# So about this Nose Touching the String Thing...



## Tallybowman

subscribed


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## markdenis

My question would be....why can't you keep your head straight and still touch your nose?. I do as long as my peep height is right.


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## dhmc03

markdenis said:


> My question would be....why can't you keep your head straight and still touch your nose?. I do as long as my peep height is right.


String angle. I don't care where the peep is my smeller won't hit the string without tipping my head forward. not a problem with a 40" a2a rig but with short a2a parallel limb bows it's quite different.

I have considered increasing my DL and offsetting this by shortening D loop. This would put the string farther back (thus on nose) but my arm total distance from bow handle to release hook would be the same... Not sure I have enough room on my d loop though.... Plus that just seems like I am gaming it - shooting text book DL


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## brdz71

Can you post a pic of you at full draw. Im sure that would help


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## Bees

dhmc03 said:


> Let me start by saying I am not trying to start an argument. Just learn more.
> 
> *HISTORY*
> At the risk of sounding self absorbed (not my intent), I shot in college (~10 years ago). The team was good. There were US Olympic shooters on our team... and coaches. I only say this for context.
> 
> Just so know one thinks I am "tooting my own horn" - I was NOT good. Not sure why they even let me shoot with them.
> 
> But the point is everyone had their nose on the string.
> 
> *TODAY*
> Only recently picked up a bow again since those days. With shorter A2A bows nose on string requires me to put head down a fair amount.
> 
> I have read all the "hows my form" posts and have read the responses "your DL is too long because you think you are supposed to touch nose to string."
> 
> I agree 100% you have to get DL right. ASSUMING it is, what about putting head down to get nose to string? I would think you could be more consistent that way (i.e. 3 anchors: hand to jaw, string to corner mouth, string to nose) than floating with only 2 anchors.
> 
> I've been trying to shoot with my head straight and my nose NOT touching (as a result). My windage is fine. But I am throwing high sometimes.... low sometimes... seems like a stability issue trying to keep peep centered over sight housing without my nose telling me where to be.
> 
> OK... LET ME HAVE IT...


 your comparing Compounds( short ones ) to Olympic recurve bows ( long ones)

with my Olympic 66 inches long recurve shooting fingers and no peep sight on the string.
I come to full draw my string touches my lips and the string touches my nose right in the middle of it.
I have one eye on one side of the string and the other eye on the other side of the string. 
I'm not looking through the string at all.
I anchor under my chin with 3 fingers on the string under the arrow. 

compound bow 38 inches long: shooting release aid, and a Peep sight on the string.
now when I anchor, I want to look thru the string that's why I put the peep sight in the string
this makes it impossible for me to put the bow where I put my recurve, I have to hold the bow more to my right.
Next the release aid makes it impossible for me to anchor under my chin like I do on my recurve.
I have to bend my head a bit to get my eye in position to look thru the peep. different than my recurve.
if I want to touch my nose to the sting I have to bend my head some more. 
It is much easier for me to not bend my head to touch the nose, and just keep the peep to sight housing alignment 
Yes you can have high/low misses if you don't keep your head and bow quiet during your routine. 
If you want to touch your nose to the string go ahead, see if it helps, it doesn't help me so I don't..


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## dhmc03

Bees said:


> your comparing Compounds( short ones ) to Olympic recurve bows ( long ones)..


I should have been more specific. There is a compound class and an Olympic recurve class in college archery. I shot compound then too.

Otherwise your point would be spot on. Thanks for your thoughts. Keep em coming


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## aread

You are running into the problem with the recent popularity of short bows. 

Optimal form begins with the head erect and balanced over the body's center of gravity. Why? Because this is where our balance is most stable. 

Then we want a DL that keeps the string off of our face. Why? Because variations in the tension of face muscles will change point of impact of the arrow. 

Then we want the combination of string angle and DL to be such that we can touch the string with our nose. Why? Because it give an additional point of reference that makes head alignment more easily repeatable.

Then we want a D-loop length that allows us to align the force of pull with the arrow and the target. Why? Because pulling left or right will tend to pull the arrow off target. 

String off the face, head erect, an additional point of reference and alignment are good things. But if the bow is too short for the archer, you can't have all four. Which one or two do you give up to shoot a short bow? Why give up any? Why not shoot a bow that actually fits you?

