# Risk of buying used bows!



## Viper1 (Aug 21, 2003)

doug -









Brand new $800 custom LB (4 days old).
Dry glue joint, most likely explanation. 
It happens. 
Only questions would be how many total shots went through it and did the core failure initiate the delam or did the delam cause the core failure. (I'd bet on the former.)

OTOH, I've bought a number of used limbs/bows (eBay mostly), and still haven't had a problem I couldn't fix. 

Viper1 out.


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## jmorgan41480 (Jun 8, 2012)

you would think that even if it was exposed to some high heat the limb would have failed before shot #2000?
I think a&h should cover that or at least split the cost with you. good bit of customer service for them
either way - that's a bummer


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## 4nolz (Aug 17, 2011)

Interesting it broke at limbsaver


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## dougedwards (Sep 5, 2010)

It doesn't look like A&H will do much at this point. They have offered to knock $100 off of a new set of limbs which would reduce the cost to $650 plus shipping. But I did ship the limbs to them for inspection because I am inclined to believe that it was the core that gave out....not the glue. Either way the limb failed in a way that it should not have. Very shocking!

Doug


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## Bill 2311 (Jun 24, 2005)

Bow limbs do fail. I too suspect it was just an issue with the gluing process or components.
Now is the chance got A&H to either gain or lose new customers based upon their response. $650 for a set of limbs is crazy.


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## Arron (Nov 18, 2012)

With you shipping the limbs to them for further inspection maybe they will find something in the manufacturing process that caused the problem and offer a more equitable solution to you. Good customer service goes a long way in retaining a previous customer and a potential new customer.


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## Bill 2311 (Jun 24, 2005)

Making my Blackmax limbs looking better and better.


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## MrSinister (Jan 23, 2003)

same thread seems to have vanished over on stickbow imagine that???


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## dougedwards (Sep 5, 2010)

Bill 2311 said:


> Making my Blackmax limbs looking better and better.


Yep. I have been thinking about going to an ILF version lately anyway. At least with that system you have a choice of replacement limbs. Now I am stuck between another $750 limb investment or just sum it all up as a learning experience and selling the riser for what I can get for it. The latter is looking better at this point. 

Doug


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## MrSinister (Jan 23, 2003)

Bill 2311 said:


> Making my Blackmax limbs looking better and better.


And if they did go on you you could afford to buy another set....


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## GBUSA (Jun 6, 2013)

If you really love the riser and A&H doesn't find fault in the manufacturing process, and thus won't step up on replacement. 
Is their any way to have another bowyer build you a more reasonably priced set of limbs? Or could you convert another set of bolt ons to work with that riser?
Just wondering if any of that is a feasible option.


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## Easykeeper (Jan 2, 2003)

That's definitely a shame! I hate to see a beautiful bow like that let go, but it can happen even to the best of them.

How old is the bow? Unfortunately limbs can break, even on a new bow the warrantee on the limbs has a time limit. The bowyer I'm most familiar with offers lifetime warrantee on the riser but limits the limb warrantee to three years. Another favorite bowyer has a one year full warrantee and two year pro-rated warrantee on _both_ limbs and riser.

Each company is different, most only warrantee to the original owner. According to the owners manual from the A&H website:

"_*Bow Warranty

A&H Archery, LLC bows are guaranteed to be free from defects in material and workmanship for 3 years from the date of 
purchase. This is a limited warranty that extends to the original owner and is not transferable. 
Upon examination, defective bows will be repaired or replaced at the discretion of A&H. Replacement during the second year 
will be at 25% of the current retail price. During the third year your bow will be covered at 50% of current retail price.*_" 

(http://www.acsbows.com/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderfiles/acsbowmanual.pdf)

In my opinion it is unreasonable to _expect_ a bowyer to honor a warrantee outside the stated limits. They may choose to do so after an examination of the bow but it's at their discretion. Unfortunately that's an issue with buying used bows, when you buy one brand new you pay a lot more but you do get a warrantee. I've been lucky on the used bows I've bought but buy enough and crap will happen eventually.


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## dougedwards (Sep 5, 2010)

I have a suspicion that those carbon limbs with foam cores are more prone to failure than woand fiberglass limbs. I am sure that there is no reliable statistics on such but bows with wood or bamboo cores seem to have a very small failure rate.

