# New Hinge Shooter .....and the Blank Bale



## ArcherXXX300 (Apr 22, 2013)

Its to build muscle memory. I believe it takes like 21-30 days of perfect repetition to build a perfect habit. You need to learn the release separate from the aim so you can have a completely subconscious release. I'm sure there are plenty of other form things you can work on with your eyes closed at 2yds while learning the hinge. When I change hinges do I blind bail eyes closed...no not really, but I do get them setup close without aiming at anything to get the feel of the shot. Buy the book Core Archery by Larry Wise and read it.


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## ron w (Jan 5, 2013)

the short bale drills with a target up, are designed to allow you to concentrate on your execution, without having the difficulty of staying in a 20 yard away bulls eye, at the same time, while you learn to run a good release process. in blind baling, you concentrate on every single little muscle activity that goes on as you run your release execution. this teaches your shot process, what muscles need to work to produce the shot and when done correctly, it ingrains that set of commands into the sub conscious , so that you don't have to think consciously, about running the release correctly. this, opens conscious activity to focus in aiming.
the main problem with people who claim , blind baling did nothing for them, is that they don't focus their attention on those muscular activities as indulging, as they need to. you literally have to "feel", each and every muscular activity that is going on.


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## RCR_III (Mar 19, 2011)

Here's my take on why this is recommended and used. When you first start with a hinge it's new and different and a different feel of shooting. So there's different ways of thinking about your shot. Focus on the target and aiming as primary. Focus on your execution as primary. 

If you focus on the target and aiming, and you have a new release that you are still learning how to manipulate or get used to how it feels in the hand or through the shot, you will constantly have to shuffle your attention back and forth between the target, which is your normal course of action, to the release. This can cause freezing. It can cause panic to set in, or at the very least just show you poor results and discourage you. 

So for this reason that's why the recommendation is made to blank bail as a way to learn the feel of the release and get that down before you move to a target and incorporate too much too quickly. 

I know that when I change from release to release, if I've never shot with it before and I want to focus on feel, I'll blank bail. Or, sometimes I just get off on my shot routine and the feel isn't there and I need to get that back, so I'll blank bail. I don't do that style of shooting for any set number of repetitions, or time frame though. I just focus on what I need to and adjust from there.


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## JF from VA (Dec 5, 2002)

The answer I will give is very simple, but true. You are trying to learn a new skill, shooting a hinge. Most people don't just pick up a new skill and excel at it, learning the skill takes time. Therefore, the objective should be learning the new skill, not seeing if your scores improve by shooting at a target. In my case, I shot fingers for years. About 8 years ago I decided to go to a hinge release. Knowing that I could lose arrows by an unintended trigger of the release, I shot at a blank bale until I was confident that I could control the release. Then I started shooting at targets.

To answer your second question, yes I would start out on a blank bale with a new or unknown release, at least for a few shots, until I got used to it. Because each release is going to feel different and trigger at a different speed, you need to get used to it before your launch an arrow into a ceiling or door.


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## Mahly (Dec 18, 2002)

The main reason it was explained to me is that it builds the execution of the shot in your subconscious.
The general train of thought is that you want to be able to focus solely on your aiming, not your execution. So you learn execution to the point that you don't have to think about it... Like walking.
This frees the mind to focus exclusively on aiming.

Of course this is mostly beneficial to those who follow that train of thought.
If you are more of the type that prefers to just let the aim happen, and focus on execution, blank baling will not be very effective for you... But certainly could be used for a short while to learn a new release.


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## ron w (Jan 5, 2013)

if I grab a "new to me release", i'll generally spend a few shots at the blind bale, or the short bale, just to familiarize my self with the release. my shot process is already well developed and will apply itself to the new release almost immediately, within a couple or so shots. the blind baling, (or short baling), is more a process of confirming the release is compatible with execution, than anything else...... done up close, just to ensure nothing crazy happens during those first few shots with a new release. there always the potential that, no matter how you think the release is set, there's no guarantee, that the setting works the way you think it will, so the close bale or blind bale is more a safety and assurance matter, than anything else.


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## JV NC (Dec 9, 2005)

> Therefore, the objective should be learning the new skill, not seeing if your scores improve by shooting at a target.


Don't read that into my thoughts. I fully expect my scoring to suffer while I learn a new piece of equipment. I just don't know why the two skills have to be learned independently. I'm having a blast, and I have no fears of hurting myself  .



> I shot at a blank bale until I was confident that I could control the release. Then I started shooting at targets.


That's all I've done.

Years ago, I was a PGA Teaching Professional. I love golf, because it provides instant feedback (if you're actually hitting balls). There are 9 basic ball flight patterns, and they provide instant feedback. Shooting at a bale, I have no feedback. 

If I'm not afraid of hitting myself in the mouth, is there anything wrong with the way I'm doing it?


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## EPLC (May 21, 2002)

I would suggest that your process should be a good one before drilling "anything" into the subconscious with blind baling. Bad habits can be engrained just as easy as good ones. My suggestion would be to do some aiming drills combined with learning the release so you will develop a system that you can actually shoot with some degree of accuracy.


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## JV NC (Dec 9, 2005)

I've developed a shot sequence (written down) that I follow. I'm also shooting on some "light" uneven footing. I figured it would do me no good to stand and blank bale on flat ground. Then what?? Blank bale on every conceivable uneven footing situation?

I guess I may just have a hard time with "well, we've always taught it that way".


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## RCR_III (Mar 19, 2011)

If you want to go out and start shooting at a target then go. Because if at this point you've lost interest and value in blank bailing, you won't be learning anything from it. 

