# My Experience At Rick Welch's Shooting School



## jasonsmeg (Dec 6, 2007)

I recently returned from Rick Welch's Instinctive shooting school. Even though I paid $500, I got $1,000 worth of knowledge. Not to mention a 51 point improvement in my 3D accuracy, that was in 2 days! If you are thinking about attending a shooting school, You owe it to yourself to seriously research Rick Welch. 
Rick is a genuine guy who has a wealth of knowledge wanting to share his passion with others who have an opened mind. His technique may not be for everyone; but for those who would like to learn a proven method, I would encourage others to give him a call. 

I am so confident in Rick's ability to teach anyone who is open minded, I will issue this public challenge. If you complete Rick Welch's shooting school, & you're not shootng better than when you arrived I will personally refund your $500. 

Please feel free to contact me with any questions, regarding Rick's school. Jason Turley. 304-993-8388


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## BowmanJay (Jan 1, 2007)

Hey Jason thanks for sharing! All I see is video of folks shooting talking about him, I would love to see dome discussion of what he teaches and how it differs from what you were doing? Im not asking for him to give away his secrets that he charges for, but the same old video of shot after shot gets old. Can you tells us a bit of how you changed your shooting and how you improved?

Thanks....


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

Congrats! Feels good to shoot accurately don't it?!

Ray :wink:


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## steve morley (Dec 24, 2005)

jasonsmeg said:


> I recently returned from Rick Welch's Instinctive shooting school. Even though I paid $500, I got $1,000 worth of knowledge.
> 
> I am so confident in Rick's ability to teach anyone who is open minded, I will issue this public challenge. If you complete Rick Welch's shooting school, & you're not shootng better than when you arrived I will personally refund your $500.


Jason nicely put, I would say the knowledge you gained is priceless.

I'm 100% sure Ricky couldn't improve my game as I've already peaked at my ability so it would be an easy $500 

good luck and thanks for sharing :thumbs_up


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## Warbow (Apr 18, 2006)

jasonsmeg said:


> I recently returned from Rick Welch's Instinctive shooting school. Even though I paid $500, I got $1,000 worth of knowledge. Not to mention a 51 point improvement in my 3D accuracy, that was in 2 days! If you are thinking about attending a shooting school, You owe it to yourself to seriously research Rick Welch.
> Rick is a genuine guy who has a wealth of knowledge wanting to share his passion with others who have an opened mind. His technique may not be for everyone; but for those who would like to learn a proven method, I would encourage others to give him a call.
> 
> I am so confident in Rick's ability to teach anyone who is open minded, I will issue this public challenge. If you complete Rick Welch's shooting school, & you're not shootng better than when you arrived I will personally refund your $500.
> ...


Sounds like a fine class and a generous and excellent offer for anybody interested in Rick's shooting school.

As an aside, aren't you video production/hunting partner to Waiting4Fall (who filmed a DVD for Rick, the YouTube sample you posted, and regularly posts fawning testimonials about Rick all over the internet)?

http://www.archerytalk.com/vb//showpost.php?p=7316625&postcount=1


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## Lil Okie (Mar 25, 2008)

Glad to hear you liked it Jason.. Congrats


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## waiting4fall (Sep 20, 2007)

Warbow said:


> Sounds like a fine class and a generous and excellent offer for anybody interested in Rick's shooting school.
> 
> As an aside, aren't you video production/hunting partner to Waiting4Fall (who filmed a DVD for Rick, the YouTube sample you posted, and regularly posts fawning testimonials about Rick all over the internet)?
> 
> http://www.archerytalk.com/vb//showpost.php?p=7316625&postcount=1


W.B. yes Jason's my best friend, absolutely. I'm not saying you are, but don't rain on his parade. This is almost all I've heard about since he got home, his experience @ Rick's school. He's so excited with how good he's shooting I'm afraid he's going to have a flippin stroke! He averaged 9.1 per target his second day w/ Rick. We did some practice this evening, he's actually whipping me like, well it's embarrassing! 

He's jacked up, let him enjoy his amazing improvement. He's just excited & wants to share.


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## Warbow (Apr 18, 2006)

*Hmm...*

I can understand somebody wanting to share the good news. People do it all the time, though Dave does it more than many.

I see you posted this exact same thread, word for word, at least two other sites:

http://leatherwall.BOWSITE.COM/TF/lw/thread2.cfm?forum=23&threadid=209452&messages=1&CATEGORY=5

and

http://tradgang.com/noncgi/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=6;t=005388#000000

Could you tell us more about why you posted this to so many archery web forums? Your offer, especially considering how expensive it could be for you to pony up thousands of dollars as opposed to Rick who would merely be offering a refunds rather than paying out of pocket, sounds more like one that would come from a paid PR person/marketer rather than a disinterested individual. I'm wondering if a) you have any connection with Rick (directly or indirectly, explicit or merely implied) to promote his school, or, if not, b) if you have really thought through the financial risk of your offer (even if you have confidence in Rick's teaching ability) given how you are heavily promoting it all over the web.


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## jasonsmeg (Dec 6, 2007)

Warbow said:


> Sounds like a fine class and a generous and excellent offer for anybody interested in Rick's shooting school.
> 
> As an aside, aren't you video production/hunting partner to Waiting4Fall (who filmed a DVD for Rick, the YouTube sample you posted, and regularly posts fawning testimonials about Rick all over the internet)?
> 
> http://www.archerytalk.com/vb//showpost.php?p=7316625&postcount=1


Hey there, why yes I am best friends with Dave(Waiting4Fall) who helps Rick for FREE. Yes, Dave regularly posts about his friend Rick Welch and looks up to Rick very much, and wants to share his interest with others. I've got to admit, I got a little tired of hearing how Rick was so impressive; almost to a point that I was jealous of all the Rick stuff. Dave got me into shooting a recurve, and has always whooped up on me as I've looked up to him for his passion for the sport. I thought that I would consider going to this Rick Welch shooting school, cause Dave talked about how it would help me. I finally decided to take the plunge and say what the heck, so I saved an extra $500 to make the trip to Arkansas. I can honestly say as a man of my word, that I am a changed man with my recurve. I would love for you to take me up on my suggestion, that I will refund your $500 if you don't absolutely enjoy Rick Welch's school, and come away a better shot. Feel free to give me a call and I will answer any questions you may have. Sincerely, Jason Turley 304-993-8388


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## Warbow (Apr 18, 2006)

jasonsmeg said:


> I've got to admit, I got a little tired of hearing how Rick was so impressive; almost to a point that I was jealous of all the Rick stuff. Dave got me into shooting a recurve, and has always whooped up on me as I've looked up to him for his passion for the sport. I thought that I would consider going to this Rick Welch shooting school, cause Dave talked about how it would help me.


Well, there's a strong motivation I can definitely picture.  I'm glad you had such a great experience.

So, can you fill us in on details of what Rick taught and how, just so we get a better idea? While it is nice of you to offer to talk in person on the phone, I'd rather see your info posted in the forum, where everybody can benefit by it and so your posts don't come off as cagey or close to the vest. Also, the offer of a phone call rather than just posting details of your experience in the forum comes off more like something a marketer/salesperson would offer (to get leads and a chance to persuade in person) rather than a disinterested party. And I note that you mention that *Dave* helps Rick for free (by which I assume you mean no cash), but you haven't mentioned whether *you* have any direct or indirect ties to Rick, explicit or implicit. It comes off as a little evasive, IMO, regardless of whether you mean to do so.


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## I'm Not Ted (Feb 12, 2009)




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## waiting4fall (Sep 20, 2007)

From: Warbow 
Date: 02-Jun-10 





I've heard nothing but good things about Rick's School, but, admittedly, what I have heard has come entirely from Rick's biggest fan, Dave Mullins, who is a buddy of the poster of this thread. 
This same thread/OP has also been posted to Trad Gang and Archery Talk, word for word. 


WARBOW, 

I'm a bit suprised at you falsely accusing me of something that I've not done.
These posts are all Turley's, plain & simple. Now as for you naming me in anything, you are getting close to crossing the line. So I will ask you politely, once, to please NEVER FALSELY ACCUSE ME EVER AGAIN. You are forgiven, as I've enjoyed chatting w/ you over the last couple of days. I'm letting it slide, friend, this time.- Dave Mullins.


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## jasonsmeg (Dec 6, 2007)

Warbow said:


> Well, there's a strong motivation I can definitely picture.  I'm glad you had such a great experience.
> 
> So, can you fill us in on details of what Rick taught and how, just so we get a better idea? While it is nice of you to offer to talk in person on the phone, I'd rather see your info posted in the forum, where everybody can benefit by it and so your posts don't come off as cagey or close to the vest. Also, the offer of a phone call rather than just posting details of your experience in the forum comes off more like something a marketer/salesperson would offer (to get leads and a chance to persuade in person) rather than a disinterested party. And I note that you mention that *Dave* helps Rick for free (by which I assume you mean no cash), but you haven't mentioned whether *you* have any direct or indirect ties to Rick, explicit or implicit. It comes off as a little evasive, IMO, regardless of whether you mean to do so.


Firstly, I absolutely have no ties with Rick other than he is a new friend for life that I will be looking up to in the future, not only as traditional archer, but as a genuinely good man. As for Dave, he does not work for money or goods--just trying to help a friend and others willing to learn a way to shoot. I know he may go overboard at times trying to tell people about Rick, but all he is truly trying to do is help a friend. As a new traditional archer, I can try to share some of what I learned with others on here with hopes that it could help. Will do below in my next Post.:thumbs_up


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## Warbow (Apr 18, 2006)

waiting4fall said:


> From: Warbow
> Date: 02-Jun-10
> 
> 
> ...


Dave, don't falsely accuse me of slander. You've jumped to conclusions in your haste.

I have, to my knowledge, never slandered you. Nor have I claimed, that you are Turley. Nor do I think you are. Calling you a "buddy" of Jason (a fact) is not a false accusation. The statement you have quoted (from the **Leatherwall**) refers to the fact that everything I've have heard about Rick's school in the **past** has come from you--a point I'll happily clarify over at **Leatherwall** where you should have posted your complaint about what I wrote at the **Leatherwall**.


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## Warbow (Apr 18, 2006)

jasonsmeg said:


> Firstly, I absolutely have no ties with Rick other than he is a new friend for life that I will be looking up to in the future, not only as traditional archer, but as a genuinely good man. As for Dave, he does not work for money or goods--just trying to help a fr


Thanks. So, uh, why didn't you just say so a number of posts ago?


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## jasonsmeg (Dec 6, 2007)

*What I learned*

When I arrived he helped me set up my bow and shared what arrows he recommended with my new bow. We shot a few shots, watching my technique that I had previously tried to copy of him from the videos I had of Rick. He adjusted my side plate, because I was consistently shooting right of where I was looking. Once I was dialed in to the best of my old ability. We shot dozens of arrows, one at a time, no groups-while he analyzed my overall form. We discovered my biggest problem is that I was not having a consistent anchor, and I was not having proper back tension. I was actually drawing my bow using my arm, and not my shoulder. He gave me instruction on how to properly engage my shoulder/back muscles, while having a consistent anchor with my feather on my nose--He adjusted my feather forward I believe as I gained over an inch on my draw length once I actually was drawing back correctly. He focused on the mental aspects of really focusing on the target, and picking a specific spot. I learned how to relax and trust my bow arm and let it go where it wants. Once I felt confident of my new drawing method, we had a blast shooting the awesome 3D range. My score improved drastically, and I came away with more confidence than before. Rick made learning fun. I have practiced quite a bit since I've gotten home, and even shot with Dave, only to whoop up on him now!! :wink:


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## waiting4fall (Sep 20, 2007)

Well, I've said my peace. I'm not going down this road, there are too many other positive things to focus upon. As I said before, all is forgiven. Have a pleasant evening.


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## Warbow (Apr 18, 2006)

waiting4fall said:


> Well, I've said my peace. I'm not going down this road, there are too many other positive things to focus upon. As I said before, all is forgiven. Have a pleasant evening.


There is nothing for you to forgive. I didn't slander you, but you did slander me with your false accusation of slander--an accusation whose falsity is sufficiently obvious that I can't say I'm concerned about it or your "forgiveness" of something I never did.

In any case, I'm glad that you and Jason have such good experiences with Rick's Shooting School, and to have the nature of your association with him clarified.

I look forward to hearing from more of his students and I hope you and Jason will give us some concrete examples of what Rick teaches and how [EDIT: which I see he's done  ). And, given that Jason says he has no ties to Rick, I'm impressed with the generosity and confidence of his offer.


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## steve morley (Dec 24, 2005)

jasonsmeg said:


> I know he may go overboard at times trying to tell people about Rick, but all he is truly trying to do is help a friend. As a new traditional archer, I can try to share some of what I learned with others on here with hopes that it could help.


This I think is the problem, all we ever see is the same video clips and never any REAL info about the man Ricky, I think people are interested in Ricky but showing the same clips over and over and just saying it will change your shooting isn't enough, one of the reasons I enjoyed Daves last post, it was about his shooting and how it's developing for him.

