# Vegas Championship Payout Updates for 2012



## zestycj7

Barebow unchanged also for 2012?
Don.


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## FV Chuck

Yes Don - 

The only financial changes in effect are what you see above. 
There is a new rule in place for classes who have less than 20 or 25 participants but I don't think it will affect your group at all.
The essence of that new rule is to allow an adjustment to the payouts if the class isn't large enough. There was a situation not long ago in Barebow that allowed 125% of the revenue generated by entry fees to be paid back. In other words they lost quite a bit of money based on published payout guarantees vs what they actually took in.

CC


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## zestycj7

Chuck,
Thank you for the info.
Don.


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## Wilde

YOU HAVE GOT TO BE KIDDING - what is wrong with this picture?

Championship Male - No Change - 161 shooters 2011 / 180 in 2010 / 171 in 2009 / 211 in 2008
Championship Female - $4000 - 61 shooters 2011 / 53 in 2010 / 46 in 2009 / 48 in 2008
Senior Championship - $500 - 64 shooters 2011/2010 ($2500 NFAA Pro Bonus) / 67 in 2009 /79 in 2008
Classic Male Championship - $3600 - 39 shooters 2011 / 32 in 2010/2009 / 33 in 2008
Classic Female Championship - $3400 - 26 shooters 2011/ 15 in 2010 / 11 in 2009 / 13 in 2008

Championship Male is going backwords because you do NOT pay down for comparable scores. 2011 & 2009 w/899 70/68x's did not get PAID 2010 & 2008 298 79/69x's 0 money.
YOU SHOULD BE GAURANTEEING THE PRO'S A BETTER PAY DOWN!!!!

Not to mention the most consistant and growing class is the Seniors - But because I am a Senior, I am not going to address this.

You want to give $11,000 in HOPE to make them GROW - All of these 3 together do not generate the response of the "Championship Male" or participation. You could do a lot more with that money - IMHO.

Give me 1 Good Reason this is happening! I will support helping our Sport Grow - This is NOT it.

Sorry for the Soap Box

Dee Wilde


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## FV Chuck

Thank you Dee for your input. 
I think it's the first time you've ever offered me your opinion, wish it was more timely but I'll take it.

The one good reason was balance.

By the way #'s for 2011 vs recent history
Mens 184 (less) - no change
Senior 64 (less) - you got a raise and a Pro Guarantee (new for 2012?)
Womens 61 (more) - they got a raise
RLM 39 (more) they got a raise
RLF 26 (more, it doubled!) they got a raise
PLUS there is a guarantee min of $1000 for a 900 (new for 2012)

I asked the Council to put the money where the people were and reward them accordingly. The bar for winning money in Vegas, Louisville, Redding or any international event is extremely high. Now, I'd love to pay 70 places to cover the guys who shoot a 898.. I'll need a minimum of $5500 to do it. It puts the winner at $14,500....you get the top 20-30 guys to say yes on paper and in public, I'll give 1000% effort to make it happen, but if past experience is an indicator it's not going to fly.

Each of the classes that are seeing an increase is simply to bring up the percentage of the the payout pot to a more equal ratio. The classes with the largest increase were classes that had the least payouts by percentage. The men and seniors were already around 80% the others went as low as 35% payback. It was simply to strike an equal balance across the field.

As for guaranteeing deeper into the field for scores. There is only one way to do that....Take it from the top.
When I spoke to Reo and others who had won in the past it was a pretty solid no when it came to taking money out of the winners pocket.
It's also CRITICAL to understand this in NOT a Pro event...it's open. Anyone with $275 can play with the big dogs. If we can implement a mandatory Pro regulation I might have more to work with... 

FURTHER- It is part of a larger plan to identify and promote the 2 divisions that are CLEARLY the leaders in the world market. They are Compound Freestyle and Olympic Recurve, mens and womens in both. It simply cannot be disputed that World Archery has identified this and is narrowing the market to it. It should be our goal as PROS to follow suit and vie for part of that market share. It's obvious that it works.

Having the Council approve the marketing survey and move to analyze our demographic so we can seek outside/non-endemic sponsors will be critical to spreading the wealth through adding revenue derived from additional sponsorship funds. Doing what you ask got me crucified for "Obama" tactics or taking from the top to give to the bottom... how do I win this one?..I dont. I have to seek outside sources to add to the pool. Until that happens I'll at least do my best to get equal treatment for those who pay to play.

Now, I have nothing but respect for you, your family and your absolutely immeasurable contribution to this sport and this industry...so take this how you will. I have practically BEGGED for input from across the entire base of Pro's and I for the most part hear crickets until I have to try and make a decision. There is a very small group that actually offers anything. Then once a decision is made it's lead me to the gallows. 
You have my contact info, and my phone is always on. I would simply love to hear from you privately anytime at all to implement any idea you might have. Hammering me after the fact when I asked for input and got none is not ideal.

Respectfully
Chuck


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## Wilde

Chuck; 

We have spoke & I have offered my Opinion to you on other matters. But this is not the "Same" as discussed in Yankton or Louisville - I attended both meetings.

This kind of input or Money was not discussed at the Pro Meetings. There was a large discussion over taking Mens Money and giving it to the Ladies that was not recieved very well. Where did the $11,000 come from? You say that in order to pay the Male Championship down it had to come from the top, BUT YOU found $11,000 that did not come from the top and you want to give it to a division with only 11 participants in 2009 - $3,400 dollars. I am more than willing to give input if I know what is being discused. This is not what was discussed in Yankton, or at least not these terms. You are right, this is not a Pro or closed event this is open to anyone that wants in. So why try to drive for a Pro Recurve division when they still can compete. It seems recurve is like Soccer in the USA - It is big everywhere else but not here. Terry Martin tried somewhat the same thing when they gauranteed the Finger division the same payout as the release division, but it still went by the wayside. As far as an actual recomendation, I currently cannot because I do not have all the information. I raised the question because this was such a SHOCK to me. I recieved no Pro info (email or other) on this prior and to my knowledge I have not heard this from anyone else. Chuck - am not down on you - you have a thankless job and I am glad you did post it somewhere. This is only the second time I have been on Archery Talk for several years and that is how I find out what is going on at Vegas. Remember we have no say in Vegas because it is a Privately Owned tournament, so they can do what they want. But you are killing your Golden Goose IMHO. In the PGA the top 90 men are over $1,000,000 - LPGA only 7 - it is not an equal world and the sponsors realize it. The same thing has gone wrong when they tried to do this with the NBA & WNBA.

Another question comes to mind on this - Is there Money going to these divisions in the NFAA Tournaments? (NFAA National & Redding) If so - WHERE is it comming from? Sorry to keep opening a can of worms.

Thanks
Dee Wilde


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## FV Chuck

Dee- 

Clearly we have some difference of opinion here. For me to answer all of this on a public forum such as this would be extremely lengthy, could easily be taken the wrong way, and isn't really a matter suitable for genpop.

I think it's best if this goes private. We can have a much more constructive and healthier discussion.

I have asked a few times for your contact info and still dont have it. I'm sure it's why you haven't seen the e-mails etc on this and other very important topics unless one of the boys has forwarded it to you.

Sadly our communication process is still in the building phase but I'm working very very hard on it. I was not handed a contact list by any of the former chairs and have only been able to build a list through word of mouth and a little help from NFAA. The NFAA list though is also lacking in accuracy and detail.

Please shoot me your phone and e-mail you can text it to 607-343-8990, call me at the same # or e-mail me [email protected]

Chuck


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## bigGP

From the information Chuck has provided it seems pretty obvious that the additional monies put into these classes is coming FROM said classes by way of an equal payout % accross the board. Why is this so hard to understand? when one class is paid out at 80% or so and another at 35% or so it would make sense that if you equallled them all out as Chuck did there is going to be more money?Taking money from the Men and giving it to the Women went over like a fart in church so that isnt an option. Having an equal payout % for each of the given classes would seem to be a great starting place to not only reward classes that are growing but also enourage growth. NO money has been taken from any class to give it to another. If anyone wants deeper payouts just ask the ASA pro's that voted for that some time ago and see how they are liking it?…….. The winner gets about $2400 and 2nd gets about $1900-2000 and so-on down the ranks. How do you think REO,JESSE,RODGER,LOGAN,CHANCE,LEVI etc would feel if the rest of us Pro's voted that in??? The only way to get more money in a class at this point is GET MORE SHOOTERS in that class OR get outside sponsorships (Which isnt going to happen for a while because we have NO PRODUCT yet). Amazing how bad news,rumor's and BS travels at the speed of light but when productive input is needed from all of us by those charged to represent us we revert to smoke signals and carrier pidgeons? Come on man…. Dropping bombs in public after the fact seems to be the flavor du jour in our sport and does nothing but hold us back. EVERYONE has had the contact info for these pro chairs for…well pretty much ever. Nobody is going to rub Vaseline on anyones hinny and tell them its special and differrent from everybody else's so GET PROACTIVE and get involved. Just like our government..if you dont get involved and vote what right do you have to complain? Look at how many pros actually voted for the Pro chair? pffft comical! How many havent given their CURRENT contact info to the nfaa? It isnt until PRO"S all get involved and TAKE CONTROL that ANY sport breaks through (Golf,Tenis,Bull riding..the list goes on and on). Chuck has given his number openly here…..PLEASE use it. Can WE the Pro's at least APPEAR to show some solidarity publicaly for a change?


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## 2fingers

As being always one of the first people just out of the money, I would not take from 1st place to pay more places. I would like to see when/if there is outside sponsorships the top few shooters get the same money or a little more and then pay down more places. The $1000 for a 900 is a great start! The nfaa pro's have a closed facebook page. TY Chuck :wink: Joel


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## FV Chuck

Thanks Joel -

Yes actually part of the grand plan is to seek out and get some additional money in the pot. And then it certainly is viable to pay it deeper. Of course how much and how far kind of depends on the amount, but the idea is solid.

Thanks for the plug on the Facebook page as well.... as you mentioned it's a Private Group, you have to ask to join and I'll check to make sure your a Pro before being allowed to see and post. Here's the link.

http://www.facebook.com/groups/NFAAProArchers/

Thanks again for the support... see ya on the line

Chuck


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## brtesite

chuck, the last count a couple of years ago for the mid atlantic was 35 pros. Get a hold of tom cobletz from MD. he is the MA rep.


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## FV Chuck

Thank you Mike.

------------------------------

Dee -

STILL haven't heard from you?
I have some emails for you to help keep you up to date.

I dont want to sound crass but choosing to be un-informed at this point after asking you personally for you contact info again is exactly that.

Respectfully

Chuck


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## bigGP

FOR THOSE OF YOU THAT DONT THINK PEOPLE ARE WATCHING. Here is one of many messages I have recieved, this one just so happens to be worded very well so I thought I would share it. How many years,decades generations are PRO archers going to keep PREVENTING Professional archery from making progress? Seriously people wake up. Everyone wants to protect their own interest at the cost of the entire sport. It's embarrassing and the Org's & Manufactures USE it against us.



Not a Pro...but...

From the out-side looking in, a public forum is no place to air that laundry, as you stated, makes the Pro division (unfortunately, it is a bad apple thing) look foolish and myopic, and should be handled amongst the pros...the whole thing really makes the concept of "Pro" archery look foolish...why would anyone from the outside of the little archery world want to sponsor that? 

