# How bad is split finger for barebow?



## dnelsen (Dec 11, 2016)

And yes, grantmac, I certainly haven't forgotten your strong recommendation that I go 3 under. I'm just wondering what others think


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## Stash (Jun 1, 2002)

Really, how hard would it be for you to try both and decide for yourself which you prefer? Sorry if that sounds rude, but what everybody "thinks" has no bearing on what is more accurate for you.


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## arrowchucker222 (Jun 17, 2013)

Just make up your mind you will shoot 3under! It has many advantages, you will shoot better. You will also probably whack your. Nose. Until you get your head position right. I still carry a bunch of little round bandaids in my quiver. John Demmer , top shooter puts a big ol piece of hockey stick tape on his nose. He is one of the best in the world.


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## JParanee (Oct 13, 2009)

I resisted three under for 3 decades 

I am a hard headed idiot  

I switched to three under for barebow about 3 or 4 years ago and I'll never switch back 

Just do it the benefits out weight the negatives by a long shot


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## Sanford (Jan 26, 2009)

What does your coach say about it?


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## dnelsen (Dec 11, 2016)

Stash said:


> Really, how hard would it be for you to try both and decide for yourself which you prefer? Sorry if that sounds rude, but what everybody "thinks" has no bearing on what is more accurate for you.


I keep thinking that if I were to try it I would need to try it for a while in order to get a good sense of how well it works. I keep being reluctant to commit to really trying it because I don't want to interrupt the progress I'm making with split.

Yes I know... I really need to give it a good try anyways...


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## dnelsen (Dec 11, 2016)

Sanford said:


> What does your coach say about it?


I once asked him a few weeks ago and he said stick with split. Although I didn't express my desire to focus on barebow so that's not fair. I really wasn't sure if I wanted to stick with barebow until very recently. I should ask again.


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## dnelsen (Dec 11, 2016)

Does the nock point need to move for 3 under?


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## LuisLeon (Feb 23, 2015)

I shoot split and don't feel handicapped, though I've started to experiment with a higher anchor for my twenty yard shooting. Now that I feel solid in my technique, I'm allowing myself to experiment. Shoot bare bow however you see fit, you can always go back to what you prefer.


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## Sanford (Jan 26, 2009)

dnelsen said:


> I once asked him a few weeks ago and he said stick with split. Although I didn't express my desire to focus on barebow so that's not fair. I really wasn't sure if I wanted to stick with barebow until very recently. I should ask again.


Here's the thing about it. It changes your gap for the better, so, naturally, it's highly used. Other than that, it's the same three fingers on the string in exactly the same fashion. Nothing changes about your form. I would assume he's trying to get you to focus on what's important, your ability to learn to launch an arrow exactly the same every arrow, which is what archery is about if you want to be consistent in accuracy. So, if anything is done to cause you to focus more on changing your sight picture which adds nothing to the main goal, then you're more into aiming issues than archery. Later, when you have mastered the goal, you can easily decide whether sight, no sight, split, or three under. It's just not worth worrying at this point. Most folks use what they need for the purpose and are not married to only one method. You should as well, later.


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## camperjim (Oct 22, 2016)

Split finger and instinctive style aiming are a lot of fun and in keeping with what many consider to be a traditional form of archery. It is NOT competitive for highly accurate barebow shooting. If you want to see the barebow style and what is involved go to You Tube and look up the video on barebow competition for the 2017 Lancaster Classic. Of course barebow is not competitive with Olympic style recurve and that is not competitive with compound archery. 

Some of us stick with a trad approach to shooting. Others want to compete at a high level and need to adopt the styles and the rules that govern competitive shooting. If you want to become serious about competitive shooting, you should also consider the time and expense involved. Olympic for example is highly demanding and you will need to train and shoot daily for years to reach a competitive level. Barebow shooting is a bit more informal with way less participants. You can still plan on a lot of time and effort to reach a competitive level. Just view the You Tube video and you will start to see the level of equipment and skill needed.


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## TGbow (Jun 24, 2016)

I shot split from 1975 till bout 2 yrs ago I started playin with 3U.
Now I can shoot either way. I have a crooked index finger on my drawing hand and 3u just helps prevent nock pinch.
I guess its takin me a while to totally go 3U but in my case I dont have to worry about pinching the nock.
Either method is good. It dont hurt to shoot both methods, imo.
Whatever works for you is what you should go with.
I will say it took me a while to get in sync with 3U. I prefer a glove over a tab 3U but either will work.


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## Demmer (Dec 1, 2012)

I shoot 3 under and will never go split unless I'm shooting 90m. You can have just as much fun shooting 3 under as you can shooting split. One way isn't anymore trad than another way. 
Like others have said. 3 under narrows the gap by a lot and will help a lot of you are aiming with the arrow. It will help a lot if you are gapping split vision too. Way more positives than negatives to fight it if your goal is to hit the target better. 

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk


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## theblacksage (Jan 29, 2017)

I started out split and like it, but now that I have two bows I'm thinking of setting up my first (Sage) for 3 under barebow.


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## Bobalouie (Jul 20, 2016)

Demmer said:


> I shoot 3 under and will never go split unless I'm shooting 90m. You can have just as much fun shooting 3 under as you can shooting split. One way isn't anymore trad than another way.
> Like others have said. 3 under narrows the gap by a lot and will help a lot of you are aiming with the arrow. It will help a lot if you are gapping split vision too. Way more positives than negatives to fight it if your goal is to hit the target better.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk


Congratulations on your success at Lancaster Classic and Las Vegas. It was inspiring to see you shoot live. I appreciate your humility and graciousness as well. I wish I could arrange for some lessons but I believe your in Pennsylvania.

