# Olympics



## RMBX10

Great idea!


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## Seattlepop

Absolutely, but first I need to get over the crushing beat-down our soccer women took from Sweden.

(I show archery starting Friday 8:30pm EDT)


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## Black46

Tokyo 2020 Olympic Games


Results, scores, news and more from the Tokyo 2020 Olympic Games




worldarchery.sport


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## Seattlepop

Yep, Friday. I assume those are local Tokyo times. 

*SCHEDULE*


FRIDAY 23 JULY
 QUALIFICATION 09:00
 QUALIFICATION 13:00


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## limbwalker

Stash said:


> The ranking rounds start in 24 hours. How about we discuss the results in this thread as they come in?


That was my plan, but I will be serving as an adult volunteer for a church teen retreat starting tomorrow and I'll miss all the team rounds.  I'll watch them after the fact and catch the individuals live, I hope. It is what it is.


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## Skeptix_907

what time eastern will this be?


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## Stash

Skeptix_907 said:


> what time eastern will this be?


8:00 pm Women’s ranking round. 
Midnight Men’s.


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## Taufiq

Will the ranking round broadcasted live?


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## Vittorio

Results will be updated live on Ianseo.



Tokyo 2020 Olympic Games



Nothing more than this, for the qualification round ..


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## chrstphr

I have a strange feeling that this Olympics are going to be the upset Olympics and the usual winners arent going to be a lock. I have a feeling Korea women may fall to Chinese Taipei and lose the lock on the women's Olympic gold. They may not win the individual gold either.

There are a lot of archery blockers this time around and with the year off from covid, i think its anyone's ballgame. I think we will see new country archers on the podiums this time around. 

just my prediction...

Chris


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## Boomer2094

Chris,

As much as I enjoy watching Koreans shoot, I sure hope you are right...

Koreans had their time on the podium, time for other nation's archer to be on the podium for a change.

Just like how the rest of the World caught up to the US Man's basketball, Time for the rest of the World to catch up to Korean archers.

Vittorio,

Thanks for the link!


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## Stash

It’s on. 👍


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## bluedevil49

Live scores coming in Tokyo 2020 Olympic Games


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## Stash

Korean and Mexican teams kicking butt after 4 ends. Japan and USA right behind. You want to be in the top 4 to get a bye on the first round.


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## Stash

After 36 - An of Korea leading with 345, on near WR pace, way over OR pace.

Well, my best ever Oly 70m score (from 40 years ago 😢) would have put me only 17th at this event. Humbling.

Korean team leading by 30 over USA at the half. Sorry, Boomer (😄) but the World ain’t catching up the the Korean women just yet.


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## Stash

Haven’t seen any 60s. Barbelin (FRA) has a couple of 59s on her scorecard.


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## Draven Olary

3/13/24 for the moment


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## Stash

Korean just went 1-2-3 with 2 ends to go.


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## chrstphr

i dont think the WR will fall, but the OR will.
Looks like Mackenzie will be the female side of the mixed team.
Chris


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## chrstphr

Stash said:


> Korean just went 1-2-3 with 2 ends to go.


Kang Chaeyoung really had a rally for 3 ends to come back into the top 3.

Chris


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## chrstphr

Im not sure why the Olympic channel shows the OR record as a 673 from 96. Says AnSan has a new OR with 680.

Park Sunghyun shot a 682 at Athens in 2004. Does Athens 2004 not count?









Athens 2004 Olympic Games


Results, scores, news and more from the Athens 2004 Olympic Games




worldarchery.sport





maybe i am misunderstanding. 

Chris


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## Stash

Korea 1-2-3. Impressive.


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## Draven Olary

Yes, but Mexic is tough too. Their top archers jumped places ahead after 1st round.


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## Stash

Dunno.

World Archery website shows the OR as 673 in 1996, slightly different spelling of the same archer’s name.


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## >--gt-->

chrstphr said:


> Im not sure why the Olympic channel shows the OR record as a 673 from 96. Says AnSan has a new OR with 680.
> 
> Park Sunghyun shot a 682 at Athens in 2004. Does Athens 2004 not count?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Athens 2004 Olympic Games
> 
> 
> Results, scores, news and more from the Athens 2004 Olympic Games
> 
> 
> 
> 
> worldarchery.sport
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> maybe i am misunderstanding.
> 
> Chris


Correct, Ms. Park shot a 682 in Athens, but 2004 did not count as the round occured before the opening ceremony.

Of course that is also the case in Tokyo as well, (ETA however, the “day of” Opening Ceremony is good enough.


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## chrstphr

>--gt--> said:


> Correct, Ms. Park shot a 682 in Athens, but 2004 did not count as the round occured before the opening ceremony.
> 
> Of course that is also the case in Tokyo as well, however, it appears that the policy has been changed.


thank you for clarifying. Interesting rule, and when they decide to apply it. 

Chris


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## Stash

Thanks for the clarification, George. I suppose it would be of no value to express the opinion that this seems a bit unfair to Ms Park, and to Ms Herasymenko.

Men are up.

Williams seems to be having a problem. 57 on his first end, then 8-8-8-8-8-7=47 on his second.


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## Stash

I think we have our first 60s by Wei of China, 4th end, J D Kim of Korea, 5th end and Tang of Taipei, 6th end.

Korea way out in front in the men’s team, and the mixed team as well. Headed for all 5 top ranking positions.

(My PB at 70 would have put me 37th in the men’s round at the half.)


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## chrstphr

Wei Shaoxuan also had a 60 in the 6th end.
Tang Chih-shun had a 60 in the 4th end.

Chris


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## >--gt-->

Stan, I agree completely.

Conditions are poor for the US team, they’re on the center targets and have very poor wind clues. You want to be on the left or right on this field. They’re dealing with 11-14 mph winds from dead astern, with a big building directly behind- that wind is directly off the bay. I’ve shot there three times and the wind is no joke.


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## Stash

Well, I suppose that, except for the mixed team cut line, the ranking round isn’t all it’s that critical. Duenas needs to pick it up to get Canada into the top 16.

George, are they all shooting one per target? No pics - looks like it from the target assignment numbers.


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## >--gt-->

Stash said:


> Well, I suppose that, except for the mixed team cut line, the ranking round isn’t all it’s that critical. Duenas needs to pick it up to get Canada into the top 16.
> 
> George, are they all shooting one per target? No pics - looks like it from the target assignment numbers.


Correct, 1 per target- each archer has about 6 foot separation. Plenty of space. The whole ranking round could have been shot on that field for both genders simultaneously in more normal times.


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## tassie_devil

Obviously a quirk of the COVID isolation thing, but its great to see the 210 ranked archer in the world throwing down the gauntlet! Fair to say that the Koreans haven't suffered much from lack of international preparation up to this piont...


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## Stash

Bugger!!!😫 Canadian team missed the mixed team cut by 2 measly points. 🙁 Oh well, would have had to face Korea in the first round and likely get the crap kicked out of them anyways. 😬


Strong finish for Brady to get to 2nd. 👍


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## >--gt-->

Stash said:


> Bugger!!!😫 Canadian team missed the mixed team cut by 2 measly points. 🙁 Oh well, would have had to face Korea in the first round and likely get the crap kicked out of them anyways. 😬
> 
> 
> Strong finish for Brady to get to 2nd. 👍


It was indeed strong- the USA men were on the toughest part of that field, dead center, with a 14-16 mph tailwind and very little in the way of wind indicators. Brady’s performance was superlative.


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## Metropolis

I wonder what's Kim Je Deok's draw weight, leading qualification in "inconsistent winds" at 17 yo : )


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## Vittorio

The rule is not changed. Qualification day has been moved to the day of the Opening Ceremony after Athens, and the day of the opening ceremony is considered part of the Olympic Games. Michele's 684 from Atlanta was beaten by IM Don Yun in Athens already but did not count. Then IM shot 699 in London and that was finally the new Olympic record after Atlanta, till 700 from KIM WJ in Rio. But in London and Rio no women has beaten Herasimenko 1996 Atlanta record, so now it goes to AN San with 680.


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## carlosii

NBC seems to be putting archery on the bottom of the list for broadcasting those events.


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## chrstphr

unfortunate, but i guess she never shot nationals in Decatur, Alabama. Or in Vegas when it was 115. 

Said temp was 86 degrees with humidity and very hot.



https://www.yahoo.com/sports/russian-archer-collapses-due-to-extreme-heat-in-qualification-event-075726037.html



Chris


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## pynnoj

carlosii said:


> NBC seems to be putting archery on the bottom of the list for broadcasting those events.


There are hours upon hours of Olympic Archery available for streaming over the NBC Sports app or over Peacock Network. If you have comcast then you have peacock. Just say “olympic achery” into your remotes mic and it will pull up the schedule…… Otherwise there is a Peacock app you can download. Option two is to download the NBC Sports app onto your computer, iPad or smart phone…. Its all there and will be available for replay if you cant watch the live coverage. I’m showing scheduled televised coverage everyday through the finals on 7/31/2021.


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## chrstphr

article on Brady



https://www.yahoo.com/sports/gold-medal-v-golden-arches-025052163.html




Chris


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## tassie_devil

chrstphr said:


> article on Brady
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.yahoo.com/sports/gold-medal-v-golden-arches-025052163.html
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Chris


Nice article. I didn't know about the drug test - must have been unbelievably stressful. Thankfully common sense prevailed (it doesn't always when it comes to drugs in sport).


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## FerrumVeritas

I have a feeling mixed team will end up following qualifications seed pretty closely, but I'd love to see an upset against Korea. It doesn't seem likely, but the US does often do surprisingly well in mixed team events.


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## chrstphr

oof.... Canada just missed the cut of 16 for mixed team eliminations. I would have liked to watch Crispin compete. 


Chris


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## calbowdude

Oh wow, I am a Crispin fan, sorry to hear mixed didn't qualify...


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## Stash

chrstphr said:


> oof.... Canada just missed the cut of 16 for mixed team eliminations. I would have liked to watch Crispin compete.
> 
> 
> Chris


Yeah, I was watching his scores closely. He managed to get his team from 20th (10 points back) with 3 ends to go, to 17th, within 2 points. 

It’s been 8 years (I think) since his WC bronze. I think he’s overdue for another good result this time. 👍


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## FerrumVeritas

More proof that equipment doesn't really matter: Bettles is shooting a $15 Avalon plunger. That's a piece of kit that I generally would have thought quality was paramount on. Obviously not.

I bet the Chinese coach is kicking themself for subbing out their archers.


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## woof156

Stash said:


> Yeah, I was watching his scores closely. He managed to get his team from 20th (10 points back) with 3 ends to go, to 17th, within 2 points.
> 
> It’s been 8 years (I think) since his WC bronze. I think he’s overdue for another good result this time. 👍


He is always a good competitor and nice thoughful guy...Sounds like the heat was gruesome....


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## chrstphr

FerrumVeritas said:


> I bet the Chinese coach is kicking themself for subbing out their archers.


Yes, pretty stupid to swap out your two best archers. China is not deep in the talent pool like Korea. 

Not sure what their reasoning was, but i am glad Patrick got to advance.

Chris


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## Stash

FerrumVeritas said:


> I bet the Chinese coach is kicking themself for subbing out their archers.


Explain?


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## FerrumVeritas

Stash said:


> Explain?


They replaced their archers going in to the match with their second best. They then lost to GB, who was a lower seed.


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## Stash

Ah, thanks. Haven’t followed the matches today yet.


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## FerrumVeritas

Wow. Lucky break for the US. (Against Indonesia)

Disappointed that they lost, but honestly the way they were shooting it shouldn't have even gone that far. Indonesia was on fire for the first half of that.


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## chrstphr

well, i said i thought it would be the upset Olympics. So far in mixed team, the underdogs are winning. 

What a match with Indonesia. 

Brady and Mackenzie seemed like they couldnt find their shot. 


Chris


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## woof156

chrstphr said:


> well, i said i thought it would be the upset Olympics. So far in mixed team, the underdogs are winning.
> 
> What a match with Indonesia.
> 
> Brady and Mackenzie seemed like they couldnt find their shot.
> 
> 
> Chris


B and M were outclassed from the first arrow and sad to say the correct team won that one-- only one team was in the game for what ever reason...


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## chrstphr

i was also surprised that Brady did not bring out a backup bow. I guess he had supreme confidence he wouldnt have a bow issue. Seems risky on the highest tournament stage in the world. They would have lost if he had a bow problem. I doubt Mackenzie's bow would shoot his arrows well. 

So far everyone else i have seen and walked out with a backup bow. 

I also dont see Nespoli benefiting from such a high poundage. I think he would have better results if he came down to a more controllable poundage. He shakes like Jake Kaminski did. 

And the Russian guy must be shooting high poundage. his sight mark was in the middle of the sight bar. 

France also subbing in the number two archer for the number one. Hope it was a good decision. 

These subs are not logical to me. Why sideline the higher scoring archer? Seems like the subs are shooting themselves in the foot. 

Chris


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## woof156

chrstphr said:


> i was also surprised that Brady did not bring out a backup bow. I guess he had supreme confidence he wouldnt have a bow issue. Seems risky on the highest tournament stage in the world. They would have lost if he had a bow problem. I doubt Mackenzie's bow would shoot his arrows well.
> 
> So far everyone else i have seen and walked out with a backup bow.
> 
> I also dont see Nespoli benefiting from such a high poundage. I think he would have better results if he came down to a more controllable poundage. He shakes like Jake Kaminski did.
> 
> And the Russian guy must be shooting high poundage. his sight mark was in the middle of the sight bar.
> 
> Chris


I may have mistaken it but I tho't both did and handed them off KL before they stepped up for intros...???Netherlands shot well both S and W.


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## Hikari

...


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## chrstphr

woof156 said:


> I may have mistaken it but I tho't both did and handed them off KL before they stepped up for intros...???Netherlands shot well both S and W.


Brady handed his only bow to KL. He walked out with one bow in his hand. Mackenzie had two and handed off one bow to KL.



Chris


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## FerrumVeritas

chrstphr said:


> France also subbing in the number two archer for the number one. Hope it was a good decision.
> 
> These subs are not logical to me.
> 
> Chris


I bet it's that their better archer didn't think he could shoot with the time pressure Barbelin is putting them under.


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## Stash

Where you guys watching this? Can’t find it in Canada.


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## lucydad

Interesting, thanks, I need to see if I can watch some..


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## chrstphr

Stash said:


> Where you guys watching this? Can’t find it in Canada.


Im watching it on nbc sports app on my tv. You can also see it on nbc peacock app on tv.
real time scoring is here








Tokyo 2020 Archery - Olympic Results by Discipline


Official Archery results from the Tokyo 2020 Olympics. Full list of gold, silver and bronze medallists as well as photos and videos of medal-winning moments.




olympics.com





You can watch it on the internet here, but you have to have a local provider like Cox, Directv etc.








Archery Mixed Team Prelims


The mixed team prelims kick off on Saturday at Yumenoshima Park Archery Field to determine the teams in the quarterfinals later that day.




stream.nbcolympics.com





I am not sure if it will work in Canada. it may be USA dependent for the tv companies. 

Chris


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## woof156

chrstphr said:


> View attachment 7437308
> 
> Brady handed his only bow to KL. He walked out with one bow in his hand. Mackenzie had two and handed off one bow to KL.
> 
> 
> 
> Chris


Proof is in the pudding there. I missed the shoot off cause the steaming stopped till I gave them some info (internet provider) but I read the scores later... too bad....


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## Stash

Thanks, can’t get those apps in Canada. 😢 First world problems...😄

Your NBC link goes to a screen which says “Temporary Pass” with a 30 minute countdown. I just wasted 2 minutes of it watching the thing go ‘round and ‘round...Nothing’s loading, but could be because there’s nothing on (?). 

If I’m still awake I think I’ll save it until the next Korea match. No use clearing my cookies and using over and over - I’m sure NBC has already downloaded all my personal information...😄


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## Taufiq

Stash said:


> Thanks, can’t get those apps in Canada. 😢 First world problems...😄
> 
> Your NBC link goes to a screen which says “Temporary Pass” with a 30 minute countdown. I just wasted 2 minutes of it watching the thing go ‘round and ‘round...Nothing’s loading, but could be because there’s nothing on (?).
> 
> If I’m still awake I think I’ll save it until the next Korea match. No use clearing my cookies and using over and over - I’m sure NBC has already downloaded all my personal information...😄


Have you tried this link?



https://www.cbc.ca/sports/olympics/summer/schedule-results


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## carlosii

pynnoj said:


> There are hours upon hours of Olympic Archery available for streaming over the NBC Sports app or over Peacock Network. If you have comcast then you have peacock. Just say “olympic achery” into your remotes mic and it will pull up the schedule…… Otherwise there is a Peacock app you can download. Option two is to download the NBC Sports app onto your computer, iPad or smart phone…. Its all there and will be available for replay if you cant watch the live coverage. I’m showing scheduled televised coverage everyday through the finals on 7/31/2021.


I downloaded Peacock. No archery competition that I could find. Some events show up on the schedule. I could not find hours and hours of archery. Guess I'm just not tech savvy enough.


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## Ray.L

Stash said:


> Where you guys watching this? Can’t find it in Canada.


Same problem. Apparently our publicly-funded broadcaster can't find it in them to even stream all events. The mixed team finals should be streamed. https://www.cbc.ca/sports/olympics/summer/streaming-schedule


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## maxpowerpc2000

I am too poor for cable TV.


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## >--gt-->

NBC needs better fact checkers…. They have screwed up identifying the shooter from Indonesia by saying he is a different guy than the Indonesian who beat Kim Woojin in Rio. Same guy, new name.


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## chrstphr

my audio has been off from the video feed. The sound of the shot and the sound of the arrow hitting the target, then the video shows the release of the shot. Its off by quite a bit. But i guess i should be happy that anyone is showing it. 

Chris


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## chrstphr

https://www.yahoo.com/sports/olympics-archery-u-pair-ousted-034902296.html



comments by Brady and Mackenzie after the loss.

I imagine it is a weird experience to shoot with the stands completely empty.

and feature on the USA women's team. 


https://www.yahoo.com/sports/to-be-an-olympian-in-tokyo-is-lifetime-achievement-and-the-parents-have-to-watch-at-home-061705721.html



Chris


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## tassie_devil

Should any Aussies be watching it’s free and live on the 7plus app (don’t know if its geoblocked but possibly an option elsewhere too)…


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## RAzZin

Man I freaking hate the country I live in! Russia looses in 1\8 so not streams of 1\4,1\2,finals for us despite the official Olympics broadcaster sweared they will be whowing everything online. Who cares, right? What the f**k!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## monterey

Here's the streaming link for CBC in Canada. Not sure if it works for other locations.
They streamed the quarter finals and up for the mixed team. 
In the Finished list, they separated the quarter/semi/finals but they are all there with a replay button on them. 

CBC Streaming Schedule


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## Itsjtome

korean stream link


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## woof156

chrstphr said:


> my audio has been off from the video feed. The sound of the shot and the sound of the arrow hitting the target, then the video shows the release of the shot. Its off by quite a bit. But i guess i should be happy that anyone is showing it.
> 
> Chris


Yeah you hear the score about when you see the arrow release-- small price but it is odd. France does need to work on their shot clock work.... good shooting tho... Really too bad Brady and Mackinsie were not on their game and in the shoot off it was the worlds best that hit the 8 and Mackinsie hit 10. Guess we all have bad days just the majority of us do not have them on world TV.


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## Hikari

chrstphr said:


> I imagine it is a weird experience to shoot with the stands completely empty.


Not in a pandemic. Those were disappointing comments. 

I think I am more disappointed they are not vaccinated. You need more respect for your teammates and hosts if you are going to be an athlete at that level.


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## FerrumVeritas

Are the Koreans shooting prototype limbs? They don't seem to be any of W&W's current line up.


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## Ray.L

FerrumVeritas said:


> Are the Koreans shooting prototype limbs? They don't seem to be any of W&W's current line up.


They're shooting the older NS Wood limbs.


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## FerrumVeritas

Ray.L said:


> They're shooting the older NS Wood limbs.


Lot of high level archers seem to prefer the NS limbs to the MXT-10s.


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## Itsjtome

FerrumVeritas said:


> Are the Koreans shooting prototype limbs? They don't seem to be any of W&W's current line up.


An San is shooting NS-G wood flax limbs, which can be found on W&W’s website

Edit: i am mistaken, she has switched back to ns-wood limbs, she was shooting the ns-g woods at another competition earlier this year, memory is a bit fuzzy haha


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## Stash

What’s with the yelling by Kim JD? No rule against it, I guess, but I’d find it annoying as hell if I was near him.


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## styks n stryngs

Stash said:


> What’s with the yelling by Kim JD? No rule against it, I guess, but I’d find it annoying as hell if I was near him.


Probably a carryover from his youth shooting days, his friends used to hype him up from the stands in typical Korean fashion. He's also young, so he probably needs to vent the tension by yelling.


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## aavaaz

Stash said:


> What’s with the yelling by Kim JD? No rule against it, I guess, but I’d find it annoying as hell if I was near him.


It's called "Peak Performance Priming", and has been proven scientifically to build chemicals in your brain that hone focus by shutting out distractions (both internal and external). Of all the sports Archery really needs it because of inactivity during ends or sets. Hope that answers your question.
best,
Vik


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## Stash

Watched him in a few Youtube videos, he wasn’t doing it in them. Guess it’s a team motivation thing. But, annoying nevertheless. 😄


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## fingers81

Any one see the Katie Ledecky commercial where she takes up archery


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## woof156

Stash said:


> What’s with the yelling by Kim JD? No rule against it, I guess, but I’d find it annoying as hell if I was near him.


Winners of the worst fan award with all the yelling-- but hey it seems to work or is it just that they are sooo good and consistent??


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## TER

Stash said:


> What’s with the yelling by Kim JD? No rule against it, I guess, but I’d find it annoying as hell if I was near him.


If he was doing it while other people were shooting, I would call it disrespectful, selfish, and wrong; as I did when Brady screamed after breaking a world record. But in this case it's a young guy having a great time while competing in the Olympic Games. And also doing what aavaaz has explained. He's not interfering with anyone else's shooting. A side effect is that he became famous today. Women are swooning over how "cute" he is. I'm sure Kim JD has started something that will be encouraged in the future in World Class matches. Spectators like at least a little excitement. Good for TV and Youtube. Not even archers get much enjoyment watching competitors who appear to be nearly comatose, such as the French mixed team. As time passes things keep on changing.


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## Stash

Yeah, well, I’m a grumpy old man, and I don’t care for it. If I was shooting near him or against him in a match I’d find it annoying. Yeah, it’s not during actual shooting time, but I mean, you’re standing there waiting for the horn, visualizing or trying to get calm or doing whatever you do to prepare mentally, and this shout comes out and startles you. If there was a crowd yelling, it might blend in, but not in dead silence.

What’s next, release grunts like some tennis players do?


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## chrstphr

Hikari said:


> Not in a pandemic. Those were disappointing comments.
> 
> I think I am more disappointed they are not vaccinated. You need more respect for your teammates and hosts if you are going to be an athlete at that level.


Brady said he already had Covid. So he wouldnt need the vaccine, he has natural immunity from the infection. 

Chris


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## Skeptix_907

aavaaz said:


> It's called "Peak Performance Priming", and has been proven scientifically to build chemicals in your brain that hone focus by shutting out distractions (both internal and external). Of all the sports Archery really needs it because of inactivity during ends or sets. Hope that answers your question.
> best,
> Vik


I tried to search scientific literature on this but found nothing.

It sounds like another broscience fad like cupping was a few years back. No real evidence behind it.


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## Stash

Skeptix_907 said:


> I tried to search scientific literature on this but found nothing.
> 
> It sounds like another broscience fad like cupping was a few years back. No real evidence behind it.


And fist-bumping and high 5s. 😄


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## Stash

chrstphr said:


> Brady said he already had Covid. So he wouldnt need the vaccine, he has natural immunity from the infection.


He might want to consult with some health care experts on that. It’s very possible for people who have been previously infected to contract the virus again, and vaccines do a better job than “natural immunity”. Besides, he’ll be coming back to an infant child from a country that’s dealing with resurgence of the virus, to his own country that’s dealing with a resurgence. But this is more of an A&E discussion. 🙂


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## FerrumVeritas

More importantly, while reinfection is likely to be asymptomatic, they can still spread it to others. Especially in regions not exposed to a specific variant. Which an athlete traveling internationally has a responsibility not to do. 

His decision may be fine for his health, but it’s selfish.


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## Hikari

chrstphr said:


> Brady said he already had Covid. So he wouldnt need the vaccine, he has natural immunity from the infection.
> 
> Chris


The CDC guidance still recommends getting vaccinated even if you have contracted COVID as it is unknown how long you remain immune. Vaccines provide better protection than natural immunity.









Frequently Asked Questions about COVID-19 Vaccination


FAQs about COVID-19 vaccines, vaccine cost, availability, and types.




www.cdc.gov





Mackenzie Brown also stated she was not vaccinated.

This is not a question of simply the health of the individual athlete, but also those around them. If infected, you become a vector.

I am sure the topic has now been exhausted as to why a professional athlete needs to be vaccinated during a major international competition whose organizers are trying to keep the participants safe as well as controlling any break out into the general population during a pandemic. Sadly, one British rowing athlete has tested positive after his trial and now needs to retire before his final. I am really hoping that the games can proceed without any more casualties.


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## TER

I wonder if the lack of spectators, just other archers and coaches in the stands, is part of the reason he is shouting? He wants to pump up with noise, but it's quiet so he has to make his own noise?

I agree with Stash the Covid stuff belongs in the A&E Cesspool. But gotta say, Brady and MacKenzie made really bad, selfish, and dumb choices to not get vaccinated. I'm surprised that the IOC did not require all athletes and everyone else involved in the Olympics be vaccinated.

Stan, I'm just a few years behind you as I move into my grumpy old man phase of life. We remember when there was an expectation of silence from others when archers were shooting out of respect. But now we are moving in an era of archery showmanship.


----------



## Ray.L

I like Kim Je Deok's energy, reminds me of Park Chaesoon. He's the youngest in the field, the top seed, and already a gold medalist. Incredible stuff.


----------



## chrstphr

Hikari said:


> The CDC guidance still recommends getting vaccinated even if you have contracted COVID as it is unknown how long you remain immune. Vaccines provide better protection than natural immunity.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Frequently Asked Questions about COVID-19 Vaccination
> 
> 
> FAQs about COVID-19 vaccines, vaccine cost, availability, and types.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.cdc.gov
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The CDC guidance still recommends getting vaccinated even if you have contracted COVID as it is unknown how long you remain immune. Vaccines provide better protection than natural immunity.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Frequently Asked Questions about COVID-19 Vaccination
> 
> 
> FAQs about COVID-19 vaccines, vaccine cost, availability, and types.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.cdc.gov



The CDC has no data or study to show that the killed virus vaccine gives better immunity than the natural infection. On the contrary, they are now considering a third booster because they dont know the immunity you get from the vaccine. Plus the CDC still recommends masks and recommended face coverings which did nothing to stop the spread of the virus unless it was a N95 mask. Bandanas and such do nothing to stop a virus infection.

there are actual studies that do show natural immunity is better than the vaccine.









No point vaccinating those who’ve had COVID-19: Cleveland Clinic study suggests


The study findings reveal that individuals with previous SARS-CoV-2 infection do not get additional benefits from vaccination, indicating that COVID-19 vaccines should be prioritized to individuals without prior infection. The study is currently available on the medRxiv* preprint server.




www.news-medical.net





and another opinion








If You Had Covid, Do You Need the Vaccine?


"We implore health care providers to explain the benefits and risks to their patients, in full, so that they can be fully informed in their decision-making. This can only happen if there is: 1) immediate suspension of coercive tactics, 2) physician supervision and orders for vaccination, 3)...




www.aier.org





Brady having covid already has given him immunity better than any of the vaccines. Mackenzie is a different story.

A killed virus vaccine isnt going to create more antibodies than an actual viral infection that propagates in the body.

Everyone always wants to make two groups, vaccinated and unvaccinated. But there are three groups. Vaccinated, unvaccinated and people who had covid before a vaccine.

The CDC push is for unvaccinated people to get a vaccine. There is also an olympic swimmer who had covid and didnt get the vaccine. 

but not going to argue over this non archery related topic. I have no problem with Brady not having a vaccine.

Chris


----------



## mdyan

why does everyone chip in their opinion then finish their statement by saying it’s not worth discussing here. That’s not how it works…


----------



## Hikari

I really don't want to get into the political discussions over vaccinations (I don't mind one over the science). Nor do I have the time or energy to counter misinformation. I would rather leave the thread to the Olympics. I am still disappointed by the athletes in such an important event.


----------



## Arcus

The article was about the performance of the USA team and which teams medaled. I see no need for the writer of the article to have included that bit of information.


----------



## Hikari

Arcus said:


> The article was about the performance of the USA team and which teams medaled. I see no need for the writer of the article to have included that bit of information.


The idea was that the Olympic committee was going to try their best to make sure the games would be safe. The Japanese are very concern about this. This has been big news around the event.


----------



## chrstphr

mdyan said:


> why does everyone chip in their opinion then finish their statement by saying it’s not worth discussing here. That’s not how it works…


i see no need to further derail the thread on a topic that isnt archery related. He said his peace, i said mine. Nothing more to debate and its not doing the thread any good except to take it further off topic. 

I agree, that info had nothing to do in the article and shouldnt have been included. Nothing but derisive to include it.

Now hopefully the USA womens' team getting a bye wont give them a disadvantage on the field. I am ready for some team rounds. 

Chris


----------



## ksarcher

With the Vaccine being administered to millions of people with little to no side effects there are few reasons to not get the Vaccine! For our athletes to not be vaccinated is very irresponsible and very selfish! I am extremely disappointed that Brady and Mac not being vaccinated. I have had covid19 and Vaccine and I am still concerned about the new stains! Unlike many of my neighbors I am concerned about my family and my neighbors. Quite frankly, if some of these idiots get the new strain and have a bad results... RIP!


----------



## DarkMuppet

Has anyone seen the Korean archery association (KAA) videos they've been making about their preparations for games? Kim Je Deok was/is absolutely having the time of his life! 
He's throwing everything he can into this experience that only a young, enthusiastic teenager can do! Whether he hasn't really grasped the magnitude of what he's achieved in getting onto the team in the first place, or what he did during qualification during his first major international (only the Olympics, hey... 😉) but he's just appears fearless. 
The shouting (annoying or not, but I'm pretty sure Ansan can't hear properly tonight.... ) is just pumped up passion and his way of staying focused on the task, but it's working for him. Good luck to him.


----------



## chrstphr

>--gt--> said:


> NBC needs better fact checkers…. They have screwed up identifying the shooter from Indonesia by saying he is a different guy than the Indonesian who beat Kim Woojin in Rio. Same guy, new name.


they also dont know that compound isnt an Olympic discipline yet. 










Chris


----------



## Seattlepop

^The photos of you and your wife are the best part of this thread. Nice.


----------



## Stash

How about we get back to the competition? 😄

Women’s team matches starting.

Italy through to the next round over GBR, will face KOR next.

Must be windy as hell. Both teams averaged only around 51 points an end. 3rd end was 46-45 for ITA.


----------



## Stash

Belarus over China, close match, will face Japan next round. Still low scores, averaging 52-53s.


----------



## chrstphr

wow, Chinese Taipei out against Germany. I thought they were the only ones to have a chance a beating the Korean ladies. Neither team shot that great. Wind must be quite a factor.

Chris


----------



## Stash

Germany defeats Taipei, will go up against Mexico.

Again, averaging only about 52 points per end.


----------



## Hikari

There is a tropical depression in the region. Hopefully it will not be heading along the coast of Japan. While the weather is the most stable at the end of July, weather is not really stable in the region this time of year.









earth :: a global map of wind, weather, and ocean conditions


See current wind, weather, ocean, and pollution conditions, as forecast by supercomputers, on an interactive animated map. Updated every three hours.




earth.nullschool.net





What is good for surfers is not good for archers...


----------



## Stash

Russia defeats Ukraine to go up against USA in the quarters. Next rounds start in just under 3 hours.

Average end score for all matches was 51.75. I think the single highest end was a 55. Difficult conditions - so many blues shot by world class archers.


----------



## Ray.L

Man, it looks brutally hot at the venue.


----------



## Hikari

In the 1964 Olympics, the Japanese delayed it until the fall because the heat in Tokyo in summer is brutal. Those games were in October. They really should have done that again.


----------



## Itsjtome

Stash said:


> What’s with the yelling by Kim JD? No rule against it, I guess, but I’d find it annoying as hell if I was near him.


You’ll see all of the male shooters shouting like that in highschool archery competitions in Korea, it can definitely mess with an opponent’s mental game if they aren’t used to shouting of this sort. I think it makes the matches more lively/exciting


----------



## Stash

I think “messing with the opponent’s mental game” is somehow not in keeping with the spirit of Archery competition.


----------



## Itsjtome

Stash said:


> I think “messing with the opponent’s mental game” is somehow not in keeping with the spirit of Archery competition.


The intention of the yelling is not to mess with opponent’s, should have clarified that they just encourage each other like this in Korea. I think the shouting is fine as long as it’s not during the shots of the opposing archers. All I meant was that opponents could be thrown off by this kind of encouragement, I phrased it a bit odd, which is on me.


----------



## woof156

And they fixed the sound.... yeah


----------



## Stash

chrstphr said:


> I have a strange feeling that this Olympics are going to be the upset Olympics and the usual winners arent going to be a lock. I have a feeling Korea women may fall to Chinese Taipei and lose the lock on the women's Olympic gold. They may not win the individual gold either.
> ...
> just my prediction...
> 
> Chris





Boomer2094 said:


> Chris,
> 
> As much as I enjoy watching Koreans shoot, I sure hope you are right...
> 
> Koreans had their time on the podium, time for other nation's archer to be on the podium for a change.


Good call, guys. 😄

Korean women still clearly, clearly far above every other team on the field.


----------



## strud

What are your opinions on Unruh's wayward 2 against Russia? She knew it was a dud so I assume not a gust of wind.... She nearly took out her team mate with the long rod !!


----------



## Draven Olary

I have the feeling the koreans are wind whisperers. Italy was all over the place due to it, the koreans are in gold 99% of the time.


----------



## Skeptix_907

Stash said:


> And fist-bumping and high 5s. 😄


Uhh... What? 🤨


----------



## woof156

Well the American women are heading home to get ready for Yankton.. not a pretty match at all--
I think the Korean women are headed for gold-- they seem to toy with opponents then crush them in the end. I am thinking it may be Russia and Korea but then I am not putting any money on it. I am watching reruns so the end is already happened in time and space

BTW for me I would hate to have a coach talking while I was shooting telling me to be steady strong shot right down the middle-- yeah coach I know that already and now just another voice to shut out.


----------



## Draven Olary

I had the same feeling, but maybe this is what that archer needs. The wind was playing trivia with the archers. Mackenzie said right 8-9 low and it came out a 6 far right. On the other hand for Koreans all was working perfect.


----------



## Skeptix_907

chrstphr said:


> The CDC has no data or study to show that the killed virus vaccine gives better immunity than the natural infection.


I'm going to ignore why you're focused on "killed virus vaccine", but that's completely untrue. You actually couldn't be more wrong. Some viruses confer natural immunity that is stronger than the accompanying vaccine (like mumps), while others do not. COVID-19 is in the latter category, as are other coronaviruses like MERS.

And the CDC hasn't said we need boosters right now. The companies producing the vaccine have suggested we should start rolling them out because obviously they have a financial incentive in doing so.

Here's the relevant research on vaccine vs natural immunity.









Antibodies elicited by mRNA-1273 vaccination bind more broadly to the receptor binding domain than do those from SARS-CoV-2 infection - PubMed


The emergence of severe acute respiratory syndrome coronavirus 2 (SARS-CoV-2) variants with mutations in key antibody epitopes has raised concerns that antigenic evolution could erode adaptive immunity elicited by prior infection or vaccination. The susceptibility of immunity to viral evolution...




pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov












Why COVID-19 Vaccines Offer Better Protection Than Infection | Johns Hopkins Bloomberg School of Public Health


Vaccination offers longer, stronger immunity, says virologist Sabra Klein.




www.jhsph.edu








__





Divergent trajectories of antiviral memory after SARS-Cov-2 infection


Severe acute respiratory syndrome coronavirus 2 (SARS-CoV-2) infection is normally controlled by effective host immunity including innate, humoral and cellular responses. However, the trajectories and correlates of acquired immunity, and the capacit...




www.researchsquare.com












Immune Response From mRNA COVID-19 Vaccines Is More Robust Than Natural Infection


Antibody levels induced by mRNA COVID-19 vaccines are much higher than those induced by natural infection and confer cross-reactivity that could be effective against new variants, a new study from the University of California, Irvine, found.



www.contagionlive.com












Immunological memory to SARS-CoV-2 assessed for up to 8 months after infection


Immune memory to SARS-CoV-2 is highly variable, but protection against reinfection and subsequent disease seems possible in most cases.




science.sciencemag.org


----------



## Arcus

Can we please stick to the thread topic? Start another thread for the vaccine subject, please.


----------



## mgx1138

chrstphr said:


> may not win the individual gold either.
> 
> There are a lot of archery blockers this time around and with the year off from covid, i think its anyone's ballgame. I think we will see new


----------



## mgx1138

Is it my imagination or have the match scores in the Olympics been really low? Seems like everyone is shooting crappy scores. Is the venue (wind) just really difficult in Tokyo?


----------



## aavaaz

Arcus said:


> Can we please stick to the thread topic? Start another thread for the vaccine subject, please.


Of course, but stupidity should be nipped in the bud.


----------



## Stash

woof156 said:


> Well the American women are heading home to get ready for Yankton.. not a pretty match at all--


What, they’re not going to shoot the individual matches?



> I think the Korean women are headed for gold-- they seem to toy with opponents then crush them in the end. I am thinking it may be Russia and Korea but then I am not putting any money on it. I am watching reruns so the end is already happened in time and space


Good prediction, especially since the team event ended hours ago... 😄


----------



## Stash

strud said:


> What are your opinions on Unruh's wayward 2 against Russia? She knew it was a dud so I assume not a gust of wind.... She nearly took out her team mate with the long rod !!


No idea, but I suspect that she may be occasionally reminded of it for, like, the rest of her archery career. 😄


----------



## woof156

Stash said:


> What, they’re not going to shoot the individual matches?
> 
> 
> Good prediction, especially since the team event ended hours ago... 😄


Yeah but I had only watched the reruns of the semifinals before the medal rounds were established and no I did not read the results first first just looked at how the teams were shooting,..


