# how much cheating do you see in local 3d shoots?



## gobblengrunt (May 23, 2006)

I have noticed over the years that i've seen many local type clubs/ shoots have particular local person(s) put up amazing scores yet they fall apart during a shoot off or they only shoot with thier buddies. These "amazing" shooters only shoot thier local club and never shoot an ibo or national event. Is it me or does a lot of clubs have local "hero" shooters which thier scores show obvious cheating? I have shot many national events over the country in my lifetime and have never seen a first place score well above the rest of the crowd or a particular shooter dominate thier class on multiple events. What does a shooter get out of putting up a score he didnt actually shoot? For me, i have had great days and I have had worse, but I always want to know my true and actual score to compare with other shooters and within myself. Just a little venting!


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## CarbonExtreme (Jul 7, 2010)

Not a lot of cheating...just a lot of cheating by the same people. Wish groups were busted more, but I know people at the local level are out to have fun. At least the State/National shoots are busted up pretty good (ASA).


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## WhitBri (Jan 30, 2007)

I think there is some pencil whipping going on that I've seen and disgusts me. I think some of it is the home course advantage as well. Most clubs around here don't vary their course a whole lot. If you're one of those locals that have shot the same course over and over, you're not tricked by yardage and pretty much shooting it known yardage. Now to a new guy to this course it looks like they cheated, but in reality its just home course advantage. Granted these same guys would also probably fail under the pressure of a shootdown or a national event.


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## hankw_2009 (Apr 2, 2009)

i agree with the group on there is always a pencil pushers... but that is not the only form of cheating in question i see a lot of people cheating there equipment even at IBO events.... i have scene hunter class shooters moving there sight on the course, i have scene stabilizers over 12" long, and glue in tips when it is suppose to be a screw in system.... i dont want to seem like i am picking on the hunter class but its one of the biggest groups and it is what i shoot so that is what i see and on most of the courses there are no range officials to question....sorry i rambled and last but not lease what about the shooters that should be in higher classes but keep shooting in low classes so the always have the highest scores... sorry if i sound stupid but its my 2 cents.....


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## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

Local level it happens. Good clubs do there best to prevent it. Only way you can stop is do shootgun starts and break the groups up.
DB


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

To the following; We have trophy shoots every shoot. 1st place trophy stands 17" tall, so not bad. I would guess 65% to maybe 75% who win or place collect their trophy.

Cheating is not as much as it seems with reports in here. And in here it well seems it gets blown out of proportion. At about 10 years serving as Sec/Trea for our club I've had one case where a guy purposely inflated his score - as if a addition error. Caught twice he blew his cool; "What the h___ do you do, check every score?" I said; "Yep." He has never returned. Another was said to be padding his score with "close enough." This being sort of a aggreement with the group he shot with, but complaints were noted. I put a "judge" with the group and he didn't do so good. As some of his friends stopped shooting with him perhaps he got the message.

Local shoots, group busting and shotgun starts don't go well. People come to enjoy friends and shooting and no one wants to start "on the dot." Okay, local shoots are "walk-ins."


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## outdoorkid1 (Nov 20, 2010)

There is very little cheating involved in the 4-h shoots. Stuff like they say its a 10 but its just barly out of the line. Doesn't happen very often though.


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## ohiobullseye (Feb 6, 2011)

I know of a few cheaters at some of the local shoots. It is the same people and I don't care because I know when I shoot with them I beet them.


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## 12sonly (Jan 6, 2007)

No matter what you do your going to have cheaters,our club and coalition promotes having fun.we've tried money and trophy classes.


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## gutpyls (Jan 4, 2006)

to my disgust, there will always be the element of cheating no doubt. as for me I used to burn up the local courses and then when I went to the bigger shoots I would fall apart due to tournament nerves. I would come home and my buddies would ask how come I shot like crap after how well I'd shot here at home. there were some cases where I couldnt even hold the pin still on my target. sometimes there are factors that cause the local heros to muff a shoot. when I got over my panic I started shooting like I was used to, but yes, there will always be cheating and we all have to deal with it.


