# simple tournament changes



## Robert Piette

Not sure why I am adding my opinion here, but these are things I like to see at the average 3D tournament:

1. Shot Gun Start for the first and second round.
2. Door prizes drawn and distributed at lunch or while cards are being handed in for results
3. Defined time for turning in cards and orderly awards ceremonies
4. Targets were the scoring rings are visible with average binos
5. Organization and Structure

For the local or average tournament, peer group or busted groups isn't really a concern for me and would probably be detrimental for those shoots. For more important shoots like the Provincials or the Triple Crown shoots (I am sure some will argue they are not important) it would be a good idea to enforce through organization. I know we are peer grouped at the Provincials on the second day, but it would be nice to see this extended to the first day and the two subsequent triple crown shoots. This level of organization doesn't seem to be an issue at the outdoor target shoots I have a attend, most have posted participation list, registration cut-off dates, online pre-registration, assigned target butts, orderly equipment checks, cards assigned at registration, etc.. The Provincial Target championships in Caledon this year was a good example of this organization, not sure why this isn't applied to the 3D Provincial events.

Just my thoughts.


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## ShawnRees

1. Regulated maximum arrow speed.
2. Regulated arrow diameter. (one size fits all would be even better)
3. Better visibility of scoring rings to lesson bino time.
4. Clear Pro & Amateur divisions.
5. Less classes.

My preference would be to have a set of rules that would regulate bow performance and spec's for competition purposes. Currently, money can buy points. Let the best shooters win by leveling the playing field. No one should have to spend thousands to compete with the top guns.

Again... Just my thoughts.


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## Bow bandit

Hey Shawn, all that you have proposed sounds great on paper but it will only decrease attendance. It does not matter what rule you make those who practice the most will always win! The only thing I would really like to see is expedited shoot times. Put a deadline on handing in scores and do any prize draws starting immediately at that time while scores are being tallied.


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## FiFi

ShawnRees said:


> 1. Regulated maximum arrow speed.
> 2. Regulated arrow diameter. (one size fits all would be even better)
> 3. Better visibility of scoring rings to lesson bino time.
> 4. Clear Pro & Amateur divisions.
> 5. Less classes.
> 
> My preference would be to have a set of rules that would regulate bow performance and spec's for competition purposes. Currently, money can buy points. Let the best shooters win by leveling the playing field. No one should have to spend thousands to compete with the top guns.
> 
> Again... Just my thoughts.


 


1 a capped speed limit was what we used to have and was voted down by the membership

2 I think it would be counter productive to limit it to the WA standard now if you mean limiting it to the current 27 series arrows that would be fine I think since it would affect nobody really

3 short of painting in the lines, I don't see how this would help attendance, maybe have the club targets inspected so shot up 3D's don't get used

4 there is no Professional division in Canada anywhere so not really sure what you mean here. I believe that Dietmar and Fiona are there only registered Professionals in the NFAA/IFAA from Canada

5 No argument there at all but what to cut?? we do have inplace a rule that states that if a certain number doesn't shoot in a particular category that the board can remove it, not sure if it has ever been done though.

Blake has it correct in that those who take the game seriously will always be on top, this issue is actually getting archers to show up and getting the Host clubs to run it as a Championship some do some not so much, if that gets solved along with some sort of stability of 3D equipment and rules we will be ahead


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## rdneckhillbilly

CLASSICHUNTER said:


> ok guys this thread is to voice your opinion on what you would like to see changed for 3-d shoots.. simple point form answers ..*and if someone comes up with a off the wall request .bite your tongue and let it go*..I`ll start this fun fest..lets keep it to the quick 5 items you strongly feel to make tournies better
> 
> 1 --- 1 minuet per person to shoot bino`s allowed you have 1 minuet
> 
> 2---- discussions to a minimum when scoring at target score and get out of there
> 
> 3---- policing of course so shooters move at a reasonable quick pace club responsibility
> 
> 4---- simple item water or drinks on courses some of us are old and not too healthy
> 
> 5---- simple final results criteria a lot of clubs take a hour or more to transcribe results before awards handed out...and maybe score cards have to be handed in by a certain time depending on registration numbers
> 
> ok guys take it away and some of you may repeat some items but this then almost makes it a pole and could be useful for associations to change items mentioned ..


Great idea Ted...just not sure some on here can abide.


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## ontario3-d'r

The major thing that I would really like to see, is a shotgun start in the afternoon. It really would not be that hard. If you start on target 8 in the morning, you start on 28 in the afternoon. The biggest issue that I see with the no shotgun in the afternoon, is that different groups take much longer lunches than others. Then, the groups that start their second round earlier than others, have to wait for everyone to finish. If there was a second round shotgun, groups should all finish at the same time. While scorecards are being added, the draw prizes could be done. Another topic, (let the *****ing begin), is the "Pro" division. The reason the OPEN division was created was so that the archers that shoot above average, can compete against each other. There are many archers that shoot the BHO and MBR that have no reason shooting those divisions. Above average archers, usually sponsored in some way, should compete against each other -regardless of their equipment choice - PERIOD. I know for a fact that dozens of people have stopped coming to the events because they have no chance of placing. If the main goal for Ontario Shoots is more attendance, some of those people will come back if all above average shooters competed against each other. I understand the argument that if people practiced more, they could be more competitive. That is true. However, a 350shooter can have a good day and shoot 370. With the above average shooters in the OPEN division, that person has a chance to place once in a while. Keeps them coming back. You can only have your butt handed to you so many times before you stop coming. Besides, if the top ten archers competed against each other weekly, those guys would get better too. Let the fun begin. LOL


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## rockin_johny

That's just crazy talk Tim. Get back in the box hahaha


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## Bow bandit

The whole speed thing gets overplayed, take Dave and I for example he shoots about 20fps slower that I do but we are always within a few points of each other, yardage is still critical but anyone who shoots a lot knows how to judge yardage. With the bows available today even someone with a 27 in draw can get 315 fps. My set up is what it is because I like to shoot 70lbs my arrows match that set up well, I could go to a 27 series arrow but I see no need as I get what I want out of a 23 series. It's not like guys are going out and pushing there bows to the limit for speed, I am we'll over 5grs per lbs without pushing the limits. I don't even shoot the fastest bow in the line. Speed is great if you can control it, but making good yardage calls and great shots will win over speed every day.


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## YankeeRebel

Follow the ASA format and it will work. It has been proven. :thumb:


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## wellis1840

Another possible way to speed up a tournament..... When some members of a group are scoring and removing arrows from the 3D target, have the rest of the group hunt for arrows that missed. Once the scoring and arrow removal is complete the group moves on to the next target, searching ends at that point. Any unfound arrows can be searched for by the owner after the competition.


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## Robert Piette

ontario3-d'r said:


> The major thing that I would really like to see, is a shotgun start in the afternoon. It really would not be that hard. If you start on target 8 in the morning, you start on 28 in the afternoon. The biggest issue that I see with the no shotgun in the afternoon, is that different groups take much longer lunches than others. Then, the groups that start their second round earlier than others, have to wait for everyone to finish. If there was a second round shotgun, groups should all finish at the same time. While scorecards are being added, the draw prizes could be done. Another topic, (let the *****ing begin), is the "Pro" division. The reason the OPEN division was created was so that the archers that shoot above average, can compete against each other. There are many archers that shoot the BHO and MBR that have no reason shooting those divisions. Above average archers, usually sponsored in some way, should compete against each other -regardless of their equipment choice - PERIOD. I know for a fact that dozens of people have stopped coming to the events because they have no chance of placing. If the main goal for Ontario Shoots is more attendance, some of those people will come back if all above average shooters competed against each other. I understand the argument that if people practiced more, they could be more competitive. That is true. However, a 350shooter can have a good day and shoot 370. With the above average shooters in the OPEN division, that person has a chance to place once in a while. Keeps them coming back. You can only have your butt handed to you so many times before you stop coming. Besides, if the top ten archers competed against each other weekly, those guys would get better too. Let the fun begin. LOL


Maybe the OAA could establish a ranking system for 3D, similar to the target ranking system. Those in the Top Ten must compete in the Open division at Provicials if they wish to shoot the event.


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## Hoytalpha35

Shotgun starts are the way to go. I really hate the trickle starts. You hardly see other shooters sometimes, it drags on. We have run trickle start on our indoor 3D and you end up standing around waiting for long periods of time. Last I heard we were going to run shotgun starts which will be a huge improvement.


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## ontario3-d'r

I think that a ranking system could have some merit. It would be an interesting topic around a fire pit some night. It may be a little harder than a target archer ranking system. The fita range in Caledon is exactly the same as the one in Sault Ste. Marie. Every single 3D range has a different level of difficulty. It is much easier to rank shooters when 50 meters is 50 meters, no matter where you are shooting. Personally speaking, and this is just my thought, I believe that if an archer is sponsored they should have to shoot open. If you are good enough to be a staff shooter, then shoot against the other staff shooters. Of course there are many great shooters that choose not to be sponsored, hence the name OPEN. Anyone can play.


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## Bow bandit

It's a great theory to put all of the sponsored or top guys in one class but who polices it! Does this include shop staff? How can you force someone to pay the extra money for open? Cause lets face it there could be 20 sponsored archers but the same 3 or 4 will always win and the others will just fade away and no longer shoot. I have seen many staff shooters over the years that could not even come close to competing with the top in there division. The long and short of it is Ego, and if Ego don't win he don't play! This is why other classes are formed like in ASA there is 3 open classes with move up rules before you go pro and semi pro! Everyone finds Thier place. The same thing could be said about experienced 3D archers shooting K 50! Dave and I shoot against former pros and semi pros all the time in the IBO, you just have to work harder and learn how to win!


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## DssBB

We have ran shotgun starts both in the morning in the afternoon and find it quite effective. With average tournament attendances around 125-150 shooters in all classes, having them assigned starting targets throughout each loop where compound and traditional shooters are staggered really helps speed things up as well. Having 3-5 groups of compound shooters followed by a couple of groups of traditional shooters seems to create back logs. With the right mix of both compound groups and traditional groups, the flow through the course seems to be very consistent and the shooters for the most part are completed around the same time frames. 
Having proper course layouts and planned target assignments also helps a lot and minimizes unneeded walking between targets. Properly marked courses and pathways would also greatly benefit in speeding up times.
Blake is 100% correct and regardless of which sport you compete, those who practice enough and have exposure to enough courses and targets will excel regardless of which equipment and in the case of archery, how much speed their arrows travel at. In all honesty, Blake, Dave, Danny, Tim and a few others work their butts off to be at the top of game and although we may never be able to beat them, the level at which they are shooting and the scores in which they are posting provides us all with a benchmark in which to aim and improve too.
As a prime example, I shot the best round I could at York in the spring and was quite proud of the score I posted only to find out in the end that Andrew posted a score of 25 points higher. Although, proud of that accomplishment of putting together a great score for myself, the drive to improve my own ability grew dramatically even though I know I can not produce scores of the likes of Andrew.
Without leaders in our own competing classes, the drive to succeed and excel is not always going to be present.


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## Xs24-7

It's hard to answer, as I'm not sure of the intent of the question. If its to make the current group of 3-d shooters happier....change what you like,
It won't matter, someone will always be unhappy.
If its to grow the sport, your asking the wrong people. The people you should be asking are the regular every day bowhunter. they will tell you they dont now about tour event. those that come out will tell you they are uncomfortable/dont want to compete, etc.3-d has moved away from its bowhunting roots, and now is an afterthought to the vast majority of bow hunters. Most don't even know it exists.
If you truly want to add numbers to your event, make it simple. Less rules is better. Less restrictions, inclusive rules. And then tell people about your event. Don't just rely on an add in the newsletter or a page on the Internet. Engage your local bow hunters, and give them a reason to show up.


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## crazymoose

I would like to see 3D courses lean more towards actual hunting shot scenarios.
Shoot across grassy fields, shoot through some trash. Make it a little more extreme. Moving targets,pop ups.
Open shooting lanes take away some of the effects.
Utilize some more of the natural surroundings, place deadfalls,stumps,etc.
Have some shots where you shoot from a ground blind or shoot from a sitting position in a canoe.
Use your imagination and I think it will fun back into 3D shoots.


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## JDoupe

Robert Piette said:


> For more important shoots like the Provincials or the Triple Crown shoots (I am sure some will argue they are not important) it would be a good idea to enforce through organization. I know we are peer grouped at the Provincials on the second day, but it would be nice to see this extended to the first day and the two subsequent triple crown shoots.


This was brought up as a motion a couple of years ago at the AGM. It was passed as a motion.......but has never been acted upon. All legs of the triple crown are supposed to be peer grouped.


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## JDoupe

Great thread as well!


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## Bow bandit

I have an idea!


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## Bow bandit

It may help grow the sport!


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## Bow bandit

Really it could be good!


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## rdneckhillbilly

Drum roll pls....


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## DssBB

Come on Blake....spill the beans as currently, you're only growing your post count.


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## Bow bandit

Ok, ok, here it goes! Anyone who shot the OAA 3D Championships last year would know the price was a little high, at least from my point of view.
We also know the amount of new archers coming out seems to be pretty low, this could be for various reasons but I personally think its because we don't do enough to promote archery outside of those who already partake. 
So why couldn't we offer a discount to everyone that brings a new archer along with them to the championship and allow the newbie to shoot for a reduced price as a guest. 

I bet we all know a hunter that already has a bow that does not belong to an archery club or has every shot an archery tournament. 
This could also help membership at the club level as well. 

We already have k 50 so the newbie could use his range finder.

We could also try to get a good prize such as a bow and do a draw only for those who brought an newbie or two bows and the host and newbie both win just for showing up. 

Bounce it around cut it up whatever you need but it could help expose some new blood.


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## Bigjono

Bow bandit said:


> Ok, ok, here it goes! Anyone who shot the OAA 3D Championships last year would know the price was a little high, at least from my point of view.
> We also know the amount of new archers coming out seems to be pretty low, this could be for various reasons but I personally think its because we don't do enough to promote archery outside of those who already partake.
> So why couldn't we offer a discount to everyone that brings a new archer along with them to the championship and allow the newbie to shoot for a reduced price as a guest.
> 
> I bet we all know a hunter that already has a bow that does not belong to an archery club or has every shot an archery tournament.
> This could also help membership at the club level as well.
> 
> We already have k 50 so the newbie could use his range finder.
> 
> We could also try to get a good prize such as a bow and do a draw only for those who brought an newbie or two bows and the host and newbie both win just for showing up.
> 
> Bounce it around cut it up whatever you need but it could help expose some new blood.


I kind of like that idea but most noobs would be happier starting out with something nearer to home. Ontario seems like a big place with large zones so why don't you have zone 3D champs to qualify for the OAA champs. The bigger the class over the last few years, the more spots up for grabs. That way when you get to the provincials you know that you and everyone else has earned their way there. I admit numbers might be down for the first couple of times but anything is worth a try.
I also think a freestyle class for the Oly rig recurve guys to try and tempt them over too.

I know I get a bit wound up and vocal sometimes but all I want is to get strong fields to shoot against every week not turn up and find no class or no other shooters. Archery is huge right now so we need to ride the wave and if that means a major rethink, so be it.


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## Bow bandit

Or we could just run the hunger games! The club door gets beat down when those movies come out.


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## Bigjono

Bow bandit said:


> Or we could just run the hunger games! The club door gets beat down when those movies come out.


Now there's an idea. I predict my lesson schedule and member enquiries going through the roof again in Nov.


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## JDoupe

Blake.........that is one of the best ideas I have heard in a long time.

Kudos to you..........


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## DssBB

I am all for having some sort of Pro-Am tournament up here. We have enough top quality shooters in Ontario from the various disciplines and shooting classes and with the number of new archers taking up the sport in the past couple of years, having a tournament if the top dogs are willing, where amateur shooters can be grouped with those experienced shooters utilizing the time to hopefully gain some knowledge of the sport of 3D and increase their own willingness to improve and become more involved in tournaments.


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## FiFi

Bow bandit said:


> Ok, ok, here it goes! Anyone who shot the OAA 3D Championships last year would know the price was a little high, at least from my point of view.
> We also know the amount of new archers coming out seems to be pretty low, this could be for various reasons but I personally think its because we don't do enough to promote archery outside of those who already partake.
> So why couldn't we offer a discount to everyone that brings a new archer along with them to the championship and allow the newbie to shoot for a reduced price as a guest.
> 
> I bet we all know a hunter that already has a bow that does not belong to an archery club or has every shot an archery tournament.
> This could also help membership at the club level as well.
> 
> We already have k 50 so the newbie could use his range finder.
> 
> We could also try to get a good prize such as a bow and do a draw only for those who brought an newbie or two bows and the host and newbie both win just for showing up.
> 
> Bounce it around cut it up whatever you need but it could help expose some new blood.




