# Getting all of the parts to work together



## cbrunson (Oct 25, 2010)

Assuming now that the basic operation of the release has been exercised to perfection on the blank bale, and you’ve gone through everything imaginable to get the dot/pin to hold reasonably still. (call it float or whatever you choose.)

Now you have to piece the two things together. Let’s assume that we are including all the other things that are important to you such as footing, alignment of planets, etc. I am only concerned with the two, so I’ll focus on those. How do you put those things together and make them work? Is it one fluid process? Do you follow a strict order of operation via internal checklist? Or do you just feel the shot, letting one or both of the main processes work on their own?

If you just let one end happen and focus on the other, how do you discover issues that arise with the subconscious one? Do you fail, then attempt to self-evaluate, or do you step back and try to adjust your focus back to that process long enough to diagnose issues, then attempt to let it slip back to the subconscious with those corrections?

I ask this because I hear many comments about letting the release just happen, or just letting the pin “float” while focus is placed on the opposing end. Then, I also see most top level shooters making adjustments to one or both of those things frequently.

I think it’s safe to say we all agree that those things need to be working near perfection to shoot at a high level, but do they work independently, or co-dependently?


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## unclejane (Jul 22, 2012)

Ah, nice.. now it's* my *turn to depart from the "core principles" and get chastised for going off on my own LOL. So, here goes.

Effectively, I virtually never practice my shot routine separately from aiming. In all the years I've shot and all the various bows, releases, etc. that I've used, I've done the blank bale thing for a month one time that I can recall (with my first Hoyt when I first discovered I had target panic). And it was ineffective at treating my TP. All the rest of the time, I can think of the amount of blank baling (by that I mean shooting without also aiming) I've done literally in terms of minutes or maybe half-hours here and there and that's all.

So, contrary to what may be considered a proper principle, I get a target involved very quickly on any change in either technique or equipment. With a new release, for example, maybe an hour or so on the practice rope to get the basic idea, then maybe an afternoon at the blank bale with the actual bow. But literally as soon as I determine I can hit the target butt at a reasonable yardage (preferably 20 yards), even if just barely, the sight goes on and a target face goes up on the butt.

Only if something really major happens, like roughing in a new bow or going to a totally different release method, do I go back to the blank bale. But soon as I can hit it comfortably, the target pops back up.

Reason for this: it has been my finding that I learn the quickest if I assemble the whole entire activity as early as possible. Even if it's a bit of schlock when all put together, I like to work with the whole thing as soon as I can. I'm sympathetic with the notion of separating out the shot from the aiming for purposes of practicing them, but sadly, at some point you have to put them back together again. 

Because of that rather somber fact of shooting, that one must ultimately aim the bow somewhere at the end of the day, To me, the shortest route has just always been putting and keeping them together at all times unless it's just absolutely necessary to separate them....

My .02,

PS: sorry missed this question:


> If you just let one end happen and focus on the other, how do you discover issues that arise with the subconscious one? Do you fail, then attempt to self-evaluate, or do you step back and try to adjust your focus back to that process long enough to diagnose issues, then attempt to let it slip back to the subconscious with those corrections?


Yes. 

LS


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## cbrunson (Oct 25, 2010)

Okay, perhaps I wasn’t clearly stating what the question in my head was asking. 

I wasn’t asking when you feel comfortable enough to shoot paper, I was asking how you view or work both processes concurrently at the shot, to keep both working correctly, consistently. That is, if you have a firm grasp on aiming, AND release execution, independently.


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## unclejane (Jul 22, 2012)

cbrunson said:


> Okay, perhaps I wasn’t clearly stating what the question in my head was asking.
> 
> I wasn’t asking when you feel comfortable enough to shoot paper, I was asking how you view or work both processes concurrently at the shot, to keep both working correctly, consistently. That is, if you have a firm grasp on aiming, AND release execution, independently.


No, I don't, personally. Like I said, I treat them as unified extremely early in the process and, in fact, don't like to even try to treat them as separate skills. In some sense I know they are and can, if necessary, do each separately. But at the end of the day, you do want that good shot to send an arrow into the X, so aiming and shot execution must necessarily work together. At least in target archery or hunting, maybe in other archery disciplines it's not important, but for ours it is.

PS: for example, I haven't scored a target face yet since last summer when I resumed shooting, but I've shot at a target, with the intent of getting an arrow as close to the center as possible for this entire time. 

LS


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## Lazarus (Sep 19, 2005)

My eye takes care of the aiming. If I stare the X down hard enough it just stays in the middle of the ring (for all practical purposes.) My brain takes care of the release at the same time my eye takes care of the aiming. Attempting to define any of it as conscious or subconscious is an exercise in futility to me. However, one thing I know, they are the same process, here's how I know, if I have sight movement (which is very, very minimal) it is normally introduced by a disconnect between the eye and the release hand. Rarely do I sense unacceptable sight movement introduced by the bow arm alone. 

One process here.


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## unclejane (Jul 22, 2012)

same here, basically...

