# And so it continues with the V3



## roosterstraw (Dec 9, 2015)

Shooter Mike said:


> I'm lost though. Was clean through paper the last day I shot the bow. It broadhead tuned with two small left clicks of the rest. Now it's nock low again


If it was good one day and not the next without changing anything on the bow or arrow, I would think it would be you. Once you’re good through paper, then broadhead tune you won’t always be perfect through paper again after making changes.


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## Shooter Mike (Oct 27, 2002)

roosterstraw said:


> If it was good one day and not the next without changing anything on the bow or arrow, I would think it would be you. Once you’re good through paper, then broadhead tune you won’t always be perfect through paper again after making changes.


Yeah, I would agree with that; however, given what I've gone through with this bow, I'm hypersensitive to doing things just right. I put lots of shots through paper with it last night to ensure it wasn't me. The pic above is just one snapshot.


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## monkeywrench (Sep 24, 2015)

Paper tuning is just the starting point, if it's shooting broadheads good, don't shoot it through paper, you'll drive yourself crazy.


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## LIBowhunter (Sep 29, 2007)

Did you Check for nock pinch?


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## Huntinsker (Feb 9, 2012)

What have you done to your cam timing? Have you just been moving the rest around or have you adjusted nock point and cam timing to try and clear up the vertical nock travel also? Have you verified that you're not getting fletching contact? Could possibly have a false reading and are getting some fletching contact on the rest and then it's bouncing low coming out of the bow. Put some lipstick on the edge of the vanes and shoot a couple times to verify.


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## Shooter Mike (Oct 27, 2002)

monkeywrench said:


> Paper tuning is just the starting point, if it's shooting broadheads good, don't shoot it through paper, you'll drive yourself crazy.


Yeah I get that. Didn't have a nock low tear after adjusting the draw weight. Didn't make any adjustments that would cause a nock low tear. Only 0.0038 to the left.


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## Shooter Mike (Oct 27, 2002)

Huntinsker said:


> What have you done to your cam timing? Have you just been moving the rest around or have you adjusted nock point and cam timing to try and clear up the vertical nock travel also? Have you verified that you're not getting fletching contact? Could possibly have a false reading and are getting some fletching contact on the rest and then it's bouncing low coming out of the bow. Put some lipstick on the edge of the vanes and shoot a couple times to verify.


timing is spot on at brace and at full draw on the board. This bow continues to give nock low with three different arrows between 56 and 66lbs of draw weight. Lipstick on the vanes won't help with bare shafts. And it were a vane contact issues, I'd see left and right. There is ample clearance from the top of the vane to the top of the cage on the rest.


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## trapperm (Feb 12, 2020)

I went through your other thread and 2 things seem to show a pattern.

Your fletched shafts and bareshafts in the pictures show different information which given all things equal, shouldn’t.

You also haven’t isolated the rest as being a non issue. Maybe it’s giving you inconsistent timing, or bounce back or something that isn’t readily observable.


I fought hard with my V3 initially. Hamskea, and axis 340. Around and around and around with a bare shaft. I put it on the draw board and timed the cable stops to within 1/16” of each other and it helped but wasn’t a complete fix. I would get 5-6 shots that were good, a couple that were bad, good, bad and so on. Ended up being a combination of things- the cam sync, some fletching contact (later on), and most of all my darn grip. I had a hard time accepting the last one but since admission of guilt I’ve moved on and now the thing shoots like a dream.


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## Shooter Mike (Oct 27, 2002)

trapperm said:


> I went through your other thread and 2 things seem to show a pattern.
> 
> Your fletched shafts and bareshafts in the pictures show different information which given all things equal, shouldn’t.
> 
> ...


This problem is present with two different rests - a Hamskea and an Integrate. It's present with three completely different arrows. I use a high grip, with no palm pressure. I can shoot my Triax and get bare shaft bullet holes. Pick up the V3 and nock low tears. I'm confident this isn't a form / grip issue.


