# Review of the new Border HEX5-H limbs!



## DariusXV (Feb 18, 2009)

Hey Guys,

Brian Jarrett has graciously given me permission to post this link to his review of the new Border Hex5-H limbs.

The review can be found here:

http://www.bestarcheryforum.com/index.php/topic,99.0.html

I have to say, I think he did a superb job of going over many details from a consumer's point of view. The article is extremely well-written and fun to read!

Personally, I'm a bit envious (both of his new limbs and his writing style) and feel that he upped the bar of how a good review should be written over there.

I am hoping that he will be happy to field questions about the limbs, either here or on BAF, and post pictures to anyone who is interested.

Thanks!

Darren Nothstine


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## Hank D Thoreau (Dec 9, 2008)

I recently received a set of 36 lb long Border HEX5 wood core limbs. Initial indoor tuning shows that though my draw weight has gone down about 2 lbs from my previous limbs, my arrows are now weak. I had to put a stiffer spring in my Beiter to get the arrows back on the center line. The limbs are really too fast for me to shoot barebow indoors (which is what I was doing during initial tuning); I bought them for the longer distances. I have been comparing data for three 36 lb limbs on the Border Forum of Archery-Interchange.com. I have completed chrono tests and will be creating draw force curves next. Look under the name Amateur Barbarian. The HEX5 limbs are 2 lbs lighter at my draw length and 1 fps faster than my previous 90 M limbs (40 lb PSE Carbon).

I will have an opportunity to test drive the limbs outdoors now that the indoor season has finally (and mercifully) ended. Initial results from outdoors shows that my point on has increased by 5 M from my 36 lb long Border CXB limbs. This would significantly improve my sight points at 50 and 70 M. I believe I will be able to use my arrow tip instead of rest wire for aiming at these two distances. This will also improve my sight point at 90 M, possibly dropping my shelf down to somewhere on the target. I will be updating the Border forum as I get more results. Now I just have to worry about getting them tuned correctly as the review discussed.

http://www.archery-interchange.net/...06-hex5-alternative-use-first-impression.html


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## DariusXV (Feb 18, 2009)

Excellent Hank! Thank you for your input on this and for the link! 

Very cool! :thumbs_up


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## Greysides (Jun 10, 2009)

> Look under the name Amateur Barbarian.




Should've known!


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## Hank D Thoreau (Dec 9, 2008)

Greysides said:


> Should've known!


Now it can be told.


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## CJSdrftFLAT (Dec 5, 2007)

from the above link

Border Hex5-H Review
« on: March 08, 2010, 01:59:12 PM »

Just before Christmas I received my new set of Border Hex5-H limbs. The H series means that its does not have wood in the core of the limb. For those of you who are familiar with this particular limb, you already know that it has a very distinct recurve...a "super recurve" so to speak. The idea behind this is that the limb comes into contact very early on in the power stroke to help stabilize the string. This, according to Border, helps with reducing the effects of the fingers on the string. (the imparted lateral motion)

Now that I've been shooting these limbs for a few months, I can actually give a decent review!

First, I can say that they are fast. I'm averaging 4-6 fps faster with my indoor arrows, vs my PSE Xpressions, at the same draw weight. But my BH is also 1/2" lower with the Borders. The added speed of these limbs, in effect weakened my 2114s substantially...vs the same draw weight as my xpressions. Border recommends lower BHs in general with their limbs, but this was a must for me, as the arrows wouldn't tune. In addition, I've had to set up these arrows at true center shot. Gone are the days of "the right side of the arrow should visually touch the left side of the sting". I could not achieve a tune with a conventional set-up. But the center shot alignment was also a Border recommendation. I will say that it took me longer to find a tune with these limbs that any other that I've had. Mostly because I had to depart from conventional tuning wisdom to do so. I also had to spend a lot more time balancing the limbs (adjusting the tiller, as many would say) than I have previously. But once "there" the claims that Border makes, seem to be holding true. 

A bad release, for me, used to mean a loss of 5 points. In otherwords a 10 would be a five. Now a bad release gets me a 7 or 8. My definition of a bad release is a pluck or slight pulling of the sting, causing either a left of right shot. Most of the time I pull it left (I'm a right handed shooter). Now, this doesn't mean that my scores have jumped up considerably...because I'm not a expert shooter...But I average around 270 FITA at 18M. My scores have gone up 3 to 4 points on average lately. 

