# JOAD Nationals



## Landed in AZ (May 11, 2008)

Who's staying where?

We are at the Holiday Inn in West Chester.


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## Jim C (Oct 15, 2002)

Landed in AZ said:


> Who's staying where?
> 
> We are at the Holiday Inn in West Chester.


 Do you mean US target nationals-west chester is a suburb near our tournament>


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## Landed in AZ (May 11, 2008)

Jim C said:


> Do you mean US target nationals-west chester is a suburb near our tournament>


No I mean, West Chester, PA. JOAD Nationals not Outdoor Nationals.

12 miles = 20 minutes to the venue.


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## Xcreekarchery1 (Aug 7, 2007)

barb we took advantage of the Marriot suite deals


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## Jim C (Oct 15, 2002)

Landed in AZ said:


> No I mean, West Chester, PA. JOAD Nationals not Outdoor Nationals.
> 
> 12 miles = 20 minutes to the venue.



my bad-sorry

I cannot recall where we are staying-Liz made the arrangements. Funny how both shoots have a West Chester about 12 miles from the venue. I think we are staying in the host hotel-Last year that was a mistake, hopefully this year it won't be


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## red_elan10 (Apr 23, 2008)

For the Hall's team, we booked rooms at the Holiday Inn in Exton (we liked the free hot breakfast!). Looking at the photos of this facility - it should be a beautiful place for the kids to shoot!

Teresa Iaconi
Hall's Arrow JOAD


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## H Sahi (Aug 21, 2007)

Staying at Mom's house, where I grew up. And getting home cooked REAL Italian meals.


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## Landed in AZ (May 11, 2008)

H Sahi said:


> Staying at Mom's house, where I grew up. And getting home cooked REAL Italian meals.


No fair, I call foul.  Hope you enjoy your 4th of July weekend at JOADs which clearly you will.


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## clint999 (May 16, 2008)

barb we took advantage of the Marriot suite deals


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## ldfalks (Mar 14, 2003)

Holiday Inn Express (no, I won't be any smarter) in Exton. Hot breakfast rocks!


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## jburg2 (May 25, 2008)

Columbus team ACE Archers staying at Staybridge Suites in Malvern.
jim B


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## TomB (Jan 28, 2003)

South Texas Archery group spread out. Some at Holiday Inn Express. Some in Marriot Suites and some at Staybridge Suites. As for me, I am fortunate enough to be accompanying a super group of Collegians to the World University Games in Belgrade, Serbia. Only second JOAD nationals I have missed in 14 years (last one was due to ankle surgery.)


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## Landed in AZ (May 11, 2008)

TomB said:


> South Texas Archery group spread out. Some at Holiday Inn Express. Some in Marriot Suites and some at Staybridge Suites. As for me, I am fortunate enough to be accompanying a super group of Collegians to the World University Games in Belgrade, Serbia. Only second JOAD nationals I have missed in 14 years (last one was due to ankle surgery.)


Tom you will be missed but we will rock out with your TX crowd for sure. Have fun on your World tour. Stay safe and see you hopefully in August in Ohio.


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## Landed in AZ (May 11, 2008)

ldfalks said:


> Holiday Inn Express (no, I won't be any smarter) in Exton. Hot breakfast rocks!


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## Jim C (Oct 15, 2002)

Marriott-Liz has a Marriott rewards/VIP or something card.


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## Landed in AZ (May 11, 2008)

I see that Thursday and Friday show scattered thunderstorms. Is PA like FL, wait 10 minutes and the weather will change? Or can we count on it being like the forecast shows?


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## PDS-JOAD (Jun 1, 2009)

The current thunderstorm forecast is below 20%. We do get afternoon thunderstorms this time of year that can have strong winds. Usually they roll-in rather than rain all day. They can be localized, passing by one part of the county and missing the rest. Expect highs in the 80s and plenty of sun. You'll need shade, sunscreen and lot's of fluids.


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## Landed in AZ (May 11, 2008)

PDS-JOAD said:


> The current thunderstorm forecast is below 20%. We do get afternoon thunderstorms this time of year that can have strong winds. Usually they roll-in rather than rain all day. They can be localized, passing by one part of the county and missing the rest. Expect highs in the 80s and plenty of sun. You'll need shade, sunscreen and lot's of fluids.


So what are the rules if the event is called let's say on one of the afternoons and can't be shot? Based on the schedule there is no time to make up the arrows. This is a Jr USAT required event so they must have a plan B, right?


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## archerymom2 (Mar 28, 2008)

I was wondering the same thing. If for some reason things don't finish by dark on Sunday, will they take the "scores so far" as final, or will it continue into Monday. Not that I expect any issues -- just trying to make travel contingency plans.


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## Archery Ang (Apr 24, 2006)

I wish we were going this year!!!! See y'all next year. Maybe next year's location won't be so far for us.

Have fun everyone!


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## Jim C (Oct 15, 2002)

we arrived at the field yesterday, us and the "twinkies" (Daniel and Sean McLaughlin) and set our tents. The field looks very nice-a two level field with cubs and bowmen on top and the cadets and juniors at the lower-and closer to the parking lot-field. Apparently the porta-potties cannot be on the field due to health regulations so we will see how far they are when we get there for practice today. Its a very pretty field on the North side of a big sports complex. It took us about 9 hours from northern cincinnati-the last half hour was slow due to being in a developed area with lots of traffic lights. The turnout appears very strong-about as many as we had in cincy for 2006-at 275 or so far more archers than California or OC. My son's bowman recurve division has at least 2.5 as many archers as last year-Chula only had 3

We then went to LAS to pick up some stuff my wife's business had ordered and to check the place out. "Moose" gave us a full tour-very nice. we are going back tonight-Rob and LAS are sponsoring a pig roast for the kids and they expect 400+ people from what I thought I heard from "Moose".


Practice starts around noon today. unlike the last few JOADs I went to, this is being shot like senior nationals so tomorrow morning the Compounds shoot with recurves in the PM then on saturday, its our kids turn. long days for the staff!


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## Jim C (Oct 15, 2002)

today was practice day and everything ran smoothly. I was sort of surprised that apparently we brought the only metal detector--Ohio shoots tend to have several and I had to leave with several kids having arrows on the field.

Rob K of LAS hosted a pig roast party complete with balloon and egg tosses for the kids which resulted in the winners getting gift certificates from Rob. It was held at LAS behind Rob's house next to his shop and the food was very good. In fact it was one of the best-if not the best-banquets I have been to of the 7 or so JOAD nats I have attended. LAS staff members were working double time making the banquet enjoyable as well as tending to the numerous people shopping at the store. Coach Lee's birthday was today and he was here and a birthday cake was presented by some of the dream team kids and others.

The joad meeting was held at the LAS range and lasted about an hour-our new JOAD coordinator Diane Watson gave a brief presentation concerning the bequest the late great first lady of archery-Ann Hoyt-had made to JOAD. the main topic of the night seemed to be people asking why HS kids who turn 19 in their senior year cannot shoot in JOAD tournaments and what was being done--the main issue of course is FITA sets the ages but as Cindy and Dee and others noted-19 year olds can still participate in the programs but can shoot in the senior division. THe other issues mainly involved growing JOAD and trying to bring the NASP multitudes into JOAD etc.


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## archerymom2 (Mar 28, 2008)

Thanks for the great summaries! Very helpful for us parents who couldn't go!


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## ldfalks (Mar 14, 2003)

Good wrap-up Jim. Practice went well today, but for some reason the sun sets further to the north here in PA than where I live...:mg:

Folks have been trying to bring the NASP masses into mainstream archery with performance equipment for years now. The only way is going to happen is to train the NASP Coordinators and Instructors to higher levels of proficiency (Coach Certifications) so that they know how to take the kids to the next level.

Until we can do that they will just be chasing the magic 300 at 10&15 meters with a genesis bow. They'll never know the thrill of victory on the outdoor range, nor the agony of defeat that makes us come back and try again.

I think things went as well as I expected tonight, though I'm waiting on more info on how they plan to spend the Ann Hoyt endowment fund to grow JOAD.

LD


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## Landed in AZ (May 11, 2008)

Jim C said:


> the main topic of the night seemed to be people asking why HS kids who turn 19 in their senior year cannot shoot in JOAD tournaments and what was being done--the main issue of course is FITA sets the ages but as Cindy and Dee and others noted-19 year olds can still participate in the programs but can shoot in the senior division. THe other issues mainly involved growing JOAD and trying to bring the NASP multitudes into JOAD etc.


I guess I am missing the point. The only tournament that the kids miss is this one. The parents were saying the kids want to shoot with their friends that are also seniors in high school. So shoot. I don't get it. So you shoot senior, what difference does it make. You are on the same line at indoors, you are on the field at all the outdoor events. What is the big deal? I guess I am really slow. Maybe too much sun today.:mg:


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## Huntmaster (Jan 30, 2003)

Well, it's been complained about for years now, and this year they finally did it right. Wonder why no one has mentioned it?

