# Non pro archery and cash paybacks



## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

Not a promblem at all
DB


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## 3dshooter25 (Nov 17, 2008)

I like going to a national event and having the chance to win money as an amateur. It adds a little bit of an incentive and pressure to shoot better. I also like that the top shooters are moved out after they have won a certain amount of money. It keeps a good shooter form sandbagging and staying in that class for years. I won out of Open B in 2009 and won out of Open A in 2010. I will be competing in Semi-pro next year and am really looking forward to competing with such good shooters. I hope that I will be competing in Open Pro eventually, but until then, I like being able to win a little bit of money at national level events to help pay for travel expenses. It only makes sense if you pay a 50$ entry fee that you should get something back if you perform well.


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## 3Dblackncamo (Jul 22, 2009)

no problem with it at all, as others have said it costs to travel and shoot national shoots and it moves shooters to higher classes, on the other hand if i dont win a dime i will continue to shoot!


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

No problem here with amateurs winning money. The NFAA has been doing it for how long? As long as I can remember, but it sucks. Yeah, sucks. I mean the NFAA breaks down classes in flights. Here, you can place 5th in Championship flight and no money and someone you beat takes 6th place, but is paid money for being 1st in flight B. And not only this, but down the flights, say 5 flight people could still be paid money and here you are 5th in Championship flight and no money. It sucks.

For RASIB
ASA. Read the last before going off the deep end. I am a ASA member. We have our rules. Good, bad or indifferent we live with them. Still, I have never understood this constant gab of; "We can't let this guy dominate the class. The rule lets someone else come up and win." Sorry, I don't buy it. Take the ASA Hunter class, same as the NFAA BowHunter Free Style. What is wrong with a shooter dominating the Hunter class? I figure this way; "Hey, I'm top dog. You want to beat me put more into your practice, hire a coach or whatever." So this poor sap is forced to move up, buy new equipment and begin all over again. The Open A, B and C class divisions is a improvement over the NFAA flight system. Here, I can see one being moved up from C to B to A. But I can't see one required to go from Open A to Semi Pro or Pro. 

Now. The move up rule is not used at the state level, Qualifiers or State Championship. Only money won on the national circuit is used to move one up the ladder. I can sit in Open C and win every shoot and remain in Open C. As I understand, until the rule is amended no one in any class who remains at the state can be required to move up.


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## RASIB (Nov 30, 2006)

I also am a ASA member and usually the national level move up takes care of the state level classes. People are required to shoot at the state level what they shoot at the national level so it usually is not a problem. I don't know if what they propose at the state level for next year is going to go over so well with combining open A and semi-pro as well as known 45 and known 50. And don't worry, it takes a ton to push me off the deep end.


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## bclowman (Aug 2, 2009)

After reading Sonny's response on a different thread i can say that i agree with his point of view.


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## pseshooter300 (Oct 16, 2005)

Why is winning money a big deal to some people you boat to travel and pay for expenses


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## okarcher (Jul 21, 2002)

Not a problem at all. I prefer it that way and wouldn't travel 100's and 1000's of miles not to when I can shoot for a trophy or fun at local shoots.


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## carlosii (Feb 25, 2007)

mike, ken, and bruce are doing the heavy lifting on this, so i'll just show up and shoot when the spirit moves me. if they go off the deep end and mess up their organizations its their necks on the block. i have enough problems getting people involved to help put on our local shoots without having to worry about micro-managing asa, ibo, and nfaa...plus i gotta keep my wife happy.


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## bhtr3d (Feb 13, 2004)

Sonny....you do know as a state director you have the right to move someone up a class.


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

bhtr3d said:


> Sonny....you do know as a state director you have the right to move someone up a class.


First, I'm not the State Director. I'm a Area Representative. My book has nothing for moving one up. Moving one up comes under ProAm Rules.


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## Brian from GA (Aug 15, 2002)

Sonny, If a person wins out of Hunter they have to move to Unlimited.... same type equipment. A shooter can not be forced out of Unlimited. Most folks do leave Hunter and go to an Open class. But they are not forced to.


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

Brian from GA said:


> Sonny, If a person wins out of Hunter they have to move to Unlimited.... same type equipment. A shooter can not be forced out of Unlimited. Most folks do leave Hunter and go to an Open class. But they are not forced to.


