# Dissimilar Riser and ILF Limb usage



## Matterhorn (Mar 27, 2010)

I was wondering if there were any combinations of ILF Risers and Limbs that should be avoided? For example: Hoyt Risers with Samick Limbs or Win Win Risers with Hoyt Limbs. I want to buy a competition Bearbow set up, but wasn't sure if there were serious geometry conflicts that need to be avoided. Thank you all very much.


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## Hank D Thoreau (Dec 9, 2008)

Are you planning on purchasing a competition barebow specific riser such as those from Spigarelli, Bernarndini or Best? I have Best risers and have used Border, Hoyt, PSE and KAP limbs with no problems. Risers from companies, such as Hoyt, Win Win, Samick, PSE etc., can be used for barebow but are not designed for that purpose. Some folks will add external weights for balance; others will use their hand to keep the riser from tipping back.


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## Matterhorn (Mar 27, 2010)

Hank, from my compound days and from using a longbow the last 2 years I have come to enjoy a low wrist form...however I would rather not get into using weights if I don't have to. But what I don't want (as you mentioned) is for the bow to "tip back" so, a bearbow specific riser may be best...I have come to like string walking and have practiced that method with my Tradtech Pinnacle II bow which has the Samick Carbonwood Limbs. I'm looking to upgrade that set up with a competition package for indoors and field archery at, say the 36# range.

Thanks, Troy


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## Hank D Thoreau (Dec 9, 2008)

The purpose of the weights are to keep the bow from hitting you in the head following release. The Italian risers I mentioned have weights that install in the bottom of the risers. This helps the balance and provides stability. Usually, additional weight is required in the lower stabilizer hole. Spigarelli makes screw in weights that are profiled to meet the FITA barebow requirement that the unstrung bow fit through a 12.2 cm ring. How much weight you use depends on how much balance you are looking for. You can always use your little finger to lightly catch the bow. It is more difficult to balance a standard bow -- they are designed to be used with stabilizers. I too, have been shooting a longbow lately. I really understand now the benefit of weight. Any little twitch or push sends the arrow flying since the longbow is so light and provides little resistance to these form breaks. The risers mentioned all come with low, medium and high grip options.


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## zal (May 1, 2007)

Just keep in mind that as some manufacturers have different geometries from others, poundages may vary a bit, +-2 mostly. I haven't heard from any source that difference in geometry or mixing would harm scores.


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## caspian (Jan 13, 2009)

other than a certain bow manufacturer who throws a hissy fit about it and scaremongers at every opportunity about how it won't work. to the point of recently changing their limb mounting mechanism to try to lock archers into using their gear exclusively.


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## Matterhorn (Mar 27, 2010)

Thank you to all for the advice and thanks for taking the time to get back with me. I appreciate it. Troy


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## Hank D Thoreau (Dec 9, 2008)

Matterhorn, I tried to respond to your message but got an error that you either do not accept or are not permitted to accept private messages.

Here is some info on Best Risers.

The best place to get them if through Alternative in the UK. Ordering direct from Italy is an experience, mostly because of the shipping by Postal Italiane is unpredictable. Carlo of Best is very helpful and speaks English. As far as I know, of the three Itanlian barebow risers, Best is the only one not sold in the US. You can get Spigarelli and Bernardini from Lancaster and you can get Bernardini from K1 (possibly the others as well since K1 is well connected in Europe).

Best does not come with a limb alignment system which makes them unique for high end risers. It is one of the reasons I chose them. Best says that they machine the risers straight so they do not need it. Of course, that would keep you from being able to adjust for a twisted limb, but would you really want to do that. I found that a missaligned Border limb in my PSE Intrepid, is perfect in my Zenit.

Check out the Alternative Archery website. They carry all of the risers. They are hit and miss used since not a lot of folks shoot them and they do not come up for sale often. Last I checked the Best Moon was a little over $400 but I have seen it drop below $400 at times when the dollar is high relative to the pound. The barebow kit is about $26 and you need two if you want to fill both holes. Only one weight assembly comes with each kit. That puts the whole riser at about the $460 range. The 25" Zenit is cost more and it does not have as good of a weight kit. For a barebow person the Moon is great. The only real difference I see (other than the better weight kit for the Moon) is the Zenit has bushings for the stabilizer holes and the Moon does not. That helps a bit when mounting a weight and would be very beneficial if you were taking a stabilizer on and off.


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## whiz-Oz (Jul 19, 2007)

caspian said:


> other than a certain bow manufacturer who throws a hissy fit about it and scaremongers at every opportunity about how it won't work. to the point of recently changing their limb mounting mechanism to try to lock archers into using their gear exclusively.


I can't believe you're still going on about the "lock archers into using their gear exclusively" argument. It is incomprehensible to me why you persist with that predjudice. There are other smaller target recurve manufacturers who have only totally proprietary limb systems and you haven't mentioned them. If your point your finger at Hoyt, unless you're demonstrating irrational predjudice, you MUST point your finger at them also. You conveniently ignore that compound limbs *even within the same manufacturers *aren't interchangeable for the vast majority of models. Even with a little comparision to how the rest of the world works in terms of not making interchangeable competing products, I note that you don't have the same logical argument. The second that Border made a single set of limbs to fit the RX risers, your already illogical and unsupportable argument was dealt a deathblow. 
Just give this idea away. You undermine your overwhelmingly logical arguments with this ridiculous hysteria and hate seeing your destroy your own credibility. You are much better than this, Scott. Please re-examine this idea logically and you'll see that it has no grounds for justification.

The simple reason that manufacturers don't recommend mixing and matching limbs is that there is no standard. If you have problems with a single manufacturer, it's a simple warranty claim. If it's not a single manufacturer, it's by definition, the consumers problem. No manufacturer warranties their product as being interchangeable with other manufacturers when there is a non standard interface.


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## caspian (Jan 13, 2009)

whiz-Oz said:


> I can't believe you're still going on about the "lock archers into using their gear exclusively" argument. It is incomprehensible to me why you persist with that predjudice.


because it's true?



> There are other smaller target recurve manufacturers who have only totally proprietary limb systems and you haven't mentioned them.


any significant ones?



> You conveniently ignore that compound limbs *even within the same manufacturers *aren't interchangeable for the vast majority of models.


compound bows are effectively an engineered system. recurves are modular.

even then the only reason that compounds aren't mix-and-matched more is the issue of getting cams that will definitely work, having a harness made etc. I do know of one frankenbow made with a PSE riser, Hoyt limbs, and (I think) modified Hoyt cams, plus a harness custom made for it. then again the archer that built it knows more than a little about compound bows, and I don't think it was cheap. the vast majority of people will just buy a bow and shoot it, but there's always people who want to tinker to some degree - all the way from string stops to shoot through cable conversions.

all any riser is is... a handle to hold the limb pockets apart, and at the right angle. machine enough of it away so its light but still strong, and don't induce any harmonic vibration in the process. I'm not saying that anyone can do it in their shed, but its hardly rocket science.



> The second that Border made a single set of limbs to fit the RX risers, your already illogical and unsupportable argument was dealt a deathblow.


I was glad to see that Border made a set of limbs to suit, but I suspect it was more to annoy Hoyt than anything else. If you want Border limbs then you'd simply buy any of the ILF risers available, wouldn't you? there's nothing intrinsically "better" about the Formula riser. if the Border limbs work well in the Formula riser then it demonstrates that there's no basis for the much vaunted riser-and-limbs-are-a-system theory.



> Just give this idea away. You undermine your overwhelmingly logical arguments with this ridiculous hysteria and hate seeing your destroy your own credibility. You are much better than this, Scott. Please re-examine this idea logically and you'll see that it has no grounds for justification.


sorry Andy, but what I object to is all the hype and mystique surrounding the concept. the Formula system is no different to an ILF pocket in function. there's a bolt that holds the root of the limb and a bridge the limb is stressed over. an ILF pocket does precisely the same thing. the Formula riser has some material removed from under the two contact points of the pocket to make it look cool, that's all - and in the process an incompatible limb pocket has been created.

(yes, I know there is a small amount of flex in the pocket system. that's a function of removing material between the limb bolt and bridge. it's hardly the invention of the century.)



> The simple reason that manufacturers don't recommend mixing and matching limbs is that there is no standard. If you have problems with a single manufacturer, it's a simple warranty claim. If it's not a single manufacturer, it's by definition, the consumers problem. No manufacturer warranties their product as being interchangeable with other manufacturers when there is a non standard interface.


I agree about the warranty, sure. if you want to mix and match ILF components from different companies, then go right ahead if you don't mind voiding the warranty. I don't think that would stop most people in a heartbeat. the majority of archers I know upgrade limbs here and there, maybe grab a nice riser if one comes up for sale. not often do people go out and buy a whole new recurve.

but there most definitely is a perfectly interoperable standard, and its called ILF. the fact that Hoyt doesn't like or acknowledge it doesn't affect the fact that it exists. I'm not getting into the whole intellectual property argument (actually I agree with you there, but that's something Hoyt should be settling legally), just pointing out that the standard exists and works for every other manufacturer in the world just fine.


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## whiz-Oz (Jul 19, 2007)

It's only true that you have a prejudice. 
The mere fact that if you choose to buy anything that is integral as a whole is testament to that fact that you WANT to buy it. 
Your entire argument hinges around something that I can't find an example of ANYWHERE in the rest of the world. Border make a competition recurve that isn't "ILF" and so does another small UK manufacturer that I can't recall at present. 

So your Hoyt prejudice must be aimed at those manufacturers as well. 
If you do not, then the only logical conclusion is that your argument is unreasonable because you only choose one particular manufacturer. Your argument also covers the others. 

Mind you, your argument also covers most things anyway. You can't run android on an iphone (yet) so you must damn Apple. 

You can buy conversion kits to put "ILF" limbs on a Formula riser. I'm not seeing evidence of them being incredibly popular, so I put it to you that it's evidence that people who would seem to support your argument with their money, don't exist. 

You can only fit Ferrari parts onto a Ferrari. That's supported by a conventional retail model. 
Sure, you can whack a Keith Black Big Block in it, but people can also put whatever limbs they're prepared to personally manufacture in any bow they want, should they be prepared to do so. 

A one piece bow of any sort is by definition an integrated design and you have absolutely no choice of limb. This by absolutes must also fall under your "locked in to using a single manufacturers limbs" argument. You're not pointing fingers there. 

And as for the "riser and limbs aren't a system theory". Quite simply, the design aspects of the formula limb use a feature that isn't as available in an "ILF" limb. 
Sure, the force is there, but it's not being used. If you can make more of your limb work, rather than just being a mounting system, why not? That the Border limbs "worked" means that they possibly utilised the same phenomenon. (Nobody appears to have taken to them with a vernier caliper). As the limb doesn't bend back into the cut out, it's an aesthetic thing anyway. It could be done away with. 

Every year, manufacturers of all sorts of products bring out new and improved models of whatever. In order to advance, backwards compatibility must be sacrificed. Complaining that the Formula system isn't backwards compatible is like complaining that you can't hitch your horse up to your Humvee or you can't put film into a digital camera. 

And as for "ILF" being a standard, how many people complain about real standards being incompatible. How many RJ-45 plugs have you found that don't fit perfectly if they're intact? How many AA batteries have you ever heard of that don't fit into an AA battery requiring device? How many CD ROM's have you found that don't fit? 
Real standards have published specifications. 
"ILF" just happened to be used. 
How many people have issues with limbs being sloppy or too tight? That we have any threads about it at all means that there is no effective specified, ratified standard. 

If Hoyt really wanted to force people into using only their limbs, they would immediately drop all "ILF" riser and limb production and only offer Paralever setups. 
Then they'd agressively prosecute anyone who made limbs that fitted their new risers. 

And that hasn't happened. 
I present this all as evidence that your assertions are invalid.


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## zal (May 1, 2007)

Hoyt is the only manufacturer that tries to sell both limbs and riser as a system, others are quite happy to sell them as individual pieces. Of course it is a marketing issue, as it's very easy way to boost sales. It's not the first time, but at least axis hardware allowed other limbs to be adapted for use.

