# rage broadhead vs muzzy



## Jared Les

Muzzy. Too many Rage horror stories to even consider them.


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## s4 shooter

muzzy 
same here to meny horror stories


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## x-force hunter

Stay with the muzzys.


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## countryboy173

Agreed with the other guys.. some people swear by Rage, and a lot of them have good results with them. Although they have a 2 inch cutting diameter or whatever it is, eveybody says there is very poor penetration. I would stick with the muzzys, or try some Grim Reapers,, i love mine


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## Alexb7109

i tried rages this year. punched a shoulder. no penetration at all. arrow simply fell out. im switching to g5 montecs next year


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## young hunter

im in the same predicament as you and after watching this video im deffinetly not going to be shooting rage. who care if they make a 2 inch cut if they cant punch through a shoulder blade.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aZRzBYuBIc4


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## Waknstak6

young hunter said:


> im in the same predicament as you and after watching this video im deffinetly not going to be shooting rage. who care if they make a 2 inch cut if they cant punch through a shoulder blade.
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aZRzBYuBIc4


Spend some time with your bow and stay away from that frickin shoulder!!!! Any broadhead on todays market will kill a deer, if properly placed, hell even a feild point would do it....Also, this site has a search tool, use it, u will find out a whole lot of info. I love my ST's but the rage 2 blade is devastating, end of story.


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## kegan

Waknstak6 said:


> Spend some time with your bow and stay away from that frickin shoulder!!!! Any broadhead on todays market will kill a deer, if properly placed, hell even a feild point would do it....Also, this site has a search tool, use it, u will find out a whole lot of info. I love my ST's but the rage 2 blade is devastating, end of story.


That's all well and good, but in the _real world_ not everything goes right. No matter how good a shot you are. So why would ou bother with something you know to have issues in less than perfect conditions? If newer and bigger is always better, why are Magnus Stingers still around- and so popular, even with compound shooters?


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## fikester

I personally would not touch the rage, have had too many bad experiences with mech heads period...if you get shoulder blade, or turn away angled shots, penetration is sometimes an issue. The other problem if even got the deer my expensive carbon arrow would be broken....cause it didnt have a complete pass through. The last several years have been using Ultimate Steel 100gr....my results: complete pass through every time, regardless of angle or bone shots. The arrow lays on the other side of where the deer stood...reuse the arrow and head. Is the hole 6" wide, no....dont need to be.

http://www.trophyridge.com/broadheads/



Note: To me using these wide cutting heads 3"-4" cut is like putting a plow from a state road truck on a personal pick up truck.....useless?


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## Joe(y)

I would stick with Muzzys. Personally I love the Magnuss snuffers. They rip them up. With a muzzy so much less can go wrong.


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## RollinCoal2

i think muzzys make my arrows drop quicker, so i stuck with my trophy ridge hammerhead expandables


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## 10gblevins02

depends on what kind of muzzy your shootin.....if its like a mx3 id drop it there cheap the blades are to then...if it phamtoms keep em those are great.....rage no says i id go for a muzzy phantom, magnus stinger, g5 montec...leave expandbles out of the picture


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## BowBoy78

*muzzys!*
Snuffers dont do to bad either
tougher than $#!?
bowtechcaptian9 shot a doe with one and it didnt work 
ive personaly never seen one in real life but he said it didnt cut like they said it would
he now shoots G5


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## fishycatfish

I shoot the rage three blades and haven't had any problems...all but one were pass throughs and even punched through a few shoulders but if i was gonna shoot a fixed blade i would go with a slick trick over the muzzy


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## Waknstak6

*So why would ou bother with something you know to have issues in less than perfect conditions?*

This is y I dont shoot them anymore, but with any time of head their is advantages. example would be a rage will not pen. as much soooo if your error is torward the shoulder, you're pry not gonna have success. But if you hit back on the deer( gut or even thigh) there isnt much bone and the 2in cut will no doubt help reach any big blood lines thre might be present...not such the case with a ST standard or mag.

One must always, no matter the curcumstances, wait wait wait for that broadside to quartering away shot, and aviod the areas that may give them trouble( shoulder, guts), no matter there equipment. To each his own, as for me, im doin my pokin with a ST mag.


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## heelsfan413

I dont know about all of the horror stories but I used to shoot G5 montecs and my buddy was shooting the muzzy 3 blade. We have both switched to the rage 2 blade and man.. the bloods trails are so a blind person could follow them and I shot a buck today and he went 10 yards and fell out. 

I am not looking back and totally satisfied with the rage! Massive entrance holes and deadly, try the rage for yourself and see the diference.


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## kegan

Waknstak- Your argument is faulty. You can miss and hit the guts, but can't miss and hit the shoulder? I hope that's what you _are_ saying, and not intentionally saying to shoot in the stomach. Either way- you've moved on from them, and that's more than enough for me to not try to argue with you. You're new selection speaks for itself

Heelsfan- You just prove the entire purpose of heads like that. Remove skill from the equation. "If you ca't track, get a Rage!" Meanwhile, you're risking the same thing you were before the blood trails were massive: animals getting away. Is that better or worse? I don't know. Either way, there's a chance an animal will be lost. Personally? I wouldn't trust a mechanical head. There are too many other big ol' honkin' heads like Snuffers out there for quick kills on deer. But even those sacrific penetration too...


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## cali hunter

ive never shoot rage but i use muzzy for small game only, because they are cheap. but ive heard good and bads about both. like the muzzy my buddy shot a pig and the muzzy pretty much shattered and he nnever hit the shoulder. so that is why i use them to shoot rabits and coyotes and stuff never big game like pig, deer, elk, etc. but it depends on what you want to spend on a broadhead and what you shoot good with. if i may suggest a broadhead to try g5 montec best for the money.:thumbs_up
but if you had to go with one of those to go with muzzy.


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## x-force hunter

If your friends muzzy shattered when it hit the hog then either your friend is lying or he hadn't put it together correctly. If nobody here on AT has ever had a muzzy actually break then I doubt your friends muzzy shattered without hitting any bone. If you want you can look up muzzy using the search to find the thread.


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## cali hunter

ya he was probaly didnt put it together right.but i still wouldnt use them on any big game. g5 montec i think is still better than any broadhead ive ever used.:thumbs_up


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## countryboy173

Wow, its like the Bowhunter showcase just in the youth forum..


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## TaylorDennis92

the rage was a 3 blade that 2 of the 3 blades opened upon impact the the deer spun around as it was shot so it was hit a little far back but made a huge exit whole and as the deer was running off the arrow fell out the other side.


