# What recurves are good bows for beginners?



## Dave T

Martin has been making traditional archery stuff for a good many years. PSE is primarily a compound maker who offers some recurves, most of which are imported and not that well made.

I think most here would say the Martin is superior to either of the PSEs.

Dave


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## LBR

For a bow in your price range, I'd look at Samick--primarily the Red Stag td and one-piece, as long as your draw length is 29" or less.

Chad


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## Eldermike

I have a Jaguar TD in my collection. It's a good shooter. It's has caused me to consider using it this year hunting. It's not going to be easy leaving a Tomhawk longbow at home, and walking out the door with a Jag TD, but the way it shoots that's where it's headed.


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## Jamesw

You might look at some of the Samick recurves that Lancaster archery offers as well.They have models that will come in within your budget.The newer models are much better than some of the bows in past years.The quality and designs are better and are still priced to be had by guys with tight budgets.


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## trapperDave

Ben Pearsons, Bears, York, Martins,,,all good and all can be had on ebay for under 100. Shop around you can find a couple for a 100 total  and stay light!


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## Viper1

octacon -

There are so few "bad" bows out there, that's it hard to make a call or recommendation. The only real "gotcha" on entry level bows usually draw length related. Some "stack" (increase weight at an accelerated rate) earlier. The PSE Impala (made by Ragim in Italy) is a good entry level bow, but will get difficult to tune over 29/30". Obviously that's not an issue if you have a 27" draw. The Martin Hunters, while a great shooter, has a similar problem.

Basic rule of thumb on a first bow is: go longer than you expect (re: stacking issue), lighter in weight (so the weight doesn't factor in to your learning how to shoot) and less expensive than you can afford (like it or not, there WILL be other bows in the future).

Most important thing is find something that meets the above criteria and appeals to YOU on some gut level. "Vintage" bows can be a real good staring point and most new folks are amazed at how well they measure up to some of today's higher $$$ offerings.

Viper1 out.


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## otacon122

Yeah...I'm looking at a 45# Martin Jaguar Takedown, mainly for its price ($140 USD), its durability, and its carry weight of only 2 pounds 12 ounces. I want to keep the total carry weight of the bow, arrows, and other gear as light as possible in case I have to stalk the animal instead of waiting for it to come to me. Here is the full kit I am looking at:

Martin Jaguar Takedown Recurved Bow
Martin Cedar Hunting Arrows - 10 grains per inch, 30 inches total
100-grain RedHead Blackout fixed-blade broadheads
Deluxe Traditional Arm Guard
Beaver Hide Silencer
Neet Back Quiver
Traditional BearHair Elevated Arrow Rest
Neet Bow Stringers
Traditional Shooting Glove
Smithy's Broadhead Sharpener
RedHead True Fit Camo Long-Sleeve T-Shirt
RedHead SilentHide Camo BDU Pants
Hunter Orange ballcap

My goal is to be able to hunt and kill animals without the need for a blind or other tree stand - I want to be able to stalk and kill my dinner like ancient peoples did, so I can't carry large amounts of gear nor can the gear I carry be very heavy (I am hoping to keep the total carry weight below 20 pounds).

Other than that, my other goal in archery is to be able to re-create ancient battles - show the world how ancient peoples lived (I am talking the Bronze Age and before time frame).


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## Viper1

octacon -

You might be over-thinking the light-in-the-hand thing. Typically the lighter the bow, the less pleasant it will be to shoot and the less stable to hold (a lot of variance there, based on bow design). While not show stoppers, probably not the best to learn on. After several thousand (or more) arrows down range, you'll have a better idea of what will really work. Sorry, can't help ya with the re-enactment stuff.

Viper1 out.


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## Dave T

otacon122 said:


> Other than that, my other goal in archery is to be able to re-create ancient battles - show the world how ancient peoples lived (I am talking the Bronze Age and before time frame).


This isn't meant as criticism so please don't take it that way. I am curious why you are considering a modern, take-down recurve when your interest is in Bronze Age history? Self wood long and flat bows or the earliest recurves (Turkish, Hun, etc.) would seem to be more in keeping with your interest.

Also, as Viper indicated longer and lighter is always better to learn on. 45# is generally considered a bit much for a beginning archer. Start with something in the 30#-35# range. Learn proper form and technique. Then you can graduate to any weight you want with practice and that proper foundation.

Dave


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## otacon122

I don't plan on doing the re-creation stuff until after I become proficient with recurved bows. I am starting out with a long and light modern recurved to learn on then I may graduate to something more authentic. The reason for the 45# draw is because I want enough resistance that I can build up strength as I use it but I also want it easy enough to draw that I don't get worn out after just a few arrows, and the 45# draw seems to fill both of those categories. I am 6'2" tall and I weigh in at 150lbs, most of which is muscle. I tested my draw distance on a 50lb longbow and was only able to pull back about 21 inches, so for my goal of a 27 or 28 inch draw, I was told I needed to start with a 40 or 45 pound draw on a recurve, and the Martin Jaguar TakeDown does not come in anything less than a 45. The 60 inch length of the Jaguar TakeDown should be adequate for my intentions.

Mark


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## Viper1

octcon -

Sorry, but you may have a few misconceptions going on. Your draw length is what it is, based on your form and choice of anchor. At 6'2", the odds are your draw length will be considerably longer than 28", once your form settles. 

If you couldn't get a 50# bow passed 21", then a 45# is way too much. It has nothing to do with what you "can" pull", and everything with what you can learn to shoot with. Also remember that, the longer your draw, the heavier the bow, so a 45# bow at 28" may be a 50# at 30". 

It really is a better idea to learn to shoot before you get into the hunting part. Just makes life easier.

Viper1 out.


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## otacon122

I asked Martin themselves for a quote on a custom Jaguar TakeDown made of Oak or Maple as the core and Bone or Sinew as the outer shell with a Cedar riser (the reason for Cedar as the riser is because cedar is much smoother to the feel than the other woods and because its a natural bug repellant) with the thing tuned for 25 to 35 yards against deer and other medium game as well as having the riser tapped for an elevated rest and sights if I want to use them. I told them I wanted it at 45# draw with 28 inch draw length (my actual draw length should be somewhere around 30 to 32 inches, but I want to stick with 28 until I get my form worked out) and I told them I wanted to use Martin Cedar Arrows with 100-grain broadheads. I am still waiting for a response back from them, however. Bass Pro said that at 45# draw weight with 28 inch draw length, a 400-grain arrow will still have enough penetration power at 30 yards to clean-kill deer and other small and medium game.


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## Warbow

otacon122 said:


> I told them I wanted it at 45# draw with 28 inch draw length (my actual draw length should be somewhere around 30 to 32 inches, but I want to stick with 28 until I get my form worked out) and I told them I wanted to use Martin Cedar Arrows with 100-grain broadheads. I am still waiting for a response back from them, however. Bass Pro said that at 45# draw weight with 28 inch draw length, a 400-grain arrow will still have enough penetration power at 30 yards to clean-kill deer and other small and medium game.


You have a misunderstanding. If you have a draw length of 30-32 inches you need to get a bow that will pull smoothly to that draw length. If you can't pull a bow all the way back the answer is not to short draw to the weight you can pull but to get a lighter bow with a weight you can pull to your full DL. You are absolutely not going to get the right bow if you tell people the wrong specs, like 45# at 28" if you have a DL of 30-32 inches. You would need a bow that is 45# **at your draw length**, not at 28". The 28" standard is just a convenient way to compare bows to one another, not a suggestion of what you should pull to.