Fact is that other manufacturers are really getting far ahead in development, there haven't been any real new inventions in metal risers after radian, and some manufactures have pushed limbs a lot further too. You start seeing national teams from even very traditional hoyt countries shifting to use other equipment, and that should tell something.

Edit: to stick with the original post: I've always have used mixed riser and limbs, only once I had both from same manufacturer. In the past few years I've been through 7 risers (2x Hoyt, 2x W&W, 1x Samick, 1x Merlin, 1x Spigarelli) and 8 pairs of limbs (1x Hoyt, 3x W&W, 2x Border, 1x Samick and 1x MK Korea) and I have NEVER had ANY problems with combinations of any of the above. Some fits are tight, some are loose (which, as I heard, was the preferred way of Earl Hoyt jr.) but all fitted and all shot well.


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## caspian (Jan 13, 2009)

whiz-Oz said:


> You can buy conversion kits to put "ILF" limbs on a Formula riser. I'm not seeing evidence of them being incredibly popular, so I put it to you that it's evidence that people who would seem to support your argument with their money, don't exist.


I'd say they just bought an ILF riser to begin with? I don't know why anyone would go and buy a Formula riser just so you can fit conversion kits to it.



> Every year, manufacturers of all sorts of products bring out new and improved models of whatever. In order to advance, backwards compatibility must be sacrificed. Complaining that the Formula system isn't backwards compatible is like complaining that you can't hitch your horse up to your Humvee or you can't put film into a digital camera.


I'd accept that if the Formula system did anything substantive over ILF, which it doesn't. there's no benefit to the user, only the downside of incompatibility, unless you're also buying new limbs and are happy with Formula limbs.



> And as for "ILF" being a standard, how many people complain about real standards being incompatible. How many RJ-45 plugs have you found that don't fit perfectly if they're intact? How many AA batteries have you ever heard of that don't fit into an AA battery requiring device? How many CD ROM's have you found that don't fit?


how many ILF limbs have you heard of that don't work fine in an off-branded riser? barring cheap crap and manufacturing faults, which is distinct from a design flaw, not many. yes, I'm sure that you could find a thread or two if you looked. however, considering the amount of equipment out there, I'd say the success rate would be sufficiently close to perfect that it's not a factor for serious consideration.



> Real standards have published specifications. "ILF" just happened to be used.


the fact that it's not documented to ISO standard doesn't mean there isn't a standard that everyone understands perfectly well. the fact that every other manufacturer in the world makes perfectly workable ILF equipment would seem to demonstrate this quite adequately. I'm sitting here updating my iPhone in an aftermarket cradle with a non-genuine cable, and after that I'll be loading some TV onto it with aftermarket software. it all seems to work OK to me.



> If Hoyt really wanted to force people into using only their limbs, they would immediately drop all "ILF" riser and limb production and only offer Paralever setups. Then they'd agressively prosecute anyone who made limbs that fitted their new risers.


the former will be along in a year or so, I expect. :wink: and as for the latter, the fact that they haven't done anything about every other manufacturer using their original ILF standard suggests... that they can't.


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## whiz-Oz (Jul 19, 2007)

caspian said:


> I'd accept that if the Formula system did anything substantive over ILF, which it doesn't. there's no benefit to the user, only the downside of incompatibility, unless you're also buying new limbs and are happy with Formula limbs.


And seeing as there is virtually no alternative to buying a Formula without Hoyt limbs, then you must also agree to being happy with the limbs. Otherwise you wouldn't buy it. As it's virtually impossible at this point to try Border limbs without purchasing them, essentially, you have no option other to hope that you're happy with anything alternative. 

As nobody would buy a Formula RX riser just so that they can put conversion kits on it, people wouldn't buy an entire assembly that they're unhappy with. So by your admission alone, the people who you claim would be "locked into" Hoyt limbs, don't actually exist..

So you're not actually locked into Hoyt limbs because you've bought into a system. 
As you have virtually NO option for anything else, you can't complain about not liking it or basing it as a source of experimentation. You have no alternatives.
So you wouldn't buy just a riser. So there's no locking in

And as Hoyt have actually added more than they've taken away from their product line since the introduction of the paralever limb system, you actually have more choice in the market place. 

Regardless of your arguments, the marketplace has already spoken. It appears that the Formula RX has sold in greater numbers in a shorter time than any other recurve released by Hoyt and has penetrated the shooting lines and winners podiums at an awful lot of competitions. 
Sure, there are people who have sold on and returned to their old or other bows. I've seen nobody complaining about how they want to put alternative limbs on. 
I've seen no claims, even secondhand, that someone decided that they wanted to put any other manufacturers limbs on. And lets face it, anything from another manufacturer would be an unknown quality as it would be different in construction. 

So I tend my interpretation as evidence that people don't care that much about being "locked in to only using Hoyt Limbs" because they seem to be buying this system enough to consider it a commercial success. This undermines your argument on an economic and logical basis. 

I could counter my observations of the success of the Formula RX in being evident at major shoots with the lack of identifiable TF-Apecs. I just haven't seen many being used and they were top of the line from W&W. Now people everywhere seem particularly vocal in their love of W&W limbs, but comparatively few people in the western world have availed themselves of the latest W&W offering, which when seen, is always paired with their top of the line limbs. 


Why is that the TF-Apecs isn't seen much and now the Inno-CXT grabbs the W&W fans?


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## zal (May 1, 2007)

Andy, you must remember that you are living in a country where Hoyt has really dominant market position. It's very different case in large target archery countries, like Italy and France.

Here, you don't see that many formulas, but GMX's are still plenty. W&W dominates the market here, and more so in southern Europe.


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## Joe T (Apr 5, 2003)

Have seen a couple of instances of major incompatibility between limb and riser. In one case an archer with a Hoyt Elan purchased some new limbs, Hoyt G3. The limbs were badly damaged in short order. Problem was the limbs were bridging over the end of the riser, and the end of the Elan being very sharp just chewed it's way through the limbs. Came across some old Gold Medallist limbs and found the cotton reel was too wide to fit a modern riser. In both cases the problem was not related to the make but too the design period. Compatibility issues are as likely to occur between limbs and risers from the same manufacturer as with different manufacturers.

People buy risers based on looks and price. There is no practical difference between performance, though obviously the various manufacturers' sales reps try to convince you there is. Having said that some risers have historically achieved iconic status; Gold Medallist, Radian, Axis, Samick Masters. For the iconic riser of this decade my money would go on the Win Win CXT, interesting if so as it would be the first non metal handle.


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## whiz-Oz (Jul 19, 2007)

zal said:


> Andy, you must remember that you are living in a country where Hoyt has really dominant market position. It's very different case in large target archery countries, like Italy and France.
> 
> Here, you don't see that many formulas, but GMX's are still plenty. W&W dominates the market here, and more so in southern Europe.


Yes. But I've been looking at International competition photos. I rarely see the APEC risers This puzzles me as I can't see any logical reason for it.


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## zal (May 1, 2007)

Most archers at those games are sponsored. So price, availability and customer service mean little or nothing to them.

Apecs was clearly a technical showcase just like Xpert was before that, not to forget that Justina Mospinek has been very successful with one. They have their fans but larger public wants something else. Just like Axis was, as no-one bought it at the first place, everyone wanted Avalon. Only after a while it got its cult status.

Also, they got bad rep with the first ones, as they had a lot of troubles. But every manufacturer has those, like Hoyt had with 900 limbs (they disappeared pretty quickly too...).


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## Borderbows (Apr 4, 2009)

Joe T said:


> Have seen a couple of instances of major incompatibility between limb and riser. In one case an archer with a Hoyt Elan purchased some new limbs, Hoyt G3. The limbs were badly damaged in short order. Problem was the limbs were bridging over the end of the riser, and the end of the Elan being very sharp just chewed it's way through the limbs. Came across some old Gold Medallist limbs and found the cotton reel was too wide to fit a modern riser. In both cases the problem was not related to the make but too the design period. Compatibility issues are as likely to occur between limbs and risers from the same manufacturer as with different manufacturers.
> 
> People buy risers based on looks and price. There is no practical difference between performance, though obviously the various manufacturers' sales reps try to convince you there is. Having said that some risers have historically achieved iconic status; Gold Medallist, Radian, Axis, Samick Masters. For the iconic riser of this decade my money would go on the Win Win CXT, interesting if so as it would be the first non metal handle.


best post of the thread.

We have a small catalogue of bad machening even from the "best" makers. Where tool paths are evident, and in some cases where the alignment design, had swarf in it, and prevented correct seating of the limb.

I have a couple of photos on my phone that show, even TOP end risers are not to exact tollerances. (0.3mm of difference between top and bottom limb pockets on the same riser)
No maker is safe here!

So how can ANY limb including "same period/Same maker" fit snugly when the dovetail slots were different sizes, while the riser was also rotationally out!

I really dont see any reason why the industry cant standardise on some base dimensions, for ILF, so that crappy manufacturing tollerances are identifiable and acountable.
ILF is accepted by the market base as swappable, yet the powers that be, squirm about hiding poor manufacture as "industry slop"

Shamefull that leading members of the industry boast great machining standards, yet wont help customers identfy the BAD guys in the industry. What are the good guys hiding??? are they just as bad as the bad guys?

The archery comunity know this is a swappable "unspoken" standard. so whats the deal in being a leader in the industry and laying down standards?


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## Hank D Thoreau (Dec 9, 2008)

Let's not forget that the original question is about getting a competition barebow riser. For this all risers are not the same. Some risers such as Bernardini, Spigarelli and Best are designed to balance when shooting barebow. Conventional risers are not. You can make some conventional risers work if you add enough weight, such as the PSE Intrepid. Or you can catch a conventional riser with you fingers before the limbs hit you in the head (I use this technique when shooting NFAA traditional recurve). I have not heard of any incompatibility issues expressed for the above mentioned barebow risers which are all extremely well manufactured. As far as Hoyt paralever is concerned, I know one barebow shooter using it ('cause it was the newest thing going). There is no advantage to it for barebow so it is not germane to the original question. Do we feel that we have Matterhorn's original quesiton adequately covered? If so, let the debate continue for non-barebow shooters.


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## whiz-Oz (Jul 19, 2007)

Borderbows said:


> The archery comunity know this is a swappable "unspoken" standard. so whats the deal in being a leader in the industry and laying down standards?


No. The archery community have the option to swap limbs due to the choice of copying the system Hoyt used. The Korean manufacturers were the first to do it and then everyone else followed. 
Deal with it. 
It's not a standard. It's merely a convenience that some people feel that they're obviously entitled to, yet is an example of something that happens nowhere else. 
If it was a swappable unspoken standard, then there wouldn't be any problems. But there are. Anyone calling it a standard has no idea what a standard is. A "De facto" standard, isn't a standard. It's just something that everyone uses. Standards have specifications and tolerances. "ILF" doesn't. It's all beer and skittles while everything works and then it's complaints when it doesn't fit together like you hoped.


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## caspian (Jan 13, 2009)

whiz-Oz said:


> No. The archery community have the option to swap limbs due to the choice of copying the system Hoyt used. The Korean manufacturers were the first to do it and then everyone else followed.
> Deal with it.


the community has, and has embraced the standard. the community isn't the one having the acceptance problem. 



> It's not a standard. It's merely a convenience that some people feel that they're obviously entitled to, yet is an example of something that happens nowhere else.
> If it was a swappable unspoken standard, then there wouldn't be any problems. But there are. Anyone calling it a standard has no idea what a standard is. A "De facto" standard, isn't a standard. It's just something that everyone uses. Standards have specifications and tolerances. "ILF" doesn't. It's all beer and skittles while everything works and then it's complaints when it doesn't fit together like you hoped.


standards are something everyone adheres to. documentation is irrelevant. the industry has proven this for many years, otherwise ILF wouldn't work - as it does.

you need to get over this one, Andy. Hoyt has chosen to move away from a de facto standard to a new form factor. the fact that they pioneered that standard doesn't change that fact. people don't like changes in form factor, as the reality is that it restricts their choices and costs them money.


