# Never Fletch an arrow again!!!



## BillyRay (Oct 16, 2003)




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## Larebow (Feb 18, 2004)

Do they whistle?Not sure if I want to go to drop away so I can use them though.Are they legal for IBO


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## rembrandt (Jan 17, 2004)

Can you post a photo of this thing?


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## BowTech Dave (Feb 27, 2003)

They do not make any more sound than a fletched arrow. As far as IBO legal, I'm not sure. If you are shooting 3D's you may have a hard time because if the Ring Wing hogging up the spot. For spot shooting and hunting this is the best thing going. Hope this answers your question.

Dave


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## CWG (Nov 20, 2003)

AAAAAAAARRRGH its a turbo clone!


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## BowTech Dave (Feb 27, 2003)

*Photo!*

I will try and see if it works. I am not sure why I have trouble with getting images up. Here goes...


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## archerdad (Oct 17, 2002)

will they come off if you get a pass through shot?


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## BowTech Dave (Feb 27, 2003)

*turbo clone???*



CWG said:


> *AAAAAAAARRRGH its a turbo clone! *


I knew someone would say something like that. I don't know much about the Turbo and definately can't form an honest opinion having never shot them before. I just know that the Starr Flight FOB's do what they claim and more.


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## archerdad (Oct 17, 2002)

duh says so in the ad....
 
geez i need some sleep lol


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## BowTech Dave (Feb 27, 2003)

*Pass Throughs!*



archerdad said:


> *will they come off if you get a pass through shot? *


That's the beauty of these things... They do pop off, allowing the arrow to pass through with no fletchings on them to slow them down. Plus... When they do pop off, they mark the spot of the hit, making it easier to find the exact spot the animal was standing.


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## Larebow (Feb 18, 2004)

not sure I like it yet


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## BowTech Dave (Feb 27, 2003)

That's alright! I have my 2 1/2 year old daughter asleep on my lap as I am typing this. Ohh to be young again!!!


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## BowTech Dave (Feb 27, 2003)

Larebow said:


> *not sure I like it yet *


I was leary as well! All I can say is try it! I did and I love they way they make my broadheads fly. $10 a 1/2 dozen isn't much just to try them out! I can't wait to try them out on the real thing.


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## MerlinApexDylan (Oct 14, 2002)

Turbo's will shoot through a whisker bisquit. I believe thats the advantage they have over the FOB's.

Plus I'm hoping that Team Turbo Nock come up with a set up suitable for Olympic shooting or small diametre shafts.

Not sure if these FOBs would be.


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## Larebow (Feb 18, 2004)

Why not just a twisted nock without the hard plastic fins and you could put what ever fletch on you wanted?


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## Da'Rook (Dec 19, 2003)

The fins on the TurboNocks match the twist of the nock. You could spend hours with your fletching jig, and not tune the fletching to the nock as well as what's already built in.

As for the FOBs, they may work, but they don't integrate a twisted nock like Turbos do. The Turbos are designed to start spinning as they come off the string, not having to wait for wind resistance on the vanes to start them spinning.


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## 442fps (Dec 23, 2003)

10 $ for 6 pieces , that's even too expensive to test it .Have you ever shot a FITA field round ? 4 Archers in one group , and imagine 12 arrows in a circle of maybe 2 inches ?


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## bowcop (Jan 18, 2003)

I would have to revamp my anchor point to accomidate these things. I put an arrow on my string and came to full draw and peeked in the bathroom mirror (made my wife VERY nervous LOL) and I decided I would have to anchor below my chin to shoot these. And that is just not comfortable for me. Great idea though!

If they could come up with one that you could slide up the shaft a bit, and hold it in place with a bit of tension or some other way that would hold it in place and still allow a pass thru I would be sold!


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## GreggWNY (Sep 6, 2002)

I once attached 3 drinking straws cut to 2" at a slight offset on some arrows. Honest to goodness they shot absolutly tight little groups out to 60 yards! You never know what will work.


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## CWG (Nov 20, 2003)

CWG prediction 2004:
This year we will see a variety of "nock replacement" stabilizers like this and the turbo. 
I've got no problem with it. I like the idea. But the hoop wont pass thru a biscuit or containment for sure. 
I think ALL those are too expensive for what it costs to make, materials etc. I dont mind paying for intellectual property....to a point.


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## BowTech Dave (Feb 27, 2003)

I thought the same thing when I first got the mine, but I found out with my anchor point that I didn't have to change at all! I only felt a small part of the FOB on my face! It didn't effect my accuracy at all!

Also, I know that Fall-Away-Rests aren't for everyone, and if you don't shoot one you can't use this product! That is the down side to this! There are many upsides though... If you do shoot a Fall-Away you can defintely get away with a lot more by shooting the FOB. It will give you great accuracy with those LARGE broadheads. This means that you don't have to shoot slower speeds to get good broadhead flight. You can continue to shoot those higher speeds and still shoot those LARGE broadheads.

As for the cost... Well, it may seem a little high right now, but as with any new company there has to be a starting point for pricing. If the product takes off, I am sure the price will go down a bit! You never can tell!

Turbo Nocks may be great for some people! I am not saying anything bad about them... I never had a chance to try them! Paul gave me some to try and I posted my review on them. They are a great product and I can see them taking the FOB's to a new level.

A lot of people do not like change, and that is understandable, but if you never try anything new, how can you say you don't like it? Give it a try! I did and I think they are AWESOME!


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## Todd in NY (May 23, 2003)

I looked at their website. Definetly worth a try. 

Anyone know how much these things weigh????

todd


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## BowTech Dave (Feb 27, 2003)

Todd in NY said:


> *I looked at their website. Definetly worth a try.
> 
> Anyone know how much these things weigh????
> 
> todd *


I will get ahold of Paul and post a reply when I find out!


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## Paul Morris (Mar 1, 2004)

Thanks for the questions and comments. All feedback helps.

The 1.0 FOBs are 26 grains
1.25 FOBs are 39 grains.

Glad to answer any questions

Paul Morris
StarrFlight


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## arrowwrecker (Jul 25, 2003)

*i've got a question..*

the reason they stabilize a broadhead better is because of the extra resistance...how will this effect downrange energy??
seems to me it would quickly slow the arrow..


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## Paul Morris (Mar 1, 2004)

The FOB has slightly less drag (by design) compared to standard 4” vanes. However, when sailing broadheads or in cross wind, speed is improved over fletching and most importantly accuracy. That is because when flying broadheads or in cross wind, conventional vanes are less efficient and tend to fold and flutter (loss of energy and increase in drag). FOBs are semi-rigid and are a more aerodynamic surface. Also the FOB is only ½” long so cross wind effected area is reduced by about 70% which reduces tail walk substantially. Yes, the FOB produces a lot more force, but only when the arrow leaves perfect flight. 

That's the secret of the ring wing. Along with a planning surface to push the arrow back in true flight when the back of the arrow tries to catch the front, it also generates lift because it is an airfoil (wing). This force is not produced with any other fletching system. It adds a third component of flight. Drag, spin +now there is 360 degrees of lift. Very significant at 200mph! This lift does not increase drag and only acts to stabilize. Its like an air gyro.


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## Todd in NY (May 23, 2003)

Will the starrflight product work with Carbon Express CX200's?? I didn't see this shaft listed on the web site.

thanks


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## BowTech Dave (Feb 27, 2003)

Todd in NY said:


> *Will the starrflight product work with Carbon Express CX200's?? I didn't see this shaft listed on the web site.
> 
> thanks *


Yes they will work on CX200's. They are made for Carbon arrows with Internal Component System (ICS). You'll like 'em!


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## Dusty Britches (Feb 10, 2003)

What's next?


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## Bo Hunter (Apr 15, 2003)

Paul,
You say it is "semi-rigid", if you can (I assume since its on the market, patents are applied for), please tell us what it is made of. I actually envisioned a very hard plastic ring. If thats not the case, what could it be compared to, "feel" wise?

Looks like a great idea to me, but only for individual spots (5 spot, 3 spot targets), and hunting....

Bo


Just imagine! These mated with Crimson Talons! With all those airfoils, it might be the next mode of transportation!

Paul - it was a joke, wasn't lumping your product with those...


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## BowTech Dave (Feb 27, 2003)

Bo Hunter said:


> *Paul,
> You say it is "semi-rigid", if you can (I assume since its on the market, patents are applied for), please tell us what it is made of. I actually envisioned a very hard plastic ring. If thats not the case, what could it be compared to, "feel" wise?
> 
> Looks like a great idea to me, but only for individual spots (5 spot, 3 spot targets), and hunting....
> ...


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## cassellm (Feb 13, 2004)

*Concurr*

I watched Bowtech Dave shoot them. They fly awseome and are quiet. Excellent arrow flight and are accurate. How they do on a larger profile head would be the test and I'm sure he and I will do just that. The point being made is that they do what they are designed to do, and quite well.