Give us something we can get our teeth into, tell us what you were doing form wise before and after Rickys training, maybe any different adjustments you had to adapt to make Ricky's method work for you.

maybe some info on Rickys development into a top shooter (we all started from humble beginings) and info about his shooting setup, I know he uses his own Bows but what about arrows, rest, Glove\Tab etc etc

Thanks:smile:


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

steve morley said:


> This I think is the problem, all we ever see is the same video clips and never any REAL info about the man Ricky, I think people are interested in Ricky but showing the same clips over and over and just saying it will change your shooting isn't enough, one of the reasons I enjoyed Daves last post, it was about his shooting and how it's developing for him.
> 
> Give us something we can get our teeth into, tell us what you were doing form wise before and after Rickys training, maybe any different adjustments you had to adapt to make Ricky's method work for you.
> 
> ...


Ditto! Ditto! Ditto!

Ray :wink:


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

jasonmeg and waiting4fall,

I totally understand wanting to help a friend out...especially one that has helped out sooo many archers improve their shooting...but it really does begin to cross the line when the sharing of these videos become more like advertisements rather than archers openly sharing technique.

Take Tony (Viper) as an example. He could just as easily post pictures of his book all over the internet over and over again without sharing his knowledge...but he doesn't. He shares his knowledge openly and in detail...which is far more useful than just plastering videos all over the internet.

I applaud anyone, who takes the time to share what they've learned...so thank you for those of you who have shared in detail what you learned in Rick's school.

I really do enjoy the videos...but it does begin to get old when it's from the same people over and over again that have a direct connection with Rick while trying to promote his school when they don't usually give out details about what they learned.

Ray :wink:


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## jasonsmeg (Dec 6, 2007)

steve morley said:


> This I think is the problem, all we ever see is the same video clips and never any REAL info about the man Ricky, I think people are interested in Ricky but showing the same clips over and over and just saying it will change your shooting isn't enough, one of the reasons I enjoyed Daves last post, it was about his shooting and how it's developing for him.
> 
> Give us something we can get our teeth into, tell us what you were doing form wise before and after Rickys training, maybe any different adjustments you had to adapt to make Ricky's method work for you.
> 
> ...


I understand where your coming from, and can tell you that Dave has even got on my nerves a couple of times for all the Rick stuff I get where he is coming from after I personally spent the weekend with Rick. I've met a lot of nice people since I started shooting, but Rick is truly one person that I think will have a lasting impression on me. He is a very simple person, humble, funny at times, and always positive. I noticed Rick like to shoot a Neet shooting glove that has fine hairs on it, he says he can feel the string really good with it. He likes using the Gold Tip arrows, I believe 3555 or 500's. I'll try to answer any question, but bare with me cause I'm new to this sport:thumbs_up


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

jasonsmeg said:


> I understand where your coming from, and can tell you that Dave has even got on my nerves a couple of times for all the Rick stuff I get where he is coming from after I personally spent the weekend with Rick. I've met a lot of nice people since I started shooting, but Rick is truly one person that I think will have a lasting impression on me. He is a very simple person, humble, funny at times, and always positive. I noticed Rick like to shoot a Neet shooting glove that has fine hairs on it, he says he can feel the string really good with it. He likes using the Gold Tip arrows, I believe 3555 or 500's. I'll try to answer any question, but bare with me cause I'm new to this sport:thumbs_up


:thumbs_up:thumbs_up

Ray :wink:


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## Sanford (Jan 26, 2009)

BLACK WOLF said:


> Take Tony (Viper) as an example. He could just as easily post pictures of his book all over the internet over and over again without sharing his knowledge...but he doesn't. He shares his knowledge openly and in detail...which is far more useful than just plastering videos all over the internet.
> Ray :wink:


There's nothing in the book reserved for a fee. Viper regularly shares what he knows will help others, openly and freely. That's "helping others". If RW wants to come in here and help out, that will earn my respect. So far, the RW stuff posted here is just promotion couched as helping others.


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## jasonsmeg (Dec 6, 2007)

Sanford said:


> There's nothing in the book reserved for a fee. Viper regularly shares what he knows will help others, openly and freely. That's "helping others". If RW wants to come in here and help out, that will earn my respect. So far, the RW stuff posted here is just promotion couched as helping others.


Rick Welch regulary shares what he know with others as well, just not on here. I don't get that he must get on here and post regulary to earn your respect? Everyone is different, and I'm not sure if Rick is the computer type to get on here all the time, not because he doesn't want to help, but because he may not have the time. Rick's strength, is hands on teaching, or talking in person. As far as I know, his # is on his website and anyone can contact him anytime they wish. I agree that Viper does regularly share good stuff on here and is always helping others--I enjoy reading his posts as well. Give Rick a call if you want:thumbs_up


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## Sanford (Jan 26, 2009)

jasonsmeg said:


> As far as I know, his # is on his website and anyone can contact him anytime they wish.


He advertises here pretty regular, as well, just in the wrong forum.:wink:


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## Gurn (Jul 25, 2007)

Jason. I have often been interested in his teaching. 
I have a few questions.
In order to shoot his style, will I have to quit canting? Also will I have to switch to 3 under? I dont feel right 3 under, or not having the option of canting. I've shot for a while, and dont want to throw the baby out with the bath water so to speak. 
Thanks


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## D Harvey (Oct 14, 2007)

I'm scheduled to go to Ricks school in October. I've never shot traditional very well... I've got nothing to lose. Way I see it $500 isn't much for two days of one on one training from someone with Ricks credentials. Heck I've spent way more than $500 on books, videos and lost and broken arrows.
Not to mention frustration. I'm looking forward to the school.


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## waiting4fall (Sep 20, 2007)

Sanford said:


> There's nothing in the book reserved for a fee. Viper regularly shares what he knows will help others, openly and freely. That's "helping others". If RW wants to come in here and help out, that will earn my respect. So far, the RW stuff posted here is just promotion couched as helping others.


You may not be aware that such a place already exists, where Rick directly interacts online with people & directly answers questions on a fairly regular basis. Just please keep in mind this is the ONLY place online, besides an email, that Rick will answer ANY question a person may have for him. I created this for trad archers & Rick, specifically as a destination of solutions for folks who want help. Have a great day.- Dave Mullins.

http://theaccuracyfactory.forumotion.net/login.forum?connexion


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## Sanford (Jan 26, 2009)

waiting4fall said:


> You may not be aware that such a place already exists, where Rick directly interacts online with people & directly answers questions on a fairly regular basis. Just please keep in mind this is the ONLY place online, besides an email, that Rick will answer ANY question a person may have for him. I created this for trad archers & Rick, specifically as a destination of solutions for folks who want help. Have a great day.- Dave Mullins.
> 
> http://theaccuracyfactory.forumotion.net/login.forum?connexion


And he is always welcome to discuss his techniques here. I would enthusiastically welcome it, and I could always learn something. 

Pumps for his $500 school seem to be the only info that regularly *slips* from that reserved site where the RW stuff is discussed. :wink:


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## Warbow (Apr 18, 2006)

waiting4fall said:


> You may not be aware that such a place already exists, where Rick directly interacts online with people & directly answers questions on a fairly regular basis. Just please keep in mind this is the ONLY place online, besides an email, that Rick will answer ANY question a person may have for him. I created this for trad archers & Rick, specifically as a destination of solutions for folks who want help. Have a great day.- Dave Mullins.
> 
> http://theaccuracyfactory.forumotion.net/login.forum?connexion


Ah, the forum you created where people can't even browse without signing up? Can you explain why it is locked down like that? There doesn't seem to be any sound reason why folks shouldn't be able to _browse_ the forum, as they can on AT, Trad Gang, Trad Talk, the Leatherwall and pretty much every other internet forum, without signing up. What is with the secrecy and playing everything so close to the vest? If Rick is as open and helpful as you say, password locking his forum to prevent browsing seems an anathema to what you describe as his normal personality. Was it your idea or his to lock people out?


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## MOC (Jul 4, 2003)

Don't sweat "Warbow". Guy never posts unless he thinks he can stir the pot. Some folks just go through life looking for trouble. Who knows why?

Sounds like you enjoyed the class, time and cash well spent.


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## Warbow (Apr 18, 2006)

MOC said:


> Don't sweat "Warbow". Guy never posts unless he thinks he can stir the pot. Some folks just go through life looking for trouble. Who knows why?


Nuance, MOC, nuance.

It is possible to both appreciate Jason's experience and yet still wonder about the over the top commercial appearance of his triple post, especially given his very commercial sounding 100% money back offer. I'd say it is completely valid to wonder whether it was a deliberate marketing campaign or not rather than a spontaneous enthusiastic post by a disinterested party. And I'm not the only one who wondered.

And the fact is that it is a marketing post of a kind. Jason is deliberately promoting the school as his "money back" offer proves, but that isn't automatically a bad thing. We all have used products and services that we think are great and deserve more recognition and would benefit people who use them. Jason feels that way about Rick's school. And telling people about good and bad archery products and services is one of the things forums like this are good for. But, it is also reasonable to ask if Jason's posts are entirely innocent or if they are part of a guerilla marketing campaign to sneak in unpaid advertisements for Rick's School into archery forums around the internet. Other people may suggest that credulity should be the rule, I will disagree with such a position and continue to ask legitimate questions when things seem out of place.


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## MOC (Jul 4, 2003)

Lmao.


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## trapperDave (Mar 12, 2005)

it seams to me Rick is just in it for the money. all you ever see posted is "infomercial" stuff to get you to take his course. Even the video (accuracy factory IIRC) was nothing more than an infomercial telling you to take his course.

the Bromance stuff is wearing thin too. I think you admire him a bit too much for comfort 

and Jason, sounds like your biggest problem was with tuning to start with. How much better would you have shot with tuned equipment before the course? Sounds like you was way off to start, which in itself would hinder your scores.


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## Viper1 (Aug 21, 2003)

Jason / Dave -

I really don't like getting involved in these threads, but since my name was mentioned maybe I can sum up a couple of things. The following is just MY OPINION and really has to be taken as such.

Jason, by your own posts, you basically went to Rick's "school" knowing little or nothing about shooting (correctly) and after two days of instruction you greatly improved. That's wonderful, but not unexpected - most people will improve under hands-on guidance, pretty much regardless of who's teaching (provided, of course the teacher knows what he's doing). 

The little you two have mentioned about what Rick actually teaches (anchoring, holding, some alignment and pretty basic equipment set-up etc.) seems to be very little more or possibly less than what's taught by competent (note the qualifier) level II NAA / NFAA instructors or coaches. The only difference I can see is that Rick (and you guys) mask it to appear more appealing to "bowhunters" or "trad" types. The guys who would take the exact same information as questionable if given in a "target archery" setting by an NAA or NFAA coach.

Look, I'm all for anyone who can teach and promote archery and Rick is no exception. Is it worth $500 to say a "celebrity coach" taught you how to shoot, when most instructors charge nowhere near that (or nothing) for the same information? I guess for some folks it is. In my experience a 2 day hands on seminar can expose an inexperienced shooter to new ideas or techniques. All too often those ideas and techniques are just as quickly forgotten without constant re-enforcement. That's why the better instructors require a certain time commitment from their students.

And for the record, I have to assume you guys understand that your constant plastering of infomercials sets up controversy, and while distasteful to some, does actually keep Ricky's name on top of the forum lists - which I assume is the purpose of the exercise.

Viper1 out.


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## BowmanJay (Jan 1, 2007)

Viper I agree, if you look back at the top of the post I simply asked to hear how he thought he did and what was taught. I got another stupid promotional link sent to me by waiting4fall. I am perfectly capable of finding Rick's site if that is what I was after, but it wasnt. I dont know him from a hill of beans, but it would be nice for those of us that arent "attached" to him in anyway to understand the mechanics of what you went through to improve. Again those 100's of minutes of watching shots does nothing to inform the public of whats happening...


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## JhoneilC (Aug 30, 2007)

I just signed on the Dakota Bows forum.. Interesting..
Is it possible to to change the red font on black background of the forum to something easier on the eyes?


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## Warbow (Apr 18, 2006)

JhoneilC said:


> I just signed on the Dakota Bows forum.. Interesting..
> Is it possible to to change the red font on black background of the forum to something easier on the eyes?


Red text on a black background ? Hmm... That is a trick that used to be used on high security documents to make them difficult to photocopy, since the red and black both photocopy as black--and is still used on some barcodes (doesnt't make as much sense these days in the era of cheap digital cameras, digital color adjustment and color printers). Dave wouldn't be trying to use that old trick to try to make the Rick Welch forum super secret and "unprintable" at the expense of legibility, would he? Just wondering...


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## JhoneilC (Aug 30, 2007)

> The little you two have mentioned about what Rick actually teaches (anchoring, holding, some alignment and pretty basic equipment set-up etc.) seems to be very little more or possibly less than what's taught by competent (note the qualifier) level II NAA / NFAA instructors or coaches. The only difference I can see is that Rick (and you guys) mask it to appear more appealing to "bowhunters" or "trad" types. The guys who would take the exact same information as questionable if given in a "target archery" setting by an NAA or NFAA coach.


Just a quick glance of the Rick Welch forum - there are a lot of things in there that an NAA instructor will not teach their students. (string on the finger pads for example). I am not sure if it's good or bad but it obviously works for Rick's students.:thumbs_up


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## I'm Not Ted (Feb 12, 2009)

FORUM RULES said:


> *POST COMMERCIAL THREADS IN THE MANUFACTURE’S ANNOUNCEMENTS AREA*. If you are a company promoting a product, do so in that area. *And don't try to sneak around it by having your buddies flood the General Boards with endorsing posts*. *Yeah, you know who you are.*


Just wondering, when does this come into play?