----------



## MrPillow

I don’t know a ton about the Olympic archery circuit but I had at least hoped the US teams would be a bit more, uh, competitive? 🤔


----------



## aavaaz

Skeptix_907 said:


> I tried to search scientific literature on this but found nothing.
> 
> It sounds like another broscience fad like cupping was a few years back. No real evidence behind it.


Example: Ever heard of War cry? Increases focus, gets rid of jitters and intimidates the enemy. Its been practiced for ever. You can find plenty on peer reviewed literature on Peak Performance if you are a member of a university library like the Miami University Oxford, OH, Miami University Libraries , Plos, sciencedirect etc. and no, "googling it" won't be enough.

Regards.


----------



## FerrumVeritas

MrPillow said:


> I don’t know a ton about the Olympic archery circuit but I had at least hoped the US teams would be a bit more, uh, competitive? 🤔


They’ve been choking a lot


----------



## Stash

aavaaz said:


> Example: Ever heard of War cry? Increases focus, gets rid of jitters and intimidates the enemy. Its been practiced for ever. You can find plenty on peer reviewed literature on Peak Performance if you are a member of a university library like the Miami University Oxford, OH, Miami University Libraries , Plos, sciencedirect etc. and no, "googling it" won't be enough.
> 
> Regards.


It’s appropriate for adversarial type sports, where what you do can and is expected to affect the other guy’s/team’s game. Team sports, combat sports, even stuff like tennis.

But IMO it has zero place in individual “precision” sports where your performance stands by itself and you compare your score to others’. Archery, golf, bowling, shooting. You want to intimidate your opponent? Shoot a string of 10s.

What’s next - the New Zealand archers doing a Haka before a match?


----------



## Hikari

Stash said:


> What’s next - the New Zealand archers doing a Haka before a match?


Actually, that would be cool._ (During a match, not so much...)_


----------



## Ray.L

Yeah that'd be pretty rad.


----------



## chrstphr

Stash said:


> Good call, guys. 😄
> 
> Korean women still clearly, clearly far above every other team on the field.


yes, they seem to have no trouble with the wind. Though in the mixed team matches, Korea wasnt as strong and left several openings but the opponents couldnt capitalize on it. 

Chris


----------



## Stash

chrstphr said:


> ......Though in the mixed team matches, Korea wasnt as strong and left several openings but the opponents couldnt capitalize on it.


Probably distracted by all the yelling.....


----------



## Vittorio

I have been one of those expecting some other team to challenge Korean girs, specifically China and Taipei, but clearly, their Idea of hiding for almost 2 years was not so bright.
One thing very much undervalued in the practical performance of the teams is the role of the coach on the field. The Korean (lady) coach has been clearly a direct part of the correct shooting of the team with concrete comments for their "bad" shots, while for instance what happened to Casey (3x consecutive absurd 6 to the right) needed for sure someone intervening in the proper way immediately after the first one. I have personally managed tens of times teams and mixed teams on the shooting field, and my most important task was ever to inform the archer if the mistake was by the wind or by his/her shot, not to mention to give immediate indications to the archer about how to fix by the next shot (counter aiming and were, or moving sight, in case of wind guts)
Seen some teams in Tokio with coaches acting like they had to do, others doing simpy nothing at all ...
Curiosities about coaches: Butuzova (Germany) and Esheev ( ROC) have been members of the same URSS team in the old days. Esheev is President of Russian Federation and WA Vice president, first time in the role of coach. Alberto Zagami (GBR) has been a member of The Italian Team getting Bronze medal in 2013 Mediterranean Games shooting with Michele and Mauro. Marc Dellembach (GER) has been coach of France for many years and was behind Valladont in Rio for the Gold Medal Match. Finally, Chung Jae Hun (KOR) is at his first time as national coach, being one the most incredible Korean archers for his very long career that includes being Wold Target Champion, World Indoor Champion, Bronze medalist in Barcellona and multiple times winner of Nimes indoor tournament.


----------



## monterey

The video director needs a few pointers on how to cover archery.
In the women's team final, the camera feed for CBC seems to spend about 80% of the shots zoomed in on the archer's face. You can't see if their sight is steady, if they are fighting the wind, shooting through the clicker or torquing the bow. It would have been useful to see that during the matches where everyone was having wild left and right hits.


----------



## iceman747

Vittorio said:


> I have been one of those expecting some other team to challenge Korean girs, specifically China and Taipei, but clearly, their Idea of hiding for almost 2 years was not so bright.
> One thing very much undervalued in the practical performance of the teams is the role of the coach on the field. The Korean (lady) coach has been clearly a direct part of the correct shooting of the team with concrete comments for their "bad" shots, while for instance what happened to Kasey (3x consecutive absurd 6 to the right) needed for sure someone intervening in the proper way immediately after the first one. I have personally managed tens of times teams and mixed teams on the shooting field, and my most important task was ever to inform the archer if the mistake was by the wind or by his/her shot, not to mention to give immediate indications to the archer about how to fix by the next shot (counter aiming and were, or moving sight, in case of wind guts)
> Seen some teams in Tokio with coaches acting like they had to do, others doing simpy nothing at all ...
> Curiosities about coaches: Butuzova (Germany) and Esheev ( ROC) have been members of the same URSS team in the old days. Esheev is President of Russian Federation and WA Vice president, first time in the role of coach. Alberto Zagami (GBR) has been a member of The Italian Team getting Bronze medal in 2013 Mediterranean Games shooting with Michele and Mauro. Marc Dellembach (GER) has been coach of France for many years and was behind Valladont in Rio for the Gold Medal Match. Finally, Chung Jae Hun (KOR) is at his first time as national coach, being one the most incredible Korean archers for his very long career that includes being Wold Target Champion, World Indoor Champion, Bronze medalist in Barcellona and multiple times winner of Nimes indoor tournament.


Who was the coach on the spotting scope? Don't look like Coach Lee?


----------



## Draven Olary

Vittorio you are right. Casie shot 3 6s and just the last time she moved sight a lot of turns and she got a 9. I doubt it was a coach indication unfortunately


----------



## >--gt-->

Casey. 

Not Kasie or Kasey. 

Might as well get it right because this certainly won’t be the last you will see of her.


----------



## Draven Olary

True - correction made. I hope so.


----------



## chrstphr

iceman747 said:


> Who was the coach on the spotting scope? Don't look like Coach Lee?


video stream said his name was John Webster. I assume it is Chris Webster? 

Though its a big secret who is the women's team coach. USA archery still hasnt announced that Songi Woo was fired a long time ago and is no longer the women's team coach.

Chris


----------



## Glenredhawk

I think it's time for the USOC review the Archery program. We seem to be kicking the same can down the road expecting good results. I'm still hoping for some good results but USA has not done a good job since Kisik Lee has been here, time to move on from him. I thought Songi Woo would help change the program but knew there would be some head's clashing. Maybe I'm wrong?


----------



## TheElBow

Vittorio said:


> ... One thing very much undervalued in the practical performance of the teams is the role of the coach on the field. ...


Really? When I think back to London 2012, I remember it very differently. That was probably the big exception, right?


----------



## Stash

Men’s team rounds starting soon. As far as I can find, weather is already pretty hot and humid, and windy with gusts to 30 kph (around 20 mph for you non-metric types). Should be interesting. 

First up in 15 minutes, India vs Glorious Nation of Kazakhstan. 
USA vs France second match, just before 9 Eastern time.


----------



## Ray.L

I wonder if there'll be an upset, or will everyone on the Korean side of the finals bracket will be fighting for bronze. US will have to face Korea in the quarters if they defeat France.


----------



## Stash

Apparently the individual eliminations scheduled for tomorrow have been rescheduled for later. Must be something to do with that typhoon.


----------



## Stash

India beats Kazakhstan, and will go on to lose to Korea in the next round.


----------



## limbwalker

No 3-person Olympic team should rely on the comments of a "coach' to correct real-time aiming errors. Fact is, you have the THREE best subject-matter-experts of a particular nation all at the same place at the same time. If they haven't figured out how to aim or help one another aim at that point, that's not on the coach, it's on them as a team.


----------



## Stash

French team having a problem. Second end, anchor shooter had a 6 and a 0. Wonder what happened.

USA advances, closes with a 58, pretty easy match.


----------



## PKayser

USA takes down France in straight sets. They shot a 58 in the final set. Pretty impressive. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## FerrumVeritas

The 0 was because he ran out of time. It finally bit him.


----------



## RMBX10

Stash said:


> French team having a problem. Second end, anchor shooter had a 6 and a 0. Wonder what happened.
> 
> USA advances, closes with a 58, pretty easy match.


 France ran out of time in the second set. Third shooter got to full draw as time expired.


----------



## woof156

Men's team looked great guess they hired Squeaky Fromme to sit in the stands tho-- didn't know she was still round.--competing with the Koreans I guess.


----------



## Stash

Thanks for the info. No video here. 🙁 Just going by scores.


----------



## Ray.L

Stash said:


> Thanks for the info. No video here. 🙁 Just going by scores.


It's being streamed https://www.cbc.ca/player/play/1918817347606


----------



## Stash

Oh, bugger, I DO have video. Dammit, missed the match. 

Yeah, Ray, I found it just as you posted. Thanks.


----------



## FerrumVeritas

Is Brady always so vocal about where his teammates should be aiming?


----------



## Stash

That British archer Woodgate - his arm shakes like a dog trying to crap out a peach pit. 
But, whatever works. GBR through.


----------



## FerrumVeritas

AUS/Taipei was fun to watch. When the Taiwanese men found their groove, they were impressive.


----------



## Stash

Close match, down to one point in the tiebreaker.

Who’s back in 2 1/2 hours? 😄


----------



## strud

Stash said:


> Close match, down to one point in the tiebreaker.
> 
> Who’s back in 2 1/2 hours? 😄


Timezone is perfect here in Aus


----------



## aavaaz

The trio are back to shooting like themselves. Very proud of them especially Jack.


----------



## aavaaz

Glenredhawk said:


> I think it's time for the USOC review the Archery program. We seem to be kicking the same can down the road expecting good results. I'm still hoping for some good results but USA has not done a good job since Kisik Lee has been here, time to move on from him. I thought Songi Woo would help change the program but knew there would be some head's clashing. Maybe I'm wrong?


You are and you don’t know what you are talking about.


----------



## FerrumVeritas

aavaaz said:


> You are and you don’t know what you are talking about.


Maybe on the men's side. But the women's team has what, 1/3 archers coached by him. And it's the first time we've qualified a team in forever (who didn't do well). Is that all one person's fault? Of course not. But it shows that Lee isn't building half of the program.


----------



## FerrumVeritas

The way India are shooting would beat nearly anyone else on the field...except Korea.


----------



## Ray.L

FerrumVeritas said:


> The way India are shooting would bear nearly anyone else on the field...except Korea.


If they were on the other side of the finals bracket, they'd probably find a place on the podium. Unfortunate to need to meet Korea first, who are definitely in top form. How crazy would it be to have Kim JD be a triple gold medal winner at 17.


----------



## FerrumVeritas

I almost feel bad for saying it, but Brady put himself in a position of expectation so he deserves the criticism as much as praise: dude's choking. Anyone still "believe?"


----------



## [email protected]

The US team may want to consider painting the green grass at the Chula Vista training center blue…..perhaps that would explain what I just watched. Nice shooting Japan!


----------



## Ray.L

Oh man, what a nail-biter. An incredible match between Japan and Korea.


----------



## Vittorio

TheElBow said:


> Really? When I think back to London 2012, I remember it very differently. That was probably the big exception, right?


Did I say that the coach can only be the one behind the scope? When you don't have a real coach behind the scope, you should only relay to information from each other on the line and from the big screen, but this is limited to each archer's feeling after each shot, and it can be wrong, while the two other archers can simply misunderstand what happened as they are mainly thinking to results and their personal next arrow, don't have a vision of the previous arrow flight and often are not trained to analyze other's mistakes. Some few archers can act as coach inside the team, but they are very very few.


----------



## chrstphr

Japan shooting great, almost knocking off Korea. What a match. 


Chris


----------



## Vittorio

limbwalker said:


> No 3-person Olympic team should rely on the comments of a "coach' to correct real-time aiming errors. Fact is, you have the THREE best subject-matter-experts of a particular nation all at the same place at the same time. If they haven't figured out how to aim or help one another aim at that point, that's not on the coach, it's on them as a team.


This is happening in a dream world only, the majority of international level archers are NOT coaches, don't mind or understand what others in the team are doing as they are all shooting like individuals. A good coach is many times the +1 in the team, few times the team has an "internal coach", more many times there is someone behind the scope just to fill the box, no "coach on the line" and a big weakness created in a theoretically strong team.
Then we can start a discussion about why some teams chose real coaches also having a great past and experience as archers, other choose great archers of the past without real experience as coaches, and other use anyone available at that moment.
P.S.Korean coaches for the Korean team have a 2 year rotation assignement, are chosen between experienced top coaches of the business teams that are almost all former great archers. What do you think ìt will happen to the archer not following coach's indications in competition?


----------



## Itsjtome

chrstphr said:


> Japan shooting great, almost knocking off Korea. What a match.
> 
> 
> Chris


it’s probably the shouting


----------



## Metropolis

Done. 3 gold medals in the 3 teams events for Korea...


----------



## DarkMuppet

Top tip to win an Olympic team medal....

Stay home and practice. All 3 medallists skipped the World Cup this year. 😄


----------



## cerelestecerele

Anyone know how the speeds are being measured? They show up after most shots, at least when streaming on Eurosport. It looks like they've got what might be radar chronographs about 5m from the shooting line but those could easily be cameras and the chronograph is somewhere else, or they're using something to automatically pick up the shot and hit sounds to get an average instead of instantaneous speed. I've mostly been watching it muted so apologise if it's been covered in the voiceover.


----------



## Doughman

Congratulation to Taiwan (Chinese Taipei) took silver for the men team.


----------



## woof156

Wow just watched the reruns- Korea is awesome, not sure I have ever seen them shoot anything but Win and Win but the maybe I just didn't notice. Inconsistency seems to be the American plague shoot well one day bolix the next too bad.


----------



## limbwalker

Vittorio said:


> This is happening in a dream world only, the majority of international level archers are NOT coaches, don't mind or understand what others in the team are doing as they are all shooting like individuals. A good coach is many times the +1 in the team, few times the team has an "internal coach", more many times there is someone behind the scope just to fill the box, no "coach on the line" and a big weakness created in a theoretically strong team.
> Then we can start a discussion about why some teams chose real coaches also having a great past and experience as archers, other choose great archers of the past without real experience as coaches, and other use anyone available at that moment.
> P.S.Korean coaches for the Korean team have a 2 year rotation assignement, are chosen between experienced top coaches of the business teams that are almost all former great archers. What do you think ìt will happen to the archer not following coach's indications in competition?


Yes, it is a dream world to expect athletes who have been spoon-fed information and direction their entire competitive life to be in a position to make decisions between themselves. This is the problem with teams of archers who rely so much on their coaches. 

I can tell you that Butch, Vic and I all had plenty of time before the team event to learn each other's shot and trust each other's advice. If a team that was literally RAISED in the sport by one individual doesn't have that skill set, that's on the coach for not making them develop it. 

I trusted Butch and Vic's advice on the shooting line a lot more than I did Frank's. Not a knock on Frank, but the three of us shot with and against one another a LOT more than Frank watched us shoot, and all three of us could watch the arrow flight and the flags and figure out what was going on, in real time. But as a team we had a combined age of 106 years, so our situation may be slightly unusual but it shouldn't be unique.

One of my biggest criticisms of the American coaching style/culture is that we spoon feed information - particularly to our female athletes, as if they cannot develop the skills to sort their own problems in real time. Some coaches don't want to accept the fact that their athlete, if trained properly and given enough room, will at some point not really need them anymore. That's more than a lot of coaches can deal with. But the same can be said for a lot of parents that need their kids to need them, sadly.


----------



## FerrumVeritas

Another 4th for Sjef. That’s impressive, but it’s got to sting a little. 

Limbwalker, that reminds me of a local archer who looks back to her dad after every single shot for advice. She’s not a bad archer, but it does kind of feel like she’s only half of one.


----------



## limbwalker

FerrumVeritas said:


> Another 4th for Sjef. That’s impressive, but it’s got to sting a little.
> 
> Limbwalker, that reminds me of a local archer who looks back to her dad after every single shot for advice. She’s not a bad archer, but it does kind of feel like she’s only half of one.


I know Olympic medalists that still do this, they are so dependent on their coach (and vise-versa).

When I was coaching, there were a number of times that "certain" parents went nuts if I wasn't standing right behind "their precious" at Nationals. No matter how many times I would explain to those parents that I had trained them to take care of their own business on the line, the parents were so nervous they couldn't be convinced. More than once, I'd go stand behind an archer and between ends I'd tell them to just act like I wasn't there because I was trying to make things more tolerable for the other parents beneath the canopy. LOL So we'd talk about what we were going to have for supper that night or whatever.

The only time I ever remember making sure I was behind an archer was during the gold medal match at Nationals because she asked me to watch her arrows and confirm her wind calls. She didn't need me. Every call she made was the right one, which was probably why she won the event in the first place. Meanwhile, her opponent and her "coach" were busy disagreeing about the wind. What should have been a very close match (actually the other girl was the better of the two archers) wasn't even close because that coach hadn't prepared her to be self-sufficient.

I always told my archers (and their parents) that I did my job when they got to the point they didn't need me anymore and they could coach themselves. The Late (and great) Tom Barker and I talked about this all the time - he had the same philosophy.


----------



## limbwalker

DarkMuppet said:


> Top tip to win an Olympic team medal....
> 
> Stay home and practice. All 3 medallists skipped the World Cup this year. 😄


Doesn't hurt to regularly train with and compete against the best in the world either. 

Maybe when USArchery finally gets serious, they will make sure our US teams spend more time competing in Asia than they do Europe.


----------



## Stash

limbwalker said:


> Doesn't hurt to regularly train with and compete against the best in the world either.
> 
> Maybe when USArchery finally gets serious, they will make sure our US teams spend more time competing in Asia than they do Europe.


I would think it would be more valuable to have them train to ignore entirely where in the world they are and who’s standing on the line next to them, and just learn to be more confident in their form and ability to hit that 10 ring that’s directly in front of them regardless of the environment.

Easier said than done, though.

Is hypnosis legal under WA rules? 😄


----------



## limbwalker

Stash said:


> I would think it would be more valuable to have them train to ignore entirely where in the world they are and who’s standing on the line next to them, and just learn to be more confident in their form and ability to hit that 10 ring that’s directly in front of them regardless of the environment.
> 
> Easier said than done, though.
> 
> Is hypnosis legal under WA rules? 😄


Your reply made me think about Mike Tyson's famous (infamous?) quote - 

"Everyone has a plan until they get punched in the mouth." 

If you want to be the best, you have to learn how to beat the best. They aren't doing that at world cup events or Olympic qualifiers in Europe. (Sorry Europe). 

It creates unrealistic expectations both in the athletes and within and around USArchery, which is why you see the stunned and confused looks on their faces followed by months or years of infighting among those in leadership and support roles for USArchery.


----------



## FerrumVeritas

I’ve thought that creating a 70m multi-directional wind tunnel range with adjustable lighting would be a way for the northern US to actually have time to practice outdoors. Being able to engage an extra third of the population would probably help.


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## Stash

Well, John, nobody’s punching us in the face in archery. (Well, there was that one time, but...)

I’ve always felt that plans or tactics had little business in precision sports like archery, and your opponent or venue were things to be ignored when on the line. There should be just you, the target, and the weather, and I believe that mental training should be geared towards being able to blank that out and, as you are find of saying, archers should have the goal of shooting their average.


----------



## FerrumVeritas

The compound shooters punch themselves!


----------



## DarkMuppet

limbwalker said:


> It creates unrealistic expectations both in the athletes and within and around USArchery, which is why you see the stunned and confused looks on their faces followed by months or years of infighting among those in leadership and support roles for USArchery.


I don't think US archery is going to be the only team that will be answering some difficult questions when they get home, France made the dubious decision to give Valladont the mixed team place weeks before the event. His shocking performance in the qualification round should have set alarm bells ringing and management should have changed him out and gone with the highest scorer, Pierre Phlion. 

Maybe they'll buy him a watch when he gets home?


----------



## limbwalker

Stash said:


> Well, John, nobody’s punching us in the face in archery. (Well, there was that one time, but...)
> 
> I’ve always felt that plans or tactics had little business in precision sports like archery, and your opponent or venue were things to be ignored when on the line. There should be just you, the target, and the weather, and I believe that mental training should be geared towards being able to blank that out and, as you are find of saying, archers should have the goal of shooting their average.


Oh, but they are. When a team or individual finds themselves 0-4 with no clear idea of what's going wrong, that's the same thing.

Said another way, our teams need more experience competing with and against better teams. And world cup wins mean absolutely nothing when it comes to the Olympics - and the Koreans (and a few other nations) know that. But world cup wins look good in front of parents, fans and sponsors, so they keep sending archers to those events when IMO they should be finding events in Asia where there is better competition.

Yes, getting "punched in the mouth" is a good thing from time to time. Preferably ahead of the one event you have the responsibility to prepare for every four years.


----------



## limbwalker

DarkMuppet said:


> I don't think US archery is going to be the only team that will be answering some difficult questions when they get home, France made the dubious decision to give Valladont the mixed team place weeks before the event. His shocking performance in the qualification round should have set alarm bells ringing and management should have changed him out and gone with the highest scorer, Pierre Phlion.
> 
> Maybe they'll buy him a watch when he gets home?


To be fair, it wouldn't hurt if they stopped holding these in wind bowls where the event becomes a crap shoot. Apparently we learned nothing from Athens.


----------



## aavaaz

USAA administration is full of Dinosaurs and protecting their self interests,,,and the board room needs to be cleaned up of some members who have a clear conflict of interest which has rotten the organization to the core. We have one of the greatest coaches in the world but he can't pull a rabbit out of an empty hat on Que, while both his hands are tied to his back all the time.
As far as the athletes go, their mental game fell apart. And I knew it as soon as Brady, (who is my hero, my mentor and my coach and has inspired me the most) said just before the Tokyo team matches, "I don't care if I win a medal because I will still go back to a beautiful boy and a happy wife", which is admirable.......... but the choice of those words told me that he had lost confidence and already self doubt had cheeped in. Proof is in the pudding.

This is a very sad day for me. Our team members are not only the ones I shoot with but they are also my friends and Brady is and always will be my champion. That is not the issue. I truly wish I was there and could somehow talk to him and bring his mental game back. He just was not the Brady I talked to in Chula Vista last month. When they shot well against strong but unlucky France, I was hopeful that their game was back. We were the favorites going in and had a very strong mens' team. That's why it hurts so much. Having said that, I'm still proud of them, but sad. All my hopes are now on Brady medaling in individuals.....and yes Jack too.


----------



## FerrumVeritas

Given how things have been going, I’d rather see Jack medal. He was the one holding the team together.


----------



## limbwalker

aavaaz said:


> USAA administration is full of Dinosaurs and protecting their self interests,,,and the board room needs to be cleaned up of some members who have a clear conflict of interest which has rotten the organization to the core. We have One of the greatest *MEN'S* coaches in the world but he can't pull a rabbit out of an empty hat on Que, while both his hands are tied to his back all the time.
> As far as the athletes go, their mental game fell apart. And I knew it as soon as Brady, (who is my hero, my mentor and my coach and has inspires me the most) said just before the Tokyo team matches, "I don't care if I win a medal because I will still go back to a beautiful boy and a happy wife", which is admirable.......... but the choice of those words told me that he had lost confidence and already self doubt had cheeped in. Proof is in the pudding.
> 
> This is a very sad day for me. Our team members are not only the ones I shoot with but they are also my friends and Brady is and always will be my champion. That is not the issue. I truly wish I was there and could somehow talk to him and bring his mental game back. He just was not the Brady I talked to in Chula Vista last month. When they shot well against strong but unlucky France, I was hopeful that their game was back. We were the favorites going in and had a very strong men's team. That's why it hurts so much. Having said that, I'm still proud of them, but sad. All my hopes are now on Brady medaling in individuals.....


fixed it for you

And at the risk of repeating myself, I think the venue is as much the culprit here as anything. When elite athletes do not know how to perform to get the results they are used to, or if they are performing well and seeing results they are not used to seeing, every single one of them are going to have confusion and frustration creep in. Casey's face said it all after her 2nd six in the team round. 

Our athletes were prepared to shoot well. They were not prepared to win while shooting poorly, which is just as important a skill to have.

Put elite swimmers in the ocean or a river and see what happens. That's essentially what's going on in that venue.


----------



## Vittorio

DarkMuppet said:


> I don't think US archery is going to be the only team that will be answering some difficult questions when they get home, France made the dubious decision to give Valladont the mixed team place weeks before the event. His shocking performance in the qualification round should have set alarm bells ringing and management should have changed him out and gone with the highest scorer, Pierre Phlion.
> 
> Maybe they'll buy him a watch when he gets home?


Things are not ever what they look from outside.. In the high-level world, the one already third gets assigned the difficult task of adjusting the team score to get a good placement in the grid, and 12th place was perfect. Don't say he intentionally shot a 49 and a 46, but who knows? And third Bielorus girl shooting a 2 in the last end to have the team finish 12th? Who knows. 
JC ever had a terrible pressure in the team event while time left to him went down and down to zero and a null arrow without anyone counting the time for him, this is what was not working , at all, in the French team.


----------



## limbwalker

Vittorio said:


> Things are not ever what they look from outside.. In the high-level world, the one already third gets assigned the difficult task of adjusting the team score to get a good placement in the grid, and 12th place was perfect. Don't say he intentionally shot a 49 and a 46, but who knows? And third Bielorus girl shooting a 2 in the last end to have the team finish 12th? Who knows.
> JC ever had a terrible pressure in the team event while time left to him went down and down to zero and a null arrow without anyone counting the time for him, this is what was not working , at all, in the French team.


I can think of one example where all three team members shared that duty.


----------



## Stash

Intentionally shooting badly to lower your team score for a more “optimum” place in the rankings? This seriously happens?

If every mid-range team did that, it would be a race to the bottom. I can’t see how anyone could plan and execute this during actual shooting. What happens? Some accountant with a computer madly entering all the scores, and finds with 20 seconds to go that his guy needs to shoot a 7 on his last arrow to put his team into 12th, but a 4 puts them in 16th or a 10 puts them 8th in the bracket with the top seed? How does he get the message to the archer on the line?

Very risky, could easily backfire, and it would be self-destructive for the poor individual tasked to “help” the team at his/her own expense.


----------



## woof156

limbwalker said:


> fixed it for you
> 
> Put elite swimmers in the ocean or a river and see what happens. That's essentially what's going on in that venue.


I think your point about winning is good- when our teams have won it was good shooting from the get go-- when they muff the first set or two they fall apart like a cheap watch--as viewed from someone who would never ever get that far-still compare them to the winners and you can see the ability to deal with pressure. In all their matches save the preliminary win they just didn't seem to be in the game??????? For us metal counters thank goodness for the swim team, the track team (I hope) and the gymnasts...The 400 yd mens relay was a spectacular example of doing what you have to do to your very limit when it counts.


----------



## >--gt-->

Stash said:


> Intentionally shooting badly to lower your team score for a more “optimum” place in the rankings? This seriously happens?
> 
> If every mid-range team did that, it would be a race to the bottom. I can’t see how anyone could plan and execute this. Very risky, could easily backfire, and it would be self-destructive for the poor individual tasked to “help” the team at his/her own expense.


To be fair, Stan, I haven’t seen any team actually, deliberately, try that maneuver since the ‘96 Games. Even KOR doesn’t have the resources on-site to game that stuff in real-time with a predictable outcome, so no serious contenders even make the attempt anymore.


----------



## Stash

Yeah. I found it hard to believe.


----------



## woof156

aavaaz said:


> As far as the athletes go, their mental game fell apart. And I knew it as soon as Brady, (who is my hero, my mentor and my coach and has inspired me the most) said just before the Tokyo team matches, "I don't care if I win a medal because I will still go back to a beautiful boy and a happy wife", which is admirable.......... but the choice of those words told me that he had lost confidence and already self doubt had cheeped in. Proof is in the pudding.
> .


Brady is a great archer and the Olympics will not take that away-- but good point -- when a very competitive person like Brady starts talking about his home and wife he is trying to put his future loses -at that point- into prospective and while he is correct about the importance of that statement it seems to show a mental divorce from competition and his head elsewhere. No one failed cause they didn't try.. just their bad days were at the wrong time and they didn't seem to know how to fix it as it happened.


----------



## Boomer2094

limbwalker said:


> fixed it for you
> 
> And at the risk of repeating myself, I think the venue is as much the culprit here as anything. When elite athletes do not know how to perform to get the results they are used to, or if they are performing well and seeing results they are not used to seeing, every single one of them are going to have confusion and frustration creep in. Casey's face said it all after her 2nd six in the team round.
> 
> Our athletes were prepared to shoot well. They were not prepared to win while shooting poorly, which is just as important a skill to have.
> 
> Put elite swimmers in the ocean or a river and see what happens. That's essentially what's going on in that venue.


Do they not practice in shooting the wind? Knowing that venue is going to be windy, it would behoove them to practice in Wind so they know how to deal with changing winds...

They knew where they will be competing at, it shouldn't be a surprise to them. Is Casey that ill-prepared for changing wind conditions, and didn't Brady tell her where she need to aim to compensate?

The US mix team match was very frustrating to watch. and I honestly don't know if I would just blame the location for it.

Would you mind sharing some insight in this?


----------



## ahw

>--gt--> said:


> To be fair, Stan, I haven’t seen any team actually, deliberately, try that maneuver since the ‘96 Games. Even KOR doesn’t have the resources on-site to game that stuff in real-time with a predictable outcome, so no serious contenders even make the attempt anymore.


Who did what now? Which country tried that?


----------



## Vittorio

>--gt--> said:


> To be fair, Stan, I haven’t seen any team actually, deliberately, try that maneuver since the ‘96 Games. Even KOR doesn’t have the resources on-site to game that stuff in real-time with a predictable outcome, so no serious contenders even make the attempt anymore.


It is a normal part of the game in many teams sports, at all levels, from basket to volley and football, why not in archery?
With 12 teams only into the grid and Ianseo giving you real time projections of the matches to come, for sure it is much better a 12th place than a 4th-5th one or, worse, a 9th or 8th one if Korea is on top as usual. There is a kind of mental reserve in talking openly about this, but any serious team has to deal with this decision, apart from ... Korea. Sometimes they do, sometimes they don't, but for sure the 12th place is the only one easily reachable by any team ...


----------



## >--gt-->

Boomer2094 said:


> Do they not practice in shooting the wind? Knowing that venue is going to be windy, it would behoove them to practice in Wind so they know how to deal with changing winds...
> 
> They knew where they will be competing at, it shouldn't be a surprise to them. Is Casey that ill-prepared for changing wind conditions, and didn't Brady tell her where she need to aim to compensate?
> 
> The US mix team match was very frustrating to watch. and I honestly don't know if I would just blame the location for it.
> 
> Would you mind sharing some insight in this?


I’ve shot and announced in that venue (Yumenoshima) in several events over the years. Every venue in Japan is windy. That one somewhat less than others there.

KOR built a windy venue to prepare. Chula Vista is windy. Weather is a part of the sport - the winners, including Ms. Park (with, in my personal opinion, the “true” Olympic Record, set at Athens- right next to a freaking AIR FORCE BASE) didn’t falter because of weather.


----------



## Stash

Vittorio said:


> Sometimes they do, sometimes they don't, but for sure the 12th place is the only one easily reachable by anyone ...


I can imagine....6 teams all trying to place 12th, archers on the line with seconds on the clock, waiting for the other 15 archers on the other 5 teams to shoot their last arrows and come up with a final team score, their accountant furiously calculating what total score they need to place 12th, then sending the info to the coach that they need to score 23 points on their last 3 arrows and the coach deciding if they’re going for 10-10-3 or 8-8-7, and who gets to shoot the 3 or the 7. All this in under 20 seconds. Granted, a bit easier in the Mixed teams, but what if the male archer needs a 3 to put his team in 12th, but the 3 will drop him into 8th individually?

Sure.


----------



## aavaaz

Boomer2094 said:


> Do they not practice in shooting the wind? Knowing that venue is going to be windy, it would behoove them to practice in Wind so they know how to deal with changing winds...
> 
> They knew where they will be competing at, it shouldn't be a surprise to them. Is Casey that ill-prepared for changing wind conditions, and didn't Brady tell her where she need to aim to compensate?
> 
> The US mix team match was very frustrating to watch. and I honestly don't know if I would just blame the location for it.
> 
> Would you mind sharing some insight in this?


These guys are well used to storms and strong winds. The girls individually and collectively are just not that strong both technically and mentally. Just compare our strongest female archer to the like of the top Indian or Korean archer. Just not at that level for even a bronze contention. We don't have that depth in the female talent bucket and seriously, USAA never really cultivated it. As for men, I do know Brady and Jack are at the level of Korean men technically but their focus is off this time around. But it is not the venue any more. Maybe in the beginning but not any more since they had time to adjust and train there. The venue is same for the Indians, Koreans, Chinese Taipei,,,


----------



## DarkMuppet

Vittorio said:


> Things are not ever what they look from outside.. In the high-level world, the one already third gets assigned the difficult task of adjusting the team score to get a good placement in the grid, and 12th place was perfect. Don't say he intentionally shot a 49 and a 46, but who knows? And third Bielorus girl shooting a 2 in the last end to have the team finish 12th? Who knows.
> JC ever had a terrible pressure in the team event while time left to him went down and down to zero and a null arrow without anyone counting the time for him, this is what was not working , at all, in the French team.


They used Phlions 653 and Barbarin's 654 to give them the 1307 total which was used to seed them. They did not used Valladont's 640, so no figures were manipulated to change to a better draw.
If I was Phlion, I'd be ####ing livid.


----------



## >--gt-->

aavaaz said:


> Just compare our strongest female archer to the like of the top Indian or Korean archer. Just not at that level for even a bronze contention.


I hope, and expect, that Mac will make you eat your words in a few days.


----------



## Stash

DarkMuppet said:


> They used Phlions 653 and Barbarin's 654 to give them the 1307 total which was used to seed them. They did not used Valladont's 640, so no figures were manipulated to change to a better draw.
> If I was Phlion, I'd be ####ing livid.


And GBR’s 12th place in the Mixed didn’t end up doing them a lot of good.


----------



## DarkMuppet

😄 No, it did not.


----------



## Boomer2094

>--gt--> said:


> I hope, and expect, that Mac will make you eat your words in a few days.


I think Mac will get past Schwartz... as long as she stay focused and shoot strong shots. I think she will get through round of 64 just fine. Beyond that, It is hard to tell.


----------



## Stash

With the schedule tightened up due to the weather problem, I’m kind of interested in how they figure they’ll be able to run matches only 13 minutes apart. Some matches could go 5 sets plus a shootoff.


----------



## limbwalker

>--gt--> said:


> I’ve shot and announced in that venue (Yumenoshima) in several events over the years. Every venue in Japan is windy. That one somewhat less than others there.
> 
> KOR built a windy venue to prepare. Chula Vista is windy. Weather is a part of the sport - the winners, including Ms. Park (with, in my personal opinion, the “true” Olympic Record, set at Athens- right next to a freaking AIR FORCE BASE) didn’t falter because of weather.


Weather, including wind, is indeed part of the sport. However, not every venue is the same. Chula, for example, has a very predictable onshore wind every day. Knowing that, in preparation for the 2012 trials, I deliberately shot most of my practice with a wind coming from the 8 O'clock position. I was fortunate to have a windy county fairgrounds to practice where I could also set up two targets at 70 meters, opposite one another, and get 180 degree reversals in wind from one end to the next. Not many folks - including our own OTC - give you that option.

Experience at any particular venue is critical. And venues with swirling winds created by a stadium "bowl" are in fact the worst possible scenario to place world class archers in. Again, my swimming across a river analogy. 

Put the event on an open field with true flags and then you have a fair competition. The Koreans will still win because they are the most well prepared archers on the planet, but at least the event will be more fair across the board and the athletes won't find themselves in a game of chance after spending most of their life preparing.


----------



## limbwalker

>--gt--> said:


> I hope, and expect, that Mac will make you eat your words in a few days.


Nice to see you express your confidence and support here, for a US archer. 

Mac has paid her dues. She knows how to compete well and is at the top of her form. That's all a person can do. The rest is up to fate and if anyone thinks less (or more) of her due to her placement at this one event, they are extremely naive and simple-minded.


----------



## limbwalker

Vittorio said:


> It is a normal part of the game in many teams sports, at all levels, from basket to volley and football, why not in archery?
> With 12 teams only into the grid and Ianseo giving you real time projections of the matches to come, for sure it is much better a 12th place than a 4th-5th one or, worse, a 9th or 8th one if Korea is on top as usual. There is a kind of mental reserve in talking openly about this, but any serious team has to deal with this decision, apart from ... Korea. Sometimes they do, sometimes they don't, but for sure the 12th place is the only one easily reachable by any team ...


11th is as close as one team could get. Not bad really. Turned out okay.

Stash, suspend your disbelief. If someone thinks '96 was the last time this was done, they don't know their own program that well, or are not willing to be forthcoming about it.


----------



## Stash

limbwalker said:


> Stash, suspend your disbelief. If someone thinks '96 was the last time this was done, they don't know their own program that well, or are not willing to be forthcoming about it.



Ok, John, then would you kindly briefy explain how a team would go about doing this? A hypothetical would be fine, or if you have a personal experience, better.

This year, 12 M and W teams. Top 4 get a bye on the first round. What’s the best spot to be in if you’re not going to be in the top 4, and how physically do you go about trying to place your team into that spot, especially when there are sometimes less than 10 points separating 4 or 5 teams?

I will have “what if?” follow-up questions. 😄


----------



## limbwalker

I want to publicly congratulate Takaharu Furukawa for his part in the team bronze. He was the first international archer I shot against (Turkey in '04) when he was barely 20 years old. To see him now as a 5x Olympian and helping his team to bronze is very satisfying because he is one of the nicest young men you'll ever meet (although he's not that young anymore!). After beating me after two consecutive one-arrow shoot-offs, he gave me a Japanese archery pin that is to this day, one of my most treasured archery items. I hope he makes six or seven games for Japan.


