# Hoyt Gamemaster stack at longer draw



## Viper1 (Aug 21, 2003)

greg -

I've only hread a report of one GM stacking, and that bow seemed to have more problems than just stacking. The few I've shot, have not had any stack at all at my 29" draw.

Can't speak for the Dreamcatcher, but some of the Martins are know to stack past 28/29". As always the best option is to try before you buy if possible.

I assume yor coming from a compound bow? If so, and your current bow is #63, you're only holding about #20. Any #45 bow will feel like it's stacking, as it more than 2x what you're used to holding. Seriously suggest you get something cheap in the #30/#35 range to start with.

Viper1 out.


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## Arrowsmit (Oct 5, 2002)

IMO Hoyt did us a disservice of sorts by not designing the Gamemaster to accept ILF limbs. I'd imagine their marketing team thought it best tho...  

VicW.


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## Viper1 (Aug 21, 2003)

Vic -

You said a mouthful! It'd be sort of a hunting Aerotec? Ya think it'd be cheaper to produce it that way. It's not hard to convert ILF limbs to fit, but seems strange to have to.

I've spoken to Hoyt a couple of times in the last few months, a few of the things they've said aren't making sense either - and I'm a Hoyt fan.  

Viper1 out.


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## gregvisser (Jul 27, 2004)

Viper1 said:


> greg -
> 
> I assume yor coming from a compound bow? If so, and your current bow is #63, you're only holding about #20. Any #45 bow will feel like it's stacking, as it more than 2x what you're used to holding. Seriously suggest you get something cheap in the #30/#35 range to start with.
> 
> Viper1 out.


Thanks for the good advice. I often shoot our club recurves which are 35# and am quite comfortable holding them and can do 70 shots in a session without hurting much (fingers take a bit of strain though since I don't shoot with a tab). That's why I thought a 45# would be a good bow to 'grow into'.

I was just concerned that a 45# GM might pull in more like 50# at my draw length - which will indeed be a worry. But sounds ok from your comments.

Cheers,

Greg


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## Viper1 (Aug 21, 2003)

greg -

OK, ya didn't mention that! If you're accurate for 70 shot's with a #35, then a good #45 should be fine, just take it easy in the begining.

Get a glove otr tab, your fingers will thank you!

Hoyt's been getting a little wierd over the last year or so. If you can't try before you buy, see if you can work out an understanding with the proshop, that if it's not what you ordered, as appears "defective", there's a return policy in place.

Viper1 out.


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## PineLander (Oct 28, 2003)

A 45# Hoyt Gamemaster will be approx. 48# @ YOUR 29" draw. All Gamemaster limbs are marked for a 28" draw. It was pointed out to me and I concur... the shelf is not near as long (from front to back) as other recurves. In fact, my inderstanding is the poundage on the GM is not measured from the front of the shelf, but rather about 3/4" out in front of it. Seems to be an AMO thing, I think the end measurement for draw is 1.75" forward of grip valley. With the Gamemaster's short shelf, that puts the "end of draw" ~3/4" out in front of the shelf.

Yes, maybe the one I tested had a set of "lemon" limbs... but I can say with absolute confidence that the Gamemaster has a very "non-shocky" riser. At 2 lb. 4 oz. total weight, it is every bit as stable-feeling as it's counterparts weighing-in anywhere from 3-4 lbs.


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## sweet old bill (Apr 21, 2003)

if you want a fine traditional bow check out checkmate bow at :

http:// recurves.com.

I like you was shooting in the mid 60's lbs at 29 inch with my compound and got a 45 lb recurve, shoots great and I can handle the weight. I am shooting the frebird model that is a dream to shoot from a treestand, at 56 inch long, and I draw 29 1/2 inch with no stacking of the bow...check it out....


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## Hasbro (Jul 5, 2003)

*Gamemaster*

Greg,

I shoot a Hoyt UltraElite 29" dl & 61lbs...Also a ChekMate Take down HunterII 54lbs @ 28 & several longbows...Last weekend I bought a Gamemaster 45# @ 28.

Even though my compound dl is 29" my recurve & longbow dl runs about 28". Difference in form I guess?! 

Anyway, I shot the Gamemaster in a 3D shoot today & thought the bow shot very well. imo the limbs don't stack...most of my trad bows are in the 50-55# range so i'm not sure if the pound difference hides any stacking. To me it's a nice shooting bow.

I had to stuff some of those doinker split limb-limb silencers in the riser cutouts to get rid of the noise.. they don't fit perfectly but the noise level is down! I do plan on hunting with it this year.

so :thumbs_up for the 45# Gamemaster

Hasbro

p.s.- Bill Is right as well, the ChekMate is a great bow


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## CLASSICHUNTER (May 20, 2005)

*Great Bow*

WELL guys I have two game masters one50 and a 45 lb er try putting a thin layer of rubber between the limbs and the riser it works to quiet them down also arrow weight on this bow really affects the noise level. My 50 lb with a carbon light speed at 29 inch draw shoots an amazing 247 fps and this is with six arrows shot through the crony. I did notice the 5 lb difference feels more like 10 when I down scale to the 45 . With a 450 t0 500 grain arrow they are a quiet bow with silencers added, enjoy the bow they are a nice product with little or no hand shock


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## dwalk (Dec 2, 2004)

the only way to really find out is to use a bow scale. measure it at 28" and 29" ...


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## gregvisser (Jul 27, 2004)

Thanks for some excellent advice on the Gamemaster guys. Sounds like a shooter. The only problem is that my mind has now also been polluted with the idea of Chekmate bows. The Hunter I looks awesome at a very reasonable price for a handmade bow. 

Will there be a significant performance difference between a Gamemaster and a Hunter I at similar poundage, or is it just the shoot feel and draw characteristics that will be different. Anyhow, I'm truly tempted to rather get the Chekmate now!

Greg


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## PineLander (Oct 28, 2003)

Well Greg, since others have interjected another bow in the mix...

And since you seem to not have a disliking for metal-risered recurves, here is one that measures-up quite nicely with the Gamemaster and also the frequently-mentioned "Warfed" recurves. It's a Quinn Stallion and I've done some considereable testing of this bow vs. the GM and the Warf. It shines brightly in the field of limb performance and metal-riser mania. Yes, the Chek-Mates are very fine recurves (I've owned one), but in the realm of "handshockiness" or lack thereof... there is no comparison of wood vs. metal. Well, maybe today's BW and the old Bear Tamerlanes and Hoyt PM target bows might come close. 

Quinn's Archery

Here's an interesting comparison photo....
Hoyt Gamemaster, Quinn Stallion, and Warfed recurve.


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## gregvisser (Jul 27, 2004)

PineLander said:


> Yes, the Chek-Mates are very fine recurves (I've owned one), but in the realm of "handshockiness" or lack thereof... there is no comparison of wood vs. metal. Well, maybe today's BW and the old Bear Tamerlanes and Hoyt PM target bows might come close.


You mention that there is no comparison between wood and metal for handshock - I'm green here (compound shooter), but does that mean that metal has LESS handshock than wood? 

Stallion looks like excellent value for money, but I prefer the tech riser of the Hoyt in this case....

Greg


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## PineLander (Oct 28, 2003)

Yes, less handshock than wood in most cases.


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## gregvisser (Jul 27, 2004)

I am taking this thread wayyyyy off topic now, but got an email off to Chad at Chek-mate yesterday. Must say - very professional to deal with - he turned around my email in 12 hours and put together very comprehensive detailed answers to my questions. 

The only problem is that the Chek-mates have a 4-6 month wait on them. That's a longer wait than a BW! Must be really popular bows! (or they're making them veeeery slowly *heh* *heh*).

Cheers,

Greg


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## 30&IN (Jul 12, 2005)

Bear in mind that the hoyt riser, and grip, like most metal handed bows are designed for high wrist shooters, and are not what I consider bow hunter friendly. Had a chance to own a couple of GM when they first came out. I did kill a few deer with them, but in my opinion they are much better suited to the target butts, than to ground blinds, kneeling shots, and the weird positions a bow hunter places his bow in. 

As for handshock. A very mis-understood thing indeed. The reason a metal risered bow seems to have less handshock is because it normally has more mass weight to absorb the shock. However, it should be pointed out that I own 50's style recurves of all wood that have way less shock than hoyt game masters, and those compound risered bows with recurve limbs. Design is the key factor. 

For what you are looking for, an all wood bow will do you fine. Do not be decieved into the hype that these metal risered bows with elevated rests will be more accurate. That is total bunk. Perfect arrow flight, and perfect tune are capable with shoot off the shelf rests.


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## gregvisser (Jul 27, 2004)

The hand position you mention is very interesting. I'm a low wrist shooter on my compound and don't intend to change that part of my style to switch to recurve. A well designed wood bow will probably do the job as well as a metal riser - it looks like availability might just be an issue on the well made wooden bows.

Many traditionalists would ask me to wash my mouth out, but I'm a little bit skittish shooting off the shelf. I'd prefer the bow to be able to take a little flipper or similar rest. Just makes it easier to tune and easier to get precise in my opinion.

Greg


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## 30&IN (Jul 12, 2005)

Greg, despite alot of the info being bantered about on certain traditional archery forums, metal risered bows, with elevated rests do NOT make a bow easier to tune, or shoot accurately. I say this not from opinion, but rather from experience. 

A proper size arrow, shot off a shelf will fly with dart like accuracy. Elevated rests give you no advantage whatsoever, over shooting off a shelf. In fact, I'll go so far as to say that an arrow shot off the knuckle of a longbow shooter, will fly as accurate, and tune as easy as any arrow shot off an elevated rest, or rest. My best buck ever was taken with a such a bow, and trust me, only my best bows go into the deer woods. 

If the wood bow is what you are leaning to, then by all means don't let the perceived accuracy, and tunablity of a metal bow fool you. Any well made bow, be it check-mate, dream catcher, and so forth will give you what you want in tunability, and accuracy. Now, if you are into the metal risers, and the elevated rests, then go for it, because they can be tuned also.


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## Arrowsmit (Oct 5, 2002)

Yeah, right 30&IN. Is that why we never see wooden risers in the Olympics!!??

I shoot metal risers w/a few gadgets on em sometimes (& have found that they make ok hunting bows too), but also found that I much prefer the simplicity & warmth of shooting off the shelf of a wooden riser most times. I certainly understand & share your affection for the latter, but I believe you overstepped fact when you said:



> ...metal risered bows, with elevated rests do NOT make a bow easier to tune, or shoot accurately. I say this not from opinion, but rather from experience.


I've observed quite the opposite, so your experience must differ greatly from mine...not to mention that of the great Olympian archers.


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## Viper1 (Aug 21, 2003)

Vic / Chad (if you're around) -

Ever get the idea that there are just some posts not worth responding too?

Or maybe I'm just getting old(er).

Viper1 out.


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## LBR (Jan 1, 2004)

Lol--yeah, we know better.....sometimes you just can't resist the temptation!  

Chad


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## Arrowsmit (Oct 5, 2002)

Hehehe, I think Chads done went 'n run 'im off...


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## 30&IN (Jul 12, 2005)

You know, some of you boys would do better to actually respond to the questions being asked, instead of pushing your agendas. The man asked about a small game bow, and I gave him an answer based upon what my experience has been with such bows. Simply put, a well made longbow, or recurve with a decent crowned shelf , and light mass weight, with a non compound grip , will provide him all the stability, and accuracy he needs for his objective.

I really can't help it if some of you are sold on this superior metal riser thing. Not to say that they not accurate, for as I said, I killed a few deer with them, but I will not say that they are more accurate because it is simply untrue. As for olympic archery. Olympic archery has MUCH more in common with compound archery, than with traditional archery, based on the use of long stabilizers, 300gr arrows, hi-tec rests, on so forth, on bows that are shot vertical with pin sights, and or other aiming forms. 

In my "off the record" opinion, the rise of these metal risered, hybrid compound/recurve bows are just filling a market for guys who don't have the desire/patience/ability to shoot a traditional bow accurately, and who are looking for a bow "nirvana" that does not exist. 

