# So you think paper tuning works??



## Jabwa (Dec 10, 2004)

I just did the final finish on my UT Cam.5. First paper tune to bullethole; then bareshaft at 10 yards (I got the bareshaft to hit the fletched); then shoot at a vertical line at 5 ft, 5 yds, 10 yds, 20 yds (moved rest in and out slightly until arrows hit the line at all distances); and last but not least, shot outside at 20 yds and 40 yds using only my 20 yard pin at a vertical line.

Well, I was able to consistently hit the X on the proper size field target at 20 yds, so I shot several groups at 40 yds. My groups fit consistently within a 2" circle. On one group I had 3 arrows touching each other and one 1/2" above the other 3!! For me this is fabulous, especially with pins!

Okay, so I went down in the basement to see how the paper tune looked. Ready for a shock? 2" left tear!! For me this indicates a stiff arrow (for some reason I am the reverse of the book). Okay, so I'm using a shaft with a spine of 0.520 cut at 28" nock groove to base of the 65 gr point and AA says it's fine at a draw length of 29.25" and the bow set on 57#.

Just thought I'd post these results. :smile:


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## Hunter440 (Jan 25, 2003)

Jabwa said:


> I just did the final finish on my UT Cam.5. First paper tune to bullethole; then bareshaft at 10 yards (I got the bareshaft to hit the fletched); then shoot at a vertical line at 5 ft, 5 yds, 10 yds, 20 yds (moved rest in and out slightly until arrows hit the line at all distances); and last but not least, shot outside at 20 yds and 40 yds using only my 20 yard pin at a vertical line.
> 
> Well, I was able to consistently hit the X on the proper size field target at 20 yds, so I shot several groups at 40 yds. My groups fit consistently within a 2" circle. On one group I had 3 arrows touching each other and one 1/2" above the other 3!! For me this is fabulous, especially with pins!
> 
> ...



I have to ask one question----Do you think you could have shot the 2'' groups without the other work you did?
In other words had you simply paper tuned what would the groups be??

:smile:


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## Jabwa (Dec 10, 2004)

Very thoughtful question and very thought provoking. Thinking back to what changes I made after the first paper tune, I moved my rest (pro tuner) a number of clicks to the right to correct for the groups moving left as the distance increased. This achieved a consistent left-right grouping at all distances. No change to my nocking point was necessary. I just checked my sight level and it is leveled to the string (I keep the sight leveled during shooting). I shot on level ground so the 3rd axis does not come into play.

In answer to your question, possibly, but they would have been increasingly farther left as the distance increased. I have achieved a perfect paper tune on other bows in the past which didn't group well at all. Now I am going beyond paper tuning and it has been very successful to date.


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## silverback (Jan 20, 2005)

.520 too stiff?
I don't have AA, but I used the free easton program.
I put in everything, except I said 75 grain points insted of 65, because that is all it will allow.
Easton says you should be using a 400 spine.
I'm not sure what you mean that you are reverse of the book.
Isn't a left tear indicitive of a weak spine?

Have you tried stiffer arrows?

I have been shooting with underspined arrows too.
I could never get them to paper tune at all, but get great groups.


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## Jabwa (Dec 10, 2004)

For me a left tear indicates stiff. I have checked this using different spined arrows and as the spine gets stiffer, the tear goes more to the left. If you read Eastons arrow tuning manual it says for some individuals this is the case and I guess I am one.

Of course, I believe AA or Easton's charts are just a rough approximation of the correct spine needed for a particular bow/archer combination. I am going down right now to shoot a 0.400 arrow. Will let you know shortly.


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## Jabwa (Dec 10, 2004)

Okay, I couldn't find a 0.400 arrow of the same diameter, so I just used one of my 0.520's with a 90 gr point rather than a 65 gr. This should have made the arrow weaker, right? Well, I got a straight up 1" tear and I'll bet from previous experience that if I put in a 100 gr point the tear would move to the right.


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## TexHunter (Dec 30, 2002)

Interesting, thanks. Been getting the same tear on one bow but groups great.


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## Jabwa (Dec 10, 2004)

Silverback:

I just downloaded the Easton program off their website and for my setup it listed a large number of shafts from 0.464 to 0.520, including my Redline 520's. I don't understand why you couldn't use 65 gr for point weight since the program I downloaded would take any point weight in 5 gr increments.


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## UltraTecArcher (May 20, 2004)

*Well, this might be of interest to you ....*

I am in a similar situation. I am using the Archery Program (TAP). I calibrated the sytem by keying in a tested arrow at a tested chrono speed, at a tested draw weight ect.....and I cam up with a significantly higher performance factor. The program is default with a performance factor 1.2137 for this bow, my calibration put it at a 1.3041. This makes a significant difference in the spine that the program calls for as well as the speed the bow produces. Once calibrated the system has accurately predicted the speed of every arrow that I have tested within 1 fps.

You must also ensure that you are using a setting of medium cam NOT Hard Cam. THis makes a difference on the programs.

