# Sun/Shade causing shots left & right?



## cgchris99 (Apr 10, 2003)

I had a situation last week. We shot a field course with 90% of the shots in the shade. We came up to the 40 yard target and the sun was coming from the right and was really difficult to see through the peep. Shots seemed to land left.

How does sun direction change the impact point? FYI, 6x scope with a #2 clarifier peep.

Thanks for any info.


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## Sasquech (Dec 15, 2014)

Generally it will be more slope and footing but lighting can have an effect always glass the target and adjust for the grouping it will tell you a lot about the shot. But in short lighting does have an effect


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## montigre (Oct 13, 2008)

When using any form of rear sight (such as a peep in archery or scope with rifles), the shooter is likely to perceive the target in a different manner (larger or smaller, and/or in a different place) depending on the position of the sun and its intensity. The if the light getting to your eye through the peep is coming from the right, the shooter is more prone to shoot left of the intended point of impact, if coming from directly in front or is very bright, the poi will be lower on target and vise versa if coming from behind or in lower lighting, causing the shooter to hit high. This is caused by the principle of light diffraction--causing the light waves bend around corners and interfere with one another as they travel through the small holes of our sights. These effects are magnified as the distance to the target increases. 

With practice shooting in these conditions, you learn how much you need to compensate for the varying light conditions (to give your sight a couple of clicks to the right/left etc).... Some shooting glasses have specialized lens coatings that limit the amount of perceived diffraction and allow for more accurate aiming in difficult or changeable lighting situations.

The magnification of your scope will have little bearing on this, but the size of your aperture opening can affect it greatly.


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## cgchris99 (Apr 10, 2003)

Thanks for the info


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## bigHUN (Feb 5, 2006)

montigre said:


> When using any form of rear sight (such as a peep in archery or scope with rifles), the shooter is likely to perceive the target in a different manner (larger or smaller, and/or in a different place) depending on the position of the sun and its intensity. The if the light getting to your eye through the peep is coming from the right, the shooter is more prone to shoot left of the intended point of impact, if coming from directly in front or is very bright, the poi will be lower on target and vise versa if coming from behind or in lower lighting, causing the shooter to hit high. This is caused by the principle of light diffraction--causing the light waves bend around corners and interfere with one another as they travel through the small holes of our sights. These effects are magnified as the distance to the target increases.
> 
> With practice shooting in these conditions, you learn how much you need to compensate for the varying light conditions (to give your sight a couple of clicks to the right/left etc).... Some shooting glasses have specialized lens coatings that limit the amount of perceived diffraction and allow for more accurate aiming in difficult or changeable lighting situations.
> 
> The magnification of your scope will have little bearing on this, but the size of your aperture opening can affect it greatly.


this!
you need a good bino or a good monocular so you can see where your first arrow hits...
I had 2-3 Field -whole day events- this year where I had to move 6-7 clicks to the right along the day, the long shots were awfully off to the Left especially in the morning hours and moved to the right about and past noon...
I am using a 29mm scope and one of the smallest peeps (blank hole, no lens inside) what centers well inside the scope housing, so I am excluding any shade (below or either L or R edge on perimeter) to do me this error


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## caspian (Jan 13, 2009)

cgchris99 said:


> We came up to the 40 yard target and the sun was coming from the right and was really difficult to see through the peep. Shots seemed to land left.


I get the same thing at my indoor club - in the late afternoon the sun shines through the windows past the shooting line and changes my lateral impact point. in my case more light = impact point to right, but it's obviously due to the way I am seeing the peep and the scope.


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## snowshovler (Oct 15, 2011)

The old adage withe shooting a rifle with peep sights is "lights up, sights up" or "move the sight to the sun." If you zero in the shade or overcast the sights will be off a bit when you are in the sun. The effect is when the target is in the sun and you are in the shade. Put both in the sun and the effect is exaggerated. The sun angle effect is pretty small so good on you for being consistent enough to notice.


