# Single bevel vs. Double bevel questions and pros:cons.



## Blake R (Jan 31, 2014)

Single bevel means the head is sharpened on one side of the blade, while a double bevel is sharpened on both sides of the blade.


----------



## DinoDan (Oct 11, 2014)

Single bevel matched to fletching (right bevel - right wing or right helical fletch, left bevel - left wing or left helical fletching) aids flight by increasing spin rate in flight and a boring action not unlike a drill bit upon impact, creating more damage and increased penetration. Also creating larger entrance and exit wounds than the actual width of the BH in many cases. Single bevel is likely to be a two blade configuration. If you want more blades (3 or 4) you would probably need to go double bevel. Some Pros for double bevel include many more BH choices, easier to find and lower cost.


----------



## KingofHeros (Nov 19, 2014)

Does anybody have any recommended single bevel fixed blade broadheads? 
Besides the ashby. These are the ones I plan on using. http://www.amazon.com/NuoYa001-Arch...&qid=1416112333&sr=1-1&keywords=crimson+talon http://www.german-kinetics.com/prod...ndoo_flypage_1.tpl&product_id=8&category_id=1 http://www.amazon.com/Muzzy-Phantom...&qid=1416155590&sr=1-1&keywords=muzzy+phantom


----------



## familyjules (Sep 30, 2014)

Strickland Helix.I would recommend left bevel and left offset fletch or they will loosen on impact.


----------



## mn5503 (Feb 21, 2006)

familyjules said:


> Strickland Helix.I would recommend left bevel and left offset fletch or they will loosen on impact.


I run big time left helical and my heads loosen on impact with field tips in targets and double bevel blades in deer. Making LESS resistance going through the animal. Less energy required to keep the arrow twisting through the entire deer. The blade follows it's natural path after impact, not impeded by the rotation of the arrow.

Buck killed on 11/05 this year with a Rage titanium at 45 yards. 2 ribs on the entry, through the heart, 2 ribs on the exit and through the offside leg before burying 4" in the dirt. When I pulled it out the broadhead was loose. 

Works for me, over and over and over again. Maybe that's why I get pass-throughs when others don't????? There's many schools of thought on this.


----------



## DinoDan (Oct 11, 2014)

TherE are many good BH choices but Strickland Helix is what I use. I went with Helix for Brown Bear hunt this fall because they flew incredible as far a I wanted to shoot which was 80 yards. I killed big brown bear at 50 yards and have shot a few deer. They do the job. Strickland recommend on their website a drop of blue locktite to keep from coming loose. I have not used locktite and mine have not come loose. I torque pretty hard when I put them on. Going left does seem like an option to prevent this from occurring if it is a concern.


----------



## shaffer88 (Dec 3, 2007)

drt dirtnap has some single bevel. heads. resemble the german kinetics


----------



## TimmyZ7 (Aug 11, 2010)

Single bevel heads distinguish themselves from double bevel heads in a number of ways. A single bevel head (sharpened on one side of the blade) has an advantage when encountering bone due to its rotation. Instead of trying to wedge between bone, as a dual bevel would have to, it will bust the bone; literally shattering the area it contacts. In addition, a single bevels design allows it to twist tissue through out the wound channel, such as pasta on a spoon, and slice through a larger amount then a dual bevel moving straight through. The trauma it inflicts therefore is seemingly greater and as a result an "S" or "L" type hide wound will be its signature.

There are two schools of thought as to which is superior. The dual bevel will have a sharper edge and retain it better. The lack of rotation means less resistance. Some consider slicing through much less inhibiting in regards to penetration. 

There are valid contentions on both sides of the argument but my preference, if shooting a fixed blade, would be a 2 blade single bevel that is extremely sharp. Truthfully, anything more than 2 blades goes against the philosophy of a single bevel as it hinders the rotational aspect of it. Do yourself a favor and research both Ashby and Woody Sandfords write ups as to which is better and why. Then you can hear both sides and decide for yourself. Have fun and good luck.


----------



## TimmyZ7 (Aug 11, 2010)

Here is a link to my thread will Woody Sandford's view on the debate. 
http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=2270027


----------



## jjwaldman21 (Oct 15, 2010)

I would rather have a single bevel, but I don't want to spend the $$$ for Ashby's, I can't seem to find Abowyers in stock, and VPA doesn't make a single bevel (but I wish they did).


----------



## mn5503 (Feb 21, 2006)

If single bevel is the way to go for busting through something dense like bone, why are the vast majority of axes and splitting mauls of double bevel design? Have we designed axes that make us work harder on purpose? It also takes more energy to twist something through a softer material like muscle so why not go for maximum penetration with a double bevel? I'm not a Dr. but I find this stuff interesting.


----------



## thirdhandman (Nov 2, 2009)

I'll take a 3 blade Grim Reaper razorTip over a single bevel or a double bevel. The GR' are taken from .030 for the strength then necked down to .020 and then sharpened. The sharper the blade the cleaner the cut and less chance for the blood platelets to clot the hole. The third blade gives 33% more chance of catching an artery. They fly much truer than fixed out of the average bow.


----------



## jjwaldman21 (Oct 15, 2010)

Here you go boys:

http://www.tradrag.com/files/single-bevel-broadheads.pdf


----------



## jjwaldman21 (Oct 15, 2010)

Also, IMO, the reason you wouldn't want a single bevel maul is that the blade will not withstand the repeated pounding that the maul must take. It has a different application than a broadhead. 

If you read through some woodworking threads, you will see a significant amount of broadaxes and hewing axes to be single bevel...

BTW: I shoot a double bevel VPA because I can't find a decent single bevel. I think that single bevels are easier to sharpen as well.


----------



## KingofHeros (Nov 19, 2014)

Bump!


----------



## rayzor43 (Apr 8, 2011)

You'll be hard pressed to find a tougher 2 blade than our VPA double bevels. They are fully machined in one piece from High Carbon Tool Grade Steel and heat treated through had to 54 Rockwell. The ferrule extends all the way to the double tango style tip and is machined to match the cutting angle. This makes them quite the little splitting wedges and the feature is not found on any other brand head.. 

Check out some more of the pics in the VPArchery.com web gallery. Our Prostaffer Adam Greentree has killed close to 400 big game animals on 3 Continents with them in the last 3 years, including a couple Australia Archery No.1s and a pending World Record. That pretty much speaks for itself.

Here's a few pics and one of the 150gr model which he has taken most of those animals with but the 175gr has been on the front of his arrows and taken quite a few too. He has taken No.1 animals with both weights. The Australia No.1 Red Stag was also taken with one of our 150gr 3 blades. It was taken by another member of our Prostaff, Robbie Austen. Adam had taken the previous No.1 Red a year or so earlier. Now the No.1 and no.2 archery Red Stags in Australia were taken with the VPA 150 2 blades. The No. 1, No.2, and No.3 Bentang were taken with our 2 blades as well as he No.1 Asiatic Buffalo (pictured).


----------



## rayzor43 (Apr 8, 2011)

make that through HARD.


----------



## zmanastronomy (Jan 29, 2013)

Double blade ? Single blade ? Both kill. Don't overthink it. Pick one you like and go kill something. Geez.


----------



## TwoInch (Oct 30, 2013)

mn5503 said:


> If single bevel is the way to go for busting through something dense like bone, why are the vast majority of axes and splitting mauls of double bevel design? Have we designed axes that make us work harder on purpose? It also takes more energy to twist something through a softer material like muscle so why not go for maximum penetration with a double bevel? I'm not a Dr. but I find this stuff interesting.


because an ax or maul is only making one cut at a time...

a broadhead is making TWO cuts at one time, and those two cuts, if in a single bevel configuration, impose a "turning" action as it cuts. when this "turning" action contacts bone, the two edges grab and turn in the cut, forcing the two sides of the material(bone) apart. think of sticking an ax in the end of a log, and instead of hitting the back of the ax to force the log apart, you push the handle of the ax to the side, causing the blade to force the two halves of the log apart...

the double bevel must be pushed through the bone by shear force and nothing else. the single bevel uses that force to push the bone into two pieces, by wedge action, caused by the rotation induced by the two blades being biased in the same direction.

make sense? hard to explain without visual aids.

for the single bevel broadhead to achieve these types of results in heavy bone, where its needed, the arrow must be carrying a bunch of momentum. this means that average whitetail hunters arrows arent sufficient, and will not be able to create the desired results. heavy arrows, generally well above 500 grains are needed to allow the broadhead to do its job.


----------



## salmon killer (Jun 19, 2011)

Anarchy makes a great single bevel broadhead.


----------



## Norwegian Woods (Apr 23, 2006)

rayzor43 said:


> You'll be hard pressed to find a tougher 2 blade than our VPA double bevels. They are fully machined in one piece from High Carbon Tool Grade Steel and heat treated through had to 54 Rockwell. The ferrule extends all the way to the double tango style tip and is machined to match the cutting angle. This makes them quite the little splitting wedges and the feature is not found on any other brand head..
> 
> Check out some more of the pics in the VPArchery.com web gallery. Our Prostaffer Adam Greentree has killed close to 400 big game animals on 3 Continents with them in the last 3 years, including a couple Australia Archery No.1s and a pending World Record. That pretty much speaks for itself.
> 
> Here's a few pics and one of the 150gr model which he has taken most of those animals with but the 175gr has been on the front of his arrows and taken quite a few too. He has taken No.1 animals with both weights. The Australia No.1 Red Stag was also taken with one of our 150gr 3 blades. It was taken by another member of our Prostaff, Robbie Austen. Adam had taken the previous No.1 Red a year or so earlier. Now the No.1 and no.2 archery Red Stags in Australia were taken with the VPA 150 2 blades. The No. 1, No.2, and No.3 Bentang were taken with our 2 blades as well as he No.1 Asiatic Buffalo (pictured).


Still I wish you could make a single bevel version of your 2-blade.


----------



## alwayslookin (May 28, 2003)

Single bevels are much oversold for potential.
Their edge is weaker, there is no way to optimize spin rate based on speed of launch....meaning the rate of pitch of the fletching may not equal the spin rate achieved by the fletching, and in most cases the resistance of the material they will be hitting will be greater than the momentum of the spin.
If you look at the point of ANY single bevel.....it is a double bevel ...as are the tanto type tips on a double bevel........this is what gives the bone splitting mechanical advantage.
The good news is that either will work just fine .....and in a case of theoretical advantage......the shot hit where it was not intended and a mess will be a mess.
I am with Rayzor on this one , as when I was with Steel Force.....the double bevel 190 African proved to be the best head in every penetration test we could muster....including the single bevels. And the edge weakness of every single bevel we tested was apparent when compared to a double bevel of similar or exact design.


----------



## Kansas Bruisers (Dec 14, 2006)

KingofHeros said:


> Does anybody have any recommended single bevel fixed blade broadheads?
> Besides the ashby. These are the ones I plan on using. http://www.amazon.com/NuoYa001-Arch...&qid=1416112333&sr=1-1&keywords=crimson+talon http://www.german-kinetics.com/prod...ndoo_flypage_1.tpl&product_id=8&category_id=1 http://www.amazon.com/Muzzy-Phantom...&qid=1416155590&sr=1-1&keywords=muzzy+phantom


Check out the Strickland Helix. I bought some last year and killed my buck with it, awesome results. I bought 3 DRT single bevels this year to see how they perform, haven't taken a shot yet.


----------



## KingofHeros (Nov 19, 2014)

Which bevel tends to get deeper penetration overall?


----------



## KingofHeros (Nov 19, 2014)

And also which direction is better for single bevel? Left or Right?


----------



## Beendare (Jan 31, 2006)

I've seen tests where the double bevel splits bone just as well as the single bevel [its on another forum so no linky]

*The thing to consider about double vs. single is the single bevel is less supported [thinner edge] than a double bevel. This is the reason knives have been sharpened with a double bevel for centuries- they figured it out that a knife will hold an edge better/longer- same with a BH.*

No problem using a single bevel head but for it to be effective it needs to be a better steel and Rockwell temper than the equivalent double bevel.


----------



## alwayslookin (May 28, 2003)

TwoInch said:


> because an ax or maul is only making one cut at a time...
> 
> a broadhead is making TWO cuts at one time, and those two cuts, if in a single bevel configuration, impose a "turning" action as it cuts. when this "turning" action contacts bone, the two edges grab and turn in the cut, forcing the two sides of the material(bone) apart. think of sticking an ax in the end of a log, and instead of hitting the back of the ax to force the log apart, you push the handle of the ax to the side, causing the blade to force the two halves of the log apart...
> 
> ...


I question the ability of any arrow to contain enough of this rotational energy to utilize said mechanical advantage....from experience and just general intuition. I am interested to hear your thoughts. It is a question that perplexed me simply because Dr. Ashby never determined scientifically the force it would take (on average) to accomplish his desired results nor the actual mechanical advantage the single bevel design had. I applaud his effort and really like his work.....I just can not repeat the same results and have a hard time believing that the linear momentum of an arrow is not FAR greater a force than the supposed rotational energy that is utilized to separate the bone.
Your analogy of single cut vs. rotational cut (the splitting maul) would suggest that if getting through hard media was better accomplished with a rotational cut....would not the maul be designed to do the same thing?
I am not saying it is not the case.....just asking opinions from others to better grasp it.