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## trapperm (Feb 12, 2020)

Shooter Mike said:


> This problem is present with two different rests - a Hamskea and an Integrate. It's present with three completely different arrows. I use a high grip, with no palm pressure. I can shoot my Triax and get bare shaft bullet holes. Pick up the V3 and nock low tears. I'm confident this isn't a form / grip issue.


I must have missed the rest isolation.

You mentioned timing but to be clear you’re referring to the synchronization, correct?

If there’s no damage to cams and both limb bolts are equal it might be worth while to have someone else shoot it. I have a halon that requires a fair bit different grip from me to shoot well. Probably isn’t you but it’s about the only variable that’s not been tested.


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## Shooter Mike (Oct 27, 2002)

The lighter the arrow, the smaller the tear. Spine still being appropriate that is. But, the problem doesn't surface on my Triax. My triax is set at 60lbs and shoots a 335gr arrow. A heavier and stiffer arrow no change. In the V3, a 335gr is okay through the bow. The heavier the arrow, the bigger the problem, until it's countered with overly stiff spine/weight. This seems to me to be a dynamic component issue- something that moves, and as resistance increases so does the friction in that component.


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## Shooter Mike (Oct 27, 2002)

trapperm said:


> I must have missed the rest isolation.
> 
> You mentioned timing but to be clear you’re referring to the synchronization, correct?
> 
> If there’s no damage to cams and both limb bolts are equal it might be worth while to have someone else shoot it. I have a halon that requires a fair bit different grip from me to shoot well. Probably isn’t you but it’s about the only variable that’s not been tested.


 For timing, I've checked and measured cam position at brace and full draw. I've checked nock pinch at full draw. 

Here's the thing though. Last Thursday when I dropped the draw weight to 56 it shot bullet holes. Took it to the range and broadhead tuned in two left clicks of the rest. Last night. Nock low tear again, and not just a negligible one.


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## Shooter Mike (Oct 27, 2002)

This bow was purchased new from my local shop. Has been an issue since it's first attempt to get it tuned, when all the parts finally came in.


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## trapperm (Feb 12, 2020)

Shooter Mike said:


> For timing, I've checked and measured cam position at brace and full draw. I've checked nock pinch at full draw.
> 
> Here's the thing though. Last Thursday when I dropped the draw weight to 56 it shot bullet holes. Took it to the range and broadhead tuned in two left clicks of the rest. Last night. Nock low tear again, and not just a negligible one.


Given validity in all of this so far it sounds like you’ve got 2 things left to check before getting in the weeds.

1.) Some resistance in the cams as you implied there may have been some damage to an axle (bearing, axle etc.). Would make sense to take the strings/cables off and examine it. Issues are usually pretty obvious.

2.) You, I agree that with your repeatable data that it doesn’t seem likely, but why not rule it out. It’s one of the easiest.


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## Shooter Mike (Oct 27, 2002)

trapperm said:


> Given validity in all of this so far it sounds like you’ve got 2 things left to check before getting in the weeds.
> 
> 1.) Some resistance in the cams as you implied there may have been some damage to an axle (bearing, axle etc.). Would make sense to take the strings/cables off and examine it. Issues are usually pretty obvious.
> 
> 2.) You, I agree that with your repeatable data that it doesn’t seem likely, but why not rule it out. It’s one of the easiest.


Would you agree that I have eliminated "me" from the equation if I can shoot my triax without tear issues, but the v3 I cannot?

These are those times I wish I did build a shooting a machine. Every time I see DIY builds for them, I think to myself, I don't need it. And here I sit, now ... needing it.


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## fatboy111 (Mar 5, 2003)

Just tuned a V3 with similar problem. Top cam hit the stops just ahead of the bottom. I put a half twist in top cam and a bullet hole. If pressed, spin the cam...if there's a rough spot it will show up. I've had no issues tuning the V3's and I sell a lot of them. Good luck and keep us posted.


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## trapperm (Feb 12, 2020)

Shooter Mike said:


> Would you agree that I have eliminated "me" from the equation if I can shoot my triax without tear issues, but the v3 I cannot?
> 
> These are those times I wish I did build a shooting a machine. Every time I see DIY builds for them, I think to myself, I don't need it. And here I sit, now ... needing it.