The good news is that you haven't bought a bow yet, the bad news is that you think you can buy your hunting weight bow and quickly work your way into it. That way lies bad form, bad habits, frustration, etc. Because you are new to archery you should learn to shoot a bow first, with a light bow, rather than trying to plunge straight into hunting with a hunting weight bow. It is going to take you a while to learn to shoot, but it will take you less time if you get a lighter bow to learn on.

If you can, you should look into seeing if there are archery ranges in your area and find a coach--which is advice I hated getting because it was so inconvenient, but it really is the best advice anybody here can give you, other than **get a bow you can actually pull back comfortably to full draw**. It is some of the hardest advice to take, and even experienced archers, who should know better, will often try and skip this step. But your case is as clear as an example as I've seen that you should get a lighter bow. You can avoid the mistake that so many people make, a mistake that causes many to get frustrated and or injured and give up the sport of archery that they were hoping to take up.

And remember, your ideas about killing deer at 25-30 yards mean you will have to learn to be a _good_ archer. A clean kill shot at 30 yards in hunting conditions with a recurve is a skilled shot--even with sights and a stabilizer. So give yourself the advantage you need and start with a lighter bow for learning. Or at the very least, get a bow that is 45# at your actual draw length and is designed for a long draw length, not for 28#.


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## sj_lutz

As others have pointed out, your draw length isn't a variable, or something you work your way into, it is what it is. Trying to get your form situatated while pulling a few inches less than your drawlength would be kinda like pushing a wagon uphill with a rope.....it just aint gonna work.


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## LBR

Actually you can adjust your draw length some, depending on your anchor point(s) and grip style. I used to draw 32" on a low wrist longbow, but I changed my anchor and now draw 30.5" on a medium wrist longbow. I still draw about 32" on a bow with a high wrist grip. If I shot Olympic style (under the chin), I'd probably draw 33" or more.

I don't know how much of it is true, but I've read that Howard Hill shortened his draw length by making some adjustments, because it was so hard to find arrows spined heavy enough.

It's not a good idea to try and make yourself fit a particular bow, especially if you can't get a consistent anchor with it, but you can make small adjustments in your draw length.

Chad


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## Jamesw

Well first if you could only pull a 50lb bow 21" that should tell you about 30-35lbs at a 28" draw is the heaviest bow you should start with.Trying to start with something 10 or 15lbs heavier in all honesty is a waste of your time and money if you really want to acheive your goals one day.You have to learn to walk before you run or you will fall down a lot.


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## Flyboy718

*Quinn bows!*

You need to take a look at the Quinn bows...great price for an exceptional shooting bow. www.quinnsarchery.com


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## Jim Casto Jr

> (the reason for Cedar as the riser is because cedar is much smoother to the feel than the other woods and because its a natural bug repellant)



WOW! I didn't know that. Be sure to let us know the price quote from Martin.


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## SandSquid

Warbow said:


> If you can, you should look into seeing if there are archery ranges in your area and find a coach--which is advice I hated getting because it was so inconvenient, but it really is the best advice anybody here can give you,


It never ceases to amaze me that someone would go out and drop several hundreds (or thousands) of dollars on all the high-speed, low-drag kit and balk at spending $30/hour for a one-on-one session. In my opinion this should be the very first investment you can make. Before you even purchase your first arrow. This serves to start you off correctly learning good form, and will save years of frustration and effort down the road to unlearn.

Also a coach can work with you to determine what gear is best suited for you, and be able to put several bows in your hands so you can shoot them yourself before you commit to purchasing. When my daughters and wife were interested in "trying it out" I talked to one of the other coaches at the local range and set them up with some private lessons. After only 4 lessons (1 per week) and about an hour practice each day, they were already out-shooting folks who had been shooting for 10 years, and had no bad habits. After only 3 months my wife and daughter both took the State Championship in their respective divisions. I am absolutely convinced that this would not have been possible without good coaching. Now they are both certified coaches and teaching others.

I am in a unique situation where I get to start "fresh" and re-learn proper technique, hopefully without all the bad habits that have been plaguing me sine 1982. A week before hunting season I tore my bicep tendon and labrum, and I have not been able to shoot a bow right handed since. In March I started shooting left handed for the first time ever, and by then end of only a month I was shooting better left handed than I ever did right handed. Hopefully once my shoulder fully heals, and I can actually lift a bow with my left hand, I can start re-learning how to shoot an that side. By that time my brain should have had enough time to forget all the bad traits buried in my subconscious muscle memory.

I'm sure that if you posted your general location someone here could recommend a good coach or even offer to help you out themselves.
If you are anywhere near Memphis, TN I'd be more than willing to give you a few sessions, gratis.QUOTE]


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## otacon122

I don't know what it is with people trying to talk me out of doing one thing and into doing something else. I have one guy offline who keeps trying to talk me into buying a 150# compound bow with carbon arrows for hunting, claiming that a 350fps compound will shoot faster than a deer can react and he keeps trying to tell me that faster is better when it comes to arrow speed for hunting and when I try to tell him I like recurves better he says things like "its sad that you want to hunt with a stick that the deer can dodge really easily. Its sad that you want to play around with primitive technology that was out-dated centuries ago. Its sad that you want a bow that's good for maybe 15 yards at the most and even at that range its still too slow to kill." and things like that. His bragging about compound bows is getting annoying. Then I come on here and people are trying to talk me out of buying a 45# recurve and buying something a baby can shoot. To make matters worse, 35# bows aren't even legal here for hunting, and I don't have the money to buy tons of different bows. I want ONE bow I can use for everything - target practice, hunting, fishing, competition, all of that.

Unless some of you want to part with an old bow and give me one for free that I can learn with, don't come in here and try to do what my friend is doing and pressure me into doing something that I don't want to do. I HATE that.


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## rcarcher1718

otacon122 said:


> Unless some of you want to part with an old bow and give me one for free that I can learn with, don't come in here and try to do what my friend is doing and pressure me into doing something that I don't want to do. I HATE that.


They are just trying to help out. You will develop bad habits and wont have as much fun with a bow you shoot very well. 

also, dont come in here and ask for opinions and then get all pissy when you get advise you dont want to hear.


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## elk country rp

not to be reudundant, but....

http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showpost.php?p=1054841977&postcount=11


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## otacon122

The thing I have against coaches is they are so dead-set in their ways that they have a "my way or the highway" mindset. I know its because they know what they are doing, but it gets annoying when people boss me around like I'm a slave. I hate taking orders, and I prefer doing things my own way and developing my own techniques. This mentality is because of the way I was raised - I was taught to resist peer pressure with phrases like "if everyone else jumped off a cliff, would you?" Because of that, I try to stay as far away from the Status Quo as I can, and I try to do things my own way any chance I get. My parents do not believe people should do things "just because everyone else does it". My parents call those kind of people "lemmings", and my mom doesn't want me to become a lemming.

My habit is to do things my own way and develop my own techniques at everything I do. I have my own techniques in everything, including driving. My technique in driving is such that I am 100% in tune with everything the car is doing - I can tell when the car is losing power, I can tell when the car is losing traction, I can tell when the car is being pushed too hard, I can respond to situations in less than a second, and I know what equipment I need for the situations I will be in. For example, the weather here is as unpredictable as the traffic, so I buy expensive hardened-steel twin-blade wiper blades with de-icer washer fluid, carbon ceramic racing brakes that are guaranteed never to need maintenance under normal street conditions, I buy the brightest headlights and taillights I can find, I buy tires that grip the road like glue, and I buy suspension that allows me to latch onto and match a Subaru WRX STi maneuver for maneuver. This ability spills over into everything else I do, and it will be the same way in archery.


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## elk country rp

can't buy skill......

or wisdom......

gotta earn them the hard way, i guess.

good luck!


