# How do you set arrow center shot?



## richz (Mar 13, 2004)

I have a 2006 BowTech Allegiance and I would like to know how to set the arrow-center shot correctly. My arrow rest allen head screw wasn't tight enough and the left to right adjustment changed on me at a 3-D shoot this weekend. My BowTech owners manual doesn't tell about how to set it either. Could someone please help me.


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## archeryhunterME (Feb 12, 2006)

the easiest thing to start out with is mount the rest with an arrow on it, and then center it on the arrow shelf, and look from behind the bow, making the string in the very center and see if the arrow is on the string, then shoot it and see if it is left or right and fine tune it from there


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## steve hilliard (Jun 26, 2002)

start off at 7/8 of an inch from riser to center of shaft


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## Doc Holliday (May 21, 2002)

archeryhunterME said:


> the easiest thing to start out with is mount the rest with an arrow on it, and then center it on the arrow shelf, and look from behind the bow, making the string in the very center and see if the arrow is on the string, then shoot it and see if it is left or right and fine tune it from there


Yeah I usually hold the bow in front of me and make sure the string runs center of the limbs, grip, and straight down the nocked arrow.

I do walkback tuning after that to about 40-50 yds.

After that, you should be good to go. :thumbs_up


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## Oxford (Jun 26, 2002)

http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=454036

here ya go


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## Wood (Aug 3, 2006)

Take a piece of masking tape and put it on the inside of the top limb just above the limb pocket. Make a mark on the tape the same distance from the edge of the limb as your string. Mine is about 9/16". Then you can put an arrow on and look down it from behind to see if the string, mark and arrow all line up.


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## bfisher (Nov 30, 2002)

Are you saying that you had your bow set and tuned, and as a set screw came loose the rest moved? Man, this is so easy. If the bow was tuned and sighted in then all you do is shoot the bow and move your rest to where the sight is aiming. Try 20 yards first, adjusting for the bullseye; then 30 yards and so on for more fine tuning.


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## bfisher (Nov 30, 2002)

bfisher said:


> Are you saying that you had your bow set and tuned, and as a set screw came loose the rest moved? Man, this is so easy. If the bow was tuned and sighted in then all you do is shoot the bow and move your rest to where the sight is aiming. Try 20 yards first, adjusting for the bullseye; then 30 yards and so on for more fine tuning.


 I want to be specific. Don't move the sight or pins. Move the rest to match the sight setting.


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## richz (Mar 13, 2004)

I also moved the sight pin left and right, so I have to start all over again with setting up my arrow rest. How do you start setting up center shot?


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## outback jack (Aug 12, 2006)

Walk back is the easiest way I have seen to get center shot. Just start off by looking from behind and get the string in the center of the limbs and riser and put the arrow so it lines up with the string, then do walk back tuning.


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## 88 PS190 (Sep 26, 2006)

Definatley walk back.

If you want to be closer to begin with take a bow square, hold the extension against the riser, with the T portion horizontal mark the center of the arrow with a marker.

Flip the square to the other side of the bow, if the arrow is centered on the mark you have it square.

If its not move your rest so it is, and repeat till the mark on both sides is the same. therefore the arrow is going parallel to the riser and is at "centershot"

then do your walkback tune, its required.


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## AlaskaFlyerFan (Mar 13, 2007)

richz said:


> I also moved the sight pin left and right, so I have to start all over again with setting up my arrow rest. How do you start setting up center shot?


Here's something I've done in the past. Take a wire hanger, cut and bend it into an L shape. Find a flat spot on your riser. I used the area where the sights attach. With an arrow nocked, press the long leg of the hanger against the riser in that spot. Lay the short leg of the hanger on top of the arrow at the nock an mark the hanger with a sharpie or something that you are able to see. You have to transfer the mark to the oppodite side of the hanger. Now turn the hangar around and press the long leg of the hanger against the riser in that spot. Lay the short leg of the hanger on top of the arrow and adjust your rest so your arrow is under the mark. That is your starting point. Then you can paper tune or walk back tune (your preference). Hope this helps. :darkbeer: 

p.s. I've since bought a E Z Eye laser. :wink:


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

88 PS190 said:


> Definatley walk back.
> 
> If you want to be closer to begin with take a bow square, hold the extension against the riser, with the T portion horizontal mark the center of the arrow with a marker.
> 
> ...


Walk back tuning to set the arrow rest position (centershot)

AND then,

set the sight windage (horizontal position of your pins or lens)...


Hang a weighted string from a nail on a target. 

Stick a round sticker on the target face so that the string splits the sticker. Use your existing 20-yd pin, step back 20-yards from the target and fire at the sticker. 

Don't worry about where the arrow hits. 

Walk straight back to 30 yds, and using the same 20-yd pin setting, 
fire an arrow at the sticker. 

Repeat at 35 yds and at 40 yds, using the 20-yd pin and firing at the sticker.

If your arrows look like this pattern " / " or “\”, 
then pick a direction and move your arrow rest 1/16th inch. 












If the pattern gets straighter (more vertical), then that is great. Keep adjusting in that direction.












If the pattern gets more crooked, then adjust in the other direction.

Keep firing arrows and keep adjusting the arrow rest position until you get a vertical pattern of arrows.

Eventually, your arrows will hit in the target is a straight up and down line like this " | ". 












LOCK down the arrow rest setting. Your centershot is perfect.



But, your vertical pattern of arrows may not be hitting the string. 

The vertical pattern of arrows may be on one side of the string.
Let’s say the arrows are say 6-inches to the left of the weighted string.










Pick a direction to adjust your sight ring windage. Adjust the sight ring windage 1/16th of an inch. Repeat the test. Fire arrows at least 3 distances, and see if the vertical pattern of arrows gets closer to the string.

If the vertical pattern of arrows is getting closer to the string, then that is great. Keep adjusting in that direction. If the vertical pattern of arrows is getting farther away, then adjust in the other direction.

Eventually, you will have a vertical pattern of arrows right on top of the string.

Lock down the windage and lock down the arrow rest. Windage and center shot are now perfect.


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## J-Daddy (Aug 7, 2003)

Dang somebody give Nuts & Bolts a cookie...That had to be the most detailed post on AT for a few years....Good job man.


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## PB26 (Dec 31, 2006)

J-Daddy said:


> Dang somebody give Nuts & Bolts a cookie...That had to be the most detailed post on AT for a few years....Good job man.


Ditto.


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## Marius (Aug 9, 2006)

Will somebody please inspire bolts and nuts to write a technical book on archery.


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## IChim2 (Aug 20, 2006)

I made my own center shot tool using a 1/8" steel rod and a o-ring....works perfect and less than 2$.


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## richz (Mar 13, 2004)

Thank you for your time and effort explaining the center shot walk back in detail, ALSOME!!!
Rich


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## ShootingABN! (Nov 1, 2005)

*N&b*

That's just 2 Kool... :darkbeer:


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## princejohn (Mar 6, 2007)

*centre shot*

This is a variation on "nuts" and others. I have a clear piece of perspex about 8" long on which I have scribed lines parallel to on edge. Set an arrow on the bow- if using a drop away rise the rest - place perspex against bow window on top of arrow and match one of teh scribed lines with the arrow . Adjust until line is straight with arrow.
With walk back which seems to be the favourite method the longer the distances shot over the greater the accuracy unfortunately it is only possible to shoot over say 20yds before the arrow drops off target. To get the greatest distance I rely on Accurate Sights or some other program. With these u will notice that the sight setting at around 5yds is the same as the sight setting for around 50yds (Bowtech 57# 297grn ACE) Set teh sight for 5yds and shoot at a small dot when consistantly hitting. Move back to 50(?)yds with no alteration to sight shoot again and mopve rest L or R until arrow hitting target centre


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## Deezlin (Feb 5, 2004)

IChim2 said:


> I made my own center shot tool using a 1/8" steel rod and a o-ring....works perfect and less than 2$.


This is a very good tool. I have something similar. I would still do a walk back, but you won't make much of an improvement.


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## eyedoc (Aug 17, 2005)

Another vote for walk back tuning. Follow Nuts and Bolts method above and your bow will be set at perfect centershot.


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## srcarlso (Mar 3, 2005)

*Laser*

I use a laser setup which mounts to the sight holes...adjust it to get it centered on the string then swing the head to set the arrow. A check done by walk-back tuning confirmed this to be a great method (at least on my bow with me shooting).


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## dtrkyman (Jul 27, 2004)

put an arrow on your rest,take another arrow and but it up against the riser or the edge of the shelf above the frip and see if the are even,good place to start before fine tuning.


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## big cypress (Jul 31, 2006)

i understand your concept and like it but what the devil is the 'frip' ? please..


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

big cypress said:


> i understand your concept and like it but what the devil is the 'frip' ? please..


"...put an arrow on your rest,take another arrow and butt it up against the riser or the edge of the shelf above the *Grip *"


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## Bow Walker (Aug 28, 2004)

IChim2 said:


> I made my own center shot tool using a 1/8" steel rod and a o-ring....works perfect and less than 2$.