Despite all of this information, when I last papertuned a nd went through almost the same exact set of procedures that you described, I ended up with the same results......great groups out to 40 yards, but a tear indicating a stiff reaction after the fact.....most would say go with the groups and forget it, but as a perfectionist, I have been forever in search of a solution to the delima. I have yet to find one. It would appear that as of this point we have a choice to go with the groups or the bullet holes......
I would love to find the answer here.

J


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## Jabwa (Dec 10, 2004)

Glad to find a comrade in this dilemma! The AA program does in fact allow you to enter a chronograph reading and arrow weight and it has successfully predicted speeds for me. (Note: this is, of course, only as accurate as the chronograph). Yes, I am using a "medium cam" setting on the Easton program. For the Archer's Advantage program you enter bow specs and chronograph data and it gives you the IBO speed, which I have found is quite close to what Hoyt gives for the UT's.

For me, I am going with my subsequent tests, not stopping with a paper tune. I have spent literally thousands of hours in the basement paper tuning bows and it has led me to nothing but frustration and doubt. It has allowed me to perfect my form, however! :smile: Lots of blank bale time!


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## Jabwa (Dec 10, 2004)

Since this bow is grouping so well, I wrote down all the pertinent measurements (i.e. brace, draw length, ATA, peak weight, etc.) and it was interesting to me that after the initial paper tune I moved the rest to the right. It now is exactly 25/32" out from the riser. This is EXACTLY where Jave says it should be!!!!


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## UltraTecArcher (May 20, 2004)

*I am with you....*

all of the hours and hours of fine tuning in search to a solution to our delima really works as a constant window into your form....and then end result is better form.

One might even say that paper tuning works better as a tool for practicing your form than a ftuning device.....

and yes....Javi is almost always on the spot with his advice. You learn quickly on this sight to filter the information based on who posted it.....Javi 
set the standard for good info and advice

J


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## silverback (Jan 20, 2005)

Maybe Easton has a newer version than I am using.
Mine is the 2004 version.


I was just trying to help.

I think a high tear is also an indication of a weak spine.

Are you shooting fingers or left handed?


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## silverback (Jan 20, 2005)

I just ran the 05 chaft selector,
58#, 28" arrow, 65 gn point
Hard cam
easton recommends a .400- .460 spine

If you are running the cam 1/2 as a medium cam then I get .460-.521

I don't know what the cam 1/2 is considered, but when I had an Xtec, it liked arrows on the stiff side.


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## Jabwa (Dec 10, 2004)

Silverback:

You did help! Now I have another shaft selector on my computer! Hoyt considers the cam.5 to be a medium, so my 0.520's are okay but on the weak side according to Easton. Since I am tuning for 3D I want to lean toward light, weak, and fast. 

I have heard the high tear as indicative of a weak arrow, and in this case perhaps it is (remember I added 25 gr of point weight and moved the tear from left to straight up), but I have also had a 2" high tear out of my indoor wheel bow set at 51 lbs using 2512's. To be honest, though, I think this was due to the high FOC (242 gr points) and 33" shafts. That bow shoots well also.


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## silverback (Jan 20, 2005)

If you are just using it for 3-d, then I would say a weak spine is fine.
Like I said, my underspined arrows fly better than my hunting arrows.
That means my center shot has to be way off.
So I use the stiffer arrow so I can push broadheads.

But if you're just using it for 3-d and getting good flight, then you're good.
I bet if you put a broadhead on, you would hit low right.
(Or, reverse for you would be low left).
If you get a chance, give that a try, I'd be interested in the results.

You might want to try lightspeed 400s 7.41 grains per inch). They are light and stiff.
I don't know what you are shooting, but the lightspeeds might actually be stiffer and lighter and only $60/doz.
My 29" 400 lightspeeds w/ all components and 100 gn head weigh 350 gns.
If you use lighter vanes and a 65 gn tip on a 28 " arrow, you would probably be around 295 grains.
That's 5.18 grains per pound.

Easton also has new A/C superslim 500s (8.5 grains per inch).
But I'm not sure they are on the market yet.


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## silverback (Jan 20, 2005)

There's also GT ultra light 400s at 7.4 grains per inch.
And ultra light 22s .300 spine and 7.3 grains per inch.

But they're about twice the price of lightspeeds.
And lightspeeds are very accurate arrows.


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## Smoke (Feb 4, 2003)

Jabwa,

If you set your sight level with the string wouldn't this cause your groups to move shift to one side at longer distances since the string is more to the left at the bottom of the bow?


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## PA.JAY (May 26, 2004)

very interesting thread !
i was under the impression after i paper tuned I would move my sight to were it needed to be ? right or wrong ?


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## bucknasty (Jun 18, 2004)

why spend time paper tuning? when you are done really tuning your bow to you what it did through paper won't matter anymore anyway. when my bow is tuned to me, i can use 3 or 4 different grips (hand placements) on it and my arrows still hit the same spot from 20-50 and group the same out to 80 yds. try that after paper tuning and see what happens. so, why do it? 
if you have a consistent anchor and release you can skip this step in the process and if you don't it won't help you anyway, except to show you that you don't.


