# Spin Wing Testing



## limbwalker

As soon as I read that, I knew Rick would have to come clean or risk being mugged by an angry mob of AT'ers... 

Should be interesting. I am anxious to see better performance from spinnies than the vanes I've been shooting for years...

John.


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## pencarrow

Me too John. How have you been?

Fritz


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## huffy

Sounds very interesting I too look forward to hearing what makes the difference from a poor group to a world round breaking group.

Assuming that everything was the same 

Best wishes, Mark


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## Acehero

I thought the same when i saw that post! I'm eagerly awaiting Rick spilling the beans


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## pencarrow

Rick:
Not to steal this thread, but I was intrigued buy your conversion to Spin Wing Vanes. At this years outdoor Nationals the pros&cons of spin vs straight vanes was subject of conversation by the 60+ guys. Doc,David Brandfass, told of a test Easton had done, shooting 100 arrows fletched with spins Vs. 100 fletched with straight vanes, using a shooting machine @ 70M. The spins averaged 9.8, while the straights averaged 8.3. Since returning home I have tried spin wings, and have not realized much improvement in groups. I expect it is more me than the vanes. My question is.If it's not a trade secret What was the, "how to test" the son-in-law told you.

Thanks
Fritz


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## Progen

Perhaps the Force at work I sense.

It's a Jedi mind trick.


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## Rick McKinney

Gee…where do I start?  I guess I should tell you a few things about Spin Wing vanes. There are several types including pliability, drag, height and length. 

First are the colors. White is the softest which allows for more forgiveness if the vane hits the rest or plunger. Yellow is next, then red, blue and finally black is the stiffest. Obviously the black will hold it’s integrity downrange better than the rest. However, you have to determine if one performs better than the other by testing. Yes, it can become expensive. I have always stayed with the white because I have always had to deal with clearance issues. 

Next is the length of the vane. It depends on the speed of the arrow to determine which vane length you should use. The faster the shaft the smaller the vane needed. If you get too much drag on the shaft (longer fletch) you may end up with a parachuting effect downrange causing your groups to open up. That’s why you see more archers using the 2+” vanes with their x10’s. Most use the 1¾” vanes with their ACE’s and I have recommended using the 1 9/16” vane for McKinney II. 

Now you also have to keep in mind of the clearance issue. This can be due to the height of the vane (the 1 9/16” and 2” vane are lower profiles, while the 1 3/4'” and 2 3/16” vanes are higher profiles). If you are touching anything you may need to go to a smaller height vane if you cannot get better clearance. Using lipstick on the edge of your vane will show you if you have clearance issues. The lipstick will leave a mark where it hits. You can adjust your nock as well to get better clearance which I talk about a little later.

Now location of the vane becomes a bit critical. The length down from the nock is important. You do not want the vanes near your fingers. I know this sounds a bit weird but this part does affect the performance of the vane if your fingers touch the vane while releasing. Don’t put the vane down the shaft too far either (further from the nock). The farther down the shaft the more unstable the flight becomes. So get it back near the nock as close as you can without your fingers touching the vanes upon release. 

Next is vane angle. You need to put the vanes on close to 0 degrees. The more angle you put on this vane, the more drag created and the less you will group (again, parachuting effect). Once you figure that out, then you need to decide best nock location compared to the vane. If you turn your nock a little it may make all the difference in the world for better grouping. This can be found easily by shooting and plotting your arrows. Shoot a few ends and move the nock a bit, shoot and plot. Once you find which gives you the best grouping then write everything down. The more information you have the easier it is to do this again and again. For instance, I had one fletch going exactly 12 o’clock high when the nock was on the string which gave me the clearance I needed. 

Now, once you have done all of this you will need to verify the vane performs well in all conditions. Testing the vane in different winds and wind angles helps to learn how the vane performs and of course testing in the rain will help you understand which vane works best. You are looking for the over all performance of a vane, not one that does well in one particular condition. 

Don’t forget there are two vane drags available. The light drag and standard. Usually, those with heavy poundage need to use the light drag vane. Those with lighter poundage should try the standard vane. 

The Elite vane needs to be compared with the regular vane to find if it works better. I did not find the Elite to work for me. However, I have seen Vic Wunderle use them and was successful with them. So again you must try them to find out if they work. 

All of this takes money to find out which vane works. What I suggest is to get a group of archers together. Each of you can buy one or two different packets of vanes and share. This will keep your costs down and allows more testing. 

Here is another little story to show you how important it is to find out how the vane works. I was doing some testing for Richard Carella who was the inventor of the vane. He recommended I try the 2” vane. It was a little lower profile than the 1 ¾” and it just might give me an edge. So I put them on and they worked extremely well. My scores jumped up about 3-5 points at 50 and 70 meters (this was where I ran most of my tests). I was getting ready to go to a major event and decided to re-fletch my vanes so I stripped the 2”ers off grabbed some tape out of the 1 ¾” vane packet thinking it did not matter. Well obviously it did matter. The tape in the 2” packet was a lot slimmer than the ones in the 1 ¾”. Thus I changed the drag of the vane and the performance was lousy to say the least. This just shows you that even a top archer will do silly things not thinking them through until it is too late. A good lesson learned though and it made me be more methodical. Oh and use the force! :mg:

Ok…fire away if you have any questions.


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## midwayarcherywi

Rick,
Can you provide a little more color as it regards this sentence?
*So he took the arrows and stripped them down and refletched them again with a different placement and angle. An hour or so later, he gave me the arrows again. I shot them and my heart skipped a beat! They grouped REALLY good at 50 meters.*
In your last post I got the impression that 0 degrees was what you were trying to achieve. I guess I'm curious about the placement and angle that he was trying to get.
Thanks,
Gabe


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## Rick McKinney

He had the vanes a little too close to my fingers. They were fine at full draw but I knew that when I let go, my fingers would touch the vanes. Also, the vanes were about 2-3 degrees on the shaft. He made them 0 degrees. Then he tweaked the nock alignment until they started grouping. I think that these three things helped me shoot some great scores. Actually two of these items were fairly simple, distance of the vane from the fingers and angle. However, tweaking the nock around until I got absolute clearance was paramount. As I said, I had one fletch that lined up right with the string, thus the “cock” fletch was really lower than the normal positioning. Now, this does not mean it will work for everyone, but it really worked for me. My upper “hen” fletch would sometimes hit my plunger causing erratic flight and poor grouping. Just turning the nock a little eliminated that problem.


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## midwayarcherywi

Thanks Rick. I can't tell you how much I appreciate your willingness to share your knowledge. The Blank Bale thread and this Spin Wing discussion, have really been helpful!
In fact, my thanks to the many AT contributors, who really make this site a valuable resource.


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## pencarrow

Rick;
Thanks for the explanation, it all makes sense now. I was not aware of the colors being the code for amount of stiffness:embara:.Lancaster makes no mention of there being a difference, only colors and lengths . I have been using white 1 9/16", should be black 2".Also I was putting them on with a 1dg offset. I am using McKinney II 725s 32# 24 3/4" draw.
Thanks again.
Fritz


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## limbwalker

Great information there Rick. Thanks for posting. It all makes perfect sense.

The real weak link to all this is the "testing" part... If only we were machines that shot exactly the same all day, every day... :embara:

Makes me want to test some spinnies now. 

But oh those new AAP vanes are so darn maintenance free...! :darkbeer:

John.


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## Progen

pencarrow said:


> ... I was not aware of the colors being the code for amount of stiffness ...


You're not the only one. Quite a lot of the student recurvers where I am use a mixture of colours. Either for looks (THEIR preferences) or because they assumed that it'd be useful to have a different coloured one denoting the cock fletch.

This information is actually available on the piece of paper backing in each pack.


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## Blackfletch

Rick, have you experimented with the number of tape wraps and their placement on the fletch? I find that the tape wrap ends loosen and protrude from the shaft after some shooting. I cut the loose ends off with a razor blade (VERY carefully). Is this what you reccomend or have another suggestion?


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## limbwalker

> I find that the tape wrap ends loosen and protrude from the shaft after some shooting


You gotta glue those tape ends down. Otherwise, you'll fight loose tape ends and arrows sticking together the entire time you shoot spinnies. Personally, I stopped using the tape provided and began using pinstriping tape that I bought at an auto parts dealer. Tougher, sticks better and comes in colors 

Just put a small drop of glue at the tape end as soon as you cut the tape and you'll be good to go.

John.


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## ROB TAYLOR

I know next to nothing about all this except that K1 archery (http://k1-archery.com/vanes/spin_index.php) sells what looks like the better mousetrap compared to the tape. They have little pieces of colored, thin walled latex tubing, much like peep tubing but thinner in the walls. You take a short section of this stuff and roll it up on the ends of your spinnies where the tape used to be applied. They actually have a pair of spreader pliers that they sell to place the stuff in lieu of rolling it up/down the shaft. Just a thought.

And speaking of pinstriping tape, anyone read the experiments by OL Adcock about a strip or tape wrapped around the shaft just forward of the fletching creating an air disturbance that helped and quieted (really a hunting application) the fletching in some way? I didn't read it all but it sounded interesting as I skimmed it....might have been on Tradgang or the Leatherwall.


