# When they are ready to listen. JOAD Club



## Moebow (Jul 8, 2010)

I find what you describe to be VERY common. It is hard for many kids to accept that there is a better way and especially if they already have had some success. I, too, work with NASP and JOAD and the 260 to 280 NASP shooters are the hardest to convince to change anything. I just wait for the "teachable moment" and use video a lot to convince them that what they think they are doing may not be the case.

I believe that "forcing" a change is counter productive in most cases and a "dictatorial" approach largely ineffective. When I walk up to someone that I think I can help and get the "I don't like to do it that way" response or something similar, I leave and then they must come to me for help. I don't freely offer it again until they ask. I also will use others that have progressed as "salesmen" to the reluctant. I also point out that just because they can shoot a 275 that getting to 280 is at least as hard as getting the 275 in the first place. And that EVERY point after 280 gets harder than all the points before -- combined.

Kids (many at least) just have to reach a point where THEY realize they could do better and need help. Some never will, so I just let them shoot and have whatever fun they think they are having.

It took me a while to accept that this is voluntary and is only pursued if the individual is having fun (or think they are) . A military approach ( do this or die) just doesn't fit or work.

It's kind of this philosophy; "Are you willing to give up what you are to become what you could be?" Some kids will pay the price and some won't.

Good luck with it!!

Arne


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## XForce Girl (Feb 14, 2008)

Thank you Arne, that's pretty much what I needed to hear. 

I will patiently wait for those "teachable moments"


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## subconsciously (Aug 22, 2009)

I also use Coaches Eye. I will video them then sit down and show them how Reo, Braden or Brady does it. I will even get into the mechanics of the shot to show them why they need to do things a certain way. If that does not work, I will continue to be supportive but lay off. 

When I have an archer in the group that gets his release right and shoots a good shot I will make sure everyone here's the praise. The others will come around when they figure out they are getting left behind.


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## XForce Girl (Feb 14, 2008)

subconsciously said:


> I also use Coaches Eye. I will video them then sit down and show them how Reo, Braden or Brady does it. I will even get into the mechanics of the shot to show them why they need to do things a certain way. If that does not work, I will continue to be supportive but lay off.
> 
> When I have an archer in the group that gets his release right and shoots a good shot I will make sure everyone here's the praise. The others will come around when they figure out they are getting left behind.


I have that program and use it for private lessons but haven't used it with the kids yet.
I appreciate everyone's input and it was what I hoped you would say.
I just wanted reassurance that I was doing the right thing. I want them to be the best they can be but felt I was wasting my breath since many just aren't ready to listen yet. I wanted to be sure I wasn't doing more harm by letting them get away with doing it their way.
Thank you all.


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## Garceau (Sep 3, 2010)

Coaches eye?


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## Moebow (Jul 8, 2010)

Kevin,

Coach's Eye is a video analysis "app" for iPad/phone and Android tablets and phones. Basic app is about $5 with additional tools available for a little more (but you don't really need them for archery). You can slow motion, frame by frame, etc. Draw analysis lines, circles, grids, etc. Then email to student, post on the cloud, whatever. Great little program.

Arne


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## Garceau (Sep 3, 2010)

Thank you....


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## fslack (Jan 13, 2013)

XForce Girl said:


> I have a new JOAD Club we just started. I have 23 shooters and they all have their own bows.
> 
> Many of them are also on their schools NASP Team and pretty good shooters. As we work through the achievement levels, many of the kids have found it pretty easy to get those first 2 or three pins.
> 
> ...


We have another app that might help you.

ArcherZUpshot is a scoring app that uses the archer's shot data in an Analytics section to let them see how they are doing and how they can do better. Since it is results-based, it takes each archer's individual differences into account. As a Level II Instructor, I know we'd like to see them all doing it "right," but the truth is that everyone's body is different, and some variations of form and style can and will result in improved performance. In the end, if an archer can get a perfect score standing on his head, then by all means he should stand on his head! 