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## wsbark01 (Feb 26, 2009)

The best we have here is a guy who will turn in a 310 to 330 every shoot, then when a club guy goes out with him he shoots a 250???? The very next shoot he turns back in a 324??? Does he think that the club is that stupid? This guy and a couple more are the reason that they quit giving out money, now you get a free shoot!


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## Tonto79 (Feb 13, 2011)

I've only been shooting 3D for about two months now, and I've seen this happen. It's sad to know that a piece of shiny plastic is worth 
the price of your honor. The only way to stop it is to have a judge at every target, and that will never happen, so there will always be 
an element of scumbagism ( I know it's not a word, but it works in this situation hahaha).


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## Hoosier bowman (Jan 10, 2010)

I see lots of it. I even see lots of range finders at some. PPL just don't get it. It kinda ruins the sport for some other serious shooters.


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## NC3dshooter (Apr 24, 2011)

There will always be some pencil pushing going on, But I agree with Sonny, if you start having shotgun starts all the time and making it hard on the honest shooters a lot of people will quit. My local range has almost killed itself because of it.. This year they started back having walk ins,and the number of shooter picked up a little.. What I see the worst about cheaters is shooter that no one has ever heard of show up and win, with a huge score. I shoot the hunter class and see a lot of people breaking the rules with equipment .At the local shoots its always the same one's at the top, and there at the top at every local shoot they go to. Why should we honest shooter's have to suffer because of a couple of cheaters?? I say let them alone and they will slip up and make a mistake


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## super* (Jan 26, 2008)

well it depends some clubs or leagues only score 10 rings like the club i shoot at and i have only shoot two 8s in 8 weeks but i go to many shoots and i put my time in on being good but there are people who shoot realy high scores alone but when they shoot in a grounp there is quite a difference in score


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## Jargon (Apr 23, 2011)

I'm new to the 3D touney's but not to bowhunting. My dad and I were talking about this recently. We were thinking that we were going to start bringing our rangefinder, and shooting for "kill" shots (think its weird on a lot of targets a gut shot is a 10 or 12 and I'm not talking about back kills because I understand trying to extend the life of those expensive targets), and *not *turn in our scores. We are doing it for fun and to practice for hunting. Thinking we would guess the yardage then range it to see how close we are. Same as hunting where 90% of the time you are ranging the animal, or pre-ranging area then take the shot. 

Our feeling was, that there was might be lot of cheating going on how am I suppose to know? For me, why spend all that time, effort, and money to become a "true" 3d tourney shooter to get beat by zero oversight and "suspect" scores?

This weekend we shot and one of the events, was search and destroy, they had 8 targets out on that course, I was amazed how many people found every one. Granted I am new to the event, and not saying some didn't/couldn't find them all but I wonder how many shooters would have "found" 8 if they only put 7 out? 

What do you think? I mean it sounds like others feel the same as I do. Again, it wouldn't matter if they had scorers at every target for me, because I still wouldn't win anything, but it is hard to want to excel at a sport when you question its purity.


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## asa_low12 (Mar 15, 2008)

Wasn't this exact same question not asked in the exact same words not very long ago?


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## cbrunson (Oct 25, 2010)

We have a local guy who broke 3 arrows at an indoor shoot, missing targets completely. (max 27 yds). Then two weeks later, won the outdoor open class with 625 out of 640 possible points. The outdoor had 60+yd shots, through trees, with 10-15mph wind. What sucks about that, is that most of the really good shooters don't turn their scores in because they know the top two or three are liars most of the time. I shoot for fun and don't let it bug me. The league I shoot is known yardage, scored by a club officer. Those bring out the shooters.


