# Jr. World Archery Championships!!!



## CM JOAD (Oct 9, 2005)

*Schedule*

Here is the schedule:

14th October Team Captains Meeting and Opening ceremony 
15th October Official Practice and Equipment Inspection 
16th October Qualification Round - Long Distances 
17th October Qualification Round - Short Distances 
18th October Individual Elimination for all categories 
19th October A.M. Individual 1/4 and 1/2 finals for all categories;
P.M. Team 1/8 Elimination Round for all categories 
20th October Team 1/4 finals, 1/2 finals and finals for all categories 
21st October 10:00-17:00 Individual Finals (1/2 + Medals) 
22nd October World Cup Final


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## Nicely (Jun 13, 2002)

Kendal is with the Team and initial reports are very very windy and they are told to expect more of the same as this is the norm for this area.


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## CM JOAD (Oct 9, 2005)

Nicely said:


> Kendal is with the Team and initial reports are very very windy and they are told to expect more of the same as this is the norm for this area.


How does Kendall do in the wind? At least everyone is shooting in the same conditions.


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## RecordKeeper (May 9, 2003)

I am very, very interested to see how my good friends Cory and Aaron shoot in Mexico!!!

Go for it, guys!!!!


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## XCalibre (Aug 31, 2006)

something that surprised me about the athletes that qualified was that the compound divisions don't have very many competitiors in them. for example, in the junoir male _recurve_ divison, there are 75 entrants, whereas the junior male _compound_ division only has 38. the same ratios are kept pretty much in all the other divisions. is that normal for junior/cadet world events?

:RockOn:


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## BILL B (Jun 21, 2003)

What this says is that recurves are more popular on a world basis than compounds. Here in the US the split is about 50/50 but in some countries it is 100/0. Another thing may be that compound teams throughout the world are not funded as fully as recurve teams and the cost of flights to Mexico from places other than Canada and the US are expensive.


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## timppa (Feb 29, 2004)

I am in Mexico with Finnish team, I post pictures everyday.

Pictures:
www.timorantanen.com


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## jhinaz (Mar 1, 2003)

Timppa,
Those are wonderful pictures that you have shared with us.... and sooooo many! Very, very nice of you. - John


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## RecordKeeper (May 9, 2003)

timppa said:


> I am in Mexico with Finnish team, I post pictures everyday.
> 
> Pictures:
> www.timorantanen.com


Outstanding!

Thank you so much!!!


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## Canjapan2003 (Jun 3, 2006)

*Okayama Asako*

I'll be cheering for Asako Okayama from Japan in the cadet recurve womens division. 
I hope she does well in representing her country and school. 
Go Asako !!!
Gambatte!! 

Canjapan


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## X-10000 (Feb 21, 2004)

Hi Timppa,
Thank you for sharing your pics. I'm from a small island in Malaysia called Labuan. We have two boys from our tiny island representing Malaysia. Their names are Hazlan and Azizul. If you get a chance to meet them and their team mate Nyamuk, say Hi and wish them all the best from me. And all the best to the you and the Finnish team.

Thanks and regards,
Jamie


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## mbu (Oct 22, 2003)

All available results are being posted live at the organizers' website. The results after 30 arrows are already available here:

http://www.archeryworldcup.org/User...ions/06_JuniorWC_Merida_qualification_RJM.pdf


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## Nicely (Jun 13, 2002)

This link takes you to the results page you can than click on the dvision you're interested in.

http://www.idey.gob.mx/fita/results.htm


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## timppa (Feb 29, 2004)

Some new pics updated.


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## The_Arc_Angel (Sep 22, 2006)

*Go Team CANADA Go! Good Luck Les Rousseau*

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## X-10000 (Feb 21, 2004)

Timmpa,

Keep up the good work!
Many Thanks for the pics.:thumbs_up


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## RecordKeeper (May 9, 2003)

To those who are there...... 

Was it windy? The scores aren't what our folks are capable of.


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## timppa (Feb 29, 2004)

Recordkeeper said:


> To those who are there......
> Was it windy? The scores aren't what our folks are capable of.


Yes, it was windy.


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## Huntmaster (Jan 30, 2003)

Nice pics!!! It's great that you are able to post so many!

Couple of notes: *Oh the atrocities! All the untucked shirts!!!!*

Why can't we put the US team in something becides t-shirts?! Don't the Ausies and Chineese look good?


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## CM JOAD (Oct 9, 2005)

*Electronic Scoring*

I talked to my son Corey last night, and he told me about the electronic scoring. After each end, the archers enter their scores into a key pad which posts the scores on the scoreboard. They must also have this system tied into the website, because the scores are being posted in short order. Very nice!


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## CM JOAD (Oct 9, 2005)

*Elite 8*

Seven USA archers have made it to the elite 8 round today in the individual elimination rounds: 

Paul Tedford and John Fleury in the Junior Compound Men Class;

Erica Anschutz in the Junior Compound Women Class;

Corey Muellenbach and Adam Wruck in the Cadet Compound Men Class;

Kendal Nicely and Amber Christianson in the Cadet Compound Women Class.


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## sundevilarchery (May 27, 2005)

Way To Go Compounders!


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## blackclydesdale (Jan 26, 2006)

Why am I not seeing Allison Lorenti's name anywhere for the USA Female Jr. Division, Hope she is ok! ukey: Nice going Kendall & Amber!!! WE ARE ALL ROOTING FOR YOU!!!!


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## CHPro (May 21, 2002)

I thought Allison finished 4th and was the Alternate for the Female Jr Compound team? If so, I don't believe alternates attend unless one of the top 3 is unable to make the tournament.

>>------>


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

> Seven USA archers have made it to the elite 8 round today in the individual elimination rounds:


Check that -

We have one recurver who made it to the elite 8 (and now final four!) - Forrest Blakley (Cadet male recurve).

He won his first match today to get him into the medal rounds, then lost in the semi-finals by one point (this is sounding familiar). He will shoot for bronze tommorrow.

I suspect the Cadet male recurve team will do very well. Forrest, Glen and Aaron are all great match competitors with nerves of steel.

Go Forrest Go! 

Go Team USA!

Man, I wish I were there.

John.


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## Jim1440 (May 14, 2004)

Great job Forrest! (and great job John for passing on some of those "nerves of steel"!

Go TEAM USA!

Jim



limbwalker said:


> We have one recurver who made it to the elite 8 (and now final four!) - Forrest Blakley (Cadet male recurve).
> 
> He won his first match today to get him into the medal rounds, then lost in the semi-finals by one point (this is sounding familiar). He will shoot for bronze tommorrow.
> 
> ...


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## c3hammer (Sep 20, 2002)

Looks like Paul Tedford and John Flurry shoot against each other in the 1/4 final for a spot in the gold medal match of the Compound Juniors!

Sorry, but being from Montana I have to root for the home boy Paul to take it all 

Cheers,
Pete


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## CM JOAD (Oct 9, 2005)

Corey Muellenbach and Adam Wruck won their first match today in the Cadet Compound Male Division, but both lost their second match. They shoot against each other on Saturday for the Bronze medal!

Not only are Corey and Adam both on the USA team, they are both classmates in Sartell, MN and were best of friends prior to getting involved with Archery 2-1/2 years ago.

Last year at the National Outdoor, Adam finished 4th and Corey finished 5th. This spring at the National Indoor, Adam again finished 4th and Corey finished 5th. At the National Outdoor this year, Corey finished 2nd and Adam finished 3rd. At the Jr. Indoor Trials, Corey also finished 2nd and Adam finished 3rd. They are now in Mexico and are going to be 3rd and 4th.

Add to all of that, they have the same Coach, Linda Beck, who is also in Mexico with the USA TEAM.

Are there enough similarities here for a good story?


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## CM JOAD (Oct 9, 2005)

I forgot to mention a couple of other similarities, Corey and Adam are both members of the Central Minnesota JOAD (coached by Linda Beck) and both achieved their JOAD Olympian status at this year's National Indoor.


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## archery_dad (Nov 29, 2005)

Any news on the cadet girls compound?

Way to go Adam and Corey !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    :grin: :grin:


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Wow CM,

What a position for Linda to be in! She must be so proud of both of those boys.