The NAA had JOAD Committee people at the meeting! I think this is well worth mentioning, as the JOAD meeting actually went as it should have. Job well done, and another move in the right direction!

ps, Wasn't the reason initially that the 19 year olds had a problem was that they were too old for JOAD, but not enrolled in a college yet, which put them in the adult class? Why has this changed over the last two years? Are we just making this up as we go along? If they just don't want to be in the adult class, then change the collegiate rules to allow anyone enrolled in school to be considered collegiate.


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## Landed in AZ (May 11, 2008)

Huntmaster said:


> Well, it's been complained about for years now, and this year they finally did it right. Wonder why no one has mentioned it?
> 
> The NAA had JOAD Committee people at the meeting! I think this is well worth mentioning, as the JOAD meeting actually went as it should have. Job well done, and another move in the right direction!
> 
> ps, Wasn't the reason initially that the 19 year olds had a problem was that they were too old for JOAD, but not enrolled in a college yet, which put them in the adult class? Why has this changed over the last two years? Are we just making this up as we go along? If they just don't want to be in the adult class, then change the collegiate rules to allow anyone enrolled in school to be considered collegiate.


Oneof the points made is that the JOAD committee is looking at the issues because it is not something that just affects 19 year olds. Apparently you can be in High School until you are 21. So they want to think it through and made sure all bases are covered. 

And yes Scott you are correct, there was a JOAD Committee member there tonight as she is the tournament director. So this is the first JOAD meeting I have ever attended where there was a JOAD Committee member present.  Thank you Cindy for being there and running the meeting.


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## Jim C (Oct 15, 2002)

Landed in AZ said:


> Oneof the points made is that the JOAD committee is looking at the issues because it is not something that just affects 19 year olds. Apparently you can be in High School until you are 21. So they want to think it through and made sure all bases are covered.
> 
> And yes Scott you are correct, there was a JOAD Committee member there tonight as she is the tournament director. So this is the first JOAD meeting I have ever attended where there was a JOAD Committee member present.  Thank you Cindy for being there and running the meeting.


2005-the meeting was attended by Bob Pian, myself (I guess I was the northern rep, I haven't seen Eva at a JOAD nationals for several years and Bob suggested I be the NR for that meeting), a couple parents and Neil Foster. 06, at our club, Neil Foster, Darrell Pace, Jane Johnson among others attended. 07-Chula-Bob Pian again chaired it and it was well run-last year, don't think it happened. this year, Diane, Cindy were running things well, and it was more relevant than some of the past ones. In 02-Cincy, the meeting did have most of the reps, the JOAD chair etc and maybe 40 attendees



As to aged out HS kids-I have one Chelsea Obrebski who turned 18 a few weeks before the end of 08. She still is very active and shoots in the senior division and I note, as her coach, she has an advantage over the other senior women in Ohio-these ladies are working full time jobs and one has a young baby and a job. The spring term of your senior year -thinking back 32 years ago, was a fairly stress free time with alot of free time so I would suggest that a JOAD who is shooting senior ought to be fairly competitive!!

If the issue is that kids go from winning at the JOAD level where-in many states-you cannot even field a full compliment of at least 3 archers in every division--to the senior division where there are often 5-10 archers in the division I don't have much sympathy for that. As Dee and others noted, a club can easily be a SENIOR CLUB for a nominal increase in dues and there is no need for a 19 year old to be unable to practice and shoot in club events


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## Serious Fun (May 12, 2003)

I can think of so many things to say, it’s great to have an audience  
1. May I suggest that anyone that is passionate about helping to grow and support target archery and the USAA consider becoming a USAA BOD http://usarchery.org/news/article/13262 
2. Isn’t it great to have paid staff member (Diane Watson) that is dedicated to the program! (Volunteers cannot be relied upon to provide the time and funding in a timely manner to administer a program) Volunteers can do provide much needed help. Let Diane Watson know that you can help with whatever you can from serving on the JOAD committee to hosting a tournament to starting a JOAD club.
3. Thank you Rob K of LAS!
4. The 2009 Mexican Junior National Championships had 450 archers and offered a 19-21 age division. Is a youth division older that FITA divisions something that COPARCO member association can implement? The 19-21 year olds will just need to know that they are not eligible for FITA world championship competition just Bowmans and Cubs are not.
5. The number one task to grow JOAD is to provide more JOAD clubs so that there are places to take part in a year around youth target archery program. The key to starting more clubs are to have more qualified people trained in sound target archery practices. Those people are Certified Intermediate Archery Instructors and Certified Coaches including Community level coaches. We need more to be certified so that a some will start a JOAD club. Thanks to the ESDF, there is coach certification support. http://www.usarchery.org/content/index/5850 (There are grants for equipment and programs to construct archery parks and training centers)
6. Thank you Cindy for hosting the 2009 JOAD National Championship. For that mater, all tournament hosts in the past and in the future.
7. Do what you can to make what the archer do significant for today, tomorrow and years into the future. Thankfully many before us did so.
8. Last but not least, be sure to thank the judges.

From the personal, un-official desk of Bob Pian


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## dajalo (Jan 24, 2006)

*Better late than never.*

A day late and as always a dollar short, anyway, I want to go ahead and wish all the archers, officials, tournament crew and parents the best for this years JOAD Nationals. Lets pray for no rain, we had enough at the SI Cup!!!!!! I am just sorry I couldn't be there again this year but as a working parent we can't always take off from our jobs when we would like to, so wifey takes Nationals and I take Target Championships, so I will be in Ohio in a month!

Does anyone know if there has there been any unofficial word or posting of scores? I have had periodic updates all afternoon how Andrea did, but would like to hear how the others are doing as well.

I also want to throw out to Cindy and all of her crew a huge THANK YOU! I know first hand how a few words of thanks can make you feel all the hard work is worth it, especially once the tournament has gotten underway. Again Thank you for all your hard work!!!!!

BTW, for those who suffered the muck and muddy mire in Carbondale---the field has recovered and doesn't look like we ever stepped foot on it. Also, we all need to be thankful the SI Cup wasn't the following weekend as a very severe storm rolled through on May 8th (it was tagged as inland hurricane) with top wind speed clocked at 106. Power was out in C'dale and Marion for several days.

D


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## Jim C (Oct 15, 2002)

Based purely on memory

Junior men's compound-Ben Cleland of Ohio has a pretty good lead

Junior Men's recurve, Forrest and Aaron were trading the lead

Junior Girls-I recall seeing Michigan's Jessica Gibbs near the top maybe second-don't recall the rest

Cadet Boys recurve-Matt Zumbo was near the top most of the day with three CJO shooters all near him-I think Sean Curtin was in second, behind Matt, with Daniel McLaughlin in third sean McLaughlin was at the top at one point but dropped to 5th or 6th

Cub girls recurve-Morgan Todd of Columbus was in first last I checked

Bowman Boys recurve-Joshua Moscow (Sp) was leading, Austin Reifstek of my club was in second with my son Ian around 3rd or 4th

since I did not see the last two ends posted on the leader board, this is all preliminary-most of the recurve divisions were pretty close-for example in bowman-it was less than 30 points between first and 6th-unlike last year where the winner-Lucas P had a massive lead over Ian after Day one.

same with the cadet boys-very close-whoever has the best run at 50M will probably win. 

Of the divisions I recall, Cleland appeared the most dominant.


Helen Sahi was helping run the cub-bowman line and her son was leading the boys cadet compound I believe. I also believe Miranda Leak was winning girls cadet recurve

Hunter Jackson was pulling a Michelle Ragsdale-she was leading compound cub and then shot the recurve where she was on the leader board the times I Checked.

--


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## Huntmaster (Jan 30, 2003)

I talked to Miranda tonight. She said the wind was brutal today while the recurves shot. 20-30 mph  She still managed to set a new JOAD record at both distances! 

This has been a first time experience for my mother. Grandma volunteered to accompany Miranda to this tournament (I'm in much the same boat as dajalo is, and my mother needs to get away from work for a change  ), and she has been having a great time. The archers and families have been terrific.


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## sundevilarchery (May 27, 2005)

*AZ Shooters*

Got to give a SHOUT OUT to our AZ shooters... GOOD LUCK ALL!:shade:

KJ


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## Serious Fun (May 12, 2003)

What do folks think about conducting the JOAD nationals over the 4th of July weekend?