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## crablegs

I dont think you should post on here asking for help, and then shooting down any advice anyone gives you.

How long have you been hunting? I know everyone thinks they are some sort of sneaky ninja hunter when they first start, but then they realize that is not very easy!


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## otacon122

elk country rp said:


> can't buy skill......
> 
> or wisdom......
> 
> gotta earn them the hard way, i guess.
> 
> good luck!


I prefer to think of it as The School of Hard Knocks, which I believe is the best teacher. I have always held the belief that you will never learn anything if you have someone holding your hand the whole way.


Crablegs, the reason I am upset is because I have people all around me trying to talk me out of becoming a bowhunter. The minimum legal draw weight here in Kansas is 45#, and I do not have the money to buy more than one bow for different purposes. I am not a rich American companieman like the rest of the people in here, so I do not have the money to buy all these different bows for all these different purposes. I only have the money for one bow, one set of arrows, one quiver, and...well, you get the picture, so I need a multipurpose bow and arrows strong enough to handle going from foam targets to live animals and back to targets.

On here, I have people trying to talk me into buying a 30# bow and IRL I have people trying to talk me into buying a compound bow. Every day I have to deal with a bowhunter who claims nothing will beat a 50# compound with carbon arrows for killing deer, and he says that his 50# compound can shoot at 350fps, which he says is faster than a deer can react, and he keeps insisting that I should buy a compound because they shoot faster and that speed means the difference between bringing home dinner and going home hungry. It is really starting to make me angry that he just won't shut up about my decision to use recurve bows, and then I come on here and people are trying to tell me that I would be better off with a 30# recurve despite the fact 30# recurves are not legal for hunting here.

My original question was what bows would be good for beginners. Nowhere in there did I intend to start a debate about draw weight and draw distance. I only asked about the bows themselves. My draw distance is 30 inches and the maximum I can pull is 50#. The only reason I couldn't pull a 50# back more than 21 inches was because Bass Pro used a longbow, not a recurved, and the bow was a demo one they had. They didn't have any bow in stock with a 30" draw length, so I could not get fitted for a bow. Bass Pro said my only option is to get one custom made for 45# draw weight, 30" draw distance, and whatever else I want and just pray that it is the right configuration. They are not being helpful at all; nobody in that department knows anything about longbows or recurves, and there's only one who knows anything about bowhunting and bow fishing.


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## elk country rp

nobody's trying to talk you out of bowhunting- just trying to save you from making the #1 boneheaded mistake in all of archery- overbowing yourself. 

lol- us "rich American companiemen" are just trying to help you do it a smarter way. go ahead & get yourself a 50#'er, you'll understand why we've been saying what we've been saying eventually.....

you said it yourself- the school of hard knocks- have fun with it. i've switched to a motto that seems to work pretty well for me- work smarter, not harder.


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## otacon122

I already know what my draw distance and draw strength should be. 45# weight at 32" draw. Unfortunately, nobody has a 45 by 32 recurved that I could test-fire, so my only option I have is to have one custom made at 45 by 32 and hope its the right setup. Bass Pro only had a 50 by 21 longbow that wasn't even designed for someone of my height (keep in mind, most of the guys on staff were a lot smaller than me - I stand 6'2 with a 65 inch arm span; pretty much all my clothes have to be special-ordered because of my stature - I weigh only 150lbs - I need to special-order 30" waist by 36" inseam jeans, mens size 14 shoes, and I am too big for medium but too small for large shirts, so it is hard to find a shirt that would fit me without being too tight or too baggy. Pretty much everything I get has to be custom-fitted for me because of these stats. Its not as cut and dry for me because I'm a lot thinner than most men my height and age. When it comes to cars, large cars like like the Kia Amanti or Ford Crown Victoria are the only ones big enough to meet my legroom requirements, but they are way too expensive for me. I need a MINIMUM of 42 inches of legroom in a car to be comfortable, and there are maybe only half a dozen cars on the market that fit those specs.

As for the reasoning behind my stature - no, its not because I am anemic. It is because I have an insanely-fast metabolism. All my doctors have said I need to consume a MINIMUM of 8,000 calories a day just to keep up with my metabolism, so most of my money goes to food, which is one reason why I wanted to become a hunter. I eat so much in one day that it would easily cost more than $400 a day to keep up with the 8,000 calorie diet, so becoming a hunter is actually somewhat of a necessity. On days where I am active, like I would be if I was out hunting, I would need to consume 10,000 to 12,000 calories a day.

As far as having fun with the school of hard knocks...You should come to Kansas City during the first snow day of the year...Epic failure in the Driving 101 Class at the School of Hard Knocks...No sound sweeter to my ears than the sound of brakes screeching and metal crunching as even grown adults with decades of driving experience under their belt fail miserably at driving in the snow. Another way I have fun with the school of hard knocks is watching everyone buy El Cheapo then find out that the quality sucks and they have to replace the product weeks or months later. A third way that I have fun with it is because of my shyness - I often resort to being an observer rather than a participant in life, so I see every mistake people make and learn that way.


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## Bullwings

Good luck with the advice thing since you already came in here with your mind set and were asking for AFIRMATION not advice... hehe

You asked what a good recurve bow for a beginner was, and anything with a 40# draw weight or higher is not a good bow for a beginner...

As for draw lengths, well, you don't seem to have a clue. There's is no such thing as a longbow with a 21" draw unless it's a kid's bow or a custom made bow for a 4'10" mini-person.

Stick bows don't have a "set" draw length like compounds do. You draw it to your draw length, whatever that may be, and either it stacks or it doesn't stack.

Every bow (unless custom) is measured at a 28 inch draw length. If your draw is shorter, then the poundage is lower than listed, if it's longer, then it's greater than listed. Also, longbows are also generally friendlier to longer draw lengths than are recurve bows, especially if they have an AMO length of 64" or greater.

Also, as far as compounds go, yeah, a compound actually does beat a stick bow for FPS, distance, and probably penetration, just like a rifle beats both a stick bow and a compound bow too. There's a reason you're using a stick bow and not a spear, or a compound bow and not a stick bow, or a rifle and not a compound bow -- better technology with generally greater advantages.

Anyway, you seem to know exactly what you want and what you're gonna do, I don't know why you asked for advice and got all pissed off when you got it... Didn't like what you heard i guess. I hope you're not an artist, i'd hate to hear what'd happen when you ask "How does my masterpiece painting look?" :zip:


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## otacon122

When I asked what bows are good for beginners, I was expecting brand names, like the Martin Jaguar or PSE Coyote or whatever, not anything to do with draw weight or draw distance. Basically what I wanted to know is what bows in the $100 to $250 range are good for beginners. I can decide on the draw weight and draw length myself. I just want to know what brands and models within those brands would best suit my needs. When I look at any product, I ask myself these questions:

Is it easy to use?
How much does it cost?
Is it durable enough to withstand the abuse of being pushed to its limits?
What features are available or can it be custom made?
How long will I need it for?
How long is it guaranteed to last?
and
Can I upgrade it if I need/want to?

My needs:

Must be powerful enough for hunting
Must be light enough to not cause fatigue
Must be upgradable to allow me to go from foam targets to live animals and back to targets
Must be heavy enough to remain stable
Must be durable enough to withstand being pushed to its limits
Must be capable of withstanding different kinds of weather
and
Must be affordable to those on tight budgets


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## Warbow

otacon122 said:


> Then I come on here and people are trying to talk me out of buying a 45# recurve and buying something a baby can shoot. To make matters worse, 35# bows aren't even legal here for hunting, and I don't have the money to buy tons of different bows. I want ONE bow I can use for everything - target practice, hunting, fishing, competition, all of that.