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## deerburner

rage all the way, you will see blood trails like someone took a power painter and sprayed red paint all over the woods (assumeing a good hit)
have not had a problem yet


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## Ignition kid

Muzzy's are definitely "bad to the bone", my dad shot a hog this weekend with his bow at 20 yards and the pig was quartering away hard and his arrow exited out it's opposite shoulder and the arrow pass-through and the hog ran maybe 30-40 yards and i have hit hogs square in the shoulder and it punched right through it and the blood trail was very good. the rages i have heard really good and also really bad about, If you're pulling enough poundage and your bow has alot of kinetic energy then you might consider trying the rages, my dad has shot them(the 2 blade) at hogs and they punch huge holes entrance and both exit and great blood trails. he shot a doe in ohio @ 40 yards and it pass-through it and it ran maybe 40 yards with a double lung shot. What i don't like about the rages is the tip on them, i don't really think it will punch through shoulders like a muzzy will. Like i said, if you're pulling enought poundage like 65-70 then you should try them.


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## Ignition kid

10gblevins02 said:


> depends on what kind of muzzy your shootin.....if its like a mx3 id drop it there cheap the blades are to then...if it phamtoms keep em those are great.....rage no says i id go for a muzzy phantom, magnus stinger, g5 montec...leave expandbles out of the picture


I shoot MX-3's and they aren't cheap quality, they don't cost alot and they are reliable and get the job done in a good way. they also fly incredible and are very hard hitting, if you bend the main blade on a phantom then the broadhead is useless unless you can bend the blade back, and the mx-3 if anything other than the ferrule cracks or anything, you can buy replacemet blades for 6 broadheads for $15-$16 and you can buy the trocar tips and i have never had a ferrule break on me and usually I can resharpen the blades and put them back in my quiver.


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## kegan

deerburner said:


> rage all the way, you will see blood trails like someone took a power painter and sprayed red paint all over the woods (assumeing a good hit)
> have not had a problem yet


This all goes back to the only reason there even ARE heads like the rage: no tracking ability. Humans are just lazy.


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## LittleBucker

why shoot rages my dad shot rages this year and did not open and last year the stupid thing broke muzzy know da
i do not shoot muzzys but i still think that muzzys is buter i shoot amiracan brod heads and i am 10 and my draw weght is only 35 and they went right therw the shoulder please give me a report on my brodheads
p.s. muzzy!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## cagd_1992

i shoot the rage 3 blade and when i shot my buck this year it didn't pass through. It didn't penetrate much and took forever to track.


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## presmyk

thats like asking apples or oranges lol you would have to shoot a tekan to be close to the same cut dia. on that plywood shoot to be fair and i bet that they would be about the same


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## dashboard923

I used to shoot the Rage 3 blades until I switched to the G5 Montecs. If I were you, the Montecs are the way to go.


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## dutch07

ttt


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## kody10

i personally have had no problems with my rages. my uncle has shot three does in the last month with rage 2 blades and all were complete pass throughs. all three deer went less than 40 yards and fell over dead. i dont understand why u wouldnt want to shoot rages. do you people enjoy tracking or something? i prefer to see the animal fall over from my stand. and that rage that somebody said hit the deer in the shoulder and fell out must have not had much force behind it. just my 2 cents.


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## N7709K

since rages are illegal here, i can't shoot them. 

Even if I could, i wouldn't. It isn't that hard to tune fixed blades


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## dutch07

ttt


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## kegan

kody10 said:


> i personally have had no problems with my rages. my uncle has shot three does in the last month with rage 2 blades and all were complete pass throughs. all three deer went less than 40 yards and fell over dead. i dont understand why u wouldnt want to shoot rages. do you people enjoy tracking or something? i prefer to see the animal fall over from my stand. and that rage that somebody said hit the deer in the shoulder and fell out must have not had much force behind it. just my 2 cents.


Are you _incapable_ of tracking, or just don't think that killing an animal is worth the effort? In real life, stuff goes wrong. That's why not everyone shoots rages. Simple as that.

Newer and fancier are just more steps towards removing skill. Even at the cost of game- as others have had. Just because you haven't had problems, doesn't mean others haven't.


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## x-force hunter

If I was going to use an expandable I would use bloodrunners.


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## carmanusa

Alexb7109 said:


> i tried rages this year. punched a shoulder. no penetration at all. arrow simply fell out. im switching to g5 montecs next year


x2!!! except i'm going back to my muzzy's


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## buck murdurer

Waknstak6 said:


> Spend some time with your bow and stay away from that frickin shoulder!!!! Any broadhead on todays market will kill a deer, if properly placed, hell even a feild point would do it....Also, this site has a search tool, use it, u will find out a whole lot of info. I love my ST's but the rage 2 blade is devastating, end of story.


sometimes u hit the shoulder,sometimes u dont,but why have to woory about it man??i shoot pse xforce and g5 montecs.iv killed 2 bucks 4 years old +,and shot through both front shoulders,shoot whats reall and you will get a clean kill.


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## archerykid13

Either Muzzys or try some Grim Reapers. I shot a doe and she was quartering away and I punched through the shoulder bone.


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## browningRAGE

I use Rage 2-Blade. Personally I think they are the best out their. My friend hit a doe at about 45 yards. She went about 30 yards and collapsed. The only reason Rage's don't penetrate is when you don't have enought kinetic energy behind it. I pull 68# and they work great!


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## cropdustersteve

Muzzy, tricks, or G5's.


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## heelsfan413

dashboard923 said:


> I used to shoot the Rage 3 blades until I switched to the G5 Montecs. If I were you, the Montecs are the way to go.


I see you switched from Rage to Montecs.. Well I am the reverse, I shot 2 deer with my Montec 100gr.. both perfect shots, one 19yds, one 31 yds.. no pass thru, not much blood.. recoverd 1 animal, not the other.. I switched to Rage 2 blade and I have 2 deer down.. neither ran more than 40 yds so it really is a personal thing I guess. 

If you still have the Rage bheads I would be willing to trade you my Montecs for your Rage.. I have 3 left I think and a pract head all in good condition.. Interested? if so PM me.. that goes for anyone who wants to get rid of their rage 100gr's!


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## x-force hunter

Here is a Muzzy kill with the entrence and exit wounds. The shot was at thirty yards, slightly quartering to me and the deer went down within 30 yards. That is with the muzzy 3 blade which has a 1 1/8" cutting diameter. So why is a rage necesary. I'm not trying to bash rage but a 2" cutting diameter isn't going to make much of a diffference.


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## jbpf4l

muzzy is better than the rage i shot a turkey with the rage at about 35 yrds it flew off my cuzin decided to hunt with the muzzys he shot a deer at about 30 yrds we didnt know his buddy steped on his sight so he hit it in the neck but it went completly threw its neck it got the job done i think i will hunt with the muzzy next year


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## kegan

jbpf4l said:


> muzzy is better than the rage i shot a turkey with the rage at about 35 yrds it flew off my cuzin decided to hunt with the muzzys he shot a deer at about 30 yrds we didnt know his buddy steped on his sight so he hit it in the neck but it went completly threw its neck it got the job done i think i will hunt with the muzzy next year


I'm sorta anti-mechanical head, but in all fairness turkey's are different than other big game animals. They can get away with just about any arrow in them if something goes wrong.


