# Pope & Young Position Statement on crossbows..



## willie (Jul 2, 2003)

*Now what do we call an organization that wants to take legal hunters (some as long as 30 years) out of the woods??*


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## Jim C (Oct 15, 2002)

willie said:


> *Now what do we call an organization that wants to take legal hunters (some as long as 30 years) out of the woods??*


antihunters

my position-hunting in general would be better off if Poop and Dung evaporated. They help PETA with this sort of nonsense


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## Jim C (Oct 15, 2002)

Has anyone ever heard Poop and DUng explain how xbows are a "serious threat" to bowhunting? that would be fun to see

its probably based on the crap that crossbows aren't bows

sort of like their one time position on compounds


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## PMantle (Feb 15, 2004)

willie said:


> *Now what do we call an organization that wants to take legal hunters (some as long as 30 years) out of the woods??*


I have no idea, as that organization has not been identified here. Hunters have not been targeted by P&Y. Only a weapon has, so I'd call them the most important bowhunting organization in the world.


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## thesource (May 19, 2005)

willie said:


> *Now what do we call an organization that wants to take legal hunters (some as long as 30 years) out of the woods??*


That is a clear misrepresentation of P&Y's position.

They never said you shouldn't hunt with a crossbow....they stated that they do not belong in bowseasons. 

Hunters can stay in the woods either in their proper season, or the season they have grown accustomed to....if they learn to use a real bow.

I applaud THE preeminent bowhunting organization for taking the lead on this issue.....

If y'all were real bowhunters there wouldn't even be an issue....lol.


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## willie (Jul 2, 2003)

Lets see Ohio has had crossbows in their archery season close to 30 years.

Arkansas nearly as long.

Wyoming? Forever and ever and ever...

Now your pre-enema organization wants to *ABOLISH* those seasons that the crossbow forefathers fought so hard for.

You do understand what abolish means don't you? Sort of like *BAN*, like the gun grabbers want to do.

Those seasons have been determined by the states's DNRs as the crossbows "proper season, or the season they have grown accustomed to".

These hunters know of no other season that they hunt with a crossbow. This is THEIR season too. Now you and the P & Y want to take that away from them.

Your pre-enema organization thinks they know more than the individual state's DNRs.. Well I hate to break it to you but they don't.

All they know is MINE, MINE, MINE..

This statement will backfire in their face.

I'm glad that they overstepped as it will come back to haunt them..

Yep, anti-hunting...


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## thesource (May 19, 2005)

willie said:


> *ABOLISH* those seasons that the crossbow forefathers fought so hard for....


HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

OMG, that is the funniest ever!

You want us to acknowledge some sort of crossbow forefathers (IS there such a thing?) while you TROMP all over the forefathers of bowhunting.

You have such a wit!

Listen .... its about time we recognize these few seasons for what they are - a travesty, a tragic mistake. We ALL know that crossbows do not belong in ANY bowseason.

Get over it - stringgunners deserve their own season - but not BOWseason.


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## willie (Jul 2, 2003)

What you do not understand or refuse to acknowldge is that this season is *OURS* too.

For the P & Y and you to claim otherwise just reveals more of the greed and selfishness of you and the organization.

IF P & Y and you want to fight crossbows from being introduced into any new archery season - NO PROBLEM. We will fight for it too and I wont begudge them their fight.

If you and P & Y don't wnat to hunt with crossbowers in an already established season - move to the firerams season like you want the crossbwers to do.

But when you and them say they want to take away already established crossbow seasons then I call a spade a spade.

In that case you're both selfish, greedy, think of only yourseleves and yes......*ANTI-HUNTING.*


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## thesource (May 19, 2005)

And if it was a mistake to add crossbows to bowseason in the first place, then what? We all know that they do not belong in bowseason to begin with.

The truth is that I have no interest personally in repealing crossbows where they are legal. (By the way - you have been begrudging me for over a year)

I have a serious problem with the crossbow pushers who demand that crossbows be made legal in every state's bowseason, even when they are non-resident, even when they have no personal connection to said state, or using dirty and unethical tactics to get their way as the UCBK did.

The fact is Willie, if you and those like you feel you MUST intervene on behalf of crossbowers where you do not belong, then I can no longer think of a reason why I should not intervene against crossbowers where I do not belong.

Personally - I wish each state's sportsmen were left alone to determine the fate of crossbows, whether they be given their own season, included in gun or MZ season, or (god forbid) included in bow seasons. It should be done without interference from partisans of either side.


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## Bow1 (Sep 14, 2004)

*I have went down this road with you guys*

and you know where I stand, but if you turn the tables around, like the guys you snake bite over their opinion and because its not yours, how are you any different. You call Pope and Young "Poop and Dung" and be little them over their opinion. I agree its for hunting, lets promote hunting, you guys always say, more hunters regardless of the method, but you sit and redicule someone with an opinion and a club that is important to me. I think its wrong for you guys to do that. Maybe one day they will change but untill then they are still and organization that promotes archery and you label them as PETA fead. Wrong very wrong.

Keith


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## willie (Jul 2, 2003)

thesource said:


> And if it was a mistake to add crossbows to bowseason in the first place, then what? We all know that they do not belong in bowseason to begin with.


Who's call was that to make? The DNRs and /or the legislatures. Just like every season is decided. No, we *ALL* don't know that they dont belong. Just the selfish that want it all for themselves THINK that they don't belong.The DNRs and /or the legislatures disagree.

People said that about compounds too. Before that people said that about BOWS, period.



> The truth is that I have no interest personally in repealing crossbows where they are legal. (By the way - you have been begrudging me for over a year)


But you back the P & Y on their statement. Explain that.



> I have a serious problem with the crossbow pushers who demand that crossbows be made legal in every state's bowseason, even when they are non-resident, even when they have no personal connection to said state, or using dirty and unethical tactics to get their way as the UCBK did.


The UCBK recruited members just like any other club in KY. There is no residency requirement in any of their regulations. Unless you can show me where every KY LKS club is 100% KY residents you can forget this "unethical stuff".

he 5 new archery clubs who just happened to have 25 members each in the 3rd district should tell you something.



> The fact is Willie, if you and those like you feel you MUST intervene on behalf of crossbowers where you do not belong, then I can no longer think of a reason why I should not intervene against crossbowers where I do not belong.


Intervene all that you want. Crossbows are coming and there will be no denying them.

[quotePersonally - I wish each state's sportsmen were left alone to determine the fate of crossbows, whether they be given their own season, included in gun or MZ season, or (god forbid) included in bow seasons. It should be done without interference from partisans of either side.[/QUOTE]

*BULLCHIPS!!* No, you don't have a "serious problem" with outside interference or you wouldn't back P & Y's stance on a *nationwide* anti-crossbow legalization and *ABOLISHING* crossbow seasons in any state *nationwide.*

It's OK by you if they do this, but Little 'Ol Willie from Indiana cant advocate crossbow expansion in his native state where his family has property and he hunts half his time there.

P & Y shot themsleves in the foot big time by sticking that "abolish" statement in there. Strictly anti-hunting.The DNRs and legislatures are going to say "Who in the heck do they think they are telling us what to do with our already established seasons"? 

The P & Y board must have had their dunce hats on when they came up with that one.

I hope to see them go after the crossbow states now and expend whatever political capitol that they have. It will backfire in their faces....bigtime..


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## willie (Jul 2, 2003)

BOW1.,

Do you actually believe it is OK to take hunters out of already long established seasons like the P & Y wants to do?

