# 50m Hit/Miss target - equipment observations from a compound standpoint



## Sturdyman (Oct 30, 2009)

I am sorry. I do not know what a 50 meter hit/miss target is. Would you be able to explain?


----------



## Beastmaster (Jan 20, 2009)

April 2011, this following target will be used for Compound Elimination and Finals. A picture of the target was graciously provided by Vittorio here on AT, and out here in Arizona, the Arizona State Archery Association was gracious enough to order some of these faces from Maple Leaf so archers could try out the new hit/miss target at the Arizona Game and Fish Outdoor Exposition.

http://www.arcierimonica.org/download/Bersaglio_Hit_Miss.pdf

The dimensions are:

40cm target square, blue background

30cm red circle on the blue background

10cm Yellow circle over the red circle

Basically put, yellow counts as one point, anything else basically equals being in the dirt. Set shooting.

Now, shooting in rather high wind today did not help things any at all. However, the style of target background (solid blue square, red circle, yellow circle) made it interesting. Now, I shoot predominantly indoor target, but outdoor target is quite fun to do. So, this was very challenging since I'm basically shooting a 40cm face at roughly 2.5 times the distance....and I'm using hunting arrows instead of my normal indoor ones.

What I'm noticing is that my "normal" scope/pin/lens set up was nearly useless out there. And, I don't know who else has shot the 50 meter hit/miss target yet. 

Because of that, I'm basically putting out a feeler to see if anyone else has done so. And for those who have, what was the scope/lens setup?

Now, this also brings in some interesting strategy thought processes. For example - I know that my 23/64th or 9.3mm diameter arrows are able to fly 50 meters, and are light enough to not be too affected by the wind.

Does this mean that I start shooting line cutters instead of stuff like A/C/E's or A/C/G's or Nanos or X10's?

Anyhow, I do want to thank my peers at the Arizona State Archery Association for bringing in a few of these target faces for testing. I've been imploring some of my fellow Arizona archers to come out and test it out. I realize that sometimes the ASAA is a bit forward thinking, and that they do stuff that isn't typical, but I'm sure that someone else out there has shot this target face and determined a good or decent setup for a sight.

Thanks,
-Steve


----------



## DarkFORCE (Feb 28, 2003)

Wow... Never seen that target face before.


----------



## Beastmaster (Jan 20, 2009)

DarkFORCE said:


> Wow... Never seen that target face before.


It's really new. Come on out to the AZGFD event. Bring your Redlines and your Vantage. It's a fun target to shoot.

So much so that I'm right now changing scope heads and lenses to the 6x and a larger up pin diameter.


----------



## DarkFORCE (Feb 28, 2003)

Beastmaster said:


> It's really new. Come on out to the AZGFD event. Bring your Redlines and your Vantage. It's a fun target to shoot.
> 
> So much so that I'm right now changing scope heads and lenses to the 6x and a larger up pin diameter.


I was thinking about coming out tomorrow. Not sure yet. Nephew has tix for baseball game and want me to come with.


----------



## Serious Fun (May 12, 2003)

DarkFORCE said:


> Wow... Never seen that target face before.


 Ray, since you live in the Phoenix Metro area, be sure to come out ot the AAE AZ Cup on April 8 and watch the Practice day where AAE AZ Cup archers will have the opprotunity to test the target face at 50 Meters. It should be a very interesting test and a peek at what is planned to be the format for 2011 FITA compound individual elimination match format.

Frequently Asked Questions on Competition Formats for 2010 and beyond (FITA March 2010)
http://www.archery.org/content.asp?id=1036&me_id=836&cnt_id=4673


----------



## Vittorio (Jul 17, 2003)

I'm expecting that as of the distance to size relationship, light fat carbon arrows will be the final choice for the Hit and Miss Compound target. If so, it simply means that new FITA rules will basically kill Pro Tour/X10 and Nano Pro in the compound market...


----------



## Sturdyman (Oct 30, 2009)

I am new to this sport. It seems to me that the state of Arizona has quite a bit of influence on the target archery world. Keep it up.


----------



## TomB (Jan 28, 2003)

Vittorio said:


> I'm expecting that as of the distance to size relationship, light fat carbon arrows will be the final choice for the Hit and Miss Compound target. If so, it simply means that new FITA rules will basically kill Pro Tour/X10 and Nano Pro in the compound market...


until they change the rules to "inside out" scoring rules.


----------



## lorteti (Apr 14, 2008)

Vittorio said:


> I'm expecting that as of the distance to size relationship, light fat carbon arrows will be the final choice for the Hit and Miss Compound target. If so, it simply means that new FITA rules will basically kill Pro Tour/X10 and Nano Pro in the compound market...


Good point.
Who makes the best lightweight fat arrows?
Actually, I’ve never understood why 50m, you loose the whole advantage of the compound precision and speed.
To me, 70m hit/miss is much better choice, or at least a smaller 8mm hit zone at 50m.
jx


----------



## Serious Fun (May 12, 2003)

Sturdyman said:


> I am new to this sport. It seems to me that the state of Arizona has quite a bit of influence on the target archery world. Keep it up.


No influence, we just try to say informed and proactively react to help the archers perform. The last thing we want is to have some archers come to an event dazed and confused resulting is needless delay for the majority of the other archers. We selfishly want things to run smoothly.