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## pig sticker (Aug 17, 2003)

What a great idea,Brilliant and simple.The idea is much better than Turbo nocks all be it you are using a drop away. get then down to $9.99 msrp a bakers dozen and I think you have something. How can you justify any more? i imagine you can slide these things a couple inches above the nock?


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## bowcop (Jan 18, 2003)

pig sticker said:


> * i imagine you can slide these things a couple inches above the nock? *


I would like to know this one too!


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## Todd in NY (May 23, 2003)

I ordered a 6 pack yesterday. Can't wait to try them out!

They probably won't paper tune very well though


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## BowTech Dave (Feb 27, 2003)

Todd in NY said:


> *I ordered a 6 pack yesterday. Can't wait to try them out!
> 
> They probably won't paper tune very well though   *


Todd,

You can paper tune the FOB's very well. Here is the basic process. 

Paper tuning is quite simple. Pop of the FOB, and bare shaft paper tune. Or use an old fletch arrow then tune to the FOB if necessary.


Hope this helps?

Dave


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## BowTech Dave (Feb 27, 2003)

pig sticker said:


> *What a great idea,Brilliant and simple.The idea is much better than Turbo nocks all be it you are using a drop away. get then down to $9.99 msrp a bakers dozen and I think you have something. How can you justify any more? i imagine you can slide these things a couple inches above the nock? *


Pig Sticker,

Could you please explain a little more about what you mean about sliding them up a couple inches above the nock? I will take a picture of them for you with a better view of how they attach! It will have to wait until I get home though!

I'll get back to you soon!

Dave


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## pig sticker (Aug 17, 2003)

just like placement of fletching,you can glue them on 1/2" above the nock or you can glue them on 2" above the nock. Do you have to place this unit just above the nock,or can it be slid forward on the shaft a couple inches?


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## BowTech Dave (Feb 27, 2003)

pig sticker said:


> *just like placement of fletching,you can glue them on 1/2" above the nock or you can glue them on 2" above the nock. Do you have to place this unit just above the nock,or can it be slid forward on the shaft a couple inches? *


Pig Sticker,

The FOB's slide onto the end of the shaft. There is a lip on the FOB preventing it from moving down. The nock then slips throught the FOB into the Shaft! They are fixed onto the aft end of the arrow.

Hope this helps!

Dave


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## pig sticker (Aug 17, 2003)

Thats what i was afraid of. Certain anchoring styles may interfere with this system also?


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## jim p (Oct 29, 2003)

I don't have an FOB to look at but I am guessing that you could trim out the shoulder on the back of the FOB and then you could slide it up the shaft. You might then need to use a spacer like a short piece of soda straw to keep the Fob from sliding back when fired. If you don't need it to pop off with a pass through you might put a drop of glue on it to hold it in place.


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## BowTech Dave (Feb 27, 2003)

I wrote earlier about the anchor point. For me personally, I found that there was no difference in my anchor. All I can say is give them a try! You might be suprised.


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## BowTech Dave (Feb 27, 2003)

jim p said:


> *I don't have an FOB to look at but I am guessing that you could trim out the shoulder on the back of the FOB and then you could slide it up the shaft. You might then need to use a spacer like a short piece of soda straw to keep the Fob from sliding back when fired. If you don't need it to pop off with a pass through you might put a drop of glue on it to hold it in place. *


Not sure why you would not want it to pop off during a pass thru. Once the Broadhead enters the animal and the shaft starts sliding through, you won't have to worry about the FOB stopping the arrow inside like you sometimes have fletching do. The arrow will have less drag associated with it.

Plus, when it does pop off, it is a great indication of where the animal was standing at the time of the shot. Takes the guess work out by showing you right where it was.

Check out their website!

http://www.starrflight.com


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## stodr (Sep 4, 2002)

Dave I tried to order it but the pay pal would not go through. I don't know where the problem is I have used paypal numerous times.

Also I film alot. He needs to get brighter colors.


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## BowTech Dave (Feb 27, 2003)

I will get ahold of Paul, or you can call him at the number listed at the site. Either way I will get ahold of him as soon as I can.

Thanks


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## Todd in NY (May 23, 2003)

Got my FOB's today!! No problems installing them on my Carbon Express CX200's.

My interest is piqued with these and I'm anxious to try them out. 

In addition to my new FOB's, I'm in the process of setting up my new XTec. I'll get it ready tonight and sight it in ( with 4 inch vanes) tomorrow. 

After I get it sighted in I'll try the FOB's. I'm also going to shoot them through an old broadhead target that I know the arrows will pass thru to see if how easy the FOB's come off.

Should be fun!!


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## deadx (Aug 6, 2002)

Will one size fit several different sized arrow shafts, say shafts differing by .010 inch in diameter ? For instance the Easton ACC 3-49 @0.294 dia. up to the Carbon Tech Rhino45/[email protected] dia.Those two different shafts are .010 inch different in size. Is it just one size for one arrow size only or do they have sizes to fit all arrow shaft sizes ? This looks exactly like a design I drew up 3 years ago, shortly before I started testing the Turbo Nocks for Nick Snook.


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## Brown Hornet (Aug 8, 2002)

I think I will stick with fletching my arrows. 

DeadX I believe I read earlier that they only fit a certain size shaft. Like the GT 5575 or something around that size. but don't quote me on that.


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## BowTech Dave (Feb 27, 2003)

stodr said:


> *Dave I tried to order it but the pay pal would not go through. I don't know where the problem is I have used paypal numerous times.
> 
> Also I film alot. He needs to get brighter colors. *


stodr,

I spoke to Paul about the PayPal problem. He says it has been working, but he would speak with his IT guy and see what is up. If you try it again tomorrow and it doesn't work, I would go ahead and call them. I am sure they can help you out on the phone.

Here is the number just in case.

1-888-488-4712


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## BowTech Dave (Feb 27, 2003)

Brown Hornet said:


> *I think I will stick with fletching my arrows.
> 
> Brown Hornet,
> 
> I can understand the scepticism, but if you get a chance, you really ought to try them. They work great for Spots and best of all for hunting. Let me know if you ever give them a try.*


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## jim p (Oct 29, 2003)

I agree that it is a good idea for them to pop off with a pass through. A spot shooter might not want or need this feature and therefore could secure it to the shaft. 

I e-mailed Paul and he asked me a question which maybe someone can answer. Can finger shooters use drop away rest?


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## 442fps (Dec 23, 2003)

I agree to Brown Hornet , i stay with my feathers and vanes .
Reasons : 1 - i definately must change my anchor point 
2 - the weight of them , 26 grain small , 39 grain big diam . compared to 8 grains for my 3D duravanes on the Target , and 10 grains for my 4.75 inch feathers on the hunting shafts .
This additional weight at the back end changes the FOC and the dynamic spine of the shafts .
3 - the price . 10 $ for 6 compared to less than 10 $ for a pack of 100 plastic vanes or around 15 $ for a pack of 50 feathers ?
4 - the most imortant reason for me is the must to use a dropaway rest .

I dont want to talk bad about new products , but with the facts above i prefer to save this money for some beers .


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## BowTech Dave (Feb 27, 2003)

442fps said:


> *I agree to Brown Hornet , i stay with my feathers and vanes .
> Reasons : 1 - i definately must change my anchor point
> 2 - the weight of them , 26 grain small , 39 grain big diam . compared to 8 grains for my 3D duravanes on the Target , and 10 grains for my 4.75 inch feathers on the hunting shafts .
> This additional weight at the back end changes the FOC and the dynamic spine of the shafts .
> ...


Anchor point change? Have you tried them yet? The only thing I feel is a FOB barely touching my face. It doesn't mess with the accuracy at all.

Which vanes are you using for the 3D Duravanes? , 2, or 3" Also, the feathers, is that 10 grains each? If you add each component and the glue used you are getting close to the same weight of the FOB's or even exceeding them.

As for the price, yes it may cheaper at this point in time to buy the vanes, but the time and money save by not having to fletch the arrow is worth it to me. You just put it on and you're ready to go.

As far as the drop away, well not everyone will shoot a drop away. Those who do will be able to enjoy its' many benifits. Just a thought!

I know you arent knocking them, and as for extra money for beer, I can see where that might take some precidence.

Good shooting!!


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## Paul Morris (Mar 1, 2004)

re" Cost/Durability

Aside from the improved broadhead flight benefits, arrow storage convienance , and reduced cross wind drift. Roving or stump shooting is where the FOB cranks over fletch for durability. I rove about once a week here in the desert which is very tough on vanes. I now use the same FOB over and over again. Even after 20 or more pass through shots, the FOB just pops off for re-use. I loose more than I break-honest. I have even broken arrows before the FOB is replaced. There is no doubt that for me, FOBs are less expense. I loose and break less arrows (better accuracy) and as Dave mentioned, the time and hassle of fletching an arrow. What is your time worth?

If you take an arrow to the shop they will charge somewhere between $2-$4 to clean and apply new vanes. If you go to some of the high tech vanes, this cost goes way up. Shoot one of these through a dead stump or target, and you just trashed them. The FOB pops off for reuse.
In my case the FOBs out last vanes 10 to 1. Every product will find it's place. For many, using both vanes and FOBs depending on the application is the best solution.

