# Trad/Recurve Bow With Long Draw Length?



## Kaska (Sep 8, 2019)

Hey guys, 

What kind of options are available for guys with long draws in the trad/recurve world? I’m 6’3 but with my monkey arms I’m shooting a 32” draw. 

I’ve been wanting to get a recurve for a few years now. I’ve been looking at the Hoyt Satori 21” riser + long limbs @40#. I don’t plan to hunt with the recurve without lots of practice first but I’m a bit concerned about hauling a 66” bow into a stand. Maybe it doesn’t matter but I’ve got virtually no experience with a recurve and don’t want to smack branches around when I’m up in a tree. 

Would love to hear some perspective from you guys. 

Thanks!


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## Hank D Thoreau (Dec 9, 2008)

If you want to understand how a long draw impacts draw weight, energy and speed, take a look at this.

https://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=5725161&p=1110779753#post1110779753

I have a 32 inch draw but do not hunt. Matt Potter used to be active here. He was an excellent competitive archer and hunter and had a 32 inch draw. He has not been active in awhile.

First, beware of the guy with a 28 inch draw suggesting what to do. You have to experience long draws, or at least coach long draw archers to understand the problems we face.

You are going to be making a compromise. I would imagine it is no different sitting in a tree. You are going to have to figure where those long arms are going to go (I am a rock climber so I have a lot of experience hanging places and belaying with my long arms).

The 66 inch bow you described is likely fairly shootable. I don't like 66 inches because I feel like I am hitting a wall during the draw cycle. That's me. Some folks are able to power through the stack so they don't feel the wall I feel.

The main thing is getting your holding weight right. The post I linked to addresses the linear approximation of the draw force curve. It will not give you an exact holding weight. I have tested this against results in my bow test database.

It will tell you a bit about properties of bows. It also makes the point that you cannot use the 2 pound/inch rule on any bow. Mostly, it tells you that you can get away with holding a lot less weight because you are going to store a huge amount on energy going from 28 to 32 inches.

A person with a 28 inch draw would have to hold almost 50 pounds to get the same energy as you get at 32...and energy is what counts, not weight. You put energy into the arrow. 

40 pound limbs on a 21 inch risers is going to give you a pretty heavy bow, possibly too heavy. Certainly too heavy for someone just starting out with a recurve. There are many posts on good starting weights. I am sure others will mention this.

And one more point, and I am interested in what the tree stand archers have to say about this. Much of your strength comes from your legs and core. 

Are you able to fully engage the strength from your legs and core in a tree stand? If not, do you account for that when spec'ing your equipment?

What I am suggesting is that what might work on the ground, would over bow you if you cannot take full advantage of strength from your whole body during the shot.


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## balkanboy (Nov 9, 2012)

You should be fine with 66" bow. I have 31" draw and hunt at the moment with 66" bow. Don't feel any issue with bow length as a matter a fact have a 68" bow on order that I plan to hunt next season.
Hank gave you great advice, make sure that you are not overbowed to start. I would start with no more than 30# - 35# at your draw, maybe even less. With your draw length you will have more than enough power for Whitetail with 40# at your draw. 

Marko 

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## woof156 (Apr 3, 2018)

With recurves it is not only what you and yank back to your anchor but how much can you hold there without thinking about it and letting your bow hand settle down (no shaking or torquing) before you release the arrow. The hold and pause will take 3-5 seconds. Shot after shot. Draw and comfortable hold wt are different or you can forget the hold and snap shoot which takes a long time to master and is never as reliable as an anchor and hold. Also with heavier draw wts shooting 30-40 arrows a day for several weeks can mess your shoulders and back muscle up-- as I know. So that said I would go with a 25 inch riser and medium or better long limbs in the low 30# range or even less to learn on-- remember with your draw length you will be adding at least 6# to the limb wt-- develop a good solid shot cycle and techniques (which is about 90% of hitting what you want in recurve). Low wt limbs will easily get you out to 30yds pretty reliably and will allow you to develop good technique. After you have that down then you could go with short limbs, heavier wt for hunting and deal with the pinch and stacking since you won't be shooting hundreds of arrows in that configuration. For target shooting and technique development you want to be able to relax as much as possible.


