# Bobbing up and down on target



## jim p

My left and right hold is looking pretty good but I am bobbing up and down. What are some of the things that I need to do to help with this bobbing? I am only bobbing 2" or so if this information helps any.


----------



## cbrunson

Increase front stab weight.


----------



## sam1911

I would add more weight to your back bar and/or change the angle that the bar leaves your bow at. You are going to have to play with it for awhile.


----------



## RCR_III

This could be a number of things. It could be the bars and weights or orientation of them. It could be your grip pressures. It could be your bow shoulder. It could be draw length. It could be loop length. 

Do you have a coach in your area that can work with you and see you to access the situation? If not, I have a website www.rcrchery.wordpress.com that you could read through stabilizer set up, draw length, and shoulders. And I have my email address on there as well under my coaching/tuning page.


----------



## SonnyThomas

I have to ask. Are you a certified coach or at least have coaching credentials?


----------



## jim p

RCR, I read you article on shoulder alignment and I think this will be my first experiment. I know that I never consciously lower my draw shoulder. I do lower my bow shoulder. It is going to be interesting to see how my draw shoulder reacts to trying to lower it. I don't know if I can relax the draw shoulder because I have my bow set up so that I have to hold pretty solid against the draw stops.


----------



## Sasquech

This is a common issue with my students. It generally comes from drawing above the target as you should then lowering your arm to bring the sight to the target. This is wrong. You draw such that at anchor you are about 6 inches above the spot. Then ensure that your front shoulder is down. Sight must still be above the spot. Use the waist to tilt the t and bring the sight down to the spot. Lowering the arm to align the sight changes the bone on bone alignment that will steady your hold. Tilting at the waist that few degrees will bang it out and keep you solid.


----------



## montigre

^^^ This :thumbs_up


----------



## jim p

When I draw I am 1 to 2 feet above the target. I will lower my draw and see how this works. Thanks for the information.


----------



## RCR_III

jim p said:


> RCR, I read you article on shoulder alignment and I think this will be my first experiment. I know that I never consciously lower my draw shoulder. I do lower my bow shoulder. It is going to be interesting to see how my draw shoulder reacts to trying to lower it. I don't know if I can relax the draw shoulder because I have my bow set up so that I have to hold pretty solid against the draw stops.


I haven't seen a picture of you or seen you shoot, so take this just as a personal story of mine. When I was too short on my d loop, I couldn't place my release shoulder the way it needed to be. If you still have issues with it let me know.


----------



## RCR_III

SonnyThomas said:


> I have to ask. Are you a certified coach or at least have coaching credentials?


Nope, but I stayed at a Holiday Inn once.....


----------



## cbrunson

Collapsing the bow shoulder causes a sinking dot. Bobbing is a stability issue.


----------



## jim p

I am not stable. You are correct.


----------



## Sasquech

Please try my shoulder adjust at waist with tilt to adjust your sight elevation alignment.


----------



## jim p

I am trying your shoulder alignment method. It is helping. It really feels strange tilting at the waist to come down on target. If I am in a tree stand and shooting down it just seems natural to tilt at the waist but standing on level ground and tilting just blows my mind. 

I am a slow learner so it may take a couple of weeks for this to become part of my shot process.


----------



## jmclfrsh

I'm going to try the tilt at waist method later today also. I've been trying to analyze my float pattern and will try moving the "T" and see how it does for me.


----------



## jim p

I went out this morning and shot while I was fresh. I drew about 6" above the target and then tried tilting at the waist to come on target. It was almost like this is not going to happen. So I decide to draw about 4 feet high and tilt at the waist to get on target. I could do this. Then I decided to draw 6" above the target and let the bow settle to the top of the 9 ring. At this point I would relax my release hand and the sight would drop to the x. This worked pretty good.

Using any of these techniques seems to eliminate most of the bobbing. I am going to try drawing 6" above the x and tilting to the top of the nine ring and then relaxing the release hand. If the sight drops into the x consistently this may be the best technique for me.

Since I am having such a hard time making this small tilt, are there any techniques for doing this tilt. I noticed that I can push my hips away from the target and the sight comes down.


