# NAA Investigation



## BHNTR1 (Apr 6, 2003)

My, My, This should get entertaining before to long. :zip:


----------



## Paradoxical Cat (Apr 25, 2006)

Do you have a link to this alleged filing? I can't find it.


----------



## Big Country (Apr 25, 2003)

TWEELOW, please provide a link to this info.

I am not disputing your claim, but this is just too serious to be left here without verification.

Thank`s...


----------



## TexARC (Mar 5, 2003)

http://www.gofourth.org is the website, I think, though I have not found anything pertinent there (yet) . Perhaps someone else will be more successful...


----------



## oldreliable67 (Mar 24, 2003)

Was browsing around the cited website, looking (unsuccessfully, so far) for info on the alleged embezzlement. Didn't find anything about that, but noticed who the County Clerk and Recorder is: none other than Bob Balink, former Executive Director of the NAA. (BTW, the county recorder function has nothing to do with any investigation or prosecution of the alleged incident.)


----------



## spangler (Feb 2, 2007)

http://adm2.elpasoco.com/countypres...TY&selectdept=all&selecttime=current&offset=0
http://www.elpasoco.com/

Those are the El Paso County websites. The search function on them shows nothing related to these claims.

Google links:
Searching the news: 
http://news.google.com/news?q=audit...US:official&client=firefox-a&um=1&sa=N&tab=wn
http://news.google.com/news?client=...ational+archery+association"&btnG=Search+News
http://news.google.com/news?client=...b=wn&q=archery+missing+money&btnG=Search+News


the web...
http://www.google.com/search?tab=nw...official&q=audit national archery association




Since you seem to know where information is Twee, how about providing it? Libel isn't a joke.

-Andrew


----------



## JOADMom (Jan 27, 2005)

*Board Elections Delayed*

http://usarchery.myicontrol.com/html/NominatingGovernance.html


----------



## BHNTR1 (Apr 6, 2003)

spangler said:


> http://adm2.elpasoco.com/countypres...TY&selectdept=all&selecttime=current&offset=0
> http://www.elpasoco.com/
> 
> Those are the El Paso County websites. The search function on them shows nothing related to these claims.
> ...





Spangler, Figure out the name of the person arrested and you can find all the info you want. This in fact did happen. I personally confirmed it with a reliable source at the Police department. (namely my brother who is a cop) :secret:

I doubt this will be the last arrest before this one is over with!


----------



## Miles Gloriosus (Feb 11, 2006)

This is the best topic ever. I sincerely hope that the NAA's top brass is linked to terrorism and a Jewish conspiracy against Aryan supremacy before this thread is deleted.


----------



## spangler (Feb 2, 2007)

BHNTR1 said:


> Spangler, Figure out the name of the person arrested and you can find all the info you want. This in fact did happen. I personally confirmed it with a reliable source at the Police department. (namely my brother who is a cop) :secret:
> 
> I doubt this will be the last arrest before this one is over with!


Interesting. So, who was arrested? Since you know and have confirmed it can you please provide the name? When did it happen?

-Andrew


----------



## Paradoxical Cat (Apr 25, 2006)

I am sorry, but this is getting to be "a friend of a friend of a friend of a friend's roomate told me, and I heard it on the corner, so it must be true."

If this is true, please post a link to a report, either in the media, the NAA website, or in court papers. These are serious allegations and, if false, may make this thread libelous.

PC-


----------



## Spots_N_Dots (Nov 10, 2005)

Wow,

I'd love to be the first one to say "I told you so", but it's probably best to hold off 'till it's in the news 

FYI, I believe if you want arrest records, you'll have to fill out the forms and pay the fee.....it's a mail thing.

I could be wrong, but in our state, it's not posted on the web.:sad:


----------



## spangler (Feb 2, 2007)

Spots_N_Dots said:


> Wow,
> 
> I'd love to be the first one to say "I told you so", but it's probably best to hold off 'till it's in the news
> 
> ...


Good point, but the office over there in El Paso County seems to be pretty darn good about posting news releases up about investigations and information. There is nothing about this alleged issue so far.

*shrug* If a quarter of a million dollars is found to be missing and arrests are made, the local reporters will be all over it. It will be in the news. I'll gladly accept that something fishy is going on at that point...but until then I wish this thread could be removed from existance. 

Right now Google shows nothing in the news about NAA and embezzelment, but soon it will show one thing, this thread where so far only unfounded claims have been made. This thread should be removed before google indexes it unless someone can provide proof of claims made.

-Andrew


----------



## target1 (Jan 16, 2007)

I heard about it too...but it is totally unsubstantiated.


----------



## c3hammer (Sep 20, 2002)

I called the district attourny's office. There is a case open and arrest made. The case number is 07CR3003.

It's a sad sad day 

pete


----------



## RecordKeeper (May 9, 2003)

I am going to leave this thread up for now.

Please, do NOT name names or post unsubstantiated speculation, or the thread will have to be locked or deleted.

Thanks,

RK
ArcheryTalk.com Administrator


----------



## Steve N (Apr 27, 2004)

I did a Google search for "07CR3003" and "el paso county", a search for "07CR3003" and "el paso", and aearch for "07CR300" and "docket" and go no results each time. I also did a search on http://www.elpasoco.com/ for "07CR300" and got nothing. However, if this still being investigate by the DA, there may be nothing on the web yet.


----------



## CM JOAD (Oct 9, 2005)

TWEELOW said:


> Now for the really juicy stuff. There was an independent audit of the NAA books and it seems as thought there is around 250,000.00 missing/in somebody elses pockets. No not a rumor but you can look up the info on the El paso County Court web page and find it there. Its all true. Seems to me that money was leaving and someone was sleeping or getting a take as well. No wounder people have been asked to leave and been told to keep there mouth shut if they know whats good for them.
> 
> As the NAA world turns. Should be interesting to see how this all shakes out. Looks like maybe this shake up has been long over due!


If true, this would certainly explain why the NAA needed so many "unfunded" events for compounders.


----------



## Archerone (Mar 30, 2006)

I called the Court and after a long wait gave them the Case number. It is a Case with two over $15,000 charges. I will not leave a name because I do not know this person and if they have any ties to the NAA.


----------



## CM JOAD (Oct 9, 2005)

Recordkeeper said:


> I am going to leave this thread up for now.
> 
> Please, do NOT name names or post unsubstantiated speculation, or the thread will have to be locked or deleted.
> 
> ...


It would seem to me that this is not the only thread that suffers from "unsubstantiated speculation". If you shut down all "unsubstantiated speculation", A/T would get substantially smaller.


----------



## RecordKeeper (May 9, 2003)

CM JOAD said:


> It would seem to me that this is not the only thread that suffers from "unsubstantiated speculation". If you shut down all "unsubstantiated speculation", A/T would get substantially smaller.


While there is certainly truth to the statement that there is "unsubstantiated speculation" on AT, our objective in this instance is to prevent unwarranted reputational (and perhaps even financial) harm to individuals and/organizations.

I'm sure we can all agree that this is a volatile and very sensitive matter. I'd rather not see rumor and innuendo fill the gaps in known facts.


----------



## CM JOAD (Oct 9, 2005)

Recordkeeper said:


> While there is certainly truth to the statement that there is "unsubstantiated speculation" on AT, our objective in this instance is to prevent unwarranted reputational (and perhaps even financial) harm to individuals and/organizations.
> 
> I'm sure we can all agree that this is a volatile and very sensitive matter. I'd rather not see rumor and innuendo fill the gaps in known facts.


Interesting! Without "unsubstantiated speculation", there hasn't been a post in over two hours!


----------



## Archerone (Mar 30, 2006)

CM JOAD said:


> Interesting! Without "unsubstantiated speculation", there hasn't been a post in over two hours!


The problem is that we do not have any official paperwork to back the reason that this person has been charged. The person had worked for the NAA and has been charged with two counts. That is where it ends for now until a news agency or a local goes to the Court and gets the official account to print. I do not think speculating the amount, the when, the where, and why does nothing but to add to the confusion.
Also I think the USOC, NAA, and Colorado Springs are going to keep this quiet because all scandals hurt their funding and the sport involved.


----------



## Hutnicks (Feb 9, 2006)

CM JOAD said:


> It would seem to me that this is not the only thread that suffers from "unsubstantiated speculation". If you shut down all "unsubstantiated speculation", A/T would get substantially smaller.


Are you saying then that AT is Unsubstantially large:wink:


----------



## Paradoxical Cat (Apr 25, 2006)

Hutnicks said:


> Are you saying then that AT is Unsubstantially large:wink:


I think that this is unsubstantiated speculation at best.:wink:


----------



## tedzpony (May 15, 2007)

I think what is probably most problematic about this thread, is that TWEELOW has not has the courtesy to return to answer the questions that are being asked about his assertions. Others have done some substantial legwork to learn case numbers, find out about arrests, etc., but all of that is still completely insubstantial when it comes to any details, which TWEELOW, right from the beginning, claimed to have seen. In fact, nothing that anyone has found out even proves that any of this has anything to do with NAA.