The full purpose of blank bailing is to get the feel engrained into your brain of how the release is working and how your body is making it work. Beyond that, it's not something you'll need to do in different senarios, unless you just wanted to for an ongoing issue on feel to be worked out.


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## EPLC (May 21, 2002)

JV NC said:


> I've developed a shot sequence (written down) that I follow. I'm also shooting on some "light" uneven footing. I figured it would do me no good to stand and blank bale on flat ground. Then what?? Blank bale on every conceivable uneven footing situation?
> 
> I guess I may just have a hard time with "well, we've always taught it that way".


I've never found much use for blind baling with the exception of working on one specific task or simply to get a feel of something new. Short range target training, while championed by some, has had its drawbacks for me as well. For me, and I speak based on my own personal experience after shooting 1000's of arrows at short range, it did not help me one tiny bit. The fact is that when I shoot any number of arrows at short range I have to rid myself of the bad aiming habits it produces.


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## carlosii (Feb 25, 2007)

Let's all remember, it's a BALE. Unless you've spent a wild night on the town, got pie-eyed and punched the bartender, and wound up in the jail...than it's probably a bail you're looking for.

:grin:


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## JV NC (Dec 9, 2005)

I used to Blank Bale a lot (when I was shooting traditional). 

But, I also had a video camera set up there. There's some instant feedback! I would do that once a month or so, to see if anything had changed.

Me and my only archery fan.....who I lost in July.


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## RCR_III (Mar 19, 2011)

:thumbs_up haha


carlosii said:


> Let's all remember, it's a BALE. Unless you've spent a wild night on the town, got pie-eyed and punched the bartender, and wound up in the jail...than it's probably a bail you're looking for.
> 
> :grin:


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## grantmac (May 31, 2007)

The blank bale is a TP generator for me. It builds a shot sequence without any aiming and when aiming is reintroduced that shot sequence is now broken.
This is also the opinion of one of the most successful Olympic coaches of all time (Vittorio Frangili).

I am a passive aimer and conscious executioner. I have to be comfortable running my conscious execution while aim is running in the background to be comfortable during my shot sequence. For me running the sequence without any aiming reference is not productive.

When I pick-up a new release I will "shoot" it on the stringbow for a few dozen shots. Indeed when I started with the hinge I carried it and my stringbow around then shot them throughout the day, probably a hundred times a day for a few weeks. I wasn't worried about any sort of shot sequence so there wasn't an issue with building a broken one.

-Grant


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## JV NC (Dec 9, 2005)

^^Cool stuff.

How many times have you gone into the gym and witnessed a "fitness trainer" with someone.....doing that rope thing where they alternately pick up the heavy rope with each arm.

Seriously? Your client is 100#'s overweight. Find them a treadmill!

I like to know "why" people do things. Teach me.....don't tell me. The alternate methods are interesting.


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## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

The biggest problem we all have is our burning desire to hit a spot, it causes problem from the very beginning giving us bad habits and then once we get to the point where we make the decision to shoot a new release such as a hinge we try and get that immediate gratification of hitting perfect. Blank baling is simply the most pure way to let go of any sense of accuracy and just fire the bow.

I personally never could enjoy blank bailing enough to stomach it, I absolutely hate it and so I made my own version of blank bailing which allows me to get the benefit of it without doing it and actually some of my coolest days on the practice range have been done with my paper plate session.

The Paper Plate:
Why a paper plate, because I stinking hate blank baling. Nothing irritates me as much as blank baling and I just can’t do it even though it might be useful I don’t care, I am not freaking doing it. I have been shooting paper plates for over 35 years and it just comes natural to me to grab a few when going out to shoot. Now the method I am getting ready to show you is something I just started to do this last year and it is becoming one of my favorites of all time.

Paper Plate shooting session:

1. Grab a handful of paper plates and one arrow on the way to the range and put one up on the target.

2. Do not put a bulleseye on the paper plate, it should be left blank.

3. Now visualize the center of the paper plate at the distance you are going to shoot at, I suggest the first time you are doing this drill that you use 15 yards as your distance.

4. For the first 10 shots you are going to first draw back and study your float and then let down, You are at full draw floating on the center of the paper plate visualizing the arrow hitting the center of your float pattern and your float pattern is happening on the center of the paper plate.

5. For each let down you are then going to remind yourself that now you are going to draw and come to anchor and start floating on the center of the paper plate and then run your firing engine and hit the center of the paper plate. Now you draw the bow to anchor and shoot.

6. Go get the arrow and if you missed the center then replace the paper plate and put up a new one.
I absolutely love this shooting drill and it is my form of blank bailing without actually doing the blank bailing, the really cool part is when you realize that you have made 15 or 20 good shots and a golf ball sized hole starts to form and the paper vanishes and you continue to stick the arrow in the hole over and over and your pin float is inside the hole and you are just enjoying the shooting experience because you don’t have one stinking arrow that has hit outside the hole.

For me it has become something that I routinely do, I will take a couple paper plates outside with me and I will set up at 30 to 40 yards and start studying my float and shooting and then I will put up a paper plate and see if I can form the golf ball sized hole at that distance if I am shooting really good that day. The farthest I have ever made it is 35 yards and it was so cool to shoot for over a hour and form a hole in the paper plate and have not one stinking arrow that hit outside the hole. I almost had it done at 40 yards one day and had the hole for about 30 minutes but I got greedy and kept shooting and finally I missed by a couple inches and screwed up the perfect paper plate.

I love this drill because in the beginning you have no expectations because there is no bulleseye to hit and if you aren’t shooting that well you just discard the paper plate and put up a new one and continue working on your shooting form and execution. But if you are shooting good and the arrow just keeps hitting the center of the paper plate then you end up leaving it there and the paper starts to vanish and the hole starts to form and your shooting session turns into something special after 15 to 20 shots. To me this is something that blank baling will never ever give you.

