# Asa London shot



## Luv2shoot3D (Feb 4, 2013)

We could not make it so how was it how was the power line this year


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## 3SixtyOutdoors (Sep 14, 2012)

Practice range was real dark and very hard to see. H and G were set better and much easier to see.


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## carlosii (Feb 25, 2007)

Something close to 2,000 registered shooters.

Weather was pretty good with some rain. Can't speak to the powerlines.


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## jimb (Feb 17, 2003)

great


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## jimb (Feb 17, 2003)

good shootdown, 3 shooters tied at 500 points, final arrow and Gomez wins.


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## 3dbowmaster (Sep 16, 2005)

The power line seemed to be straight uphill and about 4 miles long lol Rough on a fatboy!!!!


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## ar1220 (May 18, 2014)

It was dark in the bottom where we started this morning after the sun came on up it was fine.


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## woodyw333 (Feb 9, 2010)

Power line was well.... The power line, hot with the typical sun and shadows.. I thought the course was set pretty good. It is my opinion that with the increasing number of shooters, especially in Open C that they should try to find another place to set an Open C range or have more shooters shoot on Friday.


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## sagecreek (Jul 15, 2003)

Kentucky venue was great. Only problem I see they will have is enough parking. It was over max on Saturday. 

Speaking of Open C, that 40 yard class was at 260 shooters, 6 to a stake. Miserable for those guys. I would suggest they have a unknown 40 Open class and a known 40. Seriously.


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## Garceau (Sep 3, 2010)

Honestly the practice range was a waste of money to me. I shot it Thursday afternoon and it was really bad. 

I never even bothered the next few days, everyone I asked said it was impossible to see anything.

I shot up on the powerlines for the first time in a few years - it is exactly what I remembered. Hot, and dusty. Got up there Saturday for my 11am start time about 1040 and waited a few hours because of Open C having so many shooters. They had 8 targets to go when we arrived. So that added to the heat and length of the day for me.

I didn't have to many issues with seeing targets or excessive glare in the powerlines. thought the course was very easy in K45 compared to what I was used to, but according to my score card it wasn't that easy.....LOL


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## Kstigall (Feb 24, 2004)

Well the practice range was much less than desirable which was very predictable since the Sims range has always received terrible reviews using the same location. 

In years past I simply did not shoot the Sims course but rather spent all my time on the practice range. I'm none too happy they decide to swap the Sims and practice range locations! Anyone that had been to this London shoot previously KNEW in advance that unless they changed the lanes that the practice range would suck just as the Sims range has in the past!

Now we are in the predicament of either NOT practicing or paying multiple times to shoot the Sims range......... I sure hope that getting more money from the Sims range is not the reason they swapped the locations! The Sims course is an "option" while using a quality practice range is a must. We can do with out the Sims ranges but the practice ranges are absolutely necessary.

For the most part the venue is awesome but the ranges they used in the past for the Sims and that are now used for the practice range lag FAR, FAR behind Gainesville, Uchee Creek, Culman and Metropolis! The practice range is simply terrible compared to the others. I haven't been to Paris, TX so I can't make a comparison.

I know the folks in Kentucky work very hard to create a great tournament and I think they have done a terrific job with all the competition ranges and all the other components of the venue excluding this years practice range. I'm sorry but this years practice range did not come anywhere near meeting the standards of all the other aspects of the tournament. The fairgrounds has a LOT going for it but it _seriously _lags in this one area. 

I honestly do not mean to insult the work or the efforts of the people that have done so much to produce the ranges or tournament! I hope no one takes my comments personally.


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## remwin (Sep 11, 2013)

I shot I & J ranges (Bow Novice, Max 30, both in the power line) and this was my first ASA shoot.

Compared to some of the local shoots I've been to, I thought the targets were in extremely dark areas, even when the sun came out. Yardages seemed to average right in the middle of the range (25 or so) where as a lot of the other shoots I've been to tend to be on the far end of the range (27-30.) 

It felt like a lot of the dark targets (chamois, javelina, black panther) were set out at longer distances which made them even more difficult in the shade.

Overall, I thought it was great. Cramming that many people into such a small space, we moved efficiently and didn't have to wait much at all. The range was not overly difficult, but not super easy and I think the scores reflected that. 434 won Bow Novice, 432 was 2nd, then everyone else packed in behind them. 423 was 3rd, an even 400 got you in the top 50.


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## Dr.Dorite (Oct 27, 2008)

Considering the fact that it was the largest 3D event that I have, over the years, ever had the pleasure of attending, which I think had close to 2,000 shooters, it was in my opinion an awesome event. Also, the entire ASA staff really was, in my opinion, so very friendly, consciensious, and professional, as they all seem to really enjoy helping all the shooters, spectators and vendors. Even as it was evident to me, and I was aware that some of the officials were really trying hard to take some of the load off Mike, as he seems to be everywhere, and doing anything necessary to keep the event running smootlhy. I can't begin to imagine who or how many it would require to replace the man, and can only hope that as ASA continues to grow, that we will continue to have the man, and his services. Thanks to the entire ASA organization. Claude


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## rattlinman (Dec 30, 2004)

Two folks I know said the tourney as a whole was good but the powerline range was well, the powerline range.

I was unable to attend this one and was hoping to follow along on Bowjunky....but it appears there was a predicament? Is that a done deal?


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## Kstigall (Feb 24, 2004)

Dr.Dorite said:


> Considering the fact that it was the largest 3D event that I have, over the years, ever had the pleasure of attending, which I think had close to 2,000 shooters, it was in my opinion an awesome event. Also, the entire ASA staff really was, in my opinion, so very friendly, consciensious, and professional, as they all seem to really enjoy helping all the shooters, spectators and vendors. Even as it was evident to me, and I was aware that some of the officials were really trying hard to take some of the load off Mike, as he seems to be everywhere, and doing anything necessary to keep the event running smootlhy. I can't begin to imagine who or how many it would require to replace the man, and can only hope that as ASA continues to grow, that we will continue to have the man, and his services. Thanks to the entire ASA organization. Claude


I agree! The ASA crew and the locals always run a great shoot!

Please accept my previous post of criticism as being constructive not destructive!


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## John-in-VA (Mar 27, 2003)

The practice range was dark as I expected it would be .But if you went up over the hill on the long side there were about 10 more targets . That were just about right not to dark in there and nobody had shot them from what it looked like .No line we were the only 3 shooters over there Saturday morning ,it was a long walk but well worth it .

I think everyone that had a hand in the shoot this weekend did a Great job .I thanked Mike personally both for the great time we all had and moving us super sr off the power line .

The place was packed and the Staff did a great job handling everything .Thanks again Mike and the ASA staff for putting on a great shoot for us . John Mason


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## sagecreek (Jul 15, 2003)

I really, really, enjoyed not having to shoot on the power line. The courses in the bottom where nice. Maybe that's why I enjoyed it so good. It would be nicer if they sowed the power lines in grass and kept it mowed.


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## ar1220 (May 18, 2014)

rattlinman said:


> Two folks I know said the tourney as a whole was good but the powerline range was well, the powerline range.
> 
> I was unable to attend this one and was hoping to follow along on Bowjunky....but it appears there was a predicament? Is that a done deal?


Me personally its a done deal as for me with bow junky...he would not even post the leaderboard for the pros under the presence of he was gone do it for the high school 3d deal...


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## ar1220 (May 18, 2014)

Luckily I didn't have to go up to the power line the wife shot up there as for the venue great tournament and shoot out to the Kentucky federation and asa for getting that many shooters through it..I hope we come back to London next year I left some points down on e range that I need to get back


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## Huntin Hard (Aug 8, 2011)

ar1220 said:


> Me personally its a done deal as for me with bow junky...he would not even post the leaderboard for the pros under the presence of he was gone do it for the high school 3d deal...


He didn't even go on the pro range either day did he ?? Don't know why though....