TWEELOW, you seem to have started a thread, stirred a pot of stew, and bailed out on it, having cast serious aspersions at a group of people who are, I am postive, very hard working and dedicated to their sport, to their jobs, and to their personal honor and integrity. It's time you be a man and either provide some proof of what you've said, or own up to your mistake an apologize.


----------



## Doc (Jun 10, 2003)

tedzpony said:


> I think what is probably most problematic about this thread, is that TWEELOW has not has the courtesy to return to answer the questions that are being asked about his assertions. Others have done some substantial legwork to learn case numbers, find out about arrests, etc., but all of that is still completely insubstantial when it comes to any details, which TWEELOW, right from the beginning, claimed to have seen. In fact, nothing that anyone has found out even proves that any of this has anything to do with NAA.
> 
> TWEELOW, you seem to have started a thread, stirred a pot of stew, and bailed out on it, having cast serious aspersions at a group of people who are, I am postive, very hard working and dedicated to their sport, to their jobs, and to their personal honor and integrity. It's time you be a man and either provide some proof of what you've said, or own up to your mistake an apologize.


Case numbers were provided and calls were made. We know the name of the individual directly related to the case number given and I can say the individual played a significant role at the NAA. I do not know the specifics or details; therefore until a press or court document is publicly released or acquired then we should not post any names.


----------



## Hutnicks (Feb 9, 2006)

Doc said:


> Case numbers were provided and calls were made. We know the name of the individual directly related to the case number given and I can say the individual played a significant role at the NAA. I do not know the specifics or details; therefore until a press or court document is publicly released or acquired then we should not post any names.


Jesus but these I've got a secret threads are becoming annoying. For all anyone knows Joe NAA could be fighting unpaid traffic fines on that docket!


----------



## Doc (Jun 10, 2003)

Hutnicks said:


> Jesus but these I've got a secret threads are becoming annoying. For all anyone knows Joe NAA could be fighting unpaid traffic fines on that docket!


I agree and I would prefer that people start a thread once they have confirmed substantiated information
Newspaper article
Press release
Court document and summary

And we would also prefer people refrain from using an ALTER username when starting sensitive threads like this. Therefore I am locking this one down until somebody PM's me bona-fide info on this one.


----------



## TWEELOW (Nov 30, 2005)

Sorry I have been slow in getting back here, but my job is very demanding. C3 Hammer has posted the case # that involves the individual who was arrested on the 23rd of this month. As far as the public records go, they are going to be slow in updating as there is a ongoing investigation. At this time I cant reveal my source in this matter but I will say it is a credible one, as she works in the court house. A phone call to the DA's office or the court house and you can get all the info you want on this case.

As BHNTR1 posted, you all should have seen this coming, He made valid points some time ago about what is going on in the NAA. Unfortunately I see a few more arrests coming before this is over with! 

As far as posting any court documents that are available I will not do that until this is farther down the road as I agree with Recordkeeper on keeping the name of the arrested person on the QT for now. Those that have fallowed the NAA problems and have paid attention to what has been going on have figured it out by now. Sorry that Im being a bit vague on this, its just the way it is for now. As far as you that are the arm chair investigators and are in disbelief and are looking for more proof, make the phone call to the DA,s office.


----------



## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

> make the phone call to the DA,s office.


Good idea! I know the DA I work with never has anything more important to do than to sit around and wait on hundreds of archers to call them, so they can spew out information about a case! 

John.


----------



## Jim C (Oct 15, 2002)

limbwalker said:


> Good idea! I know the DA I work with never has anything more important to do than to sit around and wait on hundreds of archers to call them, so they can spew out information about a case!
> 
> John.


The Court number is a public record and if you are willing to pay the fee you can pull up the docket. In my county such information if available for free


----------



## Archerone (Mar 30, 2006)

Jim C said:


> The Court number is a public record and if you are willing to pay the fee you can pull up the docket. In my county such information if available for free


If this happened on the 23rd then that is why it is not in the El Paso County Court online Case search. It has not had time to be entered into their online system.


----------



## Jim C (Oct 15, 2002)

Archerone said:


> If this happened on the 23rd then that is why it is not in the El Paso County Court online Case search. It has not had time to be entered into their online system.



dont know, the site i went to wanted a credit card. I don't know how busy the court system is there.


----------



## Archerone (Mar 30, 2006)

Jim C said:


> dont know, the site i went to wanted a credit card. I don't know how busy the court system is there.


Jim try this link,

http://www.co.el-paso.tx.us/JimsSearch/CrimminalRecordSearch.htm


----------



## Hutnicks (Feb 9, 2006)

So if in fact there is any reality to this being an ongoing investigtion, and more arrests are to be made. What is the implication when someone flees to Venezuela and claims they were tipped off by AT?


----------



## Hollywood (Oct 24, 2002)

Archerone said:


> Jim try this link,
> 
> http://www.co.el-paso.tx.us/JimsSearch/CrimminalRecordSearch.htm


Umm.....that link is for El Paso County, Texas.


----------



## Archerone (Mar 30, 2006)

Hollywood said:


> Umm.....that link is for El Paso County, Texas.


Ooops!!!!


----------



## BHNTR1 (Apr 6, 2003)

Hutnicks said:


> So if in fact there is any reality to this being an ongoing investigtion, and more arrests are to be made. What is the implication when someone flees to Venezuela and claims they were tipped off by AT?






Your just the realist aren't ya!!!! It amazes me how many people are still in denial about this. 



The system I used is Lexus-Nexus, Unfortunately your gonna need to pay a fee. As far as what Tweelow said about on going investigation..... :zip: :wink: Im sure if you all look deep enough you can figure the rest out. 


And no Im not posting what I have as not to jeopardize my sources job. :secret:


----------



## Hutnicks (Feb 9, 2006)

BHNTR1 said:


> Your just the realist aren't ya!!!! It amazes me how many people are still in denial about this.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Nobody is in denial about anything. Rather you are seeing the prudent course of action being taken which is to await verification. In other words _*let law enforcement and justice do their jobs.*_

Absolutely not one molecule of good can come from being the "first kid on your block" to post on an open forum about this. No good for the NAA no good for those involved and under investigation and certainly no good for those prosecuting the investigation. And certainly nothing beneficial to the Archery community in general.

Not posting to protect your souces job. Well that pretty much sums it up now doesn't it? If this was in fact above board, and in the public domain there would be no fear of reprisals, would there?


----------



## BHNTR1 (Apr 6, 2003)

Hutnicks said:


> Nobody is in denial about anything. Rather you are seeing the prudent course of action being taken which is to await verification. In other words _*let law enforcement and justice do their jobs.*_
> 
> 
> How much more verification do you want........07CR3003 is the case #. Several have called and verified it. My gosh you truely have missed the boat.
> ...



Very much above board............The case is available for public info. Look it up and pay the money.

BTW, Why do you have an empty profile, are you afraid someone might find out who you really are?????


----------



## tedzpony (May 15, 2007)

If anyone's "missed the boat," I would have to say it's those people who seem to have forgotten that in this country, our entire system of justice is based on the principle that a man is "innocent until proven guilty."

Perhaps it would be better for all involved if that were remembered, so that our justice system can work the way it is intended, without speculation and false accusations being allowed to proliferate. A case file number and an arrest do not prove wrong-doing, anymore than an unfounded accusation.

There may be something going on, and there may not be -- when all is said and done, and the legal system has been alowed to work as it is designed, then we'll all know the truth.


----------



## Big Country (Apr 25, 2003)

BHNTR1 said:


> Very much above board............The case is available for public info. Look it up and pay the money.
> 
> BTW, Why do you have an empty profile, are you afraid someone might find out who you really are?????



I don`t care who we are friends with.....do not go down this road.


----------



## Archerone (Mar 30, 2006)

There have been plenty of discussions here about NAA problems and the lack of transparency. It is no secret that it has been a thorn to many. Now the new news of an arrest and the reasons new elections are happening just before that will fan that fire.


----------



## CM JOAD (Oct 9, 2005)

tedzpony said:


> If anyone's "missed the boat," I would have to say it's those people who seem to have forgotten that in this country, our entire system of justice is based on the principle that a man is "innocent until proven guilty."
> 
> Perhaps it would be better for all involved if that were remembered, so that our justice system can work the way it is intended, without speculation and false accusations being allowed to proliferate. A case file number and an arrest do not prove wrong-doing, anymore than an unfounded accusation.
> 
> There may be something going on, and there may not be -- when all is said and done, and the legal system has been alowed to work as it is designed, then we'll all know the truth.


Right On!

... signed O.J. Simpson


----------



## Selil (Sep 5, 2005)

tedzpony said:


> ...Perhaps it would be better for all involved if that were remembered, so that our justice system can work the way it is intended, without speculation and false accusations being allowed to proliferate. A case file number and an arrest do not prove wrong-doing, anymore than an unfounded accusation...



Actually you're wrong if you think we should wait until the trial or after to get involved and scrutinize the facts of the case. The entire concept of a jury of your peers, no closed courts, several states with sunshine laws, open records laws, and FOIA are about opening the system of government to public scrutiny. Specifically criminal and civil trials are open to scrutiny as secret courts until recently were pretty much banned.