----------



## KRONIIK (Jun 3, 2014)

alwayslookin said:


> I question the ability of any arrow to contain enough of this rotational energy to utilize said mechanical advantage....from experience and just general intuition. I am interested to hear your thoughts. It is a question that perplexed me simply because Dr. Ashby never determined scientifically the force it would take (on average) to accomplish his desired results nor the actual mechanical advantage the single bevel design had. I applaud his effort and really like his work.....I just can not repeat the same results and have a hard time believing that the linear momentum of an arrow is not FAR greater a force than the supposed rotational energy that is utilized to separate the bone.
> Your analogy of single cut vs. rotational cut (the splitting maul) would suggest that if getting through hard media was better accomplished with a rotational cut....would not the maul be designed to do the same thing?
> I am not saying it is not the case.....just asking opinions from others to better grasp it.


You're misinterpreting what happens when a single-bevel hits bone. It's not using the pre-existing rotation of the arrow in flight to split the bone; it's using the linear momentum of the arrow transferred through the bevel angle to twist the broadhead through the bone, tending to split it more than a similar double-bevel would. 

You are correct about the spinning rotation of the in-flight arrow being unable in itself to wreck bone-there isn't enough momentum in that spin energy to perform any significant damage. The arrow will simply stop spinning upon encountering any significant resistance to such-UNLESS some of the linear momentum is used to impart more torque upon impact, which *is* what occurs on a single-bevel impact. 

In other words, a single bevel broadhead could in theory be mounted on an arrow fletched with helical vanes opposite the bevel side of the broadhead. 
This arrow would fly more or less without any rotation in flight, (the vanes counteracting the wind resistance of the bevel.) 

But it *would* begin to rotate as soon as it began to plow through flesh and bone-it can't *help* but do so.


----------



## Beendare (Jan 31, 2006)

KRONIIK said:


> You're misinterpreting what happens when a single-bevel hits bone. It's not using the pre-existing rotation of the arrow in flight to split the bone; it's using the linear momentum of the arrow transferred through the bevel angle to twist the broadhead through the bone, tending to split it more than a similar double-bevel would.


Reading an awful lot into the single bevel thing...as its been done with double bevels too.

Wouldn't the shape if the head have more of an influence- as in physics; leverage and mechanical advantage?


----------



## KRONIIK (Jun 3, 2014)

Look, I'm not saying that a double-bevel can't split bone to some extent-it certainly can.
But one side of the blade offsets the wedging and twisting effect of the other, *generally* limiting the potential width of the split to *approximately* the diameter of the ferrule. (5/16" or so ,which isn't necessarily a bad thing!)
In the exact same scenario but using a single-bevel, the *entire head* twists through, increasing the potential width of the split to approximately the width of the entire head, (1-1/4 or so) which isn't necessarily a good thing, (but IMO *usually*) is.

But I think we can all agree that either can be almost 100% effective if the bow is of adequate power, the arrow fast and heavy enough, shot placement good, and the Broadhead sharp and sturdy enough.


----------



## TwoInch (Oct 30, 2013)

kronik, i would disagree that mismatched bevel and helical would counter-act each other. the fletching will always over power the bevel. and turn the arrow in the helical direction. the tiny surface area of a sharpened single bevel imparts very little spin. the reason you want them to match is more theoretical than practical. the bevel would need to be quite large to impart much spin at all, and it owuld need to be a a much steeper angle than most 3 to 1 ratio heads give.

as for the the spin induced through flesh and bone, you are correct, has nothing to do with the rotation of the arrow before it touches the hard medium of flesh and bone. the forward momentum is converted into rotational force of the bevels, or levers.

think of slicing a steak with a regular double bevel knife. you can make a nice clean, straight cut.

now think of a knife sharpened to a single bevel. that knife will always make a crooked cut through a steak. the single bevel forces the knife to one side, and the meat to the other side. with two opposing single bevels, this translates to rotation.

AlwaysLookin, i am in no way promoting the single bevel. i am just explaining the mechanics of a single bevel blade, which is well understood, and applied to many edged tools other than broadheads. IMO, single bevel broadheads are a neat idea, but i have yet to try them. the concept is proven though, so i cant argue against it. i cant speak for the effectiveness when compared to double bevel blades in a regular hunting situations.

i would like to add though, that a single bevel DOES NOT have to be a weaker edge, comparing same materials in both. a 25* edge is a 25* edge no matter which side you sharpen.


----------



## Irish66 (Feb 11, 2007)

Helix 200 single bevel. Awesome head and flies like FP with ease. Anything you hit on an animal will not damage the edges on this head.


----------



## mn5503 (Feb 21, 2006)

I'm just sticking with really sharp blades. Comes a time when things get way overthought


----------



## Norwegian Woods (Apr 23, 2006)

TwoInch said:


> kronik, i would disagree that mismatched bevel and helical would counter-act each other. the fletching will always over power the bevel. and turn the arrow in the helical direction. the tiny surface area of a sharpened single bevel imparts very little spin. the reason you want them to match is more theoretical than practical. the bevel would need to be quite large to impart much spin at all, and it owuld need to be a a much steeper angle than most 3 to 1 ratio heads give.
> 
> as for the the spin induced through flesh and bone, you are correct, has nothing to do with the rotation of the arrow before it touches the hard medium of flesh and bone. the forward momentum is converted into rotational force of the bevels, or levers.
> 
> ...


I agree with all you say.
I don't know how many times I shake my head reading peoples view on single bevel broadgheads on this forum and it is clear they really don't have much knowledge about how they work and often claim facts about them that are false.
Some read Ashby's findings and view as gospel and others tend to make fun of it all.
There are no doubt that no one else is even close to have done that much real life testing as he has done.

Both single and double bevel penetrate soft tissue easily.
Both single and double bevel penetrates thinner bones easily.
Some double bevel broadheads like the 2-blade VPA generally penetrates heavier bones with a proper setup.
Some single bevel broadheads don't do so well on heavier bones because the blades are to thin to make the single bevel design work as intended.
Well designed single bevel broadheads do even better on heavier bones as they split the bones properly, making it much easier for the broadhead and arrow to pass through the bone.
Remember that an animal will move at the shot, resulting in that the bones easier scratches along the arrow shaft resulting in high friction and less penetration when only a smaller hole is punched through the bone compared with a split bone.
It is not like when you test it on some static test material.

Then the question is if you really need a single bevel broadhead for deer hunting and in my opinion you don't need that most of the time.
It is only when a setup that might have problems to have enough KE and momentum to break bones properly to get good penetration with a 2-blade, a single bevel might give an advantage.
For my girlfriend and my kids I would love to have them using a VPA single bevel version of their 2-blade if they would make one.
And I would like to use it myself for buffs.

So I prefer a high quality single bevel 2-blade for some setups and critters and I like double bevels for other setups and critters.


----------



## bambikiller (Feb 27, 2004)

Norwegian Woods said:


> I agree with all you say.
> I don't know how many times I shake my head reading peoples view on single bevel broadgheads on this forum and it is clear they really don't have much knowledge about how they work and often claim facts about them that are false.
> Some read Ashby's findings and view as gospel and others tend to make fun of it all.
> There are no doubt that no one else is even close to have done that much real life testing as he has done.
> ...


Best post of the thread couldn't have said it any better


----------



## KRONIIK (Jun 3, 2014)

TwoInch said:


> kronik, i would disagree that mismatched bevel and helical would counter-act each other. the fletching will always over power the bevel. and turn the arrow in the helical direction. the tiny surface area of a sharpened single bevel imparts very little spin. the reason you want them to match is more theoretical than practical. the bevel would need to be quite large to impart much spin at all, and it owuld need to be a a much steeper angle than most 3 to 1 ratio heads give.
> 
> as for the the spin induced through flesh and bone, you are correct, has nothing to do with the rotation of the arrow before it touches the hard medium of flesh and bone. the forward momentum is converted into rotational force of the bevels, or levers.
> 
> ...


 I agree with pretty much everything you noted except the first sentence. 
You missed my point -it was presented merely as a theoretical concept to illustrate the mechanics/physics involved, assuming the bevel imparts at least SOME flight spin to the shaft. (Very little-but some.)

It could certainly be accomplished by incrementally adjusting the degree of vane offset from dead-straight until the broadhead's bevel-induced spin of the shaft was negated to zero.

You're probably correct in assuming that the value of matching bevel to vane offset is more theoretical than practical.


----------



## Daave (Jul 22, 2005)

mn5503 said:


> I'm just sticking with really sharp blades. Comes a time when things get way overthought


Yup X2. Spend your money on some more arrows rather than expensive single bevels


----------



## KRONIIK (Jun 3, 2014)

mn5503 said:


> I'm just sticking with really sharp blades. Comes a time when things get way overthought


Until you find yourself reading post after post after post about some shmuck that hit a big deer in the shoulder and lost it, with only two inches of penetration.
Usually the same guy who refuses to believe that maybe his 402 grain arrow setup just may not be quite adequate for some tasks, because his buddy's 399 grain arrow passed RIGHT THROUGH a 99 pound doe two years in a row! 
:embara:

FWIW- Razor sharp edges are not exclusive to any particular style and a no-brainer for any responsible hunter.


----------



## mn5503 (Feb 21, 2006)

KRONIIK said:


> Until you find yourself reading post after post after post about some shmuck that hit a big deer in the shoulder and lost it, with only two inches of penetration.
> Usually the same guy who refuses to believe that maybe his 402 grain arrow setup just may not be quite adequate for some tasks, because his buddy's 399 grain arrow passed RIGHT THROUGH a 99 pound doe two years in a row!
> :embara:
> 
> FWIW- Razor sharp edges are not exclusive to any particular style and a no-brainer for any responsible hunter.



Maybe we should all trade in our bows for .300win mags if we want to positively crush shoulders? Most bow set ups, no matter how great the arrow and broadhead are, will have problems with the shot you're referencing.


----------



## KRONIIK (Jun 3, 2014)

mn5503 said:


> Maybe we should all trade in our bows for .300win mags if we want to positively crush shoulders? Most bow set ups, no matter how great the arrow and broadhead are, will have problems with the shot you're referencing.


 You're right, "most" archery setups will have problems with a deer's shoulder. 
Some of us won't settle for "most".


----------



## salmon killer (Jun 19, 2011)

I used double bevel 2 blade broadheads for many years with very good results with arrow weighing from 600grs to 400grs have been using single bevel for a couple years I have only killed a turkey but my son and other hunting buddy have killed several elk, deer, and hogs with the single bevel the last couple years with great results I have seen the animals and the arrow path of destruction is impressive.A very sharp cut on contact 2 blade is always a good choice no matter the bevel.


----------



## rayzor43 (Apr 8, 2011)

More than one way to skin a cat..... or break bones. That single bevel twist everyone talks about puts those same stresses on the head its and changes the bending moment of the head. If the metallurgy isn't right that head may just break as quick as the bones. Personally (and the reason our double bevels were designed the way they were) I'll pass on the twisting motion. That tanto style that is carried through our entire head was well proven long before any of us were on this earth. It still works. Want a little more assurance of penetration bones put a little weight behind it and have a tough arrow that is smaller in diameter than the hole the ferrule leaves. Forget all these ultra light for speed setups.

We previously designed a single bevel head with the blades offset to help strengthen it to resist the stresses and had them in our line up for a year or so. They worked well and we never had a report of breakage. There wasn't really anything we could do about the weaker edges of the single bevel short of going to an alloy that would ultimately run the price up to a couple hundred bucks a pack which we knew wouldn't sell. Ultimately we discontinued them because we just don't want a single bevel in our line up. 

If someone is hell bent on using a single bevel check out the new one from Rocky Mountain Specialty Gear. I know they are made well  . Medicine Bear/Badger is another relatively new one on the market. They have a offset blade design similar to what our discontinued models had.


----------



## Beendare (Jan 31, 2006)

Good post Rayzor

Do you guys think the BH spins through the animal like a corkscrew? 

I've seen a lot of wound channels and have never seen a corkscrew.....

You guys think the leverage of a single bevel is more than the mechanical advantage of the heads shape? No way. A tapered head acts as a lever much more than 1/2 of the blade thickness- its just another gimmick.

Just look at the tapered ferrule of the VPA 2 blades....its no wonder they perform well on bones. Best way to visualize the physics of what I describe is picture a wedge in a chunk of firewood....thats mechanical advantage.


----------



## TimmyZ7 (Aug 11, 2010)




----------



## jjwaldman21 (Oct 15, 2010)

I have not been able to find a quality single bevel to cause me to make a switch from the VPA penetrators.


----------



## Kansas Bruisers (Dec 14, 2006)

Beendare said:


> Good post Rayzor
> 
> Do you guys think the BH spins through the animal like a corkscrew?
> 
> I've seen a lot of wound channels and have never seen a corkscrew


I killed a big bodied buck last year with a 100 grain Strickland Helix and total arrow weight of 370-380 grains at 60lbs and 28" draw. It was a double lung shot right behind the shoulder and it spun through the buck. It made a good wound channel through the lungs and ripped holes in the lungs outside the wound channel, it also made the "L" shape cut on the exit wound. The things Dr.Ashby described is what I found in my buck. 

I had concerns about the weight of my arrows and how well a single bevel would work but it performed better than expected. I bought some DRT single bevels this year to try but so far haven't released an arrow yet.

