# Bow Arm Shoulder/Back Questions



## UrbanDeerSlayer (Feb 10, 2012)

Looking forward to others input as well, but will add my 2 cents as bow arm is my biggest weakness.

I started using a set bow arm which helps me to keep my bow shoulder solid prior to drawing the bow. Any other style of drawing the bow such as swing draw or whatever made it difficult for me to lock in my bow shoulder. I have to concentrate to make sure my bow shoulder is locked into full expansion and that my bow shoulder is pointed towards the target. I will point the bow towards the target and lock my bow shoulder into full expansion prior to drawing and and then push my bow shoulder towards the target as I am drawing. For me, this ensures proper alignment, full expansion, and no room for my bow shoulder to flop around at release and cause a poor shot. I dol not do this perfectly on every shot, and it does not feel automatic to me yet, but when I do it correctly I get nice repeatable shots right where I am aiming. 

I want to clarify I am pushing my bow shoulder towards the target not my arm. It is easy to push with the bow hand and over extend your elbow, when you want the pushing motion from the shoulder. It takes me alot of practice and I will often get sloppy and pull shots to the left (I am right handed), usually as a result of a bow shoulder that is not solid. I am no coach, nor am I an expert, but this has been helpful to me.

Hopefully some others will add some insight to this thread as I am also eager for assistance with the bow shoulder.


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

Sneaky Fox said:


> #1: After really extended sessions (weekend days), I've found that my bow arm shoulder gets a little tired/sore. Nothing else does - this always gets sore first. I'm wondering if this could be happening just from supporting the weight of the bow. My shoulders have always been much weaker than everything else on me (including my string side back muscles, which don't get tired like the bow arm shoulder). Does this make sense, even though it's only a recurve and not a compound (it's a metal ILF 21" riser)? Or could it be getting sore from the "pushing" motion I'm doing with my swing draw? I'm trying to figure out what I need to strengthen so I can figure out how to!


Based on what you've said...I would suggest you stop using the Swing Draw method of drawing the bow until your shoulder has been strengthened.

Start with your bow arm up near it's proper position before you draw. It's easier on your shoulder.

I would highly suggest you work on strengthening your rotator cuff muscles of BOTH shoulders and work on doing some lateral arm raises for the deltoid muscles.



Sneaky Fox said:


> #2: Everything I read/see says to pull with the back muscles - both back muscles. That makes sense, except for when I put it up against writings like that of G Fred Asbell, who also talks about pushing with the bow arm. What should I be feeling/how do I figure out mentally how to push with the bow arm, while moving the bow arm back muscles in the opposite direction as that push (if that makes sense)? Every time I try to think about pushing towards the target with my bow arm while simultaneously pulling in with my bow arm back muscles, my body and brain get really confused.


The arm pushes while the shoulder and back pulls. There's a balance you need to learn there and achieving the correct alignment can help immensely.

This is what you should try to look like if you want to achieve alignment that makes attaining and maintaining consistency easier.

Ray :shade:


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## UrbanDeerSlayer (Feb 10, 2012)

Ray, 

That last pic is a good one. The rotation has to come from the shoulder to get the proper alignment. Sometimes changing your grip can help with that as well. 

Good stuff!


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

UrbanDeerSlayer said:


> The rotation has to come from the shoulder to get the proper alignment. Sometimes changing your grip can help with that as well.


Exactly :thumbs_up

Ray :shade:


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## Sneaky Fox (Mar 19, 2013)

Thanks guys, that's very helpful! I'll try using a set arm and see what the difference is. Makes sense, I don't know why I didnt think to try that! And thanks for the pictures Ray, they really help to make things clear.


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## Sanford (Jan 26, 2009)

Sneaky Fox said:


> Thanks guys, that's very helpful! I'll try using a set arm and see what the difference is. Makes sense, I don't know why I didnt think to try that! And thanks for the pictures Ray, they really help to make things clear.


Set your bow arm and bow arm to grip alignment BEFORE you raise the arm(s), in a pre-raised position in front of you, extended but down with light tension on the string. Raise both, draw side and string side together, then begin your draw. Push/pull can be confusing depending on how it's being described. Although the back never stops pulling on the hold, the front is raised and braced extending toward the target. It can help to think more in terms of brace/hold over a physical push/pull, which can lead to inconsistent balance in sides, especially right at the moment of release.