LS


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

cbrunson said:


> Okay, perhaps I wasn’t clearly stating what the question in my head was asking.
> 
> I wasn’t asking when you feel comfortable enough to shoot paper, I was asking how you view or work both processes concurrently at the shot, to keep both working correctly, consistently. That is, if you have a firm grasp on aiming, AND release execution, independently.


If by coaches and many others execution of the shot can be put in gear and continues on it's own. The only thing left is for one to aim and keep aiming until the shot breaks and of course one follows through.


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## EPLC (May 21, 2002)

cbrunson said:


> Okay, perhaps I wasn’t clearly stating what the question in my head was asking.
> 
> I wasn’t asking when you feel comfortable enough to shoot paper, I was asking how you view or work both processes concurrently at the shot, to keep both working correctly, consistently. That is, if you have a firm grasp on aiming, AND release execution, independently.


Just so I understand correctly: You've built both ends of the shot cognitively and now want to know how to translate these two separate activities into one automated skill? And then, once you have things automated, how do you identify and fix things that break?


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## Lazarus (Sep 19, 2005)

EPLC said:


> Just so I understand correctly: You've built both ends of the shot cognitively and now want to know how to translate these two separate activities into one automated skill? And then, once you have things automated, how do you identify and fix things that break?


If that is what he's saying I can answer that question I think. Why? Because that is what I shoot for, having both sides automatic (which translates into it's only one process.) The answer to your question is this; practice is not competition. That's why you practice, to break things down, to analyze, and to improve. Which brings me to some of the worst archery advice ever quoted (for most shooters,) which is; "Practice like you compete." For most people that's just sillyness. What sport practices as easy as it competes? I doubt any. The purpose of most practice is to push, to fix, to train. You can't do that by practicing like you compete.

Granted, there are SUPER high level shooters that when they practice are simply keeping the body in tune and practicing their perfected repetition. But I'd say that number is less that 1% of competitive archers. The rest of us have to "work" on something when we practice if we want to improve. 

:cheers:


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## darton3d (Oct 16, 2009)

Lazarus said:


> If that is what he's saying I can answer that question I think. Why? Because that is what I shoot for, having both sides automatic (which translates into it's only one process.) The answer to your question is this; practice is not competition. That's why you practice, to break things down, to analyze, and to improve. Which brings me to some of the worst archery advice ever quoted (for most shooters,) which is; "Practice like you compete." For most people that's just sillyness. What sport practices as easy as it competes? I doubt any. The purpose of most practice is to push, to fix, to train. You can't do that by practicing like you compete.
> 
> Granted, there are SUPER high level shooters that when they practice are simply keeping the body in tune and practicing their perfected repetition. But I'd say that number is less that 1% of competitive archers. The rest of us have to "work" on something when we practice if we want to improve.
> 
> :cheers:


Agree, I don't remember where I read this but.........In competition you don't rise to the occasion, you fall back to the level of your practice.


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## cbrunson (Oct 25, 2010)

EPLC said:


> Just so I understand correctly: You've built both ends of the shot cognitively and now want to know how to translate these two separate activities into one automated skill? And then, once you have things automated, how do you identify and fix things that break?


It was more of a loaded question. I hear many shooters say they let the dot “float” and focus on the release. Others focus on aiming and let the release happen. Even fewer believe they meld the two into one subconscious action.

My question is – When you let one of those (or both) become a subconscious part of your shot routine, how do you identify and fix issues when they arise?


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## ron w (Jan 5, 2013)

exactly.
when I was at Vegas, as a rank amateur shooting in a tournament that was way over my head as far as my capabilities were concerned.... I think I shot a Vegas face for about two or three weeks, in preparation of making my trip there. obviously nerves got the best of me as soon as that shoot beep sounded. after the first few shots, I realized I had to do something, I couldn't keep flailing arrows all over the place. 
the thought that came to mind, was that I needed to immerse myself in my execution,...."shoot my shots like was at practice at home". 
I started to think only about executing shots as well as I could, and within a few ends, I was completely at ease and putting the arrows where they should go, in relative terms. I ended up actually shooting a personal best Vegas score at the tournament.


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## EPLC (May 21, 2002)

cbrunson said:


> It was more of a loaded question. I hear many shooters say they let the dot “float” and focus on the release. Others focus on aiming and let the release happen. Even fewer believe they meld the two into one subconscious action.
> 
> My question is – When you let one of those (or both) become a subconscious part of your shot routine, how do you identify and fix issues when they arise?


Good question. I may even be able to come up with an answer once I figure out what "automatic" actually is. If I'm honest with myself I truly do not have a good handle on the application of automatic activity in archery. Sure, I operate on automatic all day in various activities such as walking, talking, typing this post, etc., but I honestly do not understand it. You hear people say you should be able to repeat cognitively what you do automatically because you had to practice it step by step. I don't find this to be the case at all. Many, if not most of my automated skills are so automatic I'd be guessing to repeat them cognitively. When I shoot I'm very much aware of what is going on. While I'm sure some of this has translated into automation, I seem to be very much aware of what is going on. This seems to be common with all of my automated skills, although I tend to pay less attention to the really basic stuff. I am aware my legs are moving though. So, to answer your question: I haven't a clue aside from what Eric Griggs once told me: "You just need to be the observer"... Still really trying to get a grasp on that one.

