# Another question about flights in tournaments?



## seafaris (Jul 29, 2012)

Maybe I'm looking at this wrong, but how are flights determined? What was the thinking in determining this process? For instance if you have 5 flights, and one archer finishes at the bottom on one, and the top guy of the next lower flights win their flight even though they didn't shoot well. Thanks!


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## Iowa shooter (Feb 23, 2013)

seafaris said:


> Maybe I'm looking at this wrong, but how are flights determined? What was the thinking in determining this process? For instance if you have 5 flights, and one archer finishes at the bottom on one, and the top guy of the next lower flights win their flight even though they didn't shoot well. Thanks!


At Vegas you are not in a flight until the third day. They add your first two days together for your score .


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

Check the NFAA Constitution & By-Laws. There is a breaking down chart or at least was. Example; 30 in class, Flight A, B and C with 7 each and Flight D with 9. 49 in class and then A,B,C,D, and E (all 7 each) and F with 14.

Yes, it's always been the pits, last person in, say Flight C with a 280 gets nothing and a person who shootgs 270 in Flight D gets a 1st place award. Well actually 3 - 1st, 2nd and 3rd.


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## Iowa shooter (Feb 23, 2013)

SonnyThomas said:


> Check the NFAA Constitution & By-Laws. There is a breaking down chart or at least was. Example; 30 in class, Flight A, B and C with 7 each and Flight D with 9. 49 in class and then A,B,C,D, and E (all 7 each) and F with 14.
> 
> Yes, it's always been the pits, last person in, say Flight C with a 280 gets nothing and a person who shootgs 270 in Flight D gets a 1st place award. Well actually 3 - 1st, 2nd and 3rd.


That's why flights don't make sense.


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## seafaris (Jul 29, 2012)

That's what i was thinking also. I could see it with young kids where if you weren't a good shooter you wouldn't feel left out, and that you still have a chance at winning something. What's the point of being in a big shoot and finishing 1st in flight 5, and 81st overall if there were 100 shooters. If it were me I sure wouldn't be bragging about finishing first in my flight.


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## TNMAN (Oct 6, 2009)

seafaris said:


> That's what i was thinking also. I could see it with young kids where if you weren't a good shooter you wouldn't feel left out, and that you still have a chance at winning something. What's the point of being in a big shoot and finishing 1st in flight 5, and 81st overall if there were 100 shooters. If it were me *I sure wouldn't be bragging about finishing first in my flight.*


I wouldn't either, but if you're talking Vegas, you would be counting a few greenbacks---enough to pay for the trip for some.


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## seafaris (Jul 29, 2012)

lol...well if I won some money I would, but I can see why it would upset most of the other shooters. I would guess the sponsors get more people shooting which = more $$.


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## TNMAN (Oct 6, 2009)

seafaris said:


> lol...well if I won some money I would, but I can see why it would upset most of the other shooters. I would guess the sponsors get more people shooting which = more $$.


The "chance to win some money back" is a good part of why Vegas is so successful, and at least some of the reason 3d left field in the dust, imho.


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## wa-prez (Sep 9, 2006)

The main idea of flights is to make the competition a little softer.

Depending on the tournament rules, and the expected total participation, the cutoff is usually at 15. So if there are more than 15 in a competitive category (i.e. Adult Male Freestyle) the category will be broken into groups of no more than 15.

Idea is to encourage participation by giving some recognition to those who fit into the top of their flight, even it that is the 2nd (or 10th) flight. Otherwise, some would think, "why should I even compete, I know I won't finish higher than 30th".

And yes, it does put a little "luck of the draw" into the situation, whether you finish at the bottom of one flight or the top of the one below it.

USUALLY, you know after the first or second day of competition which flight you are in, and it is a feeling almost if the competition is starting fresh. Now I don't need to beat EVERYBODY, which I probably can't do even if I shoot perfect today, I only need to beat the other people in my flight.

Not really much glory in it, but it adds a little zip.


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

seafaris said:


> That's what i was thinking also. I could see it with young kids where if you weren't a good shooter you wouldn't feel left out, and that you still have a chance at winning something. What's the point of being in a big shoot and finishing 1st in flight 5, and 81st overall if there were 100 shooters. *If it were me I sure wouldn't be bragging about finishing first in my flight*.


But people due brag... Long time ago now, but.... I took 2nd in the IAA 3D State Championship in Championship Flight. And of all things, my friend took 1st in Flight C and and had his gold pin on his quiver and yes; "I got 1st" when he was asked. When they hand out awards...pins in this case, they should have stamp for Flight. Yeah, pins are all the same through the Flights, just Gold, Silver, Bronze the difference.