Fire away ladies


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## Floxter (Sep 13, 2002)

30&in, in your efforts to make a point, you continously overstate yours. Elevated rests are not just a gimmic used by Olympic shooters. Every FITA barebow shooter with any credentials will have an elevated rest on his/her bow and it will have a metal riser as well. An elevated rest simply provides for a cleaner release and is more forgiving of a bad one. While shooting off the shelf offers a simplicity that many prefer, in terms of accuracy it can't compare to an elevated rest, no matter how closely the arrow is tuned to the bow or vice versa. The elevated rest makes up for human not mechanical error. As to the metal riser, while it doesn't have the warmth and beauty in most instances of a laminated wood riser, it does have superior stiffness and mass; both qualities that tend to improve accuracy. In the hands of the same shooter, a metal riser bow with elevated rest, will always outperform a wood bow off the shelf. JMHO


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## PineLander (Oct 28, 2003)

30&IN - I never said metal-risered bows shoot more accurately, I said they have less handshock. In many cases, it's the archer... not the bow. But I believe Floxter has stated the truth for many of us that know the difference betweeen the two. I hunted with wood-risered recurves for many years, shooting off-the-shelf using cedar arrows and I don't disagree with you that they can be tuned and shot very accurately that way. But I'm certainly not speaking about metal bows from some kind of "nirvana" based agenda, rather from experience.

Metal-risered shooters don't have the desire/patience/ability to shoot a traditional bow accurately? Actually, it doesn't matter if the dang thing is made out of plastic... shooting any kind of bow requires all of those traits. There are no short-cuts in this sport, and honestly I think that type of attitude sounds very condenscending. Don't let the "traditional" mindset cloud your views too much there... it's not a bad thing to have an open mind in one's perspective regarding classical archery. Like Viper, I've begun to hate that other word.

To the contrary, the photo of the 3 bows I posted previously show that they have very similar grips to most of the wooden recurves I've shot in the past. They are not high-wrist grips suited only for the paper-punching crowd. They have medium grips... not much different than the Bighorn I hunted with for 10 years and all the others I've had as well. Such as Martin Dreamcatcher and Hatfield, BW, Chek-Mate, Fedora, Sley, Zipper, Dale Stahl, Marriah Thermal, Pearson Predator, Bear Hunter, and even my "very traditional" Bear Dogleg for that matter.

Greg - if you are interested in getting a Chek-Mate quickly without the wait, you may want to check out -

www.archerybymail.com

That's where I purchased my Chek-Mate and they are great to deal with, as is Chad. I see they currently have Chek-Mate Hunter II's in stock ranging from 42# to 60#. But if you are set on a certain type of wood in the riser/limbs and a specific poundage/draw length, you couldn't go wrong sending an order into Chad. Marc Moriez builds a very fine shooting bow with wonderful fit and finish. Or you could order a Quinn and see it arrive in 3 weeks, or investigate what all the hullabalu is about those Warfed recurves, or browse the many classifieds... there are many different recurves on the used market today that are a fraction of their original new cost. Used Gamemasters seem to be going for around $300-$350 these days.

It's all a preference thing... I like my Quinn Stallion and Easton Redlines, Vic likes his BW's and Adcock's, Chad likes his Crusader longbow, and Viper... well, he's got so many bows hard to say what he's shooting from day to day.

To be more specific in answering your original question - the Gamemaster is a 62" bow... should not have any problems with stacking at 29", nor with finger pinch. The one I tested did show a considerable draw force increase between 27"-30" compared to a few other bows' limbs, but it wasn't THAT much. If you have a bow where it's limbs increase no more than 2.0-2.5 lbs/inch from 27"-30".... you have found a very smooth-drawing bow. Actually, the majority of the best ones are in the 2.5-3.0 lbs/inch range.


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## gregvisser (Jul 27, 2004)

Thanks Pinelander for a very interesting, complete reply. Good impartial advice is very much appreciated!

Cheers,

Greg


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## >--gt--> (Jul 1, 2002)

> I guestimate that I'll be pulling a 29-29.5" draw on the Gamemaster - can I expect significant stacking at the longer draw length and hence not as smooth a draw cycle?


I designed a lower-stack limb specificially for the Gamemaster. It is NOT a standard Hoyt target limb.

You won't encounter stack at the draw length range you mentioned. I can shoot a Gamemaster very comfortably at my 30.5 inch draw.

The reason I chose not to put the Hoyt dovetail system on the Gamemaster was simple- NOISE. It's difficult to get the target limb dovetail system to be as quiet as the direct connect system on the Gamemaster. Top traditional bowhunters such as Fred Eichler helped me with this choice and when you consider the huge number of happy Gamemaster shooters out there, I think it was the right choice.

As for the grip, it's a simple matter to put a couple of inexpensive Hoyt Accugrip side plates on the Gamemaster and shoot it right off the riser- It's designed for that, and I do this on mine.


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## dwalk (Dec 2, 2004)

i reckon i've had good luck.

i have a gamemaster i use a NAP centerest on and the arrows fly "like a dart".

i have a Howatt Hunter i shoot off the shelf/rug rest and the arrows fly "like a dart".

i have a Wes Wallace i shoot off the shelf/rug rest and the arrows fly "like a dart".

i have a Bob Lee i shoot off the shelf/rug rest and the arrows "fly like a dart".

i have a yamaha olympic recurve i shoot a flipper rest with and the arrows "fly like a dart". 

i could go on.

my point?

with application and work, you can make either work however you wish.


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## 30&IN (Jul 12, 2005)

Floxter said:


> 30&in, in your efforts to make a point, you continously overstate yours. Elevated rests are not just a gimmic used by Olympic shooters. Every FITA barebow shooter with any credentials will have an elevated rest on his/her bow and it will have a metal riser as well. An elevated rest simply provides for a cleaner release and is more forgiving of a bad one. While shooting off the shelf offers a simplicity that many prefer, in terms of accuracy it can't compare to an elevated rest, no matter how closely the arrow is tuned to the bow or vice versa. The elevated rest makes up for human not mechanical error. As to the metal riser, while it doesn't have the warmth and beauty in most instances of a laminated wood riser, it does have superior stiffness and mass; both qualities that tend to improve accuracy. In the hands of the same shooter, a metal riser bow with elevated rest, will always outperform a wood bow off the shelf. JMHO


Flox, nowhere did I say that elevated rests were "gimmicks". What I said was, elevated rests give the archer no advantage over accuracy. If one is willing to approach this with an open mind, rather than supposition, it is easily understood. 

Elevated rests serve several very good purposes. On recurve bows they lift the arrows resting point higher on the sight window, which helps it coincide much better with the use of sight pins. Also the use of the newer ADJUSTABLE rests, make tuning quicker , NOT TO BE MISUNDERSTOOD WITH MORE ACCURATE. Simply put, it's just easier to adjust a rest into proper position, with a rest that can be adjusted with the turn of threads, where a strike plate on shoot off the shelf bow may have to be built out, or in with various materials, making tuning a slower process, not a less accurate one. 

HOWEVER, the standard elevated rests used on recurve bows STILL have the same properties as a shoot off the shelf bow, and that is they BOTH still have arrow CONTACT the on bottom, and side of the rests. A flipper rest is still in contact with the arrow through out the shot, the same way a rug rest is in contact with the arrow. This is why the compound world has now introduced "drop away" rests. Such rests provide almost flawless arrow flight due to fact that the arrow never touches a rest, HOWEVER, many compound shooters are STILL able to achieve just as accurate results using the standard fixed prong type rests. I would also add that the results achieved with totally captive, full contact rests like "whisker biscuits" are amazing.

Also the use of elevated prong type, or plunger type rests serve themselves well in the areana of field archery, where light weight arrows, with very small fletchings need to be shot over long distances. The way this achieved is by shooting the lightest weight arrow, as fast as possible. By using plastic vanes the mass weight of an arrow is reduced, since plastic weighs less than natural feather. However plastic is not forgiving like feathers, so therefore it must be oriented so there is no fletching contact with the rest, which results in less drag, which results in more speed, which results in longer, flatter shots.

Also, while the arrow still rests on the bottom, and side of the elevated rest, the surface area contact is less than the traditional rug rest, therefore it will have less drag, thus more speed. However, it should be pointed out, that less surface contact does NOT equate to more accuracy. In fact, prong type rests, or plunger type rests are more sensitive to bow torque, or poor form, because the rest surface itself is either hard metal, or plastic, or a combination of both, which will magnify shooting errors, whereas a rug rest tends to be more forgiving of slight flaws in form. 

Also, I should add that many of these elevated rest bows are set up with near vertical holding of the bow. However when these bows are canted heavily, as in hunting positions, they tend to be very critical of any shooting flaw, and in my opinion, that is where the elevated rest becomes inferior. I say this not based on opinion, but actually on experience, in that I have hunted with metal riser bows, with elevated rests, and have taken deer with them. Now with that said, I fully agree that the elevated rest is the best rest to use if field archery is your game, or if you intend to use sights, because such a rest is designed for such activity, however NOT because it is more accurate, but only because it meshes well with that type of shooting discipline.

One of the greatest misconceptions bantered about today is ""well olympic archers use it, so it must be the most accurate"". What should be said, is that olympic archers use it, because it is the best thing for olympic archery. I would also like to address the issue wrt mas weight in risers. Mass weight, is mass weight. Having owned, and shot metal risered bows, I can tell you that there are several take-down wood risered bows that weigh as much, if not more than some of metal risered bows on the market. BW, Bob Lee, Stahl, Car-bow, and so forth come to mind. I will say that one of the greastest advantages of a metal riser bow, is that the can be produced consistently. In other words, 3 metal risers of the same maker will be pretty much identical due to the fact that they are cast in forms, rather than shaped from wooden blocks, and that is a big plus for guys who like owning more than one of the same bow.

However, a wood risered bow, that is cut to center, and shot off the shelf, will tune as accurate, and shoot as consistent as ANY metal risered bow with an elevated rest. In fact, the evidence of the shooting machine proves this as nothing else will. Any bow, placed in a shooting machine will shoot constant groups all day long, be it a high end recurve, or production longbow. 

In ending I will say this again. I feel that the metal risered bow rage today is simply the result of alot of guys never really taking the time to investigate the nuts, and bolts of archery. Setting aside my love of bow hunting, I am truely intriqued by bows, and arrows. Selfbows, longbows, recurves, sinew backed bows, composite bows, flatbows, hybrid bows, metal risered bows, and even compound bows. I have either built or owned all of them, and taken deer with all of them. I don't claim to be an expert, but rather just a guy who loves archery, and bowhunting, and who has had years of fun doing it, and living it, and with that said, I just hate to see guys mislead into thinking that their bows will "never be as accurate" has the guy with the "metal bow", or the guy with this bow, or that bow. 

The same way I hate to see guys told you can't accurately shoot 3 under, or split finger, or gap, or swing draw, or snap style, and so forth. If I could only give one piece of general advice to my fellow archers, and bow hunters, it would be this........Anytime you see, or read about some guy telling you, you have to shoot his way, or his type of bow to be as good as you can be, RUN........RUN AS FAST AS YOU CAN, because I can tell you that if you hang with a guy like that, he'll just bring you down to his level. 

Best of Hope, and stay focused on what you are doing, not on what others are doing. You ain't everyone, you are someone!



.


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## AKRuss (Jan 10, 2003)

Greg, To get back to your original questions: a Hoyt GameMaster is a great bow for the money and comes with accessories to shoot it off the shelf or from an elevated arrow rest. Try both and then you too can argue about it, LOL. If you're contemplating using vanes (less expensive and not prone to getting wet and matting down), you probably want to use an arrow rest, otherwise it's simply a personal preference. I'd be surprised you had any stacking problems with the GameMaster (I only draw 28") as it feels pretty smooth at anchor. Most good recurves pull an extra 2 to 3# per inch beyond 28" so you may want to drop to 40# @ 28" if you're looking for 45# at 29.5". Small game will not know that you're shooting a lighter bow. 

There are tons of great bows out there you may want to consider, in addition to the GameMaster. Although I've never shot a Checkmate, I'm sure it's a good bow. The Martin recurves are good shooters too. It's always a good idea to look around and try shooting different bows before letting go of your cash. Different bows often have a unique fit and feel to them and often a different feel during the shot. My personal favorites are the Bear T/D and Black Widow MA recurves. However, my GameMaster is a very stable bow, fun to shoot and I'm not sure my other high dollar bows can outshoot it, at least with me at the string. For the money, it's one heck of a bow - it would be a great bow at twice the price with a few amenities added. The riser has a very stiff and solid feel and the narrow grip feels good to my hands though I may change to side plates. The shot is very crisp too. The bow is cut WAY past centershot which enables one to easily tune arrows. Hoyt had their act together when they came out with the GameMater. So much for advertising. Try to shoot a bunch of bows before making up your mind, or, as I have, buy them all! :cocktail:


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## gregvisser (Jul 27, 2004)

Guys, this thread has given me so much more than I expected! Thanks to all for some very useful contributions.

