# What are the pros and cons of the JDT?



## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Really depends on who is asking the question. And, who they ask.

I was one of the original four JDT coaches, asked by Tom Parrish and Coach Lee to organize the program and set the course back in 2006. There was a lot of learning, brainstorming, failure and success in the early days of the program. I had two of my personal students in the program, and recommended it to several other students I had worked with. 

In 2007, I had to step away from the program for what I felt were two important reasons. First, I was spending all my annual leave (vacation time) with other people's kids, and although I thoroughly enjoyed being a coach - an the kids seemed to respond well to my coaching - I didn't feel it was fair to my wife and my own three kids to continue using all my vacation time for others. Second, myself and several of the other initial coaches felt the instruction was changing from session to session, and we were always a step behind. Unless you were able to attend every camp, you couldn't keep up with the changes. I felt the program had potential, and believed coach Lee was a great coach, but that it needed to take a little more shape and settle down before I committed more time to it. 

Eventually, with the dedication of many volunteer coaches, the program has taken shape and grown. It has offered great opportunities to many young archers they simply would not have had otherwise. That's the up side.

The other side is that it has come at great cost to many families, and to some individual archers too. We saw quite a few injuries crop up with the young archers attempting to shoot the "BEST" method. This was for a variety of reasons. Sometimes the kids were just overdoing it. Sometimes the individual student just simply could not achieve the positions they were being asked to achieve. Sometimes, coaches were not interpreting the method correctly. Lots of reasons. But many of us JOAD coaches noticed that some "collateral damage" was occurring to archers who in some cases, quit the sport as a result.

Other archers in the program suffered significant declines in performance (scores) that seriously damaged their confidence. This was predictable, and was explained to the students up front, but in practice, it was still a very bitter pill for them to swallow. My own top student at the time went from setting the National double-70M cadet record in 2006 to barely being able to keep all his arrows on the bale a year later. He seriously considered quitting the sport completely. It was only by my encouragement that he stayed with the program and eventually improved his performance - to the point where he neary broke 1300 as a Junior, and recently won the Intercollegiate Archery Championships despite representing a tiny junior college as a one person "team." 

So, as you can see, there is no easy answer. 

Some have said I have been critical of the program and in some cases this is true, but only because I want to see it reach the potential we had hoped for it from the very beginning. For those that prefer facts, the facts will show that my advice to my own personal student was to "stay the course" and stick with the program, not quit, and that coach Lee was who he needed to be learning from.

Now, I am just not sure I can make the same recommendation for young ladies, but again, I've not been with the program for some time. But for young men, I believe the NTS is indeed a very good method for them to learn if they truly want to become world class archers someday.

I'll finish with this thought: The JDT, RA Program and the NTS is, in my opinion, are serious training programs that require tremendous dedication and financial resources. If an archer's goal is NOT to become a world class archer someday, I am not sure I can recommend they pursue these pathways of instruction. And I will go to my grave insisting that a young person should NEVER forego getting an education to shoot archery full-time. 

So, that's my .02


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## Cephas (Sep 7, 2010)

*Now, I am just not sure I can make the same recommendation for young ladies, but again, I've not been with the program for some time. But for young men, I believe the NTS is indeed a very good method for them to learn if they truly want to become world class archers someday.* 

Limbwalker, could you expound on your reluctance to recommend the program for the young ladies? As the father of a young lady archer I would like to hear whatever you have to say on this subject. She shoots at a large center in FL that is NTS oriented.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Obviously, we haven't seen the success on the women's side of the program as we have the men's. Why? I don't know. I can only guess. Answer is best left up to those young ladies who have trained in the JDT/RA programs, their parents, and their personal coaches. But personally I've seen more young ladies struggle with the BEST/NTS method than I have young men. When I look at Miranda - a product of the JDT - I see a hybrid of form, much like Brady's. Took what they could from the BEST method, added some of their own, and then owned it. (an interesting side note is that both Brady and Miranda's fathers are superb coaches in their own right  I think that taking the BEST/NTS to heart, then incorporating an individuals personal strengths is really the best final outcome an archer can ask for. Khatuna was already a great archer before ever setting foot on the OTC, and obviously Jenny is a product of the PSE training facilities (Alexander K.). One could argue that considering their physical limitations (small stature, only), Heather and especially Kristin have performed well, but still not quite up to world class standards yet. I am also working with one current JDT female archer, and her form is VERY solid. So I can see some benefits of the program as it is being taught today.

Looking back in the program, there were many accomplished female archers who tried to adopt the BEST method, trained at the OTC, and never really developed into competitive world class archers. Women like Kate Anderson, Joy Fahrenkrog, Karen Scovatto, Lindsey Pian, the uber-talented Margo Stuchin, and others trained for years and just never quite reached the level of a Jenny, Khatuna or now, Miranda. So really, despite having produced a solid 5-6 world class men in the past 6 years, we're still at just one for the women. 

It begs the question: "what's the problem?" Why can't our U.S. women use this program to develop into world class archers? You could ask the same question of the Australian women, where coach Lee taught prior to coming to the U.S. Good enough to qualify a full team to the Olympic games - at least in 2004 - but not really competitive.

