# Archery shops should have to buy arrows back...



## Rick McKinney (Mar 4, 2008)

Two or three sizes too stiff? Maybe they are using Easton arrow charts....


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Rick McKinney said:


> Two or three sizes too stiff? Maybe they are using Easton arrow charts....


I think in some cases, where they actually make an attempt to select the right arrows for a customer, that could be true. 

In many cases I hear about, they don't even do that much. They just figure if someone is shooting recurve or barebow, they aren't that worried about hitting the bullseye and they just sell them some compound arrows they have in stock. It's beyond ridiculous the things I've seen.

Ask Larry Seale what arrows he was shooting when he and I met. 

Perfect example, and that shop owner was not a jerk. He just didn't have a clue how to select arrows for a recurve.


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## Danilo13 (Feb 6, 2020)

It's really up to the customer to be educated before spending money. Not everyone has a quality shop around, and until recently I did not have much option so I went out and learned everything I could. 
Now I actually have a good shop opening up in the area, and I can trust what comes out of there.


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## Viper1 (Aug 21, 2003)

Danilo -

I had a lengthy reply typed out, but you said it a lot more succinctly. 
And lets be real, a "new shooter" doesn't need perfectly spined arrows, in fact even with the same bow, the arrows he "needs" on day one, probably won't be the same as he'll need three months later. 

I'm not saying that shops "shouldn't" know better, but it's a two way street.

And oh yeah, ever see any of the "what arrow" threads here? Ten guys reply with 12 different suggestions. Until some one is shooting well enough to tune, close enough (as in the arrows aren't coming out side ways) is close enough. 

Rick -

Yeah, there's that 

Guys - sounds like somebody is bored....

Viper1 out.


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## 40n105w! (Dec 29, 2016)

When I first started with bare bow I was shooting 26 1/2 lbs otf and was given arrows that I now know where actually more appropriate for 32lbs or so. I now shoot arrows three steps softer and am very happy with this setup BUT I had to figure it out myself (and with the help of the good folks here).

When we set my wife's bow up we went to a shop that had a basket full of test arrows. The owner started by finding what the charts recommended and then changed things a bit to get a little closer AND THEN allowed her to bare shaft a few arrows to make sure we were in the ball park. THAT'S service! Her arrows fly like darts and go here she points them!

The funny thing about my experience was the shop was NOT a compound or hunting oriented shop. The guy running the place was an OR archer who was personally switching over to BB. He pretty much sold that same arrow to anyone shooting 25 to 35 lbs. No telling what you'll find out there, heh?


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## Stash (Jun 1, 2002)

I spent 5 years running the archery department of a store that was part of a large chain of outdoor hunting/fishing retail establishments (which shall go nameless 😄). At the time we carried a small selection of lightweight recurves, but had no arrows lower than .500 spine. I had a very difficult time convincing customers interested in the recurves not to buy any of our arrows, and actually got reprimanded on more than one occasion by the hunting department manager for it. Ironically, he was an experienced bowhunter who knew what the problem was, but $$$ was clearly more important.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Danilo13 said:


> It's really up to the customer to be educated before spending money. Not everyone has a quality shop around, and until recently I did not have much option so I went out and learned everything I could.
> Now I actually have a good shop opening up in the area, and I can trust what comes out of there.


Right, and they go to an archery shop to talk to professionals in the archery industry, to educate themselves.


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## 1/2 Bubble Off (Dec 29, 2016)

limbwalker said:


> If they recommend the wrong spine and the customer has to buy another set of arrows.
> 
> Honestly I'm so sick of reading all the stories of knuckleheads with zero experience with recurves or barebow recommending arrows that are 2-3 or more sizes too stiff. At the very least, they should be ashamed and IMO they should be willing to replace the arrows.
> 
> ...


I don't disagree....I personally fell into this but I caught it before I actually cut the arrows...

The customer called me and asked about arrows:

Him - My son needs some .350 spine arrows.... Deer season starts in a few weeks and his grandfather wants to take him bowhunting. He's down to 3 arrows.... What do you have in stock?

Me - Kill'n Stix Originals, Ventilators and PT Series.... [insert prices here]

Him - Great, can you cut some Originals to his length?

Me - Absolutely, what length do you need?

Him - I'll be home in an hour, let me measure and I'll call you back.

He called me back a while later

Him - His current arrows are 19.5" long and do you have any Rage broadheads in stock????

Me - Wait.... 19.5" .350 spine arrows.... how old is he?

Him - He's 11 and drawing 37#... do you think you could leave them a little longer... I feel like he has a growth spurt coming....

Me - Before we do anything, you should bring him in so I can see what we're working with....

It turns out, he was shooting a Diamond Edge 320 that was capable from 7-70# and the guy at Dick's Sporting Goods told him to "always buy stiff enough arrows to cover you at the max draw weight your bow is capable of". 

I had him come in and his DL was way too short, peep was too high and the kid had never been taught how to shoot a bow....

I spent about an hour with them and sold him some .500 spine arrows, 125gr TOTA broadheads and adjusted the bow to fit him. He was holding a 5" group at 20yds when they left. (even tighter when he wasn't punching the trigger)

Note: I'm aware .500 spine is still stiff but it's only one size too stiff.... and Dad decided $90/dozen Huntsman (Arachnid Archery) arrows were a better option than the .600 spine Micro Ventilator LTs (Kill'n Stix) for $200/dozen. 

Lesson Learned - If I would've just given him what he asked for.... he'd have ended up with incredibly stiff arrows that were way too short for him to shoot. The practice I've now adopted is... Always ASK questions to avoid giving folks something they don't need or can't use.


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## FerrumVeritas (Oct 9, 2020)

So you can’t trust the shops, because any given shop is unlikely to have an experienced recurve shooter on staff.
Then you to go the manufacturer. But their spine charts are always wrong (Rick and Viper blast the Easton chart regularly; Limbwalker said CX threw out his spine chart for their arrows and went with one that’s way off). So you’re supposed to educate yourself.

Without buying 3-5 spines worth of arrows, an arrow saw, and more points than a debate club, how do you do that?


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## cbd10pt (Jun 11, 2004)

The shop should start you out just a tad on the stiff side and provide you with point weights to get you where you need to be


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

FerrumVeritas said:


> So you can’t trust the shops, because any given shop is unlikely to have an experienced recurve shooter on staff.
> Then you to go the manufacturer. But their spine charts are always wrong (Rick and Viper blast the Easton chart regularly; Limbwalker said CX threw out his spine chart for their arrows and went with one that’s way off). So you’re supposed to educate yourself.
> 
> Without buying 3-5 spines worth of arrows, an arrow saw, and more points than a debate club, how do you do that?


Right now, it's totally trial and error unless you have a shop owner who actually cares - as in posts #6 and #9 above.

Every archery shop should have a bin of bare shaft test arrows. Hell, I have that in my garage! So they can at LEAST be in the right ballpark when recommending arrows. It's not that hard to do. But, the owner has to first care, and second, care enough to LEARN about tuning a bow that is not a compound. And for a lot of them, that's a bridge too far.


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## khart1988 (May 6, 2012)

I'll be the first to say that the only reason I ever call shops is for spare parts, but I'll completely disagree with that.

If a bare bow archer is calling a shop to ask what arrows they need for their personal bow, there's no chance they'll be able to tell the difference between a perfectly spined arrow and one that is "close enough." Anyone can read a spine chart to get started, and how would the shop know exactly what arrow a specific model/style of bow would require? That requires a shooter who is good enough they can shoot adequate groups to tune an arrow to their specific bow.

If the shop employee puts you in a spine that's technically too stiff and the shooter progresses to heavier limbs, better form, and cleaner releases in a few months, they'll need a stiffer spine anyway.

And what is the customer base of bare bow shooters to compound for shops? 10%? 5%? 1%? It's tough to employ a shop full of people who have broad knowledge across all bow types, or know that they'll need to find a specific tuning chart for the couple people who shoot a recurve.


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## "TheBlindArcher" (Jan 27, 2015)

Bit of a side question; Thoughts on the accuracy/usability of the 3 Rivers Archery dynamic spine calculator? Not that it's overly critical, I don't recurve well enough to notice a difference; I am that arrow thrower whose recurve is set up nock high and point outside of string line with no consideration to brace, tiller, or that I'm shooting parallel shafts... Being said,I wouldn't trust my local bow shop any more than myself for my poor arrow choices. 

Fortunately, Viper1 has saved me a huge amount of recurving stress... I suck too much to bother tuning


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## williamskg6 (Dec 21, 2008)

Danilo13 said:


> It's really up to the customer to be educated before spending money. Not everyone has a quality shop around, and until recently I did not have much option so I went out and learned everything I could.
> Now I actually have a good shop opening up in the area, and I can trust what comes out of there.


The problem is that the customer may not have sufficient knowledge to even know how to educate themselves or even that the shop they asked for advice doesn't know what they're talking about. You can go into these shops and rather than admit they don't know the first thing about arrows for recurve shooters they will confidently grab whatever they think would work (based on their compound hunting bow expertise) and make the sale. The shooter, thinking they've been given expert advice, will not only have wasted their money but will be unwilling to listen to someone else giving them correct advice. "But the pro shop told me these are the right arrows."

Simply putting the responsibility on the uninformed customer is a little rough, but I get that ... unless they ask for advice from a shop. At that point, I believe it should be the shop's responsibility to take the return if they give bad advice. Again, though, the problem is that a new shooter may not know enough to know their arrows are wrong or that the shop didn't know what they are talking about. Plus, shops that don't know what they're talking about will simply fall back on the charts if they don't just guess outright, which are notoriously incorrect for recurve shooters. So, the problem will persist. I can wish all I want for it to go away, but it will not until arrow manufacturers do a better job with their charts.

Having said that, anyone tried Victory Archery's online arrow spine selector for VAP arrows? It's way, way closer to correct than Easton's charts, at least for me. Why other manufacturers can't seem to do this I don't know. If Easton's charts require "correction factors", they need to be plainly and clearly specified on the chart, which they currently do not do. Their online selector isn't any better. Easton's online selector recommended 480 to 560 spine arrows for me using the target shaft selector. In reality, 800 spine is on the stiff side for me. That's a heck of a "correction factor" I need to use Easton's charts, to the point where it's purely a guessing game. So, shops that have no expertise are left with no option but to guess. I suppose that means I'm saying a hefty amount of blame belongs to the arrow manufacturers in addition to clueless shops. With the possible exception of Victory. They were only off by one size (700) and with my crappy shooting, a 700 would probably work OK with a heavier point.


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## 1/2 Bubble Off (Dec 29, 2016)

FerrumVeritas said:


> *So you can’t trust the shops, because any given shop is unlikely to have an experienced recurve shooter on staff.*
> Then you to go the manufacturer. But their spine charts are always wrong (Rick and Viper blast the Easton chart regularly; Limbwalker said CX threw out his spine chart for their arrows and went with one that’s way off). So you’re supposed to educate yourself.
> 
> Without buying 3-5 spines worth of arrows, an arrow saw, and more points than a debate club, how do you do that?


If I had a customer asking me for help selecting arrows for a recurve, I'd be on the phone with a friend who was an accomplished OR shooter and now a very well known BB shooter.

I KNOW my limitations as a shop owner.... I'd hate to have someone leave my shop believing they wasted their time and money.


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## Thestudent (Nov 8, 2018)

Danilo13 said:


> It's really up to the customer to be educated before spending money. Not everyone has a quality shop around, and until recently I did not have much option so I went out and learned everything I could.
> Now I actually have a good shop opening up in the area, and I can trust what comes out of there.


Exactly....the local shop around here is terrible. I've gotten burned on arrows, strings, and accessories. Never again will that happen. I hope a decent shop can open and sustain here but many have come and gone so not likely


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## Viper1 (Aug 21, 2003)

Ferrum - 

What you do is simple. Do a little research, there actually are a few places that will get you fairly close. Then buy 1/2 dozen arrows and start shooting. Like I said above, when you get to a point where tuning is possible, those arrows will tell you if they are right or not or which way you have to go.

Yeah, it's a process, and by NOT having the sales guy give you the "perfect arrows", you might actually be forced to learn something along the way. And again, being real, even if the sales guy does know what he's doing and cares, the best he can do is get you close. 

Viper1 out.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

khart1988 said:


> I'll be the first to say that the only reason I ever call shops is for spare parts, but I'll completely disagree with that.
> 
> *If a bare bow archer is calling a shop to ask what arrows they need for their personal bow, there's no chance they'll be able to tell the difference between a perfectly spined arrow and one that is "close enough."* Anyone can read a spine chart to get started, and how would the shop know exactly what arrow a specific model/style of bow would require? That requires a shooter who is good enough they can shoot adequate groups to tune an arrow to their specific bow.
> 
> ...


typical attitude toward barebow. Move along.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

1/2 Bubble Off said:


> If I had a customer asking me for help selecting arrows for a recurve, I'd be on the phone with a friend who was an accomplished OR shooter and now a very well known BB shooter.
> 
> I KNOW my limitations as a shop owner.... I'd hate to have someone leave my shop believing they wasted their time and money.


We need more like you - who are willing to admit they don't know everything and who also care enough to learn or at least reach out to someone with the experience you don't have. That is rare in my experience though. These days, it's hard to find a shop owner who is willing to admit they don't know anything about recurve or barebow, much less give enough of a damn to do the legwork.

I've run into a whole slew of shop owners that think any arrow spined below 500 is a "kids" arrow and that no recurve or barebow archer is "serious" about shooting well. 

In their defense, I'd wager that most shop owners these days never grew up shooting recurve or barebow. Some might have never even shot a bow with their fingers. Fewer still have seen a GOOD recurve or barebow archer. 

But damn. At least be willing to learn or call someone who knows, and then back up your recommendations.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Come to think of it, maybe the reason some shop owners have never seen a GOOD recurve or barebow archer is because they keep selling them arrows that are incapable of shooting well. LOL


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## Wiscoboy (Feb 18, 2019)

Most shops I have seen lately can barely setup a compound with the correct arrows, that alone a trad bow. Its sad, but most pro shops idea of a tune is bolting on the accesories and helping you sight in. If you get bad broadhead flight, switch to mechanicals, preferably one that the tv personalities use. 

Most guys could do far better work with basic tools for any bow, but especially a recurve or barebow shooter.


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## Boomer2094 (Aug 12, 2016)

It's a shame, but very few (I mean, VERY few) archery shops deal in OR/Barebow/Trad archery... Most of them are more compound - especially hunting - focused because that's the majority of their customer base. So I can't blame them for not knowing much about recurves/longbows and what arrow spines are suitable for what poundage/draw length because that it NOT who they are dealing with day in and day out.

With that said, it would be helpful for the shops to have someone that is knowledgeable that can help beginners get set up with basic bow/arrow combo so they can at least get started down the journey... they will pick up knowledge as they go along, but someone has to get them started.


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## FerrumVeritas (Oct 9, 2020)

This response is so condescending it makes my blood boil.



Viper1 said:


> Ferrum -
> 
> What you do is simple. Do a little research, there actually are a few places that will get you fairly close.


"A little research" like go to a freaking specialized retailer and asking their advertised expert opinion? Which is basically always wrong? Or by going to the manufacturer of the arrows and looking up their recommendation? Hard to get more expert than that. And yet it's wrong. Hell, you've groused about it plenty.

Saying "there actually are a few places that will get you fairly close" and then not actually pointing towards them is just being obtuse. 



> Then buy 1/2 dozen arrows and start shooting. Like I said above, when you get to a point where tuning is possible, those arrows will tell you if they are right or not or which way you have to go.
> 
> Yeah, it's a process, and by NOT having the sales guy give you the "perfect arrows",


No one is asking for that. But close enough to actually tune with one type of adjustment (tiller bolts, point weight, or trim within an inch) should definitely be possible. Being told to waste money drives people away from archery. Arrows are more expensive than most people expect them to be.



> you might actually be forced to learn something along the way.


This is just being a jerk, and you're aware of that.


> And again, being real, even if the sales guy does know what he's doing and cares, the best he can do is get you close.


That's all anyone is asking for. That's a reasonable expected result that following the manufacturer spine charts or asking the majority of sales people won't actually ****ing get you.

And for the record, I have figured it out. But it took $200 in cheap shafts and components, two months of actually shooting and trying to make each configuration work as best as I could, and then comparing the real recorded results. But that’s an absolute waste of time and money that not just the vast majority of beginners, but the vast majority of archers simply won’t bother with. And, really, they shouldn’t have to. There is enough room within a given spine to tune that someone should absolutely be able to get close enough with one purchase.


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## FerrumVeritas (Oct 9, 2020)

Boomer2094 said:


> It's a shame, but very few (I mean, VERY few) archery shops deal in OR/Barebow/Trad archery... Most of them are more compound - especially hunting - focused because that's the majority of their customer base. So I can't blame them for not knowing much about recurves/longbows and what arrow spines are suitable for what poundage/draw length because that it NOT who they are dealing with day in and day out.
> 
> With that said, it would be helpful for the shops to have someone that is knowledgeable that can help beginners get set up with basic bow/arrow combo so they can at least get started down the journey... they will pick up knowledge as they go along, but someone has to get them started.


I can't fault them for not knowing, but I can fault them for not being willing to say "I don't know." Giving someone the wrong information to save face and make a sale is unethical, and why I don't recommend any recurve shooter go to a shop.


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## woof156 (Apr 3, 2018)

I agree with a lot that has been said here-- in a number of shops they are geared for compound not recurve tho they may have a few hunting wt bows. People come in and want arrows and are not often told to go to 3Rs or Lancaster for them- they want to shoot today. As Viper and other have said in the beginning of the process 500 spine may be OK and as the archer progressed to heavier limbs they will be better and better and more accurate. But how many of us who have been shooting for years are still shooting the same arrows? Most of us have a forest of old arrows in the garage from the process of learning what we really need/want, settling on a "forever bow wt" and leaning to tune. I teach archery to beginning students using 15 and 20-25# bows shooting 500 spine arrows (it is what was available) and frankly don't see much of a problem at that level. My advice to them as they buy their own bow is to reconsider the arrow spine..


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## woof156 (Apr 3, 2018)

FerrumVeritas said:


> This response is so condescending it makes my blood boil.
> 
> "A little research" like go to a freaking specialized retailer and asking their advertised expert opinion? Which is basically always wrong? Or by going to the manufacturer of the arrows and looking up their recommendation? Hard to get more expert than that. And yet it's wrong. Hell, you've groused about it plenty.
> 
> Saying "there actually are a few places that will get you fairly close" and then not actually pointing towards them is just being obtuse.


I am thinking that at the beginning close is pretty good. The question might be if you move on to higher bow wts and more serious shooting would you not also do some of your research into arrows and start to think about what your really need. ??? Maybe at that point someone in the pro shop should be able to let them know that close is not good enuf and even if they can't help them point them in the right direction... Hells bells after years I am still playing with arrows, tip wts, spine..maybe too much... Nothing like getting involved in your own research and decisions.


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## 40n105w! (Dec 29, 2016)

I just tried the Victory Arrow selection app and it put me one step from what I'm shooting now and EXACTLY what my wife shoots. So much better than most of the charts out there! (Are you listening Easton?)


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

40n105w! said:


> I just tried the Victory Arrow selection app and it put me one step from what I'm shooting now and EXACTLY what my wife shoots. So much better than most of the charts out there! (Are you listening Easton?)


Victory has done a lot of things right from the very beginning. So many of my students have had success with their VAP's and my wife still shoots them. If I needed a budget training arrow, I'd just get a set of V1's and call it a day .


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## DNez2001 (Sep 3, 2017)

one day Rick pulled out a set of unfletched ACE arrows. There were 3 arrows of every spine in the ACE line, each cut to different lengths. Each had a screw-in insert, and used screw-in points to adjust point weight. It was and still is a fantastic way to be able to determine an archer's needed spine in real time thru paper tuning. 

I've asked him to will me those arrows . In the meantime, Easton should market a package like this to USA Archery Clubs to help their JOAD/AAP archers


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## FerrumVeritas (Oct 9, 2020)

limbwalker said:


> Victory has done a lot of things right from the very beginning. So many of my students have had success with their VAP's and my wife still shoots them. If I needed a budget training arrow, I'd just get a set of V1's and call it a day .


Maybe it’s because I stringwalk, but Victory’s calculator recommends too weak of a spine for me. By about one full spine. Easton ends up one to one and a half spines too stiff.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

FerrumVeritas said:


> Maybe it’s because I stringwalk, but Victory’s calculator recommends too weak of a spine for me. By about one full spine. Easton ends up one to one and a half spines too stiff.


A calculator that gets someone to within one spine is pretty good IMO. An archer who knows how to use all the tuning tools available to them can get that arrow to work at least.


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## FerrumVeritas (Oct 9, 2020)

limbwalker said:


> A calculator that gets someone to within one spine is pretty good IMO. An archer who knows how to use all the tuning tools available to them can get that arrow to work at least.


Sure. And while it’s an unpopular opinion, I’d rather an arrow that is too weak (but close) over one that’s too stiff (but equally close). It’s much easier to cut shafts, break off points, or lower draw weight a little bit. It’s much more difficult to make an arrow weaker without buying new stuff.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

FerrumVeritas said:


> Sure. And while it’s an unpopular opinion, I’d rather an arrow that is too weak (but close) over one that’s too stiff (but equally close). It’s much easier to cut shafts, break off points, or lower draw weight a little bit. It’s much more difficult to make an arrow weaker without buying new stuff.


Pretty easy to add nock end weight and not have to cut anything too.  

Lots of options to the person who is well-versed in tuning. Unfortunately that is the same person who is most likely to buy the correct spine to begin with, so it's a bit of a "round" problem... LOL


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## FerrumVeritas (Oct 9, 2020)

I’ve never really had success adding nock end weight for two reasons: I always shoot pin nocks, and I hate refletching.


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## Hikari (May 15, 2021)

...


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

FerrumVeritas said:


> I’ve never really had success adding nock end weight for two reasons: I always shoot pin nocks, and I hate refletching.