It also had the propensity, at least for me, to be turned off with the me first attitude that was expressed. No issue with Pros making cash, or a lot of it...some irony watching one publicly cannabalize the whole division over it.

One thing that I think needs to be considered from the Pro ranks (WTH basis do I have to say this) is the "interests" of the AMs. No allusions that the Am classes should get more $ (not sure we should get any...we're AMs for poops sakes) but the Pros need us, and we need them. Right now, and in the past, there has been a perception of seperation, which I don't think has been positive for either group. 

And, from a dumb AM, it was fairly easy to see what Chuck was doing, why, and the long term positive potential that exists...

Anyway...great response.

I'm out.




I thanked him for his time and the message.This is the kind of person we NEED more of in the Pro ranks IMO.


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## Wilde

Chuck/GP; Today is the first chance I have been able to get back "online" - that is why no response. I also got my Pro-Newsletter -TODAY - so you must have my contact information. It was given at the PRO meeting in Louisville & I said then I was willing to help in any way. However, YOU chose to POST here rather than send out the Newsletter first. If that would of gone out first, before posting here - none of this would of come out. But you chose to go in reverse. I will forward you all my contact information, again. GP; You need to check the % on the Pay Out because it is not 80 to 35. It was never stated that they were going to increase the % but the Payout. Payout is gauranteed and % is off of participation.
HERE is all of my contact information so NO one can say it is not available.

Thank You for the newsletter - I looks very Good.
Dee Wilde
208-436-0141 Office
208-241-5293 Cell
208-436-9643 FAX
[email protected]


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## bigGP

Wilde said:


> Chuck/GP; Today is the first chance I have been able to get back "online" - that is why no response. I also got my Pro-Newsletter -TODAY - so you must have my contact information. It was given at the PRO meeting in Louisville & I said then I was willing to help in any way. However, YOU chose to POST here rather than send out the Newsletter first. If that would of gone out first, before posting here - none of this would of come out. But you chose to go in reverse. I will forward you all my contact information, again. GP; You need to check the % on the Pay Out because it is not 80 to 35. It was never stated that they were going to increase the % but the Payout. Payout is gauranteed and % is off of participation.
> HERE is all of my contact information so NO one can say it is not available.
> 
> Thank You for the newsletter - I looks very Good.
> Dee Wilde
> 208-436-0141 Office
> 208-241-5293 Cell
> 208-436-9643 FAX
> [email protected]



Dee

In the WAF the payout % was differrent for almost every class. There was one class that was paying out 125%…Yeah thats more then they paid in. By making the payout % at least close accross the board we can start to see where the real numbers are. At this point (Until outside dollars come anyway) if the seniors,women and even Male pro want more $$$$ we will have to start getting MORE shooters.


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## Wilde

Greg; WAF has worked really hard to increase participation at their tournament and it shows. Our sport -Tournament Archery - as a whole is not growing - 2008 we had 211 Male Championship - your division- and it is going the wrong way 161 this year, down 24%. The increase has been in the other divisioins. Easton - Mathews - NAA & NFAA have dedicated so much to our youth programs to help our sport grow, & I am proud of them for that.

You are correct if they make a set % for the base of payment. But that has not been the case with the WAF and nowhere in Chucks post was it mentioned. If the statement or post said they were gong to increase their % then none of this would of even been brought up. Your division is working so hard at taking the next step to being able to make a real living shooting archery - And I would be so proud to see that happen. I am not down on anyone - I have based my questions on what has been posted - Your or Chucks. I don't know who got the 125% - more power to them. - did their division increase? I will support you, Chuck, NFAA & NAA any way I can to help our sport grow and flourish.


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## bigGP

Wilde said:


> Greg; WAF has worked really hard to increase participation at their tournament and it shows. Our sport -Tournament Archery - as a whole is not growing - 2008 we had 211 Male Championship - your division- and it is going the wrong way 161 this year, down 24%. The increase has been in the other divisioins. Easton - Mathews - NAA & NFAA have dedicated so much to our youth programs to help our sport grow, & I am proud of them for that.
> 
> You are correct if they make a set % for the base of payment. But that has not been the case with the WAF and nowhere in Chucks post was it mentioned. If the statement or post said they were gong to increase their % then none of this would of even been brought up. Your division is working so hard at taking the next step to being able to make a real living shooting archery - And I would be so proud to see that happen. I am not down on anyone - I have based my questions on what has been posted - Your or Chucks. I don't know who got the 125% - more power to them. - did their division increase? I will support you, Chuck, NFAA & NAA any way I can to help our sport grow and flourish.


I agree Dee that the youth are the future of our sport but right now it looks like most of them either want to sit and play a video game or watch/Play a sport where the chance of ripping off a testicle or snapping an arm off while jumping a motorcycle or skateboard 100 feet in the air is possible any minute? Nothing against X-Games and alike I m just saying we are not appealing to our own children let alone the masses. For whats its worth the NASP and other programs are NOT seeing the transition to hunting and tournament archery they where hoping for. Still a great thing but we need to figure out how to KEEP the ball rolling.

Quote from Chucks post-

Each of the classes that are seeing an increase is simply to bring up the percentage of the the payout pot to a more equal ratio. The classes with the largest increase were classes that had the least payouts by percentage. The men and seniors were already around 80% the others went as low as 35% payback. It was simply to strike an equal balance across the field.

It was a long post so i understand how it could have been lost in the shuffle. It will take ALL of us working together, Giving and taking WITH the org's to get where we all want our sport to be.


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## FV Chuck

Dee-

As noted in the personal e-mails we swapped, I did not get any contact info from any of the former chairs. Louisville was under someone elses control. Yankton you had to go before the end of the meeting and I didn't get your info before you left. 
You got the newsletter today because I shot a note to Reo to get your info...
This isn't a hide it from Dee kind of thing. It's not personal.
Trust when I say I want to keep EVERYONE in the loop, and it's critical we do so.

The post I placed here was meant to be "generally" informative. It's not a private or secure place to be discussing specific details or long dissertations...now that I have your info, you'll be in the loop. 

The delay on the newsletter was me waiting to get the final blessing to send. I really wanted HQ to see it first. It took a couple more days than anticipated. I'm sure we wont endure that kind of thing again... much easier as we go forward and make progress.

Thanks again Dee for your support and your passion... it's not lost on me. I promise.

Chuck




Wilde said:


> Chuck/GP; Today is the first chance I have been able to get back "online" - that is why no response. I also got my Pro-Newsletter -TODAY - so you must have my contact information. It was given at the PRO meeting in Louisville & I said then I was willing to help in any way. However, YOU chose to POST here rather than send out the Newsletter first. If that would of gone out first, before posting here - none of this would of come out. But you chose to go in reverse. I will forward you all my contact information, again. GP; You need to check the % on the Pay Out because it is not 80 to 35. It was never stated that they were going to increase the % but the Payout. Payout is gauranteed and % is off of participation.
> HERE is all of my contact information so NO one can say it is not available.
> 
> Thank You for the newsletter - I looks very Good.
> Dee Wilde
> 208-436-0141 Office
> 208-241-5293 Cell
> 208-436-9643 FAX
> [email protected]


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## Wilde

Chuck/Greg; THANK YOU - both for all your tireless and unrecognized efforts. 

Thanks
Dee Wilde


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## target guy

Chuck, I am going to put my $.02 here. I think if we want to grow the Championship part of Vegas it is up to us to make that happen. BY FAR the largest class is the Free style Flights, the question I have is why is that the largest, and the answer is easy. The payout is much different, sort of a crap shoot if you will. If you are not the number one shooter in that class your odds of winning and taking home some cash are still there.

So what do we do to make the Championship class better at Vegas, maybe pay down X places and the flight everyone else. This still keeps the “Champions” but it also allows for some others to take home a little pocket change. 

I toss this idea out as a what if, not as anything I truly believe in but maybe it is time for that change. The society we are in now EVERYONE is a winner, and if they can’t win they don’t play. Should there be some sort of an appearance fee for all the pros? I don’t think so. Should everyone that shoots get money back, NO, that takes away from what being a PRO is all about.


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## bigGP

Wilde said:


> Chuck/Greg; THANK YOU - both for all your tireless and unrecognized efforts.
> 
> Thanks
> Dee Wilde


Chuck has been doing a great job!!!! I dont do anything. If we can all come together and start putting a better public foot forward and keep out internal disagreements internal i truly believe we can start to make some progress. 

Dee, With your wealth of knoweldge it will be critical to continue to get your input.


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## RMBX10

My $.02 from the perspective of a former "elite" youth (Jr. USAT, USAT in the mid 90's) and briefly a member of the pro division. The problem with the growth of archery isn't a lack of youth archers. I haven't looked at the numbers but I would hazard guess that there were just as many youth archers 15-20 years ago as there are now. The big drop-off in participation comes when those former youth archers become young adults in their mid 20's and they're no longer being supported by mom and dad. The cost (in dollars and vacation time) of participation even in the amateur divisions is prohibitive for young adults who do not have a realistic chance of covering their expenses in contingency or prize money. 

There are two possible solutions to this problem: one, lower the cost of participation at the adult amateur level (I realize this may cause an increase in pro entry fees, but hey part of being a self-employed professional in any field is incurring operating costs) to keep more of those archers in the 19-29 set active in the sport of tournament archery. Two, create a true division between amateurs and professionals archery makes it too easy for people to jump between statuses (I do realize that the NFAA makes pros sit out a year before going back to amateur status). Much like golf has a stand-alone "amateur" national championship that is only open to amateurs, archery should as well. Yes, I realize you can enter the amateur division at the NFAA events, but when all of the attention is on the pro shoot-off is there really any significant recognition of amateurs?

If you want more professionals in the sport, you need to keep the amateurs involved too. Not that all of those amateurs will necessarily become professionals, but there's a better chance of that happening when you have more people involved overall.


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## deadx

Pros, as Greg has said, unless we get a "product" to sell to non-endemic sponsors we won`t be seeing any real pro class money for our sport like the money golfers get for instance. Instead we will be arguing over robbing from one class to increase paybacks to another. We need to form a pro organization. That doesn`t mean we are kicking the NFAA or the ASA or the IBO to the curb.They are the orgs that gave us life. We keep remembering the old PAA and what happened to it. That was basically an argument over equipment used and John Slack`s adamant refusal to accept the use of releases and compound bows. I brought this up at Yankton and got shot down. Unless we have a Pro org to sell to non-endemic sponsors we will always be "discussing" and never "doing". If we have a Pro org to present to non-endemic sponsors the "money" problem will begin to go away and you will see the growth we all want in our sport. It has already been mentioned several times that a lot of non-participation is because of the cost of travel, fees, equipment, lodging. Do you think the PGA pros have this problem?


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## aussiearcher

A little off the main topic perhaps, but seeing how others have brought up the topic of the decline in numbers, I’m going to now climb to the top of my soapbox ...
(yes,BigGP, I have to, I’m one of the vertically challenged folk.) I whole heartedly agree, the lack of youth in our sport is a very serious issue. 

