# Hoyt 550 Carbon Wood Limbs



## Jason22 (Aug 16, 2008)

With all of the attention on the new Formula bow, I completely missed these new carbon wood core limbs from Hoyt. It's good to see they are listening to what many archers want. Hoyt is calling them the ultimate HDS compatible carbon/wood limb, but then again they are the only HDS carbon/wood limb, all others out there are ILF 

Anyone shot these? I'd like to know how they compare to Samick Masters, Sky Carbons, W&W Apecs Prime or Border HexV-W limbs... or even the original Hoyt Carbon+

http://www.hoytrecurve.com/recurve_bows/hoyt_recurve_limbs.php

http://www.lancasterarchery.com/product_info.php?products_id=12371 $399 at Lancaster


----------



## jmvargas (Oct 21, 2004)

am almost sure these limbs will turn out pretty good...its only when hoyt started using foam or something newer on their top limbs(FX..G3..900....) that their limb problems came up...IIRC it never happened with their wood core ones..the carbon+ was probably their last great top limb....the vectors and M1 were also great but it was not the top hoyt limb at their time...JMHO.


----------



## greennock (Dec 13, 2007)

Aren't the Carbon/Wood 550's the replacement for the Carbon/Wood 300's except they're alot more money?

All the compounds show arrow speeds. Why don't the recurves show something so we can compare different limbs performance? You can't just go to a bowshop and try different limbs at 70m to see how they work so you're spending a fortune blind buying mail order. You really have no way of knowing if the $650 990TX's shoot any faster than their entry level Stratix's.

It would be nice to see a comparison between the Hoyt, WW, Samick etc. as well as limbs within each brand before we spend our hard earned dollars.


----------



## jmvargas (Oct 21, 2004)

speed is certainly an important factor to consider when purchasing new limbs but IMO stability-ie-forgiveness- is even more important..

i think it would be easy enough to come up and publish speed figures using baseline draw lengths and arrow specs but stabilty would be a bit more difficult to measure..

i would be curious,however, to see if any of the manufacturer's would take up that challenge...

...and i am not referring to just claiming--"we make the most stable..." or "our limbs are....".....but real SCIENTIFICALLY MEASURABLE AND VERIFIABLE stability figures....

PS..IIRC win&win is the only one so far to make an attempt to do this when the winex limbs first came out....


----------



## Acehero (Nov 2, 2007)

I'm always a bit wary of benchmark results, i think it'll just lead to more marketing hype unless they are carried out by an independant party with no vested interest in any of the products. I mean when a company says " ....these limbs show increases of x fps" or " x fps faster than ever before" we have no idea what exactly they are comparing them to, or what sort of setup they are being shot out of. 

The limbs look interesting though. The 300's are a model I have rarely seen over here in the UK so not had any chance to experience them, but I would like to try wood core limbs just to see if they do feel different like many people say.


----------



## ScarletArrows (May 25, 2007)

Had a set of 300's for awhile...not my cup of tea I like carbon foam better...at 38# they stacked harder than my 40# 900's. Speed wise they were a little slower (about 5 fps at the same poundage)

All in all the construction was excellent and they shot smooth...If I could have found a way for them to stack less then I would still be shooting them. I think that if I used Longs instead of Med. for the same poundage they might feel a little better.


----------



## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

> All the compounds show arrow speeds. Why don't the recurves show something so we can compare different limbs performance?


This is exactly the question I asked a certain "engineer" years ago that made them get all twisted up in a knot. The answer I got was "just trust me..." 

Well, sorry. But that's too much cash for me to just "trust you". 

Anyway, they sure are purty with all them high dollar graphics and all...  They got that part down to an art alright...

If I were to shoot a set of Hoyt limbs, these would probably be the ones I'd try. As was said, I don't recally their wood core limbs having problems, except for one incident with one of the Noble boys at the '06 JOAD nationals. But that was the only set I can recall failing or ever heard of failing with wood cores. 

Wood gives a different feel and sound than foam. Some like it, some don't... I myself really prefer wood cores because they are generally smoother and always quieter.

