# Southern Illinois Cup - a Jr. USAT ranking event



## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Folks, for those that haven't seen it yet, or know about the SI Cup, have a look at our website:

www.siarchers.org

Click on the "tournaments" page...

Patty Blakley, the tournament director, has just secured lodging arangements that are truly unique. The "Touch of Nature" Environmental Education center - run by Southern Illinois University - has a small hotel on site with 18 rooms available. They also have some dorms, or "cabins" that could work out for families attending the event. 

This is a great facility in a very rustic setting - on the banks of Little Grassy Lake, which is managed by the Crab Orchard National Wildlife Refuge.

I know the staff at Touch of Nature, and am very excited to be able to refer archers and their families to this facility. Great work Patty!

Not many registration forms have been received yet, so lots of folks are procrastinating it seems. Don't wait! Get those forms in.

Because space is limited, we are accepting registrations from Junior and Cadet archers first. After May 11, Adult, Cub and Bowman registrations will be accepted in the order they were recieved, until all the target assignments are filled.

We have a wonderful field in the middle of Carbondale, Illinois, and the facilities are very convenient. Parking will be within 200 FEET of the shooting line, and concessions will be available. 

This will also be registered as a STAR Fita, a IPC qualifying event, and an Olympic qualifying event. 

The event is being run by the Southern Illinois Archers JOAD, with the help of many local archers and friends. We hope to see you there!


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## Serious Fun (May 12, 2003)

*The SI Cup is a key Jr USAT event*

I am often asked “How do I make Jr USAT?”
Here is a link to the 2008 Junior USAT Criteria
http://www.usarchery.org/files/2008_jr_usat_criteria.pdf

After family support, equipment, coaching, training and practice tournaments there are the actual Jr USAT ranking tournaments, FITA/70 meter and OR Qualifying scores.
JOAD Nationals is mandatory plus two other Jr USAT ranking tournaments.
Indoors is a good choice for one of the two other Jr USAT ranking tournaments because it’s close to all.
That leaves the National Target Championship a 5 day tournament in the west and the SI Cup, a 3 day tournament.
Along the way, encourage your FITA community to host USA Archery FITA qualifiers and ORs.

If you are interested in making Jr USAT, the SI Cup is a great choice for many reasons:

A three day tournament takes less time and as a result can be less costly than a 5 day tourney.
If you live in the east in the middle of the country SI Cup is closer.
It is a chance to shoot a FITA and OR qualifying score before the JOAD Nationals.
The SI Cup takes place a few weeks before the JOAD Nationals which allows JOAD’s to make adjustments between the tournaments.
Finally, if you don’t take part in the SI Cup someone else might score high and impact your standing.
When all is said and done the SI Cup is a key Jr USAT event for all!

My family has been to the SI Cup twice and enjoyed the green country side.
They flew into St Louis, rented a car and drove a couple of hours to Carbondale.

USA Archery JOAD Committee Vice Chair, Bob Pian, a former JOAD parent.


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## Rich (Sep 9, 2002)

I am planning on taking my son, could you PM me, or post some contact info for the "Touch of Nature". How much travel time to the venue? I had emailed Patty, and she supplied me with a list of hotels, but this sounds interesting. 
Thanks


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Bob,

Thanks for the support and information. I agree, it is a very good opportunity, and we will try to make sure it's a fun event for everyone. And this part of Illinois really is a beautiful place to visit, with lots of neat things to see while you're here.

Rich, just go to our website: www.siarchers.org and click on the "tournaments" page. All the contact info for Touch of Nature is there. Patty just notified me yesterday about this opportunity, so I posted it on the website last night.

John.


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## Jim Pruitte (May 27, 2002)

We look forward to seeing everyone up there John.


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## JLorenti (Mar 17, 2004)

*John....*

We are booked at the Little Grassy Lodge. Thank you so much for the info. We are enthusiastically looking foward to our stay there. Allison's application is in the mail.
From the Touch of Nature Staff, they say it is only 11 miles away from the the SI cup venue.
Looking foward to seeing you at the SI CUP.


Thanks Again,

Joe Lorenti


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## Serious Fun (May 12, 2003)

*After Jr USAT*

Its great to see the interest in Jr USAT.
USA Archery’s JOAD program is moving forward day by day.
JOADs can continue with their archery achievements in college too.

There are Academic All Americans, All Americans, World University Games Teams and the US Intercollegiate Archery Championships (USIAC)
USA College Archery Program (CAP) archers also have the unique opportunity to compete in the senior ranks and as a CAP archer at the same time at the Indoor Nationals.
Visit, www.uscollegiatearchery.org for USA CAP information.

Now back to the SI Cup…


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## CM JOAD (Oct 9, 2005)

limbwalker said:


> Folks, for those that haven't seen it yet, or know about the SI Cup, have a look at our website:
> 
> www.siarchers.org
> 
> ...


Is this specifically for youth/Jr USAT event or will adults also able to compete in Adult divisions in the "STAR FITA"?


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## Serious Fun (May 12, 2003)

*From the tournament website*



CM JOAD said:


> Is this specifically for youth/Jr USAT event or will adults also able to compete in Adult divisions in the "STAR FITA"?


From the tournament website:

"...Registration: 

Due to limited space (72 archers) at this qualifying tournament, Cadet and Junior division registrations will be given priority thru May 11th. 

After May 11, Bowman, Cub and Adult archers will be registered in the order they were recieved, until all available targets are filled. All registrations must be postmarked by May 25, 2007, to avoid late registration fees..."


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Thanks Bob.

This was the best way I could figure out how to handle the situation. This way, the Cadet/Junior archers clearly had priority because of the Jr. USAT ranking status, but other JOAD archers and adults (including IPC and Olympic hopefuls) could still get in if there was room.

There is still room, and May 11 is quickly approaching.

I would strongly encourage all Junior and Cadet archers who plan to attend to get your registrations in as soon as possible. We have had a lot of interest by adults and younger archers, and we will begin registering them in the order their information was received, very soon.

John.


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## Serious Fun (May 12, 2003)

*FYI, great price*

FYI, at $60 the tournament entry fee is a bargain.
$20 per day, for a three day tournament.
Thats less than the cost of 6 gallons of gas a day.

You dont host tournament for the money, you host them to provide a service to the archers, one that the archers should take advantage of at every opprotunity if target archery is to grow.


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## CM JOAD (Oct 9, 2005)

*Junior USAT Criteria*

I imagine it is a typo, but part of the Jr. USAT Criteria is to participate in the JOAD Championships June 29th - July 2nd in "Ohio"?


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

CM JOAD, I got your PM. Thanks.

John.


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## pencarrow (Oct 3, 2003)

John:
I regret to inform you, I will not be attending the SI Cup. Due to my poor showing at lest years outdoor Nationalsukey: , my BOG has witheld tournament funding until I can guarantee a better return for their money.
Have a great shoot. I will be watching the scores & shooting in absence.

Will try for COS.

Fritz


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## Huntmaster (Jan 30, 2003)

pencarrow said:


> John:
> I regret to inform you, I will not be attending the SI Cup. Due to my poor showing at lest years outdoor Nationalsukey: , my BOG has witheld tournament funding until I can guarantee a better return for their money.
> Have a great shoot. I will be watching the scores & shooting in absence.
> 
> ...


I sure hope she doesn't catch you calling her that. :icon_1_lol:


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## CM JOAD (Oct 9, 2005)

pencarrow said:


> John:
> I regret to inform you, I will not be attending the SI Cup. Due to my poor showing at lest years outdoor Nationalsukey: , my BOG has witheld tournament funding until I can guarantee a better return for their money.
> Have a great shoot. I will be watching the scores & shooting in absence.
> 
> ...


I think I can guarantee that our Minnesota entries will be an "excellent return for their money". Are they interested?


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

> Due to my poor showing at lest years outdoor Nationals , my BOG has witheld tournament funding until I can guarantee a better return for their money.


Fritz, my friend, I am both incredibly dissapointed to hear this, and laughing at the same time. Laughing because I know exactly how it feels. And it's half the reason I've not been seen at any NAA shoots in years. Gotta set priorities sometimes...

Shoot well buddy.

John.


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## Serious Fun (May 12, 2003)

*Priority registration deadline today*

Priority Juniors and Cadets registration deadline today, May 11, 2007.
http://www.siarchers.org/page4.html


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Thanks Bob.

Yes, the deadline for priority registration is today!

So we will begin registering all divisions in the order they were recieved, as well as any new registrations.

Be sure to check the website for availability.

John.


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## CM JOAD (Oct 9, 2005)

limbwalker said:


> Thanks Bob.
> 
> Yes, the deadline for priority registration is today!
> 
> ...


Hi John,

How is the registration going? Do we have good Cadet and Junior numbers?


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## CM JOAD (Oct 9, 2005)

*Registration*

Hi John,

I just noticed on your website and I see that you have the registrations listed. Thanks!


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## Serious Fun (May 12, 2003)

*Juniors and Cadet - Jr USAT Ranking at the SI Cup*

I cannot over emphasize the benefit of taking part in the SI Cup with regards to Jr USAT ranking.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Yea Bob, the benefits at this point should be obvious. And on top of that, Southern Illinois is a nice place to come and shoot. Very scenic, and easy to get around.