You do realize that the Host club can do all of that if they want to, nothing is stopping them, heck at one time just about every club did that. Today the willingness to do half of what you posted seems far off. We need to remember that Host club runs the event not someone from the OAA Executive


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## FiFi

One thing we should think of is maybe asking the OAA to set up a strategy session where we could set up a 2 day meeting with as many people that are willing to attend and throw ideas around. We have done this type of meeting 3 times that I know of. This way we get something on paper to work with and be able to find common areas and maybe see what we are actually capable of doing and not doing and most importantly why


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## Bow bandit

I encourage all clubs to try something like this, I have never witnessed it myself but I am sure someone has tried it or some variation of it. But it would be great to see championship style events like the YCB classic, pioneer, and the OAA past 300 archers like it used to be. Ted is on the right track with his tournament, maybe this work for the p&p as well.


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## Stash

Who gets to maintain and distribute the database of newbies?


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## Bow bandit

It's a pretty small community still, I am pretty sure it would police itself pretty well. The OAA already has a list of members, so new archers would have never been registered in the past. Pretty easy to track, plus is it that bad if one slips through the crack, it's still bringing up attendance.


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## CaptainT

I actually think Blake has a great idea here. The list of who is new wouldn't be that difficult to compile. The results from as far back as 2004 are readily and easily available so if they aren't on that list then I'd consider them new.


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## Moosetalker

Heck, I enjoy shooting with Blake in the same group. If I happen to be having a good day and I am on Blakes butt you get to hear every excuse that man or woman has ever come up with why he is not hitting all the 11"s at every target. LMAQ !!! Doesn't happen to often, shooting close to Blakes scores that is, but if you want him to shoot with you you just have to razz him a bit before the shoot. Good conversation on the thread. Hey Blakester, how goes the giant whitetails of King Twp so far this year?


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## GenesisAlpha

FiFi said:


> One thing we should think of is maybe asking the OAA to set up a strategy session where we could set up a 2 day meeting with as many people that are willing to attend and throw ideas around. We have done this type of meeting 3 times that I know of. This way we get something on paper to work with and be able to find common areas and maybe see what we are actually capable of doing and not doing and most importantly why


This is a great Idea except for distance, time and getting the numbers up to get a good cross section of ideas on the table. Again this is where ZONE MEETINGS should be held every year before the AGM. That way Zone Reps bring these ideas to the rules/bylaws committees and then they get put to board. If there is support it can be brought to the AGM. We need the system structure to work for us not who has the ability to show up all the time to the AGM........................the Same don't make for Change.


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## CLASSICHUNTER

I`VE working for a couple of days and boys this thread is doing well and civil so far...Bruce maybe instead of a 2 day meeting we can use this thread as long as we stay on topic ...most ideas are achievable remember guys its to speed up tournaments ..personally awards and door prizes at end if not then you have only the award winners hanging around ..and this is also when clubs can announce when their shoot is and hype it up..thats how I get good numbers ..you have to sell your tournament to get good attendance...also while scores are being tallied in a reasonable time frame novelty shoots raise money for the club and people can work the crowd for the 50/50...my tournament had 375 dollars for the winner and the same amount for the club. .just some thoiughts ... Keep it going guys ....and I think a guide line should be written to hand to clubs and to be used as a base plate...titled HOW TO RUN A SUCCESSFUL 3-D SHOOT ... I know there is stuff on the oaa site but people don`t want to search it out ..they want the short version ...lol lol lol


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## Robert Piette

Something I don't see in Ontario that seems to be a part of many of the shoots in the states, is Team competition. A team category maybe a good way of adding some novelty to 3D tournaments and boost the numbers, especially if the team configuration has to made up of different defined classes, limiting the possibility of a bunch of "Top" shooters grouping together. 

Example:
(1) Male - BHR/BHO/Open
(1) Women - BHR/BHO/Open
(1) Junior/Cadet
(1) Hunter or Limited


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## wellis1840

*HEY*, what about those that shoot crossbow? :confused2:



Robert Piette said:


> Something I don't see in Ontario that seems to be a part of many of the shoots in the states, is Team competition. A team category maybe a good way of adding some novelty to 3D tournaments and boost the numbers, especially if the team configuration has to made up of different defined classes, limiting the possibility of a bunch of "Top" shooters grouping together.
> 
> Example:
> (1) Male - BHR/BHO/Open
> (1) Women - BHR/BHO/Open
> (1) Junior/Cadet
> (1) Hunter or Limited


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## Bigjono

Or those shooting anything but compound?
I think a team event for the bigger shoots is a great idea.
If all the shoots kept results and submitted them to the OAA they could be posted on the website under a "Shoot Reports" tab and also help establish a ranking system. You could also try a handicap system based on that. Those of us capable of winning 90% if the time get a points handicap to give less experienced shooters a shout. We do that at our club so even the noobs can walk off with the cash on our Sunday money shoots.


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## mhlbdonny

CLASSICHUNTER said:


> ok guys this thread is to voice your opinion on what you would like to see changed for 3-d shoots.. simple point form answers ..and if someone comes up with a off the wall request .bite your tongue and let it go..I`ll start this fun fest..lets keep it to the quick 5 items you strongly feel to make tournies better
> 
> 1 --- 1 minuet per person to shoot bino`s allowed you have 1 minuet
> 
> 2---- discussions to a minimum when scoring at target score and get out of there
> 
> 3---- policing of course so shooters move at a reasonable quick pace club responsibility
> 
> 4---- simple item water or drinks on courses some of us are old and not too healthy
> 
> 5---- simple final results criteria a lot of clubs take a hour or more to transcribe results before awards handed out...and maybe score cards have to be handed in by a certain time depending on registration numbers
> 
> ok guys take it away and some of you may repeat some items but this then almost makes it a pole and could be useful for associations to change items mentioned ..


As to your first item, I think it would be rather silly to see you dancing a minuet at a 3d shoot. I'd rather see shooters limited to one minute.


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## FiFi

If we are going to stay on topic, I think what ever proposal is posted should also have WHO will run it or look after it

ie, If a current OAA member brings to and signs up a new member at any Provincial Championships that person and new member will pay a reduced entry fee (how much to be decided later). Who should look after this, the current membership chair

get the idea. At least this way we could have something tangible to work with, posting only proposals leaves out a very large portion of the equation, larger than most are willing to acknowledge

Sean


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## GenesisAlpha

Robert Piette said:


> Something I don't see in Ontario that seems to be a part of many of the shoots in the states, is Team competition. A team category maybe a good way of adding some novelty to 3D tournaments and boost the numbers, especially if the team configuration has to made up of different defined classes, limiting the possibility of a bunch of "Top" shooters grouping together.
> 
> Example:
> (1) Male - BHR/BHO/Open
> (1) Women - BHR/BHO/Open
> (1) Junior/Cadet
> (1) Hunter or Limited


We had a mixed team shoot during the season and it went very well. The trophy is the Bea and Garnett Galloway. 1st 2nd and 3rd place got medals and the winning team is on the trophy. We will be doing it again this year and it will be in the shoot listings. 6 teams entered and we hope to see more this year. Shoot will be hosted by two clubs this year.


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## XTRMN8R

here is my idea- lets form a 3d committee and let the guys who attend and shoot 3d make the policies and deal with the general issues surrounding 3d. In case you all have not noticed most of the clubs that host 3d have fallen away from the oaa and yet for the oaa 3d still draws the largest crowds ( I believe). In short I personally feel that there many folks who have their own good ideas on what should be done but my opinion is that we need to follow the lead of the folks who lead the sport of 3d in general, and North of Alabama that is IBO. I don't subscribe to all their ideas but as an organization I think it could only benefit us to shadow them if not align with them completely.


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## Stash

From a procedural point of view, the OAA Board has to set up such a committee, and they can get around to it at the next Board Meeting. Someone needs to present the idea to the Board members through the proper channels. We've talked about this here before and it's been explained that a forum discussion is not enough. That's if you want this to be an "official" OAA committee, and I'm sure there could be some money set aside to help cover peoples' expenses.

That being said, there's no reason that people who are interested right now while the discussion is hot can't get together and plan something out unofficially, and come up with some good ideas to present to the Board on their own, just as members. I guarantee the Board will listen.

So, who's volunteering? I don't shoot 3D, so I'm not qualified.


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## Bigjono

XTRMN8R said:


> here is my idea- lets form a 3d committee and let the guys who attend and shoot 3d make the policies and deal with the general issues surrounding 3d. In case you all have not noticed most of the clubs that host 3d have fallen away from the oaa and yet for the oaa 3d still draws the largest crowds ( I believe). In short I personally feel that there many folks who have their own good ideas on what should be done but my opinion is that we need to follow the lead of the folks who lead the sport of 3d in general, and North of Alabama that is IBO. I don't subscribe to all their ideas but as an organization I think it could only benefit us to shadow them if not align with them completely.


I agree, WA3D is a non event, NFAA don't do 3D very well so what is there to lose if we try something new. With their shoots in CA and TX doing so well they might be interested in talking about bringing it here.
A 3D committee is a good idea too as long as it's made up of 3D shooters. I would be happy to get involved in some way.


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## crkelly

1. I like the idea of a team challenge and think it could benefit clubs in the off season (winter).

2. Shotgun starts are a great way in saving time but only works if the archer to target ratio equates.

3. I feel that to impose a one minute rule on new and inexperienced archers will only do more harm then good. All to often I have seen targets that look like a large garden rake has been used all around it ??? enough said. I remember that feeling when not sure if I will have enough arrows to complete the course. Lets not made it harder then it need to be on our new archers.

4. Really like the idea of a team challenge. LOL


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## thunderbolt

1-Team challenge can work! At least it used to a few years ago and it was fun.
2-Agree that a 1 minute time limit is too much of a restriction, current rule is fine. The real issue with time limits is enforcement. You can't expect clubs to have enough volunteer's to handle this chore. Everyone should be responsible enough to take care of this...good luck with that!

Adding more tasks for a clubs volunteer base won't help anything, if anything it will burn the few volunteer's out even quicker...:wink:


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## JDoupe

Bigjono said:


> I agree, WA3D is a non event,...


To some.....it is a very valid event.

You should really have prefaced this with "In my opinion..."...then you could say whatever you want.




To some.....it is a very valid event.


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## FiFi

Bigjono said:


> I agree, WA3D is a non event, NFAA don't do 3D very well so what is there to lose if we try something new. With their shoots in CA and TX doing so well they might be interested in talking about bringing it here.
> A 3D committee is a good idea too as long as it's made up of 3D shooters. I would be happy to get involved in some way.[/QUOTE
> 
> 
> who gets to decide what and who a 3D shooters is?????? We have IBO divisions now and a 2min time limit whats missing


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## JDoupe

RU I'm guessing........


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## MMBowhtr

XTRMN8R said:


> here is my idea- lets form a 3d committee and let the guys who attend and shoot 3d make the policies and deal with the general issues surrounding 3d. In case you all have not noticed most of the clubs that host 3d have fallen away from the oaa and yet for the oaa 3d still draws the largest crowds ( I believe). In short I personally feel that there many folks who have their own good ideas on what should be done but my opinion is that we need to follow the lead of the folks who lead the sport of 3d in general, and North of Alabama that is IBO. I don't subscribe to all their ideas but as an organization I think it could only benefit us to shadow them if not align with them completely.



Having shot both IBO Worlds and ASA Classic for the last 3 years , I can say will out any doubt what so ever that the IBO has nothing on the ASA at all in any respect and I live downtown IBOville. You guys have something very special up there, that booklet you put out is top notch and shows just how much bang for your buck you get. Down here you may have to join up to 7 archery Organisations just to have access to everything you have there. Both the IBO Worlds and ASA Classic are World events in name only having archers from 3 other Countries shooting doesn't constitute a World event just a National event with visitors. Sorry if I have intruded into your conversation but I feel that you need to look harder at what you are trying to do


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## Bigjono

FiFi said:


> Bigjono said:
> 
> 
> 
> I agree, WA3D is a non event, NFAA don't do 3D very well so what is there to lose if we try something new. With their shoots in CA and TX doing so well they might be interested in talking about bringing it here.
> A 3D committee is a good idea too as long as it's made up of 3D shooters. I would be happy to get involved in some way.[/QUOTE
> 
> 
> who gets to decide what and who a 3D shooters is?????? We have IBO divisions now and a 2min time limit whats missing
> 
> 
> 
> A 3D shooter would be someone who predominantly shoots 3D.
Click to expand...


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## Bigjono

MMBowhtr said:


> Having shot both IBO Worlds and ASA Classic for the last 3 years , I can say will out any doubt what so ever that the IBO has nothing on the ASA at all in any respect and I live downtown IBOville. You guys have something very special up there, that booklet you put out is top notch and shows just how much bang for your buck you get. Down here you may have to join up to 7 archery Organisations just to have access to everything you have there. Both the IBO Worlds and ASA Classic are World events in name only having archers from 3 other Countries shooting doesn't constitute a World event just a National event with visitors. Sorry if I have intruded into your conversation but I feel that you need to look harder at what you are trying to do


I agree the iBO is far from perfect but ASA is nowhere near here so no one really shoots it and shoot distances are even worse that the iBO. Guys moaning that everything is at 17yds. 
3D is really bottomed out here and I think everyone is just brainstorming ideas and opinions to put it back on the map. With the big American field shooters coming over to play too I think the iBO will grow over the next decade and WA3D will shrink even more.


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## FiFi

Not sure where you get your information, but haven't seen any of the top field guys shooting IBO 3D, Mike Leiter in senior Pro maybe as for WA3D shrinking, the results don't bear that out, they started with 150+ and 13 Countries and are now approaching 300 and 27 Countries. You also need to realise that when Ont had the most 3D participation we were not aligned with anyone inparticular we used OAA/IFAA BH equipment rules and a 280fps rule, now we have IBO equipment and 5gr/lb or 290fps. What we need is stability in rules and equipment, there is a lot more at play here than who or what we are aligned with


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## Bigjono

FiFi said:


> Not sure where you get your information, but haven't seen any of the top field guys shooting IBO 3D, Mike Leiter in senior Pro maybe as for WA3D shrinking, the results don't bear that out, they started with 150+ and 13 Countries and are now approaching 300 and 27 Countries. You also need to realise that when Ont had the most 3D participation we were not aligned with anyone inparticular we used OAA/IFAA BH equipment rules and a 280fps rule, now we have IBO equipment and 5gr/lb or 290fps. What we need is stability in rules and equipment, there is a lot more at play here than who or what we are aligned with


Guys like Dana Chatoo, Larry Yien, Alan Eagleton, Ben Rogers etc all coming in to shoot iBO now. I get my info because they are friends if mine. This will help encourage others to come play too I think.


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## Robert Piette

I think it is best to focus on small achievable goals for improving the product we have, rather then making grand statements like, let's affiliate with the IBO or ASA, or completely change our equipment divisions and rules.


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## Bigjono

Robert Piette said:


> I think it is best to focus on small achievable goals for improving the product we have, rather then making grand statements like, let's affiliate with the IBO or ASA, or completely change our equipment divisions and rules.


Ok, which goals shall we start with, any movement is good I say.
Many years ago in the UK all archery was run by GNAS which is affiliated to FITA. They were and are basically a target bunch who had no real interest or enthusiasm for 3D. End result, the 3D shooters went off and formed the NFAS which is a thriving federation which puts on the best 3D shoots I've ever been to. My point is, perhaps an O3D federation might be an option too. If we are talking about the future and advancement of 3D in Ontario and Canada then all ideas should be on the table really.


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## crazymoose

Are we talking Nationally or Provincially?
If it's nationally : Canadian 3D Federation.
If's it's provincial : Ontario 3D Association.
If an annual membership fee is applied then take a portion of the fee and set it aside to accumulate, to provide financial aid to those who will represent Team Canada on the world stage at 3d shoots.
If successful nationally, then perhaps one day we may be able to provide all the funding that is necessary.
Once established, then pursue corporate sponsorship to build an account for Team Canada.
If provincial, then a portion of the membership fee can be set aside for provincial 3D shooters to apply for assistance.
Keeping it simple but clear,establish a new set of rules and regulations.
As mentioned earlier there have been some great ideas put forth.
Like Bigjono said, put the ideas on the table.
Just my 2 cents worth.


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## FiFi

Bigjono said:


> Ok, which goals shall we start with, any movement is good I say.
> Many years ago in the UK all archery was run by GNAS which is affiliated to FITA. They were and are basically a target bunch who had no real interest or enthusiasm for 3D. End result, the 3D shooters went off and formed the NFAS which is a thriving federation which puts on the best 3D shoots I've ever been to. My point is, perhaps an O3D federation might be an option too. If we are talking about the future and advancement of 3D in Ontario and Canada then all ideas should be on the table really.


So your option is to have 2 competing archery organisations that host 3D tournaments??? exactly how would this generate more participation??


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## wellis1840

Ontario 3D Association…. I like it! 

The answers on the is forum, for years, from members speaking for the OAA concerning 3D is that we are whiners and they, the OAA, can’t give 3D’ers the support that is suggested here. 

“It can’t be done, it has been tried before” is the standard response.

One of those people recently posted stats showing that only a small percentage of the OAA membership actually shoot 3D. If the 3D shooters left to join the Ontario 3D Association we wouldn’t be missed, according to those numbers. The OAA could then concentrate 100% on field/target/FITA and not be bothered by or spend any money on…the whiners. Everyone would be happy.