----------



## montigre

It sounds like you're trying to make too much out of the tilt. It actually feels more like a slight shift in weight forward rather than a full out tilt as you would do from a tree stand while hunting--it's a much more subtle movement. :wink:


----------



## SonnyThomas

Jim, aiming above the target has been "do" thing for forever. Getting on target all the tension should be gone. Tension is always a killer. At anytime you try coming up to get on target the tension returns and bobbing will be there.

Hey, I got tension. So much strength loss, muscle tone, muscle memory, my reattach scapula responding slow or having to force. I have to be above the POI or it's a no-go. I freeze or bob. Hell, to let down (hurts more to let down than draw). Same thing today at the 3D event. Froze low, if didn't let down my shots fell in low each time. That I didn't force a upward movement the bobbing was not there. If I let the tension out the pin would find the X.....

Did you try the test? Simulate full draw and anchored? Was the release shoulder "right there?" Ask montigre, cbrunson, sasquech.


----------



## jim p

I am not sure which test you are talking about. I will give anything a try when it comes to shooting.

I have been able to get the release shoulder down and fairly relaxed.

It may be a bad habit to get into but if I had a repaired shoulder there is no way that I would let down. I would shoot an arrow in the dirt but I would not let down.

I have also had severe strength loss and in May I could not hold the bow on a vegas face. I am now recovering and getting my strength back. It is not good when you can't even come close to holding the bow still.


----------



## SonnyThomas

Just simulate at full draw and anchored. Where's your draw shoulder? Do you have to force it to move? If you do you it was in the right place to start with.


----------



## Sasquech

Just to be clear the front shoulder I am talking about is the bow shoulder. The tilt should be very slight after all the whole Vegas spot is only a couple of degrees


----------



## cbrunson

SonnyThomas said:


> Jim, aiming above the target has been "do" thing for forever. Getting on target all the tension should be gone. Tension is always a killer. At anytime you try coming up to get on target the tension returns and bobbing will be there.


This^^^^^

And the quick and dirty fix to slow it down is front weight. From what I've seen of your posts, you need some time behind the string to also get the form issues worked out.


----------



## Sasquech

I second that^^^^^^^^


----------



## jim p

I agree. It is going to take some shooting time for me to get better. Thanks to all of you fellows for all these good tips. I want to shoot better but the truth is that I can now feel average about my shooting. If I don't get any better it will be ok but I will continue to try to improve as long as I can pull my bow.

I keep seeing improvement so I feel like there is a possibility that I may make it to a 300 vegas target one day.


----------



## ToSi

Up and down movement on the target is most likely caused by wrong draw length and/or wrong rear shoulder placement. Try shorten draw length first. Then look that your rear shoulder is down too. I mean, if the rear shoulder is up, it pulls the front end down. 

check out: https://youtu.be/gexDLptcios?t=1m33s


----------



## nochance

have you tried putting more weight on the back? How long is the rear stabilizer?


----------



## SonnyThomas

ToSi said:


> Up and down movement on the target is most likely caused by wrong draw length and/or wrong rear shoulder placement. Try shorten draw length first. Then look that your rear shoulder is down too. I mean, if the rear shoulder is up, it pulls the front end down.
> Still with me is YouTube will not load up on my computer. And now, clicking on Learn More won't take me anywhere.
> 
> check out: https://youtu.be/gexDLptcios?t=1m33s



Still, different manners of different coaches? My release/draw shoulder is "right there" and maybe my draw length is something of correct. To move it takes force and to force means it shouldn't have been moved to start with. BUT another explanation may have the same thing going. Yep, Bernie Pellerite. Basically, pivot point established the muscles can work, function with far less stress or no stress. Now, not once in the passage was the draw shoulder said anywhere but where it was.
Spoke for a hour on the phone with Doug Springer (Stanislawski) and what he told me was something of the same thing. Dang easy to test with a hinge and using back tension. Hold elbow low, which makes the elbow go out some, and use back tension to fire the hinge. You'll pull yourself to death and when the shot does happen it won't be good. Elbow up and all works so much smoother. Just like Doug told me I soon had my Trainer shooting across the room with no real stress at all....