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## bhtr3d (Feb 13, 2004)

I wasn't there......anyone miss me....


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## carlosii (Feb 25, 2007)

Dr.Dorite said:


> Considering the fact that it was the largest 3D event that I have, over the years, ever had the pleasure of attending, which I think had close to 2,000 shooters, it was in my opinion an awesome event. Also, the entire ASA staff really was, in my opinion, so very friendly, consciensious, and professional, as they all seem to really enjoy helping all the shooters, spectators and vendors. Even as it was evident to me, and I was aware that some of the officials were really trying hard to take some of the load off Mike, as he seems to be everywhere, and doing anything necessary to keep the event running smootlhy. I can't begin to imagine who or how many it would require to replace the man, and can only hope that as ASA continues to grow, that we will continue to have the man, and his services. Thanks to the entire ASA organization. Claude



Dr. Dorite, everybody knows you're just trying to get Mike to allow you to walk up, just like they let the kids do in the team shoots.

Not gonna happen...wouldn't be prudent.


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## dw'struth (Mar 14, 2008)

Huntin Hard said:


> He didn't even go on the pro range either day did he ?? Don't know why though....


He did, however, make it to the K50 range. Hmmm...

It was a great shoot with a great crowd. My 12-count was up, but my score was down!


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## tmorelli (Jul 31, 2005)

Huntin Hard said:


> He didn't even go on the pro range either day did he ?? Don't know why though....


He went to the pro range Saturday morning.....for a minute or two.


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## schmel_me (Dec 17, 2003)

Huntin Hard said:


> He didn't even go on the pro range either day did he ?? Don't know why though....


Why would someone go where the aren't wanted.


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## dw'struth (Mar 14, 2008)

Haha...you could have a point there.


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## carlosii (Feb 25, 2007)

bhtr3d said:


> I wasn't there......anyone miss me....


You were missed...about like a toothache. :wink:


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## carlosii (Feb 25, 2007)

schmel_me said:


> Why would someone go where the aren't wanted.


We have a winner....:welcomesign:


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## jimb (Feb 17, 2003)

Money, bowjunky is sponsored by Hoyt, Hoyt wants the known 3d, its all about the money. It is that simple.


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## tmorelli (Jul 31, 2005)

jimb said:


> Money, bowjunky is sponsored by Hoyt, Hoyt wants the known 3d, its all about the money. It is that simple.


Not this time.


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## jimb (Feb 17, 2003)

tmorelli said:


> Not this time.


Hoyts pushing a lot of people towards the class


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## Huntin Hard (Aug 8, 2011)

schmel_me said:


> Why would someone go where the aren't wanted.


Because he's there every other tournament. I assume this is the first he wasn't wanted there.


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## ar1220 (May 18, 2014)

I know he was on the lower ranges Sunday morning....and word was when he open pros were coming off the power lines Saturday he asked them for there scorecards and they refused to give them to him...I think the word is karma


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## Reed (Jun 18, 2002)

so are they unhappy/upset about his stance on the pro k 50 or is it something else


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## golfnut721 (Dec 29, 2008)

I personally think its a little arrogant of the pros not to share the score cards. after all love him or hate him, he is the only one to try and bring updates to people that cant make it. He is trying to grow the sport and it would appear that he is pulling for the known side. Big deal, I like Chevy you like ford. The pros themselves kept the updates away. Not the other way around.


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## SMshootsmathews (Feb 4, 2013)

golfnut721 said:


> I personally think its a little arrogant of the pros not to share the score cards. after all love him or hate him, he is the only one to try and bring updates to people that cant make it. He is trying to grow the sport and it would appear that he is pulling for the known side. Big deal, I like Chevy you like ford. The pros themselves kept the updates away. Not the other way around.


Wrong. We had women's scores, which bowjunky was always, ALWAYS lagging on. The arcHER video was great, looked like ESPN. And only what, 2 hours after the women were off the range? Glad men's pro class is standing up for something though.


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## rattlinman (Dec 30, 2004)

ar1220 said:


> I know he was on the lower ranges Sunday morning....and word was when he open pros were coming off the power lines Saturday he asked them for there scorecards and they refused to give them to him...I think the word is karma





golfnut721 said:


> I personally think its a little arrogant of the pros not to share the score cards. after all love him or hate him, he is the only one to try and bring updates to people that cant make it. He is trying to grow the sport and it would appear that he is pulling for the known side. Big deal, I like Chevy you like ford. The pros themselves kept the updates away. Not the other way around.


Wasn't there an issue where he gave the wrong score for a top Pro, maybe Levi, and it caused an uproar? I know the Pros play alot of strategy based on who's leading, how much, etc. Maybe that's the reference from these posts?

Personally, I appreciate his videos and updates, but I feel like he should stay Switzerland in a lot of these "issues" that he has been vocal about. U-biased and impartial, like Fox News may be a better stance if you want cooperation from all involved.


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## rattlinman (Dec 30, 2004)

SMshootsmathews said:


> Wrong. We had women's scores, which bowjunky was always, ALWAYS lagging on. The arcHER video was great, looked like ESPN. And only what, 2 hours after the women were off the range? Glad men's pro class is standing up for something though.


I agree, the arcHER video was cool! I hope that continues to expand and grow.


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## pointndog (Jul 14, 2005)

rattlinman said:


> Wasn't there an issue where he gave the wrong score for a top Pro, maybe Levi, and it caused an uproar? I know the Pros play alot of strategy based on who's leading, how much, etc. Maybe that's the reference from these posts?
> 
> Personally, I appreciate his videos and updates, but I feel like he should stay Switzerland in a lot of these "issues" that he has been vocal about. U-biased and impartial, like Fox News may be a better stance if you want cooperation from all involved.


I guess we missed some things Sunday after we left. The scoring issue before was Levi was told someone else's score so he played it safe, but the score was wrong and he missed the cut do to that when and he could have went for it.

Love him or hate him, BJ is the only means we have of knowing what is going on at the shoot. I definitely think he could do things differently that wouldn't get people riled up. 

But think about it his name is out thre and getting publicity regardless of right or wrong.


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## rattlinman (Dec 30, 2004)

tmorelli said:


> Not this time.


Come on Tony....you're holding back. Give us the skinny. BTW, If your going to Stillwater...I'm gunning for you! 18 up on the first day...psst please. LOL


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## SMshootsmathews (Feb 4, 2013)

Not for long, if he keeps it up. He had no Pro class to turn to this weekend. Said he was 'focusing on the kids" to make himself look good and yet didnt have one picture of one kid. He was on the Open B & Semi Ranges.

You can only burn so many bridges in this industry. Archery aint but so big!


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## Sweet Seat (Apr 2, 2015)

sagecreek said:


> Kentucky venue was great. Only problem I see they will have is enough parking. It was over max on Saturday.
> 
> Speaking of Open C, that 40 yard class was at 260 shooters, 6 to a stake. Miserable for those guys. I would suggest they have a unknown 40 Open class and a known 40. Seriously.


Yes, I shoot open C and would really like to see an unknown or both 40 yard class.

Other than that KY was a good shoot.


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## schmel_me (Dec 17, 2003)

SMshootsmathews said:


> Not for long, if he keeps it up. He had no Pro class to turn to this weekend. Said he was 'focusing on the kids" to make himself look good and yet didnt have one picture of one kid. He was on the Open B & Semi Ranges.
> 
> You can only burn so many bridges in this industry. Archery aint but so big!




I was at the meeting Friday night. Jason is taking the high road as he always has and should. Without bowjunky or similar exposure the asa will not continue to grow like it has. The "pros" have an issue and really has nothing to do with who bowjunky supports. its about $$ plain and simple. 
Jason has supported growth in archery he and others are taking notice that known is growing and put some energy into that. Its threatning to some.
The pros need something to promote what they do if they want to continue to get paid. bowjunky does that... they need exposure period. The 100 or so people who hang out and watch the shootdowns are nothing.


