# Form check and bareshaft tuning help



## Skyydyyver (Apr 5, 2021)

I am looking for help and advice please. This is a long post and I am asking alot so I really appreciate any guidance on form, finding exact draw length and the process of doing that, bareshaft tuning, and arrow advice. I am going to put the work in and improve my accuracy. I just need more knowledge and skill than I have now.
I've been shooting compound for almost 3 years and feel like I have gotten as far as I'm going to get on my own. I am looking into getting some coaching but I have a large family so low on time and funds. I don't shoot competitively, I just love the sport and now have 3 kids shooting with me so all learnings get passed on to them.
Anyway,
I am left handed and left eye dominant and have a habit of leaning back and closing my right eye, both of which I am trying to phase out.
Gear:
Bowtech Revolt X (60lbs)
57lbs draw weight (this is maxed out)
29.5" draw length (working on this, I feel like I am in between 29 and 29.5. Currently have the mod set at 29.5 and string stops at 29 for more holding weight. I have just recently started experimenting with this and it feels better but should probably do something more legitimate. advice?)
vapor trail limb driven drop away rest
MBG 3 pin pro sight (currently extended the full 6" on dovetail but thinking move it in or get a smaller peep)
3/16" peep
365 archery sidebar stabilizer balanced pretty well. Looking into maybe the torx hunting stab kit, not really wanting a large stabilizer.

Arrows:
Easton Hexx, 400 spine, 28" long, 3 fletch TAC driver helical (set at whatever an Arizona EZ fletch mini max gives) 100 grain field tips for a total weight (measured) 349 grains +/- 2gr. (these arrows are for target and 3d only. looking for efficiency at all ranges up to 110 yards, I like long shots). Arrows were spine aligned to the best of my ability with a diy spine tester. (this is my own recipie, I bought 125gr tips to experiment with but I when I ordered/cut arrows I was mistakenly thinking more front weight added spine stiffness. I am not sure what I will do now. I dont want to get under spined and I believe I am close to the edge of the chart. I should have bought 340 spine for more front weight?)

The wood trim (actually shaped like a large arrow) is dead level. I tried to get my arrow level but my son doesn't have the greatest eye for level. (I will try to remove the trees and things in the future!) Belt buckle centered under belly button. sorry about the black belt buckle, use a more visible silver next time.
No gripping of the bow, my fingers are only resting on the front of the grip, knuckles at ~45*.


















Sometimes I use a more open grip. Is a closed hand better for any reason?

























So, doing some bareshaft tuning at 20 yards last night I was consistently getting the diagonal tear from a nock left/high. The bareshaft is oddly landing straight on left/right and elevation. These pics of arrows and tears are from the same 2 arrows and same shots. I forgot to take pics of the group when not shooting paper. When I shoot them together they land approx 1" from each other with the bareshaft mostly landing straight with the fletched but sometimes angled. I cant remember now how it is angled when not landing straight. honestly the way the bareshaft and fletched land together looks really good, but I could visually see the arrow fishtailing at about 15 yards. (just a quick flash as it kinda starts broadsiding) bareshaft and fletched were both bullet holes at 3 yards. 
I moved paper to 15 yards to verify the fishtail. That's where I get the diagonal tear with bareshaft. fletched is still bullet hole. I moved the cams to the left (not knowing which way was correct and not thinking too much about it, just guessing) and bareshaft gave me a horrible 5" tear. Moved the cams back to start and just a little more right than where it was originally and the horizontal portion of the tear got better. moved cams to the right a tiny bit more, same tear, repeat, same tear, repeat, same tear. So I think it is related to something else (form?). 
The vertical portion of the tear I am planning on fixing. I noticed that my top string stop hits first with the bottom stop ~1/8" from the cable. I just got an EZ green press last week and have not used it yet. Am I correct that advancing the bottom cam should help with the vertical tear. If the cam advances then the nock point will be pulled down to correct the upward push on the nock? Ive been staring at the cables and cams and cant wrap my head around which cable I need to twist. (i feel dumb) is it the one that wraps around the bottom draw mod disk or the other one?
The Axle to Axle length is currently 33 5/16" (spec 33").
Brace height is currently 6 7/16 (spec 6.5")

Thank you to all in advance.


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## Skyydyyver (Apr 5, 2021)

I must be asking too much?


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

Skyydyyver said:


> I must be asking too much?


Fix bow hand first and bareshaft impact will improve.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

Skyydyyver said:


> I must be asking too much?




This works better for most humans on this planet.
Purpose for fingertips closed into palm of hand, is to use fingers (middle finger, 4th finger and pinky finger)
all curled into your palm, so the fingers act as a spacer to FORCE enough rotation on the bow hand knuckles.

Middle finger curled into palm, forces bow hand knuckles to swing to 45 degrees
and forced pointer finger to rise above the arrow shelf.

With knuckles at 45 degrees, this forces most of the thumb muscle to be behind the grip area of the riser, meaning LESS of the thumb muscle oozes past the edge of the grip.

So with fingers curled into palm of hand,
keep the fingers LOOSELY curled and keep the thumb muscle as cushy as a goose down pillow. If fingers are loosely curled, if forearm is relaxed, then THUMB muscle will be mushy
and the sideways miss will get smaller.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

Get wrist strap to trigger length SHORTER,
so trigger finger can do MORE like John Dudley.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

Skyydyyver said:


> I must be asking too much?


AFTER you get wrist closer to the trigger (make strap smaller so wrist strap rides HIGHER, ride AWAY from knuckles
then, tie a new d-loop DOUBLE length, YEAH DOUBLE length.

WHY do I need a DOUBLE length d-loop?
Answer. TO move the nock FARTHER back on your head.

WHY do I want my nock FARTHER BACK on my head?
To do this.



