# Converting your Axis riser to accept ILF dovetails



## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Okay, by now everyone knows how much I like my "old" Axis risers. I've tried a bunch, and so far, no other riser has shot as well for me as those old warhorses. Now that I have three of them to play with, I decided I'd try to convert at least one to accept ILF dovetails. Thanks to the good folks down under (on the Aussie forum) for their instructions, and ultimately Jake Kaminski for his courage to manhandle his own Axis riser, I took the plunge.

The original "instructions" I followed were here:

http://glide.net.au/Axisconversion/

However, I couldn't find a machinist that was willing to touch my handles. They were all afraid they would screw something up and didn't want to get sued. I tried to reassure them, but to no avail. I guess I didn't try that hard, since I thought I could probably do this work myself fairly easily. And I was correct on that point. It's not that hard to do.

Using a vise on my workbench (padded of course), I secured each end of the riser so it wouldn't move and was at a comfortable working height. Then I just took the end of a standard hacksaw blade and made a short horizontal cut along the line of the factory slot (that was already in the end of the riser) and another vertical cut at the edge of the new slot. Each cut was only a few mm wide and was done pretty easily by hand. 

I used a regular square file (mill bstd. file) to square up the new, wider slot. 

At this point, I thought I was done, since my new wider slot in the end of the riser looked just like the pictures in the link above. However, once I inserted the conversion dowel and looked closely, I realized this wasn't going to work. The slot needed to be deeper than the original factory slot. 

So I went down to the local hardware store (my second-favorite archery shop!) and bought a carbide-steel cutting bit for my dremel tool. I used that bit to deepen the overall channel enough that the depth matched the depth of the dovetail on the conversion dowel. Then to finish it off, I cut a shallow groove for the pin to follow when I insert the limb. 

To dull the shiny aluminum, I just used a plain black sharpie.

I think it looks pretty good, and it works very well. Once the bow is assembled (and even when it's not) you can't tell it wasn't supposed to be like that.

Anyone wanting me to walk them through this, just PM me and I'll be glad to do it. I know one reason we don't seem more Axis risers these days is because of the limb attachment system, and because the original limb hardware is getting harder and harder to find. That was the reason I converted this one. I only have two sets of original limb bushings and I was getting tired of swapping them whenever I wanted to try out some new limbs. So now I don't have to...

Pictures are available here:

http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=996114

And here is a picture of one of my risers that I have not converted to show the original configuration. Note the factory "channel" leading to the dowel. If your Axis riser already has this (not all of them do I discovered), then it's pretty simple to just widen and deepen it enough to get the dovetail to the replacement dowel.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

I should expand on one point. Of the five Axis risers I've owned, four of them had the factory "slot" or channel leading to the original dowel. However, one of them does not. Not sure if that was a prototype or an early model or what. But if I convert that riser w/o the channel, it will be much more difficult as I will need to remove 6x as much material and there will be no "guide" to help me get started. Not sure if I'm going to do that one, but I may.

So have a look at the riser you have and see which it is. If it has the factory channel, then you're already 2/3 of the way there.

Incidentally, I got my conversion dowels from my good friend Rob at Lancasters. He had a few spares laying around, but I think he can get more. I may be wrong, but these dowels aren't "axis" specific. I'm pretty sure they are the same dowels used on all the newer Hoyt risers these days, so getting more shouldn't be a problem.

John.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

Thanks, limbwalker.

BEFORE photo.











AFTER photo.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Well, not exactly  Those are two different risers, but I wanted to show a comparison so folks would be able to see a "before and after". I forgot to take pictures of the riser I converted before I started on it...

Thanks N&B!

John.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

limbwalker said:


> Well, not exactly  Those are two different risers, but I wanted to show a comparison so folks would be able to see a "before and after". I forgot to take pictures of the riser I converted before I started on it...
> 
> Thanks N&B!
> 
> John.


Nice hand work, John.

Essentially,
you widened the shoulders of the slot,
using hand tools (hack saw)
and a dremel for the slot.

And to think,
the Aussies used a cross slide vise
and a drill press with an end mill.

When I compare pics,
yours and theirs appear near identical.

Very nice work.

Alan


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Well, theirs certainly was more professionally done. However, I'm not certain it would work like that (without deepening the overall channel) unless you had the limb bolts cranked all the way down. Unless the channel is deep enough, you can't adjust the angle of the dowel to accomodate the angle of the limb base when the limb bolts are backed out. 

John.


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## Welshman (Oct 5, 2002)

Soooo... You are saying the adjustment bushings are very hard to find now? Hoyt doesn't have any left? 
Thanks Hoyt. 

Luckily, I have still have enough to keep my limbs aligned. At least Hoyt gave us more than we needed in the first place.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Welshman said:


> Soooo... You are saying the adjustment bushings are very hard to find now? Hoyt doesn't have any left?
> Thanks Hoyt.
> 
> Luckily, I have still have enough to keep my limbs aligned. At least Hoyt gave us more than we needed in the first place.