Forrest Won his first match against the 2nd ranked Italian boy this morning, then lost in the semi-final by one point. Now he faces the Ukranian for the Bronze...

Boy, this is eerie. Let's see... At the Olympics, we beat 2nd ranked Italy, lost in the semi's by one point, then faced Ukraine for the bronze... I think I know how he feels 

Congratulations to all the U.S. archers. They are gaining invaluable experience right now.

John.


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## c3hammer (Sep 20, 2002)

Kendal Nicely is in the bronze medal match against Lucy O'Sullivan of England with a 112 - 114 loss to Anastasia ANASTASIO of Italy in the semi finals.

Amber Christensen was 6th with a 107 - 109 loss to Martha Hernandez of Mex. in the 1/4 finals.

Elissa Falconer was 11th and also lost to Martha Henandez 106 - 107.

The gals all our team lost to are both in the finals against each other.

Nice shooting ladies! Go Kendal!

Cheers,
Pete


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## bigdawg (Feb 26, 2003)

How about Canadian Doris Jones. She won Vegas indoors this year for women unlimited, set several world outdoor fita records this year one being a 1399 and has proven to be one of the worlds strongest female archers. Just a note, she is competing at this event with a broken thumb. She got into a car accident a week before the event. Pretty good shooting for being injured. 

Congrats Doris!


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## Hoytemgood (Aug 19, 2006)

*World Record*

Looks like the boy's cadet recurve team just broke a WORLD RECORD!!!!!

Awesome shooting. That is really cool. Way to go US. Keep up the good work.:happy:


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## Hoytemgood (Aug 19, 2006)

*Short Lived*

Well that record was short lived. The Chinese Taipei just broke the US' record from the last round. US appears to have lost to the Ukraine and did not make it to the medal round. Still awesome shootin' boys. Great job.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Not surprised to hear that 221 was a world record. Too bad it had to be broken so soon, but I had no doubt those 3 boys could do it. Like I said, they are a tough group to contend with.

Now, if we can just learn to beat the Ukranians! aaaarrrrggghhhh!  

Forrest gets one more chance to medal, and beat a Ukranian in the process. I have a feeling about this one 

Congratulations on a recurve world record, if even just for a few minutes. At least now they know what they are capable of.

Best of luck to all still playing. 

John.


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## Nicely (Jun 13, 2002)

Kendal Nicely started her semi final match off with a 6. She said it was a good shot we haven't re shot the arrow to see if there was a problem.She only dropped 4 more points in her remaining 11 arrows.She ran into a very good Italian shooter who kept everything in the yellow and never opened the door.

Wind has been the theme for the week. 

As far as the world records there will be several in the team events as few if any have entries in the past. I was told there has to be a minimum 6 teams to qualify for world records. Can anyone confirm this? They do list a female cadet team setting a world record with only 5 teams.


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## CM JOAD (Oct 9, 2005)

Nicely said:


> Kendal Nicely started her semi final match off with a 6. She said it was a good shot we haven't re shot the arrow to see if there was a problem.She only dropped 4 more points in her remaining 11 arrows.She ran into a very good Italian shooter who kept everything in the yellow and never opened the door.
> 
> Wind has been the theme for the week.
> 
> As far as the world records there will be several in the team events as few if any have entries in the past. I was told there has to be a minimum 6 teams to qualify for world records. Can anyone confirm this? They do list a female cadet team setting a world record with only 5 teams.


If that is true, it seems like a silly rule. The world record is based on a team's score, so what difference would the number of teams in the competition make?


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## CM JOAD (Oct 9, 2005)

*Two Golds for USA*

It looks like the two USA Junior Compound teams both won Gold!


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## Reed (Jun 18, 2002)

bronze for team canada, and a new WR.:darkbeer: 

Reed


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## Nicely (Jun 13, 2002)

All US compound teams won gold.

I was on hand for the matches. If no one has witnessed a team round in short there is no time to take a breath, let down or take you're time in any way unlike individual rounds where time is not a huge factor. USA Cadet women shot against Mexico in the semi's and had a 6 point lead going into the last end. The wind picked up and team USA shot some 8's and it came down to Kendals last 2 arrows needing 18 to win she approached the line with 23 SECONDS TO WALK TO THE LINE, LOAD AND SHOOT BOTH ARROWS. She shot a nine and with 4 SECONDS LEFT SHE STARTED TO DRAW HER LAST ARROW WITH EVERYONE YELLING SHOOT, SHOOT SHE GOT IT OFF AT THE BUZZER FOR AN X. praise the lord as there was devine intervention.

The Finals were as exciting as the US trailled by 3 points going into the last end facing a very good Great Britain Team. All the US girls stepped up and put the pressure on with a 57 to come from behind and win. No excitment in Achery........ tell my heart that one. Great job Ellissa, Amber and Kendal.. 

Congrats to the Junior boys, Junior girls and the cadet boys for there exciting 
victories as well. 

Matt Nicely


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## timppa (Feb 29, 2004)

Nicely said:


> I was told there has to be a minimum 6 teams to qualify for world records. Can anyone confirm this? They do list a female cadet team setting a world record with only 5 teams.


FITA rule:
5.4.3 Team World Records may be established at a tournament at which there is competition between at least 1 team from three different countries. Each team will be made up of three women or three men.

I think someone has understood wrong, if there is not enough teams they will not get World Champion title and no World Champion medals.


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## MerlinApexDylan (Oct 14, 2002)

A big congrats goes out to Nathan Cameron from my club here in Edmonton for being so solid in the single matchplay. You make us proud. Good job being part of the bronze winning compound team also Nathan, all you guys really came together as a team and holy heck nice WR shooting. 

Congrats to everyone else on the team. I hope you enjoyed the experience.

Dylan


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## CM JOAD (Oct 9, 2005)

timppa said:


> I am in Mexico with Finnish team, I post pictures everyday.
> 
> Pictures:
> www.timorantanen.com


Tim, you should get a gold medal for the awesome photos that you posted! Thank you very, very much from everyone that couldn't be there.


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## TomB (Jan 28, 2003)

> FITA rule:
> 5.4.3 Team World Records may be established at a tournament at which there is competition between at least 1 team from three different countries. Each team will be made up of three women or three men.
> 
> I think someone has understood wrong, if there is not enough teams they will not get World Champion title and no World Champion medals.


Well they did not even acknowledge that there was a ladies compound competition. No recognition for the ladies of any of the cadet ladies compound or junior ladies compound, no flowers, no medals, no nothing for any of the ladies from the countries that competed. It was a shame.


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## IM2BZ2P2 (Oct 7, 2004)

_4.7.3 A World Championship will not be held for any category for which preliminary entries reflect fewer than twelve (12) individuals and six (6) teams. For the Junior and Cadet categories, the minimum numbers will be eight (8) individuals and four (4) teams. _

Are 'preliminary entries' perhaps different to actual competitors on the day?


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## Jim Pruitte (May 27, 2002)

IM2BZ2P2 said:


> _4.7.3 A World Championship will not be held for any category for which preliminary entries reflect fewer than twelve (12) individuals and six (6) teams. For the Junior and Cadet categories, the minimum numbers will be eight (8) individuals and four (4) teams. _
> 
> Are 'preliminary entries' perhaps different to actual competitors on the day?


The Junior Compound Women had four teams. The Cadet Compound had five. Why were no medals awarded???


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## Nicely (Jun 13, 2002)

Quote 
_________________________________________________________________
The Junior Compound Women had four teams. The Cadet Compound had five. Why were no medals awarded???
____________________________


'preliminary entries' in 4.7.3 as listed by IM2BZ2P2 above is the key phrase. Entries must be made 90 days prior to the event. The USA and Mexico were late.

FITA had an opportunity to make this right on the field in Merida they spent all day Saturday saying in effect they were looking into it never giving us a yes or no answer. We found out when the ceremony ended with not only no championship medals but NO MENTION OR ACKNOWLEDGEMENT OF EITHER ACCOMPLISHMENTS OF THE US TEAMS OR THE SILVER AND BRONZE MEDAL WINNERS.

The NAA dropped the ball on the preliminary registration their reason is the qualifing event took place after the deadline and they were not sure they would field a team. This is ridiculous and even if it were a concern the registration fee is only $100 take a leap of faith.