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## Viper1 (Aug 21, 2003)

SF - 

What Sanford said. 

If you've never shot a bow before, then yes the physical weight of the bow can be the culprit.
If you've shot a compound before, then probably not. 

Problem is that we can't see you, things like raising (ridding) the bow shoulder can get painful in more ways than one, so could alignment issues. 

Using both back muscles, squeezing the shoulder blades together with the rhomboids may work in some cases, but can usually do more hard than good. (Resulting in a flailing bow arm on release.)
A low bow shoulder from the outset, and using the string side rhomboids (there two of them on each side) to help the draw, while the bow side back muscles, in concert with the chest and shoulder muscles stabilize the bow arm is usually more efficient. 

Sounds good right? 
Sure, but who the heck knows where their rhomboids are or what they feel like? (Well some of us do, but it doesn't really help.)
Starting with a preset draw like Sanford described, once at anchor, keep pulling but think about the string side shoulder blade moving towards the spine. 
That's pretty much it. 
The tricky part is that pull has to be maintained AFTER the string is gone - that's the follow-through. And that's where back tension really comes into play. 

Viper1 out.


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## UrbanDeerSlayer (Feb 10, 2012)

Viper and anybody else,

The flailing bow arm is my occasional vice. It would seem sometimes I try too hard to lock in the bow shoulder and push too hard towards the target resulting in a flail at release and a shot that would have otherwise been perfect but is now left of center (I am right handed). 

There is a fine line between too much tension and not enough on the bow shoulder. What advice can you give to remedy the flailing bow shoulder?


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## Arron (Nov 18, 2012)

http://youtu.be/5XbPs7d1_iQ

Bow arm, elbow, shoulder the whole alignment picture is something I have been really trying to concentrate on for the past 3 weeks. A couple of weeks back I ran across this video of Brady Ellison shooting and how he addressed the target, draws and shoots. Now I am not shooting Olympic style but I thought I might give that draw and set a try with a side of the face anchor. I still did my normal sequence of set bow hand, set consistent string hand now instead of raising my bow hand holding it addressing the target and drawing I switched it to more of what Brady Ellison does for draw and set. So for the past 2 weeks working on this it seems to help in keeping my bow shoulder down, helps in setting my proper alignment. It also showed up in a better score on a 300 round for me as well. A personal best of 241 at 20 yards.


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## Viper1 (Aug 21, 2003)

Urban -

Trying to lock the bow shoulder is one of the biggest mistakes you can make on that side of the body.
(The bow is just stronger, faster and in a lot of cases smarter than we are.)
Think of the bow arm being dead, or rather just stabilized by alignment and minimal muscle tone.
Combine that with only actively pulling from the strings side back muscles, will work most of the time. 
Some people suggest actively pushing the bow forward towards the target, which just helps to better the alignment.
It works well for some folks, and less for others, worth a try. 

Viper1 out.


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

UrbanDeerSlayer said:


> There is a fine line between too much tension and not enough on the bow shoulder. What advice can you give to remedy the flailing bow shoulder?


In some cases...the flailing bow arm is a result of an equal and opposite reaction of a poor release.

It's really hard to diagnose your issue without actually seeing you shoot.

I would suggest videoing yourself, take pictures of your form from different perspectives at full draw, compare it to some of the pics I posted regarding alignment and work at The Blank Bale until you feel that consistentcy develop in your bow arm and shoulder.

Ray :shade:


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## bradd7 (Oct 17, 2008)

I'm getting into this post, not so much as to 'tell how to do something' but more seeking corrections, advice and information, even though it may come off as 'tell'.

First off I hate the word 'tension' and 'locked' has been used improperly. The more relaxed a person is, the better they can do anything, including archery. So to me 'tension' should be 'gentle pressure' and 'locked' should be 'relaxed hold at extension'. The more 'effortlessly gentle' we are in the movements, the more relaxed we stay from beginning to end.

Push/Pull method can be thought of as 'opening up the bow' from a higher point than center. What is does is to help the *lower* back lat muscles and scapula come to the correct places, as most (wrongly) use the upper scapula for tension. To get the feeling of the back muscles used correctly, hold arms at shoulder height with elbows bent in towards mouth and GENTLY pull elbows straight down without pulling back (which arches the back). Rest there for a few seconds and you'll feel the body transfer the weight from the upper scapula to the lower portion, more around the waist, as your stomach muscles relax. This is the 'natural' feeling/position.