Great idea!


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## FiFi

wellis1840 said:


> Ontario 3D Association…. I like it!
> 
> The answers on the is forum, for years, from members speaking for the OAA concerning 3D is that we are whiners and they, the OAA, can’t give 3D’ers the support that is suggested here.
> 
> “It can’t be done, it has been tried before” is the standard response.
> 
> One of those people recently posted stats showing that only a small percentage of the OAA membership actually shoot 3D. If the 3D shooters left to join the Ontario 3D Association we wouldn’t be missed, according to those numbers. The OAA could then concentrate 100% on field/target/FITA and not be bothered by or spend any money on…the whiners. Everyone would be happy.
> 
> Great idea!


Well if that is what you want to do great go for it, it will number 4 or 5 times that a start up 3D organisation was formed in Ontario, and others including an IBO chapter started in the 3D hayday, you are also assuming that all the 3D shooters today will automatically leave the OAA for this new start up. In the mean time the OAA will still host 3d events and still fund a team to the AC Nationals the same amount they do for target.


Its been asked time and time again, what piece of the equation for 3D is missing, we have IBO rules and equipment for 3D now, we fund or partially fund a 3D team to the AC Nationals. Whats the magic fix ?

So far Blakes suggestion of reduced entry fees for signing a new member seems the best one yet

Sean


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## stjoebowhunter

who gets to decide what and who a 3D shooters is?????? We have IBO divisions now and a 2min time limit whats missing[/QUOTE]

Whats missing is that IBO shoots different distances in their divisions so having the same distances up here would help keep our set ups the same for up here and down there!!


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## GenesisAlpha

I have no problem nor does anyone I know with the cost to join the OAA. So reduced cost does nothing for membership except reduce funding per member. People look for what their dollars are doing that hits home. People look for the voice of their organization and the issues related being addressed. Staring another a organization is just a non-starter based on logistics and volunteer base............so far Stash put it out there for those willing to sit on a rule committee to step up, so far I have not seen to many takers.

If you want 3D to return to the past glory years (which the clubs would love because of the cost of targets) then build the areas in the OAA that fall short of your expectations, but you must make the first step, volunteer!

Our club started cash classes because of Ted and Blake giving information here and it has been a success. We will build more on that. 

Again, though I have been ignored on here the problem with the OAA is the lack of communication at the regional level. We need to put the structure to work for us. ZONE MEETINGS (at least two per year before AGM) were the reps who are appointed have to hold meetings and gather the info on changes and issues. The AGM is not enough to cover the issues we have. Not only in 3D but in the Bow Hunting end of our sport which in all due respect we have no voice. Think of how many bow hunters are out there right now who have no voice through OFAH. 

New ideas = New People. But when its the same old issues over and over again by the old guard and the change masses I see no end to the problem. You can not fix broke in two hours (AGM). 

Less than 50 members control the OAA, truth. Yet it is supposed to be a democratic structure. Is 50 at a meeting even a legit number to vote on any motion or rule or bylaw change given a membership of about a thousand? 

It is time to grow the OAA, but we can not do it here.


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## Topper1018

Put your organization together with shotgun morning and afternoon (talking specifically, provincial and bigger events, local clubs do as you like) and get everyone back at the same time. Total the open class cards first and give us a 5 target SHOOTDOWN! Make the top dogs sweat it out and bring the 14 ring into play! Let the other archers be entertained and count the rest of the cards and prepare the awards in the meantime. Its an ASA idea but i garantee you, everyone likes to be entertained, and the cream will rise with guys that can perform under pressure. give new archers someone to aspire to be like,right in front of them, instead of havceing to see something like that on youtube from an ASA event. Interest will grow

Open not enough shooters? fine. make it a separate event and pull in the top guys from other classes.


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## Stash

GenesisAlpha said:


> Less than 50 members control the OAA, truth. Yet it is supposed to be a democratic structure. Is 50 at a meeting even a legit number to vote on any motion or rule or bylaw change given a membership of about a thousand?


Well, seeing as we live in a country which seems to believe that 308 members of the House of Commons is a legit number to vote on rules on behalf of 35 million, I don't see a problem with that. Although I agree that a central AGM isn't the fairest way we could do things, but in a huge province, what's an affordable alternative that allows "true" democracy? 

Archery Canada's votes are 1 per provincial association. Maybe the OAA could have a sort of "Parliament" with the zones broken further down into maybe 15 or so regions based on membership numbers with one elected rep per region. Regional reps could run local meetings to get a feel for what the membership wants, and represent them at the central OAA meeting.

Lots pf great ideas being posted here, but still not many takers on volunteers actually willing to do it. I'll accept a position as an appointed OAA Senator (as long as there's an expense account).


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## Lionel

I have a comment regarding 3d's in general.
Golf is a very popular sport. I can phone a few friend and we can book a t time and then enjoy a round and our time together. Scores are important but only to ourselves.
At 3ds it is all about the tournament, the rules, equipment ,classes and who wins the trophy.
We might get more people involved if we get the casual shooter out and have them and their friends have a great time (even if they didn't turn in a score card). Some may develop into competitors.
But, I know, they will be in the way and disrupt the flow of the tournament.

My comments are not in jest and I mean no harm. It just seems that the tournament is more important than the game.
For Provincial and National gatherings rules must be but for club events cut a little slack and give the regular guy and his friends enjoy the day. There is room for both.
Lionel


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## Stash

This whole thread is _*about*_ tournaments.

There is nothing to prevent anyone from going to their club for the day to shoot 3D any way they want. I can phone a friend and go out to my club any time I want and enjoy a round together, rules or no rules. And I don't need to book a tee time. 

But if there's a tournament, it needs to be run as a tournament. Same thing for golf - try going out to just play for fun when there's a corporate or competitive event going on. They won't let you on the course unless your registered.


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## GenesisAlpha

> Well, seeing as we live in a country which seems to believe that 308 members of the House of Commons is a legit number to vote on rules on behalf of 35 million, I don't see a problem with that. Although I agree that a central AGM isn't the fairest way we could do things, but in a huge province, what's an affordable alternative that allows "true" democracy?


Simple rules are either the Bylaws have the needed % present at the AGM to constitute a quorum or you have a simple majority of 50% +1 of the total membership to vote. We Elect members of parliament to represent us in that house, different than the mostly appointed board of the OAA where the first rule should apply.

The tread I do believe was about changing rules or making new ones to help get more participation in 3D. The OAA which is or looked at by a few as the governing body in Ontario that makes the rules we live by for 3D if we want to hold their shoots. Seems that some do not like or believe these OAA rules are doing right by members and non-members hence the need to post frustration here.

So if we want things done that will advance the need we must look at the system to address the issues...................................one two hour meeting per year. No wonder OFAH speaks for archers they hold zone meeting once a month at my club. I think archers should be speaking for archers issues across the province hunting or target.

I guess if I were an ELITE archer folks might respect what I am saying...............................but maybe that's why we do not have the OAA we need, the common folk gave up speaking out or voting.

P.S. One thing Stash missed about the meeting was about online voting...........................................maybe a light at the end of the tunnel.

I am out of this one have a good time all.

Bob


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## Bigjono

FiFi said:


> Well if that is what you want to do great go for it, it will number 4 or 5 times that a start up 3D organisation was formed in Ontario, and others including an IBO chapter started in the 3D hayday, you are also assuming that all the 3D shooters today will automatically leave the OAA for this new start up. In the mean time the OAA will still host 3d events and still fund a team to the AC Nationals the same amount they do for target.
> 
> 
> Its been asked time and time again, what piece of the equation for 3D is missing, we have IBO rules and equipment for 3D now, we fund or partially fund a 3D team to the AC Nationals. Whats the magic fix ?
> 
> So far Blakes suggestion of reduced entry fees for signing a new member seems the best one yet
> 
> Sean


This is an ideas thread, no one has categorically said that's what they want but it's fair to expect all ideas to be put on the table.
The fact that these threads go on says that there is a feeling that 3D needs looking at by the OAA and 3D archers are probably the best ones to comment. The feeling I get from talking to guys at 3D shoots is that the OAA is a target federation with 3D tagged on the back. I have spoken a few times to El Presidenty and I know this isn't true but I do think something needs to happen to get some cohesion back into 3D. Perhaps it's little tweaks here and there or perhaps it's time to tear up the blue print and start from scratch, who knows.


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## DssBB

With regards to 3D archery in Canada and as a comparison to what the IBO is doing in the States, would it be looking at what Pro-3D (http://www.pro3d.ca/) has already established up here. I realize they are based out of and run tournaments in Quebec, however they seem to have quite an impressive organization with 3D archery n Canada. From looking at some of the results from a few of their 2013 tournaments including the 2013 Canadian IBO championships, a few familiar names seem to have done quite well. Those who have shot the Pro3D may even be able to provide some feedback.


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## Bigjono

DssBB said:


> With regards to 3D archery in Canada and as a comparison to what the IBO is doing in the States, would it be looking at what Pro-3D (http://www.pro3d.ca/) has already established up here. I realize they are based out of and run tournaments in Quebec, however they seem to have quite an impressive organization with 3D archery n Canada. From looking at some of the results from a few of their 2013 tournaments including the 2013 Canadian IBO championships, a few familiar names seem to have done quite well. Those who have shot the Pro3D may even be able to provide some feedback.


Thanks for the link. It's a tad on the French side for me so I would need to translate it.


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## Stash

GenesisAlpha said:


> P.S. One thing Stash missed about the meeting was about online voting...........................................maybe a light at the end of the tunnel.


Yeah, there was some mention of that, but I can't see that being adopted for quite some time since even in this decade there are people without computers or smart devices (either voluntarily or not). Voting needs to be equally available for all members.


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## DssBB

Bigjono..Maybe this will help http://translate.google.ca/translat...o3d.ca/&prev=/search?q=pro3d&biw=1400&bih=760


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## FiFi

DssBB said:


> With regards to 3D archery in Canada and as a comparison to what the IBO is doing in the States, would it be looking at what Pro-3D (http://www.pro3d.ca/) has already established up here. I realize they are based out of and run tournaments in Quebec, however they seem to have quite an impressive organization with 3D archery n Canada. From looking at some of the results from a few of their 2013 tournaments including the 2013 Canadian IBO championships, a few familiar names seem to have done quite well. Those who have shot the Pro3D may even be able to provide some feedback.


The main thing that the Quebec organisation was able to do is answer the age old question Who was going to do it. Along with the FTAQ not doing much 3D any longer easily paved the way for someone willing to start one up


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## wellis1840

DssBB, there is a Pro3D tournament not too far away in Buckingham Quebec twice each winter. It is held in their hockey arena. A bunch of us from the Ottawa area go to it each year. They always have a massive turnout. The club likes to have people shoot in groups of four. This makes for a ton of groups and can take some time for you to get on course. Knowing this, our group gets there early to get a spot on the first go around. There is a shotgun start of sorts but there are more groups than positions. Once things start, more groups are fed into the the line as others finish. We have waited at least two hours to get on line after lunch and we are one of the first off the morning's round. Lots of long bombs and at least one target that I can think of is set up in unique way to mess with your mind. There are other "close" 3D Pro tournaments held in the Montreal area that others in our group go to but I have not. Those tournaments are also well attended. I don't remember door prizes (fabulous or other wise) at Buckingham so that is not what draws in the masses. The tournament is well advertized, well organized in a building that is maximized to give a well thought out challenging course. Except for the waiting to get on the line, a super day. The Quebec 3D Pro archers that shoot the circuit of tournaments (their schedule is massive) have team shirts, these are also worn when these guys come to 3D shoots in Eastern Ontario. More exposure for 3D Pro and advertising for future tournaments. I do not know what support 3D Pro gives individual clubs but I have never ever heard a bad thing said about this organization.



DssBB said:


> With regards to 3D archery in Canada and as a comparison to what the IBO is doing in the States, would it be looking at what Pro-3D (http://www.pro3d.ca/) has already established up here. I realize they are based out of and run tournaments in Quebec, however they seem to have quite an impressive organization with 3D archery n Canada. From looking at some of the results from a few of their 2013 tournaments including the 2013 Canadian IBO championships, a few familiar names seem to have done quite well. Those who have shot the Pro3D may even be able to provide some feedback.


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## CLASSICHUNTER

the pro 3-d from quebec was started because the 3d shooters felt the archery foundation did not represent them fairly ...they have a series every year and at the final tournament they actually have awards for every top three finishers in all categories...AND THEY PROVIDE FUNDING TO THE TOP SHOOTERS IN EACH CATEGORY TO GO TO THE IBO WORLDS EACH YEAR...... sure helps the boys that go as I know some of them and see them there with there shirts on....hhmmmmm it works ...they on average get 160-175 shooters per tournament ...which in my eyes helps the clubs willing to host 160 x 20 dollars = at the gate 3200 dollars in entries alone a quick 800 profit on food and 250 on on 50/50 plus novelty shoot 100 dollars equals about 4300 dollars take less 200 for medals means about 4 k clear to the club....nice pay day ...


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## CLASSICHUNTER

now lets get back to original thread remember 5 quick fixes not team discussions etc etc that's next thread what would you like to see NEW at tournaments...lol lol posted next week give each thread about 2 weeks to run its course ... the reason I have done this is to feel out 3-d shooters ....thoughts and concerns ...and to show there is a positive 3-d movement in Canada and the province of Ontario for myself ...you guys know I take feed back with a lot of thought ...you guys that came to my tourney wanted course layout changed ..and with eyes open the first announcement at the awards presentation before the awards even was the announcement I was changing course for next year. .and it was done ...positives get results ...


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## JDoupe

I went to a shoot a couple of years ago at Onaping Falls. It was a shot gun start and they grouped us for the morning. For the afternoon they peer grouped us and had a shot gun start.

I loved it. 

There are some downsides to this.....lunch took a little longer, and some people did not get to shoot with who they thought they might (I think family and kids could be grouped with some one new...) But I thought it was great. I got to socialize with the people I shot with before and after the shoot (as well as at lunch....) and I was able to meet new people and spend some great time shooting with people I may not have know otherwise. In the afternoon I was grouped with peers so there was the compitition aspect as well.

I think it worked great and would love to see this again. Kudos to Big Al for trying something like this. I'm sure it's not the first time it has been done.......and I hope it's not the last.

I also really like the idea of a shoot down for the top five shooters of the day. I love watching it on youetube and would love to see it live. Look at the Colby Cancer shoot when everyone is gathered around watching arrow after arrow........that is exciting!!!!!


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## Topper1018

JDoupe said:


> I went to a shoot a couple of years ago at Onaping Falls. It was a shot gun start and they grouped us for the morning. For the afternoon they peer grouped us and had a shot gun start.
> 
> I loved it.
> 
> There are some downsides to this.....lunch took a little longer, and some people did not get to shoot with who they thought they might (I think family and kids could be grouped with some one new...) But I thought it was great. I got to socialize with the people I shot with before and after the shoot (as well as at lunch....) and I was able to meet new people and spend some great time shooting with people I may not have know otherwise. In the afternoon I was grouped with peers so there was the compitition aspect as well.
> 
> I think it worked great and would love to see this again. Kudos to Big Al for trying something like this. I'm sure it's not the first time it has been done.......and I hope it's not the last.
> 
> I also really like the idea of a shoot down for the top five shooters of the day. I love watching it on youetube and would love to see it live. Look at the Colby Cancer shoot when everyone is gathered around watching arrow after arrow........that is exciting!!!!!


THANK YOU! I was beginning to wonder if my idea had fallen on all deaf ears. SHOOTDOWN guys its the golden key . lol


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## Robert Piette

I've got it, Team Shootdown!!! :wink:


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## JDoupe

Done and done!!!!!!!

Love it.......


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## Bigjono

Shoot down? Top 5 shooters? How do you decide who are the top 5


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## roughneck1

What's a shoot down?


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## x-quizit

If I'm not mistaken, top 5 from each category go into an unknown distance shoot off based on scores. From what I have seen, they take 5 different 3d targets, place them in a field at various distances so all spectators can see and the top 5 shooters shoot each target once. There are 2 people that call out the score and also pull the arrows after each round so no unnecessary damage is done to the arrows and the running point total is visible to all. Points from the shoot down are added to the day's total and winner is decided by total points from the main shoot and the shoot down. If there is a tie after that, one more shot is taken at an unknown distance.

Bowjunky.com has some awesome videos of shootdowns and they can get quite exciting.


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## Bigjono

Ok, just checking the shoot off would involve all styles. I like the idea, very similar to the iBO after hours events. I think you would need bigger turnouts for it to work and also to turn the mindset and attitudes of many shooting. The hunting crowd who don't care about score (often because there's is so bad) need converting and for that 3D has to actually matter to them. Getting started on time, limit lunch time, get everyone done by 2.30 and then people may stay. That involves shotgun starts am and pm too.