Thanks 
Paul


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## BowTech Dave (Feb 27, 2003)

deadx said:


> *Will one size fit several different sized arrow shafts, say shafts differing by .010 inch in diameter ? For instance the Easton ACC 3-49 @0.294 dia. up to the Carbon Tech Rhino45/[email protected] dia.Those two different shafts are .010 inch different in size. Is it just one size for one arrow size only or do they have sizes to fit all arrow shaft sizes ? This looks exactly like a design I drew up 3 years ago, shortly before I started testing the Turbo Nocks for Nick Snook. *


deadx,

I finally got some info back on the arrow shaft sizes. Sorry it took so long to post. I hope the following helps explain things a bit more.

The ACC's will not work as they use a uni-bushing and G-Nocks. We will make adapters or specialty FOBs soon as market develops.

Looks like the Carbon Tech Rhino uses a ICS nock so FOBs would work great!

ICS carbon arrows under (0.310 dia will work). Because the FOB is held in place by the press nock, a tight fit to the shaft diameter is not required. Thus, one size fits all. (ICS and super swage that is) ICS arrows range from about 0.275 to 0.310 diameter. 

Original Idea was sparked spring 1999 we have been actively working on project for three years now.

Dave


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## BowTech Dave (Feb 27, 2003)

*This Just in from the Outback*

The word is out! We are in the Outback!!!

G'Day,
Things are going off here.
My fingers are numb from typing, and answering the Phone.

The word is out FOBs give you better scores on the range.
FOBs let you shoot huge Broadheads and hit what you aim at.
I am finding now a 22% gain at 3m FPS speeds from the FOBs.

(the noise indoors is like a whirling noise, really does stand out inside I however like it, even with leading edge taken to knife edge noise there, from the wings would be my guess, but only at a certain point down range must be at a certain frequency/ speed, ! to 25m nothing, then it builds from there but not bad at all).

Bill


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## 442fps (Dec 23, 2003)

BowTechDave :
You should do a little homework if you want to talk about technical facts .Look to the following :

Anchor point change? Have you tried them yet? The only thing I feel is a FOB barely touching my face. It doesn't mess with the accuracy at all.
The Answer : I made some "rings" out of plywood , 0.5 inch long , and diameters from 0.5 inch up to 1.25 inch , it touches the face and it's much more critical when i wear my hunting jacket and face mask etc.....This is a very important factor for accuracy , but i don't know what accuracy means for you ?

Which vanes are you using for the 3D Duravanes? , 2, or 3" Also, the feathers, is that 10 grains each? If you add each component and the glue used you are getting close to the same weight of the FOB's or even exceeding them.
The Answer : For target archery i use 1.8 inch Duravanes , their weight is exactly 8.8 grain for three of them .
The feathers that i use on my hunting arrows are 4.75 inch Gateway or Trueflight , doesn't matter , their weight is 10.2 grain for three of them .So even with the glue i'm far far away from the weight of the FOB's and you also wrote in another post about gluing the FOB's onto the shaft. And Spin Wings are even much lighter than my plastic vanes !

As far as the drop away, well not everyone will shoot a drop away. Those who do will be able to enjoy its' many benifits. Just a thought!
The Answer : I'm a target archer and bowhunter , never in my life it was neccessary for me to use a dropaway , my hunting arrows are fletched right helical , as much as possible , i don't have problems with clearance or whatever else . I can tune a bow with a standard rest ! I can't see o n e Advantage of a dropaway ! 

As for the price, yes it may cheaper at this point in time to buy the vanes, but the time and money save by not having to fletch the arrow is worth it to me. You just put it on and you're ready to go.
The Answer : Like i wrote in my first post : imagine 12 arrows in a circle of 3 inches ore smaller. That's nothing special in FITA Field archery on these targets on short distances , will you really tell me that the FOB's are cheaper  

the noise indoors is like a whirling noise 
Question : Everybody is looking for bowhuntig equipment that is very quiet , and you will sell me something noisy ????

Paper tuning is quite simple. Pop of the FOB, and bare shaft paper tune. Or use an old fletch arrow then tune to the FOB if necessary.
Thats incrediable , do you know something about spine , can you imagine how a spine will change from a raw shaft to a shaft with this heavy thing at the nock end .

Sorry , nothing personal against you , enjoy the shooting with you plastic poppers , but please , stop us telling such stuff .


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## Todd in NY (May 23, 2003)

I got a package of 1" black FOB's on Friday.

Setup:
Hoyt XTec
Muzzy ZE rest
Carbon Express CX200 and XX78 Super Slam Select (2213's)
100 gr field point.

Saturday I went to the indoor range (weather problems) and shot both, my helical 3 fletch (3.6" ~23gr total) and the FOB's (26 gr).

Out to 30 yards the FOB's and the fletched arrows grouped together. I started with 6 FOB's and ended the session with 4. I was very impressed with their consistancy. I could not shoot at the same spot with the FOB's.

Today I got outside. Two sessions, probably 150 arrows total. I shot between 20 and 50 yards. Here is what I found.

Without fail the FOB's grouped with each other and at least as good as the fletched arrows at all distances.

From 20 to 35 yards the 26 grain FOB's grouped with the 23 grain helical fleched arrows.

From 36 to 50 yards the FOB's grouped about 1.5" low as compared to the fletched arrows at 40 yards. FOB's grouped about 2" low at 50 yards as compared to the fletched arrows. Absolutely no differences in windage. I lost 2 more FOB's at 50 yards by shooting at the same spot. 

I'm not sure why the impact points are changing at the longer distances. I can hear the FOB's during flight so I'm guessing the differences in flight dynamics are the cause. I'm not suggesting its better or worse, just different. 

I really like these things!

I find myself wondering if I should compare the FOB's and the fletched arrows. I guess I have to have something to compare them to and with only 3 grains difference I'll use the fletched arrows for my baseline data. 

Just for fun I put an FOB on an XX78 Super Slam Select (super swage) and let'er fly. Seemed to work fine. I'll have to go through the same process as above. XX78 SSS nocks don't pop off as easily as carbon shaft nocks unless some mods are made.

I anxious to test the FOB's with fixed blade and mechanical broadheads. 

Initial conclusions: I'm ordering more!!!


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## Da'Rook (Dec 19, 2003)

Dave, you may want to take Duravanes off your list of sponsors in your sig...

They probably wouldn't be too happy with you telling people to stop fletching their arrows.


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## BillyRay (Oct 16, 2003)

Da'Rook said:


> *Dave, you may want to take Duravanes off your list of sponsors in your sig...
> 
> They probably wouldn't be too happy with you telling people to stop fletching their arrows. *


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## BowTech Dave (Feb 27, 2003)

Da'Rook said:


> *Dave, you may want to take Duravanes off your list of sponsors in your sig...
> 
> They probably wouldn't be too happy with you telling people to stop fletching their arrows. *


I am in no way saying to stop fletching vanes. If you read this post carefully, you would see I am trying to help a friend out. I do shoot Duravanes For 3D, as the FOB probably would not be accepted in 3D target archery due to the fact that if you hit an ASA 12 it would not allow anyone else in.

I also shoot the FOB, as I have found it to be a great tool for controlling broadhead flight. Nuff said...


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## BowTech Dave (Feb 27, 2003)

*Never Fletch an arrow again*

To all who may be wondering, I realize the thread is titled "Never Fletch an arrow again!!!" This is the slogan Paul came up with and I felt it was appropriate for this thread. I also understand that I have Duravanes listed as a sponsor. I posted this thread as a promise to Paul Morris, the inventor of FOBs, that I would do a review on his FOB's. 

I am sure as you read through this thread you could easily get confused as to where my loyalties are. Well, I believe Paul has a great product and like many other products, there are some that are suited better for certain things. I feel we owe it to the animals we hunt to shoot a setup that will provide the most humane kills. To me this means controlling broadhead flight. While some people I know shoot their broadhead arrows the a day or even a week before they go hunting and then wonder why they aren't flying right, I choose to shoot my broadheads throughout the year. With that said, the FOB's look to be a great product for helping people tune their broadheads better and faster. Am I saying my Duravanes do not work for this task? No, my 4" work fine, but I take great pride in tuning my equipment and I do it very well. I am merely saying that the FOB's are a great alternative for people who find it difficult to tune their broadheads with conventional fletchings.

I will continue to shoot Duravanes for 3D tournaments, as they perform great for me on the range. And I never said I was going to stop using the 4" for hunting, but I am going to give the FOBs a try when I go out next. I feel I owe myself as well as the archery community an honest review of this product. As far as posting to this site about the FOB's I will continue to answer any questions I can. If helping a friend out in a situation like this is wrong I make no appoligies. If someone sees this as a someone trying to get rid of every vane and feather on the planet to shoot nothing but FOB's you have missed the point. Paul invented this, as I said before, to make it easier on him and his friends when they are out hunting and "Stump Shooting". He chose to share this great product with you the public. 

