# Fast bows vs. Accuracy??



## Harperman (Sep 3, 2006)

Just for information sake, why is a fast bow considered less accurate than a slower bow??..Taking a look at what design features that make a bow faster, VS. slower, does it really have to be an either/or type of thing?...Also, when the term "Accurate" is used, what kind of accuracy are we talking about?...Baby X's on a Vegas target, or 10 rings on a 3-D deer, or putting that broadhead arrow tight in the pocket behind the shoulder of a game animal?...Faster bows normally have lower brace heights, shorter A-T-A's, and shorter limbs, as well as more aggressive cams, and then in turn have more aggressive draw cycles, and narrower valleys....Assuming that an archer has a well-tuned bow, set up for Their draw length and shooting style, AND the archer has good form, why cant a Finger shooter shoot a bow thats considered fast by todays standards?...Lets examine the parts of a "Finger" bow individually, and actually see what is needed...#1...A-T-A length....Plus's for longer bows include less finger pinch, lower string angles, less sensitivity to a bad release..Minus's seem to be less mobility while hunting, but I dont see it..I never had any real problems hunting off the ground with a 68" longbow, or a 62" recurve from a treestand.#2....Agressive Cams/draw cycles...Besides being uncomfortable to some archers, I see this as a non-issue in reality, becuase I dont understand how an aggressive cam or draw cycle affects accuracy..I've heard theories, but I'm not sure if these are valid..#3...Valley, and hard vs. soft wall...Again, this is a personal choice, and is more of a "Feel" kinda thing, since many good Target archers prefer a hard wall, and short valley...I've seen some impressive shooting done with fingers, and a bow with a hard wall, and narrow valley....#4...Brace height...I believe that higher brace height is more forgiving of bow hand torque, but the trade-off is loss of speed, which in turn can be considered a less forgiving bow attribute due to this being a cause of missing the target when unknown range is taken into consideration...I dont think that the average Hunter/3-D shooter/casual Spot shooter is really going to see that much difference in a 38" bow, with a 7 1/2" brace height, and a 43" bow with a 8"-9" brace, if the archer themselves is a decent shot, and the bow specs fit the archer, keeping in mind that a really tall, long-armed shooter is gonna have to shoot a longer bow to get the draw length that They need...If anyone reads this that is a proponent of the "Old School" bows, please tell "US" what Your game is , and why You like the longer bows, with milder eccentrics, and higher brace heights...If anyone reads this that shoots a bow that is "New School", tell "US" what Your game is, and why You like the gear that You shoot....I'm looking forward to hearing about WHY You choose the gear that You shoot.......Thanks in advance!......Jim


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## jcs-bowhunter (Jul 7, 2007)

Jim

I’m old school for a very simple reason. I want a simple forgiving setup for Michigan bowhunting that is easy to shoot. These are typically tree stand distances less then 25 yards with awkward angles, heavy clothes and the accompanying adrenaline rush of shooting at a deer (after 25 years I still get excited shooting a buck or doe!). If a longer shot is required then I always have a rangefinder in my pocket. I don’t care about speed. To me the most import aspect of this hobby is getting the best possible broadhead flight and working backward from that starting point. When I decide to go back to finger shooting full time last year, I error on the side of being conservative as to not get myself into a situation where the bow would be hyper sensitive to timing and minor shooting form discrepancies. 

To your point about the 7.5” BH/38” ATA reference I had a Hoyt Striker w/Command cams few years ago and finger shot it OK with field points. But I could never get a broadheads to fly really well out of it. This is during the period of time I primarily shoot a release and my finger form was rusty at best. I killed one deer with it but was never really comfortable with it. I'm also much better at building arrow that fly well. So I guess the jury is still out on that one since I sold it.

I shot the Michigan IBO State Championship this last weekend and would of loved to had an extra 50FPS (someone must have had a sale on Rhinehart Turkey targets, AHHHHH! Even though the targets are at 35 Yards max in HF (Hunter Fingers)). Since I’m pretty casual about the 3D shooting and target shooting in general, I’m OK with a little lower score knowing I can consistently shoot broadheads at 20 yards all day.

I am sure your going to get lots of differing opinions on this topic.


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## jerrytee (Feb 5, 2005)

I shoot an Oneida Pro Eagle, so the bows I find most accurate are zero reflex smooth cam, hard back wall lever action. Accuracy for me means a good end is four arrows in the gold at 100yds ( That's a pie plate) and the other two in the red. I have tried wheelie bows (Mathews Rival Pro) and found they lack the stability and consistancy that the Pro Eagle has, and the back wall is softer, The Oneida has a draw stop on both cam sets, top and bottom. Two things I don't care that much about are speed and noise.


