# Indoor Limbs - Wood or Foam core??



## theminoritydude (Feb 11, 2013)

What's the range of relative humidity at where the limbs are going to be used and stored?


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## vabowdog (Dec 13, 2007)

I've shot both and personally like bamboo better than foam.


Dewayne


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## anmactire (Sep 4, 2012)

For whatever reason wood core limbs tend to be smoother. I think this is more due to the manufacturers of some high end limbs actually changing more than just the core on the limbs but go figure. Foam will be faster but only marginally so.


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## Last_Bastion (Dec 5, 2013)

I prefer the wood, but just because I have a mental block on using foam. I spend too much time thinking about how odd it is and not about my shooting. 

But more to the point, why can't you use your Ultimates? Those are really good limbs.


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## Mr. Roboto (Jul 13, 2012)

I am curious about the realities of making this type of a choice. Once someone has their bow set up for shooting with a set of limbs (different limbs may need a different setup), does it really matter what the limbs are made out of? Do limbs make someone a better shooter?

I have been shooting the same wooden limbs for 10 years now, and have put over 25k arrows through them.

Or is this more of a psychological thing? If one starts to have no confidence in their gear, their shooting performance goes down. But when they get a new piece of hardware, their excitement goes up, the shoot a little better because of a higher state of motivation, and thus sell fulfilling their desire that new gear helps with their scores?

I know that there is a lot of really high tech (and bloody expensive and excessively overpriced) materials out there, but do they really make a significant difference? If wood is such a crappy material, then why do all the high tech limb manufacturers still make wooden limbs.


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## zal (May 1, 2007)

Makes no difference. I prefer wood for the feel.


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## arc2x4 (Jun 4, 2007)

What exactly is carbon foam? Carbon doesn't foam it is an innert and stable material. So the foam part is something else, does carbon foam mean polyurethane, or urea formaldehyde chemical foam with carbon fiber mixed in?

I also see the term Honey Foam used on some Win& Win limbs what is that and how does it differ? Looking at the edge of my xq1 honey comb foam carbon limbs I see some lines so is there a carbon fiber honey comb burried in some synthetic foam?

ok here is some technical info for those interested on Honey Comb Carbon foam apparently a patented material : 

http://www.carbon-core.com/honeycomb-foamfilled.htm


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## UrbanDeerSlayer (Feb 10, 2012)

There is nothing wrong with my SF Ultimate Pros, I like them a lot. But sadly they are no longer in production. 

So, besides the obvious physical differences I guess it's sort of a "feel" thing. Probably not much of a difference in actual performance for either limb at 18m. 

I shoot a lot of wood core limbs, mostly hickory, in my longbows. I have not spent any real measurable time shooting wood core recurve limbs. 

I am trying to avoid overly priced limbs, I noticed there are a lot of options in the under $300 range, with wood and foam cores, so that lead me to start this thread.

Thanks so far.


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## vabowdog (Dec 13, 2007)

I've got the exact same limbs one is double carbon and bamboo core the other is foam core with double carbon built by the exact same build...the bamboo draws just a touch smoother throughout the draw and at the release the bamboo is smoother...the foam seems like it has a crack right at the shot.

Does it make ALOT of difference probably not but I score better with my bamboo than carbon foams..so thats all I need.


Dewayne


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## grantmac (May 31, 2007)

Personally I think I'm likely to stick with wood for the future. Just don't see the added benefit of foam.

The new limbs from Fivics seem to be a real bargain along the lines of the SF line last year. The Pegasus and Titan Pure in particular seem to have a good amount of carbon, including 45 degree bias for stability and minimal use of fiberglass. Sound similar to the Border TXBs which I had a truly wish I hadn't sold.

-Grant


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Indoors or outdoors, it matters not. Wood or foam, it matters not. 

Pick the one you like the feel and sound of, and go shoot.