I was only trying to give a example.


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## Reel-Break (Nov 21, 2005)

The flight classes I think help bring lesser archers to more tournaments.Who`s going to a tournament with no shot. I mean we know where we stand take me for example love to shoot just don`t or ever had coaching lots of practice time what ever. So if I go to a tournament with flights I just might have a shot at last flight and get my entry fee back.BETTER YET A MONKEY FOR THE MAN CAVE.Guess we all look at it from different veiw points but for the people making money from entry`s the flight classes do get people there like it or not.Just my 02 worth.


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## Dr.Dorite (Oct 27, 2008)

Are we still discussing the paying of amateurs?

Now I’m old, and not in the running, I’ll just watch, as you are learning…to crawl.
No advice for the rest, for I probably know less, just that I’ve been there…that’s all.

A long long time ago, before many here were born, I was very involved in competition shooting of Kentucky Flintlocks. I enjoyed the challenge of competing and the camaraderie of others with like interest, just as I do today as a amateur archer. There were awards for the winners, most of the time consisting of donated merchandise. Some of these prizes I still treasure today as I reminisce, and remember. The clubs found it was easier to purchase trophies and plaques, than to round up all the donated prizes, so they took the easy route and purchased the trophies and plaques. These, I also still treasure as I remember winning each one as if it were yesterday. Eventually it was decided, by those looking for an easier way, to reward the winners by simply handing back a portion of the entry fees. The money was spent and forgotten. 
Guess you know where I’m heading, now. Sometimes what looks like a good idea from the standpoint of easier, faster, simple or just to be different has negative side effects.
I am one who would like to thank the officials who go the trouble of designing, purchasing and providing the Plaques, Trophies, Belt Buckles, etc. I know many have the attitude of, just give me some money and I’ll be satisfied, but in my opinion, the money is a way to pay the ones who have made Tournament Archery their profession, and should be paid for their performance.
Archery is a hobby that I really enjoy, I love the challenge, the camaraderie, The chance to shoot new courses, meet other archers, make new friends. But it’s still a hobby, and I am still an amateur, meaning not performing for pay. Guess I’m form the old school, but I still enjoy a nice memento that represents winning, that was provided by those not looking for the easy way to pacify the shooters…Just my 2 cents


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## 3-D Quest (Jan 26, 2007)

I agree with Sonny to a point. I think, if you want to beat the best, you need to shoot with the best. But, I agree with being forced to move up also, although there should be a point where that stops. Open A should be the end of the road for any amateur if he so chooses. This class tends to be the best of the amateurs. The step up to Semi-Pro should be by choice. 
I don't agree with the "top dog" idea in the progressive classes, as an example, you could take a top shooter from Open A and drop him back in a lesser class and none of the up and comers would ever beat him. But, I realize that ASA has rules to prevent that though and you need those limitations.
It doesn't really matter to me, since there is no forced move from Sr Open. But, by no means is this class a cake walk. The majority of the Sr class are consistently good shooters. I know what it's like to shoot against the best, and it does force you to step your game up.
Dr. Dorite, If I do win, I'll take both! I love belt buckles and money is always nice!


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## treeman65 (Nov 24, 2005)

bhtr3d said:


> Sonny....you do know as a state director you have the right to move someone up a class.


explain please Tim


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## Sith of Archery (Nov 5, 2008)

i agree with 3-D quest..He hit the head on the nail....I also favor force move ups..but their should be a limit...a stopping place...no, pro should not be the stopping point.

Open A would be a good stop...but I do think that open A should increase fee some...maybe 75,,,,
Why? Well not everyone wants to shoot pro, either they cant afford too, cannot obtain sponsorship, or cannot invest the time it takes to compete in the pro class....250-300 entry fee per shoot is not cheap. The economy is tough...were lucky to have as much participation as we do now...so lets not run them off...

here is another idea I have too..If your a factory sponsored shooter/ in other words you get your bows for free, then I think you should be required to shoot at least semi pro...why? becasue you are receiveing compensation for representing a company...bows arnt cheap...there are costing around 800 to 12oo each.... The word amature IMHO should be a true common joe shooting/and competing with no help/no sponsorship....