Next year I am going to buy either 125 or 150 grain Helix and buy heavier arrows with a stiffer spine and see how they perform. I'd like to be over 500 grains.


----------



## rayzor43 (Apr 8, 2011)

I kinda like this pic. I shot several hundred arrows into Ballistic Gel this summer doing some light draw testing for an article. I didn't compare with ay other heads. I did see rotation. More on some, less on others. This is the compact VPA 150 2 blade. It seemed to have the most. Shot from an Athens Convixtion set to 42# @ 27.5". Wound channel looked like cut with a spade bit. 

We could go back and forth all day long as Dr. Ashby wants to sell you on his design and I ours. He says twisting, we say splitting. I wish Adam Grenntree would write a report with his opinions after taking several hundred animals in the last couple years with our design. Like I said, more than one way to skin a cat. We all know any broadhead through the heart or both lungs equals quick death. What equipment you feel most comfortable with doing that for you is up to you. 


You can always try both types. Ours are satisfaction guaranteed.


----------



## rayzor43 (Apr 8, 2011)

I just watched the 12 minutes of the video. Noticed that Navy Seal knife also has the Tanto design. Seems they like the proven penetration of the centuries proven features of the Tanto for penetration. Ditto for many fighting knives and swords.


----------



## KingofHeros (Nov 19, 2014)

Does anybody know of some outstanding Double bevel broadheads?
Say.. there was a giant dragon that appeared in the sky and some mystic voice gave you a super bow, super hard arrow, and the choice of 1 double bevel broadhead to shoot at its vitals.
What broadhead would you have chosen?
(I know the example is completely fake, but lets keep the broadheads real).


----------



## KRONIIK (Jun 3, 2014)

Beendare said:


> Good post Rayzor
> 
> Do you guys think the BH spins through the animal like a corkscrew?
> 
> ...


Every broadhead I can think of has some sort a ferrule tapering up to shaft diameter that will eventually split something you drive it through if it doesn't break first.

Do me a favor before you continue speculating on how something probably doesn't work:
Take two old wood chisel and grind each of them to a vee. Then grind two bevels on both sides of one, like a double bevel broadhead, and on only opposing sides of the other, similar to a single-bevel broadhead.
Now set each across the grain a couple feet away from each other on the same 2x4 and drive them completely thorough with a 4-pound sledge.
Try it again in fresh wood, but this time orient them in line with the grain and report your findings.


----------



## bambikiller (Feb 27, 2004)

KingofHeros said:


> Does anybody know of some outstanding Double bevel broadheads?
> Say.. there was a giant dragon that appeared in the sky and some mystic voice gave you a super bow, super hard arrow, and the choice of 1 double bevel broadhead to shoot at its vitals.
> What broadhead would you have chosen?
> (I know the example is completely fake, but lets keep the broadheads real).


Vpa all day


----------



## sethro02 (Jul 5, 2008)

I tried not opening this thread but I did... Some mis construed information, some good info, some saying shoot whatever because it's just a whitetail because they all kill. OP asked what pros or cons...flat out a single bevel penetrates bone better than a double bevel....same arrow , same weight, same cutting diameter except one is single and one is double, the single will do better. This btw is not new technology it has been around since people started hunting. The MEDIUM that said broadhead is shot into forces it to twist by applying pressure to the bevel ( fact) . On a double bevel , the bevels "fight" each other making it stay straight and cause them to "slice " through and not "twist " through. Yes there are good solid double bevel fixed heads out there that may have "blew" through your buddies buddies buddies deer shoulder but you have to take everything into consideration when something is shot at. How close , how much draw weight, arrow weight etc etc. my 70# bow with 575 grain hunting arrow can damn near shove any head through anything but that won't ever make lose sight of what is reality. Yes everything can kill in all types of situations, the 2 blade single bevel is a worst case scenario broadhead. There ability to out penetrate through tough mediums is unmatched. There is really not one thing that a double bevel 2 blade is better at...some will argue blade retention which isn't a good argument, for one thing a single bevel "feels" less sharp because of the backside not being sharpened, this affects nothing. So let's sum it up... 2 bh's everything the same except bevels what does a double bevel do better? Flight? No, durability? Depends on head the bevels usually aren't the problem in durability. Price? Maybe double bevel,you can buy the helix for like $50 so not too far off. Penetration? No. Will they both kill? Yes. What do you want on a bad shot that could encounter tough bone on large or dangerous game? Single bevel


----------



## sethro02 (Jul 5, 2008)

Don't get me wrong a lot of good double bevel heads, Vpa being the toughest one built by far...but single bevel is what it is, a bone splitting broadhead that makes good wound channels compared to other 2 blades the same size . As for the ax / maul question? An ax is a wedge, sharp at the point allowing it to wedge in the wood. If you had a single bevel ax you would have sore wrists from it trying to twist left or right. Match your offset or helical to right or left bevel ,,, most cases will be right bevel, shoot straight fletch arrows to see how they fly from your rig naturally then match that, no reason to counteract what your bow "wants " to shoot, one more thing you have to have .062" thick blade to adequately spit bone so anarchys do not split with there blade, there beveled ferrule does all the work while the blade gets severely damaged


----------



## bambikiller (Feb 27, 2004)

sethro02 said:


> Don't get me wrong a lot of good double bevel heads, Vpa being the toughest one built by far...but single bevel is what it is, a bone splitting broadhead that makes good wound channels compared to other 2 blades the same size . As for the ax / maul question? An ax is a wedge, sharp at the point allowing it to wedge in the wood. If you had a single bevel ax you would have sore wrists from it trying to twist left or right. Match your offset or helical to right or left bevel ,,, most cases will be right bevel, shoot straight fletch arrows to see how they fly from your rig naturally then match that, no reason to counteract what your bow "wants " to shoot, one more thing you have to have .062" thick blade to adequately spit bone so anarchys do not split with there blade, there beveled ferrule does all the work while the blade gets severely damaged


They don't want to listen .. It's not like we at team overkill test everything all year round .. We know nothing .. Their brothers uncles cousins friend said different and is the gospel . Light arrows and huge cut work regardless of poundage . And I made a perfect shot but no blood .. No penetration .. No deer .. But it's the bh fault .. Although a field tip through the kill zone will kill a deer .. No no it because the blades didn't open or if I wasn't shooting "x" .. Bro no one wants to listen . I get tired of these threads . You offer great info and fact an it's discounted on some Jo shmoes opinion because he blasted through a deer with a 300 grain arrow and a 2.5 in mech . While not hitting anything other than flesh


----------



## sethro02 (Jul 5, 2008)

bambikiller said:


> They don't want to listen .. It's not like we at team overkill test everything all year round .. We know nothing .. Their brothers uncles cousins friend said different and is the gospel . Light arrows and huge cut work regardless of poundage . And I made a perfect shot but no blood .. No penetration .. No deer .. But it's the bh fault .. Although a field tip through the kill zone will kill a deer .. No no it because the blades didn't open or if I wasn't shooting "x" .. Bro no one wants to listen . I get tired of these threads . You offer great info and fact an it's discounted on some Jo shmoes opinion because he blasted through a deer with a 300 grain arrow and a 2.5 in mech . While not hitting anything other than flesh


Couldn't have said it better!


----------



## rayzor43 (Apr 8, 2011)

This one split pretty well a few weeks ago. Adam's Montana Elk offside leg. He was using VPA 150 2 blade. One of my prototype CTR-Punch footed outserts, VAP 300 spine V1s, Hoyt Carbon Spyder Turbo 70#.

The other is same pic I posted earlier. From the offset leg of a Red Stag. Again VPA 2 Blade 150. That time on front of VAP with their outsert and he was shooting a 70# carbon Matrix back then as I recall.

The pending Aussie No.1 and World Record Bentang he shot a couple weeks ago was straight through the shoulder. They are big tough animals. He was using the same set up as the elk other than he had one of our 175 2 Blades up front.

Our double bevels will split bones. Our Bone Splitting Performance slogan and the head's Penetrator nickname came from the field. That pic I posted of the 150 in Ballistic Gel shows the spin of that one pretty clearly. It actually surprised me. Their performance in the field is why we've sold thousands more of that model in Australia than any of our other 40 or so models.


----------



## rayzor43 (Apr 8, 2011)

Offside that should read. I hate autocorrect.


----------



## bambikiller (Feb 27, 2004)

rayzor43 said:


> This one split pretty well a few weeks ago. Adam's Montana Elk offside leg. He was using VPA 150 2 blade. One of my prototype CTR-Punch footed outserts, VAP 300 spine V1s, Hoyt Carbon Spyder Turbo 70#.
> 
> The other is same pic I posted earlier. From the offset leg of a Red Stag. Again VPA 2 Blade 150. That time on front of VAP with their outsert and he was shooting a 70# carbon Matrix back then as I recall.
> 
> ...


Your bh's are undoubtedly the tanks of the bh world . There is no doubt on the bone splitting performance . Any plans for 1.5 150 grain two blade


----------



## rayzor43 (Apr 8, 2011)

Actually look like Adam was not using VAPs back then with the Red Stag.


----------



## sethro02 (Jul 5, 2008)

Rayzor I love your heads, still have all the ones you sent me. I think two factors that makes yours standout compared to others is that they are machined one piece and do not fall apart or bend on impact allowing it to stay on track and not glance off or lose momentum. That's an impressive stag. He was was shooting a setup that allows him to pretty much kill whatever. I know your heads have that potential but there are few and far between fixed doubl bevels that can encounter heavy bone and stay together.


----------



## sethro02 (Jul 5, 2008)

I'll be doing some testing on 2" femurs again after deer season on request of a certain bh company. I'll have some leftover for sure that I will test other heads on, Vpa being one of them. Then shoot a mechanical or two and a couple other popular fixed heads. I'll be sure to post the pictures.


----------



## Mrcnwlvrn (Feb 24, 2014)

Tagged


----------



## Norwegian Woods (Apr 23, 2006)

sethro02 said:


> Rayzor I love your heads, still have all the ones you sent me. I think two factors that makes yours standout compared to others is that they are machined one piece and do not fall apart or bend on impact allowing it to stay on track and not glance off or lose momentum. That's an impressive stag. He was was shooting a setup that allows him to pretty much kill whatever. I know your heads have that potential but there are few and far between fixed doubl bevels that can encounter heavy bone and stay together.


I totally agree.
I am also saying that the VPA 2-blade broadheads are some of the best you can buy, specially when it comes to double bevel broadheads.
This is the reason for why I would love them to make some single bevels of the same quality.

And to make it clear.
I don't consider that testing broadheads in gel is a good way to predict how it will perform in an animal.
It works well for bullets, but is rather useless when it comes to broadheads.
I am also not saying that a double bevel can't split heavy bones, but it is clear that a high quality single bevel with enough blade thickness will do it better.

And even if I am not an official member of Team Overkill, do I in many ways live by the same ideas when it comes to hunting with a bow


----------



## bambikiller (Feb 27, 2004)

Norwegian Woods said:


> I totally agree.
> I am also saying that the VPA 2-blade broadheads are some of the best you can buy, specially when it comes to double bevel broadheads.
> This is the reason for why I would love them to make some single bevels of the same quality.
> 
> ...


I see what you did there


----------



## rayzor43 (Apr 8, 2011)

1 1/2 cut aren't in the cards. Several reasons. Tough to get on that big that light. See what it took for us to get them down to 100 in the 1 1 /8" cut. It will take that on 150 for 1 1/4" . Also tooling 1 1/4" is about max for the design without have to buy custom tooling. Between the extra cost for tool, material and machine time, they'd like be $150 or more a pack by the time they reached the customer. Needless to say not a wide market so we wouldn't even try. Likely will be a 1 1/4" 150 at some point. 

Our Aussie Fieldstaffer Will Ellen is releasing a new line of mice diameter arrows. He sent me a link to a video blasting one tipped with a VPA 125 2 blade through a femora bone. Cant remember if it was a buff or cow. I'll have to see if I can post a link.


----------



## rayzor43 (Apr 8, 2011)

I just looked at the video again. It was one of our 150 2 blades rather than a 125 he had on front of it. Blew out the backside of that bone pretty well. His new arrow line is called RUSH. Hope to get my hands on some soon. I like that they are available in 350 spine.

You guys can email me at [email protected] or [email protected] if you want to see the video. Don't think I can post a MP4 file here. Let me know if I'm wrong. I need get him to post it to Youtube.


----------



## KRONIIK (Jun 3, 2014)

rayzor43 said:


> This one split pretty well a few weeks ago. Adam's Montana Elk offside leg. He was using VPA 150 2 blade. One of my prototype CTR-Punch footed outserts, VAP 300 spine V1s, Hoyt Carbon Spyder Turbo 70#.
> 
> The other is same pic I posted earlier. From the offset leg of a Red Stag. Again VPA 2 Blade 150. That time on front of VAP with their outsert and he was shooting a 70# carbon Matrix back then as I recall.
> 
> ...


Anyone reading my posts would correctly assume that I somewhat prefer single bevels, but I wouldn't hesitate to use THAT double-bevel on anything. 
Obviously one of the finest TOUGH broadheads on the market. 

(AND good solid construction is one thing I will NOT compromise on.) 


Curious- what kind of total arrow weight does your Banteng-slayer shoot?


