# NY Strong support needed for AR regs



## cityhunter346 (Jun 26, 2006)

Oh God....wait till doctari gets a hold of this one :wink:


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## lOnEwOlF110 (Dec 7, 2004)

Im all for ARs unless its your first buck.


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## VA2 (Mar 26, 2007)

ttt


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## TreeBandit (Nov 18, 2008)

We need more ar areas and a longer bow season.


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## sawtoothscream (Apr 19, 2008)

antler restrictions. i dont mind them but not alot of epople obey it anyways.

im taking the first decent buck i see with my bow. if it is a good spike its down. i have been having bad luck with archery hunting and i just want to down something.

but i would rather take a big fat doe instead of a small buck. if i wanted i could have nailed a few bucks by now but never felt right about taking such a litttle buck.


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## sawtoothscream (Apr 19, 2008)

TreeBandit said:


> We need more ar areas and a longer bow season.


yes a way way longer bow season. 4 weeks isnt enough time.


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## bowhuntnsteve (Jul 1, 2006)

I would luv the A/R's in my 9J. I hunt the PA/NY line, what I pass up or is passed up in PA (4pts on a side) is getting whacked on the NY side of the line. So many I see thru the season, I am seeing dragged out the 1st week of shotgun season in NY. Just my 2 cents worth but would like to see something.


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## polarbear06 (Oct 30, 2007)

Sorry, no help from me...the science doesn't back up AR's. Count me among the 20%.

Calling DoctariAFC....You're as up on this stuff as anyone....what say you?


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## gjs4 (Jan 10, 2006)

I would back the one buck proposition now- most likely yes to the ARs; but would want to know more. Not the complete answers to getting big ones everywhere but they would be a step towards that in my opinion.


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## SteveB (Dec 18, 2003)

That 20% is at least 50% around me in central NY - a good thing that I will work hard at to maintain. 

Amazing how the fact :


> DEC does not see a critical biological need or compelling management advantage to mandate such restrictions


 can be ignored by so many who claim their only interest in mandatory AR is for "the health of the herd".

Steve


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## DHUNTER (Oct 24, 2004)

The laws can be changed. But, how would they be enforced? We cannot get the current laws enforced. Until we enforce pouching and posting laws you change all the laws you want it will NOT make any difference.


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## PAstringking (Dec 8, 2006)

i like going to NY where there are NO AR restricitions!! we have our own restricitions on the properties we hunt


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## BOWCHIEF (Oct 6, 2006)

I'm an AR supporter in principle but don't think it should be regulated. Some folks out there really need the meat and times are tough.


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## Brett/NY (Jan 7, 2003)

How about earn a buck and then the one buck has an AR? Sounds good to me. Oh wait, I forgot, guys need to shoot 3 spikes per year instead of 3 does....


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## phumb (Oct 7, 2006)

where are all these "percentages" coming from?....don't believe I ever heard of a vote on this?????


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## sits in trees (Oct 9, 2006)

i'm in 3j, and yes AR is working. we are seeing and killing bucks with bones on their heads. :darkbeer:


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## SteveB (Dec 18, 2003)

According to the DEC reports, the 3 trial areas are barely marginally different - other then overall buck take is down and few does are allowed to be taken.

Sounds like hunters there have little to hunt and AR is not doing anything real to change it.

Steve


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## proXarchery (Apr 9, 2004)

new york has as good as any genetics in the deer herd that all of the big buck states.(some experts say better) what we need is AGE STRUCTURE) FACT a buck with great genetics will never be a big racked buck if he dosent live past his 2 nd birthday. If you dont believe this is one thing but dont say dont pass it because people wont adhere to the law if passed, because then you will never know.


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## VA2 (Mar 26, 2007)

ttt


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## three under (May 17, 2007)

This country is starting to feel more and more like Russia every day. I'm gonna get pissed if someone starts telling me what bucks I can and can't
shoot.


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## cityhunter346 (Jun 26, 2006)

three under said:


> This country is starting to feel more and more like Russia every day. I'm gonna get pissed if someone starts telling me what bucks I can and can't
> shoot.


And this is a prime example of why AR's will never work. Guys either don't wanna be told what to shoot or "need the meat to feed their families."