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## pointndog (Jul 14, 2005)

Well does anyone have the scoop on if there was some kind of falling out with BJ and Mike Terrell Sunday. Been hearing some rumors, but are they real or not.


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## Tallcatt (Jul 27, 2003)

pointndog said:


> Well does anyone have the scoop on if there was some kind of falling out with BJ and Mike Terrell Sunday. Been hearing some rumors, but are they real or not.



I know Mike does not regularly check Archery Talk, but just in case he does I would think he would like to see his last name spelled correctly.........Its Tyrell.:wink:


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## tmorelli (Jul 31, 2005)

Tallcatt said:


> I know Mike does not regularly check Archery Talk, but just in case he does I would think he would like to see his last name spelled correctly.........Its Tyrell.:wink:


LOL. If he gets too bent out of shape, tell him it is better than everyone spelling Tony as Toni.


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## pointndog (Jul 14, 2005)

tmorelli said:


> LOL. If he gets too bent out of shape, tell him it is better than everyone spelling Tony as Toni.


Never paid attention to his last name and spelling, I have seen it spelled that way before so I went with it. Regardless, did something happen on Sunday between him and Corley?


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## tmorelli (Jul 31, 2005)

pointndog said:


> Never paid attention to his last name and spelling, I have seen it spelled that way before so I went with it. Regardless, did something happen on Sunday between him and Corley?


No idea. I've heard lots of things, but I haven't heard that one.


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## reylamb (Feb 5, 2003)

schmel_me said:


> I was at the meeting Friday night. Jason is taking the high road as he always has and should. Without bowjunky or similar exposure the asa will not continue to grow like it has. The "pros" have an issue and really has nothing to do with who bowjunky supports. its about $$ plain and simple.
> Jason has supported growth in archery he and others are taking notice that known is growing and put some energy into that. Its threatning to some.
> The pros need something to promote what they do if they want to continue to get paid. bowjunky does that... they need exposure period. The 100 or so people who hang out and watch the shootdowns are nothing.


Seriously, without Bowjunky ASA will not continue to grow? Outside of archerytalk, just how popular is bowjunky?


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## carlosii (Feb 25, 2007)

Tallcatt said:


> I know Mike does not regularly check Archery Talk, but just in case he does I would think he would like to see his last name spelled correctly.........Its Tyrell.:wink:


That's the French spelling, ain't it?

:wink:


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## outbackarcher (Oct 31, 2005)

It wouldn't surprise me if someone else started covering the Open Pro class...maybe something like the Women Pros are doing. BJ just likes to stir up the drama.


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## SMshootsmathews (Feb 4, 2013)

outbackarcher said:


> It wouldn't surprise me if someone else started covering the Open Pro class...maybe something like the Women Pros are doing. BJ just likes to stir up the drama.


Hopefully! arcHER is a wonderful thing. Finally giving the women the attention they deserve. By far the hardest working pro class of any.


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## tmorelli (Jul 31, 2005)

outbackarcher said:


> It wouldn't surprise me if someone else started covering the Open Pro class...maybe something like the Women Pros are doing. BJ just likes to stir up the drama.


I can't wait.


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## BowHuntnKY (Dec 10, 2008)

The practice range SUCKED after the sun got at your back...i could see a darn thing. I like the practice range better where it was at last year... plus it had much more shade ahere it was last year haha.

Shot power lines and maybe it was me but i had a really hard time it was like shooting down a mine shaft...ive never shot lanes that narrow and dark.


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## Bearlee (Dec 24, 2009)

I understood several teams were supposed to film the kids, it did not appear to happen other than what footage I took, except for a little at the beginning of the S3DA shoot before they went on the range. Kind of disappointing for them to be told this, then dropped like they don't matter. I wonder what kind of taste that left in the children's mouths?


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## bhtr3d (Feb 13, 2004)

Bearlee said:


> I understood several teams were supposed to film the kids, it did not appear to happen other than what footage I took, except for a little at the beginning of the S3DA shoot before they went on the range. Kind of disappointing for them to be told this, then dropped like they don't matter. I wonder what kind of taste that left in the children's mouths?


 I wasn't there.....but when it comes.to TV stuff and coverage......things change on a dime at times....it's how it goes....


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## Kstigall (Feb 24, 2004)

Many folks seem quick to jump down BowJunky's throat. Jason has done a lot and it all started out of his back pocket with minimal equipment, and a lot of time/effort on his part.

I am not a BJ fan boy by any stretch of the imagination. But I have no problem giving a man his due.

Just how many folks are there that want to get in on the big money being made by interviewing Pro 3D'ers and recording ASA shoots? I seriously doubt that Jason and family are raking it in. I wonder if BJ can afford to increase staff and equipment?


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## SMshootsmathews (Feb 4, 2013)

Kstigall said:


> Many folks seem quick to jump down BowJunky's throat. Jason has done a lot and it all started out of his back pocket with minimal equipment, and a lot of time/effort on his part.
> 
> I am not a BJ fan boy by any stretch of the imagination. But I have no problem giving a man his due.
> 
> Just how many folks are there that want to get in on the big money being made by interviewing Pro 3D'ers and recording ASA shoots? I seriously doubt that Jason and family are raking it in. I wonder if BJ can afford to increase staff and equipment?


Hes probably not raking it in, but hes not holding a working job, either. I know these tournaments take a lot of effort, definitely. But he also goes on hunts in the fall while everyone else is stuck at work...with free equipment I might add. Its no different than the pros that dont have to work. They might not be absolutely rolling in money but their job is pretty dang easy. 

I just wish he would be unbiased. He will ruin his business if he isnt careful.


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## sagecreek (Jul 15, 2003)

Yes, I too really, really appreciate BowJunky coverage. It just appears when one of your major sponsors is Hoyt and your booth is in the same Hoyt booth, ....


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## tmorelli (Jul 31, 2005)

SMshootsmathews said:


> Hes probably not raking it in, but hes not holding a working job, either. I know these tournaments take a lot of effort, definitely. But he also goes on hunts in the fall while everyone else is stuck at work...with free equipment I might add. Its no different than the pros that dont have to work. They might not be absolutely rolling in money but their job is pretty dang easy.
> 
> I just wish he would be unbiased. He will ruin his business if he isnt careful.


Word on the street is that Hoyt fired him and the pros are developing their own replacement for updates, etc. If you haven't already, follow ArcHer on FB...the women have a headstart on their thing and seem to be doing a great job with it.


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## SMshootsmathews (Feb 4, 2013)

When did hoyt fire him? Or allegedly fire him haha


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## tmorelli (Jul 31, 2005)

SMshootsmathews said:


> When did hoyt fire him? Or allegedly fire him haha


Today or yesterday?.... you know how the rumor mill works. Take it for what it is worth until.......


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## SMshootsmathews (Feb 4, 2013)

Wow. First Ive heard of that. I thought thats how hoyt was pushing their K50 agenda. Maybe we were wrong?


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## sagecreek (Jul 15, 2003)

Didn't most of the McKenzie guys get fired too last year?


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## pointndog (Jul 14, 2005)

tmorelli said:


> Today or yesterday?.... you know how the rumor mill works. Take it for what it is worth until.......


Just looked on Bowjunky and Hoyt is not on the partner page or anywhere.


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## pointndog (Jul 14, 2005)

I bet his contingency money has vanished also now.


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## tmorelli (Jul 31, 2005)

pointndog said:


> I bet his contingency money has vanished also now.


Its gone for the pro class, of course you evidently couldn't pay them (literally) to wear BJ stuff.


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## pointndog (Jul 14, 2005)

Thats interesting after Redding didn't he get the presidential treatment @ hoyt.... I would imagine alot of his funding went bye bye...


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## SMshootsmathews (Feb 4, 2013)

pointndog said:


> Just looked on Bowjunky and Hoyt is not on the partner page or anywhere.


