# Border Hex 7.5 vs Morrison Max 4: 1000FPS Slow Motion



## Pago (Aug 27, 2014)

Serious hooks on that bow.


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## PSUBowhunter (Jul 10, 2006)

Just out of curiosity, what are your opinions on the two sets of limbs?


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## GEREP (May 6, 2003)

Very interesting and thank you for posting. High speed videos are always a fascinating way to see what the naked eye cannot. 

Having said that, I'm not touching this one with a ten foot pole.

I will say that you might want to put your flack jacket on, this is about it get exciting.

:wink:

KPC


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## Ernie80 (Nov 15, 2014)

Hi

Great video. 
Which cam did you use?

Kind regards
Ernie


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## Belicoso (Aug 22, 2006)

Wow
Very interesting.
Curious how the two different bows feel in your hand after the shot regardless of what the slowmo shows?
Thanks


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## Bill 2311 (Jun 24, 2005)

Never owned Morrison limbs but love his risers.
As Covert Hunter owner I can tell you that I found that I had to learn to balance brace height, nock height, and centershot. Brace height set with an eye towards my draw length in relation to recommended draw length of the limbs. Going below 8 GPP on arrow weight also gave me more limb vibration.


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## JParanee (Oct 13, 2009)

Cool video 

Here is a shot reaction video I shot of my new Tempest 19 with Hex 7 limbs 

It's not near as slo motion as the ops but it's telling


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## BarneySlayer (Feb 28, 2009)

GEREP said:


> Very interesting and thank you for posting. High speed videos are always a fascinating way to see what the naked eye cannot.
> 
> Having said that, I'm not touching this one with a ten foot pole.
> 
> ...


YEAH!

Neat video.


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## DDSHOOTER (Aug 22, 2005)

JParanee said:


> Cool video
> 
> Here is a shot reaction video I shot of my new Tempest 19 with Hex 7 limbs
> 
> It's not near as slo motion as the ops but it's telling


You know Joe? The big difference in your video and Ryd video is the weight on the string. I like to just add enough silencer and placement to have very little negative impact on light weight limbs. The first video show them pushing forward of brace and spinning. 
Just my thoughts.
Dan


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## Ernie80 (Nov 15, 2014)

Hi

There are different statements about those few bows with those extremely wobbely / strong swinging limbs. Some say that it has a positive effect on the performance, some say it has no effect because it happens after the arrow has left the bow and the others think it is lost energy that can't be sent into the arrow. 

Kind regards 
Ernie


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## Xcalibur3z (Sep 14, 2015)

Which limbs do you prefer? 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Ernie80 (Nov 15, 2014)

Hi

None of these 2.
We have tested and meassured over 200 bows the last 2-3 years and personally I only shoot the limbs with the by far best efficiency values, the A&H acs.

Kind regards
Ernie


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## Xcalibur3z (Sep 14, 2015)

Haven't heard of them. But now I'll be doing some research 


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## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

Ernie80 said:


> Hi
> 
> None of these 2.
> We have tested and meassured over 200 bows the last 2-3 years and personally I only shoot the limbs with the by far best efficiency values, the A&H acs.
> ...


LOL!!!....The first question I have with that claim is...

Are there 200 bows out there to test cause just off the cuff?....I figure I'd be hard pressed to generate a list of 100 different recurves let alone "Over 200"! :laugh:

It's been my experience that Hex7/7.5 series Border Limbs store more energy per pound of draw and deliver more power per pound than any other limb out there and I've been through a few! LOL!

I've had a 60"/45# Hex7 Covert Hunter that pushed 585gr/13GPP Arrows 172FPS for nearly 40ftlbs of KE.

I currently own a 64"/38# Hex7.5 Covert Hunter that pushes 475gr/12.5GPP Arrows 180fps for over 34ftlbs of KE.

And a Hex7 Tempest I haven't even assembled yet but?....

I could care less if my bow does a happy dance after the arrow leaves the building cause in real time?...it's all over in about 1 second from the time I dump the string.

I'll shoot no other.


