# push pull question???



## oldgeez (Sep 29, 2002)

trying to push pull to get my bt to go off a little smoother. it's hard to keep my hand and bow arm relaxed with that slight push going on!! i can feel muscle groups coming into play. i don't know how anyone can make this work??


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## Garceau (Sep 3, 2010)

Voodoo......


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## da white shoe (Mar 10, 2009)

"Push/pull" is a term I've heard in relation to shooting recurves and longbows. Maybe you can explain the philosophy behind the technique.

I know that when I shoot, I relax every muscle that I can... as much as I can. I only use my hands and arms as static devises to "brace" the bow at full draw. The shot is triggered by flexing back muscles to cause a nearly imperceptable amount of increase in your draw length... thereby triggering the release.

To find these muscles, have someone stand facing you while you pretend to hold a bow at full draw. Have them grasp your elbows and try to gently force you to give them a hug while you resist, all the while keeping your arms relaxed. The back muscles you feel resisting are the ones you need to flex to trigger the release. All other muscles should be relaxed as fully as possible.


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## RoxieTrees (Dec 12, 2011)

oldgeez said:


> trying to push pull to get my bt to go off a little smoother. it's hard to keep my hand and bow arm relaxed with that slight push going on!! i can feel muscle groups coming into play. i don't know how anyone can make this work??


You don't want to push with your bow arm. You want your bow shoulder in a low position, so you can see the cup of your rotator cuff and your deltoids. Relax all that. Practice by putting both hands straight out to your sides, bend your release arm elbow until you touch your chest, and practice pulling your elbow back, away from your body in a straight line. Memorize the muscles you're using to do this motion, which will be just in between your shoulder blade and spine, pulling your blade to your spine, and do the same on your release.









Sent from my LG-P925 using Tapatalk


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## subconsciously (Aug 22, 2009)

Part of my shot process is to "reach" for the target...not so much a push. It puts a slight amount of tension around the lat area. This helps me keep my pin rock steady within the 5-7 second range during the shot.

different strokes different folks.


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## deermecca (Dec 14, 2011)

*Common misconceptions*

First, I must say, I am not an expert, nor do I claim to be an expert... I have shot 300 rounds, 3d, etc. but I am a hunter at heart and just love to fling arrows at targets, spots, 3d etc.

First, there seem to be a lot of things being changed in your "technique" at one time. Our mind can only handle seriously doing one thing at a time. Especially when we are trying new things, how are you going to know what works if you try more than one new thing at a time.

Try one thing at a time to see if it is something that is improving your shooting. The end result is more important than whether you "want" to do it or not. for example... "i don't like shooting with a peep site, esp. in low light, but I do it simply because i know i can pop can at 30-40 yards with a peep. with no peep, I'm prolly not going to be able to do that."

I do agree with everyone about the aiming half (bow arm) must be as relaxed as possible at the time of release, and follow through till you audibly hear the arrow hit the target. 

For Me, It is easiest to explain as this. 
Stand with your bow arm shoulder facing the wall, arms length away. 
Straighten fingers/arm straight toward the ground. Begin to raise arm straight away from your body like a birdwing.
Stop at midchest, your straightened fingers should be below your shoulder like you were patting a young child on the head.
Now keep the bow arm slightly running downhill take your straightened fingers and bend your hand back at your wrist, put a classic hand print on the wall, lean on it for a min, and relax. could lean on this wall forever right, the index finger should be pointing straight up to the ceiling.
Now keep the same arm and shoulder rotation and draw a bow from there. Basically instead of thumbs up, it should be thumbs sideways. This can initially be harder to draw high poundage. so you may need to take a couple turns off at the beginning. but u will build it back in a week or two if you can shoot 2-3 times a week. 

ok, now the back tension thing. the best advice I can give you is "get it and rip it" 
get your site picture on target. initiate your "go" command, and

Pull straight back like you are slowly going to pull the limbs off the bow. 
just keep pulling, just keep pulling. (= if it doesn't go off in 2-3 seconds then it is set too stiff.
Just pull straight back through, like you were trying to "over draw the bow" 
simple goodies hope that it might help. Took me years, and many many ?s of many many VERY good shooters to learn these techniques


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## aread (Dec 25, 2009)

I see that you live in Atlanta. 

George Ryals runs the Archery Learning Center in Snellville. He can explain this to you in person much better than any of use can through the forum. 

The concept is really pretty easy, but without someone to watch you, it's difficult know if you are actually doing it like you think you are. 

George is know as GRIV here on AT. 