I've played around with a lot of shooting forms, dedicated a lot of time to minor variations, and all the while, my scores generally stayed around my averages. So I believe, that in this instance, the equipment has actually made a small, yet noticeable difference. My hats off to Border...their design seems to be doing what they claim it will do. 

Now, the finish isn't as top notch as some of the major manufactures, but I've contacted them, and they offered to refinish them for free, at any time that I choose. That is something that I've never heard from a limb manufacturer. Not to mention that throughout the ordering process, they communicated regularly with me, about the status of my order, or questions about their products, advice for tuning, etc. Even months after I've recieved the product, they are just as good about answering questions or making suggestions as they ever were. Customer service is fantasic. But I digressed...a bit more info on the finish...I noticed a very small nick in the paint when I received the limbs. To me, this is a minor issue, but to others this is a horrible thing. The 2nd finish issue, I feel I could have helped prevent. Due to extra recurve on these limbs, you need longer endloop servings. A standard stings end loop knot is still very much in contact with the limbs, and I shot it a couple hundred times like this...the knot wore through the paint. I've since built new stings, but it was too late. The sting grooves in the limbs now, have the paint worn through. Also, a minor problem in my mind...because it doesn't affect performance, and you can't see it when strung.

All in all
1. With claims vs. performance, I give Border an A+
2. Finish, I give them a B
3. Customer service, A++
4. Pricing B+

Brian


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## jmvargas (Oct 21, 2004)

very good reviews from both hank and brian...i have the 32# CXG and 34# HEX5-H mk2 both in mediums and my findings are essentially the same although i have no problems with the finish..

i also made it a point to order my initial strings from borders together with the bow so i don't have the end loop issues mentioned...


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## DariusXV (Feb 18, 2009)

jmvargas, Hank, and Brian,

The only thing that is worrying me about these limbs is that you guys have mentioned a shortened brace height.

Perhaps I'm in my infant stages of archery, but as far as my skill level is...it seems that a longer brace height can be more forgiving as long as the arrow tunes correctly at that longer brace.

I know you'll lose some speed from the shortened power stroke at a long brace. Etc...

What I guess I'm getting at is: Are you finding that even with the shorter brace that the limbs, because of their design, are forgiving?

I know Brian thinks so...maybe I just didn't read everything well enough for everyone else.

Thanks!

Darren Nothstine


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## jmvargas (Oct 21, 2004)

darren...the shortened brace height is because i was advised by sid sr that their limbs perform better at those levels...i was kinda skeptical in the beginning as i was more used to a 8.5"-8.75" with my medium winacts,xpressions,extremes, M1s, vectors and winexes but decided to give it a try anyway...
sid sr even told me that his 50#hunting bows were at something like 7-7.5" BH so i just tried it and he was right...


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## Greysides (Jun 10, 2009)

jmvargas said:


> i also made it a point to order my initial strings from borders together with the bow so i don't have the end loop issues mentioned...



Hmmmm. Must remember that. Thanks.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

My initial impressions of the Border Hex 5 limbs were very similar to Brian's. Good review. They are indeed smoother and faster than any limbs I've shot, including my Samick Masters - which is saying a lot. LOTS of pre-load on the limbs. Not sure I can get used to the "super recurve" though, as it makes stringing and unstringing the bow a real chore, but for those that don't mind using a stringer, it's not really an issue. 

Unfortunately, I dropped my bow on the lower limb tip in the garage one afternoon - right after a superb practice session shooting fita barebow - and the lower limb seperated on me. So, I had probably less than 300 shots total on those limbs. I can tell you however that just prior to destroying the lower limb, I was shooting some of the tightest barebow groups I've ever seen. 

Sad part is that I was all geared up and looking forward to shooting barebow at NAA Indoor Nationals with that set of limbs, but when they seperated, I ditched the whole idea and just went back to shoot the Oly. bow... Oh well...

Agreed on the finish issues. They need to get that worked out. For a set of limbs that shoots that well and cost that much, they should have one of the finest finish and graphics jobs in the business...

If I get another set to use, I'll post my impressions. I still have yet to shoot them in a full Oly. recurve setup.

John.


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## Borderbows (Apr 4, 2009)

Limbwalker: we are ready to ship again.

We have been flat out with production here so things are running a wee bit late.