----------



## limbwalker

Stash said:


> Ok, John, then would you kindly briefy explain how a team would go about doing this? A hypothetical would be fine, or if you have a personal experience, better.
> 
> This year, 12 M and W teams. Top 4 get a bye on the first round. What’s the best spot to be in if you’re not going to be in the top 4, and how physically do you go about trying to place your team into that spot, especially when there are sometimes less than 10 points separating 4 or 5 teams?
> 
> I will have “what if?” follow-up questions. 😄


Easy. The coach comes up behind you with one end to go and says "alright boys, everyone go out there and shoot a 50." It's not "that" hard to do if you're shooting well. Unless of course you put the first 5 in the gold and then have to shoot a 4 with your last arrow - or (cough) something like that. LOL

Just look at the bracket and pick which team's bracket you think you can take over. It's not high level math.


----------



## Stash

But how does the coach know everyone needs to shoot a 50, when he doesn’t have the scores of every other archer and team who’s still shooting? And what if THEIR coaches have told THEM to all shoot 50s?

I’d think the coach’s job would be to tell each of them from the first end to go out there and shoot 60s.


----------



## limbwalker

Stash said:


> But how does the coach know everyone needs to shoot a 50, when he doesn’t have the scores of every other archer and team who’s still shooting? And what if THEIR coaches have told THEM to all shoot 50s?
> 
> I’d think the coach’s job would be to tell each of them from the first end to go out there and shoot 60s.


Why do you think he doesn't have those scores?


----------



## Stash

Because they haven’t been shot yet.


----------



## limbwalker

Stash said:


> Because they haven’t been shot yet.


If all but the final end has been shot, a decent coach can make a pretty well educated guess. 

What about this is so difficult to understand?


----------



## Stash

The concept isn’t difficult to understand, but I find the execution would virtually impossible to conduct.

Too many variables, too little time, and on top of that, if your archers can’t shoot 57s or 58s on demand, the 50s you’ve asked them to shoot could easily turn into a bunch of 47s and make things worse. Plus, asking your archers to shoot 50s could theoretically help the team, but might easily put them individually in a worse position, and adding that calculation into the mix makes it even more unwieldly.

And again, you haven’t considered that other coaches may have asked THEIR archers to do similar on the last end, completely screwing up the calculation.

The whole thing just doesn’t make sense.


----------



## limbwalker

Stash said:


> The concept isn’t difficult to understand, but I find the execution would virtually impossible to conduct.
> 
> Too many variables, too little time, and on top of that, if your archers can’t shoot 57s or 58s on demand, the 50s you’ve asked them to shoot could easily turn into a bunch of 47s and make things worse. Plus, asking your archers to shoot 50s could theoretically help the team, but might easily put them individually in a worse position, and adding that calculation into the mix makes it even more unwieldly.
> 
> And again, you haven’t considered that other coaches may have asked THEIR archers to do similar on the last end, completely screwing up the calculation.
> 
> The whole thing just doesn’t make sense.


If you mean getting to a specific spot, then yes. Too many variables in too little time. But you can get pretty close, I think, or at least get yourself out of a bad situation.

As for your "shoot 60's (or 57's, etc.) on demand" - I just don't follow that logic. The 10 ring represents a tiny % of surface area on the target face compared to the other rings. 

Lastly, if an archer doesn't see their first responsibility as to the team vs. themselves, I wouldn't want that archer on my team. Oh sure, there are plenty of those out there, but anyone with a brain knows their best chance to medal is in the team event, not the individual event.


----------



## DarkMuppet

Guys, if I remember correctly, this conspiracy bullsh#t came up in 2016 when a few people complained that all the USA men were in the same bottom bracket because of devious shenanigans by others to put them there. 😄


----------



## aavaaz

limbwalker said:


> fixed it for you
> 
> And at the risk of repeating myself, I think the venue is as much the culprit here as anything. When elite athletes do not know how to perform to get the results they are used to, or if they are performing well and seeing results they are not used to seeing, every single one of them are going to have confusion and frustration creep in. Casey's face said it all after her 2nd six in the team round.
> 
> Our athletes were prepared to shoot well. They were not prepared to win while shooting poorly, which is just as important a skill to have.
> 
> Put elite swimmers in the ocean or a river and see what happens. That's essentially what's going on in that venue.


You are incorrect. Instruction was unified again under coach Lee in late 2019 ( effective November) after the Women's coaching was in shambles and coach Woo was let go. Coach Lee is now the unified coach and just imagine the mountain he has to climb... as he has not had enough time to work with the women....


----------



## limbwalker

aavaaz said:


> You are incorrect. Instruction was unified again under coach Lee in late 2019 ( effective November) after the Women's coaching was in shambles and coach Woo was let go. Coach Lee is now the unified coach and just imagine the mountain he has to climb... as he has not had enough time to work with the women....


LOL you should know who you are responding to, I guess.

I'm not going to turn this into a bashing thread. But your statement needed some correction. 2/3 of the women's team are not his product, and in at least one case were deliberately kept away from him for a number of very good reasons which I won't go into.


----------



## AR720

DarkMuppet said:


> Guys, if I remember correctly, this conspiracy bullsh#t came up in 2016 when a few people complained that all the USA men were in the same bottom bracket because of devious shenanigans by others to put them there. 😄


It's actually even better...there were people on this board that were suggesting that the US intentionally put themselves in the same bracket.









Bracket Hell and the Perversion Potential of the Current...


Looking At placements. Brady 2 Zach 15 Jake 31 That means if Jake wins his first match he then shoots against Brady ... 2 v 31 And if Zach wins first 2, then he goes against Brady. So, no way for more than one American to advance to medal round. Bracket hell. Likely that the Korean in...




www.archerytalk.com


----------



## aavaaz

limbwalker said:


> LOL you should know who you are responding to, I guess.
> 
> I'm not going to turn this into a bashing thread. But your statement needed some correction. 2/3 of the women's team are not his product, and in at least one case were deliberately kept away from him for a number of very good reasons which I won't go into.


I am referring to the unified coaching at Chula Vista., and the fact that coach lee is the head coach of both women and men after Woo was let go. So pretty please, with cherry on top, shall we move on? This is not about you or your insatiable ego of whose is bigger....


----------



## limbwalker

aavaaz said:


> I am referring to the unified coaching at Chula Vista., and the fact that coach lee is the head coach of both women and men after Woo was let go. So pretty please, with cherry on top, shall we move on? This is not about you or your insatiable ego of whose is bigger....


As someone who was asked personally by Lee to run the women's program (in '07) I'm well aware of all that history and more in fact, including his history prior to coming to the US. My last student was one of Woo's first at the OTC. The track record of our women's program since '06 isn't something any world class coach would want on their resume, so it's probably not an argument you want to continue making.


----------



## aavaaz

limbwalker said:


> LOL you should know who you are responding to, I guess.
> 
> I'm not going to turn this into a bashing thread. But your statement needed some correction. 2/3 of the women's team are not his product, *and in at least one case were deliberately kept away from him for a number of very good reasons which I won't go into.*


.....and look how that turned out...you sure do have an inverted view of your self-proclaimed accomplishments..But let me jolt you back into coherence off of you levitating platform - in the bigger scheme of things, you are not even a blip on the radar screen. As I said before,, deliberate manipulation of information in a public chatroom should be nipped in the bud which is my intention.


----------



## limbwalker

aavaaz said:


> .....and look how that turned out...you sure do have an inverted view of your self-proclaimed accomplishments..But let me jolt you back into coherence off of you levitating platform - in the bigger scheme of things, you are not even a blip on the radar screen. As I said before,, deliberate manipulation of information in a public chatroom should be nipped in the bud which is my intention.


Oh, so I see you're into online gaming yourself. Well, gt will prove a more formidable challenge for you. I have better things to do than to argue with someone who is convinced they have all the information they need.


----------



## Stash

limbwalker said:


> If you mean getting to a specific spot, then yes. Too many variables in too little time. But you can get pretty close, I think, or at least get yourself out of a bad situation.
> 
> As for your "shoot 60's (or 57's, etc.) on demand" - I just don't follow that logic. The 10 ring represents a tiny % of surface area on the target face compared to the other rings.
> 
> Lastly, if an archer doesn't see their first responsibility as to the team vs. themselves, I wouldn't want that archer on my team. Oh sure, there are plenty of those out there, but anyone with a brain knows their best chance to medal is in the team event, not the individual event.


Let’s say you want to shoot a 50 on your last end. (Times 3 team members). You want something like 9-9–8-8-8-8. So you aim towards one side, or high or low in the gold/red. Your first 5 shots score, say, 9-9-8-8-8 for 42 points like you plan. You need an 8. Yes, the total area of the 8 ring is much larger than the area of the 10, but you’re aiming at a specific area of the 8 ring, a circle with a tiny x in the middle of the 8 ring, and that circle that scores 8 is actually much smaller than the 10.

Or, you try for golds and get something like 10-9-9-9-8 and need a 5 for that 50. The total area of that circle in the 5 ring where you’re aiming is, again, smaller than the 10.

So, if you’re capable of shooting an 8 in a specific part of the 8 ring, or a 5 in a specific part of the 5 ring, then why not just start the day using that skill to hit the larger 10 ring and accept the 9s and 8s as they come?

As for the team thing, well, I just massively disagree. Archery is an individual sport which has been artificially cobbled together to turn it into a team event, and to me, individual excellence supersedes any contrived gambling with the odds of how fitting into brackets may or may not slightly increase your odds of staying in the game as long as possible until the Koreans finally kick your butt out of there.

Things might be different if they had a separate team ranking round, but they don’t.


Now, we’re talking the Team events here, against other countries. I can see some merit in trying to fiddle with the brackets in the individual competition so your teammates don’t knock each other out early, but that’s a different scenario. Still probably very difficult to pull off intentionally since these days there are so many ties and close scores covering a large number of placings. Probably best to just shoot to your ability and see what happens.


----------



## aavaaz

limbwalker said:


> As someone who was asked personally by Lee to run the women's program (in '07) I'm well aware of all that history and more in fact, including his history prior to coming to the US. My last student was one of Woo's first at the OTC. The track record of our women's program since '06 isn't something any world class coach would want on their resume, so it's probably not an argument you want to continue making.


Oh but I do... and it is not an argument and. I'm setting the record straight. All in all I could care less about all the politics. My passion is Olympic recurve and seeing my 3 mates win. So lets get back to that. Oh and yes,, your's is huge😄😄 bigger than all of us combined. Happy?


----------



## limbwalker

Ah, nothing like a good 'ol passive-aggressive veiled threat on AT. It was only a matter of time once a certain someone showed up. LOL


----------



## limbwalker

aavaaz said:


> Oh but I do... and it is not an argument and. I'm setting the record straight. All in all I could care less about all the politics. My passion is Olympic recurve and seeing my 3 mates win. So lets get back to that. Oh and yes,, your's is huge😄😄 bigger than all of us combined. Happy?


I guess I'm unclear what "record" you think you're setting straight. Rather than attack people, state your case.


----------



## Skeptix_907

aavaaz said:


> Example: Ever heard of War cry? Increases focus, gets rid of jitters and intimidates the enemy. Its been practiced for ever. You can find plenty on peer reviewed literature on Peak Performance if you are a member of a university library like the Miami University Oxford, OH, Miami University Libraries , Plos, sciencedirect etc. and no, "googling it" won't be enough.
> 
> Regards.


I have institutional access to most scientific literature databases because I work at a university.

I didn't just "google it". I looked in the peer-reviewed literature and as far as I see, "peak performance priming" isn't even a real term, just an advertising phrase made up to sell training programs.

The way this works is if you make a positive claim (peak performance priming improves archery scores), you have to put up the evidence. You have none.


----------



## aavaaz

>--gt--> said:


> Y’know, I have had the person you’re apparently attacking blocked on this site for years, so I don’t see any of his posts- but let me give you a seemingly timely reminder of something you might want to keep in mind.
> 
> 
> View attachment 7438594


Oh threat! I would love for you to try. I'm at every competition. Are you? If you are, then try. I do promise you that I'll convert you into my personal hand puppet. That, I promise. What a freaking lowlife!!


----------



## aavaaz

limbwalker said:


> I guess I'm unclear what "record" you think you're setting straight. Rather than attack people, state your case.


...that coaching instruction was unified in november 2019. That.


----------



## >--gt-->

aavaaz said:


> I would love for you to try. I'm at every competition. Are you? If you are, then try. I do promise you that I'll convert you into my personal hand puppet. That, I promise.


Oh, not my job. Just a reminder that there a difference between an in-person conversation, and one conducted behind a screen and keyboard. Shame that you don’t understand that.


----------



## limbwalker

Stash said:


> Let’s say you want to shoot a 50 on your last end. (Times 3 team members). You want something like 9-9–8-8-8-8. So you aim towards one side, or high or low in the gold/red. Your first 5 shots score, say, 9-9-8-8-8 for 42 points like you plan. You need an 8. Yes, the total area of the 8 ring is much larger than the area of the 10, but you’re aiming at a specific area of the 8 ring, a circle with a tiny x in the middle of the 8 ring, and that circle that scores 8 is actually much smaller than the 10.
> 
> Or, you try for golds and get something like 10-9-9-9-8 and need a 5 for that 50. The total area of that circle in the 5 ring where you’re aiming is, again, smaller than the 10.
> 
> So, if you’re capable of shooting an 8 in a specific part of the 8 ring, or a 5 in a specific part of the 5 ring, then why not just start the day using that skill to hit the larger 10 ring and accept the 9s and 8s as they come?
> 
> As for the team thing, well, I just massively disagree. Archery is an individual sport which has been artificially cobbled together to turn it into a team event, and to me, individual excellence supersedes any contrived gambling with the odds of how fitting into brackets may or may not slightly increase your odds of staying in the game as long as possible until the Koreans finally kick your butt out of there.
> 
> Things might be different if they had a separate team ranking round, but they don’t.


I never said anyone shot "exactly" the score they were asked to shoot, or that the team ended up in "exactly" the hoped-for placement. But to not even try when you're at risk of being in a very undesireable spot when you have the ability to at least do something would be senseless. 

We can agree to disagree on the team thing, but I feel pretty good about what I said and the simple math is behind me here. Any given archer has 3x the odds of becoming an Olympic medalist as part of a team compared to an individual. That may not be very important to a select few who already have Olympic medals in team events, but it's pretty important to most archers. My guess is the Koreans would see it this way, but I could be wrong about that.


----------



## chrstphr

Vittorio said:


> I have been one of those expecting some other team to challenge Korean girs, specifically China and Taipei, but clearly, their Idea of hiding for almost 2 years was not so bright.


Something happened in the China program after Beijing. China went from having teams with very good form and many podiums to teams that have poor form and arent that competitive. Up to Beijing, they were the true rivals for Korea, and the only teams that could beat them. 

I dont know if the program changed, the head coach changed, but something did. And now their program is not turning out competitive archers, much like the USA program. I know that Zhang Juanjuan has an archery acedemy, but i dont think she has anything to do with the national team. 

Now Chinese Taipei is the rival. They have a similar system to South Korea. Starting archery with kids in elementary school, they have a pro league with 5 teams sponsored by wealthy companies etc. 

They are now putting out competitive archers on men and women side. China, i have to wonder what is happening in their national program.

Chris


----------



## limbwalker

aavaaz said:


> ...that coaching instruction was unified in november 2019. That.


I never disputed that. I know the program better than you must think I do.


----------



## limbwalker

aavaaz said:


> I would love for you to try. I'm at every competition. Are you? If you are, then try. I do promise you that I'll convert you into my personal hand puppet. That, I promise.


That's just unnecessary and frankly, disappointing. The whole point of passive-aggressive threats on social media is to at least entertain the audience. I mean, gt's post was at least entertaining.


----------



## aavaaz

limbwalker said:


> I guess I'm unclear what "record" you think you're setting straight. Rather than attack people, state your case.


Hey Limb,
Aren't you going to threaten me too?? Beat me up or something like this other lowlife scum --gt-- who is too afraid to tell us his real name? Seeing as you and I are going at each other for a while now?....😃😃😃. please don't beat me Limbwaker, I wont do it again.


----------



## aavaaz

limbwalker said:


> That's just unnecessary and frankly, disappointing. The whole point of passive-aggressive threats on social media is to at least entertain the audience. I mean, gt's post was at least entertaining.


Naa... its all good but threat is a threat and should never be taken lightly.


----------



## >--gt-->

aavaaz said:


> Naa... its all good but threat is a threat and should never be taken lightly.


It’s an interesting commentary on your mindset that you perceive an observation and amusing but timely meme as a personal threat. 

It speaks volumes- along with your apparent fixations.


----------



## chrstphr

aavaaz said:


> Hey Limb,
> Aren't you going to threaten me too?? Beat me up or something like this other lowlife scum --gt-- who is too afraid to tell us his real name? Seeing as you and I are going at each other for a while now?....😃😃😃. please don't beat me Limbwaker, I wont do it again.


Everyone on here knows GT's name and his history with Olympic archery. While he and i dont always agree, I do respect his contributions to archery and his level of expertise. I give the man his due and the respect that goes along with it. Regardless my personal take on him.

You have a lot of gall to complain about his supposed hiding behind an anonymous profile when you have done the same. I fortunately had friends who knew who you were when you started trolling me. So I do know who you are if you are at a tournament. And i have no problem seeing if you talk the same smack face to face as you do on the internet. 

GT and I are always at the Vegas shoots in Las Vegas. And both of us are easy to find there.

Chris Hill,


----------



## Stash

limbwalker said:


> I never said anyone shot "exactly" the score they were asked to shoot, or that the team ended up in "exactly" the hoped-for placement. But to not even try when you're at risk of being in a very undesireable spot when you have the ability to at least do something would be senseless.


Ok, I think we understand each other. 

One last question...I asked before but you didn’t answer. What is (outside of the top 4 with a bye) considered an “undesirable spot”? If you were the Olympic coach this year, what ranking position would you have wanted the US men’s team to get into? 

I mean, they were 5th, had to face the lowest ranked team France, but that didn't work out well. Would you have asked Wukie to dump a miss in his last arrow to drop them down to 7th or something like that? And would he have done it? I assume you wouldn’t ask Ellison, because his placing is well, more important that Wukie?


----------



## FerrumVeritas

So I know no one is shooting right now, but what the hell?


----------



## aavaaz

chrstphr said:


> Why would i need friends?
> 
> I didnt threaten you. I said i had no problem seeing if YOU talked the same smack as you do on the internet.
> 
> How is that a threat?
> 
> I havent shot a USAT in a couple years, but i might next year. Specifically AZ cup and SoCal.
> 
> Chris


My bad I misread your post...and I only talk to the level of the recipient, its called adaptive communication. I do however take a threat like your friend made, however remote it may seen, very seriously.


----------



## Draven Olary

Skeptix_907 said:


> I have institutional access to most scientific literature databases because I work at a university.
> 
> I didn't just "google it". I looked in the peer-reviewed literature and as far as I see, "peak performance priming" isn't even a real term, just an advertising phrase made up to sell training programs.


I really doubt there is any scientific study regarding the shout or kiai (japanese) or kihap (korean term) outside a dojo. I agree that "peak performance priming" is gibberish. It's funny how he is shouting after a 10 and goes quiet after a 9. I think during the India-Kor he was calmed down by one of his team mates.


----------



## FerrumVeritas

aavaaz said:


> I don't even wish to know who the F your are.. Come up to me and bring your low life friends. Don't ever threaten me hiding behind a keyboard. I'm at all the USAT's.


While this behavior is arguably representative of a segment of the US population, I sincerely hope that you never represent us on the world stage. You’re a poor ambassador to the sport, a child, or both.


----------



## limbwalker

Stash said:


> Ok, I think we understand each other.
> 
> One last question...I asked before but you didn’t answer. What is (outside of the top 4 with a bye) considered an “undesirable spot”? If you were the Olympic coach this year, what ranking position would you have wanted the US men’s team to get into?
> 
> I mean, they were 5th, had to face the lowest ranked team France, but that didn't work out well. Would you have asked Wukie to dump a miss in his last arrow to drop them down to 7th or something like that? And would he have done it? I assume you wouldn’t ask Ellison, because his placing is well, more important that Wukie?


Vittorio addressed this in an earlier post on this topic (that was linked above). He has a LOT more experience here than I do, so hopefully he will chime in.

The idea is to face the top ranked teams as far into the competition as you can. So if you can't get into the top 4, you want to be 6th, 7th, 10th or 11th to stay out of the #1 team's bracket all the way to the final.

In 5th, the US Men were not going to face Korea until the semi-final, ensuring at least a medal match, but odds-wise it would have been better had they stayed out of Korea's bracket all together.









Tokyo 2020 Men's Team Results - Olympic archery


Find out who took home gold, silver and bronze in 2020. Official results of the archery Men's Team event at the Tokyo Summer Olympics.




olympics.com


----------



## limbwalker

aavaaz said:


> I don't even wish to know who the F your are.. Come up to me and bring your low life friends. Don't ever threaten me hiding behind a keyboard. I'm at all the USAT's.


If you're looking for the express lane to getting banned, you are getting warmer. 

I can't remember a member of the FITA forum taking on so many people at once. You're something special alright.


----------



## chrstphr

Yes, as said before, If India had been on the other side of the bracket, they probably would have made the medal matches. Being on the #1 ranked side of the bracket is not so great when it's Korea you are up against. 

Chris


----------



## limbwalker

aavaaz said:


> My bad I misread your post...and I only talk to the level of the recipient, its called adaptive communication. I do however take a threat like your friend made, however remote it may seen, very seriously.


the fact that you think those two are friends is just further evidence of how poorly informed you are.


----------



## >--gt-->

chrstphr said:


> Yes, as said before, If India had been on the other side of the bracket, they probably would have made the medal matches. Being on the #1 ranked side of the bracket is not so great when it's Korea you are up against.
> 
> Chris


India’s scores were certainly competitive- but certainly there’s going to be a bit more of an adrenaline dump for most people when it’s KOR in the box next to you, so it’s hard to say what their scores might have been if they had a chance to go up against, say, FRA or INA before meeting KOR.

Sometimes as you know, that KOR intimidation factor can drive teams to higher performances, like JPN and TPE, or it can be the trigger of a collapse, which we really didn’t see in Tokyo, but have certainly seen in other events.

I’ve personally seen teams that were capable of mid-50’s drop into the 40’s per set just from the stress of being put on the same FOP as KOR. More than once. Yet, many more times, I have seen teams in the low to mid 50’s bring out their finest performances when faced with KOR. I think JPN yesterday is a perfect example of that.

A similar observation was made at the 2015 World Cup stage in TUR when the JPN women’s team defeated KOR. They rose to the occasion.


----------



## Vittorio

Just on side, can I ask to GT to tell politely to the TV crew in Tokyo to stop doing the worse job ever done during any other Olympic Game before? Images coming from Tokyo are taken in the worst possible way to show archery to anyone, and even worse more to show it to archers. That absurd way of zooming every time to the full face of the archers while is at full traction don't allow to see anything of what really happens at release, bow reaction, arrow living, clicker. Even worse for technical sponsors, as the bow and its parts is never shown in details. Someone may have tried to instruct them a bit already, as at the end of the team event situation has been a bit better, with more large views and front views of archers, but still very far from any acceptable level.


----------



## limbwalker

>--gt--> said:


> India’s scores were certainly competitive- but certainly there’s going to be a bit more of an adrenaline dump for most people when it’s KOR in the box next to you, so it’s hard to say what their scores might have been if they had a chance to go up against, say, FRA or INA before meeting KOR.
> 
> Sometimes as you know, that KOR intimidation factor can drive teams to higher performances, like JPN and TPE, or it can be the trigger of a collapse, which we really didn’t see in Tokyo, but have certainly seen in other events.
> 
> I’ve personally seen teams that were capable of mid-50’s drop into the 40’s per set just from the stress of being put on the same FOP as KOR. More than once. Yet, many more times, I have seen teams in the low to mid 50’s bring out their finest performances when faced with KOR. I think JPN yesterday is a perfect example of that.
> 
> A similar observation was made at the 2015 World Cup stage in TUR when the JPN women’s team defeated KOR. They rose to the occasion.


Any coincidence that those teams that raise their level vs. Korea are also Asian teams? I'm thinking they simply have more opportunity to shoot with/vs. them than Europeans or Americans. But that might not be the difference. Curious though.


----------



## Boomer2094

limbwalker said:


> In 5th, the US Men were not going to face Korea until the semi-final, ensuring at least a medal match, but odds-wise it would have been better had they stayed out of Korea's bracket all together.


Well, Japan made sure Team USA didn't get to the Semi...

Just to play what-if... Limbwalker, based on the result of the Man's Team match, do you think if USA and Chinese Taipei switched Rank (5th to 6th). USA would be getting silver medal?


----------



## limbwalker

Boomer2094 said:


> Well, Japan made sure Team USA didn't get to the Semi...
> 
> Just to play what-if... Limbwalker, based on the result of the Man's Team match, do you think if USA and Chinese Taipei switched Rank (5th to 6th). USA would be getting silver medal?


Based on their end scores, no. 

Nobody should expect to shoot 52's and 53's and advance to the Semi's.


----------



## >--gt-->

Vittorio said:


> Just on side, can I ask to GT to tell politely to the TV crew in Tokyo to stop doing the worse job ever done during any other Olympic Game before? Images coming from Tokyo are taken in the worst possible way to show archery to anyone, and even worse more to show it to archers. That absurd way of zooming every time to the full face of the archers while is at full traction don't allow to see anything of what really happens at release, bow reaction, arrow living, clicker. Even worse for technical sponsors, as the bow and its parts is never shown in details. Someone may have tried to instruct them a bit already, as at the end of the team event situation has been a bit better, with more large views and front views of archers, but still very far from any acceptable level.


You and I find ourselves in unfortunate agreement, my friend. 

I do hope the official film, which to I am told will be produced by NHK, will address some of your points.


----------



## chrstphr

Boomer2094 said:


> Well, Japan made sure Team USA didn't get to the Semi...
> 
> Just to play what-if... Limbwalker, based on the result of the Man's Team match, do you think if USA and Chinese Taipei switched Rank (5th to 6th). USA would be getting silver medal?


No, USA shot too many red. You cant shoot that many red and really end up in the Gold medal match.

The teams making the medal matches shot in the 55 ish range. USA was more like 52s.

Chris


----------



## Boomer2094

Aha, I didn't know that you can click on the teams and it would show the match score.... My bad.

Yeah, USA has way too many 8's, and even a 7...

Quick Question... does the order they list the archer in team match indicate shooting order? for example, If It listed "Ellison - Williams - Wukie" Does it mean they shot the match in that order?


----------



## chrstphr

Boomer2094 said:


> Aha, I didn't know that you can click on the teams and it would show the match score.... My bad.
> 
> Yeah, USA has way too many 8's, and even a 7...
> 
> Quick Question... does the order they list the archer in team match indicate shooting order? for example, If It listed "Ellison - Williams - Wukie" Does it mean they shot the match in that order?


I think the shooting order was Williams, Ellison, Wukie for the second match.

Though Brady may have gone first in one of the matches.


Chris


----------



## Boomer2094

Just trying to match up the each arrow's score to a shooter... Since I didn't get to see it on TV.

If that shooting order is correct, Brady shot couple 8's and a 7... which is uncharacteristic from him.


----------



## >--gt-->

chrstphr said:


> I think the shooting order was Williams, Ellison, Wookie for the second match.
> 
> Though Brady may have gone first in one of the matches.
> 
> 
> Chris


This is a Wookie.









This is a Wukie.









To the untrained eye, the difference is subtle… but important.


----------



## chrstphr

>--gt--> said:


> This is a Wookie.
> View attachment 7438661
> 
> 
> This is a Wukie.
> View attachment 7438662
> 
> 
> To the untrained eye, the difference is subtle… but important.


my bad...

Chris


----------



## Stash

Boomer2094 said:


> Quick Question... does the order they list the archer in team match indicate shooting order? for example, If It listed "Ellison - Williams - Wukie" Does it mean they shot the match in that order?


Team member names on the official Olympics site are in alphabetical (English) order.


----------



## chrstphr

Boomer2094 said:


> Just trying to match up the each arrow's score to a shooter... Since I didn't get to see it on TV.
> 
> If that shooting order is correct, Brady shot couple 8's and a 7... which is uncharacteristic from him.


In the second match, Jack really shot well. 

Chris


----------



## Hikari

Wow, I just caught up with this thread. For a moment I couldn't tell if this discussion is on AT or 4CHAN.


----------



## lameduck

limbwalker said:


> I want to publicly congratulate Takaharu Furukawa for his part in the team bronze. He was the first international archer I shot against *(Turkey in '04)* when he was barely 20 years old. To see him now as a 5x Olympian and helping his team to bronze is very satisfying because he is one of the nicest young men you'll ever meet (although he's not that young anymore!). After beating me after two consecutive one-arrow shoot-offs, he gave me a Japanese archery pin that is to this day, one of my most treasured archery items. I hope he makes six or seven games for Japan.


Neither the US nor Japan sent delegates on that event. Maybe you're thinking Athens?


----------



## Stash

Respectfully request that you move this and any personal squabbling to another thread, and leave this one for discussion about the actual competition.


----------



## Osiris155

Devolution once again!


----------



## >--gt-->

Osiris155 said:


> Devolution once again!


Ah. A classic.


----------



## Osiris155

Yep, the usual suspects.


----------



## limbwalker

lameduck said:


> Neither the US nor Japan sent delegates on that event. Maybe you're thinking Athens?


You might want to re-check that. Frank and Sheri were the coaches. Myself, Joe McGlyn and Scott McKechnie were the men's team and the women's full Olympic team (Jenny, Stephanie and Janet) were there as well. It was the Turkish Grand Prix event in '04 (before the World Cup existed). It was my first international match. I don't think I'd mistake that. I can even tell you where the four shoot-off arrows landed if you want.


----------



## limbwalker

Osiris155 said:


> Devolution once again!


It is an internet discussion forum. You were expecting everyone to stay on-topic? LOL


----------



## Stash

OK, here we go.

Only 128 more matches and we’ll be done. 😄


----------



## Stash

Some sort of technical screwup with the scorekeeping on the first match....


----------



## FerrumVeritas

And it's raining. I'm sure that won't affect the shooting at all...


----------



## limbwalker

FerrumVeritas said:


> And it's raining. I'm sure that won't affect the shooting at all...


I've seen some very good scores shot in the rain. Better than average in fact. A good archer can read the wind better when it's raining.


----------



## Stash

“Competition delayed due to technical maintenance”.

Anyone got a pencil and paper? 😄


----------



## jlocke

limbwalker said:


> <—-snip—->
> The Koreans will still win because they are the most well prepared archers on the planet…
> <—-snip—->


I’m just getting caught up with this thread; read it from start to finish this evening as I was looking for insight among the experienced regarding our team’s Olympic results.

And, this was the most interesting quote (to me) and the one that deserves a deeper understanding.

So, how are—exactly—the Koreans the most prepared? What should our archers be doing differently?


----------



## TER

It got a bit salty up in here today. I missed a lot of deleted posts. Next Olympics I'm taking off of work during the archery week so I can catch everything in real time. 

It should be known by every adult, as a part of basic general knowledge, that the person who makes the claim is responsible for providing the evidence. 

And secondly, anyone who has attended at least a couple US National level tournaments in the last twenty years knows exactly who GT is. 

I'm not a US citizen but I'm a little sad by how these Olympics are going for Brady so far. And disappointed for Sjef at another fourth place. I really want to see Sjef win a medal since he's retiring after these Games. GO CRISPIN GO CANADA!!! I still have hope something I want to happen will happen.


----------



## limbwalker

jlocke said:


> I’m just getting caught up with this thread; read it from start to finish this evening as I was looking for insight among the experienced regarding our team’s Olympic results.
> 
> And, this was the most interesting quote (to me) and the one that deserves a deeper understanding.
> 
> So, how are—exactly—the Koreans the most prepared? What should our archers be doing differently?


Not only is this what they do for a living (not unique now to just Koreans) but they have the deepest field of competition and they shoot against the best archers in the world day in and day out. Winning a national or even local event in Korea is harder than winning a World Cup event, because of that talent/skill pool they live in every day. In addition, they have most of the best, most experienced coaches in the world on their team and in each of their personal histories. 

That's what I mean by best prepared.


----------



## FerrumVeritas

I want a jersey that says "Cool Canuck"


----------



## chrstphr

jlocke said:


> I’m just getting caught up with this thread; read it from start to finish this evening as I was looking for insight among the experienced regarding our team’s Olympic results.
> 
> And, this was the most interesting quote (to me) and the one that deserves a deeper understanding.
> 
> So, how are—exactly—the Koreans the most prepared? What should our archers be doing differently?


they have the best form, the best training, the best system for recruiting archers and the most money put in to it by their country and companies.

The Korean's built a replica of the Olympic shooting park so their archers could practice like it would be in Tokyo. For Rio, they did the same, and went to Rio months before the olympics to acclimate. 

They will skip world cups to prepare.

Chris


----------



## RAzZin

chrstphr said:


> they have the best form, the best training, the best system for recruiting archers and the most money put in to it by their country and companies.


And the highest level of competition inside the country as well, amount of world class archers in Korea is insane, I think making it to a national team is much more complicated for them than to shoot any international event.


----------



## AR720

>--gt--> said:


> You and I find ourselves in unfortunate agreement, my friend.
> 
> I do hope the official film, which to I am told will be produced by NHK, will address some of your points.


Is it at least possible for you to give a pronounciation guide to the commentator at NBC? The man mispronounces the athletes' names almost as often as people misspell their names on this board


----------



## woof156

And yet Unruh just upset the top Korean seed-- proving that everyone is liable to have a bad day...


----------



## >--gt-->

Stunning performance from Florian. Just brilliant- and once again the top seed proves that matchplay is a different thing than the ranking round. 

(I also predict that shouting on a regular basis in competition will be a short-lived phenomenon)


----------



## Ray.L

Yep, great shooting from Florian. No hat trick for Kim JD, unfortunately. An San still has a shot, though


----------



## nakedape

>--gt--> said:


> Stunning performance from Florian. Just brilliant- and once again the top seed proves that matchplay is a different thing than the ranking round.
> 
> (I also predict that shouting on a regular basis in competition will be a short-lived phenomenon)


Was Kim JD yelling in this match?

adding up the total points
KIM 138 vs UNRUH 139

set is 3-7

personally, not a big fan of the set system.


----------



## woof156

nakedape said:


> Was Kim JD yelling in this match?
> 
> adding up the total points
> KIM 138 vs UNRUH 139
> 
> set is 3-7
> 
> personally, not a big fan of the set system.


No yelling-- maybe no team to fire up???? It was a good calm match..

The set system does round off performances, and often does not reward or reflect consistency of shooting but it does make the matches interesting and make for come backs.


----------



## limbwalker

chrstphr said:


> they have the best form, the best training, the best system for recruiting archers and the most money put in to it by their country and companies.
> 
> The Korean's built a replica of the Olympic shooting park so their archers could practice like it would be in Tokyo. For Rio, they did the same, and went to Rio months before the olympics to acclimate.
> 
> They will skip world cups to prepare.
> 
> Chris


Exactly. This is what I mean about best prepared. You said it better than I could Chris.


----------



## lameduck

limbwalker said:


> You might want to re-check that. Frank and Sheri were the coaches. Myself, Joe McGlyn and Scott McKechnie were the men's team and the women's full Olympic team (Jenny, Stephanie and Janet) were there as well. It was the Turkish Grand Prix event in '04 (before the World Cup existed). It was my first international match. I don't think I'd mistake that. I can even tell you where the four shoot-off arrows landed if you want.


Would you mind providing a link? The publicly accessible records doesn't agree.


----------



## limbwalker

lameduck said:


> Would you mind providing a link? The publicly accessible records doesn't agree.


You're kidding right? Where was that statement about someone making a claim has the responsibility to prove it? LOL Just jerking your chain - 

There are a lot of records that were lost or deleted or wiped from archery events in those days. You can't find the USAT rankings or results from many events in that period. Websites were revamped and a lot of information was lost everywhere when that happened. We didn't have a well established results site like Ianseo or Between Ends, etc. in those days so it fell on the host org. to collect, share and store those records. A lot of hosts, including USArchery, just dumped scores of records when they switched platforms. I still think USArchery dumping all the records that Ron Carmichael kept for USArchery for so many years is just criminal. 

I think I'll go home this afternoon and watch the DVD that Scott made for all of us on that trip for old times sake. He really made that trip fun.


----------



## lameduck

limbwalker said:


> You're kidding right? Where was that statement about someone making a claim has the responsibility to prove it? LOL Just jerking your chain -
> 
> There are a lot of records that were lost or deleted or wiped from archery events in those days. You can't find the USAT rankings or results from many events in that period. Websites were revamped and a lot of information was lost everywhere when that happened. We didn't have a well established results site like Ianseo or Between Ends, etc. in those days so it fell on the host org. to collect, share and store those records. A lot of hosts, including USArchery, just dumped scores of records when they switched platforms. I still think USArchery dumping all the records that Ron Carmichael kept for USArchery for so many years is just criminal.
> 
> I think I'll go home this afternoon and watch the DVD that Scott made for all of us on that trip for old times sake. He really made that trip fun.


No, I was thinking you have probably just forgotten the exact year or the hosting country/city. Here's what WA gives you when searching for an event in Turkey back in 2004...
European Grand Prix 2004 (Antalya, Turkey)

Notice how only seven countries are listed there? I myself hate it when organizations "re-write", forge, or erase/delete historical records.


----------



## limbwalker

lameduck said:


> No, I was thinking you have probably just forgotten the exact year or the hosting country/city. Here's what WA gives you when searching for an event in Turkey back in 2004...
> European Grand Prix 2004 (Antalya, Turkey)
> 
> Notice how only seven countries are listed there? I myself hate it when organizations "re-write", forge, or erase/delete historical records.


Hard for me to forget the exact year when it was a prep event for the 04 Olympics. If I had competed internationally as long as Rick or some others here, that might happen. But my international competitive history can be measured in months. I had an actual job, wife and three kids to get home to. LOL

Yea, those "results" are pretty messed up. Frangilli did win the event, and that is IIRC his ranking score (yes, 619) because we were both on bale 1 and the conditions were terrible for us on that edge of the field right by the trees. Michele was also battling illness at that time. I watched the Gold medal match from the balcony of our hotel in a sideways rainstorm. Crazy event.

I'll find some pictures from that event and share, since you've asked. I have good memories - mostly because of Scott and Stephanie and Janet and Tom Green. They were great teammates/managers. It was also the first time I met Lee. Tom introduced me to him at lunch one day. Little did I know my 2nd trip to Antalya would be as his asst. coach 3 years later.