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## ron w (Jan 5, 2013)

shadowing can reduce the perceived size of the peep one side of the orifice or the other, depending on which way the sun comes from. what that does is make you center the focus through the peep to one side or the other because the peep actually looks smaller than it is. the result can be shots that are just slight off right or left.
I believe this is a product of the fact that the shorter bows of today keep the peep farther from the eye and that will cause this optical illusion. 
the remedy is hard to apply, because it involves a larger peep orifice, and that has it's own issues of potentially less accurate centering and target clarity vs. being able to focus through a smaller peep, because of it's distance from the eye.
another cause may be from lower quality lenses in either the peep or the scope. lower quality lenses have a tendency to change the alignment between the outer and the inner surface of the lens and that misalignment will vary by the amount and direction the light comes from....... basically, it is exactly why good optics are as expensive as they are.


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## ILOVE3D (Feb 4, 2009)

snowshovler said:


> The old adage withe shooting a rifle with peep sights is "lights up, sights up" or "move the sight to the sun." If you zero in the shade or overcast the sights will be off a bit when you are in the sun. The effect is when the target is in the sun and you are in the shade. Put both in the sun and the effect is exaggerated. The sun angle effect is pretty small so good on you for being consistent enough to notice.


I had never heard of the "lights up, sights up" or "move to the sun" but similarly I noticed this at my old house when practicing in the morning with sun at my left my shots tend to be left of center but it was worse in the afternoon or early evening when it was at my right and my shots seemed to be more to the right. I noticed Tim Gillingham had a piece of shrink tubing on his peep that extended out about 3/8" towards the front as to cut down the glare that would normally be on the inside of my peep and this seemed to clear quite a bit of the left/right drifting arrows I would get during certain light conditions.


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## ron w (Jan 5, 2013)

think about that,...sun to the right, shadowing on the right side of the peep orifice or lens (if clarifier/verifier), makes the peep appear smaller, so you center in the good, unshaded area, which is biased to the left and that makes the shot biased to the left. at longer distances, it would show just the same as not being centered in your peep. as the sun moves east to west the shading follows and the bias reverses. 
short bows with long peep focal distance makes the situation worse as the peep gets smaller and is harder to focus through, so the desire to see where the shading isn't, gets stronger.


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

First, I doubt if I'd ever use a 6X lens and a clarifier is just asking for problems. There is the lens should be square to you or distortion is a real possibility. The lens is coated. Lose the coating and you've got problems, like glare or reflections. The peep must be square/straight. Any angularity and you'll have distortion. 
Sun is a SOB for everybody and a sun shade can be wonderful. Lancaster has them or make your own. I've used a painted plastic water bottle, cut it so it clamps on my scope housing, weighs virtually nothing. I used a Velcro kit to attach the bottle. For the peep, you can add shrink tubing. The tubing can extend either way or both ways as you like.


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## caspian (Jan 13, 2009)

some of use need to use clarifiers due to eyesight concerns, so dealing with it is necessary. the leading tube extension looks like it might help, although it makes peep indexing more critical.


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

Part of the tube extension purpose is to show that the peep/clarifier is off.....Okay, angularity....


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

New, peepntom. Said now available at Lancaster. Put up on Facebook by Tim Gillingham, Levi Morgan is using one, Morgan noting it eliminating glare. 3/16" clarifier available. Inventor, Tom Gomez. Tom is a pretty good shooter.


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## montigre (Oct 13, 2008)

While this is a cutesy little gadget that will make it easier for those who feel a need to shoot with hoods or full shrouds on their peeps, eliminating glare is not going to influence the level of light diffraction one perceives through the peep while shooting. The hole is still there (just now in a tunnel) and the light is going to have to bend around the opening to enter that hole and your eye... :wink:


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

Found a pic of Tim and his long tube peep. Not a close up, but....... Late shoot off? Is getting dark.


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## montigre (Oct 13, 2008)

montigre said:


> At the same time, the direction of the light entering the peep is now severely restricted. I can see there being a benefit to this.
> 
> Now where's my heat shrink tubing kit?