I've been asking this question for a while, a few times of coach Lee directly, with no real satisfactory answer. Those within the program always want to point to Miranda, or some of the junior women who have medaled at Pan Am or other 2nd tier events, but I think we know the difference. Some have said the "right women" have not yet come along. Why then did the "right men" come along, but not the right women? Some have said they just need more time. Perhaps that's true. 

I think that part of it is a communcation barrier, part of it is learning what the ladies need to be successful, and part of it is a lack of recruiting of big, athletic women with real competitive attitude. 

But these are just my opinions. 

John


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## HikerDave (Jan 1, 2011)

limbwalker said:


> Obviously, we haven't seen the success on the women's side of the program as we have the men's. Why? I don't know. I can only guess. Answer is best left up to those young ladies who have trained in the JDT/RA programs, their parents, and their personal coaches. But personally I've seen more young ladies struggle with the BEST/NTS method than I have young men. When I look at Miranda - a product of the JDT - I see a hybrid of form, much like Brady's. Took what they could from the BEST method, added some of their own, and then owned it. (an interesting side note is that both Brady and Miranda's fathers are superb coaches in their own right  I think that taking the BEST/NTS to heart, then incorporating an individuals personal strengths is really the best final outcome an archer can ask for. Khatuna was already a great archer before ever setting foot on the OTC, and obviously Jenny is a product of the PSE training facilities (Alexander K.). One could argue that considering their physical limitations (small stature, only), Heather and especially Kristin have performed well, but still not quite up to world class standards yet. I am also working with one current JDT female archer, and her form is VERY solid. So I can see some benefits of the program as it is being taught today.
> 
> Looking back in the program, there were many accomplished female archers who tried to adopt the BEST method, trained at the OTC, and never really developed into competitive world class archers. Women like Kate Anderson, Joy Fahrenkrog, Karen Scovatto, Lindsey Pian, the uber-talented Margo Stuchin, and others trained for years and just never quite reached the level of a Jenny, Khatuna or now, Miranda. So really, despite having produced a solid 5-6 world class men in the past 6 years, we're still at just one for the women.
> 
> ...


At the Western Region JOAD Camp Mel and Julie Nichols talked about how coaching women is very different than coaching men.

As the camp was ending I as I thanked Mel and I remarked to him about how well my daughter responded to Kari Granville's coaching, Mel mentioned that he specifically asked for a female coach to be included as a coach because he thought that the presence of a female coach would make the camp much better, especially for the girls.

So I think that the powers-that-be have figured out that girls just need to be coached differently.

I think that the competitive attitude is a tough one for girls. My daughter has an ambivalent attitude about winning and so does her mother. I think that they're wired differently.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Yes, it is rare that the same coach is equally effective with male and female archers. It takes a certain kind of person to coach the women. It doesn't always have to be a woman either, in fact, most of the time, the best coach for women is a male coach. But, women are different in that if they don't trust you first, they don't care what you know... And they usually want to know "why" you're asking them to do something. Men can usually just do it without asking for an explanation. These are critical differences that many men don't get. Especially if they haven't been married or have daughters of their own...

Too often, coaches are "talking down" to female archers, without even realizing it. I can tell you this is a show-stopper!

Communication is everthing.

John


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## dal.las12 (Apr 22, 2011)

Here’s a synopsis of what I’ve gathered so far. I’d be curious how many JDT grads went on to college, shot in college, whether or nor they graduated, and what were their majors. I’ll bet most did pretty well after JDT as the sport tends to attract smart kids.

Pros
Maturity: Leadership and mentoring from older kids.
Athletic: RA and Olympics opportunities, and improved scores.
Academic: Training at OTC and recommendation from coaches helps on college apps.

Cons
Maturity: May experience jealousy and envy from others.
Athletic: Mastering the NTS takes many years and no archer is bigger than the program.
Academic: Will miss many school days.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

One other (major) con: $$$$

It costs LOTS of money for a kid to really participate in the JDT program. Parents of JDT kids tend to hemmorage cash. Some don't mind, others are still paying for it all, even after their kids quit shooting.

John


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## dal.las12 (Apr 22, 2011)

Oh yeah, how can I forget that one. However, after reading the website it confuses me that there's no mention of the cost of the program. From the looks of the website there is no tuition or costs outside of air travel to the OTC, am I wrong?

Let’s try again at the list.

Pros
Maturity: Leadership and mentoring from older kids.
Athletic: RA and Olympics opportunities, and improved scores.
Academic: Training at OTC and recommendation from coaches helps on college apps.
Economics: Free or reduced cost uniforms

Cons
Maturity: May experience jealousy and envy from others.
Athletic: Mastering the NTS takes many years and no archer is bigger than the program.
Academic: Will miss many school days.
Economics: Cost is high (not sure how much though).


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

No, I didn't mean tuition. I mean airfare mostly. And other related expenses. There is no way I could afford to put one of my kids on a round trip flight to San Diego 4x/year (or more) then have them travel to Mexico, or San Salvador, etc. for an international event, then enter them in as many NAA outdoor events as they are expected to shoot in... It could easily add up to 7-10K/ year or more, depending on the kid. 