With LONGER d-loop, then nock rides FARTHER back on your head.
With nock FARTHER back on your head, then you swing your LEFT elbow more counter-clockwise behind your head
and the bareshaft will move more to the LEFT.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

Skyydyyver said:


> I must be asking too much?


BUT with a longer d-loop I cannot SWING my release elbow MORE counter-clockwise behind my head.
Don't have that much flexibility in my shoulder.
K.

THEN, stand LESS OPEN, and then you will have enough range of motion to swing release elbow more counter-clockwise behind your head.

BUT, I thought I was SUPPOSED to stand kind OPEN.
Yeah, supposed to don't work. Stand less open, and use a LONGER d-loop.


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## BigXX78 (Mar 16, 2005)

Now that you have a press, you'll be able to get your bow tuned to perfection. Nuts&Bolts knows his stuff. He'll help you get everything corrected and adjusted.


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## LIBowhunter (Sep 29, 2007)

Definitely listen to Alan / Nuts and Bolts.. He has a gift!

As a hunter, I would strongly recommend shooting with both eyes open.


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## Skyydyyver (Apr 5, 2021)

nuts&bolts said:


> This works better for most humans on this planet.
> Purpose for fingertips closed into palm of hand, is to use fingers (middle finger, 4th finger and pinky finger)
> all curled into your palm, so the fingers act as a spacer to FORCE enough rotation on the bow hand knuckles.
> 
> ...


Ok, so fingers curled into palm. I will start doing this. Now that you remind me I remember reading one of your posts about using a tin foil ball.

Wrist strap tighter and further back away from knuckles and make the strap shorter. Ok, this is easy and I will do it so finger can curl around trigger.

Double length D loop. Will need to buy some dloop material but will try and report back with pics from above.

What do you mean by standing less open. I guess I don't know what an open stance is?

Thank you for the help!


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## Skyydyyver (Apr 5, 2021)

BigXX78 said:


> Now that you have a press, you'll be able to get your bow tuned to perfection. Nuts&Bolts knows his stuff. He'll help you get everything corrected and adjusted.


Yes! I am excited to use my press. With some monkeying around last night I was able to get both my draw stops hitting at the same time.
Next thing is a diy draw board so I can really fine tune it instead of relying on my son the eyeball the timing while I draw.

I took 10 twists in a control cable to advance the bottom stop. That was more than I expected, does that sound like alot? It had about 1/8" gap at the bottom when the top was touching.


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## Skyydyyver (Apr 5, 2021)

LIBowhunter said:


> Definitely listen to Alan / Nuts and Bolts.. He has a gift!
> 
> As a hunter, I would strongly recommend shooting with both eyes open.


Thank you, it's a poor habit that I fall back on reflexively. Mostly a have both eyes open but it is hard for me to line up the scope housing inside the peep because the scope housing that my right eye sees is so bright and distracting. I've been considering using a blind but haven't tried yet


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## LIBowhunter (Sep 29, 2007)

Skyydyyver said:


> Thank you, it's a poor habit that I fall back on reflexively. Mostly a have both eyes open but it is hard for me to line up the scope housing inside the peep because the scope housing that my right eye sees is so bright and distracting. I've been considering using a blind but haven't tried yet


Especially in a hunting situation, I want both eyes wide open so I can see as much detail about the shot, placement of the shot and the deers reaction.
I'll close my left eye quick to check I'm centered with my peep and sight. Then open my eye and progress through my shot sequence with both eyes open


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## Skyydyyver (Apr 5, 2021)

nuts&bolts said:


> BUT with a longer d-loop I cannot SWING my release elbow MORE counter-clockwise behind my head.
> Don't have that much flexibility in my shoulder.
> K.
> 
> ...


Ok, so I made the changes. 
The new D loop length seems reeeally long but it is double.
I tightened my wrist strap 1 notch and it is really tight, left pressure marks on my wrist when I was done but it had the effect that you were looking for. (Not really liking how tight it is)
Curling last 3 fingers lightly into palm I forgot a few times but will work on making it part of my shot process.

My groups were not very impressive and it looks like I will need to retune/resight for the new form.

Tell me what you think.















Above pics were 2 different shots.


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## Skyydyyver (Apr 5, 2021)

Also dloop before and after for comparison. This was my first d loop tie...


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## Mcal321 (Mar 8, 2021)

Skyydyyver said:


> I am looking for help and advice please. This is a long post and I am asking alot so I really appreciate any guidance on form, finding exact draw length and the process of doing that, bareshaft tuning, and arrow advice. I am going to put the work in and improve my accuracy. I just need more knowledge and skill than I have now.
> I've been shooting compound for almost 3 years and feel like I have gotten as far as I'm going to get on my own. I am looking into getting some coaching but I have a large family so low on time and funds. I don't shoot competitively, I just love the sport and now have 3 kids shooting with me so all learnings get passed on to them.
> Anyway,
> I am left handed and left eye dominant and have a habit of leaning back and closing my right eye, both of which I am trying to phase out.
> ...


I believe your draw length is to long. Your elbow looks to be pointing down like your arm is locked out, and your spine might be weak. Depending on how far away you are from paper, your year could be from the arrow parallax or from weak spine. When I do it, I tinge the bow to factory specs and make sure everything is square, then shoot through paper. I move the rest to get a bullet hole through paper, then I go to the range, site in my bow, then do walk back tune. Walk back tuning will make you fine tune your rest. Then I test broadhead flight. As long as my arrows are square my broadhead flight is the same as my field points.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

Skyydyyver said:


> Ok, so I made the changes.
> The new D loop length seems reeeally long but it is double.
> I tightened my wrist strap 1 notch and it is really tight, left pressure marks on my wrist when I was done but it had the effect that you were looking for. (Not really liking how tight it is)
> Curling last 3 fingers lightly into palm I forgot a few times but will work on making it part of my shot process.
> ...


