# The holding low subject...



## aread (Dec 25, 2009)

I've conquered it, but when I did it, it wasn't a low hold, it was drifting down. I'd start on the X, then slowly drift. Then to execute, I'd bounce it a little and punch at the top of the bounce. 

Results about as you would expect. 

I controlled it by learning that back tension is not just the way to execute, but the way to hold too. I also got a longer bow that fits me & I don't have to tilt my head forward to touch my nose to the string.

It seems that we are hearing about more and more archers holding low or can't keep the pin or target. I think one of the reasons we hear about the low hold and archers who can't keep the pin on the X is partly due to the popularity of short bows. Either the archer has to raise his anchor or tilt his head. There are guys who can shoot the short bows well, but they are overcoming the shortcomings of the bow. I've found that it works a lot better for me to have a bow that contributes to good form, not the other way around.

JMHO,
Allen


----------



## Hoyt_em (Feb 18, 2007)

That is interesting logic on the short ATA...makes some sense too. 

I see numerous people "ducking" to get into the peep, searching for the nose to string contact.


----------



## Bees (Jan 28, 2003)

I have to have my shoulders level, and my weight centered
my head is up nose not on string, right now my string doesn't touch my face at all. 
plus I have to have my anchor point in the correct location on my face.
If I have my touch point to high on my face, I lose my leverage on the bow and the sight drops.
the difference in location on the touch point is very small. I call it doing my move... 
I don't even know if I physically move the touch point or just leverage the release aid down.
I think my release elbow lowers on my move
What ever I do the sight comes up to where I want it. 
Currently I come to anchor about half the time and I get it correct, the other half of the time I miss it high (always high) I never miss it low. I can correct by doing my move and watch the sight come up. Or I can let down and do over.

Other fixes I have tried.
miss adjust sight so the arrow hits high. 
tried to fix it with a lot of back weight( worked but the bow got to heavy for me)

A slight shift of my hips forward, toward the target brings up my sight 
sometimes I do this in conjunction with my move.


----------



## Ned250 (Aug 10, 2009)

My ring would drift down like Allen's.... it'd finally settle around 7:00 in no man's land between the 5 and X ring. I too would rebound up like a ball bouncing off the wall. I wouldn't punch it on rebound, but the release would fire somewhere between the drift down and the rebound up. Or any combination of the 2. It was maddening to say the least. It's a minor miracle I never developed a punch routine with the hinge.

A combination of _secret sauce_ and a longer DLoop has me holding on the X.


----------



## Hoyt_em (Feb 18, 2007)

Bees said:


> I have to have my shoulders level, and my weight centered
> my head is up nose not on string, right now my string doesn't touch my face at all.
> plus I have to have my anchor point in the correct location on my face.
> If I have my touch point to high on my face, I lose my leverage on the bow and the sight drops.
> ...


How low does the reticle sit with improper execution, on your part?


----------



## Hoyt_em (Feb 18, 2007)

I have not aggressively tried to address this situation. I make attempts when I see something that makes sense.

The GRIV commentary posted a few days ago (YouTube "truball seminar part 5") makes a mountain of logical sense...but, didn't work (at least not in an measurable visual amount). I did however steal a different position for the back shoulder. I'll play with to a farther extent after l'ville


----------



## cbrunson (Oct 25, 2010)

I went through it and mine was more the target panic variety. I could hold solid about an inch and a half low at twenty. It would not move up without that bump previously mentioned that would often end up blowing out the top. I beat it by a couple of practices of no shooting. Draw and hold, then let down. I had to learn to hold the dot in the center without the anticipation of the shot going off. Kinda learning to aim. Worked for me.


----------



## Bees (Jan 28, 2003)

Hoyt_em said:


> How low does the reticle sit with improper execution, on your part?


when I had the high back shoulder or if I let my release elbow get to high, It sits between the ten ring and the red.
really aggravates me that it sits low because I am so solid in that position. 

after I leveled my shoulders and lowered my release elbow, 
it cam up to the bottom of the ten ring.
I make my move to get it into the ten ring.


----------



## Hoyt_em (Feb 18, 2007)

Ned250 said:


> My ring would drift down like Allen's.... it'd finally settle around 7:00 in no man's land between the 5 and X ring. I too would rebound up like a ball bouncing off the wall. I wouldn't punch it on rebound, but the release would fire somewhere between the drift down and the rebound up. Or any combination of the 2. It was maddening to say the least. It's a minor miracle I never developed a punch routine with the hinge.
> 
> A combination of _secret sauce_ and a longer DLoop has me holding on the X.


Maybe my brain is warped...lol. I do not find the low hold maddening. A bit troublesome at times...


