# The Problem!



## EPLC

Lot's of conflict here lately (and perhaps not just lately)

Here's the problem as I see it. There are those who have little or no problem holding the dot in the middle. Those in this group have either a natural ability or have discovered and developed this ability over time, I believe most were just born with it and with training and practice it has become second nature. When these folks say "Just put the pin in the middle and shoot your shot" (or the endless variations of that), they take for granted that others can just do this. 

For those that have difficulty holding in the middle statements such as this mean very little and much of what follows is pointless. You can't get to second base if you can't get to first. Yet, Group one feels frustrated that the group two people are not listening and the group two folks feel frustrated that the group one folks are holding back and not sharing their "secrets"... Naturally the group two people have had to develop along a different path and will have differences of opinion as to what works for them. Very few in group 2, if any, will ever shoot a 60X game. My PB was 57X and that was a long time ago. 

So, here we are... 

To prove or disprove my point I put out the following challenge to those that belong to the new semi-private target archery group: Please specifically describe how do you hold the pin in the middle? I'll bet most can't put it into words that the group 2 folks can grasp or understand or put into practice.


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## SonnyThomas

Yes, language/description/understanding barrier....


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## thawk

EPLC, the problem is each persons "holding in the middle" is different and non of the self proclaimed experts that come to this sub forum to dazzle everyone with their double talk "knowledge" are holding in the middle, if they did we would be listening to Chance, Jessie, Reo, Mike, Logan, George and the other top pros that shoot 899+ in vegas. Most of the "self appointed" on here have the release down to perfection as they have written so many posts on how to do it that they must be perfection on the release, that leaves weather they aim good or not. So do you really think any of us are holding in the middle?

Here is my opinion and how I approach it,on good days I can still keep my pin near the 10 ring(vegas target) it might sit perfectly for a second or two but most of the time it's moving, if I'm shooting a surprise release I'm playing the odds that its in the 10 more then it's out of the 10. Lots of things can help you aim better from bow setup to diet and exercise, no caffeine is a biggie for me, but as I get older I have to realize I'm never going to hold as good as I did 15 years ago


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## dmacey

Yep I'm in group 1 also so I too can't benefit from "just-hold-still" either lol. I can only try to make my float better with various items like higher holding weight, try to have good form, proper bow setup, etc. 
I can certainly imagine that it's just intuitive to group 2 - to them it probably just is "just hold it in the middle". 

slightly OT: I do notice my hold is significantly better with my recurve. That may be because of the gargantuan holding weight which almost negates any natural torque on the handle. I couldn't crank that thing around with the bowhand at full draw even if I wanted to....

DM


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## Lazarus

EPLC said:


> To prove or disprove my point I put out the following challenge to those that belong to the new semi-private target archery group: Please specifically describe how do you hold the pin in the middle? I'll bet most can't put it into words that the group 2 folks can grasp or understand or put into practice.


Can't prove or disprove your points. But I will say this, I'm content with my level of "just put it in the middle and shoot," there is a certain amount of success that can veryify that it works. But that's not the point of my response. 

The point of my response is this; I have no earthly idea precisely what it was that got me to that point of a decent hold. If I were to be forced to give a definitive answer I would probably say it was a combination of about 10 things, then shooting enough to be able to meld those ten things together to a point that works for me. But again, to be able to define it with words, I don't believe it's possible. 

And herein lies a huge problem with archery, there are those who want "instructions" on how to perform the act. I believe what I'm about to say is fact, and that is; beyond a certain level there are no instructions. There is only a search to find what works for you, and that search usually can't be "coached" or read about in a book written by someone who's never done it. With all due respect. 

:cheers:


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## montigre

I have never been one who has been able to hold steady in the middle. I started this game too far from my physical prime to be able to realistically accomplish that feat--my highest score was a 300 53x that I shot in league, but that was also prior to the shoulder surgery on my bow arm (again no excuse, but fact). Knowing my physical state and age, I know I will never be a high x count shooter and generally, on a good day my float will play around in the 10 ring or the 5 ring on a field face and I try to keep my focus on the desired POI until I hear that thwack of the arrow. If I stuck to my process and did not allow my concentration to break down, it will be a 10 or a 5--an x if the stars were also aligned with Jupiter... 

Since my surgery, I am now looking at a float that is about twice as large as before (it was about 4 x as large when I started retraining for competition last year) and I am working hard to try to bring it back down to some reasonably acceptable level where it remains in the 10 MOST OF THE TIME. This is requiring much more physical and mental effort on my part--meaning taking a very hard look at maximizing mass weight vs holding weight, adding stretching and resistance training of those small muscles that support the shoulder so the joint is better able to handle the weight and oppositional forces being applied to it during a shot, and not allowing myself to get too frustrated when it simply does not come together. 

So to answer your question, I really do not believe there is a group of secrets pertaining to holding well that are being withheld from the masses, it has much more to do with physical conditioning, age, one's ability to concentrate well, and their mental fortitude...


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## cbrunson

Lazarus said:


> Can't prove or disprove your points. But I will say this, I'm content with my level of "just put it in the middle and shoot," there is a certain amount of success that can veryify that it works. But that's not the point of my response.
> 
> The point of my response is this; I have no earthly idea precisely what it was that got me to that point of a decent hold. If I were to be forced to give a definitive answer I would probably say it was a combination of about 10 things, then shooting enough to be able to meld those ten things together to a point that works for me. But again, to be able to define it with words, I don't believe it's possible.
> 
> And herein lies a huge problem with archery, there are those who want "instructions" on how to perform the act. I believe what I'm about to say is fact, and that is; *beyond a certain level there are no instructions. There is only a search to find what works for you, and that search usually can't be "coached" or read about in a book written by someone who's never done it.* With all due respect.
> 
> :cheers:


I will leave it at that ^^^^^

Well said.


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## dk_ace1

EPLC said:


> Lot's of conflict here lately (and perhaps not just lately)
> 
> Here's the problem as I see it. There are those who have little or no problem holding the dot in the middle. Those in this group have either a natural ability or have discovered and developed this ability over time, I believe most were just born with it and with training and practice it has become second nature. When these folks say "Just put the pin in the middle and shoot your shot" (or the endless variations of that), they take for granted that others can just do this.
> 
> For those that have difficulty holding in the middle statements such as this mean very little and much of what follows is pointless. You can't get to second base if you can't get to first. Yet, Group one feels frustrated that the group two people are not listening and the group two folks feel frustrated that the group one folks are holding back and not sharing their "secrets"... Naturally the group two people have had to develop along a different path and will have differences of opinion as to what works for them. Very few in group 2, if any, will ever shoot a 60X game. My PB was 57X and that was a long time ago.
> 
> So, here we are...
> 
> To prove or disprove my point I put out the following challenge to those that belong to the new semi-private target archery group: Please specifically describe how do you hold the pin in the middle? I'll bet most can't put it into words that the group 2 folks can grasp or understand or put into practice.


I'm new here and not shooting at a professional level. What I will say is that the descriptions your looking for of how they do this are already posted on the forum if you look around. I know that because I've searched for them and studied them.

Here's what I learned in doing that: Some people are able to hold very close to still in the middle and shoot very high X counts as a result. The way they do that won't work exactly for me as I'm a different size/shape/age/etc, but if there is a way they can do it there's probably a way I can do it or get close. I've got to figure out how to do that for myself. I'm using how they do it as a guide of the things I might try, but I'm doing it with the expectation that the ultimate solution for me will be a little different than it was for them. As long as I continue trying and getting better though, it's a worthwhile exercise.

For a long time, I didn't try very hard to tighten up my holding ability because everyone was saying "let it float." I've appreciated the comments of some who are able to hold very still in the middle as they've convinced me to quit accepting so much movement and strive for something better. I'm shooting better as a result. I'm not shooting as well as I ultimately want to, but for now I'll take shooting better and continuing to progress.

D


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## aread

Thanks to following cbrunson's suggestions from a few months ago, my hold is better now than ever. I've been doing a few equipment related thing too. However, I'm not shooting as well as I used to. Age is catching up with me, but the biggest problem is going from hold to execution without pulling the bow one way or the other. I think I've got that working out, but IMO holding good is useless without being able to execute without screwing up the hold.


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## LMacD

I'm going to make a comparison here between two disciplines that might or might not apply. I realize some might strongly disagree with the comparison - I'll take the risk. 

I think breathing is a big factor in this holding steady equation. And perhaps - as in I'm guessing here - it's one of those things that many "talented" people tend to do more innately and therefore aren't thinking about it.

Now the comparison: when I was a kid, I routinely shot in a rifle club with Bob Barwise who was a Queen's Prize winner at Bisley and had a trophy room full of other accomplishments. Being that the club was comprised of many very serious riflemen, such as my dad, as well as hobbyists, people would often chat with Bob for his insight, and breathing - in particular control of - was what I most often remember hearing. Of course there were passing references to trigger pull, rifle weight, gear, loads, etc, but nothing was talked about more than breathing. Not jerking the trigger was of course important, but in this group of, dare I say, "intermediate to advanced" shooters, we didn't spend a lot of time dissecting trigger pull. 

Unfortunately, given how long ago that was [32 years I believe], I can't remember the exact words of Bob's advice, but I do very vividly remember in my own shooting two "base" methods dominating: 1) settling into the shot - the macro level stuff of raising the rifle, shouldering it, settling into the sight, coming on the target, preparing to engage the trigger...but then the rubber really hit the road - the breathing. I would not begin to squeeze the trigger until the precise moment after I had let out my breath - which was a very relaxed but controlled exhale. After that, I remember a very calm overall feeling as I'd engage the trigger, and it would never take more than 3 seconds for the shot to fire - always somewhat of a surprise. The other approach I remember using was very similar in set up, but beginning to engage the shot about half way through letting out my breath - again, a very relaxed but controlled exhale, not a "whoosh" sort of thing at all. 

Both methods seemed to work well, but the former, if memory serves, was a bit better. It's like when I'd hit that full exhale [again, I'm talking about the moment of, not 5 seconds later when the body starts to crave air] everything seemed to just sit in a brief moment of overall "stillness". Although I'm only as good as my word, I can say with sincerity that I shot a lot of 100's [although I must say I never did get the 100 10x :-(] using this approach. 

Anyway, just some food for thought. Yours to enjoy or ignore as you see fit


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## stromdidilly

aread said:


> Thanks to following cbrunson's suggestions from a few months ago, my hold is better now than ever. I've been doing a few equipment related thing too. However, I'm not shooting as well as I used to. Age is catching up with me, but the biggest problem is going from hold to execution without pulling the bow one way or the other. I think I've got that working out, but IMO holding good is useless without being able to execute without screwing up the hold.


THIS!

His posts are the only I can remember that explicitly laid out a path on how to get that dot to sit still...


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## subconsciously

All I know is that if the pin will not settle in, I cannot process the shot.


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## jelmore

Sometimes "non instruction" IS the instruction somebody may need. This is probably something a good coach would tell their student at the right time. Thanks for the input.


Lazarus said:


> Can't prove or disprove your points. But I will say this, I'm content with my level of "just put it in the middle and shoot," there is a certain amount of success that can veryify that it works. But that's not the point of my response.
> 
> The point of my response is this; I have no earthly idea precisely what it was that got me to that point of a decent hold. If I were to be forced to give a definitive answer I would probably say it was a combination of about 10 things, then shooting enough to be able to meld those ten things together to a point that works for me. But again, to be able to define it with words, I don't believe it's possible.
> 
> And herein lies a huge problem with archery, there are those who want "instructions" on how to perform the act. I believe what I'm about to say is fact, and that is; beyond a certain level there are no instructions. There is only a search to find what works for you, and that search usually can't be "coached" or read about in a book written by someone who's never done it. With all due respect.
> 
> :cheers:


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## SonnyThomas

aread said:


> Thanks to following cbrunson's suggestions from a few months ago, my hold is better now than ever. I've been doing a few equipment related thing too. However, I'm not shooting as well as I used to. Age is catching up with me, but *the biggest problem is going from hold to execution without pulling the bow one way or the other. I think I've got that working out, but IMO holding good is useless without being able to execute without screwing up the hold.*


Have to agree, but say the start of execution, that little effort, can hold a pin virtually in the stop mode and the rest of the execution can ruin the shot.


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## EPLC

Lazarus said:


> Can't prove or disprove your points. But I will say this, I'm content with my level of "just put it in the middle and shoot," there is a certain amount of success that can veryify that it works. But that's not the point of my response.
> 
> The point of my response is this; I have no earthly idea precisely what it was that got me to that point of a decent hold. If I were to be forced to give a definitive answer I would probably say it was a combination of about 10 things, then shooting enough to be able to meld those ten things together to a point that works for me. But again, to be able to define it with words, I don't believe it's possible.
> 
> And herein lies a huge problem with archery, there are those who want "instructions" on how to perform the act. I believe what I'm about to say is fact, and that is; beyond a certain level there are no instructions. There is only a search to find what works for you, and that search usually can't be "coached" or read about in a book written by someone who's never done it. With all due respect.
> 
> :cheers:


Actually you did prove my point and very nicely at that. Virtually every other post (with the exception of those seconding yours) proved it as well, although in quite a different way. IMO having the ability to hold in the middle is a natural skill for most truly good archers, sure this natural skill needs to be developed and honed to higher levels but it was there from the very beginning. I believe most can't even explain it because it has been an automatic skill for so long. Sure there are exceptions but on the whole I think this remains true for the most part.


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## Reverend

Still taking it in... and experimenting.


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## RCR_III

I can second this. I remember when I first got back into archery because a friend of mine wanted someone to shoot with. I relented finally, because I knew I'd get hooked again and it would turn expensive haha, and he handed me his bow and I put six arrows in a tighter group than he'd been doing all day. He was so mad, but like you've said, it's just something I could do naturally. Now since then I've worked on tons of things to make it better and that list can go on and on and in detail however anyone wanted. But yes, some can just do certain skills better than others, easier than others. Not to say I'm anyone with exceptionally great talent, there are others better than me, there always will be. But there's others worse off too.


EPLC said:


> Actually you did prove my point and very nicely at that. Virtually every other post (with the exception of those seconding yours) proved it as well, although in quite a different way. IMO having the ability to hold in the middle is a natural skill for most truly good archers, sure this natural skill needs to be developed and honed to higher levels but it was there from the very beginning. I believe most can't even explain it because it has been an automatic skill for so long. Sure there are exceptions but on the whole I think this remains true for the most part.


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## jim p

I don't know if it is possible to tell someone how to how still. I can't hold still. 

Some spend months trying to find the exact draw length that will allow them to hold still. Some spend months trying to find the exact stabilizer setup that allows them to hold still.

I have been shooting for 45 years and I have never held still. Now that my eyesight is failing I sometimes think that I am holding still until I go to pull the arrows.


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## cbrunson

jim p said:


> Some spend months trying to find the exact draw length that will allow them to hold still. Some spend months trying to find the exact stabilizer setup that allows them to hold still.


I'm really liking your posts today. You bring up great points. Even if you maybe weren't expecting to. 

Also one of the places I've gotten into some debates in the past with other very experienced individuals. If you are looking for the answer in your equipment before you find it in your body and your mind, you will spin circles endlessly.


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## montigre

cbrunson said:


> Also one of the places I've gotten into some debates in the past with other very experienced individuals. If you are looking for the answer in your equipment before you find it in your body and your mind, you will spin circles endlessly.


^^^ This!!! Far too often shooters run to the presses to fix some issue they may be having without ever considering the root cause of that issue is likely within themselves and not a flaw in their equipment.


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## erdman41

To me thinking the others just have natural talent is your problem. You've failed before even getting started. What is the key to holding still? Attitude to me was the final piece of the puzzle. Gotta believe you can do it before you'll be able to do it. 95% of people's limitations are self imposed.


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## Lazarus

erdman41 said:


> To me thinking the others just have natural talent is your problem. You've failed before even getting started. What is the key to holding still? Attitude to me was the final piece of the puzzle. Gotta believe you can do it before you'll be able to do it. 95% of people's limitations are self imposed.


That is exactly right ^^^

To be very candid someone saying it's a "natural skill" is borderline offensive. In this case I'm certain EPLC meant no offense so it's no big deal. Often those who make that statement don't take into account (or know) how hard someone has worked to achieve a certain skill. 

I never achieved a hold that I was comfortable with until I stopped believing all the "let it float and shoot the shot" bs that I had heard and read about. When I realized I had never heard a top shooter make that statement and really started paying attention is when I started believing in possibilities rather than what some said was impossible. The harder I worked and the more I studied the intricacies of the final stages of the shot the better I held. So I guess it all boils down to; what do you believe? I will admit that there are those that will work just as hard but may never achieve a certain level of performing a certain task. It's just one of those cruel facts of life I guess.


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## RCR_III

Lazarus said:


> That is exactly right ^^^
> 
> To be very candid someone saying it's a "natural skill" is borderline offensive. In this case I'm certain EPLC meant no offense so it's no big deal. Often those who make that statement don't take into account (or know) how hard someone has worked to achieve a certain skill.
> 
> I never achieved a hold that I was comfortable with until I stopped believing all the "let it float and shoot the shot" bs that I had heard and read about. When I realized I had never heard a top shooter make that statement and really started paying attention is when I started believing in possibilities rather than what some said was impossible. The harder I worked and the more I studied the intricacies of the final stages of the shot the better I held. So I guess it all boils down to; what do you believe? I will admit that there are those that will work just as hard but may never achieve a certain level of performing a certain task. It's just one of those cruel facts of life I guess.


Hopefully you didn't take offense to what I said. I certainly didn't mean any. 

It's the same in any aspect of life, be it sports or not, some people are just wired to do certain things easier. 

Everyone has their own talents. Their own advantages. Just because one isn't yours doesn't mean you should be upset about it. It just means that area needs more attention and work.


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## erdman41

Lazarus said:


> I will admit that there are those that will work just as hard but may never achieve a certain level of performing a certain task. It's just one of those cruel facts of life I guess.


Some have to work way harder than others to achieve the same amount of success. But they both did the same thing in that they did whatever it took for them to succeed.


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## TNMAN

Have you ever seen a bunch guys in a gun store trying to hold a laser sited pistol on a mounted deer's eye, high on a wall 75 feet way? Half the people that try can't hold on the entire head, and a few can keep the light mildly twitching on the eye. But every so often there might be a guy show up that can will the laser to almost stop inside the eye. So at least some of it may be natural, imho.

But, this old target archer smoked 'em the day I tried it, so I believe that training is key.


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## pwyrick

Any reasonably capable athlete can shoot a bow well with some instruction and practice. They can shoot very well with good instruction and more practice. And, they can do this in a surprisingly short period of time. Getting to the top for a few just happens with hard work. For most who get to the top, I'd say they have become phenomenal technicians of the game. And, they add their own unique touches to the technical. For me as a reasonable (better than most) athlete who is a good technician, I'd like to hear descriptions of the unique touches from the best (or better) in our sport. Unlike EPLC, I do think words can describe what you are doing to get your hold to be better than the hold of most. I may not be able to benefit from your words, but then again, I might. And, I fully understand why some are reluctant to "cast their pearls before swine." We do act like pigs on occasion.


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## SonnyThomas

Natural talent, natural skill? How about a person having the ability to grasp some thing more easily than another?

Dang! I pulled in right after Laz and here I am behind others with near the same thing...


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## RCR_III

pwyrick said:


> Any reasonably capable athlete can shoot a bow well with some instruction and practice. They can shoot very well with good instruction and more practice. And, they can do this in a surprisingly short period of time. Getting to the top for a few just happens with hard work. For most who get to the top, I'd say they have become phenomenal technicians of the game. And, they add their own unique touches to the technical. For me as a reasonable (better than most) athlete who is a good technician, I'd like to hear descriptions of the unique touches from the best (or better) in our sport. Unlike EPLC, I do think words can describe what you are doing to get your hold to be better than the hold of most. I may not be able to benefit from your words, but then again, I might. And, I fully understand why some are reluctant to "cast their pearls before swine." We do act like pigs on occasion.


I'll pm you some of what I've found that's helped me the most.


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## pwyrick

RCR_III said:


> I'll pm you some of what I've found that's helped me the most.


Thanks. I look forward to your pm.


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## EPLC

pwyrick said:


> Any reasonably capable athlete can shoot a bow well with some instruction and practice. They can shoot very well with good instruction and more practice. And, they can do this in a surprisingly short period of time. Getting to the top for a few just happens with hard work. For most who get to the top, I'd say they have become phenomenal technicians of the game. And, they add their own unique touches to the technical. For me as a reasonable (better than most) athlete who is a good technician, I'd like to hear descriptions of the unique touches from the best (or better) in our sport. Unlike EPLC, I do think words can describe what you are doing to get your hold to be better than the hold of most. I may not be able to benefit from your words, but then again, I might. And, I fully understand why some are reluctant to "cast their pearls before swine." We do act like pigs on occasion.


If this is describable, why hasn't anyone done it?


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## RCR_III

EPLC said:


> If this is describable, why hasn't anyone done it?


Have you seen the responses in this sub forum ;-) I'll pm you what I wrote to pwyrick.


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## subconsciously

Talent is not a genetic trait. Michael Jordon was cut form his sophomore basketball team.

As a coaches would should not search out talent, but learn to construct it.

Many many many, are not willing to get the deep practice it takes to stretch ourselves beyond our comfort zone. The longer you stay in your comfort zone the more uncomfortable with yourself you will get.

The best ting about archery is you don't have to be the smartest, the strongest or the fastest. You have to be dedicated.