I can't seem to get my head around how this would be setup to work 

Can someone explain it to me - slowly - please??:embara:


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

Bow Walker said:


> I can't seem to get my head around how this would be setup to work
> 
> Can someone explain it to me - slowly - please??:embara:



The steel rod with a rubber o-ring is essentially
the "straight ruler" concept.

Similar idea by using an arrow shaft held tight against the riser.

Put your bow into a bow vise.
Rotate the bow so you have the string vertical.
Make sure the bow is not tilted left or right.

Now, nock an arrow on the string
and put the arrow onto the arrow rest.

Hold an extra arrow tightly against the riser.

You now have two arrows side by side.
Look at the gap between the two arrows.
Adjust the arrow rest horizontal position (centershot)
so the gap looks even between the loaded arrow
and
your "arrow" straightedge (ruler).


You could also use the "L" shaped piece of steel rod.
Adjust the rubber o-ring to just touch the right hand edge of the arrow shaft that is loaded. You hold the long straight section of the metal rod
tight against your riser.

Adjust the o-ring to touch the right edge of the arrow shaft
near the tip of the arrow.


Now,
flip over the metal rod
and use the short section of the metal rod
with the o-ring to see if the o-ring touches
the right edge of the arrow shaft,
close to the nock.

ADJUST the arrow rest horizontal position
until the measurement to the right edge of the arrow near the point
is the same as
the measurement to the right edge of the arrow near the nock.


You are using the "L" shaped piece of metal rod
to confirm that the "gap" between the right edge of the arrow
shaft loaded on your bow
is equal distance to an imaginary line or metal rod
held tight against your riser.


Any of these ruler techniques will get you close.

The assumption is that the riser DOES NOT TWIST
when your cable guard bow is at full draw.

Actually,
a cable guard bow will twist a TINY amount
when the bow is at full draw.

The amount of TWIST depends on the bow
and the draw weight.


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## Doc Holliday (May 21, 2002)

Bow Walker said:


> I can't seem to get my head around how this would be setup to work
> 
> Can someone explain it to me - slowly - please??:embara:


See post#12.

Same principle.


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## Deezlin (Feb 5, 2004)

Bow Walker said:


> I can't seem to get my head around how this would be setup to work
> 
> Can someone explain it to me - slowly - please??:embara:



I do this a little different. I place the long leg on the back side of the riser around the sight mount area. Then the short leg goes over the string end. I move the o-ring to the center of the string with the leg perpendicular to the string. 

Now, I nock an arrow and raise the rest, if necessary. I reverse the long leg and see if the o-ring touches the center of the shaft in front of the riser. I make adjustments until it does.

This will get you close to center shot and a walk back will finalize.


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## Bow Walker (Aug 28, 2004)

Thank you all for clearing that up for me - much appreciated. Now I can actually try it.


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## big cypress (Jul 31, 2006)

we are all assuming that side of riser is cast or machined in same plane in which we wish the arrow to fly . machined it's probably true but cast riser im not so sure . but at least it's a starting point .


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## Deezlin (Feb 5, 2004)

big cypress said:


> we are all assuming that side of riser is cast or machined in same plane in which we wish the arrow to fly . machined it's probably true but cast riser im not so sure . but at least it's a starting point .


I would hope so, since I usually use the sight mount or close to it. Yes, it is not substitute for walk back tuning, but may have to surfice until someone has the adequate shooting skills to walk back tune.


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## bowgramp59 (Apr 12, 2007)

*center tune*

i took 2 of those allen bits from 2 of those cheap screw driver sets that fit my limb bolts, cut slots in them with my dremel tool. put 1 in each of the limb bolts and stretch a strting from them.i took an old arrow and cut it so it fits between the the two strings, with a nock and fieldpoint.with rest installed at the ht. you want, nock the little arrow and lay it in the rest and move the rest until the point is pointing to the string , that is true center. i wear tri focals so i have to ajust my sights , some people don't.

2008 martin moab
2008 " bengal


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## cmherrmann (Jun 1, 2004)

bowgramp59 said:


> i took 2 of those allen bits from 2 of those cheap screw driver sets that fit my limb bolts, cut slots in them with my dremel tool. Put 1 in each of the limb bolts and stretch a strting from them.i took an old arrow and cut it so it fits between the the two strings, with a nock and fieldpoint.with rest installed at the ht. You want, nock the little arrow and lay it in the rest and move the rest until the point is pointing to the string , that is true center. I wear tri focals so i have to ajust my sights , some people don't.
> 
> 2008 martin moab
> 2008 " bengal[/quote
> ...


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## Roskoe (Apr 15, 2007)

So - OK - I go through the walk back procedure and get everything set up in a nice vertical format. Do you consider paper tuning the next step? Then start comparing the impact point of field points to fixed blade broadheads? If the broadheads are hitting 4" left of the field points at 20 yards, do you trust the centershot and just move the sight - or do you move the arrow rest and try to get them to shoot to the same spot?


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## mmcaleer (Dec 20, 2005)

Nuts&Bolts,

Thanks for the information on Walk Back Tuning. I had never heard of this method before so I went to the range today to see how my center shot was. Well I was off quite a bit. My shots were stepped down to the right. I used your method to correct the center shot and now I am perfect all the way out to 60 yards! I did it all in about 45 minutes on the range. I always did paper tuning or just measurements which never really worked too well for me. Now I have a greater confidence with my bow. 

Thanks


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## Tfox1 (Dec 11, 2008)

mmcaleer said:


> Nuts&Bolts,
> 
> Thanks for the information on Walk Back Tuning. I had never heard of this method before so I went to the range today to see how my center shot was. Well I was off quite a bit. My shots were stepped down to the right. I used your method to correct the center shot and now I am perfect all the way out to 60 yards! I did it all in about 45 minutes on the range. I always did paper tuning or just measurements which never really worked too well for me. Now I have a greater confidence with my bow.
> 
> Thanks




NOW,that you have walk back tuned,do some group tuning.


Nuts and bolts diagram shows you how your groups can look when you have not group tuned.This will require very fine adjustments to the rest left and right.

The way to do this is first,mark your rest settings with a marker.(so you don't lose them)Then stand at the furthest distance you can comfortably shoot groups at,some it is 30,others it is 60.I like to be around 40 yards.

All you do is shoot groups and move the rest in about a 1/32" at a time untill the groups start opening up.Then move back the other direction untill the groups start opening up again,then move the rest back to where you are getting the absolute tightest groups you are capable of.


You can do this for the vertical groups as well.

As a rule of thumb,if groups are spraying from left to right,the centershot is off.If the groups are spraying up and down,the vertical center is off.The groups should reach a circular pattern at some point.


Then recheck the walk back,chances are,the walk back tune will be even better than before and you will have found the best for the rest.

There is even a good chance that broadheads will be flying with your field pints as well,if not,then there is a good chance the spine of the arrow is off a bit.

Many hunters just go to broadhead tuning after walk back and this will also fine tune center BUT,the spine plays a HUGE role in broadhead tuning.


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## mmcaleer (Dec 20, 2005)

Tfox1 said:


> NOW,that you have walk back tuned,do some group tuning.
> 
> 
> Nuts and bolts diagram shows you how your groups can look when you have not group tuned.This will require very fine adjustments to the rest left and right.
> ...


So now that I think my rest is tuned properly it could still get better by group tuning in one fixed spot? 

Am I understanding that I just stand at say 40 yds and shoot a group. Move the rest about 1/32 to the right of where it is now, shoot another group and compare. If it opens up, move the rest 1/32 to the left of the original setting, shoot a group and compare. If the group gets tighter, move it another 1/32 and so on?

I will give it a try. Thanks for the information.


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## Tfox1 (Dec 11, 2008)

That is correct.Just make sure you are only counting good shots.If you blow a shot,throw it out.Plus,I like to do this a couple days just to insure I have accounted for ME.:mg:


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## JHeuvel (Nov 6, 2003)

The Eyeball method man, then walk up and broadhead tune. goodluck Oh man what a waste of my 1000th post LOL oh well


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## Snappy-S2 (Aug 27, 2008)

Did this Broadheads were shooting about 4 to 5 inches to the right. Now they hitting so damn close i have messed up fletchings. No complaints. Now my fieldtips were dead on. Now they shoot 4 to 5inches to the left. Whats causing this? I thought they were suppose to both be on. What do I need to try so both are in synch with each other.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

Snappy-S2 said:


> Did this Broadheads were shooting about 4 to 5 inches to the right. Now they hitting so damn close i have messed up fletchings. No complaints. Now my fieldtips were dead on. Now they shoot 4 to 5inches to the left. Whats causing this? I thought they were suppose to both be on. What do I need to try so both are in synch with each other.


http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=539460&referrerid=22477

Try this link.
Nice photo thead with step by step instructions
to get your broadheads and field points
hitting together.


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## lunghit (Aug 5, 2005)

nuts&bolts said:


> http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=539460&referrerid=22477
> 
> Try this link.
> Nice photo thead with step by step instructions
> ...


Good to see you back on here. Miss your detailed post.


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## yakstone (Jun 30, 2008)

I use the EZ Eye laser centering tool.


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## STUDENT-ARCHER (Jun 26, 2009)

Doc Holliday said:


> Yeah I usually hold the bow in front of me and make sure the string runs center of the limbs, grip, and straight down the nocked arrow.
> 
> I do walkback tuning after that to about 40-50 yds.
> 
> After that, you should be good to go. :thumbs_up


x 2, works for me also...