1) squeeze tummy muscles
2) pretend I am pulling your belt loop away from target, so hips swing away from target
3) when hips swing AWAY from target, then, right armpit will swing FORWARDS of right ankle
4) push riser CLOSER to target about 2-3 inches.

5) Glue sandals to the wooden floor and PUSH end of front stab 2-3 inches CLOSER to the target, so BEND at the belly button. Like this.










MIGHT need to drop the draw module 1/2-inch shorter.
Find a leather hole punch and punch a new hole halfway between two holes
for more comfy at the wrist.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

After you lean forwards 2-3 inches,
after you drop the draw module size 1/2-inch
repeat the fletched and bareshaft test.
Fire the fletched 3 times at a sheet of cardboard using just ONE fletched arrow in the quiver.
So, yeah, gotta walk 20 yrds and pull out the ONE fletched arrow. LABEL the 3 holes as "fletched".
Now, fire the bareshaft and take a photo.

Make sure to SWING left elbow MORE counter-clockwise behind your head, with the longer d-loop.


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## Skyydyyver (Apr 5, 2021)

MIGHT need to drop the draw module 1/2-inch shorter.
[/QUOTE]

I will do this. 
Would making the D loop shorter have the same effect though?


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## Skyydyyver (Apr 5, 2021)

nuts&bolts said:


> After you lean forwards 2-3 inches,
> after you drop the draw module size 1/2-inch
> repeat the fletched and bareshaft test.
> Fire the fletched 3 times at a sheet of cardboard using just ONE fletched arrow in the quiver.
> ...


1. I am now forcing myself to lean forward at the waist, pushing the riser forward. I actually like the feel of that. I feel like I am really leaning forward but I don't see alot off change in the pics, is it far enough?
2. made a new notch for the wrist strap in between the original and tighter one. It is still tight but feels good as well, I like it.
3. So the draw stops were at 29" with the draw mods at 29.5" (for more holding weight), Now the draw stops are at 28.5" and the draw mods are at 29". Feels....ok. not sure what to think yet, havnt shot a ton.
4. Trying to swing my left elbow counter clockwise but it wont go more than in the pics, if it does then my bow arm is pulled left. Also while I am trying to rotate counter clockwise I get pretty shaky. Thoughts?
5. I did the test. I shot a few rounds first to try things out, I have not resighted or tuned anything yet. I wasn't very consistent but went on with the test. I didn't like the results so I did the test 2 more times. I took videos of each of the fletched shots of first test (same arrow the whole time) and will post links.
I tried to focus hard but wasn't very consistent. After the tests I looked at the videos and realized that I forgot to curl the 3 fingers into palm. So I did one last test making sure I curled fingers into palm. I added a forth shot of the fletched just for good measure.

Here are the pics and video links. Thank you again for your time and patience, I am really trying to take advantage of your time and help!

































I only used ONE fletched shaft and labeled each shot fletched 1,2,3 for the shot order. I used only ONE bare shaft and labeled each shot bare.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

Skyydyyver said:


> 1. I am now forcing myself to lean forward at the waist, pushing the riser forward. I actually like the feel of that. I feel like I am really leaning forward but I don't see alot off change in the pics, is it far enough?
> 2. made a new notch for the wrist strap in between the original and tighter one. It is still tight but feels good as well, I like it.
> 3. So the draw stops were at 29" with the draw mods at 29.5" (for more holding weight), Now the draw stops are at 28.5" and the draw mods are at 29". Feels....ok. not sure what to think yet, havnt shot a ton.
> 4. Trying to swing my left elbow counter clockwise but it wont go more than in the pics, if it does then my bow arm is pulled left. Also while I am trying to rotate counter clockwise I get pretty shaky. Thoughts?
> ...


Let's do a SIMPLE draw length shooting test.
1) shoulder high target ... pin a clean sheet of cardboard to the front of target
2) use a roll of duct tape and make a HEAVY sharpie pen circle. Add a cross hair if you like.
3) use 20 yd sight pin, on the 10 yard target. Use some masking tape for a shooting line.

4) Fire the bareshaft first. Pull it out. Label hole as "bareshaft".
5) Fire fletched arrow second. Now take a photo.





So, the bareshaft and fletched arrow holes need to be no more than 1/16th inch apart.
If the holes are farther apart...play with draw module size (IN shorter direction).
If holes are farther than 1/16th inch apart...play with stance (with 1/2-inch shorter module size, use a slight open stance).

Play with module size (most likely shorter direction) and play with stance for your feet,
and play with "stance" for your shoulders.



Neutral Stance.



Open Stance.

The current stance, combined with current draw length module size is not working for you.
Experiment with a different draw module size.


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## Skyydyyver (Apr 5, 2021)

nuts&bolts said:


> Let's do a SIMPLE draw length shooting test.
> 1) shoulder high target ... pin a clean sheet of cardboard to the front of target
> 2) use a roll of duct tape and make a HEAVY sharpie pen circle. Add a cross hair if you like.
> 3) use 20 yd sight pin, on the 10 yard target. Use some masking tape for a shooting line.
> ...


Ok sounds good. I will do this tomorrow, I don't shoot on Sundays.


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## bmook019 (Jan 31, 2017)

Your stance is extremely closed. You may want to move your right foot back so you're at least square to the target.


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## Skyydyyver (Apr 5, 2021)

bmook019 said:


> Your stance is extremely closed. You may want to move your right foot back so you're at least square to the target.


Ok, I will be playing with my stance tonight per nuts&bolts.
My current stance is how I naturally stand to draw. I haven't purposely tried to do it any other way so will be something new to try.


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## Huntinsker (Feb 9, 2012)

Skyydyyver said:


> Ok, so I made the changes.
> The new D loop length seems reeeally long but it is double.
> I tightened my wrist strap 1 notch and it is really tight, left pressure marks on my wrist when I was done but it had the effect that you were looking for. (Not really liking how tight it is)
> Curling last 3 fingers lightly into palm I forgot a few times but will work on making it part of my shot process.
> ...


