# new rig, need help - Samick Sage



## Vince1 (Jun 27, 2013)

I currently own a Lh Samick 30# and moving up to a 40# to hunt this season, with my 30 DL I should be pulling roughly 44#. My first concern was that I wasn't going to be getting pass throughs but after reading a bit I feel confident that 44# will do nicely if tuned correctly. 

I would like to make sure I have a nice rig at a decent price. 

I currently have a Samick Sage with the string that came with it out the box, should I upgrade this?

Also, I don't want to spend an arm and a leg on arrows either, I like alum arrows as from what I have been reading they fly straighter and are heavier for better penetration. Since I will be a bit bow light this year I think that's best (also for my wallet), or am I wrong.

I plan on going with a set of Toxic arrows but read a thread about slick trick and was wondering if I could use both (guessing prolly not because both would need tuning), which would be better for someones first bow season

also, whats the best way to tune a recurve, paper or bare shaft?

and finally should I be shooting off the shelf or a rest for best results, currently shooting off a rest. 

im pretty good from 10 to 15 yards and come bow season I don't see myself not taking a deer if presented.

thanks for the help, sorry for so maaaaany questions


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## rjwillow (Jun 18, 2013)

Hi Vince... I'll try to hit some of your questions...
I remain a bit skeptical about a 40lb bow for hunting. But all the trad bows that that I have shot and tuned have been for those with less than 28" DL. My main trad bow is a 45# longbow and one of my "students" has a sage in 45#. I would not take anything but a close shot with them if at all. But you will have a better feel for it yourself. You can see how fast the arrow moves and how hard it hits your target. But you can get limbs up to 55# for a reasonable price.
The string that came on the few sages that we've had are not as bad as many other OEM strings. But it is far inferior to what is readily available. I generally make at least 3 strings for each bow I set up. The best one I've found that works on all of them is a 24 strand 8190 endless loop. You can get away with even 18 strands up to about 50lbs. But the 24 strand is the quietest string I've ever made. My second favorite is 16 strands of D10. But just about any modern string (not Dacron) will be MUCH better than the OEM string...
As far as arrows. I always recommend Gold tip Traditionals and feathers ( 4" or 5"). But we all shoot instinctively off the shelf. if you are shooting off of a rest, you can get away with more. If you use a plunger, you can tune a wider range of spines/weights. I limit myself to shelf shooting and fine tune the arrow for the bow. I gave up on aluminum a while ago as I like to shoot a lot and I bend aluminum arrows too much.
As far as arrow choice, you will probably need a .500 spine to start with and almost full length if you want to put a broadhead on it. But you might be able to add some weight up front and use a 400 spine which is easier to get in heavier weight arrows. Look at the spine and GPI specs on arrows, then sort them by price.
As far as tuning, I just did a long post on how I tune a longbow... I will try to find it and save the typing... 
As I said before, I shoot off the shelf by choice. If you are comfortable off of a rest, go for it. It will be a little more forgiving to tuning and form issues...
good luck
rich


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## rjwillow (Jun 18, 2013)

http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=2064423



Vince1 said:


> I currently own a Lh Samick 30# and moving up to a 40# to hunt this season, with my 30 DL I should be pulling roughly 44#. My first concern was that I wasn't going to be getting pass throughs but after reading a bit I feel confident that 44# will do nicely if tuned correctly.
> 
> I would like to make sure I have a nice rig at a decent price.
> 
> ...


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## Vince1 (Jun 27, 2013)

Thanks for the info, I figure with my 30 DL I should be pulling back at least 43 and didn't want to over do it, especially since this will be my first year hunting. 

Range wise Im gonna be under 15 yards, I currently do a six inch shot group at 10 yards. once I get that down under 4 I gonna be at the range more ( only got 10 yards worth of clear space in the house)

is 15 yards a bit to far for what im shooting? 

I also purchased some carbon arrows from Lancaster, I was going with aluminum but the guy I spoke to convinced me to go with carbon with a 125 grain head and use Thunderhead BH's when the season rolls around. (does this sound like a good setup?)