The ENTIRE system is set up for open involvement of the public. Does it make law enforcements job, and the court systems job tougher? Absolutely, and that is as it should be. The court system in America is an adversarial system where speculation and false accusations should be expected. There is no place for "political correctness" once the investigations have proceeded to the charge phase. 

The only thing that keeping quiet about the situation that will occur is serving the NAA's interest at the expense of the individual involved. 

The inherent rush to judgment by those so inclined is that the person is guilty and the NAA is a victim. What if the person is the victim and being used by the NAA as a fall guy/person for a massive cash short fall? This wouldn't be the first time a struggling organization offered up a minion as a sacrificial lamb. 

Then again the person could be a guilty bugger, but trust is lacking in this situation. With the lack of transparency by the NAA, the outright hostility to previous threads on governance, the negative comments made about previous members, and the veracity of the NAA executives already in question the victim is likely the members of the NAA in any case.


----------



## BHNTR1 (Apr 6, 2003)

Great Post Selil. This couldnt have been worded any better!!!!


----------



## Archerone (Mar 30, 2006)

Selil, nice way to say it!


----------



## Tony_zelah (Apr 26, 2003)

Two questions whats the NAA? Secondly if one or more people have/will be going before the judiciary are they not Innocent untill their found guilty?


----------



## sundevilarchery (May 27, 2005)

Tony_zelah said:


> Two questions whats the NAA? Secondly if one or more people have/will be going before the judiciary are they not Innocent untill their found guilty?


As a criminal lawyer... in theory, yes. In reality, well? In the courtroom (on the defense side), it's usually an up-hill battle, not a down-hill one, for acquittal. 

It certainly happens that innocent people can be charged with a crime because of circumstances rather than tangible facts... no, I take that back, it happens alot. Then there are the technicalities and intent/knowledge issues... sometimes people are guilty of a crime, but didn't know or intend that that they were committing a crime (these break my heart - criminal by accident). And innocent people are investigated ALL the time! MANY, MANY people are cleared at those early stages (which is why I choose to wait and see what actually happens here with these allegations before looking into the facts myself)... BUT... if charges are brought, then there must be "probable cause." That's not guilt, but probable cause worries me none the less.

I have to take a wait and see attitude here (which again, for those who know me, is rare).


----------



## Archerone (Mar 30, 2006)

Tony_zelah said:


> Two questions whats the NAA? Secondly if one or more people have/will be going before the judiciary are they not Innocent untill their found guilty?


The NAA is the USA National Archery Association. It is not the person that is charged that is being discussed as much as the issue of the alleged money missing and the NAA's staff involvement in it or lack of. The charges just show that there is at least $30,000 USD involved.


----------



## spangler (Feb 2, 2007)

Tweelow and Bhnter,

If something is going on (and it is starting to sound like something sure is) then we sure we believe it and try to get the facts. Nobody is in denial. We just want better information than "you can trust me, I talked to someone who knows but I can't say any more *wink* *wink*"

The problem is that both of you seem to be all excited to post inflammatory posts designed to get everyone all riled up and then try to leak just enough to try to get everyone to ask more. It sounds like a bunch of 5th grade girls whispering rumors about who kissed who or who asked who to the dance. They don't care if the information is accurate, they just want to be the first to tell it because it makes them feel important.

Instead of trying to get everyone inflamed, or whipped up, just wait until some facts come out and they can be evaluated. Don't worry, we will all remember that you said it first. It sounds like that is important to you.

If you can't name sources without getting them in trouble, you should realize that you are involved in breaking at least rules and possibly laws. People who leak information they are privy to and shouldn't be talking about disgust me. Furthermore, you can't trust that information which is why we are skeptical of your claims. You can't trust information from a person who is so unscrupulous to provide it when they are breaking rules to do so, they have ALREADY proven themselves unreliable by giving information they were entrusted to keep safe.

Please note that I am NOT calling either of your unscrupulous or disgusting, just your sources. I am not disputing your claims either, just saying that providing it now, without any more information than your guesses about what might be going on is irresponsible at best.

I'm sure you will both be offended at the above, and that wasn't my intention. I'm just trying to make you understand where us "armchair detectives" who are interested in facts and other silly things like that are coming from.

-Andrew


----------



## spangler (Feb 2, 2007)

Selil said:


> Actually you're wrong if you think we should wait until the trial or after to get involved and scrutinize the facts of the case. The entire concept of a jury of your peers, no closed courts, several states with sunshine laws, open records laws, and FOIA are about opening the system of government to public scrutiny. Specifically criminal and civil trials are open to scrutiny as secret courts until recently were pretty much banned.


I don't think anyone is saying we should wait until the case is over before we talk about it, maybe I misread though. I think what he was saying is that we should base any discussion upon the FACTS and not upon guesses which often fly very *wide* of the mark in reality.

-Andrew


----------



## BHNTR1 (Apr 6, 2003)

spangler said:


> Tweelow and Bhnter,
> 
> If something is going on (and it is starting to sound like something sure is) then we sure we believe it and try to get the facts. Nobody is in denial. We just want better information than "you can trust me, I talked to someone who knows but I can't say any more *wink* *wink*"
> 
> ...





Spangler, Im not even going to be close to offended by what you wrote. I revealed on of my sources all ready in an earlier post. The court Docket# 07CR3003 is public info. The only problem is that the arrest was made on the 23rd of this last week and the free info is not available as yet. Im not spending money on Lexus-Nexus just to post the info on here. Also another member called the court house and verified the case number and the info. That has been posted also.

I can assure you once I get something from the court house I can post I will share it. 


As far as being the first to post for the fame and glory, I could care less. Its important to me to get info to the members given that the NAA board cares to be non-transparent. 

If you have followed the problems as long as I have I feel you would understand were Im coming from(I hope you do anyway). Hopefully Ill have something in writing by weeks end that can be publicly shared.:wink:


----------



## Hutnicks (Feb 9, 2006)

BHNTR1 said:


> Very much above board............The case is available for public info. Look it up and pay the money.
> 
> BTW, Why do you have an empty profile, are you afraid someone might find out who you really are?????


Why indeed should I pay the money? You are the insistant instigator here not me. I would think that the burden is upon you or do you own the only machine on the planet without "cut and paste".

How much verification do I want? Very little, if in fact this is an ongoing investigation with outstanding warrants, then this thread should have been killed at the first post. If it is a done deal then the first post should have been the press release from the DA. As it is AT here is just being used to form a whole new species of Yellow Journalism and that is tragic.



> I truely disagree here, Cancer is cured from within, this is the start of the NAA getting fixed....... And plenty good can come from this, Its called transparency, Something the NAA and the lame duck BOG dont have.
> Informing the membership of what is happening goes a long ways. You must not be one for open communication, but yet one who believes in knowledge being power. As long as you have it no one else can get it!!!!!!!!!!!!



You actually believe you are going to fix the NAA by prematurely disclosing "information" about an _investigation_? Forget due process, or guilt or innocence for that matter, stir up the NAA membership and archery community in general before any legal proof has been offered and before the people whose job it is to sort the facts out have been allowed to do their jobs? And your going to fix what exactly? Knock yourself out!

Open communication infers an exchange of information, thus far you have provided none whatsoever. Knowledge being power, sure, but partial knowledge is absolutely dangerous, you would do well to learn that. 



> As long as you have it no one else can get it!!!!!!!!!!


 Please do not project your actions to me. I never claimed knowledge here, you did. I am not playing "I've got a secret" you are, and no amount of exclamation marks changes that.

You bring up my profile as if it has any relevance, yet you jumped on this thread like a cat on a mouse when it was started by a user with 14 posts. Please!


----------



## TWEELOW (Nov 30, 2005)

*You wanted proof, Here it is*

OK you all are asking for proof its coming. As soon as I can get the file to upload its all yours. Its about twice the size this system will handle. It will be posted by tomarrow AM.


Huntnicks, a persons post count shouldnt have any thing to do with his/her credibility!


----------



## Archerone (Mar 30, 2006)

TWEELOW said:


> OK you all are asking for proof its coming. As soon as I can get the file to upload its all yours. Its about twice the size this system will handle. It will be posted by tomarrow AM.
> 
> 
> Huntnicks, a persons post count shouldnt have any thing to do with his/her credibility!


TWEELOW, Just not let it be personal which others want it to be to discredit the poster. I think the information is good but wait until the information is credible.


----------



## spangler (Feb 2, 2007)

Archerone said:


> TWEELOW, Just not let it be personal which others want it to be to discredit the poster. I think the information is good but wait until the information is credible.


I don't think anyone wants to discredit anyone. I'd just like supportable facts and not unfounded accusations.

-Andrew


----------



## Hutnicks (Feb 9, 2006)

TWEELOW said:


> OK you all are asking for proof its coming. As soon as I can get the file to upload its all yours. Its about twice the size this system will handle. It will be posted by tomarrow AM.
> 
> 
> Huntnicks, a persons post count shouldnt have any thing to do with his/her credibility!


