# Winner's Choice News - BowTech



## Punch_Master (Jul 24, 2002)

Another "just another Bowtech rumour?" or is this one for real?


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## ArchMedia (Mar 4, 2003)

This is the real deal - this is an official press release from Winner's Choice. (We are their marketing agency).


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## bowranger (Feb 9, 2003)

*price*

does that mean their going to lower their prices on their bows


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## dedcenter (Dec 8, 2002)

they should lower the price. The strings on the 2003 Bow Techs are no better than Zebra or Hoyt strings with strech and junk serving. the peep never quits spinning. certainly not the quality we came to expect from Bow Tech in the last few years.


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## Ausie-guy (Dec 7, 2002)

Funny you should say that Dedcenter cause the string on my Dually Pat has only needed 1 twist to get everything back in tune.
No peep rotation problems and no more stretch.
I had the string twisted after 200 shots and the bow now has roughly 2000 shots through it.
So I dont know where your getting your info from but mine is first hand.


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## pdq 5oh (Sep 7, 2002)

Same as Ausie's experience for me. Whoever made the strings on my 03 Pat Dually, they are doing fine. 

bowranger, does Mathews, or anyone else, discount their bows because of the strings?

dedcenter, do your BowTechs have string problems? If so, you may want to contact WC. I'm sure they'll be happy to help.


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## Matt / PA (Feb 21, 2003)

Yeah what?........keep spinning? I have owned 3 BowTech bows with WC on them and now a 2003 Patriot Dually with the "O2" strings and I have had to do a minor synch on the cams after a few dozen shots and nothing since (maybe 500 shots?). Exactly what I had to do with my 2001 Pro38 Dual Cam. No creep, no spinning, no junk servings.......I really enjoy WC products and have so far had the same performance out of the "o2" stuff. No complaints here. Maybe Hoyt and Mathews should lower THEIR prices for not having similar quality strings?


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## LX_Shooter (Feb 3, 2003)

Guys please dont jump on me or take this the wrong way.....But I think why these guys are saying that about price is because some of you made the point awhile back thats why B/T prices were that price,because of the high quality strings..... Now I am quessing this people think the price should go down.....WHY???? I have no ideal.........Hoyt and Mathews lower their prices because they dont have W/C....Not likely.... I personally have had good luck out of Zebra strings....Strecth yes..Little twist and I am back to good..


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## Grant-KS (Jan 13, 2003)

My friend's Pat. Dually has been perfectly in time since he got it settled in, but the only problem he said he's had with them, is the peep rotating a bit. And he is a Bowtech dealer! LOL


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## Matt / PA (Feb 21, 2003)

LX,
Not jumping on you.......I remember the WC/BowTech selling point and I don't recall anyone saying BowTech should be a "such and such price" *BECAUSE* they had Winner's Choice, but rather the point I always tried to make was this .......

If from the start you considered BowTech to be of at least equal quality in all other respects to other manufacturers bows then the ADDITION of Winner's Choice strings as standard equipment on BowTech bows was a very solid reason to seriously consider them over another manufaturer when looking for a new bow. A check mark in the "Plus column" so to speak when you are looking at a possible new purchase.

I STILL think the "o2" strings should be looked at in exactly the same way, A BONUS to already getting a well made bow.......these new strings might not be Winner's Choice, but from my experience with them so far I can't see a difference in performance. In my book that STILL puts them well ahead of what other manufacturers are putting on their top end offerings.


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## LX_Shooter (Feb 3, 2003)

Matt ....I guess you made your point better than I did.... Are atleast more understanding....I see what you mean about in the beginng........Quality with a plus

But I guess you dont consider Zebra to be a high quality??? Maybe not W/C quality but still a good string....Least it has been for me


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## razors edge (Nov 19, 2002)

*bowtech*

if you equate bowtech with iraq, it won't be long now!


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## Ausie-guy (Dec 7, 2002)

Razorsedge.
If you want to look at it that way then every other bow company that does not use WC must be in the same boat.

WC strings are good but they are not the be all and end all of strings.
I know some guys who make their own strings and they are just as good if not better than WC.

Besides that anyone who buys a bow just because of the string that is on it IMO is an idiot.


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## archerynut02 (Jul 28, 2002)

the strings and cables on my pat douly are terible very poor serving over 4000 shots and every thing is still moving......and the serving is starting to un ravel


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## pdq 5oh (Sep 7, 2002)

razorsedge, with a comment like that, I can see we needn't ever take anything you say seriously.

archerynut02, have you had the same experience with previous bow's strings? As you may or may not know, the strings on your Pat could be WC.

decenter, I know you're lurking. I'm curious to know if your observations are with your personal equipment, or just hear-say. By the two posts you have, I gather you seem to love WC.


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## bowranger (Feb 9, 2003)

*pdq5oh*

well the reason why i say they should lower their prices is because their strart with the best strings that money could buy and now their putting a lesser string on them so natural that means that their paying less for their string so we should pay less for their bows.thats just commen cents pdq 5oh


the bowranger has spoken!!!!!!!