Not sure if anyone has mentioned this but your bow arm wrist is very high for the low wrist angle design of that grip. Do you have wrist extension issues that do not allow the bottom of your thumb to touch the grip or are you pushing your hand forward to fit into your draw length? If you're pushing, that will cause torque almost 100% of the time because your palm will be pushing harder on the right side of the grip than on the left. That's what causes the left tear. Too much pressure on the right side of the grip causes a left tear and too much on the left side of the grip causes a right tear. 

If you're able, relax your forearm so that the base of your thumb touches the bottom of your bow's grip. Then make sure your hand it relaxed and your thumb is still pointing straight to the target. Chances are once you extend your wrist, your thumb will want to point to the left of the target more so you'll need to rotate your hand clockwise to be centered on the grip. That'll help decrease the pressure on the right of the grip too.


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## Skyydyyver (Apr 5, 2021)

Huntinsker said:


> Not sure if anyone has mentioned this but your bow arm wrist is very high for the low wrist angle design of that grip. Do you have wrist extension issues that do not allow the bottom of your thumb to touch the grip or are you pushing your hand forward to fit into your draw length? If you're pushing, that will cause torque almost 100% of the time because your palm will be pushing harder on the right side of the grip than on the left. That's what causes the left tear. Too much pressure on the right side of the grip causes a left tear and too much on the left side of the grip causes a right tear.
> 
> If you're able, relax your forearm so that the base of your thumb touches the bottom of your bow's grip. Then make sure your hand it relaxed and your thumb is still pointing straight to the target. Chances are once you extend your wrist, your thumb will want to point to the left of the target more so you'll need to rotate your hand clockwise to be centered on the grip. That'll help decrease the pressure on the right of the grip too.


Hi, thank you, my bareshaft inconsistentancies have made me suspicious that I may be torquing so I would like to investigate this.
However, I'm not fully understanding what you are explaining. I'm not sure what you mean by my thumb touching the bottom of the grip?. 
I do not have wrist extension issues. My bow wrist was broken snowboarding once but I have no mobility restrictions or pain from that.
I am trying to push the riser forward in the latter pics posted as requested by nuts&bolts, but not in the original pics.
Also could you explain what you mean by the high wrist? To my layman eyes I don't see what change to make.
Fletched arrow bullet holes are easy for me to tune but bareshaft sometimes give me confusing results.


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## Skyydyyver (Apr 5, 2021)

nuts&bolts said:


> Let's do a SIMPLE draw length shooting test.
> 1) shoulder high target ... pin a clean sheet of cardboard to the front of target
> 2) use a roll of duct tape and make a HEAVY sharpie pen circle. Add a cross hair if you like.
> 3) use 20 yd sight pin, on the 10 yard target. Use some masking tape for a shooting line.
> ...


Ok,I did the test. It was not good 😕
I used blue painters tape on the floor to make a line perpendicular to the target face.
I started off with the 28.5" draw length and both toes lined up for a square stance. That was groups 1 and 2 (used 2 cardboard targets, same 2 arrows for everything).
Not good, very large gap between holes.
Then tried 28.5" draw length with right foot 2" from line...still big gap.
Moved draw length to 28" and repeated both stances. Not good.

I feel shaky, I think it is from trying to swing my draw elbow to where I feel like it needs to be in line with arrow. Might be from leaning forward too, but I do like the feel of how I'm leaning (pretty sure I'm not even leaning, just feels like it and that's actually straight.

I didn't try going down to 27.5" draw length, that just seems way too short. 28" feels short too. I'm 6'2” if that helps with reference at all.
I shot some 20yrd groups with both draw lengths and they were larger groups than is normal for me. Oddly they almost seemed better than the 10yrd test. I'm not sure where to go from here?















Just realized I forgot to take pics after shooting 4 more fletched/bareshaft groups. They were similar if not worse than those above though.








20yrd groups at 28" draw length, square stance


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

Skyydyyver said:


> Ok,I did the test. It was not good 😕
> I used blue painters tape on the floor to make a line perpendicular to the target face.
> I started off with the 28.5" draw length and both toes lined up for a square stance. That was groups 1 and 2 (used 2 cardboard targets, same 2 arrows for everything).
> Not good, very large gap between holes.
> ...


Take a video of you shooting.
Tape camera phone to a ladder at arrow height.
Slide ladder far away enough so the camera phone can see the ground, can see your shoes,
can see ALL of you and all of the bow. Record at least 5 minutes of you shooting.
Upload to Youtube.

Tell the camera phone what stance you are using, tell the camera phone what draw length module you have installed,
when you run the video.


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## Huntinsker (Feb 9, 2012)

Skyydyyver said:


> Hi, thank you, my bareshaft inconsistentancies have made me suspicious that I may be torquing so I would like to investigate this.
> However, I'm not fully understanding what you are explaining. I'm not sure what you mean by my thumb touching the bottom of the grip?.
> I do not have wrist extension issues. My bow wrist was broken snowboarding once but I have no mobility restrictions or pain from that.
> I am trying to push the riser forward in the latter pics posted as requested by nuts&bolts, but not in the original pics.
> ...


So the wrist should extend so that your 1st carpometacarpal joint contacts the grip. That is all the way down at the very base of your thumb, under the "thumb pad". If you wiggle your thumb around and follow the bone in the thumb pad down to where it stops, that's the 1st CMC joint. Here's a picture of it on an x-ray. Way down by the carpal bones. 

