# Questions regarding my form



## Yokus (11 mo ago)

Hi everyone, I'm five month into learning archery and shot my first tournament last Saturday with pretty mediocre score (249/360). After the game my friend sent me pics of me shooting and I was surprised to see quite a lot of form issues that I didn't realize while shooting, including some very basic stuff like bow arm elbow rotation. I would appreciate some critiques and suggestions.

I changed my anchor a few days prior to the tournament because for some reason I was shooting the (club's) traditional bow anchoring under the chin at 15m and it was next to impossible to aim. But probably due to unfamiliarity with the new anchor, during the game my anchor point was very inconsistent and sometimes I seemed not to have even reached my full draw as seen in the picture below where my fingers wrapped around my chin instead. Could this be a drawing issue instead, as in not rotating my scapula? (Also you can see, while at anchor, the pressure was in my bow hand's pivot point instead of the meaty part of my thumb. Incredible I didn't notice it while shooting.)










In this picture, my draw elbow is noticeably higher than the guy in black, could it be a sign that I had been using too much upper traps and not enough lats? My bow arm shoulder also seem a bit high compared to his.










Someone told me during practice that I had a high chest at full draw so I've been trying to fix that by tilting my pelvis forward, engaging my core and forcing my back not to arch. Does the chest still look high?









Any inputs are welcome, thanks!


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## chrstphr (Nov 23, 2005)

not alot can be said for the photos as the angles are deceiving. But for what its worth, 

your bow shoulder is fine. It is actually about 2 inches lower than your arrow. For a high bow shoulder, usually the shoulder is above the arrow. 

Your bow hand is great, and bow arm looks correct ( again, angle can be deceiving). Last photo looks like you are leaning out toward your toes, but again, this could just be the angle of the camera shot. 

I don think you are drawing all the way back to alignment, so that is why your fingers are in front of your chin and why your draw elbow is higher than expected. 

My analysis ( limited as it is from these photos ) is you are drawing to your chin and then stopping to anchor regardless where your head is positioned. This also will not be consistent. You should draw to arm alignment with the arrow and then anchor. Usually your fingers will be somewhere at the corner of your mouth back towards the rear. Your draw wrist will be behind your ear. 

You can probably draw another inch or two to get to alignment. Just make sure your arrow is long enough as you draw so you dont shoot your hand. 



Chris


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

Yokus said:


> View attachment 7611951
> 
> 
> Any inputs are welcome, thanks!


I agree with Coach Chris. Right elbow needs to continue to swing around your shoulder, in a clockwise circle MORE behind your head.

Try these drills with a stretch band.






You want this alignment. If black band is the arrow, your right elbow needs to swing around your shoulder to be in line with the black stretch band.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

String is ALMOST to his chin. FOCUS on his elbow, right elbow. Right elbow swing is not complete...not yet.










String has reached his chin. Again. FOCUS on his elbow, the right elbow. RIGHT elbow has continued the clockwise SWING around the shoulder joint.

Here is a series of photos, to show you COMPLETE elbow swing around the shoulder.










Photo #1.
String has not quite reached the chin. String is maybe 1-inch away from anchor.

Photo #2...the middle photo.
String has JUST reached chin. String has reached "anchor". BUT, the RED outline of the right elbow,
shows you that the shooter has NOT completed the right elbow swing. STRING touching your face is NOT a complete draw. You are ONLY at STEP 2.

Photo #3...the right side photo.
STRING is still touching the chin. String has reach "anchor". BUT, the right elbow CONTINUES to swing in a clockwise circle. SEE PURPLE outline for the position of the string elbow.

I like to call this the HUG the WALL exercise.
Use a stretch band, tied into a loop, and get to full draw and ANCHOR...string hand touching your face.
So, with the stretch band as your pretend arrow, and with your right hand at "anchor" stretching the stretch band to what you THINK is full draw,
walk towards any wall. 

Bow hand (left hand) has to touch the wall.
Stretch band must touch the wall, your pretend arrow.
String hand has to TOUCH the wall.
Right forearm must TOUCH the wall.
RIGHT elbow must TOUCH the wall.

BUT, u say, your right elbow touches the wall first.
You cannot get the LEFT hand, and the stretch band AND your right forearm/elbow to ALL touch the wall at the same time.

SO, SWING your right elbow MORE clockwise behind your head,
until you look like this.