I understand but my point was that most folks either overlook this option or have no idea it exists, not to mention how effective it is. Usually folks just obsess over whether to use 100,110 or 120-grain points. LOL


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## m013690 (Sep 3, 2011)

woof156 said:


> People come in and want arrows and are not often told to go to 3Rs or Lancaster for them- they want to shoot today.


Yeah, but even Lancaster blows it. When I was new, I had them help me, and they told me Bohning Blazers were the best vanes I could get for my Olympic recurve arrows. So I took their advice. Lo and behold, Bohning Blazers are not best for OR and gave me all kinds of clearance issues, which makes sense because they are specifically labeled for hunting arrows with broad heads.

So, yeah. I was new, couldn’t find a shop anywhere that knew anything about OR, so I looked on here, learned about Lancaster, heard they were the experts and called them. And yes, I had told them it was for OR. And they still built me an arrow with vanes for the exact wrong use.

So, while I see where Viper was trying to go, I have to agree with the guy above that said Viper’s response was a bit condescending. Where would a new guy go to educate himself? Here, where opinions vary widely? Manufacturers’ spine charts that people on here are regularly criticizing? Lancaster Archery, who can apparently make the same sorts of mistakes as anyone else?

In fact, if any new person were to come on this very forum to try and educate himself, he’d probably just give it up as hopeless.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

m013690 said:


> Yeah, but even Lancaster blows it. When I was new, I had them help me, and they told me Bohning Blazers were the best vanes I could get for my Olympic recurve arrows. So I took their advice. Lo and behold, Bohning Blazers are not best for OR and gave me all kinds of clearance issues, which makes sense because they are specifically labeled for hunting arrows with broad heads.
> 
> So, yeah. I was new, couldn’t find a shop anywhere that knew anything about OR, so I looked on here, learned about Lancaster, heard they were the experts and called them. And yes, I had told them it was for OR. And they still built me an arrow with vanes for the exact wrong use.
> 
> ...


When you are new, FIND a qualified Olympic Recurve coach. Interview said "coach". Talk to the coaches students, evaluate the performance of said coach's students. Does the coach match your personality (meaning u get along, and communicate well with each other).


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## calbowdude (Feb 13, 2005)

Dang, some of you all got seriously burned! I got lucky I suppose, carbon arrows were literally just starting to come out (anyone remember Beman Diva and Ovation?) and the aluminum arrows that were available came in like 20 different sizes, when one included XX75, Game Getter and X7's. I also got lucky in that the "kid" behind the counter was a pretty good JOAD oly shooter (nearly 1200 at one point), and had already sorted out what spines for new recurvers holding lower weight.

Apparently this was a total luxury I took for granted, until I started cleaning up and trying to tune the purchases of the local uni archers as well as more than a few JOAD and adult archers... 26# at 27", shooting cut 500's and worse. Never did get all the arrows sorted.


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## m013690 (Sep 3, 2011)

nuts&bolts said:


> When you are new, FIND a qualified Olympic Recurve coach. Interview said "coach". Talk to the coaches students, evaluate the performance of said coach's students. Does the coach match your personality (meaning u get along, and communicate well with each other).


Sounds great!… unless you live somewhere with no one like that anywhere around. There are a lot of places like that. Same for shops. Finding an OR coach is just not that simple for a lot of people who might want to pick up the sport. When I started out, the closest qualified OR coach to me was a 4 hour drive.


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## woof156 (Apr 3, 2018)

m013690 said:


> Sounds great!… unless you live somewhere with no one like that anywhere around. There are a lot of places like that. Same for shops. Finding an OR coach is just not that simple for a lot of people who might want to pick up the sport. When I started out, the closest qualified OR coach to me was a 4 hour drive.


MAYBE NO EASY ANSWERS THEN WHAT----I am sure what you say is true for many people OK so what is plan B? Instead of expecting to go somewhere and have someone else tell you what you need, you have plan B= Find out yourself. So start not with what you need right now but be more basic; what is arrow spine, why is it important, how and what causes it to change etc-- all that infor is out there on the web in books and in videos- I know cause I had to find it at one point. Then to manufacturers spine charts get a few arrows some points of different wts (love the gold tip FACT point for this) build a few arrows -experiment and start tunning your arrows to your bow-- all that info is out there-- google is a great search engine. Problem is often people just want someone else to tell them what they need and don't want to get involved. I think that is basically what Viper was saying-- the information is out there and you will learn more by going out there and working through it yourself rather than getting a one liner advice from a proshop or a coach-- altho the latter can help with the rational for the journey in the first place and a good starting place. Each bow and archer is different so make it uniquely you...


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

m013690 said:


> Sounds great!… unless you live somewhere with no one like that anywhere around. There are a lot of places like that. Same for shops. Finding an OR coach is just not that simple for a lot of people who might want to pick up the sport. When I started out, the closest qualified OR coach to me was a 4 hour drive.


Some of us coaches work with people completely online.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

woof156 said:


> MAYBE NO EASY ANSWERS THEN WHAT----I am sure what you say is true for many people OK so what is plan B? Instead of expecting to go somewhere and have someone else tell you what you need, you have plan B= Find out yourself. So start not with what you need right now but be more basic; what is arrow spine, why is it important, how and what causes it to change etc-- all that infor is out there on the web in books and in videos- I know cause I had to find it at one point. Then to manufacturers spine charts get a few arrows some points of different wts (love the gold tip FACT point for this) build a few arrows -experiment and start tunning your arrows to your bow-- all that info is out there-- google is a great search engine. Problem is often people just want someone else to tell them what they need and don't want to get involved. I think that is basically what Viper was saying-- the information is out there and you will learn more by going out there and working through it yourself rather than getting a one liner advice from a proshop or a coach-- altho the latter can help with the rational for the journey in the first place and a good starting place. Each bow and archer is different so make it uniquely you...


REAL coaches don't do a one liner and call it good. Yes, a shooter can learn about Olympic recurve, and barebow completely alone, by himself, going through all kinds of arrows, starting with the wrong spine arrows sold by the pro shop, and then, experimenting with all kinds of shafts, and point weights, and arrow wraps, and vanes, and weight systems for the point, learning the hard way (means expensive) for dynamic spine, etc.

A coach will save a new recurve shooter (olympic or barebow or compound) a lot of time.


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## m013690 (Sep 3, 2011)

woof156 said:


> Then to manufacturers spine charts get a few arrows some points of different wts (love the gold tip FACT point for this) build a few arrows -experiment and start tunning your arrows to your bow-- all that info is out there-- google is a great search engine. Problem is often people just want someone else to tell them what they need and don't want to get involved.


Yes, for people new to any sport, they do need to be told what to get. It’s not that they don’t want to be involved, but they don’t know enough to even KNOW what they don’t know. They don’t even know enough to know what questions to ask.

Sh**, if they get the idea to start into the sport by going to a local shop, how would they even know THIS forum exists to start researching anything, or what a manufacturers’ spine chart is? And why would they? It’s an archery shop! To a potential newbie, THEY are the supposed experts. The guy goes to a shop and says “I want to get into archery,” and the guy behind the counter says “Cool! I can help you with that.” And you’d fault that newbie for not coming on here FIRST to fully educate himself before asking someone that TO HIM appears to be an expert? You’d expect him to first educate himself enough to determine if the supposed expert is ACTUALLY an expert?

But I don’t think that’s really all there is to it. If you want the sport to look really inaccessible to new blood, by all means, keep telling them the best way to start is by teaching themselves to build their own arrows. On the other hand, I would think it’s desirable to give the sport an on-ramp that’s a bit more gentle, which I think was Limbwalker’s initial idea.

I also ended up learning that way, up through building my own arrows and strings. And now I get it, and I’m shooting arrows that are perfectly tuned, even though Viper swears they should be “way too stiff.” Not that his knowledge is wrong, it just highlights how hard it can be.

As for the online coaching: that’s great! I wish I’d found it when I started. I truly do. But how would that help the new guy trying to figure out what arrows to buy? You won’t be able to lend him any to at least get in a ballpark range, and until he buys something as a baseline for you to watch him shoot, you won’t be able to see if they’re workable or way too far out of whack.

In essence, this forum seems to exude a message of: Olympic recurve archery is a sport for people who live very near one of the stores that are very few and very far between. I’ve felt that way since I started asking advice on here back in 2005, and it hasn’t changed much. I’ve just gotten to accept it.


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## m013690 (Sep 3, 2011)

Look, if an 8 y/o goes into Dick’s for a baseball bat, and they sell him an adult-size wooden bat instead of a little league size composite bat, we’d expect them to accept a return… and they should, because they totally botched it and failed their customer.

If the kid’s dad has said “Gee, that seems a little big,” and the sales rep said “He’ll grow into it,” that’s still a fault on the salesman, even though the parent tried to be involved. He had a _reasonable expectation_ that the person employed in the sporting goods store was well-versed in the equipment he was selling.


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## FerrumVeritas (Oct 9, 2020)

There are too many people here that think "I had to struggle to learn this, so you should too." That's a very insular attitude. 
The very basics of purchasing essential equipment should not be so obtuse. Period. 
Hell, as an experienced archer, I shouldn't have to order 2-3 different spines of arrows when switching brands to be confident in the baseline setup (before tuning). And yet...


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

nuts&bolts said:


> When you are new, FIND a qualified Olympic Recurve coach. Interview said "coach". Talk to the coaches students, evaluate the performance of said coach's students. Does the coach match your personality (meaning u get along, and communicate well with each other).


Evaluate the performance of said coach's students??? What a concept!


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

limbwalker said:


> Evaluate the performance of said coach's students??? What a concept!


We coach because we love to teach. We only succeed when our students achieve. Watching the students grow as people. Priceless.


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## Rookhawk (Oct 4, 2015)

The problem is archery advice and expertise is undervalued and justifiable product markup is overestimated. You end up with clownish archery shops making these types of recommendations as the consumer just wants to know how much the SKU costs.

The reality is the advice for selecting the proper arrows was worth $100. The arrows themselves were worth whatever the low-cost seller online or Amazon charges. But few people will pay the fair wage for the years of experience required for advanced expertise. Unless its a lawyer or accountant.


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## Danilo13 (Feb 6, 2020)

limbwalker said:


> Right, and they go to an archery shop to talk to professionals in the archery industry, to educate themselves.


That would be nice. It's rare, but it would be great.


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## khart1988 (May 6, 2012)

limbwalker said:


> typical attitude toward barebow. Move along.


Oh quit being so old and crotchety, not everyone is out to get you. I have no issue with people who shoot trad, and will be buying my trad equipment to compliment (or replace) my compound once my wife and I are debt-free.

It's the same situation with compound shooters. If someone has to ask what arrows they need, along with a host of other basic questions, they can't outshoot the spine that they are sold. Even if the kid making minimum wage behind the counter sells them a box that is two spines higher than they need.


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## m013690 (Sep 3, 2011)

woof156 said:


> OK so what is plan B?


Archery isn’t the only sport that requires such a precise fit for essential equipment, and other types of sports suppliers have figured it out. It’s remarkably similar to what Limbwalker suggested in the beginning.

Every single bike and running store I know has the same policy: “30-day fit guarantee. If it doesn’t work for you, bring it back for store credit, and we’ll try again.”

They’re experts, they want to market themselves as experts, so they stand behind their expertise.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

khart1988 said:


> Oh quit being so old and crotchety, not everyone is out to get you. I have no issue with people who shoot trad, and will be buying my trad equipment to compliment (or replace) my compound once my wife and I are debt-free.
> 
> It's the same situation with compound shooters. If someone has to ask what arrows they need, along with a host of other basic questions, they can't outshoot the spine that they are sold. Even if the kid making minimum wage behind the counter sells them a box that is two spines higher than they need.


You do realize that recurve and barebow target archery are a world apart from "trad" don't you?


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## SLC_Recurve (Jun 11, 2021)

40n105w! said:


> I just tried the Victory Arrow selection app and it put me one step from what I'm shooting now and EXACTLY what my wife shoots. So much better than most of the charts out there! (Are you listening Easton?)


Ok, after seeing this post, I decided to give it a shot.

Victory hit my spine dead on the money. When I first came back to the sport, going off the Easton charts, I was like 3 sizes too stiff. I kept blaming my form on why all the shots seemed to go left no matter how much I moved my sight. Hell, they would even group nicely. I just couldn't bring them in.

Several months later, I got some coaching. First session, first 3 ends, my coach tells me I'm overspined to death. He happened to have some .600 ACEs in the car. I shot them and oh my god. I was able to sight the bow. It wasn't me after all.

There has to be a better way. I wonder how many people quit archery because of this. A pro shop should have some kind of kit where there are 3 basic arrows of each of the most common spines for compound and recurve. Then they could at least settle on a spine that's in the neighborhood and go from there.

Or, better yet, a spine calculator that actually seems to work. I understand the Easton charts work for some people. But there are enough anecdotal stories out there that paint a picture that something ain't right. I just plugged the numbers in. It's recommending around .450. The selector doesn't even ask you the point weight. How can a spine calculator not ask that?

Here's a link: ARROW GUIDE – Victory Archery


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## Bowfreak (Jul 23, 2002)

limbwalker said:


> *(Please note this is a thread about RECURVE and BAREBOW arrows. Thanks)*
> 
> ...if they recommend the wrong spine and the customer has to buy another set of arrows.
> 
> ...


I can assure you there are more customers coming in my shop that have already purchased the wrong spine based on their own than shops telling them the wrong spine. People that don't understand spine and weight are different, Carbon Express numbers are backwards, these were a great buy from the Bass Pro Outlet, or their buddy shoots these and they shoot great out of his bow so they should work for me right?


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## "TheBlindArcher" (Jan 27, 2015)

I "tried" plugging in my numbers in the /Victory calculator... I hope it's right because it recommended a spine I've already ordered... 

Question though, how do you figure "IBO" rating of your OR?


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

This conversation reminds me of a scene I witnessed at the driving range (golf) last weekend. A family was there (trying) to hit balls and both kids had adult-sized clubs including 45" drivers. They could barely lift the clubs, much less hit the ball. What a difference it would have made to those kids if they had properly fit clubs for their size and ability. Chances are they won't even bother playing golf until they are full grown, if even then.

A few minutes later a young high school player got dropped off by his parents, and he started practicing. This kid was probably 4' 10" and maybe 100 lbs. He had properly sized and fitted clubs and he was crushing every shot.

I'd venture to guess the primary reason people try archery once and then never again is because of improperly fitted equipment. And you would think that shops dedicated to selling archery equipment would take the time to learn how to fit it to the archer. 

Sure, anyone can buy a set of golf clubs at Wal-Mart and avoid club fitting all together. But Wal-Mart isn't a golf shop. Any golf shop worth their salt will have a person working there who can fit a set of clubs to the customer so at least they can have a chance to hit the ball and get some enjoyment out of the game. 

What I see often in archery is the equivalent of a child or a woman going into a golf pro shop and being told to buy a men's set with x-stiff shafts.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

"TheBlindArcher" said:


> I "tried" plugging in my numbers in the /Victory calculator... I hope it's right because it recommended a spine I've already ordered...
> 
> Question though, *how do you figure "IBO" rating of your OR*?


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## FerrumVeritas (Oct 9, 2020)

"TheBlindArcher" said:


> I "tried" plugging in my numbers in the /Victory calculator... I hope it's right because it recommended a spine I've already ordered...
> 
> Question though, how do you figure "IBO" rating of your OR?


Just use their defaults.


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## BuzzMA (Jan 11, 2010)

If the ten year old Stu Miller "spreadsheet" dynamic spine calculator can get very reasonably close to predicting what spine will work for a particular bow then for the life of me I can't figure out why the largest arrow manufacturer can't come up with one. It defies logic that they still rely on a chart with only two parameters.


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## Viper1 (Aug 21, 2003)

Guys - 

The fallacy here is that most people are convinced they need the "right arrows" from the get-go and nothing could be further from the truth. 

New shooters can easily be 10# off in spine (pretty much in either direction) and have no trouble learning to shoot. (The NASP uses 20# Genesis bows and Genesis arrows that are 1820s which spine to about 53#, I guess they should be arrested, right?) By the time that "the right arrows" will be of benefit, they should be at a point where they can tune and figure it out for themselves. 

Any decent instructor or online source should get you close enough. 
Really, it sounds like some of you guys are more interested in bickering than shooting.

Viper1 out.


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## SLC_Recurve (Jun 11, 2021)

Viper1 said:


> Guys -
> 
> The fallacy here is that most people are convinced they need the "right arrows" from the get-go and nothing could be further from the truth.


I don't think anyone here is talking about a totally wet behind the ears shooter who doesn't know the difference between a compound and recurve.

We are talking about someone who is taking the plunge to get into shooting and buy some gear. Even if they are still new, yes, it's important they at least be close in spine. And when you leave a pro-shop, they should have something that's close or dead on to what your setup is that day.

Discussing what you walk out of an archery shop with, and what you find on the rack at an explore archery session is apples and oranges.


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## Viper1 (Aug 21, 2003)

SCL - 

None of that makes any sense.
If your ready to "take the plunge" for real, you either have an instructor lined up, or you've done some homework. That homework may be completely wrong, but it's still a start that can be worked from.

9/10 times either scenario will get you more than close enough. 

And btw - "dead-on" doesn't exist for a new shooter. Even if it did, it wouldn't be "dead-on" a few months down the line. 

Viper1 out.


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## khart1988 (May 6, 2012)

limbwalker said:


> You do realize that recurve and barebow target archery are a world apart from "trad" don't you?


Sure, but you still have to learn how to shoot well enough to reasonably tune your bow and recognize that you're shooting improperly spined arrows.

You do realize that however finely you choose to discriminate between archery disciplines, the mechanics are still the same don't you?


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## SLC_Recurve (Jun 11, 2021)

Viper1 said:


> SCL -
> 
> None of that makes any sense.
> If your ready to "take the plunge" for real, you either have an instructor lined up, or you've done some homework.


That's where you're wrong. This is simply not true of many shooters ready to take the plunge for the first time. Many of them have done explore archery a few times, want to get into it and go to a pro-shop, the supposed experts, to set them on the right gear path. New shooters have far more fundamental things to think of, like basic form, before they start reading up on spines and point weights. And shooting completely incorrect gear will not give them the right feedback to let them know if their form is progressing.

Let's take intermediate shooters. When I re-entered the sport (as I posted before), going off the charts, my arrows weren't flying right, were never going to fly right and I had spent months trying to figure it out, and I had done my homework (the Easton charts). Since I had gone off the charts, I didn't think my spine could be grossly wrong.

Only a chance encounter with a highly qualified individual got me out of the weeds. My 'homework' told me to shoot a completely incorrect arrow.

You need to remember that many, many shooters live in an area with ZERO or very limited resources for instruction. Many others barely scrape together the money for the gear and don't have the scratch to pay the going rates for formal instruction.

The people I am talking about should expect to be able to go into a shop, and walk out with something reasonably fitted to them. I don't see why this is a controversial statement for you.


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## 963369 (Nov 15, 2003)

Some of the better shops will set you up with a couple/three arrows of differing spine ratings, and a handful of differing point weight with which you can experiment.
Really good shops will help you, with that kit, get close and assist to a degree.
Really great shops will check YOU. Form, release, aiming, etc., AND walk you through tuning(if they know how).
But....all have in common the purchase of three shafts in three sizes that span the draw of your bow at your DL. Saves money, heartache, and builds a repeat happy customer.


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## Viper1 (Aug 21, 2003)

SCL - 

Oh, if there were only a book that covered all of that stuff .... 

Viper1 out.


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## SLC_Recurve (Jun 11, 2021)

Viper1 said:


> Oh, if there were only a book that covered all of that stuff ....


Yeah, I guess the pro-shop should toss a book at a new shooter and tell them to come back in a few months.


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## FerrumVeritas (Oct 9, 2020)

I’m sorry, but I should not have to buy a book to learn how to buy arrows. That’s asinine.
Arrow manufacturers should make it easy to get something close to the correct arrow. Arrow sellers (pro shops) should be able to get you the correct products. That’s a reasonable basic expectation of any customer buying anything. Acting like it isn’t is ****ing absurd.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

khart1988 said:


> Sure, but you still have to learn how to shoot well enough to reasonably tune your bow and recognize that you're shooting improperly spined arrows.
> 
> You do realize that however finely you choose to discriminate between archery disciplines, the mechanics are still the same don't you?


So using my analogy above, I suppose you think it's fine for a golf pro shop to sell a kid or woman an adult men's set of clubs because they can't hit the ball well enough to tell anyway. LOL

LOL I think you've gotten lost and wandered into an area you are unfamiliar with.


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## MrPillow (Apr 9, 2021)

What a fun way to get people excited and eager about a new sport - "Here, read this obscure book first, just take some rando's word that it's correct, and then be sure to spend hours on the internet sifting through pages of obtuse arguments and conflicting anonymous information. Good luck!"

🙃


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## rsarns (Sep 23, 2008)

DNez2001 said:


> one day Rick pulled out a set of unfletched ACE arrows. There were 3 arrows of every spine in the ACE line, each cut to different lengths. Each had a screw-in insert, and used screw-in points to adjust point weight. It was and still is a fantastic way to be able to determine an archer's needed spine in real time thru paper tuning.
> 
> I've asked him to will me those arrows . In the meantime, Easton should market a package like this to USA Archery Clubs to help their JOAD/AAP archers


Wolverines are always easily impressed…. 😂😂


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## woof156 (Apr 3, 2018)

nuts&bolts said:


> REAL coaches don't do a one liner and call it good. Yes, a shooter can learn about Olympic recurve, and barebow completely alone, by himself, going through all kinds of arrows, starting with the wrong spine arrows sold by the pro shop, and then, experimenting with all kinds of shafts, and point weights, and arrow wraps, and vanes, and weight systems for the point, learning the hard way (means expensive) for dynamic spine, etc.
> 
> A coach will save a new recurve shooter (olympic or barebow or compound) a lot of time.


