# Float pattern. What you do and why.



## Khaslem (Mar 19, 2012)

So like every target archer I spend a fair amount of time adjusting weights and holding weight and anchor point and draw length and largely seeking a steadier float pattern. But I was reminded today that I don't have a float pattern. I try to let the pin sit in the middle and as it moves, typically from left to right, I execute the shot when I feel the pin approaching the middle. I have seen archers who settle from the top and others who draw rigidly level and then there is me. I draw semi-high (not a sky draw by any means) and then once I am in the yellow I start the waiting game which is largely hoping the pin will decide to sit in the middle long enough to execute. I have heard of people who make a small figure-eight which seems like a lot of purposeful movement that I can't see as beneficial but I would like to hear what you see as your pin sits in the yellow. And please refrain from saying things like "I just hold so steady that my pin never leaves the X". Unless you have a name I am going to recognize from the pro circuit. Surely there are people like me who are average shooters, but have a more thought out sight picture during their execution. Or does everyone do what I do and just wait and hope. Would love to hear people's experiences.


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## N7709K (Dec 17, 2008)

If I do my part my dot never leaves big 10 and rarely leaves the 10 at 50m(never leaves the yellow on calm days). Dl is down to half twists and the bow is weighted to work in conjunction with my shot. Idk what my dot does, only when it's on or off- in all practicality what your dot does for the most part doesn't matter. If you have a pattern, left to right flutter say, that gives a strong tell as to what you need to fix to bring your hold in and steady things up; when it just floats there isn't really any benefit to watching it. 

You shouldn't be waiting for your dot to get to the middle and sit; when you hit anchor and put the dot in the middle your shot needs to start. Dl and bar adjustments will bring most of that inline and then it's onto form changes and tweaks . Depending on how developed and mastered your shot is it may be an entirely setup based issue...


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## Mestang99 (Jan 10, 2013)

My game took a huge jump this year when I finally started to understand and embrace what Jacob just told you. I shoot pins and short stabs so my rig is even more sensitive and I would get sea sick if I tried to study my float. One day you will just realize it doesn't matter what your pin or dot does. It matters how clean your shot is. Studying float is a tuning tool, but has NO place in your shot sequence. While tuning I document what I see in my float and what affect any changes have on my float. (Actually I don't do much of this after buying Apptitune) After my stabilization is set, I forget about my float. I aim and burn a hole in the X. Sharp focus is key. You can't focus on a moving target...


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## Khaslem (Mar 19, 2012)

Thanks for the replies! So what changes do you make when battling a crosswind? Because I think I have my stabilization pretty close and it's not a "flutter from left to right but a fairly slow transition against any wind. Perfectly still conditions and I can hold in the 10 at 50 meter (it's my release that makes me miss those shots, not my sight picture, haha). So what do you expect to see in windy conditions? When I shoot in the wind I sometimes wait a long time for the perfect moment to execute and I feel steady and concentrated but too often the shot feels good, but impacts poorly so I am lead to believe that somewhere in my shot cycle my form has broken although I haven't been able to isolate it yet. I would expect this type of change if I had been holding my breath or shifting my positioning, but at least to me it doesn't seem to be the case that I am. So what do you see/do in windy conditions?


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## Praeger (Jan 7, 2011)

Khaslem said:


> Thanks for the replies! So what changes do you make when battling a crosswind? Because I think I have my stabilization pretty close and it's not a "flutter from left to right but a fairly slow transition against any wind. Perfectly still conditions and I can hold in the 10 at 50 meter (it's my release that makes me miss those shots, not my sight picture, haha). So what do you expect to see in windy conditions? When I shoot in the wind I sometimes wait a long time for the perfect moment to execute and I feel steady and concentrated but too often the shot feels good, but impacts poorly so I am lead to believe that somewhere in my shot cycle my form has broken although I haven't been able to isolate it yet. I would expect this type of change if I had been holding my breath or shifting my positioning, but at least to me it doesn't seem to be the case that I am. So what do you see/do in windy conditions?


Tough to answer as windy conditions can vary so much. If the wind is constant, I let the bubble move towards the direction of the wind, then focus on my shot. Gusting winds are unpredictable (and generally rare on most of the field courses I shoot) which I either wait out, or make a command shot when the pin has settled as much as it's going to. I do practice a drill with my hinge release so on the occasions I need to squeeze off the shot so that it is not just "punching it".


