# Metric Micrometer for Arrow shaft and arrow point diameter measurement



## I BOW 2 (May 22, 2002)

Not if you know how to use math!!!! .03937" per 1MM Ken


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## Davik (Apr 16, 2003)

Ours already us a set of rings for this...


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## Serious Fun (May 12, 2003)

I BOW 2 said:


> Not if you know how to use math!!!! .03937" per 1MM Ken


 By using metric devices you take out any doubt an acher might have regarding the tolerance or accuracy of a metric to english conversion.


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## Serious Fun (May 12, 2003)

Davik said:


> Ours already us a set of rings for this...


Are you refering to the guages with slots for shaft diameter and hole for the point diameter? Judges have been warned in the FITA Judges Newsletters that the guages should be checked for accuracy. The USAA Judge program was fortunate to have a donor offer to supply metric mircormeters to USAA judges that experessed an interest and a need for them. I had mine and didnt get ask for one. Did anyone else get one?


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## Greg Bouras (Nov 17, 2006)

I BOW 2 said:


> Not if you know how to use math!!!! .03937" per 1MM Ken


Hate to be a jerk but since we are in the fifth decimal place length dimension in SI units of millimeter is abreviated mm.


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## I BOW 2 (May 22, 2002)

Greg Bouras said:


> Hate to be a jerk but since we are in the fifth decimal place length dimension in SI units of millimeter is abreviated mm.


Greg, if you feel the need to be a jerk as you say, then by all means! :flame: Ken


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## engtee (Oct 2, 2003)

Bob,
I never heard about that gauge. I would like one, considering I am using the old Cavalier dual purpose gauge that is too small for the 9.4mm points. Who has them?


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## Serious Fun (May 12, 2003)

engtee said:


> Bob,
> I never heard about that gauge. I would like one, considering I am using the old Cavalier dual purpose gauge that is too small for the 9.4mm points. Who has them?


Gauges, To clarify:
The gauge I have to measure arrow shafts and points is a set of micrometers that I purchased from one of the many online tool suppliers. Here is an example http://www.amazon.com/Micrometer-Ca...3?ie=UTF8&s=home-garden&qid=1263394963&sr=8-3 Mine has a lock so I keep them at 9.3 and 9.4 mm and mark them as such for easy reference.
The gauge that is suspect are the ones that are cast or stamped or machined from a piece of metal or plastic or similar material.
The gauge that was offered to USAA judges a while ago that would use them actively were provided by a “sponsor” and distributed by Tom Green. I believe they were metric micrometers. I assume that the sponsored micrometers have been dispersed, so I don’t know if there are any more. I have not seen one of them in person as I have always used mine.


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## Beastmaster (Jan 20, 2009)

So, for clarification purposes...

If the arrow is marked as a 2315 or a 9.3mm diameter, the arrow still has to be measured?

I'm specifically picking on the Easton 2315 and the Beman 9.3 arrows.

Thanks,
Steve


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## Serious Fun (May 12, 2003)

Beastmaster said:


> So, for clarification purposes...
> 
> If the arrow is marked as a 2315 or a 9.3mm diameter, the arrow still has to be measured?
> 
> ...


A couple of answers: Per the FITA Judge Guidebook
http://www.archery.org/UserFiles/Do...lications/02_Downloads/Judges_Guidebook-e.pdf
Page 25: “The rules however do not specifically require that the archer has to show all the items he/she might be using, but it is his/her responsibility to use legal equipment.”
Page 36: “If a piece of illegal equipment is found or an illegal use of equipment is discovered during such ongoing checking, the Judge must immediately take action in order to avoid someone taking advantage over other archers in an unfair way.”

Equipment inspection is a courtesy to the archers and competition. It helps the tournament achieve the goal of conducting a safe, fair, efficient and effective event. I encourage judges to always be looking to achieve these goals and to help the archers do the same. Part of the effort is to give the archers a sense of comfort that all is well. By conducting equipment inspection is such a way that the archers have confidence that their equipment is okay is helpful and supportive. Do 2315 arrows need to be measured with a micrometer every time to be approved to compete? No. Is it helpful to show the archers that their equipment compliant, and perhaps help educate should they make equipment decisions in the future? Yes.

I have noticed a couple of things as a judge. One is that Judges should use “judgement” and apply the intent of the rules and not simply apply written rules text. Second, coaches need to stay current with the rules so they can better train and prepare the archer. Archers should also learn the rules that apply to them.