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## Jabwa (Dec 10, 2004)

PA.Jay:

Correct. What I was referring to was the sight was dead on at 20 yards, but out at 40 yards I was grouping 6" to the left. If everything is level, the way to correct this is by moving the rest to the RIGHT- A VERY SMALL AMOUNT MAKES A BIG DIFFERENCE!


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## UltraTecArcher (May 20, 2004)

*Pajay*

Well, that is where many people quit, but it is my opinion that paper tuning is a nice tool to use inside or at the house to get pretty close, BUT.....ultimately bare shaft tuning and then walk-back tuning will get you better groups.

I always paper tune, then bare shaft tune out to 20 yards, and then walk back tune........this usually provides nice tight groups. 

As this post discusses, many of us find that when we are all finished and we go back to check the paper tune, it is no longer a bullet hole.

J


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## PA.JAY (May 26, 2004)

THANK YOU BOTH  REASON THIS THREAT interested me was I am shooting 22 holes BUT @ 35-40 I was to the left I think can't remember !
I brought them back in with my site . I have'nt moved up close yet. 
I got to paper tune then shoot 20 get sight dead on then move back if arrows start grouping to the left or right move rest ! got it !! 
thank you again !!


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## Bow-zo (Jul 18, 2003)

*No Paper!*

These two pics are of arrows shot from the same bow. Only thing changed was the sight setting to hit center.
Blue and green fletch (second pic) is a ACE 520 shot from 40yds.
The green and white (first pic) is a ACE 430 shot at 60yds.
The only paper these arrows see is target paper.
I do not paper tune due to reasons you guys have already covered.
I went through the same thing you are now several years ago.

I have stated this several times on this site before and you guys just keep backing it up.

Paper and bare shaft tuning "WERE" great tools "BACK in their day for finger shooters to pick shafts for their bow. Although finger shooters still use this method with much success.
Todays modern equipment does not need all those antiquated methods if you use a mechanical release.

Nock point and center shot is all that is needed and unless you are a finger shooter there are better ways to get there.
Modern shafts shot with a mechanical release flex up & down not side to side. Don't take my word, get Eastons slow motion video and prove it to yourself.
I have tuned many bows of every brand and I do not shoot any of them through paper. But if it makes you feel better (I do not think it does or i would not read post like the ones above) and it gives you a sense of confidence and "YOU THINK IT WILL HELP" then by all means Paper tune your hearts out.
Ask every Pro you meet from here on out how they paper and bare shaft tune.
........Dave!


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## Jabwa (Dec 10, 2004)

I have to respectfully disagree with regard to the up and down flexing only. Have you ever powdered your whole shaft? I have many times and what I see is movement of the arrow as the rest tracks through the powder- it moves from left to right and often describes an "S" curve.. For a right handed shooter it usually rides up on the left prong of the launcher and I believe it was Jimmy D that verified on a recent thread that this implied a correctly tuned bow. How can this be so if there is no left-right movement of the arrow?

The bad paper tears we see are probably not the result of arrow paradox (this is not true for arrows with a high FOC, since the nodes move forward and back of the arrow "wigwags") but due to the rear end of the arrow being out of line with the front- these bad paper tears are what we want to eliminate.


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## Jerry/NJ (Jan 17, 2003)

Bow-zo said:


> I have stated this several times on this site before and you guys just keep backing it up.
> 
> Paper and bare shaft tuning "WERE" great tools "BACK in their day for finger shooters to pick shafts for their bow. Although finger shooters still use this method with much success.
> Todays modern equipment does not need all those antiquated methods if you use a mechanical release.
> ...


Dave, et al, if you were to be shooting from a blind with mesh windows, is that the only method you would use? How do you know your arrow is coming off the bow perfectly straight to shoot thru mesh? 

I will differ here than most. If you gave me a bow and said it magically does not need to be tuned, I will start by paper tuning first as I always do and I enjoy it.  I paper tune with a bare shaft until I shoot a bullet hole back to 15 yards (as far as I can go indoors) and then go outside for my group tests, etc. and I very rarely find that I have to make any adjustments outside at distances to 40 yards. That is me and my style and it works for me. But I definitely want to know what that arrow is doing at 6" ffrom my bow as I shoot from a blind and to me it is of importance that arrow is as close to perfect as can be.......

Disclaimer: I am not nocking anyones style of tuning. I wish more people would do some kind of tuning !