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## bigHUN (Feb 5, 2006)

I am shooting with cascade, relax style release, and have several of them, the #8's and 10's, and I set the trigger sensitivity different.
For practice shooting the spring tension is softer I can hold longer, most common timing is 5-6 seconds 
but with gusting wind I force myself (yes with wind I force holding the bow, holding on the ring and holding on the trigger) to hold it because if I just think relaxing the thumb finger muscles it will or could just go of instantly....


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## montigre (Oct 13, 2008)

Like Praeger, if the wind is constant, and I'm shooting in the open, I bubble a little into the wind and concentrate on making a strong shot. If the wind is coming in gusts and I'm shooting in the open, I pay attention to what I'm feeling on my cheeks, what the flags are signalling, widen my stance a little and wait for a slight lull--gusts usually only last a couple of seconds, so I just wait out the worst of it and take my shot when it has passed. 

One day, a couple of years ago, my group was shooting the last target of a field round. The weather was turning bad quickly and a pretty bad storm was blowing in. There was no lightning, so we decided to finish the target--a 45yd walk up that shot 42 degrees down into a gully. Well, just as we were about to take our shots at the 30 yarder, a small F0 tornado passed over the range. The winds were wicked to say the least, but we leaned our bodies into it, made strong shots and scored our final arrows of the day before running to the safety of the clubhouse--I shot a jarlicker and my target partner nailed the X....Sheesh....

Here's a shot of that target on a good day...
View attachment 1938093


Anyway, moral of the story is that it is a good idea to practice as much as possible in less-than-perfect conditions so you learn exactly what changes you need to make based on your knowledge of your form and your equipment in these conditions and when the unexpected hits, you'll be better prepared for it.....


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## CarlV (Mar 12, 2008)

A little different technique and some advice for shooting in the wind.

I normally shoot a hinge for all target games, when the wind is a factor - I'll sometimes switch to a Stan thumb release. If the wind is constant, I'll continue to use the hinge and then do like the others above and bubble into the wind - (advice) on a calm day, did you bubble over and see how it actually affects your impact? On my target rig, a full bubble at 40 yards will move the arrow over 6" and it will hit about 2" lower. Enough for a slight sight change in elevation.

Gusting wind - different story. I'll shoot my Stan thumb release set relatively hot such that I can command the shot up to the point that I'll not call it punching, but others may. I don't really practice much shooting this hinge this way as I don't want to develop bad habits, I shoot it just enough to know what to expect. Works good for me.

(advice) Gusting wind - I'm an old sailor and learned some stuff from an old Master Chief about waves (and other fluids). Wind is just another fluid, and acts like it more often than not. Every 13th wave (or wind gust) is a bigger one, and following that bigger wave (wind gust) there will normally be a short period of relatively calm. It's almost always long enough to command a good shot.

Ask a surfer about this phenomenon.

So, if you see me just standing at the line looking like I'm not doing anything, then I'll draw (during the strong gust) and command a shot shortly thereafter (during the lull) you'll know what I'm doing.

Most of the time this works quite well, sometimes it doesn't.


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## N7709K (Dec 17, 2008)

Steady wind I click bout half the distance I'm getting blown out of the 10 and then favor the windward side of the 10. Gusty winds I pick up the tempo a little and play the wind when possible. Depending on the wind whether it's a crosswind, headwind, etc I may just shoot it the same as a calm day; kinda depends on how movement I'm seeing


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## cbrunson (Oct 25, 2010)

N7709K said:


> Steady wind I click bout half the distance I'm getting blown out of the 10 and then favor the windward side of the 10. Gusty winds I pick up the tempo a little and play the wind when possible. Depending on the wind whether it's a crosswind, headwind, etc I may just shoot it the same as a calm day; kinda depends on how movement I'm seeing


I had a wicked down draft, slight head/ left wind last night practicing for Redding. About 10” high and right put me just out the bottom of an 8” circle, at 101 yds. It can move a lot at that distance, even with skinny arrows. It was a great practice.


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## N7709K (Dec 17, 2008)

I hate tailwinds. We didn't get much updrafts in mn, but the humidity sucked- from 70% to like 105% is awesome for sight tapes. 