Enjoy, Padgett.
Socket Man


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## ron w (Jan 5, 2013)

wow, not everybody has a dog, for spotter !.


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## aread (Dec 25, 2009)

The key to good scores, especially under pressure is to execute your shot the same way every time. 

The bale allows you to mentally focus one part of your execution during a shot and make sure you are doing it the same every time. You don't have to split your focus between execution and aiming. 

Then you repeat it the same enough times that there is no way that your brain can focus on THAT again. You zone out and your attention goes somewhere else. But you still mentally check back to be sure that you are executing the same way. 

Then you introduce a target. A big target close up. The goal is to maintain the same execution while aiming. No pressure, just a paper plate at 5 yards. Don't need to hit the middle, just get the arrow on the plate, while executing the same way every time. After you can focus on the plate and get consistent execution at 5 yards, step back to 7 yards. Repeat. Slowly work back, but only if you are executing the same way every time. After you get to 20 or 30 yards, begin to shrink the size of your paper plate target.

The goal is the same form and execution every time. There is nothing magic about a bale. It's just a convenient arrow catcher. 

JMHO,
Allen


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## ron w (Jan 5, 2013)

aread hit on a important point.... that of making the high pressure shots no different than the regular shots. it is also what working at the blind and short bales do. the better developed your execution is, the less impact a high pressure shot will have on it's outcome. 
developing your execution is dependent on how much focus you can put on it, rather than something else in the shot process, while at the short bale and at the blind bale. 
the blind bale, for practical purposes, is fairly obviously directed at focusing on your execution. there's really not much else to do with nothing to aim at. at the same time, many people don't grasp the idea, that the level of focus must be at it's highest intensity, while blank baling....that's why it is done in front of a bale with nothing on it.....no target....no aiming.
"no aiming", doesn't mean standing there mindlessly plunking arrows into the bunk.
at the short bale, use a target. the advantage of being so close, is that when you do introduce aiming, into the procedure, the bulls eye is huge and easy to stay in, so as little focus as possible, has to be routed away from the execution and towards aiming. this applies what is developed at the blind bale, without the intense focus needed to hammer that center. your shot process learns to run, in cooperation with the mental "drain", so to speak, of aiming, until the two processes learn to work, side by side. 
in both instances ...blind and short baling, the key element is time, most people simply don't devote enough time, to establishing that coordinated effort.
I will assume, for the sake of discussion, the above will generate the question,...... "how long, is enough time?..... 
the answer to that is unknown. because everyone is different in their absorption of practical application. the only definition, is when you are able to produce shots, whose release execution runs by itself and your shot process as a whole, produces groups that stay accumulated around the bull at 20 yards. 
for many shooters, this requires periodic returns to both bales, for short sessions, to strengthen the process as they make the transition from short bale, to 20 yards. 
the key here, is to be completely honest with your self, in evaluating when you are ready to abandon the short drills and stay longer at 20 yards. if you get that feeling that, "maybe I should hit the short bales again for a while", you probably should.


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## JV NC (Dec 9, 2005)

I shortened the draw length on my bow and shot 4 arrows from 20yds (it's colder than a well digger's ass, here). I finally have room for expansion. My head's in a great position. 

Plus, all four arrows were in a 1.5" circle. 

I have no interest in releasing arrows I can't receive feedback from. If this holds me back, it just does.


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## nochance (Nov 27, 2008)

Sounds like you already had your mind made up.


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## EPLC (May 21, 2002)

nochance said:


> Sounds like you already had your mind made up.


That was pretty clear in his OP...  he just wanted to know if there was anything he was missing "between the lines" so to speak...


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## JV NC (Dec 9, 2005)

Oh I did. I never let on I wasn't going to do it my way. I just respectfully asked "why" if you disagreed.


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## mikesmith66 (Aug 8, 2008)

JV NC said:


> I shortened the draw length on my bow and shot 4 arrows from 20yds (it's colder than a well digger's ass, here). I finally have room for expansion. My head's in a great position.
> 
> Plus, all four arrows were in a 1.5" circle.
> 
> I have no interest in releasing arrows I can't receive feedback from. If this holds me back, it just does.


If you want "feedback", read post # 2 and try his routine.

http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=77874


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## N7709K (Dec 17, 2008)

the purpose of blank bale is to master the process without an overwhelming drive to score... you learn the release and how to correctly shoot it before you work aiming and executing a correct shot into the aiming process. The shot is built and honed upon your natural rhythm with aiming removed; as you complete cycle after cycle of your shot it becomes more and more mastered... when you introduce aiming and work on shooting form while incorporating aiming into the equation you keep that natural rhythm and the shots don't stagnate. 

blank bale will not cause issues, won't slow the process, etc...


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## ron w (Jan 5, 2013)

exactly....


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## JV NC (Dec 9, 2005)

> the purpose of blank bale is to master the process without an overwhelming drive to score... you learn the release and how to correctly shoot it before you work aiming and executing a correct shot into the aiming process. The shot is built and honed upon your natural rhythm with aiming removed; as you complete cycle after cycle of your shot it becomes more and more mastered... when you introduce aiming and work on shooting form while incorporating aiming into the equation you keep that natural rhythm and the shots don't stagnate.


As long as you're not a slave to any score (I shoot at a 4'x4' foam target with painted dots on it), what is the harm to learning as you go? I'm not shooting tournaments with the new release.


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## montigre (Oct 13, 2008)

JV NC said:


> As long as you're not a slave to any score (I shoot at a 4'x4' foam target with painted dots on it), what is the harm to learning as you go? I'm not shooting tournaments with the new release.