----------



## EPLC

This may or not be the issue here but since it hasn't been considered I'll mention it. Bobbing on the target "can" be a physical issue, namely what they call a "intentional tremor". I have this problem and actually had to switch to LH to resolve it. I've run across several archers along the way with this problem and there is no resolution besides switching hand. redman here on AT and Frank Pearson have this issue and have switched from RH to LH successfully. Not saying it is, but it is worth considering if this seems to be some uncontrollable force making you bob in kind of a rhythmic motion. A video of you shooting with the bob would be great.


----------



## jim p

I pretty much have the bobbing solved. I think that my main problem was getting below the x and then having to raise the bow back up. This induced the tension and caused bobbing. By drawing just slightly above the target and slowly moving down and not dropping below the x then I am in good shape.


----------



## montigre

Good work!! Now you just have to get it ingrained into your muscle memory. :thumbs_up


----------



## montigre

I currently have a student who has severe ataxia with an underlying intention tremor. When I first started working with her this past July, her float exceeded the diameter of a 122cm target and she was not able to hit the bale at 5 feet. Now she is down to shooting an 80cm target at 15 yards and when she concentrates on hitting the middle, her ataxia and tremor all but disappear for the few seconds of her aiming and release and her arrows are mostly in the 8-9 rings. I am very confident that if she keeps up the practice and exercises we've given her, she'll be shooting a standard single spot target at 20 yards before the end on this indoor season.

I write this because for this student, it was vitally important for her not to draw her bow too high which would have caused her to have to use additional muscles to get her arrow back on target because she'd otherwise drop right out the bottom and would never settle into a fluid, predictable float. Like Jim discovered, having to pull the bow up after reaching full draw causes all sorts of upper body alignment issues which, in turn causes added tension to be placed on the muscles. 

Training the body to maintain proper form and alignment from draw into anchor and through execution is difficult to learn, but much easier to work with as a whole as opposed to having to find a way of compensating for extreme body movements during the shot cycle.


----------



## SonnyThomas

jim p said:


> I pretty much have the bobbing solved. I think that my main problem was getting below the x and then having to raise the bow back up. This induced the tension and caused bobbing. By drawing just slightly above the target and slowly moving down and not dropping below the x then I am in good shape.


:thumbs_up

EPLC and montigre brought up some facts of shakes. If field14 saw this he's chime in. He has nerve issues from I believe surgery, but don't bring your B game.


----------



## montigre

SonnyThomas said:


> If field14 saw this he's chime in. He has nerve issues from I believe surgery, but don't bring your B game.


That's right, I had forgotten Tom's battle with tremors. I believe he did quite a write up on AT about tackling them a few years back.


----------



## D.Short

Just wanted to say that this has been a very enlightening discussion,the honesty,enrichment,and true compassion shown to fellow shooters is refreshing after years of bickering threads on here.
Kudos and God bless to all of you.


----------



## SonnyThomas

D.Short said:


> Just wanted to say that this has been a very enlightening discussion,the honesty,enrichment,and true compassion shown to fellow shooters is refreshing after years of bickering threads on here.
> Kudos and God bless to all of you.


Thank you.......


----------



## ron w

I have found that considerable input to having a "bobbing sight picture" lies in how relaxed your bow hand is. when there is tension on the bow hand, the harder musculature allows the grip to rock under the dynamic tension of full draw in the entire bow/ hand/anchor triangle and that tension creates the "bobbing sight picture". a fully relaxed bow hand and fully, "bone to bone relaxed wrist and hand structure" acts as a damper to the condition.


----------



## Sasquech

Nicely put Ron if their shoulder is right you are spot on but to put a good bit on the end of a bent drill still makes a wobbly hole.


