# Help with form, high elbow



## rj2 (Sep 18, 2012)

So I have been playing with form and DL trying to tighten up my groups, and get my hold steadier. I got some pics yesterday and never realized how high my elbow is. Also seems like my nock is pretty far back resulting in lots of face pressure. Also, I've basically always had bareshafts hitting left of fletched, and figured it was my grip, but the face pressure makes me think that might be contributing too. 

So looking at my pics for form, I was thinking maybe longer d-loop and shorter DL? I think that could move the nock forward on my face, give less face pressure, but will that help my high elbow at all?

Target is 40yds but on the ground.

Thanks in advance


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

Drop the draw length shorter and shorter and even SHORTER until the string crosses / touches corner of mouth.
Get nock to land on face HIGHER, so that means the peep has to come down.

TRIPLE the length of your d-loop...yup, you heard me, make the new d-loop 3 TIMES longer than current loop,
with the at least 1/2-inch shorter draw length.

Don't skip moving the peep DOWN, closer to the d-loop, so the nock lands HIGHER


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## rj2 (Sep 18, 2012)

Great, thanks, I'll give it a shot and report back


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

rj2 said:


> So I have been playing with form and DL trying to tighten up my groups, and get my hold steadier. I got some pics yesterday and never realized how high my elbow is. Also seems like my nock is pretty far back resulting in lots of face pressure. Also, I've basically always had bareshafts hitting left of fletched, and figured it was my grip, but the face pressure makes me think that might be contributing too.
> 
> So looking at my pics for form, I was thinking maybe longer d-loop and shorter DL? I think that could move the nock forward on my face, give less face pressure, but will that help my high elbow at all?
> 
> ...


First problem. Head is tilted backwards. Drop your chin. The face of your teeth (pretend teeth are a wall),
your teeth wall need to be 90 degrees to the arrow. Chin is too high for this arrow launch angle.










You can see the double image of your cap, so you know how much to drop your chin.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

rj2 said:


> So I have been playing with form and DL trying to tighten up my groups, and get my hold steadier. I got some pics yesterday and never realized how high my elbow is. Also seems like my nock is pretty far back resulting in lots of face pressure. Also, I've basically always had bareshafts hitting left of fletched, and figured it was my grip, but the face pressure makes me think that might be contributing too.
> 
> So looking at my pics for form, I was thinking maybe longer d-loop and shorter DL? I think that could move the nock forward on my face, give less face pressure, but will that help my high elbow at all?
> 
> ...


Second problem, which you also noticed. Drop the draw length shorter, and if needed, drop the peep LOWER
so that the string crosses/touches corner of mouth....string should not travel behind corner of mouth.










Yellow string line shows the shorter draw length, that also touches nose, AND more importantly,
crosses corner of mouth. Adjust d-loop LONGER so your release hand knuckle touches your ear, with the new SHORTER draw length, and probably higher nock position...nock lands higher on your face, so string can touch corner of mouth, AND touch tip of nose. D-loop is designed to allow you to put release hand knuckle, where-ever you want, like say knuckle touching ear. Do not use DL module position, to get release hand where you want.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

rj2 said:


> So I have been playing with form and DL trying to tighten up my groups, and get my hold steadier. I got some pics yesterday and never realized how high my elbow is. Also seems like my nock is pretty far back resulting in lots of face pressure. Also, I've basically always had bareshafts hitting left of fletched, and figured it was my grip, but the face pressure makes me think that might be contributing too.
> 
> So looking at my pics for form, I was thinking maybe longer d-loop and shorter DL? I think that could move the nock forward on my face, give less face pressure, but will that help my high elbow at all?
> 
> ...


SKY high shoulder. I did an "x-ray" to figure out forearm length, upper arm bone length, position of shoulder joints, and especially the ANGLE of your collar bones. You may not realize you have SKY HIGH right side collar bone sickness. Now you know.










LEFT side bones are in green.
RIGHT side bones are in red. I have a level horizontal THIN red line, parallel to your arrow. Tops of shoulders need to be ALWAYS parallel to the arrow. So, RIGHT collar bone is HIGH. You do not fix a SKY HIGH right collar bone with DL module position. You do it COMPLETELY with d-loop length...and learning how to PULL DOWN on the right collar bone. There are muscles in your back which can HIKE UP the right collar bone (shoulder shrugs),
and to pull DOWN the right collar bone...you do the opposite of a shoulder shrug. A shoulder shrug exercise is when you purposely LIFT UP the collar bone.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

rj2 said:


> So I have been playing with form and DL trying to tighten up my groups, and get my hold steadier. I got some pics yesterday and never realized how high my elbow is. Also seems like my nock is pretty far back resulting in lots of face pressure. Also, I've basically always had bareshafts hitting left of fletched, and figured it was my grip, but the face pressure makes me think that might be contributing too.
> 
> So looking at my pics for form, I was thinking maybe longer d-loop and shorter DL? I think that could move the nock forward on my face, give less face pressure, but will that help my high elbow at all?
> 
> ...


