# All over the place?!?!?



## cbrunson (Oct 25, 2010)

How long or how much have you been shooting since your recovery?

How do you execute your shot with your higher let off bow? Do you sit comfortably and squeeze to trigger with your button, or do you pull into the stops?

Pro comps ran long compared to the hunting bows. Most about a half inch. You can shorten it up almost that much with twists, but if you back the limbs off, you add a little more to the DL Just make sure you do the timing too. About 1/16” advanced on the top cam will give you a little more cushion with the let off, but it will still want to go if you don’t keep enough back tension.

My first suspicion, not having enough information, is that you need a lot more practice. If this is your first experience with spirals, it will take some time before you learn to like them.


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## pwyrick (Feb 13, 2011)

How do the angles of the grips now compare between your CS34 and PCE? Does the addition of the Sugru raise your wrist, even slightly? If it does, then you will need a longer (maybe just a little) draw length on the PCE, as a higher wrist moves the pivot point of the bow further away from your body.
Also, how much have you shot a hinge? If you are just starting with a hinge, then that could contribute to your movement. And possibly more. I just took a look at your two releases. The Incredible has a longer stem/post reaching to connect to the d-loop than the Abyss has. That makes for different anchor points. So, IMHO there are some things that could contribute to increased movement.
Where to start to begin to get the PCE to behave. First, the bow is a great bow, so it will perform. Next, I recommend that you not compare the PCE with the CS34 and just start setting it up to fit you and your hinge. As you do so, then ask more questions that are specific to the PCE.
I hope some others will contribute ideas and counter ideas to mine. Good luck.


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## pwyrick (Feb 13, 2011)

One last thought: I'm all over the place when my bows fit me perfectly. If I could get a few more of you to be as unstable as I am, then I wouldn't always be at a disadvantage.


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## Reverend (Nov 2, 2004)

cbrunson said:


> How long or how much have you been shooting since your recovery?
> 
> How do you execute your shot with your higher let off bow? Do you sit comfortably and squeeze to trigger with your button, or do you pull into the stops?
> 
> ...


CB
I haven't shot much since starting up again, but couldn't help thinking that the CS34 is much steadier. That being said, the DL on both is exactly the same, give or take 1-2 twists of string. I measured this myself on draw board and against mirror. I wanted to make sure to try to duplicate the CS's specs...
With both the thumb trigger and hinge, I execute pulling into the stops.


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## Reverend (Nov 2, 2004)

pwyrick said:


> One last thought: I'm all over the place when my bows fit me perfectly. If I could get a few more of you to be as unstable as I am, then I wouldn't always be at a disadvantage.



I'm there! lol


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## cbrunson (Oct 25, 2010)

Reverend said:


> CB
> I haven't shot much since starting up again, but couldn't help thinking that the CS34 is much steadier.


Pretty typical from my experience. It takes me quite a while after hunting season to settle in with my target bow. I usually quit shooting it around the first part of June, take the summer off, then pick up my hunting bow in August. When I first start shooting my target bow again, I am all over the place for a few weeks. 

Using this year as an example, I started practicing a lot in early October and just barely reached the level where I was shooting last year indoors. The reason for the struggle is because when I do get back into it, I shoot much better than I can with my hunting bow.

My suggestion would be to keep shooting it for a while and track your progress. Shoot as much as you can without letting your form break down. You are holding up a lot more weight than you are with your hunting bow. It takes time to build up the strength for it. 

Are you confident with your hinge?


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## WhitBri (Jan 30, 2007)

You may need a different dl on each different bow. Bow geometry and where the grip is located compared to center all matters. My guess is you need a slightly shorter measured dl on the pce. Maybe only an 1/8" or 1/4". A little makes a huge difference in hold. And hold makes a big difference in your whole shot


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## montigre (Oct 13, 2008)

Reverend said:


> That being said, the DL on both is exactly the same, give or take 1-2 twists of string. I measured this myself on draw board and against mirror. I wanted to make sure to try to duplicate the CS's specs...


You're comparing apples to oranges here, you're probably not going to end up with the exact same DL with both of these bows. String angle difference is one determining factor (34" bow versus a 37" bow) and, as mentioned earlier, they each have a totally different geometry with the 34's grip being significantly higher than the PCE.

You're also trying to make a comparison without having shot the bow enough following your recovery and the first time shooting spirals with higher letoff.....you have a lot of big things here to get used to.

