# Why can't Regions grow?



## boilerfarmer12 (Nov 22, 2011)

With the growth and popularity that the ASA has had and will have in the future why cant Regions suceed the same way? With the shrinking of the IBO and more and more poeple from the North (myself included next year) moving to the ASA why cant those same people and the other people who dont want to shoot IBO but dont want to travel shoot the Regions shoots? They are in my underststanding run the same way and have the same rules. I just dont understand how with all the success the ASA has had that Regions cant piggy back onto that growth. In theory it should be able to become the northern ASA. If they would keep the shoots to the Midwest and some East coast I dont see why they couldnt pull some of the IBO shooters and sponsorship away.

Here would be my ideal states:
Indiana
Ohio
Iowa
Michigan
Pennsylvania
Illinois 
Kentucky
Missouri

I know there is some crossover with ASA but oh well. As long as they dont conflict with ASA shoots I dont see why they cant be shot there. And as far as IBO conflicts, who cares. The USA was built on a free market system where the consumer can choose what they want, in this case to shoot.


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## T&A (Sep 26, 2013)

I think they could grow also if they would concentrate on those states you chose and quit following the Asa shoots around the south and Midwest


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## archeryshooter3 (Apr 12, 2011)

It won't grow in my opinion due to money, not that it doesn't pay out well, but most people simply can't afford to go halfway across the country every other weekend. Between hotels, gas, food, and shoot fees it just financially would strap most shooters.


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## boilerfarmer12 (Nov 22, 2011)

archeryshooter3 said:


> It won't grow in my opinion due to money, not that it doesn't pay out well, but most people simply can't afford to go halfway across the country every other weekend. Between hotels, gas, food, and shoot fees it just financially would strap most shooters.


That's what I mean tho, the people who are dumping ibo. Why don't they switch to regions.


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## myjustice400 (Mar 27, 2015)

That was Regions original idea, to screw over IBO and take away their shooters. But when you talk about people behind their backs, and don't think word's going to get around, and in general you think you're going to walk on water above everybody else.......well, sometimes it don't turn out the way you plan. Poor planning, wasted money, dishonesty to shooters.....it'll bite you in the end. Now, who wants to shoot for a chance at winning enough money to cover your meals for Saturday? You asked.


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## carlosii (Feb 25, 2007)

Plenty of potential shooters in the states mentioned.

May be too late to turn the ship around.


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## WhitetailAce (May 16, 2012)

First off, Regions does not have the greatest website in the world. Which is a huge downfall for them. Their website is should be one of their biggest marketing tools and it really just falls short. It needs to have more information, more event details and past event details (like easier to find score and pictures) and it needs to be organized more. 

Another downfall to Regions is some of their classes are confusing and need to be simplified and cut out the gimmicks. I do not shoot the Modern Bowhunter class, but this to me is very confusing and straight from their website. Plus the whole concept of shooting from a treestand shooting platform 2-3 feet off the ground is kind of pointless in my opinion. 

Friday:
9:00 AM 1st Dimension Modern Bowhunter Class 450 round 15 targets A range 
1:00 PM 2nd Dimension Modern Bowhunter Class 450 round 15 targets B range 
3:30 PM 1st Dimension Modern Bowhunter Class 450 round 15 targets A range 

Saturday:
8:00 AM 1st Dimension Modern Bowhunter Class 450 round 15 targets C Range 
10:00 AM 2nd Dimension Modern Bowhunter Class 450 round 15 targets B range 
1:00 PM 1st Dimension Modern Bowhunter Class 450 round 15 targets C range 
4:30 PM – 5:30 PM 3rd Dimension Modern Bowhunter Class 450 round 15 targets Bowlife range 

Sunday:
9:00 AM 3rd Dimension Modern Bowhunter Class 450 round 15 targets Bowlife range 
1:00 PM Bowlife Modern Bowhunter shoot up 

Focus on running a good tournament and forget about all the gimmicks.


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## WhitetailAce (May 16, 2012)

As far as location, this would be ideal for Regions, minus the center Indianapolis point. I just used that as a center point.


