# Proper draw length..................It's EVERYTHING!



## Skeeter 58 (Jan 25, 2009)

I realize many of you out there already know this, but I thought I would say a few things for our newer members about proper dl and how critical it really is to better accuracy. 

I've come full circle on many aspects of archery over the last 31 years or so. And if there is one thing that I would like to get across as being perhaps the number one factor in accuracy, shooter comfort, and to that satisfying feeling we as successful archers strive for, it's proper dl. 

By having your dl correct, your sight pin will be much more stable on the X and the shot will come off much better. Your bow will not want to float around as much if you will. And when I say proper dl, I mean even 1/2" can make a big difference. 

Another reason why you would want your dl to be correct is your bow will draw easier for you. If your too long on dl, it can and does make a bow more difficult to draw. 

We know that the longer the dl, the faster your bow will be. But let me give you all one bit of very valuable advice. Do not go longer on your dl IF your chasing speed. Trust me on this one. 

It will lead to frustration, accuracy problems esp with fixed blade broadheads, you will tend to tire out faster, you will find it easy to get the shakes, and it will not be nearly as fun when you struggle. 

But the main devel that we want to avoid at all cost is target panic. And by having too long of dl it can and does induce target panic. 

If your chasing speed and dont want to buy a faster bow, then do so by going to a lighter arrow. Or, and I hate to say this, you can up your draw weight. But it will behoove you to not go over board with it. It can have the same bad results except you can damage your shoulder.

Nuts&Bolts has made some great threads about proper dl. I used some of the pics he posted [one of Randy Ulmer at full draw] to get my dl back to where it should be. 

It had been years since I shot that short of dl but after viewing that one pic, I thought I would give it a try. And I gotta tell ya, it made all the difference in the world and I'm back shooting actually better than I ever have. 

So yeah, proper dl............it's everything.

Good shooting to you all.

Skeet.


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## mikajay (Apr 15, 2009)

The man is right.

r.mika


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## coiloil37 (May 27, 2010)

It's hard to argue with that.


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## papachuby (Nov 19, 2008)

I agree 100% main factor in consistancy


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## Pike co Mo (May 15, 2011)

Iv shot everything from 27.5to 30".When learning back tension they tell you to shorten up your draw. Iv also found a couple different formulas to get the right DL. Then Iv found shooting different releases that look similar can vary your DL 1/2"+. I am still looking for the answer but as for now I am trying to put my right elbow in a straight line with my arrow at full draw. Any insight in this topic would be much appreciated.


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## Rgarbarino (Apr 15, 2008)

A release doesn't effect your draw length at all, it affects your anchor point.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

SAME SHOOTER.

String touches da tip of da NOSE in each picture.

FIRST pic on the left,
he is shooting a wrist strap release,
and had shot THIS PARTICULAR draw length for YEARS.

Felt comfy.
Felt familiar.

Some years back, he posted up a "how's my form thread".

Wanted to know if he MIGHT have the potential to reach the next level of shooting.

So,
over the course of 9 MONTHS,
a bit of advice here,
a bit of advice there...

he decided to make a change.

Whacked off a FULL INCH on the draw length, in the SHORTER direction.

He posted up the middle photo.

Some more experiments, on his own, over time.
Letting things settle in.

After about 9 months,
we have the final photo on the right.

TOTAL change in draw length adjustment, was nearly, ALMOST, but not quite, 2 FULL INCHES SHORTER in DL.

You can see the changes in shooting posture, over time.

String touching the tip of the nose,
is only ONE piece of the puzzle,
for figuring draw length.


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## papachuby (Nov 19, 2008)

I think peep height is the next most important part


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## JHM (Feb 15, 2006)

Like the op said proper draw length is everything. But, what is the right draw length for the individual can be hard to determine. Show three different experts a picture of an archers draw length and you may get three different opinions. A draw that is way too long is easy to spot. A 1/2" to short or 3/4" to long not so much. Our bodies are all different. I would suggest the photos of Randy Ulmer are a good reference. Also, there are many here who are very helpful.


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## N7709K (Dec 17, 2008)

it all depends on how picky you want to get with dl.. if you get down to a single twist/half twist to see what it does to your hold pattern you've found roughly the correct dl.. but diff circumstances garner short dl or a tad longer dl..


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## Pike co Mo (May 15, 2011)

Rgarbarino said:


> A release doesn't effect your draw length at all, it affects your anchor point.


What I mean is DL, D loop, and release all are variables in me keeping my right elbow in line with my arrow. How are you guys coming up with your DL.


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## Bow Me (Sep 30, 2010)

Hear hear! I was measured by my old pro shop @ 29". I have been shooting that length since day one. After struggling with occasional far left and right misses, I took a pic at full draw. I was told it looked a little long. I shortened it by half-an-inch and lowered the peep about a quarter inch. That made all the difference in the world.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

JHM said:


> Like the op said proper draw length is everything. But, what is the right draw length for the individual can be hard to determine. Show three different experts a picture of an archers draw length and you may get three different opinions. A draw that is way too long is easy to spot. A 1/2" to short or 3/4" to long not so much. Our bodies are all different. I would suggest the photos of Randy Ulmer are a good reference. Also, there are many here who are very helpful.


The pin float
or
the scope dot float,
will tell you 
if you need to make tiny changes in the LONGER direction
or
if you need to make tiny changes in the SHORTER direction.

Tiny changes = twists in the string or buss cable...few extra or few less twists.

When you find the CORRECT draw length for YOU,
the group size will ALWAYS improve (get much smaller).


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

Pike co Mo said:


> What I mean is DL, D loop, and release all are variables in me keeping my right elbow in line with my arrow. How are you guys coming up with your DL.


The terminology is confusing.


1) adjust the bow DL setting to get the nock to land on a particular spot on your face.










IN these THREE photos,
the nock was landing on the SAME exact spot on his face,
the string was touching the tip of the nose in EACH photo...

29-inches of DL, 28-inches of DL, 27-inches of DL,
the string was touching the tip of the nose for EACH draw length setting...

BUT,
you can see the difference in the shooting posture for each photo.

As the DL setting on the bow got shorter and shorter,
then
the shooting posture starts to CHANGE.

EVERYBODY knows how to hit the tip of the nose with the string,
so,
when the DL is TOO LONG,
they lean backwards to make it work.

Well,
you can hit the tip of the nose, with a bow DL setting that is 2 - INCHES too long,
but,
see what happens to the release forearm, in the left hand picture....

release forearm is uphill, instead of slightly downhill.

Shooting accuracy is nowhere near your potential accuracy.


2) So, length of the release (wrist strap) and the d-loop is used to adjust the position of your release hand.

So,
if you have REALLY WIDE shoulders, use a LONGER d-loop.

Here is a pic of Randy Ulmer, shooting uphill.










He has WIDE shoulders.

So,
his d-loop is EXTRA long, as well.










Also, kinda depends on your HAT SIZE.

If you wear a really LARGE HAT SIZE,
this means that the distance from the corner of your mouth,
to your ear opening...

is gonna be LONGER,
so you need a LONGER d-loop.

We want the knuckle of the bottom of the index finger,
just under the ear opening.

SEE YELLOW DOT.










So,
LARGE HAT SIZE,
then,
LARGE, longer d-loop.

D-loop is used to adjust for the SIZE of your HEAD.

D-loop length is used to position your RELEASE HAND on the side of your head.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

We want the END of the arrow shaft,
to line up under the FRONT CURVATURE of your eyeball.

WIDE SHOULDERS?
LONG skinny bow arm?

You will have a LONG distance
from the FRONT CURVATURE of your eyeball,
to the pivot point of the grip.

So,
you need a LONGER bow DL setting.

BOW DL setting = fine tune to match the length of your collarbone and bow arm (LEFT collar bone and LEFT bow arm length).

PERIOD.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

I truly is not that complicated,
but....

here are some hints.










Courtesy of Coach Bernie. New method from Coach Bernie.

The poor sketch, is my computer drawing skills.

Put on a shirt with buttons.
Measure to the end of your wrist.

This measurement = bow DL setting.

If you measure 29-inches from the buttons on your shirt,
to the end of your wrist,
then,
start trying out bows with a 29-inch DL setting on the sticker on the bottom limb.

ONLY 1 problem.

99% of bows are constructed to draw on the LONG side of the measurement.

STICKER might say 29-inches.

But,
when you whip out the tape measure,
the bow measures out at 29.25-inches
the bow measures out at 29-3/8ths
the bow measures out at 29-1/2
the bow measures out at 29-5/8ths
the bow measures out at 29-3/4


you get the idea.

So,
you might get lucky
and the sticker and the actual draw length MIGHT match,
and
the actual draw length MIGHT NOT match.

Truly unfortunate.


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## Skeeter 58 (Jan 25, 2009)

Thanks for chiming in and clearing some things up N&B. As always, it's appreciated. 

The last pic of Randy Ulmer above was my main sourch of finding my correct dl and it worked out great!

The main factor that worked for me was not having the string in the cornor of my mouth. My kisser button hits just about in the same place as Randy's string intersects on him. That was the perfect location for me as proved by my shooting. I now hold a much better posture and shooting form as a result. 

It has me more in line with the arrow, if you will, which paid off big time.

Skeet.


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## Skeeter 58 (Jan 25, 2009)

Pike co Mo said:


> What I mean is DL, D loop, and release all are variables in me keeping my right elbow in line with my arrow. How are you guys coming up with your DL.


I think that if you get your dl down to where it's close to what is in some of the pics posted by N&B, then you can fine tune your dl, release, and loop from there. 

I realize that everyone is different, but my point is there are certain aspects we want to get down first. 

For me, that pic of Randy Ulmer was the correct string, face, and arrow locations that worked out great. I havent shot so well in years, if ever. 

Skeet.


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## buckhunter1 (May 25, 2009)

This is one of the better threads I have seen in a long time. It seems like bows are getting longer and longer, lengthening draw lengths, chasing speed and fudging the numbers. I ordered a bow a half inch less fearing my draw was too long and I have always strugled a little bit with holding steady. I have been using a Short & Sweet to shorten up my anchor point. I have marked this page, and I thank you!


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## Pike co Mo (May 15, 2011)

Great info, I am heading to the basement to do some work on my bow. Thanks.


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## Skeeter 58 (Jan 25, 2009)

buckhunter1 said:


> This is one of the better threads I have seen in a long time. It seems like bows are getting longer and longer, lengthening draw lengths, chasing speed and fudging the numbers. I ordered a bow a half inch less fearing my draw was too long and I have always strugled a little bit with holding steady. I have been using a Short & Sweet to shorten up my anchor point. I have marked this page, and I thank you!


You are welcome. I hope it helps you find that sweet spot. When you do, you will know it. 

Skeet.


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## Skeeter 58 (Jan 25, 2009)

Pike co Mo said:


> Great info, I am heading to the basement to do some work on my bow. Thanks.


Cool. Good luck to you and let us know how it turned out. 

Skeet.


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## aread (Dec 25, 2009)

The closer I get to finding my precise DL, the more important it becomes to accurate archery. 

The great tournament archer Terry Ragsdale, once said that when he is setting up a new bow, he spends more time getting the DL right than all other tuning combined. I definitely agree with him and you on it's importance.

One other thing is to understand that your optimum DL won't stay the same throughout your archery life. As you age and your body changes, it will also change.

Good thread!
Allen


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## Skeeter 58 (Jan 25, 2009)

aread said:


> One other thing is to understand that your optimum DL won't stay the same throughout your archery life. As you age and your body changes, it will also change.
> 
> Good thread!
> Allen



Yes I agree with that. I was shooting a longer dl fairly well. Then due to a bad shoulder, a serious helth condition, and my age, I started to struggle. It had gotten to the point to where archery wasnt near as fun as it should have been.

So I finally decided to get to the bottom of it and the results are simply amazing. :thumbs_up

Glad you like the thread.

Skeet.


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## Martin_Shooter1 (Jan 25, 2012)

I got a question about your pics. My wife leans back when shooting at our house but we shoot on the edge of the street into my driveway and the street is HEAVILY crowned downhill. In other words we are standing on a decline as we shoot. Logic tells me that to base your stance on draw length you must first make sure you are shooting on a level surface? Naturally when standing facing a downhill grade of any degree you have a tendency to lean back to stay level with gravity. Am I correct? She had lessons by a well know and respected pro shop the other day and they set her bow up proper. This is just a question i got for others who may be taking pics and submitting them. Make sure you are standing on a level surface.


