# stance-open-neutral-closed and relation to DL



## Twistedx42 (Jan 30, 2015)

Personally I would never recommend for anyone to shoot with a closed stance. I would stick with slightly open or neutral. Possibly shortening draw might help you with your aiming right issue, but without seeing what you form looks like I cant say it will definitely work. Maybe shooting neutral and working on raising the bow right on the spot you are going to aim at would be a good starting point. I think it's a good practice for anyone because the quicker you acquire the target the less time you will be at full draw.


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## widow maker 223 (Sep 7, 2011)

I dont worry about where your sitting after you open your eyes. Stance positions have a lot to do with your hold and pulling through the shot. Closed stance makes the triangle between your back, bow arm, and arrow/draw arm smaller, giving less room for expansion. Depends on the person though. Im right handed, shoot with my right foot parallel to the target, left foot 45* and back 2”. This makes me require very little expansion to get the shot off.


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## lees (Feb 10, 2017)

I shoot with a closed stance, in fact with the right foot slightly behind the left (RH shooter). Part of that is my lower spine isn't normal due to injury and doctors cutting pieces out of it over the years, etc. The other being I tend to be a relaxed shooter and prefer not to have tension in the core vs holding a twist to stay in alignment. 

So my general feeling on stance is to prefer to be comfortable and not something you have to be thinking about at full draw. But that's strictly YMMV and you have to find the right stance for you by regular trial-and-error. Unfortunately there's no formula, just heuristics for good starting points. Have to find what works for you.

As for draw length, what I've found over the years is it's not as easy as you might think to diagnose a problem, especially being too long. You can be a mod setting too long and it'll be great for about 5 shafts or even longer if you're having a good day. So one heuristic I use, not only for tuning, but fitment like draw length, is to see how it performs when I'm tired. Say, at least 30 arrows in and/or not feeling spot-on that day or preferably both. It's especially helpful if I didn't get any sleep the night before or overate and have a mild headache or something like that, and I can make it through 30 arrows. Then evaluate what I got.

The idea is, where you really need your rig to be at its best and most forgiving is at the end of the line when you're at your worst, not just at the start when you're at your best. Draw length is like that for the most part. So you really have to evaluate your rig in both conditions, not just when you're doing well.

What I find is I can be too long and the first end or two is fantastic - it'll feel very solid, bone on bone, perfect execution, etc., and I'll often just pinwheel 5 or 6 arrows in a row. But it starts going downhill after that. Around arrow 15 or thereabouts is when the wild shots start, I'll begin shooting DubbleYouTeeEff 8's here and there. Other symptoms are pulling the ring off to the right just a bit, and a telltale kind of tremble in the bow arm. I can actually cope with it for quite a while, I've even competed with my DL over 1" too long and did respectably well. But too long is too long and that's the set of symptoms I see when I need to shorten it up.

Reason being, the back muscles are just a little too scruntched up and there's just not enough for me to pull through the shot once I start tiring. At that point, I can shorten the DL one mod setting and right away my groups pull back in. Pin doesn't pull to the right and the tremble stops. Might feel a little short when I'm fresh too, which is the deceptive part. But as the round wears on, that's where that extra "margin" of a good drawlength fit really supports you and how you know it's right.

But that's just an example - other folks may have a different symptomology from a draw length problem and may have another way to debug it. But the endurance test is a good one for me for testing bow fitment, so just tossing that idea out there as something to try and see if it helps.

I also like to check my tune towards the end of the day also. The last couple of ends I'll send my bareshafts downrange too and see what I got.

lee.


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## NoviceAddicted (Dec 25, 2015)

Twistedx42 said:


> Personally I would never recommend for anyone to shoot with a closed stance. I would stick with slightly open or neutral. Possibly shortening draw might help you with your aiming right issue, but without seeing what you form looks like I cant say it will definitely work. Maybe shooting neutral and working on raising the bow right on the spot you are going to aim at would be a good starting point. I think it's a good practice for anyone because the quicker you acquire the target the less time you will be at full draw.


I was aiming right when I did the closed eyes and open them test, but did notice with a closed stance my dot seemed steadier and less left or right misses. I don't really like a neutral stance at 61 years, guessing my equilibrium isn't what it used to be and get swaying at times. I already raise the bow on target when drawing. I guess other than shooting closed stance I will have to try shortening D loop a little (it's not that long now) or make another set of strings with slightly shorter DL since I like a certain ratio of string twists and don't want to start doing a lot of twists on string and cables to get a definitive answer. Thanks Twistedx42!