It is *OUR* season too, you know. It is *NOT* exclusively vertical archery seasons.

It is bad enough when these groups/individuals don't want to share their extensive archery season, but to try and take away seasons from fellow hunters so they can have if all for themsleves?

Sorry, but I call them the way I see them. Selffish and greedy comes quickly to mind..

Since a good number of these crossbwers have been hunting close to 30 years they will quit before going to hunt in the firearm season.

Getting hunters out of the woods is _____________? (fill in the blank) 

BTW - P & Y is a bowhunting club, not an archery club.


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## Jim C (Oct 15, 2002)

Bow1 said:


> and you know where I stand, but if you turn the tables around, like the guys you snake bite over their opinion and because its not yours, how are you any different. You call Pope and Young "Poop and Dung" and be little them over their opinion. I agree its for hunting, lets promote hunting, you guys always say, more hunters regardless of the method, but you sit and redicule someone with an opinion and a club that is important to me. I think its wrong for you guys to do that. Maybe one day they will change but untill then they are still and organization that promotes archery and you label them as PETA fead. Wrong very wrong.
> 
> Keith



They want to take away hunting seasons from honest hardworking americans for no other reason than to massage their collective mental problems and selfish egos. that makes them the enemy in my book-an enemy that needs to be exposed to the public for what they truly stand for and its not for the good of hunting in general

any group that attacks crossbow archers as a serious threat to bowhunting needs to be taken apart in the court of public opinion and labeled for what they truly stand for


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## Bow1 (Sep 14, 2004)

*Hey Jim*

Where are you attaked? 

My goodnes you are becoming one.

Keith


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## Jim C (Oct 15, 2002)

Bow1 said:


> Where are you attaked?
> 
> My goodnes you are becoming one.
> 
> Keith



1) claiming those who use crossbows are a serious threat to bowhunting is an attack on thousands of good bowhunters based merely on what sort of bow they use

2) they insinuate (and often baldly state) that xbow archers are lazy or cheaters

3) they have lobbied to ban xbows in archery seasons and to rescind the ability of us to hunt in bowseason in Ohio

Poop and Dung needs to evaporate for the good of hunting 

they are a hateful force attacking other hunters

believe me-If I had the time I could really make this cult look bad to non hunters. egotistical trophy hunters are going to look bad in the eyes of the non hunting majority-especially when its easy to depict them as being against humane and accurate archery hunting


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## twogun (Nov 25, 2003)

Bow1 said:


> and you know where I stand, but if you turn the tables around, like the guys you snake bite over their opinion and because its not yours, how are you any different. You call Pope and Young "Poop and Dung" and be little them over their opinion. I agree its for hunting, lets promote hunting, you guys always say, more hunters regardless of the method, but *you sit and redicule someone with an opinion and a club that is important to me. I think its wrong for you guys to do that*. Maybe one day they will change but untill then they are still and organization that promotes archery and you label them as PETA fead. Wrong very wrong.
> 
> Keith



Keith,

Consider this issue from my perspective. I've been hunting for roughly 20 years, 19 with a crossbow. Crossbows have been part of bowseason and my hunting from the beginning. My hunting has evolved to the point where I almost solely hunt with a crossbow. I hunt with my compound in late bowseason and over the last 5 years haven't hunted with a gun but maybe a handful of times. I work extremely hard at my hunting and take a lot of pride in it.

P&Y comes along and tells me that they want to take away my chosen form of hunting or reduce my opportunity to practice it by 90%. Crossbow hunting violates none of the principles of "Fair Chase". It's perfectly legal. It has had no negetive impact on the deer herd. Over the 20 years I've hunted, the herd has grown; the bag limits have increased; the seasons have lengthened. Noone can point to a single negetive impact of crossbow hunting in Ohio.

Just exactly how would you feel toward a group/club that came along and went after your chosen form of hunting in the same manner? I'll bet you would have much more colorful words than poop and dung to describe them.


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## twogun (Nov 25, 2003)

> thesource:
> 
> To ignore the state by state situational specifics is ignorant and myopic, and clearly motivated by a political agenda, not a biological one.



Source and P&Y never address biologicla issues. Eventhough from the beginning of source's participation at AT I've challenged him to argue "situational specifics" as they pertain to individual states, he never does. By his own reasoning, source admits that his arguments and P&Y's are "ignorant", "myopic", and based on a political agenda.


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## thesource (May 19, 2005)

twogun said:


> Source and P&Y never address biologicla issues. Eventhough from the beginning of source's participation at AT I've challenged him to argue "situational specifics" as they pertain to individual states, he never does. By his own reasoning, source admits that his arguments and P&Y's are "ignorant", "myopic", and based on a political agenda.


Another lie.

We've discussed state situational specifics lots of times, like the fact that OH's 7 day gun season enables a 4 month archery season that most states do not enjoy. We've discussed the bowhunter density differences in a state like KY vs a state like MI or WI.

Your problem, Twogun, is that you try and make the herd size and bow and/or crossbow impact to the herd the ONLY state specific situation with complete disregard to the other factors that weapons might influence.

That is dishonest. There are a number of factors to consider in the decision to legalize crossbows or not, and you (and Jim) only want to focus on one.

*Well before we investigate your "biological issues" , what the impact to the herd will be from crossbows, we must answer amuch more basic question. Do crossbows belong in bowseason? No biologist can answer that....it has nothing to do with their field.*

There are plenty of ways to add crossbow hunting opportunity, only one of which is to include them into bowseasons that currently exist for BOWHUNTERS only.


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## thesource (May 19, 2005)

willie said:


> *BULLCHIPS!!* No, you don't have a "serious problem" with outside interference or you wouldn't back P & Y's stance on a *nationwide* anti-crossbow legalization and *ABOLISHING* crossbow seasons in any state *nationwide.*


I do not speak for P&Y. I do not have to agree with every single point of their position to support the organization or their general philosophy. P&Y is far and away the preeminent bowhunting organization, and a leader in protecting and preserving our bowhunting heritage. Their widely accepted ethics positions and rules of fair chase are a shining example of their leadership, and many game departments have set state regulations based upon these rules and in conference with P&Y.

They are an international organization. Their policies cannot be state specific. As a matter of principle, they have said crossbows are not bows and do not belong in bowseasons.

While I may be inclined to give a bye to states with existing crossbow seasons, they have no such luxury in their position. In this sense, they are actually more morally consistent .... if crossbows are wrong in bowseason, then they should be removed from those archery seasons that they are already corrupting. I am more sympathetic to those who have been hunting with crossbows, they are more sympathetic to the bowhunters who must suffer the crossbowers in their season.

Perhaps the ultimate solution is a grandfather clause - those who have been hunting with xbows can continue to do so, but no new crossbow hunters are allowed....who knows.

The reality of it is that crossbows will not be removed from seasons that they already exist in - we all know that. Those who have made that bed will continue to lie in it....