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## Chris Hill (Aug 26, 2005)

Watch what an A&H does during a shot. They have good performance but a very unstable limb. They are like noodles. Grab the string at the nock and pull up and down and see how far it moves. Like I said they have good performance but I couldn't shoot one accurately.


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## GEREP (May 6, 2003)

GEREP said:


> I'm not touching this one with a ten foot pole.
> 
> :wink:
> 
> KPC







JINKSTER said:


> LOL!!!....The first question I have with that claim is...
> 
> Are there 200 bows out there to test cause just off the cuff?....I figure I'd be hard pressed to generate a list of 100 different recurves let alone "Over 200"! :laugh:
> 
> ...



Does anyone know where I can find a 20 foot pole?

:wink:

KPC


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## Sauk Mountain (Aug 3, 2015)




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## centershot (Sep 13, 2002)

Interesting, those big hooks sure bounce around after the shot.


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## Jim Casto Jr (Aug 20, 2002)

centershot said:


> Interesting, those big hooks sure bounce around after the shot.


You're not actually seeing what you're seeing... at least I've been told that. The riser isn't rocking back and forth either--it just doesn't happen.

I think it had something to do with low quality cameras, angles, lighting or something. 

By all accounts, Border bows are top quality and high performance bows. I find them very impressive. But you need to know, if you actually see what you think you're seeing in that video there's a chance you will be labeled as a Border hater, accused of having some agenda and may have to suffer much wrath. 

Sorry guys, but just couldn't find my 10 or 20 foot pole.


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## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

Jim Casto Jr said:


> You're not actually seeing what you're seeing... at least I've been told that. The riser isn't rocking back and forth either--it just doesn't happen.
> 
> I think it had something to do with low quality cameras, angles, lighting or something.
> 
> ...


Do tell.


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## GEREP (May 6, 2003)

Jim Casto Jr said:


> You're not actually seeing what you're seeing... at least I've been told that. The riser isn't rocking back and forth either--it just doesn't happen.
> 
> I think it had something to do with low quality cameras, angles, lighting or something.
> 
> ...












:wink:

KPC


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## Borderbows (Apr 4, 2009)

Kpc.... beleave your eyes on that string... LOL. Beleave the string ACTUALLY does that i will LOL at you!


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## Jim Casto Jr (Aug 20, 2002)

Hey centershot,

I won't say I told you so. 


But.... see there... from the manufacturer himself. You don't see what you think you see.


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## Ernie80 (Nov 15, 2014)

Hi

I know that there are by far no tradbows that store as much energy as the ch, we already meassured 7 of them in different #. But there are many with a (much) better efficiency value and I am wondering if the wobbeling is the key. I know that with that much stored energy it is much more difficult to get a high efficiency.

Kind regards
Ernie


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## GEREP (May 6, 2003)

Jim Casto Jr said:


> Hey centershot,
> 
> I won't say I told you so.
> 
> ...





:wink:

KPC


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## Borderbows (Apr 4, 2009)

Explain that string then...

Ill sit back and watch your explainations then...


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## 4nolz (Aug 17, 2011)

Interesting video Red.Sorry to hear of your untimely death.:zip:


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## Jim Casto Jr (Aug 20, 2002)

Borderbows said:


> Explain that string then...
> 
> Ill sit back and watch your explainations then...


If you're addressing me, I already answered your question. Perhaps you missed it. *"...You don't see what you think you see."*


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## Borderbows (Apr 4, 2009)

Who knows where this arrow went....


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## Sauk Mountain (Aug 3, 2015)

Borderbows said:


> View attachment 5617465
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Probably right where it was pointed.


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## centershot (Sep 13, 2002)

Good grief, I'm scared to shoot any of my bows after seeing those pics.....

After re-watching the original video the strings appear to have about the same oscillations on the two bows. Sure can see a difference in how much the limb tips move though. Not saying it's good or bad, it just is.


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## T Longstreet (Jun 26, 2016)

You don't see what you think you see.

It is called the rolling shutter effect, google it.