The new rules have been published so we let people know.
http://www.archery.org/content.asp?id=1023&me_id=827 

It helps greatly that FITA has provided so much information:
“Frequently Asked Questions on Competition Formats for 2010 and beyond, First publication: March 2010” 
http://www.archery.org/content.asp?id=1036&me_id=836&cnt_id=4673

The USAA gave us all a “head up” in September of 2009:
“2010 Events - Where are we headed and what the recent FITA changes mean for USA Archery? by Denise Parker / September 02, 2009“
http://usarchery.org/blogs/blog-for...-the-recent-fita-changes-mean-for-usa-archery 

We ordered target faces including the Hit and Miss and the 5 thru 10 ring 80 cm face from Doug Patterson at Maple Leaf Press. 
http://www.mapleleafpress.com/


----------



## CT MastersCF (Mar 14, 2009)

*why 50 m? good point*



lorteti said:


> Good point.
> Who makes the best lightweight fat arrows?
> Actually, I’ve never understood why 50m, you loose the whole advantage of the compound precision and speed.
> To me, 70m hit/miss is much better choice, or at least a smaller 8mm hit zone at 50m.
> jx


FWIW ... outdoors my practice venue is 50 m max and I shoot the 40 cm indoor target for practice with fingers on a compound (49# with round wheels .. Hoyt Provantage and Navigators) and I usually have no problem staying in the red most of the time. With a release is that going to be pretty often in the gold?

Not having shot the hit-or-miss target myself, I don't know.

Since I shoot in the masters class, there is no OR for us anyway, as far as I know.

Ray


----------



## Beastmaster (Jan 20, 2009)

Vittorio said:


> I'm expecting that as of the distance to size relationship, light fat carbon arrows will be the final choice for the Hit and Miss Compound target. If so, it simply means that new FITA rules will basically kill Pro Tour/X10 and Nano Pro in the compound market...


Well, I'm gonna try that today. I'm going to see how well my Easton Fatboys/Beman 9.3's perform. Unlike my son (who gets better arrows than his dad does for long distance), my long distance arrows tend to be hunting shafts rather than target. 

I do feel you are right though - fatter arrows may become the norm for compound. And I know the Beman 9.3/Easton Fatboy can easily travel 50 meters with zero issues. 

-Steve
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Beastmaster (Jan 20, 2009)

Sturdyman said:


> I am new to this sport. It seems to me that the state of Arizona has quite a bit of influence on the target archery world. Keep it up.


Like Bob said - the Arizona State Archery Association is very forawrd thinking. I don't know of too many other state associations that try and get their state's archers an advantage in training and exposure to new stuff. 

It's quite nice. 

-Steve
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Beastmaster (Jan 20, 2009)

Serious Fun said:


> No influence, we just try to say informed and proactively react to help the archers perform. The last thing we want is to have some archers come to an event dazed and confused resulting is needless delay for the majority of the other archers. We selfishly want things to run smoothly.


And I can attest that from a shooter standpoint, every archery event in the State of Arizona is run extremely smooth. It doesn't matter which club, organization, or type of archery - indoor target, outdoor target, 3D, field, whatever. The state has a group of people involved in all aspects of archery to where they want to run good and clean events. 

Kudos to all here in Arizona who runs 'em - they do a great job!

-Steve
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Beastmaster (Jan 20, 2009)

lorteti said:


> Good point.
> Who makes the best lightweight fat arrows?
> Actually, I’ve never understood why 50m, you loose the whole advantage of the compound precision and speed.
> To me, 70m hit/miss is much better choice, or at least a smaller 8mm hit zone at 50m.
> jx


There are a lot of people who make larger diameter arrows. Easton has their 23 sized aluminums and carbon Fatboys (and discontinued the Beman 9.3, which basically were Fatboy rejects in straightness tolerances), Victory has theirs, Gold Tip has their 22/64th sized arrows - a lot of people make them. All fly well if you have a properly tuned bow. 

-Steve
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## jerrytee (Feb 5, 2005)

Ir's possible that ACE's could do very well over 50 meters. They seem to loose speed more quickly over the last half of the longer distances due to the light weight, at 50 meters that won't matter.Yes ACE's have a small diameter but wind drift will still be a consideration on some days.


----------



## Beastmaster (Jan 20, 2009)

Okay....Day two at the Arizona Game and Fish Expo produced an interesting situation.

Michael Speck (who's name I forget here on AT) was shooting today at the range. He's a former collegiate archer who also shoots various tournaments locally here in Arizona. 

He and I post similar scores, and ironically, I took out my Hoyt UltraElite to sit on the ASAA table as a "demo" bow. Mike shoots a Hoyt Ultraelite as well, so we had identical risers, similar draw weights (near 60#'s), similar archers shooting similar scores, and both of us were using SureLoc sights, but different scope heads. His scope head used a dot, mine was a .029 up pin equipped HHA scope head. 

So, we ended up having an opportunity to do a side by side shoot.

Wind was a huge factor. The target bales are positioned inside a shooting safety berm that's U-shaped. We had swirling gusts peaking at 15-18mph.

Mike shot X10 Protours. I shot Easton Fatboys/Beman 9.3's. The results are as follows. Pictures tell a 1000 words.

For those of you who hit AT using the mobile template - narrow arrows win. 

-Steve

Note - more on this. I'm travelling to family dinner night, my wife's driving, so I can type more on my Blackberry...


----------



## Beastmaster (Jan 20, 2009)

Okay, additional comments/observations. 

1) A dot seems to be the best on the lens. The jury is out if you'd use a dot that covers only yellow or a dot that covered all but a little red. 

2) Fiber up pins - ick. Enough said. 

3) Strategies will be interesting. In the scenario that Mike and I had, we had a worse case situation where we had harsh lighting and really harsh swirly winds with occasional updrafts. 

With that, do you use fat shafts with no wind, use X10's with wind, or shoot X10's all the time? 

More as I come up with additional thoughts. 

-Steve
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Serious Fun (May 12, 2003)

From:
Frequently Asked Questions on Competition Formats for 2010 and beyond, First publication: March 2010
http://www.archery.org/content.asp?id=1036&me_id=836&cnt_id=4673

“…6) What are the targets with 5-10 scoring zone? In what competitions will they be used? 
These 5-10 scoring zone targets http://www.archery.org/UserFiles/Document/World Cup/General/Target 5-10.pdf (42cm wide) can be used for regular FITA rounds and at 50m and 30m when shooting 6 arrow ends. This allows to gain a lot of time shooting a FITA Round. 
The regular 6-10 scoring zone target can also be used at 30m…”

So my guess is that most 2011 compound round archers will want to shoot pro tours so that they don’t beat up their arrows at 50 meters shooting 6 arrow ends and to be prepared for windy conditions.