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## pdq 5oh (Sep 7, 2002)

bowranger, common sense would dictate that all companies should lower prices, based on your logic. Or maybe BowTech should have charged proportionately more to begin with. Are you sure the O2 strings are of lesser quality? Do you have first hand knowledge of string pricing? Did WC tell you their strings are the best?


the pdq has asked!!!!!!!


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## Ausie-guy (Dec 7, 2002)

Greg.
Are you saying that no other string maker can make top quality strings?

Yes WC strings are good but like I have said before they are not the be all and end all of strings.


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## Bullish9 (Aug 27, 2002)

BigGP

I also am LMAO

Best is like beauty, its all in the eye of the beholder. And a big wallet doesn't hurt. There are pros shooting all diff. brands of string, just because WC states a list of pros who use it, doesn't make it the best. 

Bowtech says they have tested their O2 string right next to WC and it did just as well, is that true. Don't know, time will tell.


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## pdq 5oh (Sep 7, 2002)

bigGP, gotta love your dedication. How can you say the O2 strings are not of the same quality? Have you tested them yourself? Or are you listening to what WC tells you. I have no reason to, nor have I said, WC strings are not of high quality, they are. The O2 strings on my Pat Dually are of high quality, also. Who made them? I don't know, and don't care. BowTech supplied me with a bow I like and shoot very well, regardless of the manufacturer of the strings. I expect when the time comes I'll have custom strings made. $100. seems high for WC stuff. I think when you account for the cost of material, machining, assembly, warranty, and shipping, spending roughly 15% (of the total cost of the bow) for some strands of whatever, twisted up in some secret way, seems excessive. 

I find this to be an arrogant, pompous statement:
"our first concern is for our customers, and we feel compelled to tell them that the strings they will receive on their new BowTech will not be Winner’s Choice quality strings.”
Does WC feel they are the only company or otherwise capable of building "quality" strings? When all is said and done, WC will have a soar foot from this mess.


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## pdq 5oh (Sep 7, 2002)

Greg, did I touch a nerve? I merely meant to say WC has no right to imply, without question, that the O2 strings are of lesser quality. You of all people should know BowTech don't " just slap things together". Don't you shoot high scores with your P40s? That's funny, " people like you phil who never open thier eyes then wonder why it is dark." When the lights come on for you, get back to me with something of interest. "soar foot?" Ever heard of the saying "shot themselves in the foot"? Where will WC be, with the 85% in lost revenues?


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## pdq 5oh (Sep 7, 2002)

bigGP, nevermind. This is doing no one any good.


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## Predator (Jan 18, 2003)

This just kills me. It's amazing how brainwashed some folks can become from good marketing. First it was Matthews who still has millions believing they are the ONLY company in the world that can make a decent bow (clearly a laughable proposition) and now it's WC who has convinced many a small minded folk that they are the ONLY company in the world capable of producing a good bowstring.

Now, don't get me wrong, I love WC strings but I also know guys that have been making their own pre-stretched strings for years and years and they'd stack them up against WC any day. Making a high quality pre-stretched string is not rocket science folks! Despite this fact we've got folks on here spewing conjecture regarding the quality of WC vs. o2 when many of them don't even have experience with o2 strings and regardless, there's not been any documented independent testing to compare the quality of the 2 strings head to head. One guy's apparent bad experience can't be extrapolated to the entire population of strings.

As I understand it (& I could be wrong), Bowtech had dual supply relationships for a while. Therefore, as suggested above, you weren't really sure which manufacturer your "o2" string was coming from. WC was one of the suppliers. WC felt uncomfortable with that situation because they didn't want to run the risk of someone having trouble with the "other guy's" string and attributing it to WC. I can understand that and I suspect Bowtech's move to include the "other guy" was to phase WC out in order to reduce their costs (WC, even in a direct mass supply relationship probably isn't cheap - heck, they've got to cover the costs of all of their advertising). Given these facts, I wouldn't blame WC for pulling out (although I suspect they may have been on their way out anyway - it's like hearing you're going to get fired by the boss in the afternoon so you run down a quit in the morning so you can say it was your decision). Anyway, I can also understand Bowtech's decision. They obviously performed testing on these other pre-stretched strings and considered them comparable and recognized they could save money by not having to pay for the WC name (and all the overhead/advertising that comes with it).

Personally, I had an '02 Pat with WC and I've got an '03 Pat with o2 (?) and I can tell no difference. I've had no stretch or spinning problems whatsoever and I'm sure I've put somewhere between 500 and 1,000 arrows through my '03 already.


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## Bigtimearcher (Jan 21, 2003)

> and now it's WC who has convinced many a small minded folk that they are the ONLY company in the world capable of producing a good bowstring



I have yet to see Mathews Like ad's anywhere with Winner's Choice... I learned about them through word of mouth and I am darn glad that I have done business with them. Mike is a great guy and you will get a quick email response out of him. The strings are top notch. 

