# D-Loop Height and Steadier Aim



## Coug09 (Feb 4, 2007)

That's an awfully long front bar and short rear bar combo. Have you tried a 15" rear?


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## sevanseriesta (Jul 7, 2017)

I don't have one available to me.


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## lees (Feb 10, 2017)

Too much mass weight can cause the "dip bang" also. If my setup is too heavy, I'll start to drop out of the gold right as I pull through the last part of the shot as I begin to tire. I do the yanking the bow up to the sky thing (AKA the "onion") after the shot, and the shot itself goes low. So a free fix to test before tearing into the bow itself might be simply reducing mass weight - take some weight off in general and see if that helps the dropouts.

Moving the D loop can help because it pivots the bow a little bit, and the amount of pivot might make the grip more optimal. Just depends on if the grip is currently too high or too low. 

On my PSE, I removed the speed nocks from the main string; the result was the bareshaft now tunes with the dloop 1/4" to 5/16" lower than previously. But the unintended consequence is the bow holds much better, because the grip was too low before.

lee.


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## sevanseriesta (Jul 7, 2017)

lees said:


> Too much mass weight can cause the "dip bang" also. If my setup is too heavy, I'll start to drop out of the gold right as I pull through the last part of the shot as I begin to tire. I do the yanking the bow up to the sky thing (AKA the "onion") after the shot, and the shot itself goes low. So a free fix to test before tearing into the bow itself might be simply reducing mass weight - take some weight off in general and see if that helps the dropouts.
> 
> Moving the D loop can help because it pivots the bow a little bit, and the amount of pivot might make the grip more optimal. Just depends on if the grip is currently too high or too low.
> 
> ...


I have the lowest mass weight I can handle without causing the waggle (Side to side) or circling of the target. I shoot better with more weight but become tired fast. If I could get my bow to 8 3/4 lbs and make it through every end I would be happy. But for now I have to use the lower weight.

I feel like my grip is a little High. I'm shooting a Halon X with stock grip. I might see if I can alter it a little so I can hold lower not sure if you would help or not.


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## wv hoyt man (Feb 17, 2012)

I really think you need a 15-20 inch back bar.
You also need to have someone who understands bow set up to watch you and your bars.
If nothing else go to shorter bars and build up your archery muscles.
It takes practice and a lot of it to get certain muscles built up.


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## wv hoyt man (Feb 17, 2012)

One thing to be able to make a dozen good shots. It another thing to make 60-80 great shots.
Practice is where it is at. But you really need to make it a good practice not just shooting arrows.
Lighten up the bow to where you can handle practice and 60 shots that are good.


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## WPGibson (May 24, 2011)

if u make your top draw stop hit 1/16" before the bottom one does it will help to keep u up


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## Bobmuley (Jan 14, 2004)

WPGibson said:


> if u make your top draw stop hit 1/16" before the bottom one does it will help to keep u up


I know it's thrown out there a lot. 

Imo it's mostly a short term placebo in most cases. Most cases it's a matter of form. 






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## grantmac (May 31, 2007)

When you say it falls put do you mean out of the X or out of the spot entirely? How much float are we talking?


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## sevanseriesta (Jul 7, 2017)

Out of the 10 spot completely. I have spent hours on my form and I shoot anywhere from 150 to 300 arrows a day. I haven't been shooting long less then a year and with my new bow I want to get it setup to shoot competitively. On a Vegas 300 I'm shooting average around 281. I will try to get some pics of my form so you guys can see.


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## lees (Feb 10, 2017)

sevanseriesta said:


> I have the lowest mass weight I can handle without causing the waggle (Side to side) or circling of the target. I shoot better with more weight but become tired fast. If I could get my bow to 8 3/4 lbs and make it through every end I would be happy. But for now I have to use the lower weight.
> 
> I feel like my grip is a little High. I'm shooting a Halon X with stock grip. I might see if I can alter it a little so I can hold lower not sure if you would help or not.