Although I'd like to, living in New Zealand means I don't have much access to test drive most of the main stream recurves. One shop here has a Hoyt Gamemaster 40# in the shop, but they want US$600 for it - so I won't buy it at that price and feel guilty going to shoot a bow I know I won't buy. Another interesting thing is that I spoke to Hoyt this morning and they told me that the sideplates will NOT fit the Gamemaster. Perhaps you guys were not referring to the standard Hoyt plates? I can see that the grip will work well for low wrist shooting once you've taken the std grip off and shoot from the riser though.....

Off the shelf or not? Well, I definitely want to use an arrow rest. Being from New Zealand (LOTS of rain) feathers just don't work well at all. I know some guys that use them and they struggle at times.

So I will keep looking around - hopefully I can find a Chek-mate somewhere with bushings for a rest. Else, from the good feedback on the Gamemaster, I'll probably end up going for one in the next few weeks (second hand #45). 

Cheers,

Btw - It is awesome to have a helpful forum like this to get so much good info. Especially in my case where it is not possible to actually handle all the bows myself. I bought my compound on the basis of forum advice (never even saw one before I bought it) and have never looked back (shoot a Bowtech Liberty).

Greg


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## 30&IN (Jul 12, 2005)

Greg, using an elevated rest to combat wet weather is a very good use of it. The late Paul Schafer, who hunted in wet weather often, used an elevated rest, and aluminim arrows with vanes with much success. 

As for the price.....Wow, that is steep. I just sold a couple of 45#ers for less than $350. They were in mint condition. If I see any, I'll e-mail ya.


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## MarkH (Jan 9, 2004)

30&in
All of the rests that you mentioned being used on the compound bows have a bit of vertical give to them that the shelf lacks. Why send a new archer out with a bow that lacks any forgiveness? Why? What do you hope to gain? Do you make or market longbows?


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## 30&IN (Jul 12, 2005)

MarkH said:


> 30&in
> All of the rests that you mentioned being used on the compound bows have a bit of vertical give to them that the shelf lacks. Why send a new archer out with a bow that lacks any forgiveness? Why? What do you hope to gain? Do you make or market longbows?


Mark, a properly spined arrow does not need "vertical give" to shoot straight, and accurately. The arrow itself does the "giving" to correct itself. This is why we have numerous spine stiffnesses in arrow shafting, so the archer can determine which spine arrow, best fits his bow. Also, minute adjustments in knock point location can correct whatever issues arise after proper spine is determined. I would also add that a seal skin, or hair rest does give a weee bit of "forgiveness"

You ask ..."""Why send a new archer out with a bow that lacks any forgiveness? Why? What do you hope to gain?"""

well, I could ask you this question. Why send a new archer out without a bow with cams, let-off, peep sight, and release aid?. What could you hope to gain?

You see Mark, I for one do not think a traditional bow makes one handi-capped. I for on do not think shooting an arrow off the self of a recurve, or longbow creates an "unforgiving" situation.Far too many archers like Art Young, Ben Pearson, Stacey Groscup, Byron Ferguson, Howard Hill, John Schulz, and so on have proven otherwise. Not to mention the tens of thousands of men who take big game with properly tuned, shoot off the self bows. History stands on their side. I think such charges are good selling points for metal risered bows, with elevated rests, however I have also seen compound ads that ask "why shoot an antiquated recurve", when you can shoot *soandsos* compound bow. 

I used to build longbows, but not any more. Never sold them or "marketed" them. Just built them for personal consumption. Nowadays I shoot mostly 50's style recurves, but will shoot any good bow that comes along.


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## MarkH (Jan 9, 2004)

History stands on their side? History stands on the cavemans side too but I don't expect a new archer to have to handicap himself because of what a caveman did. The old " why not just shoot a compound" comeback. Perfect response from a trad zealot.


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## 30&IN (Jul 12, 2005)

MarkH said:


> History stands on their side? History stands on the cavemans side too but I don't expect a new archer to have to handicap himself because of what a caveman did. The old " why not just shoot a compound" comeback. Perfect response from a trad zealot.


Mark, I'd hardly equate the likes of Ben Pearson, Howard Hill, , Doug Easton, Glenn St Charles, Fread Bear, Gail Martin, Bob Lee, Damon Howatt, the Wilson Bros, and so forth as being "cavemen". 

Nor were any of them, or the people who purchased their products "handi-capped". You seem you forget Mark, that modern archery seasons were established, and some very accurate shooting was taking place before you were born. Now it my be proper to say that YOU are handi-capped with traditional tackle, but it's quite unfair to suggest that others are. I will agree, archery is not for everyone, and no bow, be it traditional, or modern will make up for inherent inability to be a good archer. 

In otherwords, if you are unable to master shooting a recurve or longbow, you probably won't be that good of a compound archer either. Some folks are lousy golfers, and the best clubs in the world won't change that. You see Mark, where you and I differ, is this......You think certain archery tackle handi caps you. I think certain archery tackle brings out the best in me. I do not think rug rests, elevated rests, or compound rests "handi cap" anyone. True, they all require slightly different set ups, but when set up properly, they ALL produce effective, and consistent results. 

If that opinion makes me a "trad zealot", then I stand guilty as charged.


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## MarkH (Jan 9, 2004)

Yes, you are a trad zealot. Instead of suggesting that the new archer set up his rig for forgiveness as inexpensively as he can, you went off on a tangent about how the likes of so and so did it back then. Offer help to the new archer instead of worrying about wether or not your trad ideals are being violated. And yes, I was around during the 60s and early 70s when archery was just archery.


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## 30&IN (Jul 12, 2005)

MarkH said:


> Yes, you are a trad zealot. Instead of suggesting that the new archer set up his rig for forgiveness as inexpensively as he can, you went off on a tangent about how the likes of so and so did it back then. Offer help to the new archer instead of worrying about wether or not your trad ideals are being violated. And yes, I was around during the 60s and early 70s when archery was just archery.


No, what you really mean, is set up the new archer based on your inability to be consistent with a traditional bow. In other words, because YOU feel handi capped without metal risers, and elevated rests, you simply ASSUME that everyone else is. Well, I would like to placate that idea, but it is untrue. Not only have I pointed to the great archers of the past to make my point, I also point to the great archers of the present to dispell this MYTH of yours that shoot off the shelf recurves, and longbows are not "forgiving". 

I truely believe that you do not even understand what "forgiving" is, as it pertains to archery. If I am incorrect, would you please be soo kind as to describe "forgiveness" , as you use it???

Would you also explain why many archers who shoot bows off the shelf are capable of consistent groups at the target butts, and year in, and year out success with big game???. I don't consider myself a target shooter, but I consistently shoot 2 "to 3" groups at 20 yards with heavy wood, and aluminum arrows off hunting bows rug rests, and bow quivers. At 30 yards the groups are still with-in 5", and I tell you there are guys who are much better than I. Could you explain how a guy like Mr Ferguson can shoot a non center shot longbow soo well, and CONSISTENT off the shelf???

How about Ron laClair's shooting at aerial targets of short longbows, with rug rests????. How do you explain all the deer taken, and well placed arrows Mark. Could it be that maybe, JUST maybe, some guys actually pocess the ability to shoot these boews well without feeling "handi capped"????


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## Lumis17 (Jun 9, 2003)

30&IN,

You forgot to tell the newbies that they need to chant "I think I can, I think I can, I think I can..." while they're shooting.


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## 30&IN (Jul 12, 2005)

Lumis, I'll leave that to the guys who "think" shooting a flipper rest, is going to evolve them into "super-archer"......*they think it can, they think it can.*  ...


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## Lumis17 (Jun 9, 2003)

touche


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## MarkH (Jan 9, 2004)

Keep going off on your little tirade 30&in. Very mature.

I still say start the new archer out with tackle that's easy to shoot. IE.... has some forgiveness to it. Perhaps handicap was a bad word but I never thought you would be so childish as to go off like an idiot about it.


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## 30&IN (Jul 12, 2005)

MarkH said:


> Keep going off on your little tirade 30&in. Very mature.
> 
> I still say start the new archer out with tackle that's easy to shoot. IE.... has some forgiveness to it. Perhaps handicap was a bad word but I never thought you would be so childish as to go off like an idiot about it.


Mark, the only "tirade" here is yours. Your name calling is indictitive of it. I really think you need to re-read the forum rules.


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## Bob Gordon (Oct 20, 2003)

This thread sure has a lot in it that needs to be taken with a grain of salt. It's to bad that so many newbee's might be reading some of this and getting some rather poor advice. 2" and 3" groups at 20 yds with woodies? That would be better than the present national champions shooting recurve, no sights, also on a par with world class Olympic archers and probably better than most. And your not a target archer? Gees...NOBODY who is a world class or national champion, recurve, no sights would EVER think of shooting off a shelf unless required by the rules of the competition, there is just NO way a shelf will be as good as a rest or the best competive archers would be doing it, ever wonder why they don't?? No advantage to a aluminum riser? Yea right, wood risers haven't been used in the Olympic's in over thirty years, why is that? If your going to give out information like your doing how about being a little more realistic for those who are trying to learn from posts like this...


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## Abel (Jun 2, 2004)

:thumbs_up  

It doesn't matter what anyone else says: 30&IN already knows everything there is to know about archery. In fact, he invented it. Before 30&IN came along to show us the light, archery was simply called "arrow lobbing" or "wasting time". Luckily, back in 15,364 B.C., old 30&IN came along and made some sense of it all. Lucky for us, huh? 

 :smile:  :smile:  :smile:


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## PineLander (Oct 28, 2003)

It's OK guys... have No Fear! UnderArcher (30&IN) is Here! 

You see, 30&IN.... most people are intelligent enough to know when the teaching ends and the preaching begins.

You see 30&IN - it's not all that difficult to make logical statements without going off on a "trad revival circuit" dismissing other styles of traditional archery setups using an extreme approach that hints of (more like screams of) "thou art the mighty archer". Most folks here have no difficulty discussing archery in a respectful manner without being condenscending in nature.

I disagree about the 50's style recurves having no more handshock than metal-risered bows. And shootng machines are great for accuracy, but guess what? Machines don't hunt or target shoot with them, we do. Sure, they can all be shot accurately... but anyone that knows both types are aware without any uncertainty, that lower mass-weight wooden bows exhibit more handshock than ones that have considerable mass weight or rigidity built-in to the riser. Unless of course, they are made of similar materials like Kiko's bows were. Now that was one rigid little bow.


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## longbowguy (Nov 14, 2004)

Back to your original question--the Hoyt limb design now about 50 years old and adopted or adapted by most other recurve makers is not likely to stack to 29 inches and beyond--that is its best feature. 45# is more than you need for small game, and less makes for a delightful bow that you can shoot all you wish. I'd consider 42 or less at your draw length. That is also more than enough with Hoyt limbs to cleanly take deer if you should ever wish to do so with it.

I surely approve of vanes and a rest for a damp climate--there is a considerable tradition of that.

And old target bows of this description appear all the time on Ebay at low prices. I'd hate to admit how many of them I couldn't resist buying. Thankfully I have resold some of them but my bow collection is still excessive. But I expect they will hold there value; they are wonderful artifacts of a golden age of archery.


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## 30&IN (Jul 12, 2005)

> This thread sure has a lot in it that needs to be taken with a grain of salt. It's to bad that so many newbee's might be reading some of this and getting some rather poor advice. 2" and 3" groups at 20 yds with woodies? That would be better than the present national champions shooting recurve, no sights, also on a par with world class Olympic archers and probably better than most. And your not a target archer? Gees...


Bob, one of my favorite forms of practice is to play what I call "chase the arrow". I will pick a spot, usually on a bank, and shoot the fist arrow. Then I will shoot two more arrows, at the nock end of the first, at distances from 10, to 30 yards. At 10 yards I usually get the arrows in a "bundle", meaning that I can easily wrap my hand around them. At 20 yards a 3" spacing between them is generally the rule. At 30 yards the groups open up quite abit , depending on my focus. Last night I was shooting down by the pool, while my wife was swimming. I was shooting a 50# wood, one piece recurve, with 65# spine cedar arrows, with 5" parabolic feathers. I was shooting at the blooming tips of my wifes hosta plants, which are the size of about 2". At 15 yards I was hitting the flowers, or the feathers were brushing them more times, than not. 