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## Jurasic Archer

Nice info Rick! Spin wings are interesting and not as straight forward to set up as a straight fletch. They take up a wider path than a straight vane that must be accomodated (nock alignment) to get the best clearance. Some strike the lower vane and most strike the upper or hen fletch. I have seen an upper vane strike a clicker and a sight bar! The first time I tried them I shot poorly with them as well and went back to straight hard vanes. I now use them on my indoor arrows instead of feathers. (You know, you grow) 

Was Pat Burgham the person you were speaking of Rick? 

I have noticed that the Elite vane is tougher to get to clear than the regular, but if you have good clearence they work great. I struggled with the JOAD kids getting them to clear. I think most were shooting arrows on the stiff side and they just would not clear. 

Cheers,
MG


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## Rick McKinney

John. Using rubber vanes is easy maintenance, but if you watch the top archers (medal winners) there is a 99% chance they are using the Spin Wing type vane. Once you figure it out you will see what I mean by getting better groups compared to rubber vanes. 

Progen. Yes, a lot of people use a different color for their cock fletch. I just used a magic marker and put a zebra stripe on that particular fletch which highlighted it without changing the flight characteristics.

Backfletch. First you might want to use like a woman’s curling iron and lightly touch the edge of the vane when it is on the shaft so that the vane will curl around the shaft. Ludmila Ahrzanikova (sp?) of the former Soviet Union and now a Dutch citizen taught me that little trick. The art of using the tape is a challenge. First you do not stretch it too much when you apply it and like John said you could use a little touch of glue to hold it. Normally the only reason that it does not stick is due to the surface area is not clean enough. Just the oily surface of your fingers could contaminate the surface area to keep it from sticking properly. 

John. Actually to keep the vanes from sticking to each other, once you fletch them just lightly powder them. The powder will eliminate all the unnecessary sticky areas and eliminate them from attaching themselves together so much. A real nuisance for sure.

Rob. Yes, you could use a shrink type tube to keep the vane down, but since Spine Wing vanes are high maintenance, you will be doing this every time you need to re-fletch. I normally had to re-fletch before every tournament and sometimes was in my hotel room repairing them at the event. I probably took it to extreme but did not want to take a chance to loose a point for a damaged vane. 

Mike. If the vane is being hit by the clicker it could be due to the clicker being too soft (most of us keep it soft so if you shoot though it, the arrow doesn’t go too far off course). If the clicker is too soft, it really will fly back out when you release the string and come out and hit the fletching. I have seen this in high speed films. You want it soft but not too soft. I have found that if I draw the arrow back with all three of my fingers ¼” below the arrow (no finger pressure against the nock) and watch the clicker click to see if it moves the plunger (the clicker will be too stiff then) or the clicker bounces upon the click (clicker is too soft) and adjust accordingly. If it is hitting the sight bar, then you can either move the sight bar in closer for now, especially if you cannot get weaker arrows.

Yes, it was Pat Burgham. He is a really super nice guy whom I have a lot of respect for. He was one of the North’s regional board members for a short period but was run out since he tried to think of the overall good of the NAA and not just his region. It got him into a lot of trouble.


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## Borja1300

Rick McKinney said:


> First are the colors. White is the softest which allows for more forgiveness if the vane hits the rest or plunger. Yellow is next, then red, blue and finally black is the stiffest.
> 
> 
> 
> Don’t forget there are two vane drags available. The light drag and standard. Usually, those with heavy poundage need to use the light drag vane. Those with lighter poundage should try the standard vane.



Hi Rick. 

I want to ask a couple of things.

According to Spin-wing instructions the drag colors variations from the leasto to the most are: 1.black and white 2.yellow 3.blue and 4.red. 
This means that the drag are not relationet with the "softness" of the vane?

How can I know if my vanes are standard or light drag? because in the paper wich comes with the vanes doesn't says anything about that. The true is that the sheet instructions is yellow and sometimes is purple. I don't know if the kind of dragness is determined by the colour of the sheet instructions.

And the last question is that this instructions says "available sizes: 1-9/16", 1-3/4", 1-3/4"*VLD*, 2", 2-3/16" and 2-13/16""

Wich means "VLD"?

thanks in advance!


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## Rick McKinney

VLD- very light drag. 

It would appear that the drag relationship to color is slightly different than the stiffness relationship. Not exactly sure why that is. However, if the instructions say it believe it. Black was a weird one for me. It seemed to be more fragile than the rest and I had all kinds of difficulties with it (just didn’t group!). Now, having said that, don’t forget that you are mainly looking for grouping and should keep ALL options open to find what gives you the best group, not what someone says or the instruction sheet tells you. I never really cared what an expert said only to gather information. All of my belief is in the arrows going into the center. If they did not go into the center it was not a good setup. 

Purple used to be for Left Handed archers. However, that might not be the case now. Not sure.


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## Borja1300

Rick McKinney said:


> Purple used to be for Left Handed archers. However, that might not be the case now. Not sure.


I'm left handed and I just noticed that the vanes the shop send me are right handed (that's why it's yellow) and I have all my arrows without vanes at the moment and I have a competition on saturday... damm!:dead:


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## c3hammer

Borja1300, I'm left handed as well and have had to shoot right handed spin wings a few times. If you have a good tune and don't have any terrible releases you won't have an interference problem.

After having watched a ton of high speed video, I've come to the conclusion that only folks with super supple fingers and very low deflection of the string and nock end of the arrow during release have issues with vane contact. Those folks also happen to be the best archers in the world most often, but folks like me with bricks for fingers tend not to have issues with vane contact very often 

Cheers,
Pete


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## Borja1300

I'll look for some old vanes and If I not find enough I'll fletch with right handed vanes :sad:


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## FV Chuck

Funny this should be a topic right now...

I started experimenting with these this past week for (get this) my 2712's off compound with a trigger release:mg:

My rationale was to get that huge shaft to be closer to spine than with standard types of fletching. I also figured that if I was going to be that far over spine I may as well have it spin absolutely as much as I could possibly get it to.I had run everything from 4" quick spin vanes to feathers to 2" blazers. I figured if I could get all the weight off the back it might get a bit closer to a somewhat forgiving shaft.

This is a setup for indoor only so far, and not for FITA....but after I've seen how well these work on the 27"s I'll try them on the smaller sets too.

So far I have to say I am VERY impressed with my first go.
First try was the yellow 1 3/4" at 2deg offset 1" down the shaft measured from the throat of the nock. Worked pretty well. My x's came up quite a bit.

I tried another setup leaving everything the same except I use an additional 1/8" offset, based on the original 2 deg setup. (yeah... I know it's a TON) and it absolutely DRILLS...so far I could not be happier about the results.

Not too worried about the parachute effect so far because we are only talking about the 20 yard game, but I imagine once I go outdoors I'll have to be reading this all over again and picking Rick's brain for pointers.

Just thought I'd toss it out there as an idea for those who are working on those larger shafts.

Chuck


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## Rick McKinney

FV Chuck. You are right on increasing the spin and drag by making the angle greater and this is great for indoor shooting. Several years ago, I used the 2312 (I think) using the 5” spin wings to win Vegas. They shot great. The difference between my shooting and yours is the compound/release vs recurve/fingers. The speed I had was probably 30-50% slower than your setup thus the 5” spin wings. Yes, when you go outdoors, you will have to make a lot of adjustments but you are on track from what I am reading here. If you have a drop away rest, the spin wings will be fantastic (no clearance issues). Just recognize the spin and drag will need to be minimal for your speed capabilities (probably the 1 9/16”, 0 degrees). Good luck!


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## ROB TAYLOR

Yeah, that K1 stuff is not really shrink tubing, but a latex that will roll out of the way to do any maintenance then right back in place to secure them. I have dinked with the spinnies a time or two and found them pretty frail. But I can see the advantage for a shooter that shoots well enough to make a difference.
-Rob


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## limbwalker

> but if you watch the top archers (medal winners) there is a 99% chance they are using the Spin Wing type vane


Yea, Rick, I noticed. But thanks for pointing that out...  ha, ha. 

If I'm ever in a position to compete for a spot on an international team again, you can bet I will test a number of things first. I sure learned a lot between '04 and '06.

Incidentally, my top double-70 score was shot with yellow 1 9/16" spin wings on a windy Texas A&M field. So I have experienced some success with them. I've just not had enough important events for myself in the past 3 years to worry about spinnies vs. vanes. I hope I'm in the position to consider that again someday.

Rick, can you provide any guidelines for archers to use when considering what color spin wing? What I mean by that is - as you know - initial speed isn't the only thing to consider. Arrow weight X speed is what creates speed downrange, so my 370 grain arrows traveling 205 fps. may need a totally different vane than someone else's 330 grain arrow starting out at the same speed. My guess is that a heavier arrow could overcome the drag downrange better and thereby benefit from a little larger vane? 

John.


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## Jason22

Is there a photo/diagram of the correct nock rotation when using spin wings with a standard flipper rest and button? 

The back of the spin wing package insert shows rotation so the bottom fletch is very close to the rest, with the greater gap being between the top fletch and the button... but when I did this I was having contact issues on the bottom fletch since every fletch in that position was creased. (1.75" elites with 0 offset) I rotated the nock slightly and changed to standard 1.75" spin wings but haven't tested with lipstick yet.


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## Rick McKinney

John. I hope you know I was not pointing the finger at you about spin wings vs the rubber fletch.  I watched Jay Barrs win the 1988 Olympic Gold with the Spin Wings and then he reached a very nice financial agreement with AAE. He was able to get them to work good by using a major helical on the shaft. So it can be done. Although Jay’s scores dropped some after the Games, I attributed more of that to lack of drive and training. After all, what else is there once you become the Individual Olympic Gold Medalist?  