Actually, I meant the original Axis limb bushings are hard to find these days. The three piece limb hardware. I have two sets (used to have three but I think a student walked off with one years ago...) and can't really find a third. That's one reason I wanted to try this conversion. I actually liked the Axis limb mounting system. I thought it was a great design. However, if you can't get limbs with the necessary bushings, it becomes a liability. This conversion was quite simple to do, and you should be able to get these replacement riser dowels pretty easily. 

Yesterday, I slapped a pair of my Samick Masters in this riser and set it up. The bloody thing tuned perfectly right out of the gate. Bare shaft flew straight into the group at 50 meters. Gotta love it when that happens! 

John.


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## Welshman (Oct 5, 2002)

limbwalker said:


> Actually, I meant the original Axis limb bushings are hard to find these days. The three piece limb hardware. I have two sets (used to have three but I think a student walked off with one years ago...) and can't really find a third. That's one reason I wanted to try this conversion. I actually liked the Axis limb mounting system. I thought it was a great design. However, if you can't get limbs with the necessary bushings, it becomes a liability. This conversion was quite simple to do, and you should be able to get these replacement riser dowels pretty easily.
> 
> Yesterday, I slapped a pair of my Samick Masters in this riser and set it up. The bloody thing tuned perfectly right out of the gate. Bare shaft flew straight into the group at 50 meters. Gotta love it when that happens!
> 
> John.


So Hoyt still sells the washers (don't know why I thought of them as bushings). 
Sorry Hoyt, I recant my sarcastic remark. :zip:

Thanks for the info, John and good luck with those dovetails. :shade:


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## Jim C (Oct 15, 2002)

limbwalker said:


> I should expand on one point. Of the five Axis risers I've owned, four of them had the factory "slot" or channel leading to the original dowel. However, one of them does not. Not sure if that was a prototype or an early model or what. But if I convert that riser w/o the channel, it will be much more difficult as I will need to remove 6x as much material and there will be no "guide" to help me get started. Not sure if I'm going to do that one, but I may.
> 
> So have a look at the riser you have and see which it is. If it has the factory channel, then you're already 2/3 of the way there.
> 
> ...


I have two axis risers John. the original one I bought from JMcK. It did not have the channel. Apparently, the engineers at Hoyt didn't realize that was a problem until someone tried to crank their limbs down. Rumour has it Mike Gerard was one of the first and had to use some sort of power machinery to free his limb. When the angle of the bolt lock up changed the pressure was amazing. As I recall, Hoyt wouldn't remachine the original ones. They work fine if you shoot the limbs on the lightest setting!! I keep it because its an interesting part of the hoyt evolution in machined riser.


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## whiz-Oz (Jul 19, 2007)

CAUTION!!!

The conversion dowels ARE NOT the same as normal ones. You must buy the conversion dowels. These dowels are BLACK. The ones that you have are not the correct ones John, so that's why just the side mod didn't work for you. 

Mr Tekmitchov did explain the difference somewhere but it's got to do with where the limbs will sit on the bottom of the limb adjustment screw.


And the Aussie in question could have done the modification with a dremel if he'd wanted to, but machining the riser took about 5 minutes and did the job perfectly.

And just for interest, the Axis in the original instructions WAS owned by Limbwalker and before that, we don't know....


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Whiz, I wondered about that. But the dowels I got from Rob are indeed black. Maybe that doesn't show up well in the pictures. And I checked to see how the limb seats in the adjustment bolt, and it seats properly. 

Wish I could have visited your machine shop. The chickens around here wouldn't touch the riser. Darn lawsuit-happy country we live in... 

I can see how it would only take a few minutes with the proper tools. Didn't take me many more than that with the Dremel and the cutting bit. I squared up the slot with a file, so it turned out pretty well IMO.

Regardless, the bow shoots great and the limbs fit in nice and tight with a good positive "click" of the dovetail button. 

If good 'ol GT was still frequenting this board, he could no doubt shed some light on the subject. It would be a far better use of his time than slamming archers for dropping shots in competitions he's never qualified for himself... 

John.


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## whiz-Oz (Jul 19, 2007)

Ah, good. That's a relief. They do look rather shiny compared to mine.


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## whiz-Oz (Jul 19, 2007)

And thanks to Don Chiou, here's an unslotted Axis.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Yes, my blue/black Axis (that I recently purchased and like very much) is "unslotted" as well. I'm betting that's an earlier model, but I don't know the history on these risers.

So, Whiz, how do you get yours to work with the black conversion dowels if you have the limb bolts backed out beyond the halfway point? I found that if you only remove the shoulder material and don't deepen the whole channel, that the outward half of the dovetail bushing (the round flange) binds against the riser channel because of the angle you need the dowel to sit at. If you only remove the shoulder material, you can still use it like that, but only if the limb bolts are pretty well cranked down. 