Bob, as I said, I do not consider myself a target archer, nor do I consider my ability to be anything more than average. I am a bowhunter. However, I do shoot at least 50 to 100 arrows a day, and have been doing so over the last 2 decades. I have never shot in competition, because it simply has never appealed to me, so I am not qualified to judge others abilities. I am only interested in training my self to be the best archer, and bowhunter I can be, and I like to point out that if a guy like myself, with average skills, can still be consistent, anyone with determination can.



> ...NOBODY who is a world class or national champion, recurve, no sights would EVER think of shooting off a shelf unless required by the rules of the competition, there is just NO way a shelf will be as good as a rest or the best competive archers would be doing it, ever wonder why they don't??


Bob, I have addressed that question above. Olympic archery is about shooting super light arrows, with synthetic fletchings, very long distances, A shelf rest is not practical for this. You are confusing the use of an elevated rest in that application with being superior in accuracy in all applications, and this simply is untrue. The same elevated rested, when used to shoot a heavy, thick hunting arrow with large feathers becomes no more efficent than a rug rest. You need to compare apples with apples Bob.



> No advantage to a aluminum riser? Yea right, wood risers haven't been used in the Olympic's in over thirty years, why is that? If your going to give out information like your doing how about being a little more realistic for those who are trying to learn from posts like this...


Again Bob, you are comparing apples, to oranges. Metal risered bows do serve a very valid purpose. In the world of Olympic archery where casting a light weight arrow , long distances accurately is the order of the day, a metal bow gives an advantage. The strenth of metal, allows risers to be cut past center, to facilitate the use of elevated rests that reduce drag on the arrow. {Not to be confused with accuracy} Also the use of metal risers allows more consistent mass weights to be achieved in risers, which helps in the stabilization of the bow that must shoot a very light arrow. This is why Olympic bows must also be shot with extending front stabilizers. 

The funny thing is Bob, is you come here and tell me to be REALISTIC, when you are selling your arguement from an Olympic archery standpoint. Let me ask you Bob, do you think that most guys who visit archery forums are looking to learn about shooting in the Olympics, or are they simply wanting to buy a good longbow, or recurve that they can shoot accurately at 3-d shoots, their back-yards , and in the deer woods.??? You see Bob, unlike yourself, I am not selling bows. Since you sell recurve bows with compound risers, I seriously doubt that you will ever admit that a well made longbow, will shoot as good as your bows, but I am grounded enough to say that I can make your bows, shoot as good as any longbow, or wood recurve.


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## 30&IN (Jul 12, 2005)

Abel said:


> :thumbs_up
> 
> It doesn't matter what anyone else says: 30&IN already knows everything there is to know about archery. In fact, he invented it. Before 30&IN came along to show us the light, archery was simply called "arrow lobbing" or "wasting time". Luckily, back in 15,364 B.C., old 30&IN came along and made some sense of it all. Lucky for us, huh?
> 
> :smile:  :smile:  :smile:


No Abel, I never claimed to know "everything". I simply stated my opinions, based on my experience, and I see it is becoming ridiculed more and more by people who don't support their claims with foundation, but rather just cast stones at those who do.


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## 30&IN (Jul 12, 2005)

> You see, 30&IN.... most people are intelligent enough to know when the teaching ends and the preaching begins.


Yes, and thats why I came here, to expose these metal risered false prophets :shade: 



> You see 30&IN - it's not all that difficult to make logical statements without going off on a "trad revival circuit" dismissing other styles of traditional archery setups using an extreme approach that hints of (more like screams of) "thou art the mighty archer".


EXCUSE ME, PL, but I am the guy "preaching" that ANY WELL MADE bow , be it metal risered, longbow, or recurve, is capable of consistent accuracy. YOU, and your boys are the ones saying otherwise, so remember YOU are the one doing the "dismissing of other styles", NOT me. May I suggest that you actually read my posts before joining in on the feeding frenzy



> Most folks here have no difficulty discussing archery in a respectful manner without being condenscending in nature.


By "respectful" and "condenscending in nature", do you mean comments like this one of yours????...............




> It's OK guys... have No Fear! UnderArcher (30&IN) is Here!


You see, PL, you and some others have a real problem discussing anything that does not mesh with your agenda, and the moment someone counters it, you get all flustered, and start with the cheap shots, but I am sure you will justify your comments.



> I disagree about the 50's style recurves having no more handshock than metal-risered bows.


Based on what PL.??? Please tell me in your own words why this is so. In other words, please list the 50's style bows you have shot, in comparison with metal riser bows to come up with this proclaimation. Also be soo kind as to list the arrows used, their weight, string type, use of bow quiver ect.....



> And shootng machines are great for accuracy, but guess what? Machines don't hunt or target shoot with them, we do.


Yes, and that includes bows with metal risers.



> but anyone that knows both types are aware without any uncertainty, that lower mass-weight wooden bows exhibit more handshock than ones that have considerable mass weight or rigidity built-in to the riser.


I don't mean to pick on you PL, but that is an absurd statement. As a bowyer, I will tell you that if you take two bows of the same lenth, draw weight, and materials, and recurve one, while leaving the other straight, the straight bow will have WAY more handshock. In fact, if the recurved bow weighs less in mass, it will still have less handshock. 

Your comment is one of the reasons why I think there needs to be some opposing opinions on this board. Left unchecked, your comment would lead some to believe that mass weight determines the degree of handshock, when any bowyer worth his salt knows that design is the MAJOR determining factor. 

I have shoot compound bows that sting the hand. I have also shot metal risered bows that have handshock, and it was because they had poor limb design, in relation to the riser. 

I really hope that you will consider a more objective approach to archery , instead of jumping on the band wagons of johnny come latelys who are trying to reinvent the wheel. When you lock yourself into one school of thought, you become a prisoner to it.


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## Lumis17 (Jun 9, 2003)

30&in,

My turn for Q&A...

The main advantage to elevated rests is that they have minimal contact on the arrow compared to off-the-shelf setups. So why does an elevated rest work better on lighter shafts than heavier shafts?

If elevated rests reduce drag on the arrow then why don't bowhunters shooting at closer yardages not want reduced drag? Why can't they benefit from risers cut past center?

If a metal bow with more mass helps stabilization with a light arrow more than a wooden bow then why doesn't the same apply to heavier arrows?

Basically I'm trying to understand why you think an Olympic bow is more accurate (efficient might be a better word) for long distance shooting with lighter arrows, but not more accurate for shorter distance shooting with heavier arrows.

If longbows can be as accurate as recurves then how come at the vast majority of shoots the scores for the recurve class are generally much higher than the longbow shoots. If you look at national records there's also a noticable difference in scores. And for the longbow shooters who do shoot just as well as the recurve guys do you think their scores wouldn't be better if they dedicated themselves to shooting a recurve?

BTW, what's your definition of light arrow?


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## DwayneR (Feb 23, 2004)

Hello Viper,

Viper>>Ever get the idea that there are just some posts not worth responding too?<<

Yep...

Dwayne


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## rwilliams (May 29, 2005)

"elevated rests give the archer no advantage over accuracy".

Although that sentence made no sense whatseover, I suspect what 30&IN means is that elevated rests give an archer no accurcy advantage over shooting off a shelf. That, too, makes no sense whastsoever and is so far removed from reality that it's actually comical.

It's a valid opinion, as far as opinions go, but it would be the opinion of someone who's opinions are not swayed by reality one little bit. That's cool, though. For some, traditional archery is a good escape from reality.

For those that want to improve their shooting... you'll find an elevated rest setup, particularly one with a plunger/flipper or springy rest will be a LOT more accurate for the average shooter - maybe only a little more accurate for truly spectacularly talented shooters.

There's a reason why some shooting classes require bows to be shot off the shelf. Those setups simply don't shoot as well as setups with rests. This fascination with shooting off the shelf has been one of the recent "anti-compound" knee-jerk reactions and has set traditional archery back about more than anything else except maybe the popularity of hunching and scrunching and snap shooting that is also a wonderful way to make it damned near impossible for an archer to ever become skilled.

I hate vodoo archery. It's damned near ruined this sport.


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## 30&IN (Jul 12, 2005)

Lumis, let me first begin by saying THANK YOU for asking some very real, and valid questions. I think this forum has alot of potential if we all learn to be willing to learn, or at least question POLITELY , opinions presented. 




> The main advantage to elevated rests is that they have minimal contact on the arrow compared to off-the-shelf setups. So why does an elevated rest work better on lighter shafts than heavier shafts?


Very simple, when shooting distance is the issue, ie shots past 25 yards, the minimal contact of an elevated rest allows more arrow speed, hence achieving greater distance than a rug type rest would yeild. Its not that an elevated rest works "better" on lighter arrows, than heavy arrows, but rather ANY arrow will shoot slightly faster off a rest that has less surface contact. This however CANNOT be confused with accuracy. My son shoots a Matthews compound bow with a "whisker biscuit" rest. which has considerable surface contact, however his paper tears are perfect, and his accuracy is awesome with this bow, shooting one inch groups at twenty yards. 

I would also add that many of the light arrows being shot today in competition also sport plastic vanes, and this is why elevated prong type rests serve a better purpose.



> If elevated rests reduce drag on the arrow then why don't bowhunters shooting at closer yardages not want reduced drag? Why can't they benefit from risers cut past center?


First off, you are confusing a slower arrow, with being a less accurate arrow, and this simply is not the case. Also, you are assuming that a metal, cut past center riser, is more accurate. It is not. As I have said, it simply facilitates the use of elevated rests, and sights better. Many wood risers today are center shot, and capable of producing consistent accuracy without resorting to an elevated rest. My recurves, and longbows all have shelves that sit VERY close to my bow hand, which makes them a snap to tune, and really compatiable to the type of bow hunting I do. Add to that, its much easier to hunt with an arrow off the shelf, than one perched on an elevated rest.


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## MarkH (Jan 9, 2004)

You keep going on about wood risered bows 30&in. Any particular reason? I haven't seen where anybody said that wood risered bows are bad, so why be so defensive?


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## rwilliams (May 29, 2005)

Being polite also means stating your opinion as an opinion. If you want to go out there on that thin ice and say something that's absolutely untrue - like "arrow rests have no advantage in accuracy over a shelf setup", without qualifying it as just an arbitrary opinion that you can't possibly support, you can bet your bottom dollar someone who has a clue will come by and crack the ice under your feet. 

I don't know of any polite way to tell someone who's pontificating a bunch of nonsense that they don't know what they're talking about without it being perceived as impolite.

If you don't know something for a fact, state it as an opinion. Everyone concedes people's right to have opinoins, whether they're well-reasoned or not.


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## 30&IN (Jul 12, 2005)

Heres the answers to the rest of your questions.......



> If a metal bow with more mass helps stabilization with a light arrow more than a wooden bow then why doesn't the same apply to heavier arrows?


Mass weight in a bow, is ONLY is a plus, in the right place. Kinda of like a woman :shade: ......Seriously.....Design is the KEY factor in bow stability. Good mass weight is just icing on the cake. I have shot heavy MW bows with handshock, and light MW bows that were sweet shooting. The main purpose of a heavy arrow in my opinion is to provide ample penetration through the deer I hunt. I also find that heavier weight arrows just are more forgiving to me, when I am faced with a quick snap shot on a whitetail deer. However the residiual effects of quieting a bow, and reduced vibration go along with them.



> Basically I'm trying to understand why you think an Olympic bow is more accurate (efficient might be a better word) for long distance shooting with lighter arrows, but not more accurate for shorter distance shooting with heavier arrows.


Yes, efficient is the word. If my aim was shooting bales out to 80 yards, I want a bow with a very short working limb, a long riser, and light arrows off a rest with as minimal surface contact as possible.



> If longbows can be as accurate as recurves then how come at the vast majority of shoots the scores for the recurve class are generally much higher than the longbow shoots.


AWESOME QUESTION!!!

My honest opinion is, is because guys try to shoot a longbow, like a recurve, ie they do the slow methodical draw/hold/aim/release, that many target archers do, when in fact the very finest longbow shooters, practice a fluid motion of drawing, and releasing. 