Part of my problem is that I take everything so literal. 



ron w said:


> exactly.
> when I was at Vegas, as a rank amateur shooting in a tournament that was way over my head as far as my capabilities were concerned.... I think I shot a Vegas face for about two or three weeks, in preparation of making my trip there. obviously nerves got the best of me as soon as that shoot beep sounded. after the first few shots, I realized I had to do something, I couldn't keep flailing arrows all over the place.
> the thought that came to mind, was that I needed to immerse myself in my execution,...."shoot my shots like was at practice at home".
> I started to think only about executing shots as well as I could, and within a few ends, I was completely at ease and putting the arrows where they should go, in relative terms. I ended up actually shooting a personal best Vegas score at the tournament.


I had a similar experience at the NFAA Nationals in 2009 in which I was one extra arrow short of a personal best for a 14T half round. I actually scored 272 after a penalty. I remember the feeling of just knowing that the arrows were going in the middle and they did. While I have this feeling off and on (mostly off) I have no idea how to "just do it"... as soon as my will to repeat comes in it goes away.


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## montigre (Oct 13, 2008)

EPLC said:


> I had a similar experience at the NFAA Nationals in 2009 in which I was one extra arrow short of a personal best for a 14T half round. I actually scored 272 after a penalty. I remember the feeling of just knowing that the arrows were going in the middle and they did. While I have this feeling off and on (mostly off) I have no idea how to "just do it"... as soon as my will to repeat comes in it goes away.


I had a similar experience at the 2012 NFAA Sectionals or Gold Cup. The hosting club had received a call that one of our Pro shooters would be arriving late and I offered to hold back and shoot with him so that he would have a "sanctioned" group. The first half went extremely well for me and arrows were almost magically hitting the center--- At the half, I suddenly realized that I had shot a 270, was well on my way to scoring a personal best in the 540s, and was only trailing the Pro by 3 points. WRONG MOVE!! Well, that thought process caused me to literally hemorrhage points on the 2nd half. I ended up with a disappointing mid 520 field score and while it was sufficient for a 2nd place finish at the end of the tournament, I had let a very good opportunity slip through my fingers. I was totally unable to recapture that groove for the 2nd half because I had completely lost my shot and rhythm. That was a very difficult lesson to learn.


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## ron w (Jan 5, 2013)

I've suggested previously that practice should be the hard part f competition. it is this that develops the "default" that we have to fall back on. one could almost consider that default a survival mode", given that most subconscious based core elements of action, are oriented around surviving difficult situations.


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## cbrunson (Oct 25, 2010)

I think there is a lot of false information sent to our brains when we miss a few shots and then settle in. The pressure to excel is gone, so we relax and shoot better, so we then think that we need to be relaxed and confident from the start. There may be a few exceptional shooters that can do that, but I think most people can't. Sure, I've had those days where I show up not expecting to win it and end up shooting very well because the pressure isn't there, but then I go to the next one thinking I'm going to win it, and there is noticebly more pressure. I think there's a big difference in your mind set when you know you can win it, if you get everything right.

Now thinking of it on those terms, the relaxed, just let it happen thing isn't happening.


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## Mahly (Dec 18, 2002)

Personally, I have had trouble separating the aiming from the firing. 
I'm usually all too aware that the hinge is moving. That led me to using a T handle release for a long time. On my better days, the aiming took most of my attention and once started, the release went off without any conscious input other than to start adding tension.
I did notice a starting/stopping on some days, and that led me back to a hinge.
Now I changed a LOT about how I fire the hinge. I'm very aware of movement, and I have been working on finding a way to fire the hinge without feeling any movement. When I feel movement, it's no longer subconscious.
I have found what I believe is a better way for me to shoot a hinge that prevents me from both feeling the hinge move, and stopping the engine if the aim isn't absolutely perfect (if there is a dip or something, I'll let up, but just natural float for me isn't always the exact center of the X).
This gives me the feeling of JUST aiming, and the release will take care of itself.

That said, I still don't completely agree with the whole "Your brain can only consciously do one thing at a time" thing. I don't feel it's that black or white, conscious or subconscious.
I look at it more like a pie chart. the more focus you give one task, the less there is for other tasks. I try to free up as much focus for aiming as I can.


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## TDS (Nov 26, 2008)

cbrunson said:


> It was more of a loaded question. I hear many shooters say they let the dot “float” and focus on the release. Others focus on aiming and let the release happen. Even fewer believe they meld the two into one subconscious action.
> 
> My question is – When you let one of those (or both) become a subconscious part of your shot routine, *how do you identify and fix issues when they arise*?


Own the feel of the process (sequence) ???


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## Lazarus (Sep 19, 2005)

cbrunson said:


> My question is – When you let one of those (or both) become a subconscious part of your shot routine, how do you identify and fix issues when they arise?