Again this is just my experience, so this is only a suggestion. For me, a side to side waggle - and I've had that issue - turns out not to be a mass weight issue. In my particular case, it was too long of a draw length, not engaging the back muscles quite right and an incorrect use of small muscles in the bow arm. I masked it for a while with stabilization, but ultimately it turned out to be a form/execution problem in my case. I worked on it with my 10" stab and nothing else fitted to my bow until I could completely relax the small muscles in the bow arm and the waggle went away. I'm almost at the point now where it's gone with no stab on the bow at all, but I have to be really on it to be that good .

So it might, repeat might, be the case that adding mass weight is masking a wiggle problem for you that has another underlying cause (which might be the grip issue you;re referring to). I only say that because I discovered the same thing for me. The overall effect might still be too much mass weight in general, which is now helping to cause the dip-bang. Again, because that's what I've experienced. 

So all that is just a suggestion at something to possibly look at and definitely not a firm diagnosis of anything.

lee.


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## lees (Feb 10, 2017)

Bobmuley said:


> I know it's thrown out there a lot.
> 
> Imo it's mostly a short term placebo in most cases. Most cases it's a matter of form.


My experience also. The times I've tried compensating with cam timing I still have the dip-bang or wiggle, etc., *and* now I'm also slinging the bareshaft all over the place in addition .

lee.


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## RCR_III (Mar 19, 2011)

As you pointed out you can test the waters with the limb bolts. 

If you get more than a turn out of the limb bolt you'll likely see/feel some differences in cam timing and draw length, but unless you're way off with the loop height to start with you probably won't need more than a turn. I usually find my best spot within 1/4-1/2 a turn. 

Once you've found the best height for the loop what I do is place my bubble levels back on the bow string and arrow. Then if you backed out the bottom limb bolt, raising the loop, you'll raise the arrow up until both bubbles are level. (This is because you created a nock high situation by raising the loop) Then you can place the limb bolt back into its original setting and when you go to re-tie your nocking points and loop you'll do this with the arrow level again. This will give you the same loop height you had prior with the limb bolt backed out. 

This is shown in the video you mentioned above that you watched at the 7 minute mark so you can have a visual on what I typed here. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bupCwFEftQY


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

Reading over, one can only move the d-loop so far. Move the d-loop and then other things must change. 

34" front is kind of long, but shouldn't give adverse effects if weighted properly.

Nothing wrong with a 12" back bar though some feel 15" would be better. Really, length allows one to use less weight on the stab and bars.

I don't believe in one having a grip too high unless a weird hand placement. And of course, the grip starts before drawing the bow. See pic of Levi Morgan's hand.

Shooting less than a year....Leave the limb bolts alone. Just make sure they are equal if turned out.

Bobbing could be grip, could be stab weight, could be wrong approach to getting on target. Aim a bit high and let pin come down is far easier than trying to raise the pin. If on target and have side to side, add weight to front. If bobbing, up and down, add weight to back bar.

Stab set up. There is a formula, but it's more to get one in the ball park. Often said is 1 to 3 ratio, but more of 1 to 2 ratio is probably more correct and depends on the length of stab and back bar (s). My weights give of 1 to 2 ratio, 7 ounces on front and 14 ounces on the back bar. 

Mass weight isn't the issue as of what I've read and one shouldn't go for mass weight, but build up to it if needed. 

I don't believe in the bow balancer tool. It is not my hand, is not my bow arm, nor my shoulder, doesn't reflect my form and it sure isn't me loaded up at full draw. 

I've got some age on me, but doesn't effect me for bow weight. My bow weighs a hair under 8 pounds. I have a 30" front with 7 ounces and a 10 degree down quick disconnect. I have a 12" back bar with 14 ounces and the angle kind of matching the front 10 degree down. It is also set out about 15 degrees (guessing - moved it to what gave best feel and results).