I think logic would say yes- if you can shoot that fine that you should be ok. But…

My personal experience with a Halon and this V3 encourage me to continue pestering you about it.

I shot spots at winter league with the halon in bow hunter class. Was consistently shooting 300s with it. In comes the V3- applied same grip, same anchor etc. it was different enough that I was experiencing similar troubles as you.


If no one else is available, you could experiment with a lower wrist, more/less open hand, etc just to get a feel regarding the level of influence your grip has. No face pressure when paper tuning is another thing I make sure to check each time.


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## Shooter Mike (Oct 27, 2002)

fatboy111 said:


> Just tuned a V3 with similar problem. Top cam hit the stops just ahead of the bottom. I put a half twist in top cam and a bullet hole. If pressed, spin the cam...if there's a rough spot it will show up. I've had no issues tuning the V3's and I sell a lot of them. Good luck and keep us posted.


I'm surely hoping that whatever it is is unquestionably apparent when I inspect the cam bearings. Otherwise this bow may find a resting place in the bottom of the Mattaponi River.


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## 620 FPS (Aug 10, 2020)

Shooter Mike said:


> Would you agree that I have eliminated "me" from the equation


Nope. It seems no matter what youre gonna over think it. 

I think you know the problem but arent at that point of dealing with it.


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## Shooter Mike (Oct 27, 2002)

620 FPS said:


> Nope. It seems no matter what youre gonna over think it.
> 
> I think you know the problem but arent at that point of dealing with it.


Ok. Explain. No issues with the Triax but issues with the V3. Side by side shooting. 


Semper Fi,
Mike


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## Whalerbow (Apr 23, 2020)

have you made sure the plastic yokes are level and not slanted? I've heard this can cause tuning issues if they are leaning one way or another.


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## Shooter Mike (Oct 27, 2002)

Whalerbow said:


> have you made sure the plastic yokes are level and not slanted? I've heard this can cause tuning issues if they are leaning one way or another.


Actually, no I haven't. I will check that though.


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## smau990 (Feb 13, 2021)

Shooter Mike said:


> I'm surely hoping that whatever it is is unquestionably apparent when I inspect the cam bearings. Otherwise this bow may find a resting place in the bottom of the Mattaponi River.


Make sure your axle bolts are not too tight. This is pure design idiotism from Mathews but if you tighten the axle enough not to lose a screw you pinch the bearing and will have something that looks like timing issue on paper but not in draw board. Also check bearings for rough spots.

I'd try to low wrist grip just to see how much it changes things. Probably not as much as the tear in the paper even.


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## mathewgold (Mar 12, 2021)

I would raise or lower the arrowrest to clean up that tear, and keep an ear out for any noise just as you reach fulldraw that would indicate bad bearings. Just an adjustment of the rest should get you back on track.


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## Huntinsker (Feb 9, 2012)

Shooter Mike said:


> timing is spot on at brace and at full draw on the board. This bow continues to give nock low with three different arrows between 56 and 66lbs of draw weight. Lipstick on the vanes won't help with bare shafts. And it were a vane contact issues, I'd see left and right. There is ample clearance from the top of the vane to the top of the cage on the rest.


Lipstick on the vanes may help with a bareshaft because it doesn't just have to be the vanes that hit a rest. If it's bad enough, you can hit with the nock or with part of the shaft too. Also if it's hitting the containment bar straight above, there's no reason that you'd automatically have left/right issues. 

Timing being "perfect" on a draw board doesn't mean it's correct or that it's perfect when it's in your hands. Draw boards don't hold the bow when you shoot so unless your hand and the draw board impart exactly the same pressure on the grip, you may need to adjust cam timing to address the nock travel.

After tuning hundreds of bows and working on thousands, I can tell you that contact isn't always so easily diagnose and it's not always going to give expected results. I can also tell you that timing on a draw board is a staring point only and it rarely is perfect on the board and perfect in the hand.