I think I have probably hammered this at other times on this forum. Let me say it different than I may have before. 

I believe the act of shooting (for a relatively high level shooter) is very near a state of hypnosis, (fully aware but you just don't care.) At the instant of release you are, BOOM, awakened from your hypnotic state and have recall of everything that just happened so it's easy to analyze what just went wrong because of this recall. During that state of hypnosis you had shut everything else out so you really only have just a few processes running, therefore it's easy to identify what went wrong. 

I know........using that example I've went slap off the deep end now haven't I? :teeth: 

By the way, I'm not just saying that to be provocative. I firmly believe what I just typed to be true. Flame away if you like.


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

cbrunson said:


> I think there is a lot of false information sent to our brains when we miss a few shots and then settle in. The pressure to excel is gone, so we relax and shoot better, so we then think that we need to be relaxed and confident from the start. There may be a few exceptional shooters that can do that, but I think most people can't. Sure, I've had those days where I show up not expecting to win it and end up shooting very well because the pressure isn't there, but then I go to the next one thinking I'm going to win it, and there is noticebly more pressure. I think there's a big difference in your mind set when you know you can win it, if you get everything right.
> 
> Now thinking of it on those terms, the relaxed, just let it happen thing isn't happening.


I'll give my two cents....

Regardless of event my primary goal is to have fun. I don't go to win. That's pressure you don't need. There is no real relaxed, just practice that gives the "comfortable" shot (relaxed as in 2nd nature) and the term, "let it happen."

Some have noted Pros changing things on the line, even changing releases. Are they? I'll bet they practiced with their primary release and back up release, just like whatever else they changed on the line. They "know" because they've learned, practiced it or practiced with it. They are not out there on the line jacking around with the unknown, not with big bucks up for grabs....

To let something happen....you don't force it is all. You practiced. Doesn't matter if back tension is the execution or manipulation of the release, you practiced, you let it happen. Anything outside of this is force and force offsets the practiced shot. 

Somewhere in the set up of the shot or shot itself you feel something not right...What to do? Let down. You don't think when shooting. Everything is in motion, but that little off then comes, fills the "blank" mind, interrupts the "set" mind and automatically comes, Whoa, Stop, Wait a minute. Force the shot and what happens? 

Me, ready to shoot, I tighten back that little extra that sets things in motion. Okay, I increase back tension. This is maintained. I don't keep adding back tension. Adding is forcing. Then it's just aiming and only aiming. So I'm waiting out the release...letting it fire, letting it happen.


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## ron w (Jan 5, 2013)

much of the notion of "let the shot happen by itself" takes for granted that the release execution is well engrained into the sub conscious process of administration.


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## EPLC (May 21, 2002)

montigre said:


> I had a similar experience at the 2012 NFAA Sectionals or Gold Cup. The hosting club had received a call that one of our Pro shooters would be arriving late and I offered to hold back and shoot with him so that he would have a "sanctioned" group. The first half went extremely well for me and arrows were almost magically hitting the center--- At the half, I suddenly realized that I had shot a 270, was well on my way to scoring a personal best in the 540s, and was only trailing the Pro by 3 points. WRONG MOVE!! Well, that thought process caused me to literally hemorrhage points on the 2nd half. I ended up with a disappointing mid 520 field score and while it was sufficient for a 2nd place finish at the end of the tournament, I had let a very good opportunity slip through my fingers. I was totally unable to recapture that groove for the 2nd half because I had completely lost my shot and rhythm. That was a very difficult lesson to learn.


Your experience and mine were even closer than you know. In the 2009 NFAA Field Nationals I shot with Larry Wise and Mark Irlbacher, who I was going arrow for arrow with the first half. Mark actually finished 2nd. On the 14th target I shot a fifth arrow and lost 2 points because of it as that extra arrow was a 4. After that I shot 262 the second half for a 534 and only 520 on the hunter. I shot a clean 566 on the animal but I'm capable of so much better. I finished a mathematical 24th out of about 80 shooters and want to do better this summer. If I knew how to capture that feeling at will I would be well on my way to that goal.


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## EPLC (May 21, 2002)

Lazarus said:


> I think I have probably hammered this at other times on this forum. Let me say it different than I may have before.
> 
> I believe the act of shooting (for a relatively high level shooter) is very near a state of hypnosis, (fully aware but you just don't care.) At the instant of release you are, BOOM, awakened from your hypnotic state and have recall of everything that just happened so it's easy to analyze what just went wrong because of this recall. During that state of hypnosis you had shut everything else out so you really only have just a few processes running, therefore it's easy to identify what went wrong.
> 
> ...


I have no way of knowing if this is true or not. What I do know is "something" happens in me on occasion that is somewhat similar. The difference in me is the recall part. As mentioned above I wish I could duplicate it at will.


