# Are the Coach Credentials being abused?



## XForce Girl (Feb 14, 2008)

Seems anyone can purchase them for the national events, 

Why is it that to be an actual coach through USA Archery you must have completed Safe Sport and a background check, Yet anyone can purchase coach credentials for events.


I have a real issue with this partly because I cannot always accompany my shooters to events. Almost everytime, there are several people "coaching" her opponents while on the shooting line.

Telling them where to aim and how to shoot in the wind. 

Usually they are simply the parents of the shooters, but they often get loud and obnoxious and don't stay behind the waiting line like they are supposed to.

I have encouraged my shooters to complain if this becomes an issue but they are hesitant to do so.

At Outdoor Nationals last year, one of my shooters had about 9 adults directly behind him while he was shooting. 
I don't think USA Archery can effectively police these credentials, which are supposed to be one per archer.


What do you all think?


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## Cephas (Sep 7, 2010)

Seems like there are many buying the credential and treating it like a box seat at the stadium. The area should be for archers and coaches only. Second year in a row we've had someone yell at the moment the daughter was releasing on a critical shot from under the tent.


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## XForce Girl (Feb 14, 2008)

Cephas said:


> Seems like there are many buying the credential and treating it like a box seat at the stadium. The area should be for archers and coaches only. Second year in a row we've had someone yell at the moment the daughter was releasing on a critical shot from under the tent.


Well according to the rules, an archer can make a complaint and have that "coach" removed if they are being disruptive.
Now that I know it's going on, I won't put up with it in the future. 

I really hate that they don't have to be Background checked or do Safesport like real coaches. But yet have access to the shooters on the line.


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## RickBac (Sep 18, 2011)

I saw few at the AZ Cup used as a way to sit with their archer. No coaching was being done.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

The abuse with these credentials is rampant.

We also need to police the competitors after they have completed their matches - to leave the field. Last year, one of my students was shooting against a competitor from a large "recognized" program. We were down the the last 8, so most of the other competitor's friends were out, and they all ganged up directly behind her to cheer her on. Two other coaches from that program also came up, so that there were about 8 or 9 people "cheering" for this archer at the waiting line. 

For my archer, it was just me and them although I easily could have asked 5 more of my JOAD kids to come cheer for them too. I asked a judge to "clear the line" next to me, and finally they stepped in an told all those archers to leave the field, and only one coach was allowed per archer. By then, the match was nearly completed though.

It was a very poor example of sportsmanship on the part of two of these well-recognized and often celebrated coaches, and about 6 of their students.

The control of participants and coaches on the field of play never used to be a problem. I recall in 2006-2007 that JOAD Nationals was pretty civil. But now we have so-called "teams" of young archers all dressed to the hilt and cheering for their friends and against their friend's opponents. We also have coaches who cannot contain themselves. Things are getting out of hand.

I commend the judges in Ohio last year - and Sheri Rhodes - who made an announcement several times (although many chose to ignore it) that once an archer had completed their matches, they were expected to leave the field and join the spectators behind the spectator line. They also announced one coach per archer, but it was too little too late.

I hope they make this more well known this year. If they don't get on top of this behavior soon, it's going to get completely out of hand.

John


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## Cephas (Sep 7, 2010)

I don't think we should have to get an L1 or L2 to get a credential either. Will international coaches have to do the same to get one? What if we don't do NTS?


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## olympics84 (Nov 5, 2004)

Plus now they have the opportunity to tamper with equipment...


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## XForce Girl (Feb 14, 2008)

Cephas said:


> I don't think we should have to get an L1 or L2 to get a credential either. Will international coaches have to do the same to get one? What if we don't do NTS?


Is this the case? I thought we did have to be a least a L1 but someone told me that isn't the case. Anyone can purchase credentials as long as they are a USA Archery member in good standing.


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## Cephas (Sep 7, 2010)

What stinks is that if there is a disruptions during the a shoot off there is really no recourse. A warning is given but by then it is moot. 

Coaches have access to the shooters line but are not allowed to interact with any archer but their own.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

> What stinks is that if there is a disruptions during the a shoot off there is really no recourse. A warning is given but by then it is moot.


Yup. Every time. And once the damage is done, all you'll get is a half-hearted apology, if even that.


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## Cephas (Sep 7, 2010)

No it's not the case right now, anyone can get get the credential if they pay the fee. I'd like it to stay that way. But the rules need to be enforced too, one coach per archer.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

I have no problem with a certified coach getting a credential, but I don't know why we should have to pay for them. We have already paid our coaching fees and most of us donate 100's of hours a year to benefit USArchery and it's members. All that should have to happen is we display a card that shows our coaching credential on it. Just shrink down the certificate to a business card size, then wear it.

Problem solved.

As for the parents, I can see the desire to buy a credential so one can sit with their archer, but what other sport allows parents on the sidelines? Are parents in the dugout at the baseball games? No.

If a parent wants to be on the line with their kid, just get a L2 cert. It's not that hard and they just might learn something in the process. Otherwise, watch from behind the ropes, just like parents do at junior golf and nearly every single other junior sports event.


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## dchan (Jun 29, 2004)

In California the clubs that were hosting events were actually telling the athletes that the coach had to be a L3. L1 and L2 certs were not allowed to purchase a coach pass.

I think it needs to be a case by case basis. Just because a coach is not USA archer certified, does not mean the coach is not qualified. If it's the athlete's personal choice for a coach,and if they are following the rules, being respectful, etc they should be allowed IMO. I agree the rules need to be really well enforced otherwise they will be abused.

In a way it could be enforced with the "code of conduct" document as well. This should apply to all athletes and coaches.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

I hear what you're saying, but we can't enforce the rules we have. If it's done on a "case by case" basis, then how do you enforce that?


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## Mulcade (Aug 31, 2007)

I was shooting with the Aggie team here a few weeks ago and made a suggestion to Bil Coady when the members of the team started having problems remembering to come off the line after shooting. I said he should either start deducting points or walk around with an arrow to whack them on the back of their legs. Surprisingly, he thought the first idea had more merit than the second. :wink:

My point is that perhaps USAA should create a policy that would allow for the deducting of points from the archer when warnings are not heeded. Generally, I'm against punishing another for the mistakes of one, but having the potential to cost your archer a win would have great weight in changing behavior.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

That puts a lot of responsibility on our volunteer judges to clearly identify a violation.


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## XForce Girl (Feb 14, 2008)

some of the judges at outdoors were nothing more than police at times.

While standing close to the fence line, a judge came up because they had gotten a complaint about some girls hanging around and bothering the cadet boys while they were shooting. I saw the girls and knew who they were but really, do judges need to take their time and police these types of issues? I think not.
These girls had been warned and chose to ignore the warnings. This is not what our judges should be doing. The adults and coaches need to police themselves and their shooters to good sportsmanship.

I think a lot of folks abuse the privilege of coach credentials. I for one will not be afraid to speak up if I see some of these coaches pushing the boundaries of their duties.


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## Mulcade (Aug 31, 2007)

It does, but it also gives them some teeth. I mean, if the "coach's" behavior is causing other archers on the line to lose points, it's not outside the realm of logical to have them cost their own archer points as well.


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## dchan (Jun 29, 2004)

limbwalker said:


> I hear what you're saying, but we can't enforce the rules we have. If it's done on a "case by case" basis, then how do you enforce that?


I was thinking about "case by case" being applied to the "non certified" coaches or international coaches that really are good coaches getting them permission to stand with their athlete. Not "case by case" for rules..

And Agreed we need to find some way to truly enforce the rules we already have.