John


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## Huntmaster (Jan 30, 2003)

limbwalker said:


> And they usually want to know "why" you're asking them to do something. John


I WANT Miranda to ask "Why". In my mind, blindly running forward is going to eventually leave your face print on a tree. If you understand why, you should be able to piece it together and figure out exactly WHAT you're trying to accomplish and HOW. Only when you get the CORRECT result will you know you're doing it right.

She was always the pain at camp, and I'm proud of her for it. There's nothing worse than the blind leading the blind, so if the one being asked doesn't know, I want to talk to someone who does. 




limbwalker said:


> Communication is everthing.
> 
> John


This is the correct answer.


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## cityhic (Jan 3, 2009)

Hmmm, correct me if I am wrong about the durations and quantities for each cost breakdown for a typical training session. If I understand it correctly, a parent might spend in upwards of $7K while the value they are receiving $68.5K. I suspect that other sports don’t invest this much on the future hopefuls.

$100 /hr for coaching (5 days, 8 hr/day, 4 coaches) = $16,000
$15 /meal (3 meals per day, 2 snacks, 5 days) = $375
$50 /room (5 days) = $250
$50 /airport ride (pick-up, drop-off) = $100
$100 /hr sports psychologist, trainer, or other specialist = $400

Total value per camp: $17,125
4 training sessions per year = $68,500


If it were my money, I’m not sure I would invest my money so freely on future hopefuls who haven’t committed to the sport nor the organization (poor ROI risk). However, in the case of the adult elites they are showing commitment through their actions of making huge personal and family sacrifices to the sport and organization (good ROI risk). Kids and parents alike need to realize that junior programs like JDT are experimental projects that help the NAA identify a few young talents like Brady and Miranda. Today we use the JDT program tomorrow it might be an iphone app. Don’t get me wrong, I like kids and I like kid programs, but if it were my money I would try to create a win-win environment for the kids, coaches, and programs. The first thing I would do is compensate coaches for their time at JDT camps. This way the kids could get exposure to the best coaching from the likes of Huntmaster and Limbwalker etc, coaches can now justify their time, and the athletic skill level will measurably deepen. Kids will come and go but it’s the coaches that sustain the program and the depth of the skill level of the athlete.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

All good points. Yes, the value they are receiving is hard to measure, but you have some of the values laid out well there. I don't agree with the coaching value though. A JDT student may get 8 hours of one-on-one instruction per week, and about 20 hours of group instruction from coaches of mixed qualifications. The rest of the time is down time, physical fitness time, etc. So I'd put the coaching value around $1K per camp. Certainly not $16K. But the rest of the figures I'd agree with. 

So, each camp I would value at around $2,125 per student. 

Figure in the cost of round-trip tickets and time off work for the parents to get them to the airport and pick them up, etc., and it's probably a wash. 

So, for those families that can afford to spend $8K or so each year JUST on JDT camps, I say go for it. Add this to the already high budget for traveling to U.S. events, and you're looking at probably $12K/year, and if you throw in one international event every year (just one), then you're probably looking at $15K/year, conservatively.

But as the commercials say... Priceless... Right? ha, ha. 

We've been over this many times, but this sport, at the elite levels, is for wealthy families only. Because they will spend all this with ZERO ROI when it comes to college scholarships or professional paychecks for their kid in the future. Yes, all sports get pricey at the elite levels, but if a young person is performing at the elite level (and it's arguable that many of these JDT kids are...) in other sports, there is a very good chance that some college, somewhere will at least waive their tuition and books to get them to swim, play volleyball, softball, tennis, baseball or another sport there... So this is why I say it's a sport for the wealthy at the elite level. You have to have enough income to be able to afford these trips, knowing full well you STILL have to somehow pay for their college too.

I'll use my own son Adam as an example here. More than talented enough to be placed on the JDT. He won the NFAA indoor nationals when he was 11, and could easily pick up a bow today and shoot a 600 double-70 with a few week's practice. He's 6' 2", athltetic and mentally tough with a 31.5" draw length. If I had pushed him, he would have continued archery and would have met all the qualifications for the JDT. And he's very coachable, so I know he would have flourished in that environment. At 17, I could easily see him shooting as well as Forrest, Aaron, Nick, Matt, or perhaps Daniel. 

But to what end? I would be out probably $35K in the past 5 years and we'd be in an even bigger hole trying to pay for his college this fall.

This, in my opinion, is what is influencing our available talent pool for recurve archery in this country the most. And Cityhic, your comment about compensating the JDT coaches is spot-on. Perhaps they do that now, I don't know. How a few of those coaches are able to continue with the program AND travel internationally is beyond me. They MUST have won the lottery at some point in their past...

John


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## gairsz (Mar 6, 2008)

If you have not attended camp as a shooter or an observer coach, there is no way you would know the pros or cons. There are just too many kids, too many coaches, and too much politics for it to be a benefit. Find a good coach, read a few archery books, and practice a lot. You could take a group of the young shooters out there today, put them on the field and have them shoot every day, eight hours a day, for 6 to 8 years and the percentage of world class shooters would be about the same as the current program is producing. Talent finds a way. Programs don't make champions, individuals become champions. If you are driven, have the heart and mind, are willing to do what it takes, and make the sacrifice, you can reach whatever dream you reach for.