Doug


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## martha j (May 11, 2009)

i'm with Doug on this.


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## LongStick64 (Aug 29, 2009)

Then again I bought a used 1964 Bear Grizzly and it still kicking, there is a risk in buying any bow.


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## 4nolz (Aug 17, 2011)

You won't find many carbon/foam limbs being shot still in 30 years IMO.


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## VA. Bowbender (Mar 31, 2006)

4nolz said:


> You won't find many carbon/foam limbs being shot still in 30 years IMO.


You might be right. 
Out of my 25 +- recurves I've only bought 2 brand new bows. One is a Pittsley Predator and the other is a 2002 Fred Bear Custom Takedown. I never have had a limb failure in 55 years.


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## DAVID S. (Sep 14, 2006)

Easykeeper said:


> That's definitely a shame! I hate to see a beautiful bow like that let go, but it can happen even to the best of them.
> 
> How old is the bow? Unfortunately limbs can break, even on a new bow the warrantee on the limbs has a time limit. The bowyer I'm most familiar with offers lifetime warrantee on the riser but limits the limb warrantee to three years. Another favorite bowyer has a one year full warrantee and two year pro-rated warrantee on _both_ limbs and riser.
> 
> ...


Yep.


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## voodoofire1 (Jan 24, 2006)

Dang!!!..........Some things you just can't unsee...........Had a set given to me by Bowmania(Thanks Todd), but they are from O.L.'s hands, had to build a riser for them and they shoot real nice too, hope they don't end up like those.....Bowmania's other set did......crap, hope i can shoot it now without wincing ;(


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## secretagentmann (Jul 6, 2012)

hate that Doug. when it comes to good to people here on AT you're definitely one of the best. i've traded a bow or two with you.
i hope this company could see this thread and know they would gain a few potential customers if they treat you right. hope they do the right thing, you deserve it buddy.


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## Bender (Dec 6, 2006)

I think Easy covered it.


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## dougedwards (Sep 5, 2010)

I am not saying that A&H or any other bow company is under any obligation to respond to my dilemma. My experience of dealing with bow manufacturer warranties has been outstanding to this point but all with compound bows. One company sent me a new set of limbs after I admitted to dry firing the bow and was the third owner. I paid for shipping. Another company traded me a set of cams when I bought a used bow that had a draw length that was just a tad too short.

So, if A&H decides not to offer me any measure of grace in this situation I still have been treated extremely well overall when it comes to dealing with used bow issues from the bow companies.

Doug


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## rattus58 (Jul 9, 2007)

dougedwards said:


> Bought a 66" A*H longbow [email protected] longbow from the classifieds a couple of months ago and have probably put in excess of 2,000 shots through it. A wonderfully shooting bow! Last Thursday I was shooting at my backyard shooting range and after shooting for an hour this happened while at full draw.
> 
> 
> After a viewing of the pictures A&H has taken a position that the bow MUST have been exposed to some high heat for the bow to delaminate at the glue line. I know for certain that it has not been exposed to heat in excess of 90 degrees temperature and humidity of Virginia as I opt to shoot in the heat of the day sometimes. Other than that, the bow is kept in an air conditioned environment. New limbs for this bow cost $750 which is more than I paid for this used bow.
> ...


In all due respect... and I'm not forgiving A&H here... Martin went to great length to make me happy ultimately trading me a take down recurve with two sets of limbs to my work with them... but that aside... bows fail. Some sooner than others and some more pathetically than others that you can tell are quality control issues. Before giving in, you might try to negotiate with these folks and see what they can come up with for you. Pretty spectacular I admit... at least you didn't get racooned as I did with a catastrophic failure/break.


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## deadeye (Aug 22, 2002)

What your draw length ?
What was your g.p.p. ?


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## BarneySlayer (Feb 28, 2009)

deadeye said:


> What your draw length ?
> What was your g.p.p. ?


This is a relevant question, one I am surprised A&H didn't bring up. I've seen many people use arrow too light simply because they didn't know any better. They figured that if the labeled spine was adequate, it should be fine. 