Maybe a free or nominal one time fee that gives a person the "credentials" to be allowed on the coaching line with their designated athlete or club. Credentials to be given to a person after a written or some practical "test" and maybe at least one or two references from certified coaches. They would then hopefully know and understand the "rules" and be held accountable to them.


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## dchan (Jun 29, 2004)

xforce girl said:


> this is not what our judges should be doing.* the adults and coaches need to police themselves and their shooters to good sportsmanship.*
> 
> i think a lot of folks abuse the privilege of coach credentials. I for one will not be afraid to speak up if i see some of these coaches pushing the boundaries of their duties.


this +1


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

> coaches that really are good coaches


I don't particularly want to see some within USArchery decide who is or isn't a "really good coach." I already have enough of an issue with the NON-merit based certification approach we use now.


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## Moebow (Jul 8, 2010)

How about issuing ONE "coach's pass" to each participant in their registration package? They in turn give that ONE pass to the "person" of their choice. That would make the "one coach per shooter" simple and end folks just buying passes for proximity purposes. Just a thought.

Arne


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## XForce Girl (Feb 14, 2008)

Moebow said:


> How about issuing ONE "coach's pass" to each participant in their registration package? They in turn give that ONE pass to the "person" of their choice. That would make the "one coach per shooter" simple and end folks just buying passes for proximity purposes. Just a thought.
> 
> Arne


I like that, but USA Archery will still want their $20


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## Serious Fun (May 12, 2003)

RickBac said:


> I saw few at the AZ Cup used as a way to sit with their archer. No coaching was being done.


Its humorous but sad.
Parents, family, coaches, instructors and club leaders pass credentials around or wear expired coach credentials backwards. When confronted and corrected, they would drift out of the archers area until I have moved on and then drift back in. Watching the dance is almost comical. I feel bad for the few that follow the rules, they are considered fools by the rules breakers for following the rules. A sad circumstance for a sport that depends on integrity. Members that have agreed to the code of ethics don’t think the rules are meant for them. Yet they will be the first to cry foul when someone else break the rules when it effects them. Maybe the solution is to raise the entry fee to pay for a huge archers area with access, chairs, tents and bottled water for everyone.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Glad to see that post Bob because it's spot-on.

Fact is, there is a large contingent within USArchery ranks (parents, coaches, archers and even sometimes officials and staff) who believe they are above the rules. I'm one of those rule followers who would be considered a fool by the rule breakers. I may protest loudly, but I do follow the rules sometimes to a fault. 

I'm very glad you are seeing the same thing I and many others are seeing. It seems that there has become a "club" that one either fits in, or does not, within USArchery. If one is "in" then it really doesn't matter how they behave or what they do, nobody corrects them. If one is "out" then they are ostracized. It's been this way for a while now. We all know who most of the players are. 

I think it's high time USArchery start to crack down on this. With penalties, as Kevin suggested. Penalize a few "known" rule-breakers and then we'll see some changes. Otherwise, it's only going to get worse. It's barely even tolerable now.

If there is any question about who should be put in charge of enforcing these rules, there shouldn't be. Jane Johnson would come down hard and without prejudice and I would put her in charge of matters such as this at any event I could.


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## RickBac (Sep 18, 2011)

Education is the key at local events. We continually remind parents they are not allowed to just stand at the waiting line unless they are coaching or spotting for their archer. Our archers know they need to let their competitors compete without disrupting them. Our clubs do a good job keeping this in check.

At the Cup there were several people going through the crowd to make sure they had proper credentials. I was asked twice to see mine.


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## Matt Z (Jul 22, 2003)

Can it be assigned on a club basis? Can the club president identify who coaches are and who receives credentials each year (not event). It's the coach's responsibility to bring the credential with them and sign in at the event with identification vs. buying it on an as needed basis?


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## Serious Fun (May 12, 2003)

RickBac said:


> Education is the key at local events. We continually remind parents they are not allowed to just stand at the waiting line unless they are coaching or spotting for their archer. Our archers know they need to let their competitors compete without disrupting them. Our clubs do a good job keeping this in check.
> 
> At the Cup there were several people going through the crowd to make sure they had proper credentials. I was asked twice to see mine.


 A photo on the credential would be helpful since there are to many coaches to be able to recognize them all. What I worry about is having judges distracted with coach credentials compliance instead of taking care of the actual competition and a meaningful outcome.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Serious Fun said:


> A photo on the credential would be helpful since there are to many coaches to be able to recognize them all.


Why couldn't every L2 or above coach receive their coaching credential (with photo)? Might be handy to show a parent or prospective club member, or a member of the media covering a local event. 

We need to think beyond "crowd control" at Natioanls or other USAT events here. There are a lot of reasons a certified USArchery coach should have something tangible they can show people when asked.


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## Supermag1 (Jun 11, 2009)

USA Archery already has the "Range Pass" program that doesn't require Lvl 1 or any other certification but does require a membership, background check and SafeSport training (costs nothing), why aren't they using that as a gateway to getting credentials?


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## Jim C (Oct 15, 2002)

years ago, at the 2005 JOAD nationals in Orlando florida, I was told that I (a level 2 and NFAA Master at the time) could not come up to the line to coach my archer (Melissa Ash who made the Cadet slot of JR USAT that year) but Lloyd Brown could since he was a national coach. SO I said to Neil Foster who was the DOS that I was filing a protest with both the jury and the USOC. Bob Pian was there and quickly interceded and noted that since EACH ARCHER had to be treated equally that meant that each archer had to have the same access to coaching. So that problem was quickly resolved and btw my girl thrashed the kid Lloyd was coaching (and I note Lloyd agreed with my point)

be the coach a level IV, an "elite" coach or someone without credentials (some coaches I know who have NO "credentials" are far better coaches than some with "elite status") each archer should have the absolute right to have the coach of their choice with them. 

as to crap like bullying, well if anyone was at the 2007 nationals in Chula-the first year of the JDT and remembers the match featuring the late Rick White's student Brittany Sonke shooting against a JDT local and how Brittany was subjected to JDT kids banging on cans and screaming when she was at full draw with the judges doing nothing, you'd be a bit more sensitive to this as I am. I had a long talk with the USA president at that time and with some others whom I respected. 

so to answer this

each archer should have the absolute right to determine who coaches them and the archers have to be treated equally 

and the judges need to make sure that each archer has the ability to compete fairly without being subjected to what would be called a gang attack


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## Jim C (Oct 15, 2002)

Supermag1 said:


> USA Archery already has the "Range Pass" program that doesn't require Lvl 1 or any other certification but does require a membership, background check and SafeSport training (costs nothing), why aren't they using that as a gateway to getting credentials?


I can understand (its all driven by insurance anyway) why people who are holding themselves out as credentialed USA coaches have safe sport, BGC etc.

but a mom or an archer's uncle who is not holding himself out as a coach but coaches a family member-I don't think so


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Great points Jim. The voice of experience.


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## AngelRa (Nov 15, 2010)

I am one of those people that sit in the shade.

Do not judge without knowing. Coaching can be subtle, looks, expression, smile, hand signals, body posture, to anybody else it may look that the coach is just sitting there, enjoying the shade and free water.

Background checks? ridiculous! you do not need to be certified, a coach is anybody that knows how that shooter performs in practice and can spot when something is out of place.

This stiff attitude can only hurt the sport, relax and let people enjoy.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

I didn't see anyone judging those who quietly sat in the shade. We could probably use more of those.