DariusXV:

What happens then alot of people drop brace hieght and see groups expand, generally happens when people dont realise that dropping brace hieght effects spine (though change in total energy, and energy delivery) Centreshot, due to the shorter distance between string and arrow rest. and nocking point height, and this is due to the downward nocking point path on a recurve, and with the lower the brace height, you would end up with a different final nock position. The string follow though will change too due to a change in string tension at brace height. It can also be said that the Balance of the limbs, the Tiller in target circles would also change due to the final stopping point of the bow being in a different position, leading to possible limb flap on a perviously well set up bow.

I'll explain more if there are any areas of confusion.


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## gig'em 99 (Feb 1, 2008)

Borderbows said:


> Limbwalker: we are ready to ship again.
> 
> We have been flat out with production here so things are running a wee bit late.
> 
> ...


I couldn't agree more with what Sid says above. My arrows also initially indicated weak at the same draw weight. But I was at "normal" ILF limb brace heights when I began my testing. Ultimately, for my 68" bow, I settled on about 8.5" with the Borders. This is 5/8" shorter than I normally have, with say my Winex limbs or Xpression limbs. I noticed better groups and better bareshaft results at the lower BH with the Borders. About that time is when Sid Sr. mentioned that I needed to pay close attention to the limb balance. Once I got that worked out, I wound up having to adjust my nock point, center shot, and plunger tension again. This was a bit of a process to say the least, but in the end, my groups are tight, and the arrows and bare shafts are flying like they're on a wire, just straight and perfect. Not to mention the sound is MUCH more pleasant.


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## DariusXV (Feb 18, 2009)

Sid,

In my case there will always be areas of confusion...but that isn't necessarily due to your lack of trying.

So...from what I am seeing in Brian's case...the HEX5 seems to favor closer to true centershot? I think that's great. Usually this was a function of the archer's efficincy with the fingers, if I understand correctly.

In layman's terms, it sounds like you guys are finding a way to make recurve limbs that turn the bow into "more like" a compound.

I have to say that I hate the idea of giving up ANY brace height if I can keep it...but all of my compounds have shorter brace heights and I certainly shoot them better than my recurves despite the "crutch." 

I was really excited when Brian decided to post a review of your new limbs. I had heard that he was going to be getting some, and his review was a pleasant surprise!

I have been exchanging e-mails with Sid for a few weeks now (he's been most gracious in explaining a lot of things I had misconceptions about) and THIS is the kind of thing I'm looking for in a manufacturer, personally. He hasn't made a dime off me (yet!!!) but he's tried to help me out and I have a sneaking suspicion he'd help me out AFTER the sale.

I've seen a lot of ads that cater more towards an emotional content (HOME vs. House), but Sid's approach is firmly cerebral. It can be a bit overwhelming at times but I've gained much knowledge in my short exchanges with Sid that I cannot help but feel he's onto something.

Guys...thanks for all the info in this post! Very cool. :thumbs_up


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## Borderbows (Apr 4, 2009)

DariusXV:
Im Sid's Son, Also Sid... Just to confuse things...

our simple logic stands on two main traits of a bow. The difference between a recurve and a longbow is smoothness of draw, giving better stored energy. This comes from the recurve. Howard Hill style vs Hybrid bows, Hybrid bows Vs recurves, and recurves vs Super recurves.
The smoother draw can lead to shorter limbs/bows, or smoother draw (easier though the clicker)
The next one is Light mass limbs. The lighter the better (as long as they stay together. We make 95% our bows at the moment out 98% carbon laminates.
This 98% means we have a laminate thats considerably lighter in mass than glass laminates, and Most limbs on the market including alot of top end limbs are vastly Glass powered. 

This gives us a smooth feel and rapid and prompt dynamic reaction to your loose. Yes all bows will have limbs flap if badly setup, but light limbs have to give you less kick overall.
The trick is to make a good stable limb that makes a good alround bow. Thats our aim, Stability, then speed.
Our field/hunting bows all have this level of technology in them too, from one peice recurves to the takedowns.

our new hunting hybrid longbow that we are prototyping weights in at 1.04lbs for a 66" 45lbs bow with string. Thats carbon for you!


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## Borderbows (Apr 4, 2009)

DariusVX:
I should have also said,
centre shot for us is there to set up the amount of kick the finger loose makes on the back end of the arrow.so that the two become inline back and front.

