# Opinions Please?



## ZarkSniper (Aug 12, 2003)

Well, I just typed up a long reply to this and then AT locked up when I went to send it...I'm not re-typing it...

Raising attendance has been debated alot on here...what will do it? Who knows.
As far as flighting local shoots? Well I don't think there is enough attendance to do it. When was the last time ANYONE had 80-100 shooters at a regular local 3D tourny? I can't remember when, but I remember it used to happen regularly.
It's a Catch22...no one wants to do anything unless numbers increase, but the numbers won't increase unless something is done.


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## cath8r (Jan 17, 2003)

Jay is right. This topic has been debated alot the last few years. Having been to a few ProAms myself, I know how amazing it is to see 1100-1500 shooters at a tourny. 
I remeber 3D's hayday in our area when there used to be 2 local 3D shoots every weekend and 125 would go to one then drive to the other when they were done the first one! Awesome times in the mid 90's. 
We then went through a spell when it was considered lucky to get 45-60 to show up at a shoot. Hardly worth it for clubs to keep targets and go through the work of setting out 30-40 3D's for the weekend. Some clubs folded. 
Lately, the last few years, 65-80 shooters go to our local 3D's. A significant increase. 
I think that the reason behind the decline has several reasons:
1. In the early 90's the economy was still based on a 40 hour week. There wasn't any Sunday shopping yet. People had time to shoot 3D and go spend all the time they needed with their families. The 60-80 hour week didn't exist yet for alot of people. Its funny how 3D attendance went down the tubes when the ecomnomy took off.
2. The 3D demographic was/is mostly young men in their 20's and 30's. Alot of them started families and having kids after that initial boom in 3D attendance in the 90's. I can relate to this one. I've shot probably 6 3D's in the last 2 years since getting married, having a son and starting a new career. 
3. The 3D pecking order got established after that big boom in the 90's. Guys would go to a shoot and knew that they were going to place in a certain spot every weekend. I think that had alot to do with people giving up on 3D. 

Sorry for the long winded post. Maybe I covered what Jay had in mind in his post before it got zapped. I've thought alot about this topic myself as it is pretty near and dear to my heart as well. I really miss the days when local 3D was THE thing to do on a Sunday morning.


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## Baldini (Mar 7, 2005)

How would you flight the first day of competition? At Nationals, you're grouped alphabetically and then peer grouped. I imagine that it's similar at the American events. Because of the nature of 3-D, you don't have qualiying times or scores or handicaps, and I don't think that they would be of great concern to most of the participants anyways. The only way to get more people in a class is to get more people over-all. Disregarding National or Provincial championships, the best attended shoots in Ontario and Quebec that I'm aware of this year have been the R-100 and the Hoyt Shoot near Montreal, and the Running Bear normally draws more than Provincials. As I type this, the second leg of the triple crown is getting underway at York and I'm not there. It's a great place to shoot and would be a lot of fun, but I have a limited number of free weekends and it's too far to drive for just the Sunday. Now, none of those really well attended shoots are flighted, but they are a lot of fun, and I think that's why they get the attendance that they do. That and in memory of John, "It's all about the door prizes!". 

Declining attendance means that more people are leaving the sport that joining. Painfully obvious, I know, but we need to start any sermon somewhere. So, how do we get more people starting the sport? It starts with every archer. Bring a friend to try a bow somewhere. Tell a friend about your local club or range. Have an archery group event at work. Most importantly of all, SUPPORT YOUR LOCAL CLUB, STORE AND RANGE!!! When was the last time you saw someone in Canada getting rich from archery? It doesn't happen. Running an archery store with a place to shoot is about a 75 hour a week job (I'm probably on the low side) with very little return on that effort. Most of these places offer lessons. Lessons bring people to the sport. More people in the sport increases attendance. See where I'm going? Now, spend some time in your local shop. Most of you probably already do. Ever seen someone walk into the store, spend an hour or so of the shop keeper's time getting expert advice, opening up a couple packages, playing with a couple sights and broadheads and then saying "Thanks, but I'm just looking here. I'm going to buy it online and save $2.50." There's a cost to having that package there to see. There's a cost to having that range there for you to use. There's a cost to having an instructor, teaching equipment and proper insurance. If you want that package to be there, that range to be there, more people in the sport, the store owner needs to be able to afford to eat. It's like shopping at Walmart, for every $1 you spend there, 50 cents goes to China and doesn't come back.