There is no comparison between Zebra/Tiger and Winners Choice.... if anything, I would say that The zebra strings are the ones that are doing the "brainwashing"....I HAVE seen MANY adds about how Zebra is the best thing since sliced bread, but in all reality is not. The only thing going for them is a lower price, but you get what you pay for


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## LX_Shooter (Feb 3, 2003)

I think why they wanted their customers to know about this is with all the confussion about the strings is that they didnt want everyone to think their B/T had W/C strings....In case something did go wrong they would be the first to be blamed....How dont see how that is being low......Is'nt here on this board when W/C found out about the o2 strings??????...Not telling them first about that was kinda...not right.....Jason.. You dont slam products at your home at PSE so dont do it here


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## Bigtimearcher (Jan 21, 2003)

thunderstruck..... I was trying to respond to predator in least bashing way I could.... I plainly stated Zebra Twist is a good string for the price but you get what you pay for.

I was more or less shocked that he thinks W/C brainwashes people to think they are the only good string maker..... I don't think I have ever seen an ad for W/C....like I said, I learned through word of mouth like MANY MANY others have.

Don't take my up front comments as bashing, I have stepped out of PSE territory, and I want to be sure to have strong arguments since everyone is so anal about things here.


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## jimb (Feb 17, 2003)

I find it funny that no one is asking why winners choice will no longer sell strings to BowTech.


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## BigBirdVA (Nov 5, 2002)

jimb said:


> *I find it funny that no one is asking why winners choice will no longer sell strings to BowTech. *


The article says why - "Citing concerns about representations made regarding their strings."
Uh....... somebody is saying the wrong thing. Gee.......... now who could that be?


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## LX_Shooter (Feb 3, 2003)

BigTime I see now what you mean about the W/C statement....Sorry dude.....But you now why you cant be so "anal " at the PSE board........Because they will delate it


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## Bigtimearcher (Jan 21, 2003)

Thunderstruck..... that is soooooo true! I hate that they just up and become a bunch of fascist moderators.

I'm guessing Jon Sheply just started reading some of the stuff and had a hissy fit (seems like that kind of person)....then complained to the normally good moderators.


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## jimb (Feb 17, 2003)

They are saying that Bowtech is not telling people that their strings are no longer on their bows, they did not say why they stopped selling strings to bowtech.


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## Predator (Jan 18, 2003)

Jason, where on earth in my post do I reference Zebra twist strings? If you are going to argue a point with me at least pick one that I actually made. I agree with you that Zebra Twist is crap. There are other strings out there that are comparable though, they just aren't marketed so nobody knows about them. Point is, just because o2 isn't WC doesn't mean o2 isn't just as good and nobody here is qualified to objectively differentiate between the two at this point.

You've never seen a WC add? You don't get out much sir. It's hard for me to find a bowhunting mag without an add - although many are not larger 4-color adds. That said, they certainly don't advertise like Matthews by intentionally misleading folks (Zebra-Twist is following the Matthews lead with their advertising). That isn't my point and if I accidentally implied that I apologize. I think what's happened is that so many folks have been conditioned to be brainwashed by Matthews that it doesn't take much anymore. Then when you've got one primary pre-stretched string manufacturer out there with some marketing power behind them and a lot of "word of mouth", lots of folks come to the conclusion that there simply is no other decent string maker in the world and that nobody could ever, EVER produce a string as good as WC. This is faulty logic to say the least and, perhaps at worst, just plain stupidity.

Again, the point is that just because Bowtech isn't using WC doesn't mean they aren't necessarily using strings of equivalent quality (and even if they weren't, neither are most of the other bow companies out there - certainly not Matthews or Hoyt). There is not yet any objective data or testing to compare the two (and until there is I wish people would just shut up about it). For now, my o2 string is working just fine. If it's demonstrated over the next year that o2 doesn't measure up to WC then you can bet that my replacement string/cables will be WC (or something else that is proven to be just as good - if such a thing exists at that time). I'll say it again (if my last statement didn't make it clear enough) - I think WC strings are awesome but that doesn't mean I don't believe someone else can make an equivalent string.


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## pdq 5oh (Sep 7, 2002)

Then why doesn't everyone just wait and see how the O2 strings work out BEFORE condemming them? Show me they AREN'T as good.


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## LX_Shooter (Feb 3, 2003)

I dnot think anybody said they wasnt has good.. (Did they?)...W/C it seems to me that they just letting everyone know its not their string......Why?...Beats me.....I dont even shoot W/C


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## Predator (Jan 18, 2003)

BigGP, show me where BT comes out and actually says the o2 is as good as or better than WC? I'm not sure I've ever seen them use the WC name in marketing the o2. In any case, it wouldn't surprise me if they did - heck, Matthews will clearly tell you the Zebra-Twist is better than WC - they say it's the best string in the world, basing the statement on 3D tour wins - you know, the standard Matthews marketing ploy.

The onus is not on Bowtech to prove, by independent testing, that the o2 is equivalent to WC. The onus is on the consumers who feel the need to trash o2 and Bowtech just because Bowtech isn't using WC. Point being, if you can't prove or demonstrate (i.e. via a preponderance of bad experiences by comsumers) that o2 strings suck then shut up and shoot.

