# Hinge comfort



## Wyotarget (Mar 17, 2013)

I put my thumb trigger away and refuse to even bring it to the range 3 weeks ago. 
I blank baled for two solid weeks to get comfortable with the shot process. Now I've introduced a target to get ready for a tournament this weekend. 

What I'm struggling with is on a target some of my shots I punch the release when the click happens. But I don't do this on a blank bale. When I punch it tends to be a 7 or 6 but when I don't it falls in the x. I shot one of my highest X counts the other night but had the lowest scores I've shot in 3 years. 423 23x compared to my old average on 442 16-18 x. 

What types of practice can I do to not be so jumpy at the click?


----------



## montigre (Oct 13, 2008)

2 weeks on a blank bale is a very short time with a hinge to expect winning scores. I'd recommend going from BB to the 10-yard game with a target and work on shooting good shots without punching. When you can consistently do that at 10 yards, then consider entering a local competition, but do not expect to score your old average--best to put score out of your mind as you're making this transition--it will drop off for a while before picking up again. 

Instead of thinking of score at your first competitions with a hinge, keep your focus totally on making good, strong shots and let the arrows land where they may. If you feel something is off or a punch coming on, let down, reset and start the shot over. You cannot be an expert with a hings after shooting something else in a couple of weeks. The fact that you're already starting to punch it is proof of this and is a sign you need more time learning it. 

Maybe take the click out of the equasion and learn the hinge first. If you want a click later when you're solid with it, add it then. Good luck and have fun!!


----------



## RCR_III (Mar 19, 2011)

Solid Advice from montigre and I have to agree on not entering a competition until you are solid with the hinge. You could cause a whole list of issues to get over at that point instead of continuing your steady ascent. 

How is the click in your sequence being used currently? Are you coming into the click as you anchor, or is it clicking during your execution? If you want to continue to use the click, make sure the click is happening as you anchor, not during execution. Or like was stated, ditch the click and work on a slow and steady, smooth execution.


----------



## Wyotarget (Mar 17, 2013)

My shot process is this.
1, set my feet
2, knock arrow,
3 set bow hand
4 draw, while coming int my anchor check level, 

5, when anchor is reached rotate ring finger till click,( this is where I jump on target)

6, start aiming and pulling till shot breaks

7, follow through


----------



## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

You simply aren't ready to compete with a hinge, it isn't a one month transformation. It has taken me 4 years to become a hinge shooter and you have a lot of work to do so having a competition coming up right now is only going to create doubt in the process and slow you down in the long run. That is why it took me 4 years to get on top of hinge shooting instead of a year. I really think if I had a guy like myself to shoot with and show me things I could have gotten there in a year but I didn't.

Concerns that I noticed in your post:

1. You are rotating the hinge with your ring finger to get to click, this is bad.

2. Pulling to fire the hinge, pulling should be part of a firing engine but not the only aspect. You need to have something else in combination of your pulling to fire the hinge.

3. You should not be on the x when you come to click, getting to the click should happen before you get to the x.

I have a bunch of articles on hinge setup and firing engines that you can read and then use to set up the hinge so it gets to click properly along with a variety of firing engines for you to practice with. Just pm me if you want them.


----------



## Wyotarget (Mar 17, 2013)

Thank you will do later this evening


----------



## Fury90flier (Jun 27, 2012)

close your eyes to shoot....seriously.

load an arrow
set your grip
set your draw grip
set...just go through building your shot....

when you start to float on target- close your eyes and fire the release. Do NOT pay attention to where the arrow goes or how it looks in the target. The focus right now is to make the actual firing habit. When you close your eyes, you can only focus on the firing engine.

When I'm having my off ends, I'll thow the closing eyes drill in for a few shots and that typically helps me regain my focus.

Also...and this is probably the most important. Closing your eyes and firing will help you find your NPA. If you settle on the target and your shot goes wild---you're not naturally pointing at the center of the target.

The farthest I've attempted this is 40yards...typically it's 10-20. Kind of neat to shoot with your eyes closed- especially when you actually shoot better -lol. No lie. I was having a crap day a week ago or so and did one of these drills. After finding my NPA, I flung some blind---and wouldn't ya know---closer to the middle and less wide (fliers). 