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## TER (Jul 5, 2003)

arc2x4 said:


> What exactly is carbon foam? Carbon doesn't foam it is an innert and stable material. So the foam part is something else, does carbon foam mean polyurethane, or urea formaldehyde chemical foam with carbon fiber mixed in?
> 
> I also see the term Honey Foam used on some Win& Win limbs what is that and how does it differ? Looking at the edge of my xq1 honey comb foam carbon limbs I see some lines so is there a carbon fiber honey comb burried in some synthetic foam?
> 
> ...


I think you're mixing up some things. I've never heard of "carbon foam." There are limbs that have layers of carbon and also layers of foam. Two separate substances. 

I doubt you'll see a performance difference between wood core and foam core limbs at 18 meters indoors. But I prefer wood core limbs for a couple reasons. Feel, which is completely personal. I perceive foam core limbs to have a harsher louder sound to them. Obviously, my preference is very personal and subjective, so not objective at all.


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## steve morley (Dec 24, 2005)

I've been shooting 36# Kaya Tropics for last couple of years, I tried some cheap 32# Axiom plus limbs but was more comfy with them wound in to 34#, I have some 36# Kaya Storms on the way, I tried some a few weeks ago and really liked them.

The weight rather than material seems more important to me, the 42# CV limbs are nice but it,s hard work to keep complete control, I can shoot mid 280's on a good day, with the 36# limbs I can shoot same scores but I still feel comfortable to do a couple more rounds and maintain 280's.

I plan to compare all the limbs over several weeks to see what gives the most consistent results.


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## zal (May 1, 2007)

All the best limbs I've shot were wood, though a pair of early Winexes I had were pretty sweet, later models were quite different. I did like Hoyt FX's too for the feel.

Difference in speed is minimal, I once measured about 1fps between W&W apex prime and foam.

I doubt weather or temperature makes much difference, after all high quality competition ski's are made in same method, and you don't see cross country ski's or skijumpers' equipment snapping in the cold. As a matter of fact, there are factories which make both ski's and bow limbs side by side.


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## theminoritydude (Feb 11, 2013)

zal said:


> All the best limbs I've shot were wood, though a pair of early Winexes I had were pretty sweet, later models were quite different. I did like Hoyt FX's too for the feel.
> 
> Difference in speed is minimal, I once measured about 1fps between W&W apex prime and foam.
> 
> I doubt weather or temperature makes much difference, after all high quality competition ski's are made in same method, and you don't see cross country ski's or skijumpers' equipment snapping in the cold. As a matter of fact, there are factories which make both ski's and bow limbs side by side.


I couldn't test the ski's where I live.....


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## theminoritydude (Feb 11, 2013)

Also, are there skis made with foam core?


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## zal (May 1, 2007)

Yep.

There's a lot more money in skiing so technology is perhaps more advanced. There are a lot of different synthetic core options for different cross country disciplines, as well as downhill and ski jumpers. And they usually cost a lot more than a pair of limbs. A lot of them are made with Nomex or other Aramid honeycomb cores, with some acrylic foam to dampen a bit. There are still wood laminates in many skis, stuff like Paulownia. Downhill skis have generally more wood in them, cross country and ski jumping skis have more light weight foams and syntetic cores. The sidewalls are usually still wood in most or all of them.


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## theminoritydude (Feb 11, 2013)

You're a Fin! I'll take your word for it


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## steve morley (Dec 24, 2005)

theminoritydude said:


> You're a Fin! I'll take your word for it


Siim the owner of Falco started off he career building Ski's, he also owns a Ski Company but he doesn't manufacture Ski's, just Bows.


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## wfocharlie (Feb 16, 2013)

I have seen people build their own backyard bows using a pair of skis for the limbs.


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## steve morley (Dec 24, 2005)

wfocharlie said:


> I have seen people build their own backyard bows using a pair of skis for the limbs.


do they shoot faster on the downhill shots :wink:


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## dchan (Jun 29, 2004)

Goode makes carbon skis with foam cores. 

Great ski and very light.


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## wfocharlie (Feb 16, 2013)

steve morley said:


> do they shoot faster on the downhill shots :wink:


Only with the right wax.