----------



## SHPoet

aavaaz said:


> Why, because I’m making th rest of the members aware that you and your cronies are scum that collects at the corner of ones mouth every morning? Scum need to be dealt with. Ban ( laughinng)


10. What may not be in a post is as follows: Material that is threatening, harassing, or abusive to any party. Content that is sexual, defamatory, hateful, potentially slanderous, Conversations or in violation of any law is not tolerated. Knowingly posting false or misleading material will result in moderator action.


----------



## >--gt-->

Pretty salty words for someone who can’t break 300.


----------



## Seattlepop

If anyone knows aavaaz' name, please post it.


----------



## >--gt-->

Seattlepop said:


> If anyone knows aavaaz' name, please post it.


I think it’s pretty clear that this fellow wants the attention. I will discuss the behavior, along with screenshots with Kisik when he gets back. That should help re-set the behavior, if not the personality. Of course, with scores like this, I imagine Kisik (who has gone well out of his way to help this troubled creature) will encourage him to make better use of his time. Like practice, perhaps.


----------



## limbwalker

aavaaz said:


> Why, because I’m making th rest of the members aware that you and your cronies are scum that collects at the corner of ones mouth every morning? Scum need to be dealt with. *Ban ( laughinng)*


It's this part that I'll remember most fondly, I think.

However at this point I think you've moved well beyond just a ban on AT. You've managed to dig a hole for yourself in a very small sport that very few others have achieved and none have managed to crawl out of. This is like watching someone set themselves on fire in protest against the sun rising while everyone else walks by shaking their heads.


----------



## FerrumVeritas

I stand behind both sentiments in that statement:

If you’re a high level, high profile athlete who markets yourself, your (literal) brand, and the status your abilities in a sport gives you you deserve criticism as well as praise. If you want to have your mistakes kept private, don’t participate in the (possibly second) highest profile sporting event in the world.

And Brady cost the US both the mixed team and men’s matches. He took Jack’s head out of the game. He visibly added pressure to Mackenzie. Not just his shooting, which certainly shook them, but the way he was on the line. He couldn’t shake off a bad shot.

It happens. But the “Believe” video feels like counting chickens right now. Maybe an individual gold will change that, but maybe not.


----------



## limbwalker

FerrumVeritas said:


> I stand behind both sentiments in that statement:
> 
> If you’re a high level, high profile athlete who markets yourself, your (literal) brand, and the status your abilities in a sport gives you you deserve criticism as well as praise. If you want to have your mistakes kept private, don’t participate in the (possibly second) highest profile sporting event in the world.
> 
> And Brady cost the US both the mixed team and men’s matches. He took Jack’s head out of the game. He visibly added pressure to Mackenzie. Not just his shooting, which certainly shook them, but the way he was on the line. He couldn’t shake off a bad shot.
> 
> It happens. But the “Believe” video feels like counting chickens right now. Maybe an individual gold will change that, but maybe not.


Not gonna disagree with you, but that's tough to read after knowing Brady since he was teen and knowing what a kind hearted nice and generous guy he is. He's been so generous and kind to me and my students over the years that I feel I owe him the benefit of any doubt here. I suppose my signature line says enough to this particular point.

I was blamed, by a few, for our final team placement in Athens. But not by anyone who had ever been in those shoes. The only criticism that I was ever concerned about was that of my Olympic teammates because it was our team who had to live with the results. If Jack or Jacob or Mac want to hold Brady accountable, then I believe they have that right because every athlete deserves the best effort from their teammates. But I don't believe anyone else has earned that right. Not even the coach.


----------



## Boomer2094

I understand how someone can look up to a person and hold them at high esteem, but this is getting ridiculous... 

Brady is a human, he can, and sometime do, make mistakes. Calling him out for not performing to expectation is not the same as hating or jealousy... and I'm sure that, Brady, being a fierce competitor, will take those criticism as motivation to better himself for the next match.

US Man's team shot way too many 8's, and even one 7... That is unacceptable for a team that has a very solid, upcoming archer (Williams) and a proven Olympian (Brady). That is fact.

I hope Brady will redeem himself in the men's individual.

I'm shocked that Kahllund was able to knock out Kim... especially seeing him shoot in Mix and Men's team. Just goes to show that, nothing is for certain in archery. Even as great as he shot the day before, 3 bad ends (end 3 - 5) doomed his chance to medal.


----------



## limbwalker

Boomer2094 said:


> I understand how someone can look up to a person and hold them at high esteem, but this is getting ridiculous...
> 
> Brady is a human, he can, and sometime do, make mistakes. Calling him out for not performing to expectation is not the same as hating or jealousy... and I'm sure that, Brady, being a fierce competitor, will take those criticism as motivation to better himself for the next match.
> 
> US Man's team shot way too many 8's, and even one 7... That is unacceptable for a team that has a very solid, upcoming archer (Williams) and a proven Olympian (Brady). That is fact.
> 
> I hope Brady will redeem himself in the men's individual.
> 
> I'm shocked that Kahllund was able to knock out Kim... especially seeing him shoot in Mix and Men's team. Just goes to show that, nothing is for certain in archery. Even as great as he shot the day before, 3 bad ends (end 3 - 5) doomed his chance to medal.


That's why they play four full rounds in PGA tour events. Our current archery format is not a complete enough test to consistently reward the best archers.

I have been a proponent of double-elimination in archery matchplay for years now. We tested it at the TX state event years ago and everyone loved it - from the competitors to the fans. It would not be that hard to do. Take the top 32 from ranking and run them 2x if need be, but this single elim is just ridiculous and cannot be taken seriously.


----------



## Bob Furman

Seattlepop said:


> If anyone knows aavaaz' name, please post it.


Vik Chandel



Sent from my SM-N975U1 using Tapatalk


----------



## monterey

During the most recent rounds yesterday, they started showing pulse readings for the archers. It flashes on the screen briefly in the bottom left, and not every time.

I'm wondering how they are getting the readings. I doubt that everyone is fitted with a wireless monitor since it would probably be too intrusive. MIT had some papers about doing analysis of standard video images and magnifying color and movement so that pulse or vibration become visible. I wonder if someone commercialized it, and got it working in real time.

The pulse rates shown on the screen seem on the high side: 150, 160 in some cases, so I'm not sure how accurate it is. But it's the Olympics so maybe everyone has more adrenaline. Kim's was around 100 when up against David but hit 160 against Unruh.


----------



## Rael84

A smartwatch or HR monitor is about the size of a watch face and gives relatively accurate wireless readings when worn on the wrist (better if worn on a chest strap). I wouldn't consider that intrusive at all.


----------



## >--gt-->

Heartrates at Yumenoshima are being picked up with a remote sensor using a camera system. This is vulnerable to inclement weather, and isn‘t as accurate as direct measurements, but it does provide for an interesting data point for commentary.


----------



## Boomer2094

monterey said:


> During the most recent rounds yesterday, they started showing pulse readings for the archers. It flashes on the screen briefly in the bottom left, and not every time.
> 
> I'm wondering how they are getting the readings. I doubt that everyone is fitted with a wireless monitor since it would probably be too intrusive. MIT had some papers about doing analysis of standard video images and magnifying color and movement so that pulse or vibration become visible. I wonder if someone commercialized it, and got it working in real time.
> 
> The pulse rates shown on the screen seem on the high side 150s, 160s in some cases so I'm not sure how accurate it is. But it's the Olympics so maybe everyone has more adrenaline. Kim's was around 100 when up against David but hit 160 against Unruh.


If they are wearing smart watches like apple watch, it will monitor HR and I wonder if they organizer asked if they can synch the HR data... and because (prolly) not everyone said yes, that's why you don't see HR data for all archers.

It's an interesting metrics just to see how HR affect archer's performance... So something caused Kim's HR to spike when facing Unruh, Does it cause him to shoot badly on end 3 - 5? perhaps.


----------



## aavaaz

Boomer2094 said:


> I understand how someone can look up to a person and hold them at high esteem, but this is getting ridiculous...
> 
> Brady is a human, he can, and sometime do, make mistakes. Calling him out for not performing to expectation is not the same as hating or jealousy... and I'm sure that, Brady, being a fierce competitor, will take those criticism as motivation to better himself for the next match.
> 
> US Man's team shot way too many 8's, and even one 7... That is unacceptable for a team that has a very solid, upcoming archer (Williams) and a proven Olympian (Brady). That is fact.
> 
> I hope Brady will redeem himself in the men's individual.
> 
> I'm shocked that Kahllund was able to knock out Kim... especially seeing him shoot in Mix and Men's team. Just goes to show that, nothing is for certain in archery. Even as great as he shot the day before, 3 bad ends (end 3 - 5) doomed his chance to medal.


Brady is not only a hero to most of us but inspires a lot of us to pickup the bow and start practice no matter how we feel. He is kind, generous and a thorough gentleman. Some of us who are brand new to the sport and did not even know how to hold and Olympic bow 2 years ago were inspired by him. When I have a bad day in a competition, which is often, he says, “ pick your self up, because that’s what champs do”. Speaking from personal experience, 2 years ago I could not string an Olympic bow. But with Brady’s help, I’m enjoying the sport once again. So It is quite hurtful and frankly insulting for anyone to say anything against him or take jabs at his performance in anyway, shape or form. Hell, the best are dropping like flies in Tokyo. Just saw Unruh beat Kim and have never seen Crispin shoot this bad. But I’m glad he made it by the skin of his teeth. These are Olympians! Who are we to make snide remarks about them?
Brady is the best in the world bar none. Olympics or no olympics.


----------



## limbwalker

aavaaz said:


> *These are Olympians! Who are we to make snide remarks about them?*
> Brady is the best in the world bar none. Olympics or no olympics.


Now that's ironic.

Otherwise, we're in agreement about Brady. He's the best and he is beloved in the sport for good reason.


----------



## Boomer2094

Wow, just wow...

No man is above reproach... Brady is no exception. 

He is the best US archer right now... that is true. But best in the World? Against Koreans? No.

He has, and continue to inspire many, to pick up a bow and shoot their best, that is true.

He is human, and therefore not faultless. he can make mistakes, he can have an off day, it happens.

US lost in Mix team and men's team matches, which is he a part of, that is true.

How much responsibility Brady has on those two disappointing showings? Who knows. I didn't watch the match, I heard that Williams shot well, I don't know how Wukie and Mac shot. The point is, they lost the match they should of won, if each of the team members performed the best they are capable of. Someone clearly dropped the ball, I'd like to know who did.

There's no hate on Brady, he is an inspiration, he is a success story, just had off day during team matches in 2020 Olympic in Tokyo. 

Relax man... no need to get out of shape and attack people personally.


----------



## >--gt-->

Hey, I just hope we don’t get a bunch of extra “extended warranty” robocalls after this dumpster fire…


----------



## FerrumVeritas

Frankly, if we can’t criticize archers, even those we respect, what is the point of this thread? Just to say how great everyone is?

I may have been a little flippant, but I’m not being mean. No, I haven’t been in Brady’s shoes. But I’ve been in pressure situations and choked, in this sport and others. It happens. The idea that athletes are above reproach because they’re nice seems rather unique to archery.

That’s the price you pay for being on that stage: people watch. They cheer and jeer. I’m not saying people should be jerks, or that people don’t cross a line. But saying “you’re responsible for your team’s loss” isn’t that.


----------



## FerrumVeritas

aavaaz said:


> I was referring to a previous post by someone else where a snide remark about Brady’s documentary “ believe” was made. I was not referring to your post. Oh, and I’m relaxed. Just enjoying nipping red necks in the bud, but it had nothing to do with your post. Peace.


“Red neck” is a helluva assumption based on very little. I know you don’t know me, but you’re exceptionally off base.

It’s cool that you look up to people, but your hero worship is absurd. They don’t need you to defend them.


----------



## limbwalker

FerrumVeritas said:


> Frankly, if we can’t criticize archers, even those we respect, what is the point of this thread? Just to say how great everyone is?
> 
> I may have been a little flippant, but I’m not being mean. No, I haven’t been in Brady’s shoes. But I’ve been in pressure situations and choked, in this sport and others. It happens. The idea that athletes are above reproach because they’re nice seems rather unique to archery.
> 
> That’s the price you pay for being on that stage: people watch. They cheer and jeer. I’m not saying people should be jerks, or that people don’t cross a line. But saying “you’re responsible for your team’s loss” isn’t that.


Accusing someone of being responsible for their team's loss without having all the facts (that you could only get from being on the team), or without giving that archer/athlete credit for their role in getting the team to that point in the first place, is in my view, choosing only to focus on the negative. What do we call people who do that?


----------



## limbwalker

FerrumVeritas said:


> “Red neck” is a helluva assumption based on very little. I know you don’t know me, but you’re exceptionally off base.
> 
> It’s cool that you look up to people, but your hero worship is absurd. They don’t need you to defend them.


Why do I feel like we're all dealing with this guy...?


----------



## cerelestecerele

Boomer2094 said:


> If they are wearing smart watches like apple watch, it will monitor HR and I wonder if they organizer asked if they can synch the HR data... and because (prolly) not everyone said yes, that's why you don't see HR data for all archers.
> 
> It's an interesting metrics just to see how HR affect archer's performance... So something caused Kim's HR to spike when facing Unruh, Does it cause him to shoot badly on end 3 - 5? perhaps.


They used non-contact heart rate monitoring for the Korean national team's "special matches" like this . The heart rates were far lower than the numbers you've got, though no info about whether the technology performed well. The heart values interestingly were quite a good indicator of who was winning the match (lower value winning), somewhat surprising given that the same HR value could be anywhere from near their resting value (very relaxed) or close to double their resting value.


----------



## Boomer2094

cerelestecerele said:


> They used non-contact heart rate monitoring for the Korean national team's "special matches" like this . The heart rates were far lower than the numbers you've got, though no info about whether the technology performed well. The heart values interestingly were quite a good indicator of who was winning the match (lower value winning), somewhat surprising given that the same HR value could be anywhere from near their resting value (very relaxed) or close to double their resting value.


Interesting info for sure... So there is some correlation between HR and winning the match.

I know a lot of athletes wear fitness tracking band like Whoop. I wear one for cycling training. I wonder if any professional archers wear one to track their physical activity and recovery.


----------



## >--gt-->

As I previously mentioned, they are using non-contact systems at Yumenoshima, and these don’t work well in rainy weather. 

The technology is discussed here: https://res.mdpi.com/d_attachment/sensors/sensors-21-03719/article_deploy/sensors-21-03719.pdf


----------



## Boomer2094

>--gt--> said:


> As I previously mentioned, they are using non-contact systems at Yumenoshima, and these don’t work well in rainy weather.
> 
> The technology is discussed here: https://res.mdpi.com/d_attachment/sensors/sensors-21-03719/article_deploy/sensors-21-03719.pdf


Very interesting! thanks for sharing the article.

Seeing that how PPG rely on measuring the difference between diffuse and specular reflection, it wouldn't work every well in rain.

Do you guys think heart rate would be a valuable data to collect and track for Archery? I know it is for a lot of physical sport, but what about archery?


----------



## aavaaz

FerrumVeritas said:


> Frankly, if we can’t criticize archers, even those we respect, what is the point of this thread? Just to say how great everyone is?
> 
> I may have been a little flippant, but I’m not being mean. No, I haven’t been in Brady’s shoes. But I’ve been in pressure situations and choked, in this sport and others. It happens. The idea that athletes are above reproach because they’re nice seems rather unique to archery.
> 
> That’s the price you pay for being on that stage: people watch. They cheer and jeer. I’m not saying people should be jerks, or that people don’t cross a line. But saying “you’re responsible for your team’s loss” isn’t that.


Na.. Na…na. C’mon now. Don’t backtrack your actions.,, while you have every right to state your disappointment at our loss at the Olympics, your comment on “Believe” was a new low. The least you can do is own it. Many have taken offense to that. It’s just that they shirk playing with mud. I on the other hand rejoice it.


----------



## limbwalker

Boomer2094 said:


> Very interesting! thanks for sharing the article.
> 
> Seeing that how PPG rely on measuring the difference between diffuse and specular reflection, it wouldn't work every well in rain.
> 
> Do you guys think heart rate would be a valuable date to collect and track for Archery? I know it is for a lot of physical sport, but what about archery?


I thought I remembered some of the RA's doing this. Surely Darrell and Rick did this years ago?


----------



## Boomer2094

I would think training archers on how to deal with elevated heart rate due to excitement and/or stress would be extremely beneficial... It may help those archer who performs well in practice or ranking round but "choke" during the match.


----------



## monterey

>--gt--> said:


> As I previously mentioned, they are using non-contact systems at Yumenoshima, and these don’t work well in rainy weather.
> 
> The technology is discussed here: https://res.mdpi.com/d_attachment/sensors/sensors-21-03719/article_deploy/sensors-21-03719.pdf


Here's the one from MIT. It's older - before Deep Learning took off but it's probably simpler to implement. 

MIT Video Magnification
An interesting video showing it working:
Video Magnification Youtube


----------



## FerrumVeritas

aavaaz said:


> Na.. Na…na. C’mon now. Don’t backtrack your actions.,, while you have every right to state your disappointment at our loss at the Olympics, your comment on “Believe” was a new low. The least you can do is own it. Many have taken offense to that. It’s just that they shirk playing with mud. I on the other hand rejoice it.


Okay, fine. Putting out a video where you call yourself the greatest archer is as pretentious as you can get. Doing it before a big event is just asking to choke. Which he did. Twice. Clearly, visibly, publicly.

I really don’t think anyone but you is actually offended. I’d be surprised if even Brady were. My comment was rather mild.



limbwalker said:


> Accusing someone of being responsible for their team's loss without having all the facts (that you could only get from being on the team), or without giving that archer/athlete credit for their role in getting the team to that point in the first place, is in my view, choosing only to focus on the negative. What do we call people who do that?


While I appreciate your perspective, I disagree with your implication. I can’t imagine someone saying that blaming someone in hockey, baseball, football, etc., even based on speculation, would be such a faux pas.

If only those that are there can criticize, then we should shut this whole thing down.


----------



## >--gt-->

Boomer2094 said:


> Very interesting! thanks for sharing the article.
> 
> Seeing that how PPG rely on measuring the difference between diffuse and specular reflection, it wouldn't work every well in rain.
> 
> Do you guys think heart rate would be a valuable data to collect and track for Archery? I know it is for a lot of physical sport, but what about archery?


Plenty of us USAT shooters used to get stuck with needles, electrodes and even brainwave monitors (way) back in the day for these purposes. 

Two things stuck out for me- everyone in the sport is really, REALLY individual- and getting meaningful (real-world “do this”) data from the “researchers” for any sport-specific applications was surprisingly difficult, because, at least in the past, their real purpose was fodder for academic papers.

I imagine Olympics84 or Rick can confirm or refute- “Dr Death” never published anything we could actually use, to the best of my knowledge.

The primary lesson here is, if you’re going to be a guinea pig, don’t count on actual, useful, pragmatic information to come of it.

A secondary lesson is, be careful with what you DO learn- I remember a couple of USAT coaches chasing their tails when they freaked out over the apparent crazy results they were seeing from video analysis of shots, not understanding rolling shutter effect on video equipment of the time.


----------



## aavaaz

FerrumVeritas said:


> Okay, fine. Putting out a video where you call yourself the greatest archer is as pretentious as you can get. Doing it before a big event is just asking to choke. Which he did. Twice. Clearly, visibly, publicly.
> 
> I really don’t think anyone but you is actually offended. I’d be surprised if even Brady were. My comment was rather mild.


well at least I know now that you are a true man for owning that part and I also support you in that you have every right to show your frustration on how our best hope let us down. I don’t think the documentary was made recently. I could be wrong but I think it was being made for a while when Brady was in his top form. It was just released in an inopportune moment, I believe…but I could be wrong. Peace and my bad🙏


----------



## limbwalker

FerrumVeritas said:


> While I appreciate your perspective, I disagree with your implication. I can’t imagine someone saying that blaming someone in hockey, baseball, football, etc., even based on speculation, would be such a faux pas.
> 
> If only those that are there can criticize, then we should shut this whole thing down.


Oh, anyone can criticize but everyone knows who has the right to, and who doesn't. Again, see my sig line. Teddy said it best. The idea that a spectator with little to no actual investment is criticizing someone who has devoted a part of their life and countless resources to a single athletic event... well I think we all know how that looks.

As for the film, are you suggesting that film was Brady's idea? I just want to understand what you're suggesting.


----------



## chrstphr

aavaaz said:


> Just read this and even though my pedigree ‘does’ look down upon red necks and rubbish, this is too juicy not to respond to. I just found something in my inbox that frankly I did not even know existed. But before I go forward, I want to clarify, that I don’t know who you or this scumbag-GT-are and frankly don’t ever want to come across if you are ever at a competition. If you know who I am, then I recommend you stay away.
> Having made that clear, your peer -gt- , for the lack of better term, sent this message to my private box when coach lee was awarded a recommendation and I was congratulating him but you and folk of your pedigree derailed that thread as well… this throws a light on how sad and pathetic the very existence of some of you is.
> View attachment 7438975


Am i supposed to be insulted or hurt?

I am not sure what the intention of this post is. But i do think that publically sharing private messages is a no no on this forum. And you might have wanted to ask GT if he was ok with your posting his private message to you.

And i am not sure why you would post this publicly and then message it to me. I do read the thread.

Lastly, all your hatred of GT, yet you probably shoot his Easton X10 arrow that HE developed. and if you ever get to an international world archery level, he will be the one announcing the matches. He has announced the Olympics and World Cups and World champs for the last 20 years at least. 


Chris


----------



## limbwalker

Can we all just agree to stop responding to Aavaaz? It's obvious the mods are on vacation. May as well stop feeding the troll while he's waiting to be banned.


----------



## FerrumVeritas

With about four notable exceptions, everyone here is a spectator with no actual investment in the event. The event would be meaningless without us, after all.

I don’t think the film was Brady’s idea, but he certainly agreed to do it and benefitted from doing so. Whether the words were scripted or not, he still said them.

If you’re really implying that only the people who are there are allowed to have and/or voice an opinion on it, then you are misunderstanding the purpose of spectators in sport. You don’t have to share the opinion, of course.

It’s worth saying that with the possible exception of GT, no one here, regardless of past accomplishments, has any more information than anyone else. Just different perspectives. Every comment made contains a degree of speculation.

We will never really know what that expression Jack made when Brady was vocally confused about his shot really meant or what he was really thinking in that moment. Even if Jack tells us, it will be tempered by time and good (or, less likely, poor) judgement. Similarly, we won’t know if Mackenzie looked like she could chew diamonds because of her internal pressure, or her annoyance with her teammate.

But everyone watching can make inferences based on what they saw.


----------



## limbwalker

FerrumVeritas said:


> With about four notable exceptions, everyone here is a spectator with no actual investment in the event. The event would be meaningless without us, after all.
> 
> I don’t think the film was Brady’s idea, but he certainly agreed to do it and benefitted from doing so. Whether the words were scripted or not, he still said them.
> 
> If you’re really implying that only the people who are there are allowed to have and/or voice an opinion on it, then you are misunderstanding the purpose of spectators in sport. You don’t have to share the opinion, of course.
> 
> It’s worth saying that with the possible exception of GT, no one here, regardless of past accomplishments, has any more information than anyone else. Just different perspectives. Every comment made contains a degree of speculation.
> 
> We will never really know what that expression Jack made when Brady was vocally confused about his shot really meant or what he was really thinking in that moment. Even if Jack tells us, it will be tempered by time and good (or, less likely, poor) judgement. Similarly, we won’t know if Mackenzie looked like she could chew diamonds because of her internal pressure, or her annoyance with her teammate.
> 
> But everyone watching can make inferences based on what they saw.


Re-read the sig line below. I'm not implying or suggesting only those who were there are allowed to voice their opinion. That would be absurd. But Teddy knew that only a few voices matter.


----------



## aavaaz

FerrumVeritas said:


> With about four notable exceptions, everyone here is a spectator with no actual investment in the event. The event would be meaningless without us, after all.
> 
> I don’t think the film was Brady’s idea, but he certainly agreed to do it and benefitted from doing so. Whether the words were scripted or not, he still said them.
> 
> If you’re really implying that only the people who are there are allowed to have and/or voice an opinion on it, then you are misunderstanding the purpose of spectators in sport. You don’t have to share the opinion, of course.
> 
> It’s worth saying that with the possible exception of GT, no one here, regardless of past accomplishments, has any more information than anyone else. Just different perspectives. Every comment made contains a degree of speculation.
> 
> We will never really know what that expression Jack made when Brady was vocally confused about his shot really meant or what he was really thinking in that moment. Even if Jack tells us, it will be tempered by time and good (or, less likely, poor) judgement. Similarly, we won’t know if Mackenzie looked like she could chew diamonds because of her internal pressure, or her annoyance with her teammate.
> 
> But everyone watching can make inferences based on what they saw.


I want to move on from this and really go on talking about Olympics. So for give and for get. Coach Lee and I talk everyday from Tokyo. Jack has severe pain in his shoulder and cannot shoot as many arrows as Brady and Wukie do in practice. And I am amazed by his maturity that he has hidden it well and still, as you pointed out shot the best of the three. Brady is mentally too imotional and letting it get to him while Wukie is the strongest mentally. That is what Coach lee said to me over the phone. Hope this gives you and others who really were here to discuss more about the game, more insight. Peace. I’m not budding up to you. Just letting you know you will never win against certain imbeciles.

I hope Jack feels better before his matches. But I am still very proud of that kid. Truly.


----------



## >--gt-->

Speaking of matters of academic interest:









Bipolar disorder - Symptoms and causes







www.mayoclinic.org


----------



## rsarns

Thinking he needs a snickers….


----------



## Draven Olary

Crispin has a long hold but he manages to get 9-10s with it. That’s very interesting.


----------



## limbwalker

Draven Olary said:


> Crispin has a long hold but he manages to get 9-10s with it. That’s very interesting.


Butch was the same way.


----------



## aavaaz

Draven Olary said:


> Crispin has a long hold but he manages to get 9-10s with it. That’s very interesting.


I am so glad he made it. I have never seen Crispin that baffled. I believe it’s the environment but good for him to have moved onto the next match


----------



## lameduck

Draven Olary said:


> Crispin has a long hold but he manages to get 9-10s with it. That’s very interesting.


He does a lot of gym workouts.


----------



## nakedape

Stash said:


> Respectfully request that you move this and any personal squabbling to another thread, and leave this one for discussion about the actual competition.


LOL, my post regarding the Canadian archer is deleted, while half of this thread is not about the actual competition.

You can try to ignore the issue, but trust me, it will blow up one day, and everyone will sit around pointing fingers.

i.e. look what happened with USA Fencing this Olympic, what a bad PR for that sport. How many parents would want to send their daughters to do fencing after that incident?


----------



## Boomer2094

Congrats to Mr. Duenas on his wins today! he moves on to the round of 16.

He is going up against Kahllund next, who knocked JD Kim out in the round of 32. It should be an very interesting match.

Also, I'm glad to see that Mauro Nespoli made it into round of 16.


----------



## FerrumVeritas

Okay, hang on: why is Coach Lee messaging archers not present every day while at the Olympics? Surely he has better things to focus on.

Something smells.


----------



## limbwalker

Anyone care to make predictions at this point? Too soon?


----------



## Draven Olary

lameduck said:


> He does a lot of gym workouts.


The way he is managing the mental part is the most impressive. It would have been interesting to see his heart beating ratio too - willing to bet he is a low blood pressure type by nature.


----------



## Draven Olary

Boomer2094 said:


> Also, I'm glad to see that Mauro Nespoli made it into round of 16.


I think he made one "bad" shot in his match - the heavy arrow shot from heavy bow helped. I hope he keeps up under the sun.


----------



## autura

aavaaz said:


> I want to move on from this and really go on talking about Olympics. So for give and for get. Coach Lee and I talk everyday from Tokyo. Jack has severe pain in his shoulder and cannot shoot as many arrows as Brady and Wukie do in practice. And I am amazed by his maturity that he has hidden it well and still, as you pointed out shot the best of the three. Brady is mentally too imotional and letting it get to him while Wukie is the strongest mentally. That is what Coach lee said to me over the phone. Hope this gives you and others who really were here to discuss more about the game, more insight. Peace. I’m not budding up to you. Just letting you know you will never win against certain imbeciles.
> 
> I hope Jack feels better before his matches. But I am still very proud of that kid. Truly.


So your leaking knowledge to a forum that is more than likely read by the USA opponents and could lead to an advantage for the USA opponents. GJ/


----------



## Boomer2094

limbwalker said:


> Anyone care to make predictions at this point? Too soon?


Normally I would say Crispin has this one in the bag, provided that he hit all this shots... But Florian DID knock out JD Kim, the #1 ranked archer coming out of the ranking round. If Florian can repeat his performance against Crispin on Saturday, I think Florian would come out on top based on the end scores both archer shot in their previous matches. 



Draven Olary said:


> I think he made one "bad" shot in his match - the heavy arrow shot from heavy bow helped. I hope he keeps up under the sun.


I wonder, if Mauro get deep into the elimination rounds or better yet, medal, would it spark archers around the country to go heavy draw weight?


----------



## >--gt-->

So, it might be amusing to revisit the “WA expert panel” predictions from just before the start of the Games, published on July 22, and reflect on how some of these predictions turned out:

*4. Who is your favourite to win in Tokyo? *
George: It comes down to who can handle the incredibly sapping heat and humidity of Tokyo, the inevitable wind and weather and the pressure. Korea, the experienced USA men, Mexico’s women – and I really think we will see something special from Japan here.

Chris: The youngest archer in Tokyo, Kim Je Deok of Korea, and Mexico’s Ana Vazquez. The Korean women to extend their undefeated streak in the team event, married couple Atanu Das and Deepika Kumari in the mixed – and I have absolutely no idea in the men’s team event. It’s wide open.

Andrea: The perfect endings to this season’s stories would be for Brady Ellison or Deepika Kumari to rise to Olympic glory. If not individually, in the team or mixed team events.

Nicky: Deepika Kumari enters the Olympics for the second time as the world number one. But in London 2012, she was beaten in the first round. Rio was full of problems, but she’s come back so strongly, attending stage one and stage three of this year's international circuit and winning both. In fact, she left Paris with individual, team and mixed team gold. It doesn’t get any better than that.

John: There’s been a lot of talk about the Chinese Taipei women’s team and their chances of beating the Koreans again. People sometimes forget the Taipei men’s record against the Korean men is actually better in recent years – including at the Asian Games in 2018. They could do a lot of damage. I also hope host Japan get something this year. They’ve been a little forgotten about, and they could make something happen.

———

_Not one of us_ anticipated the stunning win from Florian Unruh — and THAT is why we play the game.


----------



## limbwalker

Boomer2094 said:


> Normally I would say Crispin has this one in the bag, provided that he hit all this shots... But Florian DID knock out JD Kim, the #1 ranked archer coming out of the ranking round. If Florian can repeat his performance against Crispin on Saturday, I think Florian would come out on top based on the end scores both archer shot in their previous matches.
> 
> 
> I wonder, if Mauro get deep into the elimination rounds or better yet, medal, would it spark archers around the country to go heavy draw weight?


I am in agreement in both cases.


----------



## Draven Olary

Boomer2094 said:


> I wonder, if Mauro get deep into the elimination rounds or better yet, medal, would it spark archers around the country to go heavy draw weight?


I thought the same thing. It was obvious in his 1on1 the advantage he had. But on the other hand, one thing is to go up in weight and another thing is actually be able to shoot at high level the weight. Shooting heavy in somewhat extreme temperatures will deplete you quicker - I just wish him the stamina to get to the medals round.


----------



## >--gt-->

FerrumVeritas said:


> Okay, hang on: why is Coach Lee messaging archers not present every day while at the Olympics? Surely he has better things to focus on.
> 
> Something smells.


I did give Kisik the courtesy of letting him know what’s happening with his, no doubt, private conversations. Along with a few other screenshots.

He certainly deserves to know what kind of people purport to be his friend.


----------



## Boomer2094

Draven Olary said:


> I thought the same thing. It was obvious in his 1on1 the advantage he had. But on the other hand, one thing is to go up in weight and another thing is actually be able to shoot at high level the weight. Shooting heavy in somewhat extreme temperatures will deplete you quicker - I just wish him the stamina to get to the medals round.


Good point, not everyone can handle shooting as high of poundage that Mauro shoots... but the advantage is real. And for the big-n-strong archers, it may provide them the edge they needed to finally get ahead of the competition.

It will takes some time - heck, a lot of times - to step up from 40# to 50# or 60 # and to be able to have the power to control it and endurance to shoot it in multi-day tournaments. But for those people who are still fairly young (20's to 30's) and they can - and willing - to dedicate time and effort to step up in draw weight, I don't think it's that far of a stretch to see more Mauro Nespoli - like archer in the future, especially in Europe and North America.

I don't foresee that trend happening in Asia, because - not being racist in any way - Asian archers are not usually big in bone structure and muscle mass. They shoot the weight they can comfortably control, and form trumps power in most cases. But there could be exception, who knows?


----------



## >--gt-->

Well, someone’s certainly lost.


----------



## Hikari

I come here to learn about shooting arrows, not throwing insults.

_(Although, to be honest, the member in question does not seem to be good at either...)_


----------



## Ray.L

Boomer2094 said:


> I wonder, if Mauro get deep into the elimination rounds or better yet, medal, would it spark archers around the country to go heavy draw weight?


I don't think so. Mauro has been shooting high poundage to good results for a number of years now, and if there was going to be enough influence to get others to try, I think it would've started to show up already. Unless people have been trying in practice and didn't find the results he's been getting.


----------



## Metropolis

Mete Gazoz
10th at qualification which is a good place without beeing in the light (pressure).
High scorer: 697, 698.
Already won (Berlin 2019, Mediterranean games 2018), 
already failed (European silver in 2016).
22 yo… carefree.

Kahllundruh? He shot a really bad bronze medal match during the last Europan championship. He's a great shooter with a strong experience so no doubt he could win a second tour against Kim JD, but frankly I can't imagine him to win the gold. Hope for him I'm wrong.

Crispin Duenas was already on my list for a podium, he deserves.
Atanu Das also but after his 35th place confidence is probably lost.
Nespoli why not (podium).

K.Woojin, Brady Ellison, Oh Jin Hyek... this would make history.


----------



## >--gt-->

Remember, Mauro is using high poundage as a sort of bandaid for other issues he has and has acknowledged. If you have the shot of, say, HirokI Muto, you really don’t need to go up 10 lbs because you don’t have the problem Mauro is trying to mask in the first place.


----------



## MrPillow

aavaaz said:


> Fair question. He is my best friend. He is also not my coach. We have been friends for over three years. Our relationship is not that of a student and teacher and we are also of the same age. I arch for fun, and could care less about the politics. What you are smelling is you own lack of understanding an low IQ


Not your coach? Interesting. The letter he wrote, signed and sent to the Village Trustees of Barrington Hills about your practice regiment last year states "Vikram Chandel has been a TeamUSA archer under my coaching and direction..."

We really need the matches to start back up so there's better background fodder 😅


----------



## woof156

FerrumVeritas said:


> And Brady cost the US both the mixed team and men’s matches. He took Jack’s head out of the game. He visibly added pressure to Mackenzie. Not just his shooting, which certainly shook them, but the way he was on the line. He couldn’t shake off a bad shot.
> .


Hard to say but we have had several disappointments in these Olympics..... but don't we in every Olympics??-- our expectation/hopes/wishes sometimes don't pan out. Brady is a fantastic archer, has accomplished things most of us could never dream of-- machines break, people slip...disappointed yeah but I am glad that I only have to watch this and not live it...


----------



## MrPillow

woof156 said:


> Hard to say but we have had several disappointments in these Olympics..... but don't we in every Olympics??-- our expectation/hopes/wishes sometimes don't pan out. Brady is a fantastic archer, has accomplished things most of us could never dream of-- machines break, people slip...disappointed yeah but I am glad that I only have to watch this and not live it...


Yes we certainly have the easy job from the outside looking in... I am disappointed in some of the results so far, and surprised by others. I don't think any less of any of the people involved, this is all just carnival entertainment for me, but it would have been nice to see some USA golds.


----------



## lameduck

MrPillow said:


> Not your coach? Interesting. The letter he wrote, signed and sent to the Village Trustees of Barrington Hills about your practice regiment last year states "Vikram Chandel has been a TeamUSA archer under my coaching and direction..."
> 
> We really need the matches to start back up so there's better background fodder 😅


That's so embarrassing. And we know his real name.


----------



## autura

aavaaz said:


> Another 1 in 10. I thought I had over-hunted my quota and was running out of low IQ. I’m glad you popped your head out of your hole…Let the hunt begin.





aavaaz said:


> Another 1 in 10. I thought I had over-hunted my quota and was running out of low IQ. I’m glad you popped your head out of your hole…Let the hunt begin.


You leaking what can be consider highly sensitive information about the mental and physical state of the USA archery team on a public forum, which can be read by anyone. At worse its naïve to use your "clout" with Coach Lee, to attempt impress, which I propose is the reason you are making the post. Or at worse it be viewed as an attempt to undermine the USA archers in an event that they and Coach Lee have been preparing for years, by giving access to information for use by the opponents. Zero respect. 


However I do tend to live by the Hanlons Razor "*never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity* " --- We know what applies in your case Aavaaz... take the internet clout you value so much and move on. 

Come Hunt Fool! internet cloud dont work in real life


----------



## josh_gml

Since we are already throwing around prediction i wanna chime in. 

Of cause i would like to see Florian in a medal match but that is a steep hill he has to climb, not impossible but steep. In Rio Florian Floto went all the way to the third round, which Unruh is in right now. Lets see if he can one up Floto.

I really would like to see an Aussi, Dutch or Indian archer progress to the medal rounds. All of them can shoot cracking matches. Remember the bronze match in Medellin 2019, where Sjef went toe to toe with Kim? That is till one of my all time favourite matches to watch. 


I really hope we can watch some more high score matches in Tokyo. Maybe its the venue, maybe the lack of competition in the past year. 
Heres hoping.


----------



## limbwalker

woof156 said:


> Hard to say but we have had several disappointments in these Olympics..... but don't we in every Olympics??-- *our expectation/hopes/wishes sometimes don't pan out*. Brady is a fantastic archer, has accomplished things most of us could never dream of-- machines break, people slip...disappointed yeah but I am glad that I only have to watch this and not live it...