Just to clarify...you close your eyes after you've hit anchor and into your float.

and...I agree with Padgett...you may not be ready to compete with this release. That is, if you care about score. Starting out it's so easy to get an early shot or not be able to get it to fire....both will jack up a decent score.


----------



## Fury90flier (Jun 27, 2012)

Firing a back tension release should be a fluid motion. If you're trying to make the sight "sit on the X" and then fire- it won't result in consistent scoring. sight ring/pin goes through the target at the same time your release is pulled through the loop...not sure how to explaine it better.

Get Padgetts articles on firing engines...well worth the read. Try them all for several months each and find what works for you.


It will take time to get right...many months- many thousands of shots. I've been at it for about a year and I'm still not where I want to be...but I'm much, much closer than I was 6 months ago. I owe this to the coaches I have access to where I shoot/work (help out) and the resourses here. Had I gone it on my own I'd have though that I "got it" after just a few weeks too. 

Padgetts suggestion of using multiple release throughout the session is great advice. When I first started shooting releases, each one placed the arrows in a different location. Now, I don't have near that problem. Some arrows are off but not near the amount and distance they used to be.


----------



## Mahly (Dec 18, 2002)

1) I AM agreeing with most of what has been said (Pagett's articles are of the best you'll find IMO).
2) I know that right now (start of indoor season) you don't want to either quit indoor season or quit your hinge.
That said, IF you can't/won't take the time to learn the hinge away from competition, try this.
You've stated you come to the click before aiming, but punch and hit a 6/7 when you hear it. This tells me you ARE aiming (if subconsciously) when you get to the click.
I understand pointing at the target before your engine starts, but it's messing with you.
Watch your level until the click if you are going to rotate it to the click (again, not the best way... This is last ditch stuff if you can't/won't do what was written above).
You have no reason to punch, because your not even on target yet.

Again, I highly suggest you take the earlier advice, but this may help if your not ready to give your hinge and engine all of your time.


----------



## N7709K (Dec 17, 2008)

put the hinge away; you're only going to set yourself back if you stick it out. 

Learn the release; not how to just make it go off, learn the ins and outs of making the release go off the same each and every time. Shoot your button for comps and 20yds; leave the hinge at home with the close bale.


----------



## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

Wyotarget said:


> I put my thumb trigger away and refuse to even bring it to the range 3 weeks ago.
> I blank baled for two solid weeks to get comfortable with the shot process. Now I've introduced a target to get ready for a tournament this weekend.
> 
> What I'm struggling with is on a target some of my shots* I punch the release when the click happens*. But I don't do this on a blank bale. When I punch it tends to be a 7 or 6 but when I don't it falls in the x. I shot one of my highest X counts the other night but had the lowest scores I've shot in 3 years. 423 23x compared to my old average on 442 16-18 x.
> ...


What release? If you can, moons usually turn over to eliminate the clicker. Or get a hinge without a clicker.

field14 along time ago, words to effect; The worst thing about a clicker is people will punch them. 

Two recommendations by those is in the know; 1- None other than the Great Randy Ulmer; Put all index and thumb releases away and stay with the hinge until well learned of the hinge. Will scores suffer as you get use to a hinge? Yes, but constant use can have you improve. 2- Like those who replied here, use a familiar release for competition and practice/learn your butt off with the hinge until you learn all. Not unheard of is going months before becoming proficient with a hinge.

I tried a hinge, have 4 of them, did well and do well at times, but never confident of them.


----------



## Wyotarget (Mar 17, 2013)

I start out holding above the tArget as I draw. And as I'm setting the hing to the click I am dropping in from above. When I here the click as I'm rotating i instantaneously grip the release that makes it fire. Not meaning to. Out of 45 arrows or so this happens 3-5 times. 

But sounds like I need more time in the release. By leaving the thumb button at home it makes me force my self to work with the hinge. I fight it because I feel so much movement before it goes off.