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## Jim C (Oct 15, 2002)

thesource said:


> Another lie.
> 
> We've discussed state situational specifics lots of times, like the fact that OH's 7 day gun season enables a 4 month archery season that most states do not enjoy. We've discussed the bowhunter density differences in a state like KY vs a state like MI or WI.
> 
> ...


massaging egos of the greedy and making people with self esteem problems feel better is NOT a legitimate grounds for restricting the choice of others yet this is the MAIN reason for Poop and Dung's whining and your 2000+ posts

all you and your ilk are left with (since you can't rely on biologists or any other scientific or fact based argument) is that uneasy feeling that someone, somewhere, using a crossbow might cause someone else to confuse a great white hunter like you with a crossbow archer


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## Jim C (Oct 15, 2002)

thesource said:


> I do not speak for P&Y. I do not have to agree with every single point of their position to support the organization or their general philosophy. P&Y is far and away the preeminent bowhunting organization, and a leader in protecting and preserving our bowhunting heritage. Their widely accepted ethics positions and rules of fair chase are a shining example of their leadership, and many game departments have set state regulations based upon these rules and in conference with P&Y.
> 
> They are an international organization. Their policies cannot be state specific. As a matter of principle, they have said crossbows are not bows and do not belong in bowseasons.
> 
> ...




what stupidity-the ultimate solution is complete elimination of Poop and Dung as having any influence in the debate. I always ask you banners and haters why xbow archers-when they become the dominant number of bowhunters in a state-should NOT treat you and your ilk any more kindly than PBS and Poop and Dung have treated them.

believe me-I can make a far more persuasive argument for banning Poop and Dung members from bowhunting than they can about crossbows


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## thesource (May 19, 2005)

I suspect your rhetoric is a shining example why P&Y is correct and crossbows are indeed a threat to bowhunting.


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## Free Range (Apr 18, 2005)

> believe me-I can make a far more persuasive argument for banning Poop and Dung members from bowhunting than they can about crossbows


Ok lets hear your persuasive argument as to why members of an organization that has done more for bowhunting, then all of the other so called bowhunting organizations combined have and will ever do, should be banned from bow season? This should be good. Just a guess on my part but I bet it will have something to do with a lot of name calling, them being racist, jihad, bigots, selfish, greedy, anti hunter, what other persuasive arguments are you well known for, oh yeah stupid, self esteem problems, messaging egos, ignorant, I’m sure there are more.


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## Jim C (Oct 15, 2002)

thesource said:


> I suspect your rhetoric is a shining example why P&Y is correct and crossbows are indeed a threat to bowhunting.


I suspect it will be a while before Poop and Dung worries about me and they probably will be irrelevant before I have the time to deal with them in the way they should be dealt with

they are selfish greedfreaks-and we all know that


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## Free Range (Apr 18, 2005)

> By Willie
> People said that about compounds too. Before that people said that about BOWS, period.


I keep hearing this but so far no one has offered any proof of this. Willie, please provide proof of this lie you and others keep repeating. 



> Do you actually believe it is OK to take hunters out of already long established seasons like the P & Y wants to do?


Another lie, show me where anyone said they wanted to take hunters out of any season? 



> By Jim
> They want to take away hunting seasons from honest hardworking americans for no other reason than to massage their collective mental problems and selfish egos.



Jim you are lying, show me where they said they want to take away hunting season from anybody. 



> they have lobbied to ban xbows in archery seasons and to rescind the ability of us to hunt in bowseason in Ohio


Where, where did they say they want to rescind your ability to hunt in Ohio? 



> believe me-If I had the time I could really make this cult look bad to non hunters. egotistical trophy hunters are going to look bad in the eyes of the non hunting majority-especially when its easy to depict them as being against humane and accurate archery hunting


How are you going to do that Jim? You say the compound is more accurate then the x-bow, and there is no evidence that bows wound more then the x-bow, I would argue the x-bow wounds more. 



> By twogun
> P&Y comes along and tells me that they want to take away my chosen form of hunting or reduce my opportunity to practice it by 90%. Crossbow hunting violates none of the principles of "Fair Chase". It's perfectly legal. It has had no negetive impact on the deer herd. Over the 20 years I've hunted, the herd has grown; the bag limits have increased; the seasons have lengthened. Noone can point to a single negetive impact of crossbow hunting in Ohio.


How would having to change to a compound affect your hunt?


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## Jim C (Oct 15, 2002)

Free Range said:


> Ok lets hear your persuasive argument as to why members of an organization that has done more for bowhunting, then all of the other so called bowhunting organizations combined have and will ever do, should be banned from bow season? This should be good. Just a guess on my part but I bet it will have something to do with a lot of name calling, them being racist, jihad, bigots, selfish, greedy, anti hunter, what other persuasive arguments are you well known for, oh yeah stupid, self esteem problems, messaging egos, ignorant, I’m sure there are more.



1) you are lying if you think Poop and Dung has done the most. actually the NRA has done far more for hunting rights than Poop and Dung and I would love to see the money but I think I am on strong grounds saying that IBO has raised far more money than a Poop-the numbers aren't there

2) the quest for ego stroking trophies is a place to start. I don't have a problem with that but poll after poll shows that those who hunt for meat tend to get far more support than the quest for getting your name in a book. we all know that that ambition is what has caused lots of the distasteful stories of fenced hunts, paying huge trophy fees and other activities which has made P&Y records often a province of the rich and well connected

3) P&Y's rants about crossbows are selfish, slanderous, ego driven and anti hunting and no one can defend that BS as being anything other than that


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## Jim C (Oct 15, 2002)

Free Range said:


> Jim you are lying, show me where they said they want to take away hunting season from anybody.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


1-you really aren't so stupid as to not be able to understand what Willie posted-are you? stop playing sophist word games-you will argue that banning xbows where they are legal doesn't prevent people from hunting with other bows but that is dishonest. Poop and Dung wants to tell those people legally hunting in the four month ohio season that they cannot do that anymore

2) of course you would say that-its the ignorant choice-





Free Range said:


> How would having to change to a compound affect your hunt?


me it wouldn't but I tire of having intellectual and moral inferiors like the leadership of Poop and Dung telling me I should comply with their ego driven BS when they cannot establish any problems xbows have caused in my state

many would quit bowhunting and that is exactly what those greedy elitists as poop want


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## Free Range (Apr 18, 2005)

> you really aren't so stupid as to not be able to understand what Willie posted-are you? stop playing sophist word games-you will argue that banning xbows where they are legal doesn't prevent people from hunting with other bows but that is dishonest. Poop and Dung wants to tell those people legally hunting in the four month ohio season that they cannot do that anymore


Exactly, they can use a bow, and for those that can’t, they can get a waiver. If you are going to put words in the mouth of someone at least do it without lying. 



> many would quit bowhunting and that is exactly what those greedy elitists as poop want


Why, why would they quit hunting? We already know they don’t bow hunt, but why would they not pick up a compound? How much difference is there between the compound and the x-bow, Jim? Or is there really more difference then you have been leading us to believe?


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## Jim C (Oct 15, 2002)

Free Range said:


> Exactly, they can use a bow, and for those that can’t, they can get a waiver. If you are going to put words in the mouth of someone at least do it without lying.
> 
> 
> 
> Why, why would they quit hunting? We already know they don’t bow hunt, but why would they not pick up a compound? How much difference is there between the compound and the x-bow, Jim? Or is there really more difference then you have been leading us to believe?


as I said-sophist arguments based on control freak nonsense

what is with you people? why do you feel a need to restrict what others do merely to massage your own self image and ego? 

I ask again-tell me why xbow hunters shouldn't engage in retribution against Poop and Dung when they become the majority

I want to hear you argue why what is good for the goose is not good for the gander

after all if banning or restricting a bow can be justified merely due to the FEELINGS of one group-why shouldn't vengeance for years of slander and lies be sound reasons for a turnaround?