There are some good reasons our expectations are out of line with reality. I offered one reason earlier in this thread.


----------



## >--gt-->

Meanwhile, Oh Jin-hyek is blowing up all over Korean social media- the video of him launching the last arrow to win the team round, with the microphone catching him saying “it’s over” with the arrow still in the air, is proving hugely popular In the mainstream. 

He’s the Usian Bolt of our sport.


----------



## Vittorio

Jerome Trouillet on Facebook has posted this simple interesting analysis that may predict who will win the Olympic Games for Men and who will not. 
First in the ranking round has never won, confirmed in Tokyo
Second in the ranking round has never won, may change in Tokyo?
Four have won starting from the third place
No one has won two times, yet


----------



## FerrumVeritas

I’m really pulling for strong performances from Sjef and Jack. We’ll see. I still expect at least one Korean medalist.
On the Women’s side Roman was an upset I didn’t expect.


----------



## iceman747

FerrumVeritas said:


> I’m really pulling for strong performances from Sjef and Jack. We’ll see. I still expect at least one Korean medalist.
> On the Women’s side Roman was an upset I didn’t expect.


I didn't watch the match, but Roman shot a 3 on her last shot (would have split with a 9 or won the set with a 10). Did anyone see what happened?


----------



## >--gt-->

Vittorio said:


> No one has won two times, yet


Vito: One correction- Darrell Pace has won the Olympic Archery Championship twice, and remains the only person to have done it, so far.


(In other news, I have received a text back from Tokyo, and expect the situation we have been dealing with to be adjusted- soon.)


----------



## limbwalker

>--gt--> said:


> Vito: One correction- Darrell Pace has won the Olympic Archery Championship twice, and remains the only person to have done it, so far.


And was one boycott away from three, in everyone's opinion.


----------



## >--gt-->

iceman747 said:


> I didn't watch the match, but Roman shot a 3 on her last shot (would have split with a 9 or won the set with a 10). Did anyone see what happened?


This link is the simplest, fastest way to see which women are still competing.



https://www.ianseo.net/TourData/2021/6301/IFRW.pdf?time=2021-07-27+06%3A59%3A57



And here’s the one for the men.



https://www.ianseo.net/TourData/2021/6301/IFRM.pdf?time=2021-07-27+06%3A47%3A28


----------



## nakedape

FerrumVeritas said:


> On the Women’s side Roman was an upset I didn’t expect.


and Tan Ya-Ting of Taiwan (aka Chinese Taipei, aka bs politics, aka John Cena dui bu qi, aka NBC map of China, aka NJK oops, aka Twitter Taiwan flag emoji )


----------



## Hikari

Vittorio said:


> Jerome Trouillet on Facebook has posted this simple interesting analysis that may predict who will win the Olympic Games for Men and who will not.
> First in the ranking round has never won, confirmed in Tokyo
> Second in the ranking round has never won, may change in Tokyo?
> Four have won starting from the third place
> No one has won two times, yet
> 
> 
> View attachment 7439150


I think an interesting analysis would be to compare ranking scores with bracket scores. The rankings would be a good indicator of average ability over a large sample, the brackets would factor in ability under pressure. It would also be interesting to compare individual performance to team performance. It might be possible to make stronger teams and better individual picks. Obviously, simply taking the top ranking scorers for a team does not always result in the strongest team. Basing individual performance on ranking or qualifying shoots with lots of arrows, might not prove the best strategy for choosing archers either as the brackets are more important than the ranking performance.


----------



## Ray.L

nakedape said:


> and Tan Ya-Ting of Taiwan (aka Chinese Taipei, aka bs politics, aka John Cena dui bu qi, aka NBC map of China, aka NJK oops, aka Twitter Taiwan flag emoji )


I'm not gonna lie, I enjoyed watching Taiwan defeat the PRC in the mens team quarters.


----------



## jlocke

>--gt--> said:


> … the video of him launching the last arrow to win the team round, with the microphone catching him saying “it’s over” with the arrow still in the air …


Thank you for posting this.

It offers valuable insight into the mind and awareness of an elite-level, winning archer.

Out of all the puzzling childish animosity in this thread there are, now and then, some really valuable and appreciated insights. As one new to the sport (where, until now, I had only witnessed amazing sportsmanship) your insights are very valuable. Thank you!


----------



## monterey

>--gt--> said:


> Meanwhile, Oh Jin-hyek is blowing up all over Korean social media- the video of him launching the last arrow to win the team round, with the microphone catching him saying “it’s over” with the arrow still in the air, is proving hugely popular In the mainstream.
> 
> He’s the Usian Bolt of our sport.


The audio is much better after the women's team finals. 
There were two directional mics on the ground past the circular camera track pointing back at the archers. It looks like the cooling fans on the cameras were going full blast due to the heat, so it sounded like someone running a shop vac everytime the cameras wheeled past the microphones. The next day the two mics disappeared, possibly placed behind the archers.
We can now hear them talking much more clearly than most other tournaments since there is no crowd noise.


----------



## >--gt-->

Ray.L said:


> I'm not gonna lie, I enjoyed watching Taiwan defeat the PRC in the mens team quarters.


In 1936, the founder of the modern Games, Pierre de Coubertin, took a lot of heat for not acknowledging the Nazi regime’s evils by blocking the then-proposed US boycott of the Games, and seemingly, allowing those Games to be co-opted by the Nazi government for propaganda purposes. 

Now, not long after those Games, at which James Cleveland Owens served up the best possible refutation of the ideology being pushed by the hosts, de Coubertin observed:



> Today, politics is making its way into the heart of every issue. How can we expect athletics, the culture of the muscles, and Olympism itself to be immune? Yet the ravages that this phenomenon can cause lie merely on the surface. In reality, there are almost always two forms of evolution in an institution: the evolution of appearances, and the evolution of the soul. The first tries to adapt to current trends, and changes according to the whims of fashion. The second remains as steadfast as the principles on which the institution is based. It evolves slowly and healthily, in conformity with the laws of humanity itself. Olympism falls within the second of these categories.”


Now, while I do understand your satisfaction at Taiwan beating China in that match, which quite frankly, I share, the other side of that coin is how some athletes and non-endemic influencers choose to use the Games to promote their “social commentary of the month”. 

We have seen how this can backfire (USA women’s soccer) and we have seen how it can be a positive thing (Brady’s recent comments to media on this subject come to mind).

At the end of the day, it would be better if we could put aside these lesser-angel-driven reactions for the two weeks of the Games. I don’t know about you, but I could use a break from:

BLM/Antifa/AlexJones/AOC/BisonManAtTheCapitol/AntiVax/AntiMask/FaucciLies/DefundThePolice/BackTheBlue/ChinaVsTaiwan/PutinPoisonsAnotherDissident/KiSikIsMyBestFriendAndHeHatesYou…

And so forth, Ad astra.

Just for two weeks.


----------



## limbwalker

>--gt--> said:


> In 1936, the founder of the modern Games, Pierre de Coubertin, took a lot of heat for not acknowledging the Nazi regime’s evils by blocking the then-proposed US boycott of the Games, and seemingly, allowing those Games to be co-opted by the Nazi government for propaganda purposes.
> 
> Now, not long after those Games, at which James Cleveland Owens served up the best possible refutation of the ideology being pushed by the hosts, de Coubertin observed:
> 
> 
> 
> Now, while I do understand your satisfaction at Taiwan beating China in that match, which quite frankly, I share, the other side of that coin is how some athletes and non-endemic influencers choose to use the Games to promote their “social commentary of the month”.
> 
> We have seen how this can backfire (USA women’s soccer) and we have seen how it can be a positive thing (Brady’s recent comments to media on this subject come to mind).
> 
> At the end of the day, it would be better if we could put aside these lesser-angel-driven reactions for the two weeks of the Games. I don’t know about you, but I could use a break from:
> 
> BLM/Antifa/AlexJones/AOC/BisonManAtTheCapitol/AntiVax/AntiMask/FaucciLies/DefundThePolice/BackTheBlue/ChinaVsTaiwan/PutinPoisonsAnotherDissident/KiSikIsMyBestFriendAndHeHatesYou…
> 
> And so forth, Ad astra.
> 
> Just for two weeks.


Not sure gt and I have ever been in such agreement. Bravo sir.


----------



## Hikari

We have two weeks every four years to celebrate excellence in human athletic ability. We, unfortunately, will not miss anything: the world we return to will be very much the same as we left it. None of the nations competing are perfect, but that does not mean we can't enjoy and celebrate their champions. And celebrating the defeat of an athlete for nationalistic reasons is going to accomplish what? An entrenched position? Perhaps we can achieve more through praise than shame. Just a thought...


----------



## limbwalker

Hikari said:


> We have two weeks every four years to celebrate excellence in human athletic ability. We, unfortunately, will not miss anything: the world we return to will be very much the same as we left it. None of the nations competing are perfect, but that does not mean we can't enjoy and celebrate their champions. And celebrating the defeat of an athlete for nationalistic reasons is going to accomplish what? An entrenched position? Perhaps we can achieve more through praise than shame. Just a thought...


An admirable thought indeed.


----------



## nakedape




----------



## Gregjlongbow

I just really hope Brady wins. Is that ok to say? 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## limbwalker

Gregjlongbow said:


> I just really hope Brady wins. Is that ok to say?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I hope so because I feel the same way!


----------



## Doughman

Let's talk about An San's shooting. I enjoy watch her shot execution; just like watching a good Kendo Men strike or a Judo Ippon.
Do you know who shoot like her in US, men and women?
Besides shooting form, from looking this young lady's self control and demeanor, I am guessing she has a deep traditional family background.


----------



## Stash

Holy crap, anyone see that? Vikstrom of Finland - His limb broke while at full draw.

Tough way to lose a match.


----------



## tassie_devil

Wow, not the product placement Hoyt would be looking for. I thought you got time out for equipment failure.

Would have liked to see Kharul not shoot his arrow. Thoughts?


----------



## chrstphr

Wow, first limb failure i have seen on a world level. I think that shows that having a spare bow is pretty much useless unless your bow fails after your last shot. With only 20 seconds to shoot a shot, there is no time to change the bow.

The Malaysian guy had a chance to be a huge sportsmanship class act and not shoot his third arrow. He was probably going to win the set anyway. I know its the Olympics and much is at stake, but also i would want to win because i shot better, not win because my opponent's bow broke.

Chris


----------



## limbwalker

tassie_devil said:


> Wow, not the product placement Hoyt would be looking for. I thought you got time out for equipment failure.
> 
> Would have liked to see Kharul not shoot his arrow. Thoughts?


Not in matchplay. That's why the 2nd bow is right behind you.


----------



## limbwalker

chrstphr said:


> Wow, first limb failure i have seen on a world level. I think that shows that having a spare bow is pretty much useless unless your bow fails after your last shot. With only 20 seconds to shoot a shot, there is no time to change the bow.
> 
> The Malaysian guy had a chance to be a huge sportsmanship class act and not shoot his third arrow. He was probably going to win the set anyway. I know its the Olympics and much is at stake, but also i would want to win because i shot better, not win because my opponent's bow broke.
> 
> Chris


He was probably just as shocked tbh.


----------



## FerrumVeritas

I feel like you should get an extra 10s once per match if you have equipment failure.


----------



## chrstphr

I also feel you should get the chance to shoot the shot. Not the archer's fault the equipment failed. 

Chris


----------



## tassie_devil

limbwalker said:


> He was probably just as shocked tbh.


I agree with Chris, but you're probably right. He'd rightfully be super focused on his own side of the track, so I'm not trying to make a character judgement. But would have been nice to see a let down...


----------



## limbwalker

chrstphr said:


> I also feel you should get the chance to shoot the shot. Not the archer's fault the equipment failed.
> 
> Chris


I agree with this.


----------



## Stash

Going to have to disagree with you on both counts, Chris.

A spare bow didn’t help in this particular case, but what if he’d noticed a crack in the limb between ends? He could go to the backup before the disaster.

As for the sportsmanship, nope. This is the big times, and having your equipment in perfect shape is a part of the game. If he didn’t shoot the last arrow and the Finn had come back with an 8 or better with his backup bow, game over for Mohamad.


----------



## limbwalker

Stash said:


> Going to have to disagree with you on both counts, Chris.
> 
> A spare bow didn’t help in this particular case, but what if he’d noticed a crack in the limb between ends? He could go to the backup before the disaster.
> 
> As for the sportsmanship, nope. This is the big times, and having your equipment in perfect shape is a part of the game. If he didn’t shoot the last arrow and the Finn had come back with an 8 or better with his backup bow, game over for Mohamad.


Boy you can be a hardas$ sometimes Stash.  Having your equipment in perfect shape, and knowing your equipment is going to fail are two completely different things. How is an archer supposed to know their limbs are going to fail? In 2012, there is no way I could have figured out the carbon layer in my limbs had a hairline crack until it was way too late. Should a cyclist know their bike frame is going to crack? Should a skier know their binding is going to fail? I am sorry, but I'm just not following you here.


----------



## FerrumVeritas

The wrist flip Wu Jiaxin does occasionally makes me nervous.


----------



## Stash

John, what sport allows do-overs for when your equipment fails? I can’t see every NASCAR driver pulling over and waiting while Bubba fixes a flat. Bicyclists can grab a backup, but they don’t get their lost time back. I don’t know what the rule is for skiers, but frankly I doubt if they get to restart if a ski falls off.

Yeah, I know, archers can get extra time during the ranking round.

Then you get into all sorts of issues as to what constitutes a legitimate equipment failure that would warrant a do-over or extra time. Broken rest? Bent clicker? Cracked nock? Vane came off?

I seem to recall Tonya Harding getting a do-over when her skate lace came undone, but there are not many situations at the top levels in any sport where you get another chance when YOUR equipment fails.

I’m sure that there actually are more cases than I thought of. But we all know the match play rules, and you can’t change the rule on the spot because you feel sorry for the guy.


----------



## tassie_devil

Whatever about the previous match, I hope Kharul can focus on the present and isn't having the same debate we are here internally. It's be a pity for a limb failure to take two archers out. 😉


----------



## limbwalker

Stash said:


> John, what sport allows do-overs when your equipment fails? I can’t see every NASCAR driver pulling over and waiting while Bubba fixes a flat. Bicyclists can grab a backup, but they don’t get their lost time back. I don’t know what the rule is for skiers, but frankly I doubt if they get to restart if a ski falls off.
> 
> Then you get into all sorts of issues as to what constitutes a legitimate equipment failure hat would warrant a do-over. Broken rest? Bent clicker? Cracked nock? Vane came off?
> 
> I seem to recall Tonya Harding getting a do-over when her skate lace came undone, but not many situations at the top levels in any sport where you get another chance when YOUR equipment fails.


I hear you. It could be a judge's nightmare alright. But damn boy!


----------



## Stash

Completely random thought, fueled by Scotch...

The Japanese word for “eight” is “hachi”, and when an archer shoots an 8, it sounds to me like the announcer is sneezing.

😄


----------



## FerrumVeritas

I really like the format for TV. You get a bit of a narrative and to see an archer heat up, rather than them only shooting once a day.


----------



## tassie_devil

Too early here for whisky. 😢


----------



## Stash

I will name you an honorary Canadian for this brief period of time, so you can go ahead and have one now.

I’m allowed to do that for Aussies - David Barnes’ mum Clare is a Facebook friend.


----------



## Draven Olary

Stash said:


> Completely random thought, fueled by Scotch...
> 
> The Japanese word for “eight” is “hachi”, and when an archer shoots an 8, it sounds to me like the announcer is sneezing.
> 
> 😄


Luckily seven is not often because I would wonder what would you think of when you hear “nana”


----------



## FerrumVeritas

Draven Olary said:


> Luckily seven is not often because I would wonder what would you think of when you hear “nana”


I always remember that one because "7 is shaped like a banana"


----------



## Hikari

Stash said:


> Completely random thought, fueled by Scotch...
> 
> The Japanese word for “eight” is “hachi”, and when an archer shoots an 8, it sounds to me like the announcer is sneezing.
> 
> 😄


Well, German archers must be confused shooting in the US when the announcer calls out "Nein"!

Of course, in Japanese, the English "Ten" means "heaven"!!


----------



## Hikari

Draven Olary said:


> Luckily seven is not often because I would wonder what would you think of when you hear “nana”


Hopefully, no one is getting an ichy knee (ichi, ni)


----------



## Draven Olary

Right on Hikari. Or after a shoot you are told Go! (Five)


----------



## Stash

My favorite archery number thing: the answer to the ultimate question of life, the universe and everything is, of course, 42.

But, are you aware that, in binary, 42 is 10 10 10?


----------



## chrstphr

Shanny of Isreal is shooting very well. 


Chris


----------



## FerrumVeritas

That is an incredible upset!


----------



## tassie_devil

Stash said:


> My favorite archery number thing: the answer to the ultimate question of life, the universe and everything is, of course, 42.
> 
> But, are you aware that, in binary, 42 is 10 10 10?


Nice - never had thought of that. Douglas Adams may have been an archer!


----------



## Doughman

It is surprised to me that they have rather high heart beat rate for both men and women. 
I remembered Korean competition simulation showed some low heart beat rate readings.


----------



## FerrumVeritas

I don't care which way the wind is blowing, you can't shoot a 7 against a Korean woman and hope to win.


----------



## Ray.L

Wow, Jang Minhee's 2nd set.


----------



## FerrumVeritas

Itay Shanny is on impressive form right now.


----------



## limbwalker

Ray.L said:


> Wow, Jang Minhee's 2nd set.
> View attachment 7439331


No defense against that.


----------



## FerrumVeritas

The wind seems to be favoring Japan right now.


----------



## chrstphr

Great match with Miki Nakamura knocking off one of the Jang Minhee. 

Second Korean to not make the cut to 16. 

Chris


----------



## FerrumVeritas

chrstphr said:


> Great match with Miki Nakamura knocking off one of the Jang Minhee.
> 
> Second Korean to not make the cut to 16.
> 
> Chris


Didn't Korea change the rules around gold medal payouts? You can't double dip or something...


----------



## Stash

Couple of them have already double dipped.


----------



## iceman747

Wow, I hope that second set doesn't come back to haunt Kaufhold...


----------



## mdyan

>--gt--> said:


> Remember, Mauro is using high poundage as a sort of bandaid for other issues he has and has acknowledged. If you have the shot of, say, HirokI Muto, you really don’t need to go up 10 lbs because you don’t have the problem Mauro is trying to mask in the first place.


Could you elaborate on what these issues are and why Muto's shot is "better"?


----------



## chrstphr

FerrumVeritas said:


> Didn't Korea change the rules around gold medal payouts? You can't double dip or something...


Only for the pension. You win a gold medal, you get a lifelong pension. They changed it after Kim SooNyung won too many golds.

For any gold medals, Asian games, world champs, Olympics etc they get cash. From 100K to 300K US.
Team golds pay less than individual gold medals. Olympics pays more than Asian games or World Champs.

I dont think world cup wins give them cash. They dont seem to value the world cup the same as the other three. But i could be wrong.

Chris


----------



## woof156

Casey's 6 she caught her string on her arm guard which indicates an alignment issue. Casey has an hyper extendable elbow which puts her arm in harms way sometime..but she move on congrat Casey!! At least she had no one in her head but but her.. she is a great archer for her age... keep it up Casey.


----------



## limbwalker

woof156 said:


> Casey's 6 she caught her string on her arm guard which indicates an alignment issue. Casey has an hyper extendable elbow which puts her arm in harms way sometime..but she move on congrat Casey!! * At least she had no one in her head but but her.*. she is a great archer for her age... keep it up Casey.


As it should be. She's a very strong, mature young woman.


----------



## chrstphr

mdyan said:


> Could you elaborate on what these issues are and why Muto's shot is "better"?


In my opinion,
his release is not good and his hand flings out from his face. but the poundage rips the string from his fingers removing some of the effects from it. Patrick Houston had some slomo on Facebook of Mauro's release and commented the same.

Chris


----------



## limbwalker

chrstphr said:


> In my opinion,
> his release is not good *and his hand flings out from his face*. but the poundage rips the string from his fingers removing some of the effects from it. Patrick Houston had some slomo on Facebook of Mauro's release and commented the same.
> 
> Chris


LOL you crack me up.


----------



## chrstphr

a lot of shoot offs. 

Chris


----------



## chrstphr

limbwalker said:


> LOL you crack me up.


I was a lot nicer than Patrick's critique. Lol.

George may know different issues than that, but the slo mo i saw, his release was terrible.

Chris


----------



## limbwalker

Always with the release...


----------



## chrstphr

I am really impressed with team Japan's shooting. Men's side and women's side. Especially the newer archers.

They have upped their game since Rio. They may be the ones to rival Korea instead of China and Chinese Taipei. 

Chris


----------



## >--gt-->

FerrumVeritas said:


> The wind seems to be favoring Japan right now.


there’s a bit of history behind that phenomenon.


----------



## Ray.L

Divine wind, indeed. Furukawa moves on.


----------



## Vittorio

>--gt--> said:


> Vito: One correction- Darrell Pace has won the Olympic Archery Championship twice, and remains the only person to have done it, so far.
> 
> 
> (In other news, I have received a text back from Tokyo, and expect the situation we have been dealing with to be adjusted- soon.)


George, I was referring to the Olympic Games with matches or at least with a final round (1988, Grand Fita Round) mentioned in the table. 
Clearly, the answer is that the favorite is OH


----------



## >--gt-->

Vittorio said:


> George, I was referring to the Olympic Games with matches or at least with a final round (1988, Grand Fita Round) mentioned in the table.
> Clearly, the answer is that the favorite is OH


Easy enough to understand and of course I know you know, but some people might not.


----------



## FerrumVeritas

>--gt--> said:


> there’s a bit of history behind that phenomenon.


I was alluding to that, yes


----------



## iceman747

>--gt--> said:


> Easy enough to understand and of course I know you know, but some people might not.


You on archery talk between ends? 😁


----------



## tassie_devil

Predictable, the kiwi guy commenting on our stream says, "You can't really win when you start with a five" - queue 8-8-8 vs 5-10-10...😆

But yes, I guess you don't see it every day.


----------



## >--gt-->

15-17 mph winds as I write this. Getting sporty.


----------



## tassie_devil

>--gt--> said:


> 15-17 mph winds as I write this. Getting sporty.


Yeah, Sjef and JCV is like watching a car crash. It's more windy here, but I only have to watch...

Are you the one who calls the scores after each arrow?


----------



## chrstphr

I love how they use a photo of archery to head the Yahoo article. According to it, You just need a $2000 bow and 4 years and you can be at the Olympics.



https://www.yahoo.com/lifestyle/olympic-sport-could-normal-person-175439848.html



They have no idea how hard it is to hold that heavy poundage completely still to compete and how heavy an Olympic bow is fully accessorized. 

Chris


----------



## >--gt-->

tassie_devil said:


> Yeah, Sjef and JCV is like watching a car crash. It's more windy here, but I only have to watch...
> 
> Are you the one who calls the scores after each arrow?


oh hell no. I can say “10” more than one way.


----------



## Lumis17

Would love to see more slow-motion shots of the arrows to see how the winds are effecting them. They’ve shown a few earlier on.

Wish this started a couple hours earlier; not sure I can make all the matches.


----------



## woof156

Just watching reruns and saw the Finnish archer break his limbs in mid shot-- that is why people bring two bows to the comp eh? Hoyt


----------



## SHPoet

woof156 said:


> Just watching reruns and saw the Finnish archer break his limbs in mid shot-- that is why people bring two bows to the comp eh? Hoyt


That was WILD!!

Most of the archers I have seen bringing two bows are shooting W&W. Brady only brought one to a couple of the events.


----------



## limbwalker

Makes one wonder what he'll be shooting next year.


----------



## limbwalker

Jennifer lost by only a single point in the final set to Kumari. I hope she takes a lot of confidence from that performance.


----------



## Boomer2094

limbwalker said:


> Makes one wonder what he'll be shooting next year.


I don't think it would be what he was shooting... confidence in your gear is very important for archers competing at high level, and having limb break WHILE you are shooting in Olympics does not inspire a lot of confidence, I would imagine.



limbwalker said:


> Jennifer lost by only a single point in the final set to Kumari. I hope she takes a lot of confidence from that performance.


That is amazing performance against one of the World's best female archer! She has nothing to be ashamed of. And I hope she builds on this experience and get better for the future.


----------



## woof156

Did notice that Brady brought a second bow out this time.


----------



## Ray.L

I guess seeing Vikstrom's bow dramatically fail perked him up.


----------



## UK_Stretch

limbwalker said:


> Always with the release...


Maybe I’m missing something here but in the WA video Mauro said explicitly that he went up poundage because his release was iffy (can’t remember the exact words probably “not so good”). Horses mouth Etc.

Anyway… An San. To my eye (and very limited viewpoints we have) she has the best form of anyone at the current games and probably since Soo-Nyung Kim in 1992. I could watch that all day. None of this pfaffing about for 10 secs at full draw. Hits face, 2, 3… and its gone. Is her ten count any less because she aims less? I don’t have the stats but it doesn‘t look that way.

Go Oh… love watching that guy shoot  Chalk and cheese to An San but fun all the same.

Stretch


----------



## limbwalker

I was simply pointing out how obsessed OR archers and coaches are with the "perfect release" when it's only part of the shot and the other hand is influencing the arrow long after the string has been released. Also, most folks are seeing the follow-through, and not the actual release, but don't realize the difference.


----------



## Stash

Someone posted this on a thread on Mutantville. Seems appropriate here.


----------



## SHPoet

Is anyone else having problems with the live web feed? It has been really falkey and down right strange. The kept rerunning one men's and one women's match last night.


----------



## woof156

from the peanut gallery I would argue that both release and bow hand are major and equally important they are the two point where we affect the arrow. It seems a lot of people have the slightest drop of the bow hand too early and micrometers at that distance have consequences and errors in pressure to drive the bow forward seems to result in sideways arrows. My view is based on my own problems with getting to the BE and so from the peanut gallery...

And yeah Stash where did you get my picture-- thats very unfair....that's ice Tea in the glass honest....


----------



## Vittorio

Side notes:
Mauro Nespoli poundage in Tokyo is 66# and he gets 215 km/hr
Marcus Dalmeida poundage is ???? and he gets 212 km/hr
Kim Woojin poundage is ???? and he gets 203 km/hr
But today in the women matches, Kang Chae Young was getting 202 km/hr, so her poundage is ????

So many with bad releases to take care of ...


----------



## woof156

limbwalker said:


> Jennifer lost by only a single point in the final set to Kumari. I hope she takes a lot of confidence from that performance.


She did shoot well the wind must be playing havoc with some of the shots from both archers. Who was that in the stands that keep yelling with a voice that sounded like she had been vaccinated with a stereophonic needle? That is almost harassment.


----------



## >--gt-->

Well, we will see what the actual weight of Mauro’s bow is later today.


----------



## Draven Olary

limbwalker said:


> I was simply pointing out how obsessed OR archers and coaches are with the "perfect release" when it's only part of the shot and the other hand is influencing the arrow long after the string has been released. Also, most folks are seeing the follow-through, and not the actual release, but don't realize the difference.


I always thought the release is happening in a fraction of the second - no matter what the string is pushing the fingers away when the tension in string overpowers the tension in fingers. Good luck to obsessed coaches in improving it. I hope they are time benders too.


----------



## Boomer2094

>--gt--> said:


> Well, we will see what the actual weight of Mauro’s bow is later today.


Just curious, is there an equipment inspection process for the Olympic Archery? And is there a draw weight limit? Are each bows draw weight tested and is that number kept on record?


----------



## Stash

I’m not understanding what some are saying about the significance of heavy draw weight on the “cleanliness” of the release, but it seems fairly obvious that a heavier draw weight will minimize release errors. If that wasn’t the case, people would be winning indoor events with 25-30# bows. 

Each archer has to balance how they perceive the heavier weight helps the release with how it hurts the rest of their form. Don’t criticize someone for shooting very heavy or very light until you know everything else about their shooting.


----------



## >--gt-->

Yes there is an equipment inspection at the Olympic Games.

No there is not a draw weight limit for recurve, and bows are not weighed in the inspection.

However there is an equipment booth with a scale, and some data being gathered.


----------



## limbwalker

>--gt--> said:


> Yes there is an equipment inspection at the Olympic Games.
> 
> No there is not a draw weight limit for recurve, and bows are not weighed in the inspection.


but somehow, mysteriously, we'll still know. LOL


----------



## Draven Olary

A couple of years ago the draw weight was marked under archer’s profile on WA site. It was interesting to see that korean women archers were shooting #45 - #48 on fingers.


----------



## >--gt-->

Draven Olary said:


> A couple of years ago the draw weight was marked under archer’s profile on WA site. It was interesting to see that korean women archers were shooting #45 - #48 on fingers.


Yeah, WA’s equipment booth generally tries to gather this information at some major events, particularly for finalists. 

Some of the WA data is from the archer’s self-reports rather than actual measurements. A surprising (but minority) percentage of archers at events like the Olympic Games actually either don’t know, or equate the marked limb weight with their draw weight. More common among shooters dependent on a team equipment tech.

Logistics (covid distancing, etc) at this event complicate that, but measurements have been taken on many setups before competition.


----------



## chrstphr

article on Sjef


https://www.yahoo.com/sports/debilitating-headaches-force-dutch-archer-120443704.html



Chris


----------



## Boomer2094

>--gt--> said:


> A surprising (but minority) percentage of archers at events like the Olympic Games actually either don’t know, or equate the marked limb weight with their draw weight. More common among shooters dependent on a team equipment tech.


Interesting tidbit there.... I would expect this from pro cyclist, not pro archers. Considering how personal a bow is to the archer versus bike to a cyclist.


----------



## chrstphr

Boomer2094 said:


> Interesting tidbit there.... I would expect this from pro cyclist, not pro archers. Considering how personal a bow is to the archer versus bike to a cyclist.


even here at nationals or at USATs, you would be surprised at the number of archers shooting bows that are not tuned or misaligned. I shot once with two guys during a FITA. From 90 to 70 to 50, one guy said he had to move his sight to the left to stay centered, the other guy said he had to move his sight to the right each distance to stay centered.

Some archers leave it to others to tune their bow etc. Others just get a ballpark and its good enough. And others tune til the cows come home.

Chris


----------



## Boomer2094

chrstphr said:


> even here at nationals or at USATs, you would be surprised at the number of archers shooting bows that are not tuned or misaligned. I shot once with two guys during a FITA. From 90 to 70 to 50, one guy said he had to move his sight to the left to stay centered, the other guy said he had to move his sight to the right each distance to stay centered.
> 
> Some archers leave it to others to tune their bow etc. Others just get a ballpark and its good enough. And others tune til the cows come home.
> 
> With my JOAD, i did quite a bit of the tuning on the bows. My only rule was the archer had to be able to string their own bow.
> 
> Chris


Wow, I did not know that... I would imagine that if you are shooting at that level, you would at least have some basic archery knowledge and tuning... I guess I'm wrong.


----------



## limbwalker

Boomer2094 said:


> Interesting tidbit there.... I would expect this from pro cyclist, not pro archers. Considering how personal a bow is to the archer versus bike to a cyclist.


Some here would be shocked to know how little many of the USAT-level archers in the US know about their own equipment. This is particularly common on the women's side. That's not a criticism of the women. It's just a by-product of 1) society not expecting women to work with tools and 2) coaches (generally men) doing everything for them and 3) women are often too trusting so they don't question things like the men do.

I've seen some "interesting" setups among both male and female archers who were about to, or had just won state and national titles. I'm certain gt could tell stories for hours about equipment knowledge (or lack thereof) among Olympians.

Re: cycling, I would expect a pro cyclist's gear to be just as customized to the individual as any archer's bow, but then I have no experience in high level cycling either.


----------



## Boomer2094

limbwalker said:


> Re: cycling, I would expect a pro cyclist's gear to be just as customized to the individual as any archer's bow, but then I have no experience in high level cycling either.


That is certainly true, Although In cycling, it is all about the fit - reach, stack height, etc - once they have the bike adjusted to fit the rider, everything else stayed the same. Team's bike tech maintain and clean the bike, that's about it. There is no "Tuning" in cycling. 

As personal as bike to the pro riders... it is very common for a pro cyclist to jump on their teammate's bike when their own bike brakes down and finish the ride with it. Can you imagine during the archery team match and your limb snaps, you just pick up your teammate's bow and finish the match with it?


----------



## limbwalker

Boomer2094 said:


> That is certainly true, Although In cycling, it is all about the fit - reach, stack height, etc - once they have the bike adjusted to fit the rider, everything else stayed the same. Team's bike tech maintain and clean the bike, that's about it. There is no "Tuning" in cycling.
> 
> As personal as bike to the pro riders... it is very common for a pro cyclist to jump on their teammate's bike when their own bike brakes down and finish the ride with it. Can you imagine during the archery team match and your limb snaps, you just pick up your teammate's bow and finish the match with it?


It has happened. It's also happened, quite often in fact, that an archer's bows don't arrive in time (luggage issues when flying) and they set up and shoot a competitor's 2nd bow. Rick McKinney wrote in his book "The Simple Art of Winning" to always pack your tab and grip in your carry-on so you can use those if you have to borrow someone else's bow. Or something along those lines. Been too long since I've read that book. I need to re-read it. LOL


----------



## chrstphr

I also remember a previous national team archer for another country had Park SungHyun visit. The archer let Park Sunghyun use the archer's bow at the range. After picking it up, Park Sunghyun proceeded to take the bow and realign it at the range before shooting it. 

The archer posted photos captioning it as Park Sunghyun tuning my bow. 

Chris


----------



## >--gt-->

Boomer2094 said:


> Can you imagine during the archery team match and your limb snaps, you just pick up your teammate's bow and finish the match with it?


When Butch Johnson and I were RA’s in San Diego, we traded bows a few times just to experiment- since we had near identical draw weights and lengths, and almost identical arrows and grips, but slightly different finger pressure patterns and eye to anchor distances, all we really had to do (at 70M) was learn the relative impact points and resulting aimoffs of each others bows. 

We could also just trade arrows with a slight clicker position change.

It was a fun diversion and learning opportunity.



> I would imagine that if you are shooting at that level, you would at least have some basic archery knowledge and tuning... I guess I'm wrong.


You would think that, until you’ve watched a well-known Korean shooter at a major event squeeze a bunch of glue into a nock and twist it onto the arrow….


----------



## Stash

limbwalker said:


> It has happened. It's also happened, quite often in fact, that an archer's bows don't arrive in time (luggage issues when flying) and they set up and shoot a competitor's 2nd bow. Rick McKinney wrote in his book "The Simple Art of Winning" to always pack your tab and grip in your carry-on so you can use those if you have to borrow someone else's bow.


My first international team trip, my luggage was lost for 2-3 days. After that, I used to ask to swap my backup bow and half my arrows with another teammate’s for travelling, so if one case was lost by the airlines we’d both still have a setup to shoot. I did keep my tab with my carry-on, too. Never did have another incident, though.

Something all team members should be advised to do.


----------



## thawkins

As mentioned, arrow speeds are being posted for the archer. At what location is the arrow when it's speed is measured - as it leaves the bow or at the target?


----------



## Stash

thawkins said:


> As mentioned, arrow speeds are being posted for the archer. At what location is the arrow when it's speed is measured - as it leaves the bow or at the target?


Might be an average speed based on time in the air, which would be easier to do digitally.


----------



## Metropolis

chrstphr said:


> I am really impressed with team Japan's shooting.


Not me because as host they had to prepare the Games at first,
and then they currently have noteworthy shooters 
legend Hiroshi Yamamoto apart (still at 580 indoor 1 or 2 years ago).

Furukawa kun,
Kikuchi Hideki, substitute of this selection & Japanese record holder for a while (689 or something), WC medalist,
Wataru Oonuki, 2017 World Games winner vs Brady Ellison,
Kawata Yuki who shot 598 at the 2018 World Indoor Championship (using X10),
Tomatsu Daisuke who finished Silver at the same World Indoor Championship,
Muto Hiroki, that I was following but I don't remember why… : ))

In the "onna no ko":
Irie Yu top seeded the 2018 World Indoor Championship with 591,
Sugimoto Tomomi, medalist at Medellin and Shanghai 2019,
Hayakawa Ren, medalist at Shanghai 2017 and European Grand prix 2018,
Kawanaka Kaori (still shooting?) Nippon record holder with 679 I believe and London team medalist…

So finally the effervescence was already there.


----------



## Hikari

Stash said:


> Someone posted this on a thread on Mutantville. Seems appropriate here.
> 
> View attachment 7439517


Well, that is some hook you have there--hopefully the release is clean. The front stabilizer is pretty impressive, too.


----------



## >--gt-->

Stash said:


> My first international team trip, my luggage was lost for 2-3 days. After that, I used to ask to swap my backup bow and half my arrows with another teammate’s for travelling, so if one case was lost by the airlines we’d both still have a setup to shoot. I did keep my tab with my carry-on, too. Never did have another incident, though.
> 
> Something all team members should be advised to do.


On a recent podcast (Easton Target Podcast #124), John Williams related the story of his experience seeing his one-piece bow come off a baggage cart in a two-piece condition at his first major international event, the 1971 World Championship in York, GBR. 

Fortunately, his backup bow- his father’s hunting bow, which weighed several pounds more- arrived in good condition. (He won the event, anyway- it was _really_ windy for 50M and the heavier bow helped.)

I remember standing at a bag carousel in Amsterdam with Dave Cousins a few years ago. His bowcase cover came off the slide, but the case itself, and its contents, turned up something like seven WEEKS later. 

I have dozens of other stories- bowcases arriving with all arrows missing, TSA simply tossing risers and limbs in the case together after inspection- bare- and so forth. Hell, one time I was taken off an aircraft at gunpoint, taken down to the tarmac, and made to open my (black, sinister looking Pelican) bowcase for a bunch of nervous French police.

The backup bow and extra arrow swap was always a good idea if team members would be in the same place on the way to the destination, and it still is. Of course you always fly with your primary tab, and if it’s custom, at least one copy of your grip, in your carry-on.


----------



## nakedape

on WA fb,

Brady, "Right now, I get to be selfish. Saying that may sound weird, but right now it's all about me."

I like to see Brady do well, but that is a strange statement to me.


----------



## limbwalker

nakedape said:


> on WA fb,
> 
> Brady, "Right now, I get to be selfish. Saying that may sound weird, but right now it's all about me."
> 
> I like to see Brady do well, but that is a strange statement to me.


I'm afraid this go-round, that's how it's always been. He has two team silvers now. Time to be selfish. Sorry Jack.