If a team recruits all the best players then that team would appear to be the best. The players were already good before they got there.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

> Talent finds a way. Programs don't make champions, individuals become champions.


Very true.



> If a team recruits all the best players then that team would appear to be the best. The players were already good before they got there.


also very true.

Look, I'm a "do it yourself" kind of guy. If there is a way for me to figure out something for myself, then I'll figure it out. And I take pride in the fact that I figured it out for myself, because then, I own it, and nobody else. And if I fail, then I own that too. But at least it's mine.

For folks that do things themselves (and you know who you are...) - programs like the JDT may not be critical to their success. Or perhaps a few camps to get the fundamentals, then off you go. But for those whose DNA is set to require and depend on the advice of "experts" (and you know who you are too), then that's what programs like the JDT are for. 

Some people own all the tools they need to change their own oil in their car, adjust the timing, clean and re-gap spark plugs, plug tires, replace faulty alternators, recharge a/c units, etc. These are the people that go to AutoZone, buy the Chilton's repair guide, then shop for parts... These folks can usually get to a very high level on their own, through the excellent instruction available in various books these days. I can recommend a few.

Others are completely intimidated by the idea of doing any of those things I mentioned above, don't trust themselves to do it right, want to be able to take it back if it isn't done correctly, and don't mind paying for the service and the mechanic's time. Those are the folks who need to be in these programs.

It's not a "right or wrong" thing, but rather a personality thing, IMO...

Now, some might tell you (including me) that trying to learn coach Lee's very complex method through a book is nearly pointless, and potentially harmful. I say this because of the many really bad examples I've seen from people who have attempted this. They bought the book, and then contorted their bodied in all sorts of weird ways to try and shoot this "new" method, usually resulting in injury or poor scores or both. 

Sometimes I wonder why coach Lee even published his books, because I can tell you that without his hands-on explanation, most folks just aren't going to figure out what he means, plain and simple. 

But archery is a journey, and there are many ways to skin the cat. Just look at the styles of the past several Olympic champions. All different. You need to find out what works for YOU and what style of learning you're comfortable with. There is so much great information out there now that's affordable, or in some cases - free, that if a person wants to get started, they really have no excuses. 

I may not be typical (I like to think I am, but others have told me otherwise...) but I was the only "coach" I had prior to making the Olympic team. No, I may not have been shooting at quite the level of Butch or Vic, but I managed to beat both of them in my matches at the trials, and managed to shoot 330's in competition that year and finish the year ranked 4th in the U.S. All while being self-coached. I should have taped the word "COACH" on my video camera and Rick McKinney's book, because that's how I did it. 

Will it work for everyone? Of course not. Good coaches are recognized as such for a reason, but mature adults shouldn't completely depend on them either. Juniors on the other hand? They can really benefit from a good coach - as much for the mental side as the physical...

John


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## JDT_Dad (Nov 5, 2008)

*JDT worth it?*



dal.las12 said:


> I've seen the shirts and read the official website and it seems like a good program. But, I've also seen a couple of posts here that indicate that there's more to it that I don't know. Now, I don't know....


You will get as many answers to this question as there are members of the JDT. You wil not get the full story on AT, even from me. Opinions will vary based on personal experiences. My daughters experience has been positive overall, but people just coming into the program will have a very different experience mainly because the program has evolved over time. The JDT was originally conceived as a bridge between the RA program and JOAD clubs. The JDT was a developmental program with the emphasis on learning a new form. Over time it has become a score oriented competition team. Camps are spent shooting in some form of competition for nearly 3 days out of a typical 5 day camp. Perhaps two days per camp are spent in rectification, working in 4/5 person groups with an elite coach.

With the camps now being held 3 times per year, you get 48 hours/year of group coaching for the cost of traveling to the OTC three times. For us that works out to about $30/hr of coaching. However the cost of attending the camps is just the tip of the iceberg. The majority of the outlays are incurred attending the required USAT competitions. Each archer is required to attend enough tournaments to get a national rankiing. Many of the more competitive archers will attend most, if not all of the USAT tournaments. The more tournaments you attend, the higher the athlete's KPI (key performance indicator) ranking. If one Includes airfare for the athlete and one or two parents, hotel, car rental and meals, the tab can easily approach $ 8k/year. Additionally, students are strongly encouraged to purchase top of the line equipment. Sometimes the pressure to buy the latest equipment comes from their peers, but it also comes from the coaches. Discounts apply, but expect to spend big bucks. 

In return, if you are one of the top 4 male or female shooters on the JDT you will typically get to travel to one fully funded international event per year. Traveling internationally, learning to compete in unfamiliar surroundings, eating food you don't recognize, experiencing new cultures, making new friends, and building self esteem are hard to put a dollar value on. 

Most JDT members also get regular help in the form of SKYPE coaching sessions each week. The volunteer coaches really do put in a ton of time with these kids. The perceived value of being a JDT member, will to a large extent, depend your relationship with your assigned JDT coach.