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

Form means a bunch.....Anyone around to watch you?


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## sevanseriesta (Jul 7, 2017)

SonnyThomas said:


> Reading over, one can only move the d-loop so far. Move the d-loop and then other things must change.
> 
> 34" front is kind of long, but shouldn't give adverse effects if weighted properly.
> 
> ...


Sonny thanks for the response. I have done the formula that you discuss and it is pretty close I have tried to take weigh off the back and put more on and it doesn't seem to help the bobbing issue. 

I feel like my form is pretty perfect. I seen some video that was taken of me shooting and If I was coaching my kids I wouldn't change a thing. I will have an advanced lesson on Thursday to verify, but in the past he has said form looks excellent. 

Grip though could be an issue. On this new bow it just feels high, like the picture above my finger sits above the shelf I don't really like it. Mine doesn't sit quite as high, but its up there.

On my old bow if I turn the bottom limb bolt it gets rid of the issue all together. I shot 30 arrows and it didn't bob one time. But that was the old bow. I don't have my new one with me to try.


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## Alabamadog (Mar 16, 2015)

The grip on that bow is kind of straight and I kind of struggled with it myself. A shrewd or Hda grip may be solution. Allowing for the grip under the shelf while still having low grippressure


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## sevanseriesta (Jul 7, 2017)

I may try the d-loop first its a cheaper option... I just bought the bow so I'm not really wanting to drop anymore...


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## Rick! (Aug 10, 2008)

sevanseriesta said:


> Out of the 10 spot completely. I have spent hours on my form and I shoot anywhere from 150 to 300 arrows a day. I haven't been shooting long less then a year and with my new bow I want to get it setup to shoot competitively. On a Vegas 300 I'm shooting average around 281. I will try to get some pics of my form so you guys can see.


You need to see a coach, not post "How's my form" pix here.


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## lees (Feb 10, 2017)

sevanseriesta said:


> Grip though could be an issue. On this new bow it just feels high, like the picture above my finger sits above the shelf I don't really like it. Mine doesn't sit quite as high, but its up there.
> 
> On my old bow if I turn the bottom limb bolt it gets rid of the issue all together. I shot 30 arrows and it didn't bob one time. But that was the old bow. I don't have my new one with me to try.


Your impression of the grip could be the smoking gun. I've learned to trust when a grip feels too high or too low for me, so you might be on to what's wrong. 

As Robert says above, the limb bolt adjustment option would be a 0.00 dollar way to try a different d-loop height. It may move it enough that you can detect an improvement or not in your hold. Then later, you can actually move the d-loop and rest to a more improved position.

Like I said, I did this accidently on my PSE with the speed-nock experiment and the lower d-loop completely transformed the bow for me...

lee.


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## Bobmuley (Jan 14, 2004)

sevanseriesta said:


> I feel like my form is pretty perfect. ...


You can have good to perfect form, but execution must be as well. The second you easeup it'll want to drop.


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## aread (Dec 25, 2009)

To find out if loop height will help you hold steadier, try it. It's worth it to learn to move or replace your loop yourself. It doesn't require a bow press, just a set of needle nose pliers. Be sure to move in very small increments. The sweet spot can be somewhat elusive.

If you decide to move your peep also, be sure to NOT move it with the string under tension. It's very easy to cut a strand of your string. This is one of the operations that requires a press. Portable presses are adequate for this.

Be sure to hold the tension of full draw in your back muscles. GRIV's video is excellent in describing this. It will do more to correct the dip bang than anything else.

Allen


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## sevanseriesta (Jul 7, 2017)

Thanks again so much guys. I will know more in a couple days. I will let you know what my coach says. I meet with him on Thursday midday.


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## Crow Terminator (Jan 21, 2003)

I will give a disclaimer that I am not a Pro. I am just going to relate what I found that has helped me. All season long I have struggled with the same exact issue as you. The left/right was good but it was the vertical impacts I was having trouble with...those dip bang things. 