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## Mestang99 (Jan 10, 2013)

I personally am not a fan of the everyone should get something mentality. I had a severe equipment issue at State this year and shot terrible. I ended up placing in my flight, so I donated the award back to the State Association as they give $5, per returned award, to scholarships. I personally would rather see them pay deeper than to do flights... Example being, pay out to 10th instead of stopping at 3rd and then doing flights... 

If they want to make flights work they need to look at them this way... They should only be used in multiple day shoots. Your score in day one sets your flight and then you can see your competition to win your flight. So if you are a 285 shooter you shoot against other 285 shooters. That way it is fun, competitive, and you can be proud you beat your peers. The flighting systems where they just pick and choose who gets paid at random don't make sense and should be removed to the above idea of paying deeper into the top shooter ranks.


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## wa-prez (Sep 9, 2006)

Mestang99 said:


> I personally am not a fan of the everyone should get something mentality.
> If they want to make flights work they need to look at them this way... They should only be used in multiple day shoots. Your score in day one sets your flight and then you can see your competition to win your flight. So if you are a 285 shooter you shoot against other 285 shooters. That way it is fun, competitive, and you can be proud you beat your peers.


I don't think I have ever seen flights used in a single-day tournament, but then I don't often go to or pay attention to anything that isn't 2-3 days. 

And in that case, yes the flights are usually based on the first round, or the total of the first two rounds, very seldom based on the overall total score.

I DO NOT like those which are based on total score, that does feel too much like gambling. If based on the first round, now you know who your (more select) set of competitors are, and who you need to beat to bubble to the top of this smaller pack.


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## gobblinfool (Dec 6, 2004)

They do flights to keep people coming back, it is the same thing as handicapping league scores, if they didn't, then people would stop competing, this way, everyone has a chance at winning something, just like golf.


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## Ned250 (Aug 10, 2009)

I understand wanting to attract more shooters, but ugh. Flights are so lame.


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## ron w (Jan 5, 2013)

the only way flights work fairly is with multiple scores being shot. your first score puts you in a flight, your second score places you in that flight. the bad thin is that you can sandbag ourself into a lower flight and win the flight. there are usually rules in place that prevent a flight winner from entering the same flight in subsequent years. at least it helps to keep shooters somewhat honest by making him move up a flight every time he shoots the tournament.....eventually the sandbagger ends up in the champion flight, that way.


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

Whipping a "dead horse" guys. Want to change it, jump on your State Reps and go from there.


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## gobblinfool (Dec 6, 2004)

The truth is....you shouldn't care about flights or where you placed.....only with how you shot.....would you rather win and shoot a par score or be in the middle of the pack and shoot a PR? Yes there are sandbaggers.....some people "have to" win.....you won't change that....in the end why do you compete....sure you want to know you are the best...but if you are a hunter....hopefully its so when the moment of truth comes.....and your heart is in your throat like in competition....that you execute the same way....killing your animal quickly with a great shot......that is why 3d got started way back when


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## CarlV (Mar 12, 2008)

ron w said:


> the only way flights work fairly is with multiple scores being shot. your first score puts you in a flight, your second score places you in that flight.


I agree, Ron.

There is a fairly large 2-day shoot up this way in the fall where they take the total 2-day score and simply draw arbitrary lines for the cutoffs between the flights. There has been almost $200 dollars awarded to flight winners. This strikes me as so unfair that I simply won't get irritated and shoot this one.

Take a tip from Golfers on how to run flights.

Oh, on the sandbagging........lower the prize money as the flights get lower.


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## lknchoppers (Jun 13, 2008)

I think they should do away with flights, it is the dumbest concept. Payback more of the top shooters, flights are rediculous.


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## Mahly (Dec 18, 2002)

I understand the need (or desire) for flights. Without them, many won't shoot an event as they know they are just going there to get their butts kicked. It's basically a door prize.
I do not think you should get a trophy for "winning" a flight.
I do think they should pay out to more people in the top flight, and each lower flight should "win" less money as well.
The sandbagging thing...yeah, if you shoot crap until the flights are picked just so you can suddenly shoot lights out to win your flight...just plain wrong.
Flights are not awards based on your shooting, they are random prizes to get more people interested in paying to shoot a tournament.
My $.02


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## montigre (Oct 13, 2008)

lknchoppers said:


> I think they should do away with flights, it is the dumbest concept. Payback more of the top shooters, flights are rediculous.


I feel flights are a good thing where people who are relatively new to the sport can shoot at the larger competitions and gain valuable experience they will not receive shooting only local events. I also do not believe flight winners should get big trophies or monetary pay outs, but receive a small pin or plaque to commemorate their effort. 