As for determining what drag or what length of vane to use, as I mentioned above the heavier arrows (therefore a bit slower) will need a longer vane. When I used the old A/C 1508 arrow which weighed about the same as the 2114, I used the 2 13/16” vane. Did it work? You bet! I tied my 345 at 50 meters with them and averaged near 1325 that year with them. So…they did work well. Since the arrow was just about traveling near 205 to 210 (similar to the current x10) that length of vane was a good stable one. When the ace was brought out in 1988 Richard Carella was asked by Jim Easton to help him develop a vane that would work better for the faster arrow, hence the VLD 1 ¾” and 1 9/16” vane. Just think of a jet. The bigger the plane, the slower and the larger the wing span. The faster the jet, the smaller the wing span needed. Now...unfortunately I have not taken the time to determine at what speed do you need to switch. 

2222. Actually the package is a good start. And you were right to tweak the nock to eliminate the creasing. Remember, that all recommendations are just a starting point for the average person (and there aren't any of them around that I know of).  Then you have to tweak until it works for you.


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## limbwalker

> I hope you know I was not pointing the finger at you about spin wings vs the rubber fletch.


Absolutely I do. I just couldn't pass on the opportunity to point out the irony. That's all.  Sick sense of humor, I know... 

As for the vanes, I took GT's recommendation :mg: a while ago and put them on with the most helical that my Bitz. will accomodate. Seem to work well so long as I do my part. 

With arrows as heavy as mine, it's hard to imagine them starting to parachute at even the longest distances. So I'm thinking that I could get by with a larger vane.

Thanks again Rick.

John.


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## LoveMyHoyt

Thanks Rick for sharing all this with us. I've gotten my SW's from Range O Matic and I had heard about the color coding (although the person didn't know the specifics). I asked the people at Range O Matic about it and they said they were all the same!! So I've been using red (because they don't make pink  ) Also, when I got the last package of SW's, - same size, etc. the tape was a little different from the previous package. Am I going to be messing things up because I replace one of the wider taped vanes with the narrow tape? 
I discovered about turning the nocks after I sheared off a couple vanes:embarres: I also read somewhere about putting them on the other way (so they sort of curl around the arrow) and then folding them back on themselves. The ones I've done this way don't seem to fly/group any differently, but I do seem to have better clearance with them.
Thanks for all your help.

Angie
Hoyt Avalon Plus Riser/ Gold Medalist Carbonplus limbs / 30# 70"
27 1/2 " Redline 1000 arrows with 2 3/16 spinwing vanes
(picture a tall, "mature", wimpy lady who can't afford the new stuff :wave3: )


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## Borja1300

Rick,

althought you talk about arrow speed in order to choose the size of the vane, you don't make any mention to the arrow lenght.

So, this means that the arrow lenght is not an important factor at the time to choose a specific vane size?

By the way, I shoot with 36#(winex 38#) at fingers and 27" arrow length so I supose 1-3/4" is correct or I might choice 2-3/16"? (here in spain they only sell 1-9/16", 1-3/4" normal and 2-3/16")


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## gumibears

interestingly enough for the spinwing elites that i use on my 725 mckinneys, the 6th instructions says that "the drag is all the same for all colors" and that "I suggest using a different color for the (index?) vane". However I just stick to one color.


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## jmvargas

i only use one color spinwings....i place a dot using a yellow or white marking pen on the index sw when i use the dark colored(black or blue) sw and a regular black pentel pen when i use the light colored(yellow or white) sw....


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## engtee

Rick,
It long overdue that you write a sequel to your book. Information pertaining to your testing of equipment, over the years, could comprise multiple chapters, and the equipment section of the first book certainly needs updating. I am sure that most of the readers here would like to see another volume. Information, such as this thread is almost impossible to come by and I think a volume with this sort of guidance will be extremely beneficial to a lot of archers.


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## Rick McKinney

borja1300. I am sure there is some relationship with length of arrow. However, the speed and clearance will be more the issue. Now, just remember to test them all if you can afford to and like I said, get some friends to join in the experiement so you can split the costs. You will be amazed when you find that magic set up.


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## cityhic

*spinwings and clicker*

Dear Doctor Rick McK,
I just bought a W&W Inno and shoot spinwings, but they keep getting ripped off because it is hitting something on the bow which I suspect is the clicker. BTW, my clicker has a slight bend in the arm. I was wondering if I should switch to a straight clicker or not. Which clicker do you recommend with the Inno? If I am way off base with my self diagnosis please let me know.


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## Acehero

I used to have terrible clearance issues with my spinwings. The hen fletch would hit something on almost every shot. The lipstick test showed it was the button, but no amount of nock rotation or changing anything in the setup would fix it. Then one day i realised I was'nt keeping my drawing wrist straight - i was kinking it a bit to follow my jaw line. When i straightened the wrist, my loose got much better, the clearance problems vanished never to return and my fita pb went from 1100 to 1200 in a week! So maybe the clearance problem could be on your loose, like mine was?


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## Rick McKinney

gumibears. Drag is based on the flexibility of the vane. Thus, if it is softer or stiffer, it definitely will have a drag difference. Maybe the angles are identical but you can be sure this changes aerodynamically in flight. 

jmvargas. Good idea! 

engtee. Although I would love to write another book, my time is very limited right now. Maybe in a few years….

cityhic. There could be a few things to look for. First, Acehero has a good point. If you have a serious form issue, then it can cause some really weird action from you arrows. Even if you are seriously creating torque in your grip, you may get this rip. However, if it is not your form, then make sure you have the right spined arrows. If they are way weak or way stiff, you may get rips as well. Another thing to check is your tune. If you plunger is way out or way in from where it should be, this could cause some major rip.


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## LoveMyHoyt

cityhic said:


> Dear Doctor Rick McK,
> I just bought a W&W Inno and shoot spinwings, but they keep getting ripped off because it is hitting something on the bow which I suspect is the clicker. BTW, my clicker has a slight bend in the arm. I was wondering if I should switch to a straight clicker or not. Which clicker do you recommend with the Inno? If I am way off base with my self diagnosis please let me know.


Cityhic--
I had the same problem - also thought it was the clicker. Changed clickers - problem didn't go away. Turns out it was the plunger that was ripping them off. I had just changed to arrows that were a little skinnier so I had to raise my arrow rest (duh). That's when I also realized that I had to turn the nock for better clearance. No problems now.
Angie


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## s26286603

Ok so im pretty new to the sport say ,7 months on the more technical side, but first what i can see is that people are confused about the type of spine wings they have, there are two types of spin wings, elites and originals the difference being that the elites are put on straight whilst the originals as an offset to get the required spin. Being a final year mechanical engineer, i can only see that the drag that affects arrow flight of the differnt coloured spin wings is that of the rotational component. I believe that the spin wings are designed in such a way as to reduce the affect of the rotational airflow over the vane itself.

So i believed that the extra performance gained was not warrented by the price i pay, living in South Africa, everything is expensive and i pay R150 or $20 for a pack. So i made my own fletches using coloured transparincy and made a punch for the fletches, i tried them out and the performance was in fact better or at times the same, i attached these vanes the same way you would spin wings, but i believe by attaching the vane in such a manner that the airflow flows over easier than its current configuration i can get better performance.


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## Joe T

s26286603 said:


> So i made my own fletches using coloured transparincy and made a punch for the fletches, i tried them out and the performance was in fact better or at times the same, i attached these vanes the same way you would spin wings, but i believe by attaching the vane in such a manner that the airflow flows over easier than its current configuration i can get better performance.


This type of fletching was sold by a Dutch? company under the name "Trojan". They were very popular in the UK about 15 years ago. Haven't seen any for years (though I think I still have some somewhere).


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## TER

s26286603 said:


> elites and originals the difference being that the elites are put on straight whilst the originals as an offset to get the required spin.


No, both can be put on straight, the difference between Original and Elites are the shapes of their curves.


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## s26286603

to Joe T

I only found this out after i had tested them and I even had an ex South African team member ask me for a couple, i mean i can buy a sheet for R1 and make 50! And they work, unfortunately durring the testing at distance my limbs started to twist and the one bent more than the other, but ill be shooting distance soon as i just bought some new limbs. But the jig i made is so simple to make, and the nice thing is i can chose my own colours

I am aware that the elite and originals can both be put on straight, in fact another National archer advised me to put my originals on straight to give tighter groups, i did not do it as i did not have the cash to experiment.


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## SidneyArcher

s26286603 said:


> So i made my own fletches using coloured transparincy and made a punch for the fletches, i tried them out and the performance was in fact better or at times the same, i attached these vanes the same way you would spin wings, but i believe by attaching the vane in such a manner that the airflow flows over easier than its current configuration i can get better performance.


This is a very good idea. I would love to see pictures of your homemade vanes, how you made the jig. That is if you feel like sharing you secret.


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## airwolfipsc

Back when I use to shoot, I remember that different colors shot different groups..I wind up with Yellow and Blue!


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## pencarrow

After an inquiry to Range-O-Matic, I recieved this reply.