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## marcusjb (Jun 22, 2005)

I would pretty much agree with your analysis. Especially on #1. I think short ata is the single most overrated specification on a bow. Why in the world is 6 inches in length so valuable, when bowhunters of the past (and present) were quite sucessful with recurves and longbows of 60 inches? Yet this is one of the specs most advertised. Probably most of these things are matters of what is most comfortable or gives the best consistency. Also, on the subject of cams, I'm a better shot with my binary cam bow with a hard wall than I was with the spongy walled wheel bow I used to shoot. But I have to give my release more attention to keep it 100% consistent. I also have increased my effective range a little with the Constitution that I currently shoot, but I probably have to thank Bushnell some for that too. :wink:


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## Recurveunaided (Jan 17, 2008)

Ok, I will try to define IMO a good finger bow (new school or old school). First it needs to have an ATA long enough to not pinch my fingers (27" draw). It needs to have a BH as to not be to demanding to a perfect grip placement or release. Last it needs to have enough speed to let me miss yardage by 2 to 3 yards. Call it old or new, thats a great finger bow. Now if you have a 30" draw, it may not be the same specs as mine with a 27" draw


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## Harperman (Sep 3, 2006)

Thanks for the replies, fella's...So it seems to Me that "Finger Shooting" also includes all forms of archery, from Spots, to FITA targets, as well as 3-D, and obviously Bowhunting...So the, "WE" are also separated into many different Camps, as it pertains to what "WE" want/need from Our bows, performance-wise then....I have Met "RecurveUnaided", and He can shoot, and I think that both He and I are pretty close to the same page with what We want from Our bows, Me being primarily a 3-D shooter, and I also enjoy shooting indoor Spots, but I'm probably not going to set up a dedicated Spot bow, just becuase it would be so much different than a dedicated 3-D bow, and doing that same thing kinda messed with Me this year...it seems that an ideal finger bow pretty much depends on the use of the bow, in the end then??...For me, I'd think that some top-shelf Finger bows would be the bows with some A-T-A, and decent brace height, that still had an aggressive cam, and a hard back wall with a reletively short valley....Something like the Constitution, the Apex, the Moneymaker, Scepters with Fury or Nitrous cams, or a Hoyt UltraTec or ProTec with XT3000 limbs, or the newer Vantage X7 or X8....If I get this Moneymaker dialed in, it might be a great bow, if not, I still have the Scepter 3 with Fury X cams....If I can get over the notion that 250 f.ps. isnt fast enough for Hunter class 3-D, I think that the Scepter 3 would make a great all-round bow, or I might just look for a used Apex this fall.....Keep them posts coming, and make sure to tell "US" what Your archery game is, and why You feel that Your choice of bow best fits that use...Thanks!.....Take Care......Jim


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## DDSHOOTER (Aug 22, 2005)

I am not sure what school I am in? But a friend of mine told me that 280 fps was the limit for finger shooters. Since he always placed in the top three, i had to agree. I like my target bow to be 280 fps or slower (I see alot of outdoor target shooting real small arrow at about 250-270 fps at 90 meters with very good results). But my 3d/hunting bow is currently set at 292 fps, 300+ is to fast for me. It the same story I heard on one of these threads about the super fast car vs the standard old reliable car. The faster bow require more attention on how it setup, timing, and shooter form. I can shoot the faster bow out to 45 yard with good ten ring groups and the slower bow has better groups out to 60 yards. Its a trade off that I am willing to take.


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## Unclegus (May 27, 2003)

Old school and strictly spots. Before the health went, I shot some 268 to 270 hunter and field halves with a round wheel Provantage on 44#, 10 3/4" BH and 198 FPS. (never could shoot two good halves together. (271 half and 534 28 target best ) As long as it goes in the spot, I don't care if it goes end over end and arrives at the target with just enough energy to stick in the target butt without bouncing out. As for the Brace Height, these bows didn't start to shoot until you got them over 10 1/2. Absolutely the closest thing ever built to a bow that would shoot itself. 
Yes, and I remember the incredible scores Jim McDonald shot with the Oneidas with the draw weight in the low thirties after he had the bypass. I think those records will stand for a long time. 
There's some really great finger scores shot with the new faster bows, and I don't knock them, but I DO scratch my head once and a while. I guess unless I shoot one myself I'll really never know if they are as forgiving as the longer deflex riser bows, but that isn't going to happen. I'll stick with my old crusty Barnsdale. 
If you feel you need a really short bow that shoots way up in the speed department, by all means, knock yourself out. Shoot what you like and have confidence in...That's the big thing... Noone should have to justify what they shoot to anyone else...I'm sure if I shot 3D, I'd be trying to figure out a way to shoot a 300FPS cam bow with a clicker.
On the other hand, If I'm going to shoot at a live deer, it will be with a Weatherby... that's 3600FPS


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## archerm3 (Jan 4, 2007)

I submit to you that a faster bow is more accurate, as long as it is tuned. Thereing lies the rub...for years it was difficult to properly tune a fast bow. 

A faster bow is more accurate because it spends less time on the bow during which time your bow hand can affect the flight path. As long as it spends less time on the bow. Some bows are faster because of a lower brace height, which means a longer power stroke, which means more time on the bow being affected by movement in your bow hand, and generally less accurate.


A bow with least amount of recoil is more accurate because you don't have to react precisely with muscle action to keep the bow on target. Problem was, fast bows often had a lot of recoil (not so much anymore).