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## stoz

I think that its not an easy thing to say do this and this and you'll have an awesome hold. My hold has improved as well as my scores this season but ive been shooting indoor since October. Ive made many small changes that have slowly made an improvement. Its finding the little feeings that add up to the big improvement. I started this season by identifying what things I need to work on, some of these are face contact, kepping same grip thru draw and anchor, equal pressure on all fingers on release, setting up with consistant thumb pressure on trigger ,identifying tension in my arms, etc. I work on these one at a time until they are part of my new shot. Too many people change something and think they are"fixed". Its small changes over time that add up to better scores.


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## stoz

subconsciously said:


> Talent is not a genetic trait. Michael Jordon was cut form his sophomore basketball team.
> 
> As a coaches would should not search out talent, but learn to construct it.
> 
> Many many many, are not willing to get the deep practice it takes to stretch ourselves beyond our comfort zone. The longer you stay in your comfort zone the more uncomfortable with yourself you will get.
> 
> The best ting about archery is you don't have to be the smartest, the strongest or the fastest. You have to be dedicated.


Well said, I think this is what seperates most pros from us is the unending desire to never stop figuring out this sport and willingness to spend countless hours practicing until they "figure" things out.


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## SonnyThomas

subconsciously said:


> Talent is not a genetic trait. Michael Jordon was cut form his sophomore basketball team.
> 
> As a coaches would should not search out talent, but learn to construct it.
> 
> Many many many, are not willing to get the deep practice it takes to stretch ourselves beyond our comfort zone. The longer you stay in your comfort zone the more uncomfortable with yourself you will get.
> 
> The best ting about archery is you don't have to be the smartest, the strongest or the fastest. You have to be dedicated.


Genetic the correct word? Genes being something that is passed on....

The same can be said of Bill Russell, perhaps the only basketball player that could go one-on-one with Wilt Chamberlin. Russell was said awkward, ungainly so, in his youth.

Being dedicated can only take you so far. Look at all the Pros that don't make it to the top 10 or even top 20. ASA Rookie of the Year won out his first year of being Semi Pro. He hasn't broke into the top 20 but maybe a handful of times in the past 3 or 4 years now. Jeff Hopkins was near unbeatable for some 6 years, winning 7 SOYs. Levi Morgan took over and hasn't relinquished SOY for consecutive 9 years. Levi's own words from A.N.N.; "I don't practice as much as people think I do."


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## cbrunson

subconsciously said:


> Talent is not a genetic trait. Michael Jordon was cut form his sophomore basketball team.
> 
> As a coaches would should not search out talent, but learn to construct it.
> 
> Many many many, are not willing to get the deep practice it takes to stretch ourselves beyond our comfort zone. The longer you stay in your comfort zone the more uncomfortable with yourself you will get.
> 
> The best ting about archery is you don't have to be the smartest, the strongest or the fastest. You have to be dedicated.


Could not be stated any better. ^^^^



stoz said:


> I think that its not an easy thing to say do this and this and you'll have an awesome hold. My hold has improved as well as my scores this season but ive been shooting indoor since October. Ive made many small changes that have slowly made an improvement. Its finding the little feeings that add up to the big improvement. I started this season by identifying what things I need to work on, some of these are face contact, kepping same grip thru draw and anchor, equal pressure on all fingers on release, setting up with consistant thumb pressure on trigger ,identifying tension in my arms, etc. I work on these one at a time until they are part of my new shot. Too many people change something and think they are"fixed". Its small changes over time that add up to better scores.


This is true, and one of a few reasons I won't be getting overly detailed with information here anymore. The problem isn't necessarily in the communication as much as it is in the fact that there are several limiting, or as I prefer- supporting factors involved in the process. A little change in grip pressure, an unnoticed twist or inward pull with the release, a nearly unnoticeable flinch, these are just a few things that can make a near perfect hold produce a missed shot. 

As mentioned earlier, getting a great hold and then not being able to transfer to the release without screwing it up, is not an issue. It is the natural progression. Of course it will be difficult to hold it there while you shift your focus to the release. It is NOT easy. If you are not willing to put in the hard work to get there, and decide to scrap it and look for an easier fix, I guarantee you will never find it. It is your attitude that keeps you from being successful. While there are other ways to skin a cat, I am 100% certain that every one of them requires a tremendous amount of hard work and dedication. Pick one and kick its ass, or pack your things and go home.


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## Lazarus

Although not archery related I believe it applies, I believe I'll leave it right here; 

http://www.theplayerstribune.com/russell-wilson-peyton-manning-superbowl/


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## erdman41

SonnyThomas said:


> Being dedicated can only take you so far


If that's how you think that's what will happen.


----------



## subconsciously

cbrunson said:


> This is true, and one of a few reasons I won't be getting overly detailed with information here anymore. The problem isn't necessarily in the communication as much as it is in the fact that there are several limiting, or as I prefer- supporting factors involved in the process. A little change in grip pressure, an unnoticed twist or inward pull with the release, a nearly unnoticeable flinch, these are just a few things that can make a near perfect hold produce a missed shot.


I agree completely. *Archery is hands on*. 5 of my (being myself and a couple of the other JOAD coaches) current students are in first place in the Texas SYWAT (Shoot Your Way Across Texas). These kids (and adults) have put in the time required and the dedication. None of them could not reach this point by reading through AT.

.02


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## LMacD

erdman41 said:


> If that's how you think that's what will happen.


This ^ x 100,000


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## SonnyThomas

erdman41 said:


> If that's how you think that's what will happen.


Don't take things out of context. I gave examples. Ability has to be there, eye sight, motor skills. Can you improve? Yes.

For myself, I didn't have anyone to really show me one thing. I shot recurve from age 11 to age 15. 32 years later I picked up my first compound bow, late December of 1998. Never knew 3D existed until late 1999, shooting only 2 3Ds. Still had little instructions and from one that I surpassed. By mid 2000 I was running with the Big Dogs at club 3Ds. I don't know how other than I just shot well. I've done well ever since in both club and IAA and ASA state sanctioned events and not really had a true coaching session. Tid bit sessions I call them and no shooting involved. 
Call it luck if you want. I'll take it....


----------



## EPLC

I think what Sonny is saying is true but some are taking it to extremes. No one is saying that hard work and dedication combined with proper training won't produce results. That said; we all are not going to be Jesse either. There's no one that has been more dedicated than I have to get to my best... I even overcame a physical issue by switching from RH to LH and I can't chew gum left handed. Some just have more to work with than others... These were from 2009...


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## Lazarus

EPLC, you have my utmost respect, as does Sonny. I would imagine you two are the epitome of hard work. Obviously physical abilities come into play as we age. But they don't limit us from using the gifts to the best of our ability. 

On the other hand. 

For those who really believe excelling in Archery is about "natural skills" I leave you with two words; Matt Stutzman


----------



## subconsciously

Lazarus said:


> EPLC, you have my utmost respect, as does Sonny. I would imagine you two are the epitome of hard work. Obviously physical abilities come into play as we age. But they don't limit us from using the gifts to the best of our ability.
> 
> On the other hand.
> 
> For those who really believe excelling in Archery is about "natural skills" I leave you with two words; Matt Stutzman


I stand corrected - Archery is hands and feet on.


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## dmacey

Lazarus said:


> EPLC, you have my utmost respect, as does Sonny. I would imagine you two are the epitome of hard work. Obviously physical abilities come into play as we age. But they don't limit us from using the gifts to the best of our ability.
> 
> On the other hand.
> 
> For those who really believe excelling in Archery is about "natural skills" I leave you with two words; Matt Stutzman


Now hang on a sec here fellers... . Just because someone has a disability or physical challenge doesn't mean they don't also have natural talents, even exceptional ones. I see no difficulty at all with thinking Matt Stutzman is a highly gifted athlete. And I would also be quite comfortable with the notion that his success as an archer is just as much a blend of innate physical ability and hard work as EPLC's success, or any other athlete for that matter. 

So I tend to agree with Sonny and EPLC. Some like myself have a definite cap on how far we can actually go in the end no matter how much work we put into an activity. I've gotten to nearly an elite level on another skill, but nearly elite was as far as I was really able to go. Age and injury began to set in before I got there and that was pretty much the end of my progress there. 

And I humbly believe that that will be true of me with archery as well. I'll always be outdone by someone else no matter how much work I put into my shooting, and that, I believe, will be a function of just pure physical ability. In a way, that makes it ok - these days I worry more about how much better I'm shooting than _I_ used to shoot than how much better I may shoot than someone else.

DM


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## erdman41

Everyone thinks they work hard and nobody works harder. Charles Barkley thought that until he was teammates with Jordan on the dream team.


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## ILOVE3D

Please don't handicap me and tell me age has everything to do with why I can't shoot well. Yes, I don't have the stamina, muscle tone or even the vision i have had in the past but I still strive to shoot the best I can and will always look for hints and tips to help me shoot well. I have noticed that as I am aging I have to change things so my body can do the things my mind thinks it can. I'm also getting smarter as i age and not trying to compete indoors on say 5 spot or a Vegas competition shooting my 70 lb hunting bow. I believe that the getting smarter aspect will help us shoot better scores as long as we work hard at getting things correct like dl, stabilizer setup, arrows tuned to bow, nock tuned and the list can go on depending on what venue one wants to compete at be it 20 yards indoors, out to 50 on a 3d course or even the "senior Olympics" 900 rounds we shoot at 60, 50 and 40 yds and of course how anal one is. Watch the "seniors" in the Vegas shoot this year, nothing wrong with their accuracy. I know that I will never stand toe to toe in competition with say Jesse, Reo, Levi, Sergio and the list goes on but I will continue to strive to shoot the best my body and mind can do. So please, allow me to continue to pick your brains and although I may or may not use exactly what you say or do but I am shooting better and more consistently than I have in my younger years.


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## montigre

Actually, when asked about the likely success of an athlete who has natural talent versus another who just worked their way to the top, most of the coaches and sports experts at the OTC felt that the term natural talent was a misnomer. 

They agreed that some athletes seem to pick things up more quickly than others, but in the end, it was the hard work and focused dedication that determined whether or not an athlete would be a success.


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## EPLC

montigre said:


> Actually, when asked about the likely success of an athlete who has natural talent versus another who just worked their way to the top, most of the coaches and sports experts at the OTC felt that the term natural talent was a misnomer.
> 
> They agreed that some athletes seem to pick things up more quickly than others, but in the end, it was the hard work and focused dedication that determined whether or not an athlete would be a success.


Why was there only 1 Michael Jorden?


----------



## Rick!

Paul, you like asking these challenge questions and you already had an answer in mind before typing it out. That’s fine, you believe you have found evidence to support your side of the hold question and that’s ok too. 

But, here’s my recipe, take it FWIW. 

Executive Summary: Let go of tension, soft hands, breathe, relax, execute, don't accept mediocrity. 

First, you’ve read all of Dudley’s and GRIV’s, Bernie’s, Tom’s and Larry’s stuff and there are several golden nuggets to remember and apply at the right time.

Second, I have the ability to program my subconscious - I tell it things I want to happen, that I am in control of, and in due time the goal is reached. So, I affirmed to myself that I was going to create a good hold and I achieved it. 

Third, there have been a few nuggets on this forum that have improved my hold over the last year. Cbrunson’s post that you have reposted several times only reminded me of what I had gapped out on temporarily. (Basically, a “I could’ve had a V8,” moment.)

Fourth, I’m not naturally talented – I’m an over the top Type A Engineer and work exceptionally hard to achieve what Type B’s can do with seemingly little effort.

Fifth, I hit the range twice a day during the week and at least two hours on the weekend. 

Sixth, I spent over 12 weeks working from 3 yards to 20 yards overcoming target panic. I learned a lot about hold during those weeks.

Prereqs: Bow is tuned, DL is proper but not anally exact, HW is where it needs to be for my style.
I shoot an aggressive shot and I like bow weight and high holding weight and moderately heavy stab weight. 

A.	The back of my bow hand has to be dead – zero tension, before I raise the bow. A pro here is very consistent in mentioning soft hands – he’s right, but I figured this out before reading it here. (RCR has a video on hold and bow hand tension)

B.	I fit my hand into the handle and raise the bow moving both arms in unison, pushing with my bow arm and pulling with my release hand/arm. This was taught to me in Coaches Corner, I believe it was Sub or Da White Shoe that suggested this. Posture is intentionally erect, with hips a teeny bit forward, along with my head very upright. I use a low wrist and like 2-3 degrees of buildup on the grip.

C.	One deep inhale with a very firm bow arm, not bent, and I draw on target with the back of my draw hand as relaxed as I let it be. (Wise) At FDP or anchor, my release arm has fallen into place, like a chain binder. (Slicer) I don’t let my head move forward to the string.

D.	After I fit my hand in place, (Alstair) I exhale about 50-60% to promote relaxation, shoulders dropping into place and makes it easy to complete my transfer. (GRIV, Strong, LMacD, et al.) For me, it is imperative to have perfect front/rear balance and the draw side scapula tucked into position. Recently, this has created the feeling of being “wedged in.” 

E.	So, I’m on target and on a normal day the center of my ring does not leave a 5 spot X – for anywhere from 2-8 seconds, sometimes longer. That means the center could move from one side of the X to the other. On wiggly days, bars are angled, an ounce is added or removed or timing is changed by half twists until it’s fixed. I don’t accept a poor hold. On exceptional days, the ring does not move – it waits for me to execute. For me, it is hard to start here as my mind needs to see a little movement to trigger execution. 

F.	I try to keep calm to let things settle if that’s what kind of day it is, and let out more air to relax further if needed. I can feel my bow arm muscles and my draw arm muscles at this point and if I’m set up wrong or my head has leaned forward or I feel too much tension, all I get is a pretty sight picture that I can’t execute on. Head up, settled in, execute. If not, reset.

G.	The start of execution/expansion or whatever it’s called, pressure is added to both front and back and the ring will get very slow or stop. (Sonny already stated this) I execute the shot, hopefully without yanking or pushing it a shaft or two off line. Am I perfect, not even close. I’m three months into a new shot break process as pure BT ain’t where it’s at. The cool thing is that if my thumb ends up on my shoulder, I don’t even have to look where the arrow landed. 

H.	Does this happen every time I draw back? Nope. I have to remind myself of my process nearly every step. I find that a front/rear balance with a shot break process that complements that balance is my key to counting Xs. Easy to say, really hard to repeat, and repeat, and repeat. 

I.	If none of this works for you, close one eye. Your “float” will cut in half immediately.


The bottom line for me is that “hold” is only part of the process. I am finding this game is way more mental the higher you try to get. If you don’t have the confidence to know you will put it down the middle, well, good luck.

Signed, 
Rick Kerner


----------



## SonnyThomas

Lazarus said:


> EPLC, you have my utmost respect, as does Sonny. I would imagine you two are the epitome of hard work. Obviously physical abilities come into play as we age. But they don't limit us from using the gifts to the best of our ability.
> 
> On the other hand.
> 
> For those who really believe excelling in Archery is about "natural skills" I leave you with two words; Matt Stutzman


 It's called proper alignment. Left foot, right handed bow. Ambidextrous?  

Matt is one that I'd point out to those who say they can't shoot a bow.

Hard work. Walter Payton running up a hill with a log across his shoulders. Pistol Pete dribbling outside a car door going down the street. Stan the Man wearing wrist and ankle weights to dinner.
Abilities? Babe Ruth was a good pitcher, but moved to the outfield because of his hitting ability. Babe Ruth and Mickey Mantle with drinking binges and still were Kings. Roger Marris near a physical and mental wreck and still hit home runs. 
Guys, we can rattle forever.


----------



## Rick!

*The Solution *


----------



## cbrunson

Rick! said:


>


Saved and going to be pinned up at the indoor range. 

Love it!!!


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## LMacD

This ^ is going in my teaching studio, home studio and home range. Awesome!


----------



## Mahly

On the metal side of things, Saying things like I'll never be as good as <insert famous pro here> or "I just don't have the natural talent" May very well be true, but acknowledging those things hurts in 2 ways.
1) You've lost before you even start. And we can start improving even after 30+ years of practice.
2) You've let yourself off the hook. If this is the best I'll ever be, there's no need to train any harder or try anything different.

I KNOW EPLC has put in lots of time/effort, and not always achieved the desired results. MAYBE he IS as good as he can be.... but then again, maybe he isn't. Shutting down due to thinking it's genetic or some other physical thing you can't control will only prevent you from finding out how much better you can be. "I'm as good as I'll ever be" is a self fulfilling prophecy.

EPLC, I hope you haven't taken things posted here negatively. I for one am betting you CAN get better, and CAN hold steady. Maybe you can't be Reo or Jesse.... but then again, MAYBE you can!


----------



## montigre

There is another side to this mental issue that is equally valid, especially if recovering from a serious injury. The level of frustration and stress one experiences when making a comeback to competitive form from a severe injury is MASSIVE and at some point, in an effort to relieve yourself of this overwhelming weight you carry all of the time, some evaluation of your current condition and status away from what was once your normal or what you once hoped to achieve is necessary.

I'm not saying someone should throw in the towel and say their goals are an impossibility, but to step back every now and again from the battle in order to remove some of the pressure so you don't end up burning out from the shear magnitude of the task placed before you. You must break it down into managable pieces and take smaller steps, focusing on more short-term goals, along the recovery path until the mind and body begin to work in sync again and you can start pushing a little harder. 

Now I say I will never be a high x-count shooter which allows room for me to become a decent field shooter again and when that happens I can broaden the scope to slowly focusing on improving the score to where I am competitive again, then start slowly focusing on x count until that area is also on a competitive level, and finally I can start speculating about competition standings.... 

Sometimes you have to jolt the mind and give it a little thrashing to break through a perceived barrier and that can't always be done by humming KumBaYa and visualizing unicorns farting rainbows...


----------



## hulandshark

when i shoot my shot i do the what you said i just hold it in the middle and shoot my shot however not very many people i coach can do that. i believe it all comes down to personal preferances i have a kid in my joad program that like a lot of people ive talked to at vegas and various shoots like to hold low and as my joad kid likes to call it "make a snowman. a lot of people like to see what they are aiming at its not uncommon not to accually hold your dot or pin in the middle.


----------



## EPLC

Mahly said:


> On the metal side of things, Saying things like I'll never be as good as <insert famous pro here> or "I just don't have the natural talent" May very well be true, but acknowledging those things hurts in 2 ways.
> 1) You've lost before you even start. And we can start improving even after 30+ years of practice.
> 2) You've let yourself off the hook. If this is the best I'll ever be, there's no need to train any harder or try anything different.
> 
> I KNOW EPLC has put in lots of time/effort, and not always achieved the desired results. MAYBE he IS as good as he can be.... but then again, maybe he isn't. Shutting down due to thinking it's genetic or some other physical thing you can't control will only prevent you from finding out how much better you can be. "I'm as good as I'll ever be" is a self fulfilling prophecy.
> 
> EPLC, I hope you haven't taken things posted here negatively. I for one am betting you CAN get better, and CAN hold steady. Maybe you can't be Reo or Jesse.... but then again, MAYBE you can!


No offense taken. The point was that "Hold" is a difficult thing to put into words. Sure there are examples of steps people have taken to improve this ability, but this still requires physical ability. As Laz put it, "The point of my response is this; I have no earthly idea precisely what it was that got me to that point of a decent hold. If I were to be forced to give a definitive answer I would probably say it was a combination of about 10 things, then shooting enough to be able to meld those ten things together to a point that works for me. But again, to be able to define it with words, I don't believe it's possible."

For those that actually think I support the notion that it's all about natural talent, you are wrong. What I have said is natural talent is a huge advantage and can be brought to a higher level of achievement with much less effort than someone without the natural ability. Now, take that person with a natural ability and build on it with a lot of hard work and effort you will really have something. Match that time and effort among a group of 1000 archers and you will see varying skill level development with that same effort. I had a friend once say, "Yes, all men are created equal, just some are created more equal than others."


----------



## EPLC

montigre said:


> There is another side to this mental issue that is equally valid, especially if recovering from a serious injury. The level of frustration and stress one experiences when making a comeback to competitive form from a severe injury is MASSIVE and at some point, in an effort to relieve yourself of this overwhelming weight you carry all of the time, some evaluation of your current condition and status away from what was once your normal or what you once hoped to achieve is necessary.
> 
> I'm not saying someone should throw in the towel and say their goals are an impossibility, but to step back every now and again from the battle in order to remove some of the pressure so you don't end up burning out from the shear magnitude of the task placed before you. You must break it down into managable pieces and take smaller steps, focusing on more short-term goals, along the recovery path until the mind and body begin to work in sync again and you can start pushing a little harder.
> 
> Now I say I will never be a high x-count shooter which allows room for me to become a decent field shooter again and when that happens I can broaden the scope to slowly focusing on improving the score to where I am competitive again, then start slowly focusing on x count until that area is also on a competitive level, and finally I can start speculating about competition standings....
> 
> Sometimes you have to jolt the mind and give it a little thrashing to break through a perceived barrier and that can't always be done by humming KumBaYa and visualizing unicorns farting rainbows...


If you are saying, "one needs to accept where you are before you can build on it", I totally agree. I keep records... actual averages. I see folks claiming averages reflecting their highest scores all the time. They are just fooling themselves.


----------



## montigre

EPLC, yes I am and keeping records is a very good thing to be doing now--keeps things real and allows you to very easily see the little improvements you're making in the face of the larger picture which can be rather daunting.


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## SonnyThomas

LMacD said:


> This ^ is going in my teaching studio, home studio and home range. Awesome!