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## Jim C (Oct 15, 2002)

limbwalker said:


> I didn't see anyone judging those who quietly sat in the shade. We could probably use more of those.


yeah the quiet part is especially appealing to me


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## XForce Girl (Feb 14, 2008)

USA Archery stresses that coaches L2 and up need to be BGC and complete safesport.
Why are they so lax on who has access to the kids on the field?

I wasn't complaining about the "quiet coaches" enjoying the shade.
I was referring to the ones who gang up behind an archer with the intent to intimidate or bully them.
The ones who loudly bark out directions from the line to their archer because they apparently need someone to tell them where to aim in the wind.

The ones who make a spectacle of themselves and are generally disruptive.
I'm one of the rule following fools. I would feel terrible if my actions or one if my archers caused another to not do their best.
Bottom line is the credentials do get abused and the abusers know who they are and so do the officials.
If they enforced the policy and made an example of those few, I think things would calm down for a while.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

> the credentials do get abused and the abusers know who they are and so do the officials.


Yea, because in many cases they are long-time friends.



> If they enforced the policy and made an example of those few, I think things would calm down for a while.


But they won't in many cases because, again, they are long-time friends, or the abusers are friends of the staff.

The organization may have 8K members, but make no mistake about it, there are about 30 who seem to be able to do whatever they want. Until this culture changes, we won't see any change at the events.

Again, someone like Jane Johnson could stop this in a day. Great thing about her is she doesn't give a rat's patoot who someone is. If they are breaking the rule or making an idiot of themselves, she will take care of it, stat. And everyone will do what she says.

We need about 20 Jane Johnson's at our major events IMO.


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## luckycharlie (Nov 29, 2010)

My son experienced the gang support for his competitor at Nationals outdoor last year. Fortunately he switched to shooting before his competitor which reduced the distraction of 10 team mates scream in support.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

> distraction of 10 *team mates*


This is what I'm talking about.

If we had REAL teams in JOAD, then that would be different. But we don't. We have these make-believe "teams" floating around the country and I put it on the coaches of those so-called "teams" to sit their archers down and tell them how the should behave at these events. This is what I do. You won't catch my archers ganging up to "support" their "team mate." They may cheer for them from behind the spectator line, but if they get too loud or are cheering while the other archer is shooting, I'll be the first one to turn around and give them the "shut it!" sign. They know that.

I'm all for cheering for one's friends or ACTUAL teammates, when it's appropriate. Team rounds are a perfect time for this. It is expected. But too often we have coaches that are just standing there allowing their students to gang up behind one of their archers. The worst example of this is when multiple coaches from the same program, or friends of one another, gang up behind a single archer. This should never happen. Esp. when it's a coach who's received "*coach of the year*" honors by USArchery and another who was not only the manager of a US international team, but a *USArchery board member* at the time! 

That "team manager" was so vocal, they were the reason I finally sought out a judge to make them leave. And I wish I had a video of their reaction to the judge's directions. It was a perfect example of how some really believe they are above the rules. Thankfully that judge stood their ground and made the 2nd and 3rd coaches leave. BTW, this happened to my daughter in Ohio this past year, and may well lead to her not wanting to attend Nationals anymore. That's her decision, but if that's what she decides, I'll put the blame squarely on those coaches for the way she feels. And this is just one of many cases like this. 

Bad behavior at these major events takes it's toll on many of our less experienced archers. Particularly those who are not yet comfortable in a big competition setting. Some folks just don't get that at all. Archery is a pretty safe place for many kids and families who are just not comfortable with high intensity contact sports or loud team sports. We cannot protect every kid from obnoxious people, but we can do our best to try and make our events fair, positive life experiences.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Regarding that team manager and former board member, that was not the first time I've seen that behavior from them. I've observed the same behavior since JOAD Nationals in 2006.


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## iArch (Apr 17, 2015)

Competitors from other sports have to deal with these issues as well, but in bigger numbers. Basketball, tennis, soccer, volleyball, and many more. Sports that travel and compete against full teams have to deal with more unruly teammates, coaches, and parents. Compared to those environments, the archery coaches and 9-person-team distractions being discussed here don't seem like abuse. Seems to me like it's up to the athlete to deal with it. Polite suggestions to enforce rules and etiquette are fine, but limiting coaching access (via certification and credentials, etc) to deal with the issue isn't necessary. Let the athletes pick who makes them feel comfortable on the line.


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## Mulcade (Aug 31, 2007)

limbwalker said:


> Again, someone like Jane Johnson could stop this in a day. Great thing about her is she doesn't give a rat's patoot who someone is. If they are breaking the rule or making an idiot of themselves, she will take care of it, stat. And everyone will do what she says.
> 
> We need about 20 Jane Johnson's at our major events IMO.


Agreed and this is why we love her. I wonder if we could get her to spend a week at the USAA offices to get the leadership all sorted out and back on track?


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## Beastmaster (Jan 20, 2009)

luckycharlie said:


> My son experienced the gang support for his competitor at Nationals outdoor last year. Fortunately he switched to shooting before his competitor which reduced the distraction of 10 team mates scream in support.


What really shut down the gang support was your son out shooting his competitor.

Nothing speaks louder than your score...


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## XForce Girl (Feb 14, 2008)

iArch said:


> Competitors from other sports have to deal with these issues as well, but in bigger numbers. Basketball, tennis, soccer, volleyball, and many more. Sports that travel and compete against full teams have to deal with more unruly teammates, coaches, and parents. Compared to those environments, the archery coaches and 9-person-team distractions being discussed here don't seem like abuse. Seems to me like it's up to the athlete to deal with it. Polite suggestions to enforce rules and etiquette are fine, but limiting coaching access (via certification and credentials, etc) to deal with the issue isn't necessary. Let the athletes pick who makes them feel comfortable on the line.


I agree that the archers should be able to deal with a certain amount of distractions and noise. But, Archery is not Basketball, Tennis, Soccer Etc. Archery demands a certain amount of focus and concentration. And, when the spectators who are allowed into the archer area via a $20 card and lanyard Intentionally gang up behind an archer or heckle them from the lines, that is just wrong. There are so many "games" they play to try and give their shooter an advantage it is ridiculous.

None of those other sports you mentioned allow spectators on the field of play, and seriously, many of these "coaches" are nothing more than parents who want a closer look and to be able to sit in the shade with their kid, hold their hand and comfort them. Yes, they do need to have credentials, sorry but in this day and age we cannot let just anybody on the field and have access to children.

I do not know Jane Johnson as others have mentioned but, I would love to meet her and I'm sure I would love her too.


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## BobCo19-65 (Sep 4, 2009)

Yea I agree, can't necessary control all that much behind the audience line. It's what is in front of it. Not even cell phone are allowed in front of the audience line. Why should the type of behavior mentioned be allowed.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

iarch, archery, like golf, is considered a sport of discipline and character. There are times when it's appropriate to yell and cheer, and there are times when it's not. And yes, a good coach will help prepare their archer for distractions, but these are kids. And any kid is going to feel outnumbered when their opponent has 8 or 9 kids in the same "team jersey" yelling and cheering for them, or worse, 2 or 3 coaches in that same jersey, standing right behind their opponent. 

This is another case of those who follow the rules get screwed, and those who don't look at those who do, as fools.

John


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

I saw this coming when we started seeing the JDT jerseys show up at Nationals and other major events. I called it then. Now it's spreading. It's only going to get worse folks.

These kids (and a few of their coaches and parents) will turn it into the Jr. High playground if they can. It's up to the adults on the field to keep it under control.