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## BowBoy78

x-force hunter said:


> If your friends muzzy shattered when it hit the hog then either your friend is lying or he hadn't put it together correctly. If nobody here on AT has ever had a muzzy actually break then I doubt your friends muzzy shattered without hitting any bone. If you want you can look up muzzy using the search to find the thread.


correct the muzzy is next to the snuffers the toughest broadhead i have ever shot i nicked the shoulderblade of that doe i shot this year and bent the broadhead all the way over that it was within a quarter inch of the next blade on my 3 blades. my dad has shot them for as long as i can rember and i have never seen one break


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## BowBoy78

x-force hunter said:


> Here is a Muzzy kill with the entrence and exit wounds. The shot was at thirty yards, slightly quartering to me and the deer went down within 30 yards. That is with the muzzy 3 blade which has a 1 1/8" cutting diameter. So why is a rage necesary. I'm not trying to bash rage but a 2" cutting diameter isn't going to make much of a diffference.


100 or 125?
my dad shot a doe with a 125 3blade and left a treturous hole that measured 1 3/4. but thats when we hung him up so that hole could be distorted a little
ive got the pictures on my phone but i cant get them off of my phone


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## LittleBucker

THEY DO HAVE ALL RIGHT BLOOD TRAILS BUT YOUR GOIN A TRACK THEM FOR HOURS


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## hunting_4_life

ok Ok Ok lol now we all are going to have opposing diffrences in choices me well i like everything. im not super ecited about muzzys for the simple fact i have spent hours upon hours trying to sight my bow in so i could shoot them.. with little or no results because they always fly high and right. And now on to rage i have shot them they put one hellactious hole and the penatration could be better but ehh you know it happens.Another broadhead i really like is the boss bullet very small broadhed only a one inch cutting diamater but s we know every movemnet a deer makes the more it tears up i took a doe at 55 yards this last year with one and she ran a whopping 30 yards after she got hit.


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## LittleBucker

LittleBucker said:


> THEY DO HAVE ALL RIGHT BLOOD TRAILS BUT YOUR GOIN A TRACK THEM FOR HOURS


i was talking about rage


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## x-force hunter

BowBoy78 said:


> 100 or 125?
> my dad shot a doe with a 125 3blade and left a treturous hole that measured 1 3/4. but thats when we hung him up so that hole could be distorted a little
> ive got the pictures on my phone but i cant get them off of my phone


I was using the 100 which has a 1 1/8" cutting diameter. I'm going to get some MX-3s for this year.


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## PA3-DArcher4

It depends if your bow is in tune...


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## kegan

PA3-DArcher4 said:


> It depends if your bow is in tune...


Exactly. It's just a matter of getting everythign reacting the way it should be, which comes down to how well you can do it. There are archers who can bareshaft out to 100 yards with _recurves_ shooting with _fingers_. I've personally heard one too many stories about people switching to mechanicals because they simply "couldn't get their arrows tuned", both compound and traditional shooters. 

Phooey on that I say.


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## huntfish

*Muzzy*

Long and short of it is where you put that stick. I've shot both of these heads and many more. The rage well cuts a whopping hole. Down side one shot and buy another. Their blades just aren't easy to find. Muzzy's fly perfect when you shoot a tuned rig with the proper arrows. Sometimes that takes tinkering. The slick trick shoots very well but noisy out past 30. Muzzy's customer service is awesome. Had some issues and within 5 days had new trocar tips in my mail box and my arrows spinning like tops. Keep it cheap, strong , and simple. Muzzy all the way.:wink:


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## Hoytkiller

Ignition kid said:


> I shoot MX-3's and they aren't cheap quality, they don't cost alot and they are reliable and get the job done in a good way. they also fly incredible and are very hard hitting, if you bend the main blade on a phantom then the broadhead is useless unless you can bend the blade back, and the mx-3 if anything other than the ferrule cracks or anything, you can buy replacemet blades for 6 broadheads for $15-$16 and you can buy the trocar tips and i have never had a ferrule break on me and usually I can resharpen the blades and put them back in my quiver.


Well said, I love my MX-3's. They fly good and I have never had a problem with them. I use them because I can buy 6 of them for the price of 3 of the rages or any other head like it.


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## swompthang

yea i would stay with muzzy i shot an 8 point last year and droped it not a fan of rage ive got friends that shot rage and lost some nice bucks with good shots.so go with muzzy.


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## Knottygirl

i wouldn't use rage if they were free...

and, for that matter, they are farrr from free.

just my 2 cents...


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## TaylorDennis92

i bought some mx-3s and absolutely demolished the turkey's wing and went completely through the turkey and went aother 20 yards beyond the turkey the turkey went 10 feet and died 


muzzy mx-3s all the way


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## FULLER

rage 2-blade!!!!My buddy put a 2 inch hole in this does shoulder, she went 50 yards.


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## kegan

FULLER said:


> rage 2-blade!!!!My buddy put a 2 inch hole in this does shoulder, she went 50 yards.


You can do that with just about any good two-blade cut on contact arrw head out there like Stos or Magnus.


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## N7709K

I can't shoot rage(legally) since the 2 blades cam open too large and the 3 blade jam open and become barbed. 

Rage has a good idea and product, but they are too expensive. I can get 6 muzzys for the same price as 3 rage. 

I have also never had flight issues with fixed blades to make them worth while


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## KRPAYNE

*Inform and not Scorn*

I would think the whole point behind a forum is to inform each other on our own personal experiences with each broadhead and not bash one another for using either. Right? I personally use both Muzzy and Rage and both do an equally good job with the right shot placement which is our part and the rest is up to the arrow and broadhead. I have shot Muzzy three blade 125's for the better part of 12+ years and I have only lost 2 deer during that time and it was not the arrow or broadheads fault but simply mine by not waiting just a little bit longer for that perfect shot but rushing things like we all so often do. I have shot Rage for the last two years and have not lost a deer to them yet but am sure as with all bow hunting I probably will if I make a bad shot or rush things once again. With that being said a arrow and broadhead are what I consider a TOOL and as such they don't make mistakes, but rather the USERS of the tools do. Maybe that is the bigger issue!!


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## muzzyhunter17

KRPAYNE said:


> I would think the whole point behind a forum is to inform each other on our own personal experiences with each broadhead and not bash one another for using either. Right? I personally use both Muzzy and Rage and both do an equally good job with the right shot placement which is our part and the rest is up to the arrow and broadhead. I have shot Muzzy three blade 125's for the better part of 12+ years and I have only lost 2 deer during that time and it was not the arrow or broadheads fault but simply mine by not waiting just a little bit longer for that perfect shot but rushing things like we all so often do. I have shot Rage for the last two years and have not lost a deer to them yet but am sure as with all bow hunting I probably will if I make a bad shot or rush things once again. With that being said a arrow and broadhead are what I consider a TOOL and as such they don't make mistakes, but rather the USERS of the tools do. Maybe that is the bigger issue!!




You are right, that's why it is a good thing no bashing was done on this thread right?