> And for the longbow shooters who do shoot just as well as the recurve guys do you think their scores wouldn't be better if they dedicated themselves to shooting a recurve?


No, because I think all people have different body types, and the longbow simply fits some better. I myself feel blessed to be able to shoot both. I can slow draw a high wrist recurve, hold it at full draw, and release by pulling with my back muscles, yet I can also shoot arerial targets, and moving targets with a longbow, with a hill style draw, and release. 



> BTW, what's your definition of light arrow?


Another good Question. That depends on the bow. A bow with a long riser, and short limbs handles a lighter arrow better. I once owned a Sovereign Ballistic recurve, that was just that type of bow. It shot a light arrow great, but its short limbs could not handle my heavy cedar hunting arrows, with 160 gr heads. The same is true with these target recurves today. They are designed for shooting light arrows fast. Now, take a Howard Hill long bow and shoot a light target arrow from it, and it will knock your fillings loose, however if you load up a heavy 650 gr + arrow on it, those long working limbs come alive, and cast that arrow with authority. 

In my arsenal, any finished arrow under 550 gr is light.


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## rwilliams (May 29, 2005)

Mark, 30&IN has real difficulty discerning the difference between his opinion and facts. People who do that always get extremely defensive because they've got nowhere to go when their "facts" are put to critical scrutiny.

"It's easier to hunt shooting off a shelf" bullschitt - maybe if your form is so bad you can't keep an arrow on a rest, but otherwise, it's personal preference. I've hunted recurves with rests for 25+ years because it's easier for ME. I know I'm going to hit what I want to hit with such a setup.

"lots of arrows used in competition have vanes and that's why they use elevated rests" bulschitt - another case of not knowing what goes on out there in the real world. Rests give the opportunity to use vanes, but a whole lot of TOP competitors use rests simply because they're more accurate and easier to shoot.

I'll stop there.

Just say it's your opinion, 30&IN. This stuff is nowhere close to being accurate, but no one can argue if you LIKE shooting off a shelf. Trying to argue that it's just as forgiving and accurate as a rest won't fly. It doesn't pass the "reality" test.


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## Hank (Jul 5, 2003)

Guess I better put a Wisker Biscut rest on my longbow 

Greg -- The Quinn Stallion is an excellent bow for the $ -- half the price of a Gamemaster. The nice thing about metal risered bows is many have alot smaller grip, eliminates torque. I shot a Gamemaster last weekend and it shot very well.

http://www.quinnsarchery.com

Hank


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## 30&IN (Jul 12, 2005)

> Although that sentence made no sense whatseover, I suspect what 30&IN means is that elevated rests give an archer no accurcy advantage over shooting off a shelf. That, too, makes no sense whastsoever and is so far removed from reality that it's actually comical.


I can see where this makes no sense to you, if you are unable to achieve consistent accuracy using a shoot off the shelf bows. I know alot of compound guys who claim that all recurves are inaccurate. Often personal short comings cloud vision.



> It's a valid opinion, as far as opinions go, but it would be the opinion of someone who's opinions are not swayed by reality one little bit. That's cool, though. For some, traditional archery is a good escape from reality.


Well, I can only base my opinions on my experience, which I have stated here. How about you RW???. What do you base your opinions on??? in other words, support your "reality"



> For those that want to improve their shooting... you'll find an elevated rest setup, particularly one with a plunger/flipper or springy rest will be a LOT more accurate for the average shooter - maybe only a little more accurate for truly spectacularly talented shooters.


What do you call "shooting" RW.??? What do you consider "accurate" shooting. This may answer alot of questions.



> There's a reason why some shooting classes require bows to be shot off the shelf. Those setups simply don't shoot as well as setups with rests


You really need to speak for yourself RW. What I notice is, is that you, and few others are quick to tell others what won't work for them, based on what won't work for you.



> This fascination with shooting off the shelf has been one of the recent "anti-compound" knee-jerk reactions and has set traditional archery back about more than anything else except maybe the popularity of hunching and scrunching and snap shooting that is also a wonderful way to make it damned near impossible for an archer to ever become skilled.


Actually, I disagree RW, I think the recent rise of metal risered compound bow risers, and elevated rests, and the attacks against anyone who suggests that such things are not needed for accuracy sake, are the direct result of many guys who simply lack the ability to be good archers, so therefore they have struck out to fing some holy grail, that doesn't exist, and many have "attempted" create a level playing field for themselves, while giving folks some horrible mis-information. Of these guys, I think the majority actually TALK more about archery, than actually take part in archery.


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## rwilliams (May 29, 2005)

1st, it made no sense because the word usage was so screwed up as to be incomprehensible. 2nd, it made no sense because it was total bullschitt.

My experience? 30 years and shooting in local, state and/or national competition for over half of those 30.

You can swear up and down all day long that you know what you're talking about and have vast experience and eveyrone else doesn't know squat yada yada yada and it still won't make you right.

Nice try on the "just because you can't ... blah blah... off a shelf.. blah blah blah.... compound bows... blah blah blah".

I know because I can set them up to shoot any way I want and have competed off the shelf and with rests. If you got out of your own backyard and headed to some real competitions, you'd get a valuable education. I'd highly recommend it if you want to tell everyone all about archery. 

Your lack of experience shows in what you're preaching from your soapbox, 30&IN. You might fool the newbies, but you can't fool anyone else.

As for what is accurate shooting? 260 plus indoors is pretty accurate. 240 Plus isn't bad. Averaging 260 plus in 3D isn't bad, either, but with 3D's being so variable, it's not a good measure of accuracy.

On the internet, everyone can be an "expert". You're so wrong on so many counts that I know you've never done any serious competition, starting with the completely erroneous statement that "the best longbow shooters use a smooth, flowing shooting motion"... bullschitt. Have you ever seen Steve Morley shoot? How about Bill Leslie? How about Keith Bain? How about Rod Jenkins?

I didn't think so.

I'll just say it outright. The chasm between what you know and what you think you know is very wide and very deep, 30&IN


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## Lumis17 (Jun 9, 2003)

30&IN,

Taking the same bow/limb design and making a metal riser bow and a wooden riser bow, which one will have more handshock and vibration? Which one will have more mass weight?

The faster a bow shoots the flatter the trajectory, right? If someone plucks the string or drops their bow arm causing the arrow to go low, which bow will make the arrow drop more, a slow one or a fast one? If you mis-judge yardage, consciously or unconsciously, which bow will be off more?

So EVERY single longbow champion and record holder has been trying to shoot longbows the wrong way? In the past 50+ years noone who has dedicated themselves to shooting a longbow as accurately as possible has figured out how to shoot a longbow better than a recurve?

I guess my main question this time is: Does a more efficient bow make a more accurate shooter?


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## Floxter (Sep 13, 2002)

If shooting off the shelf is as accurate as shooting off an elevated rest from a metal riser bow, why don't the IBO scores show that. Typically the metal riser, elevated rest bows shot in Recurve Unaided Class always outscore the wood riser, off the shelf bows by about 20 points or better. They both shoot the same distance; but one always scores higher. The reason the classes were seperated was because the wood riser shooters felt the metal bows and elevated rests offered an unfair advantage.

This thread illustrates one of the inherent dangers of the internet. Any individual can post advice and if it includes enough bombast there will always be some unsuspecting neophyte who will subscribe to his horsepucky. A lot of newbies come to sights such as this looking for guidance and instruction. Unfortunately, being inexperienced they have no way of sifting the wheat from the chaff and may just sign on for the rants of a lone misguided, but hopefully wellmeaning, individual, without knowing any better. If nothing else, it illustrates the value of personalized coaching.


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## Hank (Jul 5, 2003)

As a side note on Metal Risers, David Quinn of Quinn Archery designed and built the first Metal Riser Compound -- the Olympus.

Jennings was still building wooden ones and guess who was winning National Championships?

Hank

http://www.quinnsarchery.com


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## deadeye (Aug 22, 2002)

You guys are funny :smile: 

This is just MY opinion ONLY  

A rest and Plunger will always be more FORGIVING than shooting off the shelf.

Its all about tunning.


I have used a hooter shooter with recurves and longbows out to 30 yards.
there was no difference between the two.

As for the Hoyt, I have only shoot one and only a few arrows. The grip was to small for me. needed to put some wrap on it.But a fine shooter.If it wasn't
so dang ugly. :smile: 


Relax and have fun.


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## 30&IN (Jul 12, 2005)

> Your lack of experience shows in what you're preaching from your soapbox, 30&IN. You might fool the newbies, but you can't fool anyone else.


HEHEHEHE...........NOW I recognize the name. Rob Williams!. Hows all them religous folk over on Trad talk??? Now now Robert, you should know better than that. Didn't you start your own sandbox because Terry, & co wouldn't let you preach what they called your lack of "experience" over on the trad gang. ????

Did you ever shoot against Uncle Ron L.??? I seem to remember you dissing him on the internet, but backing down when you had a chance to shoot against him. Heck, a great shooter like yourself should easily be able to whip that old timer , and his shelf bows, what with your metal risers, and elevated rests, and such:wink: 

Heck, the last time we spoke you told me you hadn't shot all year. I guess them high performance bows just about shoot themselves :tongue: I don't get over to trad talk much, cause it seems that the thread fairy keeps yanking me :teeth: :teeth: :teeth: 

Hey, maybe you could call up ole Mike Fedora Sr, and ask him how I shoot them antiquated , inaccurate shelf bows. Or maybe you could stop by on your way to one of them high profile "events" you attend, and shoot some with me. Bring your hunting album with ya. I'd like to see all them mighty beasts that have fallen with them hi-tek bows. If you ain't got none, thats OK, it'll be our little secret........... :wink: 

Yea, you know who................ :zip:


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## rwilliams (May 29, 2005)

I thought you sounded like a voice of idiocy that I recognized from somewhere. Funny how some things never change and some people never learn. I'm not a big P&Y headhunter. I just shoot deer. Last was a nice 8 pointer. One thing is sure, I laughed my arse off when I looked back through the threads here, caught you in another pi$$ing match with someone else where you staked your knowledge on having a "friend" with 50+ Pope and Young animals. That was too damned funny. I suppose if you had a friend who was a brain surgeon, you'd be claiming you were vastly experienced in neurosurgery.  

No, haven't shot much this year - been busy as hell. The thread fairy over on TradTalk does precious little yanking though unless somone patently earns the right to be on the yank list. I suspect you'd qualify. 

No, ol' Ron LaClaire never did make it down the the World's that year and to my knowledge doesn't shoot 3D at all. But that pi$$ing match is water under the bridge a long time ago. Your memory just isn't all that hot. I don't think Ron shoots 3D anymore - seems that was the impression I was left with after that discussion. 

So how in the hell can someone like you be around this sport for at least a couple of years and still know as little as you do about it? Probably why you have to change your handle all the time - to keep people from immediately putting your arse on the ignore list.

New fishin' holes are hard to find, huh?


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## Abel (Jun 2, 2004)

What a pathetic thing 30&IN.  You just go from forum to forum getting in pissing matches? I only hope your real life isn't so sad.


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## Bob Gordon (Oct 20, 2003)

Now I remember you from a couple other archery forums, why is it you keep getting thrown off forums and keep coming back under a new handle. I remember helping toss you off three times on Tradtalk, enjoyed the job. I guess you just like to argue your venue regardless of the subject. "your way or the highway" I guess. Nice talking to you again Bill, how long do you think you will be allowed to remain on this forum?...warf


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## 30&IN (Jul 12, 2005)

> I thought you sounded like a voice of idiocy that I recognized from somewhere. Funny how some things never change and some people never learn.


whats funny is is how on the phone, you don't talk all the trash you do on the internet. Kinda like when LaClair confronted you, and you shrunk like a violet. 



> One thing is sure, I laughed my arse off when I looked back through the threads here, caught you in another pi$$ing match with someone else where you staked your knowledge on having a "friend" with 50+ Pope and Young animals. That was too damned funny


Actually I staked my knowledge on my own accomplishments. I just mentioned Jeff to add icing to the cake, cause I know how you internet experts get upset when reality is presented to ya. :cocktail: 



> I suppose if you had a friend who was a brain surgeon, you'd be claiming you were vastly experienced in neurosurgery.


Na, I ain't smart enough for that, but I am smart enough to spot a phony when I see one. :shade: 



> No, ol' Ron LaClaire never did make it down the the World's that year and to my knowledge doesn't shoot 3D at all.