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## Tallybowman (Dec 2, 2008)

subscribe


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## hedp (Dec 20, 2011)

Rfl


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## johnairforce (Nov 25, 2009)

Great thread guys! I started shooting about 3 years ago and when i got my bow the DL was a bit short. I just decided to deal with it and adjust myself to the bow. Since becoming a member of AT and reading threads like this, my shooting has improve greatly and along with it my confidence at long distances. Thanks guys


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## Mac of Michigan (Mar 26, 2009)

THANK YOU SKEETER!!! Exceptional thread!


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## 454casull (Jan 7, 2005)

Only slightly off topic. This is why a draw board is so important when setting up a bow, esp. when bows are known to come in long. Yes, they are not absolutely necessary but work smarter not harded. All it took was 3 twists of the string to bring my Primal DL back to where it needed to be and again she's lights out. New harness coming however....


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## timmymac24 (Sep 4, 2008)

I can remember buying my first bow (PSE) about 25 years ago. The shop owner said here this will work and the bow had a 29 inch draw. So the next several bows owned were 29 inches. I spent a lot of time reading about this topic here on AT as well as other forums. I now shoot a 28 dl bow and could probably bring it down a tad still. My advice is to get the proper dl when you start out, in other words a shop owner or friend that can help you get the right bow dl. As someone stated it will make shooting a lot less frustrating and more fun once your equipment is dialed in. Great post Skeet.


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## montigre (Oct 13, 2008)

Very good thread. Sometimes as we change bows, or hand positions on a hand-held release, a person's optimum draw length may also change. I went from shooting a 27.5" DL on an Ultra Elite, but in setting up the Alpha Elite for outdoors, I'm finding that it really likes around a 28" DL for the sight picture to settle down and shot to go off smoothly with small groups. I also went from a shallow grip on my hinge to a pretty deep grip--the combination of the different geometry of the bow and change in hand position equated to a 1/2" change. 


Bottom line: don't be afraid to listen to what the bow's telling you and adjust accordingly. Thanks Skeeter and N&B!! :wink:


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## Skeeter 58 (Jan 25, 2009)

Some good points guys.:thumbs_up

I'm glad some of you brought up some of those things. I was going to mention a few of them but my thread was already getting kind of long. 

Yes indeed. Every bow is not the same even if they are in the same DL. 

And a lot of us know that just becuse a manufacturer's sticker on the limb states a certain DL, doesnt mean it's actual. 

Like 454 said, a draw board is a very handy tool for getting the DL actual. 

Lots of bows are running long on the DL too. Just another way for the manufacturers cheat on IBO speeds. 

So yeah, lots of interesting info on proper DL.

Skeet.


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## Skeeter 58 (Jan 25, 2009)

montigre said:


> Very good thread.
> 
> 
> Bottom line: don't be afraid to listen to what the bow's telling you and adjust accordingly. Thanks Skeeter and N&B!! :wink:


Good advice there.:thumbs_up


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## mez (Feb 22, 2010)

I would think with all of the measurements and posture related tips the actual "measured" draw length of the bow is inconsequential. Start out with one that is marked for your DL and then do changes from there without actually knowing the hard number of what it is drawing. I would think if you did it this way you would be more apt to have the DL truly fit you rather than chasing a numbe r that you assume to be correct on a draw board.


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## Skeeter 58 (Jan 25, 2009)

mez said:


> I would think with all of the measurements and posture related tips the actual "measured" draw length of the bow is inconsequential. Start out with one that is marked for your DL and then do changes from there without actually knowing the hard number of what it is drawing. I would think if you did it this way you would be more apt to have the DL truly fit you rather than chasing a numbe r that you assume to be correct on a draw board.


Thats somewhat true. 

We are seeing more bows come out with rotating draw mods. And others will have replacable mods as well. The old draw length specific cams are starting to dwendly away. So this helps us change DL easily and cheaply. 

It's always been a bad deal to purchase a bow [with DL specific cams] going off of a certain listed DL only to find out later that the bows come in long on the draw. 

Skeet.


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## Viper69 (Feb 4, 2003)

Good info here....


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## mez (Feb 22, 2010)

See your point with the DL specific cams but my comments were more toward the putting a bow on a drawboard and setting the DL at an exact number. If you think your DL is 29 then you will set the bow there and make minor, sub conscience changes to form and mechanics to "make it fit." Would think it more accurate to set it and not know the number until after you are done with the process, then to be used as a reference number for that bow and set up only.


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## N7709K (Dec 17, 2008)

mez said:


> See your point with the DL specific cams but my comments were more toward the putting a bow on a drawboard and setting the DL at an exact number. If you think your DL is 29 then you will set the bow there and make minor, sub conscience changes to form and mechanics to "make it fit." Would think it more accurate to set it and not know the number until after you are done with the process, then to be used as a reference number for that bow and set up only.


there is no number.. only a baseline, you need to go 100% off of feel and groupsize/score.. I can't tell you want my dl is, never measured it after i've got it just right there is no need to

as for draw board, if you are setting up bows for diff shooters other than yourself or you are using binaries you should have one.. if you are just doing your own bow or a cam.5 system then you don't NEED one, if you've shot that system long enough you know the feel that you are trying to achieve and what it takes to get there


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## Skeeter 58 (Jan 25, 2009)

mez said:


> See your point with the DL specific cams but my comments were more toward the putting a bow on a drawboard and setting the DL at an exact number. If you think your DL is 29 then you will set the bow there and make minor, sub conscience changes to form and mechanics to "make it fit." Would think it more accurate to set it and not know the number until after you are done with the process, then to be used as a reference number for that bow and set up only.


Oh I see what your getting at now. I guess I can go along with that. 

However, putting your bow on the draw board is [after getting it in sync] to get to get it to a certain number like you said. But that doesnt mean you will keep it there. 

If it doesnt feel right afterwards, then put it in your press and make the changes to wherever you think it needs to go. A little experimenting if you will. 

Then once you have er down like you want it, you will know where it needs to be for the next time you tweek your bow, replace string set, etc. 

Thats the way I do it anyway.

Now if you keep buying and selling bows, like a lot of us, then its a never ending process. LOL.

Skeet.


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## brudawg (Jul 30, 2009)

Yep, been there done that. My Alpine is a bit long at 29" and hard to hold pins steady. 28" a bit short but holds steady. Waiting for 28.5" modules to come in.


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## Skeeter 58 (Jan 25, 2009)

Speaking of which ^^. Not saying this is the case with you at all. 

I forgot to mention that IF you make a DL change to the shorter side, you may very well feel as if your too bunched up and its too short. But if you give it a few days, and IF its the proper DL, you will then begin to feel as if the shorter DL is better.

Skeet.


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## Ron213 (Jan 1, 2010)

Great thread!!


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## mez (Feb 22, 2010)

Skeeter 58 said:


> Speaking of which ^^. Not saying this is the case with you at all.
> 
> I forgot to mention that IF you make a DL change to the shorter side, you may very well feel as if your too bunched up and its too short. But if you give it a few days, and IF its the proper DL, you will then begin to feel as if the shorter DL is better.
> 
> Skeet.


Interesting discussion. 

I recently got a new bow. I have been shooting 28.5, ( by mod setting not measured) for the last 5 years. Shooting the new bow the first night in the shop I'm feeling all bunched up and wrong. One of the bow techs said, does that feel too short because you don't look comfortable shooting it, you are all bunched up. We set it at 29 and if feels great. Now, a couple weeks later it is almost starting to feel too long. I haven't measured it but am contemplating turning it back a half inch again. Guess I need to take some pictures and see how my posture is.


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## papachuby (Nov 19, 2008)

mez said:


> Interesting discussion.
> 
> I recently got a new bow. I have been shooting 28.5, ( by mod setting not measured) for the last 5 years. Shooting the new bow the first night in the shop I'm feeling all bunched up and wrong. One of the bow techs said, does that feel too short because you don't look comfortable shooting it, you are all bunched up. We set it at 29 and if feels great. Now, a couple weeks later it is almost starting to feel too long. I haven't measured it but am contemplating turning it back a half inch again. Guess I need to take some pictures and see how my posture is.


Sounds like you are in between those 2 mod settings. I just recently went through this same scenerio and in the end taking just 2 twists out of the bow string on the shorter setting made ALL the difference. I went from bunched up feeling to perfectly ancored with less than 1/8" adjustment. When it comes to fine tuning your draw length a little does alot.


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## Skeeter 58 (Jan 25, 2009)

mez said:


> Interesting discussion.
> 
> I recently got a new bow. I have been shooting 28.5, ( by mod setting not measured) for the last 5 years. Shooting the new bow the first night in the shop I'm feeling all bunched up and wrong. One of the bow techs said, does that feel too short because you don't look comfortable shooting it, you are all bunched up. We set it at 29 and if feels great. Now, a couple weeks later it is almost starting to feel too long. I haven't measured it but am contemplating turning it back a half inch again. Guess I need to take some pictures and see how my posture is.


Mez, it could be that your stings settled a tad? This is where a draw board is priceless.

When in doubt, try the longer dl. You may get use to it faster than you think.

Skeet.


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## mez (Feb 22, 2010)

It may be but usually when that happens the first thing that I notice is I'm searching for my peep. I've also been experimenting with stance and bow arm position so it really could be a number of things.


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## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

This is a area that we all should be concerned with, I know personally that I have shot the stock 29 inch setting on the last 3 bows that I have shot and only adjust the d-loop to make the bow feel correct with no adjustment to the draw length.


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## rock monkey (Dec 28, 2002)

just one of those silly questions.........


if drawlength is SOOOOOOO important, how and where did the trend swing AWAY from it being CORRECT begin? and WHY did it become so encouraged that it wasnt THAT important?


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## Jhorne (Jul 15, 2003)

nuts&bolts said:


> I truly is not that complicated,
> but....
> 
> here are some hints.
> ...


Why not only measure from zipper to wrist. Why would you want to measure hand and then subtract it?


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## Skeeter 58 (Jan 25, 2009)

I dont know if it has ever swung away from being important. It's one of those things where with the development of better bows, accessories, arrows, releases, etc, has made it more apparent that by paying attention to the small things, we as archers can really expand our accuracy to higher levels. 

Not that we couldnt years ago. It's just in a different realm now. I mean, who would have ever thought that bows would be as high tech as they are now, as tuneable as they are now, have the let off, and be as fast as they are today?


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## 454casull (Jan 7, 2005)

rock monkey said:


> just one of those silly questions.........
> 
> 
> if drawlength is SOOOOOOO important, how and where did the trend swing AWAY from it being CORRECT begin? and WHY did it become so encouraged that it wasnt THAT important?


The *need for speed* for one. Plus I think the avg. Joe is starting to understand what some of the pros have been doing and saying all along. This site goes a long way in this sense, just look at the responses to this thread. I Started realizing this only after having 2 identical bows one of which got shot more than the other. When I switched off, the lesser used bow seemed too short but oddly I shot it much better. Took awhile for the anvil to fall on my head but I got the message.


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## Skeeter 58 (Jan 25, 2009)

Padgett said:


> This is a area that we all should be concerned with, I know personally that I have shot the stock 29 inch setting on the last 3 bows that I have shot and only adjust the d-loop to make the bow feel correct with no adjustment to the draw length.


Whatever works I guess. But I would reckon that by doing it that way, it's much easier if your DL is short to begin with. 

If your DL is long to begin with, then you can only shorten your loop so much, eh?

Skeet.


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## Skeeter 58 (Jan 25, 2009)

454casull said:


> The *need for speed* for one. Plus I think the avg. Joe is starting to understand what some of the pros have been doing and saying all along. This site goes a long way in this sense, just look at the responses to this thread. I Started realizing this only after having 2 identical bows one of which got shot more than the other. When I switched off, the lesser used bow seemed too short but oddly I shot it much better. Took awhile for the anvil to fall on my head but I got the message.


Good point. I went in that direction once on too long of DL chasing speed. Never again.

Skeet.


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## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

Two weeks ago I had a d-loop go bad and when i replaced it I didn't get the length the same as before and it turned out to be way longer, I was lazy and went ahead and shot it that way for the last two weeks and then when I changed it this weekend back to the appropriate length my whole feel was way different than with the long one. Yes I know that my drawlength didn't change but it sure did feel like it changed.


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## troyreed (Dec 6, 2010)

good info


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## hedp (Dec 20, 2011)

.

So I'm assuming you need to have a 2nd person who can look at you and tell you if you are good 
.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

hedp said:


> .
> 
> So I'm assuming you need to have a 2nd person who can look at you and tell you if you are good
> .


Put on a shirt with buttons.

Stand up a closet mirror (tall skinny mirror) and you can look at mirror,
to see if you are standing vertical or leaning backwards.


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## rigginuts (Dec 27, 2008)

nuts&bolts said:


> I truly is not that complicated,
> but....
> 
> here are some hints.
> ...