I spent a lot of money trying to find mine. All kind of stabilizer bars, different lengths, different weight combos, etc. I played with cam timing, d-loop height, etc. I just couldn't figure out what the problem was. One thing I did find that helped a little was my shot timing. The quicker I got the shot off, the better...but it got to the point where I really couldn't settle in and "aim" well if I did that.

Then out of a fluke, I was at the state shoot last weekend and they spot checked arrow speed. I was the one they selected. It suddenly dawned on me that I had not shot my bow through the chrony since making an arrow change a couple weeks prior to the shoot. I was afraid I was going to be over the speed limit. To my surprise...my arrow came through it at 261 fps. Say what? After the shoot, I was playing around and decided I would crank the poundage down a turn or two since I had room to play with. I ended up going 2 turns....I couldn't remember why I had backed it out that far in the first place. Well I started shooting it just to see what it would do and in doing so...guess what was gone. The pin bobble. Now I can't tell you why that had anything to do with it but more holding weight seems to have had the biggest impact for fixing my problem than anything else I have tried.


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## RCR_III (Mar 19, 2011)

Crow Terminator said:


> I will give a disclaimer that I am not a Pro. I am just going to relate what I found that has helped me. All season long I have struggled with the same exact issue as you. The left/right was good but it was the vertical impacts I was having trouble with...those dip bang things.
> 
> I spent a lot of money trying to find mine. All kind of stabilizer bars, different lengths, different weight combos, etc. I played with cam timing, d-loop height, etc. I just couldn't figure out what the problem was. One thing I did find that helped a little was my shot timing. The quicker I got the shot off, the better...but it got to the point where I really couldn't settle in and "aim" well if I did that.
> 
> Then out of a fluke, I was at the state shoot last weekend and they spot checked arrow speed. I was the one they selected. It suddenly dawned on me that I had not shot my bow through the chrony since making an arrow change a couple weeks prior to the shoot. I was afraid I was going to be over the speed limit. To my surprise...my arrow came through it at 261 fps. Say what? After the shoot, I was playing around and decided I would crank the poundage down a turn or two since I had room to play with. I ended up going 2 turns....I couldn't remember why I had backed it out that far in the first place. Well I started shooting it just to see what it would do and in doing so...guess what was gone. The pin bobble. Now I can't tell you why that had anything to do with it but more holding weight seems to have had the biggest impact for fixing my problem than anything else I have tried.


It could have been shortening the draw length from adding turns into the limb bolts. The little shorter draw length would help your shoulder be back into the joint more from where it was prior and the body would support the bow arm better this way. It could also give you a little more leverage over pulling into the back wall depending on how you're anchoring.


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## carlosii (Feb 25, 2007)

I may be way out of the ball park here but it sounds like it might be a touch of target panic. When you draw, center the pin, and then the pin drops low and you're unable to get the pin back to center, you might be fighting more and just weight balance.

When you try to keep that pin in the center you are, imho, forgetting about what you're shooting at and making the pin the target, so to speak. You're neglecting what you're really wanting to aim at and relying on holding that pin solid in the center. Can't be done.

Good luck and I hope you get it worked out.


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## graydragon2 (Nov 16, 2014)

Check out this video by GRIV. It's the first video. http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=3590314#/topics/3590314

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## redman (Feb 22, 2003)

When I have my draw length or the loop length I have problem with pin going low I spend most for my time tuning getting the two length right on


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## dani1967 (Aug 10, 2017)

I have the lowest mass weight I can handle without causing the waggle (Side to side) or circling of the target. I shoot better with more weight but become tired fast. If I could get my bow to 8 3/4 lbs and make it through every end I would be happy.


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## dani1967 (Aug 10, 2017)

I have the lowest mass weight I can handle without causing the waggle (Side to side) or circling of the target. I shoot better with more weight but become tired fast. If I could get my bow to 8 3/4 lbs and make it through every end I would be happy. But for now I have to use the lower weight..