There is an easy way to determine (feel) the back muscles working properly that was just taught to me.
Again, hold arms up shoulder height, while bring fingers on both hands to touch center of mouth. At this position you are probably feeling the upper back muscles working...that's wrong.
Without moving hands, turn head to side (you should immediately 'feel' bow shoulder do down and slightly back as the bottom of the lat on that side comes into play.
Open up hands as if aiming, with bow hand/arm in correct position, while maintaining the muscle below the bow arm muscle being relaxed/locked. Do not 'push' the bow arm out -just simply straighten it while staying relaxed but solid. You should feel the lat muscles below become relaxed but 'locked'.
While maintaining this position of relaxation but solid, GENTLY bring the draw hand down to the shoulder, then back up to mid neck/head as if you've just finished the shot. You will 'feel' the lower lat muscle on this side bring the scapula down and around naturally.

It's these relaxed 'feelings' that need to be maintained through the routine and checked at pre-check time for relaxation. Any unnatural body movements or tension will eventually cause an indicator (usually pain).

Again, the more 'natural' the movements, the more relaxed the movements will become...and this is the 'individuality' in form that most talk about.

AS I mentioned, not 'telling' just looking for comments, suggestions and more info on how to do it better for me.


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## UrbanDeerSlayer (Feb 10, 2012)

Thanks I will try all suggestions. Hopefully, I am not hijacking this thread, I thought about starting another thread but then figured to just add here as others and the OP may benefit from this discussion as well. 

I have not taken video but shoot often with Kegan who will critique me as needed. I will get sloppy on bow shoulder alignment and rotation, worsening with fatigue. My release, although not perfect, I dont think is contributing, I rarely throw shots right, but I can line them up in horizontal line from the center to the left of center. So its not an aiming or TP issue. Its not a tuning issue either as I will do the same with even weak shafts. It is remedied somewhat shooting a heavier mass riser and loosening my grip on the bow. But appears to be mainly an issue of improper bow shoulder tension, either too much or too little. At times, I think im just over thinking it and making it worse. I try to think about it as the bow shoulder has to have the proper tension without being tense. In other words, although we are trying to achieve proper tension, the muscles actually have to be simultaneously relaxed and stress free. Sounds easy but difficult to achieve.

I will hit the bail to work on this. Thanks.


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## bradd7 (Oct 17, 2008)

* In other words, although we are trying to achieve proper tension, the muscles actually have to be simultaneously relaxed and stress free. Sounds easy but difficult to achieve.*

That's what I was trying to explain because it the hardest part for me also and just reinforcing to ME what I need to do today! HAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

Viper mentioned something important: If the bow is even a bit too heavy the shoulder can creep up towards the cheek, cause a misalignment and get sore quickly...especially more noticeable when tired.
Another great tip that I learned is that to never shoot until you are beginning to feel any tiredness. Always leave the session with a good 'natural' group and stop trying to chase one when tired as the good group has psychological benefits, whereas after that it's 'try to fix' me time that can carry over into the next session and start it our in fear, apprehension, frustration or over-thinking. Be your best cheerleader!!!


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## UrbanDeerSlayer (Feb 10, 2012)

Oops, double post


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## UrbanDeerSlayer (Feb 10, 2012)

Update. Kudos to the suggestions. Definitely was over thinking it and pushing too hard to "lock in the shoulder". Started with a set bow arm pointing towards the target but with a relaxed shoulder. As I drew the bow straight back I extended the bow shoulder towards the target. This gave me good alignment but with a relaxed and low shoulder. Was shooting them dead on. I believe that I tend to over tense the bow shoulder and therefore possibly overexpand and flail the the bow arm out at release. The remedy was as prescribed by Viper in post #11. A seemingly easy solution that is not easy for me to replicate. More bail work is in order. Stay loose and keep a steady bow arm. Thanks.


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## kegan (Aug 28, 2006)

UrbanDeerSlayer said:


> Update. Kudos to the suggestions. Definitely was over thinking it and pushing too hard to "lock in the shoulder". Started with a set bow arm pointing towards the target but with a relaxed shoulder. As I drew the bow straight back I extended the bow shoulder towards the target. This gave me good alignment but with a relaxed and low shoulder. Was shooting them dead on. I believe that I tend to over tense the bow shoulder and therefore possibly overexpand and flail the the bow arm out at release. The remedy was as prescribed by Viper in post #11. A seemingly easy solution that is not easy for me to replicate. More bail work is in order. Stay loose and keep a steady bow arm. Thanks.