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## Bow-zo (Jul 18, 2003)

*Yes!*

Hi Jerry, Glad to hear from you.
To answer your ?.. Yes! all I do is set center shot with a plumb string (all the way out to 80yds.
If my arrows hit the string (or nearly so) at all distances then the center shot has to be perfect.
I set the nock so the arrow is 90 degrees to the string to start and powder test for clearance. If the clearance is O.K. I go shoot groups @ 40 to 80 yds. and either move the nock up and down or limb tune (tiller tune to most) this moves the nock for me quick and easy.
When I am shooting the tightest groups I can @ 60+ yds. I know the arrow has to be coming off rather cleanly. I did in the past shoot a few thru paper just to see what they did and 99% of the time they made very small holes usually alittle tail high. (the way I like 'em) I do not even bother now. 
I would not hesitate to shoot thru mesh with a bow I never shot thru paper.
I know alot of you guys swear by the paper "BUT" I see so many new shooters try to paper tune and do nothing but get frustrated untill the fun is gone. These guys are trying to eliminate tears when they should be shooting groups and perfecting their form. Untill your form is as good as it can be paper tuning is more of a waste of time than watching the grass grow. In my opinion paper tuning is for "advanced" archers that know what effects their adjustment is going to make "before " they make it and their form is also "REPEATABLE"
If Paper tuning works for you and you get the desired result then who am I to tell you not to do it. Most of these guys think paper is the "do all end all" of bow tuning and I am here to say the desired results can be had much faster, easier & with alot more fun with no frustration what so ever.
Have you ever thought why you do not hear much from the Pro's and the old timers on this subject in these post. I would bet a hundred dollars to a dounut they have nothing too say because they do not paper tune. Or if they do it is very, very little.
I have seen so many guys shoot "A bullet hole" and then turn right around and shoot a 4" left tear without changing a thing. Then they start moving everything untill they shoot another bullet hole 6 hours later. (I know I been there.) I will say this again..Modern equipment with good quality accessories
rest, arrows ect. and shot with a mechanical release do not need hours spent on paper. Paper tuning is primarily for finger shooters that have all that side to side paradoxing going on and I will say this the above is only true if you are at least close to the correct spine for your setup and the charts will get you there. Spine is not as important as most think as long as you are close. If you error error on the stiff side.
O.K. O.K I will stop rambling, I just have spent alot of wasted time on Paper and like to share it. If you "like" to paper tune by all means do it. If all it does is frustrate you do not do it, you don't have to to shoot well.

Dave!


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## Jabwa (Dec 10, 2004)

Bow-zo:

Were both the 460's and 520's the same point weight and shaft length? Probably not, but they could be. I have had this happen at 20 yds with my indoor bow. The only difference was elevation due to differences in weight.


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## Jabwa (Dec 10, 2004)

Bow-zo:

Read your last post and I must say we are on the same page  (Get it?) I sort of agree about paper tuning and beginners- if they use it as a tool and don't obsess over it it can be helpful, however. Do you really think group tuning is for beginners? I don't think you do because it only works if you can shoot tight groups consistently. The problem is the beginner doesn't KNOW whether his poor shooting is him or the bow! My feeling is that a beginner should shoot for several months before he or she even begins to think about tuning. Good grief! I didn't even settle on a correct draw length for a couple of years! The trouble with most beginners is even when they begin to shoot tight groups, one day the groups will be 2" left, the next 2" right and they keep blaming the bow! They sure can wear out the adjustments on a sight


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## thndrr (Feb 8, 2004)

well, here's my 2 cents...... Paper tuning is a starting point, lets you know everything is coming out of the bow ok. Once you start group tuning, tear usually goes to heck. From what I know, most generally a right handed shooter will end up with a high left tear. No expert here, just my .02. Jim


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## Jerry/NJ (Jan 17, 2003)

Interesting reading and thoughts! As I read, I realized something on my end. I have a small shop area in my basement and when I work on someone's bow, I have them paper test it as I have everything right there and I usually have the bow very close (gettin old is good for something,lol) and I use the paper tune to check not only the bow but the shooters form, grip, etc. and until I read the replies I wasnt thinking about the other things I check for as I do it subconsciously. 
I think more importantly than how we each tune a bow is, I wish there were more people who would take the time to do it ! I see so many guys who dig a bow out a week or 2 before the season, dust off the arrows and shoot.  Freaks me out.....I just keep trying to educate as many as possible, the least I can do.  Good job fellas !


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## Jabwa (Dec 10, 2004)

Above all, archery is a journey. Too many beginners on here start by asking what the "best" bow, rest, arrow, release, etc. is. They get many answers from some very good, seasoned shooters and go out and buy $1200 worth of equipment. Then they can't figure out why they can't hit the gold at 20 yards! My advice would be to buy a relatively inexpensive rig and shoot, shoot, shoot, for at least 3 months. Try to develop some kind of repeatable form and be able to shoot a respectable group. Then begin to play with paper tuning, group shooting, and the other tuning methods. At the same time keep working on form (video cameras and mirrors work wonders here). Don't expect your bow to bullet hole at this point; after all, you can't hit the X every time either! Go back and forth over the ensuing years, buy a more expensive setup (although any camo colored compound today is very capable of killing a whitetail at 30 yards) tune the bow, tune your form. Along the way on this journey called archery, you will learn, and gradually improve. Does anyone think that "really old guy" Javelina knew as much as he does when he was 25? You guys just expect instant success, but archery ain't no video game!  