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## arc2x4 (Jun 4, 2007)

TER said:


> I think you're mixing up some things. I've never heard of "carbon foam." There are limbs that have layers of carbon and also layers of foam. Two separate substances.
> 
> I doubt you'll see a performance difference between wood core and foam core limbs at 18 meters indoors. But I prefer wood core limbs for a couple reasons. Feel, which is completely personal. I perceive foam core limbs to have a harsher louder sound to them. Obviously, my preference is very personal and subjective, so not objective at all.


Win & Win Cores are made of carbon nano foam

Here is a definition: Carbon nanofoam is an allotrope of carbon. An allotrope is a variant of a substance composed of only one type of atom. The best-known allotropes of carbon are graphite and diamond. Carbon nanofoam, the 5th allotrope of carbon, was discovered in 1997 by Andrei V. Rode and his team at the Australian National University in Canberra, in collaboration with Ioffe Physico-Technical Institute in St Petersburg. Its molecular structure consists of carbon tendrils bonded together in a low-density, mistlike arrangement.

A better answer to the OPs question is that you should try different limbs in your price range for feel. Given a shorter distance indoors lighter draw weight may be more of a consideration than the core material.


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## theminoritydude (Feb 11, 2013)

I learnt something today!


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## zal (May 1, 2007)

Here's a short brochure from limb laminate manufacturer. AFAIK a lot of modern compound bow limbs are made in those factories and delivered as blanks to manufacturers. I suspect some of those laminates are used in recurve bow limbs too. Here's a bit more detailed info on laminates.

The company's history is in ski poles and ice hockey sticks, as well as other industrial applications.


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## b0w_bender (Apr 30, 2006)

Once you get past the development of your form and have practice the sport for a while the real improvements you see in your scores can often be attributed to the confidence you feel in your ability to perform. So when you ask me the question about which laminate to use my answer is ... "the one you have the most confidence in" The reality of the matter is that if you stuck both types of bows in a machine and shot a full round with both they both would shoot perfect scores. So it isn't really the equipment that is the difference but the athletes belief in the equipment that is important.

As I read through these post I see a lot of really subjective answers like "feel better" and "Smoother" and "seems better" these are all non-measurable reactions, they are opinion and rooted in emotional feedback. These are perfectly legitimate answers because they feed into the confidence quotient. So if those are the things you are thinking about when you shoot one or the other then use the one you find most appealing. 

It would be a wonderful experiment to give one hundred experienced archers several different limb combinations that have been painted black so they cannot identify their content and mount them on the same model riser and then get feedback as to which they like the best. My suspicion would be that it would be close to random selection but I would be pleasantly surprised if there was a consistency in final selection.


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## Mad Wally (Apr 26, 2013)

b0w_bender said:


> "feel better" and "Smoother" and "seems better" these are all non-measurable reactions


Why are these non measurable? Smooth is a flat or decreasing draw force curve, some fast limbs sound harsh, some give high frequency vibrations, some take a long time before vibrations are gone (low damping). All of these are perfectly measurable. Feel is subjective -just as taste is- however the physics which result in the feeling are not.


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## theminoritydude (Feb 11, 2013)

Mad Wally said:


> Why are these non measurable? Smooth is a flat or decreasing draw force curve, some fast limbs sound harsh, some give high frequency vibrations, some take a long time before vibrations are gone (low damping). All of these are perfectly measurable. Feel is subjective -just as taste is- however the physics which result in the feeling are not.


I'm guessing that if the feeling of draw can be meaningfully measured, the result could then be posted here for us to discuss about?


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## theminoritydude (Feb 11, 2013)

What unit could we use? If not, is there an index?


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## UrbanDeerSlayer (Feb 10, 2012)

Interesting. Do manufacturers publish the draw force curves??. That way you could easily see the difference, if any, between a foam and a wood core limb from the same maker.


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## b0w_bender (Apr 30, 2006)

Mad Wally said:


> Why are these non measurable? Smooth is a flat or decreasing draw force curve, some fast limbs sound harsh, some give high frequency vibrations, some take a long time before vibrations are gone (low damping). All of these are perfectly measurable. Feel is subjective -just as taste is- however the physics which result in the feeling are not.