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## Greg Bouras (Nov 17, 2006)

I BOW 2 said:


> Greg, if you feel the need to be a jerk as you say, then by all means! :flame: Ken



I have been assured that I do have redeeming qualities; however no specifics were given.


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## Beastmaster (Jan 20, 2009)

Serious Fun said:


> A couple of answers: Per the FITA Judge Guidebook
> http://www.archery.org/UserFiles/Do...lications/02_Downloads/Judges_Guidebook-e.pdf
> Page 25: “The rules however do not specifically require that the archer has to show all the items he/she might be using, but it is his/her responsibility to use legal equipment.”
> Page 36: “If a piece of illegal equipment is found or an illegal use of equipment is discovered during such ongoing checking, the Judge must immediately take action in order to avoid someone taking advantage over other archers in an unfair way.”
> ...


Makes sense.

One oddball comment. If the aforementioned test rings are out of spec, then a 2317 arrow could be used and passed. 

Because of that, I'd personally prefer a micrometer or caliper that's either metric only or digital inch/mm convertible to use. 

I do have one minor caution to throw out. There are some cheaper thickness gauges out there that are only accurate to 0.1mm. That's the difference between the thickness of the maximum arrow diameter and the maximum point diameter. If someone's going to spend the money, it's best if they spend the money on something good.

-Steve


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## ebonarcher (Mar 2, 2008)

Actually you do not need a metric anything to check. You could just get a gauge made to allow the right size togo in and the too big size to not pass through. a go/no-go gague is all you need.


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## Beastmaster (Jan 20, 2009)

ebonarcher said:


> Actually you do not need a metric anything to check. You could just get a gauge made to allow the right size togo in and the too big size to not pass through. a go/no-go gague is all you need.


True to a certain extent. Bringing the other shooting sport back into play, go/no-go/field headspace gauges have worn on me before, specifically in the rim of the headspace gauge where the extractor will gouge the gauge's rim.... 

I see no reason why the same thing wouldn't occur with an archery arrow gauge, especially since most points are steel. One would have to be cautious as to wear around the gauge.

-Steve


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## rambo-yambo (Aug 12, 2008)

I am an engineer by trade and work in medical field, so I see similar problem at work all the time. Straightly speaking, a "go"/"no go" gauge is only good if it can be checked by a calibrated instrument periodically. A gauge can wear out causing it to be oversized or a nick can cause a gauge to be undersized. Even a calibrated caliper or micrometer still need to be calibrated every so often to be certified as a calibrated measuring device. 

Unless we are going to stick by the rule and have everything calibrated, we should use commonsense. Do you really think 0.1mm (apprx. .004") would make that much of a difference? Can you really tell a 0.1mm difference on a paper target? Just my 2 cents.


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## Davik (Apr 16, 2003)

Not to split hairs, but really...what difference does it make? we're not talking the difference here between a 2315 and a 2712, we're talking about .01mm...I mean, really it shouldn't make any difference.


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## Beastmaster (Jan 20, 2009)

rambo-yambo said:


> I am an engineer by trade and work in medical field, so I see similar problem at work all the time. Straightly speaking, a "go"/"no go" gauge is only good if it can be checked by a calibrated instrument periodically. A gauge can wear out causing it to be oversized or a nick can cause a gauge to be undersized. Even a calibrated caliper or micrometer still need to be calibrated every so often to be certified as a calibrated measuring device.
> 
> Unless we are going to stick by the rule and have everything calibrated, we should use commonsense. Do you really think 0.1mm (apprx. .004") would make that much of a difference? Can you really tell a 0.1mm difference on a paper target? Just my 2 cents.


I think this is where Bob's getting into here. It's hopeful that he judge will use common sense. 

If you have one kid coming in with 2317's, he/she is going to have to get replacement arrows. A kid coming in with 2315's should be given a cursory checkover.

With regards to the 0.1mm difference, I'll tell a funny story about a tournament where that level of difference forced a second shootoff.

At the 2009 Arizona Iron Archer tournament, the final Gold Flight round robin set occurred between Dave Miller (a well known local shooter) and Eric Bennett (a 2008 US Paraolympic team compound shooter who also lives in Arizona).

In set play, Dave and Eric tied. So - they went to a sudden death shootoff.