Finally, if you want to learn NTS at a very high level, there is no substitute for access to Coach Lee. We have trained many capable NTS coaches over the years, but nobody comes close to Coach Lee, except perhaps his wife, Ha Park, who is a really excellent coach in her own right. Access to Coach Lee is *the* reason Michelle is still a member of the JDT.

Michelle has had the best possible experience one could expect with the JDT. I am not saying this is typical. In fact most parents and athletes have had very different experiences with the JDT. If you want to understand the pros and cons of the JDT, just privately approach any JDT parent and I promise, you will get an earful. I typically spend 1 or 2 hours a day on the phone with other JDT parents. Believe me when I say, there are many, many incredible stories out there. Sometimes I think I missed my calling as a therapist. I could make lots more money being a therapist to JDT parents than I could ever hope to make as a coach.

Dave


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

> Finally, if you want to learn NTS at a very high level, there is no substitute for access to Coach Lee. We have trained many capable NTS coaches over the years, but nobody comes close to Coach Lee, except perhaps his wife, Ha Park, who is a really excellent coach in her own right. Access to Coach Lee is the reason Michelle is still a member of the JDT.


Agreed. Glad to see I'm not the only one with experience in the program that feels this way.



> I could make lots more money being a therapist to JDT parents than I could ever hope to make as a coach


Ditto. Been at it since the inception of the program. I can tell you the year, day and the hour this began. It was on an archery field in Ohio, ironically.

John


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## gairsz (Mar 6, 2008)

JDT_Dad said:


> Sometimes I think I missed my calling as a therapist. I could make lots more money being a therapist to JDT parents than I could ever hope to make as a coach.


I would say the best part of Matt's time on the JDT is becoming friends with Dave, Michelle and Sue Gilbert. Dave, Thank you for all you do for Team Zumbo.

Gary


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## Warbow (Apr 18, 2006)

Limbwalker said:


> Sometimes I wonder why coach Lee even published his books, because I can tell you that without his hands-on explanation, most folks just aren't going to figure out what he means, plain and simple.





[URL="http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/member.php?u=115850" said:


> *JDT_Dad*[/URL]]Finally, if you want to learn NTS at a very high level, there is no substitute for access to Coach Lee. We have trained many capable NTS coaches over the years, but nobody comes close to Coach Lee, except perhaps his wife, Ha Park, who is a really excellent coach in her own right. Access to Coach Lee is the reason Michelle is still a member of the JDT.


I'm still wondering if NTS is really clear and robust enough to be a *National* Training System as opposed to the RA/JDT training system taught in person by coach lee and a few of his top coaches.

As to the books, the are the only access most people will ever have to hearing Coach Lee's words "directly" aside from the KSL website. I find learning motion from static pictures in books to be very, very hard. But I also find learning second or third hand with no reference videos or books to check on thing, perhaps, even harder, and teaching, even more so. Not sure what the answer is on that. But I do think that USA Archery needs to step up to the plate and offer supplemental training materials for instructors and students--more than just the coaching manuals. I'd like a website I can point new students to that has all the coaching manual stuff in it from a students perspective. Some people learn better through a combination of means.


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## TexARC (Mar 5, 2003)