Now that inline statement is fundamentally only applicable at the launch point of the arrow. 2 basic statements that we cannot fault.
1) The longer the power stroke the longer the ossilations have to stabilise out. (low brace height increases your power stroke)

2) torsional stability will provide a good platform to haul the string into line quicker as the limb tip ossilations will decrease quicker.

Add these two together and you end up with a need to reduce the centreshot... as the back end of the arrow isnt as far out of line as you would conventionally have with normal recurves.


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## Greysides (Jun 10, 2009)

Borderbows said:


> centre shot for us is there to set up the amount of kick the finger loose makes on the back end of the arrow.so that the two become inline back and front.


Sid,

How does the function of the plunger come into it? 

My understanding is that that is the function of the plunger..... at least as far as lining up the front and rear arrow nodes.

TIA.


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## DariusXV (Feb 18, 2009)

Okay Sid! (and son!...Sid!)

First...thank you for coming in and helping to explain.

Where I am coming from is this: In the compound world, with a mechanical- release...the archer has in effect "mostly" minimized the horizontal deviation of the release of the arrow.

In essence, what I am reading is that your limb design helps negate some of the lateral instability that is naturally imparted by a finger-release. 

Obviously, a flub is a flub. BUT...if what I am reading into this is correct, your design actually increases forgiveness through the torsional stability of the limbs and the added recurve.

Anything that can get the plunger closer to centershot is a good thing in my book. I'm going to assume that the plunger ends up being much stiffer...by design, yes?

Darren Nothstine


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## Borderbows (Apr 4, 2009)

DariusVX:
Our thinking is that a stiffer spine arrow will straighten up quicker due to being stiffer.

As i keep saying this is a huge topic, but we are looking constantly to improve the stability of the bows we make.

We are looking at all the possible aspects we think are good in bow design, be it Compound or Longbow. For example bigger cams from compounds, and low brace heights on Longbows.
The Advantage of bigger cams is smoother draws, and the low brace height, gives longer power stroke and more time to stabise the NP path, both vertically and horizintally.
Doing this without compromising the stable aspects of riser design, such as having the grip infront of the bow, and not really inline with it, or even behind the limbs, which would be the more unstable in our books.

Greysides:
A button is a dampener to slow down the kick off the release.
You can either have soft/long travel, Where the mean travel point is say set to centre.
or a stiff short plunger where the mean travel is also say centre.
either way the reaction of the arrow needs to be where the back and front of the arrow is inline at the launch point.
set to centre is a mute point, as it needs to be set where this correct flight happens. Centre was used as a example datum for the explaination.

What we think is important is that the stiffer lateral stability puts the mean location closer to centre. as the kick of the release has less amplitude and wave length with tighter stablity in the limbs.
At least thats our thinking and aims with out product design and R&D.
This is all dependednt on Arrow spine, point weight, and brace hieght and lastly your techneque


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## Harrison Ooi (Mar 14, 2009)

Borders...... Really something different and exiting in terms of equipment. 

Here is my review:

I started shooting Borders around August last year, I was still a novice then and I was shooting HEX-5's, lets just say with quite imperfect form but loads of training my scores started creeping up. Come September, I got my GMX, took some time to tune, but I got everything pretty much right, tiller,BH. More training led to bigger improvements, and everywhere I went (even now) there are hoards of people asking where i got them and some even want to try them. 

I have only managed to shoot a few 1200's in training mainly because I have not gone to many FITA's. I managed to shoot an OK 1160 at a recent open, here are the scores:

90m: 238 ([email protected]!!)
70m:292 (not very good)
50m:305...ok
30:326 ( not my best!)

After the tourney I pushed my clicker out and now my shooting has got even better to the point of only 8's,9's,and 10's at 70m. 

Enough about me, these limbs are really something. Its not just the speed but the smoothness that let you pull hard into backension and give you a very positive feeling at full draw (like your elbow wants to move back slowly). They are really quiet and it should be a crime to put limbsavers on as they are not needed. They are really radical in design and from what I hear there are 1 or 2 "hidden" options that could lead to better performance, but I will leave you to ask Sid about that.

My only complaint is the finish as the paint they use chips easily and has started stripping on my limbs. I really suggest you guys at Border look into it as its quite a major issue when catering for people who are very clumsy (me included)! The custom paint job options on Border limbs are virtually endless, but they set back your delivery time a lot as its a tiny workshop with staff numbers smaller than Hoyt's janitors....

