# Little help with "reptile dysfunction"



## Bees (Jan 28, 2003)

pragmatic_lee said:


> First, I am in no way blaming my recent "issues" on the S4 lizard; however, I did notice something yesterday that raises a question.
> 
> When I first got the bow, I didn't pay any attention to the relationship between the limbs and the limb pockets. To get to the desired dw of 50 lbs, I backed each limb off the same amount, in 1/2 turn increments.
> 
> ...



if one limb isn't in the pocket like the other, that would cause the limbs to rebound and vbibrate different, It could cause arrow spray.

only thing to do is install the limbs back into the limb pockets make sure they stay seated and comence test shooting again. hopfully your arrow spary will go back down to the normal amount.


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## Spoon13 (Feb 20, 2007)

Bees said:


> if one limb isn't in the pocket like the other, that would cause the limbs to rebound and vbibrate different, It could cause arrow spray.
> 
> only thing to do is install the limbs back into the limb pockets make sure they stay seated and comence test shooting again. *hopfully your arrow spary will go back down to the normal amount*.


That right there is funny, I don't care who you are!!!


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## pragmatic_lee (Jan 19, 2008)

Spoon13 said:


> That right there is funny, I don't care who you are!!!


Quit laughing "pot stirrer". :wink:


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## Bees (Jan 28, 2003)

pragmatic_lee said:


> Quit laughing "pot stirrer". :wink:


love the avatar, I suppose this means my truck insurance will go up.


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## pragmatic_lee (Jan 19, 2008)

Bees said:


> if one limb isn't in the pocket like the other, that would cause the limbs to rebound and vbibrate different, It could cause arrow spray.
> 
> only thing to do is install the limbs back into the limb pockets make sure they stay seated and comence test shooting again. hopfully your arrow spary will go back down to the normal amount.


Thanks Bees - this really doesn't look right and "might" explain some of the issues that seemed to happen all of a sudden. I did adjust the release so it is a little tighter after realizing what was causing the occasional "spray". It seemed to be happening when my pin was falling below the X - in an attempt to raise it, I was applying extra tension to the bow (pushing it up), thus causing the release to fire.

Maybe it's time to invest in a good scale AND install the set screws at JL suggested. I really believe I would have noticed this difference before had it always been that way.


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## Bees (Jan 28, 2003)

pragmatic_lee said:


> Thanks Bees - this really doesn't look right and "might" explain some of the issues that seemed to happen all of a sudden. I did adjust the release so it is a little tighter after realizing what was causing the occasional "spray". It seemed to be happening when my pin was falling below the X - in an attempt to raise it, I was applying extra tension to the bow (pushing it up), thus causing the release to fire.
> 
> Maybe it's time to invest in a good scale AND install the set screws at JL suggested. I really believe I would have noticed this difference before had it always been that way.


do you have a picture of the adnormality?
Can you get Jarlicker to look at it or Mac both would know what to do.


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## Spoon13 (Feb 20, 2007)

pragmatic_lee said:


> Quit laughing "pot stirrer". :wink:


Sorry, I can't help myself.


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## psargeant (Aug 1, 2004)

Both my s4's have slightly un-even tiller on the limbs when they are backed out the same. They shoot well that way so I have never been worried about it. Seeing that yours is the same makes me suspicious.

I suspect you have had a limb bolt backing out on you a little bit. I would bottom both limbs out and back them off the same amount to get your draw weight. Once you do, take measurements of the top limb tiller, bottom limb tiller and brace height. That way if it happens again you can put things back the way they're supposed to be in no time...


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## south-paaw (Jul 3, 2006)

Bees said:


> if one limb isn't in the pocket like the other, that would cause the limbs to rebound and vbibrate different, It could cause arrow spray.
> 
> only thing to do is install the limbs back into the limb pockets make sure they stay seated and comence test shooting again. hopfully your arrow spary will go back down to the normal amount.


ohhhhhh Bees... you have a _way _with words....and no decoder ring 

needed...:lol::lol::lol:


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## pragmatic_lee (Jan 19, 2008)

Will get pictures up a little later this morning - got a different kind of reptile around my neck right now at work (alligator).


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## thenson (Mar 23, 2004)

This post has to win "Title of the Year"...


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## nccrutch (Feb 26, 2003)

Sounds like PSE kharma. This is what happens when you turn your back on the "MOJO":wink:


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## Bees (Jan 28, 2003)

pragmatic_lee said:


> Will get pictures up a little later this morning - got a different kind of reptile around my neck right now at work (alligator).


when your up to your butt in alligators it is hard to remember that your mission was to drain the swamp..