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## whiz-Oz (Jul 19, 2007)

I don't have a problem with it at all. I have a problem with people's definition of a standard. Say what you want about archery, but you can't just call something a standard because you think it is. 
And if you're defining "moving away" then Hoyt wouldn't be still making HDS risers and limbs as well as paralever. 
And HDS isn't a standard either. It's their own system.
You still maintain that an increase in options is somehow a restriction. 
Logically, economically and industrially, you can't find any other examples to back up what you're saying.


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## ArtV (Jan 29, 2008)

Boy, did you guys steal this thread...hissy hissy. If you don't like Hoyt..here's a clue..don't buy one.


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## Borderbows (Apr 4, 2009)

whiz-Oz said:


> No. The archery community have the option to swap limbs due to the choice of copying the system Hoyt used. The Korean manufacturers were the first to do it and then everyone else followed.
> Deal with it.
> It's not a standard. It's merely a convenience that some people feel that they're obviously entitled to, yet is an example of something that happens nowhere else.
> If it was a swappable unspoken standard, then there wouldn't be any problems. But there are. Anyone calling it a standard has no idea what a standard is. A "De facto" standard, isn't a standard. It's just something that everyone uses. Standards have specifications and tolerances. "ILF" doesn't. It's all beer and skittles while everything works and then it's complaints when it doesn't fit together like you hoped.


When was the first korean "copy" on the market?
Not sure about your Korean coment...
we made limbs for the HOYT TD2, TD3 and the First of the ILF's. we are not slow to make our limb fit another riser. And its not that hard when they all have the same geometry, give or take 1/8"
We also made limbs to fit Yamaha, Stylist, And our "Olympic Dream" was the first WARF bow besed on a compound handle.
Afterall, we have always said, HOYT must be our most reluctant but best business partner. good risers mated with great limbs!
PMS/E-ILF/M-ILF, makes no odds to us... a shift in bolt position doesnt make a great bow. it is just a different bolt position afterall...

It just seems silly when the market wants/Likes/Adopts/demands/asks/buys/aspires to a swappable ILF system, even to the point where alot of people think its a standard, and asks why its not when the are shown its not, so why be petty by not making it a "standard" instead of causing confusion in the market... afterall, if the product is better than the rest, then you dont want/need confusion... as the clarity would sell your bow more???

This uringating contest of "Its a copy" is old news... its still a standard that people/archers want, and the industry's most marketted company is not really helping the industry by not being "the daddy" and leading the way?
If you want to lead the way, then stand up and be a leader?
Afterall Eastons boss is/has been Chairman of the IOC, and head of FITA? so if your managing the market place, though the competition rules, then step up the the plate...
instead they hide behind different limb fittings, Axis being one... Afterall its not hard to make a good limb, WE do... a company the size of hoyt should be able to aswell???
Or Make us an offer...we will do their R&D?

Hoyt give more away than we turn over...


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## caspian (Jan 13, 2009)

ArtV said:


> If you don't like Hoyt..here's a clue..don't buy one.


done!


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## SHADOW-MKII (Feb 19, 2009)

Borderbows said:


> Afterall its not hard to make a good limb, WE do... a company the size of hoyt should be able to aswell??


Their is a whole bunch of people that believe that Hoyt does make good limbs. ( I am one of them and I currently shoot W&W) 

Who is saying with unbiased opinion that they don't?


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## Greysides (Jun 10, 2009)

SHADOW-MKII said:


> Their is a whole bunch of people that believe that Hoyt does make good limbs. ( I am one of them and I currently shoot W&W)
> 
> Who is saying with unbiased opinion that they don't?



Quote Originally Posted by Borderbows:

Afterall its not hard to make a good limb, WE do... a company the size of hoyt should be able to aswell??


I think that's a size comparison rather than elsewhat.


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## caspian (Jan 13, 2009)

SHADOW-MKII said:


> Who is saying with unbiased opinion that they don't?


I think Hoyt make excellent limbs. it's their attempt at locking the consumer into their own proprietary-but-otherwise-of-no-benefit mounting system that's objectionable.


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## straat (Jan 22, 2009)

Yes completely locking the customer in. Let's just forget the customer has a choice and is able to choose one of the many ILF bows they also offer. 

Customers are locking themselves in by choosing Formula.


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## Borderbows (Apr 4, 2009)

SHADOW-MKII said:


> Their is a whole bunch of people that believe that Hoyt does make good limbs. ( I am one of them and I currently shoot W&W)
> 
> Who is saying with unbiased opinion that they don't?


Gtek (if he is who he quotes himself to be on AIUK) declined a limb challenge, our cheapest vs his best, I said i dont think there would be a area we wouldnt win at.
His silence was challenged, and i asked for a 3rd time that with a continued silence, then he admits defeat and we could advertise this fact... to which i got scilence.
He posted on another thread a couple of days later... so he still uses the forum.

Price for price, i think Kaya, Samick, and W&W make a better limb, from our investigations and from archers feed back that we get here.

if you want your limb to look good, pitch it against a G3... Speed, Smoothness, stability... even cheaper limbs look good...

I think there are a whole bunch of people that are too new to the sport to know a good limb if it bit them on the bum, but will divulge the marketting info verbatum, which i must admit looks fab, one area we are absolutly hidious at!
Hoyt dont make BAD limbs, they are just not up there with the rest of the limbs in the price range in terms of performance...
Most of the Guys that look for limb performance are the guys over in tradtalk. They Chrono everything... And these guys mostly quote Winex to be the limb to have... either that or some form of Korean limbs... 
And i dare say, the Koreans dont do bad at 70-90meters. So accuracy isnt a problem either.
They have the chrono for speed, and the koreans to show stability
Its rare you see a recomendation from the Hoyt stable over on that forum..


To me this speaks volumes.
Speed, Stability and smoothness are attributes of a good limb... and they are all quantifiable.
Is there a compairson of the GMX TX990 25" 70" vs Formula RX F4 27" 70" in terms of a DFC... Then we would find out of the RX is smoother? Shorter limbs means it shouldnt be. but i'll gladly stand corrected...


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## ArtV (Jan 29, 2008)

SHADOW-MKII said:


> Their is a whole bunch of people that believe that Hoyt does make good limbs. ( I am one of them and I currently shoot W&W)
> 
> Who is saying with unbiased opinion that they don't?


I was under the impression that Hoyt had there limbs built in Korea...do they actually manufacture their own limbs??


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## ArtV (Jan 29, 2008)

From a business standpoint. I think it's stupid to make a riser that will accept other manufacturers limbs. The limbs are what carry all the advertising...so, shooting a Hoyt riser with W&W limbs kind of defeats the company's purpose of being as profitable as possible. The new limb/riser design may prove to be a real winner in Elite shooting, if so, then many of the Worlds top shooters will gravitate to the new design solely owned by Hoyt. This is good business whether some disagree or not. Fortunately they can paten the design...so, if it proves to be successful, it will take a while for the Koreans, chinese, japanese to copy it. Of course, they will probably still steal it an make "knock-offs" of the design, as they do with most other successful designs/technology.
Art


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## whiz-Oz (Jul 19, 2007)

Borderbows said:


> Its rare you see a recomendation from the Hoyt stable over on that forum..
> To me this speaks volumes.
> ...


 I've never seen or heard of Border limbs even featuring in a line up at any World's Or Olympic Games. Much less the winners podium. 
This to me also speaks volumes.


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## Joe T (Apr 5, 2003)

_Gtek (if he is who he quotes himself to be on AIUK) declined a limb challenge, our cheapest vs his best, I said i dont think there would be a area we wouldnt win at.His silence was challenged, and i asked for a 3rd time that with a continued silence, then he admits defeat and we could advertise this fact... to which i got scilence._

Hoyt has a large marketing budget, Border not. So in any comparative test Hoyt has nothing to gain everything to lose and Border everything to gain and nothing to lose. So Gtek declining your challenge is the sensible option - *and has nothing to do with relative merits of limbs.*


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## Borderbows (Apr 4, 2009)

whiz-Oz said:


> I've never seen or heard of Border limbs even featuring in a line up at any World's Or Olympic Games. Much less the winners podium.
> This to me also speaks volumes.


Michele Frangilli set a world record with our limbs
Granted, some time ago, but we do hold a fair number of national records where sponsership isnt the main influence in what bow you shoot.
considering we make about 1000-1400 bows a year, and 300 odd are longbows, and 400 are field recurves...mmm no wonder we dont give away bows to top shots at top events... we have a back log of orders without their help...
backlog of orders in a recession, and no marketting and a duff out of date website...(we are working on this bit)
Where do these orders come from??
Makes you wonder how from 3 orders on Austraila to last year, and 7 orders in the last 6months means we are growing in the land down under... While we have just turned down a dealer in Japan, in favour of another.... we have never had these oppertunities before... but we do now, without the help of top honours, so why give bows to folks that have other offers that we cant compete with?
Oh,
Chery Lyne did ok out in Austrailia? (just thought id choose one on your own back door??? ;-) )
Quote from Chery...
------------------------------------------------
Sydney World Masters Games 
Just back from the World Masters:

Silver in Field (first competition)
Bronze outdoor FITA (in 70km winds!)
Bronze Indoor
Gold Australian Clout (never done that before - great fun, though)

That was with a set of HexV-H mark I. 

However, I've been welcomed back with mark IIs and am loving them. Unbelievably quiet, I'm getting 214fps with 44lbs, 30.5" draw length, 570 ACEs with full weight points. They should be two spines too weak but tune spot on and I can shoot 100yds on a full 12" sight extension.

Not bad for a girlie.

Thanks to all at Border! 

------------------------------------

Whiz-oz, just because you havent heard of it, doesnt mean it doesnt happen...


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## Borderbows (Apr 4, 2009)

Joe T said:


> _Gtek (if he is who he quotes himself to be on AIUK) declined a limb challenge, our cheapest vs his best, I said i dont think there would be a area we wouldnt win at.His silence was challenged, and i asked for a 3rd time that with a continued silence, then he admits defeat and we could advertise this fact... to which i got scilence._
> 
> Hoyt has a large marketing budget, Border not. So in any comparative test Hoyt has nothing to gain everything to lose and Border everything to gain and nothing to lose. So Gtek declining your challenge is the sensible option - *and has nothing to do with relative merits of limbs.*


The challenge came about due to a condisending inference that we were a garage bowyer, to which i asked him if he had confidence in his bows by way of a challenge, this little garage bowyer would challenge him... To that note the challenge is valid. If George is confident enough to belittle us on a forum, then he should be confident that his TOP product should pat our little behinds off to bed????
To which he wasnt.... our worst against his best... that should work??? no?
Afterall His R&D budget and access to top feedback should outstrip our abilities.
He does have everything in his favour...

(sorry to the OP for the off topic)


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## whiz-Oz (Jul 19, 2007)

Still no Worlds or Olympics. And Mr Frangilli seems to be using something else now.... 
Something not happening significantly affects anyone's ability to know about it. 
When winning really counts, the products that make a significant difference rise to the top and stay there. 
I see archers at the top circulate in and out of the top positions while they're competing to win. 
I don't see any of your limbs.


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## zal (May 1, 2007)

Was it 25m which is still the current record iirc? Didn't he also win indoor world championships that year, plus was first in qualifications at outdoor world champs with 1353? Not sure if he still used them at that point as he was already W&W staff shooter next year in european champs in Finland.


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## caspian (Jan 13, 2009)

whiz-Oz said:


> When winning really counts, the products that make a significant difference rise to the top and stay there.


top archers would win with any quality product. from among that pool, they're going to shoot what they are paid and/or sponsored to shoot. formula isn't a bad system from a performance point of view, so it wins if shot by top archers. nobody is debating that, simply that it's unnecessary. 



> I don't see any of your limbs.


because he can't afford the sponsorship of Hoyt.


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## whiz-Oz (Jul 19, 2007)

Seems like I've heard that argument before. And if it's true, then it infers that Border limbs offer no competitive advantage because top archers can afford to shoot inferior products because winning is worth more to them in contingency money. Hmm. Bit of a paradox there. Samick, Hoyt and Win&Win are inferior, but everyone cares more about money than winning, if Sid is correct. 
So what we can draw from that conclusion is that limbs really don't make any difference to top archers. If that's the case, then they won't make any difference to any archers. 
Anyone care to argue that one? Lets get that unmeasurable feature called "forgiveness" out and try and use that for an argument. 