Precisely, there is no feel good unit or smoothness unit ...
Certainly you could measure the draw force curve, this is very common in compounds and a lot less obvious in recurves but still there.
You can measure vibrations there are oscillation per inch per second and so on, lots of measurables to distinguish between different building methods. That's not what was being offered in the threads though and that was my point. If manufacturers offered those as a basic course of action then we could use those as a basis for concrete comparisons. However it's a lot easier to build the perception of a competitive advantage if you leave the "details" about a limb out of the advertising and promote a limb as the smoothest, most dynamic, reactive technology ever. This certainly sounds wiz bang but doesn't really need to be backed up by any data.

When you are basing your purchasing decisions on how your pears are "Feeling" about a limb then we have dropped into the total realm of objectiveness. Of course if your personality is such that you gain the most confidence in equipment when others around you are using the same then this is very common and a perfectly legitimate way of approaching the problem. Back to my original premise I sincerely doubt there is any accuracy difference so..., use what ever gives you the most confidence.


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## DK Lieu (Apr 6, 2011)

Mad Wally said:


> Why are these non measurable? Smooth is a flat or decreasing draw force curve, some fast limbs sound harsh, some give high frequency vibrations, some take a long time before vibrations are gone (low damping). All of these are perfectly measurable. Feel is subjective -just as taste is- however the physics which result in the feeling are not.


Agreed. The analogy between "feel" and "taste" is a good one. I believe that "smoothness" can be quantified. The article on Olympic bow design found at the bottom of this page http://archery.berkeley.edu/about/ sums up my thoughts. My apologies to everyone who has already read this article, and to those who bookmarked its old location. To date, the only people who have published draw-force curves (DFC) and their first derivatives for public consumption have been Amateur Barbarian and the folks at Border Bows.


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## zal (May 1, 2007)

Does Michelin starred food taste better than homecooked?

I know I prefer limbs to "stack" a bit and a some people don't like that. Same reason I feel most wood limbs are better as they give more feedback after shot. Not to mention that they are usually heavier than foam limbs and that makes bow balance feel different. Also I like the *thud* sound of my old Sky limbs, but I'm also quite partial to the harsh sound that Uukhas make.

Lots of variants. All of which are subjected to personal feel.


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## grantmac (May 31, 2007)

UrbanDeerSlayer said:


> Interesting. Do manufacturers publish the draw force curves??. That way you could easily see the difference, if any, between a foam and a wood core limb from the same maker.


Border has, there is no difference in DFC.

-Grant


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## Vittorio (Jul 17, 2003)

grantmac said:


> ----- there is no difference in DFC.
> 
> -Grant


Yes, no difference. If limbs moulds are same and outside layers are same. Inner material only contributes to the total weight of the limb and acts as spacer to define the poundage of that specific limb, but curves shape only define the so called "smoothness" and drawing curves.
Then, one thing many do not consider is that a "wood core" limbs is made by a real layer of pure wood in low level limbs, only. High level limbs today are made by layers of stratified wood cut among its layes to grant omogeneity of strenght among the width of the final made layer, so there is a lot of glue inside the structure of these limbs, to call them really "wood core" limbs. As far as I know, Hoyt and W&W top level wood core limbs are made like this, for instance. So even real difference in inner material becomes much smaller then supposed to be.


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## theminoritydude (Feb 11, 2013)

Is it really the preference for different "feel" of the wood, or the "idea" of having wood core? The human mind works in very interesting ways.


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## zal (May 1, 2007)

I've also had wood limbs that feel like crap. Its not the magic potion.

For my personal preference, I like the limbs to have some mass and the reaction of bow that comes with it. Some "foam" limbs also do that, like old C+ foams, W&W XQ-1 and old Samick Extremes. MK Korea 1440's were perhaps most like a wood limb of any foam limbs I've shot, and I liked them a lot too. They had a lot of mass but were still very fast.


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