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## Xcreekarchery1 (Aug 7, 2007)

ok the unofficial results for the cadet male recurve are;
1st. matt zumbo with a 1229
2nd sean curtan with a 1195
and 3rd chris luman (me  ) with a 1191


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## Jim C (Oct 15, 2002)

Nice shooting Chris. I think that was correct, Matt pulled away while Sean Curtin from my club kept his narrow hold on second, while Chris edged out Daniel McLaughin of my club. Only a few points separated 2-3-4.

In Bowman boys, Josh Moskow held on to first while Austin Reifstek of my club held on to second. My son was in third-dropped to 7th came back for fourth but i cannot recall the third place finisher's name. 3-4-5-6 were just a few points apart. 9 year old Hardy Trafford, shooting without a sight was fully competitive and his sisters were shooting well too

I think Aaron Henslin, Forrest Blakely and Peter Kelchner were the top three in junior. Jessica Gibbs won junior ladies, and Manning Baumgartner's student-Morgan Todd took cub ladies-a deserving win for a wonderful kid.

Sam Wunder of Hall's joined his bowman recurve teammate in the winner's circle in cub. Miranda Leek won cadet girls


The wind was pretty tough today.


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## Jim C (Oct 15, 2002)

Serious Fun said:


> What do folks think about conducting the JOAD nationals over the 4th of July weekend?


I would prefer the last weekend of June which was normally what was the date we used when we ran it in 06. Any earlier and you run into the NYS regent's exams (Orlando 05 had that problem) and July 4th weekend means gas gouging at its worst!!


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## Huntmaster (Jan 30, 2003)

Sure wish there were some official results being posted  Thanks for the updates Jim


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## archerymom2 (Mar 28, 2008)

On the other hand, July 4 weekend requires parents to take one fewer days off work, as most people have a holiday... I'd vote for that, since we have to take off so much time for tournaments throughout the year.


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## coach1 (Apr 14, 2003)

*Unofficial Results and photos*

Tournament pictures are up on-line including the final leader boards. 

As usual you can see them on the archery photo links at www.dolphin-sys.com

and directly at www.dolphin-sys.com/Photo Galleries/2009/

Enjoy

Gary


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## Archery Mom (Apr 2, 2003)

i want to take a moment and tell the crew here "Thank You" for all of your hard work and dedication here this weekend. You have put on a awesome event. The judges have worked hard and made this run very smoothly and have been very helpful to all the archers this weekend.

Congrats to all the archers this weekend. The wind on the 1st two days of the event were pounding to say the least, but you adapted and overcame and hopefully had a great weekend with old friends and new.

The Compounds are warming up now for the or rounds.. so this should start on time and so far we only have a breeze.

I also want to take a moment and tell all of our Junior archers that are aging out that we wish you all the very best in your archery as an adult and we hope that you will keep shooting through out you life and most of all through college, i was enlightened this weekend on the events and opportunities that are out there for college archers.. very exciting.. looking forward to CAP this fall.
and last but not least.. a huge shou tout to my daughter Samantha, our student and adopted daughter Kailey Johnston, We are so proud of both of young ladies and your accomplishments this weekend.

Georgia is very very proud of Samantha, Kailey, Chris Luman,Garrett Abernethy, Aaron Henslin and Cara Henslin all of you rocked this weekend.


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## Poolgy (Jan 12, 2007)

:thumbs_up
I will add a congrats for the GA Archers. Keep it up your only getting started!


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## Landed in AZ (May 11, 2008)

*OR Round Results-Recurve*

Sorry, don't know the compound results...This is from my very fried memory so I hope I am getting this right. If I get it wrong I am sure someone can correct me very quickly.Congrats to all the shooters. The wind was better today but still a little tricky. Very tough field to shoot on.

Jr. Women:

1. Lauren Hughes
2. Holly Stover
3. Kayla Debord

Jr. Men:

1. Peter Kelchner
2. Aaron Henslin
3. Forrest Blakely

Cadet Women:

1. Kiley Larrick
2. Miranda Leek
3. Heather Trafford

Cadet Men:

1. Nathan Yamaguchi
2. Chris Luman
3. Matt Zumbo


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## coach1 (Apr 14, 2003)

*Photos Day 3*

Photos from Day 3 at JOAD Nationals / Jr US Open are posted.

As usual you can see them on the archery photo links at www.dolphin-sys.com

and directly at www.dolphin-sys.com/Photo Galleries/2009/

Enjoy

Gary


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## Landed in AZ (May 11, 2008)

Landed in AZ said:


> Sorry, don't know the compound results...This is from my very fried memory so I hope I am getting this right. If I get it wrong I am sure someone can correct me very quickly.Congrats to all the shooters. The wind was better today but still a little tricky. Very tough field to shoot on.
> 
> Jr. Women:
> 
> ...


I stand corrected...Jessica Gibbs was 3rd in the Jr. Women Recurve. Sorry Jessica.


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## Serious Fun (May 12, 2003)

Kiley and Nathan, Congratulations to the Arizona 09 USAA YWC team members!


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## Jim C (Oct 15, 2002)

This year the FITA determined the national champions while the FITA and the OR were combined for USAT standings which makes sense to me. 

A few problems developed on the last day. The field was facing west which became an issue when the recurve event went 3 hours past the scheduled end due to several issues. Those issues included not enough targets to run both the first round of the juniors and cadets at the same time (the size of the field was such that the upper field could not accommodate targets beyond 50M). The second issue was a protest that delayed the OR after it had started by at least 40 minutes-apparently three girls on the cadet line were involved in a "failure to communicate" and did not know they were supposed to shoot at a certain time. The parents blamed the DOS for this "failure to communicate", the opinions of others were that everyone else was up on the line shooting. I wasn't on the jury so I didn't hear all the issues but I note that OR rounds at US JOAD Nationals are often confusing affairs and it is imperative that the athletes pay upmost attention to what is going on which is what I advised my three athletes and coaches and parents need to pay attention as well. The judges, are almost uniformly, friendly and helpful and it never hurts to ask a judge if you are confused about the shooting order. 

The judges and the tournament director did very good jobs IMHO. The wand round for the bowmen seemed to be enjoyed by everyone and for a new event, was run rather smoothly. The trophies were thoughtful and generous-last year's event had small medals-this year's, in keeping with what I have seen with most of the other JOAD Nationals, featured plaques for the FITA winners (I didn't see what the OR received). 

I think most of the archers believe that one line is preferable to the two line used here-I understand why it was used and for most clubs, it is far easier and requires far less targets. However, two lines means a much longer day for coaches, judges, staff, etc and if there is a problem or a delay, means that the afternoon line shoots well past the anticipated finish. It also limits the ability to hold a team round which was the case in this tournament-no team round.

I want to pass on something I observed that involved LAS owner Rob Kauthold. A young lady brought a new hoyt bow and limbs she had obtained from her local dealer in Washington and it had some issues. Rob must have spent at least an hour doing everything possible to get the bow set up properly and then I believed he completely checked out her main bow as well. The limbs appeared to have some issues to me when he asked me to examine it. My wife and I have been doing business with Rob and his staff for more than a decade now and you would be hard pressed to find a more honorable and caring person in the business. As I noted earlier, the banquet he hosted for the tournament was probably the best side event I have attended at the 7 or so JOAD nationals I have attended.


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## Huntmaster (Jan 30, 2003)

Jim C said:


> apparently three girls on the cadet line were involved in a "failure to communicate" and did not know they were supposed to shoot at a certain time. The parents blamed the DOS for this "failure to communicate", the opinions of others were that everyone else was up on the line shooting. I wasn't on the jury so I didn't hear all the issues but I note that OR rounds at US JOAD Nationals are often confusing affairs and it is imperative that the athletes pay upmost attention to what is going on which is what I advised my three athletes and coaches and parents need to pay attention as well.


From what I heard, the PA system wasn't reaching the cadet line. If there is going to be a tricky OR system, then there needs to be an announcment explaining the process. Those that made up the plan understand it, but those that walk into it might not, which I would immagine was partly the problem.


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## Jim C (Oct 15, 2002)

Huntmaster said:


> From what I heard, the PA system wasn't reaching the cadet line. If there is going to be a tricky OR system, then there needs to be an announcment explaining the process. Those that made up the plan understand it, but those that walk into it might not, which I would immagine was partly the problem.


Hard to say-I was down at the LAS Booth helping Rob with the bow I described above and I knew when my athletes had to shoot. I believe the problem happened in the 8ths, meaning all 16 boys and 13 of the girls were ready and on the line when the signal to shoot was given. 

I am not blaming anyone. I am merely noting that athletes and their coaches need to be vigilant because this sort of stuff happens frequently.