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## jasonsmeg (Dec 6, 2007)

Gurn said:


> Jason. I have often been interested in his teaching.
> I have a few questions.
> In order to shoot his style, will I have to quit canting? Also will I have to switch to 3 under? I dont feel right 3 under, or not having the option of canting. I've shot for a while, and dont want to throw the baby out with the bath water so to speak.
> Thanks


Hey there, don't want to speak for Rick, but I'm pretty sure it is ok to cant and no you do not have to switch to 3 under if you are not comfortable with it. I'm sure Rick himself would not mind answering those questions and you could give him a call. Let me know if I can tell you anything else. Thanks, Jason


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## jasonsmeg (Dec 6, 2007)

Warbow said:


> Nuance, MOC, nuance.
> 
> It is possible to both appreciate Jason's experience and yet still wonder about the over the top commercial appearance of his triple post, especially given his very commercial sounding 100% money back offer. I'd say it is completely valid to wonder whether it was a deliberate marketing campaign or not rather than a spontaneous enthusiastic post by a disinterested party. And I'm not the only one who wondered.
> 
> And the fact is that it is a marketing post of a kind. Jason is deliberately promoting the school as his "money back" offer proves, but that isn't automatically a bad thing. We all have used products and services that we think are great and deserve more recognition and would benefit people who use them. Jason feels that way about Rick's school. And telling people about good and bad archery products and services is one of the things forums like this are good for. But, it is also reasonable to ask if Jason's posts are entirely innocent or if they are part of a guerilla marketing campaign to sneak in unpaid advertisements for Rick's School into archery forums around the internet. Other people may suggest that credulity should be the rule, I will disagree with such a position and continue to ask legitimate questions when things seem out of place.


Warbow,

I want to let you know as well as everyone else out there that I by no means am offering a Guerilla marketing campaign for Rick Welch's shooting school. I am not trying to sneak any unpaid advertisement, and I can assure you Rick Welch doesn't even know I am posting about my experience at his school!! I appreciate your pessimistic views that I may be doing something wrong, and it is ok to ask if I am telling everyone about my experience to promote Rick only; but it seems as though you might be beating a dead horse with your negativity. All I wanted to do was share my thoughts and experience, as well as my video shooting and testimony at the end. If you actually take the time to watch the video and listen to my testimony at the end, and you can still tell me that I sound like an advertisement for Rick Welch, then we can talk some more. Let me know if you think I'm not genuine and honest or if I sound like a prewritten marketing ploy? I don't think so my friend. I would love for you to still take me up on my offer of attending Rick's class, with me refunding your money if you don't improve your shooting!!!


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## landrylm (Aug 9, 2009)

Like Viper, I've been fairly hesitant to comment on "any" of these threads but this one seems fairly calm so I'll jump in the pool.

Let me preface a bit of the following first. Rick's school is something I'm considering as one of my gifts to myself when I retire from the Navy in 3yrs (the other being a cruise, I just want to know what it's like to be underway and not work). $500 isn't chump change for me, heck $20 isn't chump change so I like to *know* I'm getting a certain value for my money. There's two main reasons for my choosing Rick: 1) Trophies don't win themselves, obviously he knows something about shooting. 2) He's in Arkansas and I'll be in Louisiana so travel costs won't be a big factor.

I've done about as much research as I can on the internet Rick's school and between the information available and the posts by people about the school, it is starting to make me reconsider. I've seen posts of people (other than this one) who've attended the school and have seen nothing but positive comments. 

My main concern is the secrecy that seems to surround the school. If you look at just about any course of instruction there is a laid out summary of what one could expect to be covered during the course. I haven't really seen that for Rick's other than the somewhat vague video on his site. I want to know *what* I'm going to learn. i.e. He mentions going over tuning, but what am I going to learn about tuning? That if the arrow porpoises I have a nock point issue? Because I already learned that for free. 

I actually went and signed up for the forum that was posted earlier in this thread and found more cause for concern. From the forum


> SHOOTING SCHOOL GRADUATE SUPPORT THREAD
> 
> THIS THREAD IS SPECIFICALLY, ONLY FOR SHOOTING SCHOOL GRADUTES TO POST THEIR QUESTIONS, TO RICK WELCH. IN YOUR POST, YOU MUST STATE YOUR NAME & WHEN YOU ATTENDED RICK'S SHOOTING SCHOOL. ALL QUESTIONS WILL ONLY BE ANSWERED AS A PRIVATE MESSAGE, BY RICK WELCH.


For someone who obviously places value on their time, I see no reason to "hide" the answer to a question. I would be much more understanding if the answer were in a special section of the forum that only graduates could access. A personal reply by Rick in a forum is no less a personal message by Rick. If two or more former students have the same issue, wouldn't there be much more gained by sharing information?

When I read the


> ACCURACY FACTORY GRADUATES
> 
> GRADUATES OF THE RICK WELCH SHOOTING SCHOOL, SHARE YOUR EXPERIENCES WITH THOSE WHO ARE INTERESTED IN ATTENDING RICK'S SCHOOL.


 forum, I found even less "useful" information. From the entire section I learned that: Someone was overbowed and they saw massive improvement from dropping down in weight *(again, something I learned on the internet for free)*, that one "spend 90% of the shooting time wandering his 3D course, shooting at targets at varying and uncertain distances" *(That's not actually very encouraging to hear. I'd rather put my $30+/hr to better use)* and tuned someone's equipment to them *(Again, not very useful. I want to learn how to tune regardless of the bow or arrow, not be told what I need for a particular setup. Does Rick teach me how I can use a 1916 or a 2016 arrow out of my bow or does he just set me up with a 1916? I don't want to spend $500 on a course and a year later after purchasing a new bow spend another $500 to get that bow tuned correctly either.)*

And finally I come to this. After watching almost every single one of these argumentative threads and seeing post after post about how you don't make money or what have you from Rick, I see this: *Can a brotha get a little help?! Join me in helping aacurize the ranks of the traditional archery community, one archer at a time. Spread the word, get on every trad forum you can find & tell them WE ARE HERE! It's a "win win", everyone benefits. Let's do it!!! (Dave Mullins)* Now, I know I'm a skeptic at heart but how is this a "Win Win, everyone benefits" situation? This is an honest question. How do you and I both win by placing numerous vague posts on multiple forums promoting Rick's school? If the "win" for you is the sharing of information, where is the information? If the "win" for me is garnering new information, where is the new information?

I don't think this is to much to ask of someone whom I could potentially shell out $500 to for instruction. I *WANT* to know what I'm going to learn, not just that I'll be a better shot. The next 3yrs I spend shooting and practicing will do that and I'm not paying myself $500 to do it. As it stands right now, it's really starting to come off more and more as a "Get (Rick) Rich Quick" scheme. Show me some meat that says otherwise or at least show me some value for my money.


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## landrylm (Aug 9, 2009)

jasonsmeg said:


> Let me know if you think I'm not genuine and honest or if I sound like a prewritten marketing ploy?


I do NOT think that you are not genuine and honest but I DO think that everyone of those video's sounds pre-written (or post-edited) to be the exact same. Everyone says how much they learned, how they'd been shooting for years and "Rick's system" caused them to be so much better. No one has really said what they learned though. 

If you (and by proxy Dave) are doing all of this behind Rick's back, which I don't believe based on Dave's comment in my previous post; I have to say I'm even more skeptical of Rick and attending the school now. You can damned sure bet that if I were to be knowledgeable (which Rick is) of someone speaking on my behalf, I'd pay pretty darned close attention to how it was being done and what was being said. The current method of "information sharing" being employed is certainly more damaging than good, at least from the potential of my becoming a paying customer of Rick's.


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## Gurn (Jul 25, 2007)

I dont know if the school would be worth it or not, but this a great board.
It seems folks runnin the place give the benifit of the doubt, eles this thread would have been whacked. Many boards have the man behind the curtian scannin the threads ready to play whacka-mo at every chance they get.
I think it's kinda like huntin to them.


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## Sanford (Jan 26, 2009)

jasonsmeg said:


> I would love for you to still take me up on my offer of attending Rick's class, with me refunding your money if you don't improve your shooting!!!


Can you elaborate as to the insurable interest, to the tune of $500, that you could possibly have in someone attending this course. 

Your personal belief in a guaranteed result aside, it just doesn't make sense that you would personally fork over the refund for someone dissatisfied with this course. You're saying Rick could keep the $500 and you, a completely uninterested party to said transaction, would be the one refunding money????


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## LongStick64 (Aug 29, 2009)

I think a better advertisement of Rick's teaching would have a been a video of how he improved your form. Just watching your video, in my opinion your draw elbow is way out there, not far enough back.
It's always great to hear that someone out there has the answers but sometimes you'd actually like to get a taste first.


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## Apex Predator (Jan 27, 2007)

Rick is a great shot for sure, because his credentials are impressive. I just watched his Instructional Shooting Vol 2, and didn't learn anything. I'm just a self taught kinda guy, and was looking for something different. I'm disappointed. I also bought one of his hunting videos, and was disappointed that it looked to be mostly from a game farm.

The plugs are getting way past old for me.


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## Sanford (Jan 26, 2009)

Apex Predator said:


> I just watched his Instructional Shooting Vol 2, and didn't learn anything. I'm just a self taught kinda guy, and was looking for something different. I'm disappointed.


For 20% cut, I can show you where an easy $500 is waiting!:tongue:


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## steve morley (Dec 24, 2005)

I agree with Viper and have said in several posts, a good NFAA coach would likely do just a good a job for a lot less money.

I wrote this on LW thead....

_The only secret Ricky has is it's nothing much different than anyone else like Rod Jenkins is teaching, a good repeatable shot sequence with a solid form foundation.

A few traits like feather on the nose but any repeatable multi point anchor will be just as effective, the real difference is a normal NFAA Coach may take long to build the Archers trust, most of Ricky's students are already sold on his track record which is a big advantage to both Ricky and the students and will likely see very fast results.

It's great he is winning hearts and minds in Archery and raising the standard of Trad Archery._ 

As an example W4F said a few times nobody in Trad Archery has won as much as Ricky or is as experienced, as an example I would like to offer just one of many Coach's I know and respect, Urte Paulus, she is Austria's full time offical team 3D coach, she has a degree in Physical Education, has won 4 world titles and 3 European titles in IFAA\Fita 3D, she is also Fita level 3 coach and very good at what she does, she's not a celebrity shooter but I doubt many are as qualified or experienced as she is in trad Archery.

I'm pleased that somebody like Ricky having such a high profile is improving Trad Archery BUT he is teaching his own methods, my experience is good coaching is about understanding strengths and weakness and giving the tools so that Archer develop their own unique style. No two top Archers shoot exactly they same style, obviously Archers going to his school are improving but I feel Ricky's method is his own unique style and doubt anybody will reach his skill level using that method, if you go to his school to improve then you very likely will but to come away thinking your shooting will become as good as Ricky then you might be a little disappointed.

No offence ment to Ricky or his fans, just keeping the best trad coach out there statement in the real world of Archery. 

I imagine if somebody felt they didn't get their $500 worth of coaching from Ricky they would have spoken up by now on at least one of the forums, so it's important to keep this in mind also. I also feel this overkill on promoting his school may do more harm than good in the long run.

Shoot straight,whatever style you use


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## JhoneilC (Aug 30, 2007)

As a level 2 instructor, this is what I teach:

http://www.kslinternationalarchery.com/

Everything is broken down in the website. Shot sequence, videos, etc. -No secrets at all. I wish to see similar break downs in Rick's way of shooting. I am interested in all types of shooting and I am curious but I can't afford $500 just to satisfy my curiosity.

BTW, some NAA coaches charges $50 and up an hour So Rick's prices might be reasonable:thumbs_up


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## landrylm (Aug 9, 2009)

*Double the Money Back?*

So in an effort to do some more research on my own, I started going through the Rick Welch forums and found this on Leatherwall: 


> I took the class last March 2009. It was very helpful because Rick helped me develop a shooting routine.He helped me tuning and consistentcy. I learned my mistakes that had become had become habits. A year later...I am continuing to improve. I am forever greatful for his mentorship. I ordered one of his bows and It is now my go to bow. I love my Black Widows but Rick's Bow is my favorite now. *I guarentee you will come away believing it was money well spent. I will refund your fee if you do everything Rick teaches and you don't improve significantly.* It was the best money I ever spent in my archery habit. (Bryce Olson aka Moosehunter on Leatherwall)


Now, I'm not a genius at math but by my calculations I could take the course, throw the second day's shooting and walk away with $500 more than I had before if I take up Moosehunter and jasonsmeg.

So really, what gives? All of this double speak and "coincidences" across multiple forums really isn't adding up. As a former Chief of mine once said "2+2=Crap" and that's how the information being put out about this school is starting to look from my point of view. I find it *very* hard to believe that two separate people not directly affiliated with Mr. Welch would offer money back guarantee's to complete strangers. Can I get a legal contract from you guys binding you to this "refund" statement?


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## Jamesw (Sep 14, 2007)

Sounds like someone is getting headhunter fees for everyone they send to the school.How else could they offer a promise of a refund?Like a used car saleman they are working hard to make there sales. jmho


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

landrylm said:


> I find it *very* hard to believe that two separate people not directly affiliated with Mr. Welch would offer money back guarantee's to complete strangers. Can I get a legal contract from you guys binding you to this "refund" statement?


They both may be just two very pleased and happy archers that are estatic and extremely enthusiastic about the results they experienced.