Short bows can be shot accurately. Some archers are world class with them. But why not give yourself every advantage? 

There are a couple of formulas floating around that provide the ATA and brace height that will fit an archer the best. They generally arrive at a bow with a string angle close to 45 degrees with the draw length set so the nock directly below the archers eye at full draw. There is lots of variation to this since we are all, at least a little different. But the variation among top shooters is generally quite small.

JMHO,
Allen


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## ron w

in all my years of shooting , which dates back to '74, my string has touched my nose. I learned that way from a PSE pro, by the name of Joe Cleminek, who at the time was Terry Raggsdale's main competition. 
the new short bows aren't designed to fit our anatomy, they're designed to respond to the preference for short bows in trees and blinds and speed from more forward nock thrust from the high included string angles. they sell that way, the manufacturers couldn't care less if they fit us, as long as we buy their bows and as long as there's a group of pros that do well with them, it will remain that we, because we have to have what the pros are using. it doesn't matter that there's only a couple dozen guys in the entire population of archery that can actually shoot them well, we want them, so they'll continue building bows not designed for the human anatomy.


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## Moebow

Mixing and matching IMO. The string on the nose is a good reference IF there is no wall, and the string angle "fits" the anatomy of the shooter. It becomes a draw length indication along with the string on the chin and facial references.

BUT when you have a wall, a peep in the string AND your facial references, why would you want to MOVE your head forward for the extreme string angle found on short ATA bows?? The compound set up simply takes the NEED for the string/nose out of the equation. Upsetting your posture just to put your string on the nose make little sense!!

Arne


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## dhmc03

in both these pics I am setting a timer on camera and running over to take pic... its ridiculously hard actually and I never felt settled with my form...

Nevertheless what about DL?

Will try to get someone to snap a pic for me in future.


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## HappyHillbilly

First off - I'm not a pro. I shot 3D tournaments seriously for several years about 18yrs ago. I got back into archery last year when my, then, 14yr old, son took interest in it. My wife & I formed a school/4H shooting club and I'm the archery coach. Last year our archery team placed 2nd in NC 4H Far West Regional & took 3rd in State tournament, our 1st year in existence. Wish I could take the credit but I was blessed with a few archers that were already somewhat experienced. I'm not posting this as a "boast." I'm posting it as background info about me, so you don't just blow off what I have to say. 

Even pro coaches vary on opinions/techniques. From the photos you posted, I think your form looks good. If you look closely at where the string is on your face it appears to me that the string is the same distance away from the corner of your mouth as it is from the tip of your nose. I suggest you try increasing your draw length. Start with just 1/2-inch. I would suggest putting a kisser button on and bringing it into the corner of your mouth. The tip of your nose should then be able to touch the string without having to tilt your head. Though your front arm is stretched out about as straight as it can go, it appears to me that you have room for your back arm to go back more. 

Finding a good anchor point with your release hand, after extending draw length, may be a bit problematic for you but it appears to me that you've got plenty of room to go backwards on the side of your face/head to find a good, solid anchor point. To me, it doesn't look like your bow's A2A is too short for you to be able to achieve touching the tip of your nose to the string while keeping perfect head position like you have now. That is, if you extend draw length. 

I believe it will greatly improve your accuracy/grouping by doing so. I always encourage tip of nose to string whenever the bow's string angle is suitable for it. I personally don't think an archer can have too many anchor points. The more the better.

Please let me know if you try this and whether or not it works out for you.

Best wishes!
HH


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## aread

I respectfully disagree with HappyHillbilly. I think that your bow's DL is good, but your D-loop is a little short. 

If you lengthen the loop a tiny bit, start at 1/2" longer and gradually shorten it. This is is easier than starting short and gradually increasing since you can use the same loop material. Easier to cut it shorter than to stretch it longer. .

This wiill bring youur draw side elbow down a bit. When you have it just right, you will have much better range of motion and much better leverage. This will allow you to more smoothly execute the shot with your back muscles. 

And that will allow you to focus on aiming.

Your bow is set up to fit you better than most I've seen. Make any adjustments in very small increments. No more than one or two twists.

Of course don't go by photos and our advice. Figure out what works the best for you. The bare shaft / fletched shaft test is about the best we have for establishing DL. Are you familiar with this test?