What you want doesn't exist, because you are a beginner who can't pull a 50# bow past 21". That is why people are trying to talk you out of **the** most common mistake people make when getting into archery, starting with too heavy a bow. And your story kind of changes over time, first you wanted to get into archery because you are afraid of North Korea, now it is because you need to eat 10,000 calories of food a day (about 3 pounds of butter) and say that would cost $400 a day? What the heck are you cooking? Anyways, your diet is neither here nor there. You don't have take people's free advice, and they don't have to give you bad advice that is more what you want to hear.


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## nuts&bolts

otacon122 said:


> When I asked what bows are good for beginners, I was expecting brand names, like the Martin Jaguar or PSE Coyote or whatever, not anything to do with draw weight or draw distance. Basically what I wanted to know is what bows in the $100 to $250 range are good for beginners. I can decide on the draw weight and draw length myself. I just want to know what brands and models within those brands would best suit my needs. When I look at any product, I ask myself these questions:
> 
> Is it easy to use?
> How much does it cost?
> Is it durable enough to withstand the abuse of being pushed to its limits?
> What features are available or can it be custom made?
> How long will I need it for?
> How long is it guaranteed to last?
> and
> Can I upgrade it if I need/want to?
> 
> My needs:
> 
> Must be powerful enough for hunting
> Must be light enough to not cause fatigue
> Must be upgradable to allow me to go from foam targets to live animals and back to targets
> Must be heavy enough to remain stable
> Must be durable enough to withstand being pushed to its limits
> Must be capable of withstanding different kinds of weather
> and
> Must be affordable to those on tight budgets


Hello otacon122:

I am a NFAA Level II coach.

I will not tell you what to do.

It is very clear you have made up your mind.


Now,
some information for you.

The recurve bows will usually have a sticker on the bottom limb.

So,
you want 45# at YOUR draw length of about 30-inches.

So,
ALL BOWS have a 28-inch sticker on the bottom limb of the recurve bow.

The rule of thumb thumb is to ADD 2 lbs for every EXTRA inch of draw length.

So,
if YOU want 45# on your fingers, at a 30-inch draw length,
then YOU want a 41# sticker on the bottom limb of the bow.

This is because,
at 28-inches of Draw Length,
you will get 41#.

When you pull back to 29-inches,
the weight on your fingers will be 43#.

When you pull back fully to 30-inches,
the weight on your fingers will be 45#.


*So,
you are searching for a bow with a 41# sticker on the bottom limb.*


TRAINING

I am also 6 feet, 2-inches.

WE are the same height.


You say your arm span is 65-inches.

Are you SURE you are measuring from the middle finger tip
to the middle finger tip,
with your arms horizontal,
and the palms touching the wall?


I am 6 feet 2-inches,
and I have a 76-inch arm span.


So,
please double check your arm span measurement.



Now,
back to TRAINING.


I am 6 feet 2-inches tall, just like YOU,
BUT...

I weigh 292 lbs, nearly DOUBLE your weight.


I UNDERSTAND you only want to purchase 1 bow.

That is fine.


As a coach,
I am concerned that you MIGHT injure yourself,
UNLESS
you do EXTENSIVE weight training.


So,
please allow me to describe how I trained myself
to go from a $100 wooden recurve bow,
with 25 lb limbs to start.

I understand you only want to purchase ONE bow,
so you will need to duplicate my training procedure.


I shot a 25 lb recurve bow for at least 3 months
to DEVELOP CONTROL and ACCURACY.

Then,
I increased to 30 lb limbs,
and my arms were SHAKING.

I had no control,
no accuracy 
and required daily shooting practice for another 3 months,
to get CONTROL and ACCURACY for my arrow shooting.


Then,
I purchased some 42 lb limbs.

NEVER increase more than 5 lbs
when changing from limb weight to the next higher limb weight.


I start ALL of my students at 25 lb limbs,
and then go to 30 lb limbs
and then go to 34 lb limbs
and then go to 36 lb limbs
and then go to 38 lb limbs
and then go to 40 lb limbs.


AS the draw weight goes higher,
then the increases in draw weight get smaller.

Since you plan to do something similar to what I did...

I went from 30 lb limbs to 42 lb limbs...

actually,
you plan to START with 41 lb limbs....

then,
you must go to the gym
and work with weights.

Since my 42 lb limbs
work out to 46 lbs of draw weight at my 30-inch draw length...

I decided to train in the gym
with 60 lbs per arm.

Must train BOTH ARMS.

So,
find a bucket and fill it with 8 gallons of water.

8 gallons of water is about 65 lbs.

Now,
start lifting the 8 gallon bucket of water 100 times per arm.

Say 20 lifts with your left arm.
Then,
20 lifts with your right arm.

Then, 20 lifts with your left arm.

Then, 20 lifts with your right arm.


I did this in a gym,
with a machine called an upright rowing machine.

I set the machine for 120 lbs,
basically 60 lbs per arm.

It was really tough, at first,
but I really wanted to shoot the 42 lb limbs I had just bought used.

When I could EASILY pull the handles (120 lbs of weights on the machine)
100 times,
then I felt I was strong enough
to SAFELY use my 46 lb recurve bow.


IF YOU DO NOT TRAIN with the 8 gallons of water (66 lbs of weight)
then you most definitely will injure your shoulders PERMANENTLY.

A torn shoulder muscle (rotator cuff)
is an injury that requires EXTREMELY expensive surgery.

The physical therapy AFTER SURGERY is painful beyond your imagination.

You do not want to skip the weight training
and try to pull a 46 lb recurve bow again and again.


Start with 4 gallons of water,
and do your exercises.

Then,
build up to 5 gallons of water,
and do your exercises.

Build up to 8 gallons of water (about 60 lbs of weight per arm)
and do your exercises.

Lying down dumb bell press is good.
Bent over dumb bell rowing exercise is also good.



So,
build your strength SLOWLY and SAFELY.


Since you have decided a 41# bow is your first and only bow,
then start your TRAINING,
so you can be safe.

It can be done.

You are from the school of hard knocks,
and you are determined.

So,
practice,
train HARD with your strength building exercises,
and be SAFE while strength training,
and then
when lifting 66 lbs with each arm,
100 times is EASY...

ONLY THEN,
will you be safe to shoot your 41# rated recurve bow.


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## Jamesw

No reason to ask for advice.You all ready have your mind made up about things.I hope that custom bow you plan on Martin building for you works out.It will be a one of a kind and just perfect to fit your needs and goals in archery.Good luck with your hunting and reaching all your goals.:darkbeer:


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## Ratdog68

Hmmm...? In my neck of the woods, meat doesn't come any cheaper than bulk packs at Costco. Hunting costs considerably more.

Strength training? Is there a plan for getting that pile of dead deer to the road, not to mention into the rig? Can't draw hunting weight already?

Caloric intake vs. metabolic rate... nothing's leaner than game meat... are we considering exertion into the plan of attack? Just the act of hunting, not to mention getting that pile of dead weight to the road? 

As I improve my archery skills... I find that arrows are a cost of having fun. If I buy 'em already done by a "pro shop"... I find that corners are cut... causing tips to come off prematurely. So... I'm learning how to do my own. Feathers get torn off, nocks come off and get lost. Either way, yer gonna be spending money on 'em.

If cheap eats with high caloric value are paramount... may I suggest the value menu at Mickey D's. Double cheese burger mini meal and an extra double cheese burger is less than $5... and the metabolic rate doesn't spike.

Yes, the Jaguar is a nice entry level bow... but, it's not without its issues sometimes.... but, that's another tale and adventure.