I want you and your ilk to argue for why you have a right to a long season if the majority or state DNR's were to contemplate giving you the boot

Maybe when you search your gray matter for a plausible answer-you will realize how pathetically lame and selfish your anti xbow bloviation is


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## Jim C (Oct 15, 2002)

I am having a difficult time finding out how many people actually belong to P&Y. their own website says only 200 can be regular or full members (hint-the elitist tag seems to fit) while associate and senior members is unlimited

yet I found this little tidbit out during my search

http://www.outdoorlife.com/outdoor/hunting/article/0,19912,602990,00.html

bridge this growing divide, late last year P&Y’s voting members voted 294 to 148 to rescind the let-off rule. Now any animal legally killed with a bow can be listed in P&Y’s records

wow-less than 500 people voting on what was a major change for this group

500 people-that's less than the number of people who belong to say my local sportsmen club in Ohio and less than the number of the membership and their families who has used the archery facilities at that club. Yet Free Range claims this group does more for bowhunting than say the NFAA-the group that was the roots of P&Y or the IBO


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## Free Range (Apr 18, 2005)

> you are lying if you think Poop and Dung has done the most. actually the NRA has done far more for hunting rights than Poop and Dung and I would love to see the money but I think I am on strong grounds saying that IBO has raised far more money than a Poop-the numbers aren't there


For bowhunting, Jim. If you will recall the NRA is not a bowhunting specific organization, and while I agree the NRA has likely done more for “hunting” they don’t hold a candle to P&Y when it comes to bow hunting. And the IBO? Come on, they my raise a lot of money, but what have they done for bow hunting? I’m sure they have done much, but again, when it comes to helping establish bow hunting, seasons, bag limits, and expanding opportunities for bow hunters, the P&Y club stands alone, head and shoulders above the rest. 



> the quest for ego stroking trophies is a place to start. I don't have a problem with that but poll after poll shows that those who hunt for meat tend to get far more support than the quest for getting your name in a book. we all know that that ambition is what has caused lots of the distasteful stories of fenced hunts, paying huge trophy fees and other activities which has made P&Y records often a province of the rich and well connected


While I agree with the whole trophy thing, it is hardly the fault of P&Y that people choose to use their record keeping as a means to self promotion and to feed their ego. Just as it’s not the fault of the NFAA, you continually tell us how great and knowledgeable you are about target archery.


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## willie (Jul 2, 2003)

> Quote:
> By Willie
> People said that about compounds too. Before that people said that about BOWS, period


. 




> FR ..I keep hearing this but so far no one has offered any proof of this. Willie, please provide proof of this lie you and others keep repeating.


I guess that you are way too young to remember it. It did happen and there are even some trad hunters today that believe that compounds *and *crossbows neither one should be allowed in "their season". After all the seaosn was founded on the use of trad equipment - only we did not call it that in those days.

No lie at all. We have ALWAYS had luddites in archery.




> Quote:willie -
> Do you actually believe it is OK to take hunters out of already long established seasons like the P & Y wants to do?





> Another lie, show me where anyone said they wanted to take hunters out of any season?


Gad... your'e quick with calling people a liar, aren't you?

Can you read? Read the statement where they want to abolish all crossbowing in a season that just happens to be archery.

Then re-read two gun's statemnet. The P & Y woudl like to kick two gun and folks like him out of the season.

AGAIN - It is *OUR* season too. We got it just like vetrical archers got theirs. that makes it right.

Very seflish people...


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## Love Bowhunting (Jun 15, 2006)

it isn't in it for a crossbow hunter to ban another bowhunter on the basis of their equipment.

my experience is that crossbowhunters do not care what the other fellow chooses to bowhunt with.

the facts are most bowhunters do not care either. It's only those with self esteem problems who self appoint themselves that do this.


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## Jim C (Oct 15, 2002)

Love Bowhunting said:


> it isn't in it for a crossbow hunter to ban another bowhunter on the basis of their equipment.
> 
> my experience is that crossbowhunters do not care what the other fellow chooses to bowhunt with.
> 
> the facts are most bowhunters do not care either. It's only those with self esteem problems who self appoint themselves that do this.


you are right

the reason why I ask the spokespersons for the selfish side of bowhunting is to force them to justify why they should be able to continue to bowhunt in OUR season. I do not advocate banning anyone from bowhunting based on what sort of bow they use. rather I ask the question to demonstrate how truly intellectually bankrupt the arguments of people like source are

if we applied their thinking to them-they would have a hard time justifying their own continued presence in the season


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## awshucks (Mar 4, 2006)

*legislation and hunting rights*

Jim: I recall reading somewhere that P & Y has 7,700 members.


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## Jim C (Oct 15, 2002)

awshucks said:


> Jim: I recall reading somewhere that P & Y has 7,700 members.



thanks-I couldn't find it-sounds rather interesting that less than 500 were or wanted or cared to vote on the letoff rule. 

hardly a significant number given the number of bowhunters there are


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## willie (Jul 2, 2003)

Love Bowhunting said:


> it isn't in it for a crossbow hunter to ban another bowhunter on the basis of their equipment.
> 
> my experience is that crossbowhunters do not care what the other fellow chooses to bowhunt with.
> 
> the facts are most bowhunters do not care either. It's only those with self esteem problems who self appoint themselves that do this.


*BINGO!!*

Ask BigBirdVa about his acceptance in the crossbowing ranks.

He made a statement about it being refreshing to talk to other hunters that couldn't care less what equipment that he or anyone else hunts with.

Amazing also in that all the recent states that have legalized crossbws it has been much ado about nothing once the season starts.

In Georgia, Alabama, Virginia and Tennessee they are seeing that the big squawk came from a very vocal minority of self appointed and annointed elitists. More and more other state's DNRs are picking up on that. 

All they need to do is weather the initial storm (from self appointed and annointed elitists) and then it will be smooth sailing with a new hunting tool, expanded opportunities, more revenues and another tool for managing the herd.

Those folks still grumble some, but by and large it is just "Let's go hunting and quite worrying about what the other guys hunts with". 

In the end it is much ado about *nothing.*



.


----------



## Free Range (Apr 18, 2005)

> No lie at all. We have ALWAYS had luddites in archery.


So we should just take your word for it? Proof please.



> Can you read? Read the statement where they want to abolish all crossbowing in a season that just happens to be archery.



Yes I can, but apparently you cannot, they said abolish the x-bow from bow season, the hunters can stay if they want.


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## Tim4Trout (Jul 10, 2003)

When say for example a 50-60 year old who can no longer draw a conventional bow due to arthritis or another ailment is unable to bowhunt with his or her son, daughter, grandson, or granddaughter because of restrictions on the general use of crossbows, perhaps we need look no further than to groups like ( as Jim C says ) "poop and dung" and their anti crossbow efforts for a reason why.


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## thesource (May 19, 2005)

Tim4Trout said:


> When say for example a 50-60 year old who can no longer draw a conventional bow due to arthritis or another ailment is unable to bowhunt with his or her son, daughter, grandson, or granddaughter because of restrictions on the general use of crossbows, perhaps we need look no further than to groups like ( as Jim C says ) "poop and dung" and their anti crossbow efforts for a reason why.


 Why not exceptions to the rule instead of carte blanche pollution of archery season with crossbows? Most bowhunters do not have any problem allowing crossbows for those who NEED them....especially for worn out ex-bowhunters.

Why not a drawlock on a real bow, in those cases? I never hear you guys talk about that, just ram the old crossbow down the throat of bowhunters.


