# What's the difference in a Top end riser than a mid priced one?



## arrowchucker222 (Jun 17, 2013)

With the price of some riser going north of $800 what benefits are there over a mid-priced riser say $400. I can see the difference in the cheap stuff but $800??? One more question, I see coaches recommend the best riser you can afford and cheap limbs. Don't the limbs throw the arrow? They are the only moving part.


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## kshet26 (Dec 20, 2010)

Besides better finishes, different materials, and perhaps tighter tolerances, but probably not much.

Coaches recommend the best riser and the cheapest limbs because you'll be moving up in poundage and need new limbs every 4-6 pounds.


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## steve morley (Dec 24, 2005)

Not all risers are the same some mid price range risers are better than their price range, the high end expensive risers use higher grade materials, manufacturing procedures and normally are made stiffer. The question you need to ask, is your skill level good enough to make the most from that high end riser?

Of course functionality and looks play a big part in our choices.


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## rdneckhillbilly (Jan 25, 2010)

I am going to guess the main difference is price. LOL!


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## UKNick (Apr 20, 2012)

Carbon fibre has to be better than aluminium - stiffer, more stable dimensions with climatic variation, much better strength to weight ratio (ultimate tensile 5 times stronger than machined 6061 T6) and less resonant so less vibration and shock. Looks really wouldn't matter to me. Don't know how much carbon risers vary but that would be my priority. If that means a high end riser, its a high end riser id get.


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## centershot (Sep 13, 2002)

True, but............at what point is it overkill? And what is the point of diminishing returns on your investment are a couple questions that should also be ask.


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## gif (Jul 14, 2012)

spending a bunch of money on high quality limbs only to mount them on a bent/flexible/low quality riser will give away most of the performance that high dollar limbs provide. Mounting cheap limbs on a high quality riser will end up being much more consistent and stable.


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## grantmac (May 31, 2007)

Honestly it comes down to what you consider value. Many risers these days you are simply paying for more color selection and perhaps slightly nicer finish.

However I don't think a person can get better than one of the Italian risers and they are almost all under $600. The designs also don't change on a yearly basis, in my opinion they have found what works and are sticking to it.

-Grant


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## K31Scout (Sep 17, 2003)

Some top end expensive risers more flexible than others. Hoyt Nexus vs Hoyt Helix for example. Both high end risers a few years ago with a different feel.
No aluminum riser made today is going to bend from limb action. The thing that's very personal about risers is the grip. Hard to make a grip that fits the masses.


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## MickeyBisco (Jul 14, 2012)

Why choose? One has a plethora of "last year's high end" going back a few years, at drastically modest prices, compared to mid-range offerings. A RX, HPX, Helix or Nexus can go for 200-500, used. I picked up my W&W Exfeel for a song, and it was on the podium in '04. I'd take it over most intermediate offerings. Heck, the styling bears remarkable similarities to the newest PSE. I really enjoy its feel and balance, so much so that the HPX sits at home right now. I can't imagine things have changed drastically in riser development in 9 years. It's ILF. 

R&D costs have to be returned somehow, and as with the Maybach or any other "elite" product... Someone will buy it, because they can.


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## Dacer (Jun 10, 2013)

its pretty clear that for every 200 dollars more you spend it easily gets you at least another 30-40 points on the score card. Fact. 

when I say fact I mean probably. like 10% of the time you have a 50/50 chance, always.


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## DruFire (Jan 10, 2013)

I would suggest, start with a cheap riser, cheap limbs, GOOD sight ( you'll never upgrade it. )

While learning, and using the " cheap bow " try out as many other bows as you can at local ranges/clubs. You will eventually find one that you know is " the ONE bow " for you. Then go all in.


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## Vittorio (Jul 17, 2003)

kshet26 said:


> Besides better finishes, different materials, and perhaps tighter tolerances, but probably not much.
> .........


Design concepts make the real difference in risers, but surely these differencies are not related to price, as for instance Best Archery risers are still on top of sales and preferences in Italy after 13 years from introduction, despite being ever the same products and being priced at medium level.