I don't disagree but what if none are available then not all is lost the archer can start taking the time to investigate on his/her own and with a little effort learn an awful lot in the process.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

woof156 said:


> I don't disagree but what if none are available then not all is lost the archer can start taking the time to investigate on his/her own and with a little effort learn an awful lot in the process.


Yes, you can figure it out completely by yourself, if stubborn enough.
The purpose of a coach is to accelerate the learning process, make figuring out stuff a little easier. In these days of the internet, you don't HAVE to find coaching in person. Sure, working with folks over the internet is slower, less efficient than working with folks in person. Find a coach that will work with the student online. It's the 21rst century.

When you get to the advanced levels, static photo analysis and video frame by frame analysis is part of the process. Football players study film ALL the time. So, once you train the student how to take proper static photos, and proper framing for a video....this can be done over the internet.


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## FerrumVeritas (Oct 9, 2020)

I’m not debating the value of coaching, but I really don’t get why people are jumping to defend the idea that people that make and/or sell arrows should sell arrows that are wildly incorrect for the person buying them. That would be unacceptable in literally any other context (except probably pickup trucks).


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## woof156 (Apr 3, 2018)

m013690 said:


> Archery isn’t the only sport that requires such a precise fit for essential equipment, and other types of sports suppliers have figured it out. It’s remarkably similar to what Limbwalker suggested in the beginning.
> 
> Every single bike and running store I know has the same policy: “30-day fit guarantee. If it doesn’t work for you, bring it back for store credit, and we’ll try again.”
> 
> They’re experts, they want to market themselves as experts, so they stand behind their expertise.


My point was if those wonderful explicit resources are not practically available all is not lost-- do the leg work do the thinking it is not impossible to make progress on your own. If resources are available then avail yourself of them great.. Not sure I would want to pay a coach $ 30-50 an hour to tell me what spine arrow I needed before I was able to even group a pie plate bunch at 15yds.. a simple manufacturers arrow chart would have been cheaper and for that time point as useful.


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## Derek Cater (Aug 17, 2020)

In the UK, we mercifully have the Sale of Goods Act, which states that goods have to be fit for purpose. This means that if I specify my requirements and parameters and I am sold something that does not satisfy and match, the vendor has to refund or replace.

Sent from my Titan using Tapatalk


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

woof156 said:


> My point was if those wonderful explicit resources are not practically available all is not lost-- do the leg work do the thinking it is not impossible to make progress on your own. If resources are available then avail yourself of them great.. Not sure I would want to pay a coach $ 30-50 an hour to tell me what spine arrow I needed before I was able to even group a pie plate bunch at 15yds.. a simple manufacturers arrow chart would have been cheaper and for that time point as useful.


Not ALL coaches charge $30-$50 an hour. Some of us teach for FREE...nada, zilch, zippo.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

nuts&bolts said:


> Not ALL coaches charge $30-$50 an hour. Some of us teach for FREE...nada, zilch, zippo.


How hard would it be for a "pro" shop (and I use that term loosely in some cases) to have a qualified USArchery coach on speed dial or even just provide their email or phone number to the customer. Any L3 or L4 should be able to, off the top of their heads, recommend an arrow spine to a new barebow or recurve archer. I mean, if the pro shop is concerned AT ALL about their customer, this is literally a 5-minute call.


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## Stash (Jun 1, 2002)

I think that’s enough complaining...now, what can ACTUALLY be done to improve the situation?

Can we require that detailed information about selecting recurve arrows be included in the Official Archery Shop Owner’s Handbook?

Can we send a list of local qualified recurve coaches and their phone numbers to every shop in the country and demand that they call one before suggesting an arrow to a recurve shooter?

Can we organize protests in front of every arrow manufacturer’s head office (except Victory 😄) demanding they change their charts to what we say they should be? Who do we name to be on the CCC (Committee for Chart Change)?


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

limbwalker said:


> How hard would it be for a "pro" shop (and I use that term loosely in some cases) to have a qualified USArchery coach on speed dial or even just provide their email or phone number to the customer. Any L3 or L4 should be able to, off the top of their heads, recommend an arrow spine to a new barebow or recurve archer. I mean, if the pro shop is concerned AT ALL about their customer, this is literally a 5-minute call.


A GREAT idea. They can goto the USAA Coach Locator and find a L3 or L4 to have on speed dial. For all the "pro shops" in my area, only 1 pro shop has a focus on target recurve folks (actually sells quite a few target recurve risers and limbs). As far as I know, they do not have a relationship with any L3s or L4s.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Stash said:


> I think that’s enough complaining...now, what can ACTUALLY be done to improve the situation?
> 
> Can we require that detailed information about selecting recurve arrows be included in the Official Archery Shop Owner’s Handbook?
> 
> ...


First, you know better than to think four pages of complaining is "enough" here on AT. 

Second, I think we should expect more from our archery shops than we do now. And that was kind of the point I had in mind when I started this thread. What's wrong with asking a shop owner if they will buy back arrows if they aren't the right size? It doesn't hurt to ask. If they say no, then fine, but that that gives you an idea of who you're buying from.

I believe the solution to this problem is for the archers to expect more from the pro shops and hold them accountable when they are lazy or just don't care enough.


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## Seattlepop (Dec 8, 2003)

Wowzer - tough crowd here. I'm not a pro and definitely not an L3/L4, but I find arrow selection to be 50% charts, 50% software, and 50% trial and error.


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## Stash (Jun 1, 2002)

As someone with a fair bit of experience in the retail end of the archery business, I get what you’re saying, but in most cases it’s just not a viable option. Arrows are not a high margin item, and ones that have been cut and/or customized, and used enough to determine that they are incorrect, are not likely to have much resale value. There’s the safety issue to consider, in case of possible damaged shafts. It would be a huge financial hit, especially for a small shop, to buy back arrows.


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## Hikari (May 15, 2021)

khart1988 said:


> ... they can't outshoot the spine that they are sold.


Oh, sure I can. I pulled an arrow out of my quiver and said, go ahead, hit the target. It just fell to the ground. Apparently, you need the archer.

I actually get tired of the mentality comments like this show. What is wrong with getting a spine that matches the bow? Am I going to shoot the same with a good or bad match? No, if I have the wrong arrow, it will always have a less optimal outcome. It certainly will not help me in my development as I will always be fighting something I cannot control.

Is it so hard to expect someone that bills themselves as an expert to either a) performs like an expert or b) have the humility to help someone get in touch with someone that does have that knowledge.


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## 1/2 Bubble Off (Dec 29, 2016)

How close are the Black Eagle charts???






Arrow Sizing Chart


Black Eagle Arrow Sizing Chart



www.blackeaglearrows.com


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## Hikari (May 15, 2021)

Viper1 said:


> SCL -
> 
> Oh, if there were only a book that covered all of that stuff ....
> 
> Viper1 out.


Yes, but like trying to find a competent sales person, archery books are a mixed bag. Self publishing makes the offerings pretty dubious. Fortunately, those are easy to spot. There are few that come from publishing houses. Still, there are some that are worth reading. A lot however are just republishing the usual stuff you can find on the internet and so are not so useful.


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## TER (Jul 5, 2003)

Viper1 said:


> SCL -
> 
> Oh, if there were only a book that covered all of that stuff ....
> 
> Viper1 out.


Are you an ArcheryTalk sponsor?


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## Viper1 (Aug 21, 2003)

TER -

No I'm not, why do you ask?

Viper1 out.


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## farmerbob1 (Jan 26, 2017)

Every shop owner does not have an extra hour in their day to spend with a customer to test out every arrow in a bucket to find the right one. Then the customer expects the arrows to cost the same as they do online. Not how it works. An educated guess is just that. How many of you experienced archers bought a dozen arrows and they turned out to be too stiff or too weak? ALL OF YOU.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

farmerbob1 said:


> Every shop owner does not have an extra hour in their day to spend with a customer to test out every arrow in a bucket to find the right one. Then the customer expects the arrows to cost the same as they do online. Not how it works. An educated guess is just that. How many of you experienced archers bought a dozen arrows and they turned out to be too stiff or too weak? ALL OF YOU.


This "attitude" close enough is good enuff, for recurve customers, is why 100% of all of my recurve students
were sold the WRONG arrow spine (sold whatever was in stock) cuz the pro shop owner didn't have "TIME" to do it right. So, eventually this customer finds me, and I have to tell the parents, they have to purchase a second set of arrows..cuz the "shop owner" don't have time of day, extra time. I tell the student and the parents, go find a shop owner who DOES have the TIME, to do it right...and after I spend the time with the student, to get the arrow spine correct...the parents go purchase the "PROPER SPINE" arrows someplace else.

Oh yeah. Don't take an hour to find proper spine for a recurve customer.
Just fire a group of fletched arrows and fire ONE bareshaft. If the bareshaft don't group inside the middle of the fletched group, WRONG spine for that recurve customer.

Smack My Head.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

farmerbob1 said:


> Every shop owner does not have an extra hour in their day to spend with a customer to test out every arrow in a bucket to find the right one. Then the customer expects the arrows to cost the same as they do online. Not how it works. An educated guess is just that. How many of you experienced archers bought a dozen arrows and they turned out to be too stiff or too weak? ALL OF YOU.


LOL

Why even bother to have a "pro" shop then?


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## Hikari (May 15, 2021)

farmerbob1 said:


> Every shop owner does not have an extra hour in their day to spend with a customer to test out every arrow in a bucket to find the right one. Then the customer expects the arrows to cost the same as they do online. Not how it works. An educated guess is just that. How many of you experienced archers bought a dozen arrows and they turned out to be too stiff or too weak? ALL OF YOU.


But not all customers need that support. If you are in customer service, then you must take into account that your new customers, which might be returning customers after they lose all their arrows, might need more time for their first purchase. When you educate your customer, they not only trust you, they return to buy more arrows. And other things. Over time, they also become more expert and don't require as much time. 

Sure, Amazon and ebay have really cheap arrows. But I don't buy from them. I spend a bit more and buy from Lancaster. I would argue that the customer service that Lancaster provides pays off. They seem to be doing well, or maybe they simply pay the mortgage with Lancaster Classic entry fees, but I don't think so.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Hikari said:


> But not all customers need that support. If you are in customer service, then you must take into account that your new customers, which might be returning customers after they lose all their arrows, might need more time for their first purchase. When you educate your customer, they not only trust you, they return to buy more arrows. And other things. Over time, they also become more expert and don't require as much time.
> 
> Sure, Amazon and ebay have really cheap arrows. But I don't buy from them. I spend a bit more and buy from Lancaster. I would argue that the customer service that Lancaster provides pays off. They seem to be doing well, or maybe they simply pay the mortgage with Lancaster Classic entry fees, but I don't think so.


I started to mention Lancasters earlier, but didn't bother. Most local shops aren't Lancasters because they don't understand or care what customer service is.


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## tassie_devil (Aug 15, 2018)

farmerbob1 said:


> Every shop owner does not have an extra hour in their day to spend with a customer to test out every arrow in a bucket to find the right one. Then the customer expects the arrows to cost the same as they do online. Not how it works. An educated guess is just that. How many of you experienced archers bought a dozen arrows and they turned out to be too stiff or too weak? ALL OF YOU.


Unreal. I don't know any brick and mortar shops that compete with online pricing (although in Australia most are both) and am tired of shop owners (archery and otherwise) that ADD NO VALUE complaining about online competition. If you want people to make the effort to visit the shop there needs to be some value over online shopping.

Joining N&B with the head smacking...


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

tassie_devil said:


> Unreal. I don't know any brick and mortar shops that compete with online pricing (although in Australia most are both) and am tired of shop owners (archery and otherwise) that ADD NO VALUE complaining about online competition. If you want people to make the effort to visit the shop there needs to be some value over online shopping.
> 
> Joining N&B with the head smacking...


I think we have identified the problem now at least...


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## SLC_Recurve (Jun 11, 2021)

farmerbob1 said:


> Every shop owner does not have an extra hour in their day to spend with a customer to test out every arrow in a bucket to find the right one.


Shop Owners: "I can't take the time to provide good customer service and foster long-term relationships."
Also Shop Owners: "Why does everyone buy their stuff online?"


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## carlosii (Feb 25, 2007)

nuts&bolts said:


> A GREAT idea. They can goto the USAA Coach Locator and find a L3 or L4 to have on speed dial. For all the "pro shops" in my area, only 1 pro shop has a focus on target recurve folks (actually sells quite a few target recurve risers and limbs). As far as I know, they do not have a relationship with any L3s or L4s.


Haven't had much luck finding a coach on USAA web site. Maybe I'm not using the site correctly, but I don't think so.


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## BooneHammer (Aug 21, 2021)

Before I knew any better, I ended up buying some Eason FMJs that were bent.....learned a lot that day. Never buy aluminum arrows without spin testing them.


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## Viper1 (Aug 21, 2003)

farmerbob - 

Yeah, that's how it works in the real world, but it seems like the Fantasy Island bus just let out. 

Guys -

For a new shooter with a bow that calls for an 800 spine arrow, do you really think being sold 700 spine arrows is going to ruin his day? I'm sure some one some where was sold 300 spine arrows for a 20# bow, but let's be real, that's a stretch.

For an "experienced shooter", should he really be relying on a guy in a shop to tell him what arrows he needs?

And yeah, two guys with the exact same bow and similar draw lengths may not need the exact same arrows, how's that work???

Viper1 out.


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## Stash (Jun 1, 2002)

Viper1 said:


> I'm sure some one some where was sold 300 spine arrows for a 20# bow, but let's be real, that's a stretch.


Spend a day hanging around the archery department at Bass Pro or Cabelas, then tell me if you think that sort of thing is uncommon...😄


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## woof156 (Apr 3, 2018)

Viper1 said:


> SCL -
> 
> Oh, if there were only a book that covered all of that stuff ....
> 
> Viper1 out.


And if only people could and would read. Reading seems to be too hard and takes tooooo long and well just takes too much thinking. A lost art today apparently... now if someone can't tell me or I can find it on video it just is not worth my time. Start-- then jump to finish, the stuff in between is tooooo boring.


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## N00bie (May 28, 2020)

This is an interesting discussion. 

As a beginner on an archery course last year there didn't seem to be any consideration given to arrow spine. Selection appeared to be based on a) what was long enough to shoot safely and b) had three matching arrows. We only ever shot ends of three arrows.

When I started learning more about arrows I realised that the arrows I was given were way stiff - 1916 arrows on a 18# @28" bow if memory serves (I have a 27" (ish) draw length). Didn't stop me having fun, learning, and the arrows grouping when I was shooting well - not a tight group, but good enough for government work.

Having said that it's hard to argue with the premise that archery shops should be offering good advice. 

Like many archers I now have a nice selection of arrows, however I also now have 4 sets of limbs. The only arrows I don't use at the moment came with a second hand bow and are still too stiff, but were usable enough and grouped when I was on form - before I purchased new arrows. 

All of the arrows I've purchased new myself are a reasonably match - purchased following advice here at AT from Viper1.


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## N00bie (May 28, 2020)

As stated in my previous message, it's hard to argue with the premise that archery shops should be offering good advice.

Having said that, arrows several spines out will still shoot. If the technique is consistent they will still group. If the reference point (e.g. the sight/aim) is adjusted they will still hit where you want - hopefully - based on skill. 

As a beginner the bar is often low and it was never the arrows holding me back.


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## Viper1 (Aug 21, 2003)

Woof and N00bie - 

Thank you, on all counts.

Viper1 out.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

N00bie said:


> As stated in my previous message, it's hard to argue with the premise that archery shops should be offering good advice.
> 
> Having said that, arrows several spines out will still shoot.* If the technique is consistent* they will still group. If the reference point (e.g. the sight/aim) is adjusted they will still hit where you want - hopefully - based on skill.
> 
> As a beginner the bar is often low and it was never the arrows holding me back.


One could argue that with beginner and intermediate archers, finding the correct arrow spine is even more important then.

This isn't about what a new or beginning archer "needs" to get started in the sport or to have fun. It's about people in the industry who bill themselves as "pros" giving a damn about their customers. From what I've seen the past 25 years, "pro" shops suffer from a lack of genuine knowledge of the sport of archery beyond "here's what you need to kill something." It didn't used to be that way.


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## psnguyen (Jun 15, 2018)

As a barebow shooter, when I first got my Samick Sage clone at 30# @ 28" (most likely 25# OTF at my beginning form), I went to the nearby pro shop, and they hooked me up with Beaman ICS Hunter arrows, 400 spine, cut to my "draw length" at the time. After a while and a lot of learning, I understood that the nock end waving bye to me as it left the bow wasn't normal


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## psnguyen (Jun 15, 2018)

Stash said:


> I spent 5 years running the archery department of a store that was part of a large chain of outdoor hunting/fishing retail establishments (which shall go nameless 😄). At the time we carried a small selection of lightweight recurves, but had no arrows lower than .500 spine. I had a very difficult time convincing customers interested in the recurves not to buy any of our arrows, and actually got reprimanded on more than one occasion by the hunting department manager for it. Ironically, he was an experienced bowhunter who knew what the problem was, but $$$ was clearly more important.


Nordstrom's?


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## Stash (Jun 1, 2002)

psnguyen said:


> Nordstrom's?


Well, definitely not Abercrombie & Fitch...


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## Z-MAN (Jan 25, 2004)

Arrow manufacturers share some of the blame to the problem. Sample arrow kits with various spine size shafts made available for sale to consumers would help any archer purchase the right size arrows for their needs. I could never understand why one could not buy 2 or 3 different size ACE ,x10, etc. shafts instead of having to purchase a dozen arrows only.

For most small archery shops who hate to see a sale walk out the door and the customer who wants it now, instant sales and gradification come at a price.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Z-MAN said:


> Arrow manufacturers share some of the blame to the problem. Sample arrow kits with various spine size shafts made available for sale to consumers would help any archer purchase the right size arrows for their needs. I could never understand why one could not buy 2 or 3 different size ACE ,x10, etc. shafts instead of having to purchase a dozen arrows only.
> 
> For most small archery shops who hate to see a sale walk out the door and the customer who wants it now, instant sales and gradification come at a price.


There are a few shops who will let you buy sample kits, even of ACE's or the like, but they are few and far between.


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## khart1988 (May 6, 2012)

Hikari said:


> Oh, sure I can. I pulled an arrow out of my quiver and said, go ahead, hit the target. It just fell to the ground. Apparently, you need the archer.
> 
> I actually get tired of the mentality comments like this show. What is wrong with getting a spine that matches the bow? Am I going to shoot the same with a good or bad match? No, if I have the wrong arrow, it will always have a less optimal outcome. It certainly will not help me in my development as I will always be fighting something I cannot control.
> 
> Is it so hard to expect someone that bills themselves as an expert to either a) performs like an expert or b) have the humility to help someone get in touch with someone that does have that knowledge.


I agree with everything you said, it's invaluable when experts in a discipline to go out of their way to help newcomers. And if you are a newcomer who is committed to said discipline and actively seeks out that level of knowledge, you'll definitely hit a point in your progression where you'll start to outperform your gear...especially if it's suboptimal.

Also, you are correct that if you drop an arrow...it will fall on the ground...

No one ever said there's anything wrong with getting the correct arrow for the bow, where did you read that? Obviously that can only help you. But if you can't consistently group inside a dinner plate at 10 yards, I'm only saying you have much more important things to work on and worry about than a stiff arrow.


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## khart1988 (May 6, 2012)

limbwalker said:


> So using my analogy above, I suppose you think it's fine for a golf pro shop to sell a kid or woman an adult men's set of clubs because they can't hit the ball well enough to tell anyway. LOL
> 
> LOL I think you've gotten lost and wandered into an area you are unfamiliar with.


No, but I think you have. If someone physically cannot hold a gold club of the correct length and have it properly clear the ground, it's readily obvious that they cannot use it. That's a simple thing to determine for any new golfer across any brand on earth with a tape measure.

If someone walks in to buy a beginner set of arrows and the box has an arrow chart on it is only good for compound...AND maybe the manufacturer fudges to the side of stiff as an added safety measure, AND the person in the shop is only familiar with compound customers, they're going to, unbeknownst to them, sell the wrong arrows.

Will the archer eventually outshoot those arrows? Likely, if they take the sport of target archery seriously, seek out a trainer or mentor, and practice regularly. 

When they become competitive, will perfect arrows make or break their standings? Definitely. But at that point, they will have someone teach them along the way that they don't know that they don't know. If it requires buying some new arrows to take them to the next level once they get their form, release, and draw length consistent and perfected, they can do that.

Do I expect the shop to have to buy back a banged up, used set of arrows at that point because someone behind the counter guessed wrong in a discipline they were not familiar with? Certainly not. And beginning archers without an expert behind them to tell them which arrow to buy will generally buy the cheapest arrows they can anyway. It's not like they lost their life savings getting their first half dozen, but it did give them something to fling at a target and either let them fall in love with archery or show that it's really not for them.

Not to mention they've probably already broken a few and need to purchase new ones anyway. Arrows are consumable. You can always repurpose old arrows anyway. If you need to blind-bale, bang up your old crappy arrows at 5 feet, not your fancy perfect arrows. 

My wife has a short 20 lbs recurve that I have to short draw it because it stacks so bad at my draw length that I'm afraid I'll damage the limbs. I break it out every now and then and shoot with it for a week in a row, nothing serious. I fletched up some arrows that are definitely not the correct spine, just what I had on-hand. I can get relatively consistent with it in the backyard, enough to where I'm happy. Shooting a recurve is awesome, it's just not that fun to shoot HER bow. But I can confidently say that the arrow spine is NOT hampering me in any way.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

limbwalker said:


> There are a few shops who will let you buy sample kits, even of ACE's or the like, but they are few and far between.


EVERY recurve student of mine, who purchased their FIRST set of arrows from a pro shop,
EVERY time, I have had to tell the parents...sorry, but you (parents) will need to purchase a 2nd set of arrows
at the CORRECT spine, cuz they (parents) were sold a set of "beginner" arrows that were 1 or 2 spine ratings too stiff.