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## CLASSICHUNTER

shot gun starts work only if groups don`t shoot over their time limit ..been to shot gun starts and some times a group will be slow and and 4 targets open up in front of them so it slows down the WHOLE EVENT AND I MEAN WHOLE EVENT ..... You need a kitchen staff able to handle the whole events entries all at once ..other issues arise ..we had 125 shooters and every body was done by 2;30 in the afternoon ... NO SHOT GUN START... reason being I drove around course just about continuously and was the time bandit lol lol ...but it worked ...most clubs do not police courses at all or are afraid to say something....might offend somebody...guess what the other 120 people paid as well ...plus volunteer people have time lines as well kitchen and novelty shoot and if you want a smack down shoot out.... everybody has to be in early enough for this ....one to tally scores and get everybody to shoot especially when we have 10 -15 classes and age groups and male and female ??????? just some thoughts


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## Grey Eagle

1) 9am Start times

2) Shotgun start in morning and afternoon

3) Two shooters at a stake at the same time

4) Scores posted, but no awards given out to any of the adults classes, but offer up door prizes on a card pulling basis.

5) And to piggyback off Blakes idea, no cost for kiddy classes and possibly a rebate off the adult rate if you bring a kid with you

Cheers

Dennis


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## Bigjono

We already do free cubs and reduced rates for juniors at HaHa. It really ticks me of when clubs charge juniors full price (yes you know who you are, be ashamed). Not sur on the reduced rate for first time shooters though. Tough one to police and at the end of the day we need to make money to but new targets to keep the good shooters coming. Chicken and egg really, we need more shooters but need to keep the ones we have coming back.


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## FiFi

Not ashamed what so ever for charging juniors full rate, the junior age goes to 22 so no issue from me or our club, we have in the past offered a student rate to cover anyone still in College or university


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## Topper1018

at the risk of offending some, i will note that in the ASA format i beleive the shoot down only applies to the pro divisions. it does not make logical sense to apply this to all divisions, think of the amount of time to move targets from open distances to trad distances(just for example). The purpose of it should be to showcase the top scoring shooters, and with exception of a few, those shooters are generally in the OPEN category, or at least they really should be. my feeling is that this will draw more people into that category and get others into the entertainment of the game. A simple 5 target unknown distance setup, whether on the practise range or some other place readily accessible to all at the tournament, i believe can do alot for the sport. Unfortunately, some people will moan about not being included because of the class they shoot in. I guess my response to that would be, switch equipment and classes then (brace for internet bashing)


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## CLASSICHUNTER

ok I get it now ... cash class only ...sounds logical now thanks .......


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## shakyshot

Cash class?
Ok.So now people have to pay extra??
Or the club makes less?
How is this to help get more people out?


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## Bigjono

FiFi said:


> Not ashamed what so ever for charging juniors full rate, the junior age goes to 22 so no issue from me or our club, we have in the past offered a student rate to cover anyone still in College or university


Juniors up to 22, is that an OAA rule??? We give it 18. Which club do you come from, just so I know in case my daughter wants to shoot there.


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## Bigjono

Topper1018 said:


> at the risk of offending some, i will note that in the ASA format i beleive the shoot down only applies to the pro divisions. it does not make logical sense to apply this to all divisions, think of the amount of time to move targets from open distances to trad distances(just for example). The purpose of it should be to showcase the top scoring shooters, and with exception of a few, those shooters are generally in the OPEN category, or at least they really should be. my feeling is that this will draw more people into that category and get others into the entertainment of the game. A simple 5 target unknown distance setup, whether on the practise range or some other place readily accessible to all at the tournament, i believe can do alot for the sport. Unfortunately, some people will moan about not being included because of the class they shoot in. I guess my response to that would be, switch equipment and classes then (brace for internet bashing)


Offended. I take it you think the OAA is just about compound shooters then. For your information, us good Trad or RU shooters often out score at least 75% of the compounds at 3D shoots yet now we are somehow 2nd class shooters.


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## JDoupe

Yea...I don't think the shoot down is from all classes.

i agree.....move to the Open class.....and try the shoot down. Won;t hear any negative comments from here.

I shoot Open...and would love to try it. Even if / when I got to BHR again.....I would love to watch the top dogs fight it out.

BRING IT ON!!!!!

(Also Ted.......it would may be the cash class at your shoot....but that is the only one that offers cash....so it makes sense to do the Open for the rest of the shoots)


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## Stash

Here's an idea I've suggested several times over the years in various forums. Try it again.

How about a "bowhunter" class that's a *REAL* bowhunter class. Bring what you actually hunt with (minus the broadheads). Show a current or recent hunting license, and a picture of yourself in a real hunting situation - treestand, blind, whatever - with that same equipment.


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## Robert Piette

Stash said:


> Here's an idea I've suggested several times over the years in various forums. Try it again.
> 
> How about a "bowhunter" class that's a *REAL* bowhunter class. Bring what you actually hunt with (minus the broadheads). Show a current or recent hunting license, and a picture of yourself in a real hunting situation - treestand, blind, whatever - with that same equipment.



LOL, I think you would be surprised at how close my hunting set-up is to 3D bow set-up. Micro adjustable single pin, V bars & long stab, and lizard tung rest. The only real difference is the arrows, but I am still shooting above 310 fps. 

I really don't think scores would change in your scenario.


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## FiFi

Shoot down could be used for classes that have say 15 archers for men and say 10 for womens classes, this way it could act as an incentive to bring in or bolster more shooters for each class


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## CLASSICHUNTER

lot of extra work if for all classes ....shoot down if done .....I can see open and cash classes would be enough....hard enough to get 2 shooters to shoot off if a tie even happens...personally I love shoot offs ...love the hype and the adrenaline .... ok guys for the p and p tourney smack down for cash class and open and trad ...you guys decide its your money....again 1500 dollars guaranteed in cash class and 500 dollars in trad class as well... this is do able for me ...lets hear guys....always something new at p and p archery.... let me know...


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## Hoytalpha35

Why not an any and all grand prix? Our club did one two years ago and its back this year because the right people are running the shoot. There running 2 rounds saturday, followed by a kid shoot-off for a bow, one slightly bigger round on Sunday with a $1000 Grand Prix to follow and then guys can still get home at a decent time. If you want to enter you can just gotta pay your $20. I think Grand Prix's are awesome to watch. As for groups and pay-outs its kept pretty simple Men's Compound, Womens' Compound and a trad category plus all the youth categories. There are payout for the top three and then every 10th place after that. This way your top guys get there money and everybody else has a chance at a little money.


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## Bigjono

Hoytalpha35 said:


> Why not an any and all grand prix? Our club did one two years ago and its back this year because the right people are running the shoot. There running 2 rounds saturday, followed by a kid shoot-off for a bow, one slightly bigger round on Sunday with a $1000 Grand Prix to follow and then guys can still get home at a decent time. If you want to enter you can just gotta pay your $20. I think Grand Prix's are awesome to watch. As for groups and pay-outs its kept pretty simple Men's Compound, Womens' Compound and a trad category plus all the youth categories. There are payout for the top three and then every 10th place after that. This way your top guys get there money and everybody else has a chance at a little money.


Tell us more about this format, sounds interesting.


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## Hoytalpha35

For the Grand Prix anyone can enter, they just pay there fee. Last time there was only one grouping for all shooters. I think they are doing a trad category this year which is good. Every shooter entering sticks an arrow in the bale then the judges grab groups of 4 or 5 arrows to decide where guys shoot. Each group of 4 is given a target and farthest arrow from the X-ring is eliminated. Once an archer or two are eliminated from the group all remaining archers put there arrows back in the bale and are re-grouped. Many ways to group and sometimes luck of the draw avoiding good archers and getting eliminated, but everyone makes a bad shot once in a while just don't make at the wrong time  The few I have done usually can earn your money back in the top 20 and then better payouts as you go up. It doesn't over complicate things and still gets the excitement of a shoot-down. Again there is a Youth shoot-down for a bow.

Categories on the rounds are nice and simple like I mentioned earlier. Male Compound, Female Compound, and Trad, payouts for top 3 and then every 10th shooter.For the actual shoot they have always done trickle start and I strongly dislike that, not a fan of standing around. So there going to be running shotgun style starts, no set times except the first one and once the last round is done archer will just fill in the shooting line for the next round.

Hopefully answered what you were looking for. I should see a shoot poster in the next couple weeks to post up.


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## Topper1018

Bigjono said:


> Offended. I take it you think the OAA is just about compound shooters then. For your information, us good Trad or RU shooters often out score at least 75% of the compounds at 3D shoots yet now we are somehow 2nd class shooters.


It was never my intention to label trad guys as 2nd class shooters, you are making negative assumptions that may toss a monkey wrench into the progress i am digging at. Quite the contrary, I have the utmost respect for trad guys, its definately something I could not excell at. Freddy Bear is at the top of my list of heros. But, after relaying what is the successful asa format, where the pro divisions shoot down, I do beleive it is most logical to put the top class shooters on showcase. Whats more adrenalizing than "This guy has to hit the 14 on that 40+ yard sheep, a miss drops him to 5th place and hitting it wins the whole thing!"


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## Stash

Love the title of this thread... "_*simple*_ tournament changes"


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## N8trby

I haven't been competing for the past 2 years but this year I shot at 2 IBO and about 5 OAA shoots. I learned a lot at IBO as I shot trad this year as my compound that I was going to use had issues with sight pins (my fault) and I didn't have time to reset them. I did very respectable at IBO for my first time shooting trad in 3D and felt ready for OAA. I actually won 3 OAA shoots. The IBO was tough but so was Halton. As someone who hadn't shot much before I felt what limited my shooting confedience before was the lack of back stops. Yes format and Blakes idea are some parts that would be effective but the lose of arrows to noobies and casual shooters is a very BIG part of the factor that is turning people away. People enjoy shooting 3D but if they lose 7-8 arrows a shoot at $8-10 each, they will not shoot long during the summer. Yes practice is good but helping the shooter not lose equipment is good to. I shoot at Waterloo County Bowmen and we use hunting situations as well as backstops and have had favourable results from participants voicing their approval.

just my 2 cents


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## Bigjono

Topper1018 said:


> It was never my intention to label trad guys as 2nd class shooters, you are making negative assumptions that may toss a monkey wrench into the progress i am digging at. Quite the contrary, I have the utmost respect for trad guys, its definately something I could not excell at. Freddy Bear is at the top of my list of heros. But, after relaying what is the successful asa format, where the pro divisions shoot down, I do beleive it is most logical to put the top class shooters on showcase. Whats more adrenalizing than "This guy has to hit the 14 on that 40+ yard sheep, a miss drops him to 5th place and hitting it wins the whole thing!"


I get what you're saying and I was being a bit tongue in cheek but go to the iBO worlds and watch the shoot offs, all styles welcome and a trad guy list in the final this year. I love watching any style of archery but this feels elitist to me.


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## Bigjono

N8trby said:


> I haven't been competing for the past 2 years but this year I shot at 2 IBO and about 5 OAA shoots. I learned a lot at IBO as I shot trad this year as my compound that I was going to use had issues with sight pins (my fault) and I didn't have time to reset them. I did very respectable at IBO for my first time shooting trad in 3D and felt ready for OAA. I actually won 3 OAA shoots. The IBO was tough but so was Halton. As someone who hadn't shot much before I felt what limited my shooting confedience before was the lack of back stops. Yes format and Blakes idea are some parts that would be effective but the lose of arrows to noobies and casual shooters is a very BIG part of the factor that is turning people away. People enjoy shooting 3D but if they lose 7-8 arrows a shoot at $8-10 each, they will not shoot long during the summer. Yes practice is good but helping the shooter not lose equipment is good to. I shoot at Waterloo County Bowmen and we use hunting situations as well as backstops and have had favourable results from participants voicing their approval.
> 
> just my 2 cents


I am totally against backstops as they ruin the look of the shot and make yardage estimating easier but I understand your point. If clubs didn't put junior pegs at such stupid short distances you could use them for novices too, say max 20yds.


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## Gerard18

Bow bandit said:


> The whole speed thing gets overplayed, take Dave and I for example he shoots about 20fps slower that I do but we are always within a few points of each other, yardage is still critical but anyone who shoots a lot knows how to judge yardage. With the bows available today even someone with a 27 in draw can get 315 fps. My set up is what it is because I like to shoot 70lbs my arrows match that set up well, I could go to a 27 series arrow but I see no need as I get what I want out of a 23 series. It's not like guys are going out and pushing there bows to the limit for speed, I am we'll over 5grs per lbs without pushing the limits. I don't even shoot the fastest bow in the line. Speed is great if you can control it, but making good yardage calls and great shots will win over speed every day.


I agree here.


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## Jbsendnit

Robert Piette said:


> Originally Posted by Stash
> Here's an idea I've suggested several times over the years in various forums. Try it again.
> 
> How about a "bowhunter" class that's a REAL bowhunter class. Bring what you actually hunt with (minus the broadheads). Show a current or recent hunting license, and a picture of yourself in a real hunting situation - treestand, blind, whatever - with that same equipment.
> 
> 
> LOL, I think you would be surprised at how close my hunting set-up is to 3D bow set-up. Micro adjustable single pin, V bars & long stab, and lizard tung rest. The only real difference is the arrows, but I am still shooting above 310 fps.
> 
> I really don't think scores would change in your scenario.
> 
> View attachment 1800753




i won the oaa provincials with my helim, the 100% exact bow/set up that i hunt with minus the broadheads... 

the good shooters will always win regardless of there bows... 

look at blake for example, he shoots a peice of junk bowtech and still manages to win sometimes..


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## CLASSICHUNTER

Back on topic please


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## Bigjono

How did this topic become about who uses what compound bow?


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## shakyshot

Bigjono said:


> How did this topic become about who uses what compound bow?


Does this surprise you?


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## Jbsendnit

lol i was just joking, back on topic..

You know what i would like to see changed, this might not be what your asking but it bothers me ALOT..

why there are multiple events on the same days! 
so frustrating when you drive all over ontario going to shoots only to find a 20 person turn out, because there was another shoot an hour away.. this is simply moronic.. by all means clubs can do as they please and host as many shoots as they like but the oaa needs to only advertise one shoot per day. force people to drive an extra hour or so, it will be worth it when the turnouts are good.. I brought some first timers to some shoots last year and these guys have no interest in ever coming back because unfortunatly there was 20 people and it seemed so mickey mouse they figured they might aswell just shoot with there buddies at there own club..


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## Bigjono

Jbsendnit said:


> lol i was just joking, back on topic..
> 
> You know what i would like to see changed, this might not be what your asking but it bothers me ALOT..
> 
> why there are multiple events on the same days!
> so frustrating when you drive all over ontario going to shoots only to find a 20 person turn out, because there was another shoot an hour away.. this is simply moronic.. by all means clubs can do as they please and host as many shoots as they like but the oaa needs to only advertise one shoot per day. force people to drive an extra hour or so, it will be worth it when the turnouts are good.. I brought some first timers to some shoots last year and these guys have no interest in ever coming back because unfortunatly there was 20 people and it seemed so mickey mouse they figured they might aswell just shoot with there buddies at there own club..


Agree 100%


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## FiFi

Jbsendnit said:


> lol i was just joking, back on topic..
> 
> You know what i would like to see changed, this might not be what your asking but it bothers me ALOT..
> 
> why there are multiple events on the same days!
> so frustrating when you drive all over ontario going to shoots only to find a 20 person turn out, because there was another shoot an hour away.. this is simply moronic.. by all means clubs can do as they please and host as many shoots as they like but the oaa needs to only advertise one shoot per day. force people to drive an extra hour or so, it will be worth it when the turnouts are good.. I brought some first timers to some shoots last year and these guys have no interest in ever coming back because unfortunatly there was 20 people and it seemed so mickey mouse they figured they might aswell just shoot with there buddies at there own club..





Who gets to decide this????? this is pretty broad based when you think of how big Ontario is, many of these shoots are 3-6hrs drive that are on the same day. 1-2 hrs drive seems to be about the limit for most down this way and that's a stretch. Some of these shoots also have nothing to do with the other, a Fita shoot on the same day as a 3D shouldn't cause any issues.


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## Bigjono

So could any club that posts a shoot date the same as another club, within say, a 2hr radius, be politely asked to reschedule and told that date is taken.


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## Stash

Good idea, but unfortunately another one that has been tried and has failed.

Who decides who gets the date? First in to the person running the directory? That favours clubs that have a more established club membership and facilities - some clubs share facilities with other organizations (like archery/guns) and would like to put on a shoot but can't plan that far ahead.

Who draws the line between clubs? 2 hours drive in the GTA might be 100 kms on a Saturday morning, but for someone in the North who is used to going a long way for things, maybe 4 hours is more reasonable? 

What happens if a club is "politely asked to reschedule" but refuses - their date is not put in the directory, and we end up with another club that won't rejoin the OAA.


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## H.M. Murdock

FiFi said:


> Who gets to decide this????? this is pretty broad based when you think of how big Ontario is, many of these shoots are 3-6hrs drive that are on the same day. 1-2 hrs drive seems to be about the limit for most down this way and that's a stretch. Some of these shoots also have nothing to do with the other, a Fita shoot on the same day as a 3D shouldn't cause any issues.