Don't know for sure because I don't know them...but the more I read and investigate this...the more it seems almost 'cultish' to me or as like Jamesw implied...a sales marketing strategy.

Ray :wink:


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## Warbow (Apr 18, 2006)

landrylm said:


> So really, what gives? All of this double speak and "coincidences" across multiple forums really isn't adding up. As a former Chief of mine once said "2+2=Crap" and that's how the information being put out about this school is starting to look from my point of view. I find it *very* hard to believe that two separate people not directly affiliated with Mr. Welch would offer money back guarantee's to complete strangers. Can I get a legal contract from you guys binding you to this "refund" statement?


That does seem like a rather unusual coincidence. But, if there was a refund deal offered by Rick through proxies, you'd think that his biggest fan, Dave Mullins, would have posted it over and over, but I don't think he has. So, I dunno. Either way, I would like some confirmation by Jason and/or Moosehunter about this. I mean, I really like my Adcock ACS bow, but I'm not about to post a review and offer anybody who doesn't like it a cash refund out of my pocket. It would be a potentially very expensive proposition, especially being open ended.


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## jasonsmeg (Dec 6, 2007)

landrylm said:


> So in an effort to do some more research on my own, I started going through the Rick Welch forums and found this on Leatherwall:
> 
> Now, I'm not a genius at math but by my calculations I could take the course, throw the second day's shooting and walk away with $500 more than I had before if I take up Moosehunter and jasonsmeg.
> 
> So really, what gives? All of this double speak and "coincidences" across multiple forums really isn't adding up. As a former Chief of mine once said "2+2=Crap" and that's how the information being put out about this school is starting to look from my point of view. I find it *very* hard to believe that two separate people not directly affiliated with Mr. Welch would offer money back guarantee's to complete strangers. Can I get a legal contract from you guys binding you to this "refund" statement?


Hey guys, when I started this thread I didn't realize what kind of stir it was going to cause, more so in negative context. I want to apologize to any of those people out there who I have offended, or if it was taken that I am promoting Rick. This was truly not my intentions at all. I was just wanting to share my experience with those who cared, and hopefully make new friends here on Archery Talk and the other forums that have the same interest as myself in shooting a Recurve--no matter what method you choose!!. That being said, as far as 2 + 2 = crap; I don't think so. It equals 4:wink: I don't know the guy called MooseHunter at all, other than I just recently saw his pics of animals on the leatherwall or tradgang; they were cool by the way. I had no idea he offered the same "refund" statement as myself, but what does that say if another student has such great confidence in Rick's ability to provide such great hand's on teaching! The more I read other's negativity from people who are having the "glass half empty", it makes me question my offer of providing a refund for attending the school. One must be positive, and have an open mind in order for one to learn something new. Therefore, for those people who are making negative statements, I don't think I would care to offer this "refund". But for those people who are sincerely interested, give me a shout:thumbs_up


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## Warbow (Apr 18, 2006)

jasonsmeg said:


> Therefore, for those people who are making negative statements, I don't think I would care to offer this "refund". But for those people who are sincerely interested, give me a shout:thumbs_up


That's the problem with such offers, you don't get to retract them like that, which is one of the reasons why your generosity might have seemed a tad overconfident unless you had a deal with Rick. I think I'd feel better in some way if you had a deal with Rick, actually, because your offer is kind of over generous. But, if somebody takes the course and loves it thanks to the confidence your offer gives them, well, good for you.

There are some nuances that some people don't get about this issue. It is possible to be skeptical, even critical, without actually thinking ill of of the people involved. Rick's Shooting School sounds like a lot of fun, especially for people who are interested in Ricks Style. Dave Mullins seems really sincere about his delight in Rick--I don't question that for a second. And Jason's experience seems the same, though a bit more toned down. However, that doesn't mean it isn't legit to ask questions when posts like Jason's OP come up, though some people seem to think such questions constitute an "attack" on Rick and/or his Shooting School.


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## Two Blade (Jul 13, 2008)

I am kinda surprised that your two aren't pimping Dakota Bows as 'the best bows ever'.............satisfaction guaranteed. LOL


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## waiting4fall (Sep 20, 2007)

landrylm said:


> Like Viper, I've been fairly hesitant to comment on "any" of these threads but this one seems fairly calm so I'll jump in the pool.
> 
> Let me preface a bit of the following first. Rick's school is something I'm considering as one of my gifts to myself when I retire from the Navy in 3yrs (the other being a cruise, I just want to know what it's like to be underway and not work). $500 isn't chump change for me, heck $20 isn't chump change so I like to *know* I'm getting a certain value for my money. There's two main reasons for my choosing Rick: 1) Trophies don't win themselves, obviously he knows something about shooting. 2) He's in Arkansas and I'll be in Louisiana so travel costs won't be a big factor.
> 
> ...




First of all thank you very much for your service. Next I suggested that Rick make this following video, to help answer folks questions about the school. If you have any further need for more information, please do not hesitate to call or email Rick Welch. That's what he's there for. Rick Welch 1-501-821-3791

[email protected]


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## waiting4fall (Sep 20, 2007)

WARBOW, or may I call you Gerard? I just wanted to let you know that you've been banned from www.tradgang.com. May i suggest if you OR ANYONE ELSE still have ANY concerns regarding ME DAVE MULLINS, why don't you pm me, or better yet give me a call. You are really blowing things out of porportion, & I'm asking you to contact me & I'll answer EVERY SINGLE question that you want to ask me. Thanks, Dave Mullins 304-590-5623


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## Warbow (Apr 18, 2006)

waiting4fall said:


> WARBOW, or may I call you Gerard? I just wanted to let you know that you've been banned from www.tradgang.com. May i suggest if you OR ANYONE ELSE still have ANY concerns regarding ME DAVE MULLINS, why don't you pm me, or better yet give me a call. You are really blowing things out of porportion, & I'm asking you to contact me & I'll answer EVERY SINGLE question that you want to ask me. Thanks, Dave Mullins 304-590-5623


Actually, the whole thread got pulled, in part by somebody trying to out my private account info in the thread. You, Dave, as the publicly known producer of one of Rick's DVDs and tireless promoter of the same are hardly anonymous. Different category all together, ain't it?

Meanwhile, I'm un aware of any "ban" at tradgang. I have no emails to that effect, but you do seem to take some gloating in the idea that I have. Very big of you 

What is with the secrecy about your answers? If people have questions, wouldn't it be better to just answer them in the forum, where everybody may benefit from the answers?


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## BowmanJay (Jan 1, 2007)

Good God make it stop! Stop frigging putting up the same dammed videos you have been pimping on here for the last year or more. Enough is enough!


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## jasonsmeg (Dec 6, 2007)

Two Blade said:


> I am kinda surprised that your two aren't pimping Dakota Bows as 'the best bows ever'.............satisfaction guaranteed. LOL


Hey there, Did you ever watch that show "pimp my ride" on mtv? I kind of liked that show, and sure wish they would come and pimp my car for sure. Since you brought it up, I do shoot my beautiful new Dakota Bow with Bacote wood and it screams over 200fps I enjoy shooting it more than my Hoyt GameMaster II, that I previously learned on. It is very forgiving, draws easy, with no creep, and I love how it put's that pretty arrow in the 10ring:thumbs_up It may not be the best bow out there, but I sure love mine!


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## jasonsmeg (Dec 6, 2007)

BowmanJay said:


> Good God make it stop! Stop frigging putting up the same dammed videos you have been pimping on here for the last year or more. Enough is enough!


Hey there my friend, I am new to traditional archery and have not put any video up before. If you are tired of the darned videos, don't watch them, and don't open the thread or video--it's quite simple. But don't steal my thread, because I wanted to share my experience with others on this great site:thumbs_up


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## LongStick64 (Aug 29, 2009)

Lets all agree that the posting of these videos do more good for Rick than anyone reading these posts because we really aren't learning much from them to be honest. A better idea would of been to post clips on what you did to improve, much more meaningful. 
The title of the thread is of your experience, share it in more detail and I think people will be more receptive.


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## Warbow (Apr 18, 2006)

LongStick64 said:


> The title of the thread is of your experience, share it in more detail and I think people will be more receptive.


I generally agree. The more useful information a thread has the more interesting it is, especially about things I'm unfamiliar with like Rick's School. There is a thread over at trad gang (no, not Jason's cross post thread (and, yes, it turns out I was dumped from TradGang without warning or notice  )) where a number of people chimed in with some good detail about Rick' s class and what he did in it. I thought it was a really good and positive thread about Rick's Shooting School. It was started by somebody with questions about the School, as opposed to a promotional post about the school, though either kind of OP could get a good thread going.


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## SteveB (Dec 18, 2003)

> I do shoot my beautiful new Dakota Bow with Bacote wood and it screams over 200fps


Posting speeds without qualifying it with bow wght, draw length, and arrow wght really does not tell anything about the bow's proformance.


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## Warbow (Apr 18, 2006)

waiting4fall said:


> WARBOW, or may I call you Gerard? I just wanted to let you know that you've been banned from www.tradgang.com. May i suggest if you OR ANYONE ELSE still have ANY concerns regarding ME DAVE MULLINS, why don't you pm me, or better yet give me a call. You are really blowing things out of porportion, & I'm asking you to contact me & I'll answer EVERY SINGLE question that you want to ask me. Thanks, Dave Mullins 304-590-5623


Hmm...on review, it seems that all the posts that remotely quizzical about the OP have been scrubbed at the TradGang version of this cross-post. While they can say that they bounced me (without warning or notice) for having a blank profile for a few hours out of the last six years, they can't say that for all of the posts by assorted members that they dumped down the memory hole, all while leaving the attacks on those posts and their posters intact and out of context, which is not my idea of good modding, even for threads where I agreed that some posts should be deleted. It is just another of the examples of the professionalism we find at AT. While I don't always agree with the modding here and have some times been its object, it is generally not, IMO, arbitrary or capricious.

I don't know why they went on a tear over there. Rick's school was generally praised by all, and there was no name calling or anything of the sort. But, Rick is a "Sponsor" and, I can only guess, merits special "Sponsor" protection even from attacks that don't actually exist. Meanwhile, a TradGang poster has followed me to Leatherwall to continue a diatribe of OffTopic and unfounded personal attacks on me. I have to say that there is probably good reason why I posted so infrequently on TradGang...so I wouldn't gloat too much W4F. I don't think my banning at TradGang should be considered any sort of moral high ground.


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## Two Blade (Jul 13, 2008)

jasonsmeg said:


> I do shoot my beautiful new Dakota Bow


I thought so! :darkbeer:


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## waiting4fall (Sep 20, 2007)

LongStick64 said:


> Lets all agree that the posting of these videos do more good for Rick than anyone reading these posts because we really aren't learning much from them to be honest. A better idea would of been to post clips on what you did to improve, much more meaningful.
> The title of the thread is of your experience, share it in more detail and I think people will be more receptive.


I'm not debating w/ anyone, in my response to this quote, only providing some insight in the truthful representation of the vids mentioned. I'm the one who suggested to Rick to begin giving the students the opportunity to let the students share their honest experience of the class w/ the world.

Here is the reason for the vids. I suggested the vids to Rick, as a way to show folks , WHO ARE SERIOUSLY INTERESTED, that they have a truly, proven, world class method available to them that will change their shooting forever. IF THEY CHOOSE TO TAKE ACTION TO UTILIZE THAT OPTION. It's Rick's method that he developed & perfected over 35 years. The video's of the students are what 
anyone who attends will most likely experience if they come to the school. So it's all there at the school, every single detailed concept spelled out to you, in almost exhausting detail, by Rick Welch himself. If you want that Just book a class, or get the latest dvd (NOT A REPLACEMENT FOR THE SCHOOL), or call Rick 1-501-821-3791.

So that IS one of the ways I've tried to help my fellow trad archer/bowhunter. I'm simply providing awareness of an option that will fix shooting problems, & raise performance to new levels of consistent accuracy. If a person want's to say that's an infomercial that's fine. BECAUSE, I get emails, phone calls, & private messages QUITE REGULARLY from different people throughout the world thanking me for making them aware of what Rick Welch has to offer. That's why I called it a "win win", as I've always said since day 1. I'm just trying to help Rick help others, & let folks know what they may not be aware of. As a result there are grown men dancing in the streets, throghout this nation, because they're shooting better than they ever have in their lives. Ain't noboy getting played & I ain't gettin paid. 

Has anyone thought for a second why I would invest all this time & energy, refusing to accept any monetary compensation at all, ever. How bout this, because I believe in Rick & what he's doing. I believe that although his method is not the only method, it may be the best method for you. How will you know, if you 1- don't know it exists, & 2- If you don't learn the method from Rick, to see if it works. I just kow what it's done for hundreds of folks, & my goal from day 1 has simply been to create an awareness of THIS OPTION. It's up to the individual to take it or leave it. I'll go to my grave with this specific truthful fact: I've done all this work as much for EVERY person who is now shooting better than they ever have in his/her life, as a result of learning about Rick Welch, as I have to help Rick help other. Does anyone get this, it's for YOU! You just decide if you want it or not. That's the plain & simple God's truth. Let's all have a great day.- Dave Mullins. (let the quoting begin:wink


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## landrylm (Aug 9, 2009)

Then can you answer some very direct questions? Please? Because *THAT'S* the information I'd like to know, not what you think I should know.


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## MOC (Jul 4, 2003)

This thread has convinced me that the internet is no longer useful.