Got to quit- this is beginning to sound like a rant!!!


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## Bow-zo (Jul 18, 2003)

*ACE 430 and ACE 520 ?*

Hey Jabwa..how are ya?
The 430's have 100 gr. and the 520's have 90 I think. I built the 520's a few years ago. Both are 28" shafts shot at 55 lbs. 272 & 287 fps. 
You are right group or any kind of tuning is not really for beginners but it will give them plenty of practice to work on their form and see how their bow works. And it is more fun. The problem with working on your form while shooting paper is you get obsessed with trying to shoot a bullet hole and you forget about all the things that make up your form. You start changing your grip and anchor, releasing differant anything to get that elusive bullet hole.
Form "HAS" to be worked on all by it self with no distractions. Eyes closed so you can feel the shot. Over and over and over again..feel the shot. Best done on a blank bale no target @ 2or 3 yards.
Pick a shooting style and stick with it untill you can do it without thinking about any thing but the middle of the X. If your mind drift off to your release trigger or how you are gripping the bow or or any thing but the middle of the X 95 percent of the time you will miss. It has to be done subconsciously.
There are so many things that will effect a paper tear you could fill a book. 
Cam lean, nock travel, string oscillation from the release and many more that can not be tuned out by moving the rest or the nock. 
My Hooter Shooter really opened my eyes like nothing else. When you witness a bow shoot arrow after arrow onto the same hole from 40 yds.
And not just from a tuned bow. I can turn one limb all the way down, back the other all the way out, move the rest in or out 1/2" , nock point up 1/2" and all I have to do is move the sight to realign it to center and all the arrows will hit the same hole from 40 yds. WHY? Because the form is absolutely the same with every shot. Some day I will shoot it thru paper with all the settings jacked up like that. (I bet it bullet holes) Ha! Ha!

Jerry is right some guys do not do it at all and wonder why they can not hit the paper plate they hit last year. 
That is ok I guess. They are just not into it. After all some guys do not work on there own cars. LOL!

That is O.K. Jabwa "RANT ON" Ha! Ha! I love to shoot and as you can tell I love talking about shooting. I like so many others had to learn everything on my own. No coach, no Pro's to ask ? Than a few years ago I spent the $$ and attended the NFAA Shooter School. Boy did I learn alot. I started shooting 10 times better right away. I learned all the little things that where keeping me from reaching the next level in my shooting. And believe me none of them had anything to do with my bow other than my draw length was set to long. ( like every body else at first) By the way draw length is one of if not the most important thing to have good form and shoot well. Some guys shoot with the D/L several inches off. (very hard to shoot bullet holes this way even if all else is perfect). I went home and woked on my form and release. I started winning every local shoot I went to.
Even the coach at the school said not to get caught up in paper tuning.
He said it is for experts that know everything else is not at fault when they get a bad tear.
I heard Terry Ragsdale after winning Vegas for the 2nd or 3rd time shot his bow thru paper and got a 6" rip "Dang" if he had done that before Vegas he probably would not have gone.
Anyway guys enough is enough. I just hope i help someone new with some info I wish I had at the start.
Have fun guys..its just a game. Good shooting..Bow-Zo!


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## elkski (Feb 4, 2005)

*a couple additional thoughts*

MAke sure the arrows you tune with are straight!! And the best you have. Check them during the tune on a tester if in doubt..
The comment about form is so true and so required before you can get any meaning from a paper tune. Try getting on the paper and then shutting your eyes as you slowly punch off the shot for paper tune.


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## PA.JAY (May 26, 2004)

educate me !! shoots good 20-30 out to 40 arrows go left . fourm problem or rest need moved ?


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## 963369 (Nov 15, 2003)

Further you go the greater is ANY problem magnified. Rest COULD be microscopically off a tad bit, or a very minor form flaw is magnified as you go further. Check centershot, nock height, and tiller. If all's good @20-30, and left at 40, it usually means it's ME.


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## AKDoug (Aug 27, 2003)

Helped my hunting partner tune up his Drop Zone on his SQ2 the other day. 20 and 30 were fine...40,50, and 60 were starting to drift left. Moved his rest 1 mm to the right and all was good again. It's amazing how small of increments it takes to move a group over at 50 yards.


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## PA.JAY (May 26, 2004)

thats what I was looking for was'nt sure to move right or left ! thanks Tautog Rich i'm sure i play in problem also


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## PA.JAY (May 26, 2004)

1mm or less brought it in perfect !! :shade:


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## Jabwa (Dec 10, 2004)

Yep. That walk back tuning works great if you can shoot tight groups. I understand a guy by the name of Beiter came up with the technique! :smile: It is important to use the same sight mark or pin, however, to eliminate all variables.


