# Does speed kill???



## x-force hunter (Apr 10, 2009)

I think it does. With the same arrow a bow that shoots 320 fps will have more energy and penetration than a bow that shoots the same arrow at 280 fps. Speed also reduced yardage misestimation making you more capable of putting your arrow in the vitals.


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## Mathewsju (Jan 19, 2008)

camofreak said:


> Who here thinks speed really kills???? Just want some input on what you guys think about this.
> 
> I dont think it does.. just my .02


speed doesn't necessarily kill,but it sure helps:wink: it depends on what is moving and what comes into contact with it 
a car at 20 mph can do alot more damage than an arrow at 300 fps


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## camofreak (Jun 18, 2009)

But if you are shooting a big 2219 arrow with a 320fps bow, it will nock the crap out of whatever you are shooting at, it will give alot more penetration, and it will be slower.


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## Bowhunter500 (Mar 23, 2007)

x-force hunter said:


> I think it does. With the same arrow a bow that shoots 320 fps will have more energy and penetration than a bow that shoots the same arrow at 280 fps. Speed also reduced yardage misestimation making you more capable of putting your arrow in the vitals.


Right right.. but the same arrow at 280 fps can easily go through a deer with proper shot placement. My mom has a bow and she shot 40 lbs and got a complete pass through at 278 fps at 15 yds..... whereas my step dad shoots at 66 lbs and has had one pass through at 15 yds..

Shot placement is vital in the sport of hunting.. speed doesnt do it all...

Yes i agree without speed, we have no bows

But without skills, we have no dead deer... 

So this is pretty much a majorly debatable subject...

I say not all speed... but lots of skill


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## x-force hunter (Apr 10, 2009)

Bowhunter500 said:


> Right right.. but the same arrow at 280 fps can easily go through a deer with proper shot placement. My mom has a bow and she shot 40 lbs and got a complete pass through at 278 fps at 15 yds..... whereas my step dad shoots at 66 lbs and has had one pass through at 15 yds..
> 
> Shot placement is vital in the sport of hunting.. speed doesnt do it all...
> 
> ...


Shot placement is key but an arrow that is shot out of a faster bow will have more penetration than the same arrow shot at a slower speed.


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## Bowhunter500 (Mar 23, 2007)

x-force hunter said:


> Shot placement is key but an arrow that is shot out of a faster bow will have more penetration than the same arrow shot at a slower speed.


Well duh.. thats common sense...

Question was... does speed kill..

My answer is no.. shot placement kills...

like i said.. without speed, there is no bow.. 

without shot placement.. nothing dies...

You could shoot the little black starter bows with a sharp tip and still kill somethin.. reguardless of speed. Shot placement is key.. thats all im sayin.


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## Jared Les (Jun 22, 2008)

No.


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## sawtoothscream (Apr 19, 2008)

No. The broadhead going through the lungs or heart does.


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## No.1 Hoyt (Mar 11, 2007)

The only reason I would want a fast bow is if I miss judged distance.


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## camofreak (Jun 18, 2009)

sawtoothscream said:


> No. The broadhead going through the lungs or heart does.



Thats not what we are talking about though. Or that could be shot plaacement


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## camofreak (Jun 18, 2009)

No.1 Hoyt said:


> The only reason I would want a fast bow is if I miss judged distance.



But even if you mis-judge distance your going to miss with a faster bow, cause misjudging is misjudging. And if you know where your arrow shoots you wont mis-judge.


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## thrill_seeker (Feb 2, 2008)

Speed doesnt kill, if its a light arrow it will slow down faster compared to a heavier arrow
so if your takeing weight off your arrow to shoot faster it isnt help as much as you think.


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## master hunter (Oct 9, 2007)

in my oppion it does.... but as thrill seeker said that a lighter arrow will loose power faster than a heaver arrow. i did an experiement on that issue and i found that u can loose power just as much with a heavy arrow as much as u can with a light arrow. and plus u can get speed with a heavy arrow anyway.


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## Sighting In (Feb 5, 2009)

No, I don't think speed kills. I don't see how a 300 fps pass through is any more lethal then a 250 fps pass through. 