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## joelpresmyk8

well despite what everyone says i bought some rage just to try them out and i also bought the g5 montecs. i wanna see which are better imo


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## kegan

Anybody read Dr. Ashbey's reports?

He did ALOT of testing with longbows and compounds to find the most effective gear for real big game- and all penetration for that matter. In his studies, with no agenda besides trying to get the most humane kills and help save archery from being outlawed due to lost game he found:

1. Hole size doesn't matter, penetration does. 
2. When encountering bone most mechanical and assembled heads simply fell apart. The exception in the first test, done more than ten years ago, was Muzzy.
3. Momentum and arrow selection mean more than KE just about every time.

Now, he found out ALOT more than that, but since most of you are just white tail hunters it wouldn't really mean much. White tail are easy to kill. For that reason, you should simply use any good head that will hold together and give you good penetration. Stop buying into the gimmicks and advertisements. This information isn't new, it's been around for hundreds if not thousands of years for a REASON!


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## muzzyhunter17

kegan said:


> Anybody read Dr. Ashbey's reports?
> 
> He did ALOT of testing with longbows and compounds to find the most effective gear for real big game- and all penetration for that matter. In his studies, with no agenda besides trying to get the most humane kills and help save archery from being outlawed due to lost game he found:
> 
> 1. Hole size doesn't matter, penetration does.
> 2. When encountering bone most mechanical and assembled heads simply fell apart. The exception in the first test, done more than ten years ago, was Muzzy.
> 3. Momentum and arrow selection mean more than KE just about every time.
> 
> Now, he found out ALOT more than that, but since most of you are just white tail hunters it wouldn't really mean much. White tail are easy to kill. For that reason, you should simply use any good head that will hold together and give you good penetration. Stop buying into the gimmicks and advertisements. This information isn't new, it's been around for hundreds if not thousands of years for a REASON!




Nice post, I love muzzy's and T-loc....I have had muzzy blades break twice on me so far...I on a Black Bear and the other on a Moose, so now I just use muzzy's on my trips to Oregon for deer and stuff, and use the shuttle T loc's for the big game here.


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## kegan

I never did find out what style of Muzy was used in those original tests, but I do know that none of the mechanical or assembled heads managed to penetrate a zebra scapula (equivalent to our elk and moose). In the end, the only heads that came close were reliable two blades, like Grizzly. Today the Magnus Stinger is still quite popular and for good reason. A bit pricey, but a strong, reliable head that carries a lifetime garuntee.


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## cali hunter

Knottygirl said:


> i wouldn't use rage if they were free...
> 
> and, for that matter, they are farrr from free.
> 
> just my 2 cents...


haha thats the way im with mathews you couldnt get me 2 shoot one for a billion dollars. no effence to u mathews shooters


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## muzzyhunter17

cali hunter said:


> haha thats the way im with mathews you couldnt get me 2 shoot one for a billion dollars. no effence to u mathews shooters


hehe I get the feeling that was aimed at someone....What is so bad with mathew's where you woulden't shoot one for a billion dollars??..I guess i can see where you are coming from, if you had a mathews you would go through alot more arrows......busted nocks,robin hoods,sliceing the vane's.......so you are saving money by shooting something else.....oooooo Gotcha


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## Blood

haha love reading your posts Kegan.

I think broadhead tuning is FUN. why would anybody dread it and just be more lazy and go with mechanicals....?

100gr magnus stingers...cant go wrong with em 

heres how they are flying since I got them tuned today.


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## cali hunter

muzzyhunter17 said:


> hehe I get the feeling that was aimed at someone....What is so bad with mathew's where you woulden't shoot one for a billion dollars??..I guess i can see where you are coming from, if you had a mathews you would go through alot more arrows......busted nocks,robin hoods,sliceing the vane's.......so you are saving money by shooting something else.....oooooo Gotcha


haha good one. trust me im not into saving money, and if i was i would shoot a mathews instead of a bowtech. haha go look at the nock that i broke at 70 yards in the came close tread. haha i cant even shoot at the same dot at 80 or closer anymore. if it was a mathews i would be lucky to hit the BROAD SIDE OF A BARN.AT POINT BLANK RANGE. LOL LAMO!!!!


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## muzzyhunter17

cali hunter said:


> haha good one. trust me im not into saving money, and if i was i would shoot a mathews instead of a bowtech. haha go look at the nock that i broke at 70 yards in the came close tread. haha i cant even shoot at the same dot at 80 or closer anymore. if it was a mathews i would be lucky to hit the BROAD SIDE OF A BARN.AT POINT BLANK RANGE. LOL LAMO!!!!


Hahaha so are you saying Mathew's are way cheaper than blowtech?...Actually it would be the other way around depending on what bow:smile:......You have got to be kidding me "I cant shoot at the same dot at 80 or closer"...Give me a break, you aren't that good of a shot I would bet on it, OR you would have a big ole trophy wall from archery.....And as for not being able to hit the broad side of a barn at point blank range, looks like your true shooting ability came out.....Also I saw your post on the nock busted at "70" yards, if it was really a 70 yard shot then good job, but that won't happen often....anyways good chattin with you


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## kegan

Blood- thanks Excellent pictures too, nothing helps drive home a point then a picture of a point that's been driven home

Cali- Making my own wooden bows, I know for a fact that there simply are some bows out there that are inaccurate... however it is never a certain compound brand. Usually the opposite. There's no way you can say a brand is inaccurate when there are obviously people who are extremely accurate with them. 

Now, I can put "Sweet Imperfections", a really unstable longbow I've built, in the hands of the best barebow archer there is- I garuntee you _they_ would have trouble with that thing. However that's a one-bow-case. If Mathews was *so* inaccurate... well, they wouldn't be in business:lol:!


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## muzzyhunter17

kegan said:


> Blood- thanks Excellent pictures too, nothing helps drive home a point then a picture of a point that's been driven home
> 
> Cali- Making my own wooden bows, I know for a fact that there simply are some bows out there that are inaccurate... however it is never a certain compound brand. Usually the opposite. There's no way you can say a brand is inaccurate when there are obviously people who are extremely accurate with them.
> 
> Now, I can put "Sweet Imperfections", a really unstable longbow I've built, in the hands of the best barebow archer there is- I garuntee you _they_ would have trouble with that thing. However that's a one-bow-case. If Mathews was *so* inaccurate... well, they wouldn't be in business:lol:!



I love reading your post's man!!


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## cali hunter

muzzyhunter17 said:


> Hahaha so are you saying Mathew's are way cheaper than blowtech?...Actually it would be the other way around depending on what bow:smile:......You have got to be kidding me "I cant shoot at the same dot at 80 or closer"...Give me a break, you aren't that good of a shot I would bet on it, OR you would have a big ole trophy wall from archery.....And as for not being able to hit the broad side of a barn at point blank range, looks like your true shooting ability came out.....Also I saw your post on the nock busted at "70" yards, if it was really a 70 yard shot then good job, but that won't happen often....anyways good chattin with you


haha . well actually i do have a trophy wall. and its basically full. and my dots i shoot are 3/4 of an inch. so i dont shoot at the same one. and yes it was at 70. but if you dont belive me come down to so cal and shoot with me.