My recommendations:

1) Set your DL for the PCE based on your hold and sight picture and NOT by what it may have been with your other bow. Make sure it is spot on and not just "close" with the spiral cams. Spirals do not like close....

2) Make sure the top cam is advanced 1/16" to 1/8"; spirals do not like being set even and with the lowered grip of the PCE, you may even have to advance it a little more than usual to assist with calming the hold.

3) Stop shooting at 20 yards for a little while and do GRIV's 10 yard game to get used to the higher holding weight of the PCE and shooting with a hinge--you're going to have to relearn, or at least tweak, your form a little when starting out with a more digressive cam system such as the spirals

4) Keep the Sugru on the grip--you will eventually need it to tame the PCE a little once you're more accustomed to shooting it.

There are a couple more tricks, but you have to get through 1-4 before even thinking about them.

Good luck and keep us posted on your progress.


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

Hey, 298/30Xs and hardly any shooting? I just got back to shooting and it ain't no picnic. Everything was new again. I had ache in places I didn't know I had. Muscles need re-learned, strengthened.
Like cbrunson, give it some time.....


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## Rick! (Aug 10, 2008)

My PCE was sensitive to how I gripped it. The PCE grip is very rounded with a narrow waist at its top underneath the shelf. If I tried to use anything but a low wrist grip, my hold or unsteadiness increased. A low wrist grip makes for a much steadier hold. A low wrist grip with a bit more heel and my forearm as close to the string as possible worked best for me. The others have given good advice regarding cam timing and DL. You could try a better string stop and the little stock one allows more stretch than I liked. I was tweaking my DL and timing a lot when I first got my PCE and it took until the second season to get real confident with it. The short game is great for making tweaks and measuring results as long as you are working on a manageable set of variables, the fewer the better with one being best. Good luck. 

PS - make sure to check your cam bearings if your PCE was used when you picked it up.


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## Reverend (Nov 2, 2004)

Thanks for the advice. I will continue playing with the grip and DL to see if I can "fast-track" this process. 
The thing is that I expected some inconsistencies after picking the my bows up after my long hiatus. However, in no time my CS34 was aiming solidly. So much so, that I shot my tightest group ever at 70 yards (about a 4 in.). But the way my PCE is holding, I'd be lucky to get a 2 foot group at that distance. 

This is why I tried to mimic the specs on the CS34. I understand the thumb trigger has a longer neck, but I've tried to compensate by adding a longer loop on the PCE. 

I do have a bomar stop on the spirals. Don't know if this makes a difference or not?

Interesting that Gail and Rick have opposing suggestions about the Sugru grip. Not trying to instigate an argument, just making an observation. I guess I should find out for myself on a short target.


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## Reverend (Nov 2, 2004)

SonnyThomas said:


> Hey, 298/30Xs and hardly any shooting? I just got back to shooting and it ain't no picnic. Everything was new again. I had ache in places I didn't know I had. Muscles need re-learned, strengthened.
> Like cbrunson, give it some time.....



Yea but I hardly consider mine an injury. Your injury was significant. Recover quickly!


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

Draw length is a fickle thing. Geometry of each bow.... I used 28 1/4" with my Martin Shadowcats, 41 1/2" ata (first two) and 41 1/4" with my 3rd. 
My MX2 with 40 1/2" ata I had at 28 1/4" and felt bunched just a tad. Longer mods felt great and TY watched to see the longer draw length looked, which he said was perfect. Alas, the wreck didn't let me do any shooting. I sold the bow because it was said it'd be a year before I could draw a bow, if I could draw a bow. My MarXman with 37 1/2" is set to 28 1/2" which feels great.

Releases. Set angle and length can wreck things. Of all the hinges I have had and have, the 2 finger Stan Deuce is giving best results.


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## cbrunson (Oct 25, 2010)

Reverend said:


> Thanks for the advice. I will continue playing with the grip and DL to see if I can "fast-track" this process.
> The thing is that I expected some inconsistencies after picking the my bows up after my long hiatus. However, in no time my CS34 was aiming solidly. So much so, that I shot my tightest group ever at 70 yards (about a 4 in.). But the way my PCE is holding, I'd be lucky to get a 2 foot group at that distance.
> 
> This is why I tried to mimic the specs on the CS34. I understand the thumb trigger has a longer neck, but I've tried to compensate by adding a longer loop on the PCE.
> ...