He also had reposted one of badlands' pics of them giving away a new HTR in lost camo on instagram yesterday. It struck me as weird but i didnt think anything of it, until now.


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## carlosii (Feb 25, 2007)

Rumors are flyin'...but who knows? Did Hoyt dump BJ? Did BJ dump Hoyt? Are the pros giving Jason the cold shoulder? So whose agenda is on the rise and whose ship is sinkin'? 

Who's behind all this shadowy business involving K50 and the Open Pro guys? What's the real skinny on the future of unknown in ASA? 

Inquiring minds wanna know.


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## shootstraight (Apr 28, 2005)

I was told by a pro that the rumors of amateur classes going to all known was started by BJ. He also said that he had talked to Mathews, Hoyt and another top sponsor and they were not for a pro known class.


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## Huntin Hard (Aug 8, 2011)

Hmm wonder who he will pick up as a bow sponsor now....


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## schmel_me (Dec 17, 2003)

shootstraight said:


> I was told by a pro that the rumors of amateur classes going to all known was started by BJ. He also said that he had talked to Mathews, Hoyt and another top sponsor and they were not for a pro known class.



I sat at the meeting Friday night and there where 15-20 pros there. Jason did an excellent job of explaining himself and I can say first hand whatever pro told you Jason started that rumor wasnt there.


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## Huntin Hard (Aug 8, 2011)

schmel_me said:


> I sat at the meeting Friday night and there where 15-20 pros there. Jason did an excellent job of explaining himself and I can say first hand whatever pro told you Jason started that rumor wasnt there.


Agree with you. I was at the meeting too


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## field14 (May 21, 2002)

Think about it. There were what 49 'Unknown Pros' at the event, and 80 K50 shooters? It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out there is a "turf war" going on here and some "range protection factor" thrown in!

Figure this...Let's for grins say that both K50 and Unknown Pro have the same registration fees. Above you can see that there are 63% MORE shooters in K50 than unknown pro. Same registration fee for 63% MORE shooters means.
1. MORE money in the K50 registration fees to pay-back than there will be in unknown pro!
2. DEEPER payout in K50 than in Unknown pro!

That being the case, just where do you think the "pros" are going to go? Do you think they'll stay in their unknown ramparts for 1/2 the registration pay-back monies? They'd only stay if the CONTINGENCY was HIGHER AND the registration monies pay-back was matched....but with 49 people, how can the registration monies pay-back possibly be matched...unless registration monies pay-back is taken away from other classes, OR the ASA bites the bullet an increases the payback % for Open PRO but leaves the others at a lower pay-back???? Quite the dilemma, isn't it? So...the manuf don't want to have to cut back their contingency or split it...and they can ill afford to INCREASE their contingency budget either...so they too are caught in the dilemma about what to do with the FASTEST GROWING CLASSES in the ASA!

Hopefully ALL the registration money paid in and paid out to K50 actually GOES to K50; and the same for unknown pro (and all other pro, too!!) The money belongs to THAT class and no other. But that is a different discussion.

Again it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that K50 is a BIGGER DRAW than unknown and K50 is GROWING, K40 Womens is GROWING, K45 is GROWING, and the Known distance classes are GROWING.

So...turf protection mode is on. Of course some of the unknown pros may be against a "known pro" class...wouldn't you if that class was going to already have a higher payout in monies than your class, simply due to the participation numbers?
Calling the kettle black, I think haha.
ASA's decision to go with KNOWN distances was a wise one. Besides this, other than the money numbers...I don't see WHY the "unknown" hard-core shooters are so bent out of shape about KNOWN classses? The unknown class shooters are NOT competing directly against the KNOWN distance shooters anyways. IF there weren't the KNOWN classes, I would sure think that the overall numbers in attendance would either be stagnant or in DECLINE>
The KNOWN distance classes are the fastest growing classes and growing in leaps and bounds...why would anyone want to cut that out...and lose that PROFIT and participation to such a great sport?

field14 (Tom D.)


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## tmorelli (Jul 31, 2005)

Huntin Hard said:


> Agree with you. I was at the meeting too


I was there too....and I disagree.


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## tmorelli (Jul 31, 2005)

field14 said:


> Think about it. There were what 49 'Unknown Pros' at the event, and 80 K50 shooters? It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out there is a "turf war" going on here and some "range protection factor" thrown in!
> 
> Figure this...Let's for grins say that both K50 and Unknown Pro have the same registration fees. Above you can see that there are 63% MORE shooters in K50 than unknown pro. Same registration fee for 63% MORE shooters means.
> 1. MORE money in the K50 registration fees to pay-back than there will be in unknown pro!
> ...


Tom,

You have zero understanding of the game or the personal dynamics at play here. Stop assuming you do.


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## field14 (May 21, 2002)

tmorelli said:


> Tom,
> 
> You have zero understanding of the game or the personal dynamics at play here. Stop assuming you do.


I likely was into competitive archery tournament shooting before you were even born...ZERO understanding my arse! I've been around the block on this same subject many times over the years. Same game, different people playing, but with the same ideas and mind-set. I have been in the pro division, not ASA or IBO...they weren't even 'born yet' either! So please don't gimme this ZERO understanding stuff, OK?
Pay-back from shooting fees is pay-back in shooting fees. How deep the payout goes is dictated by the payout charts as are the % each placement gets. The more shooters in the class, the deeper the payback goes down the ladder.
MORE shooters paying the same registration fee = MORE pay-back money available to that class.

49 shooters cannot generate the registration pay-back that 80 shooters are going to generate..impossible. So, where would you go? Stay with the 49 shooters that might payback 9 or 10 people, or 80 shooters plus you that would pay-back 16 shooters.
Assuming the SAME registration fee for both unknown and K50:
49X $275 = $13,475 taken in in registration fees. 70% pay-back. $9432.50 total payback for the class
80X $275 = $22,000 taken in in registration fees. 70% pay-back $15,400 total payback for the class.
Where would you go? Numbers don't lie!

So, even if the 80 shooters paid $125, that is still 80 X $125 = $10,000 taken in 70% payback...$7,000 total payback for the K50 at only the $125 registration fee. Sure, 1st place won't get the high % for 16 places payback vs 10 shooters getting paid...but holy cow...it is sure close with VOLUME.
Add in there some contingency monies...and MORE people stand a chance of finishing in the money...and there ya go.

I know there are more dynamics, but the pros go where the money is and you cannot blame them....but also...if there is another class seeking out to become a "pro level class", I also and so do you understand why the current Open Pro class would balk at supporting the idea.
The numbers in K50, K45, K40 women's don't lie...they are GROWING. Others are stagnant, of if growing not in the leaps and bounds that the K classes are.
With that kind of growth, the ranges cannot support the numbers of people...THAT DYNAMIC is something that is very hard to deal with what with the amount of ranges and available space to build more ranges....and the number of hours in a day to hold "line times"...
field14 (Tom D.)


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## tmorelli (Jul 31, 2005)

Never mind.


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## n2bows (May 21, 2002)

tmorelli said:


> Tom,
> 
> You have zero understanding of the game or the personal dynamics at play here. Stop assuming you do.


Tony, I do not always agree with Tom. But he is 100% correct here! 

The main problem in ASA right now, is that the mens open pro see the righting on the wall!! And they are scared that their class is going to die! Which it is! And anyone with ANY common sense can see that the known classes are growing, and that is the future of the sport!!!!! In five years, unknown yardage 3D in ASA will become what known yardage 3D was before 2009, a novelty!!


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## tmorelli (Jul 31, 2005)

The numbers go to the game more shooters want to play. K50 is growing why?.... Because it is open to anyone (pro and amateur alike), because the entry fee is $150 less than pro, because it can be played successfully with a lower level of commitment. All of those things make it a great class. None of those things make it pro. Pro is the best of the best. Pro requires ALL the skills of the game, not just some. Pro should be exclusive. We all agree that depth of payout matters.... 