For the parents that want their own "experience," the Southern Illinois wine trail is really taking off. It has become tremendously popular, and there are quite a few local vineyards that offer weekend events. Enough to make several days of it for sure. You'd be shocked that you were in Southern Illinois.

John.


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## CM JOAD (Oct 9, 2005)

Serious Fun said:


> I cannot over emphasize the benefit of taking part in the SI Cup with regards to Jr USAT ranking.


For anyone wishing to get on the JrUSAT team, attending the Southern Illinois Cup is really a "no brainer". It is simply a game of numbers. Of the four qualifying events, historically, this is probably the one that will have the fewest number of shooters.

Since the Jr USAT rankings are based on the lowest placement at each event, attending an event with fewer competitors increases your chances of achieving a low rank. Even though the attendance is less, the ranking achieved is equal in value and counts the same in determining the JrUSAT team as do the other three larger events.

Of course, this doesn't mean that the quality of competition is any less, just fewer competitors. 

It would be interesting to see the relationship between those who competed at the Southern Illinois Cup in the past and those that ultimately achieved a position on the Jr USAT team. I would certainly think that the percentage is msuch higher than any of the other events.

There is only room for 72 shooters, so if the JrUSAT is of interest to you, get your applications into the Southern Illinois Cup today. I hear they are filling up fast!


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## Serious Fun (May 12, 2003)

John, Jim, I guess the three of us can chat,

Those that take on the challenge of trying out for Jr USAT do so for only a few years. 
Four years at the most, then its time to step up to Collegiate and the Senior ranks.

Families that are new to JOAD have a tendency to think that Jr USAT and other program participants are somehow “invited” to take part.
If it were not for veteran Arizona JOAD families showing the way, we would likely not have understood that anyone can go for it and no one formally tells you to give it a try.
A JOAD and family need only to know that the effort is a worthy one and then commit the time and funds.

I suspect many JOAD’s and families are not aware of the Jr USAT program and the Indoor Nationals as a Jr USAT ranking event. 
Thanks to the SI Cup, a JOAD can miss Indoor Nationals or National Target Championship and still take part in three Jr USAT ranking tournaments. 

The JOAD community needs to support the SI Cup as a Jr USAT ranking tournament. 
If the JOAD community does not support the SI Cup, the need for an “extra” ranking tournament in non US Jr World Team Trials years is brought into question.

We need more female compounds JOADs in general. 
At the world level, many a Jr Female Compound have not been eligible for medals because of a lack of Jr Compound Females world wide.

It is odd to see so few male compounds currently registered at the SI 2007 Cup. 
Then again, I have been at this JOAD thing only a few years and am now a “’former JOAD parent”.
I suspect that each division has its own ups and downs for different reasons.


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## CM JOAD (Oct 9, 2005)

*Great News for Me!*

My son Corey is attending, but I was disappointed a couple of weeks ago when I found out that I had a business commitment and would not be able to attend the Southern Illinois Cup with him.

This morning I found out that my business commitment has been rescheduled for September! Great! Now I will be able to go with him. We may even be able to find a few other kids from our JOAD that want to ride along.

John, I look forward to meeting you in person. Bob, are you going to be there?


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## Serious Fun (May 12, 2003)

*Thank goodness the SI Cup is offered as a Jr USAT Qualifier!*



CM JOAD said:


> Bob, are you going to be there?


Jim
I will be at 2007 JOAD Nationals in Chula Vista but not the 2007 SI Cup.

Good news on being able to take part.
I would think that there are some that didnt make the Indoor Nationals or cannot take the time off for the National Target Championship. 
Thank goodness the SI Cup is offered as a Jr USAT Qualifier!


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## TomB (Jan 28, 2003)

> We need more female compounds JOADs in general.
> At the world level, many a Jr Female Compound have not been eligible for medals because of a lack of Jr Compound Females world wide.


Unfortunatly Bob many of the good american compound female juniors are still smarting from the maltreatment they took at Junior Worlds in Mexico. I know one that has quit archery altogether because of the farce. I have another one that was in the second tier of that very competitive group who now wonders if the view is worth the climb, only to be thrown off the top when you get there. This is nothing against the SI cup, in fact for my son and I a few years back, this was one of the best trips we ever took for archery. The drive up and back was memorable. But, I feel we may have done long term harm to the compound ladies group by the way they were treated in Mexico. The lack of participants at least in this group may be the fallout from Mexico. Not one of the four girls who made the Jr World team and are still eligible to shoot as JOADs have signed up.

Three of my JOAD will be making the trip up to shoot.


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## CM JOAD (Oct 9, 2005)

*Any Help Needed?*

Hi John,

I personally will not be shooting at your tournament. Is there anything that I can do to help while I am there? We plan to get into Carbondale about 2 pm on Friday so anything you need me to do on Friday afternoon, Saturday or Sunday morning, let me know.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Thank you, Thank you, Thank you. 

Yes, we do need folks to help. I will let the tournament committee (our JOAD parents  ) know you will be available to help.

There will be more than enough work to go around. I am planning to shoot at the moment, but that could change for a variety of reasons. Not the least of which is needing someone to run around and do things during the event.

John.


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## Nicely (Jun 13, 2002)

As a parent of a Junior Female Compound Archer let me offer the following as to why we may not go: 

Had to fund must attend trips to Jr. Worlds in Mexico and Turkey, Trials in Texas and Chula Vista, up coming Joad Nationals and National Target Championships all in the past year. 

Partialy funded trips to Texas shoot Out and Gold Cup (sent with friends).

All the above have required significant days missed from school.

In this case it is the later that will probably keep us home.


The Mexico mix up has no impact on our decision to shoot or not overall it was a fantastic experience. The only lingering complaint is that FITA never made a final decision on what they were going to do. I received an email from a high ranking FITA official stating he would try to resolve the issue and let me know of his findings. I sent follow ups and never got a response. This whole issue was 100% the NAA's fault but FITA could have and still can make it right.

The suggestion to attend based on low numbers and a Higher ranking really flies in the face of why we should compete. I wonder if anyone actually signed up based on this?? I'll bet not many did. I think someone really interested in Archery would be more apt to stay home if a tournament lacked numbers in their particular division, especially if significant travel was involved. I may be wrong here would like to hear opinions.

All this above makes it tough for contending archers to travel to shoots much less others who just do it for the experience.


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## TomB (Jan 28, 2003)

Good to know Mexico did not influence the Nicely family. 

The SI cup is one of the best events for JOADs. It is centrally located in the US and doesn't impose undue travel burdens on the majority of the archers. It is efficient and well run without the infinite number of equipment failures and delays of JOAD nationals. For my money besides a junior world trial event, it is the best opportunity for cadets and juniors to shoot against their peers and friends in a cool, fun environment. It is just too bad more of the customers don't see it that way.


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## CM JOAD (Oct 9, 2005)

Nicely said:


> The suggestion to attend based on low numbers and a Higher ranking really flies in the face of why we should compete. I wonder if anyone actually signed up based on this?? I'll bet not many did. I think someone really interested in Archery would be more apt to stay home if a tournament lacked numbers in their particular division, especially if significant travel was involved. I may be wrong here would like to hear opinions.
> 
> All this above makes it tough for contending archers to travel to shoots much less others who just do it for the experience.


I seemed to have missed the class on "why 'we' should complete"

The main reason we are going to the Southern Illinois Cup is to help out the organizers that are putting out a lot of money on the line for Jr. USAT. Hopefully, we can induce more people to attend also so these folks can recoup some of their money. What they don't need is some 'we' folks not attending becuase it doesn't meet their ideal standards.

I guess now there is no reason for the rest of us to have any competitions, rankings, trophies, paydays or any awards at all since the "we" folks have decided for the rest of us are unethical. If you don't want to go, fine. That doesn't give you the right to question any one else's motives. God forbid anyone would want a good ranking which "flies in the face of why 'we' should compete.

I am not exactly sure how the millions of dollars spent each year on new state of the art equipment fits into your philosophy. I can't believe anyone would be looking for some kind of advantage? At least you didn't stupe that low, did you?


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## Serious Fun (May 12, 2003)

*Wishing all the SI Cup archers good weather.*

The Nicely’s have shot a lot of tournaments.
They have certainly jumped in with both feet.

I think people take part in the SI Cup for two reasons.
One is that they need a second Jr USAT Qualifier and can’t make National Target Championship or Indoor Nationals for some reason.
Another reason is to defend your ranking, the thinking being if you rank highly, you prevent others from ranking highly.

I think what we all would like to see is participation because it’s a good tourney.
Held in a good place (Central USA)
Held at a good time (After most schools are out but still before JOAD Nationals)
Held by a group that seeks to serve the archery community (Why else would anyone host a tourney?)

Wishing all the SI Cup archers good weather.


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## Hollywood (Oct 24, 2002)

A bit off topic, but it seems as though this is as good a place as any....CONGRATS to Kendal on making the Compound Women's World Team!!! Nice shooting - especially in the ORs! Very good!