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## draw29 (Dec 11, 2004)

They came to Warren ,Pa and we brought the guys out. Best showing they had yet with around 200 shooters. We all enjoyed it and probally would of doubled that number the next year. Regions went south never to be seen again.


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## SJunior (Jun 16, 2011)

It would also be smart on their end to coordinate the shoot date with the local shoots (within a 3 hour drive of the shoot location). I know of several shoots that are going to draw more shooters this weekend that would probably have gone to Regions had these shoots not been on the same weekend.

Kind of hard to get excited about going to Regions when you have a chance at winning more money elsewhere.


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## hoosierredneck (May 10, 2010)

When they came to indiana, only a few archers showed up.so maybe support your home states shoots at least.


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## boilerfarmer12 (Nov 22, 2011)

hoosierredneck said:


> When they came to indiana, only a few archers showed up.so maybe support your home states shoots at least.


I wanted to but prior commitments to another archery organization prevented me from competing.


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## nochance (Nov 27, 2008)

draw29 said:


> They came to Warren ,Pa and we brought the guys out. Best showing they had yet with around 200 shooters. We all enjoyed it and probally would of doubled that number the next year. Regions went south never to be seen again.


and i thought the following year they had PA on the schedule(was thinking about going) but then pulled the rug out and moved it to michigan


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## shanxalot (Mar 4, 2012)

If they do survive next year here me and wife will do the opposite of this year we will shoot one Asa and the rest regions , was told all the money stays at state level so they are having shooter of year and state championship buckels , instead getting to keep the 2 or 3 dollars and getting the certificate ! Or the cheap buckels from Asa !


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## 3D Pinwheeler (Jan 29, 2007)

They promised us the championship shoot the following year and never came back. Too many classes and don't shoot the sames shoots twicein a row. How could u schedule to go if they go from Pa to La ???? They told us Ny, Ohio, Pa, Virginia all in one Region....nice lie in one year.


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## SWAG (Jul 15, 2012)

What if they mocked the IBO classes and scoring instead of ASA? They would probably grow then. Plus, it would go ahead and kick IBO over the cliff. They are on the edge of it anyway.


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## Davik (Apr 16, 2003)

I shot with two of the bigshots from Regions at Metropolis...they claim 16 Regions shoots for next year...we'll see...


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## tmorelli (Jul 31, 2005)

shanxalot said:


> If they do survive next year here me and wife will do the opposite of this year we will shoot one Asa and the rest regions , was told all the money stays at state level so they are having shooter of year and state championship buckels , instead getting to keep the 2 or 3 dollars and getting the certificate ! Or the cheap buckels from Asa !


If you are talking about Oklahoma, you got some misinformation. Of our $30 entry fee, $5 goes to the ASA, $12.50 goes to the club, $12.50 goes to the pot for payouts at that event. No money is reserved for a award (buckle, plaque, etc) fund. The "cheap buckles" from the ASA are the standard where no buckle fund exists. The only way to have a buckle fund is to charge more entry fees or pay less back to the shooters/club. 

I too would love to see a buckle fund. But it comes at a cost and there is a reason our state director chooses not to run a buckle fund. If you're really interested, I'd suggest you ask him about it after the state shoot... nicely.


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## swampy_44 (Nov 15, 2013)

Tmorelli. If you don't mind me asking, what did you get for winning regions in Oklahoma?


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## tmorelli (Jul 31, 2005)

swampy_44 said:


> Tmorelli. If you don't mind me asking, what did you get for winning regions in Oklahoma?


$180

Cost me $60 entry +$15 practice range +$20 team shoot +$15 membership (1/2 of what I actually paid at the Bossier City shoot). 

I'm fairly certain that the total payout to Open A was $270 ($180+90) at each of those events. From memory, each field had 9 shooters and these were the two largest events for Regions. 9x$60= $540... So, they are paying 50% to the field. I wonder how much they are keeping for their SOY program.

To be clear, this is one of the main things that I see as preventing Regions from growing.... The value proposition. Regions is paying back less % than ASA (70% to the pot, 10% to SOY)...and less total as a result of the % and as a result of poor attendance. But, the cost to the shooter is the same and there is no upside compared to a local ASA qualifier or similarly run club shoot.