This will be the last time I post pertaining to this subject. If you have something to say about the product then by all means say it, good or bad. If all you have is time to worry about who my sponsors are then don't bother. My sponsors know where my loyalties are. That is all that matters to me.

That is all!!!


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## BowTech Dave (Feb 27, 2003)

*442fps*

442fps,

Thanks for your comments. Though you may think you have it figured out I beg to differ. I did my research based on what I was given in your previous post, I checked out some info. Had you said you were shooting 1.8" Duravanes I would have had more to go on.

Cutting plywood out and making your own makeshift rings? Well I can tell you have a lot of time on your hands and fletching arrows is not something you mind doing. How about using a spiked ring or star washer as a prototype to prove how the FOB will not work? Slamming a product without having seen the thing is a bit un-professional. The fact is that 95% do not have an issue. If your hunting draw length is too long for you, that accounts for the 5%. Anyone with a normal hunting anchor point does just fine.

Consider the following...

Current FOB design is primarily for hunting and stump shooting. Most people use plastic vanes ranging in weight from 20-40 grains plus the glue. (See below info taken from a manufactures web site). Fob Weight of 26 grain and 39 grains is right there. The FOB is just the first of unlimited design possibilities. Smaller light weight FOBs for target, exotics designs etc... Current FOB is designed to shoot a broadhead flatter with more accuracy and with ness noise than a conventional fletch- that is (4-5" plastic).


FROM MANF. WEB SITE

Absolutely! Even more so.. High performance set ups mean more energy, higher forces and lower flight times. Stability and solid guidance are even more important. Any errors or imperfections in equipment or form are magnified. Less time is available for your guidance system to do its job. 
Besides, if you want high performance, why bog down your arrow with 40 grains of useless mass from plastic vanes? 
However, for many archers - feathers offer some enticing advantages as well. Feathers are very light. Three 4" Gateway Feathers weigh about 9 grains - while 3 equal sized vanes weigh nearly 25 grains.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Flex Fletch Vanes 

- Exhibit superior healing properties beyond any other vane on the market. Excellent memory! None better!
- Low Profile, Narrow Base
Flex Fletch Vanes 418(4.4") Wt-10.8gr. 100pk $28.99
- Flex Fletch Vanes 300(2.99") Wt-9.26gr. 100pk $26.99
- Flex Fletch Vanes 250(2.52") Wt-6.1gr. 100pk $24.99

Drop aways are not for everyone, I wouldn't be telling the truth if I said they were. You are one of the fortunate FEW who do not have a problem with Helical vanes hitting their rest. Good for you! Drop aways are for much more than shooting Helicals anyhow. They are way more forgiving than any other rest design, not to mention quieter than most fixed position rests. QUIET means to me just that... QUIET. 

Noise... 

In flight the FOBs generally make less noise. The worse the conditions or the bigger the broadhead , the FOB makes less noise than a fletch. There is no flutter with FOBs. They do make noise which is more of a whurrsh sound. Indoors people say FOBs are louder than fletching. But outside everyone agrees that when shooting broadheads, FOBs make less noise the Fletching. We have harvested critters out to about 55 yards. Never had issued with noise. In addition, the noise you do hear is coming off the back of the FOB. Stand downrange and listen to it travel by, frontal noise (what the deer hears) appears to us, less than fletching.

Tuning...

I would add that bare shaft tuning is just that-bare shaft tuning. Adding small washers to the nock to match your vane/FOB weight will assure spine match to what you are shooting-FOBs or Vanes. (although I never found this to be necessary) Or you can use a fletched arrow to paper tune, then tweak the tuning using FOBs (Only if required).

442fps, 

I do welcome your comments, but please do not lecture me on technical mumbo jumbo... I understand full well there are several factors that go into shooting an arrow. Bottom line is, each person has to decide for themselves what setup is best for them. If everyone agreed all the time, what fun would that be? A world without new ideas, would be boring. 
The FOB was imagined by a person who lives to hunt, and tearing up fletchings while stump shooting and then having to repair a couple dozen at a time was not an option for Paul. His idea made it easy for him keep on shooting without skipping a beat.
HIS TIME IS VERY IMPORTANT to him. He chose to share his invention with everyone, and while you will probably never even try one, you will probably continue to speak of that which you do not know!
Thanks again!


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## Brown Hornet (Aug 8, 2002)

Dave when you fletch arrows do you set there and watch them dry???? I don't it doesn't take that much time and energy or cost alot either. A bag of 100 Fflex Fletch cost me about $15. That is 33 arrows I can flecth vs. $20 to complete 12 with the FOB. Winner Flex Fletch. A tube of glue will last me about a year and only cost about $4 with tax. I will start fletching arrows and play PS2 or something. Heck I fletched a doz arrows the other night while I was playing Metal Gear. Heck you can buy a multi fletcher and knock out a doz in an hour or buy 2 of them and do a doz in 1/2 hour. LOL 

I shoot 187 and smaller Flex Fletch that is 9 grains max for all three vanes before glue vs. 23 grains for the light FOB's. Winner Flex Fletch. By the way glue doesn't weigh that much my whole arrows are always within a couple grains of the #'s I get when adding up finished arrow weight on a calculator without including glue. So the glue isn't an issue. 

There isn't a drop away out there that is as good as a Pro Tuner IMHO. So I would have to choose Flex Fletch again.

As far as durability goes. I would go broke shooting FOB's. If they shoot that good I would bust my $10 worth in the first few groups. 

The FOB's will mess your FOC all up putting that much weight back there is going to change things big time. Plus if you go to a heavier tip to offset you are going to end up with an arrow that is about 50 grains heavier then you just messed your speed all up.


As for acuracy I shoot Magnocks so they take all the paradox out of my arrow so I have incredible broadhead and field point flight and groups. 

Bottom line give them a try if you like but I won't be changing. My vanes don't flutter and get destroyed so there is no reason to change for me. I already shoot very tight groups. Can't get much tighter than pulling 3,4 or 5 arrows at once. Plus it doesn't take that much energy or time to fletch up some arrows. That is part of the beauty of archery. Fletching arrows.

I am not trying to knock or bash FOB's just giving my reasons for not wanting to try them or seeing a need to.


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## BowTech Dave (Feb 27, 2003)

Brown Hornet,

Thanks for your honesty. Like I have said previously... The FOB isn't going to be for everyone, but it will help a lot of people who choose to shoot it. The beauty about this sport is that there are so many options out there for people to try. 

So you are alright in my book for knowing what you want and why you want it. For me, It doesn't take me very long to fletch arrows, but it takes even less time to pop on an FOB.

Thanks again, and I know you weren't bashing the product. I am sure the Mag-nock is an awesome product as well. The FOB is just another option for those who choose to try it.

Shoot Straight,
Dave


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## Magnockman (Jun 13, 2002)

*Interesting concept*

Dave,
Let me be among the first to wish you and Paul the best of luck. I know better than anyone how hard it is to get people to open up their minds and imagine “what if it really works” and decide to give it a try. Brown Hornet was one of my most skeptical customers once and rightly so, the Magnock system is a hard one to swallow especially picky ones like him.  But if it proves down the line as something that improves accuracy you couldn’t have a better ally than him. One thing I like right off is since you can use it with conventional pinch nocks then it must be compatible with the Magnock system. If so it’s possible that the two systems may be able to enhance each other. 

A couple of questions comes to mind: From the pictures I can’t tell if the leading edges of the FOB are straight cut or rounded and does the ring and blades have a airfoil design? How many degrees of a helical offset does it have and what size in comparison to conventional vanes would be the equivalent?

BTW— I PM’ed Paul Morris last week and he hasn’t read it yet.

Chris


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## BowTech Dave (Feb 27, 2003)

*Re: Interesting concept*



Magnockman said:


> *Dave,
> Let me be among the first to wish you and Paul the best of luck. I know better than anyone how hard it is to get people to open up their minds and imagine “what if it really works” and decide to give it a try. ]
> 
> Magnockman,
> ...


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## pig sticker (Aug 17, 2003)

My personal opinion is the price point. For people to try them ,you have to come off that price 10.00 for 6 very simple molded plastic pieces.Get them down to about 1/2 that,more people will try them. If they catch on,it will also have the benefit of keeping drop away rests popular. Its a gamble I think the Mfgr. should take.Try and make it on volume. Get a few good local club 3D shooters in various parts of the country start shooting them. It will more than likely get more tinkerers to try them. Ive got a Bitz and can get enough AAE vanes to do doz. arrows for $3 or 4.00 plus maybe 1 back for glue. I wouldnt consider these things for more than 10.00 a doz.


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## Brown Hornet (Aug 8, 2002)

Another thing is there are alot of people that don't shoot the size arrow needed for these arrows. I don't and proabably never will again. I shoot 2314's and larger for indoors. For 3D I am shooting 2314 size shafts (CT Hippos) but also shoot ACC's. For Hunting I prefer ACC's as well. So I have no arrows for them.