Running a low CoG shows real quick in the wind tho


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## montigre (Oct 13, 2008)

N7709K said:


> but the humidity sucked- from 70% to like 105% is awesome for sight tapes.


That's something I am trying to figure out the finer points of ....does not seem to be a consistent fix for wild swings in humidity during a 3-4+ hour competition.


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## ride394 (Oct 16, 2006)

I kind of wait and hope like you do. But I notice that setting my front shoulder properly, and having my rear elbow at the correct height and my anchor really locked in seem to play the biggest roles. Also, my cam timing plays a big part in how my bow holds. If i have the stops hit at the same time or the top cam hit ~1/16" early I seem to shake a lot. I prefer my top cam advanced by ~1/8". In the wind I stay on my couch, or just poke and hope lol.


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## sota (Aug 2, 2013)

Pardon a newbie for chiming in but... Are y'all allowed to use a weather meter? By that i mean something like a Kestrel. It tells the wind, temp, humidity, etc. Are you allowed to look at a log book for info before stepping up to the line?
I come from a firearms background. Tactical rifle comps were my thing in Cali. We all kept log books for our comeups and leads. 
Does anyone keep a log book for archery? I'm thinking it might be helpful.


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## CarlV (Mar 12, 2008)

sota said:


> Pardon a newbie for chiming in but... Are y'all allowed to use a weather meter? By that i mean something like a Kestrel. It tells the wind, temp, humidity, etc. Are you allowed to look at a log book for info before stepping up to the line?
> I come from a firearms background. Tactical rifle comps were my thing in Cali. We all kept log books for our comeups and leads.
> Does anyone keep a log book for archery? I'm thinking it might be helpful.


Yes, we could use a Kestrel if we wanted to. Could be very useful for wind - hmmmm....I wonder what those puppies cost?

Log book, that's a different story. I use a small log book that fits into my quiver to record changes I've made or might want to make, sight settings for oddball targets for a specific range, normally the cut I need to make. Notes on how hard I have to bubble over for different situations, etc.

A good example of the value here is that I know (from experience) that if I'm shooting one of the further left lanes in the afternoon at our local club, the light comes in the window near the butts such that it tends to pull my arrows about 1 1/2" left only on the top target and doesn't on the bottom target. This is no biggie for me as I have it written down how far to adjust my sight to keep my arrows inside-out on the X ring. I've also shot my bow against the blue tape and moved my sights to see where the arrows land per turn of the sight dials rotation, both height and windage. On my Axcel sight, I get 2" per rotation vertical, and 1 1/2 inches horizontal per rotation at 20 yards. I keep this information written on the back inside cover of my log book. This it easy for me to adjust for different conditions I might encounter. My wife's sight is a SureLoc and it obviously has different settings. Some days I'm sure it's just me, how I'm holding the bow or something else I'm doing a little different. Sure gives me confidence when all my arrows are shading to one side and I know exactly how far to adjust my sights to compensate. Others that just try to sneak up on an adjustment like this just seem to never get there, and it costs them points.

Good questions. Bring your precision rifle experience with you for archery and you will find it very useful.


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## montigre (Oct 13, 2008)

sota said:


> Pardon a newbie for chiming in but... Are y'all allowed to use a weather meter? By that i mean something like a Kestrel. It tells the wind, temp, humidity, etc. Are you allowed to look at a log book for info before stepping up to the line? I come from a firearms background. Tactical rifle comps were my thing in Cali. We all kept log books for our comeups and leads. Does anyone keep a log book for archery? I'm thinking it might be helpful.


Very good points. I, like many, keep a small log book in my quiver listing equipment changes I've made, notes about unusual or difficult targets at various clubs, my mental outlook during a particular competition and its results, issues shooting in different weather conditions, etc. I also have a little Kestrel device hooked to my quiver belt that I primarily use when shooting FITA-type competitions. 

I believe it is important in developing overall target accuracy to keep notes of these types of changes and in what types of environments they are shot in. In doing so, a pattern may immerge that may assist someone to know what changes to make to improve their hold on target, their approach to a game, to be one step ahead of environmental factors, and to be less susceptible to being "caught off guard" at an important competition.