----------



## Beastmaster (Jan 20, 2009)

Bob - in that informal 2 end test, I will agree. There really isn't a reason right now to shoot a 9.3mm sized arrow at 50 meters. 

Now, if someone wants to do more testing, the targets are available from Maple Leaf, they can print out the PDF version that Vittorio was graciously able to provide, or they can use an IFAA 50cm target that has different coloration, but the same size hit target ring.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## DarkFORCE (Feb 28, 2003)

Interesting. I wish I could have made it out there today to shoot a few. Wife and I did major spring cleaning upstairs today. I don't think I could even pull my bow back now.


----------



## Sighting In (Feb 5, 2009)

Why did the fiber suck so bad? I have heard of some people really liking fibers for FITA stuff. Do you think a ring would work well?

About the arrows. You showed pics of yours and Mike's groupings, in which the Protours were more in the middle than yours. But, that does not take into account shooter error. To be honest, Steve, I am pretty sure Mike is a bit better shot than you-no offense intended. I think the real test would be to have Mike shoot both arrows and see which works better. I would bet the difference in group size has more to do with the archer than the shafts. 

Again, Steve, no offense intended. Just telling it like it is.


----------



## Beastmaster (Jan 20, 2009)

Interspersed.



Sighting In said:


> Why did the fiber suck so bad? I have heard of some people really liking fibers for FITA stuff. Do you think a ring would work well?


Ring may work extremely well. I didn't have the stuff with me to really experiment with things. The .029 fiber ended up flaring up quite a bit, even with part of the fiber covered with tape. The flare got to the point where it overwhelmed the yellow center and overflowed to the red.

The .019 fiber got washed out being too small. So, I had a bad situation yesterday, and a bad situation today.

Mike commented that a proper sized dot will likely be the most effective.



> About the arrows. You showed pics of yours and Mike's groupings, in which the Protours were more in the middle than yours. But, that does not take into account shooter error. To be honest, Steve, I am pretty sure Mike is a bit better shot than you-no offense intended. I think the real test would be to have Mike shoot both arrows and see which works better. I would bet the difference in group size has more to do with the archer than the shafts.
> 
> Again, Steve, no offense intended. Just telling it like it is.


In all seriousness, the Hit/Miss scenario (just like the set system) is really up in the air for me. I can't see that either system really rewards archers or penalizes them. 

And Adam - Being frank in responding to you...I really don't know how to respond back to you on this second part, mainly because I'm not your coach and I'm not your father. 

Being tactful in my response back to you, I would have thought that something like your commentary would have been far better verbalized in more familiar environs. 

Sometimes, shop banter and familiarity, along with the fact that I experiment a lot to see what/how things go on can somewhat cause consternation in the eyes of other archers. 

To the others who don't personally know me - Tinkering is in my personality. I will tinker with stuff just to see what it will do, knowing full well the consequences it will do to my archery results in a short and medium term. 

I'm sure Adam can attest to a certain amount of confusion when he witnessed my 5 spot experiment that I did using the Hoyt ProElite as a test to see and try to determine if I could quantify a riser's "forgiveness"....especially considering that he shot in the lane next to me and watched me when I was doing that oddball experiment. 

Then, there are times that I will have flashes of brilliance, which seems to come out when money is on the line rather than playing for typical archery stakes (and getting my first perfect indoor score was far sweeter when real cash money is on the line...) Either way, Mike is generally able to garner more consistent results because he doesn't change entire configs at the drop of the hat like I do, or trade complete bow setups for another bow setup just to see how another bow setup will shoot. Mike will stick with one bow setup, and stay with it. I don't. 

Considering that my contracted "job" with my sponsors is also to be part mad scientist, this is to be expected as well.....I'm "paid" (loose term use) to prove something works and to play with it outside the normal bounds, or to compare it against other things to see what needs to be improved upon.

Getting back to the actual subject at hand - Mike commented on how odd the 9.3 arrow flight was when we were shooting. He noticed that it was more affected during gusts, and I noticed that his X10's were not affected at all.

Admittedly, the 9.3's are also set up for failure from the get go. The feathers mounted on the 9.3's will immediately be affected by the wind and cause more shift during arrow flight....right wing spin notwithstanding. 

If I get a chance to play with a 50 meter hit/miss again, I'm going to try my other set of 9.3's that have "normal" vanes attached to them, and compare that to a set of standard diameter carbons. If I ever get off my butt and buy myself a set of ACC's or ACE's, I'll likely do the same and do more experimental shooting.

-Steve


----------



## ScarletArrows (May 25, 2007)

those pics look like someone is patterning a shotgun...I can shoot better with my recurve :-D just kidding...

Lots of the guys in the local club have been experimenting with fat vs. thin arrows for distance shooting ...being that this is south GA, 3-d is the most popular form of target archery...what is being discovered is that thin arrows don't drift around as much at the longer distances.

One of the best shooters in the club tells me that at 50m with CXL2's his groups are on the average size fo a softball if not a bit larger...2.25 inch Flex Fletch vanes btw...With CX Nano Pros his groups are the size of a baseball if not a bit smaller...now all things are relative but IF I where shooting that 50m target I would want the arrow that isn't going to drift at all when the wind starts blowin. my 2 cents


----------



## Sighting In (Feb 5, 2009)

Beastmaster said:


> Being tactful in my response back to you, I would have thought that something like your commentary would have been far better verbalized in more familiar environs.


You are right, Steve. I apologize. That was probably not something to be said on the public forum, and I am sorry. 