You are taking that the wrong way Twee. I was using that to illustrate how _ridiculous it is _to use the profile of post count as any sort or credibility metric. I am on record here as saying that if the ghost of Fred Bear came on and offered hunting advice in his first post, he'd get slammed for being a newbie with a low post count Sorry if you took offense, none was intended.

Once again, The prudent course of action would have been to* start* the thread with the relevant documentation.


----------



## CM JOAD (Oct 9, 2005)

A lot has been said about the great foundation of our Justice System. We have another great foundation....Freedom of Speech.

Tweelow and BHNTRY are free to speak about what they feel strongly about. Others are free to disagree. Neither side is all right of all wrong. What is wrong is when one side tries to silence the other. Agree to disagree and don't take it personal.

The details will come along soon enough. Just be thankful that we live in a country that this kind of discussion can take place without having the government hunt us down.


----------



## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

I've never been able to understand why people watch daytime soap operas.

Still don't understand it. And that's what this thread reminds me of...

John.


----------



## FLarcherymom (Jun 10, 2007)

limbwalker said:


> I've never been able to understand why people watch daytime soap operas.
> 
> Still don't understand it. And that's what this thread reminds me of...
> 
> John.


Or why people were glued to the TV during the OJ trial. Still an unknown to me as well.


----------



## Hutnicks (Feb 9, 2006)

limbwalker said:


> I've never been able to understand why people watch daytime soap operas.
> 
> Still don't understand it. And that's what this thread reminds me of...
> 
> John.


John, If I lived near you, I'd suggest we take a couple of barebow's out and go shooting instead, much more entertaining:embara:


----------



## Archerone (Mar 30, 2006)

Archerone said:


> TWEELOW, Just not let it be personal which others want it to be to discredit the poster. I think the information is good but wait until the information is credible.


I am sorry but I did not write this [email protected]#T. I do not know how the sentence was changed after personal. IT is 11:27pm and I am looking at this and I did not write this last part. I will have to change my password to this forum.


----------



## Archerone (Mar 30, 2006)

Sorry but I rented and watched a couple of movies until 11:30 pm with my wife and came back and checked the thread. I read the thread and I did not write the sentence after personal. It was worded in a way which was all right with me but not in my words. I do not know who changed it but I will not let others think that I wrote it.


----------



## tjk009 (Feb 15, 2007)

I thought I'd add a few thoughts to this fascinating thread. I've been doing corporate and criminal law a long time, archery much less. I'd like to point out the two separate things are going on here. First, it seems money may have been misappropriated, a problem for all members of NAA. Second, a person affiliated with NAA may have been involved, a problem for that person which will be addressed in the criminal justice system with a caption of State v. Badperson. 

These related issues have resolutions totally unrelated each other, unless a conspiracy theory is forthcoming. The first problem can addressed by the NAA. Either the money is there or it isn't. Generally members of organizations can request the Board provide an accounting, in fact most organizations are required to do so annually. I will admit to not being familar with the specific provisions regarding this, however it has been mentioned the Board or NAA may have not been forthcoming about certain issues. 

If money is missing, or creative accounting has occurred it is up to the members, through the Board, to modify the bylaws to provide oversight of those who collect, keep, and spend our money. The bylaws or operating agreement of an organization can make Officers, and Directors personally liable for malfeasance of their responsibility to their members or shareholders. Many states have similar statutes. If indeed an arrest has occurred probable cause exists that a person misappropriated NAA funds. Then the Board and Officers are on notice a problem exists and the organization structure, and possibly the governing procedures need attention to prevent a similar occurance in the future. Malfeasance by the Board or Officers may require action by the members separately. That action often being civil, but can also be related to the criminal action. It seems prudent the upcoming elections are postponed pending the results of an accounting and the on-going investigation.

On the criminal side of things. Our justice system is flawed, but is better than most so until someone has a better idea we must go with it. As also noted by O.J. among others guilt and innocence are interesting concepts but really provide little help for victims or those harmed financially by others. If indeed NAA is victim, collecting a judgment after a conviction isn't easy. And, people can be guilty but unless that guilt is proven "beyond a reasonable doubt" we are in civil court. There we have is it "more likely than not" someone took the money. If the answer is yes, then we again trying to collect a judgment. Our friend O.J. plays golf every day under a 33M judgment. Attorney fees and costs are more than the judgment in many cases. 

Again, it is important to focus on the two separate issues. One we have control over, one is out of our hands. Is the money gone? If so, lets make sure it doesn't happen again. The post today about scholarships, or lack thereof, gives yet another reason to fix our organization. If our "papers" need changing, lets do it - a sentence here or there is all it takes. If our "people" need changing because they didn't do their job, let's vote for folks willing to do the job. I will note being a director or officer it is often a thankless, time-consuming job. 

If the money is gone, it is likely gone for good. It is society's job, through the police and district attorney's office to investigate and then person should be tried and if convicted should pay us back as they can. We limp away to shoot another day, wiser for the experience. To those who acted as the "canaries in the coal mine" thank you for the head's up. We need to see the checkbook and look at our rules, and maybe our procedures. To those who insist the system run its long, arduous and uncertain course, it can do just that but
with organization repairs done. That's my twenty cents, now back to killing targets.


----------



## Selil (Sep 5, 2005)

tjk009 said:


> That's my twenty cents, now back to killing targets.


Actually after reading that if you're a corporate attorney it's more lie $137.50 billed on the quarter hour.


----------



## TWEELOW (Nov 30, 2005)

Im still trying to get the copy of the court docket posted but am having trouble making it small enough. Its a nero snapshot viewer thingy. anyone have any Ideas????? Thanks


----------



## BHNTR1 (Apr 6, 2003)

Tweelow, Email it to me and Ill see what I can do. You may have to host it on one of those picture sites and then post a link to it.


[email protected]


----------



## Archerone (Mar 30, 2006)

Archerone said:


> Sorry but I rented and watched a couple of movies until 11:30 pm with my wife and came back and checked the thread. I read the thread and I did not write the sentence after personal. It was worded in a way which was all right with me but not in my words. I do not know who changed it but I will not let others think that I wrote it.


LOL Mystery solved! My wife completed it correcting my grammer and sent it. I knew it was not me. I just was not paying attention when she asked me if I was done on the computer. She meant the letter that I had not posted. That's a retired school teacher for you.


----------



## TexARC (Mar 5, 2003)

looks like there is some pruning/editing/deleting going on in this thread...??

Regardless, I have a heavy heart at this point to see an organization that I cherish foundering so badly in so many ways. Though I like and respect many there, I feel let down by just about everyone in authority at the NAA for a variety of reasons. 

Depressed as I am, I also think that it mirrors the country as a whole: there is apparently no accountability for poor performance for CEOs, for congress, for our supreme court, for our justice department, and especially, for our executive branch. It's as if the NAA's predicament is just a symptom of a much bigger disease infecting us/US right now. I guess I just need the caffeine to kick in this morning...:BangHead::BangHead::BangHead::tea:


----------



## BHNTR1 (Apr 6, 2003)

*Tweelows Link*

OK, I got the info from tweelow and have posted it to photobucket. If I did this right this should be the link to it. 

I hold no resposibility to the accuracy of this information. Also my appolagies as the arrest date I posted was in error, looks like I fat fingered a number.



http://s202.photobucket.com/albums/aa71/BHNTR1/?action=view&current=kathleeenrecord.jpg


----------



## TWEELOW (Nov 30, 2005)

Thanks BH, looks like the link is working. I hope that this clears up any of the credibility or lack there of about what is being posted. Most of you are correct, This should have been in the first post, I hope that this opens some eyes as to the problems within the NAA. We as members need to take back our organization. Its ours not theres. A system with greater accountability is needed. The way it is will never prove to be more then a system of mediocrity, and that's just not good enough!


----------



## SuperX (May 21, 2002)

This looks like a case of an individual who betrayed the trust of her employers and of the archery community, NOT a case of the NAA doing anything wrong. I am sure they feel as betrayed as we do and there is nothing you can do as a company or an organization to account for the integrity of individuals. It looks like the audits they conduct to catch these sorts of things were successful in doing so. 

Time to stand back and let the legal system take its course and stop the handwringing about the poor NAA.


----------



## RecordKeeper (May 9, 2003)

SuperX said:


> This looks like a case of an individual who betrayed the trust of her employers and of the archery community, NOT a case of the NAA doing anything wrong. I am sure they feel as betrayed as we do and there is nothing you can do as a company or an organization to account for the integrity of individuals. It looks like the audits they conduct to catch these sorts of things were successful in doing so.
> 
> Time to stand back and let the legal system take its course and stop the handwringing about the poor NAA.


Though I don't know the specifics of this case, I can speak in general terms about the establishment of proper internal controls and oversight procedures.

Management of any organization is responsible for establishing a system of controls sufficient to reasonably detect/prevent embezzlement. If the organization is too small to establish an effective system of dual controls, then very close oversight is necessary. This should include very closely reviewing and testing general ledger and bank account reconcilements, as well as reviewing every accounting entry that impacts expenses.

