# My Shot execution and some questions..



## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

Overall just reading your post it seems like you enjoy being a hinge shooter, my suggestion is for you to slow down and be a little more patient with your goals. You really need to earn the right to narrow down your shot timing to the point where you know when it is going to fire. When you have mastered hinge shooting and are at your best level it is totally ok to refine things so that you are really precise about when it fires. Right now you are not there yet.

I can tell that you are commanding your shooting because you are overly concerned with aiming in your descriptions of how you are executing. That needs to stop for right now and you need to learn to be a execution based shooter. You can watch your pin float but you should not allow yourself to pause or increase tension to try and match the firing of the hinge to the sight pin and what it is doing. Simply execute smooth shots and allow the pin to float. You can shoot at a very nice level during this time and then once you have mastered your execution you can move on to narrowing down the shot.


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## cbrunson (Oct 25, 2010)

Stop getting hung up on the talk of “proper execution”. It just needs to be smooth and somewhat effortless. Some of the top pros will admit to commanding the shot. Too many people confuse that with punching the release. It’s not the same thing. You shoot enough, you are going to know when it is going to go. 

If you shoot a 296-15x average, you are hitting the spot that makes the shootoff in Vegas 26 out of 30 times, and hitting a dime with half of them. You don’t change the 26 good shots to fix four bad ones. Pay attention to what is causing the four bad ones and fix that.


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## Bobmuley (Jan 14, 2004)

To put Padgett's post graphically; keep in mind that the horizontal axis are relative time and not necessarily a "clock". 

"Proper" back tension is always incremental in that it is ever increasing. The orange line is back tension and the blue line is relative pin position to the middle over time.








Over time, you'll learn that the pin steadies itself with repetition. I'm not saying that you'll turn into Chance Beaubeof, but given your setup and abilities you'll "calm down" on your pin movement. You may have experienced this before and you'll get a sense of rhythm in your shot. You're not anticipating the shot, but you know it's gonna fire smoothly.


Now if you're a stop-n-go kinda back tension shooter it'd look something like this. 









With this, the relative pin position is driving the back tension intensity. The biggest problem with this "method" is that often the release can fire once tension is "reactivated" coming out of the valleys and/or as tension is decreased the pin drifts further away from the intended target resulting in less tension, resulting in more distance, and on into a vicious circle. There is no sense of rhythm and while its not an anticipated release you're actually *hoping that it goes off at certain times and not others*. That in itself leads to a whole other set of problems...


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## Xwind (Nov 7, 2017)

Wow thanks guys ! Thats valuable info and very appreciated !

I very like the graph !

Now here's what I fell i'm doing...and it's just my feeling..probably not reality
I made a graph of a good shot and a bad shot..

Vertical is the amount of tension
Horizontal is timeframe
Blue is aiming (the higher the better)
Orange is tension.
Green is the tension needed to break
The shot breaks when orange meets green...







View attachment 6371393


I feel like i'm not really pausing or decreasing the tension but increasing the tension with more or less "intensity"

For exemple, from the time I start my execution, the shot can break somewhere between 3 and 5 sec. If in that window my aiming is off..there is great chances that the shot will break at the 5sec mark with a bad shot.... And if it goes over without breaking, this it means I stopped or even decreased my tension and the probability of a good shot goes down...

From what I understand is if I steadily increase the tension with the same intensity, all the shots made this way will break at the same time ? So I need to be steady and in the middle when the shot will break..?


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## Bobmuley (Jan 14, 2004)

Xwind said:


> I feel like i'm not really pausing or decreasing the tension but increasing the tension with more or less "intensity"?


That's good. The rate of increase is up to the shooter (too slow can take you out of your optimal aiming zone ; too fast can start to be more of a back-tension punch).





Xwind said:


> From what I understand is if I steadily increase the tension with the same intensity, all the shots made this way will break at the same time? So I need to be steady and in the middle when the shot will break..?


Bingo.



I'd like to apologize for writing "proper back tension" above. I meant that in the "classic" sense of using back tension to fire the release. There's getting to be more and more release manipulators, and they're doing well. I don't believe that they don't have "back tension" or that hinge-release manipulation, thumb buttons, or even index-finger release exclude the use of "back tension". They can work quite well together. 

If you want an example of non-back tension watch Dominique Genet. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pfTqKSGYjgE Really static shot...and did very well with it.


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## Xwind (Nov 7, 2017)

Thanx !
I'll work on getting more steady in my pressure incrase.

Thanx for all your inputs !


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## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

I have had the luxury of over two months of indoor shooting with no competition, I just go in after work every day and shoot for a hour or so. With no competition I don't feel the stress to commit to one release or one method and perfect it because I have a league or tournament coming up. This has allowed me to enjoy my time on the range more than most winters and simply shoot. 

Overall it has allowed me to have some days where I tried something and got a beyond awesome first impression like a "breakthrough" that was going to lead me to some new level of shooting but then the new wears off and I had to move on. 

The one constant thing that I have allowed to be my primary focus for the winter is feeling solid with my grip of my release so that I can apply a smooth amount of pressure to my system from start to finish. I am not adding or subtracting pressure in my shot as I see the sight pin settle down on the x, I just keep things smooth without any pressure changes.