John


----------



## Acehero (Nov 2, 2007)

limbwalker said:


> Wood gives a different feel and sound than foam. Some like it, some don't... I myself really prefer wood cores because they are generally smoother and always quieter.
> 
> John


Hi John

To somebody who has only shot wood cores in the cheapest beginner style limbs, and at low poundage at that, how would you describe this feel? I hear people say they stack more, which I assume to mean they feel a bit harder to pull that last inch or two. But again, having no experience of this either, I'm curious to find out. A lot of top archers like them.


----------



## greennock (Dec 13, 2007)

jmvargas said:


> think it would be easy enough to come up and publish speed figures using baseline draw lengths and arrow specs but stabilty would be a bit more difficult to measure..
> 
> i would be curious,however, to see if any of the manufacturer's would take up that challenge...


Isn't the baseline you are thinking about the IBO or AMO speed. Hoyt could come up with their own standard for FITA bows.

I'd think if any one of the manufacturers published their standard speeds, all of them would fall in line and do the same. Back in the 70's when the compounds came out, you couldn't buy a speed rating. If you were lucky you read about it in a magazine article where someone fortunate enough to have a chrono did a test. Somewhere down the line one of the mfgrs started posting the speeds and now they all do.

The speed is all we have to go by unless you're lucky enough to be able to shoot them first.


----------



## jmvargas (Oct 21, 2004)

the AMO or IBO right now is only for compound...AFAIK there is no equivalent yet for recurve..

recurve,however, is not all about speed the way compound is...

that's one of the reasons that the hooter shooter cannot be used as a tool to tune recurves vs compounds....the 2 main differences are the fingers used by recurvers vs the compound release and the plunger button/arrow rest vs the fall away rest..

the release is critical for recurve consistency...the compound release is more like a trigger and therefore much more consistent...

all these make the torsional stability of recurve limbs a critical factor in evaluating limbs--in addition to the speed factor..hence i wish there could be a scientific and verifiable way of comparing torsional stability between different manufacturer's limbs..

i will take a "slow" 10 vs a "fast" 8 anytime...


----------



## engtee (Oct 2, 2003)

There is a thread on the Australian site, concerning these limbs. George had commented and I asked whether they were faster than the 300/CRX. He said they were more torsionally stable and a little faster. What we really need, if not fps readouts, is a comparison in speed and stability to a limb that is widely known, like a G3


----------



## jmvargas (Oct 21, 2004)

one unscientific way to test for torsional stability is to hold the limb tip and try to twist the limb from there...the harder it is to twist the limb is an indication of its stability....

...and it is always better to rely on competent independent third party reviews/opinions rather than company spokesmen saying "more this or a little that..." when it comes to answering questions on subjective non- verifiable qualities of their products--have you ever heard a car salesman say the car he is selling is not good?

the idea to compare limbs vs a baseline limb is a good one but preferrably not their own--ie--top of the line hoyt vs top of the line win&win--samick--borders..etc..etc..

of course,any manufacturer who comes come up with such a claim will have to be able to back it up with the scientific data i was referring to earlier or leave themselves open to legal complications..but then again if they are really confident of their product(and their data) that should not be a problem.... 

IMHO that would be a true test......


----------



## jmvargas (Oct 21, 2004)

claims such as "....unmatched torsional and vertical stability....." is meaningless without the backing of verifiable scientific data...

....kinda reminds me of a car salesman saying all sort of stuff trying to sell you the latest model.........


----------



## ScarletArrows (May 25, 2007)

lets set up a set of testing and statistical data points ourselves...We can call it the ATRSS--Archery Talk Recurve Specifications Standards

we can use the 5 grains per pound standard that compounds use to measure speeds @ 28 or whatever draw length we want to specifiy...

for torsional rigidity we can measure by hanging a weight (dunno poundage maybe 3-5#) on the limb tip and measure deflection of the tip from center line of limb?

vertical stability I dunno how to measure so ideas here are appreciated.

Draw force curves are easy to generate with a scale and a ruler...would be the best way to measure stack.

Weight of the limb

any other ideas?


----------



## jmvargas (Oct 21, 2004)

that's a great idea SA!...i like your suggestion on the torsional rigidity..just needs a little more fine tuning to make it easily measurable..

...vertical stability is much simpler as it seems to only be a function of draw length and bow weight...

would like to hear some more ideas from the other tech geeks out there!!...