The possible harm is in adding the factor of aiming into your practice when you're not 100% confident with the new release. This can slow down your overall progress and could create issues down the road. Much better to ingrain a good execution and timing first and then introduce aiming at a spot....JMHO.


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## ron w (Jan 5, 2013)

the agenda, is to produce and develop one release execution, that is your default execution. the simple matter, is that the more choices your shot process needs to choose from, the higher the potential, to devlop some kind of inconsistency in it's administration.


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## JV NC (Dec 9, 2005)

> The possible harm is in adding the factor of aiming into your practice when you're not 100% confident with the new release. This can slow down your overall progress and could create issues down the road. Much better to ingrain a good execution and timing first and then introduce aiming at a spot....JMHO.


Let's assume your shot takes (_____s) at the bale.....but, when you finally get to shooting at a spot, you find your actual aiming time takes (____s +2s). Wouldn't you have to unlearn what you just learned?


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## aread (Dec 25, 2009)

Here are a couple of videos that touch on blank bale and blind bale:

https://vimeo.com/27628681
https://vimeo.com/27628818


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## JV NC (Dec 9, 2005)

aread said:


> Here are a couple of videos that touch on blank bale and blind bale:
> 
> https://vimeo.com/27628681
> https://vimeo.com/27628818


Very cool. Thank you.


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## montigre (Oct 13, 2008)

JV NC said:


> Let's assume your shot takes (_____s) at the bale.....but, when you finally get to shooting at a spot, you find your actual aiming time takes (____s +2s). Wouldn't you have to unlearn what you just learned?


No. Once your execution and shot timing is down pat on the blank bale, when a target is introduced, you should only have to make small adjustments to experience the same feel and timing--the same types of small adjustments you make as a matter of course when shooting any competition...you do not need to relearn anything.

Nice posts, Allen. I had forgotten Jammie had made these videos.


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## JV NC (Dec 9, 2005)

Just hear me out on this....as I'm just thinking out-loud....

As I said earlier....I was once a golf instructor. I really never had folks practicing their swings without a ball there. And, I never really advocated hitting balls into a net (unless you had no other choice). IMO, there's a certain amount of "feel" that's lost..........if you're not loosing arrows at a target.

I'll likely do some more blank and blind bale shooting (and honestly, I always have to a small degree). But, I don't lend it the credence many do. I also have no aspirations of doing this for money or national titles. Just looking to hone my shooting skills for hunting......while remaining competitive, locally.

I sincerely appreciate everyone's input.


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## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

Listen to all the guys that have posted because they are telling the truth, I know that I said that I hate blank baling and I gave you the paper plate session that I prefer but I hope that you realize these guys have been where you are and they are giving you the best advice out there.

1. Learning how to execute smooth strong shots should be your one and only goal right now.

2. Shooting at a target and scoring will do nothing but slow down the process, by working on your execution you will speed up the process a bunch.

If you don't do the things that we are suggesting what happens is that you end up having control issues of commanding the shot and you may improve but you will hit walls that you can't seem to get past and sooner or later you have to step back and start over. When this happens you will again be presented with the option of blank bailing and doing things right or spending a lot of time trying to start over and ending up back at that wall.

I in my opinion was very lucky, for some reason I was a good enough shooter to get to a level that was successful where I was happy without blank bailing and some of the other tried and true things but I spend so much time here on archery talk that I have gotten past those walls. I think a lot of it is my coaching and going over these thing thousands of times in these threads that allowed me to do so, it did slow down my process some but in all reality once I started seeing the truth about what a really strong shooter needed to be doing it only took me 2 years to really become that shooter. I can only speculate but if I had a coach that I trusted and he presented the stuff to me that I have learned from day one I think I could have done it in a single year but one thing that you can't get passed is the thousands of shots to form that muscle memory and shot routine. So I don't know, I think 2 years is a pretty good time frame to go from being a sponge soaking up the information to getting all the lessons ingrained into your system so that you feel like you are on top of your shooting and can just sit back and enjoy your shooting.


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## JV NC (Dec 9, 2005)

3rd time I've had to say this......but....I am NOT scoring anything.

I'm not competing with this release (and, if I did shoot a round of 3D....it would be a "fun" round). 

I'm just spending most (nearly all) of my time shooting my 4'x4' block target in my yard (with painted dots). That's it.


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## ron w (Jan 5, 2013)

the cold hard fact, is that your shot process, and thus your execution, has no idea whether it, as an operation, is shooting at a target or a blank bale, or from any particular distance. it should run exactly the same, no matter the circumstances of it's running environment. the short bale drills and blind baling develop it, specifically, to do just that. when it's administration is well established in the sub conscious, it will run regardless of outside influences such as what your aiming process sees, because it will run independently of the aiming process. this eliminates the need of the shot execution's administration to try to split focuses, between running the execution and focusing on where you want the arrow to go. the only conscious regulation that involves the shot's execution, then becomes the decision to allow the shot to continue or to refuse the shot's progression, for matters that are concerned with the quality of the shots progress as it builds to the break of the shot. aiming then becomes the controller of whether the shot is in fact progressing, as you want it to, by seeing, how your pin or dot, is aligning with the target. the concerns there, are fairly obvious and easily decided upon. either you see that the sights are aligning and you allow the shot to continue, or you see that the sight is not aligning, and you refuse to allow the shot to progress.
any "in between" in this pair of conditions, is an opportunity to produce a bad shot, because the "in between's", are what force the shot to progress by the decision to consciously, "not refuse the in between condition" of the shot's administration and progression. 
that "line in the sand", has to be well defined and clearly understood by the shot process's administration, in order to produce a good shot. defining that "line in the sand", is what shooting the "short bale" drills, or the "let down" drills do, by teaching the administration, that only good progression of the shot , will be tolerated. 
that's where the notion, "that a let down is as good in value to the shot process, as a well administered shot, that hits the center is". that let down is the "threat", so to speak, that keeps the administration of the shot process, "in line and sending only good commands".