-peace,
Hollywood


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## CM JOAD (Oct 9, 2005)

Nicely said:


> I think someone really interested in Archery would be more apt to stay home if a tournament lacked numbers in their particular division, especially if significant travel was involved.


This could be a self-fulfilling prophecy. Lots of people staying home because of the perception of low attendance could actually be the cause of the low attendance. Also, lots of people staying home because of the perception of low attendance could result in the organizers not staging the event next year. If we want a good number of shooting opportunities in the future, 'we' all need to support them, especially since it is a National Jr USAT Qualifier!


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## Serious Fun (May 12, 2003)

CM JOAD said:


> This could be a self-fulfilling prophecy. Lots of people staying home because of the perception of low attendance could actually be the cause of the low attendance. Also, lots of people staying home because of the perception of low attendance could result in the organizers not staging the event next year. If we want a good number of shooting opportunities in the future, 'we' all need to support them, especially since it is a National Jr USAT Qualifier!


Jim
FYI,
The SI Cup as a Jr USAT Qualifier typically takes place every other year on non USA Jr World Team Trials years. In other words, the SI Cup is a Jr USAT Qualifier when there is not another 4th Jr USAT Qualifier.

The every other year scheduling maybe one of the reasons JOADs and JOAD families are not more familiar with the SI Cup. After two SI Cups, a Jr USAT candidate is out of JOAD altogether. I have always said that a childs time as a JOAD is short. As a result they and their family should take part in as many JOAD events and programs as possble before they age out..


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## Nicely (Jun 13, 2002)

CM JOAD

I think you over reacted a bit to my comment or maybe I said it wrong. Going because you can gain a higher placement for JR USAT shouldn't be at the top of your list of reasons to go. I am a supporter of Archers attending as many shoots as they can especially ones on the national stage like the ILL. Cup. I preach it in our JOAD classes. The rub comes when you have a choice of shoots to go to and can't attend them all. I just wondered if the low numbers in a particular division really would be a deciding factor for an Archer to attend?? I wasn't suggesting anyone stay home, we have at least 2 Archers from our club going and we still may send Kendal, it's the 2 days of school she would miss that's the deciding factor if. I spent about an hour yesterday checking flights and thought we could do it by sending her after school Friday and taking a late Sunday flight home, but the airport is too far from the venue to do this.

QUOTE:

"I am not exactly sure how the millions of dollars spent each year on new state of the art equipment fits into your philosophy. I can't believe anyone would be looking for some kind of advantage? At least you didn't stupe that low, did you?"

I didn't think I stuped low at all. You took bits out of my reply and put you're spin on it.

If anyone was offended I appologize.

Matt


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Oh for crying out loud. Seems like everything on AT leads to an argument these days for Pete's sake.

Folks, we're talking about YOUTH SPORTS here. Not the superbowl or the Olympics. Let's all just do what we can to get along and keep the opinions to ourselves for the benefit of the kids... Okay?

I'd hate for any of this nonsense to carry over (like it has since Mexico) to our event. If it did, I'd probably end up saying a few things to some parents that I'd later regret...

In nearly 5 years of being heavily involved in JOAD, I can honestly say that it's Always a pleasure to work with the kids. At the end of the day, they are usually more mature than the parents.  

John.


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## spangler (Feb 2, 2007)

limbwalker said:


> Oh for crying out loud. Seems like everything on AT leads to an argument these days for Pete's sake.


No it doesn't! You are dead wrong! 

Wrong! Wrong! Wrong!

-Andrew


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## Nicely (Jun 13, 2002)

Hollywood 

on behalf of Kendal thank You, she worked very hard. Matt


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## CM JOAD (Oct 9, 2005)

Time to get this moved back up to the top! John, how are the numbers coming in? Any adults shooting?


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Yes, there are several adults registered. Registrations just topped 50 today. All but a few are listed on the website...

www.siarchers.org

John.


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## JayTyler (Jul 6, 2006)

I will be attending this event, 
Hope to see some old friends and meet some new.
Thanks,
-Tyler J.


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## CM JOAD (Oct 9, 2005)

*Fill 'er Up!*

As of Sunday, there were already about 50 archers registered. Only about 20 more spots available with a little over two weeks before the first arrow flies. Over 50 archers have decided that the Southern Illinois Cup is their path to JrUSAT. Send in your registration today to be included in "part of the fun"!


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## CM JOAD (Oct 9, 2005)

ttt


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Space is still available!

I will get an updated list of archers on the website sometime today. 

Late registration has been extended through June 1. If you send in your registration late, or it is in the mail now, please notify Patty, the tournament director, by phone or e-mail (numbers and address are available on the siarchers.org website)

Thanks, and we'll see you there!

John.


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## Serious Fun (May 12, 2003)

*How many more?*



limbwalker said:


> Space is still available!
> 
> I will get an updated list of archers on the website sometime today.
> 
> ...


The 2005 SI Cup had 41 Cadet and Junior, Jr USAT competitors.
There were also 8 Cub and Bowman JOADs that took part for a total of 49 archers.

As of May 30, the 2007 SI Cup has 59 registered archers.
42 Cadet and Juniors
6 Cub and Bowman
11 Adults for a total of 59 archers.

That steady attendance for a tournament that servers as a Jr USAT qualifier every other year.
I wonder how many will take advantage of the extended deadline.


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## CM JOAD (Oct 9, 2005)

*Status*

Hi John! How are the SI Cup preparations coming along? What have the wind conditions been like? Here in Minnesota the wind has been just terrible for at least the last month. This weekend it finally started to ease up.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

We had a regularly scheduled JOAD outdoor practice today (just got in from that) and the parents were all thick in the middle of event planning, wrapping up details. Patty Blakley, the tournament director, said it looked like everything was falling in place, thanks in largest part to her hard work and detail-oriented approach. She could hire herself out for this kind of thing. She catches stuff that even the most experienced among us miss.

Winds were pretty normal today. I've been in Turkey for the past week with the US team, so I can't tell you much, but I do know the forecast temperatures are very hot for the weekend. Unseasonably hot. 

So far, at SI Cup events, we've had everything from high's just breaking 50 and pouring down rain, to thunderstorm delays, to perfect weather, to extreme heat. This time of year in the midwest, you could get anything.

Most likely, winds will be light in the morning, and gusty in the afternoon... As ususal. :wink:

John.


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## CM JOAD (Oct 9, 2005)

*Weather Forcast*

I just checked the weather forcast for Saturday and Sunday in Carbondale, IL. Saturday looks picture perfect! 84 degrees. 10% chance of rain. 5 mph winds. Sunday is basically the same, except the chance of "occasional" thundershowers goes up to only 30%. Looking Good!


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

You ABSOLUTELY wouldn't want to be shooting here today. Gale force winds and small craft advisories on the lakes. Bales would be rolling across the field. Hopefully this will blow itself out tonight and it will be better this weekend. Supposed to be HOT though.

John.


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## Huntmaster (Jan 30, 2003)

limbwalker said:


> You ABSOLUTELY wouldn't want to be shooting here today. Gale force winds and small craft advisories on the lakes. Bales would be rolling across the field. Hopefully this will blow itself out tonight and it will be better this weekend. Supposed to be HOT though.
> 
> John.


I'm still not clear about winds. Is there a "cut off" for wind speed to shut the shoot down, had you been shooting today?

I see no purpose in shooting on days there are garbage can races......seems like a hazard to be honest.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Actually, my students and I WERE shooting in those winds! Good time to practice, so long as you aren't losing arrows.

Thunderstorms this morning that should be done by 9:00 or 10:00, then we scramble to get the field ready for practice...

Saturday looks like it will be real nice though.

John.


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## Jim C (Oct 15, 2002)

limbwalker said:


> Actually, my students and I WERE shooting in those winds! Good time to practice, so long as you aren't losing arrows.
> 
> Thunderstorms this morning that should be done by 9:00 or 10:00, then we scramble to get the field ready for practice...
> 
> ...


say hello to the smurf for me (Kelley Smith)-he is the ANTI-MAGERA-your cosmic balance in the universe. he matches up with you to keep the average height of archers around six feet


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## Serious Fun (May 12, 2003)

*2007 SI Cup Official Practice Day*

So...how was practice today?
http://www.siarchers.org/page4.html


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Practice today was wonderful. The day started out in a very ominous way. Severe thunderstorms, lightning and rainining cats and dogs. But by 9:00 a.m. the rain had let up to a drizzle, and we began preparing the field. 

By 1:00, we were all set. Both men's and womens sides of the fields striped and painted, two 10x20 tents and chairs for archers, a DOS tent and sound system, electronic timers, 25 target stands and matts at each of SEVEN distances (these junior events are tough!), trash cans, portable potty trailer (air conditioned, mind you), Registration tent, concession sales, etc., etc., etc.

The good Lord was surely looking after all of us today. It was all up and ready before anyone realized it!

Jim, I'll say hello to him for sure. Ironically, I'm not the tallest recurver here! There is a 17 year old that is 6'5" and draws 1/2" longer than I do! He's getting every ounce out of the poor unfortunate 68" PSE limbs he shoots, that's for sure!