Nonetheless, I would still like to see the same person shoot both arrows and see what happens. Shooter error is a big factor, and I want to see how it would work if we tried to remove the difference in shooters.

Again, Steve, my apologies.


----------



## SandSquid (Sep 2, 2008)

lorteti said:


> Good point.
> Who makes the best lightweight fat arrows?


The Victory XringerHV V1 350 is sweet but may be too fat @ 0.372 Isn't the new Max diameter 9.3 mm whihc is like 0.3661 If not, check out the VX-22HV which has an outside diameter of .334 or the VX-22/w an outside diameter of .344

I'm sticking w/ my NanoForce's I've tuned and tinkered and I just consistantly shoot better w/ the narrower shafts


----------



## Serious Fun (May 12, 2003)

Sighting In said:


> ...Nonetheless, I would still like to see the same person shoot both arrows and see what happens. Shooter error is a big factor, and I want to see how it would work if we tried to remove the difference in shooters...


Considering that shooting is mostly mental. I would suggest that if the same archer had equally well tuned and set up bows and arrows, one with fat arrows and one with skinny arrows, the archers personal belief would influence the results. 
If the archer believes that the fat arrow are better, their fat arrrow group will be better. If an archer thinks that the skinny arrows are better, I would guess the skinny arrow group would be better. One could test with a shooting machines side by side on a windy day to see the un biased difference.


----------



## Vittorio (Jul 17, 2003)

Fat carbon arrows to be used for outdoor need spin wings (or similar) on them, not feathers. And of course we are supposing to compare arrows with same archer and same level of tuning and skill. 
Outddoor international compound competitions next year, including World Target Championships, will be shot with a qualfying 50 mt ranking round, 6 arrows per end on multiple 6 zones (5 to 10) faces, so the 30 mt with 6 arrows in a face in reality wil never exist for compound archers, in future. 
Local FITA rounds wil continue with 3 arows per end at 50/30 to favour amateurs, and 6 arrows per end will only happen a top level for recurves only, as they wil continue to shoot the FITA round at the world championships.
We are just a the begining of revolution in compound archery.. dififcult to guess properly, but I think that at top level compound people shooting 354 to 358 over 360 at 50 with thin arrows, wil give more than a try to 23 size carbon arrows because of the hit and miss system.


----------



## Beastmaster (Jan 20, 2009)

Sighting In said:


> You are right, Steve. I apologize. That was probably not something to be said on the public forum, and I am sorry.
> 
> Nonetheless, I would still like to see the same person shoot both arrows and see what happens. Shooter error is a big factor, and I want to see how it would work if we tried to remove the difference in shooters.
> 
> Again, Steve, my apologies.





Serious Fun said:


> Considering that shooting is mostly mental. I would suggest that if the same archer had equally well tuned and set up bows and arrows, one with fat arrows and one with skinny arrows, the archers personal belief would influence the results.
> If the archer believes that the fat arrow are better, their fat arrrow group will be better. If an archer thinks that the skinny arrows are better, I would guess the skinny arrow group would be better. One could test with a shooting machines side by side on a windy day to see the un biased difference.


Adam - apology accepted. 

Bob - its unlikely we can borrow the same range to do similar testing with Mel's Hooter Shooter. I don't think DPS and Ben Avery would let us set up again unless we reserved it somehow.

The wind patterns in the U-Shaped berm were quite fascinating. 70 meter flags were doing this left/right pattern, 60 meter flags were front left/rear right diagonal in relation to the shooter, 50 meter was the opposite of 60, and 30 meter was straight headwind to the shooter.

I don't think the ultimate power that be that controls the weather will reduplicate the same conditions. Pity, since it was quite interesting. That 15mph wind condition creating the swirl pattern was pretty cool.

-Steve


----------



## Scott.Barrett (Oct 26, 2008)

Beastmaster said:


> Okay....Day two at the Arizona Game and Fish Expo produced an interesting situation.
> 
> Michael Speck (who's name I forget here on AT) was shooting today at the range. He's a former collegiate archer who also shoots various tournaments locally here in Arizona.
> 
> ...


Thanks for just convincing me to keep shooting my ProTours for everything....:wink:


----------



## Serious Fun (May 12, 2003)

Beastmaster said:


> Adam - apology accepted.
> 
> Bob - its unlikely we can borrow the same range to do similar testing with Mel's Hooter Shooter. I don't think DPS and Ben Avery would let us set up again unless we reserved it somehow.
> 
> ...


Anyone entity that becomes an BASF registered club can reserve space at BASF. A test need only be in the same conditions.


----------



## Beastmaster (Jan 20, 2009)

Vittorio said:


> Fat carbon arrows to be used for outdoor need spin wings (or similar) on them, not feathers. And of course we are supposing to compare arrows with same archer and same level of tuning and skill.
> Outddoor international compound competitions next year, including World Target Championships, will be shot with a qualfying 50 mt ranking round, 6 arrows per end on multiple 6 zones (5 to 10) faces, so the 30 mt with 6 arrows in a face in reality wil never exist for compound archers, in future.
> Local FITA rounds wil continue with 3 arows per end at 50/30 to favour amateurs, and 6 arrows per end will only happen a top level for recurves only, as they wil continue to shoot the FITA round at the world championships.
> We are just a the begining of revolution in compound archery.. dififcult to guess properly, but I think that at top level compound people shooting 354 to 358 over 360 at 50 with thin arrows, wil give more than a try to 23 size carbon arrows because of the hit and miss system.


Pulling a different side of archery - the majority of pro outdoor 3D shooters doesn't really use a 23 sized arrow either. Even with low profile vanes, the fatter shaft will cause havoc in the wind as well. A lot of the 3D shoots will have 50 yard (not meters, mind you) shots that tend to be a tad sheltered.

There are talks that some guys use a 27 sized arrow in 3d, but you're also able to shoot higher poundage bows too.