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## shanxalot (Mar 4, 2012)

Thought it was 15 ,10 ,5 even so at 5 dollars a head and the same number of shooters that money stays home not sent to corporate ! Lol and asking that question is a Death sentence ! Lol and on the stillwater well we all know the elite shoot out killed the numbers plus the additional Asa shoots scheduled didn't help the numbers


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## tmorelli (Jul 31, 2005)

shanxalot said:


> Thought it was 15 ,10 ,5 even so at 5 dollars a head and the same number of shooters that money stays home not sent to corporate ! Lol and asking that question is a Death sentence ! Lol and on the stillwater well we all know the elite shoot out killed the numbers plus the additional Asa shoots scheduled didn't help the numbers


I don't buy it. My belief is that Regions isn't going to draw over 200 shooters even if there are no shoots scheduled for 500 miles around, 2 weeks before, during and after. 

Marketing, Payouts, cost to shooters, rules...and an earned reputation in a competitive market.

There is a small population of people who are willing to travel and drop a couple...or few hundred dollars on a weekend of 3d. Those that exist, are already doing it to the extent of their budget for time and money and they are choosing to go where they get the most bang for their buck. 

Local shooters (err, regional....region's potential customers) are local for a reason. They flock to cheap, one day shoots...often with loose rules. Things like scheduled start times, equipment rules, shooting with strangers, memberships....they are all deterrents to this type shooter.


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## shanxalot (Mar 4, 2012)

I will agree with you on the pro/am side but why is it on the state level they are able to give away gist buckles for state and shooter of the year ? And how can we as shooters get those said shooters involved? Give away a door prize every shoot ? It would be nice to see the numbers grow here ! And it would also help the local archery shops if more shooters showed up ! Or maybe a new move up rule for the novice classes ? To actually keep it competitive?


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## Huntin Hard (Aug 8, 2011)

draw29 said:


> They came to Warren ,Pa and we brought the guys out. Best showing they had yet with around 200 shooters. We all enjoyed it and probally would of doubled that number the next year. Regions went south never to be seen again.


I'm hearing rumors of them coming to the Winchester VA area next year. Haven't heard for sure yet though


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## tmorelli (Jul 31, 2005)

shanxalot said:


> I will agree with you on the pro/am side but why is it on the state level they are able to give away gist buckles for state and shooter of the year ? And how can we as shooters get those said shooters involved? Give away a door prize every shoot ? It would be nice to see the numbers grow here ! And it would also help the local archery shops if more shooters showed up ! Or maybe a new move up rule for the novice classes ? To actually keep it competitive?


The buckle fund... That would be a question for Luke. I have heard the Regions was taking no cut from the state level shoots this year. My guess is that is where the buckle fund came from, but it is just a guess. 

Is there no move up rule in the novice classes for Regions? ASA has one. Did Regions have enough qualifiers for anyone to actually get moved up?


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## tmorelli (Jul 31, 2005)

shanxalot said:


> I will agree with you on the pro/am side but why is it on the state level they are able to give away gist buckles for state and shooter of the year ? And how can we as shooters get those said shooters involved? Give away a door prize every shoot ? It would be nice to see the numbers grow here ! And it would also help the local archery shops if more shooters showed up ! Or maybe a new move up rule for the novice classes ? To actually keep it competitive?


I asked Doug. He said $10 to the club, $10 to the payout, $10 to the buckle fund. 

Which in my mind, explains how they funded it. That is twice the $ to the buckle fund.


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## Tallcatt (Jul 27, 2003)

Our Texas ASA Federation entry fee breaks down like this:

$30.00 entry fee for all adult classes
$16.00 for youth classes ($15.00 to club and $1.00 to award fund)
$5.00 for eagles (club retains)
We buy and award club specific awards to all eagles and 1st, 2nd and 3rd place plaques to youth shooters.