----------



## tassie_devil

Hooray! Nice shooting by Taylor Worth, can now watch on Saturday with more than idle curiosity... enough talent to challenge.

Re: Brady, the team stuffs over. Who else is it about? I would presume everyon still in it is only worrying about their own game.


----------



## nakedape

I guess I forgive him for all that yelling, LOL











Archery athlete Kim Je Deok becomes the youngest gold medalist after practicing 16 hours a day despite having to take care of his sick father alone


Archery athlete Kim Je Deok rose to the top during the 2020 Tokyo Olympics archery games as he won the gold medal.Kim Je Deok, a 17-year-old natio…




www.allkpop.com





During the *CBS* radio show '*Kim Hyun Jung's News Show*,' Hwang Hyo Jin who had been coaching Kim Je Deok for the last two years was interviewed. During the interview, she explained that Kim Je Deok had to forfeit a tournament last year due to a shoulder injury and explained that he still feels pain. 


She continued to say, "_It made me sad when I saw him shout 'fighting' before the tournament." _She elaborated, "_He shouted 'Fighting' aloud so that he would calm his nerves"_ and explained that he had to experience such tension at a young age.


She continued to share why she had paid more attention to Kim Je Deok and explained, "_He doesn't have a mother and has to take care of his ill father by himself. So I tried to help him as much as I can." _She then shared that she believes that Kim Je Deok had to do well because of his family situation.

After hearing Kim Je Deok's story, many netizens were impressed and shared many messages supporting the young player. They commented, "_He's so amazing," "He grew up so well," "His father must be so proud," _and_"I hope he gets a gold medal again in the next tournament."_


----------



## nakedape

limbwalker said:


> I'm afraid this go-round, that's how it's always been. He has two team silvers now. Time to be selfish. Sorry Jack.


I guess he is trying psyche himself up.

Reminds me when thug rose says "I am the best!" (ufc reference)


----------



## lcaillo

chrstphr said:


> even here at nationals or at USATs, you would be surprised at the number of archers shooting bows that are not tuned or misaligned. I shot once with two guys during a FITA. From 90 to 70 to 50, one guy said he had to move his sight to the left to stay centered, the other guy said he had to move his sight to the right each distance to stay centered.
> 
> Some archers leave it to others to tune their bow etc. Others just get a ballpark and its good enough. And others tune til the cows come home.
> 
> Chris


I think it must be a generational thing. On the masters line most are quite picky about tuning and equipment. I. Have known many of them for 40+ years and we were always so. Most of the kids these days don’t really know much at all. Even the coaches don’t in many cases. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## hockeyref

lcaillo said:


> I think it must be a generational thing. On the masters line most are quite picky about tuning and equipment. I. Have known many of them for 40+ years and we were always so. Most of the kids these days don’t really know much at all. Even the coaches don’t in many cases.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I've seen it as a trend in most sports.... all the instant gratification.... they want to do archery, not be archers.. The youngsters just wanna jump straight to doing it and not learn it.


----------



## Ray.L

Looks like we won't be seeing third seed take gold. That was a very close match. Only Kim WJ remains on the Korean men.


----------



## baller

What a match and finish between OH and DAS!!!


----------



## tassie_devil

baller said:


> What a match and finish between OH and DAS!!!


Yup - the draw is starting to open up a bit. Seeds 1 & 3 out.


----------



## tassie_devil

27 seems to be the required standard in these conditions. Not too many sets lost with 27. 28+ mostly good for 2 points.

These numbers will probably go up by one on Friday/Saturday when the 'in form' shooters are playing amongst themselves.


----------



## nakedape

GB and BBC, lack of coverage




__ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=2336297929839094


----------



## nakedape

Easy path to the finals for Brady with Oh and Wei out.... maybe.


----------



## FerrumVeritas

If Wukie makes the top 16, could you imagine the pressure he’d be under to lose?


----------



## Ray.L

Mete Gazoz is on fire.


----------



## tassie_devil

tassie_devil said:


> 27 seems to be the required standard in these conditions. Not too many sets lost with 27. 28+ mostly good for 2 points.
> 
> These numbers will probably go up by one on Friday/Saturday when the 'in form' shooters are playing amongst themselves.


Wow. Preview of the pointy end. Ryan Tyack has shot 27-28- 27 to be 1-5 down. Gazoz on fire!


----------



## Stash

Some brilliancy going on, but some pretty awful scores as well. I know, it’s windy, but I’m having a hard time understanding how anyone can get away with scores like these, and win a match AT THE OLYMPICS.


----------



## nakedape

FerrumVeritas said:


> If Wukie makes the top 16, could you imagine the pressure he’d be under to lose?



really? I would hope he wouldn't worry about it.


----------



## nakedape

viewership way down...









NBC's Tokyo Olympics coverage spurs 'advertiser anxiety' as viewership continues to decline


NBC’s primetime coverage of the Tokyo Olympics continued to spiral downward on Monday, averaging 14.7 million viewers for a 49% drop compared to the equivalent night from the 2016 Rio de Janeiro Games.




www.foxnews.com


----------



## nakedape

Wei (21) and Tang(12) of Team Taiwan would probably meet in the 1/16 round. That blows...


----------



## Hobby Shooter

I have just finished reading this thread and have found it to be quite interesting. Of course, as is typical, there are as many opinions as there are archers and we all tend to view things through our own lenses, which may, or may not, coincide with any others. We all have our opinions and theories about the Olympics and why some archers are shooting well and others aren’t. I guess to me, at that level of competition, any given archer can win it or lose it depending on their own skills and abilities and how they are shooting during the Olympics.

I did however, want to answer a question that Stash asked a few days ago regarding whether or not hypnosis is allowed according to WA rules. I don’t think the WA says anything about hypnosis, but it is actually irrelevant as there is no way to monitor hypnosis, or tell is one is “using” it or not. Hypnosis is another tool to put in one’s quiver and use if it is beneficial. Contrary to much belief about hypnosis, one does not enter any “trance” or anything like that. 

At the elite level of archery, and many other sports as well, hypnosis is probably used but the athlete may not term it as hypnosis. It is very similar to meditation or imagery or many other mental techniques used to help one improve. There is not “secret” to it, nor really any mystery about it if one studies it. It can be a very useful tool for those who use it effectively. Like most “tools” some use it more effectively than others, and thus may derive more benefit from it.

One can also think of it as being very similar to being in the “zone”, which is probably a form of hypnosis, just not termed as such. When in hypnosis, one is essentially shooting in the unconscious, as Darrel Pace mentioned years ago. The archer is shooting on “automatic” and is just letting himself/herself be in the moment and not trying to consciously control the shot. Instead, they just let the shot happen.


----------



## nakedape

Kim Je Deok


__
http://instagr.am/p/Bpjs8skjftj/


----------



## Ray.L

Wukie shooting well in his first match, even with the heavy wind.


----------



## Ray.L

Wow.


----------



## Vittorio

Barbelin is the most Korean outside Korea as far her line of draw is concerned. She shoots perfectly with a slightly canted bow. When bow is not canted, , mistakes happen. If she can keep this constant, she is the contender to An San.


----------



## >--gt-->

For those still wondering: Nespoli’s actual bow weight is 63, not 66 as reported elsewhere.


----------



## Metropolis

Vittorio said:


> Barbelin is the most Korean outside Korea as far her line of draw is concerned. She shoots perfectly with a slightly canted bow. When bow is not canted, , mistakes happen. If she can keep this constant, she is the contender to An San.


There is something very similar between Lisa Barbelin, Audrey Adiceom, some Spanish (Elia Canales, Monica Galisteo) and other young French men. The national program was "verticalized" into an academic style like in Korea, like KSL's NTS, and now we can see it clearly through their form.


----------



## cerelestecerele

Now that we've got the full brackets for the 1/8 rounds, it's interesting to see how many upsets there are.
In the women, the qualification round ranks of those remaining are: 1,3,4,5,8,9,13,16,18,19,21,22,23,31,38,39, so half of them have already beaten at least one better ranked archer, and two beat two.
And for the men it's a much wider range: 
2,4,10,11,12,16,20,24,27,33,35,39,40,46,47,60. So 7 of them have managed two upsets and 5 have managed one. In 2016 only three archers ranked past 32 made it this far and nobody ranked 16-32. 
Was the wind more variable over the field during the men's qualification round? That would make upsets more likely when two archers with similar wind reading ability but different wind exposure during the qualification then shot against each other in match play.

Though if both Brady Ellison and Taylor Worth win their next match, they can have a rematch of their 2012 Olympics match (7-1, Worth won).


----------



## limbwalker

Stash said:


> Some brilliancy going on, but some pretty awful scores as well. I know, it’s windy, but I’m having a hard time understanding how anyone can get away with scores like these, and win a match AT THE OLYMPICS.
> View attachment 7439846


It's no secret that women really struggle in the wind. Just go back and look at the scores from any USAT where the wind was blowing. You'll see similar scores. Look at Athens. Same thing. They just don't have the horsepower to battle strong or swirling winds. For them, 70 is our (men's) 90. Throw a 15 mph wind at us at 90 and we are doing the same thing.


----------



## limbwalker

Mac is on a roll. Her end totals in her first two matches are very good compared to her next competitor. I like her chances. This may be the best I've ever seen her shoot.


----------



## limbwalker

Looking at these scores, with the best in the world routinely shooting 23's and 24's makes me wonder how the arrow avg. from this venue would stack up against previous venues. That might be an interesting comparison.


----------



## >--gt-->

cerelestecerele said:


> Was the wind more variable over the field during the men's qualification round? That would make upsets more likely when two archers with similar wind reading ability but different wind exposure during the qualification then shot against each other in match play.


Absolutely. If you were in the middle of the field, you definitely had a disadvantage- the USA men were smack in the middle.

Big tailwind coming over the top of the structure (which blocked the wind at the line to some degree) behind the field during ranking put a tail-first downdraft on the arrows at about 40 meters off the line, so hard to feel and hard to compensate.

You can literally look at the ranking list scores, and with one eye on the column for target assignment, you can actually see the correlation. Plug it into excel and analyze the target number vs score and it jumps out.


----------



## limbwalker

I was thinking tailwind. Those are the worst to suss out. When I see completely confused looks on the faces of good archers, there's usually a tailwind involved.


----------



## UK_Stretch

Personal observations from what I have seen so far is that there are a lot of bad shots being shot. It’s not just mis- reading the wind. It is allowing the wind to heavily impact your process and then making a poor shot. Combine that with the fact that a bad shot in wind drifts even further. While you expect to see that in less experienced archers we’re also seeing it (not sure I’ve seen a 2 at international level before) with some of the big names… which is more surprising. Maybe the extra wait brings with it extra pressure. There are still some phenominal groups being shot.

Overall it really does show why some people love the set system (fat lady sings stuff) and why some people hate it (do you really deserve a medal when you shot a…). Sometimes it is a joy to watch, other times it is baffling.

No criticism intended- I know that the archers who have under-performed their expectations, and the expectations of their countries, will be beating themselves up enough already. I know I never needed anyone else to tell me how badly I’d shot - I was always very aware

Stretch


----------



## midnightwarrior

Posting it here too for convenience
So this is the Tokyo analysis so from straight from the source which I will not disclose











all three of coach lee student at the 2020 Olympics are top archers!!! Korea has one male and 2 females. We have 2 males and one female at the top. Everyone was thinking Korea will produce all top male archers. But no. we are producing just as many top archers as Korea is. That’s the point.

Win or loose does not matter to me.
Set systems does not paint the whole picture. Anyone can win. We are the best and our coach is the best. I sure am proud. There are opinions which everyone has, but then there are statistics.


----------



## tassie_devil

Yeah, tough couple of days. Only Taylor Worth got through for the Aussies. Barnsey didn't seem to have his mojo (I missed the match though). Tyack shot we'll, others got through with less, but Gazoz definitely had his act together. 

On the bright side, now Whiskey time for me. 😁 🥃


----------



## >--gt-->

UK_Stretch said:


> Personal observations from what I have seen so far is that there are a lot of bad shots being shot. It’s not just mis- reading the wind. It is allowing the wind to heavily impact your process and then making a poor shot. Combine that with the fact that a bad shot in wind drifts even further. While you expect to see that in less experienced archers we’re also seeing it (not sure I’ve seen a 2 at international level before) with some of the big names… which is more surprising.
> 
> Stretch


Precisely correct and concisely stated.


----------



## limbwalker

UK_Stretch said:


> Personal observations from what I have seen so far is that there are a lot of bad shots being shot. It’s not just mis- reading the wind. It is allowing the wind to heavily impact your process and then making a poor shot. Combine that with the fact that a bad shot in wind drifts even further. While you expect to see that in less experienced archers we’re also seeing it (not sure I’ve seen a 2 at international level before) with some of the big names… which is more surprising. Maybe the extra wait brings with it extra pressure. There are still some phenominal groups being shot.
> 
> Overall it really does show why some people love the set system (fat lady sings stuff) and why some people hate it (do you really deserve a medal when you shot a…). Sometimes it is a joy to watch, other times it is baffling.
> 
> No criticism intended- I know that the archers who have under-performed their expectations, and the expectations of their countries, will be beating themselves up enough already. I know I never needed anyone else to tell me how badly I’d shot - I was always very aware
> 
> Stretch


We had complete misses recorded in Athens, due to those swirling winds. You put all these archers on an open field with a consistent wind and the story would be much different. IMO these stadium venues produce unfair conditions for competition. I say that because there is no way to prepare for the actual competition conditions, and not enough time in the venue to learn once there. This would effectively be the same as if the golf competition was 1 round of 18 holes and nobody was allowed to play a practice round. No elite golfer would agree to those conditions, and yet that's exactly what we do nowdays in Olympic archery, since Athens. It's absurd. 

We all compete in windy conditions all the time - just not in stadium bowls with swirling winds. 

When you can clearly determine the positions of advantage due to the winds, as you could in Athens and now again here in Tokyo, that's not a fair competition.


----------



## midnightwarrior

OH.... and if Zack hadn’t picked Ethical fights with USAA and got himself thrown out , and the latter had let coach lee do his job properly, we would have 3 top male and just as many female archers at the top in Tokyo this year as well.


----------



## limbwalker

midnightwarrior said:


> Posting it here too for convenience
> So this is the Tokyo analysis so from straight from the source which I will not disclose
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> all three of coach lee student at the 2020 Olympics are top archers!!! Korea has one male and 2 females. We have 2 males and one female at the top. Everyone was thinking Korea will produce all top male archers. But no. we are producing just as many top archers as Korea is. That’s the point.
> 
> Win or loose does not matter to me.
> Set systems does not paint the whole picture. Anyone can win. We are the best and our coach is the best. I sure am proud. There are opinions which everyone has, but then there are statistics.


If you want to start a new thread about Lee, feel free to do that.


----------



## limbwalker

midnightwarrior said:


> OH.... and if Zack hadn’t picked Ethical fights with USAA and got himself thrown out , and the latter had let coach lee do his job properly, we would have 3 top male and just as many female archers at the top in Tokyo this year as well.


We can do "what if's" all day in both directions if we want. Again, if you want to start a thread about Lee and his students, feel free. This really isn't the place IMO.


----------



## midnightwarrior

No I don’t. I read this entire thread and thought it was pertinent based on quite a number of posts here demeaning and bashing out Top archers and coaches. I did post it in your Kisik Lee specific thread as well. Peace and my best.


----------



## Boomer2094

limbwalker said:


> We had complete misses recorded in Athens, due to those swirling winds. You put all these archers on an open field with a consistent wind and the story would be much different. IMO these stadium venues produce unfair conditions for competition. I say that because there is no way to prepare for the actual competition conditions, and not enough time in the venue to learn once there. This would effectively be the same as if the golf competition was 1 round of 18 holes and nobody was allowed to play a practice round. No elite golfer would agree to those conditions, and yet that's exactly what we do nowdays in Olympic archery, since Athens. It's absurd.
> 
> We all compete in windy conditions all the time - just not in stadium bowls with swirling winds.
> 
> When you can clearly determine the positions of advantage due to the winds, as you could in Athens and now again here in Tokyo, that's not a fair competition.


I hear you and agree with the point you are making. Problem is, not every country is able to find nice open field to host archery events in... But sure as heck, every country has a nice and big Stadium.... So Archery event get put there.

Limbwalker, do you think indoor soccer/football stadium be better than open stadium for Archery events?


----------



## limbwalker

midnightwarrior said:


> No I don’t. I read this entire thread and thought it was pertinent based on quite a number of posts here demeaning and bashing out Top archers and coaches. I did post it in your Kisik Lee specific thread as well. Peace and my best.


Just to be clear, I welcome facts and statistics when evaluating anyone's performance. There are plenty to be shared/examined including how many full teams were sent under his watch and how close we came to never having sent a full team in the past four games, but I'll save that statistic for another discussion. For now I'd prefer to focus on these games and the performances of these amazing athletes. They deserve that.


----------



## Ray.L

Yumenoshima Park was built specifically for the Olympics, wasn't it?


----------



## limbwalker

Boomer2094 said:


> I hear you and agree with the point you are making. Problem is, not every country is able to find nice open field to host archery events in... But sure as heck, every country has a nice and big Stadium.... So Archery event get put there.
> 
> Limbwalker, do you think indoor soccer/football stadium be better than open stadium for Archery events?


You make a good point. 

No two stadiums are going to produce the same conditions. For there to be fair competition, the competitors at least need some valid experience in that venue, in conditions they will expect to face at the official competition. If there was a test event in that stadium, then my hope is that someone was paying attention to the bias in positions on the field, and they at least tried to figure out a way to minimize that bias.


----------



## Boomer2094

Ray.L said:


> Yumenoshima Park was built specifically for the Olympics, wasn't it?


I don't believe so... It was created in 1978 from a former garbage disposal site.

It was selected to host the archery event in 2019. and test event was done in july 2019.


----------



## limbwalker

Boomer2094 said:


> I don't believe so... It was created in 1978 from a former garbage disposal site.
> 
> It was selected to host the archery event in 2019. and test event was done in july 2019.


I'd love to know what the wind conditions were at that test event, and if anyone at all looked at the scores in relation to the positions on that field to even attempt to make it a fair venue. Probably not.

They simply cannot keep treating world class archers like this. Simon said it in Athens - it's like playing rock-paper-scissors for a gold medal. Even Brady talked about luck the other day, no doubt based on what he was seeing or has seen in Olympic venues over the years.


----------



## Ray.L

Footage of the test event is on the World Archery YouTube channel.



Boomer2094 said:


> I don't believe so... It was created in 1978 from a former garbage disposal site.
> 
> It was selected to host the archery event in 2019. and test event was done in july 2019.


The park was, but the archery field is new Yumenoshima Park Archery Field | Tokyo The Host City | Tokyo Media Center


----------



## Boomer2094

Ray.L said:


> Footage of the test event is on the World Archery YouTube channel.
> 
> The park was, but the archery field is new Yumenoshima Park Archery Field | Tokyo The Host City | Tokyo Media Center


Ray,

Thanks for the info! I stand corrected.

Limbwalker,

Appearantly, they did have a archery test event at July 2019 at Yumenoshima park...






Now, we can discuss if 12 months is enough for international archers to prepare for the condition in Yumenoshima park or not. I personally think it is not... Because it is next to impossible to replicate the condition in Japan in their home country due geological location difference. Could they get close? sure, but until they can replicate the wind pattern, the Japanese archers would have the leg up on rest of the world.


----------



## tassie_devil

I don't know how elite archery works, but most PGA tour events are basically 6 days - Pro-Am, practice tournament.

For majors, players might practice at the course months before or at similar venues e.g. influx of PGA tour players to the west of Ireland in the leadup to the Open each year.

Granted archers have (vastly) less money than pro golfers, but something similar could occur. Although that would only help the wealthier NOCs.


----------



## UK_Stretch

limbwalker said:


> We had complete misses recorded in Athens, due to those swirling winds. You put all these archers on an open field with a consistent wind and the story would be much different. IMO these stadium venues produce unfair conditions for competition. I say that because there is no way to prepare for the actual competition conditions, and not enough time in the venue to learn once there. This would effectively be the same as if the golf competition was 1 round of 18 holes and nobody was allowed to play a practice round. No elite golfer would agree to those conditions, and yet that's exactly what we do nowdays in Olympic archery, since Athens. It's absurd.
> 
> We all compete in windy conditions all the time - just not in stadium bowls with swirling winds.
> 
> When you can clearly determine the positions of advantage due to the winds, as you could in Athens and now again here in Tokyo, that's not a fair competition.


I can’t comment on Athens. We had minimal coverage in the UK but as we got a Bronze medal (Alison) and 4th (Larry) maybe it was just like shooting in the UK.

If the weather really is that impossible to read how come An San hasn’t shot outside the 8 through 3 competitions? (If she has, it’s not many… I don’t remember any  ). Look at some of the groups shot by Barbellin, Gazoz and Wijler (and others). Three arrows you can get your had around. I hear what you are saying but I am unconvinced. Difficult - yes. Luck of the draw? Not from what I have seen.

In London 2012 Lords got a lot of stick for wind as well but it seemed to affect some people a lot more than others  Only result at Lords that seemed “unfair” was Rick Van Der Ven not medalling, he was phenomenal but shot a few loose arrows at the worst time.

I agree that the qualifying field does not appear to have been fair but to win you need to beat everyone anyway.

Stretch


----------



## Stash

tassie_devil said:


> I don't know how elite archery works, but most PGA tour events are basically 6 days - Pro-Am, practice tournament.
> 
> For majors, players might practice at the course months before or at similar venues e.g. influx of PGA tour players to the west of Ireland in the leadup to the Open each year.
> 
> Granted archers have (vastly) less money than pro golfers, but something similar could occur. Although that would only help the wealthier NOCs.


I don’t see much comparison between golf and archery when it comes to knowing the venue. There’s a lot more to golf than just hitting a ball at the center of a clearly marked aiming spot at a specific distance. 😄

You could spend weeks training at a specific stadium, but on competition day still experience a unique wind pattern you’ve not seen before.

One thing I’ve noticed over the years (and I include myself) is that most archers, even elite level, are reluctant to go and practice in crappy weather, and even sometimes pass on less important local competitions if it’s raining or cold or windy. You can’t afford to miss these experiences if you expect to do well at the big events.


----------



## SHPoet

limbwalker said:


> You make a good point.
> 
> *No two stadiums are going to produce the same conditions. * For there to be fair competition, the competitors at least need some valid experience in that venue, in conditions they will expect to face at the official competition. If there was a test event in that stadium, then my hope is that someone was paying attention to the bias in positions on the field, and they at least tried to figure out a way to minimize that bias.


Exactly. There was a video on Youtube that I caw in one of my classes. The shooters were standing in a big "hallway" and shooting out into the stadium. The flags at the top of the stadium were pointed in every direction imaginable. But, everyone was shooting in those conditions so.......


----------



## mgx1138

Boomer2094 said:


> Interesting tidbit there.... I would expect this from pro cyclist, not pro archers. Considering how personal a bow is to the archer versus bike to a cyclist.


Sorry, but cyclists are typically very knowledgeable about their equipment. Many are downright anal about their bikes and their bike setup. I get your point but racing cyclists is just a bad example.


----------



## >--gt-->

Ray.L said:


> Footage of the test event is on the World Archery YouTube channel.
> 
> 
> The park was, but the archery field is new Yumenoshima Park Archery Field | Tokyo The Host City | Tokyo Media Center


The specific shooting venue was built for the Games, but I’ve shot or announced at numerous competitions since 1994 in the existing stadium directly next to it to the west, and put on a few shooting clinics in the sport facility directly to the east (which has a 70m range). Conditions are virtually the same.


----------



## limbwalker

UK_Stretch said:


> I can’t comment on Athens. We had minimal coverage in the UK but as we got a Bronze medal (Alison) and 4th (Larry) maybe it was just like shooting in the UK.
> 
> If the weather really is that impossible to read how come An San hasn’t shot outside the 8 through 3 competitions? (If she has, it’s not many… I don’t remember any  ). Look at some of the groups shot by Barbellin, Gazoz and Wijler (and others). Three arrows you can get your had around. I hear what you are saying but I am unconvinced. Difficult - yes. Luck of the draw? Not from what I have seen.
> 
> In London 2012 Lords got a lot of stick for wind as well but it seemed to affect some people a lot more than others  Only result at Lords that seemed “unfair” was Rick Van Der Ven not medalling, he was phenomenal but shot a few loose arrows at the worst time.
> 
> I agree that the qualifying field does not appear to have been fair but to win you need to beat everyone anyway.
> 
> Stretch


In a gusty swirling wind, there will be moments where the conditions lay down and the archers are able to shoot their normal groups. 

Speaking for myself, I was in a known bad position in the individual matches in Athens (as was Jonathan Ohayan who shot his match at the same time) and I had moments where the wind would lay down and I'd shoot 10's and 9's and then times when it would gust and swirl and the same shot would net me a 4 or in one case, a 1. I'd look back at Frank and he would just say "just do the best you can" and then I'd look over at Jonathan and we would both throw up our hands because we knew we were playing a different game than the archers in the center positions. This held true through the team rounds to some degree although the winds weren't as severe during team competition.

My point is - professional sports that are as affected by wind or other environmental conditions have put in place measures to minimize the unfairness across the field of athletes. Things like sending out 1/2 the golfers in the morning and half in the afternoon, then flipping that rotation the next day during the first two rounds of a PGA event. There are countless examples really. So why is archery at the highest level satisfied with such a crap shoot? I know beyond a doubt the very best archers would like to see this addressed because it would mean they would win more often.


----------



## limbwalker

Stash said:


> I don’t see much comparison between golf and archery when it comes to knowing the venue. There’s a lot more to golf than just hitting a ball at the center of a clearly marked aiming spot at a specific distance. 😄
> 
> You could spend weeks training at a specific stadium, but on competition day still experience a unique wind pattern you’ve not seen before.
> 
> One thing I’ve noticed over the years (and I include myself) is that most archers, even elite level, are reluctant to go and practice in crappy weather, and even sometimes pass on less important local competitions if it’s raining or cold or windy. You can’t afford to miss these experiences if you expect to do well at the big events.


Stash, to your point, one thing I believe helped me more than anything in '04 was taking time off from work on the windiest days just to train. I made a point to avoid shooting for score on calm days - I would only test or tune on those days. I didn't care what my score was when it was calm and I didn't want any surprises when it was blowing or raining. The first USAT and the Olympic trials in '04 had virtually the exact wind conditions I had been training in all spring and that helped me tremendously. 

Our county fairgrounds, where I trained archers for 10 years, is well known as a windy spot by those in the Houston area. Many of the better students from the Houston area would make the drive out to shoot with us just because of the near-constant wind.

Yes, if you are serious about this sport, you will not only make a point of training in tough conditions, you'll prioritize it.

This is also a big reason we see some shooters at the top of the leaderboard at indoor shoots, but not at outdoor shoots.


----------



## Boomer2094

limbwalker said:


> My point is - professional sports that are as affected by wind or other environmental conditions have put in place measures to minimize the unfairness across the field of athletes. Things like sending out 1/2 the golfers in the morning and half in the afternoon, then flipping that rotation the next day during the first two rounds of a PGA event. There are countless examples really. So why is archery at the highest level satisfied with such a crap shoot? I know beyond a doubt the very best archers would like to see this addressed because it would mean they would win more often.


Maybe gt can chime in on this... How did the organizer determine the shooting time of all the different matches? looking at the times of the matches, they seen to be all over the place... Just wondering, is there a rhyme or reason? or just random?









Archery Men's Individual - Bracket Results | Tokyo 2020


The official website for the Olympic and Paralympic Games Tokyo 2020, providing the latest news, event information, Games Vision, and venue plans.




olympics.com


----------



## tylerjkrahn

Unfortunate for wukie and Brady to get a match against each other


----------



## limbwalker

tylerjkrahn said:


> Unfortunate for wukie and Brady to get a match against each other


Very. Those two have been at it together for a long time now. Hate to see either one of them go out at the other's hands, but maybe that's how it should be.


----------



## Vittorio

tylerjkrahn said:


> Unfortunate for wukie and Brady to get a match against each other


This situation is basically an advantage for the Nation, as you are sure at least one will progress to the next stage. 
Italy for women and Taipei for men had this happening already today. Archers may think differently, but managers will see it from a different perspective.


----------



## DarkMuppet

"Let the Wukie win"


----------



## limbwalker

Vittorio said:


> This situation is basically an advantage for the Nation, as you are sure at least one will progress to the next stage.
> Italy for women and Taipei for men had this happening already today. Archers may think differently, but managers will see it from a different perspective.


Ah managers...

sigh.


----------



## Vittorio

Wind conditions on a wide qualification field can influence a lot the grid depending on the position of the archer on the line, but in direct matches, the wind should be the same for both contenders. Unfortunately, when alternate shooting is used, 20 seconds can't allow managing properly a shot in a strong sudden wind gut, and then pure luck takes control. If you are in the "low" part of the wind frequency, you will surely win. I have seen this happening so many times at the international level, starting from Atlanta in 1996. In 2016 in Windhoek (Namibia) African Championships and Olympic qualifier, my daughter won the qualification in a strong wind, but in the finals, she lost the semifinal and final match as she was shooting in the "high" part of the wind frequency in both matches. Something like an arrow flying from Gold to the 4 depending on the change arrow after arrow. Crazy but we could do nothing to change it in a 20-second frame. Ok, Windhoek means "Corner of the wind" , but that was too much ...
So, back to Tokyo, now all archers going on can win the Gold depending from 2 objective factors only: poundage and frequency of the wind.


----------



## lameduck

Vittorio said:


> This situation is basically an advantage for the Nation, as you are sure at least one will progress to the next stage.
> Italy for women and Taipei for men had this happening already today. Archers may think differently, but managers will see it from a different perspective.


That would be an advantage only if shooting in semi-finals and you think the other two remaining competitors you did not face are stronger than both of you.


----------



## limbwalker

lameduck said:


> That would be an advantage only if shooting in semi-finals and you think the other two remaining competitors you did not face are stronger than both of you.


But he's talking from an administrative point of view. One more match guaranteed to be won, one higher placement guaranteed for the nation. A cold, but calculating way of seeing the sport and possibly justifying additional funding to the organization.


----------



## lameduck

limbwalker said:


> But he's talking from an administrative point of view. *One more match guaranteed to be won*, one higher placement guaranteed for the nation. A cold, but calculating way of seeing the sport and possibly justifying additional funding to the organization.


But it also guaranteed a lost match. If you believe or trust the ability of your athletes, you wouldn't want that.


----------



## Vittorio

lameduck said:


> That would be an advantage only if shooting in semi-finals and you think the other two remaining competitors you did not face are stronger than both of you.


As said, archers think in a very different way from those that have to find out fundings for the next Olympics. In 8th of finals, better one passing for sure than none. Better a 9th place and one going for sure between 1-8, than risk of 2 possible 9th places only. Anyone can really be sure to be stronger than anybody else in that field of 14? I will not bet a penny on any of the tomorrow matches, all totally unpredictable.


----------



## limbwalker

lameduck said:


> But it also guaranteed a lost match. If you believe or trust the ability of your athletes, you wouldn't want that.


Right. You and I see this the same but in a lot of people's minds, one single athlete going far is better than the team going 2/3 as far. It's a weird view if you ask me. Kinda like it's okay if the women's gymnastics team finishes 4th so long as Simone Biles wins the gold all-around or something. Strange.

Comes down to medal count pure and simple really.


----------



## limbwalker

If it isn't clear already - there really are two Olympic games being contested simultaneously. The one for the athletes, and the one for the organizers/sponsors/corporations/fans.


----------



## Stash

If you have 2 archers from your country in the final four, what would you prefer?

They face each other in the semis and worst case scenario have a guaranteed silver and best case a bronze and gold?

Of they face other archers in the semis and worst case scenario have a guaranteed bronze, and best case a silver and gold?


----------



## limbwalker

Stash said:


> If you have 2 archers from your country in the final four, what would you prefer?
> 
> They face each other in the semis and worst case scenario have a guaranteed silver and best case a bronze and gold?
> 
> Of they face other archers in the semis and worst case scenario have a guaranteed bronze, and best case a silver and gold?


At this point I'd just be happy with two archers in the final four. LOL That's a dream scenario for any nation not named Korea.


----------



## lameduck

limbwalker said:


> Right. You and I see this the same but in a lot of people's minds, one single athlete going far is better than the team going 2/3 as far. It's a weird view if you ask me. Kinda like it's okay if the women's gymnastics team finishes 4th so long as Simone Biles wins the gold all-around or something. Strange.
> 
> Comes down to medal count pure and simple really.


Are you saying there is team standing involved in the individual matches (sorry I'm new to Olympic archery rules)?


----------



## limbwalker

lameduck said:


> Are you saying there is team standing involved in the individual matches (sorry I'm new to Olympic archery rules)?


No. They are completely separate events. 

What Vittorio is talking about is funding for national programs based on athlete placement at the games. They all have calculations...


----------



## Stash

OK, people, time to shut up and pick your medalists.😄
Final 16 women:


----------



## Stash

Final 16 men:


----------



## FerrumVeritas

An, Nakamura, Barbalein

On the men’s side, the only prediction I want to make is Duenas for bronze. Well, I also think we’ll see Kim Woojin in the finals.


----------



## Stash

An, Kang, Kumari
Gazoz, Kim, Ellison

(Predictions, not what I would LIKE. 😄 
Kumari and Das both winning gold would be awesome.)


----------



## lameduck

How about Ellison and Duenas for Gold and Silver?


----------



## Boomer2094

Well, here comes the bracket... I hope I get this one somewhat right, unlike my March Madness Bracket. 😝

Here's my pick (Gold-Silver-Bronze):

Women: An, Kang, Kumari

Men: Kim, Ellison, Gazoz


----------



## >--gt-->

The wind was a factor, but the wind cycles on this field were not so erratic that the 20 second shot cycle was a particularly meaningful issue in terms of outcomes.











Just uploading a podcast now, with World Champions Steve Anderson and Braden Gellenthein making observations and predictions for the Women’s finals.


----------



## limbwalker

I guess as long as your shot cycle takes less than 8-10 seconds, including travel time to the target, you're fine. LOL We've turned this into a fast-shooter sport, unfortunately for the slower shooters. Perhaps coaches around the world should start training for sub-8-second shot cycles.


----------



## Skeptix_907

nakedape said:


> I guess he is trying psyche himself up.
> 
> Reminds me when thug rose says "I am the best!" (ufc reference)


Didn't think i'd see another MMA fan on this forum lol. That was a great win by Namajunas, I watched that fight live.

I also get Chael Sonnen vibes. Except this archer really IS the best haha.


----------



## Draven Olary

limbwalker said:


> I guess as long as your shot cycle takes less than 8-10 seconds, including travel time to the target, you're fine. LOL We've turned this into a fast-shooter sport, unfortunately for the slower shooters. Perhaps coaches around the world should start training for sub-8-second shot cycles.


It is a youtube of KSL about target panic where he is saying that koreans are better because they stay at full draw under 3 seconds. The video is old but when I checked counting 1 Mississippi, 2 Mississippi, 3 Mississippi very few koreans were still having the arrow in the bow at 3.


----------



## limbwalker

Draven Olary said:


> It is a youtube of KSL about target panic where he is saying that koreans are better because they stay at full draw under 3 seconds. The video is old but when I checked counting 1 Mississippi, 2 Mississippi, 3 Mississippi very few koreans were still having the arrow in the bow at 3


"Archers like fish..."
"They only cosentrate for tree secods..."

Yes, I remember him telling us that and us telling the JDT'ers over and over again.

He's not wrong. Americans suck at this, myself included. Weng Cheng-Pang beat my ass because he shot so damn fast. Even had our positions been reversed, I couldn't keep up with his 3-4 second shot in those gusts.


----------



## Boomer2094

Limbwalker,

Do you think over-aiming is the issue here? Or the draw cycle is the issue? How come Koreans has such a smooth and apparently effortless shot cycle and we, the Americans, can't replicate?

love to hear you and other experienced archer's take on this.


----------



## limbwalker

Boomer2094 said:


> Limbwalker,
> 
> Do you think over-aiming is the issue here? Or the draw cycle is the issue? How come Koreans has such a smooth and apparently effortless shot cycle and we, the Americans, can't replicate?
> 
> love to hear you and other experienced archer's take on this.


Can't say I'm an expert on this because I don't know the Korean's training well enough to say. But I believe they are trained from the get-go to shoot faster, and yes, I believe us Americans get obsessed with aiming. I know my years of shooting traditional bows without consciously aiming (some call "instinctive shooting") helps me not overaim though. I just get stuck in the process - settle in with the weight and stop moving. But mine isn't an aiming issue. For others it is though.


----------



## Stash

It always boils down to a degree of doubt. It’s all in the ability to maintain confidence, trust your technique, and not worry about the outcome.

It’s a tiny version of target panic, in a way. Nobody over-aims on a blank bale because there’s no fear of missing.


----------



## limbwalker

Stash said:


> It always boils down to a degree of doubt. It’s all in the ability to maintain confidence, trust your technique, and not worry about the outcome.


Once a person is trained to shoot quickly, I would agree with you there. However, a lot of us never trained ourselves to shoot quickly, so we're just falling back on our (slow) process and paying for it in the gusty conditions.


----------



## >--gt-->

Stash said:


> It always boils down to a degree of doubt. It’s all in the ability to maintain confidence, trust your technique, and not worry about the outcome.
> 
> It’s a tiny version of target panic, in a way. Nobody over-aims on a blank bale because there’s no fear of missing.


Stan,

If anything you might be understating things. Nothing “tiny” about some of what we saw in terms of freezing. The shifts to arms from back we saw, the occasional wild follow-throughs, etc. were all clear indicators that at least 20% of that field- maybe more- has issues from time to time.

However, it’s also arguably possible to _under_-aim, as we perhaps most notably saw with the great 1/32 pass, followed by the crash and burn in the 1/16, from CHN’s YANG Xiaolei.


----------



## Hobby Shooter

It appears to me that it is a matter of training and trust in your technique as Stash said. I remember Darrel Pace saying in an interview that from 4 to 9 seconds was the prime shooting time, under 4 he saw as panic shooting and over 9, let down and start over. Rick, in a workshop said from 1 1/2 to 2 seconds at anchor was probably excellent. Looking at the records of these two, when they were at their peak, they were the best in the world. Yet even for these two, there was a difference of from 2 to 7 seconds for a shot cycle. Also, if you remember, Jay Barrs was another very quick shooter and it stood him in good stead.