True, but He confronted you at another shoot, and ya backed down. Guess ya didn't have your keyboard bow in the truck  



> No, haven't shot much this year - been busy as hell. The thread fairy over on TradTalk does precious little yanking though unless somone patently earns the right to be on the yank list. I suspect you'd qualify


Imagine that, a guy like you not being able to refute the truth. Hey, sanction is often the highest form of flattery  Actually, if you weren't so busy talking about archery, you might actually engage in some  



> So how in the hell can someone like you be around this sport for at least a couple of years and still know as little as you do about it?


Actually the question is, is how can a guy like you be around so long, and be "a great shot in your mind" according to what many who know you say???
You see Robert, you fail to realize that I know the skinny on you. You started your own little forum, because your outrageous claims were shot down by real, and true archers, and bowhunters, not guys who sit behind computers, and occasionaly pick up bow, then claim to be archery authorities. 

I also know people who have seen you shoot, and lets just say that you need to get another spokesman for your agenda. Sorry to air this, but maybe the next time, you should keep your agenda over on your site, where you can delete, and edit the negative feed back you get.


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## 30&IN (Jul 12, 2005)

Bob Gordon said:


> Now I remember you from a couple other archery forums, why is it you keep getting thrown off forums and keep coming back under a new handle. I remember helping toss you off three times on Tradtalk, enjoyed the job. I guess you just like to argue your venue regardless of the subject. "your way or the highway" I guess. Nice talking to you again Bill, how long do you think you will be allowed to remain on this forum?...warf


Actually Bob, I never talked to you, at least I don't remember, however you do seem like the kind of guy that would delight in keyboard removals. Actually I was removed on tradtalk because the religous guys did not like me pointing out their religous hypocrisy. Were you one of them????


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## Bob Gordon (Oct 20, 2003)

30&in...Since the short time you have been on this forum you have broken about every one of the rules of conduct, from off topic to name calling, Its a wonder they haven't tossed you off yet. Bet it happens in the near future. Actually over on TradTalk your couple weeks of posting dribble I can't remember you ever saying anything archery related, just a whole bunch of religous ranting and raveing like a nut case on a soapbox on a street corner. Personal attacks seem to be your forte and enjoyment, have you ever thought of seeking some medical help for your problem?,,,warf


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## 30&IN (Jul 12, 2005)

> 30&in...Since the short time you have been on this forum you have broken about every one of the rules of conduct, from off topic to name calling


Not at all Bob, I simply have stated my opinions, and have dealt with the feeding frenzy of name callers like yourself. In fact, the very post I am quoting of yours, is in violation of the forum rules

.


> Its a wonder they haven't tossed you off yet. Bet it happens in the near future.


Hopefully not, but if the monitors are like you, anything is possible



> Actually over on TradTalk your couple weeks of posting dribble I can't remember you ever saying anything archery related, just a whole bunch of religous ranting and raveing like a nut case on a soapbox on a street corner.


Yes, sadly the mention of Christ upsets people like yourself. BTW Bob, calling me a "nutcase"...is that within forum rules???......Bob, can you say "hypocrisy"???



> Personal attacks seem to be your forte and enjoyment, have you ever thought of seeking some medical help for your problem?,,,warf


Again Bob, re-read your post, then go look in the mirror and say "hypocrisy"


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## rwilliams (May 29, 2005)

Bill, the screwy thing is that I like you personally. You're a good guy who has a really tough time understanding the difference between your own opinions and unequivocal facts that everyone should live by. Or you just like stirring the pot. That's why I told the guys to do what they had to do with you. As much as I think you're a great guy, you just seem incorrigible when it comes to pot stirring. 

Hope you're feeling better with the health and that all is well with the family.


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## 30&IN (Jul 12, 2005)

Rob, you know I really feel the same way about you. On the phone you are nothing like the guy who posts here. In fact, I stood behind you when Terry banned you, because he banned you out of personal vendetta, and that is simply wrong, regardless of pot stirring you did on tradgang. 

I really don't care if you shoot metal bows, or plastic bows, but you need to stop and think about things for a minute. You got banned from tradgang for statng your opinions, right, wrong , or indifferent. I saw nowhere where you broke forum rules, you just said some pretty whacky stuff, and got raked for it, but the powers that be, Terry, and that little twerp Lance Coleman {Lord forgive me} could not tolerate it, and banned you. Myself, I would have allowed you to stay on just to give you enough rope to hang yerself....... :wink: 

Anyway, I'm outa this one. I actually managed to shoot over 250 arrows today, despite typing back and forth, so yes my health is OK, but thanks for asking. Actually the Lyme disease as helped me focus more on my shooting, believe it or not. 

Take care Rob!


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## rwilliams (May 29, 2005)

You take care, too, Bill. It's always whacky stuff when archery becomes a religion rather than a sport.


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## PineLander (Oct 28, 2003)

30&IN said:


> EXCUSE ME, PL, but I am the guy "preaching" that ANY WELL MADE bow , be it metal risered, longbow, or recurve, is capable of consistent accuracy. YOU, and your boys are the ones saying otherwise, so remember YOU are the one doing the "dismissing of other styles", NOT me. May I suggest that you actually read my posts before joining in on the feeding frenzy


Yes, that's correct... you are "preaching".

I have already stated several times that using wooden bows and shooting off shelf can be done accurately, hardly what I would call "dismissing other styles". I've hunted this way for 20 years... I have no agenda to bomblast the "other style", only giving my opinion from what I have experienced.



30&IN said:


> By "respectful" and "condenscending in nature", do you mean comments like this one of yours????...............


Yes, exactly... and my apologies for taunting you in your type of approach in this discussion. Seems like it's all too easy to get "sucked-in" to that type of stuff. I hate it when I attempt to wear a shoe like yours and it never seems to fit... 



30&IN said:


> Based on what PL.??? Please tell me in your own words why this is so. In other words, please list the 50's style bows you have shot, in comparison with metal riser bows to come up with this proclaimation. Also be soo kind as to list the arrows used, their weight, string type, use of bow quiver ect.....


I have owned many wooden bows in the last 20 years and during that time, never shot a metal-risered bow. But when I finally did, IMO (in my opinion) there was no comparison to the "50's style" bows and most of the modern wooden recurves for that matter... including several one-piece Fedoras. Oops, sorry... that's probably a kick in the pants, huh? I don't know what model the "50's style" bows were, I only shot a few that belonged to others to give them a try. It only took me a short time to know I had no interest in owning one, as the level of handshock was more than I preferred. Arrows were woodies in the 50-60# spine range, weighing-in around 450-550 gr. depending on the type of wood, ~ 9-10 gr/lb, with dacron string, and no quiver mounted on any of the bows. 



30&IN said:


> Left unchecked, your comment would lead some to believe that mass weight determines the degree of handshock, when any bowyer worth his salt knows that design is the MAJOR determining factor.


Design is variable from one bow to the other. When making a generalized statement about mass weight as I have done... in most cases, mass weight is a major factor. And if not that, it is the level of rigidity in the riser.



30&IN said:


> I really hope that you will consider a more objective approach to archery , instead of jumping on the band wagons of johnny come latelys who are trying to reinvent the wheel. When you lock yourself into one school of thought, you become a prisoner to it.


No prisoner here... rather free to shoot what I like. If others don't care to take my opinion for what it is (an opinion), so be it. I don't peddle any type of shooting method or bow preference... just point out all the options available and what my preferences are based on my own experiences.

I thoroughly enjoyed shooting that gray actionwood Fedora I purchased from you last year. I guess we just don't see eye to eye on a few things and I don't particularly care for the way you present your "opinion" sometimes, but have it by all means.... Good hunting to you this fall, and be safe.


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## stickbowguy (Sep 28, 2004)

I have owned a GameMaster, nice bow but not what I would call a traditional bow. I never noticed mine to "stack" but I never really draw over 28. As far as using a rest on the game master, some people cant shoot off the shelf, maybe because of form or whatever. I would say form, if you have the right form you can shoot the same off the shelf as you can off a rest, but as I see it once you go to a metal riser and a rest, maybe a sight? then you might as well be shooting a compound. The GameMaster does shoot a little better with a rest, but thats how it was designed, on mine the shelf pad would only last about 50 shots (bad design there) but they figured most people that owned on would put a rest on it. They were targeting the compound shooters looking to try Traditional and it worked. But then again...not really a "traditional" bow. I my self love shooting of the shelf and have never had a problem getting arrows to fly like a dart.
Just thought I would throw in my 2 cents!


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## gregvisser (Jul 27, 2004)

Thanks for the comments Stickbow. I suspect that is what initially attracted me to the Gamemaster. Coming from a compound, the Gamemaster seems to make a lot of sense. I've found it very hard to get hold of any of the 'more' traditional recurves with an arrow rest. Some awesome recurves up for sale, with bushings for quiver and even sight, but only shoot off shelf :sad: . My next bow will probably be more pure traditional and I'll end up going for a longbow with nothing on it, but that's the next step. One small step at a time.

I'll still spend the next week or so looking at woodies - I'm waiting for a few more replies on mails, but if nothing pans it looks like I'll get a Gamemaster. I'm just trying to get some more information on the Loesch grips, but they've also been slow at replying to emails  

Cheers,

Greg


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## PineLander (Oct 28, 2003)

stickbowguy said:


> .... but as I see it once you go to a metal riser and a rest, maybe a sight? then you might as well be shooting a compound.


Oh no... not again. Somebody must've called the trad police. :thumbs_do

No offense, stickbowguy... but there just might be more to shooting a recurve or longbow (regardless of equipment used) than making sure one is as "traditional" as one can be. Guess there's just as many definitions of that particular term as there are different styles of bows, equipment, aiming, and mindset. To each their own. 



gregvisser said:


> Some awesome recurves up for sale, with bushings for quiver and even sight, but only shoot off shelf..


That's not entirely true, Greg. There are many stick-on rests available that work nicely with those bows as well.


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## gregvisser (Jul 27, 2004)

PineLander said:


> That's not entirely true, Greg. There are many stick-on rests available that work nicely with those bows as well.


Good point Piney. I actually know some guys shooting stick-ons with their compound. But I must confess that I'm not a big fan (have seen one guy's stick-on die a horrible death and him not shooting a comp) - I'm a bit more of a 'it must screw in' kinda guy (rightly or wrong so). One thing about shooting off the shelf - it is always there and there is no way it will break down!  

Cheers,

Greg


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## Viper1 (Aug 21, 2003)

greg -



> One thing about shooting off the shelf - it is always there and there is no way it will break down!


It's there until the adhesive that holds the rug or strike plate fails. The same adhesive that holds them in place is used for stick on rests. And with a stick on, carrying a spare is like carrying a spare string, even if you never have to use it. Try replacing a rug in the field and retaining the same nocking point!

And you thought it was going to be easy 

Viper1 out.


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## stickbowguy (Sep 28, 2004)

I dont really care what type of bow or what someone wants to put on that bow to make them better, I my self just like to keep it as simple as I can. As far as "traditional" goes I just think that once you start adding a rest or a sight or whatever it is that you start to move away from "traditional" Im not saying that everyone has to be "traditional" or shoot a self bow. What brought me to traditional archery was the added challange and the simpleness of a stick bow. But as I see it, it does not matter what type of bow or what you have on it as long as your shooting and having fun.


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## Viper1 (Aug 21, 2003)

stickbowguy -

Can't argue with your reasoning, but would like to give you and some of the newer guys a little historical perspective.

I'm not sure what tradiitonal is. With the compound bow revolutiuon, guys either go high tech and love it or they get into it and after a while get almost disgusted or replused by all the tuning, gadgets, and this year's model ain't good enough attitude that a lot of compound guys have - so the pendulum swings to the opposite extream - they revert to "traditional". 

When I started shooting (target and hunting), compounds didn't exist, or at least weren't common. We all shoot stickbows, that's all there were. But I gotta tell ya, no one used wood arrows (unless they couldn't afford aluminum or fiberglass), no one shot off the shelf, and you might see one flemish string out of a hundred. Sights / barebow were about 60/40, IIRC. Most people had at least one bow with a sight, either a target bow or a hunting bow or both, and most has stabilizers, even if they were the tape on kind! Some of the real "wildcats" even had releases. Longbows - I had people I didn't know stopping by the house because I was one of the first guys in my neighborhood who had a (HH) longbow. (At that time HH Archery asked if they could use you as a reference - there was no internet.)