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## centershot (Sep 13, 2002)

Borderbows said:


> Explain that string then...
> 
> Ill sit back and watch your explainations then...


Here's my shot at the string thing..........I think that photo was taken at the exact time that the arrows out accelerates the string (slightly beyond brace height?). There must be a nanosecond where the string becomes slack before the limbs catch up and settle back to brace. Seems that this should be common to all bows at that exact moment. I do believe the pics shown are extreme cases and of poorly tuned or extremely plucked shots. Could be wrong will be waiting for Sid's explanation.


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## moog5050 (Oct 23, 2012)

For what it's worth, I own max4s, uukha xcurve and 7.5 hex all between 49-50lbs at my DL. Shooting 13-14gpp arrows as I always do hunting, all three sets are very well mannered, quiet and not any more felt post shot vibe than my black widow pchx. They are all quiet too Perhaps the heavy arrows and my favorite mountain muffler strings help, but I really don't feel anything like you see in that video for either limb. Try a conventional recurve and I bet it looks similar if filmed the same. 

That's my experience. No agenda.


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## Easykeeper (Jan 2, 2003)

T Longstreet said:


> You don't see what you think you see.
> 
> It is called the rolling shutter effect, google it.


Yep, at least in regards to the string photos above. I have no comment on the original videos.


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## playerb (Oct 21, 2015)

T Longstreet said:


> You don't see what you think you see.
> 
> It is called the rolling shutter effect, google it.


Yup. There is a big difference measuring high speed objects with a rolling shutter and a global shutter. 

Which I believe was previously mentioned on jinks slow mo video during the debate about the ch riser flexing. No doubt your seeing some rocking in the OP's post. I would have to think that has more to do with hand pressure and grip on the riser (+ no stab) and very little to do with the SC limb vibration. All Sid is saying is that unless you're using a very high end global shutter camera, you are going to have some artifacts show up that aren't actually happening when filming something as fast as limb and string movement. 

As for the limb flutter... border hex 7+ have a very long limb to string contact at brace. Take that length and the direction the tips are moving in relation to the force from the string, plus the high stored energy and you're going to get some post shot tip movement. I don't think there is anyway around it. A bigger curve is going to flutter more than a smaller one. I don't believe Sid has ever argued they don't flutter. If you don't like the feel, don't shoot a border. 

I think joe has pretty clearly shown in his videos that with the correct tuning the hex series limbs can be very quiet and the limb flutter can be minimized. 

Anyways... I'm just counting down the days (9 weeks I think) until my Ch arrives so I can find out for myself.


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## GEREP (May 6, 2003)

T Longstreet said:


> You don't see what you think you see.
> 
> It is called the rolling shutter effect, google it.


T:

I don't know a lot about cameras and photography but I was under the impression that "rolling shutter" had to do with still shots or from extracting a single frame out of a video. That would explain the wierd effects in still photos. As far as the full hi speed videos go, what you see is pretty much what's happening. We know this because we see it in some videos showing multiple bows being shot at the same time. Same hi speed video, same lighting, same everything. One limb flutters violently and the other does not.

KPC


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## 4nolz (Aug 17, 2011)

Whatever the method if its used for 2 bows its still relative.


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## GEREP (May 6, 2003)

Here is the video I was referring to. The bow in the middle flutters wildly while the bow on the right shows virtually no limb flutter at all. Unless we are to assume that "rolling shutter" is selective with its victims, I think we can assume that what we are seeing is indeed what is happening. 

KPC


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## Borderbows (Apr 4, 2009)

Rolling shutter effect video too.

As i said before in previous threads. Its a frequency thing.
For example.
As a car speeds up. You can actually see the wheels slow down., stop. And go backwards.
That is because of a speed thing. The rotation of whe wheels becomes the same as the flicker of the lights. Then unsyncs itself as the car accelerates.

Rolling shutter effect us exactly the same. The frame rate, the shutterspeed and moving object all effect when you finally see.

Have a look at the guitar videos on youtube and you will see movies of the rolling shutter.


Limb flutter is also a grip pressure thing.