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## Jabwa (Dec 10, 2004)

Got to thinking about that 2" left paper tear (can't help myself- I'm a bow tuning junkie). Since this indicates a stiff arrow for me, and since increasing point weight 25 gr gave me a straight up, 1" tear, why not increase the weight on the bow? So I went up from 57# to 60# and nothing changed except the arrow with the 25 gr heavier point tore to the right. This last is as expected, but why didn't my left tear go away? Must be fletch contact I said, so I tried an unfletched arrow. Bullet hole. Then I turned my nock every which way but loose- still a left tear. I know how to get this bow to shoot, but why can't I get it to bullet hole with a FLETCHED ARROW!!!!


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## Bow-zo (Jul 18, 2003)

*Walk'in on back here Boss!*

You do not really have to shoot tight groups for it to work. You just do not walk back as far if you can not. Just shoot more arrows and take a average.
I do most of my center shot testing @ 20 & 30 yds. But you can really fine tune it @ 80. 

dave!


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## PLASTIC PAUL (Sep 19, 2004)

*Interesting*

This is wild, i used to shoot a darton that wouldn't paper tune at all but shot great groups at 50 yds.

My SIII with the Light Speeds i just built was shooting really nice over the weekend so i decided to try paper tonight. I got a bullet hole. Now i need to shoot at some longer distances to see how it groups.

Here is something worth pondering along the same lines. Will X type cams shoot a wider range of arrows well, in terms of stiffness? Along a similar path will bows with truly level nock travel do the same thing? Just curious if anyone has any experience with this.


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## Jabwa (Dec 10, 2004)

Target Guy:

Interesting food for thought. Here's another one. Do we really need any more information to determine the correct spine of an arrow for our bow than these three things: 1. the power stroke (i.e. true draw - brace height) 2. velocity of the arrow when it leaves the bow and 3. weight of the arrow. What difference does it make if you have an overdraw, whether your riser is deflexed or reflexed, whether you have a hard cam or round wheels or whether your bow is 31" ATA or 46" ATA? All of these things will be reflected in the speed of the arrow as it leaves the bow, so why not just use the arrow speed?


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## PLASTIC PAUL (Sep 19, 2004)

I presume you are referring to the IBO number. What you are saying makes sense and yet it seems too simple. Now again back to my question. A dual cam or a bow with level nock travel will put the force more evenly into the arrow and should we consider this? I have seen some bows with pretty extreme nock travel and that means the arrow is actually being straightened out by the rest or it would go into the floor. I think a bow with a more "inline" power stroke would be more tolerant of different arrow spines.


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## CarbonTerry (Jan 8, 2003)

Your level must be perpendicular to the bracket that the pin is attached to. The string plays no role in leveling your sight. Neither does the riser.
It's possible to have your bow canted at a 45% angle and still have no left/right problems. (crossbows prove this)
The arrow leaves the string from one consistent point.
My illustration is somewhat crude and extreme but still correct.
Of course your sight must have a method that allows you to pivot the bar on the piece that bolts onto the riser if you "want" to naturally cant the bow as many archers do.


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## CarbonTerry (Jan 8, 2003)

Having said the above, if your sight is not correctly leveled the walk back method (and others) will actually cause you to de-tune your bow to get the arrow the hit "on-line"!!!! :angry:
This is especially true if a multiple pin sight does not allow for individual pin l/r adjustment.


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## Jabwa (Dec 10, 2004)

Carbon Terry:

Not so if you use the same pin at every distance and shoot at a vertical line.


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## CarbonTerry (Jan 8, 2003)

Especially so if you use one pin.


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## shaun748 (Aug 11, 2004)

interesting ideas/information going on here..my question/feelings regarding paper tuning is that it is important if you shoot broadheads, in the sense that you want as near a "straight" launch as possible(notwithstanding normal oscillation at closer ranges). 

with field tips you can have a bad paper tear and the fletching will correct it fast enough to allow grouping and apparent good flight, but I bet with a 2 inch tear your broadheads are gonna plane all over(especially over 20 yards), since that indicates the arrow is starting out at an angle.. 

I bareshaft back to 40 yards and expect near perfect flight, which lets me know I am getting an almost perfect,straight launch, which means my broadheads wont "catch air" at an off angle and begin planning. this will almost always give me close to bullet holes at all reasonable close distances with a bareshaft.

I am far from being a RAGSDALE so I this as my opinion only...I will say that even Bob Ragdale says most people proably should spend more time practicing than stressing about a 1/2 inch paper tear(sadly,I am one of those anal types,,,LOL)

just so you you know I am also a BIG believer in the motto,"if it ain't broke,don't fix it." if it is shooting/grouping good then what more can you ask for..


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## Marcus (Jun 19, 2002)

If you are using a release aid then a left tear won't indicate spine because the arows flex up and down and not left to right from a release aid shot bow. 
Change your hand position and watch that tear go away.


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## Jerry/NJ (Jan 17, 2003)

Marcus said:


> If you are using a release aid then a left tear won't indicate spine because the arows flex up and down and not left to right from a release aid shot bow.
> Change your hand position and watch that tear go away.