----------



## Ned250 (Aug 10, 2009)

Hoyt_em said:


> Maybe my brain is warped...lol. I do not find the low hold maddening. A bit troublesome at times...


LOL Trust me, I'm probably the warped one.


----------



## hrtlnd164 (Mar 22, 2008)

JMO but everyone is wired different. For me, if I have a pin or smaller dot on my lens it just wants to set just under what I aim at. No dropping out the bottom, just floats there while I execute the shot and it has never been an issue. I have tried a circle for spot shooting and have no problem centering the X, but the circle just does not seem to be as relaxing of a sight picture. To me some people just NEED to see what they are aiming at and nothing more. For some it is not an issue, for others they try to bounce it in the middle while executing, that's where the issue starts.


----------



## tmorelli (Jul 31, 2005)

Hrtlnd164 hit it. 

If I shoot a pin, I like to see the x. It sits right on the 6 o'clock line of the x/10. 

If I shoot a ring....I don't like it but it centers. 

So... I shoot a dot. I size it to get a halo of yellow or white. It covers those magnetic arrow holes and centers easily. This is the most relaxed aim for me. If the dot gets small.... I get lazy and will allow it to float too much...or try to over-aim/hold it. 

Maybe I'm warped too


----------



## johncraddock445 (Aug 7, 2012)

Tag


----------



## AJ the TP Guru (Jul 29, 2011)

I do agree - holding low seems to be a ubiquitous defect within archers of all stripes.

There are different reasons for it, but in the end the reason really doesn't matter. If you're holding low, you simply cannot be consistent at varying distances over time. One day you may be dead-on, but not so much the next day.

Once you've convinced your subconscious to allow you to hold on the spot, then you can truly concentrate on form and technique, but not before then. The process is what I call a _harmonizing _of the minds, and there are multiple ways to accomplish it, but do it you must or your archery life will be overly frustrating.


----------



## TNMAN (Oct 6, 2009)

AJ the TP Guru said:


> I do agree - holding low seems to be a ubiquitous defect within archers of all stripes.
> 
> There are different reasons for it, but in the end the reason really doesn't matter. If you're holding low, you simply cannot be consistent at varying distances over time. One day you may be dead-on, but not so much the next day.
> 
> Once you've convinced your subconscious to allow you to hold on the spot, then you can truly concentrate on form and technique, but not before then. *The process is what I call a harmonizing of the minds, and there are multiple ways to accomplish it*, but do it you must or your archery life will be overly frustrating.


But you didn't say how. Can you elaborate how? ---or at least give us the cliff notes, HOW TO STOP HOLDING LOW?


----------



## Bees (Jan 28, 2003)

After watching the dot holds low in the videos, 
guess I'll be checking my peep height this weekend sometime.


----------



## reylamb (Feb 5, 2003)

TNMAN said:


> But you didn't say how. Can you elaborate how? ---or at least give us the cliff notes, HOW TO STOP HOLDING LOW?


Send him money and he will give you his secret sauce!!!!!

I personally feel too many folks are diagnosed with TP when they hold low, when most folks just have either a form flaw or some type of equipment issue......not to say TP isn't real, I just think it is way too over diagnosed.

For me it is more of a lollipop, because I shoot an up pin. I know when it happens it is because of an elevated release shoulder.


----------



## Don Schultz (Jul 5, 2002)

I like to hold low with arrow impact just above the pin dot. If I cover the X with the pin, I can't tell where the X is any more. What if it's gone? Seeing the X lowers stress.


----------



## Hoyt_em (Feb 18, 2007)

AJ the TP Guru said:


> I do agree - holding low seems to be a ubiquitous defect within archers of all stripes.
> 
> There are different reasons for it, but in the end the reason really doesn't matter. If you're holding low, you simply cannot be consistent at varying distances over time. One day you may be dead-on, but not so much the next day.
> 
> Once you've convinced your subconscious to allow you to hold on the spot, then you can truly concentrate on form and technique, but not before then. The process is what I call a _harmonizing _of the minds, and there are multiple ways to accomplish it, but do it you must or your archery life will be overly frustrating.


I don't do this too often, but...

Thanks for all your offering, now...please take a hike.

Every single post you make on this site is a vague reference to the great abyss. You offered nothing to the conversation, except referencing target panic, that I'm sure we can buy the fix for. 

The negative wording you use to subliminally attempt to convince and help breed doubt in an archers mind is borderline masochistic.


----------



## AJ the TP Guru (Jul 29, 2011)

TNMAN - pm sent. I try to avoid much explanation of my method in the GD forum for the simple reason some folks are so simple they refuse to acknowledge the process as being as successful as it is. As a result, they tend to take a thread sideways which does no one good.