KEGAN: its an inside joke between my family. but i never cared about types of bows. i never hated mathews i just dont like the people who shoot them. cause our friend rich shoots a mathews and he is a good friend, but all of us who shoot together all shoot bowtech so we tease him cause he has a mathews, by the way we always woop his butt in 3-d,s. but anyways my bro and him were joking around back and forth about bows and his bow sucks etc. so some guy who he was shooting a a mathews with rich, cause he was in a diff. group. well this guy flipps out. CUSSES at my bro and he takes off his 5 foot stabilizer and runs at my bro like he was going to hit us. well a range official saw and he wont be coming to shoot for a while. but he didnt hit my bro. so guys like that cant take inside jokes, and hold his temper should not be shooting. thought yall needed to know that little story.


----------



## muzzyhunter17

cali hunter said:


> haha . well actually i do have a trophy wall. and its basically full. and my dots i shoot are 3/4 of an inch. so i dont shoot at the same one. and yes it was at 70. but if you dont belive me come down to so cal and shoot with me.
> 
> 
> KEGAN: its an inside joke between my family. but i never cared about types of bows. i never hated mathews i just dont like the people who shoot them. cause our friend rich shoots a mathews and he is a good friend, but all of us who shoot together all shoot bowtech so we tease him cause he has a mathews, by the way we always woop his butt in 3-d,s. but anyways my bro and him were joking around back and forth about bows and his bow sucks etc. so some guy who he was shooting a a mathews with rich, cause he was in a diff. group. well this guy flipps out. CUSSES at my bro and he takes off his 5 foot stabilizer and runs at my bro like he was going to hit us. well a range official saw and he wont be coming to shoot for a while. but he didnt hit my bro. so guys like that cant take inside jokes, and hold his temper should not be shooting. thought yall needed to know that little story.





That is just rediculous, you don't like the PEOPLE who shoot Mathews?...You are just stereotypeing now, just like me saying I hate you because you are from California.......So the dot's you shoot at are 3/4 an inch?? AT 70 YARDS??...Why don't you post a video of this, I would love to see it and I bet alot of people on the main forum would have great things to say if you could hit a 3/4 inch circle at 70+ yards consistently......Also I can't believe you would post you don't like people who shoot Mathews just because your brother about got his butt kicked by a mathews shooter, BTW sounds like your brother woulda deserved it if he was bashing someone's bow in front of him.......That was a nice story bout the range and all, maybe instead of him needing to control his anger, you're brother should learn to keep his mouth shut and atleast be respectful when shooting with other's.


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## cali hunter

muzzyhunter17 said:


> That is just rediculous, you don't like the PEOPLE who shoot Mathews?...You are just stereotypeing now, just like me saying I hate you because you are from California.......So the dot's you shoot at are 3/4 an inch?? AT 70 YARDS??...Why don't you post a video of this, I would love to see it and I bet alot of people on the main forum would have great things to say if you could hit a 3/4 inch circle at 70+ yards consistently......Also I can't believe you would post you don't like people who shoot Mathews just because your brother about got his butt kicked by a mathews shooter, BTW sounds like your brother woulda deserved it if he was bashing someone's bow in front of him.......That was a nice story bout the range and all, maybe instead of him needing to control his anger, you're brother should learn to keep his mouth shut and atleast be respectful when shooting with other's.


ok ill try to make a video. and by the way u got it all wrong my bro didnt go bashing on some random guys bow. he is my bro best friend,rich, we make fun of him for shooting mathews and he calls are bowtech broketech. so it goes back and for inbetween the 2. and this guy just jumped in. ill make the video as soon as possible. its storming in cali. and i have a pig hunt on friday. but ill do it asap


----------



## muzzyhunter17

cali hunter said:


> ok ill try to make a video. and by the way u got it all wrong my bro didnt go bashing on some random guys bow. he is my bro best friend,rich, we make fun of him for shooting mathews and he calls are bowtech broketech. so it goes back and for inbetween the 2. and this guy just jumped in. ill make the video as soon as possible. its storming in cali. and i have a pig hunt on friday. but ill do it asap


Cool if you post it sometime I will apologize for all the #### I said..{and that isint often}.....Good luck on the pig hunt!


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## archer4life86

I shoot 3 blade rages and haven't had any problems them. And remember how important the draw weight and total arrow weight is to penetration. You could have a needle point that wouldn't penetrate anything without the sufficient kinetic energy, as KE is the most important factor in penetration.


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## kegan

archer4life86 said:


> I shoot 3 blade rages and haven't had any problems them. And remember how important the draw weight and total arrow weight is to penetration. You could have a needle point that wouldn't penetrate anything without the sufficient kinetic energy, *as KE is the most important factor in penetration*.


Not in the slightest. That's the biggest misconception out there. Same with bow weight. However, you did touch on the real secret: arrow weight!

These aren't my opinions, but Dr. Ashby's findings, backed up with real-world tests and some examples of real world game:

The first requirement is that the arrow and broadhead is durable. It must be strong enough to curvive a bone hit at any angle, without breaking, cruling, snapping, or bending. Now, white tails and what not aren't as much an issue as moose, elk, etc., but alot of what's out there isn't as durable as they're claimed to be! 

Next, penetration- total penetration- is the only PROVEN way to kill more quickly. Not the number of blades. To get penetration you: increase arrow weight (650 gr being the "bone threshold"), increase broadhead efficiency (that's mechanical efficiency, not store-bought-efficiency. Longer, narrower, and with fewer blades), use an arrow shaft smaller than the ferrule of the broadhead, and increase EFOC. There's much more, but these are more or less the main points. In actuality, KE and speed have next to nothing to do with penetration, with momentum being the only, if any, calculation that could help. 

Now the proof! 

If you look at alot of the game taken with traditional gear, you'll see very low KE numbers. In his studies on Asiatic Buffulo, he got alot more penetration on big mature bulls with low (>40#) KE by using well designed arrows. In turn, look at the elephants taken. Howard Hill killed 3 elephants with a longbow that was shooting quite slowly, but had a long narrow arrow head on a heavy 1700 gr arrow! Likewise, look at some of the elephants killed today with compounds: heavy arrows. Likewise, Ashby did a test on just HOW IMPORTANT arrows were using lower weight (40# and 54#) and really heavy bows (70# and 82#). He was able to get more penetration with the lighter bows by using well designed, heavy arrows than he was with the heavier bows using poorly designed arrows! Other archers have been able to conduct their opwn tests, using "Ashby style" braodheads and weaker traditional bows (and slow to boot at only 140 fps) to break the shoulder and leg of freshly killed white tail (as an experiment). At the same time, for anyone wishing to leaving a big trailing hole the simple two balde fixed broadhead with single bevel will get "caught" up in the skin and twist and then slive open a much larger whole than otherwise- an actual hole, not slits.