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## waiting4fall (Sep 20, 2007)

landrylm said:


> Then can you answer some very direct questions? Please? Because *THAT'S* the information I'd like to know, not what you think I should know.


I think I sent you a p.m., I see you are genuinely hungry for info, I want to help you get the info you need to make your decision. Here's my cell phone # 304-590-5623. I'm @ work right now, until 6pm. If you will call me after 6pm eastern time, I will answer EVRY SINGLE question that you have. Also I want you to understand that you absolutely can call or email Rick Welch. He doesn't bite, might look/smell funny:wink::tongue:, but he is there to help. That's what he has dedicated his life to is serving the traditional community.He's home today.

So you have options to get the info you want, I truly am willing to do anything I can to help you. I've done this with countless guys from Canada to Miami. Just give one of us a call, whatever you're most comfortable with.

Rick Welch 1-501-821-3791 [email protected]

Dave Mullins 1-304-590-5623 [email protected]


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## Sanford (Jan 26, 2009)

waiting4fall said:


> I'm not debating w/ anyone, in my response to this quote, only providing some insight in the truthful representation of the vids mentioned. I'm the one who suggested to Rick to begin giving the students the opportunity to let the students share their honest experience of the class w/ the world.
> 
> Here is the reason for the vids. I suggested the vids to Rick, as a way to show folks , WHO ARE SERIOUSLY INTERESTED, that they have a truly, proven, world class method available to them that will change their shooting forever. IF THEY CHOOSE TO TAKE ACTION TO UTILIZE THAT OPTION. It's Rick's method that he developed & perfected over 35 years. The video's of the students are what
> anyone who attends will most likely experience if they come to the school. So it's all there at the school, every single detailed concept spelled out to you, in almost exhausting detail, by Rick Welch himself. If you want that Just book a class, or get the latest dvd (NOT A REPLACEMENT FOR THE SCHOOL), or call Rick 1-501-821-3791.
> ...


No monetary interest, ever??

Never use a captive group for marketing purposes? 

Billy Holms Welcomes *Rick Welch & Dave Mullins* to Your World Outdoors

_BillyHolms (AKA William C. Holm) owner of BH Publishing LLC welcomed Arkansas Champion bow hunter, Rick Welch, and special events marketer, Dave Mullins of West Virginia to Your World Outdoors.Com on Monday, June 8th._

"Minneapolis-St. Paul, MN-WI (1888PressRelease) June 10, 2009 - *Dave Mullins, Inc.*, and BH Publishing LLC entered into an agreement to produce a TV Show called “Bull’s-eye: On Target Every Time,” to be distributed to the national bow hunting community.

In announcing the deal, Mr. Holm agreed to produce the show, *Mr. Mullins* and Mr. Rick Spitzer of the Minnesota Bowhunters Association, agreed to market the show to other bow hunter’s organizations and to outdoor media venues across the country.

................."


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## longbow billy (May 19, 2008)

Sanford, I guess that rules out,I'm just trying to help everyone

Personally when I see film clips of students and a coach who doesn't seem to possess or understand basic archery form, I'd look for another coaching alternative, perhaps even a lowly NFAA level 2 coach or equivalent.


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## FORESTGUMP (May 14, 2008)

*what is "proper"form?*



longbow billy said:


> Sanford, I guess that rules out,I'm just trying to help everyone
> 
> Personally when I see film clips of students and a coach who doesn't seem to possess or understand basic archery form, I'd look for another coaching alternative, perhaps even a lowly NFAA level 2 coach or equivalent.



If the arrow hits where where you want it to,was that proper form?
Is it possible to make that happen without proper form?
Proper for whom?


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## waiting4fall (Sep 20, 2007)

Sanford said:


> No monetary interest, ever??
> 
> Never use a captive group for marketing purposes?
> 
> ...



Wow that's old dtuff. I'll give you the facts about that. That was only "talked about", it never happened. That show never took place, it was only discussed. Do with that info as you choose, I just want to make sure you have the facts. I appreciate all of this interest in my dedication to help improve the accuracy standard in the traditional archery community. I'm flattered that so many have taken such a deep personal interest in me. Really, you should'nt, I'm just a guy trying to help. Never taken a single dollar, in any currency, ever during my involvement w/ this project w/ Rick. Not that it's ANYONE'S business, but I've nothing to hide. Anything else you want to know?


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## longbow billy (May 19, 2008)

Never used the word "proper" I did type Basic, as in the basic form handed down to us and proven by archers for decades. Basic form that works for 100% of archers, not the one rare indivial who teaches only his understanding of archery. ..however successful , he may be the only one in his lifetime that can succeed in the same fashion. Every sport has its exceptions, but they are indeed rare.


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## Sanford (Jan 26, 2009)

longbow billy said:


> Sanford, I guess that rules out,I'm just trying to help everyone


Any good promoter is always trying to help. I've been through the Big School of Biz up through the MBA and got a good schooling in marketing, but it doesn't take that much for folks to know the ways of promotion and when they see it. There is always the explicit "I'm here to help" with any advertisement. Watch TV. Even BP is trying to make the earth greener and safer - looking out for you and I. I've never seen any ad from any company stating, "we are here to make a buck from ya." That part is an implied benefit for helping you out.

I don't slant them for marketing and promotion. Just be upfront about it - people deserve to know business relationships exist when things are operating on a perceived personal level - even playing field and all that stuff.


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## steve morley (Dec 24, 2005)

I cant see anything wrong with helping everybody AND making money from it, as long as you're upfront about it right from the start.

Ricky has a big fan following and can understand the excitement of adopting a shooting style and seeing dramatic and positive results, you want to tell the world, I've always been open to new ideas but from all these posts on Ricky's method I've never heard anything new or remotely radical or much in the way of real information from his followers.

Any self taught archer who's reached a reasonable shooting level will benefit from a skilled coach, either from Ricky or a NFAA\Fita coach. With my coaching I dealing with newbies 70% of the time, which is easier than what Ricky is trying to do as I set the mold from day one, it's a difficult job to stop bad habits from self taught archers learned, you have to appreciate the skill Ricky has to give these people new shooting form and direction. :thumbs_up


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## jasonsmeg (Dec 6, 2007)

*just an update*

Hey guys, just wanted to let everyone know I did not intend for this thread to have a negative route, or the interpretation of promoting Rick or his shooting school. I just wanted to share my experience, and how it improved my shooting. Since I've returned from the school, I've tried to shoot everyday. The first couple of days it seemed that I did not shoot as well as when I was in attendance with Rick;perhaps because my muscles were so sore from all the shooting there:tongue: I've watched my video a couple of times and have had some resting time, and I shot yesterday from guestimate 10-30 yards--while shooting very well for me. I'm still trying to ingrain to myself that I must get proper back tension, as well as hold for 2 seconds while I focus on my spot. I'm thankful I dropped down 5 pounds on my new bow, because it has had a positive influence. :thumbs_up


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## jasonsmeg (Dec 6, 2007)

SteveB said:


> Posting speeds without qualifying it with bow wght, draw length, and arrow wght really does not tell anything about the bow's proformance.


Sorry about that; my draw wt is approx 42# at 29.5. I am shooting a gold tip 3555 crested with a 125gr field pt. My total wt is approx 395.


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## Eldermike (Mar 24, 2009)

steve morley said:


> I cant see anything wrong with helping everybody AND making money from it, as long as you're upfront about it right from the start.
> 
> Ricky has a big fan following and can understand the excitement of adopting a shooting style and seeing dramatic and positive results, you want to tell the world, I've always been open to new ideas but from all these posts on Ricky's method I've never heard anything new or remotely radical or much in the way of real information from his followers.
> 
> Any self taught archer who's reached a reasonable shooting level will benefit from a skilled coach, either from Ricky or a NFAA\Fita coach. With my coaching I dealing with newbies 70% of the time, which is easier than what Ricky is trying to do as I set the mold from day one, it's a difficult job to stop bad habits from self taught archers learned, you have to appreciate the skill Ricky has to give these people new shooting form and direction. :thumbs_up


I agree. I am certified to teach basic level NFAA. When I took the class I found it to be focused on teaching methods with the basic steps of archery in the background. I think that's key to understanding whats really going on here. I do not know Rick, but I gather from these and many other posts that he's a gifted teacher that can also shoot very well.


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## Jim Casto Jr (Aug 20, 2002)

At 9.4 grains per pound... that's sizziling fast.


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## Sanford (Jan 26, 2009)

jasonsmeg said:


> Hey guys, just wanted to let everyone know I did not intend for this thread to have a negative route, or the interpretation of promoting Rick or his shooting school. I just wanted to share my experience, and how it improved my shooting. Since I've returned from the school, I've tried to shoot everyday. The first couple of days it seemed that I did not shoot as well as when I was in attendance with Rick;perhaps because my muscles were so sore from all the shooting there:tongue: I've watched my video a couple of times and have had some resting time, and I shot yesterday from guestimate 10-30 yards--while shooting very well for me. I'm still trying to ingrain to myself that I must get proper back tension, as well as hold for 2 seconds while I focus on my spot. I'm thankful I dropped down 5 pounds on my new bow, because it has had a positive influence. :thumbs_up


Jason, based on your follow-up posts, you have shared some good info. The "negativity" is really just warranted skepticism of your very first post. As was previously stated by others, the only "help" that repeated model of posting had was to help find a $500 school. We've seen that same offer here times before. Sorry, but that fits the definition of an ad more than a helpful post- reread and see what "help" it offers for a forum built for the free dissemination of knowledge. I do feel that if Rick was a contributing member here, attitudes might be different. I know, I could go to him for info based on the provided contacts, but I post here. He has free links from here to his school. There's something asymmetric about that arrangement. 

You have since offered some valuable insight to what you wanted to share. Thank you. I've found that useful. Thanks for being a contributing member here. I look forward to what else you have to share.


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## BentonM (Aug 20, 2007)

I attended Rick's school last week and will offer some of my insights....

First, Rick is not a computer guy, but it is clear he is passionate about helping people shoot better. He picked me up at 8:00 AM the first day, and dropped me back at about 6:30 PM. The second day I had to leave by 2:30, so overall it was around $30 per hour for 1-on-1 instruction from Rick. Rick told me that years ago, he used to spend so much time giving free lessons that his wife told him he needed to start getting paid for it. I just got a call from him yesterday to see how things were coming, and he was quick to remind me that he is there for any questions, and that the instruction doesn't stop when theclass is over.

I had multiple form problems that Rick addressed. I had a tendency to pluck the string which was causing my shots to go left (I shoot lefty.) I also had a problem with my bow arm drifting right at the shot. I used to anchor corner of mouth, but started using thumb behind ear prior to shooting with Rick. Rick said that the corner of the mouth anchor would make it difficult for me to get good back tension, but that the thumb under ear was causing me to overdraw and rotate a bit, so we moved the anchor to a flap on my ear so I'd get better natural alignment.

Rick videotapes extensively, and breaks down your form problems for you on video so that you really understand your problems as you are going along.

I agree that many archers could do much better with good instruction, but respectfully disagree that what Rick offers is similar to what typical archery coaches are likely to offer. (I have not had other formal instruction.)

For years I've read all these boards, read all the books from Asbel to McKinney, watched all the videos from Ferguson to MBB, etc., etc...And since I'm really just a hunter, I've done pretty well with it, and have killed dozens of animals with a very low wounding rate. But I went to the school because I wanted to extend my range from 20 yards on a good day out to 30-40 yards. For the most part, I feel I'm almost there.

IMO, what Rick offers is a lot better for someone like me because his style of practice and ingraining good habits is different than what I've seen elsewhere and what I see typically advocated by competition shooters. 

I spent a Summer shooting 300 rounds. It did not help me at all, and I never got to where I could break 210 consistently. I switched from instinctive to gap, and back, and back again, with no real improvement. In fact, messing around with gap made me worse because I developed target panic. I'm inclined to agree with Rick - at least for me - that looking at the arrow resulted in confidence problems that led to target panic - but who knows? All I know for sure is that none of it helped me that much in the way that I was applying it.

I have no doubt that another coach would have helped a lot.

But the problem is, IMO, that most archery disciplines are measured according to groups at measured distances. I saw a thread the other day about good 20-yard groups for instinctive shooters, and I wanted to cringe...That's the same problem I'd run into over and over - trying to improve my groups. Rick believes that shooting groups leads to bad habits, and for me, I agree. 

For a hunting archer, it is really all about the one shot...And instinctive aiming, IMO, is a difficult style to use, learn and measure effectively with shooting groups. IMO, arrow-based aiming systems are just flat our superior for shooting groups at measured distance. But instinctive aiming shines with unknown distances and is particularly suited for hunting pressure style shots, IMO. Obviously both systems can work in both environments, but it seems common sense that they have different strengths and weaknesses, and that they don't neccassarily call for the same practice habits.

One of the big epiphanies for me was how incredibly well Rick shoots at long distances. He was consistently killing foam in what I'd estimate the 50-70 yard ranges. For years, I'd considered gap shooting to be better for long distance shooting. But Rick really challenges that notion, insisting that his scores relative to gap shooters improve as distances go beyond 40 yards. 

Rick says that he never shoots groups, except like 5-arrow groups as warmups at tournaments. I never saw him shoot at the same target twice except when he was "correcting a mistake". He encourages constantly challenging the brain with new distances and angles. And he calls for "childlike faith in the bow arm".