Hope this helps,
Allen


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## HappyHillbilly

aread,
Thanks for being respectful in your differing opinion and not bashing mine. You gained some respect from me. I welcome differing opinions. Thus the beauty of these forums. It gives everyone more than one option to explore. You nailed the bottom line - _"Figure out what works the best for you."_

I did say that I thought his form looked good but I did notice the high draw shoulder, but didn't mention it. I should have. I think your suggestion of lengthening the D-loop is good and should take care of the draw shoulder issue. Would the advice I offered, to lengthen draw length, have the same effect and also give the shooter the possibility of being able to place nose to string like he asked about?

If increasing the draw length a 1/2 inch ends up being a tad too much I think the string could be twisted a few times to shorten it.

Ya'll have a great day & keep sharing this wonderful sport & spirit!
HH


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## aread

HH,
We've been pretty successful in keeping it courteous & respectful here in Coaches Corner.

We welcome differing opinions because each of us sees it differently. And since we are basing opinions from photos, we could easily be wrong.

Thanks for posting here. You seem to be someone who can contribute.

Allen


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## HappyHillbilly

Thanks for the kind words, Allen! I hope I can help. That's ALL that I want to do, is "help." Of course, often times we also learn while helping. I hope I never stop learning. One reason my post count is so low is because I read more than I post. I've not seen much flaming on this forum and there is a lot of great info/input here. That's why this is the ONLY archery forum I view & participate on. I look forward to getting to know everyone better.

Have a great day!
HH
(Mike)


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## a/c guy

I have the same problem touching my nose to the string. I'm just not consistent when it doesn't touch. So what I tried recently is a small kisser button slid up the string so my nose touches it. Seems pretty good so far.


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## dhmc03

Thx for everyone's thoughts.

I do think my DL is maybe 1/4 short.


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## j0em0z

like said before, the biggest problem is going to be with the shorter a2a and string angle. the longer a2a bows meet your point of draw at a wider angle which will bring the string closer to your nose thus making it easier to have a 3 pt anchor. on your shorter a2a bows most of the time you only will have a 2 pt anchor. this is also why some of the shooters that shoot the shorter bows will use a kisser button to enable them to get the 3rd anchor point. it also has a lot to do with the dl (which yours looks pretty good but maybe a little longer d-loop). a shooter with a shorter dl (25"-27" or so) is able to shoot a shorter bow and get the 3rd pt because of the string angle.


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## nuts&bolts

HappyHillbilly said:


> aread,
> Thanks for being respectful in your differing opinion and not bashing mine. You gained some respect from me. I welcome differing opinions. Thus the beauty of these forums. It gives everyone more than one option to explore. You nailed the bottom line - _"Figure out what works the best for you."_
> 
> I did say that I thought his form looked good but I did notice the high draw shoulder, but didn't mention it. I should have. I think your suggestion of lengthening the D-loop is good and should take care of the draw shoulder issue. Would the advice I offered, to lengthen draw length, have the same effect and also give the shooter the possibility of being able to place nose to string like he asked about?
> 
> If increasing the draw length a 1/2 inch ends up being a tad too much I think the string could be twisted a few times to shorten it.
> 
> Ya'll have a great day & keep sharing this wonderful sport & spirit!
> HH


The purpose of the bow DL setting,
versus
the purpose of the d-loop.

Two VERY different things.


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## nuts&bolts

HappyHillbilly said:


> aread,
> Thanks for being respectful in your differing opinion and not bashing mine. You gained some respect from me. I welcome differing opinions. Thus the beauty of these forums. It gives everyone more than one option to explore. You nailed the bottom line - _"Figure out what works the best for you."_
> 
> I did say that I thought his form looked good but I did notice the high draw shoulder, but didn't mention it. I should have. I think your suggestion of lengthening the D-loop is good and should take care of the draw shoulder issue. Would the advice I offered, to lengthen draw length, have the same effect and also give the shooter the possibility of being able to place nose to string like he asked about?
> 
> If increasing the draw length a 1/2 inch ends up being a tad too much I think the string could be twisted a few times to shorten it.
> 
> Ya'll have a great day & keep sharing this wonderful sport & spirit!
> HH


Soooo,
many confuse what I call TOTAL spread distance.