A bow needs to have arrow rest about the center of rotation in the vertical axis when held to be accurate. Back in the day with overdraws, and even now with some drop aways that drop late, you have a lever arm between the bow rotating and the rest displacing the forward part of the arrow from its flight path. If the rest is at the center of rotation, it won't displace the front of the arrow (or middle of the arrow as it fires) from its flight path. Drop aways avoid this affect when they drop early. Otherwise, a rest generally needs to be placed around the location of the berger button hole, which is generally in line with the throat of the grip, which is generally the center of bow torque rotation. 

So, I say a fast bow is more accurate as long as you aren't using a rest with an overdraw effect, is in tune/time, and has minimum recoil (light arrows/heavy mass weight/parallel limbs/smooth cam profile).


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## jerrytee (Feb 5, 2005)

I would not say we are in different camps. Perhapps on different sides of the camp fire. We all have to get our fingers off the string cleanly.Speaking for myself, I like to think that I can apreciate and under stand another archers' style and methods according to the type of shooting they do, even though I can't apply those methods and style to my own shooting.


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## Unclegus (May 27, 2003)

Devil's advocate here. Accuracy and forgiveness are apples and oranges. ANY bow will shoot in the same hole whether it's a Baby G or a Provantage out of a hooter shooter and in tune or not.


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## archerm3 (Jan 4, 2007)

Unclegus said:


> Devil's advocate here. Accuracy and forgiveness are apples and oranges. ANY bow will shoot in the same hole whether it's a Baby G or a Provantage out of a hooter shooter and in tune or not.


What UG says is true...Problem is when you add the human element how far apart does each, different shot get. How sensitive is the bow to a hand twitch, a torquey grip, finger movement, bad release, a creep....


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## Recurveunaided (Jan 17, 2008)

This is one of the most interesing posts in a long time. Good job Jim.
Dave


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## jhart75609 (Nov 8, 2005)

I think we are using the term accuracy incorrectly, and should replace it with shootabilty. I agree that they will all shoot good out of a machine, but the problem is; as hard as we try, we 'aint machines.

I think we too overlook differences in personal styles. I truely feel that I shoot a straight, or reflexed riser better than I shoot a defelxed job. Same with cams, I think I'm better with the aggressive fast cams than I am with wheels.

I have a PSE Citation II in the other room that I was going to use for spots a few years ago. I was shooting 300's with my 285 fps speed bow, and the guys said WOW!! You have to get you a spot bow!! Well I got a spot bow, and never shot as well with it as I did the speed bow. Maybe I didn't spend the time with it I should've. I always felt though that the speed bow was easier for me to shoot. I still want to get the Citation set up and shooting though!! Pretty bow.


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## Unclegus (May 27, 2003)

Exactly........Accuracy and forgiveness/shootability are two totally different things. 
Again I stress, doesn't matter how fast you miss or how slow you hit or vice versa. A fast bow that is easy to shoot would definitely out shoot a slow one that isn't easy to shoot. No brainer. I know it's all subjective, but is there really a fast bow out there that has the forgiveness of a round wheel, big Brace height, deflex riser bow?? Have you noticed how some bow Manufacturers try to get the best of both worlds by having the grip of the riser sit behind the limbs like a reflex, but the center section of the riser is deflex?????

Just let me throw this one in and I've said my piece. There have only been three people to shoot a 540 average for the four days of spots at the nationals with fingers. Butch, Tim Strickland, and Steve Gibbs. Need I say what type of bows they shot???

I don't know if it's because there aren't as many finger shooters now or what the case may be, but the top shooters these days rarely break forty. I think maby I've seen where Bob Gentry or Rodney Huffman may have scratched the forty mark now and then. The last really impressive finger score I know of was shot by Todd McCormick at the PAA championships at Mechanicsburg a few years ago. 551 hunter round. Hoyt Oasis with wheels.......


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## Harperman (Sep 3, 2006)