As mentioned above, NASP does indeed introduce an incredible amount of youth to archery, and we certainly miss a brilliant opportunity to showcase our sport. Yes, I do acknowledge the various programs that are out there like ASAP, but seriously, our retention of youth in this sport is deplorable. 
Maybe we PRO’s could become a “voice of the potential archers of the future” addressing some serious issues, issues we are aware of that are stifling our game….not just our division. 

I’ll throw this one out there and see what happens.
How many of you are aware that the largest division in archery in the world doesn't offer that division for the "little folk". Yes, that's right...BOWHUNTER FREESTYLE is not available for kids. 

Let’s take the average Joe or Jill who has shown an inkling to have go at archery… What’s the first step. It’s usually off to the local archery shop or club, to get a basic archery setup, which usually is a bow with set of pins and more often than not, a release aide. Now if we’re lucky, and if we’ve taken the time to nurture these young ones, we might get them to consider tournament shooting. And so it begins, off we go to the local shoots and they really get the bug and want more, more, and more. Well that might be ok at the locally level, but anything further up the ladder..at State (about 5 states do), Sectional and National levels….there is no division for these kids …except to change their equipment or shoot their Bowhunter set-up against kids competing using all the bells and whistles. With the demoralizing reality, who could really blame the kids for picking up a video game.

I can hear people saying, “What, you want to introduce more divisions, what about all those extra medals” I say to you…forget the $$$$$...and yes, the increase in number of medals, etc…Common sense says, if the numbers of participants are increased….then their entry fees will surely pay for the increase number of medals….if not….get more participants. 

What’s the answer…well from where I stand, we PRO’s should start becoming proactive on all fronts in archery…not just on issues that involve Pro’s…this is our sport and we need to stand up and make noises in an attempt to initiate change…become a voice within your local Association, your State Association, and have them instruct their delegates to present a motion to address this glaring flaw…

*“Give them a game to play on a level field and they will stay.*


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## cshive

I think the drop off from our youth is the transition phase after high school. The nasp type programs are great and I'm glad programs as such exists but we also need to be doing all we can to increase the college archery programs. This is where you will transition your nasp shooter to tournament archers. Also, speaking of having a level between open pro and amateurs, I feel organizations should follow the 3d world and have a semi pro class. A LOT of amateur flights would move to this class. And on the separation of pro/ams, this is a situation that should have never happened in the first place. I understand steps are being taken to implement programs to promote interaction between the two and I applaud such efforts. I think the main drag down in our sport is the simple fact that everyone across the board states they want the sport to do this or that or move in this direction but only a handful get out and do anything. People must realize, just because you don't have a title doesn't mean promoting can't take place. It leaves me speachless of the number of people who don't even know about tournament archery much less even what a indoor target is or how to score it. EDUCATE the general public and the sport will grow. Everyone involved in tournament archery has their purpose and duties. Until each individual takes on that responsibility instead of waiting for the ones with a "title" to do everything our sport won't grow.


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## aussiearcher

Had an interesting lunch break at the mathews show...spent time talking to Ken Watkins of the IBO and he informed me that the IBO has done exactly what I have been going on about...all the youth divisions now have bowhunter classes...freestyle and limited...now we just have to convince the others ;.)


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## Daniel Boone

I do not agree that public should not see and try to understand what and why NFAA does what they do.

It really hard for me to understand increased fees in classes that draw so little shooters. Dont punish a class because its so popular.
If it working support and it will continue to grow.

Just curious about the extra for being a registered pro in Seniors. What is this cost?

I do feel DeadX is correct on Pro association but have heard pros and cons on it from those who were members years ago.

OSAA state assc here in Oklahoma is dieing. Really bothers me to see this. NFAA really got to find a way to encourage youth more.
NASP program here in are schools has done more to help NFAA than they will ever imigine. Being the contact for OSAA websight I get so many parents asking where they can get envolved in leagues/compititions away from there school archery programs.
DB


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## FV Chuck

aussiearcher said:


> Had an interesting lunch break at the mathews show...spent time talking to Ken Watkins of the IBO and he informed me that the IBO has done exactly what I have been going on about...all the youth divisions now have bowhunter classes...freestyle and limited...now we just have to convince the others ;.)



Good Ideas !... Probably the best place to start with adding classes Randal is with your state Directors

Chuck


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## WDMJR3DBOWGUY

aussiearcher said:


> Had an interesting lunch break at the mathews show...spent time talking to Ken Watkins of the IBO and he informed me that the IBO has done exactly what I have been going on about...all the youth divisions now have bowhunter classes...freestyle and limited...now we just have to convince the others ;.)


ASA has also added pin/bowhunter classes for the youth and young adults, along with the already exsistent open classes for them.


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## fast706

Michigan Archers Association has added youth Bowhunter divisions all acrossed the board for the 2012 season.

Your president

TRAVIS JOHNSON


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## SteveID

Interesting discussion. Hard for me to formulate an opinion of my own. Where I come from, amateurs compete for a trophy and the title. Pros compete for the bucks. 

I don't think WAF would happen if the Joes didn't have a shot at winning money in the flights. But man, I feel bad for the pros who shoot 899-898 and go home empty handed. 

I shot in a tournament this weekend. Championship winner got $90 and that was the only place paid out for our class. Flights paid out three places, with the winner receiving $110. Needless to say, I left scratching my head as to why I paid $50 to to shoot Championship, rather than $35 to shoot flights. For the record, I'm still scratching my head on that one.


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## gcab

SteveID said:


> Interesting discussion. Hard for me to formulate an opinion of my own. Where I come from, amateurs compete for a trophy and the title. Pros compete for the bucks.
> 
> I don't think WAF would happen if the Joes didn't have a shot at winning money in the flights. But man, I feel bad for the pros who shoot 899-898 and go home empty handed.
> 
> I shot in a tournament this weekend. Championship winner got $90 and that was the only place paid out for our class. Flights paid out three places, with the winner receiving $110. Needless to say, I left scratching my head as to why I paid $50 to to shoot Championship, rather than $35 to shoot flights. For the record, I'm still scratching my head on that one.


Just curious, what was the amount paid into your Championship class and how many people registered, and then the same for the flights? I would guess, just my guess, that their couldn't have been more than 3 in the Championship class, compared to maybe 10-15 for the flights? Those numbers may be low which would mean the host club kept more money, but why would the championship get paid more based on fees paid my the shooters in the flights?


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## SteveID

gcab said:


> Just curious, what was the amount paid into your Championship class and how many people registered, and then the same for the flights? I would guess, just my guess, that their couldn't have been more than 3 in the Championship class, compared to maybe 10-15 for the flights? Those numbers may be low which would mean the host club kept more money, but why would the championship get paid more based on fees paid my the shooters in the flights?


You are exactly right, and you'll notice that I said I was scratching my head afterwards wondering why I didn't just shoot flights. I think there are probably a good number of guys at Vegas who could compete in the championship class, but they know that an 898 won't get them anything there. That 898 puts them in the money in the flights.


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## field14

SteveID said:


> Interesting discussion. Hard for me to formulate an opinion of my own. Where I come from, amateurs compete for a trophy and the title. Pros compete for the bucks.
> 
> I don't think WAF would happen if the Joes didn't have a shot at winning money in the flights. But man, I feel bad for the pros who shoot 899-898 and go home empty handed.
> 
> 
> 
> I shot in a tournament this weekend. Championship winner got $90 and that was the only place paid out for our class. Flights paid out three places, with the winner receiving $110. Needless to say, I left scratching my head as to why I paid $50 to to shoot Championship, rather than $35 to shoot flights. For the record, I'm still scratching my head on that one.


With the exception of the VEGAS shoot...which has always paid money to the flights....what you saw at your local tournament is exactly WHY, if you want to shoot for MONEY...you ante up and PAY THE FEE to shoot for MONEY...otherwise, shoot for trophies. IMHO, the biggest mistake we've ever made is to allow the "amateur" divisions too shoot for MONEY.
Once again, you shoot for money, you shoot CHAMPIONSHIP or PRO...if you don't ante up, then trophies/awards only, my friends! The money has to come from somewhere and to have more money, you need to have sponsorship, be it from manufacturers and vendors of archery equipment, OR, pound the bricks and get that support from local vendors and manufacturers, bars, hotels, gas stations, car dealerships, hardware stores, banks, restaurants, dentists, doctors, lawyers, real estate brokers...you get the message!

At the Presley's shoot the first place person won the custom bow case AND $1,374.87 and we paid down 18 places in the Men's CHAMPIONSHIP division. That 18th place person go $133.96. The total payout for the event....and we only had 94 CHAMPIONSHIP shooters registered overall, was $11835.00 THAT would NOT be happening at all if we started letting amateurs shoot for MONEY. If we were to start paying MONEY to the amateurs, that Championship Purse would be melted down to a paltry fare. It has to come from somewhere to payout AMATEURS the money. Can't have both, or both will suffer in the long run.

Of course, not all of the CHAMPIONSHIP purse comes from the registration fees for the shooters in the Championship Division either. The bigger part of it comes from the contributions of local vendors, archery manufacturers and vendors, and local supporters of the event. We have absolutely NO intentions of paying out money to the Amateur (trophy) Division, nor do we intend upon changing how those monies are distributed in the CHAMPIONSHIP division... Want to shoot for MONEY...then ante up the $80. Want to shoot for awards...then pay your $35, but don't expect to shoot for any money, period. 
Oh, I might also add that not a single dime of the registration fees paid by the AMATEURS (Trophy Division) goes to the Money Purse. However, of the $80 registration fee for the Championship Division, $55 goes to the particular Class of of that particular shooter (and NOT to any other one, either), while $25 goes to the "general fund" for the running of the tournament to pay for the targets, and all that other "stuff." NO! We would not raise the entry fee for the "Trophy Division" and let them shoot for money; ain't happenin'. The "contributed" part of the purse is distributed by determining the % of registered shooters in each of the classes in the Championship Division. If, for example, the Lady's Championship Freestyle should have 60% of the total of all Championship Division registrants, then 60% of the contributed purse goes to the Lady's Championship Freestyle Division plus ALL of the $55 registration fee for each and every lady in said Division. We will NOT rob Peter to pay Paul just so we can give out more money to the Men's or Seniors....if they want a bigger slice of the pie, then they need to have a bigger % of the overall participation.

field14 (Tom D.)


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## FV Chuck

With no intent of needling when unnecessary... but with the full intention of clarifying a point.

Tom, (and all other tourny hosts on the planet)... if you dont require a Pro Card to shoot for Champ money, then you are actually letting Amateurs shoot for money. The only difference on the line is entry fee. That's it. Calling it a Championship division and raising the entry fee does not make it a Pro shoot.

Semantics?... maybe. Just a casual observation.

... you guys going to file for Pro Sanction next season?... we have a great offer from the NFAA on that. 