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## BarneySlayer (Feb 28, 2009)

I don't think there's a whole lot of debate that a limb that extends further beyond the fulcrum created by the string lift point further from the tip will move more at the tips.

If you want to steer it back into relevance, you need to get back into the topic of..

SO WHAT?

If it bothers somebody, they're free to use something else. We, have choices, I think


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## GEREP (May 6, 2003)

You're exactly right Barney. I don't think it's a matter of being bothered, it's just a matter of people discussing something they observed.

As to the "SO WHAT," an argument could be made that anything that happens to the limb tips after the arrow is gone, in terms of oscillation and deflection, can also happen when the arrow is still on the string. 

Any discussion like that is useless however, as long as there are those that continue to insist that it's really NOT happening, it's just a camera thing...and then attempt to explain why it IS happening. They have no problem explaining why it's happening with other brands, but not theirs. 



KPC


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## Borderbows (Apr 4, 2009)

Kpc. Why dont you want to discuss the other video i posted last time you started this.
Where the bow doesnt exhibit the vibes your concerned over. Where the camera was a 90deg different to this one.

Ill post the link again if you can remember it. Though i think ive posted it 2xs for you already

Or why dont you add balance to the conversation by looking AGAIN at the W&W video where it shows all brands of limbs (at the time) flapping around like seagull wings on a windy day taken on a compitent quality camera.

Or does that not suit where you want this conversation to go?


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## Borderbows (Apr 4, 2009)

Just for fits and giggles. Here it is again for you






Click on them and you can watch the video...

And also the win&win video

https://youtu.be/aq8uoY_o-ps




There is only one reason for the popcorn!


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## Borderbows (Apr 4, 2009)

Just for fits and giggles. Here it is again for you



http://s1097.photobucket.com/user/Borderbows/media/slomohex7.5_zpstybbn0t4.mp4.html



http://s1097.photobucket.com/user/Borderbows/media/normalmohex7.5_zpsogcw7fsn.mp4.html


Click on them and you can watch the video...

And also the win&win video

https://youtu.be/aq8uoY_o-ps




There is only one reason for the popcorn!


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## GEREP (May 6, 2003)

Sid:

Just to be polite, and save you a lot of typing time, I'll repeat what I told you months ago. I have no intention of *EVER* responding to you again. 

Therefore, please refrain from any further questions directed at me. You will only be wasting your time. No matter how you attempt to goad me, I will not engage with you. 

KPC


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## Borderbows (Apr 4, 2009)

There is more than one irony in your reply.

Me goading you. If you dont want to see what i say. There is the ignore function


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## Borderbows (Apr 4, 2009)

There is a simply way of not getting a reaction out of me, KPC. Leave my product alone with your negative infatuation.

I have no interest in interacting with you. So stay out my way and i wont be in your way... 
So while you are trying to be negative. I will be addressing you.

I wont respect your request if you dont respect mine.


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## Ryddragyn (Jan 28, 2012)

For what it's worth, I made this video just out of my own curiosity about the super recurve concept. It wasn't intended to slander any product or person. Just an objective data point from someone who doesn't own either bow. Whether the flapping seen is due to low dynamic efficiency or tiller imbalance due to grip (or both? or some other factor?), I can't say for sure. But I do stand by my camera work. And since I'm good friends with the owners of both bows, I look forward to filming them some more as time goes by. Perhaps the flapping will get resolved through tuning of the bow or the technique. 

Also, I like the feel of both the Border and Morrison limbs, for different reasons. The Morrison feels like a high end conventional recurve limb. The Borders are totally different.


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## centershot (Sep 13, 2002)

Here's a thought - Modern compounds are going the opposite direction with their limbs and overall lengths. Much for the reason as demonstrated in the video, limb vibration and as dead of a feel after the shot as they can achieve. They have gone parallel or beyond parallel to have the limbs spring away from the grip. The limbs on a traditional bow all spring forward. Least spring, limb tip travel distance from a longbow, most a super recurve. I wonder if there is a way to reduce this forward feel? If the limbs were designed to spring more away from the grip instead of forward of it? Something that looks like a recurve strung backwards? With new modern materials something like that may be possible. How is that for thinking outside the box? lol.