I would think that the archers own training and comfort level, as well as confidence in their technique would be the deciding factor. I think Stash's statement of trust in your own technique is probably the best take on it. Without the trust and confidence in your own technique, it doesn't make much difference - but then, you probably aren't at the Olympic level either.


----------



## Draven Olary

John, I wrote you two words I was told / taught regarding mental attitude required during an action (shooting a bow, using a sword etc) to succeed:
absoluteness of the shot --> is not dependent upon external conditions (for instance in this Olympics, your shot is not wind dependent, your sequence should be the same as in a calm day)
definitiveness of the shot --> it is final, there is no place for "second try" in your mind (there is no place for "should I keep 8 red right or 6 blue down?" at full draw)
I doubt the koreans are trained to shoot fast - the speed is a consequence of a mindset educated since they were very young, something that was maturing with their shot.

PS This type of mindset Brady had for his shot when he won in shootout and he said about this in his movie: he decided to not change the sight and aim between 8-9 based on his observation of his arrow and competitor's arrow. He hold it between 8-9 and he shot it. He got the 10 and won.


----------



## nakedape

cerelestecerele said:


> Now that we've got the full brackets for the 1/8 rounds, it's interesting to see how many upsets there are.
> In the women, the qualification round ranks of those remaining are: 1,3,4,5,8,9,13,16,18,19,21,22,23,31,38,39, so half of them have already beaten at least one better ranked archer, and two beat two.
> And for the men it's a much wider range:
> 2,4,10,11,12,16,20,24,27,33,35,39,40,46,47,60. So 7 of them have managed two upsets and 5 have managed one. In 2016 only three archers ranked past 32 made it this far and nobody ranked 16-32.
> Was the wind more variable over the field during the men's qualification round? That would make upsets more likely when two archers with similar wind reading ability but different wind exposure during the qualification then shot against each other in match play.


It's because of the gap of skill difference between the top vs bottom ranked women is much wider than men.

it's like that in almost all sports.


----------



## limbwalker

Draven Olary said:


> John, I wrote you two words I was told / taught regarding mental attitude required during an action (shooting a bow, using a sword etc) to succeed:
> absoluteness of the shot --> is not dependent upon external conditions (for instance in this Olympics, your shot is not wind dependent, your sequence should be the same as in a calm day)
> definitiveness of the shot --> it is final, there is no place for "second try" in your mind (there is no place for "should I keep 8 red right or 6 blue down?" at full draw)
> *I doubt the koreans are trained to shoot fast - the speed is a consequence of a mindset educated since they were very young, something that was maturing with their shot.*
> 
> PS This type of mindset Brady had for his shot when he won in shootout and he said about this in his movie: he decided to not change the sight and aim between 8-9 based on his observation of his arrow and competitor's arrow. He hold it between 8-9 and he shot it. He got the 10 and won.


We're saying the same thing in two different ways I think.


----------



## Draven Olary

I was under the impression that you're accent was on speed - trained to be quick. My bad.
PS I remember one of Coach Kim videos talking about clicker and beginner who starts with the tip covered 7mm by the clicker and goes down based on how good he improves technically. This is not training to be quick, it's training to build confidence in your sequence.


----------



## limbwalker

Draven Olary said:


> I was under the impression that you're accent was on speed - trained to be quick. My bad.


I used the simpler way of saying it (training). You used the more nuanced way - "educated mindset."
They have been taught a process from an early age that allows them to shoot more quickly but shooting quickly was not the goal. Rather a by-product or beneficial consequence of the dedication to the process they learn.

I used "trained" as shorthand. But you're right to correct that because it could mislead some.


----------



## nakedape

Skeptix_907 said:


> Didn't think i'd see another MMA fan on this forum lol. That was a great win by Namajunas, I watched that fight live.
> 
> I also get Chael Sonnen vibes. Except this archer really IS the best haha.


LOL, I can see Uncle Chael saying that.

And as a way to psyche out your opponents.

Different approaches I guess, "getting selfish" to feed your family. (Connor?)

or the more zen approach of Lyoto and Anderson.


----------



## cerelestecerele

>--gt--> said:


> Absolutely. If you were in the middle of the field, you definitely had a disadvantage- the USA men were smack in the middle.
> 
> Big tailwind coming over the top of the structure (which blocked the wind at the line to some degree) behind the field during ranking put a tail-first downdraft on the arrows at about 40 meters off the line, so hard to feel and hard to compensate.
> 
> You can literally look at the ranking list scores, and with one eye on the column for target assignment, you can actually see the correlation. Plug it into excel and analyze the target number vs score and it jumps out.


Thanks - done the graph of score vs distance from centre of the field and it's nicely visible, though as a lot of the top ranked archers were on the sides I'm tracking down everyone's previous best qualification score so as to compare the difference between the scores and target location in case that's of a similar significance to the wind. 

Do you know if the women were up against much more or less wind on average than the men?


----------



## Vittorio

Too many are simply dividing archers between fast shooters and long aimers. But there is no way for an archer to become a champion without aiming, so the top level training is not in shooting fast, but in being able to aim fast and do the proper sequence without mistakes fast WHEN NEEDED, not ever. As somebody else mentioned already, an archer releasing too fast after contacts is showing clear sympthoms of target panic. These archers can score sometimes very high, may win sometimes, but usually will not have a long track of top level success if not able to control aiming. 
Difference between Kang and An is for instance very evident in this, and in any critical situation with wind or bad weather, Kang will win. Let's see what will happen in the real world tomorrow.


----------



## nakedape

Any fans of Valentina Acosta? 

Currently the most popular competitive archer?!
Singlehandedly boost the viewership of oly recurve archery competition by 30%? (just guessing here)

From WA channel on Youtube. The 2nd most viewed video (Valentina Acosta vs Ana) has 10 mil views!

WA has the same Valentina vs Ana video on their FB page with a whopping 33 mil views!

and has been using her image heavily this past week in their FB posts. (Hey, gotta get those clicks! ) (They should be paying her, LOL)

Valentina has 1.5 mil followers on her instagram. (WA has 141k followers)

She finished 50th in the ranking round with a 627 and knocked out in the first elimination round.

Her 1st elimination round courtesy of telemundo!


----------



## limbwalker

nakedape said:


> Any fans of Valentina Acosta?
> 
> Currently the most popular competitive archer?!
> Singlehandedly boost the viewership of oly recurve archery competition by 30%? (just guessing here)
> 
> From WA channel on Youtube. The 2nd most viewed video (Valentina Acosta vs Ana) has 10 mil views!
> 
> WA has the same Valentina vs Ana video on their FB page with a whopping 33 mil views!
> 
> and has been using her image heavily this past week in their FB posts. (Hey, gotta get those clicks! ) (They should be paying her, LOL)


PAY the girl!


----------



## nakedape

LOL, I agree with you there!

WA needs to do a Lars Anderson video also! For god sake, his top video has 58 mil views and almost 600K subs on his channel.

Man, WA should hire me to do their marketing.


----------



## nakedape

in the age of click bait titles... 
(or a really bad pun)

*Seventeen-year-old American Casey Kaufhold bows out of archery tourney*


----------



## nakedape

that 6 
what happened there?


----------



## nakedape

South Korean archer's short hair draws anti-feminist sentiment at home


The short haircut of South Korean archer An San, who has won two gold medals at the Tokyo Olympics, has attracted anti-feminist sentiment at home.




www.reuters.com





TOKYO, July 29 (Reuters) - The short haircut of South Korean archer An San, who has won two gold medals at the Tokyo Olympics, has attracted anti-feminist sentiment at home.

Online abuse, calling her hairstyle "feminist", comes against a backdrop of rising anti-feminist sentiment among South Korean young men.

The 20-year-old archer won South Korea's first gold on Saturday, then claimed another gold in the women's team event.

After she won a matchplay in the 1/16 elimination round of the women's individual event on Thursday, her coach blocked reporters from asking "unnecessary" questions, apparently aware of the controversy.


An herself said she would answer only questions related to the Games, even before a reporter finished a question about the online hostility.

Growing animosity toward feminism and public policy to promote women's rights has become a hot topic in South Korea.

Some South Korean politicians and celebrities posted messages and their own short-hair photos to support An.

"With that firm look, please shoot through every prejudice in the world. We stand by your short-cut hair and support you," Sim Sang-jung, a lawmaker from a minority Justice Party, said in a tweet.


Another post urged people to call the Korea Archery Association to defend An from online hatred.


=====









Despite two Olympic golds, anti-feminists focus on An San's hair


Korean national team archer An San won two gold medals for Team Korea at the 2020 Tokyo Olympics, but rather than being lauded for her achievement, the 20-year-old female archer is being criticized for the length of her hair. An was initially ...



koreajoongangdaily.joins.com


----------



## limbwalker

nakedape said:


> that 6
> what happened there?


It happens.


----------



## nakedape

Discovering the ancient Japanese art of archery from horseback



nice little side story about Japanese horseback archery from the Today show
of course, that lady has to throw her 2 cents in about men vs women (probably baited by the reporter)
LOL


----------



## nakedape

Anime fans out there?
Never heard of Attack on Titan, maybe I will check it out...









Tokyo Olympics Hype Archery Round with Attack on Titan Music


Despite the ongoing pandemic, the Tokyo Olympics have gotten underway at last. The delayed event [...]




comicbook.com


----------



## nakedape

LOL, I was thinking this in my mind when I saw their facebook post!
Man, WA really should hire me for their PR marketing, 









Archery-World Archery's tweet in "chop suey" font receives backlash


The World Archery Federation's use of a font associated with racism against Asians in a tweet celebrating South Korea's Olympic archers on Wednesday has raised eyebrows online.




www.reuters.com





World Archery Federation's spokesperson said the use of the font in the tweet to promote archers from South Korea, which dominates Olympic archery, was not racist.

South Korea has won three gold medals in all archery teams events at Tokyo and is competing at individual competitions.

Chris Wells said the World Archery Federation, formed in 1931 to develop and promote archery as an Olympic sport, had used the font to match the style of its Tokyo 2020 logo of a Japanese enso, a hand-drawn circle in a single stroke to describe the archery target.


But the font drew criticism online with users blaming the federation for choosing the wrong font.

One reply from a Twitter handle @dj__the__kid said the federation revealed "its sheer racial bias even toward the champions in Olympic Games".


----------



## nakedape

Those heartbeat numbers in archery? Don't stress too much about them


The latest TV innovation is an indication only of calm, it need not correlate to performance.




www.espn.in





Oh Jin-Hyek looked absolutely at ease at the start of his Round of 16 match with Indian's Atanu Das at the Tokyo Olympics on Thursday. His heart rate when he took his first shot of the match was 108 beats a minute (BPM) - about as much as you'd expect from someone out for a walk in the park, which is perhaps what Oh - a legend of the sport , with two Olympic gold medals - expected his match with Atanu to be.

At the same time, Atanu's heart rate was 144bpm. He knew he was in for a fight. We know these stats because of a helpful feature that has been introduced in the TV coverage of the Olympics archery event - a special camera that tracks changes in body temperature and skin colour to measure heart rate, and thereby measure stress levels in the athlete.


----------



## limbwalker

Just re-watched Mac's matches. Man she looks strong right now. I really like her chances of being the first US woman to medal since 1988 and if I know her, she does too.

Go Mackenzie!


----------



## limbwalker

Mac's up 4-2 and shooting well. GO MAC!


----------



## limbwalker

YES! 28/28/27/28 for the win! Way to go MAC! 

She's on a roll. I really like her chances.

Hell, now I'm gonna have to stay up...


----------



## TwentySix

Women’s picks: Kumari, Valencia, Brown.


----------



## nakedape

Valencia 29/28/27

Place ur bets.


----------



## limbwalker

Highest finish by a US woman in 33 years?

Khatuna in China - 5th. 

Mac's got a tough match ahead of her, but I like her chances.


----------



## woof156

An San she just keeps hitting 10, best bow hand in the group...Gold


----------



## nakedape

holy cow! 
AN-mazing!

LOL


----------



## limbwalker

she's like, let me show you what 30 looks like... LOL


----------



## limbwalker

In Hayakawa's defense, that's one hell of a losing score.


----------



## limbwalker

An and Kumari... Oh my


----------



## nakedape

Kang Chaeyoung!
easy route to the finals


----------



## nakedape

Tanith White on how mental strength is key to archery


Archery requires extreme mental fitness. Tanith White looks at how the U.S. Olympic archery team trains both their bodies and minds and tries out the sport for herself.




www.nbcolympics.com





its all in ur head


----------



## AvalonPlusGuy

limbwalker said:


> Highest finish by a US woman in 33 years?
> 
> Khatuna in China - 5th.


eh, Khatuna 4th in London 2012


----------



## limbwalker

AvalonPlusGuy said:


> eh, Khatuna 4th in London 2012


I stand corrected. Thanks!


----------



## TwentySix

I don’t see the livestream in the free version of Peacock. Can someone post a bracket of who is left and matches?


----------



## AvalonPlusGuy

TwentySix said:


> I don’t see the livestream in the free version of Peacock. Can someone post a bracket of who is left and matches?


----------



## AvalonPlusGuy

top half of draw loaded with top 10 ranking rounds. Bottom half just one - Miss Kang.


----------



## TwentySix

Thank you. So that’s tough to predict. Kumari or Brown


----------



## limbwalker

AvalonPlusGuy said:


> View attachment 7440358


Top half of that is STRONG


----------



## limbwalker

TwentySix said:


> Thank you. So that’s tough to predict


I can predict Kang has an easy path to the gold medal match. LOL


----------



## FerrumVeritas

limbwalker said:


> I can predict Kang has an easy path to the gold medal match. LOL


I don't know. When Wu's been on, she's been really on.


----------



## FerrumVeritas

Every match in that top half has, at best, 60/40 odds I think. Should be good entertainment, if nothing else. On the other hand, a Wu/Kang match is a pretty safe prediction. 
While I'd like to see Mack in the finals, I don't think it's going to happen. 
If Kumari beats An, it's hard to imagine her not getting gold. I think the winner of that match will be in the finals though.
If Wu wins, I think Kang is a lock for bronze. But I don't see Wu beating anyone in the top half that makes it to the finals. If Kang wins, I think Wu vs Mack would be a very exciting bronze medal match.

That being said, my record for predictions has been terrible!


----------



## nakedape

TwentySix said:


> Thank you. So that’s tough to predict. Kumari or Brown


I think you meant Brown vs Valencia is hard to predict...

An beats Kumari easy

All Korean final.

Good luck ladies, LOL


----------



## DarkMuppet

Osipova is the one I'd say will win. She's been solid all the way through. Just needs to win against Kang.


----------



## Ray.L

Looks like Kang's finals path wasn't so easy.


----------



## Ray.L

Wow, what a match between Mack and Alejandra.


----------



## iceman747

Ray.L said:


> Wow, what a match between Mack and Alejandra.


Valencia is going to be thinking about the last shot in her first two sets for the next three years.


----------



## Montalaar

nakedape said:


> I think you meant Brown vs Valencia is hard to predict...


It certainly was an interesting match. I guess Valencia will be annoyed by her own performance...


----------



## "TheBlindArcher"

Ray.L said:


> Wow, what a match between Mack and Alejandra.



Am I reading IANSEO correctly, Ms. Brown with closest 10?


----------



## Ray.L

"TheBlindArcher" said:


> Am I reading IANSEO correctly, Ms. Brown with closest 10?


Yes. The difference was ~1.5mm, if I caught the measurements correctly.


----------



## nakedape

Welp, that's why I don't gamble, LOL


----------



## nakedape

Screw it, who wants to bet? 
AN or BROWN? 

LOL


----------



## limbwalker

Mac is on a mission alright. So happy for her.


----------



## limbwalker

Great start!


----------



## limbwalker

Ugh. Nothing you can do about 30's!


----------



## "TheBlindArcher"

Have been following quietly; so have the winds improved, the rounds being held in a "better" location, or have the archers adapted to the weather? Seems ;like the end scores are a bit better than earlier.


----------



## nakedape

damn....


----------



## limbwalker

Just damn


----------



## Ray.L

Incredible.


----------



## limbwalker

The 10's tho...


----------



## Ray.L

The level of shooting is amazing.


----------



## limbwalker

Years of training are about to come down to just a few arrows...


----------



## limbwalker

Mac's like, oh I know how to count to 30 too...  LOL


----------



## limbwalker

"TheBlindArcher" said:


> Have been following quietly; so have the winds improved, the rounds being held in a "better" location, or have the archers adapted to the weather? Seems ;like the end scores are a bit better than earlier.


I'm not watching live - only scores, but the wind HAS to be down compared to earlier. That's the only way they are shooting 30's.


----------



## limbwalker

ONE MORE ARROW


----------



## limbwalker

GAH!!!!!


----------



## Ray.L

Oh man, might be Mack's win, or might be shoot-off.


----------



## Ray.L

Oh man, so close. But An San moves to the gold match.


----------



## limbwalker

well ****


----------



## Itsjtome

wow.


----------



## iceman747

I thought they called mack's arrows pretty fast on set 5. That second shot looked ridiculously close.


----------



## limbwalker

I hope she can shake that off quickly. What a performance.


----------



## nakedape

AN-mazing!

I wonder if people in Seoul are watching this?

Congrats to both ladies!


----------



## limbwalker

I really like her chances for bronze. Mac is incredibly tough and that close loss will just motivate her I think.


----------



## nakedape

I gonna cut my hair short like An San if she wins gold.


----------



## limbwalker

Boari's best effort was 26. That's not gonna hang with Mac right now.


----------



## Itsjtome

nakedape said:


> AN-mazing!
> 
> I wonder if people in Seoul are watching this?
> 
> Congrats to both ladies!


yes


----------



## nakedape

Itsjtome said:


> yes


awesome!


----------



## limbwalker

Mac's alignment is better than it used to be. Her draw elbow is perfectly in line now. I don't recall seeing it quite like that in the past. She cleaned up her release a touch too.


----------



## limbwalker

Chris is probably having to hold her back right now. LOL


----------



## limbwalker

I don't expect this Bronze match to be close tbh


----------



## DarkMuppet

Osipova has been quietly one of the most consistent archers, she held up the Russian team in the team event, easily being top scorer. 
Even if she was wearing neutral clothes, you'd recognise that Russian style of shooting. Not as much as Perova's but its unmistakable.


----------



## Vittorio

limbwalker said:


> I don't expect this Bronze match to be close tbh


Lucilla has already paid her ticket to the emotion ...


----------



## limbwalker

Best way to follow scores live that I've found -









Tokyo 2020 Men's Individual Results - Olympic archery


Find out who took home gold, silver and bronze in 2020. Official results of the archery Men's Individual event at the Tokyo Summer Olympics.




olympics.com


----------



## limbwalker

Oh boy...


----------



## limbwalker

TEN! GO MAC!


----------



## limbwalker

ah sht


----------



## limbwalker

Mac needs a 10 right now


----------



## limbwalker

I feel ya Mac. Hold it together!


----------



## nakedape

oh wow...


----------



## limbwalker

Well dammit. 

Wish I could say I didn't know how she feels. But unfortunately... 

Man that's rough to come so close. 

She's still a champion in my book. She shot so damn well.


----------



## Vittorio

As I said before ...


----------



## limbwalker

Congratulations to Boari. That was excellent shooting.

Congratulations also to Chris Webster. Well done.


----------



## Itsjtome

don’t know if this works outside of korea, but heres a link for the gold medal match from korean broadcasters


----------



## DarkMuppet

MK has to be happy with 2 of their bows on the ladies podium. Order to be decided now..


----------



## limbwalker

I have a feeling a locker just got it. LOL Gonna be interesting to see what Mac does with this loss. 4th is the hardest place to finish at the Games. You never stop thinking about it and if you do, someone will ask you about it.


----------



## limbwalker

huh, An is human...


----------



## limbwalker

I'm sitting here wondering if the men will shoot as many 30's in the last four matches as the women have. I bet not.


----------



## Ray.L

The pressure on An must be crazy. Last female Korean and possible hat trick of gold medals.


----------



## limbwalker

When was the last time we saw a Russian woman in the gold medal match? I can't recall.


----------



## limbwalker

Ray.L said:


> The pressure on An must be crazy. Last female Korean and possible hat trick of gold medals.


Two 8's in the final... so far.


----------



## limbwalker

Time to see what An is made of


----------



## limbwalker

If this last arrow is a 10, it's over. No way she's losing in a shoot off.


----------



## limbwalker

Close enough.


----------



## Ray.L

Well, we'll see. These matches have been full of surprises.


----------



## limbwalker

One arrow for the gold. Holy cripes


----------



## Ray.L

There it is. An San is the champion.


----------



## limbwalker

limbwalker said:


> If this last arrow is a 10, it's over. No way she's losing in a shoot off.


Like I said.

All she had to do was get to that shoot off.


----------



## limbwalker

Welp, back to bed. LOL


----------



## ItsJim

Wow! An exciting event all the way to the Gold. My favorite match was seeing Mack take An San to a shoot off.


----------



## nakedape

She made the history book.

An San for president!


----------



## Itsjtome

oh my


----------



## nakedape

Itsjtome said:


> oh my



I hope all korean girls copy her haircut from now on.


----------



## DarkMuppet

4 so far. No pressure Woojin, no pressure....


----------



## josh_gml

Soo...if this is what is being shot with less erratic wind i cant wait for the man's finals. 

Also Vittorio when was the last time Italy won a medal in the woman's category?


Stellar shooting, enjoyed it!


----------



## Vittorio

josh_gml said:


> Soo...if this is what is being shot with less erratic wind i cant wait for the man's finals.
> 
> Also Vittorio when was the last time Italy won a medal in the woman's category?
> 
> 
> Stellar shooting, enjoyed it!


Italy had till today:
Men Bronze -- Giancarlo Ferrari --1976
Men Bronze -- Giancarlo Ferrari --1980
Men Team Bronze -- Franglli, Bisiani, Parenti --1996
MenTeam Gold -- Frangilli, Bisiani, Di Buo' --- 2000
Men Gold -- Marco Galiazzo --2004
MenTeam Silver --- Nespoli , Galiazzo, Du Buo' --- 2008
Men Team Gold --- Frangilli, Galiazzo, Nespoli --- 2012
Best Women placement: Lionetti, 2012, 7th
I suppose Natalia Valeeva getting 2 Bronze in 1992 can't be counted, as she was not Italian, yet.


----------



## Metropolis

An San for her first games : top seeded qualification, an Olympic Record, 3 gold medals / 3.
Just miss the Olympic record by team.
Osipova has nothing to be ashamed as she went to tie-break with the same score during the match (141/150).


----------



## DarkMuppet

That smile as Osipova came off the line was great to see. The relief of finishing was immense I'd imagine.


----------



## tassie_devil

DarkMuppet said:


> That smile as Osipova came off the line was great to see. The relief of finishing was immense I'd imagine.


Yeah, My wife and We’re talking about how nice it was to see ‘the loser’ smiling. I think it was after Ana Vazquez was timed out, she just turned around and smiled, ‘oops’. I’m sure some might have a little cry later - more as an outlet - but there really aren’t losers at the Olympics. By definition almost.


----------



## woof156

Kang's match just goes to show anyone but anyone can have that bad day and Osipova really had a great day-- congrats to her...


----------



## DarkMuppet

From pretty much when I saw her shooting in the team event, I thought she stood a very good chance of going all the way in the individuals. I'm fairly certain she was the highest scorer by quite a margin on her team and just seemed very confident overall. 

You can definitely tell she's Russian, she shares a very similar, almost bolshy style to Kesina Perova but is a little more refined.
She's not the world number 4 for nothing, but she seemed to slip under everyone's radar and wasn't even talked about before the finals. She will be now...


----------



## limbwalker

tassie_devil said:


> Yeah, My wife and We’re talking about how nice it was to see ‘the loser’ smiling. I think it was after Ana Vazquez was timed out, she just turned around and smiled, ‘oops’. I’m sure some might have a little cry later - more as an outlet - but there really aren’t losers at the Olympics. By definition almost.


I agree with you, but 4th place is hard. Really hard. I pray that Mac will see all the great work she put in and her great performance against the very best in the world and use it as fuel. Knowing her, she will.


----------



## tassie_devil

limbwalker said:


> but 4th place is hard. Really hard.


Yeah. I get that. Partly why I really feel for Sjef. LIke you said before, the locker might have got it. I get that too. But she too shot super well. I think she will realise that. It was her earlier match where I decided the ‘27 was safe’ threshold would need an upgrade for the day.

Can’t wait for tomorrow, although I see Taylor Worth drew “Aussie-bane” Gazoz. Hope he can squeak through. That said there aren’t many shooters I don’t like in the last 16, so I’m happy to just sit back and be impressed/jealous!


----------



## Ray.L

If Ellison is to make it to the gold medal match, he has a tough day ahead of him.


----------



## woof156

What a great match with Brown Valencia wow, the 1/2 mm offset at release is the difference between 10 and 9 at that distance-- both shot so well--wow. Shoot off couldn't have been better for these two....wow what a match congrats Brown wow wow and Valencia congrats to you as well -- excellent shooting.


----------



## tassie_devil

Ray.L said:


> If Ellison is to make it to the gold medal match, he has a tough day ahead of him.


If today is any indication, I suspect there won’t be many easy days tomorrow!


----------



## limbwalker

Ray.L said:


> If Ellison is to make it to the gold medal match, he has a tough day ahead of him.


They are all tough matches at this point. So little room for error and so many variables. The archers with the toughest mental game will have the advantage, sure, but they will also need a bit of luck too.


----------



## woof156

I don't know if the heart rate monitor on the field were accurate but my HR was elevated....what great shooting MacKenzie you were great kudos to your effort and ability to deal with the pressure--..when mm on the target separate victor and non victor..

And as good as Mac's shooting was in the the match with An she was equally bad in the bronze metal match-- too bad but consistency is what it is about..


----------



## Boomer2094

It's a shame that Mac lost on one arrow... but she can hang her head high. She took the eventual Gold Medal winner to the shoot off. That's outstanding shooting for her. 

As for the bronze medal match...what happened to her on 3rd and 4th end? She was still in the game until she shot that 7...


----------



## limbwalker

Boomer2094 said:


> It's a shame that Mac lost on one arrow... but she can hang her head high. She took the eventual Gold Medal winner to the shoot off. That's outstanding shooting for her.
> 
> As for the bronze medal match...what happened to her on 3rd and 4th end? She was still in the game until she shot that 7...


Many will speculate and some will even tell you they "know" what happened, but only Mac really knows. 

My guess is Vittorio's comment would be a clue, but I don't claim to know. Only she does.

Those two ends will be replayed through her mind 1M times over the next 3 years.


----------



## limbwalker

woof156 said:


> I don't know if the heart rate monitor on the field were accurate but my HR was elevated....what great shooting MacKenzie you were great kudos to your effort and ability to deal with the pressure--..when mm on the target separate victor and non victor..
> 
> And as good as Mac's shooting was in the the match with An *she was equally bad* in the bronze metal match-- too bad but consistency is what it is about..


She was not bad, she was human. There was nothing "bad" about that performance IMO.


----------



## Boomer2094

Oh, I don't expect anyone to answer that... I'm just thinking out loud.

I have no doubt that end 3 and 4 of the 2020 Olympic bronze medal match will be in her mind for a long time... maybe even the rest of her life. The thing is, will she use it as motivation to get even better, or will it give her doubts about her shooting and negatively affect het shooting in the future?

We shall see.


----------



## limbwalker

Boomer2094 said:


> Oh, I don't expect anyone to answer that... I'm just thinking out loud.
> 
> I have no doubt that end 3 and 4 of the 2020 Olympic bronze medal match will be in her mind for a long time... maybe even the rest of her life. The thing is, will she use it as motivation to get even better, or will it give her doubts about her shooting and negatively affect het shooting in the future?
> 
> We shall see.


From what I know about Mac, she only uses experiences like that as motivation to get better. She has incredible self-belief which is common among Olympians. They use that self-belief to attack problems, knowing they will eventually get them sorted out. She is lucky in that she has time to sort it out. Not everyone who finished 4th at the Olympics will get another chance.


----------



## limbwalker

I will add that 4th at the Olympics is the toughest spot to finish because you will always know you had 2 chances to medal and we never get 2 chances in this sport. That's hard to deal with mentally.


----------



## Boomer2094

Thanks for sharing your view on this! From what I have observed from her over the years, I have no doubt that she will bounce back from this.

How old is Mackenzie? She will be back in 2024, but could she go for 2028 and 2032?


----------



## woof156

limbwalker said:


> She was not bad, she was human. There was nothing "bad" about that performance IMO.


maybe a better word would have been inconsistent not bad-- a this level with that pressure she was not bad... wrong choice of words on my part. "Bad" is a peanut gallery word.....


----------



## limbwalker

Boomer2094 said:


> Thanks for sharing your view on this! From what I have observed from her over the years, I have no doubt that she will bounce back from this.
> 
> How old is Mackenzie? She will be back in 2024, but could she go for 2028 and 2032?


I believe she's 26 now. Should be in her prime in 2024. Chances are, this experience will help her in three years.

Heh, I just realized she's the same age Vic was in Athens. Wow time flies by fast...


----------



## jlocke

I am new to archery but how Mackenzie’s two matches with An and Boari ended just rips my guts out. We need to figure this out—what works for our US athletes—and start winning these elite matches. We need to do it for our athletes, the ones who put in the god-awful amount of time and effort.

I teach at a university and a colleague is a great guy who is from South Korea. He and I have had several discussions—way before I took up archery—about their educational system, how their kids are raised, etc. I would never advocate trying to replicate their culture but I know we can do better for our athletes.

I am in no way implying that everyone involved isn’t trying. But, I hope people a lot smarter than I am can figure it out.

What Mackenzie did was phenomenal. Absolutely wonderful. But I feel for her having to settle for fourth place. On the other hand, I’d trade my pitiful backyard shooting, bumbling and arrow spraying from a mere 20 meters to be in her position in a heartbeat! Well done, Miss Brown. You represented us with character and tenacity and I am proud you’re on my team.


----------



## limbwalker

jlocke said:


> I am new to archery but how Mackenzie’s two matches with An and Boari ended just rips my guts out. We need to figure this out—what works for our US athletes—and start winning these elite matches. We need to do it for our athletes, the ones who put in the god-awful amount of time and effort.
> 
> I teach at a university and a colleague is a great guy who is from South Korea. He and I have had several discussions—way before I took up archery—about their educational system, how their kids are raised, etc. I would never advocate trying to replicate their culture but I know we can do better for our athletes.
> 
> I am in no way implying that everyone involved isn’t trying. But, I hope people a lot smarter than I am can figure it out.
> 
> What Mackenzie did was phenomenal. Absolutely wonderful. But I feel for her having to settle for fourth place. On the other hand, I’d trade my pitiful backyard shooting, bumbling and arrow spraying from a mere 20 meters to be in her position in a heartbeat! Well done, Miss Brown. You represented us with character and tenacity and I am proud you’re on my team.


Well, this is precisely why the then-NAA hired a Korean coach in 2005. For the reasons you are citing. And she is a direct product of his training. I am not sure how we could have had a better chance than we had last night to be honest. I think she has some room to work on her mental game. I think she can be guilty of trying too hard and being too hard on herself. But I don't know that. Only she knows that. I also think Chris is good for her and the women's program and he will help her and the rest of them sort it out before 2024. I think they have an awful lot to build on, and he (Chris) came in at a good time - maybe not for these games but a good time for 2024.


----------



## >--gt-->

Vittorio said:


> I suppose Natalia Valeeva getting 2 Bronze in 1992 can't be counted, as she was not Italian, yet.


Perhaps not, but she sure was valuable in Italy’s coaches’ box yesterday. Can you imagine the confidence you would get with a shooter like that as your line coach? I can.


In the meantime, there’s another podcast with Steve Anderson and Braden Gellenthein prognosticating on tonight’s matches.

Apple podcasts: ‎Easton Target Archery Podcast: Easton Target Archery Podcast 144- The Tokyo Olympic Men's Finals on Apple Podcasts

Podbean podcasts:








Easton Target Archery Podcast 144- The Tokyo Olympic Men's Finals


Steve, George, and World Champion Braden Gellenthein provide a recap of the Women's individual championship, and their pre-final analysis of the imminent Men's Individual Finals of the Tokyo Olympic Games. Available on Spotify, Podbean, and Apple Podcasts.




www.podbean.com


----------



## limbwalker

This wait for Brady and Jacob's match is going to kill me. LOL


----------



## nakedape




----------



## Hikari

Of all the competitors, An San earned the Olympic gold. No athlete shot so well and so consistently from the ranking round, through the team events, and into the individual brackets. I am looking forward to seeing this formidable archer in the 2024 games.

🥇

👍


----------



## tassie_devil

Hikari said:


> Of all the competitors, An San earned the Olympic gold. No athlete shot so well and so consistently from the ranking round, through the team events, and into the individual brackets. I am looking forward to seeing this formidable archer in the 2024 games.
> 
> 🥇
> 
> 👍


Agree. Demonstrated both the excellence of technique with OR qualification round and excellence under pressure. Seemingly able to shoot 10s at will when needed. I suspect that she will lead the tournament (male or female) in number of 30 sets and shoot off arrow 10s. 

Absolutely Unreal. Kudos to Vitorrio, who I think called her the next big thing on here about 2 years ago.


----------



## limbwalker

tassie_devil said:


> Agree. Demonstrated both the excellence of technique with OR qualification round and excellence under pressure. Seemingly able to shoot 10s at will when needed. I suspect that she will lead the tournament (male or female) in number of 30 sets and shoot off arrow 10s.
> 
> Absolutely Unreal. Kudos to Vitorrio, who I think called her the next big thing on here about 2 years ago.


Vittorio kinda knows a thing or two.


----------



## Stash

OK, back on.

Nespoli, good start to the day with a 3 set win.


----------



## Vittorio

Stash said:


> OK, back on.
> 
> Nespoli, good start to the day with a 3 set win.


222 km/hr , increased his speed by 7 km/hr, with Dalmeida down from 212 to 209


----------



## Ray.L

Man that's a fast arrow. His scores look strong. Unfortunately for me, state broadcaster won't stream the match until quarters.


----------



## Stash

CBC’s showing it. You’re not home, Ray?


----------



## limbwalker

25's and 26's just aren't going to get it done


----------



## Ray.L

Stash said:


> CBC’s showing it. You’re not home, Ray?


Oh, so it is. I thought it was like the finals for the women yesterday and only going to show the quarters to medals.


----------



## Stash

Nice comeback for Shanny. Shootoff!


----------



## Stash

Excellent 10X for Tang to move on.👍


----------



## Stash

Ok, well, we know who’s boss....


----------



## Stash

Ok, we’re done here.

30-30-30 

Ridiculous.


----------



## Ray.L

Unreal performance.


----------



## Draven Olary

Statement shooting.


----------



## ItsJim

WOW... ! If he keeps that up....


----------



## Stash

Ok Crispin, show us what you got.


----------



## limbwalker

Well damn. I feel for Crispin. But like I said before 26's aren't going to get it done and he knows that.


----------



## Stash

Rats.


----------



## limbwalker

Stash said:


> Rats.


First time I shot with Crispin was the 2004 NFAA indoor nationals in Louisville. I was like, who is this kid who's shooting 300's on a one spot with aluminum arrows? LOL


----------



## ItsJim

Yeah.. by a long shot - not one of Crispin's better days


----------



## tassie_devil

KWJ seems to have turned up with his head screwed on today. Khairul must just nod the had and go ‘yup’.

Lots of juicy matchups today. Damn Gazoz at it again…


----------



## limbwalker

tassie_devil said:


> KWJ seems to have turned up with his head screwed on today. Khairul must just nod the had and go ‘yup’.
> 
> Lots of juicy matchups today. Damn Gazoz at it again…


Has Turkey medaled in men's archery before?


----------



## tassie_devil

Not sure. And I quite like Gazoz. I’m just sick of watching him knock all our archers out


----------



## limbwalker

Drop just 5 points in 12 arrows and your chances of moving on are pretty good.


----------



## Hikari

The Germany/Italy quarterfinals will be interesting...


----------



## Stash

Turkey - If they haven’t before, I got $10 says they will today.

Random thought (no Scotch this time). They’re going to be left with a LOT of target faces with 16 or fewer holes in them. Hope they donate them to local clubs and don’t just toss them in the recycling.

2 x 64 archers for the ranking round = 128 target faces
2 x 176 matches = 352 faces
Plus new faces for shootoffs
Plus all the practise range faces


----------



## Hikari

Tokyo is trying to make sustainability front and center in these Olympics. The gold medals are getting the gold from recycled electronics. So perhaps the target faces will be recycled as well.


----------



## limbwalker

Stash said:


> Turkey - If they haven’t before, I got $10 says they will today.
> 
> Random thought (no Scotch this time). They’re going to be left with a LOT of target faces with 16 or fewer holes in them. Hope they donate them to local clubs and don’t just toss them in the recycling.
> 
> 2 x 64 archers for the ranking round = 128 target faces
> 2 x 176 matches = 352 faces
> Plus new faces for shootoffs
> Plus all the practise range faces


Great observation. After the 2006 Outdoor Nationals event, I saw the NAA staff putting loads of 122's in trash cans and went to Denise to ask if I could take them home for our club. She said sure, so myself and a student and parent collected about 50 122's in a matter of minutes. We didn't have to buy any 122's for three years after that. LOL


----------



## limbwalker

Who else is yawning through this match. No offense, but it's like watching the Browns and Bengals play. LOL


----------



## limbwalker

I'm so ready for Furukawa to kick some butt.


----------



## tassie_devil

We always keep tournament faces for ‘club rounds’. Wednesday night at indoors I shot on face from the state titles a few weeks back. Probably the same one as I shot then as the 10 rings were pristine….


----------



## limbwalker

Here's the pin Furukawa gave me after our 2x 1-arrow shoot off in Turkey. What a great kid. It's my most prized archery pin of all.


----------



## Gregjlongbow

I know I shouldn’t be, but I’m really annoyed that the men’s individual is airing in the middle of the night. I’ve got a 9month old and I value my damn sleep. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## limbwalker

Gregjlongbow said:


> I know I shouldn’t be, but I’m really annoyed that the men’s individual is airing in the middle of the night. I’ve got a 9month old and I value my damn sleep.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


9 month olds are ROUGH. I feel ya!


----------



## Hikari

Gregjlongbow said:


> I know I shouldn’t be, but I’m really annoyed that the men’s individual is airing in the middle of the night. I’ve got a 9month old and I value my damn sleep.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Not the middle of the night in Tokyo...besides, how much sleep is your baby giving you?