CHuck


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## mightybaron

good call on that one Chuck


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## deadx

FV Chuck said:


> With no intent of needling when unnecessary... but with the full intention of clarifying a point.
> 
> Tom, (and all other tourny hosts on the planet)... *if you dont require a Pro Card to shoot for Champ money, then you are actually letting Amateurs shoot for money.* The only difference on the line is entry fee. That's it. Calling it a Championship division and raising the entry fee does not make it a Pro shoot.
> 
> Semantics?... maybe. Just a casual observation.
> 
> ... you guys going to file for Pro Sanction next season?... we have a great offer from the NFAA on that.
> 
> CHuck


Chuck, no pro card is needed to shoot the championship division at the Vegas Shoot so the NFAA is letting amateurs shoot in that tournament so what is your point? The NFAA is offering $2,500 to the winner of the Senior Championship Division this year at vegas if he is a NFAA pro but that amount could easily be $50,000 or more if he is a pro member of a national or world org with the resulting greater sponsorship impact. The Presley shoot is not an NFAA sanctioned shoot so it pays better than the NFAA would in the money division, I think that is clear. The Presley shoot is just an example of what kind of money would be generated by having a pro org behind any shoot. The rep(in this case Tom Dorigatti), searched out sponsors and got a better pay down for places after 3 rd place than the NFAA does for the Vegas shoot. Imagine what he could have asked for it it was a pro organization shoot with real card carrying pros in attendance. No semantics here, just the facts. The NFAA is doing okay with their limited funds available at the Vegas shoot. Just imagine if the championship divisions were really card carrying pro divisions and non-endemic sponsorship money was involved. The sky would be the limit. The amateurs wouldn`t have to complain that their money was being taken from them to give to the pros and the pros could probably begin to make a living shooting their bows. I don`t get the opposition to having a pro org. It looks to me like there is another hidden agenda to keep professional archery from growing by keeping it strictly under the thumb of the NFAA. There, I said it and that is what I think. I am pretty sure I am not alone in that thought.


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## field14

Chuck, just why do you think the tournament is named the Presley's Midwest OPEN Archery tournament.
Another difference that you fail to mention is "WHAT those non card carrying "pros" (championship shooters) stand to get for their $80! 18th place was $133.96, and I"m not sure, but I think that person doesn't carry an NFAA Pro Card; he might, but then again...many of the others in the top 18 probably aren't card carrying pros either. They do it because they stand a chance of doubling their money or more and get on the line with the best of the best, regardless of a "card" or not.
Tell you what, the tournament FILLS UP every single year and then some, and if we didn't allow non-card carrying PROS to shoot the tournament, there would only be a handful of "pros" show up...and the payout would be paltry! As it stands, the Championship Division is just slightly less in attendance than the Trophy Division, so a 50-50 split between "Trophy" and "Championship" total registrants is just fine. 
We have no intent of closing this shoot and making The Championship Division a Card Carrying PRO only Division event, nor do we intend upon making it a TROPHY ONLY event either. We need the balance we have. 
As stated earlier, however, we do NOT "rob" one Championship Class' up and comings to raise the purse for another class, % participation rules as far as the contributed purse goes.
We do NOT let those that register in the "Trophy Division" shoot for money awards. Want to shoot CHAMPIONSHIP? Then up your ante. Paying down the 18 places...is well defined by the NFAA Payout listing based upon the number of shooters registered in each CHAMPIONSHIP CLASS, by PERCENTAGE...and we will not inflate first place beyond that. The "championship shooters" like the deeper payout and our Tournament Committee has no intentions of "flighting" the Championship Division. The deeper payout COULD be done at Vegas too, should the WAF choose to do so; they just don't is all. Money will only go so far. 

It is NOT right for a person with say a 684 to take home $500 when a person with a 686 doesn't get a dime.
People are obviously willing to ANTE UP the $80 registration fee to shoot CHAMPIONSHIP division at this event, just as many, many, many NON-CARD CARRYING shooters do at Vegas, and always have.
I'm NOT opposed to A Professional Association, been there and done that in the PAA days of yester-year. Too bad that the head honcho of the old PAA back then was so anti-release and anti-release/compound that he didn't see the forest for the trees, because the PAA did have a LOT of respect for quite some time; at least up until then, that is.
Yes, there "could" be a lot of money in the PRO division, but it isn't up to ONLY the "host" of the event (be it Presley's, NFAA, WAF, IBO, ASA or whatever) to pound the bricks and do ALL the work. A lot of this needs to fall upon the members of said PRO Division...and they need to get out and pound the bricks too; at least in my opinion, they should be. For the Presley's shoot, you'd be surprised as who those people are that DO get out an pound the bricks...it is NOT all "tommy d's" doing by any stretch of the imagination; it is NOT all Presley's Outdoors' doing either. Many of the shooters themselves go out and find "sponsors" or contributors, too!

field14 (Tom D.)


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## bigGP

deadx said:


> Chuck, no pro card is needed to shoot the championship division at the Vegas Shoot so the NFAA is letting amateurs shoot in that tournament so what is your point? The NFAA is offering $2,500 to the winner of the Senior Championship Division this year at vegas if he is a NFAA pro but that amount could easily be $50,000 or more if he is a pro member of a national or world org with the resulting greater sponsorship impact. The Presley shoot is not an NFAA sanctioned shoot so it pays better than the NFAA would in the money division, I think that is clear. The Presley shoot is just an example of what kind of money would be generated by having a pro org behind any shoot. The rep(in this case Tom Dorigatti), searched out sponsors and got a better pay down for places after 3 rd place than the NFAA does for the Vegas shoot. Imagine what he could have asked for it it was a pro organization shoot with real card carrying pros in attendance. No semantics here, just the facts. The NFAA is doing okay with their limited funds available at the Vegas shoot. Just imagine if the championship divisions were really card carrying pro divisions and non-endemic sponsorship money was involved. The sky would be the limit. The amateurs wouldn`t have to complain that their money was being taken from them to give to the pros and the pros could probably begin to make a living shooting their bows. I don`t get the opposition to having a pro org. It looks to me like there is another hidden agenda to keep professional archery from growing by keeping it strictly under the thumb of the NFAA. There, I said it and that is what I think. I am pretty sure I am not alone in that thought.


With all due respect, The winner of the Pressley's shoot has been getting paid lass and less every year. I have heard from no less then 5 people that aren't going to go back because of that fact. Paying down 18 places was.................Their decision i guess but taking from the top to pay down to guys that shouldn't have cut a check is.........well............ Obama would be so proud!

On the Vegas non Pro card issue.............. Stay tuned bro, not sure how much longer that argument is going to hold water.

Non endemic sponsorship is a joke at this point. Shoots like Pressley's are the poster child for why non endemics will NEVER get involved on the national level. Local car dealers and attorneys is great for a LOCAL shoot. A non sanctioned shoot competing and under mining every Org (No matter how good or bad) while not being sanctioned??? How well would that go over in ANY other Pro sport? Yeah i could really see Pro Bull riders,golfers,basketball,footabll,Nascar and well every sport participating in a non sanctioned event and seeing how well that would fly (NBA players had to get permission to go play overseas during strike..hmmm why do you think that is)........... And there in lies the difference. In Archery everybody WANTS it, but the Pro's aren't willing to DO it. If the Pro's said we aren't going to shoot a NON sanctioned event guess what? any event that wanted to draw Pro archers would get sanctioned...... and THAT would be the start to getting the Pro division going in the right direction. Steve is absolutely right in that a Pro org would help and is going to happen someday................ but not with the divisive Pro archer mentality and shoots that facilitate and accommodate the continued separation.


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## field14

bigGP said:


> With all due respect, The winner of the Pressley's shoot has been getting paid lass and less every year. I have heard from no less then 5 people that aren't going to go back because of that fact. Paying down 18 places was.................Their decision i guess but taking from the top to pay down to guys that shouldn't have cut a check is.........well............ Obama would be so proud!
> 
> On the Vegas non Pro card issue.............. Stay tuned bro, not sure how much longer that argument is going to hold water.
> 
> Non endemic sponsorship is a joke at this point. Shoots like Pressley's are the poster child for why non endemics will NEVER get involved on the national level. Local car dealers and attorneys is great for a LOCAL shoot. A non sanctioned shoot competing and under mining every Org (No matter how good or bad) while not being sanctioned??? How well would that go over in ANY other Pro sport? Yeah i could really see Pro Bull riders,golfers,basketball,footabll,Nascar and well every sport participating in a non sanctioned event and seeing how well that would fly (NBA players had to get permission to go play overseas during strike..hmmm why do you think that is)........... And there in lies the difference. In Archery everybody WANTS it, but the Pro's aren't willing to DO it. If the Pro's said we aren't going to shoot a NON sanctioned event guess what? any event that wanted to draw Pro archers would get sanctioned...... and THAT would be the start to getting the Pro division going in the right direction. Steve is absolutely right in that a Pro org would help and is going to happen someday................ but not with the divisive Pro archer mentality and shoots that facilitate and accommodate the continued separation.


Big GP....Your data is NOT correct as far as DOWN every year! Here are the REAL numbers for the Men's Championship Freestyle First Place: You also have to realize that the Men's CHampionship Freestyle Purse's "contributions" portion of the purse WILL vary based upon THEIR % of the total participation in the event from THEIR division...If the 5 of Ladies goes up, then OBVIOUSLY, the % of the men is DOWN...so DOWN goes their piece of the Contributed Purse Pie. MY numbers come from: http://www.presleysoutdoors.com/?page_id=39 and NOT hearsay from "somebody you talked to."
2007: $1,258.97
2008: 1,765.26
2009: $1466.94
2010: $1501.43
2011: $1374. 87 PLUS for every year, add in a $300 Custom Bowcase to that, too. The total payout bounces around. The key element here is the ECONOMY!!
The Championship Division was danged LUCKY to get that much this year what with everything economically going into the toilet. We were in the biggest recession in history in 2011, and as a result, it is natural that the purse would be down.
YOU seem to think along with 4 or 5 you supposedly have talked to, that the money grown on trees and Presley's just goes out and picks it! Sounds as if those 4 or 5 and YOU don't appreciate it at all!
The 2010 it was UP over the 2009, and it has "hovered" right around 11,000 to just over 12,000 TOTAL payout each year. Same with the registered competitors in the Championship Division...it runs from around 88 to 94 every year.
We use the NFAA's STANDARD for payout based upon the number of competitors in each of the Championship Classes. So, for 52-54 shooters in the Men's Championship Freestyle Class...it says to pay 18 places, and that is what is done! So according to YOU the NFAA standard for payouts is WRONG too? This prevents the "taking away from the winner" and giving to the others...it is STANDARD PAYOUT, and if we fiddle with this, the it is "doctoring the books", IMHO and we aren't going there and have to justify how we come up with the numbers! It is in PRINT of how it is done, so no quibbling, no "wagging it" no "flying by the seat of our pants."
You know, and this might torque some people off...but....for only a TOTAL of 94 "registered" Championship Shooters in the entire event, a payout of $11,835 is quite HIGH...why don't you go to the UTAH OPEN...where first place pays just over $600 and complain!
YOU and some of the people you claim are saying the payout isn't big enough are looking a gift horse in the mouth, BigGP. Frankly, and we know this to be true...if those 4 or 5 don't show up, there will likely be 5 or 6 others trying to get in to take their places; and those others still coming will move up the ladder.
The shoot IS successful, the deeper payout works, the TROPHY shooters are NOT giving ANY of their money to the Chamionship Division, so why should we change a good thing that apparently PLEASES the vast majority of those in attendance year after year after year just cuz YOU (and a few others) think that using the STANDARD NFAA PAYOUT LISTING based upon number of competitors shouldn't be used?