So, how hard is it for a "PRO shop" to have several recurve arrows, fletched up, at different spine ratings
and several matching length bareshafts, so the NEWBIE recurve shooter can shoot a group of fletched arrows and a bareshaft, to see if the bareshaft hits INSIDE the fletched group, whatever size the fletched group is? Even for a newbie.

Takes less than 5 minutes to figure if NONE of the arrows in stock at the "PRO" shop, are light enough spine rating for the newbie recurve shooter, with the 20# limbs, and the 24-inch draw length...or 25-inch draw length (yes, talking youth recurve folks). So, note to PRO shops. STop selling 400 spine and 500 spine arrows to youth recurve archers, PLEASE.


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## 40n105w! (Dec 29, 2016)

Just for yucks I went to the Black Eagle chart. HA! Not even close. They suggested 600's! My wife and I shoot the same bow although her draw is a little longer than mine, so she shoots 1000's. I shoot 1100s. The VICTORY chart got us exactly right!!! Just thought I'd pass that on. Not saying anything about Black Eagle's arrows but their chart is lacking.

I'm guessing they assume "traditional" shooters are all hunters and have to contend with broadheads going every which way. Someone needs to tell them that's not the case with all of us - C


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

khart1988 said:


> No, but I think you have. If someone physically cannot hold a gold club of the correct length and have it properly clear the ground, it's readily obvious that they cannot use it. That's a simple thing to determine for any new golfer across any brand on earth with a tape measure.
> 
> If someone walks in to buy a beginner set of arrows and the box has an arrow chart on it is only good for compound...AND maybe the manufacturer fudges to the side of stiff as an added safety measure, AND the person in the shop is only familiar with compound customers, they're going to, unbeknownst to them, sell the wrong arrows.
> 
> ...


Again, you are in unfamiliar territory but you just don't see that yet.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

40n105w! said:


> Just for yucks I went to the Black Eagle chart. HA! Not even close. They suggested 600's! My wife and I shoot the same bow although her draw is a little longer than mine, so she shoots 1000's. I shoot 1100s. The VICTORY chart got us exactly right!!! Just thought I'd pass that on. Not saying anything about Black Eagle's arrows but their chart is lacking.
> 
> I'm guessing they assume "traditional" shooters are all hunters and have to contend with broadheads going every which way. Someone needs to tell them that's not the case with all of us - C


Actually, incorrectly spined arrows is exactly the reason hunter's broadhead-tipped arrows go "every which way." Sadly, most of them don't understand that either. Hence the invention of mechanical broadheads. Mechanicals were created to cover up the fact that pro shop owners didn't know how or didn't want to bother actually tuning someone's hunting bow.


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## SHPoet (Nov 13, 2009)

So, I'm a shop rat. Have been for a VERY long time. Off and on for over 30 years. Also retired out the tech industry.

I shoot everything in the world but Olympic is my favorite followed by competition barebow.

This is a DARK hole. With barebow you can play with point weight for most arrows and get pretty close. I always start out with screw in points and, sometimes, move to glue in points after I get spine worked out. With an Olympic bow you are kinda stuck at that 10-15gr "cut point". I "got burned" last year over a set of 570 spine ProComp arrows. My 600 spine Carbon One arrows and an older set of CE 600 spine shot perfectly out of my Oly setup. I added 20gr to the point weight and the ProComps SHOULD have worked. WRONG!!!

The good thing is that most of our recurve sales are to noobs and they buy the Galaxy setups. We carry prebuilt arrows from PSE and Victory in 800-1000 spine and, most times, we can fit a new shooter with those.


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## lcaillo (Jan 5, 2014)

I can agree that archery shops need to improve in customer service and professionalism. I have tried to deal with local shops when I can but most don’t have a clue even about non OR stuff. I have to disagree that they should be made to buy bad anything. Just the libertarian in me that abhors government trying to solve problems. Now the manufacturers could help with kits and samples along with better training and charts. But ultimately to get better dealers consumers need to demand more. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## tassie_devil (Aug 15, 2018)

khart1988 said:


> because someone behind the counter guessed wrong in a discipline they were not familiar with


For brevity, this is the bit we're all annoyed about. The beginner doesn't know, if the person behind the counter doesn't know they should say so.

If the beginner buys KNOWING it's a GUESS from someone barely more informed than they are, then it's on them. Otherwise, the shop should be ashamed of themselves.


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## dnk512 (Sep 7, 2013)

Could we compile a database with people's real inputs like film-photographers have done here:





__





Massive Dev Chart Film Development, Film Developing Database







www.digitaltruth.com





Yes, we will need both the infrastructure to support the info, and the set of parameters to report on. But this forum is knowledgable, and (I hope) resourceful to really help on the topic of arrow selection.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

lcaillo said:


> I can agree that archery shops need to improve in customer service and professionalism. I have tried to deal with local shops when I can but most don’t have a clue even about non OR stuff. I have to disagree that they should be made to buy bad anything. Just the libertarian in me that abhors government trying to solve problems. Now the manufacturers could help with kits and samples along with better training and charts. But ultimately to get better dealers consumers need to demand more.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Who said anything about government. Your last sentence is what I meant. The customer should demand more. The shops should know more, period.


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## sjanderson117 (Nov 14, 2019)

Someone help me. What is “OR” mean?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

sjanderson117 said:


> Someone help me. What is “OR” mean?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Olympic style Recurve.


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## Viper1 (Aug 21, 2003)

Guys -

Sorry, but this is becoming all too common. 
Somebody does a rant thread and the crap piles on, usually with both "sides" not listening to what the other is saying.
Welcome to the Internet.
I have a shock for you,* nothing is going to change.*

Happily, most of the Pro Shops I've dealt with were pretty decent about arrow spines, and if the were off, it was by one number or so. Just lucky I guess. And if you're relying on a warehouse like Bass, Cabalas, or Dicks, you'd better know exactly what you're looking for. Yeah, it's on you.

Heck, even if I'm going to a new restaurant, I'm going to check the menu and reviews before I walk in the door.

Viper1 out.


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## sjanderson117 (Nov 14, 2019)

limbwalker said:


> Olympic style Recurve.


About 5 min after I posted, I realized what it was. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## FerrumVeritas (Oct 9, 2020)

The big box stores don't carry anything like what a recurve or barebow shooter wants/needs, but they will at least take returns if they sell you the wrong thing.


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## TER (Jul 5, 2003)

Sometimes experienced people who have done a hobby for 100 years forget how much there is to learn to go from rank beginner to beginner who is starting to get the hang of it. That's why the best coaches, both in sport and work, have a decent level of empathy. They are empathetic enough to remember what it's like to start off knowing nothing about the sport or job; they can see things from another persons perspective. There's a lot to learn, and that's why every other sport has true Pro Shops that know how to tailor help for every experience level. There are very few true archery Pro Shops in North America. 
I've been an archer for 40 years and "Pro Shops" sticking every beginner with .500 spine and stiffer arrows is one of the biggest, dumbest problems this sport has in the USA and Canada (I've lived in a few different cities in Canada and the USA.) The first thing we do to people trying to get into archery is stick them with way too stiff arrows, wasting their time and money. We piss off interested beginners right off the bat and grumble about the slow growth of archery. No other sport does this to beginners. Are archery retailers the most incompetent, short sighted retailers in sports? Looks that way. The first step toward improvement is recognizing there is a problem and calling it out. Change is always happening, might as well try to make it positive.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

TER said:


> Sometimes experienced people who have done a hobby for 100 years forget how much there is to learn to go from rank beginner to beginner who is starting to get the hang of it. That's why the best coaches, both in sport and work, have a decent level of empathy. They are empathetic enough to remember what it's like to start off knowing nothing about the sport or job; they can see things from another persons perspective. There's a lot to learn, and that's why every other sport has true Pro Shops that know how to tailor help for every experience level. There are very few true archery Pro Shops in North America.
> I've been an archer for 40 years and "Pro Shops" sticking every beginner with .500 spine and stiffer arrows is one of the biggest, dumbest problems this sport has in the USA and Canada (I've lived in a few different cities in Canada and the USA.) The first thing we do to people trying to get into archery is stick them with way too stiff arrows, wasting their time and money. We piss off interested beginners right off the bat and grumble about the slow growth of archery. No other sport does this to beginners. Are archery retailers the most incompetent, short sighted retailers in sports? Looks that way. The first step toward improvement is recognizing there is a problem and calling it out. Change is always happening, might as well try to make it positive.


#micdrop


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## "TheBlindArcher" (Jan 27, 2015)

khart1988 said:


> "...Also, you are correct that if you drop an arrow...it will fall on the ground... ..."
> 
> .



PFFT... No joke once dropped an arrow out of my quiver and it never hit the ground; ended up caught between my boot and ankle of my prosthetic leg, so it's not a given because there are those of us archers who couldn't hit the ground if they dropped an arrow.


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## SLC_Recurve (Jun 11, 2021)

TER said:


> I've been an archer for 40 years and "Pro Shops" sticking every beginner with .500 spine and stiffer arrows is one of the biggest, dumbest problems this sport has in the USA and Canada (I've lived in a few different cities in Canada and the USA.) The first thing we do to people trying to get into archery is stick them with way too stiff arrows, wasting their time and money. We piss off interested beginners right off the bat and grumble about the slow growth of archery. No other sport does this to beginners. Are archery retailers the most incompetent, short sighted retailers in sports? Looks that way. The first step toward improvement is recognizing there is a problem and calling it out. Change is always happening, might as well try to make it positive.


Very well put. This situation can be improved. However, it has to start with the arrow manufacturers. I hope some people at Easton, Black Eagle, Victory, etc see this. However, I'm more looking at Easton here who has the most weight to make changes for the better:


To become an authorized dealer, you MUST have someone on staff who has taken a class (provided by the manufacturer) educating them on the basic mechanics of arrows.
Better yet, it also covers the product lineup. That can be just as confusing as spine.
The responsible individual MUST pass a written test on this.
This could be accomplished in 2-4 hours for the initial class.
With the hyper accelerated adoption of digital meeting solutions due to COVID, this is now easier than ever. Most anyone now has some kind of setup to attend a Zoom class.

When you become an authorized dealer, the manufacturer provides a fitting kit. One each for compound and recurve. And maybe one each, compound/recurve youth.
This kit will contain basic aluminum arrows in the most common spines. 4 each.
The kit will come with a part number sheet so the dealer can order replacements and keep the kit complete.

The manufacturer provides a database to authorized dealers where they can document what a shooter got fitted with and all the associated critical information.
The authorized dealer will then have more than one avenue to make the process as quick and painless as possible. They plug the information in, and it returns what spines worked across a sample set. A scatter chart of some kind could be invaluable in getting it close or right the first time. Archer is brand new and can't group? No problem, let's see what the scatter chart says and we'll go with that. Then they can grow into the set and get good feedback as they figure their form out. Happy shooter/parents = long-term customers.
It also provides a history set. If the shooter opts in, they can have their name or some unique identifier attached. That way, if they find themselves needing a new set of arrows from a dealer they have never been to before, it can be looked up.

Bonus - Manufacturer revamps their spine calculator based on database feedback. At the very least, include point weight in the new calculator.
Another Bonus - a tier system of authorized dealers. Many industries do this.
The entry-level tier has the most basic services where the staff has access to the database and can cut/fletch arrows. Maybe they don't have the shooting range at this level.
The top tier has staff who are experts. They have taken several classes. They have been in business for at least 4 years. They have a range. Brady Ellison himself would feel comfortable coming in and getting fitted with X10s at this top tier dealer.

Dealers - I can understand it gets frustrating if you are busy and a newbie comes in needing arrows and they will suck up 30-60+ minutes of your time. Pull an Apple and have them schedule an appointment for personalized service. Then you can build that schedule around the staff member who has been through the training.
The dealer can opt to charge a separate fee for the fitting service or not.
The above would undoubtedly help brick and mortar businesses gain and retain customers. We remove a layer of frustration for new shooters. Parents will rejoice when the new set of arrows they just bought can be used for a year or more. The birds sing, arrows fly, archery grows, Team USA gains members and we gain depth in our shooting ranks.


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## Stash (Jun 1, 2002)

Right.

And the authorized dealer would have to take the same class from Easton, Gold Tip, Carbon Express, Victory, Black Eagle, Skylon, etc., in order to qualify? What about dealers who just get their arrows from wholesalers and aren’t “authorized”? And how would the authorized dealers convince customers that being “authorized” is of any benefit to them?

Any how about bows? Would a dealer have to take courses to be “authorized” to sell Hoyt, PSE, Mathews, Win, Galaxy, Gillo, Spigarelli, Elite, Uukha, etc?

An organizational nightmare.


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## SLC_Recurve (Jun 11, 2021)

Stash said:


> Right.
> 
> And the authorized dealer would have to take the same class from Easton, Gold Tip, Carbon Express, Victory, Black Eagle, Skylon, etc., in order to qualify? What about dealers who just get their arrows from wholesalers and aren’t “authorized”? And how would the authorized dealers convince customers that being “authorized” is of any benefit to them?
> 
> ...


This is the kind of reply I was expecting. All kinds of reasons on why not. No suggestions on how to make it work or an alternative approach.

Let's just leave it the way it is then, not make anything better and just stay with the status quo because that's where we are comfortable.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

SLC_Recurve said:


> This is the kind of reply I was expecting. All kinds of reasons on why not. No suggestions on how to make it work or an alternative approach.
> 
> Let's just leave it the way it is then, not make anything better and just stay with the status quo because that's where we are comfortable.


I understand what you're suggesting, and it's done in other areas, but why would the manufacturers care? They sell more arrows when the pro shops get it wrong.


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## Stash (Jun 1, 2002)

Probably there are no suggestions on how to improve the situation because there ARE no practical ways to improve it.

The problem has been going on since bows and arrows were invented. Do you think that pre-historic hunters, Mongol horse soldiers, English longbowmen all shot perfectly spined arrows, and it’s only been the last few years that people are being given too-stiff arrows?

The only “solution” is for archery dealers to face consequences of poor service through word-of-mouth feedback and online reviews and such.

But it remains that a very large percentage of beginner recurve archers will never even know that their equipment is substandard unless they come across another archer who tells and shows them differently.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

I thought more about this and it seems archery shops had better knowledge across the board before on line merchants appeared. Also before the accessory market exploded. Not sure how to get that back though.


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## SLC_Recurve (Jun 11, 2021)

limbwalker said:


> I understand what you're suggesting, and it's done in other areas, but why would the manufacturers care? They sell more arrows when the pro shops get it wrong.


So in one case, they sell an extra set of arrows to a beginner who has to buy a new set in a few weeks or months. In another case, the archer gets frustrated and quits. In another case, mom and dad can't afford another set. The archer quits. It's not a good long-term strategy to willfully sell a set of ill-fitted gear.

As for Stash's can't-do points, the other manufacturers have a reciprocity policy. Took the Easton class on the mechanics? Hey, that's fine. Just take a course from us on our specific products.

There are a million solutions if you have the mindset that you ARE going to get from point A to B.


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## SLC_Recurve (Jun 11, 2021)

Stash said:


> Probably there are no suggestions on how to improve the situation because there ARE no practical ways to improve it.


Bullshit.


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## Rick McKinney (Mar 4, 2008)

Although I can sympathize with your frustrations about archery shops being experts in a field that gives them less than 1% of their income, I also fully understand the shop owner not wanting to take the time to deal with such a thing. At least 99% of the archery shops in the US are bowhunter oriented. That is where they make their living, not in target archery. That's why Lancaster has become THE place for target archery equipment, since archery stores do not carry much if any target archery goods. I really don't believe that the US can have two target archery distributors because because there is not enough money to support more than one. And if they do, it is more compound than recurve. Most shop owners care, but cannot take the time to learn something that will not give them much of a return. 

As for the arrow manufacturers. They go on the basis on the majority of archers and they choose to be a bit stiff for liability reasons. Get real people, the US is the most litigious country in the world and to be on the safe side most charts will be a bit stiff to cover their ***. As a new archer, the spine of an arrow is not so critical. The big issue would be to make sure they use feathers for clearance purposes, a sturdy arrow rest ( I have even used whisker biscuits on recurves). Shoot a super stiff arrow and a super weak arrow out of the hooter shooter and you will see that shafts will group, no matter what. 

The store I coach at is 99.9% bowhunting, and yet we now have 50+ kids shooting recurve JOAD virtually every Saturday morning at their store. I set them up with 1000 spined full length carbon arrows and go from there. Is it perfect? No, but spending time on equipment is the biggest waste of time for a beginner/instructor. Viper has made good suggestions by saying using aluminum arrows, but I have chosen a simple solution to cover the majority of kids and even some adults. I worked at my parents archery shop for 10 years and the one thing I learned is that bowhunters spend money and target archers, on average, are cheap. Most look online for a better deal than the shop offers and expect the same service as one who buys from the shop. Many target archers ask lots of questions from the shop owners and then buy somewhere else. A huge waste of the shop's time. So there you have it in a nut shell....oh and all IMHO....


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## Stash (Jun 1, 2002)

SLC_Recurve said:


> As for Stash's can't-do points, the other manufacturers have a reciprocity policy. Took the Easton class on the mechanics? Hey, that's fine. Just take a course from us on our specific products.


I can see it now.

“Hey, Easton: I just took the Black Eagle course. When can you send me my free Easton “fitting kit” with X10s, ACEs, X7s, 6mm FMJs, 5mm FMJs, 4mm FMJs, 5mm Axis, 4mm Axis........”

“Hey, Victory: I just took the Black Eagle course. When can you send me my free Victory “fitting kit” with VAP..........?”

“Hey, Carbon Express...”

“Hey, Gold Tip...”


Bullshit? Note I said there are no PRACTICAL ways.


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## Stash (Jun 1, 2002)

Stash said:


> The problem has been going on since bows and arrows were invented. Do you think that pre-historic hunters, Mongol horse soldiers, English longbowmen all shot perfectly spined arrows, and it’s only been the last few years that people are being given too-stiff arrows?


Just amusing myself with imagining a situation...getting ready for the Battle of Agincourt, the fletchers are distributing sheaves of arrows to the longbowmen.... “Beg pardon, my regular longbow broke and I’m using my backup for the battle today, and it’s only 85#. Got any weaker spine arrows? These are too stiff and I think they’re going to hit a bit left. “


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## SLC_Recurve (Jun 11, 2021)

Rick McKinney said:


> Although I can sympathize with your frustrations about archery shops being experts in a field that gives them less than 1% of their income,


I appreciate you taking the time to chime in Rick. You have good points, but I can't help but wonder if maybe the low income on arrow sales is due to the factors discussed in this thread. Overcoming the market being 99.9% bowhunting is definitely a challenge for the ORs.



Stash said:


> I can see it now.
> 
> “Hey, Easton: I just took the Black Eagle course. When can you send me my Easton free “fitting kit” with X10s, ACEs, X7s, 6mm FMJs, 5mm FMJs, 4mm FMJs, 5mm Axis, 4mm Axis........”


Try re-reading my post.

This kit will contain basic aluminum arrows in the most common spines. 4 each.
Yeah, so this kit gets you in the neighborhood for whatever you're going for. I never said anything about it containing arrows from the entire lineup. That kit could be used regardless of the brand you sell assuming spines are measured in a standard way across the industry. It could just be sold as a generic fitting kit.



Stash said:


> Bullshit? Note I said there are no PRACTICAL ways.


If you think you can't, then you won't.


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## SLC_Recurve (Jun 11, 2021)

Stash said:


> Just amusing myself with imagining a situation...getting ready for the Battle of Agincourt, the fletchers are distributing sheaves of arrows to the longbowmen.... “Beg pardon, my regular longbow broke and I’m using my backup for the battle today, and it’s only 85#. Got any weaker spine arrows? These are too stiff and I think they’re going to hit a bit left. “


If only we were talking about medieval combat archery instead of modern target archery.


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## Stash (Jun 1, 2002)

Since Easton is the only aluminum arrow supplier, why should they foot the bill for dealers of other manufacturers’ products?

Viper1’s suggestion in the other thread is more than enough, if you’re talking about aluminum arrows. Just a matter of sending it to every dealer in the world.

Yes, in this case I think we can’t. So we won’t.


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## Stash (Jun 1, 2002)

SLC_Recurve said:


> If only we were talking about medieval combat archery instead of modern target archery.


Arguably, accuracy in combat archery would have been a bit more critical than recreational target shooting...Not killing a charging knight would be a worse thing than shooting a 7 at 9 o’clock with your nock right.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

I guess I don't think it should take someone who makes their living in archery, that long to find a recurve arrow chart. They used to have them on their countertops for reference.


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## Stash (Jun 1, 2002)

Anyone remember the old Easton chart from the ‘70s, that graphically showed a range of suggested bow weights for each shaft and length? They should bring that back.


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## SLC_Recurve (Jun 11, 2021)

Stash said:


> Yes, in this case I think we can’t. So we won’t.


Fine, you win. I'm done trying to make suggestions on improving a situation that has dealers frequently sending 10 year olds out the door with 500 spine arrows.

Keep it the way it is then, because this is obviously a task that is impossible and not worth trying to fix.


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## Viper1 (Aug 21, 2003)

Rick -

When I was teaching HS archery classes, I started measuring draw lengths and tailoring bow and arrow lengths to the student. After a while, 90% of the kids were best served by a 20# bow (various lengths) and 1516s. I made that the general go to set up. It worked. The typical exceptions were kids with very long or very short draw lengths.

I wasn't sure we were still talking about arrows...
Thanks again for being the voice of reason.

Stash - 

Ah, that's where I get my information from. IIRC, things got flaky after 1983 +/-.

Viper1 out.


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## Boomer2094 (Aug 12, 2016)

The problem is, we can post all we want, vent all we want, suggest all we want... ultimately it is up to the owner/worker of each of the archery shops to solve the problem of pushing/selling new recurve shooters arrows that is not of optimum spine. And Rick has a good point about recurve account for less than 1% of the business which means less motivation for each store owner/worker to become knowledgeable of how determine which spine is "right" for each new recurve shooter.



