# scope sinking in peep during execution



## memosteve (Nov 24, 2012)

I've noticed a tendency I have when shooting my Hoyt Podium Elite's, both the 40 and 37... During the last half of my normal shot execution I notice a tendency of the scope to start "sinking" out the bottom of the peep. Enough so that if I don't pay attention to it, it can be as much as the lower part of the scope ring/housing can disappear out the bottom of the peep.

It doesn't start doing this until the last part of my shot sequence and it slowly sinks there, not a sudden drop. Once it shifts a certain amount it seems to stop if I continue with the shot execution.

I've messed with tiller, DL, stabs, and even peep height, creep tuning, etc., but nothing really seems to stop it other than really concentrating on not letting it start by keeping my back half really aggressively engaged. This leads to a less relaxed shot execution and hanging up with my hinges, which I don't like. This happens with all my hinges/button releases no matter how cold/hot.

I've never really noticed this issue before, but I may have only just become recently aware of it as I pay a lot more attention to my float and let down more when the shot breaks down than I used to.

Any thoughts?

Thanks,


----------



## Huntinsker (Feb 9, 2012)

How are you firing your releases? Could you possibly be moving your anchor a little while executing the shot?


----------



## dmacey (Mar 27, 2015)

Could be an alignment issue. I ran into this recently also, though in my case I was pulling the peep down onto the pin from the top. Turns out, I was letting my draw arm drop and I was pulling down through the shot rather than straight back. I corrected it by simply practicing being in good alignment as I pull through the final part of the shot. 

So, something to try, at least. 

DM


----------



## cbmac (May 24, 2006)

I had exactly the same issue. Recognizing the problem was critical - it had probably been going on for months before I realized it. Try lowering the peep a tad.


----------



## wv hoyt man (Feb 17, 2012)

Work on your form.
Shoulders need to be low and in line.


----------



## aread (Dec 25, 2009)

When I do that, it's due to relaxing my back muscles during the anchoring and alignment part of my sequence. My focus shifts from being sure my back is engaged to doing the other things. When I get a little lazy on this, I need to let down and start over. Once tension in the back is lost, it's hard for me to regain it. 

Allen


----------



## cbrunson (Oct 25, 2010)

Usually a dot sinking on execution is a collapse of the bow arm. You could also be pulling slightly up with your release arm. That can be fixed with some alignment adjustment, either by lengthening D-loop, draw length, or opening your stance a bit more. (squaring up to the target, not feet spread)

Make sure you're pulling straight back with your release hand. Even if you use back tension to fire the release, you want your release to go straight back when it fires.


----------



## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

To me this problem is amplified expecially when you try and fix it during the shot and things get worse in a hurry. 

The easy fix is to start using Back Tension Preload before you start your shot. You come to anchor and apply the preload to the system as you settle into your anchor and then it is set, instead of coming to anchor and just touching the wall and then trying to increase it during the shot which you may forget or do to much or to little and then these issues really stand out. 

By doing it as you are settling in you are going to find that it compliments many things including your float pattern being very solid and your firing engine feeling line it just wants to do its job.


----------



## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

The other big issue that can cause this is a high grip, a high grip pushes the bow out and down in front and if you are trying to use a neutral grip that is evenly applied then it is on the edge of being a high grip. 

Now 

If you try and use a low grip then you are on the edge of being neutral and either of them are going to produce way less feelings of dropping out so I would suggest using a low grip and get away from any chance of high grip.

More than likely you have both issues going on the lack of back tension preload and a high grip which are two strikes against you and by eliminating them you are going to be way closer to fixing the problem.


----------



## RCR_III (Mar 19, 2011)

Probably issues with shoulders. The shoulders coming up and you collapsing during the shot. 

If you're having issues keeping the back engaged, you've likely got a shorter d loop than what you actually need. This is causing you to not be able to get the shoulder back enough to engage the back in a manner to hold you at full draw without you feeling forced. 

Quick picture and a drill or two could probably get you in the right spot if you want to email me and get squared away.


----------



## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

By the way, you might want to do it on purpose. I used to have this problem just like you and have since fixed the problem doing the things I mentioned above but back then when it was a part of my shooting I just did it on purpose and set my peep like that and saw where it hit. To my surprise it hit just fine and inside the x every time, so what that did was allowed me to just mentally accept it and not fight it. Fighting it is going to hurt you worse than the peep not being lined up. I think my arrows hit on the bottom of the x when I did this which isn't perfect but you know not being freaked out and stressing out to get it perfect allowed me to shoot really good.