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## Beendare (Jan 31, 2006)

30" DL here.

Its not JUST length...but also bow and limb design that makes it a good shooter for a guy with a long Draw. Recurve limbs help with a long draw...and the big hook limbs; Uukha, Border, Morrison create less of that stacking feel of a longbow.

I'm a hunter not a target shooter....so I lean toward shorter bows....a 64" Recurve is my favorite [19" ILF riser, with long ILF limbs] I also shoot a 62 pretty good. 

If all I was doing was target.....I would be shooting a very long bow- like 72" as there is no reason to shoot shorter. A 72" hunting bow would be a PITA. 

B TW, I've shot Matt Potters recurve while shooting with him at a tourney- fellow lefty....Border limbs so the big hooks helped with his long draw.


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## strugglesticks (Dec 26, 2017)

My $.02, I would stick with Long or XLong limbs. Do not get Medium or Short limbs. If you want a shorter bow for hunting, get a shorter riser.

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## tdawg21 (Sep 11, 2007)

I have a 31.5” DL and shoot the John’s Custom Archery Optimus ILF recurve risers. I have the 19” and 21” models he offers. I use his Optimus Carbon Foam Limbs as well as a set of Border Hex 7.5’s in XL. Strung length is basically the same with the 19” riser with John’s long limbs and the 21” with the XL Borders. Both are very nice and draw smoothly at my DL. The Borders are a little bit faster but they’re also $600 or so more expensive. BFor the money, I think you’d be hard pressed to beat the Optimus limbs. For a 32” DL, I’d recommend John’s 21” riser and a set of his long limbs in 40#. Which I’d say will be about 42-43# on a 21” riser @ 32” with the bolts bottomed out. And it’ll be really smooth drawing and easy to shoot. Good luck.

-Dawg


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## creidv (Sep 21, 2008)

31 draw. Until I got my Max 6 super hooks I fought stacking forever. Now, with longs on a 19 riser and 420gr 400’s, I’m comfortable in the woods or on the 3d course.


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## Hank D Thoreau (Dec 9, 2008)

The reason super recurves are good for long draw archers is because they push the string lift point (the point where the string loses contact with the limbs) further back in the draw cycle. This delays the onset of stacking.

Border limbs have a minimum points of about 28 inches in their pounds/inch curve (first derivative of the draw force curve). Most other limbs I have tested are at about 20 inches. 

The chart below shows the difference between super recurve, in this case an early set of HEX5 limbs, and a conventional recurve. You can see how stacking is delayed with the HEX5.

In fact, at 32 inches they are still pulling less than 1.8 pounds per inch while the conventional recurves are pulling over 2.5. And these are HEX5. I have data that shows continual improvement with later generations.

Click the picture to expand.


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## Hank D Thoreau (Dec 9, 2008)

Here is a comparison of Border Super Recurves, still without the most recent. The HEX 7.5 are only pulling 0.8 pounds at 32 inches.


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## Hank D Thoreau (Dec 9, 2008)

Another advantage of a super recurve is that the tip to tip bow length is shorter than other bows with the same AMO length due to the big hooks. 

You can shoot a longer AMO length bow and get the benefit of the delayed stacking.


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## deepwater3 (Aug 25, 2019)

Hank,

How does energy gain at higher draw lengths compare for super recurves VS. conventional limbs? It seems like the lower rate of increase of weight on fingers with super recurves at longer draw lengths would equate to a lower rate of energy gain. But then it seems like the usefulness of any gained energy at higher draw would depend on a limb's material/construction and its efficiency at transferring that energy to the string and arrow. 

Am I wrong in thinking that the reduction in stacking with super recurves comes from more limb flex at the tips at longer draw lengths compared to that flex happening closer to the butt of the limb in conventional recurves?


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## BarneySlayer (Feb 28, 2009)

deepwater3 said:


> Hank,
> 
> How does energy gain at higher draw lengths compare for super recurves VS. conventional limbs? It seems like the lower rate of increase of weight on fingers with super recurves at longer draw lengths would equate to a lower rate of energy gain.