Thanks 

Bob


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## Demmer (Dec 1, 2012)

Bobalouie said:


> Congratulations on your success at Lancaster Classic and Las Vegas. It was inspiring to see you shoot live. I appreciate your humility and graciousness as well. I wish I could arrange for some lessons but I believe your in Pennsylvania.
> 
> Thanks
> 
> Bob


Thanks Bob. I have been very fortunate lately. You are correct I do reside in PA. 

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## dnelsen (Dec 11, 2016)

Asked before but it got buried... for 3 under would I need to move the nock point?


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## Jim Casto Jr (Aug 20, 2002)

Maybe... maybe not. You'll just have to tune your bow and see. I've never had any issues by using the same nocking point, but some guys say they need to raise theirs some.


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## dnelsen (Dec 11, 2016)

Ok I'm going to try it when my used Gillo G2 arrives.

One thing I'm sure I'm going to prefer is that a 3-under finger tab has gotta be more comfortable. I've had some issues with pinching the arrow nock, and have had to fiddle with my finger spacer quite a bit to deal with it. Much better now, the pinch is gone, but I still get a bit of discomfort from the spacer itself.

I'm going to order a Bateman 3 under tab. I love how simple it is. And cheap.


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## fallhunt (Aug 2, 2013)

camperjim said:


> Split finger and instinctive style aiming are a lot of fun.................. It is NOT competitive for highly accurate barebow shooting................... *Of course barebow is not competitive with Olympic style recurve and that is not competitive with compound archery*.................
> 
> Some of us stick with a trad approach to shooting. Others want to compete at a high level and need to adopt the styles and the rules that govern competitive shooting.....................


:thumbs_up


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## kegan (Aug 28, 2006)

It's not that big of a deal. If you're not reaching the level of accuracy you want try it. I switched to improve my shooting for hunting and it certainly improved my success on game (targets too). 

Your mileage may vary!


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## JParanee (Oct 13, 2009)

kegan said:


> It's not that big of a deal. If you're not reaching the level of accuracy you want try it. I switched to improve my shooting for hunting and it certainly improved my success on game (targets too).
> 
> Your mileage may vary!


This ^^^^

Once I commited I found my shooting to be more consistent and accurate 

I find it odd that many assume that just because you shoot three under you are shooting a dedicated gap 

I did not change my aiming style when I switched over but it did teach me that I was using my arrow as a reference more than I thought 

It also proved to me that there is no such thing as an instinctive shot it's just more or less a form of shooting a subconscious gap 

The more you reduce the gap the easier it gets


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## dnelsen (Dec 11, 2016)

JParanee said:


> The more you reduce the gap the easier it gets


This makes perfect sense. I get it. 

For me it's about getting over the peculiarity of it. Too many Robin Hood movies, too much archery as a kid, and it just plain looks weird. It's irrational, but honestly it's a factor. 3-under seems really strange when you're not accustomed to it.


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## dnelsen (Dec 11, 2016)

Should a second nock point be added to go under the nock?

This would seem to make sense since it keeps your tab from touching the nock itself.

I've seen a few pictures where people do this but I wasn't sure.


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## camperjim (Oct 22, 2016)

I added a lower nocking point. I think it helps and it also allowed me to experiment with a crawl.

Even with 3 under, I have a huge gap and a crawl is the only way I have found to use a gap aiming method. 

I have played with both 3 under and a crawl but doubt I will do either. I enjoy split finger and instinctive aiming. To me that is traditional because when I first started to shoot in the 60s that was the only style I saw. For younger and/or newer shooters, 3 under must seem just as "traditional". I would not want to make any argument as to what is historically traditional. I am sure bows have been shot with every conceivable style of string and arrow grip. I would guess using the thumb to help hold the string and the arrow was historically the most common.


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## kegan (Aug 28, 2006)

dnelsen said:


> This makes perfect sense. I get it.
> 
> For me it's about getting over the peculiarity of it. Too many Robin Hood movies, too much archery as a kid, and it just plain looks weird. It's irrational, but honestly it's a factor. 3-under seems really strange when you're not accustomed to it.


For the record, it took me two to three months to get even remotely comfortable with three under; I started split and had shot that way since I was a kid.

Do what you need to do to reach your goal and most importantly just have fun with it!


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## dnelsen (Dec 11, 2016)

kegan said:


> For the record, it took me two to three months to get even remotely comfortable with three under; I started split and had shot that way since I was a kid.
> 
> Do what you need to do to reach your goal and most importantly just have fun with it!


From all accounts it seems like a leap of faith. As with any change of technique I suppose. But this is a big one.

I am already having a lot of fun, and I'm steadily progressing with split. Thus my reluctance to switch it up. However I do plan do be at this for a long time, so I'm going to try it. Whether or not I stick it out for the time it takes to get used to it remains to be seen.


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## Lumis17 (Jun 9, 2003)

In addition to moving your nocking point, you may need to adjust your arrow spine. On all the setups I've shot with both styles, I've always needed a slightly stiffer arrow when shooting three under. If you weren't planning to already, I would retune your setup if you make the switch.


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## dnelsen (Dec 11, 2016)

Lumis17 said:


> In addition to moving your nocking point, you may need to adjust your arrow spine. On all the setups I've shot with both styles, I've always needed a slightly stiffer arrow when shooting three under. If you weren't planning to already, I would retune your setup if you make the switch.


Thanks.

I have a new riser on order (Gillo G2), and I'm having my shop set it up, so I'm wondering if I should have them set it up specifically for 3-under... I guess that all depends if I'm taking the plunge here or not... hmmm...


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## dnelsen (Dec 11, 2016)

It's interesting to note that whenever someone tries archery for the first time, they are always handed a barebow and instructed to shoot split finger... ok maybe not _always_, but that's all I've ever seen.

Why aren't newbies instructed to try 3 under?

Just old habits dying hard?


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## Sanford (Jan 26, 2009)

dnelsen said:


> It's interesting to note that whenever someone tries archery for the first time, they are always handed a barebow and instructed to shoot split finger... ok maybe not _always_, but that's all I've ever seen.
> 
> Why aren't newbies instructed to try 3 under?
> 
> Just old habits dying hard?