" Hi Fritz,

There is always an active discussion about Spin-Wings. 
In the original tests many years ago it was found the different colors grouped differently at longer distances. It was thought to be because of the different colors causing a different drag. There was no other explanation. I was not involved with any of the tests.
In recent tests with a shooting machine indoors it was found the colors shot the same. More tests are being conducted. When all tests are completed the results will be posted my web site.
By the way are you the same Fritz that goes by Pencarrow on the Archery Talk Forum?

Best Regards,

Bob Geno
Range-O-Matic
Phone: 586-749-8622
Fax: 586-749-6721
[email protected]"


End of story
Fritz


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## s26286603

Sure thing sidneyarcher, i will try and post some pics as soon as possible.

That is an interesting reply, and i would think that they group the same if the fletches are put at the same angle of attack. So in other words one only has to play with the angle of attack to get optimum performance ? , my home made vanes are sounding really good at the moment.


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## SidneyArcher

Please correct me if I am wrong, but is it safe to say that Kurly Vanes are just another brand of spin wings. If so what are the pros and cons? Does the color make any differance with them?


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## Joe T

s26286603 said:


> Sure thing sidneyarcher, i will try and post some pics as soon as possible.
> 
> That is an interesting reply, and i would think that they group the same if the fletches are put at the same angle of attack. So in other words one only has to play with the angle of attack to get optimum performance ? , my home made vanes are sounding really good at the moment.


With flat vanes tangential to the shaft attaching them with an offset should make no difference - you could see this as an advantage.

Next step is to apply curling tongs to create your own improved K vanes


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## s26286603

Actually putting a straight vane on an offset does kind of "kurl" the vane. Do this for an experiment, take a piece of paper about the size of a vane, then put it on a pen at an ofset and whilst holding the paper in place look down the pen. It kind of bends the fletch over the arrow, im experimenting at the moment with my new limbs, just not too sure on the arrows Got some carbon impacts ultra fast oranges. we shall see Sidney archer trying to get pics up. Hmmm curling iron, could be on to something, got to make another jig............


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## Joe T

s26286603 said:


> Actually putting a straight vane on an offset does kind of "kurl" the vane. Do this for an experiment, take a piece of paper about the size of a vane, then put it on a pen at an ofset and whilst holding the paper in place look down the pen. It kind of bends the fletch over the arrow, im experimenting at the moment with my new limbs, just not too sure on the arrows Got some carbon impacts ultra fast oranges. we shall see Sidney archer trying to get pics up. Hmmm curling iron, could be on to something, got to make another jig............


Um Yes - a helical flat plastic tangential fletching. New idea! Into territory marked "here be dragons". I await the test results with interest


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## Rick McKinney

For those who feel that there is no drag difference that is fine. However, when you change the color pigmentation of this material it does change the flexural dynamics. Especially down range. If you disagree, please feel free to do so as I disagree with you. My personal experience and Richard Carella’s opinion was that there was a difference due to color. If the vane is a bit softer then it just might open up a little more than the slightly stiffer color, thus causing a difference in drag.

As far as putting straight vanes at a sharp angle to get them to act similar to the Spin Wing. I am sure it is fine. However, if it was as good as the Spin Wing, then why doesn’t the top archer do it? It doesn’t take a brain surgeon or a rocket scientist to figure out if one performs better than the otherand I am sure they have tried it! The simple techniques as I have discussed should give a big percentage of archers a better grouping pattern than they have with straight type vanes. 

For those of you who think I am sponsored by Spin Wings, I am not. I didn’t even know the guy’s name until pencarrow posted it here on this thread. I have not talked with him that I am aware of. I am just giving you my take on this little item that appears to be the premier vane for recurve finger shooters for near 20 years and my assessment.


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## pencarrow

Rick: I am totaly with you on this, You have helped me so much, to bad it comes so late in my life. I am shooting against Randall now.
I took the dozen arrows that I used at COS this year, which was the subject of conversation, that started this thread. Cartel Triple 1100s FlexFletch 150 vanes, set with as much off-set as I could get, the shafts are only 4.44mm, so I could only get just under 2dg. Stripped of the vanes and refletched with spinwing white standard 1 1/16" vanes with no off-set, 6 of the 12. Then went to the range and shot for 3 hours @ 70M. Some ends I shot random others as sets. WOW what a difference, except for some "pilot errors" the spinnies averaged 4 points higher per end. I will accept having to do some repairs to gain the help of 24 points a round. Of course when "some people " are getting all 10s & an occasional 9, they don't need the help, LOL
With the FF vanes I was getting some parachuting @ 70M as the arrows were losing speed, especially if there was any wind. None with the spinnies. 
What Rick said about nock placement is spot on. I had tested for clearance issues & thought it was not a problem.When I set the hen on top, as he suggested the flight was perfect.
Give them a try.
Now I really wish I could go to COS this year, I have some scores to settle.
Cheers
Fritz 
__________________


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## s26286603

Unfortunately spin wings are way to expensive for a student archer as my self and i think they are too expensive in general, those guys are probably making probably a huge profit? But that is life when you chose a unique sport, thanks rick for your input, i have learnt alot, i will try some spin vanes and put them up against my home made ones again using your tips. at the moment i think these vanes are excelent for training of new archers and they work well and they are cheap, SidneyArcher, i will draw the jig up on solid works for you to get a rough idea and then post it.


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## pbzmag

SidneyArcher said:


> Please correct me if I am wrong, but is it safe to say that Kurly Vanes are just another brand of spin wings. If so what are the pros and cons? Does the color make any differance with them?


Basically the same but Kurley Vanes comes in a wider range of colors. Altservices does not state that the colors are for different drag. I'm currently on my second color combo and did notice a difference between the bi-color and the day-glows. The day-glows did tend to separate from the tape more easily as the texture was more of a powder feel.


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## SidneyArcher

pbzmag said:


> Basically the same but Kurley Vanes comes in a wider range of colors. Altservices does not state that the colors are for different drag. I'm currently on my second color combo and did notice a difference between the bi-color and the day-glows. The day-glows did tend to separate from the tape more easily as the texture was more of a powder feel.



Thanks for the input. I belive they offer some clear vanes. Has anyone tried them?


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## Jason22

Last night I refletched some arrows and could definitely feel a difference in stiffness between blue and white spinwings. But the blue ones were made a long time ago, so they may have changed.

The spin-wing package I have lists colors from least drag to most drag as follows:
1 - Black and white, = weakest, least drag
2 - Yellow
3 - Blue
4 - Red = stiffest, most drag

I thought black was the stiffest color, but the package reads differently so I'm not sure which is correct.


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## Jason22

SidneyArcher said:


> Thanks for the input. I belive they offer some clear vanes. Has anyone tried them?


I bought 3 packs of clear kurly vanes but never used them. If anyone wants to give them a try shoot me a PM.


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## massman

*My testing*

If this has already been covered I apologize..........I'd been considering stripping my X10's and installing FlexFletch vanes because I never liked how the edge of the Kurlyvanes or Spinwings would roll up off of the tape. I was toying with ways to curl the vane to lay flat along the curve of the shaft when I read in this thread of "ironing" the vane to curl it...So I rummaged through my old Radio Control airplane building equipment to find my "TopFlite Trim tape sealing iron". It has an ironing foot app. 1" long and 3/8" wide. After purchasing some 2" Spinwings in white, I've been experimenting with techniques to iron the edge of the vane. Initially I fletched all 3 vanes and then ironed the edges. This worked but you had to be very careful not to iron the adjacent vane as this would deform the vane. I've found for me that the safest way is to iron each vane as it is applied. Then you need to only be really careful on only one vane. The iron is good because of its' size and it has a HI and a LO heat setting. You can also adjust the ironing foot in and out of the heater to refine the heat range you wish to use.

Thanks for this tidbit. Planning now to shoot the 2" Spinwings this coming outdoor season.

BEST Reagrds,

Tom


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## Sky Warrior

Hi Rick,
Thanks for the info. What do you recommend for Indoor? Which vanes for Hippo and MKII? I am shooting the MKII725 around 215 fps and full length hippos at 205 fps.

Thanks!


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## lost n mi

are these good for broadheads?


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## Rick McKinney

Right now I am playing with my "skinny McKinney's" using a 1 3/4" Spin Wing. I have them at 5 degrees plus which is relatively sharp but I figured that it just might work since I am only shooting 18 meters. This would never work long distance, but it does work at close distance. For my Hippos I have used 4" feathers with a sharp helical. The drag keeps them stable. 

I am surprised that you are only getting 10 fps more out of the McKinney's. The shaft weight should have you shooting much faster with the McKinney's but you could have added weight, various drags, etc....




Sky Warrior said:


> Hi Rick,
> Thanks for the info. What do you recommend for Indoor? Which vanes for Hippo and MKII? I am shooting the MKII725 around 215 fps and full length hippos at 205 fps.
> 
> Thanks!


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## stodrette

*And here's the rub.....*



2222 said:


> Last night I refletched some arrows and could definitely feel a difference in stiffness between blue and white spinwings. But the blue ones were made a long time ago, so they may have changed.
> 
> The spin-wing package I have lists colors from least drag to most drag as follows:
> 1 - Black and white, = weakest, least drag
> 2 - Yellow
> 3 - Blue
> 4 - Red = _stiffest, most drag_
> 
> I thought black was the _stiffest color_, but the package reads differently so I'm not sure which is correct.