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## MiniOzzy3 (Mar 25, 2011)

I quit shoot my bow in the mid 1990's because of my hunting partner was always cheating/lying. Just absolutely embarrassed me, to be with him at shoots. But now I have kids and they heard me talking about how much fun the sport was. So I bought my eldest daughter a bow and just had to grab one for myself. lol.... We just attended a local shoot and she had a absolute blast.

Plain and simple. Its like golf! Do it for your personal enjoyment.... And shoot for your personal best.


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## Bo Bob (Feb 12, 2004)

Will always be guys who desire the high score so bad that they score "closes". I've sen guys light it up and then shoot with others and all of the sudden they score with the "normal" guys.


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## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

Bad thing for me with local and national events. Is often we all know cheating happening and nothing is done about it. It blown under the rug. That is by far the worse thing for 3d archery. Then if some archers speak up and demand rules be enforced and cheaters be DQ or banned there often the bad guys. 
DB


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## XForce Girl (Feb 14, 2008)

Daniel Boone said:


> Bad thing for me with local and national events. Is often we all know cheating happening and nothing is done about it. It blown under the rug. That is by far the worse thing for 3d archery. Then if some archers speak up and demand rules be enforced and cheaters be DQ or banned there often the bad guys.
> DB


Ain't that the truth!! I'm usually the "Bad Guy" too.

I rarely turn in my score cards, mostly shoot for fun. Most shoots around here don't even have a women's open class, they say shoot what you bring. I just don't feel right shooting in the hunter class with my scope and long stabilizer. So, I shoot the fun class and don't worry about my score.
I use the local shoots to practice for the shoots that matter.


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## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

XForce Girl said:


> Ain't that the truth!! I'm usually the "Bad Guy" too.
> 
> I rarely turn in my score cards, mostly shoot for fun. Most shoots around here don't even have a women's open class, they say shoot what you bring. I just don't feel right shooting in the hunter class with my scope and long stabilizer. So, I shoot the fun class and don't worry about my score.
> I use the local shoots to practice for the shoots that matter.



Those that cheat will just keep on doing it because there nothing to stop them. Quess some how they justify it in there minds it Ok.
Often understand why the Spot shooters and NFAA guys say they don't shoot 3d because of the cheating on all levels. Because even on the national level they dont do anything about it. Even the manufactuers just want to avoid it even on there own staff shooters, 
that even worse.
DB


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## PHSJason (Jun 3, 2007)

At our last shoot, we started using course officials. We had both marked (armbands) and unmarked people on the course helping with scoring, looking for violations etc. We made sure that this point was known at the shooters meeting both days. I also walked the courses backwards and surprised quite a few groups when I walked-up and said 'Hi'. I never saw any violations and had a good time talking to people. I got to meet a lot of nice folks and people truly seemed to like having officials on the courses.

Result was lower scores turned in(this could also be due to harder courses). We had lots of shoot-offs due to ties (which is always fun) and out money dot hit rate was LOW... As in one target didn't get hit once over the whole weekend. In contrast, in previous years, money dots have payed as low as .50 cents, this year, our lowest payout was $6.00.


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## 3-D Quest (Jan 26, 2007)

This thread speaks volumes for the moral decay of our society.
There was a time when the archery community was some of the most pleasant honest people you would ever want to be around. It's a shame that the subject of cheating in archery is even discussed. Oh, I know, cheating dates as far back as man's roots, but it don't make it right.
By and far, I'd still take a day shooting my bow with a bunch of good friends than...just about, anything else. The thing is, until people quit turning their back on cheating(be that bad guy)and shoot against themselves for a personal best, it will never end!
I shoot in the Sr Open class now and have seen less cheating. I've only confronted the issue a couple of times
with someone in my group and you don't have to get out of the box to do so. MOST people can't stand the embarresment of the group focused on them.
When it comes to trophies, California starts are fine. But, when there is money involved you should have busted groups, 2 score cards and no less than 3 to a group.


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