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## aread (Dec 25, 2009)

Blank bale is nothing new. I read a translation of a rant by the Imperial Chinese Archery Master complaining that the new archers wouldn't spend enough time on the bale before going out to see what they could do. This was from about 600 years ago. Blank bale was a well established technique even back then.

A training method is not going to hang around for centuries unless it works. 

Nobody is going to come over to your house and give you a hard time if you don't train on a blank bale.  How you train or practice is entirely up to you. We're just a bunch of pretty knowledgeable archers trying to help another archer.

JMHO, 
Allen


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## Mahly (Dec 18, 2002)

JV NC said:


> 3rd time I've had to say this......but....I am NOT scoring anything.
> 
> I'm not competing with this release (and, if I did shoot a round of 3D....it would be a "fun" round).
> 
> I'm just spending most (nearly all) of my time shooting my 4'x4' block target in my yard (with painted dots). That's it.


Admittedly, being intermediate/advanced competition forum... That's pretty much the advice your going to get


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## RCR_III (Mar 19, 2011)

Are you aiming at the dots? That's the part that's being advised to leave out. The aiming portion. Whether you're scoring or not, it's just the shooting at the dots causing you to aim just like you would at a target face or 3D target. Now, if you're just shooting at the 4x4 block and letting them hit where they hit that's different. That's focusing on just the feel.


JV NC said:


> 3rd time I've had to say this......but....I am NOT scoring anything.
> 
> I'm not competing with this release (and, if I did shoot a round of 3D....it would be a "fun" round).
> 
> I'm just spending most (nearly all) of my time shooting my 4'x4' block target in my yard (with painted dots). That's it.


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## unclejane (Jul 22, 2012)

I personally don't like to drag out blind baling. I'll do it if I'm roughing in a new bow or trying out a new technique or piece of equipment, but my preference is to get a target involved pretty early on in the process. Basically as soon as I can keep it on the bale and out of the wall at a reasonable distance (10 yards or more), I put a target up (tho I don't score it).

The reason I do this is, if something I'm doing at the bale is incompatible with the entire shot process including aiming I like to find that out ASAP. For example, I can shoot an index finger release beautifully blind-bale. But it's hopeless once I reintroduce aiming no matter how much time I spend doing those beautiful shots up close on the bale.

Plus, that's just part of my overall learning habits. I prefer to get just barely good enough with each piece and then put them together into the whole unified performance early on. Some prefer to really refine the pieces first before putting them together, but I seem to do better getting the entire "scaffolding" in place ASAP. Even if it's schlock, like it usually is, I prefer to get it assembled as early as I can. Then I'll clean up the mess as I go along.

So I find it valuable, but I also don't like to tarry and wring my hands and hum&haw in front of the bale forever. I get off it and start looking at a spot pretty quickly...

LS


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## EPLC (May 21, 2002)

I know I'm risking being the od man out here but I've worked my execution to death using various methods and nothing really put me where I felt I should be even though I've done reasonably well at the State and Regional levels. What I've learned recently is that I've not spent enough time working on my float and spent all together too much time on execution. In the past few months I've had to rebuild everything from the ground up. During this process I have actually reduced my float by at least 50% over what it was. On most shots I can now float within the gold and 50% of those are within the 10 ring on a Vegas face. I was always under the mistaken impression that your "float" was what is was and you just had to except it, not pay attention to it, and shoot through it. While this may be true, I don't think it's true until you get to a point where your float is manageable. There were reasons that I thought this way that I won't get into. 

That said, I'm currently working this whole process from a totally different perspective... and direction. What I have found to be most helpful to my entire game is to work on my form and aiming process first, then building a shot execution process that impacts my float the least. Currently my float is the best it ever has been and I'm working on a shot process that is compatible with it. I've made some real progress in both my float and my execution by working it this way. It may not be for everyone, but it's my story and I'm sticking to it


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## ron w (Jan 5, 2013)

aread said:


> Blank bale is nothing new. I read a translation of a rant by the Imperial Chinese Archery Master complaining that the new archers wouldn't spend enough time on the bale before going out to see what they could do. This was from about 600 years ago. Blank bale was a well established technique even back then.
> 
> A training method is not going to hang around for centuries unless it works.
> 
> ...


 seems to me, I've said something of that sort, a few times on here. not necessarily about the Imperial Chinese army, but about the origin of blank baling. my post was going off of anecdotal memory of the history of archery in general, not from direct research.


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## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

You are right ronw, even the korean olympic shooters spend tons of time doing everything but shooting a arrow.


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## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

For me I remained a control shooter or command shooter for a long time and it wasn't until I became a Spectaror Shooter that I finally was able to work on my execution of my shots completely disconnected from my float. If you don't have things under control and you are still commanding or controlling your shot then blank baling is the only solution. for me I lucked out and got my mental approaches under control and made it right where I should be without the trusty blank bale.


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## EPLC (May 21, 2002)

Padgett said:


> You are right ronw, even the korean olympic shooters spend tons of time doing everything but shooting a arrow.


That doesn't sound like any fun at all although I have managed to stop scoring (sort of) my practice rounds. I actually do "some" blank baling, very little blind baling and very, very little short range target work. I used to do a lot of the short range target practice but as mentioned previously it tends to mess with my aiming. I am finding that the work I've done on my float, such as studying the float patterns has really helped. Now I'm working on my firing engine as I found out very quickly what I had developed initially was messing with my new found float. Still, things were better.