Don't know where A&H falls into, but an arrow that falls into acceptable range for an Olympic style recurve limb might be disastrous, quickly or over time, for another, more 'classic' bow design




ic


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## GEREP (May 6, 2003)

*"Risk of buying used bows!"*

Yep, you bought used, at a discounted price, with no warranty. The "risk" didn't pay off for you this time. 

This isn't a matter of A&H wanting to keep a customer happy or not. You aren't a customer of A&H, you are a customer of the person you bought the bow from. 

KPC


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## Sanford (Jan 26, 2009)

Doug, sorry to hear and see that!!!! Wow!!! Not too good of an advert pic for Limbsavers, I think


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## dougedwards (Sep 5, 2010)

Draw length and arrow weight were ok according to A&H at 29.5" and 480 gpp. Yes I know that any material can give way and that A&H is under no obligation. Since posting this several others have contacted me who have had the same experience and that I can expect A&H to offer me $100 off of the $750 replacement limbs. So be it. They are under no obligation to me......or me to them.

Doug


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## Aronnax (Nov 7, 2013)

4nolz said:


> Interesting it broke at limbsaver


irony


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## 4nolz (Aug 17, 2011)

I wonder if it "focuses" the vibrations to that area?


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## Jim Casto Jr (Aug 20, 2002)

End of the fadeout. I'd "guess" that's where most failures take place. I've had three let go there.


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## centershot (Sep 13, 2002)

I'd bet that about any custom bowyer could build you a set of limbs that would work on that riser. Probably for a lot less than $750.


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## dougedwards (Sep 5, 2010)

I was wondering why someone hasn't begun to construct limbs to fit any particular riser. You would think that there would definitely be a market for it. Something I would surely be interested in but I thought that maybe some patents were standing in the way.

Doug


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## badkitty (Oct 13, 2012)

This is why I like ILF. Some manufacturers make great risers and others make great limbs. With ILF, you can mix and match. Also if either your riser or limbs fail you are not locked in to a specific vendor for replacement.

Sorry about your bow but am glad you did not get hurt. Unfortunately bows do fail.


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## 4nolz (Aug 17, 2011)

dougedwards said:


> I was wondering why someone hasn't begun to construct limbs to fit any particular riser. You would think that there would definitely be a market for it. Something I would surely be interested in but I thought that maybe some patents were standing in the way.
> 
> Doug


Doug-if you pulled that top index pin isnt that basically a Binghams attachment system?


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## centershot (Sep 13, 2002)

dougedwards said:


> I was wondering why someone hasn't begun to construct limbs to fit any particular riser. You would think that there would definitely be a market for it. Something I would surely be interested in but I thought that maybe some patents were standing in the way.
> 
> Doug


Sounds a lot like ILF......


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## dougedwards (Sep 5, 2010)

centershot said:


> Sounds a lot like ILF......


ILF is looking pretty good to me right now. Since posting this topic on this and another forum I have received messages from four other archers who have had their A&H limbs blow up on them. They were absolutely the fastest limbs that I have experienced but were very long and thin. I also suspect that carbon in the limbs doesn't help with the strength of the limb but I could be wrong on that. Anyway, my next set of limbs will be a choice of bamboo and wood. That is, if it is possible to find an experienced bowyer to make a set of limbs to match my riser. Or..... I could start all over and go the ILF route. It's just that this riser just fit my hand perfectly. 

Doug


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## kegan (Aug 28, 2006)

Fitting a bolt and pin limb to a bolt and pin riser requires knowing the limb pad angles and building accordingly. Some risers and some limbs just will not work with each other the way you want them to. With ILF, though the geometry changes builders know the general range that the riser and limbs will be, and though poundage may change some you can still get very close to the expected performance. If interchangeability is the goal, ILF is by far the answer.


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## George D. Stout (May 11, 2005)

Crap happens and there isn't always someone to bail you out. It's a used bow and more than two people owned it and shot it for thousands of arrows. I'm not sure why you would think the bowyer owes you something. They are not a giant corporation who can write-off a thousand bucks like it is nothing. If it were a $60.00 bow, you probably wouldn't be making much ado about it, but a bow is a bow, price notwithstanding.

We only show the one that broke. Sure, there is a chance in anything you do, but most used bows don't break and out last the archer. I have bought hundreds of bows over the years, and most of them used. I have only broken two in that time. That's pretty good. You want warranty, you buy new...or one near new with a transferable warranty. It's a little disingenuous to expect new limbs or free repair on a bow that used.