I go with however they feel comfortable. Either will suffice and work on other more important stuff. There is a case that learning relaxed finger grip with split is more in feedback in pinch v. no pinch. Kids can have big issues with pinch and lessons can move quicker if you start them three under even if split is in their future.


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## dnelsen (Dec 11, 2016)

Sanford said:


> I go with however they feel comfortable. Either will suffice and work on other more important stuff. There is a case that learning relaxed finger grip with split is more in feedback in pinch v. no pinch. Kids can have big issues with pinch and lessons can move quicker if you start them three under even if split is in their future.


I'm finding a theme in your comments on this, which is that there's really not that much difference in technique... at least maybe not as much difference as some others would imply... 

I find this encouraging, as it would mean that switching maybe isn't that big of a leap.

Do I have this right?


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## Sanford (Jan 26, 2009)

dnelsen said:


> I'm finding a theme in your comments on this, which is that there's really not that much difference in technique... at least maybe not as much difference as some others would imply...
> 
> I find this encouraging, as it would mean that switching maybe isn't that big of a leap.
> 
> Do I have this right?


It changes your sight picture. You have to mentally get used to it is all. Same can be said when you add a sight, or, switch from pin to an aperture. My theme when helping anyone on development of their form is that we will never get into anything aiming. It distracts focus on learning to shoot right. If they are focused on the front end, then the hard part, the archers end, suffers on progress.


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## JParanee (Oct 13, 2009)

dnelsen said:


> Should a second nock point be added to go under the nock?
> 
> This would seem to make sense since it keeps your tab from touching the nock itself.
> 
> I've seen a few pictures where people do this but I wasn't sure.


Believe me like I mentioned I shot split from when I was 5 or 6 till in my 40's 

It was very hard for me to switch 

I would try it for a bit and than switch back 

It took going to a lot of shoots and seeing what worked predominantly for the better shooters and a bow with a small sight window to make me make the change 

As a kid I had a buddy that shot three under 

We were big on all the traditional nonsense which in realty is just that 

People have been gripping bow strings differently since the dawn of time so is there really anything traditional 

Traditional is a marketing word that was made up in the last 30 years to sell an ideal ...... nothing more 

Just the fact that three under is the predominant technique in barebow in the competition world says a lot 

It doesn't matter if you are shooting foam , 3 d targets or fur you still want to hit your mark 

I know of a few very good split shooters shooting barebow today but they all have a very high anchor which brings the rear of the arrow to about the same level as most shooting three under 

When I shoot a sighted bow I still shoot split 

That is because that is what works best with a sighted setup as in sight window etc 

Shoot how ever you like but it seems like you know what you want to do it's just hard to give in and do it 

It was for me 

Than one day I just made the jump and I'll never look back 

As for two nocking points 

Yes it's a good idea in my opinion for a multitude of reasons


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## Demmer (Dec 1, 2012)

dnelsen said:


> It's interesting to note that whenever someone tries archery for the first time, they are always handed a barebow and instructed to shoot split finger... ok maybe not _always_, but that's all I've ever seen.
> 
> Why aren't newbies instructed to try 3 under?
> 
> Just old habits dying hard?


Usually handed to them by a shooter with an oly background.

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## Rick Rendo (Aug 7, 2009)

dnelsen,
Yes, a second nocking point is recommended so that the nock doesn't slip on the string. 

Rick


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## camperjim (Oct 22, 2016)

Since I have been shooting split for years and recently have started to play with 3 under, perhaps my experience on switching will be of some help. I have not found it at all difficult to switch. My bow makes some noise but that is about it. My 3 under anchor position is very similar to my split finger position. The bow feels pretty much the same. I grip the bow and my form and back tension are pretty much the same. Unfortunately my anchor is index finger to the corner of the mouth. That is unfortunate because even with 3 under, the gap is huge (about 22" at 20 yards). To close the gap, I really need a higher anchor such as middle finger at the corner of the mouth. That has not worked for me. The string pushes into my eyeglasses, the string hits my nose and worst of all, my form is horrible. I don't have a good bone on bone wedge and I cannot use good back tension. 

For now I will continue to play with my lower more comfortable anchor position. If I decide to continue with 3 under I will again see if I can work on a higher anchor and a truly useful gap aiming system. I have also tried a crawl. For me that needs to be about 1 1/2" at 20 yards. 

To me it comes down to whether I want to shoot competitive barebow or just enjoy informal archery. I have been shooting 3D. I enjoy the competitions but shoot against others with the same instinctive style. Any decent barebow archer shooting gap will outshoot me. I am not sure I care. I enjoy the challenge and zen of the instinctive style. I don't need a high anchor or 3 under to shoot instinctively. 

Anyway, I gave a long winded answer. The short answer is again, switching to 3 under at a later time should not be a big issue.


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## Bender (Dec 6, 2006)

To be truly competitive in Bare Bow at events with varying distances such as 3D or Field you really should switch to 3 under. It is necessary in order to be able to stringwalk at the different distances. 

As already pointed out yes you might have to change your nock point. Tuning should be readdressed anyway, and running the tuning process will tell you where to put your nock point.

Yes you should install a second nock point. It prevents nock slide and is necessary for stringwalking at those distances when your string hand engages the string well below the arrow nock.


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## Sanford (Jan 26, 2009)

If string walking is in your future, you should become comfortable at shooting up and down the string, including where you are now. I would say foremost, you want to first be grounded in form and release from at least a single position on the string, wherever you start comfortably for you.


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## rattus58 (Jul 9, 2007)

dnelsen said:


> So I'm still new to the sport, I've been shooting a lot for the last few months.
> 
> I'm finding myself more and more drawn to shooting barebow. Maybe it's the simplicity of the rig, maybe it's nostalgia because it's how I shot at summer camp as a kid. Whatever the reason, I'm loving it and I'm not finding myself drawn to the sites and stabilizers. Maybe someday I will, but for now I'm going to stick to barebow. I even just bought a used Gillo G2 riser. Haven't gotten it yet but I can't wait.
> 
> ...