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## BarneySlayer (Feb 28, 2009)

GEREP said:


> You're exactly right Barney. I don't think it's a matter of being bothered, it's just a matter of people discussing something they observed.
> 
> As to the "SO WHAT," an argument could be made that anything that happens to the limb tips after the arrow is gone, in terms of oscillation and deflection, can also happen when the arrow is still on the string.


I suppose you could make that argument, though it doesn't seem to be supported either by any video we've seen yet, any mechanism suggested by physics, or any data of which I know. 

Those oscillations arise because the string exerts a stopping force at brace at a point that becomes a fulcrum for the limb portion that extends beyond that point. You have created a longer lever. Longer lever has more leverage. Longer lever will move more at the end point with a given amount of angular movement. Longer lever will oscillate at a lower frequency (like a pendulum), and as such, even if the energy level is _equal,_ the same residual energy will more more physical distance, and to an observer that is not paying very close attention to detail, and doing the math, may look like there is _more_ energy from vibration left in the limbs. If you look at the high speed video, you do not see oscillations until after the bow hits brace height and the arrow is on its way.

If you wanted to get rid of the tip oscillations, you could have an extended riser with pads that catch the limb tips. But, aside from looking even more surreal, you could open up other issues, which could turn into a real mess. You could also mess with limb geometry, going towards more conventional recurve, or better yet, to longbow limbs, _if minimizing after the shot limb tip oscillation distance was your objective_. Of course, this doesn't actually change the fact that the energy from the limbs suddenly stopping has to go somewhere, it only changes the distribution and timing of movement, making it less visually obvious. Like I said, we have options.



> Any discussion like that is useless however, as long as there are those that continue to insist that it's really NOT happening, it's just a camera thing...and then attempt to explain why it IS happening. They have no problem explaining why it's happening with other brands, but not theirs.


Can you find me a quote of what you're referring to? There is such a thing as the aforementioned rolling shutter, which isn't really the case with video, but more relevant, aliasing and resolution limitations in terms of the time domain, where the frequency of oscillating motion exceeds the effective sample rate, though a limb tip oscillating fast enough to challenge the temporal resolution of 1000 fps would be pretty nasty from an audible perspective, though if you're talking 30-60 fps video, that wouldn't be implausible.


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## BarneySlayer (Feb 28, 2009)

centershot said:


> Here's a thought - Modern compounds are going the opposite direction with their limbs and overall lengths. Much for the reason as demonstrated in the video, limb vibration and as dead of a feel after the shot as they can achieve. They have gone parallel or beyond parallel to have the limbs spring away from the grip. The limbs on a traditional bow all spring forward. Least spring, limb tip travel distance from a longbow, most a super recurve. I wonder if there is a way to reduce this forward feel? If the limbs were designed to spring more away from the grip instead of forward of it? Something that looks like a recurve strung backwards? With new modern materials something like that may be possible. How is that for thinking outside the box? lol.


I thinking your description is pretty accurate. Compound bows not only can go opposite/parallel, such that if they are reasonably timed, the forces can balance each other, such that the experience is fairly dead, but they also have far less limb/cam movement for the amount of string travel, which means greater efficiency, and less energy put into the limbs to start with.

I have no realistic good suggestions as far as how to improve traditional bows, in this regard. Most direct route would be... turn them into parallel-limb compound bows


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## BarneySlayer (Feb 28, 2009)

Ryddragyn said:


> For what it's worth, I made this video just out of my own curiosity about the super recurve concept. It wasn't intended to slander any product or person. Just an objective data point from someone who doesn't own either bow. Whether the flapping seen is due to low dynamic efficiency or tiller imbalance due to grip (or both? or some other factor?), I can't say for sure. But I do stand by my camera work. And since I'm good friends with the owners of both bows, I look forward to filming them some more as time goes by. Perhaps the flapping will get resolved through tuning of the bow or the technique.
> 
> Also, I like the feel of both the Border and Morrison limbs, for different reasons. The Morrison feels like a high end conventional recurve limb. The Borders are totally different.