Just a question for those that have tryed them. Did you adjust your arrow for them? By that I mean did you add point weight? If you aren't shooting 4"+ vanes you should have added point weight to balance them out. If you are shooting 3" or smaller vanes you would more than likely need to add around 20-25 grains in point weight to put your FOC back to where it was. but I know if I added all that weight to my shaft I would have to go down to the next size shaft to get a proper spine match. Not to mention that I just added around 50-75 grains to my arrow weight. So know I also lost a ton of speed. IMHO if you don't make these adjustments your groups are going to open up. Just my thoughts.


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## Paul Morris (Mar 1, 2004)

Please allow me to give a brief history of the FOB and the intended use:

We stump shoot in the desert and trash a lot of fletches (usually 2 or 3 arrows a shoot). Sitting on the couch one day, dreading having to fletch arrows for the next day’s rove. It hit me like a tons of bricks. “I am an aerospace engineer, why in the world am I still gluing feathers on a high tech arrow that I shoot with a high energy cam bow?” There has to be better way

I live to Elk hunt and have been shooting fixed blades for 21 years and have always had some degree of difficultly getting them to fly. Not so much around 200 FPS with my first PSE vector, but certainly with today’s equipment that can shoot 250 fps+. My set ups would always be with some compromise. Usually more helical and longer fletch. Feathers function better, are lighter but are more expensive, hard to glue, and very delicate for my hunting style. 

One thing I know, if you’re shooting a Zwickey (or any large fixed blade cut on impact head) at 250+ feet per second or anywhere close, it better be a great shot, release, tune job, good fletch etc…..or your in trouble. Especially if you have a bit of the “yeps” or a bad release. Now throw in a cross wind and having a stare me down contest with a big Arizona Bull. Anything that will help me with this situation is welcome news. 

Please understand- my goal was not “how to make a buck” but rather "how do I get a Zwickey to fly" 

Think about it. An engineered ridged airfoil vs. a piece of folding vane. Imagine blasting the fletch with a 250+ fps air stream and a heavy head on front. Those vanes will be folding and chattering trying to get the arrow to spin up. I have seen it with my own eyes in the wind tunnel. Also I have a rig that allows my to hold on to both ends of the arrow and fly the thing while it spins. Chatter and folding can be felt big time (chart on tech page web site). After this research (four years now) it is amazing that vanes work as well as they do. No wonder everything has to be perfect to shoot big heads and my hunting shots are seldom perfect. After all, when was the last time you saw a missile or anything that flies controlled with a non-ridged airfoil?

For my taste, when I am shooting warheads (Broadheads), I prefer heavy vs. fast. If you tell me your shooting 100-grain heads at 295+ fps I think that’s great! But how about adding some weight tubes and slow things down to 250 fps with a 145 grain Zwickey or the like?, now you have even more control and some bone breaking kinetic energy ( in case you have to drive it through the shoulder which is the point of using such a broadhead). After all, if every shot was perfect, just use mechanicals and a 400 grain arrow. Just seems like a waste of the potential energy transfer a cut on impact blade offers.

The FOB is very forgiving. If you have a bad release or target yep, the arrow stabilizes so quickly that instead of flying off and hitting crows, you will still be in the kill zone (folding fletch vs. ridged airfoil). Of coarse if it hits the arrow rest you’re in for a violent situation. (talk about getting the yeps!). With a good rest like drop zone, mirage, muzzy zero effect and the like that is not an issue and they shoot both size FOBs. With others it takes some fiddling with or your limited to shooting the 1.0 FOBs. We have a gentlemen in Texas who converts standard prong rest to fall aways and shoots FOBs great. He is reversing the spring and attaching a cord. Very clever! 

Current FOBs are designed for hunting, spot target and stump shooting and they do that very well. 

FOC Guidelines- the FOBs blows the FOC rules out of the water! The FOB is about 30% farther back compared to a fletch and at the most efficient location possible. In addition the ring wing produces an additional 3 x the force pushing the arrow back square with the world. So in short, you can shoot a heavy broadhead without tuning issues . It’s just a matter of Physics. Proper arrow spine of coarse is still a factor. We have been shooting heads way over guidelines without any issues. FOC stills applies, but the figures have changed.

Again, The FOB was design to shoot large hunting heads, which require radical helical and usually 4-5" of vane. In my case that’s about 35 grains of plastic. Yes, feathers are lighter but hard to install and do not hold up to my hunting style. If you prefer ultra-light arrows with light heads that’s great! And for many applications like Antelope hunting that’s the ticket. But if your hunting Elk, I have seen what 750+ grains with a heavy cut on impact blade can do to a forward shoulder. I have also seen what an ultra-light arrow and tips do if it’s not a clean pass through. Not much fun calling off the hunt and having all your buddies track an Elk for two days then finding him run off with an arrow stub in his shoulder. If you are needing high speed and light tips, the FOB reduces cross wind drift by 70%. Makes a big difference when you taking a 60 yard shot at that Antelope with a 20 mph cross wind. So weather you use 85 grain tips or 185 grain tips, FOBs will fly truer and will allow for easy tuning.

Longevity:

As I have mentioned, FOBs are for hunters, stump shooting and spot face targets. In this application, we find FOBs far outlast vanes and are very economical. The FOB pops off for reuse where a feather or vanes would have been torn. For me, FOBs outlast vane 10 to1. That’s me. If you only shoot 3-D or when you practice you like to group and bust your nocks with another arrow, FOBs are not your first choice. 

It’s not an all or nothing thing. Feathers, vanes and FOBs all have their place. Why not use the best product for the application? 

All in good cheer!


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## Brown Hornet (Aug 8, 2002)

Thanks Paul that clears alot of things up. Quick question though how do you figure that they outlast vanes 10 to 1? That seems odd to me. Maybe feathers but not vanes. I have arrows that I have had setup with vanes and feathers for 1-3 years that I shoot often and have never refletched. I also have a bunch of busted and robin hodded arrows that the fletching are still perfect on, the arrows themselves are just busted. 

If your arrows are being used for hunting, spots and stump shooting. Why are your vanes geting trashed? You aren't shooting for groups at animals. The 5 spot targets don't tear up attack your arrows. If you are shooting groups were you are tearing up your vanes shooting stumps then I would have to assume that you would also break up some FOB's. If you fletch your arrows correctly and use quality vanes you shouldn't be having problems with your vanes. Also shouldn't you be tearing up your arrows as well if not more often when stump shooting? I would rather refletch than buy more arrows. 

Sounds to me like you may have to much FOC with a 145 grain point plus an insert you are up around 170 grains or so. That may be part of your tuning problem. Shooting a bow at 250 fps is no where near fast by todays standard. A setup like that is easier to tune and more forgiving than a 280+ fps setup. A setup traveling around 250fps can be tuned by eye.


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## aroshtr (Jul 19, 2002)

Hornet, I have a guess as to why Paul's FOB outlast vanes. My guess is that in his stump shooting etc he is experiancing a lot of pass thru arrows. This would cause premature wear and damage to any fletching. In his case the FOB just falls on the ground during a pass thru and can be re installed.

Just my thoughts

Joel


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## Paul Morris (Mar 1, 2004)

Bingo! And thank you. I mostly stump shoot to keep in practice. 

re: FOC

As the broadhead size increases, the weight forward of center gets a bit unstable (no secret). If anything, adding mass (20-40 grains of FOBs or plastic vanes) would only improved balance compared with your 10 grains of total stabilizer. Yes, as the weight on the back increases your spine also is affected. All these factors need to be shorted out by the user based on intended use. If your set up is perfect for you that’s great! Would not change a thing. For others who have had issues tuning broadheads and/or would like to go to a larger cut on impact blade, FOBs will find a niche. The FOB was never intended to replace all current fletching applications. 

As I mentioned, I prefer to slow things down and have a harder hitting arrow. I am in no way saying that FOBs are limited to shooting 250 fps or they slow the arrow down. We have folks shooting well over that and working just fine. I am just suggesting that anytime you increase speed by reducing mass that creates compromise. I just prefer to have a harder hitting arrow. Finding your bow’s maximum efficiency is an individual call based on intend use, shooting style and set-up. 

Saying a bow is easier to tune at 280 vs. 250? All depends on what you are trying to do. You say 280 fps is good, great! I am just saying I will take the 250 fps with a weight tube and 70 grains more kenitic energy. Just my prefered methology. Not for everyone.

Thanks


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## Brown Hornet (Aug 8, 2002)

Paul you miss uderstood me. I was saying that a bow shooting 250 is easier to tune than one over 280. No the other way around. I agree on the whole more KE issue. Although I feel the whole weight tube thing isn't needed (just shoot a heavier arrow to begin with) you don't need that much KE for anything in the US. But for hunting I prefer a faster bow shooting a heavier arrow. That is why I prefer bows like the Hoyt Super Tec or a Ultra Tec with spiral cams. Both bows at 320 or above. I can shoot a 400-450 grain arrow and still be over 280. Going up another 50 grains isn't even that big of a difference KE wise. but I could still go up to say 500 grains or so and still be over 250. But that is another discussion. 