UncleGus...I totally agree with Your last post, and please continue to help Us younger, less experienced shooters out with Your many years of experience....I for one look forward to reading Your posts, and take heed to Your advice...Now then, as for the Spot shooters that shoot fingers, I think the main reason that there isnt many today, is due to a few things.....Fingershooting is dying out, because new Archers arent even told that They can shoot with fingers, and it's ALOT harder to learn, so new archers wont even try it, and sadly, a $23.00 tab that will last for years doesnt make a Pro shop much revenue as compared to folks buying releases that cost $150.00 or more...I've seen fella's at the local shop go through as many as 3 mechanical releases in one year..Thats almost enough $$ to buy a new bow, or a darn good used bow....Fingershooting is also dying out because the Manf. and Sponsers dont give a rat's patooty about finger shooters even in the Pro ranks, and alot of good shooters will shoot a mech. release becuase of that...They want to go where the Money, and Fame are, and it isnt in the Finger classes...The Manf. are not trying hard enough to make REAL finger bows, for the most part......Most folks that shoot a bow also Bowhunt, and Bowhunters today want a fast, quiet, sweet-shooting bow, and alot of "Finger" bows are none of the above...My Katera XL is quieter with 5 grains per pound arrows, than My Scepter 3 is when shooting 30" 2413's, with 125 grain points...My Apex was also loud, but I really dont care how loud a target bow is, but a hunting bow has to be quiet...And not at the exspense of shooting 500 grain arrows, at 200 f.p.s....Also, take into consideration that most folks that shoot 3-D still want (Need??) a fast bow...If a target distance is mis-judged by 3 yards, at 300 f.p.s. arrow speed, and the shot execution was perfect, the arrow will still be in the 10 ring....At 240 f.p.s, that arow will probably be in the 8 ring, or a 5...Every good finger shooter that I've talked to at 3-D shoots is shooting 260 f.p.s. plus...I personally think that 260 f.p.s. is about as slow as I could shoot, and still shoot well...Maybe, maybe not!....L.O.L....At this point, I reckon that for Me it really comes down to "Horses for Courses" for Finger bows..A faster bow might be less forgiving of a form error, but it is more forgiving of a yardage judgement error...Brian Scott Fickel, from Logan, Ohio, turned some boys out last year shooting an APEX 7...Last year, Mr. Fickle won the Indoor Worlds, 2 legs of the Triple Crown, and was only beat by 2 points in the shootoff for I.B.O. World Champion..He told me that He had only been shooting for 2 years prior to that...Thats pretty good shooting for a 37" bow, with a 7" brace height, and light arrows...I "Think" that He also shoots that Apex 7 for indoor Spots, and I'm told that his indoor scores are very impressive as well...Lastly, because of the lack of knowledge of Finger shooting today, and less and less of the older fella's to pass it on, I dont believe that the talent pool is there to draw from at the bigger Target venues...I know that there are a few older fella's at the shop I go to that can still shoot Fingers very well, but shoot with a Release becuase it's just less hassle over-all..Shooting Fingers is alot more work, thats for sure, but I feel that it is worth it, and much more rewarding....Rock On, Uncle Gus!...Take Care.......Jim


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## fuelracerpat (May 6, 2008)

I'm new to the forum, and with that said have to add my 2 cents.
I quit shooting for 16-17 years and recently(last December) decided to get back into the competitive archery game. Man..... was I amazed at the changes! I still have several old bows capable of shooting well but if something gave up couldn't find parts. I recently bought a new Barnsdale Classic X - 45.5" with his round wheels, an absolutely wonderful finger bow!
I picked up several of the new short bows and the the single most noticeable and awkward thing about these bows is the center of the bow being at the arrow rest and bot the throat of the grip. They all felt top heavy and "just different".
I shoot competitive bowhunter or did, now I have been talked in to shooting barebow. Form is coming back and scores are going up, going to shoot Texas state Championship this weekend and Nationals in July.
Now back to finger bow spec's and why I like them. I shoot 29.5" draw and 62# on the Barney, 65% let-off, need at this on the back end just to get off the string nearly clean. If I hadn't gotten so old I would be shooting 70-75# for the extra "cleanliness" I may try the 55% mods from David Barnsdale to see if that helps. Anything shorter than 43" ATA becomes very critical for me, release wise. Brace height never seemed much of an issue to me but, I have nearly always shot something greater than 9-9.5". I also shoot hard against the stops, again to try and get off the string. Speed is not that much of an issue either, but with that said, shooting barebow I like to have a point-on as close to 80 yards as possible. Carbon arrow shafts allowed the long point-on, (I always shot aluminum before) I shot my first carbon arrow about a month ago, other than being a little fragile from the back-end, I like 'em! 
Short bows, high let-off and reflex risers are not conducive to forgiving ham-handed-ness. Which I suffer from greatly, along with a twenty year old case of target-panic 
I have shot with some really GOOD finger shooters, Charlie Langston years ago and a Ron Hendricks, he won Nationals in 90 or 91 shooting BHFSL and could shoot consistently in the 540's outdoors and 299-300 indoors. The one thing hear no one has mentioned much is what do you use on your fingers? I use a Bateman tab that is 20 years old and I will be doomed if it fails or I lose it. Tabs or gloves or whatever has always been a highly personal thing but I think accuracy is typically improved with a good tab over any glove I have ever shot( and I have shot nearly all of them).
I seemed to have rambled far enough for now. Good to see some folks are still shooting fingers though.


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## jhart75609 (Nov 8, 2005)

Haperman....

I have to agree with the reasons for the declining number of finger shooters. I can't say that if I was starting out from scratch that I would even try fingers. I can't even say that if I had a friend starting out that I would recomend fingers. It's just so much easier getting someone into a "release bow" and shooting well. I think another thing is time, people like me have to shoot quite a bit or I can't hit a barn. That doesn't bother me since I like to shoot. I have one brother though that was a darn good finger shooter. As he got older it was taking more and more time to get him shooting well, and he didn't have the time. He switched to a release and loves it.