----------



## limbwalker

Come on Furukawa... Win one for the "old guys"


----------



## tassie_devil

Hi could do with a click down on the sight…


----------



## Hikari

That lucky 8...


----------



## limbwalker

YES!!!


----------



## Stash

Oh, well, nothing else to see for a couple of hours...😄


----------



## Hikari

You just know what country will advance in the next match...


----------



## Hikari

It is kind of like calling a movie the _Titanic_ and trying not to give spoilers...


----------



## limbwalker

Jacob knows better than to shoot a 25 vs. Brady... Come on Jacob!


----------



## limbwalker

That's more like it.


----------



## limbwalker

Oh the 29's... Gah!


----------



## limbwalker

Looks like the full-time pro will prevail. Well, good for both of them.


----------



## Stash

That was fun to watch.


----------



## Hikari

That was close...


----------



## Ray.L

Yeah, that was a good match. Wukie made him work for that win.


----------



## limbwalker

Can't beat a 30. I hope Brady takes some confidence away from that.

Congrat's to Jacob. For where he is in his life, that is pretty fantastic.


----------



## FerrumVeritas

That last 8...


----------



## Hikari

It looks like Brady/Gazoz. That may be a tight match. But ti is also Furukawa/Li match, which means the Japanese archer may get to the semifinals...


----------



## limbwalker

Hikari said:


> It looks like Brady/Gazoz. That may be a tight match. But ti is also Furukawa/Li match, which means the Japanese archer may get to the quarterfinals...


I hope so!


----------



## Gregjlongbow

Gazoz is tough. When he’s on and having fun he shoots lights out. Brady’s last set looked solid though. Good for Wukie putting it to the best in the world. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Hikari

I guess I am going to have to wait until tomorrow to see where all this leads. Hopefully, these will get posted to YouTube at some point so I can see more than a score board--great shooting never gets old to watch.


----------



## Gregjlongbow

Hikari said:


> I guess I am going to have to wait until tomorrow to see where all this leads. Hopefully, these will get posted to YouTube at some point so I can see more than a score board--great shooting never gets old to watch.


I told myself that I was going to watch this live no matter what. I have only ever watched replays and I always know the outcome. Except for USATs where I’ve been there. Nothing major though. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## woof156

Hikari said:


> It is kind of like calling a movie the _Titanic_ and trying not to give spoilers...


You know if you play the movie Titanic backwards it is a story of a magical ship that rises from the sea and saves a bunch of drowning people and takes them on a luxurious cruise to London.... it is all about perspective.


----------



## limbwalker

woof156 said:


> You know if you play the movie Titanic backwards it is a story of a magical ship that rises from the sea and saves a bunch of drowning people and takes them on a luxurious cruise to London.... it is all about perspective.


Ya, and if we could all live life backwards we would go from old broken down people to taking care of others to healthy young people to children that are being taken care of. LOL


----------



## Gregjlongbow

woof156 said:


> You know if you play the movie Titanic backwards it is a story of a magical ship that rises from the sea and saves a bunch of drowning people and takes them on a luxurious cruise to London.... it is all about perspective.


Right, but think of how exciting it would have been to be there without knowing what was going to happ…wait. Nvm. 


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----------



## Stash

Or, you go from pooping your pants back to pooping your pants...🙁


----------



## Hikari

limbwalker said:


> Ya, and if we could all live life backwards we would go from old broken down people to taking care of others to healthy young people to children that are being taken care of. LOL


I think that is _The Curious Case of Benjamin Button _


----------



## Gregjlongbow

I am actually confused though. It says 12:45am CDT which is my time zone on NBC streaming, but it’s saying 1:30am on my TV. 


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## Gregjlongbow

Going back and watching, Kinm Woojin still gives me a thrill to watch. He’s so damn cool. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## ItsJim

Gregjlongbow said:


> I am actually confused though. It says 12:45am CDT which is my time zone on NBC streaming, but it’s saying 1:30am on my TV.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I've been watching NBC Olympics for the live streaming and it shows Quarter finals starting at 15:00 (3:00PM Japan, 11:00 PM tonight (Friday) PDT). Ellison and Gazoz @ 11:15 PM PDT. I hope I have that figured right.


----------



## strugglesticks

Gregjlongbow said:


> I am actually confused though. It says 12:45am CDT which is my time zone on NBC streaming, but it’s saying 1:30am on my TV.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Same here. 

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk


----------



## Ray.L

Incredible match. Korea's sweep stopped right in its tracks.


----------



## Stash

That was unexpected...


----------



## DarkMuppet

Woojin's head went early in that match. You could literally see him mentally deflate. Pretty much game over when he dropped an arrow where he felt it shouldn't have gone.


----------



## tassie_devil

Wow. I'm gonna have a breakdown....


----------



## ItsJim

Yeah, Brady's gonna have a tough time winning with all the 8s.


----------



## tassie_devil

That Big smile on Gazoz face after that last 10 was priceless. He's flying.


----------



## Gregjlongbow

Oy. Gazoz is good. I’m happy for him, but ouch. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## DarkMuppet

Nice finish by Gazoz.


----------



## tassie_devil

Gregjlongbow said:


> Gazoz is tough. When he’s on and having fun he shoots lights out. Brady’s last set looked solid though. Good for Wukie putting it to the best in the world.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Spot on Greg. He looked so serious for the first few sets. I saw that big smile he had when he followed Brady's first 10 in the last set with one of his own and thought he's back. 

Stash's $10 bucks is looking better by the minute. John's mate Furakawa has his game face on this evening too!


----------



## Gregjlongbow

That smile is how he beat Brady. He enjoyed himself, and when you have fun the pressure is off and you shoot well 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Ray.L

It sounded like Mauro smashed the pinhole camera.


----------



## ItsJim

Nice - Mauro going to the final.


----------



## tassie_devil

Best I’ve seen Mauro shoot. He’s always shot lots of 10s, but he’s not straying into the red here.


----------



## jsh909

That was a great match Gazoz left the door open a few times, but still shooting well and having fun. Going to be tough to beat.


----------



## mdyan

It's a nice touch to always let the Japanese announcer announce Furukawa's name


----------



## jsh909

mdyan said:


> It's a nice touch to always let the Japanese announcer announce Furukawa's name


Opinions may vary, but I think the coverage as a whole has been very good and enjoyable to watch. Commentary, camera work,etc... Been a pleasure to watch thus far


----------



## Metropolis

やったぁぁぁ！
Furukawa bronze : )


----------



## jsh909

This just got interesting. Gazoz seems a little shook, but got his points to tie it up


----------



## ItsJim

Good to see that young man win! Congrats to Mauro on Silver!


----------



## jsh909

Good for him, he turned it on the last couple sets


----------



## Gregjlongbow

That was fun to watch 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## nakedape

Congrats to TANG Chih-Chun 湯智鈞 of Team Taiwan on the 4th place finish! (and taking out Kim Woo Jin)
I believe that's the highest finish in individual event for Taiwan.



















Taiwanese archer Tang Chih-chun loses bronze medal match in Tokyo - Focus Taiwan


Taipei, July 31 (CNA) Taiwanese archer Tang Chih-chun (湯智鈞) saw his hopes for a podium finish dashed Saturday, after he lost the bronze medal match against a Japanese opponent at the Tokyo Olympics.




focustaiwan.tw


----------



## nakedape

안산 An San


----------



## Metropolis

Metropolis said:


> Mete Gazoz
> 10th at qualification which is a good place without beeing in the light (pressure).
> High scorer: 697, 698.
> Already won (Berlin 2019, Mediterranean games 2018),
> already failed (European silver in 2016).
> 22 yo… carefree.


The true winner is me, as I predicted Gazoz : )
I'm really happy for Nespoli. Even if I'm not fan of his shooting style he's a great shooter, great scorer with a long experience, he really deserved this individual medal. However my conclusion is you can win an Olympic final in the wind with 10 pounds less than you opponent, which will prevent us to see repeated injuries in the next 4 years.


----------



## RAzZin

That was an excellent tournament, full of surprises! Congratulations to all medalists, especially to Nespoli and Gazos, that final was unexpected ) I wonder what changes will Korea do after such a huge loss in individual matches.. Probably they will try to up the poundage to high 50s to start with?


----------



## nakedape




----------



## nakedape

RAzZin said:


> I wonder what changes will Korea do after such a huge loss in individual matches..


I am sure someone on the Korean ArcheryTalk will start a thread about firing the coach....


----------



## tassie_devil

RAzZin said:


> That was an excellent tournament, full of surprises! Congratulations to all medalists, especially to Nespoli and Gazos, that final was unexpected ) I wonder what changes will Korea do after such a huge loss in individual matches.. Probably they will try to up the poundage to high 50s to start with?


I reckon that 4/5 gold won’t be seen as a catastrophic failure.


----------



## RAzZin

tassie_devil said:


> I reckon that 4/5 gold won’t be seen as a catastrophic failure.


1 medal out of 6 possible in individual matches.. that's bad result for Korea for sure


----------



## cerelestecerele

Metropolis said:


> The true winner is me, as I predicted Gazoz : )
> I'm really happy for Nespoli. Even if I'm not fan of his shooting style he's a great shooter, great scorer with a long experience, he really deserved this individual medal. However my conclusion is you can win an Olympic final in the wind with 10 pounds less than you opponent, which will prevent us to see repeated injuries in the next 4 years.


Though he's been using high poundage for much longer than that - draw weight was pretty high for his team silver in 2008 (48#) and team gold in 2012 (58#). 
Age may begin play a role in future injuries as he'll be 36 in Paris but he's shown that for himself and only himself and with his careful training, that high draw weight is sustainable over many many years.


----------



## tassie_devil

It’s easy for the best archers to come out on top over 72 arrows. Match play has a few more vagaries and you have to win 5 matches to medal.



RAzZin said:


> 1 medal out of 6 possible in individual matches.. that's bad result for Korea for sure


No. Not bad historically at all. Not their best ever, but in the ballpark. They won both individual gold 2012 (2/6) & in 2016, Ki Bo Bae in Rio added to the individual tally with Bronze (3/6). Men’s gold prior to that (as far back as I can remember is) Rubin (Ukr), Galiazzo (ITA), Fairweather (AUS), Huish (USA), Flute (FRA) maybe? So its not like they’ve had a mortgage on dual gold for ever. I can’t be bothered looking at all the minor placing stuff but I’m betting they’ll take their haul and be happy.

Kim Woojin in particular might want a mulligan on the QF though. He and Brady were probably the only two or the eight that ‘underperformed’ in the QF.


----------



## Hikari

Wow: all I can say is wow! Just got up and that is not the outcome I was expecting. 

Amazing Olympics. Congrats to all the athletes.


----------



## limbwalker

Hikari said:


> Wow: all I can say is wow! Just got up and that is not the outcome I was expecting.
> 
> Amazing Olympics. Congrats to all the athletes.


Same. What a surprise. Although I went to bed comfortably knowing Furukawa was in good shape. A bronze to add to his individual silver. He has a good track record at the Olympics. 

Gazoz was a buzz saw. Oh man.


----------



## Gregjlongbow

And he’s a person who stutters. Pretty neat! 


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----------



## Gregjlongbow

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## tassie_devil

Just found this. He called it 2 years ago:






Played for and got.


----------



## tassie_devil

doh, snap!


----------



## limbwalker

I just realized he shot perfect 30's to beat both Brady and Furukawa. Man that's clutch.


----------



## josh_gml

Stash said:


> Turkey - If they haven’t before, I got $10 says they will today.
> 
> Random thought (no Scotch this time). They’re going to be left with a LOT of target faces with 16 or fewer holes in them. Hope they donate them to local clubs and don’t just toss them in the recycling.
> 
> 2 x 64 archers for the ranking round = 128 target faces
> 2 x 176 matches = 352 faces
> Plus new faces for shootoffs
> Plus all the practise range faces


Good observation. 
When i was volunteering at the Berlin World Cup Volunteers got to take the faces that were used to their clubs. 
Unfortunately this:








face somehow disappeared. I wonder why


----------



## DarkMuppet

RAzZin said:


> That was an excellent tournament, full of surprises! Congratulations to all medalists, especially to Nespoli and Gazos, that final was unexpected ) I wonder what changes will Korea do after such a huge loss in individual matches.. Probably they will try to up the poundage to high 50s to start with?


Absolutely nothing, apart from maybe getting Woojin to practice his mental reset training.  
You could physically see him snap out of his zone and come screaming back to reality, and then get flummoxed and unable to get back into his flow. 

Nespoli did a similar thing just before the last end of the final. Its as if the enormity of the situation suddenly dawned on him, watch his eyes and the giant sigh he gives. 

Archery is indeed a very mental game.


----------



## woof156

Well there is always 2024..........or is there?


----------



## TheElBow

tassie_devil said:


> Just found this. He called it 2 years ago:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Played for and got.











Nobody should say that they couldn't have known.


----------



## SHPoet

Did anyone see the 30 second interview with Brady this morning? He said he is going to start getting ready for Paris 2024.


----------



## FerrumVeritas

SHPoet said:


> Did anyone see the 30 second interview with Brady this morning? He said he is going to start getting ready for Paris 2024.


He just wants his kid to see his dad win a medal. Which, I mean, yeah. Who wouldn’t?


----------



## limbwalker

SHPoet said:


> Did anyone see the 30 second interview with Brady this morning? He said he is going to start getting ready for Paris 2024.


Easy to say in the heat of the moment. I said the same in the days following Athens. Even three years is a long time in this sport. Nothing is guaranteed and honestly I don't see how he could have been any more prepared than he was two days ago.


----------



## centershot

Disappointing. To my untrained eye it looked like huge opportunities missed by both the US men and women. Having the #1 seeds (favorites) knocked out in early rounds left the door wide open.

It was interesting to see how well the Italian shot with his heart rate at aerobic levels. His sight was bouncing and arms shaking, but he stuck them in the middle.


----------



## limbwalker

centershot said:


> Disappointing. To my untrained eye it looked like huge opportunities missed by both the US men and women. Having the #1 seeds (favorites) knocked out in early rounds left the door wide open.
> 
> It was interesting to see how well the Italian shot with his heart rate at aerobic levels. His sight was bouncing and arms shaking, but he stuck them in the middle.


Some shooters can just shoot even when they are shaking. I recall a match vs. a young man (can't remember his name) at the Gold Cup in New Jersey, and he shook like a leaf every shot but he somehow scored well. It was pretty amazing to watch actually.


----------



## Hikari

When was the last time there was no Korean men in the medals?


----------



## limbwalker

Athens was Galiazzo/Yamamoto/Cuddihy. 

Since 2004, Japan has a pretty good track record for individual medals with silver in '04, silver in '12 and now bronze in '20/21


----------



## SHPoet

limbwalker said:


> Easy to say in the heat of the moment. I said the same in the days following Athens. Even three years is a long time in this sport. Nothing is guaranteed and honestly I don't see how he could have been any more prepared than he was two days ago.


Not disagreeing with that statement at all. Just pointing out what he said. I guess we'll know in 2024.


----------



## SHPoet

FerrumVeritas said:


> He just wants his kid to see his dad win a medal. Which, I mean, yeah. Who wouldn’t?


Yes but the kid will only be 3-4 years old when that happens. I doubt he will remember much of it.


----------



## limbwalker

SHPoet said:


> Yes but the kid will only be 3-4 years old when that happens. I doubt he will remember much of it.


Sometimes when a parent wants things for their 3-4 year old, it's more for the parent than for the kid. You are right. I can ask my kids about things that happened when they were 3 or 4 and they never remember what I'm talking about unless it was very traumatic for them, and usually not even then. My youngest was almost four when I went to Athens. She remembers nothing about it. LOL

It's a nice thought - doing something great in front of your young child - but that's all it really is. If it provides additional motivation for the parent, then use it. That's just more fuel for the fire.

I will say the media eats those stories up though. LOL


----------



## Rick McKinney

Brady will continue. That is his job. He has to continue making money for the family which comes from his sponsors, USOPC and US Archery. This is similar to the other major international countries although their salary may come from military, country or some other source. Too bad we don't have a lot of Brady type archers who could make a good living training and competiting.


----------



## Hikari

Rick McKinney said:


> Brady will continue. That is his job. He has to continue making money for the family which comes from his sponsors, USOPC and US Archery. This is similar to the other major international countries although their salary may come from military, country or some other source. Too bad we don't have a lot of Brady type archers who could make a good living training and competiting.


If the money is there. Sometimes continuing is not the athlete's choice. I heard Jake Kaminski left archery because the money dried up--at least this is the account he gave on his YouTube channel. He is in a very small industry that has no obligation to support athletes.


----------



## Rick McKinney

Although Jake was a good archer, he was not in the same class as Brady, thus the sponsorship dollars were not as large. The funding he was receiving from the USOPC and US Archery was equal to Jake's ability. Also, there is more to Jake's story than he is telling but I am not at liberty to explain. Just suffice it to say that there are always two sides of a story.


----------



## limbwalker

Rick McKinney said:


> Although Jake was a good archer, he was not in the same class as Brady, thus the sponsorship dollars were not as large. The funding he was receiving from the USOPC and US Archery was equal to Jake's ability. Also, there is more to Jake's story than he is telling but I am not at liberty to explain. Just suffice it to say that there are always two sides of a story.


Not only that, but if his major sponsor already has Brady, why do they need anyone else? 

There was a time when Hoyt had Butch, Mathews had Vic and PSE had Jenny. Why did any of those sponsors need the 2nd or 3rd best archer when they already had the best that were available?


----------



## jlocke

As a new—and enthusiastic—participant in the sport it is very interesting to read these posts. However, I have no idea who y’all are talking about!


----------



## Hobby Shooter

I agree, Brady will continue, it's in his nature as well as being his job. However, I also tend to agree with limbwalker, I don't think Brady can be any more prepared than he was this time around, at least technically. Brady's problem isn't with his skill level or his technique, I think he isn't quite there mentally. I think he overthinks the Olympics. He is one of the best in the world right now and is the record holder at 70M; he can win almost any tournament he shoots in, except the Olympics. I'm not sure he is convinced he can win the Olympics. I think his thought process goes something like this: "I think I can win the Olympics". I don't think he's at the point were his thought process is: "I can win the Olympics", a small but significant difference. I think he needs to believe he can win the Olympics instead of just thinking he can. That simple change in belief could be the difference in winning or not.


----------



## Stash

Hobby Shooter said:


> I think his thought process goes something like this: "I think I can win the Olympics". I don't think he's at the point were his thought process is: "I can win the Olympics", a small but significant difference. I think he needs to believe he can win the Olympics instead of just thinking he can. That simple change in belief could be the difference in winning or not.


I wouldn’t presume to be an expert on sport psychology, but my own attitude on this (and I wasn’t all that successful at it 😄) was to take the word “Olympic” right out of it.

Many of the archers stepped up to the line with the though of winning the Olympics in mind, when their only thought should have been “this arrow is going into the 10”. Way too much pressure on yourself to consider what’s at stake if you DON’T put this arrow into the 10. I believe (but can’t prove it) that the winners were NOT thinking “this is the Olympics” when they were aiming and executing their shots,

Yeah, I know, easy to say, incredibly tough to do.


----------



## Hobby Shooter

I tend to agree with you, Stash, I also don't think the archers go to the line thinking "this is the Olympics" when they are executing their shot process. If an archer does that, they probably aren't in the Olympics. But I think there is an unconscious process, as well as all the pageantry of the Olympics, that doesn't allow the archer, or any athlete, to forget they are in the Olympics. I think the process is an unconscious one that the athlete isn't even aware of, yet still has a significant impact on their performance. I think one of the things that makes it so insidious is that it's not in one's awareness, hence its in their unconscious thought process.

I suppose one could compare it to a feeling you get when it feels like something isn't quite right, but you can't place your finger on exactly what it is. Something just feels a bit "off" even if you don't know what it is. That kind of thing can be just distracting enough to interfere with performance.

Easy to say you can block that kind of thing out, and not think about it, maybe not so easy to actually do. Consciously you can probably do it, but in the back of your mind, something is still a bit "off".


----------



## nakedape

Kim WJ 





Ellison





Wukie


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## nakedape

Mackenzie Brown (on her Turf)


----------



## nakedape




----------



## nakedape

2020 behind the scene footages from KAA


https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL7RDo9C6qVV6GA_UBwJZ6w9UNRqOCdgwl



Korean archers support footages


https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL7RDo9C6qVV4PIj7szU3rTmyZCKjOmDiM





some old footage of a young Kim Je Deok 김제덕













😍 장혜진 Chang Hye Jin


----------



## lameduck

Did you all notice the new trend? Whoever knocks out the number 1 ranked in the elimination becomes the Gold medal winner?


----------



## nakedape

huh? Unruh knocked out Kim JD (#1)

ur talking about the quarters?


----------



## AR720

lameduck said:


> Did you all notice the new trend? Whoever knocks out the number 1 ranked in the elimination becomes the Gold medal winner?


Lol wat?


----------



## chrstphr

well, that will close our Tokyo 2020.

now its on to Paris 2024 which is only 3 years away. ( Not the usual 4). 

Chris


----------



## jlocke

I read some comments earlier on the thread about elite competitive archers’ ages. Given the nature of the sport, physically, why are there not more middle-age or even senior citizen elite level competitors?? As for some context there are a handful of middle-age competitors in this Olympics in very physically demanding sports; i.e., a 46-year-old gymnast who didn’t do too badly.

So, just wondering, what happens as one ages beyond mid-30-ish that seems to take them out of elite level archery?


----------



## strud

Just watched replay of gold mens medal match, that was awesome... really was anyones at the end there


----------



## Stash

jlocke said:


> So, just wondering, what happens as one ages beyond mid-30-ish that seems to take them out of elite level archery?


The realization that being the best in the world at something that actually has no earthly practical use to anyone might have to take a back seat to family and a job.


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## woof156

Stash said:


> The realization that being the best in the world at something that actually has no earthly practical use to anyone might have to take a back seat to family and a job.


Yeah, life, jobs, family and morgages....


----------



## nakedape

jlocke said:


> So, just wondering, what happens as one ages beyond mid-30-ish that seems to take them out of elite level archery?


it's all downhill after 35


----------



## limbwalker

strud said:


> Just watched replay of gold mens medal match, that was awesome... really was anyones at the end there


True, but you could tell which one was feeling more pressure. Gazoz was just having the time of his life.


----------



## jlocke

woof156 said:


> Yeah, life, jobs, family and morgages....





nakedape said:


> it's all downhill after 35


So you guys are saying that there is no age decline in archery performance? That it’s really obligations and distractions that prevent us from seeing a 55 year-old on the elite line?

Being new to the sport and hoping to gain some semblance of proper form I have been to see a coach (Level 5) once. He was incredible. His form is automatic, smooth and effortless. He is 70+ and has a chronic shoulder injury. Otherwise it’d be great seeing him—and the likes of him—competing.


----------



## limbwalker

It was once thought that early 30's was prime time for PGA tour pros. Then came along a bunch of 20-something hot shots who weren't afraid to lose and that has now changed the game. The same is happening in archery. There are so many parallels between golf and archery.

55 year olds can be competitive so long as their name is Butch Johnson. 

Otherwise, you'd better get it done by 40. 

I shot the best scores of my life at 42, but that's only because I started OR at 33. If I had been handed an OR at 12, I have no doubt I would have shot my best scores in my 20's to early 30's.


----------



## limbwalker

I finally saw Casey's match and I don't know about anyone else, but I got the feeling her bow was not right. Not right at all.


----------



## chrstphr

limbwalker said:


> I finally saw Casey's match and I don't know about anyone else, but I got the feeling her bow was not right. Not right at all.


to be honest, i didnt see the same form that she used when winning nationals over the past three years. Her form has changed some and it didnt seem to be for the better. It didnt seem to be as consistent.

Chris


----------



## limbwalker

chrstphr said:


> to be honest, i didnt see the same form that she used when winning nationals over the past three years. Her form has changed some and it didnt seem to be for the better. It didnt seem to be as consistent.
> 
> Chris


Maybe so. But I've shot and tuned a lot of bows ( I know you have too ) and something was off.


----------



## strud

Is there anywhere to get the wind data for each match?

It would be interesting to see either if the winner (for each match) was just more skillful at dealing with the wind or how much the higher arrow speed and weight (eg Nespoli) overcomes some of the randomness that you cannot offset for with skill....


----------



## iceman747

Reading between the lines, he might mean whoever knocks out the world number 1 ranked archer (not the archer who has the highest ranking round) in the OR wins the gold?


----------



## TER

I just love this picture so much. It says it all.


----------



## nakedape




----------



## DarkMuppet

TER said:


> View attachment 7441904
> 
> 
> I just love this picture so much. It says it all.


At the expense of Brady again (sorry) this similar







picture was from the 2017 Rome final. Woojin put in 88/90 to end the match quickly.

His face is like "what can I do...? “


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## limbwalker

While I enjoy seeing a smiling, happy young Gazoz on the line, I think the pictures at Brady's expense are in poor taste. We are better than that. He has done a tremendous amount for our sport and I think he deserves our respect. I think it could be argued he is responsible for the Korean men upping their game in recent years.


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## DarkMuppet

Absolutely, just pointing out that the photographer manages to capture the exact moment of the end of the match and the juxtaposition of both archer's mood at the very end.


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## lcaillo

You play on the big stage and you will be subject to the camera…

Gazoz is a great story and he performed with a joy that was missing from others. It was great to watch. 

The fact that the majority of the top seeds were eliminated and not in the final 8 does show that the system is not really about the best but who survived on a particular day. 

I think cutting to a smaller field and going to double elimination would make sense. There are too many rounds of matches to follow now. Cut to 32 or 16 after the 720, shoot another 720 and cut to 8 then double elim. You get great comeback stories with double elim tournaments and you don’t punish top seeds for either a weak moment or just bumping up against someone getting hot for a few ends. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## limbwalker

lcaillo said:


> You play on the big stage and you will be subject to the camera…
> 
> Gazoz is a great story and he performed with a joy that was missing from others. It was great to watch.
> 
> The fact that the majority of the top seeds were eliminated and not in the final 8 does show that the system is not really about the best but who survived on a particular day.
> 
> I think cutting to a smaller field and going to double elimination would make sense. There are too many rounds of matches to follow now. Cut to 32 or 16 after the 720, shoot another 720 and cut to 8 then double elim. You get great comeback stories with double elim tournaments and you don’t punish top seeds for either a weak moment or just bumping up against someone getting hot for a few ends.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Years ago, I suggested a format where the field was cut in half every so many arrows until the final 8 or 4.

I'd be in huge support of a format that started with 64, then cut the field to the top 32, then the top 16, then the top 8, and then ran double elim matchplay after that. 

Is this not essentially what the "heats" are in track and field?

This wouldn't be unprecedented in the Olympic archery contest. I believe that's similar to how medals were awarded prior to 1992, or something along those lines, but without the head to head matchplay.


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## Stash

You’re almost describing the Grand FITA.

I agree. Archery isn’t a “combat” or one-on-one sport, it’s everyone against the field.

But I don’t care for the double elimination. I feel that’s more for the local tournament level for archers who want more play time rather than having to deal with “you lost, go home”.


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## Vittorio

limbwalker said:


> Years ago, I suggested a format where the field was cut in half every so many arrows until the final 8 or 4.
> 
> I'd be in huge support of a format that started with 64, then cut the field to the top 32, then the top 16, then the top 8, and then ran double elim matchplay after that.
> 
> Is this not essentially what the "heats" are in track and field?


This tournament exists and is the tournament of the Cockerel, my club organizes it since more than 40 years already ...
CAM - COMPAGNIA ARCIERI MONICA - TOURNAMENT OF THE COCKEREL


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## limbwalker

Stash said:


> You’re almost describing the Grand FITA.


Right. The Grand FITA up to a point, then double elim match play beyond that. Best of both worlds IMO.


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## Stash

Right. Make the rule book twice as thick, and confuse the hell out of the tournament organizers, the officials AND the archers. 😄

OR, win a few Olympic medals, and all of a sudden the current system is pretty much perfect the way it is.


----------



## limbwalker

Not sure you're giving the organizers and officials much credit. What I'm proposing wouldn't involve anything we don't already have in place. 

72 arrow ranking. Then the next day, two ends to cut to 32, two ends to cut to 16, two ends to cut to 8 and then double elim bracket from there. The Olympics could still get their final 8 match play and we'd know we were dealing with the 8 best archers in that field. 

Just a suggestion.

We ran double elim match play at the TSAA state outdoor and state JOAD Outdoor event, and it wasn't that hard to run and everyone loved it. My primary reason for doing it was to give archers more matchplay experience than they were getting at that time. We had young archers who found themselves in head to head matches and would lose, and that was the only experience they had for a full year. That's no way to prepare JOAD archers IMO so double-elim gave them at least 2x the matchplay opportunity and it produced some very exciting matches where two archers had to shoot against one another three times in a row.


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## Stash

Think of the logistics of cutting the field in half after 2 ends. You’ll have dozens of ties to break.

And as for double eliminations, that’s what I said - they’re great for kids and relative beginners. Leave them for local events and let the big boys and girls deal with their successes and failures. I think we don’t need to hear the word “repechage” in our sport. 😄


----------



## limbwalker

Stash said:


> Think of the logistics of cutting the field in half after 2 ends. You’ll have dozens of ties to break.
> 
> And as for double eliminations, that’s what I said - they’re great for kids and relative beginners. Leave them for local events and let the big boys and girls deal with their successes and failures. I think we don’t need to hear the word “repechage” in our sport. 😄


So how did they manage that with the grand fita?

Also, tell US basketball or baseball or softball, etc. they are out after one loss.


----------



## Stash

Grand FITA was first cut after a full round, cut to 24, then cuts after 36 arrows, not only 12 arrows. Cuts to 18 archers, then 12, then 8 (why 8 and not 6, I don’t know). Not many full ties (using score, 10s and 9s).

At the ‘87 WC I was on the same butt with a Soviet archer who was 25th. Boy, was he PISSED. 😄

Team sports usually have a round-robin, so the first rounds are usually 3 games or more, so they can lose a game or even two and still move on. So everyone has a fair chance to play at least a bit. Archers get a full day of shooting, plus at least one match. Not like the fighting sports - one loss and bye-bye.


----------



## lameduck

AR720 said:


> Lol wat?
> 
> View attachment 7441428
> 
> 
> View attachment 7441429
> 
> 
> View attachment 7441430


You don't know Ellison and Kumari are the #1 ranked in their respective categories?


----------



## lameduck

nakedape said:


> huh? Unruh knocked out Kim JD (#1)
> 
> ur talking about the quarters?


I was referring to Ellison and Kumari.


----------



## Stash

Yeah, well your original post wasn’t all that clear.


lameduck said:


> Did you all notice the new trend? Whoever knocks out the number 1 ranked in the elimination becomes the Gold medal winner?


You should have said ‘Whoever knocks out the WORLD number 1 ranked...”.


----------



## >--gt-->

With the circumstances of the past 18 months, and the “point decay” factor of world rankings, the 2021 world rankings are as close to meaningless as a valid statistic as they can be.


----------



## lksseven

Brady 2021 was not as sharp as Brady 2019/2020 When he was Godzilla), that's for sure. I'm sure some other Olympians suffered the same 'Covid screwed up my "peak"'. Bummer.


----------



## limbwalker

lksseven said:


> Brady 2021 was not as sharp as Brady 2019/2020 When he was Godzilla), that's for sure. I'm sure some other Olympians suffered the same 'Covid screwed up my "peak"'. Bummer.


And I'm sure an equal number benefitted. There was a medalist last night who flat out said if it had not been for Covid, she would not have been ready. Jennifer Mucino clearly benefitted. Without her, do our women rank ahead of our men? I'm not sure they do.

It has been an interesting cycle alright. I for one am glad the next Olympics are only 3 years away instead of four.


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## nakedape

jlocke said:


> So you guys are saying that there is no age decline in archery performance? That it’s really obligations and distractions that prevent us from seeing a 55 year-old on the elite line?


just click on their names to see their age, 
only Furukawa 36, and Oh, 39

it's all downhill after 35









Tokyo 2020 Men's Individual Results - Olympic archery


Find out who took home gold, silver and bronze in 2020. Official results of the archery Men's Individual event at the Tokyo Summer Olympics.




olympics.com


----------



## lameduck

lksseven said:


> Brady 2021 was not as sharp as Brady 2019/2020 When he was Godzilla), that's for sure. I'm sure some other Olympians suffered the same 'Covid screwed up my "peak"'. Bummer.


The pandemic made it a more leveled playing field. Back in normal days, many athletes had the luxury of spending 24/7 on their sports discipline. They didn't have lives to live except for the sports they're engaged in.

Now, you hear of poor countries winning their very first Olympic gold...Because suddenly, everybody have limited time to train.


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## jlocke

Just being on that list seems to exude a certain and definite youthful aura! I think it’s awesome and I hope to see the average age climb. It’s a great sport. Though many sports claim the title, archery is probably a truly lifetime sport.



nakedape said:


> just click on their names to see their age,
> only Furukawa 36, and Oh, 39
> 
> it's all downhill after 35
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tokyo 2020 Men's Individual Results - Olympic archery
> 
> 
> Find out who took home gold, silver and bronze in 2020. Official results of the archery Men's Individual event at the Tokyo Summer Olympics.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> olympics.com


----------



## nakedape

jlocke said:


> Just being on that list seems to exude a certain and definite youthful aura! I think it’s awesome and I hope to see the average age climb. It’s a great sport. Though many sports claim the title, archery is probably a truly lifetime sport.


Well, lifetime sport is a different topic than peak age performance. 

I would say the average Olympic archer's age has dropped over the years and I wouldn't expect it to climb in the future.

There are many athletes that are pushing past the age expectation for retirement in their sport, but they are definitely not competitive.

Tony Hawk and Anderson Silva comes to mind.


----------



## nakedape

View count total as of now.
I would say those are decent numbers
On the other hand, the TV ratings are way down...


----------



## jlocke

nakedape said:


> Well, lifetime sport is a different topic than peak age performance.
> 
> I would say the average Olympic archer's age has dropped over the years and I wouldn't expect it to climb in the future.
> 
> There are many athletes that are pushing past the age expectation for retirement in their sport, but they are definitely not competitive.
> 
> Tony Hawk and Anderson Silva comes to mind.


I agree. The access to information and world class coaching is available earlier in moldable youth as is the ability to discover and develop high-potential competitors at earlier ages. So I would certainly place my bets (if I were a gambler) on the younger in general.

On the other hand, wouldn’t it be interesting to look for what (and there are likely several things) could make one competitive after forty? We pour a lot of research into longevity and quality of life so maybe that’s a missing component. It cannot be dismissed simply as “he’s too old.” Why is his age dulling performance and how can it be extended or captured?


----------



## Vittorio

Olympic Games are over, and Cadet and Juniors from Europe are competing this week in Rumania in the second leg of the European Youth Cup, and all of them will also compete next week in the World Youth Championships in Poland.
3 notes:

All top present European archers and all medaled in Tokyo have a long past in competing in the European Youth cup circuit
In the old days, USA sent Junior and Cadet teams several times to compete in Europe in that circuit. No more since ages
Korea is not sending a team to Poland, after many editions of Youth World Championships where they have been as usual the favorite country





__





2021 European Youth Cup 2nd leg – Bucharest






info.ianseo.net


----------



## nakedape

jlocke said:


> On the other hand, wouldn’t it be interesting to look for what (and there are likely several things) could make one competitive after forty? We pour a lot of research into longevity and quality of life so maybe that’s a missing component. It cannot be dismissed simply as “he’s too old.” Why is his age dulling performance and how can it be extended or captured?


there are definitely pharmaceuticals for slowing the decline.

TRT comes to mind. UFC fighters were doing that before they made a rule against it. (Joe Rogan is always saying how great it is)

Not sure about Adderall for aging folks, maybe...


----------



## nakedape

Italian Olympic Archer Lucilla Boari Comes Out After Winning Bronze


A surprise video message from her girlfriend at a press conference led Boari to come out publicly.




www.advocate.com


----------



## Z3R0

That's a cute story. I'm not sure why it matters who Lucilla dates, though.

Sent from my SM-G970U1 using Tapatalk


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## nakedape

Z3R0 said:


> That's a cute story. I'm not sure why it matters who Lucilla dates, though.


u might not care, but maybe there are lesbian archers out there who do.

I do agree that Olympic athletes should not be using their limelight at the Olympics for promoting any social justice or political agenda.
but many do









IOC giving athletes slightly more leeway to express views on political, social justice


Under new International Olympic Committee guidance, athletes will be able to express views on the field of play before competition at the Tokyo Games.



www.usatoday.com


----------



## limbwalker

nakedape said:


> u might not care, but maybe there are lesbian archers out there who do.
> 
> I do agree that Olympic athletes should not be using their limelight at the Olympics for promoting any social justice or political agenda.
> but many do
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> IOC giving athletes slightly more leeway to express views on political, social justice
> 
> 
> Under new International Olympic Committee guidance, athletes will be able to express views on the field of play before competition at the Tokyo Games.
> 
> 
> 
> www.usatoday.com


Olympians have earned the spotlight they get unlike internet trolls.


----------



## nakedape

turn on CC auto translate

An San and Oh, post olympic interviews


----------



## nakedape

Chang Hye Jin








‎장혜진。٩( ᐛ )و‎ (@s2.jin____e) • Instagram photos and videos


26K Followers, 767 Following, 287 Posts - See Instagram photos and videos from ‎장혜진。٩( ᐛ )و‎ (@s2.jin____e)




www.instagram.com





An San








산이 (@ssaaaann__22) • Instagram photos and videos


360K Followers, 241 Following, 32 Posts - See Instagram photos and videos from 산이 (@ssaaaann__22)




www.instagram.com





Kim JD




__





김제덕 (@kim_je_deok_0412) • Instagram photos and videos







www.instagram.com


----------



## Sophler

Access to world-class information and coaching is available earlier in emerging youth, as is the ability to spot and develop high-potential competitors earlier. So I would certainly bet 12Bet (if I were a player) on junior in general because younger players are much faster and more promising. They have a purpose that older players don't have. A young player always strives to achieve something better than what he has. I don't know about others, but I know that from my own experience. I used to be that goal-oriented too.


----------



## woof156

nakedape said:


> There are many athletes that are pushing past the age expectation for retirement in their sport, but they are definitely not competitive.


Tom Brady


----------



## styks n stryngs

woof156 said:


> Tom Brady


Ben Rothlisberger 😂😂


----------



## Bob Furman

Santa

Sent from my SM-N975U1 using Tapatalk


----------