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## otacon122

nuts&bolts, I currently train under an Olympic weightlifting wizard named Istvan Javorek. He churns out world champion weightlifters the same way India produces software wizards. Under him, I gained 5lbs of muscle in just 12 weeks and his exercises use plyometrics to build every muscle in the body. The body's core never stops working, metabolism is pegged in the red zone, and he guarantees a six-pack and the chiseled body of your dreams. All you have to do is survive Dumbbell Hell. One of his success stories was a man named Dragomir Cioroslan, who started out under Mr. Javorek at 15 years old with Rheumatic Heart Disease and Rickets, and after 3 years, transformed into an Olympic weightlifter clocking in a 425lb Clean and Jerk. Dragomir's heart also underwent a transformation. No longer was it frail and weak, now it is so strong and so big it only beats 32 times per minute but pumps so much blood that he is able to stay alive despite the slow heart rate. Mr. Javorek himself was able to do a 365lbs clean and jerk.

Mr. Javorek refers to me as "Mr. Biceps" because of how quickly I am developing and how big my biceps are getting in relation to how much weight I am lifting. He said that my gain of 5lbs of muscle in 12 weeks was faster than any of his other athletes primarily because my body doesn't have to work against itself when I lift weights.

His secret to such rapid muscle growth: "Lots of protein and carbohydrates. Most of my athletes need at least half a gram of protein and 1 gram of carbohydrates per pound of body weight per day. Basically they have to eat their own weight in food every day. For breakfast: You want to consume fast- medium- and slow-digest proteins, which will give your body 6 hours worth of fuel, but the secret is to wait until at least 1 hour before you begin your workout, then eat. For lunch, you want to eat medium and slow digest proteins, then for dinner, you just want slow digest proteins. This will give your body all the fuel it needs to build muscle. Your body needs fuel even after the workout because the muscle tissues are being rebuilt long after the exercise stops."


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## Warbow

otacon122 said:


> His secret to such rapid muscle growth: "Lots of protein and carbohydrates. Most of my athletes need at least half a gram of protein and 1 gram of carbohydrates per pound of body weight per day. Basically they have to eat their own weight in food every day."


Er, no, they don't.

You weigh 150, right?

1/2 gram protein per pound = 75 **grams** 
1 gram of carbs per day = 150 **grams**
Total: 225 grams = 1/2 pound.


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## elk country rp

i think i need my hip waders to read this thread......


----------



## Eldermike

elk country rp said:


> i think i need my hip waders to read this thread......



Not if you sit in a tree stand and just watch it and eat pizza:slice:


----------



## otacon122

Why is it every time I try to ask a legitimate question, it always turns into an argument? I mean, the guy who is trying to get me to buy a compound bow won't stop arguing about how much better they are for hunting and complaining that I have poor tastes if I try to hunt with a stick.

Anyway, whoever said that I should go for a 41# bow with a 30" draw length...THANK YOU! That's all people needed to say. My next question is would such a bow have enough power to get a clean kill on a deer out to 30 yards with a 400 grain arrow?


----------



## Bender

I have seen this sort of behavior before as a mechanic. People ask me something about what is wrong with their car. I tell them them the truth, then they want to argue with me because its not what they want to hear. They act as if they already knew the answer. As if they were the expert and I'm the idiot. Which of course comes down to my final reply, "So then why did you bother me by asking me to begin with? You clearly know more than I do. You need to go handle it as you see fit. We're done here." I no longer care if I'm rude to such people.
There is no point to continuing any further interaction with otacon 122. Kiss him off. Its a waste.


----------



## otacon122

Bender said:


> I have seen this sort of behavior before as a mechanic. People ask me something about what is wrong with their car. I tell them them the truth, then they want to argue with me because its not what they want to hear. They act as if they already knew the answer. As if they were the expert and I'm the idiot. Which of course comes down to my final reply, "So then why did you bother me by asking me to begin with? You clearly know more than I do. You need to go handle it as you see fit. We're done here." I no longer care if I'm rude to such people.
> There is no point to continuing any further interaction with otacon 122. Kiss him off. Its a waste.


Its not that I don't want to face the truth, its that people are trying to talk me into buying all these different bows for all these different purposes. I only have the money for ONE bow, and that's why I am so upset. I do not have several hundred dollars to blow on a 25lb bow for training, a 45lb for hunting, and another 45 for competition. My budget for a bow is $200 or less, so I do not have the money to go around buying five or six different bows just to learn with.

I never deal with mechanics when it comes to my car because mechanics try to sell me a bunch of stuff I don't even need. I expect to go into a mechanic and only have him do the work that needs to be done, not try to sell me a bunch of stuff that I can get and use myself for less. Last mechanic I went to for an oil change tried to get me to buy fuel injector cleaner, oil stabilizer, a new air filter, new wipers, and a bunch of other stuff for my car that I didn't even need.


----------



## Warbow

otacon122 said:


> Its not that I don't want to face the truth, its that people are trying to talk me into buying all these different bows for all these different purposes. I only have the money for ONE bow, and that's why I am so upset. I do not have several hundred dollars to blow on a 25lb bow for training, a 45lb for hunting, and another 45 for competition. My budget for a bow is $200 or less, so I do not have the money to go around buying five or six different bows just to learn with.
> 
> That's the only reason why I am so upset. Because people here think I am a rich American companieman that can afford half a dozen bows and hundreds of arrows and hundreds of dollars in archery lessons. That is not the case. I am not going to repeat myself anymore. I only have the money for ONE bow, and that bow has to be powerful enough for hunting, yet light enough I can train with it.
> 
> I never deal with mechanics when it comes to my car because mechanics try to sell me a bunch of stuff I don't even need. I expect to go into a mechanic and only have him do the work that needs to be done, not try to sell me a bunch of stuff that I can get and use myself for less.


The reason you are upset is because you want to do something people think is a bad idea and they won't help you do it.

You are still making a number of misinterpretations of what people are saying. You should use a lighter bow for learning, especially given your explicit statement that you can't pull a 50# bow more than 21"--but you mistake that advice for saying you need to own multiple bows *simultaneously*. You don't. You can buy a light weight used bow and then sell it and buy a new bow. Yes, that is more trouble, but it is way less trouble than trying to learn good form on a bow you can't pull to your full draw length. Bows hold their value fairly well and if you buy it used there will be very little depreciation. But your impatience is getting the better of you. You want to be out hunting, picking off deer at 30 yards. That doesn't happen over night. A 30 yard clean kill in hunting conditions is a **skilled** shot, and you are neither an archer nor a hunter, so you have **two** skill sets you have to learn. You ain't gonna need a hunting weight bow for **months**.


----------



## otacon122

ok, look. I understand you guys are trying to help, but 30# at 28 is way too light for me. Even if I did draw back to 30 inches, that would still be 36# of resistance, which is still too light. The fact I was even able to pull 50# in the first place should have been an indicator that 50# is the most resistance I can handle. I talked to Martin themselves and they said for a 30" draw, I would be better off with a 40# or 45#, and that they have no doubt I would be able to draw a 45# back to 30 inches. 36# of resistance is nothing...In fact, there would be no strength benefit to me from using such a bow.

They also said at this time, they do not do custom orders for the Jaguar Takedown.


----------



## WestTNMan

45# Martin Jaguar $125.00


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## otacon122

WestTNMan said:


> 45# Martin Jaguar $125.00


I know what the price is. Bass Pro sells one for $140 brand new.