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## bo-w (Jan 9, 2010)

Marius said:


> Will somebody please inspire bolts and nuts to write a technical book on archery.


x2 :thumbs_up


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## fatboyshooter (Feb 9, 2010)

Hey that's one of the best looking boats I've ever seen! Is she yours?


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## Monsterbuck48 (Sep 26, 2010)

J-Daddy said:


> Dang somebody give Nuts & Bolts a cookie...That had to be the most detailed post on AT for a few years....Good job man.


nuts&bolts is a wizard when it comes to tuning bows


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## noahb2710 (Oct 19, 2013)

Tagged


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## hatchettjack (Jan 16, 2012)

i also use a laser!


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## Strodav (Apr 25, 2012)

srcarlso said:


> I use a laser setup which mounts to the sight holes...adjust it to get it centered on the string then swing the head to set the arrow. A check done by walk-back tuning confirmed this to be a great method (at least on my bow with me shooting).


This is what I do ^^^ with an EZE-EYE. Check with walk back tuning, but usually don't have to make any adjustments.


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## rmt1993 (Feb 10, 2013)

tagged


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## FlyingStabby (Aug 25, 2015)

nuts&bolts said:


> Walk back tuning to set the arrow rest position (centershot)
> 
> AND then,
> 
> ...


This is an old post, but still a valid thread, and a great post!

I have a huge question, though: I don't understand how this works. I understand what I read, but my problem is this: let's say you have centered your bow perfectly so that the arrow rest is exactly in-line. Now let's say your sight is also set horizontally perfect as well; i.e. you've completed everything, so you're at the final picture of total vertical alignment. Whether shooting 10, 20, or 50 yards all your arrows are in a vertical line.

Now, shift your sight to the right so that at 10 yards you're shooting 2" to the left, e.g. the third picture. According to that picture, if I back out to 20 yards I'll still be 2" to the left, and at 40 yards still 2" because my sight pin is off, but my arrow rest is still properly centered. But, in reality this isn't what will happen, is it? I am shooting to the left because my pin angle vs actual flight angle is off, so 2" to the left at 10 yards will mean 4" at 20 yards and 8" at 40 yards, again making a diagonal angle, even though the bow's center shot is still true. That's because at 40 yards I'm not actually looking to the right of where the arrow will go by 2", like I was at 10: following the same angle that created 2" offset at 10 yards now is an angle that creates 8" at 40 yards.

I hope I'm getting this wrong--what am I missing?


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## aread (Dec 25, 2009)

FlyingStabby said:


> This is an old post, but still a valid thread, and a great post!
> 
> I have a huge question, though: I don't understand how this works....


The only thing that walk back tuning does is align the sight with the path of the arrow. This also happens to be center shot (or close enough to it) with modern bows. Of course this is for left and right only, not up and down.

Then, if necessary, use other tuning such as yoke tuning to fine tune arrow flight.

Then use group tuning to get your smallest, best shaped groups. Unfortunately, group tuning relies on shooter skill more than other methods and isn't often productive for many shooters.


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## FlyingStabby (Aug 25, 2015)

aread said:


> The only thing that walk back tuning does is align the sight with the path of the arrow. This also happens to be center shot (or close enough to it) with modern bows. Of course this is for left and right only, not up and down.
> 
> Then, if necessary, use other tuning such as yoke tuning to fine tune arrow flight.
> 
> Then use group tuning to get your smallest, best shaped groups. Unfortunately, group tuning relies on shooter skill more than other methods and isn't often productive for many shooters.


Thanks--so if that is all walk back tuning is doing, why are people starting at 10, 20, 30, playing with strings, etc.? Why not just aim for a point at 50 yards and if you're hitting to the left, move your sight to the left? I just stumbled on this thread that's almost 15 years old: http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=1648 but he says the exact same thing:



> If you leave the centershot where it is at 50 and adjust your sight, you'll still hit the line at 50. It's too hard at 10 yards to really zero in your sight windage. What your seeing is correctable with the sight, leaving your centershot undisturbed. Try cranking the centershot off several turns at 50 and bring it back to the line with your sight. Now go up to 10 yards. If your not hitting the line, the laws of physics have changed.


The simple gist is this: If you're hitting a line at 10 yards, you will at 20, you will at 50, or 200 (assuming no wind). I don't believe that the third picture in the post I quoted is actually possible, because the _pin doesn't aim a set distance to the side, it follow angles, and as distance increases an angle opens up_.

As I read more, I see this: http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=1648&page=2

Confirms everything I thought about how math and angles work. Basically: take a perfectly centered bow, both in center shot and the sight. Scenario 1: move the center shot to the side and shoot at increasing distances. You see a diagonal line. Scenario 2: instead of moving the center, move the sight and repeat the increasing distances. Again, diagonal line.

Ultimately, although being dead-centered with the rest is helpful for flight, with the walk back method there is no way to tell if your off-center is because of the rest or the sight.


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## Lost Man (Jan 25, 2011)

Tagged


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## thegoodnews (May 7, 2015)

It's pretty simple if you understand what you read. If the rest is off center the shoot is going to go progressively more out as distance increases. Therefore you get the angle. BUT if the shots are a consistent distance off regardless of yardage the you know that the rest is centered and the sight needs to be centered.

If you still don't understand then let's focus on your issue directly. What is the result of you walk back tunning? We can advise you what to adjust from there.


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## FlyingStabby (Aug 25, 2015)

thegoodnews said:


> If the rest is off center the shoot is going to go progressively more out as distance increases. Therefore you get the angle. BUT if the shots are a consistent distance off regardless of yardage the you know that the rest is centered and the sight needs to be centered.


But what I'm saying is this seems to defy the basics of geometry.

Take your bow that is perfectly centered on rest and sight. Now shift the sight to the right to ruin your calibration, aim at your vertical string at 10 yards. Let's say the arrow is now hitting 2" to the left due only to the sight adjustment. Step back to 50 yards and again aim at that string. Do you really think the arrow is still going to hit only 2" to the left? It won't; go try it on a target and you'll see that the sight misalignment responsible for 2" off at 10 yards continues to exaggerate as you walk further back, so at 50 yards it's now off by 10".

If you still don't believe me, calibrate your bow perfectly at 5 yards. Now jam that sight housing as far over to one side as you can and aim for the same target. I bet you're off by a foot. Now take that same shot at 50 yards. I think it's plain to see you'll be off by a heck of a lot more than a foot and you'll never hit the target at all, thus confirming the notion that there's no way to tell with the walk back method if your horizontal inaccuracy is due to a misaligned rest or a misaligned sight housing.


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## aread (Dec 25, 2009)

FlyingStabby said:


> Thanks--so if that is all walk back tuning is doing, why are people starting at 10, 20, 30, playing with strings, etc.? Why not just aim for a point at 50 yards and if you're hitting to the left, move your sight to the left? I just stumbled on this thread that's almost 15 years old: http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=1648 but he says the exact same thing:....


If the line you see in through the sight is a couple of degrees off from the direction that the arrow is traveling, moving the sight will work, but only at one distance. Walk back tuning gets the sight lined up with the arrow flight at all distances, which is a good thing.


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## bowhuntermitch (May 17, 2005)

FlyingStabby said:


> But what I'm saying is this seems to defy the basics of geometry.
> 
> Take your bow that is perfectly centered on rest and sight. Now shift the sight to the right to ruin your calibration, aim at your vertical string at 10 yards. Let's say the arrow is now hitting 2" to the left due only to the sight adjustment. Step back to 50 yards and again aim at that string. Do you really think the arrow is still going to hit only 2" to the left? It won't; go try it on a target and you'll see that the sight misalignment responsible for 2" off at 10 yards continues to exaggerate as you walk further back, so at 50 yards it's now off by 10".
> 
> If you still don't believe me, calibrate your bow perfectly at 5 yards. Now jam that sight housing as far over to one side as you can and aim for the same target. I bet you're off by a foot. Now take that same shot at 50 yards. I think it's plain to see you'll be off by a heck of a lot more than a foot and you'll never hit the target at all, thus confirming the notion that there's no way to tell with the walk back method if your horizontal inaccuracy is due to a misaligned rest or a misaligned sight housing.


Exactly. The sights axis' have to be PERFECT before this method of tuning is started.


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## KDublya1 (Oct 6, 2014)

Very nice, keep it simple


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## NY12020 (Feb 21, 2013)

FlyingStabby said:


> Ultimately, although being dead-centered with the rest is helpful for flight, with the walk back method there is no way to tell if your off-center is because of the rest or the sight.


Its trial and error...you walk back tune to get a vertical line by adjusting the rest. THEN you adjust your sight till you are right on close up. Walk back shoot again and if you again get a diagonal line then the rest is still off. Adjust rest till you get a vertical line and after you do adjust sight again till perfect left/right then repeat process. Once you get a vertical line at all distances AND perfect left/right point of impact you are done.

Now if you move your sight after getting the rest centered...yes you will get a diagonal line again but a simple sight adjustment will fix this. If the sight adjustment does not fix then you know the rest is off. The key is to get a vertical array of arrows AND hit the string at all distances.