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## Yokus (11 mo ago)

chrstphr said:


> My analysis ( limited as it is from these photos ) is you are drawing to your chin and then stopping to anchor regardless where your head is positioned. This also will not be consistent. You should draw to arm alignment with the arrow and then anchor. Usually your fingers will be somewhere at the corner of your mouth back towards the rear. Your draw wrist will be behind your ear.
> Chris


Thank you Coach Chris for your analysis. Now come to think of it, it does seem that I only drew to about my chin and than came to anchor without reaching arm alignment first.

In another thread Alan said that for recurve shooting how to reach the anchor was important so I’m going to video my form tomorrow when I’m at the range and post it here too.


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## Yokus (11 mo ago)

nuts&bolts said:


> View attachment 7613751
> 
> 
> String is ALMOST to his chin. FOCUS on his elbow, right elbow. Right elbow swing is not complete...not yet.
> ...


Thanks for the links and the photos side by side! They are clear and invaluable. I’ll do the hug the wall exercise (ingenious!) with a band tonight and try to remember how it feels like then try to replicate that feeling tomorrow.


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## Yokus (11 mo ago)

So here are the videos of my form from three angles: front, behind, and back. The riser is Winstar II 25" with 16# medium limbs.














At the beginning of the video "Front" I spread my arms out because that was what the group class coach told me to do. It was what he called the "natural shooting direction" (translation mine). He asked me to line up my heels with the target so that they form a straight line, and spread my arms out. After some adjustments with the help of an arrow and moving my rear leg forward or backward to really line them up, he asked me to remember the position of the center of the target on the plunger. This, he said, was my natural shooting direction, and I should do this (positioning heels with my arms out) every time I step on the shooting line and my shoulder should stay immobile during the execution.

It runs contrary to what I've read online where most sources say that you should open your chest a little bit and turn it when you enter the drawing step.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

Yokus said:


> So here are the videos of my form from three angles: front, behind, and back. The riser is Winstar II 25" with 16# medium limbs.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Start with fundamentals.
Then, adjust body position for improving results.











archerych - coach Kim lectures- 3 of 7 - release. .mpg

archerych - coach Kim lectures- 4 of 7 - posture control.mpg

archerych - coach Kim lectures- 5 of 7- grip.mpg

archerych - coach Kim lectures- 6 of 7 - proper release.mpg

archerych - coach Kim lectures- 7 of 7 - shooting a bow.mpg

The group class coach is teaching you VERY VERY basic techniques, appropriate to shooters with ZERO to 3 months experience.

Coach Kim Hyun Tak, in the seven videos,
is demonstrating, teaching techniques more appropriate to shooters with 3 months to 3 years experience.

Follow the techniques demonstrated by Coach Kim Hyun Tak (WORLD class coach)
and see if your shooting accuracy improves. Pretty sure if you use the Coach Kim techniques,
your shooting will improve dramatically.

Your grip needs MUCH MUCH work.

Your bow hand fingers need to CURL like Coach Kim.










Here is a picture of Jake Kamkinski, showing the other side of the bow hand. FINGERS curled.










COMBINE fingers curled with a FINGER sling,
and your shooting will improve.









How To Make Your Own Finger Sling for Archery | Shoelace Finger Sling DIY


The finger sling is one of the more common things that archers make on their own. I'll show you some tricks to make yours comfortable, that won't loosen and ...




www.youtube.com





Finger sling from a shoelace.









Make your own finger sling! (Archery)


Using a finger sling in archery in a proper way can boost your scores, and with that, your confidence. Rather than buying an expensive pre-fabricated one, yo...




www.youtube.com


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

Yokus said:


> So here are the videos of my form from three angles: front, behind, and back. The riser is Winstar II 25" with 16# medium limbs.



Yokus. Your alignment needs work, meaning what direction your shoulders point.
Your Wedge is incorrect.

Two freeze frames from the 2nd video.










You have ZERO twist in the upper body. THIs is bad.
With feet in the exact same position, I would TWIST your upper half of body, at the hips
to create the "wedge"...the triangle.

I would get your two shoulders, pointing more clockwise at the target,
with feet pointing in the exact same position.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

Yokus. If I hold a broomstick touching both shoulder blades,
I want your shoulder blades NOT parallel to the arrow, when you are at full draw AND anchor.


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## Yokus (11 mo ago)

Thanks, Alan. As I'm having a tough Monday at work, I'll study these videos these couple of days and make a rough training list. I'll come back with more questions I'm sure.


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## saltywetman (8 mo ago)

nuts&bolts said:


> Start with fundamentals.
> Then, adjust body position for improving results.
> 
> 
> ...