So the NAA screwed up, FITA could have fixed it and didn't, and 6 US Girls pay the price as well as 4 other teams, great way to "Grow the sport" NAA and FITA.


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## TomB (Jan 28, 2003)

I find the cicumstances around the late entry very bizarre. Someone in the NAA entered the gentlemen, recurve and compound. Even the ladies recurve was entered as well as all the individual entries. How difficult is it to make a blanket entry for every possible person and team going especially when we knew we were going to have trials for all the individuals and teams months and months ago?

FITA indeed had an opportunity to make this right and they choked. In my opinion someone should loose their job over this one.

tom


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## Jim Pruitte (May 27, 2002)

This is indeed a shame. When was the last time that the US DID'NT field a full team going into the Jr Worlds.

My hat is off to these young ladies that worked hard and represented the US proudly.

Jim


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## CM JOAD (Oct 9, 2005)

Is this one more example where the NAA considers compound shooters as "secondary citizens"? Maybe the NAA should "make it right" and award some medals to the girls? Who would care if they are not "official"... they were justifiable earned and deserve to be in the girl possession! If the NAA won't do anything, then maybe the parents of the USA team members should get them some medals. I know that I would certainly be willing to contribute!


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## c3hammer (Sep 20, 2002)

When I heard about this I was deeply saddened and quite frankly pissed off! 

How could any adult with even a shred of decency allow these 18 kids to pay so dearly for such a simple thing as a paper work error? I find it unbelievable that these kids have to pay that high a price. Especially when the medals and flowers were supposedly there ready to go.

Talk about bringing our sport into disrepute. To all those involved, shame on you :embara: 

Cheers,
Pete


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## c3hammer (Sep 20, 2002)

c3hammer said:


> To all those involved, shame on you :embara:


To make sure that is read correctly, it should say "To all those involved in letting or causing this happen, shame on you".

Cheers,
Pete


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## CM JOAD (Oct 9, 2005)

Nicely said:


> All US compound teams won gold.
> 
> I was on hand for the matches. If no one has witnessed a team round in short there is no time to take a breath, let down or take you're time in any way unlike individual rounds where time is not a huge factor. USA Cadet women shot against Mexico in the semi's and had a 6 point lead going into the last end. The wind picked up and team USA shot some 8's and it came down to Kendals last 2 arrows needing 18 to win she approached the line with 23 SECONDS TO WALK TO THE LINE, LOAD AND SHOOT BOTH ARROWS. She shot a nine and with 4 SECONDS LEFT SHE STARTED TO DRAW HER LAST ARROW WITH EVERYONE YELLING SHOOT, SHOOT SHE GOT IT OFF AT THE BUZZER FOR AN X. praise the lord as there was devine intervention.
> 
> ...


USA Compound Teams = 4 Golds

USA Recurve Teams = 0 Medals

Remind me. Which teams were funded?


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## Canadian Buck (Apr 7, 2004)

c3hammer said:


> When I heard about this I was deeply saddened and quite frankly pissed off!
> 
> How could any adult with even a shred of decency allow these 18 kids to pay so dearly for such a simple thing as a paper work error? I find it unbelievable that these kids have to pay that high a price. Especially when the medals and flowers were supposedly there ready to go.
> 
> ...


Exactly my sentiments as well. Our Canadian Cadet Female Compound shooters were very sad when they found out that they would not be recognized for their Bronze medal. This was not right! Something needs to be changed for the future as it is not fair to these young athletes. They shot very well, represented their countries and zero recognition for it. Very sad indeed.
Our Junior Male Compound team also earned a bronze medal. These young men in our own ceremony on the podium presented the Cadet girls with the flowers they (the boys) were given. It was a nice thing to do but still doesn't give these young ladies the recognition they deserved.

Shame on the FITA organization.

Canadian Buck
David Cornish


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## timppa (Feb 29, 2004)

Nicely said:


> Quote
> _________________________________________________________________
> The Junior Compound Women had four teams. The Cadet Compound had five. Why were no medals awarded???
> ____________________________
> ...


Same thing happened in World Field 2006. This problem is only with the big countries who thinks that they can do what ever they want and they don´t have to follow rules.

FITA newsletter may 2006



> World Field Championships in Gothenburg: MINIMUM NOT REACHED
> Dear President, Dear Secretary General
> I want to draw your attention that we were very close not to have a championship in the Women’s
> Recurve, Women’s Barebow and Women’s Team event in the World Field Championships in
> ...


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## IM2BZ2P2 (Oct 7, 2004)

timppa said:


> Same thing happened in World Field 2006. This problem is only with the big countries who thinks that they can do what ever they want and they don´t have to follow rules.
> 
> FITA newsletter may 2006


There's probably some good to come out of it - what's the bet the USA remembers to get World Championship entries in on time in the future?


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## CM JOAD (Oct 9, 2005)

IM2BZ2P2 said:


> There's probably some good to come out of it - what's the bet the USA remembers to get World Championship entries in on time in the future?


Maybe not. They were only compounds anyway......


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## IM2BZ2P2 (Oct 7, 2004)

TomB said:


> FITA indeed had an opportunity to make this right and they choked. In my opinion someone should loose their job over this one.


Looking at it as a outsider (I was not a supporter of any of the compound girls teams) FITA perhaps did the right thing. If they had broken the rules it would have been setting a precedent. Rules are rules (however much I fall foul of them ) and it is not as though FITA had not pointed this same thing out for the WC Field event just a few months before. This way NOCs should now make an effort to get preliminary entries in on time to WC (and other) events.

What's not fair is that the kids get stuffed around by errors on the part of adults. But hopefully when they are adults they will remember what it was like and take care not to do the same.


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## spotshooter (Mar 3, 2003)

I have not had a chance to read all the posts, so I apolgize if this point has been stated already. The 90 day rule might make sense to someone who didn't have a kid at the team trials, but to participate in the trials, pre-registration was required (by early July, I think), so the NAA KNEW IN ADVANCE THAT THE U.S. WOULD HAVE JR. AND CADET FEMALE COMPOUND TEAMS!!!! As far as I am concerned, that is not a valid excuse.


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## TomB (Jan 28, 2003)

IM2BZ2P2 said:


> Looking at it as a outsider (I was not a supporter of any of the compound girls teams) FITA perhaps did the right thing. If they had broken the rules it would have been setting a precedent. Rules are rules (however much I fall foul of them ) and it is not as though FITA had not pointed this same thing out for the WC Field event just a few months before. This way NOCs should now make an effort to get preliminary entries in on time to WC (and other) events.
> 
> What's not fair is that the kids get stuffed around by errors on the part of adults. But hopefully when they are adults they will remember what it was like and take care not to do the same.



Point taken, but rules without compassion is disrespectful to all and the precursor to totalitarianism. How can one justify punishing the innocent as well as the quilty? FITA's point could have been made by acknowledging the accomplishment of the archers at the ceremony with applause and flowers and then making the statement that no medals are being awarded due to the negligence of national NGB's. The medals were there on the table ready to be presented according to witnesses on the field, chiefly the girls who had been told that they should prepare for the medal ceremony.

Yes, I think they learned something: that lack of attention to detail by a few can have great consequences on the many.

tom


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## Huntmaster (Jan 30, 2003)

This entire incident is disgraceful  :thumbs_do 

By no means should the US been late on submitting their teams! ESPECIALLY IF IT'S HAPPENED BEFORE! This needs to be an issue on the BOG meeting. I'll be sending a note to request this be addressed in the March meeting, and I'll express my feelings, which I think everyone here should do.

If the teams are not, or can not be registered for the event, we don't need to send anyone in the division on the pretense that all is well. This is a democratic system, and that relies on honesty. I think this brings into question the very integrity of the NAA, and will press this issue as much as I can.

I'm all for the NAA, and believe in what they are doing, but this is unsettling.


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## Hoytemgood (Aug 19, 2006)

Okay, I guess I am a little slow on the up take here. The allegation is that the US or really the NAA failed to enter the Women's Jr Compound Team and Women's Cadet Compound team before the deadline. 

So if that is the case, 
1. why were the teams allowed to shoot? and 
2. Why does the preclude the other teams from winning their medals? 

Like if the US is not eligible for a medal then why didn't second and third and fourth move up? If the requirement is for only 1 team from three different countries then without the US both groups still had enough teams to win medals, so how does the NAA's screw up also affect the teams of the other countries?