That's my huge takeaway...Now when I miss, I know what I did wrong. And I shoot one shot at a time, and measure myself one shot at a time. I am switching over to shooting at 3D targets only - as Rick said, "Do you hunt spots?" I consciously correct a mistake I made last shot, but otherwise just try to let the shot happen. It makes sense to me to keep practice as much like the real thing as possible...And it makes sense to me that my previous practice habits were leading to mental lapses, bad habits and frustration. 

Overall, I'd say Rick's school is ideal for someone like me that wants to increase their effective hunting range, and is open minded enough to abandon old habits. It is probably not ideal for someone who wants to shoot 300 rounds, American rounds, etc...

For me, it was a great experience and exceeded my expectations. I do not think this is the kind of stuff that lends itself well to book/video/Internet learning.


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## jasonsmeg (Dec 6, 2007)

BentonM said:


> I attended Rick's school last week and will offer some of my insights....
> 
> First, Rick is not a computer guy, but it is clear he is passionate about helping people shoot better. He picked me up at 8:00 AM the first day, and dropped me back at about 6:30 PM. The second day I had to leave by 2:30, so overall it was around $30 per hour for 1-on-1 instruction from Rick. Rick told me that years ago, he used to spend so much time giving free lessons that his wife told him he needed to start getting paid for it. I just got a call from him yesterday to see how things were coming, and he was quick to remind me that he is there for any questions, and that the instruction doesn't stop when theclass is over.
> 
> ...


 Hey there, I enjoyed reading your post for sure, thanks for sharing.


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## Warbow (Apr 18, 2006)

Looks like the mods added Benton's experience to Jason's thread. (Doesn't seem like Benton could have 'casue his post count is still "1")

folks can read responses to Benton's nicely detailed post at:

http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=1231709


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## landrylm (Aug 9, 2009)

Warbow said:


> Looks like the mods added Benton's experience to Jason's thread. (Doesn't seem like Benton could have 'casue his post count is still "1")
> 
> folks can read responses to Benton's nicely detailed post at:
> 
> http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=1231709


Think you'd be wrong on this one Warbow. Mr. Benton is different from Patrick M, albeit both posted similar and have a post count of one. Not sure what makes one wait almost 3 yrs to make their first post, but perhaps Mr. Benton will enlighten us in his second. Perhaps he could also take the time to answer my question about how Rick goes about teaching a student to "tune their equipment". There's also a possibility that he could share with us as well, his experience with shooting at targets greater than his point on distance utilizing Rick's teachings.


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## Warbow (Apr 18, 2006)

landrylm said:


> Think you'd be wrong on this one Warbow. Mr. Benton is different from Patrick M, albeit both posted similar and have a post count of one. Not sure what makes one wait almost 3 yrs to make their first post, but perhaps Mr. Benton will enlighten us in his second. Perhaps he could also take the time to answer my question about how Rick goes about teaching a student to "tune their equipment". There's also a possibility that he could share with us as well, his experience with shooting at targets greater than his point on distance utilizing Rick's teachings.


Yup. My fault. I was wrong about that. I made an assumption in haste. My apologies to the two posters. I thought the posts were the same by the same named poster. I didn't see that the names were different and didn't read the new one thinking I'd already read it in the other thread...


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## landrylm (Aug 9, 2009)

*Nice response from Rick*

Just a quick smoke and check of the email before bed and....



> Hi Larry
> Rick Welch here I heard that you are interested in coming to my shooting school
> . But with all the controversy on the forums concerrning me and my schools you now have your doubts about coming to my school. I guess this is one of my short comings but I am not good with computers and absolutely hate having to use them. I would personally like to inform you on what we will go through at the class. The first thing we will do is let you shoot 20 targets and score those targets just to get a idea of where your shooting is when you get to the class in this process I will be video you from all different angles after we get done with that we will go into the classroom and watch the footage of you shooting and talk about the things that you are doing incorrectly or inconsistently then I will take bow we will go back to the range and I'll take you through the routine you will start learning at the class I will take you step by step through your pre-shot routine your draw, your anchor, holding until the release goes off then you will get your bow and start working on the new routine once you get comparable with your new anchor and consistently placing your shot on the target in the same place we will get into the bow set up we will set the bow up to shoot where you are looking. Once we have achieved these goals we will go get some lunch after lunch we will spend the rest of the day working on your new routine forming your new habits at the end of the day, I'll take you back to your motel and pick you up the following morning and we will complete the class, there are all kinds of things we will cover through the course of the class from bow set up tying a String nock, arrow weights , kinetic energy charts on different arrow weights and get you set up with the best weight for the bow you are shooting penetration wise and speed wise. I hope this information helps you with your decision, I am here if you decide to take the class that would be great, if you decide not to, I wish you the best of luck if you have any questions feel free to give me a call 501-821-3791 P. S. also I heard you had concerns about my forum having two categories for people to post questions. I did that because I felt like it would be unfair to my past students to answer any and all questions concerning the class and the instruction step by step that is a given at the class after they had invested their time and money it. But after hearing negative input I had it changed now there is one category hey Rick that anyone that has a basic question can ask concerning the class or just needs help. I wanted to have the forum for support for my students after the class because I want them become the best they can wih there bow. Thanks Rick Welch


Decent enough response and one that shows he's aware of what's going on. I'm off to bed, not necessarily sleep with a one month old.


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## Warbow (Apr 18, 2006)

landrylm said:


> Just a quick smoke and check of the email before bed and....
> 
> 
> > But with all the controversy on the forums concerrning me and my schools...
> ...


Good of him to get back to you. I'd hazard to say that nobody here considers Rick's School controversial. It is clearly an excellent weekend course for those interested in Rick's style of shooting and who can afford it. The fact that there are other very good alternatives to learn archery that can work equally well for many archers is simply a fact, and in no way makes Rick's widely touted school controversial. I'm sure I'd learn something if I went, and I would definitely note his school to anybody interested.

The only "controversy" is in the wide number of glowing testimonials over the web, primarily those by "event promoter" Dave Mullins, who's enthusiasm is clearly genuine, but perhaps more than a bit over the top and perhaps even counter productive in the aggregate. Many of them came off as commercials lacking in the kind of detail that many of us would like to know about such a famous and talented archer's techniques and teaching. But, again, that doesn't make Rick's School controversial, only the posts by those people, if that.



Rick Welch said:


> I did that because I felt like it would be unfair to my past students to answer any and all questions concerning the class and the instruction step by step that is a given at the class after they had invested their time and money it. But after hearing negative input I had it changed now there is one category hey Rick that anyone that has a basic question can ask concerning the class or just needs help. I wanted to have the forum for support for my students after the class because I want them become the best they can wih there bow. Thanks Rick Welch


That sounds like a fine change that will only serve to open Rick's wisdom to more people, and, I think, make more people interested in taking lessons from him in person.* I hope he will also have Dave open the forum to browsing without needing a log in, so that the info there seems more open and less of a secret clubhouse, which will put the forum on Google and get more eyeballs on the forum and reduce the need to market by posting in other forums.* Locked down, the forum is of limited use. Once open to public browsing and Google, it becomes an excellent and *free* marketing tool under their full control.


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## BentonM (Aug 20, 2007)

landrylm said:


> Not sure what makes one wait almost 3 yrs to make their first post, but perhaps Mr. Benton will enlighten us in his second.


Benton is my first name. I used to post on the Leatherwall, but stopped posting much about 5 years ago, and have mostly been a lurker since then.



> Perhaps he could also take the time to answer my question about how Rick goes about teaching a student to "tune their equipment".


I think Rick tunes like everyone else, he just doesn't bother with bareshafts or paper tuning. In other words, he adjusts arrow spine and nock point to get any wobble out of the arrow. It isn't hard to get a fletched shaft flying well, and that seems to be the extent of his tuning.

It is the 'tuning the bow to the individual' that used to confuse me. I think it may be confusing because he isn't talking about tuning for good arrow flight like we normally think of tuning. He is basically talking about sighting in the bow to shoot where your arm wants to point it. 

In other words, you should adjust the bow to shoot where you're looking rather than shooting over and over until your subconscious aiming programs to your bow. 

Personally, I still use bareshaft tuning, and then if I'm consistently high or wide, I'll adjust nock point or side plate accordingly. This way, all of my bows shoot to where I'm looking.



> There's also a possibility that he could share with us as well, his experience with shooting at targets greater than his point on distance utilizing Rick's teachings.


I've changed so much and so I don't really know what my point on is anymore...And I haven't been judging distances or shooting much past 40 yards I reckon. Moreover, I'm trying hard not to look at the arrow at all.

I'd say that my confidfence level shooting at a 3D target has probably improved by 10-15 yards. In other words, I can shoot at targets farther away while feeling nervous like I might have to go looking for my arrow.

Rick did mention the point on thing to me, and said it is totally unneccassary for shooting long distances. His point seemed to be that utilizing subconscious aiming, letting your subconscious which has been programmed with arrow trajectories and bow arm positions and the sight picture (even though you don't consciously look at it) was a better at estimating yardages than consciously trying to estimate. He'd shoot a target way out there at maybe 65 yards and say, "If I was judging distances and just a little off, I'd be completely over or under."


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## BentonM (Aug 20, 2007)

Warbow said:


> My apologies to the two posters. I thought the posts were the same by the same named poster....


No apologies needed. I appreciate the reference to the other post, as it made for interesting reading.


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## landrylm (Aug 9, 2009)

BentonM said:


> Benton is my first name. I used to post on the Leatherwall, but stopped posting much about 5 years ago, and have mostly been a lurker since then.


Eh, where I'm from we still use Mr. for a first name. :teeth:



> I think Rick tunes like everyone else, he just doesn't bother with bareshafts or paper tuning. In other words, he adjusts arrow spine and nock point to get any wobble out of the arrow. It isn't hard to get a fletched shaft flying well, and that seems to be the extent of his tuning.
> 
> It is the 'tuning the bow to the individual' that used to confuse me. I think it may be confusing because he isn't talking about tuning for good arrow flight like we normally think of tuning. He is basically talking about sighting in the bow to shoot where your arm wants to point it.
> 
> ...


Thank you very much. That's exactly the type of answer I was looking for and I understand the value to that approach. It helps me to make sense of why I aim further left with one of my bows to hit the same spot as the other bow.



> I've changed so much and so I don't really know what my point on is anymore...And I haven't been judging distances or shooting much past 40 yards I reckon. Moreover, I'm trying hard not to look at the arrow at all.
> 
> I'd say that my confidfence level shooting at a 3D target has probably improved by 10-15 yards. In other words, I can shoot at targets farther away while feeling nervous like I might have to go looking for my arrow.
> 
> Rick did mention the point on thing to me, and said it is totally unneccassary for shooting long distances. His point seemed to be that utilizing subconscious aiming, letting your subconscious which has been programmed with arrow trajectories and bow arm positions and the sight picture (even though you don't consciously look at it) was a better at estimating yardages than consciously trying to estimate. He'd shoot a target way out there at maybe 65 yards and say, "If I was judging distances and just a little off, I'd be completely over or under."


I assume you meant "while *NOT* feeling nervous". I also think I have my understanding of how Rick (et al) shoot longer distances when the line of sight is obscured by the arrow or riser.

Thanks again, your responses have helped to clear up confusion I had about what was being taught.


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## airwolf (Jul 28, 2005)

wow Jason was nailing shot after shot and most targets looked difficult.'
what poundage was Jason shooting? I really like that Dakota bow also


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

airwolf said:


> wow Jason was nailing shot after shot and most targets looked difficult.'
> what poundage was Jason shooting? I really like that Dakota bow also


How much of these videos are edited?

If these videos weren't edited many of these shooters would be shooting near perfect scores at many of the local 3D competitions based on what I saw.

I think it would be more realistic to see the exact shot after shot as they went through a 3D course and scored it instead of editing out the bad or not so good shots.

If these vids weren't edited at all...my appologies and my hats off to some great shooters.

Ray :shade:


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## airwolf (Jul 28, 2005)

BLACK WOLF said:


> How much of these videos are edited?
> 
> If these videos weren't edited many of these shooters would be shooting near perfect scores at many of the local 3D competitions based on what I saw.
> 
> ...


I dont have the slightest idea


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## waiting4fall (Sep 20, 2007)

I was origionally going to respond landrylm privately, but the info may help answer questions that many on this thread have. So I hope you folks find this info helpful.


Glad you're still here, I hoped you did'nt give up on us, Rick, or whatever! Larry, here's the straight up deal, the God's truth. You want me to be direct, so I will, but in a respectful way. Rick's ONLY source of income is his shooting school, making bows, & his dvds. He does'nt work partime @ walmart, or cut grass on the side, his ENTIRE lively hood are the things I have previously mentioned. He has TRULY dedicated his life to traditional archery.

Rick developed & perfected an instinctive shooting method, that works, perhaps not for everyone, that's determined by the individual. There is ALOT, & I mean ALOT of extremely detailed, specific informaiton that is ONLY available in front of him face to face, in Conway Arkansas, at the shooting school. This is for a couple of reasons. 1- This is how he makes his living, it's his intellectual property, if you will, Rick created it Rick perfected it & it's not ALL free. 2- There have been, I think over 300 students through Rick's class, who have paid the $500 for 2 days of instruction, some have paid for 4 days & bought a bow & 2 sets of limbs, not to mention the travel & lodging expenses. These are folks form ALL OVER THE WORLD, not just the United States! So it would be absolutely, & competely unfair to THOSE folks who have paid their hard earned money for Rick to begin to freely share the deepest & absolute most succulent cuts of the meat of his program for free, it just ain't gonna happen! There has to be a limit.