That which can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without consideration.


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## Borderbows (Apr 4, 2009)

whiz-Oz said:


> Seems like I've heard that argument before. And if it's true, then it infers that Border limbs offer no competitive advantage because top archers can afford to shoot inferior products because winning is worth more to them in contingency money. Hmm. Bit of a paradox there. Samick, Hoyt and Win&Win are inferior, but everyone cares more about money than winning, if Sid is correct.
> So what we can draw from that conclusion is that limbs really don't make any difference to top archers. If that's the case, then they won't make any difference to any archers.
> Anyone care to argue that one? Lets get that unmeasurable feature called "forgiveness" out and try and use that for an argument.
> 
> That which can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without consideration.


Im sure ease through the clicker, that little bit extra speed is one HELL of an advantage to almost every archer out there.
For example 1.7lbs gained in that last inch is going to feel good compaired to 2.1lbs... 
Feeling good about your draw cycle must be a bonus... as its going to make you want to draw your bow time and time again. that smile we see is fantastic... that realisation that our customers have, is just great to watch.
If you want the usual, buy the usual, and get the usual.
If you want something thats not 1960s technology with a twist of modern materials then you are quite clearly open to choose so.
Earl Hoyt knew about bow design with the materials of the day. SKY and HOYT have had a fantastic reputation based on that Knowledge. BUT its glass based...
Here is a quote that im sure you will appreciate... Smooth is nice to have..
http://www.archery-interchange.net/f127/hex5-limbs-very-smooth-34137/

here is another on "shootability" 
______________________________________

I shot a 25m FITA Star this weekend. Success and disaster! The national record for veterans was 565 (mine) and the World Masters record was (and is) 568. I needed 29 in the last end for 569, but ended up with three good nines. New national record, but the WR will have to wait another year, 25m FITA Star competitions are not very common.

Claes
Border HEX5W mkII 32#@30"
Fiberbow with modded pockets
Homebrew stab set
Homebrew sight
Mirror, no clicker
Beiter button
Homebrew tab with Oberon 
_____________________

Danilo5T
On January 2010 I made the new indoor italian record (master) 12 arrows final match with 117 points. (the european master record is also 117).
Thanks to my HEX5 and of course to Border Archery

_______________________________________

Greek Outdoor Cup 2009 
a year before I bought a pair of limbs from you, the first Borders (and only one?) in Greece. 
now I have a cup (3th position,106-99 bronze final) with them! thanks a lot!

my set up: 
Border 68" Hex4 W 40#, tiller +3, b.height 8 & 1/2" 
Samick Master 25" 
button Beiter 
string 452X, 22 thread, serving Halo 19" 
arrow Carbon Express Nano XR 580 110grain point. 
CarbonFast stabilizers 
sight Shibuya Optima

Miltos Rigopoulos

So yeah, we are supporting archers who are doing our little bit for archery!

then again, we only make 300 odd pairs of target limbs a year so for our little 300 we punch quite hard i would have thought!

We also have :
Hi Border

I recently became the New Field World Champion in the Junior male recurve division. I used a set of Hex 5 H Limbs 66' 38# with a Win&Win Inno CXT Riser.
I managed to shoot consistently during the 5 days of competition, averaging a score of 480.The World Field was held in Dahn, Germany from the 2nd to 7th of August.
Thanx Border for the best Limbs on the Planet. Keep up the good work!!!
:arc:



















So getting back to the original thread...
Read the kit list!
any limb on any riser can get you scores...

oh and Whiz-oz.. i thought id select the ones that didnt have a hoyt riser in them... just for the fun of it.
You asked for World status poduim place... i gave you one in your back yard.
You asked for a reason why we are who we are... i have given you some.... and i hope ive managed to keep the Disimilar riser/limb thread topic.
Im answering you as best i can... you can throw arguements at us, and we will thow local/relevant answers back...
i hope you appreciate the proximmity to home and relevance of the answers...


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## Borderbows (Apr 4, 2009)

whiz-Oz said:


> Still no Worlds or Olympics. And Mr Frangilli seems to be using something else now....
> Something not happening significantly affects anyone's ability to know about it.
> When winning really counts, the products that make a significant difference rise to the top and stay there.
> I see archers at the top circulate in and out of the top positions while they're competing to win.
> I don't see any of your limbs.


Is that not daft...
Mr Frangilli got a world record... does that not stand above a medal??? WORLD RECORD>>>
Also... Mr Ruban, Did well with the Inno at the last Olyimpics.
You you saying that The Inno is not a good bow because he swapped, he did win the medal with it...?
you know your self thats a daft arguement.

You know fine well that out of this debate, the only thing that counts when it comes to the choice of kit is the spec of the kit... and not the size of the wallet that pays for the names to shoot it??? 
If Hoyt kit was the best then why does the Hoyt Pro staff page have more archers in it than your average club? Buy the results as the bow doesnt command its own respect??? you have to wonder?
All our references quoted all payed full price for thier gear! there achivements are done though there own knowledge and choice. They achieved this with comercially available gear and comercially available coaching... WHILE RUNNING THERE OWN lives. not PRO archers. If you paid them to shoot 24/7 with top national level coaching, then we might also see the accolades your asking for.
Afterall the FITA WORLD CUP FINAL here in Edinburgh represented archery... it really did. The archery adverts were clear and evident who pays the cheques.
The TOTAL archery representation at this so called WORLD CUP were HOYT/Easton, Danage targets and *not a single other manufacturer*. even the camera guys had HOYT on the lens hoods of their cameras. The Large screen only showed the HOYT/ Easton adverts and not a single other advert, So yeah, real market forces there... It was a HOYT/EASTON corporate marketting splash payed for by FITA and Archery GB and the British tax payer! 
The only level playing field at these so called WORLD/Olyimpic events are on, would be the grass the archers stand on, under european law this market domenation by finanical might could be regarded as Illegal. 
i mean, bowtech... mathews... W&W... are they not keen to get adverts at the FITA world cup final??? cunning....
We are looking at getting a petition together from the other European bow manufacturers to see if there is a feeling of unfair trading practice.


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## Borderbows (Apr 4, 2009)

According to the web sites:
W&W - 22 staff archers
Samick - 8 staff archers
PSE - 10 target 19 hunting staff
Hoyt -43 recurves target, 91 compound target, 37 hunters
Border - 0

Hoyt might be +/- 1 or 2 as i got bored and had to count it a few times...

but you see what i mean...
id hope if i owned more pro staff than almost the rest put together that id pick up alot of medals...

look at the achivements outside of pro-ville...
Heck... Hoyt have more pro recurve staff alone than we have dealers!
They have nearly 4X more pro recurve staff than we have STAFF in TOTAL!
And yet we still have poduim places, National records, and on the bow efficency stakes, FITA and NAA WORLD FLIGHT records.
We also have european World and European titles in field.


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## Borderbows (Apr 4, 2009)

http://www.newscientist.com/blogs/nstv/2010/12/robotic-robin-hood-archery-for-automatons.html

JoeT on another thread found our new Pro staff member... No need for forgiving bows too...

This guy rocks... He only needs a one off payment and doesnt get stropy!

NOW Hoyt's Worried... :-D


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## Matterhorn (Mar 27, 2010)

Borderbows...

"Sorry to the OP for the off topic"...Don't be, I'm enjoying the debates. Just wonder how many of those posting comments are business owners with payrolls...and not to mention P&L's that they would rather not look at because of the markets.

I've heard people "talk" about R&D and then have witnessed those who actually "perform" R&D...and IMHO I can tell a manufacturer when I "hear" one talk about his/her product...and I hear it in your posts.

I'm going to be using Everest Pro Limbs on a WinAct Riser to start my Target archery endeavor...but, after I grow up a bit, I'll be more than happy to give you a call.


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## whiz-Oz (Jul 19, 2007)

Lots of posts Syd.
Plenty of manufacturers can claim world records. 
Still nobody using Border limbs in top end competitions where all other major manufacturers seem to be represented.
Now your volume of talk, talks volumes, but still doesn't give any answers.


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## Borderbows (Apr 4, 2009)

whiz-Oz said:


> Lots of posts Syd.
> Plenty of manufacturers can claim world records.
> Still nobody using Border limbs in top end competitions where all other major manufacturers seem to be represented.
> Now your volume of talk, talks volumes, but still doesn't give any answers.


I dont know which way these debates are going to go, so i handle each post as and when the arrive... but your handing this one to me...
As already stated, Target limb sales are the mainstay of our R&D. BUT they give us trickle down technology into our Mainstay of our products... FIELD bows... thats where we are bigger in the market.
Now when you look at Field bows we can start to quote a pile of different titles and world records.
We have made 2 world record attempts at flight 2004... and 2010.
in 2004 we took 6 FITA and NAA world distance flight records, not bad for a first attemp.. and in 2010 out of the 13 world records taken, we took 10 of them, Those are World records unpresidented distances in the respective categories. WHIZ... thats 11 gold and 1 silver... Target flight bow recurve and longbows clases...
We have European and World titles in both longbow and recurve, that easily span the last 13 years of our helm of this company. our latest longbow took 1st and 3rd in the NFAS national champs here in the UK this year.
The Harrier longbow has taken national championships in British, France, Spain, and our Griffon Longbow has taken Sweden, Denmark, European, World, in both at the european and world events we took both GENTS AND LADIES categories.
The Recurves have taken 2nd in the US nationals barebow. and our recurves are generally in the top 5 places in most european coutries.

Our crossbow prods last year via the croatian team came 1st in europe setting new records.
These are the ones we can remember... based on what we are told.
There are 2 ladies that have EVERY acheived Grand Master Flight Awards in the history of UK flight, and both were with Border Recurves... the amiazing thing is one acheived it with an Inno riser and standard Hex5 limbs with ACE arrows, and we hold the first every woman to shoot over 500 yards with a recurve... if i have my data correct.

Now...
The Gent who took most of these records made this comment...
BORDER BOWS HAVE HELD MORE WORLD FLIGHT RECORDS THAN ANY OTHER BOW MAKER IN MODERN DAY FLIGHT ARCHERY or since 1995.

now he also said that with this extra performance...
The 35lb Border Mirage 2004 limbs gave a 40yd distance spread at around 400yds,
372yds to 414yds and a 30yd width spread.

The new Mirage -H limbs gave a distance spread of 8yds, 404yds to 414yds and a hrizontal spread of only 6 yds, good clout shooting @ 400yds !! They are very stable limbs with great accuracy shot by a good archer.

________________
Now this is what a small company has achieved when sponsership does not meddle with the trophies... we are probably the only company that doesnt discount or, give bows away... thats why we are not on the top honours lists that you flaunt, as thats a biggest cheque wins position... which we know we cannot compete with... We dont have easton paying our way! its been bought out of our budget! its that simple!
Look at the rest of the stats in the board... we make 1000-1400 bows a year!
Now, we still stand fully behind the test offered to Gtek. When the paycheque cannot buy results, then our bows will stand tall and hold our pride intact, we are not scared of that fact!
Infact id be bold enough to say that we have a full spec, 17" riser'd ILF limb 60" bow that pulls quantifiably smoother than the HOYT RX 70" with F4 limbs. Now thats a DFC to drool over! opposed to the DFC's ive seen on Archery-Forum compairing the 25" to 27" RX that you posted. 60" bow that has medium standard ILF limbs of our making that beats a full size TOP spec target bow. Can you even imagine the energy storage of a preload bulge that prolonged...


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## whiz-Oz (Jul 19, 2007)

So what you're saying is, that in a small subsection of the sport of archery, where there are no other major manufacturers interested in playing, you do really well. Yet when it comes to world class accuracy, the bows don't matter because it's all about money. Yet in Korea, where the top performing archers can get pensions for life based on their successes, they don't bother to use your products which you continuously hype as superior. So even the top archers all agree with you Syd. In the world of FITA archery, your limbs don't offer any advantages. If they make no difference to the person who shoots a world record with them, he may as well go with a manufacturer who will give him contingency money. If force-draw curves meant everything, the world would be beating a path to your door. But to pay more money for limbs that don't feature in the most important archery competitions in the world, you may as well use the limbs from whichever manufacturer offers to give you extra money for winning. Interesting. That practically ensures that you'll never be taken seriously by any archers of real ability. If you put the effort in of blood, sweat and tears, you'll get a trophy. With the biggest brand name, you'll get a reasonable cheque. With Border limbs, you'll get absolutely nothing. Hell of an incentive plan. This is why your equipment will never see the podium in the big leagues. You offer no performance advantages to help winning archers and there are no secondary economic benefits either.