I have another brother that started shooting a release a few years ago, and he loves it. That release was honestly the best thing to ever happen to his bowhunting career. He couldn't shoot fingers worth a hoot. Now the deer are nervous! I have a 17 yr old son that was he same way. He shot fingers when he was young, but went to a release and it really helped him. I don't think I would have let him hunt the way he shot fingers, and he wanted it bad. It wasn't from lack of trying.

To be honest, there's a lot of times I want to shoot a release. It would open up bow choices, probably simplify tuning a bit. (My sons bow is a snap) It just doesn't feel right to me though so I keep doing with the fingers. We do have some fine bows out there though. You talked about quiet, I still can't believe how quiet the Connie is at 280 fps. The speed bows 10 years ago were only slightly quieter than a rifle!


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## Unclegus (May 27, 2003)

Charlie Langston... I haven't heard that name in years. He was one heck of a finger shooter. Strong as a bull.......Shot 80# and big aluminum arrows. Also very Smoooooth.....
Let me say one thing about the 65% and 55% modules on the Barnsdale. They are two absolutely different animals. I've shot both. The difference in feel is huge. I have to shoot about 1/4" less draw with the 55% to feel right....
I know about finding a tab that suits you. I bought three Neet calf hair tabs back in 92. Wore them out. Little flimsy things you could get a feel of the string with. They were discontinued. I have a whole filing cabinet full of tabs that I tried, but didn't like. Finally, out of frustration and pure panic, I called Neet and they agreed to make me a special run of the tab. Had to buy 20 of them, but I figure they will last longer than I will......
Yes, I've been around for years, I still learn something about fingers everyday, and I definitely won't ever know the finer points of finger shooting like the Fita guys.....


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## Harperman (Sep 3, 2006)

jhart75609 said:


> Haperman....
> 
> I have to agree with the reasons for the declining number of finger shooters. I can't say that if I was starting out from scratch that I would even try fingers. I can't even say that if I had a friend starting out that I would recomend fingers. It's just so much easier getting someone into a "release bow" and shooting well. I think another thing is time, people like me have to shoot quite a bit or I can't hit a barn. That doesn't bother me since I like to shoot. I have one brother though that was a darn good finger shooter. As he got older it was taking more and more time to get him shooting well, and he didn't have the time. He switched to a release and loves it.
> 
> ...


....Jhart75609....Shooting a release can and does make alotof difference for most folks, I had a buddy that was having some trouble shooting fingers, and recently went to a Release aid..He is amazed at how much easier it is to be accurate...I'm not much of a bowhunter, and even when My accuracy is in a slump, I still feel confident enough in my shooting to bowhunt, considering the distance range of deer hunting, and for bowhunting, My set-up will be different enough to help...Nothing wrong with a person admitting to themselves that shooting fingers is not for them, due to time constraints, or physical limitations, example one of the older archers I know has arthritis in His hands, and a release is what he shoots now, but He was a fair shot when he could shoot fingers...Some archers arent in the company of other finger shooters that know what's what, and so they struggle, or start off on a bad foot...I consider Myself very lucky to have a few archers around here that are , or were, very good finger shooters, and if I am having some trouble, I can get some free Coaching for the price of a Pepsi, or the favour of asking, and listening...Something that I have recently rediscovered, is that finger shooting is all about set-up, and proper release, and making the shot sequence "Yours", by doing what works for "You"....If the arrows are packing tight in the intended target, then You must be doing something right, and continually over-analyzing everything leads Me down the road to doubt...which becomes target panic when the bow is at full draw....I robin hooded another arrow last night, when checking My sights at 20 yards...Then went out to shoot some 3-D targets, and shot very badly...Makes me wanna shoot with a release, but blowing a shot is blowing a shot, regardless of the release method!....L.O.L...It's a personal struggle, and it's something that I'm still willing to try to master....For now, at least!...L.O.L....Take Care.......Jim


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## Unclegus (May 27, 2003)

Finger shooters are almost looked at as second class citizens nowdays. There is very little notoriety in shooting fingers. EVERYBODY knows who Jesse and Cuz are, but do they know who the top finger shooters are?? Everyone is shooting for that fifteen minutes of fame.... Let's face it, shooting fingers isn't the in vogue thing to do. Although I personally really don't give a #$%@&*$. I began my shooting career almost 47 years ago as a finger shooter and that's the way I'll finish...or it finishes me.

Wonder how many compound shooters can name the guys on the olympic team without looking????