----------



## Borderbows (Apr 4, 2009)

first of all 5grains per pound would kill a recurve in most cases esp when you get into higher stored energy levels of long draws and high poundages.

BUT. 
To measure vertical nock stability you would need to have all the limbs in the same riser, and at the same bolt position, as this bolt position can kill some vertical Stability. as well as brace height, so like all good tests, use the mid point of the manufactureres recomendations.

Tie a wee bit of string round the NP and attach a weight scale. Pull the weight scale inline with the string to measure the deflection, you can either measure it to a fixed load and measure the deflection, or deflect to a set distance and record the load required to achive it.

The next one for measuring torsional stability (Warning***CAN TWIST SOME LIMBS PERMINANTLY****) would be to put the limb into a clamp, and apply a 15lb side load to the limb tip. Measure the deflection from normal.
We have a letter here from 2002 from Mr Park Himself, stating that there is NO more than 5lbs in a release, so 15 is just daft, but the 15lbs is used just to deflect the limb enough to measure the deflection better, as measuring 0.1mm is tough work vs, 1mm. Remember that the 10thou of an inch of launch angle will have quite a difference in score, and your not really going to see that on High speed vid. so the more you can haul that 10thou in line the better its going to be...
anyone with CXC limbs from us will have a hard time twisting the limbs by hand out of a bow, but simple glass limbs will defect visably so. infact any UD constricted limb will deflect so. The Inno and Winnex are quite stable in this respect, and we have seen some other cheaper limbs with very good torsional stability (one of the SF limbs if i remember correctly). Try the hand deflection test as JMVargas mentioned and test the 990tx vs the Inno and you will see what this is about.
(hold the limb butt in your hand, the tip in the other and test the resistance to screwing the tip rotationally round) Somehow the recent claim from Hoyt to be the first in torsoinal stiffness is very questionable as there products dont demonstate this in any product we have seen on the market. None of their advertising untill recently (Upto 990TX) has ever touted the benefits of this limb attribute and the FX is testiment to a NON stable limb somehow they knew about this but didnt include it in the FX or G3???? but i give you the method of testing it so you can see for your self how a torionally stable limb feels. You can vote with your feet once you know what your looking for.
I can share with you, on how to look for the highly acclaimed Speed, stability and smoothness. And you can choose for your self.
Instability will manifest itself in string movement so there is the X and Y testing methods, speed is speed and the data from a DFC worked into pounds gained per inch of draw will show you smoothness.


----------



## jmvargas (Oct 21, 2004)

".....the recent claim from Hoyt to be the first in torsional stiffness........."

concerning the above is it possible that perhaps hoyt could back it up with some verifiable data?...it would seem like an irresponsible claim otherwise......


----------



## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

> is it possible that perhaps hoyt could back it up with some verifiable data?


This is something you will most likely never see from Hoyt. Data doesn't fit well with outrageous marketing claims... 

Only company I've ever seen make an attempt at this is W&W. I believe they showed draw force curves and fps gains for their WinEx limbs. 

John.


----------



## Vittorio (Jul 17, 2003)

Sometime I go back to THA to check if there was anything wrong in "Comparing limbs to limbs" chapter, and I think situtation remains the same as it was in 2002 and 2005, with nothing added later. 
Last week Michele made a direct comparison between two very different pair of limbs from two very different manufacturers.

Arrow: Ace 430 C3, 125 gr stainless steel point, 30.6", exactly same as it was in the book. 
Riser: Best Zenit, no limbs alignement, perfectly straight. 

Limbs A:
Made in Korea, Carbon/Cross Carbon/Wood core, nominal 70"/44#
Improved curve, 9 1/4 bracing
Tuned poundage: 48.90#
Arrow speed: 214 Fps

Limbs B:
Made in Korea, Fiberglass, Cross Carbon, Foam core, nominal 70"/44#
Improved tip curve only, almost straight in the middle, 9 1/8 bracing
Tuned poundage: 50.40#
Arrow speed: 210 Fps

Tuning level: around 590 at 18 mt with both limbs, bares hafts in the X10 for both. 

Then, as far as torsional stiffness is concerned, the only practical way to test it are:

- Several indoor competitions under real stress under the sam elevel of form
- Twisting by hand the limbs as suggested by mr. park and Sid as well.