Thank you for making the video. While there may be some unnecessary sparks, I think it's an interesting topic of discussion. Physics is Phun


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## GEREP (May 6, 2003)

http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=4614673




BarneySlayer said:


> Can you find me a quote of what you're referring to?



It was all hashed out in the attached thread. First we were told that the limb flutter was just a camera anomaly, then it was a limb timing thing when the video was posted that shows all three. 

I'm just not sure why so many people refuse to acknowledge that the large amount of limb flutter is just the nature of the beast. 

KPC


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## BarneySlayer (Feb 28, 2009)

GEREP said:


> http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=4614673
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Okay, different thread. The link didn't work for me, but I have a vague recollection 

At this point, might be a better thing just dropped. I don't think anybody is arguing anymore that there isn't post shot limb movement in any kind of recurve limb.


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## GEREP (May 6, 2003)

www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=4614673

Here's that thread again if you're interested. 

KPC


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## bobnikon (Jun 10, 2012)

So the best part of the whole counter argument citing rolling shutter and all those other wonderful phenomenon is that none of those effects CREATE movement. The point of rolling shutter is that as it scans the image it catches the string, in all of Sid fine examples, in different positions of its ACTUAL path. So, yeah, we all realize the string doesn't travel the path in that manner, but it DOES travel the path. So, while I am sure some of the excess movement can absolutely be tuned out of those limb tips, they ARE travelling the path. Another fine example of a strong argument that does absolutely nothing to support the premise, but if you say it often enough people might get tired of arguing, and you will win by attrition.

Cool video.


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## Xcalibur3z (Sep 14, 2015)

I don't understand why we care what they do after the shot. As long as it feels good in hand and the arrow goes where you want it I'm not really sure the argument? Speed and accuracy is all I care about. Accuracy over speed but you get he point. KE and penetration come second to being able to hit your mark. Sounds like a bunch of Wheel Bow shooters arguing 7 fps lol. I think they are all great limbs or people wouldn't be paying $800-$1000 a pair. If anyone doesn't like the movement of their limbs send them this way.  


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## GEREP (May 6, 2003)

Xcalibur3z said:


> I don't understand why we care what they do after the shot.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I don't think anyone cares what happens after the shot but as was mentioned before, if a limb tip is capable of that type of oscillation and deflection after the arrow leaves, could it not be equally susceptible to deflection from a poor release or hand torque etc., before the arrow leaves?

It was also mentioned earlier that just by heeling one's grip improperly, it adversely affects the limb timing and causes increased limb flutter and the rocking of the riser. If this is true, doesn't it speak to forgiveness and how the a certain limb will react to inevitable archer error? What effect does a poor release cause? Or lateral torque on the grip? 

I don't know the answers to the questions, but that doesn't mean the questions aren't legitimate and worthy of discussion. 

KPC


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## moog5050 (Oct 23, 2012)

KPC

You are opening lots of questions for discussion but it's all hypothetical until you shoot the limbs. Try them and you can answer your questions without needing to speculate. I find all the super recurve limbs (own or have owned Morrison, uukha, border and zipper) to be as accurate and forgiving as any conventional limb I have shot. It did take me a while to stop overdrawing with them as it's very easy to do with the flat DFC. But after getting accustomed to lack of any stack they truly are pleasurable to shoot.


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## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

moog5050 said:


> KPC
> 
> You are opening lots of questions for discussion but it's all hypothetical until you shoot the limbs. Try them and you can answer your questions without needing to speculate. I find all the super recurve limbs (own or have owned Morrison, uukha, border and zipper) to be as accurate and forgiving as any conventional limb I have shot. It did take me a while to stop overdrawing with them as it's very easy to do with the flat DFC. But after getting accustomed to lack of any stack they truly are pleasurable to shoot.


Well said! :thumbs_up

I used to *"Speculate Too The Negative"* relentlessly...and did so for a few years...until I bought and tried a set of Borders Hex7.5 ILF limbs and experienced what they are all about and got to know them.