----------



## KingofHeros (Nov 19, 2014)

Bump!


----------



## KRONIIK (Jun 3, 2014)

One more bump.


----------



## nick060200 (Jul 5, 2010)

http://www.rmsgear.com/store/pc/viewPrd.asp?idproduct=2824&idcategory=99

these heads were mentioned and look great, i emailed the guy making them and he said 4-6 weeks more will be available along with a right bevel.
im thinking some .300 spine GT velocity arrows tipped with these. that would make a total arrow weight of about 485gr with 19+% FOC.

hey seth, ever see these? plans on testing them?


----------



## bambikiller (Feb 27, 2004)

nick060200 said:


> http://www.rmsgear.com/store/pc/viewPrd.asp?idproduct=2824&idcategory=99
> 
> these heads were mentioned and look great, i emailed the guy making them and he said 4-6 weeks more will be available along with a right bevel.
> im thinking some .300 spine GT velocity arrows tipped with these. that would make a total arrow weight of about 485gr with 19+% FOC.
> ...


Looks similar to a vpa only single bevel ..


----------



## jjwaldman21 (Oct 15, 2010)

Hmmm, I would like to hear how the quality of the cutthroat compares to a vpa...I like the look of that one...


----------



## nick060200 (Jul 5, 2010)

blades are .070" thick, so its stout.


----------



## sethro02 (Jul 5, 2008)

nick060200 said:


> http://www.rmsgear.com/store/pc/viewPrd.asp?idproduct=2824&idcategory=99
> 
> these heads were mentioned and look great, i emailed the guy making them and he said 4-6 weeks more will be available along with a right bevel.
> im thinking some .300 spine GT velocity arrows tipped with these. that would make a total arrow weight of about 485gr with 19+% FOC.
> ...


They are stout looking, they need lighter weights and right bevel or they will zero heads IMO. Id love to shoot them at bone. I'm curious why there logo is a fish?? Lol


----------



## Norwegian Woods (Apr 23, 2006)

jjwaldman21 said:


> Hmmm, I would like to hear how the quality of the cutthroat compares to a vpa...I like the look of that one...


Same.


----------



## snoman4 (Jul 1, 2011)

sethro02 said:


> They are stout looking, they need lighter weights and right bevel or they will zero heads IMO. Id love to shoot them at bone. I'm curious why there logo is a fish?? Lol


It is a cutthroat trout brother that would be my guess why the name...ROFL


----------



## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

sethro02 said:


> They are stout looking, they need lighter weights and right bevel or they will zero heads IMO. Id love to shoot them at bone. I'm curious why there logo is a fish?? Lol


It's a traditional equipment company.  Their target market wants heavier heads. They'd be smart to offer left AND right bevel though.


----------



## nick060200 (Jul 5, 2010)

4-6 weeks right bevel will be available, i asked the maker. thats what he told me. not sure if there are plans for a lighter weight but i wouldn't think so. these are traditional guys like henro said, they dont want light weight heads. im gonna order some when available. i can make a velocity xt arrow under 500gr.


----------



## nick060200 (Jul 5, 2010)

http://rmsgear.blogspot.com/

here is why they used the cutthroat trout as their logo.


----------



## nick060200 (Jul 5, 2010)

nick060200 said:


> 4-6 weeks right bevel will be available, i asked the maker. thats what he told me. not sure if there are plans for a lighter weight but i wouldn't think so. these are traditional guys like henro said, they dont want light weight heads. im gonna order some when available. i can make a velocity xt arrow under 500gr.


actually in that blog it says they will have different weights available. so maybe a 150-175gr?????


----------



## Beendare (Jan 31, 2006)

Sethro,
I respect your posts but at this point we will have to agree we disagree. The twisting motion you describe with the single bevel- if any- is secondary to the actual physics- the mechanical advantage of the head design- thus the superior performance of a head like the VPA's- its undeniable. I've seen bone splitting myself on large critters like elk and australian Water Buffalo, bowsite has shown the same in a test on cape buffalo- all with double bevel heads.

If you have it in your mind the single bevel is the way to go- then use then with little disadvantage. What the BH and knife companies know and its the reason most of these tools are double bevel...is its a more supported edge....which equates to it being stronger and less likely to roll over on you.

Lets apply a little common sense to this [on an internet forum- fuggetaboutit- grin] knives and cutting edges of all sorts have progressed from the middle ages on to be a double bevel. Its pretty arrogant- and kind of funny really- for some to come out and say this "new" single bevel is revolutionary.


----------



## Kansas Bruisers (Dec 14, 2006)

Beendare said:


> The twisting motion you describe with the single bevel- if any- is secondary to the actual physics- the mechanical advantage of the head design- thus the superior performance of a head like the VPA's- its undeniable.Lets apply a little common sense to this [on an internet forum- fuggetaboutit- grin] knives and cutting edges of all sorts have progressed from the middle ages on to be a double bevel. Its pretty arrogant- and kind of funny really- for some to come out and say this "new" single bevel is revolutionary.


I am no expert on this subject but I can attest to a single bevel continuing to totate through a whitetail. Lat year I killed a 250lb+ buck with a 100 grain Helix single bevel out of a 60lb, 28 inch draw bow. The wound channel through the lungs was good sized, it also cut holes outside of the main wound channel. The exit wound was a big "L" shape wound I read about in Dr. Asby's reports. My broadhead did rotate completely through the deer and left behind massive damage.

Most knives and cutting tools are meant to give clean cuts. It seems to me a double bevel knife is meant to inflict more damage in living tissue (human or animal) by rotating and causing more damage as it goes in. Not many people use knives to kill humans or animals, I would think that's why most knives are double bevel.

For cutting anything that is not alive, I'd take a double bevel every time. If I intended to kill something with a knife, single bevel is what I would choose.


----------



## bambikiller (Feb 27, 2004)

Beendare said:


> Sethro,
> I respect your posts but at this point we will have to agree we disagree. The twisting motion you describe with the single bevel- if any- is secondary to the actual physics- the mechanical advantage of the head design- thus the superior performance of a head like the VPA's- its undeniable. I've seen bone splitting myself on large critters like elk and australian Water Buffalo, bowsite has shown the same in a test on cape buffalo- all with double bevel heads.
> 
> If you have it in your mind the single bevel is the way to go- then use then with little disadvantage. What the BH and knife companies know and its the reason most of these tools are double bevel...is its a more supported edge....which equates to it being stronger and less likely to roll over on you.
> ...


And what bevel knives die they consider armor piercing ????? I'll wait .. Knowing the answer .. Single bevel tanto tipped ..


----------



## sethro02 (Jul 5, 2008)

Beendare said:


> Sethro,
> I respect your posts but at this point we will have to agree we disagree. The twisting motion you describe with the single bevel- if any- is secondary to the actual physics- the mechanical advantage of the head design- thus the superior performance of a head like the VPA's- its undeniable. I've seen bone splitting myself on large critters like elk and australian Water Buffalo, bowsite has shown the same in a test on cape buffalo- all with double bevel heads.
> 
> If you have it in your mind the single bevel is the way to go- then use then with little disadvantage. What the BH and knife companies know and its the reason most of these tools are double bevel...is its a more supported edge....which equates to it being stronger and less likely to roll over on you.
> ...


No idea what we are disagreeing on but ok..." Twisting motion if any"?? There is one full twist every 6-8" so yes there is twisting , no reason what so ever for knife companies to make single bevel blades. A long time some seals were known to use single bevel blades but that was to penetrate armour more effectively . Other than that you buy a knife to cut and fillet. I don't doubt you have split bone with double bevels, I have as well with phatheads. Single bevels were designed for this purpose and they do it more effectively than double bevels and way more consistant. That's fine if you disagree with that but you'll have a tough time proving that wrong. The 3:1 ratio coupled with single bevel is built for bone splitting and penetration. Lighter to medium can be split with double bevels by the fact that the ferrule wedges in far enough splits bone and keeps going. But you get a certain thickness and double bevels can't hang.


----------



## sixstringer4528 (Feb 28, 2014)

Single bevel has better penetration


----------



## sethro02 (Jul 5, 2008)

Beendare said:


> Sethro,
> I respect your posts but at this point we will have to agree we disagree. The twisting motion you describe with the single bevel- if any- is secondary to the actual physics- the mechanical advantage of the head design- thus the superior performance of a head like the VPA's- its undeniable. I've seen bone splitting myself on large critters like elk and australian Water Buffalo, bowsite has shown the same in a test on cape buffalo- all with double bevel heads.
> 
> If you have it in your mind the single bevel is the way to go- then use then with little disadvantage. What the BH and knife companies know and its the reason most of these tools are double bevel...is its a more supported edge....which equates to it being stronger and less likely to roll over on you.
> ...


By the way I didn't say it's new. I actually said " they have been around since people started hunting"


----------



## sethro02 (Jul 5, 2008)

bambikiller said:


> And what bevel knives die they consider armor piercing ????? I'll wait .. Knowing the answer .. Single bevel tanto tipped ..


Beat me to it


----------



## Beendare (Jan 31, 2006)

"Better on armor", "spinning through an animal" "get to a certain thickness and double bevels can't hang" ....I think you guys will come to regret those comments...what does armor matter anyway.......maybe worth going back to the video of those VPA double bevels shattering that beef bone.

Hey, shoot single bevel if you want, they can't hurt...but saying they are "Better" without addressing the fact the double does everything the single does without the singles downsides is just getting caught up in the hype if you ask me. I would put money up saying that 150gr VPA 2 blade will do ANYTHING a single bevel can do...and stay sharper in the process. Any takers?


----------



## sethro02 (Jul 5, 2008)

Yea how much you betting?


----------



## sethro02 (Jul 5, 2008)

Beendare said:


> "Better on armor", "spinning through an animal" "get to a certain thickness and double bevels can't hang" ....I think you guys will come to regret those comments...what does armor matter anyway.......maybe worth going back to the video of those VPA double bevels shattering that beef bone.
> 
> Hey, shoot single bevel if you want, they can't hurt...but saying they are "Better" without addressing the fact the double does everything the single does without the singles downsides is just getting caught up in the hype if you ask me. I would put money up saying that 150gr VPA 2 blade will do ANYTHING a single bevel can do...and stay sharper in the process. Any takers?


No offense but if you don't think a single bevel twists through an animal then you know nothing about how they work and you have never killed with one. They can't not twist...


----------



## sethro02 (Jul 5, 2008)

This works out perfect because I have Vpa 150 grainers and have tested them against the helix so all I have to do is do it again , video tape it and I win money!


----------



## bambikiller (Feb 27, 2004)

Beendare said:


> "Better on armor", "spinning through an animal" "get to a certain thickness and double bevels can't hang" ....I think you guys will come to regret those comments...what does armor matter anyway.......maybe worth going back to the video of those VPA double bevels shattering that beef bone.
> 
> Hey, shoot single bevel if you want, they can't hurt...but saying they are "Better" without addressing the fact the double does everything the single does without the singles downsides is just getting caught up in the hype if you ask me. I would put money up saying that 150gr VPA 2 blade will do ANYTHING a single bevel can do...and stay sharper in the process. Any takers?


Ok you have obviously missed the point all together .. I for one have done a few write ups on vpas .. An they are my favorite fixed head .. They are different than other two blades because of their wedge shape . They split bone in a different way than a single bevel . . . And this isn't a vpa vs single bevel thread . It's single bevel vs double bevel . Vpas aside . Name me one two blade double bevel that can split bone like a single bevel??? I'll wait ... !!! There just isn't one ou there like a vpa .. Magnus ? Nope .. Snuffer ?? Nope zwickey... Nope ... Heck even German kenetic at 90 bucks a pack won't split bone like a vpa wedge type design or a single bevel ....Believe me I have seen all of the vpa videos .. I own about 20-25 vpa heads .. But again this isnt a vpa vs single bevel broad topic . It's single vs double .


----------



## Beendare (Jan 31, 2006)

bambikiller said:


> Ok you have obviously missed the point all together .. .


whoah there Bambi.....I'm not the saying that single bevel outperforms double bevel- that was you guys. And to be honest....I don't really care except to put an end to any of these wild claims on the internet. 

I said my piece. Sethro, do we have a deal? I will of course like to see the criteria and how you propose to do this test- in fact, where are you, I would like to see it....probably makes sense if we are putting $500,000 on the line [cashiers checks on the spot please] I'll have to make sure you don't slip in one of those 375 gr arrows you hunt with - grin, kidding!


----------



## bambikiller (Feb 27, 2004)

Beendare said:


> whoah there Bambi.....I'm not the saying that single bevel outperforms double bevel- that was you guys. And to be honest....I don't really care except to put an end to any of these wild claims on the internet.
> 
> I said my piece. Sethro, do we have a deal? I will of course like to see the criteria and how you propose to do this test- in fact, where are you, I would like to see it....probably makes sense if we are putting $500,000 on the line [cashiers checks on the spot please] I'll have to make sure you don't slip in one of those 375 gr arrows you hunt with - grin, kidding!