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## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

In the last two weeks I have been working on one new thing that is showing me some promise, for me applying the same pressure is a goal but not something that I am able to say that I meet that goal every day. With hinge shooting sometimes you are standing there and you have done your execution and the dang thing simply didn't fire and you either let down or you add some pressure or you yield your fingers past what it normal. When I am forced to do this is where misses happen, 

So my new thing to work on it thumb placement after releasing the thumb peg, Here is what I am finding.

1. If I release the peg and keep the thumb near the peg my hinge is the slowest.
2. If I touch my index finger with my thumb it is a little faster
3. If I touch my middle finger it is a little faster yet
4. If I touch my ringe finger it is even a little faster
5. I can't really reach my pinky finger and it feels weird so I don't try to touch it.

So I am coming back and settling into the shot and applying pressure to the wall so that I feel really solid and then I release my thumb peg smoothly and move my thumb over to the middle finger. This is my thumb standard location to start shooting each day and then depending on how my release is firing I can move to the index finger to slow it down a little or the ring finger to speed it up a little. What is cool is the effort that I am putting into the shot is not having to change at all so the pressures are remaining exactly the same. 

With hinge shooting over the years for me it is the day to day little changes in hinge speed caused by fatigue or stress or lack of ability to simply grip the hinge exactly the same every shot that causes me to be standing there needing to add more to the release to fire it. I have always wanted a way to simply change the hinge speed anytime I wanted just a little slower or faster so that I didnt have to force some extra rotation. 

My goal with this is to allow myself to come to full draw and apply that nice strong feeling to my shot and then know that I am going to be able to execute the same every shot because I can simply speed up or slow down things with a simply thumb placement.


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## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

We can talk about different things you can do with your execution if you want but here is something else to consider doing, everytime I do it I am glad that I did it because it shows me the truth about my shooting.

On my vegas or 5-spot target I make a quick little chart where I can put little tally marks. I put a spot across the top for each of these and then draw down a vertical line to separate them. Inside out, Line touch, Line licker, Miss

So then each trip to the target to get my arrows I make tally marks under each of them that happened and at the end of the hour of shooting I have a nice data set to look at. The key is to look at the line touches and line lickers, Line lickers are a fraction of a inch from missing but even though the line touches are pretty solid to me they are also in the I could have missed category. Last week I did it and saw these type numbers, I shot about 70 shots that shooting session and I had 2 misses and about 8 line touches and 60 inside outs. That was a interesting day because I didn't have any line lickers at all which is rare for me.

In the end though I had 10 shots out of the 70 that I took that were not inside out efforts and 2 of them missed, none of those 10 shots felt good when they fired. Yeah 8 of them worked out in my favor and scored really good but they felt just as bad as the two that missed. 

The day before I had a totally different day with the tally marks, I only shot for a little over a half hour but was alone so there was no time wasted and I shot around 40 shots which isn't very many but the cool thing is that I didn't miss one time so I got to shoot clean that day. Problem is that out of the 40 shots I had 6 line lickers and 9 line touches which only left me with 25 inside outs. This day I felt pretty weak 15 times out of the 40 times I shot and even though I got lucky and they all stayed in it was a pretty poor day.


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## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

I am pretty sure that you are shooting a hinge, you mentioned back tension release. 

With that said there are many different ways to set them up and get to click and fire them. One of the things that I can not handle is unbalanced fingers, I absolutely hate it. This winter I have spent a good amount of time visiting some of the old methods that I hadn't used in years just to refresh myself to what they felt like and offered to a shooter. One of the first things I noticed it the moment I unbalanced my fingers it felt horrible and lots of funny things happened to my shooting. As far as getting rid of arrows a unbalanced hand on my hinge wasn't a issue, it was the pin float and the drop out the bottom and pull off to the side and the overall sensation of feeling totally weak at anchor. 

One of the easiest ways to experience what I am talking about is turning the moon so that it can not fire, just turn the dang thing a long ways. Then draw back with all of your fingers equally and come to anchor and then engage them, basically slightly squeeze all of them like you are going to make a fist. I am not telling you to make a fist but simply engage them as you put pressure into the wall. This to me is a super strong solid position to feel without fear that the hinge is going to fire. 

Right now with the hinge set this stupid slow is also a great time to collapse the thumb down to your middle finger and ring finger and feel your hand in this position, it is a interesting position and way different than having the thumb stiff and out in the middle of nowhere. But doing this is a really nice 20 minutes to feel what your hinge shooting could feel like as you transition into execution. 

I was having a really nice time with my tru ball hbc two finger in the click setting this last week or two and had really made some progress with it. I had to stop shooting it because the click is starting to click fire on me. I had taken a piece of 220 grit sand paper and speeded up the click a little and it was perfect but for some reason it must have worn down a little and now every time I come to click it fires. 

But with this release before it died I had totally set it up with unbalanced fingers and then with balanced and engaged fingers and the difference between the two setups is unbelievable. One of them just sucks and makes me feel weak and edgy and on the edge of failure at all times with where the other one makes me feel strong and confident.