The next picture shows different wrist angles, low, medium and high, that people might shoot with. Typically for a compound bow with letoff, it's best to not shoot medium or high unless you also build the grip up so that you can stay relaxed with that wrist angle. For bows that have a low wrist grip design, the wrist should extend so the grip hand contacts the grip properly so that the forearm and hand can stay relaxed. In order to shoot a medium or high wrist angle on a bow with a low grip, you have to forcibly flex wrist slightly or push the hand forwards and that causes obvious muscle tension. It also pushes forwards on the grip and if you look at the shape of the human hand, the palm angles more forwards than the thumb so the palmar aspect of the hand will push more on the grip than the thumb causing the torque. With the wrist extended properly, it brings the thumb and palm of the hand back into the same plane and reduces the torque. 

If you look at your first pictures, you can see that there's still space between your hand and the grip on the bow so while it may not have been as pronounced, you still had a "medium" wrist angle. 









__
Sensitive content, not recommended for those under 18
Show Content










I'd assume that the slight grip issue developed from trying to get your forearm out of the way of the string. Your super closed stance and externally rotated upper arm causes your forearm to get closer to the string and I'd guess in the past you've had some trouble hitting it so you did the normal thing and adjusted to compensate. Like most you adjust the most obvious thing, which unfortunately isn't usually the right thing. Open the stance, internally rotate your upper arm so that your elbow points out to your right and then you'll be able to shoot with a proper grip without hitting the string on your arm. Here's a picture of what the arm bones need to look like. It's for a right handed person but you'll get the idea. What you should look like is on the left. To do this you do it at the shoulder and internally rotate your humerus (upper arm) bone. Don't just twist your hand.


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## Skyydyyver (Apr 5, 2021)

nuts&bolts said:


> Take a video of you shooting.
> Tape camera phone to a ladder at arrow height.
> Slide ladder far away enough so the camera phone can see the ground, can see your shoes,
> can see ALL of you and all of the bow. Record at least 5 minutes of you shooting.
> ...


I will do this, it may be a couple days till I have time.


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## Skyydyyver (Apr 5, 2021)

Huntinsker said:


> So the wrist should extend so that your 1st carpometacarpal joint contacts the grip. That is all the way down at the very base of your thumb, under the "thumb pad". If you wiggle your thumb around and follow the bone in the thumb pad down to where it stops, that's the 1st CMC joint. Here's a picture of it on an x-ray. Way down by the carpal bones.
> 
> The next picture shows different wrist angles, low, medium and high, that people might shoot with. Typically for a compound bow with letoff, it's best to not shoot medium or high unless you also build the grip up so that you can stay relaxed with that wrist angle. For bows that have a low wrist grip design, the wrist should extend so the grip hand contacts the grip properly so that the forearm and hand can stay relaxed. In order to shoot a medium or high wrist angle on a bow with a low grip, you have to forcibly flex wrist slightly or push the hand forwards and that causes obvious muscle tension. It also pushes forwards on the grip and if you look at the shape of the human hand, the palm angles more forwards than the thumb so the palmar aspect of the hand will push more on the grip than the thumb causing the torque. With the wrist extended properly, it brings the thumb and palm of the hand back into the same plane and reduces the torque.
> 
> ...


Great explanation, I understand now and can see what you are saying.
I will work on this. I did have string slap when I had first started shooting and it went away in the first few sessions years ago. I may have unconsciously adjusted for it. 
When I bought this bow the shop owner told me something similar to what you are saying and said I was definitely torquing my grip. He then showed me my lifeline and said to keep the riser on the thumb side but did not mention about a high or low wrist. It seems like my whole thumb muscle is contacting the grip but I have not consciously paid attention to it. I initially did not like the grip of the bow and wanted to try the other grip (I think it's a high grip) but he only had right hand ones so I just got used to this one.
Do you think a higher grip would be a solution or do you think it is better to change to the low wrist?
I will try a low wrist and add that in with the video for nuts&bolts.


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## Huntinsker (Feb 9, 2012)

Skyydyyver said:


> Great explanation, I understand now and can see what you are saying.
> I will work on this. I did have string slap when I had first started shooting and it went away in the first few sessions years ago. I may have unconsciously adjusted for it.
> When I bought this bow the shop owner told me something similar to what you are saying and said I was definitely torquing my grip. He then showed me my lifeline and said to keep the riser on the thumb side but did not mention about a high or low wrist. It seems like my whole thumb muscle is contacting the grip but I have not consciously paid attention to it. I initially did not like the grip of the bow and wanted to try the other grip (I think it's a high grip) but he only had right hand ones so I just got used to this one.
> Do you think a higher grip would be a solution or do you think it is better to change to the low wrist?
> I will try a low wrist and add that in with the video for nuts&bolts.


Personally, I have all my grips built up to around 23-24 degrees. Most grips are down around 17 degrees which is pretty steep for most people really. At 24 degrees, I have less tension in my hand and forearm and it's just more comfortable. A lot of people don't think about it but you can be totally relaxed and still have muscle tension if the muscles are being stretched so a really low wrist grip isn't for everyone, just like a mid or high wrist isn't either. I'm a big believer in making the bow fit you and not you fit the bow so I'm not afraid to change stuff if necessary.

Now, whether or not you go with low or maybe mid and get a different grip to fit? That's going to be totally up to you. Might as well try the low and you may get a long with it really well. I didn't ever really have a problem with low wrist but after playing around with different grip angles, a little higher just felt better to me. I still have what would be considered a "low" wrist but it's higher than the factory grips required. If you have the option to try other grip plates easily, I'd definitely recommend trying them and finding what you like best.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

Skyydyyver said:


> Great explanation, I understand now and can see what you are saying.
> I will work on this. I did have string slap when I had first started shooting and it went away in the first few sessions years ago. I may have unconsciously adjusted for it.
> When I bought this bow the shop owner told me something similar to what you are saying and said I was definitely torquing my grip. He then showed me my lifeline and said to keep the riser on the thumb side but did not mention about a high or low wrist. It seems like my whole thumb muscle is contacting the grip but I have not consciously paid attention to it. I initially did not like the grip of the bow and wanted to try the other grip (I think it's a high grip) but he only had right hand ones so I just got used to this one.
> Do you think a higher grip would be a solution or do you think it is better to change to the low wrist?
> I will try a low wrist and add that in with the video for nuts&bolts.