How could this be ? 

Sorry, I just don't see how it adds up to draw length.


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## Skeeter 58 (Jan 25, 2009)

I dont really understand it either but I'm sure it will get you pretty close. 

I have found that the wing span divided by 2.5 = DL to be pretty darn close for me. 

However, lots of shooters that are a tad different. 

Skeet.


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## Martin_Shooter1 (Jan 25, 2012)

Skeeter 58 said:


> I dont really understand it either but I'm sure it will get you pretty close.
> 
> I have found that the wing span divided by 2.5 = DL to be pretty darn close for me.
> 
> ...


I have found on both my wife and I that wingspan divided by 2.5 is always time and time again an inch to maybe an inch to an inch and a half longer than breast to end of wrist. For me the measurements of both are 28 and 29.5 and my wife is 27 and 28.25. My wife is drawing 28 and so am I. So she is following one way and I am using the other. A pro shop set hers up to her and I set mine up to me. We both feel comfortable when we shoot. So I haven't got it all figured out yet either.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

rigginuts said:


> How could this be ?
> 
> Sorry, I just don't see how it adds up to draw length.


Apex 7 cam with 29-inch fixed draw length cam.

The pivot point to center serving SHOULD measure 27.25-inches on the draw board.

27.25-inch from pivot point of the grip to the center serving, at full draw...PLUS 1.75-inches = 29.0 inches for the bow DL setting.

PROBLEM.

Mathews Apex 7, with the 29-inch FIXED DL cam,
measures out to 27.5-inches on the draw board.

So,
a fella who THINKS they should have a 29-inch draw length,
buys the Apex 7 with the 29-inch cam,
and slaps his arm every shot,
cuz the 29-inch cam on the Apex 7,
is actually delivering 29.25-inches of draw length setting.

Sometimes,
a different bow might have a 29-inch cam, fixed draw length cam,
but,
actually measure out and deliver 29.5-inches of of draw length,
when you slap the bow into a draw board,
and whip out the tape measure.

Unfortunate.


So,
if you measure from the buttons on your shirt,
(center of chest)
and
measure to the end of the wrist/beginning of palm...

and
the tape measure reads 29.0-inches....

then,
look for bows with a 29-inch draw length.

Just be careful.

Not all bows that have a 29-inch cam
actually deliver 29-inches of draw length.


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## outback jack (Aug 12, 2006)

I am thinking you don't add anything to the measurement from the chest to the wrist. They are saying that should be close to your draw length when you do the chest to wrist measurement.


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## Macker (Mar 22, 2007)

rigginuts said:


> Problem I have with the center of chest to wrist measurements is it doesn't add up or allow for the distance from wrist to palm of hand plus another 1.75" for arrow overhang.
> 
> So if my center of chest to my wrist = 25" + 1.5" to my plam (or bow grip) + 1.75 (for arrow overhang) = I have 28.25" draw length. Not a 25" as shown in Bernies diagram. Also what's confusing is item 2, you measure to the tip of fingers and subtract your hand back out .. What good does that do ? .


when i measure to my wrist, i get 29.25", which i have found to be my optimum draw length. i don't know how you are getting such a short number to your wrist. you should not have to add anything to that length anyway.


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## hunt123 (Jan 17, 2009)

nuts&bolts said:


> The pin float
> or
> the scope dot float,
> will tell you
> ...


1) How can you tell whether float movement needs DL adjusting or stab adjusting or tiller adjusting or total bow weight adjusting?

2) I've notice that the float movement changes during a shooting session with nothing else being different. Kind of hard to refine when you don't have a steady baseline movement to start from. 
Movement settles down after shooting a while, then off and on during the session will move a little more or a little less for seemingly no reason.


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## rigginuts (Dec 27, 2008)

Macker said:


> when i measure to my wrist, i get 29.25", which i have found to be my optimum draw length. i don't know how you are getting such a short number to your wrist. you should not have to add anything to that length anyway.


Sorry, I was wrong and deleted my post so I don't confuse anyone.


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## N7709K (Dec 17, 2008)

When you tune stabs in you take put that variable.. With some bows, too light can't be an issue so you move to dl... Same goes for too heavy on some bows


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

hunt123 said:


> 1) How can you tell whether float movement needs DL adjusting or stab adjusting or tiller adjusting or total bow weight adjusting?
> 
> 2) I've notice that the float movement changes during a shooting session with nothing else being different. Kind of hard to refine when you don't have a steady baseline movement to start from.
> Movement settles down after shooting a while, then off and on during the session will move a little more or a little less for seemingly no reason.




Start step by step.

1) take off the stabilizers

2) shoot with no stabilizers and watch/observer your pin float
...if the float is large wavy slow....and your groups are LARGER than you like, 
...shorten up the TOTAL spread distance...shorter d-loop....shorten up the wrist strap to trigger length...add twists to the bowstring


If the float is changing during a shooting session,
then,
your shoulder alignment at full draw is changing,
during the shooting session.

If your shoulders are not parallel to the arrow...while at full draw,
the sight pin float will GROW...











If your shoulders are MORE parallel to the arrow...while at full draw,
the sight pin float will TIGHTEN up...
































Shoulder alignment, while at full draw.

Your choice.

The MORE parallel your shoulders are,
when at full draw,
to the arrow...

(it's a target shooter thing),
then,
the distance between the pivot point of the grip
and
the tip of your release side elbow will GROW

and
the more STEADY you will hold
and
your sight pin FLOAT will tighten up quite nicely.

Get your shoulders more PARALLEL to the arrow while at full draw,
then,
you INCREASE the stretch across the chest muscles,
and
you will hold more steady.


----------



## hunt123 (Jan 17, 2009)

> Get your shoulders more PARALLEL to the arrow while at full draw,
> then,
> you INCREASE the stretch across the chest muscles,
> and
> you will hold more steady.





> Power Triangle Technique - Potential to hold much steadier


OK, I'm confused now. Which one? Just whichever one works best for you but use one and don't swap back and forth?


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## hunt123 (Jan 17, 2009)

Apart from the parallel shoulders / power triangle discussion, would this be the correct sequence?
1) No stab or other weights on your bow and work on DL only to tighten float.
2) Then tiller
3) Then front stab
4) Then rear stab(s) to get bow to desired balance
5) Then mass weight via low, riser weight or additional stab weight.


----------



## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

hunt123 said:


> OK, I'm confused now. Which one? Just whichever one works best for you but use one and don't swap back and forth?


Shoulders MORE PARALLEL will increase the stretch across the chest muscles,
Shoulders MORE PARALLEL will decrease the pin float.

Look at the pictures of 2nd Nature (blue t-shirt) and see with the shoulders MORE parallel,
he is more in line with the arrow, and is holding much more steady.


----------



## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

hunt123 said:


> Apart from the parallel shoulders / power triangle discussion, would this be the correct sequence?
> 1) No stab or other weights on your bow and work on DL only to tighten float.
> 2) Then tiller
> 3) Then front stab
> ...


Tiller adjustments.

Put on your stabilizers,
everything.

Goto the practice range and fire some 60 yard arrow groups.

Experiment with tiller (say 1/8th turn adjustments on ONE limb bolt)
and see what direction tightens up your groups.

Try 1/8th turn MORE than normal on the top limb bolt.
Fire 100 arrows, and an average group size....say groups of 5 arrows.

Ignore fliers.

Then,
try the other direction,
say 1/8th turn LESS than normal on the top limb bolt.

You will soon find out what direction is better for you.

Small changes to your limb bolt will show up as LARGE changes in group size at 60 yards.

You can tweak just the top limb bolt.

You can try tweaking both limb bolts in opposite directions (1/8th turn at a time).


----------



## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

hunt123 said:


> Apart from the parallel shoulders / power triangle discussion, would this be the correct sequence?
> 1) No stab or other weights on your bow and work on DL only to tighten float.
> 2) Then tiller
> 3) Then front stab
> ...




FRONT and REAR bow balance.

This is changing the FOC of the bow balance.

MORE FRONT HEAVY?
Just remove a weight off the rear stabilizer.
or
Just add a weight to the front stabilizer.
or
INCREASE the negative angle on the rear stabilizer..swing down like a propellor.


----------



## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

hunt123 said:


> Apart from the parallel shoulders / power triangle discussion, would this be the correct sequence?
> 1) No stab or other weights on your bow and work on DL only to tighten float.
> 2) Then tiller
> 3) Then front stab
> ...


MASS weight of the entire bow system.

So,
let's keep the FRONT HEAVINESS the same.

Let's ONLY change the total weight of the entire system,
and
keep the FOC of the stabilizer system exactly the same.

ADD weight onto the riser.

Make your bow system as HEAVY as possible,
without YOU getting tired.

Just like a sniper rifle.

HEAVY benchrest rifles are more stable shooting platforms.
HEAVY sniper rifle, prone on a shooting mat, bipod support...equals INCREASED accuracy.

So,
make your bow as HEAVY as you can, so long as you can NOT get yourself so tired,
that the bow accuracy suffers.

SAME bow balance, that works BEST for you.

Just experiment with adding weight directly to the riser,
and not on the ends of stabilizers.

Generally speaking,
higher holding weight and a HEAVIER bow system will work better together.

Gotta figure out what total bow system weight works BEST for you.
Gotta figure out what holding weight works BEST for you.


----------



## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

hunt123 said:


> Apart from the parallel shoulders / power triangle discussion, would this be the correct sequence?
> 1) No stab or other weights on your bow and work on DL only to tighten float.
> 2) Then tiller
> 3) Then front stab
> ...


So,
if you take a look at ANY video clip of Reo Wilde...

one of the FIRST things you notice,
it looks like Reo has POUNDS of weight on the ends of his stabilizers...not just ounces,
but a stack of weights on the end of his FRONT stabilizer, nearly a FOOT long.

So,
to balance out that TREMENDOUS amount of weight on the end of the FRONT STICK,
Reo also has a tremendous amount of weight on the end of the SIDE stabilizer.

So,
Reo is MASSIVELY strong,
and must have shoulder muscles, especially the bow shoulder,
of an Olympic Weight Lifter.

So, this is how Reo makes his bow system TOTAL WEIGHT really really really HEAVY.

Really really really HEAVY is also REALLY REALLY REALLY stable.

So,
I recommend using the MINIMUM amount of weight at the end of the front stick
and using the MINIMUM amount of weight at the end of your side stabilizer...

to get the amount of FRONT HEAVINESS that helps you group as TIGHT as possible.

Then,
if you want to increase the TOTAL weight of your bow system,
just add weight directly to the bow riser,
within YOUR FATIGUE limits (gotta last through the ENTIRE shooting session....tournament).

I am over twice Reo's size (6'2" and 290 lbs) and I cannot handle that kinda stabilizer end weight.

So, experiment.

Have fun!


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## hunt123 (Jan 17, 2009)

Thanks N&B. In the past, I shot so much weight for so long per session, I got what the Dr. called "stress lesions" on my bow shoulder. Had to have an MRI to figure out what was wrong. 

But I probably still wasn't shooting as much weight as Reo. We're all built different and have to work with what we have.

If you don't want to change the letoff (holding weight) of your bow, is pulling harder into the wall an option?


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

hunt123 said:


> Thanks N&B. In the past, I shot so much weight for so long per session, I got what the Dr. called "stress lesions" on my bow shoulder. Had to have an MRI to figure out what was wrong.
> 
> But I probably still wasn't shooting as much weight as Reo. We're all built different and have to work with what we have.
> 
> If you don't want to change the letoff (holding weight) of your bow, is pulling harder into the wall an option?


Yes.

A more AGGRESSIVE shot (pulling harder into the wall)
is always an option.

If you change your "shooting pressure into the wall",
you may need to tweak the cam sync on your bow,
to get the best results...

play with twists in the cables to find the cam rotation sweet spot,
with your new HIGHER pressure into the wall.


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## hoytrulez (Jul 27, 2009)

later use


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## Double B (Feb 20, 2007)

best thread of the year!


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## redneck_pf (Aug 27, 2009)

Def marking for later!


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## Buffalo Hunter (Jan 28, 2005)

Sheez, nuts&bolts nailed it! What a wealth of info in this thread.

This thread should almost be mandatory reading for all getting into archery...as well as most pro shop owners that I've worked with.

Terrific.


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## mikajay (Apr 15, 2009)

Thanks Skeet&Nuts for a great thread.

r.mika


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## proarcher16 (Jul 22, 2008)

:thumbs_up


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## Skeeter 58 (Jan 25, 2009)

mikajay said:


> Thanks Skeet&Nuts for a great thread.
> 
> r.mika


I'm glad you are finding some good out of it. 

