# Carbon Arrows with Overdraw



## Fire&Ice (Aug 28, 2008)

Welcome to the site, im somewhat new to

I have an over draw on mine. I also shoot 27" I have carbon from day one they are cut 27" but make sure you rest works for carbon as far as size. not sure if this helps..


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## hoytarchery999 (Nov 18, 2008)

does your bow have built in overdraw or is it an overdraw rest my old magnatec has it built in.


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## bfisher (Nov 30, 2002)

hoytarchery999 said:


> does your bow have built in overdraw or is it an overdraw rest my old magnatec has it built in.


 His bow does not have a built-in overdraw. It's an add-on.

Seriously, do a lot of homework about what shafts to choose. There are carbon arrows and there are carbon arrows. You can find arrows from 5.5 grain per inch up to about 12 grains per inch. You need to figure which would give you enough mass weight so as to not destroy your bow. Shooting a light arrow for speed is OK, but you can't get parts for your bow any more so why take a chance of damaging it? You need to come up with an arrow that weighs about 6 grains per pound of draw weight. That means total arrow weight; tip, shaft, fletching, insert, nock and all.

The standard these days is 5 grains per pound, but bows are built with better component today and can handle more stress.

My advice also would be to take the overdraw off and mount the rest on the bow. You'll end up with better accuracy potential and still get all the speed you desire. Usually a longer arrow will be more accurate, especially with broadheads.

For some research you could get on Gold Tip's website, click on Products, then Build Your Own Arrow. There are lots of options and the calculator will figure the finished arrow weight when you're done. I'd shoot for something weighing about 400 grains.

You don't necessarily have to get Gold Tip arrows, but you can use this info for a guideline.


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## DXTdaveRN (Oct 5, 2008)

*accuracy potential*

How does removing my overdraw give me a better accuracy potential, as it sits I shoot dime-sized groups at 30+ yards all day. I am a bow hunter, not a professional olympic target archer (although I've thought of getting into some competition shooting on the side). How much more accurate do I have to be? I shoot 100gr broadheads and these new carbon arrows I have show a rating of 8.2grains per inch. I'm just trying to figure out whether cutting them to 27inches, like how I've been shooting my aluminums, will cause any problems or would I be able to shoot them at a longer length from my current setup and if there would be any advantages or disadvantages either way. I appreciate your input though.


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## X-Tech (Nov 13, 2008)

DXTdaveRN said:


> How does removing my overdraw give me a better accuracy potential, as it sits I shoot dime-sized groups at 30+ yards all day. I am a bow hunter, not a professional olympic target archer (although I've thought of getting into some competition shooting on the side). How much more accurate do I have to be? I shoot 100gr broadheads and these new carbon arrows I have show a rating of 8.2grains per inch. I'm just trying to figure out whether cutting them to 27inches, like how I've been shooting my aluminums, will cause any problems or would I be able to shoot them at a longer length from my current setup and if there would be any advantages or disadvantages either way. I appreciate your input though.


Take a meter/yard stick and hold one end and draw it across your other hand until you get to the other end. Wiggle the back end of the meter stick and you will notice the front of the meter stick doesn't move much; this depicts a bow without an overdraw. 

Now move the hand that you drew the meter stick across towards you about 12 inches and wiggle the end of the meter stick closest to you, see how much the front of the arrow moves now; this depicts the affect of an overdraw set-up.

I would also recommend removing the overdraw with a carbon set-up.

If you're shooting dime sized groups at 30+ yards all day, I'd buy myself a ticket to Vegas ASAP to get some of that $$$! :darkbeer::wink:


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## bfisher (Nov 30, 2002)

DXTdaveRN said:


> How does removing my overdraw give me a better accuracy potential, as it sits I shoot dime-sized groups at 30+ yards all day. I am a bow hunter, not a professional olympic target archer (although I've thought of getting into some competition shooting on the side). How much more accurate do I have to be? I shoot 100gr broadheads and these new carbon arrows I have show a rating of 8.2grains per inch. I'm just trying to figure out whether cutting them to 27inches, like how I've been shooting my aluminums, will cause any problems or would I be able to shoot them at a longer length from my current setup and if there would be any advantages or disadvantages either way. I appreciate your input though.



I would also have to agree with what X-Tech said. You asked a question. I gave you my best advice based on over 35 years of shooting, both competitvely and for bowhunting. I have used overdraws in the past and know they can lead to accuracy problems---by the shooter.

I would also say that if you can shoot dime sized groups all day, then you need toget on the 3D and target circuit with exactly the equipment you are presently shooting. Make no changes. There is lots of money to be made and companies looking for shooters with the ability to shoot like that. I'd almost guarantee that you'd never have to work for a living again.