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## GBUSA (Jun 6, 2013)

George D. Stout said:


> Crap happens and there isn't always someone to bail you out. It's a used bow and more than two people owned it and shot it for thousands of arrows. I'm not sure why you would think the bowyer owes you something. They are not a giant corporation who can write-off a thousand bucks like it is nothing. If it were a $60.00 bow, you probably wouldn't be making much ado about it, but a bow is a bow, price notwithstanding.
> 
> We only show the one that broke. Sure, there is a chance in anything you do, but most used bows don't break and out last the archer. I have bought hundreds of bows over the years, and most of them used. I have only broken two in that time. That's pretty good. You want warranty, you buy new...or one near new with a transferable warranty. It's a little disingenuous to expect new limbs or free repair on a bow that used.


I believe the OP said something like, they (A&H) are under no obligation to me and I am under none to them.
Not once that I've seen has the OP asked for a new set of limbs, or a free repair from the manufacturer.
I believe he was just asking what folks thought might have been the cause of the failure, while investigating all of his options for a les expensive limb replacement option and, or possible sale of the riser.


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## 4nolz (Aug 17, 2011)

bolts and pins are stupidly simple and have been used for many years by bowyers-duplicating a set of limbs is as simple as having your hands on the riser for fitting-its not like warfing a compound riser of various handle deflex and pad angles to ILF.

OL Adcock started out with Binghams takedowns-I had one-it looks like his design (now A&H's) simply adds an index pin above the bolt.


Doug is one of the good guys in the buy/sell bow market-I havent seen a single word where he is asking for anything free or warranty just opinions on the cause.


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## 4nolz (Aug 17, 2011)

Doug-would you mind posting a picture of the riser butt showing the connection with a tape measure beside it?


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## centershot (Sep 13, 2002)

kegan said:


> Fitting a bolt and pin limb to a bolt and pin riser requires knowing the limb pad angles and building accordingly. Some risers and some limbs just will not work with each other the way you want them to. With ILF, though the geometry changes builders know the general range that the riser and limbs will be, and though poundage may change some you can still get very close to the expected performance. If interchangeability is the goal, ILF is by far the answer.


He could send the 'good' limb to the boyer and shorten the process quite a bit.


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## Fury90flier (Jun 27, 2012)

dougedwards said:


> ILF is looking pretty good to me right now. Since posting this topic on this and another forum I have received messages from four other archers who have had their A&H limbs blow up on them. They were absolutely the fastest limbs that I have experienced but were very long and thin. I also suspect that carbon in the limbs doesn't help with the strength of the limb but I could be wrong on that. Anyway, my next set of limbs will be a choice of bamboo and wood. That is, if it is possible to find an experienced bowyer to make a set of limbs to match my riser. Or..... I could start all over and go the ILF route. It's just that this riser just fit my hand perfectly.
> 
> Doug


if you like the riser that much, just get another bowyer to make a set for you. You may have to make several calls but I'm sure you can find someone...maybe someone here--who's the guy that helps the new bow builders here? Check the trad section, someone can get you pointed in the right direction.


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## dougedwards (Sep 5, 2010)

There is no need for me to respond to those who have not read my posts here as my intent is clearly altruistic and academic. Even though the experience of a limb exploding at full draw is frightful, at this point I am just looking for viable options. Purchasing new limbs from A&H is off the list. Here are a few up close pictures of the pins and bolt holes on the riser. Not sure how much this helps as I am not sure if there is anything out there that matches.


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## 4nolz (Aug 17, 2011)

that could be done Doug-maybe not $700 limbs but functional limbs I bet-I bet Kirk Lavender of Bigfoot Bows could do it easy (I'm not sure but I bet he would).I'm tempted to buy the riser off you but I have no use for a longbow.

try Brandon Stahls site-alot of bowyers hang out there-Rose Oak Creations.


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## 4nolz (Aug 17, 2011)

http://tradarchers.com/forum/index.php


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## dougedwards (Sep 5, 2010)

I posted this subject over on the Leatherwall and for some reason Brandon Stahls accused me of trying to "_get something for nothing_" . JD Berry did likewise. I guess you best not post pics of your busted limb on archery sites or all the bowyers will come out of the woodwork making accusations. I am reluctant to post anything over on Brandon's forum. 