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## c3hammer (Sep 20, 2002)

It appears that the precedent had been made at the World Field Championships. Senior events were allowed to be scored, counted and medaled even though the prerequisite paper work and fees were not in on time. Why now do we have to make these kids the example? 

Please, those of you who might be reading this and can have an effect, make it right for the kids involved. The point has been made.

Please give these kids their due. They shot as if to become World Championship medalists. That is their legacy and can never be had again. They can't come back next time as a junior or cadet.

Holding adults responsible is one thing, but making these kids pay as an example for those who've been stingy, lazy or simply irresponsible is not the right course of action.

Cheers,
Pete


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## Nicely (Jun 13, 2002)

I've contacted the NAA and FITA to try to get to the bottom of this. Naa has yet to respond. I received an email from Tom Dielen Secretary General FITA explaining their side and in short by the deadline there was only 1 JR. female compound team and 2 cadet female compound team registered. He goes on to say on August 8 all teams were made aware there would be no championship in these 2 divisions. If anyone wants to read the entire reponse send me an email to [email protected] and I'll forward it to you.

I'll give the NAA a chance to respond but if they knew on August 8 why were we never told?? Why didn't FITA refund the entry fees if there would be no championship? I've got alot of unanswered questions.


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## Hoytemgood (Aug 19, 2006)

Nicely said:


> I've contacted the NAA and FITA to try to get to the bottom of this. Naa has yet to respond. I received an email from Tom Dielen Secretary General FITA explaining their side and in short by the deadline there was only 1 JR. female compound team and 2 cadet female compound team registered. He goes on to say on August 8 all teams were made aware there would be no championship in these 2 divisions. If anyone wants to read the entire reponse send me an email to [email protected] and I'll forward it to you.
> 
> I'll give the NAA a chance to respond but if they knew on August 8 why were we never told?? Why didn't FITA refund the entry fees if there would be no championship? I've got alot of unanswered questions.


Well at least we have some idea as to what happened here. Certainly the NAA has a hand in this and need to respond. But at least we also know that the NAA is not solely responsible for the other countries not being awarded their medals. Please keep us posted daily as to what you hear from the NAA. I suspect that you won't hear from them. That is their approach to many things, stick their heads in the sand and don't respond. It was the main complaint at the NAA meeting in August at Nats. (Their lack of communication.)


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## IM2BZ2P2 (Oct 7, 2004)

Hoytemgood said:


> If the requirement is for only 1 team from three different countries then without the US both groups still had enough teams to win medals, so how does the NAA's screw up also affect the teams of the other countries?


The number of teams for a World Record event and a World Championship event differs:

FITA rule:
*5.4.3 Team World Records *may be established at a tournament at which there is competition between at least 1 team from three different countries. Each team will be made up of three women or three men.

FITA rule:
*4.7.3 A World Championship* will not be held for any category for which _preliminary entries_ reflect fewer than twelve (12) individuals and six (6) teams. For the Junior and Cadet categories, the minimum numbers will be eight (8) individuals and four (4) teams.


Perhaps the NAA did not enter any of the US teams on time, but the number of preliminary entries in the other categories were high enough for the Championship events to proceed anyway?


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## timppa (Feb 29, 2004)

In every FITA championship tournament is Captain´s meeting. We had it in Mexico and there were all teams told that these teams can shoot, but there will not be any medal ceremony for these teams. Nobody argued.


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## glparcher (Feb 5, 2005)

I have been a long time lurker on this board and this is my first post. It is absolutely inexcusable that the NAA would conduct team trials for this event, encourage participation while letting the archery community know that the compound teams would not be funded, let these fine young archers representing our country get to the event only to learn at a Captain's meeting that no medals were to be awarded. This was a very expensive trip for a "fun shoot" with only bragging rights to be earned. Nothing can be done to adequately make it up to the kids and their families but a token gesture would be a press release by the NAA apologizing to the injured parties along with cash reimbursement for their travel expenses.

Just my two cents.

Gary Petherick, former JOAD parent


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## CM JOAD (Oct 9, 2005)

glparcher said:


> I have been a long time lurker on this board and this is my first post. It is absolutely inexcusable that the NAA would conduct team trials for this event, encourage participation while letting the archery community know that the compound teams would not be funded, let these fine young archers representing our country get to the event only to learn at a Captain's meeting that no medals were to be awarded. This was a very expensive trip for a "fun shoot" with only bragging rights to be earned. Nothing can be done to adequately make it up to the kids and their families but a token gesture would be a press release by the NAA apologizing to the injured parties along with cash reimbursement for their travel expenses.
> 
> Just my two cents.
> 
> Gary Petherick, former JOAD parent


Gary is exactly right! If there were no medals to be awarded, the US Archers should have been notified so that they could decide for themselves whether they wanted to spend $2,000 each for the opportunity to be disappointed.

Like all the compound shooters, these US girls spent lots of time raising money within their communities. Now they have to go back and tell everyone that the event they were contributing was "not official". Good luck trying to raise money from those same people for any other event!

The NAA owes some major apologies! They also need to do something to get the egg off these young kid's faces with folks back home. A cash reimbursement would be a good start!


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## timppa (Feb 29, 2004)

FITA newsletter 31.8.2006 says:



> 2006 Junior Outdoor World Championships
> Following the deadline for preliminary entries, FITA regrets to inform that there will be NO World Title awarded in the following categories at the 2006 Junior & Cadet Outdoor Archery World Championships to be held in Merida in October:
> Women’s Compound Junior Team
> Women’s Compound Cadet Team


So, you should have known that before you left to Mexico.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Gary,

"Fun shoot?" ... "Bragging rights?"

So what you're saying is that without a token piece of tin with a ribbon attached to it, the young archers accomplished nothing and there was no point in sending them? 

Hardly.

Thanks to the efforts of many hard-working volunteers and staff, these kids had an opportunity to represent their country in the world championships, and will always have the honor of declaring that they won the event. Add to this the competitive experience, the travel experience and the stage that they were competing on, and I think you have something more than any ribbon or medal can give a kid.

Heck, you could have fooled me that the didn't "win" just because there were no medals handed out. I just checked the press release, and it's pretty clear who won.

Sure, it's unfortunate that they don't have a token keepsake that they can hang on their walls, but chances are pretty darn good that all of these young ladies will have more than just one Junior or Cadet medal to show to their grandchildren someday. And nobody will ever argue the fact that they won the world championship.

So how 'bout everyone just cool off the rhetoric for a while and relax, and think of the example they are setting in front of the kids (who I know are reading and watching this thread).

John.


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## CM JOAD (Oct 9, 2005)

limbwalker said:


> Gary,
> 
> "Fun shoot?" ... "Bragging rights?"
> 
> ...


John, we are just commenting on the "example" that has already been sent to these kids. I think that the example given to them by the NAA is probably having much more effect on them than our comments. A great example would be how the NAA handles this "issue". Everyone makes mistakes. Most people are very forgiving. Where more problems arise is when people don't take accountability.


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## glparcher (Feb 5, 2005)

John,

You are absolutely right and I am wrong. :embara: I did not mean to belittle the accomplishments of this fine group of young archers. They have every reason to stand proud of what they did. I know I am proud of each of them and followed the tournament as closely as the internet would allow. They are champions in my book.

Gary


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## TomB (Jan 28, 2003)

Good post John. They are world champions and the other countries are "medalists" also, regardless if the paperwork got done or not. I am glad they at least had the competition and didn't cancel it due to tardy entries. But, still lots of folks dropped the ball on communications. If the decision was indeed made about August 31 that there would be no official competition, everyone should have been told so that the kids could have been prepared. But, to have the kids and parents up to the very moment of the medal ceremony expecting an award ceremony only to not occur is still awful. Pretty poor job of managing expectations.

John's post reminds me of a lesson my father taught me, "The value of a job well done is having done it." I think 18 young ladies just learned this the hard way.

tom


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

CM,

Clearly some mistakes were made. However, again we set the example by how we handle setbacks and things out of our control. I have heard by good sources that a LOT of complaining and even profanities were used at the venue, many of which were said right in front of the kids. That is what I think is uncalled for. At that point, you need to demonstrate a mature response and explain to the kids what happened. If the kids want to get upset, then that's their right, but at least encourage them (or better yet - lead by example) to handle it in a mature manner.