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## dani1967 (Aug 10, 2017)

I have the lowest mass weight I can handle without causing the waggle (Side to side) or circling of the target. I shoot better with more weight but become tired fast. If I could get my bow to 8 3/4 lbs and make it through every end I would be happy. But for now I have to use the lower weight.,


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## dani1967 (Aug 10, 2017)

I have the lowest mass weight I can handle without causing the waggle (Side to side) or circling of the target. I shoot better with more weight but become tired fast. If I could get my bow to 8 3/4 lbs and make it through every end I would be happy. But for now I have to use the lower weight.'


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## dani1967 (Aug 10, 2017)

I have the lowest mass weight I can handle without causing the waggle (Side to side) or circling of the target. I shoot better with more weight but become tired fast. If I could get my bow to 8 3/4 lbs and make it through every end I would be happy. But for now I have to use the lower weight.-


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## dani1967 (Aug 10, 2017)

I have the lowest mass weight I can handle without causing the waggle (Side to side) or circling of the target. I shoot better with more weight but become tired fast. If I could get my bow to 8 3/4 lbs and make it through every end I would be happy. But for now I have to use the lower weight._


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## dani1967 (Aug 10, 2017)

I have the lowest mass weight I can handle without causing the waggle (Side to side) or circling of the target. I shoot better with more weight but become tired fast. If I could get my bow to 8 3/4 lbs and make it through every end I would be happy. But for now I have to use the lower weight...


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## dani1967 (Aug 10, 2017)

I have the lowest mass weight I can handle without causing the waggle (Side to side) or circling of the target. I shoot better with more weight but become tired fast. If I could get my bow to 8 3/4 lbs and make it through every end I would be happy. But for now I have to use the lower weight.''.


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## carlosii (Feb 25, 2007)

I understand that dani1967 has the lowest mass weight he can handle without causing the waggle. :wink:


Sorry dani1967...I know how these computers can mess with ya. Been there...done that. :set1_violent002:


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## aread (Dec 25, 2009)

dani1967 said:


> I have the lowest mass weight I can handle without causing the waggle (Side to side) or circling of the target. I shoot better with more weight but become tired fast. If I could get my bow to 8 3/4 lbs and make it through every end I would be happy. But for now I have to use the lower weight.''.


You might contact AT member Mahly. He's the moderator here and can remove the multiple posts. Unless you are trying to build post count. 

Allen


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## monstroChillR (Jul 26, 2016)

dani1967 said:


> I have the lowest mass weight I can handle without causing the waggle (Side to side) or circling of the target. I shoot better with more weight but become tired fast. If I could get my bow to 8 3/4 lbs and make it through every end I would be happy. But for now I have to use the lower weight.''.


Sounds like yoh need to work on your breathing, taking your time between shots and hit the gym. 

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## carlosii (Feb 25, 2007)

And sometimes it is not the D loop....it is in the way you grip the bow.


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## sevanseriesta (Jul 7, 2017)

After several weeks of working with the coach we changed a couple things. Nothing Major but the differences were major.

1st we changed the way I was holding my release. I am using the Evolution from Carter, I was putting to much finger on the release. Or a better picture, I was wrapping my fingers around the release. I found if I did this it helped bring my anchor spot in a little. He advised me to loosen up my fingers and put the release on the first valley of my fingers. I felt like I shot a little better with this as I wasn't gripping the release. No results to confirm though.

2nd we changed the Mods to a 27.5 draw I believe. I think this helped out a lot, I kept track for a week of shooting and my average score went up 7 points. I don't have issues holding on target anymore, no major dips at all.

3rd we opened my stance up just a tad bit more. Felt awkward at first but now it feels natural.

So no changes to my grip or D loop were made. I will shoot this way for about a month before anything additional is tinkered with.


