# Outdoor Target Fita: Correct etiquette for disputing judges scale



## dave* (Sep 9, 2008)

A quick question

Recently shot in a two day target event compound class.

On day one during tech inspection the judges easton digital scale had my bow at 63 pds, above legal limit of 60 per FCA book.

I did question this as my clubs scale which I had been assured was spot on ( also an easton digital) consistently measures at 58.3 for my bow, ( I purposely backed it off a bit to give some leeway for scale variance)

I have tried a few other of the roof mounted scales at shops with same bow and always hovering in that 58-59 pound range.

After a quick chat I was allowed to grab the club scale and compare, sure enough club scale 58.3, judge scale 63 point something.

I was allowed to shoot as judge was not sure of last if any calibration of scale.

The second day had a new judge and a new scale, this one measured out my bow at 53 pounds.


So two days, two judges scales, and a ten pound variation in reading on the same bow with no changes made.

I have scanned all the pertinent sections of the FCA rulebook ( 4, 7 etc) and can not find anything on judges scale requirements.

Also what would be the correct procedure to dispute a judges bow scale if they proved to be a bit on the obnoxiious/hardheaded side ( something neither of mine were).

thanks

D*


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## shakyshot (Dec 21, 2007)

Tell them to test there own bow if it is there.
Or get yourself a scale so you can reference it there on the spot.
If a judje does not want to dispute,they just wont

Shawn


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## CLASSICHUNTER (May 20, 2005)

Seems to me being digital they could have a 1lb weight and a 5 lb weight 10 lb weight on hand to check scale before to verify correctness or calibrate it in or correct to atmospheric pressure.. simple I think especially if it would be a sanctioned event where world or any record could be broken... Temperature will effect a spring scale greatly thats why they are tested to a certain temp and stamped at that temp..


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## Stash (Jun 1, 2002)

Correct etiquette is to politely inform the judge that his scale is in error, and ask him to prove that the scale is in fact accurate. Have the judge, in your presence, test several other bows belonging to archers who know what their bow weight is, and show by a preponderance of evidence that you are in the right.

Most officials these days are trained to be more easy-going, and will do as you experienced - take the archer's word. For local shoots, they are more flexible about the rules which don't really make any difference to the competition. 

However, once in a while you come across an old-school officious official who needs clarification on who is the more important person on the field, the athlete or the judge. I have on more than one occasion, when I KNEW FOR A FACT that I was right and the judge was wrong, offered him my scorecard and a red pen and suggested that he write "Disqualified" across the card, and present me with a written explanation of why I was disqualified so I can forward it to his superior. I have never had a judge take me up on the offer.

I sort of miss the good old days when judges often weren't so reasonable and you could have a lot of fun with them. "Show me the rule" was always good entertainment watching them scrabble through the book for about 10 minutes, even if you knew they were right. The other thing I liked doing (and still do) is when a small infraction is called, like standing half a step over the waiting line or something else trivial, make sure that you point out to that judge for the rest of the day every subsequent similar infraction by every other archer.


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## CLASSICHUNTER (May 20, 2005)

stash is that why when they see you coming they grimace and roll their eyes... lol lol just yanking your chain buddy...


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## dave* (Sep 9, 2008)

Stash I like your style. 

As I am somewhat new to the whole outdoor paper punching gig I am kind of going with the flow.

Now both judges in this episode were very laid back , but it is a bit of a concern as I hear about some real $%?&head judges on a powertrip,

What concerns me a lot is that in that entire FCA rule book I was unable to find anything about judge scale calibration accuracy
or a way to verify it if it comes to a dispute. FCA seems to have some goofy rules about everything else, just not about this.

D*


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## CLASSICHUNTER (May 20, 2005)

Dave like I said how hard is it to have weights on hand to verify accuracy ......


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## Baldini (Mar 7, 2005)

Ted, would you believe that if you had reference weights that they would also need a calibration sticker and certification? When was the last time you saw a cal sticker on a chrony?


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## CLASSICHUNTER (May 20, 2005)

I don`t mean friggin dumb bells lol .. you know from the weights and measures suppliers .. not your local head shop... lol lol the chronies all have stickers saying they aren`t accurate disclaimers..