That was 6 months ago...I now own (2) Borders Hex Limbed Bows...




















and couldn't be happier!


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## GEREP (May 6, 2003)

moog5050 said:


> KPC
> 
> You are opening lots of questions for discussion but it's all hypothetical until you shoot the limbs. Try them and you can answer your questions without needing to speculate. I find all the super recurve limbs (own or have owned Morrison, uukha, border and zipper) to be as accurate and forgiving as any conventional limb I have shot. It did take me a while to stop overdrawing with them as it's very easy to do with the flat DFC. But after getting accustomed to lack of any stack they truly are pleasurable to shoot.


Moog:

I have shot the hex limbs but nothing above the 6.5. Were they nice? Yes. Were they nice for me? Not particularly. I'm just not a fan of the way they feel. Personal preference. 

As to speculation, what the limbs are doing is obvious. That's not speculation. I don't have to shoot them to see that. What effect it has is open to discussion, just like literally everything else we discuss on these boards. It's what we do. If you think this discussion is bad, you apparently weren't around when short ILF hunting risers hit the market, or single bevel broadheads, or...

For what it's worth, I have known 3 people in my circle of archers that have owned SR limbs (Including the Hex 6.5's mentioned above), all 3 have sold them and gone back to conventional recurve limbs. 

It's the latest rage, it will be discussed until it's white hot and something new will come along and it will level off. 15 years ago it was Adcock vs the world, then it was DAS vs the world, then it was single bevel vs the world, then it was Hoyt Formula vs the world, now its Border vs the world. Wash, rinse, repeat. 

KPC


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## moog5050 (Oct 23, 2012)

KPC

You raise questions about foregivness, poor release, torque. The questions themselves seem to suggest that a conventional limb is better in this regard, which is not my experience. Maybe that's not your intention or you are looking to spark discussion. I prefer to shoot the limbs and find out for myself rather than speculate. To each his own. I have no loyalty to any manufacturer. I just want to shoot what works best for me. I still love my pchx but am very much enjoying the super recurves too.


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## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

moog5050 said:


> KPC
> 
> You raise questions about foregivness, poor release, torque. The questions themselves seem to suggest that a conventional limb is better in this regard, which is not my experience. Maybe that's not your intention or you are looking to spark discussion. I prefer to shoot the limbs and find out for myself rather than speculate. To each his own. I have no loyalty to any manufacturer. I just want to shoot what works best for me. I still love my pchx but am very much enjoying the super recurves too.


I'm with you every word of the way moog! 

Just the other day I was getting a chuckle reading these opinion based speculations suggesting that the after shot SR limb flutter is something that's suggestive of possible pre-closure stability issues with SR limb tips as I grabbed the tip of my 38# Hex7.5's and attempted to physically twist it braced at static?...I was reminded of that fateful time in history when just some (but not all) longneck beer bottles had twist-off caps and some didn't...cause the tip of my 38#/Hex7.5 didn't budge...not one ioda....as in?...might as well been trying to twist a champagne glass off it's stem! LOL! 

So let the speculators speculate cause some folks just love spinning up a great horror story where "opinion based speculation"?...finds it's home soundly in...

"The Fiction Dept." :laugh: 

On another note?...for some reason a moment at TBOF a few years back came to mind where some smiling elderly archer joined a friend and myself for a round on the 3D course...His bow was a model I'd not seen before nor was I familiar with...it was a grayling green Bear longbow with a very prominent D-when strung profile...the kind you look at and know..."That thing ain't got a degree of reflex in it!"...very HH'ish in profile...his arrows?...resembled fletched lodge poles...and his first arrow loosed from this 35# longbow?...I hadta do my best to hold back LOL as his arrow flew like a scud missile and I could've counted to 3 (and in no rush) before his arrow reached it's mark 15yds away and?...he spanked us both like redheaded stepchildren! :laugh:

My point?...we can't buy skill...but when it comes to bows?...we can buy performance and the SR limbs deliver soundly in that dept!