Bowtech's move just makes smart business sense. Everyone pays a premium for the WC name so if Bowtech found a way to get strings of equivalent (or close - knowing that either one of them is better than the strings used by Matthews or Hoyt so there's still a quality advantage with the Bowtech product) quality for a lower price then they save on material costs and increase profit (thereby strengthening the future of the company and providing more funds for development of new and improved technology). It's just smart business. Now, if the o2 strings are proven to be inferior I would like Bowtech to at least offer WC strings as an upgrade option (one which I would gladly pay for). In fact, I think all bow companies should consider doing so if they can't develop equivalent quality strings. Only time, experience and, perhaps testing, will tell whether or not o2 matches up.


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## stringer (Dec 12, 2002)

I would like to chime in here and try to clear up a couple of items that have came up in these disscussions. First, we knew that Bow Tech would be using strings from other manufacturers in 2003. It was also our understanding that there would be an obvious visible difference between our strings and the others. When we got to the ATA show we saw that the other strings were cosmetically the same as ours, including the unserved buss cable split, and the serving lace that we use in our center serving areas. These are things that many people use to identify our strings. We also saw some differences that we felt would adversly effect our company if people were to mistake these for Winner's Choice. In the time since that show, we have had literally hundreds of calls about the strings on the 2003 Bow Tech bows which people were mistaking for Winner's Choice. This is what prompted the press release you see at the top of this thread. We only want the customer to know that the strings on the new Bow Techs are not Winner's Choice. With that said, We have also been in contact with Bow Tech, and they know that if they were to activley let people know which strings the customer has, then we would gladly again sell our products to them. We have no animocity toward Bow Tech, and feel that they have been, and continue to produce an excellent product. Our decision reguarding this situation was, we felt, the only way to be certain of maintaining our reputation in the industry. We wish Bow Tech all the best, and we are certain they they will be a major force in the industry for years to come reguardless of the strings they use. Other string builders also build a quality product. It is important to realize however that the construction process are in no way the same. Also for the record, our pre-streching method is done before the string is assembled, and uses a specfic combination of processes to inhibit movement in the finished string. This part of our trade secret that I cannot discuss in detail, but I can tell you that it is much more involved that just adding pressure. This is not to say that other techniques are totally ineffective in controling creep, just that we feel our method is the most effective in stopping creep, peep rotation, and serving seperation over the life of the product. We feel so strongly about this that we actually guarrantee our product against these problems. Also, I would like to say that I am very glad to hear that people are seeing our ads, and are thinking that we have a huge advertising budget. This is very encouraging, as we actually spend very little in advertising as compared to many of the other manufactures of products in our price point. These issues seems to be a subject of continued debate, and it is my hope to help put it to rest. 

Mike Slinkard,
V.P. Winner's Choice


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## jrb CO (Dec 3, 2002)

Stringer,

Are any Winners Choice strings on any '03 Bowtechs?

Thanks.


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## Predator (Jan 18, 2003)

Mike,

Thanks for clearing things up. I think some folks were jumping to conclusions that WC hated Bowtech and that there was all kinds of bad blood between the two companies. Good to see your professional approach and I believe your decision is completely understandable given the circumstances. WC makes an awesome product and I wish you the best. While I've seen some nice 4 color WC adds, most are fairly small but I always seem to notice them....maybe it's just because I'm so aware of your product. I'm sure I'll be buying more of your strings in the future but I think it's important to be fair to WC and Bowtech and I don't think either company should be getting "trashed" because of this situation - Bowtech was so I came to their defense as I think it was unwarranted - at least based on the information we have available here.


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## montanaarchery (Mar 11, 2003)

Let me tell you some facts as a retailer. Bow Tech did raise there bow prices when they put on winners choice for that very reason. They are now useing a string that is less than half the price and still charging the same price and did not have the morals to tell me that they where not using the choice strings. I found out for myself. I not only as a retailer put also as a consumer am a little pissed at them. It is pur fraud. So you just keep on thinking that when the choice strings were first put on that that was why they incresed the price and now that they have a cheep system on it that they are still going to cost the same price.


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## walks with a gi (Oct 1, 2002)

I would guess that my '03 Pat Dually does not have the WC set up on it because there was no peep site thread in the center of the string like what was on my '02 Pat. My '03 Dually has been performing very well with no serving separation or stretching of any kind. Like my '02 it has been flawless in operation and appearance and I couldn't be more satisfied.


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## JDES900X (May 22, 2002)

bigGP,
That just about sums up this whole thread. I think Mike Slinkard would agree that that is exactly there problem selling WC to BT if BT does not differentiate. Stretching a string that is already made is not the same as stretching each strand equally before it is made. Post-stretching a bowstring might sound good on paper but it doesn't guarantee end servings staying tight, or center servings that don't move. Usually, if a peep is rotating from day to day, it's a pretty good indication that the string is moving under the servings. Frustrating for WC and judging by the amount of complaints WC has been getting from BT customers since the switch, frustrating for new bow buyers who think they are getting WC.


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## MCB_MI (Nov 19, 2002)

Well bigGP, 
You have something personally with BT every time something comes around your there to nock something they are doing. I haven't delt with the O2 strings yet, but I have had your wccb on 5 different bows and all but one had peep rotation one of these is a 50lb bow the cable and string would just keep on streching, called wccb they were nice and sent out a ssecond string set and can you beleave it happen again (never stopped)!!! Oh and by the way the bow that didn't get the string changed is the one that the red-dot scope is on so it didn,t mater if it rotated. Yes I haven't been inpressed with wccb. Yes they are nice to deal with and talk to, Then again most of the company's are nice to talk to and deal with.