Saved it also....


----------



## Lazarus

:focus: :loco:

The "problem" is; too many archers focus on the "problem" rather than the solution. 

There's not as much resistance to problems as there are solutions. In a nutshell I believe that's why many people who _have_ solutions don't share them here. It's easier for a lot of people to just believe in this hideous notion of "float" than to believe they can actually hold in the middle. Proof will be in the fact that people actually argue against that fact. :cheers:


----------



## chevman

RCR_III said:


> Have you seen the responses in this sub forum ;-) I'll pm you what I wrote to pwyrick.


I will take some of that Robert....if you dont mind.


----------



## RCR_III

chevman said:


> I will take some of that Robert....if you dont mind.


Not at all. I'll send them your way.


----------



## Shogun1

The OP asked for a deconstruction of a larger issue. Most would have asked
if we could communicate how to shoot better or to shoot all Xs. In doing
so, the OP recognizes that both a complex process and a future outcome
results from a series of processes all of which contribute to the final
outcome.

Accordingly, what follows address only the macro level of the stated
problem. 
"Please specifically describe how do you hold the pin in the middle? I'll
bet most can't put it into words that the group 2 folks can grasp or
understand or put into practice."

Take the Charley Brown approach to archery. For those who don't remember,
Linus aims and shoots at the center (and misses). Charlie Brown shoots at a
blank bale and then paints the bullseye around the arrow.

Applied to the OP's challenge -- understand that Words mean something!
Abandon the idea that you "hold" in the middle. "Holding" has the
connotation of forcing something against its natural tendencies. Instead,
allow the pin to settle, then move the settled point so that it coincides
with the middle of the target. (Ok -- not quite the Charlie Brown approach!)

Allowing the pin to settle requires a holistic approach including making a
decision to commit to the effort. The effort includes accepting that the pin
can sit still in space. It includes accepting that achieving that goal may
require mental, equipment, physical adjustments. It requires adopting a
tension-free form that supports the bow in a consistent position. Doing so
may require equipment changes to reduce draw weight or to adjust draw
length. The former challenges the archer to trade what he CAN do for a MORE
APPROPRIATE draw weight that will help him execute the entire draw cycle all
the way to anchor without creating unnecessary tension that he can't release
while at anchor. The latter challenges him to accept that perhaps the best
setting for him is NOT a bow in perfect specs according to the manufacturer.
He might just happen to require a DL perfectly aligned with a bow in specs
-- but chances are equally as high that the proper draw length for him is in
between cam sizes or modules.

Physical adjustments could include a whole host of issues -- but that
solving them all contribute to a single goal -- supporting the bow using
body structures -- relaxed muscles with skeletal structures carrying the
load to the max extent possible. Again, applied to the OP's challenge,
learn to unit aim rather than inducing tension to contort the body to
arrange the natural point of aim on the target's center.

Getting the pin to sit still also takes a discerning mental approach. It
requires self awareness -- is the archer consistently setting up the shot
the same way? Once the archer starts to relax, he can start to build that
self awareness. In turn, that allows him to make a finite change and
observe the effect of that change on the pin's tendency to sit still. For example, what effect does a change in chest pressure have on the pin? This,
in turn, requires the self discipline to take notes and to be willing to
admit that the job is not quite done.

Accept that issues like adrenalin rush or anxiety can keep the pin from
sitting still. Therefore, the archer needs to build coping mechanisms to
lessen their effects.

Finally, it means accepting that just because the archer successfully gets
the pin to sit still doesn't mean that all the arrows go into a single hole
-- sight picture alignment, execution errors, or continuing to execute a
shot when the pin settled off the target center.


----------



## Lazarus

That was a very interesting write up Shogun1. Something I caught right away, it was written under the premise that the archer is trying to "hold" a pin on the target. 

Some of us (I will acknowledge that not everyone subscribes to this technique) have discovered, (for us) that one of the keys to a steady sight picture is the fact that there is no pin to obstruct the view of the target. To weave this concept into your Charley Brown theory; the target is always sitting still, why make it appear that it's moving by trying to hold a pin on a stationary object? Also, why increase anxiety by trying to hide what you are trying to hit (a stationary object) behind a (moving) object? 

Just food for thought. And again, not for everyone. :cheers:


----------



## dmacey

Lazarus said:


> why make it appear that it's moving by trying to hold a pin on a stationary object?


Not quite sure what this means, could you clarify? Are you referring to focusing on the target vs. the pin?



> Also, why increase anxiety by trying to hide what you are trying to hit (a stationary object) behind a (moving) object?


Good point, IMO. I use a recurve sight right that I put onto the gold and that can cause me some anxiety trying to see "behind" it in some sense. I've experimented with the figure 8 method of aiming which does help with that, but it hasn't yet become that troublesome to require me to completely change that technique...

DM


----------



## cbrunson

Shogun1 said:


> Getting the pin to sit still also takes a discerning mental approach. It
> requires self awareness -- is the archer consistently setting up the shot
> the same way? Once the archer starts to relax, he can start to build that
> self awareness. In turn, that allows him to make a finite change and
> observe the effect of that change on the pin's tendency to sit still. For example, what effect does a change in chest pressure have on the pin? This,
> in turn, requires the self discipline to take notes and to be willing to
> admit that the job is not quite done.


This is probably the best description I've seen written of what you need to be able to do to hold it in the middle.

There is no "relax this muscle, pull with that one", instruction that will work. "Self awareness", is the best way to put it. Very good!!


The next step is confidence building. Once you see it, strive to repeat it. The determination to get it there every time will make you better even when it isn't perfect.


----------



## SonnyThomas

Shogun1 said:


> The OP asked for a deconstruction of a larger issue. Most would have asked
> if we could communicate how to shoot better or to shoot all Xs. In doing
> so, the OP recognizes that both a complex process and a future outcome
> results from a series of processes all of which contribute to the final
> outcome.
> /
> /
> /
> /
> /
> Finally, it means accepting that just because the archer successfully gets
> the pin to sit still doesn't mean that all the arrows go into a single hole
> -- sight picture alignment, execution errors, or continuing to execute a
> shot when the pin settled off the target center.


What I like about long reads? Nothing. I've got articles, manuals and books for that.

Hold or trying to get to Hold. If you start out searching for the target, point of wanted impact, you're burning energy. With a injury or physical issues time is really burning energy. So why not aim on target? 
Aim on target. Is it better to being on target, come down to on target or go up to get on target? Going up is going against tension and using time and burning energy....Freezing below target, is it target panic or your body locking up from trying to force the pin to on target?

Getting on target or Holding on target difficult? Is it your bow or is it you? Did you set up your bow so you felt comfortable with form and/or anchoring? Can you pull the peep out and hit reasonable close from 20 yards? I probably piddle with my peep more than most (left handed/left eye dominant shooting right handed). Seems to reason if you are not making yourself "go to the bow" there's no force, no pulling your body out of shape. Yes, we forget that. The bow comes to you, not you to the bow (Terry Wunderle).

I found this just recently. Don't by-pass the first paragraph. Okay, some of us need a reference point to get started...and less wayward arrows.


----------



## EPLC

Shogun1 said:


> The OP asked for a deconstruction of a larger issue. Most would have asked
> if we could communicate how to shoot better or to shoot all Xs. In doing
> so, the OP recognizes that both a complex process and a future outcome
> results from a series of processes all of which contribute to the final
> outcome.
> 
> Accordingly, what follows address only the macro level of the stated
> problem.
> "Please specifically describe how do you hold the pin in the middle? I'll
> bet most can't put it into words that the group 2 folks can grasp or
> understand or put into practice."
> 
> Take the Charley Brown approach to archery. For those who don't remember,
> Linus aims and shoots at the center (and misses). Charlie Brown shoots at a
> blank bale and then paints the bullseye around the arrow.
> 
> Applied to the OP's challenge -- understand that Words mean something!
> Abandon the idea that you "hold" in the middle. "Holding" has the
> connotation of forcing something against its natural tendencies. Instead,
> allow the pin to settle, then move the settled point so that it coincides
> with the middle of the target. (Ok -- not quite the Charlie Brown approach!)
> 
> Allowing the pin to settle requires a holistic approach including making a
> decision to commit to the effort. The effort includes accepting that the pin
> can sit still in space. It includes accepting that achieving that goal may
> require mental, equipment, physical adjustments. It requires adopting a
> tension-free form that supports the bow in a consistent position. Doing so
> may require equipment changes to reduce draw weight or to adjust draw
> length. The former challenges the archer to trade what he CAN do for a MORE
> APPROPRIATE draw weight that will help him execute the entire draw cycle all
> the way to anchor without creating unnecessary tension that he can't release
> while at anchor. The latter challenges him to accept that perhaps the best
> setting for him is NOT a bow in perfect specs according to the manufacturer.
> He might just happen to require a DL perfectly aligned with a bow in specs
> -- but chances are equally as high that the proper draw length for him is in
> between cam sizes or modules.
> 
> Physical adjustments could include a whole host of issues -- but that
> solving them all contribute to a single goal -- supporting the bow using
> body structures -- relaxed muscles with skeletal structures carrying the
> load to the max extent possible. Again, applied to the OP's challenge,
> learn to unit aim rather than inducing tension to contort the body to
> arrange the natural point of aim on the target's center.
> 
> Getting the pin to sit still also takes a discerning mental approach. It
> requires self awareness -- is the archer consistently setting up the shot
> the same way? Once the archer starts to relax, he can start to build that
> self awareness. In turn, that allows him to make a finite change and
> observe the effect of that change on the pin's tendency to sit still. For example, what effect does a change in chest pressure have on the pin? This,
> in turn, requires the self discipline to take notes and to be willing to
> admit that the job is not quite done.
> 
> Accept that issues like adrenalin rush or anxiety can keep the pin from
> sitting still. Therefore, the archer needs to build coping mechanisms to
> lessen their effects.
> 
> Finally, it means accepting that just because the archer successfully gets
> the pin to sit still doesn't mean that all the arrows go into a single hole
> -- sight picture alignment, execution errors, or continuing to execute a
> shot when the pin settled off the target center.


This is probably the best post I've read on this forum in quite some time, probably since "The cbrunson method", thanks! Tension is my problem and as I examine it there seems to be a connection to mass weight, or at least bow balance.


----------



## Shogun1

There is a risk of repeating parts of another post, but "words are the means to an end -- communication, and words convey meanings.

"But the major problem hindering communication is that the message the speaker was sending is often not the message the listener received."

And repeating from earlier in his thread:
"Physical adjustments could include a whole host of issues -- but that solving them all contribute to a single goal -- supporting the bow using body structures -- relaxed muscles with skeletal structures carrying the load to the max extent possible. Again, applied to the OP's challenge, learn to unit aim rather than inducing tension to contort the body to arrange the natural point of aim on the target's center."

The Reader's Digest version, relax, recruit no muscle, use bone-on-bone form, is much shorter -- but describes actions to take rather than how to do them.

The OP's original challenge was about how to explain the process of "holding" on target, not what to do.

The explanation was exactly that; however, it used words rich with meanings. What does "unit aiming" mean? From Axford's Archery Anatomy, "In coming to full draw, the whole body should aim naturally in the direction of the target, in such a way that if the draw were executed and completed with the eyes closed, upon opening the eyes to confirm the aim, it would only be necessary to adjust the angle of trajectory vertically, with little or no adjustment of direction laterally." "Unit aiming" is the method of adjusting the vertical without recruiting the muscles of the upper body.

Come down on the target from just slightly above. Why? A low draw forces the bow side shoulder high -- which then requires recruiting muscles to pull it back down into a stable position. A "sky draw" rotates the bow side shoulder girdle out of position during the draw which again requires recruiting muscles to pull it back into position. Drawing from slightly above allows the bow side shoulder girdle to relax into a stable position.

Thus applied to the OP's challenge -- first achieve a stable pin -- without a target and with the bow side arm level. Then introduce the target. Set the stance so that the draw aligns the pin with the X in azimuth. On level ground with the target at competition height, the pin should be on target in elevation. If not, then adjust by tilting the whole torso -- not by lifting or lowering just the bow arm.

What is the relationship between my form and my bow setup? It has been an iterative process -- as my form evolved I continued to adjust my bow set up to match my form. Fortunately, I have a great working relationship with my local pro shop, Archery Unlimited. Together, we have changed by as little as a single twist in the string or cable as we zeroed in on setting the bow's draw length to match my draw length required.

The concepts above explain what and why to do things rather than how to do them.


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## nestly

Lazarus said:


> It's easier for a lot of people to just believe in this hideous notion of "float" than to believe they can actually hold in the middle. Proof will be in the fact that people actually argue against that fact. :cheers:


I believe the ability to hold in the middle is being greatly overstated. Float, wobble, movement, or whatever it's called is real, and it has to be managed just like every other aspect of shooting sports. Watch video of any professional archer where there the camera and background is stationary and the amount of "wobble" in their body and bow is very apparent before and during shot execution. Here's and extreme example from a month ago where John Dudley uses multiple cameras to record a 300 Vegas round. Watch the camera that's focused on the archer/bow and pay attention to how much he's moving during the shot. It's hard to believe he'd keeping them all in the yellow, much less shooting what looks to be a 300 / 30X. 






I have similar feeling about "natural ability" and genetics. Not everyone can be a world champion regardless of how much time and effort they dedicate to try to make it happen. That's not to say anyone should give up their dreams, but sometimes it has to be "enough" to know you're giving it your best effort, even if you don't reach the ultimate goal.


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## Lazarus

nestly, :thumbs_up

Keep preaching it. It's all good. I'm not going to argue it. I'll just continue to send a message of what's possible, not what's "impossible." 

Just another little nugget, and I had it confirmed yet again yesterday when setting up a whole new bow/setup. A steady hold has more to do with what's going on in your release hand and the four inches between it and your brain than any other single factor, draw length, hold weight, stabilizer length, angle, weight ratio. That's not a theory, it's just the way it works for me. Take it for what it's worth. Your experience may vary.


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## cbrunson

nestly said:


> I believe the ability to hold in the middle is being greatly overstated. Float, wobble, movement, or whatever it's called is real, and it has to be managed just like every other aspect of shooting sports. Watch video of any professional archer where there the camera and background is stationary and the amount of "wobble" in their body and bow is very apparent before and during shot execution. Here's and extreme example from a month ago where John Dudley uses multiple cameras to record a 300 Vegas round. Watch the camera that's focused on the archer/bow and pay attention to how much he's moving during the shot. It's hard to believe he'd keeping them all in the yellow, much less shooting what looks to be a 300 / 30X.
> 
> I have similar feeling about "natural ability" and genetics. Not everyone can be a world champion regardless of how much time and effort they dedicate to try to make it happen. That's not to say anyone should give up their dreams, but sometimes it has to be "enough" to know you're giving it your best effort, even if you don't reach the ultimate goal.


Acceptance of limitation, is your first step towards defeat.

Wallow in it, spread it, cheer for the losers, and hand out trophies for participation to your hearts desire. For those that want to be competitive with the best of the best...... keep working at making that movement smaller.


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## nestly

I'm not saying it's not possible to make your aim better, but the ability to hold "steady" is relative, and also greatly exaggerated by many. 

Prove what you're preaching... you shoot 300's on a regular basis, so tape a laser pointer to your sight and show us how well you can "hold" while shooting a 300 round.


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## Lazarus

nestly said:


> I'm not saying it's not possible to make your aim better, but the ability to hold "steady" is relative, and also greatly exaggerated by many.
> 
> Prove what you're preaching... you shoot 300's on a regular basis, so tape a laser pointer to your sight and show us how well you can "hold" while shooting a 300 round.


I don't need to put a laser on the bow. That's what the arrow is for. :thumbs_up


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## nestly

Lazarus said:


> I don't need to put a laser on the bow. That's what the arrow is for. :thumbs_up


If I'm not mistaken, this topic is about "holding" not "scoring", and no, the two are not synonymous.

For anyone on the fence about whether you can only score as well as you can hold, go to youtube and watch any Pro final where there are close-ups of the pros executing their shots. They ALL "float" and it's not necessarily the guy that "floats" the least that wins.


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## Lazarus

nestly said:


> I believe the ability to hold in the middle is being greatly overstated.


Really? Actually I thought it was a pretty recent shift in the paradigm. In fact I believe the idea of "hold" at all is pretty counter to the archery culture. Why? Because the archery culture has been sold the lie of "let it float and shoot the shot" for so long. Ok, it's not a lie, it's a philosophy that allows one to shoot their way to mediocrity. 

I have a challenge for you. Please explain to us;

Using an unanticipated release, how do you make an arrow go where it's not pointed?


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## cbrunson

nestly said:


> I'm not saying it's not possible to make your aim better, but the ability to hold "steady" is relative, and also greatly exaggerated by many.
> 
> Prove what you're preaching... you shoot 300's on a regular basis, so tape a laser pointer to your sight and show us how well you can "hold" while shooting a 300 round.


A laser pointer isn’t going to show what is in the sight picture. That is where you see or don’t see motion. It is also going to show that in even a very high X count game, a very few number of shots are going to be perfect in the sense that the dot appears to hold perfectly still through the execution. Add to that the fact that the actual time the execution starts to the time the shot fires is very, very small. Up to that point you are going to see a lot of movement with a laser at 20 yards. It would be insignificant to use that as a reference. 

Since you have been so interested in what is going on in the private group, you should have also read the topic about “Percentage of good shots.” In that I have stated I average around 50%. That means that in the recent 300-29x practice game, only 15 of 30 shots were what I considered my perfect hold and execution. To create the belief that every shot has to be that perfect would be foolish. Abandoning the belief that every shot could be that perfect is also foolish.

It is the effort to get that movement as close to visibly motionless as possible on every shot that produces those high X count games. Abandoning that effort will produce a lot of misses.


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## LMacD

Lazarus said:


> Using an unanticipated release, how do you make an arrow go where it's not pointed?


Game. Set. Match.


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## EPLC

nestly said:


> I believe the ability to hold in the middle is being greatly overstated. Float, wobble, movement, or whatever it's called is real, and it has to be managed just like every other aspect of shooting sports. Watch video of any professional archer where there the camera and background is stationary and the amount of "wobble" in their body and bow is very apparent before and during shot execution. Here's and extreme example from a month ago where John Dudley uses multiple cameras to record a 300 Vegas round. Watch the camera that's focused on the archer/bow and pay attention to how much he's moving during the shot. It's hard to believe he'd keeping them all in the yellow, much less shooting what looks to be a 300 / 30X.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I have similar feeling about "natural ability" and genetics. Not everyone can be a world champion regardless of how much time and effort they dedicate to try to make it happen. That's not to say anyone should give up their dreams, but sometimes it has to be "enough" to know you're giving it your best effort, even if you don't reach the ultimate goal.


A new challenge: Let's all post up a video showing our "float"... I'm game, who's in?


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## RCR_III

Read through this article that explains subconscious actions. This is the premise behind the "let it float" statement. You are controlling the shot. Your body and mind are controlling the shot. But the subconscious controls the shot. If you are consciously over controlling the shot, then your movements are too great. You're fighting yourself. Over correcting. But, when you program the mind to understand the objective and allow yourself to learn this skill and let the activity transition from conscious to subconscious you begin to have finer motions and the control of the shot is underlying. Now, this isn't to say the whole shot is controlled subconsciously. There are parts that you have to consciously do. But the end game of aiming and letting your body run the shot through your execution and "triggering" the release at the right moment can be advantageous in usuage of the subconscious. Because your brain will line up the muscles and structure as it sees needed to achieve the final outcome that is desired. 

http://www.effective-mind-control.com/understanding-the-subconscious-mind.html




Lazarus said:


> Really? Actually I thought it was a pretty recent shift in the paradigm. In fact I believe the idea of "hold" at all is pretty counter to the archery culture. Why? Because the archery culture has been sold the lie of "let it float and shoot the shot" for so long. Ok, it's not a lie, it's a philosophy that allows one to shoot their way to mediocrity.
> 
> I have a challenge for you. Please explain to us;
> 
> Using an unanticipated release, how do you make an arrow go where it's not pointed?





LMacD said:


> Game. Set. Match.


----------



## SonnyThomas

Lazarus said:


> nestly, :thumbs_up
> 
> Just another little nugget, and I had it confirmed yet again yesterday when setting up a whole new bow/setup. A steady hold has more to do with what's going on in your release hand and the four inches between it and your brain than any other single factor, draw length, hold weight, stabilizer length, angle, weight ratio. That's not a theory, it's just the way it works for me. Take it for what it's worth. Your experience may vary.


I believe it, the release hand doing something stupid to upset the shot. So reflexes or the brain going haywire.

I wonder, often said is someone noting that they've seen the X when they shot and the arrow still went into the X ring. I've experienced it. I mean I know my pin was off and the arrow still found wanted point of impact. Said was the brain or the eye wanting to peak to make sure the X was still there.... No different than usual, I was using a .019" pin with no lens yesterday and the pin all but covered up the 5. I'd groan when I darn near saw the whole 5, but damned if the arrow didn't make it in.
Shot at River's Edge, new sports shop that opened in Canton. About 9 or 10 miles from home.


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## Padgett

To me you have to earn the right to experience solid shooting, Putting in the time and then making solid decisions.

This indoor season I have done less messing around with different releases and firing engines, I had surgery and I simply committed myself to putting in the time to get back into shooting shape and not changing releases and methods. I have stuck with the same release most of the season and done the exact same shot over and over. I let go of accuracy and winning as my primary focus and just executed. To me letting go was my admission that I had to earn the right to get back what I had lost. 