 Shouldn't hinder you at all. There comes a poundage for most of us, tho, where split finger can be trying.. but in MY OPINION, releases are cleaner when you can drop your ring finger from the string... :grin:


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## ItsJim (Jul 29, 2016)

Demmer said:


> Thanks Bob. I have been very fortunate lately. You are correct I do reside in PA.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk


John, It was indeed a pleasure to get to watch you "live" in Las Vegas last weekend. Congratulations on the win! (where can I get a pair of those shoes?  )


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## Arcus (Jul 7, 2005)

Bender said:


> To be truly competitive in Bare Bow at events with varying distances such as 3D or Field you really should switch to 3 under. It is necessary in order to be able to stringwalk at the different distances.


Shooting 35# OTF, if I use 3-under, my gaps above the target for the longer field distances are problematic.


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## JamesThom. (Oct 9, 2016)

Don't listen to people telling you that you can't be acurate shooting split. Archers have been using split finger since the bow was first invented many thousands of years ago. Three under has only been possible within the last century or so since the invention of snap on nocks and is not a traditional way to shoot the bow. 

You can be deadly accurate shooting split just look at Howard Hill, Byron, and all the other legends. I tried 3 under myself but did not like it because the string kept hitting my nose, the arrow drops much faster, and it makes the bow noiser.

Split finger gives a quieter bow, more arrow control, and a flatter trajectory (based upon what you see).

Don't listen to the naysayers anyone can become accurate within 25 or so yards no matter what method you use. 

I also don't have to worry about a nock taking my eye out in case of nock failure.


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## dnelsen (Dec 11, 2016)

JamesThom. said:


> Don't listen to people telling you that you can't be acurate shooting split. Archers have been using split finger since the bow was first invented many thousands of years ago. Three under has only been possible within the last century or so since the invention of snap on nocks and is not a traditional way to shoot the bow.
> 
> You can be deadly accurate shooting split just look at Howard Hill, Byron, and all the other legends. I tried 3 under myself but did not like it because the string kept hitting my nose, the arrow drops much faster, and it makes the bow noiser.
> 
> ...


*goes to make popcorn*


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## Archer Mech (Sep 7, 2014)

JamesThom. said:


> Don't listen to people telling you that you can't be acurate shooting split. Archers have been using split finger since the bow was first invented many thousands of years ago. Three under has only been possible within the last century or so since the invention of snap on nocks and is not a traditional way to shoot the bow.
> 
> You can be deadly accurate shooting split just look at Howard Hill, Byron, and all the other legends. I tried 3 under myself but did not like it because the string kept hitting my nose, the arrow drops much faster, and it makes the bow noiser.
> 
> ...


I started shooting BP fiberglass bows when I was ten yo and I'm now SS age. I did a lot of bowhunting when I was younger and that's a big reason why I still shoot split finger with a low anchor. 3U is just weird for me. I'll stick with what works for me. Our local shop recommends a lot of beginners to shoot 3U and that's fine. I wouldn't interfere. I can be an example for my shooting style for others since I can pattern my arrows as well as others with sights and stabilizers. Unfortunately I still get those flyers, but I blame my age for those...Ha ha


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## grantmac (May 31, 2007)

Arcus said:


> Shooting 35# OTF, if I use 3-under, my gaps above the target for the longer field distances are problematic.


Build lighter arrows, best of both worlds.


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## Bender (Dec 6, 2006)

I'm just pointing out, that if you want to be COMPETITIVE in Bare Bow class you should shoot 3 under so you can string walk. If you shoot split, you are simply unable to string walk. You will be forced to engage the string at the same place every time. 

Setting aside any BS arguments about what is or is not "Tarditional", if you shoot in a class that allows stringwalking you WILL be more accurate if you DO stringwalk. 

I mean its like if you shot a compound, do you expect to be truly competitive shooting a single fixed pin against a whole field of guys shooting shooting multiple pins or a movable pin?


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## JamesThom. (Oct 9, 2016)

Bender said:


> I'm just pointing out, that if you want to be COMPETITIVE in Bare Bow class you should shoot 3 under so you can string walk. If you shoot split, you are simply unable to string walk. You will be forced to engage the string at the same place every time.
> 
> Setting aside any BS arguments about what is or is not "Tarditional", if you shoot in a class that allows stringwalking you WILL be more accurate if you DO stringwalk.
> 
> I mean its like if you shot a compound, do you expect to be truly competitive shooting a single fixed pin against a whole field of guys shooting shooting multiple pins or a movable pin?


What are we defining as barebow? Most of the barebow shot at the major tournaments is not real barebow. They allow stabilizers and and other attachments at a lot of these events. 

I think if he is shooting traditional or "single string" archery for the competitive aspect he's doing it for the wrong reasons. "Barebow" archery is not popular at all and there's not much competition in it even on a nation wide scale. 

He should just shoot what he enjoys the most even if he does not score well with it. I personally could never walk the string, the last thing I want to do while I'm out shooting is count strands on my string and count or calculate the distance for each of my shot's. In my opinion string walking is the most boring, slowest, and least rewarding way to shoot the bow period.


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## Bender (Dec 6, 2006)

JamesThom. said:


> I think if he is shooting traditional or "single string" archery for the competitive aspect he's doing it for the wrong reasons. "Barebow" archery is not popular at all and there's not much competition in it even on a nation wide scale.


I'll be blunt here.

James Thom you've been banned once already. 

Its unfortunate that you're back. 

Please go away.

You have no idea what so ever what you are talking about.

Nobody cares what you think or what you believe because you are so totally clueless.

And if me speaking the truth gets ME banned, so be it.