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## Huntmaster (Jan 30, 2003)

I just have to post a big congradulatinons to Miranda Leek (the lonely Iowa shooter)! Even through tough winds, she shot several record scores at this tournament, only missing the 40M record by 4 points! After all the dust has settled (or at least the wind blew it away  ), she shot Gold in the FITA, Silver in the OR, and first overall. Way to go kiddo!!!! :thumbs_up :wav:


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## Jim C (Oct 15, 2002)

Huntmaster said:


> I just have to post a big congradulatinons to Miranda Leek (the lonely Iowa shooter)! Even through tough winds, she shot several record scores at this tournament, only missing the 40M record by 4 points! After all the dust has settled (or at least the wind blew it away  ), she shot Gold in the FITA, Silver in the OR, and first overall. Way to go kiddo!!!!


But she forgot to bring some slings :sad: 

Bring plenty to Ohio, I need to stock up


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## Huntmaster (Jan 30, 2003)

Jim C said:


> But she forgot to bring some slings :sad:
> 
> Bring plenty to Ohio, I need to stock up


You got it Jim. I'll make sure to bring them. I acutally intercept her in OH on the way back from another tournament.


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## BigArcher0414 (Mar 8, 2009)

I was on the Cadet Male compound line and it was hard to hear anything. I had no idea what to do all weekend. After asking fellow archers things got easier but it would have been nice if the days where more explained for us newbies at the compeition. Other than that it was a great competition!


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## Serious Fun (May 12, 2003)

BigArcher0414 said:


> I was on the Cadet Male compound line and it was hard to hear anything. I had no idea what to do all weekend. After asking fellow archers things got easier but it would have been nice if the days where more explained for us newbies at the compeition. Other than that it was a great competition!


Sound system and announcements. It has been my experience that “PA sound people” are not familiar with what we do and how we do it. “PA sound people” are correct to say that their systems will easily reach a hundred yards but they fail to understand the we want to broadcast at a “uniformly” level across a 600 feet wide by 500 feet deep area. PA sound people typically locate a cluster in the middle of the field which results in the archers in the middle of field with painfully high decibels levels while the outlying areas of the archer canopies cannot hear announcements. The solution is to distribute speakers uniformly across the field with speakers coverage at the canopies and shooting line as well as speakers directed towards the target line. 

It is often difficult to provide multiple “powered” speakers that require a 110/120 volt power to each speaker. An alternative is to use a 200+Amp PA amplifier connected to several 70 Volt transformer speakers. These are the types of speakers you find in a department store and school intercom systems. Many of the horn style speaker are 70 volt and waterproof. 70V systems do not render quality music but they do a great job for PA. Experience, a priceless commodity.

That having been said, systems are what they are. Often a tourney director has little choice but to use what is made available to them. In such cases, alternative methods can be used such as asking all the archers to gather at the DOS stand for detailed instruction and a question and answer session. Such gather around the DOS sessions are great for beginners and their families as not all JOAD clubs are able to well prepare their archers. We do what we can.


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## BigArcher0414 (Mar 8, 2009)

Serious Fun said:


> Sound system and announcements. It has been my experience that “PA sound people” are not familiar with what we do and how we do it. “PA sound people” are correct to say that their systems will easily reach a hundred yards but they fail to understand the we want to broadcast at a “uniformly” level across a 600 feet wide by 500 feet deep area. PA sound people typically locate a cluster in the middle of the field which results in the archers in the middle of field with painfully high decibels levels while the outlying areas of the archer canopies cannot hear announcements. The solution is to distribute speakers uniformly across the field with speakers coverage at the canopies and shooting line as well as speakers directed towards the target line.
> 
> It is often difficult to provide multiple “powered” speakers that require a 110/120 volt power to each speaker. An alternative is to use a 200+Amp PA amplifier connected to several 70 Volt transformer speakers. These are the types of speakers you find in a department store and school intercom systems. Many of the horn style speaker are 70 volt and waterproof. 70V systems do not render quality music but they do a great job for PA. Experience, a priceless commodity.
> 
> That having been said, systems are what they are. Often a tourney director has little choice but to use what is made available to them. In such cases, alternative methods can be used such as asking all the archers to gather at the DOS stand for detailed instruction and a question and answer session. Such gather around the DOS sessions are great for beginners and their families as not all JOAD clubs are able to well prepare their archers. We do what we can.


I totally agree with you. If they would have been informative and had a meeting for the new members and families i think the tournament would have been in a lot better hands. Other than those little qwerks it was a great turnout!


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## Serious Fun (May 12, 2003)

Jim C said:


> ...The second issue was a protest that delayed the OR after it had started by at least 40 minutes-apparently three girls on the cadet line were involved in a "failure to communicate" and did not know they were supposed to shoot at a certain time...


Jim, as I recall, a group of compound male juniors at the 2007 JOAD Nationals Chula Vista missed their OR matches claiming that they did not hear the announcements. A protest was filed and addressed that all resulted in a delay of the tourney. I suggest that the best reason to provide a good sound system is to avoid delaying the hundreds of archers and their families that spend thousands of dollars to take part in a championship tourney. 

But again, tourney hosts do the best job they can with the resources available. We have yet to find a way to just snap our fingers and equipment appears without raising entry fees.


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## Serious Fun (May 12, 2003)

Jim C said:


> ...As I noted earlier, the banquet he (Rob K of Lancaster Archery) hosted for the tournament was probably the best side event I have attended at the 7 or so JOAD nationals I have attended.


Thank you Rob!
Now its time to begin planning for the 2010 JOAD National Championship!


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## Jim C (Oct 15, 2002)

Serious Fun said:


> Jim, as I recall, a group of compound male juniors at the 2007 JOAD Nationals Chula Vista missed their OR matches claiming that they did not hear the announcements. A protest was filed and addressed that all resulted in a delay of the tourney. I suggest that the best reason to provide a good sound system is to avoid delaying the hundreds of archers and their families that spend thousands of dollars to take part in a championship tourney.
> 
> But again, tourney hosts do the best job they can with the resources available. We have yet to find a way to just snap our fingers and equipment appears without raising entry fees.


Don't recall-we left the venue before the compound archers shot. We are lucky. Darrell Pace, in addition to being an expert when it comes to running archery tournaments is a professional level tech when it comes to sound systems. We have never had such issues at our events but I do know that other venues do not always have the same quality PA systems that DP sets for ours.


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## Landed in AZ (May 11, 2008)

Jim C said:


> This year the FITA determined the national champions while the FITA and the OR were combined for USAT standings which makes sense to me.
> 
> A few problems developed on the last day. The field was facing west which became an issue when the recurve event went 3 hours past the scheduled end due to several issues. Those issues included not enough targets to run both the first round of the juniors and cadets at the same time (the size of the field was such that the upper field could not accommodate targets beyond 50M). The second issue was a protest that delayed the OR after it had started by at least 40 minutes-apparently three girls on the cadet line were involved in a "failure to communicate" and did not know they were supposed to shoot at a certain time. The parents blamed the DOS for this "failure to communicate", the opinions of others were that everyone else was up on the line shooting. I wasn't on the jury so I didn't hear all the issues but I note that OR rounds at US JOAD Nationals are often confusing affairs and it is imperative that the athletes pay upmost attention to what is going on which is what I advised my three athletes and coaches and parents need to pay attention as well. The judges, are almost uniformly, friendly and helpful and it never hurts to ask a judge if you are confused about the shooting order.
> 
> ...



This is about the 5th story I have heard about this protest. I know that one parent was upset when JDT Dad gave what he had been told as the reason for the protest. This parent blew up and I asked him to calm down and he pointed at JDT Dad and said I know what he is like, I have seen his posts. 

I couldn't believe it. I have some issues with some people on AT and even went as far as to call someone a jerk recently but I know enough to know that things come across differently from a key board then the intent or what that person is truly like. To completely judge someone based on posts on AT is silly. I was reminded of that this weekend. 

I judge people on how I see them interact with their children at a tournament and how they act towards the general archery community at a tournament. If you are going to treat your child poorly because they are in a slump and not shooting well or they lost a round or shot a poor score on an end/entire FITA. That says a lot about who you are and what you are like. Let's try to remember that folks.


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## Jim C (Oct 15, 2002)

Landed in AZ said:


> This is about the 5th story I have heard about this protest. I know that one parent was upset when JDT Dad gave what he had been told as the reason for the protest. This parent blew up and I asked him to calm down and he pointed at JDT Dad and said I know what he is like, I have seen his posts.
> 
> I couldn't believe it. I have some issues with some people on AT and even went as far as to call someone a jerk recently but I know enough to know that things come across differently from a key board then the intent or what that person is truly like. To completely judge someone based on posts on AT is silly. I was reminded of that this weekend.
> 
> I judge people on how I see them interact with their children at a tournament and how they act towards the general archery community at a tournament. If you are going to treat your child poorly because they are in a slump and not shooting well or they lost a round or shot a poor score on an end/entire FITA. That says a lot about who you are and what you are like. Let's try to remember that folks.