If you look at the pictures of my conversion, you can see the shiny semi-circle where the outward half or third of the dovetail bushing was pressing against the channel in the riser under load. This was my first clue that the channel needed to be deeper if my limb bolts were cranked out (where I normally prefer them because of my long draw). Then I looked with a flashlight too see if the base of the limb was seated against the dowel, and it wasn't. So essentially the dovetail bushing was holding the entire load. That's when I realized the entire channel (or at least the portion where the dovetail bushing rested under load) needed to be deeper so I could adjust the angle of the dowel to suit the angle of the limb base with the bolts turned out.

I went back with the cutting bit on the Dremel tool and deepened the channel in the area where the dovetail sits. Now the limbs are seated against the dowel and the dowel is carrying the load like it should. Not a tough fix really.

Did any of that make sense? 

Are your limb bolts cranked down then?

John.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Had about an hour to tinker with bows this evening, so I figured I'd see if I could convert another Axis riser. This time I decided to convert one without the factory channel. This was a little more difficult, since I had to remove about 5 times as much material, but I figured out a way to make it go pretty smooth. I used a drill bit to drill three parallel holes in the end of the riser - that removed most of the material quickly. Then I cut into those holes with the hacksaw blade and finally I used the Dremel and a square file to remove the rest of the material and shape the channel.

Worked fine. Having the experience from the first riser helped. The pictures below show one limb pocket before the conversion and the other after. 

Total time on this bow - about 45 minutes. Tools were a cordless drill and 1/4" bit, Dremel tool with carbide cutting bit, plain square end metal file (5/8" wide) and the very end of a normal hacksaw blade.

Safety glasses and some patience and planning are a must.

John.


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## dchan (Jun 29, 2004)

sweet.

You Go Limbwalker!

I do machine work and would have done it but looking at the limb pockets, It probably would have taken me that 45 minutes to figure out how to clamp that riser into the mill and get the mating surface level. Then setting up the tools. yada yada yada..


DC


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## whiz-Oz (Jul 19, 2007)

That looks quite the shiznit Limbwalker!

I happen to have aquired the bits for the limb conversion back to the dovetail with my last Axis purchase. I'll have a chance to pop them in and turn the bolt to see what does happen with the dovetail when the limbs are backed out as I'm having no problems. I'm currently running some 46lb limbs at 41lb so they're backed off quite a way.

Good to know that these issues can crop up. Can I steal your photos and add your description to the Axis Conversion web page?


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

> Can I steal your photos and add your description to the Axis Conversion web page?


Certainly. 

I expect if folks simply widen the channel and do not have the overall channel deepened will experience some contact between the dovetail and the riser if they shoot the bow with the limb bolts more than halfway out. At least, that's what I saw. It is a pretty simple fix - just deepen the overall channel slightly and that should relieve the contact and put the full load on the dowel (as it should be). 

I did notice also that the limb is not seating quite as deep on the limb bolt as it had with the dowel/screw attachment (may be what GT was referring to?). I think the center of the dovetail slot is slightly further away from the bolt than on the original dowels. However, because the limb is already slotted to accomodate changes in the limb bolt settings, I don't see this as a real problem. So long as the slot on the limb is good and parallel, the limbs shouldn't move laterally. 

John.


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## rosewood (Jul 18, 2010)

I converted my Axis (with the factory channel) using a slightly different approach. I used the conversion dowels but I did not machine the channel. I used a Dremel with a 1/2" abrasive cylinder to create clearance in the riser for the protruding dovetail "lip" so it could rotate on the dowel and not contact the riser while adjusting the tiller bolt (see post 15 and 19 above). I also used a file to knock off the corners of the channel near the "mouth" of the dowel but this was minor and not over the entire channel length. How do I get the limbs on? I loosen the dowel and rotate it a bit with the "mouth" up. Then I slip the dovetail to the "mouth" and rotate the dowel down with the hex wrench while pushing on the limb. It will go in and snap in place. Then I string the bow and tighten the dowel a bit, unstring it and tighten firmly. To remove the limb: loosen the dowel and reverse direction with the wrench while pulling on the limb. The disadvantage is that mounting and de-mounting is less convenient than straight ILF. I was momentarily afraid that I would not be able to remove the limbs but they came out with just a bit of a jiggle. I suspect that with an Axis without the factory channel a "ramp" would need to be filed on the riser near the dowel "mouth" to create enough clearance for the dovetail to slip in.


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## TomG (Dec 4, 2002)

I am finally wanting to do this to my old riser, however Lancaster just told me they do not have any conversion dowel anymore. Anybody know where I could find a set?

Thanks.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

I have a set I'm not going to use Tom. I got the last three from Rob at Lancasters, and only used two of them. However, I an not aware of any difference between the "conversion dowel" for the Axis and the normal Hoyt alignment dowels. I'm pretty sure any of their dowels would work.

John


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