I have no idea what controls the NAA has in place. My post is intended only to be informative regarding how this should be done.

I'm very sorry to see this all unfolding. It surely will cast a black eye upon an organization that I care deeply about.


----------



## SuperX (May 21, 2002)

Recordkeeper said:


> Though I don't know the specifics of this case, I can speak in general terms about the establishment of proper internal controls and oversight procedures.
> 
> Management of any organization is responsible for establishing a system of controls sufficient to reasonably detect/prevent embezzlement. If the organization is too small to establish an effective system of dual controls, then very close oversight is necessary. This should include very closely reviewing and testing general ledger and bank account reconcilements, as well as reviewing every accounting entry that impacts expenses.
> 
> ...


any time great responsibility and trust is given to an individual, the risk of such betrayal is possible. The system caught the issue in time, but my experience is that when you are the person who controls the information the difficulty of catching you increases significantly.

Again, this is allegedly a thief who was uncovered for who they are and as such is an individual issue and not an organizational one. There isn't a more buttoned down org in archery than the NAA/USOC/FITA troika. Without knowing the details of how the system failed, I can not see what more they could do.


----------



## FLarcherymom (Jun 10, 2007)

SuperX said:


> any time great responsibility and trust is given to an individual, the risk of such betrayal is possible. The system caught the issue in time, but my experience is that when you are the person who controls the information the difficulty of catching you increases significantly.
> 
> Again, this is allegedly a thief who was uncovered for who they are and as such is an individual issue and not an organizational one. There isn't a more buttoned down org in archery than the NAA/USOC/FITA troika. Without knowing the details of how the system failed, I can not see what more they could do.


I agree completely. I handle insurance claims and we have to handle "employee dishonesty" claims a lot. I do not know the details of this event but I do not think anyone has the right to start blaming anyone else at this point, at least until more is known about this situation. Just remember that the current office is made up of TWO people. 

It is hard to understand, I can't think of much in this world that is worth JAIL time.


----------



## RecordKeeper (May 9, 2003)

FLarcherymom said:


> I agree completely. I handle insurance claims and we have to handle "employee dishonesty" claims a lot. I do not know the details of this event but I do not think anyone has the right to start blaming anyone else at this point, at least until more is known about this situation. Just remember that the current office is made up of TWO people.
> 
> It is hard to understand, I can't think of much in this world that is worth JAIL time.


I agree. I cannot imagine any amount of money that would be sufficient to give up freedom and family.:sad:


----------



## BHNTR1 (Apr 6, 2003)

SuperX said:


> any time great responsibility and trust is given to an individual, the risk of such betrayal is possible. The system caught the issue in time, but my experience is that when you are the person who controls the information the difficulty of catching you increases significantly.
> 
> Again, this is allegedly a thief who was uncovered for who they are and as such is an individual issue and not an organizational one. There isn't a more buttoned down org in archery than the NAA/USOC/FITA troika. Without knowing the details of how the system failed, I can not see what more they could do.





SuperX, I have to disagree here. We have a BOG that is supposed to oversee what the office does and that includes were/how the money is spent. The accuracy of the books is part of the BOG's responsibility. If the person or persons in charge would have been doing there part rather then just having a title maybe this wouldn't have happened. But then again maybe they didnt have the experience to do so. (just speculation) Being a 501C it seems some were the checks and balance system failed on this one. Say what you will, but there is an accountability problem here, from the top right down to the last person responsible for oversight.


----------



## Archerone (Mar 30, 2006)

SuperX said:


> any time great responsibility and trust is given to an individual, the risk of such betrayal is possible. The system caught the issue in time, but my experience is that when you are the person who controls the information the difficulty of catching you increases significantly.
> 
> Again, this is allegedly a thief who was uncovered for who they are and as such is an individual issue and not an organizational one. There isn't a more buttoned down org in archery than the NAA/USOC/FITA troika. Without knowing the details of how the system failed, I can not see what more they could do.


I see a lot of assumptions in your statement. Did the system catch it or did a shake-up in the NAA find it? The amount of money taken(over $30,000.and could be quite a larger sum) was not a small amount. Did they catch it in time and is there any money recovered?
Even in our small clubs and other Associations we have monthly meetings going over our financial status. Our Budget/funding for the year is set. The NAA office has paid personnel to manage it's business full time. So if not at the top where does the responsibility of oversight start or end?
If you look at the date of one of the Charges it looks like 1999. Did it take 8 years to find this out?


----------



## ohioarcher300 (Oct 10, 2005)

*soap*



limbwalker said:


> I've never been able to understand why people watch daytime soap operas.
> 
> Still don't understand it. And that's what this thread reminds me of...
> 
> John.


then why are reading and typing on it. it must intrust you.


----------



## G33k (Jul 16, 2003)

Archerone said:


> I see a lot of assumptions in your statement. Did the system catch it or did a shake-up in the NAA find it?


Oh you are a smart cookie to ask that question. No good deed goes unpunished 

Well the cat is finally out of the bag. Hopefully once the matter is settled everyones questions will be answered. I could volunteer up information but I don't want to say anything that might interfere with the police investigation.


----------



## monty53 (Jun 19, 2002)

limbwalker said:


> I've never been able to understand why people watch daytime soap operas.
> 
> Still don't understand it.
> John.


Now you do!.........:wink:


----------



## c3hammer (Sep 20, 2002)

I also disagree SuperX. The name of the game here is not to point fingers, but it is to sort out responsibility and develope proceedures on how to prevent such a thing from happening again.

This one has been going on for years and is in the hundred(s) thousand(s) of dollar range, allegedly. The system didn't work and needs to be fixed.

With new elections coming up and a complete overhaul of the NAA by-laws on tap, the mechanism that allowed something like this to happen must be brought to light and fixed.

Cheers,
Pete


----------



## FLarcherymom (Jun 10, 2007)

c3hammer said:


> I also disagree SuperX. The name of the game here is not to point fingers, but it is to sort out responsibility and develope proceedures on how to prevent such a thing from happening again.
> 
> This one has been going on for years and is in the hundred(s) thousand(s) of dollar range, allegedly. The system didn't work and needs to be fixed.
> 
> ...


I don't think SuperX was stating otherwise. But I have been at two different companies that had someone stealing funds. One of them was over $250,000, she went to jail and when she got out she came by the office "to visit". The CEO escorted her out himself. To say that he was personally responsible is crazy. To say you don't put better checks and balances in place to prevent it again would also be crazy. What we need to do now is move forward and put a good solid board in place and then support the H*@L out of them. No more whining and crying over spilled milk. Pick up and move forward and make the organization stronger and better as result.


----------



## SuperX (May 21, 2002)

c3hammer said:


> I also disagree SuperX. The name of the game here is not to point fingers, but it is to sort out responsibility and develope proceedures on how to prevent such a thing from happening again.
> 
> This one has been going on for years and is in the hundred(s) thousand(s) of dollar range, allegedly. The system didn't work and needs to be fixed.
> 
> ...


If you have ever been embezzeled, you may not appreciate the sentiment that it was your fault. I hope you never find yourself blamed for the criminal behavior of someone you trusted be it your employees or your family members. 

I think it is obvious there are other agendas being played out here even though this is the kind of thing that can happen in any company.


----------



## Selil (Sep 5, 2005)

SuperX said:


> If you have ever been embezzeled, you may not appreciate the sentiment that it was your fault. I hope you never find yourself blamed for the criminal behavior of someone you trusted be it your employees or your family members.
> 
> I think it is obvious there are other agendas being played out here even though this is the kind of thing that can happen in any company.




There are mechanisms that can be put into place and legally should be in place that protect companies and organizations from internal theft. The FBI crime statistics for white collar crime specifically state that almost ALL white collar crime is perpetrated from the inside by a trusted employee. The auditing mechanisms to protect and find that kind of theft have been known since the modern age of accounting began.

If this is a crime against the NAA, and it has been occurring since 1999. Then it is indicative malfeasance of the highest order by the NAA for the last 8 years. There is no possible way that apropriate accounting and legal accounting practices with oversight as required for a non-profit could have missed finding any substantial sums of missing money for that long of period. 

The problem has stretched over many administrations and changes in governance by the NAA and as such can only be attributed to either ignorance, willful neglect, or criminal intent. The lack of transparency at the NAA, poor communications, a Luddite mentality to dealing with Internet and media, along with some amount of arrogance does not create a respectful or trusting atmosphere. 

Something is up at NAA

Jane Johnson is the new NAA president succeeding Lloyd Brown (Link)

Elections have been suspended (Link) and no new information posted as promised. 

Now a former front office worker is indicted for multiple counts of a fairly serious financial crime. 

Never mind that in previous discussions the NAA complained of a $250K shortfall. 

I sure wish the NAA would be more open to transactional communication rather than hiding behind crony'ism and an enforced veil of silence. We vote for board members to represent us not dictate to us what ever shall pass.