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## ron w (Jan 5, 2013)

Korean Olympic athletes, are not, in any way, "in it for the fun". it is there civic duty to represent their civilization to their highest capability. failing to do so, is a disgrace to their entire family's social status.. you might say it is seriously their "job and life's responsibility" to the same level, as we provide for our families..


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## N7709K (Dec 17, 2008)

how do you gauge the quality of your shot- is it through how the shot feels/breaks/progresses (i.e. a good shot) or is it through where it impacts on the target?


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## EPLC (May 21, 2002)

N7709K said:


> how do you gauge the quality of your shot- is it through how the shot feels/breaks/progresses (i.e. a good shot) or is it through where it impacts on the target?


Yes to all... but a progressive gauge. Most important right now, is how the shot feels and breaks, not sure what you mean by progresses. Of course landing in the middle is always good feedback but not my biggest concern. AS a drill I've been shooting ten one arrow ends, with the goal of shooting the spot clean. By doing this it produces enough pressure to make it interesting, but not so much to distract from how the shot feels. It's been working out well for me, my float has been reduced and I have a shot I can call my own. I've found that I can only do this well by focusing on my shot... without doing that I can't keep them in the middle. So... not only am I learning the feel of the shot, I'm also seeing the results. I'm also screwing around with some new hinge releases so my firing engine hasn't settled in 100% as yet but I'm getting there. I took your advice of a while back and writing this season off looking forward to the spring. I'm going to the NFAA Field nationals in PA and would like to bring my "A" game.


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## jlsmith1000 (Nov 11, 2014)

So I'm the last guy here to even suggest I know what I'm talking about when it comes to shooting a hinge. But, I have been learning to shoot one in the past 2 months. The biggest problem I have is that there are a myriad of small factors that effect how the shot goes off. Wednesday night at my league, I shot the best I've ever shot on a 5 spot target the first half, second half, completely fell apart but could not for the life of me figure out what I was doing wrong and spent the whole time trying to figure out if my anchor, grip, etc. was somehow changed...it wasn't.

I studied music, my old instructors, all of them, said practice isn't enough, perfect practice is what's necessary. That means if I practice something over and over and over and over until I can do it without thinking, but what I'm practicing isn't right, then I've managed to teach myself something I'll play hell to unlearn.

When I hear somebody say go pound a blank bale and don't even think about aiming at a target, the only thing I can think about is how do I measure if I'm even close to right in what I'm doing if I have no means to compare my actions to the results? I'm not arguing, I'm asking. Now, if I had a coach standing next to me saying, you're elbow is too high, you're already loaded into your back etc. then I can see that, but when it's just me, I'm struggling to understand how I 1) keep myself from pounding a bad habit into myself and 2) know if any change I make in what I'm doing/feeling is the right change?

Back to my league on Wednesday. Turns out, I had slightly changed the way I was drawing the bow and my elbow was about 2 inches higher which was causing me to load into my back by the end of the draw, giving me nowhere to go once anchored. One of the fellows in the league came up to me about 3/4 of the way through the second half and pointed it out. I knew I was drawing a little differently, but I had no idea that I wasn't in the same spot, seemed like I was.


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## JV NC (Dec 9, 2005)

^^ For God's sake.......Please don't tell us you were using your hinge to score a round .......after only two months!!!!!

(I'm completely kidding).


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

Bits and pieces...Terry Wunderle article....30 days to better bow shooting

All of Wunderle's students spend endless hours shooting "blank bale," that is, shooting at a target butt with no target face, from 10 to 15 feet. And the world champions are the ones who spend the most time doing it. "I bet most of your readers won't do this," he says. "Just like most target archers won't. 'It's too boring,' they say. And my answer is, 'Fine, then you'll be the same guys who never have to worry about getting bored picking up trophies.'" Here's his suggested routine to get yourself ready for the season.

Days 11-20Shoot blank bale for the first 10 minutes. For the next 20 minutes, alternate every other shot between shooting at the blank bale and shooting at a dot or other small target. Talk to yourself, stating your intentions: Draw, float the pin until it settles, then pull it apart. Even when you're shooting the target, do not aim. If you're in good form, the pin will find the target. Judge your success by how good your form is. Strive for awareness of the forward and backward pressure with your two arms. 

Days 21-30Continue to shoot blank bale for the first 10 minutes. Spend the remaining 20 shooting at the target. As long as you're shooting smoothly, stay on the target. You should be settling into a rhythm where the time it takes for the arrow to go off once you begin the shot process-"that is, once the pin has settled and you've begun to pull the bow apart-"is within a second or so each time. If you find yourself aiming, go back and shoot a couple of shots at the blank bale.


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## ron w (Jan 5, 2013)

the painful truth is, that you cannot spend too much time blank baling. clearly, the better those muscles are told what to do, the better they learn what to do and operate. similarly, just like your shooting .....the better your brain gets at telling them what to do, the better it gets at telling them what to do....they can't do well, if they're not told what to do, well. "perfect practice, practiced perfectly", for your brain, as well as your body. what happens at the target, is completely dependent on what happens at the bow. there's just no two ways about that.


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## JV NC (Dec 9, 2005)

SonnyThomas said:


> Days 11-20Shoot blank bale for the first 10 minutes. For the next 20 minutes, alternate every other shot between shooting at the blank bale and shooting at a dot or other small target. Talk to yourself, stating your intentions: Draw, float the pin until it settles, then pull it apart. Even when you're shooting the target, do not aim. If you're in good form, the pin will find the target. Judge your success by how good your form is. Strive for awareness of the forward and backward pressure with your two arms.


^^ I really like this.