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## Harperman (Sep 3, 2006)

UncleGus...You nailed it again....Finger shooters are looked at today as either some kind of oddity, or someone that is behind the times, or lastly, just a goofball that very few take seriously...A few archers that the shop that I go to understand, either having shot fingers in the past, or some at least understanding the reasons behind shooting fingers, in that it's just another form of Archery, and I happen to want to be good at it...As for the finger shooters being famous, there is a fella that shoots around here locally, named Chris Stachler, and he shoots in the Pro Fingers class at I.B.O., and ASA shoots..He was I.B.O. World Champ in 2007, and I think that He won that shoot before, a couple years back, Chris was shooter of the year before, and is a Pro shooter for Mathews...Also a very humble, helpfull, friendly guy, and sadly, most folks around here wouldnt know Him from Adam if they shot alongside Him...It seems to me that alot of the outstanding Finger shooters are pretty much unknown outside of Their local area's...Most archers today know who most of the Pro's are, in particular the Pro's that shoot the same brand of bow that they themselves shoot...But not the Fingershooters..I wonder how many folks can name the Archers that won the Fingers divisions of Vegas last year without looking it up?...I cant...I was supposed to get to meet Butch Johnson last winter, but it didn't happen, and I was sorely dissapointed, I really admire His shooting ability, and accomplishments...Regardless of the tournament, or governing body, Fingershooters get overlooked....."WE" will just have to keep on doin' what We like, and live with it, I reckon... I guess that Chuck Adams will just have to continue to carry the torch for Us...or at least for the Bowhunters that shoot with fingers...L.O.L....Take Care....Jim P.S....Maybe We can convince 'Ol Chuck to get REFLEX to put some Spiral cams on a Caribou??...Command Plus cams, at least??....L.O.L...


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## DDSHOOTER (Aug 22, 2005)

In Arizona the top finger shooters can compete with most of the other classes. I know that when I shoot 3 d's I have release shooter say thats a good shot for a finger guy! Now I'm not saying I can out shoot them (because most of the time I don't) but for us Finger guys, we don't back down, right. It kind of make you feel good when can hang in there a take alittle money back. You can always tell them to watchout, I might just start shooting in your release class.


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## archerm3 (Jan 4, 2007)

Did someone say a spiral cammed boo? That would be cooooooool.

If they could cut some parallelness into the riser....cooller yet....


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## Unclegus (May 27, 2003)

There is absolutely NOTHING more satisfying for a finger dog than to kick a hook shooter's butt......


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## Harperman (Sep 3, 2006)

DDshooter....Fair play to You!...Archerm3...Why not Spirals on a 'Bou?...All it takes a phone call to Hoyt, and getting the string/cable lengths, and making sure that the deflection numbers on the limbs will end up where 'Ya want, for draw weight...I dont even see why a fella cant put XT-2000, or XT-3000 limbs on a 'Bou riser, if it they allready had the limbs, and cams...Of course, You would end up real close to a ProTec, but at least You would have a Custom type bow...If I could get a Caribou to shoot 25 f.p.s. faster, I'd have no problem shooting it..I also think that Spirals on a Hoyt Montega might be awesome...Martin put Fury cams, and Nitrous cams on the Scepters, and they are long, have 8" of brace, and still have decent speed, my Scepter 3 shoots 5 g.p.p. in the low 270's, with fingers, and a peep in the string, but I have it "Tweeked" as far as I am willing to tweek it...The A-T-A , and brace height are supposed to be what sets a finger bow apart from a release bow, RIGHT??..Whats stopping any of the Manf. from making a long axel bow, but putting some wicked cams on it....Oh, yeah, I forgot, thats what a Bowtech Constitution is, for the most part..The Moneymaker is very close to the same specs as the Connie's, and from My own chrono testing, the Moneymaker is faster than the advertised specs by about 10 f.p.s....Mathews Apex is 43", 8" brace, and has an aggressive cam on it, and produces plenty of speed...My Moneymaker shoots over 280 f.p.s. with legal arrows, as did the Apex I had...At this point, I'm thinking that I was better off with the Apex...I might end up with another one...The Moneymaker is leaving tommorow...Changing a Caribou over to Spirals might be more trouble than it's worth, but it also might just be the best Finger bow for 3-D that was ever made.....I'm still wondering if the Z-3 cams can be put on an UltraTec, and still shoot the same as they do on the Katera XL...Anybody figure that one out, PLEASE let Me know....Take care....Jim


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## Harperman (Sep 3, 2006)

Oh, yeah, I also sent Barnsdale an E-mail about the Ultimate X bows, with the Wedel shoot-through cams....I was asking about the 41" to 43" bow, with the 23" riser, and Wedel cams, and asked what kind of speed it would produce, with I.B.O. legal arrows, and 28" draw...As of yet, I've gotten no response...I have heard that the Barny bows make good speed for the over-all specs, so I figured that a 43" "Custom" bow with carbon limbs, and an aggressive cam should be the ticket...Still waiting on a reply...I understand that most folks want a Barny bow for Spots, and marked yardage, but there are a few finger-flickers that shoot 3-D, and want a bit more speed than a wheel bow can deliver...Maybe I'll start a Barney-Bow thread??....Jim


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## archerm3 (Jan 4, 2007)

Trust me Harperman, I'm all for sprirals on a boo :thumbs_up:


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## jcs-bowhunter (Jul 7, 2007)

Get to the laboratory Egor. It's time to build Franken-Bou!


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## Harperman (Sep 3, 2006)

jcs-bowhunter said:


> Get to the laboratory Egor. It's time to build Franken-Bou!