----------



## SuperX (May 21, 2002)

Selil said:


> There is no possible way that apropriate accounting and legal accounting practices with oversight as required for a non-profit could have missed finding any substantial sums of missing money for that long of period.
> 
> The problem has stretched over many administrations and changes in governance by the NAA and as such can only be attributed to either ignorance, willful neglect, or criminal intent.


Are you saying that others at the NAA knowingly looked the other way or were in on the crime??


----------



## G33k (Jul 16, 2003)

Good thing that Lloyd (as president of the board) wanted to get the budget balanced (which he did). Him and the board brought in a CPA, thank goodness, huh?


----------



## SuperX (May 21, 2002)

G33k said:


> Good thing that Lloyd (as president of the board) wanted to get the budget balanced (which he did). Him and the board brought in a CPA, thank goodness, huh?


No kidding! Too bad it wasn't done earlier but those sorts of things always look obvious in hind sight. the person in question was the financial officer for the company so they had unique access to the books. 

They should have brought in RK :tongue:


----------



## Big Country (Apr 25, 2003)

SuperX said:


> Are you saying that others at the NAA knowingly looked the other way or were in on the crime??


That is CLEARLY NOT what he is saying, or alluding to.

What he did CLEARLY state, is that if this pilfering of funds has gone on for any substantial length of time....and I will interject this, over 30 days......then the NAA is indeed guilty of neglect at a minimum.

You can remove the NAA from this discussion, and insert ANY company. There is no way that something like what is being described here should have ever been allowed to happen.

If this is true, then there are a lot of people who really dropped the ball.


----------



## BHNTR1 (Apr 6, 2003)

G33k said:


> Good thing that Lloyd (as president of the board) wanted to get the budget balanced (which he did). Him and the board brought in a CPA, thank goodness, huh?




Thanks for passing this along G33K but I dont think Llyod had the full support of all the board members on this one. There was was Llyod and a couple that made this happen with an independent firm. The rest fought it. Correct me if Im wrong but I think Im close to being correct on this one!:wink:

For those with a criminal law back round, Answer this question please. How much liability falls on the board member or members responsible for the oversight of the books? I would think that there has to be some kind of accountability for what has happened here. I also dont think that with the amount of money that was alleged to have been taken that she pulled this off on her own. Just food for thought.


----------



## FLarcherymom (Jun 10, 2007)

Big Country said:


> If this is true, then there are a lot of people who really dropped the ball.


This statement goes to show your experience in dealing with this type of crime. How many of these, exactly, have you investigated?


----------



## Big Country (Apr 25, 2003)

FLarcherymom said:


> This statement goes to show your experience in dealing with this type of crime. How many of these, exactly, have you investigated?


I have only dealt with ONE embezzlement case in my life. It was as a board member of a sportsmans club with only 700 members.

The embezzlement was caught in less than 45 days.

Also, that statement does not have to come from experience with embezzlement cases. In fact, that statement comes from many years experience from a management postion with a company that is rather large.

Embezzlement of funds should have been caught in short order.


----------



## Archerone (Mar 30, 2006)

Lloyd had taken a risk doing what he done, but he was popular enough with the general people so the BOG did not stop him.
I ran for the BOG in 1997, 1999, and put my name in 2001 before withdrawing it. I was an outsider because of my compound advocacy. We changed over to recurve in 1997. It was not a simple thing for me to even get my name on the ballot. There were small but annoying road blocks such as commitees/select people to go through. In 2001 I documented these road blocks with names places and times. I next sent a letter to the President of the NAA with my frustration. I have the copy. It is the mindset of plenty of long timers that the system works great for them and why change!
The Bylaws of the NAA made change and challenge to the status quo impossible. At anytime the other BOG members can vote you out for not going along with what they want to do and going to the membership with it. That is why transparency could not happen. When is the last time a BOG member openly went public with their disapproval of the running of the NAA? It would be considered against the overall good of archery. It would be a voting out of the NAA behind closed doors offense. That one clause is why I withdrew knowing that I could not do nothing if voted in and having to keep my mouth shut.


----------



## sundevilarchery (May 27, 2005)

To answer somebody's questions earlier (and *THIS IS NOT LEGAL ADVICE *AND LAWS VARY FROM STATE TO STATE)...

Embezzlement and theft can be a couple of things... and _even with the document_, I don't think it's clear yet what the facts are, so no judgments on my part here... It can be that a person takes money from the company and puts it to his/her own pocket in some way. It also can be that a person moves money from account to account and it's his/her name on the transfers, so he/she is responsible because that act of juggling the money is not OK.

Legally, liability occurs for the overseers if they had knowledge of the act and complacently let it continue, or if they instructed the person to do the act. There may be some other instances, but it becomes tougher.

In short, anything could have happened here. I am still not willing to jump in in support or accusation of the individual or the organization. Without more, I certainly can't tell who is the good guy and who is the bad guy... or, for the matter, if this still might be a giant misunderstanding.


----------



## Hutnicks (Feb 9, 2006)

sundevilarchery said:


> To answer somebody's questions earlier (and *THIS IS NOT LEGAL ADVICE *AND LAWS VARY FROM STATE TO STATE)...
> 
> Embezzlement and theft can be a couple of things... and _even with the document_, I don't think it's clear yet what the facts are, so no judgments on my part here... It can be that a person takes money from the company and puts it to his/her own pocket in some way. It also can be that a person moves money from account to account and it's his/her name on the transfers, so he/she is responsible because that act of juggling the money is not OK.
> 
> ...


I have to agree with you here SDA (sorry for the brev.) Until all the information has been collected and or extracted and put into context there really is not enough here to form an opinion as to guilt who what how big how small how widespread.

I really hope this is not a large issue. I would hate to have the 13 nanoseconds of olympic coverage next summer be "Heres the US team, emerging from a scandal, what sports!"

As for embezzlement being easy to detect. Really depends on the amount and duration. In this day and age with petty cash vouchers good for up to a grand and electronic money movement, not too hard to skim over a long period of time.


----------



## BHNTR1 (Apr 6, 2003)

*Does anyone know!!!!*

Are we still having a membership meeting on Aug 9 as advertised? Given that the election has been postponed and the current board is lame duck It would be nice to know in advance. I saw Jane was lurking earlier, maybe she could shed some light on this for us!!!


----------



## Selil (Sep 5, 2005)

BHNTR1 said:


> For those with a criminal law back round, Answer this question please. How much liability falls on the board member or members responsible for the oversight of the books? I would think that there has to be some kind of accountability for what has happened here. I also dont think that with the amount of money that was alleged to have been taken that she pulled this off on her own. Just food for thought.


I've been thinking about this today. 

In most large non-profits they carry board of directors insurance that covers the civil penalties that can occur but there is no barrier to criminal charges. In general unless as said earlier there is a paper trail to tie the BOD to illegal activity then they are not culpable.


----------



## RecordKeeper (May 9, 2003)

Selil said:


> I've been thinking about this today.
> 
> In most large non-profits they carry board of directors insurance that covers the civil penalties that can occur but there is no barrier to criminal charges. In general unless as said earlier there is a paper trail to tie the BOD to illegal activity then they are not culpable.


Not criminally culpable anyway.

Not speaking of the NAA, but in general terms once again...whenever joining the board of any organization...be it a not for profit, a for profit (especially if publicly traded), or even your local private pool or homeowners association....you should make sure there is a fidelity bond in place and that the organization has a director's and officer's bond and indemnification policy.

I also personally carry a $1 million personal liability rider...it is a fairly inexpensive add-on if you have a homeowners' policy. It's best to be cautious about these matters. One kid was seriously injured at our neighborhood pool a few years back....luckily, someone on the board was wise enough to make sure the pool association had a good fidelity bond.:wink:


----------



## Jim C (Oct 15, 2002)

In most embez. cases restitution is ordered. In most cases the money is gone. The real issue-as far as members go, is whether there is any insurance available


----------



## BHNTR1 (Apr 6, 2003)

Thanks for all the constructive input!


----------



## Jim C (Oct 15, 2002)

BHNTR1 said:


> Thanks for all the constructive input!


From both the real posters and the


----------



## Big Country (Apr 25, 2003)

Jim, you used to have much more attractive sock puppets back in the old soapbox days!:wink:


----------



## BHNTR1 (Apr 6, 2003)

Jim C said:


> From both the real posters and the




You dont say!!!!!!!! LMAO :tongue:


----------



## RecordKeeper (May 9, 2003)

Big Country said:


> Jim, you used to have much more attractive sock puppets back in the old soapbox days!:wink:


I think it's obvious that we need a sockpuppet with a pancake on his head.

Doc?....Oh Doc!!! Here's a task for you!:tongue:


----------



## Big Country (Apr 25, 2003)

Recordkeeper said:


> I think it's obvious that we need a sockpuppet with a pancake on his head.
> 
> Doc?....Oh Doc!!! Here's a task for you!:tongue:



He is probably out practicing with his bow again. I don`t know WHAT we are gonna do with that boy?