----------



## Free Range (Apr 18, 2005)

And what about when they are so feeble they can’t even use a x-bow, what then?


----------



## thesource (May 19, 2005)

willie said:


> Ask BigBirdVa about his acceptance in the crossbowing ranks.
> 
> He made a statement about it being refreshing to talk to other hunters that couldn't care less what equipment that he or anyone else hunts with.


Let's see how accepting xbowers are if MZ comes knocking. Its just another "choice" after all.

My guess is most xbowers would jettison the xbow for an even more advantaged weapon...that's WHY they use a stringgun in the first place (ask BBVA about THAT too)

Any that remain would probably be far less accomodating, might even bristle at the idea that a weapon that doesn't belong is being forced into the season that they love.


----------



## Jim C (Oct 15, 2002)

thesource said:


> Let's see how accepting xbowers are if MZ comes knocking. Its just another "choice" after all.
> 
> My guess is most xbowers would jettison the xbow for an even more advantaged weapon...that's WHY they use a stringgun in the first place (ask BBVA about THAT too)
> 
> Any that remain would probably be far less accomodating, might even bristle at the idea that a weapon that doesn't belong is being forced into the season that they love.



source the angler reels in another RED HERRING. stick stuck on selfish too


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## Jim C (Oct 15, 2002)

thesource said:


> Why not exceptions to the rule instead of carte blanche pollution of archery season with crossbows? Most bowhunters do not have any problem allowing crossbows for those who NEED them....especially for worn out ex-bowhunters.
> 
> Why not a drawlock on a real bow, in those cases? I never hear you guys talk about that, just ram the old crossbow down the throat of bowhunters.



now source claims fellow hunters pollute his sanctified holy bowseason. you don't have to hunt with one and no one rams a crossbow down your throat.

you need to get over your psychological problems that cause you to call other citizens "pollutants". its rude, its uncalled for and you aren't half the man of most of the xbow hunters I know


----------



## thesource (May 19, 2005)

Note to other readers:

When Jim claims "red herring", that is code for "I just got my doors blown off...."

He's been claiming that a lot lately. LOL:darkbeer:


----------



## thesource (May 19, 2005)

Jim C said:


> you need to get over your psychological problems that cause you to call other citizens "pollutants". its rude, its uncalled for and you aren't half the man of most of the xbow hunters I know


You are not allowed to lecture anyone about being rude....the things that you have called bowhunters while on your compound bashing tirades are terrible, and the innuendo of your slander of trad shooters is indefensible.

Stop crying.


----------



## willie (Jul 2, 2003)

thesource said:


> Let's see how accepting xbowers are if MZ comes knocking. Its just another "choice" after all.


The muzzleloader is not an archery hunting tool. Simple, eh?



> My guess is most xbowers would jettison the xbow for an even more advantaged weapon...that's WHY they use a stringgun in the first place (ask BBVA about THAT too)


You mean like the "bowhunters" do now when the fireram season rolls around. The bows are hung up and the firepower comes out.

Nothing wrong with, but just don't pull a PCTKB on us.



> Any that remain would probably be far less accomodating, might even bristle at the idea that a weapon that doesn't belong is being forced into the season that they love.


Muzzleloader = firearm,

Crossbow = archery equipment 

But, you do bring up a valid point. When the DNRs cant kill enough deer in the firearms season they will expand it. Then the "bow" season time period will be looked at very severely to puts guns in.

Choice...

A hunting tool that goes *BOOM...*

*Or * 

...a hunting tool that goes THUMP.

Which do you refer in early archery season?


----------



## willie (Jul 2, 2003)

> Quote:
> No lie at all. We have ALWAYS had luddites in archery.





> FR - So we should just take your word for it? Proof please.


You have my sworn statement that this is true. How do I know? I was one of them.

Gee, some things are self evident. If you weren’t around back then (and I doubt it), then you’ll have to take someone’s word for it. If you don’t too bad.



> Quote:
> Can you read? Read the statement where they want to abolish all crossbowing in a season that just happens to be archery


. 




> FR - Yes I can, but apparently you cannot, they said abolish the x-bow from bow season, the hunters can stay if they want.


And they are attempting to abolish that hunter who uses that crossbow and had *ALWAYS USED A CROSSBOW*.. As I said – *IT IS OUR SEASON TOO.*



> FR - And what about when they are so feeble they can’t even use a x-bow, what then?


They can always go to selfish, greedy and hypocritical New York state where they can only use a blow tube to activate a crossbow.


----------



## thesource (May 19, 2005)

willie said:


> The muzzleloader is not an archery hunting tool. Simple, eh?




That won't keep it from encroaching into archery seasons - they already tried it here in NY.

Oh, wait .... you said you were "all for an MZ weekend or two during early archery" on TN deer - I guess you are not one of those crossbowers we can count on to defend archery taht Twogun talks about.... 



willie said:


> You mean like the "bowhunters" do now when the fireram season rolls around. The bows are hung up and the firepower comes out.
> 
> Nothing wrong with, but just don't pull a PCTKB on us.


Now how would that be PCTKB, Wil - LIE? I have absolutely no problem when folks step to the most advantaged weapon that is legally allowed into a season....

My problem is changing the rules to allow even more advantaged weapons into a season just so you can gain advantage. 




willie said:


> Muzzleloader = firearm,
> 
> Crossbow = archery equipment


Bow = BOW

We all get it Wil-LIE. Its the whining and crying to push one into the next easier season that is the common thread ... and the unpalatable one.



willie said:


> Choice...
> A hunting tool that goes BOOM
> Or
> ...a hunting tool that goes THUMP.
> Which do you refer in early archery season?


I prefer BOWS ONLY in BOWseason.....simple, eh?


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## thesource (May 19, 2005)

willie said:


> And they are attempting to abolish that hunter who uses that crossbow and had *ALWAYS USED A CROSSBOW*.. As I said – *IT IS OUR SEASON TOO.*


Learn to use a bow, just like the rest of us had to. You always tell us how easy it is. You say that crossbows and compounds are the same - shouldn't be difficult to transitition at all.

Get off your butts and use compounds - what's the problem, whiner?


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## Jim C (Oct 15, 2002)

thesource said:


> You are not allowed to lecture anyone about being rude....the things that you have called bowhunters while on your compound bashing tirades are terrible, and the innuendo of your slander of trad shooters is indefensible.
> 
> Stop crying.



gee source I never called compound hunters anything of the sort-I merely noted that compound archers who whine about xbows being too easy are hypocrites

we have all seen you call thousands of crossbow archers lazy, pollutants, cheaters etc

your arrogance and snobbery towards them is pathetic and its all because you have self esteem issues

I am correct in pointing out that the trad ranks are the dumping grounds of compound archers who developed form flaws-every single major league coach will tell you that


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## Jim C (Oct 15, 2002)

thesource said:
 

> Learn to use a bow, just like the rest of us had to. You always tell us how easy it is. You say that crossbows and compounds are the same - shouldn't be difficult to transitition at all.
> 
> Get off your butts and use compounds - what's the problem, whiner?



more ego problems

why do you care


----------



## thesource (May 19, 2005)

Jim C said:


> gee source I never called compound hunters anything of the sort-I merely noted that compound archers who whine about xbows being too easy are hypocrites


Gee, Jim - you've done a lot more than that, now haven't you? Apartheid, bigot, cultist, greedy, KKK, elitist.....on and on and on.

No .... you have been a very bad boy and do not have ANY moral high ground.