BowTech as far as I know never hide the fact that they were using a O2 string. I seen that before we even received a catalog.

I know you are freinds with wccb and no one can say that there deal with bowtech didn't help them grow. But again if a company decides to go with a different supplier and they feel the product they are recieving is of the same quality then they have every right to do this. Look at you car changes made there all the time.


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## pdq 5oh (Sep 7, 2002)

stringer, I'm curious. First thing I'd like to say is I understand your desire to maintain WC's position as a well thought of company, with regard to a quality product. You mention there were cosmetic similarities between the O2 strings and WC. You also mention differences. Could you be specific? Was it the onslaught of calls, or BowTech's refusal to distinguish which bows had which strings, that prompted the press release? What was the nature of the referenced calls? Lastly, I've seen this press release on many forums. Is this an internet campaign, or are you notifying BowTech dealers as well? The reason I ask this is the dealer I buy from was unaware of this. Thanks for your time.

montanaarchery, did you ever stop to think? At the time WC strings were added, so were sand trap limb pockets. There would also have been costs for R&D for new model bows. BowTech's prices are in line with companies that don't offer WC strings. Where do you get your information re: BowTech's cost for strings in 03?

JDES900X, where is it shown the nature of the calls to WC was complaints from BowTech customers? Stringer claims to have received hundreds of calls, not complaints. 

What does everyone else with a bow, that doesn't have WC strings on, do? By the posts here I'd say they must suffer horribly. Do all the Mathews, Hoyt, Martin, you name it owners spend all their time crying about their strings? I suspect they maintain their bows and shoot.


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## stringer (Dec 12, 2002)

First to respond to JRB CO, I do belive that Bow Tech had some inventory from 2002 left. It may be possible that a few of the Bow Tech modles could have some combination of either string or cable that is W/C from this stock. By in large, however the string and cable lenghts as well as the serving specs have changed from last year, so the applications of this stock on most of the 03 bows would be limited unless the lengths were altered by major twisting, which would negitivly effect the performance of our product. I suspect the more likely senario would be for them to use this stock for replacement strings for the 02 modles as needed, but I have no first hand knowledge of this for sure.
PDQ- some of the differences we saw on the bows we looked at at the ATA show were loose serving around the cams and loops as well as serving that did not fit into the cam grooves properly. I will say that Bow Tech told us that the strings on the show bows were going to get better, but we did not feel that it was worth the risk to our reputation to possibly have our product mistaken for what we were seeing. The Main reason for the press release was the calls from customers who were having problems ( strech and serving seperation mainly)with 03 Bow Tech strings, and thought they were ours. Even more distubing to us were the comments from some of our dealers who were concerned that our company was so busy that we had let our quality slip. This of course is not the case ( and will never be the case), as we were never running even close to the production capacity of our plant even when we were building all of Bow Techs top end strings. The press release will be in many of the major archery and trade publications in the coming months. Also, direct mailings to inform the dealers of the situation are going out at this time. 

Mike Slinkard,
V.P. Winner's Choice


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## stringer (Dec 12, 2002)

Also, Not that it is anyones business on this forum, but the Bow Tech account was 20.75% of our busness last year.


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## montanaarchery (Mar 11, 2003)

PDQ, I have delt with the Bt company since its first year in the business and let me tel you a little story. When the introduct WC on the bow to the dealers the there wasn't just a $40 price change it was a $85 price change so you tell me that OEM price for stings are around 45 to 50 a set then you can add you price of the sand traps. Now with Joey V 's string on the bow and I can qarantee that they are OEMing them for less than what it was from WC. So as usual they are still charging the same for the bows and as mensioned some of the new high end doesn't even have sand traps and are the same price. So then they didn't even tell there dealers until the deals inquired and yes they are still shipping out some WC but for the most part it is left overs.


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## montanaarchery (Mar 11, 2003)

bigGP
Then the question is are they one two or three color. Each is a different price. Ours are 85 a set for two color installed.


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## BTpatriot (Jan 18, 2003)

My brother in law sells Bowtech in his shop and his sales rep had told him that Bowtech is making their own strings for their bows now.


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## montanaarchery (Mar 11, 2003)

bigGP
I only believe in making a living, not a fast buck. thanks


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## HNTNBO (Feb 24, 2003)

I find all this kind of amusing. All manufactures charge what the market allows. We pay it and some complain and others smile. When we need that same product again we pay the price again. If a companys sells go down enough the price for their product goes down. See simple economics. 

Now to strings, I am a tech for one of the companies that makes some of the string material that we use on our bows. As for the working characteristics of strings or filaments, which ever you prefer, two things out side of materials and additives that are used to produce the filaments. The materials and additives as well a finish special finish oils is done by a fibers facility and I believe not WC. The only other two things that can affect stretch and elongation is heat and tension. This is done during maufactuing by different heated rolls and differing roll speeds. 

Now as for WC special string making process I can't comment on the exact amount of heat or tension they use but I'll go out on a limb and say that is what they use to manufacture them .