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## JParanee (Oct 13, 2009)

I'm not really speaking of string walking with my three under I'm basically 

Shooting a tiny fixed crawl because my finger in not touching the arrow nock 



Shooting like this seems to be more consistent for me at my hunting distances 

My anchor is my anchor and due to my face shape I'm not changing it 

When I shot split with the same anchor you can imagine how low the back of the arrow was as seen in this pic of me at full draw 



By going to three under I became more consistent 

I am not what anyone would call a gap shooter 

I know I am subconsciously gapping and when my consistency improved by going to three under it proved that I'm using the arrow more than I ever thought 

As for traditional 

I don't know what that means nor do I care  

I've been shooting recurves my whole life and I don't get the sentiment


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## Demmer (Dec 1, 2012)

James is back again? Two steps back for barebow again. Lol. 

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## JParanee (Oct 13, 2009)

Demmer is the vegas shoot on YouTube yet ? 

Congrats 

Btw 

I called you the other day 

Ya to fancy to call back ?


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## Demmer (Dec 1, 2012)

Joe, you must have hit me in a dead zone... I show no missed calls, because I live in BFE you know. Lol. We won't be seen on the Vegas footage. They don't do it like Lancaster does. Lancaster does it like no body else, that's why it's the best shoot of them all. 

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## JParanee (Oct 13, 2009)

Bummer on the video 

I'll call ya tomorrow


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## grantmac (May 31, 2007)

It's troll whack-a-mole, although fun to see a resurrection rather than having to waste time engaging what you believe to be a genuine entity.

As for the OP: split is fine if you exclusively shoot in your back yard or against people who aren't very good. Eventually being mediocre gets boring though, plus trad/barebow doesn't need any more crappy shooters.


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## TGbow (Jun 24, 2016)

I've been shooting 3under off and on for 2 years. Went out today and shot for a good while. I have to say I'm not 100% converted.
I shot split for many years and it seems more natural to me in some ways.
Good thing is , now I can shoot either way. Although I am working on shooting split finger , thik I've come up with a way to keep the index finger from pinching the nock.
Whatever works.


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## dnelsen (Dec 11, 2016)

grantmac said:


> trad/barebow doesn't need any more crappy shooters.


Odd comment. I don't care what anyone else needs, or if I'm pissing in the pool with my mediocrity. I'm in this for my own fulfillment, and to enjoy with friends.


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## dnelsen (Dec 11, 2016)

Great post JParanee. The pix are extremely helpful. Thank you.


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## Demmer (Dec 1, 2012)

Nelsen, I don't know how far away you are, but check out ACE archers in Massachusetts. Some barebow styleish shooters there. 

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## dnelsen (Dec 11, 2016)

JParanee said:


>


Why the threaded knots nock points (or whatever they're called) instead of the common crimp nock points?


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## dnelsen (Dec 11, 2016)

Demmer said:


> Nelsen, I don't know how far away you are, but check out ACE archers in Massachusetts. Some barebow styleish shooters there.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk


Ha!!! That's where I shoot 90% of the time. I really like it there.

One of the instructors there, Joan, she shoots extremely well _split finger_ barebow. She has a gold TR-7 riser that gives me serious bow envy.


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## Demmer (Dec 1, 2012)

I don't want this to sound bragging.....









No way could I be doing this while shooting split finger. This was today arrow testing and point testing. Testing setups for the upcoming USA indoor nationals. 

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## dnelsen (Dec 11, 2016)

Damn. Hard to argue with that.


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## JParanee (Oct 13, 2009)

Demmer stop posting my targets  

Amazing shooting John 

Dnelson 

I use tie on knocks 

I can twist them up and down my string to micro tune and I just prefer them over clamp on nocks


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## JParanee (Oct 13, 2009)

dnelsen said:


> Odd comment. I don't care what anyone else needs, or if I'm pissing in the pool with my mediocrity. I'm in this for my own fulfillment, and to enjoy with friends.


Don't take Grant the wrong way  

He's a good shooter and knows what he's talking about 

His point is to be careful who's advise you heed 

The Demmer character posting on here is the King Kong of barebow 

He also hunts and is a pretty good shot  

The question you posed was how bad is split finger for barebow ? 

You know the answer now


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## Sanford (Jan 26, 2009)

dnelsen said:


> Odd comment. I don't care what anyone else needs, or if I'm pissing in the pool with my mediocrity. I'm in this for my own fulfillment, and to enjoy with friends.


If you decide to compete, the vast majority will respect your choices no matter what you show with or do. Same thing as with friends. The sport, especially trad and barebow, needs more people of all levels and ideas of what to make out of it to suit them. If someone made you feel otherwise, they don't belong in the sport.


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## JamesThom. (Oct 9, 2016)

grantmac said:


> It's troll whack-a-mole, although fun to see a resurrection rather than having to waste time engaging what you believe to be a genuine entity.
> 
> As for the OP: split is fine if you exclusively shoot in your back yard or against people who aren't very good. Eventually being mediocre gets boring though, plus trad/barebow doesn't need any more crappy shooters.


Even the guys shooting WA barebow at the championships miss the target completely from time to time so I guess even the best barebow archers are crappy according to your standards.



Demmer said:


> I don't want this to sound bragging.....
> 
> Even the guys shooting WA barebow at the championships miss the target completely from time to time so I guess even the best barebow archers are crappy according to your standards as well.
> 
> ...


What distance is this? 18m? That's boring archery. Go back to 50+ yards and let's see the groups.

You guys are crazy if you think you can't be accurate shooting split finger.......