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## ontarget7 (Dec 30, 2009)

Walkback tuning should be done in conjunction with your sight being setup properly, 2nd and 3rd axis spot on. When tuning in this manner for center shot establish a plumb line on your target. You will then shoot at 5 ft and dial your sight in so the arrow splits the plumb line at 5 ft. Once you have established this, go back to 20 yards and be sure you only asses your clean shot. Now if your arrow is hitting off to the left, that is an indication you have a tail right or bareshaft left reaction. To correct this you would move your rest to the left in small increments, then start the whole process over, including sight adjustment at 5 yards. 

I am only referring to rest adjustments alone for those that don't have the means to press their bows for yoke tuning Hybrids or OD Binaries.

This method can work with very good results


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

Old Thread.... Of the Easy Eye laser, it's no more than gauge to get in the ball park for most all bows. Boss bought one for the shop. We quit using it at the shop almost immediately. I did anyway. I tried to sell the shop's when it was closing. Not one taker at half new price and a handful of batteries to go with it. Shop closed for over a year now and it's collecting dust. Boss; "One expensive tool and just worthless."


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## FlyingStabby (Aug 25, 2015)

aread said:


> If the line you see in through the sight is a couple of degrees off from the direction that the arrow is traveling, moving the sight will work, but only at one distance. Walk back tuning gets the sight lined up with the arrow flight at all distances, which is a good thing.


It would work at all distances; if you line up at 10 yards you will be lined up at 100 yards. An arrow will not travel straight for 10 yards and then veer for the next 90 unless some other force is working upon it. In other words, if you are actually lined up at 10 yards you will be at 50. If you are at 50, you are at 10. that's why it's best to start at 50 because problems in alignment are more pronounced.

I still don't believe it is possible for the third picture in the walk back method to exist in real life for the reasons explained. If either your center rest OR the sight are off either one will be responsible for a diagonal line as you increase distance; the idea that center rest is responsible for diagonal and sight off causes vertical just doesn't make sense.

The Easton tuning guide recommends, to tweak center rest at distance, shooting multiple groups and shifting it to either side. When the groups are shrunk your rest is good. At this point you would change the sight housing/pin.

Again, I see no way that the walk back method can tease out what is responsible for hitting to the side of vertical: is it center rest or is it sight?


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

FlyingStabby said:


> It would work at all distances; if you line up at 10 yards you will be lined up at 100 yards. An arrow will not travel straight for 10 yards and then veer for the next 90 unless some other force is working upon it. In other words, if you are actually lined up at 10 yards you will be at 50. If you are at 50, you are at 10. that's why it's best to start at 50 because problems in alignment are more pronounced.
> 
> I still don't believe it is possible for the third picture in the walk back method to exist in real life for the reasons explained. If either your center rest OR the sight are off either one will be responsible for a diagonal line as you increase distance; the idea that center rest is responsible for diagonal and sight off causes vertical just doesn't make sense.
> 
> ...


I came up with a MUCH SIMPLER version to understand. I call it MODIFIED French Tuning. FIRST THING to understand, the SIGHT has ZERO impact on group size. The SIGHT will not change your accuracy, as in the SIGHT windage will not make a LARGE GROUP size smaller, and the SIGHT windage will not make a TIGHT group size BIGGER. GROUP size remains UNCHANGED regardless of where you move the sight windage, ALL the WAY LEFT, or ALL THE WAY to the RIGHT, or at PERFECT SIGHT WINDAGE. THe ARROW REST sideways position has a LARGE effect on making group size LARGER, and the arrow rest SIDEWAYS position has a LARGE effect on making the arrow group size TIGHTER. DRAW LENGTH has a HUGE effect on making group size LARGER and DRAW LENGTH has a HUGE effect on making group size SMALLER. FIX draw length and FIX arrow rest sideways position, and you go a LONG ways from making the group size TIGHTER. THen, the TIGHT groups can be shifted all over the target, for Point of Impact, but the TIGHT GROUP remains the same size.

STEP 1. No lasers required. Use two arrows to set a STARTING position for the arrow rest...STARTING sideways position. GOTTA start somewhere.









Since your riser is NOT TWISTED crooked, then pinching a 2nd arrow to your riser, will tell you WHAT direction is DEAD straight ahead. So, we move the arrow rest so that the arrow on the bowstring and the arrow rest, the arrow is pointed DEAD STRAIGHT AHEAD...for starters. NOT pointed crooked left, not pointed crooked right. Arrow points straight ahead, FOR STARTERS. Raise the arrow rest so that the arrow is at the same height as your arrow rest holes. IF you have a rubber shelf covering the arrow rest holes, use masking tape and wrap all the way around your riser, so you now know the height of the arrow rest holes. CENTER of holes and CENTER or arrow tube, for a starting arrow rest height position.

STEP 2. START SUPER CLOSE, like 2 yards. Duct tape on the floor, so you are only 2 yards from the target. RAISE the target up to YOUR shoulder height. SINCE we have the arrow rest for a DEAD STRAIGHT arrow, we are now going to DIAL IN the sight windage. POINT BLANK range. CANT miss range. ONLY 6 feet. DENTAL Floss and a weight, to make a plumb bob. YOUR job is to SPLIT the dental floss with your field point. EASY geometry. NOTHING too complicated. PROVE to me you can HIT what you are looking at, just 2 YARDS away. NO excuses to miss at only 2 YARDS, right? Savvy?





JUST TWO YARDS. SET sight windage at TWO YARDS. MOVE your sight pins left or right, to SPLIT the dental floss and SUPER DUPER CLOSE range.


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

FlyingStabby said:


> It would work at all distances; if you line up at 10 yards you will be lined up at 100 yards. An arrow will not travel straight for 10 yards and then veer for the next 90 unless some other force is working upon it. In other words, if you are actually lined up at 10 yards you will be at 50. If you are at 50, you are at 10. that's why it's best to start at 50 because problems in alignment are more pronounced.
> 
> I still don't believe it is possible for the third picture in the walk back method to exist in real life for the reasons explained. If either your center rest OR the sight are off either one will be responsible for a diagonal line as you increase distance; the idea that center rest is responsible for diagonal and sight off causes vertical just doesn't make sense.
> 
> ...


The problem lies with one not knowing the procedure, any procedure or that of being bullheaded to not understand or accept a different tune procedure. The more you work with a tune procedure the more you understand it and then make it work for you and hopefully a bow that allows options, like yokes. Retired, I have nothing but time on my hands. I've tried Walk Back, Modified French, Bare shaft, broadhead, short and long French tuning. They all work. Most don't have a bow press to be playing with yokes. 5 straight years working for archery shop and not one person ever asked for their bow to be yoke tuned. All of my Hoyts and some of my Pearsons had floating yokes and my Martins didn't have yokes. My newer Pearsons don't have yokes. My bows are more accurate than I am.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

FlyingStabby said:


> It would work at all distances; if you line up at 10 yards you will be lined up at 100 yards. An arrow will not travel straight for 10 yards and then veer for the next 90 unless some other force is working upon it. In other words, if you are actually lined up at 10 yards you will be at 50. If you are at 50, you are at 10. that's why it's best to start at 50 because problems in alignment are more pronounced.
> 
> I still don't believe it is possible for the third picture in the walk back method to exist in real life for the reasons explained. If either your center rest OR the sight are off either one will be responsible for a diagonal line as you increase distance; the idea that center rest is responsible for diagonal and sight off causes vertical just doesn't make sense.
> 
> ...


STEP 3. GO long. Pick any distance that floats your boat. 20 yards is fine. 60 yards is better. 20 yards or more is just fine for STEP 2. Fire a group of arrows at LONG range, like 20 yards, or more. ONE LONGER distance is just fine. MOVE the arrow rest (see why you don't need a laser)...MOVE the arrow rest SIDEWAYS to get your fletched arrows ALL in the bullseye.



GREAT, you moved the arrow rest SIDEWAYS, using RESULTS based tuning to get your FLETCHED arrows ALL in the bullseye at some LONG RANGE distance. 20 yards is fine. NOW what? We goto STEP 4.


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## NY12020 (Feb 21, 2013)

To me the 3rd pic means that the sight is too far right AND the rest is too far in. After each iteration of walk back shooting you have to re-zero the sight at your close distance. can't make adjustments if your arrows are not aligned vertically AND your close range arrows are not hitting the string. If your close range arrows ARE hitting the string then you have taken incorrect sight position off the table and can focus on center shot.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

STEP 4. THIs will blow your mind. CHANGE your draw length 1/8th inch or 1/4-inch LONGER or shorter. BUT BUT BUT, ARcheryTalk says nobody can see any difference in such a small draw length change. Well, try it and see. SHORTEN the cables, and your ATA shrinks and your BRACE height GROWS longer, and your draw length AUTOMATICALLY grows longer. Or, go the other way. LENGTHEN the cables, and LENGTHEN your aTA, and your BRACE height shrinks a little, and your draw length also SHRINKS a little bit. Shoot some groups. So, I did my DL test and the test told me to GROW my draw length 1/4-inch LONGER, OUT OF SPEC, ON PURPOSE.

BEFORE at 20 yrds.



AFTER at 20 yards.