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## Warbow

otacon122 said:


> ok, look. I understand you guys are trying to help, but 30# at 28 is way too light for me. Even if I did draw back to 30 inches, that would still be 36# of resistance, which is still too light. The fact I was even able to pull 50# in the first place should have been an indicator that 50# is the most resistance I can handle. I talked to Martin themselves and they said for a 30" draw, I would be better off with a 40# or 45#, and that they have no doubt I would be able to draw a 45# back to 30 inches. 36# of resistance is nothing...In fact, there would be no strength benefit to me from using such a bow.
> 
> They also said at this time, they do not do custom orders for the Jaguar Takedown.


Actually, you **weren't** able to draw back the 50# bow. You only drew it back to 21". 



otacon122 said:


> I am 6'2" tall and I weigh in at 150lbs, most of which is muscle. * I tested my draw distance on a 50lb longbow and was only able to pull back about 21 inches*, so for my goal of a 27 or 28 inch draw, I was told I needed to start with a 40 or 45 pound draw on a recurve, and the Martin Jaguar TakeDown does not come in anything less than a 45.


[emphasis added]

That isn't drawing a 50# bow. 

Who ever watched you pull a 50# bow to 21 inches and said you should get a 45# (@ 28) bow for 30-32 inch draw length wasn't doing you any favors.

36# isn't too light for you. While it is good that you are looking for a light hunting bow at (that you can't pull) at 45# rather than some over macho 60# bow (that you **really** can't pull) you don't seem to grasp the concept of learning on a light bow. It is **supposed to be light**, so that you can concentrate on learning the nuances of archery form rather than on strength.


----------



## Bullwings

Warbow said:


> Actually, you **weren't** able to draw back the 50# bow. You only drew it back to 21".
> 
> [emphasis added]
> 
> That isn't drawing a 50# bow.
> 
> Who ever watched you pull a 50# bow to 21 inches and said you should get a 45# (@ 28) bow for 30-32 inch draw length wasn't doing you any favors.
> 
> 36# isn't too light for you. While it is good that you are looking for a light hunting bow at (that you can't pull) at 45# rather than some over macho 60# bow (that you **really** can't pull) you don't seem to grasp the concept of learning on a light bow. It is **supposed to be light**, so that you can concentrate on learning the nuances of archery form rather than on strength.



and, to add to that, drawing a 50# bow 21 inches... hmmm that's 7 inches off of 28 inches. which, if you do the math 7*2 = 14# (assuming around 2 pounds or so per inch of draw). so 50-14 = 36#.... wow, what a magic number...

looks like you need a 30# bow...


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## SandSquid

otacon122 said:


> The fact I was even able to pull 50# in the first place


On 15JULY you stated: I tested my draw distance on a *50lb* longbow and *was only able to pull back about 21 inches*, 
OK LISTEN UP, You did NOT pull 50#, a bow rated at 50#@28" will probably only give you 30-35# at the 21" you pulled it back. 

And consider you are going to be pulling this back a minimum of 60 times in a row, if you are competing. Yeah OK go ahead and get a 50# bow. I know a great orthopedic surgeon I can refer you to when you blow your bicep tendon or rotator cuff.

Really... we aren't making this ***** up to impress each other. There are quite a few competent archers and coaches that have been doing this for a long time, that know what they are talking about. If you want to set yourself up for failure, or a lifetime of trying to break bad habits formed from starting out over-bowed and not wanting to spend even one hour with a coach that is you business. But don’t get all huffy because we are giving you advice you don’t want to hear. You asked for advice, we gave it to you, sorry you don’t. like what you were told, but the truth remains.

You can very easily pick up a decent used bow and two sets of limbs, one set @ 25# and one set at 35#. You might even swing it in a new bow....

Unless where you hunt has specific draw weight laws, there is absolutely no reason you need to go higher than 35# to harvest anything smaller than a moose. It's about shot placement, being able to hit where you are aiming. 
Case in point: My *8 Year old daughter *took a yearling doe last fall, 15 yards out, *heart and double-lung shot*. *The deer died 50 yards from where she shot it... * Now, granted she is the current NFAA Cub Freestyle State Champion, and a really good shot, *but she did this w/ a 22# bow*. Again SHOT PLACEMENT! (our state has no minimum draw weight restriction) 

Same thing for competition, no need to go over 35# unless you are shooting in gale force winds.

Next point, the Martin Jaguar DOES come in 35#, whoever told you that either does not know what he's talking about (highly likely if they work at [email protected]*Sh*p) or blowing smoke because they have a pile of 45# bows in the back room they want to get rid of. This should be another hint you are getting bad advice from them.



Lastly, like Sergeant Hulka said "Lighten up, Francis."


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## otacon122

SandSquid said:


> Unless where you hunt has specific draw weight laws, there is absolutely no reason you need to go higher than 35# to harvest anything smaller than a moose. It's about shot placement, being able to hit where you are aiming.


Actually, there is a specific draw weight law here - minimum 50# against elk, moose, and other large game and minimum 40# against deer. That's the thing you do not realize. Unless the bow is going to be used for competition only, then it has to be a minimum of 40# draw before its legal. The state enacted that law to "ensure that all animals are killed in an ethical and humane way" during hunting season.

The main reason I don't want to pay for lessons is because I do not have the money. Right now, money is my biggest limiting factor. You guys can sit here and b**** all you want, but unless you want to fork over several hundred dollars so I can get myself a bow, a couple dozen arrows, and some archery lessons, stop whining.


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## Warbow

otacon122 said:


> Actually, there is a specific draw weight law here - minimum 50# against elk, moose, and other large game and minimum 40# against deer. That's the thing you do not realize. Unless the bow is going to be used for competition only, then it has to be a minimum of 40# draw before its legal.


It is pretty obvious that SS does know about minimum draw weight laws, but those have nothing to do with how to best learn archery, which is to learn with a bow you can actually pull comfortably to your full draw length. 45# at you DL? Not so much.

Black Wolf like to note that not everybody needs to start with a bow of 30# or under since some people are stronger than others, so generic advice in regards to weight isn't applicable. You aren't one of those people, though. You can only pull a 50# bow to 21 inches.


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## otacon122

The main problem I am having is people are trying to get me to spend money I don't have. My budget for archery gear is $250 or less. That will get me a brand new Martin Jaguar Takedown, a dozen cedar hunting arrows, and turbine tip field points. Unless someone can find me a used bow that is in like-new condition that would fit within my budget, then I would appreciate if people would stop whining about this whole thing. I am not going to keep repeating myself because I HATE it when people don't listen. MONEY IS MY BIGGEST LIMITATION! I don't see what people don't understand about that. I only have the money for one bow, and that one bow has to be able to do everything I want it to. I applied for two jobs with the city, one as a groundskeeper and another as a police dispatcher. I already had an interview for the groundskeeper position - its a seasonal job (lasting until October or so), pays $8.50 per hour, the hours are 6:00am to 2:30pm US Central Time with 1/2 hour for lunch, and the work is Monday through Friday. The police dispatcher job is part-time, 10:00pm to 6:00am, pays $16.50 per hour, and is at least 32 hours a week with the requirement I have to work weekends and holidays.

If I get either job, I will be able to afford bigger and better archery gear (if I get either job, my budget for archery stuff will go up to $800), so I am waiting to see what becomes of those before I decide what to get.


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## Jamesw

You need to build your own bow.Learn to build selfbows and in the process you will build strength as well.Then when you need a heavier one you can build what you need in an afternoon.Low cost but has a learning curve and requires dedication.Go that route and money will never be a holdup. jmo


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## otacon122

The problem I have with that is the only woods here that are native are Pine, Sycamore, and Cedar. Oak, especially Live Oak or White Oak, is rare here in the Kansas City area. Most Maples here are imported Japanese Maple trees, and the city is very strict about people cutting down trees. White Oak here is expensive, at around $150 per foot, with Cedar being around $15 a foot. Mahogany is sold here, but is also very expensive. It is as dense as most oaks and is bug and rot resistant like cedar, but requires yearly coatings of a finish or varnish. Honestly, though, I like the look and feel of Mahogany. A deep brownish-red color when finished properly, and it is as smooth as Cedar because both Mahogany and Cedar have very fine grains. It would be much cheaper for me to just buy a Martin Jaguar Takedown because Mahogany runs about $80 or so per foot.