Good Luck and Happy Shooting.


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## Guest (Mar 10, 2004)

*OK, I worked with mine last night*

1. seemed to take me forever to get good paper tune with my VFT and TKO rest. (Why do the pull cords have to be mounted so close to vane clearance area). Ended up with nock point very high.
2. No problem shooting 1" FOB.
3. Larger FOB keep wanting to nick the pivot area on the TKO or try to pull the silencers off the prongs of the TKO. Maybe I need to set nock higher yet.
4. Shooting Carbon Express arrows and nocks (35" ata, 28" draw), I experienced string contact with the larger fob. I had to go with longer Easton super uni nock. I also added a brass nock point to lift the upper tie of my string loop. Did not test to see with this would resolve problem with the standard CX nock.
5. This string contact with larger FOB may happen on shot ata bows with longer draw lengths.

They were fun to shoot. When my shoulder heals, I expect to shoot them some more.


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## Dugga Boy (Apr 21, 2003)

It's an interesting concept indeed and as being an engineer myself I appreciate any kind of inventor's spirit.

I still love my feathers because for me only with feathers it will be a "real arrow" but that's a personal and maybe a sentimental thing.

I'm really happy to meet another gentleman in that forum who shares my conviction according to heavy arrows.
My hunting arrows varying between 650 and 800grains with fixed broadheads up to 250gr., coming along pretty deadly between 255 and 280 fps.

Best of luck for your product.
Markus


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## Paul Morris (Mar 1, 2004)

Markus,

I would say based on your current set-up you should stick with 1.0 FOBs. What are the largest broadheads you plan on using? The 1.0 FOB runs a two blade to about 145 grains or so depending on your draw weight. Three blade heads are limited to about 125 grain for the 1.0 FOB. 

Glad to answer any specifics.

Fred,

Thanks for the encouragement! My average arrow range is about the same as yours.

Speed vs. Mass very interesting subject.

Paul


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## Paul Morris (Mar 1, 2004)

Markus,

re: TKO and 1.25 FOBs

Just got off the phone with Golden Key-They have been testing FOBs for a while now.

Try turning the prongs over so they point down. That will give you some additional clearance. Also they make an extension bar, which locates pivot behind and below the riser shelf. They said just call and would be glad to assist.

re: Nocks and 1.25's- using longer nocks eliminate string pinch on shorter Bows. 

Brown Hornet,

I could not agree more! That's what makes this sport so interesting. There is no one right way and archery physics can be a very complicated issue. My intention to produce the product was to allow for a hassle free system which helps take some of the guess work out of spine, balance and head weight issues with larger hunting heads. The FOB produces an additional stabilization force. Drag and spin as with a fletch and the ring wing creates lift. This lift acts 360 degrees and is the key element why FOBs fly as they do. The current 1.0 FOB is an overkill by a mile for the very lightweight and fast arrows. If the market demands it, we will certainly by looking into making a 10-15 grain 0.75 FOB or the like. 

Thank you all for the comments and feedback. It all helps! When the ads hit the market soon, I will be more informed and prepared for the adventure.


Paul


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## Dugga Boy (Apr 21, 2003)

Hi Paul,
could it be that you confused Fred's and my name in your replies? 
Markus


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## Guest (Mar 11, 2004)

*I am easily confused myself*

Got the Extreme VFT and TKO shooting bullet holes last night with bare shaft and with fletched shafts. Had to put nock point higher than expected, but finally got it there.

Shot the 1 inch and 1.25 inch FOB's with no problems. I will probably stay with the 1 inch FOB. Both are quiet and interesting to shoot.

I will check with GKF regarding extension plate or whatever that is that may help. Not sure I want rest farther back since this is not a tall brace height bow.

Don't know if I am interested in shooting broadheads as I like to shoot lighted nocks, such as Lumenock, when hunting. I want the lighted nock to stay with the arrow so I can find the arrow. 

Of course, If I had a superglue dispenser that would load up the front side of the FOB when I shot, then the FOB and lighted nock will stick with the animal and I can watch them run off.


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## Paul Morris (Mar 1, 2004)

Sorry about the names. 

Long hours....."it has begun"! but all fun stuff!

Fred-
Good to see the TKO shooting both size FOBs! Sounds like you do not require an extension plate. 

Lighted Nock, well, at least the FOB will be easy to find! And you have the spot flagged, tagged and lighted! : )

I have a friend in Texas who is just starting out his own business making lighted nocks. Work great with FOBs. As you mention, the nock stays with the FOB not the arrow. His lighted nocks add only 10 grains. 

I partially spray paint my arrows with little day glow paint. Also a very thin strip of reflective tape applied to the shaft works great! But not as good as a lighted nock to be sure.

If you have a few "old warheads" in your tackle box, please pull them out and give them a try with the 1.25's. Even the big and ugly should fly darts (check arrow spin with the heavy heads). This may help with your decision in what system to use. When you get a chance, please test in crosswind conditions (worse the better) I think when you see what happens, your decision will be easy.

Markus-
What type of broadheads to you use? What ever they are I like the sound of them. I have a friend in Australia testing FOBs who is sending me some locally made "Outback" broadheads. They have a unique design, which allows most of the weight way back from the tip and are a cut on impact blade. They just got rejected in Customs, so it will be a few weeks before I get them (I hope). 

Thanks


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## Dugga Boy (Apr 21, 2003)

Paul,
I'm using my homemade broadheads.
Regulary they come up to 180gr. 

Take a look at the link in my signature.

Have fun!
Markus


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## Guest (Mar 11, 2004)

*Got some Wasp Boss and Crimson talons*

Used the Wasp Boss 100 gr. last year with 5 in. helical. Will try them, Wasp Boss Bullet 75 gr. and some 90 gr. Crimson talons. 

I had sent email to SpinTite to get a couple sets of their new Aerofoils to try, but received no reply. So, we will just use the FOBs. and see if everyone can get along. 

Tks for replies Paul.


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## Guest (Mar 12, 2004)

*shot wasp boss*

The broadhead with the 1.25 hit closest the the field point. The 1 inch FOB hit a little right of the 1.25 FOB. I may still have some tuning issues, but for now got to let the shoulder rest.

Hope others will be able to post some results.


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## fishslayer1963 (Feb 13, 2004)

Paul M you have a pm Thanks KIRK


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## fishslayer1963 (Feb 13, 2004)

*Bowtech Dave*

Bowtech Dave i sent you a pm Thanks Kirk


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## stodrette (Jun 19, 2002)

Did I understand this correctly. The FOB when it comes off also takes off the nock. I use the illumi nocks also.


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## Guest (Mar 15, 2004)

*YES, Nock comes off*

with the FOB. Lighted nocks helped me find arrows in the weeds and tall grass where I hunt. So for hunting, I wouldn't want to give that up.


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## Harald (Sep 12, 2003)

FOB works very well on a 2314 x7 Cobalt (Swage system)

Has anyone figured out if FOB's Fita clean???

Can't see why it should not be legal indoor tree spot
18m or 25 m, but what about outdoor shared target???

and Field and 3D?


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## Indiana Archer (Feb 3, 2004)

*Price*

Don't you think the price of the FOB's is out of reason. I checked the FOB website and they want 9.95 for four. If they want to sell a lot of them, they will have to get within reason. A similiar product priced within reason will take their sales away.


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## nick snook (Jun 16, 2002)

Something thats keeps coming up and I wish to clarify it.

The TURBO NOCK is plastic, the Starlite is plastic and also the Accuvane is plastic. Because of this a lot of folks seem to group them in the same category. 

Bottom line. Every arrow stabilization system ever made since the dawn of time has used wind resistance passing over some type of airfoil (feathers, vanes, accu vane, starlite ) 
All of these systems have problems.
First they provide virtually no stability at the moment of release.
They all require a straight nock and they do not spin until some distance away from the bow when air passing over them produces enough rotational drag to make them spin.
The average for fletched arrows is 2 revolutions in 20yds
They all start at 0 revolutions when they leave the bow, and this is the most critical part of arrow stability. This is why we have to tune broadheads. 


The TURBO NOCK Is a totally new method of flying arrows.
We do not call it a vane, because the Nock with the patented twist is what really stabilizes the arrow.
Bullets and TURBO Nocks both use the principal of rifling to achieve stability. Guns have rifled barrels and the TURBO has a twisted nock.
The TURBO is the only system that instantly stabilizes an arrow at the moment it leaves the string. PSE tested them two years ago and proved that they actually make TWO full revolutions in the first FIVE feet of flight. Another way of looking at this is that conventional fletched (any system using only wind resistance) leaves the bow at 0 rpms and gets up to 2 revolutions in 20yds.
The TURBO leaves my hunting bow at 270fps with about 7000 instant rpms. YOU DO NOT HAVE TO TUNE BROADHEADS.

Our old piper cub had flaps on the wings that we used when we landed the airplane. We put the flaps down , the extra wind resistance slowed the plane down and it landed.