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## jmvargas (Oct 21, 2004)

when i became serious with olympic archery almost 10 years ago i tried to get the best riser i could afford and like as this was a piece of equipment--together with sights--that would probably stay with me a long time as i hopefully improved..

after much experimentation(2 elans,4 matrixes, 1 aurora,2 gms), i settled on the pse x-factor and sureloc quest-X/supreme and had 5 x-factors pass thru my hands and finally chose my red and black ones as my main gamers..

...to date i still haven't found any of the newer risers that i would exchange for my x-factors and definitely no sights i would swap with my surelocs---but that's just me.


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## rstgyx (Apr 13, 2013)

If you're interested in pursuing archery in the near future you might as well get high quality equipment so you won't have to buy it twice. Of course this doesn't apply to all the gear you'll be needing. You can start off with a cheap pair of limbs, plunger and arrow rest and upgrade those later down the track, but for a riser, sight and stabiliser setup (Stabilisers are debatable) I'd rather buy it once and be over with it. Generally if you calculate the costs it's better in the long run if you buy higher end equipment.


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## GBUSA (Jun 6, 2013)

Look at all the Porsche, Lamborghini, Ferrari, ect performance cars you see on the road every day. 
Ask yourself how many of them do you think ever see their limits, and how many of those drivers can actually drive those cars at the limits.
That's probably a lot like what you find in archery. 

I personally like the build quality of the mid level risers I own, over that of the lower tier risers I've seen, or owned.
But I'm also honest enough with myself to know that I'll never outshoot my Winex riser, so I'll probably never have an actual reason to move into the top tier equipment.

GB


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## agillator (Sep 11, 2011)

The biggest obvious functional difference I have found between risers of different prices is ease of limb adjustments, from impossible (SF Axiom, Rolan, Hoyt Excel though shimming can allow some adjustment), to inconvenient (SF Forged+ where the bow must be unstrung and four screws must be removed to get to the limb adjustment screws), to easy (Hoyt Avalon Plus, GMX). For people who never change limbs one might be as good as another. For those of us who do change a good number of limbs you shouldn't underestimate the value of making alignment easy.

Beyond that there is cast vs forged vs machined, different finishes, weight, grip geometry and feel, stiffness, balance, bushing location, .... 

It is not helpful when people say "get the best riser you can afford" or "get high quality equipment". With no absolute metric to define "best" or "high quality" such advice is meaningless. E.g. some people consider a stiff riser to be best, while others want some flex. For others having minimal adjustments might be a plus. It also ignores the problem of distributing investment among arrows, sights, risers, limbs, stabilizers, tournament travel, lessons, etc.. It would be naive to assume that spending more on a riser gets you more. 

By far the best value-for-the-money is in used equipment, so if money is a concern rather than generalizing about new stuff focus on what is currently available in the used market. But buying used can take more time than buying new so if you are very short on time and have the money new might be the way to go.

The most important thing to look for in equipment is what will free your mind to focus on shooting.


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## jmvargas (Oct 21, 2004)

i agree that statement like "get the best riser you can afford" may be meaningless without more specifics..

...in my case i knew right away that the riser i liked were the softer ones and lightweight and limited my choices to those that had these characteristics..

i also didn't want the quality of my equipment to become an excuse for poor results...


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## Seattlepop (Dec 8, 2003)

I think an answer to another Q&A I came across years ago may apply to some aspects of archery as well. The question was "What computer should I buy?" The answer was: "It doesn't matter since any one you buy will far exceed your capacity to use it".

Speaking for myself, of course.


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## ArtV (Jan 29, 2008)

Nothing that the average shooter would ever notice. Possibly the grip is the one item that will make any difference for the average shooter from riser to riser. The grips can be changed, remolded, etc. But, it's easy to tell yourself, "If I had a better riser, more expensive riser, the one the elite shooters are using....I could shoot better."


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## Viper1 (Aug 21, 2003)

AC -

We have basic guidelines when a "better" riser will pay off, based on indoor 300 (blue) scores.
Most of my shooters start with the Excel or Horizon, but the latter is being rapidly replaced by the SF Forged Plus. 
On the 300 target, when shooters get into the 270/280 range, it's usually time to start thinking about upgrades - both limb and risers.
That's usually within one to two years.