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## Bobmuley (Jan 14, 2004)

sevanseriesta said:


> After several weeks of working with the coach we changed a couple things. Nothing Major but the differences were major.
> 
> 1st we changed the way I was holding my release. I am using the Evolution from Carter, I was putting to much finger on the release. Or a better picture, I was wrapping my fingers around the release. I found if I did this it helped bring my anchor spot in a little. He advised me to loosen up my fingers and put the release on the first valley of my fingers. I felt like I shot a little better with this as I wasn't gripping the release. No results to confirm though.
> 
> ...


Thanks for getting back with us!

Was that shorter than before?


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## RCR_III (Mar 19, 2011)

sevanseriesta said:


> After several weeks of working with the coach we changed a couple things. Nothing Major but the differences were major.
> 
> 1st we changed the way I was holding my release. I am using the Evolution from Carter, I was putting to much finger on the release. Or a better picture, I was wrapping my fingers around the release. I found if I did this it helped bring my anchor spot in a little. He advised me to loosen up my fingers and put the release on the first valley of my fingers. I felt like I shot a little better with this as I wasn't gripping the release. No results to confirm though.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the update. I'm curious though, if you have a coach you're working with; why are you coming on here for help?


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

RCR_III said:


> Thanks for the update. I'm curious though, if you have a coach you're working with; why are you coming on here for help?


Good point..... One-on-one is better than us here and you wherever you are....

We ain't there. We can't see what's truly going on. We "jump" something, ride it to death and it may not be that something...??? I forget now when this 6 weeks Indoor 3D Money League started, 8, 9 or 10 weeks ago. I started practicing at the shop before the League started, doesn't have the best lighting. I was a having a terrible time, struggling, not holding well, but then I wasn't see well either. Pulled the orifice in my Specialty peep and went up one size. All looked better, but sort of had lingering doubt. First night of League I shot a 158, 8 points up. So kept the next size orifice in. The next 2nd League night I shot a 160, 10 up. Confidence building, I was holding well, pin not wandering. In the weeks that followed I shot, 164, 166, and 166. So I averaged 13 up throughout and won. Nope, not a whole lot of contestants, but still feels good coming out on top. So having a larger peep opening helped settle the pin and see better.
Note; Like all Indoor leagues I've shot this one was no different. We started out with 15 or 16 and within 2 weeks were down to 8 and then 7. I didn't win enough money to cover my entry fee and 6 weeks of round trips to the event.

I've been testing peeps for the past 2 or 3 weeks and I got where my groups looked like I had target panic. I couldn't put 2 shots together. Taking one test peep out and putting in a Specialty peep didn't help. What it was, I couldn't hold well, rushing my shots (I thought) all because I couldn't see well. So I had got lost in the quest to prove/disprove the test peeps. I went up in orifice size for the Specialty peep and up in size with test peeps. All is well again. I was using 3 bows, one my hunting bow with 33 1/2" ata. It is shooting so well I believe I could hammer a 5 spot pretty good with a bunch of Xs.


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## sevanseriesta (Jul 7, 2017)

RCR_III said:


> Thanks for the update. I'm curious though, if you have a coach you're working with; why are you coming on here for help?


I asked for your assistance because I only see my coach twice a week. Sometime I have questions when my coach is unavailable. It is nice to hear a difference in opinions. Although you guys are correct you can't see what I'm doing, I can still check myself to make sure that the appropriate form and techniques are being used. I have stated before that I am still very new to Archery. 

It's nice to hear all of the possibilities and work on them. I think it makes me a better archer.


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## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

You are a interesting guy being a first year shooter and already having a target bow and a coach you are seeing a couple times per week. Very few of us have had that type of beginning into archery. 

I read through most of the thread and it seems to me you are heavy sided on making adjustments to equipment to try and fix things and figure out the puzzle of your shooting. I would suggest stepping back from the equipment and asking yourself, 

1. Is the bow tuned decent?
2. Is my draw length solid?
3. Is my draw weight something I enjoy shooting without getting tired?