Looks like a great group of folks. Sure wish Doug and Darrell could have made it.

After the Junior and Cadets shoot their O.R. tommorrow, we're going to have a friendly "******* roundup" elimination round. Men and women, boys and girls will all throw their name in a hat to see who they shoot against in the first round. Only divisions will be recurve or compound. Each archer will shoot at their respective O.R. distance. Should be fun! Gotta watch the Bowmen. They get to shoot a 122 cm face at 25 meters!

John.


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## Jim C (Oct 15, 2002)

Doug lives about 10 minutes from our house and has the combination to the indoor range and we hardly see him. Smurf is here at least 4 days a week-sometimes 7 and he has a half hour drive minimum


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## spangler (Feb 2, 2007)

limbwalker said:


> Practice today was wonderful. The day started out in a very ominous way. Severe thunderstorms, lightning and rainining cats and dogs. But by 9:00 a.m. the rain had let up to a drizzle, and we began preparing the field.
> 
> By 1:00, we were all set. Both men's and womens sides of the fields striped and painted, two 10x20 tents and chairs for archers, a DOS tent and sound system, electronic timers, 25 target stands and matts at each of SEVEN distances (these junior events are tough!), trash cans, portable potty trailer (air conditioned, mind you), Registration tent, concession sales, etc., etc., etc.
> 
> ...


John,

Don't bowmen shoot the OR at 30M?


-Andrew


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## Serious Fun (May 12, 2003)

*2007 JOAD Handbook*

From page 15 of the 2007 JOAD Handbook;
"Bowman...In outdoor tournaments, boys and girls both shoot 30, 25, 25, 20 meters. 
Bowman archers score the outer 10 ring in outdoor competition. 
The Olympic Round (Elimination/OR) is shot at 30 meters, ..."

Handbook pdf link: http://www.usaarcheryjoad.org/files/2007JOADHandbook.pdf

Webpage source http://www.usaarcheryjoad.org/p5.html

Website source: http://www.usaarcheryjoad.org/


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Aha! So they do then. Thanks for the heads-up. 

That should give some of the grown-ups some hope then! ha, ha. :wink:

Should be fun tommorrow.

Weather could not possibly have been better today. I know of one 1305 (cadet recurve) that was shot today, and a 344 (junior compound) that was shot at 70 meters. 

John.


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## spangler (Feb 2, 2007)

John,

No problem. The only reason I knew that is because my daughter (who you met at NFAA nationals) shoots in that class. 

-Andrew


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## ftapao (Jun 10, 2007)

*SI Cup photos posted at Flickr*

I'm the photographer who was at the SI Cup Saturday. I've posted some of the images on Flickr:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/artless/sets/72157600333620391/

For legal reasons I can't post the ones that ran in the Southern Illinoisan, but if someone wants to have a copy e-mailed to them you can contact me through Flickr or through this forum.


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## Serious Fun (May 12, 2003)

ftapao said:


> I'm the photographer who was at the SI Cup Saturday. I've posted some of the images on Flickr:
> 
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/artless/sets/72157600333620391/
> 
> For legal reasons I can't post the ones that ran in the Southern Illinoisan, but if someone wants to have a copy e-mailed to them you can contact me through Flickr or through this forum.


Thank you!


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

We wrapped up the Cadet and Jr. O.R. round before noon. I'll try to get results up asap.

Following the "official" ranking O.R., we started our home-grown O.R. for all archers, a.k.a. the "******* Roundup..."

The rules (and there were VERY few rules) were totally random brackets, and each archer shot at their second-longest distance on the 122 cm face. There were only two divisions - recurve or compound. A total of 16 compound and 20 recurve archers played in the matches.

It worked out perfect!

We had a nice mixture of medalists - Adult, Junior, Cadet, Cub and Bowman. And boy was it a hoot when Darrell Pace went into full ******* mode on the microphone. Between him calling the line (and making up rules as he went), Josh Anderson's hillbilly costume (complete with overalls, straw hat and missing tooth) and Larry Skinner's "old man" antics, even the archers were rolling. We had to let down we were laughing so hard. It was a very fun end to a very successful tournament.

This was the first time we've shot on that field in Carbondale, but probably won't be the last. In my humble opinion, it was the best archery field I've ever shot on. I'm sure many would agree. I know of at least one National record that was set on that field this weekend.

Thanks to everyone for coming and helping make it so successful.

John.


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## FLarcherymom (Jun 10, 2007)

*Best Tournament in 4 yrs*

This was by far the best tournament we have attended in 4 years. I think even Kiley agrees it was better then the water fight she had with Vic two years ago in FL.

The ******* round up was very fun and very fair. When shooting at the archer's second longest distance made the handicap very fair. 

They shot down to the medal rounds in each the compound and recurve divisions and then had a one arrow shoot off between the two gold medalists. John lost to Allison Lorenti in the one arrow shoot off. They each had to shoot at the 80 cm face. Darrel Pace was a hoot. He had the archers "fetch" their arrows after each end. He also made everyone stop shooting to allow Larry Skinner a drink of water. Each tie was broken with a one arrow shot off but the lowest score won. But if it was a miss it did not count. Larry and John had to have a one arrow shoot off (after Larry shot 7 arrows in an end) and Larry missed and John shot an 8. There were some people that saw the event from the road and stopped to watch. They watched a short period of time and were heard as they were leaving, comment that there was no way Darrel Pace was an Olympic Gold Medalist. It was really funny. They had special awards for this event as well. 

We will come back again, Jr USAT event or not. Hats off to the small group that put this event on. It was very well run, they did a great job.:wink::darkbeer:

John thanks again for the time spent after the tournament with Kiley.


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## TomB (Jan 28, 2003)

The Texas youth contigent said they had a marvelous time. Josh Anderson's Texas citizenship has been recinded for his hillbilly performance. Seriously, the kids from Texas now know what I meant when I said this was one of the best tournaments my son and I ever went to several years ago. Congratulations for a marvelous job by all the organizers. Way to make archery fun!

tom


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## ftapao (Jun 10, 2007)

ftapao said:


> I'm the photographer who was at the SI Cup Saturday. I've posted some of the images on Flickr:
> 
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/artless/sets/72157600333620391/
> 
> For legal reasons I can't post the ones that ran in the Southern Illinoisan, but if someone wants to have a copy e-mailed to them you can contact me through Flickr or through this forum.





Serious Fun said:


> Thank you!


You're more than welcome. It was the first time I'd covered archery, but I hope I get another chance--I definitely had a good time.


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## Jim Pruitte (May 27, 2002)

We had a great time there this past weekend. Not only did this group work very hard organizing the tournament, but provided wonderful too. 

Thanks for all the hard work that everyone put into this event. It did not go unnoticed.

Jim


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## Rich (Sep 9, 2002)

First off, a big Thank You to all the people involved in putting this together. Excellent field, and perfect weather made for a great tournament.
Even the local deer population came out for the viewing pleasure of the spectators :smile:


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## Sanosuke archer (Oct 28, 2006)

It was a very fun event. I enjoyed it and must say that it was put together well. 
The weather was nice.
The deer were running free.
Wish I could have stayed for the ******* round up, but it was a long drive back to Vermont. 

Jordan G.


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## Serious Fun (May 12, 2003)

*SI Cup Staff and volunteers,*

SI Cup Staff and volunteers,
It’s great to hear that the tournament was a success.
Thanks you all for offering the STAR FITA and Jr USAT opportunity.

Those that are looking in, hosting a tournament is rewarding, give it a try.
Tournament directors are more than willing to share what they know, just ask…


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## david & sons (Apr 18, 2003)

Please tell me that wasn't my Josh. What has Larry done to my boy?


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## CM JOAD (Oct 9, 2005)

When will the placing and ranking points be posted?


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

> When will the placing and ranking points be posted?


Easy boy...

Glad to hear you enjoyed the event so much... :wink:

I'm having trouble getting the website builder to accept a new update, but a soon as I do, I'll get the scores posted. The NAA does the ranking points, not us. We just turn in the scorecards and results to them, and we were prepared to do that today, but.... 

It helps when all the scorecards are actually turned in :zip: Having to call all over the U.S. for three missing scorecards set us back by at least a day. I can't believe an archer would leave the field without turning in their scorecard... much less three of them.

John.


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## Dana K (Feb 25, 2005)

*scorecard*

Thought if your scorecard wasn't turned in you got a 0 for your score. Sorta equals a DNS. Have had some kids down here that shoot bad and didn't turn theirs in for the tournament. Didn't want anyone one to see what they shot I quess.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Dana, 

We had three archers leave without turning in their scorecards from the O.R. round. And they were probably the three with the most to lose. Two of them were also the ones practicing between distances without authorization from the DOS or judges...

I would give them a DNS (after all, if I sign an incorrect scorecard in golf, I'm automatically disqualified - no questions asked), but the tournament director is far more forgiving of this kind of thing than I am.

I can tell you that she and the other JOAD mom who worked up the scores on the spreadsheet were up all night worrying over these three archer's cards, and have gone WAY out of their way to get the archer's scorecards, even accepting faxed copies today. But faxed copies won't get it at the NAA office, so the entire field will have to wait on these three before the NAA can post the official results.