You seem to have a good understanding of the mechanics of it, but like montigre said, they are two completely different bow geometries. It'll take some getting used to even if you get it set up perfectly.


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## cbrunson (Oct 25, 2010)

SonnyThomas said:


> Draw length is a fickle thing. Geometry of each bow.... I used 28 1/4" with my Martin Shadowcats, 41 1/2" ata (first two) and 41 1/4" with my 3rd.
> My MX2 with 40 1/2" ata I had at 28 1/4" and felt bunched just a tad. Longer mods felt great and TY watched to see the longer draw length looked, which he said was perfect. Alas, the wreck didn't let me do any shooting. I sold the bow because it was said it'd be a year before I could draw a bow, if I could draw a bow. My MarXman with 37 1/2" is set to 28 1/2" which feels great.
> 
> Releases. Set angle and length can wreck things. Of all the hinges I have had and have, the 2 finger Stan Deuce is giving best results.


I've found this true as well. I tend to go shorter with DL as the ata gets longer to get the right head position. .......and lower with the release (or longer d-loop) to keep from getting cramped up.


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## RCR_III (Mar 19, 2011)

I do the exact same as well.


cbrunson said:


> I've found this true as well. I tend to go shorter with DL as the ata gets longer to get the right head position. .......and lower with the release (or longer d-loop) to keep from getting cramped up.


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## antlers21 (Jan 1, 2005)

Maybe you are just not getting the time to get use to the different string angle? Peep sits different because of angle and so does anchor


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## Reverend (Nov 2, 2004)

Ok I played a little with DL, meaning I shortened it by adding a few twists to the string. 
It seemed to steady up a bit, but I still see quite a bit of movement. Here's a vid of the movement I'm seeing through a laser. 
It may not look bad, but the target is about 7 yards away. Once I get to 20, you can imagine how that'll be magnified.


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## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

When you go from only shooting hunting bows to shooting a target bow that is heavy and fully stabilized it takes a while to become comfy with the weight. Then once you spend months shooting it and then pick up your hunting bow it will feel horrible and light and weird. 

Take your time and it will come around. Right now working on good form and smooth execution is your key.


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## JF from VA (Dec 5, 2002)

Padgett is spot on, mass weight of the bow can be an issue. There could be other issues, but reducing the weight is something you can easily experiment with. Scale down your stabilizer weights or remove them entirely and see if you notice a difference in hold. I experienced the same thing after shoulder surgery a couple years ago. The Hoyt target bow was I shooting was like a brick when I tried to hold it. I ended up having to go to a lighter bow reduce my overall mass weight until I built my strength back up.


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## swbuckmaster (Dec 20, 2005)

Put your bow on your draw board. Measure center of peep to center of arrow. Make sure this measurement is the same on both bows. If this measurement is the same and your draw and loop are the same it shouldn't matter if the ata is different. They will both feel the same in draw. However the bow weight, can be a factor.

From my observations reading your own diagnosis is the draw on your pce is long. A good sign is its long is you say your sight picture is all over the place. The second sign is you say you shortened it and it got better. Keep going shorter until you like what you see. Results based tunning!!

Another observation it's long is a lighter bow slightly long will be easier to hold on the dot then a heaver bow. Also the holding weight on a spiral cam may be more then your used to. I'd also suggest going down in bow weight.

Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk


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## RCR_III (Mar 19, 2011)

Keep an eye on your release arm's wrist. Make sure there isn't a bend in it. 

Once you get the bend out and the string is just barely touching the nose, then you'll probably need to lengthen the d loop to get the back muscles working for you to hold steadier. 

The hardest part will be breaking the muscle memory of the release side wrist to get the elbow up when you draw and keep the wrist straight. 

Drawing with the elbow up and arm straight will engage the back muscles from the beginning and keep the alignment in the wrist easier throughout the shot. It'll also get you used to using the larger muscles in the back versus the smaller ones in the arm. 

Then it's just slow and methodical with the release. Watch your float before you start your execution and if it changes during execution, pick it apart and find out why.


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## dmacey (Mar 27, 2015)

My experience with wobbling pins, which is quite ample, unfortunately: in my case it was an alignment issue which I discovered this past summer. The symptom was a draw length that had ended up mis-adjusted short by approx. 1 1/2". To make a very long story short, once I'd corrected my upper body alignment, the string was nearly an inch away from my face at the wall with the 28" setting I had at the time. At the end of the day, the mods were set at 29.5", I had a new D loop and a turn or two on the limb bolts to allow for the more "inside" alignment I use now.