My guess is that the people this really affected (the girls) would have handled this dissapointment much more graciously than some of the adults have.

John.


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## CM JOAD (Oct 9, 2005)

limbwalker said:


> CM,
> 
> Clearly some mistakes were made. However, again we set the example by how we handle setbacks and things out of our control. I have heard by good sources that a LOT of complaining and even profanities were used at the venue, many of which were said right in front of the kids. That is what I think is uncalled for. At that point, you need to demonstrate a mature response and explain to the kids what happened. If the kids want to get upset, then that's their right, but at least encourage them (or better yet - lead by example) to handle it in a mature manner.
> 
> ...


I can't argue with what you are saying, John. It is probably true that the kids would have handled this better than the adults, i.e., parents. Of course the disappointed of the "adults/parents" must also be addressed. The ones that chose to go to Mexico took off time from work and financed the entire trip themselves. Their disappointment should not be discounted.

There is a big difference between handling disappointment from what happens because of your mistake and handling disappointment from what happens because of someone elses mistake. 

John, are you suggesting that you personally wouldn't have been outwardly upset if you had taken 8 days off to go to Mexico to watch your daughter win a gold, only to find out a "clerical" error prevented her from standing on the top podium with flowers while the US National Anthem was played? Especially when it was "known" a couple weeks earlier and not shared with you?

If the actual awards are not important, then maybe all championships should just be "mail in".


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Not sure how I would have handled it unless I had actually been in that position. However, I would hope that I could give some of the folks (volunteer or otherwise) in the NAA the benefit of the doubt and not publically cast stones at them on an internet forum, or use profanities in front of young archers or the public.

Things happen. There will be more mistakes in the future, no doubt. When resources are as thin as they are and the majority of hours are filled by volunteers, these kinds of things are inevitable. I have worked with volunteers and have had staffs of volunteers work for me for over 15 years now. There is only so much you can ask...

As for the time off of work, well... We all make sacrifices, and to say that those sacrifices aren't worthwhile unless an award is received is just silly.

The value is in the competition and the experience. Not the awards.

John.


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## CM JOAD (Oct 9, 2005)

limbwalker said:


> Not sure how I would have handled it unless I had actually been in that position. However, I would hope that I could give some of the folks (volunteer or otherwise) in the NAA the benefit of the doubt and not publically cast stones at them on an internet forum, or use profanities in front of young archers or the public.
> 
> Things happen. There will be more mistakes in the future, no doubt. When resources are as thin as they are and the majority of hours are filled by volunteers, these kinds of things are inevitable. I have worked with volunteers and have had staffs of volunteers work for me for over 15 years now. There is only so much you can ask...
> 
> ...


You are probably right again. Therefore, since the most important part is that the "value is in the competition and the experience", the USA Olympic Committee no longer needs to be concerned about the USA recurve archers winning medals in the Olympics! And since we will just "value" the competition, do we even need coaches or training facilities? I guess it is just a matter of who is deciding on what is important and what isn't.


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## Guest (Oct 26, 2006)

Yuo know this is all good and everything but making the same mistake in such a short period of time for the same group of archers is just plain incompitence. Had the teams known all the peticulars well before they went would be different but to find out there is inexcusable. They certainly gained from the event but lost out on more than the adults realise something that can only be from the mind of the junior/cadets that missed out on the walk to the podium.


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## Huntmaster (Jan 30, 2003)

If all of this is correct, then why are they allowing the world record to be announced? A double standard for both of these events? How can that be? Yes, they had enough THERE to compete and make a legal tournament, but they only recognize part of it? 

If the record stands, then so shall the official placements, aka, awards.

Someone figure out how to protest this. In no way am I wanting to void the records, but FITA can't have it both ways.


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## arnie-da-archer (Oct 29, 2005)

If there wasnt enought teams to gain awards for the places(medals) what was thepoint in shooting off against each other? i was there as part of the GB team and as far as i knew the only time the girls got told that there wasnt going to be any medals was just before the award ceromany, this struck me as highly unfair as it built the girls up and then slammed them back down to earth  did any of the other countrys find out before the award ceromany or was it just us? 

cheers and good shooting from everyone at the junior world championships :darkbeer:


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## CHPro (May 21, 2002)

Couple quick comments.......

First, and foremost, I think FITA needs to re-think their 90-day requirement. Not all countries, particularly the US but I'm sure there are a few others, select their team participants more than 90 days out from the event.

If FITA will not re-think the 90-day requirement, then they should at least drop the requirement which I believe is in place that team members be listed on the entry. Just have the country say yeah or nay on the prelim entry for each of the categories and the number of participants/teams intended. Add team member names later down the road sufficiently in advance of the event for early media releases.

Secondly, just a conjecture here, but if the NAA did send in the necessary prelim registrations for some divisions but not others, I'm guessing there was a reason. i.e. Did the NAA look at the pre-reg numbers in all Divisions involved at some point in time prior to sending in the World registration materials and determine there were not enough entrants to field a team for specific Divisions? I know when I registered myself and my daughter some of the female compound divisions were looking rather light in terms of pre-reg shooters. If such was the case, should the NAA take a leap of faith and register individuals and teams for the World event (i.e. pick any 3 NAA member's names fitting the division from the NAA membership list?) even if possible there will not be enough participants in the Division once Trials starts? Willing to bet the World registration fees need to be submitted within the 90 days as well, and probably non-refundable as well! And if any of this conjecture is true, then probably we as parents can help out the NAA as well by getting our Trials registrations in just a little further in advance !

I'm guessing the NAA along with a couple other countries such as the host country were caught by surprise by FITA's decision to enforce the 90-day rule. Past precedence, i.e. the World Field, would have led one to believe that as long as the required number of participants and teams was available at the time of the contest that all Championships would be recognized. Note it appears the FITA e-newsletter announcement regarding which divisions were going to be excluded from the World Championships was posted after our US Trials for the event making it impossible even for the NAA to warn those involved that medals would not be presented. Even more difficult for countries who had their registration and travel plans turned in even further in advance.

Personally I think if FITA made an exception this year for the World Field they should consider also making an exception for the Jr World Target Championships as well and then start anew enforcing the 90-day policy starting with '07 events - with plenty of communication to member organizations that no exceptions of the enforcement going forward. Chalk it up to new policy that was misunderstood and not properly communicated.

As for the young archers involved, in my mind and I'm sure most others, they legitimately won 1st, 2nd, 3rd, etc., place at the World Championships and can rightfully advertise/declare this when anyone asks. The fact that FITA does not officially recognize their accomplishments in terms of medals or notes in official results does not detract from this.

Just a few thoughts/comments anyway................

>>-------->


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## Jim Pruitte (May 27, 2002)

CHPro said:


> If FITA will not re-think the 90-day requirement, then they should at least drop the requirement which I believe is in place that team members be listed on the entry. Just have the country say yeah or nay on the prelim entry for each of the categories and the number of participants/teams intended. Add team member names later down the road sufficiently in advance of the event for early media releases.


Jeff,
FITA does allow that. The NGB can just send in the entrys with no names to get it in before the deadline, then add the names after the trials.

Jim


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## Serious Fun (May 12, 2003)

*Hoping all had an great time*



CM JOAD said:


> Here is the schedule:
> 14th October Team Captains Meeting and Opening ceremony
> 15th October Official Practice and Equipment Inspection
> 16th October Qualification Round - Long Distances
> ...


I hope all had a great time.
What a fantastic opprotunity for all that took part in the trials and those that traveled to the Jr World Team Championships!
Some will go on to become the best in the collegiate, senior and masters ranks.
All will have the memories for a lifetime.


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## Nicely (Jun 13, 2002)

Finally got an answer from the NAA. Their registration was late but it wouldn't have mattered as others were late as well, (Mexico and Canada Ironic the 3 medal teams). As far as not notifying anyone the NAA claims they were never made aware that there would be no championship in the Cadet and Junior Womens Compound division. The NAA registered all teams and individuals at the same time which leads me to believe that as long as there are enough teams registered by the deadline late entries can be added, this is why the other US teams could compete.