----------



## Justin (Aug 11, 2003)

I struggle with a clicker... I don't currently use one, flip the moon and its probably smooth, I like that much better.. with that being said, im going to try going back to a clicker this year.. I shoot best when my hinge is super light, but when the pressure is on at a big shoot that im excited about, I usually put one 12" above the target during my draw cycle... my only problem with the hinge.


----------



## ron w (Jan 5, 2013)

a click does nothing for your execution, if you don't modify the your mental process to accommodate it. it is there, therefore it has to be considered part of the execution, but the execution must be changed to allow it to be a purposeful element, within the execution. 
it must be looked at as, "what happens before the click", and " what happens after the click", with the click being the separator between all the elements of your shot sequence that leads up to your hard aim and release execution, and all the elements that are not your hard aim and release execution.
this criteria must be as clear as a bell in your mental process of the shot.....with rock solid clear definitions that put those elements in one group or the other.
the problem most people have, is when they let elements of one group, slip into the group that contains the other elements.
the way you apply these definitions, is with a short pause in your execution, at the click. that pause at the click, says,.... "OK, all that is left is , hard aim and the release execution".
having the click, sound as you anchor, is not necessarily any better than having to rotate to the click. the reason being, that the definitions of the elements that are separated by the click, are then muddied, when the click sounds as you anchor. 
I personally think it's actually worse, and somewhat confusing to your shot process. it is this reason that it is confusing and guys have problems using a click.....
as you anchor, you are acquiring the target, settling in and waiting for your float to develop. this is not the time you are ready to start hard aim and your release execution, is it ?.. if the click has already sounded, the green light to run your release execution is already on, but the shot hasn't developed far enough to have that green light be on, yet because you are just acquiring the target and waiting for your float to settle in. at this point, with the above criteria , the definitions of the elements that belong on either side of the click, have slipped out of their respective groups and rather than waiting for your float to develop you start hard aiming, when your float isn't fully settled into the shot.
the result of this is what allot of guys describe as the click "startling them". once that happens, the "good shot" is all over.


----------



## EPLC (May 21, 2002)

I believe a click can be helpful if it is associated with the setup phase of your shot process as it can help with the development of a consistent release hand position. If the click is included as part of the firing engine it can really mess you up.


----------



## bigHUN (Feb 5, 2006)

Also, please take in consideration that beside the fact the hinges are very popular not neceserily your brain will accept it....
This happened to me, I was a 300 shooter with pretty high x's, also a FITA with high x's, wanted to go further and just for a need more x's I listened people and jump into buying a hinge, tried almost all of them through several months.....my brain just didn't want to accept the motion once I am locked on X and still need to move anything the elbow or the wrist or just any motion....the brain didn't accept, I was training it for months, I had to step out from forcing it....
Just because the hinge is popular don't force it...
I went back to my cascades = relax style, I come to close proximity on a ring and push the thumb trigger, I lock the X and start relaxing all the muscles (in wrist, arm and fingers), the spring goes off in 4-5 seconds as a surprise....and I can shoot any surprise style release have absolutely no issues hitting with consistency...
One more thing, is the hinge more accurate then any other release? No, it is not, your brain controls everything....


----------



## EPLC (May 21, 2002)

bigHUN said:


> Also, please take in consideration that beside the fact the hinges are very popular not neceserily your brain will accept it....
> This happened to me, I was a 300 shooter with pretty high x's, also a FITA with high x's, wanted to go further and just for a need more x's I listened people and jump into buying a hinge, tried almost all of them through several months.....my brain just didn't want to accept the motion once I am locked on X and still need to move anything the elbow or the wrist or just any motion....the brain didn't accept, I was training it for months, I had to step out from forcing it....
> Just because the hinge is popular don't force it...
> I went back to my cascades = relax style, I come to close proximity on a ring and push the thumb trigger, I lock the X and start relaxing all the muscles (in wrist, arm and fingers), the spring goes off in 4-5 seconds as a surprise....and I can shoot any surprise style release have absolutely no issues hitting with consistency...
> One more thing, is the hinge more accurate then any other release? No, it is not, your brain controls everything....