Right now I am going to attribute my strong hold on the target to my engaged fingers, I switched to a click and on my hbc and once I get to the click I still have a good amount of effort to fire the hinge. It is not a shallow click. So my fingers are not afraid of the click and I engage them as I come to click and I can keep them engaged even after I click and my whole system from front to back is very solid and that solid feeling is transferring over into a very sweet hold. 

When I am just training and getting into shape and when I work with a new hinge or thumb trigger shooter I strongly promote letting go of accuracy and just floating so that a guy can learn how to execute. But once you get to the point where you want to really shoot strong and you have earned the right to hold really strong you can activate yourself into a different mode of execution where you actually allow yourself to be very accurate and hold perfect and win.


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## EPLC

EPLC said:


> A new challenge: Let's all post up a video showing our "float"... I'm game, who's in?


This was from March of last year after doing some work to reduce my "float"... I'll do a recent over the weekend.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FJLtl1EsnZg


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## RCR_III

Sounds fun. Are you just wanting to show that everyone moves?


EPLC said:


> This was from March of last year after doing some work to reduce my "float"... I'll do a recent over the weekend.
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FJLtl1EsnZg


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## Padgett

I win to many tournamants and league nights and get on podiums nationally to dismiss that a guy can and should know where he is at, accepting where you are at and being able to attend tournaments and enjoy yourself and win or loose is the key. Some of my best scores ever have came when I wasn't shooting my best and I just executed really smooth shots and went up to the target and wrote down what my score turned out to be. I have also had times where I was simply really good and my hold was perfect and I allowed myself to smoke the 12 ring inside out on a regular basis. 

That doesn't mean that in my training I don't do specific things that allow myself to work on finding the ability to achieve a strong hold, everything I do in my training is structured around finding the things that allow me to do exactly that. How do I shrink the hold and eliminate funny drop outs of the hold and time my hold within my shot window so that my hinge fires when the hold is at its best etc. But at the same time I don't just show up to leagues and tournaments and allow myself to suffer when I haven't earned the right to expect a perfect hold.


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## cbrunson

Why is this becoming a set up for challenges? The next logical progression in doing so is to bring out the "post your scores" challenges. Then the "who doesn't belong here" accusations.

I will leave it at this:

If you are happy with your performance, continue doing what you are doing. If you want something more, consider the offerings from people that have shown successful results. 

If you are here to discount other people's ideas because of something you heard, read, or watched in a video, you offer nothing. It's already been seen, read, and watched, and likely abandoned in the search for something more.


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## Padgett

Just last week I started my vegas round and after the first half I had 14 out of 15 baby x's and they were really solid but the problem was that it was all hold based, I had just converted over to the click and that change allowed my hold to be freaking awesome but I was just standing there waiting for it to fire and the shots were going way way long. I refuse to just stand there and wait while my system does nothing for the hinge to fire, so for the last week or so I have worked on getting my firing engine to run smoothly with the click and still see that sweet hold and yesterday I earned the right to accomplish that goal and things really ran smoothly.

In the past I would have just continued standing there and enjoying the scoring round and more than likely just continued for the next month or so just standing there and letting the hinge to fire accidentally. I refuse to waste time doing stupid things just to enjoy a scoring round at a local league night so I chose to enjoy the first 15 shots and then on the second half I engaged my fingers that caused me to miss a couple shots but by the end of the scoring round I was banging baby x's again and not just standing there.


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## EPLC

cbrunson said:


> Why is this becoming a set up for challenges? The next logical progression in doing so is to bring out the "post your scores" challenges. Then the "who doesn't belong here" accusations.
> 
> I will leave it at this:
> 
> If you are happy with your performance, continue doing what you are doing. If you want something more, consider the offerings from people that have shown successful results.
> 
> If you are here to discount other people's ideas because of something you heard, read, or watched in a video, you offer nothing. It's already been seen, read, and watched, and likely abandoned in the search for something more.


No it's not. I'd simply find it interesting to see from an outside perspective how much movement some of our better shooters are dealing with. We already know the scores of most on here, yourself included. No hidden agenda here.


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## Padgett

Cbrunson after 4 pages of this stuff just posted exactly what I have been waiting for in his last post. 

We need the best shooters in the world along with the mortals like myself to post what they are doing, they need to do it with 100% confidence and without holding back little tricks of the trade. They need to do it hundreds of times because when you are working with people that are doing things with 100% confidence it is going to take more than one effort to get through to them.


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## EPLC

RCR_III said:


> Sounds fun. Are you just wanting to show that everyone moves?


Not trying to "show" anything, I just want to observe.


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## nestly

Lazarus said:


> Really? Actually I thought it was a pretty recent shift in the paradigm. In fact I believe the idea of "hold" at all is pretty counter to the archery culture. Why? Because the archery culture has been sold the lie of "let it float and shoot the shot" for so long. Ok, it's not a lie, it's a philosophy that allows one to shoot their way to mediocrity.
> 
> I have a challenge for you. Please explain to us;
> 
> Using an unanticipated release, how do you make an arrow go where it's not pointed?


There are virtually endless accounts from archers, pro and otherwise, that describe arrows shot while their sights were not in the middle and yet the arrow still landed where they intended. I would suggest that you're being disingenuous with yourself and others if you claim you never released an arrow when the pin had drifted into the 9 ring and the arrow still went into the X-ring. 

Of course, all else being equal, the smaller the hold the better, but it's simply not true that you can't "score" better than you can "hold"

As far as the "challenge" goes, I think it's a good learning opportunity.


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## SonnyThomas

EPLC said:


> A new challenge: Let's all post up a video showing our "float"... I'm game, who's in?


Even if I could video myself it'd take a day and half to up load the video. Dial Up sucks. Heck, I've got flip to Firefox to watch a video and then I don't even try if a video is over 5 minutes long.

I'd bet on spot target I'm all over the place.

E, I replied to Laz's post about shooting a 5 spot round yesterday. Pin darn near off the 5. Holding on barely. A 300 about a week ago, 2 298 Sunday and 1 298 yesterday. Got aggravated and shot until I blew out the X ring of this target. Paying for this morning. Aching, but not real bad....


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## Lazarus

nestly said:


> There are virtually endless accounts from archers, pro and otherwise, that describe arrows shot while their sights were not in the middle and yet the arrow still landed where they intended.


Everyone who's shot freestyle even remotely seriously has done it. 

Now, how succesful have you been at repeating that feat for more than one arrow in a row? Much less, 30, 60, 72, or 112. 

Go ahead and tell us how to repeatedly shoot an unanticipated shot in the middle when the sight's not centered on the target. :cheers:


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## Padgett

I have explained this before but I am going to add something to it this time. Lets say your bow is almost dead on but it is one click to the left so it isn't perfect and the arrow is actually hitting about a 1/8 inch to the left. So you are having a good day of shooting and your sight pin is staying inside the 5-spot x and floating from one side of the x ring to the other and never actually leaving the x ring but it is on the line on each side of the x ring. 

So lets say that you have 47 shots that fired while your pin was inside out on the x ring and that leaves 13 of those shots that fired when you pin was on the line of the x ring. Now that leaves 13 shots that have a chance of missing on your scoring round, the other 47 shots are going to be solid, but depending on which side the shot breaks you have your problem because on the right side you are going to have solid line hits but on the left side you are going to have line lickers and a occasional miss just on the outer edge because you bow isn't sighted in. This is where many guys have the sensation that my pin was on the outer edge of the line and I still got a solid x. but at the same time they have other shots that are similar in the fact that they are on the line but they just missed.

The other side of this story is actually spending the time to understand what float really means so that you can use it to your advantage, your brain not only creates the float but it manages the float. Your brain creates the float by sending the sight pin to the center of the x but the bow has mass and momentum and it continues right on by the x and your brain then has to send it back the other direction towards the center of the x and then this becomes your float.

Now this creates the opportunity for you to be one of two guys, guy number one sees his pin leaving the center of the x and he tries to grab onto the pin and fix it and that muscle tension adds onto the effort to fire the release and the release fires during the effort when the sight pin is still leaving the center of the x and it results in a poor shot where the follow through was leaving the center and he hits poorly. Guy number 2 knows that the pin is going to change directions and he leaves his execution alone and the brain turns the pin around and sends the pin back across the center of the x and if the bow fires after the pin turns around his momentum of the bow and the follow through will send the arrow even more dead center even though it feld like he was on the edge when it fired. 

The risk that guy number 2 has to deal with is that if his float is a poor one that day where the pin is leaving the x on the edges then there is a chance that a few times that his bow will fire when it is outside the x.


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## grantmac

I think there are a couple things going on here.

The first one is that higher magnification used to be more common indoors with 6-8x being fairly common and it seems now more shooters opt for 3-5x. Nothing hard and fast but a general observation which may explain why some older shooters focus more on maintaining a consistent motion while newer strive for a near stop.

The second is that the arrow and sight aren't directly connected like on a rifle. You can have the sight pointed a different direction than the arrow and likely do on a regular basis. Why else would we torque tune?

Neither of those factors limit the fact that working on a better hold which you can maintain during execution will result in better scores.

Grant


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## Shogun1

With regard to this thread -- an interesting thought to explore -- are we really allowing the pin to sit still or is it only sitting so still that we don't perceive the movement? Think about that -- there IS a difference.

I have already argued a position that some don't agree -- that we need to abandon the mental picture of "holding" the pin in the middle (aka forcing it there by the sheer application of muscle and will power) I favor of the mental picture of allowing the pin to settle there instead.

I acknowledged the difference between allowing the pin to settle for some duration of time and the future event of the arrow center-punching the X.

Is it possible for a human to physically support a 4 to 8 pound object at arms length with absolutely zero movement of attached reference point that ranges anywhere from 4 or 5 inches beyond the outstretched arm all the way out to 12 or 15 inches beyond the arm?

Muscle fatigue, heart rate, reflexes, involuntary twitches, and anxiety, as well as external factors like wind all play into the problem.

An interesting question to explore is what impacts the archer's perception of movement. 

Consider sight bar extension. The advantage of an extended sight bar is an equally extended sight radius -- which should help improve accuracy. But consider for a moment -- a sight reference on the rotational axis of the bow would not show nearly as much movement as a sight reference extended to 12" beyond that axis ( given identical disturbances of the bow).

Consider the size of the aiming reference on the sight and its relationship to the target. 

Compare an open scope with no lens aimed at a blank bale. Can you see movement -- against what references?

Compare the archer's ability to perceive movement in that environment to an the same problem but give the archer a single pin, no lens, set rearward to be directly over the pivot point of the grip. (No, I don't know of a sight on the market that sets this relationship up.) So, tuck the sight back as close to the riser as possible.

Now, go to the other extreme. Set your sight bar as far out as it will go, add in a high power scope -- like a .8 diopter grind or higher. 

Also consider the "pin." Compare a fine pin -- .010 -- to a much larger pin which covers more of the target like a .029. To really draw in a comparison, replace the pin with an aiming dot mounted on the lens. How do these aiming references compare to an open circle as they affect the archer's ability to perceive movement.

Now consider target -- the distances to it, the target size, and the target face design.

Compare the movement you perceive on a clean blank white target face at 5 yards as opposed to that you perceive on a 50% sized Vegas face at 20 yards.

The real issue with perceived movement is the effect that perception has on the archer's inclination to allow the bow to settle or to engage in an effort to force the bow to sit still.


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## cbrunson

Lazarus said:


> Everyone who's shot freestyle even remotely seriously has done it.
> 
> Now, how succesful have you been at repeating that feat for more than one arrow in a row? Much less, 30, 60, 72, or 112.
> 
> Go ahead and tell us how to repeatedly shoot an unanticipated shot in the middle when the sight's not centered on the target. :cheers:


That's the whole point of trying to hold in the middle right there ^^^^

Can it still hit the X if you float outside the ten? Sure. I've done it. Happened twice out of 60 shots Tuesday night.
Will it hit the X every time that happens? Nope. I've shot a lot of nines.
Will you miss the X if it never leaves the ten? Maybe, but you'll still catch the ten.
Will you miss the X if it holds in the middle and you can't really see any movement in the second or two it takes to fire? Nope, you will hit the X. Even with a slightly imperfect release.

Can you hold that perfect 30-60-120 times in a row? Not likely, but as stated earlier, getting it just 50% of the time and really close the other 50% is going to be a very good game.


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## Padgett

Perception is a big thing, I know that tuesday night I had one of my best overall holding nighes in a long time and my pin just sit there on many shots but my buddy Jason mentioned that I was shaking quite a bit once our scoring round was over. I had no idea that I was actually shaking because my hold was awesome so my perception was totally different than jasons of my shooting.


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## cbrunson

Shogun1 said:


> The real issue with perceived movement is the effect that perception has on *the archer's inclination to allow the bow to settle or to engage in an effort to force the bow to sit still*.


That is why it is difficult to communicate a lot of this stuff. Confidence is not teachable. It's not coachable. It comes from individual success, repeated over a period of time. As mine improves, every aspect of my game improves with it.

Where have you been all this time? :lol:


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## twofinger

over my 25 years plus in archery I have watched guys like Terry Ragsdale To Reo Wilde and tried to copy their styles. I have never been able to hold in bull and I am always below the bull when I get to anchor it doesn't matter what style I shoot. I stopped trying to be like everyone else and now it is more enjoyable the way I shoot.


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## Lazarus

Shogun1 said:


> Also consider the "pin." Compare a fine pin -- .010 -- to a much larger pin which covers more of the target like a .029. To really draw in a comparison, replace the pin with an aiming dot mounted on the lens. *How do these aiming references compare to an open circle as they affect the archer's ability to perceive movement.*


This issue (what was bolded in red) was covered earlier after one of your previous responses. What wasn't mentioned (again) was the anxiety that can develop because the shooter is in effect blocking out what he or she is trying to hit. This anxiety has the potential to ad real movement to the sight picture. These are the intricacies that often get overlooked by those who have been unsuccessful in developing a comfortable hold. I use the term real movement because if its moving it's not perceived movement. If it looks like it's moving, it probably is, unless of course the shooter has been drinking. :wink: 

Bottom line, you all argue this all you want. Use your big words, theories, and wordy platitudes. But I can say this with 100% certainty. You don't put 12 arrows in a hole the size of your thumb (on a blue face) at 20 yards by wallering all over the target during the very final stages of your shot sequence. :cheers:


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## SonnyThomas

Found this in General Discussion. Firefox is taking forever to load video so I don't know if it applies....

Using a laser pointer to demonstrate what a stabilizer does

http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=3556370


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## cbrunson

Agreed. ^^^^

(Edit--- with Lazarus. Sonny snuck in there while I was typing.).


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## Padgett

This comes up on a regular basis so I would like to ask, Who is the person that is claiming to be wallering all over the target during the final stages of their shot sequence and claiming to be hitting dead on?


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## cbrunson

SonnyThomas said:


> Found this in General Discussion. Firefox is taking forever to load video so I don't know if it applies....
> 
> Using a laser pointer to demonstrate what a stabilizer does
> 
> http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=3556370


I shows the difference with or without a stabilizer. 

The important thing to keep in mind with a laser is that it is going to move a lot at 20yards in comparison to the dot that is only 3ft from your face. 

The dot is what moves in your sight picture.


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## SonnyThomas

Padgett said:


> This comes up on a regular basis so I would like to ask, Who is the person that is claiming to be wallering all over the target during the final stages of their shot sequence and claiming to be hitting dead on?


Well, I already said what I think. The pin may very moving (floating if want), but right at the point of starting to execute the pin looks dead still, not that it is, it just appears so. And it might look like that even if you flub the rest of the execution. Me saying I'm all over the place is just over dramatizing what's going on.
Probably the same thing shooting 3D targets, the pin looks dead still, but maybe be moving a tad, but there's no circle to say I am....


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## Rick!

Shogun1 said:


> With regard to this thread -- an interesting thought to explore -- are we really allowing the pin to sit still or is it only sitting so still that we don't perceive the movement? Think about that -- there IS a difference.
> 
> I have already argued a position that some don't agree -- that we need to abandon the mental picture of "holding" the pin in the middle (aka forcing it there by the sheer application of muscle and will power) I favor of the mental picture of allowing the pin to settle there instead.


Help me understand why you equate "hold" to forcing the aim point to be perceptibly still? I don't use extra muscle to achieve my hold. A coach I recently visited interpreted my feeling of being "wedged in" as the result of achieving a higher level of proper skeletal loading. You mentioned self-awareness as key to the hold, I agree. Archers without acute self-awareness are at a disadvantage.


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## nestly

cbrunson said:


> I shows the difference with or without a stabilizer.
> 
> The important thing to keep in mind with a laser is that it is going to move a lot at 20yards in comparison to the dot that is only 3ft from your face.
> 
> The dot is what moves in your sight picture.


The laser and the scope/dot are showing exactly the same thing. With enough magnification, you'd be able to see the dot moving on the target just as much as the projected dot is moving. As others have said, most of us move/float much more than we perceive, and that's fine, it's not mandatory to be aware of the movement to shoot arrows into the middle.


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## Lazarus

Padgett said:


> This comes up on a regular basis so I would like to ask, Who is the person that is claiming to be wallering all over the target during the final stages of their shot sequence and claiming to be hitting dead on?


Anyone who utilizes the hideous term of "float." 

If this forum were dominated by people (of which originated the term, and who deserve much respect) that were shooting recurves with no peeps and a drop pin at 90 meters, fine, but it's not! This forum is dominated by people that are trying to hit a dime at 20 yards or a silver dollar at 50. All I am saying is *you don't freaking "float" and consistently hit a dime at 20 and a silver dollar at 50. I'm sorry. * It's just not possible. 

For compound shooters, especially some with some influence, it's time to update the vocabulary to one that applies to today's precision shooting. And raise the bar and talk about possibilities rather than what's been thought to be "impossible" because of a few cranky old men that perpetuated the nonsense.


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## EPLC

Lazarus said:


> Anyone who utilizes the hideous term of "float."
> 
> If this forum were dominated by people (of which originated the term, and who deserve much respect) that were shooting recurves with no peeps and a drop pin at 90 meters, fine, but it's not! This forum is dominated by people that are trying to hit a dime at 20 yards or a silver dollar at 50. All I am saying is *you don't freaking "float" and consistently hit a dime at 20 and a silver dollar at 50. I'm sorry. * It's just not possible.
> 
> For compound shooters, especially some with some influence, it's time to update the vocabulary to one that applies to today's precision shooting. And raise the bar and talk about possibilities rather than what's been thought to be "impossible" because of a few cranky old men that perpetuated the nonsense.


I'd love to see a video of your shot using the same approximate framing as the Dudley flick... Seriously, I would, no hidden agenda. You can email it to me if you would prefer not posting... Same goes to all of you. My email is [email protected]


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## dmacey

Lazarus said:


> All I am saying is *you don't freaking "float" and consistently hit a dime at 20 and a silver dollar at 50. I'm sorry. * It's just not possible.


Nonsense:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=63vL0oWS9Vs

Just because _you_ can't do it, doesn't mean it can't be done 

DM


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## subconsciously

How does one process the shot for execution if the pin will not sit in the middle of the spot? Granted not hooter shooter solid, but it needs to be in the middle.


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## Lazarus

subconsciously said:


> How does one process the shot for execution if the pin will not sit in the middle of the spot? Granted not hooter shooter solid, but it needs to be in the middle.


Wasting your time. Same question was asked earlier in a slightly different form. No takers. I added the qualifier that it had to be an unanticipated shot since there may be one or two in the world that can do it by commanding it.


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## Padgett

Now we are getting somewhere, my question for you is how many of the other words or phrases with a method attached would you like to strike down as impossible?

1. Back tension shooting

2. Subconscious shooting

3. Floating

4. Push and pull

When you throw out the claim that something is impossible you may find that sooner or later someone shows you that not only is it possible but they can do it right her right now. For years I thought that shooting hinges was something that could only be done in perfect conditions, I saw guys leave 3d tournaments because they were hinge shooters and it was windy so they just went home. then I attended my first few asa national shoots and watched the best in the world shoot in the shoot downs and they smoked 14 rings in gusty windy conditions with their hinges. It took me another year and a half and then one day I was in the back yard smoking 12 rings at 40 yards with my hinge in the wind and it hit me that something I thought was impossible was now possible.


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## Mahly

I think we are getting hung up on terminology and our own definitions of it.
To me when I hear "Float" it CAN mean moving all around the target (if you have a horrible float) or it can mean slowly moving around on the baby X (if you have a really good "float").
When I hear it I assume (yes, I know :wink: ) they are describing the 3-8 seconds (depending on the shooter) spent aiming and executing the shot.
When I hear it I assume (yeah, again) that they are describing the range of motion the sight picture shows of the pin/dot/ring vs. the target.

At the moment, I do not hold my ring perfectly still (and at the moment, I'm not a 300 30x Vegas guy either). There are times of beauty that the movement DOES seem to stop for a couple of glorious seconds... Repeating those glorious seconds for each shot (while I a executing) is my current goal.

To me, the terms float and hold are often quite interchangeable, depending on who you are talking to.

As for the videos, I think people want to SEE what "ZERO float" looks like. Maybe they won't believe it till they see it. No need to shoot for score, just a couple arrows with the camera on the the end of the stabilizer to show movement or lack thereof.


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## nestly

... or for those who prefer to watch a multi time World champion, watch from 2:50 to 4:00 minutes in this Reo Wilde video where the camera and background are stationary and notice that his bow never stops moving while he aims and executes the shot. 