.....or, maybe it could be called a "SuperBou", or Das UberBou....L.O.L....Seriuosly, though, just imagine all the things that Y'all Bou-Shooters love about the 'Bou, but 20 f.p.s faster, with a solid back wall?...That there's a little sumtnin' to think about...Jim


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## jhart75609 (Nov 8, 2005)

Seems like 15 years or so ago my buddies at the archery shop went to "PSE school". When they were there they built themselves bows, and they might have had the ability to mix and match some parts. Seems like the hard part would be getting the cable and string lengths correct.

Come on somebody give it a whirl!


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## DDSHOOTER (Aug 22, 2005)

Harperman said:


> DDshooter....Fair play to You!...Archerm3...Why not Spirals on a 'Bou?...All it takes a phone call to Hoyt, and getting the string/cable lengths, and making sure that the deflection numbers on the limbs will end up where 'Ya want, for draw weight...I dont even see why a fella cant put XT-2000, or XT-3000 limbs on a 'Bou riser, if it they allready had the limbs, and cams...Of course, You would end up real close to a ProTec, but at least You would have a Custom type bow...If I could get a Caribou to shoot 25 f.p.s. faster, I'd have no problem shooting it..I also think that Spirals on a Hoyt Montega might be awesome...Martin put Fury cams, and Nitrous cams on the Scepters, and they are long, have 8" of brace, and still have decent speed, my Scepter 3 shoots 5 g.p.p. in the low 270's, with fingers, and a peep in the string, but I have it "Tweeked" as far as I am willing to tweek it...The A-T-A , and brace height are supposed to be what sets a finger bow apart from a release bow, RIGHT??..Whats stopping any of the Manf. from making a long axel bow, but putting some wicked cams on it....Oh, yeah, I forgot, thats what a Bowtech Constitution is, for the most part..The Moneymaker is very close to the same specs as the Connie's, and from My own chrono testing, the Moneymaker is faster than the advertised specs by about 10 f.p.s....Mathews Apex is 43", 8" brace, and has an aggressive cam on it, and produces plenty of speed...My Moneymaker shoots over 280 f.p.s. with legal arrows, as did the Apex I had...At this point, I'm thinking that I was better off with the Apex...I might end up with another one...The Moneymaker is leaving tommorow...Changing a Caribou over to Spirals might be more trouble than it's worth, but it also might just be the best Finger bow for 3-D that was ever made.....I'm still wondering if the Z-3 cams can be put on an UltraTec, and still shoot the same as they do on the Katera XL...Anybody figure that one out, PLEASE let Me know....Take care....Jim


I have #4.0 Z3 on my 2003 Ultratec it came out at 29" draw, 54 lb, 6.75" BH, AtoA is 36.75 and shoots a 310 grain arrow at 292+ fps. ITs smooth and fast. If I lower the cam size by 2 sizes I think I can get more poundage and brace height.

I have been shooting it for about 3 months and love it so far. It has very little hand shock and is a 12 fps faster than the C2 cams at 8 lb less draw weight, and smoother. I put a fuse stealthshot on it and it has very little jump. Way Less jump than my Ultrelite with xt3000 C2 cams. I don't think its as dead in the hand as a katera or katera xl. But, I plan on getting a vertric xl and putting this cam on it to compare? A freind has Z3's on his Proelite with 3000 limbs for traget only.


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## DDSHOOTER (Aug 22, 2005)

Correction on the above post. The AtoA is 38". Anyway, it shoots great for a nonparallel limb bow.


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## Harperman (Sep 3, 2006)

DDSHOOTER....Thanks!...Some folks are saying that the Z3 cant be put on a non-paralell limbed bow, but it seems that they can...I personally think that the Z3 cams are the best cams that I've ever drawn...I LOVE Hoyt bows, but I've never been completely satisfied with any of Their cams...I do like the way a Command cam draws, though....Instead of setting the Katera XL back up, I set my Scepter 3 up, and got it tuned and sighted in this evening...With an STS on it, it shoots alot better, (But doesnt look near as clean as without it)...Anyway, I Robin-Hooded an arrow tonight at 35 yards, the second one this week...I just bought the arrows last night!.I might end up selling the Katera XL, trying to scrape up the $$$ to buy my Son a car to drive back-n-forth to work and college...The economy is getting pretty tight around here, and I'm streamlining my archery gear...IF I can get a decent car cheap enough, I might sell the Katera XL anyway, and build an UltraTec or ProTec or ProElite with Z-3 cams...Too many choices, too little time and money..L.O.L....Thanks for the info, DDSHOOTER!...Take care......Jim


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## archerm3 (Jan 4, 2007)

jhart75609 said:


> Seems like 15 years or so ago my buddies at the archery shop went to "PSE school". When they were there they built themselves bows, and they might have had the ability to mix and match some parts. *Seems like the hard part would be getting the cable and string lengths correct.*
> 
> Come on somebody give it a whirl!


That very thought crossed my mind as well. As I thought about it, my first idea to solve that problem would be to measure the limb deflection of your target weight on the original bow for the cam, then, put the franken-bow in preferably an EZ press, press it down to the same limb deflection, set your cams at the proper static rotation angle, then take some thread and string up the bow, adjusting lengths as necessary, then make up some strings of the same size as the adjusted threads. That should get you close I would think that you could adjust all the lengths from there.