Jim C said:


> I am correct in pointing out that the trad ranks are the dumping grounds of compound archers who developed form flaws-every single major league coach will tell you that


You've claimed infinitely worse than that, slandered all trad shooters based on your observation of a few (perhaps.) I'm doubting the trad hunters hang around you too much....I know I wouldn't be able to stand all that braying.


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## Free Range (Apr 18, 2005)

> And they are attempting to abolish that hunter who uses that crossbow and had ALWAYS USED A CROSSBOW.. As I said – IT IS OUR SEASON TOO.



Nope it is only your miss guided opinion that this is what they want, they have never said it, and in fact work hard to promote bow hunting and recruit MORE bow hunters. Fact, deal with it and get off your pitty horse, if you let someone stop you from hunting just because you can’t use a x-bow, then you're not worth worrying about in the first place. 



> They can always go to selfish, greedy and hypocritical New York state where they can only use a blow tube to activate a crossbow.



What if they can’t get out and hunt what then?


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## Free Range (Apr 18, 2005)

> Originally Posted by Jim C
> I am correct in pointing out that the trad ranks are the dumping grounds of compound archers who developed form flaws-every single major league coach will tell you that


Major league coach? Please give the name or how to contact 20 “major League coaches” I will ask them myself.


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## thesource (May 19, 2005)

Jim C said:


> we have all seen you call thousands of crossbow archers lazy, pollutants, cheaters etc


Unapologetically.

I feel them lazy if they wait for crossbows to become legal before they dare venture forth into bowseason.

I consider it cheating to use a weapon that requires the use of ZERO archery skills in archery season.

Pollutants is probably a tad strong...but it gets the point across. They do not belong in bowseason and they taint it, ruin it for those who do belong there.

Don't want to hear it? Grab a bow .... or get your own season.


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## Jim C (Oct 15, 2002)

thesource said:


> Gee, Jim - you've done a lot more than that, now haven't you? Apartheid, bigot, cultist, greedy, KKK, elitist.....on and on and on.
> 
> No .... you have been a very bad boy and do not have ANY moral high ground.
> 
> ...



I realize you don't really read what people say very closely but here is the truth source

I CALL compound shooters those terms IF THEY ATTACK CROSSBOW HUNTERS

I DO NOT BASH people based on what sort of bow they used. some compound hunters are top flight people-some are not-same with crossbow archers, same with trads

YOU ON THE OTHER HAND-insult people based SOLELY on what sort of bow they use

big difference


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## Jim C (Oct 15, 2002)

thesource said:


> Unapologetically.
> 
> I feel them lazy if they wait for crossbows to become legal before they dare venture forth into bowseason.
> 
> ...



we will get our season-its called archery season just as the compound archers did

people like you taint hunting-you are PETA's best agent on this board

zero archery skills-you bragged that you aren't an archer-this explains the stupidity of that comment. as I said, when you learn how to shoot a bow, crawl back here and apologize for polluting this board with such a moronic comment

trajectory management and range estimation are archery skills source that are the same for either bow-of course since you don't bowhunt you wouldn't know that. Not being an archer and not having any integrity concerning archery, you merely define archery skills so as to support your selfish hatred of crossbows

those of us who are real archers and who don't seek to draw divisions among our fellow worthy bowhunters understand what archery is and we know you are unlearned in that area


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## Jim C (Oct 15, 2002)

Free Range said:


> Nope it is only your miss guided opinion that this is what they want, they have never said it, and in fact work hard to promote bow hunting and recruit MORE bow hunters. Fact, deal with it and get off your pitty horse, if you let someone stop you from hunting just because you can’t use a x-bow, then you're not worth worrying about in the first place.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


RED HERRING-you don't want them to use crossbows so your faux concern is dishonest


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## thesource (May 19, 2005)

Jim C said:


> YOU ON THE OTHER HAND-insult people based SOLELY on what sort of bow they use


Jim - I mean this with absolute sincerity - I have yet to meet a crossbow hunter online who is not obnoxious and insulting to me before I am with him.

If I am to judge the character of all crossbowers from the ones I have interfaced with here - not good.


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## thesource (May 19, 2005)

Jim C said:


> trajectory management and range estimation are archery skills source that are the same for either bow-of course since you don't bowhunt you wouldn't know that. Not being an archer and not having any integrity concerning archery, you merely define archery skills so as to support your selfish hatred of crossbows


Trajectory management is not unique to archery - duh. There may be less to manage, but you are full of it if you think this is an archery only skill. Same with range estimation. It is more critical, of course, to crossbows then to handguns, for example, but it is not negligible for any hunter. It is, of course, more critical for a compound hunter shooting 260fps then an exomax shooter launching 355 fps. Duh.

No we are talking about THE archery skills required to shoot a bow ALL of which are absent when shooting a crossbow.

You crossbowers are archery skillless - I know that pisses you off, but its true.


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## Jim C (Oct 15, 2002)

thesource said:


> Jim - I mean this with absolute sincerity - I have yet to meet a crossbow hunter online who is not obnoxious and insulting to me before I am with him.
> 
> If I am to judge the character of all crossbowers from the ones I have interfaced with here - not good.


given you have spent 99% of your 2000 plus posts on this forum insulting crossbow archers your comments on this are hardly relevant. You came here to whine about crossbows and your only submissions on AT have basically been ranting about crossbows in a feeble attempt to bolster your own self esteem by putting an entire class of bowhunter down.

If we were to judge all trad hunters by you we probably would be calling for a ban on bowhunting


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## Jim C (Oct 15, 2002)

thesource said:


> Trajectory management is not unique to archery - duh. There may be less to manage, but you are full of it if you think this is an archery only skill. Same with range estimation. It is more critical, of course, to crossbows then to handguns, for example, but it is not negligible for any hunter. It is, of course, more critical for a compound hunter shooting 260fps then an exomax shooter launching 355 fps. Duh.
> 
> No we are talking about THE archery skills required to shoot a bow ALL of which are absent when shooting a crossbow.
> 
> You crossbowers are archery skillless - I know that pisses you off, but its true.



many "real archers" I know claim that compounds eliminated all of the essential archery skills. that's why Ann Hoyt-whose credentials in archery and bowhunting are at the very very top of the heap-noted that learning how to shoot a compound teaches you how to aim-learning how to shoot an olympic bow teaches you how to



shoot a bow

Ann btw has taken dozens of animals with longbows, compound bows, recurve bows and (gasp) ten point crossbows


----------



## thesource (May 19, 2005)

Jim C said:


> many "real archers" I know claim that compounds eliminated all of the essential archery skills. that's why Ann Hoyt-whose credentials in archery and bowhunting are at the very very top of the heap-noted that learning how to shoot a compound teaches you how to aim-learning how to shoot an olympic bow teaches you how to
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Sorry - I could care less about Ann Hoyt or her opinion.

I know what it takes to shoot compounds and recurves because I have shot both, hunted with both, and killed every deer I have shot at with both.

And I have shot a crossbow - and it took NONE of the skills I have learned and employed with real bows to do real bowhunting.


----------



## Love Bowhunting (Jun 15, 2006)

Jim

aren't the founders of TenPoint accomplished archers?

they would destroy Source in any archery contest, but of course when one doesn't shoot a bow or really even bowhunt that is not saying all that much.

The World Archery Festival has crossbow archery and so does the IBO. They promote all archery. 

the NRA's competive division does not have any crossbows.