If you are willing to go off and buy a set, get ready for an amazing experience, as their customer service is impeccable, just good thing take time to make.

Harrison.


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## Greysides (Jun 10, 2009)

Thanks Sid.


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## GIGABOW (Feb 1, 2009)

Why it is not possible for Borderbow = Sid to make
a finish like W&W or Hoyt ??

I can not understand this problem !?


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## Borderbows (Apr 4, 2009)

Gigabow, have you seen our limbs...

As for the rest of the issues. We have been investigating possible sources of air system contamination to help address some imperfections, but the paint system we use is devised for the Automotive industry. and cars dont chip that easy?

I can tell you our remit of a surface system though, as we dont cherry pick models, nor do we restrict people to one colour.
for example.
We make about 1000 bows a year, and we have 12 staff.
We give ourself full freedom of creativity on limb width and profile as to try and find the best shooting bow, and not limit ourselves to heavy capital costs on tooling to optimise production. So this leads us to the freedom to make some of the worlds finest crossbow prods, Longbows, flatbows, onepeice recurves, take down recurves and ILF limbs. On the ILF limbs we have 3 recurve profiles, 2 models on each, and in 8 different limb lengths.
We can custom tiller a set to be stable/slower or faster/twitcher, or the compromise we make as standard. How can we do this with one size preset limb graphic.
so instead you have a choice of colours even to match your car, choice of logos, and even a satin or gloss finish on everything.
So, we now need it to stand up to abuse, and when we fail to meet reasonable expectations we offer our help. Brians comment is our only visable testiment to that stated above.
Now can you please ask W&W or Hoyt to do this?
http://www.archery-interchange.net/forum/border-archery/22349-my-new-pink-butterfly-limbs-d.html

and 
http://www.archery-interchange.net/forum/border-archery/12261-show-us-your-set-up-target-ilf-8.html

we do aim high and we are always open to critisism, that way we know where we have let you down, and we will (by the sounds of this post) need to dig a bit deeper on the finsh front.
We are a subtle brand, and intend to keep it that way but the custom finish is there is you want lime green on an orange background.

We hope to help and are here to listen, and we take it personally when we get it wrong.


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## DariusXV (Feb 18, 2009)

...and that is precisely why my next limbs will be through your company.

Thank you.


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## Hank D Thoreau (Dec 9, 2008)

I spent the afternoon bareshaft tuning indoors. I found, as suggested, that you need to put the arrow right on the center line. After doing this and making a few minor tweaks to the center point, I was able to get a decent group with my bareshafts and a perfect hole through paper. I will take the limbs outdoors tomorrow and see how they do at longer distances. I also hope to create the draw force curves for my three 36 lb limb sets that I have been testing (see earlier post with link to Archery-Interchange).


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## Brock Samson (Jul 13, 2009)

First, I'd like to say that ever since I first read about Border limbs, I've been curious about them, and when I finally get to my "final weight", I plan to order a set of Borders. I really appreciate the way they post here and try to explain the "hows" and "whys" of the way the parts of the bow (and shooter, for that matter) all interact to produce the shot, even when it's way over my head.

Second, I've never seen a set of Border limbs in person, so this is completely speculative, but it is possible that the extra curvature of the limbs is stressing the paint? I know that on most cars, even the clear-coat-over-colored-primer finishes that if you hit, say, one of the quarter panels, it can "star" the finish due to flexing beyond what the finish can handle. Also, look at most vintage guitars, and the finish is loaded with cracks due to the wood and the finish expanding and contracting at different rates in response to humidity and temperature.

Third, an idea for a custom finish - I think maybe doing a veneer of some exotic hardwoods with an oil/urethane or high-gloss finish would be amazing (my years of playing and drooling over high-end guitars and basses is influencing me here)! Obviously, the veneer would have to be pretty thin to have minimal effect on the limbs, but man, they'd be beautiful!


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## Progen (Mar 17, 2006)

Brock Samson said:


> ... the veneer would have to be pretty thin to have minimal effect on the limbs, but man, they'd be beautiful!


You'd be thinking of dipping the riser next to get it to match.  But YES, it'd be beautiful.