I know that the husband/wife 3D team of Levi and Samantha Morgan shoot a smaller diameter X7 (Levi) and Easton Lightspeed (Samantha). 

Bob - didn't know that. Of course, recreating the swirly wind is gonna be hard.


----------



## Serious Fun (May 12, 2003)

Beastmaster said:


> Pulling a different side of archery - the majority of pro outdoor 3D shooters doesn't really use a 23 sized arrow either. Even with low profile vanes, the fatter shaft will cause havoc in the wind as well. A lot of the 3D shoots will have 50 yard (not meters, mind you) shots that tend to be a tad sheltered.
> 
> There are talks that some guys use a 27 sized arrow in 3d, but you're also able to shoot higher poundage bows too.
> 
> ...


 From what people tell me the fully bermed small shooting ranges at BASF do typically have swirling winds.


----------



## sundevilarchery (May 27, 2005)

Beastmaster said:


> Bob - didn't know that. Of course, recreating the swirly wind is gonna be hard.


No it won't... that's Ben Avery's speciality! Bwahahahahaha.


----------



## Beastmaster (Jan 20, 2009)

sundevilarchery said:


> No it won't... that's Ben Avery's speciality! Bwahahahahaha.


Missed you Sunday. It was busy at the booth.


----------



## 3B43 (Mar 16, 2006)

Since I took up FITA last year, and shot relatively well . . . it appears that the entire 'course of fire' has changed, is that what I'm getting by Vitt post? If so, can someone explain exactly WHAT will be shot . . .90/70/50 w/out 30M? 

The 10cm 'hit/miss' target center . . . is approx 4", correct?
Fat arrows WILL shoot extremely accurate @ 50m w/out the wind. Add some breeze . . . I'll stick to my Nano's.


----------



## 442fps (Dec 23, 2003)

Vittorio said:


> I'm expecting that as of the distance to size relationship, light fat carbon arrows will be the final choice for the Hit and Miss Compound target. If so, it simply means that new FITA rules will basically kill Pro Tour/X10 and Nano Pro in the compound market...


That's right !

And i'm glad about it :darkbeer:

Why ?

If i look around , here where i live , on the FITA competitions , from year to year i see less and less shooters , specially with compound bows , because the people don't have the money anymore for these skinny and expensive shafts .

For 50 meters they are not really necessary , a shaft like a McKinney Cheetah or Whitetail will do the job , maybe even better for the Hit/Miss with its slightly larger diameter , without beeing to fat and having problems in the wind .

And normally this should open the FITA competitions for lots of shooters which stayed away in the past cause of the expensive shafts .


----------



## Corsair (Nov 21, 2005)

I've read all the FITA notes on this and I'd like to check that I have understood things properly.

For compound shooters, there will be only one type of competition round and that will be shot at 50m on a small 5 to 10 ring target.

Following this there will be a shoot-off using hit miss targets at 50m.

And that's it for compound?? 

Everything else has been taken away??

Won't this bore people ****less after a while? Or am I being pessimistic? Or is there something that I don't understand?


----------



## Serious Fun (May 12, 2003)

Corsair said:


> I've read all the FITA notes on this and I'd like to check that I have understood things properly.
> 
> For compound shooters, there will be only one type of competition round and that will be shot at 50m on a small 5 to 10 ring target.
> 
> ...


We are not hostage by what is conducted at FITA world championship, the Olympics and World Cups. Clubs are welcomed to conduct all sorts of field rounds, 900s, FITAs, 5-spots, Vegas rounds, Round Robins and any other game we like. I think it is important for tournament hosts to indentify who their “customer” is and offer what suits the customer. The key is to provide “entertaining fun for all”.


----------



## Corsair (Nov 21, 2005)

> We are not hostage by what is conducted at FITA world championship, the Olympics and World Cups. Clubs are welcomed to conduct all sorts of field rounds, 900s, FITAs, 5-spots, Vegas rounds, Round Robins and any other game we like. I think it is important for tournament hosts to indentify who their “customer” is and offer what suits the customer. The key is to provide “entertaining fun for all”.


I hope it is as simple as that. I'm not saying I'm in love with the FITA 90m match - I'm not, but it does constitute a major challenge for all archers and would be even more so if there were a change of target sizes.

My real concern is where FITA is leading us with these changes. I'd like to see compounds in the Olympics as much as anyone but I wonder if FITA has really come up with an Olympic-worthy format for compounders.


----------



## 3B43 (Mar 16, 2006)

WHY was this change made? I've shot all forms of archery and took up FITA last year . . . its my FAVORITE and all of a sudden a MAJOR change? I don't get it.


----------



## Beastmaster (Jan 20, 2009)

3B43 said:


> WHY was this change made? I've shot all forms of archery and took up FITA last year . . . its my FAVORITE and all of a sudden a MAJOR change? I don't get it.


It's an attempt to differentiate compound from recurve, or at least that's how I understand it.

-Steve


----------



## Serious Fun (May 12, 2003)

Corsair said:


> ...My real concern is where FITA is leading us with these changes. I'd like to see compounds in the Olympics as much as anyone but I wonder if FITA has really come up with an Olympic-worthy format for compounders.


I think the compound archers that compete at the top international level will encourage events to conduct the 50M compound rounds in a world championship/world cup like fashion. Since the events want the best to come, they will do as the top compound archers request. Other compound archers that want to play with the top dogs will come and play whatever game is offered.

Right now I see the leadership coming up with ideas in answer to the archery community’s request to increase the chances to get compound archery into the Olympics. What I would like to see is the compound archery community itself coming up with a format that has what it takes to attract the IOC attention for compound archery to be an Olympic sport. Any ideas from the grassroots level? Do the compound archers really want to get into the Olympics?