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## ron w (Jan 5, 2013)

yup, 
you have to approach "blind baling", with the understanding that it's not about what goes on at the target....it's about what goes on at the bow and what goes on at the bow, has nothing to do with what goes on at the target, so there's no reason to aim at anything.


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## unclejane (Jul 22, 2012)

jlsmith1000 said:


> When I hear somebody say go pound a blank bale and don't even think about aiming at a target, the only thing I can think about is how do I measure if I'm even close to right in what I'm doing if I have no means to compare my actions to the results? I'm not arguing, I'm asking. Now, if I had a coach standing next to me saying, you're elbow is too high, you're already loaded into your back etc. then I can see that, but when it's just me, I'm struggling to understand how I 1) keep myself from pounding a bad habit into myself and 2) know if any change I make in what I'm doing/feeling is the right change?


Yep, this is why as I mentioned before, I don't like to pound a blank bale for too long. It may also be why, for me, blank bailing has been ineffective as a treatment for target panic. I sympathize with the idea of separating out the shot performance from aiming, but sadly, at some point you do eventually have to put them back together again. If what you're doing at the bow is incompatible, for you, with aiming, it makes no difference how much you practice it at the bale. If they don't mix, they just don't mix.

I learned this the hard way back when I shot an index finger release. I wasted over a month at the bale practicing a skill that was essentially unusable for shooting at a target in the end. And I didn't find that out until after a lot of wear and tear on the equipment and my upper body LOL.

But I should also add the proviso that that's an entirely individual thing. Sure, I advocate debugging this particular item first before taking off the target and proceeding up there to the bail for the next 30 days, but I don't discount that that does work for many, many shooters. And they've gotten excellent results and very good treatments for TP using that method.

So in the usual AT spirit, I have to say BB simply doesn't work for me and the above is why, not doesn't work period and never do it etc.....

LS


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## ron w (Jan 5, 2013)

"blank baling" is not supposed to be "treatment for target panic. it never was intended to be treatment for target panic, nor does it, by itself do any sort of "curing" of target panic. 
it does , however, build one of the main "tools" that you use during the treatment of target panic and the main tool that keeps target panic away while shooting, once you cure yourself of it. it is the lack of that "tool" that it builds, that is the main reason target panic develops.


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## unclejane (Jul 22, 2012)

ron w said:


> "blank baling" is not supposed to be "treatment for target panic. it never was intended to be treatment for target panic, nor does it, by itself do any sort of "curing" of target panic.
> it does , however, build one of the main "tools" that you use during the treatment of target panic and the main tool that keeps target panic away while shooting, once you cure yourself of it. it is the lack of that "tool" that it builds, that is the main reason target panic develops.


hmm, yes, good point. I will say that it's often suggested as a first necessary step in TP's treatment, but it's possibly a misguided suggestions, a form of overtreatment perhaps, in the way you state here.... 

For example, when I was shooting oly recurve I did some blank bale to learn the back tension method (basically mandatory for a recurve/longbow) and it was very good for that. OTOH, pulling through a shot with back tension regardless of bow type is compatible, for me, with the aiming process. So that "tool" I learnt at the bail is actually what I've fallen back onto to treat my TP. And I didn't have to return to the bail for that next part of it (putting the entire shot back together including aiming).

But to be perfectly honest about it, I took those steps - a) go to a hinge release and b) relearn a shot process on compound using back tension - at 10 yards with a target on the bail by the end of day one. I literally did only 2 ends with my genesis pro and Honey do before I stuck a single-spot on my Block. I've been shooting both a hinge and a pull-through that way ever since.

Meanwhile, yes I think your clarification is quite right here, IMHO....

LS


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## ron w (Jan 5, 2013)

very often, misunderstood and misguiding as a suggested cure. it will actually do nothing to cure target panic, by itself. it's everything else that you do after blind baling, that cures target panic.


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## reaper159 (Feb 15, 2012)

ron w said:


> very often, misunderstood and misguiding as a suggested cure. it will actually do nothing to cure target panic, by itself. it's everything else that you do after blind baling, that cures target panic.


Which is???? I have tp (freezing below) and just ordered a hinge. I have a longhorn hex and it helped, but I'd like to try a true hinge. Just ordered a longhorn hunter and am gonna blank/blind bale to get execution down. Just kind of like to have a good game plan going in. I tried to find Padgett's article on hinge set up, but I can't seem to find it. Some days I can hold and float on the target; some days it seems like there is #100 weight on my bow arm and the pin just hovers under the bullseye.


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## ron w (Jan 5, 2013)

the reason hinges have been so commonly suggested as a cure for target panic, is simply because the process of learning to use one well, includes much of the same content as the process for curing target panic. namely the two main drills that work to rid a shooter of target panic, are the same two drills that are used to learn shooting a hinge.....blind baling and the short yardage drill, with a target up on the bale. the other, ...the let down drill, is a universal drill, that works to develop a good execution, no matter what type of release you use . it too, is a useful drill in curing target panic, because it involves the introduction of dealing with the aiming process, while running a good execution, which is actually the main mental confluence, that develops target panic.
the fact is, that the release you use has no effectual input on the development of target panic. because it is a mentally born problem, the release can only do what you tell it to do. so the cure for target panic, is to properly learn what to tell the release to do, not what release is being used.
freezing up, sounds like an 'aiming problem", but it is actually generated by the release process, not being confident it will perform the way it should. it, then looks to find any reason it can, to keep from having to operate. the simple fact that most shooters are usually weakest in their confidence and execution of aiming ( just about everyone wishes they could hold steadier, or they don't trust their float)., allows Target panic to "get it's foot in the door", at this point in the shot execution.