Bowhunter500 is right, shot placement is key. You can have a 500 fps arrow, but if you hit it's foot it is not going to die. But if you put a 250 fps arrow in the lungs the deer will be going down. It all depends on where the speed goes, not how fast it is going.

Also, think about this. Cavemen apparently started with spears that were thrown by hand. They went maybe 150 fps, but they killed deer with it. Obviously you can do without the speed.


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## camofreak (Jun 18, 2009)

Sighting In said:


> No, I don't think speed kills. I don't see how a 300 fps pass through is any more lethal then a 250 fps pass through.
> 
> Bowhunter500 is right, shot placement is key. You can have a 500 fps arrow, but if you hit it's foot it is not going to die. But if you put a 250 fps arrow in the lungs the deer will be going down. It all depends on where the speed goes, not how fast it is going.
> 
> Also, think about this. Cavemen apparently started with spears that were thrown by hand. They went maybe 150 fps, but they killed deer with it. Obviously you can do without the speed.


Exactly, that caveman one explained the whole thing.

Thanks


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## Joe(y) (Mar 1, 2009)

Like it has been said two million times before the shot placement is the key to a pass through and a clean kill. The arrow can be going 500 fps for all I care and if you miss it the deer isn't going to say whoa that was going really fast I will just die because of that. But speed deffinately helps. The faster the arrow goes the more penetration it can have, less time for the deer to jump the string, less margin for error. A kill doesn't come from one component but many different things put together


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## camofreak (Jun 18, 2009)

True True


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## Bowhunter500 (Mar 23, 2007)

Sighting In said:


> No, I don't think speed kills. I don't see how a 300 fps pass through is any more lethal then a 250 fps pass through.
> 
> Bowhunter500 is right, shot placement is key. You can have a 500 fps arrow, but if you hit it's foot it is not going to die. But if you put a 250 fps arrow in the lungs the deer will be going down. It all depends on where the speed goes, not how fast it is going.
> 
> Also, think about this. Cavemen apparently started with spears that were thrown by hand. They went maybe 150 fps, but they killed deer with it. Obviously you can do without the speed.


Whoop whoop.. 

1 for bowhunter500 

Thanks for the support!


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## LimbsaverKeenan (Dec 2, 2008)

camofreak said:


> But if you are shooting a big 2219 arrow with a 320fps bow, it will nock the crap out of whatever you are shooting at, it will give alot more penetration, and it will be slower.


YES!! finaly some one gets it!! good job camofreak:clap:


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## camofreak (Jun 18, 2009)

LimbsaverKeenan said:


> YES!! finaly some one gets it!! good job camofreak:clap:


I knew that, i just wanted to know what you guys thought about speed killing, it seems that you couldnt figure that out.


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## Sighting In (Feb 5, 2009)

This is a totally a controversial subject, btw. We all have their opinions and we are willing to share them. 

Anyways, I am not saying that speed doesn't help. It gives the deer less time to run away, it helps you misjudge yardage by a bit, but not much. And yes you do need a certain amount of KE to kill, which mostly comes from speed. 

I'm not saying that I don't care about speed. My guardian is pushing out arrows at 260 fps without even trying to get it fast. But my point is, you need to be able to hit the thing before you can hit it quickly. I would rather go kill a deer with a bow that barely kills it, but is more accurate then a rifle, then go and use a 600 fps bow that I can't shoot worth c**p. 

There it is.


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## I'm Not Ted (Feb 12, 2009)

Speed doesn't kill, a well placed shot with a sharp object affixed to the end of it does. Theoretically, if you could get close enough, you could kill a deer with a rather large rock. Does that have speed? Nope. But if you hit it in the head hard enough, that's a dead SOB. But I'm no expert. JMO.


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## Ignition kid (Oct 7, 2008)

I think speed kills just as much as having a heavier arrow, to me if you had a light weight arrow and then shot a heavier arrow, most likely you would have almost the same amount of penetration and pass-through power as a heavier arrow.