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## iArch (Apr 17, 2015)

XForce Girl said:


> Archery is not Basketball, Tennis, Soccer Etc. Archery demands a certain amount of focus and concentration.


So shooting a free throw at the line, serving a tennis ball, penalty kicks, and serving a volley ball all don't require a certain amount of focus and concentration? LOL



XForce Girl said:


> And, when the spectators who are allowed into the archer area via a $20 card and lanyard Intentionally gang up behind an archer or heckle them from the lines, that is just wrong. There are so many "games" they play to try and give their shooter an advantage it is ridiculous


The other sports have the same amount (if not more) jeering as well. I've competed in some of those sports. I know what it's like. I can agree with your field of play statement, but proximity wise, the other sports can have similar distance to spectators. There are many times in those sports where the athletes are near the 'boundaries' of field of play, getting ready for their shot and gathering focus...that's when they will be right next to the spectators.



XForce Girl said:


> many of these "coaches" are nothing more than parents who want a closer look and to be able to sit in the shade with their kid, hold their hand and comfort them. Yes, they do need to have credentials, sorry but in this day and age we cannot let just anybody on the field and have access to children.


Comforting can be viewed as coaching too. If the kid does better with someone beside them, isn't that what coaches do? Help performance? I don't mind having background checks for anyone having access to the line. Maybe line/coaching etiquette certification would be more reasonable, but required coach certification is overkill.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

> I do not know Jane Johnson as others have mentioned but, I would love to meet her and I'm sure I would love her too.


You would love her. Firm but fair. Every time. She's the conscience of the former NAA and has trained a lot of great officials over her career. She's also the reason we have a "3 meter line."  Ask her about that one someday. It's a great story.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

iArch said:


> So shooting a free throw at the line, serving a tennis ball, penalty kicks, and serving a volley ball all don't require a certain amount of focus and concentration? LOL
> 
> 
> The other sports have the same amount (if not more) jeering as well. I've competed in some of those sports. I know what it's like. I can agree with your field of play statement, but proximity wise, the other sports can have similar distance to spectators. There are many times in those sports where the athletes are near the 'boundaries' of field of play, getting ready for their shot and gathering focus...that's when they will be right next to the spectators.
> ...


Iarch, you're fairly new to this sport, and haven't coached kids at a major event, I would guess. I played a lot of sports growing up. Including some you used as examples. There is a time and place for it. And there's a reason we have rules. All many of us are expecting is that the rules are enforced and that coaches and archers follow them.


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## iArch (Apr 17, 2015)

limbwalker said:


> iarch, archery, like golf, is considered a sport of discipline and character. There are times when it's appropriate to yell and cheer, and there are times when it's not. And yes, a good coach will help prepare their archer for distractions, but these are kids. And any kid is going to feel outnumbered when their opponent has 8 or 9 kids in the same "team jersey" yelling and cheering for them, or worse, 2 or 3 coaches in that same jersey, standing right behind their opponent.
> 
> This is another case of those who follow the rules get screwed, and those who don't look at those who do, as fools.
> 
> John


Limbwalker, Tennis is also a sport of discipline and character. There are also times when it's appropriate/not appropriate to yell and cheer, and the athlete has to deal with it. It's not allowed in the rules, but it's part of the game...whether we like it or not. Yes any kid will feel outnumbered in that situation, but isn't this what sports are about? Learning how to deal with situations like these? Kids need to learn how to overcome these obstacles. They can either choose to feel defeated and outnumbered, or let it fuel them to do better and silence the noise with an X.



limbwalker said:


> Iarch, you're fairly new to this sport, and haven't coached kids at a major event, I would guess. I played a lot of sports growing up. Including some you used as examples. There is a time and place for it. And there's a reason we have rules. All many of us are expecting is that the rules are enforced and that coaches and archers follow them.


I may be new, but I don't need to have coached kids at a major event to understand discipline and what dealing with distractions feels like. I too have played a lot of sports growing up, including golf which you mentioned. Yes it would be nice to have everyone follow the rules, but that's an ideal world.


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## Warbow (Apr 18, 2006)

XForce Girl said:


> Yes, they do need to have credentials, sorry but in this day and age we cannot let just anybody on the field and have access to children.
> .


I think the primary thing actually different about "this day and age" is our level of paranoia and not increased levels of assaults on children. I think SafeSport training is a good idea for club staff, but if you watch the content you'll realize it is about preventing grooming over time and opportunities for subsequent assaults - abuse of children by people you know - not about kidnapping or assaults by strangers, the latter being vivid ideas people have in their minds but that are not the actual common danger to children. Also within the SafeSport material is the fact that 90% of pedophiles *don't have a record* and will pass a background screening. So a background screening will let 9 out of 10 pedophiles into your club or event. Relying on background screenings is 90% wrong, and is a feel good measure that makes liability insurance lawyers happy but can give clubs a false sense of security.

I don't think the lack of required SafeSport or background checks for coaches at events is a significant a deal as one might think. Instead, continue to use your training, as you do at the club, to keep kids out of situations where adults can have *private* access to them.

/2¢


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## XForce Girl (Feb 14, 2008)

iArch, I totally understand what you are saying and the stress of a large tournament can be a good thing for the kids. Learning to block out noise and distractions is part of the game.

That is not what this discussion is about and until you see it in action or one of your own kids is effected by these unsportsmanlike people, you probably will not change your opinion. 
I'm talking about literally anyone with $20 being able to go to the line and hang out in the archers area. Some of these people have no concept of the rules or proper etiquette at the event. It runs rampant and has gotten out of hand. It's disruptive to just about everyone and not necessary.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Iarch, it's funny you mention tennis, since that was one of the varsity sports I played in HS (soccer being the other). In tennis, it's expected for everyone to be silent during the serve and not too unruly during the points. The difference is that when Federer is playing, he doesn't have 4 or 6 or 8 of his coaches and friends sitting on the bench right next to the net all yelling for him inbetween points. I am sure you would agree that would not be appropriate. That's all we're saying here. Get the other kids and coaches off the line and back with the other spectators where they belong.



> That is not what this discussion is about and until you see it in action or one of your own kids is effected by these unsportsmanlike people, you probably will not change your opinion.


This is very true. Like a lot of things in life, one can only "think" what they would do or how they react until it actually happens to them or one of their kids or students.


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## J. Wesbrock (Dec 17, 2003)

Maybe it's just me, but I think heckling someone or playing head games is the epitome of poor sportsmanship and shows a complete lack of class and respect. If you can't win with your shooting then you don't deserve to win. Quite frankly, I find it very disappointing that some adults not only accept this behavior, but apparently teach and encourage it.


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## Kendric_Hubbard (Feb 5, 2015)

The problem seems to be that rules are not being enforced. I think reducing the number of coaches to archers to a 1 to 1 ratio is a good idea. I do not want to see a restriction to NTS certified coaches only.


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## Azzurri (Mar 10, 2014)

My thing is there is usually only x amount of seating and at the Az Cup during the second 36 arrows my chair disappeared and the other chairs were spoken for, I finished it out leaning on the equipment table between ends. No big deal really but the more you indulge the spectator-coach hybrid the more you put a numbers and security pressure on the athlete between-ends area, which already has plenty of people.

SoCal (which I signed up for) says non-credentialed coaches are spectators, and should a non-qualified coach be able to get the credential? I'm ok with spouse- or friend- or teammate-as-coach but they should have a minimum qualification to actually present as a coach, which involves a day, right? Otherwise the loophole and a major credit card eats the general rule and why bother. A coach should be a coach. If the event pass or coaching cred cost is too much, that strikes me as a separate deal merely coming to a head because of the access rules.