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## Demmer (Dec 1, 2012)

I got it.... Step back far enough so split finger has a chance.... 😉😉 
Shoot a field round and you will see, split doesn't hold a candle to the capabilities of three under. You have a much more wider range of shoots you can go to and be very competitive when you shoot three under. Split limits your capabilities by so much. Go to six yards and shot an normal fita face and try to hit the X ring most of the time while shooting split finger. Most good field shooters can do this. This is what Grant was talking about. Some might have taken his comment a little too far. Having seen him long enough, I know how to take it. He means it with care and want to see people achieve the best they can and not absorb lot of bad information which seems to be quite common.







just because I'm in a fun mood James. This is 66 yards. Just wanted to shoot a mass group. I forget how many arrows, but it took me a couple minutes to shoot that many. Haha

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk


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## dnelsen (Dec 11, 2016)

JParanee said:


> Don't take Grant the wrong way
> 
> He's a good shooter and knows what he's talking about
> 
> His point is to be careful who's advise you heed


Yes I know, and he has always been very helpful... which is why I found the comment odd... the range is full of people with differing techniques, bad form, or just plain not enough practice... We don't shun them from the sport for it... I sure hope not, because currently I'm all 3 of those things. Anyways, no big deal. I get what he's trying to say.

Back on topic: I completely understand the mechanics of how 3 under is more accurate. It just plain makes sense. I'm going to give it a go and see how it feels.


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## JParanee (Oct 13, 2009)

dnelsen said:


> Yes I know, and he has always been very helpful... which is why I found the comment odd... the range is full of people with differing techniques, bad form, or just plain not enough practice... We don't shun them from the sport for it... I sure hope not, because currently I'm all 3 of those things. Anyways, no big deal. I get what he's trying to say.
> 
> Back on topic: I completely understand the mechanics of how 3 under is more accurate. It just plain makes sense. I'm going to give it a go and see how it feels.


I think you wil be pleased in the end 

Like I said for me coming from literally a lifetime of split it was very odd 

Now shooting bare bow any way than three under feels odd 

I think what helped me was while I was doing the conversion I was balling a lot and was heading into a Rod Jenkins course 

So I got used to the mechanics before I ever tried to implement it in an aiming situation 

If you've never used the bake to implement changes in your shot sequence I whole heartidly suggest it 

Happy shooting


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## Breathn (Jun 12, 2005)

In Joe's pick you can see how 3 under you are way less likely to affect arrow flight by fingers hitting arrow nock also.


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## dnelsen (Dec 11, 2016)

Breathn said:


> In Joe's pick you can see how 3 under you are way less likely to affect arrow flight by fingers hitting arrow nock also.


Very true. I've had to modify my split tab quite a bit to avoid hitting the nock. Works great now, but I can definitely see the advantage of 3 under avoiding the issue altogether. I ordered a Bateman 3-under tab to try 3-under, I love how simple and cheap it is.


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## Demmer (Dec 1, 2012)

If you like the feel of split finger tabs..
You can still shoot a split finger style tab three under. I personally hate the rigidity of one solid piece of leather. I cut finger slots in my three under tab. 

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk


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## dnelsen (Dec 11, 2016)

Demmer said:


> If you like the feel of split finger tabs..
> You can still shoot a split finger style tab three under. I personally hate the rigidity of one solid piece of leather. I cut finger slots in my three under tab.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk


Interesting. That's what the Black Widow tabs do.

I was thinking maybe having them all as one piece helps train you to release all three fingers at once. I'm sure it's a preference thing.


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## Sanford (Jan 26, 2009)

dnelsen said:


> I was thinking maybe having them all as one piece helps train you to release all three fingers at once. I'm sure it's a preference thing.


These are the issues to take up one on one with your coach in detail and bail work. What does a clean release consist of, and, what are the mechanics of creating it at the fingers? That's a good lesson question. Split, 3 under, tab, glove, etc.... are peripheral to the base and fundamental thing, the proper release, which takes time to teach and learn. IOW, all good info here, but don't take your eye off the apple in chasing the worm. The worm is good, it's just not all that it's made to be in the scheme of things.


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## Yooper-travler (Feb 28, 2011)

dnelsen said:


> Interesting. That's what the Black Widow tabs do.
> 
> I was thinking maybe having them all as one piece helps train you to release all three fingers at once. I'm sure it's a preference thing.


I have several different styles as I tend to misplace my tabs (or my mastiff eats them). I shoot three under with "split" tabs just fine. My favorites are three unders with the slots cut in.


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## kegan (Aug 28, 2006)

dnelsen said:


> From all accounts it seems like a leap of faith. As with any change of technique I suppose. But this is a big one.
> 
> I am already having a lot of fun, and I'm steadily progressing with split. Thus my reluctance to switch it up. However I do plan do be at this for a long time, so I'm going to try it. Whether or not I stick it out for the time it takes to get used to it remains to be seen.


No need to make this stressful. It's just about fun, not faith.

Good form and a solid shot sequence are important no matter what bow you shoot or how you aim it, so all the skill and practice you put into those aspects will carry over for you, whatever you want to do.

That said, if you are interested in a particular style of competition, it shortens the curve to just talk to people that are already involved seriously in that branch of the sport and learn from them what methods and gear are the most helpful.


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## grantmac (May 31, 2007)

I shoot everything with a modified AAE Cav Elite, which is a split tab.


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## dnelsen (Dec 11, 2016)

grantmac said:


> I shoot everything with a modified AAE Cav Elite, which is a split tab.


I was concerned that my AAE Elite split tab would give me an odd impression of 3-under, since it's got a pretty fat finger spacer. I don't want to deal with assembling/disassembling the spacer, so I simply ordered a $13 Bateman 3-under tab.


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## Easykeeper (Jan 2, 2003)

dnelsen said:


> I was concerned that my AAE Elite split tab would give me an odd impression of 3-under, since it's got a pretty fat finger spacer. I don't want to deal with assembling/disassembling the spacer, so I simply ordered a $13 Bateman 3-under tab.


The Bateman is a very popular tab but like Grant I use a Cavalier Elite cordovan tab for three under. The spacer for split finger comes off with two small screws. 