Alright I have been silent for long enough on this topic but this post pushed me over the edge

There has been many times that I have wanted to shoot a fita but there has been a 3d shoot on the same day. This leaves me confused on where I should go and who I should support. So I end up shooting a field round. This way I don't offend either group because they both seem to have temperamental egos from time to to time. So my solution is to have more field shoots. Problem solved. Lets move on to larger issues.


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## CLASSICHUNTER

we send our dates to our zones reps and they try to undo the conflict most clubs stick with same date every year as less confusing than when u change every year ...most clubs are pretty obliging if within easy travel time for both one will change usually...


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## Bigjono

I have only been in Canada for 5yrs so don't know but has archery here in Ontario always been this disfunctional? 
The OAA runs archery here, clubs need the OAA book or website to advertise shoots to get decent attendance, ergo, the OAA has more control than perhaps it thinks. It's been tried before may well be the case but that line can't stop any and all future development of archery here.
If it isn't moving forward now, with archery as popular as it's ever been, it never will. You can't make an omelette without cracking a few eggs so let the clubs moan. Insist on OAA membership for clubs and OAA membership to shoot. Make the membership cheap enough to be fair to everyone though. Numbers may be down in year one but with low shoot numbers so little revenue the odd few clubs who didn't join would come back and with no Field Target or 3D shoots available to non members the archers will follow. That gives a platform to build from, strong clubs, strong membership.
The OAA has my full support, so does Mike but I think it's time for a shake up for the good of the sport here.


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## Stash

Maybe it would be a good idea if you define "dysfunctional" and describe what you think the goal of archery in Ontario should be?

I personally think we're doing quite well. There are 3D shoots pretty much every weekend somewhere, indoor shoots are fully registered and classes for beginners are fully booked. Probably be even more crowded after the next Hunger Games movie comes out. Everyone has an opportunity to compete at the local and provincial level, go to Nationals and make international teams in every archery discipline, and in recurve and compound target the numbers are higher than they have been in years, and among our various international successes, we have 2 golds and a bronze for Ontarians in the World Target championships and a silver in World 3D in recent years. We have a directory that lets everyone know where the shoots are, we have a website with news and new information, we have money in the bank to keep going, we have a good group of volunteers running things with the limited financial resources we have. For our modest OAA fees we get all that, plus group liability insurance that would be prohibitively expensive for some of the smaller clubs.

Considering we have a sparse archery population spread out over the largest province in Canada, I think we're doing quite well. Sure, things always need to be fine-tuned, but and here's experience talking again: too many times we have changed something simply for the sake of changing it, without any real indication that what we're changing will have any chance of success. Every suggestion made here has on first look some merit. But just because we "think" something will make things better, there's no analysis, no experimentation, no research into it.


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## Bigjono

Stash said:


> Maybe it would be a good idea if you define "dysfunctional" and describe what you think the goal of archery in Ontario should be?
> 
> I personally think we're doing quite well. There are 3D shoots pretty much every weekend somewhere, indoor shoots are fully registered and classes for beginners are fully booked. Probably be even more crowded after the next Hunger Games movie comes out. Everyone has an opportunity to compete at the local and provincial level, go to Nationals and make international teams in every archery discipline, and in recurve and compound target the numbers are higher than they have been in years, and among our various international successes, we have 2 golds and a bronze for Ontarians in the World Target championships and a silver in World 3D in recent years. We have a directory that lets everyone know where the shoots are, we have a website with news and new information, we have money in the bank to keep going, we have a good group of volunteers running things with the limited financial resources we have. For our modest OAA fees we get all that, plus group liability insurance that would be prohibitively expensive for some of the smaller clubs.
> 
> Considering we have a sparse archery population spread out over the largest province in Canada, I think we're doing quite well. Sure, things always need to be fine-tuned, but and here's experience talking again: too many times we have changed something simply for the sake of changing it, without any real indication that what we're changing will have any chance of success. Every suggestion made here has on first look some merit. But just because we "think" something will make things better, there's no analysis, no experimentation, no research into it.


Just read through some of the threads to see how much back and forth there is. I did not mean the OAA is dysfunctional, I mean archery as a whole.Go to a lot of other countries, you belong to one or many federations, you shoot at clubs affiliated with those federations or independent land leased for shoots by a federation. The shoots are all run under the rules of that federation so everyone knows where they stand. You don't just role up to shoots with the clubs dictating what classes they feel like having and a "your bow is fine here" attitude if it doesn't fit. Bows are inspected and put in the correct class, membership cards are checked when you book in, family and friends can't rely on shooting together etc etc. Perhaps that model doesn't work here, I don't know but I know if numbers keep going down at 3D shoots clubs will just give up. I've turned up to shoot and been one of 6 shooters or one of 10 shooters before. As someone who runs a club, I know how much work goes in to a shoot and a couple of years like that and I wouldn't bother any more, would you? Whatever gets done or doesn't get done, we all want numbers to go up, new blood, new kids, new families, new competition, if it doesn't happen soon 3D will die out here at many clubs.


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## stjoebowhunter

Maybe some clubs already have given up I don't see any shoots listed for next year from Halton or Royal city on the OAA web site!


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## FiFi

It was that stringent ideals that nearly sent the OAA into oblivion in the mid 80's, when I took office in the early 90's we had 500 members of which 300 of those where from the high school champs, club membership was FREE and we had 4 member clubs and 0 corporate members. in the late 80's we had a large strategy session in camp Borden, we aligned ourselves with what the clubs and members wanted not what was dictated to them. From that point on we saw increases right across the board, revamped the tournament directory brought in the Bowhunting Champs which later became the 3D champs and drew up a set of rules that the membership voted for, we continue to have rule/reg changes that the MEMBERSHIP votes to change. What we have now is far better than most organisation offer, heck if I want to shoot in Michigan I will have to join 6 organisations all claiming to be the representative for archery. you want a good turnout for a tournament, then put on something they will want to come too. The biggest problem for our club is the cost of the dam targets and its way more labor intensive than any other form of archery. I have said it before, what we need is stability in 3d rules and regs


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## Bigjono

FiFi said:


> It was that stringent ideals that nearly sent the OAA into oblivion in the mid 80's, when I took office in the early 90's we had 500 members of which 300 of those where from the high school champs, club membership was FREE and we had 4 member clubs and 0 corporate members. in the late 80's we had a large strategy session in camp Borden, we aligned ourselves with what the clubs and members wanted not what was dictated to them. From that point on we saw increases right across the board, revamped the tournament directory brought in the Bowhunting Champs which later became the 3D champs and drew up a set of rules that the membership voted for, we continue to have rule/reg changes that the MEMBERSHIP votes to change. What we have now is far better than most organisation offer, heck if I want to shoot in Michigan I will have to join 6 organisations all claiming to be the representative for archery. you want a good turnout for a tournament, then put on something they will want to come too. The biggest problem for our club is the cost of the dam targets and its way more labor intensive than any other form of archery. I have said it before, what we need is stability in 3d rules and regs


Cost of targets, exactly. It's chicken and egg stuff. You need more bodies to generate more money to buy more targets to bring in more bodies, it's a nightmare. As I said, I've only been here 5 years so I'm glad things have moved forward but I can tell you straight, they've moved backwards in the last 3 years as far as 3D shooting goes. I can only think of 2 or 3 clubs that get 100 shooters or anywhere near that now. Most seem to be 20 to 40ish. Would you want to drive 2hrs to shoot in a class of 2?
Where do you shoot in Michigan that makes things so hard. I shoot in NY, PA, OH and even TN belonging to only one federation. 
The key is turning all these new faces we see at the clubs into serious archers who want to compete so will become part of the OAA, not pandering to the likes of me who shoot everywhere I can anyway, it's new blood that's needed. 
I am cutting right back on my local 3D shoots next year as well. Money is tight so I will go to busy shoots and clubs who make an effort with courses. Some clubs you shoot the same animal in the same clear lane every time, that's lazy course setting and it drives people away. At HaHa we don't have the best terrain but you never shoot the same course two shoots running, we have all new Rineharts and we test even the best shooters as our way of trying to build interest. Josh at Halton was like that too so his courses were always fun to shoot.
I don't like playing devils advocate and making myself the bad guy but I got a real culture shock when I moved here and saw how bad 3D was compared to what I was used to and I don't think it has to be that way.


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## Jbsendnit

Jbsendnit said:


> lol i was just joking, back on topic..
> 
> You know what i would like to see changed, this might not be what your asking but it bothers me ALOT..
> 
> why there are multiple events on the same days!
> so frustrating when you drive all over ontario going to shoots only to find a 20 person turn out, because there was another shoot an hour away.. this is simply moronic.. by all means clubs can do as they please and host as many shoots as they like but the oaa needs to only advertise one shoot per day. force people to drive an extra hour or so, it will be worth it when the turnouts are good.. I brought some first timers to some shoots last year and these guys have no interest in ever coming back because unfortunatly there was 20 people and it seemed so mickey mouse they figured they might aswell just shoot with there buddies at there own club..


if you disagree with this your an idiot, for a lack of a better word.. 
introduce yourself to me at a shoot sometime so i can call you an idiot to your face

OAA needs 2 scheduals (other than the provincials and tripple crown and stuff), for a north and south division. in each division there is to be only 1 shoot per day regardless of the discipline. I love 3d and go to as many shoots as i can, theres sooooo many to choose from i never bother giving feild or fita a chance. but if on a certain day i wanted to shoot and there was only a fita or field going on, i'd go for sure (and dominate lol)... 
-instead of 100 half ass shoots put on per year and schedualed by the oaa. there should be lets say 30 (im not sure of the numbers here) really good shoots that the oaa promotes.. the oaa shouldnt even put a shoot on there schedual if its not going to be a great one..


scenario: a new shooter wants to get into tournaments, they get an oaa book and see that there is 3 different 3d shoots they could go to this sunday, they have no idea which one to go to so they pick whichever one is closest to them. they attend and find that there are only 10 other people shooting because theres so many other shoots going on, there first impression of competitive archery is that is sucks and is a waist of time...

scenario#2: a new shooter wants to get into tournaments, they get an oaa book and see the next 3d event is next saterday, they get all pumped and practice and attend there first shoot. they have a great time competing with all the other shooters at a good tournament with door prizes and the whole nine... 

which senario do you think will turn that new shooter into a member


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## Stash

Bigjono said:


> Go to a lot of other countries, you belong to one or many federations, you shoot at clubs affiliated with those federations or independent land leased for shoots by a federation. The shoots are all run under the rules of that federation so everyone knows where they stand. You don't just role up to shoots with the clubs dictating what classes they feel like having and a "your bow is fine here" attitude if it doesn't fit.


I've posted this once or twice before, but I think it warrants repeating...
Canada and the US have a different culture than most other countries in the world when it comes to sports. What works in the UK and Europe will not work here. Over there, someone interested in archery (or any sport) will say "tell me the rules so I can learn to comply", whereas here someone is more inclined to say "this is what I want to do - change the rules to fit what I want". You can readily see this difference if you browse AIUK (British) archery forum and compare it to AT. They have a whole section just for dress code discussion! This cultural difference is why we have a gazillion equipment divisions and associations in North America, (in everything, not just archery) and why people will not tend to accept being told they have to join a federation before participating in a recreational activity.

Bottom line is what Seanona says - "you want a good turnout for a tournament, then put on something they will want to come to". Other than for its own Championships, the OAA can suggest equipment tournament rules, but it can't force any club to follow them. The OAA can help advertise shoots, and offer a little bit of funding support to some archers based on the rules it's given, and do a few more things in the coaching, judging areas, but outside of that, it's pretty much the clubs' ball game.

All these suggestions are great for improving 3Ds and hopefully attracting more people to them, but the clubs have to do the work


----------



## FiFi

Bigjono said:


> Cost of targets, exactly. It's chicken and egg stuff. You need more bodies to generate more money to buy more targets to bring in more bodies, it's a nightmare. As I said, I've only been here 5 years so I'm glad things have moved forward but I can tell you straight, they've moved backwards in the last 3 years as far as 3D shooting goes. I can only think of 2 or 3 clubs that get 100 shooters or anywhere near that now. Most seem to be 20 to 40ish. Would you want to drive 2hrs to shoot in a class of 2?
> Where do you shoot in Michigan that makes things so hard. I shoot in NY, PA, OH and even TN belonging to only one federation.
> The key is turning all these new faces we see at the clubs into serious archers who want to compete so will become part of the OAA, not pandering to the likes of me who shoot everywhere I can anyway, it's new blood that's needed.
> I am cutting right back on my local 3D shoots next year as well. Money is tight so I will go to busy shoots and clubs who make an effort with courses. Some clubs you shoot the same animal in the same clear lane every time, that's lazy course setting and it drives people away. At HaHa we don't have the best terrain but you never shoot the same course two shoots running, we have all new Rineharts and we test even the best shooters as our way of trying to build interest. Josh at Halton was like that too so his courses were always fun to shoot.
> I don't like playing devils advocate and making myself the bad guy but I got a real culture shock when I moved here and saw how bad 3D was compared to what I was used to and I don't think it has to be that way.



What your failing to realise is the your comparing Natioanl bodies like GNAS/NFAS/EFAA to a Provincial org, heck GNAS just passed 40,000 members, I doubt any North American ORG has that many , as well UK has a rich archery heritage where here it is little more than a passing fancy in the grand scheme compound that UK has twice the Population in an area the size of Ontario


----------



## Stash

Jbsendnit said:


> scenario... scenario#2:


Obviously 2 is better for this shooter and one could argue better for archery in general, HOWEVER...who tells Clubs B and C they can't run a shoot that day because Club A is running one? The OAA? What if, say, 3 OAA Board members happen to be members of Club A - how will that look? 

Clubs can be requested to cooperate, but there simply isn't a practical way to force clubs to comply with such a requirement without risking a huge downside backlash. Been tried, failed.


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## Bigjono

I get what you're saying guys, I don't know much about GNAS but I know they have a big membership, just not my thing. I also know that population density is an issue to be overcome but we had loads of new members last year and expect more post Catching Fire movie release so we need to keep a % of them involved.
There was an interesting point raised about reducing OAA sanctioned shoots to try and make them bigger. Nothing would stop a club having a shoot and advertising it on the website but an OAA series in each zone might be fun. 6 shoots, best 4 scores count towards final placings. That makes the competitive amongst us commit to at least 4 out of the 6 shoots, more if we have a bad day somewhere. It's hardly any extra work for the clubs, just hosting and sending the cards in at the end. Go on, trash that idea for something I haven't thought of.


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## Stash

Send in the cards to whom? Who's the lucky person who gets to sort and add 600 scorecards in 20 divisions? Are there overall prizes? Who pays for them and mails them out?

Who decides which shoots get to be in the "OAA Series"?

And how would this idea increase attendance?


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## thunderbolt

Bigjono said:


> I get what you're saying guys, I don't know much about GNAS but I know they have a big membership, just not my thing. I also know that population density is an issue to be overcome but we had loads of new members last year and expect more post Catching Fire movie release so we need to keep a % of them involved.
> There was an interesting point raised about reducing OAA sanctioned shoots to try and make them bigger. Nothing would stop a club having a shoot and advertising it on the website but an OAA series in each zone might be fun. 6 shoots, best 4 scores count towards final placings. That makes the competitive amongst us commit to at least 4 out of the 6 shoots, more if we have a bad day somewhere. It's hardly any extra work for the clubs, just hosting and sending the cards in at the end. Go on, trash that idea for something I haven't thought of.


That basically was done in the Eastern zone for a few years. The Seaway Challenge was a series of shoots at 5 or 6 clubs with your best 5 scores going towards the championships. It fell apart a couple years ago because the volunteers who did all the work got burned out and nobody would step up to take over...


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## rockin_johny

Gotta jump in here again. All I keep hearing from a couple of people, and you know who you are, is "that this can't be done"..."we have tried that before"..."That wont work"..."who is going to do that".

If the people in charge of Archery aren't willing to help change it then we are all screwed. Why can't there be a Series as mentioned? Who will keep the scores...Umm I don't know, maybe one of the board members. That is such a minor detail and to just say it can't be done is asinine. The Seaway Challenge seamed to run ok and it was a 4 event series...maybe that was because the OAA didn't help with it.

There are some really good ideas here and if people would just open up to change maybe, just maybe something good could come of this.

Changes:

1) No conflicting events
2) A series or League style challenge (other that Triple Crown)
3) Expedited shoot times...start earlier and finish earlier
4) Reduced number of classes
5) Cash class for those that are up to the challenge

Ok, so there's my list...tell me why it cant be done.


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## thunderbolt

Anything can be done, but it needs volunteers! Why don't the people doing most of the complaining do more of the volunteering?
Many places the volunteers have just had enough and there's nobody stepping up to replace themukey:


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## shakyshot

In all honesty I enjoy shooting 3D.
BUT...Reading all this makes me really NOT want to shoot it anymore.
You hear all this crap on the range when shooting and it sucks the fun out of the day.
I have friends who have pretty much quit shooting 3D and started shooting field simply because of the pissing and moaning.
Maybe if all these changes need to be made to 3D than the ones that squak the most on here should actually do something about it.
Put your jaw and typing muscle into your arms and doing something about it muscle and get it done.
This thread should be shut down. It is not getting anything accomplished.
Bottom line. Stop pointing fingers and take some action.
If I was a newbie archer wanting to try 3D and ready this squabbling crap I sure as hell would not go out.