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## grantmac (May 31, 2007)

For the shooting I do SR limbs don't offer any benefit and indeed have some major negatives.
No free lunch.


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## Sauk Mountain (Aug 3, 2015)

grantmac said:


> For the shooting I do SR limbs don't offer any benefit and indeed have some major negatives.
> No free lunch.


I was in Burlington the other day and could have brought you a flame suit to wear if I knew you were gonna make a statement like that one. 


*Patiently awaits the incoming multi paragraph, overly punctuated and *bolded* word post with 17 embedded youtube videos*


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## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

Sauk Mountain said:


> I was in Burlington the other day and could have brought you a flame suit to wear if I knew you were gonna make a statement like that one.
> 
> 
> *Patiently awaits the incoming multi paragraph, overly punctuated and *bolded* word post with 17 embedded youtube videos*


Well?...don't hold your breath! :laugh:

I'm done with all that...I'm starting to realize what the many characters in these forums are and aren't and that?...I don't much care what others think they (or I) like anymore...I found the bows I love and there's nothing that could be said to change that.


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## Breathn (Jun 12, 2005)

I for some reason find my hex -max 4 type limbs more forgiving than my conventional limbs .I seem to get less Lefts and rights and I attribute it to the feel and being able to really settle in a get good alignment and anchor..but I'm sure everyone has different opinions


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## BarneySlayer (Feb 28, 2009)

Sauk Mountain said:


> I was in Burlington the other day and could have brought you a flame suit to wear if I knew you were gonna make a statement like that one.
> 
> 
> *Patiently awaits the incoming multi paragraph, overly punctuated and *bolded* word post with 17 embedded youtube videos*


In my opinion, totally valid, properly qualified statement.

Nothing is truly one size fits all. I wish there wasn't a need to force things into all or nothing.

As far as extrapolating what it could mean, I think it is more effective to see what it does mean, or rather, what it does in fact do.

In terms of 'foregivness', I think this depends very much on application, including the shooter. Try and see.

In terms of impacting efficiency, this can be measured.


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## grantmac (May 31, 2007)

Sauk Mountain said:


> I was in Burlington the other day and could have brought you a flame suit to wear if I knew you were gonna make a statement like that one.
> 
> 
> *Patiently awaits the incoming multi paragraph, overly punctuated and *bolded* word post with 17 embedded youtube videos*


PM me next time and I'll show you my Nomex collection.


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## Sauk Mountain (Aug 3, 2015)

grantmac said:


> PM me next time and I'll show you my Nomex collection.


I'd love to see it!


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## Xcalibur3z (Sep 14, 2015)

GEREP said:


> I don't think anyone cares what happens after the shot but as was mentioned before, if a limb tip is capable of that type of oscillation and deflection after the arrow leaves, could it not be equally susceptible to deflection from a poor release or hand torque etc., before the arrow leaves?
> 
> It was also mentioned earlier that just by heeling one's grip improperly, it adversely affects the limb timing and causes increased limb flutter and the rocking of the riser. If this is true, doesn't it speak to forgiveness and how the a certain limb will react to inevitable archer error? What effect does a poor release cause? Or lateral torque on the grip?
> 
> ...


Fair enough, I get where you're coming from. Me, personally I like the ins and outs of archery but that's just more than I care to contemplate lol. I'm beyond happy with my new X Tours on the Satori. Got it setup today and it's just incredible. Not sure I'll ever want anything else but I'd sure love to try some of those shepherd hooks out. Cheers 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## LuisLeon (Feb 23, 2015)

JINKSTER said:


> Well?...don't hold your breath! :laugh:
> 
> I'm done with all that...I'm starting to realize what the many characters in these forums are and aren't and that?...I don't much care what others think they (or I) like anymore...I found the bows I love and there's nothing that could be said to change that.


Jinks, I personally couldn't afford or even liked some of the bows you have written about. But I do very much appreciate your enthusiasm and passion for archery. So what if you have your favorites? Here's to you keeping that passion whatever bow/bows you may be shooting now or in the future. To me you are the "Casanova" of bows... you have taken many to the party and are finally in love, good for you.


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