----------



## willy boy (Jan 28, 2013)

I tend to hold low myself but i think its a cause of me wanting to see the intended spot im aiming at.


----------



## tmorelli (Jul 31, 2005)

AJ the TP Guru said:


> ...in the GD forum....


I won't say I haven't called this place something similar. GD is a bit taboo though.

Cesspool seems appropriate.... and popular. :darkbeer:


----------



## mainehunt (Sep 11, 2006)

I held low for about 20 years while I used a wrist strap/index release. 

I now hold dead center with a BT release.


----------



## cbrunson (Oct 25, 2010)

If the secret sauce and equipment swap outs don't work, try practicing aiming without firing. It worked for me.

Not to detract from the other "expert" opinions, but it has never made sense to me that if you hold low on a high spot, and then hold low on a low spot, that it is equipment or form related. If you move the spot and still hold low, it is a brain issue. I agree the set up needs to fit correctly to be able to hold on the spot, but getting it there is between the ears.


----------



## aread (Dec 25, 2009)

Holding low isn't a mental problem. You don't have to "harmonize" your mind. 

You need good form and a bow that fits. The 8 to 10 possible culprits have been listed many times. 

It does help to know which one needs to be corrected. It's faster and easier to fix that one thing than the trial & error of adjusting everything. 

Allen


----------



## miko0618 (Mar 3, 2005)

I believe aiming off a target is easier for some people becuase it relieves some of the fear of missing. I dont think its because they want to see the target per say. They just dont want to see the pin on and off the target. Some setups are wrong and that can cause low holds. Typically the archer can feel whats wrong but for some stubborn reason will not change it. A pin that starts x and runs down, returns to x, runs down ect.. is most likely a draw length too long issue. However it could be stabilizer related.


----------



## AJ the TP Guru (Jul 29, 2011)

Diff'rent strokes for diff'rent folks..... come to think of it, I've even got a website page by that name.


----------



## ron w (Jan 5, 2013)

exactly,...
given that you have the right equipment and it fits you, and your form is decent, all external mechanical reasons that could possibly generate a low hold,... but obviously, very easily evaluated and corrected....there is nothing left, but to look inside your noggin for the culprit.
if you have "good days" and "bad days", what "external mechanism" would make you hold low one day and not another....there aren't any unless chnges were made to your equipment. 
you have a "mental process" that governs the "shot process". your shot process is very goal oriented, and when it has troubles, it will vulnerable to just the same thing as that which displays target panic. your mental process will attack the shot process at it's weakest element and stop the shot process from culminating at the release execution and the shot breaking. your mental process will instigate a low hold there in your shot process and suspend the shot process from reaching the release execution, because your mental process realizes that in order for the shot to culminate at the release execution, it has to keep the dot or pin over the X to be running correctly, and if it doesn't run correctly, it doesn't have to run the release execution.


----------



## cbrunson (Oct 25, 2010)

ron w said:


> exactly,...
> given that you have the right equipment and it fits you, and your form is decent, all external mechanical reasons that could possibly generate a low hold,... but obviously, very easily evaluated and corrected....there is nothing left, but to look inside your noggin for the culprit.
> if you have "good days" and "bad days", what "external mechanism" would make you hold low one day and not another....there aren't any unless chnges were made to your equipment.
> you have a "mental process" that governs the "shot process". your shot process is very goal oriented, and when it has troubles, it will vulnerable to just the same thing as that which displays target panic. your mental process will attack the shot process at it's weakest element and stop the shot process from culminating at the release execution and the shot breaking. your mental process will instigate a low hold there in your shot process and suspend the shot process from reaching the release execution, because your mental process realizes that in order for the shot to culminate at the release execution, it has to keep the dot or pin over the X to be running correctly, and if it doesn't run correctly, it doesn't have to run the release execution.


I agree with ron today. If you can hold the dot or pin perfectly still (or close), one inch below the X while you are looking at the X, but can’t move it up and cover it without it going crazy, the problem is mental.


----------



## ron w (Jan 5, 2013)

what the heck cbrunson.....you're not supposed to agree with me!...te, he, he!


----------



## brad91x (Jul 12, 2013)

I'm new to the target shooting world but I seem to get more x's when I hold just low enough to seen the x..but like I said I'm new and may need to break that habit that's why I'm here to learn.


----------



## cbrunson (Oct 25, 2010)

ron w said:


> what the heck cbrunson.....you're not supposed to agree with me!...te, he, he!


Haha. We form our opinions from our own experiences, right? The best we could hope for is by sharing them, someone else my have a light click on and say, "hey that's me". All worthy information.


----------



## cbrunson (Oct 25, 2010)

brad91x said:


> I'm new to the target shooting world but I seem to get more x's when I hold just low enough to seen the x..but like I said I'm new and may need to break that habit that's why I'm here to learn.