Hi Alan, is the elbow actually supposed to be high or more in line with the shoulders so that you're forming almost a straight line like a T? The video of coach Kim has him telling the student to raise the elbow higher so that it is more like one side of a Y than a T. I always thought the ideal position of the elbow was to be more in line with the shoulder rather than angled upwards


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

saltywetman said:


> Hi Alan, is the elbow actually supposed to be high or more in line with the shoulders so that you're forming almost a straight line like a T? The video of coach Kim has him telling the student to raise the elbow higher so that it is more like one side of a Y than a T. I always thought the ideal position of the elbow was to be more in line with the shoulder rather than angled upwards


So, Coach Kim Hyun Tak is a world class coach.

I call it RESULTS based tuning. So, you will find hundreds of opinions all over the internet.
FIND what gives you RESULTS.










Change Hye Jin did this at 70 meters. That's 76.5 yards with a RECURVE.










Hmmmm. Elbow is HIGHER than arrow. Like one side of capital letter Y. Hmmmmm. Let's see the 2nd shot at 76.5 yards.










Hmmmm. Let's look at that elbow again, for shot #3.










BUT, I thought/I heard that the "IDEAL" position is elbow is / should be MORE inline with shoulders?
Well, let's see her 3rd shot at 76.5 yards.










So, find the height of your elbow, that allows YOU to shoot the tightest groups in your life,
at YOUR max consistent shooting distance.

I NEVER teach any of my students with elbow IN line with tops of shoulders.
I also teach the higher elbow, for my students.

My barebow cadet recurve student (under 18 years old) just took 2nd place, at barebow recurve for Field Archery Nationals. FIND what gives YOU results.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

Park Hyun Sung. One of the best recurve shooters of all time.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

Brady Ellison. One of the best US based recurve archers.



















So, will YOU shoot better, tighter groups, if you lift up your elbow?
It's a start. There are many many other things to get amazing groups downrange. FIND a local recurve coach
who actually shoots the same style you do. If you shoot barebow, find a coach show actually shoot's barebow.
If you shoot Olympic recurve, find a local coach who shoots Olympic recurve.

Nope, these two styles are NOT the same thing. Little nuances that are different.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

John Demmer III for barebow archery form.










Yup, even for barebow, elbow UP higher, like one half of the capital letter Y.

Allen Eagleton. Another famous barebow guy.










These two are some of the best in the world, for barebow archery.


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## saltywetman (8 mo ago)

Thanks for your input Alan. I'm still learning and been just watching as many YouTube videos and currently reading kisik Lee's book. Was just asking questions to clarify and better my understanding on what is ideal or not. 

The issue I ran into with a high draw elbow was that I was tensing up my upper traps and shoulder was raising up along with the elbow rather than being able to keep shoulders level while only lifting elbow. 

However, I was not intentionally lifting my elbow to be higher. It was just the way I was drawing the bow. I have since tried to work on keeping the elbow a bit more level which I feel that I am finally using some of the correct muscles of the middle lower back at full draw and was able to get better alignment as a result. Maybe once I become more comfortable I will try to get the elbow higher without shoulder lift. 

Your knowledge is appreciated


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

saltywetman said:


> Thanks for your input Alan. I'm still learning and been just watching as many YouTube videos and currently reading kisik Lee's book. Was just asking questions to clarify and better my understanding on what is ideal or not.
> 
> The issue I ran into with a high draw elbow was that I was tensing up my upper traps and shoulder was raising up along with the elbow rather than being able to keep shoulders level while only lifting elbow.
> 
> ...


Keep shoulders/collar bones parallel to the arrow.

If you are tensing UPPER trap, on the string side, then you also have a SKY HIGH shoulder on the string side.
Practice with a stretch band in front of the bathroom mirror.

Try this exercise.






Notice, that the instructor NEVER EVER lifted the right clavicle throughout the ENTIRE stretch of the stretch band.
U try in front of the bathroom mirror. UPPER trap has zero involvement. The first half of the draw is a DOWNWARD pull and swing/arc around the shoulder complex. Hence, the first half of the draw is middle trap, lower trap, and rhomboid. Some levator scapulae.










Right elbow (if RH SHOOTER) will LIFT the elbow/forearm up to EYEBALL height.
Of course, ignore that the instructor is facing the camera. U will be pointing your nose at the target.










Stretch band is stretched maybe 7 inches total away from the bow hand. Consider this step pulling the bowstring about an inch past brace height. ELBOW is starting the DOWNWARD arc, the string side upper arm is ARCING BACK around the shoulder complex and down from eyeball height. You can see the red TRACE line, the trajectory of the elbow...as you ROTATE back and DOWN from eyeball height.