By all means, move as little as possible while you aim, but if you hope to eliminate it, you're out of luck, the best you can do is lower or eliminate magnification so you don't perceive it.


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## aread

Here is a perspective of a former Vegas winner:

http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=61



DarrinM said:


> L-Roy you can chalk it up to whatever you wish but I have shot so many great scores that I know were not 60 dead center holds I must be the luckiest guy around. I can not believe any archer holds all 60 shots dead center ever. I chalk this being able to aim with a free float to how ones bow is tuned.
> 
> I have had bows that stopped dead center.... Never do they score as well as a "floater bow". By that I mean a bow that stays around the center but not neccessarily in the center. I think this can be explained by a theory I have had for a while. When a bow stops dead center the only motion it makes goes away from the center. When the bow is floating the archer is always pushing towards the center. This constant movement towards the center will give you what we in MD call corrective follow thru. Try taking an arrow holding it perfectly straight up and letting go of it. It will fall any direction that it wants to or is directed. Take that same arrow and hold it on a slight angle towards two o'clock. It will fall consistently that direction. I always strive to tune my bows with that two o'clock lean so to speak.
> 
> Perfection is great but unfortunately none of are perfect. Find the flaws and address them the best you can and hopefully your scores will rise. I know mine did . DCM


I don't think I've read something by Darrin or listened to him at the clubhouse, where I didn't come away with something that helped me. Now if we could just get him off the @#$%^ golf course...

There are some other great archers on that thread. It's well worth reading. And it shows that this is not a new topic on AT. That thread started a few days after the beginning of AT.
Allen


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## cbrunson

subconsciously said:


> How does one process the shot for execution if the pin will not sit in the middle of the spot? Granted not hooter shooter solid, but it needs to be in the middle.


I think some may believe we are suggesting it stays there for several seconds, without falter, every time.

What's even more confusing is the pushback from the concept. Why would anyone discourage the effort? People are very confusing sometimes.


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## RCR_III

Go check your facts, I answered you haha


Lazarus said:


> Wasting your time. Same question was asked earlier in a slightly different form. No takers. I added the qualifier that it had to be an unanticipated shot since there may be one or two in the world that can do it by commanding it.


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## TNMAN

Watch the point of Dud's arrow against the wall. Especially watch it closely in the second before each shot breaks. It almost stops before the shot. If that fits the definition of "float", then that's the kind of float I could stand. But, overall, the term is not descriptive of what I want to achieve in a good hold.

I don't know....maybe I've spent too much time in a boat. Just typing that reminded me of shooting a USPSA stage that began sitting in a 12' aluminum boat. That's the kind of float that really hurts a score.


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## RCR_III

I'm a firm believer from studying how my float reacts and that there is a second or two, or however long for each person, where the movement virtually stops. If you can time your normal shot to go off during that window, it'll result nicely on the target. That's why I like a hinge. I can work on the speed of it to help me fall in that window as often as my body lets me. That's why I've written about it and done videos on it, because when I've worked with archers on this portion, the results happen. I just recently helped an archer with his shot and he won state.


TNMAN said:


> Watch the point of Dud's arrow against the wall. Especially watch it closely in the second before each shot breaks. It almost stops before the shot. If that fits the definition of "float", then that's the kind of float I could stand. But, overall, the term is not descriptive of what I want to achieve in a good hold.
> 
> I don't know....maybe I've spent too much time in a boat. Just typing that reminded me of shooting a USPSA stage that began in a 12' aluminum boat. That's the kind of float that really hurts a score.


----------



## nestly

cbrunson said:


> I think some may believe we are suggesting it stays there for several seconds, without falter, every time.
> 
> What's even more confusing is the pushback from the concept. Why would anyone discourage the effort? People are very confusing sometimes.


I don't think anyone here is interpreting a "steady hold" with "steady hold" of several seconds. Everyone develops a different standard based on their shooting form where the aim is "good enough" and you give yourself approval to executing the shot. No matter how long that condition exists before giving approval, or how long it take to execute the shot after approval is given, the pin either does or does not remain in the "good enough" zone, but it's unlikely that the pin never moves at all from the time approval is given until the shot breaks. 

And nobody is discouraging working to improve aim/hold. The "pushback" is against those who suggest that pin "float" isn't a real thing, or something that must be overcome before an archer can shoot well.


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## Padgett

One thought to really consider is waiting for the pin to be perfect before starting the execution of the shot, For example with the click hinge that I am using right now it is firing from 2 to 4 seconds into the execution and not one time has it gone off before 2 seconds. So why would I wait for the pin to be perfect to start the shot, I can comfortably start the shot and as the two seconds go by allow the pin to settle into a strong hold and then it may fire right at 2 seconds or 4 or even 6 but when I started the shot the pin was just arriving at the x.

If I wait for the pin to be perfect then I am guaranteeing myself that the hinge isn't going to fire for the first 2 seconds of it being perfect because it never fires in the first 2 seconds so it is wasted hold time.


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## cbrunson

When someone says they can get it to sit still, there is always one or two that come along and say, "No you can't."

Always the same, and usually the ones that say you can't, hover in anonymity, or have former or multiple profiles, and show up to take a side in every debate, yet have nothing from their own experience to offer. Only arguments.


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## Lazarus

RCR_III said:


> Go check your facts, I answered you haha


I saw it. I didn't consider <edited> some psychological mumbo jumbo an answer. Maybe you need to dumb it down a bit for us bow shooters.


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## Padgett

When you read my last post does anyone see the confidence that I have to have in my hold to use that method. I have to be 100% confident that I can start my engine as the pin is settling and after about 2 seconds it is going to be a sweet hold nice and strong in the x and then over the next 4 seconds my hinge is going to fire. So when I start my shot the pin is moving over to the middle and then I am overly confident it is going to stall out nice and centered and then hopefully it stays there or moves slightly as it fires. 

The first week or so I shot this click on my hbc I hated the first few seconds of my shot because it never fired and the hold was so freaking good and by the time it finally fired I was deep into the shot about to run out of breath and many times the awesome hold was gone and I was on the tail end hoping it would hang on just a little longer.


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## nestly

If they're anonymous, you kinda don't know their knowledge or skill level... right. IMO you'd be better served to address the actual content of the message than to approve or disapprove of their opinion based on speculation.

Either way, others including Mahly have suggested ways to determine how each of us can determine how steady we really are while aiming and executing a shot. For those truely interested, the facts are not hard to determine, even if only for personal benefit, but posting them here would certainly go a long way to proving or disproving how steady someone really can hold.


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## RCR_III

Lazarus said:


> I saw it. I didn't consider a cut and paste of some psychological mumbo jumbo an answer. Maybe you need to dumb it down a bit for us bow shooters.


I don't know what your problem is, but cut it out. There's no need for you to be an absolute jerk and definitely no need to say I cut and paste anything. 

I gave you a website to reference on the topic, then gave you my response as well.


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## cbrunson

You can see my targets in the private group you keep snooping in on. 

Those times when I miss, that's when my dot is moving instead of holding still.

If you're a good shooter, tell us who you are. Be proud of it. Show me your scores. 

If you are just using what other people say or have done then at least let them say it themselves.


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## Lazarus

RCR_III said:


> I gave you a website to reference on the topic, then gave you my response as well.


My apologies, I didn't read that far. I'm kind of ADD that way. Please take no offense, none was intended. This is an advanced forum, I don't believe the answer to a (somewhat) intermediate to advanced shooter would be the same as the answer to a beginner would be. That's why websites with general information etc don't grab too much of my attention. I'm sure the info is very helpful to some. :thumbs_up


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## dk_ace1

TNMAN said:


> Watch the point of Dud's arrow against the wall. Especially watch it closely in the second before each shot breaks. It almost stops before the shot. If that fits the definition of "float", then that's the kind of float I could stand. But, overall, the term is not descriptive of what I want to achieve in a good hold.
> 
> I don't know....maybe I've spent too much time in a boat. Just typing that reminded me of shooting a USPSA stage that began sitting in a 12' aluminum boat. That's the kind of float that really hurts a score.


I think it's worth mentioning that he's recovering from an extensive shoulder surgery. He's talked openly about the challenge it has been to rebuild his strength. Clearly, he can perform well even when the circumstances aren't optimal for him though. He is also an advocate of having a very dynamic shot. Just because he is a proponent of having a dynamic shot and doesn't preach much about getting a super steady hold, doesn't mean that a dynamic shot is the only way to shoot at a high level. I've spent a lot of time analyzing videos of pro shooters over the last few months. One thing has become clear, there are a LOT of ways to perform really well with a bow and arrow. What watching that footage taught me above all else is that ultimately you've got to find your own way. 

To me, the most important thing about this whole discussion is questioning the generally accepted thoughts of "just let it float." "Just let it float" was helpful to me and my shooting at one time, because I was trying to force the pin to the middle and then tighten up and hold it there. When I started hearing all the shooters saying to let it float I gave it a try. I relaxed as a result, less tension all over. I shot better. Sometimes my "float" was lousy when the shot went off and yet I got lucky and drilled the center. I found that I don't get that lucky as often as I would need to for the level of shooting I want to achieve. I read cbrunson's comments about holding steady in the middle and then noticed a few other outliers here saying similar things. It inspired me to work on trying some new things to get my pin to settle in the middle. I didn't forget the "let if float" lesson of relaxing in the shot as I started trying these things. I continued with the relaxed shot, but started trying and tweaking things to get my pin to settle down. My hold isn't as steady as others yet, but it's getting better and so is my shooting. I've been working at it for two weeks or so as I've been making some changes to my bow setup. I'm under no delusion that I'll ever be actually, completely, perfectly still while shooting from the time I draw to the time I release, but minimizing movement and holding as steady as possible on the center seem like worthy goals to me. If you can improve at this, and you can execute the shot cleanly, you will shoot better. It seems obvious to me.



cbrunson said:


> What's even more confusing is the pushback from the concept. Why would anyone discourage the effort? People are very confusing sometimes.


This. Working on holding still or close to it in the center and cleanly executing the shot seems like the most obvious way to improve your shooting once you've got down the basics. I don't understand why anyone wouldn't want to improve that or would decide that it's impossible without trying. It seems like the very thing I-A shooters would be spending most of their time on...

For me, "float" was a step on the journey to being a better archer. It was a step, not the destination. I learned the lessons it taught me, and now I'm learning new ones without forgetting the old ones.

D


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## erdman41

dk_ace1 said:


> For me, "float" was a step on the journey to being a better archer. It was a step, not the destination. I learned the lessons it taught me, and now I'm learning new ones without forgetting the old ones.
> 
> D


Same here great explanation!!

I now have an agressively/passive hold.


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## cbrunson

dk_ace1 said:


> For me, "float" was a step on the journey to being a better archer. It was a step, not the destination. I learned the lessons it taught me, and now I'm learning new ones without forgetting the old ones.
> 
> D





erdman41 said:


> Same here great explanation!!
> 
> I now have an agressively/passive hold.


:thumbs_up :thumbs_up :thumbs_up


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## jim p

You can clearly see that the bow is moving a good bit during the shot. So there is no way that he is holding on the x. However the arrows are going into the x.

My guess as to what is happening is that he is allowing his subconscious mind to fire the release when the movement of the sight is correct. If you consciously did this it would be called drive by shooting. I think that many shooters are doing the subconscious drive by shooting and this is one of the reasons that the hydraulic SCAT release is not the do all release.



dmacey said:


> Nonsense:
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=63vL0oWS9Vs
> 
> Just because _you_ can't do it, doesn't mean it can't be done
> 
> DM


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## Lazarus

erdman41 said:


> Same here great explanation!!
> 
> I now have an agressively/passive hold.


And I agree 100%. Great explanation!


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## dmacey

jim p said:


> You can clearly see that the bow is moving a good bit during the shot. So there is no way that he is holding on the x. However the arrows are going into the x.
> 
> My guess as to what is happening is that he is allowing his subconscious mind to fire the release when the movement of the sight is correct. If you consciously did this it would be called drive by shooting. I think that many shooters are doing the subconscious drive by shooting and this is one of the reasons that the hydraulic SCAT release is not the do all release.


I believe he works for a surprise shot, at least that's how he's described it? He's clearly able to get the shot off in his shot window pretty consistently, and that's how he does it, I guess.

As for this silly anti-"float" thing, it has come up actually several times in several threads, but it's still just as vacuous an idea now as it has always been. The claimants probably just _think_ they've got the pin absolutely still; that's the most likely explanation for why they remain wedded to the idea that they can do that. As I said, if they really truly had eliminated their floats, they'd be on top of every podium in the country all the time. But so far Jesse Broadwater and Reo don't seem to be under any threat at the moment. 

I was watching our local JOAD gal who's a regular 300 shooter at our league the other night and even she moves just a hair bit all the time and visibly so. But her arrows hit the baby X almost all the time....

DM


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## Lazarus

jim p said:


> You can clearly see that the bow is moving a good bit during the shot.


Maybe you're on to something. Everything during shot prep I call "process." Obviously there is movement during process. You have to get on the target. But the shot doesn't start until I say "go" only then it becomes a shot. Usually.  If you watch those video's what some of you may be interpreting as "float" may actually be process, more specifically, finding the dot and centering on it. 

I have been challenged on this several times today. I've put in several hours behind the bow today and occasionally I have been watching the movement or lack thereof. I shoot a ring that is basically the same size as the five on a blue face. On the shot, after I say "go" I'm nearly dead still with the x centered in that hole for two to three seconds, if the release fires in that window it's a pretty good bet it's going in the middle unless I've introduced some tension in the shot from somewhere. 

I have no earthly idea what the bow is "looking like" from the outside at that point and don't care. I just know what real movement is there, (not perceived) and that's basically nothing in that window. If it goes beyond that window, that's a whole nother story and off topic of this post. 

Have a good evening gang, my archery time for today is drawing to a close. :cheers:


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## Mahly

Let's not get too hung up on absolutes.
Nearly dead still, perceptible movement etc.

I see what is being said, and I see where the conflict is coming from.
Lazarus, pretty much explained exactly what he is seeing. 
Yes at full draw, there is movement.
A few second during execution, he sees zero or nearly zero movement.
Does anyone think this is not a worthy goal?
It doesn't go his way 100% of the time, but that is what he is striving for.
If/when he gets there, we will surely see him on bigger podiums.... But that's the trick, getting there.
Can it be done? Sure. Will everyone get there, heck no. But it's worth trying.
We can be super technical about things (nothing outside of zero gravity is ever motionless) or we can cut each other a little bit of slack and try to understand what they are saying and why.
I get the "zero" movement thing. I've seen it, but it's not a regular thing for me.... yet. I'd like to get there more often though.


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## EPLC

Wow! Didn't really think this would ruffle the feathers like it has... Putting all that aside, the Dudley video does exhibit a lot of visual movement and whether or not the movement actually stops just before the shot is not apparent. One thing for certain is that he is pulling regardless of that movement until the shot breaks. Another certainty is that he shot a 300 29/30... also regardless of the movement. I'm not sure what conclusions I can make of this. I have watched a lot of video of many of the worlds best shooting. Without a doubt these folks are very steady and it would seem that the more solid these people are in different events the better they perform. 

Another thing I remembered was from my own video. I guess I lost track of things due to my shoulder taking me back a step or two. I had been working on my range of motion (steadiness, float, or whatever makes you happy) all last winter. The videos did show improvement from my starting point to what I ended up with. I ended up running out of winter and thus ended my work on this. During the winter I did not see much of a difference in my scores even though my movement seemed to be less. What did happen was that I had a decent outdoor season and ended up winning the Silver Senior class in the NESFAA Outdoor Sectional... the last shoot before my shoulder went south.


----------



## dmacey

Mahly said:


> Let's not get too hung up on absolutes.
> Nearly dead still, perceptible movement etc.
> 
> I see what is being said, and I see where the conflict is coming from.
> Lazarus, pretty much explained exactly what he is seeing.
> Yes at full draw, there is movement.
> A few second during execution, he sees zero or nearly zero movement.
> Does anyone think this is not a worthy goal?


I'm specifically referring to the statement made by Laz "It's easier for a lot of people to just believe in this hideous notion of 'float' than to believe they can actually hold in the middle." and apparently also co-opted by cbrunson. The implication here is that these two have somehow managed to overcome the 'float' that all the rest of us have to deal with and have replaced it with a superior ability called 'hold in the middle'.

However, based on what I've observed from other archers, even standing next to one or two who are at an elite level and watching their movements with my own eyes, it sounds like these two guys are really the only two archers who have actually accomplished this feat. 

So, all I'm doing is asking for evidence of their claim and that's it. There are no attacks of any kind going on here; just an honest interest in support for a claim and nothing more. However, I do have to say that, unless their working definitions of 'float' and 'hold in the middle' are different than the ones held by the rest of us, I find this claim very improbable at best. 

But it looks like no evidence will be forthcoming, I'm afraid, based on the responses so far....

DM


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## SonnyThomas

dk_ace1 said:


> I think it's worth mentioning that he's (John Dudley) recovering from an extensive shoulder surgery. He's talked openly about the challenge it has been to rebuild his strength. Clearly, he can perform well even when the circumstances aren't optimal for him though. He is also an advocate of having a very dynamic shot. Just because he is a proponent of having a dynamic shot and doesn't preach much about getting a super steady hold, doesn't mean that a dynamic shot is the only way to shoot at a high level. D


Just in case. What I heard John had a full shoulder replacement. Friend of mine was one of the very first to get one. To hear him the artificial shoulder is a God send and it is. BUT! One, his artificial shoulder has a life expectance of 5 years. Maybe the newer have more. Two, artificial shoulders are the same as jury rigged. You can only push these artificial shoulders just so far and then where joined can weaken, can fail....
I wish John the best..........


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## erdman41

Your sight picture is what I take it as being still. Nobody can see what they look like while shooting. Look at the dot sizes most pros are running (Braden's at Lancaster looked huge) Lazarus stated his circle is the size of the white. My dot is almost the size of the white. This is going to make your sight picture sit in the middle. Which also is a calming and relaxing which helps your hold and release execution.

Buddy had a tiny spec of a dot in his scope. We had the same sight so tried his sight block on my sight. Pulled back and pretty much immediately let down. No way I would want to have to look at that. Would make me tense which would wreck my hold and release execution in a downward spiral. I prefer upward spirals instead.

Attitude towards aiming helped me to tighten my groups up. The way I look at it is if I passively aim is what I would call floating. But if I aggressively aim I am for the most part able to hold in the middle. Controlling my hold is done passively. 

Going for a Sunday drive in the country would be floating/passive driving. You stay between the lines. Three lane freeway doing 70mph in 3 inches of snow with a semi on each side of you would be aggressive driving. Trying to keep your vehicle dead center of your lane.

Like a previous poster said learning how to let it float was an important step as it taught me to be very passive in controlling my hold. The next step was becoming aggressive mentally with my aiming.


----------



## grantmac

Perception is everything, I see far more motion with a large dot compared to a small pin. Doesn't make either of us wrong just different. 

Perhaps 50% of the time I cannot perceive motion in the pin during the execution (indoors). I'm running a modest amount of extention and magnification since perceived motion can stall my execution. A smooth execution beats perfection of aim in my experience.

Grant


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## shootahoyt77

Good read for later


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## Mahly

Alright guys, thats enough.
Re-read the OP and reply to that topic, not who shoots what scores, or who needs proof that someone can hold steady, or who you do or do not believe.
The needless bickering ends now. Please don't let someone drag you into the mud, even if your right.


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## Lazarus

erdman41 said:


> Your sight picture is what I take it as being still. Nobody can see what they look like while shooting. Look at the dot sizes most pros are running (Braden's at Lancaster looked huge) Lazarus stated his circle is the size of the white. My dot is almost the size of the white. This is going to make your sight picture sit in the middle. Which also is a calming and relaxing which helps your hold and release execution.
> 
> Buddy had a tiny spec of a dot in his scope. We had the same sight so tried his sight block on my sight. Pulled back and pretty much immediately let down. No way I would want to have to look at that. Would make me tense which would wreck my hold and release execution in a downward spiral. I prefer upward spirals instead.
> 
> Attitude towards aiming helped me to tighten my groups up. The way I look at it is if I passively aim is what I would call floating. But if I aggressively aim I am for the most part able to hold in the middle. Controlling my hold is done passively.
> 
> Going for a Sunday drive in the country would be floating/passive driving. You stay between the lines. Three lane freeway doing 70mph in 3 inches of snow with a semi on each side of you would be aggressive driving. Trying to keep your vehicle dead center of your lane.
> 
> Like a previous poster said learning how to let it float was an important step as it taught me to be very passive in controlling my hold. The next step was becoming aggressive mentally with my aiming.


I would like to quote this post just because it's pure gold. It covers the whole range of this topic as it relates to the OP and the discussion following. 

If I may I would like to ad one thing. Much of the popular thought on this subject came from an era where people/bows were much less accurate than they are today. Will someone soon string together 3 300/30x rounds for a 900/90? It's not that far out of reach. I don't believe the people who are shooting that well do so by accepting the status quo about any aspect of the shot process.