So am I, LOL.

Skeet.


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## buckhunter1 (May 25, 2009)

I did the measure from buttons to end of wrist and came up with 29.5". I shoot a 28" bow and just shortened it to 27.5. This system does not work for me. I am 5'8", kind of short and stocky. I have always done the total wingspan divided by two and got around 28", so why is this method making me so long?


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

buckhunter1 said:


> I did the measure from buttons to end of wrist and came up with 29.5". I shoot a 28" bow and just shortened it to 27.5. This system does not work for me. I am 5'8", kind of short and stocky. I have always done the total wingspan divided by two and got around 28", so why is this method making me so long?


Depends on how you stand,
and whether you prefer a more open foot/shoe position / stance.

If you prefer the "open stance",
then,
you will fit a shorter bow DL setting.

If you look like this at full draw,
then...

you will fit a shorter DL setting on the bow.


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## HMMACH1 (Aug 24, 2011)

marked for later.


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## buckhunter1 (May 25, 2009)

nuts&bolts said:


> Depends on how you stand,
> and whether you prefer a more open foot/shoe position / stance.
> 
> If you prefer the "open stance",
> ...


I stand a little open with my left foot, but my alignment a lot straighter in my mirror than that picture does. What doesn't make sense to me is the fact that the other method of total wingspan divided by 2.5 puts me around 28" With my bow on a draw board being around 28 1/4-28 3/8, it puts me a little long if I am going by what this thread is telling me, pin float, slouching backwards in my form and so on. I shortened up my string loop on my bow last season and shot a True Ball Short and Sweet almost as short as I could get it with out being uncomfortable. 
--------------------------------
Well I just measured with the buttons to wrist again and depending how far out I stretch my arm, I get 28 1/4 to 29 1/2.:confused2: So maybe I am stretching my arm out too far . Thanks for you illustration, I really like this thread!


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

buckhunter1 said:


> I stand a little open with my left foot, but my alignment a lot straighter in my mirror than that picture does. What doesn't make sense to me is the fact that the other method of total wingspan divided by 2.5 puts me around 28" With my bow on a draw board being around 28 1/4-28 3/8, it puts me a little long if I am going by what this thread is telling me, pin float, slouching backwards in my form and so on. I shortened up my string loop on my bow last season and shot a True Ball Short and Sweet almost as short as I could get it with out being uncomfortable.
> --------------------------------
> Well I just measured with the buttons to wrist again and depending how far out I stretch my arm, I get 28 1/4 to 29 1/2.:confused2: So maybe I am stretching my arm out too far . Thanks for you illustration, I really like this thread!


Yup.

No need to S - T - R - E - T - C - H your bow arm out.
Sounds like you are at a good spot, for bow DL setting.


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## Skeeter 58 (Jan 25, 2009)

buckhunter1 said:


> I stand a little open with my left foot, but my alignment a lot straighter in my mirror than that picture does. What doesn't make sense to me is the fact that the other method of total wingspan divided by 2.5 puts me around 28" With my bow on a draw board being around 28 1/4-28 3/8, it puts me a little long if I am going by what this thread is telling me, pin float, slouching backwards in my form and so on. I shortened up my string loop on my bow last season and shot a True Ball Short and Sweet almost as short as I could get it with out being uncomfortable.
> --------------------------------
> Well I just measured with the buttons to wrist again and depending how far out I stretch my arm, I get 28 1/4 to 29 1/2.:confused2: So maybe I am stretching my arm out too far . Thanks for you illustration, I really like this thread!


So the wing span divided by 2.5 doesnt get you any closer to being the same?

It works out dead on for me. I know that its just a starting point for some but it works for me.


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## Scott.Barrett (Oct 26, 2008)

This has made amazing changes in my shooting over the last week....consistent PB's each time out!


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## buckhunter1 (May 25, 2009)

Skeeter 58 said:


> So the wing span divided by 2.5 doesnt get you any closer to being the same?
> 
> It works out dead on for me. I know that its just a starting point for some but it works for me.


I did your way a couple more times. 35 1/2 to tip of fingers, 28 1/2 to wrist, (I have small hands.)  
So I guess I'm in the ball park.

I haven't been able to pull back my 2012 27 3/4 draw Bow OMEN PRO back yet, due to having a back injury. So, I am really hoping after everything I have read, that this draw length will be better for me once I get used to it. Thanks again!.


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## eric69 (Jan 11, 2012)

I did first measurement style and my results @ 30" was way off. I'm a 28.5" dl and my bow is a little short for me at 28.25". So I divided my wingspan by 2.5 and got 30.3". I thought well I know my bow's drawlength is a little short - I have to bend my arm a bit to get to my touchpoint - but not 2" worth. So I measured that and my bow is at 29". oops.. :embara:

Great thread! I can't muck with my drawlength much as my bow is maxed out at 29", although I might try twisting the cables some. But at least when the time comes for a new bow, I'll know what dl to start looking for.


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## buckhunter1 (May 25, 2009)

eric69 said:


> I did first measurement style and my results @ 30" was way off. I'm a 28.5" dl and my bow is a little short for me at 28.25". So I divided my wingspan by 2.5 and got 30.3". I thought well I know my bow's drawlength is a little short - I have to bend my arm a bit to get to my touchpoint - but not 2" worth. So I measured that and my bow is at 29". oops.. :embara:
> 
> Great thread! I can't muck with my drawlength much as my bow is maxed out at 29", although I might try twisting the cables some. But at least when the time comes for a new bow, I'll know what dl to start looking for.


What does your bow say on the sticker 28.5 or 29? Or was the 29 the measurement you got from a draw board?


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## XForce Girl (Feb 14, 2008)

Skeeter, 
This is a terrific thread. 

I think back in the day most bows were 29 to 30" draw and that's just what people shot.

I see a lot of folks with draws too long and that's how they have been doing it for years. Sometimes they are amazed at how well they shoot with a proper fitting bow.They give credit to the bow when they probably would of shot their current bow as well if it only fit them.
Personally I recently shortened my bow by 1/2 inch just to try it, OMG... it felt like a brand new bow. 

Someone also mentioned that certain bows may run long or short, that's why when folks come in and just want measured I am hesitant to do that.
It's best they choose a bow then we tweak the draw to fit the person.


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## Xlr8n (Feb 15, 2009)

Excellent info in this thread. Thanx.


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## eric69 (Jan 11, 2012)

buckhunter1 said:


> What does your bow say on the sticker 28.5 or 29? Or was the 29 the measurement you got from a draw board?


29" is what I measured with a simulated drawboard (hook on the ceiling & a tape measure). There was a lot of confusion when I first got the bow - the specs said the F7 module would go to 30", the people at the Martin forum said that was a misprint and it should only go to 29", but the guy at the shop I brought it too could only get it to 27 3/4". Long story short, it was confusing - which is probably why I was confused.

Question though: Should the arm holding the bow have the elbow straight, or is it correct to be bent a bit? I used to think it was supposed to be bent, but the olympic archer lady in the photo certainly seems to have her elbow locked.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

eric69 said:


> 29" is what I measured with a simulated drawboard (hook on the ceiling & a tape measure). There was a lot of confusion when I first got the bow - the specs said the F7 module would go to 30", the people at the Martin forum said that was a misprint and it should only go to 29", but the guy at the shop I brought it too could only get it to 27 3/4". Long story short, it was confusing - which is probably why I was confused.
> 
> Question though: Should the arm holding the bow have the elbow straight, or is it correct to be bent a bit? I used to think it was supposed to be bent, but the olympic archer lady in the photo certainly seems to have her elbow locked.


Bow arm should be extended to say 99% of reach capacity,
IF
you are a target shooter.

Warm weather, t-shirt, etc.

"locked" is not a good way to describe things,
especially if you have a hyper-extensive elbow.

If your MAXIMUM reach is say 28-inches..
then,
shoot for 99% of that maximum reach capacity.

We are basically looking for the bones in the forearm to line up with the bone in the upper arm...
that simple.


When you have the bow arm (forearm and upper arm in a LINE),
then,
get the entire bow arm into a LINE,
with the two shoulders.

IF I stand behind you,
and hold a broomstick across your two shoulders,
then,
your wrist should also touch the broomstick (bow hand wrist).

This is the essence of the "power triangle".

Right shoulder - connects to the - Left shoulder - connects to the - bow arm elbow connects to the - bow wrist / bow hand

ALL in one line.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

Now,
of course,
this will not work for EVERY-body.

Scott.Barnett is getting lots of improvement,
trying this out.

This is DEFINITELY a target shooter thing.
Will not work in below freezing weather, with a heavy hunting jacket.

The concept is to try and get the two shoulders AND the bow arm 
as close as you can
into a single line...

(just have a friend hold a broomstick across your two shoulder blade)
and see how close or how far away your bow hand wrist 
is away from the broomstick,
and
you will know if you are any where close
to being in a skinny TRIANGLE.


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## eric69 (Jan 11, 2012)

nuts&bolts said:


> Bow arm should be extended to say 99% of reach capacity,
> IF
> you are a target shooter.
> 
> ...


Good info! thanks - Is the caveat about 'If shooting targets' because of the clothes worn by hunters and the need to prevent the string getting snagged? Or are there other concerns for hunters that would make you hold the bow differently? 

In either case, I'm going to work on getting my arm a little straighter. Fortunately I'm not double jointed in my elbow - that would make string slap even more painful I'd think.


----------



## eric69 (Jan 11, 2012)

eric69 said:


> Good info! thanks - Is the caveat about 'If shooting targets' because of the clothes worn by hunters and the need to prevent the string getting snagged? Or are there other concerns for hunters that would make you hold the bow differently?
> 
> In either case, I'm going to work on getting my arm a little straighter. Fortunately I'm not double jointed in my elbow - that would make string slap even more painful I'd think.


Answered my question before I could get it posted.


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## Skeeter 58 (Jan 25, 2009)

XForce Girl said:


> Skeeter,
> This is a terrific thread.
> 
> I think back in the day most bows were 29 to 30" draw and that's just what people shot.
> ...


Thanks Marcy. I too just went through a dl change and shooting better than I have in years. I had to fine tune it by the same length as you, 1/2". And boy howdee, it def made a big difference for me too.

I agree that way to many of us shot to long of dl for a long time. And I have no doubts that many still are. 

Thus this thread, to try to help those that are recepetive to it. 

Nuts&Bolts is the real man on this stuff though. :thumbs_up

Skeet.


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## Skeeter 58 (Jan 25, 2009)

eric69 said:


> Good info! thanks - Is the caveat about 'If shooting targets' because of the clothes worn by hunters and the need to prevent the string getting snagged? Or are there other concerns for hunters that would make you hold the bow differently?
> 
> In either case, I'm going to work on getting my arm a little straighter. Fortunately I'm not double jointed in my elbow - that would make string slap even more painful I'd think.



Eric, I dont compete. I'm mostly a hunter and a back yard shooter. 

But I can tell you that I dont shoot my bow with my arm nearly straightend out. Never have been able to. It was using that idea that I keept lengthening my dl that caused all my problems.

I use a med/high grip. And it just wants to have a bend in my arm. Been shooting that way since back in the late 70's. Works for me. 

Now that I have my dl to where I call correct, there is even more of a bend im my arm. Thus my statement earlier on how it may feel too cramped up at first. But if you give it time, maybe only a couple of days, it will start to feel correct. Did for me anyway.

As for a hunting application with larger clothes on. Indeed, it can have an bearing on your shooting. I always have errored on the safe side and used an arm guard even though I dont shoot straight armed. 

With short brace height bows thats more of a concern even with an STS.

Skeet.


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## corey006 (Mar 7, 2003)

Lots of great info....should be a sticky and required reading for newbies.


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## Beentown (May 14, 2006)

Good thread Skeet. 

I read N&B tuning for draw length and used it setting up my current bow. It came at 28" DL and it was too short. Changed it to 28.5 and it was still too short. Now I am at 29" and it feels good but needed to tweak it down to 28.75" which is "just right" for me. 

The biggest suprise for me was the pin speed. My "figure 8" pin movement would speed up/slow down accordingly. Kinda neat to tune it via DL. These are the kind of threads I miss on AT...


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## fallhunter (Nov 23, 2010)

This is something I need to read more into. I am wondering if my draw length is right or not. I really hate to post a pic of how is my form, but maybe I need to.


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## jim p (Oct 29, 2003)

I took my bow and stood with my shoulder blades against a wall. I then drew the bow and my bow hand was 9" away from the wall. I then moved my bow hand to the wall and my anchor point moved from the back of my jaw bone to the tip of my chin. I don't know if I can turn my head far enough to aim if I tried to use the small triangle shooting form.