There you go! If you make it Sunday I'll have the camera for some video reference.


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## bradd7 (Oct 17, 2008)

Bail work...tell me about it! ukey:

My bail is inside my door and only a few steps away from my backyard shooting lane. I walk through the door and shoot the bail almost perfectly, then swing around outside at the target and just can't get it right. On and on for the whole day, form was perfect at 10 feet, screwy towards 20 yards....today was a heavy cursing day...but my bow still loves me! HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!


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## Sneaky Fox (Mar 19, 2013)

Wow, there's too much here to even say thanks for. Starting with a raised set arm helped a lot, as did remembering that things should be relaxed. Viper - thank you so very much for your detailed posts, walking through them has seemed to improve things already. I've now realized I was getting some weirdness in my bow arm shoulder and doing some weird things, having it raise up on me a little bit and get tense because I was thinking about it too much and trying to force the right thing into happening over there.

This has so many great comments, my continued thanks to all.


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## RodB (Nov 23, 2006)

Make sure your bow arm has the elbow slightly bent... and the elbow actually pointing towards the ground... slightly angled away from your midline. All the force of the bow at the base of your thumb. ... good consistent anchor... good luck,

RodB


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## steve morley (Dec 24, 2005)

Two simple things that give me a strong/stable Bowarm, is during setup I do a conscious check that front shoulder is low/relaxed and when I'm at Anchor aiming I'm reaching out towards the target e.g. trying to touch it, it keeps everything on the front end very controlled. Keep it simple and just thinking of reaching towards the target becomes automatic within a few weeks, just very simple mental trigger steps in your shot sequence, too much thinking about details can cause as many issues as not thinking at all. lol

It came from shooting a low mass Longbow, you have to work the front end to keep control of the bow. Here is an example from 2010 worlds, difficult downhill shot, watch the bowhand movement on release.


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## steve morley (Dec 24, 2005)

Shooting Recurve with a sling makes life easier, less chance of torque and you know if your being lazy with bow arm, dont push into the target (you can push the front shoulder up and out of alignment), just visualize reaching out to it with you bowhand, this is enough to keep everything controlled.


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## UrbanDeerSlayer (Feb 10, 2012)

We've, I believe you have hit on something here. I was shooting my one piece longbow yesterday and was pulling shots left. I believe I was pushing too hard towards the target, combined with the low mass bow, im getting some poor alignment and possible flailing. I like the "reach out to touch" the target as "pushing" makes me work too hard. Very difficult to maintain a properly aligned and relaxed bow arm especially when shooting the longbow. I also believe it worsens when shooting wood shafts which seem less forgiving to me. 

One question: my longbow is cut 1/8 left of center. This is not a tuning question, but rather if I tend to pull shots left would a bow with center cut or past center cut be less forgiving (help to reduce leftward shooting)?


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## submarinokotbw (Aug 8, 2011)

This is a very helpful thread. Thanks to all of you. I have really been struggling with my bow arm lately. From the above advice I have noticed quite a bit of improvement, just in a single session.


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## Viper1 (Aug 21, 2003)

sub -

Not wanting to rain on your parade, but the real test is to see if it continues to work over the next few sessions, or longer.
Too many times, just changing something, anything, will give a temporary improvement, the trick is to see if it's lasting or not.

If you don't mind me asking, what is your draw length and arrow length?

Viper1 out.


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## Boberau (Dec 15, 2009)

Good thread. Must say, there's no substitute for exercises to the upper body - shoulders, back, chest, triceps, and yes, even the biceps. One must realize that drawing a bow is not natural, and it is not symmetrical in that it doesn't use all the opposing muscle groups. 

Not only do exercises strengthen your muscles for better shooting, but if done correctly, will work opposing muscle groups so you don't get your muscles out of balance. There is really no substitute for a good exercise program. 

If you look at the pictures put up by Black Wolf, you will see an angle between the bow arm and the arrow, which is parallel to the line of draw. This is why you do use lots of shoulder muscles and even chest muscles. And, rotator cuff muscles get a good workout also - you really don't want to cause problems with those.

You may want to drop down in draw weight until you can build some muscles.

Good luck.


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