If you answer yes to those questions then just leave the bow alone for a few months and allow yourself to dedicate your training to your execution and nothing else. This includes shooting scoring rounds on vegas faces and 5-spot targets. You can and should shoot those faces but do not do scoring rounds. 

What do you do when shooting a vegas face?

You shoot smoothly executed shots over and over again until you feel a PERFECT EXECUTION, When you feel a perfect execution stop for a few seconds and think and visualize what made that a perfect execution and then try and repeat that perfect execution. You will fail and fail and fail to repeat for a while and then it will start happening until it becomes second nature. Sooner or later you will feel a even more perfect execution and then you start over.

During this type of training you will be hitting perfect when you don't deserve to hit perfect with poor executions and you must resist the temptation to be satisfied with the arrow hitting dead center, the goal is perfect smooth executed shots and accuracy is not your priority. 


I do have some thoughts on your shooting if you are interested in hearing them that are not equipment based other than your bow must be solid on draw length setting.


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## sevanseriesta (Jul 7, 2017)

Padgett said:


> You are a interesting guy being a first year shooter and already having a target bow and a coach you are seeing a couple times per week. Very few of us have had that type of beginning into archery.
> 
> I read through most of the thread and it seems to me you are heavy sided on making adjustments to equipment to try and fix things and figure out the puzzle of your shooting. I would suggest stepping back from the equipment and asking yourself,
> 
> ...


Thank you very much for your response. As of right now, I am extremely comfortable with the draw length. Everything holds very well, arrows are flying straight with no fishtailing, or looping. Paper tuning makes perfect bullet holes, and walk back tuning tells me that my center shot is perfect. The one thing is that my rest is as high as it goes and there is a slight forward lean to the arrow. But the arrow is flying perfect. I considered dropping the d-loop to make the arrow perfectly level, but haven't messed with it cause I am shooting so well with the current setup.

When I first started shooting this bow, I was shooting 273 to 276 on a vegas round. Last week I consistently shot 283's. I shoot everyday, and practice on 3 spot targets. My new practice reg amend is:

24 Arrows in the morning working on perfecting form on a 3 spot target. These arrows are not scored. As you mentioned this is purely to make sure that I am setting up properly and I am going through all the steps of shooting. I know when I make a mistakes before the arrow hits the target, I know what I did wrong, and how I "Think" I should fix it. I am shooting all arrows at 20 yards. I would like to practice from a longer distance but my back yard just doesn't allow it. After 22 yards the ground is very uneven.

Later in the day normally after lunch, I shoot a scoring round. I shoot 5, 6 arrow ends. I am used to shooting 3 arrow ends, I am trying to shoot 6 arrows to force me to shoot through fatigue and still execute properly. My plan is to shoot this way for a while and then do a scoring round like we would in league. I track every shot I make on an app on my phone so I can see where I am missing. This tells me if I am consistently shooting left or right, high or low. I haven't adjusted my sight at all to compensate. I am again working on perfecting form to make the correct shot. I am quickly seeing my groups getting smaller and smaller. What used to be the size of a size 4 soccer ball is quickly getting close to a softball for 24 arrows.

I have started shooting less arrows a day and working on quality over quantity. My scores are now right with my old bow. I think I should easily get past that with a few more weeks of strict practice.

I would love to hear your thoughts, I don't shy away from constructive criticism.


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## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

Yesterday right when I posted the first time I had a few other things to talk about and have forgotten them so I read through you last post and a few things to open up did surface so i am going to talk about them.

When shooting indoor I have found that when you shoot alone on a range you can do a lot of stuff that will work awesome, I have shot over 200 x's in a row before using different firing engines and releases etc but the moment I step on a shooting line with other people those things failed horribly. So, and here is the important part of indoor. Keep shooting and keep a open mind and pay attention to the things that are working under pressure. Write them down on a piece of paper so you don't forget them and these things need to become the fundamental things in your shooting that you can rely on over time under pressure to take care of you. Then each time you get on the shooting line under pressure you have narrowed down the things that attack your scoring and in the end you will gain tons of confidence.