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## lOnEwOlF110 (Dec 7, 2004)

I have heard some really good things from the AR zones in Putnam County. In Westchester, a lot of people pass on smaller bucks because there are alot of deer. I can understand why some people upstate shoot spikes and forkys, its because they see few if any deer all season and feel obligated to shoot one. But we have to start somewhere.


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## VA2 (Mar 26, 2007)

You’re already told what to shoot in NY…………………….


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## SteveB (Dec 18, 2003)

We are told how many each of antlered and antlerless.

And we are given the definintion for doing so.
We are not currently told we cannot shoot certain bucks at all - like 1 1/2 yo spikes and 4's while shooting all the 1 1/2 6 or betters.

We are not told that hunting goals must match someone's who want to shoot those mature 1 1/2 yo 6 or 8 pt trophies.

Steve


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## matty ny (Feb 11, 2003)

earn a buck is a great idea. you turn your doe tag in get another then the state will get a better idea of deer populations in that particular area


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## NoSecondBest (Jan 18, 2009)

*You're watching too many hunting videos*

NY isn't going to go to accross the board for AR hunting. Too many hunters simply want to get a deer. Nothing wrong with that. I personally don't eat the horns and I haven't even kept one set off of the many bucks I have shot. I actually don't understand the mentality of thinking you had a better hunt shooting a large antlered buck as opposed to someone shooting a smaller buck. If each party enjoyed their successful hunt why do we have to measure success by horn size? To each his own. I don't shoot small bucks simply because I know where I hunt I can hold off and get a bigger one. Most hunters don't enjoy that luxury. Hunting state land with a lot of competition and a generous amount of anterless deer permits has decimated the deer herd in many parts of the Southern Tier. Hunter numbers are declining in NY and this will only cause more hunters to give it up.


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## Tax Lawyer (Feb 5, 2003)

It won't change the way I hunt. Let's do it and see what happens.....


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## NEWYORKHILLBILLY (Nov 17, 2007)

three under said:


> This country is starting to feel more and more like Russia every day. I'm gonna get pissed if someone starts telling me what bucks I can and can't
> shoot.



If you live in new york you already being told what to shoot when to shoot what time to shoot and how long a spike has to be. 

I all for the ar restriction, but am concerned It will bring out of state hunters.


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## three under (May 17, 2007)

mikedgates said:


> If you live in new york you already being told what to shoot when to shoot what time to shoot and how long a spike has to be.
> 
> I all for the ar restriction, but am concerned It will bring out of state hunters.


True but if I'm on stand and have a buck and a doe tag in my back tag holder I can shoot any whitetail that presents itself. I'm not a it's brown it's down hunter and I pass on bucks every season for reasons that are my business. The point is the choice is still mine and I don't want that choice taken away because some horn worshipers want to push there ideas of what a quality hunt is on the rest of the population.


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## NYBOWHUNTER.COM (Mar 20, 2008)

I don't know if ARs would work on a statewide basis, but it might work on a WMU basis. I'd like to see it down in Westchester and Putnam.


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## Meleagris1 (Jan 8, 2003)

> Should the antler restriction program continue? 3
> WMUs 3C and 3J: 60% of respondents said the program should continue, 29% said it should not continue, 11% had no opinion.
> WMUs 3H and 3K: 77% of respondents said the program should continue, 14% said it should not continue, 9% had no opinion.
> 
> ...


The above text is taken from the DEC's website. 

Steve, let be honest with ourselves, we all have been living with antler restrictions in New York for over 50 years. NY's current antler restrictions prohibit the killing of a buck with antlers less than 3". The DEC mandates that you not shoot a spike or fork horn with less than 3" of antler on a NYS buck tag. It is illegal to do so. This is a harvest restriction based on antler size . . . .that's right, an "antler restriction". The new antler restrictions simply change "3 inches of antler" to "3 points a side". You are trying to spin this as something more than that, but its really that simple. 

Personally I'd rather see a buck lottery as is done in many states where hunting pressure exceeds the ability of the resource to regenerate into upper age classes. With a lottery system you can shoot whatever you want, but you may not be able to get a buck tag every year. This system is successfully implemented all over the US by many different states. 

The bottomline is that NY has very long seasons and extremely liberal bag limits. Its been this way for years, to the benefit of those who just want to shoot any deer. I don't have a lot of sympathy for those who don't want to compromise at all, they have had it their way for nearly 100 years in NY. Some complain that opportunities are being taken from them. All I can say is "welcome to the club". Its about time a compromise is made. 3 points per side isn't much, but its a step in the right direction.