Do this with the bow hand and wrist.





Completely relax the forearm (bow side).
Completely relax the wrist, so the back of hand matches the grip angle.
Make thumb muscle as mushy as possible, so the riser actually SINKS into the thumb muscle.


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## Skyydyyver (Apr 5, 2021)

nuts&bolts said:


> Do this with the bow hand and wrist.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I will try that. Am I to put my index finger over the shelf like that as well?
My arrows might be a bit short for that. I cut them at 28" thinking of keeping them as light as possible for every advantage in wind and to maximize weight up front with the light arrow. It was a bit of an experiment that I may be regretting. Anyway, that puts the arrow at about the middle of the riser. Maybe 1.25" in front of my rest which is pretty far back.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

Skyydyyver said:


> I will try that. Am I to put my index finger over the shelf like that as well?
> My arrows might be a bit short for that. I cut them at 28" thinking of keeping them as light as possible for every advantage in wind and to maximize weight up front with the light arrow. It was a bit of an experiment that I may be regretting. Anyway, that puts the arrow at about the middle of the riser. Maybe 1.25" in front of my rest which is pretty far back.


If shooting broadheads, go with longer arrows.
If shooting field points, I have my field point/target point arrows only 3/4-inch past the arrow rest arm.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

Skyydyyver said:


> I will try that. Am I to put my index finger over the shelf like that as well?
> My arrows might be a bit short for that. I cut them at 28" thinking of keeping them as light as possible for every advantage in wind and to maximize weight up front with the light arrow. It was a bit of an experiment that I may be regretting. Anyway, that puts the arrow at about the middle of the riser. Maybe 1.25" in front of my rest which is pretty far back.


When you slide the thumb ALL the way up to the underside of the curve on the arrow shelf,
and when you rotate knuckles to 45 degrees,
then the pointer finger knuckle will rise ABOVE the arrow shelf, exactly like this.





So, if shooting field points, make bow hand EXACTLY like this.
So, if shooting fixed blade broadheads, get longer arrows.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

Skyydyyver said:


> I will try that. Am I to put my index finger over the shelf like that as well?
> My arrows might be a bit short for that. I cut them at 28" thinking of keeping them as light as possible for every advantage in wind and to maximize weight up front with the light arrow. It was a bit of an experiment that I may be regretting. Anyway, that puts the arrow at about the middle of the riser. Maybe 1.25" in front of my rest which is pretty far back.


So, this is jewalker, after I helped him years ago. His AFTER form.



This is jewalker, his AFTER form for the bow arm.



This is jewalker, his AFTER form for the bow hand, yes, with pointer finger knuckle ABOVE the arrow shelf.




jewalker is on the left, this is HOW you rotate the knuckles.
fella who asked for help and is trying to CHEAT the angle on his knuckles, so right hand photo is how NOT to do it.

When you truly rotate the knuckles to 45 degrees, PINKY knuckle does NOT touch riser.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

But, this pointer finger knuckle ABOVE the arrow shelf feels WEIRD, feels UN-safe.
Well, if you are shooting field points, and using a modern arrow rest, the arrow flies forwards, arrow does not fly sideways.

If you are using HUGE high profile vanes and worried vanes might smack your finger, switch to lower profile vanes.

SHooting results at 30 yards for jewalker, using his AFTER form.



So, if you are not shooting groups like this at 30 yards, 
then do something DIFFERENT until you are shooting groups like this at 30 yards.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

ALL of your problems are right here. Bow hand grip technique. Tension in the forearm. Tension in the wrist.
Back of hand is NOT matching the grip angle. Heel of the palm has ZERO contact with the riser.










1) make wrist as FLOPPY as possible, meaning zero tension in the forearm, so back of hand MOLDS into the grip
2) MOLDS into grip means ZERO gap between heel of palm and the riser/grip area. 
3) MOLDS into grip means back of hand rises more vertical, to match grip angle.
4) MASSIVE amount of bow hand thumb muscle over-hand past left edge of grip
5) MASSIVE amount of thumb muscle oozing past left edge of grip, means not anywhere NEAR enough rotation

So, use a 2-inch ball.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

But, I don't have a 2-inch ball.
So, make one. Take aluminum foil and make a stiff 2-inch diameter ball.

Now, hold the foil ball with three fingers.



Ball will keep the pinky finger busy, will keep 4th finger busy, will keep middle finger busy.
Light pressure for three finger around this 2-inch foil ball.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

The ball acts as a spacer. Have ball contact the riser wall. The ball will FORCE your knuckles to rotate FAR away from vertical. And yes, your pointer finger knuckle will rise ABOVE the arrow shelf. If you are not shooting fixed blade broadheads, you will be fine.

BUT, this feels so WEIRD. Yup.
But, ima gonna drop my bow. Nope. Not if you use a wrist sling.
BUT, none of my fingers touch the riser. Exactly.
BUT, ima gonna drop my bow. Nope. Not if you use a wrist sling....loop of rope, that you feed your bow arm thru.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

But how can I shoot my bow with this giant 2-inch BALL in my bow hand?
You guide the riser, you POINT the wall of the riser with the side of your thumb.



BUT, that ball is SOOOOO big, I cannot GRIP my riser.
Perfect. You don't wanna GRIP the riser. You want the fingers LOOSELY curled around the ball.
BUT, I can't do my HIGH wrist grip thing any more. Perfect.
Relax your forearm and allow the back of your hand to MOLD to the grip angle, and get FULL contact with the palm of your hand...get top of palm/bow hand touching the grip...get middle of palm/bow hand touching the grip, and especially get bottom of palm/heel of hand touching the grip. ZERO tension in the forearm. ZERO tension in the wrist. ZERO tension in the bow hand thumb muscle, so you FEEL the riser SINK into a mushy bow hand thumb muscle.