----------



## Hutnicks (Feb 9, 2006)

Recordkeeper said:


> I think it's obvious that we need a sockpuppet with a pancake on his head.
> 
> Doc?....Oh Doc!!! Here's a task for you!:tongue:


I honestly don't know how you beat me to that one Must be blocking my update threads option:sad:


Now in all honestly and in keeping with the fauna motif. Anyone got a jpeg of "lambchop?" The perfect underpinning for a flapjack there. 

Could be a new AT mascot, Might outsell hats


----------



## Doc (Jun 10, 2003)

Recordkeeper said:


> I think it's obvious that we need a sockpuppet with a pancake on his head.
> 
> Doc?....Oh Doc!!! Here's a task for you!:tongue:





Hutnicks said:


> Now in all honestly and in keeping with the fauna motif. Anyone got a jpeg of "lambchop?" The perfect underpinning for a flapjack there.
> 
> Could be a new AT mascot, Might outsell hats


Where I come from, we call this a 2-fer:dancing:


----------



## Hutnicks (Feb 9, 2006)

Doc said:


> Where I come from, we call this a 2-fer:dancing:




Elegant and yet somehow _*HORRIFYING*_ at the same time:tongue:

Let the cold hand jokes begin!


----------



## Doc (Jun 10, 2003)

Maybe this one is more appropriate?:noidea:


----------



## Hutnicks (Feb 9, 2006)

Doc said:


> Maybe this one is more appropriate?:noidea:


Think that one may need a little...... "BACKGROUND"


----------



## Jim C (Oct 15, 2002)

Big Country said:


> Jim, you used to have much more attractive sock puppets back in the old soapbox days!:wink:


yeah I got the old one from Willie (the crossbow guy)-when this computer crashed sadly old argyle died with it.

Maybe willie can find him again-he was far better than Mr Sweats here:wink:


----------



## Seattlepop (Dec 8, 2003)

*My fav*

Always liked this one...


----------



## Jim C (Oct 15, 2002)

Seattlepop said:


> Always liked this one...



THERE HE IS -WE HAVE MISSED HIM. I hear he is stuffed with Cotton.


----------



## Archerone (Mar 30, 2006)

Should have known that they would finally have to put a 'sock' on this thread.:wink:


----------



## Jim C (Oct 15, 2002)

Archerone said:


> Should have known that they would finally have to put a 'sock' on this thread.:wink:


Only to hose down some of the rumors


----------



## CM JOAD (Oct 9, 2005)

Jim C said:


> Only to hose down some of the rumors


I think it is spelled c-e-n-s-o-r-s-h-i-p?


----------



## Archerone (Mar 30, 2006)

I think that Jim and the others meant that this being a serious subject we need to lighten up until we know more of the facts. Correct me if I am wrong, Please!


----------



## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

> I think that Jim and the others meant that this being a serious subject we need to lighten up until we know more of the facts.


Which is what I meant by my "soap opera" comment as well...

John.


----------



## CM JOAD (Oct 9, 2005)

Archerone said:


> I think that Jim and the others meant that this being a serious subject we need to lighten up until we know more of the facts. Correct me if I am wrong, Please!


Is the "lighten up" crowd any more righteous than the "I want to keep talking about it" crowd or the "I want to keep reading about it" crowd? Rather than trying to stop people from talking about it, maybe they should just stop reading? Out of sight, out of mind? Then everybody is happy.


----------



## Bob_Looney (Nov 17, 2003)

It can be tough to catch if nobody is looking.
A kid I went to school with had dreams of being the county sheriff. He finally worked his way up 20 years later but only lasted one term. Seems he embezzled $750K from the neighboring towns rural fire dept he headed up.

He said he couldn't help it, It was just so easy.

If there isn't somebody watching the cookie jar ie; 2 signatures on checks, independent audits, etc. Your money will disappear. Not IF but WHEN.


----------



## Big Country (Apr 25, 2003)

CM JOAD said:


> Is the "lighten up" crowd any more righteous than the "I want to keep talking about it" crowd or the "I want to keep reading about it" crowd? Rather than trying to stop people from talking about it, maybe they should just stop reading? Out of sight, out of mind? Then everybody is happy.



If you have something of substance.....by all means, bring it to the table.:darkbeer:

In the meantime, I fail to see what you are getting excited about?


----------



## Guest (Jul 31, 2007)

Boy! You guys love this stuff don;t you? hehehehe::secret:


----------



## Hutnicks (Feb 9, 2006)

Doc said:


> Where I come from, we call this a 2-fer:dancing:


You Folk don't get "Ed The Sock" down there, do you?


----------



## ArchUSA (Mar 12, 2003)

The NAA is audited three times a year. Twice by the USOC and once by an independent auditor as reqired by federal and state laws governing non-profits. Lloyd has nothing to do with this, it is done as a matter of course. So after 24 aduits, why wasn't this caught immediately? Also. the 250k shortfall has occured because the USOC has been funding the smaller NGB's less and less over the last 5 years, thereby forcing the NGB to get out there and do some fundraising - or increase their membership. The NAA has always been impotent on both fronts (membership is down 30%). Instead, they farm out their most valuable divisions like JOAD, Instructor Certification and the magazine to others that do not care about what benefits the NAA - only themselves. Lloyd is responsible for a lot of this, and Darrell Pace before him. Once you give authority away, you preety much loose it forever. In my opinion, they only thread holding the organization together is our love of the sport. The intrinsic value of the NAA has been depleted, and that is truly sad. I have been a member for 20 years, and served on the BOG for 4-years, and I can say that the item we spent the most time on (sometimes late into the night) was the budget. Now, the biggest item is where the're going for dinner and how soon they can leave CO on Sunday. After 128 years, one would assume we would have our act together by now. I don't know what the answer is; but the questions are larger than what an employee is accused of doing. Perhaps we should speak to the USOC and put the NAA into recievership for a year while we get it together with a new board and do it before the USOC suppends us.


----------



## CM JOAD (Oct 9, 2005)

Big Country said:


> If you have something of substance.....by all means, bring it to the table.:darkbeer:
> 
> In the meantime, I fail to see what you are getting excited about?


And the "substance" in your post was ????


----------



## Jim C (Oct 15, 2002)

ArchUSA said:


> The NAA is audited three times a year. Twice by the USOC and once by an independent auditor as reqired by federal and state laws governing non-profits. Lloyd has nothing to do with this, it is done as a matter of course. So after 24 aduits, why wasn't this caught immediately? Also. the 250k shortfall has occured because the USOC has been funding the smaller NGB's less and less over the last 5 years, thereby forcing the NGB to get out there and do some fundraising - or increase their membership. The NAA has always been impotent on both fronts (membership is down 30%). Instead, they farm out their most valuable divisions like JOAD, Instructor Certification and the magazine to others that do not care about what benefits the NAA - only themselves. Lloyd is responsible for a lot of this, and Darrell Pace before him. Once you give authority away, you preety much loose it forever. In my opinion, they only thread holding the organization together is our love of the sport. The intrinsic value of the NAA has been depleted, and that is truly sad. I have been a member for 20 years, and served on the BOG for 4-years, and I can say that the item we spent the most time on (sometimes late into the night) was the budget. Now, the biggest item is where the're going for dinner and how soon they can leave CO on Sunday. After 128 years, one would assume we would have our act together by now. I don't know what the answer is; but the questions are larger than what an employee is accused of doing. Perhaps we should speak to the USOC and put the NAA into recievership for a year while we get it together with a new board and do it before the USOC suppends us.


Tell me what did Darrell Mark and LLoyd do that caused this?


----------



## spangler (Feb 2, 2007)

Jim C said:


> Tell me what did Darrell Mark and LLoyd do that caused this?


I could be wrong, but I think he is claiming that they are responsible for the farming off of NAA programs and products to organizations that don't care. He isn't saying that they are responsible for the current situation of missing $$$.

Or maybe I'm wrong. 

Or maybe you knew that and the above is what you meant by "this"

Or maybe I should simply delete this post because I don't think I've cleared anything up either.

-Andrew


----------



## Archerone (Mar 30, 2006)

I think that some of the reasons for 'farming' had to do with someone had to come up sometimes with solutions immediately. If there was a problem or a vacuum in a program the BOG needed to act and if they could not work out a solution the easy answer was farming. Thankless hard work investigating coming up with solutions which others might not pass.


----------



## ArchUSA (Mar 12, 2003)

I never said that the current situation was caused by Darrell or Lloyd, and I never mentioned Mark Miller at all. I believe the reason for our current 250K shortfall falls to our leadership and their lack of planning. There are two parts to our organization - service to it's members, and service to itself. If the leadership dosen't know or doesn"t care about long range planning then we all get caught between a rock and a hard place eventually. We can"t rely on the USOC for our funding (which now is over 85% of revenue) forever. There has not been a new proposal to advance our sport (or the NAA) since I left the board. It took years for me to get proposals approved that would increase the value of the NAA. A second location in each region for indoor nationals, the adult (senior) training program, the corporate team award program (which no one really knows about), the JOAD ID card, the traditional recurve division and the commercial/ pro-shop membership are all my proopsals. Have you heard of anything else new in the last 5-6 years being proposed by anyone? No. By the way, my proposal to have the President elected by direct vote of the membership and not by board politics, could not even get a second to bring it to the floor for discussion. You can't instill vision in people that don't have any, and definately not in those that can't be bothered. Being on the board means you place the welfare of the organization foremost, and not the business ventures of your friends. Sorry for the venting; but all this could have been avoided, and we could have been three times larger with real leadership. Speaking of leadership, the NAA does have directors insurance.