----------



## ron w

true, I just mentioned it because no-one else did and it is a legit element to the issue. there's no proof, only assumptions that his draw shoulder is high, he admits to not "deliberately lowering the shoulder",.... that doesn't say that he is doing it, just that he is not consciously aware of doing it. the point is that it most likely is not any one thing mentioned, but probably a combination of all of the conditions, not being met. if that's the case, i's best to be aware of all the contributors and deliberately work on all of them in a "check list" style. 
not being aware of all the contributors, does no good, it's too easy to work on something that really isn't the problem at all......we are not there, seeing him shoot.
this site has a tendency to zero in one thing that one of the more experienced shooters mention and unanimously adopt and apply that issue to the question or problem the OP asked about, simply because it was mentioned by one experienced person, whether it is a guess or not..... and without seeing the OP shoot, it can only be a guess....so as long as everyone is guessing, all the potential contributors and their remedies, should be exposed. 
two pages of shoulder alignment because one person mentioned it as a possible issue, no more or less legit that any other issue, when it is only guessed and assumed that the OP's problem is shoulder alignment.


----------



## Sasquech

I spoke with him and made my post as a result of the specific detailed interview. But you are correct there are many contributors. Draw length posture,draw form, let off , tiller, anchor muscle tone , front arm,shoulder position, bow grip, wrist position ........to name a few. They all need to be correct to minimize sight movement.


----------



## jim p

Thanks to all for your help. I have been shooting for 47 years and the last 4 years I was pathetic. I was shooting 8" groups at 20 yards and not having a clue what was causing the problem. I am now shooting 2" groups at 20 yards. 

I had always shot bows with low letoffs. I got a bow 4 years ago that had a high letoff. I think that this high letoff magnified all of my form problems and was causing all of my terrible shooting. After 4 years of trying to get my form perfect, I finally tried tuning the bow so that I was holding more weight. This extra holding weight seems to helping greatly and I am now shooting good enough to worry about bobbing. When I was shooting 8" groups bobbing was the least of my problems.

Thanks again.


----------



## ron w

unfortunately, age has a lot to do with how well we shoot. as we get older, we loose the fine muscle control that stabilizes or sight picture. I have come to the realization that I will never shoot as well as I did in my 30's and 40's years old. the time is now, to just enjoy shooting instead of being all wound tight about hitting the center every time. much of my current enjoyment of archery, is conveying what I know from my experience, here on AT.


----------



## Padgett

I saw this thread when It started and must have gotten distracted and didn't post, To me dropping out the bottom or bobbing isn't a option because being a asa 3d guy I simply can't be messing around with shooting out the bottom of low back 12's and I aim at all of them dead on. I struggled with it for a long time until I finally learned my lesson on adding Back Tension Preload to my system. The moment that I added this to my system it complimented my shooting in many ways and I have really never had any negative issues come from it. It doesn't have to be a over powering thing in your shot, in fact mine is a very subtle amount of preload and it happens as I settle into anchor before my shot even begins.