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## cbrunson (Oct 25, 2010)

Lazarus said:


> I think I have probably hammered this at other times on this forum. Let me say it different than I may have before.
> 
> I believe the act of shooting (for a relatively high level shooter) is very near a state of hypnosis, (fully aware but you just don't care.) At the instant of release you are, BOOM, awakened from your hypnotic state and have recall of everything that just happened so it's easy to analyze what just went wrong because of this recall. During that state of hypnosis you had shut everything else out so you really only have just a few processes running, therefore it's easy to identify what went wrong.
> 
> ...


The audacity!!! :lol:

So you don't focus on either end, you just stare at the X and everything just happens? Does this always work? What do you you do when part of that magic isn't working correctly....... on game day?


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## cbrunson (Oct 25, 2010)

SonnyThomas said:


> I'll give my two cents....
> 
> Regardless of event my primary goal is to have fun. I don't go to win. That's pressure you don't need. There is no real relaxed, just practice that gives the "comfortable" shot (relaxed as in 2nd nature) and the term, "let it happen."
> 
> ...


So then, let's say you were younger, healthier, and if you could take your practice scores to Vegas, you'd be looking at taking home a $30,000 check. Would you think a little differently?


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## EPLC (May 21, 2002)

Mahly said:


> ...That said, I still don't completely agree with the whole "Your brain can only consciously do one thing at a time" thing. I don't feel it's that black or white, conscious or subconscious.
> I look at it more like a pie chart. the more focus you give one task, the less there is for other tasks. I try to free up as much focus for aiming as I can.


It may be possible you are confusing "awareness" with cognitive as it is only possible to have one cognitive thought at a time. I find that when something is being performed "automatically" I am very much aware of that activity... not in words, but in awareness. Cognitive activity requires instruction, and instruction requires words. You can not think two words simultaneously. Automated activity requires no instruction, and therefore no words. This doesn't remove the awareness of what is going on. Therefore, you can be thinking about your aiming and at the same time be aware of your execution. They are still being handled differently.


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## ron w (Jan 5, 2013)

really, ?...... try to talk about one thing and write about another at the same time, for more than just a few rehearsed words.. there was even a game show that was based on the fact that we cannot do two things consciously, at the same time.


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

cbrunson said:


> So then, let's say you were younger, healthier, and if you could take your practice scores to Vegas, you'd be looking at taking home a $30,000 check. Would you think a little differently?


Well, you didn't define what event, but those going to Vegas, the big boys and girls, have "been there done that" in a manner so the pressure is more sedate. Read up on a few top shooters, like Braden Gellenthien. He was "groomed," if you can understand what "groomed" is. Yeah, you just don't throw a prized student out among the big dogs....

Lord, I'd have to be a lot younger, a whole bunch younger. I was 50 years old when I got sticks and strings addicted. At that point in my life, 30 years of service at Caterpillar, Inc., I wasn't giving up $20 per hour and 5 years later $25 per hour when I retired. Yeah, I heard of the big $, but then only those at the top of the score sheets got/get the big $. Overtime abundant, I knocked down $2,750.00 in a week more than a few times. Yeah, I paid more in taxes than some made in a year, over $20,000.00. Retirement check, company free medical insurance for me and my wife for the rest of our lives, Social Security, Medicare now kicked in, all we have paid for. I sit home and still bring in as much or more than some make a year.


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## Mahly (Dec 18, 2002)

EPLC said:


> It may be possible you are confusing "awareness" with cognitive as it is only possible to have one cognitive thought at a time. I find that when something is being performed "automatically" I am very much aware of that activity... not in words, but in awareness. Cognitive activity requires instruction, and instruction requires words. You can not think two words simultaneously. Automated activity requires no instruction, and therefore no words. This doesn't remove the awareness of what is going on. Therefore, you can be thinking about your aiming and at the same time be aware of your execution. They are still being handled differently.


I guess it's in those definitions, Cognitively, Consciously, Guess I need more time with a dictionary LOL!
An interesting part you bring up " Cognitive activity requires instruction, and instruction requires words".
When I aim I don't think words, once my engine has started, I don't think words about it. 
When I put it all together, I guess I am just aware of all the aspects, but not cognitively telling them to do any one thing. 
The only time words come into my head is if it seems like it has been a long time since I started aiming, the thought of, "OK, let down" comes in.
I used to just think "X, X, X, X" until the shot went off to block out any un-needed thoughts (did I leave a cake in the oven? etc).
So not debating the ability to cognitively do more than 1 thing at a time, I know I can divide my focus between more than one thing.
I try to focus as much on aiming as I can (but have started working on variations of that) and do what I can to make the release subconscious.
Using different firing engines, I know the amount of focus I spend on aiming goes down slightly to manage the firing engine...or at least observe it.


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## stromdidilly (Jan 8, 2014)

ron w said:


> really, ?...... try to talk about one thing and write about another at the same time, for more than just a few rehearsed words.. there was even a game show that was based on the fact that we cannot do two things consciously, at the same time.