Roughly speaking, it scales. This is because of two things.

First, the limb geometry is specific for the target draw length on a given riser, so that the limbs that are optimal for a 28 inch draw energy storage for a given holding weight are not the same as for the limbs for a 32 inch draw energy storage. In other words, the geometry is designed to have the same relationship at a given draw length, short, medium, or long. This also means that the user needs to be more particular about matching limb selection to draw length.

Second, is that the 'decrease' in stacking behavior near holding isn't because it's storing less energy as you approach full draw (It's actually still storing more while it seems to be easing up), but that it increased draw weight so much more quickly in the front of the draw cycle, so that even if, because of biomechanical and trained expectations, it might feel like it's letting off at full draw, given equal holding weight at full draw, the draw was actually heavier through the entire draw cycle, even if it might feel lighter on the back end to a given shooter. Because of this, you can move the holding weight down, and _still_ have more energy in the bow, because the bow _averaged_ a higher draw weight through the _entire_ draw cycle.



> But then it seems like the usefulness of any gained energy at higher draw would depend on a limb's material/construction and its efficiency at transferring that energy to the string and arrow.


Absolutely. Starting with more energy certainly helps, but you also have the mechanics of how much moving mass in the bow has to move how far, how quickly, and how that combines with arrow mass and arrow speed, and in the end, how much of that energy is left in the bow, as opposed to the arrow.

Border limbs are pretty light, particularly towards the limb tips where it actually matters most, but the real advantage is that because of the stored energy available at a given holding weight, you can load up the arrow weight without taking a hit to velocity. That extra arrow weight at the same velocity may translate into better energy delivery into the target, which is important for hunting, or better velocity _retention_ in long distance target environments, assuming you build that heavier arrow with the same physical drag profile.

There are potential personal benefits that depend on the archer, depending on how well they work with a (relatively consistent) smooth draw on the back end. For some people, it helps them out a lot. For some people, it takes some adjusting. And for some they just decide that it doesn't work for them. In this, it is whatever it is.


But, if you're looking simply for a chronograph queen, really you just need some limbs that are built well enough to take a beating, and light enough to minimize the beating on you, and drop arrow weight until you hit the number you like, or your teeth can't take it any more, or the bow blows up


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## xpounder (Oct 16, 2002)

I have a 32 1/4"draw length.I hunt and shoot 3d with a 23" Hoyt riser and long Winex limbs or SF Premium Plus Carbon limbs.This combo is a 68"bow but usually a long armed archer also has a long torso thus a 68"bow is no problem in the woods,even sitting on the ground.I typically order limbs that are 30-32# and achieve 44#@32".I have shot 64"bows and am currently waiting on a 66"Wes Wallace one piece.Ive experienced no stacking even with cheap maple ILF limbs.Alot of it has to do with how the bow is setup to accommodate the draw length.Earl Hoyt wrote that 31"plus draw archers benefit from a midpoint tiller bolt setting on an adjustable riser and I agree.


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## Hank D Thoreau (Dec 9, 2008)

deepwater,

If you stack you are going to be storing more energy. It then comes down to efficiency. How much of that energy is going into the arrow as translational kinetic energy. The super recurves I have measured by far store more energy per weight on the fingers, which means they are picking up energy during the whole draw cycle. Also consider that all bows do not store energy the same. Our deflection equations are typically for small displacements, of which, a bow is not.

From what I have measured, the reduction of stacking comes from the limbs increasing leverage over a longer portion of the draw cycle.

Let's go through this in steps. A long bow has a lever of constant length. How it pulls depends on the string angle. At some point you start pulling the limb tips closer together. This is around where you see stacking.

Now add a siyah to the bow. A siyah give you a bow of effectively two lengths. You have the length when they string rests on the siyah, and they length after the lift point. Increasing the length of the lever, reduces the pounds/inch you are pulling.

Next is a static recurve. A static recurve is like a siyah except that instead of two levers, it has a continuously increasing lever until you reach the lift point. As such your pounds/inch goes down until the lift point after which, it starts to rise.

A conventional recurve is like a static recurve except that now the limb tips uncurl changing the pounds/inch profile, plus probably storing a bit of energy.