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## NoviceAddicted (Dec 25, 2015)

widow maker 223 said:


> I dont worry about where your sitting after you open your eyes. Stance positions have a lot to do with your hold and pulling through the shot. Closed stance makes the triangle between your back, bow arm, and arrow/draw arm smaller, giving less room for expansion. Depends on the person though. Im right handed, shoot with my right foot parallel to the target, left foot 45* and back 2”. This makes me require very little expansion to get the shot off.


I usually shoot with a stance slightly open stance similar to that. I'm thinking the only other thing aside from shooting closed stance is a slightly shorter DL to see if I can duplicate more steady sight picture with open stance that I had with closed stance using 8x lens and dot. Thanks widow maker 223!


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## lees (Feb 10, 2017)

NoviceAddicted said:


> I was aiming right when I did the closed eyes and open them test, but did notice with a closed stance my dot seemed steadier and less left or right misses. I don't really like a neutral stance at 61 years, guessing my equilibrium isn't what it used to be and get swaying at times. I already raise the bow on target when drawing. I guess other than shooting closed stance I will have to try shortening D loop a little (it's not that long now) or make another set of strings with slightly shorter DL since I like a certain ratio of string twists and don't want to start doing a lot of twists on string and cables to get a definitive answer. Thanks Twistedx42!


Speaking of the swaying with a square stance... Strange but true: rocking back on the feet isn't really due to age and isn't a defect with the square stance itself; it's actually a symptom of being too long on the DL. 

My theory is that being too long moves all the weight - the bow, the arms, etc. - further and further behind you, moving your vertical CG backwards. Typically you arch the back more and more in the struggle too which contributes to it even more. Eventually, you rock back onto the heels....

Don't ask me why I'm suggesting that. But another data point, from a source I won't name or talk about publicly, that might make it worth experimenting with a shorter DL.....

lee.


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## widow maker 223 (Sep 7, 2011)

NoviceAddicted said:


> I usually shoot with a stance slightly open stance similar to that. I'm thinking the only other thing aside from shooting closed stance is a slightly shorter DL to see if I can duplicate more steady sight picture with open stance that I had with closed stance using 8x lens and dot. Thanks widow maker 223!


It does change your DL a little. Loop length will change your draw arm elbow position. Also effecting hold and ability to expand. Dont be afraid to play with things.


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## NoviceAddicted (Dec 25, 2015)

lees said:


> I shoot with a closed stance, in fact with the right foot slightly behind the left (RH shooter). Part of that is my lower spine isn't normal due to injury and doctors cutting pieces out of it over the years, etc. The other being I tend to be a relaxed shooter and prefer not to have tension in the core vs holding a twist to stay in alignment.
> 
> So my general feeling on stance is to prefer to be comfortable and not something you have to be thinking about at full draw. But that's strictly YMMV and you have to find the right stance for you by regular trial-and-error. Unfortunately there's no formula, just heuristics for good starting points. Have to find what works for you.
> 
> ...


All good points lee. One thing I'm trying to eliminate is the fatigue factor lowering DW, and trying GTX cams instead of spiral x etc. I have read your posting a few times and going to read again till it sinks in. One key being my DL may feel a little short when I'm fresh, and how it feels when I'm tired and at my worst towards end. I'm going to have to try a few things, run a few tests, first and easiest one, putting a little shorter D Loop on ( d loop isn't that long now) or make another set of strings with slightly shorter dl to see if I can duplicate steadier sight picture I got with closed stance while using my usual slightly open stance, I haven't tried the closed stance in field archery being indoor season in RI now but thinking a mirror image of open stance should work. Thanks lees!


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## NoviceAddicted (Dec 25, 2015)

lees said:


> Speaking of the swaying with a square stance... Strange but true: rocking back on the feet isn't really due to age and isn't a defect with the square stance itself; it's actually a symptom of being too long on the DL.
> 
> My theory is that being too long moves all the weight - the bow, the arms, etc. - further and further behind you, moving your vertical CG backwards. Typically you arch the back more and more in the struggle too which contributes to it even more. Eventually, you rock back onto the heels....
> 
> ...


Thanks lees!


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## NoviceAddicted (Dec 25, 2015)

widow maker 223 said:


> It does change your DL a little. Loop length will change your draw arm elbow position. Also effecting hold and ability to expand. Dont be afraid to play with things.