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## pragmatic_lee (Jan 19, 2008)

nccrutch said:


> Sounds like PSE kharma. This is what happens when you turn your back on the "MOJO":wink:


I was wondering when you were going to chime in. :wink: MOJO is still in the stable!



Bees said:


> when your up to your butt in alligators it is hard to remember that your mission was to drain the swamp..


You got that right! Trying to sort thru 19535 client posts for Sept and figure out why 6 of them were duplicated. These posts can be entered via either the web or telephone and can be edited via the web.


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## IGluIt4U (Sep 22, 2004)

psargeant said:


> Both my s4's have slightly un-even tiller on the limbs when they are backed out the same. They shoot well that way so I have never been worried about it. Seeing that yours is the same makes me suspicious.


All of my Martins have had uneven tiller when backed out the same.. I set the tiller and almost always have had to back out the lower more to get even tiller on both ends.. 

As mentioned, a 25 cent set screw (splurge and get two, one for each barrel nut) will do the trick for sure.. Bet that Mojo has a couple that would screw right in.. my old Primos has em. :wink: :thumb:


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## SCarson (Apr 13, 2008)

pragmatic_lee said:


> I was wondering when you were going to chime in. :wink: MOJO is still in the stable!
> 
> 
> 
> You got that right! Trying to sort thru 19535 client posts for Sept and figure out *why 6 of them were duplicated*. These posts can be entered via either the web or telephone and can be edited via the web.


Impatient user error!!!


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## pragmatic_lee (Jan 19, 2008)

SCarson said:


> Impatient user error!!!


You may be on to something - these are home care and hospice visit records for "patients"


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## ishootmathews (Sep 9, 2008)

*huh...*

I know I'm the new guy but I've gotta say ... I've never had any issues like this on my MATHEWS... just sayin is all! :icon_jokercolor:


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## pragmatic_lee (Jan 19, 2008)

ishootmathews said:


> I know I'm the new guy but I've gotta say ... I've never had any issues like this on my MATHEWS... just sayin is all! :icon_jokercolor:


Well, just wait until you actually start shooting it instead of just talking about it. :wink:


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## ishootmathews (Sep 9, 2008)

*Shootin*

I'm Finally shooting one of my two. My Icon is all set up and I shot this past weekend. waiting on some stuff for the Conquest 3, that ones gonna be my indoor setup for now.:darkbeer:

I shot with a friend at his place for about 2 hours and did "ok"... then came home and decided to fling a few at my target... first 4 arrows were touchin each other. Told him this week he's comin to MY place! lol


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## Spoon13 (Feb 20, 2007)

ishootmathews said:


> I'm Finally shooting one of my two. My Icon is all set up and I shot this past weekend. waiting on some stuff for the Conquest 3, that ones gonna be my indoor setup for now.:darkbeer:
> 
> I shot with a friend at his place for about 2 hours and did "ok"... then came home and decided to fling a few at my target... first 4 arrows were touchin each other. Told him this week he's comin to MY place! lol


Congrats on getting started.

However, a Mathews can get bumfuttled just like any other bow. It's just only half as bad.:wink:


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## pragmatic_lee (Jan 19, 2008)

Well :doh: after using a "proper measuring device" instead of my thumb against an arrow, I see that the tiller "is" off approx. the width of the string.

Will adjust for that and if it still doesn't look correct, I'll do as Sarge suggested and bottom out both, then back into the desired draw weight.


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## jarlicker (Jul 29, 2002)

Hey here is an amazing idea. Why not stop all your worrying and do the smart simple thing. You can skewer two reptiles with one stick.
Just add a full turn on your upper limb bolt. Retie you nocking point and d-loop.
That will put your limbs back the way they normally are if you really backed them out evenly. The top limb on Martin bows are always one full turn tighter than even tiller when cranked down. You will be amazed with that tiller adjustment you my not have probles falling out the bottom of the dot.
Tiller adjustment is usually just a temperary band aid for some poor form issues you may be having. If you really want the sight to stop dropping out the bottom fix your form issues.

Please also remember what jarlicker told you about your bow wrist.
Keep your wrist down. Any movement of your wrist rising up is going to force your sight or bow downwards. Hence most likely the real reason you are having trouble keeping your dot on the spot while aiming.
Any loss in good bone to bone alinemnt is going to show up in sight movement.
Causes of your sight falling out the bottom could be -

Bow wrist rising up while thinking you are applying back tension.

Draw length too long which cause your bow wrist to rise up while you think you while you are applying back tension.
Both of these issues may be caused by you pushing the bow or over stretching you T Form.