Nothing really new here but it gives you both sides of the story. My take the NAA screwed up FITA could have fixed it and the actual participants were the only ones hurt.......nice job. The NAA is still trying to do something as stated in this Quote by Brad Camp:

*"The USA is proposing a petition signed by all the Federations who were late or impacted by this decision be sent to the Dr. Erdener, the FITA President, asking for special consideration and presentation to the cadet and junior female compound teams."*

I will say the whole experience was very positive for Kendal and the event was the best run that I have ever attented first class all the way. Kevin Eldridge was Kendals team leader and he and the other team leaders did a great job. The lost Medal probably does mean little but to stand on the podium while your national anthem plays would have been something 6 young ladies would have remembered for the rest of their lives. Still much more was gained than lost.

Matt


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## oldreliable67 (Mar 24, 2003)

> As far as not notifying anyone the NAA claims they were never made aware that there would be no championship in the Cadet and Junior Womens Compound division.


How does that square with the notice being published in the August FITA Newsletter? Did FITA rely on that publication as the sole source of communication of the shortfall in the number of teams? If so, one, did FITA make NGBs aware that the FITA newsletter would be the sole source of such communications, and two, does no one at NAA read the FITA newsletter (in either circumstance)? Was there no other official notification from FITA on this matter?

It just defies logic that FITA would not be in e-mail or telephonic communication with one of the few countries that historically sends a full roster of competitors for all divisions when that country's entries are not in hand when due. 

It further defies logic that it appears that not a single person at the NAA reads any and all communications from FITA on a regular basis. The NAA is still the NGB for target archery in the US, is it not? What could be more basic?

Just my opinion. YMMV.


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## mbu (Oct 22, 2003)

timppa said:


> I am in Mexico with Finnish team, I post pictures everyday.
> 
> Pictures:
> www.timorantanen.com


Thank you, Timo. 

It was a great tournament. Congratulations to all participants and medalists.

Maestro at work. 
Sky is the limit.


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## IM2BZ2P2 (Oct 7, 2004)

oldreliable67 said:


> It just defies logic that FITA would not be in e-mail or telephonic communication with one of the few countries that historically sends a full roster of competitors for all divisions when that country's entries are not in hand when due.


A prime example of American arrogance!  

Why should FITA chase up any country? Or the converse could apply; "Oh dear, poor little XYZ has not sent a team to many World Champs events before so we better phone them and check they remember what to do".


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## oldreliable67 (Mar 24, 2003)

IM2BZ2P2 said:


> A prime example of American arrogance!
> 
> Why should FITA chase up any country? Or the converse could apply; "Oh dear, poor little XYZ has not sent a team to many World Champs events before so we better phone them and check they remember what to do".


Thats not the stupidest thing I've ever heard or read, but its pretty danged close.


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## CM JOAD (Oct 9, 2005)

oldreliable67 said:


> Thats not the stupidest thing I've ever heard or read, but its pretty danged close.


Based on his name (IM2BZ2P), we may be dealing with a real mental giant.


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## timppa (Feb 29, 2004)

I would like to ask one question, why is this so difficult? Mexico had their own website for the tournament, all the forms were downloadable there. In every form is date when it has to be returned. 
I do all that for Finland, we are small country and small teams, but I do it always on time. I have today sent Preliminary Hotel form to Leipzig, World Outdoor Championship 2007. It has to be returned 1.4.2007, but I did it today. 
Just do it in time, nothing else.


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## timppa (Feb 29, 2004)

mbu said:


> Thank you, Timo.
> 
> It was a great tournament. Congratulations to all participants and medalists.
> 
> ...


Thank you, it is good to see some pics of me.


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## oldreliable67 (Mar 24, 2003)

timppa said:


> I would like to ask one question, why is this so difficult? Mexico had their own website for the tournament, all the forms were downloadable there. In every form is date when it has to be returned.
> I do all that for Finland, we are small country and small teams, but I do it always on time. I have today sent Preliminary Hotel form to Leipzig, World Outdoor Championship 2007. It has to be returned 1.4.2007, but I did it today.
> Just do it in time, nothing else.


Indeed. Rocket science its not.


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## IM2BZ2P2 (Oct 7, 2004)

oldreliable67 said:


> Indeed. Rocket science its not.


So we agree no one needs to talk individual countries through the process? 



CM JOAD said:


> Based on his name (IM2BZ2P), we may be dealing with a real mental giant.


I’ll bet I had more of a fun challenge coming up with my name than you did! 

Anyway, as I mentioned a while back, I imagine the NAA won't forget to register teams again for a while which is good.


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## oldreliable67 (Mar 24, 2003)

IM2BZ2P2 said:


> So we agree no one needs to talk individual countries through the process?


"Talk[ing] individual countries through the process" is not at all what I was referring to. My point was that, on FITA's part, simple common sense coupled with the responsibility for conducting a WC would suggest that if a significant block of entries didn't arrive when expected, one would like to know why. Clearly, FITA had to be expecting entries from Mexico, Canada and the US. 
A phone call to check on the status of such is a small investment to make to avoid the kind of kerfuffle such as occured in Mexico.

Absent better information to suggest otherwise, the NAA appears to have dropped the ball in monitoring/maintaining communications with FITA. Shouldn't communication between an NGB and its international authority be a reasonably regular two-way street, not a some-time, ad-hoc happenstance? In this instance, it doesn't appear to have been even close.


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## archerybob (Jul 2, 2003)

oldreliable67Clearly said:


> im with timo they had ample time and very clear return dates. we took 14 archers (aus) by no means a small team, it is your managers and NGB's job to make sure everything is ready to roll, not fitas or the organisers!! there responsibilty is that the event runs well.
> 
> love the aus assistant manager
> rob turner


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## oldreliable67 (Mar 24, 2003)

archerybob said:


> im with timo they had ample time and very clear return dates. we took 14 archers (aus) by no means a small team, it is your managers and NGB's job to make sure everything is ready to roll, not fitas or the organisers!! there responsibilty is that the event runs well.


Absolutely. No argument with that at all. It certainly appears that the US, Mexican, and Canadian NGB's failed in their responsibilities. Furthermore, it is not FITA's responsibility to "manage" the entries for any NGB. 

But Bob, what happens when something doesn't go as expected? If I'm a tournament organizer or promoter and I am expecting entries that don't show up when expected (whatever the sport), what do I do? Nothing? Adopt the attitude of "Oh, well, guess they changed their minds." Or perhaps in this case, "Ok, at the World Field Champs, they got their entries in late and we took care of everything. But we'll show'em this time and make an example out of them! This will be a warning to any who are so arrogrant/cavalier/careless (take your pick) as to get their entries in late in the future!" Sounds very much like cutting off the nose to spite the face. 

So which would have the better response from FITA? A phone call or e-mail to the NGBs when the expected entries didn't arrive on time, or put a notice in the FITA newsletter and go on your way, confident that you did fulfilled your responsibilities and in the knowledge that all will be well, regardless?

You are absolutely correct when you stated, "there responsibilty is that the event runs well". Can you truly say that this event ran well? Perhaps over all, it did. But due to the combination of NGB carelessness and FITA arrogrance or inattention, it certainly did not run as well as it should have.


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## TexARC (Mar 5, 2003)

As an adjunctive facilitator of the various Texas archery tournaments, I feel it is a responsibility for ME to send out via quick, easy, and simple emails, notices about the tournament. Both when it is first posted with information and registration form on either the TSAA or other website, and periodically during the run-up to the tourney. 

I especially try to send out a "this is your last chance" notice about the looming deadline, since so many people procrastinate (why is that? )

This costs me literally nothing to do, other than a few minutes of time. The simultaneous nature of an email to dozens, hundreds, or yes, even thousands has redefined capabilities and responsibilities of tournament organizers. 

Unfortunately, the more prestigious and elite the organization regardless of sport or business, the greater the danger of inflexibility in attitude becomes as the organization starts to take precedence over the core reason for the organization's existence in the first place. Not saying that is the case here, but if I want to improve a tournament one of the first things is to insure that everyone who might want to attend are allowed to know about it. And if the deadline is looming and enrollment is down, I am "fer dang sure" going to send out another note! 