He also convinced me I didn't need a string on the Sage so I got whiskers and Velcro like material for groove silencers to quite my bowstring. (will this work since instead of changing the string? )

will be using your tuning guide soon as I get the bow on Monday
thanks


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## rjwillow (Jun 18, 2013)

No Problem...
43 should be fine and if you feel that you need more, you can always just get another heavier set of limbs.
With some practice, you will be slapping arrows together at 10 yards in no time. 
15 yards is a good range, too. If I were shooting at a living thing, I think 15 yards would be my max for my 45# longbow maybe 20 yards for a 55lb recurve. But that's just me. You have to figure out your own comfort zone and determine what a confident, ethical shot is for you.
I would shoot at 5-10 yards to warm up and move back little by little until you can hold groups at each session. I shoot at 20, 25, 30 and 35 for practice and would do more if I didn't worry about my backstop. I also work with different angles and unknown distances a lot. But I would suggest that even after you've shot some nice groups at different distances, that you come back to 15 and 10 to end your session and make some strong, confident shots.
Lancaster is excellent and I doubt that anyone there would steer you wrong. I gave up on aluminum for my tradbows and only have a few for my compounds. Tired of bending them. Carbon is the way to go. Hopefully they sold you some GT trads in 3555 with feathers. Can't go wrong with those. See how they shoot and check that other post of mine. You will probably shoot those at slightly under full length with 125 grain points and at full length with 100 grain.
As for the string... Yes... the sage does not have a "throwaway' string like many other expensive bows. But a better string makes a huge difference in my opinion. But I am spoiled because I can make anything I want...  The whiskers and string groove silencers are cheap enough. I prefer a little knitting yarn in the string over the whiskers on a tradbow. Less weight and does the same job if not better. I would not put the whiskers on until you tune the bow as you will use the sound of the bow as feedback when tuning brace height.
Let me know how you make out
Good luck with the bow
rich


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## Vince1 (Jun 27, 2013)

just got it and put the groove silencers on, after reading I realized I should have waited, makes sense really will just take em off and put em on after tuning. 

will let ya know, oh and can I tie whiskers on with heavy duty thread? or should I use dental floss?


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## rjwillow (Jun 18, 2013)

Hi Vince
Probably don't need to take the groove silencers off. They shouldn't interfere too much with tuning. Just don't put anything on the string yet. When you do put the string silencers on, you can use dental floss or any strong thread. If you wax the thread, the knows will pull nice and tight and hold better.
What arrows did you get? Check that other post that I linked previously... I just posted some more info that may be helpful to you...
later
rich


Vince1 said:


> just got it and put the groove silencers on, after reading I realized I should have waited, makes sense really will just take em off and put em on after tuning.
> 
> will let ya know, oh and can I tie whiskers on with heavy duty thread? or should I use dental floss?


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## Vince1 (Jun 27, 2013)

predator twos I believe, the guy I spoke to actually suggested the gold tips but I have been put on a budget by the wife with all the gear I been buying in the last few months. 

spent the evenin putting my treestand together and watching the DVD that came with it (Guide Gear 24 29 with some quick sticks ) so if not tmw then sunday I will be doing the arrows. going out scouting this weekend and gonna take the tree stand to screw around with in the woods to get comfy with it.


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## rjwillow (Jun 18, 2013)

Cool... the pred 2s come in some useful spines. 4060 works very well with many trad bows. If you have the 4060 spine I believe that they come full length at 30" or maybe 31" I would leave them full length and try different point weights. A 125grain may be just the ticket without any cutting. I have a few pred 2s for my longbow which is 45lbs. They have 125gr judo points and fly perfect. I have about 20 grains of reinforcement at the tip and about 10 grains of the same at the nock. That stiffens them up a bit. Either way.. if you intend to shoot broadheads with your draw length, you will probably need to leave them full length and play with point weight no matter what. You don't want to draw the sharp stuff back into your shelf of fingers.
Are they fletched already? feathers or vanes? Catch up to you in tha AN
rich


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## Vince1 (Jun 27, 2013)

ok finally got around to tuning my bow. (life issues sorry)

I have two issues, one my arrows are two short, which I just realized. ordered arrows from Lancaster and they set me up with 30 inch arrows with a 30 inch draw length. 

im pretty sure that when put broadheads on the tips they wont fit. not sure though so little help on that please. 

also, my nock point is to the right WAY to the right of my fletch (im a left handed archery) weak spine right? but I don't think that matters since I have to get longer arrows? think I read they should be an inch longer than my DL. correct? 

thanks


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## Vince1 (Jun 27, 2013)

oh and when I pull back on my bow the arrows come past my bow riser sometimes right up on my shelf, had my wife watching on a few and she took a pic for me


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## rjwillow (Jun 18, 2013)