I was merely relating what two of the judges told me and what I heard from one of the irate parents who butted in when I was explaining why the delay and protest happened to one of the parents of my athletes-archers who-like your daughter-had to wait around while this protest was being resolved. I can also relate that one of the judges-I won't mention names-noted that the protest would delay the shoot perhaps an hour and one of the parents said "I dont care". I was there when that was said.

Again I don't blame anyone. I have filed a protest on behalf of my archers before, I have sat on at least a dozen juries, I have been a COJ or DOS etc. The bottom line is that archers need to pay attention to what is going on.

IIRC your daughter was on the line and shooting at the time this matter transpired? She apparently knew it was time to shoot as did most of the other ladies. 

The archer from Cleveland made a good point about a meeting telling everyone what was happening. That is a smart thing to do. IF rules are explained, and the rules are then followed, you preclude people complaining about not knowing what is going on.


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## 3Three (Jan 24, 2009)

Huntmaster said:


> I just have to post a big congradulatinons to Miranda Leek (the lonely Iowa shooter)! Even through tough winds, she shot several record scores at this tournament, only missing the 40M record by 4 points! After all the dust has settled (or at least the wind blew it away  ), she shot Gold in the FITA, Silver in the OR, and first overall. Way to go kiddo!!!! :thumbs_up :wav:


Bridger Deaton from Iowa was there also. Placed third (cadet compound) in the FITA and got the bronze in the OR. Congratulations Miranda great shooting as usual.


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## Landed in AZ (May 11, 2008)

Jim C said:


> I was merely relating what two of the judges told me and what I heard from one of the irate parents who butted in when I was explaining why the delay and protest happened to one of the parents of my athletes-archers who-like your daughter-had to wait around while this protest was being resolved. I can also relate that one of the judges-I won't mention names-noted that the protest would delay the shoot perhaps an hour and one of the parents said "I dont care". I was there when that was said.
> 
> Again I don't blame anyone. I have filed a protest on behalf of my archers before, I have sat on at least a dozen juries, I have been a COJ or DOS etc. The bottom line is that archers need to pay attention to what is going on.
> 
> ...


You are correct. There were lots of archers on the line and we did not find it all that confusing. If Kiley did not hear what was being said by the DOS she asked. But she has been shooting for 6 years and maybe that is the difference. There were lots of archers on the line and it was the third round of the OR. So I am not sure what caused the confusion since you could hear the DOS from where the Cadet girls were shooting from. You could not hear from the spectator tents but during ORs that is not (IMO) the place for archers. The OR round "should" move too quickly for them to go up in the spectator area.


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## northpawmom (Apr 26, 2009)

I'd like to send a congratulations to Kiley Larrick also !!!! Way to go in the OR round. Bring that determination to Utah with you!!! Best of luck to you there.:thumbs_up:banana:

Donna Blake
Em's mom


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## Jim C (Oct 15, 2002)

Landed in AZ said:


> You are correct. There were lots of archers on the line and we did not find it all that confusing. If Kiley did not hear what was being said by the DOS she asked. But she has been shooting for 6 years and maybe that is the difference. There were lots of archers on the line and it was the third round of the OR. So I am not sure what caused the confusion since you could hear the DOS from where the Cadet girls were shooting from. You could not hear from the spectator tents but during ORs that is not (IMO) the place for archers. The OR round "should" move too quickly for them to go up in the spectator area.


As I noted, I was down at the LAS tent, helping Rob with a problematic GMX and 990 Limbs. I heard when the matches were starting and while that was certainly as far from the Cadet line as the spectator tents behind the cadet line. However, my son did not hear it on the Bowman line or that upper field. Of course, one would assume that a cadet participating in an OR would not be on the bowman-cub field.


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## Jim C (Oct 15, 2002)

northpawmom said:


> I'd like to send a congratulations to Kiley Larrick also !!!! Way to go in the OR round. Bring that determination to Utah with you!!! Best of luck to you there.:thumbs_up:banana:
> 
> Donna Blake
> Em's mom


Yep, Kiley's a very good OR competitor. One of my club's kids (Daniel McL) is on that team. We had a local paper come over to our house (where the CJO archers practice during the summer) and interview Daniel, his twin brother and DT member Sean as well as Sean Curtin (who was second in the cadet FITA and a semi-finalist in the OR).


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## Huntmaster (Jan 30, 2003)

3Three said:


> Bridger Deaton from Iowa was there also. Placed third (cadet compound) in the FITA and got the bronze in the OR. Congratulations Miranda great shooting as usual.


DANG!!!!! I've :BangHead: for not already knowing that :embara:

Congradulations to Bridger Deaton for a GREAT tournament! :thumbs_up :wav:


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## Springfield (Jul 7, 2009)

*The Protest*



Jim C said:


> I wasn't on the jury so I didn't hear all the issues but I note that OR rounds at US JOAD Nationals are often confusing affairs and it is imperative that the athletes pay upmost attention to what is going on which is what I advised my three athletes and coaches and parents need to pay attention as well. The judges, are almost uniformly, friendly and helpful and it never hurts to ask a judge if you are confused about the shooting order.
> 
> 
> Actually there were many parents around, including me, who believed this was an issue with the DOS. There were many complaints issued to the DOS over the 4 days that the announcements could not be heard. Remember there were 3-4 vendor generators running next to the shooting line.
> ...


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## Springfield (Jul 7, 2009)

*Congratulations*

Congratulations to Miranda and Kiley, you're both going to do great in UTAH!!!!

Go team USA!


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## Landed in AZ (May 11, 2008)

Springfield said:


> Jim C said:
> 
> 
> > I wasn't on the jury so I didn't hear all the issues but I note that OR rounds at US JOAD Nationals are often confusing affairs and it is imperative that the athletes pay upmost attention to what is going on which is what I advised my three athletes and coaches and parents need to pay attention as well. The judges, are almost uniformly, friendly and helpful and it never hurts to ask a judge if you are confused about the shooting order.
> ...


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## JDT_Dad (Nov 5, 2008)

Landed in AZ said:


> Springfield said:
> 
> 
> > Thanks for that info. I had asked Kiley and she said that the girl who had the shooter that missed the line was told by the judge that it was a practice end for her only. She went down and told everyone that it was a practice end. Very few of the girls believed her but others did believe her and went to the judge. The judge simply double checked with the DOS as it was confusion that was introduced down at the line. This is just one of the many stories I have heard. Please don't jump on me. I am just relating what I had heard. May or not be reality.
> ...


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## Serious Fun (May 12, 2003)

Serious Fun said:


> ...But again, tourney hosts do the best job they can with the resources available. We have yet to find a way to just snap our fingers and equipment appears without raising entry fees.


Ideally there should be back up PA systems, Back up Timers, Back up power, Back up targets, Back up canopies, Back up Judges, back up computers, back up printers, back up scoring entering teams, back up internet posters...everything should have a back up. But again, who can afford it? 

It takes 80 to 100 or more targets and a field that is large enough set them all up to host a 16 category JOAD National Championship with 12 OR categories plus a practice field. An option would be to conduct a Bowman/Cub Championship and a separate Cadet/Junior Championship. By doing so, more archers can be accommodated and it is more likely that a tourney host can find a field that can be set up with 64 targets plus a practice range. It also allows the Bowman/Cub Championship to be more personal achievement focused so that the young archers can focus on proper shot execution and form.


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## Jim C (Oct 15, 2002)

Serious Fun said:


> Ideally there should be back up PA systems, Back up Timers, Back up power, Back up targets, Back up canopies, Back up Judges, back up computers, back up printers, back up scoring entering teams, back up internet posters...everything should have a back up. But again, who can afford it?
> 
> It takes 80 to 100 or more targets and a field that is large enough set them all up to host a 16 category JOAD National Championship with 12 OR categories plus a practice field. An option would be to conduct a Bowman/Cub Championship and a separate Cadet/Junior Championship. By doing so, more archers can be accommodated and it is more likely that a tourney host can find a field that can be set up with 64 targets plus a practice range. It also allows the Bowman/Cub Championship to be more personal achievement focused so that the young archers can focus on proper shot execution and form.




an interesting suggestion but since even some of the high level coaches are volunteers and many of us have both bowmen and cadets, or cubs and Junios, that means yet another weekend of travel and a couple vacation days eaten up.

I won't rehash with you the failure to hold a team round etc, Cindy did a great job with what she had to work with but some clubs have proven they can put on tournaments with plenty of targets, proper PA systems and an experienced tournament staff that knows how to run both the individual events and team rounds. HOPEFULLY the NAA will understand that and award the JOAD nationals to clubs that have such a proven track record.