$30.00 entry fee breakdown:

$13.00 to the club for the use of their facilities and targets
$9.00 to shooter payback
$5.00 to ASA
$3.00 to buckle and youth awards funds

Our award/buckle fund has been very successful since we implemented it in 2008. We bought $4931.00 worth of buckles for the state champions and SOY awards for 2015. For an award fund to be handled properly an organization needs a treasurer. Tracy and I do not touch the buckle fund monies. When we need monies for awards our treasurer issues the check.

Here is the Bow Novice and Open C move up rule that we use.

Bow Novice and Open C Move Up Rule 

Shooters will move up immediately for the rest of the season if they:
Win 2 qualifiers with 10 or more shooters in their class
Or
Have 3 top three finishes with 10 or more shooters in their class
Or
Win the State Championship 

We moved up four shooters during the season plus the BN and Open C state champions.


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## carlosii (Feb 25, 2007)

Davik said:


> I shot with two of the bigshots from Regions at Metropolis...they claim 16 Regions shoots for next year...we'll see...


Two bigshots from Regions? Hmmm...I think there's only one big shot and his name is Richard...:wink:


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## Davik (Apr 16, 2003)

carlosii said:


> Two bigshots from Regions? Hmmm...I think there's only one big shot and his name is Richard...:wink:


Yeah...they referred to him many times throughout the conversation, and claimed to be on the inside of the regions experience...I just listened and soaked in all the info...


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## myjustice400 (Mar 27, 2015)

carlosii said:


> Two bigshots from Regions? Hmmm...I think there's only one big shot and his name is Richard...:wink:


Shawn dosen't work with Regions anymore?


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## myjustice400 (Mar 27, 2015)

Davik said:


> ...they claim 16 Regions shoots for next year...we'll see...


This is just bunk. First, there's no way they could afford to set up 16 shoots. Second, they're lucky if they can get 4 sites that are suitable with people willing to work with them. It's become tradition to brag and speculate what they'll have next year, but when the chips are down, it ain't gonna happen. Most of it is just lies to shooters.


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## Sweet Seat (Apr 2, 2015)

WhitetailAce said:


> First off, Regions does not have the greatest website in the world. Which is a huge downfall for them. Their website is should be one of their biggest marketing tools and it really just falls short. It needs to have more information, more event details and past event details (like easier to find score and pictures) and it needs to be organized more.
> 
> Another downfall to Regions is some of their classes are confusing and need to be simplified and cut out the gimmicks. I do not shoot the Modern Bowhunter class, but this to me is very confusing and straight from their website. Plus the whole concept of shooting from a treestand shooting platform 2-3 feet off the ground is kind of pointless in my opinion.
> 
> ...


I would and a good deal of my friends would to BUT, almost every shoot they do in our area is the same day as a ASA shoot, such as, the state and regional ASA shoots.


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## rattlinman (Dec 30, 2004)

myjustice400 said:


> This is just bunk. First, there's no way they could afford to set up 16 shoots. Second, they're lucky if they can get 4 sites that are suitable with people willing to work with them. It's become tradition to brag and speculate what they'll have next year, but when the chips are down, it ain't gonna happen. Most of it is just lies to shooters.


Maybe, maybe not. Let's think about this for a second. Regions uses a lot of local help to set up the shoots, re-sells the ranges after each tourney, and gets a guaranteed check from the Area Chamber of Commerce to bring this type of tourist event to the area. So if all of the prize money is from entry fees, and he pays for minimal help, then most of the Chamber of Commerce probably goes into the business or his pocket. Plus the membership fees go directly back to the club.

So let's say after expenses, Regions only clears $20,000 per shoot. $100,000 a year to put on 5 shoots is pretty good money for a retired fellow. I would try to add more shoots as well!!

And yes, they do get paid by the city that hosts the event, both ASA and Regions do. If they were relying on entry fees and memberships alone, it would have died loooong ago.


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## myjustice400 (Mar 27, 2015)

That's fun to think about but he ain't making that kind of dough. How much would you imagine a Chamber of Commerce pays? Take a WAG...... What's it worth to a city to bring in 100 people?