Bow shounder collapsing - causing you to drop your arm. Maintain good bone to bone alinement.
Creeping - not maintain good consistant back tention while aiming. or both at once.
Both of these issues can be associated with you trying to relax.
Like I have stated before one of the hardess things in archery to master is relaxing while applying back tention. You need to maintain that good bone to bone alignment in order to be successful relaxing your muscles. Good skeletal alinement will keep you from creeping. Relaxed application of back tension will execute the shot.

Moving your head backwards while appling back tension. Causes dot to drop out center of the peep usually has some side to side errors associated with it.
Keep your head still. Stop tensing up. Stay in your anchor nice and tight.

Not touching the string on your nose or face the same exact way each and every time.


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## blondstar (Aug 15, 2006)

Here is a thought, are the limbs the right deflection?? Are they the same letter and number top and bottom? Only reason I am saying this is because this happen to me with my Slayer.
Are you getting a even tiller when the limbs are bottomed out? 
Have you tried a cable adjustment?

I am sure Jarlicker, Sarge and Mac have looked into this but you need more advice to make it more complicated:wink:


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## pragmatic_lee (Jan 19, 2008)

jarlicker said:


> Hey here is an amazing idea. Why not stop all your worrying and do the smart simple thing. You can skewer two reptiles with one stick.
> 
> Not worried - it was just an observation and question on if the limb bolt could have actually backed out and if so, if the set screws would prevent it from happening again.
> 
> ...


The dropping out of the target seems to have gone away as quick as it appeared. I've been starting AND ending every practice session this week with at least 15-20 blank bale shots. This seems to be helping in that I start each practice session of "target shots" with a refreshed mental image of what a true BT release feels like. By doing the same thing after the practice session, I go away with this same mental image.

Everyone has always said to get into your anchor and come down on the target vs. trying to get on target while getting into your anchor. Try as I might, I always seemed to be below the target by the time I got into my anchor. The minor adjustment in DL seems to have FIXED that. Of course changing the DL also meant that my peep had to be adjusted. A very slight adjustment in the peep location and going 1 size smaller combined with the shorter DL seems to make everything feel more natural AND helps in being able to relax.

Of course saying all of this and actually executing a good shot (over and over) are 2 different things. Hopefully some time this afternoon on the range vs. backyard will show some positive results.

I fully realize that I seem to be worrying a lot about "small stuff", but please remember, I don't have years of experience behind me. I went from having NEVER shot a bow to shooting in the State finals in less than 8 months and that was after being self-taught by a very bad teacher.

I'm simply trying to start over. All your input is GREATLY appreciated - just be patient with this old man. :wink:


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## psargeant (Aug 1, 2004)

pragmatic_lee said:


> The dropping out of the target seems to have gone away as quick as it appeared. I've been starting AND ending every practice session this week with at least 15-20 blank bale shots. This seems to be helping in that I start each practice session of "target shots" with a refreshed mental image of what a true BT release feels like. By doing the same thing after the practice session, I go away with this same mental image.
> 
> Everyone has always said to get into your anchor and come down on the target vs. trying to get on target while getting into your anchor. Try as I might, I always seemed to be below the target by the time I got into my anchor. The minor adjustment in DL seems to have FIXED that. Of course changing the DL also meant that my peep had to be adjusted. A very slight adjustment in the peep location and going 1 size smaller combined with the shorter DL seems to make everything feel more natural AND helps in being able to relax.
> 
> ...


Prag...I think what you are not hearing here is...with a S4...they normall have, and shoot better with the tiller off...put the limbs back at the same nuimber of turns from bottomed out and you'll be better off, even thought the tiller won't be the same...the rest of your thoughts sound about right...

Imagine how hard it would be if you had to un-learn 20 years of bad habits...


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## swerve (Jun 5, 2005)

Sarge is right Lee. Same number of turns on each limb and the bow will hold better.

A good test for your DL. Once you think your close on your DL keep these things in mind for the fine tune. If your dot moves around slow but you can never really get it to stop, your DL is a little to long. Probably 1/2 to 1 twist in each end of the shoot string. If your dot holds really steady for a few seconds, but when it moves the dot moves rapid and jerky. Holds hard and then flies completely out of the spot and then back to holding hard, your DL is short by a little. 1/2 to 1 twist on each of the cables should put it close.

One thing that I have found by trial and error is that, until my DL is exactly where I want it, all other tuning is absolutely useless. If you change your DL any, it changes your nocking point, anchor point, relationship to your rest, almost everything that you are tuning for. Get your DL right and then start tuning always keeping that DL.