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## DXTdaveRN (Oct 5, 2008)

X-Tech said:


> Take a meter/yard stick and hold one end and draw it across your other hand until you get to the other end. Wiggle the back end of the meter stick and you will notice the front of the meter stick doesn't move much; this depicts a bow without an overdraw.
> 
> Now move the hand that you drew the meter stick across towards you about 12 inches and wiggle the end of the meter stick closest to you, see how much the front of the arrow moves now; this depicts the affect of an overdraw set-up.
> 
> ...


Thanks for your object lesson...I can certainly see what you mean...but I don't wiggle my arrows around when at full draw and I don't shoot fingers, so I haven't noticed a problem like you're describing (my paper tuning also confirms this for me).This is definately an older bow setup. When this bow was originally set up, the overdraw was the popular standard and used by a great many people with excellent results. I really don't want or need to reinvent this bow. I have taken many deer over the years with it and it is one of the quietest that I've shot. Not to mention it is very quick as well. Those factors are of huge importance in the woods with 'quiet' being number one. When I buy another bow setup I'll keep your advice in mind; skip the overdraw and go maybe with a drop-away rest or somthing. 
Also, I was simply stating that my accuracy is certainly NOT suffering in any way and I'll see to it that I maintain the highest possible. That is important to me. As for all the money you and bfisher speak of...I had no idea it was that lucrative. I may very well be seeing you in Vegas to take some of it from you in the near future...I'll be the one with the camo bow with overdraw setup...thanks for the tip; as bfisher put it, maybe I "won't have to work again." Shooting for a living would be nice indeed! :shade:


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## DXTdaveRN (Oct 5, 2008)

bfisher said:


> I would also have to agree with what X-Tech said. You asked a question. I gave you my best advice based on over 35 years of shooting, both competitvely and for bowhunting. I have used overdraws in the past and know they can lead to accuracy problems---by the shooter.
> 
> I would also say that if you can shoot dime sized groups all day, then you need toget on the 3D and target circuit with exactly the equipment you are presently shooting. Make no changes. There is lots of money to be made and companies looking for shooters with the ability to shoot like that. I'd almost guarantee that you'd never have to work for a living again.


Who might I contact about the "never having to work again" deal? I can't think of much better than slinging arrows for a living. Now that's the job for me! Thanks for the advice.


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## bfisher (Nov 30, 2002)

DXTdaveRN said:


> Thanks for your object lesson...I can certainly see what you mean...but I don't wiggle my arrows around when at full draw and I don't shoot fingers, so I haven't noticed a problem like you're describing (my paper tuning also confirms this for me).This is definately an older bow setup. When this bow was originally set up, the overdraw was the popular standard and used by a great many people with excellent results. I really don't want or need to reinvent this bow. I have taken many deer over the years with it and it is one of the quietest that I've shot. Not to mention it is very quick as well. Those factors are of huge importance in the woods with 'quiet' being number one. When I buy another bow setup I'll keep your advice in mind; skip the overdraw and go maybe with a drop-away rest or somthing.
> Also, I was simply stating that my accuracy is certainly NOT suffering in any way and I'll see to it that I maintain the highest possible. That is important to me. As for all the money you and bfisher speak of...I had no idea it was that lucrative. I may very well be seeing you in Vegas to take some of it from you in the near future...I'll be the one with the camo bow with overdraw setup...thanks for the tip; as bfisher put it, maybe I "won't have to work again." Shooting for a living would be nice indeed! :shade:


 OK,, now we're starting to see a bit of humor. I like that. I'll tell you a little bit about Vegas. You go out there with a hunting setup and win you aren't going to have to contact anybody. Believe me, somebody, NO everybody will notice. You will then be contacted.


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## DXTdaveRN (Oct 5, 2008)

So it's pretty much like other sports. You have to be at the right place right time and catch a scout's eye eh? Well a hunting setup is all I have and I wont be dropping the big coin on a target-only setup anytime soon, so I'll just have to represent with what I have. I'm sure it would cause quite a stir for a nobody like me to roll up on the circuit with my hunting setup and shake things up a bit wouldn't it? Could be a lot of fun though... a real Cinderella story 
Like I said before, getting paid to shoot arrows...I can't think of a much better job myself! Sign me up my friend!