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## Jim C (Oct 15, 2002)

thesource said:


> Sorry - I could care less about Ann Hoyt or her opinion.
> 
> I know what it takes to shoot compounds and recurves because I have shot both, hunted with both, and killed every deer I have shot at with both.
> 
> And I have shot a crossbow - and it took NONE of the skills I have learned and employed with real bows to do real bowhunting.



spoken like a non archer; I don't believe anything you say. I don't believe you hunt, I don't believe you have shot crossbows and I know for a fact you are clueless about archery

the only thing I believe you on is your claim that you aren't an archer

that I trust is true


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## twogun (Nov 25, 2003)

thesource said:


> Jim - I mean this with absolute sincerity - *I have yet to meet a crossbow hunter online who is not obnoxious and insulting to me before I am with him.*If I am to judge the character of all crossbowers from the ones I have interfaced with here - not good.



Total and complete Bull Crap!!!!!!!!!!

You insulted every crossbow hunter from Ohio when you first got here. You continue to insult all crossbow hunters everywhere with your continued accusations of cheating and violating "Fair Chase".


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## Jim C (Oct 15, 2002)

Love Bowhunting said:


> Jim
> 
> aren't the founders of TenPoint accomplished archers?
> 
> ...


1) Rick Bednar was the fourth man on the four man USA team that won the world gold medal. Merely making that team was tough given that half the top 15 archers in the world at that time were from the USA with the USA sweeping the 83 worlds for example and Pace and Mckinney winning gold or silver or both at every worlds from 75 through 85 IIRC

2) the father Bill Bednar-PAA champion-back in the pre olympic days when the PAA was the home of the best archers in the world

3) I shot in 5 NRA US international shooting championships (skeet) one of my roommates when I was an RA at the OTC was Mike Anti-silver medal in Athens. I never heard of anyone shooting a crosbow there. One of my in laws best friends is John Rost-he won numerous rifle titles at camp perry. He was 6th in the 84 games in Air rifle and won the 83 Pan Ams-he never mentioned anyone shooting crossbows at camp Perry. I have been an NRA life member for almost 30 years-never once saw a crossbow article in AMERICAN RIFLEMAN

4) I have shot in 8 or nine US National archery championships, 2 NFAA national championships-and over 100 sanctioned tournaments and I have seen crossbows in most of them


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## Love Bowhunting (Jun 15, 2006)

TwoGun

you gotta look at the source

he really only insults himself with his accusations and pretending to be a bowhunter and archer

he's probably just some disfunctional kid seeking attention and talking to bowhunters on this forum is a close to bowhunting and archery he's ever got.


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## Jim C (Oct 15, 2002)

twogun said:


> Total and complete Bull Crap!!!!!!!!!!
> 
> You insulted every crossbow hunter from Ohio when you first got here. You continue to insult all crossbow hunters everywhere with your continued accusations of cheating and violating "Fair Chase".



sources first 100 or so posts were whinings about crossbows. in fact all but say 15 or so of his posts are whinings about crossbows


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## thesource (May 19, 2005)

twogun said:


> Total and complete Bull Crap!!!!!!!!!!
> 
> You insulted every crossbow hunter from Ohio when you first got here. You continue to insult all crossbow hunters everywhere with your continued accusations of cheating and violating "Fair Chase".



You still managed to beat me to it twogun. You were the only one I wondered about ... you were almost reasonable when I first came to AT, but you quickly showed your colors as a partisan protecting his self interests.

But you were still obnoxious then, and you certainly are now. The number of threads you have started over the last year just to fuel this fire proves that.

You are first I remember to coin the term "antihunter" for anyone who dared oppose crossbows.... very insulting, that.


----------



## thesource (May 19, 2005)

Jim C said:


> sources first 100 or so posts were whinings about crossbows. in fact all but say 15 or so of his posts are whinings about crossbows


You would be wrong - yet AGAIN. (are you EVER right?)


----------



## twogun (Nov 25, 2003)

_Now back to our regularly scheduled programming._


Pope and Young's position:

I believe that P&Y's position is more a result of a perceived threat to their own realavance and not to that of bowhunting in general. Compound bow hnting will continue for those who truly enjoy hunting with a compound the same way traditional bowhunting has continued for those who enjoy that. The crossbow will not change this or take away anything from bowhunters, but it may very well take away something from P&Y.

Read this statement about the 65% let off change and insert crossbows:




> By M.R. James, Founder/Editor Emeritus
> 
> AS A SENIOR MEMBER of the Pope and Young Club since 1980 and editor of three of the five P&Y record books published since 1975, I have been involved in various club activities for more than 32 years. I served on the board of directors from 1986 to 2000, including a 10-year stint as first vice president. I've been an official measurer since 1978. .............





> As I see it, we must admit we made a mistake. Why? For years now, about 80 percent of compound bows sold have greater than 65-percent letoff. That means most bowhunters heading afield this fall will be toting bows that are P&Y "illegal," and none of the trophy animals they harvest will be eligible for the P&Y record book. In my opinion, something is definitely wrong when our record system excludes a majority of legally licensed bowhunters.
> 
> *Not only does this deprive the Club of valuable revenue *needed for many worthwhile projects, but worse, it means our club no longer fulfills a fundamental P&Y goal of serving as repository for bowhunting records of North American big game. And as long as a majority of this continent's bowhunters use equipment deemed unacceptable by Pope and Young, we will never collect truly representative trophy data. Without change, we'll soon be accepting and documenting a mere fraction of the total annual trophy harvest.
> 
> Given that fact, the Club's credibility is at stake. We can stubbornly stick to our 65-percent rule and exclude an increasing number of worthy trophies year after year, or we can accept the reality of a changing bowhunting world and realize that this particular equipment issue is not really significant.


That clears things right up. P&Y is concerned with revenue and their own selfish credibility.


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## thesource (May 19, 2005)

Jim C said:


> I don't believe anything you say. I don't believe you hunt, I don't believe you have shot crossbows


I don't believe I care what you believe. Its just not important to me, sorry to burst your bubble.


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## Jim C (Oct 15, 2002)

thesource said:


> You would be wrong - yet AGAIN. (are you EVER right?)



gee-maybe I will have recordkeeper or some other administrator find your posts from back then-many of those threads were deleted

everyone remembers your appearance here-I remember posting the fact that your first 65 or so posts were all rants about xbows

where does this obsession come from


----------



## Jim C (Oct 15, 2002)

thesource said:


> I don't believe I care what you believe. Its just not important to me, sorry to burst your bubble.



that you come here and blather about xbows proves you really do care what we say.


----------



## twogun (Nov 25, 2003)

thesource said:


> You still managed to beat me to it twogun. You were the only one I wondered about ... you were almost reasonable when I first came to AT, but you quickly showed your colors as a partisan protecting his self interests.
> 
> But you were still obnoxious then, and you certainly are now. The number of threads you have started over the last year just to fuel this fire proves that.
> 
> You are first I remember to coin the term "antihunter" for anyone who dared oppose crossbows.... very insulting, that.



We've been down this road before. I set you straight then, yet you continue to misrepresent my position and my comments. The first time I wrote it off as an honest mistake, eventhough you persisted with your accustations after I clearly showed you were wrong. You don't get the same bennefit of the doubt this time. When I've jumped to conclusions about your acts or statements, I've been man enough to admit it. I can't say the same for you. If that is being obnoxious and insulting, then I guess the truth just hurts sometimes. My position is now and has always been that simply opposing crossbow expansion or use does not make someone an anti-hunter. On the other hand, if in your opposition you bash decent, honest, ethical, "Fair Chase" hunters to simply further you agenda then you are infact acting as an anti-hunter. I've explained this to you before and provided several of my own quotes to back it up.