John.


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## david & sons (Apr 18, 2003)

*We are so proud!*

We just hope he doesn't change his name to Jed and move to Beverly Hills! (from Josh's mom...who's never seen her son with a beard!) He said he had more fun than he's ever had at a tournament!


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## Hoytemgood (Aug 19, 2006)

*One Legged Josh*

Did Josh tell you he shot the bronze medal match on one leg? He successfully attempted to never put his right foot on the ground through the entire last 6 arrows. After each shot he had to struggle to maintain his balance, but was able to do so.


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## CM JOAD (Oct 9, 2005)

limbwalker said:


> Easy boy...
> 
> John.


I am not from "the south" and I believe I am probably older than you, so I would appreciate if you wouldn't call me "boy"... I think that "*******" stuff might be haivng an affect on you.


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## Jim Pruitte (May 27, 2002)

CM JOAD said:


> I am not from "the south" and I believe I am probably older than you, so I would appreciate if you wouldn't call me "boy"... I think that "*******" stuff might be haivng an affect on you.


I am from the south.. and I assure you that the term boy has nothing to do with one's age... Simply their "standing" (especially when spelled with a "little" "b"... )


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## TomB (Jan 28, 2003)

John,
It is issues like incorrect score cards or missing score cards that make tournament directors reconsider the sacrifices they make to run tournaments. You work you rear off to put on a quality event and then a few folks who want to throw figurative rocks at the organizers, push the limits of the judges and organizers or just plain don't pay attention to detail, that then turn a great event into, "Why am I going through this?"

As a suggestion for next time, you are well within the rules when someone shoots at the bales for practice when the range is not open for practice, to count those arrows as misses for the next end of score. If we shoot after the whistle in practice, those are misses when we do start scoring. You would only have to do this once or twice for the message to get through. 

Please PM me if any of my JOAD's are the ones that left without turning in scorecards. I would like the opportunity to rectify that if any of my JOAD's that I coach did this.

tom

p.s. Jim, Congrats to Samantha for her fine shooting. Your definition of the perjorative "boy" is right on, eventhough I am sure John meant nothing by it.


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## Jim Pruitte (May 27, 2002)

Tom..
I was hoping to see you and Samantha was hoping to see Magan there. There were only a couple of archers there that Samantha knew so she was kinda lonely at times. Are either of you going to be at JOAD Nationals?


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## TomB (Jan 28, 2003)

Jim,
PM sent


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

> It is issues like incorrect score cards or missing score cards that make tournament directors reconsider the sacrifices they make to run tournaments.


Yup, you're right on. A few parents would be ashamed if they knew how their handling of what should be relatively simple responsibilities are affecting our tournament director and club secretary. Or at least they should be. It was discussed during the event whether to count those arrows as misses, or even to D.Q. the archers for not turning in scorecards. No archer should be above the rules. 

Fortunately for them, Patty and Judy are very forgiving, and in the interest of the kids, we are making sure it all works out okay. 

I never expect these kids to be perfect, although I do expect them to do their best to follow the rules. However, I do expect more from the parents. In most all cases, they come through, but there always has to be one or two who's kids are just "more important" than all the rest...:embara:

I don't want to sour what was indeed a fine event. There is some simple rule in human nature that says anytime you get this many folks together, there is always going to be one or two problems, or personality conflicts. We all know that's the case.

The bottom line is that 90% of all those involved did a great job, handled their responsibilities as a judge, archer, parent, or spectator just fine, and we all had a great deal of fun while managing to host an important ranking event for the Cadets and Juniors. 

We're meeting this evening for a de-brief, to see how we can do better next time. We're also going to discuss some of the rules infractions, and decide how those will be handled in the future.

John.


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## champsb&b (Feb 26, 2007)

*Following rules is a challenge for some*

The NAA, as with all national athletic organizations, sets forth rules for competition, behaviour, etc. Rules set the sideboards for competition and behaviour at the events. If archers are allowed to violate the rules without repercussions then why have the rules in the first place? As limbwalker said, no one is perfect and mistakes will be made but the defining criteria are whether the rules violations are knowing and willful conduct, or accidental. If these U.S. archers behaved in this manner at a world event it would be an embarrassment to our U.S. archery program and the archers who work diligently to abide by all the rules, as well as the direction given by their coaches.


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## dajalo (Jan 24, 2006)

*Disrespect!!!!*

Just how many NAA tournaments are shot with 2 scorecards? All of them and why, because 1 scorecard is always turned in as the official scorecard which is then sent in to the NAA office for ranking purposes. Even the little cubs and bowmen know this simple rule!!

I feel that it also needs to be mentioned that 2 of the boys who did not turn in their scorecards, also were the 2, during a critical OR match (gold/silver I believe), who decided to go against the rules as well as not show any respect to those shooting the match by "practicing".

It was brought to my attention this morning, from someone who was watching the tournament, how immature and disrespectful these 2 were. Can you imagine the embarrassment to the US had they been on a National team and this been a world event?

Had this been their first ever tournament I for one could be a bit more forgiving with their behavior and errors. I know for a fact they have shot in enough tournaments prior to this one to know what the rules are and are not.

If my son or daughter had done this sort of thing, the first chance we had, they would be apologizing to the other archers for delaying the posting of the official scores and rankings, to the judges and most of all, to the tournament organizers.


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## JOADMom (Jan 27, 2005)

I think we do a great disservice to the kids if we don't enforce competition rules that they have clearly broken, regardless of the cost or whether it was willful. As the parent of a JOAD who has paid the price of a few minor rule infractions over the years, I can report that he never made the same mistake twice ! I also believe that not enforcing rules can breed the type of disrespect that dajalo is talking about. If a rule is broken and enforced, the archer has the right of appeal, so there is a way to consider extenuating circumstances while at the same time following correct procedure. I know this is time consuming, but as parents you all know that consequences are never easy :sad:. I have been heartbroken for my son at least once, but also very proud of how he behaved and handled his disappointment - that's a life lesson you don't learn by winning!

Did I dream that John posted the unofficial scores last night?


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## CM JOAD (Oct 9, 2005)

dajalo said:


> I feel that it also needs to be mentioned that 2 of the boys ... during a critical OR match (gold/silver I believe), who decided to go against the rules as well as not show any respect to those shooting the match by "practicing".


If you feel so strongly to mention this, maybe you should also feel strongly about getting your facts straight?

The two boys were simply trying to keep loose during the "Bronze" OR match. They were scheduled to compete against each other in the Gold/Silver match which immediately followed the Bronze medal match. Do you truely believe the "decided to go against the rules as well as not show any respect to those shooting the match (50 feet and 5 bales away)? I don't believe they were trying to disrespect anyone.

As soon as the judge told them that they weren't suppose to be there, they quickly left the line. 

In defense of the boys, it had been announced earlier in the event that the bales to the far edges of the field were for practicing.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Okay, okay...

Everyone just take a deep breath and SMILE ... 

The tournament director and club secretary are getting everything in order. The "official" results from the NAA office may be delayed for a few days while we get the official scorecards mailed in, along with the check to the NAA.

No harm, no foul. I can bet that the ones that forgot to turn in their cards won't forget again... :wink: And that's what we all want, I think.

I've said all along that there is no possible way on earth that you can get that many folks together in one place, and write down that many numbers, and not have something go wrong. This, to me, is a relatively minor thing that is easily corrected. I am convinced that nobody did anything more than simply forget, and we're all guilty of that from time to time.

As for the practicing during the bronze match, it would not have been an issue had we been able to provide enough targets for an alternate practice field. Then the kids could have easily gone off on a seperate field to warm up for their match. This is the way it's done at larger events. We will consider this for the future when we meet for our de-brief tonight. Perhaps we can run all the medal matches on one side of the field, and allow practice on the other. That would be simple enough.

Again, thanks to all who came. Everyone contributed in some small way, even if they just showed up and helped their kid string their bow. It takes a LOT of effort on everyone's part to pull these events off. 

Someday, one will go off without an error or controversy. Doubt I'll be alive to see it though... :wink: ha, ha, ha.

John.


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## JLorenti (Mar 17, 2004)

*Great Tournament....*

...John you and Patti and the whole group of event staff did a wonderful job putting on the SI CUP. The field was in great shape, your reccomendation for lodging at the Little grassy Lodge was also right on the mark. We not only enjoyed a well run tournament but we REALLY enjoyed the ******* Roundup.
It was pure fun. Thank you for all your efforts and work it certainly paid off.

The Lorenti's

P.S. Are you sure that Darrell is NOT A *******? Great Job on his part, very entertaining.


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## JOADMom (Jan 27, 2005)

limbwalker said:


> No harm, no foul. I can bet that the ones that forgot to turn in their cards won't forget again... :wink: And that's what we all want, I think.
> 
> John.