What would happen to open pro if the entry fee was lowered to $125?

What will happen to k50 if the entry fee is raised to $275?

Despite Tom's history, he doesn't understand 3d...nor has he ever once posted with 3d in a positive light, or with it's best interest in mind. 

Make 3d all known, watch it die like field.


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## shootstraight (Apr 28, 2005)

n2bows said:


> Tony, I do not always agree with Tom. But he is 100% correct here!
> 
> The main problem in ASA right now, is that the mens open pro see the righting on the wall!! And they are scared that their class is going to die! Which it is! And anyone with ANY common sense can see that the known classes are growing, and that is the future of the sport!!!!! In five years, unknown yardage 3D in ASA will become what known yardage 3D was before 2009, a novelty!!


So is this an opinion or do you shoot known and are just spewing your love for what you want? As a regional director I would think you'd be a little less opinionated about something that pisses off a large number of people who shoot unknown. It's still all about money, Mike will keep and do whatever makes money! I fail to see how eliminating unknown which brings a lot of shooters to these events will make more money.


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## shootstraight (Apr 28, 2005)

schmel_me said:


> I sat at the meeting Friday night and there where 15-20 pros there. Jason did an excellent job of explaining himself and I can say first hand whatever pro told you Jason started that rumor wasnt there.


Right, believe what you want, he was there!


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## Bo Bob (Feb 12, 2004)

Make the known 50 guys pay the same reg. fee that the Open Pro pay, then see after about 3 years if the numbers of the K 50 is still more than the Pros. 
Also, if you have some real pro shooters start filtering in to K50, how long will a lot of those guys continue to pay the high entry fee knowing they have no chance of placing. They will just filter back to K45.


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## tmorelli (Jul 31, 2005)

Bo Bob said:


> Make the known 50 guys pay the same reg. fee that the Open Pro pay, then see after about 3 years if the numbers of the K 50 is still more than the Pros.
> Also, if you have some real pro shooters start filtering in to K50, how long will a lot of those guys continue to pay the high entry fee knowing they have no chance of placing. They will just filter back to K45.


They can't go back to k45....well, I guess after two years of losing, they can write a letter to the competition committee. If approved, they'll be met with hate and discontent from the K45 shooters.

Just saying, moving back isn't easy. Many people just quit instead.


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## SMshootsmathews (Feb 4, 2013)

field14 said:


> Think about it. There were what 49 'Unknown Pros' at the event, and 80 K50 shooters? It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out there is a "turf war" going on here and some "range protection factor" thrown in!
> 
> Figure this...Let's for grins say that both K50 and Unknown Pro have the same registration fees. Above you can see that there are 63% MORE shooters in K50 than unknown pro. Same registration fee for 63% MORE shooters means.
> 1. MORE money in the K50 registration fees to pay-back than there will be in unknown pro!
> ...


Why are you basing a pro class on participation?! In that case Open C and hunter class should be pro, sure not K50. Bottom line is, they want something for nothing. They haven't put the time in to learn targets like the Open Pros, so they want their own class so they don't have to compete against them. So does that mean we should make semi pro a pro class too? The semi pros don't have the skill set yet to compete against the pros. So let's just make them a pro class too so they won't _have_ to compete against Levi and Tim and dan. It's the same concept. 

Also, quit assuming that 80 shooters would still show up if the entry fee would go up to 275. That wouldn't happen because as soon as any open pros switch over or dot shooters come in then all of a sudden the middle of the pack and bottom of the barrel guys will drop out. Wonder why pro class attendance is so "low" it's because if people were smart, they wouldn't donate to the cause. K50 would do the same thing fast when they find out that they can't hang with the open pros. 

Will we then hear about making k45 a pro class? It's no different than what's going on here!!!


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## Bo Bob (Feb 12, 2004)

tmorelli said:


> They can't go back to k45....well, I guess after two years of losing, they can write a letter to the competition committee. If approved, they'll be met with hate and discontent from the K45 shooters.
> 
> Just saying, moving back isn't easy. Many people just quit instead.


Well I know it was said about not wanting to (nor being able to) pay the higher entry fee to shoot K50 if they raise the entry.


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## outbackarcher (Oct 31, 2005)

I was at that meeting too and the question was asked to the K50 guys about paying the pro cert and 275. Only about 5 hands stayed up saying they would shoot the class. 3D archery is unknown distance and if we want everything to go known, which we don't and this crap is stirred up by BJ, then all we need is a bail with the picture of a deer and other animals on it. In my opinion all known distance is a liberal agenda trying to be shoved down our throat. I have had enough of that with the politics in this country much less the politics in archery.


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## sagecreek (Jul 15, 2003)

Well said Larry. Known distance is not 3D, and I won't shoot it. It's not as fun and challenging to me.

I'm fine is someone else wants to shoot it though if it gets them involved, but they are just dot shooters to me.


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## carlosii (Feb 25, 2007)

SMshootsmathews said:


> Why are you basing a pro class on participation?! In that case Open C and hunter class should be pro, sure not K50. Bottom line is, they want something for nothing. They haven't put the time in to learn targets like the Open Pros, so they want their own class so they don't have to compete against them. So does that mean we should make semi pro a pro class too? The semi pros don't have the skill set yet to compete against the pros. So let's just make them a pro class too so they won't _have_ to compete against Levi and Tim and dan. It's the same concept.
> 
> Also, quit assuming that 80 shooters would still show up if the entry fee would go up to 275. That wouldn't happen because as soon as any open pros switch over or dot shooters come in then all of a sudden the middle of the pack and bottom of the barrel guys will drop out. Wonder why pro class attendance is so "low" it's because if people were smart, they wouldn't donate to the cause. K50 would do the same thing fast when they find out that they can't hang with the open pros.
> 
> Will we then hear about making k45 a pro class? It's no different than what's going on here!!!


Nailed it!


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## carlosii (Feb 25, 2007)

Get your BUMPER PRO sticker from Jacob. :lol3:


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## Bearlee (Dec 24, 2009)

I think BJ has done an excellent job in getting the ball rolling to help the general public see archery as a sport on youtube ... the step down from tv ... the first necessary step. These types of services are necessary to gain sponsors outside the bow and arrow and sight and release manufacturers. They have to see there is an audience to market to, with an established vehicle to take it to the masses. Great first step, once new sponsors are established to help pay pro contingencies, then this all goes away. (think truck, sports drinks, beef jerky etc.) Time for the pros and ASA as an organization to step up and bring in the sponsors other than the archery industry. Why were payouts better many years ago? Time to change a few things in the game and make it interesting, and that only happens with a viewing audience. Place cameras all around the pro range and record it all. Go pros could do this. Why not seek a go Pro sponsor or alternative to show arrows as they hit the target and fly from archer to target? Bow Junky started the work, I think they just got a little to involved politically. Mend fences folks and move on. Realize the bigger picture. I will say if you only do half the work, you only deserve half the pay. K50 is a shooter class not a PRO 3D class because they do not judge targets, the type of skill that is required in hunting situations, which is why this all started, to help hunters excel. Tap the hunter market in a deeper way and watch it grow. Cross promote, Realtree is a great example, we just need more of that.


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## SMshootsmathews (Feb 4, 2013)

sagecreek said:


> Well said Larry. Known distance is not 3D, and I won't shoot it. It's not as fun and challenging to me.
> 
> I'm fine is someone else wants to shoot it though if it gets them involved, but they are just dot shooters to me.


I dont necessarily agree with that. K40/Open C is a great starter class. I very much think that it is needed in ASA. Heck look at Chance's girlfriend this past weekend! I just think that they should be considered starter classes. NEVER EVER pro. EVER.


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## sagecreek (Jul 15, 2003)

Yes, I think K40 and an unknown Open C would be great starter classes.