I do not usually talk here (anymore) but the issue of female archer excellence is one I have a t-shirt from. 14 or so years ago I began an odyssey with my daughter, 12 at the time and in a wheelchair. Before that, I had surrendered any hope of sharing a sport with my child, a terrible thing to me given my interests. I seized upon it, and when she started exceeding my scores, realized the opportunities to spend more time with her (yes, an excuse!) We became a team of students - her in the sport, me in the coaching, and we learned from the best (and the worst, frankly). Long story short, during her career in archery she attained a ranking of 8th (I think) among able-bodied senior women in 2005, which was pretty good for a paralympian. She set a few paralympian records in Athens in 2004 as a standing recurve archer, including a 603 OR qualifier of 72 arrows at 70 meters. With a variety of issues fighting her efforts, she managed to shoot the highest matchplay recurve score of the day in taking a bronze medal in Beijing - every archer she faced in Athens AND in Beijing had been competing for more years than she had been alive. In my perceptions she has defined the very epitome of what the Don Rabska/Best/NST method can do for *anyone*. Without Don's teachings, neither me as a coach nor Lindsey as an archer could have succeeded in this adventure. Without a doubt, the proper implementation of what we now refer to as the NST is a major key to success for any athlete, especially for the athlete with an "inconvenience".
I am also certain that the coach applying it must be intelligent about the unique character of the athlete, and that includes the fundamental difference caused by gender (I consider it kind of a precondition that I have to adopt before ever, ever, opening my mouth as a coach with any student). It has been my observations at the JDT camp I attended as a silenced observer, as well as "in the field" and "at the OTC" camps I have experienced several times a year for a few years, that most coaches do not share this perspective with me. 
This is a critical achilles heel in the program, and being able to communicate effectively can only come from a greater awareness in how to relate to the athlete, especially the female. I am proof that a male coach CAN communicate well enough to insure the female athlete does not give up in frustration and can instead go as far as she wants. (Not what I want, what she wants). It is incredibly hard to span the gap, so to speak, and to understand "her". I wonder often if the culture the coach comes from does not put up an incredible barrier in some cases before us today.
Costs. Yes, pursuit of excellence is incredibly expensive. The family as a whole must decide what is worth what. As John so wisely did, frankly. As did I, Gina, and Lindsey when faced with the realization that she had something special. I would spend every penny again, of course, and I would make far fewer mistakes along the way  - love the hindsight resolution.
Is the JDT necessary? Maybe, maybe not. Given access to an effective coach, and enough tournament experience (nothing like "real life lessons"), any archer can achieve their personal maximum even without a JDT shirt. Will that "best" be the top step? Only a few will have that, in the world, and the vast majority of those who have attained "JDT status" do NOT make it to the top step, and I do have concerns at the sheer number of "lost" athletes. 
Is sport cruel? As with life itself, it is neither good nor bad, it just is....what you make of it...
Injuries: I witnessed several career-ending-injuries in process during one camp in particular. I am also confident that properly implemented, the NTS can, repeat can and not "always will", decrease injuries. I can't begin to comprehend the actions and attitudes of some coaches I have known. When you have an athlete that can break a bone, rip a muscle from bone, with the slightest wrong move, you develop a far more sensitive attitude about fundamental health and cautions. A failure to understand this and to have this kind of caution, is one reason why I am certain that coaches lead or allow most archers to be overbowed and therefore more likely to physically fail their potential career. Males in particular, though perfect physical specimens of either gender can be harmed by the overriding desires of a coach. Most archers overgrip as well, but that is another windmill for some other time.
JDT? I actually cringed when I first heard the phrase - in my experience just prior to that, the American Dream Team had made asses of themselves with their hubris at the Olympic games. I hope that I would not have let Lindsey into that environment, frankly. It never became an issue, as she was too old when the concept was realized. Though, she did spend more than a week at the OTC at one particular point prior to Beijing (among many dozens of weekly stays there throughout her career) and was completely ignored by most of the coaching staff - even washing windows to demonstrate her willingness to work was not sufficient to convince the head coach to work with her. Being a part of a team that insures excellent coaching WOULD be great if that were the case. At least in the earlier days when she was a teen, I could sometimes pay the coach at the OTC an extra "fee", and he would then work with her. There was no "team" for her to be on other than the para team, and at that time USA Archery wouldn't have anything to do with paras. I am glad that they decided to step up, just as the USOC has stepped up in some ways to support paras. At least, they no longer make the paras pay their own way to the games. Maybe some day they won't rate them at 1/10 the value of oly athletes. Maybe.


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## kshet26 (Dec 20, 2010)

Warbow said:


> As to the books, the are the only access most people will ever have to hearing Coach Lee's words "directly" aside from the KSL website. I find learning motion from static pictures in books to be very, very hard. But I also find learning second or third hand with no reference videos or books to check on thing, perhaps, even harder, and teaching, even more so. Not sure what the answer is on that. But I do think that USA Archery needs to step up to the plate and offer supplemental training materials for instructors and students--more than just the coaching manuals. I'd like a website I can point new students to that has all the coaching manual stuff in it from a students perspective. Some people learn better through a combination of means.


I second this. I've seen Brady's Next Level videos and while quite good, they lack depth or specifics. Inside the Archer should have a web companion, where specific videos reference what is being talked about and shown in the book.


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## gairsz (Mar 6, 2008)

If something is so complex that it is too difficult to manage, then it is probably not the way to go. There is a great book out there that will help most people. The SIMPLE Art of Winning.


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## Warbow (Apr 18, 2006)

kshet26 said:


> I second this. I've seen Brady's Next Level videos and while quite good, they lack depth or specifics. Inside the Archer should have a web companion, where specific videos reference what is being talked about and shown in the book.


Yeah, I've got to say those videos are disappointing. Brady is awesome, but he's new to making instructional videos. Lots of experts have trouble with that.

And Inside the Archer needs a couple of web videos--the RAs and JDTs may not need them having direct access to Coach Lee and his immediate disciples (well, if they deign to work with a particular archer) but they are a tiny, tiny minority of those who are being trained in some variant of NTS by USA Archery instructors.

Sometimes when you mention Inside the Archer, or the Astra shot trainer, Tyler magically shows up in the forum. Once, when he did so, I mentioned that a couple of simple videos were really needed, exemplars of the idealized NTS system, not what it looks like once personalized by Tyler or Brady. I note that Tyler probably already has a camera that would be just fine for making such a video and it doesn't need to be anything fancy. I even volunteered to do post production on such a video. But he seemed very uninterested in doing so--he's a very talented guy, but also very business oriented. I don't think he saw a big enough profit in the video examples as opposed to the very nicely laid out but very expensive book that he got USA Archer to make required reading.

Given that, I think it is USA Archery's responsibility to put up video exemplars. The NTS system is supposed to be rolled out nationwide, and a version of it is taught even in the Level 1 manuals. And they tell instructors that they can show students a video if the instructor can't model the shot sequence perfectly (or they did when I took them). But there is no *exemplar* provided by USA Archery for this purpose.


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## lksseven (Mar 21, 2010)

"Yes, it is rare that the same coach is equally effective with male and female archers. It takes a certain kind of person to coach the women. It doesn't always have to be a woman either, in fact, most of the time, the best coach for women is a male coach. But, women are different in that if they don't trust you first, they don't care what you know... And they usually want to know "why" you're asking them to do something. Men can usually just do it without asking for an explanation. These are critical differences that many men don't get. Especially if they haven't been married or have daughters of their own...