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## cityhunter346 (Jun 26, 2006)

NYBOWHUNTER.COM said:


> I don't know if ARs would work on a statewide basis, but it might work on a WMU basis. I'd like to see it down in Westchester and Putnam.


You'll never see it down here. Too many guys sit on stand all season waiting for a buck, letting dozens of does go past. We need earn a buck and a 1 buck rule in Westchester. The doe pop. would go down, and the quality and quantity of bucks would go up.


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## gjs4 (Jan 10, 2006)

I was amazed to see that western Ny had ~55 approval (per an arcticle in this weeks NYON)...that means there is only 10% needed for institution...

:mg:


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## spoco57 (Aug 31, 2005)

NoSecondBest said:


> NY isn't going to go to accross the board for AR hunting. Too many hunters simply want to get a deer. Nothing wrong with that. I personally don't eat the horns and I haven't even kept one set off of the many bucks I have shot. I actually don't understand the mentality of thinking you had a better hunt shooting a large antlered buck as opposed to someone shooting a smaller buck. If each party enjoyed their successful hunt why do we have to measure success by horn size? To each his own. I don't shoot small bucks simply because I know where I hunt I can hold off and get a bigger one. Most hunters don't enjoy that luxury. Hunting state land with a lot of competition and a generous amount of anterless deer permits has decimated the deer herd in many parts of the Southern Tier. Hunter numbers are declining in NY and this will only cause more hunters to give it up.


+1 :thumbs_up


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## Meleagris1 (Jan 8, 2003)

gjs4 said:


> I was amazed to see that western Ny had ~55 approval (per an arcticle in this weeks NYON)...that means there is only 10% needed for institution...
> 
> :mg:



The other part of the DEC's equation that they have now articulated is that there can be no more than 20% "strongly opposed" when doing their surveys.


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## gjs4 (Jan 10, 2006)

(insert that sounds of a plane crashing we all made as kids....)


:sad:


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## SteveB (Dec 18, 2003)

> 3 points per side isn't much, but its a step in the right direction.


Step in the right direction?
For who?
The 55% of the 1 1/2 yo bucks in CNY.
From most reports, western Ny is probably similar.
A statewide 3 pt side would increase the pressure even more on this 55% (in CNY) to let spikes and forks go.
Since we are using quotes from the DEC, how about:



> DEC does not see a critical biological need or compelling management advantage to mandate such restrictions.






> With a lottery system you can shoot whatever you want, but you may not be able to get a buck tag every year. This system is successfully implemented all over the US by many different states.


I may be wrong, but states that have this tend to have a very limited resource. Purpose is not for increasing "trophy" potential. 



> The new antler restrictions simply change "3 inches of antler" to "3 points a side". You are trying to spin this as something more than that, but its really that simple.


No spin at all. You have been around long enough to know the purpose of the 3" rule is for reasonable field identification of male deer. Under 3" was felt to be to hard to see at typical shotgun ranges - over 3" was easier. You know - compromise . It was never to restrict hunters from shooting a buck - it was to give a reasonable, legal definition of a buck. And it was never about a misguided attempt to protect 1 1/2 yo bucks.

I pass on younger bucks. I get to hunt a lot in areas that have a great population so I get to take a good number of does. Many hunters do not get either the time or opportunities I do. I will never let my desire to take a mature buck infringe on their hunting by supporting restrictions that have " critical biological need or compelling management advantage " - according to the DEC. I will not be that selfish.

Steve


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## babscanes (Feb 3, 2009)

dont even get me started. I hunt WNY where I live and it has the potential to be just as good as ohio but our season structure is a joke, there is zero enforcement, and the dec management (not officers) have no clue. Where I hunt there are 3 dec cops for the whole county! good luck guys, I give you all the credit in the world for the jobs you do but you stand no chance against the poachers out there. 

You cant have a month of gun season and expect bucks to make it out alive.

I am not for earn a buck or antler restrictions, I pass up all 1.5yr olds and every year I either get or miss a 2.5 buck. anything larger is mostly luck and a huge bonus. My father still gets a thrill out of 1.5yr olds, am I to say stop shooting them? it takes the thrill out of it for him and thats why we are out there right? 