Nothing against semi-pros or open pros...Most of those in semi want to shoot pro...thats fine...just getting more prepared....Pros want to shoot against the best and win $$$ from contengency money...thats where the pro dollars come from...


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## bhtr3d (Feb 13, 2004)

treeman65 said:


> explain please Tim


ASA RULES:

ASA reserves the right at any time to assign a registered shooter to a higher competition class based on knowledge of the competitor’s prior archery experience, performance in other archery competitions, or the individual’s established competition level in another organization. If, for example, someone shooting ASA for the first time feels that they are entitled to compete in the Open “C” class, but their previous archery experience, or competition status in another organization confirms that they are not a novice, then ASA reserves the right to require that individual to compete in a higher Open class.


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

I've read this before and re-read it after I was told how things go. I guess it's who's telling you and under what circumstances. As I was told once a person is in class it goes by rules with class description; Say Bow Novice - right from the rules; This class is reserved for participants who shoot in the novice pins class at the state level, or that won less than $300.00 in prize money in this class in their most recent year of ASA Pro/Am competition. AND then Open C; Men's Open C 40 yards, 280 FPS. This class is reserved for participants who shoot at the novice level in the open equipment class in their state, or that won less than $300.00 in prize money in their most recent year of ASA Pro/Am competition in any class that competes at 40 yards or less.

I've sent bhtr3d a PM on the ASA forums. I won't continue the discussion.


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## bhtr3d (Feb 13, 2004)

Sonny....The top dog class for bhfs for ASA would men's unlimited. its fixed pins and release ....anything else, is what you want to do with is; ie. either stab sizes..and lenses if you wish. Just so you know this....Anyone can stay in Unlimited for pretty much their entire ASA life.


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## bhtr3d (Feb 13, 2004)

Sonny....IF a person has won out of Bow novice in that year at a ProAm....they are kicked out of Bownoice on the state level....They are to either shoot hunter / open c ..or if they are under 18 ..young adult. It's pretty cut and dry.

Also, as I posted above....a shooter can be moved up by the director. It has to be notified up the chain of command, to get this done.


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## RASIB (Nov 30, 2006)

The ASA actually has a rule that if you receive 2,000.00 in compensation you must shoot at least semi-pro.


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## WDMJR3DBOWGUY (Dec 2, 2003)

RASIB said:


> The ASA actually has a rule that if you receive 2,000.00 in compensation you must shoot at least semi-pro.


Hahahaha....try enforcing that.


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## Sentinalonfire (Apr 4, 2010)

why would anyone travel, lets say the 1200 miles it takes me to get to metropolis ill for nothing but a chance at a plaque? that would be rediculous... i dont understand where people are coming from with this? why is it not ok for an amatuer to win a lil change for his hard work and effort? just my opinion, Matt Varnes


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## WDMJR3DBOWGUY (Dec 2, 2003)

Sentinalonfire said:


> why would anyone travel, lets say the 1200 miles it takes me to get to metropolis ill for nothing but a chance at a plaque? that would be rediculous... i dont understand where people are coming from with this? why is it not ok for an amatuer to win a lil change for his hard work and effort? just my opinion, Matt Varnes


It's just the thinking of old school nfaa guys and they wonder why that's dieing.


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## 3-D Quest (Jan 26, 2007)

Sith of Archery,
Not a bad idea at all! I think raising the fees is a great idea, but you'll probably catch alot of flak on that one. It would only make the pot sweeter (for a small amount) in the overall scheme of things. I wouldn't be opposed to that slight of an increase in the Sr Open class either.
My opinion, why bother traveling so far for a what-not when you can do that at home. Compared to green fees with no pay-back, ASA tournament fees aren't half bad. Having the chance to win some expense money back is just a plus.
If you say you don't want a check for winning, you've obviously been into the kool-aid.


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

Not really breaking my word, but acknowledging. bhtr3d and I are conferring.



bhtr3d said:


> Sonny....The top dog class for bhfs for ASA would men's unlimited. its fixed pins and release ....anything else, is what you want to do with is; ie. either stab sizes..and lenses if you wish. Just so you know this....Anyone can stay in Unlimited for pretty much their entire ASA life.


