# Second Axis Levelling Question



## jmclfrsh (Dec 23, 2014)

I just purchased a sight with a second and third axis adjustment.

It appears my normal draw cycle cants the riser a couple of degrees from vertical top limb right, or clockwise. Just a hair.

Should I compensate by rotating my sight counterclockwise to center the bubble, or simply use the second axis to ensure the sight is parallel with the riser (which is how it is set up) and instead correct my form to center the bubble?

I'm thinking the latter, but wanted to make sure I'm utilizing it correctly.


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## Mahly (Dec 18, 2002)

Option 3 add a side bar, or if you have one swing it out more and/or add more weight to it.


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## ron w (Jan 5, 2013)

yup, axis should all be true, in relation to the planes of your arrows flight. it's up to you to conform to those axis when aiming so that your line of sight is relative to the arrows flight. adjusting the bubble to show "level" when the bow s canted, will produce variations between line of sight and actual POI of the arrow when shooting up or down hill.


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

Set my bow level in a bow vice with use of a string level on the bow string... Riser are not always easy to level and in some case impossible. If you can and want you can level off the limb pockets or off the limbs, but then will this show the string level, straight up and down? So I go off the bow string and set 2nd axis regardless of dual cam or single cam. 
For 3rd axis you have to have quality bow vice to have tilt forward or backwards and the bow remain level. You want and a carpenter's long level will do to check level of the limbs when tilting forward and backwards. 30 to 35 degree tilt either way will suffice to find and set 3rd axis. I've seen less tilt give outstanding results.


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## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

We need to know if you are using a 5 pin sight or a single pin sliding sight, many companies actually call 1st axis 2nd axis on purpose. So if you have a 5 pin sight or a single pin sight is important to get you going.


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## jmclfrsh (Dec 23, 2014)

I'm using a single-pin CBE Vertex 3D. I do have a side bar (8" with a 10" front) that was centered in a bow vise but I do not think the 3rd Axis was set correctly because when the bow is tilted forward the bubble is off to one side while ensuring the string is vertical using a string level.

I considered just using my bow rest, leaning it down on the tip of the front stabilizer, using a string level to make sure it was vertical and then swinging the front of the sight to the right to center the bubble. But I have not touched it yet.

I was thinking about the second axis while shooting yesterday and realized just what you said; I need to conform to the bow being actually level, not artificially make it appear so by fudging the orientation to appear level. 

I'm taking it back to the shop Tuesday, having them check the timing and reconfirming the 3rd axis level while they are at it

Thank you for the responses, they are much appreciated.


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## huteson2us2 (Jun 22, 2005)

For years, I would set the 1st, 2nd, and third axis. Then and only then, I would cant my 1st axis to get the bow to come back level when drawing. Forcing the bow to level after drawing is as bad as shooting without the bow level. My method is used by many top pros and allowed me to hit a 19 degree downhill 80 yd target at Cascadian Archers in Oregon and the 18 degree 55 yd uphill at Darrington.

In the last 7 years, I have corrected the problem by adding a side stabalizer and adding weight until the bow draws level in my hand. This way no manipulation of the sight is needed.
Trick: At 10 yards pull your bow back pointed at the target with eyes closed. Then open eyes and see how level the bubble is (make sure the 3 axis are set prior to this). If you are right handed, the bow will be canted to the right. Adding a stabalizer to the left side of the bow will make the bow come back more level. Add weights until the bow comes back level all the time. 

If the bow comes back canted to the left for a right handed shooter, then it is a bow hand problem. Had a friend that did this and the problem was that he was twisting the bow tight enough to open a stuck water line. So be sure that your bow hand is relaxed when drawing the bow with your eyes closed.


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## bigHUN (Feb 5, 2006)

I am pre-tuning my 2+1 stabilizers in my basement by hanging the bow just a little bit above the center of mass, 
the most important for me is the L-R side to be in bubble=zero, so when I go to FITA shooting the bubble could be a single washer off by me holding the bow "neutral" and I am tuning the long rod monitoring the float. 
Taking the same setup to the Field I have noticed for first time last week I had to add one and a half more washers to left side (my side of the bow), one washer wasn't enough and two were too much, also I had to take off two washers from the long rod. 
I have noticed lately I started torquing my grip occasionally, I don't like to see this coming to me, feels like I am rusting, me better start some healthier lifestyle 
going jogging right now, 8.20pm looks just perfect after many months of laziness....


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## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