Set the season up like OHIO and see what happens. The GENETICS are there, trust me on that one but a month of guns blasting away makes me nervous to go out in the woods, how do think the deer feel!


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## Meleagris1 (Jan 8, 2003)

Steve, 

Why do you keep talking about statewide AR's? The pilot areas are in eastern NY, and the proposed new areas are in eastern NY. I wish we had what you have in central and western NY. Hunting for mature bucks is too easy out there. :wink: 

BTW, the lottery system is used in many states for Elk and Deer for the specific purpose of moderating hunting pressure and allowing animals to reach maturity. 

Many states, including some of the most respected state DNR's in the country, share a different view on management than NY's DEC. Ignoring the lack of recruitment in upper age classes in the buck herd in NY is convenient for the DEC, for a number of reasons, non of which have anything to do with deer management, but have everything to do with hunter management (eg catering to those who simply want "their buck"). 



> I will never let my desire to take a mature buck infringe on their hunting by supporting restrictions that have " critical biological need or compelling management advantage " - according to the DEC. I will not be that selfish.


Well, then you must not support about 95% of the DEC's regs, because most have nothing to do wth deer management, and everything to do with hunter management. I always get a kick of the "selfish" argument. Talk about calling the kettle black. As if you are arguing against AR's for some reason other than the simple fact you want to continue shooting whatever you want.


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## Tax Lawyer (Feb 5, 2003)

Could somebody check the obituaries in the Buffalo news? DoctariAFC must be dead for there to be silence on this issue from him. :wink:


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## SteveB (Dec 18, 2003)

> Why do you keep talking about statewide AR's? The pilot areas are in eastern NY, and the proposed new areas are in eastern NY.


Because most of the advocates push for it statewide based on the areas they hunt. If a biological reason can be proven for a change in management for specific areas, I am more then willing to listen. It's when the call for blanket changes comes and the reason is "try and see what happens", I will speak up.



> As if you are arguing against AR's for some reason other than the simple fact you want to continue shooting whatever you want.


I want the choice for the hunter to shoot what they want unless there is a biological need or management advantage (other then bigger racks for some). And where it is needed, points based AR has been shown to be one of the least effective methods. If a 3pt/side restriction was in place in central/western NY, the bulk of the legal bucks taken would be ones that I already let pass. There very well be a biological or sound management reason to restrict the buck kill in parts of the state, but points based AR will not be the answer. The pilot areas are showing them to be having a minimal impact - depending on how full your glass is.

Steve


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## Meleagris1 (Jan 8, 2003)

SteveB said:


> I want the choice for the hunter to shoot what they want unless there is a biological need or management advantage (other then bigger racks for some). And where it is needed, points based AR has been shown to be one of the least effective methods. If a 3pt/side restriction was in place in central/western NY, the bulk of the legal bucks taken would be ones that I already let pass. There very well be a biological or sound management reason to restrict the buck kill in parts of the state, but points based AR will not be the answer. The pilot areas are showing them to be having a minimal impact - depending on how full your glass is.
> 
> Steve


I don't see AR's happening in central and western NY, but , as with most significant management decisions made by the DEC, it will ultimately depend on hunter satisfaction with their resource. 

I agree 100% about AR's not being the best system. Like I said, a lottery would be better and would work for the entire state. Very simple, if your area isn't producing bucks in upper age classes, cut buck tags. If your area is, then increase tags and maximize the take. 

I personally was surprised the AR's have done as well as they have considering its only 3 points per side. The only goal of AR's is to allow 1.5 old bucks make it to 2.5. They have done this, as 2.5 and older bucks now make up a higher % of the deer take. The total numbers of 2.5 and older bucks is about the same however, mainly the result of deer numbers being down, as they are in all areas in the Hudson Valley from 2003-2007, not just the pilot areas.


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## SteveB (Dec 18, 2003)

Mel - we probably agree on more things then not - wish would show over a cup of coffee.

Steve


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## Meleagris1 (Jan 8, 2003)

SteveB said:


> Mel - we probably agree on more things then not - wish would show over a cup of coffee.
> 
> Steve



I'm sure we do. If I ever get back to Owasco to do some pike fishing, I will let you know. :darkbeer:


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## josh s. (Feb 9, 2008)

hey steve ..... i will be at gregs on friday afternoon.....you gonna be around. We are taking a pizza up there to him for helping us out through the season.....thought maybe we could chat a bit. 