Stash said:


> Anyone remember the old Easton chart from the ‘70s, that graphically showed a range of suggested bow weights for each shaft and length? They should bring that back.
> View attachment 7460660


I think Stash is onto something here... A handy reference guide that each arrow manufacturer can publish that can be purchased/downloaded by each store for nominal amount of money or free, so they can reference it when the new recurve shooters shows up at their store.

I know for the shop I shoot for, we have arrow spine charts pasted on the wall next to the arrow rack so staff/customer can reference it right there.


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## Stash (Jun 1, 2002)

Viper:

Be nice to find that chart online somewhere on line. AllI could find was the pic of the cover.

I still have one (in pretty poor shape), date is 1981.




















My own club has a lot of instructional bows in the 18-24# range, but most of our new arrows are 30” 1916s. I’ve been keeping busy repairing the assortment of random smaller aluminum arrows and keeping them in functional sets of 3 for the classes. But these are pretty old - some are even 50+ year old 24SRTX shafts. I finally convinced our club executive to spring for some new ones and shortly we’re going to be getting a couple dozen each 1000 (29”) and 1400 (27”) spine inexpensive carbons.


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## Rick McKinney (Mar 4, 2008)

Viper, A lot of dealers do not buy any aluminum arrows anymore. They are carbon exclusive which surprised me in one way (old school thinking here), but in another, it makes sense due to carbon is so popular and after all, there is only one aluminum arrow company. and they are not the friendliest and never have been. There are so many choices for the dealer to buy from and they find an arrow company that gives them the most bang for their buck and they stay with them. If a customer comes in to order another type of arrow, they just order it from their distributor, such as Lancaster, Kinsey's, etc. That normally doesn't take long to get in and they don't have to stock it. The same goes for target equipment. Chances are a dealer will have at least one arrow chart and probably 2. However, it is easy to read in the Lancaster catalog or Kinsey's. It depends on the time they have with a customer. 

SLC_recurve, let's turn this around and say that if there are enough people who come into the shop and ask for the product, the dealer will start handling it. After all, they cannot keep an inventory that collects dust. Bowhunting equipment is expensive, but simple. Need a bow, bow quiver, sight, peep, arrow rest, release, arrows, broadheads. Thats about it. The new bowhunter comes into a store and the hardest thing he/she has to do is determine is draw length (2 minutes) and bow poundage (most bows offer a span of 50+ pounds with a minor adjustment and a draw length adjustment of 20+ inches with a similar adjustment - easy peasy). There are normally two main spines to sell (400 and 300). Yes, there are several spines but most fit into this area. Thus, it is simple and easy to help the bowhunter get started. 

A recurve target archer takes at least 5 times as long to help set up and then you still don't know if they will buy. There are 37 aluminum arrow sizes, not counting types of aluminum and at least 17 carbon sizes not including types and sizes. This is a no brainer for one who wants to keep their doors open. Trying to figure out the correct setup for each beginner is beyond reason. Go with that old 80/20 rule.


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## FerrumVeritas (Oct 9, 2020)

But then they should say “I can’t help you,” or “I don’t carry that,” or “Here’s the number of a coach to help you get started. Work with them, and when they help you figure out what you need, I’ll order it in for you.”


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## Stash (Jun 1, 2002)

FerrumVeritas said:


> But then they should say “I can’t help you,” or “I don’t carry that,” or “Here’s the number of a coach to help you get started. Work with them, and when they help you figure out what you need, I’ll order it in for you.”


What color is the sky in your world? 😄


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

FerrumVeritas said:


> But then they should say “I can’t help you,” or “I don’t carry that,” or “Here’s the number of a coach to help you get started. Work with them, and when they help you figure out what you need, I’ll order it in for you.”


So, here is how it REALLY works. Parents come into Pro shop. Parents say I want to buy a bow and arrows.
K.

Here u go. $100 Olympic riser, and a set of 500 spine carbon arrows. These arrows are SUPER durable and will be perfect for your child. Then, they send them out the door. Then, the parents goto a local group lesson for recurve.
"instructor" says you need a bowstring, you need an arrow rest. Come back when you have all your gear. So, parents order a dacron bowstring online. They order the $2 Hoyt Super Rest, cuz it's cheap. GREAT. All set now.

So, parents pay through the nose for weekly lessons for 6 months. The "instructor" just collects money, and teaches the student ZERO, nada, zilch. Groups are horrible, cuz well, 20# limbs and 500 spine arrows. So, parents go ONLINE and find ArcheryTalk. They ask questions. Now they find a "archery coach".

Coach says to parents. I apologize. But, you will need to buy a new set of arrows, more like 900 spine.
Coach loans a Hoyt Gold Medalist to the parents and the student, as well as loans them his personal Beiter plunger.
Coach builds a PROPER recurve string, that fits the Victory 900 spine arrow nocks. Coach teaches student how to TUNE a recurve. Student wins State Outdoor Championship, 3 years later, as a cadet barebow recurve shooter.

Sooo, as long as the attitude that NEWBIE recurve shooters can shoot any ole spine....it's GOOD enuff,
we will not EVER....develop champion shooters.


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## Rick McKinney (Mar 4, 2008)

Viper....I'm getting a headache...(not from you).


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

FerrumVeritas said:


> But then they should say “I can’t help you,” or “I don’t carry that,” or “Here’s the number of a coach to help you get started. Work with them, and when they help you figure out what you need, I’ll order it in for you.”


The lucky ones (newbie recurve shooters) will find an archery coach, who HAS tubes and tubes of all kinds of arrows (yes, aluminum mostly) so we can empirically figure out what spine rating, what field point weight will work. Makes dynamic spine testing easier.

Easton 1716 is the smallest diameter aluminum arrow that accepts an insert.
880 spine and 29-inches long. Will be just fine (length wise) for MOST youth recurve students, except or the larger high school football players. The smaller diameter (weaker spine) aluminum arrows will not accept an insert, so the coach will need to purchase sets of 3 Easton aluminum arrows, in the weaker spine ratings. Fortunately, field points can go from 100 grains to 125 grains to 150 grains and heavier. There IS a way to figure out recurve spine, for a newbie recurve student.

ONLY a coach is gonna go thru this effort.


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## Bowfreak (Jul 23, 2002)

limbwalker said:


> I understand what you're suggesting, and it's done in other areas, but why would the manufacturers care? They sell more arrows when the pro shops get it wrong.


I will bet you about anything you want there are more people buying online or straight from the mfg getting the wrong arrows than through actually walking into a shop.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Bowfreak said:


> I will bet you about anything you want there are more people buying online or straight from the mfg getting the wrong arrows than through actually walking into a shop.


Very well could be true. But the pro shop owners are supposed to be professionals.


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## Hikari (May 15, 2021)

Actually, given the really large salary sales people pull in, you would think it would attract those have a great deal of technical knowledge. And dealing with people day in and day out would just be the icing on the cake.

I really don't fault the sales staff.


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## Hikari (May 15, 2021)

But look on the bright side, a stiff arrow is a perfect hedge for the future. You might get there eventually...


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## TER (Jul 5, 2003)

Hikari said:


> Actually, given the really large salary sales people pull in, you would think it would attract those have a great deal of technical knowledge. And dealing with people day in and day out would just be the icing on the cake.
> 
> I really don't fault the sales staff.


Heyyyy... Wait a second here... my sarcasm detector is tingling...


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## Bowfreak (Jul 23, 2002)

limbwalker said:


> Very well could be true. But the pro shop owners are supposed to be professionals.


Most of us are. If you would spend just a week in my shop you would see how much stuff it brought in that was purchases online that is either completely wrong for them or won't even work for what they are wanting. Most parents and kids these days are a click away from what they want and order without any knowledge other than Facebook, Snap Chat, or Instagram. They come to us after they are frustrated with something not working or needing warranty work. And I would assume a vast majority quit when they get frustrated and never make it to us.


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## lcaillo (Jan 5, 2014)

Some of us can’t remember the spine we shoot and order the wrong arrows. And some vendors are very accommodating when we do stupid things, e.g. Rick McKinney. 

I buy all my arrows from Rick or Lancaster and if I was unsure of what spine I needed or needed advice on what to buy am sure it would be better than any of the shops in the area. One of them would maybe be worth asking. The others I would not recommend for a new shooter. 

Again, until consumers become smarter and demand more of the local shops and vendors help them become better we will not see much change. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Viper1 (Aug 21, 2003)

Rick - 

So am I, but filtering is a wonderful thing. 

Some how some people make it work despite "seemingly" impossible odds. 
Also seems like most folks (here) want to make it more difficult than it has to be. 

I can't say I've been to every "Pro-shop" in the country, but happily the ones I've worked with aren't as bad as what's described here, and they do still stock (some) aluminum, but yeah it's dying out in a lot of areas. 

Frankly, I'd rather see a new guy with a 25# bow and 500 spine arrows than a 50# bow with 500 spine arrows. 
I can work with the former, the latter not so much. 

Stash - 

I have both hard and digital copies of the "Visual Comparator", but think there'd be some copyright violation about putting it on my website or posting it. 

Alan - 

Most new shooters are in the "experimental" stage and don't need (or want) any of what you describe. And "over spined" arrows are (or should be) the least of their concern. Their form isn't consistent and even it it were, it will change over the next few months IF they stay with it. 

Sorry, a dealer or even a "coach" spending an hour or two on a perfectly matched kit for a guy or girl he may never see again just doesn't make sense - plus you run the risk of freaking out the new shooter with a laundry list of "things to do" before he can actually shoot, than you would with a set of over spined arrows that he won't know are over spined for a few months. Yes Virginia, 500 spine arrows will group from a 25# bow. They might not be pretty or go very far, but they will group. 

Wasn't the NASP using 20# Genesis bows with 1820 Genesis arrows???

Viper1 out.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

Viper1 said:


> Rick -
> 
> So am I, but filtering is a wonderful thing.
> 
> ...


So, you get a brand new archer. Shooting 500 spine arrows, from the 20# bow and the arrows spray over the entire 40 cm target, and half the time, maybe 1/4 of the time the arrow miss the entire target face. So, the "coach" pulls out the magic 1716 arrows, with the standard Easton NIBB points. Full length. New archer is encouraged cuz groups are smaller, and no more arrows miss the 40 cm target face. Now, you pull out the 1716 Easton arrows with the insert installed. Have the heavy weight field point test kit from 3 Rivers archery. Try the 100 grain field point, the 125 grain field point, the 150 grain field point, the 175 grain field point, the 200 grain field point. Now we are ten minutes, maybe 15 minutes into working with this newbie recurve student.

15 minutes to figure what field point weight, on an Easton 1716 to get the new recurve student grouping in the red rings at 10 yards, at 15 yards. THIS is too much effort?


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## Viper1 (Aug 21, 2003)

Alan - 


That's not what happens. 
If a guy walks in with a 20# bow and 500 spine arrows, I would do the same thing as if he walked in with the same 20# bow and 1516s. Go to a 5 yard point and start shooting. Over the next hour (or less), I'd have a pretty good idea about his "shooting ability", why he's there and his general attitude. 

THAT tells me what he needs, what direction we're going and frankly, how much time I should put it. 

If a guy walks in and wants to buy equipment, I'll try to find out "why he's there" and then pick a range of equipment that will work together. Arrow length (draw length) is #1 since that can be a safety factor, draw weight is #2 for obvious reasons, bow length can be a variable and arrow spine is dead last and the table I gave in the other thread is more than adequate.

Let me ask you something: What happens when you perfectly set up a kit for a new guy and a month later his DL increases by an inch or more, learns to anchor and release and not grab the bow? 

Sorry, but I like living in the real world. And yes, I'm talking recurve.

Viper1 out.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

Viper1 said:


> Alan -
> 
> 
> That's not what happens.
> ...


New guy. I set him up with a 20# recurve. New guy, is manly, and says gimme the 40# recurve. I do.
So, I tell him you gotta hit all 3 shots in the red rings at 20 yards, if you are gonna shoot the 40# recurve. He can barely get to anchor and UNDER draws. Sprays all the arrows, some hit the 40 cm target, and most do not. So, I hand him the 20# recurve again, and the magic 1716 Easton aluminums. Roll the target to 5 yards, and in not much time at all,
he can hit the red rings at 5 yards. Roll target to 10 yards. In no time at all, hitting red rings at 10 yards. The full length 1716s (29-inches) will fit most youth and most adults. If I get a really large fella, then, I goto 1916s which will fit 99% of most adults that walk into the range. Takes 5 minutes to screw in the heavy enough field point.

So, do adults OVER draw back to their ear? Yup.
Tell them to put index finger into corner of mouth. PLUS, I make sure to get them arrows at least 2-inches LONGER than they need, in case they over draw.

So, whether it's a month, or two months later, their form evolves. They go from UNDER-drawn to closer to Barrel of the GUN (more narrow stance). So, now the pounds on the fingers are HEAVIER, cuz they are drawing LONGER, closer to WEDGE form. So, whether they shoot the 1916s, with HEAVY screw in field points, or they shoot the 1716s with lighter field points..

NO BIGGIE, cuz I set them up with arrows that were 2-inches "too long" in the first place,
and cuz there are inserts at the front end, NO BIGGIE to screw in different weight field points,
as their full draw posture EVOLVES closer to wedge form, closer to "barrel of the gun".

This is not hard, folks. REALLY not that hard.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

Since MOST newbie recurve shooters are BAREBOW recurve shooters (no sights)
no, the 500 spine arrow will not group, for a BAREBOW recurve shooter, cuz you have to aim WAY off, to get the 500 spine arrow to hit the red rings on the 40 cm target, at 20 yards. SOOO much easier to put the youth shooter in a Easton 1716, with the appropriate field point, so the newbie recurve shooter can point the arrow at the bullseye, and hit the target face...no need to aim off, cuz the 500 spine arrow misses 20-inches left of the bullseye at 18 meters. Makes things easier for the new barebow recurve shooter, encourages them to stay in the sport...when they get positive reinforcement, cuz the arrow actually flys where they are looking.


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## FerrumVeritas (Oct 9, 2020)

Stash said:


> What color is the sky in your world? 😄


I worked in retail and later B2B sales for a very long time, across multiple industries from a niche hobby mom-and-pop shop to a Fortune 50 company.

Retailers that push a sale rather than the right product for individual customers don’t last, and develop exactly the sort of reputation archery pro shops have here.

I’m not going to argue Rick’s experience with archery, but the idea that these are acceptable sales and customer service practices is absurd. Being told to tolerate them will and does drive people from the sport. It’s expensive enough as it is.

Either beginner recurve sales are 1% of a business and pro shops can afford to turn customers away because they don’t sell or know how to sell what they want (or they could persuade these archers to take up compound, which they presumably have the equipment to get people started on), or pro shops can’t afford to turn those customers away and should stock, carry, and be educated on those products.

And arrow manufacturers should absolutely have accurate spine charts. There’s no excuse for that.


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## Rick McKinney (Mar 4, 2008)

Stash, the color of sky I am seeing right now is BS.... Most of you that are responding negatively to the dealers obviously have not lived that life. I have and so have several others. We did sell a lot of target equipment due to our family was heavy into target archery (probably about 5% of sales. However, we did not snub our nose at the bowhunters. We catered to the incredible sales we had from them and used those profits to run the JOAD program at that time (1970's). I still use most of the philosophy that my parents instilled in me. Today's world although there are very few stores that cater to JOAD programs has changed due to lack of understanding a recurve, longbow and even crossbows. Since some of you think it is easy, why don't you get out there and run an archery shop. Get off the comfy couch and start one. It's not that hard and it's really easy money. You might even start a new trend by selling more to target archers over those bowhunters. Prove me wrong.


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## 40n105w! (Dec 29, 2016)

I'm probably going to get in trouble here BUT.....

28" (draw length) divided by pounds pull (OTF) = *approximate* spine. Granted all sorts of variables can come into play but this can get you pretty close. 

For example: 28 /23.5 (my bow's weight OTF) = 11.9. Guess what.... I shoot 1100's and they group and bareshaft just fine. 

I know a lot of people are going to say that's too simple.... but it works out pretty well. If you walk into a shop where they are trying to sell you 600's and what you wanted was advice on whether to buy 1000's or 1100's..... you know you're in the wrong place.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

40n105w! said:


> I'm probably going to get in trouble here BUT.....
> 
> 28" (draw length) divided by pounds pull (OTF) = *approximate* spine. Granted all sorts of variables can come into play but this can get you pretty close.
> 
> ...


28 pounds divided by 23.5 inches draw length gets you 1.191, and if you multiply by 1000, you get 1191 spine.

A lot depends on the arrow shaft length, and the point weight.


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## FerrumVeritas (Oct 9, 2020)

Rick McKinney said:


> Stash, the color of sky I am seeing right now is BS.... Most of you that are responding negatively to the dealers obviously have not lived that life. I have and so have several others. We did sell a lot of target equipment due to our family was heavy into target archery (probably about 5% of sales. However, we did not snub our nose at the bowhunters. We catered to the incredible sales we had from them and used those profits to run the JOAD program at that time (1970's). I still use most of the philosophy that my parents instilled in me. Today's world although there are very few stores that cater to JOAD programs has changed due to lack of understanding a recurve, longbow and even crossbows. Since some of you think it is easy, why don't you get out there and run an archery shop. Get off the comfy couch and start one. It's not that hard and it's really easy money. You might even start a new trend by selling more to target archers over those bowhunters. Prove me wrong.


Rick, you really do seem to be misunderstanding me. I’m not saying that archery pro shops should/have to be experts in target archery, or that they shouldn’t focus on their more profitable market (bow hunters). Of course. I’m saying that if they don’t know how to help a target recurve or barebow archer, they should be honest and upfront about saying so. They shouldn‘t just guess or take a chance with their customers’ money. And if they do, they should be willing to accept returns if the information they gave is wrong.
And nothing you’ve said excuses Easton and others having information that you yourself have said is wildly inaccurate in their arrow charts. Their one job is to sell the arrows they make, and they have the resources to know the characteristics of those arrows.


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## Viper1 (Aug 21, 2003)

40 -

I included that same formula in the Choosing Arrows thread. 
It works as well as anything out there, as long as it's kept within reason. 

Rick - 

I'm at a loss for words... that doesn't happen too often.
Be well.

Viper1 out.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Rick McKinney said:


> Stash, the color of sky I am seeing right now is BS.... Most of you that are responding negatively to the dealers obviously have not lived that life. I have and so have several others. We did sell a lot of target equipment due to our family was heavy into target archery (probably about 5% of sales. However, we did not snub our nose at the bowhunters. We catered to the incredible sales we had from them and used those profits to run the JOAD program at that time (1970's). I still use most of the philosophy that my parents instilled in me. Today's world although there are very few stores that cater to JOAD programs has changed due to lack of understanding a recurve, longbow and even crossbows. Since some of you think it is easy, why don't you get out there and run an archery shop. Get off the comfy couch and start one. It's not that hard and it's really easy money. You might even start a new trend by selling more to target archers over those bowhunters. Prove me wrong.


Where we always end up here on AT. LOL

I don't see where anyone in this thread said running an archery shop was "easy." I'm not willing to do it and I think anyone who is, is crazy for even trying. The old adage is "how do you make a million in an archery shop?... You start with two million..." 

My point is and has always been that it's not that hard to be familiar with arrow spine charts because they are PUBLISHED and AVAILABLE. I'm not asking a shop owner to create their own charts (even though I have done this for one arrow manufacturer myself, on my own time, as a hobby). I'm just saying they are marketing themselves as "pros" so they should at least take the time to learn the damn charts so they can recommend an arrow that's even remotely close. That's all. It is not too much to ask.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

FerrumVeritas said:


> Rick, you really do seem to be misunderstanding me. I’m not saying that archery pro shops should/have to be experts in target archery, or that they shouldn’t focus on their more profitable market (bow hunters). Of course. I’m saying that if they don’t know how to help a target recurve or barebow archer, they should be honest and upfront about saying so. They shouldn‘t just guess or take a chance with their customers’ money. And if they do, they should be willing to accept returns if the information they gave is wrong.
> And nothing you’ve said excuses Easton and others having information that you yourself have said is wildly inaccurate in their arrow charts. Their one job is to sell the arrows they make, and they have the resources to know the characteristics of those arrows.


Don't sweat it. This is how Rick responds when he's fed up with the conversation. 

I've been know to do the same.


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## lcaillo (Jan 5, 2014)

Rick McKinney said:


> Stash, the color of sky I am seeing right now is BS.... Most of you that are responding negatively to the dealers obviously have not lived that life. I have and so have several others. We did sell a lot of target equipment due to our family was heavy into target archery (probably about 5% of sales. However, we did not snub our nose at the bowhunters. We catered to the incredible sales we had from them and used those profits to run the JOAD program at that time (1970's). I still use most of the philosophy that my parents instilled in me. Today's world although there are very few stores that cater to JOAD programs has changed due to lack of understanding a recurve, longbow and even crossbows. Since some of you think it is easy, why don't you get out there and run an archery shop. Get off the comfy couch and start one. It's not that hard and it's really easy money. You might even start a new trend by selling more to target archers over those bowhunters. Prove me wrong.


Rick, while I have not run an archery shop I did spend a couple of decades running service shops for electronics. That is every bit as hard to make a living at. The bar is pretty low for archery dealers. There are some good ones but there are many more that are very unprofessional and have poor customer service. Most don’t deserve your defense. I lived the life and did it at a level that would make a successful archery business with service that would beat the vast majority out there. It can be done but you have to value your customers and be creative at a level most archery dealers don’t come close to. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## FerrumVeritas (Oct 9, 2020)

limbwalker said:


> Don't sweat it. This is how Rick responds when he's fed up with the conversation.
> 
> I've been know to do the same.


It’s probably also true that no shop Rick McKinney ever worked at ever had the problem discussed. At least not while he was working there. Sadly, most shops don’t have Olympic medalists giving advice.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

FerrumVeritas said:


> It’s probably also true that no shop Rick McKinney ever worked at ever had the problem discussed. At least not while he was working there. Sadly, most shops don’t have Olympic medalists giving advice.