Not my words....nor my intent.


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## Mahly (Dec 18, 2002)

montigre said:


> Not my words....nor my intent.


fixed


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## Mahly (Dec 18, 2002)

montigre said:


> While this is a cutesy little gadget that will make it easier for those who feel a need to shoot with hoods or full shrouds on their peeps, eliminating glare is not going to influence the level of light diffraction one perceives through the peep while shooting. The hole is still there (just now in a tunnel) and the light is going to have to bend around the opening to enter that hole and your eye... :wink:


At the same time, the direction of the light entering the peep is now severely restricted. I can see there being a benefit to this.

Now where's my heat shrink tubing kit?


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## montigre (Oct 13, 2008)

Thanks....


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## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

To me this is just one little thing that a person has to learn how to deal with and not suffer funny hitting arrows that don't make any sense because you had a smooth shot and it just hit somewhere crappy.

For example in my new back yard I have a few level spots where I like to stand but most of the yard is sloping and uneven and there are a couple spots where when I stand there and shoot the arrows all hit about 1.5 inches left and it isn't the light because I just shot from the even area with the same light conditions. 

I will say that I believe that poorly set 3rd axis really hurts when there is glare and makes things way worse with respect to point of impact because the lens isn't perfectly square to the target and at a angle and the light is hitting from the side more than likely and making a weird look. If you are using a clarifier and the peep is slightly crooked and the 3rd axis is off a little it all just adds to the mix. I don't have proof or anything just a feeling that you need to have the lens and the peep perfectly straight and that it will make for a better setup.


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## ron w (Jan 5, 2013)

it's all interactive,.....you stand on level ground, your body acts differently and reacts to the shot differently, than when standing on un-level ground.


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## Rabbit57 (Jun 15, 2012)

SonnyThomas.

Where do you attach the bottle? Front? Back? Both on the scope?



SonnyThomas said:


> First, I doubt if I'd ever use a 6X lens and a clarifier is just asking for problems. There is the lens should be square to you or distortion is a real possibility. The lens is coated. Lose the coating and you've got problems, like glare or reflections. The peep must be square/straight. Any angularity and you'll have distortion.
> Sun is a SOB for everybody and a sun shade can be wonderful. Lancaster has them or make your own. I've used a painted plastic water bottle, cut it so it clamps on my scope housing, weighs virtually nothing. I used a Velcro kit to attach the bottle. For the peep, you can add shrink tubing. The tubing can extend either way or both ways as you like.


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

Well....Cut the top and bottom off a plastic water or pop bottle (I used a pop can once).You have a tube. Cut a section length wise X amount wide from the bottle. Looking from one end to the other of the hacked bottle you then have a over size C. If need be, and probably will be needed, cut a small relief for the scope rod or attachment. Snap bottle or can over the scope. Need some tension squeeze bottle or can length wise.
Okay, this is for need to have, one shot need and it's going rattle and fall off. I don't care so long as I can get my shot off. 
You can customize one for your scope and use Velcro to hold more securely. 

Fast and furious while replying here; Pop can to the rescue....


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## Rabbit57 (Jun 15, 2012)

Hey Sonny T. I just made this from a large prescription bottle this morning. I just squeezes over the Falcon lens ring snug enough where after sooting this afternoon, no sound and it didn't fall off.

Hopefully problem solved with my 6X and 2 clarifier.
View attachment 2804378
View attachment 2804386


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

Yep, customized to fit. :thumbs_up Look in the Lancaster catalog. The one they have covers the upper half of the scope housing, long to extend in front and back.


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## montigre (Oct 13, 2008)

I use old laminated business cares velcroed to the top of my scope to act as a sun shade when needed to cut glare--no need to get fancy with this. 

However, while these methods are great for cutting the glare, they do nothing to alter the fact that the light waves are being bent around the edges of the peep before entering your eye. The effects of the sun "pushing" or "pulling" your bow will remain the same with or without the use of a shade or tube.


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