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## Xwind (Nov 7, 2017)

Wow thats pretty valuable info ! Thanx a lot !

I like the idea of the tally marks ! Ill start to use them to get another mesure of my progression !

Yes I shoot a hinge (stan jet black) I use the click and the fast sear (.06). i tried the slower one (.10) but I found that the shot was braking a little too late in my "optimal window".

I tried a lot of settings (hot/cold, even pressure on finger etc..) and the way I'm the most comfortable is very "hot"..
When I get the click, I would say that the pressure is 60%index/ 30%middle finger /10%ring finger. 
I tried slower settings with even pressure on my fingers..but couldnt put in my head to relax my index while increasing pressure..too much things to think 
The way I shoot is I imagine my back elbow is pulling on my middle/ring finger when I increase tension. I dont relax my index.

I've shot a lot in the last 2 days focussing on getting more steady in my pressure..

I should receive my bow press today..time to mess with my draw lenght 

(Btw I got my first podium (2nd) this past WE in a provincial 3d event yeah! All this shooting start to pay  )

Thanx again for your help !


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## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

I'm glad you started this thread, it is forcing me to think about stuff in my own shooting this winter. I know when I first started shooting indoor this winter I had taken a good break from 3d and not shot any at all for a good chunk, enough that it took me a few weeks to get back into good shooter shape. During that time I came to anchor and settled in and when my sight pin came over near the x I just started my execution and let it run until it fired and I just allowed the pin to float. 

Right now I am a few months invested into my shooting and I am allowing myself to tie my execution to my aiming because my aiming has become very predictable to me and the .19 pin is settling into the x very nicely and sitting there with very little float for a few seconds. So I am timing my execution to start just as the sight pin is settling and it runs during those 3 or so seconds of good hold on the x. 

The only misses I am seeing are when I choose to allow a shot to progress when something doesn't feel right at all right from the start, on those I have to let down and just start over. 

What is really cool is that I am not really missing on the shots that start out awesome and during the execution something feels funny just as the shot breaks, those shots are hitting solid on the line. 

For the first month or two those things were not true at all, I had many days where I felt really good about my execution and would be standing there wondering why in the hell did i miss that one because it felt perfect. I knew from past years that all I had to do was EARN THE RIGHT to not miss by putting in the time every day on the range shooting and sometime it would happen.

I do not take it lightly that I am allowing myself to tie my execution to my aiming, this is something that I will not do until I am 100% ready. I still shoot a surprise release but the few months of training have been narrowing down my execution to a very manageable amount that fires nicely within a few seconds so I can start with that good hold. But for the months leading up as I trained I allowed it to fire very early in that good hold and late in that hold and many times the hold had come and gone before it fired. During those early shooting sessions I have my best surprise releases happening before during and after the good hold. Right now my goal is to only fire during the good hold.

Yesterday I had a couple guys show up on the range with me and it added a little nervous energy to my system so my shot ran longer and I shot late in that good hold for over a hour, I only had one or two shots in that hour that broke on the first half of the good hold.

So if I was competing this winter I would attend lots of league nights and that would be my focus to time my execution to the middle of the good hold.


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## Xwind (Nov 7, 2017)

What you describe is a lot like what I feel in my shot !

In the last months i've shot a lot of arrows..(1000+/week) I've set a goal in my head and I feel that's what I have to do to reach that goal..

I can stay in front a blank bale, floating around and execute what I feel is my "perfect" shot pretty consistently. But bottom line, I want that arrow in the X and to do that, the arrows need to be pointed in the right direction..

I think I've come to realise that today my shot execution is divided in 3 sections :

-General execution : thats my routine, my form, everything that happen just before the moment the pin settle. I feel I can let off in that part if something feel weird.
-"Aiming execution" : I've found that I also have a certain routine or like you said, I came to a point where my aiming become "predictable".
-Final/trigger execution : Thats where the final increase in tension and trigger happen. This execution last maybe 2-3 sec. and is impossible for me to stop. Once I started that final move on the hinge after the click, I cant stop it.

So, on a "perfect" shot, I feel that my general execution/form is good, than my brain gives the "GO" to my body to start the "trigger execution" because it feels that the pin is going to settle for a short "window" of time (1-2 sec?) in that 10/x ring..and everything just happen...

Of course on a bad shot, something went wrong in one/two or three of these executions...And I'm far from being able to say that I can master all these execution...If I was, I would probably be on a plane somewhere between Nimes and Lancaster and NOT here in my office in front of my computer writing on a forum..LOL)

But this helped me indentify my misses and see where it didn't work..
I found for me it's often one of those things :

-The "GO" was not given at the right moment and the shot broke before or after the 1-2 sec "window" where the pin is steady in the X and/or the pin never really stopped bouncing around.
I think I need to work on my form and bow setup etc. to lenghten that "window" and shorten the float so it will give me more room for error in my "GO" timing

-My "trigger" execution was rushed because I was feeling the "window" was closing and had to fire fast....usually finish with a high miss... 
That one is going to be harder to work on...I think it will need more arrow and more focus on steady execution...


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