Of course shooting with it lined up is better but there are lessons to be learned here if you let it happen.


----------



## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

You are getting a good checklist of stuff from a variety of people, the key is to mark each one of them off until none of them are adding to the problem. I know for me being a asa shooter I can not shoot out the bottom of 12 rings so this is something that plagued me for a long time and then once I took care of form and execution and preload the problem vanished.


----------



## memosteve (Nov 24, 2012)

I think it's my release arm pulling up on the D-loop...I'm not collapsing the bow arm, and if I concentrate on keeping my release elbow down it doesn't seem as bad.

I also do use a very high grip...Old habit from shooting Oly recurve rigs, which I still do. I might have to play around with adding more to the grip angle of my compounds (already using the max angled grip insert on my PXE's.).

When it happens, and I stick with the shot, I'll either just miss or barely hit the 10. The biggest issue is that I notice it and do something stupid with the shot execution if I don't let down and start over.

I do use a lot of back tension pre-load...I pull evenly with all fingers, click as soon as I anchor (if I shoot a click) and almost instantly start my shot engine which I don't stop until either the arrow is gone or I need to let down due to float going to hell. I don't consciously rotate/manipulate the release, nor do I actively "relax" my index finger to fire...I keep even pressure, pull with back and relax from the elbow down towards my hand.

I think mostly seeing it happen just freeks me out and causes me to start/stop the shot execution on a sub-conscious level if I commit to sticking it out.

I have played with increasing my DL, which helped briefly, but then I ran into serious problems when it came to shooting targets set low. I also tried running a longer D-loop, which felt better, but really made my shot execution run a really long time. 

Just something I've recently started becoming aware of as I try to transition pass being a 298/20X Vegas shooter and fine-tune every last detail to reach the next level...It also can really mess with me during tournaments if I'm just slightly off my game.


----------



## memosteve (Nov 24, 2012)

RCR_III said:


> Probably issues with shoulders. The shoulders coming up and you collapsing during the shot.
> 
> If you're having issues keeping the back engaged, you've likely got a shorter d loop than what you actually need. This is causing you to not be able to get the shoulder back enough to engage the back in a manner to hold you at full draw without you feeling forced.
> 
> Quick picture and a drill or two could probably get you in the right spot if you want to email me and get squared away.


Thanks, Robert.

I do sometimes, especially shooting under pressure/anxiety at tournaments, feel like the bow is taking off on me even though I'm pretty solid/hard into the back wall. It feels like I can't keep totally engaged while relaxing enough for the shot to be smooth...I end up pulling so hard that I have to use the forearm/fingers to stay into the wall which makes for a very stressful shot execution and pulling the bow off line easily. This really only happens to me in very high-stress situations such as shoot-offs...Doesn't really happen during practice or league.

I used to think maybe having a shorter DL was the answer, but that just makes it worse and my sight picture/float is jittery, fast, and sudden big movements outside the gold. Running longer is a definite improvement, but if too long, I have bad misses shooting anything not shoulder level.


----------



## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

Now that you have told me that you are using a high grip I would walk up to a bow and put your hand against the wall with the palm flat against the wall, Now look at your forearm bones as they go into the wrist and you are going to notice that this happens in the very bottom of your hand. In fact now you need to see all the hand that is above the wrist and that there is nothing behind it but air so for you to be using a high grip you are using tons of forearm muscle tension to do the job. 

Once you adopt this type of grip you get bone on bone contact from the grip all the way to the shoulder which is a good thing.


----------



## Honeymonster (Nov 3, 2005)

I'm just gonna throw this in. 
When I was playing with my anchor I found a spot that felt very good and consistent, however due to the relatively large amount of release rotation I use to fire it, my knuckle at some time pushed against my jawbone resulting in the release head to shift slightly upwards in the firing process. The result was that in my sight picture my scope kept diving out of my peepsight, of course what was happening was my peep sight climbing.


----------



## RCR_III (Mar 19, 2011)

It could be either. If you shot me over a picture of you I could help diagnose pretty quickly usually and give some advice.


memosteve said:


> Thanks, Robert.
> 
> I do sometimes, especially shooting under pressure/anxiety at tournaments, feel like the bow is taking off on me even though I'm pretty solid/hard into the back wall. It feels like I can't keep totally engaged while relaxing enough for the shot to be smooth...I end up pulling so hard that I have to use the forearm/fingers to stay into the wall which makes for a very stressful shot execution and pulling the bow off line easily. This really only happens to me in very high-stress situations such as shoot-offs...Doesn't really happen during practice or league.
> 
> I used to think maybe having a shorter DL was the answer, but that just makes it worse and my sight picture/float is jittery, fast, and sudden big movements outside the gold. Running longer is a definite improvement, but if too long, I have bad misses shooting anything not shoulder level.