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## Borderbows (Apr 4, 2009)

whiz-Oz said:


> So what you're saying is, that in a small subsection of the sport of archery, where there are no other major manufacturers interested in playing, you do really well. Yet when it comes to world class accuracy, the bows don't matter because it's all about money. Yet in Korea, where the top performing archers can get pensions for life based on their successes, they don't bother to use your products which you continuously hype as superior. So even the top archers all agree with you Syd. In the world of FITA archery, your limbs don't offer any advantages. If they make no difference to the person who shoots a world record with them, he may as well go with a manufacturer who will give him contingency money. If force-draw curves meant everything, the world would be beating a path to your door. But to pay more money for limbs that don't feature in the most important archery competitions in the world, you may as well use the limbs from whichever manufacturer offers to give you extra money for winning. Interesting. That practically ensures that you'll never be taken seriously by any archers of real ability. If you put the effort in of blood, sweat and tears, you'll get a trophy. With the biggest brand name, you'll get a reasonable cheque. With Border limbs, you'll get absolutely nothing. Hell of an incentive plan. This is why your equipment will never see the podium in the big leagues. You offer no performance advantages to help winning archers and there are no secondary economic benefits either.


Do you see many Koreans shooting non-korean product? If so, you can see the reason for the pension... Government backed industrial work incentives...

We do offer an advantage to the archer that chooses our kit. We just dont offer it with a pay cheque... and we dont offer it for free You seem to have totally missed my point. Those people that choose there gear with thier own wages do well with our kit... when i say do well, I think you will find National records, style doing well. You seem to ignore all these achivements of archers that dont have pro-level coaching doing well in what is one of our smaller product areas.
You also seem to ignore the simple little fact that the in the areas that are more suited to us, we excel, especially for our size.
i DID say and will continue to say Form will out strip kit. but when form is equal... and ability is equal, then kit will help... what else would turn the tables on the HOYT Formula success stories when the Korean teams are included. YOU SEEM to want to go all pro hoyt on that matter, since they also have the most pro staff to drown out the simple fact that when form and ability are equal, what happens then. if you increase the volume of archers with top ability, then the chances are you will hit a poduim place increase hugely, Even a blind squirel can find a nut once in its life. BUT 400 blind squirrels will find a few more nuts... Im not saying Hoyt Pro achers are blind squirrels, but just look at the numbers game. And would you regard Martin, Bear, Samick to name a few in the Traditional subsections as non-big league players!!! come on WHIZ... there is more to archery than an ILF 
fitting.
Id love to know how many trad archers there were to target recurve??? Have you seen the SIZE of trad archery here in europe... competitions amost every second week with 300+ attendees... heck, here in britain there are 3 events with more than 250+ entrants that i know of. And your telling me that Target is the be all and end all of archery... I think you would be mistaken, since there is probably more product diversity in traditional, that these "big players" are not interested as much... since mass production doesnt suit diverse tastes...
And what you will also find is that in field archery there are more styles and types of archery due to freedom of market place in the competitive areana. there are Lots of different NON-FITA associations...to which HOYT, WIN&WIN dont do so well... so choose your arguement positions and that choice works both ways. Granted Target Archery is the IOC interest... BUT it would be... James L Easton. Look at his affiliations to Easton, HOYT, FITA and the IOC. http://www.olympic.org/en/content/The-IOC/Members/Mr-James-L-EASTON/

Cunning...

how many 250+ entrants do you get in a target competition? Target Archery gets more media hype thats all...

for your information, i think you will find that it was a border bow that kicked a HOYT off the distance records...at flight, so HOYT also compete in flight shooting.... to which they are a big player in FITA archer events for your records. I think it was Arlan Reynolds 2003 record...


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## whiz-Oz (Jul 19, 2007)

Nice try at trying to make it a Hoyt Vs Border discussion, but I have actually asked in regards to ALL manufacturers. 
And I didn't try and infer that target archery is all there is to archery. 
I asked a simple question. All three major archery forums display multiple evidence of your postings about your limbs being superior in topic areas that are concerned with target archery. This is where the question and the discussion is centered, yet you've taken quite well to dancing around the topic with explanations of how well you've done in other areas. And lets face it, National records are a nice cosy place to be if you happen to never want to play outside your Nation. 
All the alternatives in the world don't cover the fact that where the most organised, big money, most intense competition is for recurve target archery, these being the Olympics and the World Championships, your products don't feature. I think I did see an appearance in one World Cup, but I can't be certain. 
But while I think of it, I do believe that a younger manufacturer than Border HAS made an appearance at the upper echelons of archery competition. Kaya limbs seem to have quite a following. Even Mr Frangilli now seems to shoot them, but you can never tell what he's going to next. Weren't some recent FITA recurve world records set with limbs from reasonably new manufacturers? Only within the last six months, too I believe.

So it seems to me that you do an awful lot of spruiking about the gear that you manufacture, in the areas of the archery forums concerned with target archery. Sure, you have your supporters and you have some national records. Old and new Morgan sportscars also have their supporters and do quite well in niche areas. I just wouldn't park one over a known active termites nest. I also don't see them fielding F1 teams. But what I do see is you taking every possible opportunity to promote your products. You've already said that where skills are equal, kit offers advantages. You might as well have said archers that need all the help they can get should shoot your products. All the competent ones in the big competitions seems to be shooting Win&Win, Samick, Hoyt, Kaya or MK. I guess that they don't feel that they need help.


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## jmvargas (Oct 21, 2004)

hey whiz...have you actually tried shooting any borders limbs??..

....it's obvious you like hoyt which is your prerogative---- but have you actually made a recent side by side shooting comparison between the best limbs of both manufacturers??

....just wondering..


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## whiz-Oz (Jul 19, 2007)

Yes, as a matter of fact, I have. It's totally irrelevant what I think about them personally. It has nothing to do with the lack of appearance of them at major competitions. 
And me liking Hoyt has nothing to do with anything in this particular issue. I also like Win&Win and Samick. 

But please endeavour to try and distract the discussion away from the point I've made, because it's obvious that you can't explain it yourself, yet feel compelled to somehow join in.


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## jmvargas (Oct 21, 2004)

ha! i just saw this thread now and was just wondering if you really know what ur talking about..

....and if u really think it's irrelevant it's obvious ur in denial......again!!....


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## whiz-Oz (Jul 19, 2007)

jmvargas said:


> ha! i just saw this thread now and was just wondering if you really know what ur talking about..
> 
> ....and if u really think it's irrelevant it's obvious ur in denial......again!!....


Oh, right. You really should stop using terms that you don't understand. 
For instance, maybe you'd like to explain how you think that my opinion on limbs is relevant to Border limbs not being used in major competitions? 
Possibly spelling words properly, for extra points. 
Of course, you won't be able to do this, so I'll just illustrate your lack of comprehension by providing the first line of your reply. Your failure to use this will just confirm your inability. 
In fact, I'll map out your entire argument for you:

"Your opinion on border limbs is relevant to Border Limbs not being used at any major target archery event such as the Olympics or World championships because " (This is where you put your logical argument, or actually your illogical argument. I can't wait to see how you string this together, particularly because you don't know my opinion on Border limbs and I am the authority on how much influence I have over the equipment choices of the worlds top archers. Let me tell you now, it's pretty much the same amount as your ability to understand what this discussion has evolved into.)

"and in closing, this makes it obvious that you are in denial"

(After reading this, anyone should be convinced that you have logically stitched together my unknown opinion of Border limbs and it's logical consequence about them not being featured in competitions such as the Olympics or the World Championships. )

------------------------------------------------------

Now, what I will bet that you will do is realise that you typed before you thought. (again) and that maybe you should have stayed out of it because it's way over your head. Lets see how you come back to this one..


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## Borderbows (Apr 4, 2009)

You do fully understand the concept that if there are two manufacturers of washing up liquid with two brands of liquid each, sharing 50% of the market each... and one manufacturer comes up with a second brand... then the sales will be split 3 ways. but thats 66% to one manufactuer and 33% to the other, so it becomes a race to have the most brands, until there is the same 50-50 split but with 50 product ranges each... funny how these are all Korean companies...all taking a slice of the market. All taking a slice out of hoyt...

if there is nothing to be had in this quote taken from your link or Archery-forum about "open Book exams" on your personal Review of the RX
"The result is increased smoothness in the clicker zone and up to a _measured 4 FPS velocity advantage over any available recurve limb today._ (i have a bit of problem with this statement)

The sleek, redesigned limb tip increases strength and alignment accuracy and also adds to velocity through an adjustment in critical string leverage at full draw." 
Andy!'s quote
and the page you refere to

Then whats the advantage in going for the latest limbs... so if HOYT are selling there product based on impirical tests, then we should too...

You know fine well that the top guys are bought, and the top guys are out of our .We know that, you know that, all the readers know that, We have NO intention of even chasing that makert and your turning foolish if you think its wise for us to even go that way. As stated before... We have good sales... we have an order backlog, we are happy with our product performance and refuse to be bullied by way of "HAVE YOU ANY world Champ medals" We have them where it matters to us, and we have them where the archers are not bought! final and FACT. we dont have Government backing the way the Koreans do.
If HOYT sell on basic bow design principals, then we do to, and thats where we have the edge... Thats all ive said all along. Thats been my point all along.

NOW... id personally like to thank you for allowing us the time and place, to express our thoughts and ideas on the market place, where we sit and why we are not in poduim places at world champion legue events, as i think you have done us a world of favours...

A summary of this still stands... We are smoother, and faster, and more stable than the HOYT equivelent... we dont have the cash to buy top pro human Hooter shooters, but where this is not the case we punch above our weight, Our kit stand in very high regard in these areas.
If we could BUY a pro staff member, who would it be, and would it be enough to drown out the rest of the pro teams would proove hard, so in our books an entire waste of money for us. The only archer worth having is the BEST one. and they are not cheap... so we cant promote our products that way so in our view, we just *have* to make sure they are superiour in every other way we can... thats why we are faster, smoother, and more stable, because we need to be... and want to be
We need to be to combat your arguement... We need to have the confidence. since as you point out, we dont have the medals.

And this smoothenss, speed and stability, has helped NON-hootershooters, but very good real archers get to where they wanted to be.
That is where we stand. Where we make our market.


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## Paula (Sep 8, 2009)

I guess the big question here would be,,,,How many Olympic and World Cup Archers are given their equipment(please understand I realize you work extremely hard to get to this position),,and how many actually buy equipment to test and use.Hoyt is in the position to give lots away and so you would hope get more medals. On the other hand Borders does not give equipment away because they are not in the position to do so. I own an Eclipse riser and have shot Hoyt as well as Borders limbs on it. I love my Borders Limbs with my Eclipse riser.Everyone fines a combination that works for them.
Whiz-Oz has always been in my observations a Hoyt person and stands behind them,and Sid backs his product.You both make fine arguments,and give us good information. Thanks to both of you for being who you are,,,,,Happy Holidays Paula


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## lksseven (Mar 21, 2010)

Sometimes a good debate can never have a 'resolution', and is forever to be argued. Not always a bad thing (unless it's a debate with your neighbor over property lines or noise levels, or ANY debate with your wife - haha). Like a debate over greatest race horse ever, greatest college football team, greatest heavyweight fighter, etc. Always interesting, never resolved.

I have learned a LOT by this thread (lots of information, lots of passion in presenting it but argued coherently, mostly hehehe), and been entertained along the way. Thanks, guys.


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## whiz-Oz (Jul 19, 2007)

I'm always up for some entertainment. 
Sid has kept it together really well and hasn't lost it. Feel free to regard whoevers arguments as relevant as you like. 
It's interesting to see people's argument styles of misdirection, scatter gunning, emotive pleas and attempts at discrediting authors.
If you do some research into the various styles adopted (and this has been studied and documented) you'll learn what these styles indicate. 