Rick grew up before this problem even existed.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

limbwalker said:


> Where we always end up here on AT. LOL
> 
> I don't see where anyone in this thread said running an archery shop was "easy." I'm not willing to do it and I think anyone who is, is crazy for even trying. The old adage is "how do you make a million in an archery shop?... You start with two million..."
> 
> My point is and has always been that it's not that hard to be familiar with arrow spine charts because they are PUBLISHED and AVAILABLE. I'm not asking a shop owner to create their own charts (even though I have done this for one arrow manufacturer myself, on my own time, as a hobby). I'm just saying they are marketing themselves as "pros" so they should at least take the time to learn the damn charts so they can recommend an arrow that's even remotely close. That's all. It is not too much to ask.


Took the liberty to combine the recent instructions from Viper1, and dug up the limbwalker Carbon Express chart. The recommendations from Viper1 generally agree with limbwalker, but limbwalker's recommendations are more granular.


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## "TheBlindArcher" (Jan 27, 2015)

If the "know it all" who recommended my arrows had to buy them back, I would have paid for them twice


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## Rick McKinney (Mar 4, 2008)

I think you are speaking in two different planes. Most archery shops are really bowhunting shops with fringe target sales. Many of you feel that since it is an archery shop they should be experts or at least semi-knowledgeable in target archery. Sort of like a car dealership should be semi-knowledgeable selling motorcycles or maybe race cars?. Most archery dealers started their archery stores because of their passion for bowhunting and wanted to fill a need that was missing in their area. While they sold lots of bowhunting gear some people came in and asked about target equipment. They probably researched it and decided to have a little bit of target equipment but more mainstream equipment, like 3D equipment. I don't think that many of you realize how small a niche recurve target archery is and even smaller is barebow archery. 

Yes, getting people started into target archery is challenging, however, a bowhunting shop is not the place unless the shop owner has found someone like Viper who is willing to take on the challenge of helping potential target archers. However, I am sure there are not many "Vipers" out there willing to take on that challenge. Most of us (like Viper) do it because we love archery and want to share that passion. The rest who love archery do not want to take the time to promote target archery in a bowhunting shop. I fully understand that, but to expect bowhunters to be semi-professional in target archery is expecting too much. 

Now, on the other hand, I have seen (rarely) a recreational/target archery store that is successful. A place in Reno, NV called Wasting Arrows. It was exclusively a store set up for learning target/recreational archery. The actual store was hardly a store for archery equipment until they were convinced to handle basic target/recreational needs. I have not been in the store for nearly 10 years but at the time it proved that there is a need for this type of store. There are a lot of "target" archery stores in southern CA as well. They do sell bowhunting needs but are more target oriented. This is rare but still available. Europe and Asia are 99% target/recreational archery and I am sure there are bowhunters in those areas who complain for the lack of knowledgable sales people in those store who know little to nothing about bowhunting.


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## Patrogers18 (Apr 20, 2021)

I think with limited amount of recurve shooters, you see less guys in the shop that know what they are talking about. Thats why some shops are better than others bc they have that knowledge


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## khart1988 (May 6, 2012)

"TheBlindArcher" said:


> PFFT... No joke once dropped an arrow out of my quiver and it never hit the ground; ended up caught between my boot and ankle of my prosthetic leg, so it's not a given because there are those of us archers who couldn't hit the ground if they dropped an arrow.


 Hahahaha touche! I certainly feel that way many days.


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## woof156 (Apr 3, 2018)

SLC_Recurve said:


> So in one case, they sell an extra set of arrows to a beginner who has to buy a new set in a few weeks or months. In another case, the archer gets frustrated and quits.


i certainly went down that road in the begining but somehow my interest in archery was not "destroyed" by the purchase of arrows of the wrong spine. I think anyone that is that set on perfectly spinned arrows early in their "career" is probably not going to stay in archery for other reasons than arrows of the wrong spine. I see lots of "beginners" doing pretty well at 18M with 500 spine arrows and a 25# bow--they are happy, having a good time and working on technique, consistency etc to get better. No doubt one day they will up the # of the bow or decide to make the next leap they need new arrows of a different spine. I played golf with a cheap set of clubs for years before I sprang for a good set. You either like what your are doing and stick with it or you move on....the reasons may vary but for me poorly spinned arrows seem the least likely reason early on...


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## khart1988 (May 6, 2012)

tassie_devil said:


> For brevity, this is the bit we're all annoyed about. The beginner doesn't know, if the person behind the counter doesn't know they should say so.
> 
> If the beginner buys KNOWING it's a GUESS from someone barely more informed than they are, then it's on them. Otherwise, the shop should be ashamed of themselves.


I agree that "guess" probably isn't the word I should have used, but if someone doesn't know what they don't know, I don't hold that against them.

And at some point they have to sell arrows to keep the doors open. The fact that traditional archers as a whole make up a small portion of the shop's business IS a fact, whether people on here like to hear it or not. And advanced archers who know those details make up a fraction of that pool (SAME goes for compound shooters, so don't flame me). 

If a shop worker can help everyone who walks through the door with a compound, but tells every new customer with a recurve "hey, I don't exactly know how your bow tunes, maybe you can buy a half dozen of each of these and figure out what works best," your customer will leave and find a new shop. People gravitate toward certainty in business, not speculation.

I think people put too much faith in the level of knowledge they're expecting when they walk into a shop as well. If you're very lucky, a nearby shop is run by, or employs/partners with procifient target archers in compound and traditional.

Not apples to apples, but I worked at Bass Pro to put myself through college, and sorry but I'd never ask advice on which firearm or bow equipment to buy from almost every person behind the counter. They may love hunting and be happy they're working in a place that has to do with their hobby, but most aren't tuning or target shooting enthusiasts.

If you don't believe me, go look at handguns, tell them you're on a budget, and watch near 100% of the gun sales try to sell you a Taurus with a straight face, versus on the decreased lifetime cost of ownership and reliability of spending $100 more on a Glock 🤦‍♂️


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## khart1988 (May 6, 2012)

limbwalker said:


> Again, you are in unfamiliar territory but you just don't see that yet.


Just to make sure we are both on the same page, our convo has gone like this:

You: Starts a thread crying about how shops should buy old arrows back from new archers when someone enlightens them that they're shooting the wrong spine.

Me: States that I disagree with you and give my position from a business perspective in what I thought was a respectful manner.

You: Unable to create a response of substance, simply states that I should be excluded from the conversation because of my typical "attitude" toward your nuanced discipline.

Me: Tries to crack a joke, assures you I have no issues with your shoes discipline and express my great interest traditional archery.

You: Weirdly ensures that everyone here KNOWS that you aren't to be included in the "Trad" gang...lest you be confused with those arra-flingin', plaid wearin', hillbillies I guess?

Me: State that despite the particular class of traditional bow you decide to shoot, a bow is a bow is a bow. You tune them the same, but different styles of traditional gear require different spines. And we can't expect every kid behind the bow counter to know that.

You:. BuT wHaT aBoUt GoLf cLuBs AnD yOu JuSt dONt kNoW wHaT mY brAiN kNoWS!

Me:. Fitting gold clubs and tuning arrow spines are apples and oranges.

You: Nah ah! 

Do I have everything correct so far?

So in our entire exchange, you've yet to produce any meaningful substance in your responses because you've backed yourself into a corner. If you have the wealth of knowledge that which you proclaim, please share it as I'm always open to new information and willing to change my views, unlike most. But I NEED to hear the evidence first.

But I ask, do you really think a set of incorrectly-spined arrows is what is driving new traditional archers away from the sport? Everyone sucks in the beginning. Those who ultimately won't stick with it just won't. There's nothing you can do about it.

But those who fall in love WILL ask, "why aren't I shooting as well as I feel like I should?' will dive down the rabbit hole, and become obsessed with it.

It's everyone in between that our community has to help along the way. Tell me, what creates a better experience when coaching a new archer:

"Hey, your form and shot look very good, but your groups don't seem to match that proficiency. I see you're shooting XXX spine arrows, but I believe you should be in YYY, or even ZZZ. The shop guy sold you these? I'm sorry about that, but he may not know that traditional archers and compound archers need different arrows. We'll try a couple new configurations to see what works best, but use these for close shooting drills and bang them up, and save your good arrows for true practice."

OR:

"The shop sold you these last month? Well that guy/girl is either a thief or an idiot, and you should demand your money back, or an exchange for new arrows!"

One both promotes a progression in knowledge, builds confidence in the new archer, and opens their eyes to the fact that they cannot rely on just anyone to tell them what will work for any setup. They'll be encouraged to experiment, and realize that they will have to spend a little money to see what optimally works for them.

The other is a completely negative experience. It gives the impression that the archery community isn't united, there are people in the industry who you despise, their shop is run by crooks which makes them suspicious of all shops, and in general isn't a good way to introduce new archers into the sport.

From our short conversation, I've gathered that maybe you should take a look at your own attitude, and contemplate how THAT may have a much more drastic effect on new archer recruitment than a set of incorrect arrows. Because I guarantee you it doesn't end when you hit the POST button here, and people are very keen to pick up when their "expert" is nothing but a dick.


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## Viper1 (Aug 21, 2003)

woof - 

That's the part, along with HS Physics, that keeps getting forgotten. Thank you. 

khart - 

Sometimes, leaving a conversation makes more sense than continuing to beat your head against a wall.
Your analysis is, of course, correct.

Viper1 out.


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## styks n stryngs (Jan 6, 2015)

This subforum is just two egos butting heads most of the time and honestly, I'm getting really sick of trying to wade through it to find good info. Is it that hard to make comments without your own bias against a specific person coming too obviously into play? We have people putting on "holier than thou" airs and honestly, it's making me lose a lot of the respect I have had for those people.


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## Arcus (Jul 7, 2005)

Rick McKinney said:


> I don't think that many of you realize how small a niche recurve target archery is and even smaller is barebow archery.


I'm reminded of that whenever I show up for a shoot.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Rick McKinney said:


> I think you are speaking in two different planes. Most archery shops are really bowhunting shops with fringe target sales. Many of you feel that since it is an archery shop they should be experts or at least semi-knowledgeable in target archery. Sort of like a car dealership should be semi-knowledgeable selling motorcycles or maybe race cars?. Most archery dealers started their archery stores because of their passion for bowhunting and wanted to fill a need that was missing in their area. While they sold lots of bowhunting gear some people came in and asked about target equipment. They probably researched it and decided to have a little bit of target equipment but more mainstream equipment, like 3D equipment. I don't think that many of you realize how small a niche recurve target archery is and even smaller is barebow archery.
> 
> Yes, getting people started into target archery is challenging, however, a bowhunting shop is not the place unless the shop owner has found someone like Viper who is willing to take on the challenge of helping potential target archers. However, I am sure there are not many "Vipers" out there willing to take on that challenge. Most of us (like Viper) do it because we love archery and want to share that passion. The rest who love archery do not want to take the time to promote target archery in a bowhunting shop. I fully understand that, but to expect bowhunters to be semi-professional in target archery is expecting too much.
> 
> Now, on the other hand, I have seen (rarely) a recreational/target archery store that is successful. A place in Reno, NV called Wasting Arrows. It was exclusively a store set up for learning target/recreational archery. The actual store was hardly a store for archery equipment until they were convinced to handle basic target/recreational needs. I have not been in the store for nearly 10 years but at the time it proved that there is a need for this type of store. There are a lot of "target" archery stores in southern CA as well. They do sell bowhunting needs but are more target oriented. This is rare but still available. Europe and Asia are 99% target/recreational archery and I am sure there are bowhunters in those areas who complain for the lack of knowledgable sales people in those store who know little to nothing about bowhunting.


You should visit X10 archery in Houston sometime. I was a failing archery shop that was turned into a very successful target archery shop by Lynda LeCompte. It could very well be a model for archery shops of the future for large metro areas.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

khart1988 said:


> Just to make sure we are both on the same page, our convo has gone like this:
> 
> You: Starts a thread crying about how shops should buy old arrows back from new archers when someone enlightens them that they're shooting the wrong spine.
> 
> ...


It's tough to admit that you've wandered into an area you don't really know much about (recurve and barebow archery). I understand. 

Ever notice that I don't post anything here about compounds? Ever wonder why?


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## Eugenrigips (Jul 24, 2018)

Wow this is some heated discussion. I personally experienced this problem when I started archery. I got sold 400 Spine arrows for 24lbs DW. I even said that these arrows flied really weird (completly going sideways) after they cut and glued the first arrow. They said this is normal and the bow needs to be set up correctly for the arrows. Prepared the other 11. Some of my Club members then suggested better spined arrows and I kind of doubled my scores compared to the 400 Spine arrows.

So I kind of don't get 2 arguments that are broad up in this thread.

1. Arrow spine does not matter for Beginners : Yes it's not important to get a perfectly spined arrow as a beginner. Something on the stiffer end with enough room for DL increasement, is likely good enough. But if a shop sells something so horribly wrong like in my case and the shooter can't seperate between bad form and bad material. It will definitly slow down his developement as a shooter and in some cases even discourage from keep training at all. 

2. I really don't get why people here defend that shops sell wrongly spined arrows. Whats the deal in simply figuring out what generally works for most lbs and then selling an arrow in that spine area. Even if some of you here critique the easton spine chart, I think it's perfectly fine and accurate enough for any Beginner archer. So even if the shop workers have no experience on selecting OR arrows themselfs they can just look at the spine chart and sell the arrow recommended their. Nothing difficult.

Finding a perfectly spined arrow for a advanced archer is a different process and takes time and trial and error. No shop will have high enough margins on their products to be able to deliver this service. 

Answering the topics question: Yes I think shops should take arrows back if they are drastically wrong spined. If you stick to the basic principles following any spine chart you won't sell arrows that are 2-3 categories spined wrong with bareshafts not even landing on the target at 15meters.


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## Joseph_A_Feiccabrino_Jr (Aug 1, 2021)

WOW!!! with Archery my luck must be changing. I am actually finding good luck. I have responsible and good Archery stores around me. Archery School of the Rockies, Bill Paligrinos Archery Hut, Western Archery, and even CK Archery They all steer me in the right direction. Also being selected to be a Darton has aligned me with great companies like Darton, Black Eagle, Conquest. I do not get archery equipment at sporting goods box stores, Amazon, eBay, Walmart... I am sorry for those that do especially after reading this thread of nightmare stories.

Black Eagle spine charts are good and will get you to what is likely to be within 100 spine, 50 spine if you shoot revelation 3:20 arrows. The intrepid is the primary recurve arrow and is included in the spine chart. There are a number of arrows that have a large spine range where it may be possible for the same arrow to be used in recurve and archery as a major US Archery wholesaler, retailer mentions in reviews, would check with Black Eagle before using a compound arrow for recurve arrow. It is not spin the knock 90 degrees to get it to flex horizontally instead of vertically. Physics do not work that way no matter what the clown at the sporting goods box store tells you. It will very likely take a spine change. 

Personally, if I make an incorrect sale to a customer, and am at fault I will make it right to the customer, if the store stands behind me or not. There are to many resources here. I will delay the sale until I am sure it is correct. Just tell the customer I need to do some research to make sure the sale is in their best interest, because if it is not, it is not in the store's interest either. If an error is made it needs to be made right.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

Eugenrigips said:


> Wow this is some heated discussion. I personally experienced this problem when I started archery. I got sold 400 Spine arrows for 24lbs DW. I even said that these arrows flied really weird (completly going sideways) after they cut and glued the first arrow. They said this is normal and the bow needs to be set up correctly for the arrows. Prepared the other 11. Some of my Club members then suggested better spined arrows and I kind of doubled my scores compared to the 400 Spine arrows.
> 
> So I kind of don't get 2 arguments that are broad up in this thread.
> 
> ...


Spine recommendation chart, with info from Viper1 and info from limbwalker.










IF an absolute beginner, go with the aluminum arrow at LEAST the Easton Platinum Plus 1716.
What's so special about the 1716? THIS is the most flexible spine aluminum arrow (weakest) that accepts a field insert, so you can screw in field points. You can try 100 grain field point, you can try 125 grain field point, you can try a 150 grain field point, you can try the 175 grain field point, you can try the 200 grain field point, the 225 grain field point, the 250 grain field point, the 275 grain field point and the 300 grain field point.

LEAVE it FULL length, to make it easier for the "pro shop". Have all the field points (sets of 3 for each point weight)
and have 2 FLETCHED Easton 1716s, and one bareshaft (no tape at the back end please) Easton 1716. Then,
the "pro shop" guy can walk away, and work with the COMPOUND customers. The newbie BEGINNER customer
can screw in the field points themselves, and see which field point weight will allow the Easton 1716s (fletched and bareshaft) to group together at 10 yards.

NOT that complicated folks. SMH.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

In case it might help someone, here are the "arrow spine rules of thumb" I posted years ago.









Arrow Selection "rules of thumb" for Oly. recurves


I get about 3-5 PM's a day here, and another 2-3 emails a week about selecting arrows for recurves and barebow rigs. I thought it may be helpful to post some general "guidelines" I have stored in my head, based on many setups I've tuned for students and fellow archers. Just like arrow...




www.archerytalk.com


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## Stash (Jun 1, 2002)

Now that we have all that sorted out 😄, let me open a new can of worms...

I always have trouble suggesting spines for people shooting arrows considerably longer than their DLs.

Consider someone shooting a 30# marked bow at 28” DL and a 28” arrow. Let’s use Viper’s guidelines from the other thread. No brainer - 1716.

Now. Consider someone shooting a 26# marked bow at 30” DL, so holding 30#, and a 30” arrow. Again simple. Go up one size, 1816.

But what about someone shooting a 34# marked bow at 26” DL, so also holding 30#, but also a 30” arrow? Chart would also say 1816.

But, a 30# bow with the power stroke of a 30” draw has a lot more energy than a 30# bow with the power stroke of a 26” draw. So why the same spine recommendation?

What’s the guideline for selecting arrows considerably longer than your DL? All the charts simply relate draw weight to arrow length, but no regard for the actual power of the bow,

Thoughts?


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

Stash said:


> Now that we have all that sorted out 😄, let me open a new can of worms...
> 
> I always have trouble suggesting spines for people shooting arrows considerably longer than their DLs.
> 
> ...


Doing this exercise right now for my barebow cadet recurve student. 20.5 lbs on the fingers. 24 lb limbs. Recurve draw about 26.25 inches. Goal is to get point on for the 40 cm target face at 18 meters, so gonna try 1813s and 1816s, full length at 30 inches, and working with super heavy TopHat field points. I have been able to do this for adult compound fingers shooters, getting point on somewhere on the 40cm target face. This time, will attempt to do this for my cadet barebow recurve student. Parts ordered, and should arrive in a week or two.

Will let u know my findings. Dynamic spine matters, if you wanna win tournaments.


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## Stash (Jun 1, 2002)

OK, just a quick survey...suggest a spine for these two archers. Assume fairly new archers with a few months experience, but not absolute beginners. Same holding weight and arrow length. Same point weight.

Archer A - 30” draw, holding 35#, Olympic style, 30” arrow length close to same as draw length. Good quality bow, no-stretch string. Plunger.

Archer B - 26” draw, holding 35#, Barebow, wants 30” arrow to get point of aim on target at close range. Cheap bow, dacron string. No plunger.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Stash said:


> OK, just a quick survey...suggest a spine for these two archers. Assume fairly new archers with a few months experience, but not absolute beginners. Same holding weight and arrow length. Same point weight.
> 
> Archer A - 30” draw, holding 35#, Olympic style, 30” arrow length close to same as draw length. Good quality bow, no-stretch string. Plunger.
> 
> Archer B - 26” draw, holding 35#, Barebow, wants 30” arrow to get point of aim on target at close range. Cheap bow, dacron string. No plunger.


500 spine. Because that's the lightest we have in stock.


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## Hikari (May 15, 2021)

If we are opening cans of worms, if you stringwalk, do you want a stiffer arrow for longer crawls because you are effectively dry-firing the bow and the force placed on the arrow when the string catches it is greater?


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Hikari said:


> If we are opening cans of worms, if you stringwalk, do you want a stiffer arrow for longer crawls because you are effectively dry-firing the bow and the force placed on the arrow when the string catches it is greater?


I think that's a whole other discussion. Most barebow archers don't even know that, much less shop owners who don't shoot barebow. 

I started this thread mainly to share in the frustration I see literally all the time with archers being given crappy advice from supposed "professionals" in the industry.


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## Hikari (May 15, 2021)

limbwalker said:


> I think that's a whole other discussion. Most barebow archers don't even know that, much less shop owners who don't shoot barebow.
> 
> I started this thread mainly to share in the frustration I see literally all the time with archers being given crappy advice from supposed "professionals" in the industry.


You are quite right. I just thought I would throw in something that shows the complexity of the sport (and someone did mention a can of worms). I know, as someone interested in barebow, I had to do a lot of work on my own to purchase my first setup. I think if I wanted a compound or a wooden ILF riser (trad?), I could probably find better retailer knowledge. But as you slip down the scale to OR and Barebow, it becomes harder. 

My biggest surprise is how few archers do barebow. (The only other barebow shooter I have met in the flesh is my wife and I bought her the bow (obviously a costly solution to increase the barebow population locally)). My favorite quote from an OR archer I met was, "stringwalking does not work: I tried it." So for me, getting into archery has been a bit like living in a vacuum.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Barebow is the fastest growing discipline in the sport, by far, and will continue to be. The numbers of barebow archers at both indoor and outdoor Nationals the past few years have really opened some eyes, and made some elitists within the sport eat their words. Barebow has the most to offer in terms of diversity within a single discipline, the lowest barrier to entry, and the most relaxed and fun group of archers to spend time with. Now that Millennials and GenZ'ers have adopted barebow, I think it's finally here to stay in the target events.