B limbs are infinitely more torsionally stable than A limbs with this simple test. For the other one, we will need some months... unfortunately


----------



## greennock (Dec 13, 2007)

limbwalker said:


> This is exactly the question I asked a certain "engineer" years ago that made them get all twisted up in a knot. The answer I got was "just trust me..."
> 
> Well, sorry. But that's too much cash for me to just "trust you".
> 
> ...


How would you think these 550 limbs would compare speedwise to the G3's, 990TX? Are they just a step above the Stratix/ZR330 all woods?

The 550's are $70 more than the 300's were. What are you getting for the extra $70 other than a price increase?

I had a chance to shoot some Stratix wood limbs on my riser and they were quite a bit slower than my all wood KAP's (same poundage, BH, string & arrows). Hate to spend hard earned dollars to upgrade and find they're actually slower than what I got.


----------



## Borderbows (Apr 4, 2009)

Page 20-23 of Issue No 778 of FFTA (french magazine) 2002 had an indepenedent bow limb test which illistrated the techneques to test the torsional resistance.
The test was conducted by a Mr Laurent Ivaldi (employee) of LAS Distribution in France. (i might add that the techneque for torsional limb testing was based on our advice)

Upon this test and its conclusion, W&W found there bench mark on bow limb torsional resistance, as thats the first time its EVER been advertised as a tangable quantifiable measurement as one of the aspects of stability as far as we know. No one has every quantified a Side load pull on a limb publically since due to the politics that followed that limb test. We have copies of some of the paperwork here.

We have scores of archers that have attributed PBs to our limbs of which we know the torsional resistance characteristics. We know what limbs will group better on a horizontal plain, for any given setup.

W&W Then went flat out to establish a torsionally resistant limb, capable of matching ours, to which they established the same construction ideas as our XP10 concept. No surprises there then!

Id like to see when Hoyt came up with this idea, and why did they hold back for over 10 years, as thats as long as we have been pushing it!


----------



## Borderbows (Apr 4, 2009)

Vittorio said:


> Riser: Best Zenit, no limbs alignement, perfectly straight.


you mean well made ;-)

If you dont have a straight bow, then you should take it back to the maker, and not have to fudge it with adjusters???

Ive NEVER seen a benefit to the archer for lateral adjustment!


----------



## Vittorio (Jul 17, 2003)

Borderbows said:


> you mean well made ;-)
> 
> If you dont have a straight bow, then you should take it back to the maker, and not have to fudge it with adjusters???
> 
> Ive NEVER seen a benefit to the archer for lateral adjustment!


Legend says that lateral adjustemtn was invented because it was difficult (outside Italy) to make straight risers. Straight limbs should be a must, otherwise you should take them back to manufacturer... ...


----------



## Borderbows (Apr 4, 2009)

Stylist make a non ILF straight riser, and so we also make a straight wooden riser. in 25"... Cant be that hard???
Well we will soon find out with our new CNC Mill
Lets see if the UK can make straight risers too.


----------



## Vittorio (Jul 17, 2003)

Sid, you know, is not difficult, is just expensive...


----------



## jmvargas (Oct 21, 2004)

Vittorio said:


> Sid, you know, is not difficult, is just expensive...



.......high quality products normally are...as the saying goes--"you get what you pay for".....usually.


----------



## greennock (Dec 13, 2007)

Just noticed Lancaster has the highest price on these 550 Carbon/wood limbs. I'm surprised they're so much higher than K1.

Lancaster - $399.99

K1 - $369.90

Alternative - $375.50


----------



## philipdimondo (Apr 10, 2004)

*standard*



limbwalker said:


> This is something you will most likely never see from Hoyt. Data doesn't fit well with outrageous marketing claims...
> 
> Only company I've ever seen make an attempt at this is W&W. I believe they showed draw force curves and fps gains for their WinEx limbs.
> 
> John.


Hoyt is very well respected in the compound world by not overstating their speeds as other manufactures do. 
More often, they underestimate by 1 to 3%. 
I see no reason why, if there were a standard (IBO/AMO), that their recurves would not be as trustworthy.