So here is a small list of some things that have helped me:

1. In practice I can shoot any speed setting on my hinge and produce good Shawn shooting but in competition I need to have my hinge set so that when the nerves hit and my hand gets stiff I can still fire. So in practice I shoot with a faster hinge setting than really needed get used to it so that when I step on the shooting line I can still fire.

2. I lay a fresh target down and shoot a good chunk of arrows into a old shot up target and then I put up my fresh one and only shoot one end into it, I take it down and repair the holes the best I can and then I put it back up 20 or so arrows later and shoot another end. I find that fresh targets are usually when I miss a 10 ring or x so this allows me to practice shooting a fresh face all the time.

3. I don't warm up when I come into a range, I put up a fresh target and shoot a scoring round right now with no warm ups at all. This way I have to perform right out of the truck with no idea of how good I am that day. 

4. Invite someone to the range who doesn't shoot a bow but they know you are a good shooter. I find that I shoot really good with my buddies who already know my ability level and if I shoot with a pro indoor shooter I shoot really strong because I am not a pro and they are my superior. But if you take a guy that is just my friend and he is watching me shoot it causes me more pressure because I don't want him to see me miss at all not even one time so I have more nerves with him than a pro shooter. This allows me to experience nerves at my local range and prepare for a actual league night.

5. Move your dang sight, when I started indoor I refused to move my sight but as I have shot over the years I have realized that you must trust your execution more than the bow being perfect so if you are hitting a little right move the sight right now and not later, just do a single click and for most sights that doesn't hardly move the arrow at all but mentally it allows you to give the confidence in your shooting and that you are correcting the arrow.

As far as specific actual shooting things:

1. Good jump forward of the bow straight at the target in my follow through. 

2. Very neutral grip, I don't want to push forward with the tip or bottom of my grip at all. I want to feel a nice even pressure that my hand is giving to the bow at all times. If I push forward with the top of the grip my arrows go out the bottom and if I push with the bottom of the grip they go out the top. I sight in my bow with a neutral good grip so it is dead on with that good one.

3. Back Tension Preload: For me once I adopted preload into my shooting everything changed and I became a much better competition shooter who can shoot right through some nervous energy. When I was a valley sitter I suffered anytime the nerves showed up but preload allows me to shoot solid shots and move on through the day.

4. Minimal Face contact with bow string

5. Reset Peep to a 20 yard setting instead of my 3d setting so I am not fighting with the peep all winter.

6. Minimal minimal minimal minimal amount of effort to fire the release, for me management of the body and not having to do extra or big amounts of work to fire are the key to me shooting really good at my hightest level. 

7. Absolutely never get late in my shot window and decide that If I just add a little more pressure or rotation it will fire. Almost all of my misses come from this stupid decision. I run my shot and if it doesn't fire during my window I let down and start over. When I do this I rarely miss.


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## davidpogue762 (Sep 10, 2017)

Too much mass weight can cause the "dip bang" also. If my setup is too heavy, I'll start to drop out of the gold right as I pull through the last part of the shot as I begin to tire. I do the yanking the bow up to the sky thing (AKA the "onion") after the shot, and the shot itself goes low. So a free fix to test before tearing into the bow itself might be simply reducing mass weight - take some weight off in general and see if that helps the dropouts.

Moving the D loop can help because it pivots the bow a little bit, and the amount of pivot might make the grip more optimal. Just depends on if the grip is currently too high or too low. 

On my PSE, I removed the speed nocks from the main string; the result was the bareshaft now tunes with the dloop 1/4" to 5/16" lower than previously. But the unintended consequence is the bow holds much better, because the grip was too low before.


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