----------



## BILL B (Jun 21, 2003)

Up until now I have read the 127 posts on this thread and find that many posts are inaccurate and erroneous. Only a few posters have the facts about the NAA and that is because they have participated in its many programs and have contributed their time to make it run better. 

If people know what is going on we won’t have people publishing mixed facts such as combining “$250,000 shortfall” and an employee “embezzling money“ to be the employee embezzled $250,000. I also note that a number of posters are quite loyal to various BOG members and give them credit for actions they didn’t do or through ignorance blame certain BOG members when they were not responsible for the action. ARCHUSA corrected a number of misrepresentations.

One poster wrote about the difficulty he had on getting his name on the ballot for BOG. I was the Chairman of the nominating committee that year and the member from the Western Region had difficulty getting anyone to run. She finally got Dee Wilde to accept and he was elected. Anyone who feels or felt that they were out of the loop could get their name placed on the ballot by submitting a petition signed by 5 NAA members from his district. This method was used by one elected BOG member a few years back.

In closing, I feel that the large number of posts really indicates how much our members care about our organization but don’t know how to make it better. I think that what these posts really says is that the NAA must do a better job of informing the membership where it is going and what it is doing.


----------



## Archerone (Mar 30, 2006)

BILL B said:


> Up until now I have read the 127 posts on this thread and find that many posts are inaccurate and erroneous.
> One poster wrote about the difficulty he had on getting his name on the ballot for BOG. I was the Chairman of the nominating committee that year and the member from the Western Region had difficulty getting anyone to run. She finally got Dee Wilde to accept and he was elected. Anyone who feels or felt that they were out of the loop could get their name placed on the ballot by submitting a petition signed by 5 NAA members from his district. This method was used by one elected BOG member a few years back.


I need to answer this posting. I Have the Email archived, the copy of the letter, and a witness to the events at the State Indoor. I first used the standard method for getting my name on the ballot. When that did not work I got the Petition. Here is the letter sent to Rick Mack WITH the letter with five signatures. I inserted the word 'Blank' for the person responsible so not to start a flame.



> Rick,
> 
> I ran for Board of Governors in 1997 and 1999. I communicated with George Greenway on 11/16/00 that I was running again in 2001. I called the NAA office on 12/14/00 and I was told to contact the Nominating Chairperson for this. I was given Roy Nelson’s name for this. Roy told me that it was 'Blank' I needed to contact and he knew of no candidates yet. I submitted my name by email to 'Blank' as a possible candidate on December 14, 2000. I did not receive any reply to my request. On 1/13/01, I drove three hours to our state indoor and I saw 'Blank' as I walked in. I stood at her table and she said nothing to me. I later went to her and questioned her in person regarding my request. She briefly told me that she was sorry that she had not responded to me, but two names were already submitted. I was told if I had anymore questions to direct them to Roy Nelson.
> I am letting you know that I find this as business as usual in discouraging outsiders that are not part of the ‘click’ Lack of communication, twisting it, or withholding of it is a time honored system of some ‘click’ members.
> I have found George Greenway above that and I hope you will see through this part of your new job.


I went through plenty of misinformation from some members /Staff of the NAA from 1993 to 2001. Much of it was about qualifying for USAT or a World Team. I had to keep notes and phone records. I made them double check and I would call back to verify. I also had to contact an attorney and threaten the NAA with legal action. They always changed their tune when they were caught changing conditions after they gave them out for these teams. I also want to add that I have never had any problems with any of the NAA Directors misleading me.


----------



## BILL B (Jun 21, 2003)

Archerone

I agree that someone was giving you the runaround. I believe that whomever the lady was you talked with in California was, she was probably only a member of the committee. When I was chairman, the western region rep on my committee was a lady. She may have already turned in 2 candidates but your candidate by petition should have been outside of the normal nominating committee actions. The NAA executive should have put your name on the ballot in addition to the two submitted by the nominating committee. If this happened while I was chairman, I apologise to you on behalf of the NAA


----------



## Archerone (Mar 30, 2006)

BILL B said:


> Archerone
> 
> I agree that someone was giving you the runaround. I believe that whomever the lady was you talked with in California was, she was probably only a member of the committee. When I was chairman, the western region rep on my committee was a lady. She may have already turned in 2 candidates but your candidate by petition should have been outside of the normal nominating committee actions. The NAA executive should have put your name on the ballot in addition to the two submitted by the nominating committee. If this happened while I was chairman, I apologise to you on behalf of the NAA


Bill,

I got to the point to expect to be mislead. It is a sorry state of affair when you have to document everything. What Roy Nelson told me I trusted as true and I still believe it. He said the same thing you did about having problems getting someone to run. I kept records and dates. The timeline favors me being put on the list. I also knew that it was more realistic that I was not her choice to have anything to do with the Western Region. This was from discussions with her in the past.
Bill, I accept your personal apology. It does not change the mistrust caused. I can not count how many of those I have gotten from the NAA always after the event.


----------



## oldreliable67 (Mar 24, 2003)

ArchUSA said:


> The NAA is audited three times a year. Twice by the USOC and once by an independent auditor as reqired by federal and state laws governing non-profits.


Do they really refer to the examinations by the USOC as an "audit"? My impression is that these are not audits. A review of the books and records, yes, but far from audits. It is my impression that the folks from the USOC who conduct these examinations are not CPAs nor do they verify account balances (except for bank balances) or transactions with counterparties--if I'm wrong on this, someone please post up the correct info.

However, an independent audit _should_ have uncovered any missing funds. The fact that it didn't (until now), as in most cases of unaccounted for funds, most likely reflects on the relatively small size of the operation and the consequent placing of dual and possibly conflicting responsibilities (for example, authorizing disbursements and actually making disbursements) in the hands of one person, thereby circumventing any ordinary systematic checks and balances. 

Having said that, it is also the responsibility of an independent auditor to report, in a document usually referred to as a "management letter," any findings of unusual, poor policies, or suspect practices that could lead to such malfeasance. It is these independent audits on which management and the audit committee of the board of directors/governors rely to prevent these occurrences. Obviously, it doesn't always work as quickly as it should.


----------



## BHNTR1 (Apr 6, 2003)

oldreliable67 said:


> Having said that, it is also the responsibility of an independent auditor to report, in a document usually referred to as a "management letter," any findings of unusual, poor policies, or suspect practices that could lead to such malfeasance. It is these independent audits on which management and the audit committee of the board of directors/governors rely to prevent these occurrences. Obviously, it doesn't always work as quickly as it should.






Based on the conversation that I had with Brad today, this in fact did happen and the findings from this report are to be addressed in a press release being prepared by the USOC.

Its my understanding that there are a few press releases that are due to come out in the next few days. Should be interesting to see what everyone has to say about what is going on. From what I gathered it should prove to be very positive


----------



## Tom96 (Aug 4, 2007)

Has anyone looked into Brad Camps responsibilities in this? As executive director he should have been on top of things


----------



## Bill Reeb (Aug 6, 2007)

I have not seen any comments on the investigation lately. Of particular interest is who was responsible for day to day monitoring of business activities.


----------



## Bill Reeb (Aug 6, 2007)

Any new news?


----------



## comp1 (Dec 18, 2007)

c3hammer said:


> I called the district attourny's office. There is a case open and arrest made. The case number is 07CR3003.
> 
> It's a sad sad day
> 
> pete


I was reviewing this old post and found a few errors and additional information.

First of all Kathleen Frazier was convicted in ca#07CR003003 (not case #) and there is an abstract of judgment dated 6-30-2009 Instrument Number: 209075197.

Getting more official data is difficult because there back woods information eating machine has trouble going the other direction. 

It looks like you may need to go to the courthouse and review the records for the right documents to copy. Otherwise, you will need to purchase hundreds of documents from a private company.


----------



## Bucks (Jul 27, 2005)

isnt there a presumption of innocense? this thread may be absolutely correct, however, its unsubstantiated. 

kill the thread.


----------



## comp1 (Dec 18, 2007)

what part do you find unsubstantiated? in all seriousnes, isnt it the part you just did not understand?

take a little more time before responding.


----------



## c3hammer (Sep 20, 2002)

Wow comp1, this was a long time ago. I'd have thought we were over all this crazy stuff way back then 

At the time that was the case number and as it was no longer a case after trial they must call it CA# for a reason 

Who knows where the extra two zero's come from. Probably a proceedural change since then.

Cheers,
Pete


----------



## lizard (Jul 4, 2003)

I agree with c3hammer, why are you bringing up OLD news?


----------



## comp1 (Dec 18, 2007)

It never ceases to amaze me what qualifies as a reasonable response around here.


----------