The higher priced risers usually have tighter tolerances, better balance/weight and more options (for example the Excel and Horizon risers only have one stab bushing).
The fit and finish are usually better as well.
By that time (hopefully) the shooter will also have an idea about the "type" of riser he/she wants. For example, do they want a lighter / heavier base piece or one that s more rigid or more flexible and yes, tastes in appearance do change as well.

How much of a difference will a high end riser make on your score card? 
Excluding the psychological factors (which isn't easy to do), it can be a few points to a few percent, with the former being more likely, but when shooting over the 280 bracket and getting into the 290s, those few points do matter.

The flip side, and this is only based on personal statistics, those who start off with high end risers (and/or limbs) typically do worse than those who working into the higher $$$ stuff. Just my observations. 

Viper1 out.


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## fredf (Sep 19, 2013)

For me, just starting out, the decision is between the SF Forged Plus and the W&W Winex. Unfortunately my local shop doesn't have the Winex in stock and so I can't try it before I buy it. 
I've been using their rental equipment at present and so have no real experience with the SF. It felt fine to hold briefly in the shop.
I'm getting the SF Premium limbs because I've heard they are comfortable and they are at a price point that I won't cry when the time comes to replace them. 
But the riser......is Winex worth $200 more than the Forged Plus?


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## Viper1 (Aug 21, 2003)

fred - 

I can only give you my opinion.
For a new shooter, no. 
Later on, maybe - see above.

Viper1 out.


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## fredf (Sep 19, 2013)

Viper 1: That makes sense but I guess I was figuring that instead of paying $285 now for the SF and then $485 if I go to the Winex, I could pay the $485 now and be there already.
Nothing used ever comes up in my area for either of these two risers.


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## Viper1 (Aug 21, 2003)

fred - 

In the next two years, two things are certain to happen:
1. There will be more Winex risers (and others) on the used market (AT/FITA Classified section, eBay, etc) and
2. There will be something new and improved out, that you will "have to have" instead of the Winex.

See the madness to my method?

_Edit 
Here's the reality. Right now you believe that the better (read more expensive) riser will do something for you, the "entry level" riser won't. 
Right now, that's just not the case, but I did mention the psychological effects in an earlier post. Really can't discount that.
So it has to be your call. 
If you believe the less expensive riser will put you at a disadvantage, then go for the Winex._

Viper1 out.


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## dchan (Jun 29, 2004)

Viper1 said:


> AC -
> 
> We have basic guidelines when a "better" riser will pay off, based on indoor 300 (blue) scores.
> Most of my shooters start with the Excel or Horizon, but the latter is being rapidly replaced by the SF Forged Plus.
> ...


+1

This whole post bears repeating. Very well put.

Highlighted in red, Maybe it's because the people that work their way up understand the concept of archer first, then equipment, where those that think the equipment is so important, they will blame the equipment when they falter instead of looking at them selves.


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## Viper1 (Aug 21, 2003)

d - 

Thanks buddy and that's exactly my take on it. The "too much too soon" syndrome.
Like you said, it's the Indian, not the arrow (or the riser...).

Viper1 out.


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## GBUSA (Jun 6, 2013)

fredf said:


> Viper 1: That makes sense but I guess I was figuring that instead of paying $285 now for the SF and then $485 if I go to the Winex, I could pay the $485 now and be there already.
> Nothing used ever comes up in my area for either of these two risers.


 I think starting with the moderate increase in riser quality you mention is a pretty good plan. It could also have a slightly positive effect on the new archer, If only because the mid range risers with their tighter tolerances are easier/less time consuming to make adjustments too compared with some of the cheaper risers.

That finer, more positive adjustment could help you get your bow set up and running well a little bit quicker, and thus keep you more interested in shooting it. 
The negative reinforcement from chasing equipment gremlins in any sport is never fun.