I agree, that's ultimately what everyone wants, but my experience is that letting them off the hook doesn't necessarily teach the lesson. At the risk of fanning the flames here, the SI Cup is a Jr. USAT ranking tournament - all archers vying for Jr. USAT should be able to expect that the playing field is level as regards rule enforcement at all the ranking tournaments. I'm not saying that this has happened here, only you are aware of all the circumstances, but it is something you might want to discuss at your tournament de-briefing.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Darrell is DEFINITELY a ******* at heart. And we all enjoyed having him call the line on Sunday afternoon.

JOADMom, I think folks will learn. We will discuss how to avoid the opportunity for problems like this next time around. I'm pretty sure everyone wants to see matters settled on the field, in a fair and equitable way. And I'm satisfied at this point, with all the correspondence I've read and recieved, that the scorecards and unauthorized practice were genuinely innocent mistakes. 

No way to forecast all of the possibilities in a complex event like this. We'll just try to head them off in the future.

Running a Jr. USAT event that includes Bowmen, Cub, Cadet, Junior and adult men and women is a VERY complicated thing. Probably the most complex of any outdoor event all year. The brackets and multiple target distances alone are mind boggling to sort out. A senior USAT or indoor event would be FAR easier to deal with. Maybe that's why some have said that JOAD Nationals is the toughest tournament to put on every year...

John.


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## CM JOAD (Oct 9, 2005)

JOADMom said:


> I agree, that's ultimately what everyone wants, but my experience is that letting them off the hook doesn't necessarily teach the lesson. At the risk of fanning the flames here, the SI Cup is a Jr. USAT ranking tournament - all archers vying for Jr. USAT should be able to expect that the playing field is level as regards rule enforcement at all the ranking tournaments. I'm not saying that this has happened here, only you are aware of all the circumstances, but it is something you might want to discuss at your tournament de-briefing.


I don't believe that anything that happened was done on purpose. Therefore, a smackdown so that they don't get "off the hook" seems somewhat inappropriate.


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## CM JOAD (Oct 9, 2005)

limbwalker said:


> Darrell is DEFINITELY a ******* at heart. And we all enjoyed having him call the line on Sunday afternoon.
> 
> JOADMom, I think folks will learn. We will discuss how to avoid the opportunity for problems like this next time around. I'm pretty sure everyone wants to see matters settled on the field, in a fair and equitable way. And I'm satisfied at this point, with all the correspondence I've read and recieved, that the scorecards and unauthorized practice were genuinely innocent mistakes.
> 
> ...


Well spoken. Thank you for putting out the fire.


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## cjmarcher (Oct 7, 2005)

*scorecards*

I'm sorry that me accidentally taking the scorecard off the field and on my way home with me, has caused problems. I just plain old forgot about it (which is on me) but....isn’t it supposed to be that you turn in the official scorecard for them to check everything over (making it official)...and then the awards get given out? And after the awards, nobody said anything nor before the awards about cards being missing. So naturally after the awards we all just packed up and headed home. Not thinking that I still had them attached to my quiver(the yellow card was on top of the green one so I didnt notice I still had it while packing up). I then received a call from Patty about the missing scorecard 10 1/2 hrs. later. She was very nice on the phone, and I feel that my dad and I were very cooperative about everything, and getting it in for USAT.

I would also like to apologize to the shooters and everyone else about us shooting on the far bail. I believe I speak for Adam and myself, that we had no intentions on disrespecting anyone at all, and when the judge told us we couldn’t be doing that we both got off the line, and sat back down. We were just trying to stay loose for our match.


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## dajalo (Jan 24, 2006)

*Its time to move on*

Whether anything was done on purpose or not at the SI Cup doesn't matter at this point, but no matter where a tournament is held, the archers and in some cases the parents need to pay closer attention to the announcements the judges give as well as being observant to what is going on around them. There is much to be learned just by watching what others do. If they don't understand something all it takes is a simple question. NEVER just assume something!

It may be of interest to some, to download the FITA Rule Book and the 2007 JOAD handbook. Both of these are available off the NAA website just go to the rules and regulations and the JOAD links. Granted some of the rules are confusing but they are there to make reference too.


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## Huntmaster (Jan 30, 2003)

cjmarcher said:


> I'm sorry that me accidentally taking the scorecard off the field and on my way home with me, has caused problems. I just plain old forgot about it (which is on me) but....isn’t it supposed to be that you turn in the official scorecard for them to check everything over (making it official)...and then the awards get given out? And after the awards, nobody said anything nor before the awards about cards being missing. So naturally after the awards we all just packed up and headed home. Not thinking that I still had them attached to my quiver(the yellow card was on top of the green one so I didnt notice I still had it while packing up). I then received a call from Patty about the missing scorecard 10 1/2 hrs. later. She was very nice on the phone, and I feel that my dad and I were very cooperative about everything, and getting it in for USAT.
> 
> I would also like to apologize to the shooters and everyone else about us shooting on the far bail. I believe I speak for Adam and myself, that we had no intentions on disrespecting anyone at all, and when the judge told us we couldn’t be doing that we both got off the line, and sat back down. We were just trying to stay loose for our match.


I think it's great that you're clearing the air. Very honorable thing to do. You'll probably know from now on:wink: 

Congrats on a successfull shoot!


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

> I'm sorry that me accidentally taking the scorecard off the field and on my way home with me, has caused problems. I just plain old forgot about it (which is on me) but....isn’t it supposed to be that you turn in the official scorecard for them to check everything over (making it official)...and then the awards get given out? And after the awards, nobody said anything nor before the awards about cards being missing. So naturally after the awards we all just packed up and headed home. Not thinking that I still had them attached to my quiver(the yellow card was on top of the green one so I didnt notice I still had it while packing up). I then received a call from Patty about the missing scorecard 10 1/2 hrs. later. She was very nice on the phone, and I feel that my dad and I were very cooperative about everything, and getting it in for USAT.
> 
> I would also like to apologize to the shooters and everyone else about us shooting on the far bail. I believe I speak for Adam and myself, that we had no intentions on disrespecting anyone at all, and when the judge told us we couldn’t be doing that we both got off the line, and sat back down. We were just trying to stay loose for our match.


Corey, way to step up. Nice way to represent for yourself and your group 

We'll "GET 'ER DUN" in true ******* fashion thanks to some quick action by the T.D. and by those archers who were anxious to get home... :wink:

Nice shooting BTW. 

John.


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## CM JOAD (Oct 9, 2005)

dajalo said:


> Whether anything was done on purpose or not at the SI Cup doesn't matter at this point, but no matter where a tournament is held, the archers and in some cases the parents need to pay closer attention to the announcements the judges give as well as being observant to what is going on around them. There is much to be learned just by watching what others do. If they don't understand something all it takes is a simple question. NEVER just assume something!
> 
> It may be of interest to some, to download the FITA Rule Book and the 2007 JOAD handbook. Both of these are available off the NAA website just go to the rules and regulations and the JOAD links. Granted some of the rules are confusing but they are there to make reference too.


Thank you for some very good advise! We will definitely try harder next time to meet or exceed your expectations.


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## JOADMom (Jan 27, 2005)

CM JOAD,

Sometimes the consequences of rule infractions can be painful or harsh and difficult to deal with, but if rules are fairly enforced then you get on with it and learn from the experience. Somehow "smackdown" has a different connotation to me, it is absolutely not what I intended to convey.

I regret if I in any way implied that any rules were broken on purpose - I was responding to an implication in Limbwalker's earlier post that rules may not have been enforced, to quote: 

_"Fortunately for them, Patty and Judy are very forgiving, and in the interest of the kids, we are making sure it all works out okay. 
I never expect these kids to be perfect, although I do expect them to do their best to follow the rules."_

Sometimes we do our best to do the right thing but still make a mistake. Are mistakes only mistakes when they are made on purpose?


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## CM JOAD (Oct 9, 2005)

JOADMom said:


> CM JOAD,
> 
> Sometimes the consequences of rule infractions can be painful or harsh and difficult to deal with, but if rules are fairly enforced then you get on with it and learn from the experience. Somehow "smackdown" has a different connotation to me, it is absolutely not what I intended to convey.
> 
> ...


JOADMom,

There was a lot of speculation and many hurtful things said BEFORE anyone actually talked to the accused Kids to find out their side of the story. Kids may learn from consequences, but they also learn to mistrust adults that jump to unsubstantiated conclusions. Luckily cool heads have prevailed, making this a non-issue before any blood was actually spilled.


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## X Killer (Mar 7, 2005)

My name is Adam, this is meant for nothing other to then to inform everyone my side of the story, and I also would like to start by saying that the club running the shoot did do a good job.