This is absolutely true. The only reason I use one is that I tend to punch triggers after about a week of using one... but until I start punching them I generally shoot thumb buttons very well.


----------



## field14 (May 21, 2002)

Pick ONE release, set it, and forget about making any changes to the speed or anything else. Just because one night it is going off correctly and then the next it isn't is NOT reason enough to change the speed of the release! The release aid didn't change....YOU CHANGED.

If you keep thinking back to "what used to be" with your other release aid, you will never get anywhere. Take all of the other releases out of your case, stick them in the drawer AT HOME and forget about them!

You cannot learn or try 2, 3, 4 releases at a time; it will NEVER work! Bite the bullet, make the commitment, and stick it out!

Once again: SET IT AND FORGET IT. Learn to shoot it as is. Trust me. Trying to fine tweak a hinge is like a puppy chasing its tail and will get you nowhere. Same with a trigger, too. SET IT AND FORGET IT! Fast today, slow tomorrow, then just right, then too slow? Yep, that is the way it is, but tweaking the release will frustrate the heck out of you!

I can blank bale it to perfection, but put up that target face and it is a different ball game all together! So, I went to "blind bale" shooting for score. Google "ProActive Archery", you will easily find it. There are chapters in that book that talk about the "Blind Bale Method" that will work and will add some challenge to your practice sessions as well.
Next, like me, just sit down, admit that you have "target Panic" and commit to ridding yourself of it and stop trying to "Get ready for this tournament or that league"...tough it out, swallow your pride and ALWAYS practice with a PLAN...a WRITTEN plan; stick to it, and keep a written journal, too.
Progress with this TP is going to be slow; it took you a long time to build in the mistakes, so with a PLAN you gotta rid yourself of the mistakes..>ONE at a time!
Been there, doing that!
field14 (Tom D.)


----------



## jeff257stw (Dec 18, 2009)

Take the click out!!!!! It is about a surprise release. It's not a surprise with a click.


----------



## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

field14 said:


> Pick ONE release, set it, and forget about making any changes to the speed or anything else. Just because one night it is going off correctly and then the next it isn't is NOT reason enough to change the speed of the release! The release aid didn't change....YOU CHANGED.
> 
> If you keep thinking back to "what used to be" with your other release aid, you will never get anywhere.  Take all of the other releases out of your case, stick them in the drawer AT HOME and forget about them!
> 
> ...


About time you showed up.....Tom he may come off cantankerous, but has lots of wisdom acquired over the years.


----------



## 2little2late (Dec 25, 2006)

jeff257stw said:


> Take the click out!!!!! It is about a surprise release. It's not a surprise with a click.


Why is it not?


----------



## Mahly (Dec 18, 2002)

Used correctly, it is still, very much, a surprise release.


----------



## Joe Schnur (Mar 22, 2012)

Check your pm wyotarget


----------



## Joe Schnur (Mar 22, 2012)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aNslq2UEiWM
Griv has several videos on hinge use George Ryals (griv)


----------



## Joe Schnur (Mar 22, 2012)

http://youtu.be/Y8glZiI9fUw 
Sorry could not get it to play last night and linked the wrong one here you go


----------



## ron w (Jan 5, 2013)

I look at that "surprise release" issue differently, I guess. the idea of a "surprise release" is completely contrary to what is known as good shooting.
I don't believe that in a well trained execution, there is, nor can be a "surprise release". 
the entire purpose of loading and drawing your bow, is to expect the shot to go off. most advanced shooters, know the exact moment their shot will break, to the fraction of a second. the difference lies in how you react to the shot breaking.
one of the very best training drills for target accuracy, has you timing your shots, and training them to go within a second or so consistency. the whole idea is to eliminate the "surprise release. execute the release deliberately, and train your shot process to work with the same cadence every shot. then, learn that what you do, when the shot breaks is what makes the shot good or not.
we all have an "internal clock", that organizes and coordinates frequently done activities in your brain. this "internal clock", learns what will produce the best results of these activities, and coordinates the commands to the point that every element of the shot's process, is ready for the shot to break at the same time. when this happens, you know when the shot will break, internally and your shot process gets ready to react in a way that has the least influence on the shot. it cannot do this, if the shot is a surprise.
this "shot timing" , or "shot widow drill", is the drill that trains your shot process, to know when the shot is going to break and coordinate that knowledge with the period of lest float in your aiming process, so not only do you know when the shot will break, but you know that when the float is least, the shot will break....therefore, you not only know when it is going to happen, you can visually recognize the time it will happen, by seeing your float come to settle and not be surprised by it happening. you are teaching the shot process, to "expect the shot to break at a specific time during your execution, and expecting the shot to break, during that time.