I may have to experiment with this some just to see how it works.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

jim p said:


> I took my bow and stood with my shoulder blades against a wall. I then drew the bow and my bow hand was 9" away from the wall. I then moved my bow hand to the wall and my anchor point moved from the back of my jaw bone to the tip of my chin. I don't know if I can turn my head far enough to aim if I tried to use the small triangle shooting form.
> 
> I may have to experiment with this some just to see how it works.


Gotta go with what is comfortable for you,
especially on the range of motion for turning your neck.

If bow hand on the wall, is too far for you to turn your neck and see through your peep sight...

then,
try 3 inches from the wall
or 6 inches from the wall.

You get the idea.


The goal is to get your bow hand as close to the wall,
when your shoulders are both touching the wall...

within the comfort limits of your neck turn capacity.


Yes,
when you get the bow hand closer to the wall,
the distance between your bow hand and your elbow on the release side GETS LONGER.

With your bow hand 9-INCHES from the wall,
you have a very WIDE triangle,
and
going to a MEDIUM narrow triangle,
you will probably need a different DL module.


For folks who were in a MEDIUM narrow triangle
and
trying out a NARROW triangle for the first time (like Scott Barnett),
he can use the same DL module setting,
and
the pin float gets much tighter and holds more steady.


So,
since you are at 9-inches away from the wall,
try 6-INCHES away from the wall,
and you can use the same DL module
and you should also experience a tighter pin float.


----------



## Macstrange (Apr 13, 2012)

I used the wingspan/2.5 and came up with 29.6". Centerline to base of wrist came to 29".


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

Macstrange said:


> I used the wingspan/2.5 and came up with 29.6". Centerline to base of wrist came to 29".


Try bows in the 29.5-inch range
and
try bows in the 29-inch range.

The pin float will tell you what you need to know.
Whatever draw length setting allows you to hold as steady as possible,
will be the draw length setting that works for you.

Only 1 problem,
most DL stickers on bows, these days, are usually under-reporting the draw length measurement.

So,
try 10 bows,
that ALL say 29-inches of draw length...

most likely,
some of those bows will be dead on at 29-inches,

some of those bows will be actually 29.25-inches,

some of those bows will be actually 1/2 to 3/4 inches LONGER than what is reported on the sticker.

Truly unfortunate.


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## Macstrange (Apr 13, 2012)

I have a Browning Eclipse. DL is 27"-31". I seem to have lost the manual and tried to find one on the net unsuccessfully. It looks like the cam is adjustable in 1/2' increments. What I did find ,though, is that the "A" position should be the longest and get shorter from there. But it's difficult to see how the letters correspond to the holes.
Great thread though. I've learned so much in the last couple of days from this sight it's amazing.
Shawn


----------



## Macstrange (Apr 13, 2012)

Macstrange said:


> I have a Browning Eclipse. DL is 27"-31". I seem to have lost the manual and tried to find one on the net unsuccessfully. It looks like the cam is adjustable in 1/2' increments. What I did find ,though, is that the "A" position should be the longest and get shorter from there. But it's difficult to see how the letters correspond to the holes.
> Great thread though. I've learned so much in the last couple of days from this sight it's amazing.
> Shawn


Ok, just found index mark.


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## Macstrange (Apr 13, 2012)

Ok, this is me with what I believe to be the 29" setting on the bow. Draw string is pulled wel beyond tip of my nose. Then I stood against a wall to make sure shoulders, arm, wrist were in line and bowstring was touching tip of my nose. Am i on the right track? I also noticed, when iI had my back against the wall, my peep seemed way to low.


----------



## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

Macstrange said:


> View attachment 1341953
> Ok, this is me with what I believe to be the 29" setting on the bow. Draw string is pulled wel beyond tip of my nose. Then I stood against a wall to make sure shoulders, arm, wrist were in line and bowstring was touching tip of my nose. Am i on the right track? I also noticed, when iI had my back against the wall, my peep seemed way to low.


1) Load an arrow onto the bow

2) Make sure that you are standing in front of a target bag, with the arrow loaded

3) Can we see a HEAD to TOE pic, with the string touching the tip of your nose, shoulders and bow arm in a line...string touching the tip of your nose


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## brd556 (Aug 22, 2011)

I started using the techniques in this thread to size up my daughters. One of them had great form and she was shooting 
with parallel shoulders. Quite accurately I might add. My older daughter was shooting and it just didn't add up. It seemed
the bow was really too long for her which I didn't understand because their wingspans are nearly identical. Her shooting
was much less accurate than her younger sister which really frustrated her. 

Last night I noticed her shooting and it hit me......she was shooting with a very wide triangle. I had her move to more of 
a parallel position and her bow fit better and her groups tightened right up. What a difference. I love this thread....thanks
for all the great info.


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## Macstrange (Apr 13, 2012)

nuts&bolts said:


> 1) Load an arrow onto the bow
> 
> 2) Make sure that you are standing in front of a target bag, with the arrow loaded
> 
> 3) Can we see a HEAD to TOE pic, with the string touching the tip of your nose, shoulders and bow arm in a line...string touching the tip of your nose


Yeah, I'll do what I can. I have to wait for the camera battery to charge.


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## corey006 (Mar 7, 2003)

Macstrange said:


> View attachment 1341953
> Ok, this is me with what I believe to be the 29" setting on the bow. Draw string is pulled wel beyond tip of my nose. Then I stood against a wall to make sure shoulders, arm, wrist were in line and bowstring was touching tip of my nose. Am i on the right track? I also noticed, when iI had my back against the wall, my peep seemed way to low.


IMHO, your draw length is about 2-2.5 too long?


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## Scott.Barrett (Oct 26, 2008)

Lots of wind here in Florida this weekend, but I am still seeing consistent improvements!

I've found that trying a closed stance, where my front foot is over the perpendicular line to the target helps me focus that front shoulder in to the bow. I naturally go back to an even perpendicular to the target position very soon, but my upper body position stays the same.

I've noticed a much steadier float, and great reduction in the left/right variation....when I get some calm winds, they are all in the 10 at 50m! Very happy with my progress thus far!!!

FYI, I used to shoot exactly like the before picture above....all kinds of angles and I never felt as steady as I could....

SB


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

Scott.Barrett said:


> Lots of wind here in Florida this weekend, but I am still seeing consistent improvements!
> 
> I've found that trying a closed stance, where my front foot is over the perpendicular line to the target helps me focus that front shoulder in to the bow. I naturally go back to an even perpendicular to the target position very soon, but my upper body position stays the same.
> 
> ...


Hello Scott:

If you can get an overhead photo,
that would be really GREAT!

It is a difficult photo to get,
cuz the photographer needs to be on a tall ladder,
and the camera lens needs to be pointed as close to straight down as possible.

Other option,
is a tall ladder,
set directly behind your elbow
and
aim the camera downhill,
and
have the lens pointed towards the target.

Camera lens has to be in line with the arrow, with the release side forearm.


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## eric69 (Jan 11, 2012)

Skeet,

I'm glad you said that. I twisted up my cables enough so that I could get my arm straight, but it felt odd. I figured if I did it enough, I'd get used to it. Think I'll go back to letting my elbow bend a little then. 

-Eric


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## Macstrange (Apr 13, 2012)

corey006 said:


> IMHO, your draw length is about 2-2.5 too long?


That would seem so based on this photo, but, as I said, when standing against a wall with shoulders flat and wrist against wall, the bow string moved to the tip of my nose.


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## Macstrange (Apr 13, 2012)

Here's a top view.







I'm not nearly as straight here as I should be I think.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

Macstrange said:


> Here's a top view.
> View attachment 1342083
> 
> I'm not nearly as straight here as I should be I think.


Can we get a front view,
head to toe photo?

Overhead photo,
seems to show you leaning back a bit,
away from the target.

Might need to shorten the bow DL setting,
but
need the head to toe view,
to confirm.


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## Macstrange (Apr 13, 2012)

here's the front view


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

Macstrange said:


> here's the front view
> 
> View attachment 1342152


Leaning backwards, away from the target
in order to get the nose to touch the string.

So,
if you have DL modules available,
try 1-inch shorter.

Touch your nose to the string,
with the 1-INCH shorter DL,
and your shooting should be much easier,
more accurate.


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## BAMBRANCH (Oct 17, 2008)

nuts&bolts said:


> Leaning backwards, away from the target
> in order to get the nose to touch the string.
> 
> So,
> ...


Ive been shooting along time and I dont see that..... I do think he could raise his Peep about an 1/8TH...............
And with his hand open like that and no sling hes gonna have a tendency to grab the bow at the shot.........
He needs to rotate his elbow a little too................


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## Macstrange (Apr 13, 2012)

I'll be replacing the sling. This is another shot with the same DL, 28.5" I think.







This is a shot at 28"


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## BAMBRANCH (Oct 17, 2008)

Macstrange said:


> I'll be replacing the sling. This is another shot with the same DL, 28.5" I think.
> View attachment 1342168
> 
> This is a shot at 28"
> View attachment 1342176


I think you labeled the backwards and if so go with the 28.5


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## field14 (May 21, 2002)

Little tid-bit for ya: Hard stops are NOT necessarily HARD stops....AND...most shooters think that they are indeed hard stops and they come to EXACTLY the same point every single time....WRONG! TOP LEVEL shooters' to anchor DL is very, very well controlled to probably within 1/16" every single time...that is much of the reason why they hit those X-s and baby X's so consistently! Their "to anchor DL" is PERFECT. 
Mid level shooters vary about 1/4" to 1/2" in their to anchor DL from shot to shot, end to end, and it gets worse as the round and number of arrows increases. Beginners? Their to anchor DL is all over the board...STOPS or not...sometimes "into" the stops, sometimes "INTO" the stops, sometimes HARD into the stops...

Now for the bomb: For each 1/8" HARDER you pull into the stops....your HOLDING WEIGHT will INCREASE by 1#! So, you are imparting all sorts of problems into this if you aren't properly set with the consistent and CORRECT draw length. You all know what happens if you CREEP forward...hahahaha, but few every realize or even think about it when you pull too hard or just right, or a little too weak, or somewhere in between...and what happens is not good for accuracy.
Like the thread says, "DRAW LENGTH IS EVERYTHING"...and within 1/4" doesn't cut it....1/8" is better, but 1/16" is where you wanna be, consistently from shot to shot, end to end, and round to round. It doesn't come by a "formula" or a "table" or by FEEL for a couple of shots, or a "how does my DL look thread"...it comes from committment and hard work and taking your time...and...not changing it every time you shoot, just cuz yesterday it "felt" good, but today I'm not hitting enough X's....so let's CHANGE IT.

Yes, you need to find the upper and lower limits for YOUR situation, and again that takes time and practice and shooting MANY full rounds (not ends) of arrows, taking pictures or keeping targets and then comparing things...and keeping a JOURNAL...

field14 (Tom D.)


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## brd556 (Aug 22, 2011)

Either one looks good to me. On the 28.5" your head is back just a bit, and in the 28" your 
head looks like you are "craning" forward just a bit. Which ever one your feel more "comfy"
with.....just stick with it.


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## Macstrange (Apr 13, 2012)

That "Power Triangle" is a difficult stance, For me anyway.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

Macstrange said:


> here's the front view
> 
> View attachment 1342152





















RED dashed line is the belt buckle....CENTER of the hips

GREEN dashed line is the center of the bottom of the t-shirt neck line,
which is where the adams apple / center of neck / center of head is located.


So,
since the GREEN line is behind the RED LINE...

this means that the bow DL is too long,
this means that the weight is MORE on the right leg, and not balanced evenly between both legs
this means that MOST of the pulling tension is in the upper arm, and not the back, due to the backbone leaning backwards.

So,
if you can easily reduce the draw length 1-INCH,
then,
give it a try,
and your shooting accuracy should go up nicely.


Even though you are standing on level ground,
the bow shoulder is popping up slightly 
(coaches will call this a collapsing bow shoulder)
and
your bow hand is dropping slightly below shoulder height,
to take up the EXTRA bow DL...

so,
shorten the bow DL 1-INCH,
keep the same anchor touch points
and
your upper body will automatically straighten up 
(upper body will have to lean FORWARDS, towards the target)
weight will go EQUAL on both legs,
and
the bow hand will also come up to shoulder height,
with the 1-INCH shorter DL.


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## field14 (May 21, 2002)

BAMBRANCH said:


> Ive been shooting along time and I dont see that..... I do think he could raise his Peep about an 1/8TH...............
> And with his hand open like that and no sling hes gonna have a tendency to grab the bow at the shot.........
> He needs to rotate his elbow a little too................