Since the invention of the TURBO NOCK there seems to be a lot of catch up going on in the archery world. 
Most new products are trying to increase spin by adding flaps to vanes or feathers. The new NAP vane has flaps attached and the 
Accuvane has flaps. Both of these products do spin (not as fast ast the TURBO) but at a price. If you make and object spin by increasing wind resistance by using flaps , you will spin faster, but you will also slow down fasten and lose trajectory. The laws of physics are very strict. 
The TURBO kind of cheats the laws of physics by taking a little energy from the bowstring motion and mechanically spin the arrow. Since the arrow is already spinning The TURBO can fly with 80% less vane than conventional fletch that has to make the arrow spin. Less vane + less wind resistance.
Bottom line !!!!
At this time The only products using rifling are bullets and the TURBO NOCK. No one fletches bullets!!!

I am used to my product being bashed , but now over 80.000 archers are using it. and we just got in Cabelas!!!! WHY????
It WORKS!!!! The compound bow dominates the sport of archery because it is a mechanical advantage over lonbows and recurves.
The TURBO NOCK is the first and ONLY true Mechanical advantage for arrows in the History of archery.


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## nick snook (Jun 16, 2002)

comparison photos


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## nick snook (Jun 16, 2002)

photo


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## nick snook (Jun 16, 2002)

I am not trying to bash other companies, but the TURBO NOCK just can not be compared to other products that use only wind resistance. TURBO fly differently and tune differently.


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## nick snook (Jun 16, 2002)

Passthroughs.
If you glue the TURBO in the shaft it usually passes thruough the animal. and acts as a second broadhead . cutting a second wound path and causes more trauma to the animal
If you do not glue it in , it may pop off. then it will be laying very near where the blood trail starts. Either way it is a benefit.
In two years of hunting NO animal has ducked a turbo or has any animal complained.


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## nick snook (Jun 16, 2002)

one more


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## Dugga Boy (Apr 21, 2003)

Nick,
I understand about the "instant twist" caused by the twisted nock.
Why not offer such a nock without the "fletches", so anyone can use his/hers prefered vanes/feathers?
Maybe that nock could come with an advise how the arrow has to get fletched to correspond with the nock twist.
Just an idea.


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## Rangeball (Sep 30, 2003)

Now there's an interesting thought...

I'd probably try them, but i'm inclined not to try the turbo's as they currently are, even though I'm sure they do everything they're touted to do...


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## nick snook (Jun 16, 2002)

I am actually developing a "back engineered" TURBO .
It will be called the T-4. 
I have already tested several versions of this on my good old BEAR TEMUJIN. Yes I made an experimental TURBO that can shoot feathers off the shelf!!!!!
I have done this with great reluctance cause I grew up fletching arrows and I would prefer not to do fletching. 
Well it seems a lot of you love to fletch. ( I think it is just an excuse to do a little glue sniffing) and we just can not re live the 60s and 70s.

Anyhow . This T-4 TURBO should be ready for the next ATA SHOW.
It will not provide all the benefits of the original TURBO , but for those of you who just will not give up fletch this is the performance it should provide.

1. shoot vanes and feathers off the shelf on recurves and long bows and also will be tuneable for prong rests and boodoodles.
2. You should be able to fly mechanical broadheads with the little 
1-1/2 inch vanes now used for 3-d and target and You should be able to fly fixed blade broadheads using only 3 inch vanes instead of 5 inch vanes.
3 It should give a 50% decrease in wind resistance over conventional fletching because of using smaller vanes and will also provide the Instant stability that only the twisted turbo can develop.

4 less wind resistance will give flatter trajectory.


We are still working on the best degree of pitch for the twist that will give the most benefit. You should still be able to use your old bitzen burgers and other fletching machines.

I will grumble everytime we sell one of these, but my main goal is to make this sport better. So if you are not ready to take the leap into the ROCKET science of the new TURBO NOCK. this 
T-4 will meet you half way.

WE are also working on a new TURBO ROCKET that is still in the developmental stages that incorporates new technology that will literally blow the socks off arrow flight!! I can not reveal the changes ,cause we are filing new patents, but the ROCKET project will be even more efficient in stabilizing arrows . We are looking at possibly a year and a half for this to get into production.It usually takes from 1-1/2 to 2 years to get a patent, and I will not release product with patent pending. It is too easy to get ripped off in this business.
It works and is really FFFFFAAAAASSSSSSTTTTTT
It needs a lot of prototype work before a production mold can be made.

There I spilled the beans for the first time here on ARCHERY TALK!!!


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## Rangeball (Sep 30, 2003)

Sounds Great!

Please do keep us "posted"...


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## Dugga Boy (Apr 21, 2003)

The T-4 sounds nice for old-fashioned guys like me.
Will looking forward for your new invention.

How a about a Turbo nock that creates lift to counteract the trajectory downrange. It just takes some energy of the speed, so theoretically we can shoot all distances with one sight pin and the arrow will just drop after flying 150 yards or so in a straight line.


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## nick snook (Jun 16, 2002)

Duggaboy I think to accomplish that feat we woul have to really put a rocket assist on the TURBO.
Physics just will not do that. Whenever you use aerodynamics to create lift you also create drag which slows the arrow down and causes a loss of trajectory.


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## robk (Jun 10, 2002)

being a person who likes to tinker i have been shooting them against the turbo nock. what i have found is they have the same rpm's a fletched arrow and only spins like a vane or feather where the turbo nock is like that of a chambered bullet going thru the rifling of a rifle and the rpm's are higher for the turbo nock. yes the starrlight will keep you from using fl;etching but there are no speed changes like you would think and you can only shoot them from a drop away where the turbo nock uses both drop away rests and whisker bisquit rests at this time but have heard that gkf is designing a new disk for the new whisper disk which i will be tersting i hope very shortly. the idea of the starr light is good no fletching but is totally different fromt he turbo nock. if your going to shoothtem you might want to try the turbo nock for yourself anf test them for overall performance with each other. just my assessment of the testing i have done so far
rob k


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## Dugga Boy (Apr 21, 2003)

nick snook said:


> *Duggaboy I think to accomplish that feat we woul have to really put a rocket assist on the TURBO.
> Physics just will not do that. Whenever you use aerodynamics to create lift you also create drag which slows the arrow down and causes a loss of trajectory. *


Yes, slowing the arrow down but creating the lift out of its energy (kind of energy conversion). Of course it will work only for some yards (maybe 60) and probably the arrow will bounce back from a 3D target at 50 yards because of the low speed.
Hey, that was just a thought from a "nutty professor" .


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## nick snook (Jun 16, 2002)

The kind of lift you are talking about just can not be done on a rotating projectile. you would have to turn the arrow into a cruise missle to do that.
The only way trajectoy works on spinning projectiles is speed.
Everything drops at the same rate. ( basic law of gravity)
The fastest projectile to the target will have the flattest trajectory.
the slowest the greates arc. or drop.
This is one of the reasons the Turbo performs differently than conventional arrows. 
Fletching causes wind resistance that slows arrows down and causes them to lose their trajectory.
The TURBO spins mechanically and flys with 80$ less vane and less wind resistance. Its average speed is faster so it has a flatter trajectory.


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## jim p (Oct 29, 2003)

I know a guy that developed a bullet that would steer and fly along a laser beam so it wont be long before arrows will be flying down laser beams. But we can't use lasers for hunting. oh well.

I like all of the new developments. I have never seen a turbo nock in my local archery shop. What is the cost of a turbo nock?


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## nick snook (Jun 16, 2002)

Check out our website at www.turbonock.com

they are about 20bucks a doz


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## nick snook (Jun 16, 2002)

DUH I fortot to tell why I put up this photo.

I get a lot of questions asking if the TURBO works at low speed.
Well if you look closely at my grandnephew's 30yd group on the mountain lion , you will see that there are TWO TURBOS touching!!!

The lil sucker out shot me and my CSS with a 6X scope.


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## ZAPPAL (Apr 2, 2004)

Gee Mr Snook you are great gate crasher !


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## StevenS (May 1, 2003)

When is something like this going to come out that doesnt require a drop away rest!! Sigh....


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## francis (Jan 18, 2003)

too bad you couldnt combine turbo nocks with magnocks!


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## AKDoug (Aug 27, 2003)

Yeah, but you'll be able to combine the new T-4 and this whirly gig...


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## gametrax (Nov 20, 2003)

StevenS said:


> *When is something like this going to come out that doesnt require a drop away rest!! Sigh.... *



The turbos will shoot fine through a wisker bisquit or whisper disc or the funnel style rest.


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## StevenS (May 1, 2003)

I use blade launchers, nothin but.


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## gametrax (Nov 20, 2003)

Well then I guess youre SOL...

"1. shoot vanes and feathers off the shelf on recurves and long bows and also will be tuneable for prong rests and boodoodles.
2. You should be able to fly mechanical broadheads with the little 
1-1/2 inch vanes now used for 3-d and target and You should be able to fly fixed blade broadheads using only 3 inch vanes instead of 5 inch vanes.
3 It should give a 50% decrease in wind resistance over conventional fletching because of using smaller vanes and will also provide the Instant stability that only the twisted turbo can develop.

