# Win & Win risers? inno cxt? inno max? Tuning without bareshaft or papertuning?



## dylpickleeeeeee (Jun 6, 2013)

First off, i am sorry for posting so many new threads about new topics, But i have so many questions to ask. 

I have been using a win win sf forged plus for a while and i was interested in upgrading to a better riser and the inno max and the inno cxt caught my eye. The Inno max seems like a relatively new riser so i could not find many reviews online. So has anyone used the inno max or the inno cxt before? and if so, what is the difference between them since they are both carbon and they both have the string follow through technology. They are both carbon but they seem pretty heavy for fully carbon so are they made of a carbon and aluminum composite? Does the inno max shoot more smooth or it dampens the vibration better?

Also is there any way to tune a bow without any papertuning or bareshaft? is it possible to tune an arrow with the arrows all fletched? I ask because when i order the carbon ones from the shop they fletched them all for me already and i dont want to go through the trouble of removing the fletched and fletching them back again later. 

Sorry i am asking so many questions but thank you all


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## MickeyBisco (Jul 14, 2012)

Un-fletch one of the dozen. Don't refletch it, it good to keep at least one bare shaft ( or 2) from a dozen.


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## olafff (Apr 25, 2013)

2 - makes it for a much faster and accurate tune.


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## HikerDave (Jan 1, 2011)

dylpickleeeeeee said:


> First off, i am sorry for posting so many new threads about new topics, But i have so many questions to ask.
> 
> I have been using a win win sf forged plus for a while and i was interested in upgrading to a better riser and the inno max and the inno cxt caught my eye. The Inno max seems like a relatively new riser so i could not find many reviews online. So has anyone used the inno max or the inno cxt before? and if so, what is the difference between them since they are both carbon and they both have the string follow through technology. They are both carbon but they seem pretty heavy for fully carbon so are they made of a carbon and aluminum composite? Does the inno max shoot more smooth or it dampens the vibration better?
> 
> ...


One question per thread works a lot better.

There's another method of tuning -- walk-back tuning where you adjust the plunger spring tension based on a reading of the arrow impact point at various distances.

Also, if you don't need a really good tune, you can have someone watch your arrows as they leave the bow.

If you have a nice clean bale you can shoot into it and look at the angle of impact. You'll always get nock-left or nock-right readings at close range because the arrow is still bending rapidly but you can try several distances about a foot a part -- if they're still all tilted into the bale the same way you know you have a problem.

Bare shaft tuning is popular because you get a good reading of what's happening very quickly.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

> Also is there any way to tune a bow without any papertuning or bareshaft? is it possible to tune an arrow with the arrows all fletched? I ask because when i order the carbon ones from the shop they fletched them all for me already and i dont want to go through the trouble of removing the fletched and fletching them back again later.


Some folks will tell you they can tune by watching a fletched shaft fly. If they are really, really good, they can get you close, but the only way to know FOR CERTAIN is to shoot a bare shaft and see what it does.

Frankly - and I'm not trying to be rude but just honest with you here - if you're not willing to go through the trouble of stripping the vanes off one arrow and bare shaft tuning, then don't expect to go very far in this sport.

Competitive target archery is a blend of 50% athletic ability, and 50% technical ability (unless of course you have a personal coach who sets up all your gear, all the time). It takes an understanding and dedication to both to reach your potential.

John


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## DWAA Archer (Oct 14, 2011)

HikerDave said:


> One question per thread works a lot better.
> 
> There's another method of tuning -- walk-back tuning where you adjust the plunger spring tension based on a reading of the arrow impact point at various distances.
> 
> ...


Walk back tuning not much use for carbon arrows but ok for aluminium arrows have a look in the FITA coaching manual for reasons why.

Bare shaft planing is best.

set target 30m

set nock point height first bare shafts impacting level with fletched. just for reference bare shafts impacting (above fletched group nock point is too low move up) if bare shafts impact below fletched arrows (nock point too high move down)

You must do this first because often what you find while doing this is when the nock point height is out you often get a too weak or too stiff reading on the bare shaft ignore this until the bare shafts impact level with the group often the bare shaft left right reading changes.

next step. Set button this will be moving your center shot in and out until your groupings improve. A centre shot setting that is ever so slightly off can cause clearance problems that affect groupings and also the node points on the arrow may not be pointing at the target when the arrow leaves the bow!! Because everyone knows that the arrow follows the path of the node points to the target and *Not the Arrow Points* 

Brace height adjustment add or remove twists to your string until the bow sounds quiet. just to note changing your brace height also affects nock point height so as (brace height increases nock point lowers) and as (brace height decreases nock point rises).

This is useful to know if you use a Beiter nock point because to can use the change in nock height to work out where it should be with out constantly reserving.


If after all this you are still getting a stiff or weak bare shaft reading then it's time to get out the allen keys and change your bow poundage. screw the limb bolts in to the riser to increase draw weight making a stiff arrow weaker. and unscrew the limb bolts to lower the draw weight of the bow making a weak arrow stiffer. and just for the record *Hoyt states in their 2013 manual From the bottomed out position, the tiller bolt should only be backed out to a maximum of six complete turns. So if you are shooting Hoyt keep an eye on that when lowering draw weight.*


Thats me done for the day I'm gonna go out and shoot now


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## dylpickleeeeeee (Jun 6, 2013)

limbwalker said:


> Some folks will tell you they can tune by watching a fletched shaft fly. If they are really, really good, they can get you close, but the only way to know FOR CERTAIN is to shoot a bare shaft and see what it does.
> 
> Frankly - and I'm not trying to be rude but just honest with you here - if you're not willing to go through the trouble of stripping the vanes off one arrow and bare shaft tuning, then don't expect to go very far in this sport.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the reply and for the feedback
I would be glad to strip an arrow but i dont have a fletching jig yet so i wouldnt be able to get it refletched unless i go to my local shop and have them fletch it. But if having a bare shaft is what it takes to tune an arrow then i will strip the vanes off 2 of the arrows


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## dylpickleeeeeee (Jun 6, 2013)

HikerDave said:


> One question per thread works a lot better.
> 
> There's another method of tuning -- walk-back tuning where you adjust the plunger spring tension based on a reading of the arrow impact point at various distances.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the advice. I didnt want to post to many threads as i didnt want to spam it. But im new here so i will take your advice.
If they watched the arrow flight how could you tell if the plunger was soft hard etc?