I started archery at 58 years and 61 now so I know I have some catching up to do. I run every experiment I can after evaluating if I think it may have positive results. Aside from shooting closed stance I'm thinking I'm going to see if I can run a shorter d loop, d loop on it now not that long so not sure, put some twists in string and cables to shorten DL and keep draw cycle tuning etc. I don't particularly like this option because I like a certain range of twist ratio on strings (approximately .70 twists per inch) or make another set of strings with slightly shorter DL 1/8" to 1/4" at most. I know I'm close on DL but not sure if dialed in, and do like my slightly open stance. This way if shorter dl strings don't have positive results I can put the other fairly new strings back on. Thanks widow maker 223!


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## lees (Feb 10, 2017)

NoviceAddicted said:


> All good points lee. One thing I'm trying to eliminate is the fatigue factor lowering DW, and trying GTX cams instead of spiral x etc. I have read your posting a few times and going to read again till it sinks in. One key being my DL may feel a little short when I'm fresh, and how it feels when I'm tired and at my worst towards end. I'm going to have to try a few things, run a few tests, first and easiest one, putting a little shorter D Loop on ( d loop isn't that long now) or make another set of strings with slightly shorter dl to see if I can duplicate steadier sight picture I got with closed stance while using my usual slightly open stance, I haven't tried the closed stance in field archery being indoor season in RI now but thinking a mirror image of open stance should work. Thanks lees!


As for small adjustments in DL, one thing to keep in mind is that adjusting the limb bolts changes the brace height. That in turn affects your (effective) draw length. So, if you're going down in poundage, that'll raise the BH and give you a longer effective DL. So you might be able to kill two birds with one stone - turning down the peak weight might lengthen the effective DL just enough to let you go to the next shorter setting on your mods (if your bow has mods that is), without a full 1/2" jump. 

As for the d-loop length, yes that's another item you can adjust if you think you're out of alignment on the back end. It's not totally completely independent of your draw length setting, so changing your alignment on the back end can reveal the need to change the DL again. But otherwise yeah treat them as having seperate effects generally....

But like widowmaker says, you have to experiment and find the right setup by trial-and-error. That includes you may have to shoot a particular setup for a while to finally find it's still off a bit. So don't get your heart set on any one setting hard and fast, at least not until you've really shot it for a long while and it really works...

lee.


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## grantmac (May 31, 2007)

If you shoot outdoor/field/3D you'll find an open stance more stable on uneven ground or with a bit of wind. This is especially true for uphill shots where the bow will feel very long and many people close stance slightly. If you start off closed you have nowhere to go.


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## NoviceAddicted (Dec 25, 2015)

lees said:


> As for small adjustments in DL, one thing to keep in mind is that adjusting the limb bolts changes the brace height. That in turn affects your (effective) draw length. So, if you're going down in poundage, that'll raise the BH and give you a longer effective DL. So you might be able to kill two birds with one stone - turning down the peak weight might lengthen the effective DL just enough to let you go to the next shorter setting on your mods (if your bow has mods that is), without a full 1/2" jump.
> 
> As for the d-loop length, yes that's another item you can adjust if you think you're out of alignment on the back end. It's not totally completely independent of your draw length setting, so changing your alignment on the back end can reveal the need to change the DL again. But otherwise yeah treat them as having seperate effects generally....
> 
> ...


I already went down in DW as much as i can, turning limb bolts out and getting these eclipse 27/12 aluminum arrows loaded with 300 grain points as tuned as I can to bow for first time this season. I know if getting technical d loop length doesn't change DL but does change your setup length so understand what you are talking about. I'm going to have to experiment and see what works best. Thanks lees!


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## NoviceAddicted (Dec 25, 2015)

grantmac said:


> If you shoot outdoor/field/3D you'll find an open stance more stable on uneven ground or with a bit of wind. This is especially true for uphill shots where the bow will feel very long and many people close stance slightly. If you start off closed you have nowhere to go.


Real good point! I don't want to change stance drastically for field so I'm going to see what DL adjustment I have to make to get the same stability in sight picture using my slightly to moderately open stance. Thanks grantmac!


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## widow maker 223 (Sep 7, 2011)

lees said:


> As for small adjustments in DL, one thing to keep in mind is that adjusting the limb bolts changes the brace height. That in turn affects your (effective) draw length. So, if you're going down in poundage, that'll raise the BH and give you a longer effective DL. So you might be able to kill two birds with one stone - turning down the peak weight might lengthen the effective DL just enough to let you go to the next shorter setting on your mods (if your bow has mods that is), without a full 1/2" jump.
> 
> As for the d-loop length, yes that's another item you can adjust if you think you're out of alignment on the back end. It's not totally completely independent of your draw length setting, so changing your alignment on the back end can reveal the need to change the DL again. But otherwise yeah treat them as having seperate effects generally....
> 
> ...