NO yoke tuning...not yet. NO bumping the arrow rest after the first group of fletched into the bullseye at 20 yards. GROUP is now TIGHTER. BUT BUT BUT, you MISSED!! THE group is NO LONGER in the BULLSEYE? WHAT now? REMEMBER when I said the SIGHT WINDAGE AND the SIGHT ELEVATION have ZERO EFFECT on group size? WHAT do you do, if the GROUP SIZE is missing HIGH? DUH. WE move the sight pins UP. IF you move SIGHT PINS UP, will the TIGHT GROUP no longer be a tight group? IF you move the sight pins to the RIGHT, will the TIGHT GROUP, stop being a TIGHT GROUP? 



NEW OUT of spec, 1/4-inch LONGER draw length. MOVED the sight pins or scope HIGHER. MOVED the sight pins or scope dot to the RIGHT. BAM. TIGHT group did not change. TRY modified FRENCH tuning. MANy have. Much easier geometry to understand.


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## FlyingStabby (Aug 25, 2015)

nuts&bolts said:


> I came up with a MUCH SIMPLER version to understand. I call it MODIFIED French Tuning. FIRST THING to understand, the SIGHT has ZERO impact on group size. The SIGHT will not change your accuracy, as in the SIGHT windage will not make a LARGE GROUP size smaller, and the SIGHT windage will not make a TIGHT group size BIGGER. GROUP size remains UNCHANGED regardless of where you move the sight windage, ALL the WAY LEFT, or ALL THE WAY to the RIGHT, or at PERFECT SIGHT WINDAGE. THe ARROW REST sideways position has a LARGE effect on making group size LARGER, and the arrow rest SIDEWAYS position has a LARGE effect on making the arrow group size TIGHTER. DRAW LENGTH has a HUGE effect on making group size LARGER and DRAW LENGTH has a HUGE effect on making group size SMALLER. FIX draw length and FIX arrow rest sideways position, and you go a LONG ways from making the group size TIGHTER. THen, the TIGHT groups can be shifted all over the target, for Point of Impact, but the TIGHT GROUP remains the same size.
> <snip>


This makes absolutely perfect sense.

Thanks for the rest of the post! The time you put in selflessly is appreciated by many, I know :tongue:

-----

One last idea I had--does this work for the initial rough centering of the rest before taking to range: draw the bow, and have somebody take a picture from the very top of my bow looking down so that the bottom part of the string is completely obstructed by the top--i.e. they are looking down directly on the strings in perfect parallel. Within this line I should have my arrow also in parallel with the other two. This ends up not just centering the bow when it is relaxed, but rather when it is drawn, which I assume is better. I have no idea if it's meaningful, though.


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## NY12020 (Feb 21, 2013)

It would seem that in order to do the modified French tuning (which is a great method) a person would have to be a really good shot to start with? Did the group get tighter the second time because of the draw length change or because the shooter just made 3 better shots that particular time? Would a third round of shots yield a different result? Who knows.... With walk back tuning you can still nail down center shot even with looser groups because on the whole the average of the groups are still likely going to form a diagonal line between the close and far ranges. Just saying it may not work for EVERYONE...


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

NY12020 said:


> It would seem that in order to do the modified French tuning (which is a great method) a person would have to be a really good shot to start with? Did the group get tighter the second time because of the draw length change or because the shooter just made 3 better shots that particular time? Would a third round of shots yield a different result? Who knows.... With walk back tuning you can still nail down center shot even with looser groups because on the whole the average of the groups are still likely going to form a diagonal line between the close and far ranges. Just saying it may not work for EVERYONE...


Draw length test uses bareshafts.

When the 20 yard group looks like THIS, with the bow in spec, at 29-inches of DRAW LENGTH...



The 29-inch DL TEST, with a bareshaft, aiming at the BULLSEYE, the BARESHAFT missed 8-INCHES to the LEFT.



NO yoke tuning. NO, this is NOT an arrow SPINE problem. THIS is a DRAW LENGTH Problem. So, HOW do we KNOW it's not an ARROW SPLINE/SPINE problem? HOW do we KNOW it's not just a LOUSY shot. DUH. FIRE the bareshaft 10 times in a row, and if the BARESHAFT misses 8-INCHES or MORE INCHES to the LEFT, then you have what is called a PATTERN, and the BARESHAFT always misses a LOT LEFT. So, REGARDLESS of skill level...you can ONLY TUNE to your SKILL LEVEL...DUH....the PATTERN is that if the draw length is TOO SHORT...ALL REASONABLE skill level shooters will have TEN bareshafts (repeat the test ten separate times with ONE bareshaft) the ONE bareshaft will ALWAYS MISS A LOT to the LEFT. IF you do the ONE bareshaft test 10 TIMES in a row, and the BARESHAFT ALWAYS MISSES a lot to the LEFT...GROW the draw length. SHORTEN the ATA, and GROW the draw length. YOU pick how much. I suggest 1/8th inch MORE brace height or 1/4 inch MORE brace height. TEST TEST TEST.


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## ontarget7 (Dec 30, 2009)

Sorry, I'm going to have to disagree on the whole draw length thing when your groups are good at 20 and your bareshaft misses to the left by 8". 

There are so many variables and having impact off 8" is not corrected by increasing draw length in small increments. You have other issues if it misses by that much.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

NY12020 said:


> It would seem that in order to do the modified French tuning (which is a great method) a person would have to be a really good shot to start with? Did the group get tighter the second time because of the draw length change or because the shooter just made 3 better shots that particular time? Would a third round of shots yield a different result? Who knows.... With walk back tuning you can still nail down center shot even with looser groups because on the whole the average of the groups are still likely going to form a diagonal line between the close and far ranges. Just saying it may not work for EVERYONE...


Sooo, I added twists to both cables, and grew the brace height just 1/16th inch LONGER. BUT BUT BUT, the bow is now OUT of spec. YES. BE brave. Let's see what happens, when we do the BAREsAHFT test again. NO moving the arrow rest. SAME exact arrow, so NO, this is NOT a spine issue. ZERO yoke tuning. SAME distance. SAME bow. SAME arrow. ONLY tweaked both cables shorter, to grow the brace height 1/16th inch. NO change to the sight. No change to the arrow rest. ONLY change was shorter ATA, and LONGER brace. Easy to understand geometry, no? Yes?



OMG! Look at that. PATTERN recognition. Maybe it was just a LUCKY SHOT? Fine. Do that one bareshaft test, 10 times in a row. PATTERN recognition. Are your BARESHAFT tests showing that the BARESHAFT point of impact is MUCH CLOSER to the bullseye? YES? IF so, we have a PATTERN, a TREND. THIS means, that GROWING the BRACE HEIGHT LONGER is a GOOD THING. STILL think it's just a lucky 10 shots with ONE bareshaft? FINE. Fire the ONE bareshaft TWENTY times. IS the bareshaft holes NOTICEABLY CLOSER to the BULLSEYE, but NOT quite THERE yet? FINE, you know what to do. SHRINK those cables a LITTLE BIT MORE.



SEE the PATTERN? YES? NO? Shrunk those cables a little bit MORE. GREW that brace height a little bit MORE OUT OF SPEC. WANNA guess what happens NEXT? GROW the brace height a little bit LONGER? TEST...TEST...TEST.



BAM. Must have been a lucky shot. 29-1/4 inches of draw length. BOW is WAY out of spec right? I mean, the brace height is 1/4-inch LONGER, 1/4-inch OUT OF SPEC. OMG? So, just a lucky shot? FINE, fire that bareshaft with that OUT of SPEC bow, TEN times, using the ONE bareshaft. BE BRAVE. IT won't hurt. I promise. Sooo, BIG DEAL. You fired ONE bareshaft and it HIT the yellow at 20 Yards. SO WHAT. I KNOW my draw length. How many times have you HEARd THAT? TEST...TEST...TESt. What comes NEXT? DUH. FIRE a group of FLETCHED arrows.

BEFORE with BOW in SPEC. BIG deal, in spec. SO WHAT!



Matching bow in spec draw length test, with a BARESHAFT, and the BARESHAFT misses WIDE LEFT. SEE red arrow. BARESHAFT missed all the way to the EDGE, the LEFT EDGE of the paper. YES, I was aiming the bareshaft at the bullseye. I have gotten this question...believe it or not. PIN was at the x-ring. BARESHAFT missed all the way LEFT. BOW is in spec.



BOW OUT of spec, this is the NEW group, fletched arrows at 20 yards, with the brace 1/4-inch TOO LONG. OUT of spec on purpose.



JUST a lucky shot, right? Three times in a row, right? BOw out of spec, brace height is 1/4-inch TOO LONG for a right handed shooter, and the fletched arrows miss HIGH (longer draw length) and to the RIGHT (longer draw length). THINK about the geometry and you will figure it out.

BARESHAFT also hits the bullesye now, with the brace 1/4-inch TOO LONG and out of spec. COincidence, right?



MOVE the sight windage and move the sight elevation, and the TIGHT GROUP size does NOT CHANGE.