It's a no brainer when the pool of known potential registrants is less than 10 or 20 entries/countries. If 5%, 10%, or even 20% of your expected attendees are MIA it is time to become more proactive, IF your goal is to promote excellence. The revelatory nature of the electronic web (in this regard) may be something that just hasn't been completely realized or recognized even though they definitely have a solid web presence with the FITA website.


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## TomB (Jan 28, 2003)

Wayne and Ron, well said and argued. The basic cause of this fiasco was the tardy entries from the NGB's. However, it was faciliatated by the lack of follow-up by the steward of the World Championship, FITA. As Ron noted the goal is to promote excellence. The kids were the only one that got it right.

tom


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## IM2BZ2P2 (Oct 7, 2004)

I'm not arguing but stating facts:

*At least several years ago: *FITA Rules state that preliminary entries need to be in on a given date and a minimum number of entries are required at that stage for a Championship event to be held.

*May 2006 FITA newsletter:* FITA warned all NGBs about the importance of preliminary entries being in by the due date to WC events after issues at the World Field.

*August 2006 FITA newsletter:* FITA published that there would not be championship events for the girls compound teams at the JWACs

*October 2006 Team Manager’s meeting immediately prior to the start of the JWACs:* FITA or event organisers reminded those present that there would not be championship events for the girls compound teams

*October 2006 after the event:* all the American team apparently totally surprised that there are no championship medals for the girls compound teams and it’s partly FITA’s fault for not reminding them to enter on time.

Even I arranged to be on the FITA email list to get a reminder when a new newsletter is published, and I then read it. You’d think someone in the NAA and team managers could manage to arrange to do the same.


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## archerybob (Jul 2, 2003)

i say again, it is your managers and NGB's job to make sure everything is ready to roll, not fitas or the organisers!! IM2BZ2P2 facts prove all


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## oldreliable67 (Mar 24, 2003)

IM2BZ2P2 said:


> I'm not arguing but stating facts


I haven't read of anyone disputing the facts as you have presented them. It seems to me the only point of contention is: what is the appropriate response from FITA when entries to a WC did not materialize as expected, regardless of whether they were from the US, Mexico, Canada or Timbuktu.



> You’d think someone in the NAA and team managers could manage to arrange to do the same.


Absolutely right. No argument there. As well as the team managers in Mexico, Canada, or Timbuktu. If one is going to accept the responsibility, then one should perform those functions responsibly, shouldn't one?


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## c3hammer (Sep 20, 2002)

IM2BZ2P2 said:


> I'm not arguing but stating facts:
> <snip>
> *August 2006 FITA newsletter:* FITA published that there would not be championship events for the girls compound teams at the JWACs
> 
> ...


"I'm not arguing but stating facts" 

I think there were more than a couple of teams expecting FITA to be consistant and thus nothing was said before the fiasco ensued.

Cheers,
Pete


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## Huntmaster (Jan 30, 2003)

c3hammer said:


> "I'm not arguing but stating facts"
> 
> I think there were more than a couple of teams expecting FITA to be consistant and thus nothing was said before the fiasco ensued.
> 
> ...


The information that I have gathered thus far indicates that the US attitude was that there were other US teams registered late, and they were allowed to compete. What is not expressed in the info that I hear is that the reason these girls were not acknowledged, when others were, is the initial lack of registered teams......aka, the happenings that c3 has posted. From the info I've heard, I wonder if it's a bit of a bewilderment to to the NAA as to what the difference is. :noidea:

In any case I believe the NAA is attempting to file a petition in conjunction with the other countries affected in order to remedy the situation, and get FITA to award the teams, and further more, to better back the younger classes in an attempt to not deter them. I see this being a hinging point for those teams here in the US. The participation of these classes and age groups in the future will possibly be decided by the decision of FITA in this case. Should FITA refuse this, what faith will these kids have in their representation at future events?

I sincerely hope this is a turning point for our teams. The US needs to get off high center and go in a direction. With luck this won't be an issue in the future, but it is being looked into and discussed right now within the organization.


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## IM2BZ2P2 (Oct 7, 2004)

*Written in FITA INFO October 31*

_... Therefore the FITA Constitution and Rules Book is quite clear on this matter and no championship can be held for the concerned events and the decision is maintained as published in the FITA INFO newsletter.

Yours sincerely
Tom Dielen_

:zip:


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## oldreliable67 (Mar 24, 2003)

IM2BZ2P2 said:


> *Written in FITA INFO October 31*
> 
> _... Therefore the FITA Constitution and Rules Book is quite clear on this matter and no championship can be held for the concerned events and the decision is maintained as published in the FITA INFO newsletter.
> 
> ...


In that release, FITA also wrote:



> It is VITAL that Member Associations will respect in future the deadlines,


...and yet other teams registered late had been awarded championships, as recently as the World Field Champs. 

More and more, it appears as though FITA decided to put an end to their willingness to tolerate late entries for FITA events and to make an example of those countries failing to register by the 90-days deadline for the JWC. Further, FITA appears to believe that a notice in the August 31 issue of the newsletter was sufficient notice to all FITA members that the rule was going to be enforced - this time. And yet, those countries forwarding late entries sent those teams anyway. Why?

It is certainly FITA's duty to enforce all the rules; it is likewise FITA's duty to not _selectively_ enforce the rules. Indeed, consistency in the application of the rules is paramount for the governing body of any sport.

All of which makes it even more puzzling as to why FITA let the entry deadline pass without at least a telephonic or e-mail inquiry to Mexico, Canada and the US NGBs on their entry status. It is inconceivable that FITA was not aware of the intention of those countries to enter teams. It is even more inconceivable that the sport's governing body would not wish the status of one of its world championships to not be tarnished by not being able to award a world championship due to the lack of entries - especially when the situation could likely be easily remedied. Yet, absent information to the contrary to which the public has not been made privy to, this appears to be exactly what they did.

To be sure, it is equally inconceivable that the NGBs of those countries were unaware of the entry deadline. Furthermore, it is equally inconceivable that all three of those NGBs were not aware of the notice in the August 31 newlsetter that stated that there would be no world championships awarded due to the lack of timely entries. Or, did the NGBs see that notice and simply disregard it, without seeking immediate redress from FITA as soon as they were aware of it, and blithely rely on FITA's precedents, as exhibited most recently at the World Field Champs? 

So far, none of the info that has come to light suggest that the behavior of all parties - FITA and the NGBs of the US, Mexico and Canada - to this fiasco has been nothing but amatuerish and unworthy.


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## Canadian Buck (Apr 7, 2004)

*Canada was not Late!*

I wish you guys would point the fingers in the right direction.

I quote:

FITA has reviewed all preliminary entries with the original documents received by the organising committee and have found the following


Within the deadlines
IND received on 15/7 with 3 CCW and 3 CJW
GBR received on 14/7 but with 2 CCW and 2 CJW so no teams
CAN received on10/7 with 3 CCW and 1CJW

So at the time we had to take the decision it was only 2 CCW teams and 1 CJW Team

After deadline

USA received on 14/8 (after deadline) entering 3 CCW and 3 CJW
MEX received on 2/8 with 3 CCW and 3 CJW
TUR received on 1/9 with 3CJW
Therefore the FITA Constitution & Rules Book is quite clear on this matter and no championship can be held for the concerned events and the decision is maintained as published in the FITA Information.


Yours sincerely 
Tom Dielen

End of quote.

Personally I think that FITA could have made a couple of phone calls and /or extended the deadline. Why do they need 90 days anyway?


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## oldreliable67 (Mar 24, 2003)

Canadian Buck said:


> I wish you guys would point the fingers in the right direction...
> 
> Personally I think that FITA could have made a couple of phone calls and /or extended the deadline. Why do they need 90 days anyway?


Sorry, my bad (as my kids would say!). Apologies to Canadian NGB!

...and thanks for the correction!


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## CM JOAD (Oct 9, 2005)

I am hearing lots of comments like "Who does the USA think they are? If they want to play, they should follow the rules."

That is one way to look at it. Another would be, "What is the purpose/intent of the Jr. World Archery Championships?" Is it to see which country is the best at administrative paperwork or is it to get as many countries of the World together in friendly competition and see who the best archers are? Which "intent" is better for the promotion of archery?

As in most things, as events grow a set of rules are established to help administer the event. But, as often happens over time, the "rules" take on more importance than the event itself. 