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## Huntinsker (Feb 9, 2012)

Shooter Mike said:


> Would you agree that I have eliminated "me" from the equation if I can shoot my triax without tear issues, but the v3 I cannot?
> 
> These are those times I wish I did build a shooting a machine. Every time I see DIY builds for them, I think to myself, I don't need it. And here I sit, now ... needing it.


They're similar but different. The placement of the roller guard is lower on the v3 and the limbs are more preloaded. Those things alone will cause differences in cam timing at full draw. Grips are a different design also so unless you've switched them out to the same grip, that'll make a difference too.


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## Konasteve (Nov 12, 2019)

I was all over the place with my 38. Until I decided to check my tools and found this


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## Shooter Mike (Oct 27, 2002)

Huntinsker said:


> They're similar but different. The placement of the roller guard is lower on the v3 and the limbs are more preloaded. Those things alone will cause differences in cam timing at full draw. Grips are a different design also so unless you've switched them out to the same grip, that'll make a difference too.


Thanks. Yeah, side plates on the V3 and a shrewd grip on the triax. Both very similar. After all these years, I think I'm pretty consistent in my shot execution and fundamentals.
I don't think amount of tear would be affected by arrow weight if this were a shot execution/grip issue. And I would likely see more left/right issues than purely nock low. And doing this all with the Triax doesn't yield the same results. Sure, it could be "me", but the probability is lower than it being something else. 

I'm on shift until tomorrow night. When I get home tomorrow I'm going to pull the cams and inspect. If that doesn't yield any improvement, following someone else's advice and recommendation, I'm going to swap top limbs for bottom limbs and see if the problem changes. 

If none of those thinks fix the problem, we'll see if this bow can float in a river ...


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## Shooter Mike (Oct 27, 2002)

mathewgold said:


> I would raise or lower the arrowrest to clean up that tear, and keep an ear out for any noise just as you reach fulldraw that would indicate bad bearings. Just an adjustment of the rest should get you back on track.


If you go back and re-read the initial post and then follow the link to the thread that in the first post, you'll see this is much more involved than adjusting the rest.


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## Shooter Mike (Oct 27, 2002)

Huntinsker said:


> Lipstick on the vanes may help with a bareshaft because it doesn't just have to be the vanes that hit a rest. If it's bad enough, you can hit with the nock or with part of the shaft too. Also if it's hitting the containment bar straight above, there's no reason that you'd automatically have left/right issues.
> 
> Timing being "perfect" on a draw board doesn't mean it's correct or that it's perfect when it's in your hands. Draw boards don't hold the bow when you shoot so unless your hand and the draw board impart exactly the same pressure on the grip, you may need to adjust cam timing to address the nock travel.
> 
> After tuning hundreds of bows and working on thousands, I can tell you that contact isn't always so easily diagnose and it's not always going to give expected results. I can also tell you that timing on a draw board is a staring point only and it rarely is perfect on the board and perfect in the hand.


I hear ya about contact, but to that point, countless times we've started from scratch on the setup of this bow. We started with the Hamskea rest and still have the same results with the Integrate. If it were in fact contact due to setup, I think that might have been eliminated in one of the many start-from-scratch attempts, and four different arrows. A tapered FMJ T64, a 4.2mm Nexxus, a 6mm Hexx, and a 6.45mm Airstrike. All at various lengths and weight configurations during this process.


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## JeffB (Sep 10, 2002)

IDK if it has been mentioned, but I think you need to look at your nocks and nock pinch.


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## Shooter Mike (Oct 27, 2002)

JeffB said:


> IDK if it has been mentioned, but I think you need to look at your nocks and nock pinch.


Thanks. Yeah, covered that one early on, in the other thread. FWIW, there was pinch, but when corrected/improved, it didn't change anything for this situation.


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## JeffB (Sep 10, 2002)

Shooter Mike said:


> Thanks. Yeah, covered that one early on, in the other thread. FWIW, there was pinch, but when corrected/improved, it didn't change anything for this situation.


Gotcha. Just to throw this out- have you tried different nocks? Not new ones of the same type, but different ones?

I've had similar issue before with Goldtip nocks.