4 less wind resistance will give flatter trajectory."

Or you can wait for the t-4 to hit the market!


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## nick snook (Jun 16, 2002)

Hi Zappal

I am sorry if I have upset you for "crashing " this string.
My product was mentioned here and I feel I have a right to defend it and provide information on my product.

There are a lot of new products out there trying to make arrows fly better. BOTTOM LINE!!!!!!
Every product ever made since the dawn of time has used vanes or feathers in some way to make arrows spin using only wind resistance.

The TURBO NOCK ( we call it nock not vane) stands alone.
This is the only archery product that uses the principal of rifling just like bullets. NO ONE FLETCHES BULLETS (except for fletchets)
The TURBO is the only product to provide instantant stability as soon as it leaves the bowstring.
every other product starts at o rpms and uses wind to gradually get up to some degree of stability. 
The most critical part of arrow flight is at the moment of release and the TURBO is the only product that deals with this!

WIND RESISTANCE is a double edged sword when you use it to make arrows spin. The only way to make an arrow spin faster is to increase helical or pitch, or add flaps. These will increase spin but also increase resistance, which by all laws of physics will cause the arrow to slow down faster and lose trajectory.

The TURBO takes energy from the bow string and spins mechanically . Since it is already spinning it only needs about 20% as much vane as any other fletching system. 
80% less vane on an arrow that is already spinning and stable makes the TURBO function like no other arrow in history.

The TURBO basically does to arrow flight what the compound did to the recurve. It is the first mechanical advantage for arrows.

If you are sitting at a chair , raise your hand in the air and push the air in front of you. (You do not move very much) that is the same air that vanes and feathers use to spin your arrow.
NOW put your hands in front of you on the edge of your computer desk and give a good hard push!! When you get up from the floor
You will have just proved that Mechanical energy has a little more to it than wind resistance. 
Again the TURBO spins because the nock is twisted and it gets 
forced mechanically to spin.


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## Dugga Boy (Apr 21, 2003)

> NO ONE FLETCHES BULLETS


Nick,
may I understand the system correctly if I say that the nock is the "spinning starter" but the fletches or rudders on the Turbo Nock are need to "keep" the arrow spinning?

Keeping the arrow spinning by the rudders needs wind resistance as well, right?

So, I still think that the T4-Nock with a fletching comparable to the TurboNock rudders (sorry, I don't know if this is the correct term for that) in surface and pitch, is not a disadvantage below the "full" Turbo Nock.

Please let us know as soon as that nock is available.
I would highly appreciate if the T4 will be available for the Easton Axis, too.


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## nick snook (Jun 16, 2002)

Hi dugaboy

You are correct the twist in the nock starts the TURBO spinning and the vanes using windresistance keep it spinning.
The advantage over conventional fletch is that because the twisted nock gets the arrow spinning . you can keep it spinning with a lot smaller vane (smaller is less wind resistance)

The new T-4 will provide advantages over conventional fletch , but not all the advantages of a solid turbo.
You will still have to go through the fletching process with the t-4

solid vanes provide more consistant accuracy than flexible vanes.
The main difference will be that the t-4 will be tuneable for shoot through rests like the tm huners and bodoodles.

The main reason we decided to get this t-4 design up and running is basically there is a great deal of resistance by many archers not just to the solid turbo but to Fall away rests.
Hopefully the t-4 will be an improvement that many archers will be able to use to improve their arrow flight without making the change to a fallaway. 
I do believe those that will use the t-4 and find out the benefits of this new arrow flight technology , will eventually see that the full TURBO NOCK is the way to go.


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## francis (Jan 18, 2003)

who makes this new T4?

what is it?

anyone have any pics?


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## Dugga Boy (Apr 21, 2003)

Francis,

read the thread and you will find out.

The T4 is a TURBO Nock without the attached fletches (plastic rudders), thus a nock with a twisted groove, causing your arrow to spin instantly after string release.
It allows you to use your prefered fletching.


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## nick snook (Jun 16, 2002)

The T-4 is not in production. 
I just finished testing experimental versions to determine certain aspects of pitch in the nock in relationship to conventional vanes and feathers.
I am meeting with my patent attorney this thursday to make sure the product will fall under the protection of my patent.

As soon as I get the OK from him we will start on the production mold.

If all goes well It should be ready for hunting season.
After the meeting I will put up some photos.


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## nick snook (Jun 16, 2002)

I will be starting a separate thread with info on the T-4 and will not post any more on this thread. I seem to have upset some people and that was not my intention.
I do get concerned when my product gets lumped in with others just because it is plastic.


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## deerhunter17 (Mar 14, 2004)

wow these look pretty neat


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## LukeAust (May 5, 2004)

Here are the first two officially "Fobbed" Aussie ferals!



















And here's what I think of them...a reply to a good mate of mine who was/is very sceptical about FOBs....



> No probs bud, I'll be thinking of you when I'm out hunting and it's raining and my FOBs are unaffected , or when I shoot up a FOB and just pull another one out and replace it , or when my old fletches get shot up and I take 10 seconds to replace them with a FOB or when I pick up a FOB after a pass through where it's clearly marking the spot for me , or when I only have to allow a bees [email protected]#$ on what I used to have to allow in cross winds
> ...
> As long as you think of me when you're filling in time between applying fletches or when you have to replace blood ruined feathers because you couldn't wash them out immediately after a pass through or when you can't use a shaft till you get back to camp because the fletching has come adrift or when you have to wait two days til your new arrows are all fletched before you can use them or when you shell out your next $80+ on a new fletching jig or when your arrows are doing more sideways action than a speedway sprint car because of cross winds or when you are scraping old glue off a shaft before you can refletch it or when you miss a shot because you guessed the distance incorrectly and the arrow dropped a smidgeon too much or when you are fighting to get the cap back on your "fletch tight" before it all squirts our of the tube.
> 
> ...


I think FOBs ROCK!

Luke


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## francis (Jan 18, 2003)

would it make any sense to use a full turbo nock when shooting fita 90 meters with those little pencil size arrows lol? would you really see an improvement?

or is the turbo nock mainly just used for hunting when using a braodhead?

just windering where the results would really be seen.....for all shooting (3d field fita) or just with broadheads?


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## nick snook (Jun 16, 2002)

Here is a kind of answer to your question of shooting fita rounds with turbo nocks. 
this group was shot by Dustin Yokum at 100 yds using 2512 easton cobalts, not skinny fita shafts.
Dustin just placed 13th in the ncaa nationals. shooting those 2512s and will be going to Atlantic City with them.
If the TURBO will fly fat shafts like that , just think what they would do for target shafts.


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## MerlinApexDylan (Oct 14, 2002)

nick snook said:


> *Here is a kind of answer to your question of shooting fita rounds with turbo nocks.
> this group was shot by Dustin Yokum at 100 yds using 2512 easton cobalts, not skinny fita shafts.
> Dustin just placed 13th in the ncaa nationals. shooting those 2512s and will be going to Atlantic City with them.
> If the TURBO will fly fat shafts like that , just think what they would do for target shafts. *


Then make some for cartels and I'll shoot them.


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## DwayneR (Feb 23, 2004)

That's the beauty of these things... They do pop off, allowing the arrow to pass through with no fletchings on them to slow them down. Plus... When they do pop off, they mark the spot of the hit, making it easier to find the exact spot the animal was standing.


When it passes through, do you loose the nock off your arrow too?

Dwayne


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## LukeAust (May 5, 2004)

Yeah mate, your nock pops off as it is what is holding the FOB in place. But it's just a tad more color on the ground that makes it easier to find your FOB and the place where you hit the animal...

FOBs ROCK...did I mention that?

Luke


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## predator116 (Feb 29, 2004)

*fobs*

what type of drop away rest has any one used ,i have seen that the muzzy works good i wanted to use the new vital bow gear but it wont work has anyone used any other rest?


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## casoundinc (Jan 4, 2004)

*I switched my hole target setup...*

Well where to start... I picked up a few of these for my 3D setup (Mathews LX with a Trophy Taker shaky hunter micro... Loved them. Nock busting groups from 60 plus yards... I practice shooting at those plastic capped roofing nails and from 40 yards I was literally hammering nails... I decided to try them on my hunting arrows CX 3D selects with Montec fixed blades... Same results. And when shooting through targets they in fact do just pop off. Very cool for hunting. O.k. so I thought I would try them on the target bow... Now this is a little harder... Martin Scepter III with Nitrous shoot through cables... I took a brite site pro-tuner off of my target bow and replaced it with a trap door... And WOW! the results are pretty fantastic. I tuned bare shafts through paper (perfect bullet holes, and now I love the trap door rest...) and with the FOB my 5 spots are all X's... The only problem is now no english at all... You can't shape a shot with these what you release on is what you get, but is that really a problem?

Coll

And no, I don't shoot or sell for anybody.


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