Who makes YOU got GOD of who deserves a check and who doesn't? MOST of those competing in the Presley's event LIKE the deeper payout and the very first year, we took a poll of many persons and THAT is WHAT THEY WANTED...a deeper payout. 
The NFAA guide to PAYOUTS is NOT being used at Vegas...if it was, then obviously there would be more people cashing checks.
And YES...your attitude DOES torque me off.

Sorry, GP, but the joes pay the bills. Your accusatory nature concerning how we arrive at the number of places paid is out of line, and also putting down the 18th place or the 11th place or whomever's right to a "check" is out of line as well. Walk up to the 8th place person and tell him he doesn't deserve that check, or if YOU were the recipient, I'm sure you would just give it back or hand it over to the winner, now wouldn't you?

field14 (Tom D.)


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## FV Chuck

My point was to say having a higher entry fee for a bigger money class does not make it a Pro Shoot. Pro cards and sanctioning make it a Pro shoot. Personally I'd like to see him (and several other's) sanction their shoots to add credibility, participation, pro points, and advertising opportunities so they can honestly have Pro am's etc... it's a work in progress and I'm just trying to make it better from the Pro shooter standpoint. It's not a knock on his event at all

As Greg stated... stay tuned on Vegas... this might be a moot point.... and keep in mind Vegas is a WAF event, not technically and NFAA event. It also by any measure you choose is the largest indoor shoot in the US. It has it's success stories and it's shortcomings, but ultimately I feel they have a desire to make it all it can be and more than what it is now.

I have not seen the payout/entry chart for Tom's shoot. Perhaps it could be posted here and we can really honestly crunch numbers, entry fees vs pay out. 
I have not attended a shoot of his so it's a little hard for me to have specifics that are not second hand at this point. I would be keenly interested to see if his payouts are better than the NFAA's or not. 

Having a Pro org was tried once before and for any one a truckload of reasons it failed. Right now I don't feel it's viable unless you happen to have 100K laying around that your not using. This seed $ would fund pots, advertising, TV coverage etc. My current business model for the Pros is to continue to build a solid foundation, define our demographic, and solicit it to outside or non endemic sponsors. It simply takes time to make that happen and I encourage you to remember it a "big picture" theme. There are several things that need to be fixed or adjusted, trust me when I say it's something I work on every single day.


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## bigGP

field14 said:


> Big GP....Your data is NOT correct! This year's TOTAL PAYOUT was just shy of $900 less than last year's...and take a look at the BIGGEST factor in that...The economy and what happened in 2011! The Championship Division was danged LUCKY to get that much this year what with everything economically going into the toilet. YOU seem to think along with 4 or 5 you supposedly have talked to, that the money grown on trees and Presley's just goes out and picks it! Sounds as if those 4 or 5 and YOU don't appreciate it at all!
> The 2010 it was UP over the 2009, and it has "hovered" right around 11,000 to just over 12,000 TOTAL payout each year. Same with the registered competitors in the Championship Division...it runs from around 88 to 94 every year.
> We use the NFAA's STANDARD for payout based upon the number of competitors in each of the Championship Classes. So, for 52-54 shooters in the Men's Championship Freestyle Class...it says to pay 18 places, and that is what is done! So according to YOU the NFAA standard for payouts is WRONG too?
> You know, and this might torque some people off...but....for only a TOTAL of 94 "registered" Championship Shooters in the entire event, a payout of $11,835 is quite HIGH...why don't you go to the UTAH OPEN...where first place pays just over $600 and complain!
> YOU and some of the people you claim are saying the payout isn't big enough are looking a gift horse in the mouth, BigGP. Frankly, and we know this to be true...if those 4 or 5 don't show up, there will likely be 5 or 6 others trying to get in to take their places; and those others still coming will move up the ladder.
> The shoot IS successful, the deeper payout works, the TROPHY shooters are NOT giving ANY of their money to the Chamionship Division, so why should we change a good thing that apparently PLEASES the vast majority of those in attendance year after year after year just cuz YOU (and a few others) think that using the STANDARD NFAA PAYOUT LISTING based upon number of competitors shouldn't be used?
> 
> Who makes YOU got GOD of who deserves a check and who doesn't? MOST of those competing in the Presley's event LIKE the deeper payout and the very first year, we took a poll of many persons and THAT is WHAT THEY WANTED...a deeper payout.
> The NFAA guide to PAYOUTS is NOT being used at Vegas...if it was, then obviously there would be more people cashing checks.
> And YES...your attitude DOES torque me off.
> 
> Sorry, GP, but the joes pay the bills.
> 
> field14 (Tom D.)


LMAO as usual...... anyway. If the registration in the Championship class is the same then why does the winner keep getting less and less money every year? (Let me guess.... never mind) You keep focusing on the total (And that amount is wonderful). The point of the story you aren't paying attention to is the "redistribution of the wealth"......Are you seriously saying the "dressing down" you received this year from numerous competitor's went un heard? That news spread like wild fire from coast to coast and over shadowed what other wise seemed to be a great event? Not that it matters but that's all we heard out here anyway.... 

So lets do some quick math.......... How much did the MALE championship class pay out? What % of that did the WINNER get? Does that % match what the NFAA......wait a stitch? Why are you following NFAA guidelines when you use your lack of sanctioning or affiliation with said org as a marketing angle? What insurance did you use to cover that event again? Just curious 

What does the Utah open have to do with anything? You don't see them on here saying how much better there shoot is than every other shoot and how the rest of the archery world needs to pay attention do you? I sure don't but i am not on here near as much as you so it could have slipped past me.

We were NOT talking about the Joe's so why even bring them up??? Oh yeah thats right.....misdirection at its best........... You have been learning from Obama


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## deadx

Man oh man!!!! I we could just get GP and Tom and Chuck to agree to work together we could maybe get a pro org up and going and then all this in-fighting would be over. We need a pro org separate from any tournament org to bring in non-endemic sponsorship money. I think it might even garner more money from the archery manufacturers who would be able to sponsor more money because the archery business is booming! The sport of golf grew when there was a professional way to make money as football grew as baseball grew as tennis grew as poker grew(for crying out loud!) as billiards grew as............get my drift? At present we only have a professional DIVISION in the NFAA org. That is why there is no growth in the sport. Other tournaments can`t approach potential sponsors with a pro org behind it BECAUSE THERE IS NO PRO ORG!!!!! What is so hard to understand about this fact? No TV coverage, no kids growing up wanting to be a pro archer, no growing NUMBERS of archers, no way to make a living shooting a bow, and a side note that irritates me to no end, the archery industry being driven by bow hunting research and development and NOT target archery research and development. Can you imagine if the target side of things was as big or BIGGER than the hunting side of the archery industry!!!PRO ORG!!!! NOW!!! or all we will have is arguments and name calling and nothing will change.


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## bigGP

deadx said:


> Man oh man!!!! I we could just get GP and Tom and Chuck to agree to work together we could maybe get a pro org up and going and then all this in-fighting would be over. We need a pro org separate from any tournament org to bring in non-endemic sponsorship money. I think it might even garner more money from the archery manufacturers who would be able to sponsor more money because the archery business is booming! The sport of golf grew when there was a professional way to make money as football grew as baseball grew as tennis grew as poker grew(for crying out loud!) as billiards grew as............get my drift? At present we only have a professional DIVISION in the NFAA org. That is why there is no growth in the sport. Other tournaments can`t approach potential sponsors with a pro org behind it BECAUSE THERE IS NO PRO ORG!!!!! What is so hard to understand about this fact? No TV coverage, no kids growing up wanting to be a pro archer, no growing NUMBERS of archers, no way to make a living shooting a bow, and a side note that irritates me to no end, the archery industry being driven by bow hunting research and development and NOT target archery research and development. Can you imagine if the target side of things was as big or BIGGER than the hunting side of the archery industry!!!PRO ORG!!!! NOW!!! or all we will have is arguments and name calling and nothing will change.



I agree Steve (On most points) but the one thing that precludes any of that is this...................... We have no REQUIREMENTS to be a Pro...therefore being a Pro means NOTHING! Its a phone call and a CC. We have brought this up before and people FREAK! Without a Q school or meeting a minimum requirement to even BE a pro we will go nowhere.


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## gcab

As an observer from the outside, I think the changes to the payouts are good thank Chuck or NFAA or whoever came up with them. As a non pro shooter, it gives incentive to try to do better and have a chance to earn something just for making the shootoff basically. I may be wrong, but I'm confused why there is so much arguement concerning the Presleys payouts. If I have read correctly over time, that shoot is run by Field14, who has just stated that non-pro card shooters won some money. But I know I have read post upon post upon post upon... of him stating that at no time should a amateur be paid any money, they should just get a medal or something. So why constantly have that arguement, but then host a tournament that you are paying amateurs? Again, I could be wrong, and not trying to create an argument, but since I am not a pro I am not privey(sp?) to most of the discussions, and rightfully so. BUt to me the issue with archery and endorsements and the pro council idea, is that there is so much two sided talk or wanting to change rules, but basically not have it applied to the person that wants them changed. IE.. no amateurs get paid money, but I will host a tournament in which they do. Or, you need to qualify to be a pro, coming from someone that has never won. I would think that if the discussions were more open for people to see what the bottom line idea is, what the plans are, and why, most of the arguements would be over and the sport would grow as intended. Just my opinion.

But to the original post, thanks for the changes to the payouts. Makes us wannabe's think we have a chance.


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## deadx

FV Chuck said:


> My point was to say having a higher entry fee for a bigger money class does not make it a Pro Shoot. Pro cards and sanctioning make it a Pro shoot. Personally I'd like to see him (and several other's) sanction their shoots to add credibility, participation, pro points, and advertising opportunities so they can honestly have Pro am's etc... it's a work in progress and I'm just trying to make it better from the Pro shooter standpoint. It's not a knock on his event at all
> 
> As Greg stated... stay tuned on Vegas... this might be a moot point.... and keep in mind Vegas is a WAF event, not technically and NFAA event. It also by any measure you choose is the largest indoor shoot in the US. It has it's success stories and it's shortcomings, but ultimately I feel they have a desire to make it all it can be and more than what it is now.
> 
> I have not seen the payout/entry chart for Tom's shoot. Perhaps it could be posted here and we can really honestly crunch numbers, entry fees vs pay out.
> I have not attended a shoot of his so it's a little hard for me to have specifics that are not second hand at this point. I would be keenly interested to see if his payouts are better than the NFAA's or not.
> 
> Having a Pro org was tried once before and for any one a truckload of reasons it failed. Right now I don't feel it's viable unless you happen to have 100K laying around that your not using. This seed $ would fund pots, advertising, TV coverage etc. My current business model for the Pros is to continue to build a solid foundation, define our demographic, and solicit it to outside or non endemic sponsors. It simply takes time to make that happen and I encourage you to remember it a "big picture" theme. There are several things that need to be fixed or adjusted, trust me when I say it's something I work on every single day.


Chuck we need a pro org so we can approach the folks that DO have money laying around. The big money we are talking about is only going to come with a pro org to sell to them. The NFAA has very popular venues(ok, except for oneLOL) and they run great tournaments but any tournament host needs a pro org to really generate championship money from potential sponsors and that usually come from TV and (internet nowadays) coverage so that the sponsors get a wider exposure for their advertising dollar.