BUT, my knuckle is ABOVE the arrow shelf. This is SOOO weird.
Turn off the brain and put only 1 arrow in your quiver.

Why just 1 arrow?
Cuz you are gonna start some REAL training.

Duct tape for a 2 yd shooting line, 2 yards, just 6 feet away from the face of a shoulder high target.
WHY so high? So, you can take a level shot, and hit the middle of target.
Pin a clean sheet of cardboard to the front of the target.



Use a sharpie pen and draw a cross hair.
BUT, it's only 2 yards. That ain't hard enough.
Trust me. THIS is hard enough.

Use your 20 yd sight pin.
BUT, this is only 2 yards. WHY do I wanna use my 20 yard sight pin?
So, you miss the cross hair.

Why miss on purpose?
Cuz, you gonna fire that one arrow for 30 shots.
BUT, then, I gotta put down my bow.
Exactly.
BUT, then I gotta step forwards and pull out that ONE arrow.
Yuppers. Exactly.
BUT, this is gonna slow me WAY WAY down?
Yuppers, exactly.

BUT, Ima gonna shoot thru my bag target.
Not if you hand a 1inch wad of paper behind the bag target.



Hand a wad of paper, say 1-2inches thick, behind your target, and the arrow will not bury up to the vanes,
doing my STRESS test.

STRESS test?
Yes. 30 shots, with ONE arrow. GOAL is to get all 30 shots into the SAME hole, shooting from just 2 yards away.
ONE arrow forces you to slow down.
ONE arrow forces you to learn the FEEL of a perfect shot.
STRESS from physical fatigue.
STRESS from perfection syndrome, STRESS from performance anxiety. FORCE you to calm down for each shot.
As you get closer and closer to 30 shots in the same hole, FORCES you to realize if the setup to full draw ain't perfect.
FORCES you to let down, so you don't mess up PRIOR to reaching 30 perfect shots.

TEaches you sensitivity for when to let down.

THIS is what happens, if you don't pay attention to HOW you get to full draw.



THIS is stance no good. THIS is what happens when you setup to full draw, not perfect.
THIS is what happens when you rush.
THIS is what happens when you shoot the wrong draw module size for you.

So, try ONE arrow in the quiver.
DUMP the high wrist technique. VERy difficult to master and HIGH wrist is not working for you.
Use the 2-inch foil ball to get your knuckles rotated MUCH MORE to get better sideways miss pattern results.
Your sideways miss pattern is mostly due to insufficient knuckles rotation, due to FEAR of pointer knuckle too high.
Your sideways miss pattern is also due to HIGH wrist grip technique, cuz you THOUGHT this would be torque free.


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## Skyydyyver (Apr 5, 2021)

nuts&bolts said:


> But how can I shoot my bow with this giant 2-inch BALL in my bow hand?
> You guide the riser, you POINT the wall of the riser with the side of your thumb.
> 
> 
> ...


Ok, I will try the low wrist with 2in ball and the stress test and report back.
This is my 3d bow so will not be using broadhead with it so that will not be an issue.
Thank you


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## Skyydyyver (Apr 5, 2021)

Just letting you guys know that I'm still working on this. I had to steal the 2" ball from my daughter, told her nuts&bolts made me.
I have been practicing drawing and holding at home, will go to the range tomorrow and update then.
I have long fingers and feel like I don't know what to do with them. I'll figure it out though.
Here is what I have so far.
(No phones were harmed in the production of these photographs)


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

Skyydyyver said:


> Just letting you guys know that I'm still working on this. I had to steal the 2" ball from my daughter, told her nuts&bolts made me.
> I have been practicing drawing and holding at home, will go to the range tomorrow and update then.
> I have long fingers and feel like I don't know what to do with them. I'll figure it out though.
> Here is what I have so far.
> ...


Drop draw length at LEAST 1/2-inch shorter.










Body is nice and vertical,
and
arrow is nice and LEVEL...however,
the bow arm (shoulder to wrist) is pointing DOWNHILL when arrow is level.

THIS can ONLY HAPPEN when the draw length is too long. Bow arm is like a draw bridge to a castle.
As you unwind the chain holding up the end of the draw bridge, so the draw bridge (bow arm) goes BELOW horizontal, and the draw bridge starts to dip DOWNHILL, this is cuz you unwound too much chain (TOO long of a draw length).

ONLY way to get the bow arm wrist up to LEVEL, is to shorten the draw length
and the bow arm wrist will swing UP to level.

THIS is why even with a closed stance, the bow arm / wrist is TOO LOW (bow arm is downhill) with a dead level arrow
and a vertical backbone.

SO, open up the stance, and with this draw length setting, your bow arm/wrist will drop even CLOSER to the floor.
So, dial the draw length SHORTER, at least 1/2-inch
and open up the stance
and get the bow arm AND arrow both level at the same time.


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## Skyydyyver (Apr 5, 2021)

Update, sort of, in case anyone cares.
I'm still working on this, work got in the way of life and I wasn't able to shoot for a bit. 
I haven't done any shooting for fun in weeks! Just form work and drills to try what has been advised here.
@nuts&bolts: you were correct about the draw length in your last post. I had tried to go back to my original draw length because I had become shaky and was shooting worse, although I had forgotten about the longer D loop.
So draw length was lowered again down to 28.5".
Unfortunately so far I am still shooting worse and I think it is mostly because I have become shaky, I can't hold my bow very steady Honestly it feels like fatigue but I'm shaky right with the first arrow.
Yesterday I took a break from drills and form to try bareshaft tuning again (20yrds) and had better results, I even broke a nock on a fletched arrow with the bareshaft. The bareshaft was consistently a tiny bit nock high but stayed relatively close to my fletched. Timing is perfect so I'm thinking I might try to lower the draw weight on one side.
Anyway, I'm thinking my form is better from my bareshaft results which aside from poi (group size) was very consistent.
I feel like my main issue now is finding out why I can't hold steady. Bow is still well balanced and I can easily draw and get on target smoothly but the sight pin starts wiggling all over.