The tool in ArcherZUpshot that will help you the most is the Before and After comparisons. You can enter free-form "changes," such as a new pair of shoes, a new fingertab, a change in elbow elevation, a change in your breakfast protein levels, what have you - anything that can affect your archery performance. Those Changes are date/time-stamped, as is every shot you score in the app. You can then go to Advanced Analysis and visualize, in graphs, your performance before and after any given Change. 

Two benefits to this: first, the students don't have to "believe" you. Graphs are hard to argue with. Second, the graph can show tiny levels of improvement -- or not -- that humans cannot see otherwise. There is a reason why Brady Ellison and Jake Kaminski use this every day.

We are currently working on a Coach Edition that will allow the Coach of a team like yours to access all the students' shot data for analysis and coaching help. We've been given some ideas about what this should look like - for instance, a recent suggestion was that the app proactively analyze shot patterns that correlate with common mistakes (low grouping > dropping bow arm etc), and alert the Coach when something like this is happening. This could even be set so that the Coach is alerted even when the student is shooting in his own backyard.

This will also help coaches who have students who have to travel long distances for lessons - distance coaching with a combination of AZU and Coaches Eye is a whole lot better than no coaching!

One suggestion for you: have your students use the Numbered Arrows feature of the app. It's amazing how many slightly bad arrows have been identified with this - the arrows that might keep your kids off the podium! 

It's on Apple and Android as a free trial download. You get 500 shots to play with it before you need to make a purchase decision. (We don't want unsatisfied customers!) So there's nothing to lose to look at it - and a lot of JOAD coaches using it! 

I hope this helps,
Cheers,
Fern Slack
President, Chief Dishwasher, Level II Archery Instructor and occasional veterinarian
ArcherZUpshot


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## XForce Girl (Feb 14, 2008)

fslack said:


> We have another app that might help you.
> 
> ArcherZUpshot is a scoring app that uses the archer's shot data in an Analytics section to let them see how they are doing and how they can do better. Since it is results-based, it takes each archer's individual differences into account. As a Level II Instructor, I know we'd like to see them all doing it "right," but the truth is that everyone's body is different, and some variations of form and style can and will result in improved performance. In the end, if an archer can get a perfect score standing on his head, then by all means he should stand on his head!
> 
> ...


Fern, 
Thank you so much. I will definately check this out.
Marcy


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## fslack (Jan 13, 2013)

Marcy, let me know if you have any questions about it after you've had a look. I'm always available to help out! 
Fern


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## TheAncientOne (Feb 14, 2007)

XForce Girl said:


> I have a new JOAD Club we just started. I have 23 shooters and they all have their own bows.
> 
> Many of them are also on their schools NASP Team and pretty good shooters. As we work through the achievement levels, many of the kids have found it pretty easy to get those first 2 or three pins.
> 
> ...



I "reintroduce" the basics every time I start a new JOAD group. The archers who have been with me from the beginning pick up something "new" every time the go through a cycle. If I can improve their form a bit every time they shoot they are going to get better naturally. Some students won't make the changes right away but when they see their peers surpassing them they start paying attention to details. I usually show up at the range one night during the week to work with students that want to improve. The serious archers show up almost every week, school work permitting. It's given me an excuse to shoot once and a while (stiff fingers permitting).

One of the problems with waiting too long to make form corrections is that it gets harder to correct them the longer you wait.

TAO


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## fslack (Jan 13, 2013)

Just a thought - I haven't read it (yet), but Steve Ruis just published another coaching book, this one specifically full of ideas on HOW To introduce new things. 

http://www.amazon.com/Archery-Coach...UVA_1_3?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1387541995&sr=1-3

Here's what Steve wrote about why the book: 

For archers there are all kinds of “how to” books available in print and on the Internet, but for coaches there is hardly anything. Even the coach training courses focus on what to teach instead of how to teach it. So where should coaches go for ideas as to how to introduce various pieces of archery equipment or new elements of form and execution? There really wasn’t anything available, so I wrote this book. Steve Ruis

I read this and thought of your issues with your students.