----------



## cc46 (Jan 22, 2005)

Olympics are 4 years apart and steeped with history....not sure the techyness of compound archery matches the genre..

but Vegas and the precision shooting intrigues many...and 50m is unique, good for indoors and outdoors and viewable to an audience, could be set up in a hockey arena, or Vegas, just turn it sideways...

as for the fat and skinny arrows, well, I see two set ups brought to the show, and each will be used in either the wind or calm..

lets try it and see!


----------



## jerrytee (Feb 5, 2005)

cc46 said:


> Olympics are 4 years apart and steeped with history....not sure the techyness of compound archery matches the genre..
> 
> but Vegas and the precision shooting intrigues many...and 50m is unique, good for indoors and outdoors and viewable to an audience, could be set up in a hockey arena, or Vegas, just turn it sideways...
> 
> ...


That's what I intend to try. Oneida Pro Eagle with 2315's for calm days. Bowtech brigadier with ACE's for windy days


----------



## pbdollar (May 1, 2005)

Will the compounders shoot this format at the US National Target Championship At Ohio??


----------



## 3B43 (Mar 16, 2006)

I STILL don't get why the change was made. I could understand shortening the match, OR, IMHO, dropping the 30m stage and just shooting 90/70/50 (24shots/distance THEN go to 50m shoot off). Coming from the world of long range shooting (Palma/1000 yds) dealing w/CONDITIONS was the major issue! Shooting 90/70 and dealing w/conditions is a HUGE part of the sport. Just my opinion and I've only shot 4-5 FITA matches.


----------



## Corsair (Nov 21, 2005)

I really can't understand why FITA chose this particular type of round for compound bows. If it is to differentiate between compounds and recurves, well it sure does that, but in a truly offbeat way, in my opinion. 

Recurvers will still shoot eliminations at 70m and then go into match play on a scoring target, whereas compounders will be doing scoring at 50m and then hit miss match play.

I would have thought the best way to differentiate between compounds and recurves is to produce a match for compounders which demonstrates both the power of the compounds - arrow speed and flat shooting - and their accuracy, this latter being the most important of all.

My own preference would have been to produce a round incorporating 50, 70 and 90m, say 4 ends at each range using the 80cm target at all 3 ranges and shooting the round in reverse order ie short range first and ending at 90m.

Now that would be a round that would truly distinguish between the bow types and not make compounders feel like they are being relegated to a sort of side show act while the recurvers get on with the real archery competition.


----------



## jerrytee (Feb 5, 2005)

Corsair said:


> I really can't understand why FITA chose this particular type of round for compound bows. If it is to differentiate between compounds and recurves, well it sure does that, but in a truly offbeat way, in my opinion.
> 
> Recurvers will still shoot eliminations at 70m and then go into match play on a scoring target, whereas compounders will be doing scoring at 50m and then hit miss match play.
> 
> ...


I agree, either that or push the distances out to 100, 80, and 60 meters on a 122cm face


----------



## Sighting In (Feb 5, 2009)

Corsair said:


> Now that would be a round that would truly distinguish between the bow types and not make compounders feel like they are being relegated to a sort of side show act while the recurvers get on with the real archery competition.


This is exactly how I feel. I haven't shot the hit/miss target yet, but it seams to have the feel of a novelty round. It just doesn't seem like something great and important. But we will see what FITA and USAA does...


----------



## Serious Fun (May 12, 2003)

Sighting In said:


> This is exactly how I feel. I haven't shot the hit/miss target yet, but it seams to have the feel of a novelty round. It just doesn't seem like something great and important. But we will see what FITA and USAA does...


Novelty round is an interesting term. May I suggest that it can mean different things to differnt people. 

I think if you speak with Steve Yee, he will tell you that the Hit and Miss 10cm target at 50 can be a very challenging effort. From what the archers tell me, it is a good thing that the round un official this year so as to allow archers to prepare for 2011 when the round is planned to become official for compound world championship and world cup competition. I understand that many will be experimenting with different scope setups to maximize performance. 

Sounds like a serious effort to me.


----------



## Corsair (Nov 21, 2005)

> I think if you speak with Steve Yee, he will tell you that the Hit and Miss 10cm target at 50 can be a very challenging effort. From what the archers tell me, it is a good thing that the round un official this year so as to allow archers to prepare for 2011 when the round is planned to become official for compound world championship and world cup competition. I understand that many will be experimenting with different scope setups to maximize performance.


You are clearly an advocate of the new system and would not be interested in what the rest of us are saying. I don't know where FITA got the idea of introducing this type of round for compounds but obviously they aren't going to change their minds. 

For me it is too big a change to ever be comfortable with particularly while recurvers continue to shoot 70m on a 122cm target and then a shoot off at the same range on scoring targets. One style of bow will remain true to the traditions and the other type will be reduced to something resembling a coconut shy in sideshow alley.

What is the rationale for using a hit miss system for compounds, particularly when a compound in the right hands is capable of producing outstanding accuracy. This hit miss system seems to me to put the compound bow on a lower level to the recurve or was that the intention?

You don't have to like what some of us are saying but we have the right to say it and just because FITA has decided on it doesn't make FITA right. This sort of round could well see the end of the compound in the Olympics before they even start and may also adversely affect recurvers as well. I very much doubt that this new format is going to bring hordes of spectators in. Time will certainly tell, won't it?


----------



## Guest (Apr 2, 2010)

I have shot this round and it certainly resembles a carnaval game, on what planet does shooting an arrow in the dirt equal a 1mm miss,well this round it does,now try explaining this with a straight face to anyone that this will show who the best archer is. After winning this event it wouldn't surprise me to see the winner get some cotton candy and a stuffed bear for their efforts, now off to practice my pitching pennies on a plate just incase they use that as a tie breaker round.


----------



## Corsair (Nov 21, 2005)

Well said - that echoes my sentiments exactly.