Stiffness may be a component of drag but it is not necessarily THE only component. Black may have felt the stiffest, but has the least drag with the White, at least as the package states. If you were to look up information on drag, it will "spin" your head, as it is incredibly technical...try googling drag


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## introverted

lost n mi said:


> are these good for broadheads?


they actually have a spin wing vane designated for hunters

check it out

http://www.lancasterarchery.com/product_info.php?cPath=421_78_287&products_id=1810

i used to use the 4 inch on my indoor arrows, and i've heard some good things about folks using them on hunting arrows


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## Jason22

In case anyone was wondering, the ELITE spin wings and regular or classic spin wings are cut the identical size, with a different shaped curl in them. You can lay one vane on top of the other, flatten them out and they are identical. The elites just have a deeper curl that is at a greater angle than the classics. This creates a wider path that the vane travels in and therefore could be more difficult to clear than classic spin wings set at the same offset. 

I have had great results with Elites indoors, but was having contact issues before I trimmed my rest. I haven't tested Elites since then.

One more thing of interest, the spin wing shape is identical to those made in the late 80's. I still have some old ones and did a comparison. The material felt slightly different, but that could be due to aging.


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## inferno nexus

SidneyArcher said:


> Thanks for the input. I belive they offer some clear vanes. Has anyone tried them?


i use the 40 mm kurlies on ACE's. Because they are smaller than the 45mm spin wings, they dont get chewed off or crumpled as easily(i used about 2 packs last year), but may not provide sufficient stabilization of the arrow (not sire about that since i have not used spin wings before). 

The black lining tape isnt as good, so i use the tape that comes with spin wings...


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## lost n mi

introverted said:


> they actually have a spin wing vane designated for hunters
> 
> check it out
> 
> http://www.lancasterarchery.com/product_info.php?cPath=421_78_287&products_id=1810
> 
> i used to use the 4 inch on my indoor arrows, and i've heard some good things about folks using them on hunting arrows


thank you !


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## azleonhart

Originally Posted by *Rick McKinney*:
"*White* is the softest which allows for more forgiveness if the vane hits the rest or plunger. *Yellow* is next, then *red*, *blue* and finally *black* is the stiffest."

Hi Rick, thanks for your help on the Spin Wings. A lot of new things i have learnt.. among the colors you have stated, there is however one that most of us don't know much about, which is Metallic Green. May i ask where does this color stand on the stiff/soft list, and why is it not really a popular color selection?
Maybe i'll come back to my Spin Wings, once i am done with my K-Vanes/Super Flonite Spin(the one Park Kyung-Mo's currently using).. Have you tried any, Rick? I don't mean to hijack the thread, but I am just curious..


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## Rick McKinney

azleonhart said:


> Hi Rick, thanks for your help on the Spin Wings. A lot of new things i have learnt.. among the colors you have stated, there is however one that most of us don't know much about, which is Metallic Green. May i ask where does this color stand on the stiff/soft list, and why is it not really a popular color selection?
> Maybe i'll come back to my Spin Wings, once i am done with my K-Vanes/Super Flonite Spin(the one Park Kyung-Mo's currently using).. Have you tried any, Rick? I don't mean to hijack the thread, but I am just curious..



Yes, some very interesting comments made here about various items. First is the black material. I had always presumed it was stiffer than the rest and I do recall Dick telling me that it was stiffer, but it may have been changed to a softer material. I do believe that this material is a bit more fragile than the others. It always broke down faster than most of the other colors. However, Vic Wunderle used them for years and had a lot success with them. 

As for the metallic green ones. I did play with them but do not recall the flex level of them. They were a bit on the fragile side too if I remember correctly. I mainly used the white because they were so consistent over the course of using them. Even when they were scraggly looking, they performed exceptionally well. Next, I used the yellow because they were fairly decent as well. I played with the blue, red and black and did not like them due to either their unforgiving performance or their fragile side. 

During this period I shot a lot of arrows everyday and competed in a lot of tournaments. I really did not have a lot of time to spend on repairing my vanes nor would I accept an unforgiving fletch. That is why I did not shoot the K-vanes which had a similar curvature as the Spin Wing, but would last longer since they were made of plastic and not mylar. However, they did break and they were more unforgiving. I know a lot of people who liked them but again, I did not see any top elite archer using them to win.


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## limbwalker

Rick, since you have about 1000 times more experience with these vanes than I do, here's a question for you...

One thing I always worried about with spin wings was the affect of "bent" or "creased" vanes on arrow flight. What I mean by that is you can have 6 perfectly fletched arrows with spinnies, and after three ends 3 of those have at least one vane with a bend or crease from arrow impacts. A lot of the time, this goes unnoticed in an archer's quiver. Likewise, you can easily curl a fletched arrow more or less than normal...

So to me, all that seems to lead to inconsistent drag and performance once the arrows get banged around in normal use...

With vanes such as the Flex-fletch or the AAE plastifletch Max that I now use, once they are fletched, they pretty well maintain the same angle and shape for the duration...

I often worried about that fragile nature of the spin wings - not because of re-fletching often, which is simple enough, but because of the potential affect on drag it may have.

Your thoughts?

John.


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## Rick McKinney

John…a great question.. I know that many people worry about the performance of the vane when it gets creased, but my experience has shown no difference in performance. I shot one national championships that even had two and a half vanes on my arrows and they still were going in the middle. One archer saw my arrows and said, “Are you using your practice arrows here?” (I was on the practice field at the time warming up before the round began). I mean these spin wings were so mangled that if I didn’t have the confidence in them I would never have thought to use them. However, they were working so good and I really didn’t want to take the time to refletch them. I told the guy they were the arrows I would use at the competition. He did not believe me. I told him to come to target one and see for himself. He did and just walked away shaking his head. I won by the way.  

There are some things that I do to make sure the vanes are working as best as they can. First, when I pull my arrows from the target, I always inspect the nock ears, spin the shaft and then run my thumb down the taped edge on all three vanes. This insures that there is no loose part that might fly up when I shoot it and then it will fly like crap and end up in the grass…. I only did that once!  Next I take the vanes and wrap them around the shaft opposite as the lay. This gets them close to being where they originally should be. These little steps insure that the vanes, nock and shaft is in working order. These simple little items takes so little time and you can train yourself to do it every time you pull your arrows that it becomes a good habit and eliminates that one freaky shot that costs you a tournament. 

I remember when I first used mylar vanes (MyroVanes by Shig Honda). Dick Tone told Jay Barrs that he should not use the vanes because they were inconsistent. He showed Jay that the vanes when flexed made a different sound, thus each was different in flex and consistency. Jay’s simple little question was quite cute. He asked Dick, “Well if they are so inconsistent then why does Rick shoot so well with them?” Dick told him, “I haven’t figured that out yet!” Mind you, I had just shot a 345 at 50 meters setting a new world record at the time! :wink: The reason I bring this up is that no matter what it looks like on paper, no matter what the reasoning you use to question the consistency or quality of the potential of the product, you will only know if it works by testing it! Put it through all kinds of tests so that you know how it works. If it goes in the center, it works! No matter if it is logical or not!


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## limbwalker

> If it goes in the center, it works! No matter if it is logical or not!


Amen brother... Too many folks analyze things far too often I think...

Could you elaborate on this comment? :



> Next I take the vanes and wrap them around the shaft opposite as the lay. This gets them close to being where they originally should be.


I think I know what you mean, but I can't be sure. When I shot spinnies, I made a habit of "straightening" vanes by placing my fingers on the vanes and rotating the arrow - essentially flattening the vanes against the shaft as the arrow rotated. Then of course when I would release the vanes they would spring back to their curled shape. I think this is what you mean. 

A person could easily crease a vane by rotating the arrow the other direction and pressing the base of the vane against the tape - resulting in a highly curled, high drag vane. 

John.


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## pencarrow

I'm still confused ( my natural state ). Do you spin them with the curl or against it ? Rick, I finally read your book, WOW:thumbs_up. John, when are you going to write one?:wink::wink:

Fritz


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## Rick McKinney

John. You are correct. You go the opposite direction as the actual curl. 

Thanks Pencarrow, glad you liked it.


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## Vittorio

Rick McKinney said:


> ..... That is why I did not shoot the K-vanes which had a similar curvature as the Spin Wing, but would last longer since they were made of plastic and not mylar. However, they did break and they were more unforgiving. I know a lot of people who liked them but again, I did not see any top elite archer using them to win.


Jang Yong Ho in the past and Park Kyung Mo even in 2008 are the most famous archers using K-Spin vanes, as far as I know.
Agree they are very fragile, and this is the major drawback they have. But as far as performancies are concerned, they have shown to work well up and over 680 & 1360 ... 

There is a new Italian manufacturer making a new shape of curled vanes, called Elivanes. They have a much lower profile and elongated shape in comparison to SW. No pictures yet on their website.
http://www.elivanes.it/


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## archangel86

Vittorio said:


> There is a new Italian manufacturer making a new shape of curled vanes, called Elivanes. They have a much lower profile and elongated shape in comparison to SW. No pictures yet on their website.
> http://www.elivanes.it/


Would these so happen to be the vanes some of the archers were using at Nimes? More specifically the ones that had Fiberbow printed on the vanes?


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## Vittorio

archangel86 said:


> Would these so happen to be the vanes some of the archers were using at Nimes? More specifically the ones that had Fiberbow printed on the vanes?