I multitask all the time...just ask my wife :thumbs_up


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## cbrunson (Oct 25, 2010)

SonnyThomas said:


> Well, you didn't define what event, but those going to Vegas, the big boys and girls, have "been there done that" in a manner so the pressure is more sedate. Read up on a few top shooters, like Braden Gellenthien. He was "groomed," if you can understand what "groomed" is. Yeah, you just don't throw a prized student out among the big dogs....


Not sure what that has to do with the question. ^^^^

I’ve shot with Braden. In Redding last year he took an equipment failure time out to go back to the practice range to shoot his three shots with his backup release because the one he was using didn’t feel right. How do you suppose he recognized the difference? 

FYI, when you shoot with these guys, you hear a lot.


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

Mahly said:


> I guess it's in those definitions, Cognitively, Consciously, Guess I need more time with a dictionary LOL!
> An interesting part you bring up " Cognitive activity requires instruction, and instruction requires words".
> When I aim I don't think words, once my engine has started, I don't think words about it.
> When I put it all together, I guess I am just aware of all the aspects, but not cognitively telling them to do any one thing.
> ...


Hey, you took lesson from the same guy I did. Yeah, everything is gear it's going and only aiming is to take place until the shot goes. Too long, something a miss, the brain's auto shut down engages. Force it and you've more than likely have a bad shot....


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

cbrunson said:


> So then, let's say you were younger, healthier, and if you could take your practice scores to Vegas, you'd be looking at taking home a $30,000 check. Would you think a little differently?





cbrunson said:


> Not sure what that has to do with the question. "Groomed" as in they've been on the line many times before, had their coaches right on top of them. Terry Wunderle is one of those coaches who has said as much... Pretty dang simple, you don't practice in "your back yard" and expect to shoot your best. If you do you're brick short of a full load....
> 
> I’ve shot with Braden. In Redding last year he took an equipment failure time out to go back to the practice range to shoot his three shots with his backup release because the one he was using didn’t feel right. How do you suppose he recognized the difference?
> 
> FYI, when you shoot with these guys, you hear a lot.


I was doing nothing but repeating much of what I heard and saw as for changing releases during a event. It was just said recently. "XXXX wanted more aggression or something of the effect" and his back up release required that.
I've been switching releases during 3Ds, mainly thumb and then hinge for picked shots.


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## PUGIDOGS (Mar 17, 2005)

For me I train to gain muscle memory, so when I make a shot it is the exact each time. My body knows when it is set up correctly and knows when it is NOT set up correctly. As for the shot execution, The only thing I am focused on is the X. Nothing else. I'm not thinking about form, float or what's in the oven, I try and be brain dead, if I let my brain to try and think it will mess up a good shot. This all stems from quality practice and training. Not sure what you guys would call this style, let the body do what it knows how to do, shut off brain. If brain is on, it will interfere with the muscle memory / body. Pugi


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## cbrunson (Oct 25, 2010)

SonnyThomas said:


> I saw as for changing releases during a event. It was just said recently. "XXXX wanted more aggression or something of the effect" and his back up release required that


:nono: 

That wasn't what happened.


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## EPLC (May 21, 2002)

cbrunson said:


> :nono:
> 
> That wasn't what happened.


I assume he was referring to Levi Morgan. A recent post said he switched to a slower release when his faster one wasn't going off to force more aggression.


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## cbrunson (Oct 25, 2010)

EPLC said:


> I assume he was referring to Levi Morgan. A recent post said he switched to a slower release when his faster one wasn't going off.


Ah..... I see. One of those "in from left field" moments.


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

EPLC said:


> I assume he was referring to Levi Morgan. A recent post said he switched to a slower release when his faster one wasn't going off to force more aggression.


Wasn't who I replied of, but yes, I heard something to the effect. Before I got a little...braver(?) I carried my ST360 four finger for a back up. Set heavy like my ST360 3 finger that fourth finger, pinky finger, gives a different firing.


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## EPLC (May 21, 2002)

Mahly said:


> I guess it's in those definitions, Cognitively, Consciously, Guess I need more time with a dictionary LOL!
> An interesting part you bring up " Cognitive activity requires instruction, and instruction requires words".
> When I aim I don't think words, once my engine has started, I don't think words about it.
> When I put it all together, I guess I am just aware of all the aspects, but not cognitively telling them to do any one thing.
> ...


It's not definition, it's just the way it is. Cognitive thought is a one step at a time process, although those steps can happen very rapidly. One a skill becomes automated it can go on simultaneously with other activity. Generally you would be aware of the activities going on but you are not thinking cognitively about the activity. Take driving a car. You are doing several activities at once, you are aware but not giving orders. In an emergency these things go on very rapidly... once again you are aware but operating in automatic mode. I remember one time in particular that this happened and the only cognitive thought was "Oh S$%"... 



ron w said:


> really, ?...... try to talk about one thing and write about another at the same time, for more than just a few rehearsed words.. there was even a game show that was based on the fact that we cannot do two things consciously, at the same time.