This is getting sadder and sadder.

Shawn


----------



## Bigjono

shakyshot said:


> In all honesty I enjoy shooting 3D.
> BUT...Reading all this makes me really NOT want to shoot it anymore.
> You hear all this crap on the range when shooting and it sucks the fun out of the day.
> I have friends who have pretty much quit shooting 3D and started shooting field simply because of the pissing and moaning.
> Maybe if all these changes need to be made to 3D than the ones that squak the most on here should actually do something about it.
> Put your jaw and typing muscle into your arms and doing something about it muscle and get it done.
> This thread should be shut down. It is not getting anything accomplished.
> Bottom line. Stop pointing fingers and take some action.
> If I was a newbie archer wanting to try 3D and ready this squabbling crap I sure as hell would not go out.
> 
> This is getting sadder and sadder.
> 
> Shawn


Sorry, you're talking rubbish again. There are some great ideas coming out here. As far as a series goes, what extra work???? The clubs are already holding shoots so that's the same amount of work. All that's needed is for entry list and cards to be mailed to the webmaster who spends 30mins loading the data on the website. Where is all this extra work coming from.
I think new shooters would like to be able to enter things that matter but without the pressure of a "champs" title attached to it, I'm all in for this.
A small group of us took on the role of running the HaHa club 2 years ago. We knew it would take extra work to get the club back on its feet when we signed on, it's part of the job.


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## rockin_johny

Stash said:


> Who's the lucky person who gets to sort and add 600 scorecards in 20 divisions? Are there overall prizes? Who pays for them and mails them out?
> 
> Who decides which shoots get to be in the "OAA Series"?
> 
> And how would this idea increase attendance?


How did you come up with the number 600 score cards? Never, will there be that many at a shoot...ever. Maybe 100. And 20 divisions, well we all know the feelings about that Par it down to 5 or 6 divisions for the series. See, solutions not problems.


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## Bigjono

rockin_johny said:


> How did you come up with the number 600 score cards? Never, will there be that many at a shoot...ever. Maybe 100. And 20 divisions, well we all know the feelings about that Par it down to 5 or 6 divisions for the series. See, solutions not problems.


When was the last time the OAA got 600 at a shoot, please!!!!!
If it's 1hr work after every shoot that seems ok if it helps grow archery doesn't it?


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## shootthewhatnow

Bigjono said:


> When was the last time the OAA got 600 at a shoot, please!!!!!
> If it's 1hr work after every shoot that seems ok if it helps grow archery doesn't it?


Then volunteer to do the cards... it's only 1 hour... right?


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## shakyshot

shootthewhatnow said:


> Then volunteer to do the cards... it's only 1 hour... right?


:sign10:


----------



## Bigjono

shootthewhatnow said:


> Then volunteer to do the cards... it's only 1 hour... right?


People volunteer for positions so accept what comes with that position. I know it sucks sometimes, there are days when I never even get my bow out at the club because other stuff needs doing, but I voluntered for the role so it's my job.
Are you honestly saying, with the current exec set up, that no new ideas can be implemented and no steps taken to improve anything because no one on the exec will take on anymore work? I am certain that is not the case.
I know the exec has a ton of crap on their plate, been there done that, but please tell me how else things move forward, or doesn't anyone want things to change?


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## STR8ASNARROW

I've seen allot of good ideas and i didnt read thru them all so here is my opinion......Speaking for the IBO only.....How about leasing the venues or club grounds so the tournaments are about the SHOOTERS and not the clubs.....


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## Bigjono

STR8ASNARROW said:


> I've seen allot of good ideas and i didnt read thru them all so here is my opinion......Speaking for the IBO only.....How about leasing the venues or club grounds so the tournaments are about the SHOOTERS and not the clubs.....


The iBO bring in a team to set up the shoot and courses, the OAA can't do that, good idea but not practical.
I accept defeat here, things will run as they run because obviously everyone is happy with how things are. I wanted better shoots and bigger shoots to attend, for selfish reasons I admit. I enjoy shooting against the best on tough courses.
I will apologize to anyone whose nose I put out of joint or who's ego got bruised and leave this Canadian section alone now. I want things to change, they are not going to change because the will isn't there so no point in these kinds of threads. Happy shooting guys.


----------



## FiFi

Bigjono said:


> The iBO bring in a team to set up the shoot and courses, the OAA can't do that, good idea but not practical.
> I accept defeat here, things will run as they run because obviously everyone is happy with how things are. I wanted better shoots and bigger shoots to attend, for selfish reasons I admit. I enjoy shooting against the best on tough courses.
> I will apologize to anyone whose nose I put out of joint or who's ego got bruised and leave this Canadian section alone now. I want things to change, they are not going to change because the will isn't there so no point in these kinds of threads. Happy shooting guys.


Until people actually realise how big the WHO factor really is in day to day operations any programme we come up with is domed to fail, history has proven this time and time again. Coming up with shooting teams, leagues, triple crowns anything to advance archery in the Province is the EASY PART, we had sanction tournaments for class awards, several multi club leagues both summer and winter a pile of triple crown tournaments throughout the Province so your not coming up with something new here, the only common thing with all of these was that when the person volunteering to look after these events stopped doing it they failed, You wonder why some of us that have been around the block a few times seem to be negative or realistic to some is that we don't need to learn mistakes over and over. What is needed is people to step to plate. Think of it like this, how many of us have set up a 3D course all by themselves.....quite a few I think, now how much easier is it when there is more people doing a portion of the work.
another thing if you hold an OAA membership card YOU are the OAA, I feel many are looking for a Company not an Organisation.


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## CLASSICHUNTER

wow guys we are bashing it out here again get back on track ....again though I`m one of the most travelled shooter around with a few others I will drive 5 hours rent a hotel room to win a 3 dollar medal... we in the Ottawa area try to accommodate each other in club listings ken Bracey our zone rep with the oaa has worked out tournament dates before and yes 5 tournaments within 3oo miles is not uncommon.... but a lot do not have to travel that far ....its the quality of shoot is what gets the numbers up...we have a attendance increase of 25% every year now totaling 125 shooters per day for a 2 day shoot...why good prizes good food good targets and great door prizes ..its work but worth it... now guys back to topic 5 things to make a tournament quicker and better... good to see the responses and whom ever no one is a idiot ..GET IT


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## mhlbdonny

*rules*



Bigjono said:


> When was the last time the OAA got 600 at a shoot, please!!!!!
> If it's 1hr work after every shoot that seems ok if it helps grow archery doesn't it?


I just realised something. It's been the last five years that 3d has really begun to decline. Hmm, just sayin. What do you think Shaky?


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## Stash

I got the 600 number because we were talking about best 4 out of 6 shoots, so 100 per shoot = 600 scorecards.
Lots if ideas but...


> If we are going to stay on topic, I think what ever proposal is posted should also have WHO will run it or look after it





> the clubs have to do the work





> Anything can be done, but it needs volunteers! Why don't the people doing most of the complaining do more of the volunteering?





> Until people actually realise how big the WHO factor really is in day to day operations any programme we come up with is domed to fail





> Adding more tasks for a clubs volunteer base won't help anything, if anything it will burn the few volunteer's out even quicker...





> in the end someone has to actually follow through with some of those ideas and bring to the proper place in a viable format.


Noting a bit of a common theme here...



> So, who's volunteering?


----------



## thunderbolt

I think you're missing the point a bit. It isn't that people don't want change, it's just that here isn't the place to make it happen. Online forums are a good spot to generate ideas, but in the end someone has to actually follow through with some of those ideas and bring to the proper place in a viable format.
There have been lots of good ideas the last couple of years, but nobody is willing to actually put it on paper and make a motion at the agm to get the ball rolling...

At least that's my view...wrong or otherwise:wink:


----------



## shootthewhatnow

Bigjono said:


> People volunteer for positions so accept what comes with that position. I know it sucks sometimes, there are days when I never even get my bow out at the club because other stuff needs doing, but I voluntered for the role so it's my job.
> Are you honestly saying, with the current exec set up, that no new ideas can be implemented and no steps taken to improve anything because no one on the exec will take on anymore work? I am certain that is not the case.
> I know the exec has a ton of crap on their plate, been there done that, but please tell me how else things move forward, or doesn't anyone want things to change?


I have no idea (not even a member of the OAA for a start) if they have the time or not... but these threads tend to be a "I'm an ideas man, not an action guy..." place to be...

If you want something new, best way to do it is to do it yourself and demonstrate the value... 

It's only a hour... right? What would you say to someone who presented a new idea to your club that would only cost an extra hour per shoot of your volunteered time?

My sarcasm is showing ... there's no way in ... heck... that it's only an hour. The site redesign to display this new information is also an unknown, as I'm sure there are many other variables that you just won't find until someone actually does it.

The folks involved in organizing things for any volunteer org are affected by well intentioned scope-creep... it's unavoidable. What I'm trying to say is that minor jobs aren't always "minor", so it's often better to task a new person to have that job... just in case. If it does turn out to be a non-issue... it can be absorbed by a regular person, but determine that first.


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## CLASSICHUNTER

guys lots of *****ing...the thread was to speed up and better shoots..a few have turned it into a volunteer pissing match...again stay on topic ...if a club wants to do anything with the suggestions great...use them work together not against... and please get along and work constructively.... and I will close thread when I feel it has run its course.....


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## rockin_johny

Changes:

1) No conflicting events
2) A series or League style challenge (other that Triple Crown)
3) Expedited shoot times...start earlier and finish earlier
4) Reduced number of classes
5) Cash class for those that are up to the challenge


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## shakyshot

No conflicting events

This is impossible with the # of clubs around


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## rockin_johny

shakyshot said:


> No conflicting events
> 
> This is impossible with the # of clubs around


Once again with the " it's impossible" response. I don't really care.
I am just providing a list of improvements, as I see them, for Ted as he asked us to do.


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## rdneckhillbilly

I gotta agree with Johnny here. 
This thread was started with good intentions and then it takes a turn and spirals down.
It seems to be the same people over and over and over who say..."Who's gonna do that? We already tried that. It did not work. You want that? Show up to the annual AGM and make a motion. We are only volunteers ya know."
Why would I show up to an AGM to listen to the same nay sayers. 
Same crap...just a different pile of it. 
Sounds to me like a changing of the guard is in order. 
Fresh blood. Fresh ideas. Stagnant blood. Stagnant ideas. Resistant or non responsive executive members=No change.
Who cares what forum(s) ideas are brought up in?
Who cares who suggests it?
It has become obvious that there are some members of the OAA exec on here. 
Do you not feel any obligation to listen to Ontario archers concerns (again...regardless if it is on AT or another forum or in a bar with some members over a beer) and take them forward? You make it sound like only the person who originated the thought is allowed to make a motion at the AGM. What's the worst that can happen? It gets voted down. No risk no reward. 
Given the size on Ontario it is darn near impossible for people to make the AGM.
You know it's 2013 right? Where is the OAA forum to get some ideas flowing or would that also not be considered the proper platform?
Why can't I Skype into the AGM? Why can't I submit an online motion for the AGM as long as I have a seconder?
Change is on the horizon.
If you cannot get with the times then step aside or be prepared to be steam rolled.


----------



## CaptainT

rdneckhillbilly said:


> I gotta agree with Johnny here.
> It has become obvious that there are some members of the OAA exec on here.


There is only one current, voting member of the OAA board that reads this forum and has more than a dozen posts. And he doesn't come here that often.



rdneckhillbilly said:


> You know it's 2013 right? Where is the OAA forum to get some ideas flowing or would that also not be considered the proper platform?
> Why can't I Skype into the AGM? Why can't I submit an online motion for the AGM as long as I have a seconder?


The last 4 president's all accepted motions via email. No one ever takes the time for the motion. Those presidents would also take emailed ideas to board meetings. No one ever takes the time to send in those ideas.


My ideas for the clubs... 
1. Don't make 40 difficult shots that test the best archers. Make 35 easy shots so the novices come away feeling like they did well, and 5 shots that test the best archers and create the separation for them. WHO: Club
2. Treat the volunteers like gold and help them out whether it's your shoot or not. As many have mentioned once the volunteer that championed something great burns out it normally stops happening (CFAA Indoor Championship, Seaway Challenge are good examples) WHO: participants
2. Host a tournament that guys leave raving about. Word of mouth will get people coming back or not coming at all. WHO: Club
3. Advertise your shoots and build hype. Then follow through (see point 2 - the P&P shoot is a good example of this) WHO: Club
4. Fix the economy. Where I am, just under 1 in 10 people are out of work and even more have reduced hours resulting in lower income. Complicate that with increased price of fuel. Someone mentioned that 3D has been going downhill for the last 5 years or so. Kind of when the economy started to crashed no? When your source of income disappears or gets reduced something has to give and travelling long distances to attend shoots is an easy way to save some money. WHO: Just something I threw out there. Not really something any one person can do.


----------



## rockin_johny

CaptainT said:


> There is only one current, voting member of the OAA board that reads this forum and has more than a dozen posts. And he doesn't come here that often.
> 
> 
> 
> The last 4 president's all accepted motions via email. No one ever takes the time for the motion. Those presidents would also take emailed ideas to board meetings. No one ever takes the time to send in those ideas.
> 
> 
> My ideas for the clubs...
> 1. Don't make 40 difficult shots that test the best archers. Make 35 easy shots so the novices come away feeling like they did well, and 5 shots that test the best archers and create the separation for them. WHO: Club
> 2. Treat the volunteers like gold and help them out whether it's your shoot or not. As many have mentioned once the volunteer that championed something great burns out it normally stops happening (CFAA Indoor Championship, Seaway Challenge are good examples) WHO: participants
> 2. Host a tournament that guys leave raving about. Word of mouth will get people coming back or not coming at all. WHO: Club
> 3. Advertise your shoots and build hype. Then follow through (see point 2 - the P&P shoot is a good example of this) WHO: Club
> 4. Fix the economy. Where I am, just under 1 in 10 people are out of work and even more have reduced hours resulting in lower income. Complicate that with increased price of fuel. Someone mentioned that 3D has been going downhill for the last 5 years or so. Kind of when the economy started to crashed no? When your source of income disappears or gets reduced something has to give and travelling long distances to attend shoots is an easy way to save some money. WHO: Just something I threw out there. Not really something any one person can do.


So, correct if I am wrong, but once again you are putting all the owness on the participant and the club and absolving the OAA of anything to improve the current situation in these issues

Ok I got it now.


----------



## hoody123

rdneckhillbilly said:


> I gotta agree with Johnny here.
> This thread was started with good intentions and then it takes a turn and spirals down.
> It seems to be the same people over and over and over who say..."Who's gonna do that? We already tried that. It did not work. You want that? Show up to the annual AGM and make a motion. We are only volunteers ya know."
> Why would I show up to an AGM to listen to the same nay sayers.
> Same crap...just a different pile of it.
> Sounds to me like a changing of the guard is in order.
> Fresh blood. Fresh ideas. Stagnant blood. Stagnant ideas. Resistant or non responsive executive members=No change.
> Who cares what forum(s) ideas are brought up in?
> Who cares who suggests it?
> It has become obvious that there are some members of the OAA exec on here.
> Do you not feel any obligation to listen to Ontario archers concerns (again...regardless if it is on AT or another forum or in a bar with some members over a beer) and take them forward? You make it sound like only the person who originated the thought is allowed to make a motion at the AGM. What's the worst that can happen? It gets voted down. No risk no reward.
> Given the size on Ontario it is darn near impossible for people to make the AGM.
> You know it's 2013 right? Where is the OAA forum to get some ideas flowing or would that also not be considered the proper platform?
> Why can't I Skype into the AGM? Why can't I submit an online motion for the AGM as long as I have a seconder?
> Change is on the horizon.
> If you cannot get with the times then step aside or be prepared to be steam rolled.


Honestly, you're kidding right?

Seriously though - you're just trolling?


----------



## rdneckhillbilly

hoody123 said:


> Honestly, you're kidding right?
> 
> Seriously though - you're just trolling?


No kidding whatsoever!
I guess I may be guilty of trolling. After all...I was just quoted by a troll.
I am going to guess you are old guard?


----------



## hoody123

rdneckhillbilly said:


> No kidding whatsoever!
> I guess I may be guilty of trolling. After all...I was just quoted by a troll.
> I am going to guess you are old guard?


I guess some would put me with the old guard, but those who actually sit back and examine the situation for what it is would simply call me logical and a realist. (But yeah, lump me with the old guard. I'm not really all that old, but I'd consider myself friends, or friendly at least, with those you're clearly categorizing as old guard.)