As has been mentioned, there probably isn't any good reason to start with an $800 riser, but I don't see that spending the extra $200 dollars will keep you off some future Olympic archery team. Of course it isn't going to get you a spot on the team either.

I can tell you that I like my Winex riser far more than the Cartel Midas riser I bought as my first ILF riser. For me, in hindsight it would have been worth the cost difference.

Ymmv,
GB


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## fredf (Sep 19, 2013)

Thanks for the responses. More to ponder.....


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## bobnikon (Jun 10, 2012)

Also things to watch out for... but you have to be fast.
A TR7 just went in the classifieds for $550 and an ION-X went on Ebay 1hr ago for $480. There are great deals to be had on high end risers which brings them well into the "mid" range. Something else to ponder...


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## Jim C (Oct 15, 2002)

Having had lots of experience in various sports I will note something lots do not know

There are the obvious answers-the Expensive Riser Costs proportionately more than the medium priced one

and in some cases that is the reason

IN Skeet shooting for example, the K-80, the Perazzi Mirage or the Beretta DT-10/11 cost many thousand dollars- do they shoot "better" than the 2-3K Beretta 682 or the Browning Citori line? Probably not but the former guns have higher quality construction-machined steel parts rather than castings etc.

So its the durability and quality of construction that costs more. I shot K guns and Perazzis as well as the cheaper jobs. scored pretty much the same-and I was at about a 1350 level FITA when it came to skeet.

Now I also play table tennis. THe cost of rubber sheets we use on our paddles go from 5 dollars to almost 100. The cost of making the rubber is not nearly that great. But there is a performance curve that jacks the price up. The Five Dollar Chinese 729 has won lots of titles. 30 years ago-when it was hard to get, it cost more than the now more expensive Japanese sheets like Mark V (2008 Olympic gold medalist choice). what that makers often do is have their cheaper lines priced based on cost of construction etc and then increase the price proportionately based on PERCEIVED performance of the higher lines.

Tennis racquet cost used to be based on the ratio of the cheaper fiberglass vs the more expensive carbon/Graphite 

so when it comes to risers-you have to account for 

1) cost of construction

2) perceived increase in performance that will "justify" people paying more even if the cost of production isn't much different


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## Number46 (Dec 26, 2012)

Fredf, without knowing any specifics about your situation and using only the info from your questions as my basis I would say this. The difference you would see between the SF Forged or the Winex for $200 more would probably be very little if any. The difference you would see between the SF Forged and $200 worth of coaching versus the Winex with no coaching would be huge. I'd choose the SF and coaching every time.


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## arrowyn (Jul 4, 2013)

Now this is the story all about how 
My bow concept got flipped, turned upside down 
And I'd like to take a minute just sit right there 
of how expense set ups, I shouldn't really care




In east lake oly training center form born and raised 
In the archery range where I spent most of my days 
Chilling out, X-ing, relaxing all cool 
And all shooting some XX75's jsut out of the school 

When a couple of JOAD kids, their scores no good 
Said their shooting would be better if elite bows they could
got one little fight and assistant coach got scared
and the head said 'lemme show you equipment doesn't care!'

He whistled to me and when he came near my
polaris was fifty and down range mirages like a mirror
after anything but gold I could say, that this shot was rare
but I thought, nah, forget it, equipment doesn't care

He pulled up to shoot another seven or eight
and he yelled, "Goldy, your form kids, strike X's later"
Looked at my bow dumb, I was finally knew more
As coach sat on his throne after polaris gold scores


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## fredf (Sep 19, 2013)

Ok. I'm going with the SB riser and have started lessons with a coach who seems knowledgeable.
Thanks for all the advice and sorry to the OP for hijacking the thread.


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## GBUSA (Jun 6, 2013)

fredf said:


> Ok. I'm going with the SB riser and have started lessons with a coach who seems knowledgeable.
> Thanks for all the advice and sorry to the OP for hijacking the thread.


And if or when you decide to move into a new riser, do as Erik suggested and visit the classifieds here on AT. You can sell your rig to someone else just starting out, while finding a good deal on an upgrade from some great people you will enjoy dealing with.