So,
if we measure from the pivot point of the grip,
(contact between the bow hand the the grip...deepest part of the curve)

and the TIP of the release side elbow...

this is what I call the TOTAL SPREAD DISTANCE.


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## nuts&bolts

HappyHillbilly said:


> aread,
> Thanks for being respectful in your differing opinion and not bashing mine. You gained some respect from me. I welcome differing opinions. Thus the beauty of these forums. It gives everyone more than one option to explore. You nailed the bottom line - _"Figure out what works the best for you."_
> 
> I did say that I thought his form looked good but I did notice the high draw shoulder, but didn't mention it. I should have. I think your suggestion of lengthening the D-loop is good and should take care of the draw shoulder issue. Would the advice I offered, to lengthen draw length, have the same effect and also give the shooter the possibility of being able to place nose to string like he asked about?
> 
> If increasing the draw length a 1/2 inch ends up being a tad too much I think the string could be twisted a few times to shorten it.
> 
> Ya'll have a great day & keep sharing this wonderful sport & spirit!
> HH


So,
WHAT makes up the pieces of the puzzle for the TOTAL spread distance?

1) release neck length
2) lots of bow arm elbow bend, medium amount of bow arm elbow bend, small amount of bow arm elbow bend
3) bow hand thumb at the SAME height as top of shoulder...bow hand thumb BELOW top of shoulder...while standing on level ground, taking a level shot
4) high draw side shoulder (angle of collar bone)..level shoulders left and right
5) two shoulders aligned with arrow flight path...two shoulders in an open stance orientation...two shoulders in a closed stance orientation
6) RELEASE elbow ABOVE top of ear height....RELEASE elbow at top of ear height...RELEASE elbow BELOW top of ear height.
7) leaning forwards (upper torso)...vertical upper torso....leaning BACKWARDS (upper torso)

All of these things affect the TOTAL spread distance.


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## nuts&bolts

HappyHillbilly said:


> aread,
> Thanks for being respectful in your differing opinion and not bashing mine. You gained some respect from me. I welcome differing opinions. Thus the beauty of these forums. It gives everyone more than one option to explore. You nailed the bottom line - _"Figure out what works the best for you."_
> 
> I did say that I thought his form looked good but I did notice the high draw shoulder, but didn't mention it. I should have. I think your suggestion of lengthening the D-loop is good and should take care of the draw shoulder issue. Would the advice I offered, to lengthen draw length, have the same effect and also give the shooter the possibility of being able to place nose to string like he asked about?
> 
> If increasing the draw length a 1/2 inch ends up being a tad too much I think the string could be twisted a few times to shorten it.
> 
> Ya'll have a great day & keep sharing this wonderful sport & spirit!
> HH



So,
the draw length setting on the bow controls the position of the peep sight,
and
CONTROLS the position of the end of the arrow tube.

AS the draw length setting on the bow grows LONGER and LONGER,
then,
the end of the arrow tube lands FARTHER and FARTHER back on the head of the shooter.

To maintain line of sight,
the END of the arrow tube,
the intersection of the nock and the black arrow tube

THE END of the arrow tube MUST be in front of the pupil of the eye.

If you compromise LINE of sight,
JUST to get a string to touch da nose....

then,
you compromise accuracy.

ALWAYS look where the end of the black tube
lines up on the shooter's face,
with respect to the forward, edge of the curvature of the shooter's eyeball.

If you have ever shot a rifle,
you ALWAYS have the eyepiece of the scope in FRONT of your eyeball.

You leave ROOM between the FRONT of the eyeball
and the eyepiece of the scope,
to leave room for recoil.

FOR OBVIOUS reasons,
if you "lengthen" the draw length of the rifle
and the scope eyepiece moves BEHIND the front curvature of the eyeball...
it is impossible to sight down the top of the rifle barrel,
if the eyepiece of the SCOPE is behind your eyeball.

SAme applies to an arrow.

If you STRETCH the draw length of a bow,
just another 1/2-inch (which is HUGE)
just to get the string to touch your nose....
and the END of the black tube
ends up BEHIND the front curvature of your eyeball...

then,
if you keep your HEAD vertical,
it is physically impossible to sight down the top of the arrow.