Far as behavior goes, a soccer ref can card a misbehaving fan or send them away, but if you can do something in front of a hostile crowd you can do it anywhere, and some of my favorite soccer memories are when a road or neutral crowd oooohed at something I did. I think if we want the sport growing we should encourage it in the direction of more enthusiastic but reasonable fandom. If actual archers are misbehaving I would think it would be easy to yank the choke chain on that because those in attendance would have something obvious at stake, either that meet or the next one......non-coaches in the spectator area and if an archer misbehaves as a spectator or coach they take a penalty or DQ for the event. If people are crossing lines and get punished for it, I think some punishments would end the problem. If there is no "foul," it is a sport.....


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## Kendric_Hubbard (Feb 5, 2015)

what would that minimum qualification be?


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## chrstphr (Nov 23, 2005)

Kendric_Hubbard said:


> what would that minimum qualification be?


level 1 ... which is super easy to get


and honestly,, you want to be a credentialed coach at a USAT or National championships,, then you should have a coaching cert from USA Archery. This isnt coaching a 4H tournament or school function. Its the top 4 or 5 USA Archery tournaments in the country. 

I wonder if i can just buy a coach credential for the world cup final and just show up and stand on the line as a spectator. 



Chris


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

J. Wesbrock said:


> Maybe it's just me, but I think heckling someone or playing head games is the epitome of poor sportsmanship and shows a complete lack of class and respect. If you can't win with your shooting then you don't deserve to win. Quite frankly, I find it very disappointing that some adults not only accept this behavior, but apparently teach and encourage it.


Heckling and head games are indeed poor sportsmanship, and that has happened at these events, but it is very rare. And I think those archers and coaches learned their lesson. What's happening more and more now is that folks want to "hang out" with the athletes (what other sport allows you under the same tent with Olympic athletes for $20?) or with their kids or just hang out with their friends who are still competing. The other problem is that JOAD clubs and other training programs are now being called "teams" by some (they are not), complete with "team" jerseys, and those kids and coaches want to see their "team" members win. They are ganging up around them in big matches, not necessarily to disrespect the other archer, but to support their friends or students. On the surface, there seems to be nothing wrong with this. From behind the spectator line, it's not easy to notice, and it may even appear to be a case of GOOD sportsmanship - the kids cheering on their teammate. But from the archer's perspective, it is not cool to have the person you are shooting against have 2 or 3 coaches and 7 or 8 "team mates" all within 15 feet of them while they are shooting. 

Simple crowd control and following the rules will take care of this problem.

1 archer, 1 credentialed supporter (be that coach, parent or fellow archer) ahead of the spectator line. And no throngs of screaming friends 10 feet behind them. Once an archer is out of the matches, they are a spectator unless they are there to remove equipment. This will be a change in culture from what's been done in the past, but it wasn't the problem before that it is now. So things need to be enforced.


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## Shooterdad (Apr 30, 2014)

J. Wesbrock said:


> I find it very disappointing that some adults not only accept this behavior, but apparently teach and encourage it.


I agree. And it's not just in this sport, it's in all of them, at every age level. Some parents have no business being parents.


Very interesting conversation that will help me out a lot so thanks to you guys that are contributing. My daughter will be shooting at her first competition this summer. I have no idea what to expect.


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## Warbow (Apr 18, 2006)

chrstphr said:


> level 1
> 
> 
> Chris


Given that archer's are allowed to take instruction from anyone they want, and that person does not have to be a USA Archery coach nor use the USA Archery system, I'd say it would be unreasonable to require their coaches to spend a day to take the summer camp level course to be considered a "legitimate" coach - especially given that pretty much everyone in this thread has noted that some of the very worst behavior comes from students of coaches certified at the very highest level. Coach certs aren't the problem. :dontknow:


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## Kendric_Hubbard (Feb 5, 2015)

I agree with Warbow. I am not a certified coach, but one of my students will probably the shoot the USAT qualifiers this next year.


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## b0w_bender (Apr 30, 2006)

limbwalker said:


> I have no problem with a certified coach getting a credential, but I don't know why we should have to pay for them. We have already paid our coaching fees and most of us donate 100's of hours a year to benefit USArchery and it's members. All that should have to happen is we display a card that shows our coaching credential on it. Just shrink down the certificate to a business card size, then wear it.
> 
> Problem solved.
> 
> ...


absolutely!


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## Cephas (Sep 7, 2010)

Agree wholeheartedly with this. In our situation this year the opponent had a large contingent behind her from their club in addition to the coach on the line. The opponent shot first, there was cheering then silence. Just as the daughter was releasing 5-7 seconds later one of the men under the tent yelled out a loud noise, not even an intelligible word. The club is a very prominent one from the west coast and to me it was inexcusable considering the supposed 'elite' nature of the club and the level of tournament experience they have.


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## chrstphr (Nov 23, 2005)

Warbow said:


> Given that archer's are allowed to take instruction from anyone they want, and that person does not have to be a USA Archery coach nor use the USA Archery system, I'd say it would be unreasonable to require their coaches to spend a day to take the summer camp level course to be considered a "legitimate" coach - especially given that pretty much everyone in this thread has noted that some of the very worst behavior comes from students of coaches certified at the very highest level. Coach certs aren't the problem. :dontknow:


so i guess i can go to he Olympics as a credentialed coach, since any archer can have anyone as a coach on the line. All i need is for one archer to name me as his / her coach. 

If i make the team, i guess i choose my wife, so she can go to the Olympics with me. 

I remember Bella Korolyi had to sit in the stands as a coach while his gymnast won olympic medals because he was not accredited for the event. He coached Mary Lou Retton and she kept going to the stands to hug him when she won. 

US Nationals arent the Olympics, but they arent a JOAD achievement pin shoot either. 

We have to get over this political correctness of allowing everyone the right to everything. Not everyone should be a credentialed coach, archers arent going to be crushed if their personal coach cant be on the line, but is in the spectator stands 15 feet away. 

I know Jay Barrs had a different personal coach, but when he went to Seoul in 1988, he had an Olympic coach. He didnt exercise his "right" to have his coach. And his personal coach was not on the line with him. 



Chris


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## Beastmaster (Jan 20, 2009)

At the 2014 Outdoor Nationals, I had the pleasure of being both a judge and a line coach during the JOAD medal rounds.

From a judge perspective, I spent more time keeping errant parents at bay than I did as a judge. One example - in the second day of the 72 arrow ranking round, poor Brian Bullis and John Klus (both shooting Cub Recurve at that time) were paired with two kids from Southern California who basically were told by their parents (who did NOT have credentials) to remove Brian and John's scopes and toss them away - literally.

First - I had to restore order. I booted the parents out to the spectator line.
Second - I told the 4 kids to work it out...without the parents. (The kids did work it out...)
Third - I went back to the parents, and told them in no uncertain terms that they are to stay behind the spectator line or get ejected.

Now, this is where I get really pissed off. Both parents (Oriental) start pulling this crap of "I don't speak English" by speaking their native language to my face. So - I told them in no uncertain terms that this is a Star FITA event. This is being run under World Archery rules. Therefore, English is the language of the tournament. If they didn't understand English, it's not my problem and they better grow a universal translator right there and then. If they crossed the spectator line, I would escort them out of the park. If they interfered with the other archers (John and Brian), I would escort them out of the park. 