A most interesting thing came to light during this. It is the real incentives that have come to light if you're a professional archer. As usual, there are more factors at stake when making money gets involved in what at first examination appears to be just an anomaly. 
As the Joker said; "If you’re good at something, never do it for free."
If you're going to spend the time training to be the best archer in the world, that's time you're not spending trying to develop your conventional earning potential. Pretty much all quality equipment you can buy these days will shoot perfect scores without archers being involved. That can and has been easily proven. Proving advantages past that when archers ARE involved doesn't involve hard evidence. So treat it with the doubt that it deserves.


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## Borderbows (Apr 4, 2009)

whiz-Oz said:


> I'm always up for some entertainment.
> Sid has kept it together really well and hasn't lost it. Feel free to regard whoevers arguments as relevant as you like.
> It's interesting to see people's argument styles of misdirection, scatter gunning, emotive pleas and attempts at discrediting authors.
> If you do some research into the various styles adopted (and this has been studied and documented) you'll learn what these styles indicate.


Arguement of misdirection...discreaditing, are you trying to misdirect and discredit me with this statement? 

Whiz-Oz.
Hoyt claim smoothness and speed, and stability.
We claim better levels of each. I siad this openly and with legal implications. I advertised it openly.
Now... why would i do that if i wasnt sure.
Why would i stand up and say... top archers get there kit for free, AND free kit to sell... (kind of mini dealers) that helps fund their coaching, and we can afford that. So its that simple, The coaching will get you better gains, BUT when the archer is equal, then the bow helps. And when 2 products are equal in price. why pick the lesser spec, when it doesnt come with the sponsership deal? afterall, 500-600 dollars is 500-600 dollars, you might as well pick the faster, smoother, and more stable!


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## whiz-Oz (Jul 19, 2007)

I didn't necessarily implicate you in terms of immediately apparent argument styles. 
We can go over this again if you like, but I'll just start cutting and pasting. Your products may or may not be superior technically, but realistically, it appears to make no difference in the big leagues of Fita recurve target archery.. 
Anyone who can read this forum can check that for themselves. There are plenty of pictures showing who uses what and where if you want to go looking for them.


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## Borderbows (Apr 4, 2009)

whiz-Oz said:


> As the Joker said; "If you’re good at something, never do it for free."


We dont do it for free...
As said, What does this say about hoyts gear?
W&W do it to less than HALF of what Hoyt do, And samick less again... So id go with Samick by this logic, if your wanting big companies.
BUT with this logic, We are best, samick second, W&W third ect.

The old marketting adage is, that the product with the biggest advertising budget, has the most sales, but generally the least value for money


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## whiz-Oz (Jul 19, 2007)

Yep. And what wins on Sunday, sells on Monday.


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## Borderbows (Apr 4, 2009)

whiz-Oz said:


> Yep. And what wins on Sunday, sells on Monday.


we must be winning then.
Crap website, No advertising budget, no sponsered archers, and a nice comfortable orderbook, And selling into countries we have never sold into before.
and every week we get replys from archers taking there own achivements home, PB's Local, regional and national trophies.
And not to mention reaching longer targets with good sight extention with same arrows.
This isnt mainstream advertising, or high level marketting attempts. Its just people getting on with it and being impressed. Word spreads, and it spreads in a nice slow fashion... one where we can keep an eye on progress in our own organic way. We are happy with our bit...


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## whiz-Oz (Jul 19, 2007)

But it must be helped along by your taking every opportunity to say how good your gear is. If I was really bored, I'd select 200 of your posts at random across each of the three main archery forums. Then I'd look to see how many of them mention or infer that your equipment is superior. 
I expect that it would lead to an enlightening statistic. I've done several statistical post analysis reports on quite a few people's posting trends.

Of course, I could compare and contrast your postings against other specialised archery equipment small business owners that post on archery forums too. 

But you know, I don't think I've noticed any.


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## Borderbows (Apr 4, 2009)

I think you will find my last 200 posts are answering your attacks on our position. You defend the marketplace with as much fervour as i do, yet my family, friends, livelyhood depend on our bows performance earning them a living, yet you claim you gain no personal benfit from Hoyt.

Why is it your personal bug bear to make sure you belittle us everywhere we post, Afterall, i have had debates with you on here and AIUK...
You single handedly allow us more sales pitch air time than any other poster...

We are still happy to stand behind any independednt test... 
and when you get blog entries like this, You do want to shout it to the world, but then again, im just proud!

http://www.archery-interchange.net/blogs/josh-77/5813-borders-please.html

____________________________________
Last night I was shooting again with Aberdeen uni at the sports village.
I got talking to a guy called Johan (hope that's how you spell it) just about general shooting and arrow spines/tuning, I now understand it all a bit better than before 
But more importantly he shoots Border Hex 5's and he was saying how he went from shooting his old limbs which were 36# on the fingers to these which are 42# on his fingers. And there was not much difference in the feeling between the two as the Borders were a lot smoother and didn't stack. 
I was a little sceptical about this as it was quite a massive jump in poundage not to feel a difference.
So he offered for me to try them out, I gladly accepted the offer! 
Just to note, these are 40# limbs and a 66 inch bow so in theory they should have been a fair bit less smooth and heavy to draw...they weren't.
On the first arrow on full draw it honestly felt barely any different to my limbs which are 68" wound all the way out +1 turn and are about 36# on my fingers. I think this is mainly because of the way they got there. These limbs are seriously smooth compared to anything I've ever shot before, I now understand what people who own these limbs are on about!
After the draw came the release which nearly blew me away, it was more like a compound than a recurve!
The speed it chucked arrows out at felt immense, would be really interesting to put it through a chronograph.
On release the bow very lively compared to mine, not surprising seeing as my bow is an Alumin(i)um Helix with the added TEC bar for stiffness and his was a Pro Accent which about 200+ grams lighter and made from carbon.
Still, these limbs are seriously impressive and have put Border back in my mind for the next set of limbs, for me now, it's between, Border Hex 5's / their CXG's or the MK Vera / 1440 limbs.
And as for my next riser, I've narrowed it down to the following: Inno CXT, Kaya Harrier and the Samick Xenotech, Basically something a bit lighter than my Helix and something that has a bit more of a lively feel giving more feedback. 
But I'm waiting to find out what Borders new riser is going to be like and also the carbon riser from Samick if they ever get round to releasing it lol.
However, a new bow will have to wait until after I go to Monza to see the F1 next year, I have a feeling that's not going to be cheap 
___________________________________________

Its not just me that thinks we have something special...
Though the 300 sets of target limbs we sell, doesnt get the coverage that hoyt buys, so i have to make the most of it. you cant blame me....
I do my UPMOST to take other peoples comments heard, and not my own.
We do give poeple 28 days to return the limbs for a refund... no questions asked.... We would like some feedback, for our information... If we dont stand up to the hype, then you will get your money back. we beleave in our product.


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## apprenticecoach (Dec 21, 2009)

If it will help sort this out, I'm happy to make my Hex 5s (36lb 68inch) available for any reasonable non-destructive testing.


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## Borderbows (Apr 4, 2009)

apprenticecoach said:


> If it will help sort this out, I'm happy to make my Hex 5s (36lb 68inch) available for any reasonable non-destructive testing.


if your offer is taken up, and if you have any problems resulting in the testing process, just get intouch, and we will keep you on the right side of fair.


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## whiz-Oz (Jul 19, 2007)

There's no testing that needs to be done. It's not a "this limb is better than this limb" discussion. 
I'm just apparently "attacking" Sid. 
I've asked a reasonable question, which we've now worked through to my satisfaction and did I at any point say that Border Limbs were good or bad? 
Did I offer any opinions on Border limbs at all? 
All I can say is that I've come to some conclusions about what niches they occupy in the marketplace and why. 

What I have found is that if Sid can't answer a question, he'll supply a lot of information around it without actually answering. I find that particularly rather amusing.
I don't mind people loving their gear and promoting it. Sometimes it's fanboi stuff from kids. Sometimes it's just the exuberance of having a new toy that gets people posting. 
Why can't you just stay helpful Sid, who answers questions and gives good product support, rather than helpful Sid, who answers questions and gives good product support but will ram how good his gear is down your throat at every opportunity?
Why can't you fix up your website with pictures, information and quotes from users that can do the talking for you? 
It would be a business investment. 
Word of mouth marketing is effective from users. From manufacturers, it just comes across as snake oil. And when you start quoting things that can't be proven, it just annoys me. 
Don't treat all your potential customers as idiots. 
Not all of us are. 
I have more questions that you won't be able to answer. I'll save them for asking in public next time you start advertising overdrive.


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## Borderbows (Apr 4, 2009)

whiz-Oz said:


> There's no testing that needs to be done. It's not a "this limb is better than this limb" discussion.
> I'm just apparently "attacking" Sid.
> I've asked a reasonable question, which we've now worked through to my satisfaction and did I at any point say that Border Limbs were good or bad?
> Did I offer any opinions on Border limbs at all?
> ...


i thought i had answered you...
we are working on a website, as you probably have already read...
And yes, my information does come with a small price... my sale pitch, but you can read past it if you will. afterall you cant read a magazine without others sales pitch... Bow International Questions and Answers section is from George Tekmitchov, or John Dudley, both hoyt employees, answer them... my posts and position are clear... my knowledge is in our product, and i dont see that level of bow design anywhere else... what else am i going to refer to when talking about smoothness and super recurves... I can ask hoyt for intelectual support!!!
Im using customers words to answer your points, im using word of mouth as a by stander, a spectator, to address your points. If you hadnt pushed me so hard from start to finish on this point i wouldnt be the manufacturer using 3rd part quotes to proove my case...
When you push us, on what is unfair trading in our view, i will go into overdrive as im quite shocked at this oppresive marketting strategy that inflicts itself on us and our ability to show the world what we are capable of... exactly as your original point makes. no world Gents pro level fita poduim places. this effects all smaller companies like is... your now inferring that this gagging order should be applied to internet forums...that game i dont want to play, and im sure the rest of the internet comunities out there will object too... since the internet bypasses money, and its influences and gives everyone a chance to state their case...


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## apprenticecoach (Dec 21, 2009)

I sense a bit of perceived pot vs kettle here. Whiz dug himself a bit of a hole
with his thorough and enthusiastic Hoyt review and ever since has been tarred by
the brush of Hoyt fanboyism because that was his one and only review. Since then
a lot of his pronouncements have been seen, rightly or wrongly, through that
filter.

Obviously Sid is taking every opportunity to promote his products and his
affiliation is clear to everyone.

As to the argument that is taking place here, I don't think anyone can really
give a definitive answer as to what motivates elite archers to use particular
equipment or to change equipment. However it seems logical that giving them the
opportunity to try new kit is essential.

I seem to remember seeing a thread
somewhere about a new stabilization system that had been promoted to members of
the US recurve team and there is the distribution of new Hoyt and Win&Win gear
to many top archers. The problem for Border appears to be getting people at
that level to even try their limbs. Kaya may have got off to a flying start
through relationships with Korean archers that began with Samick. At one stage
there seemed to be a possibility of Limbwalker trying out a set of Borders - did
that happen and with what outcome? That could have been the beginning of a small
wedge of increased credibility in the US target market.

Just food for thought.


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## whiz-Oz (Jul 19, 2007)

Well, actually I looked at the Formula, saw what I though had been done and then asked for one to examine and do a write up on. It's not mine and it has to go back when it's finished with. 
I need a shooting machine yet. And about 200kg of weight..
However, I don't leap in and promote the formula at every opportunity. I've answered a lot of questions about it. People seem to like them and dislike them. 
And when I finally finish with it.... you might not think I'm such a fanboi..


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## Borderbows (Apr 4, 2009)

apprenticecoach said:


> I sense a bit of perceived pot vs kettle here. Whiz dug himself a bit of a hole
> with his thorough and enthusiastic Hoyt review and ever since has been tarred by
> the brush of Hoyt fanboyism because that was his one and only review. Since then
> a lot of his pronouncements have been seen, rightly or wrongly, through that
> ...