Ron and I seem to agree... not an automatic activity


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## EPLC (May 21, 2002)

PUGIDOGS said:


> For me I train to gain muscle memory, so when I make a shot it is the exact each time. My body knows when it is set up correctly and knows when it is NOT set up correctly. As for the shot execution, The only thing I am focused on is the X. Nothing else. I'm not thinking about form, float or what's in the oven, I try and be brain dead, if I let my brain to try and think it will mess up a good shot. This all stems from quality practice and training. Not sure what you guys would call this style, let the body do what it knows how to do, shut off brain. If brain is on, it will interfere with the muscle memory / body. Pugi


Turning off the cognitive thought process, for me, is next to impossible. It needs something to do. This is the idea that drives having a step by step shot process or checklist.


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## cbrunson (Oct 25, 2010)

EPLC said:


> Ron and I seem to agree... not an automatic activity


As do I.



EPLC said:


> Turning off the cognitive thought process, for me, is next to impossible. It needs something to do. This is the idea that drives having a step by step shot process or checklist.


Same here. I make mistakes when I try to just let it happen. I may still shoot very high scores, but not as good as when I stay focused.

I've also found that shutting off your brain in competition is nearly impossible to do. That is if you are trying to win rather than just participate. I think giving it something specific to do, and following that strictly is the only way for me to stay focused when it means the most.


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## montigre (Oct 13, 2008)

EPLC said:


> Your experience and mine were even closer than you know. In the 2009 NFAA Field Nationals I shot with Larry Wise and Mark Irlbacher, who I was going arrow for arrow with the first half. Mark actually finished 2nd. On the 14th target I shot a fifth arrow and lost 2 points because of it as that extra arrow was a 4. After that I shot 262 the second half for a 534 and only 520 on the hunter. I shot a clean 566 on the animal but I'm capable of so much better. I finished a mathematical 24th out of about 80 shooters and want to do better this summer. If I knew how to capture that feeling at will I would be well on my way to that goal.


Sorry for the late reply, but I teach the soldiers on Thursday afternoons.... 

Wow, the similarities are so close it is rather unsettling.... You're right, I believe knowing how to duplicate that almost mindless shot process would be a huge boon when you find yourself in situations such as these. I have since taught myself to block out active scoring until the end of the tournament, but being able to find the groove, once lost, still evades me. I too hope to better my last Nationals showing and I feel finding that ability to knowingly turn it on when needed may be an important key to that end.

Perhaps we should meet up at M-berg this year and raise a cold one.


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## EPLC (May 21, 2002)

montigre said:


> Sorry for the late reply, but I teach the soldiers on Thursday afternoons....
> 
> Wow, the similarities are so close it is rather unsettling.... You're right, I believe knowing how to duplicate that almost mindless shot process would be a huge boon when you find yourself in situations such as these. I have since taught myself to block out active scoring until the end of the tournament, but being able to find the groove, once lost, still evades me. I too hope to better my last Nationals showing and I feel finding that ability to knowingly turn it on when needed may be an important key to that end.
> 
> Perhaps we should meet up at M-berg this year and raise a cold one.


I'll look forward to meeting you... and BTW, I did beat Larry that year... only because I had a head start on switching to lefty on him. He's a fun guy. In 2012 I had a similar experience shooting 572 in the animal round put me in group 2 for the hunter round. I shot with Frank Person that day but the results were not as good as with Larry. I did finish a mathematical 18th though.


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## montigre (Oct 13, 2008)

EPLC said:


> I'll look forward to meeting you... and BTW, I did beat Larry that year... only because I had a head start on switching to lefty on him. He's a fun guy. In 2012 I had a similar experience shooting 572 in the animal round put me in group 2 for the hunter round. I shot with Frank Person that day but the results were not as good as with Larry. I did finish a mathematical 18th though.


Good for you!! Larry W is a hoot--took my level 3 with him year before last and often run into him when I'm at LAS. 

I shot with Becky Pearson at the 2012 Nationals and met with she and Frank for lunch with a couple other shooting friends while we were there. Very fun people they are--Frank had me in stitches!! That's the year I competed with a blown bow shoulder--would shoot one day and drive home for an injection from my ortho so I could shoot the following day (not fun). Thank goodness for the 5/3 format!! Ended up a respectable 8th, but I know I can do better and that's my goal for this year.


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## PUGIDOGS (Mar 17, 2005)

EPLC said:


> Turning off the cognitive thought process, for me, is next to impossible. It needs something to do. This is the idea that drives having a step by step shot process or checklist.


I sometimes have that problem as well, I give it something simple to do so it wont start thinking about other things. It needs to be something that comes second nature and you can do without thought. For me I count....1,2,3,4,5.........and so on. Pugi


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## EPLC (May 21, 2002)

PUGIDOGS said:


> I sometimes have that problem as well, I give it something simple to do so it wont start thinking about other things. It needs to be something that comes second nature and you can do without thought. For me I count....1,2,3,4,5.........and so on. Pugi


Never tried that one, thanks.