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## DDSHOOTER (Aug 22, 2005)

Thats a good start. But first you have to pick the right size of cams for your draw lenght. And Second the Z3 and spirl cam require a higher limb deflection. My Ultratec was a 60-70 lb bow, and now is a 54 max with Z3. But like I said; to get more BH and LB I would need to lose 2 cam sizes. Keep in mind when you gain BH you will lose AtoA.


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## archerm3 (Jan 4, 2007)

DDSHOOTER said:


> Thats a good start. But first *you have to pick the right size of cams for your draw lenght. *And Second the Z3 and spirl cam require a higher limb deflection. My Ultratec was a 60-70 lb bow, and now is a 54 max with Z3. But like I said; to get more BH and LB I would need to lose 2 cam sizes. Keep in mind when you gain BH you will lose AtoA.


Yep thats the biggie.


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## DDSHOOTER (Aug 22, 2005)

Harperman said:


> DDSHOOTER....Thanks!...Some folks are saying that the Z3 cant be put on a non-paralell limbed bow, but it seems that they can...I personally think that the Z3 cams are the best cams that I've ever drawn...I LOVE Hoyt bows, but I've never been completely satisfied with any of Their cams...I do like the way a Command cam draws, though....Instead of setting the Katera XL back up, I set my Scepter 3 up, and got it tuned and sighted in this evening...With an STS on it, it shoots alot better, (But doesnt look near as clean as without it)...Anyway, I Robin-Hooded an arrow tonight at 35 yards, the second one this week...I just bought the arrows last night!.I might end up selling the Katera XL, [*B]trying to scrape up the $$$ to buy my Son a car to drive back-n-forth to work and college*[/B]...The economy is getting pretty tight around here, and I'm streamlining my archery gear...IF I can get a decent car cheap enough, I might sell the Katera XL anyway, and build an UltraTec or ProTec or ProElite with Z-3 cams...Too many choices, too little time and money..L.O.L....Thanks for the info, DDSHOOTER!...Take care......Jim


My son also need a truck so thats what I just had to do, plus fix it and get it to pass emission inspection. So far its cost me about 3 new bows! Two years I when through the same thing with a daughter, bought her a honda paid $5000.00 and 3 months late put a clutch in it, it been great so far? That why I had to, as you put it, "streamling my archery gear". I 

I have a line on a vertrix XL that I will be able to shoot for the weekend. If I buy it I will put the Z3 on it. The conversion is alot easier. I think I will then work on getting my UltraElite converted? I have a good idea on cam size and string length for it.


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## biblethumpncop (May 14, 2004)

This is a good thread, from 7 years ago! Some of the posters were relatively new back then. Bows discussed haven't been in production for years, and new cam options are now available. 

I thought I would bring up the thread to generate any new thoughts...


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## ron w (Jan 5, 2013)

the bow itself, as a machine is more or less accurate, because it is faster,....when introduce the human factor, a fast bow is less accurate, because it is more sensitive to the variations and inconsistendies of human input from shot to shot.
the same holds true of longer ATA bows vs. shorter ATA bows, and somewhat overlaps in this realm, because the faster bows, are usually the shorter ATA bows by mechanical design criteria.


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## rsarns (Sep 23, 2008)

Awesome thread to bring back up!


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## Windrover (Jan 6, 2012)

Unclegus said:


> Old school and strictly spots. Before the health went, I shot some 268 to 270 hunter and field halves with a round wheel Provantage on 44#, 10 3/4" BH and 198 FPS. (never could shoot two good halves together. (271 half and 534 28 target best ) As long as it goes in the spot, I don't care if it goes end over end and arrives at the target with just enough energy to stick in the target butt without bouncing out. As for the Brace Height, these bows didn't start to shoot until you got them over 10 1/2. Absolutely the closest thing ever built to a bow that would shoot itself.
> Yes, and I remember the incredible scores Jim McDonald shot with the Oneidas with the draw weight in the low thirties after he had the bypass. I think those records will stand for a long time.
> There's some really great finger scores shot with the new faster bows, and I don't knock them, but I DO scratch my head once and a while. I guess unless I shoot one myself I'll really never know if they are as forgiving as the longer deflex riser bows, but that isn't going to happen. I'll stick with my old crusty Barnsdale.
> If you feel you need a really short bow that shoots way up in the speed department, by all means, knock yourself out. Shoot what you like and have confidence in...That's the big thing... Noone should have to justify what they shoot to anyone else...I'm sure if I shot 3D, I'd be trying to *figure out a way to shoot a 300FPS cam bow with a clicker*.
> On the other hand, If I'm going to shoot at a live deer, it will be with a Weatherby... that's 3600FPS


Just so you know, modern cams feature backwalls from firm to hard stop. We used to shoot wheels from the valley. If form didn't dictate draw length consistency then a clicker was useful. With modern cam hard backwalls virtually everyone shoots hard against the backwall. No clicker needed.


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