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## n2bows (May 21, 2002)

1. I was at the meeting Friday also. And most of the K50 guys raised their hand when asked about paying pro entry fee!!!!

2. I DO NOT think that K50 should be a pro class. I DO think that there should be a Known Pro class!!!!

3. The numbers do not lie!! Known yardage classes are the classes that are growing. And the classes that are bringing new shooters to the sport, and bringing shooters back to the sport!!!

4. If they outlawed range finders tomorrow. I would still come and shoot ASA tournaments!!!! 

5. All sports must change to keep up with what the participants and viewers want!!

6. I want what is BEST for ASA as a whole, and what is going to make this sport grow. No matter what it is!!!!!!!!!!



If I go by what some of you are saying. The archers who participate and win in the pro class at Vegas are not pros because they know the yardage?! The archers who compete and win in the pro class at Redding are not pros because they know the distance?!!!!!!!!! The archers who compete and win in World Cup archer are not pros because they know the distance?!!!!!!!!!!!!


I have been bow hunting for 34 years since I was 14 years old. I started shooting competitive archery in 1991, when it was 2D not 3D. 
And 3D archery was started as a way to practice for hunting. And I do not know a single person who does not carry a range finder in the woods with them when they are hunting!!!


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## n2bows (May 21, 2002)

shootstraight said:


> So is this an opinion or do you shoot known and are just spewing your love for what you want? As a regional director I would think you'd be a little less opinionated about something that pisses off a large number of people who shoot unknown. It's still all about money, Mike will keep and do whatever makes money! I fail to see how eliminating unknown which brings a lot of shooters to these events will make more money.


This is not my opinion. This is fact. There are more people shooting the known classes or half and half than unknown in ASA. And ASA is bigger now than it ever has been! And it is not because they have added more unknown classes! 

How many of the pros in the meeting Friday night said that they would still shoot if the pro class became all known? All most all of them! 

I do not think that ASA should do away with the Open pro class, I think there should be a Known Pro class in addition to the open pro class. And let the participation decide on which one survives.


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## tmorelli (Jul 31, 2005)

n2bows said:


> 1. I was at the meeting Friday also. And most of the K50 guys raised their hand when asked about paying pro entry fee!!!!
> 
> 2. I DO NOT think that K50 should be a pro class. I DO think that there should be a Known Pro class!!!!
> 
> ...


I doubt this is anything more than rehashing what has been said elsewhere. But, counterpoints- 

1. It is a lot easier to raise that hand than it is to hand over that cash. You and I both know that more than doubling the entry fee would severely lower attendance... regardless of who says what beforehand.

2. I am of the opinion that there is no room for another pro class and to make the pinnacle of this sport, known distance would be sad, and mark the decline of the sport. Known distance has it's place, but it isn't at the pro 3d level. Every single K50/kpro advocate that has spoken up has acted as if there are no costs or consequences to pro level contingency being awarded to k50/kpro. Anyone using their brain knows better. That money comes from somewhere and that is most likely from the same budget column that funds current pro contingencies.

3. Known is growing for a number of reasons. I have listed the positives of known distance 3d on many occasions, and the challenges of competing at high levels in unknown. None of those make the case for a known pro class. Pro should be exclusive.

4. Me too.

5. The game must adapt... but the steps must be wise. Especially in this day, it takes some deliberacy to filter the desire of the masses, from the whines of the vocal minority.... and even when that is done, I'm thankful that this is Mike T's business to run. Whatever the masses have determined they want at the moment, may not be what is good for sport as a whole. Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large numbers... or with podcasts.

6. Me too.


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## tmorelli (Jul 31, 2005)

n2bows said:


> This is not my opinion. This is fact. There are more people shooting the known classes or half and half than unknown in ASA. And ASA is bigger now than it ever has been! And it is not because they have added more unknown classes!
> 
> How many of the pros in the meeting Friday night said that they would still shoot if the pro class became all known? All most all of them!
> 
> I do not think that ASA should do away with the Open pro class, I think there should be a Known Pro class in addition to the open pro class. And let the participation decide on which one survives.


Actually, how can you say that the growth in known distance isn't because that is where the new offerings are? % of known vs unknown players..... look at the classes offered. Just from memory.....

Known side-
Novice
Open C
K45
K50
Womens Hunter
Womens K40
Womens K45

Half/Half-
Hunter
Open B
Women's Open B

Unknown-
Open A
Semi
Women's Open A
Unlimited

(No offense to the seniors, I just don't know who shoots what)

So below the pro's and seniors, 7 classes of known, including the formative novice/introductory classes which people are encouraged to start out in. 4 classes of unknown, where only a % of people run the gauntlet, have the stick-to-it-ness and talent to make it.

Growth isn't the top of the game, it is at the entry level...and the entry level is known distance.


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## n2bows (May 21, 2002)

tmorelli said:


> Actually, how can you say that the growth in known distance isn't because that is where the new offerings are? % of known vs unknown players..... look at the classes offered. Just from memory.....
> 
> Known side-
> Novice
> ...



I guess I should have been a little more clear. I was not talking about the number of classes. I was talking about the number of shooters. There are more shooters shooting in the known classes than in the unknown classes.


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## tmorelli (Jul 31, 2005)

n2bows said:


> I guess I should have been a little more clear. I was not talking about the number of classes. I was talking about the number of shooters. There are more shooters shooting in the known classes than in the unknown classes.


I understood that. I'm saying, why are they shooting them? And implying, it is because that is what is being offered, especially at the entry level, where the true growth is.


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## bhtr3d (Feb 13, 2004)

Tom.....this side of.the sport.....you really don't have a clue about....just like the old old heads we have here in Florida for nfaa .....your lost....

Here something you don't know.....in ASA early years.....you had to go to a school/marketing school and had to shoot a test course and achieve a set score to be listed as a pro.....

So saying you been this for how long.......gramps get over it ...

Tony is pretty up to date on this genre and knows what's asked...needed...and strong beliefs in the further growth of the sport.


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## Kstigall (Feb 24, 2004)

n2bows said:


> 1. I was at the meeting Friday also. And most of the K50 guys raised their hand when asked about paying pro entry fee!!!!
> 
> 2. I DO NOT think that K50 should be a pro class. I DO think that there should be a Known Pro class!!!!
> 
> ...


1. I shot out of K45 in 2013. I shot one ASA K50 and one Regions K50 last year. If the entry fee had been $275 I would NOT have shot even a single K50. At the ripe old age of 51 I wasn't quite sure if I wanted to turn Pro in 3D! _IF_ Senior Known hadn't been created this year I would be shooting K50 occasionally but NOT if it was a $275 entry. Maybe I would have shot Senior Open as the idea of relearning judging guessing is challenging. Obviously I like challenges.........

2. Everyone knows you can't simply make K50 a Pro class without other additions such as another high level known distance class. I don't think the need for Pro Known has been shown! K50 is what it is because it is NOT a Pro class.

3. Agreed, but that does not mean Known 3D is at point where it needs low attendance "pro" class. It would be better served with an "K50-A" class than a "K50_Pro" class.

4. I would at least shoot some and maybe more spots. I'd be doing a lot more hunting and fishing.

5. The ASA is definitely the best archery org at staying in tune with it's customers.

6. Grow? At what point is greater attendance alone NOT good growth? Expanding tournament base and quantity to garner greater participation might be the best growth pattern, i.e. "ASA West".


Just because literally a handful of folks want K50-Pro it does not mean it would be successful. A K40 class with Open C being unknown or half/half is more likely to be successful.


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## n2bows (May 21, 2002)

tmorelli said:


> I doubt this is anything more than rehashing what has been said elsewhere. But, counterpoints-
> 
> 1. It is a lot easier to raise that hand than it is to hand over that cash. You and I both know that more than doubling the entry fee would severely lower attendance... regardless of who says what beforehand.
> 
> ...