----------



## ken Johnson (Apr 5, 2007)

If you want to shoot accurately do not try to align your peep with your pin housing, 

Archery is no different then other sport. To prove the point, think about the athlete who make a running catch. To catch the ball as he is running at top speed he does not think of where his feet are landing or how long his stride needs to be. What he does is focus on the ball. His speed is set subconsciously. When he reaches out for the ball he does not aim his hand at the ball. He keep his focus on the ball, and his hand reaches out subconsciously. 

The same is true in archery. The key to shooting accurately is to focus on the target.

There are those who want you to mechanically align your peep and your pin housing while at the same time aligning your pin with your target. That is like telling the ball player to be sure to check to see if his arm is extended far enough while at the same time to be sure to aim his hand at the path of the ball. It just does not work. Yogi Berra.is quoted as saying, How can you hit the ball, when your thinking of hitting the ball. Yogi was a wise man. If you are thinking of aligning your peep with your pin housing and your pin with your target, you will not be able to do either. Instead you will cause tension and target panic.

Then what should you do. Do what other athletes do focus on your target and let your subconscious
align your eye and your pin with your target. The more you focus the quicker and more accurately your eye will center on your peep and your pin will move to your target. Be like all other athletes focus on your target and let your subconscious do the aiming.


----------



## fanio (Feb 1, 2011)

A precision aiming sport needs something more deliberate than a catching or throwing sport. Even if your pin is perfectly aligned with the spot and your execution is good, you will still have misses if your scope and peep alignment is inconsistent from shot to shot. 

Separately, as has happened before when I've asked the same question (I have the same problem and have been unable to find a long term fix for over 3 years), many people seem to confuse the OP's problem with the dot dropping below the spot.


----------



## cbrunson (Oct 25, 2010)

fanio said:


> A precision aiming sport needs something more deliberate than a catching or throwing sport. Even if your pin is perfectly aligned with the spot and your execution is good, you will still have misses if your scope and peep alignment is inconsistent from shot to shot.
> 
> Separately, as has happened before when I've asked the same question (I have the same problem and have been unable to find a long term fix for over 3 years), many people seem to confuse the OP's problem with the dot dropping below the spot.


You are correct. I've had the same issues and focusing on correcting it consisted of improving follow through and release arm alignment. Follow through being a big one. Whether you think about it consciously or not, your body will try to dump the strain on your muscles before the shot goes off. Kinda like dropping your bow arm, only on a much smaller level. You may not feel or even see it.

If your shoulder collapses, even a little on the start of the shot execution, it can force your head to tip back slightly, causing the scope to drop in the peep. It can also just drop the dot if you run short on your DL. The other one, pulling slightly up with your release hand is fairly easy to diagnose once it is brought to your attention. It's also easy to fix. The follow through is a little more difficult to correct.


----------



## PWOODNC (Mar 6, 2005)

Ive been plagued with this same thing for a few years now. It started when I began shooting a hinge. Before, I was a command shooter and never had this problem. I've tried everything mentioned in this thread, changing dl (+ and -), raising and lowering peep, raising and lowering anchor, making sure my shoulders are down. Nothing seems to really fix the situation and I've talked to many others for suggestions and haven't found a cure.

Here's what I've figured out, I'm convinced it has something to do with aiming and what my eyes are seeing in my sight picture. I can set my release very cold, stand close to my target, draw to anchor, aim, then close my eyes and start my release process. After being into the shot for 5 sec or longer (very cold release won't fire), I can open my eyes and sight and peep are aligned, no falling out the bottom. No aiming involved after eyes are closed.

If I completely concentrate on keeping sight and peep aligned while shooting it helps some but I still fight it. shooting suffers because I'm not focusing on aim at all.

Ive tried ignoring it and just aim and shoot, but i will end up shooting low if sight falls out bottom of the peep. It's become bad enough that I've gone back to command shooting. Really no issues when punching and groups and scores are better.

BUT, to me there's no better feeling in archery than a well executed release with a hinge, mini explosion, with the arrow hitting the x or 12. 

I haven't completely given up on the hinge, I still practice with it. Also, all the above applies when I shoot a thumb trigger in the same manner as a hinge.

I'm open to ideas but I'm afraid their is not a quick fix and much of this is mental.