New faces were put up, and they proceeded to shoot their single arrow.

Eric and Dave literally shot the exact same place on their respective targets. The difference was so minimal that the digital calipers used by Bob showed a measurement that was within the error rate of the caliper.

A second set of faces were pinned up, a second shootoff occurred, and Eric won the second shootoff handily.

So - accurate instrumentation is a nice thing to have. Not that we minded the drama...it was actually fun to watch that happen!

With regards to visual acuity going down to 0.1mm, I know that some artists' pens can go down to 0.1mm and beyond- my sister in law (a graphics artist by trade who does some traditional media work for hire) has a set of Itoya pens that go down to 0.1mm, and a set of Copic pens that go down to 0.03mm.

I figure that if pens go down that far, the measuring tools should go beyond it.

-Steve


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## Beastmaster (Jan 20, 2009)

Davik said:


> Not to split hairs, but really...what difference does it make? we're not talking the difference here between a 2315 and a 2712, we're talking about .01mm...I mean, really it shouldn't make any difference.


Okay....here's where that .01mm can be negative.

Let's say the go/no go gauge is .01mm smaller.

You stick a 9.3mm diameter arrow in, and it doesn't fit.

It's marked as a 9.3mm diameter arrow. But the gauge says otherwise.

Who's right? Beman/Easton? Or the gauge.

Again, we're hoping the judge uses common sense in scenarios like this. 

-Steve


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## I BOW 2 (May 22, 2002)

You guys must keep in mind that unless you have a certified calibration guarantee on your Mic for that moment in time it don't mean it's accurate either. Ken


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## ebonarcher (Mar 2, 2008)

Hmmm i'm not sure how a go-nogauge is going to get smaller.
I am thinking we are talking about arrow diameter.
If arrow can go through the hole it is smaller than the max... if the arrow doesnt it's too big. That's where I was thinking of using such. If not i'm just confused.


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## Serious Fun (May 12, 2003)

Beastmaster said:


> ...Eric and Dave literally shot the exact same place on their respective targets. The difference was so minimal that the digital calipers used by Bob showed a measurement that was within the error rate of the caliper....Steve


I might add the error rate was beyond the tolerance of the “measurer”. The target face is puckered and sort of loose and floppy as the target butt is uneven having been shot at all day. The arrows are at an angle, like arrow sometimes are so measuring where the X is and where the shaft of the arrow breaks the plane target face becomes in question. The calipers are sort of floated above the target and opps, the X is lightly touched and the X moves or the arrow is bumped and is it where it was before? I know the engineers out there think go/no go. But I suggest experience offers a different outcome. 

Let’s talk consistency. How many times do we see that NBA officials become part of the story. So and so, calls a charge one way while another official calls differently enough to be noticeable. Officials should not be the story and take away from the athlete performance. Judges should strive to be consistent across the board. Just because someone can measure to ultra fine tolerance doesn’t mean they should. What is better is for the judges in general all measure and call consistently so whomever calls an arrow, the outcome is the same.


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## Beastmaster (Jan 20, 2009)

ebonarcher said:


> Hmmm i'm not sure how a go-nogauge is going to get smaller.
> I am thinking we are talking about arrow diameter.
> If arrow can go through the hole it is smaller than the max... if the arrow doesnt it's too big. That's where I was thinking of using such. If not i'm just confused.


Go-No Go gauges wear. So you can get a situation where a too big of an arrow can fit. 

And if its made wrong (smaller) from the get go, an arrow that is properly sized won't fit. 

-Steve
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## pencarrow (Oct 3, 2003)

Sooooo, what are you saying a Judge should do, Measure or not? I know what the rules say. Is it a matter of questioning the arrow shaft/point diameter, or the accuracy of the Judge's measuring devise. The spirit of the rule is, no one have an advantage using illegal (by the rule) equipment. As a Judge , if it looked odd I would ask to measure and watch the Archers reaction ( you know, " me thinks thee protesteth to much"). Measure, if OK,OK, if to big, advise the Archer he/she needs to change arrows, make a note of the Archers back number or name, advise the COJ and suggest that another Judge do a spot check later.
As a suggestion, FITA/USAA needs to either provide or make available "standard" measuring tools for arrow shafts & points and bare-bow .

Rant over.