So, you're right, as long as you're doing it the way you want to, and you're good at it, or getting better at it - you're a winner. As for me I'm just waiting for he pendulum to come back to center - maybe hoping is a better word.

Viper1 out.


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## Bob Gordon (Oct 20, 2003)

Viper is right on as he usually is. I started back in the mid 50's, long before the compound was ever thought of. I did a lot of competition and hunting ever since then. NOBODY shot off a shelf, it was considered "entry level stuff" there were many semi-custom bowyers out there and they offered hunting bows and dual purpose bows (hunting,target) most of the better quality bows came with a elavated rest either built in like the Bear bows or a stick on of some kind, most had stabalizer inserts also. NOBODY shot a longbow and very few used wood arrows, that was the world of the recurve and like Viper said at least 70% shot with a sight on the bow. Most used aluminum arrows, very small feathers, some used the first plastic vanes and NOBODY shot with field points, light weight arrows were the in thing. Most were target archers first and hunters second. That's just the way it was back in the golden days of the stickbow. Was is called "trad" now didn't exist much way back then, much of today's trad hipe is just that hipe. It still is a great fun sport but much of what was used in the 50,s 60, 70,s is not considered traditional any more and it's a shame as most of we did back then works excellent today but now it is frowned upon even though it was very popular in the good old days....warf


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## Viper1 (Aug 21, 2003)

Warf -

Thanks! but ya some of us did use field points, both the glue-ons and the screw-ins. 

Oh yeah, no body worried about the KE / M non-sense either. The average "hunting" bow was #45 - #50, and the whitetails didn't seem to mind. I guess the deer got a lot tougher over the years. Combat training, probably. :tongue: 

  

Viper1 out.


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## Dave T (Mar 24, 2004)

I started "classical" archery in the late 1950s and shot through the 1960s and into the early 1970s.

As to what Viper and Bob Gordon said, *DITTO*!

Dave


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## Viper1 (Aug 21, 2003)

Warf , Dave -

Ya know if we keep this up, they're going to start an old timers forum for us.

:beer: :slice: :shade: 

Viper1 out.


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## Dave T (Mar 24, 2004)

Viper1 said:


> ...old timers...


At least you used the polite version of what we would be called - LOL!

Dave


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## Bob Gordon (Oct 20, 2003)

Yea...they probably will call it "The way it REALLY was" or archery from the social security guys...warf


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## Floxter (Sep 13, 2002)

Greg, a properly prepared and applied stick-on rest has to be one of most reliable rests available. Rick McKinney won several U.S. National Championships and set all kinds of existing records shooting the still available Hoyt Super Rest; all of $2.50. And he shot a lot more arrows in one day's FITA than the average hunter probably shoots all year.

Most youngsters today don't even know what a feather rest or a brush rest looks like. Now those were "traditional."


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## PineLander (Oct 28, 2003)

I recently purchased a Hoyt Pro-Rest from Three Rivers Archery (a "traditional" shop). It is identical to the original ones I have, but it has a metal striker plate and rest rather than plastic... one of the best-performing rests I've ever used. The Bear Weatherrest ain't no slacker when it comes to hunting usage, very durable and will hold a woodie shaft very nicely. I can shoot with it canted or vertical with no difference in arrow flight... shaft doesn't even come close to falling off rest at vertical either, seems to be rather simple actually.  

Gee.... ever wonder why all those used 60-70's era bows you see on eBay these days (Pearsons, Shakespeares, Hoyts, Bears, Herters, Wings, etc.) have flat shelfs? hmmm... and they sure look like HUNTING bows too. Never could figure out why everyone tries to build-up the shelf so they can shoot them off-the-shelf. Maybe it's got something to do with arrow closer to hand? But of course, after building it up, you're at the height of a stick-on rest anyways.  

My first hunting recurve was a used Shakespeare hanging in a pro-shop looking all lonely and dusty amongst the fancy new compounds. I paid $35 for it, slapped on a new $1.00 stick-on rest (the original one was very old and battered) and man did that bow kill some deer. :shade:

Greg, sorry for the off-topic posting.... sometimes discussions get side-tracked, but still have some interesting information. I think you will enjoy a Gamemaster if that's the direction you go. It's a nice shooting bow, weighs only 2 lb. 14 oz. and will serve you well whether it be target shooting or hunting. Try a different string than the original one that comes with the Gamemaster. IMO, it's way too thick (16-strand dacron) for a 40-50# bow, and get a FF type string in 12 or 14-strand for better performance.


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## gregvisser (Jul 27, 2004)

Piney, for a newbie there is no such thing as 'off topic'. 'Off topic' only brings up stuff I haven't thought about or asked. So it's all good. Believe it or not, this has been the most useful thread to date for me!

Thanks again to all for some good discussion!

Keep it coming.

Greg


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## 30&IN (Jul 12, 2005)

I think one of things that many folks over look, is that the bows sold by Pearson, Bear, Root, and so forth back in 50's and sixtys, were targeted {pun intended}, at the back yard suburban archer. Target archery was king then. That is why it is rare to see any 55# + bows of that era foe sale. What is common are bows that are very long, and very light. Back then, the primary focus was casting light arrows, long distances. Hence many of these bows were offered with stab holes, and sight, and rest bushings. 



However, most all serious bowhunters back then, like today, shoot bows with shelfs on them. It was mentioned that many bows of that era had flat shelves. Yes they did, and despite that, they still were capable of consistent accuracy. Today, those who are touting the metal risered bow, with elevated rests as being the missing link of hunting accuracy, fail to realize that such a premise was tried, and dismissed decades ago, with the premier bowhunters of that day, almost to man, opting for the shot off the shelf bow, just as the premier bowhunters of today do.

Recently the rise of hybrid bows, recurves with compound risers have been being sold as the the newest "bees kness". By using the compound bow riser, the manufacturers claim that "accuracy is made easier". What these makers fail to tell the novice archer, is, is that when his metal risered bow with and elevated rest, is canted severely to take a 3 yard shot from a treestand, or a kneeling shot from a ground blind, the flight dynamics are severely altered. Any compouner will tell you that canting a compound will often result in a blown shot. 

What is amazing is, is that no bowhunter would suggest to use a shelf shot, bow with heavy hunting arrows to try and win an Olympic shoot, yet some of these target archers are suggesting using metal risered bows with rests, or even sights , and light target arrows as a deer hunting weapon. Not to say it cannot be done. I have taken deer with metal recurve bows, rests, and sights, but I will also tell you they offer you no more accuracy than a shelf bow without a rest, and they actually are more of a liability to a bowhunter.


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## Bob Gordon (Oct 20, 2003)

30&in...Once again your wrong as usual but not wanting to start another two page argument with you I guess you can beleive what you want and I will let it go at that, have a nice Sunday....warf


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## LBR (Jan 1, 2004)

Folks here shot hunting bows off rests "back then". I'm not sure why, I just know they did--at least according to my uncle and several others that are much older than me that were bowhunting before compounds came along. I think the feather rest was the most popular. I've seen a few brush rests around also. 

Pounds was THE bow to have in this area back in the late 60's through at least part of the 70's (until Mr. Pounds untimely death), and at least some of (if not all) his hunting bows were designed to be shot off of an elevated rest. I have one of his Supercaster models that was designed this way. A lot of folks used sights on their hunting recurves back then also--at least around here they did. 

Personally, I don't use an elevated rest. I don't have anything against them, I just don't have a need for it, and in most of the tournaments I participate in they are illegal.

Try it and see if it works for you. If it does, great; if not, you have only invested a small amount and now you know.

Chad


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## 30&IN (Jul 12, 2005)

Bob Gordon said:


> 30&in...Once again your wrong as usual but not wanting to start another two page argument with you I guess you can beleive what you want and I will let it go at that, have a nice Sunday....warf


Bob, you make, and sell recurve bows with compound risers, so you have to claim that I am wrong........ :wink:


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## PineLander (Oct 28, 2003)

Why is it that many of the older bows I've seen have very distinct evidence that an elevated rest was on them for a very long time? I too have spoken to many archers that were shooting in the 60's and 70's that have described using elevated rests and sights... not only for target shooting, but for hunting as well. Many of the older Red Wings, Pearsons, Herters Sitkas, etc. were 60" and less in length, hardly what I'd call a "target bow". I have heard many times that bowhunting legend Paul Schafer used an elevated rest routinely (wet environment, ok... but he used one nonetheless). Of course, compounders will say that canting the bow creates problems... the rests they utilize commonly places the arrow in a somewhat "suspended" position with the shaft having no contact with a striker plate, thereby paradox against the riser (or lack thereof) affects the launch.


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## Floxter (Sep 13, 2002)

Here's another bit of archery history for you youngsters out there. I belong to the oldest archery club in Michigan - Detroit Archers. It was founded in 1928 by 17 individuals, one of whom was Fred Bear, who became the first president. One of the most fractious periods in the history of the club arose in the early 60s, when shooters started affixing sights to their bows. Some of the then, oldtimers, wanted to ban them from the club. For several years the battle raged. The only thing that finally resolved it was when a bigger battle arose over the use of mechanical releases in the late 60s and early 70s. Then the sighted and non-sighted shooters banded together to try and ouster the release shooters. Finally, the issue was resolved with the arrival of all things: the dreaded compound bow. It seems the more things change, the more they stay the same.


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## Viper1 (Aug 21, 2003)

greg -

We've obviously stolen your thread, but ya know it really does put a different slant on things once you have a idea of what the real history was, from a lot of the guys who were actually there.

If there's a point to be made out of this: you can shoot whatever and however you want, but do it because you want to and not out of some misquided notion of what's right and what isn't just because some guy in a book, video or some magazine tells you it's so. 

:thumbs_up 

Viper1 out.


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## 30&IN (Jul 12, 2005)

Viper1 said:


> greg -
> 
> We've obviously stolen your thread, but ya know it really does put a different slant on things once you have a idea of what the real history was, from a lot of the guys who were actually there.
> 
> ...



AMEN!.......Viper, thats something I can agree with!. No one should EVER be detered in their pursuit, just because someone tells them a certain way of shooting, or certain types of tackle are more accurate. I'll thumbs that up too! :thumbs_up


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## PineLander (Oct 28, 2003)

Gee wiz, 30&IN... I was going to say the same thing. That is a great way to say that people do have opinions and it's good to discuss them openly. Although I must admit, it sure is diffucult to understand why some have to spend an overt amount of time dissing the other side of the fence as nonsense. :wink:


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## Viper1 (Aug 21, 2003)

Wow -

Bill and Piney agreeing ... sorta !!!

Very cool!

Viper1 out.


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## >--gt--> (Jul 1, 2002)

> It's a nice shooting bow, weighs only 2 lb. 14 oz. and will serve you well whether it be target shooting or hunting. Try a different string than the original one that comes with the Gamemaster. IMO, it's way too thick (16-strand dacron) for a 40-50# bow, and get a FF type string in 12 or 14-strand for better performance.


The Gamemaster is 2# 6 ounces, not 2# 14.

The string is custom made Flemish by a well known traditional supplier, and it is D75 Dyneema, not Dacron.


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## PineLander (Oct 28, 2003)

How many strands? The one I used (came with the bow) was a very thick string (I counted 16 strands), but it sure looked thicker than a 16-strand D97. I weighed the bow on an ounce scale at the pro-shop and that is what the scale read.


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## LBR (Jan 1, 2004)

PL, pull out a tag end and see if you can snip it with nail clippers. If it cuts fairly easily, it's dacron. Pretty sure D-75 is Brownell's answer to BCY's Dynaflight '97, and it shouldn't cut easily, if at all, with nail clippers. Still pretty thick--I usually use 14 strands of '97 on my 66# longbow--but it shouldn't be as thick as a dacron string. It will be a good bit thicker than a 16 strand FF though.

Chad


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## Floxter (Sep 13, 2002)

Guys, for those of you who don't know who >--gt--> is, his name is George Tekmitchov. He is the chief design engineer for Hoyt, who just happened to design the Gamemaster. I think I'd take his answer for the specs on the Gamemaster.


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## PineLander (Oct 28, 2003)

Yes Floxter... I was aware of that. I'm not a string expert, but was not happy with the string (whatever it is) that ships with the bow. Of course, if it had been a 60-65# bow I could understand the 16-strand, but at 50# why provide 16-strand Dyneema? I would think 12 or 14 would suffice. But then again, it's marketed as a hunting bow and I know some prefer thicker strings. 