I'll bet I've had the spacer on mine on and off at least 100 times over the years. I'm another lifelong split finger shooter that sees the advantage of three under and am trying to make it work for me. I like the Cavalier tab as well for split as I do for three under.


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## JamesThom. (Oct 9, 2016)

Demmer that group was actually quite good at 66 yards I'm impressed. If you don't mind me asking what's the arrow weight ?

I must be an oddball though because within 15 yards I can hit an X sized spot nearly every time. At that distance I'm shooting purely instinctive and am not referencing anything. 

For me personally my accuracy starts to drop off around 35 yards shooting split finger instinctive. Within 35 yards I'm shooting 4 to 5" groups on average. 

I could drop my arrow weight (I'm shooting about 10GPP) with my longbow but handshock would go up and my bow would become louder. 

Someone mentioned JP's string nocking point and that's actually something the Asian archers did ( and still do from what I know) shooting the same style of bow as him (recurves which are Asiatic bows).

I'm not sure if he's doing this because of it's Asian tradition, for function, or both. He's shooting a style of Korean archery just without a thumb ring.


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## Demmer (Dec 1, 2012)

310 grains. 
15 yards and can hit the X ring about Everytime, if we are talking about the X ring that is about the size of a penny... That's some shooting! 5 meters I can do that, 10 meters, maybe 1/3 of the time and 15 meters maybe 20% at best. Maintaining 4-5" groups at 35 yards is rather quite impressive too. Maybe one day our paths will cross. Would love to shoot with ya. 🎯

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk


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## Beendare (Jan 31, 2006)

Demmer said:


> 310 grains.
> 15 yards and can hit the X ring about Everytime, if we are talking about the X ring that is about the size of a penny... That's some shooting! 5 meters I can do that, 10 meters, maybe 1/3 of the time and 15 meters maybe 20% at best. Maintaining 4-5" groups at 35 yards is rather quite impressive too. Maybe one day our paths will cross. Would love to shoot with ya. &#55356;&#57263;


Congrats on winning in Vegas John.....jaw dropping scores bro....just amazing! I can't shoot anywhere near what James claims...........but I hope to shoot with you someday too!


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## JamesThom. (Oct 9, 2016)

Wow hold on a second there I can't hit a penny sized target from 15 yards every time, I don't shoot target faces so I'm unaware of how large the "X" is I just assumed it was about 2" or so in diameter. 

Sorry if I came off the wrong way earlier in this thread, take care.


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## Jim Casto Jr (Aug 20, 2002)

JamesThom. said:


> Wow hold on a second there I can't hit a penny sized target from 15 yards every time...


If you're shooting 4-5" groups at 35 yards, you should have gone to Vegas and handed Demmer and all those other 70 barebow shooters their hats.


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## Demmer (Dec 1, 2012)

JamesThom. said:


> Wow hold on a second there I can't hit a penny sized target from 15 yards every time, I don't shoot target faces so I'm unaware of how large the "X" is I just assumed it was about 2" or so in diameter.
> 
> Sorry if I came off the wrong way earlier in this thread, take care.


No worries. That was the face I was talking about. Every body shoots different faces so definitely understandable on the confusion. Archery is a weird sport rules and targets can very quite a bit. Fita x is a penny, nfaa x is like you said, a couple inches. It's a fun and confusing sport at times. When shooting smaller targets, I can't emphasize how much of a benifit using the arrow and going three under helps tremendously. 
I understand people will shoot they way they want and believe what they want to when it comes to labeled and names. That's why I hate the words Trad, Barebow, and instinctive. They all mean different things to each other and usually end up in petty bickering when discussing them. 

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk


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## Demmer (Dec 1, 2012)

Thanks Beendare. It's always rewarding shooting a big shoot like that close to where you are practicing. You never know how stress will effect you at those big shoots. It would be my pleasure to shoot a round with you some day. 

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk


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## fishgutzy (Oct 21, 2014)

I learned 3 under. So that is what I shoot. 
When I'm in China on business I go to a local indoor range. They teach split. 
So they do look at me funny. Me with my barebow, fat aluminium arrows, and much louder thud as they hit the target. 

Sent from my SM-T810 using Tapatalk


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## ahunter55 (Aug 17, 2009)

I shoot Longbow, split finger, wood arrows, barebow BUT that are the rules for my class in the NFAA. Lots of 3 under as you can see from the pics.


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## Stephen Morley (Aug 11, 2016)

IFAA normally shoot Longbow split finger (wood arrows) and recently a new Recurve div that requires wood bow, carbons or woodies and split finger, so you can be in a div that's competitive for you style

People with low poundage bows shoot IFAA Bowhunter div split finger as well


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## MarkJoel60 (Apr 21, 2016)

Bobalouie said:


> Congratulations on your success at Lancaster Classic and Las Vegas. It was inspiring to see you shoot live. I appreciate your humility and graciousness as well. I wish I could arrange for some lessons but I believe your in Pennsylvania.


Not to confuse things... but (correct me if I'm wrong) Wasn't the guy who shot in the finals with John Demmer at the Lancastar barebow shooting split fingers?


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## grantmac (May 31, 2007)

MarkJoel60 said:


> Not to confuse things... but (correct me if I'm wrong) Wasn't the guy who shot in the finals with John Demmer at the Lancastar barebow shooting split fingers?


Nope.

Further clarification for the above post about NFAA longbow, it does not and hasn't ever required split fingers.


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## Stephen Morley (Aug 11, 2016)

IFAA does require split in Longbow, an American shot world Indoors and killed his game when archers informed him on the shooting line that he needs to swap to split, a surprise but he took the news well.


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## MarkJoel60 (Apr 21, 2016)

MarkJoel60 said:


> Not to confuse things... but (correct me if I'm wrong) Wasn't the guy who shot in the finals with John Demmer at the Lancastar barebow shooting split fingers?





grantmac said:


> Nope.