And, if they wanted to protest my actions, I handed them extra programs (which had a protest form), I gave them each a pen, and I said that the protest fee from each would be 50 dollars in cash. I also said that both I and my fellow judges would love the beer money if they did the protest. I took their pictures so I could add it to my notes, and I walked back to my station.

I never had issues from either for the rest of the tournament. (And for those who know me - the irony is huge, especially considering my genetic background).

Regarding the medal rounds - I worked as a judge all the way to that odd Saturday Semi-Final Rounds that ended at 9:30pm. Since there was only the Gold/Bronze matches, I was told that they only needed two judges (Terry and Diana LaBeau worked the Medal Rounds), and I could revert to being a coach.

Rain and lightning delayed the tournament start on Sunday. It enabled me to line coach my son (Gold Medal match) and my son's friend from the same club (Bronze Medal match). Gold/Bronze matches were not being done at the same time, so I could do both.

The Bronze Medal match was exactly like LuckyCharlie said - his son's opponent gathered a ton of their teammates who all sat in the archer's seating area and created a ton of noise to cheer on their archer. 

There are some funny things about noise. If you don't train with it, you don't know how to handle it. My son and his friend train with noise all the time - whether it's loud background music with songs they don't like, to having members of the opposite gender teasing them every way that's legally and safely possible. So, LuckyCharlie's son handled the noise perfectly fine. 

His opponent didn't. His shot process broke down. And that's why he took 4th.

So, noise can work against you.


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## J. Wesbrock (Dec 17, 2003)

Shooterdad said:


> I agree. And it's not just in this sport, it's in all of them, at every age level. Some parents have no business being parents.
> 
> 
> Very interesting conversation that will help me out a lot so thanks to you guys that are contributing. My daughter will be shooting at her first competition this summer. I have no idea what to expect.


My daughter played softball for several years. The coaches were great, but some of the parents were way out of control. I thought two mothers were going to get in a fist fight one day. It got so bad at one point the league president started handing out letters to remind people that they could and would be banned if things didn't improve.

Anyway, I guess I like how NFAA handles this at Louisville. Unless you're an archer or are requested to help by one of the judges, you have no business in the archers' area. No coaches, no parents, no team mates, no exceptions.


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## Beastmaster (Jan 20, 2009)

Kendric_Hubbard said:


> I do not want to see a restriction to NTS certified coaches only.



You won't.

There are a ton of coaches that are not NTS coaches, but are still in USA Archery's coaching list. Guys like Rick McKinney, Alexander Kirilov and Dick Tone are some that come to mind that aren't NTS coaches, but are still very active.


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## midwayarcherywi (Sep 24, 2006)

J. Wesbrock said:


> My daughter played softball for several years. The coaches were great, but some of the parents were way out of control. I thought two mothers were going to get in a fist fight one day. It got so bad at one point the league president started handing out letters to remind people that they could and would be banned if things didn't improve.
> 
> Anyway, I guess I like how NFAA handles this at Louisville. Unless you're an archer or are requested to help by one of the judges, you have no business in the archers' area. No coaches, no parents, no team mates, no exceptions.


I think that is a policy I could support. There just isn't any need to have a coach in the archers area. You can coach just fine from the spectator seats.

At last years Outdoor Nationals, I think I was buried pretty deep in the spectator area when my son shot his OR matches. I saw all his shots and was able to give him effective feedback when he wanted it.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

> And for those who know me - the irony is huge, especially considering my genetic background


That's what I was thinking. Great story, and thanks for your service to the archery community. I would almost guarantee you those women's kids appreciated it too. 

And yes, noise and extra "attention" can also work against an archer, even if the cheers are for them. This is why I expect my parents and archers to be back behind the specatator line when it's not their turn to shoot. You know, following the rules, blah, blah, blah. 

John


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## Cephas (Sep 7, 2010)

Agree with Warbow also, some of the least experienced coaches on the line are also the most polite and conscientious. The most egregious examples of gamesmanship I've seen come from the supposedly most experienced.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

J. Wesbrock said:


> My daughter played softball for several years. The coaches were great, but some of the parents were way out of control. I thought two mothers were going to get in a fist fight one day. It got so bad at one point the league president started handing out letters to remind people that they could and would be banned if things didn't improve.
> 
> Anyway, I guess I like how NFAA handles this at Louisville. Unless you're an archer or are requested to help by one of the judges, you have no business in the archers' area. No coaches, no parents, no team mates, no exceptions.


My daughter wanted nothing to do with softball, since we live about 2 blocks from the HS softball field and we can hear the moms (and grandmothers) screaming from inside our own living room most nights. Notice I said moms. I've never heard a dad yelling from my house.

I hate to sound sexist, but there are a number of moms that are out of control on sports fields these days. They have taken over from the out of control dads of years past. LOL.


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## Azzurri (Mar 10, 2014)

Bare level 1 or its foreign equivalent. Just like I to go to a USAA or WA event as an athlete am supposed to be a USAA member (or the judge goes to judge classes I assume), the coach to get the pass is a qualified coach even if at the lowest level. A spouse/friend/teammate could game the system by getting a level 1 just to support you with no intent to actually coach anyone (or at least others), but in the process of doing so, voila, objectively qualified coach who should be in an athlete or coaching area. Loophole closed, objective standard.


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## J. Wesbrock (Dec 17, 2003)

midwayarcherywi said:


> I think that is a policy I could support. There just isn't any need to have a coach in the archers area. You can coach just fine from the spectator seats.


There were a few JOAD coaches going up and down the spectator area helping various archers of theirs. If a kid needed something, all they had to do was walk back and talk over the little two-foot divider. It seemed to work well.


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## iArch (Apr 17, 2015)

XForce Girl said:


> until you see it in action or one of your own kids is effected by these unsportsmanlike people, you probably will not change your opinion. I'm talking about literally anyone with $20 being able to go to the line and hang out in the archers area. Some of these people have no concept of the rules or proper etiquette at the event. It runs rampant and has gotten out of hand. It's disruptive to just about everyone and not necessary.





limbwalker said:


> This is very true. Like a lot of things in life, one can only "think" what they would do or how they react until it actually happens to them or one of their kids or students.


I _have_ seen it in action, been a 'victim' of such actions, and seen my teammates and friends go through it. Just in different sports. I agree - the lack of respect for the rules and etiquette is not acceptable. I just wanted to throw another perspective out there that other athletes go through the same thing...and that it's viewed as part of the sport's challenges. 



limbwalker said:


> Iarch, it's funny you mention tennis, since that was one of the varsity sports I played in HS (soccer being the other). In tennis, it's expected for everyone to be silent during the serve and not too unruly during the points. The difference is that when Federer is playing, he doesn't have 4 or 6 or 8 of his coaches and friends sitting on the bench right next to the net all yelling for him inbetween points. I am sure you would agree that would not be appropriate.


Funny indeed. Yes I agree that yelling in between points is inappropriate, but it happens even in professional Tennis - between serves, and during serves. Even with the emphasis placed on etiquette, and no-access to the field-of-play, it still happens unfortunately. 



limbwalker said:


> That's all we're saying here. Get the other kids and coaches off the line and back with the other spectators where they belong.


I like that idea. Then all coaches should join the spectators, not just the ones without 'credentials'.


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## Warbow (Apr 18, 2006)

chrstphr said:


> so i guess i can go to he Olympics as a credentialed coach, since any archer can have anyone as a coach on the line. All i need is for one archer to name me as his / her coach.
> 
> If i make the team, i guess i choose my wife, so she can go to the Olympics with me.
> 
> ...