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## XForce Girl (Feb 14, 2008)

Yes I bought this book 2 weeks ago.
Its small but pretty good.


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## fslack (Jan 13, 2013)

XForce Girl said:


> Yes I bought this book 2 weeks ago.
> Its small but pretty good.


Would love your thoughts on it.


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## Snow (Nov 17, 2013)

Moebow said:


> I find what you describe to be VERY common. It is hard for many kids to accept that there is a better way and especially if they already have had some success. I, too, work with NASP and JOAD and the 260 to 280 NASP shooters are the hardest to convince to change anything. I just wait for the "teachable moment" and use video a lot to convince them that what they think they are doing may not be the case.
> 
> I believe that "forcing" a change is counter productive in most cases and a "dictatorial" approach largely ineffective. When I walk up to someone that I think I can help and get the "I don't like to do it that way" response or something similar, I leave and then they must come to me for help. I don't freely offer it again until they ask. I also will use others that have progressed as "salesmen" to the reluctant. I also point out that just because they can shoot a 275 that getting to 280 is at least as hard as getting the 275 in the first place. And that EVERY point after 280 gets harder than all the points before -- combined.
> 
> ...



This is great advice. I have a soon to be 10 year daughter that is motivated internally (aka a little shy).
Here is how a child that is internally motivated responds:

They may be reticent to ask for help. It pays off to offer advice again and let them know it is OK to ask questions. This is very different from the extroverted child who might say that they want to do it their own way.
They may not be too excited about competition with others. They are generally more co-operative and need to balance out the competitive side. Having pure fun activities and jokes help.
One of the most positive thing about this kind of child is that they tend to listen to advice and persevere at activities while being a "team player". A huge plus in archery. My child comes to the line, exhales, sets her feet, positions her torso before doing anything.

My daughter has had two coaches so far:
One is very set on getting kids ready for big matches. Has a lot of repetitive exercises, drills. mandatory form, etc. A very set and somewhat regimented program. His kids have historically done fantastically well in big matches without question. They are usually the more extroverted kid.

The other coach wanders around and might take a couple of shots himself. Chats up and laughs with the kids. Is very casual about giving advice (gives great advice). There is only a kid or two that will do good in the big matches. 

My daughter chose the more relaxed coach. I think in time that she may change over and use both coaches when she is ready for a more disciplined method, but for now she is happy.

Xforce,by asking your questions I feel that are a great coach. My daughter's current favorite coach shot for James Madison in Va.


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## XForce Girl (Feb 14, 2008)

Snow said:


> This is great advice. I have a soon to be 10 year daughter that is motivated internally (aka a little shy).
> Here is how a child that is internally motivated responds:
> 
> They may be reticent to ask for help. It pays off to offer advice again and let them know it is OK to ask questions. This is very different from the extroverted child who might say that they want to do it their own way.
> ...


Yes there certainly are different personalities in our group and I tend to be more like the second coach. Walking back and forth on the line and spending a little time with each child on what I see that individual may need.
Occasionally one may come in on another day to practice and I always try to come out from behind the counter to spend some one on one time with them.
I figure they must be dedicated to want to come practice without the group. But maybe its because they are shy.
I will try to alternate their practices with both shooting and drills ( back to basics) on alternate days.

The results of our first mail in tournament will be posted soon and I look forward to seeing how they did.
I'm thinking when I share the results with them I will have a lot more interest in what I have to say. And many will be ready to listen and get better.
Right now they (some of them) feel they are doing their best and already as good as they will ever be.
I've prepared them for upcoming coaching and told them they may get worse before they get better but to trust me as I have their best interest in mind.
I want them to get better.

On a side note: I have a shooter who says he cannot slow down. He draws and shoots and hopes his arrow goes where he wants.
What are some tips to help him? Is this a type of target panic?
I stand by him and try to talk him through the shot process but every time when he reaches his anchor he just releases his arrow.
I swear he just isn't trying but he says he can't help it.
Any suggestions?


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