----------



## jmvargas (Oct 21, 2004)

IMO having an IBO/AMO standard for recurve speed could be a first step towards gaining credibility for all manufacturers as far as the speed factor is concerned...

unfortunately and as i mentioned before speed is only one of the factors to consider in target recurve archery...torsional stability or "forgiveness" is a much more important factor to consider when choosing recurve limbs..

another problem i can see is the IBO/AMO standard being contemplated would have to specify a complete bow or at the very least a standard riser....it would then be a standard for limb performance only or complete bows as found in compounds...

if these concerns can be overcome thru a reliable and verifiable method i am all for coming up with these standards for recurve...


----------



## Vittorio (Jul 17, 2003)

As everybody knows, so called standards for compound speed measures are leaving so many parameters to the "interpretation" of a manufacturer that declared numbers remain what they are, declared numbers only. Who cares of the speed at 70# and 29" arrow without vanes and loose nock and special extra light string and overdraw rest if you are shooting 26" at 45# with different cams with real arrows, real rest and a string that does not break after 2 shots and the peep on it?
A real compound speed standard should include a declaration of the speed at af the bow "as sold" at more reasonable draw and at an average poundage with the real arrow for that poundage and draw. Will never happen. 
No way to get a real standard for compound, were it is by the way technically more possible, what hope to get it for a recurve bow (not limbs) ?


----------



## greennock (Dec 13, 2007)

jmvargas said:


> IMO having an IBO/AMO standard for recurve speed could be a first step towards gaining credibility for all manufacturers as far as the speed factor is concerned...
> 
> unfortunately and as i mentioned before speed is only one of the factors to consider in target recurve archery...torsional stability or "forgiveness" is a much more important factor to consider when choosing recurve limbs..
> 
> ...


I don't believe all this fine detail matters. Mfgr X uses whatever riser, string & arrows they want then tests their limbs against Hoyt, Samick, WW etc and show the speed. What the actual velocity is doesn't matter with this type of test but would show if theirs were really faster than the others. I think the average recurve shooter isn't concerned with much more than the fastest limbs. How many experts are out there compared to average shooters upgrading to new limbs.

For me not being an expert, I'm looking for the fastest limbs that will buck the wind and not make me aim at the sky for 70 & 90 m and still allow me to hold it long enough to make a good shot at the draw weight I can handle. I can quickly see the speed difference when shooting at 70m and see if I need to raise or lower my sight setting. If there's no significant change for the better, I'm not going to buy new limbs. Imagine spending $650 for new limbs and your sight setting doesn't change or worse, you now can't make it to 90m.

Borderbows says their limbs are faster than the others out there. Here's their opportunity to come up with a test comparision to get the ball rolling and show us some numbers. Wouldn't take much. Either use a bow machine or expert and start shooting limbs at a set poundage with the same arrows & string formula and record the speeds. They could hold a tournament and ask people to allow them to borrow their limbs for 10 shots and they wouldn't need to buy any limbs.

As for a recurve std like AMO or IBO, some mfgr could blaze the trail and come up with a std riser, arrow and string. Once it gets started, the others will either come up with their own or join the bandwagon. Mfgr's need to realize with our current economy we're just not going to shell out $400-$650 for a set of limbs without getting a chance to try them and just trust them saying "they're faster or more stable!" We need to see some numbers even if they're not perfect. Who's double checking the speed numbers of the compounds? No shooters I know.


----------



## jmvargas (Oct 21, 2004)

sori greennock but for me all this fine detail does matter....

....if speed alone is what i will base my buying decisions on i will probably be stuck with very fast but not so forgiving limbs...

....the limbs used in flight bows are probably the fastest recurve limbs you can find but their design does not take stability at all into account...

i would compare it to the cars used in drag racing vs. the F1 cars...pure brawn vs speed and control....

when you like to try as many limbs as i do believe me you will do a lot of research before spending up to $700 for a pair of limbs....but that's just me..

PS..your suggestion about Borderbows has some merit but i personally feel it should be the bigger players like hoyt/win&win who should take the lead in these tests as they are the ones who are allegedly making these seemingly unsubstantiated claims.....border owners don't have to be convinced about the quality of their limbs.... 
JMHO..


----------



## greennock (Dec 13, 2007)

jmvargas said:


> sori greennock but for me all this fine detail does matter....
> 
> ....if speed alone is what i will base my buying decisions on i will probably be stuck with very fast but not so forgiving limbs...
> 
> ...