STRETCH band is now 12-inches from the bow hand. Consider this at 5-inches past brace height.
TIP of elbow is definitely arcing DOWN and back. TIP of elbow has DROPPED from eyeball height to tip of nose height. NOTICE that the clavicles have NOT budged, the two shoulders are STILL DEAD LEVEL. RIGHT shoulder is NOT sky high, never was sky high, and the RIGHT shoulder has stayed DOWN at the same height as the left shoulder this entire time. THIS means RIGHT side trap is NOT-activated. NO tension, NO strain in the neck muscle, NO strain in the upper traps. ALL the work is in the middle and lower traps, and the rhomboids. Keep the core muscles STRONG, and TIGHT. Do not twist the hips.










RIGHT elbow (string side elbow) continues the DOWNWARD swing, continues to travel BACK away from the bow hand. Right elbow (string side elbow) is now at lips height...all the way down to LIPS height from the starting EYEBALLS height. Even though the instructor is looking at the camera, YOU will be looking at a pretend target, while standing in front of the bathroom mirror, so you can keep BOTH clavicles level while you RE_TRAIN how you pull back a stretch band.










Now, you are at 3/4 draw, your string side wrist is inches in front of your chin.
TIP of elbow is at CHIN height, and the downward swing is complete and now your right elbow (string side elbow) swings in a horizontal circle going back behind you. Your hand (string hand) is *6-inches in front of your neck*,
yes, you are swinging the string hand WIDE of final position.










You are now CLOSING the right elbow, the right elbow is swinging further around your shoulder
and as your right forearm CLOSES at the elbow, the forearm is starting to touch the right bicep
and the string hand is moving TOWARDS your neck....hand was 6-inches away from neck, hand is 4-inches away from neck as you CLOSE the elbow angle, hand is 2-inches away from neck as you CLOSE the right elbow angle even tighter. SHOULDERS level, clavicles level, there is NO tension in the right upper trap.










Right elbow is FULLY closed.
STRING hand is touching neck, but RIGHT forearm is LEVEL below the chin!!!
The elbow to wrist to finger tab are all at the same height as your grip, UNDER the arrow shelf.
OH NOOOO! The string arm is TOO LOW.

THIS is on purpose.
You have completed the DOWN SWING of the right elbow.
You are also at FULL STRETCH on the stretch band, and the entire string arm is TOO LOW, below final anchor height, ON PURPOSE.










NOW, we start the part you have not mastered.
THE UPPER trap has NO involvement here.
We are going to SWING ONLY the upper arm (humerus) to LIFT the right elbow
and MAINTAIN two level shoulders, two level clavicles.

We are going to abduct the humerus (going to lift the right upper arm (string side))...without lifting your right clavicle.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

So, the final step for drawing your recurve bow,
is to lift the string side elbow UP higher than your string side wrist.
String hand lifts UP to anchor
and string side elbow lifts up HIGHER than your wrist, to create the best leverage angle
for your forearm bones, cuz the forearm (string side) needs to pull AWAY from the bowhand...bow hand is down at the grip.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

You are connected to your bow in only TWO locations.
String hand, and bow hand. So, you need to pull the two HANDS apart.
So, the most efficient angle for the string side elbow is to create a straight line
from string side elbow, to string hand, to bow hand. THIS means the string side elbow MUST be higher than your string side wrist...for best results.


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## saltywetman (8 mo ago)

Oh okay, I think my misconception is seeing the top view picture where the draw elbow to wrist to arrow form its own straight line and I assumed that it was also supposed to form a straight line when viewing from the side as well. The way you explained it, even with the raised elbow, the alignment still forms a straight line with arrow even on top down view. This makes sense now. Thanks for the explanation!


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## G.Lizard (3 mo ago)

Just a suggestion to experiment for 
the higher anchors. I've been shooting traditional for about 20 years and have recently picked up Olympic style and moving into Barebow. 

-higher bow arm shoulder. The lower olympic shoulder with a high anchor feels incongruent to me. You will see the Demmer school et al. using a higher bow arm shoulder. This works in conjunction with a more hunched posture, and is moving in the direct of successful traditional styles. 

Also, look Howard Hill's style. Very high shoulder. Yes it applies to target shooting just as well as shooting apples off peoples' heads and killing a moving deer...or lions or elephants. 

This would make the 'high' elbow not so high. Again, do some experimenting and see if things don't naturally line up a little better. May not work for you. Having gotten fairly proficient in both styles, I feel this is a key fundamental difference, at least for my body structure.

To be clear, higher bow shoulder for a higher anchor, NOT for under-chin anchor. 

Cheers.


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