If you'll read my post, I didn't actually say _credentialing_ coaches is wrong, what I said was that it is unreasonable to make coaches take a summer camp level USA Archery course to be considered legit, and that USA Archery coach certifications don't actually stop people from egregious behavior, as previously noted in this thread.

Do credentialed press photographers have to take a summer camp level photography course? Of course not. Their credentialing is not based on whether they took any particular instructional course but on their professionalism and association with media outlets. What you are really talking about with credentialing is using it as barrier to entry to keep the rif raff out. And how many, exactly, overzealous helicopter parents do you think are incapable of taking an L1 course to be on the line with their kids? I'm not seeing that as solving your problem, not a sufficient barrier to entry. I'm not sure what the answer is. The coach certs don't seem to be it, though. (And the L1 is not a "coaching" cert, anyway, it's a basic instructional archery cert.)


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## Azzurri (Mar 10, 2014)

Warbow said:


> If you'll read my post, I didn't actually say _credentialing_ coaches is wrong, what I said was that it is unreasonable to make coaches take a summer camp level USA Archery course to be considered legit, and that USA Archery coach certifications don't actually stop people from egregious behavior, as previously noted in this thread.
> 
> Do credentialed press photographers have to take a summer camp level photography course? Of course not. What you are really talking about with credentialing is a barrier to entry. And how many, exactly, overzealous helicopter parents do you think are incapable of taking an L1 course to be on the line with their kids? I'm not seeing that as solving your problem, not a sufficient barrier to entry. I'm not sure what the answer is. The coach certs don't seem to be it, though.


Saying a coaching cred doesn't solve the issue because students misbehave is switching things around I think. I'm talking about whether the coach should be where they are. Not how his students are acting or where they should be. Some of the issue strikes me as, enforcing the access rules. In which case it does matter who gets access to what spaces and by what standards. If it in fact needs to be gotten under control, one way is who is a coach and at what point does an athlete done with their day get called spectator, and where do coaches and athletes-as-spectators get access.

The virtue of the paper level 1 in this context is not so much that we are testing that hard their archery know-how as that it is something more objective than say-so defining apart coach/non-coach. As it stands one can essentially buy friends and family out of the spectating area by calling them a coach. Under present rules they don't even have to be objectively a coach to do so. They just run a credit card. I just think the level 1 at least says they have gone through the motions and passed the tests and even if they could care less, are in an objectively verifiable sense a coach. In theory you could have someone verifying the coaching backgrounds of people who have strong backgrounds but not the paper backing it -- and probably should -- but requiring the paper would at least be a start of enforcing things with something to work from.

I wrote for my college paper. Colleges and pro teams often do have their own vetting of people seeking press credentials. You check out ok they let you into games free in press spaces. Until then you can buy a ticket. You don't have to have a journalism or photography degree per se but they may in fact confirm you are who you say you are and either a working freelancer/blogger or affiliated with some media outlet.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

> Then all coaches should join the spectators


I wouldn't have an issue with that during the ranking rounds. During head to head matchplay however, that's a little different. 

I'm going to be shooting at Nat's for the first time this year (been to 5 as a coach, but never as an archer), so my kids will largely be on their own - esp. during ranking. Now if I can just figure out how to keep their moms from harassing me while I shoot. LOL.

Kidding. The parents in my club are pretty well behaved by comparison. I think I've handled more "emergencies" from students of coaches who couldn't be there in the past 3 years than I have my own.


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## iArch (Apr 17, 2015)

Ranking rounds for sure. H2H I can see where that can become necessary. Rest assured, I will not be there harassing you as you shoot. Good luck.


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## Warbow (Apr 18, 2006)

Azzurri said:


> I just think the level 1 at least says they have gone through the motions and passed the tests and even if they could care less, are in an objectively verifiable sense a coach. In theory you could have someone verifying the coaching backgrounds of people who have strong backgrounds but not the paper backing it -- and probably should -- but requiring the paper would at least be a start of enforcing things with something to work from.


How about the coaching credential include having the coaches pass a test on WA rules and the USAA code of conduct - a test not about USA's coaching methods but about some things every coach at the event should have to know? (And no exceptions for USAA brass.) :dontknow:


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## Shooterdad (Apr 30, 2014)

limbwalker said:


> I hate to sound sexist, but there are a number of moms that are out of control on sports fields these days. They have taken over from the out of control dads of years past. LOL.



You are right about that. My oldest played volleyball from 7th all the way through high school. My wife and I pretty much refused to sit with most of the other parents on the teams. It was really embarrassing. The funny thing was during tournaments when her team wasn't playing the high school coach always came and sat with us because she felt respected.


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## rharper (Apr 30, 2012)

Warbow said:


> How about the coaching credential include having the coaches pass a test on WA rules and the USAA code of conduct - a test not about USA's coaching methods but about some things every coach at the event should have to know? (And no exceptions for USAA brass.) :dontknow:


I like your idea.


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## Azzurri (Mar 10, 2014)

Warbow said:


> How about the coaching credential include having the coaches pass a test on WA rules and the USAA code of conduct - a test not about USA's coaching methods but about some things every coach at the event should have to know? (And no exceptions for USAA brass.) :dontknow:


Culturally, a foreign coach wouldn't have to be a USL1 although it would suffice if they were. We could take notice that Canada or Mexico or whatever this is their minimal coaching credential. If the issue is our rules their coaches.

If the issue is what the rules should be, I think having passed a coaching test and been qualified would be the best hurdle for do you get a coaching pass at an event. USAA code of conduct is more like ethics. You could make people check box (in addition to being a coach) they have read or know the ethics rules and/or tournament rules (WA and that event) as part of the pass application process -- and then hold them to that -- but to me if you make ethics the test then we're back to self-selected coaches in the box. I'm more concerned are they actually coaches and hence that's the part I want confirmed. I don't think you can predict or catch future misbehavior by giving an ethics test. You might be able to see something from a "rap sheet." But if that was the case lawyers required to take ethics classes and tests to become barred would have been weeded out there. It might serve a purpose, however, to remind people of it as part of the packet (both to inform them and provide a basis for enforcement). Just like if people want better line etiquette I think something should go in athlete packets. Not everyone knows, but if you tell them it is then fairer to say, I reminded you of this beforehand and rules are rules.

Way to do it, to me, is you make your access and behavior rules and enforce them. One of the two red cards I ever got in soccer was when we lost a tournament semifinal and I thought the refs ripped us off. I yelled that at a ref and got a red *after the game was done*, sat for the third place game. If there are clear lines for judges and a willingness to enforce, then if there are people misbehaving, why not have conduct sanctions that would apply to their participation at that event (if continued) or the next one (if they're done). People would likely get their act together if it impacted their own advancement to H2H, or their participation in the next USAT, or the like.

Beyond that, if people are doing nothing wrong, I'd actually like to encourage enthusiasm within the rules. When people are like, how can you sell the sport, I think H2H is one of the big drama selling points. Shoots for score and quali it's a sea of people and hard to tell who is even doing what from behind the line. But why lessen the (reasonable) drama of one of the more interesting and compartmented parts of the sport? Yeah, maybe you should kick out the spectator-archer yelling at the time of the shot. Rules would be rules. But some of the other stuff.......that's sports.


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## Kendric_Hubbard (Feb 5, 2015)

That sounds like a good idea, warbow


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## Warbow (Apr 18, 2006)

Azzurri said:


> Way to do it, to me, is you make your access and behavior rules and enforce them.


There is that. And USAA needs to lead that. In the case of USAA associated coaches violating those rules, they need to be among the first to be infracted, too. Because they set the example for everyone else, good or bad.