----------



## montigre (Oct 13, 2008)

^^ Agree. The surprise is like riding a bike for the first time with training wheels. After a while, the trainers come off and your body knows what and how to do what it needs to do to keep you off the pavement. Switch releases and you may get a surprise for a few days, but if it hangs around for much longer than that, then there is possibly a breakdown in your shot timing/execution that needs to be looked into further.


----------



## 2little2late (Dec 25, 2006)

I really think the word surprise release has probably evolved into a common phrase to mean the opposite of drive by and slap the snot out of a trigger. In that regard I suppose the word surprise may be OK. 

Anyway, I always thought in the back of my mind that ron w's thoughts in post 26 may be the way to go. Maybe not the whole answer, but at least a good start. I used to shoot better and am having a hard time finding the answer to why I am struggling a bit without a real coach to work one on one with me. Thank you for bringing this to light.


----------



## Mahly (Dec 18, 2002)

I think it's somewhat how you really define surprise.
I want to know the release will go off, and in a relatively small window of time. But I don't want to know to within .1 seconds of when it will fire. If you have a 2 second window (takes 2-4 seconds after starting, or 3-5 etc) that's pretty consistent, you are set up to do well.


----------



## Joe Schnur (Mar 22, 2012)

There is a difference between having a consistent process and the release going off 6 to 7 seconds from engine start and knowing when it will go absolutely knowing when it will release leads to anticipation and the evils that go with it ( tp, punching, flinching when it does not go off.)


----------



## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

One of the things I think you have to remember is there a lot of guys who just take their thumb off the thumb peg and then just stand there and wait for it to go off. They have the hinge set really fast and sooner or later it just fires. Many of these guys have been brain washed into believing that any thing other than back tension is a bad thing and so they lock up their fingers in fear that they might rotate the hinge with the fingers. 

I shot this way back in the beginning of my hinge shooting because I had been told so many times that squeezing the fingers or rotating the release in any way was cheating or cranking and just wrong. The surprise that I was getting was a awesome one but not a good or productive one.

This is why I now understand that you must have a job to do once you start your shot, I call it a firing engine just because I like the way that simple phrase sounds and it does a great job of telling a shooter new or old that the engine is a moving thing. Engines have movement in them in the form of rotation and to me this totally has good application right here in hinge shooting. You guys did a great job of mentioning that we fire within a window and this should totally be expressed in a guys approach to training. Learning how to run your firing engine so that it fires your hinge within a nice little window of 2 to 5 seconds allows you to start your engine at a good time where your float has started looking good and is going to give you that great shot sometime within that 2 to 5 seconds when the hinge decides to fire.

I think in the last year we are doing a much better job of getting these thoughts out there to shooters, I personally try and do so all day long every time a guy has a thread in the general section and it is making its way out there. I know that the information just wasn't readily available back when I started 4 years ago because I read everything from books to all the threads here and it was next to impossible to find but I think right now it is hard to not have your hands on it if you are looking.


----------



## bigHUN (Feb 5, 2006)

Im not bashing a hinge, it is up to you how much time you want to dedicate, but .....I figure for myself, the amount of time I've spent learning the hinge I would master where I was before :wink:


----------



## Joe Schnur (Mar 22, 2012)

Padgett I think you nailed it consistent engine 2 to 5 from float stabalization is optimal. Repeatability is key


----------



## schnauza2000 (Dec 27, 2013)

Watching this dude helped me a lot- I take a very deep grip all the time now. There's hardly any movement in my hand as I pull through.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0KFLgkASUHE

You'll also notice that he has his release set super stone cold. I think it's harder to punch that way. Keep reading and keep practicing. Padgett and NutsNBolts have some great articles about hinge shooting out there. I've been shooting a hinge for a year now and I've just gotten comfortable within the last few months. Be patient and you'll get it.