JM,

You're an expert. Looking at the bottom of your posts you have alot of equipment. Maybe you have access to a dealer that lets you try lots of stuff or maybe you have the funds to buy lots of stuff. There's far less experts than average shooters out there. Look at this forum. There's only a handful of experts that post and the rest are average shooters or people getting into the sport. The speed ratings would appeal to the masses just like the compound specs do. I doubt most expert compound shooters care as much for speed as they do for the other points you mention. But for someone that's not an expert which there are lots more of buying equipment as their skills improve, it's the only thing we can look at to make a decision of spending $650. The finer points most people wouldn't even notice the difference. I doubt anyone would ever come up with those type of detailed specs. If Hoyt and the rest only sold to the expert level shooters and above, they wouldn't sell many limbs to make it worth the effort.

I can do all the research in the world and if I don't get to shoot them before I buy them, I'm flying blind with just a "they're faster and more stable" that you see in their description. Like you mentionded cars, would you buy one without ever test driving it then find out the seats are uncomfortable and it hurts your back?

I posted a note about what difference will I see between different limbs a short time ago and got nearly no responses. Here's a challenge to the big guys. Let us shoot them first and if we don't like them we can send them back and pay a tryout fee. When they'd be getting lots of them back, they'd come up with some better specs pretty quick.

The reason I mentioned Borderbows is they are in a better position to do something than the big guys. They said somewhere their limbs were faster due to the way they built them. Well, they can prove it with some numbers. The big guys appearntly don't care.

I'm surprised to see how much resistance there is to putting up a speed spec just like they do on almost all compounds sold today. A question I hear alot at the range and see here is what do I need to make 90m. If someone can only pull X amount of weight their only choice is light arrows and fast limbs. The compound people got their act together and sell tons of bows. The first thing Matthews mentions about their new bows every year is the speed as do the rest.


----------



## jmvargas (Oct 21, 2004)

greencock...i'm no expert...but like some of us here--i am an equipment geek!...he he he!

when i decided to concentrate on recurve target archery in 2004 i also decided to try and get the best equipment i could afford so as to take away the equipment factor from any excuses i may have of not being able to score as well as i can..


....the reason,however, why i stress the torsional stability or "forgiveness" factor so much is that like many of us here also i was also not good enough to to score well with unstable or "unforgiving" limbs..(i am still working on that too!)

such limbs are very sensitive to form issues--specially the release--and only the frangilis and johnson's and parks of the world can get away with using such limbs..

when i wanted to upgrade from my first limbs--hoyt vectors--i did a lot of research..
the FX and G3 were hoyt's top and fastest limb at that time but i found out about their sensitivity to form issues thru my research...i also saw three G3's(and one XQ-1) explode during the 2005 southeast asian games and was turned off..

...i ended up with the the M1 for my first upgrade as it was touted by hoyt to be very stable albeit not their fastest limb...and they were right!!..i was only shooting indoor and up to 30M outdoor at the time..

when i progressed to the longer outdoor distances i looked for faster limbs but although they were still hoyt's fastest limbs at that time, i no longer even considered the FX nor the G3 due to their stability and breakages issues..

after a lot of research again i went to the samick extremes, winexes and winacts, pse pro-elites and xpressions and finally borders..

considering all the above i would never buy recurve limbs based on the speed factor alone...

compounds are another story altogether...PS..i also don't think Borders has to prove anything as they can back up their claims with verifiable data..


----------



## greennock (Dec 13, 2007)

jmvargas said:


> greencock...i'm no expert...but like some of us here--i am an equipment geek!...he he he!
> 
> ...PS..i also don't think Borders has to prove anything as they can *back up their claims with verifiable data..*


JM,

Where can I find this verifiable data? I'd like to take a look at it. I don't see it on their website. If they have something they should put it on their site. Maybe they'll need to double their staff from 10 to 20 with the increase in orders if more people find out their performance exceeds the big companies.