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

archeryshooter3 said:


> It won't grow in my opinion due to money, not that it doesn't pay out well, but most people simply can't afford to go halfway across the country every other weekend. Between hotels, gas, food, and shoot fees it just financially would strap most shooters.


Still the best answer of why Regions can't grow.


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## reylamb (Feb 5, 2003)

rattlinman said:


> Maybe, maybe not. Let's think about this for a second. Regions uses a lot of local help to set up the shoots, re-sells the ranges after each tourney, and gets a guaranteed check from the Area Chamber of Commerce to bring this type of tourist event to the area. So if all of the prize money is from entry fees, and he pays for minimal help, then most of the Chamber of Commerce probably goes into the business or his pocket. Plus the membership fees go directly back to the club.
> 
> So let's say after expenses, Regions only clears $20,000 per shoot. $100,000 a year to put on 5 shoots is pretty good money for a retired fellow. I would try to add more shoots as well!!
> 
> And yes, they do get paid by the city that hosts the event, both ASA and Regions do. If they were relying on entry fees and memberships alone, it would have died loooong ago.


I doubt Regions is getting 20K before expenses per shoot....


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## myjustice400 (Mar 27, 2015)

reylamb said:


> I doubt Regions is getting 20K before expenses per shoot....



You are right. If you're only drawing 100 shooters at best to town, that equals to less than 100 hotel rooms and less than 2 meals a day on the economy. The city has to expend money in resources to support this such as mowing and cleaning areas for setup, supplying power, etc. If they gave you $20,000 they'd be a fool.


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## myjustice400 (Mar 27, 2015)

rattlinman said:


> Regions uses a lot of local help to set up the shoots............re-sells the ranges after each tourney,



Further - they have local's that help when available to set up ranges, but still have employees that help and over see. Then they have to pay for targets and have them delivered to the range............they don't always sell all the targets, so then you have to haul them to the next event and try to sell them there. There's a lot of logistics involved that people just don't think about. It can eat up a lot of money in a hurry..................and has.


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## grandd7 (Feb 25, 2010)

Regions need to have a 3 leg shoot in one region , that's one reason the numbers are down . Everyone what's a triple crown type shoot .


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## woodsman78 (Jan 26, 2004)

To many orgs. like regions have tried to start up and fallen way short of the mark and failed, as I see it regions is doing the same they seem to lack the character and commitment , to see it thru. This state hopping trying to find more people is a waste of money and time for all involved They would have been better off picking 4 to 6 locations setting up the shoots and building from there its called a foundation something that the shooters and vendor's can work with and learn to trust !!!!


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## Garceau (Sep 3, 2010)

They had zero help from any club in davenport. Matter of fact local club had a shoot same weekend. 

They are not reselling the ranges after each shoot. They are going to use same targets until they get a few holes in them.

Next year he said much less class choices, until it grows then they will look to expand the classes again. 

Will be back in davenport again next year, supposedly a few clubs are going to help.


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## rattlinman (Dec 30, 2004)

Well, when we were discussing a possible first-time location in Missouri, the comment made about which city was willing to offer incentive and a few amounts were thrown around. When he contacts a city, he gives them an estimate of how much "potential" revenue his event will bring in, not a guarantee. There are large money incentives out there to bring in revenue generating events. 

In Stillwater I was told that free memberships were offered in exchange for volunteers, and yes, the targets not being used at the next shoot were being sold. It was enough to cover his cost on a new one.

Fellas, I think Dick is smarter than you all give him credit for. If you think he's truly just throwing tons of money down the drain with no influx coming in to cover it and then some, of well. Think what you want, but he is not losing money.

I have no dog in this hunt so believe what you want.:cocktail:

Cheers!


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## swampy_44 (Nov 15, 2013)

That's funny that you say that, because watching the local news about the regions shoot they made a comment that the shoot would bring in 250,000 dollars to the local economy. ....


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## tmorelli (Jul 31, 2005)

swampy_44 said:


> That's funny that you say that, because watching the local news about the regions shoot they made a comment that the shoot would bring in 250,000 dollars to the local economy. ....


Either every attendee spent $5k or that's some pretty fuzzy math.