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## pragmatic_lee (Jan 19, 2008)

swerve said:


> Sarge is right Lee. Same number of turns on each limb and the bow will hold better.
> 
> A good test for your DL. Once you think your close on your DL keep these things in mind for the fine tune. If your dot moves around slow but you can never really get it to stop, your DL is a little to long. Probably 1/2 to 1 twist in each end of the shoot string. If your dot holds really steady for a few seconds, but when it moves the dot moves rapid and jerky. Holds hard and then flies completely out of the spot and then back to holding hard, your DL is short by a little. 1/2 to 1 twist on each of the cables should put it close.
> 
> One thing that I have found by trial and error is that, until my DL is exactly where I want it, all other tuning is absolutely useless. If you change your DL any, it changes your nocking point, anchor point, relationship to your rest, almost everything that you are tuning for. Get your DL right and then start tuning always keeping that DL.


Thanks,
Testing different draw lengths is one of the nice things about the S4 - simply move the screws. If it's not raining tomorrow, I plan to try taking out another 1/2" and shoot that for a while.


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## swerve (Jun 5, 2005)

pragmatic_lee said:


> Thanks,
> Testing different draw lengths is one of the nice things about the S4 - simply move the screws. If it's not raining tomorrow, I plan to try taking out another 1/2" and shoot that for a while.


Actually you can get it even closer than a 1/2". My actual DL is 28 3/8". 

Maybe a bit anal but that's where most of my bows hold the best.


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## Bees (Jan 28, 2003)

I hope it isn't catchy..


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## pragmatic_lee (Jan 19, 2008)

Bees, you got way too much time on your hands. 

Actually the reptile functioned pretty good tonight. Shot my best indoor total. Remember, I only shot indoor a few times before moving to Field back in the spring. Shot a 281 tonight. And what freaks me out is that I dropped 7 of those 19 points in just 3 arrows (2 eights and 1 seven).

Still shooting the ACCs - there were several shots were the Fatboys would have been beneficial, but going to wait till after 11/01 to set up for them.


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## pragmatic_lee (Jan 19, 2008)

Well, well - seems Bees is now a celebrity 

Friday 10/17/2008 a new movie was released:
"The Secret Life of Bees"

Sure sounds like a "chic flick" to me. :wink:

http://movies.msn.com/movies/movie/the-secret-life-of-bees/


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## Bees (Jan 28, 2003)

pragmatic_lee said:


> Well, well - seems Bees is now a celebrity
> 
> Friday 10/17/2008 a new movie was released:
> "The Secret Life of Bees"
> ...


Ok Prag get back in your cage..


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## pragmatic_lee (Jan 19, 2008)

Bees said:


> Ok Prag get back in your cage..


It's going to take more than that "box" to cage me and the lizard! :tongue:


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## swerve (Jun 5, 2005)

pragmatic_lee said:


> It's going to take more than that "box" to cage me and the lizard! :tongue:


I take it that you and the bling are beginning to sing

Ain't harmony fun. 

Now you just got to put a little Martin in your daughter's life and all will be well.


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## pragmatic_lee (Jan 19, 2008)

swerve said:


> I take it that you and the bling are beginning to sing
> 
> Ain't harmony fun.
> 
> Now you just got to put a little Martin in your daughter's life and all will be well.


Yep, things started coming together much better last evening once I got my eyes (and sight) adjusted to the indoor light. 

And there's a Martin Leopard waiting in the wings for the daughter. :wink:


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## jarlicker (Jul 29, 2002)

Found out several little prag facts last night. there are seven generations of them lizzards roaming that little food plot in eastern cacalacky.

The girl loves her diddy.

She has amazing tolerance for archers picking on the ole man.

She has the same genetic defects as Lee. Focuses on the irrelavant too much. Maybe easily distracted. To lazy to walk next door to say hi. Just send an email. These people just cant score higher than a five ring, even on a Vegas target.

Most important the two of them have great taste atthe dinner table. They ordered the same meal as me.


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## pragmatic_lee (Jan 19, 2008)

..



jarlicker said:


> Found out several little prag facts last night. there are seven generations of them lizzards roaming that little food plot in eastern cacalacky.
> 
> Ah, we don't actually live that long, but yes, Alcy is the 8th generation to live on this land.
> 
> ...


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## pennysdad (Sep 26, 2004)

*Movie??*

I have seen the movie adds. "The secret lives of Bee's" I can't believe it's not XXX rated! I would have bet on some sort of kinky porn?? On the other hand though?? Kinky is just a word!! LOL!!!


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## Bees (Jan 28, 2003)

pennysdad said:


> I have seen the movie adds. "The secret lives of Bee's" I can't believe it's not XXX rated! I would have bet on some sort of kinky porn?? On the other hand though?? Kinky is just a word!! LOL!!!



In the secret world of Bees everyone is a super hero

like Blondstar!


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## SCarson (Apr 13, 2008)

pragmatic_lee said:


> Yep - I'm the best "diddy" she has.


Guess we gotta start calling him P-diddy now.


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