Thanks


----------



## jmvargas (Oct 21, 2004)

greennock said:


> JM,
> 
> Where can I find this verifiable data? I'd like to take a look at it. I don't see it on their website. If they have something they should put it on their site. Maybe they'll need to double their staff from 10 to 20 with the increase in orders if more people find out their performance exceeds the big companies.
> 
> Thanks


.....i suggest you email sidney ball at [email protected] and ask away.......you can also go to archery-interchange and go to the borders forum..

unlike the other manufacturer's, borders does not cater to the mass market as of now.........they focus their efforts in providing the best product and service to their customers...

.....i believe they have all the business they can handle right now and don't need to do the marketing hype that all the others do and need....JMHO.


----------



## greennock (Dec 13, 2007)

JM,

Don't know if you ever tried the CRX or 300's but if you did, how do you think these new 550's will be compared to them or will they be just a minor upgrade?


----------



## Borderbows (Apr 4, 2009)

We are not about speed. we aim to be about stability.
BUT what i can say, is that there are some facts about bows that are not all about flat out chrono speeds which from a manufacturers point, Vittorio is DAM right. there are a dozen tricks we can do to boost the speeds and "Fake" results. Like PTFE re-enforce the tab face, yeah it was off the fingers. but not on any "shootable tabe face", run 2mm of serving for nock fit to kill string mass. Run the preload at full tilt! Etc. I can also, as Vittorio said, use no feathers, and super slack nock fit and i can also give you the best 3 speeds, and not the average.
But the facts you cant hide,
I can give you working limb mass weights, laminate mass improvments over known datums, i can give you torsional deflection tests, and vertical stability results, i can also give you DFC's as well as smoothness graphs. I can give you email after email of testiment to improvments found from normal customers and not paid sponsered, based on previous kit. and somehow that wont please some critics. But its good enough for us to keep going with what we are doing. I can even give you our design philosphy as to where and why we are going the way we are, and i can back up the logic with sound basic bow mechanics. 
Simple ideas like the difference between a Longbow and a recurve is the recurve, Well why cant you have more recurve... Well because without torsional stability you end up with a twitchy limb... so solve that and you open another aspect to bow design, hence the idea of super recurves. The bonus to extra recurve is a TANGABLE and quantifiable smoothness unknown in stable recurve bow design. which is again measureable with nothin more than an arrow, 2 bow types and a marker or tape.

Whats smoother, a 70" bow or a 66" bow?

Simple to test.
With an arrow on the bow, pull the bow back till the string just leaves the tips and mark the arrow at the button (needs 2 people lol).
do this with the same arrow on the 66" and the 70" and you will see which one is smoother. The marker further down the arrow will be smoother. That mark will correspond with the belly of the DFC, I can Proove that our 68" Hex5 ILF Fita bow is smoother to draw than ANY 70" mass produced Fita bow out there for the same weight. That is provided we can agree on what smoothness is.
where would you like to start?
For example the string will leave the limb tip on a normal recurve 68" at about 21" (this correspeonds with the belly on the draw force curve) ie, the 1.7lbs per inch opposed to the 2.2lbs per inch
Now, the 68" hex5 limb sits in this trough at 26-27" and that corresponds to where the string comes off the recurve again. and where the 1.7lbs per inch is on the DFC. So getting back into the clicker is elastic and smooth as your pulling 1.9lbs in that last inch for most people opposed to 2.2lbs per inch.
There is about 1/2-1" difference in draw length location of this belly in the DFC between the likes of W&W, Samick and Hoyt bows for this trough, and you can feel that. Thats also where our CX limbs sit, as they have the same style recurve as the likes of the Inno.
All the data is there, you just need to know what it means.

ON another topic

And to squeeze bow tests into a AMO type standard, means the makers will optimise the bow for that test... and everyone else suffers. For example, what happens to a 33" draw, when draw weights are measured at 28"... There can be 2-3lbs difference in draw weights at 33" based on the same 28" draw weight from one bow design to another.

Our arguement has always been, learn whats good in each component, learn what you need and match your kit to it.


----------



## jmvargas (Oct 21, 2004)

greennock said:


> JM,
> 
> Don't know if you ever tried the CRX or 300's but if you did, how do you think these new 550's will be compared to them or will they be just a minor upgrade?


....although i have stopped using hoyt limbs after my M1s i would GUESS that these new 550's should have some improvements over their older wood-core limbs...unless it's all marketing hype again.....