Up to this point most 70 inch bows have a lift point anywhere from 19 to 22 inches. So leverage increases, and pounds/inch decreases to about that point. See my charts post 9 for an example. I have many examples of this.

Eventually, you will reach a point where you start pulling the limb tips together. You will usually see stacking here. I have a measure I call limb length for this. I have done these measurements during the draw cycle of a few bows are part of my testing process.

A Border super recurve has a lift point of about 28 inches. That means that leverage is increasing all the way out to 28 inches. It is not until you are past this point that pounds/inch starts to rise, but you are already near full draw.

So the simple way to look at it is leverage. From conversations with the Sid's I know there is more involved and that is what differentiates one super recurve from another, but foundationally, it is all about leverage.


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## Beendare (Jan 31, 2006)

Good post Barney slayer....that explanation nails it. 

My Uukhas have a pretty big hook and I like those....but I didn't like the Morrison max and the border limbs. They are excellent....but I didn't like that high letoff feel.


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## strugglesticks (Dec 26, 2017)

Beendare said:


> Good post Barney slayer....that explanation nails it.
> 
> My Uukhas have a pretty big hook and I like those....but I didn't like the Morrison max and the border limbs. They are excellent....but I didn't like that high letoff feel.


I have never drawn a super recurve. But I think the lack of stacking would freak me out. I like that heaviness on my fingers when I reach anchor and transfer the weight to my back muscles. Plus I can't afford those hooks. 

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## kentsabrina (Aug 23, 2017)

Correct me if I m wrong

A super recurve should be more beneficial for short dl shooter rather than long dl shooter

Because it can be braced at a lower brace height, hence having a longer power stroke within ur draw

But most super recurve limbs are made dl specific...so if u have it made correctly for dl, it should work best for u regardless of how long or short ur dl are


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## Hank D Thoreau (Dec 9, 2008)

Lower brace height helps both long and short draw lengths. You are going to get more stored energy in both cases. 

Short draw archers may appreciate it more since they are at an energy disadvantage (see my linear approximation of the DFC post linked to in post #2 to see how much).

What makes super recurves good for long draw lengths is pushing the advent of stacking back as a result of the lift point being out about 28 inches.

What makes them good for short is that you are releasing at the low point in the pounds/inch curve.


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## BarneySlayer (Feb 28, 2009)

kentsabrina said:


> Correct me if I m wrong
> 
> A super recurve should be more beneficial for short dl shooter rather than long dl shooter
> 
> ...


When it comes to benefits, it really comes down to specifics. _All else being equal,_ and assuming the limbs/riser are correctly matched to the draw length in question, super recurves with the same holding weight will store more energy, and stack less on the back of the draw. Whether or not that is if benefit, and to what degree, depends on the individual and what they're trying to do with it.

Speaking very generally, the energy storage may be of benefit more to shorter draws if they can make use of the energy one way or another, because you can compensate for the shorter power with the draw force curve instead of loading up on heavier draw/holding weight.

Just as generally, longer draws may benefit slightly more from super recurves in that compared to super recurves, long versus short conventional limbs don't actually make a huge difference, and somebody with a thirty something draw length will find that most bows stack more dramatically for them.

So, I wouldn't say you're wrong, but I'd just make sure to keep generalizations as generalizations, and allow room for exceptions when it comes to individuals. While I personally like what the design does for me, you can spin off in lots of directions with examples where somebody else preferred something else, and actually come up with technical reasons that justify their preference in terms of how they operate, and what they're doing with their bow.


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## Beendare (Jan 31, 2006)

Even simpler explanation; Limbs like super recurves that retain more energy make it so you can pull less weight for the same performance.

The negatives would be;
1) they are a little noisier
2) Some of the top, top shooters claim they aren't as accurate [that will start a fire!]

My take on #2 above.....999 out of 1000 guys wouldn't be able to tell the difference.....so for most of us this is a non issue............but I believe a guy that shoots perfect scores consistently beating compound guys.