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## drewb2 (Jul 7, 2009)

Great Time all kids had a blast 
thanks to Cindy


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## Serious Fun (May 12, 2003)

Jim C said:


> an interesting suggestion but since even some of the high level coaches are volunteers and many of us have both bowmen and cadets, or cubs and Junios, that means yet another weekend of travel and a couple vacation days eaten up.
> 
> I won't rehash with you the failure to hold a team round etc, Cindy did a great job with what she had to work with but some clubs have proven they can put on tournaments with plenty of targets, proper PA systems and an experienced tournament staff that knows how to run both the individual events and team rounds. HOPEFULLY the NAA will understand that and award the JOAD nationals to clubs that have such a proven track record.


I think we should grow the number of experienced tournament hosts so that tournament can eventually take place in multiple places in every state. It makes sense to me that tourneys be held in as wide a variety of locations as possible to better expose the sport and ultimately grow the sport so that what the JOAD do is made to be important and well known. The problem is $$$. How many places besides Central CA, AZ, Texas, Georgia, New Jersey and Ohio host multiple major tourneys? Having only six places in the entire USA is sad. I hope places like OK City and PA, the host of the last two JOAD nationals host other major tourneys now that they have some experience with what is arguably the most difficult of all tourneys to host. I have high hopes for the New England area because they have some committed folks up there. Maybe 2013? Utah should is going to be very experience after hosting the YWC and World Cups. Grow, Grow, Grow… We need to grow because existing places eventually age out. For instance Denver, no tourneys took place there after the 2003 JOAD Nationals. As soon as a new place come on board, one drops off as the leadership retires. We can put all of our eggs in one basket.


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## Serious Fun (May 12, 2003)

Serious Fun said:


> I think we should grow the number of experienced tournament hosts so that tournament can eventually take place in multiple places in every state. It makes sense to me that tourneys be held in as wide a variety of locations as possible to better expose the sport and ultimately grow the sport so that what the JOAD do is made to be important and well known. The problem is $$$. How many places besides Central CA, AZ, Texas, Georgia, New Jersey and Ohio host multiple major tourneys? Having only six places in the entire USA is sad. I hope places like OK City and PA, the host of the last two JOAD nationals host other major tourneys now that they have some experience with what is arguably the most difficult of all tourneys to host. I have high hopes for the New England area because they have some committed folks up there. Maybe 2013? Utah should is going to be very experience after hosting the YWC and World Cups. Grow, Grow, Grow… We need to grow because existing places eventually age out. For instance Denver, no tourneys took place there after the 2003 JOAD Nationals. As soon as a new place come on board, one drops off as the leadership retires. We can put all of our eggs in one basket.


Opps, I wanted to say that we should not put all of our eggs in one basket. If we rely on a small handful of tourney host, what do we do when they retire? The example is the same as churches and JOAD itself. When churches do not actively recruit new members, eventually the members grow older and older and as the members pass away, the church dies with it. The same can be side of JOAD. If we focus on Cadets and Junior and ignore Bowman and Cub, eventually there will be few JOAD until there are none. So when it comes to tournament host, we need to attract new members to the tournament hosting ranks. Grow or die.


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## Jim C (Oct 15, 2002)

Serious Fun said:


> I think we should grow the number of experienced tournament hosts so that tournament can eventually take place in multiple places in every state. It makes sense to me that tourneys be held in as wide a variety of locations as possible to better expose the sport and ultimately grow the sport so that what the JOAD do is made to be important and well known. The problem is $$$. How many places besides Central CA, AZ, Texas, Georgia, New Jersey and Ohio host multiple major tourneys? Having only six places in the entire USA is sad. I hope places like OK City and PA, the host of the last two JOAD nationals host other major tourneys now that they have some experience with what is arguably the most difficult of all tourneys to host. I have high hopes for the New England area because they have some committed folks up there. Maybe 2013? Utah should is going to be very experience after hosting the YWC and World Cups. Grow, Grow, Grow… We need to grow because existing places eventually age out. For instance Denver, no tourneys took place there after the 2003 JOAD Nationals. As soon as a new place come on board, one drops off as the leadership retires. We can put all of our eggs in one basket.


\
If you mean growing involves say slighting the bids of clubs who have a proven track record of hosting top flight events in favor of novice clubs I disagree. Some clubs have buiilt up the ability to run major events and if you give bids to clubs that have not, the former clubs will probably react by not bidding in the future. In some areas, there is a need for a club to be able to run major events-the East has the Gold Cup but we both know the issues involving JOAD nationals.


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## youknowwho (Jul 8, 2009)

I thought it was a great tournament. One of the better ones I have been to.

The staff was very friendly and I didn't have any issues with any of the organizers or judges. 

I think limbwalker was right... You recurvers are kind of a whiney bunch aren't you? At least someone from the east put a bid in for this tournament and it didn't go to disney world like it did a few years ago.


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## Jim C (Oct 15, 2002)

youknowwho said:


> I thought it was a great tournament. One of the better ones I have been to.
> 
> The staff was very friendly and I didn't have any issues with any of the organizers or judges.
> 
> I think limbwalker was right... You recurvers are kind of a whiney bunch aren't you? At least someone from the east put a bid in for this tournament and it didn't go to disney world like it did a few years ago.


LOL-no name, no profile, one post.


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## jhinaz (Mar 1, 2003)

I realize the winners are listed in post #45 but is the "complete" OR results listed some place? - John


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## Mr. October (Feb 15, 2003)

Jim C said:


> \
> If you mean growing involves say slighting the bids of clubs who have a proven track record of hosting top flight events in favor of novice clubs I disagree. Some clubs have buiilt up the ability to run major events and if you give bids to clubs that have not, the former clubs will probably react by not bidding in the future. In some areas, there is a need for a club to be able to run major events-the East has the Gold Cup but we both know the issues involving JOAD nationals.


On the other hand . . . if the same clubs get handed all the big shoots every year and can always count on getting another big shoot no matter what . . . well "no matter what" is going to happen. Better to keep bidding open and competitive. All of the clubs with a proven track record held their first shoot at one time or another.


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## northpawmom (Apr 26, 2009)

I have to ask. Why isn't it run like the indoor nationals? You know each region does their own thing and then they are combined. I know it fun to see everyone and have the competition head to head like it is outdoors, but it is a way where maybe more people would be able to participate, that can't afford to travel. :lightbulb Course I realize that the elements are involved with the scores, rain, shine, humid, cold all of those but.....


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## Serious Fun (May 12, 2003)

northpawmom said:


> I have to ask. Why isn't it run like the indoor nationals? You know each region does their own thing and then they are combined. I know it fun to see everyone and have the competition head to head like it is outdoors, but it is a way where maybe more people would be able to participate, that can't afford to travel. :lightbulb Course I realize that the elements are involved with the scores, rain, shine, humid, cold all of those but.....


I think it would be great to add regional events to the calendar but I think national championships should be all together in one place at one time. In fact, I think the indoor natioanls should be in one place at one time so the conditions including officiating, lighting, timing is the same for everyone. One option is to create regional qualifyers with the top in each region moving on to the national championships. In a dream world such a national championship would be great as a world team trials tourney if the regionals could take place the year before in November or early December.


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## Springfield (Jul 7, 2009)

"One option is to create regional qualifyers with the top in each region moving on to the national championships. In a dream world such a national championship would be great as a world team trials tourney if the regionals could take place the year before in November or early December. "


I love this idea!


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## voxito (Apr 16, 2006)

Springfield said:


> "One option is to create regional qualifyers with the top in each region moving on to the national championships. In a dream world such a national championship would be great as a world team trials tourney if the regionals could take place the year before in November or early December. "
> 
> 
> I love this idea!


While it would be easier to run, most kids like joad nationals because they can talk to and shoot with their friends from other parts of the country that they never get to see.


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## Jim C (Oct 15, 2002)

voxito said:


> While it would be easier to run, most kids like joad nationals because they can talk to and shoot with their friends from other parts of the country that they never get to see.


Bingo. My son Ian enjoys that part the best. Last week, we had a young man-the one who was featured on a thread here concerning a fundraiser-sit with us. Great kidand I suspect Ian and Kiran will be buddies for all of their archery careers. Same with the boy from Hall's Arrows who was the winner and was on the same target with Ian.


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## Jim C (Oct 15, 2002)

Mr. October said:


> On the other hand . . . if the same clubs get handed all the big shoots every year and can always count on getting another big shoot no matter what . . . well "no matter what" is going to happen. Better to keep bidding open and competitive. All of the clubs with a proven track record held their first shoot at one time or another.


True enough. If a club is not doing a good job than that is a legitimate reason to give the bid to another club. That was not the scenario I was speaking of.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Jim,

I want to personally thank you and Liz for "hosting" Kiran and his mom. That was such a nice thing, and I completely expected you guys would be that gracious. I received a nice e-mail from Kiran's mom today saying how wonderful their experience was, especially due to the hospitality you and Liz showed them. I told her that we target archers really are one big family and I think she understands that now. We may snipe and bicker at times, poke fun when we can, but in the end, we all look out for each other when it comes right down to it. 