Allen


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## archer60x (Nov 24, 2008)

I shoot back tension with a low locked bow arm, bone on bone as Bernie Pellerite would say with relaxed muscles. My bow arm has a natural bend in it, not too much though. The people that I have seen successfully using the "push / pull" method have a shortened draw length which causes their bow arm to have a lot of bend in it. This causes the bow to be pushed while you pull on your release and at release the bow and bow arm goes forward. Bernie says about 10% of the good archers out there shoot this way. I tried it and I can't get it to work properly, I have enough problem trying to shoot subconsciously while concentrating on the bullseye. I believe it takes quite a bit of skill to achieve the consistancy necessary to be successful. You need to have equal pressure pushing as you do pulling or you will cosistantly shoot left or right. I think that will be the challenge, equal pressure. On another note, the low locked bow arm sometimes appears to have a push pull affect when the shot goes off because of the tension on the bow at holding weight. I agree with AREAD above, it would be better for an expert to assist you and watch your form to be able to suggest the proper corrections required. Good luck!


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## slicer (Dec 18, 2008)

I think an active Push/Pull is better suited for index wrist straps, Evo, and Element pull tension releases.


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## mike 66 (Jan 21, 2010)

lets see, i never saw a shooting machine that pushed the bow. and they can hit the same hole shot after shot......


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## SpotShy (Mar 14, 2005)

There is no "push" in archery, only pull. The bow arm remains static with bone to bone contact. The shoulder is pushed into the shoulder girdle from the weight of the poundage held & the back tension applied from the release side of the body. The only motion at the shot is the scapula on the release side through contraction of the rhombus muscle in the back. That motion is very slight. 

If you are pushing with the bow arm than you will have instability and inconsistency. The key to the back tension release is exact draw length, a relaxed shooting hand and forearm, relaxed shoulders and strong contraction on the draw side rhombus muscle. Personally, when I call the shoot to order I try to imagine I am attempting to break the limbs on the bow with my back muscle while lowering the tension in my hand and forearm. The toughest part of back tension for most is learning to focus on the target while learning to use the back muscle. That is why training on a blank bale or training with a trainer or a full moon cam with eyes closed is so critical. You have to learn to feel the shot. It takes repetition. Be the turtle and not the hare.


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## oldgeez (Sep 29, 2002)

yeah, i love the grivster, but unfortunately he is in business, and he is not cheap. i am poor on fixed income. i was over at the chicken house last night and a really good 300 vegas shooter told me to tighten up the shot a lot. he said whimpy doesn't work. i have tried this before, and it introduced too much tension in the shot. so for years i've tried to relax everything..especially my bow arm and hand. so i said what the heck..it can't get much worse, so i tightened up my bow arm, not so much the hand and wrist, but the forearm/elbow connection, and began to really pull hard into the stops. this used to cause things to unravel, but last night things got a lot better very quickly. no flyer 8's, none even close to the red, and shot 10 points better. i wasn't pushing, just tensioning things up. the pse i'm shooting only has 70% let-off. so it's making me much stronger. my friend shoots 72 #'s indoors and drills almost every shot, so strength, it seems, has a lot to do with it. i'm getting older, and over the years, i've learned to relax too much. the dot is still very steady, so i'm hitting where the pin is when the shot breaks, like it used to, lol. there's light at the end of the tunnel..before i thought it was an oncoming train.


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## oldgeez (Sep 29, 2002)

i have read over this thread several times and never noticed what roxie said about tensioning the scapula or shoulder blade. i have never done this and have started "locking down" the shoulder blade and aligning the drawing elbow with the arrow at initial draw back. this has helped a lot with lefts and rights, as now, i believe my hand is coming straighter back upon release. the slight pretensioning of the bow arm has helped a lot with ups and downs...mostly ups. relaxing release hand and bow hand consciously in preshot propraming has helped a little. i'm still getting right misses (i'm a lefty). so i must be pushing still...can't figure it out..it's transient (1 out of 5), too frequent for my tastes, lol


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## aread (Dec 25, 2009)

John Dudley has several articles posted on his website that deal with this. 

http://www.dudleyarchery.info/index.php?option=com_phocadownload&view=category&id=1&Itemid=56

If you can't work with someone in person, John's articles are more clearly written than most others I've come across. 

Also, Larry Wise has a Core Archery video to go along with his Core Archery book. IMO, the video is better than the book. It's really good on BT execution.

Hope this helps,
Allen


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## sightmaster (Jul 1, 2011)

oldgeez said:


> trying to push pull to get my bt to go off a little smoother. it's hard to keep my hand and bow arm relaxed with that slight push going on!! i can feel muscle groups coming into play. i don't know how anyone can make this work??


take dw down


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