If the Jr. World Archery Championships were to see which countries are best at administrative paperwork, then the competition did a great job! If having the registration forms in place months before the archery competition is more important that the archery competition itself, then FITA accomplished it's goal! If adherence to a set of rules is more important than promotion of archery, then congratulations!

If the "rules" start to detract from the original "intent", then the rules MUST be put back into a proper perspective or the event will suffer.


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## spotshooter (Mar 3, 2003)

If I am being oversensitive, please let me know. As the father of two of the girls on team U S A, it just offends the s$#% out me that I find out on archery talk about the FITA ruling quoted a few posts above, instead of from the NAA. It seems to me that they could make an effort to communicate with the parties involved. After all, it's not like the kids missed a league score and were penalized 10 points. If team Mexico was late in registration, then shame on them, but I don't pay dues to Mexico Archery. I pay dues to the NAA. I really don't know what they could do to make up for this mess, but for them to do nothing really ticks me off.


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## c3hammer (Sep 20, 2002)

Spotshooter, give those gals a big hug for me and a hearty congratulations on being World Champions!    

I sent you and email a month or so ago, but your email must be changed these days.

I hope to see you guys to say so in person at the Opens, but I think I'm going to be gone for the first one.

Cheers,
Pete


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## Xs24-7 (Aug 1, 2002)

Just an fyi, the NAA, as well as the Federation of Canadian Archers has sent a letter to FITA protesting this issue. It is an issue that both organisations are doing their best to resolve. Whether that means medals or not remains to be seen, but they are active in trying to resolve this issue for their members.

Ed Wilson
VP Committies and Projects-FCA


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## TomB (Jan 28, 2003)

Looks like FITA has had their investigation and say according to the October FITA newsletter:
http://www.archeryworldcup.org/User...s/Newsletters/FITA INFO/2006/10_Oct2006-e.pdf


It appears at this point there is going to be no relief for the damages to the girls and efforts ought to be focussed on getting Mexico, Turkey and USA NGB's to do their jobs and submit entries on time.

tom


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## CM JOAD (Oct 9, 2005)

TomB said:


> Looks like FITA has had their investigation and say according to the October FITA newsletter:
> http://www.archeryworldcup.org/User...s/Newsletters/FITA INFO/2006/10_Oct2006-e.pdf
> 
> 
> ...


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## ecc (Nov 20, 2002)

no, its called following the rules and submission times. quite a simple idea really.


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## Jim C (Oct 15, 2002)

Its sad that the people who screwed up suffer no damages and the people who shot well and did nothing wrong did. Its sad that FITA is too arrogant to understand that and if they weren't going to award titles why did they allow the competition to proceed? The words "detrimental reliance" come to mind and a good lawyer could probably cause FITA some serious problems and perhaps rightfully so based on the reliance those archers placed on FITA. Of course if FITA told the archers that the team tournament didn't count BEFORE the archers competed that would be a different matter


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## CM JOAD (Oct 9, 2005)

ecc said:


> no, its called following the rules and submission times. quite a simple idea really.


And you can proudly say, "Forget about archery part, we are better administrators than the USA!" Put that award in your trophy case (shelf) right next to the ....uh... other feel good awards. Did you get a team "best administrator" picture?


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## CM JOAD (Oct 9, 2005)

Xs24-7 said:


> Just an fyi, the NAA, as well as the Federation of Canadian Archers has sent a letter to FITA protesting this issue. It is an issue that both organisations are doing their best to resolve. Whether that means medals or not remains to be seen, but they are active in trying to resolve this issue for their members.
> 
> Ed Wilson
> VP Committies and Projects-FCA


Just what is the big deal. How would it hurt FITA if they awarded the medals? Unfortunately, the reverse is not true. 

There is a big difference between competitive "rules" and administrative "rules". Competitive rules maintain a level playing field for all competitors. Administrative rules often are for the purpose of making it easier on the administrators. If administrative rules affect the competition, the administrative rules need to be seriously reviewed.


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## Huntmaster (Jan 30, 2003)

Jim C said:


> Its sad that the people who screwed up suffer no damages and the people who shot well and did nothing wrong did. Its sad that FITA is too arrogant to understand that and if they weren't going to award titles why did they allow the competition to proceed? The words "detrimental reliance" come to mind and a good lawyer could probably cause FITA some serious problems and perhaps rightfully so based on the reliance those archers placed on FITA. Of course if FITA told the archers that the team tournament didn't count BEFORE the archers competed that would be a different matter


I agree. There is a double standard going on here anyway. If the rules apply for a tournament to take place, and the competiton couldn't take place for reasons they are quoting, then the new world records theoretically shouldn't exist either. They accepted the records, so the awards and places should be recognized. They've already set the standard by accepting the records.....there for, the accomplishments should be acknowledged as well.

sick 'em Jim! :wink:


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## IM2BZ2P2 (Oct 7, 2004)

Jim C said:


> Of course if FITA told the archers that the team tournament didn't count BEFORE the archers competed that would be a different matter


  



timppa said:


> In every FITA championship tournament is Captain´s meeting. We had it in Mexico and there were all teams told that these teams can shoot, but there will not be any medal ceremony for these teams. Nobody argued.





timppa said:


> FITA newsletter 31.8.2006 says:
> 
> _Quote:
> 2006 Junior Outdoor World Championships
> ...


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## Jim C (Oct 15, 2002)

IM2BZ2P2 said:


>


there are 120+ posts-didn't see them all
why don't you fill in your profile-I don't have much use for anonymous posters


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## Canadian Buck (Apr 7, 2004)

*Im2bz2p2*

IM2BZ2P2 - you seem to take some joy from the fact that these kids accomplishments won't be recognized. Why is that?
Yes the rules were not followed to the letter but that is not in any way, shape or form the young athletes fault.

What is your axe to grind on all of this? Why do you keep smugly quoting the rules when what should happen here is common sense should prevail and medals should be awarded.

Anonymous posters hiding away saying things they don't have the guts to say with their name on it don't get much respect from me.

CB
(my name is in my profile)


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## CM JOAD (Oct 9, 2005)

IM2BZ2P2 said:


> Looking at it as a outsider (I was not a supporter of any of the compound girls teams) FITA perhaps did the right thing. If they had broken the rules it would have been setting a precedent. Rules are rules (however much I fall foul of them ) and it is not as though FITA had not pointed this same thing out for the WC Field event just a few months before. This way NOCs should now make an effort to get preliminary entries in on time to WC (and other) events.
> 
> What's not fair is that the kids get stuffed around by errors on the part of adults. But hopefully when they are adults they will remember what it was like and take care not to do the same.


Only sheep follow all rules simply because they are "rules". People should question the validity of the specific rule .... or they should just step in line and watch the tail of the sheep ahead of them. Following rules simply because someone telling them it is a "rule" is also "setting a precedent". 

We are talking about rules with varying degree of importance. Certain rules are more (or less) important than others. The "rule" regarding timing of the application has no relevance to the archery competition and does nothing to keep the playing field level for all competitors.

Should the rule against performance enhancing drugs be "equal" in value to the timing of an application simply because they are both "rules"? BAAAA.

Has anyone questioned the validity of the "rule" of having the application sent in two months before the competition? What impact does this have on the competition itself? Does it make the bookwork easier?


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## Huntmaster (Jan 30, 2003)

IM2BZ2P2 said:


>


I'm not sure you're paying attention here. 



IM2BZ2P2 said:


> 4.7.3 A World Championship will not be held for any category for which preliminary entries reflect fewer than twelve (12) individuals and six (6) teams. For the Junior and Cadet categories, the minimum numbers will be eight (8) individuals and four (4) teams.


Your own words



timppa said:


> FITA rule:
> 5.4.3 Team World Records may be established at a tournament at which there is competition between at least 1 team from three different countries. Each team will be made up of three women or three men.


and finally, check the world records for the classes in question:

http://www.archeryworldcup.org

A world championship will not be held........{insert requirements here}

A team world record may only be established at a tournament........{insert these requirements}

Notice, there must have been a championship, because there was obviously an *official* tournament, or the link I next gave would not post records set in those classes.

Follow me here......the standard has already been set for this tournament by accepting new world records. 

Do you need it put any clearer?:tsk:


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