As far as this thread goes.......my stand is that I will do what I want to do as it seems to work out nicely. Once there is a 3 point ruls I think our yearlings will not stand a chance......needs to be something else in place other than 3 pts. a side if your talking age structure. I see lots of 8 pointers that are only 1 1/2. Earlier in this thread someone said it was easy out here in central NY to kill a mature deer........think again.


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## Meleagris1 (Jan 8, 2003)

josh s. said:


> Earlier in this thread someone said it was easy out here in central NY to kill a mature deer........think again.


That comment was tongue in cheek. Its never "easy". However, compared to killing one in eastern NY, it is MUCH "easier". Just look at the record books and the latest issue of NYODN to confirm this for yourself. I hunt both places, and there is no comparison.

As far as 3 points, that's correct. Lots of 1.5 old 8 points, 3 points was simply a compromise. Like I said earlier, a buck tag lottery would be a better system.


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## josh s. (Feb 9, 2008)

gotcha, can't comment on out there because I have never hunted there. I will say that is easy to kill a 1 1/2 tho. My first bowhunting I had an opp. at a small 8 pt. 1 1/2 YO and I dropped my arrow off the rest right in front of him. He smelled my arrow,walked away and stood broadside at 15 yards for what seemed like an eternity. I had never taken a buck before or bowhunted and that was one of the best moments in the feild I had ever had. I never took him but what I learned was that by watching and not just shooting, the hunting got better. A nicer 2 1/2 YO walked out 10 min after. Anyhow.....my cousin is a new officer for the DEC and he said they are pushing towards something in near to distant future. He said right now they are worried about there ''own'' funding. I am assuming he is talking about his paycheck.....being with the economy and all I wonder where this topic falls in their stack of things to discuss?


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## Horses&Hunting (Oct 10, 2007)

If they sent me something I wouldn't know which way to go. I've seen first hand plenty of spike bucks killed and for the most part the only reason they were shot was because they had antlers. I think to a point there should be some type of restriction. In my area you don't see many deer at all. If you do see one its a small doe or a young spike. I almost feel as if there was a rule against shooting the young then maybe there will be more deer in our area.


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## SteveB (Dec 18, 2003)

Josh - might beable to make it.

Remember Greg likes double anchovies and lots and lots or garlic - but you didn't hear it from me.

Steve


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## SteveB (Dec 18, 2003)

> I think to a point there should be some type of restriction. In my area you don't see many deer at all.


If there are few deer, a points based AR is going to be about the least effective management tool. What you need, IF the habitat would support it, are more deer.

If the herd was managed for proper numbers to habitat, in your case you may very well see a lot more older deer.

Until management programs can be successful at something faifly simple like balancing the numbers on more local levels, why would we ever want them to try something like balancing age structure - something far more difficult. Can't get easy right, imagine what could happen with hard!

Steve


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## josh s. (Feb 9, 2008)

SteveB said:


> Josh - might beable to make it.
> 
> Remember Greg likes double anchovies and lots and lots or garlic - but you didn't hear it from me.
> 
> Steve



EEEwwwwwwWWWWW!!!!!!! I hope your joking right? :mg:I think I'll stick to pepp. and mush........thats pretty standard on this side of the lake......:wink:


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## Meleagris1 (Jan 8, 2003)

SteveB said:


> Until management programs can be successful at something faifly simple like balancing the numbers on more local levels, why would we ever want them to try something like balancing age structure - something far more difficult. Can't get easy right, imagine what could happen with hard!


This is a position that Rich likes to take, but it just isn't the case. In fact with a buck lottery both population and age would be managed in exactly the same manner. Population too high or low? Increase or reduce DMP's. Acceptable or too few bucks making it to upper age classes? Increase or decrease the number of buck tags.

Its incredibly easy to manage for age structure, because there is only thing negatively influencing it . . . . hunting pressure. Compare this with total population? How many variables do you have to consider now, in addition to hunting pressure . . . . habitat, winter kill, disease etc. 

Its even easier with AR's, although the trade off is that AR's are less effective than decreasing tag numbers. With AR's there is far less monitoring than is needed with population management. The DEC simply creates a new regulation and sees what happens. It requires very little of the DEC, other than hunter satisfaction surveys. Heck they've even subcontract the analysis with Cornell, so the DEC hardly has to lift a finger on this.


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