Sometimes not always :beer:


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## Jabwa (Dec 10, 2004)

Marcus:

First, why do you believe the arrow paradox for a release shooter only occurs in a vertical plane? Second, paper tears occur because the back end of the arrow is not in direct line with the point, not from arrow paradox unless the FOC is rather large. In my opinion, if the shaft does not have the proper spine, the impact at release will magnify any slight nock point or arrow rest misalignment and cause bad tears. In other words, the spine acts as a kind of shock absorber. If the spine is too weak, it allows the arrow too much flex and again magnifies the errors made in setting up the bow. If the bow is set up exactly perfect and the bow limbs are perfectly matched, I would agree that any arrow SHOULD bullet hole.


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## Meleagris1 (Jan 8, 2003)

Target Guy said:


> This is wild, i used to shoot a darton that wouldn't paper tune at all but shot great groups at 50 yds.
> 
> My SIII with the Light Speeds i just built was shooting really nice over the weekend so i decided to try paper tonight. I got a bullet hole. Now i need to shoot at some longer distances to see how it groups.
> 
> Here is something worth pondering along the same lines. Will X type cams shoot a wider range of arrows well, in terms of stiffness? Along a similar path will bows with truly level nock travel do the same thing? Just curious if anyone has any experience with this.


Target guy, 

YES! The X cams are MUCH more fogiving of arrow spine IMO, and ITO of many I have shot with. I can use a much weaker spine than recommended and still get perfect flight. I shoot the NOS-X cams for target exclusively.


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## Southern Hunter (Apr 18, 2005)

*Tuning for groups*

This stuff is very interesting! Let me first say I am no expert in bow tuning, but I have been reading these post for weeks. I posted on one several days ago when some stated they were shooting 20 yards dead on and missing left or right at 30 to 40 yards. I told them I was having some of the same problems and asked what do you do. They were kind enough to explain what I needed to do by setting my site and moving my rest at different yardages. Well I went to work on my bow and rest the next day, now I have only been shooting for a little over 4 months and I read everything about arrow spine and foc and have downloaded all of the programs to boot. I am a information junkie now when it comes to my bow and how it shoots. I know I don't have correct form and don't have a coach, I only know what works for me. well anyway I was going to shoot today at our club and I had a problem with my rest so I changed it. Well while I am getting ready to start getting my rest set I tape some duct tape to the target bags(20 & 30) and mark off 10 yards to start tuning. I shoot my 10 yard shot and move my site till I hit my vertical line and move to 30 yards and shoot and move my rest till I am on my line until I am satisifed. A couple of guys who have been shooting longer than me asked why was I moving my rest and not my site when I was tuning for longer yardage. I tried to explain the best I could and they kinda shrugged it off as witch craft or something because it came from the internet. well anyway I keep learning from you guys and some of us newbies do understand and want to learn from you so keep up the great post on tuning and will keep shooting and learning. I practice every day, 7 days a week, 2 to 3 hours a day.....


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## Jabwa (Dec 10, 2004)

Glad you read these posts. Sometimes we get tired of answering the same questions, but replies like yours make it worthwhile! I am sure I speak for everyone when I say thank you for appreciating! Not everything we say is correct. Everyone here is still learning and will until they die. You must remember that each person is at a different point in this journey called archery. You must listen to everyone, and even if you think the information is bogus, you must store it away. Then, at a future time, the value may become apparent. Good luck on your journey!


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## shaun748 (Aug 11, 2004)

there are definatley some sharp and helpful people here..I know I have always enjoyed learning something and hearing others ideas.

anyway, I had actually e-mailed Bob Ragsdale this same general question about a month ago regarding my "weird long range bare-shaft paper test" ,that I now strive for like an obsessive idiot. 
I was curious if he thought it was a waste of time striving for bare-shaft bullet holes at long ranges and if it was even worthwhile. I was curious and open to the fact/possibility that he would tell me what a waste of time &/or stupid idea it was. I know he gets a million questions so I really did not expect a reply.

I count him as one of the many great contribitors to archery. For many years I would not touch my own bow & it was actually his explanations on bow tuning that finally made it all click and took away the "mystery'..I began tuning my own 2 wheeled bows and have been working on them ever since.
He has a great Site with many questions/answers,and though a experianced shooter/tuner, may not learn a lot more it would be great for anyone else. 
http://www.bowhunting.net/bobragsdale/ragsdale.html#top


anyway here is his reply regarding the bareshaft paper test for those that also do it.

COURTESY RESPONSE 
Your inquiry as I interpret it; 
Bare shaft paper test value. 

Dear Shaun, 

Combining both the bare shaft and the paper test is a degree above. That is, if you are getting good holes at all those distances they will be even better when some tail drag is added. 

It appears you have grasped the concept and have latched on and will surely have a better grouping bow setup because of it. Also, this way when something going awry you know immediately it is not a spine problem. Well done my friend. 