----------



## schnauza2000 (Dec 27, 2013)

I found this thread very helpful as far as getting the motion down. Watching a release close up has helped me 'burn a neural pathway' so to speak.

http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=2317203


----------



## Joe Schnur (Mar 22, 2012)

The fellow in the video dumps the release with fingers and wrist. Not exactly a text book release more of a dump if he was one of my students I would be working on release activation. That deep of a grip leaves no choice but to manipulate the release ( punch or command release)


----------



## skiisme753 (Jan 15, 2013)

One thing with a hinge is the more tension you have in your hand and forearm the more difficult it become to fire and the natural reaction is to tense up even more. Keeping things relaxed and the same really is important. Also paying attention to the release angle is very important because a slight variation in angle can drastically change how quickly the release fires. 

I like to have my hinges set fairly slow so I can draw with even pressure with no fear of the release going off. You can't be fearful that your release is going to go off too early. Sometimes I set my release extremely slow and focus on pulling through and executing a perfect shot. No worries about the release going off early and not forcing it either. Then I gradually speed my release up until it is comfortable for me. Not too slow that you have to work hard, but not so fast that I worry about it going off until I'm anchored and ready.


----------



## Pete53 (Dec 5, 2011)

now i do not have the knowledge these guys do have, i now use a carter honey-do without the clicker, i really like the quick thumb safety for let downs on this honey-do, ok now back to your problem i do have my hinge set very heavy and pull into the limbs hard ,as some say to try and break those limbs, if i don`t pull into limbs i have to let down my because my hinge release will not go off and then start over, the other thing i try to remember to do is touch my shoulder once the hinge release goes off if i do those things along with my form its always an X. now boy isn`t that simple ? but being a type A person yep its still hard .so always try to touch that shoulder once that hinge release goes off and that`s much more blind shooting and yep that`s boring ,but that`s how you bring home the bacon."a hinge takes 6 months to a year to learn to shoot correctly ,hinge release is not a quick fix " good luck and have a great indoor season,Pete53


----------



## schnauza2000 (Dec 27, 2013)

Joe, my experience with a deep grip has been the complete opposite of what you describe--out of probably 6,000 practice shots since the spring, I've punched the release about three times. The guy who started the thread had problems with punching, and that's why I commented. Now, I do manipulate the release with my hand just a bit- to shift the pressure to my second and third fingers. After that though, it's just a pull-through. It goes off very consistently for me. Most importantly, it's a process that I don't have to put any conscious thought into. Punching is a conscious action. 
How does one actuate a hinge without rotating it around the pivot point?


----------



## Pete53 (Dec 5, 2011)

i would like to mention this small detail on what release you use, it depends on what type personality person you are ,like i said i am a type A, so i have to shoot a dang hinge to compete , i have a son that`s type B and has alot of state awards , my good friend who`s got a few silver bowls is a type B also those two archer`s can dig into a barrel pull out a release and shoot 300 55 X` all day ,so to speak. and yes its not fare that some people are type B with ice in their vanes, many type B`s don`t shoot archery but the ones that do win much more than type A`s,just a fact of life.good luck to all and have a great thanksgiving with your families,Pete53


----------



## schnauza2000 (Dec 27, 2013)

Very true Pete53. I'm somewhere in between. I have to trust my process, and I do... sometimes.

Joe, I watched the Griv video you linked to before, and I'll give it a try. Just not sure if I'll be able to get over the feeling of the release slipping out of my hand.


----------



## Joe Schnur (Mar 22, 2012)

I have studied the top archers around and have seen the very best. None do a deep grip. The video is definitely manipulating the pinky and ring finger and wrist to make the release go off. Simply my observation. That is not back tension


----------



## ron w (Jan 5, 2013)

dead on, Joe ! so many people have no real understanding of what "real back tension" is.