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## field14

FV Chuck said:


> My point was to say having a higher entry fee for a bigger money class does not make it a Pro Shoot. Pro cards and sanctioning make it a Pro shoot. Personally I'd like to see him (and several other's) sanction their shoots to add credibility, participation, pro points, and advertising opportunities so they can honestly have Pro am's etc... it's a work in progress and I'm just trying to make it better from the Pro shooter standpoint. It's not a knock on his event at all
> 
> As Greg stated... stay tuned on Vegas... this might be a moot point.... and keep in mind Vegas is a WAF event, not technically and NFAA event. It also by any measure you choose is the largest indoor shoot in the US. It has it's success stories and it's shortcomings, but ultimately I feel they have a desire to make it all it can be and more than what it is now.
> 
> I have not seen the payout/entry chart for Tom's shoot. Perhaps it could be posted here and we can really honestly crunch numbers, entry fees vs pay out.
> I have not attended a shoot of his so it's a little hard for me to have specifics that are not second hand at this point. I would be keenly interested to see if his payouts are better than the NFAA's or not.
> 
> Having a Pro org was tried once before and for any one a truckload of reasons it failed. Right now I don't feel it's viable unless you happen to have 100K laying around that your not using. This seed $ would fund pots, advertising, TV coverage etc. My current business model for the Pros is to continue to build a solid foundation, define our demographic, and solicit it to outside or non endemic sponsors. It simply takes time to make that happen and I encourage you to remember it a "big picture" theme. There are several things that need to be fixed or adjusted, trust me when I say it's something I work on every single day.


Chuck, the NFAA standard Payout sheet based upon the number of participants is in the NFAA rule book; or it was...
11. Purse Distribution 
11.1 Shooter's Place Distribution % Table
Under neath that is 11.2 used to be: "The Pro Chairman, NFAA President, and NFAA Vice President shall determine the distribution of all outside prize money." Well, PRESLEY's determines it for the Presley's shoot and it IS by the % of total participation in each class in the Championship Division for the "contributed purse", plus ALL of the $55 that goes to the money purse from each registrant's entry fee goes ONLY to that person's registered shooting class.

So, once again for the umteenth time....if the Lady's Championship Freestyle have 60% of the total number of registered Championship shooters, then 60% of the CONTRIBUTED purse...goes to the LADY'S Championship Freestyle Class. So, if the total contributed purse is $10,000, in then above scenario...then $6,000 of the CONTRIBUTED purse goes to them PLUS $55 for each of those ladies registered in that class goes to that class and that class ONLY... so if you had 60 ladies in there for example: $6,000 contributed purse is THEIR share PLUS $55X60 from their registration fees....then....$6,000 CONTRIBUTED plus $3,300 from their registration fees = $9,300 available to the LADY's Championship Freestyle Class. so, we have 60 ladies...payout would be, per the chart 20 places down, with first place getting, 18.4% of the $9,300 or a check for 1st place of: $1711.20.
The NFAA has this chart, we USE it, and there is no "number crunching" or changing going on other than from this CHART and combining the CONTRIBUTED PURSE (by % participation) and the $55 for each shooter in that class that BELONGS TO THEM AND ONLY THEM as a class.
Works effectively, and with the exception of a "few" and BigGP, people are mostly happy with it. The ECONOMY really has more to do with our Contributed Purse than anything, so when the economy sucks, then the purse goes down; just as it will vary based upon whether the % participation in any one Shooting Class in the Championship Division goes up or down. We don't "take away" from the 1st place to pay down lower....the NFAA CHART does that!
Some folks just want to continue to take monies from other classes or come up with some new-fangled payout system that they contrive to inflate the 1st place winnings or whatever. No arguments by us using the STANDARD NFAA Prus Distribution Shooter's Place Distribution % Table.

As far as credibility? Tell those that place high in their shooting class that they don't have any credibility? Tell the persons in the Championship Men's Freestyle that ended up 6th and 7th place at this year's event THEY don't have any credibility; I dare you! Tell the person on the listing for the 2011 event that finished 13th he doesn't have "credibility"...I dare ya!
Well, this shoot is in its 5th year, and for the past 3 years, we have reached registration capacity by the 1st week of NOVEMBER. Apparently, people are happy with the way it is being conducted. We can't please everyone. We have room for 208 shooters, and don't intend upon moving it to a 'bigger venue'...We are after QUALITY of the shoot, and NOT how many shooters we can get. Our mix this year for registered shooters was at 45.2% in the Championship Division, and 54.8% in the Trophy Division and that mix is JUST FINE. Doesn't get any better than this, IMHO> 
The JOES pay the bills, and we have no intentions of ever turning this into a PRO ONLY event...it is the Presley's Midwest OPEN Archery Tournament...and it means just that OPEN to everyone. It is not an exclusive event for just PROS or just Joes, or just CUBS...it is OPEN. This shoot is for everyone to attend if they so desire...IF they can get registered before it fills up totally...and if they can be the "first to click to get the pick" when/if an opening does come up.

No NEED to post that information as to the registrants, payouts, amounts etc...that almost sounds as if you think something is out of line because the payout, for only 94 registrants is too high or something? As in, HOW on earth can a tournament with only 94 people in the Championship Division manage to come up with nearly $12,000 in total payout??? HARD WORK, that's how. DEDICATION, that is how? some of the CHAMPIONSHIP shooters pounding the bricks to try to help, that's how.
field14


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## bigGP

gcab said:


> As an observer from the outside, I think the changes to the payouts are good thank Chuck or NFAA or whoever came up with them. As a non pro shooter, it gives incentive to try to do better and have a chance to earn something just for making the shootoff basically. I may be wrong, but I'm confused why there is so much arguement concerning the Presleys payouts. If I have read correctly over time, that shoot is run by Field14, who has just stated that non-pro card shooters won some money. But I know I have read post upon post upon post upon... of him stating that at no time should a amateur be paid any money, they should just get a medal or something. So why constantly have that arguement, but then host a tournament that you are paying amateurs? Again, I could be wrong, and not trying to create an argument, but since I am not a pro I am not privey(sp?) to most of the discussions, and rightfully so. BUt to me the issue with archery and endorsements and the pro council idea, is that there is so much two sided talk or wanting to change rules, but basically not have it applied to the person that wants them changed. IE.. no amateurs get paid money, but I will host a tournament in which they do. Or, you need to qualify to be a pro, coming from someone that has never won. I would think that if the discussions were more open for people to see what the bottom line idea is, what the plans are, and why, most of the arguements would be over and the sport would grow as intended. Just my opinion.
> 
> But to the original post, thanks for the changes to the payouts. Makes us wannabe's think we have a chance.


ROTFLMAO Funny how it works that way doesn't it? NOW you understand a little better why we are where we are. No Qualifications to be a Pro and that kind of hypocrisy. Chuck is making alot of progress and I am confident we will get there.


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## deadx

bigGP said:


> I agree Steve (On most points) but the one thing that precludes any of that is this...................... We have no REQUIREMENTS to be a Pro...therefore being a Pro means NOTHING! Its a phone call and a CC. We have brought this up before and people FREAK! Without a Q school or meeting a minimum requirement to even BE a pro we will go nowhere.


OK Greg, point taken. In the PGA how does a wanna be pro golfer get considered as a pro? Does he have to shoot a certain score or does he just ante up the money for a pro card? I honestly don`t know since I don`t golf. We could form a archery pro org however with a committee of pros(NFAA, ASA pros will have to do for now) voted into a delegation to draft a pro constitution much like the delegates to the original Constitutional Convention of the United States. They argued for 11 years before they came up with the US Constitution. I don`t think it will take us that long to come up with a world professional archery organization that we can all live with. That is a start isn`t it. We present day pros know who we are. It shouldn`t be a problem for us. I think we are intelligent enough and educated enough to do this on our own without hiring some management group of people who don`t know archery like we do and what we are hoping to accomplish.


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## field14

bigGP said:


> ROTFLMAO Funny how it works that way doesn't it? NOW you understand a little better why we are where we are. No Qualifications to be a Pro and that kind of hypocrisy. Chuck is making alot of progress and I am confident we will get there.


I'm opposed to amateurs shooting for money when the do NOT ante up to pay the same fees as the PROS...you want to shoot for MONEY, then dang it...pay up your $80 just like the rest of the PROS...and come join the fun! BUT...you only ante up $35, then you are NOT going to take a single dime away from those that anted up $80 to shoot for the MONEY.
It is an OPEN event, and OPEN means just that...if you think you can not only talk the talk, but walk the walk, then it is OPEN for you to ANTE UP the $80 and shoot with the big boys...and try to win back your $80 and then some.
THAT is the distinction...PAY UP, or shut up, and don't expect a MONEY payout unless you ante up.
If we were to even dream of making the Presley's tournament a PRO ONLY event....we would NOT fill it up with 208 people, which is our capacity. It also, IMHO would be a slap in the face to the JOES that pay the bills and work just as hard to try to compete with their compatriots. It was NEVER the intent of the Presley's event to go ALL PRO, and likely never will be.
field14


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## bigGP

deadx said:


> OK Greg, point taken. In the PGA how does a wanna be pro golfer get considered as a pro? Does he have to shoot a certain score or does he just ante up the money for a pro card? I honestly don`t know since I don`t golf. We could form a archery pro org however with a committee of pros(NFAA, ASA pros will have to do for now) voted into a delegation to draft a pro constitution much like the delegates to the original Constitutional Convention of the United States. They argued for 11 years before they came up with the US Constitution. I don`t think it will take us that long to come up with a world professional archery organization that we can all live with. That is a start isn`t it. We present day pros know who we are. It shouldn`t be a problem for us. I think we are intelligent enough and educated enough to do this on our own without hiring some management group of people who don`t know archery like we do and what we are hoping to accomplish.


Steve, the way Golf does it is cost prohibitive for Archery but the idea is this......... If you shoot certain predetermined scores in one of the PRO sanctioned regional or national events THAT score would qualify you to apply for a Pro card. Obviously anyone that was already a Pro would be Grandfathered in but future Pro's would have to have shot a Qualifying score and have an existing Pro "Sponsor" their application. Once we do that then being a Pro at least means you are X good at what you do therefore starting the process of lending credibility to the name Pro archer.