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## Warbow

otacon122 said:


> The main problem I am having is people are trying to get me to spend money I don't have. My budget for archery gear is $250 or less. That will get me a brand new Martin Jaguar Takedown, a dozen cedar hunting arrows, and turbine tip field points. Unless someone can find me a used bow that is in like-new condition that would fit within my budget, then I would appreciate if people would stop whining about this whole thing. I am not going to keep repeating myself because I HATE it when people don't listen. MONEY IS MY BIGGEST LIMITATION! I don't see what people don't understand about that. I only have the money for one bow, and that one bow has to be able to do everything I want it to.


I think what people are trying to help you with is to keep you from **wasting** your money. If you buy a bow that is too heavy it will impede your goals and possibly cause you to get frustrated and/or injured and give up archery all together. We've all seen it happen. It is like you are trying to justify buy a suit the wrong size be cause it is cheep--a suit you want to be perfect for learning, competition and hunting. And, again, you continue to reject buying a used light bow which you can sell when you are ready for hunting.


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## otacon122

Warbow said:


> I think what people are trying to help you with is to keep you from **wasting** your money. If you buy a bow that is too heavy it will impede your goals and possibly cause you to get frustrated and/or injured and give up archery all together. We've all seen it happen. It is like you are trying to justify buy a suit the wrong size be cause it is cheep--a suit you want to be perfect for learning, competition and hunting. And, again, you continue to reject buying a used light bow which you can sell when you are ready for hunting.


I am against buying anything used because the condition and quality become questionable. I learned that lesson the hard way with my last car. The guy was selling it, said it was in like-new condition, even took it to a mechanic who said it was running like new, but after just two months, the alternator went out, one of the brakes warped, and there was oil leaking all over the place because the guy had used synthetic oil in an engine that wasn't designed for it. The reason I buy new is because I know it will last. Bought a computer used and found out it had a bunch of keyloggers, spyware, and other malicious things on it, the guy had forgotten to reformat the hard drive before selling it and I almost got stuck with the FBI coming to my house and accusing me of hacking because the previous owner was a member of the cyber terrorist group "anonymous". I am not all for buying El Cheapo, either. I don't want people to buy the most expensive thing on the market, but I do want them to spend the money to get something that will do everything they need to do and more.


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## Warbow

otacon122 said:


> I am against buying anything used because the condition and quality become questionable. I learned that lesson the hard way with my last car. The guy was selling it, said it was in like-new condition, even took it to a mechanic who said it was running like new, but after just two months, the alternator went out, one of the brakes warped, and there was oil leaking all over the place because the guy had used synthetic oil in an engine that wasn't designed for it. The reason I buy new is because I know it will last.


I've had good experiences with my used archery equipment, but bad sales do occur.


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## sj_lutz

*This thread is getting paused for the cause. I'll unlock it later on.*


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## Migs253

*pse impala*

I just started archery too and picked up a PSE Impala. I've found it to be a great bow but would suggest listening to the advice posted by others. They are very knowledgeable. I've been reading these forums a lot and there are reasons why so many people will do the same thing. Its called the best method. 
You wouldn't want to try and cut a steak with a spoon right? I think everyone will agree a knife is better. Does that make all the knife users in the world lemmings?

Same thing as getting a bow which you can easily pull back. One of the best pieces of advice I took away from this forum was getting a lesson. It will help you find the right bow, get the right arrows, stave off bad form, and make you a happier individual with your purchase. 

Don't knock others for finding a method that works and sharing it with others.

To everyone on this forum I would like to thank you for all the informative posts.


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## reddogge

Let's see, one published author and one archery coach have given you advice which you have petulantely pooh-poohed so obviously you seem to have all the answers you need. No more advice needed as I see it.


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## Redneck5544

i started off with a pse impala and had no trouble at 40lbs. 28" draw it was a smooth shooter and had it for about 2 years till i sold it to my friend which i used the money to put in to my bob lee hunter takedown which i have current ly owned for about a year or so and probly want shoot anything else but the bob lees......... and loose your redhead broadheads get some magnus stingers:shade:


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## J0nathan

Alright, buddy, you've got to let your guard down for a few minutes and just LISTEN to what these good people are telling you. 

YOU CANNOT DRAW AND SHOOT A BOW OVER THIRTY-FIVE POUNDS! The intentions of this post are not to offend you, or turn you off of archery, I just want you to LISTEN. There are very experienced people on this sight, Sandsquid is a registered archery instructor, if no one else, listen to him. 

I started out with a fifty pound bow, I was not overbowed, and I could shoot all day and not get tired, however VERY FEW people can start off with a hunting weight bow, you should get a lower weight bow, something like twenty five pounds at twenty eight inches. NO, that would not be a waste of money because you could shoot it whereas you COULD NOT shoot a hunting weight bow! 

By listening to people who know what their doing your not being a "Lemming" (whatever the hell that is) your being SMART. 

If you want to buy a hunting weight bow, then by all means, go ahead, you will have truly wasted money then, and be stuck with a bow you are UNABLE TO SHOOT.

Again, the intention of this post is not to offend you, but to set these misconseptions you have straight, If you don't want to listen, then don't, but when you're stuck with a bow that is much too heavy for you, just think of all the good people on this forum that tried to tell you....


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## Redneck5544

alright be that way but the reason i started on a 40lb. bow is so i could deer hunt with it in SC which the limit is 40lbs. but thanks any way JONATHAN:lol3:


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## TheShadowEnigma

J0nathan said:


> By listening to people who know what their doing your not being a "Lemming" (whatever the hell that is) your being SMART.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lemming

Lemmings is also a really kick ass MSDOS game from back in the day. :tongue:


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## TheAncientOne

> If you want to buy a hunting weight bow, then by all means, go ahead, you will have truly wasted money then, and be stuck with a bow you are UNABLE TO SHOOT.


Let the guy buy what he wants. We can pick it up cheap on ebay next month after he hurts himself. If he's that stubborn, I don't want him running around in the woods armed anyway.

TAO


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## BJS

Not knowing a lot about traditional archery, but also one looking to get started in it, I ran across a recommendation for www.rudderbows.com.

Here's a hickory bow, that can be made in various weights. Maybe a better choice for hunting and your desire to re-enact ancient battles or what-not, and close to your $100 budget. http://216.119.68.89/store/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=1&products_id=5&zenid=558b3109b8eed9313ebda87592e49478

Personally, I think this guy is a fishing, and seems to be getting a lot of bites.