Another lucky three shots in a row, right? OR maybe this is a PATTERN? You try.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

Sight windage...set it at 2 yards. Arrow rest sideways position. GO LONG, say 20 yards or more, and move the arrow rest left or right, to get the arrows in the middle. NOW, play with out of spec brace height, longer or shorter. WATCH groups shrink TIGHTER, when you figure how much OUT of SPEC to go, for brace height. Group gets tighter, and you have to adjust sight windage and elevation. Try your newly TIGHT GROUPS at all distances from 20 yds to 60 yrds. SIGHT WINDAGE has ZERO effect on group size. *IF the TIGHTER groups miss the bullseye SIDEWAYS at 60 yds...DO NOT touch the arrow rest. FIX your 3rd axis on your sight.
*


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## NY12020 (Feb 21, 2013)

nuts&bolts said:


> Draw length test uses bareshafts.
> 
> When the 20 yard group looks like THIS, with the bow in spec, at 29-inches of DRAW LENGTH...
> 
> ...


Sorry I missed the bareshaft testing somewhere along the line...the steps you had above were 1) eyeball center shot with arrows to get it close, 2) sight in till you hit plumb-bob string at 2 yards, 3) shoot at 20 yards and move rest till arrows hit the bull, 4)adjust draw length to tighten the group then sight in to move the now tight group to the middle. If we are talking bareshaft shooting yes I agree the difference between bare shafts and fletched shafts will be consistent for shooter of any level. Not trying to bust your nuts (no pun intended) just trying to understand the technique.


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## FlyingStabby (Aug 25, 2015)

nuts&bolts said:


> Sight windage...set it at 2 yards. Arrow rest sideways position. GO LONG, say 20 yards or more, and move the arrow rest left or right, to get the arrows in the middle. NOW, play with out of spec brace height, longer or shorter. WATCH groups shrink TIGHTER, when you figure how much OUT of SPEC to go, for brace height. Group gets tighter, and you have to adjust sight windage and elevation. Try your newly TIGHT GROUPS at all distances from 20 yds to 60 yrds. SIGHT WINDAGE has ZERO effect on group size. *IF the TIGHTER groups miss the bullseye SIDEWAYS at 60 yds...DO NOT touch the arrow rest. FIX your 3rd axis on your sight.
> *


So you're adding a twist to the string...how do these changes compare to trying to group tune via slight changing of poundage on the bow with 1/4 turns, and if so would you do both limbs at the same time or even put one out of spec re. the other by as much as a full turn...?


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## FlyingStabby (Aug 25, 2015)

NY12020 said:


> Sorry I missed the bareshaft testing somewhere along the line...the steps you had above were 1) eyeball center shot with arrows to get it close, 2) sight in till you hit plumb-bob string at 2 yards, 3) shoot at 20 yards and move rest till arrows hit the bull, 4)adjust draw length to tighten the group then sight in to move the now tight group to the middle. If we are talking bareshaft shooting yes I agree the difference between bare shafts and fletched shafts will be consistent for shooter of any level. Not trying to bust your nuts (no pun intended) just trying to understand the technique.


That sounds like what I read, too.

However, if we assume that the initial eyeballing of the rest is only "pretty good" and not perfect, I didn't see where the rest is shifted slightly left and right before changing the draw length (I may have missed this, though), or maybe the eyeball turns out it is actually sufficient?


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## NY12020 (Feb 21, 2013)

flyingstabby...the point I was trying to make with the walkback tuning is that EACH time you shoot at different distances to create that diagonal line that will tell you which way to move your rest...you need to START with your closest distance hitting the string to take the sight being off out of the picture.


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## FlyingStabby (Aug 25, 2015)

NY12020 said:


> flyingstabby...the point I was trying to make with the walkback tuning is that EACH time you shoot at different distances to create that diagonal line that will tell you which way to move your rest...you need to START with your closest distance hitting the string to take the sight being off out of the picture.


But if you are sighted in at 10 yards with your sight along the same vertical line as where the arrow is going, regardless of whether the rest is dead center or wildly off, ultimately at the end of the day your sight is in the same vertical line as the point you're hitting at 10 yards. How can moving further out then start to creep the arrow to either side? If, just before you take your 10 yard shot, somebody runs in, grabs the target, and moves it back to 50 yards, then you release, you'll still hit the same vertical line at 50 that you would have at 10.

---------

Okay, I'm genuinely not trying to be a jerk, but nuts & bolts, would you recommend trying a paper tune before your longer range tuning? I guess they are all trying to get at the same thing ultimately.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

FlyingStabby said:


> But if you are sighted in at 10 yards with your sight along the same vertical line as where the arrow is going, regardless of whether the rest is dead center or wildly off, ultimately at the end of the day your sight is in the same vertical line as the point you're hitting at 10 yards. How can moving further out then start to creep the arrow to either side? If, just before you take your 10 yard shot, somebody runs in, grabs the target, and moves it back to 50 yards, then you release, you'll still hit the same vertical line at 50 that you would have at 10.
> 
> ---------
> 
> Okay, I'm genuinely not trying to be a jerk, but nuts & bolts, would you recommend trying a paper tune before your longer range tuning? I guess they are all trying to get at the same thing ultimately.


All tuning methods are tools. I have suggested a method, step by step. If you want to insert paper tuning, that's not part of my process, but give it a whirl. My method has NOT used any paper tuning, my method has not even TOUCHED yoke tuning. TRY my steps IN ORDER, and AFTER you finish all the steps...1 through 4, then do YOKE tuning LAST, at say 60 yards.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

FlyingStabby said:


> So you're adding a twist to the string...how do these changes compare to trying to group tune via slight changing of poundage on the bow with 1/4 turns, and if so would you do both limbs at the same time or even put one out of spec re. the other by as much as a full turn...?


Sigh. ZERO twists to the string. WORK the CABLES shorter, to grow the brace height/draw length longer. WORK the CABLES LONGER, to shrink the brace height/draw length shorter. CABLES. ATA LONGER for less draw length. CABLES. ATA shorter for more draw length. CABLES...CABLES...CABLES.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

FlyingStabby said:


> That sounds like what I read, too.
> 
> However, if we assume that the initial eyeballing of the rest is only "pretty good" and not perfect, I didn't see where the rest is shifted slightly left and right before changing the draw length (I may have missed this, though), or maybe the eyeball turns out it is actually sufficient?


Arrow rest sideways position. GOAL is to set the arrow rest sideways position directly IN FRONT of the bowstring flight path. When you let go of the d-loop, the bowstring flys FORWARDS. So, your job is to move the arrow rest sideways, so that the arrow is POINTED in the SAME direction, as the bowstring flight path, from full draw back to brace height. IF you have the arrow rest TOO FAR to the LEFT, and the arrow is not pointed in the same direction as the bowstring flight path direction, your VANES work REALLY HARD and you get SUCKY groups....LARGER group size. SAME for the arrow rest too far to the RIGHT. SUCKY groups...LARGER group size. So, bottom line, the SIGHT windage has ZERO effect on GROUP size. FORGET about sight windage temporarily. THAT is an easy fix and is the LAST thing to worry about. TIGHT GROUPS is all that matters.

Arrow rest OUT of position? Draw length too long or short? WHAT happens. THIS is as easy as I can make it for you guys. THIS happens when draw length is NOT at the sweet spot, and THIS happens when the arrow rest is NOT dialed in. SUCKY groups.



When the arrow rest is a skosh sideways out of position, vanes provide steering correction to FORCE the arrow to fly where you want. So, if your arrow rest is KINDA in the ball park, you CAN hit the bullseye, but not at your TRUE accuracy potential. So, move the arrow rest to get your fletched arrows into the middle at LONG range, say 20 yards or 30 yards. IGNORE sight windage. WE will fix that later. We set sight windage with a plumb bob of dental floss at 2 yards. Then, go shoot groups at LONG range...20 or 30 yards and MOVE the arrow rest to get the arrows in the middle.



NOW, get your brace height OUT of SPEC, with your CABLES. GROW the ATA longer. SHRINK the ATA shorter. SHOOT lots of groups. FIND the out of spec amount for OUT OF SPEC brace height, and WATCH your GROUPS SHRINK.







IN my case, SHORTER ATA, LONGER brace height = LONGER draw length by 1/4-inch gets me THIS result. SAVVY?


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

TWeak sight elevation and windage.



Stabilizer tune...for STABILIZER system FOC...to SHRINK the group size for HIGH-LOW misses.


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## FlyingStabby (Aug 25, 2015)

Nuts, believe I did read all you wrote, but one question still  I completely embrace the notion that sight windage doesn't affect group size at all.

1) Eyeball the rest so that it's _pretty good but not perfect_ with the other arrow mounted to the bow to align it.
2) Shoot an arrow at 2 yards. It's off. Adjust pin. Shoot again, not so far off, adjust pin again. Eventually our pin is now allowing us to shoot the string, and the pin is calibrated to where the arrest rest, which is _pretty good but not perfect_ is shooting.
3)


> Then, go shoot groups at LONG range...20 or 30 yards and MOVE the arrow rest to get the arrows in the middle.