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## moosetrack (Aug 13, 2005)

well to answer your post the one thing you would need to be concernd about cutting a carbon down to that length, is making it too stiff. you gave the gpi but what size is this arrow 250,300,......and oh yea if you can shoot like that well you need to try and make a living out of it,but remmember its a differant world standing on that line vrs standing in the back yard


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## DXTdaveRN (Oct 5, 2008)

Sorry I forgot to mention that. The arrows are CX Maxima size 350 which was what they recommended for a 70-75lb draw. I wasn't trying to be cocky or anything. I was just trying to illustrate that my accuracy has been very good with this bow. I can guarantee that, on average, I would be well within the "x ring" much of the time. Typically my groups are all arrows touching within a 2x2 inch square (I've destroyed many arrows, especially lately after I re-dialed in my sight. I'd love to go for a "robin hood" shot but I hate wrecking arrows, it's too expensive). I need to get some of the 3 target ring paper targets, like they use in the tournaments, so I can space my shots apart more. I did watch some of the Vegas 2008 tourney stuff on here recently and I can see your point of being on the 'line' vs the backyard but I don't think it would bother me any more than any other type of competition...(or even when you see that big buck walking in) you just gotta keep a cool head and tune out what's around you. They did win some serious money though...up to $30,000 for a weekend? wow, you guys weren't kidding! Maybe someone could explain to me why some guys let their bow do this BS swinging thing in their hand after every shot, they let the bow fall and just rock back and forth like their gonna drop it. It seems to be a trend with some of the target archers. I know all about a relaxed grip and all, but is that really necessary?


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## bfisher (Nov 30, 2002)

You've probably heard he term follow-through. Letting the bow fall forward is the follow-through of the shot. Yes, maybe many exaggerate it, but by doing so they ensure that they do it right. It just becomes part of their normal shot sequence, of which there are many parts.


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## DXTdaveRN (Oct 5, 2008)

Got ya, thanks. 
Here's another "target question" or two: What is the distance that the 'line' is standing from the targets? It was a little hard to tell from the Vegas 2008 video. Also, how much time does the shooter have to shoot his 3 arrows? I noticed the one guy waited it out so he'd be able to take his last shot completely alone (I think he was the one that eventually won).

By the way, thanks to all of you for your input on the arrow length discussion. I think I have all my answers now. You guys got me doing a lot of research and, in doing so, I found a very good bunch of reference material with all kinds of charts; formulas; tutorials and tips. I know now that I've made a very good choice in my shafts and will be able to make well-informed decisions when setting them up. I may even move up to 125gr tips. Thanks again!


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## bfisher (Nov 30, 2002)

I don't think Vegas shoots i meters so the distance from shooting line to the targets is 20 yards. I personally haven't shot a Veags round for about 20 years, but if they haven't changed it the time alloted for 3 shots is 2 minutes. This might sound like not much, but it's plenty.

You're really getting intrested in this target stuff, aren't you? Well, here's another thing to ponder. A lot of those guys are shooting very large diameter arrows---like 27/64" diameter. Most are way way stiff for their bows, but they compensate by shooting 200 grain points and such with full length 32" shafts.

Something else you might consider, which you'll eventually find out, is that you won't find many guys shooting bows that draw 70# or more. In fact, you won't find all that many shooting 60#. There's a reason. The heavy weight wears you down. I don't care how young, big, or strong you are. Target shooting has nothing to do with arrow speed or kinetic energy. A paper target doesn't care how long it takes and arrow to get there nor does it matter how deep it penetrates. It certainly matters whether every shot is in that 1 1/4" 10 ring and most better be in the X-ring which is only half of that. This why you'll find a lot of lower poundage bows being shot. Like 50# but with 65% letoff.


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## DXTdaveRN (Oct 5, 2008)

Sure I'm interested. I love all things archery and I've often wondered about the "target circuit" I've had people I know that did competition but I never got to go see one and I guess I just forgot about it after a while but part of me has always been curious. Even though I'm mainly a hunting archer, I highly enjoy target practice (always have) and in many ways I've always been as meticulous about my shooting and my equipment as I imagine many competition archers are. 
You've peaked my curiousity I must admit and I'd like to know more. I may seriously consider taking my shooting to another level and trying out the other side of the sport sometime. Hey I'd be happy to broaden my horizons.
All very interesting info you've given me. I didn't realize it was 20 yards that they're shooting. I kind of suspected that they shot less poundage due to the space I was hearing between shot and impact on target (as low as 50 eh? It's been some years since I shot a bow that light) but it makes total sense when it comes to increasing endurance. I used to shoot the "tree trunk" size easton superlights all the time before I decided to switch to carbons. Only problem is they had very thin walls and were easily damaged if I shot my groups too tight, that got expensive.
I do appreciate the info and I'm gonna continue to look into target competition further. We'll see how it plays out. Who knows, maybe I'll end up in Vegas some day...