Good talk bro good talk .. Still missing the point


----------



## Fortyneck (Oct 8, 2010)

:moviecorn


----------



## sethro02 (Jul 5, 2008)

Beendare said:


> whoah there Bambi.....I'm not the saying that single bevel outperforms double bevel- that was you guys. And to be honest....I don't really care except to put an end to any of these wild claims on the internet.
> 
> I said my piece. Sethro, do we have a deal? I will of course like to see the criteria and how you propose to do this test- in fact, where are you, I would like to see it....probably makes sense if we are putting $500,000 on the line [cashiers checks on the spot please] I'll have to make sure you don't slip in one of those 375 gr arrows you hunt with - grin, kidding!


Axis 340 with your 150 grain Vpa will put me at the 480 ish range

Axis 340 with helix 100 grain ( it's 1 1/8" like Vpa) puts me at 430-440 ish. So you can have the heavier arrow too.

2" thick cow femurs ( comparable to elk) non negotiable. 

Diamond deadeye at 65# 29" draw


This is dumb I even have to do this since single bevel has been proven superior in penetration. But some aren't believers until they see.


----------



## bambikiller (Feb 27, 2004)

sethro02 said:


> Axis 340 with your 150 grain Vpa will put me at the 480 ish range
> 
> Axis 340 with helix 100 grain ( it's 1 1/8" like Vpa) puts me at 430-440 ish. So you can have the heavier arrow too.
> 
> ...


I've seen the test you did for helix .. I love the vpa as you know but I wouldn't take this bet . I believe you may already have a 150 vpa or two I sent ya to play with .. Let's see this test !!! Start a new thread in bh section because I am wanting to see them dual it out


----------



## sethro02 (Jul 5, 2008)

I'm hoping beendare you seriously don't have $500k, if I did I wouldn't be on this site.


----------



## rayzor43 (Apr 8, 2011)

Seeing which of our two heads do a better job penetrating is straight forward enough.

Whichever one wins would not be able to claim single vs double bevel the victor those. There are a lot more design differences than just single vs double bevel edges between our two heads. Shapes and construction are quite different. If you truly wanted to compare single vs double bevel finding one that had a closer length to width ratio and similar construction would be better. Maybe our 200s vs those Cut Throats. They are much closer ratio. Their 2" vs our 1.9" blade length. They'd weigh the same too. Comparing our 1 7/8" long 1 1/8" cut vs what ever the Helix is with the narrower, stepped in nose profile, is in length will tell you which one penetrate better only.


----------



## rayzor43 (Apr 8, 2011)

I hate autocorrect.


----------



## rayzor43 (Apr 8, 2011)

Not sure what I was thinking on our blade length of the 150. 1.18" not 1 7/8".


----------



## Fortyneck (Oct 8, 2010)

rayzor43 said:


> Seeing which of our two heads do a better job penetrating is straight forward enough.
> 
> Whichever one wins would not be able to claim single vs double bevel the victor those. There are a lot more design differences than just single vs double bevel edges between our two heads. Shapes and construction are quite different. If you truly wanted to compare single vs double bevel finding one that had a closer length to width ratio and similar construction would be better. Maybe our 200s vs those Cut Throats. They are much closer ratio. Their 2" vs our 1.9" blade length. They'd weigh the same too. Comparing our 1 7/8" long 1 1/8" cut vs what ever the Helix is with the narrower, stepped in nose profile, is in length will tell you which one penetrate better only.


Can't you just spin off 2 penetrators, 1-single, 1-double, same ferrule, winner take all for bragging rights no matter who loses you win? :noidea:


----------



## TimmyZ7 (Aug 11, 2010)

rayzor43 said:


> Seeing which of our two heads do a better job penetrating is straight forward enough.
> 
> Whichever one wins would not be able to claim single vs double bevel the victor those. There are a lot more design differences than just single vs double bevel edges between our two heads. Shapes and construction are quite different. If you truly wanted to compare single vs double bevel finding one that had a closer length to width ratio and similar construction would be better. Maybe our 200s vs those Cut Throats. They are much closer ratio. Their 2" vs our 1.9" blade length. They'd weigh the same too. Comparing our 1 7/8" long 1 1/8" cut vs what ever the Helix is with the narrower, stepped in nose profile, is in length will tell you which one penetrate better only.


With all do respect your ferrule design is a dead give away, much like a signature if you will, that you have had involvement in the making of this cut throat broadhead; in addition to your extensive knowledge on it when describing the blade angle and such. That said, I am sure you have already done the testing on that head and the ones you sell. 

Without a doubt you have a well constructed broadhead and regardless of the results it will remain a winner for many more aspects than the bevel or penetration. I feel a traditional design, such as an Abowyer, would be a great match up.


----------



## KRONIIK (Jun 3, 2014)

rayzor43 said:


> Seeing which of our two heads do a better job penetrating is straight forward enough.
> 
> Whichever one wins would not be able to claim single vs double bevel the victor those. There are a lot more design differences than just single vs double bevel edges between our two heads. Shapes and construction are quite different. If you truly wanted to compare single vs double bevel finding one that had a closer length to width ratio and similar construction would be better. Maybe our 200s vs those Cut Throats. They are much closer ratio. Their 2" vs our 1.9" blade length. They'd weigh the same too. Comparing our 1 7/8" long 1 1/8" cut vs what ever the Helix is with the narrower, stepped in nose profile, is in length will tell you which one penetrate better only.



Regardless of which way you lean, it would be a tough contest for either side to "win".
If I were to participate in such a contest (if serious money were at stake), I'd have to insist that the competing broadheads (and Arrows), were as identical as possible except for bevel, right down to the same Rockwell hardness. 
And because of the inconsistent nature of bone structure, I'd have to insist that it be performed at least ten times on the same (but opposite sides) bones of the same animal, and the results averaged. 
One shot from each isn't going to suggest, let alone prove anything one way or another.

I just don't see anybody going through the hassle to do it right.


----------



## sethro02 (Jul 5, 2008)

rayzor43 said:


> Seeing which of our two heads do a better job penetrating is straight forward enough.
> 
> Whichever one wins would not be able to claim single vs double bevel the victor those. There are a lot more design differences than just single vs double bevel edges between our two heads. Shapes and construction are quite different. If you truly wanted to compare single vs double bevel finding one that had a closer length to width ratio and similar construction would be better. Maybe our 200s vs those Cut Throats. They are much closer ratio. Their 2" vs our 1.9" blade length. They'd weigh the same too. Comparing our 1 7/8" long 1 1/8" cut vs what ever the Helix is with the narrower, stepped in nose profile, is in length will tell you which one penetrate better only.


Yea all good points Rayzor , but beendare is the one that said the Vpa can do "ANYTHING" a single bevel can do and could even do it better... So that's what we are proving...him wrong


----------



## sethro02 (Jul 5, 2008)

We will just do a single bevel vs all double bevels on the same type of bones. There will be a very clear winner


----------



## sethro02 (Jul 5, 2008)

sethro02 said:


> We will just do a single bevel vs all double bevels on the same type of bones. There will be a very clear winner


Actually this would be mostly a waste of time because 95% of 2 blade heads wouldn't stay together in this test


----------



## TimmyZ7 (Aug 11, 2010)

sethro02 said:


> Actually this would be mostly a waste of time because 95% of 2 blade heads wouldn't stay together in this test


Unless they're made by slick trick...:wink:


----------



## bambikiller (Feb 27, 2004)

TimmyZ7 said:


> Unless they're made by slick trick...:wink:


It's like we think alike or something !!!!


----------



## 0nepin (Sep 16, 2009)

Your comments are foolish and you seem to be looking to lose some $$$.been there done that single bevel dominate when heavy bone is hit.


Beendare said:


> "Better on armor", "spinning through an animal" "get to a certain thickness and double bevels can't hang" ....I think you guys will come to regret those comments...what does armor matter anyway.......maybe worth going back to the video of those VPA double bevels shattering that beef bone.
> 
> Hey, shoot single bevel if you want, they can't hurt...but saying they are "Better" without addressing the fact the double does everything the single does without the singles downsides is just getting caught up in the hype if you ask me. I would put money up saying that 150gr VPA 2 blade will do ANYTHING a single bevel can do...and stay sharper in the process. Any takers?


----------



## sethro02 (Jul 5, 2008)

TimmyZ7 said:


> Unless they're made by slick trick...:wink:


I just lol'd


----------



## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

sethro02 said:


> Axis 340 with your 150 grain Vpa will put me at the 480 ish range
> 
> Axis 340 with helix 100 grain ( it's 1 1/8" like Vpa) puts me at 430-440 ish. So you can have the heavier arrow too.
> 
> ...


Not a fair comparison Seth. Two different dynamic spined arrows if the head weight isn't the same. If you cut one to correct for spine you'll have different FOC percentages. You need to test both with same broadhead weights unless you're adding 50gr to the inserts?


----------



## zmanastronomy (Jan 29, 2013)

There's a lot of OCD on this website.


----------



## bambikiller (Feb 27, 2004)

henro said:


> Not a fair comparison Seth. Two different dynamic spined arrows if the head weight isn't the same. If you cut one to correct for spine you'll have different FOC percentages. You need to test both with same broadhead weights unless you're adding 50gr to the inserts?


I assure you he is well aware . He's being a bit sarcastic and knows which will win anyways .


----------



## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

bambikiller said:


> I assure you he is well aware . He's being a bit sarcastic and knows which will win anyways .


Regardless there's not really a cut and dry way to prove a winner when you're shooting two different targets. Bones could have different densities or hardness etc.


----------



## bambikiller (Feb 27, 2004)

henro said:


> Regardless there's not really a cut and dry way to prove a winner when you're shooting two different targets. Bones could have different densities or hardness etc.


So what is your recommendation as a consistent medium ?


----------



## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

bambikiller said:


> So what is your recommendation as a consistent medium ?


There isn't that I know of. I guess shooting a large sample source and comparing average penetration would be the best bet.


----------



## sethro02 (Jul 5, 2008)

henro said:


> Not a fair comparison Seth. Two different dynamic spined arrows if the head weight isn't the same. If you cut one to correct for spine you'll have different FOC percentages. You need to test both with same broadhead weights unless you're adding 50gr to the inserts?


Being a smartass...


----------



## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

sethro02 said:


> Being a smartass...


Guess I missed that.


----------



## sethro02 (Jul 5, 2008)

henro said:


> There isn't that I know of. I guess shooting a large sample source and comparing average penetration would be the best bet.


Same size bones is the best you can do. If for example 20 double bevel heads blow apart and 8 out of 10 single bevels perform flawlessly then bone density doesn't mean much because there is no way that would be a coincidence this is an example. No matter what bone there will be a clear winner. Consistency spells winner


----------



## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

Best way to compare heads would be to try a brand that makes a model in both bevel versions like Zwickey for example.


----------



## sethro02 (Jul 5, 2008)

henro said:


> Best way to compare heads would be to try a brand that makes a model in both bevel versions like Zwickey for example.


This is mainly me proving beendare wrong...that's about it. So all I have to do is show the helix penetrating better than the Vpa 150 he is talking about....which I've done, but now need video proof and he will pay up


----------



## bambikiller (Feb 27, 2004)

henro said:


> There isn't that I know of. I guess shooting a large sample source and comparing average penetration would be the best bet.


So essentially what Seth has lined up is as good as it gets for the time being correct ?? Bones off the same damn cow can't get much closer than that bro . Come on man


----------



## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

sethro02 said:


> This is mainly me proving beendare wrong...that's about it. So all I have to do is show the helix penetrating better than the Vpa 150 he is talking about....which I've done, but now need video proof and he will pay up





bambikiller said:


> So essentially what Seth has lined up is as good as it gets for the time being correct ?? Bones off the same damn cow can't get much closer than that bro . Come on man


I'm not trying to argue with either of you. I would love to see this done too. Just giving advice to have a more clear definitive winner and shut people up. There's always gonna be people giving excuses so the most issues you can cut out the best. You guys both know where I stand in this discussion. I just don't have the patience to argue with so many people on this site anymore. Keep up the good fight lol. 

These heads are cheap enough to try in both bevels if you want: http://www.3riversarchery.com/zwickey+no+mercy+2-blade+screw-in+broadheads_i4217-4X_baseitem.html.


----------



## KRONIIK (Jun 3, 2014)

bambikiller said:


> So essentially what Seth has lined up is as good as it gets for the time being correct ?? Bones off the same damn cow can't get much closer than that bro . Come on man


You can't see what's gonna happen?

"You hit your bone in a softer spot than you hit my bone! NO FAIR!" 
On and on.....


You will never "win" this contest even if your Helix *explodes* every bone you shoot it into, and every VPA mushrooms into a shapeless blob on every bone *it* hits.


----------



## bambikiller (Feb 27, 2004)

KRONIIK said:


> You can't see what's gonna happen?
> 
> "You hit your bone in a softer spot than you hit my bone! NO FAIR!"
> On and on.....
> ...


I think the vpa vs helix will be close to a draw ...


----------



## sethro02 (Jul 5, 2008)

henro said:


> I'm not trying to argue with either of you. I would love to see this done too. Just giving advice to have a more clear definitive winner and shut people up. There's always gonna be people giving excuses so the most issues you can cut out the best. You guys both know where I stand in this discussion. I just don't have the patience to argue with so many people on this site anymore. Keep up the good fight lol.
> 
> These heads are cheap enough to try in both bevels if you want: http://www.3riversarchery.com/zwickey+no+mercy+2-blade+screw-in+broadheads_i4217-4X_baseitem.html.