I understand this. 



bhtr3d said:


> Sonny....IF a person has won out of Bow novice in that year at a ProAm....they are kicked out of Bownoice on the state level....They are to either shoot hunter / open c ..or if they are under 18 ..young adult. It's pretty cut and dry.
> Also, as I posted above....a shooter can be moved up by the director. It has to be notified up the chain of command, to get this done.


Chain of command, yes, Through Headquarters and the rules Committee is the proper method. Until approved that person remains in class. People is place, this should go smoothly and quickly.



RASIB said:


> The ASA actually has a rule that if you receive 2,000.00 in compensation you must shoot at least semi-pro.


That rule is in limbo..... How would you enforce it? Make the shooter fill out form? How do you know they told the truth? Hire a investigator? $2,000 today is pretty easy to obtain and go over. Two bows, $1800. Couple dozen arrows, $300. Two releases, $300. And it goes on. Some years back, the NFAA was real strict on this. If you so much as wore a bow factory shirt, a bow factory belt buckle, you were put in a higher class, Sponsored or Factory Shooters then.


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## treeman65 (Nov 24, 2005)

bhtr3d said:


> ASA RULES:
> 
> ASA reserves the right at any time to assign a registered shooter to a higher competition class based on knowledge of the competitor’s prior archery experience, performance in other archery competitions, or the individual’s established competition level in another organization. If, for example, someone shooting ASA for the first time feels that they are entitled to compete in the Open “C” class, but their previous archery experience, or competition status in another organization confirms that they are not a novice, then ASA reserves the right to require that individual to compete in a higher Open class.


thanks Tim
with saying that if you had a person that finished in the top three 2 years in a row in open c he should be moved to open b.
correct?


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## asa_low12 (Mar 15, 2008)

Sentinalonfire said:


> why would anyone travel, lets say the 1200 miles it takes me to get to metropolis ill for nothing but a chance at a plaque? that would be rediculous... i dont understand where people are coming from with this? why is it not ok for an amatuer to win a lil change for his hard work and effort? just my opinion, Matt Varnes


It would be a lot harder for me to choke down the $300 minimum of going to a tournament to win a $10 plaque. Especially when i'm in school, have a low paying job, and can't actually "afford" to go to any tournaments. Getting a check for even $100 bucks in the mail a couple of weeks later is very, very nice when your a poor man that has to do with out to get to tournaments. Just gotta keep on keeping on


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

Sentinalonfire said:


> why would anyone travel, lets say the 1200 miles it takes me to get to metropolis ill for nothing but a chance at a plaque? that would be rediculous... i dont understand where people are coming from with this? why is it not ok for an amatuer to win a lil change for his hard work and effort? just my opinion, Matt Varnes





asa_low12 said:


> It would be a lot harder for me to choke down the $300 minimum of going to a tournament to win a $10 plaque. Especially when i'm in school, have a low paying job, and can't actually "afford" to go to any tournaments. Getting a check for even $100 bucks in the mail a couple of weeks later is very, very nice when your a poor man that has to do with out to get to tournaments. Just gotta keep on keeping on


A few factors that drive attendance or why else would you go if you know you won't place or win? Prestige is one, the fact you were at a big archery event. And then going to a big archery event is no unlike going to a circus or zoo, but then you are also in it, competing, meeting new people, developing new friendships and seeing the newest archery tackle. To some archery just isn't competing, it's a way of life.


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## asa_low12 (Mar 15, 2008)

SonnyThomas said:


> A few factors that drive attendance or why else would you go if you know you won't place or win? Prestige is one, the fact you were at a big archery event. And then going to a big archery event is no unlike going to a circus or zoo, but then you are also in it, competing, meeting new people, developing new friendships and seeing the newest archery tackle. To some archery just isn't competing, it's a way of life.


Having a little trouble understand the first sentence or two but I think I catch the drift. Archery and hunting isn't just a way of life for me- it basically IS my life. I don't care to go to gulf shores and see the beach, I would rather go to London, KY or go hunt in Iowa. If I had plenty of money then I would fly to new zealand just to win a trophy, but I don't. I don't always win money at ASA's but when I do it sure makes it a lot easier on me. It's a gamble if your only in it for money, but most people aren't. It would be a shame in my eyes if the amateurs couldn't win any money. I would absolutely lovvvve to shoot pro at ASA's but there's no possible way I could afford it right now without a sponsor paying pretty much all of every entry fee. It would have to make you a better shooter to try and compete with the best in the world and even just getting to talk to them for a few hours at a tournament once a month.