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## bfisher (Nov 30, 2002)

DXTdaveRN said:


> Sure I'm interested. I love all things archery and I've often wondered about the "target circuit" I've had people I know that did competition but I never got to go see one and I guess I just forgot about it after a while but part of me has always been curious. Even though I'm mainly a hunting archer, I highly enjoy target practice (always have) and in many ways I've always been as meticulous about my shooting and my equipment as I imagine many competition archers are.
> You've peaked my curiousity I must admit and I'd like to know more. I may seriously consider taking my shooting to another level and trying out the other side of the sport sometime. Hey I'd be happy to broaden my horizons.
> All very interesting info you've given me. I didn't realize it was 20 yards that they're shooting. I kind of suspected that they shot less poundage due to the space I was hearing between shot and impact on target (as low as 50 eh? It's been some years since I shot a bow that light) but it makes total sense when it comes to increasing endurance. I used to shoot the "tree trunk" size easton superlights all the time before I decided to switch to carbons. Only problem is they had very thin walls and were easily damaged if I shot my groups too tight, that got expensive.
> I do appreciate the info and I'm gonna continue to look into target competition further. We'll see how it plays out. Who knows, maybe I'll end up in Vegas some day...


 Sorry I didn't notice it before, but in your signature it shows some stupid XI bow. Man, don't you spend any money? Just kidding. I used to shoot for them (1993-1997).


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## DXTdaveRN (Oct 5, 2008)

bfisher said:


> Sorry I didn't notice it before, but in your signature it shows some stupid XI bow. Man, don't you spend any money? Just kidding. I used to shoot for them (1993-1997).


Dude...I've tried to talk myself into a new setup many times, I could get one any time I wanted, I've shot about everything out there lately and I like the Mathews DXT best (for hunting), but I just can't put this Xi bow down yet...it's such a sweet bow, honest. It's absolutely whisper quiet in the woods and pretty darn blazing fast for it's age. Many deer have fallen before it throughout the years and I'm just really having a problem letting go... :sad:
As far as target competition, I've been looking around a little lately. I'm not entirely sure yet, but for target I think I'm kind of leaning toward the Hoyts such as the proelite or ultraelite. Which Martin would you recommend?
So you shot for Xi eh? No kidding? That's pretty cool! Which do you think was their best bow? It was Myles Keller that started that company wasn't it? He's up for a hall of fame spot now.
I'll tell you, I'm having a good time on this thread; glad I happened in...


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## bfisher (Nov 30, 2002)

DXTdaveRN said:


> Dude...I've tried to talk myself into a new setup many times, I could get one any time I wanted, I've shot about everything out there lately and I like the Mathews DXT best (for hunting), but I just can't put this Xi bow down yet...it's such a sweet bow, honest. It's absolutely whisper quiet in the woods and pretty darn blazing fast for it's age. Many deer have fallen before it throughout the years and I'm just really having a problem letting go... :sad:
> As far as target competition, I've been looking around a little lately. I'm not entirely sure yet, but for target I think I'm kind of leaning toward the Hoyts such as the proelite or ultraelite. Which Martin would you recommend?
> So you shot for Xi eh? No kidding? That's pretty cool! Which do you think was their best bow? It was Myles Keller that started that company wasn't it? He's up for a hall of fame spot now.
> I'll tell you, I'm having a good time on this thread; glad I happened in...


 Glad you're having fun. Me, too.

Bows, bows, bows. What to shoot for target? In a Martin it's the S4 (Scepter) without a doubt. And with the X cams and cabling system.


I haven't kept up with all the bows these days. It's impossible. All I can do is tell you what my opinions are based on experience. Just to tell you what I'd look at. Look at a deflexed riser configuration. Straight riser is OK, but reflexed like most hunting bows is not as forgiving of minor mistakes.

Longer is better. Look for bows about 40" or longer. Why? Same reason, forgiveness.

Taller brace height. 8 to 8.5" is good. Why? Same reason, forgiveness.

Do you see a pattern devloping here? There is more, but I'd best leave that to some of the hard core target shooters. I keep going you just might get the idea I know what I'm talking about, and I don't want to mislead you too badly.

Yes, I shot for XI from 1993 to 1997. I always liked the softer cams such as on the Legacy, Pinnacle, and Nemisis. I liked the Nemisis the best. Pretty good bows for the day.

I don't recall Myles Keller starting the company. He just came along and endorsed their bows, just like the big boys on TV these days. I met Myles once at a show I worked. Saw him several times after that, but frankly I've never been unduely impressed with any of the big name TV hunters. All they ever shoot is monster bucks and hey, anything can be edited.

OK, I gotta git.


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