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## JoAnn (Jul 21, 2011)

Beastmaster said:


> At the 2014 Outdoor Nationals, I had the pleasure of being both a judge and a line coach during the JOAD medal rounds.
> 
> From a judge perspective, I spent more time keeping errant parents at bay than I did as a judge. One example - in the second day of the 72 arrow ranking round, poor Brian Bullis and John Klus (both shooting Cub Recurve at that time) were paired with two kids from Southern California who basically were told by their parents (who did NOT have credentials) to remove Brian and John's scopes and toss them away - literally.
> 
> ...



what made this worse is the girls were shooting their medal matches 5 bales away and were equally distracted with the whopping and hollering like it was team rounds. No one shut down the parents or the kids. It clearly showed no respect for anyone else shooting at the same time.


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## spangler (Feb 2, 2007)

Beastmaster said:


> The Bronze Medal match was exactly like LuckyCharlie said - his son's opponent gathered a ton of their teammates who all sat in the archer's seating area and created a ton of noise to cheer on their archer.
> 
> There are some funny things about noise. If you don't train with it, you don't know how to handle it. My son and his friend train with noise all the time - whether it's loud background music with songs they don't like, to having members of the opposite gender teasing them every way that's legally and safely possible. So, LuckyCharlie's son handled the noise perfectly fine.
> 
> ...


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=otpZOP19bPs

Distraction training.


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## caspian (Jan 13, 2009)

my indoor club usually has a kid's party going most of the time on weekends - think 12-15 kids either shooting or having a party afterwards. concrete floor and steel roof industrial warehouse, zero noise absorption. 

if you can concentrate through that lot you can concentrate through pretty much anything, but that doesn't mean that archers should have to put up with deliberate attempts to disrupt them.


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## lksseven (Mar 21, 2010)

limbwalker said:


> My daughter wanted nothing to do with softball, since we live about 2 blocks from the HS softball field and we can hear the moms (and grandmothers) screaming from inside our own living room most nights. Notice I said moms. I've never heard a dad yelling from my house.
> 
> I hate to sound sexist, but there are a number of moms that are out of control on sports fields these days. They have taken over from the out of control dads of years past. LOL.


Uh-oh - that statement will be like 'the bat woman/mommy jeans signal' for SeattlePop. Get ready to duck! :icon_1_lol: 

I coached my daughter's softball team for 10 years, and saw a fair amount of poor behavior from dads as well as moms (a small % of both, to be sure, but the bad apples certainly take up amplified memory space. The difference was the moms' misbehavin' included yelling at the parents from the other team, while the mis-behavin' dads confined their yelling/overbearingness to the field (players and umps) and never directed their yelling at dads from the other team (that's too 'I might take a punch in the mouth' risky).


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## lksseven (Mar 21, 2010)

midwayarcherywi said:


> I think that is a policy I could support. There just isn't any need to have a coach in the archers area. You can coach just fine from the spectator seats.
> 
> At last years Outdoor Nationals, I think I was buried pretty deep in the spectator area when my son shot his OR matches. I saw all his shots and was able to give him effective feedback when he wanted it.


Completely agree.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

> Uh-oh - that statement will be like 'the bat woman/mommy jeans signal' for SeattlePop. Get ready to duck!


Folks like that are why the created ignore buttons. Mine works really well.


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## Seattlepop (Dec 8, 2003)

lksseven said:


> Uh-oh - that statement will be like 'the bat woman/mommy jeans signal' for SeattlePop. Get ready to duck! :icon_1_lol:
> 
> I coached my daughter's softball team for 10 years, and saw a fair amount of poor behavior from dads as well as moms (a small % of both, to be sure, but the bad apples certainly take up amplified memory space. The difference was the moms' misbehavin' included yelling at the parents from the other team, while the mis-behavin' dads confined their yelling/overbearingness to the field (players and umps) and never directed their yelling at dads from the other team (that's too 'I might take a punch in the mouth' risky).


Good one, and well deserved. It's a tough job but somebody needs to do it lol.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

I just wish Seattle would add me to her ignore list. That would be a a win-win.


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## Seattlepop (Dec 8, 2003)

limbwalker said:


> I just wish Seattle would add me to her ignore list. That would be a a win-win.


Tsk. Was that an attempted sexuality insult? Shame. 

You nor anyone else should feel they can use AT, a globally available internet forum, to relentlessly post groundless attacks on USA Archery and Easton/Hoyt and think they can do so with impunity. Using your Olympian status as a badge of authority and position of trust makes your obsessive rants an abuse. I imagine the only picture some people have of USAA is the negative one you continue to paint. How sad is that - isn’t a question. 

Have you seen the actual definition of an internet troll? Let’s review:

“Troll: An Internet troll is someone who posts offensive, controversial, or divisive material on an Internet community.” (Wisegeek.com)

“Trolls are immune to criticism and logical arguments. True trolls cannot be reasoned with, regardless of how sound your logical argument is.
“Trolls do not feel remorse like you and me. They have sociopathic tendencies, and accordingly, they delight in other people having hurt feelings.
“Trolls consider themselves separate from the social order.
“Trolls do not abide by etiquette or the rules of common courtesy. –(Netforbeginners.about.com)

Somewhere it probably also shows that trolls are insulting, condescending, and self-righteous. 

Archery Talk used to be a place for objective discussion and respectful behavior. I hope others will begin to demand it become so again. 

BTW, I would LOVE to shoot like a girl. In my club the women ROCK!

Limbwalker, everyone knows you are one of the best technical advisers on the internet. I've been a fan and beneficiary myself. But everyone in the world (literally) knows how you feel about USAA and Easton/Hoyt. It isn't helpful. So enough already. Please.


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## Warbow (Apr 18, 2006)

Seattlepop said:


> But everyone in the world (literally) knows how you feel about USAA and Easton/Hoyt. It isn't helpful. So enough already. Please.


While I don't always agree with him, John's insight as an "outsider" who got to the inside and then back out, his advocacy for grassroots archery and willingness to point at the Emperor's New clothes is vital to moving the org forward. I'd say it is every bit as vital to target archery as his technical advice. For example, he's helped push forward a number of key improvements to the way the JOAD and AAP are run, and he did that because he's not beholden to the status quo, or to any corporate sponsors. And he's been a key player in elevating BB within USAA. Change ruffles feathers, but stagnation is worse, it kills organizations.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Seeing SP's comments through Warbow's post, all I can say is that few if any people should presume to know what I think about USArchery. Least of all someone who hasn't done much, if anything, to help them or promote their programs. It would probably shock and disappoint some of the haters at how well I get along with, and work with, many of the USArchery staff. 

But what is it the kids say these days? Haters gonna hate...


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## Seattlepop (Dec 8, 2003)

Warbow said:


> While I don't always agree with him, John's insight as an "outsider" who got to the inside and then back out, his advocacy for grassroots archery and willingness to point at the Emperor's New clothes is vital to moving the org forward. I'd say it is every bit as vital to target archery as his technical advice. For example, he's helped push forward a number of key improvements to the way the JOAD and AAP are run, and he did that because he's not beholden to the status quo, or to any corporate sponsors. And he's been a key player in elevating BB within USAA. Change ruffles feathers, but stagnation is worse, it kills organizations.


Of course. That quote would have been more meaningful if I had included NTS and Coach Lee. 

No haters here. Hate the bashing, not the basher. I think I read that somewhere. 

As far as I'm concerned, meeting adjourned "sine die".


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Still hatin' no doubt.

Anyway, this thread was about coach credentials, right?


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