----------



## Sighting In (Feb 5, 2009)

Alright, so clearly we have some archers on here (myself included) who are less than excited about the new system. Chances are, we are not the only ones who feel the same way. Do you think FITA is listening? Are they hearing what the ARCHERS are saying about the rules? Do they care?

Serious questions, by the way. I really do want to know of they are listening to what we are saying.


----------



## Beastmaster (Jan 20, 2009)

Here's my personal take on this. 

1) At least FITA is listening and willing to make some sort of change. This, I admire and appreciate. 

If you think FITA is bad, look at the IOC. The other sport that I coach is baseball (I'm somewhat inactive in the past few months since my own son is more taken with archery than baseball). Baseball draws crowds way beyond what archery could dream of bringing in, brings in money way beyond what archery could dream of bringing in, but the IOC cut baseball out for whatever reasons they wanted to. 

This type of mindset is what makes it confusing for a governing body like FITA. They are taking a gamble in trying to differentiate compound shooting enough to make it as a exhibition dicipline in a future Olympic game. 

2) Do I support the effort? Yes. Do I like the target format? Not really. If supporting it meant that Compound archers could compete in a Summer Olympic game in the near to mid future? Hell, yes!

I'll break this one down. 

Do I support the effort. Yes, I do. It shows that FITA is forward thinking enough to make the attempt to get compounders into the games. Really cool, frankly. 

With that being said, it also hints that in the background, this format has better than a snowball's chance in Hades of being introduced and that it's been talked about at an IOC level. 

Do I like the target format? Not really. In my short two day escapade mixed in with being a booth babe (I was also working the Arizona State Archery Association booth at this Arizona Game and Fish expo), I've generated a slight dislike for the target. 

Compound archers are a strange lot and are given oodles of stuff to play with to tweak their bows to where the compound archer feels comfortable with their setup. Dots, up pins, lenses, releases, the list goes on and on. Some archers may find that this target face requires a different setup than a 70m target setup. 

With that being said, I also believe (someone can correct me on this - I'm using a Blackberry right now, I'm remote, and I can't do a lookup on it) that this hit/miss is combined with the set system. 

If an archer finds themselves behind on a set, they might as well sit down and wait for the new set to begin. If 3 arrows have been shot, and Archer A has 3 misses, Archer B has 3 hits, Archer A might as well sit out the remaining 3 shots and start up again in the new set.

So - strategy has to be rethought to play this game. 

Finally, will I support it if it means that Compounders can get into the 'big tournament that occurs every 4 years'? Yes. 

This is, frankly, an effort we all should get behind. The greater number of archers we can have in competition, the better. 

This isn't a 'you're with me or you're against me' type of statement, but people have to at least agree that change of some sort is good in this case. 

People at least has to go out and try it. The tinkering side of me is going out to try more later today, with a totally different bow setup than what I did at the expo. I may not like the target, but as an instructor, I do need to at least get a starting point to where I can advise future archers on what seems to work and what doesn't. 

And this is where I'm going to make my final statement, at least for this specific post. As with any sport, we as the adult archers in this dicipline should be encouraging growth of any kind out here, so that our next generation can enjoy greater opportunities than we had. 

The club I teach at has some amazing archers - many with such huge potential that if the opportunity arose to go try out for an Olympic team in compound, they would have more than a fighting chance. How dare that we hold an opportunity back for them to participate and grow the sport? 

We need to work with the change. Change is inevetable - we either work with it or get left behind. I really don't want to see compounders get left behind any more. 

-Steve
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## BigPete (Aug 13, 2005)

Like most things, I suspect it will come back to money. My suspicion is that the new compound format will become suddenly uninteresting for many compounders and they will find other venues. Dollars gone. Thus, failure is imminent. One dimensional FITA in terms of distance, hit/miss scoring, etc., is not appealing for many reasons already stated. The question becomes how soon they will recognize the failure and turn the boat around? More questions: How many compound competitors would have thought this would even remotely have been a good idea? How many were asked? How many recurve shooters would think it would be a good idea if the shoe were on the other foot?! So far, it sounds like zero. One of the beauties of being able to shoot outdoors is to shoot multiple distances and deal with the elements and success/arrow [for FITA] being measured in 1 though 10. My prediction is that FITA will lose on this one.......not only on the number of archers, but the supporting dollars that they bring to the party. I guess we'll see. I'm not sure how much the international FITA folks depend on compound dollars, but I suspect that USA Archery would and should be very concerned about compound dollars drying up. I'm just saying.............................


----------



## Corsair (Nov 21, 2005)

I believe that FITA's main motivation in bringing this round in is to generate interest in the public, attract heaps of spectators and thereby convince the media and IOC that it's worth keeping in the Olympics. But if that were so, then why not change the recurve to the same format? Recurvers at this level are arguably as good as compounders and this new type of "competition" would be equally well handled by them. Why let the recurvers keep the "traditional" format (what's left of it) and offer the compounders something that has dubious benefits for competitiors and spectators alike?

I get the feeling that FITA is prepared to prostitute the sport to whatever extent is necessary to keep it in the Olympics. I'm not certain that the end is justified by the means. Either our sport stands up as worthwhile in its own right or we don't particpate in what is rapidly becoming a flashy, trashy media circus which is resembling more and more the circus's of Roman times.

Perhaps we should be dressing our competitors in brief bikinis, just as the beach volleyballers do, and only allow attractive competitors to participate. That works well for them! And that seems to be what attracts the spectators the most. If its only going to be about spectator appeal then let's drop any pretence to particpating in a sport with a huge tradition requiring huge efforts to particpate in competitively at the highest level and look at it purely from the view of spectator/media appeal and do whatever it takes to gain and keep that.

It won't really be archery as people like me know it but it may well suit the new "values" that the present generation seems to have.

In any event, I believe that if spectator appeal is so important to our survival in the Games, then this change for compounders isn't going to cut it. I think crowds will find it even more boring that anything we have seen to date.