Limbwalker seems to have been biten by the golf bug... moods change, and habbits slide.
I used to spend some of my time whitewater Kayaking, Uganda, Alps, Spain... now that time is Mountainbiking... Alps, NZ, and hopefully the US side of the globe , Moab, or Whistler. No idea why the change, but i just drifted from one to another. Im sure Limbwalker is in similar shoes.

but yes.. we are keen to let people try our gear that is my main aim...
Just open the door and we will let you decide for yourself....


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## apprenticecoach (Dec 21, 2009)

Sounds interesting - the 200kg looks a bit on the destructive side. And don't get me wrong on the fanboi thing - I was only trying to clarify the perceptions issue that is colouring a lot of this discussion.

One final thought; wouldn't it be great to be able to do an anonymous survey of the top archers to find out why there are using particular equipment. Is it because:
a. it's the best you've ever tried 
b. it's the best you've ever been given
c. you've always used brand x and never tried anything else
d. etc etc


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## caspian (Jan 13, 2009)

e. they're paid or sponsored to use it.

any of the top brands would win in the hands of the top archers.


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## Mithril (Dec 4, 2010)

Evidently not, based on Vittorio's comments about Borders in this thread...

http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=1372525&page=1

Specifically,


> In 1999 Michele was eliminated from the quarte ro f finals ow World Championships in an unexplainable way. After flying very well for the whole championships, then suddenly arrows become flying unconsistently during that match. A frined of us (from Slovenja) watching the match on the big TV screen, told us that surely limbs had something not working properly as he could see from the screen.
> Back home we checked the limbs and found that there was an invisible crack inside the pocket that was influencing the stability of the pocked itself.
> We informed you about this, just to get the answer that it was a well known issue in your production, influencing all limbs of that type made during that year. Not all were failing, you said, and therefore you did not inform customers about this possible problem.
> A new pair of limbs than was received, and Michele went to the Pre-olympics in Sideny withth them. But, during competiton, the top limb twisted and the bow become less than acceptabel. And anoth r competition went to nothing.
> ...


You certainly don't hear that much about "top brands"... especially with the credentials of a Vittorio Frangilli. I find it hard to believe there isnt *one single top shooter worldwide - anywhere* who wouldn't buy, use and win with Borders if they really performed better. Winning a World or Olympic championship certainly means more to that level of shooter than the small amount of money they save getting free gear! But I also freely admit I am so turned off by the tone of the Border fanboy posts. It's so ridiculous...


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## Borderbows (Apr 4, 2009)

Mithril... in that link you highlighted, 



massman said:


> OK then. If we could get away from the *****, pissing contest...please.


I answered you... would you mind answering me...



Borderbows said:


> Do other makers suffer from failures?
> Mithril, Do you mind me asking what your reason is for being in this thread? your a junior poster here, with 15-16 posts on this forum when you popped up here and its nice to know who we are talking to, you have no profile data to help me guage the level of experience you have?


You skipped my questions but without any respect shown you start this....
Why would anyone now start insulting our customers?


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## Borderbows (Apr 4, 2009)

Mithril,
I have friends in NZ... i notice, probably by coincidence, that when they are on MSN and im chatting to them, you post on Archerytalk. I assume your in the Austrailian time zone then... Havent looked at all your posts, just the ones digging at us.
I also make the similarity in the use of the term "Volume" and also have a issue over the term Fanboy..

Are you Whiz-oz? or am i on the completely wrong track...
You even became a member in the middle of this thread... 4th december...


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## caspian (Jan 13, 2009)

Mithril said:


> I find it hard to believe there isnt *one single top shooter worldwide - anywhere* who wouldn't buy, use and win with Borders if they really performed better.


and how about if the top end stuff all performs more or less identically so the archers shoot what they're paid or given to shoot?


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## Borderbows (Apr 4, 2009)

there are more important things to worry about first... in order of importance... as stated by the respective quotes.



Cuthbert said:


> The real ratio is 90% mental game and 10% equipment.





Vittorio said:


> Supposing you are comparing perfect limbs to perfect risers (average commercial limbs and commecial risers are NOT perfect), limbs dominate by 90 %
> You can adjust almost any riser to your style of shooting by changing stabilizers and weights. You will never be able to adjust limbs that do not perform as expected.
> 
> Agree with Sid with a slight change in sequence:
> - Archer, Arrows, Limbs, Plunger, Riser


We are in agreement that the Archer is the most important factor in archery, which has been my commetns all along. The level of coaching that can be paid for by a package deal will deliver better gains, than picking a limb thats 5%, 2%, 10% 7% whatever better...
When you get a set of limbs that are 5% not quite as good, but you can afford to spend you money on coaching, rather than limbs, you can see the trade offs.
This topic is soo huge that there is not one single answer other than to look at the components in each and every case. If your aim is to hit the Olympics then you might want to save for coaching, if your looking to get the best kit you can for your money, you should look at the stats on that bit of kit, and not how good the hero is that shoots it, since 90% of the ability is in the person which doesnt come with your limbs you just bought!


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## CLASSICHUNTER (May 20, 2005)

att: Borderbows wow sorry to say but when some one quotes something or gives a good explanation of the problems and Sid you ask him why he posted as a junior poster a response... as a business owner I wouldn`t give a hoot if they had only posted once .. I would listen to their concerns and LEARN FROM THEM ... numbers of posts don`t give you credibility... You seem to have a hate on for other companies and use their names freely.. I have won numerous sales awards from major company's like Yamaha, Honda ,Suzuki and I`ll tell you every time you belittle another company you are selling for them and shooting yourself in the foot.. imho and I have over 2000 posts.. and a archery club owner .....Take the upper road approach and you will sell more and look more professional .....


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## Sanford (Jan 26, 2009)

CLASSICHUNTER said:


> and I`ll tell you every time you belittle another company you are selling for them and shooting yourself in the foot..


Marketing 101. Classic. The subtle difference is where a manufacturer gives reason why their product is superior to others, but that is reserved for one-way advertising venues. One such venue would be the use of the banners above at the top of the board and leading to the marketing message. Message boards are not that venue. Message boards are where consumers discuss the merits of products based on opinions. Opinions can be founded and unfounded. Does not matter. It's open conversation.

Agreed. When a product manufacturer stoops to the level of defending their product in open and opinionated conversation, while at the same time putting down other manufacturers or consumer opinions, or, stating that their product "would have more market share but for....", there is a definite loss in credibility of the product to the benefit to those companies that chose not to argue with potential customers and let their product stand on its own merits. Yes, the market is not fair. It's not free, either. It has to be cultivated and grown and that requires much capital. Rolling in the mud is not an efficient way to cultivate market ground.

Sid, I have always enjoyed your informative posts, but as a representative of your company, I don't think you realize how much damage you do to your company's image when you get defensive or whine about unfair markets. A minority will ignore the backbiting out of a company and possibly root you on. The majority probably will not take you or your company serious.


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## Borderbows (Apr 4, 2009)

CLASSICHUNTER said:


> when some one quotes something or gives a good explanation of the problems and Sid you ask him why he posted as a junior poster a response... as a business owner I wouldn`t give a hoot if they had only posted once ..


I was trying to find out if the poster was a sock puppet as Sanford puts it.

Your latter, and Sanford's main point, for that matter is a point i'll have to learn from.


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## whiz-Oz (Jul 19, 2007)

caspian said:


> and how about if the top end stuff all performs more or less identically so the archers shoot what they're paid or given to shoot?


Doesn't that then verify that there's no advantage in going with Borders? If you're going to win with anything because they're more or less identical, then you may as well get paid to win by using equipment from a manufacturer who'll give you contingency money to promote their product. There isn't a person here who will trade a virtually undetectable difference in force draw curve for a thousand dollars in their pocket. 
There is a big difference between winning with a medal and winning with a medal and a cheque. Ask a professional sportsman how he makes money and if he'd knock back a sponsorship deal. I'm sure Michael Jordan *really* wanted to be sponsored by the Cheng Shin Shoe manufacturing company, but he just had to accept Nike because Cheng Shin weren't offering. 

And if there's more or less identical performance... does that mean you should ignore any claims to the contrary made by any manufacturer?


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## CLASSICHUNTER (May 20, 2005)

GOOD MAN SID for reading and absorbing whats said and I stand corrected I only have 1683 posts... lol lol Merry Christmas to all..


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## caspian (Jan 13, 2009)

whiz-Oz said:


> Doesn't that then verify that there's no advantage in going with Borders?


I don't believe I ever said it did? my only point has ever regarding the Formula limb root system.



> If you're going to win with anything because they're more or less identical, then you may as well get paid to win by using equipment from a manufacturer who'll give you contingency money to promote their product.


sure, which precisely why people shoot what they're paid to shoot, as long as its quality gear that will allow them to win.



> Ask a professional sportsman how he makes money and if he'd knock back a sponsorship deal. I'm sure Michael Jordan *really* wanted to be sponsored by the Cheng Shin Shoe manufacturing company, but he just had to accept Nike because Cheng Shin weren't offering.


possibly a reason you see a lot of Hoyt being shot, perhaps?



> And if there's more or less identical performance... does that mean you should ignore any claims to the contrary made by any manufacturer?


perhaps a good reason for people to make up their own damn mind as opposed to relying on advertising to make it up for them.


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## whiz-Oz (Jul 19, 2007)

caspian said:


> I don't believe I ever said it did? my only point has ever regarding the Formula limb root system.


Ah yes. That point which you seem to be incredibly unable to defend logically and statistically. I'd call that an opinion actually. 
Every single argument you've made has been defeated soundly. 
Yet, your entire basis is that people don't have a choice. 
Their choice is to not buy it and buy something else. 
I believe that's a choice.
And there are two different conversion kits available and an alternative manufacturer for limbs. I believe that there are choices even there.
You can be easily demonstrated to ignore all similar instances of this travesty that you consider has occured. 
The single overwhelming failure in your argument is that NOBODY, not one person has ever chimed in to say that they would have bought a paralever limbed bow if it had limbs made by someone else. 
Because then they'd have to admit that they liked something enough to buy it, but they won't buy it because they don't like it. 
So you're arguing in favour of people who don't exist, with an opinion that can't be substantiated. 

How doggedly do you want to cling to your extremely weak position on this?


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## Borderbows (Apr 4, 2009)

whiz-Oz said:


> There isn't a person here who will trade a virtually undetectable difference in force draw curve for a thousand dollars in their pocket.


I would disagree... there is an undetectable difference in alot of limbs... 
To look soley at the weight changes in each inch of draw, slows you the scale of difference, and people can feel the difference in mainstream limbs.
There are methods of making a limb feel VERY different, while still increasing the vertical stability, and having enhances torsional stability.

Here is someone elses words to show you that there are small differences in most limbs but NOT all.



Hank D Thoreau said:


> Foam is not the issue with the smoothness. The HEX5 draw characteristics and feel are due to the radical recurve. Most limbs uncurl the recurve for the first 19 to 21 inches. After that, the draw properties of the limbs change. This "string lift point" can be determined by measuring the draw length where the string loses contact with the limb. Here are some examples of measurments I have made.
> 
> Border HEX5, 8 inch BH, 26.5 inches
> PSE Carbon, 8 1/4 inch BH, 20 inches
> ...


And i dont think the performance is near identical.

______________________________
The kayas were set up at 43 pounds shooting 300 grain ACE shafts at 197 fps...
I checked this several times with the help of a friend checking my draw, both when weighing the bow and shooting.
I then slotted the borders in to the Nilo riser, no adjustments for tiller or preload and used the same string as on the kayas... 
They weigh in at 37# at my draw of 29" and here is the amazing bit... That 300 grain ACE is doing 197 fps...
Pretty impressive I think you will agree.... 6 pounds lighter and same speed...
______________________________
These latter words have come from the Norwegan Barebow champ? The full post is on AIUK.
http://www.archery-interchange.net/f127/hex4w-vs-kaya-vperf-29000/

These are not my words or my measurement techneques.


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## whiz-Oz (Jul 19, 2007)

Borderbows said:


> I would disagree... there is an undetectable difference in alot of limbs...