There is however a point to which a filament is stable and unless WC has come up with a polymer additive or manufaturing process than the string material they use will breakdown and degrade over a period of time, the same as all other string material. Also if you stretch a fillament to it's max elongation then you are decreasing its longevity while stopping its ability to creep. This will be until the filaments start to, for a lack of a better term, fail.

Now I'm not asking you to take what I have said to heart or as the gospel. I'm sure WC makes a great OEM product and for those wondering OEM means original equipment manufacturer. I think the string thing is just anecdotal to the fact that best shooters in the world were the best shooters before WC or ZebraTwist. On a side note I can tell you how to achieve the same results as a zebratwist string and probably the WC string also. This, all in the comforts of your own equipment room.

Naw I take it back. LOL I'll keep the secret for myself.

Yall have a good one and remember can't we all just get along! well with exception for the French. LMAO.


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## 2XLARCHER (Feb 20, 2003)

*03 strings*

Jeese this has gotten nasty! 
Just want to add another post inthe two thumbs up column. 
I have an 03 Wheely. After initial shoot in, I have had absolutely no problems. The peep is right there every time, cam timing unchanged. What ever the brand, It works absolutely satifactory for me! 

Lets go shoot soom arrows and stop the knife hurling. Different opinions are our freedom. But lets not let the differences blind us from the fellowship that brings us all to Archey talk in the first place.


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## 305fps (Feb 14, 2003)

I too think that WC is the best string I have ever used!!
I have a PRO 40 Dually and the cables haven't moved yet! I goofed up the string the very first day I owned the bow. I put some dental floss on the damaged area and shot the bow several hundred times before my new string came in. I had to pay $40.00 for a Bowtech string. I thought that was a bit steep compared to WC but I wanted to see if there was any difference to replacement string vs. original. There was none!!
We measured both strings under tension and no difference in length. My peep stays put and I haven't had any problems after another 500 shots on the second string. I don't know who supplied my string for my bow but I know it's good quality and I'll just have to wait and see what happens. When it comes time to replace my string and cables I will order WC because of past experiences and price.
As far as Bowtech misrepresenting the string supplier I don't think that they did. I do think that they thought we would assume that it was WC. It would have been nice to see a lower price though!!


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## HillCrestPro (Mar 18, 2003)

*w/c and b/t*

It's obvious that the new strings on the BowTech's are not winner's choice quality. And you must realize that when you have a dual cam bow there will automatically be less stretch on the strings because they are shorter. Now I have an extreme vft with the new strings and it has already stretched and the serving is coming undone. It has only been four weeks! However, I did have one of last years bow tech's with the winners choice string and it held up very well, for a while. After a lot of shots put through it in only two months it stretched my draw lenght out half of an inch but the serving did not come unravelled. I pull hard into the wall of a bow and have had string stretch with every string I have ever shot. My conclusion, with a one cam bow and a very long string no matter who makes it, it will stretch.


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## JeffB (Sep 10, 2002)

*Re: w/c and b/t*



HillCrestPro said:


> *. My conclusion, with a one cam bow and a very long string no matter who makes it, it will stretch. *


Not my experience at all...I've had half a dozen Bowtech singlecams with W/C string and cable (And 2 dual cams), and have only had to put one twist in one of those bows (a Mighty Mite). Long axle to axle, short axle to axle, didn't matter.

I have also bought replacement WC for some of my other brand single track idler onecam bows (i.e. Mathews) without a hitch as well.

On the subject of the O2 Strings from Bowtech, I have found them a teeny bit less creep free than a W/C but still better than any factory string and better than most other "custom" strings I've had. 

That's my experience anyway..YMMV


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## Tinytootall (Mar 19, 2003)

*Arguing*

Why is it most threads turn into fist fights?  

First of all, I have met Matt McPherson and I have been in the Zebra plant. For some of you to say Mathews is brain washing, is because your either lacking self confidence or just like to complain. Matt has got to be one of the nicest and giving persons I have met. He has the smarts for engineering and for advertising his product. Sure... maybe you do not like his product, fine, but there is no sense in bashing it.

Second, I am glad to see WC post something positive. I'm used to seeing them bash other companies. I think, however, they caught on to the fact that their posts could be tracked so when they posted under different names praising their own product and bashing others... people noticed. I know this first hand because they have bashed my shop personally on bowsite.com pretending they were a customer who ordered online from us when in fact they were 100% NOT. Did it hurt us?..possibly...Was it necessary?..no
Maybe it was some crazy marketing scheme but at any rate..LOW

WC makes a high quality string that takes time to process. Zebra also makes a fine string.. the difference is, Zebra probably manufactures 100 times what WC manufactures.

At any rate, If you like WC great! If you like Zebra Great! If you like Tailormade or Stone mountain great! If you hate any of those or any other company, fine.. express it but do it clean. The "WC is too expensive! They are a bunch of overcharging wads" comments are lame as are the "Zebra suck dung my momma can make better strings" It's just a big pissing match and nobody wins.