Thanks buddy.

John.


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## Jim C (Oct 15, 2002)

limbwalker said:


> Jim,
> 
> I want to personally thank you and Liz for "hosting" Kiran and his mom. That was such a nice thing, and I completely expected you guys would be that gracious. I received a nice e-mail from Kiran's mom today saying how wonderful their experience was, especially due to the hospitality you and Liz showed them. I told her that we target archers really are one big family and I think she understands that now. We may snipe and bicker at times, poke fun when we can, but in the end, we all look out for each other when it comes right down to it.
> 
> ...




My family's pleasure. Ian was disappointed that Kiran is not coming to Hamilton and Ian mentioned several times on the way home he hopes Kiran comes to the next outdoor JOAD even though Kiran, I believe, moves up to cub. The boy was great, always had a smile on his face and proved he is one of the very best 12 and under archers in the entire country because this nationals had pretty much all the top dawgs. Ian won the North indoors, Austin beat Ian to win the Ohio indoor and JOAD outdoor so at least from our region, they were the two best and the three kids who finished ahead of Ian in the national indoor were all there too.

Great Kid-a credit to his club and his coaches and parents.


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## Mr. October (Feb 15, 2003)

Jim C said:


> True enough. If a club is not doing a good job than that is a legitimate reason to give the bid to another club. That was not the scenario I was speaking of.


I understand that Jim. Just pointing out the converse of always doing things the same.


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## archerymom2 (Mar 28, 2008)

Springfield said:


> "One option is to create regional qualifyers with the top in each region moving on to the national championships. In a dream world such a national championship would be great as a world team trials tourney if the regionals could take place the year before in November or early December. "
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Xcreekarchery1 (Aug 7, 2007)

you shouldnt have to have a wualifier because the experience of coming in almost last last year gave the the drive to work hard and devote all my time to training for this. if this hadnt happend i wouldnt have double medald at JOAD nationals. also with the improvment of some people (like me) being so drastic it could keep a potential medal winner out of the tournament (probably would have for me) thats my opinion and story.
chris


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## Jim C (Oct 15, 2002)

Xcreekarchery1 said:


> you shouldnt have to have a wualifier because the experience of coming in almost last last year gave the the drive to work hard and devote all my time to training for this. if this hadnt happend i wouldnt have double medald at JOAD nationals. also with the improvment of some people (like me) being so drastic it could keep a potential medal winner out of the tournament (probably would have for me) thats my opinion and story.
> chris


good point and its not like we have 5000 kids signing up for JOAD nationals. This one in PA was much bigger-especially among the younger age divisions than Oklahoma (which had 12 kids in bowman boys recurve) or Chula (3 boys in bowman recurve). Traditionally, the JOAD shoots held in the Midwest (Cincinnati 02 and 06, Chicago 98) and places somewhat-on a national level close to that region like GA and PA are always the most populous because the triangle between Chicago, Cincinnati columbus have more NAA members and JOAD clubs within a days drive than almost anywhere else in the US-a study by the ATA noted that the Indy, Cincy and Columbus area has more dealers within a day's drive than any other place in the USA.


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## Landed in AZ (May 11, 2008)

archerymom2 said:


> Springfield said:
> 
> 
> > "One option is to create regional qualifyers with the top in each region moving on to the national championships. In a dream world such a national championship would be great as a world team trials tourney if the regionals could take place the year before in November or early December. "
> ...


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## Serious Fun (May 12, 2003)

Think outside the box. Don’t assume that things must be the same. Change is not limited. 
For instance, if age classification change in a season, modify the trials process rules to have the competitors compete in the categories they will be in at the championships. 
The JOAD National Outdoor Champions are not required to be chosen in June/July, they could be selected at National Target Championship after regional qualifiers in late June/Early July giving JOADs time to train. 
I am not advocating anything specific; I am only encouraging that people avoid creating phantom limitations.
What makes the USA great is the innovative thinking of its people. The pioneer, we can do it, why not, imagination and spirit. The determination that inspired Lewis and Clarke, the ingenuity of Henry Ford, the vision of John F Kennedy. Be bold, be better.


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## SystechGreg (Feb 18, 2008)

*Aging out*

I would like to reply to the above mentioned age for juniors question. The point is not that my son will be 19 in his senoir year of HS. It is that he will be 18 throughout his senior year. Because his birthday falls in Aug. we chose to hold him out of school for an extra year for maturity reasons. The rule is, as I understand it, that you can only shoot in the junior division for 2 years. You should be allowed to shoot jr. if you are 18 and in HS but that is not how it works. I don't know where people got the impression that I was talking about a 19 year old. If you haven't figured it out yet, I am the one who asked the question at the meeting. During his senior year of HS he will have to shoot with adults, not with kids his own age. Because it is not necessarily the age at the time of competition but the limit of only 2 years as a Jr. For you parents that can't understand, I hope your kids don't fall into this catagory and if they do just wait and see how uncomfortable they are competing at that level at that age, if they decide to compete at all. I was enlightened to by the fact that FITA is really the sticking point and to think that American opinion is going to change the world's FITA rules is beyond belief.


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## Jim C (Oct 15, 2002)

My son Ian was born with a birth defect that required many surgeries. He, as some of you know, is rather small for his age. We had him do an extra year of pre school before starting first grade meaning he will turn 19 his senior year of High School: he will not be able to compete as a JOAD in the last semester or summer of HS before he enters college. I don't think this is an issue. If he cannot compete with seniors who are not eligible to shoot as college archers he has no business complaining. Our seniors in Ohio are generally 30-49 year old married men with full time jobs and children. Kids from well run joad clubs who have received good coaching for several years should, at age 18, be fully able to compete with most of us who are still doing archery as adults. My student, Chelsea Obrebski turned 18 right before the end of 2008. She just graduated HS and won't start Miami U until September meaning she shot our state Indoor, State Field, and next week, our state 900 as a senior lady. OUR JOAD club has an adult division and during the summer, my range is open to anyone --age is not an issue. She is fully competetive and unlike the three other top senior ladies, doesn't have a full time job or (in one case) have a small child to raise.

She has a big advantage IMHO


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## Landed in AZ (May 11, 2008)

SystechGreg said:


> I would like to reply to the above mentioned age for juniors question. The point is not that my son will be 19 in his senoir year of HS. It is that he will be 18 throughout his senior year. Because his birthday falls in Aug. we chose to hold him out of school for an extra year for maturity reasons. The rule is, as I understand it, that you can only shoot in the junior division for 2 years. You should be allowed to shoot jr. if you are 18 and in HS but that is not how it works. I don't know where people got the impression that I was talking about a 19 year old. If you haven't figured it out yet, I am the one who asked the question at the meeting. During his senior year of HS he will have to shoot with adults, not with kids his own age. Because it is not necessarily the age at the time of competition but the limit of only 2 years as a Jr. For you parents that can't understand, I hope your kids don't fall into this catagory and if they do just wait and see how uncomfortable they are competing at that level at that age, if they decide to compete at all. I was enlightened to by the fact that FITA is really the sticking point and to think that American opinion is going to change the world's FITA rules is beyond belief.



I understood your point at the meeting and here. I did not mean to offend. And I am clearly not one to judge your situation. Kiley is finishing her 4th year as a cadet because she only shot one tournament as a cub. She has shot the TX Shootout as a 14 & 15 yr old and the AZ Cup this year. She has shot several tournaments as a Jr when at cub age. She has competed as an adult in a few tournaments as well. Thus we don't really have your perspective. 

I think the JOAD Committee made it clear that they are looking at it and taking into consideration the fact that some folks can be as old as 21 and in high school. So the issue is more then a 18 or 19 yr old in High School.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

> Kids from well run joad clubs who have received good coaching for several years should, at age 18, be fully able to compete with most of us who are still doing archery as adults


Jim, I completely agree. Look at Brady, Tim Cuddihy and David Barnes. 17 and 18 at the Oly. games, with tons of 1300+ scores under their belts. Look at Lee Stewart - shooting 1280's at the age of 17 or a number of talented young ladies who at the age of 17-18 have the ability to shoot with any of the top 10 in the U.S.

With proper training and mental prep., an 18 year old should be as tough to beat as any senior. Maybe even tougher because they don't think about losing anything at that age.

John.


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## Jim Pruitte (May 27, 2002)

limbwalker said:


> With proper training and mental prep., an 18 year old should be as tough to beat as any senior. Maybe even tougher because they don't think about losing anything at that age.
> 
> John.


I agree.