Too often, coaches are "talking down" to female archers, without even realizing it. I can tell you this is a show-stopper!

Communication is everthing."

So true. I watched that happen with my daughter's softball team. The (pregnant) female coach quit early in the season due to come pregnancy issues, and the school brought in a former junior high football male coach for the rest of the year - total disaster. Continual exodus of players from the team, low morale, seething disharmony ... not pleasant or productive.

My favorite portrayal of this dynamic (coaching females versus males) was an article in Sports Illustrated in the Nineties about the legendary U of North Carolina soccer coach Anson Dorrance (15 national championships in 19 years) ... Here's the link, and also one of the insightful excerpts ....

""Here's an example," he says. "I had this guy warm up my team in the early '80s. He was studying exercise physiology at UNC, and it was unbelievable what he did: The women were in a lather, doing agility stuff—just an incredible warmup. They were so ready to play, and I was thinking, A gift has been given to me. But a month and a half into the season, our morale was shot. I couldn't put my finger on it. Finally we went back to our old warmup: The girls come to the field, put on their shoes for five or 10 minutes, and in groups of twos and threes they catch up on their lives. Then they jog around the field and end up in a place out of my earshot, stretching. But they're not really stretching. They're socializing. Our morale returned in two weeks.

"It was a wonderful lesson, a reminder of what's important. Men put their shoes on, they stretch, they play. But our team socializes at every opportunity, and that's as much a reason for our success as the fitness training we do. That 15 minutes it takes for them to put their shoes on and jog around and stretch is a total waste of time, but it's critical for team-building.""

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/article/magazine/MAG1014737/1/index.htm


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## underdog145 (Dec 6, 2009)

You cant coach passion. Someone could have the best form on the planet, but if they did not have the want and need to win, they wont. Period. I have never been coached myself and those that know me know how successfull I have been. Not because i was ever part of a team or a top student or even a member of a club of other shooters, but because I wanted to be the best i could be and i had a will and desire to win.


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## HikerDave (Jan 1, 2011)

Warbow said:


> Yeah, I've got to say those videos are disappointing. Brady is awesome, but he's new to making instructional videos. Lots of experts have trouble with that.
> 
> And Inside the Archer needs a couple of web videos--the RAs and JDTs may not need them having direct access to Coach Lee and his immediate disciples (well, if they deign to work with a particular archer) but they are a tiny, tiny minority of those who are being trained in some variant of NTS by USA Archery instructors.
> 
> ...


The trickle-down theory is working in Arizona. Nathan Yamaguchi, a dream team member, put on separate clinics for youth and adult archers as a charity fund raiser. I attended this and got some excellent instruction from he and his father, who was assisting him.


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## Jim C (Oct 15, 2002)

Nathan is young man who is both talented and a really good person. He is staying with my two JDT kids now and he has been out to our range the last several days. He also was helping at a summer archery camp Lizard ran this last week. He is an excellent instructor and a credit to the sport. 

I have had three club members on JDT-including the first year version and the current version. I had another boy turn it down and my son is sort of thinking about it after he shot a qualifying score this last weekend. I have mixed feelings about it. I believe the twins would have been top archers with or without it. Since I own the range they train on, I know how much they train. Plus they have 3-4 coaches in this area including one up on the "current" system as well as arguably the best archer in history. 

I just don't know if I can allow my son to miss that much school. Plus he wants to play HS tennis-his HS has the #2 and #3 players in the entire state so he has a good chance of being on a couple state championship teams I also have mixed emotions about the current wisdom of making 14-16 year old kids basically give up other activities. we will see


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

We've come a long way with JDT to even be able to have a civil discussion with many mixed opinions here. I applaud all who have contribued. Several great perspectives, and important points, have been raised. This should be "must read" material for prospective JDT parents IMO.

John


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## Landed in AZ (May 11, 2008)

JDT_Dad said:


> You will get as many answers to this question as there are members of the JDT. You wil not get the full story on AT, even from me. Opinions will vary based on personal experiences. My daughters experience has been positive overall, but people just coming into the program will have a very different experience mainly because the program has evolved over time. The JDT was originally conceived as a bridge between the RA program and JOAD clubs. The JDT was a developmental program with the emphasis on learning a new form. Over time it has become a score oriented competition team. Camps are spent shooting in some form of competition for nearly 3 days out of a typical 5 day camp. Perhaps two days per camp are spent in rectification, working in 4/5 person groups with an elite coach.
> 
> With the camps now being held 3 times per year, you get 48 hours/year of group coaching for the cost of traveling to the OTC three times. For us that works out to about $30/hr of coaching. However the cost of attending the camps is just the tip of the iceberg. The majority of the outlays are incurred attending the required USAT competitions. Each archer is required to attend enough tournaments to get a national rankiing. Many of the more competitive archers will attend most, if not all of the USAT tournaments. The more tournaments you attend, the higher the athlete's KPI (key performance indicator) ranking. If one Includes airfare for the athlete and one or two parents, hotel, car rental and meals, the tab can easily approach $ 8k/year. Additionally, students are strongly encouraged to purchase top of the line equipment. Sometimes the pressure to buy the latest equipment comes from their peers, but it also comes from the coaches. Discounts apply, but expect to spend big bucks.
> 
> ...