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## dylpickleeeeeee (Jun 6, 2013)

DWAA Archer said:


> Walk back tuning not much use for carbon arrows but ok for aluminium arrows have a look in the FITA coaching manual for reasons why.
> 
> Bare shaft planing is best.
> 
> ...


Thanks for all the help! as i have never actually tuned a bow before since i have been shooting for only a couple months and just got my first dozen of decent arrows. For the past few months i have been working on my form and have been using like 3 dollar arrows so i never bothered to tune them. But this is good advice and i will use it.


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## DWAA Archer (Oct 14, 2011)

dylpickleeeeeee said:


> Thanks for all the help! as i have never actually tuned a bow before since i have been shooting for only a couple months and just got my first dozen of decent arrows. For the past few months i have been working on my form and have been using like 3 dollar arrows so i never bothered to tune them. But this is good advice and i will use it.


Ok here are a couple of links to get you started.

http://www.archery.org/UserFiles/Document/FITA%20website/07%20Publications/02_downloads/Coaches_Manual_Lev2/12_Recurve_Technique.pdf This will show you how to shoot this is the most important thing.


http://www.archery.org/UserFiles/Document/FITA%20website/07%20Publications/02_downloads/Coaches_Manual_Lev2/11_Recurve_Equipment.pdf This will show you how to setup and tune your bow.

Good luck

Shoot well.


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## olafff (Apr 25, 2013)

Dont get it refletched. Always have 2 bareshafts. Every little change in your bow will result in a need for a tune. Slight increase in the poundage, new string, new points, new plunger etc. my advice is to treat tuning as a challange itself so that it's not just a necessity but something to feel accomplished when you get it right.



dylpickleeeeeee said:


> Thanks for the reply and for the feedback
> I would be glad to strip an arrow but i dont have a fletching jig yet so i wouldnt be able to get it refletched unless i go to my local shop and have them fletch it. But if having a bare shaft is what it takes to tune an arrow then i will strip the vanes off 2 of the arrows


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## Fury90flier (Jun 27, 2012)

if you have a dozen arrows, put 4 aside for safe keeping. Use 6 for your shooting arrows then have 2 bare shafts for tuning.

When you start tuning, get some help or you may end up chasing your tail. Something as simple as release can affect how we the tune goes, or doesn't go. Bare shaft will definitely show a poor release but it may make you think you have a tuning/spine issue when you don't. Or if you don't release at the same point in your draw will affect impact...a clicker will help this


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

It's not whether the plunger is soft or hard, it's whether the arrow is correct for the draw weight it's being shot from.


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## HikerDave (Jan 1, 2011)

dylpickleeeeeee said:


> Thanks for the advice. I didnt want to post to many threads as i didnt want to spam it. But im new here so i will take your advice.
> If they watched the arrow flight how could you tell if the plunger was soft hard etc?


This isn't really a recommended way of tuning but I do it anyways -- if you are watching your archer and the arrow comes out of a right-handed bow pointed left and then turns to the right as the fletchings correct the flight then the arrow is a bit stiff for the bow and a slight decrease in plunger tension might correct this, provided that the arrows are already well-matched to the bow. An increase in brace height or a slight increase in poundage will also correct this. (Limbwalker and I didn't, so heed his advice 

I always re-fletch my bare shafts once I get the tuning close because I'm an obsessive tuner and will waste too much time messing with my bow if I have the temptation to shoot the bare shafts just sitting there in my quiver.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

> I always re-fletch my bare shafts once I get the tuning close because I'm an obsessive tuner and will waste too much time messing with my bow if I have the temptation to shoot the bare shafts just sitting there in my quiver.


While you'll probably always find a single bare shaft somewhere in my quiver, I've got to hand it to Dave for posting this. Because it's pretty darn good advice for anyone who likes to tinker too much. Good for you Dave.


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## dylpickleeeeeee (Jun 6, 2013)

DWAA Archer said:


> Ok here are a couple of links to get you started.
> 
> http://www.archery.org/UserFiles/Document/FITA%20website/07%20Publications/02_downloads/Coaches_Manual_Lev2/12_Recurve_Technique.pdf This will show you how to shoot this is the most important thing.
> 
> ...


thank you for the websites, i will read them


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## nifty (Jun 21, 2009)

I've run with spin wings for a long time. And when I get a new set of arrows I fletch them all. If I ever need a bare shaft or 2 I just get some of the top and tail tape and wrap the spin wings around the shaft with the tape... Instant bare shaft! I like to do this so that all of my arrows in that set can go through a rotation of use over time.

Nifty


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## dylpickleeeeeee (Jun 6, 2013)

Thats a great idea! im going to try this. But after you remove the tape, will the vanes be crooked?


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## nifty (Jun 21, 2009)

Dylpickleee, what vanes are you using? After removing the tape I've had no problem with spin wings curling back to shape.


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## dylpickleeeeeee (Jun 6, 2013)

I am using the Easton Tite Flight Vanes in 175


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