KE looks geat on paper because that's what compounds do- produce buckets of KE. But you're not killing with a bullet here, you're killing with an arrow!


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## archer4life86

that's exactly what i was trying to get across. just not presented so well as you. so bravo to you. but again i was saying that in laymen's terms so everybody could understand it. you could have the most efficient, quality arrow in the world that wouldn't penetrate anything without enough KE. and isn't KE directly proportional to draw weight?


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## kegan

KE is derived from arrow speed and arrow weight, with speed having more of an impact on final numbers than arrow weight. Momentum is derived from speed and arrow weight. Nowhere does bow weight have any impact on the numbers. Likewise, KE actually means very little. You can take the most efficient arrow in the world with miserably low KE and still kill big game animals. On the other hand, you can have LOTS of KE but because the arrow explodes on a rib or scapula or is too light to carry through the animal.

So, to sum up:

Arrow design and mass= very important
Bow weight and KE= important, but nowhere *near* as important as arrow weight, design, and broadhead selection

For Ashby's findings, there are many on www.alaskabowhunting.com.


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## muzzyhunter17

kegan said:


> KE is derived from arrow speed and arrow weight, with speed having more of an impact on final numbers than arrow weight. Momentum is derived from speed and arrow weight. Nowhere does bow weight have any impact on the numbers. Likewise, KE actually means very little. You can take the most efficient arrow in the world with miserably low KE and still kill big game animals. On the other hand, you can have LOTS of KE but because the arrow explodes on a rib or scapula or is too light to carry through the animal.
> 
> So, to sum up:
> 
> Arrow design and mass= very important
> Bow weight and KE= important, but nowhere *near* as important as arrow weight, design, and broadhead selection
> 
> For Ashby's findings, there are many on www.alaskabowhunting.com.




Right on!


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## bowhunter1992

Muzzy makes a very strong and sharp broadhead i shot them for 3 years but im going to make a switch bc the blood trails are a little thin and i want something that has a bigger cutting diameter


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## bdwhitetalhunt

rage everytime big hole and quik recovery


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## kegan

Hole size doesn't matter if there isn't an exit wound, so you're best bet is to go with the safest bet... which also happens to give a pretty big hole.

Just sayin':wink:


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## PA3-DArcher4

oooh this remindes me: has anyone ever seen that commercial where the cavmen shoot a terridactul or some bird with a longbow and he asks him wht broadhead he use and he says "Rage"


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## Ignition kid

PA3-DArcher4 said:


> oooh this remindes me: has anyone ever seen that commercial where the cavmen shoot a terridactul or some bird with a longbow and he asks him wht broadhead he use and he says "Rage"


Yeah, that was stupid but somewhat funny, I'm wanting to try out the new NAP Bloodrunner 2, a 2 blade broodrunner that has a 2 1/16" cutting diameter but as of now i ain't getting any since i'm saving up for a Z7 and i allready have the 3 blade bloodrunners which have awesome penetration and huge holes and i especially like that it has the trocar (Muzzy) style tip to it.


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## Ignition kid

x-force hunter said:


> I was using the 100 which has a 1 1/8" cutting diameter. I'm going to get some MX-3s for this year.


I have those MX-3's along with the bloodrunners and the mx-3 is an awesome broadhead, a little extra cut with a shorter profile, I shot a hog with one @ about 25 yards and i jerked up when I shot and my arrow passed-through its spine and then I finished him off with a brisket shot and the broadheads were not messed up, no chipped or bent blades and barely any scratches on the ferrule.


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## Ignition kid

The reason that people have good and bad experiences with rages is because of one to two things. The first thing is that some people that shoot the regular 2 or 3 blade rages don't have enough KE to shove a 2" broadhead far into an animal and need to shoot the 40 kE ones or not even shoot expandables yet until they get more KE. The second reason is because the Rages with my experience of testing them on fruits is that there are many possibilities of if the blades open the way they should or if the blades don't open or if they are at a 90 degrees angle. I shot a regular rage two blade into a huge fruit of some sort about 10 different times, the majority of the times it didn't open or it would open but the slip-cam part of it would go to a 90 degrees angle and stay out in the way causing the blades themselves to be open to a 90 degrees angle which might be the cause of some bowhunters pulling 60-70# having alot of KE and not penetrating the animal good enough. Although that was the case of my testing they also do god in some scenarios, my dad has shot hogs with the rage and left holes in them that you could put 3 fingers or more in the entrance and exit holes, but as for me i won't shoot rages since there are many possibilities of what they may do. As for the NAP Bloodrunner, I shoot them at hogs and deer and they always open, entrance and exit (keep in mind I said thet actually pass-thorugh). They also put huge holes and penetrate well and are tough in my experiences of testing and arrowing a hog with one and they are very sharp out of the package and keep a sharp edge. The NAP Bloodrunners haven't not opened on me yet and have always opened every shot and i plan on continuing to shoot these broadheads on der, turkeys, and hogs. As for elk and game of its size, i won't since on an animal of its size and toughness I would much rather shoot a fixed blade broadhead like MUzzys so I can get the most penetration possible but for deer and game of its size It doesn't take all the KE you can get to have great penetration especially since I pull back 60 plus pounds and shoot heavy arrows and hogs, deer, and animals of their size aren't near as big as an elk or any animal of its size. Well, that's my large amount of 2 cents!:teeth:


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## x-force hunter

This long range dispute that arose made me think. Does anybody want to have a long distance shooting challenge thread?


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## kegan

x-force hunter said:


> This long range dispute that arose made me think. Does anybody want to have a long distance shooting challenge thread?


I'll give it a shot: but only after all this snow is gone! 

God I hate snow


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## N7709K

Waknstak6 said:


> *So why would ou bother with something you know to have issues in less than perfect conditions?*
> 
> 
> One must always, no matter the curcumstances, wait wait wait for that broadside to quartering away shot, and aviod the areas that may give them trouble( shoulder, guts), no matter there equipment. To each his own, as for me, im doin my pokin with a ST mag.


Only true with bows and a setup that it not 100% tuned, sighted in, and not know inside and out by the shooter. 





Ignition kid said:


> I shoot MX-3's and they aren't cheap quality, they don't cost alot and they are reliable and get the job done in a good way. they also fly incredible and are very hard hitting, if you bend the main blade on a phantom then the broadhead is useless unless you can bend the blade back, and the mx-3 if anything other than the ferrule cracks or anything, you can buy replacemet blades for 6 broadheads for $15-$16 and you can buy the trocar tips and i have never had a ferrule break on me and usually I can resharpen the blades and put them back in my quiver.


The blades on muzzy's aren't very tough. They get the job done, but after sighting in and tuning I don't like to have to buy more blades when I can sharpen them.



browningRAGE said:


> I use Rage 2-Blade. Personally I think they are the best out their. My friend hit a doe at about 45 yards. She went about 30 yards and collapsed. The only reason Rage's don't penetrate is when you don't have enought kinetic energy behind it. I pull 68# and they work great!