Of course you'd disagree. You're a manufacturer. I'm talking about a consumer archer. Specifically, anyone who whom equipment makes no difference.


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## Borderbows (Apr 4, 2009)

whiz-Oz said:


> Of course you'd disagree. You're a manufacturer. I'm talking about a consumer archer. Specifically, anyone who whom equipment makes no difference.


Read the graph... its data from an Archer that is a poster on here, and on other various forums.
These are the very words of "consumer" archers.
They bought thier bows, and were not given them.
You can talk to them for your self if you choose.

I will repeat, This is NOT our data...


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## caspian (Jan 13, 2009)

whiz-Oz said:


> Every single argument you've made has been defeated soundly.


incorrect, but I am long since over debating it. it's become an increasingly abstruse debate that has now spilling far beyond my original point, which is that Hoyt have made a marketing (as opposed to an engineering) decision to move to a proprietary form factor, thus alienating the market.

that's the simple fact of the matter, a limb pocket is a limb pocket - regardless of whether it has a flying bridge or not.


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## whiz-Oz (Jul 19, 2007)

caspian said:


> incorrect, but I am long since over debating it. it's become an increasingly abstruse debate that has now spilling far beyond my original point, which is that Hoyt have made a marketing (as opposed to an engineering) decision to move to a proprietary form factor, thus alienating the market.
> 
> that's the simple fact of the matter, a limb pocket is a limb pocket - regardless of whether it has a flying bridge or not.


Judging by the amount of Formula RX's that can be seen around the world in random photos taken in the last twelve months, I'd say that alienating the market has worked quite well for their bottom line. And simply because they offer the choice of HDS or Paralever limb in their own lineup means that your argument is null and void. 

Normally I agree with everything that you say. This idea you like to promote on restriction of choice is so incredibly wrong that I can't let it remain unchallenged ever. As for your opinion on pure marketing, the fact that I can measure limb flex under tension across the support points means that it does actually store energy there. I can't deny that it shoots the same arrow faster through a chrono than the other limbs I have to test against it. The fact that the location points for the limbs are further apart means that the limb alignment is more precise if that makes any difference. As far as I'm concerned, with what I can accurately discern, Hoyt didn't lie about it. That some fairly competitive archers use it to win major competitions indicates that it's at least as good as any other system. That it does what it says means that I can only have support for my opinion that it's better.


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## jmvargas (Oct 21, 2004)

we currently have 6 male archers and 4 female archers in our national training pool for archers to be trained for international competition leading to the 2012 and 2016 olympics..

all of them were given a choice of what equipment to get fully funded by our national olympic committee and private sponsors none of which are archery equipment manufacturers..

all of them chose samick or win&win limbs and risers and kaya limbs....

except for one archer who chose nano pros, the rest decided on easton X10s for their arrows..

all of them already had their original bows which they will use as their back-up bows and only one had a hoyt GMX riser paired with winex libs...


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## whiz-Oz (Jul 19, 2007)

So none of them chose to get free Border limbs when they had the chance? Well, fancy that.


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## jmvargas (Oct 21, 2004)

whiz-Oz said:


> So none of them chose to get free Border limbs when they had the chance? Well, fancy that.



...in fact most of them wanted to try it when they saw mine but since borders does not give free limbs they decided to order something they were already familiar with as our national open was only 2 weeks away at the time..

2 of the ladies are currently trying my light limbs and we will see how that goes...

6 of the 10 archers had used hoyt G3s and the 900CX in the past..


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## Borderbows (Apr 4, 2009)

whiz-Oz said:


> I can't deny that it shoots the same arrow faster through a chrono than the other limbs I have to test against it. The fact that the location points for the limbs are further apart means that the limb alignment is more precise if that makes any difference. As far as I'm concerned, with what I can accurately discern, Hoyt didn't lie about it. That some fairly competitive archers use it to win major competitions indicates that it's at least as good as any other system. That it does what it says means that I can only have support for my opinion that it's better.


We have not seen any difference in speed in our normal ILF hex to the RX Hex limbs.
I can only assume, that the speed of the RX would be down to the shorter limb?
For example, meduim limbs, on a longer riser = next bow size up, for the limb length. if you took bow size for bow size then you would have a shorter limb on the 27" RX.

Speed come from a thousand ways, and to put it down to the limb butt could be seen as weak as your compring apples with pears, the change in knock shoulders, could account for some due to extra recurve engagement, and you dont know if the taper rate in the limb had changed, let alone construction type. The core to composit ratio could have changed which changes the bows performance.


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## SHADOW-MKII (Feb 19, 2009)

> We have not seen any difference in speed in our normal ILF hex to the RX Hex limbs.


You chose to stiffen the limbs in the area between the Dovetail and adjustment bolt didn't you? 

Maybe that's why you see no increase in speed.


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## Borderbows (Apr 4, 2009)

SHADOW-MKII said:


> You chose to stiffen the limbs in the area between the Dovetail and adjustment bolt didn't you?
> 
> Maybe that's why you see no increase in speed.


so for X amount of stored energy, you can accelerate more mass, faster with more efficency?
That rule defies the laws of physics...

Did Whiz measure the movement of the mid section of the limb butt on the RX at 0.07mm of deflection at full draw... or have i remember that wrong...
Not sure if thats actually a substancial amount of movement that would actually effect speed, or the DFC?


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## Mithril (Dec 4, 2010)

CLASSICHUNTER said:


> GOOD MAN SID for reading and absorbing whats said and I stand corrected I only have 1683 posts... lol lol Merry Christmas to all..


Looks like you spoke too soon... This guy doesn't know how to take a hint.


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## Borderbows (Apr 4, 2009)

No, Mithril, Thats a different issue.... This thread has yet to mention the *potential* alignment fun you can have with ILF... The PMS has an advanatge over ILF...
there is a benefit. Though as Whiz likes to point out, It doesnt stop the pro's winning and setting records with ILF either. Thats why we can only resort to numbers that are taken from the anlaysis of that particular component. ones that isolate the area of discussion, No one has ever disputed the 40% reduction in limb bolt loadings, but limb bolts dont pop! its a number thats solid, sound, good. With 40% loading drop, the surface finish should suffer less... there are pro's and cons abound!
here is an example for you, outside of archery to keep it clean, easy and nutral. as requested.
If a top programmer used a top end laptop, and you bought that model of laptop, would it help you as a programmer to program. Would you suddenly become a better programmer. I dont think so. SO why buy it. Why choose that top end laptop over other laptops.
Simple Because you wont have to wait on it loading, processing..., it will be fast and responsive, and it will have all the features that wont hold you back as a user. So what makes it a top end laptop? Simple. Faster processor, more memory, better components, big hard disk, and all of these components come with thier own stats and are quantifiable and are tested in magazines.
you can tell which components are good, and you can tell which are not, so you the user can quantify the difference. (if it makes a difference to you is a different matter, (16gb of ram isnt going to help with web trawling too much, if thats all your going to do with it)

Its much better if posts add to the debate, conversation, ,as pointed out to me by ClassicHunter, and Sanford, Im trying to get information on the table. just like, whats the refresh rates on screens, HDD spindle speeds, and data transfer rates. For those that dont want the info, can skim read, and for those that want to get into details its there.
Numbers work for science, why cant they work for forum opinions. 
I gave info that said, we had not observed any speed of DFC difference in like for like at our end...
Shadow-MKII made a valid comment to add to the thread, to which i explained the rational behind my statement and why we did what we did.


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## ewan (Aug 28, 2007)

EPIC thread. Good read. Was kind of hoping Vittorio would chip in.


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## caspian (Jan 13, 2009)

whiz-Oz said:


> Judging by the amount of Formula RX's that can be seen around the world in random photos taken in the last twelve months, I'd say that alienating the market has worked quite well for their bottom line.


if you pay people to shoot them, they will - be it sponsorship, contingency payments for winning or just equipment provision. throw in some sheep factor and sure, people will shoot them.

they're not a bad system from a technological point of view, and yes they're even possibly slightly superior. but I still contend that the same archers winning with them would have won with other gear had they been shooting it at the time.

my point has only ever been that as an archery products consumer, they're a solution to a problem that doesn't exist, and for little to no benefit.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Borderbows said:


> Limbwalker seems to have been biten by the golf bug... moods change, and habbits slide.
> I used to spend some of my time whitewater Kayaking, Uganda, Alps, Spain... now that time is Mountainbiking... Alps, NZ, and hopefully the US side of the globe , Moab, or Whistler. No idea why the change, but i just drifted from one to another. Im sure Limbwalker is in similar shoes.
> 
> but yes.. we are keen to let people try our gear that is my main aim...
> Just open the door and we will let you decide for yourself....


True enough - to a point. Everyone needs a break now and then if they want to maintain any sanity at all. I'll get back to shooting competitively when the time is right. Would love to have another pair of Border limbs to put through the paces however. The ones I briefly tested (before I broke one of them) were certainly intriguing and the results I was getting from them - albeit shooting barebow - were pretty impressive. In fact, I'd say that to date - the tightest barebow 18m indoor groups I've ever shot were with the Border limbs on my 27" Bernardini Luxor, shooting CX Nano Pro's. If only I had not dropped my bow on concrete and broken the bottom limb, I would have known how those limbs performed in competition. 

They certainly had a unique draw force curve. One that - once gotten used to - was buttery smooth at the clicker zone. 

Only grip I had with the limbs was the fact that I had to use a stringer to string the bow. I know, I know. I should use one anyway... Well, I don't. So it would take some getting used to.

I will say this though, I don't miss these pointless arguments on AT. And I'll admit that I fueled my share over the years. Got it. But perhaps I've seen the light now... There are better things to do than argue about things we have no control over...

John


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## Borderbows (Apr 4, 2009)

limbwalker said:


> True enough - to a point. Everyone needs a break now and then if they want to maintain any sanity at all. I'll get back to shooting competitively when the time is right. Would love to have another pair of Border limbs to put through the paces however. The ones I briefly tested (before I broke one of them) were certainly intriguing and the results I was getting from them - albeit shooting barebow - were pretty impressive. In fact, I'd say that to date - the tightest barebow 18m indoor groups I've ever shot were with the Border limbs on my 27" Bernardini Luxor, shooting CX Nano Pro's. If only I had not dropped my bow on concrete and broken the bottom limb, I would have known how those limbs performed in competition.
> 
> They certainly had a unique draw force curve. One that - once gotten used to - was buttery smooth at the clicker zone.
> 
> ...


John, when you are ready... tell us what your looking for!!! We are really keen on getting your feedback, private, public or otherwise.

Happy shooting, putting, walking, whatever your doing at the moment...


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

> Happy shooting, putting, walking, whatever your doing at the moment...


Actually, remodeling my kitchen and dining room and starting a new JOAD club here in our little town. Even golf has had to wait... Did two month-long details on the Gulf Oil Spill this fall too, so yea, life has been pretty busy for me lately. Would love to have another pair of Hex-5's to try out on my Luxor riser. I do miss shooting barebow. I'll PM you.

John


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## Greysides (Jun 10, 2009)

As a matter of curiosity, given that Border custom-manufacture limbs, in a situation where one limb is FUBAR would it be possible to manufacture another one to pair with it?


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## caspian (Jan 13, 2009)

possibly, although you'd probably have to ship the surviving limb back to them so they could match it?


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## Borderbows (Apr 4, 2009)

Greysides said:


> As a matter of curiosity, given that Border custom-manufacture limbs, in a situation where one limb is FUBAR would it be possible to manufacture another one to pair with it?


Take wood cores for example. You get a different end result fromt he same specifications of cores, if the core is end grain, vs flat sawn timber. For example if you squash timber you will be more compression if the growth wings run inline with the compression. Though you get less compression if the growth rings run vertical. You also have higher density from the top of the tree to the bottom, add that to the density changes in the fadeout/limb butt and you can end up with 4/5lbs difference... To tiller 4/5lbs out of a limb it would be 6mm different in widths just to make up for a difference in timber density changing the amount the limb squashes during the cure process
North side of the tree (northern Hemisphere) is more dense too. so the most dense timber is north side of the bottom of a big tree. I cant predict this without SERIOUS R&D, and it works out cheaper and easier to just make a pair.


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