Manufacturer can print any logo or design on the vanes, so I suppose they were Elivanes .


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## Regius

Vittorio said:


> Manufacturer can print any logo or design on the vanes, so I suppose they were Elivanes .


Yes is Elivanes production. Here in Italy a lot of Archers use it.


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## pilotmill

*Older vanes*

I had some older spinwings from a LONG time ago and mine were brittle from age. So the comment on the older spins getting brittle is probably right. I found playing with nock position is really critical for my grouping, probably a clearence thing, not enough to make the arrow wobble enough to see but affecting it enough to make the group open up, I am sure to mark my nock position on the shafts. Thanks to Rick and Vittorio for great insight as to all, and did he say FLEXURAL, wow, we are techy. Thanks again, Garrie.


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## Huntmaster

Now this is an interesting turn, considering this thread was in progress as this happened.

My daughter just got in some yellow spin wings. Eager to try them out, the shafts were preped and the vanes went on this morning.

Miranda has been excited to try these yellow vanes, as the blue ones she was given didn't group as well, but were put on with a slight offset. I bought a Beiter tool to mark them with, and away she went.

One hour later, she shoots the first end of 8 arrows at the target. Upon retreval, she discovered that one of the vanes had been broken length wise completely in half. Another had been chipped on the rear side, and split on the front edge. I'm not exadurating at all. I will be happy to take a pic of the vanes if needed.

This is the first flight these arrows have taken. Shot once, and there are already destroyed vanes. She went back to her Mini FITA's and is going to leave these for the time being.

It's not like these vanes are old or anything. The range was about 65 degrees, and we just got them in the mail yesterday. 

Anyone else had this kind of problem?


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## Jason22

Huntmaster said:


> Now this is an interesting turn, considering this thread was in progress as this happened.
> 
> My daughter just got in some yellow spin wings. Eager to try them out, the shafts were preped and the vanes went on this morning.
> 
> Miranda has been excited to try these yellow vanes, as the blue ones she was given didn't group as well, but were put on with a slight offset. I bought a Beiter tool to mark them with, and away she went.
> 
> One hour later, she shoots the first end of 8 arrows at the target. Upon retreval, she discovered that one of the vanes had been broken length wise completely in half. Another had been chipped on the rear side, and split on the front edge. I'm not exadurating at all. I will be happy to take a pic of the vanes if needed.
> 
> This is the first flight these arrows have taken. Shot once, and there are already destroyed vanes. She went back to her Mini FITA's and is going to leave these for the time being.
> 
> It's not like these vanes are old or anything. The range was about 65 degrees, and we just got them in the mail yesterday.
> 
> Anyone else had this kind of problem?


Yes. Check Nock rotation, Arrow rest/button clearance, Tuning, Arrow spine

I had a perfectly tuned bow with ACE's and spin wings. When I put on stiffer limbs I sheared off or split the lower vane on every single arrow. The arrows were just too weak and weren't clearing properly. It sounds like you've got clearance issues that need to be resolved. Changing to a vane that can take the punishment better won't necessarily fix the clearance issue.


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## Huntmaster

2222 said:


> Yes. Check Nock rotation, Arrow rest/button clearance, Tuning, Arrow spine
> 
> I had a perfectly tuned bow with ACE's and spin wings. When I put on stiffer limbs I sheared off or split the lower vane on every single arrow. The arrows were just too weak and weren't clearing properly. It sounds like you've got clearance issues that need to be resolved. Changing to a vane that can take the punishment better won't necessarily fix the clearance issue.


No, the pieces were found under the arrows at the target. They were hit, possibly the latter one hitting the first one sheering it in half. The one that is split also has a chunk gone out of the rear of it, where it was obviously hit by yet another arrow.....there's no chance of the rear of the vane (after the shape of the vane starts back toward the arrow) being taken off by the rest. Not to mention they are two completely different vanes, one being the nock vane.


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## Acehero

If one arrow had struck the vanes of another in the target (good shooting by the way!) then some damage may be expected, but usually the vanes just crease or bend. I've had in the past lots of vanes damaged in the way you describe by clearance issues. One time during the very first end at 90m of a competition I looked through my spotting scope to see one of my blue spinnies stuck to the middle of the target face! It had been partially pulled off by contact on my bow but had stuck to the arrow all the way down and finally dislodged when the arrow struck the target. Shame I couldnt score the vane, as it was stuck in the 9 ring while the arrow was an 8 or 7  It would happen quite often that I'd find torn bits half way down the range or even at the base of the boss. Despite lots of fiddling, my clearance problems only vanished for good when I improved my release and form. I dont believe its a fault of the vanes, as I think any sort of clearance issues with plastic vanes would be far less forgiving (though they probably wouldnt get damaged so much).


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## Vittorio

Few comments about SW:

1) Drag is really different depending on colors, and this has been tested by Michele several times. 90 mt shows the difference, up to 10 inches from white to red with 50 pounds recurve , and so you will never see it with a shooting machine indoor with a compound bow , but you can imagine how much the drag difference can be with around 36 pounds at 90 mt... 
2) Cross wind sensitivity is quite different depending from color, it means the different colors are flexing and reacting differently under cross wind condition, giving very different results.
3) Black is very fragile and breaks easily, Blue and Red are very strong 
4) they are a good indicators for clearance probelms, as you will immediately see dents or bends on vanes in that case
5) bi-adhesive tape provided in the last years is terrible and factory should change back to the original, as the case of vanes leaving the arrow during flight is unfortunately quite common. Do not use it, and try to find the old one in the market, or use Bohning tape or the Kurly vanes tape. If you are really forced to use the original SW tape, some rings of the fixing tape in front and behind are a must to give you some tentive safety, and check constantly your vanes to see if they are still were they had to be...


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## Huntmaster

Acehero said:


> If one arrow had struck the vanes of another in the target (good shooting by the way!) then some damage may be expected, but usually the vanes just crease or bend.


That's been my personal experience with kurly vanes, but these were definately hit.

Left is the sheered one, center could be the culprate of the first with the back of another vane damaged, and the right one is what everything else looks like.


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## Jason22

Since we're talking about damaging vanes via contact with bow vs. impact with arrow at target, I figured I'd post this photo. This is more of a general comment than a reply to Huntmaster, though it may apply.

The 4 left arrows had vanes damaged due to weak arrow shaft, vane was making hard contact with arrow rest. I couldn't have rotated the nocks further, because the top vane would have contacted the plunger if I did. Bow was perfectly tuned and vanes cleared before increasing draw weight by 4#. Far right arrow is due to impact at target. It can be difficult to tell by just looking at the vane where the damage occurs if you're shooting a single spot. If it's happening on the same position vane then it's more likely to be a contact issue, if it's happening on random vanes, it's more likely to be impacts at the target. If you inspect arrows after every end, you should be able to figure it out very quickly.

Also, as I increase poundage/fps, I seem to have less creases and more destroyed spin wings. At 210-225fps even slightly damaged vanes seem to quickly destroy themselves in flight. Though I was still able to shoot a very good score at 18m with those torn up arrows above - who knew?


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## JDT_Dad

Huntmaster said:


> That's been my personal experience with kurly vanes, but these were definately hit.
> 
> Left is the sheered one, center could be the culprate of the first with the back of another vane damaged, and the right one is what everything else looks like.


I hate to say it, but that looks pretty normal to me. If your groups are tight, (and I know your daughters are tight) arrows will be hitting one another and you will damage the wings. 

Here are four arrows from my daughters quiver I will have to fix tomorrow. All the damage was caused by arrows contacting other arrows in the backstop. As unbelievable as it may seem, all the damaged arrows group very nicely, and in a pinch, could be shot (indoors) for score.


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## Landed in AZ

JDT_Dad said:


> I hate to say it, but that looks pretty normal to me. If your groups are tight, (and I know your daughters are tight) arrows will be hitting one another and you will damage the wings.
> 
> Here are four arrows from my daughters quiver I will have to fix tomorrow. All the damage was caused by arrows contacting other arrows in the backstop. As unbelievable as it may seem, all the damaged arrows group very nicely, and in a pinch, could be shot (indoors) for score.


I think Huntmaster's point is why bother? If her vanes group just as well if not better, why risk shooting an arrow that the vane is damaged or may come off. We just switched this year to vanes and even though I suggested we might try spin wings again I don't think that will happen (since I got one of those looks). I think we have had to replace three vanes in a year. We replaced spin wings constantly, so aside from saving money it has saved points too.


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## Duss

*About 2222's photo*

Concerning the damage on Spin Wings. It would be interesting to examine more precisely the type and location of the damage.

You could have damage from two origins :
- impact damage from tight groupings
- impact damage from hitting the arrow rest or button upon launch (clearance or nock orientation problem)

From 2222's photo, the Beiter asymmetrical nocks tell us better the orientation of the fletching. In that case, it looks as if the damaged wing always is in the same orientation, indicating a rest or button problem, more than a grouping hit.

Rotating the nocks might help. It could then improve groupings, and THEN you will complain about "grouping breakages" :wink:

I became aware of that type of problem recently, when I saw more creasings and breakages on my Spin Wings. The creases were so much identical and in the same orientation that it became apparent that the cause was more of the clearance type


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## JDT_Dad

Landed in AZ said:


> I think Huntmaster's point is why bother? If her vanes group just as well if not better, why risk shooting an arrow that the vane is damaged or may come off. We just switched this year to vanes and even though I suggested we might try spin wings again I don't think that will happen (since I got one of those looks). I think we have had to replace three vanes in a year. We replaced spin wings constantly, so aside from saving money it has saved points too.