Target Sight Setup:
Setting up a target sight is a huge undertaking and I am sure I am going to leave out some steps but here we go. The fist thing I would do is take a few minutes and extend the sight in and out and find that position where you get the best look at the target if you have never used a target sight and lens before, if you have used one and already know how much to extend it then get it there. Now remove your peep from the string and start shooting up close and work your way back to 35 yards by moving the sight until you are hitting decent, this is not a get the bow dead on thing. It is a get your scope to the 35 yard distance with your perfect anchor thing and once you are there you need to put a piece of masking tape on the string about 1/8 inch thick and now come to anchor and move the masking tape until it matches up with the scope so that you can find your perfect peep setting for 35 yards. For most of us 3d guys we shoot from 20 to 50 yards so 35 yards is a great place to set your peep.
Now lets get this in our head right now, the order of doing our sight setup. It is 2nd then 1st then 3rd. So many people do not have a very solid understanding of a target sight and they screw it up and actually never get it right so do it in that order and you will be good to go. The other thing to get in your head is that the only one that can be done off the bow is the 2nd axis, second axis has nothing do do with the bow being plumb or being at full draw, second axis only has to do with the sight mechanism being perpendicular to the bubble and vertical to the ground.
1. First we are going to do your 2nd axis and you need to get your sight mechanism perfectly vertical, this is the part of the sight that moves up and down and where you attach the sight tape so weather you put your bow in a vice or remove the sight from the bow get the sight mechanism perfectly vertical to the ground using a bubble level The hamskee tool is beyond valuable for this job and I highly recommend it. Now get the bubble on the scope to match the bubble on the sight mechanism and tighten the two bolts and your 2nd axis is done. At no time during the rest of the setup will the 2nd axis change or be tweaked, 2nd axis is not negotiable and must be perfect.
2. Now we are going to do 1st axis, this is negotiable and you have two basic choices. You can choose to shoot with a perfectly vertical bow or you can shoot with a natural cant, the accuracy of the bow is not the factor because the accuracy is the same with a canted or vertical bow. What is important is that you feel perfect and are not fighting the bow so if you have a target bow with front and rear stabs then you can weight them so that the bow is sitting perfect and then you turn the first axis until the bubble is sitting perfect with respect to that stabilizer setup and you are done, most guys set the bow up so that the stabs allow them to feel perfectly balanced when the bow is vertical. If you have a hunting bow then close your eyes and draw the bow and settle in and then open your eyes and there is your natural cant with that particular bow, now rotate the first axis until your bubble is level to that natural cant and then lock down the screws and your bow has been set to your natural cant with the 1st axis.
3. Last but not least is your 3rd axis and it is a cool one that keeps your bubble from lying to you, again the hamskea tool is beyond valuable for this and I strongly suggest that you get one but if you don’t have one just get a welding rod or a bicycle spoke or some perfectly straight piece of wire abut 1 foot long . So hang a plumb line from a door frame or tree or something and then attach the piece of wire to your sight mechanism so it is running parallel to the sight mechanism. So think about it, we need a way to insure that our sight mechanism is perfectly vertical and that the bubble isn’t lying to us so by attaching a foot long piece of stiff wire to the mechanism then we can come to full draw and line up the wire with the plumb line when looking through the peep and that is the proof or check that we need. So come to full draw aiming straight out level and look through the peep and get the wire lined up with the plumb line and check the bubble and it will be perfect, now bend at the waste and aim down at a severe angle simulating a downward shot and line up the wire with the plumb line and see if your bubble is still perfect or lying to you, I do this at about 6 feet or so from the plumb line. More than likely it will be lying to you and the 3rd axis is off so loosen the bolts and adjust it and repeat until you can get the bubble perfect both when level and shooting down hill. What is cool is no matter how much you change the 3rd axis as long as you aim out level to the ground the bubble will be perfect. It is when you aim up or down that the bubble lies to you.
At this point your target sight has been set to the correct extension to give you a good look at the target and then you set the peep to 35 yards and then you set the 2nd 1st and 3rd axis so your sight should be really solid and ready to make a sight tape.


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## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

The first part of that article is more about initial stuff and then I get into the actual setup for your sight, Do Not Take It To A Bow Shop. You must learn how to do this stuff yourself because having a vertex target sight is awesome but unless you totally understand how it works it will screw you more than help you in the long run.

So read over the article above and then when you have a question just ask and I will get you up and running.


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## jmclfrsh (Dec 23, 2014)

THANK YOU SO MUCH Padgett! I am a perfectionist and I will follow those instructions to a T. I'll order the tool, as I'll be shooting bows the rest of my life and Incan set them up to my natural cant, which is a hair top-limb right. 

That will be much better than having to look at the bubble all the time, and not the target with my pin just floating on it. 

Thank you for the complete details, and for taking the time to do so.


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## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

Just a few years ago I thought that you must have the bow perfectly vertical and I actually debated it with one of the hamskea owners at their booth at a asa shoot. Since then I have talked and listened to 
Tim Gillingham many times in person and in videos and I learned the truth about setting up a sight. 

We actually have a good thread on making a sight tape, to see it go to my user name and then click on my latest threads and you will easily find it. I have my personal thoughts through out the thread and there are some other guys that gave their methods also that are slightly different than mine but very good also.

The big thing is second axis, so if you get confused or need some clarification just pm me and I will give you my number and we can talk.


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

I might have missed it.... After all is set there is still a problem and that being moving the sight in and out. Two problems; Left and right issues may exist and up and down issues may exist. Lens set for best view and you shouldn't have to move the sight frame. 
I haven't seen anything to correct for up and down, but there is a hinge type device you mount your sight mounting block to which can eliminate right and left issues. Instructions come with the hinge mount.


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## caspian (Jan 13, 2009)

Mahly said:


> Option 3 add a side bar, or if you have one swing it out more and/or add more weight to it.


this. my 2nd axis adjustments are set up to be dead vertical with the bow. use weighting to control cant.


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## TRUE HUNT (Nov 8, 2006)

Reading info


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## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

This thread happened just before I learned that I was wrong about first axis and since then I have had to go back and rewrite my article on setting up a target sight to make things right. 

We had a good long debate on this subject and you can find it in this sub forum on the subject if you wan't to read through it and make up your own mind. As is stands I learned something and now I still set my 2nd and 3rd axis the same way but I do set the first axis to my vertical riser or bow string and no longer believe that you can use a natural cant. 

Good luck and as these threads pop up where I offered advice on using natural cant I will chime in and correct my old article.


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## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

By the way you mentioned going to the bow shop and having them check the 3rd axis, there is no reason to do that. Just tape a piece of perfectly straight welding rod to your sight and set up a plumb line and check it yourself.


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