I know your not arguing man. I know how you feel. This was more of a certain head vs single bevel started by beendare but while we are at it we should just show single bevel is dominant on bone hits...but yes there would be haters on any type of test so buying the same bones is as close as we can do. It's difficult to get everything similar on this so eventually it would just be every broadhead for themselves against the same medium with same arrow, same diameter bone.... But seriously I'm not testing very any as I already have and had to wear safety goggles...most replaceable blade style broadheads will not penetrate this, I say most because I got bored after the first 7 broke into pieces...


----------



## sethro02 (Jul 5, 2008)

KRONIIK said:


> You can't see what's gonna happen?
> 
> "You hit your bone in a softer spot than you hit my bone! NO FAIR!"
> On and on.....
> ...


Yea pretty much lol. Last time I did this the helix penetrated like 14" or something so the bar is set pretty high. Not sure why he'd bet against me. Maybe he is at the bank transferring money?


----------



## KRONIIK (Jun 3, 2014)

Yeah, I'm pretty sure he's going to default and just hand you over the cash (plus a huge tip) if you promise not to embarrass him by actually going through with it all!


----------



## rayzor43 (Apr 8, 2011)

TimmyZ7 said:


> With all do respect your ferrule design is a dead give away, much like a signature if you will, that you have had involvement in the making of this cut throat broadhead; in addition to your extensive knowledge on it when describing the blade angle and such. That said, I am sure you have already done the testing on that head and the ones you sell.
> 
> Without a doubt you have a well constructed broadhead and regardless of the results it will remain a winner for many more aspects than the bevel or penetration. I feel a traditional design, such as an Abowyer, would be a great match up.


LOL. You're reading a bit more into it as far as the blade angle goes. My extensive knowledge of the blade angle/ratio of their head was an assumption that our 200 would be a lot closer to theirs than the Helix was with our 150. I had to jump on their website to get their dimensions. Much much closer but still not quite the same. Specs on both heads are listed on both of the websites. 

My point would be the same with the Abowyer as the Helix. Again you could tell which head penetrated or broke a bone better but there are a lot more design features than single vs double bevel sharpening consider as factors. Blade angle is very different. No matter which one performed better making a claim of single vs double being the reason would be just another unsupported claim. If you dig around on the top archery sites I'm pretty sure ours were compared with Abowyers in a test by someone independent of either of us in the last year or so.


----------



## grander (Mar 19, 2009)

When is this going down?


----------



## Beendare (Jan 31, 2006)

Look, i'm in....but its going to have to be for some serious dough otherwise not worth it. 

Simple; I say that VPA can do anything a single bevel can do- thats it, simple.Not trying to burst anyones fanboy bubble. I can point anyone interested to a couple studies- one where Pat on another site blew up a cape buff bone [with a 2 bl. Muzzy of all heads] which is not as strong or well designed as the VPA.

I think Sethro has done a fine job of helping turn the tide of all the light/fast guys over the years and deserves a lot of credit for that. The ultra heavy arrows are amazing in their ability. But remember, this thread was started by a guy that asked about "3rd bevel". There are many that are new to the sport and don't have the experience of a Sethro or Bambi. Combine that with the fact many just hunt avg game like Whitetails. Hey, I am a heavy arrow fan, but telling the avg guy they need a specialized single bevel BH and 700gr arrow is Ok...but unnecessary....which is essentially my point.


----------



## sethro02 (Jul 5, 2008)

Beendare said:


> Look, i'm in....but its going to have to be for some serious dough otherwise not worth it.
> 
> Simple; I say that VPA can do anything a single bevel can do- thats it, simple.Not trying to burst anyones fanboy bubble. I can point anyone interested to a couple studies- one where Pat on another site blew up a cape buff bone [with a 2 bl. Muzzy of all heads] which is not as strong or well designed as the VPA.
> 
> I think Sethro has done a fine job of helping turn the tide of all the light/fast guys over the years and deserves a lot of credit for that. The ultra heavy arrows are amazing in their ability. But remember, this thread was started by a guy that asked about "3rd bevel". There are many that are new to the sport and don't have the experience of a Sethro or Bambi. Combine that with the fact many just hunt avg game like Whitetails. Hey, I am a heavy arrow fan, but telling the avg guy they need a specialized single bevel BH and 700gr arrow is Ok...but unnecessary....which is essentially my point.


Serious cash or not worth it?? You aren't doing anything except watching! I'd rather just have cash to buy everything needed for this test...


----------



## TimmyZ7 (Aug 11, 2010)

rayzor43 said:


> LOL. You're reading a bit more into it as far as the blade angle goes. My extensive knowledge of the blade angle/ratio of their head was an assumption that our 200 would be a lot closer to theirs than the Helix was with our 150. I had to jump on their website to get their dimensions. Much much closer but still not quite the same. Specs on both heads are listed on both of the websites.
> 
> My point would be the same with the Abowyer as the Helix. Again you could tell which head penetrated or broke a bone better but there are a lot more design features than single vs double bevel sharpening consider as factors. Blade angle is very different. No matter which one performed better making a claim of single vs double being the reason would be just another unsupported claim. If you dig around on the top archery sites I'm pretty sure ours were compared with Abowyers in a test by someone independent of either of us in the last year or so.


Well I agree that there are multiple aspects to consider aside from simply penetrating the bone. However, that is all Sethro said the test was based on so that is the context in which I spoke from when stating the Abowyer would be a good match up to see. Since you did not say I was wrong in that VPA may have been involved with the Cutthroat broadhead I will say it's going to gain more popularity now. You make great heads and no one can deny their superior structural integrity next to any on the market.


----------



## sethro02 (Jul 5, 2008)

Yes most peoples setup are fine for whitetail , I thought mine was fine too 5 years ago until my 450 grain arrow got 4" of penetration on a shoulder hit because it took a step. So that's why now I shoot heavier arrows with better quality broadheads...I don't have that problem anymore


----------



## Norwegian Woods (Apr 23, 2006)

TimmyZ7 said:


> Since you did not say I was wrong in that VPA may have been involved with the Cutthroat broadhead I will say it's going to gain more popularity now. You make great heads and no one can deny their superior structural integrity next to any on the market.


I agree on this.
I think I need to test those two against each other and see what I find 
I promise I will not be gentle with them:eyebrows:
I just have to wait for them to sell a right bevel version.


----------



## bambikiller (Feb 27, 2004)

I have something to admit ... Guys I'm an addict .. I'm addicted to sharp things .


----------



## Beendare (Jan 31, 2006)

bambikiller said:


> I have something to admit ... Guys I'm an addict .. I'm addicted to sharp things .


You don't think you are the only one, eh? Grin 
Its funny, I was telling a buddy Dale Perry that as he was helping me on a hunt this fall....and he laughed as hard as I did when I saw your post.


----------



## ismo131 (Nov 19, 2014)

I just bought g5 montages ( they are not bad, but could be better) and find out that 2 blade single bewel is best when it hits on bone. After watching same Youtube videos.
I just dont find them on europe. Dont want to pay double price from tax+ shiping adoon usa price


----------



## bambikiller (Feb 27, 2004)

Beendare said:


> You don't think you are the only one, eh? Grin
> Its funny, I was telling a buddy Dale Perry that as he was helping me on a hunt this fall....and he laughed as hard as I did when I saw your post.


Dales a good guy . Was it a successful trip?


----------



## KingofHeros (Nov 19, 2014)

HOLD ON ONE MOMENT! The last time I checked my post it had 54 posts now we are at 142 posts and over 2k views??? What happened?


----------



## Norwegian Woods (Apr 23, 2006)

Just some of us that love discussing broadheads and their ability to kill critters


----------



## LvToHunt (May 10, 2011)

KingofHeros said:


> HOLD ON ONE MOMENT! The last time I checked my post it had 54 posts now we are at 142 posts and over 2k views??? What happened?


You opened a can of worms!


----------



## kwilson16 (May 14, 2007)

Single bevel=Marketing Hype


----------



## grander (Mar 19, 2009)

kwilson16 said:


> Single bevel=Marketing Hype


I'm keeping an open mind and reading the pro single posts.. You boys are splitting some hairs.


----------



## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

kwilson16 said:


> Single bevel=Marketing Hype


Ignorance is bliss.


----------



## KRONIIK (Jun 3, 2014)

grander said:


> I'm keeping an open mind and reading the pro single posts.. You boys are splitting some hairs.


 Perhaps, depending on your definition of "splitting hairs". 
Some of us have seen too much research and testing to ignore what we think is at least a significant advantage, and have decided to capitalize on it.
And since they don't cost anymore than a comparable double-bevel, the "marketing gimmick" argument kind of falls flat.
I hear the same thing when I advocate the use heavy arrows for big game hunting.
Meh.


----------



## Norwegian Woods (Apr 23, 2006)

grander said:


> I'm keeping an open mind and reading the pro single posts.. You boys are splitting some hairs.


This all depends on what setup you have and what animal you hunt.
If you use an average setup of 60-70 lbs, 28-30" DL, 400-450 grain arrow, fixed broadhead and hunt Whitetail only, it really doesn't matter much if you use a single or a double bevel.

But if you use a lighter setup, shorter DL, lighter arrows or hunt bigger critters, the single bevel can make the difference you need if you hit bone.

Blowing a sharp broadhead through some soft tissue and some thin ribs on a doe is not exactly a test and should be possible for everyone.

This also goes for as *KRONIK* says, heavy arrows.


----------



## grander (Mar 19, 2009)

I'm all for shooting heavy FOC sticks.. I see that some heads only come in right bevel.
Anyone shooting right bevel, right helical, out of a right hand bow? ..and have any issues?


----------



## kwilson16 (May 14, 2007)

'Research' = Marketing Hype. 

Heavy arrows provide numerous benefits but like all things in life, moderation is the key.


----------



## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

kwilson16 said:


> 'Research' = Marketing Hype.
> 
> Heavy arrows provide numerous benefits but like all things in life, moderation is the key.


You make no sense. I've asked you multiple times to show builds you've tested and you never respond. Single bevel isn't marketing hype it's been around for a long long time. Marketing hype is people that are too obsessed with chrono speeds to shoot a heavy arrow and be worried about when they tell their friends what their bow shoots. Everybody thinks they need the fastest chrono numbers to kill.

I find it extremely hilarious that someone would even post this that shoots Rage broadheads? THAT is market hype to a T: http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=2348284.


----------



## kwilson16 (May 14, 2007)

I speak from the experience of shooting 20+ deer per year and being personally involved in the recovery of 200+ per year. Year round kill permits and ownership of tracking dog produce this experience year after year. I shoot Rages as well as numerous other fixed heads on HEAVY arrows. I have not organized or recorded my experience but I have shot the super heavy/high FOC/single bevel set-ups into many deer without seeing any penetration improvement.


----------



## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

kwilson16 said:


> I speak from the experience of shooting 20+ deer per year and being personally involved in the recovery of 200+ per year. Year round kill permits and ownership of tracking dog produce this experience year after year. I shoot Rages as well as numerous other fixed heads on HEAVY arrows. I have not organized or recorded my experience but I have shot the super heavy/high FOC/single bevel set-ups into many deer without seeing any penetration improvement.


Again no data in any of your posts.


----------



## kwilson16 (May 14, 2007)

Maybe I should shoot a bunch of water buffalo at point blank range on level ground with a long bow and then start selling broadheads lol


----------



## KRONIIK (Jun 3, 2014)

kwilson16 said:


> Maybe I should shoot a bunch of water buffalo at point blank range on level ground with a long bow and then start selling broadheads lol


Shoot at enough of them with Rages, and I doubt you're going to be around long enough to be selling much of anything...


----------



## sethro02 (Jul 5, 2008)

kwilson16 said:


> Single bevel=Marketing Hype


Clue....less


----------



## sethro02 (Jul 5, 2008)

grander said:


> I'm all for shooting heavy FOC sticks.. I see that some heads only come in right bevel.
> Anyone shooting right bevel, right helical, out of a right hand bow? ..and have any issues?


No issues.


----------



## sethro02 (Jul 5, 2008)

kwilson16 said:


> I speak from the experience of shooting 20+ deer per year and being personally involved in the recovery of 200+ per year. Year round kill permits and ownership of tracking dog produce this experience year after year. I shoot Rages as well as numerous other fixed heads on HEAVY arrows. I have not organized or recorded my experience but I have shot the super heavy/high FOC/single bevel set-ups into many deer without seeing any penetration improvement.


If your getting pass throughs on broadside shots shooting does then yea it'll be hard to tell penetration improvement...so it's kinda hard to say it's a marketing gimmick if you can't even conduct a way to measure it's penetration compared to others...your the typical " I shoot this setup so yours is fine no matter what, it'll blow through anything" just because you don't understand a single bevels advantages doesn't mean they are a marketing gimmick. 
Ozonics= marketing gimmick
Scent lock =marketing gimmick
Single bevel= proven over years and years and years and years of it's benefits


----------



## sethro02 (Jul 5, 2008)

This place needs moderators that know as much as possible so they can delete ******ed posts that new archers can't read. Just because some people kill thousands of does with permits and there buddies buddy never had a problem automatically means you won't have problems ....pointless stupid crap


----------



## bowfisher (Jan 21, 2003)

KRONIIK said:


> Shoot at enough of them with Rages, and I doubt you're going to be around long enough to be selling much of anything...