I couldn't agree more that you will get a million different answers to this question. I will say that if you only spend $8k per year attending all the events and JDT camps that you are one of the lucky ones. We almost always spent $10-15k per year, year after year. Would I change any of that...no way. There are other things I would do differently but providing my daughter with the opportunities she got was amazing. 

What I will caution you about is the coaching. Just because they are a JDT coach does not mean they are an "Elite" Coach. There are coaches on that team that will screw up your child and even injure your child. Now don't get me wrong, there are also many "Elite" coaches on that team. I realize they all likely have that title but that does not mean they can coach or that they truly understand Coach Lee's method. Kiley had Coach Lee correct many things that she was taught directly from coaches on JDT. I have seen coaches on JDT run archers into the ground verbally and made them cry and still did not let up. I might add it was over something usually very stupid too. But when you have an amazing experience like Kiley had on the Red Team trip to Pan Am Championships where Coach Dee Falks stood behind her and coached her to a Bronze medal you step back and kind of remember only those good things. I was asked by Denise Parker why we stayed on the JDT though all of what Kiley went through and the answer was always exactly what Dave points out "access to Coach Lee". He can correct something so quickly and detect form errors immediately. It is amazing to watch.

But one thing I will differ from in Dave's post is that the Red Team is *NOT* the top four archers it is Coach Lee's pick. So don't think if you are top four in USAT that someone behind you won't get selected over you. It has happened and still happens. It is Coach Lee's team and he can and will do what he wants.

The other issue is that it is a political land mind field. You have to be very careful what you and who you say it to. You would not think this to be true but because of what I am doing on the Ted Stevens Act there is no way Kiley could safely compete at this time. I know many will scoff at that comment but if you knew what I know about USAA you would understand and there are many who have posted in this thread would tell you the same thing. 

I won't tell you it's a bad program because it isn't. You just need to have your eyes and ears open. Make sure you understand the coaches and get as much information as possible from a wide range of folks regarding each coach. What John tells you about a coach and what I tell you about a coach will be from two different perspectives and two different situations so the opinions will vary greatly. That does not say one is more right then the other, it just says understand the source and understand the circumstances that come from behind the situation involved and then make your own decision on what is best for your child.


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## JDT_Dad (Nov 5, 2008)

Landed in AZ said:


> I couldn't agree more that you will get a million different answers to this question. I will say that if you only spend $8k per year attending all the events and JDT camps that you are one of the lucky ones. We almost always spent $10-15k per year, year after year. Would I change any of that...no way. There are other things I would do differently but providing my daughter with the opportunities she got was amazing.


You are correct Barb. Most will spend $10 to 15k per year, I was thinking more of someone attending the minimum number of tournaments, say nationals and three USAT events. $2k per trip. We always spent way more.

I also agree with your point on the Red Team not necessarily being the top 4 athletes. As you say, Coach Lee picks his team. Those who are chosen for the team are very happy, and those who don't make the team seem to call me to complain. There is no trials process whereby an athlete earns his/her spot on the team in a competition. The lack of an open Red Team selection process is the kind of thing that drives JDT parents nuts and causes my phone to ring off the hook. Now I must say, Michelle has been the beneficiary of this process (or lack thereof), so who am I to complain.:wink:

Dave


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Guess with this new program in place, we get a little glimpse of what it's like to be involved in sport in other countries...

Hope that's what we all want.


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## dal.las12 (Apr 22, 2011)

gairsz said:


> If you have not attended camp as a shooter or an observer coach, there is no way you would know the pros or cons. There are just too many kids, too many coaches, and too much politics for it to be a benefit.


Thanks helpful post. Everyone makes the best choices they have for their kids with the information they have available to them. Everyone’s got 20/20 hind sight vision so I’m sure you made the right choice to sign up when you did.

If you don’t mind, what was it you and your kid wanted to get out of the JDT program? Did you achieve your goals? Else where did it fail you?


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## JDT_Dad (Nov 5, 2008)

The JDT teeaches much more than the basic form. They teach many life lessons. They teach the value of hard work, what it takes to be successful., how to both win and lose gracefully. Finally my daughter has become a much more confident, mature young lady and I have to give much credit to the JDT program and coaches for her progress. Is the program perfect? No. Can it be improved? Yes. Is it for everyone? No. Would I do it all over again? Yes

Expenses can be held lower than the $15k/yr that is being thrown about on this thread. One only needs to go to enough tournaments to get a national ranking. I believe that mean you need JOAD Nationals and two other USAT events. No need for all the YEAR events. I would estimate the total costs to be on the order of $6 to 8k per year. Less if you stay and travel with friends.

Overall, the experience has been very good for my daughter.


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## Landed in AZ (May 11, 2008)

One con is that once you are assigned a coach it takes an act of congress to get reassigned if you and the coach don't get along. Come to think of it even an act of congress won't likely get it changed.


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