I was the other shooter in the gold medal match. I would like to address a few things. First off about the score card, I had asked a judge if I needed to turn in a score card and was told that they had all the info they needed, had been collected and that I may keep both copies. I then asked the judge to sign the green copy (the one that is now said needed to be turned in) for J.O.A.D qualification purposes. Another point is that the awards were given out, I feel that they should have seen the four (2 for each archer in the match) scorecards of the gold medal match before handing out any medals. The next issue is that of the practice it was announced at the start of the OR that we may practice, but it was never announced that practice was closed so we took that as it was still open for us to shoot. We were practicing together, so that means neither of us had an advantage over each other. Also we were seen by other judges and not asked to stop nor told that we could not be practicing, we took this as it was o.k. to continue to practice. As soon as someone asked us to step off the line we stepped off. dajalo quote said “It was brought to my attention this morning, from someone who was watching the tournament, how immature and disrespectful these 2 were.” I would like to say that I am very offended by this comment. I can not speak on behalf of Corey though I would like to say that this is very incorrect. I feel that neither of the two of us was immature nor disrespectful. I know for a fact that we are good friends and I greatly respect Corey. I also feel that neither of us was disrespectful to any other archer on or off the field at any time, I always make sure I use good sportsmanship. I do apologize for what has taken place and the delay that this has caused, though I do feel that the blame also must be spread around and not focused only at the archers. I hope this post is not taken the wrong way, I think with this issue aside this was an enjoyable shoot. And I would like to thank the Southern Illinois Archery for hosting the tournament.


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## c3hammer (Sep 20, 2002)

Just for another reference, practicing a few bales away from the other matches is quite common in World Cups and other international events.

Every WC I've been to, the world target trials and the Gold Cup have all had practice bales on one side of the field for archers to shoot at while other matches are going on. I'm surprised that this was not the case for those folks there.

Cheers,
pete


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## CM JOAD (Oct 9, 2005)

dajalo said:


> If they don't understand something all it takes is a simple question. NEVER just assume something!
> 
> It may be of interest to some, to download the FITA Rule Book and the 2007 JOAD handbook. Both of these are available off the NAA website just go to the rules and regulations and the JOAD links. Granted some of the rules are confusing but they are there to make reference too.


Thank you for the advice to "not assume" anything. So, instead of simply "assuming" that the boys were in fact breaking the rules because "someone" said rules were broken when they practiced during the bronze OR match, I looked up the specific practicing rule. Here is FITA Rules, Section 7.1.1.13.

_"For the Olympic Round, a practice area will be made available alongside the competition field, where atheletes still in the competition may practice during the elimination and Finals Round."_


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

> Every WC I've been to, the world target trials and the Gold Cup have all had practice bales on one side of the field for archers to shoot at while other matches are going on. I'm surprised that this was not the case for those folks there.


Pete, we would have liked to provide a practice area to the side of the field, but simply did not have enough targets to do so. This is one of the items we discussed in the committee meeting this evening. Hopefully next time we will have enough targets to provide a dedicated practice area far enough away from the competitions that it won't be an issue. As it was, the practice was going on 8-10 bales to the right of the ongoing Bronze medal match. It bothered some of those watching, so a judge asked the boys to stop and they agreed politely.

CM, we will make an effort to provide such in the future.

This was the first major outdoor event hosted by this small committee, and the first Jr. USAT ranking event. I certainly don't think it will be the last. These issues serve to educate everyone involved, and in a way I'm glad they came up. No major damage was done other than the usual ruffled feathers, and the competitors, parents and host committee is all the wiser because of it.

Adam, thanks for the reply and the kind words. We enjoyed having everyone, and feel that it went very well.

As both a host committee member and an archer, I continue to say that this was the best archery field I've ever shot on. I really believe that. 

John.


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## Serious Fun (May 12, 2003)

*Experience is the key to success.*

Experience is the key to success.
You can bet that Corey and Adam will insist that the score recording team gets their score card in the future.
I imagine the SI Cup will try to designate practice targets and reinforce communications to their archers too.

There is nothing better than experience when it comes to running a tournament.
Ideally the tournament director for the 2008 JOAD Nationals Championship would take part in the 2007 JOAD Nationals.
But it can’t always happen.

What I would like to encourage is a nurturing attitude.
Help the archers to be better archers down the road.
When an archer, needs correction, correct them fairly and in such a way that they want to continue with archery and invite their friends to join in.
It would be a shame if we lost a JOAD because they un intentionally miss-stepped.

Help tournaments by volunteering.
We all need to help to grow target archery for the future.

A hint, when volunteering, be persistent and observant, the tournament leadership has a lot going.
If they don’t need you at first, hang back and observe, odds are some task will come up.
When it does, volunteer again, odds are they forgot about you in the flurry of activity.

I love it when someone says to me a few times, “I am still here ready to help”
These persistent folks become tourney directors in the future… nice.
These persistent folks help too grow our sport.
I have never had too many volunteers!


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## CM JOAD (Oct 9, 2005)

Serious Fun said:


> Experience is the key to success.
> You can bet that Corey and Adam will insist that the score recording team gets their score card in the future.
> I imagine the SI Cup will try to designate practice targets and reinforce communications to their archers too.
> 
> ...


Bob, that is very well said. Thank you for YOUR nurturing attitude. We could ALL learn from your thoughtful words.


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## Nicely (Jun 13, 2002)

I've watched this thread for the last couple days and it seems honest mistakes were made. The practicing issue is easily confused as some shoots allow practicing during matches on bales away from the matches. The score card thing is by the letter of the law a DQ offense but I would be inclined to give the young archers a break as it was an honest mistake. I would further state that if an Adult did it I would also be inclined to give them a break as well,for the youth do not have a monopoly on numb skull mistakes I should know I'm the king of numb skullville.

Adam Gallant has shot for 5 years in my JOAD program and I can assure you he knowingly did nothing to disrespect anyone, I don't recall a more respectfull young man.

Matt
Nicely Equipped Archery


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Bob, that's some great advice and observations.

Experience really is the best teacher in this case, since there is little or no real guidance to follow for many of the important details. 

I am sorry that the relatively minor issues that did arise had to happen, but in a way I'm glad they did. Nobody is the worse for wear, and the tournament committee, archers and parents have all learned from it.

We look forward to hosting this event again next year, whether as a Jr. USAT event or not. And the "******* roundup" will definetly be on the schedule again. I can't believe how well that worked out. Not sure why more tournaments don't do this (although I know a few that do).

I'll post the brackets from that elimination round on the other thread...

John.


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## CM JOAD (Oct 9, 2005)

limbwalker said:


> No major damage was done other than the usual ruffled feathers, and the competitors, parents and host committee is all the wiser because of it. John.


Oh I think that Corey and Adam are still hurting quite a bit from some of the mean, inaccurate and deflamatory things that were said about them on ArcheryTalk. They stepped up and apologized for what they were perceived as doing, but I haven't seen any return apologies for the improper things that were said about them? Maybe some adults can learn from the boys "maturity"

Corey and I really did enjoy ourselves at the SI CUP. We thought it was really well organized and well run and I would recommend it to anyone. Thank you to everyone that was involved with putting on this event. 

Unfortunately, we probably won't be back. Not because of anything that has happened. Just because next year it will not be a Jr. Usat qualifier and the following year Corey will no longer be a Junior. It was definitely a fun shoot. Unfortunately, our budget can not afford a $1,000 for simply fun shoot. Make it an Adult USAT Qualifier, and we will be there!


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

> Maybe some adults can learn from the boys "maturity"


Yes, I think they could. The boys handled themselves well I think. As usual, it's the parents that were mostly out of order... :wink: If you deal with youth sports long enough (not just archery), you eventually get used to this and come to expect it. It's the same at my son's little league games. You learn where to sit during a ballgame so you don't get upset by what's being said about whom, and who is saying it... 

Ever since last year's Jr. World Team trials and the trip to Mexico, I've been hoping that the JOAD parents would just chill out. But overwhelmingly, the comments and feedback has been very positive. Some folks just know how to "go with the flow" better than others...

There IS a chance that next year's SI CUP will be an important event for Juniors and Cadets as well. Just need to work out the details and get approval.

In hindsight, I was expecting a lot more to go wrong than did, given our committee's relative lack of experience at outdoor events, and the increased complexity of hosting a JOAD outdoor tournament for all ages. The small number of issues may seem large to those affected, but all in all they were still small issues. And the T.D. and Committe will know exactly how to deal with them in the future, thanks to some good advice recently from Tom Green and Darrell Pace.

John.


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## Hoytemgood (Aug 19, 2006)

*Jr & Cadet*

John, it would be great if you could make this event an important one each year. It took us 14-15 hours to drive home due to construction and other issues, but all in all it is a central location and as you said, a great field. 

Just know you have our support if you need anything said to the NAA on your club's behalf.

I have sat back and watched the attacks back and forth on archery talk, especially this thread and have wondered when people will chill out. That goes for the attacks made prior to the shoot as well. I hope these issues can die down now and everyone just remember what a great shoot it was and how much fun they had.

Andy


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Andy, I think things are written here that would never be said in person. You can't read someone's attitude and body language over the internet. A lot of miscommunication and misinterpretation happens when all you have to work with is printed letters on a page.

I've met so many good people in archery that I enjoy spending time with. I know many that don't get along, but for the life of me I don't understand why. In different circumstances (i.e., their kid's ranking points not on the line), I think those folks would be very friendly to one another. Adreneline is always running high at these events, and people are excited and especially sensitive and emotional. I think that's a lot of it.

And there is more to it than that, but a lot of the folks I know simply got off on the wrong foot, and are too stubborn to talk it out. At least, that's my take on it. 