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## Hank D Thoreau (Dec 9, 2008)

I always liked the look and finish of Border limbs. I buy wood core because the woodwork is beautiful and they are cheaper -- which is a real bonus. I have shot a whole season with Border CXB limbs and have had no problems with the finish. My HEX5 are looking pretty good so far. I thought it would be interesting to have my Zenit powder coated Border brown with little Scottish embellishments like the limbs. The brown would be very different and distinctive. You don't look like a walking billboard with Border limbs like you do with Hoyt and Win Win.


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## GIGABOW (Feb 1, 2009)

SID - 

YES I saw some of your limbs and I spoke with 5 Border-owners
in Germany.

They all would be happy to get a more professional limb-painting.

Your limbs are very good - but the paint of W&W or Hoyt is better.

I hope this is a helpful information for you to make a better finish !

So long !


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## Hank D Thoreau (Dec 9, 2008)

I have added draw force curves to my post in the Border Forum of Archery-Interchange.

I found that the HEX5 did not begin to stack until beyond 32 inches (only one data point at 33 inches so there is really not enough data to be definitive about stacking - I was not about to try and draw 34 inches with an Easton scale.). The Border HEX5W were far superior at longer draw lengths than any of the other limbs I tested. Perhaps Sid will tell us whether this is what he would expect.

Here is the link.

http://www.archery-interchange.net/...native-use-first-impression-2.html#post363455


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## Borderbows (Apr 4, 2009)

Hank D Thoreau said:


> I have added draw force curves to my post in the Border Forum of Archery-Interchange.
> 
> I found that the HEX5 did not begin to stack until beyond 32 inches (only one data point at 33 inches so there is really not enough data to be definitive about stacking - I was not about to try and draw 34 inches with an Easton scale.). The Border HEX5W were far superior at longer draw lengths than any of the other limbs I tested. Perhaps Sid will tell us whether this is what he would expect.
> 
> ...


The finish aside. (as we can do nothing about it on a forum, but look into it, we sure will.)

As ive said on many a thread before the smoothness is easy to test.
You dont need a DFC to tell you that, but you do need to know what to look for and why.
Using the same method to mark arrows for your draw length. you can check the smoothness of your bow against another.
With a recurve, the smoothest part of the DFC is where the string lifts off the limb surface. and sits only on the shoulders of the limb tip.
you can check this against a DFC, to validate the smoothest point.
bet here goes.
For a conventional 25" riser, and med limbs, you can draw the bow back and note that the string come clear of the limb face at 20-22" depending on brand.
The smoother one is 22" and stacky models about 20"
you need to mark an arrow at the same reference point, but we use the front of the bow. (where the clicker usually is) Mark the arrow when the string comes off and let the bow down. Now repeat this process with the second bow you want to check, and remark the arrow on the second one. The mark further down the arrow will be the smoother design.
For example, the string will lift off a 66" bow faster than a 70" bow.
The string will lift off a limb wound in faster than it will a limb bolt wound out.
Short limbs lift off quicker too.
It really is that simple.
Now, the most horizontal part of the DFC, the part that comes after the preload belly, and before the climb into stack, will be the smoothest part.
if you drop a vertical line down from the flattest part of the DFC, you will see that it relates to the exact same spot as the string lift test.

Now. lets look at smoothness in another term. If you take the numbers from your DFC and look at the increments, you will see that the average target bow lbs increase is 2lbs. (40lbs bow at 28", 8" brace hight, 28" draw = 20" of draw, 40lbs/20" = 2lbs per inch). If you look at the data on a DFC, you will see that you start with 5lbs, in the 8-9" draw,(the first inch)
the second stage is 3.5lbs, and this will drop on a 40lbs bow to some 1.6lbs at the smoothest inch of draw.
this smoothest part will be about 20-22" of draw lenght on the DFC which also relates to the string lift off point. 
here is a lbs increase graph per inch of draw,
http://www.borderbows.com/Downloads/Hex5MK11DFC.pdf

here you will see that in the first inch, you have the highest Lbs needed to draw the bow. Then the bow gets easier to pull, and then as you get past the smoothest part the stack kicks in. You will see on this graph that the black line ramps up to 2lbs per inch at 31" of draw, and the smoothest part is 27". the other two limbs are Winnex and G3. i can only assume you guys know which one is which.