----------



## Padgett

Back Tension, PRELOAD:
Well Well Well, this is something that has been a long time coming for me but in the last 6 months has been a wonderful addition to my shooting that I believe has boosted my shooting to a slightly higher level than before. It all started about a year and a half ago at my buddy Rick’s house shooting his 3d range, he stopped me after a shot and said “Did you know that you are creeping forward every shot”. Hell no I didn’t know that I was creeping forward every shot and for the next month or so it really bothered me because I could feel it wanting to happen all the stinking time and I battled mentally to keep from doing it. My bow was creep tuned really good so the creeping forward wasn’t causing the arrow to hit funny on the target but deep down inside I knew that this was something I needed to address sooner or later.
So let's skip forward a few month into the indoor season this early winter and one day for some reason I checked my bow and my draw length was almost a half inch long and I didn’t even know it so i twisted up my string and reset the draw length and on my bow I have a option of moving the draw stops from 75% to 65% let off so I went ahead and thought you know i have shot this bow for over 4 years now I guess it wouldn’t hurt to try them in the 65% setting. All this does is shortens the valley to basically no valley right on the edge of ripping your arm right out of your shoulder if you creep at all and to do so it shortens the draw length by about a 1/8 inch.
Well I had twisted my string back to my normal draw length before moving the draw stops to the 65% setting so moving them basically shortened the draw length just enough that I felt something that I had never felt before. PRELOAD.
What I have learned since then is that I was a guy that was coming to anchor and sitting in the valley and just touching the wall and I was doing so so lightly that if I left the wall during the shot execution I didn’t even feel it happening. So especially if I was shooting my hinge with any form of yielding where you allow the hand to stretch I was totally creeping forward and had no idea that it was happening. Secondly if I was shooting with some form of pulling into the wall I was so light against the wall that when I began that effort that sometimes i would do quite a bit of effort and not even be to the wall before the shot fired so I must have been just sitting in the valley not really against the wall at all.
So, by accident I have lucked out and set my draw length and then I moved my draw pegs to the 65% let off setting and this has given me a draw length setting that seems to be too short. Well, it wasn’t to short. Actually it was the first time ever that my draw length was spot on perfect. With this draw length I come to anchor and am touching the wall and my body still has a little left in the tank so as I settle in on the spot and my pin is moving the last few inches towards the spot I add a little back tension to the wall and my body ever so slightly pulls me into the wall. This is so so so so so important to realize that I am no longer just sitting in the valley and touching the wall, I am now inside the wall.
Now I have no idea how much inside the wall I am but mentally I like to think that it is about a 1/8 inch inside the wall but again that is totally a fictional number that I am making up. I guess a guy could put a mark on his arrow in a draw board when the cables are barely touching the draw stops and then come to full draw and add his back tension preload and have someone see for real how much they are pulling into the wall but I have never done this to actually see the truth.
I do not fire my hinge with back tension, i use a firing engine that creates rotation and that firing engine starts after the preload has already been applied to my system so the preload is basically that last little bit of lining up your rear arm with the arrow so that it is in a perfectly straight line so this is where setting your draw length perfectly is so important so that the wall happens just before your rear arm is perfectly straight in line with the arrow.
I will say that this is a totally different sensation from just pulling straight back into the wall with your hand and release and I absolutely do not recommend that you do so, it is also not a violent or overpowering sensation. Back tension preload is something that you feel and it is solid but it is not excessive and to me it is what top shooters are feeling when they have their bow draw length set perfectly, top shooters have this draw length written down and they know what it is for a reason and they may not be a coach that can give you the reasons why it is so important but they just know that that draw length is the one that produces really freaking good feel and shooting so they use it.
This is something that i have only written about a very few times so it is still in development and I am really interested in hearing from people that have perfected it to chime in so that in the future I can produce an article that I consider solid and add it to my website because right now I don’t feel I am ready. All I know is that it is something that has really helped me achieve a even better execution and feel during my shooting and it is well worth my time to master it and gain the ability to give it to other shooters.


----------



## Padgett

I hadn't read that article in a while so I just read it and this is one of those things that came from another issue creeping forward during the shot but in the end it solved other puzzeling issues in my shooting such as the dropping out the bottom or bobbing. In fact I think my bobbing came from the creeping forward during my firing engine because my back end was creeping forward and loosing tension in my shot and that transferred into my front arm wiggling around up and down. Your back end should compliment your front end with very consistent pressure against the wall and then you become much more solid.


----------



## SonnyThomas

jim p said:


> Thanks to all for your help. I have been shooting for 47 years and the last 4 years I was pathetic. I was shooting 8" groups at 20 yards and not having a clue what was causing the problem. I am now shooting 2" groups at 20 yards.
> 
> I had always shot bows with low letoffs. I got a bow 4 years ago that had a high letoff. I think that this high letoff magnified all of my form problems and was causing all of my terrible shooting. After 4 years of trying to get my form perfect, I finally tried tuning the bow so that I was holding more weight. This extra holding weight seems to helping greatly and I am now shooting good enough to worry about bobbing. When I was shooting 8" groups bobbing was the least of my problems.
> 
> Thanks again.


For what I read here something more is at foot. Total bow fit? Shooting as long as you have I'd think you have shooting friends. Have you had one go one-on-one with you?