THanks again for all the advice, I'm going to figure this out!


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## Skyydyyver (Apr 5, 2021)

@nuts&bolts: Question though, after lowering draw length back down to 28.5" I also put a shorter D loop back on, is there a reason for using a longer D loop vs longer draw length?


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## Huntinsker (Feb 9, 2012)

Skyydyyver said:


> Update, sort of, in case anyone cares.
> I'm still working on this, work got in the way of life and I wasn't able to shoot for a bit.
> I haven't done any shooting for fun in weeks! Just form work and drills to try what has been advised here.
> @nuts&bolts: you were correct about the draw length in your last post. I had tried to go back to my original draw length because I had become shaky and was shooting worse, although I had forgotten about the longer D loop.
> ...


Don't fall into the trap of thinking that your form is automatically better because you can get a straight flying bareshaft. I've seen all kinds of people with form issues shoot good bareshafts and I've done it myself many times. I can bareshaft tune my wife's bow and her draw length is at least 3" shorter than mine. I've also bareshaft tuned bows drawing an inch or two over mine. Bareshafts care about one thing. Torque in the system. That torque can come from face pressure on the string or usually from grip torque. If you don't have either, it doesn't matter what your body looks like. The bow and bareshaft won't care.

Long story short, don't chase a bareshaft to fix your form. Fix your form and then bareshaft tune. Find the draw length and the body positions to give the best and most solid hold at full draw and you'll have the best accuracy. If you bareshaft tune on top of that, you'll have the best accuracy and consistency and then good arrow flight as the cherry on top. NEVER compromise form to get a good bareshaft. Get solid, consistent and repeatable form and then tune a bareshaft. 

I know certain people say differently but certain people are wrong.


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## Huntinsker (Feb 9, 2012)

Skyydyyver said:


> @nuts&bolts: Question though, after lowering draw length back down to 28.5" I also put a shorter D loop back on, is there a reason for using a longer D loop vs longer draw length?


Draw length controls the bow fit to you. D-loop length controls your body positions, mostly the rear arm but also your shoulders. If your shoulders are shrugged and the back sholder/elbow too high, a longer loop can bring that down while keeping the bow fitting the rest of you. In a nutshell the bow's DL needs to fit from your grip hand to your face. The loop fits the back arm.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

Skyydyyver said:


> @nuts&bolts: Question though, after lowering draw length back down to 28.5" I also put a shorter D loop back on, is there a reason for using a longer D loop vs longer draw length?


If you have a tiny left nock tear, shorten the d-loop to get your nock a little closer to the riser, so you can get your right elbow (release elbow) to swing counter-clockwise less behind your head.

If you have a right nock tear, lengthen the d-loop, to get your nock a little farther away from the riser,
so you can swing your right elbow (release elbow) more clockwise behind your head.



Right nock tear, a small one, swing your tip of elbow a bit more clockwise behind your head. You can make this change thru a longer d-loop. Yes, nock will land 1/8th inch or 1/4inch further back on your face.
Must make sure that your elbow DOES swing more clockwise behind your head.


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## Huntinsker (Feb 9, 2012)

^^ This is what I'm talking about. Don't chase bareshaft flight at the expense of your form. Find your best pin float and form and then tune the bow for arrow flight. There is no guarantee that chasing a bareshaft tune by manipulating your form will get you to your best or even good pin float. Who cares if you can shoot a straight bareshaft if you can't do it consistently and where you're aiming?


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## Skyydyyver (Apr 5, 2021)

nuts&bolts said:


> If you have a tiny left nock tear, shorten the d-loop to get your nock a little closer to the riser, so you can get your right elbow (release elbow) to swing counter-clockwise less behind your head.
> 
> If you have a right nock tear, lengthen the d-loop, to get your nock a little farther away from the riser,
> so you can swing your right elbow (release elbow) more clockwise behind your head.
> ...


Ok, thanks for the follow up, I can see what you are saying.
I assume it is opposite for left hand. (I am a lefty)


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## Skyydyyver (Apr 5, 2021)

Huntinsker said:


> Don't fall into the trap of thinking that your form is automatically better because you can get a straight flying bareshaft. I've seen all kinds of people with form issues shoot good bareshafts and I've done it myself many times. I can bareshaft tune my wife's bow and her draw length is at least 3" shorter than mine. I've also bareshaft tuned bows drawing an inch or two over mine. Bareshafts care about one thing. Torque in the system. That torque can come from face pressure on the string or usually from grip torque. If you don't have either, it doesn't matter what your body looks like. The bow and bareshaft won't care.
> 
> Long story short, don't chase a bareshaft to fix your form. Fix your form and then bareshaft tune. Find the draw length and the body positions to give the best and most solid hold at full draw and you'll have the best accuracy. If you bareshaft tune on top of that, you'll have the best accuracy and consistency and then good arrow flight as the cherry on top. NEVER compromise form to get a good bareshaft. Get solid, consistent and repeatable form and then tune a bareshaft.
> 
> I know certain people say differently but certain people are wrong.


I'm glad you mention that. I guess what I meant without realizing it was that my form is at least consistent and I believe I have learned how to avoid torquing fairly well.
As to where my form and hold is at this point, you are right. I need to find the draw length and stance that has me holding solid. So far it is elusive, I have only gotten worse, but I'm learning so I think I will get there eventually. I just need to play around with it all. It's so time consuming though. Changing something and trying it out for a while, finding it isn't working and changing again. If I can just find that spot where I hold solid without all the shaking around I will be golden.


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