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## okarcher (Jul 21, 2002)

I believe its from a mighter than thou attitude. Trust me take the money out of the amateur classes if you want to see the attendance drop from the asa or ibo. I can compete against some of the best in the nation right here in my own state. Don't get me wrong I love going to the pro/ams and seeing all the new stuff and people thats what really makes them great but I wouldn't go if I didn't have a chance to win some $$$ to help with the travel and expenses. amateurs of almost every sport gets paid unless they are school related.


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## 3dshooter25 (Nov 17, 2008)

I know that I wouldnt have been able to attend most of the ASA shoots if ASA didnt have payback for the amateurs and contingency money offered by sponsors to the amateurs classes. Carbon Express, Bohning, TRU Ball, Stage 1 strings, etc. paid contingency money last year to me in my 3 2nd place finishes and along with the ASA paybacks, I made enough money to help me travel to some shoots that I wouldnt have been able to otherwise. I had some health issues mid season last year that financially drained me due to not having health insurance (very,very stupid on my part). I know you can't make a living of payouts as an amateur but It definitely helped me last year and made it possible to compete. I know several guys who go to ASA or IBO shoots for the chance to win money and If they ever stopped paying the amatuer classes, Attendence would drop. I shot Open A last year and I agree with moving top shooters into semi-pro. I think only 5 of us got moved out this year but it will prevent people from staying in that class and dominating. It also adds another goal for me throughout the season and I want to win out. It will be much harder to win out of Semi-pro but thats my goal eventually. I hope that they don't ever stop paybacks and contingency to amateurs because without amateur participation at national events, attendence would drop and the tour would die and none of us want that.


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## reylamb (Feb 5, 2003)

Way to go Ralph......way to get things stirred up!!!!!!!!!
Don't you have some dishes to go work on, or maybe an audio encoder somewhere:teeth::teeth:


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## RASIB (Nov 30, 2006)

Well, Dansby gets too striired up when I pick on Mathews so I had to pick another subject.


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## gud235 (Feb 7, 2004)

For those that think amatuers shouldn't win money, start a circuit that only pays the pros. See how that works out for you. 

The amateurs will not show. Without amateurs you have no tournament.


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## 3-D Quest (Jan 26, 2007)

gud235 said:


> For those that think amatuers shouldn't win money, start a circuit that only pays the pros. See how that works out for you.
> 
> The amateurs will not show. Without amateurs you have no tournament.


Nuff said!


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## Sith of Archery (Nov 5, 2008)

Sentinalonfire said:


> why would anyone travel, lets say the 1200 miles it takes me to get to metropolis ill for nothing but a chance at a plaque? that would be rediculous... i dont understand where people are coming from with this? why is it not ok for an amatuer to win a lil change for his hard work and effort? just my opinion, Matt Varnes


good question....
Here is Ole' Sith's take on it....First.. there is no one to blame/condemn on this .....just the nature of the lack of popularity of 3-D archery when compared to other sports.

Those that support No $ for amautres support all the $ for pros. Why I suspect why this group feels this way:
Simple....The payouts for the pro classes are rediculously low. Reason being..no big money sponsors and the participation in pro class is low (and I fear that number could decrease due to the economy/ the archery companies are having to cut back,,, familys are also having to cut back....
If the pros' were winning a lot more money, and the wealth was spread out more, then I doubt you would hear any pro complain about Joe's winning money in the amature classess.

Those who feel that Joes should be able to win $: their argument: We are the ones keeping the archery orgs, and the archery manufactors afloat....we are the ones spending money buying equipment, and allowing you, the arechery related employees to keep your jobs! Without us joes, you guys would not exist! 

IMHO Valid arguments for both sides...