The scope is now much steadier, especially if my grip is setup right during the shot.

So for me, going hog-wild shortening the draw length had some dire consequences without me realizing it. I like to let my alignment drive the draw length, not the other way around, but that's just my personal approach to setting it. I also agree about mass weight, that can cause me to move around excessively even with good alignment. So taking stuff off the bow is a good $0.00 experiment that's easy to do.

DM


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## Reverend (Nov 2, 2004)

*Update...*

Ok this is the most recent outing. 
Scored a 299/42x. The one shot I dropped got away as I was still settling in. It occurred in the eleventh round. Throughout the rounds, the hold and execution was quite varied. On a few shots the hold was rock solid, but no matter how much I tried to determine what attributed to the great hold, I couldn't figure it out. Some shots were all over the place. Some held solidly then deteriorated rapidly. 
Do you think this is an issue of practice, alignment, stab set-up, mental game? All of these? 
BTW FWIW the pic is rotated incorrectly. It should be rotated clockwise, with written score on top.


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## duc (Jul 18, 2009)

Have you tried shooting the old bow and new back to back? If so what are the results?


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## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

Since I came back from my surgery I am simply not as good as I was before, My float is just bigger and I think we just have to put in the time enjoying our shooting and putting in the time to let the muscles all get back to being able to do the job like or even better than before we got cut on. All I can tell you is that I am still doing things the same way I did them before and I am sending smoothly executed shots to the target, the fact that my float is bigger is something that I believe will improve over time as my body gets more and more solid. This week leading up to the iowa pro am I was able to do a 4.5 hour training session where I never stopped shooting and the next day I wasn't sore at all so I think I am back to shooting shape now and hopefully the stability in my float will start to come back soon. 

My biggest issue right now is that I simply feel different every time I step up to the line to shoot another end, I might shoot three awesome shots on the previous end shooting three baby x's and then when it is time to shoot the next three arrows it is like I am in a different body and everything from head to toe feels different. Even though I am aware of the problem and am trying to simply execute smooth shots with the same good feel it is almost impossible to do so. There are times where I am able to do it for 20 shots or so and I will shoot awesome but then I step up there and I am in some different body again. 

In the end I really think that if you have good training goals to achieve and are doing your work to reach those goals in the end you will get there and then be able to make some new ones. Like I said above I am basing mine on shooting smooth executions that feel the same each and every time and not what the target looks like and my score.


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## Reverend (Nov 2, 2004)

Padgett said:


> ...My biggest issue right now is that I simply feel different every time I step up to the line to shoot another end, I might shoot three awesome shots on the previous end shooting three baby x's and then when it is time to shoot the next three arrows it is like I am in a different body and everything from head to toe feels different. Even though I am aware of the problem and am trying to simply execute smooth shots with the same good feel it is almost impossible to do so. There are times where I am able to do it for 20 shots or so and I will shoot awesome but then I step up there and I am in some different body again.



Well said. This describes me perfectly. I'm not quite comfortable. Some shots are smooth and break cleanly. Others feel like I've hung-up and have forgotten what comes next. The most annoying aspect is not being able to pinpoint the source of the discomfort. If I can't analyze and determine what caused this excellent shot, then I have a poor chance of duplicating it. It seems like I'm estimating, experimenting and tweaking every shot to find that perfect hold and execution...


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

I PMed with Padgett earlier today. I'm thinking some hold over from surgery, like from the anesthesia causing concentration issues or the surgery weighing on us mentally?

Discomfort or stress?...... I draw pretty much dead on target, never above (and maybe I should) or sky drawing, even with my 62 pound hunting bow. If my pin is slightly low, say bottom of the bull's, okay. If my pin is way low I got problems. One, I have dual limb stops, I have stress if into the wall and there is no raising the bow without ill results. Two, my bow now weighs right at 8 pounds to as much as 8 pounds 2 ounces.
Okay, it's just plain fact it's easier to come down than go up....
Still chuckling a bit with today. If I drew dead on and pulling into the wall maybe a tad too much, my pin would floating back and forth, but centered to the bull's eye. I could have swore my pin was clear off the bull's eye and the arrow still got in.

Something (s) ain't working as before the accident. Not so much as a lack of strength, but not working smoothly or lack of bodily communication. The large muscle where the incision is has not filled back in, like a groove right through the middle of the muscle.