. Since the arrow rest was not quite perfect before, but it was lined up with the pin (which in turn then is not quite perfect), aren't you now telling the arrow rest to chase the pin, which is probably close but not perfect? Wouldn't it be better at this point to shift the arrow rest left or right small amounts until we shrink the group (probably still on target, but ultimately ignoring the fact we may be to left or right of the pin), THEN work on setting the pin back to the group before touching the brace height/DL? Therefore, instead of chasing the pin with the rest at 20-30 yards, we're first fine tuning the rest and once it is ideal, we chase it with the pin?


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## ontarget7 (Dec 30, 2009)

ontarget7 said:


> Walkback tuning should be done in conjunction with your sight being setup properly, 2nd and 3rd axis spot on. When tuning in this manner for center shot establish a plumb line on your target. You will then shoot at 5 ft and dial your sight in so the arrow splits the plumb line at 5 ft. Once you have established this, go back to 20 yards and be sure you only asses your clean shot. Now if your arrow is hitting off to the left, that is an indication you have a tail right or bareshaft left reaction. To correct this you would move your rest to the left in small increments, then start the whole process over, including sight adjustment at 5 yards.
> 
> I am only referring to rest adjustments alone for those that don't have the means to press their bows for yoke tuning Hybrids or OD Binaries.
> 
> This method can work with very good results





FlyingStabby said:


> Nuts, believe I did read all you wrote, but one question still  I completely embrace the notion that sight windage doesn't affect group size at all.
> 
> 1) Eyeball the rest so that it's _pretty good but not perfect_ with the other arrow mounted to the bow to align it.
> 2) Shoot an arrow at 2 yards. It's off. Adjust pin. Shoot again, not so far off, adjust pin again. Eventually our pin is now allowing us to shoot the string, and the pin is calibrated to where the arrest rest, which is _pretty good but not perfect_ is shooting.
> 3) . Since the arrow rest was not quite perfect before, but it was lined up with the pin (which in turn then is not quite perfect), aren't you now telling the arrow rest to chase the pin, which is probably close but not perfect? Wouldn't it be better at this point to shift the arrow rest left or right small amounts until we shrink the group (probably still on target, but ultimately ignoring the fact we may be to left or right of the pin), THEN work on setting the pin back to the group before touching the brace height/DL? Therefore, instead of chasing the pin with the rest at 20-30 yards, we're first fine tuning the rest and once it is ideal, we chase it with the pin?



You seem like a sharp guy and I will bring this up one more time, take it for what it's worth. It doesn't get much simpler and easier than what I posted above


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## FlyingStabby (Aug 25, 2015)

ontarget7 said:


> You seem like a sharp guy and I will bring this up one more time, take it for what it's worth. It doesn't get much simpler and easier than what I posted above


Thanks. I have learned I combine sharpness with ignorance and sometimes this dangerous mix sends me down horrendously silly paths.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

FlyingStabby said:


> Nuts, believe I did read all you wrote, but one question still  I completely embrace the notion that sight windage doesn't affect group size at all.
> 
> 1) Eyeball the rest so that it's _pretty good but not perfect_ with the other arrow mounted to the bow to align it.
> 2) Shoot an arrow at 2 yards. It's off. Adjust pin. Shoot again, not so far off, adjust pin again. Eventually our pin is now allowing us to shoot the string, and the pin is calibrated to where the arrest rest, which is _pretty good but not perfect_ is shooting.
> 3) . Since the arrow rest was not quite perfect before, but it was lined up with the pin (which in turn then is not quite perfect), aren't you now telling the arrow rest to chase the pin, which is probably close but not perfect? Wouldn't it be better at this point to shift the arrow rest left or right small amounts until we shrink the group (probably still on target, but ultimately ignoring the fact we may be to left or right of the pin), THEN work on setting the pin back to the group before touching the brace height/DL? Therefore, instead of chasing the pin with the rest at 20-30 yards, we're first fine tuning the rest and once it is ideal, we chase it with the pin?


Iterative process. Start with the arrow parallel to your sight horizontal arm. Or, just pinch an arrow to the riser, and do the TWO arrow trick to set the STARTING arrow rest position.



STARTING position for the arrow rest. GOTTA start somewhere. NOW, with the arrow rest set for DEAD straight ahead, set the STARTING position of the sight pins windage (horizontal setting). SPLIT the dental floss.



SPLIT the dental floss as POINT BLANK distance. This is a GOOD STARTING point for sight pin windage. NOW, forget windage. GO LONG and shoot groups. 60 yards or 20 yards. WHATEVER floats your boat. GET the arrows hitting the middle by MOVING the arrow rest. SEE why laser tuning is a waste of time? We have to move the arrow rest to get your arrows in the MIDDLE. Arrow rest horizontal position and draw length go HAND in HAND. IF you INSIST that you are a 32-inch draw length size, then you are going to move your arrow rest WAY RIGHT, since you are only 5 feet tall. SAVVY? This is why I teach dialing in the arrow rest SIDEWAYS position, then TUNE the draw length to get the TIGHTEST groups. GOTTA do BOTH.

So, in my case, the 29-inch draw length bow was IN spec. GROUP size not great at 20 yards. You moved the rest a little left, a little right, to get the group into the MIDDLE, the bullseye. NOW, tweak draw length, and really DIAL in the group size. MAKE the group as TIGHT as you can. ONCE you have the draw length DIALED IN as TIGHT as group as you can, sure...go back to tweaking the arrow rest a tiny bit left or right, to see if you can get the group size even TIGHTER. ONCE you have the draw length AND arrow rest sideways position dialed in for as TIGHT a group as possible....NOW, tweak your sight, LAST...sight elevation, sight WINDAGE and third axis. DONE.


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## ontarget7 (Dec 30, 2009)

ontarget7 said:


> You seem like a sharp guy and I will bring this up one more time, take it for what it's worth. It doesn't get much simpler and easier than what I posted above


What bow do you have and I can more than likely give you a very good starting point for centershot


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## ontarget7 (Dec 30, 2009)

FlyingStabby said:


> Thanks. I have learned I combine sharpness with ignorance and sometimes this dangerous mix sends me down horrendously silly paths.


Well that post didn't work ^^^^ LOL

What bow do you have and I will more than likely be able to give you a very good starting point for centershot


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## FlyingStabby (Aug 25, 2015)

Thanks, nuts/bolts.



ontarget7 said:


> Well that post didn't work ^^^^ LOL
> 
> What bow do you have and I will more than likely be able to give you a very good starting point for centershot


hehe.

I don't even know what it is. It's a PSE "Droptine". One of their entry level bows that they packaged up and since it's in a package they threw that name on it. Best guess is it is a PSE Stinger. Recent purchase from a big-box.


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## ontarget7 (Dec 30, 2009)

A good starting point would be right in between 3/4 and 13/16. Then start the process I mentioned above


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## NY12020 (Feb 21, 2013)

You are correct...the Droptine is a Stinger X.

The more I think about the original post the more I think I may have to suck it up and call BS on my earlier statement that you need to adjust the sight for each iteration of walk back...Moving the entire bow left or right (which is what moving the pin does) shouldn't do anything except move the diagonal line of impacts left or right...why would it change how steep the diagonal line is? Do I have it correct now N&B?


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## FlyingStabby (Aug 25, 2015)

ontarget7 said:


> A good starting point would be 13/16. Then start the process I mentioned above


Great example of my newbieness. 13/16" of what exactly...?

Heck, I had to google the difference between cables and strings, but in my defense others have asked as well. At least I know what brace height is ;0


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## ontarget7 (Dec 30, 2009)

FlyingStabby said:


> Great example of my newbieness. 13/16" of what exactly...?
> 
> Heck, I had to google the difference between cables and strings, but in my defense others have asked as well. At least I know what brace height is ;0


I edited my post ^^^

Measure off the side of the riser just above your arrow


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

NY12020 said:


> You are correct...the Droptine is a Stinger X.
> 
> The more I think about the original post the more I think I may have to suck it up and call BS on my earlier statement that you need to adjust the sight for each iteration of walk back...Moving the entire bow left or right (which is what moving the pin does) shouldn't do anything except move the diagonal line of impacts left or right...why would it change how steep the diagonal line is? Do I have it correct now N&B?


The arrow rest and the bow draw length setting combine to make your arrow groups BIGGER or TIGHTER. So, when you line up the arrow rest sideways position, to perfectly have the arrow block the bowstring flight path, you get tighter groups. If you KNOW your draw length and refuse to adjust draw length, and your draw length is PRETTY close to perfect for you...then, sure, you can move the arrow rest closer to the riser (more the arrow rest to the right) in TINY amounts, and you will see your groups get TIGHTER, if your draw length is only a TINY bit too long. WHY does moving the arrow rest to the RIGHT make groups tighter, if the draw length is TOO LONG by a small amount? THINK about the geometry. Draw length a TINY BIT too long, which way are you pulling the bowstring SIDEWAYS? WHY does a right handed shooter get a LEFT paper tear, the back end of the arrow, the NOCK is skidding SIDEWAYS LEFT, when the draw length is a TINY BIT too LONG?



Now this guy is an EXTREME case and his draw length is nearly 2-3 inches TOO LONG. But, can you see what THIS much too long of a draw length makes for a MASSIVE left paper tear?