----------



## ILOVE3D

EPLC said:


> Lot's of conflict here lately (and perhaps not just lately)
> 
> Here's the problem as I see it. There are those who have little or no problem holding the dot in the middle. Those in this group have either a natural ability or have discovered and developed this ability over time, I believe most were just born with it and with training and practice it has become second nature. When these folks say "Just put the pin in the middle and shoot your shot" (or the endless variations of that), they take for granted that others can just do this.
> 
> For those that have difficulty holding in the middle statements such as this mean very little and much of what follows is pointless. You can't get to second base if you can't get to first. Yet, Group one feels frustrated that the group two people are not listening and the group two folks feel frustrated that the group one folks are holding back and not sharing their "secrets"... Naturally the group two people have had to develop along a different path and will have differences of opinion as to what works for them. Very few in group 2, if any, will ever shoot a 60X game. My PB was 57X and that was a long time ago.
> 
> So, here we are...
> 
> To prove or disprove my point I put out the following challenge to those that belong to the new semi-private target archery group: Please specifically describe how do you hold the pin in the middle? I'll bet most can't put it into words that the group 2 folks can grasp or understand or put into practice.


I've been looking through my books, core archery, pro-active archery, Bernies books and can't find it but somewhere I read about different personality types, type a, b and c where one type A I believe is the controlling personality and sometimes they have trouble either holding either a small pin or even a large dot in the center. I must be this type because holding the small pin I see the movement in my float and try to force the pin back and this causes the pin to go too far to the opposite side. Using a large dot helped somewhat but then I sometimes and often wanted to peak to see the X, I knew it was still there but just knew I needed to concentrate on what I wanted to hit, the X. I began experimenting with different size circles, skinny lines, chubby lines and different power lenses. I find that for me on say a Vegas face or the 5 spot I can hold much more steady and my sight picture seems to much more steady and part of which I believe is I can see the X and concentrate on it. Heck, I've got to use at least a 6X to even see the X on a Vegas or blue X on the 5 spot. Using a higher power also magnifies my every movement as you all know. I also believe and know that with my age coming into play and vision declining which it usually does for all of us when we age. I accept the fact I will NEVER be able to hold my pin or dot perfectly steady on the X. I must add that 3d shooting is not as bad using a .019 fiber as I can usually hold within the 10 ring or at least where I think it is. Using a 4X I can almost never even distinguish the 12 ring so just try to error wither to the bottom or just hold center if that's' where it is. That being said I still visit this forum frequently and enjoy reading tips and gaining valuable information from time to time.


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## EPLC

subconsciously said:


> All I know is that if the pin will not settle in, I cannot process the shot.


I believe this may be the root of all (or at least most) of my misses. When the pin won't settle I find myself executing anyway... usually a bad idea.


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## nestly

EPLC said:


> I'd love to see a video of your shot using the same approximate framing as the Dudley flick... Seriously, I would, no hidden agenda. You can email it to me if you would prefer not posting... Same goes to all of you. My email is [email protected]


I'm not afraid.  Pay no attention to the location of the laser dot on the target, it's literally just stuck to my stabilizer with two-sided foam tape and a rubber band so I have to re-adjust it after each shot. I'm not aiming with or at the laser dot, it's only purpose is to show how much the bow is actually moving while aiming and during release. I am however fully aware that my scope pin is floating on the target just as much as the projected red dot is moving on the target. In the interest of full disclosure, I was probably moving a bit more than I normally do because I was intentionally focused on keeping the dot in the middle, and what works best for me is not to fight the pin movement, rather just focus on making good shots. Not necessarily going to say my group would have been better, but my float would likely have been smaller and slower.


Stanslowski BlackJack (0.006") click.
1/16" Specialty Archery peep
4X magnification scope w/ 5/32" dot


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## duc

....usually a bad idea. So you let this happen knowing the shot is crap??? And you wonder why you have problems??? Every time you do this you are cheating yourself. Like the dieter that says "it's just ONE piece of chocolate" and wonders why they can't loose weight. You need to pull that lens out and TRAIN TRAIN TRAIN yourself out of bad habits. Mindlessly shooting arrows and wishful thinking isn't going to work. You need to understand the concept of breaking down your processes and work on the part/s that need working on. And KEEP working on it. And when you get it right, keep working on it. Do you think Tiger Woods plays a round of golf every day. No. He PRACTICES his putting his driving his chip shots ENDLESSLY and puts them together as a game. And he does this ALL THE TIME. TRAINING TRAINING TRAINING. Until you can and want to this, all your going to do is post here endlessly.


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## EPLC

nestly said:


> I'm not afraid.  Pay no attention to the location of the laser dot on the target, it's literally just stuck to my stabilizer with two-sided foam tape and a rubber band so I have to re-adjust it after each shot. I'm not aiming with or at the laser dot, it's only purpose is to show how much the bow is actually moving while aiming and during release. I am however fully aware that my scope pin is floating on the target just as much as the projected red dot is moving on the target. In the interest of full disclosure, I was probably moving a bit more than I normally do because I was intentionally focused on keeping the dot in the middle, and what works best for me is not to fight the pin movement, rather just focus on making good shots. Not necessarily going to say my group would have been better, but my float would likely have been smaller and slower.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Stanslowski BlackJack (0.006") click.
> 1/16" Specialty Archery peep
> 4X magnification scope w/ 5/32" dot


Interesting video, thank you so much. I've only studied this a couple of times but I am noticing the laser dot does seem to settle just as the shot breaks. Your statement about "intentionally" controlling the pin making things worst is something I have some experience with. "Letting it settle" is something that has been mentioned here by others and is something that I can only do on occasion. I believe there is a subtle but huge difference between controlling and letting which gets hung up in how people express the two.

I also did a video yesterday during a period of dreadful steadiness. What did come out from watching it was that my bow had gotten way out of configuration. I was simply not inline with the arrow, not even close. This was due to my making adjustments do to my shoulder problem. I added quite a bit to the loop last evening and things have smoothed out quite a bit, at least at short range. I may post up a before and after video if I can get away this morning to shoot. Thanks again.


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## Icarus7n

The degree to which you "Let it settle" also depends on a variety of things. Caffeine, proper hydration/diet, core strength, energy levels etc. Some days will be steadier than others obviously. It might even be mostly mental. Try settling your nerves with a small glass of wine or something, see if that relaxes you enough for a better settle. there are quite a few factors that affect steadiness, so each practice try the process of elimination. You'll never be motionless throughout the whole shot, but assuming your properly set up there should be a window of smooth float.


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## EPLC

Here's yesterday, as dismal as it was.


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## EPLC

And today after a longer loop was installed. Unfortunately only the first shot of 3 were recorded for some reason.


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## jim p

EPLC, you have got to smile more.

Your first two shots looked like you were holding pretty well and the last shots looked like you were moving way too much.

It appeared that you have your draw weight set low enough that you can draw it with ease.

Those last shots looked like the bow never stopped moving and the movement was fairly large. This can sometimes be an indication of a draw length that is too long.

Last May I was extremely sick and very weak. I was floating all over the target and if I could keep it inside the red I was happy. I am going much better now and my strength is coming back. I noticed that when I feel strong that I can keep it in the yellow. I mention this because if you are struggling with strength issues it is hard to keep the arrows in the yellow.


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## jim p

I went back and looked at your videos some more and I am seeing a lot of body movement. It looks like you are having some balance issues. Look up some exercises for improving balance. Once simple exercise is standing on your toes while brushing your teeth. Another is the tree pose in yoga which is standing on one foot and resting the heal of the other foot just above the ankle of your standing leg.

I know that shooting can be very aggravating with little pleasure when things are not going like you want. I have been riding in that boat for a long time. Find some way to put the fun back in to the game. I have been threatening to put balloons on a few of my targets if things don't get better.


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## jim p

Nestle thanks for the float videos. It looked like when your float was buzzing in a place about the size of the 10 ring that you got an X. The one 9 looked like the laser moved in a place about the size of a 9.

Thanks again. My pin looks like it mostly stays inside the 8 ring and I get a lot of 9's.


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## xavier102772

One thing I learned recently that has helped my shot and hold has been the introduction to the BEST Method by Kisik Lee. Thanks to someone on here for pointing me in this direction. Good info on the method is here: http://www.kslinternationalarchery.com/ and here http://www.mfaa-archery.org/Tech-Support/Archery_Form_Handbook.pdf I'm sure you can find a lot more info on the method with a simple search. My shooting has gone up to a new level since learning and applying some of the techniques of the BEST method. 

I have found that being more dynamic with my shot, becoming more consistent and better with the BEST method techniques and striving to find the optimum points/pressures is key. The following 3 points and how well I perform them seemed to have the most impact on my hold/float.

Low wrist grip and bow hand tension.
Very slight reaching towards target while loading the back. 
Continuous pull from draw hand to elbow - thinking about a chain linking the two. I kinda think about it as, pulling into the target where aiming and holding is done primarily on the back side. (This seems to by the biggest key to getting the best aim and hold. *The more the focus of my shot is on the back side and this smooth pulling with the chain, through shot release, the better the hold and the better the result.*) 

And yes, as I get better at the fine nuances of the BEST method techniques that I've integrated in my shot, the better my hold and the more often my hold *appears* to stay very still for 1-2 seconds at a time. Generally, this is the period I've been working to have my hinge go off. Still, it only happens maybe once every 3-5 shots where I can get those 1-2 seconds. Sometimes the stillness is longer, sometimes shorter. Usually, I'm holding/floating in the yellow with the dynamic shot of the BEST method. Using a very slight reach towards target and pulling through the shot with the chain and loaded back, 10s and x's are the result. The best shots I've found so far have come from not focusing too much at all on my bow hand (except to keep my wrist low, hand relaxed with my fingers lightly resting on the riser) but keeping almost all my focus on loading my back and *smooth* pulling into release. Seems to be working so far and continues to improve. It felt a bit awkward at first, but it quickly felt so much better and more natural than my old shot process I can't imagine going back to how I used to shoot. 

I'm sure if anyone looks into the BEST method and applies some of the techniques, it can only make their hold/float better, more solid, more confident, more bio-mechanically sound. IMHO.


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## EPLC

erdman41 said:


> Your sight picture is what I take it as being still. Nobody can see what they look like while shooting. Look at the dot sizes most pros are running (Braden's at Lancaster looked huge) Lazarus stated his circle is the size of the white. My dot is almost the size of the white. This is going to make your sight picture sit in the middle. Which also is a calming and relaxing which helps your hold and release execution.
> 
> Buddy had a tiny spec of a dot in his scope. We had the same sight so tried his sight block on my sight. Pulled back and pretty much immediately let down. No way I would want to have to look at that. Would make me tense which would wreck my hold and release execution in a downward spiral. I prefer upward spirals instead.
> 
> Attitude towards aiming helped me to tighten my groups up. The way I look at it is if I passively aim is what I would call floating. But if I aggressively aim I am for the most part able to hold in the middle. Controlling my hold is done passively.
> 
> Going for a Sunday drive in the country would be floating/passive driving. You stay between the lines. Three lane freeway doing 70mph in 3 inches of snow with a semi on each side of you would be aggressive driving. Trying to keep your vehicle dead center of your lane.
> 
> Like a previous poster said learning how to let it float was an important step as it taught me to be very passive in controlling my hold. The next step was becoming aggressive mentally with my aiming.


I've always known that sight picture can and does impact my hold. After reading this post I decided to experiment with a really large dot and the results are very encouraging. With the large dot (1/4") I find that it is much easier to hold in the middle. I'm still dealing with some stamina issues due to my shoulder (which is getting a lot better) but for several ends my groups have gotten very tight. Thanks erdman41!


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## nestly

I liked what the laser was showing me so much I picked up a truglow picatinny stabilizer rail so I can keep my laser dot consistent. When sighted in, I can't see it on the target behind my scope dot with my aiming eye. I'll try to make another video when I get a chance

Sent from my XT907 using Tapatalk


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## EPLC

nestly said:


> I liked what the laser was showing me so much I picked up a truglow picatinny stabilizer rail so I can keep my laser dot consistent. When sighted in, I can't see it on the target behind my scope dot with my aiming eye. I'll try to make another video when I get a chance
> 
> Sent from my XT907 using Tapatalk


That would be great! Where did you get the mount? and could you post a picture of it?

EDIT: I just ordered one!


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## nestly

Here's pic. TruGlo rail mount and Crosman laser I had for a CO2 pellet pistol.


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## EPLC

Also have one of these ordered. http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00X356WZQ?redirect=true&ref_=ya_st_dp_summary


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## montigre

Be very careful while playing with lasers while practicing. I know of some shooters who used these in the past who developed anticipation problems as a result when they focused too much on the laser and not the spot on the target they wished to hit.


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## Reverend

EPLC said:


> Also have one of these ordered. http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00X356WZQ?redirect=true&ref_=ya_st_dp_summary


That's the one I've used on and off, but not for aiming. I set my laser to point outside of my scopes aim, and I simply set up a camera to video the laser movement during the hold. This way I can analyze my hold and float while not focusing on the laser. I think it would be a great aid for a coach to see what in essence, a shooter is seeing while aiming.


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## GRIMWALD

EPLC said:


> Also have one of these ordered. http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00X356WZQ?redirect=true&ref_=ya_st_dp_summary


Far be it for me to question putting a laser on anything. As far as I am concerned putting lasers, Bluetooth or WiFi on everything should be mandatory but would you not be better served, by adding a camera view before the site housing so that you can actually view your actual field of view as you shoot?
If you were to mount a GO Pro or maybe you cell phone to the face of the site housing, so that you look through the LCD to view the pins and the target beyond. It "Should" be possible to record what your actual view is. without to much distraction.

GRIM


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## nestly

montigre said:


> Be very careful while playing with lasers while practicing. I know of some shooters who used these in the past who developed anticipation problems as a result when they focused too much on the laser and not the spot on the target they wished to hit.


I also wouldn't recommend "aiming" with the laser. Since adding the rail mount, I can't even see the laser dot on the target with my aiming eye because its behind the scope dot. Other than being the ultimate torque indicator, the laser serves no purpose during the actual shot...but I am learning from reviewing the video which shows the amount of movement and the relative position of where the bow was "pointed" vs where the arrow landed.

Sent from my XT907 using Tapatalk


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## jim p

I like the idea of using the laser as a torque indicator. How far typically will the laser move from behind the pin when the bow is torqued?

With my bow and sight if I torque the bow to the right, the arrow will hit to the left. I think that this is happening because when the bow is torqued to the right the sight will move to the right. Then I move the sight back to the spot and the arrow will hit left. It appears that the impact of the arrow is not affected as much by torque as the aiming point of the sight is impacted.


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## nestly

jim p said:


> I like the idea of using the laser as a torque indicator. How far typically will the laser move from behind the pin when the bow is torqued?
> 
> With my bow and sight if I torque the bow to the right, the arrow will hit to the left. I think that this is happening because when the bow is torqued to the right the sight will move to the right. Then I move the sight back to the spot and the arrow will hit left. It appears that the impact of the arrow is not affected as much by torque as the aiming point of the sight is impacted.


My scope dot covers about 2.25" on a 20 yard target. The haze on the laser is probably about 1" diameter, so in theory the laser should start to peek out from behind the dot with as little as 5/8" "torque" in any direction. With my current setup, it takes a fairly deliberate effort to make that happen, but I think many of the bows I've shot in the past would have been much less forgiving.


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## Mahly

Hey guys, we're drifting off topic here, and into gear territory.
Lets get back to the topic please.


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## EPLC

Mahly said:


> Hey guys, we're drifting off topic here, and into gear territory.
> Lets get back to the topic please.


As the OP I think these discussions are consistent with the topic of stability/movement... but since this could be considered a side discussion of the main topic I've started another thread to discuss sight picture and its effect on movement.


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## nestly

The discussion about installing and aiming a laser is a bit gear oriented, but using a laser to determine the *actual* amount of float versus *perceived* float seems pretty germane.
Finally got around to doing another vid with the rail mounted laser. I want to repeat that the laser is not being used for aiming... in fact I can't even see it while aiming at the target because it's "behind" my scope dot. It's kinda humbling to see all the movement, and it has me thinking about ways to reduce it, but then again it demonstrates that scoring depends on more than just being able to "hold steady" so perhaps it's not that relevant?


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## grantmac

I'd like to see a (non-shooting) demo using a laser mounted in/on the arrow compared to one mounted on the bow.
Should be easy enough to rig and might be a useful tool for torque tuning.

Grant


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## nestly

grantmac said:


> I'd like to see a (non-shooting) demo using a laser mounted in/on the arrow compared to one mounted on the bow.
> Should be easy enough to rig and might be a useful tool for torque tuning.
> 
> Grant


I'm sure I've seen lasers that screw into the arrow's insert. 

Probably getting too technical again, but I'd personally see less value in that test.
1) if using a blade type rest, I imagine the vertical bounce would be pretty extreme.
2) not sure an arrow mounted laser would really show much in terms of shooter induced bow torque since the rest is generally mounted above the grip. However two lasers (one on the arrow and one on the riser) would show the total torque present in the bow at full draw due to forces inherent to the bow design (ie offsetting both cables to the same side, unequal limb tip loading, etc) as well as shooter induced torque.

Here's another vid inspired by different topic that shows how much stabilizers can slow down movement.


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## jim p

It is very easy to see the difference in the movement.

It was also interesting to see the arrow go high with the stabilizer and into the x without the stabilizers. I am guessing that the laser was not aiming exactly where the sights were aligned.

Thanks again for posting these laser videos. Your float looks much like mine but it seems that my arrows like to hit at the far edge of my float instead of in the center of my float pattern. Just the way the cookie crumbles.


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## grantmac

Two lasers; one on the arrow and one on the bow is what I was thinking. This gets into the theory that a well tuned bow can shoot inside your float.
Theoretically this is totally possible given that the rest, sight, peep and nocking point are not fixed in relation to each other. I'd like to be able to explore that relationship visually using the lasers.

Grant


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## EPLC

nestly said:


> The discussion about installing and aiming a laser is a bit gear oriented, but using a laser to determine the *actual* amount of float versus *perceived* float seems pretty germane.
> Finally got around to doing another vid with the rail mounted laser. I want to repeat that the laser is not being used for aiming... in fact I can't even see it while aiming at the target because it's "behind" my scope dot. It's kinda humbling to see all the movement, and it has me thinking about ways to reduce it, but then again it demonstrates that scoring depends on more than just being able to "hold steady" so perhaps it's not that relevant?


Great video, thanks. I can actually "read" the laser movement for each shot pretty well. On the one's where the motion becomes somewhat choppy just before the shot breaks I assume reflect some difficulty on the release end where there are others that seem smoother and are centered better... both with the laser and arrow placement. Definitely worth playing with. 

I assume your laser has adjustability based on your ability to center it on the target? Mine (arrived today) has no adjustment so it points where it points. I like yours better


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## nestly

jim p said:


> It was also interesting to see the arrow go high with the stabilizer and into the x without the stabilizers. I am guessing that the laser was not aiming exactly where the sights were aligned.


Correct, it appears the laser and my sights aren't perfectly aligned. My dot covers about 2.25 inches on the target so it's kinda hard to tell until reviewing the video.



EPLC said:


> Great video, thanks. I can actually "read" the laser movement for each shot pretty well. On the one's where the motion becomes somewhat choppy just before the shot breaks I assume reflect some difficulty on the release end where there are others that seem smoother and are centered better... both with the laser and arrow placement. Definitely worth playing with.
> 
> I assume your laser has adjustability based on your ability to center it on the target? Mine (arrived today) has no adjustment so it points where it points. I like yours better


The link you posted shows a laser with a couple small set screws in the knurled portion near the front.... those are the adjustments, same as mine.


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## EPLC

Here's my laser reference on hold. There are 3 shots from 20 yards. The first shot shows it broke down but I recovered. This shot should have been let down. The second and third shots were actually pretty good shots both in sighting and in execution. The second shot was actually a glance out. Amazing what this laser video can tell you about your game.


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## sharkred7

erdman41 said:


> Your sight picture is what I take it as being still. Nobody can see what they look like while shooting. Look at the dot sizes most pros are running (Braden's at Lancaster looked huge) Lazarus stated his circle is the size of the white. My dot is almost the size of the white. This is going to make your sight picture sit in the middle. Which also is a calming and relaxing which helps your hold and release execution.
> 
> Buddy had a tiny spec of a dot in his scope. We had the same sight so tried his sight block on my sight. Pulled back and pretty much immediately let down. No way I would want to have to look at that. Would make me tense which would wreck my hold and release execution in a downward spiral. I prefer upward spirals instead.
> 
> Attitude towards aiming helped me to tighten my groups up. The way I look at it is if I passively aim is what I would call floating. But if I aggressively aim I am for the most part able to hold in the middle. Controlling my hold is done passively.
> 
> Going for a Sunday drive in the country would be floating/passive driving. You stay between the lines. Three lane freeway doing 70mph in 3 inches of snow with a semi on each side of you would be aggressive driving. Trying to keep your vehicle dead center of your lane.
> 
> Like a previous poster said learning how to let it float was an important step as it taught me to be very passive in controlling my hold. The next step was becoming aggressive mentally with my aiming.[/QUOTE
> 
> Totally agree.
> 
> Scott likes a huge dot, helps calm him. I like a .019 red fiber. Who is right? We both are. It works for us. In fact last weekend we stood toe to toe in a shootoff for our state freestyle championship. We both have different styles of shooting but have worked hard to find WHAT WORKS FOR US! That I believe is key. I have read and tried so many different things and made many mistakes.


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## sharkred7

Ive just spent a good deal of time going through this whole thread. So much has been touched on and debated that I'm not sure I have anything new to offer except to address this issue

How does one process the shot for execution if the pin will not sit in the middle of the spot? Granted not hooter shooter solid, but it needs to be in the middle. 