----------



## stjoebowhunter

How about making the shoots 30 targets instead of 40! people won't have to spend all day at a shoot and its less work for the clubs to set up and take down and less money for the clubs because they don't have to buy as many targets!! When ever I shoot up in the Soo they start at 9 and shoot 30 and most times we are done by lunch. It lets guys go to a shoot and be on their way to do what ever, I try to get guys to come to shoots but they don't want to be gone all day long. You want to bring kids into the sport well I got news for you they get bored after 20 targets I can get my 6 year old to shoot 30 but the last 10 targets are a struggle make the shoots kid friendly so the young ones want to come back they are the future of the sport and I don't see that many coming out.


----------



## FiFi

rockin_johny said:


> So, correct if I am wrong, but once again you are putting all the owness on the participant and the club and absolving the OAA of anything to improve the current situation in these issues
> 
> Ok I got it now.





So you want a company not an organisation


----------



## rockin_johny

Actually, after reading some things last night a cruising around doing some research, I think I want the IBO.

Maybe it is time for Bowhunters and 3D archers to go elsewhere if all we are going to get is the 'BUCK' passed along and nothing improved.

Then we can see what happens with the reduced membership numbers and your response to issues then


----------



## thunderbolt

The "reduced" membership probably won't mean much of a change in numbers. A good chunk of 3D archers in this province don't belong to the OAA, but expect the OAA to work for them...

Could it be time for this topic be put to rest for a while...:zip:


----------



## rockin_johny

thunderbolt said:


> The "reduced" membership probably won't mean much of a change in numbers. A good chunk of 3D archers in this province don't belong to the OAA, but expect the OAA to work for them...
> 
> Could it be time for this topic be put to rest for a while...:zip:


Chicken and Egg situation. Maybe if there was more response and attention by the OAA to needs of the 3D community then memberships would follow. Always two ways of looking at it eh!


----------



## stjoebowhunter

Enough with the *****ing and moaning compile a list of the simple suggestions here and Close the thread!!!


----------



## rockin_johny

I did submit a list of 'wants' twice, as well as many others who did the same. Every time we post some suggestions the same few people come on and start the rain parade.


----------



## araz2114

rockin_johny said:


> Actually, after reading some things last night a cruising around doing some research, I think I want the IBO.
> 
> Maybe it is time for Bowhunters and 3D archers to go elsewhere if all we are going to get is the 'BUCK' passed along and nothing improved.
> 
> Then we can see what happens with the reduced membership numbers and your response to issues then


I think rockin-johny has a good idea. I'm not sure if it will work or not. But I think it has some merit to involve the IBO in Ontario. It could be good for some archers to try to get a Ontario chapter of IBO here. I am not sure who will spearhead this, but I am sure if people with inititative get involved we could see something happen. 

It can't hurt to try this.

Chris


----------



## hoody123

rockin_johny said:


> Actually, after reading some things last night a cruising around doing some research, I think I want the IBO.
> 
> Maybe it is time for Bowhunters and 3D archers to go elsewhere if all we are going to get is the 'BUCK' passed along and nothing improved.
> 
> Then we can see what happens with the reduced membership numbers and your response to issues then


I don't think you're yet comprehending that the "buck" being passed along is just something you're imagining. These are VOLUNTEEEEEEEEEEEEEEERS that you're talking about. Instead of making suggestions, DO something. Many of the people that you're perceiving as "passing the buck" are people that have actually engaged and done things (IE MORE than just SUGGEST something!) 

There's one sure fire way for your suggestions to be implemented - you do them.


----------



## shakyshot

hoody123 said:


> I don't think you're yet comprehending that the "buck" being passed along is just something you're imagining. These are VOLUNTEEEEEEEEEEEEEEERS that you're talking about. Instead of making suggestions, DO something. Many of the people that you're perceiving as "passing the buck" are people that have actually engaged and done things (IE MORE than just SUGGEST something!)
> 
> There's one sure fire way for your suggestions to be implemented - you do them.


I second this


----------



## rdneckhillbilly

hoody123 said:


> I don't think you're yet comprehending that the "buck" being passed along is just something you're imagining. These are VOLUNTEEEEEEEEEEEEEEERS that you're talking about. Instead of making suggestions, DO something. Many of the people that you're perceiving as "passing the buck" are people that have actually engaged and done things (IE MORE than just SUGGEST something!)
> 
> There's one sure fire way for your suggestions to be implemented - you do them.


So a volunteer (a person who freely offers to take part in an enterprise or *undertake a task*) who was nominated, accepted their nomination and subsequently elected or acclaimed to perform said duties now says to the members of the organization that elected them..."do it yourself."
Is this Rob Ford because you must be smoking crack!
If nothing else I hope OAA members are paying attention and make their vote count next time the executive positions are up for nomination.


----------



## shakyshot

araz2114 said:


> I think rockin-johny has a good idea. I'm not sure if it will work or not. But I think it has some merit to involve the IBO in Ontario. It could be good for some archers to try to get a Ontario chapter of IBO here. I am not sure who will spearhead this, but I am sure if people with inititative get involved we could see something happen.
> 
> It can't hurt to try this.
> 
> Chris


I could not agree more!
I think Jonny should step up and get ahold of the IBO and get it going!
It's a great idea!
Come on John,Start the Ontario chapter.
The only way it's gonna happen is if you do it!
Get movin


----------



## hoody123

rdneckhillbilly said:


> So a volunteer (a person who freely offers to take part in an enterprise or *undertake a task*) who was nominated, accepted their nomination and subsequently elected or acclaimed to perform said duties now says to the members of the organization that elected them..."do it yourself."
> Is this Rob Ford because you must be smoking crack!
> If nothing else I hope OAA members are paying attention and make their vote count next time the executive positions are up for nomination.


You realize that it's not exactly a plethora of people clambering to take on these rolls right? These are NOT university grads that are doing this to bulk up their resume. They're doing it because, in most cases, no one else will and they've stepped up to the plate to actually get some stuff done. 

Solutions offered in this thread (IE the ones suggested by CaptainT) were all totally valid - yet they get derided as passing the buck. Many of these people have BEEN THERE, DONE THAT so when someone marches along and says stuff like "You better get out of the way from our making progress!" then doesn't actually OFFER TO MAKE THAT PROGRESS, they just basically let it roll on by - they know better.

There are some people out there that will absolutely charge in and make a huge difference, but that only persists as long as that one individual (or in some cases, small collection of individuals) are willing to do nearly all the legwork. Those people get burnt out and things return to the way they were. Honestly, many of the suggestions on here are laudable but so far from realistic without an extremely energetic champion to lead the charge and get things done.


----------



## Jbsendnit

rockin_johny said:


> Changes:
> 
> 1) No conflicting events
> 2) A series or League style challenge (other that Triple Crown)
> 3) Expedited shoot times...start earlier and finish earlier
> 4) Reduced number of classes
> 5) Cash class for those that are up to the challenge


yup


----------



## FiFi

rockin_johny said:


> Changes:
> 
> 1) No conflicting events
> 2) A series or League style challenge (other that Triple Crown)
> 3) Expedited shoot times...start earlier and finish earlier
> 4) Reduced number of classes
> 5) Cash class for those that are up to the challenge




1) explain more, there are approx. 100 OAA clubs and only 48 Sundays

2) why other than triple crown that's a series

3) why not cut the shot time down to 20 sec. like fita that way a 40 target 3d will give 14min of shooting

4) Great draw up the classes you want to turf I will second it, don't think you will get any issues on this

5) Open (cash class) has been in the OAA for 20 years now


----------



## Jbsendnit

1) explain more, there are approx. 100 OAA clubs and only 48 Sundays
2) why other than triple crown that's a series

I think the oaa should have a "shoot" schedule, just like they have now with any and all "shoots" listed.
but there should be a "tournament" schedule (or 2 to seperate the province) this tournament schedual only has one shoot per day and these shoots MUST be the clubs best event of the year, with a grand prix/fun shoot/prizes ect ect.. 
Clubs need to get a list of requirements/guidlines for how the shoot is to be ran. If the clubs can meet these guidelines/requirments and they request there event be on a given day of the tournaments schedual, they get it. plain and simple. clubs that dont have the resources to host a shoot of this quality, dont host one untill they can, they can continue to host all the "shoots" they want... 
If clubs want conflicting date's they can have a shoot off for them lol, c'mon people grown adults cant work with each other and compromise...

3) why not cut the shot time down to 20 sec. like fita that way a 40 target 3d will give 14min of shooting

- um no.. All tournament shoots follow the same guidlines.. so, vague example: shotgun start at 8am, scorecards HAVE to be handed in at 11:00. second shotgun start 12:00, scorecards HAVE to be handed in at 3pm.. these times are just an example, but what a set schedual like this does is force the groups to hurry eachother up so they dont miss the deadline to hand in scorecards... (this way dozens of people arent waiting on blake who wanted to wait for the clouds to roll in before he started shooting the second half lol jks) 

4) Great draw up the classes you want to turf I will second it, don't think you will get any issues on this

- very easily done.. whoever has "issues" will still attend when its the only tournament on that day..this is about bettering archery in ontario, not making everyone happy... let them b*tch. I'll personaly volunteer to be the person who people complain too. no problem. 

5) Open (cash class) has been in the OAA for 20 years now

- Great, so there should be no problem for any club hosting a "tournament" to include this class.. It will also help stop b*tches from b*tching if all the top shooters are in one class...naa mean


----------



## Bigjono

Oh ok, I know I said I was out of this one as I am caught in the middle, I totally respect the guys and girls who step up to volunteer for federations but I also think some great ideas are coming out. Forum or not, this is a sounding board for ideas and that's a good thing. The suggestions I like are,

1. Have OAA sanctioned tournaments and non sanctioned shoots. You can have a venue clash then so people get to choose, officially run tournament or clubs rules shoot, they can go to either.

2. Shotgun starts with mandatory score hand in times. Hand in late lose points.

3. Less that 6 in a class, no class, you shoot up in the next available. This makes less but bigger classes. This includes trad and RU etc.

4. All OAA sanctioned shoots to offer cash class and shoot offs.

I don't think any of these will add burden to any of the exec but might change things up a bit.


----------



## Jbsendnit

Bigjono said:


> Oh ok, I know I said I was out of this one as I am caught in the middle, I totally respect the guys and girls who step up to volunteer for federations but I also think some great ideas are coming out. Forum or not, this is a sounding board for ideas and that's a good thing. The suggestions I like are,
> 
> 1. Have OAA sanctioned tournaments and non sanctioned shoots. You can have a venue clash then so people get to choose, officially run tournament or clubs rules shoot, they can go to either.
> 
> 2. Shotgun starts with mandatory score hand in times. Hand in late lose points.
> 
> 3. Less that 6 in a class, no class, you shoot up in the next available. This makes less but bigger classes. This includes trad and RU etc.
> 
> 4. All OAA sanctioned shoots to offer cash class and shoot offs.
> 
> I don't think any of these will add burden to any of the exec but might change things up a bit.


Brilliant.


----------



## shakyshot

this is about bettering archery in ontario, not making everyone happy

If I may interject.
This thread has nothing to do with "bettering archery in Ontario"
It does however have everything to do with making 3D the be all to end all of archery in Ontario.
Rules are simple.There are guide lines for them.
It is up to the individual clubs to follow them.
If they do not and it is not an official OAA to go on record,What is this thread going to do about it??
Nothing.
Run your clubs the way you feel they should be run.
Follow the rules as set out by OAA or IBO.
It is up to YOU to make sure it is done properly.
Not the OAA.
Pretty sure they are not going to have a rep at every 3D shoot to police it.


----------



## Jbsendnit

shakyshot said:


> this is about bettering archery in ontario, not making everyone happy
> 
> If I may interject.
> This thread has nothing to do with "bettering archery in Ontario"
> It does however have everything to do with making 3D the be all to end all of archery in Ontario.
> Rules are simple.There are guide lines for them.
> It is up to the individual clubs to follow them.
> If they do not and it is not an official OAA to go on record,What is this thread going to do about it??
> Nothing.
> Run your clubs the way you feel they should be run.
> Follow the rules as set out by OAA or IBO.
> It is up to YOU to make sure it is done properly.
> Not the OAA.
> Pretty sure they are not going to have a rep at every 3D shoot to police it.



absolutly NOTHING you said here makes any sense whatsoever


----------



## Jbsendnit

All you have to do is look at the OAA tournament schedule. Its a huge cluster f*ck that is complete gibberish to anyone wanting to start shooting competitive archery (me last year lol) 

Theres wayyyy too many shoots listed and no real descriptions or category's or anything for someone new to decide which shoots they want to attend.. If a new shooter attends one of the good shoots of the year its a complete fluke! chances are, the majority of new shooters first tournament will be some half ass peice of junk shoot and they will never go to another one and sure as hell not pay for an oaa membership!.. 

ALL IT TAKES, is for the OAA to classify an event as a "shoot" or a "tournament". the important thing here is that there is only one "tournament" per day. and all the listed "tournaments" are the good top notch events. 

If i was a club who went to the trouble of putting on a great shoot with all the bells and whistles, and the OAA schedualed in another, or multiple other shoots on that same day i would LOOSE IT, and never join the OAA out of principle. (i know of more than one club who refuse to host tournaments because the oaa allows conflicting dates)

conflicting shoot dates is a HUGE PROBLEM! anyone who travels to shoots will agree with this. Theres been a few times last year i was so mad i wanted to boycot the oaa for it! ..drive for hours to attend a shoot with 2 people in your class all because there were other shoots that day that stole attendance. flippin bull****, just thinking about it infuriates me! lol my heart is racing just thinking about how pissed off this makes me.




Also, i only speak of 3D because its all i've attended. Im sure the same applies for every discipline


----------



## hoody123

shakyshot said:


> this is about bettering archery in ontario, not making everyone happy
> 
> If I may interject.
> This thread has nothing to do with "bettering archery in Ontario"
> It does however have everything to do with making 3D the be all to end all of archery in Ontario.
> Rules are simple.There are guide lines for them.
> It is up to the individual clubs to follow them.
> If they do not and it is not an official OAA to go on record,What is this thread going to do about it??
> Nothing.
> Run your clubs the way you feel they should be run.
> Follow the rules as set out by OAA or IBO.
> It is up to YOU to make sure it is done properly.
> Not the OAA.
> Pretty sure they are not going to have a rep at every 3D shoot to police it.


Well said.


----------



## shootthewhatnow

Jbsendnit said:


> All you have to do is look at the OAA tournament schedule. Its a huge cluster f*ck that is complete gibberish to anyone wanting to start shooting competitive archery (me last year lol)
> 
> Theres wayyyy too many shoots listed and no real descriptions or category's or anything for someone new to decide which shoots they want to attend.. If a new shooter attends one of the good shoots of the year its a complete fluke! chances are, the majority of new shooters first tournament will be some half ass peice of junk shoot and they will never go to another one and sure as hell not pay for an oaa membership!..
> 
> ALL IT TAKES, is for the OAA to classify an event as a "shoot" or a "tournament". the important thing here is that there is only one "tournament" per day. and all the listed "tournaments" are the good top notch events.
> 
> If i was a club who went to the trouble of putting on a great shoot with all the bells and whistles, and the OAA schedualed in another, or multiple other shoots on that same day i would LOOSE IT, and never join the OAA out of principle. (i know of more than one club who refuse to host tournaments because the oaa allows conflicting dates)
> 
> conflicting shoot dates is a HUGE PROBLEM! anyone who travels to shoots will agree with this. Theres been a few times last year i was so mad i wanted to boycot the oaa for it! ..drive for hours to attend a shoot with 2 people in your class all because there were other shoots that day that stole attendance. flippin bull****, just thinking about it infuriates me! lol my heart is racing just thinking about how pissed off this makes me.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Also, i only speak of 3D because its all i've attended. Im sure the same applies for every discipline


Everything you just said suggests that you cannot read the OAA rules or schedule (which are quite, quite clear on rules, event types and dates, allowing that the locations and directions suck since some clubs still will not offer up any address beyond "past the big pine tree after the left at the red barn, you can't miss it!") and have no interest in any other disciplin of archery beyond 3d, so how in heck would you know if there are problems elsewhere?

As mentioned ... there are over 100 clubs and only 48 weekends... are you saying that the OAA should only have 48 shoots on the schedule? that's insane... no club or group of clubs would go for that idea.

You also seem to have a massive issue with clubs simply hosting a scheduled shoot that doesn't include your prizes... SHOOTING IS THE PRIZE. if you "win", you get to take home a 99c medal... congrats. Archery doesn't give away large prizes unless you go to a large tournament.... there's not enough money there at even a 100 person shoot. If you want a big cardboard check to wave around go to Vegas... please consider staying.


----------



## Bigjono

shootthewhatnow said:


> Everything you just said suggests that you cannot read the OAA rules or schedule (which are quite, quite clear on rules, event types and dates, allowing that the locations and directions suck since some clubs still will not offer up any address beyond "past the big pine tree after the left at the red barn, you can't miss it!") and have no interest in any other disciplin of archery beyond 3d, so how in heck would you know if there are problems elsewhere?
> 
> As mentioned ... there are over 100 clubs and only 48 weekends... are you saying that the OAA should only have 48 shoots on the schedule? that's insane... no club or group of clubs would go for that idea.
> 
> You also seem to have a massive issue with clubs simply hosting a scheduled shoot that doesn't include your prizes... SHOOTING IS THE PRIZE. if you "win", you get to take home a 99c medal... congrats. Archery doesn't give away large prizes unless you go to a large tournament.... there's not enough money there at even a 100 person shoot. If you want a big cardboard check to wave around go to Vegas... please consider staying.