These are my own personal opinions of course but as a fee paying member of Archery Australia I am permitted this even though it may go against the mainstream, and one thing is certain - if this new change doesn't wotk out for us at the Olympic level than you can forget Archery's continued participation in the Games.


----------



## Sighting In (Feb 5, 2009)

Corsair said:


> I think crowds will find it even more boring that anything we have seen to date.


Actually, I think I am going to agree with this one. I enjoy watching the Archery TV videos on YouTube. They are made by FITA and show vids of world cups and championships. I spend my summer vacation watching the world cup that way, and I loved it. 

I was watching a video the other day. I am not sure of the competition, but I think it was the college world champs, and some recurve shooters were shooting at the hit/miss target. It was genuinely much more boring than the traditional five colored target. 

When you watch the regular targets and an archer shoots it out in the blue, tension builds because we want to see if they can make up 4 or 5 points and come out on top. If somebody puts it out that far on the hit/miss target, it is a miss and you move on. No pressure, it is just another miss. It really removes pressure and tension, which makes things exciting to watch.


----------



## Guest (Apr 3, 2010)

Beastmaster said:


> Here's my personal take on this.
> 
> 
> With that being said, I also believe (someone can correct me on this - I'm using a Blackberry right now, I'm remote, and I can't do a lookup on it) that this hit/miss is combined with the set system.
> ...




There is no strategy in archery, the archers keep shooting until a tie or winner for the set is determined, then on to the next set etc to the best of 3 or 5 depending on what round your in, so if you have a 3 hit lead with 2 arrows left shooting stops anyway


----------



## sundevilarchery (May 27, 2005)

Sighting In said:


> Actually, I think I am going to agree with this one. I enjoy watching the Archery TV videos on YouTube. They are made by FITA and show vids of world cups and championships. I spend my summer vacation watching the world cup that way, and I loved it.
> 
> I was watching a video the other day. I am not sure of the competition, but I think it was the college world champs, and some recurve shooters were shooting at the hit/miss target. It was genuinely much more boring than the traditional five colored target.
> 
> When you watch the regular targets and an archer shoots it out in the blue, tension builds because we want to see if they can make up 4 or 5 points and come out on top. If somebody puts it out that far on the hit/miss target, it is a miss and you move on. No pressure, it is just another miss. It really removes pressure and tension, which makes things exciting to watch.


I agree with that.


----------



## Serious Fun (May 12, 2003)

The Arizona State Archery Association Outdoor Championship has is April 3.  If folks want to try out the Hit and Miss at 50, we that target faces and space to give it a try. 

We have the 6 ringed 80 cm target face also for those that want to see if they can keep their arrows on in the scoring area at 50.

See ya...


----------



## Beastmaster (Jan 20, 2009)

Bringing this back from the archives...

I went ahead and took Paint Shop Pro to create a scaled target for indoor 20yd/18m use. 

After printing out a slew of them, I took them to the shop yesterday to have some of the regulars shoot it. 'Regulars' include shop shooters, students, and the 2010 JOAD Indoor National champion (for his category) James Rutherford. 

Today, I'm going to do the same thing, having regulars shoot it, plus have the 5-Spot league guys shoot it as a test. Today's test group will also include Adam Stringham, who's the Arizona State Indoor and Outdoor champ for 2010 in his youth category. 

And - Saturday's classes at the shop will be a fun day. Fun day will start to introduce the students to the set system and introduce the students formally to the 50m hit/miss target. 

Results/opinions yesterday somewhat mirrored my own view. James likes it for a training aid - his groups tightened up. James, who is blessed with young eyes and doesn't shoot with a clarifier or verifier, did not have the fiber pin blooming issue that I did. Others also commented on the recommendation to go with a vinyl dot. 

I'll post what I got on today's comments later tonight. 

Also, if anyone is interested in the PDF file to reproduce it on a color laser, let me know. The blue isn't exactly the same color - blame that one on me. I didn't have the Pantone color number to match it up so I just guessed. 

More as I get it. 

-Steve
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Sighting In (Feb 5, 2009)

Sounds cool, Steve. Sadly, though, I don't know if I can make it to the shop tonight. It turns out I will be doing league on Friday night, but I might be able to drop by for an hour or two today. We will see, but I am very excited to try it out.


----------



## Beastmaster (Jan 20, 2009)

Sighting In said:


> Sounds cool, Steve. Sadly, though, I don't know if I can make it to the shop tonight. It turns out I will be doing league on Friday night, but I might be able to drop by for an hour or two today. We will see, but I am very excited to try it out.


If you can, bring your bow. If not, there's 40 copies of the target so you can get one and shoot it whenever. I'm shooting league on Friday as well. It would be good to get Randy K's and Walt's view on it....

-Steve


----------



## Serious Fun (May 12, 2003)

8-50M compound round and 8-Six ringed 80 cm targets were set up at the 2010 AAE AZ Cup for the archers to try out. 
There were no holes in any of them at the end of official practice day.
My suggestion is to conduct some event for the archers to try out the target faces. 
The target faces were printed in the USA by FITA approved printer, Maple Leaf Press. They are available for purchase.


----------



## Beastmaster (Jan 20, 2009)

Serious Fun said:


> 8-50M compound round and 8-Six ringed 80 cm targets were set up at the 2010 AAE AZ Cup for the archers to try out.
> There were no holes in any of them at the end of official practice day.
> My suggestion is to conduct some event for the archers to try out the target faces.
> The target faces were printed in the USA by FITA approved printer, Maple Leaf Press. They are available for purchase.


I'd love to use the full sized targets, but as you know, we're kind of limited at the shop to 20 yards. And calling an outdoor range day isn't easily feasible as we head into summer.

I can say that the scaling worked out well. My pin bloom issue on the scope head was just as bad indoor as it was outdoor, so the proportions were spot on. 

-Steve


----------