----------



## dgmeadows (Jun 15, 2005)

Joe Schnur said:


> I have studied the top archers around and have seen the very best. None do a deep grip. The video is definitely manipulating the pinky and ring finger and wrist to make the release go off. Simply my observation. That is not back tension


Agreed. No offense to the fellow in the video, but I would suggest Larry Wise and GRIV offer better instruction on the "proper" way to utilize back tension.


----------



## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

Joe Schnur said:


> I have studied the top archers around and have seen the very best. None do a deep grip. The video is definitely manipulating the pinky and ring finger and wrist to make the release go off. Simply my observation. That is not back tension





ron w said:


> dead on, Joe ! so many people have no real understanding of what "real back tension" is.


Most start out with a hinge and never really "feel" what's going on. Try feeling what's going on without worrying about the arrow goes, close your eyes, anything to "feel" what's going on. Understanding it may help with actual using one. 
I truly believe one can't learn back tension in the true sense using anything other than a hinge type release.


----------



## TNMAN (Oct 6, 2009)

You may be able to find help in DB's good effort to have a few well known pro's explain how they work a shot. http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=1676924


----------



## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

TNMAN said:


> You may be able to find help in DB's good effort to have a few well known pro's explain how they work a shot. http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=1676924


Read that a long time ago, two years? If you're winning with "cheating" a hinge no one is going to hang you


----------



## carlosii (Feb 25, 2007)

OK, if you're "pulling hard into the limbs" as someone on here said, are you not putting tension in the shot that will make it more difficult to have a "relaxed" float? Or am I just confused?


----------



## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

You are not confused....not if you're relating of non-giving walls like Martins and Pearsons.


----------



## ILOVE3D (Feb 4, 2009)

carlosii said:


> OK, if you're "pulling hard into the limbs" as someone on here said, are you not putting tension in the shot that will make it more difficult to have a "relaxed" float? Or am I just confused?


Your statement sure works for me. When I first started using a hinge I didn't know how to set it up and was pulling so hard I almost tore my rotator cuff trying to get it to go off. Float, mine was totally non-existent because I was pulling so hard there wasn't any level of relaxation or smoothness at all in my first efforts. I finally read some stuff by Padgett and learned how to set up my hinge. First off, I shoot with a low elbow rather one that's relatively high and it's been my observation that while learning to shoot a hinge I can pull all I want but the hinge will not fire until it is ROTATED and the amount of rotation needed depends on how cold or hot the hinge is set up. While some releases do fire with just pulling because they are set to go off at a certain poundage. As you know a hinge needs to be rotated in order for it to release the string. I've read where some guys Griv included just relax the hand holding the hinge causing it to go off but I maintain by relaxing the hand you are allowing the hinge to rotate causing it to fire. I've also read this from Nuts&Bolts as he has explained and it makes perfect sense as I've experienced it first hand. I finally do have a smooth release and I must say it is more of a surprise when it goes off than the feeling of when one punches the trigger on a thumb puncher. Yes, my float is finally fairly good or should I say small compared to when I first tried a hinge.


----------



## ron w (Jan 5, 2013)

one of the issues that brought on all this misconception about how back tension is really supposed to work and the issues people are having about rotating with their fingers instead of back tension, is the fact that the walls have become very hard. it becomes ever so important that your draw length is perfect, for this reason, as well.


----------



## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

ron w said:


> one of the issues that brought on all this misconception about how back tension is really supposed to work and the issues people are having about rotating with their fingers instead of back tension, is the fact that the walls have become very hard. it becomes ever so important that your draw length is perfect, for this reason, as well.


Absolutely! Back tension requires some "give" to get things to move. Hard into the wall it's difficult to get movement. Martin's, like Carlos has, have a single bottom limb draw stop and a hard wall, but not granite hard like the dual (top and bottom) draw stops on my Pearsons (3 of them).