We seem to have had much better experience with the wings vs vanes than some folks. For us, the groups were much tighter and arrows stabilized much more quickly with the wings vs the vanes. Spin wing maintenance isn't all that difficult, and it doesn't take much time, (at least that is what I keep telling myself). 

That said, If we could find a vane which performed just a well as the wings, I would suggest my daughter try them, but then again, I would probably get "one of those looks" too!

As they say, your mileage may vary!


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## Huntmaster

Now for the rest of the story - she was indoors at 20 yds, shooting a single 40cm spot, and on a 290ish pace most of the day. Yes, the groups were tight. After the first end (and resulting dammage), she went back to her other arrows with Mini FITA's (same arrow in fact), which she's been shooting for over a year wtihout damage. We'll re-fletch the dammage and she's going to give them a try outside when she gets to CA for training. I can say these are out for indoor. For outdoor, she's going to see how they preform before drawing any conclusions.


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## Kaalboog

*Spinwings Barebow Field*

Are there any Barebow Field Archers using spinwings? Did you switch from rubber vanes, and how much difference did it make to your scores/ grouping?
I shoot Easton 510 FMJ's off 40# recurve. What improvement can I expect?
My PB for FITA Field marked round is 266.
Thanks
Kaalboog


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## inkystu

Hi Rick
Thanks for all the information you have posted here. I am returning to archery after a 15 year lay off.
As a junior I was 4 time British FITA field champion, all of those were won using mylar vanes as you used. For some reason they worked for me.
Now on my return (been shooting seriously for 4 months) I am using Kurly vanes. These are a kind of spin wing from Alternative Archery in the UK. They work quite well for me but to be honest I have just "thrown them on".
Since reading your posting I now have to seriously look at setting up and testing all different vanes to get the correct one for me.

I used to coach Jo Edens who in 1990 set the womens 30 meter record of 357. (still a british record today). She shot D05 plastics then. Had we known all you have posted here, you never know, that 357 could have been a 360!

Stuart


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## limbwalker

Ahhh,

I look at all those pictures and they remind me why I am using AAE plasifletch max vanes these days...

Fletched a dozen arrows in less than 30 minutes and have shot them 100's of times from 18 to 90 meters now. Not a single one has been damaged.

I had spin wings on my outdoor arrows for my Oly. bow up until last week - giving them "one more try..." But then I missed a torn vane on inspection and shot it at 90 meters. It fluttered down into the 1 ring and I took the whole dozen into my shop, stripped them all off, and re-fletched with my AAE vanes.

Peace of mind and no hassle is worth a lot to me right now, and I never saw an improvement in my groups with spin wings over the years...

Might be the heavy, fast arrows, or it may be that I'm just not shooting well enough to see a difference. Who knows, but I am through with spinnies at least for another couple of years...

John.


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## pencarrow

John, I am with you on vanes being more durable and user friendly than spinnies. I had been using 150FlexFletch vanes on a set of arrows for over a year & no problems. Then at last years outdoor Nationals the subject of consistent accuracy between spinnakers and vanes came up. So when I came home I tried some spinnies and did see some improvement, enough to put-up with the extra work. With the FF vanes I could not get much offset on my Triples,you probably have the same with your Nannos. Do you fletch, straight, offset or helical? If I’m not mistaken the base of the FFvanes is wider than the AAE vanes, which would allow more offset with the AAEs. I think ( on your recommendation ) I will get some AAEs and give them a try.

Fritz


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## limbwalker

Well, not to hijack the thread, but I've really never seen an increase in scores or those incredible "shrinking groups" that others claim to see with spin wings. I truly believe that some of that is seeing what they want to see. 

Surely though, many archers will benefit from their lighter weight. Some would say "all" archers would benefit from this, but especially those struggling to reach longer distances with lighter weight bows and shorter draws. It makes perfect sense for those archers to take advantage of the lighter weight mylar vanes.

However, most competitive senior men have horsepower to spare, so a few extra grains of weight aren't an issue.

I started out the 2004 season using yellow spin wings and shot pretty well at a windy Texas Shootout field. But soon after I switched to the 2" flex-fletch vanes just to compare. I shot a LOT in those days, and I was regularly breaking 330 (and sometimes 340 on calm days) at 70 meters in practice. I had two identical bows set up and tuned - one for the spin wings and one for the flex-fletch vanes, which added about 12 grains to the back end of the arrow. I could see no significant difference in scores between the two, but had a hunch I was actually scoring better with the vanes over about a one month period. I should have kept better notes back then... 

One of the reasons I sought out the 125 grain tungsten custom points for the ACE's I was using was to counter the extra nock end weight. This combination pushed my ACE's up to almost 400 grains! 

However, after having extreme amounts of difficulty getting flex-fletch vanes to properly adhere to the wraps or the carbon shafting, I found something I like better and they work just as well - the AAE plastifletch Max vanes. From everything I can tell, they are just as durable as the flex-fletch. However, they actually STICK to a shaft with no silly prep. work necessary. Just clean the arrow as you normally would, apply the glue and clamp them on. Stick great and I've never had one fall off like I did many flex-fletch vanes.

But folks should certainly use caution that these were the results I saw. Their mileage may very well vary from mine. Those 10-12 extra grains of nock end weight may be more than you can afford to send downrange each shot. And your arrow speed may also affect the difference in grouping - I just don't know all the details.

What I do know is how darn fragile those mylar vanes are. Not something I need to worry about during a tournament, or even on my practice range.

John.


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## jmvargas

i am very surprised at all these problems many seem to have with their spin wings....at the advice of my coach i have used them exclusively since i started serious target archery in 2004 and have never had these problems...the spinwings i have damaged have always been due to being hit by another arrow or being shot thru the clicker....perhaps i have been lucky in never having shot underspined arrows with spin wings so have never had any of those clearance problems cited....

IMHO for outdoor archery the spin wings are the best fletching for those using low-poundage bows like myself as they are also the lightest ....paired with the correctly spined mckinneyII arrows they make the lightest olympic caliber arrows currently available and ideal for reaching the long distances with low poundages...i am currently testing the 1 9/16" size as recommended by rick mckinney to be more suitable for the MK2s vs the 1 3/4"...they have a lower profile and should perform even better at oudoor distances.. 

IIRC more than 90 % of the archers in beijing were using spinwings...i cannot think of a better testament to their effectiveness.......


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## Rick McKinney

John, I can fully appreciate your comments about using a rubber fletch versus a Spin Wing vane. I would guess that most people will not notice a big difference or any at all if they are not in the “elite” level of competition. Most of the comments I made here was just a statement of fact. The Spin Wing vane has won so many medals since the late 1980’s that it is just a fact that they are the preferred choice of the champions (world and Olympic). 

The most fragile and sensitive fletch and the elite archers are willing to take the time to keep that high maintenance on them so they can get a point or two extra. I agree with you that the rubber fletch will do the job for 90+% of the archers out there. I was just stating the facts of what you see in the elite world. If the rubber fletch was just as good, I would say that most “elite” archers would go with the rubber fletch because of what you stated, easy to fletch and easy to maintain. 

I won my first world title with the PSE 260 rubber fletch (2115 x7), my second title with AAE rigid plastifletch (A/C 1508) and my third title with the Spin Wing (A/C 1508). You can see that I used three entirely different vanes and did well with them, but the Spin Wing came into play in the mid-1980’s. Check the records and you will see that they literally dominate for over 20 years. Again, it baffles me that one product can be so dominant with no financial reward other than winning.


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## JDT_Dad

limbwalker said:


> Well, not to hijack the thread, but I've really never seen an increase in scores or those incredible "shrinking groups" that others claim to see with spin wings. I truly believe that some of that is seeing what they want to see.


For us, it is definitely not a case of "what they want to see". We have done extensive testing of plastifletch vanes, yellow and white 1.75" spinwings and yellow elite 1.75" spin wings. The 1.75" elite spinwings were far superior in my daughter's setup. All the fletchings produce good groups, but the elite spin wings produced consistently higher scores and smaller groups. 

The results of our testing surprised us since we had been told by so many people not to use elite spin wings as they "don't work as well as the regular spin wings". Another thing we keep hearing is "rubber vanes works just as well as spin wings". In our testing, we found neither to be true.

As Rick Mckinney says, you must do your own testing.


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## limbwalker

Okay, before anyone takes my comments personally... 

Do your own testing...!

All you can properly deduce from my testing is what worked for me and me alone.

And Rick, there is no question about spin-wing's track record, but when you say:



> I would guess that most people will not notice a big difference or any at all if they are not in the “elite” level of competition.


The testing I did between spin wings and flex-fletch vanes was when I was shooting 330-340's at 70 meters on a daily basis. I tested them against one another on calm days, breezy days and downright windy days. Like I said, if anything, I was getting slightly tighter groups from my vanes. Obviously I can't shoot like that these days, so it makes far more sense for me to spend more time shooting and less time repairing fletching for now.

But that's just me. So if anyone wants to strip their spinnies and re-fletch with vanes, I urge caution. It would be like playing the same clubs as Tiger because he scores so well with them  Can't paint with that broad a brush, esp. considering the diversity of equipment we all use.