From the very beginning I have posted that I had no warranty rights and A&H did offer to give me $100 off of a new set of limbs. They were under no obligation to offer anything. They are a good company that builds a superior product. But because others have contacted me concerning their own experience with limb separation of the A&H ACS limbs I have decided not to spend the money on another set. I have two kids in college and it wouldn't not be prudent of me to invest another $650 on limbs that may or may not hold up. 

John Havard, who owns the patent for the ACS limbs makes a comparison between the A&H and Dryad ACS limbs.

_*As writer and owner of the ACS patent you might expect that I've tested them side by side and I have. I've said many times the difference is like comparing a light, nimble, and tricky Ferrari (A&H) to a blown, hammering, and sturdy Corvette (Dryad).

I designed them both and like them both very much. Performance-wise there's essentially zero difference. There are lots of differences in the two designs but they both go from zero to sixty in 3.8 seconds (to stretch the race car analogy a bit farther).
*_

_Light, nimble and tricky _describing the A&H as opposed to _blown, hammering and sturdy _describing the Dryad version of ACS limbs. That statement is somewhat revealing in my estimation. The Dryad limbs appear to be noticeably wider and thicker. I would like to see a history of the durability of each style of ACS limb sets. 

These inquiries are not meant to be accusatory in the least. Those A&H limbs were the very best that I have shot and I have owned some of the very top of the line bows out there. But if this is truly "archers helping archers" and not archers helping bowyers then it seems to me that this is a good place to pose such questions.


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## 4nolz (Aug 17, 2011)

True.Dryad surfaces quickly wherever there is $$ to be made-good business model I guess but way way overpriced IMO.Try contacting Kirk privately he's a hobbyist really and probably would help the rest are cya'sses.


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## dougedwards (Sep 5, 2010)

Wanted to say that I had contacted A&H via email on Thursday Sept 4th since my USPS tracking showed that they had received the limbs for inspection on Sept 2nd. No response. I sent them a second email with an inquiry on Sept 7th and today Sept 8th I got a return email that said that they had in fact inspected the limbs and concluded that they must have been exposed to excessive heat before I bought them in June because 46# limbs just don't let go in that fashion. 

A&H also offered me a 15% discount on a set of $750 replacement limbs but I am not going that route. A&H is a good company that makes a superior product but I am suspect of the construction of those very thin limbs. Fast?....yes but three other archers have sent me messages saying that they too had the same experience and one of them knew three others who had A&H limbs fail on them. Although I know that any limb can come apart after thousands of shots I think I am learning that speed, in and of itself, does not necessarily increase the practical value of a set of limbs. Those A&H limbs were also quiet but I am leaning towards durability now.

Doug


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## 4nolz (Aug 17, 2011)

pushing the envelope with materials and design probably will prove to be "un"economical for these custom bowyers in terms of longevity and percieved reliability.The POA 'walk the talk" resulted in designs that were percieved to be superior to the tried and true companies but I wonder how many wtt bows are still alive.


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## Valachi (Jul 17, 2014)

*I posted this subject over on the Leatherwall and for some reason Brandon Stahls accused me of trying to "get something for nothing" . JD Berry did likewise. I guess you best not post pics of your busted limb on archery sites or all the bowyers will come out of the woodwork making accusations. I am reluctant to post anything over on Brandon's forum.* 


I wondered about Brandon Stahls motives for some time. He seems to be self promoting his website but does not sponsor any other website. Heard about one of his busted bows on Leatherwall by a guy named M.R. who says he is Rich Lopez.


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## LongStick64 (Aug 29, 2009)

Sir respectfully there isn't a bow made by any bowyer that did not experience a failure. It is not unheard of for a bow to break. I have ha business dealings with Mr Stahl, and he made a repair to one of his bows for me without charging me a penny, I'd say that is excellent customer service. You might of had a better result with A&H if you dealt with them privately instead of trashing them here or anywhere else. I had a similar experience on a used bow, I was pleased that they would offer a bow to me at a great reduction in price. It's all in how you handle yourself.


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## 4nolz (Aug 17, 2011)

Read the whole thread.He never trashed A&H.