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## Guest (Jul 27, 2008)

Yuo are comparing a country with 10 times the population to ours for attendance numbers???????, if you shoot stateside and have 50 women and shoot here and have 5 thats your population difference. 

If you want more women shooters bring them with you, there is nothing stopping them from shooting and shooting the same scores as the men do at that. Fiona just shot and won then Michigan state field champs and guess what ya she was the only one the there, no different than here many times. I think with the price of gas and many trying to car pool we just may see an increase but you can't make them come


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## cdhunter (Feb 4, 2006)

the reasons that everyone has given for poor attendance all carry merit and imo combine towards the real source of the problem.

Flighted groups work for short term development but eventually establish their own pecking order,defeating the sole purpose for their use.

cath8r one of the big reasons you hit squarely on the head increased work hour week. With a family, I'm limited to the number of shoots a summer I can attend and a spouse that works retail reduces those numbers even more with Sunday shopping. My current job has me on call 24/7 reducing the distance I can travel to a shoot meaning I have to be with in thirty minutes of the city at all times unless on holidays(cell phones suck).

Baldini you speak of pro shops needing the support of the local shooters and I agree. But this relationship is two fold pro shops need to promote and support the shooters as well. I don't think that it is to much work for a pro shop to have an up todate wipe board listing local shoots, people rely to much on the internet to provide the info to the general public and never ever reach their target,because of people like Fred. Fred has never thought of shooting a tournament and only goes to the pro shop when he breaks something shooting in his back yard. He goes in to the shop, grab what he needs and leaves, not being a regular who help supports the counter from falling over he never hears about the two bobs 3d and bbq shoot coming up and never attends!!!! Everyone looses out on this deal, the pro shop looses future sales due to freds desire to get better, the clubs loose out on attendance and fred looses out on the opportunity to meet and share his chosen sport with like minded people and grow.

Sean one thing that I couldn't agree more is if you want better attendance than drag them along kicking and screaming. You would be surprised at how many don't attend due to no travel arrangements. if some one offered Fred a ride or was willing to ride along with fred, fred would probably be more inclined to go to more events.

One thing that wasn't mentioned but has to be said is, we the archers have to do a better job of reaching out to others and promoting our sport. This week marks the start of the field and target nationals here in Winnipeg. Being a national event you would think that the local media would be tired of all the lead in stories for this event and it would be discussed as much as the national convention for Ukarian clog hoppers but no not a word this is not Knock against ED or Jeff and the rest of their commitee who have been working really hard at making this the best nationals they can or against Jay lyonn who must going crazy by now fielding interview request leading into the olympics, but we as archer have fallen down in promoting our sport. The provincial bodies and the fca need to develope a position on our boards that strictly deal with media relations and the public promotion and image of our sport to often the only coverage archery get is when some idiot shoots some bird with a field point and the animal get its picture taken with an arrow hangin out its........ just my two cents


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## ZarkSniper (Aug 12, 2003)

Lots have the answers, not enough stepping up.