/rant off

~Ttt


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## stringer (Dec 12, 2002)

tiny,

I would like to make a few comments reguarding your accusations reguarding our internet posting practices. First, I do not know what shop you are with, but I can assure you that no Winner's Choice employee to my knowledge has taken part in the kind of BS discribed in your post. If you have proof of this happening, I would be very intrested in seeing it in a private message. We have very strict policys reguarding this type of behavior, and frankly I find it very hard to belive that any message from any of our personell was directed at your shop. As any one who follows posts from our company can attest, We make no attempt to hide our identity, and all of my posts are ended with My name and position for all to see. If you have proof of your claimes please let me know, and I will deal with the responsible person. If you cannot back up what you are saying, please do not post it on a public forum. I agree with you that many of the postings on the forums start unnessisary bickering. I also think that posting as you did only serves to increase this problem.

Mike Slinkard,
V.P. Winner's Choice


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## 2XLARCHER (Feb 20, 2003)

*ambushed*

"and all of my posts are ended with My name and position for all to see."

Wait a minute there Mr. slinkard. Be careful now. you don't identify your self all the time. You came over to the Classifieds side of the site and challenged my little BowTech ad decription like it was a buyer question. I answered to the best of my knowlege with fact as I knew it. Only to find you were waiting to pounce with your reply like I was a direct threat to your company. THat is when you identified yourself. 
Having gone onto the classified in search of prey like a crusing shark leaving my simple little bow ad looking like a discredited fo. This I feel was unnecessary. Thanks for posting the flashing red light on my classified. It has been a very effective. I hope all your wounded editorial gains you the sales you desperately seek in Kansas City.


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## stringer (Dec 12, 2002)

2x,

Sorry, you caught me on that one, however if you were to click the profile button you would see that my name and position is clearly outlined. The ommision of my name in the text of the post was an oversight on my part and will not happen again. 

sincerley,

" the Shark"

Mike Slinkard,
V.P. Winner's Choice


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## 2XLARCHER (Feb 20, 2003)

*weak reply*

The signature ommition was just one of the smaller points now wasn't it......Mike


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## montanaarchery (Mar 11, 2003)

Let me tell you all something. I have been doing business with Mike and Tom for a few years now. If he tells you something it's the truth. Don't look at him as if he is at falt for checking up on what strings that are supposed to be on bows by a signed contract. Because WC did not void the contract with BT it was the other way around. Don't point fingers until you know the facts. Rumers are for teen agers.


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## pdq 5oh (Sep 7, 2002)

> we feel it is important to let the public know that we decided in January to stop supplying BowTech with strings,” Slinkard stated.


Which way was it?


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## Ausie-guy (Dec 7, 2002)

So confusing on one hand you have a WCCB press release saying they stop the supply then someone comes on and say no it was not it was the other way round.

I think that was what Phil was refering too.

But what gets me is that BT said all the strings where going to be called 02 no matter who the supplier was.

So why would people just assume that they where WCCB strings.

We all know what happens when you assume


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## pdq 5oh (Sep 7, 2002)

> Sorry, you caught me on that one,


Miss this one from above? Hmmm.


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## S4 300-60 (Mar 18, 2003)

Im sorry I didnt see this post sooner. Bowtech is so cheap and deceptive they led customers to believe they were getting wc strings when in fact they were just using designer imposters at half the price! At least wc had the decency not to tell the world that all though they knew it was the case. Everyone raves about their bowtech but I think they are horrible to do buisness with.I have had several problems with bows within my shop, and the blame the problems on everything except their equipment. Like the generation 3 with the bad bushing in the loser 3 rd cam. What a bonehead company for trying to get over on customers. Not in my shop!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## pdq 5oh (Sep 7, 2002)

> Everyone raves about their bowtech


I guess this says more to me than you do. I've had the same experiences. People generally seem to like the bow they shoot. Some people seem to hate the bows others shoot. I will say this, Mathews should thank BowTech for building bows good enough to take the heat off of them.


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## Ausie-guy (Dec 7, 2002)

> Bowtech is so cheap and deceptive they led customers to believe they were getting wc strings


I have to dissagree with you on this I have seen Bowtechs catalogue for this year and nowhere could I find any reference to WCCB they advertised all the strings to be 02 strings.

So once again people just ASSUMED that the strings where WCCB


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## empty (Feb 15, 2003)

Not my experience at all. Everytime I talked to people at Bowtech, I was told the bow I ordered would not have WC strings. I will probably by a set of WC to have on hand, or replace the O2 if they don't hold up as I would like them to. I will also say that Bowtech went out of their way to answer my questions and keep their commitment as to when the bow would ship. I did have some problems, but it was with what I viewed as a poor/ uninformed dealer. I switched dealers.


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## JeffB (Sep 10, 2002)

YAAAAAAWWWWWWWNNNNNNN...

C'mon where's the whip?...let's beat this horse some more, He ain't dead enough!!!! 


YEEEEEHHHHHHAAAAWWWWW...


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## S4 300-60 (Mar 18, 2003)

Many the skulls run thick in this room! Bowtech was using winners choice strings on their bows, they had a contract (this was before the 02 strings) customers were told they were getting wc strings, but in an attempt to save money, bowtech had "imposter strings" at half the cost on some of their bows. This is why wc bailed on bowtech.