All good points.


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## NoviceAddicted (Dec 25, 2015)

Before I went crazy on this I put on drawboard, double checked, put a few twists in string, took a few twists out of cables, untied bottom D loop end and melted a little more off, being at about 3/4" from around 7/8" strong. I got a hair under 1/8" shorter DL and shorter d loop, so total setup is roughly 3/16" to 1/4" shorter. I just have to shoot it and either before or after around 90 shots, I should be able to see if I'm good to go with my regular somewhat open stance.


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## Rick! (Aug 10, 2008)

If you close your stance and things get better, your DL is too long.
In post #17, you're moving in the right direction to feel comfortable with a neutral or open stance. 
1/4" is a big change so you might get the fast/jerky float telling you to try halfway between.
Make sure you haven't become "hard-handed" which makes for a lot of tail chasing when working out stance and float issues.
Keep a record of your changes and note which ones help and which ones make things worse. Adjust accordingly.
I find balance, or swaying is more due to poor core engagement and not positioning hips correctly.
If you rotate your hips to straighten out your lower spine, you engage your glutes and you can feel the balls of your feet carrying your weight properly.
Core engagement is easily done during your exhale to and thru transfer - I feel more settled and stable as my shoulders drop into position. 

This is what I have learned over the past few years with reading, practicing what I've read, higher level coaching and workshops. YMMV.


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## NoviceAddicted (Dec 25, 2015)

Rick! said:


> If you close your stance and things get better, your DL is too long.
> In post #17, you're moving in the right direction to feel comfortable with a neutral or open stance.
> 1/4" is a big change so you might get the fast/jerky float telling you to try halfway between.
> Make sure you haven't become "hard-handed" which makes for a lot of tail chasing when working out stance and float issues.
> ...


I thought I had my DL nailed down, but re thinking it now. I'm going to go by the saying better off being a little short on DL than long, although , I know better to nail down for whatever equipment, release used.
I use an 8x lens 3/64 target peep, and larger dot (was using smaller dot) I like the high magnification and does bring out or magnify any flaws, no pun intended. 
My d loop is pretty short now so can run it a little longer, see how open stance is etc. if I get jerky motions. 
I think you mean not letting hand relax for hard handed. I don't think I'm too bad on that but like a lot of bad habits, you have to stick to game plan, and relax hand, bow arm etc..
I really should keep better records. 
Someone else posted about swaying can be from DL being too long and I took a few shots to work in changes tried neutral stance and I wasn't swaying so think I'm ok on the other. I do try to have good posture after starting to develop a slump that may have developed from working on testing strings, equipment equipment setups, shooting in basement with low beams, pipes to avoid. I think in standing tall, I'm getting the hip rotation just not thinking about it consciously.
I have been using Terry Wunderle's book as a guide, and try to relax muscles not needed after setting up and use back muscles to execute shot using hinge release. 
I try and keep proper core engagement, using right muscles and knowing everything starts from the middle, spine area, core muscles. I don't think about specific muscles aside from trying to relax muscles not needed when in final phase of shot execution. Another bad habit I started awhile back but broke was pulling with my arms. Those bad habits can creep in there if I don't stick to fundamentals. 
It sounds like you are doing great. I'm just trying to hit the next level in my own personal shooting. One saying I have is I want to keep the delusions alive lol. Thanks Rick!!


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## NoviceAddicted (Dec 25, 2015)

Rick! said:


> If you close your stance and things get better, your DL is too long.
> In post #17, you're moving in the right direction to feel comfortable with a neutral or open stance.
> 1/4" is a big change so you might get the fast/jerky float telling you to try halfway between.
> Make sure you haven't become "hard-handed" which makes for a lot of tail chasing when working out stance and float issues.
> ...


I shot today, felt good had decent score for level I'm at. I certainly didn't drop. I'm going to make a new set of strings, standard lengths instead of going 1/8" long on string, 1/8" short on cables, see haow draw cycle feels with everything in spec, and should be around 28.5 DL as stated. I can always open stance some and lengthen D loop since running short loop now. I'm going to go by the adage it's better to be a little short than long on DL, and go from there.


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