KE only means so much, as Kegan has been saying the whole time. I can get the same KE with a light arrow and a heavy arrow out of my setup. The heavy arrow will out penetrate the light one any day, any shot, any conditions. 

Also broadheads need to be sharp for KE to do any good



kegan said:


> Exactly. It's just a matter of getting everythign reacting the way it should be, which comes down to how well you can do it. There are archers who can bareshaft out to 100 yards with _recurves_ shooting with _fingers_. I've personally heard one too many stories about people switching to mechanicals because they simply "couldn't get their arrows tuned", both compound and traditional shooters.
> 
> Phooey on that I say.


I do have to say that most of the time you can get BH's to tune, but there are the cases where you can't due to arrow spine. With arrows running $150 a dozen, people will rather get mechanical than a whole dozen new arrows.

Here's one for you. My new target bow tunes perfect through paper at 3yds, 5yds, 7yds, 20yds. When I go and shoot it shoots all over the place. Checked the nock height, timing, everything and its in tune. 





kegan said:


> KE looks geat on paper because that's what compounds do- produce buckets of KE. But you're not killing with a bullet here, you're killing with an arrow!


Bullets kill very different than arrows, so you are right in not comparing them



kegan said:


> KE is derived from arrow speed and arrow weight, with speed having more of an impact on final numbers than arrow weight. Momentum is derived from speed and arrow weight. Nowhere does bow weight have any impact on the numbers. Likewise, KE actually means very little. You can take the most efficient arrow in the world with miserably low KE and still kill big game animals. On the other hand, you can have LOTS of KE but because the arrow explodes on a rib or scapula or is too light to carry through the animal.
> )


The best arrow will have optimal KE. KE stays about the same with light arrows at higher speed to heavy arrow at a slow speed. At this point you have to take FOC, momentum, and all other factors in to account when comparing light to heavy.


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## radpuppy

*KE vs Monmentum*

you know what I think hunters hunting north american game deer, elk, hogs, turkeys just need to shoot well tuned bows and be able to hit where they are aiming hopfully in the kill area and these worries are non-existent. because the ribs on these animals aren't that tough.If you are not accurate with the arrow set up it dont matter if it had 300 pounds of Ke or momentum.:mg::smile:


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## x-force hunter

Like was said before it is the arrow weight and the BH style that makes a big difference. A good fixed blade on a 400 grain arrow is capable of taking every animal in North America if it has enough energy behind it. I'm pretty sure that its been mentioned before, but the rages design only works against it in terms of penetration. Also as has been said before a 2" cut is not necesary. I have no problems with mechanicals as i haven't used them on game but unless you have enough energy plus some more you shouldn't be using some of the mechanicals out there and I am planning on testing out the meetseekers and bloodrunners this season but I know that I have more than enough energy to put that arrow and broadhead through regardless of angle or bone.


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## x-force hunter

kegan said:


> I'll give it a shot: but only after all this snow is gone!
> 
> God I hate snow


I don't have a problem with the snow until it has been around for a couple of months then I just want it gone but we just had a huge rainstorm and all our snow is gone but it's been replaced with lots of water. Right now my 40-60 yard targets are in the water. I can't wait ot see the 3D range at my club tomorrow.


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## kegan

N7709K- $150 for arrows? YOUCH!!! What arrows are you refering to there? St Axis are $100 for a dozen shafts, which is pricey, but you can get a dozen Beman ICS Bowhunter shafts for $50. Which is pretty pricey, but considering expandables can be as much as $36 for 3?

In the end, that's still just a matter of NOT TUNING, and entirely the archer's fault.

Again, the whole "optimal KE" thing is a lost cause. You can sacrifice alot of KE to get a really heavy arrow for something really big, like Buffulo (actual buffulo, not American bison), and still take out both lungs with only 35# of KE. 

Also, look up Ashby's tests and how deep his latest arrows penetrate. The go on to alaskabowhunting.com and look at the penetration _with compounds_ using the same arrows on the buffulo. In some cases, the compounds had less penetration, and few if any shown had more- but they sure did have more KE!

That being said: Radpuppy is right. Except for moose and elk, most game NA hunters are going after doesn't require all that worry. But it doesn't change the fact that a number of game animals are wounded and lsot due to faulty equipment CHOICES. It's all on the archer. We owe it to the game we pursue to use the best we can, and that means a moderately heavy arrow (with today's super fast compounds that means 400-500 gr), a cut on contact DURABLE broadhead. Heck, even three blades like the Montec are better choices than broadheads that haven't held up their end of the bargain for hunters in the past.

X-Force Hunter- My range for long distance shots is a gas line, so it funnels the wind and snow and I can't even shoot there- and I certainly don't want to throw away my arrows in these snow drifts:lol:!


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## N7709K

My fmj's are $129 a doz for shafts, then fletching, wraps(don't need em, but I use them) comes to a little over $160. If I add lighted nocks and broadheads it gets more spendy


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## corpralbarn

heh heh I pay $45 setup for 6 Gold tips. im shooting NAP scorpion expandibles. they are made to open with low KE bows.


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## muzzyhunter17

N7709K said:


> My fmj's are $129 a doz for shafts, then fletching, wraps(don't need em, but I use them) comes to a little over $160. If I add lighted nocks and broadheads it gets more spendy


Jesus, I shoot FMJ's and only cost me about 80 bucks a dozen....Man I thought they were expensive here!


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## N7709K

I can get them cheaper now, but last time I bought them it was that price


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## deerburner

young hunter said:


> im in the same predicament as you and after watching this video im deffinetly not going to be shooting rage. who care if they make a 2 inch cut if they cant punch through a shoulder blade.
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aZRzBYuBIc4


ok, now did u notice when he shot the rage, he didnt show the bow. he could have had a whole differant bow with a whole lot less KE. soo, i will post a video of rage vs. g5 montec with me showing the bow both times. just to eliminate any doubt that rage will penetrate a shoulder, and if you are a decent shot, you shouldnt hit the shoulder anyway, so it shouldnt matter. ive lost deer with the g5's. it was a good shot. the hole plugged up.


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## deerburner

ok, i did the test, the rages actually did penetrate farther, the blades were intact, but it might be a while before i get the video up


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## deerburner

ok, and to clear things up,im not doubting that this guy knows what hes doin or somethin, im just gonna post my results


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## kegan

No offense, but there have been ALOT more people who have had Rage FAIL on bone hits. Now I'm NOT saying that you didn't shoot through a shoulder, but it needs to be kept in mind that you are the EXCEPTION, not the rule. 

Likewise, what do you mean the "hole plugged up"? 

It's our responsibility as hunters to use the most lethal and effective gear possible. We're not killing to survive, we're doing this for sport. So if you're out there with gear that you _think_ is superior while knowing the whole time that not just a few, but MANY others have had failures with that same gear? Frankly that's selfish and arrogant. If we ever want hunting to be respected again, we ALL need to stop screwing around with things that look good on paper but could prove ineffective and sometimes cruel in practice, be that shooting gear that's not capable or beyond our own capabilities- it's up to each of us to make our sport HONORABLE.