Something I would like to hear more about is why no compound fita shooters use spinnies. I'm sure there is a good reason for that. 

John.


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## Jason22

I was under the impression that compounds aren't using spin wings because their velocity would rip them off. 

I don't care for the way spin wings can move and walk and require being pressed back onto the shaft and constant fiddling. Even when shot at a 3 spot, they still require maintenance *if* you want them to remain absolutely perfect.

I'm surprised there isn't a vane out that works like a spin wing and is nearly as light, but can be permanently installed with a jig and is more durable.


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## Duss

*Compounds and Spin Wings*

A simple explanation is ;
1- Unless the compound bow is equipped with a "drop-away" rest, the wings would most likely interfere with the rest. 
2- Not many use "drop-away" rests in competition.


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## midwayarcherywi

I haven't found Spin Wings to be all that much of a hassle. And they do group well. In fact, I've shot 2 fletch arrows that group tightly with the perfect fletches. They just are not that sensitive. That's just my experience. I think a bit farther back on the thread, Rick McKinney shares his story about shooting ragged fletches quite well. 
Fixing Spin Wings in the field is easy. While I wouldn't say that they are as durable as plastic vanes, they are worth the little extra trouble....for me.


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## limbwalker

Thanks Duss, I figured it was something simple like that. My ignorance of compounds is showing I'm afraid...

However, if they did offer such a downrange advantage over vanes, wouldn't at least some of the top compound shooters have figured out a reliable way to use them?

John.


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## Landed in AZ

2222 said:


> I was under the impression that compounds aren't using spin wings because their velocity would rip them off.
> 
> I don't care for the way spin wings can move and walk and require being pressed back onto the shaft and constant fiddling. Even when shot at a 3 spot, they still require maintenance *if* you want them to remain absolutely perfect.
> 
> I'm surprised there isn't a vane out that works like a spin wing and is nearly as light, but can be permanently installed with a jig and is more durable.


I have never seen this problem with Spin Wings. I have found that problem with Kurly Vanes as they don't stick to the tape very well. I couldn't fletch fast enough while Kiley was shooting. I quickly ran out of vanes too.


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## Duss

In fact, an arrow fitted with Spin Wings shot with a compound bow MUST fully clear the rest. It always is a clearance problem, except that with a compound you are looking for vertical clearance. Realistically, with a well-tuned system, the fletching should clear the rest, BUT it is not always the case.

A nice thing to look at would be Alistair Whittingham's video on compound rest clearance : http://www.performance-archery.tv/?q=node/63

You shall see a "drop-away" rest in action in that video.

His whole series of audio and video conferences is extremely interesting.


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## Custard

2222


> I'm surprised there isn't a vane out that works like a spin wing and is nearly as light, but can be permanently installed with a jig and is more durable.


How about K-Vanes? although they might not be as durable as flex fletch types.


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## Hoytusa84

Very interesting read! I was told by my Korean coach before to fletch the SW in the middle (breadth wise) of the double side tape. Is this correct or do I have to fletch the SW flush to the edge of the double side tape? Fletching the SW flushed to the edge of the double side tape makes a lower profile fletch than fletching it in the middle of the double side tape.


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## massman

*In the form of an update.*

I really liked the idea of using the Flex-fletch shield cut vanes that John has previously mentioned. As John indicated (and for me too) these vanes sticking to the carbon shafts has been an issue. I've been experimenting and found that placing the vane in the fletching clamp nad using the clamp to support the base of the vane allows me to clean each vane base using paint thinner and a paper towel. I dap the towel on the thinner each time cleaning a vane. I place the towel with thinner at the center of the base and do a couple of swipes to either edge. Then remove the vane to allow it to air dry. Thereafter I've been using the AAE gell adhesive they sell for their vanes and the Flex-fletch vanes seem to be sticking like iron on my bare X10 shafts.

BEST Regards,

Tom


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## jhinaz

Hoytusa84 said:


> Very interesting read! I was told by my Korean coach before to fletch the SW in the middle (breadth wise) of the double side tape. Is this correct or do I have to fletch the SW flush to the edge of the double side tape? Fletching the SW flushed to the edge of the double side tape makes a lower profile fletch than fletching it in the middle of the double side tape.


No one has responded to your question yet so I'll give it a go.....at least until someone more knowledgeable gives you an answer.

Maybe I've misinterpreted what your coach is telling you, however I don't do it that way. I insert a SW into a Beiter wing-holder and attach the double-sided tape "flush" to the edge of the Spin Wing, then I position the wing-holder on the shaft and attach the SW. Even this method leaves a small EXPOSURE of sticky-tape which causes arrows in the quiver to *stick together*. In order to prevent them from sticking together I "dust" the SW area with powder. 

It seems to me that fletching Spin Wings in the "middle" of the double-sided tape would cause an even greater sticking problem, and I'm not sure that *half the width* of this narrow tape is enough to keep the SW securely fastened to the shaft. - John


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## Duss

If one works correctly and trims all excess tape off the Spin Wing before inserting it into the Beiter Holder, then no problem at all. Even then I keep dusting my arrows with talcum powder. But every time I forgot to "dust" them they were not sticking because the tape was well installed.

Concerning the adhesiveness of that tape (supplied with the Spin Wings), I would tend to say that even a half-width would keep the Spin Wings stuck forever IF ALL the surfaces have been well cleaned correctly. Also NEVER put your fingers onto the tape, since "finger grease" would impair the tape's adhesive properties. My experience is that when I am trying to remove a damaged Spin Wing the wrap would even come off the arrow... :smile:

Remember that using your fingers to press the wings onto the shaft after application helps in insuring a complete and durable adhesion.


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## Hoytusa84

Thanks for the replies. Because if I fletch the SW flushed to the edge there will still be half breadth wise of the tape not stuck to the shaft anyway. How ever I was thinking by sticking the entire tape it might reduce my drag and maybe better group at far distances. I will try fletching the entire tape today.


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## Duss

Hoytusa84 said:


> Thanks for the replies. Because if I fletch the SW flushed to the edge there will still be half breadth wise of the tape not stuck to the shaft anyway. How ever I was thinking by sticking the entire tape it might reduce my drag and maybe better group at far distances. I will try fletching the entire tape today.


Hello, I was following that subject with some interest. The main problem you might encounter with TRYING to apply the tape halfway would be the precision of the application. That would incur more problems than you would have solved. It is easier to apply the tape to the edge of the wing.


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## Hoytusa84

Hi Duss. I was initially having the same concern as you. But after much practice I can get it reasonably accurate. What I did was to draw the line with a Triliner first. Then stick the tape halfway breadth wise onto the line. Then I stick the fletch align with the line I drew. This way half the tape is exposed and the other is completely stuck to the SW. Then I powder the exposed tape. This method creates very neat fletchings with no extra tape sticking to the curve part of the SW but the problem is that this makes the SW very high profile and induce much drag which I personally can tell. My score at 90m and 70m is usually 50 points different. So I was wondering if by fletching the SW utilising the entire tape could create a fletch lower in profile thus less drag.


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## limbwalker

> I've been experimenting and found that placing the vane in the fletching clamp nad using the clamp to support the base of the vane allows me to clean each vane base using paint thinner and a paper towel. I dap the towel on the thinner each time cleaning a vane. I place the towel with thinner at the center of the base and do a couple of swipes to either edge. Then remove the vane to allow it to air dry.


Massman, IMO this is still more work than a person should have to do just to fletch arrows... Which is why I now shoot the AAE Plastifletch MAX vane. No prep necessary, and they stick to everything first try, every time. Performance is superb as well. 

John.


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## SBills

I agree. I got some samples of the AAE vanes and their glue at Louisville. Fletched up really fast and looks good. Indoor season is pretty much done and the weather is starting to break here in MI. Time to start shooting past 20 yards.


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## x10x

*sping wings on aluminum?*

My budget is low for a bit and I need a short fix for better scoring at the longer distance. Won't be able to buy my ace's for a couple more months. Has anyone ever used spin wings on aluminum arrows? If so can you comment on any performance difference.


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## Barry O'Regan

*Wow and amazing amount of info*

Thanks for all the tips and info everyone.


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## G4RB4G3M4N

*Quickspin*

I've never shot spinwings or kurly-vanes, my coach was never a fan citing constant repair and a lack of advantage. I will say though, AAE vanes are insanely durable, as I've known some of mine to last two mild outdoor seasons. However, if the worry is about taping, wouldn't quickspin vanes work in place of spinwing vanes, as they glue onto the shaft?


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## Shinigami3

limbwalker said:


> Something I would like to hear more about is why no compound fita shooters use spinnies. I'm sure there is a good reason for that.
> 
> John.



The first 1400+ score ever shot with a compound was shot with Spin Wings.


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## Barry O'Regan

*Compound Shooters, Spin Wings and Spinnies*

Most likely why is the higher velocity of the compound bow, as well as the maintenance of the spin wings and fragile nature associated with them, but that is just my opinion.



Shinigami3 said:


> The first 1400+ score ever shot with a compound was shot with Spin Wings.


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## cotang

I was wondering if using spin-wings indoors has any advantages?


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## midwayarcherywi

The obvious advantage is that you don't have to re tune your bow (as much) as you transition from outdoor to indoor. 

In previous threads, Vittorio Frangilli has stated there is no advantage to using a larger shaft. His son, Michele, is the data set for his findings.


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