----------



## ILOVE3D (Feb 4, 2009)

ron w said:


> one of the issues that brought on all this misconception about how back tension is really supposed to work and the issues people are having about rotating with their fingers instead of back tension, is the fact that the walls have become very hard. it becomes ever so important that your draw length is perfect, for this reason, as well.


First Ron, I have to agree with you 100% about dl having to be perfect. I am shooting bows with PSE mini evo (me) cams and draw stops on both top and bottom. When I come to full draw and settle in, I have my hinge set with a click and it "clicks" as I settle in at full draw. From that point call it what you will, BT or rotating the hinge my shot breaks when after all things are 100% and it feels right I apply extra BT. Not much extra BT is needed as you might guess but just enough and if all is not 100% right I am able to let down without having the shot go off inadvertently. With this process I am able to concentrate on the X or center of the gold where I want to hit. I am not having to pull to the extent that it effects my float. I have been really concentrating on my shot process, knowing when it is as good as it's going to get and also knowing when it isn't and letting down. I'm not sure how well this process will work for me when I move back because for now I have been only shooting at 5 yards. I can say this though, my confidence is getting much better and keeping shots inside the x ring is becoming increasingly easy. Still plenty of time to move back a little at a time because indoor competition season for me doesn't start for over a month. I know when I started this process that keeping even 10 shots in a row inside the x ring at 5 yards was not an easy task. Several things helped bring this about for me, getting DL CORRECT, hinge setting correct, stabilization on both front and side bar set for best float, confidence and really knowing my shot and learning it 100% with the hinge and oh yes, reading and listening to all the tips you and several others on here in the IA forum have been so kind as to share. Oh yes, also playing with several different power lens and circles, rings, fibers and dots to find what works best for me. I thank all of you for your willingness to share your knowledge for that.


----------



## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

I got lucky and this fall my strings stretched on my specialist and it was pulling 29.5 inches even though it was in the 29 setting and my cpxl was dead on 29, I thought they felt different because they were just different bows but actually it was the half inch in draw length that made the big difference in feel. My hinges were set up to the cpxl because I had shot if for the end of the 3d season and when I went into the indoor range and was shooting the specialist they were way the freak to fast so I had to set them up to the specialist. Then after a week or two of shooting indoor I went back out with my cpxl to shoot in my yard and holy crap I couldn't get them to fire without really running a aggressive firing engine that produced a bunch of rotation.

Shooting a hinge to me really is about getting the speed really spot on perfect so that you can draw safely with all fingers and come to anchor with a specific draw length and then run a simply firing engine that produces some rotation and the arrow is gone. 

1. With my hinges set up to a 29 draw they were perfect

2. when I went to a 29.5 draw it stretched me out enough that the rotation of the hinge was different at full draw and made the hinge dangerously fast.

3. when I set it up to that bow it was again perfect

4. when I shot it with the 29 inch bow now I was more compact and not as stretched out and the hinge showed a different speed setting.

To me this is why most all pro shooters know exactly how long their draw length should be with any bow and they make sure it is spot on perfect.


----------



## Ned250 (Aug 10, 2009)

Padgett said:


> 2. when I went to a 29.5 draw it stretched me out enough that the rotation of the hinge was different at full draw and made the hinge dangerously fast.


I find this pretty surprising since I've found the opposite to be true. When my DL is too long, it takes an eternity to fire the hinge. Conversely, a short DL made the hinge dangerously fast.


----------



## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

Cool, I am a one bow guy. i have shot tens of thousands of shots through the specialist for almost 4 years now and it was the only bow I shot during that time, the new cpxl is the first bow that I have spent any time with other than the specialist so my findings could be totally opposite from what I remember.

What is important to me is how important hinge speed is to successful hinge shooting and secondly that exact draw length also makes a huge difference in that shooting. For me I am now a solid hinge shooter so it was a minor thing that my ability to change firing engines allowed me to generate a bunch of rotation or limit it depending on what bow I was shooting. Third I knew that by setting up my hinge for my primary bow that I was going to be shooting was also a smart thing. I did change the mod on the cpxl to 29.5 inches and matched it up with the specialist and now they both feel identical at full draw.


----------