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## sota (Aug 2, 2013)

Carl,
If you want to look into Kestrels. The 4500 is a good one. Here is a link if you wanna look into them
http://kestrelmeters.com/
I hope it helps. If i might suggest the lower level one i'd look at would be a 2500. I think it has most of the features you might need. I did a quick search 
http://www.pricegrabber.com/kestrel-2500-products/


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## CarlV (Mar 12, 2008)

sota said:


> Carl,
> If you want to look into Kestrels. The 4500 is a good one. Here is a link if you wanna look into them
> http://kestrelmeters.com/
> I hope it helps. If i might suggest the lower level one i'd look at would be a 2500. I think it has most of the features you might need. I did a quick search
> http://www.pricegrabber.com/kestrel-2500-products/


Thanks, Sota

I've already talked to a friend of mine that shoots Camp Perry every year. He says he has several and is willing to lend/sell me one.


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## N7709K (Dec 17, 2008)

I've learned my clicks and just make adjustments off what I'm seeing down range; no notes, just time behind the bow


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## CarlV (Mar 12, 2008)

N7709K said:


> no notes, just time behind the bow


Some day, that will fail you.


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## N7709K (Dec 17, 2008)

I'm not worried- put the time in to know my gear, knowing my gear won't fail me. I don't need to write down that in such an such day with this wind an this sun I shot x; cause that isn't what matters. If I shot 72 good shots I know where the score will fall regardless of conditions.

No offense, but if you have to write down click values you don't shoot enough


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## cbrunson (Oct 25, 2010)

I agree with Jacob here. I still like to leave a little of it to the feel of the shot and knowing my bow.


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## CarlV (Mar 12, 2008)

N7709K said:


> No offense, but if you have to write down click values you don't shoot enough


Kind of full of yourself, eh?


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## N7709K (Dec 17, 2008)

not secure enough with your own abilities? 

in practical applications notes don't really do you any good; not on the field. If a storm kicks up, temp drops 30deg, wind picks up and it starts to rain all in about 15min you gotta roll with it and keep shooting 10's. Good shot and its not in the middle, give it clicks and roll a 59.... Get into matches or team matches and you have no time to consult if things change... not saying notes don't have a place, but not committing clicks to memory through repetition shows you don't put in enough time behind the bow. That aside one of the only things that Brady and Jake have passed on to me is to learn your clicks... so take their word for it?


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## CarlV (Mar 12, 2008)

N7709K said:


> No offense, but if you have to write down click values you don't shoot enough





N7709K said:


> not secure enough with your own abilities?



I didn't come here to get into an internet pissing match with you, or listen to someone that thinks they are so "expert" that it's "OK" to be condescending to others.

I shoot plenty, I'm secure in my abilities. 'Nuff said on that.

Say I come back to a particularly difficult (for me) target on a field course. I've successfully shot this target before with a small sight change that I wrote down in my notebook. What the heck is wrong with referring to my notebook to remember how to change my sight to shoot this target successfully. Should I simply remember how to do it? Must be an ego thing.

Be careful of judging others. You don't know them. You aren't that important. You couldn't possibly know about the horrific motorcycle accident that I was involved in 6 years ago that left me with permanent cognitive memory issues, now could you? I use a notebook.


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## Blue X (Dec 22, 2007)

Lets stay friendly here fellows. 

If one guy needs to write stuff down and he furnishes his on pen and paper then so be it and if another can keep it all in his head from shooting a lot and he furnishes his own ideas and mind then so be it. We all pay separate entry fees, do what ever you want to when your on the line.

It all fun, thats why we do it. 

Argue with your inlaws for stress relief and get along with your archery friends to boost your scores.
Blue X


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## montigre (Oct 13, 2008)

Although I do keep a notebook with me to record things as I have mentioned, I do not reference it while shooting in competition--it is used primarily as a practice aid or to read over when I get back to the hotel. I do believe, as Jacob stated, that it is very important to really know your equipment so you know how much to bubble on a target on a hill or in the wind, or how many clicks a target directly inline with the sun will throw your perceived sighting off, how the release will fire when soaked, etc. 