Haven't you been shooting ASA long enough to remember that there use to be 4 pro classes? Open Pro, Womens Pro, Senior Pro, and Limited Pro. And the contingency was the same then for open pros as it is now. I do not think that the contingency would go down for any of the pro classes if a Known Pro class was added. 


I believe the FEW people who are VERY GOOD at judging yardage (pro and amateur alike) have an agenda just like the people who are not good at judging yardage. 


On the rest of this stuff. I think that you are way off base, and you think that I am way off base. So we will have to agree to disagree. And we will see what happens in the next 3 to 5 years.


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## n2bows (May 21, 2002)

tmorelli said:


> I understood that. I'm saying, why are they shooting them? And implying, it is because that is what is being offered, especially at the entry level, where the true growth is.


When Open C was started, it was all unknown. Then it went to half and half. Now it is all known.


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## Kstigall (Feb 24, 2004)

bhtr3d said:


> Tom.....this side of.the sport.....you really don't have a clue about....just like the old old heads we have here in Florida for nfaa .....your lost....
> 
> Here something you don't know.....in ASA early years.....you had to go to a school/marketing school and had to shoot a test course and achieve a set score to be listed as a pro.....
> 
> ...


You didn't have to say "in Florida". Generally speaking, the entire NFAA is poorly assembled and administered. Their vision of archery is locked in on the '60's to the the very early '80's. They are the very ones that adamantly refused to readily accept 3D. How far behind the ASA was the NFAA in using modern technology? A decade(?) or more (?). In Virginia the collective age of the 5 leaders is wayover 300.......Kendall Woody keeps the number down!


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## Kstigall (Feb 24, 2004)

n2bows said:


> Haven't you been shooting ASA long enough to remember that there use to be 4 pro classes? Open Pro, Womens Pro, Senior Pro, and Limited Pro. And the contingency was the same then for open pros as it is now. I do not think that the contingency would go down for any of the pro classes if a Known Pro class was added.
> 
> 
> I believe the FEW people who are VERY GOOD at judging yardage (pro and amateur alike) have an agenda just like the people who are not good at judging yardage.
> ...


I wouldn't be so sure. If the value of the "class" (product) is decreased then the value of the reward should or at least could decrease. I seriously doubt that all of Hoyt's Pro's, for example, have the same incentives in their contracts.


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## 3dbowmaster (Sep 16, 2005)

We definitely need a middle of the road Unknown Open class with a 35/40yd max


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## sagecreek (Jul 15, 2003)

3dbowmaster said:


> We definitely need a middle of the road Unknown Open class with a 35/40yd max


Yep, start short and work your way up.


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## trumankayak (Dec 28, 2011)

I need a k25 class


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## deadeye270 (Jan 9, 2005)

As long as you guys and the ASA let me shoot from the elementary pins stake in my own division called the "peewee outlaw open division" where I am the only competitor.... I might be able to win.... and by the way at that distance I'm cool with the whole thing being unknown


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## Tallcatt (Jul 27, 2003)

tmorelli said:


> Actually, how can you say that the growth in known distance isn't because that is where the new offerings are? % of known vs unknown players..... look at the classes offered. Just from memory.....
> 
> Known side-
> Novice
> ...


Tony.....Offense taken. When you get old people just forget about you. :wink:

Sr. Open 75 shooters (London) All Unknown
Super Sr. 56 shooters (London) All Unknown
Sr. Masters 29 shooters (London) All Unknown

Total 160 shooters

You also left out:

Sr. Known 73 shooters All Known
Sr. Hunter 37 shooters 1/2 and 1/2


Unknown distance is all we have ever known (no play on words intended). The only known distance I have ever shot was the two years we shot 1/2 known and 1/2 unknown at ASA events. I can't speak for all the senior classes shooters, but I know most of us love unknown distance. Its the game we have always played. With this being said I would continue to shoot ASA 3D regardless of the format.


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## tmorelli (Jul 31, 2005)




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## shootstraight (Apr 28, 2005)

None of this answers the question of how do they handle the growth. Yes going to more known classes has brought growth, I can't see how eliminating a bunch of unknown classes enhances growth. How about some contructive ideas on how to handle growing.


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## field14 (May 21, 2002)

tmorelli said:


> The numbers go to the game more shooters want to play. K50 is growing why?.... Because it is open to anyone (pro and amateur alike), because the entry fee is $150 less than pro, because it can be played successfully with a lower level of commitment. All of those things make it a great class. None of those things make it pro. Pro is the best of the best. Pro requires ALL the skills of the game, not just some. Pro should be exclusive. We all agree that depth of payout matters....
> 
> What would happen to open pro if the entry fee was lowered to $125?
> 
> ...


Again, you put words into my mouth that aren't there! You ridicule me and don't have a clue of what I'm about, period....ZERO clue, in fact...you simply draw generalizations and figure I don't know squat.

I would NEVER EVER want 3-D to be ALL "known distance"...over my dead body on that issue! THis "Best of the best statement about "Pro Divisions" is so bogus on YOUR part.
In the NFAA PRO division...it is NOT and NEVER has been ALL them in there as "the best of the best". It NEVER will be in IBO or ASA that all of them in Open Pro (or whatever they call it) are ALL the BEST OF THE BEST...The cream always rises to the top. Many shoot in the NFAA Pro Division or the Chamionship division so that they don't have to shoot at 7AM on the last day of the event (Vegas in particular), Many of them are simply trying to place "in the money" and know they don't stand a chance of WINNING. Many more want to rub elbows with the top guns in hopes of learning something to help them improve. Many more just like the "I'm a Pro moniker" as a status symbol...Far from the "best of the best."

I also agree that IF K50 REALLY wants to be recognized as "PRO"....then dang it, the entry fee should NOT be lower that Open Pro! You want to shoot for big bucks, then ante up and get off the porch and try to run with the big dogs!
I like a suggestion I read earlier (on another web-site) of allowing the K50 "Pro" and Open Pro to shoot BOTH classes in the same tournament, with the requirement that they also ante up the $275 for _each_ class they shoot ($275 for K50 AND another $275 for Open Pro). Shoot ALL 40 Targets for K50 Pro on Friday and then go at it for Open Pro as normal. Since K50 wouldn't require judging, but will require learning the animals (NO AIMING DOTS EVER!!!), the K50 Pro shooters could be off the range in probably around 4-5 hours time for their 40 shots.
Sure upping the ante may thin the herd a bit...but with the potential of more shooters and obviously more money from registration fees and paying deeper, it could really make for something special Can't force them to shoot BOTH, but the option could be presented to allow it. The "Pros" that have the mettle are going to where the money can be won...the cream rises to the top...but "finishing in the money" is a goal of many that shoot "Pro." Some make the goal...most don't.
field14 (Tom D.)


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## sharptrenton (Jul 8, 2006)

I think that the known classes have a place in ASA, but I don't think there should be a Known Pro class. In my opinion a Pro 3D shooter should be very good in all aspects of the game including judging yardage.


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## frog gigger (May 4, 2007)

shootstraight said:


> None of this answers the question of how do they handle the growth. Yes going to more known classes has brought growth, I can't see how eliminating a bunch of unknown classes enhances growth. How about some contructive ideas on how to handle growing.


Yea, how will they handle it? Scheduled range times were behind 90 minutes due to the 240+ in C at London. 
One constructive idea, pre-registration only, 120 shooters max on the range, start enforcing the time limit per shooter. 
Until larger event sites can be found, ASA can't handle growth.


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## bhtr3d (Feb 13, 2004)

frog gigger said:


> Yea, how will they handle it? Scheduled range times were behind 90 minutes due to the 240+ in C at London.
> One constructive idea, pre-registration only, 120 shooters max on the range, start enforcing the time limit per shooter.
> Until larger event sites can be found, ASA can't handle growth.


I don't see that happening. ...asa is a business so why would someone limit how much money they make??