Ack! I actually went back and found the video (Lancaster Archery has it on their facebook page, BTW). And you are right. Bobby Worthington (was the man's name) does indeed shoot 3 under as well. I remember them interviewing both of them in a break in the action when they were checking arrow placement and I thought he said he was shooting split -- but he said he shot a form of gap that was like a split gap (as opposed to string walking.) But he was shooting 3 under for sure...


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## dnelsen (Dec 11, 2016)

So I gotta hand it to you guys, you were absolutely right.

I tried 3 under for the first time tonight. It felt really strange at first, but within about 45 minutes I was scoring better than I ever have before... and within about 90 minutes it wasn't even feeling strange any more. It really wasn't that big of a deal to change. Overall it was the best scoring session I've ever had, which was a total shock.

What really blew me away was how much my gap on the wall changed. Without changing my anchor at all (forefinger to corner of mouth), the gap went from about 3 feet below the bullseye with split finger, to about 8 inches below the bullseye with 3 under. I had no idea that the change in gap would be so dramatic.

In addition to increasing overall accuracy, for whatever reason 3 under also seems to be more forgiving of errors. The occasional flyer isn't flying so far.

I also really like using a simple finger tab without needing a finger spacer. Much more comfortable.

This is just feeding into my continuing fascination with barebow, so it just makes sense. The new Gillo G2 riser doesn't hurt either 

Thanks to all of you who helped talk me into it. I'm sold. I really doubt I'll be going back.


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## Shotkizer (Nov 3, 2012)

Dug up this thread and after reading Demmer and others, I am going to give 3 under a serious try. Great thread!


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## Hank D Thoreau (Dec 9, 2008)

70 meters and out I am shooting split. I can even shoot 70 meters three under. Other than that, I don't see the upside. I already have to go with heavier arrows at 70 meters to keep my point out of the grass. A sight is a whole other story. If you want to use a sight then split is a viable option. Even a sight has range limitations.


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## Stephen Morley (Aug 11, 2016)

I won world champs shooting split finger against a heap of people shooting 3 under, if you have good Form, aiming system and know your bow then how you hold your string is way down the list.

That out the way, I agree with what has already been said, it's easier to learn 3 under and you will likely progress faster as a beginner.

Once mastered don't think your at some huge disadvantage in a tournament, MANY factors come into play.


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## Draven Olary (Jun 12, 2016)

stephen morley said:


> i won world champs shooting split finger against a heap of people shooting 3 under, if you have good form, aiming system and know your bow then how you hold your string is way down the list.
> 
> That out the way, i agree with what has already been said, it's easier to learn 3 under and you will likely progress faster as a beginner.
> 
> Once mastered don't think your at some huge disadvantage in a tournament, many factors come into play.


^^^ this


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## Stephen Morley (Aug 11, 2016)

At the time I was shooting IFAA Longbow which requires split finger and isn't a disadvantage because of the distances, I had just won European Fields and 5 weeks later went to World Archery 3D champs (30m max), I decided it was better to stick with what I know and have always done i.e if it isn't broke.

Recent years the trend is to shoot 3 under, mainly because the people shooting IBO don't shoot IFAA Field. When you make these equipment and Form choices you have to understand the type of shooting you're going to do and make sure it suits the purpose.


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## DaveHawk (Jul 16, 2009)

I don't know much about traditional archery, except that I shot a lot of rabbits with a fiberglass recurve as a kid. Would someone please tell me what this "gap" is that everyone is talking about? And one more question: Is string walking actually moving your nocking point every time you shoot at different distances? Thanks


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## Stephen Morley (Aug 11, 2016)

Gap is relationship between tip of the arrow and target, the closer you are the bigger the gap, Stringwalking you basically crawl down the string, again shorter the distance bigger the crawl, the advantage is you have tip of the arrow where you want to hit for most shots, ideally you need a modern ILF to make it work effectively, you also need a Tab with marks/stitches so you can count down for each distance. Jimmy Blackmon has some great YouTube videos on Gap and Stringwalking. The top Stringwalkers can give sighted Archers a run for their money on a 3D course, it's very accurate once mastered.


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## DaveHawk (Jul 16, 2009)

So, you are moving your finger position under the arrow, not the nocking point? Ok, now what does ILF stand for? Thanks


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## Shotkizer (Nov 3, 2012)

I have shot split finger for over 32 years...hunting only...instinctive style. It's quite a change to 3 under and I have resorted to aiming some and using the tip as a reference. Then I will shoot 3 under instinctive with success, then take the first shot the next day and even miss the target which almost never happens. Will give it a month and see. I'm seeing groups tighten some but the verdict is still out.


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## Hank D Thoreau (Dec 9, 2008)

DaveHawk said:


> Ok, now what does ILF stand for? Thanks


ILF (International Limb Fitting) is a limb attachment pseudo standard that allows you to mix and match limbs and riser, as long as the manufacturers follow the standard. It started with Olympic bows in the mid 80's with the Hoyt Gold Medalist and has recently become popular in the hunting community. It did not start as a standard. It was Hoyt's design. Hoyt has renamed it's version Grand Prix to distinguish it from it's newer Formula standard.

ILF risers started as 23 and 25 inches with three length of limbs, small, medium and large, resulting in bows from 64 to 70 inches. Today, there are risers from 13 to 27 inches and limbs from XS to XL. 

On characteristic of an ILF bow is that you can adjust the tiller by changing the position of the limb bolts. The limbs actually rock and are loose in the riser until the bow is strung. In this way, ILF bows differ from bolt down three piece bows.

Check out this NUSensei video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=60FNI7Y_TtY


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## kentsabrina (Aug 23, 2017)

Its mainly about ur aiming system

With one finger above the arrow when doing split, u simply cannot do string walk.


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## Don_Parsons (Feb 9, 2018)

Tag for later date


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## kschneider002 (Jul 12, 2016)

I shoot 3 under, but shot split for many years. Both work great if you do your part. Remember what feels the most comfortable to you is usually the best choice!


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