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## field14

bigGP said:


> LMAO as usual...... anyway. If the registration in the Championship class is the same then why does the winner keep getting less and less money every year? (Let me guess.... never mind) You keep focusing on the total (And that amount is wonderful). The point of the story you aren't paying attention to is the "redistribution of the wealth"......Are you seriously saying the "dressing down" you received this year from numerous competitor's went un heard? That news spread like wild fire from coast to coast and over shadowed what other wise seemed to be a great event? Not that it matters but that's all we heard out here anyway....
> 
> So lets do some quick math.......... How much did the MALE championship class pay out? What % of that did the WINNER get? Does that % match what the NFAA......wait a stitch? Why are you following NFAA guidelines when you use your lack of sanctioning or affiliation with said org as a marketing angle? What insurance did you use to cover that event again? Just curious
> 
> What does the Utah open have to do with anything? You don't see them on here saying how much better there shoot is than every other shoot and how the rest of the archery world needs to pay attention do you? I sure don't but i am not on here near as much as you so it could have slipped past me.
> 
> We were NOT talking about the Joe's so why even bring them up??? Oh yeah thats right.....misdirection at its best........... You have been learning from Obama


Once again, GP you frikin' do NOT know how to read: Your numbers are WRONG...Here is the 1st place Men's Championship Check amounts since the tournament began in 2007....READ IT THIS TIME WILL YA! This part and more was posted earlier today.
Big GP....Your data is NOT correct as far as DOWN every year! Here are the REAL numbers for the Men's Championship Freestyle First Place: You also have to realize that the Men's CHampionship Freestyle Purse's "contributions" portion of the purse WILL vary based upon THEIR % of the total participation in the event from THEIR division...If the % of Ladies goes up9or the % of any of the others goes up in relation), then OBVIOUSLY, the % of the men is DOWN...so DOWN goes their piece of the Contributed Purse Pie. MY numbers come from: http://www.presleysoutdoors.com/?page_id=39 and NOT hearsay from "somebody you talked to."
2007: $1,258.97
2008: 1,765.26
2009: $1466.94
2010: $1501.43
2011: $1374. 87 PLUS for every year, add in a $300 Custom Bowcase to that, too. The total payout bounces around. The key element here is the ECONOMY!! The winner got the % based upon the NFAA Purse Distribution 11.1 Shooters Place Distribution % Table...just like I've posted TWICE now...but you REFUSE to read or you don't have the ability to comprehend. If "they" are complaining like they say they are over a change up or down of a couple of hundred bucks, then they are clueless just like you are. We do NOT have a "constant" to deal with every year...it is what it ends up to be, and by golly, Presley's and me do NOT have to explain any of this to anyone, especially YOU...who obviously are clueless.

Know what? You don't like it, then don't bother to come to the tournament...you won't be missed, and neither will those that choose to look the gift horse in the mouth either. The PROS will NEVER take over this event. It is the Presley's Midwest OPEN Archery tournament...and how we run it and how we pay out doesn't have to change very much; at least when it is based upon the feedback we get from people that actually PARTICIPATE as opposed to those that want to be eilitists and take over an event they know little to nothing about.
You are stepping way over a line here BigGP...and you wonder WHY many people dont' want to ante up to pay PRO DUES? Insurance is no concern of yours...PRESLEY'S Outdoors is not a "hole in the wall" archery shop in Bofunk, Egypt.
I personally received NO dressing down concerning the PAYOUTS, nor did any of the shooting staff...again YOUR information is totally off base. You seem to think that there is always a "Complaining session" going on" or something. I'm sure if these comments were "reverberating across the country like wildfire" we'd have heard about it and what those comments were/are....so I doubt your veracity in this regard.
You, like SOME others just want to look a gift horse in the mouth, and out of jealousy of something successful are doing what you think you can to UNDERMINE and to DESTROY a reputable event due to your own personal agenda, which I strongly feel is NOT in the best interests of archery, nor is it in the best intersests of the NFAA or any other archery organization.


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## deadx

bigGP said:


> Steve, the way Golf does it is cost prohibitive for Archery but the idea is this......... If you shoot certain predetermined scores in one of the PRO sanctioned regional or national events THAT score would qualify you to apply for a Pro card. Obviously anyone that was already a Pro would be Grandfathered in but future Pro's would have to have shot a Qualifying score and have an existing Pro "Sponsor" their application. Once we do that then being a Pro at least means you are X good at what you do therefore starting the process of lending credibility to the name Pro archer.


Why don`t we do this at the next pro meeting. WE can vote for delegates to a professional archery constitutional convention with a simple aye or nay hand vote and they will be the ones who hammer out the new constitution. Announce the intention before the next pro meeting so pros know to attend if they want to have a voice in the selection process. Make it known that we are forming a professional archery organization and all current NFAA-IFAA pros are invited, indeed encouraged, to attend. The Vegas shoot would be a good tournament to do this since the FITA World Indoor Championship as well as the Vegas shoot is taking place there and there will a large number of international archers there as well. After all, this is a world professional archery organization we are forming. Just do it and get the ball rolling. This is the age of the internet so communication problems are going to be less of an issue than they were in 1789. All delegates can present ideas in a specifically designated part of this forum with no other input from other archers allowed during the process. It works very well and what comes of this we all live by. Not very expensive Greg, I am thinking......


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## Ditch Pickle

Have any of you done the math there is more then enough
money to pay out if it dont be gome a money game 
do the math on how many show up and what the fee is
and then tell me the money isnt there
the cental mn open payed out $3500 had 20 shooters good food and drawing and raffels 
and did just fine and plans on paying out more this year and every year after
hope to see all you shooters after all thats just what we are shooters shooting with shooters


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## field14

BigGP.

You said, "What insurance did you use to cover that event again? Just curious "

Well, guess what....the STORE's archery range insurance makes the NFAA range insurance look like a puddle of toffee. Presley's Outdoors is NOT an archery club, and doesn't deal just with ARCHERY...their insurance is more than ample to cover your hostilities.
See, not every "tournament" has to bend over and bow to BigGP.....
field14 (Tom D.)


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## field14

Ditch Pickle said:


> Have any of you done the math there is more then enough
> money to pay out if it dont be gome a money game
> do the math on how many show up and what the fee is
> and then tell me the money isnt there
> the cental mn open payed out $3500 had 20 shooters good food and drawing and raffels
> and did just fine and plans on paying out more this year and every year after
> hope to see all you shooter and thats just what we are shooters shooting with shooters


They don't understand that by the PROS getting off their duffs and getting out an pounding the bricks to HELP generate more contributions that the purses can easily GROW. You can't stand there and tell me that LOUISVILLE isn't open to people going out and ASKING for "contributions" to the Money Purse of the NFAA Indoor National Tournament that is being held there! What it takes is some dedicated people, INCLUDING THE PROS THEMSELVES, to just get out and ASK...and yes, lawyers, bankers, doctors, hardware stores, auto dealerships, real estate brokers, ARCHERY CLUBS, restaurants, hotels,Unions, Auto Repair shops, bars & Grilles, Sports Bars, Bicycle Shops, and the like WILL contribute...if asked. There are two choices...they will say YES, or they will say NO...but is anyone willing to get out and pound the bricks in LOUISVILLE? NO! The PROS want the NFAA to do all of this for them....and the NFAA isn't crazy about looking for LOCAL contributions, evidently, or it would be done.
I've mentioned before that a racquetball tournament in a small town in Wyoming....paid out for 1st Place...$10,000, and there were only 20 PROS allowed into the event due to court time restrictions. LITTLE of that money came from the 20 players' registration of $100 each, and the National Org only contributed a tiny fraction too. This was for 1st place only...$10,000 for ONE person...the 2nd and 3rd place finished were also well rewarded!
How was this done? LOCALLY...thru people getting off their duffs and pounding the bricks...asked the above sorts of people. Nothing to lose by trying, but many won't help themselves, now will they? Want it handed to them on a platter...and if it happens to not be as big of a purse this year as last...SOME are looking the gift horse in the mouth...and then turning around and saying "It is going DOWN every year, so we won't be back." Putting the cart before the horse, isn't it? Nothing to lose by asking...the worst they can say is "NO", and the best is they come up with $100, or $250 or who knows, maybe $1,000...to contribute to the Pro Purse.
Something is better than nothing...but nobody apparently wants to go out and get it these days.
But no, gotta tear down and almost slander a successful event due to some personal hidden agenda.


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## Ditch Pickle

Its called awaver and why shuold the shooter have to pay
for you for the shops yearly ins there was over ten thuosand gross made
just that weakend


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## FV Chuck

# 1 Gentlemen -

Tone it down or I'll lock it up. This is a PROFESSIONAL and Public forum 

#2
THere will be no vote for the creation of an outside Pro Org that comeptes against the NFAA Pro division held at ANY NFAA Pro meeting. It's contradictory to the host org.If you would like to drum support for the creation of an outside org, you'll have to do it on your own dime and time.

Chuck


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## field14

Ditch Pickle said:


> Its called awaver and why shuold the shooter have to pay
> for you for the shops yearly ins there was over ten thuosand gross made
> just that weakend


They don't really. The store operates YEAR ROUND so the insurance is a matter of doing business, now, isn't it. 208 X $35 each is NOT over $10,000 GROSS for the weekend, but is $7,820 if you assume that ALL 208 paid $35 into that "Gross" part of it; which not all did...we have Cubs, and the Championship Division registrants did NOT pay $35 into the general fund...only paid $25 each into the general fund. However, I would well surmise that since Presley's deals in things other than archery...and the FACT that we had say, 208 competitors PLUS spouses, friends, observers, audience, etc...in a sporting goods store, a few weeks before Christmas and had time on their hands.....well, you can see where this is going, haha. 

It isn't about the MONEY, however, the tournament was put together to promote competitive ARCHERY in the Midwest and to give the competitors an opportunity to hone their skills before the Iowa Pro-Am...but some seem to be choosing to think that the tournament is ALL ABOUT THE PROS and how much MONEY the PROS are getting. Sure we capitalize on the Championship Payout; who wouldn't? Is it wrong to advertise that first place in the Men's Championship Freestyle took home a check for $1,374.87 and a $300 Aurora bowcase? Well apparently in some people's minds this is TOO MUCH, and in others, it just never is ENOUGH...and should be done DIFFERENTLY and under the control of the PROS or something like that.
field14


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## field14

FV Chuck said:


> # 1 Gentlemen -
> 
> Tone it down or I'll lock it up. This is a PROFESSIONAL and Public forum
> 
> #2
> THere will be no vote for the creation of an outside Pro Org that comeptes against the NFAA Pro division held at ANY NFAA Pro meeting. It's contradictory to the host org.If you would like to drum support for the creation of an outside org, you'll have to do it on your own dime and time.
> 
> Chuck


#1. above....Agreed, Chuck...
But the old he said, she said...and indirect insults to integrity and down right FALSE information is over the line. The information asked for was posted, but the personal assault on the integrity of the tournament host and tournament director was obvious and inexcusable. This tournament IS a success and will continue to be a success. The people on the committee work their tails off to make it that way...but all it takes is a few of those such as one of them above...and the committee members get a sour taste in their mouths in a hurry...and it isn't long and they say, "To heck with those guys" we ain't doing this anymore, it isn't worth the hassle"....But no, people have to get nit-noe and say that plenty isn't enough, bad-mouth the event or its staff...and before long...bye-bye to a good thing thanks to a few nay-sayers that don't really have the facts.

#2. I have nothing to do with, so no comments on this one.


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## Ditch Pickle

The numbers are high the pay out low no other way to look at it


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## field14

FV Chuck said:


> # 1 Gentlemen -
> 
> Tone it down or I'll lock it up. This is a PROFESSIONAL and Public forum
> 
> #2
> THere will be no vote for the creation of an outside Pro Org that comeptes against the NFAA Pro division held at ANY NFAA Pro meeting. It's contradictory to the host org.If you would like to drum support for the creation of an outside org, you'll have to do it on your own dime and time.
> 
> Chuck


Chuck, agreed.