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## Hikari (May 15, 2021)

I agree with that assessment of barebow. I certainly took it up for many of the reasons you posted, although I am not a Millennial or GenZ.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Hikari said:


> I agree with that assessment of barebow. I certainly took it up for many of the reasons you posted, although I am not a Millennial or GenZ.


Me neither, but it's been a joy to watch those generations embrace the challenge and simplicity of barebow. I think it's in great hands now.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

limbwalker said:


> 500 spine. Because that's the lightest we have in stock.


Nah. 400 spine will do just fine, cuz....Viper1 says spine don't matter, for newbie barebow shooters...STiff arrows will still group, right?


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## Viper1 (Aug 21, 2003)

Stash - 

Asked and answered on the "choosing arrows" thread.

Viper1 out.


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## Stash (Jun 1, 2002)

Would you mind just giving your recommendation (post #201) here?
Archer A?
Archer B?


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## Viper1 (Aug 21, 2003)

Stash - 

Yeah, I would. 
You can read the reasoning there.

If I were teaching those two, both would start with full length 1816s (758 spine). 
Archer A *MAY* need to go stiffer later on and B *MAY* need to go weaker, but you're looking for a starting point and not the final or optimal arrow. That's the point that keeps getting missed. 
Notice that the word MAY is underlined and bold. The 1816s *MAY *actually turn out to be optimal for either or both.

Alan - 



> Nah. 400 spine will do just fine, cuz....Viper1 says spine don't matter, for newbie barebow shooters...STiff arrows will still group, right?


400's (or any other spine) would have to group. You may not like how they fly or where they go, but they will go in the same place. Talk to you HS Physics teacher and he'll explain why. 

BTW - Stiff arrows will group only group right for a left handed shooter. I assume that's what you meant? 

Viper1 out.


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## Stash (Jun 1, 2002)

Thanks, but that wasn’t my question. I was asking for a best recommendation based on the specs and requirements specified, not a “starting point” for a beginner.

I’m not looking for an argument, or trying to post a “gotcha” question. I just want to know what experienced people would suggest for these two hypothetical archers as the best initial choice.


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## Viper1 (Aug 21, 2003)

Stash -

Yeah, you are either looking for an argument or you really don't understand how this stuff works. 
Even two archers with identical draw lengths, using the same bows may have two different "best" arrows due to form quirks. Two "top of the line" limbs may have a 10 fps difference or differences in preload changing arrow requirements. 

The "best" we can do is a starting point, after that's it's trail and error. Been that way as long as I've been shooting. The "best" calculators out there are still just guesses. 

Seriously, but it's just not t hat complicated and making it seem that way does most people more harm than good.

Viper1 out.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Stash said:


> Thanks, but that wasn’t my question. I was asking for a best recommendation based on the specs and requirements specified, not a “starting point” for a beginner.
> 
> I’m not looking for an argument, or trying to post a “gotcha” question. I just want to know what experienced people would suggest for these two hypothetical archers as the best initial choice.


See how frustrating it is Stash. Especially when you know the person you're asking "should" know the answer...


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## Stash (Jun 1, 2002)

Well, I posed the question to everyone, not to a specific individual. It’s not mandatory for anyone to answer.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Stash said:


> Well, I posed the question to everyone, not to a specific individual. It’s not mandatory for anyone to answer.


I understand. And there are a number of folks here who know the answer. But these 500 spine we have in stock should be good enough.


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## Stash (Jun 1, 2002)

limbwalker said:


> I understand. And there are a number of folks here who know the answer. But these 500 spine we have in stock should be good enough.


Well, Viper actually did answer my question. Would be nice if some of the other “folks here who know the answer” also would.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Stash said:


> Well, Viper actually did answer my question. Would be nice if some of the other “folks here who know the answer” also would.


Good for you. You found the one "shop owner" in your area who understands customer service and wasn't too lazy or cheap to provide it.

Sorry to jerk your chain Stash, but you provided too good of an opportunity to illustrate my (and many others) point here.


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## Stash (Jun 1, 2002)

OK, whatever.

So, seriously, what would YOU suggest for my two hypothetical archers? Not 500s, please. 

Again, my interest is seeing how people approach the issue of archers with the same draw weight and arrow length, but significantly different draw lengths (bow stored energy).


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Stash said:


> OK, whatever.
> 
> So, seriously, what would YOU suggest for my two hypothetical archers? Not 500s, please.
> 
> Again, my interest is seeing how people approach the issue of archers with the same draw weight and arrow length, but significantly different draw lengths (bow stored energy).


In your example, the archer with the shorter draw length could use a weaker arrow because the distance between the bowstring and plunger is shorter, causing the arrow to be dynamically stiffer.

Normally I'd say the barebow archer would want a slightly stiffer arrow that would cancel out the shorter span to the plunger and bring the two setups closer together, but you sad dacron string, so I'd stick with the slightly weaker arrow.

If I were the pro shop owner, I'd grab a 700 spine bare shaft with a 100 grain point, have them shoot it to see where to go from there. Since I'm not a "professional" in the archery industry, I'd have them come by my house after work some day and then I'd grab a 700 spine bare shaft out of my bin of test shafts (that I used to help my JOAD archers for 15 years), and go from there. The whole process to advise them what to buy would take no longer than about 10 minutes tops. Over the past 15 years I've probably done this 100 times for students who ranged from complete beginners to former USAT archers and everyone in-between. 

But I'm not a "pro" so take all that advice with a grain of salt.


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## FerrumVeritas (Oct 9, 2020)

Stash said:


> OK, just a quick survey...suggest a spine for these two archers. Assume fairly new archers with a few months experience, but not absolute beginners. Same holding weight and arrow length. Same point weight.
> 
> Archer A - 30” draw, holding 35#, Olympic style, 30” arrow length close to same as draw length. Good quality bow, no-stretch string. Plunger.
> 
> Archer B - 26” draw, holding 35#, Barebow, wants 30” arrow to get point of aim on target at close range. Cheap bow, dacron string. No plunger.


The part that throws me here is “Barebow…no plunger.” So I might be completely wrong. I’m at least going to assume that they’re using a stick on rest and can make center shot adjustments by adding 3M foam stickers (basically I’m picturing a club bow that someone owns).

I’ve never used aluminum, so my experience is purely with carbon. 

For archer A, I’d want a 650 spine with a 120 grain point. That’s assuming that they’re using Mylar fletching and pin nocks. But I’d tell them to also order 100 grain points, in case we need to stiffen them a bit. If they have particularly fast limbs (like Uukhas), I might recommend 600. If their clicker can go far enough, I’d also recommend starting at 30.5” for some tuning forgiveness.

For archer B, it’s a little trickier. If they’re string walking, I’d probably put put it at almost the same as archer A (but 30” starting, not 30.5). If they’re gap shooting, I’d go with 700 spine, 120 grain points (a little nose heavier helps lower point on too), but warn them we may need to trim it as much as 1” during tuning since their bow has no room for adjustment. If they’re using a super rest or shooting off the shelf, I’d also suggest experimenting with feather size to help control point on. On the off chance that it’s too stiff, the first thing I would do is switch the nocks.


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## Viper1 (Aug 21, 2003)

Stash - 

Unfortunately, the premise of this thread was negative, so a lot of good responses may be tainted. 
I thought you just wanted an answer and not a poll to see who thought what. 

Honestly, that kind of thread, with 26 opinions from 24 people, IMHO, does more harm than good for the new guys trying to learn something. 

Viper1 out.


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## Stash (Jun 1, 2002)

I did say “just a quick survey”, so I thought my post #201 was pretty clear. A spine and a length for archer A and a spine and a length for archer B. That's all.

The scenario in my mind was an archer having to order arrows on-line, with no opportunity to test or adjust, and to find what experienced people would think was the most likely best fit for them.

Nothing nefarious, nothing sinister, not trying to start an argument, just a question. And the purpose of the question was to see if and how people considered the significance of the total stored energy (weight plus power stroke) and the energy transfer (limb and string quality) of the bow in arrow selection, compared to just the generic draw weight and arrow length. As I discussed in #199.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Stash said:


> I did say “just a quick survey”, so I thought my post #201 was pretty clear. A spine and a length for archer A and a spine and a length for archer B. That's all.
> 
> The scenario in my mind was an archer having to order arrows on-line, with no opportunity to test or adjust, and to find what experienced people would think was the most likely best fit for them.
> 
> Nothing nefarious, nothing sinister, not trying to start an argument, just a question. And the purpose of the question was to see if and how people considered the significance of the total stored energy and the energy transfer of the bow in arrow selection, compared to just the draw weight and arrow length. As I discussed in #199.


I feel like anyone who is a full-time professional in the archery industry should at the very least, be able to recommend a "useable" arrow size/spine to someone who asks them. By "useable" I mean within 1 spine/size range in either direction. Because if someone is within 1 spine of what they need, there are ways to adjust that arrow to get it to shoot straight.

For recurve archers, an arrow that shoots "straight" (on plane with the sight) is easier to achieve because they have more adjustments to work with (plunger centershot and tension and sight adjustments) than a barebow archer. Sure, some barebow archers have plunger adjustments, but it's actually more important for a barebow archer to be working with the right spine than a recurve archer so that the arrow will go where they are aiming and not off to the right or left - because a barebow archer cannot simply adjust the windage on their sight. Sure, they can "aim off" but that is pretty frustrating, especially for new archers. But that's what usually happens. A new archer will be sold a set of arrows that are WAY too stiff, and they have to compensate by aiming somewhere other than the center of the target. That's a very unfortunate way to start out in the sport.

A good arrow spine chart will usually get someone within 1 spine size of what they need and then they can manipulate the arrow and/or bow to at least USE those arrows until they learn more. Chances are they will be changing equipment in a year anyway, so each set of arrows for a new archer will just need to last them about a year. In that time, it's on the archer or their parent or coach to learn more about that archer's particular needs and order the next set of arrows accordingly.


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## Viper1 (Aug 21, 2003)

Stash - 

Ok, fair enough. 

For a NEW shooter, close enough will always be close enough for the reasons I outlined.

For an experienced shooter (OR, bare bow, trad or whatever), since he already has been using arrows that may or may not be "optimal", he should have the data to make an educated guess as to his next purchase. 

In the two scenarios above (new vs. experienced), the "details" you gave are theoretically irrelevant. 

Viper1 out.


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## Stash (Jun 1, 2002)

OMG, it’s just a question, not a matter of life and death...

How about this: Archer A is an experienced Olympic class shooter and Archer B is an experienced Barebow shooter. Specs as above. They were in the parking lot, getting in their cars after a practise, and got accosted by a couple of bad guys who robbed them and pistol whipped them, causing concussions and a very specific temporary memory loss. Archer A lost only his arrows, and Archer B lost his bow as well, but has a cheap bow at the same draw weight at home, but can’t afford to buy a new replacement bow just yet.

While they are *both perfectly fine in every other way,* they simply cannot remember their arrow specifications. They have a very important competition in a couple of days and need arrows, and don’t have time to test, so they need the best possible advice.

OK?

Maybe I should post it in General and get Dale or someone else there to answer...

😄


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## Viper1 (Aug 21, 2003)

Stash - 

If they were stupid enough not to have kept a dope book, it's still on them.
I know, I know, the dope book was stolen or lost in a fire, right?
(I keep notes on riser/limb/arrow combinations and resultant fps going back years.)

And frankly, if the concussion was real, they wouldn't be shooting, seriously or otherwise in a few days. 

I get you're point, but it just doesn't pan out in the real world.

OK, now I'm just bustin' yer shoes. 

Viper1 out.


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## FerrumVeritas (Oct 9, 2020)

Stash said:


> OMG, it’s just a question, not a matter of life and death...
> 
> How about this: Archer A is an experienced Olympic class shooter and Archer B is an experienced Barebow shooter. Specs as above. They were in the parking lot, getting in their cars after a practise, and got accosted by a couple of bad guys who robbed them and pistol whipped them, causing concussions and a very specific temporary memory loss. Archer A lost only his arrows, and Archer B lost his bow as well, but has a cheap bow at the same draw weight at home, but can’t afford to buy a new replacement bow just yet.
> 
> ...


I stand by my answer. Those arrows will shoot well enough in a pinch, and have room for fine tuning—described above.

Anyone strongly disagree, or does the fact that I insisted that normal retail practices apply to archery stores mean I’m on everyone’s ignore list now?


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## "TheBlindArcher" (Jan 27, 2015)

This just isn't any fun anymore. Time to drop the keyboards and pick up the bows


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## Stash (Jun 1, 2002)

Kelly, except for a rare thread that pops up from time to time, this whole forum hadn’t been “fun” for a decade or more.... (smiling) 😄. It’s more of a bad habit.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Grown adults should know when to step away and when things shouldn't be taken personally. There are a lot of people who never post here who learn a lot from these discussions. I hear from them all the time. If it bothers someone to see two members disagree, then maybe social media isn't for them.


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## Stash (Jun 1, 2002)

I’m not seeing all that much discord in this thread. If you read everyone’s posts as just a normal conversation, maybe sitting around a campfire or something, and don’t insert any imagined anger or raised voices, it’s just a nice discussion about arrow selection.



Based on my scenario in #201, without getting into points and tuning, I get the following for Archer A and Archer B

Viper1 - 30” 750 and 30” 750
Limbwalker - 30” 700 and 30” 700 (assumed 30” - he didn’t specify)
FerrumVeritas - 30.5” 650 and 30.5” 700
Stash - 30” 700 and 30” 800 

Interesting that a couple of us suggest about the same arrow, a couple of us suggest a weaker spine for the shorter draw archer. Again, not arguing, not saying anyone is wrong, just observing.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Stash said:


> I’m not seeing all that much discord in this thread. If you read everyone’s posts as just a normal conversation, maybe sitting around a campfire or something, and don’t insert any imagined anger or raised voices, it’s just a nice discussion about arrow selection.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


That's a good sample. In a pinch, either of those archers could make 650's, 700's or 750's work, and possibly even the 800's you suggest, especially if they were fletched with vanes.


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## Stash (Jun 1, 2002)

Can we at least agree that we wouldn’t insist the store buy back any of these? 😄


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Stash said:


> Can we at least agree that we wouldn’t insist the store buy back any of these? 😄


If the store missed by one spine size, I think they should get a good review from the customer. The bar is pretty low.


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## Mr. Musk (May 27, 2021)

I don't know why anyone would ask someone what arrow, what spine, what weight arrow they should shoot. You should know what poundage you're bow is set at, what weight broadhead you're going to use, what length arrow you're going to shoot. With all that info go to all the arrow brands web sights and they will tell you what spine to buy. I know what spine to buy and what length it needs cut at. I go to the archery shop and pick out the box(s) of the arrow I want and tape one of my current arrows I'm using to it so they know how long to cut it. I give that to the archery guy at the shop and they call me when the arrows are ready. Often times, if you look at the box arrows come in, typically they'll have a chart telling what spine to buy. Bow hunters should test different arrows and know which one shoots best based on their bow, their rest, their form, their broadhead and make their own decision as to the best arrow for them and and their setup.


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## FerrumVeritas (Oct 9, 2020)

Mr. Musk said:


> I don't know why anyone would ask someone what arrow, what spine, what weight arrow they should shoot. You should know what poundage you're bow is set at, what weight broadhead you're going to use, what length arrow you're going to shoot. With all that info go to all the arrow brands web sights and they will tell you what spine to buy. I know what spine to buy and what length it needs cut at. I go to the archery shop and pick out the box(s) of the arrow I want and tape one of my current arrows I'm using to it so they know how long to cut it. I give that to the archery guy at the shop and they call me when the arrows are ready. Often times, if you look at the box arrows come in, typically they'll have a chart telling what spine to buy. Bow hunters should test different arrows and know which one shoots best based on their bow, their rest, their form, their broadhead and make their own decision as to the best arrow for them and and their setup.


So did you miss that this is about target recurve and/or target barebow? Or about new archers?


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Mr. Musk said:


> I don't know why anyone would ask someone what arrow, what spine, what weight arrow they should shoot. You should know what poundage you're bow is set at, what weight broadhead you're going to use, what length arrow you're going to shoot. With all that info go to all the arrow brands web sights and they will tell you what spine to buy. I know what spine to buy and what length it needs cut at. I go to the archery shop and pick out the box(s) of the arrow I want and tape one of my current arrows I'm using to it so they know how long to cut it. I give that to the archery guy at the shop and they call me when the arrows are ready. Often times, if you look at the box arrows come in, typically they'll have a chart telling what spine to buy. Bow hunters should test different arrows and know which one shoots best based on their bow, their rest, their form, their broadhead and make their own decision as to the best arrow for them and and their setup.


I think you missed the BOLD part of the original post, if you even bothered to read it. This isn't about compounds and certainly isn't about broadheads or bowhunters, which is why this is posted on the FITA forum and not the general or bowhunting forum.


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## Boomer2094 (Aug 12, 2016)

limbwalker said:


> That's a good sample. In a pinch, either of those archers could make 650's, 700's or 750's work, and possibly even the 800's you suggest, especially if they were fletched with vanes.


Problem with that, in the shop I been to around where I live, is that none of them stock arrows with that kind of spine... 500 is the weakest spine I saw... Unless you are shooting Genesis bows and use aluminum genesis arrows, which is the reason why most barebow shooters get sold 500 spine arrows... because that's what the shop has in stock. And consider how most people don't do their homework when it comes to purchasing archery gear, it is not surprising that they just blindly followed the shop's recommendations and/or just brought whichever arrows in stock atm.

Such is the problem with OR and Barebow newbies trying to get started... The "pro shops" are simply NOT equipped nor have enough knowledge to properly advice the newbies. Consider that OR and Barebow is not the majority of the archers here in the US, it is not surprising that most archery shops don't have the equipment and the knowledge to cater to the OR and Barebow crowd.

Perhaps, with the raising popularity of Barebows, archery stores and their owners would start to stock gears/arrows and educate themselves to cater to the raising barebow crowd. Until that time comes, read as much as possible, educate yourself and buy the approximately correct spine arrow online. because the "pro shop" ain't so pro when it comes to OR/Barebows.


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## woof156 (Apr 3, 2018)

Boomer2094 said:


> Problem with that, in the shop I been to around where I live, is that none of them stock arrows with that kind of spine... 500 is the weakest spine I saw... Unless you are shooting Genesis bows and use aluminum genesis arrows, which is the reason why most barebow shooters get sold 500 spine arrows... because that's what the shop has in stock. And consider how most people don't do their homework when it comes to purchasing archery gear, it is not surprising that they just blindly followed the shop's recommendations and/or just brought whichever arrows in stock atm.
> 
> Such is the problem with OR and Barebow newbies trying to get started... The "pro shops" are simply NOT equipped nor have enough knowledge to properly advice the newbies. Consider that OR and Barebow is not the majority of the archers here in the US, it is not surprising that most archery shops don't have the equipment and the knowledge to cater to the OR and Barebow crowd.
> 
> Perhaps, with the raising popularity of Barebows, archery stores and their owners would start to stock gears/arrows and educate themselves to cater to the raising barebow crowd. Until that time comes, read as much as possible, educate yourself and buy the approximately correct spine arrow online. because the "pro shop" ain't so pro when it comes to OR/Barebows.


I asked the guys at our local shop about this and they said 500 spine shafts and some fletched 600 spine arrows and that they did not have much of any demand for the others--- along the lines of what you mentioned. And the few non compound bows they deal with are for hunting up around 50# or so so 500/600 spine arrows fit the bill.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

woof156 said:


> I asked the guys at our local shop about this and they said 500 spine shafts and some fletched 600 spine arrows and that they did not have much of any demand for the others--- along the lines of what you mentioned. And the few non compound bows they deal with are for hunting up around 50# or so so 500/600 spine arrows fit the bill.


I understand supply/demand and not stocking lighter spined arrows. That I get.

What I don't get and frankly loathe are shop owners that don't know enough about archery to properly recommend (and order if they need to) arrows below that 500/600 spine.

If they would just keep a tube of test bare shafts and spend literally 5 minutes with the customer, they will probably get a sale and surely create a new customer.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Maybe what we need are dealers who are "authorized fitters" like golf has authorized club fitters. Have them get a training certification so at least a customer can choose a shop based on objective qualifications.

I can go in Golf Galaxy, pick out a set of clubs and take them to the counter to purchase them. But if I want a proper club fitting, I'm going to find an authorized club fitter and go there. Why should archery be any different?


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## Joseph_A_Feiccabrino_Jr (Aug 1, 2021)

God bless everyone. Thank you for all you do here and in other threads like this one. It is of great use and education to archers like me that live a large distance from anywhere. By trying to participate, even when it shows that I am very new and still have a lot more to learn, it helps me to learn faster, and I do not take the correction personal. It lets me know I still have much to learn. I am sorry if my learning causes some offense. I do take what could be inferred as attacks on Darton, Black Eagle, and Conquest personally though and I will explain some later. My connection with these companies, Archery School of the Rockies, CK Archery, and Western Archery are much more personal than normal business relations.

I did come into archery by way of the crossbow, and that I have friends that wanted me to go hunting with them. I am very sick and disabled. I cannot shot a hunting rifle. If I try to shoot a legal rifle for hunting in Colorado I will seriously injure myself, have some life-threatening internal bleeding issues. Will not have the 7.62mm round anywhere close to the intended target, some unlucky bird may be hit or something when the trajectory of the 7.62mm round returns to Earth. When I found a crossbow that would allow me to grow and develop good skills by CrossbowNation, and searching the internet it was a Darton. It was very small in size so I would fit the crossbow, and of enough quality that I could learn to shoot well and not have issues with the crossbow not being high enough quality to shoot good, and still affordable. They were into quality shooting and not chasing some insane speed issue, of trying to get to the speed of sound or something and lose any ability to actually hit an intended target in a repeatable and predictable manner. Darton will directly sell to people like me, but when I contacted them and we talked and set things up for the sale, they made me a Darton shooter, and asked me if I would go to Archery School of the Rockies their retailer closest to me for the sale. That it would be much better for me. I did, and this also started a relation with Black Eagle. I still target shoot a lot more than I hunt. Needing to take IV medicine at night during hunting season is difficult, be a lot easier if hunting season was in the summer.