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## swampy_44 (Nov 15, 2013)

News also said the tournament was drawing 300 shooters. So 300 shooters with 250,000 to the local economy is what the news said. So I'm guessing those numbers must be coming from the "projections" of what regions told the city.


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## rattlinman (Dec 30, 2004)

tmorelli said:


> Either every attendee spent $5k or that's some pretty fuzzy math.


Exactly. And you know that information is coming directly from Regions. I'm telling ya fellas, he may not be making $300,000 a year like the ASA, but I'll bet ya he's not losing money.


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## tmorelli (Jul 31, 2005)

rattlinman said:


> Exactly. And you know that information is coming directly from Regions. I'm telling ya fellas, he may not be making $300,000 a year like the ASA, but I'll bet ya he's not losing money.


I can't make the math work. There is no way that a city is forking over 5....10....20k to bring Regions to town without doing some homework... Right?

Regions may tell them 300 people, 250k... But Google and a couple of phone calls would tell you differently. 

There is no way Regions isn't bleeding cash at a rate that I couldn't stand.


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## rattlinman (Dec 30, 2004)

I understand your thinking, but there has to be something that we are missing and I know the area Chamber of Commerce does sponsor these type of events. I heard a number that Metro was paying once and it was a crazy amount, but I don't want to state it on here because I can't remember exactly what it was.

So, Dick gives them numbers like the ASA, promises to bring in a large turn out, maybe enters into a multi-year agreement and guarantees money on future or potential growth?

Bleeding cash for one year, sure. Year two comes back around and bleeds more? Then you hear he's planning toward 2016 already? No way it's not producing money in some form. Even a business man with more money than sense could see that to be a wasted investment and would end it.


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## Garceau (Sep 3, 2010)

I wonder what others have - if he would/could stay in one area and build that area. Rather than trying to find other venues each year.

I know he did his best turnout in Okalahoma - make sure to stay there. But I really think his opportunity is up here in the Midwest. Its a long way to an ASA and now a long way to IBO as well. Start pumping it, start getting the word out. Build up the hype is cheap - but I fear maybe the damage is done.

I personally want to see it grow - I love ASA events but if Regions grew and half the drive, you can bet where I would be more often than not.


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## swampy_44 (Nov 15, 2013)

I also would like to see regions grow, and stick around the midwest. They have and put on a good tournament.


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## reylamb (Feb 5, 2003)

Garceau said:


> I wonder what others have - if he would/could stay in one area and build that area. Rather than trying to find other venues each year.
> 
> I know he did his best turnout in Okalahoma - make sure to stay there. But I really think his opportunity is up here in the Midwest. Its a long way to an ASA and now a long way to IBO as well. Start pumping it, start getting the word out. Build up the hype is cheap - but I fear maybe the damage is done.
> 
> I personally want to see it grow - I love ASA events but if Regions grew and half the drive, you can bet where I would be more often than not.


If I were him.....I would do exactly that....

Michigan
Wisconsin
Iowa
Oklahoma
A Regions Championship somewhere......IL maybe? MO maybe?

Those are areas that are not currently served by any organization at the National level (with the exception of IL) that should have the numbers to sustain a competitive circuit.


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

Just surfing and saw the money things, 1000s of dollars.... If so Tallcat (ASA Texas) should look into the graft and corruption  Hey, 300 shooters or near that for the past 3 or 4 years at their state championship.... Hey, just goofing around, but Texas has one big State Championship.


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## shanxalot (Mar 4, 2012)

Let's say if the money was big enough every time you went to a new location! ! And the numbers they were told wasn't what showed up ! Do the think the same location would give the same amount ? So if each new location was given a generous amount why return knowing you won't get an equal amount! And I can tell you nothing was giving to any of the help in stillwater ! And there was a local family there that put in a ton of there time do most of the work and got nothing! Just the same silver tongue promise! ! The organization leadership is lazy for the most part ! So maybe this could be it


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## myjustice400 (Mar 27, 2015)

A couple people I talked to said Richard would maybe give a range of well used targets to the club that helped out.


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## shanxalot (Mar 4, 2012)

Don't believe it


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