BJS


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## Okie1bow

otacon122 said:


> The thing I have against coaches is they are so dead-set in their ways that they have a "my way or the highway" mindset. I know its because they know what they are doing, but it gets annoying when people boss me around like I'm a slave. I hate taking orders, and I prefer doing things my own way and developing my own techniques. This mentality is because of the way I was raised - I was taught to resist peer pressure with phrases like "if everyone else jumped off a cliff, would you?" Because of that, I try to stay as far away from the Status Quo as I can, and I try to do things my own way any chance I get. My parents do not believe people should do things "just because everyone else does it". My parents call those kind of people "lemmings", and my mom doesn't want me to become a lemming.
> 
> My habit is to do things my own way and develop my own techniques at everything I do. I have my own techniques in everything,
> 
> ***Well then, I guess you are up "S_ _T Creek, then! I just could not stand it any longer


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## TheAncientOne

> The thing I have against coaches is they are so dead-set in their ways that they have a "my way or the highway" mindset. I know its because they know what they are doing, but it gets annoying when people boss me around like I'm a slave. I hate taking orders, and I prefer doing things my own way and developing my own techniques. This mentality is because of the way I was raised - I was taught to resist peer pressure with phrases like "if everyone else jumped off a cliff, would you?" Because of that, I try to stay as far away from the Status Quo as I can, and I try to do things my own way any chance I get. My parents do not believe people should do things "just because everyone else does it". My parents call those kind of people "lemmings", and my mom doesn't want me to become a lemming.
> 
> My habit is to do things my own way and develop my own techniques at everything I do. I have my own techniques in everything, including driving. My technique in driving is such that I am 100% in tune with everything the car is doing - I can tell when the car is losing power, I can tell when the car is losing traction, I can tell when the car is being pushed too hard, I can respond to situations in less than a second, and I know what equipment I need for the situations I will be in. For example, the weather here is as unpredictable as the traffic, so I buy expensive hardened-steel twin-blade wiper blades with de-icer washer fluid, carbon ceramic racing brakes that are guaranteed never to need maintenance under normal street conditions, I buy the brightest headlights and taillights I can find, I buy tires that grip the road like glue, and I buy suspension that allows me to latch onto and match a Subaru WRX STi maneuver for maneuver. This ability spills over into everything else I do, and it will be the same way in archery.


I just wanted everybody to re-read this.

Not only don't I want him running around in the woods armed, I don't want him driving in my state. 

TAO


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## bearsniper

anyone heard of the "mall ninja"? Seems almost like deja vu....
http://lonelymachines.org/mall-ninjas/


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## WindWalker

otacon122:

Ignore all this crap! Start with a draw-weight you can intially handle and then when you are ready to move up in draw-weight, simply change the string poundage. Start with a 30# DW string and work your way up to a 50# or 60# string.


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## JhoneilC

"I have my own techniques in everything"

I hate to follow this guy after he used a porto potty. Not sure what technique he will use in there 

Anywhoo, buy the Martin 41#@28". Not sure how old you are but if you are young then you might be able to recover quickly from injuries. Don't expect to hunt as soon as you buy the bow. Practice and practice until you can group your arrows tightly. Don't shoot at deers at 30 yards with a recurve. The closer the better - less than 20 yards?

Every Saturday morning, I teach archery to beginners. I've only had one lady who wanted to do it her way. She was kicked out of the archery range on her second visit. She was just not safe and could injure herself and others.

By the way, I am not a follower also - that is why I still can't swim 

Have fun!

-Jhoneil 
NFAA Level 2 Instructor


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## alanraw

WindWalker said:


> otacon122:
> 
> Ignore all this crap! Start with a draw-weight you can intially handle and then when you are ready to move up in draw-weight, simply change the string poundage. *Start with a 30# DW string and work your way up to a 50# or 60# string*.


Too funny!


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## WindWalker

> _Too funny!_


...


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## High Plains

otacon122 said:


> Actually, there is a specific draw weight law here - minimum 50# against elk, moose, and other large game and minimum 40# against deer. That's the thing you do not realize. Unless the bow is going to be used for competition only, then it has to be a minimum of 40# draw before its legal. The state enacted that law to "ensure that all animals are killed in an ethical and humane way" during hunting season.
> 
> The main reason I don't want to pay for lessons is because I do not have the money. Right now, money is my biggest limiting factor. You guys can sit here and b**** all you want, but unless you want to fork over several hundred dollars so I can get myself a bow, a couple dozen arrows, and some archery lessons, stop whining.


Elk and Moose in Kansas? Minimum weight in Colorado is 35#


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## thare1774

I realize Im a little late but I came across this thread while googling and Ocatoon, or whatever his name is, is a complete ******bag. He apparently can research something hes never done and know it better than those who have been doing it for years


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## littlelefty

Wow! I was almost asleep cruising thru this saga when I stumbled across Windwalker's reply. Had to do a double take there; I was like huh? Never heard of that kind of stri...hey, wait a minute.


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## LebeauHunter

This thread has comedic and instructional value. To be a spectator on Octo's first deer hunting foray into the woods. . . . 

I'm starting to shoot, but recognize from my first 10 years of hacktastic golfing that a coach can help a hell of a lot. I think shooting compound has helped some on form issues, but I'm messing around with issues like anchor point (thumb knuckle against cheek or finger against corner of mouth) and aiming. Are there any coaches or shooting groups in the Shreveport/Bossier area?

Also, Nuts and Bolts, I'm shooting a 43# at 28" recurve, and have about a 27.5"-28" draw. It doesn't seem like too much weight to practice with and I've shot a lot of arrows in the last 5 days or so. But from the posts it seems most people would say I'm overbowed to start. I don't doubt that lighter weight would help me groove form, but I don't feel like I'm struggling with weight issues (of course maybe this is why I need a coach or mentor). You talk about injury. I guess I am more concerned about that.


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## 1badwood

This is the most entertaining thread I've read in a long time!! I love it!


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## wberry85

1badwood said:


> This is the most entertaining thread I've read in a long time!! I love it!


x2...This thread made my night. I think we have a real life Napoleon Dynamite on our hands...


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## Soybeanio

I would say the PSE Buckeye. My friend and I both started with it. It's cheap, well made, and has a wide range of draw weights.


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## Bender

Oh Gawd! I had forgotten about this one!


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## Laud

Wow! I am so glad I read this thread. I am 6'0" and weigh 260#. I was thinking I needed to get at least a 60# starter bow. I think I'll start in the 30ish# range.

Thank you all for the lessons. Nuts and Bolts' info really slapped me in the brain.


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## Dad

Just a thought, You might want to save a little more and get a Hoyt Excel in black out and get into the ILF limb system. Limbs can be had for 90.00 to what ever you want to pay. Then a set for hunting and a lighter set. Bowhunting is a challenge all the way around. Compounds are easier to master than traditional. Some where the fun and excitement fulfillment and satification will take over. The thrill of bowhunting is getting close 20 yards or less and that is the challenge. What ever you do best wishes.


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## barnabasdb

Hello,
I'm a new archery and have had 2 private lessons and 2 group shoots with coaches. Last time out, I had a 28# bow which I felt comfortable with in the 1.5hr shoot. I'm looking at a Samick Sage in 35#s. I rock climb a lot so my fingers and back are in decent shape. Do you think that's an okay bow for me to learn on and grow into? Or should I wait until a 30# version comes back in stock? Or is there a bow that someone really recommends that I at least take a look at.

I'm set on....
Recurve
Take down
Cheaper is better, but not if it compromises quality to the point where it affects learning.


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## Thin Man

Welcome. 

You've had the great fortune to actually shoot a bow for an hour and a half under the eyes of a coach and notice how the poundage felt. You've probably answered your own question, also. 

You want a bow that allows you complete and comfortable control for daily, repetitive, and quality practice. The 30# Sage (or its cousin, the Samick Polaris) are fine bows to start with. Why go with 35# when you have observed the nature of a comfortable lower weight? That extra 5# becomes significant and to your disadvantage rather quickly into a session when attempting to master good archery technique.

There are lots of bow options, including the ILF styles where you can mix and match risers and limbs of different manufacturers. 

http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=1588147
This thread will give you lots more information about various bow choices. 

Good luck.


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## jusoldave

Wow! Congratulations on doing a thread search before posting, too! Talk about a Miracle Resurrection!

Seriously, I'll second what Thin had to say... all of it.

And welcome!


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