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## 3Dblackncamo (Jul 22, 2009)

Sentinalonfire said:


> why would anyone travel, lets say the 1200 miles it takes me to get to metropolis ill for nothing but a chance at a plaque? that would be rediculous... i dont understand where people are coming from with this? why is it not ok for an amatuer to win a lil change for his hard work and effort? just my opinion, Matt Varnes


some dont have what it takes to win so maybe they get jealous, I see nothing wrong with winning $, as for myself i didnt win any $ but you will still see me shooting if possible!


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## treeman65 (Nov 24, 2005)

bhtr3d said:


> Sonny....you do know as a state director you have the right to move someone up a class.


Tim sorry to disagree but that is not true.State director can ask for someone to be moved up but that does not mean ASA will move them.


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## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

WDMJR3DBOWGUY said:


> It's just the thinking of old school nfaa guys and they wonder why that's dieing.


When the last time you went to NFAA Indoor nationals or Vegas. I dont see NFAA dieing on the indoor stuff. Honestly some will travel to compete on major level for no money and plague and do but in 3d it wont work because to many want cash rewards and are use to it.
DB


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## nickel shooter5 (Dec 26, 2009)

Ibo does pay cash in every class but hc and young classes. Its not enough to retire on but will help off set some of the cost...


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## treeman65 (Nov 24, 2005)

I hope this post was ment as a joke.


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## nickel shooter5 (Dec 26, 2009)

treeman65 said:


> I hope this post was ment as a joke.


Sorry it wasn't.... it just gets old that people want paid to play... if you want paid in archery then WIN... I don't win so I don't worry about getting paid. The USBA paid good and that org didn't stay around long.


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## JAG (May 23, 2006)

I think there needs to be some money payout for amateurs. I know personally, i can spend close to a grand traveling to some of the national shoots, so why shouldnt i get some payback if i do well?

I'd like to see beginner classes for men and women both, that had lower entry fee's for the true beginners.... then increase the entry fee's as the classes go up. The more you pay in, the more you can win back. Just sayin.


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## Dr.Dorite (Oct 27, 2008)

I agree 100% with you. I wonder if all those who are wanting more money paid to the winners, of the amateur classes, would agree to give all of the present payback to the winner, instead of spreading it down the line. Is everyone wanting to get paid for just shooting? I don't see a 6th or 7th place shooter being considered a winner. Is spreading the money so thin, and taking it away from the winner what people are wanting. I'd be for rewarding the winner instead of trying to satisfy everyone down the line.


nickel shooter5 said:


> Sorry it wasn't.... it just gets old that people want paid to play... if you want paid in archery then WIN... I don't win so I don't worry about getting paid. The USBA paid good and that org didn't stay around long.


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## JAG (May 23, 2006)

I dont know what the exact schedule is, but its something like 1-10 shooters, pays one spot, and so on. 

IMO i dont see that 10th place should get a check..for the most part, 1st- 3rd would be great... possibly a 4th place if there are a lot of shooters.

I would much rather see the top finishers get more of the winnings, it gives you something to strive to be better for..


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## carlosii (Feb 25, 2007)

hey now...us bottom feeders like a little gravy too you know. wasn't for us you wouldn't know how good you really are.


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## RASIB (Nov 30, 2006)

ASA state directors can move a person to a higher class. The ASA state federation and the National pro-am tour are different. State directors can't move a person at the national level. They only control their states. The problem with this is when you go to move a sandbagger they usually throw a fit or quit shooting.


treeman65 said:


> Tim sorry to disagree but that is not true.State director can ask for someone to be moved up but that does not mean ASA will move them.


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## Dr.Dorite (Oct 27, 2008)

RASIB said:


> ASA state directors can move a person to a higher class. The ASA state federation and the National pro-am tour are different. State directors can't move a person at the national level. They only control their states. The problem with this is when you go to move a sandbagger they usually throw a fit or quit shooting.


Sorry, guess I got on the thresd late. I thought you wanted opinions on non pro paybacks, but I see the subject has moved to ASA admin. rules so I'll back out.


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## RASIB (Nov 30, 2006)

I wanted opinions on paybacks. But as usual on this site it has turned into who can throw the most crap.


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## bhtr3d (Feb 13, 2004)

Nothing wrong with payback. at the amateur level... I believe if a entry fee is adequate for the merits of having a payback, then by all means go for it and have it....


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