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

reaper159 said:


> Which is???? I have tp (freezing below) and just ordered a hinge. I have a longhorn hex and it helped, but I'd like to try a true hinge. Just ordered a longhorn hunter and am gonna blank/blind bale to get execution down. Just kind of like to have a good game plan going in. I tried to find Padgett's article on hinge set up, but I can't seem to find it. Some days I can hold and float on the target; some days it seems like there is #100 weight on my bow arm and the pin just hovers under the bullseye.


Always reading. Yeah, the pits, but read through. There's a piece for you. And way down at the bottom is a list to look over. 
http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=453859


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## JV NC (Dec 9, 2005)

I didn't want to start a new thread. But, is it normal for me to tire out pretty quickly......as I learn to shoot the hinge?

I'm good for about 3-arrow ends. Past that, I'm fighting it. I suppose this is just new muscles being worked, and it'll get better as they get stronger? Maybe I'll also learn to manipulate the hinge a little differently??

Just curious. This is the best thing that's ever happened to my shooting. I'm sure of that. The good shots are great. The bad ones are OK.


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## Mahly (Dec 18, 2002)

Depending on your firing engine, you are likely using muscles in a new way. Using some of those muscles more, or using some of them for the first time in your shooting.
If 3 arrows are all your good for....just shoot 3 for now. No need to push and fire "bad" arrows...who wants to practice shooting bad? :wink:

Now if it was something affecting a 5 spot league, I'd say drop poundage, but if it isn't, you will build strength quicker with more weight less shots.
You mentioned only 3 arrows per end...but not how many ends. If your recovering quickly enough that you can shoot enough arrows 3 at a crack for the whole time, again, I would just keep working.
If your NOT recovering, and your limited to a short time of only 3 per end, then yeah, drop it down. Target doesn't need more KE than it takes to stick in the bale.

Great to hear the shooting itself is getting better!


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## JV NC (Dec 9, 2005)

Good point. I probably shot 50 or more arrows (some 5 arrow ends).


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## ron w (Jan 5, 2013)

yup, I always wondered why and how the trend in spot bow draw weights has gone from the typical 40-45 lbs back in the 70's and early 80's to 50lbs. and even almost 60lbs, now-a-days.
to me, it just doesn't make any sense to choose, or set a bow up by by the holding eight when it means the peak weight has to be way up in that range. 
I would have thought the manufacturers would have universally maintained production of one set of cams that would produce decent holding weight without needing all that peak weight to get it, just for their target bows. there's no reason the can't......most all the records that have been set and still stand, were done with bows that did exactly that, many years ago when profile technology was at that level of bias.
more let-off, higher peak weight and faster arrows won't break a record that is already standing as unbeatable.


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## JV NC (Dec 9, 2005)

I shot 60 arrows today @ 60#s (50 yesterday). I'm going to try to do that at least every other day. Hopefully, the 60 arrow game I have coming up in May will find me ready by then. We have 250 seconds to shoot each end. Hopefully I'll be ok with that much time.


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## montigre (Oct 13, 2008)

JV NC said:


> I shot 60 arrows today @ 60#s (50 yesterday). Hopefully I'll be ok with that much time.


Don't worry about the time. 4 mins to shoot 5 arrows is a lifetime. :smile:


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## JV NC (Dec 9, 2005)

Yeah I think so too. It'll probably be unnerving for this ol boy. I think I'll practice taking 20 or so seconds between shots and see how that goes (knowing I could easily go to 30+ if I needed to). My guess is I'll be the first one done, each end, though  .


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## COBowhnter (Nov 1, 2013)

JV NC said:


> Yeah I think so too. It'll probably be unnerving for this ol boy. I think I'll practice taking 20 or so seconds between shots and see how that goes (knowing I could easily go to 30+ if I needed to). My guess is I'll be the first one done, each end, though  .[/QUOTE
> the rest between shots will be very important towards the end rounds, you will be tired emotionally as well...


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## JV NC (Dec 9, 2005)

Thanks for that tip. I've never shot one of these rounds. I'm ordering some target faces, and I'll shoot several practices leading up. I'll find a lag time between shots that works. I'm going to try to build up to a 900 game, so the 600 game seems like a breeze.

I used to run triathlons.....lol. "Training" for an archery match is something I thought I'd never do!


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## Lazarus (Sep 19, 2005)

JV NC said:


> Thanks for that tip. I've never shot one of these rounds. I'm ordering some target faces, and I'll shoot several practices leading up. I'll find a lag time between shots that works. I'm going to try to build up to a 900 game, so the 600 game seems like a breeze.
> 
> I used to run triathlons.....lol. "Training" for an archery match is something I thought I'd never do!


JV NC, I'm kind of late tot his discussion and haven't read the whole topic so if this has been discussed please forgive me. However...........

A couple of years ago I read somewhere, it may have been some of Lanny Basshams material, that someone had done an extensive study on timing between your shots in archery and possibly competitive rifle shooting. I don't remember the numbers but there was a very significant increase in performance when the shooters allowed, I believe it was 15 seconds of complete rest between shots. That wasn't including the time it took to load an arrow etc, it was complete rest. My apologies but I don't recall exactly where I read it.


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## JV NC (Dec 9, 2005)

That's a good place to start! I'll do just that.

Thank you.


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

The 15 seconds Laz notes is the real deal. Some don't notice it, but shoot a few quick shots and let your bow down, let it relax and you should feel a change. Blood circulating. Lanny or someone gave a break down of the bow arm in strength that I can't remember exactly, but something like; 1st shot, 100%. 2nd shot, 90%. 3rd shot, 75%. 4th shot, 60%. That 15 seconds, I think 17, lets the bow arm recover to 100%.


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## JV NC (Dec 9, 2005)

This is why I love this place.

I'm also going to add in some "can" exercises. I'm sure they'll help, and I can do them in my office.


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