I'm figuring you definitely understand what I'm saying, & probably are'nt happy with it, but that's the way it has been, is & will be, unless Rick decides otherwise. Now at competitions he has on more than a few occassions helped his fellow competitors, during the competition, when they ask him about a problem, that he see's plain as day. I'm talking showing them a thing or two, or adjusting their nocking point ON THE SPOT! It does'nt matter cause he usually absolutely beats the guts out of his competitors anyway, but that's the kind of guy he is. He's willing to help ANYONE to the absolute very best of his abilities. So don't think think Rick is just money hungry, not at all. 

I'll give you this. Rick NEVER bareshaft paper tunes, & thinks it's completely unnecessary. I asked him if we were going to do some bareshafting, he said "Do you hunt w/ a bareshaft"? I said nope. He said well there you go, I'll show you what to do, you don't need to do that. Sure enough once we had my setup complete, my arrows fly like absolute lazer guided missles! 

Before you absolutely blow a gasket, know this as an absolute fact. If you or anyone goes to Rick's school you will learn things that you may have never even considered before. This is the God's truth, Rick absolutely DISECTS & EXPLAINS IN GREAT DETAIL EVERY CONCEIVABLE ASPECT of videoed shooting form analysis, shooting instinctive vs consciously aiming & what the pros/cons are of each method,target panic what it is, how you get it & how to get rid of it FOREVER, bowsetup, arrow tuning, fletching shape -size- location- helical how to do it & why, preshot routine, the draw process, shot execution, follow through, sight picture, bow arm, grip, finger position/pressure, 3 UNDER OR SPLIT IT'S UP TO YOU, glove vs tab, anchor, breathing, stance, body position/alignment, nock point adjustment when why & how, how to tie a nock Rick's way- it's very cool, optimal arrow shaft selection to maximize the ultimate combo of weight/kinetic energy/flat trajectory, string, string silencers, string material & why he uses what he uses, string strand count & why he uses the number of strands he does, practice habits, mental aspects, measuring progress, knowing when something goes wrong, why it goes wrong, & what to do to fix each thing that can go wrong, & why it's the right thing to do to fix whatever goes wrong, as oposed to something else. 

Dude, it's a big deal, I still have'nt coverd it all because there is sooo much that he exposes you to. I was specifically instructed to only share what I've shared. Rick has told me 1,987,095 times, if someone wants to know more you tell them to call me. I'm telling you as sure as I'm alive if you go to Ricks class, you'll leave there thinking at least 2 things. 1- Darn Dave was right! 2- Holy crap I'm shooting better than I ever have in my life! It's the God's truth Larry, you just have to have faith man. I'm not trying to talk you into anything, that's your deal, do what you want. If all that I've mentioned above isn't enough, after the school is over you can contact Rick day or night for the rest of his life & he will not quit until he helps you solve whatever problem you are having. I've been on the phone with him at 11pm, I hear a beep & the next thing I here is Rick saying that's one of my students, gotta go!

I have'nt even touched on what a fantastic teacher he is. He will see something you are doing that's causing you to shoot poorly. He'll tell you what you need to do to fix it, & show you, & explain why it will work. I don't know how many times he's told me about a student having a problem, & he's had to tell them same thing, but in 2-3 different ways until they get it, & the lightbulb goes off. With some really bad cases he will tell a guy to do something just to redirect their focus & he's really showing them how to fix the main problem, & a few shots later the guys is saying, "Hey I'm not short drawing anymore!" Rick will be like huh, I was focused on your bow arm, that's awesome!  That's just an example, but he does that all time. He knows what do do to get you to shoot better, & how to communicate it in a way that YOU WILL GET. Once you meet Rick, you'll know he's the real deal. What you see is what you get, your success is very important to him.


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## landrylm (Aug 9, 2009)

waiting4fall said:


> I'm figuring you definitely understand what I'm saying, & probably are'nt happy with it, but that's the way it has been, is & will be, unless Rick decides otherwise. Now at competitions he has on more than a few occassions helped his fellow competitors, during the competition, when they ask him about a problem, that he see's plain as day. I'm talking showing them a thing or two, or adjusting their nocking point ON THE SPOT! It does'nt matter cause he usually absolutely beats the guts out of his competitors anyway, but that's the kind of guy he is. He's willing to help ANYONE to the absolute very best of his abilities. So don't think think Rick is just money hungry, not at all.


Buddy, there's one thing I understand above all. EVERYONE has a mortgage to pay and they're entitled to work to pay those bills. I'm not looking for the secret to be outed on the internet, truth be told I'd be willing to bet that most everything he teaches can probably be found on the internet even if it's not "as per Rick". 

At the same time, knowing the information and knowing how to apply the information is two completely different things. That's why some folks figure things out naturally and the rest of us pay people to teach us something. A lil information sharing isn't a bad thing, it usually only wets the appetite for more.


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## Warbow (Apr 18, 2006)

waiting4fall said:


> I
> Rick developed & perfected an instinctive shooting method, that works, perhaps not for everyone, that's determined by the individual. There is ALOT, & I mean ALOT of extremely detailed, specific informaiton that is ONLY available in front of him face to face, in Conway Arkansas, at the shooting school. This is for a couple of reasons. 1- This is how he makes his living, it's his intellectual property, if you will, Rick created it Rick perfected it & it's not ALL free. 2- There have been, I think over 300 students through Rick's class, who have paid the $500 for 2 days of instruction, some have paid for 4 days & bought a bow & 2 sets of limbs, not to mention the travel & lodging expenses. These are folks form ALL OVER THE WORLD, not just the United States! So it would be absolutely, & competely unfair to THOSE folks who have paid their hard earned money for Rick to begin to freely share the deepest & absolute most succulent cuts of the meat of his program for free, it just ain't gonna happen! There has to be a limit.





landrylm said:


> *At the same time, knowing the information and knowing how to apply the information is two completely different things. That's why some folks figure things out naturally and the rest of us pay people to teach us something. A lil information sharing isn't a bad thing, it usually only wets the appetite for more.*


I agree with this point. I don't believe that there are "secrets" or projectable "intellectual property" that are keys to success in archery. And the fact is that Rick's Techniques are neither copyrightable nor patentable. What can be copyrighted is a specific expression of ideas, such as the exact language used in a book, or the exact footage of one of your videos. And patents are generally about devices, not sports techniques, which are neither copyrightable nor patentable nor trademarkable. The techniques he uses are not protectable and the fact is anybody who learns the techniques can legally tell anybody else about them, teach them, write about them and spread them around as much as they want. But just knowing some of what Rick teaches will not make folks into Rick, otherwise all his students, over 300, would "be Rick." Coaching is a _process_ not a trick, not a secret. It is about customizing fundamental techniques to the individual archer to help them shoot to the best of their ability, not the revelation of arcane knowledge that must be protected like the secrets of a medieval crafts guild. It would not be "unfair" at all to Ricks former students to discuss Rick's Techniques. People take Rick's Class to learn directly from Rick, to get personalized hands on instruction and feedback, and to shoot with a truly amazing archer--an archery celebrity. Talking about Rick's teaching does nothing to devalue that. Nothing.

I think I can confidently say that nobody here who hasn't taken Rick's School thinks that hearing about what Rick teaches is a replacement for learning from Rick in person. It isn't the same thing at all. If it were, there would be no such thing as archery clinics. We'd all just read books and watch videos. Rick is in zero danger of loosing students by revealing what he teaches. Zero. But Rick can interest people by letting folks like you talk openly about what he does. That serves to show us more about Rick and make his School more interesting, not less. 

That is my opinion. I don't claim it is the only valid opinion.


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## jasonsmeg (Dec 6, 2007)

airwolf said:


> wow Jason was nailing shot after shot and most targets looked difficult.'
> what poundage was Jason shooting? I really like that Dakota bow also


Hey there, I am shooting approx 42# and the targets were from 10 to approx 30 yards or so. There was no editing on the shots, and what you saw was me averaging 9.1 points per target after going through the school. I like my new bow as well. He made the Riser out of Bacote, and the limbs are Bamboo.


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

jasonsmeg said:


> Hey there, I am shooting approx 42# and the targets were from 10 to approx 30 yards or so. There was no editing on the shots, and what you saw was me averaging 9.1 points per target after going through the school. I like my new bow as well. He made the Riser out of Bacote, and the limbs are Bamboo.


My appologies for implying that or questioning it. My hats off to ya. That was some mighty fine shootin'!!!! :thumbs_up

Ray :shade:


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## airwolf (Jul 28, 2005)

jasonsmeg said:


> Hey there, I am shooting approx 42# and the targets were from 10 to approx 30 yards or so. There was no editing on the shots, and what you saw was me averaging 9.1 points per target after going through the school. I like my new bow as well. He made the Riser out of Bacote, and the limbs are Bamboo.


Jason that is impressive to say the least I dont care if you have been shooting for 2 days or 2 years. I hope to achieve what you have. i know its a long road and im real excited to get started . its nice to see people progress in this sport . shoot straight 
:wolf:


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## FORESTGUMP (May 14, 2008)

*Free advertising*

Well,just the fact that this thread keeps going and going like the energizer bunny shows that a lot of people are interested. Some great advertising IMO.

Personally I did not know who this person was until all this started. I do appreciate that everything that he teaches seems to be sooo in line with the things I have been saying here all along. Bare shafts for example. Never could see a good reason for it. I have not argued that point here because I really don't like to argue and am certainly not very good at debate. 

I will admit that I had read an article about the school quite a while back but had forgotten about it. In the article the author described this man exactly the way he has been represented here. I have forgotten the exact words used but I do remember he said things like, real nice guy, gentleman, easy going, humble razorback or something to that effect. Obviously he's not a person to toot his own horn in a public forum. Now what he does with his own forum is an entirely different matter. Seems reasonable that it would be in place for the benefit of his students.


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## FORESTGUMP (May 14, 2008)

*atta boy*



BLACK WOLF said:


> My appologies for implying that or questioning it. My hats off to ya. That was some mighty fine shootin'!!!! :thumbs_up
> 
> Ray :shade:



If you can do it aint braggin! Just wish I could do THAT!


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

jasonsmeg said:


> Hey there, I am shooting approx 42# and the targets were from 10 to approx 30 yards or so. There was no editing on the shots, and what you saw was me averaging 9.1 points per target after going through the school. I like my new bow as well. He made the Riser out of Bacote, and the limbs are Bamboo.


I totally believe you improved and shot a 9.1 on the 20 target course.

I just want to make sure we are on the same page.

Sorry, I'm still a little doubtful but I promise to drop it after this :wink:

I counted 33 different targets shot not including the 3 or more slow mo shots instead of just the 20 target comparison.

Are you saying that you shot all those targets consecutively without a 5 or a miss and that every shot you took during the filming of that video was not edited out?

Ray :shade:


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## jasonsmeg (Dec 6, 2007)

BLACK WOLF said:


> I totally believe you improved and shot a 9.1 on the 20 target course.
> 
> I just want to make sure we are on the same page.
> 
> ...


Hey Ray, for clarification I did not shoot all those targets consecutively without a 5 or a miss. The video was not entirely of the 20 target course at the end. Perhaps it would have been a better representation or a better video if it was my final shoot of the 20 target course only? Sorry if this was misrepresented to you Ray and sorry for the doubt I may have instilled upon you or anyone else:wink: Next weekend I will try and video a 20 or 30 consecutive shot course, where I show all shots from that course to share with you guys of how I'm shooting:thumbs_up


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

jasonsmeg said:


> Hey Ray, for clarification I did not shoot all those targets consecutively without a 5 or a miss. The video was not entirely of the 20 target course at the end. Perhaps it would have been a better representation or a better video if it was my final shoot of the 20 target course only? Sorry if this was misrepresented to you Ray and sorry for the doubt I may have instilled upon you or anyone else:wink: Next weekend I will try and video a 20 or 30 consecutive shot course, where I show all shots from that course to share with you guys of how I'm shooting:thumbs_up


No problem. Even though some of the 'not so good' shots were edited out...that was still some mighty fine shootin'!!! :thumbs_up

I just thought the videos might be edited because every video I see of Ricky's students show them basically shooting every shot into the kill zone without any 5's or misses. I just think it would be a more accurate representation if the videos showed all of the shots without skipping or editing out some of the bad ones. It makes it more realistic or in my case...more believable. I do know it's possible to shoot clean or nearly clean on a 3D course...but I just wanted there to be some clarification.

I think it would be even cooler to see before and after videos for comparison!!! :thumbs_up

Ray :shade:


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## steve morley (Dec 24, 2005)

BLACK WOLF said:


> I just thought the videos might be edited because every video I see of Ricky's students show them basically shooting every shot into the kill zone without any 5's or misses. I just think it would be a more accurate representation if the videos showed all of the shots without skipping or editing out some of the bad ones. It makes it more realistic or in my case...more believable. I do know it's possible to shoot clean or nearly clean on a 3D course...but I just wanted there to be some clarification.
> 
> I think it would be even cooler to see before and after videos for comparison!!! :thumbs_up
> 
> Ray :shade:


I agree if you want to make it real get them to shoot 5 target herd shot in one take with no editing, will make it more believable and impressive, I also agree show them before and after, if they've made an obviously BIG improvement I think that would do much more to convince new students to sign up for Ricky's school than anything else.:thumbs_up


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## CLASSICHUNTER (May 20, 2005)

*wow*

seems guys we have a problem with professional help here on this site...I`ll stick my neck out here and say we have 2 heavy hitters on this site.. rick and viper .. both very educated in the art of shooting.. one computer savy one not.. I think in all fairness we hear alot about vipers book from maybe 4 or 5 regular posters and pushing the purchase of the book and we also get the regulars posting ricks videos another form of writing but with pictures.. I guess what I`m saying is equal time for both or no commercial ventures allowed at all.. ... we have now heard from posters how Rick does his sessions and whats covered in them and seen videos of greatly improved shooting from students.. just like the praise we have heard of vipers book.. Seems there are 2 camps here and the best bet is stay out of each others... Just my thoughts good shooting everybody...