So, how will you LOOK, with chin lower, with teeth at 90 degrees to the arrow,
with the RIGHT collar bone no longer SKY HIGH, with the shorter DL module position, so string touches nose
AND CROSSES corner of mouth, and a longer d-loop, so you can put your release hand knuckle on your ear,
combined with the SHORTER draw length....you have VERY long bones, so you need a double or TRIPLE length d-loop, to help you with SKY HIGH right collar bone dis-ease....










Something like this. Release hand is in the same position as always. Longer d-loop will connect your release to the now more FORWARDS position off the arrow nock. New string position, cuz it now touches tip of nose AND crosses corner of mouth, with new LOWER chin height.

RIGHT armpit is feeling WEIRD, cuz you are PULLING DOWN on your right armpit, the opposite of a shoulder SHRUG UP, you are now doing a right side armpit PULL DOWN. Have your wife put her hand UNDER your right elbow, and then, your job is to push her hand DOWN, by pulling your right elbow DOWN. You will feel what muscles you need to activate, to pull your right armpit DOWN towards your waist.


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## rj2 (Sep 18, 2012)

So only small changes so far, seems to be in the right direction, but still have a few questions. 

You said to raise nock height on my face, but since the nock is always in the same spot relative to my anchor point, do you think I should try raising my anchor point slightly?

Also, I see the string came forward a bit, but still behind the corner of my mouth. Right now I have my nose just barely touching the string. I feel like if the draw length goes 1/2" shorter, the string will align well with my mouth, but I'll no longer be able to touch it with my nose. I have a Bomar nose button coming today so I think that might help a bit.

Here is an updated pic. Thanks again for all your help @nuts&bolts

I shortened draw length 1/2"
Lengthened d-loop 1/2"
Lowered peep slightly
Added 1 twist to string to straighten it out.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

One thing at a time. The arm on your glasses, needs to be parallel to the arrow.
Your head/neck is tilted backwards, cuz the draw length is just plain too long. If you go 1-inch longer on the draw, you will need to tilt your nose up even higher, the arm on your glasses will go even more uphill. So, the idea is to drop your chin to get the arm on your glasses parallel to the arrow. PURPLE arrow is your nose in your original picture. PURPLE arrow is your nose, with chin DROPPED down, to get arm of glasses parallel to the arrow.

BUT, if I drop my chin and nose THAT MUCH, the string will be behind the tip of my nose. Exactly.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

You set the peep height backwards. So, first mistake, the draw is too long. You just tip your head backwards, nose up higher and higher until you get the string to touch sky high nose, with the too long draw. You figure if the string touches nose, no matter how high your nose is, the draw is good. Then, you set the peep sky high, so you can see through the peep, when your nose is sky high.

When I cut the top of your head off digitally, and rotate the upper half of your head back down, so that the arm on your glasses is PARALLEL to the arrow, this is where the string lands...this is how far the string lands BEHIND tip of nose, with the too long draw.










Dashed black line is the height of your nose up in the air. Purple arrow shows tip of nose in the BEFORE and AFTER photo. So, the red triangle is the string angle. You can see if the doctored right side photo,
how far the tip of your nose needs to drop, to get the arm on your glasses parallel to the arrow. 

So, the Blazer vanes are exactly 2-inches long. I duplicated the yellow box, and cut the width in half, so the upper yellow box is 1-inch wide. When I drop your nose down enough, so the arm on your glasses is parallel to the arrow, the string is running exactly 1-INCH behind tip of nose.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

So, you lean backwards and your nose is up sky high in the air, to get string (on a too long draw) to touch nose.
So, let's see what happens if you lean backwards even more.
So, let's see what happens if you stand up straight (backbone is vertical, means middle of neck is above belly button).










With backbone vertical (middle of neck above belly button),
with chin dropped low enough so the arms on your glasses are parallel to the arrow,
the string will land 1 FULL INCH behind tip of nose. Let's fix draw first, let's drop chin down so head is level, then, we can fix the high draw elbow.


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## rj2 (Sep 18, 2012)

Thanks so much for all your help. Here is pic from last night, another 1" shorter on draw length from orange shirt day.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

1) puff out your chest
2) the two collar bones are like a see-saw
3) left side collar bone is artificially low. Need to swing left collar bone UP.










If you get AGGRESSIVE with the bow arm, and push the riser away from your face, push off the right ankle, like you are trying to press the front stab into a pretend wall just in front of your front stab, the left collar bone will swing up. Double yellow arrows show you how much the left armpit needs to swing UP. When you get the left armpit to RISE up 1.5-inches, the right elbow will swing DOWN also 1.5-inches. Master this puff out the chest, and push the riser aggressively away from your face, and see if you can get the tops of both shoulders parallel to the arrow....after the next photo, we go onto the next step.


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## lcaillo (Jan 5, 2014)

The clavicles do not work like a seesaw. Or at least should not. They follow the shoulder and it is hard to have the bow shoulder too low. Lower means extended to the target, and that the scapula is held down which is stable. Letting it rise is a mistake IMNSHO. When you lower the elbow on the draw side, the scapula needs to come down as well. That requires more tension in the muscles that pull the shoulder down, such as lower lat, lower trap, serratus anterior, subclav, and pectoralis minor. Just shift the scapula down.


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