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## Ignition kid (Oct 7, 2008)

The only reason I would want my bow to be faster is so i don't need as many pins and I could shoot faster further away than a bow with a heavier arrow, but I would agree with you guys that it doesn't really matter about having a slow bow or a fast bow too much, it's more important that your shot lacement is in the right spot.


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## I'm Not Ted (Feb 12, 2009)

A lighter arrow will give you speed but a heavy one will give you power. To me, a heavy arrow is for if you are hunting at close distances or large game where a light one is for smaller animals or longer distance.


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## kegan (Aug 28, 2006)

An additional 10 fps will give you the same boost in kinetic energy as a 100 gr heavier arrow. 

However, a heavier arrow makes your bow more efficeint. Even with highly efficient compounds, a heavier arrow reduces vibration and noise, making it a better hunting bow. Heavier arrows are also less affeceted by wind and deflection. 

A lighter arrow, however, makes it easier to aim. Sights or barebow, a faster bow has a flatter trajectory. If I'm correct, 10 fps gives you about 5-10 yards better trajectory, therefore easier aiming. 

Does speed kill? Of course not. Tests have shown that certain Natives had very poor wood to make their gear and just used heavy arrows going, maybe 120 fps. That's on a good day. They had a short power stroke and flabby cast. What did they sacrifice? Distance. These bows were close range only.

My bows rarely break 160 fps. However, I know from experience that shooting a heavier arrow cleans up form mistakes and adds power. I aslo know that speeds makes aiming a breeze and greatly increases one's capable range. This becomes a matter of "what do you need your bow to do?"

Close range hunters (under 55-60 yards) would benefiet from heavier arrows. You don't want the game to hear you shoot. However, people in the west who might have to take longer shots would be better with the lighter arrow moving much faster.

In response to the actual question? No. Speed has very little to do with the actually killing- shot placement and the broadhead does the killing. Does it effect the outcome of the hunt? Sure does, but indirectly.


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## I'm Not Ted (Feb 12, 2009)

kegan said:


> Close range hunters (under 55-60 yards) would benefiet from heavier arrows. You don't want the game to hear you shoot. However, people in the west who might have to take longer shots would be better with the lighter arrow moving much faster.


YES! :clap:


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## x-force hunter (Apr 10, 2009)

If you are shooting lower poundage then a heavier arrow at a slower speed is better and will give you more penetration, but if you are shooting high poundage then a 5gpp arrow will go faster and have more energy than that heavier arrow shot out of a slower bow. With a 340 grain arrow at 68# going 319 fps my X-Force generates around 85 foot pounds of energy which is plenty of energy and a lot of speed. If somebody comes up with a slow speed setup heavy arow setup I will run it through my archery program and see how much KE it prooduces.


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## kegan (Aug 28, 2006)

x-force hunter said:


> If you are shooting lower poundage then a heavier arrow at a slower speed is better and will give you more penetration, but if you are shooting high poundage then a 5gpp arrow will go faster and have more energy than that heavier arrow shot out of a slower bow. With a 340 grain arrow at 68# going 319 fps my X-Force generates around 85 foot pounds of energy which is plenty of energy and a lot of speed. If somebody comes up with a slow speed setup heavy arow setup I will run it through my archery program and see how much KE it prooduces.


You don't need a program. Velocity squared times the arrow weight divided by 450800. 

I don't think it's light weight, but slower speeds. For longbowman hutning heavy skinned African game, even with bows over 90#, you don't want a light arrow but a very heavy one (excess of 1000 gr). These bows are veyr powerful, but not as fast as a compound.

Of course, 25 pounds is enough to kill a whitetail, so most of the arguments for "more penetration" are pointless.


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## I'm Not Ted (Feb 12, 2009)

Okay. When I can't understand what you guys are saying it's time to leave.


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## kegan (Aug 28, 2006)

Another thing to think about: which would do more damage- a feather going at 700 fps, or a rock going at 100 fps? The rock of course. Why? Because it is a more damaging projectile. Which that speed obvisouly isn't the killing agent.


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## I'm Not Ted (Feb 12, 2009)

Kinda what I was getting at with shot placement.


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## camofreak (Jun 18, 2009)

So basically kinetic energy and shot placement.