Good luck & enjoy.
GB


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## steve morley (Dec 24, 2005)

Although I'm an experienced tourney Archer (Longbow) I made the change to Recurve just over 2 years ago, starting out with a Kap riser then purchased a Pro-Accent used Riser 1/2 price from W&W dealer and Pro limbs new on sale -40%, I progressed to a used Italian riser "Nilo" but found handle didn't suit me and this year I got a new Moon Riser with Border Hex limbs. Although I was a experienced shooter I still wasn't 100% sure if I was going to stay with Recurve, and as I developed I began to take an interest in Barebow I've now switched from Bowhunter to Barebow Stringwalking style and my setup has grown and changed with me.

Just for this reason it is wise when starting out not to jump in with top of the line equipment, in my opinion it is better to grow with your equipment as you never quite know the direction it will take you, I had no idea at the time I wanted to shoot Barebow but as my exposure to this style increased at tourneys, with it my interest for the style and respect for the shooters.

Think of your first setup as a stepping stone to greater things and enjoy the journey.


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## Jeb-D. (Sep 21, 2011)

Steve, 
You need to take it one step further and go from barebow to using a sight/stabilizers/clicker. Estonia needs some archery representation in the Olympics


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## hwjchan (Oct 24, 2011)

Number46 said:


> Fredf, without knowing any specifics about your situation and using only the info from your questions as my basis I would say this. The difference you would see between the SF Forged or the Winex for $200 more would probably be very little if any. The difference you would see between the SF Forged and $200 worth of coaching versus the Winex with no coaching would be huge. I'd choose the SF and coaching every time.


This is the exactly true. I love my Forged+. It does everything a CXT does, same adjustment styles, and it shoots just as well. It's about the shot and the archer so much more than it is about the equipment. That said, there definitely are things you shouldn't skimp on.


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## steve morley (Dec 24, 2005)

Jeb-D. said:


> Steve,
> You need to take it one step further and go from barebow to using a sight/stabilizers/clicker. Estonia needs some archery representation in the Olympics


They did have representation in 2012 London games Reena Parnat and she is FAR betting looking than me :wink: in fact I would go as far and say she is stunningly beautiful like a lot of Estonian women, that's why I live here, Summer in Tallinn is like Heaven on Earth, I think this where the Angels come for Holidays.:angel:

http://pilt.delfi.ee/album/258649/?view=blog


Katrin just purchased a full Fita target rig yesterday, I will try it also.


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## Jeb-D. (Sep 21, 2011)

She is definitely cute and probably lonely (in need of a teammate)  

I think it will be an easy transition for you if you go for the open ring aperture on the sight, if you haven’t already tried one. Even though all the do-dads hanging off the bow doesn’t look as cool as barebow, it feels nice not having to compromise form or tune for the sake of aiming. And having confidence in your aim and not having to fight with yourself to make aiming corrections. For me, it's also nice being able to shoot split-finger without being at a disadvantage. Since you shot longbow for so long, I imagine it will be a nice treat for you too.


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## jmvargas (Oct 21, 2004)

IIRC John Magera a.k.a. Limbwalker really enjoys barebow and he became one of the best Olympic recurve shooters in the USA...

just not sure if he shot barebow before Olympic recurves or vice versa..


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## steve morley (Dec 24, 2005)

jmvargas said:


> IIRC John Magera a.k.a. Limbwalker really enjoys barebow and he became one of the best Olympic recurve shooters in the USA...
> 
> just not sure if he shot barebow before Olympic recurves or vice versa..



As I recall John was a Longbow shooter and was involved in Coaching and decided to try Oly style so he better understood what he was teaching, it's a great story, they should make a movie :wink:


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## Greysides (Jun 10, 2009)

steve morley said:


> As I recall John was a Longbow shooter and was involved in Coaching and decided to try Oly style so he better understood what he was teaching, it's a great story, they should make a movie :wink:


Who would play the villain?


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## steve morley (Dec 24, 2005)

Greysides said:


> Who would play the villain?


The Trad Police :wink:


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## grantmac (May 31, 2007)

greysides said:


> who would play the villain?


gt?


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