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## Shooter Mike (Oct 27, 2002)

JeffB said:


> Gotcha. Just to throw this out- have you tried different nocks? Not new ones of the same type, but different ones?
> 
> I've had similar issue before with Goldtip nocks.


Yeah, different arrows, different nocks. Different draw weights. Different arrow weights. Heavier arrows yield smaller vertical tear. 


Semper Fi,
Mike


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## mathewgold (Mar 12, 2021)

Is the bow registered to you? I had a fairly similar case on my V3-27, after swapping top hats and several integrate rests mine turned out to be frozen and disintegrated bearings. They were dragging the cam causing some good shots then the tear would reappear. Mathews shipped out two complete cams and with the new bearings mine is finally fixed. It might be your case too, but you have to remove the cams to check, good luck!


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## Shooter Mike (Oct 27, 2002)

mathewgold said:


> Is the bow registered to you? I had a fairly similar case on my V3-27, after swapping top hats and several integrate rests mine turned out to be frozen and disintegrated bearings. They were dragging the cam causing some good shots then the tear would reappear. Mathews shipped out two complete cams and with the new bearings mine is finally fixed. It might be your case too, but you have to remove the cams to check, good luck!


It is. New off the rack in August. Finally got it all put together in October after the rest of the gear came in off back order. Been chasing this issue since then. 

And thanks for sharing your experience with this. It’s re-affirming that I’m not
losing my mind or chasing my tail. 


Semper Fi,
Mike


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## trapperm (Feb 12, 2020)

Shooter Mike said:


> It is. New off the rack in August. Finally got it all put together in October after the rest of the gear came in off back order. Been chasing this issue since then.
> 
> And thanks for sharing your experience with this. It’s re-affirming that I’m not
> losing my mind or chasing my tail.
> ...


im patiently waiting the resolve to your situation.


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## KauaiWai (Dec 9, 2021)

Im in sort of the same situation you are in V327 27.5 70#. Tryed to tune axis 340s 75gr brass 100gr heads could not get the nock low out of it. Cut arrow 3-4 inches past riser and slowly cut nock end all the way in, no matter what length i still got low tears. I checked everything in both of your treads that was mentioned also. Thought i got it figured out when i went to 400s same brass and heads and got bullet holes till i fletched a couple arrows and shot them through paper and got a pretty bad nock low tear but BS still bullet holes. Unfortunately my stan perfex broke during this process so im still waiting to get it back from repair to tinker more with it.


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## KauaiWai (Dec 9, 2021)

Another thing worth looking over is try and see if your centerguard bolt got loose. Mine was loose and started to turn the centerguard counter clockwise (RH bow) putting more pressure on the right side cable. Only found this out cause it started to chew up the serving on that cable.


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## trapperm (Feb 12, 2020)

KauaiWai said:


> Im in sort of the same situation you are in V327 27.5 70#. Tryed to tune axis 340s 75gr brass 100gr heads could not get the nock low out of it. Cut arrow 3-4 inches past riser and slowly cut nock end all the way in, no matter what length i still got low tears. I checked everything in both of your treads that was mentioned also. Thought i got it figured out when i went to 400s same brass and heads and got bullet holes till i fletched a couple arrows and shot them through paper and got a pretty bad nock low tear but BS still bullet holes. Unfortunately my stan perfex broke during this process so im still waiting to get it back from repair to tinker more with it.


Did you put your V3 on a draw board and really really look at the synchronization of your cable stops? You’ll see a reoccurring timing problem causing the same sort of issues

All else equal- you should have pretty similar tears
from BS to fletched. Has to be contact somewhere or otherwise some influence. If you get behind your bow and look, there is not a lot of clearance on that center guard roller. A lot of people end up having to turn their nock just a shade to clear it.


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## Shooter Mike (Oct 27, 2002)

KauaiWai said:


> Im in sort of the same situation you are in V327 27.5 70#. Tryed to tune axis 340s 75gr brass 100gr heads could not get the nock low out of it. Cut arrow 3-4 inches past riser and slowly cut nock end all the way in, no matter what length i still got low tears. I checked everything in both of your treads that was mentioned also. Thought i got it figured out when i went to 400s same brass and heads and got bullet holes till i fletched a couple arrows and shot them through paper and got a pretty bad nock low tear but BS still bullet holes. Unfortunately my stan perfex broke during this process so im still waiting to get it back from repair to tinker more with it.