Thanks for your support. I agree that this is a good location, central to the U.S. and within driving distance for more folks than other tournament venues. If we can get that field every year - and the city of Carbondale is wanting to do this again - I think it would be great to host an annual ranking event here. Especially now that our committee is full of experienced problem-solvers... :wink:

John.


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## CM JOAD (Oct 9, 2005)

limbwalker said:


> There IS a chance that next year's SI CUP will be an important event for Juniors and Cadets as well. Just need to work out the details and get approval.
> 
> John.


Are you attempting to get the JOAD Nationals in Carbondale? We would greatly be in favor of that!


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## dajalo (Jan 24, 2006)

First of all, I would like to thank everyone who helped with and or attended this year's tournament-------------what an experience!!!!

As John mentioned in an earlier post, this years SI Cup was organized and hosted by a very small group, 8 adults and 4 club members, it was also our 1st attempt at hosting an outdoor tournament. With having such a small support/organizing group, I personally think we did an excellent job at pulling this tournament off and I believe we will be hosting it again next year.

The SI Archers JOAD club is still in the process of "healing" after its original leaders relocated, almost 18 months ago, leaving us with no place to shoot or to call home. By the skin of our teeth, we have survived up to this point, we have a "home" now and we are moving forward. The club only owns 14 target bales, which we originally thought would be enough for this tournament. We realized just the week prior to the tournament that we needed more bales. In a near panic, we were able to beg and thankfully, borrow an additional 10 target bales. I do wish we could have found more bales to borrow thus allowing us to provide a proper practice area. 

I was 1 of the 8 adults who put in 12-14 hours each day for all 3 days, I have got to say, by Sunday night I was pooped. Mind you, I am not complaining about being tired, I would put the time in repeatedly for the benefit and growth of all "our" kids as well as for the sport of archery. Now 4 days later; I am not nearly as exhausted or irritable as I was earlier in the week when all of the positive and negative postings were taking place. I now see things more clearly; and If I said anything to hurt anyone's feelings, I am sorry.


In closing, life is very complicated and no matter what we do in this life of ours, mistakes will and are going to be made. We need to recognize those mistakes not as errors but as learning tools and do just that, learn from them, striving not to make the same ones again. Through this learning process, we all can and will become a much better, smarter person.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

CM, I'd rather not say yet. I need to talk to a lot of folks first, but what we may be able to offer will indeed be very important and helpful to the other Jr. USAT events.

John.


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## Hoytemgood (Aug 19, 2006)

dajalo said:


> First of all, I would like to thank everyone who helped with and or attended this year's tournament-------------what an experience!!!!
> 
> As John mentioned in an earlier post, this years SI Cup was organized and hosted by a very small group, 8 adults and 4 club members, it was also our 1st attempt at hosting an outdoor tournament. With having such a small support/organizing group, I personally think we did an excellent job at pulling this tournament off and I believe we will be hosting it again next year.
> 
> ...


Thanks for all your hard work. It was a great event. You guys can be proud of what you accomplished.


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## Archery Mom (Apr 2, 2003)

John and everyone that worked so hard to put on this shoot...

We want to say thank you so much for a great shoot. The whole thing was handled in a very professional manner all the way down to the heartaches on here. 

WE are crossing our fingers that the "hush" comes to light and that we will be seeing all of you again next year.

The kids all seemed to have a great time and i think they even enjoyed the good ole blue grass music at times....:wink: I know we got a huge kick out of watching them dancing a jig coming back from the targets...

There were several things we learned and have brought back home to help make our tournaments even better. 

Thank you again for all of your hard work and dedication to the cause, which we sometimes forget is the "kids".

See you soon (hopefully)
Mechell


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## TexARC (Mar 5, 2003)

Request for your webmaster - 
for results - it would be nice if y'all created a dedicated webpage for the results, so that it would not change in the future (ditto for the photos). That way a reference can be posted elsewhere that will not change and become inaccurate down the road (such as on http://www.usaarcheryrecords.org). Right now the results are at
http://www.siarchers.org/page4.html
and somehow I have to guess that page4.html won't always refer to the results page.  ?


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## JOADMom (Jan 27, 2005)

*New National Records*

Congratulations to Adam Gallant & Forrest Blakely on their new Star FITA records, great shooting!

And kudos to Texarc on the fantastic job he has done and is doing with the National records!


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

> Request for your webmaster -
> for results - it would be nice if y'all created a dedicated webpage for the results, so that it would not change in the future (ditto for the photos). That way a reference can be posted elsewhere that will not change and become inaccurate down the road (such as on http://www.usaarcheryrecords.org). Right now the results are at
> http://www.siarchers.org/page4.html
> and somehow I have to guess that page4.html won't always refer to the results page. ?


Ron, I am the webmaster  But I'm not nearly as good at it as you are. The web host software I'm using is being difficult, and I've not spent the time to learn how to manage it properly. Actually, I've not needed to until now. That website has been up and running since 2004, but we have only hosted 2 major events in the past year and a half that would even warrant a seperate results site.

This is something I'll work on. If we end up hosting national tournaments each year, I'll need to get a better, more efficient website set up.

John.


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## TexARC (Mar 5, 2003)

hey, John - the site you have set up is clean and crisp, not cluttered at all (like another site<ahem> has gotten to be... 
It was just a request/suggestion - not a criticism! Sorry it wasn't more obtuse  
Something that MAY be a mistake on my part (but I doubt it) is to assume that at this point in the chaosnet development, any page that has been put up, will never truly go away. It is more or less, forever and knowledge as we know it will never be the same . 

There's even a nifty archive website that shows pages through history (such as it is).
Sherman's Wayback Machine 
Search texasarchery.org and click on it's first entry from 2000 - kinda different from today's page....


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

> It was just a request/suggestion - not a criticism!


Yea, I know. That's how I took it. I really have to be motivated (and in a creative mood) to update our site. Not sure how I can get the brackets to show up on there from an Excel file just yet. Lately, I've had plenty of trouble just getting pictures up. Seems the host service became so popular that their servers aren't what they used to be...

But I can't complain, since as you point out, things have surely come a long way. The service I use does most of the work for you, otherwise I'd never have had a chance - since I'm certainly not going to learn how to write HTML code...:embara:

John.


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## TexARC (Mar 5, 2003)

limbwalker said:


> ...I really have to be motivated (and in a creative mood) to update our site... John.


 I know exactly what you mean - doing the TSAA newsletter takes a similar attitude - got to get a special motivation going that isn't always something I can create on demand...
fortunately it comes often enough...


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## Serious Fun (May 12, 2003)

*SI Cup as a semi permanent JR USAT Qualifier*

I, personally like the SI Cup as the semi permanent fourth Jr USAT Qualifier in non Jr Outdoor World Team Trials years.
It would be ideal for the SI Cup to also be a Jr USAT Qualifier in years where the US Jr Outdoor World Team Trials are held in conjunction with another Jr USAT qualifier. 
Example: in 2006 the Jr Outdoor World Team Trails were held in conjunction and immediately after the 2006 National Target Championship.
This way a JOAD can “miss” a qualifier location and time period, for what ever reason, and still take part fully in Jr USAT.
The experience of the SI Cup staff helps to insure a quality event.
The SI Cup would make a great USA Jr Outdoor World Team Trails host when the Jr Outdoor World Team Championships are held earlier in the summer.


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## Jim Pruitte (May 27, 2002)

Agreed on ALL points. :wink:



Serious Fun said:


> I, personally like the SI Cup as the semi permanent fourth Jr USAT Qualifier in non Jr Outdoor World Team Trials years.
> It would be ideal for the SI Cup to also be a Jr USAT Qualifier in years where the US Jr Outdoor World Team Trials are held in conjunction with another Jr USAT qualifier.
> Example: in 2006 the Jr Outdoor World Team Trails were held in conjunction and immediately after the 2006 National Target Championship.
> This way a JOAD can “miss” a qualifier location and time period, for what ever reason, and still take part fully in Jr USAT.
> ...


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

> Agreed on ALL points


As are we (now that our committee has had a chance to discuss it) 

What Bob wrote above is the short version of the proposal we plan to submit to make the SI Cup the 4th qualifying event. It would be nice to be able to miss one outdoor event and still have a chance for a kid to make Jr. USAT. The seniors already have this opportunity.

Anyway, we'll work on it.

Right now, we have three families that are keeping this alive down here. We are all agreed to keep it going for several more years, and hopefully during that time we will find some more families that are committed to target archery, and not just teaching little johnny how to shoot foam deer at 17 yards...  Not that there is anything wrong with that - I do it too - but it's so hard to see parent's eyes glaze over when you start talking about traveling to tournaments for ranking points and shooting round targets outdoors at long distance, etc., etc., etc.

John.


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## Serious Fun (May 12, 2003)

limbwalker said:


> As are we (now that our committee has had a chance to discuss it)
> 
> What Bob wrote above is the short version of the proposal we plan to submit to make the SI Cup the 4th qualifying event. It would be nice to be able to miss one outdoor event and still have a chance for a kid to make Jr. USAT. The seniors already have this opportunity.
> 
> ...


Thank you Southern Illinois Archers and JOAD Club and best of luck!


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