NOW this guy, is only a TINY bit too long on draw length, so he gets a SMALL left paper tear. He is only pulling the bowstring SIDEWAYS left a small amount, so you get a SMALL left paper tear. So, since he pulls the bowstring SIDEWAYS LEFT only a small amount, then, you can FIX the BH and FIELD point groups, by moving the arrow rest to the RIGHT. WHY move the arrow rest to the RIGHT? CUZ, he is pulling the BACK end of the arrow SIDEWAYS LEFT, so the FRONT END of the fixed blade BHs want to fly SIDEWAYS RIGHT. So, this is why you can TIGHTEN up groups, by moving the arrow SIDEWAYS RIGHT, if you get a LEFT back end of the arrow PAPER tear.

NOTICE, I never said anything about SIGHT WINDAGE. We really don't CARE about SIGHT windage, until we get the TIGHTEST groups possible. WORK d-loop length. Work your ATA longer or shorter, to gROW or SHRINK brace height, which changes your draw length in TINY amounts. WHY mess with DRAW LENGTH? So, we can SWING your right elbow MORE in line with the arrow, when at full draw.

ELBOW LEFT at full draw, means, NOCK LEFT for bareshafts, MEANS NOCK LEFT paper tear. THIS is elbow LEFT at full draw.



THIS is elbow STRAIGHT at full draw.



What happens when your ELBOW is LEFT of the back end of the arrow, what happens if your ELBOW is RIGHT of the back end of the arrow? BIGGER groups.



What happens when your draw length and your arrow rest SIDEWAYS position are not getting along? LARGER groups.



What if you KNOW your draw length and absolutely REFUSE to mess with draw length? MESS with the arrow rest sideways position, and get the arrow groups as TIGHT as possible. MAYBE you can do THIS, if you move the arrow rest sideways position to get along BETTER with your draw length, which you REFUSE to mess with. When your draw length AND your arrow rest sideways position GET along, THIS happens.



TIGHTER groups is what happens, when your arrow rest SIDEWAYS position, and YOUR draw length, both get along...things are at the SWEET SPOT for you. When you get to this point, MOVE the sight...move sight elevation, move sight windage. It's really THAT simple.



This is all at 20 yards. NOW, goto 60 yards, and yoke tune with just half a twist in ONE yoke leg. NOW stabilizer tune and adjust stabilizer system FOC.



SIGHT windage is just a POINTING system. SIGHT windage has NO effect on group size. NONE. NADA. If you fine tune your draw length AND your arrow rest sideways position, so these two GET ALONG..group size will tell you that YOU got it correct.


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## #DP (Sep 26, 2015)

Thx Nuts & Bolts, very well explained. Can't wait to try this method out to make a good shooting set up even better.


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## FlyingStabby (Aug 25, 2015)

Well this was strange today.

First thing, when I got up I shot into paper before I could get to the range. Right tears.

I then did step 1 from the guide. My PSE bow has a grove on the riser, within which I could rest an arrow. I was then able to shift my rest so that the nocked arrow matched that arrow perfectly straight, which meant shifting it to the right a little, and I aligned the sight accordingly to hit a vertical line.. Shot the paper some more. If anything, the right tear was more pronounced. Although it goes against my intuition to address a right tear (vanes entering paper to right of point) to move the rest to the left, that's exactly what I did. Seemed to fix it up a bit, but I had to rush to work.

At lunch I got to the range and shooting 2 arrow groups only I robin hooded (I guess it counts; I destroyed one arrow and its nock by hitting it with another) for the first time at 20 yards. I then shot my best 50 yard group ever, around 6" total. Part of that was an adjustment in form, but still, it was a great final group for me. Dialed the sight for windage in no time. Now, the main way I differed here from what nuts/bolts said is that I didn't leave the arrow in line with the riser, only because I saw it was papering really badly on my bow.

Remember, this was with the rest seemingly way to the left of where it should be :embara: I then drew my bow at home with an arrow and looked down the top string to the bottom string with the arrow in between and, as expected, it is angled significantly to the left; knowing nothing else you'd think it would shoot terribly with an awful fishtail.

So, then I redid the paper test and here is what I just got using the same arrow on all shots (flip image so numbers read properly; ignore the fact it is on its side as an attachment here). Numbers represent yardage. 2 yards it's not perfect, but probably good enough if you're not obsessive. 4 yards it was worse, but only vertically. 6 yards basically same thing. 9 yards it was perfect. 12 looks a touch off again, so maybe some porpoising, but maybe not meaningfully off. In any case, for how my bow is currently set with the string/cables, leaning cam or idler wheel or whatever else, it actually seems to be shooting quite well with the rest skewed really far to the left. This actually is a bit better too because it lets me see my entire housing for the first time. The amount of slight early right paper tearing isn't enough for me to care about I don't think.

It almost seems like I've tuned it so badly that it's back in tune  But I think that paper test and the groupings I was getting today encourage me not to touch it.









Something else I noticed weird, when arrow is nocked and not drawn back the nocking point is slightly high of parallel. This is often considered good. But, when I draw the bow back all the way and compare a line between the two axles and the arrow (I had somebody take a picture and I played with it in MS paint, so I know I got it right), the nocking point actually seems a bit low of parallel. My upper tiller is 1-1.5 mm longer than lower, even though if anything the top limb is screwed down a half turn more than the lower.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

FlyingStabby said:


> Well this was strange today.
> 
> First thing, when I got up I shot into paper before I could get to the range. Right tears.
> 
> ...


Are you RIGHT or LEFT handed. I have been trying to teach for YEARS that arrow rest sideways position MUST combine with form and draw length. When you get the arrow rest sideways position COMBINED with form COMBINED with draw length setting on the bow...when you get these three parts WORKING together, then you will shoot tighter groups. BOTTOM line, if the arrow rest works ANGLED SIGNIFICANTLY LEFT...well, this is because of YOUR FORM and the draw length setting you have selected.

If you want the arrow rest to line up with the PSE GROOVE, with your arrow loaded, then FORM has to change, and bow draw length setting has to also change. YOu can also fine tune the arrow rest sideways position, by tweaking yoke legs.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

FlyingStabby said:


> Well this was strange today.
> 
> First thing, when I got up I shot into paper before I could get to the range. Right tears.
> 
> ...


If you are happy with your groups, don't change a thing. If you want to get the bow tuned for MORE efficiency, then, you have a lot of work to do...move the arrow rest to DEAD straight ahead (PSE GROOVE), then work on form, and tweak draw length probably in between DL module sizes, and last step, fine tune the yoke legs.


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## FlyingStabby (Aug 25, 2015)

I am right handed. I suspect my DL is not too bad because my elbow is on a line with the arrow. I do think if anything it is .5" too short, though. For some reason I've been shooting with a bent arm even though it appears that is incorrect (guy at shop told me to when I got the bow).

I really bet the yoke could use some work.

I think for now given my groups are okay I will try and keep as is at least until the end of bow season. I don't want to mess it up any further now


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## RandalH (Jan 28, 2014)

Usually set the rest 13/16" off the riser. That is a measure from riser face to center of arrow. This is only a starting point to start paper tuning. Have not used the walk back technique, but I am going to try it.. Makes sense.
Randy


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## cloquet (Jan 12, 2004)

me too


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## Oncorhynchus (May 19, 2016)

tagged


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## manicolae (Sep 25, 2019)

Do you have a link to a video for bow square?
I’m a little confused.
Thanks


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## lelwell2 (Sep 9, 2019)

Very nice explanation Nuts and Bolts. Thanks for sharing.


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## Unk Bond (Aug 1, 2004)

Hello All
For me shoot the center in a long with the knock height.
First shoot knock height in then center. By placing a cross on the target butt. 
Horizontal line shoot at for knock height. Vertical line shoot for rest center. [ Later


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

Posted a few times and one more time...Okay, due to partial vision loss in left eye I came up with a bolt to the berger hole, squared the end of the bolt, and had to thread the bolt near to the head of the bolt. Added a plastic washer and nut to take play in threads. The bolt screws through the riser so measure back to the riser. Okay, 13/16" from end bolt back riser and back off bolt 1/2 diameter of the arrow. Arrow on arrow rest, move arrow until it just touches the end of the bolt. Presto, factory center shot spec. Some that are heavy handed could use .001" feeler gauge or cellophane off a pack of cigarettes.


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## timrafferty17 (Apr 9, 2020)

Awesome, learning 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Seth234 (Sep 10, 2019)

And after reading all these pages of all these long drawn out posts is the reason I use the method I do. Putting an arrow on the rest and one on the riser is not the best method most times. I tell you why. If I was to do that. The rest would NOT move. Guys get in trouble when they use the two arrow process and then slide the rest one way or the other to get both arrows running parallel with each other. Take my bows 13/16-15/16” is center shot. So I start at 14/16” (the middle) and that rest DOES NOT MOVE. Now running two arrows and they were not parallel, I would not move rest , but string. By shimming, yokes, top hats, whatever bow has. The reason is if you move rest to get arrows parallel, most times center shot ends up being way outside and this causes a side pressure on grip at the draw and at full draw. If string is coming back from as close to center as possible, it reduces chances of torque. If you are pulling string from one side, there’s no way you cannot induce more torque. Now only way it would not, is when you get lucky and cam lean is opposite of static and cancels out. So by having center shot as close to center of bow as possible and moving string to that position is why it proves to be best


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