Hi Vince
I think that the pred 2s actually are 30" at full length. What is the spine that you have now? Really doesn't matter because they are too short going by your pics but just curious... Go with the GT trads for best results or if you want to save a little bit, you can get the expedition hunters. 3555 spine and leave those full length.
You said that you were shooting of the shelf. But that thing that your arrow is resting on is a rest not a shelf. I would still have the arrows fletched with 5" feathers as it will work with the rest or shelf and will be more forgiving.
Another thing... you said that "sometimes" the arrow comes back past the shelf upon draw... There is no sometimes in archery...  You need to draw to EXACTLY the same length EVERY TIME if you want any hope of accuracy.
ANd, yes, you want the broadhead as far away from your hand as you can manage. You don't want to get excited and bleed before the deer does.
As far as your comment about nock point right... I think that you mean that the arrows are hitting with the nock to the right of the point. That would mean that it may be a little weak in spine. But only if it is actually FLYING that way. You should be able to watch the arrow flight to confirm this. Don't just go by how they stick in the target.
But also make sure that you have a comfortable and repeatable draw and clean release before making a determination. Shoot a bunch of groups and only count the shots that you feel were pretty good..
You may be able to use those arrows with lighter points (than what is on there now) for practice if you can get them to fly straight. But for broadheads you will need longer arrows. Full length GT 3555 spine will work. At full length of 32" you may be able to use a 100 grain BH. But most likely you will need 125. But that is a good thing. Get some 5/16" 100 gr and 125 field tips and you will be good to go.
Good luck
rich


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## Vince1 (Jun 27, 2013)

Had my wife measure and i was about half an inch difference. Still working on consistency. But when i shot groups. I would shoot fletched and then bare shat and they all had knock left of where the poit hit . I am left haned mind u so i beliece thats weak spine. 

Think im gonna go to the shop near me. Got these from lancaster and with the season so close now dont wana screw around.

Will get the right arrows then tune em and call it a day. Let ya know what i get but i think im goin back to aluminum.


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## dschonbrun (Nov 14, 2012)

Hi Vince,

Before buying tags for a hunting trip, please check the local laws around minimum poundage. Some states have minimum's of #45.

Second there are a multitude of good arrows out there. What you need to focus on is finding the qualities that will best match your needs. I use a program called On-Target 2, which allows users to put in the bow information and calculate the bow's KE, and also try different arrow and component combinations to optimize spine flexion, arrow speed, and penetration. It's a pretty cheap program.... about 29.99 for a single user if I remember.

Cheers and best of luck.

D


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## Vince1 (Jun 27, 2013)

Thanks but i called lancaster and they adimted they gave me the wrong spine. Guy said they gave me a 400 spine when i need a 500. Sending me some test arrows and i will tune with those then order. Got 2016 alluminum camo hunters at 32 lenght. That sound about right?


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## rjwillow (Jun 18, 2013)

Nock left means weak for a righty. For a lefty, it would be opposite. So you are overspined right now. But going from a 400 spine to a 500 is going to a weaker spine. So Lancaster is getting you in the right direction. A 2016 or 2018 is around a 500 spine. But I hesitate to recommend any of the cheaper aluminum arrows as they bend too easily. As for the nock left and nock right and such... you really need to work on your form and consistent draw length before you can really tune you arrows. You need to tune YOU first. Then also, you need to watch the arrow flight rather than just how they end up in the target
You are going in the right direction so far... A 500 spine 32" arrow should get you close enough to vary point weight and be able to tell what you need to do with your arrows. But being a 30" draw, you will probably cutting an inch or less to be able to use a standard 100 grain or 125 grain broadhead.
I know it is your goal to use broadheads and hunt. But I would concentrate on getting your gear ( and your skills) in order with as standard arrow and point weight as possible. When you can group well at 10, 15 and 20 yards, then begin work with BHs as it will bring in another set of challenges to conquer.
I do have to add this and you can take my advise or not... it is up to you... Please don't be in a rush to shoot at a living creature until you have total confidence in your gear and skills. That may mean next year or waiting until spring turkey season. Or it can mean sitting in a stand and not taking shots this time around. It's all part of the game and it's better than wounding an animal and not recovering it. Draw weight and legalities aside, it is your responsibility to only take strong, confident and ethical shot... I'll stop preaching now... 
have fun
rich


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## Roughrider (Oct 19, 2012)

You should check in the traditional forum here, there a lot of very god guys there that shoot trad gear and can give you a lot of help. For my two cents worth if you havent bought broadheads yet you should look at a coc design like zwickey or the muzzy phantoms which I prefer. The thunderheads are great heads for a wheel bow but the coc design penetrate better with the slower speeds you get with trad gear.


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## Roughrider (Oct 19, 2012)

Good guys!


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## Vince1 (Jun 27, 2013)

so I broke down and went to a shop to get a proper setup. turns out im pulling back 50 pounds as per his scale, game me a few unfletched arrows to shoot and checked my flight I believe I ended up with 2216 if I rember correctly. 

nice shop, always busy, but I got there when they were closing and he stuck around for a bit till I was good. 

as far as my form im pretty good up to 15 yards, as far as taking shots and live animals I plan on only taking shots I know I can make, and from what I have been told about my area in ny I will be lucky to see deer in my range with a traditional bow.

so we shall see, thanks for all the help


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