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## Jack NZ (Apr 7, 2006)

Waiting4fall,

I can't afford to take one of Ricks classes,an that's exactly why I bought the last DVD,and that's exactly why I've been planning to buy the new one.
I'm not asking for any of your big secrets,but please tell me honestly,,,I have Instructional shooting Hunting Vol 2,,,is there any point in my buying the Accuracy factory,,,or from a learning point of view,is it simply a rehash of what I've already got.
Your most resent statement that anybody not attending Ricks classes,,ain't getting it,,,is not very encouraging to somebody that was planning on spending money on a DVD that now seems like it may in fact be a waste of time.
Please keep in mind I will pay three times what a person in the states will for that DVD,,,,the money could be better spent elsewhere if the new DVD really has nothing new in it. 

Thanks.


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## Warbow (Apr 18, 2006)

CLASSICHUNTER said:


> seems guys we have a problem with professional help here on this site...I`ll stick my neck out here and say we have 2 heavy hitters on this site.. rick and viper ..


Except we don't. Rick doesn't post here. Ever.

Saying that Rick is "here" is like saying that Byron Ferguson or G. Fred Asbell are here if their fans, students or associates post here. They are not here. Neither is Rick. The only place Rick posts is on the Accuracy Factory forum, which Dave has now graciously opened up to public browsing.




> I think in all fairness we hear alot about vipers book from maybe 4 or 5 regular posters and pushing the purchase of the book and we also get the regulars posting ricks videos another form of writing but with pictures.. I guess what I`m saying is equal time for both or no commercial ventures allowed at all.. ...


I've seen people promote both, and I've seen people complain about both. But the two situations are not quite the same, IMO.

Anyway, I totally agree that people should be allowed to tell us about archery stuff that may interest us, including books, videos and DVDs, though not to the point of abusing the site by having a single person starting bunches and bunches of new threads just to promote specific products or services, rather than providing posts that have useful information. Note, though, that most people mention Viper's book when answering "I'm new to archery, how do I get started" questions, not as new threads. Viper's book is the most comprehensive modern traditional shooting book that I'm aware of and it is reasonably priced, so it is a natural recommendation for new trad shooters who need to get their bearings. Other people are free to make their own recommendations, too. I think Viper's book has room for improvement, for more copy editing, improved layout and upgraded illustrations, but the fact is that there just aren't that many books on shooting trad that contain most everything a new archer needs to know in sufficient detail to actually be useful, such having specific shaft recommendations for arrow spine--Viper's book does, most books don't. (And I have no connection to Viper other than we are both posters here in this forum, and, no, I don't consider his, or any, book to be an equivalent substitute for quality personal instruction from somebody like Rick or coach Kim (an Olympic coach.))

Meanwhile, Viper freely shares his info here. In fact, his book was inspired by his realization that he was often answering the same questions in the forums all the time, so he went about compiling a book of classic archery fundamentals with the answers that people need. The book is *founded* in the free exchange of information, in helping people. Viper, in spite of being just a regular guy who used to shoot competitively, has sold over 5,000 copies of his book, because it is useful and is filled with facts and details. Rick, on the other hand, is a world class archer and an archery celebrity with a school that I think a lot of us would love to go to. Most people would love just to shoot with him, let alone get a chance to actually learn from him in person. But, in spite of the terrific new step in the direction of openess by Dave, making Rick's webforum browsesable by the public, Rick and/or Dave still base their discussions and training DVDs on the basis of withholding "secrets"--as is their right. But, while I respect their right to do so, I disagree with their reasoning. And, while they may think it will increase interest students in coming to Rick's school to learn Rick's hoard of arcane knowledge, I think the opposite, that secrecy is a turn off. And if Rick/Dave are leaving Rick's core "secrets" out of his commercial DVDs then why would anybody want to buy his DVDs? 

So, I'm glad that Dave and other students of Rick are giving us good info on Rick's. I think we all enjoy relevant details about archery techniques we are interested in, and I think detailed information sells coaching clinics. Does Does anybody think for a second that the two books by Former Korean and Australian, and current USA Archery Coach Kisik Lee have hurt his ability to get students to come to his archery clinics? Not a chance. Same goes for Rick. People want to learn from him in person. So, please, OPs, or at least the follow up posts, should include useful info and/or answer folks questions if they are going to be about a commercial product or service.


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## BentonM (Aug 20, 2007)

steve morley said:


> I agree if you want to make it real get them to shoot 5 target herd shot in one take with no editing, will make it more believable and impressive...


I shot the whole time with one arrow, and we never had a second arrow fletched up right or did any kind of herd shooting. 

The important thing to remember is that the videos he takes are first and foremost a learning tool. He only videos the actual shots, and then you watch on slow motion on a monitor directly from the camera. It really doesn't make sense to do it any other way for the student. So in the end, there will always be cuts between each shot which will always give fuel to the skeptics.

Another important thing to remember is that the students probably aren't too keen to have videos of their warts thrown around on the Internet for people to analyze and mock...I certainly don't want to become a case study in bad form for people to analyze .

In the end, I found the course to be exactly what Rick said it was going to be. In a sense, it was a lot more because a lot of lights went on that are internalized and personal. I doubt any customers have ever come away feeling that anything was misrepresented to them.


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## BentonM (Aug 20, 2007)

steve morley said:


> I agree if you want to make it real get them to shoot 5 target herd shot in one take with no editing, will make it more believable and impressive...


I shot the whole time with one arrow, and we never had a second arrow fletched up right or did any kind of herd shooting. 

The important thing to remember is that the videos he takes are first and foremost a learning tool. He only videos the actual shots, and then you watch on slow motion on a monitor directly from the camera. It really doesn't make sense to do it any other way for the student. So in the end, there will always be cuts between each shot which will always give fuel to the skeptics.

Another important thing to remember is that the students probably aren't too keen to have videos of their warts thrown around on the Internet for people to analyze and mock...I certainly don't want to become a case study in bad form for people to analyze .

In the end, I found the course to be exactly what Rick said it was going to be. In a sense, it was a lot more because a lot of lights went on that are internalized and personal. I doubt any customers have ever come away feeling that anything was misrepresented to them.


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## waiting4fall (Sep 20, 2007)

Jack NZ said:


> Waiting4fall,
> 
> I can't afford to take one of Ricks classes,an that's exactly why I bought the last DVD,and that's exactly why I've been planning to buy the new one.
> I'm not asking for any of your big secrets,but please tell me honestly,,,I have Instructional shooting Hunting Vol 2,,,is there any point in my buying the Accuracy factory,,,or from a learning point of view,is it simply a rehash of what I've already got.
> ...



Jack thanks for you interest in Rick's new dvd. Let me qualify myself to give you advice on this particular dvd, THE ACCURACY FACTORY. I submitted the content outline, title, & dvd description, to Rick for his consideration. He loved it, added his stuff to what I suggested, & as a result it is without question his most informative, instructional dvd to date. I can, in full confidence, state that you will gain alot of beneficial info from this dvd. It's available in the online store on Rick's website.

As for the students shooting & testimonies between segments of instruction, that's on me if anyone disapproves. I suggested that to show the "universality", for lack of a better term, of Rick's method to different individuals, at all different skill & ability levels.

I have an excellent idea, to help you even further, which I will contact you about. First I have to speak with Rick to see what his feelings are on my idea. If he's game I think you'll be very excited when I share it with you, & this will all be for YOUR benefit, & to help YOU! If I get the green light I'll be in touch with you, through private message on our forum THE ACCURACY FACTORY. I'm excited just thinking about it! Jack, also you could post your question in the "HEY RICK" thread on our forum, 
& he will answer you directly. Just know that I've already gone to work on your behalf, to help you as much as humanly possible given the logistics we have to work with. I'll be in touch.- Dave Mullins.


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## Jack NZ (Apr 7, 2006)

waiting4fall said:


> Jack thanks for you interest in Rick's new dvd. Let me qualify myself to give you advice on this particular dvd, THE ACCURACY FACTORY. I submitted the content outline, title, & dvd description, to Rick for his consideration. He loved it, added his stuff to what I suggested, & as a result it is without question his most informative, instructional dvd to date. I can, in full confidence, state that you will gain alot of beneficial info from this dvd. It's available in the online store on Rick's website.
> 
> As for the students shooting & testimonies between segments of instruction, that's on me if anyone disapproves. I suggested that to show the "universality", for lack of a better term, of Rick's method to different individuals, at all different skill & ability levels.
> 
> ...


Dave,thanks very much for your reply.
I very much appreciate and trust your word on Ricks new DVD.
Dave I have in fact just signed onto Ricks web site using my real name (John Carter) and even though I have not done any of his classes,it will be great to talk with other archers who have turned to Ricks methods to improve their shooting.
Just in case your interested,,I know some guys don't like you pushing Ricks Methods on archery talk (I don't know why) but had you not done this,I wouldn't of known of Rick out side the odd coment I may of heard before your posts,,,a big thank you for that.
Mate,I don't really want you going out of your way on my behalf,but belive me I really do appreciate any advice you or Rick can or do offer.
Just on what you've now told me,I will now be buying the latest DVD,,,will be interesting to see your ideas:wink:

All the best mate.
John.


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## Lil Okie (Mar 25, 2008)

Dave.. I am another one who would have never heard of Rick had it not been for your posts.

I understand and share your passion for archery...:thumbs_up


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## JhoneilC (Aug 30, 2007)

Rick lives in Arkansas and his bows are Dakota Bows? I'm confused


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## waiting4fall (Sep 20, 2007)

JhoneilC said:


> Rick lives in Arkansas and his bows are Dakota Bows? I'm confused



The company DAKOTA BOWS is named after Rick's son Dakota. That young man can not pick up a bow for a month, & after a few shots he's slammin to 10 ring.


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## Landon Lovel (Jan 15, 2013)

I have ordered and watched Rick's tape several times. I feel his information has dramatically changed my ability to be the best I can be. I paid the man for his tape and feel I got my moneys worth. The shift to three under was a big benefit. The feather to the nose for a double anchor was another big help. I kept my mind open and changed much after being introduced to his information. Trusting myself to just let my mind and body do what they do was a release that really made Archery far less stressful and far more enjoyable. It's like in the manner I can throw you a baseball without aiming. I have extrapolated much in viewing his tape and reading up on the subject. I practice often. I shoot with only recurve and wooden arrows. The arrows I make myself. They are spine and weight matched. A jewelers scale has meant everything. The information and contemplation of physics that followed was pure enjoyment and gave me instant rewards. You have to realize that the reason you can still, even today, pick up a baseball and throw it with accuracy, and never aim, is because the size and weight of that baseball is still the same. Know what weight of an Archer you are. If you shoot a 30.5" arrow weighing 450gn...than you are a 30.5" / 450gn Archer. Shoot out in open fields at long distances. Use brightly colored fleching and watch that trajectory like when you were a boy watching the football spiral as you threw it to your buddy. You never just watched to see it hit. No, you watched the entire flight. Those trajectory files are still with you today. As long as the football weighs the same...you can still do it. I guess I would consider attending his school if it weren't so far away and now he is up to $600.00. He seems like a "GREAT" man. My hero really, though he will likely never know that. One thing that helped me a lot was training my eye to really focus. I'll betcha at his school he has some top secret way of doing that. I'm not too dumb myself. I have created training aides that have done much for my ability to focus my eye. Pick a spot and you can hit it. If your eye can't stay locked on that spot...well, your getting my point. Maybe one day I'll have the money to meet the legend, until then I'll have to muddle through with the gifts God gave me and any help I can find here on Archery Talk. This is my first post. I have enjoyed reading yours so I had to go join tonight. See you on the line!


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## benofthehood (May 18, 2011)

:RockOn:

Cool , glad you got something out of it and that you feel that you'll improve ... 

I look forward to seeing your progress ...


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## 187 BOWHUNTER (Feb 13, 2011)

Are Ricks classes one on one or group classes? I don't know if I would pay ($300 a day now) for group lessons...


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

one on one


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## keb (Jul 17, 2007)

I hope to go in a few months, I figure heck I only live once, I spent as much trying new arrows and bows, just have to get out of this arm sling from surgey.


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## Babysaph (Oct 18, 2011)

I had to register to post here what is the difference in registering on ricks site?


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## Babysaph (Oct 18, 2011)

I wouldn't give my info for nothing if I made a living out of it. Tiger Woods doesn't give free golf lessons.


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## Roger Savor Sr (Feb 16, 2014)

Babysaph, I happen to notice that you reopened an old Rick Welch thread on The Leatherwall also today, which happens to be every bit as contentious as this one. Do you need some information on Rick?........Perhaps you could call him.


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