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## voodoofire1 (Jan 24, 2006)

"Sir respectfully there isn't a bow made by any bowyer that did not experience a failure"

Oh really now, well Longstick64, you just keep telling yourself that and it will be your own little secret.


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## LongStick64 (Aug 29, 2009)

Yeah VooDoo I will, I'm taliking about bowyers that make more than 10 a year, where do you fall under. Anyone that I talked to, Black Widow, Bob Lee, Martin, Zipper, Morrison, Dryad, Sky, Border have all had bows for whaterver reason fail.....Do you deny that, go ask them for yourself


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## voodoofire1 (Jan 24, 2006)

I don't have to ask longstick, I have repaired quite a few bows that were built by others, just never had to repair or replace any of mine, and up until my accident quite a few more than 10 a year left my shop, and i stand behind each one for life...but I don't stand behind stupidity like I saw this morning, a customer took what looks like an angle grinder to the grip and shelf of one of my risers and ruined it, didn't notice it till I shot it and the arrow cut my hand, thing is I would have reworked the grip for nothing.... Some people shouldn't be allowed to handle tools.....


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## LongStick64 (Aug 29, 2009)

Well then you are an exception, and I mean that in a good way. I had gone through a quire a few bows, over 70 and I have had bows fail. I won't trash them here but it does happen. Then again my 1964 Bear Grizzly is still going strong.


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## MM213 (May 29, 2014)

It's ironic that it failed directly at the point of the Limbsaver. 

If it was a heat issue, you may see the beginings of delamination on the other limb as well. Hope it all works out for you.


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## dougedwards (Sep 5, 2010)

Things are working out for me. I contacted A&H and thanked them for giving me consideration even though I had no warranty rights and they wished me well. There has been no bashing of that company and they have been very courteous to me. I post pictures of a dellaminated limb because this is archers helping archers.......not archers helping bowyers. 

As soon as I sell a bow and have the money to purchase new limbs I am going to begin contacting other bowyers to see if they can make me a good set of limbs that might mate up to my A&H riser. I took a risk on a high dollar longbow and I paid the price for taking that risk. And I learned from it. I hope that others might have learned from my experience too which was the whole purpose of my posting of this subject in the first place. 

Doug


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## Matt_Potter (Apr 13, 2010)

Doug 

Talk to Mike at dryad his ACS limbs are second to none and I'm pretty sure he has made a set for a A&H riser. 

Matt


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## 4nolz (Aug 17, 2011)

Dryad is just as expensive as A&H I think


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## Ballgame (Jan 23, 2007)

First off, sorry for your misfortune! 

Just curious, Did A&H make any mention or comment about the limb breaking at the exact same spot as where your limbsaver was located? 

Were other 3 ACS guys with blown limbs using Limbsavers as well? 

I ask this because I had a bowyer tell me that using limbsavers on his bows void the warranty.

The thinking is that if you add enough mass to the limb and in the wrong location you will create an off-balance and eventually weaken one of the limbs due to it working harder than the other. ie 1 limb will close faster than the other etc. 

I'm trying to see if this bowyers theory is true, as I find it very interesting that your limb broke exactly where the Limbsaver was located. 

I'd think that the ACS design is actually a lot more vulnerable to this happening when using the limbsavers due to their limbs being so light, thin, and curved. 
ie. the limbsaver adds more mass percentage wise to an ACS limb than that of other "heavier" bows.


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## reddogge (Jul 21, 2009)

Valachi said:


> *I posted this subject over on the Leatherwall and for some reason Brandon Stahls accused me of trying to "get something for nothing" . JD Berry did likewise. I guess you best not post pics of your busted limb on archery sites or all the bowyers will come out of the woodwork making accusations. I am reluctant to post anything over on Brandon's forum.*
> 
> 
> I wondered about Brandon Stahls motives for some time. He seems to be self promoting his website but does not sponsor any other website. Heard about one of his busted bows on Leatherwall by a guy named M.R. who says he is Rich Lopez.


That is true. I've seen the bow but Brandon Stahl replaced it free of charge and I've seen the replacement. Good service to me.


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## reddogge (Jul 21, 2009)

LongStick64 said:


> Well then you are an exception, and I mean that in a good way. I had gone through a quire a few bows, over 70 and I have had bows fail. I won't trash them here but it does happen. Then again my 1964 Bear Grizzly is still going strong.