You don't see the high bow shoulder and the FACT that he's leaning back? I caught those two instantly... I know from experience that Nuts & Bolts is probably danged near spot on with his assessment...and neither of us have seen the poster from directly BEHIND HIM to see where his drawing elbow is in relation to the line of the bowstring and arrow.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

Macstrange said:


> That "Power Triangle" is a difficult stance, For me anyway.


Pick whatever draw length is more comfortable for you.

A shorter DL setting,
will have you in a "wider" triangle,
if this is more comfortable for you.

Whatever DL is more comfortable for you,
SHOULD give you the better arrow group sizes.

Try not to confuse "comfortable" with "different".

Anything that feels "different" may seem uncomfortable.
If you have to strain your neck, to turn your head....don't use that draw length setting.

If you feel you have to stretch out too far....don't use that draw length setting.


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## BAMBRANCH (Oct 17, 2008)

brd556 said:


> Either one looks good to me. On the 28.5" your head is back just a bit, and in the 28" your
> head looks like you are "craning" forward just a bit. Which ever one your feel more "comfy"
> with.....just stick with it.


Like I said ( Im not gonna draw any lines and graphs ) The 28.5 and raise the peep a scoche....


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## Macstrange (Apr 13, 2012)

The pic on 4:35 post shows me leaning back just a little. The first pic in the 5:05 post is nearly the same. The second pic in the 5:05 looks like I'm standing straighter.
FIELD14
You're absolutley right. Practice practice practice. I'm just trying to find a starting point. I was never happy with the way my archery shop set this bow up. I've finally decided to take care of it myself, with the help of the knowledgable folks on this site.


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## BAMBRANCH (Oct 17, 2008)

Macstrange said:


> I'll be replacing the sling. This is another shot with the same DL, 28.5" I think.
> View attachment 1342168
> 
> This is a shot at 28"
> View attachment 1342176


Like I said I think you labeled them backwards and what ever draw you are shooting in the bottom PIC do it and raise the peep an 1/8th.........


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## BAMBRANCH (Oct 17, 2008)

nuts&bolts said:


> Pick whatever draw length is more comfortable for you.
> 
> A shorter DL setting,
> will have you in a "wider" triangle,
> ...


A wider triangle will cause his bow hand to move to his left at the shot. An inch shorter, give me a break.... his form is almost impecceable...


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## hatchettjack (Jan 16, 2012)

the only thing i see is the peep looks a scoche too low


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## rdhj (Dec 29, 2010)

JHM said:


> Like the op said proper draw length is everything. But, what is the right draw length for the individual can be hard to determine. Show three different experts a picture of an archers draw length and you may get three different opinions. A draw that is way too long is easy to spot. A 1/2" to short or 3/4" to long not so much. Our bodies are all different. I would suggest the photos of Randy Ulmer are a good reference. Also, there are many here who are very helpful.


You are so right on getting different answers....i had someone tell me i was two sort, so i whent 1/2 longer and started shooting better...newer bow felt a little short, and asked one of my shop guys to look at my draw length and he says it looked too long...go figure


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## BAMBRANCH (Oct 17, 2008)

nuts&bolts said:


> RED dashed line is the belt buckle....CENTER of the hips
> 
> GREEN dashed line is the center of the bottom of the t-shirt neck line,
> which is where the adams apple / center of neck / center of head is located.
> ...


WOW I aggree with yo on 95% of things you say. But this time you are wrong. The reason a person leans forward or backward has absolutly nothing to do with draw lenght. Your lines and arrows and graphs will not help you convince of anything. FACT is he is a small framed guy and is leaning back to compinsate for the weight of the bow. PLAIN and simple.... Look at Chance B. shoot and his stance is Very closed. The Wilde boys can shoot an open stance cause they have alot more body MASS. If you were really a coach you would understand that different sized people need to shoot different ways. I have trained with some of the best coaches in the world and they all have taught me this.


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## BAMBRANCH (Oct 17, 2008)

hatchettjack said:


> the only thing i see is the peep looks a scoche too low


100% right and thats it.........


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## Skeeter 58 (Jan 25, 2009)

nuts&bolts said:


> RED dashed line is the belt buckle....CENTER of the hips
> 
> GREEN dashed line is the center of the bottom of the t-shirt neck line,
> which is where the adams apple / center of neck / center of head is located.
> ...



N&B, this is the same information I used to fine tune my DL and it worked out quite nicely.

By looking at the close up pic of the shooters face, we can surmize that the rear of the fletchings is exactly where the rear of the arrow [front of the nock] should be. 

And for those that has not seen other graphs that N&B did, it clearly shows how much better the arrow will be inline with the shooters face IF the rear of arrow [front of nock] is directly below the out side curvature of the eye ball. 

Worked for me. 

Skeet.


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## Macstrange (Apr 13, 2012)

I want to thank you all for your input. It has been extremely helpful. 28.5 seems to be the ticket at the moment. I did have to move the peep up quite a bit, to the position it is in in the pic. It seems to be the most natural. Here is my new problem. By moving the peep up and bowstring to the tip of my nose, the peep is now so far away from my eye that i cannot see the sight ring through the peep. Can I get a larger peep?


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## brd556 (Aug 22, 2011)

Macstrange said:


> I want to thank you all for your input. It has been extremely helpful. 28.5 seems to be the ticket at the moment. I did have to move the peep up quite a bit, to the position it is in in the pic. It seems to be the most natural. Here is my new problem. By moving the peep up and bowstring to the tip of my nose, the peep is now so far away from my eye that i cannot see the sight ring through the peep. Can I get a larger peep?



Yep, thats what I would do....go one size larger.


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## Macker (Mar 22, 2007)

Macstrange said:


> I want to thank you all for your input. It has been extremely helpful. 28.5 seems to be the ticket at the moment. I did have to move the peep up quite a bit, to the position it is in in the pic. It seems to be the most natural. Here is my new problem. By moving the peep up and bowstring to the tip of my nose, the peep is now so far away from my eye that i cannot see the sight ring through the peep. Can I get a larger peep?


The best advice i could give you is to do whatever nuts&bolts tells you.


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## Macstrange (Apr 13, 2012)

Macker said:


> The best advice i could give you is to do whatever nuts&bolts tells you.


Yeah, he seems autistically knowledgable. I think Bam had some excellent points also. I'll get a larger peep today and start throwing shafts down range and see how everything works.
Oh yeah, Ha Ha.


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## Macstrange (Apr 13, 2012)

Ok, I got the new peep, took a few shots, and I'm amazed. My confidence is soaring right now. I just need to replace my target because the arrows are going through and smacking my mud wall.
Thanks again everyone,
You hav'nt heard the last of me,
Shawn


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## Skeeter 58 (Jan 25, 2009)

Macstrange said:


> Ok, I got the new peep, took a few shots, and I'm amazed. My confidence is soaring right now. I just need to replace my target because the arrows are going through and smacking my mud wall.
> Thanks again everyone,
> You hav'nt heard the last of me,
> Shawn


Shawn, I am so glad it has worked out for you. I too, went to a large peep about 6 years ago and I still shoot pretty dang well with them. 

Just by total accident [needed a peep and thats all the shop had] I tried a big ole 5/16" Meta Peep. That thing looked huge, and still does lol, but I can still see through it until black dark. 

Some 40 yard groups with the 5/16" Meta Peeps.

Works for me.


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## Macstrange (Apr 13, 2012)

Skeeter 58 said:


> Shawn, I am so glad it has worked out for you. I too, went to a large peep about 6 years ago and I still shoot pretty dang well with them.
> 
> Just by total accident [needed a peep and thats all the shop had] I tried a big ole 5/16" Meta Peep. That thing looked huge, and still does lol, but I can still see through it until black dark.
> 
> ...


Very nice groups. I can't shoot like that yet but very happy with results to this point.


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## buckhunter1 (May 25, 2009)

Congrats Mac! Glad to see you got it atleast comfortable. just curious, do you know what your drawlength is using the wingspan or buttons method that was mentioned earlier?


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## Crow Terminator (Jan 21, 2003)

Very good thread. I noticed with my target setup that when I can get into what looks like the "power triangle", that I feel too long when executing back tension. It feels like I am over extending. When I go to a 1/2 inch shorter draw length, it obviously makes my anchor point seem short but when shooting with back tension I can execute the shot better without throwing shots to the left...in which it does with the 1/2 inch longer setting. Make any sense to ya'll?


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## Skeeter 58 (Jan 25, 2009)

Macstrange said:


> Very nice groups. I can't shoot like that yet but very happy with results to this point.


Thanks man.

I don't always shoot that good of 40 yard groups. But I can get pretty close to it. 

Having the proper DL helps a lot for sure.

Skeet.


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## Macstrange (Apr 13, 2012)

buckhunter1 said:


> Congrats Mac! Glad to see you got it atleast comfortable. just curious, do you know what your drawlength is using the wingspan or buttons method that was mentioned earlier?


Wing span = 29.6
button method = 29
settled on 28.5


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## buckhunter1 (May 25, 2009)

Macstrange said:


> Wing span = 29.6
> button method = 29
> settled on 28.5


Interesting, Sounds about right.. I am getting anywhere from 27.75-28.75 and I think I am settling on 27.5.


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## BAMBRANCH (Oct 17, 2008)

I cant help myself but I was reminded of a line in a Arlo Guthrie song by N&Bs posts......

And they was using up all kinds of
cop equipment that they had hanging around the police officer's station.
They was taking plaster tire tracks, foot prints, dog smelling prints, and
they took twenty seven eight-by-ten colour glossy photographs with circles
and arrows and a paragraph on the back of each one explaining what each
one was to be used as evidence against us. Took pictures of the approach,
the getaway, the northwest corner the southwest corner and that's not to
mention the aerial photography.

Im sorry but thats funny, I dont care who you are.....


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## Skeeter 58 (Jan 25, 2009)

buckhunter1 said:


> Interesting, Sounds about right.. I am getting anywhere from 27.75-28.75 and I think I am settling on 27.5.


There should not be that much of a variation. It should be one number even though it may or may not work out correctly. 

Did you stand against a wall with your arms extended and have someone put a mark on the wall at the end of each bird finger?

Best way I have found yet, and then measure that distance / by 2.5

Workes for me. 

Skeet.


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## Skeeter 58 (Jan 25, 2009)

Bump for the ones searching for answers to their DL.


Skeet.


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## bowtechfanatic1 (Jan 27, 2011)

bookmark


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## MDB (Mar 10, 2006)

Saved to email and bookmark.


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## killerevo7 (Jul 2, 2012)

So ii just did the button test..i mmeasured 26 3/4..my bow iis currently at 27.5..i feel comfortable and im very accurate but i do notice alot of bouncing around the target..i rlyy hate to drop a full inch of length and lose the speed but i am going to try it out and see if it helps with holding..awesome thread..learning more and more evveryday..


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

killerevo7 said:


> So ii just did the button test..i mmeasured 26 3/4..my bow iis currently at 27.5..i feel comfortable and im very accurate but i do notice alot of bouncing around the target..i rlyy hate to drop a full inch of length and lose the speed but i am going to try it out and see if it helps with holding..awesome thread..learning more and more evveryday..


Try and adjust at 1/2-inch adjustments...
try 1/2-inch shorter first
and shoot that way for 2-3 weeks
and keep track of your average group size
and target scores.

Need to give time for the new draw length to settle in,
and build adequate muscle memory.


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## killerevo7 (Jul 2, 2012)

Whats it goingg to do to mmy kisser and peep though..i dont have a press and closest shop is 45 minutes away..makes tinkering around a complete pain in the butt.


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## Skeeter 58 (Jan 25, 2009)

killerevo7 said:


> Whats it goingg to do to mmy kisser and peep though..i dont have a press and closest shop is 45 minutes away..makes tinkering around a complete pain in the butt.



You can tie a kisser on with just about anything to experiment with. Dental floss works great. 

Or, you could use a brass nock, or a chunk of D-loop material tied like the first knot of a loop.


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## Standbanger (Jun 15, 2010)

I am lost for sure kinda like Skeet cutting his arrows twice and they are still to short.


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## killerevo7 (Jul 2, 2012)

I think maybe my issue is i need to lengthen my draw..im not a real strong person and when i shorten it im even more shaky because my bow arm is bent eeven more than before.. when i extend my bow arm to the point that my elbow locks then i can hold alot more steady i jjust rly hate string slap..ill try to get the wife to take some pictures and have yall chheck me out. The draw iis at 27a righht now..i just feel its too short to hold my bow arm steady..