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## nochance (Nov 27, 2008)

EPLC said:


> Ron and I seem to agree... not an automatic activity


But rarely ever at the same time


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## EPLC (May 21, 2002)

Mahly said:


> I guess it's in those definitions, Cognitively, Consciously, Guess I need more time with a dictionary LOL!
> An interesting part you bring up " Cognitive activity requires instruction, and instruction requires words".
> When I aim I don't think words, once my engine has started, I don't think words about it.
> When I put it all together, I guess I am just aware of all the aspects, but not cognitively telling them to do any one thing.
> ...


Sounds like your shot is pretty well automated.


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## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

Being a 3d shooter I want my shot to be solid on tournament day so that I can use my binos to find the 12 ring and then find a marker and then make the shot, during the tournament I don't want to be in damage control mode because something isn't working correctly because it makes it impossible to aim and manage that issue. 

For me I put together a solid shot by focusing on each area specifically and I totally consciously do each of them, I have found that by consciously doing each one of my systems that it gives a specific process that is well defined to that system and then when I am shooting the tournament and I am focusing on the 12 ring my shot does a very good job of execution.

My systems that I consciously work on are:

1.Firing the hinge

2. Grip and Follow through 

3. Anchor and nose touching the string with peep lined up perfectly

4. Rear arm and back tension preload

5. Float on the 12 ring.

These are the many systems that I spend many hours consciously working on and learning how they act and react, when I am working on one of the systems the other systems are totally on their own to do their job without me paying attention to them because I am totally committed to the one that I am working on at that moment.

One thing that is really cool is flipping the switch from one system to another system because I can feel the difference that it makes to let a system run itself without micro managing it and usually when I have spent 10 minutes or so on one system and then flip to another system I can feel the transition from conscious to subconscious happening and this is something that more people need to experience. I think to many people hear that things need to be subconscious all the time so they never allow themselves feel or control things, feeling and controling something can do more than one good thing but one of them is learning to enjoy the benefits of subconscious systems. 

I have mentioned that I have had a really enjoyable winter of shooting and really for the most part it hasn't been a accuracy thing, it has been more of a relaxed and solid feeling of my shooting in general where things are just doing their job without me micro managing them and trying to multitask my shot. I have had a general goal of becoming a Spectator Shooter ever since I wrote the article and posted it here on archery talk, it is what allows me to observe what is happening during my shooting and coach myself as my day progresses if needed or just continue to rattle off good shots because I am not totally engrossed by trying to control something. I am just allowing my systems that I have worked on do their job and I am getting to see my arrow fly to the target through my scope.


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## ron w (Jan 5, 2013)

i'm not all the sure that one guy being a 3d shooter and the other guy being a target shooter, makes all that much difference. the shot still has to made as good as possible, and the fundamentals of the shot are still the same and have the same elementary importance to the outcome.


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## cbrunson (Oct 25, 2010)

ron w said:


> i'm not all the sure that one guy being a 3d shooter and the other guy being a target shooter, makes all that much difference. the shot still has to made as good as possible, and the fundamentals of the shot are still the same and have the same elementary importance to the outcome.


Yep. Makes no difference regarding the shot. I'd also venture to guess that if one of the many Padgett firing engines isn't performing well on that day, he will do some damage control and change it up. He's noted doing that many times in the past.


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## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

There was a nice thought being covered in my post if you actually read it.


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## cbrunson (Oct 25, 2010)

Padgett said:


> There was a nice thought being covered in my post if you actually read it.


There was. The part where you were talking about being able to switch your focus to different elements of your shot was very good. It would help with being able to troubleshoot and correct issues without stopping the shot. This is exactly the kind of thing that will help you on game day if something isn't working right, or just feels different. The only thing I would do different, is trying to let the subconscious take over. I like to think every shot through to the moment it breaks. When I don't, I get lazy on something and usually let a bad one go. Just a preference thing on that one I suppose, but I never shoot a bad shot when I focus from front to back all the way through.


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## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

For me when I shoot indoor it is so much easier to manage my entire shot and focus on something simple such as following through into the x and then I can do what I call Spectator Shooting where my brain is focused on following through into the x but at the same time it is doing a system check from head to toe and if anything starts acting weird I can let down. 

Some of my best shooting ever is when I let go of everything and I just get into a rythm and shoot without any worries and I may go a couple hundred shots without one thing happening and every shot is a x but what I have found is that this kind of shooting allows all of my problem sensors to be ignored and when I do have something start to go wrong the release fires before I even realize it.

When I am shooting scoring rounds I much prefer to give my focus to something such as following throught into the x or my firing engine, by giving my focus to one of the areas of my shot it turns on my problem sensors through out my body and I can let down way before a poor shot fires. This is when I shoot my best and 100% of my shots are executed to my highest level.

Now, can I do this when I am on the line with other shooters when I am trying to win a tournament? NO, to this day have just enough trouble with my nerves that until I settle down I will drop a x or so. For me this is the next step of my personal shooting that I need to work on. This weekend in Fort Benning asa I shot my first 4 targets of the weekend with some nerves and I did a really good job of letting down a few times and executing really nice shots and staying in the 10 ring, after the 4th shot my heart settled down for the rest of the weekend and I shot just like I was in my back yard.


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