I only wish I had the time to be able take on the extra work to do my part...but working 170kms from home doesn't leave much excess time in a week. I can hardly drag my @55 to the club to shoot or help Sean and Fifi fix that damn place up...:embara:


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## Xs24-7 (Aug 1, 2002)

cdhunter said:


> One thing that wasn't mentioned but has to be said is, we the archers have to do a better job of reaching out to others and promoting our sport. This week marks the start of the field and target nationals here in Winnipeg. Being a national event you would think that the local media would be tired of all the lead in stories for this event and it would be discussed as much as the national convention for Ukarian clog hoppers but no not a word this is not Knock against ED or Jeff and the rest of their commitee who have been working really hard at making this the best nationals they can or against Jay lyonn who must going crazy by now fielding interview request leading into the olympics, but we as archer have fallen down in promoting our sport. The provincial bodies and the fca need to develope a position on our boards that strictly deal with media relations and the public promotion and image of our sport to often the only coverage archery get is when some idiot shoots some bird with a field point and the animal get its picture taken with an arrow hangin out its........ just my two cents


All forms of media have been informed of the nationals several times, and I know that some will be there. It isnt for lack of trying, but aside from listing the results in the "Amateur sports" page, they really dont care. Archery doesnt sell newspapers/advertising. Results in the paper also doesnt put any more archers on our line. We need to stop trying to be the PGA tour and focus on our real market. Manitoba has 2000 bowhunters(ie. people who own bows) and gets 40 people to a 3-D...if we really want to grow the sport, it is these people we need to attract. Forget the rest of them, if we got every bowhunter to shoot one shoot a year, we couldnt handle the influx of new shooters....


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## cdhunter (Feb 4, 2006)

Ed I hope you didn't take my comments personally as far as I'm concerned you Jeff and the rest of the committee have done an exellent job promoting and organizing this event and when all the awards and accolades are finished, you guys deserve around of applause. From upgrading the facilities at sanford to helping secure the cmu campus for the fita event, you and the committee have been on top of this from the beginning and a long and lasting legacy will be left behind.

jay, I hope you don't feel singled out. With your qualifying for the olympics you've done your part promoting our sport in the province, time and time again. I've watched you be approached and take the time to have your picture taken young aspiring archers to encouraging current archers to reach father.

I have admittedly have stumbled in my dealings with the media. After the indoor provincials I've had a lot on my plate starting a new job and a few other side projects. I apologize for not providing the nationals committee with better support in the media relations department or helping you guys build on the contacts I had already established:embara:

Ed your point of reaching out to the 2000 archers and recruiting them is exactly the point I was trying to make with my fred example. we just have to figure out how to reach these 2000 and make it attractive for these people to attend. Be it hey it's your first tournament, it's on the house, to a summer tournament pass with a chance to win a cardboard cut out of mano when full I don't know the answer but one things for sure, the same people day in and day out are the same ones putting in all the effort and this has to change to many clubs in Manitoba and I can only speak for Manitoba, hold charters with abam and enjoy all the benefits of the abam membership but never host a tournament or for that matter any other event for the abam membership other than their own club this has to improve and this direction has to come from our leadership. I apologize for this rambling but I'm tired of watching people like yourself Ed and the Gunters, Lachances, Vogts, Tataryns , Garrods, Furdyk and I know I've missed some who regularly contribute like brad who day in and out bust their butts to improve archery in this province only to hear people say it's not enough. enough said. 

Again Ed I apologize my earlier rant wasn't against you or the committee or their efforts which have extraordinary but mostly against the local media and their lack of support for this great event. this:darkbeer::darkbeer: is from my family to you Jeff and the rest of the committee for a job well done.


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## Elitegirl (Jun 18, 2008)

*Schools*

I think part of the dwindling turn-out to archery events has a lot to do with the decline of archery clubs in schools. Because of expense and liability there are a lot fewer high schools offering archery as an option. I'm not sure how to fix that one.

I agree with the comments above that young families have a hard time coming out as much as they used to...Hoody123 and I are in that boat right now and we will keep coming back because we love the sport (Brianna's getting her very first bow for Christmas!)- it's the young families who are new to the sport that need to be focused on.