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## Bill 2311 (Jun 24, 2005)

+1 on Hank's comments an out Borders.
ILF is a great option. Contact Border or Morrison about suggestions for you.
Both are great guys to deal with. Right now the limbs are running about the same price. 
Expensive, but at your draw arrow speed and momentum with a hunting g arrow will be impressive


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## Joden (Oct 9, 2015)

Blessing and a curse I guess to have that much draw length but good for high poundage


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## Mbugland (Sep 26, 2016)

This is probably the best compilation of longdraw info in one thread.... 

The link Hank Shared( and has shared multiple times, to me included) is a true eye opener, made a whole lot of things make sense. Ready it, research or ask about what you don’t understand. 

In all seriousness, it was said early on, you can pretty much throw out any recommendation of equipment form the <29 crowd. It pains me to say that, but a year worth of rabbit holes trying to counter what equipment is telling me because of what super smart great archers were saying under 29 hurts.

That said..... seriously don’t over-bow yourself on limbs, for more than one reason. Form is king, but arrow selection is insane. 60# at 32” and a 32+” arrow shaft instantly puts you over the 300spine mark. In fact I want to say my ~60# ilf rig is eating 250 Black eagles with 150gr heads up front on their 50gr halfout. I’m only at 31-1/2” and a 32” arrow. 

I’ve tried to hold onto a 17” riser to stay under 62, I’m getting ready to just go 21”, bypass 19” I’m coming from the longbow side so I was really excited to be under the 68/70”bow category.... but that said, I’ve hunted longbows and it’s just paying a little more attention to limb tips and tree branches.

I love the info on here, it summarizes the last two month of reading reading & reading on supercurves. Think Lancaster has some of the Uukahs at the $400 mark.... think I’m going to drop into the 40/45# limb mark and open my arrow selection up a little more. Hank, I can’t say thanks enough for the depth of info you provide throughout this forum and others.


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## Dartwick (Oct 28, 2019)

The super curves are cool and work great and are expensive, but at 32" you probably dont need one. Also its not just stack that makes it hard for some people - string pinch can be limiting for many people. 

In addition to longer total bow length, risers and super curves you will also find bows built with more deflexed risers are more friendly for longer draw lengths. Also longer working limbs help mitigate stack to some degree. 

You need to shoot some different bows to understand how you personally deal with stack and finger pinch. And you need to take a 66" bow into some tight quarters and see how it suits you.


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## Kaska (Sep 8, 2019)

Thank you all so much for the incredible feedback! Just had a new baby born last week so I haven’t been on the forums as much. I’ll read through everything and get back to you all ASAP! 


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## YoungMarine (Jan 16, 2019)

Congrats on the new baby. I can't improve on anything already said here. Hank D. Thoreau is an asset to this site an others with his wealth of information. I also have a 32" draw and have no problem hunting with a 66" bow (21" riser with long limbs). I moved up from a 19" riser since it's a little smoother and the added length is noticeable for a tall guy. Good luck!


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## Hank D Thoreau (Dec 9, 2008)

I want to add a preview to something that I am looking into with a new model that I developed. This was precipitated by some of the leading edge super recurves that have been developed.

Stacking has an interesting impact on the energy/pound relationship which impacts long draw archers. Let's say I want to hold 40 pounds. The amount of energy stored depends on how the bow approaches 40 pounds.

If I hit 40 pounds during stacking then I am storing less energy than if I hit 40 pounds prior to stacking. On the other end of the spectrum there are super recurves where the draw force curve is almost flat for a wide range around full draw.

In these cases the final holding weight starts to take on less meaning since you can hit the same weight over a range of draw lengths. Bows of this type will store the maximum energy per weight on the fingers. 

There is some re-jiggling that we have to go through with regard to tuning. We rely on pounds rather than arrow acceleration (force on the arrow) as a tuning guide. In reality if we are using a static measure it should be stored energy.

Energy increases even when holding weight is constant. In fact, it increases a lot. This means that for these really high tech bows you need to understand the energy you are storing rather than the weight you are holding.

I will have more about this in a follow-on to my linear draw force curve post. Keep in mind that all these relationships for long draw archers also apply to shooting short bows. Basically, this addresses situations where you are drawing a bow long relative to the bows length.


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