Sorry op, not trying to hi jack your thread but I know your frustrations all to well.


----------



## pwyrick (Feb 13, 2011)

It sounds like this is a fault we all suffer from on occasion. I make the scope appear to drop by slightly pushing my nose into the string. The stronger I get into my back, the more I feel like pushing my nose forward. That drops my eye just a little and the scope appears lower. Probably unique to me, but this is just one more way to make this game harder.


----------



## Leon Garfield (Feb 2, 2008)

When I had this issue it was my release shoulder. When I was drawing my bow I was raising my shoulder, when i got into anchor I was not letting it drop back down as I offloaded into my back. Once I figured this out and started bringing my shoulder back down when I offloaded to my back the issue went away. Also I switched from touching mh nse on the string to using a knot in corner of my mouth as Rio Wilde does. It just feels more natural and for me easier to repeat. These to changes brought me to consistent 300s with 52 to 57 xs......


----------



## subconsciously (Aug 22, 2009)

My wife was having this problem earlier this year (2 time national champ) and all I did was move her peep. Problem solved.

Just sayin.


----------



## Rabbit57 (Jun 15, 2012)

*Subconsciously*
Explain more in-depth and which direction you moved her peep to correct the "southern droop"?

*Leon.* I sent a video of my sequence to Mark Nasi of OK bows in Canada. He said that's what I was doing. He said to increase my D-Loop. So I went from 1/2" to exactly 3/4" long inside-to inside of string to loop, which brought my elbow down 1.5" and shoulder along with it. But I stopped at 3/4". Now with a tiny bit of the "southern droop" that stops at the center bottom of the X-ring. I might very soon try to bring it to 7/8". Look at Kendall Woody's D-Loop. Looks like easily over an inch.


----------



## Leon Garfield (Feb 2, 2008)

That probanly will do it by my worry would be about making draw length to long. In all praticality thats what you are doing. Does your draw feel short with standard D loop? Instead of lengthening D lopp to the length try making your draw a lottle longer. Keep in mimd to long a draw will create other issues. 
My suggestion is to get your length right and mentally focus on dropping your shoulder back down after you draw. It will become second nature after you do it a while.....Keep em straight....

Sent from my LG-E980 using Tapatalk


----------



## Rabbit57 (Jun 15, 2012)

Nope. My 28.5" DL was and is the same as I use a Nitro button like Reo anchored at the very corner of the mouth before and after the D-Loop change. Hasn't move. Only my anchor point has moved further back and my elbow dropped 1.5" which brought my shoulder down. M.Nasi drew a line from bow are to shoulder and you can measure the difference with before and after of a still of the video.

I stand very strait and head up and strait too. I draw strait, and I mean strait back at eye level and slowly bring it all strait down to anchor. I shoot very high wrist almost like a recurve shooter which makes it for me super hard to torque the bow. I let the bow jump forward into the finger sling. I use a Tru-Ball HT.

Not saying I've got this perfectly conquered, but it's way, way better than before. And I do appreciate any good sound advice.

Since changing this I'm constantly hitting 300's with an average of 50X's. Like to get past my best at 56X's though. My first year shooting paper. Started with my league in January.


----------



## Leon Garfield (Feb 2, 2008)

Awesome sounds like its working good for you I just wanted to make sure you werent hurting what you were trying fix. Its nice to make it into consistent 300s. I wont be doing much this winter I had 2 back surgerys in last year and cant shoot my target bow at all right now. Going to start using my hunting bow backed down and hope by the end of winter I can get back to 60 arrows, right now can only shoot 30. 
Theres always something to learn and improve on, back tension took me 4 years to make work but man has it been worth it. Good luck with your shooting....
Keep em straight

Sent from my LG-E980 using Tapatalk


----------



## Rabbit57 (Jun 15, 2012)

Thank you much. I'm trying not to hurt my rotator or other things wrong with my bow shoulder. At 58, problems with shoulder developed long ago from other sources. 

Wish I did this 30 years ago.


----------



## Rabbit57 (Jun 15, 2012)

Leon. Vermont!! I was born in Massachusetts, lived in Maine and New Hampshire till I was 19.

You should use you AT name, Green Mountain Boy


----------



## Leon Garfield (Feb 2, 2008)

Lol, I always use my name in all the forums not sure why just do....

Sent from my LG-E980 using Tapatalk


----------



## 3SixtyOutdoors (Sep 14, 2012)

tag


----------



## possum trapper (Nov 24, 2005)

from my experience sounds like DL is a fuzz long and possible moving or tipping head back slightly while exeucting


----------