The notebook is also used as a memory access for me--if I write something down, I am more likely to remember it in a future stressful situation--that's just the way I am wired. So, I personally use and rely on both Jacob and CarlIV's methods. No harm, no foul...:wink:


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## N7709K (Dec 17, 2008)

Learn twists in and out as well- travel to a new venue and float opens, allens come put and twists go on. Feels short, couple come out. Depending on the bow you shoot all you need is an Allen/old axle or a piece of broom stick to make changes on the fly.


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## montigre (Oct 13, 2008)

N7709K said:


> Learn twists in and out as well- travel to a new venue and float opens, allens come put and twists go on. Feels short, couple come out. Depending on the bow you shoot all you need is an Allen/old axle or a piece of broom stick to make changes on the fly.


Understood. Thanks. :wink:


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## Fury90flier (Jun 27, 2012)

CarlV said:


> I didn't come here to get into an internet pissing match with you, or listen to someone that thinks they are so "expert" that it's "OK" to be condescending to others.
> 
> I shoot plenty, I'm secure in my abilities. 'Nuff said on that.
> 
> ...


there are a couple things that can cause this but it's not the motorcycle accident that's causing this...you're just getting old, I forgot what the other thing is.


I understand what he's saying about needing or NOT needing a notebook...you simply get a feel for it. The time it takes to move sights, ask a computer to give you an answer- the conditions change..


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## CarlV (Mar 12, 2008)

Fury90flier said:


> it's not the motorcycle accident that's causing this...you're just getting old,


OK Doc

And I've been to Katy....you've got cable TV, don't ya?


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## fanio (Feb 1, 2011)

N7709K said:


> Learn twists in and out as well- travel to a new venue and float opens, allens come put and twists go on. Feels short, couple come out. Depending on the bow you shoot all you need is an Allen/old axle or a piece of broom stick to make changes on the fly.


What do you mean "twists"? Twists in/out of the string?


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## montigre (Oct 13, 2008)

fanio said:


> What do you mean "twists"? Twists in/out of the string?


The limbs...


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## N7709K (Dec 17, 2008)

Twists into/out of the string and not as important but learn how much one twist into the buss and out of the control affects the top rotation and sync. Depending on the day your float will change a bit- carry a couple spare oz of weight and play with a couple twists in or out to get the hold you want.


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## TCR1 (Dec 22, 2004)

N7709K said:


> If I do my part my dot never leaves big 10 and rarely leaves the 10 at 50m(never leaves the yellow on calm days). Dl is down to half twists and the bow is weighted to work in conjunction with my shot. Idk what my dot does, only when it's on or off- in all practicality what your dot does for the most part doesn't matter. If you have a pattern, left to right flutter say, that gives a strong tell as to what you need to fix to bring your hold in and steady things up; when it just floats there isn't really any benefit to watching it.
> 
> You shouldn't be waiting for your dot to get to the middle and sit; when you hit anchor and put the dot in the middle your shot needs to start. Dl and bar adjustments will bring most of that inline and then it's onto form changes and tweaks . Depending on how developed and mastered your shot is it may be an entirely setup based issue...


Jacob,
Maybe i'm looking into it more than I should, but would you mind lending your thought to something I had heard in the past? Bear in mind this was 5-6 years ago so I may be a bit confused.

I was told by a particular archer that he tuned his "FITA" bow a little shorter than his normal indoor set up. His reasoning was that when the bow was set as such, the pin would tend to sit steadier for longer on the baby x, but when it would move, it made big movements. However, whether it was a vegas 10 or a vegas 9 didn't matter though as in FITA they both scored 9. However, on his normal indoor setup, he adjusted hids DL o that the float would stay within the Vegas 10. 

Do you use the amount of float on your sight pin as an indicator of set up? Your immediately previous post (not the one quoted) suggests you do.

Also, how do you use a broomstick to make changes on the fly (am I missing a joke?)?


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## N7709K (Dec 17, 2008)

Broomstick is bout perfect size to peg a Mathews cam, hoyts take allens or axles.

Tuning dl a couple twists short does lead to better fita scores; you'll shoot 10's and big 9's but a 297 is a 297, doesn't matter where those three dropped were. For Vegas and blue face you have to hit all the big ones; dl a twist or two longer or a touch weaker arrow leads to lower x/io's counts but you hit all the big ones. It doesn't take much; 3 twists is a big difference in sight picture and how it holds. 

Myself I tune until my sight picture is correct- when that's right, dl is right.


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