The ONLY way you can see through your peep
is when you TILT your head SIDEWAYS,
cuz your SKULL, the cheek bone structure
is now in the way of seeing through your peep.


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## nuts&bolts

So,
cuz he is using a timer,
this photo is not a fair analysis.

Here goes.

1) shoulders not level
2) bow hand thumb is above bow shoulder, but...this is an artifact of not enough time to settle into full draw, cuz he is rushing for a timer
....which means, the bow shoulder is ARTIFICIALLY LOW and the RELEASE shoulder is ARTIFICIALLY HIGH...so two level shoulders is somewhere in between
3) right heel is lifted, cuz I advise folks to do this, when they have difficulty with standing up straight, even with a door helping out
4) head is artificially pointed NORTH EAST...assuming the arrow has a DUE NORTH flight path

5) therefore, folks will erroneously conclude that the DL is short
....barring range of motion troubles with the Original Poster's neck...(I'm assuming no range of motion issues)
....then, look at the relative positions of the knuckles and the opening to the ear canal, and you will see an UNDER-ROTATED head
....the CENTERLINE of his head is not pointed in the same direction as his collar bones.

6) so, with a more FULL rotation of the head, to his left
...then, the string end of the arrow tube, will line up CLOSER to directly under the corner of the mouth..at this point, the offset is roughly 3/16ths of an inch
...this is a FALSE "red flag"..due to under-rotation of the head/neck


Soooo,
wait for the original poster to get a photographer to take a REAL photo,
instead of a TIMER photo...

and
the posture will change DRAMATICALLY,
with a bit of effort,
and with ZERO changes to the bow.


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## francis

Forgive me if I am confusing the issue, but from reading the above I understand that if the back end of the arrow/string/peep is too far back on you face you may have physical contact with the arrow when trying to tilt your head to see through the peep sight and this affects accuracy.

What about the opposite direction? Having the bow draw set too short/using a longer sloop or release aid etc.., now the back end or arrow/peep is much farther forward from your face that what it needs to be. Does this also result in a loss of accuracy due to some other factor? You have no physical contact pushing the arrow sideways now, so I am assuming this does not affect accuracy as long as you line the peep and front sight up consistently from shot to shot......?


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## HappyHillbilly

So, like I said earlier - _"...often times we also learn while helping. I hope I never stop learning."_

_nuts&bolts_ - Thank you for taking so much time to point out all those things while answering my question. I now see how reading/interpreting shooting form can be different from photos versus real-life action, in person. My fault lies within me assuming that the photos depicted his actual form, even though he said that he never really felt settled into his form due to having to rush to get into position before the camera's timer took the photos. 

I noticed the end of the arrow shaft being in front of his pupil but failed to take into consideration the possible false form you mentioned. That is why I thought he may be able to extend draw length and that's why I asked _aread_ that question in relation to his D-loop suggestion. It was a sincere question, not meant with any sarcasm, whatsoever. 

I think the other participants in this thread have posted viable info as well. Maybe I oughta go back to readin' more & postin' less. Ha! Ha! The last thing I want to do is screw someone up & get them in a frustrating situation. I'm not here for an ego boost or popularity contest.

Ya'll take care & thanks everyone for making this a good thread.
May God bless you all!
HH
(Mike)


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## tonygoz

Tagged for reference.


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## snowshovler

What size is the peep? When I was racing biathlon, too small an aperture caused a lot of issues resulting in more open groups. A larger aperture/peep will allow better alignment for a couple of reasons.

First too close of a fit between the peep and sight ring causes you to over control the sight picture. The movement needed is finer than you can control so we fight to get it centered and never are able. More space between the peep and sight when things are concentric allows the brain to accept the slight out of center so you can focus on letting the pin float on the target and just keep pulling.

If you tip your head the acuity of your vision changes in addition to screwing with your balance. Focus you look onto the edge of your screen and then move only your eyes back to read and feel the strain in the muscles of your eyes. Keep reading and it becomes more difficult.

The larger peep lets in more light so your eye can remain more neutral under changing ambient light and this reduces strain and preserves acuity.

Too narrow of a gap between the peep and sights frame also has a slight magnifying effect and distorts the view. This is the same idea of a pinhole camera focusing the light onto the film.

Forget the slight reduction in speed. I'd rather hit slow than miss fast.

I hope this helps.


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