Maybe the scale in the pro-shop was way off, but I doubt it... 
so maybe I just wrote it down incorrectly.


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## Viper1 (Aug 21, 2003)

Piney -

Didn't happen to have an 8 oz stab or quiver on it???

And yeah, there seems to be a trend by several manufactures these days to supply every bow with a 16 strand "whatever" string, whether it needs it or not. Probably keeps production costs down.  

Viper1 out.


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## PineLander (Oct 28, 2003)

Viper1 said:


> Piney -
> 
> Didn't happen to have an 8 oz stab or quiver on it???


Nope... nada, nothing "extra". 

Might not have been wearing my "reading" glasses though. LOL


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## rwilliams (May 29, 2005)

Shooting off the shelf gives an archer a significant advantage when it comes to making excuses for his shooting. I recommend to anyone who would like to trade in his excuses for better shooting to try a few inexpensive rests. It will cost less than the price of a single quality arrow and will almost certainly reduce the amount of money you need for your arrow budget - but you might have to increase your nock budget a smidgen. Contrary to some rather bizarre folk tales, you really won't grow hair on your palms if you use an arrow rest. Good shooting has always been traditional. The challenge of trying to kill a deer with poor shooting skills and a setup that is as hard to shoot as possible is a very recent phenomenon. Calling such a trend that has only sprung up within the last 10 years "traditional" is the a very interesting cultural development.

My opinion is probably biased because I was involved and very interested in archery before the compound came into popularity, though, so I'm a little out of step with the current traditional culture. I keep thinking of it as life for archers before the compound bow instead of a cult movement of neo-primitive re-enactment. So if my opinion varies from yours, it's just a generation thing because I don't understand the obsession with tattoos, body piercing, hip-hop music, pimped out 4 cylider front-wheel drives or "fly foschizzle manizzle" either.


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## Floxter (Sep 13, 2002)

I'd bet that since it's a flemish string to minimize noise, they made it 16 strands to also minimize creep as much as possible.


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## Lumis17 (Jun 9, 2003)

A thinner string might not always mean a better string. I think my 18-strand 8125 strings feels SLIGHTLY better than my 16-strand 8125 strings, though the performance seems to be the same.


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## 30&IN (Jul 12, 2005)

> Shooting off the shelf gives an archer a significant advantage when it comes to making excuses for his shooting. I recommend to anyone who would like to trade in his excuses for better shooting to try a few inexpensive rests.


You see Robert, here is the problem. Over on tradtalk, you can make unfounded claims like that because you control the comments, yet in reality, this is simply an absurd comment coming from a guy who is mediocore shot according to some very trusted sources who have witnessed you shooting. While I have personally never saw you shoot, I trust the opinions told to me, and I kinda think that just because you could never master the form, and skill to shoot an arrow well off the shelf, you simply assume everyone is like you, and thats just not the case. 

I don't mean to hurt your feelings, cause I think you are an OK guy, but I just don't think you are an authority on shooting skill, and I think you are still carrying your vendetta against guys who shoot well off the shelf over here. You did the same thing over on Tradgang , and some big fish over there put you in your place, hence you started your own little pond. {tradtalk} Thats OK with me. If you were to have the kudo's of well respected archers, and if you had an impressive record of big game success to back you up, then I would listen to you, but thats not the case. The most highly respected archers, and bowhunters in America shoot off the shelf. They do not do it to make excuses for their shooting. However on the otherhand you seem to want to point out that your poor shooting was due to shooting off a shelf. So now we are left with a massive list of successful bowhunters, and archers who shoot off the shelf, and see it as no handi-cap, then we have you, and a handful of tradtalk croonies who claim that they are all missing the mark. 

Somehow I think you will miss the intent of this rebuking, and just counter with more insults directed at folks who do things different. Look, if you feel that a rest makes you shoot better, then do use it Robert, but please, don't make blanket comments about the skills of others, based on your skills. Thats a shame, because God has gifted you with an archery forum, and instead of using it to promote all types of archery, you are simply using it as a vehicle of self glorification, and agenda pushing.


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## rwilliams (May 29, 2005)

Bill, if the shelf shooters quit whining about arrow rest shooters, I'd change my mind. Until then, it's pretty clear that the shelf shooters doing all the sniveling about "you can't shoot that bow - it's got an ARRRRROOOOWWW RESSSSTT ON IT... WWAAAAAAHHHHHH", sounds like a lot of excuse making to me. Especially when they don't even get a breath in before they start talking about how much of an advantage shooting off the shelf is. 

When everyone gets it figured out which side of the argument they're supposed to be taking, I'll stop pointing out how ridiculous it sounds to claim the shelf is every bit as good except that arrow rests are an unfair advantage.

If you don't use a shelf for an excuse, I don't see how you could consider it an insult when I say people DO use it for an excuse. I wouldn't be talking about YOU, if you don't do it, right? If I recall you did say that you think a shelf is just as good so I KNOW I couldn't have been talking about you, Bill. So don't get all bent out of shape, Bill. Sometimes you're just too sensitive.

If the shoe doesn't fit, don't cram it on your foot and complain about how much it hurts.

About my shooting..... I don't talk about it much but that's not because I'm embarassed by it and I'd be more than happy to accompany you on a 3D course sometime to check out the veracity of your buddies' scouting reports, LOL. 

Don't worry about hurting my feelings, Bill. I know you too well to take you too seriously.


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## 30&IN (Jul 12, 2005)

> Bill, if the shelf shooters quit whining about arrow rest shooters, I'd change my mind. Until then, it's pretty clear that the shelf shooters doing all the sniveling about "you can't shoot that bow - it's got an ARRRRROOOOWWW RESSSSTT ON IT... WWAAAAAAHHHHHH", sounds like a lot of excuse making to me. Especially when they don't even get a breath in before they start talking about how much of an advantage shooting off the shelf is.


Robert, where do you get this stuff from? Where on this thread is any shelf shooter complaining about the advantage of an arrow rest?. In fact, it quite the opposite. What I see is a a few guys, including myself stating that not only do they not offer an advantage, but that a shelf bow can be shot just as accurate. 



> When everyone gets it figured out which side of the argument they're supposed to be taking, I'll stop pointing out how ridiculous it sounds to claim the shelf is every bit as good except that arrow rests are an unfair advantage.


Your just miffed because I take both sides of the arguement. I contend that both can be shot equally accurate, and that while each have various attributes wrt hunting and target archery, neither on stands out as being superior from an accuracy standpoint, and talk like that chaps your arse because YOU are the guy trying to push the arrow rest craze. You see you contend that tackle makes a man accurate. I contend that ability does. 



> If you don't use a shelf for an excuse, I don't see how you could consider it an insult when I say people DO use it for an excuse. I wouldn't be talking about YOU, if you don't do it, right? If I recall you did say that you think a shelf is just as good so I KNOW I couldn't have been talking about you, Bill. So don't get all bent out of shape, Bill. Sometimes you're just too sensitive.


 You contend that there is this anti arrow rest "boogeyman" running around every traditional archery forum warning the good people that use of a rest is "unfair", and gives them an extreme advantage , and this just does NOT exist. Not on this forum, not on the LW, and not on your forum. So what we are left with you accusing people who use an arrow shelf of using it as an "excuse for poor shooting". Do you even realize how silly that sounds Robert???. Its not that I am sensitive, but rather a stickler for the truth. 

As for shooting together. Maybe the next time I'm up Fedors's you could stop in, or just ask Mike how I shoot them 50's style recurves off those inaccurate 
old arrow shelves.......... :teeth:


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## palmer (Sep 23, 2003)

Back to the original topic... :smile: 

The Gamemaster is an awesome hunting bow. Even at my 30" draw, it does not stack which really surprised me since it's a 62" bow but the riser is 21" so that helps. I tried an 18 strand 8125 string with diamondback end serving and that seemed to be a little quieter than the flemish string that came with it, plus I really had to twist the stock string alot to get the right brace height. I also added limb savers at the fadeout of the limbs and used a tied-on nocking point and they both helped limit any noise. For a recurve I think it is quiet. I've seen reports of it being loud, but I don't know where that comes from. It's a relative term, I guess.

Somebody said the Gamemaster has a "high-wrist" grip? Can't say I agree there. It's actually a low grip which I prefer for hunting. I shoot olympic gear with medium grips and the Gamemaster definitely is not a "high" grip at all.

As far as shooting an elevated rest or off the shelf. Suit yourself, but anybody that says tuning a bow shot off the shelf is as easy as tuning one with an elevated rest or that the accuracy is the same? Baloney. An elevated rest eliminates fletching contact. That's a pretty simple concept and results in more consistent and accurate arrow flight. I guess it depends on what group size you're happy with. Granted, for a hunting bow, shooting off the shelf is plenty accurate but to make a blanket statement that it isn't any less accurate than an elevated rest is just plain wrong, sorry. :smile:


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## WildmanSC (Sep 25, 2003)

gregvisser said:


> I'm just trying to get some more information on the Loesch grips, but they've also been slow at replying to emails
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Greg


Greg,

If you are looking for a different grip to replace the one that comes standard with the Gamemaster, I've checked with Loesch, Johnson, Deatch Grip and a fella named Bob ( can't remember his last name) and none of them make anything different to replace the standard grip. I'm going to do something to relieve the stress I experience with mine in the web of my thumb/index finger at the wood to metal transition point on the upper point of the grip.


I have a 45#@28" Gamemaster. I have not checked the draw weight, but I have shot it through a chrony. Shooting 356 gr carbon at my 27.5" draw length I got 199 fps.

Bill


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## gregvisser (Jul 27, 2004)

Wow Bill, you dragged this thread out of the deep dark corners! :wink: 

In the end I decided to get something custom and went for a Chek Mate. Could get the poundage I needed as well as a custom grip (thinned and low wrist). Still have this today (8 months on) and after shooting about 3,000 arrows through it I am still on the original string.

Cheers,

Greg


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## ndemiter (Jun 12, 2007)

the thing i've noticed with my game master is to get rid of that factory string. 

it took me a long time to figure out why my bow felt weird on the draw after a while. i couldn't even hit a carp to save my soul, let alone a deer, and i'm proficient with my longbow enough to warrent better groupings than i was getting. the twisted flemish string design slips, i've seen it on my own , and a the other two at the archery shop i bought mine from.

check your brace height, if it's shy of 7-7.5" that would be the culprit.

after i made a new string, installed some limbsaver string leeches (now it's good and quiet), i think it might be the best traditional bow i've owned... but my next i think is going to be a martin savanah... i shot it a few times and fell in love, don't know anything about their durability yet though.


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## Mark Land (Dec 4, 2003)

I have a Gamemaster and it is a very nice shooting bow, once you get it tuned properly and set the brace height correctly, it shoots very nice and quiet. 1 thing to keep in mind, with trad bows, you are compressing at draw vs. stretching out with the let-off common with compounds, therefore it is very common to draw 1-1/12in less draw with trad bows then compounds, so I am sure you are drawing closer to 28in then 29in on that bow. I shoot 28in on compound and just under 27in on my BW's. The Gamemaster does not stack that I have noticed and draws very smooth, but 1 thing I did have to do is set my nock pt really high, I am at around 7/8in nock height on mine, but that is what bareshaft tunes the best. Mark


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## MoonDragn (Jun 19, 2006)

Wow, so many interesting viewpoints in here. I might as well add my 2 cents in. Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the arrow supposed to clear the rest entirely when it is spinned correctly for the bow. Anotherwords, there shouldn't be any fletch contact at all. And even if there is, the feathers collapses enough for it not to affect the shot that much.

In my experience, the rest does help beginning archers because it is easier to tune and works wonders if you happen to shoot vanes as vanes don't seem to clear the shelves that well. I've seen rest shooters improve their scores faster than shelf shooters, but both progressed to the same point after a period of time.

Back to the original topic, I do own a dreamcatcher and it doesn't have that much stack. It does however have alot of handshock. This is because the bow is extremely light. It has really good accuracy though once you can overcome the handshock.

I currently shoot a black widow SA II Ironwood. The bow weighs a ton but doesn't have any handshock at all. I can shoot this bow alot more consistently than the dreamcatcher, but the dreamcatcher seems more accurate.(could just be my arrow tuning)


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