:set1_rolf2:


----------



## 0nepin (Sep 16, 2009)

You can't be serious? You have no clue


kwilson16 said:


> Maybe I should shoot a bunch of water buffalo at point blank range on level ground with a long bow and then start selling broadheads lol


----------



## Beendare (Jan 31, 2006)

sethro02 said:


> This place needs moderators that know as much as possible so they can delete ******ed posts that new archers can't read. Just because some people kill thousands of does with permits and there buddies buddy never had a problem automatically means you won't have problems ....pointless stupid crap



On the other hand you have to respect experience. I know a bow shop owner that shoots Rage heads[ of cours he gets them free] but he does it with an 80# bow and 550 gr arrows. I think years of experience with all different size critters is worth something....."testing" on bones taped to a target is fine but it only tells you so much. 

Personally, I will always defer to my own shooting arrows into large critters, pigs, elk, Water buffalo- to make up my opinion on what works best.


----------



## 0nepin (Sep 16, 2009)

My son has shot many deer with his 50lb chaos and the only head that has always gotten passthrough has been the helix single bevel.


----------



## salmon killer (Jun 19, 2011)

Beendare said:


> On the other hand you have to respect experience. I know a bow shop owner that shoots Rage heads[ of cours he gets them free] but he does it with an 80# bow and 550 gr arrows. I think years of experience with all different size critters is worth something....."testing" on bones taped to a target is fine but it only tells you so much.
> 
> Personally, I will always defer to my own shooting arrows into large critters, pigs, elk, Water buffalo- to make up my opinion on what works best.


Very well said.But Im a huge fan of 2 blade single bevel .But I also have a huge amount of hunting experience with 2 blade double bevel.


----------



## 0nepin (Sep 16, 2009)

No other broadhead design out penetrate a two blade singel bevel.you either agree or enjoy being wrong


Beendare said:


> On the other hand you have to respect experience. I know a bow shop owner that shoots Rage heads[ of cours he gets them free] but he does it with an 80# bow and 550 gr arrows. I think years of experience with all different size critters is worth something....."testing" on bones taped to a target is fine but it only tells you so much.
> 
> Personally, I will always defer to my own shooting arrows into large critters, pigs, elk, Water buffalo- to make up my opinion on what works best.


----------



## BowTechForever (Jun 12, 2012)

Come on guys, we all know corn dogs are the most lethal thing you can put on the end of an arrow :wink:


----------



## sethro02 (Jul 5, 2008)

Beendare said:


> On the other hand you have to respect experience. I know a bow shop owner that shoots Rage heads[ of cours he gets them free] but he does it with an 80# bow and 550 gr arrows. I think years of experience with all different size critters is worth something....."testing" on bones taped to a target is fine but it only tells you so much.
> 
> Personally, I will always defer to my own shooting arrows into large critters, pigs, elk, Water buffalo- to make up my opinion on what works best.


I respect mine and certain others experience...testing is one thing but real world is another. We know this. That's why I shoot what gives me the best advantage. And most of those advantages have been proven for a long time ( single bevel, heavy arrows, etc)


----------



## sethro02 (Jul 5, 2008)

salmon killer said:


> Very well said.


Please elaborate salmon killer, what was very well said?? The fact that a bow shop owner shoots rage with an 80# bow? What isn't that preparing for kinda like the worst case scenario with that setup?!?! Oh wait we preach that as well!


----------



## sethro02 (Jul 5, 2008)

Beendare said:


> On the other hand you have to respect experience. I know a bow shop owner that shoots Rage heads[ of cours he gets them free] but he does it with an 80# bow and 550 gr arrows. I think years of experience with all different size critters is worth something....."testing" on bones taped to a target is fine but it only tells you so much.
> 
> Personally, I will always defer to my own shooting arrows into large critters, pigs, elk, Water buffalo- to make up my opinion on what works best.


But if you don't shoot a certain head then you can't talk about how it does or doesn't work compared to others, your quick to jump on your vpa's but haven't mentioned a single kill with a helix and somehow your vpa's can do everything...it's a lose lose convo man...this thread has gone south like so many other single bevel threads because old farts jump on here spouting about there past 40 years of hunting which in turn turns into a "my head works better than your head" thread.


----------



## salmon killer (Jun 19, 2011)

sethro02 said:


> Please elaborate salmon killer, what was very well said?? The fact that a bow shop owner shoots rage with an 80# bow? What isn't that preparing for kinda like the worst case scenario with that setup?!?! Oh wait we preach that as well!


I have no use for mech heads except on turkey.What I thought was well said, quote, I will always defer to my own shooting arrows into large critters pigs ,elk water buffalo, to make my own opinion to what works best!


----------



## Norwegian Woods (Apr 23, 2006)

Beendare said:


> On the other hand you have to respect experience. I know a bow shop owner that shoots Rage heads[ of cours he gets them free] but he does it with an 80# bow and 550 gr arrows. I think years of experience with all different size critters is worth something....."testing" on bones taped to a target is fine but it only tells you so much.
> 
> Personally, I will always defer to my own shooting arrows into large critters, pigs, elk, Water buffalo- to make up my opinion on what works best.


I know a very experienced PH and outfitter that also is a very keen bowhunter himself.
He also loves using Rage for most of his hunting.
Including lions.
He shoots the Rage with a 90 lbs bow and 700 grain arrows.
But he is using a high quality 2-blade single bevel when he goes after buffs with his bow.


----------



## Beendare (Jan 31, 2006)

sethro02 said:


> But if you don't shoot a certain head then you can't talk about how it does or doesn't work compared to others, your quick to jump on your vpa's but haven't mentioned a single kill with a helix and somehow your vpa's can do everything...it's a lose lose convo man...this thread has gone south like so many other single bevel threads because old farts jump on here spouting about there past 40 years of hunting which in turn turns into a "my head works better than your head" thread.


Seth, you are the one saying your head works better than others. I'm saying prove it and you can't. Have you looked at any of the references I mentioned where the double bevel does everything the single bevel does- assuming a tuned heavy arrow? Obviously not. You are the fanboy here not me. I'm saying there are many good heads out there- a guy doesn't only have the one head you are pushing to choose from. Heck, the one test on bow site was a muzzy 2 blade and it split a cape buff bone. 

*Question- have you ever shot a big critter like that? Do you have any actual experience? You are quick to knock "old guys" but I can tell you I've learned a lot about "what works" from old guys and not just archery. A pretty dang arrogant statement that your backyard testing trumps "old guys" with many years of experience...*


----------



## kwilson16 (May 14, 2007)

Beendare said:


> Seth, you are the one saying your head works better than others. I'm saying prove it and you can't. Have you looked at any of the references I mentioned where the double bevel does everything the single bevel does- assuming a tuned heavy arrow? Obviously not. You are the fanboy here not me. I'm saying there are many good heads out there- a guy doesn't only have the one head you are pushing to choose from. Heck, the one test on bow site was a muzzy 2 blade and it split a cape buff bone.
> 
> *Question- have you ever shot a big critter like that? Do you have any actual experience? You are quick to knock "old guys" but I can tell you I've learned a lot about "what works" from old guys and not just archery. A pretty dang arrogant statement that your backyard testing trumps "old guys" with many years of experience...*


Now...that is well said.


----------



## sethro02 (Jul 5, 2008)

Beendare said:


> Seth, you are the one saying your head works better than others. I'm saying prove it and you can't. Have you looked at any of the references I mentioned where the double bevel does everything the single bevel does- assuming a tuned heavy arrow? Obviously not. You are the fanboy here not me. I'm saying there are many good heads out there- a guy doesn't only have the one head you are pushing to choose from. Heck, the one test on bow site was a muzzy 2 blade and it split a cape buff bone.
> 
> *Question- have you ever shot a big critter like that? Do you have any actual experience? You are quick to knock "old guys" but I can tell you I've learned a lot about "what works" from old guys and not just archery. A pretty dang arrogant statement that your backyard testing trumps "old guys" with many years of experience...*


Actually you are the one that said yours works better than any others, I didn't say that...you did. Yes I have experience, and I'm only quick to knock the old guys because they say experience equals knowledge...experience equals some knowledge. Doesn't mean it's good knowledge. Didn't say back yard testing trumps old guys ....re read ally posts. I just recently posted and it said quote " testing is one thing, BUT real world is another, that's why I choose a setup that gives me theost advantage" where in that quote did I say anything you just called me out on? By the way I'll re quote something else I said..."all else equal a single bevel will out penetrate a double bevel more CONSISTANTLY through hard medium hits such as bone" I didn't say everytime. I didn't say your head sucks . I didn't say you have to shoot a single bevel. This was a single bevel vs double bevel thread. Your kinda like my wife. You hear bits an pieces then spit out something that doesn't even mean the same...but whatever man. Stubbornness and hardheaded ness comes with age too I guess. No matter what anybody does, tests or real killing you and a few others will find something to complain about it


----------



## sethro02 (Jul 5, 2008)

Oh and not a fanboy....except for heavy arrows... I talk good about all kinda of products but I'll assume your too lazy to research my posts and prove me wrong.


----------



## sethro02 (Jul 5, 2008)

kwilson16 said:


> Now...that is well said.


Congrats on yet another useless post of many...you all are racking them up. This site is slowly losing members that actually give sound advice...pretty sad to because of all the new archers trying to decide who to believe when it's littered with people's opinions that they are trying to push as facts (which are you guys)


----------



## sethro02 (Jul 5, 2008)

They should just close this...beendare just go re read your crap your the one that stirred this crap up


----------



## crankn101 (Jan 26, 2007)

henro said:


> You make no sense. I've asked you multiple times to show builds you've tested and you never respond. Single bevel isn't marketing hype it's been around for a long long time. Marketing hype is people that are too obsessed with chrono speeds to shoot a heavy arrow and be worried about when they tell their friends what their bow shoots. Everybody thinks they need the fastest chrono numbers to kill.
> 
> I find it extremely hilarious that someone would even post this that shoots Rage broadheads? THAT is market hype to a T: http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=2348284.


.

No offenses, I agree with a lot of what you say, but what have you killed lately? To busy impressing people on the net versus hunting?


Ill put my public land Rage kills against yours...


----------



## TimmyZ7 (Aug 11, 2010)

crankn101 said:


> .
> 
> No offenses, I agree with a lot of what you say, but what have you killed lately? To busy impressing people on the net versus hunting?
> 
> ...


You killed a nice one the other day bro! You have some good ones under your belt that's for sure.


----------



## bambikiller (Feb 27, 2004)

0nepin said:


> No other broadhead design out penetrate a two blade singel bevel.you either agree or enjoy being wrong


Yuopppo


----------



## crankn101 (Jan 26, 2007)

TimmyZ7 said:


> You killed a nice one the other day bro! You have some good ones under your belt that's for sure.


 I get lucky every now and then...

Ive bumped heads with Beendare but he is a cool guy and Henro and Seth seem cool too, but this "my way or the highway" crap gets ridiculous.


----------



## sethro02 (Jul 5, 2008)

TimmyZ7 said:


> You killed a nice one the other day bro! You have some good ones under your belt that's for sure.


Did ya post it up to see?


----------



## sethro02 (Jul 5, 2008)

crankn101 said:


> I get lucky every now and then...
> 
> Ive bumped heads with Beendare but he is a cool guy and Henro and Seth seem cool too, but this "my way or the highway" crap gets ridiculous.


I stayed on topic...guy asked pros and cons of single and double...pretty much it I'll bow out and stay out of these threads. I'll go find an ozonics thread!


----------



## crankn101 (Jan 26, 2007)

sethro02 said:


> I stayed on topic...guy asked pros and cons of single and double...pretty much it I'll bow out and stay out of these threads. I'll go find an ozonics thread!


 Dead down wind...

I agree with a 2 blade single bevel being the best for penetration.


----------



## crankn101 (Jan 26, 2007)

sethro02 said:


> Did ya post it up to see?


 The Rage kill thread...:set1_rolf2:


----------



## sethro02 (Jul 5, 2008)

crankn101 said:


> The Rage kill thread...:set1_rolf2:


Nice


----------



## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

crankn101 said:


> .
> 
> No offenses, I agree with a lot of what you say, but what have you killed lately? To busy impressing people on the net versus hunting?
> 
> ...


Shot 2 does and a 8pt this year with the bow? Posted them in my arrow build thread. Not sure what that has to do with this but cool for you to brag about your kills I guess?


----------



## ADCTD2SHOOTING (Mar 31, 2012)

I have shot both and after my experience with single bevel this year I would recommend that you pay very close attention to the strength of the metal they use. I destroyed three single bevels ( I will not degrade a brand as it may have been a bad batch) the edge rolled over on two of them going through deer and the third sheared off the screw that keeps the head assembled. 
When I say rolled over I am talking from shaving sharp to butter knife. 
Of course I have broken double bevel in the past also but it wasn't edge failure.


----------



## emac396 (Jul 7, 2010)

http://www.alaskabowhunting.com/PR/Single_Bevel_Broadheads.pdf


----------



## Target Tony (Mar 3, 2003)

guess the bevel doesn't matter much to me. i shot my first deer this year with a Ulmer Edge single bevel and it cut great. used double bevels for the last 30+ years. they all cut great.