Come on, let's not let this get personal, everyone's view and opinion is valid.
I agree, some clubs provide Mickey Mouse info and quite frankly put on Mickey Mouse shoots, but some guys love shooting them. Other clubs like Halton, York, Royal City, Oxford etc put in good shoots and generally get good turnouts. Why can't these become "Sanctioned" shoots and the others still run as they want to. Reward the clubs that support the OAA most and also reward the shooters that turn out every week with bigger and better fields to shoot against.
You know me, round here it really is not about winning anymore it's just about fun and good competition, the prize for me is having someone push me hard to a good score while spending the day generally abusing compound shooters 😉
I would make no suggestions as to how Field and Target could be improved because I shoot little of one and none of the other, but I do know 3D better than most and know some simple tweaks (not twerks) could make all the difference.
I have nothing left to prove round here but I would rather come last in a class of 20 than first in a class of 2 and I think most would agree with this. Build it and they will come as someone once said.


----------



## shootthewhatnow

Bigjono said:


> Come on, let's not let this get personal, everyone's view and opinion is valid.
> I agree, some clubs provide Mickey Mouse info and quite frankly put on Mickey Mouse shoots, but some guys love shooting them. Other clubs like Halton, York, Royal City, Oxford etc put in good shoots and generally get good turnouts. Why can't these become "Sanctioned" shoots and the others still run as they want to. Reward the clubs that support the OAA most and also reward the shooters that turn out every week with bigger and better fields to shoot against.
> You know me, round here it really is not about winning anymore it's just about fun and good competition, the prize for me is having someone push me hard to a good score while spending the day generally abusing compound shooters &#55357;&#56841;
> I would make no suggestions as to how Field and Target could be improved because I shoot little of one and none of the other, but I do know 3D better than most and know some simple tweaks (not twerks) could make all the difference.
> I have nothing left to prove round here but I would rather come last in a class of 20 than first in a class of 2 and I think most would agree with this. Build it and they will come as someone once said.


I'll admit that was jerkish even for me... but come on... how do you tell a club that the shoot they put work into is only "second best grade", or "Not good/big enough to be sanctioned, so sorry..." or "Gee, we'd give you a real listing if you cough up 200$ worth of prizes".

As for the rest... the clubs set the schedule if I'm not mistake, not the OAA. If the clubs don't want to conflict with another club that's within a specific distance, they don't have to, they CHOOSE to.


----------



## Bigjono

shootthewhatnow said:


> I'll admit that was jerkish even for me... but come on... how do you tell a club that the shoot they put work into is only "second best grade", or "Not good/big enough to be sanctioned, so sorry..." or "Gee, we'd give you a real listing if you cough up 200$ worth of prizes".
> 
> As for the rest... the clubs set the schedule if I'm not mistake, not the OAA. If the clubs don't want to conflict with another club that's within a specific distance, they don't have to, they CHOOSE to.


Oh come on, you can be way more jerkish than that if you work at it.
I get what you're saying and nothing stops clubs from putting shoots on and they still get listed but it's also survival of the fittest. If some shoots aren't attracting good numbers or top shooters there is normally a reason. I can think of one club that has great grounds, good targets but puts on crap unimaginative shoots then wonders why the numbers are way down, or another club that just sets up arrow flingers courses with stupid shots so most serious tournament guys stay away.
Cash prizes come from shoot fees so cost the club nothing so no problem there. 
I don't think 6 sanctioned shoots a year will be a problem for anyone but some clubs might have to decide to either improve or accept continued low numbers. 
At HaHa the facilities were rubbish 2 years ago and they stopped hosting shoots because no one turned up. I've spent 12 grand on new targets and worked hard to put on testing but fun courses. The numbers are starting to come back now so the moral is, make your shoot one that people want to go to, not one they go to just because it's close.


----------



## shootthewhatnow

Bigjono said:


> Oh come on, you can be way more jerkish than that if you work at it.
> I get what you're saying and nothing stops clubs from putting shoots on and they still get listed but it's also survival of the fittest. If some shoots aren't attracting good numbers or top shooters there is normally a reason. I can think of one club that has great grounds, good targets but puts on crap unimaginative shoots then wonders why the numbers are way down, or another club that just sets up arrow flingers courses with stupid shots so most serious tournament guys stay away.
> Cash prizes come from shoot fees so cost the club nothing so no problem there.
> I don't think 6 sanctioned shoots a year will be a problem for anyone but some clubs might have to decide to either improve or accept continued low numbers.
> At HaHa the facilities were rubbish 2 years ago and they stopped hosting shoots because no one turned up. I've spent 12 grand on new targets and worked hard to put on testing but fun courses. The numbers are starting to come back now so the moral is, make your shoot one that people want to go to, not one they go to just because it's close.


Awesome news... you (and HAHA) are a great example of how almost everyone on this thread needs to stop blaming the OAA for their issues, step up, and DO SOMETHING IF YOU WANT IT DONE.

Here's my Five... since that's what the thread was for.

1. Stop *****ing about the OAA. It's made up of it's members... if you are one, shut it and help or you are complaining about no one BUT YOURSELF. If you aren't a member, you have no right to *****.

2. If you want to change something, stop waiting for someone else to do it. Do it yourself. (Lookin at you ClassicHunter... you started this. You undeniably contribute at your club level, and seem to do nothing but pick at the OAA on AT.)

3. Stop complaining that the clubs don't host the shoots you want... tell them yourself. Archerytalk does not reach the people you are trying to change. There is contact info for every club available through the OAA, or the OAA can pass along your feedback (Sorry Mike, it was all I could think of). We've heard time and time again that many clubs in Ontario do not pay that much attention to what is on the internet... WHY WOULD ANYONE THINK THAT A CLUB PREZ (other than Bigjono, heh) WOULD READ 8 PAGES OF THIS?!?

4. Stop assuming that your ideas can "fix the OAA". You can only change it's members, threads like this are absurd.

5. Stop attacking the board of the OAA for not doing enough... they implement the rules... the OAA members make the rules (through voting). They have volunteered their time to support YOUR community (your's and everybody else's). If you want your comunity to be different/better/gooder/stronger/faster/higher/prizier/bigger/whatever-er... do it your damn self and change your local club, show up to vote for it, send an emailed motion to the OAA prez (as he's asked half a hundred times now) or shut it.

There... I'm done being a jerk and with this thread... won't see me in here again. 

This is not archers helping archers, this is not a productive discussion.


----------



## Jbsendnit

Its great having all the die hardsshow up and shoots these events but its the new shooters that are the future of archery..

By fluke last year i went to halton for my first shoot and it had a good tournout and i enjoyed it enough to keep coming back... The whole year for me was hit and miss. unless i asked a veteran which are the good shoots to go to i would have no idea. Alot of times i would see 5 different 3d events on a given weekend and all i could do was pick one as theres nothing but a club name and date on the oaa schedule. Alot of times i'd find myself at a shoot with only a couple other people only to find out that the "good" shoot this weekend was yesterday 2 hours in the other direction. It sucks that i live in the middle. being in barrie the shoots are normaly a few hours north or a few hours south, so either way i have to drive alot. knowing which shoot "everyone" is going to on a given weekend is my problem i guess... (btw, i went to 14 shoots last year and won 14 99c medals and a plaque. i could care less about the actual "prize".. i just like being able to say im better than you)


----------



## shakyshot

Jbsendnit said:


> All you have to do is look at the OAA tournament schedule. Its a huge cluster f*ck that is complete gibberish to anyone wanting to start shooting competitive archery (me last year lol)
> 
> Theres wayyyy too many shoots listed and no real descriptions or category's or anything for someone new to decide which shoots they want to attend.. If a new shooter attends one of the good shoots of the year its a complete fluke! chances are, the majority of new shooters first tournament will be some half ass peice of junk shoot and they will never go to another one and sure as hell not pay for an oaa membership!..
> 
> ALL IT TAKES, is for the OAA to classify an event as a "shoot" or a "tournament". the important thing here is that there is only one "tournament" per day. and all the listed "tournaments" are the good top notch events.
> 
> If i was a club who went to the trouble of putting on a great shoot with all the bells and whistles, and the OAA schedualed in another, or multiple other shoots on that same day i would LOOSE IT, and never join the OAA out of principle. (i know of more than one club who refuse to host tournaments because the oaa allows conflicting dates)
> 
> conflicting shoot dates is a HUGE PROBLEM! anyone who travels to shoots will agree with this. Theres been a few times last year i was so mad i wanted to boycot the oaa for it! ..drive for hours to attend a shoot with 2 people in your class all because there were other shoots that day that stole attendance. flippin bull****, just thinking about it infuriates me! lol my heart is racing just thinking about how pissed off this makes me.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Also, i only speak of 3D because its all i've attended. Im sure the same applies for every discipline


Its's a cluster **** as you said because of the amount of clubs there are.

What should be done is have different level shoots.
Ones with "cash" class that all the 3D 'bigwigs' would attend.
And then another set where everyone else can go to have fun.
After all, thats what it's supposed to be about.
Not bickering and fighting.
Archery is archery. 
Enjoy it or move on


----------



## shakyshot

shootthewhatnow said:


> Awesome news... you (and HAHA) are a great example of how almost everyone on this thread needs to stop blaming the OAA for their issues, step up, and DO SOMETHING IF YOU WANT IT DONE.
> 
> Here's my Five... since that's what the thread was for.
> 
> 1. Stop *****ing about the OAA. It's made up of it's members... if you are one, shut it and help or you are complaining about no one BUT YOURSELF. If you aren't a member, you have no right to *****.
> 
> 2. If you want to change something, stop waiting for someone else to do it. Do it yourself. (Lookin at you ClassicHunter... you started this. You undeniably contribute at your club level, and seem to do nothing but pick at the OAA on AT.)
> 
> 3. Stop complaining that the clubs don't host the shoots you want... tell them yourself. Archerytalk does not reach the people you are trying to change. There is contact info for every club available through the OAA, or the OAA can pass along your feedback (Sorry Mike, it was all I could think of). We've heard time and time again that many clubs in Ontario do not pay that much attention to what is on the internet... WHY WOULD ANYONE THINK THAT A CLUB PREZ (other than Bigjono, heh) WOULD READ 8 PAGES OF THIS?!?
> 
> 4. Stop assuming that your ideas can "fix the OAA". You can only change it's members, threads like this are absurd.
> 
> 5. Stop attacking the board of the OAA for not doing enough... they implement the rules... the OAA members make the rules (through voting). They have volunteered their time to support YOUR community (your's and everybody else's). If you want your comunity to be different/better/gooder/stronger/faster/higher/prizier/bigger/whatever-er... do it your damn self and change your local club, show up to vote for it, send an emailed motion to the OAA prez (as he's asked half a hundred times now) or shut it.
> 
> There... I'm done being a jerk and with this thread... won't see me in here again.
> 
> This is not archers helping archers, this is not a productive discussion.


Agreed!

Also. As stated many times on here.
Bigjono is NOT an OAA member. Just sayin


----------



## stjoebowhunter

Jbsendnit said:


> Its great having all the die hardsshow up and shoots these events but its the new shooters that are the future of archery..
> 
> By fluke last year i went to halton for my first shoot and it had a good tournout and i enjoyed it enough to keep coming back... The whole year for me was hit and miss. unless i asked a veteran which are the good shoots to go to i would have no idea. Alot of times i would see 5 different 3d events on a given weekend and all i could do was pick one as theres nothing but a club name and date on the oaa schedule. Alot of times i'd find myself at a shoot with only a couple other people only to find out that the "good" shoot this weekend was yesterday 2 hours in the other direction. It sucks that i live in the middle. being in barrie the shoots are normaly a few hours north or a few hours south, so either way i have to drive alot. knowing which shoot "everyone" is going to on a given weekend is my problem i guess... (btw, i went to 14 shoots last year and won 14 99c medals and a plaque. i could care less about the actual "prize".. i just like being able to say im better than you)


So I guess you will be shooting cash class this year since you won all that hardware!!


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## shakyshot

(btw, i went to 14 shoots last year and won 14 99c medals and a plaque. i could care less about the actual "prize".. i just like being able to say im better than you) 

Sorry to burs your bubble friend.
All those 99c metals you won't does not mean your better than anyone.
Just means you where the blind squirrel that found his nut that day.
I've lots of those 99c metals to.
Just means I went to a local club and shot well.
You want I to mean something??
Win when bowbandit shows up.
If you can beat him at his game then I'll be impressed.


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## roughneck1

Jbsendnit said:


> All you have to do is look at the OAA tournament schedule. Its a huge cluster f*ck that is complete gibberish to anyone wanting to start shooting competitive archery (me last year lol)
> 
> Theres wayyyy too many shoots listed and no real descriptions or category's or anything for someone new to decide which shoots they want to attend.. If a new shooter attends one of the good shoots of the year its a complete fluke! chances are, the majority of new shooters first tournament will be some half ass peice of junk shoot and they will never go to another one and sure as hell not pay for an oaa membership!..
> 
> ALL IT TAKES, is for the OAA to classify an event as a "shoot" or a "tournament". the important thing here is that there is only one "tournament" per day. and all the listed "tournaments" are the good top notch events.


I have to agree with this. I'm new to 3D and would like to start attending some competitive tournaments. Like most people, I'm only willing to drive so far to an event. The OAA website really doesn't tell you much unless you're already familiar with the shoots. I'm not. And without any details listed, and NOT EVEN A LOCATION , it makes it difficult.


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## Robert Piette

shakyshot said:


> (btw, i went to 14 shoots last year and won 14 99c medals and a plaque. i could care less about the actual "prize".. i just like being able to say im better than you)
> 
> Sorry to burs your bubble friend.
> All those 99c metals you won't does not mean your better than anyone.
> Just means you where the blind squirrel that found his nut that day.
> I've lots of those 99c metals to.
> Just means I went to a local club and shot well.
> You want I to mean something??
> Win when bowbandit shows up.
> If you can beat him at his game then I'll be impressed.



LMAO!! Well said.


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## Bigjono

shakyshot said:


> Agreed!
> 
> Also. As stated many times on here.
> Bigjono is NOT an OAA member. Just sayin


I wonder why?
As I stated many times, I was a member in 2009 but didn't feel it offered any great advantage, but my point is, it should. The only shoots I need to be a member for are the provincials. I am just a normal working guy who looks for value for money. I have done no OAA shoots since Restoule 2009, 3rd leg of the TC, so there would have been no value in joining. Now if membership got you access to the best shoots with the strongest fields, that's value.
I say this with no detriment to anyone but I will join the OAA again when I need to. If I decide to shoot the TC in 2014 I will join again but I'd really love a reason to join every year.


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## Stash

roughneck1 said:


> I have to agree with this. I'm new to 3D and would like to start attending some competitive tournaments. Like most people, I'm only willing to drive so far to an event. The OAA website really doesn't tell you much unless you're already familiar with the shoots. I'm not. And without any details listed, and NOT EVEN A LOCATION , it makes it difficult.


Not really the job of the OAA website and directory to give a lot of details about the shoots. 

The directory is just that - a listing. Costs money to print, and if clubs want to promote their own shoots, the advertizing rates are readily available.

And if a club wants to promote it's own shoot on the OAA website, it's simply a matter of coming up with a "press release" and asking the webmaster to put it in the news feed.

One thing I will do is ask (through the proper channel) for the website to have a link in the "contacts" section to the website of every club that has one. That way, if you see a tournament listing that interests you, it'll be easier to find the club website and get the information directly.
---

There, I did it. Took about 3 minutes to send an e-mail to the president and Webmaster. Not a whole lot more time than it would for me to have posted "someone should do it". 

Make sure that if your club has a website, someone sends the address to the Webmaster so he can include it. And of course, the clubs should have details about their own shoots on their own websites.


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## CLASSICHUNTER

excellent stash now I don`t have to spend 350 dollars for a full page add I guess and surprising enough a couple say that at here does nothing for the oaa I beg to differ ..we get more response from the exec here than when we send pm,s and know what ..exec is accountable to all ...try using the oaa site a bit tough old format easier but that's me and again everybody got off topic .. this thread was to help tourneys run SMOOTHER and QUICKER ....NO PERSONAL ATTACKS PLEASE READ WHAT U WILL OR JUST IGNORE IF YOU DON`T LIKE WHAT IS BEING SAID... thread started out ok then went sideways ....


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## Stash

Got a reply to my email to the OAA president - he agrees it's a good idea and will try to incorporate club websites into the directory, and shoot info into the news feed.

I remind everyone that it is up to the clubs to provide this information, not up to the OAA volunteers to go digging for it.


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## araz2114

I agree with Ted. This was started out to come up with ideas to help clubs... run better shoots.... increase numbers of shooters.... make more money... make the experience of the shoot better for everyone. 

I don't have a "list" but I agree with what most have posted here for ideas... not all... but most.


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