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## pdq 5oh (Sep 7, 2002)

bigGP, I see you posting more of other people's experiences than your own. I also see more people posting of positive experiences than negative. 
ICON, actually BowTech stated they were going to designate strings as 02. There was a contract with WC to provide strings (made after this announcement), as well as other manufacturers. When BowTech chose not to specify which bows had 02 strings of WC manufacture, WC broke the contract with their decision to not supply strings.
Jeff, this horse IS bleeding heavily.


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## XChaser (Mar 5, 2003)

*WC - Bowtech*

Why dosen't everyone hang it up!!!
Winners Choise makes great strings.
Bowtech makes great bows.
They (the two companies) have desided to terminate their contracts with each other.
So let's get on with gettin on and shoot more arrows and leave the companies and those with a vested interests to carry on, on their seperate ways.
Archery is about shooting arrows and advancing the sport and promoting junior programs to get more archers in the field shooting.
Have you ever noticed that "DARTS" gets coverage on TV. They shoot three, they have fun and they get major sponsers.
Ever wonder why, think about it!!


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## walks with a gi (Oct 1, 2002)

I just read the '03 BowTech catalog and nowhere does it state that any bows would be using Winner's Choice strings. It does state that the Duallys would come with cable adjusters and none have been shipped with them yet. Why hasen't anyone had a burr up their yazzzoo about that? Come on flamers you missed that one!!


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## MCB_MI (Nov 19, 2002)

Walk with a GI 
I don't have a catalog right in front of me but on the web site it states that the cable adjusters are a option, so no one missed it, it's not there. Just like this how string thing they are listed as O2 not wccb or anything else.


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## deadx (Aug 6, 2002)

Doesn`t make any difference what strings come on my Pro 40 Dually when it gets here because they are coming off and strings made of Spectra Phase 2 are going on. I am in the process of having the strings on my 2003 Black Knight changed to the same also.I have shot this material for several years now and it is easily the strongest, most durable, and easiest material to work with,period. No waxing, no stretch, no creep, no peep rotation, and each strand is braided so it is very hard to cut it and there is absolutely no fraying. I will also use the soft yoke system made of the same material so no skinny split cables that get worn or cut easily. This stuff should be standard on every bow but I guess it is a well guarded secret.


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## walks with a gi (Oct 1, 2002)

DeadX, sounds like you have had some good luck with the Spectra material. You should let BowTech know of your results when you get everything changed over. BowTech really listens to their customers wants and needs so that they can improve their products. Good luck!


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## David Chouinard (Dec 19, 2002)

My pro wheely has taken app. 100+ for the strings to settle down, wheels haven't gone out of time the last two times I shot it, though I haven't shot since Dec., only x's I missed were my fault and that wasn't very many. Only thing I don't care for is the centershot NOT behind the grip!!! David PS Been waiting for this 5 months, ouch


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## deadx (Aug 6, 2002)

David, might want to take a real close look at your center shot again. I believe it is directly behind the grip! I thought the same thing until I set my Black Knight up and found that there is almost an optical illusion with the arrow pass on the bow and the effect is that you want to move your rest closer to the riser than you actually should.The center line of your arrow will be close to the edge of the shelf on the BowTech Duallys(about a 1/4 inch inside the edge or so).


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## empty (Feb 15, 2003)

Steve,
What does the centershot on your BK II measure. I set mine up and papertuned it an dfound the centershot was close to 7/8 off the face of riser. I have my Nap 3000 extended all the way to the left to get it correct.


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## deadx (Aug 6, 2002)

Empty, that is about what I have. At first glance it looks too far out but it is correct and man do those arrows fly straight. I shoot 2613`s and I never would have dreamed I would get that kind of flight from that stiff of a shaft at 61.5 lbs peak draw. I think some of us that have switched to BowTech bows are used to having a shelf that extends farther out from the arrow pass than BowTech bows have.  

Walks w/a gi, the change-over worked even better than I hoped it would. Now I will never have to worry about fraying or waxing or maintenance of any kind since I have never had Phase 2 strings stretch or creep on me. I used 14 strands and went to a soft yoke system and put TruBall speed balls on to replace the shrink wrapped Brass nock sets that were originally on the string. Gained about .3 fps. That is a good thing!!


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## walks with a gi (Oct 1, 2002)

I think the shelf on the new BowTech's looks narrow because of the narrow grip. A guy could very carefully graft on a piece of exotic wood to the top side of the grip to add to the shelf for security reasons if you like. Are most of you shooting with the original grip on or using an aftremarket set up? Where can you get the Spectra material, sounds great?


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## deadx (Aug 6, 2002)

Walks w/a gi, it is made by Cardoza Creations the same people who make the quick disconnects for stabilizers and peak draw weight scales and other bow accessories.Might call Lancaster Archery and see if they carry it or if they know how it can be ordered. It is definitely worth the hassle believe me!


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## PatD (Oct 18, 2002)

"I think some of us that have switched to BowTech bows are used to having a shelf that extends farther out from the arrow pass than BowTech bows have."

It really does look like the arrow is just hanging there with the narrow shelf. I didn't like that when I first got the bow.....


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