I have had the same friend coach me for almost 20 years. He is not neccesarily a documented coach holding several coaching titles (I believe he's a level II but not sure, he never talks about it) but he has coached several state and national champions.

What he taught me about starting shot execution may sound backwards to some. Shot execution comes BEFORE aiming, aiming is the last thing you do.

Lets look at it with theses assumptions

1. We are striving for a subconscious release

2. We are looking at a shot window of 2-5 seconds (or whatever is your shot window)

How many times have all of you seen a perfectly still dot and your mind screamed go off now its sitting in the middle. Then just before you shoot the pin stars moving around and shot goes south from there.

If you start your shot BEFORE aiming, then all the muscles involved on the shot process are engaged, no change in tension causing abrupt sight picture changes. Then, trusting your execution you do NOTHING but aim until the shot fires. At any time your focus on aiming is distracted you start over.

I explain it this way.

Splash your sight in the general center of your target, start your shot, then focus until your arrow is buried in the middle.

I think most people aim WAAAY to much before starting the shot which limits the amount of time you can hold at you steadiest.

My .02

John


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## EPLC

Interesting post, my brain will need to process how to actually do this but it looks worthy of some effort. Btw, who won!


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## erdman41

EPLC said:


> Interesting post, my brain will need to process how to actually do this but it looks worthy of some effort. Btw, who won!


It took 141 arrows but I did. Pretty much as close to a tie as you can get but still have it decided.


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## EPLC

erdman41 said:


> It took 141 arrows but I did. Pretty much as close to a tie as you can get but still have it decided.


Congrats to both of you for some really great shooting!


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## sharkred7

Thanks! It was actually the most fun I've had shooting and I think this experience will help both of us in the future. Scott works really hard on his shooting and is a great shooting partner that helps push you to be your best.


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## V3505

While this has proven to be an insightful post, I feel there is more to the steady float idea.... 

In my opinion, the float only comes natural if you focus more on your mental game. Its been my experience, some want to reach the finish line before they've invested time and energy in learning how to get there. If you look at the National Training System (13 steps of the shot cycle,) Stance thru anchoring is pretty basic. Once you learn it, you own it. Transfer, holding and expansion/aiming are the finer points, yet aiming is the last and often the less important before the arrow is actually released. Once you reach the aiming stage of the shot cycle, your brain doesn't play a big part of it,. If your brain has to tell you to steady up and "float", you may have already missed the window of opportunity. This is why there is no specific answer to holding steady. For someone who really wants to be a competitive shooter, I recommend reading books and learning for yourself, because every person is different and has their own perspective as to "how they got there". One of my biggest accomplishments in this game was learning how to use back tension correctly. Since then, I rarely focus on aiming at all. Muscle memory is not a natural talent, its learned. Although topics like this are great for discussion, they should not take the place of a good coach either.


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## BigBuckDown!

I never learned how to hold steady, I picked up a bow and started shooting. Over time, I became steadier and steadier through practice. THEN, I realized that I could be better if I changed a few things like draw length, release, and grip. Now I shoot very well with a nice little pin float that is acceptable to me. I am striving to get better but I am at the place that I need to practice practice practice to hone the little things that will make me better. I am naturally good at it, but practice is what separates me from a pro. 

I cannot teach others well on how to shoot because the natural ability I just have is not the same for everyone. You have to be honest with yourself about your abilities but at the same time reach for the stars. I set attainable goals for myself and I DO get better.


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## xavier102772

Not sure how this topic went off onto laser pointers. Totally off topic and I'm not sure useful at all. Your video was useful though. 

Honestly, I can see three things that are huge issues with your shot from your video. IMHO

1. Your thumb is twitching like crazy. That can't be good for a steady hold.
2. When your release goes off, it doesn't seem to just go off at all. It looks like you're punching/yanking it off to the side.
3. There is no follow through with your release hand. If there is no follow through, I can't imagine you are using much if any back tension or pulling through of your shot. It is your back and the increasing tension in your draw side that holds you steady and on target (aiming). So, unless you do that, you will always struggle with steady aim and never really get to a point where the dot/circle appears not to move.



EPLC said:


> Here's yesterday, as dismal as it was.


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## nestly

xavier102772 said:


> Not sure how this topic went off onto laser pointers. Totally off topic and I'm not sure useful at all....


In the original post, there was a question (and a challenge), with the premise being that "group 1" holds steadier than "group 2". In many cases I believe archers overstate their ability to "hold steady". Information is only useful when it's accurate, and a camera or laser attached to the bow allows a 3rd party to verify the degree of accuracy with which an archer describes their ability to "hold steady".


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## subconsciously

nestly said:


> In the original post, there was a question (and a challenge), with the premise being that "group 1" holds steadier than "group 2". In many cases I believe archers overstate their ability to "hold steady". Information is only useful when it's accurate, and a camera or laser attached to the bow allows a 3rd party to verify the degree of accuracy with which an archer describes their ability to "hold steady".


Want to know how steady a person holds - look at their X count. Other than that it really does not matter.


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## nestly

subconsciously said:


> Want to know how steady a person holds - look at their X count. Other than that it really does not matter.


Holding and scoring are not necessarily synonymous. Lasers such as those used in this topic can be had for about the price of a meal at a fast food restaurant, and virtually everyone has a video camera and/or a cell phone capable of taking video, so there's not much prohibiting the "high X count" shooters here from proving that statement incorrect... if in fact they could.


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## EPLC

subconsciously said:


> Want to know how steady a person holds - look at their X count. Other than that it really does not matter.


Seeing is believing...


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## sharkred7

I don't think lazers are all that helpful to prove any point. Where do you mount the lazer? To me it would seem the most accurate spot would be the riser right above the arrow. If you put it on the stab or any where away from the arrow/hand placement movement will be exaggerated. I am a high Xcount shooter and my dot does not stay inside the x all the time. I would say that my group is roughly half the size of my of my pin movement. That is why you focus on the target and not the pin. 

If you watch the greatest archers today shoot in high pressure situations you will see a lot of movement......at the stabilizer, the cams,etc. If you look at the arrow point there is almost no visible movement. All the stuff we put on our bows is designed to take out as much human involvement as possible. That is how you shoot inside your float. You are looking at your pin and calling that your float. Put your laser on the arrow and I will bet your float more closely mimics your shot placement. 

These are theories that I believe to be pretty accurate but I have yet to test them. I have to get to work right now but I have some other input that may be useful and will check back when I can to see what others think and to discuss theses thoughts.

John


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## subconsciously

Well, when we shoot a tournament or practice for that matter are we looking at laser steadiness or x count?

Back in the early nineties I was in one of Bernies Pellerites coaching schools. We all shot with the laser attached. We're any of us surprised that the guy that held the best in the middle was also state champ? No. 

As a whole you can be the steadiest person with a laser on your bow - but if you ain't go the full package - you have accomplished naught.


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## montigre

I fully agree with you on this, John and it represents the primary reason I prefer to evaluate the patterns left on the target by the arrows over a laser placed on some random axis away from the bow's center of gravity. 

While I have been chastised on here by some for making this statement in the past, I will repeat it again to back up my thoughts on the matter of using lasers and over-studying the size of one's float.....the only time I actually "see" my float is when I am concentrating on it for a specific purpose, otherwise, I am looking at the spot I wish to hit and whatever the pin (or in my case, circle) is doing is completely in the background. I know it is there and I know it is moving, but if my focus remains on the middle and I do my part, that is where my arrow will hit. 

With practice, the groups will slowly tighten which means the float is reciprocally shrinking.... 

I am interested to read what else you have to say on this and like matters.


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## thunderbolt

montigre said:


> I fully agree with you on this, John and it represents the primary reason I prefer to evaluate the patterns left on the target by the arrows over a laser placed on some random axis away from the bow's center of gravity.
> 
> While I have been chastised on here by some for making this statement in the past, I will repeat it again to back up my thoughts on the matter of using lasers and over-studying the size of one's float.....the only time I actually "see" my float is when I am concentrating on it for a specific purpose, otherwise, I am looking at the spot I wish to hit and whatever the pin (or in my case, circle) is doing is completely in the background. * I know it is there and I know it is moving, but if my focus remains on the middle and I do my part, that is where my arrow will hit. *
> 
> With practice, the groups will slowly tighten which means the float is reciprocally shrinking....
> 
> I am interested to read what else you have to say on this and like matters.


Exactly! How many times has the dot or circle not been in the middle when the shot breaks, but the arrow is dead center...As long as your float isn't being forced, it's always moving back towards the center...that's why the phrase shooting inside your float


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## nestly

sharkred7 said:


> I don't think lazers are all that helpful to prove any point. Where do you mount the lazer? To me it would seem the most accurate spot would be the riser right above the arrow. If you put it on the stab or any where away from the arrow/hand placement movement will be exaggerated.


Pretty sure that's incorrect. A laser securely mounted to the riser would show the same amount of movement at the target regardless of where it was mounted on the riser. If multiple lasers were mounted on the bow, they would all move in unison and would all indicate exactly the same amount of movement. The only exception would be rotational movement, (ie the plumbness of the bow as indicated by the scope bubble) If the bubble was swinging back and forth from left to right during the aiming process, the lasers would indicate more left/right movement the farther they are from the bow hand.




sharkred7 said:


> I am a high Xcount shooter and my dot does not stay inside the x all the time. I would say that my group is roughly half the size of my of my pin movement. That is why you focus on the target and not the pin.


That has been the point I've been trying to make. It's "common knowledge" that it is possible to score better than you can hold, even though some argue that you can't hit inside the X if your pin is not inside the X when the shot breaks. To your point, if the archers focus is on the target, they are probably not fully aware of the absolute movement of the bow/scope/pin.





sharkred7 said:


> If you watch the greatest archers today shoot in high pressure situations you will see a lot of movement......at the stabilizer, the cams,etc. If you look at the arrow point there is almost no visible movement. All the stuff we put on our bows is designed to take out as much human involvement as possible. That is how you shoot inside your float. You are looking at your pin and calling that your float. Put your laser on the arrow and I will bet your float more closely mimics your shot placement.


I don't necessarily agree with those observations, but I also haven't done any testing yet to refute them.



sharkred7 said:


> These are theories that I believe to be pretty accurate but I have yet to test them. I have to get to work right now but I have some other input that may be useful and will check back when I can to see what others think and to discuss theses thoughts.
> 
> John


I'm always interested in the more technical aspects of archery, even if they don't directly translate into scoring higher.


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## Icarus7n

The point from the beginning was to prove that everyone floats, wasn't it? i thought it was to challenge the archers who claim floatless/motionless to put on a laser so the rest of us who do float/move could see the difference, if there is any to begin with.


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## cbrunson

I don't believe anyone has said you can't hit an X with perceivable movement. Only that near zero visible movement is possible. 

This is kinda what it looks like on paper. Is it possible to do every time? I don't know, still working on it. Is it worth the effort? You bet it is.


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## Lazarus

cbrunson said:


> I don't believe anyone has said you can't hit an X with perceivable movement. Only that near zero visible movement is possible.
> 
> This is kinda what it looks like on paper. Is it possible to do every time? I don't know, still working on it. Is it worth the effort? You bet it is.


Funny. I don't believe I have ever once heard a top shooter say; (and I'm going to use the hideous term only for example purposes,) "You know, my "float" was all over the place today but I just ate the middle out of the target." 

I have on the other hand heard a winning shooter say on multiple occasions; "I was solid as a rock today, I just ate the middle out of the target." :wave3:

That is all.


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## nestly

Icarus7n said:


> The point from the beginning was to prove that everyone floats, wasn't it? i thought it was to challenge the archers who claim floatless/motionless to put on a laser so the rest of us who do float/move could see the difference, if there is any to begin with.


From my perspective "float" and "lasers" became part of the discussion because the "challenge" to describe how to "hold the pin in the middle" was not fulfilled, and even if it had been, how well someone can "hold in the middle" is subjective and open to the interpretation of the person aiming the bow. 

It's like someone that claims they can run really "fast" but never actually raced against anyone else, or a clock. In absolute terms, lasers remove the mystery about what "steady" really means. I think sharkredZ finally provided the type of feedback that moves the discussion forward, stating that his groups are roughly half the size of his pin movement. IMO, that's a lot more valuable than someone that simply says you have to hold in the "middle" to hit the "middle" which implies that if you don't have the ability to "hold" in the "middle", your future as a competitive archer is bleak.


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## erdman41

Mount the laser three different places on the bow and you'll get three different results.

Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk


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## subconsciously

No lasers involved. Just guys that are holding in the middle and putting it behind the pin. Explaining how to hold steady beyond what we already understand about the mechanics is trying to explain how a banana tastes.


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## cbrunson

subconsciously said:


> No lasers involved. Just guys that are holding in the middle and putting it behind the pin. Explaining how to hold steady beyond what we already understand about the mechanics is trying to explain how a banana tastes


And it's not something you just go out and do. You have to find it, not force it.


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## nestly

erdman41 said:


> Mount the laser three different places on the bow and you'll get three different results.


That is incorrect. Using a table fork as and example, the distance between the tips of the forks are a constant distance and that distance doesn't change as the fork is moved or rotated. If you were to extended the length of the prongs to a distance of 20 yards, when the fork is moved or rotated, the prongs on the outside don't move more or less than the middle fork, they all move together at the same rate. Same thing applies to a laser attached to a bow riser, each laser is just an extension of the riser, just as each prong on a fork is an extension of the fork, and the distance between the tip of each prong doesn't change as the "fork" is moved or rotated based on the prongs relative distance from the center of the fork. 

Any two lasers mounted anywhere on a bow riser and pointed at a target will move exactly the same distance from their original position as the bow is moved up/down, or left/right... doesn't matter if the bow is mounted in a fixture, or held in the hand. The exception (as noted previously) is rotation/cant, and I would hope no one is going to suggest that target archers have a significant fluctuation in cant during shot execution.

demo --> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U0XMKgDrL6g


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## subconsciously

Using the archers pin which is set perfectly to the alignment of the arrow providing there is no application of torque to the riser - the archers arrow will land behind the pin upon execution. Provided there is no external forces applied to the string upon release to obstruct the natural path of the string. 

Thus - a laser mounted to your bow means absolutely nothing.


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## cbrunson

nestly said:


> That is incorrect. Using a table fork as and example, the distance between the tips of the forks are a constant distance and that distance doesn't change as the fork is moved or rotated. If you were to extended the length of the prongs to a distance of 20 yards, when the fork is moved or rotated, the prongs on the outside don't move more or less than the middle fork, they all move together at the same rate. Same thing applies to a laser attached to a bow riser, each laser is just an extension of the riser, just as each prong on a fork is an extension of the fork, and the distance between the tip of each prong doesn't change as the "fork" is moved or rotated based on the prongs relative distance from the center of the fork.
> 
> Any two lasers mounted anywhere on a bow riser and pointed at a target will move exactly the same distance from their original position as the bow is moved up/down, or left/right... doesn't matter if the bow is mounted in a fixture, or held in the hand. The exception (as noted previously) is rotation/cant, and I would hope no one is going to suggest that target archers have a significant fluctuation in cant during shot execution.


I think you didn't quite understand what Sharkred7 was saying. The only way the laser pointer will show true movement, is if it is sitting on the arrow. The further you get away from the point where the arrow sits on the rest in any direction, the more the movement is amplified. Thus Erdman41's statement of three different spots giving three different results.

Are you familiar with torque tuning?


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## grantmac

The Difference between a bow and other projectile launchers is that the barrel (arrow) is not rigidly fixed to the sighting system. I believe that a laser mounted to the bow and another on the arrow would make for a very interesting visual display and once my move is sorted out I intend on giving it a go.

Grant


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## nestly

cbrunson said:


> I think you didn't quite understand what Sharkred7 was saying. The only way the laser pointer will show true movement, is if it is sitting on the arrow. The further you get away from the point where the arrow sits on the rest in any direction, the more the movement is amplified. Thus Erdman41's statement of three different spots giving three different results.
> 
> Are you familiar with torque tuning?


Perhaps there is a misunderstanding, but on at least a few points, there's a genuine disagreement about the physics involved. A laser mounted to the riser will indicate the same amount of movement at the target as will be seen through the sights. Both the sight and the laser are rigidly mounted to the riser, so it cannot be otherwise. The projection of the laser on the target is absolute, and irrefutable, but what the archer sees while aiming is subjective. It's impossible to focus on the dot and the target at the same time, so there is undoubtedly more movement that what the archer perceives. IMO, the movement of the sight and the movement of the laser are perfectly synchronized and in direct proportion to each other. That's the reason I can not see the "bouncing" laser on the target, If the laser dips "low' on the target, it can only be because my riser dipped, if the riser dipped, then so did my scope dot since they're mounted rigidly together. Both move together, and at the same rate. The laser always stays "behind" my scope dot. I think it would be more easy to demonstrate if someone could mount an inline camera to their scope the way cameras can be mounted to rifle scopes. If that could be done, then it wouldn't be subjective, we could witness in slow motion that the dot/crosshairs in a scope would always be "pointed" exactly where the laser is pointed. Again, both are rigidly attached to the riser, so when one moves, so does the other, whether we perceive it during the process of aiming is an entirely different question.

As for where the laser is mounted on the riser, it simply does not matter. A laser attached to the riser at approximately the level of the hand/arrow and another laser mounted to the riser near the limb pocket and aimed so they both project their beam at the the same point on the target will always impact the target at the same point regardless of how much the bow is moving. It's no different than if you welded two 60 foot long trusses to the front of the riser one in the "middle" and one at the "end". If you move the riser the trusses are welded to, both trusses move in unison, and exactly the same amount.

As for the arrow mounted laser, I already have one one order, so that test will happen once it arrives. My prediction is that when used simultaneously, the arrow mounted laser will "bounce" significantly more in the vertical direction compared to the riser mounted laser because of the nature of a blade type arrow rest. I expect I will have to replace it with a drop-away to get an accurate indication of arrow movement vs sight/riser movement in the vertical direction. In the horizontal direction, I expect the arrow mounted laser to show slightly less movement (or at least a slower frequency) compared to the riser mounted laser because the arrow rest is basically above the throat of the grip which should more closely reflect movement in my hand/wrist instead of showing all the "wobble" in the riser.


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## cbrunson

nestly said:


> what the archer sees while aiming is subjective.


You bet it is, and that is all that matters unless you see a motionless dot, but your arrows aren't hitting behind it. If you want to see a lot of movement and you are comfortable with it, by all means....

When it's moving around a lot, like your videos show, you will miss some, like you did. When it's not moving around all willy-nilly, you don't miss the X...... provided it was still in the middle when the shot broke. :lol:


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## nestly

subconsciously said:


> Using the archers pin which is set perfectly to the alignment of the arrow providing there is no application of torque to the riser - the archers arrow will land behind the pin upon execution. Provided there is no external forces applied to the string upon release to obstruct the natural path of the string.
> 
> Thus - a laser mounted to your bow means absolutely nothing.


In no way did I ever suggest that a laser projected onto the target can or should be used as an indication of where the arrow will land, if that's what you're getting at? This topic is and has been about how to "hold the pin in the middle". Problem is, no one seems capable of defining how big the "middle" really is. Despite all objections, a laser (or camera) mounted to the bow riser is an accurate measurement of how precisely someone/anyone can hold their bow "on target" while aiming and executing a shot, and that's all it is. If you feel there's absolutely nothing to be learned by attaching a laser to a bow, feel free not to participate, but the OP clearly feels differently, as do I.


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## erdman41

Mount one right in front of the grip and one on the end of a 30" stabilizer. You'll see what I'm talking about in post #144.

Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk


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## redman

View attachment 3871817
. Good day at range shooting with back tension with thumb release and new bow


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## nestly

erdman41 said:


> Mount one right in front of the grip and one on the end of a 30" stabilizer. You'll see what I'm talking about in post #144.


If you screwed an absolutely rigid 59-1/2 foot long stabilizer into a bow so the end was only 6" from the target, assuming you could hold it up enough to aim, the stabilizer and a riser mounted laser would indicate the same amount of movement on the target. Both are merely extensions of the riser.

Similarly, if my sight bar was 59-1/2 feet long, the laser beam would still be "behind" the scope dot the entire time I'm aiming.


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## SonnyThomas

redman said:


> Good day at range shooting with back tension with thumb release and new bow


Nice. Back tension with a thumb release is so much easier for me than when using a hinge.


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## sharkred7

One more thing I would like to add to this discussion is hold vs execution. I can hold rock solid steady if I want, with almost no perceived movement to a bystander, BUT I will not score well. Because for me when I am executing a dynamic, perfect shot process my pin will move more but my shots will bury in the middle. I'm not talking about my pin bouncing all over the target, just more visible movement. If my pin is sitting rock steady never leaving the baby X, I AM NOT EXECUTING MY shot. 

I have done some study on this the last couple days and some practical application (that is how I determined I shoot about half the size of my "float")

My hold NEVER leaves the 5 ring, my pin stays roughly half way between the X ring and the middle of the 5. But it spends a lot of time in the middle because of that float size. I also believe if I execute a good shot it will hit the middle with that float because your mind is always trying to center the pin, there fore your pin theoretically is always moving towards the center.

While this is all well and good for me, it still has not answered the OP question of HOW to improve your hold. Then when you can perfect the hold, the bigger problem becomes executing a solid shot within that float.

So telling people to let it float and shoot your shot is great advice, except that if some one has a HUGE float they will not score as well as some one that has a smaller float. So 2 things need to happen to become the group a, you need to work on improving your float by trying different things like:

Get a coach or video yourself and document.

Change draw length, draw weight, holding weight.