Darton finally made a ccompound bow that a person with 25" Draw Length can shoot. So I started to also shoot compound with the help of Darton, Black Eagle, Conquest, and Archery School of the Rockies. Western Archery is 2 hours instead of 3 hours and has some leagues and coaching a little closer to home. They are in Salida, Colorado, instead of Colorado Springs, Colorado. CK Archery helps me with small things and has 2 indoor lanes to shoot at and is about 1 hour from me in Frisco, Colorado. It is the added care of Darrton, Black Eagle, Conquest and these archery centers that allow me to participate and grow in archery. Darton could of just sold me the crossbow directly and no hoby family relationship would of been formed with these companies. Compound Archery I shoot in the spine area we are currently talking 600 spine, 500 spine with insert weight and heavy target points. If I try to buy arrows at a box store they always try to over spine me and sell me 200 to 400 spine arrows. At 50m being that over spinned I would be lucky to find the target face, or even the protective backstop for that matter.

I recently had an osteomyelitis, sepsis infection of the bone marrow, and went from 62kg to 45kg. I need to get back to 55kg to 60kg to be healthy. For health, reasons can no longer look to martial arts, bicycling, swimming, or cross-country skiing to build the muscle mass needed. So getting into Olympic Recurve archery, it will require more physical growth at faster rates than compound archery. MK Archery is a company that produces Olympic Recurve risers and limbs that do not require me to demonstrate bows from companies that directly compete with Darton and are of quality that will allow me to repeat and predict shots, so I can become good. I plan to use Fleetwood limbs until I get to a good limb weight. With MK Archery the relationship is just starting and is much more business-related. Not also personal or family-like as it is with Darton, Black Eagle, and Conquest, but may change with time and how good I am able to become. MK Archery is very happy to know me and is interested, but just not like what Darton, Black Eagle, and Conquest has been.

Because of the relation with Black Eagle, you will find me being very loyal with them. That I will prefer and recommend Black Eagle arrows. I will learn about other companies better, but will use. I did learn that I can use the Black Eagle arrows in both compound and recurve but will need to use a better knock for each discipline and need to be sure the spine is correct for each. For a normal diameter arrow, I will need to use the Intrepid, for macro-diameter the PS 23 and use inserts and heavy target points, and micro-diameter Deep Impact or X Impact for outdoor 50m or 70m especially in the wind in Colorado mountains. When I get good move to Revelation 3:20 that uses a more advanced target point not screw into an insert or outsert. Can only adjust the spine of the arrow about 50, spine, and not about 100 spine with the outsert and screw in target point. Also a very significant increase in price.

Archery has improved happiness and joy in life, it should also help me suffer with great joy longer on Earth too.

God bless everyone and thank you.


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## "TheBlindArcher" (Jan 27, 2015)

limbwalker said:


> I understand supply/demand and not stocking lighter spined arrows. That I get.
> 
> What I don't get and frankly loathe are shop owners that don't know enough about archery to properly recommend (and order if they need to) arrows below that 500/600 spine.
> 
> If they would just keep a tube of test bare shafts and spend literally 5 minutes with the customer, they will probably get a sale and surely create a new customer.



Not disagreeing that shops should do, or strive to do, better, but what does shooting a correct, or nearly correcgt, spine bare shaft show from a beginner? Don[t doubt it works because of how many of you more experienced archers/coaches do it, but what exactly are you looking for? I know I'm a very very small segment of even the beginner population, but how would a tech recognize the shooting difference between different spines for me versus the simple fact I can't aim without my tactile stand? Knowledge and spine charts aside, I'm just curious about the actual shooting of a variety of shafts... Perhaps there is a way for me to modify the normal process/results to my own [and other beginner VI archers] situation.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

"TheBlindArcher" said:


> Not disagreeing that shops should do, or strive to do, better, but what does shooting a correct, or nearly correcgt, spine bare shaft show from a beginner? Don[t doubt it works because of how many of you more experienced archers/coaches do it, but what exactly are you looking for? I know I'm a very very small segment of even the beginner population, but how would a tech recognize the shooting difference between different spines for me versus the simple fact I can't aim without my tactile stand? Knowledge and spine charts aside, I'm just curious about the actual shooting of a variety of shafts... Perhaps there is a way for me to modify the normal process/results to my own [and other beginner VI archers] situation.


A halfway decent coach or pro shop owner should be able to watch an archer and get a feel for whether an arrow shaft is over or under spined. Now I'm not talking about a rank beginner. I'm talking about someone who has at least reasonable and consistent technique. But even if it is a beginner, that's what spine charts are for. No spine chart is ever going to recommend 500 spine arrows for a 4' 6" kid shooting a 20# recurve, for example.

This isn't rocket science.

A lot of people working in the archery industry and passing themselves off as "pros" don't even know arrow spines under 1000, much less 1500 or 2000, exist.


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## Rick McKinney (Mar 4, 2008)

John, I am having a hard time digesting your anger towards pro shop owners and employees. It appears you are throwing virtually all of them under the bus because you feel they should do better for such a very small group of people. I for one have experienced the effort many shops make to find out what would be best for a beginning/intermediate archer with very light poundage. I get calls constantly from dealers asking for my advice. I do not nor will I ever encourage them to invest in several dozen shafts that will sit on the shelf waiting for the next rare individual to ask for very weak shafts. It just doesn't make sense. What comes to mind is this definition: "a person who is obstinately or unreasonably attached to a belief, opinion, or faction, especially one who is prejudiced against or antagonistic toward a person or people on the basis of their membership of a particular group." I'll leave that here to reason out what it represents...


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

It's not anger Rick. It's dismay. And you're assuming I mean all of them. No. I'm being very specific here. I'm specifically talking about the ones who aren't professional enough or just don't care enough to provide good service.

Anyone who calls themselves a professional should at least have a basic enough understanding of the sport to know how to use a spine chart, if not have a bucket of arrows available for a 5 minute "arrow fitting."

I don't understand why you insist on defending the shop owners who are lazy and inconsiderate, if that is in fact what you're doing. I am certain that in your parents shop, an archer would have received better service.

Look at the numbers of members here who know exactly what I'm talking about. 13 pages worth. Even I had no idea my soap box rant would uncover such a common problem.

Why anyone who is looking for the correct arrow should have to go to someone who does archery for a hobby instead of someone who does archery as a profession is beyond me. And yet in our sport, it's commonplace.


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## Hikari (May 15, 2021)

As someone that just started archery recently, it is difficult to navigate. Fortunately, Lancaster is a two hour drive from here, so I did not have an issue with getting reasonable help to start. Also, I am by profession an analyst and so know how to do research. But getting good information, whether from retailers or archers, is a bit of a daunting task. There tends to be a great deal of mythologizing on the archer's side of the equation, which makes it difficult to separate the wheat from the chaff. Arrow selection can be presented as a bit of a black art. What is also ironic, after explaining something, there is the inevitable advice to simply ask your dealer without stating what dealers might give good advice. Talk about chasing your tail.

This problem of inadequate knowledge in retail is pretty usual. If you want bad advice, go to Best Buy to get a camera. Or Home Depot to buy just about anything. This is always going to be an issue purely because of information asymmetry. As kind of the theme of this tread, solid return policies would certainly help. (But that also needs support from manufacturers that also need to take that hit.)


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Hikari said:


> As someone that just started archery recently, it is difficult to navigate. Fortunately, Lancaster is a two hour drive from here, so I did not have an issue with getting reasonable help to start. Also, I am by profession an analyst and so know how to do research. But getting good information, whether from retailers or archers, is a bit of a daunting task. There tends to be a great deal of mythologizing on the archer's side of the equation, which makes it difficult to separate the wheat from the chaff. Arrow selection can be presented as a bit of a black art. What is also ironic, after explaining something, there is the inevitable advice to simply ask your dealer without stating what dealers might give good advice. Talk about chasing your tail.
> 
> This problem of inadequate knowledge in retail is pretty usual. If you want bad advice, go to Best Buy to get a camera. Or Home Depot to buy just about anything. This is always going to be an issue purely because of information asymmetry. As kind of the theme of this tread, solid return policies would certainly help. (But that also needs support from manufacturers that also need to take that hit.)


Best Buy might sell cameras, but they don't call themselves a camera "pro shop." 

Home Depot might sell nails, but they don't call themselves "professional carpenters." 

Someone who goes to Wal-Mart to buy a bow or arrows is on their own and for their sake I hope they get lucky. But someone who goes to an actual archery "pro shop" should not just hope to get lucky. They should get professional service. Some do. A lot do not.

Again, golf pro shops have this figured out. If someone just wants to buy clubs, they can do that at Dicks or Golf Galaxy or even Wal-Mart. If someone wants to get fitted for clubs, there are certified club fitters.

Golf is so far ahead of archery in so many areas. Requiring certified instructors to pass an proficiency test is another one I've been pointing out for a decade or more now. But I digress...


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## Rick McKinney (Mar 4, 2008)

This horse is so dead I cannot even recognize it anymore. I think I have said enough and read enough.


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## 40n105w! (Dec 29, 2016)

I thought I had said all I have to say, but...... I've been in the bicycle business since the late 70's. We have the problem of being a low profit business and that means that by necessity we hire younger, less experienced workers. For the average person spending $300 > $500 we will do our absolute best to make sure we get them on something that fits and is properly tuned. BUT, for our customers who demand, and can afford more, we very much like the pro golf shops John mentioned, have other services available. A professional fit can take two + hours and involve trying many things, some of which we will have to change at a later date if it isn't right for that client the first time around. These fits are generally done by professional fitters.... people who have studied sports medicine, and have coached or raced themselves. 

I'm not sure I know where I'm going with this. John is right, at the very least a shop should find a good chart or app and make sure everybody knows how to read it or use it. Rick is also right, the level of service and parts availability is definitely tied to the fact that a shop can only have so much inventory and it has to be in things that turn over quickly. I don't know where the answer lies.

Someone (John?) just a while back bemoaned the fact that shooting a recurve is something that beginners do before getting a "real" bow. I think that attitude is at play here also. Two local shops are involved in recurve and bare bow pretty extensively but when I talk to a newbie they all say the same thing, they're saving for the latest compound. Life, huh? It's always entertaining.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Off-topic, but it always amuses me when people say that shooting a bow with accessories (or mechanics) that make it easier to shoot is the more advanced or serious form of archery. LOL That defies all logic.


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## Hikari (May 15, 2021)

limbwalker said:


> Best Buy might sell cameras, but they don't call themselves a camera "pro shop."
> 
> Home Depot might sell nails, but they don't call themselves "professional carpenters."


Best Buy: Camera Experience Shop with Advice from our Experts

Home Depot Pro Services


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Hikari said:


> Best Buy: Camera Experience Shop with Advice from our Experts
> 
> Home Depot Pro Services


Okay, if anyone goes to Best Buy and thinks they are actual camera experts, they deserve to be parted from their money. LOL


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## Stash (Jun 1, 2002)

I went to Home Depot and asked the guy for a nail I could use to hang a picture. They sold me this. Am I overspined?


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Stash said:


> I went to Home Depot and asked the guy for a nail I could use to hang a picture. They sold me this. Am I overspined?
> 
> View attachment 7464851


Looks like a 500 penny. Should be fine for your skill level.


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## Stash (Jun 1, 2002)

It’s for this:


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

I mean, if it's the smallest nails they have in stock, is that really their fault?


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## Stash (Jun 1, 2002)

Guy checked the manufacturer’s chart...


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## Viper1 (Aug 21, 2003)

Rick - 

I think this horse died about a dozen pages ago.
Apparently some folks here have some serious issues, and I don't think it's really about archery.
Wish I were kidding. 

Viper1 out.


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## Hikari (May 15, 2021)

Stash said:


> I went to Home Depot and asked the guy for a nail I could use to hang a picture. They sold me this. Am I overspined?
> 
> View attachment 7464851


Maybe under-pictured...


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

"TheBlindArcher" said:


> Not disagreeing that shops should do, or strive to do, better, but what does shooting a correct, or nearly correcgt, spine bare shaft show from a beginner? Don[t doubt it works because of how many of you more experienced archers/coaches do it, but what exactly are you looking for? I know I'm a very very small segment of even the beginner population, but how would a tech recognize the shooting difference between different spines for me versus the simple fact I can't aim without my tactile stand? Knowledge and spine charts aside, I'm just curious about the actual shooting of a variety of shafts... Perhaps there is a way for me to modify the normal process/results to my own [and other beginner VI archers] situation.


Kelly. Using your tactile actually gives you an advantage, for shooting recurve fletched arrows and recurve bareshafts. You are looking to get the bareshaft to hit inside your fletched arrow group. Fire 3 fletched arrows (recurve) or fire six fletched arrows recurve, using your tactile. Then, fire 2 or 3 bareshafts. ALL the same 500 spine out of your 20 limb limbs, at whatever your recurve draw length is.

So, cuz these 500 spine arrows (most likely from a "pro" shop) are going to be MASSIVELY too stiff for you, when you shoot your recurve bow with the tactile, your spotter will observe that every single bareshaft lands WAY LEFT of the fletched arrow group. SINCE you are right handed, this is a CLEAR sign, that even a "pro" shop can see. THIS means the 500 spine arrows do NOT work for a VI recurve archer, shooting 20# limbs, out of a recurve bow...and the 500 spine arrows do NOT work for non-VI recurve archers either, shooting 20# limbs.

In fact, I put together a combined spine chart for recurve arrows, with info from Easton, from limbwalker (his eponymous 2013 chart) and recommendations from Viper 1. Easton has recommendations for all kinds of pounds on the fingers, and all kinds of arrow lengths. limbwalker has recommendations for all kinds of pounds on the fingers and all kinds of arrow length. Viper one only includes recommendations for a 28-inch arrow, but for all kinds of pounds on the fingers.

The recommendations SOMETIMES agree, and most times, the recommendations vary WILDLY with the Easton recommendations. Easton tends towards the STIFF or WAY STIFFER side.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

"TheBlindArcher" said:


> Not disagreeing that shops should do, or strive to do, better, but what does shooting a correct, or nearly correcgt, spine bare shaft show from a beginner? Don[t doubt it works because of how many of you more experienced archers/coaches do it, but what exactly are you looking for? I know I'm a very very small segment of even the beginner population, but how would a tech recognize the shooting difference between different spines for me versus the simple fact I can't aim without my tactile stand? Knowledge and spine charts aside, I'm just curious about the actual shooting of a variety of shafts... Perhaps there is a way for me to modify the normal process/results to my own [and other beginner VI archers] situation.


So, Kelly. To simplify, when working with say 20# limbs, and an adult VI archer in RECURVE BAREBOW,
try some Easton 1716 aluminum arrows? Why this one? IT's the weakest spine Easton Aluminum arrow that accepts a field insert, so you can experiment with point weight, using field points. Makes it easier to find the correct field point weight up front, so bareshafts hit INSIDE the fletched group, for the VI archers you are working with.

Use full length Easton 1716 Platinum Plus. This is an 880 spine arrow, and has Easton Unibushings at the back end, and accepts those excellent G-nocks.

So, the Easton Platinum Plus 1716 arrow, at full length of 29-inches and a 100 grain or 125 grain field point will dynamically spine at about 930 spine...ROUGHLY.

Easton 1716 with a full length 29-inch shaft, and a 200 grain or 225 grain field point, will dynamically spine at about 1030 spine...ROUGHLY.

Easton 1716 with a full length 29-inch shaft, and a 300 grain field point, will dynamically spine at about 1130 spine...ROUGHLY.

So, the Easton Spine Chart (updated for 2021) recommends for 21 POUNDS on the fingers, and a 29-inch arrow,
GROUP T3. That means anywhere from a ACE 720 spine up to an ACC 3X-04 which spines at 830 spine,
or the Apollo 840, which is an all carbon 840 spine arrow,
or a variety of Easton aluminum arrows from 756 spine to 874 spine.

So, since my student just won barebow recurve cadet (state champion) I can GUARANTEE you that 720 spine to 874 spine will not work, for a barebow recurve archer, using point of aim, and especially will not work for a VI RECURVE shooter using a tactile.

1030 spine will work very nicely...meaning the 1716 with the 200 grain field point, or maybe a 225 grain field point or maybe the 175 grain field point. Just get a HEAVY field point test kit, and you will quickly and EASILY figure out what arrow works best for VI recurve archers just getting started in the sport.

Need LONGER than a 29-inch arrow?

Easton 1816 is 30-inches long, and spines at 756 and accepts field points. Will need to use heavier field points, from the 200 grain to 300 grain range, and might need to go up to the 25# limbs.


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## Arcus (Jul 7, 2005)

Viper1 said:


> I think this horse died about a dozen pages ago.


And yet you helped to keep it going.



Viper1 said:


> Apparently some folks here have some serious issues, and I don't think it's really about archery.


Oh, brother.


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## "TheBlindArcher" (Jan 27, 2015)

nuts&bolts said:


> So, Kelly. To simplify, when working with say 20# limbs, and an adult VI archer in RECURVE BAREBOW,
> try some Easton 1716 aluminum arrows? Why this one? IT's the weakest spine Easton Aluminum arrow that accepts a field insert, so you can experiment with point weight, using field points. Makes it easier to find the correct field point weight up front, so bareshafts hit INSIDE the fletched group, for the VI archers you are working with.
> 
> Use full length Easton 1716 Platinum Plus. This is an 880 spine arrow, and has Easton Unibushings at the back end, and accepts those excellent G-nocks.
> ...



Thanks Alan. I started with the 1716s with 125gr points; My talking scale hasn[t come in yet, but I'm shooting in the neighborhood of 30lbs- Wild guess, but I have 30lbs med limbs on a 27" riser turned down some, but my "still floating around" DL is over 29" I'm sure my anchor is goofy, but it didn[t take much over extension to draw my 28" compound shafts past my plunger, and if I put a bread tie marker on my 30" Genesis arrows the indicator is right at the end of the shaft at the end of my riser. 

In the process of building up some .900s at 29.5" [to nock groove] and I have a range of .165 glue in break off points giving me a weight range of 140gr to 70gr. The 1716s seemed to group a little tighter than the Genesis, but I didn't shoot bare shafts with either knowing I wouldn't really set up the bow until the .900s arrived and I worked through a basic feel for the bow.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

"TheBlindArcher" said:


> Thanks Alan. I started with the 1716s with 125gr points; My talking scale hasn[t come in yet, but I'm shooting in the neighborhood of 30lbs- Wild guess, but I have 30lbs med limbs on a 27" riser turned down some, but my "still floating around" DL is over 29" I'm sure my anchor is goofy, but it didn[t take much over extension to draw my 28" compound shafts past my plunger, and if I put a bread tie marker on my 30" Genesis arrows the indicator is right at the end of the shaft at the end of my riser.
> 
> In the process of building up some .900s at 29.5" [to nock groove] and I have a range of .165 glue in break off points giving me a weight range of 140gr to 70gr. The 1716s seemed to group a little tighter than the Genesis, but I didn't shoot bare shafts with either knowing I wouldn't really set up the bow until the .900s arrived and I worked through a basic feel for the bow.


Shooting bareshafts will tell you the whole story. Nice thing about screw in field points, so convenient to experiment with more weight or less weight. Just dial in the field point weight, that gives tightest fletched groups, gets bareshaft hitting inside the fletched group. You will get there.

I am going thru the same process with my cadet barebow recurve outdoor fita state champion. She has her sights set for FITA indoor competition now. Am doing the same process, trying to get a 18 meter point on aiming distance, teaching her the finer points for string walking (allowed for World Archery Competition) and trying to dial in a new Gillo GX barebow riser, will build a new custom string, need to tune the plunger, and will design some indoor arrows, specific to barebow shooting.


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## lcaillo (Jan 5, 2014)

Stash said:


> I went to Home Depot and asked the guy for a nail I could use to hang a picture. They sold me this. Am I overspined?
> 
> View attachment 7464851


That’s the only size they have in Texas. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

lcaillo said:


> That’s the only size they have in Texas.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


We call those toothpicks 'round here.


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## Stash (Jun 1, 2002)

Texans. Hah. You guys are so hung up on the size thing that you don’t know if you should claim you have the tallest or the shortest dwarves in the country.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Stash said:


> Texans. Hah. You guys are so hung up on the size thing that you don’t know if you should claim you have the tallest or the shortest dwarves in the country.


Don't be jealous. 

Funny story - I worked in Canada for a month (Sask to be more precise) and wandered into a bar one night in Aquadeo on Jackfish Lake. It was Texan-themed through and through. Huge Texas flags on the walls, George Strait on the jukebox and cowboy boots all around. Only thing un-Texan in the whole place was the ****ty Canadian beer. But otherwise I felt right at home.


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## Stash (Jun 1, 2002)

limbwalker said:


> Don't be jealous.


I promise you, that will never be something you’ll have to concern yourself about.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Stash said:


> I promise you, that will never be something you’ll have to concern yourself about.


Don't make promises you can't keep Stash.  

And what's with that beer anyway?


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## Stash (Jun 1, 2002)

Dunno. What was the brand?

We’re done with the arrows and stores thing, right?


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## TER (Jul 5, 2003)

limbwalker said:


> Don't make promises you can't keep Stash.
> 
> And what's with that beer anyway?


The large Canadian breweries were bought by the large US breweries and the beers were changed to US recipes.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Stash said:


> Dunno. What was the brand?
> 
> We’re done with the arrows and stores thing, right?


Yea, Rick kinda called that one.

As for the beer, I just remember a red and white can. Positively awful.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

TER said:


> The large Canadian breweries were bought by the large US breweries and the beers were changed to US recipes.


Well, they're gross. LOL

Sorry Canada.


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## Stash (Jun 1, 2002)

Red and white can. Hmm. Probably this.









Nothing good comes in red and white cans.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Stash said:


> Red and white can. Hmm. Probably this.
> View attachment 7465477
> 
> 
> ...


On this we can both agree.


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