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## n2bows (May 21, 2002)

While I was mowing the grass yesterday evening. I was thinking about this thread and just archery in general. When I first started shooting competitive archery in the late eighties. In my area almost everyone shot 2D targets, and there were only two classes, fingers and release. And everyone had screw in points. Then along came glue in points, movable sights, long stabilizers, 3D targets, 12 rings, carbon arrows, range finders, ect ect ect. And ALL of these changes in our sport was met with resistance. And most of them were suppose to be the ruination of 3D archery. And of course that didn't happen, and 3D archery ASA in particular is bigger than I can ever remember. 

My point is. Do I think that unknown 3D archery not be offered in ASA. No I do not. I think that unknown should always be offered. But I do think that Known distance 3D is the direction 3D is headed. 

And ASA has something for everyone. Both unknown and Known. 

So my question to everyone who is against ASA having a Known Pro Class. Is why do you care?


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## tmorelli (Jul 31, 2005)

n2bows said:


> So my question to everyone who is against ASA having a Known Pro Class. Is why do you care?


Because known yardage is a simplification, a dumbing down, of the game I love.

There are generations of men and women who have worked hard to develop their yardage judging skills and to be called a pro, in 3d, without that skill is to be awarded for copping out. 

We all agree that the creation of a known pro will mark the decline of unknown pro because the money will shift. I'd rather 3d pro stay elite, small and specialized and as I alluded to, I'd hate to see the dumbed down version of our sport at the pinnacle of the game. The NBA should play on 10' rims, no matter what the elementary kids do.

For whatever period of time there would be two men's pro class types, we are adding yet another "champion". I've said my piece on this dynamic before. Then, there are two options basically....the manufacturers award them equally or award one more than the other. In either case, all this bickering never stops. If open pro gets more, bumper pro keeps whining. If bumper pro gets more, open pro dies. If they get equal, we might as well call it redistribution of wealth....since more people get less. I have no reason to believe that any manufacturer is chomping at the bit to pay out double the pro contingency on any given weekend. 

Then what, senior known pro, women's known pro?


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## carlosii (Feb 25, 2007)

tmorelli said:


> Because known yardage is a simplification, a dumbing down, of the game I love.
> 
> There are generations of men and women who have worked hard to develop their yardage judging skills and to be called a pro, in 3d, without that skill is to be awarded for copping out.
> 
> ...


We need a Senior Master Pro class first...keep the current entry fee...but put lots of money from the vendors in the pot.

AND NO KNOWN YARDAGE!!

:cheers:


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## n2bows (May 21, 2002)

tmorelli said:


> Because known yardage is a simplification, a dumbing down, of the game I love.
> 
> There are generations of men and women who have worked hard to develop their yardage judging skills and to be called a pro, in 3d, without that skill is to be awarded for copping out.
> 
> ...



In your way of thinking, the archers who shoot indoor spots, outdoor fita, world cup, or any other form of archery other than unknown yardage 3D. Do not work as hard as the archers who shoot unknown yardage 3D? And Tony, if that is what you think, YOU ARE WRONG!!!!!!!!!!!! The archers who shoot known yardage archery no matter what the form. Work just as hard as the unknown yardage 3D archers. They have just have more time to work on other parts of their game.

I would rather see a pro class with 200 shooters in it. Than one with only 48.


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## tmorelli (Jul 31, 2005)

n2bows said:


> In your way of thinking, the archers who shoot indoor spots, outdoor fita, world cup, or any other form of archery other than unknown yardage 3D. Do not work as hard as the archers who shoot unknown yardage 3D? And Tony, if that is what you think, YOU ARE WRONG!!!!!!!!!!!! The archers who shoot known yardage archery no matter what the form. Work just as hard as the unknown yardage 3D archers. They have just have more time to work on other parts of their game.
> 
> I would rather see a pro class with 200 shooters in it. Than one with only 48.


That is not what I think.

I think they've chosen to be excellent spot shooters, not excellent 3d shooters and the top of the 3d game shouldn't be changed to accommodate them. 

There are plenty of venues for them to play in, and ASA obviously welcomes them. In this system, they can even be pros but if they want to be competitive in ASA 3d, they should probably learn the game.


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## BowHuntnKY (Dec 10, 2008)

I wish mike t would just come out and say...nothings changing....like or or leave it....so all this high school drama can go away....

Id like it ALL to stay the SAME, EXCEPT have open c 40yd 1/2 and 1/2, and just a k40.


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## shootstraight (Apr 28, 2005)

BowHuntnKY said:


> I wish mike t would just come out and say...nothings changing....like or or leave it....so all this high school drama can go away....
> 
> Id like it ALL to stay the SAME, EXCEPT have open c 40yd 1/2 and 1/2, and just a k40.


From what I was told by a couple pro's was this known drama only applies to the pros and not amatuers.


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## bhtr3d (Feb 13, 2004)

Thought I would share this article on the k50 pro class drama...

http://puttingitontheline.com/arche...-by-john-chandler-levi-morgan-and-david-lain/


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## Supermag1 (Jun 11, 2009)

Good article.


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## reylamb (Feb 5, 2003)

n2bows said:


> Haven't you been shooting ASA long enough to remember that there use to be 4 pro classes? Open Pro, Womens Pro, Senior Pro, and Limited Pro. And the contingency was the same then for open pros as it is now. I do not think that the contingency would go down for any of the pro classes if a Known Pro class was added.
> 
> 
> I believe the FEW people who are VERY GOOD at judging yardage (pro and amateur alike) have an agenda just like the people who are not good at judging yardage.
> ...


Contingency is the same today as it was then?

You sure about that?


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## ar1220 (May 18, 2014)

That was a great article and Levi made a great point this ain't about known vs unk. Or being considered a pro its more of I want what you got but I don't wanna work as hard or pay for it..its the mentality of this country now.and yes a pro is someone that has exelled at the top of all aspects of there chosen sport.in archery especially 3d archery that means not only being an excellent shot..having a strong mental game..BUT also judging yardage


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## carlosii (Feb 25, 2007)

bhtr3d said:


> Thought I would share this article on the k50 pro class drama...
> 
> http://puttingitontheline.com/arche...-by-john-chandler-levi-morgan-and-david-lain/


Tim, there's a fine line between drama....and comedy.


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## carlosii (Feb 25, 2007)

Shot with a young man today at the Indiana ASA championship and asked him if he would continue to shoot Open C if it were made half and half. He was very emphatic in his "NO".
That would probably be true of several people currently shooting Open C.

Don't know what that tells ya.


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## BowHuntnKY (Dec 10, 2008)

carlosii said:


> Shot with a young man today at the Indiana ASA championship and asked him if he would continue to shoot Open C if it were made half and half. He was very emphatic in his "NO".
> That would probably be true of several people currently shooting Open C.
> 
> Don't know what that tells ya.


Good turn out for indiana? I was going to go but bass and bucks is just to far for me to do alone.

That's why i suggested a k30 and open c 1/2 and 1/2. "Open" shooter have a path up and known guys have a path up.

I will stay known asong as there in known classes... or learn to judge, but im to lazy


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## math1963 (Apr 9, 2014)

ar1220 said:


> Me personally its a done deal as for me with bow junky...he would not even post the leaderboard for the pros under the presence of he was gone do it for the high school 3d deal...


I went to the Paris Tx shoot in may and Friday was a complete wash out with rain. So, the Pros were all given an even 200 points for the day and it would be decided on Saturday. I noticed that Levi was not part of the Pro shootdown as usual. The story that quickly moved through the crowed was that Levi made a decision based on the BowJunky leader board that he only needed a 10 on last target in order to make the shootdown. He shot a 10. Supposedly, the leader board was wrong and he needed a 12 thus missing the shootdown. Dan McCarthy mentions the problem with the scores in this video 




This might be the issue with the Pros and BowJunky.


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## Luv2shoot3D (Feb 4, 2013)

Nice video


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## sagecreek (Jul 15, 2003)

Good article David Lain.


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