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## I'm Not Ted (Feb 12, 2009)

Jes.


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## HoytBoyJr (Jun 29, 2009)

*No*

Speed does not kill!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## kegan (Aug 28, 2006)

camofreak said:


> So basically kinetic energy and shot placement.


I wouldn't even say KE. I've yet to see a modern compound, recurve, or longbow in legal hunting weight range that doesn't produce enough KE.


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## PA3-DArcher4 (Nov 5, 2008)

I would say that shot placement and a good radius of your broadhead is more key. But Speed is important to an extent. Like If You have a 350 fps bow that's just rediculas and unneccisary, I think.


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## x-force hunter (Apr 10, 2009)

I wouldn't say that a 350 fps bow is ridiculous and unnecasary. My next bow is going to be 366 fps or maybe even higher if I wait. It is only ridiculous and unnecesary to those who can't shoot it well. with a faster bow you can shoot a heavier arrow faster giving you more energy. The same arrow shot out of a faster bow give you more energy and the energy comes in handy when you come in contact with bone such as a rib or shoulder. The faster the arrow is going the more energy it has and the more power it has to smash through he bone instead on being stopped dead. Faster bow = faster arrow= more energy which IMO means that speed helps kill.


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## camofreak (Jun 18, 2009)

kegan said:


> I wouldn't even say KE. I've yet to see a modern compound, recurve, or longbow in legal hunting weight range that doesn't produce enough KE.


Well the bigger the arrow the more KE.


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## kegan (Aug 28, 2006)

camofreak said:


> Well the bigger the arrow the more KE.


Good point. I was thinking more along the lines of the speed, but you're right- it's a balance.

X-Force, I think you're still going for overkill though. A 70# compound with 300 fps is more than enough power to shoot through most bones on the game animals shot today. A 75# longbow with good, heavy arrow at about 155-165 fps is enough to break a bone, so more modern implements can do the same with less issue.

The problem with needing that extra power is in the arrowhead. Now, if everyone used chisel tips or expandables- then heck yeah, more power. Because those points thrive on brute force. However, a razor sharp two-blade cut-on-contact head will slice the bone, or in some cases glance off and tear up the rest of the insides (archer's fault here, and goes back to Bowhunter and I'm not Ted about placement). Look at the gear shot in years prior: a wooden longbow could split a bone clean as anything with a good arrow and proper point.

I think if you stop and realize that all this extra power in market bows is jsut to make up for some flaw in the archer, such as broadhead choice, skill, etc. it becomes _less_ necessary to make bows that shoot even faster. Is it unecessary? Of course not, it helps archers who need to hunt at longer ranges, and there it IS _necessary_. But the average archer? Naw. Unless he is too lazy or foolish to take a moment to think about what he should be doing.


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## FITAfanatic (Jun 29, 2009)

*Yuppers!*

From my opinion, it does. If there is more speed, there is more momentum for penetration.


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## NMYoungGun (May 29, 2009)

ok. heres my opinion. I am a firm beleiver that it is shot placement not speed that kills the animal. But, i read that a speed bow(320-330fps)has a flatter trajectory than a slower bow. therefore decreasing pin gap and giving you a better chance of hitting a animal that you may have misjudged the distance on.

For instanceif you are shooting a bow that spits arrows at aroud 250 your pin gaps would be wider than if you were shooting 320 fps. 

so with a 250fps setup, if you misjudged a 40 yd shot and aimed for 50, you miss over the back. 

now in the same situation with a bow that shoots at 330. you misjudge and shoot for 50 but since your pin gaps are very small, your 40 and 50yd pin are both on the animal.

so if you do misjudge a shot you do have a better chance at success with a faster bow. Im not saying that speed ever over rules where you put that arrow but it helps.


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## thrill_seeker (Feb 2, 2008)

NMYoungGun said:


> ok. heres my opinion. I am a firm beleiver that it is shot placement not speed that kills the animal. But, i read that a speed bow(320-330fps)has a flatter trajectory than a slower bow. therefore decreasing pin gap and giving you a better chance of hitting a animal that you may have misjudged the distance on.
> 
> For instanceif you are shooting a bow that spits arrows at aroud 250 your pin gaps would be wider than if you were shooting 320 fps.
> 
> ...


the gap of error is smaller but either way you missed the mark you where shooting at it with the fast bow its just gunna be a bit but still kill.