Bears aren't infallible either. I had one delaminate ('65 Kodiak) and one limb fold in half ('56 Kodiak). Both used bows so no telling how they had been stored over the years.


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## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

wow....my sympathies Doug...I also have sympathy for A&H as I/m beginning to think they probably don't have much of a finger on the pulse of these forums cause if they did?...they'd know they were dealing with a well known, very active stand-up kind of guy....so that puts them in a precarious positiont as well...bad scene all the way around the way I see it and am glad I'm not unfortunate enough to be on either side of that particular fence...best wishes to you both.

That said?...If I were CEO of A&H.....under the circumstances?...I certainly wouldn't offer to send you a replacement set for free...but I would think it far less than prudent to not offer you replacement at cost....time and materials...but I would draw my line in the sand there feeling I've gone above and beyond with regards too CS annnnnd?....."Public Relations" (as it affects my company) with expectations of a "Win/Win" scenario playing out...then again?...that crap is easy to talk but I'm not CEO of A&H.

That said?....I'm off the opinion that "Performance Always Comes At A Price"...and when the designers of these ultra-high performance bows push the envelope?...limitations of materials are often times found....sometimes more often than not....and when I think about it?...it's beyond amazing what some of these high performance bowyers produce...cause think about it...there's nothing in this world that won't break if you bend it back and forth enough times...especially when it ends off with induced shock time after time after time...because under those conditions?...even rubber will eventually degrade and break.

Here's what I would do if no amicable resolve could be reached....

Take the riser to some major shoots....hold it up against other risers that most closely match your risers limb pad angles.....then ask that company to make you a set of "Unfinished Blanks"....spec'ed in your comfort zone (length/poundage wise) with lams and tips that match your riser materials....(hopefully from someone who doesn't think their limbs are worth their weight in cocaine LOL!)....then take it all to machine shop and have pin bushings and flanged bolt bushings turned and light press fit into your new limbs...then shape, finish, string and tune accordingly.

That's what I would do...good luck and L8R, Bill. :cool2:


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## dougedwards (Sep 5, 2010)

Jinks.......as I have said, A&H did not owe me anything but they did offer to knock 15% off their $750 price tag for a new set of limbs. That still put a new set at over $650 with shipping costs. The very largest problem that I have encountered with their limbs is the fact that no less than seven others have told me that they have had very similar experiences with their limbs including the guy who bought my A&H riser recently. I told him that he was number 7 of archers who have told me that their A&H limbs had given out on them. This was all after I posted pictures of the busted limbs. 

Yes, they were the very fastest limbs that I have shot but as you have said......that performance must come at a risk. I was not willing to fork out $650 for limbs that I had a lack of confidence in. Tough break for me? Yep but I learned a little bit from the whole experience. Do a little research before you spend $650 on a used bow. 

Doug


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## Ballgame (Jan 23, 2007)

Did they have limbsavers on their limbs also? 



dougedwards said:


> Jinks.......as I have said, A&H did not owe me anything but they did offer to knock 15% off their $750 price tag for a new set of limbs. That still put a new set at over $650 with shipping costs. The very largest problem that I have encountered with their limbs is the fact that no less than seven others have told me that they have had very similar experiences with their limbs including the guy who bought my A&H riser recently. I told him that he was number 7 of archers who have told me that their A&H limbs had given out on them. This was all after I posted pictures of the busted limbs.
> 
> Yes, they were the very fastest limbs that I have shot but as you have said......that performance must come at a risk. I was not willing to fork out $650 for limbs that I had a lack of confidence in. Tough break for me? Yep but I learned a little bit from the whole experience. Do a little research before you spend $650 on a used bow.
> 
> Doug


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## dougedwards (Sep 5, 2010)

Ballgame said:


> Did they have limbsavers on their limbs also?


I did not ask but it is a good question. I surely doubt that they all did or if the Limbsavers had anything to do with it. They had been on my set of limbs for years. A&H thought that the Limbsavers werr not the problem but that heat was the problem.

The guy who bought my riser had a pair of A&H ACS limbs break on him while he was hunting in Africa. High performance limbs for sure but too fragile IMHO.

Doug


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