Work with stabilization.

Try different sighting points. Scott and I have totally different approaches with very similar results. He likes a large dot, I like a fiber. He took one look at my sight tonight and said, "no way I could ever shoot that". You have to have something calming and comfortable to you.

Move your peep height/size.

Different grips (both on the bow and HOW you grip) Soft hands WILL give you a better hold. Minimize as many small muscle groups as possible.

I'm sure there is more that I am missing and some other more knowledgable people can fill in.

Sorry for the long read.

John


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## nestly

Great post! I especially appreciate your description of how much movement you perceive in a manner that probably anyone familiar with the target face(s) can relate to.


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## nochance

sharkred7 said:


> So telling people to let it float and shoot your shot is great advice, except that if some one has a HUGE float they will not score as well as some one that has a smaller float. So 2 things need to happen to become the group a, you need to work on improving your float by trying different things like:
> 
> Get a coach or video yourself and document.
> 
> Change draw length, draw weight, holding weight.
> 
> Work with stabilization.
> 
> Try different sighting points. Scott and I have totally different approaches with very similar results. He likes a large dot, I like a fiber. He took one look at my sight tonight and said, "no way I could ever shoot that". You have to have something calming and comfortable to you.
> 
> Move your peep height/size.
> 
> Different grips (both on the bow and HOW you grip) Soft hands WILL give you a better hold. Minimize as many small muscle groups as possible.
> 
> I'm sure there is more that I am missing and some other more knowledgable people can fill in.
> 
> John


Good post!
These are the things i believe people often shortcut. It can take hours\days weeks etc. Just got into freestyle coming from a hunter set up. New Elite Victory. Spent the last couple months tweaking stabilzer weights\positions,draw length, dot size on the scope, mag of the scope,extension of the sight from the bow, release execution etc etc. The dividends are starting to pay off with several personal bests in the past couple weeks. Its not something that happens overnight.


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## Ned250

sharkred7 said:


> One more thing I would like to add to this discussion is hold vs execution. I can hold rock solid steady if I want, with almost no perceived movement to a bystander, BUT I will not score well. Because for me when I am executing a dynamic, perfect shot process my pin will move more but my shots will bury in the middle. I'm not talking about my pin bouncing all over the target, just more visible movement. If my pin is sitting rock steady never leaving the baby X, I AM NOT EXECUTING MY shot.
> 
> I have done some study on this the last couple days and some practical application (that is how I determined I shoot about half the size of my "float")
> 
> My hold NEVER leaves the 5 ring, my pin stays roughly half way between the X ring and the middle of the 5. But it spends a lot of time in the middle because of that float size. I also believe if I execute a good shot it will hit the middle with that float because your mind is always trying to center the pin, there fore your pin theoretically is always moving towards the center.
> 
> While this is all well and good for me, it still has not answered the OP question of HOW to improve your hold. Then when you can perfect the hold, the bigger problem becomes executing a solid shot within that float.
> 
> So telling people to let it float and shoot your shot is great advice, except that if some one has a HUGE float they will not score as well as some one that has a smaller float. So 2 things need to happen to become the group a, you need to work on improving your float by trying different things like:
> 
> Get a coach or video yourself and document.
> 
> Change draw length, draw weight, holding weight.
> 
> Work with stabilization.
> 
> Try different sighting points. Scott and I have totally different approaches with very similar results. He likes a large dot, I like a fiber. He took one look at my sight tonight and said, "no way I could ever shoot that". You have to have something calming and comfortable to you.
> 
> Move your peep height/size.
> 
> Different grips (both on the bow and HOW you grip) Soft hands WILL give you a better hold. Minimize as many small muscle groups as possible.
> 
> I'm sure there is more that I am missing and some other more knowledgable people can fill in.
> 
> Sorry for the long read.
> 
> John


Fantastic post. Bravo, John!!


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## Ned250

Piggy backing on sharkred's post...a post here hasn't excited me this much in a long time! You said what I've felt forever. 

I think too many people focus soooo much energy on having that hooter shooter hold that they forego the more important aspect of the shot. Yes, having the ability to hold relatively still is an important aspect of hitting the X, but I think group-think has allowed holding steady to build up into this mythical creature. 

Using the hooter shooter as the perfect example of "same hole" performance.... Everyone thinks about the hooter shooter and sees the grip holding the bow perfectly still. But how many think about the back end?

Putting the arrow in the middle is a marriage of shot execution and hold as John points out. If you can't find a shot execution that matches your hold, you're hosed. I've worked hard this year on finding that marriage between the two and have found that for me, execution is absolutely critical and dare I say more important (than hold).....

I've struggled for years with settling in and seeing that beautiful sight picture. I couldn't draw on a piece of paper a better centered dot. But I'd start to execute and more times than not it all went to crap. So this indoor season I've worked on figuring out why that happens and I've found that my shot execution just wasn't the right fit. Over the past 2 months I've been trying different approaches and have found a better blend of hold and execution. The most interesting thing - my dot has settled down as my execution has evolved. They both feed each other, IMO. 

This might turn into a chicken or the egg debate, but this is what I've learned in my personal experience. It's been a frustrating but really fun and eye opening indoor season.


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## cbrunson

Ned250 said:


> The most interesting thing - my dot has settled down as my execution has evolved. They both feed each other, IMO.


As I've improved over the last couple years, I've found this back and forth thing is true. If you can get it to hold perfectly still, but can't execute without it going crazy, then you have to figure out the acceptable balance between the two, to keep from going nuts. But that doesn't mean you stop seeking improvement on both ends. 

I think a lot of what gets lost in translation here is people expecting that perfect shot 100% of the time. If you normally drill baby Xs with your accepted approach, and know exactly why you missed when you do, then you know what you need to work on without trying to rewrite your process. No matter what your hold looks like. 

I personally run a huge dot indoors, that nearly fills the yellow/white. As long as I keep that thin halo through the shot execution, it is an X every time. Of course there are things that keep it from staying there, but I am working to fix those things, not changing the other ones that were perfect to find a happy medium for all shots. 

I'm not saying John's approach is wrong, just different than mine. He is an outstanding shooter, and a great guy. What this and other debates here boil down to is not which is the most important thing to work on, but rather identifying what you would benefit the most from in trying to improve in YOUR game. We all have different mental approaches to things. I can understand someone trying to shoot the way I do developing severe target panic. That's also why a lot of people can't shoot buttons. I've run into hiccups myself lately, which is why I've changed my practice routine to slow down my shot execution.

Also, great job John with describing the muscle control. That one thing is the most important, and most difficult to learn. I believe 100% of unwanted movement comes from unnecessary muscle tension. I think I remember a long winded post a while back that addressed that very issue.


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## Ned250

cbrunson said:


> What this and other debates here boil down to is not which is the most important thing to work on, but rather identifying what you would benefit the most from in trying to improve in YOUR game.


Totally agree. I just think we see so many of these sorts of threads that everyone gets so fixated on a rock steady hold as the be-all/end-all of archery. I wish it was that easy.


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## nestly

Seems we've finally come full circle and covered the whole gamut. Started out with a question about "holding in the middle", and many of the initial responses suggested that while importance, some movement outside the highest scoring areas was inevitable, and also acceptable, then it turned more toward if you can't "hold in the middle" you can't "hit in the middle". Glad to see it didn't die there, and now we've swung back around to a more realistic perspective about what it really takes to score well.


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## erdman41

sharkred7 said:


> Try different sighting points. Scott and I have totally different approaches with very similar results. He likes a large dot, I like a fiber. He took one look at my sight tonight and said, "no way I could ever shoot that". You have to have something calming and comfortable to
> John


I get the hebie gebies just thinking about that scope.

John is holding steadier than what his sight picture is showing him. His description of his sight picture and what his targets look like back that up. He is ok with seeing that and not bothered by it.

My sight picture is steadier than what I'm actually holding. Helps me relax which I feel helps me hold better.

Two different approaches both work for each person but probably not for the other. 


Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk


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## sharkred7

I'm not saying John's approach is wrong, just different than mine. He is an outstanding shooter, and a great guy. What this and other debates here boil down to is not which is the most important thing to work on, but rather identifying what you would benefit the most from in trying to improve in YOUR game. We all have different mental approaches to things. I can understand someone trying to shoot the way I do developing severe target panic. That's also why a lot of people can't shoot buttons. I've run into hiccups myself lately, which is why I've changed my practice routine to slow down my shot execution.

Exactly! Keep striving for what ever you think will improve your game. I am not above trying some of the things others do that work for them. As my hold improves maybe I would benefit from a larger dot and still be able to execute my shot. I have break coming up after the state 25 m where I am going to be trasitioning from indoors to field. that is when I will try some of these suggestions. I am not above changing to improve, I don't shoot perfect score every time I go out so there is room to improve. I have to find it.


John is holding steadier than what his sight picture is showing him. His description of his sight picture and what his targets look like back that up. He is ok with seeing that and not bothered by it.

My sight picture is steadier than what I'm actually holding. Helps me relax which I feel helps me hold better.

Two different approaches both work for each person but probably not for the other.



Once again it comes down to what makes you comfortable and allows you to execute the best shot with the best hold. And as Cbrunson said if you are happy shooting a happy medium between hold and execution but not shooting the scores you want, then you try to improve one or the other to see what helps YOU become the best you can be. If you take a look at nationals (for those lucky enough to go) at every ones bows in the rack, I challenge you to find any two alike. This is a very individualized sport with a very individualized process for every one. 

Ideally, you start with the basics and work from there, continually fine tuning your game.

Hope this makes sense and helps at least one person

John


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## cbrunson

Ned250 said:


> Totally agree. I just think we see so many of these sorts of threads that everyone gets so fixated on a rock steady hold as the be-all/end-all of archery. I wish it was that easy.


I bet everyone has that one thing that makes or breaks a good game for them. When conversations about what is most important come up, you can bet that one issue is going to be emphasized by the individual. There's nothing wrong with that. It's good for anyone else that has recognized the same thing in their own shooting. It's also easy to see why someone who struggles with something different, may not agree on the importance.

My only suggestion is, don't give up on either end. Anyone not shooting perfect scores should be looking for improvement rather than finding ways to justify imperfection, and certainly not trying to sell that justification to others. Just my opinion of course.


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## EPLC

montigre said:


> I fully agree with you on this, John and it represents the primary reason I prefer to evaluate the patterns left on the target by the arrows over a laser placed on some random axis away from the bow's center of gravity.
> 
> While I have been chastised on here by some for making this statement in the past, I will repeat it again to back up my thoughts on the matter of using lasers and over-studying the size of one's float.....the only time I actually "see" my float is when I am concentrating on it for a specific purpose, otherwise, I am looking at the spot I wish to hit and whatever the pin (or in my case, circle) is doing is completely in the background. I know it is there and I know it is moving, but if my focus remains on the middle and I do my part, that is where my arrow will hit.
> 
> With practice, the groups will slowly tighten which means the float is reciprocally shrinking....
> 
> I am interested to read what else you have to say on this and like matters.


You mentioned using a circle. When using a dot it is impossible to focus on the target "AND" hold exactly in the middle. Of course if you have x-ray vision and a big S on you chest it would be possible.


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## nochance

EPLC said:


> You mentioned using a circle. When using a dot it is impossible to focus on the target "AND" hold exactly in the middle. Of course if you have x-ray vision and a big S on you chest it would be possible.


But you can focus on the target, not the x and hold that dot centered in the visible yellow, white or whichever target you are shooting.


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## EPLC

nochance said:


> But you can focus on the target, not the x and hold that dot centered in the visible yellow, white or whichever target you are shooting.


My point is that you cannot focus on the spot you are intending to hit with a dot in the way. If you put your bow in a shooting machine where there is no movement this becomes obvious. When I use my shooter I center the pin to aim. I "have" to concentrate on the pin to do this. Yes, the target is visible, but it is the pin that is placed on center. While everyone is wired differently, I believe this notion of focusing strictly on the target when using a pin/dot can be a major difficulty for some. The tendency would be to move the pin out of the way to see the target. For me, going to a very large dot smoothed things out for a while, now I find myself trying to look around that big dot.


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## cbrunson

EPLC said:


> My point is that you cannot focus on the spot you are intending to hit with a dot in the way.


Paul..... Many, many, many people use a dot very successfully, including the guy you've quoted in your signature. While it may not work for you, it does work very well for others. Try instead of focusing on one or the other, just looking. Look at the picture rather than the details.


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## SonnyThomas

E, you remember this? Target centered, picture made. Just the opposite, dot centered to target, picture made.


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## EPLC

cbrunson said:


> Paul..... Many, many, many people use a dot very successfully, including the guy you've quoted in your signature. While it may not work for you, it does work very well for others. Try instead of focusing on one or the other, just looking. Look at the picture rather than the details.


You're reading more into what I said than what I said. I didn't say it doesn't work, I said you can't see the spot you are intending to hit with the dot in the way. Some can deal with this, some can't. Sight picture comfort is a very individual thing. I am one that struggles with finding one that I am truly comfortable with.


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## cbrunson

EPLC said:


> You're reading more into what I said than what I said. I didn't say it doesn't work, I said you can't see the spot you are intending to hit with the dot in the way. Some can deal with this, some can't. Sight picture comfort is a very individual thing. I am one that struggles with finding one that I am truly comfortable with.


What I am suggesting is that you stop trying to focus on the spot down range and look at the whole sight picture. Learn to do that with whatever you choose as a sight reference and you will be more comfortable. To line up three points at different distances, it's much easier if you don't focus hard on any one of them individually. You'll also see less movement.


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## redwhiteblue

I used to have had some difficulty holding the pin steady on target, but then I used a tactic someone taught me back when I was in the Army.

From any unsupported firing position (which defines archers), the muscles that control your fine-motor coordination are the same muscles responsible for holding your pin steady (these are not the same muscles used to draw your bow). These fine-motor muscle fibers are tiny, lack strength/endurance, and fatigue quickly. That's why your pin is steadier the first few seconds, but then it quickly gets harder and harder to hold steady.

To eliminate any unnecessary complication in muscle coordination, train your body to only move your sight pin up, down, left, or right... never diagonal. Draw your bow, and land the pin just to the left of your target, then slowly sweep right until you're right on it. Quickly adjust up/down, exhale, and slowly squeeze the trigger during your natural breathing pause. If you start bouncing the pin again, reset and start over (but stay at full draw). Try not to hold your pin on target more than 3-4 seconds without squeezing. If you don't have a good shot, reset (but keep full draw), and sweep again. If you can't comfortably do this reset procedure while at full draw, your draw weight is too heavy, back the poundage down. 

It may seem a little complicated, but it's a simplified process, which when you get used to it, is extremely repeatable. You will develop muscle memory from this and you'll get better and better at it.


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## duc

cbrunson said:


> What I am suggesting is that you stop trying to focus on the spot down range and look at the whole sight picture. Learn to do that with whatever you choose as a sight reference and you will be more comfortable. To line up three points at different distances, it's much easier if you don't focus hard on any one of them individually. You'll also see less movement.


Yep. And you can LEARN to do this by shooting without a dot or circle. You PRACTICE this not for two hours, two days or two weeks. Try TWO MONTHS. This way you will LEARN to look at what your shooting at. You will LEARN to relax and you will LEARN to centre the target. Make a circle with your finger and thumb and look at something in the distance. YOUR BRAIN AUTOMATICALLY CENTRES WHAT YOU ARE LOOKING AT. You are so hung up on movement and sight picture that you have literally lost the picture. I feel you are making excuses and are to stubborn to do this. Lot of good info here seems to be going in one ear and out of the other. Sounds harsh I know but there is no other way of saying it.


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## montigre

cbrunson said:


> What I am suggesting is that you stop trying to focus on the spot down range and look at the whole sight picture. Learn to do that with whatever you choose as a sight reference and you will be more comfortable. To line up three points at different distances, it's much easier if you don't focus hard on any one of them individually. You'll also see less movement.


^^^ This. It is very much like looking through the viewfinder of a camera. You see the subject you wish to photograph, but you also see what is in the background and you see your relationship to these things. This is how a photograph is composed to get the best shot. The same is true for aiming in archery, you see the target, you see the reticule, and you see your placement in relationship to these things, and you make a good shot, if you do your part. When done like this there really is very little perceived motion because that is not what you're focusing on. 

This can be broadened further to include one's shot process, but that is a discussion for another thread and another time.


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## EPLC

montigre said:


> ^^^ This. It is very much like looking through the viewfinder of a camera. You see the subject you wish to photograph, but you also see what is in the background and you see your relationship to these things. This is how a photograph is composed to get the best shot. The same is true for aiming in archery, you see the target, you see the reticule, and you see your placement in relationship to these things, and you make a good shot, if you do your part. When done like this there really is very little perceived motion because that is not what you're focusing on.
> 
> This can be broadened further to include one's shot process, but that is a discussion for another thread and another time.


The problem is depth of field. A small peep hole helps this but darkens the field of view. With a larger peep the target becomes less in focus than the dot. With a clarifier this all reverses.


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## montigre

Try using a verifier instead. This will sharpen your target and fuzz the reticule a bit. Should produce a better overall sight picture if you really need to use an extra lens in your peep. Best would be to go without it if your eyesight will allow.


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## EPLC

Currently I'm not using a lens in my peep but we seem to be going down a bunny trail. I don't disagree with the Brunson statement. My whole point was that trying to focus on the downrange target with a dot in the way is an impossible task. To be able to focus on the entire sight picture instead of any one aspect makes sense. But just making sense doesn't make it work. Depth of view, as mentioned, has to be right in order for this to work. I have very good depth perception which may complicate the issue. A very good local shooter here is blind in one eye. I assume his flat field of view may be helpful. I know I have less trouble outdoors looking at the big picture.


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## SonnyThomas

Lost me E, Gail. Clarifiers clean up the target. Verifiers clean up the pin and don't work well with a lens.


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## SonnyThomas

redwhiteblue said:


> I used to have had some difficulty holding the pin steady on target, but then I used a tactic someone taught me back when I was in the Army.
> 
> From any unsupported firing position (which defines archers), the muscles that control your fine-motor coordination are the same muscles responsible for holding your pin steady (these are not the same muscles used to draw your bow). These fine-motor muscle fibers are tiny, lack strength/endurance, and fatigue quickly. That's why your pin is steadier the first few seconds, but then it quickly gets harder and harder to hold steady.
> 
> To eliminate any unnecessary complication in muscle coordination, train your body to only move your sight pin up, down, left, or right... never diagonal. Draw your bow, and land the pin just to the left of your target, then slowly sweep right until you're right on it. Quickly adjust up/down, exhale, and slowly squeeze the trigger during your natural breathing pause. If you start bouncing the pin again, reset and start over (but stay at full draw). Try not to hold your pin on target more than 3-4 seconds without squeezing. If you don't have a good shot, reset (but keep full draw), and sweep again. If you can't comfortably do this reset procedure while at full draw, your draw weight is too heavy, back the poundage down.
> 
> It may seem a little complicated, but it's a simplified process, which when you get used to it, is extremely repeatable. You will develop muscle memory from this and you'll get better and better at it.


Bench rested rifles, only the heart beat shaking up the picture (24X scope will do that). With pistols I shot some of my finest, standing, using a come from the bottom up manner. Didn't make any difference whether iron sights or scope.


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## EPLC

*Question?*

Can you see the X?


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## nochance

More importantly could you hold steady using that setup and hit the x? I'd bet yes for many, maybe no for others. Even the smallest of pins will cover part of the X when centered.


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## nestly

EPLC said:


> Can you see the X?


No, but I can certainly see the rest of the target well enough to know how well the sight and the target are aligned.

I understand your point(s), but there is no magic bullet. There is no reason that someone "can't" use that type of setup and hit the "X" consistently. Using that setup, an archer could still aim by "focussing" on the target, or "focussing" on the pin, or "focussing" on both.


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## EPLC

nochance said:


> More importantly could you hold steady using that setup and hit the x? I'd bet yes for many, maybe no for others. Even the smallest of pins will cover part of the X when centered.





nestly said:


> No, but I can certainly see the rest of the target well enough to know how well the sight and the target are aligned.
> 
> I understand your point(s), but there is no magic bullet. There is no reason that someone "can't" use that type of setup and hit the "X" consistently. Using that setup, an archer could still aim by "focussing" on the target, or "focussing" on the pin, or "focussing" on both.


Agreed, there is no one size fits all solution. This was directly aimed at those that proclaim that you have to burn a hole in the X when aiming. As this little demo points out, that can't happen. Regardless of the size of the pin, it blocks out what you are trying to hit. When I shoot a rifle I line up the sight and center; when I have my bow in a shooter I line up the sight and center. Why would I alter this process when shooting? Answer: I don't. This notion of staring at the X has been a big misconception of mine for ever since I can remember. Probably as bad as not using any hand manipulation shooting a hinge.


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## SonnyThomas

EPLC said:


> Can you see the X?


Neither picture, but the 1st is like what I used. Cover white and execute - dead X or dang close.
2nd picture sucks 

Back to 1st picture, I once used a dot that covered the white dividing line of the 4 and collected some diet cokes  Everyone said the dot was too big to hit anything.


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## EPLC

After 10 pages of pros and cons and many opinions I've learned a lot from this thread. By experimenting on placing focus more on my dot instead of trying to use x-ray vision my hold has improved. I "can" hold pretty well now as a result. Because of my shoulder issue my practice time is limited so perfecting a release engine to go along with my new found hold is taking longer than a snail race. But I'm chugging along...


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## Tyler Finley

Tagged for future reference


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