Most archers are much too quick to jump to conclusions and to accept unsubstantiated claims by others, particularly in advertisements. Please, let me suggest to you that it is not wise to make any change what-so-ever without first asking either yourself or your mentor; "If I make this change, how much additional accuracy will occur instantly with the same amount of effort on my part?" 

You asked, and now you have another person's point of view. Hope this helps you further enjoy your archery recreational time, mention my name when next you, your group or your business has need of an investigator or expert witness. GOD BLESS AMERICA! Bob Ragsdale 

Thank you, Bob Ragsdale 
DeleteReplyForwardSpamMove...


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## Jabwa (Dec 10, 2004)

Yep. And the part about tail drag is very true. If you aren't getting bullet holes at 10 yards with a fletched arrow, you need bigger vanes! The purpose of vanes is to clear up all these bow tuning problems, so why do we put teensy tiny 1.25", low profile vanes on our 350 grain arrows? Go figure!


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## Meleagris1 (Jan 8, 2003)

Jabwa said:


> Yep. And the part about tail drag is very true. If you aren't getting bullet holes at 10 yards with a fletched arrow, you need bigger vanes! The purpose of vanes is to clear up all these bow tuning problems, so why do we put teensy tiny 1.25", low profile vanes on our 350 grain arrows? Go figure!


Actually, if it were my bow I would say I still have tuning to do. My goal is to try and get the best flight possible with as little vane as possible. I want to see what my arrow is doing, and correct it. Then my vanes will do their job of keeping the arrow on that path much more efficiently.

Smaller vanes also provide some significant advantages, mostly for target applications, such as less wind drift. Target shooters can't afford to put huge vanes on their arrows (too much weight and wind drift), they have to perfect their tune. Even for hunters, less vane weight means more FOC, which is good for broadhead flight. 

If you get your arrows flying well and paper tuned with smaller vanes, just think how forgiving they will be with 4" feathers. TOO large a vane of feather can prevent you from really fine tuning your setup, because the vane is taking over so quickly and masking any imperfections in flight. However, those imperfections are still there and preventing you from seeing that your arrow is not leaving the bow as efficiently as it could.


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## Jabwa (Dec 10, 2004)

I agree with everything you said, but I have had situations where a high tear continued to show all the way from 5 yards out to 15 or even 20 yards. Now in this case, even though the tune is wrong, why even bother with vanes? A little larger vane should correct arrow flight by the time the arrow has gone 10 yards, right?


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## Meleagris1 (Jan 8, 2003)

Jabwa said:


> I agree with everything you said, but I have had situations where a high tear continued to show all the way from 5 yards out to 15 or even 20 yards. Now in this case, even though the tune is wrong, why even bother with vanes? A little larger vane should correct arrow flight by the time the arrow has gone 10 yards, right?


It may correct that problem, but I know that some combination of adjusting your rest, nock point and/or spine will fix it. You have to determine if you want to tune your bow to that degree. Most tartget archers will do that. Depends on how hight the tear is too, some archers actually prefer a "slight" nock high tear 1/4" or so. The thinking being better rest clearance. I don't buy into that though as I have watched alot of high speed video of compounds and I just don't see the upward movement of the arrow away from the rest. I like to see a bullet hole.


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## Jabwa (Dec 10, 2004)

I respectfully must disagree. Nock point, spine, point weight, rest position, rest tension, changing peak weight, etc. in some cases will not change things. I suspect in these cases it may be form (yet other bows will shoot bullet holes) or it may be nock travel (although bow is timed) or it may be slightly mismatched limbs (although tiller was checked with limb bolts bottomed out). So why? I don't know. I presently have a situation where I purposely left an arrow long without cutting, and slowly began cutting back until I acheived a bullet hole. The arrow started out tearing about 1" nock high and this tear stayed exactly the same until suddenly I cut one more 1/4" off the arrow and bingo! Bullet hole! How do you explain this when we are constantly told that a nock high tear means a stiff arrow? Maybe arrow overhang or FOC? The situation I just described also indicates that sometimes we must be almost perfect in our adjustments before any change occurs. I have found this particularly pertains to changing bow peak weight and changing point weight. Arrow length seems to change things the most in MOST CASES. There are so many variables and you can't change one without changing several others- this is why tuning will never be very scientific.


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## Meleagris1 (Jan 8, 2003)

OK. Good luck.


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## CarbonTerry (Jan 8, 2003)

Maybe you really had a weak shaft that was 'bouncing" off the rest because it wanted to leave the bow nock low and the rest tension was giving it a nock high tear. That last 1/4" you cut off eliminated the weak spine issue?


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## GreggWNY (Sep 6, 2002)

Next time you shoot through paper and get a left tear try this....hold the release 6 or 8 inches away from your face and shoot through paper...bullet hole or maby slight up or down tear. Why, many times I have seen a left tear from a T handle relase because the string has to whip saw around your face at at anchor. Don't believe it? Try it.


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## CarbonTerry (Jan 8, 2003)

You are Right On, Greg. Many shooters "lean into" the string As it can help you hold a tad bit more steady. (really bad grammar there....)


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