This to me shows that the string comes off at 27" on the Hex5, and 22" on the smoother of the other two brands, and 20" on the stackier limbs.

Could go on for hours so i'll shut up now...


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## Borderbows (Apr 4, 2009)

Brock Samson said:


> First, I'd like to say that ever since I first read about Border limbs, I've been curious about them, and when I finally get to my "final weight", I plan to order a set of Borders. I really appreciate the way they post here and try to explain the "hows" and "whys" of the way the parts of the bow (and shooter, for that matter) all interact to produce the shot, even when it's way over my head.
> 
> Second, I've never seen a set of Border limbs in person, so this is completely speculative, but it is possible that the extra curvature of the limbs is stressing the paint? I know that on most cars, even the clear-coat-over-colored-primer finishes that if you hit, say, one of the quarter panels, it can "star" the finish due to flexing beyond what the finish can handle. Also, look at most vintage guitars, and the finish is loaded with cracks due to the wood and the finish expanding and contracting at different rates in response to humidity and temperature.
> 
> Third, an idea for a custom finish - I think maybe doing a veneer of some exotic hardwoods with an oil/urethane or high-gloss finish would be amazing (my years of playing and drooling over high-end guitars and basses is influencing me here)! Obviously, the veneer would have to be pretty thin to have minimal effect on the limbs, but man, they'd be beautiful!


I hear what your saying...
Though the paint doesnt crack. the compression and tension on a limb surface is quite something, and the epoxy we use doesnt budge.
The bows we do for the traditional side travel all over the world from alaska to Afganistan. (Army personel based out there) and all are fine. These are exotic wood bows.

The next fun point is we use 100% solid carbon laminates on our bows. the limb is a carbon limb in the true sence of the word.
The advantage of carbon is often not seen as "carbon" limbs often have considerable amounts of glass fiber in them. even some top limbs are not far off limbs of 20 years ago in terms of basic construction with them being glass based. but have some carbon in them so are termed "carbon" limbs.

now, the problem with carbon is that is black. you cant see though it.
We have a technology where we can get wood vaneers to work on our longbows on the outside of the carbon. 
http://peteward.com/2007%20new%20pages/test.border.griffon.html
Here is a Indonesian rosewood vaneered Longbow that 100% carbon limbed...
We tried a zebrano vaneer on a CXG as part of our GLX testing, where we tried to apply the GL (GlassLess) idea of recurves. There were 50 GLX recurves of which after 6-7 months of shooting the Vaneer started to fail on some 35% of bows. So we had to go back to the drawing board. We still havent managed to find a solution to a wood vaneer on the recurves when they have a carbon laminate.

Its not that easy getting wood to live on a bow limb.


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## jmvargas (Oct 21, 2004)

i was curious about the comments on the finish of border limbs so i just now compared my borders to my pse pro-elites(made by win&win) and sky conquest carbons(it says designed by earl hoyt jr.)---sori i no longer have any hoyt limbs--and i really can't see or appreciate any difference---except for the much darker colors of my borders..

but then i take really good care of my limbs and ALWAYS use a bowstringer....


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## Hank D Thoreau (Dec 9, 2008)

I am going to measure the draw point on each tested limb where the string loses contact with the limb. I will need two helpers for that. Stay tuned.


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## Hank D Thoreau (Dec 9, 2008)

I posted a graph showing the first derivative of the draw force curve to compare stacking between the four test limbs. Follow the link to Archery-Interchange.

http://www.archery-interchange.net/...-hex5-alternative-use-first-impression-2.html


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## Shinigami3 (Oct 7, 2009)

Those Borders that blew up on the RX riser at Nationals today sure were loud!!


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## Greysides (Jun 10, 2009)

That comes across as gloating. Don't all manufacturers limbs let go from time to time? Including those of the main players in the market?


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## Jim C (Oct 15, 2002)

Greysides said:


> That comes across as gloating. Don't all manufacturers limbs let go from time to time? Including those of the main players in the market?


Larry Brown had a set of Hoyts go yesterday. No big deal to those who understand archery and the gear.


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## Borderbows (Apr 4, 2009)

Thanks for the heads up Shinigami... They were ther very first pair of HEXRX limbs, I'll be able to start a replacement pair before the Archer even has a chance of getting in touch.

Be nice to get the limbs back and learn what failed.

Afterall, we have limbs that have made it to 47" under this current constuction.


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