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## killerevo7 (Jul 2, 2012)

Ttt


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## bowtechfanatic1 (Jan 27, 2011)

Hey N&B when measuring draw length on draw board, where should you measure from, and what should the measurements be compared to actual length?

thanks


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## Skeeter 58 (Jan 25, 2009)

bowtechfanatic1 said:


> Hey N&B when measuring draw length on draw board, where should you measure from, and what should the measurements be compared to actual length?
> 
> thanks


Guess I'll chime in on this one and try to answer your question.

A drawboard is set up so the measuring stick has the + 1.75" in front of the deepest part of the grip. It's actually 1.75" in front of the of the post. That's where the measuring stick begins at and goes rearward.

That is called AMO standard. 

From there all you do is get the bow to full draw and see where the nock point on the string lines up on the measuring stick.


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## papachuby (Nov 19, 2008)

Up for those who have never read this thread.

Sent from my PG86100 using Tapatalk 2


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## Skeeter 58 (Jan 25, 2009)

Seems to be a lot of DL questions lately so bump for those folks.


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## 5965derek (Oct 6, 2012)

Marked for later. Great thread


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## swbuckmaster (Dec 20, 2005)

BAMBRANCH said:


> A wider triangle will cause his bow hand to move to his left at the shot. An inch shorter, give me a break.... his form is almost impecceable...


I will agree with nuts and field on this one and say your incorrect!

In his photos his bow shoulder was high and he was leaning back. 

In the photo you used as an example his bow hand is lower than his bow shoulder. That will make it harder to aim on the dot. Bow will want to drop out the bottom. Bow weight will cause front shoulder to pop up all indications of too long a draw!


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## monaro (Oct 25, 2013)

Bump , just because it is a great thread


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## blazingsaddle (Feb 25, 2009)

Sub-freaking-scribed
Great info.


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## Skeeter 58 (Jan 25, 2009)

monaro said:


> Bump , just because it is a great thread


Indeed, some very good questions and answers in this thread. 

I actually was toying around with my DL on my most recent bow just yesterday. Still some things to consider and test due to being able to change the let off.


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## kcbuckeraser (Sep 7, 2005)

Interesting about the hat size. I wear a 7 5/8 fitted hat. My wingspan is 69 5/8 so I am looking at a dl of 27.85. I shot a 29" bow for a long time and now shoot a 28" after I started reading archerytalk a few years back, and it improved my shooting immensely. Always wondered if I shouldn't try 27 1/2.


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## RuntCX2 (Oct 8, 2012)

Hopefully I got the picture correct the way Nut's & Bolt's like them pinned against a straight line. 

This is the best I can do by myself. Made a video with my wife's notebook thingy and took the best pic of it on pause. She give's me a strange look every time I draw my bow back in the house after one went through the wall.

Elite Answer set as close as possible to 28 inch draw length with what I had to work with. I changed from a solid shank Scott Shark when I had the 27 inch mod's to a NCS strap Scott Shark. My finger is right behind the trigger. My d-loop is 5¾ inch's from burned end to end. From where the nock butt's against the string to where the end of the loop is right at 1.5 inch's tied to get to where I like to anchor. 

I do have a hand injury, a 12 gauge blast through the palm and out the top, lost my index finger and limited use/movement of thumb.

Since I lengthened my loop my bow shoulder don't hurt nearly as much, still a little. 

I'm trying to get everything dialed in. So when I order my Bowa hopefully in 2 week's I can have the correct mod's, new string's for all 3 bow's. If I have to go longer I'm going have to find some 3.1 RKT Cam's for my Hoyt. 

Tell me what yall think.


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## nhns4 (Sep 25, 2010)

Dloop way to long. Change your draw length


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## RuntCX2 (Oct 8, 2012)

I have some 28.5 mod's already spoken for. He's waiting to get to a shop to change them out. The reasoning of the long d-loop was to get to anchor with no bend in my bow arm to see exactly where I was at. As I lengthen draw length I'm going to shorten d-loop enough to maintain full expansion with little to no bend in bow arm.


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## big cypress (Jul 31, 2006)

okay , this intrigued me and i thought i might find it helpful so read SOME of it . i was curious about the measurement of distance shirt button to wrist/palm . i'm 72'' tall with a 75'' wing span and wife measured button to wrist at 30'' . last time a wore a hat it was 7-5/8 and was 1968 when i got out of air force , never wore a hat again . hat size scenario strikes me as some what ''iffy'' as a determinant since some peoples heads are deep front to back and narrow side to side while others are just the opposite and there are infinite variations in between . in any case , i could never shoot a 30'' draw bow . i've always shot 29'' and have been thinking of shortening that because i feel i'm not drawing into the letoff as far as i should , i'm shooting without rotating the WHEELS as far as i should . i shoot FINGERS , the only way to shoot, and with a bent bow arm and feel i have been leaving arm to bent thus the problem of not drawing all the way . i have to admit i kind of like that feeling which probably indicates i'd be happier with less letoff . by the way , just happened to measure my draw the other day and from cushion plunger to throat of nock was 27 3/4 . that is done by putting a little disc of paper on the arrow and drawing then letting down and measuring nock to disc distance as disc catches on plunger button and slides out arrow toward tip. interesting article , thanks to all . . . .peace ......ps. i tend to think the only important thing about form is that it be repeatable and trying to duplicate your favorite great archers form may do you more harm than good . google bowlers ''wrong foot lou campi'' or ''the mad bomber- don carter'' both had horrible form and were WINNERS .


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

big cypress said:


> okay , this intrigued me and i thought i might find it helpful so read SOME of it . i was curious about the measurement of distance shirt button to wrist/palm . i'm 72'' tall with a 75'' wing span and wife measured button to wrist at 30'' . last time a wore a hat it was 7-5/8 and was 1968 when i got out of air force , never wore a hat again . hat size scenario strikes me as some what ''iffy'' as a determinant since some peoples heads are deep front to back and narrow side to side while others are just the opposite and there are infinite variations in between . in any case , i could never shoot a 30'' draw bow . i've always shot 29'' and have been thinking of shortening that because i feel i'm not drawing into the letoff as far as i should , i'm shooting without rotating the WHEELS as far as i should . i shoot FINGERS , the only way to shoot, and with a bent bow arm and feel i have been leaving arm to bent thus the problem of not drawing all the way . i have to admit i kind of like that feeling which probably indicates i'd be happier with less letoff . by the way , just happened to measure my draw the other day and from cushion plunger to throat of nock was 27 3/4 . that is done by putting a little disc of paper on the arrow and drawing then letting down and measuring nock to disc distance as disc catches on plunger button and slides out arrow toward tip. interesting article , thanks to all . . . .peace ......ps. i tend to think the only important thing about form is that it be repeatable and trying to duplicate your favorite great archers form may do you more harm than good . google bowlers ''wrong foot lou campi'' or ''the mad bomber- don carter'' both had horrible form and were WINNERS .


1) bent bow arm

2) plunger to throat of the nock = 27-3/4 (True DL) which means, even though you THINK you are shooting 29-inches...you are actually shooting *29.5-inches of AMO DL.*

3) bent bow arm, so you are shooting a DL shorter than what the "shirt button to wrist/palm" measurement = 30-inches.

so,
the conclusion is that the shirt button to wrist/palm measurement is pretty accurate (it presumes an un-bent bow arm).


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## Skeeter 58 (Jan 25, 2009)

nuts&bolts said:


> 1) bent bow arm
> 
> 2) plunger to throat of the nock = 27-3/4 (True DL) which means, even though you THINK you are shooting 29-inches...you are actually shooting *29.5-inches of AMO DL.*
> 
> ...


Interesting, Alan. I know what DL I usually shoot....28 1/4" respectively. But yesterday while experimenting with the rotating mods and draw stops, and playing around with different let off, I wound up with a little too short if DL....27 3/4". My bow arm was bent more than it should be, but man was I ever stable on the dot. 

Then I tried my T-handle release which is even shorter yet in terms of my anchor point, and I shot better than I have in a long time. Yes the let off was not as much [80 % compared to 85%] so that is definitely a consideration. 

I just got in from shooting out back. I had tweaked the tune of my bow earlier and put the stops back where they were, which I believe to be a tad too long....28 3/8", but I shot well and my bow arm was straighter. 

In all honesty, the shorter DL and T-handle release felt better to me even though my bow arm was bent a fair amount. I still have to try to get the combo right so I can shoot a shorter DL with more let off....85%. I like how the cams locks into position. Easier on my old shoulders.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

Skeeter 58 said:


> Interesting for sure. I know what DL I usually shoot....28 1/4" respectively. But yesterday while experimenting with the rotating mods and draw stops, and playing around with different let off, I wound up with a little too short if DL....27 3/4". My bow arm was bent more than it should be, but man was I ever stable on the dot.
> 
> Then I tried my T-handle release which is even shorter yet in terms of my anchor point, and I shot better than I have in a long time. Yes the let off was not as much [80 % compared to 85%] so that is definitely a consideration.
> 
> ...



Examine your assumptions.
Let the experiments run
and look at photos of your arrow hole patterns.

I call the concept the "TOTAL SPREAD DISTANCE"...

which is the pivot point (where your bow hand touches the deepest part of the curve...riser grip area)
to
the TIP of your release arm elbow.

So,
this is a choo-choo train, composed of SEVERAL parts.

1) You have the bow arm (no bend in the elbow...some bend in the elbow...medium amount of bend angle...more than medium amount of bend angle).
....This AFFECTS the TOTAL SPREAD DISTANCE.

2) You have the alignment of the shoulders
....This AFFECTS the TOTAL SPREAD DISTANCE.



3) you have the NECK LENGTH for your various releases
....this REALLY affects the TOTAL SPREAD DISTANCE



4) the CURL of your fingers around the handle release...tight curl for your fingers around the handle...barely hanging onto the handle with just the pads of your fingertips
....this REALLY affects the TOTAL SPREAD DISTANCE
....back of hand is a TIGHT FIST
....back of hand is a medium tight fist
....back of hand if FLAT and extended

5) WRIST is BENT on release hand
....this REALLY affects the TOTAL SPREAD DISTANCE



or wrist is INLINE with the forearm bones




WRIST higher than the elbow (release side)
is a major issue I see on occasion.

If folks have CONFUSION about an inline wrist...

try a wrist splint.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

Skeeter 58 said:


> Interesting, Alan. I know what DL I usually shoot....28 1/4" respectively. But yesterday while experimenting with the rotating mods and draw stops, and playing around with different let off, I wound up with a little too short if DL....27 3/4". My bow arm was bent more than it should be, but man was I ever stable on the dot.
> 
> Then I tried my T-handle release which is even shorter yet in terms of my anchor point, and I shot better than I have in a long time. Yes the let off was not as much [80 % compared to 85%] so that is definitely a consideration.
> 
> ...


I hear you about the old shoulders.

FIVE things to experiment with,
for "TOTAL SPREAD DISTANCE".

The bent bow arm style is more difficult to master,
but,
it CAN work. Just takes more discipline.


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## Skeeter 58 (Jan 25, 2009)

Some good information, Alan. I appreciate it. 

I still have some experimenting to do and it will take a little while to do so.

What I see happening with the 27 3/4" DL, and using my T-handle release is, my anchor point is more in front of my face. I see that Randy Ulmer and some other top shooters anchor(s) to be about the same location. Some use a longer D-loop too. 

But their bow arm is straight and mine is not. I cannot shoot a low grip, just ain't gonna happen. But for whatever reason, the bent bow arm gives me more stability??? 

What I did by accident that customized my DL when I used to shoot Elite bows was to use a custom full TorqueLess Grip. It shortened my DL by 5/16", thus I had longer draw mods on the bow, but it fit very well.


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## wbates (Jul 24, 2010)

Nuts&Bolts, I have been thinking my draw was a bit long. Its currently 28.5 and sometimes I catch myself leaning slightly. I shoot very well most of the time.
From messing with form and photos my ideal draw is around 28.25 or 1/4. I did your measurement formula going to the center of the chest and out to the finger ect ect. Came up
with 28.25 lol


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## b2sandshee (Nov 24, 2008)

Love reading this info. Thanks for your time skeeter!


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## Skeeter 58 (Jan 25, 2009)

b2sandshee said:


> Love reading this info. Thanks for your time skeeter!


Any time bro. Gotta love the archery stuff.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

wbates said:


> Nuts&Bolts, I have been thinking my draw was a bit long. Its currently 28.5 and sometimes I catch myself leaning slightly. I shoot very well most of the time.
> From messing with form and photos my ideal draw is around 28.25 or 1/4. I did your measurement formula going to the center of the chest and out to the finger ect ect. Came up
> with 28.25 lol


There are guidelines, to speed up the "discovery process"
and then,
you just shoot and experiment
and find what it takes to cut your groups in half.