*Problem solved for me.*​EDIT: (15 January)

I installed some Vapor Trail VTX strings and after ~200 shots, its still shooting bullet holes. 

Edit; (24 Januar)

Problem returned. V3 once again has a 1" nock low tear. I can pick up my V3x 29 and it shoots bullet holes. The V3 is nock low consistently. Swapped top limbs for bottom limbs and still no fix.


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## Shooter Mike (Oct 27, 2002)

Oh, and btw, after greasing the limb pockets, the bow was much quieter. Not that these modern bows are noisy anyway, but it was noticeably quieter. I think this will become part of my normal setup routine - disassembling and greasing limb pockets before anything else.


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## trapperm (Feb 12, 2020)

Shooter Mike said:


> *Problem solved for me.*​
> So last night I pulled the cams and inspected the bearings. Pulled the limbs, cleaned and greased the pockets. Put the bow back together and reset the ATA and timing. Cranked the limb bolts down. Bow was pulling 63lbs with 60lb mods. The center serving had some separation so I pulled it and re-served. Set the bow back to zero and still had a nock low tear. Backed the draw weight to 60 and still a tear.
> 
> Sitting here a few minutes ago, it dawned on my that maybe the string stop was the issue. That little rubber bumper is in contact with the string when the string is at brace. I loosened the set screws and pushed it forward in to the riser 1/16" to maybe 1/8" off the string. Clean holes through paper now with the 470gr Nexxus 350, with 200gr up front.
> ...


Glad to hear Mike. Thanks for taking us along on the journey.


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## Jrain904 (Dec 6, 2021)

My v3 27 has been ridiculous easy to tune. 27.5" draw anywhere from 58 to 63 lbs. 2 different arrows, 100 grain inserts, 125 grain tips, 250 spine. Maybe try some 250's?


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## KauaiWai (Dec 9, 2021)

trapperm said:


> Did you put your V3 on a draw board and really really look at the synchronization of your cable stops? You’ll see a reoccurring timing problem causing the same sort of issues
> 
> All else equal- you should have pretty similar tears
> from BS to fletched. Has to be contact somewhere or otherwise some influence. If you get behind your bow and look, there is not a lot of clearance on that center guard roller. A lot of people end up having to turn their nock just a shade to clear it.


Timing is spot on. Awesome you mentioned the contact. I checked it before and checked it again and it was very hard to catch but i did have just a slight bit of contact. Rotated the nock and it cleaned the tear right up. Thank you! Glad that the OP also got his figured out 🤙🏽


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## LIBowhunter (Sep 29, 2007)

Nice job and way to go sticking with it. Sometimes these bows can be finicky S.O.B.s. They can drive you nuts until you get it figured out.
Enjoy both of your new bows!!


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## Shooter Mike (Oct 27, 2002)

And to add ... when I went to re-sight in and check broadhead flight, it did not require any adjustment of the rest for the Annihilator broadheads. 

I spent some time yesterday afternoon shooting at 70yds with 3"groups, which for me is very good since I don't shoot as much as I used to in years past. But the results make me want to shoot some more distance though.


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## Tr4dHunt3r0420 (Nov 4, 2021)

I know this is kinda an old thread but I'm curious if you are bare shaft testing these arrows. I ask because looking at your paper it looks like your not... also are you shooting just one arrow or are you shooting multiple at once. You may have one or more arrows that have an issue and/ or the one that convinced you everything was good is off.


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## Shooter Mike (Oct 27, 2002)

multiple arrows. bare shafts. you're likely looking at the paper from another contributor in this thread.


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## skyfireblaze (Dec 30, 2021)

Thanks Mike! I can tell from reading these threads what a frustration this experience was, but thanks for sharing. I learned a ton reading through it all!


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