One way to ensure that new families who venture out for the first time return, is to make sure that the course isn't too hard. (speaking strictly 3D here) If the first 15 targets are all 37+ yards away, and you have to play twister to get a clear path to the target AND you have to be at least 6 feet tall to see the target over that little hill - THEY AREN'T GOING TO COME BACK! 
Add some fun for the little ones - take those damaged targets that you replaced last year and set up a 5-butt course for the really small children. If we can bring out the young folks and show them a really good time, the future of archery will be a bright one.


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## CLASSICHUNTER (May 20, 2005)

*I agree*

Elite girl has the right Idea here KISS method works here... Just shot the second leg of the triple crown and was a bit disappointed in the venue of hosting club... course layout left a few things to be desired... simple things like arrows for directions of way to go down the paths, hunters tape closing off forks in the paths and lots of people walking back on course looking like where do I go next, simple things like bring bow with you signs then you know the path leads off of the target... course set up has to be as if you have never shot there before.... Also there was not even one door prize or raffle by this hosting club.. I`m going to a tournament in 2 weeks where everybody leaves with a door prize big or small... these prizes cost the club nothing as donated by the local business community.... Also the vice president was told of 2-3 targets where the shooters actually went behind one of the targets on the two separate courses and I mean in clear view... I was told can`t change it now DUH yes you can it is a safety issue here... we don`t need a accident to get all of the clubs insurances canceled here.....Sorry if I sound negative here but was tournament director for a couple of clubs and had as many as 225 shooters turn up in one day and the program go off without a hitch at all...YES IT TAKES WORK..But if you want the clubs to survive then it has to be done.... Make the shoots interesting revue each target from a left and right hand shooters position and a tall or a short persons line as well then you can as the rules say as long as the vitals have a CLEAR shot the target is good if I remember correctly See you guys at the third leg ...... Madawaska :darkbeer:


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## XTRMN8R (Mar 26, 2004)

sorry...a bit late joining in to this one but,
a few reasons why we are short on new archers at the 3D shoots...and I will keep it short.
Price of fuel, shoots are expensive for the whole family, no door prize etc., the nice trophy's are now cheap medals, the good clubs don't host shoots at all now, the shops are Not supporting the sport (most of the staff at the shops shoot very little themself and don't have shop teams anymore), lack of youngsters at the shoots,
but the big one is lack of volunteers to do all of the required work and when people do step up they get crapped on.

WAY TO GO all the folks in Picton who did a great job and put in a huge effort and same to the guys at YCB who are out every year doing the dirty work Your efforts do not go unoticed.

Now I could make many comments on all the above topics but the bottom line is every hunter, every archer, every shop should stop *****ing and do a little work rather than undermine the efforts of others. That goes for all of us that enjoy this sport and want it to remain. And I include my self in that list.
Dave


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## ZarkSniper (Aug 12, 2003)

XTRMN8R said:


> sorry...a bit late joining in to this one but,
> a few reasons why we are short on new archers at the 3D shoots...and I will keep it short.
> Price of fuel, shoots are expensive for the whole family, no door prize etc., the nice trophy's are now cheap medals, the good clubs don't host shoots at all now, the shops are Not supporting the sport (most of the staff at the shops shoot very little themself and don't have shop teams anymore), lack of youngsters at the shoots,
> but the big one is lack of volunteers to do all of the required work and when people do step up they get crapped on.
> ...


Working at an archery shop isn't exactly what I call an awesome living, so you will find that most of us will have an additional job. Alot of times making it a little hard to attend as many shoots as we want. For me, the shop is my P/T job, and has been for the last 18 years. The last couple years have been write off's for me, with my new F/T job, and this has really cut down on the tourny's I can attend. 
I still try and shoot when ever I can, so I am ready to kick your azz when I can get out there.:wink:


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## pintojk (Jan 31, 2003)

XTRMN8R said:


> sorry...a bit late joining in to this one but,
> a few reasons why we are short on new archers at the 3D shoots...and I will keep it short.
> Price of fuel,
> 
> ...