#1> I know he said, he said, then I said, BUT...the personal integrity of the host site and also the tournament chairman AND in addition, the entire tournament committee was attacked, which is inexcusable. Can't expect a person to sit idly by and be put down like that and do nothing. The information asked for was given...and NOT READ before the next assault. The event being discussed at that point is successful. However, with the type of personal assaults launched and the questioning of the integrity and "accuracy" of the payouts being tossed under question...it doesn't take long for that person's "agenda" to give the tournament committee, and more importantly the host site to get fed up with those types of people, pull the plug and simply say, "It isn't worth the hassle". All it takes is a couple of people like that and ALL of archery WILL suffer from the blazen comments of an ill-informed person with a different "agenda" be it directed at one person..or the entire crew. Yes it is PROFESSIONAL...but.... a "paying professional" took the first slap shot, hahahaha.


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## field14

Ditch Pickle said:


> The numbers are high the pay out low no other way to look at it


SAY WHAT? SAY WHAT? SAY WHAT? Are you perhaps implying that there is "skullduggery" going on...because it sure looks like it to me!

Total Championship Purse money taken in is equal to the TOTAL Championship PURSE PAYOUT to the PENNY, period, PLAIN AND SIMPLE

You know, there is MORE to the Campionship Division than just the Championship MEN'S FREESTYLE...the WORLD does NOT revolve around them. There are OTHER Championship Divisions that got THEIR fair and equitable piece of the TOTAL PAYOUT pie too, just like is supposed to happen, you know.

You think this is some fly by night tournament and that the Sponsor doesn't have to account for every single dime taken in and paid out? SAY WHAT!!!

What makes you think that, by following the NFAA Payout % Chart that somebody was "shorted"? We do NOT rob the other Championship Divisions to give the MEN'S Championship Freestylers MORE than their fair share, nor are the MEN'S Championship Freestylers "robbed" to give more money to the SENIOR Men's Freestylers. For you to insinuate this is insulting!

I don't have to, nor will I post the spreadsheet that balances this entire thing to the PENNY....and Do NOT forget, not one red cent of the TROPHY shooters' registration fee BELONGS to any of the Championship Purse either.

I don't like your implications.

field14 (Tom D.)


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## Ditch Pickle

There was no assault on any body just thinking how 
this happens with the mony and how come


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## Ditch Pickle

Sorry i got yoer gout thats not what i intended very nice shoot 
just cant get the math write and at many others


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## field14

Ditch Pickle said:


> Sorry i got yoer gout thats not what i intended very nice shoot
> just cant get the math write and at many others


OK...sorry my dander was up from the previous assaults by a different person.

Trust ALL of us.. the math IS right...and that sheet is balanced down to the penny. The Championship Division is a separate entitity, and is carefully checked over and over and over again for accuracy. Just remember the OTHER divisions besides the Men's Championship. Also remember that the percentage participation of the Men's Championship Freestyle can and does vary...so their Percentage of the "Contributed Purse" can and will fluctuate based upon that. ALL of the $55 of each individual Championship registrant's money goes ONLY to their shooting class...not a penny from Lady's Championship Freestlye will find its way to the MEN's Championship Freestlye; doesn't work that way. Nor will the Lady's get a penny from that $55 from the MEN'S Freestyle either.
From there the other side of the 'pot' is the Contributions side. THAT is broken down by % participation by each Class in the Championship Division, since the $55 portion is SET by how many actual people are registered.
Not complicated, but if you are trying to back work it, I can see the cornfusion (spelling error intentional, ha). It is the ONLY way to split up the Contributed Purse that is fair and equitable and doesn't rob from one to the other....your class has 60% of the total registrants, then YOUR class will get 60% of the Total Contributed purse PLUS the amount of $55 each for however many are in your class (we know this number, it is easy, ha). The final Contributed Purse is NOT fully known until around 7PM of the first day of the event, because sometimes a check from a sponsor comes in late. So, we wait. 
Now you know why we don't give REFUNDS to no shows or people that cancel after a given deadline...it would, especially in the Championship Division be a real pain in the butt, now wouldn't it?

Hope this helps...
T


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## gcab

Why does it matter what Presleys, a non NFAA shoot and having nothing to do with the Vegas tournament, pays out at their tournament? From the first post, it appears that there was an announcement that the payouts for Vegas have been improved upon. Who cares what Presleys' does as it relates to this thread. How about posting thanks to NFAA for the changes and question Presley's in a different thread so that NFAA can move forward with positive changes without having bystanders read through 3 pages of complaints that don't have anything to do with anything except grudges that people hold and dont shoot each others tournament anyways. 

NFAA made a positive change on an item, thank you for that. Can we move on to the next one now?


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## bigGP

field14 said:


> BigGP.
> 
> You said, "What insurance did you use to cover that event again? Just curious "
> 
> Well, guess what....the STORE's archery range insurance makes the NFAA range insurance look like a puddle of toffee. Presley's Outdoors is NOT an archery club, and doesn't deal just with ARCHERY...their insurance is more than ample to cover your hostilities.
> See, not every "tournament" has to bend over and bow to BigGP.....
> field14 (Tom D.)



The inbox is already filling up with people laughing at you......... Par for the course. 

Think about this Tom.... While that may be a great a shoot and you may be of the believe it is the best format...Squeezing in extra lanes at the expense of shooting room (For what 2 extra spots?) and continuing to brag about how much it pays when the winner keeps getting less and less combined with your belligerence about any and every topic would seem to me (And ALOT of others) to not only be counter productive but also harm the shoot you profess to adore so much? 


Your drawn out babbling answers, myopia and lack of rationale have become far to much to bear. Sometimes LESS is more Tom...but don't believe me, keep it up your doing great! LMAO


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## FV Chuck

gcab said:


> Why does it matter what Presleys, a non NFAA shoot and having nothing to do with the Vegas tournament, pays out at their tournament? From the first post, it appears that there was an announcement that the payouts for Vegas have been improved upon. Who cares what Presleys' does as it relates to this thread. How about posting thanks to NFAA for the changes and question Presley's in a different thread so that NFAA can move forward with positive changes without having bystanders read through 3 pages of complaints that don't have anything to do with anything except grudges that people hold and dont shoot each others tournament anyways.
> 
> NFAA made a positive change on an item, thank you for that. Can we move on to the next one now?



Agreed...and thank you

I've been very hesitant to "be the bad guy" or exert to much force on issues or topics, preferring to let them go down their natural path. Unfortunately I think this has digressed a bit too far.

If you would like to open discussion for ANY other matter lets start another thread... and keep it civil.

I'll give it a couple more posts to calm down, then I'll lock it if not.

GENTLEMEN ... this is the second bang of the gavel.... civil tone, straight facts, no bashing. ... Done


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## field14

bigGP said:


> The inbox is already filling up with people laughing at you......... Par for the course.
> 
> 
> Your drawn out babbling answers, myopia and lack of rationale have become far to much to bear. Sometimes LESS is more Tom...but don't believe me, keep it up your doing great! LMAO


Once again, BigGP; you are totally mis-informed! Our lane widths are STANDARD 2 feet across, and not anything near what you describe...One more piece of dis-information you are getting and broadcasting without checking it out first.


This in addition to being shown TWICE as PROOF that the payout does NOT go down every year...but fluctuates with the economy, the moods and profit margins of those contributing to the money purse, and the percentage participation of those that are IN the tournament. 

I agree with Chuck and the others...back to the NFAA doing something to IMPROVE the situation. All I ask is that you READ the FACTS and check out your information before you post...again, our lane widths are the STANDARD 2 feet for each person on the shooting line. We don't 'cram 'em in to get another couple of people...again, more dis-information. The range DOES in fact, muster NFAA inspection guidelines, and was (past tense) inspected by the NFAA and certified. In fact two years ago, many of the NFAA "gurus" were at the facility during the event! We have several sectional councilmen and NFAA directors that attend this event every year.
I've been asked by the management staff to let you have your opinion, which I should have done in the first place, and basically, if you don't like it, then don't come to the shoot...there are many out there that will come to the tournament

Now, back to the thread and YES! It is great concerning the NFAA/WAF doing more to help the Money Payout in the Vegas Tournament!
field14 (Tom D)


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## deadx

FV Chuck said:


> # 1 Gentlemen -
> 
> Tone it down or I'll lock it up. This is a PROFESSIONAL and Public forum
> 
> #2
> THere will be no vote for the creation of an outside Pro Org that comeptes against the NFAA Pro division held at ANY NFAA Pro meeting. It's contradictory to the host org.If you would like to drum support for the creation of an outside org, you'll have to do it on your own dime and time.
> 
> Chuck


You know what Chuck, forget it pal. Lets all just continue to be NFAA pros where it only means something to be a pro at ....what.......3 NFAA shoots. Lets just continue to have any one with $75 pro dues be a pro and never take professional archery to the level where pros can earn a living shooting their bows. It is NEVER going to happen this way. I`m done.


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## mightybaron

I am not a pro but have been reading this whole thing and have found it quite interesting and hilarious at the same time. Chuck I have delt with you on some of your vision stuff at nationals and was pleased with what you did for my kid on that with him getting glasses. Also you were the pro shooting with me once and I had fun shooting with you even tho your bow had some problems that day. I think your idea is going in a direction and I dont have enough experience in all of it to know if it is the right way or wrong way but at least something is being done. From what I have seen that is more than was done in a long time so at least you have a vision. Listening to ppl like Dee Wilde is a good thing they have been around a long time and have vast amounts of knowlege that can be helpfull. This thread didnt get out of hand untill someone with his typical know it all attitude got on here yapping about how everything should be done and how great he is at doing it. Some of his ideas are good and will work if the bull is taken by the horns and it is done but a person gets really tired of him hijacking every thread and flapping his gums about how everything he did or does is the only right way and everyone else is wrong period. Also it looks like he just has to be the last to needle someone. I just hope that maybe someday instead of ppl chiming in on greatness they would all start working together and make something of this. Reading this makes me think of old school days!! My Dad can beat up your Dad!!!!! Some of this was just a little childish. Sorry but someone has to say it.


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## FV Chuck

deadx said:


> You know what Chuck, forget it pal. Lets all just continue to be NFAA pros where it only means something to be a pro at ....what.......3 NFAA shoots. Lets just continue to have any one with $75 pro dues be a pro and never take professional archery to the level where pros can earn a living shooting their bows. It is NEVER going to happen this way. I`m done.


Your missing my point, 
I cannot publicly support forming a competing Pro Org while I work for another... Kind of like trying to form the AFL while I play for the NFL. I certainly can't or won't use NFAA funds and time to try and kill or override the NFAA pros.
I also believe that some major financial ground was gained for several classes including yours for the upcoming Vegas event. (See beginning of this thread)
Clearly there is much work to be done to grow our group in every area including finance but it dosent happen overnight. 
I think you will see a Q school and minimum requirements for a Pro card on the horizon. It's something we as a group spoke of at the last meeting. 

Be patient, your goals and dreams are shared by many of us, including me. It will just take time and investment to get it there


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## FV Chuck

And with that, I will thank all of you very much for your passion and vigor... It's time to lock this for now and start separate threads that deal with any of the other topics that have been generated.

Let's ALL remember your Pro code of conduct when on AT or any other public venue. For those that are not pros again thank you very much for your input. It's appreciated. It is wise for us (Pros) all to remember where we came from, to remember we are watched and listened to by the masses and we need to act accordingly.

Feel free to start the new threads now.

Chuck


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