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## deafcon2 (Sep 6, 2010)

Great post


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## jhicks54 (Jan 8, 2011)

nuts&bolts said:


> There are guidelines, to speed up the "discovery process"
> and then,
> you just shoot and experiment
> and find what it takes to cut your groups in half.


This is another great thing about Alan (aside from his unbelievable knowledge and helpfulness). He's not overly dogmatic about his conclusions. He presents his experience in a way that helps you to arrive at a "discovery" on your own. One would be wise to go through all the steps he recommends.....


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## Shooter78 (Jul 22, 2009)

tag for a good read


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## Skeeter 58 (Jan 25, 2009)

jhicks54 said:


> This is another great thing about Alan (aside from his unbelievable knowledge and helpfulness). He's not overly dogmatic about his conclusions. He presents his experience in a way that helps you to arrive at a "discovery" on your own. One would be wise to go through all the steps he recommends.....


Yes indeed. Alan has been an awesome asset to this site.


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## Tim Snyder (Jan 22, 2011)

great read for sure


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## 40tude (Oct 25, 2014)

Just wanted to say thanks for the great thread!


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## Perfect Harvest (Mar 7, 2014)

Lots of good info here......bump


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## VenisonChops (Sep 5, 2016)

Bump....Can't stress this enough. Im thinking my BS tear nock left is because my DL is too long. Just got a new 1/2" shorter cam today, gonna swap em out and see if that helps.


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## dlehnert (Dec 17, 2014)

Tag on a good read


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## 3D Pinwheeler (Jan 29, 2007)

Bump for anyone who hasn't seen this


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## THE ELKMAN (Jan 2, 2013)

Skeeter 58 said:


> I realize many of you out there already know this, but I thought I would say a few things for our newer members about proper dl and how critical it really is to better accuracy.
> 
> I've come full circle on many aspects of archery over the last 31 years or so. And if there is one thing that I would like to get across as being perhaps the number one factor in accuracy, shooter comfort, and to that satisfying feeling we as successful archers strive for, it's proper dl.
> 
> ...


Agreed. But the truth is 1/8" of an inch can make a HUGE difference...


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

THE ELKMAN said:


> Agreed. But the truth is 1/8" of an inch can make a HUGE difference...


Some haven't got this figured out yet. And some say they can tell .040". 
....
....
Switching over to a hinge from a thumb release has caused me more grief than anything. Set the overall draw length and switch to another release. ??? Dang draw length is off. Yep, all releases aren't created equal. 

.330" difference in hook up.


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## Dilleytech (Dec 29, 2017)

Is it true that “proper draw length” doesn’t fall the same for everyone? I’m talking where the nock sits next to your face. For me a comfortable anchor point and a slightly relaxed bow arm. If a picture was taken I’m sure most would say my draw length is to long. But it’s really subjective to an individual isn’t it? Curious to others opinions.


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## capool (Aug 5, 2003)

What if you really don’t know what your dL


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## SDMac (Sep 20, 2016)

Thank you to whoever dusted off this thread. N&B is great to work with. He has been helping me recently with my draw length. I had shot a bow for about 16 years with a 27.5" DL (factory spec-not measured). A year ago, I got an Halon 32 with 27.5 mods. It actually measures at about 28 1/4". This is way to long for me. I was leaning back drastically. Just put on 1/2" shorter mods. Still leaning back slightly. Going to drop another 1/2" and see where that puts me. If not for N&B, I would not be where I am today with my shooting and I still have a ways to go. Thanks for your help N&B. It is appreciated.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

Dilleytech said:


> Is it true that “proper draw length” doesn’t fall the same for everyone? I’m talking where the nock sits next to your face. For me a comfortable anchor point and a slightly relaxed bow arm. If a picture was taken I’m sure most would say my draw length is to long. But it’s really subjective to an individual isn’t it? Curious to others opinions.


Comfy means nothing. Results means everything. Period. Play with draw length, and keep tweaking until your groups are shrinking to a new personal best ever in your life. Nothing subjective about shooting tighter groups. Really is that simple. If you are happy with your groups, don't change a thing. If you want to find out your TRUE accuracy potential, play with draw length, and a few other things.










20 yards. He fired one arrow 21 times into the same freakin hole. That's a 1/4-inch group at 20 yards. AND, he's 70 years old. When you get to this point, don't change your draw length. If you are not to this level yet, keep experimenting.


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

capool said:


> What if you really don’t know what your dL


And you won't with all the formulas and manners of check for draw length. All formulas and manners only get you in the ball park. So find a formula and start there. It won't be perfect, just a starting point. No two people are the same, any physical feature effects DL and release can further effect draw length. This is your draw length, not the bows. The bow is to be fitted to the person. 

Two easy ball park formulas; Wing Span is arms spread out, measuring tip of middle finger to opposite middle finger - Natural spread, not forced.
Wing Span - 15 / 2 = DL
Wing Span / 2.5 =DL


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## indiana35 (Jun 21, 2006)

SonnyThomas' post above NAILED IT! Sonny if you ever find a back tension and thumb that are IDENTICAL, please let me know.


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## Laars (Apr 26, 2015)

nuts&bolts said:


> SAME SHOOTER.
> 
> String touches da tip of da NOSE in each picture.
> 
> ...


Playing with draw length is a good thing to help you find where you hold better. Same with trying different weights on the stabilizers. Try more weight, less weight, see what works best. Tweaking your D-loop can make a big difference. Something as small as that.

Just remember there are many ways to do it, and sometimes the guys that shoot lights out don't fit into the box. Like Reo Wilde, He is leaning back just like this guy did, and he is a pretty damn good shot.


Chance Beaubouef shoots with a bent left elbow.


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## schwanman (Mar 2, 2015)

Laars said:


> Playing with draw length is a good thing to help you find where you hold better. Same with trying different weights on the stabilizers. Try more weight, less weight, see what works best. Tweaking your D-loop can make a big difference. Something as small as that.
> 
> Just remember there are many ways to do it, and sometimes the guys that shoot lights out don't fit into the box. Like Reo Wilde, He is leaning back just like this guy did, and he is a pretty damn good shot.
> 
> ...


I don't think that anybody would argue that some people are able to overcome "form" issues and still be great shooters. I also believe though that few would argue that being as close to "perfect" form will be the fastest way to improvement for most people.


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## schwanman (Mar 2, 2015)

nuts&bolts said:


> Comfy means nothing. Results means everything. Period. Play with draw length, and keep tweaking until your groups are shrinking to a new personal best ever in your life. Nothing subjective about shooting tighter groups. Really is that simple. If you are happy with your groups, don't change a thing. If you want to find out your TRUE accuracy potential, play with draw length, and a few other things.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


What method of determining draw length would give you the best chance of getting closest to your ideal draw length to start with and then give you the ability to tweak it to get it to your optimum length?


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## laserbeam1001 (Jun 30, 2013)

Tagged, good stuff

Sent from my ONEPLUS A5010 using Tapatalk


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## "TheBlindArcher" (Jan 27, 2015)

Tag


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

schwanman said:


> What method of determining draw length would give you the best chance of getting closest to your ideal draw length to start with and then give you the ability to tweak it to get it to your optimum length?


Copying your favorite pro, saying that this pro can do this, and that pro can do that...offers ZERO help to the AVERAGE joe shooter. Shooting results is what matters. Shooting a new personal best score is what matters. Helping a 70 year old competition shooter, boost his x-count in less than 7 days, before the Mid West Open tournament, is all that matters (fella who fired one fletched arrow 21 times in a row, into the same freakin hole at 20 yards, AFTER I helped him).

So, simple. Do a shooting test. If you pass this test, then, the draw length you are working with, is pretty spot on for you. If you cannot pass this test, then, regardless of how "comfy" you THINK your form is, there is room for improvement.










Shoulder high target. GEt the target off the ground, onto a table, or saw horse, or stack of boxes, so you can take a DEAD level shot into the target. Pin a sheet of cardboard to the target. If using a bag target, pin 3 or 4 or 5 layers of cardboard, so you get a dead clean hole. Draw a cross hair with a sharpie pen. I cannot see the cross hair at 10 yards, so I drew a heavy circle with a sharpie pen. Use your 20 yd pin. Aim at the cross hair, aim at the heavy circle and fire a bareshaft arrow (no tape at the back end). PULL out the bareshaft. Label the hole from the bareshaft. So, return to your 10 yd shooting line. Fire a fletched arrow. Compare the fletched arrow point of impact to the bareshaft hole. Both holes should be touching. If the fletched arrow is not touching the bareshaft impact hole, then, change something. Change the draw length. TWeak the bow tuning. Play with your stabilizers until you are blue in the face. Bend you elbow more. Bend your elbow less. Lean backwards more. Lean backwards less. Stand on one foot. Change out your lucky charm. Copy a different pro shooter, who leans back more than Reo. Copy a different pro who bends his elbow MORE than Chance. Copy a different pro who bends his elbow less than Chance. Sooner or later, you will figure out that copying you favorite pro does ZERO for helping YOU shoot better. Mess with your form. Play with draw length. When you have your draw length dialed in, then YOU can stuff a fletched arrow into the same hole as the bareshaft hole. Someday, maybe, you can outshoot my 70 year old student, who fired a SINGLE fletched arrows 21 times into the same freakin hole, at 20 yards. THAT is when you know, you have your draw length dialed in, THAT is when you know, your bow is TUNED...or not tuned.


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## Nocker (Jul 20, 2017)

Wow, this is gold. I am running outside now to try. Thank you Alan!


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## Nocker (Jul 20, 2017)

Just did it. Seems I have work to do...Alan help please..


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## hunter9264 (Mar 7, 2018)

Can't argue, DL can make you or break you. Good topic and well said.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

AfricanBushBoy said:


> Just did it. Seems I have work to do...Alan help please..
> View attachment 6448533


Electrical tape is too wide. Use a sharpie pen and draw a cross hair (vertical and horizontal line). Try 6 yards again, but, this time, take a can of soup and make a round circle, with heavy lines that you can see. Cuz the electrical tape is soooo wide, this will throw you off for horizontal (vertical tape is too wide). Cuz the electrical tape is soooo wide, this will throw you off for vertical (horizontal tape is too wide). So, take a can of soup and trace a circle on some colored paper. Cut out the circle, and use that circle of paper (color it black with a sharpie pen) and try the 6 yard test again.


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## Nocker (Jul 20, 2017)

Will do and post. Many thanks.


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## hunter9264 (Mar 7, 2018)

Can't argue, DL can make you or break you. Good topic and well said. Thanks for the good post Skeeter and also thanks Nuts & Bolts for the input.


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## DartonJager (Sep 9, 2015)

nuts&bolts said:


> SAME SHOOTER.
> 
> String touches da tip of da NOSE in each picture.
> 
> ...


Thanks more than mere words can express. Never thought of having someone take a picture of my posture and form at full draw will do so ASAP. I'm 6'-2" and presently my DL is set at 28.5" down from 28.75".

I am of the firm opinion that there is no rock solid mathematical formula for determining DL, yes the formulas will get you close but a archers physical aspects unique to that archer are again IMHO the final determining factor in achieving correct DL.


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## DartonJager (Sep 9, 2015)

Question;
If an archer is pulling significantly more weight than they can handle, does this make finding your correct DL, MUCH more difficult if not impossible? If yes that is something I think plagues many an archer as I have met around 5-6x as many archers shooting closer to 70lb DW then 60. Im a large quite strong man and my groups and over all accuracy improved significantly when I dropped from a DW 0f 70-71lbs down to 56-58lbs, Yes I could easily pull back 71lbs but would fatigue quickly and my accuracy would suffer. At 58lbs I can comfortably shoot as long as I wish.

Just my opinion, but am wondering if correct.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

DartonJager said:


> Question;
> If an archer is pulling significantly more weight than they can handle, does this make finding your correct DL, MUCH more difficult if not impossible? If yes that is something I think plagues many an archer as I have met around 5-6x as many archers shooting closer to 70lb DW then 60. Im a large quite strong man and my groups and over all accuracy improved significantly when I dropped from a DW 0f 70-71lbs down to 56-58lbs, Yes I could easily pull back 71lbs but would fatigue quickly and my accuracy would suffer. At 58lbs I can comfortably shoot as long as I wish.
> 
> Just my opinion, but am wondering if correct.


When over-bowed, people do all kinds of crazy things to heave back to full draw. Drop the draw weight, and watch your results. If results improve at the lower draw weight, then, the lower draw weight change was a good thing. RESULTS based tuning.


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## Thwackk89 (Jul 20, 2016)

Commented on wrong thread.


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