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## NockOn (Feb 24, 2003)

You can always learn to cheat the scale on the second pull and avoid the whole mess :wink:

Beware though some judges are starting to pay attention to the point of picking you up on cheating the scale when you're actually not trying to cheat. This happened to me last year in Halifax for the Nationals.


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## FiFi (Dec 4, 2002)

dave* said:


> Stash I like your style.
> 
> As I am somewhat new to the whole outdoor paper punching gig I am kind of going with the flow.
> 
> ...




The calibrarion is in the Judges guide book, normaly in large events the scales are tested and guidelines set down on how it is to be run, many instances judges allow to 60.9lbs but some have gone with 60.0, if your over you have to adjust or repull. I personal have seen people try to cheat the scale which is fine I really don't care how you draw it only what it reads. I don't put to much into it since I have seen several including the easton scales read different weights depending on how fast you draw, so not only can you alter the reading by pulling on an an angle you can alter it by the speed you draw it.

One thing to remember is that many many of the current judges pool don't even shoot, so they may see a rule and place a higher importance on a rule because of perception ie back numbers,dress code etc.

My personal feeling is that the judge needs to make sure the distances are correct the target faces are correct equiment meets the requierments, keep an alternate timing system active and stay the hell out of the way.

Sean McKenty
National judge


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## Pete731 (Aug 9, 2002)

This is why I hate this rule ... I'm always shooting 59# and when the scale is incorrect and 5 archers who shoot 50# didn't say a word when they saw the scale showing 3-5# more ... I'm the one who get caught and have to argue!

I think 60# + 5% error margin should be better and even better, no limitation in poundage .. like the recurve :wink:

Also, I think this limitation stop 3D guys from trying a FITA during week-end, some of these guys pull 64# .... but don't want to change just to compete in a FITA event.

my 2¢ anyway!


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## CLASSICHUNTER (May 20, 2005)

you guys can`t pick 5 grains per pound for arrows.... your choice...???? weight or arrow.. 70 lb bow x 5 == minimum 350 grain arrow...


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## FiFi (Dec 4, 2002)

CLASSICHUNTER said:


> you guys can`t pick 5 grains per pound for arrows.... your choice...???? weight or arrow.. 70 lb bow x 5 == minimum 350 grain arrow...


thats for 3d only, target and fita field are 60lbs max

Sean


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## araz2114 (Jan 13, 2003)

Don't even get me going on the 5 grain per pound rule :angry: 

Sean, can you tell us the origin of the 60 lb rule? Was it buttress destruction? or?


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## x-hunta (Mar 10, 2010)

Pete731 said:


> This is why I hate this rule ... I'm always shooting 59# and when the scale is incorrect and 5 archers who shoot 50# didn't say a word when they saw the scale showing 3-5# more ... I'm the one who get caught and have to argue!
> 
> I think 60# + 5% error margin should be better and even better, no limitation in poundage .. like the recurve :wink:
> 
> ...


Recurves have a 60lb limit as well I am pretty sure, its just insane to shoot 60 with a recurve for competition.


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## hoody123 (Aug 11, 2004)

araz2114 said:


> Don't even get me going on the 5 grain per pound rule :angry:
> 
> Sean, can you tell us the origin of the 60 lb rule? Was it buttress destruction? or?


Can't you machine yourself some arm-extenders or something?


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## FiFi (Dec 4, 2002)

araz2114 said:


> Don't even get me going on the 5 grain per pound rule :angry:
> 
> Sean, can you tell us the origin of the 60 lb rule? Was it buttress destruction? or?


Ya butt damage was a big thing to the fita comittee, i thought it was bull myself ( build better butts) where they had a legitamite issues was bow breakage due to extreme setup, even with a 60lb limit many compounders are useing the stiffest arrows made, aswell as not having stuff blow up on TV, imagine some 80lb monster somthing shooting at 375fps coming apart on tv


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## ontario moose (Aug 8, 2003)

I seen some guy at the Spring Classic pull 62 lbs, told to bring the bow down.. he did bring it down and and then put it back to 62 lbs..

so much for that...


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