If memory serves, I treated you respectfully until you responded to one of my posts with "Nice try chump." I then dubbed you "Richard Noggin". The rest is history.


----------



## Free Range (Apr 18, 2005)

> By JimC
> RED HERRING-you don't want them to use crossbows so your faux concern is dishonest


And you cannot answer a question, it has been demonstrated over and over that you have no interest in a real debate, perhaps because you know you have no grounds, or maybe because you know you lack the talent.


----------



## Jim C (Oct 15, 2002)

twogun said:


> _Now back to our regularly scheduled programming._
> 
> 
> Pope and Young's position:
> ...


I remember getting a 1970 or so era catalog from both Kittredge's bow hut (In California) and Anderson Archery in MIchigan. all but the allen bow were "trad bows"-wilson black widows, bears, shakespeare, hoyt, damon howatt, shakespeare etc

a few years later-lots of compounds including Dave hughes advertising the bear Tamerlane, the PSE citations, astros, carrolls, allens, jennings, etc. very few "trad bows"-just olympic target rigs like the bear C handle, the wilson A frame and the hoyt medalist. 

yet, trad bows have made a comeback

I was in TARGETWORLD TODAY (if you want to buy a good compound bow in Cincinnati-see them) and a young man was talking to the manager (TOM) about buying a compound bow-he noted as a kid he shot a compound but when he started working while in school he went to a crossbow since he didn't have as much time to practice. now that he has more time he wants to buy another compound since he enjoyed the compound more

crossbows might depress compound sales for a while but right now there are probably more trad hunters then there were in 1975


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## Jim C (Oct 15, 2002)

Free Range said:


> And you cannot answer a question, it has been demonstrated over and over that you have no interest in a real debate, perhaps because you know you have no grounds, or maybe because you know you lack the talent.



Horsepoop-I have answered the same for 30 years while you and your ilk don't have the honesty to admit that all your nonsense is a pretext for selfishness

what is there to debate

we want choice and our choice doesn't hurt anyone
you don't want choice because you are greedy and you have no evidence that choice hurts anyone


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## thesource (May 19, 2005)

twogun said:


> My position is now and has always been that simply opposing crossbow expansion or use does not make someone an anti-hunter. On the other hand, if in your opposition you bash decent, honest, ethical, "Fair Chase" hunters to simply further you agenda then you are infact acting as an anti-hunter.


Bull crap. I do not consider crossbows in bowseason to be ethical (unless they really don't know any better. I figure within a year or two they should realize that they aren't really bowhunting at all), therefore your qualifying statements do not apply.

Even if they did - you are way off base. Antihunters want to stop you from hunting...I WANT you to hunt - with a real bow, if you are planning on hunting in bowseason.

The hunter bashing bullcrap is even further off base. Every mechanical head owner or Matthews owner would be screaming antihunter if bashing was the only metric....its not. You are just being a baby.


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## thesource (May 19, 2005)

Jim C said:


> crossbows might depress compound sales for a while but right now there are probably more trad hunters then there were in 1975


That has NOTHING to do with crossbows.....why would it? Crossbow shooters need not even know how to shoot a real bow to exercise their craft. All they need is the basic gun training.


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## Jim C (Oct 15, 2002)

thesource said:


> Bull crap. I do not consider crossbows in bowseason to be ethical (unless they really don't know any better. I figure within a year or two they should realize that they aren't really bowhunting at all), therefore your qualifying statements do not apply.
> 
> Even if they did - you are way off base. Antihunters want to stop you from hunting...I WANT you to hunt - with a real bow, if you are planning on hunting in bowseason.
> 
> The hunter bashing bullcrap is even further off base. Every mechanical head owner or Matthews owner would be screaming antihunter if bashing was the only metric....its not. You are just being a baby.



the obsession continues-why are you so worried about what sort of bow another man uses in bow season? that you have mental issues that causes you to worry about others and claim they pollute your season. then you claim xbows are being crammed down your throat which is both a stupid lie but demonstrates rather frightening levels of paranoia


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## Jim C (Oct 15, 2002)

thesource said:


> That has NOTHING to do with crossbows.....why would it? Crossbow shooters need not even know how to shoot a real bow to exercise their craft. All they need is the basic gun training.


you are lying again but I tire of educating you since you clearly would rather lie than deal with the truth.


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## thesource (May 19, 2005)

Jim C said:


> you are lying again but I tire of educating you since you clearly would rather lie than deal with the truth.


Educate? Don't you mean indoctrinate?

You are obviously only concerned about pumping crossbows and expanding your radical crossbow agenda.

You know what I said is true. Here, I'll say it aagain for you....

*Crossbow shooters need not even know how to shoot a real bow to exercise their craft. All they need is the basic gun training.*


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## willie (Jul 2, 2003)

twogun said:


> _Now back to our regularly scheduled programming._
> 
> 
> Pope and Young's position:
> ...



Just two years before that G. Fred Asbell at the First National Bowhunter Conference on why P & Y chose 65% let off - "The Pope and Young Club chose the 65% let-off as the maximum allowable for compound bows. The intent was to set a limit, beyond which a bow departed from being a hand-held, hand-drawn weapon that enjoyed primitive status. 

But, it also seemed foolish to attempt to turn back the clock, and to disallow what everyone was already shooting. At the time of the Pope and Young Club fair chase amendment, 65% let-off was the upper edge of what was being manufactured and sold on a large scale. A few bows were being offered above that level, although most were experimental. 

We became aware that some were experimenting with let-offs above 90% (which were felt at that time to be akin to a vertically held crossbow.) A majority of the compound bows being manufactured and sold at that time were below 65%. This is where the Pope and Young Club decided to draw a line." 

So much for drawing a line. It came down to - we are not geteting enough entries and their $25..


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## Jim C (Oct 15, 2002)

thesource said:


> Educate? Don't you mean indoctrinate?
> 
> You are obviously only concerned about pumping crossbows and expanding your radical crossbow agenda.
> 
> ...


since you have no knowledge of shooting a bow or a crossbow I can call you a liar again and know I am right

the radical agenda is your selfish agenda based on clear mental issues

radical -you need to learn what the term means-crossbow archers are following exactly what compound advocates did a few decades ago

you aren't a radical-you are a reactionary because you are retreading the same reactive nonsense that was thrown at compounds thirty years ago

THOSE WHO DO NOT STUDY HISTORY ARE DOOMED TO REPEAT IT


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## thesource (May 19, 2005)

Jim C said:


> since you have no knowledge of shooting a bow or a crossbow I can call you a liar again and know I am right


Yea, yea.

I'm handing it to you so you try to play the "liar" card.

Too bad. I am a bowhunter, and a successful one. I do not give a flying turd if you believe it or not. You are nowhere near as clever as you purport yourself to be, everyone sees through you and Wil-Lies charade of character assination and defamation trying to protect your little piece of turf (with the noticeable exception of DougK (love bowhunting, or whatever his current carnation is).)

You want to play the game - play it head to head....or be considered a panty wearing girlie girl. (Wait - you hunt with a crossbow - that is redundant - LOL)


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## fasst (Oct 1, 2004)

Ok....if you can't play nice, don't play at all. The name calling and personal attacks are getting old.


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