Fritz


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## Beastmaster (Jan 20, 2009)

From my point of view as an instructor, I tell the kids the following:

a) Know the rules. If the rules say that you can't use anything bigger than a 2315 or a 9.3mm arrow, than that's what you have to go by.

b) Buy stuff that is within the rules.

c) Trust that the judges will do the right thing. It's just like that discussion involving wraps that make the arrow diameter over 9.3mm. The wrap isn't what's cutting the paper, it's the arrow and the point.

From my point of view as a shooter:

1) Know the rules.

2) Buy stuff that's within the rules.

3) Know the equipment that is used at equipment check in, and see how the stuff works to ensure that your bow/arrows are within spec for *that* particular tournament.

For #3, I'll use myself as an example. I know that the bow scale that is used at Arizona State Archery Association events is 2 pounds heavier than the scale that's used at the shop I teach for. My bow is set to 56 pounds knowing that the bow will weigh out at a DW of 58 pounds at the event.

We (as shooters/coaches/instructors) have to trust the judges in that they will interpret the rules with a modicum of common sense. 

-Steve


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## Serious Fun (May 12, 2003)

pencarrow said:


> Sooooo, what are you saying a Judge should do, Measure or not? I know what the rules say. Is it a matter of questioning the arrow shaft/point diameter, or the accuracy of the Judge's measuring devise. The spirit of the rule is, no one have an advantage using illegal (by the rule) equipment. As a Judge , if it looked odd I would ask to measure and watch the Archers reaction ( you know, " me thinks thee protesteth to much"). Measure, if OK,OK, if to big, advise the Archer he/she needs to change arrows, make a note of the Archers back number or name, advise the COJ and suggest that another Judge do a spot check later.
> As a suggestion, FITA/USAA needs to either provide or make available "standard" measuring tools for arrow shafts & points and bare-bow .
> 
> Rant over.
> ...


I just bought couple a metric micrometers and set one at 9.3 and one at 9.4. For barebow, the super easy thing to do is cut out the 12.2cm ring from a 122 cm target face.
If arrows are to big, they cannot compete for a world record at a Star FITA. The intent of the rules should not be ignored or the intent of the rules to provide a fair, effective, efficience and safe competition is lost.


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## Serious Fun (May 12, 2003)

Beastmaster said:


> c) ...Trust that the judges will do the right thing...-Steve


I dont think I would cross my fingers and hope for the best. The proactive thing to do is to educate. The FITA Judges news letters typically have a case study or two every issue. The next issue, the case study is answered. By looking at just case studies, one can learn a lot. Judges seminars can easily teach the basics in a morning and then go over case studies for the remainder of the seminar. I find just talking about case studies to be very helpful. Situations can be considered before they really happen. I would like to see more participation in judges seminars. I understand that Yankton is hosting a Judges seminar in March. I think Newberry will be hosting something if I understand correctly.

Judging isnt for everyone. But knowing the rules is essential for coaches, archers, program managers, tournament directors, media. Rules are the framework and structure of competition. Without them we are just pretending to have fun.


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## TomB (Jan 28, 2003)

Serious Fun said:


> I just bought couple a metric micrometers and set one at 9.3 and one at 9.4. For barebow, the super easy thing to do is cut out the 12.2cm ring from a 122 cm target face.
> If arrows are to big, they cannot compete for a world record at a Star FITA. The intent of the rules should not be ignored or the intent of the rules to provide a fair, effective, efficience and safe competition is lost.


Bob, there is a nuance here that many people forget. I love it that you said if there arrows are too big they can't compete for a world record. This reminds me when we had a local tournament and an NFAA guy shows up with his tent poles to shoot. The arrows were too big per FITA rules. But, we didn't tell him he couldn't shoot. We told him he was more than welcome to shoot as a quest. Next time he had a set of FITA legal arrows. Same thing happens when a kid shows up with his hunting bow and has multiple pins. He is obviously not shooting for a world record and multiple pins are no benefit to him in a marked distance format like an outdoor FITA or indoor FITA. But, the rules say only one sight pin. I saw let him play rather than make him mess up his hunting bow. I do ask folks to back down their hunting rigs to less than 60 lb for safety reasons. 

Bob demonstrates the correct philosophy of inclusion rather than exclusion. Bob seems to ask himself on issues such as this, is there any way I can accommodate this individual while still keeping the competition fair. I like that in a judge.


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