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## Mach12

i think of them muzzy would be my choice im not much of a mechanical fan


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## Bucksnort 33

iv heard alot about rage not muzzy and my dad uses a NAP Spitfire :shade:


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## muzzyman1212

*I have shot deer with both*

This is my opinion shoot what ever broadhead you want, me personally has gotten just as good of penetration with rage as i do with muzzy but i prefer rage, cause i have never had to track a deer with them, but both are great broadheads but if you wanna stick with fixed blade and just dont wanna shoot muzzys then try slick tricks


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## Big Hunter1

get you some super sonic they got great pentration they fly just like a broadhead i switched to them about 3 years ago and every deer i have hit since then hasnt went more than 20,30 yards you should get you a pack


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## Big Hunter1

kegan said:


> No offense, but there have been ALOT more people who have had Rage FAIL on bone hits. Now I'm NOT saying that you didn't shoot through a shoulder, but it needs to be kept in mind that you are the EXCEPTION, not the rule.
> 
> Likewise, what do you mean the "hole plugged up"?
> 
> It's our responsibility as hunters to use the most lethal and effective gear possible. We're not killing to survive, we're doing this for sport. So if you're out there with gear that you _think_ is superior while knowing the whole time that not just a few, but MANY others have had failures with that same gear? Frankly that's selfish and arrogant. If we ever want hunting to be respected again, we ALL need to stop screwing around with things that look good on paper but could prove ineffective and sometimes cruel in practice, be that shooting gear that's not capable or beyond our own capabilities- it's up to each of us to make our sport HONORABLE.


you nailed hear buddy this says it all


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## hoythunter2009

young hunter said:


> im in the same predicament as you and after watching this video im deffinetly not going to be shooting rage. who care if they make a 2 inch cut if they cant punch through a shoulder blade.
> QUOTE]
> 
> 
> 
> the rage should be compaired to another expandible of course a fixed blade is going to do better then a mechanical one has moving parts the other doesnt now if the rage was compaired to the g5 tekan that would be a different story and a better comparison


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## muzzyman1212

i agree with hoythunter you just cant compare a fixed blade to a mecanicial if you wanna compare muzzy to something you should compare them to slick tricks or thunderheads or something like that


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## Matt0034

personally with almost any bow and broadhead combination i dont think any arrow is gonna penetrate at all into a shoulder if hit directly. it may deflect some and not go into the deers lungs or heart and the deer will be wounded by survive. any broadhead used today if hit BEHIND the shoulder will take out a deer. some may leave larger blood trails such as the rage. if your a sceptic of them check out the rage videos on there website, insane blood trails with proper shots. i know nobody's perfect and we all hit the wrong spots every once and awhile but thats bow hunting and your gonna have those situations. personally i use rage with no problems but truly its all about personal preference


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## parkerd

LittleBucker said:


> why shoot rages my dad shot rages this year and did not open and last year the stupid thing broke muzzy know da
> i do not shoot muzzys but i still think that muzzys is buter i shoot amiracan brod heads and i am 10 and my draw weght is only 35 and they went right therw the shoulder please give me a report on my brodheads
> p.s. muzzy!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


 You my friend need some spelling help ukey:


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## kegan

Matt0034 said:


> personally with almost any bow and broadhead combination i dont think any arrow is gonna penetrate at all into a shoulder if hit directly. it may deflect some and not go into the deers lungs or heart and the deer will be wounded by survive. any broadhead used today if hit BEHIND the shoulder will take out a deer. some may leave larger blood trails such as the rage. if your a sceptic of them check out the rage videos on there website, insane blood trails with proper shots. i know nobody's perfect and we all hit the wrong spots every once and awhile but thats bow hunting and your gonna have those situations. personally i use rage with no problems but truly its all about personal preference


Now that's just wrong. It's not impossible to shoot through the shoulder, and as a matter of fact can be done easily depending on your set up. The things to remember are that the broadhead needs to be designed properly for your arrow weight, draw weight, and arrow speed. There are traditional shooters who are shooting through the shoulders with realitvely light set ups because they use extremely sharp cut on contact fixed blades. Likewise, perfect tune is far more important than speed or arrow weight alone. I find it rediculous that so many folks shooting compounds that are achieving unbelievable arrow speeds will make comments like that when traditional shooters are punching and cutting through shoulders. 

I personally did some testing on a deer my brother had just killed last year. I tried several bows and used the same arrow- a 600 gr. STOS tipped carbon. The lightest was a hybrid bow drawn to 45# at 25-26" and even it was able to shoot through the shoulder on the young buck, and come out through the opposite side. You mean to tell me that a compound bow shooting a 400 or so grain arrow with a fixed blade can't do the same? Hog wash. There are just too many people who over look the history of bow killed animals in favor of what they read or see on TV these days. Too many broadheads that are too complicated and not enough solid shooting gear. Even loaded with heavier arrows in the 400 to 500 grain range many of the bows being shot today can easily achieve speeds of 260-280 fps, and will probably be dead silent with them.


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## crbanta

in my opinion really its hard to even compare a fixed to a mechanical they both have pors and cons sometimes the even out sometimes they dont and no matter what you are told on AT probly 80% of the reveiws are actually base on PERSONAL prefrence


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## syver

*Muzzy rock solid*

All the mechanicals have issues, the muzzy is so tried and true its not adviseable that you change. Just make sure all your
practice is with your broadheads on, they shoot alot diff than field points. You'll eat up a 75 dollar target every year but youll get dead on results when hunting. Best penetration of any broadhead ( muzzy)


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## Buckmaster18

rage for sure 
My uncle killed a giant buck with the rage extreme at 40 yards. The buck score 200 5/8. My uncle's arrow went straight through the shoulder of the 250 lb buck. I just shot my first deer with a bow last night. I was using the rage hypodermic with my diamond sb-1 on 61 lbs. Deer ran less than 100 yards and was down. insane blood trail also.
Muzzy makes a good broadhead just can get them to shoot like my field tips. 
Therefor I would go with the rage.


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## Buckmaster18

One broadhead the rage makes that I suggest not to go with though is the rage 3 blade. My dad used the rage 3's for 2 years but never again. he shot the same 21 point buck my uncle did but had his bow torked a little and the arrow went in at an angle and deer ran off with his arrow. 3 says later my uncle sent the rage 2's through is shoulder. Then the next year my dad thought the shot was on him and took the rage 3's again. Poor results- he shot a big 8 with 1-2 inch penetration and the deer ran of with his arrow. the next bow season come in his friend shot it and my dad's rage 3 was in him 1-2 inches. last but not least he shot a doe and luckily killed her when he shot her the 2nd time with once again very minimal penetration.


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## comprar

I was using the 100 which has a 1 1/8" cutting diameter.


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