----------



## KRONIIK (Jun 3, 2014)

ADCTD2SHOOTING said:


> I have shot both and after my experience with single bevel this year I would recommend that you pay very close attention to the strength of the metal they use. I destroyed three single bevels ( I will not degrade a brand as it may have been a bad batch) the edge rolled over on two of them going through deer and the third sheared off the screw that keeps the head assembled.
> When I say rolled over I am talking from shaving sharp to butter knife.
> Of course I have broken double bevel in the past also but it wasn't edge failure.


 I've heard of several very similar failures, and I'm not afraid to name the brand.- DRT. Simply crappy, cheap Chinese (?) steel. Hopefully it's being addressed- they seem like usable heads by design if not consistent execution and heat-treatment/ tempering. 
(FWIW, the failures have occurred with both their single bevel and double-bevel models.) 
This will not likely occur with good German or American steel IMO.


----------



## sethro02 (Jul 5, 2008)

Yes your not gonna see "rolled " edges on steel force single bevels, vpa's , helix, or even red feather


----------



## sethro02 (Jul 5, 2008)

To destroy a head like that are you sure you didn't hit a rock after pass thru


----------



## Beendare (Jan 31, 2006)

ADCTD2SHOOTING said:


> I have shot both and after my experience with single bevel this year I would recommend that you pay very close attention to the strength of the metal they use. I destroyed three single bevels ( I will not degrade a brand as it may have been a bad batch) the edge rolled over on two of them going through deer and the third sheared off the screw that keeps the head assembled.
> When I say rolled over I am talking from shaving sharp to butter knife.
> Of course I have broken double bevel in the past also but it wasn't edge failure.


This is one of the issues with a single bevel that no one has addressed- *its a less supported edge [ie thinner, finer]*. The steel in a single bevel has to be better and of harder temper to equal the supported edge of a double bevel. Shoot, we had a custom knife maker confirm this...

I have been consistent all along on this thread- if you want to shoot single bevels fine [see first comment]...but even then a good double bevel will do anything the single bevel does if its on a heavy tuned arrow. I've seen it in the field on very big critters as have other friends.


----------



## sethro02 (Jul 5, 2008)

Beendare said:


> This is one of the issues with a single bevel that no one has addressed- *its a less supported edge [ie thinner, finer]*. The steel in a single bevel has to be better and of harder temper to equal the supported edge of a double bevel. Shoot, we had a custom knife maker confirm this...
> 
> I have been consistent all along on this thread- if you want to shoot single bevels fine [see first comment]...but even then a good double bevel will do anything the single bevel does if its on a heavy tuned arrow. I've seen it in the field on very big critters as have other friends.


I disagree with the less supported edge. Chances are all those heads had less than .062" thickness which is required for splitting bone...this has been proven by the way. Anything less than that will roll, bend , or twist...I know for a fact the drt heads are .052" and the anarchy are similar.


----------



## Norwegian Woods (Apr 23, 2006)

I agree.
The main issue of some of the single bevels on the market today, is to thin blades.
For a single bevel to work as intended and to keep the edge, the blades need to be thicker and it will also be better if the edge angle is not so flat and thin.


----------



## sethro02 (Jul 5, 2008)

Norwegian Woods said:


> I agree.
> The main issue of some of the single bevels on the market today, is to thin blades.
> For a single bevel to work as intended and to keep the edge, the blades need to be thicker and it will also be better if the edge angle is not so flat and thin.


Yes the degree of the bevel is important and overlooked. Tim spent a lot of money and time on the helix and countless hours of research to find this.


----------



## LvToHunt (May 10, 2011)

sethro02 said:


> Yes your not gonna see "rolled " edges on steel force single bevels, vpa's , helix, or even red feather


Last year I missed out of a ground blind and hit an old truck that was about 20 yds behind the deer. My 125gr Helix was fine. Couple small nick but otherwise still sharp. Killed the same deer a week later using the same head. He went 50 yds. In every animal for the last 4 yrs has gone 50 or less. Shot a 9pt last night. He went 15 yds if that. Every head will kill when placed right but since i changes to 70+ lbs, heavy arrow, and a Helix 125 My success rate is 100% No lost animals and all pass thru's w/ exception to my bull this which I spine shot. I'm not changing setups. This one works great!


----------



## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

I've posted pics of the Steelforce 190gr single bevels I shot after passing through deer and never had any rolled edges. Hitting rocks after passing through damaged the heads and chipped some but rolled edge failure was never an issue.


----------



## LvToHunt (May 10, 2011)

sethro02 said:


> Actually you are the one that said yours works better than any others, I didn't say that...you did. Yes I have experience, and I'm only quick to knock the old guys because they say experience equals knowledge...experience equals some knowledge. Doesn't mean it's good knowledge. Didn't say back yard testing trumps old guys ....re read ally posts. I just recently posted and it said quote " testing is one thing, BUT real world is another, that's why I choose a setup that gives me theost advantage" where in that quote did I say anything you just called me out on? By the way I'll re quote something else I said..."all else equal a single bevel will out penetrate a double bevel more CONSISTANTLY through hard medium hits such as bone" I didn't say everytime. I didn't say your head sucks . I didn't say you have to shoot a single bevel. This was a single bevel vs double bevel thread. Your kinda like my wife. You hear bits an pieces then spit out something that doesn't even mean the same...but whatever man. Stubbornness and hardheaded ness comes with age too I guess. No matter what anybody does, tests or real killing you and a few others will find something to complain about it


Sethro, I'm with you on the single bevel issue but I gotta disagree somewhat you on your experience statement. The older I get and more experience I gain the more that I realize that the older guys or at least my mentor really knew what they were talking about. We have all this testing(Ashby and yours included) and what it all boils down to is that it agrees with what the old guys already knew! The old guys that helped me when I was 1st starting out they simply knew what worked by experience. Basically they gave me a stiff heavy aluminum arrow w/ a COC 2 blade and said shoot this kid it works. I went thru the whole phase and now I'm right back to where I started. Just a lot heavier bow but basically the same. I'm sure they never had terms like FOC and such but every thing they told me was true. Heavy arrow, heavy head, COC 2 blade. So I would say in some cases experience does equal good knowledge! A guy has to be smart enough to realize when he's getting good advice and not believe all the hype he see's on TV. A big problem today is " my buddy experience". These new guys all have "a buddy" who has killed a few deer. Suddenly they are experienced! Which is a lotta crap. They're not experienced just lucky a few times. When you walk into someone's house and every wall is covered in antlers, big and small, then that archer should be smart enough to listen to what that guy has got to say. I did and now my wife won't let me put anymore on the wall.


----------



## mandrroofing (Oct 13, 2011)

Are you all resharping these single bevelded edges?


----------



## sethro02 (Jul 5, 2008)

LvToHunt said:


> Sethro, I'm with you on the single bevel issue but I gotta disagree somewhat you on your experience statement. The older I get and more experience I gain the more that I realize that the older guys or at least my mentor really knew what they were talking about. We have all this testing(Ashby and yours included) and what it all boils down to is that it agrees with what the old guys already knew! The old guys that helped me when I was 1st starting out they simply knew what worked by experience. Basically they gave me a stiff heavy aluminum arrow w/ a COC 2 blade and said shoot this kid it works. I went thru the whole phase and now I'm right back to where I started. Just a lot heavier bow but basically the same. I'm sure they never had terms like FOC and such but every thing they told me was true. Heavy arrow, heavy head, COC 2 blade. So I would say in some cases experience does equal good knowledge! A guy has to be smart enough to realize when he's getting good advice and not believe all the hype he see's on TV. A big problem today is " my buddy experience". These new guys all have "a buddy" who has killed a few deer. Suddenly they are experienced! Which is a lotta crap. They're not experienced just lucky a few times. When you walk into someone's house and every wall is covered in antlers, big and small, then that archer should be smart enough to listen to what that guy has got to say. I did and now my wife won't let me put anymore on the wall.


I do agree with you. I said not always experience equals good knowledge. Just been my experience overall dealing with people that have been hunting, working , etc longer than me. Some people learn from experience where some people just get things in there head that it's the right way or always good when In fact it's not. My father in law gave me some great advice and ****ty advice. He said " stay put in this tree, just keep hunting this tree and eventually the deer will come by". Well maybe once every six days this was true. I'd rather see deer every time I hunt so I started moving around and it's paid off since then. May have worked for him but it's not good advice even though he has had some success with doesn't mean it's good "knowledge" , that's what I was trying to convey


----------



## sethro02 (Jul 5, 2008)

mandrroofing said:


> Are you all resharping these single bevelded edges?


Yes, stone and strop


----------



## sethro02 (Jul 5, 2008)

LvToHunt said:


> Sethro, I'm with you on the single bevel issue but I gotta disagree somewhat you on your experience statement. The older I get and more experience I gain the more that I realize that the older guys or at least my mentor really knew what they were talking about. We have all this testing(Ashby and yours included) and what it all boils down to is that it agrees with what the old guys already knew! The old guys that helped me when I was 1st starting out they simply knew what worked by experience. Basically they gave me a stiff heavy aluminum arrow w/ a COC 2 blade and said shoot this kid it works. I went thru the whole phase and now I'm right back to where I started. Just a lot heavier bow but basically the same. I'm sure they never had terms like FOC and such but every thing they told me was true. Heavy arrow, heavy head, COC 2 blade. So I would say in some cases experience does equal good knowledge! A guy has to be smart enough to realize when he's getting good advice and not believe all the hype he see's on TV. A big problem today is " my buddy experience". These new guys all have "a buddy" who has killed a few deer. Suddenly they are experienced! Which is a lotta crap. They're not experienced just lucky a few times. When you walk into someone's house and every wall is covered in antlers, big and small, then that archer should be smart enough to listen to what that guy has got to say. I did and now my wife won't let me put anymore on the wall.


Also I've found that some guys like on here go there whole life without using a certain broadhead or whatever but because they didn't have to use means it's crap or won't work as good etc


----------



## ADCTD2SHOOTING (Mar 31, 2012)

KRONIIK said:


> I've heard of several very similar failures, and I'm not afraid to name the brand.- DRT. Simply crappy, cheap Chinese (?) steel. Hopefully it's being addressed- they seem like usable heads by design if not consistent execution and heat-treatment/ tempering.
> (FWIW, the failures have occurred with both their single bevel and double-bevel models.)
> This will not likely occur with good German or American steel IMO.


Well since you put me on front street. Just kidding. I did send them through 2.5 deer though. (2 pass throughs and one stop on far shoulder). 
I am giving serious consideration to trying the helix as I still like the single bevel concept and I recognize that single butterknife isn't a fair example. 
Once I have healed up from my shoulder surgery I will be back at it and I am thinking the helix will help me for a while since I will be temporarily at low poundage.


----------



## ADCTD2SHOOTING (Mar 31, 2012)

sethro02 said:


> To destroy a head like that are you sure you didn't hit a rock after pass thru


Yes. I am sure as the back of the arrow broke off on a tree and the front half which was still hanging out of the deer was pulled out by another tree. That o e was rolled the worst. 
I also sent one through a d it was stuck around and honest five inches in the dirt that is my food plot. No rocks where I dug it out and it wasn't rolled but I did have to resharpen. 
I had another deer I shot with the resharpened head and it stopped on the far shoulder of that deer. 
Shot distances were 9 yards 15 yards and 20 yards and were 411 grain arrow weight. 

The sheared screw was my fault as I pulled the shot from pushing myself too long that day and hit the 3/4" plywood backer I keep behind my target. I have personally seen a phat head and two stingers survive the plywood backer and one stinger fail on it. Only one of the stingers and the drt were mine. 
Good question I like to think I would ask the same thing.


----------



## ADCTD2SHOOTING (Mar 31, 2012)

Forgive the spelling I am using my phone.


----------



## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

mandrroofing said:


> Are you all resharping these single bevelded edges?


I use a KME and a strop block.


----------



## LvToHunt (May 10, 2011)

sethro02 said:


> Also I've found that some guys like on here go there whole life without using a certain broadhead or whatever but because they didn't have to use means it's crap or won't work as good etc


That's true. That's because they haven't experimented much. The reason for that is because they obviously have experienced some success with their current setup. What they don't realize is that until they run an arrow thru 100+ animals and also lost more than they care to admit they really aren't that experienced and really don't know what works and what doesn't work in most situations. We're just planning for the worst case scenario. They haven't experienced that yet or if they have they haven't learned from it. I have. It sounds like you have too. Sometimes it takes something like losing an exceptional animal to open some people's minds. Until that happens you can't force your knowledge onto someone. When I'm at the range I don't even bother trying to help someone anymore unless they ask 1st. usually it's waste of breath. Same thing here on AT, you waste ton's of time trying to help someone when they honestly aren't willing to listen. You can lead a horse to water but can't make them drink.


----------



## rayzor43 (Apr 8, 2011)

henro said:


> There isn't that I know of. I guess shooting a large sample source and comparing average penetration would be the best bet.


For penetration and wound channel mil spec ballistic gel is the only way to go. Bone spitting wise closest you can do is same side bones. If they are round they'd have to be hit at the high spot in the center or deflection could be a factor. Ballistic gel behind it.


----------



## rayzor43 (Apr 8, 2011)

KRONIIK said:


> Shoot at enough of them with Rages, and I doubt you're going to be around long enough to be selling much of anything...


That's pretty funny.


----------