In fact, I'm not sold on the premise of amateurs shooting for prize money is a good thing to do. If the money factor were removed, there would be a lot less pencil pushing going on in the amateur ranks (more so in some games than others). Let's face it, there is not a single amateur in the world who is making their living by shooting archery and the very off chance of winning back a part of your entry fee is not worth what some are doing to gain that edge--.


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## ron w (Jan 5, 2013)

flights aren't necessarily "ridiculous", they have their purpose without them. the average shooter just watches the same small group of shooters winning all the time. the NFFA tries to make it at least rewarding for those who aren't in the top 10 percent be competitive at their own level. that's not to say everyone that shoots should get a blue ribbon, but there are plenty of guys that will never reach that level of shooting and still enjoy the competition. it works as well as handicapping in bowling if it's done right and fairly, the problem is with the competitors abusing the system....thus the rule about moving up a class when you win in the lower brackets. that rule is key, because it eliminates the same redundancy that we are seeing in the championship flights.....the subject matterof this thread.


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## Mahly (Dec 18, 2002)

I agree 100%! Perhaps if your not in contention for the win, an amateur can stay interested in watching his/her progress through the flights. E.g. I would rather see myself moving from flight C to flight A rather than worrying about "winning" flight C


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## jrdrees (Jun 12, 2010)

Archery is full of stepping stones and plateaus, peaks and valleys... a roller coaster. Flights for most folks are the consolation prize for those with the stones to go to a major archery gathering and have a poor shooting day/week.


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## montigre (Oct 13, 2008)

jrdrees said:


> Archery is full of stepping stones and plateaus, peaks and valleys... a roller coaster. Flights for most folks are the consolation prize for those with the stones to go to a major archery gathering and have a poor shooting day/week.


I like your analogy about the peaks and valleys associated with archery, but I do not believe most are attending the larger shoots with the mindset of just garnering a consolation prize in the flights. I believe most, like Mahly stated, are using the flights as a self-measure of where they may stand on a national level so they can put in the work to move up. 

I too would much rather be at the bottom of the championship flight than first in one of the lower flights, but very few, if any, can burst onto the national scene and expect to show well in the championship flight right off the bat.


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

ron w said:


> flights aren't necessarily "ridiculous", they have their purpose without them. the average shooter just watches the same small group of shooters winning all the time. the NFFA tries to make it at least rewarding for those who aren't in the top 10 percent be competitive at their own level. that's not to say everyone that shoots should get a blue ribbon, but there are plenty of guys that will never reach that level of shooting and still enjoy the competition. it works as well as handicapping in bowling if it's done right and fairly, the problem is with the competitors abusing the system....thus the rule about moving up a class when you win in the lower brackets. that rule is key, because it eliminates the same redundancy that we are seeing in the championship flights.....the subject matterof this thread.


Lost me, ron_w. I haven't see one made to move up in NFAA, whether class or flights... ASA doesn't have flights and I don't think IBO does either. And I don't necessarily agree with ASA's rule of being moved out in all instances, but another story....


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## ron w (Jan 5, 2013)

sonny, they don't any more. I was just using the explanation as a example of how it was and could be done. 
years ago, in the 70's, the NFAA had divisions for their competition and leagues that were tied to those divisions. the division you shot in for competition, was based on your NFAA certified league scores. once you won a tournament in your division, you had to step up to the next division for competitions. the "divisions" were commonly called flights at that time.


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## kramster (Jan 19, 2014)

And don't forget if 25 guys who have a real chance of winning the top price enter you have 25 entry fees to split. If 100 guys enter because they could win a flight, then you get to split 100 entry fees. There is more money to split when more play. And like in golf you should set the pay scale by the flight. Flight C should make less for 1st, then flight a does for 3rd.


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

ron w said:


> sonny, they don't any more. I was just using the explanation as a example of how it was and could be done.
> years ago, in the 70's, the NFAA had divisions for their competition and leagues that were tied to those divisions. the division you shot in for competition, was based on your NFAA certified league scores. once you won a tournament in your division, you had to step up to the next division for competitions. the "divisions" were commonly called flights at that time.


Okay, got cha.... ???? Is the Handicap system even used?


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## Geoff.Gonseth (Nov 5, 2012)

It is what it is. Happened to me at the First Dakota Classic in Yankton, SD a few weeks ago. I shot a 1160 - 39X for the 2 day tourney. Placed 14th, which was second to last in championship flight, got nothing. Guy who placed 16th also shot a 1160, just with 35x's, he got $500 something for winning his flight. Not complaining, just need to shoot better so that I am at the top and flighting wont matter then.


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