Very common issue. My opinion, yes you will shoot better in the long run if you fix it now.


----------



## ron w (Jan 5, 2013)

right on, man! we're all here to better the sport.


----------



## hrtlnd164 (Mar 22, 2008)

OK, since we have a sensible discussion going about the topic. How do you guys feel about the theory that your subconscious is constantly moving your pin off the dot so your mind can see it is still there. I have heard some very respected archers say this and agree. Some personalities will not set well with covering up the exact spot you want to hit. The subconscious effort to see that spot will result in more movement in your sight picture. Was listening to a podcast yesterday and Randy Ulmer touched on this a bit.


----------



## hooks (Mar 22, 2005)

Especially if you spent 20+ years aiming like this.


----------



## Varmintwade (Jun 17, 2012)

Sounds like a form of target panic to me. Start shooting at the middle of a very large target. Like a blank piece of cardboard 2' x 2' . To hit the middle of it you must look around the edges to see if you are properly centered in the middle of the intended target. By glancing around the edges to see if you are shooting at the middle takes your mind off of making a premature release. As you get the hang of this, start shooting as slightly smaller cardboard until you work back down to a very small piece for a target. This has help me.


----------



## Don Schultz (Jul 5, 2002)

hrtlnd164 said:


> ...How do you guys feel about the theory that your subconscious is constantly moving your pin off the dot so your mind can see it is still there...


Yup. Just what I tried to describe above. I know I am less conscious of it than I was 20 years ago, and on longer shots it bothers me less to cover the X, but that may be because I cant discern the X at longer ranges. 

I shoot best when keeping any part of my face out of the string. That's gotten easier as bows have gotten shorter.

I put a bunch of stuff in this post about my hunting bow setup, but redacted it because of forum rules.


----------



## cwhandyman (Jan 5, 2013)

after 6 months of not shooting cuz of surgery i have the same problem, thing i noticed right away, shooting spots (well lighted bright pin) i get stuck below the x and cant get it up, i found instead of fighting to raise the bow it was easier just to lean a bit to the right (right handed). shot first 3D event (indoors lighting not as good and pin pretty dim) holding on 12 not much of an issue ding ding ding ( score 212 20 targets). went back to spot range covered fiber optic and holding x was 80% better. alot of my problem is still trust, so i been working on form and release firing engine. dont get all caught up in perfect form ( theres no such thing) try tilting a little one way or other, if shooting a pin cover it so its not lighted, have fun and stop beating yourself up trying to fix it, it will come


----------



## ron w (Jan 5, 2013)

hrtlnd164 said:


> OK, since we have a sensible discussion going about the topic. How do you guys feel about the theory that your subconscious is constantly moving your pin off the dot so your mind can see it is still there. I have heard some very respected archers say this and agree. Some personalities will not set well with covering up the exact spot you want to hit. The subconscious effort to see that spot will result in more movement in your sight picture. Was listening to a podcast yesterday and Randy Ulmer touched on this a bit.


very valid question.......
the use of a ring on the lens, instead of a dot, is for this very reason
I started out using a dot, just like most everybody, but found myself deliberately moving the dot to see the x, because I was taught to focus on the x, and of course, couldn't see the x with a dot. 
a ring solved those issues and I haven't used anything else since, including for 3d.
the key element is that you shoot the best, when your aiming process is the most at ease. for some people, when they can't see the x that they're trying to hit, it causes the tension in their aiming process, that makes them sub consciously move the dot to see the x.


----------



## Hoyt_em (Feb 18, 2007)

I think that holding low can be a gear set up/form flaw issue...AND/OR a mental issue. 

I really didn't want to get into a war about the issues causing it, or it it's a mental wiring issue.

I was more curious on how low a hold people are experiencing. 

Just a Simple question...


----------



## Pkeller (Nov 7, 2010)

I have a similar problem, I start high to try to correct for it, but i slowly lower my pin down onto the target, then somehow jump below it and from there it is a continuous battle to try and raise the pin back up to the target. The less I think about it the easier it becomes to settle onto the target...


----------



## cbrunson (Oct 25, 2010)

Hoyt_em said:


> I think that holding low can be a gear set up/form flaw issue...AND/OR a mental issue.
> 
> I really didn't want to get into a war about the issues causing it, or it it's a mental wiring issue.
> 
> ...


Haha. I had the same thing happen on an earlier thread. Everybody wants to fix you rather than answer your question. 

When I was doing it, I could hold solid in the space between the nine and ten rings with an 1/8” dot. If would drop out the bottom a lot, or I would try to bump it up and usually launch it over the top.


----------