I have been having outstanding results with changing my manner of firing my thumb release. Seems if I pull or use back tension I pull off. If I hold and pull smoothly with my ring finger I can get some arrow slapping, nock busting, pin bending shots off from 20 back to 30 yards. I have had some real on target/arrow touching shots from 35 yards. I'd try 40 yards, but one range is too slippery (standing on uphill grade at 40 yards) and my 100 yard range is water logged.

Healed up pretty good I think, but don't think for a second that I don't fear falling on my overhauled shoulder. 

I tried shooting in my garage and that proved a joke. I can't see, I can't concentrate, I don't know, but I had groups the size of spread hand.


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## EPLC (May 21, 2002)

I too am recovering from a shoulder issue and have been "all over the place". The good news is I'm at a point where only about half on my shots now fall into this category... with the other half being some of the best shots I've ever made. Low poundage and reduced mass weight has allowed me to discover things that I have been missing in the past. Even though my scores still suck bigtime I'm really pleased with my good shots...


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

Good going, EPLC. Sort of off and on for me, but smoothing out...


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## Reverend (Nov 2, 2004)

SonnyThomas said:


> Good going, EPLC. Sort of off and on for me, but smoothing out...



Glad to hear things smoothing out for you Sonny. 
Today I felt like I made a little progress. Though I didn't shoot for score, I simply stood on the line and introduced one variable at a time to see if my hold improves, deteriorates, or stays the same. After dozens of different combinations, I noticed that my best hold occurs when I'm most relaxed on the back end and hand. Rather than holding hard against the wall, if I find that spot of maximum let-off the dot barely moves for a good amount of time. If I pull too hard, the dot movement increases. Of course the challenge is getting the shot to break during that time of minimal movement which involves pulling ever so slightly while relaxing the hand. My hand was so relaxed that i dropped the release several times after the shot.:chortle:
I may need to find a rope for this thing...


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

I plead the 5th Amendment.........


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## Reverend (Nov 2, 2004)

SonnyThomas said:


> I plead the 5th Amendment.........


Huh? Was it something I said? :dontknow:


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

I still plead the 5th Amendment


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## dmacey (Mar 27, 2015)

Glad you guys are getting back in also. I'm just now at the point where only fatigue is the issue and I'm finally shooting in our local league without damage/pain. I can get through warmup plus shoot a 600 round without a problem. Feels like it's been forever since I could just shoot 60 arrows, regardless of where they actually go....

DM


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## ILOVE3D (Feb 4, 2009)

The thought just occurred to me that many of us here on the IA forum have had some type of shoulder/rotator cuff/surgery of some type. Perhaps it's just something that when we get near the top of the hill (over the hill gang) perhaps we should slow down (perhaps crank our bows down) just a bit. Yes, I've had rotator cuff surgery and like many others on here coming back we all it seems are all over the place and slowly things come back to near what we used to shoot and sometimes even beyond due to all the tips we've received from others on here. Keep up the work, things do come back when you work at it. Thank you all for your valuable suggestions over the years.


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## Reverend (Nov 2, 2004)

duc said:


> Have you tried shooting the old bow and new back to back? If so what are the results?


No I haven't tried that yet... 
May do so next time just to compare.


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## Reverend (Nov 2, 2004)

Once again... a 299 / 45X
Seem to be stuck...


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## subconsciously (Aug 22, 2009)

Spirals are a whole different animal. They will let you know of form flaws - creeping/collapsing. You need a strong shot for spirals. Stick with them, it'll do you good.


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## RCR_III (Mar 19, 2011)

Reverend said:


> Once again... a 299 / 45X
> Seem to be stuck...


Open your stance just a touch. Half inch back on the front foot. See if it helps.


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## grantmac (May 31, 2007)

Reverend said:


> Once again... a 299 / 45X
> Seem to be stuck...


What order do you shoot them in?


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## Reverend (Nov 2, 2004)

RCR_III said:


> Open your stance just a touch. Half inch back on the front foot. See if it helps.


Will try that...


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## Reverend (Nov 2, 2004)

grantmac said:


> What order do you shoot them in?



"3" 
top left
top right
center
bottom right
bottom left


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## grantmac (May 31, 2007)

Other than that oops your middle target is the strongest. Seems to me that you might be just a little bit TOO comfortable with it. Stay aggressive and make sure you aren't accepting anything but the shot you know you can make. That target says you have everything to be a 300 shooter every single time you pick up your bow, but only if you demand it of yourself.


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