Sorry XTRMN8R, I not trying to pick on you here, but honestly in Ontario there's like 6-10 tourneys that you could classify as "majors" over the course of the year ..... the rest are really just a day having fun with friends. 

We need to get the word "tournament" out of the directories, just simply call them "shoots" 

There was 15 or so people at the last field at Caledon, 6 or 7 in Mens Freestyle ..... can we really call that a tournament ??? 

Oh well, enough of my ramblings ..... see ya at Peterborough


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## Reed (Jun 18, 2002)

ZarkSniper said:


> Working at an archery shop isn't exactly what I call an awesome living, so you will find that most of us will have an additional job. Alot of times making it a little hard to attend as many shoots as we want. For me, the shop is my P/T job, and has been for the last 18 years. The last couple years have been write off's for me, with my new F/T job, and this has really cut down on the tourny's I can attend.
> I still try and shoot when ever I can, so I am ready to kick your azz when I can get out there.:wink:



I will agree that owning /working at a shop can be a pain. THe owner of the local shop is thinking he is going to miss the 3d nats this weekend. Just to close to the season here to be away form the shop. I get to go play, but guess here I will be the next to weekends:tongue:


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## XTRMN8R (Mar 26, 2004)

hey Pinto
I agree with everything you have said. It just goes to show there is more to this picture than meets the eye.
I would like to see some clubs have "shoots" where people can shoot for fun without the tourney attitude, but the majors should be held as larger events.
The Rinehart was a great shoot.

I do understand that pro shop owners can't get to all the shoots but I honestly feel they could do more for the clubs in their area as apposed to trying to bring revenue into the shop directly. For example I think staff could spread the word when customers come in to buy gear. "hey how about a copy of the directory. Have you ever tried 3D" etc.

I like the Durham shoot. Good folks, volunteers, door prizes, challenging course etc.


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## ZarkSniper (Aug 12, 2003)

XTRMN8R said:


> hey Pinto
> I agree with everything you have said. It just goes to show there is more to this picture than meets the eye.
> I would like to see some clubs have "shoots" where people can shoot for fun without the tourney attitude, but the majors should be held as larger events.
> The Rinehart was a great shoot.
> ...


We post local shoots on our website...We have any flyers we can get, sitting on our counter.,,and I can't count how many times I have told customers about shoots AND offered to take new people to shoots...it's like I'm twisting their arms. We give draw prizes to local shoots. 
Can we do more? Maybe, but so could they...How about starting by co-ordinating with the other local clubs and have their shoots on different days? 
Why don't you come work at the shop for us, so we can go shoot?


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## #1 Hogger (Aug 17, 2005)

I just finished shooting the Algomma Tripple Crown attendence was down Why lots of door prizes good food BIG trophys everything you can ask for and every course was redesigned this year all were very challenging. Good work and a BIG ATTA BOY to the 3 clubs of the SOO. That being said GAS and its soaring price was a major problem with a lot of people this year $1.35/ and that was down Holidays for some not being able to take as many or times were wrong The diehards were there and will always be there I wouldn't miss it for the world


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## araz2114 (Jan 13, 2003)

Hey Sniper... great posting. Your head may grow big enough to explode but I am going to say it. I agree with Zarksniper.... There I said it..... As you know I have been on the other side of the counter. It is very difficult to work at a archery shop and shoot competetively. The work never ends. I love helping people but some are just rude or try to haggle price with you while you are shooting... come on! Sunday is thier day off....

I know that The Bow Shop's website also has upcoming shoots on the front page. George is always willing to supply door prizes. The organizers need to ask.... he isn't going to just offer to give stuff away. I am in the same boat as you trying to get people to come to shoots. Too many are turned off by the "tournament" why can't they just come out and shoot. 

I TOTALLY agree with the coordination of clubs getting their act together so the shoots don't overlap. If the local clubs all had different dates for their shoots we could choose which weekend we shot and not have to choose which club we shoot at that weekend.


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