Speed just makes up for the lazy archer
get out pratice your yardages make sure your able to figure out the range under the heat of the momment 
you dont have to drop another $200 just the have a faster bow just so you dont have to practice as much. 
Just get out and practice and have fun easy as that


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## Wolfey (Aug 12, 2008)

x-force hunter said:


> If you are shooting lower poundage then a heavier arrow at a slower speed is better and will give you more penetration, but if you are shooting high poundage then a 5gpp arrow will go faster and have more energy than that heavier arrow shot out of a slower bow. With a 340 grain arrow at 68# going 319 fps my X-Force generates around 85 foot pounds of energy which is plenty of energy and a lot of speed. If somebody comes up with a slow speed setup heavy arow setup I will run it through my archery program and see how much KE it prooduces.


Not to be mean but your bow only produces 76.8# of KE. If you dont know the equation it's speed squared x mass/450240 and kinetic energy isn't what determins penetration momentum does and the equation for that is speed x mass/225120. so your momentum is .48 which was the same as my old bow that only had 62# of KE but shot a 400gr arrow.


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## x-force hunter (Apr 10, 2009)

Wolfey said:


> Not to be mean but your bow only produces 76.8# of KE. If you dont know the equation it's speed squared x mass/450240 and kinetic energy isn't what determins penetration momentum does and the equation for that is speed x mass/225120. so your momentum is .48 which was the same as my old bow that only had 62# of KE but shot a 400gr arrow.


I don't know how that would be mean. Even at 77 # of KE my bow still has a lot more tha most people and plenty for a whitetail but I was thinking of the KE from my X at 70 lbs with a 360 grain arrow which has 85 lbs of KE.


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## Sighting In (Feb 5, 2009)

x-force hunter said:


> I wouldn't say that a 350 fps bow is ridiculous and unnecasary. My next bow is going to be 366 fps or maybe even higher if I wait. It is only ridiculous and unnecesary to those who can't shoot it well. with a faster bow you can shoot a heavier arrow faster giving you more energy. The same arrow shot out of a faster bow give you more energy and the energy comes in handy when you come in contact with bone such as a rib or shoulder. The faster the arrow is going the more energy it has and the more power it has to smash through he bone instead on being stopped dead. Faster bow = faster arrow= more energy which IMO means that speed helps kill.


Yes, a faster bow does = a faster arrow which does = more energy. But, more energy does not necessarily mean a kill! It all depends on where that energy goes. 

Look, a 200 fps was enough to kill a deer 20 years ago. Why is it not anymore? Yes, that extra 150 fps does help a bit, but it is not needed. 

So, I think the answer to the original question is no, speed does not kill, but it makes the kill easier. Can we all agree on that?


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## kegan (Aug 28, 2006)

Sighting In said:


> Look, a 200 fps was enough to kill a deer 20 years ago. Why is it not anymore?


You already andswered your own question. there are, have been, and always will be people killing game animals with 150 fps bows. 

But just as the compound came around to make it easier, faster compounds are coming around to make it even easier still. That's the final reason, not power, not lethality. It's ease. People want to have a bow that will do magic for them, no matter what. Faster bows help do that magic.


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## Wolfey (Aug 12, 2008)

x-force hunter said:


> I don't know how that would be mean. Even at 77 # of KE my bow still has a lot more tha most people and plenty for a whitetail but I was thinking of the KE from my X at 70 lbs with a 360 grain arrow for


yeah you have plenty of KE but I have more at 92# of KE. Post your setup on the thread I just started a few minutes ago.


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## x-force hunter (Apr 10, 2009)

Sighting In said:


> So, I think the answer to the original question is no, speed does not kill, but it makes the kill easier. Can we all agree on that?


I was trying to say that but I got sidetracked. I agree 100 % with that. I personally like my speed bows.


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