PS..considering the latest post from borderbows i hope you can now appreciate what i mean when i say they have the data......


----------



## jmvargas (Oct 21, 2004)

greennock...just another thought for you..

unless you have reached a certain skill level changing limbs per se may not make any difference in your scores.....it should immediately,however, make a difference in the "feel" of the limbs..

...in my case aside from the improved speed(197 fps vs 191 fps from my winacts of the same #) and feel(much smoother thru the clicker vs even my winex)-- there was also a noticeable difference immediately in the horizontal dispersal of my arrows--ie--smaller groups..(that's the stability effect!)..

PS..i am still in the process of fine tuning both of my borders set-ups (changing to 12-strand strings from 16-strands and smaller nocks...and to a jager grip from the loesch--i told you i am an equipment geek!) and have not tested them yet in competition nor shot practice scores either but am 100% sure that when i do i will improve my PBs....assuming i do my part!!....


----------



## Borderbows (Apr 4, 2009)

Greenock:
Can i also say in the last 2-3 years we have allowed people to return limbs for as little a reason, as they didnt like the colour, or they need to service there car, within 28 days of recieving them.
If we dont meet your expectations, you will get your money back upon return of the product.
(we cant vouch for the postage on that topic as thats the cost to you)

We dont want unhappy people "stuck" with a bad decision.

We even do this on custom made products, and again, if your not happy, you get the choice to give us a second chance or walk away!
Your call. We give ourselves no where to hide!


----------



## greennock (Dec 13, 2007)

You can't do better than that!!

Don't see your price list on your website. Is it there somewhere I can't see?


----------



## Borderbows (Apr 4, 2009)

We have a Dolar, Euro and Pound price list, and with the way the economies are going at the mo, there is no such thing as a standard price at the mo.

Send an email to [email protected] or Skype "Borderbows" for a free phonecall if you want to talk to us direct.


----------



## Shinigami3 (Oct 7, 2009)

greennock said:


> JM,
> 
> Where can I find this verifiable data? I'd like to take a look at it. I don't see it on their website. If they have something they should put it on their site. Maybe they'll need to double their staff from 10 to 20 with the increase in orders if more people find out their performance exceeds the big companies.
> 
> Thanks


I would like to see this too- since I was told about this I have found plenty of statements (mostly about third hand opinions) and claims but no data on Borders. On the other hand I found F/D curves and tech papers on both the Hoyt and W&W sites.


----------



## Shinigami3 (Oct 7, 2009)

I found this REALLY interesting in light of some of the discussion here.
http://margo.student.utwente.nl/sagi/artikel/mathmod/mat2.html


----------



## Borderbows (Apr 4, 2009)

Shinigami3 said:


> I found this REALLY interesting in light of some of the discussion here.
> http://margo.student.utwente.nl/sagi/artikel/mathmod/mat2.html


First of all, our Hex5 is NOT a static recurve. So that report isnt quite up to scratch for what we are discussing here
For example. the reason why a R/D long bow works is because the shape you gain, helps to reduce the limb tip mass. 
So the shape you gain in a working recurve will help reduce mass. this is where the efficency gain starts to work.

We agree there will be a cross over point where the material gained to enhance stability so that futher shape can be added will cross over the point of the gain in stored energy. but we havent found that yet.

There is NO other recurve bow maker workin this little idea. Thats for sure.

That report has found that the mass of the ears does not improve the speed of the bow. BUT those ears are heavy compaired to a working recurve profile.
Or else a working recurve wouldnt be as efficent as it is. 

Take your next quest.
TXG VS INNO

TXG vs Hex5 MK I

There is a bit more preload on the MKII limbs, but that will shotern the DFC by about 1/4 of an inch. so appologies for this ommision.


----------



## Borderbows (Apr 4, 2009)

Shinigami3 said:


> (mostly about third hand opinions)


and no doubt if i had added first hand data, someone would have dismissed it too as its manufacturer data that you cant trust, yet if you use 3rd party info from real people thats also wrong is the source is not verifiable.

Sometimes you cant win. But i will conceed, that if we all had the same opinions then we would live in a boring place!

Worst comes to worst
Shinigami3, (neat profile name, with a funky meaning) nice debate to far. and this is what makes archery interesting for us here at least


----------