I don't believe extra holding weight is the problem. I've used 75% since day one of returning to archery 15 years ago. Starting in the summer of 2010 and to date my bows are set to 80%. Faster bows I've lowered my draw weight to 55 pound with 80% let off. Yeah, 11 pounds holding weight. I'll have to look, but think my "play bow" is set to 58 pounds with 85% let off for 8.7 pounds holding weight and the little toy bow is dead accurate. I really believe draw length is paramount. Too long and you'll creep and won't know it. Too short isn't too short. Look at my draw length and you'll see something of 29" with d-loop. Used this woman's 23 1/2" draw bow and drilled Xs at will. All the men there that day did the same. Her husband, 6 foot 2 inches. One man the size of small grizzly and another 82 years old.

Don't know how old you are, Jim, but I'm past 66 years old and a long ways from being recovered from my injury and surgery 4 months ago. Still using 55 pounds of draw weight I struggle with the 1st shot until I'm wore out. At let off, full draw, piece of cake except my strength isn't fully there for endurance, close though. Shooting in the back yard, arrow after arrow, is not 3D. I've got a few minutes between shots in 3D and I'm going to a 30 target 3D this Sunday...provided I don't do something stupid.

Nope, paper target shooting ain't the same as 3D, but accuracy is and more I think. Unknown yardage, different target, no X to see, up or down hill shots....

I get into....a fits over so much BS that runs rampant on AT. Mainly the BS I think is over tuning, arrow build and the such. Yesterday I built a "thrown together" arrow. Just sawed it off shorter than my regular arrow, no squaring, turned the nock I don't know how many times to dismiss the spine stuff, stuck in a bent glue-in point, stripped the vanes off and shot the sucker over a dozen times at 20 yards. Later, I grabbed that misfit arrow by mistake while practicing with my Zenith hinge using back tension to fire and finger manipulation to fire. Again, 80% let off and bow shooting 284 fps and the arrow a long ways from what you'd call a Indoor arrow considering a 80 gr point. 
Here are the results;
http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=2717145&p=1078389258#post1078389258
http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=2372134&p=1078398698#post1078398698


----------



## jim p

I am 62 years old but high mileage.

Sonny, your talent over comes many things. $10000 worth of equipment and 10 cents worth of talent wont get a person very far.

It seems that for me that the higher holding weight forces me to have better alignment and this results in better shooting for me. When I have a low holding weight it is like I just want to squirm around during the shot. A hooter shooter would probably put all the arrows in the same hole no matter what the holding weight.

I shot for 4 years never knowing where the arrow was going to hit. I would stand looking at the target and wondering what could I have done to cause the arrow to go 4" right or left when I knew that the sights were showing center target.

During this 4 year period I mainly used a zenith hinge release. I also used a short n sweet trigger release and a hydraulic scat release. I have recently started using the scat release. I like the hydraulic release because all I have to do is release the thumb trigger and wait for about 3 seconds and the release fires. If I keep my pin centered the arrow hits behind the pin. I don't know why the hydraulic release is not more popular. You can't cheat the hydraulic release and it never needs to be manipulated in any way. I do think that the hydraulic release could be made to fit the hand better and some tiny improvements could be made as far as more fine adjustments.

I had some 1" groups today. Not as many as I would have liked but it appears that I am still making some small improvements.

So thanks again.


----------



## SonnyThomas

Wish you wouldn't say that. I don't have any talent.. If I had any talent I wouldn't be here. I just shoot a lot, if nothing else for my own piece of mind.


----------



## RCR_III

I just wanted to put some food for thought out on the hydraulic vs non for releases. This takes a different train of thought and a different mental approach to shooting. But if you'll allow yourself to float on target and run your release execution and let things go on auto pilot, the brain sees the motion and what the pin is doing on the target and will move the muscles in the body to fire the release when it sees the desired sight picture and location. That's why I would not want to use a hydraulic release. I want to allow my subconcious to control my body and break my shots at the best time.


jim p said:


> I am 62 years old but high mileage.
> 
> Sonny, your talent over comes many things. $10000 worth of equipment and 10 cents worth of talent wont get a person very far.
> 
> It seems that for me that the higher holding weight forces me to have better alignment and this results in better shooting for me. When I have a low holding weight it is like I just want to squirm around during the shot. A hooter shooter would probably put all the arrows in the same hole no matter what the holding weight.
> 
> I shot for 4 years never knowing where the arrow was going to hit. I would stand looking at the target and wondering what could I have done to cause the arrow to go 4" right or left when I knew that the sights were showing center target.
> 
> During this 4 year period I mainly used a zenith hinge release. I also used a short n sweet trigger release and a hydraulic scat release. I have recently started using the scat release. I like the hydraulic release because all I have to do is release the thumb trigger and wait for about 3 seconds and the release fires. If I keep my pin centered the arrow hits behind the pin. I don't know why the hydraulic release is not more popular. You can't cheat the hydraulic release and it never needs to be manipulated in any way. I do think that the hydraulic release could be made to fit the hand better and some tiny improvements could be made as far as more fine adjustments.
> 
> I had some 1" groups today. Not as many as I would have liked but it appears that I am still making some small improvements.
> 
> So thanks again.


----------



## TNMAN

RCR_III said:


> I just wanted to put some food for thought out on the hydraulic vs non for releases. This takes a different train of thought and a different mental approach to shooting. But if you'll allow yourself to float on target and run your release execution and let things go on auto pilot, the brain sees the motion and what the pin is doing on the target and will move the muscles in the body to fire the release when it sees the desired sight picture and location. That's why I would not want to use a hydraulic release. I want to allow my subconcious to control my body and break my shots at the best time.


Bought the first hyd release (blue handheld) in 1979 and gave it away one week later. Should have thrown it in the River. That thing ate my lunch. Cold days, it was slow; hot days it was FAST. Slow for morning targets and fast for after dinner targets. Not sure why I ever bought it because, 1) it was high dollar for the day, and 2) was already shooting decent field with a Failsafe that I bought from Loyd Napier at a Red River Bowmen shoot. 

The new ones might be better, but I'll never find out. My nerves aren't nearbout good enough to shoot one.


OP may have gotten some conflicting responses in this thread due to a miscommunication. In my mind, "bobbing" is a vertical/up and down only float from top of X to bottom of X....... not the holding low problem finally described. All is well that ends well. Glad you found something to help.


----------



## jim p

Like I said I think that the hydraulic release could be improved. Maybe better fluid that does not change viscosity with temperature and finer adjustments for speed. 

I hear what you are saying about the subconscious mind controlling the shot. I just wonder if this is a way of saying that I am punching the release but I don't know it because it is being done subconsciously. With the hydraulic release all your subconscious mind can do is keep you on target until the release fires. I have let others try the hydraulic release and some will jerk the release 3 times or more before it shoots. Then they look at me like did I just do that. They had no clue that they were command shooting their releases.

I will go back to shooting my hinge in a week or so. It is just fun to use something totally different that you can not cheat. If you slowly release the trigger on the hydraulic release I can guarantee you that you will not have a clue when it is going to fire.


----------



## jim p

I have been shooting my hinge and yesterday I had the best day of shooting in years. Shooting the vegas target I dropped about 4 points in an hour of shooting. It was almost like I could not miss.


----------



## SonnyThomas

:thumbs_up


----------



## dmacey

That's kind of how I feel about my Evolution. It almost feels like cheating because all you have to do is pull and I almost can't make a bad shot with it. The only time I ever fail it, it's because my back tension has collapsed and I start engaging other muscles to heave off the shot (I'm getting better at recognizing that now and letting down instead).

When it comes to bobbing up and down, that usually is a grip issue for me. My PSE has a very low, thin grip and is super super unforgiving of any kind of torquing or pressure in the wrong spot. My problem is usually the dot trying to drop low as I pull through the shot. It's always due to trying to use too high of a grip; if I reposition the handle into the right place just inside the thumb muscle, then it stays put.

If I don't shoot that bow for a while, it can take me not a small number of ends at 20 yards with my bare shafts to get my grip straightened back out. So the grip is really critical, in my experience.

DM


----------