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## Serious Fun (May 12, 2003)

Have a look at this Mexican event. http://www.azjoad.com/2009/2009_Mexico_Junior_Olympics.pdf 
Note how they offer a 19-22 age category. There is no FITA classification for theses ages. Thinking outside the box, wouldn’t it be great to conduct a 19-22 Championship with Canada, USA, Mexico and perhaps Cuba, Puerto Rico and other Caribbean states. Perhaps COPARCO sanctioning can be acquired. Sort of a Pan Am Games for 19-22 archers. 

If this appeals to you, embrace the grassroots nature of the USAA membership lead association and work to make it happen. It helps to foster supportive relationships with others to that your agenda is heard. Note that your efforts will not likely effect you or your immediate family, instead, know that your efforts are to create opportunities for the next generation of archers. During my tenure as a JOAD committee member, I have seen many parents can JOAD come and go. Unfortunately, once they go, their effort to effect change go with them and they leave it to others to take on the effort. When all is said and done, nothing progresses. The next generation of JOADs and their families encounter the same situation that others before them encountered and they wonder the same “whys” until they age out and the cycle repeats over and over again. You can break the cycle. Consider taking on a leadership role. Note that the USAA seeks nominations for BOD candidates and there are many committee to volunteer for. Be proactive. Make a difference.


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## SystechGreg (Feb 18, 2008)

*Aging out*

I do help coach our JOAD club and am working toward a certification. I have run the archery program at our church for several years. It does seem that on the National JOAD level my opinion for 18 yr. olds still in HS is not shared so what's the point. The people who oposed my opinion seem to have a better grasp on the situation than I do. My son unfortunately is not one of the top 10 in the nation so I guess I don't understand.


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## archerymom2 (Mar 28, 2008)

It seems to me that the groups should be made either by grade or by age throughout the program. I think the current ages make more sense than school grades, because kids can get held back or start late, giving them an advantage. But either way, it should be done consistently throughout -- without exceptions for high school seniors. 

Personally, I like the NFAA method of using the age at the tournament, rather than the age during the calendar year. This evens out the odds for kids with birthdays at the beginning and end of the year (though I guess it confuses things for annual rankings and JUSAT). 

On a similar note, it's unfortunate that indoor and outdoor world championships are held in the same calendar year every two years, as this means that even-year kids are always at the bottom of their 2-year age group. And also that only 2 birth-years were eligible for the Youth Olympics (which will likely be held every 4 years) since half of the kids will never even be eligible! But I guess them's the breaks!


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## Jim C (Oct 15, 2002)

archerymom2 said:


> It seems to me that the groups should be made either by grade or by age throughout the program. I think the current ages make more sense than school grades, because kids can get held back or start late, giving them an advantage. But either way, it should be done consistently throughout -- without exceptions for high school seniors.
> 
> Personally, I like the NFAA method of using the age at the tournament, rather than the age during the calendar year. This evens out the odds for kids with birthdays at the beginning and end of the year (though I guess it confuses things for annual rankings and JUSAT).
> 
> On a similar note, it's unfortunate that indoor and outdoor world championships are held in the same calendar year every two years, as this means that even-year kids are always at the bottom of their 2-year age group. And also that only 2 birth-years were eligible for the Youth Olympics (which will likely be held every 4 years) since half of the kids will never even be eligible! But I guess them's the breaks!


I don't like the NFAA idea as much as the NAA. For example, the JOAD nationals in 05 was held the third weekend in June, ours, the fourth weekend in June, Oklahamo the second weekend in July, this PA shoot, first weekend in July.

Lots of kids could have been for the Orlando shoot but if they were born in early July they would have been forced into another category

By tracking eligibility due to the calendar year, you don't suffer if the 2010 joad shoot is held in late july vs early june. 

On the NFAA, the indoor shoot has moved around march a bit and when it moves a week earlier you probably lose a few kids who might have anticipated it would be shot in say mid march


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## lizard (Jul 4, 2003)

*hostin JOAD tourneys*



Serious Fun said:


> I think we should grow the number of experienced tournament hosts so that tournament can eventually take place in multiple places in every state. It makes sense to me that tourneys be held in as wide a variety of locations as possible to better expose the sport and ultimately grow the sport so that what the JOAD do is made to be important and well known. The problem is $$$. How many places besides Central CA, AZ, Texas, Georgia, New Jersey and Ohio host multiple major tourneys? Having only six places in the entire USA is sad. I hope places like OK City and PA, the host of the last two JOAD nationals host other major tourneys now that they have some experience with what is arguably the most difficult of all tourneys to host. I have high hopes for the New England area because they have some committed folks up there. Maybe 2013? Utah should is going to be very experience after hosting the YWC and World Cups. Grow, Grow, Grow… We need to grow because existing places eventually age out. For instance Denver, no tourneys took place there after the 2003 JOAD Nationals. As soon as a new place come on board, one drops off as the leadership retires. We can put all of our eggs in one basket.



If I might be SOOOO bold as to say something here, as I am the one who wrote out the check for all the American Whitetail terget mats that we purchased for the JOAD Nationals we have hosted...A MAJOR EXPENSE!
Figure about $300/bale, not including shipping, as we drove 8 hour round trip from CIncinnati. Also, our BELOVED Darrell Pace, technological guru and all around great guy, is a great DJ and has the sound system which I believe CJO paid for some of it and DP has added to for his gigs! (Also expensive stuff, if anything would go wrong I would feel obligated to DP to reimburse him for any damage to his equipment.) Our timing lights and synchronized buzzers were expensive too...SO, for those who want to host a JAOD Nationals, better start raising funds now! Our club is very lucky to have the funding to afford to be able to do these things. Thanks to JimC, Lizard, Steve COrnell and Darrell Pace, and all our parents who help us put these things on! We couldn't do it without ALL the pieces to the puzzle!


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## Jim C (Oct 15, 2002)

lizard said:


> If I might be SOOOO bold as to say something here, as I am the one who wrote out the check for all the American Whitetail terget mats that we purchased for the JOAD Nationals we have hosted...A MAJOR EXPENSE!
> Figure about $300/bale, not including shipping, as we drove 8 hour round trip from CIncinnati. Also, our BELOVED Darrell Pace, technological guru and all around great guy, is a great DJ and has the sound system which I believe CJO paid for some of it and DP has added to for his gigs! (Also expensive stuff, if anything would go wrong I would feel obligated to DP to reimburse him for any damage to his equipment.) Our timing lights and synchronized buzzers were expensive too...SO, for those who want to host a JAOD Nationals, better start raising funds now! Our club is very lucky to have the funding to afford to be able to do these things. Thanks to JimC, Lizard, Steve COrnell and Darrell Pace, and all our parents who help us put these things on! We couldn't do it without ALL the pieces to the puzzle!


Unlike the US Nationals-where the tournament uses the equipment owned by the NAA, JOAD nationals looks to the the host club to provide all that stuff. When I started running t he club, we were lucky to have some experienced people who knew how to run tournaments, and people like Rich Owens who knew how to manage large projects. The prior northern clubs were no longer interested in running JOAD Nationals and Mark Miller suggested we bid but before we could get the 02 nationals, he suggested we run a regional championship which we did in 2001. That proved to him and others we could do the job. We invested thousands of dollars into getting the necessary material to run what most observers noted was the best JOAD nationals held to that date. WE then ran the 04 olympic trials and the 06 national joad--each time getting even better equipment (Like the big digital clocks that DP has taken to the SI CUp etc), a new trailer etc.

If the NAA wants clubs to continue to upgrade the equipment etc , they have to support those clubs when they bid for a tournament that only comes around every four year unless the club fails to run the tournament properly.


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## lizard (Jul 4, 2003)

*Under the Big Top*



Jim C said:


> My family's pleasure. Ian was disappointed that Kiran is not coming to Hamilton and Ian mentioned several times on the way home he hopes Kiran comes to the next outdoor JOAD even though Kiran, I believe, moves up to cub. The boy was great, always had a smile on his face and proved he is one of the very best 12 and under archers in the entire country because this nationals had pretty much all the top dawgs. Ian won the North indoors, Austin beat Ian to win the Ohio indoor and JOAD outdoor so at least from our region, they were the two best and the three kids who finished ahead of Ian in the national indoor were all there too.
> 
> Great Kid-a credit to his club and his coaches and parents.


John, Both Kiran and Anajli were wonderful! Excited and happy to be at the tournament! They felt spoiled by the weather (it wasn't BLAZING HOT) they didn't have to pull out their spritzers or fans as it was fairly cool and not too humid! Ian has made a new friend as a result and so have Jim and I!

Hoping to see you in Hamilton!!

Liz


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## lizard (Jul 4, 2003)

*Age Limits*

I can see the points of everyone here, but you have to understand something, it is FITA who sets the age limitations, NOT the NAA!
The idea of making a senior division at JOAD Nationals is a bit silly, isn't it?
Heck for the sake of argument, why can't JOAD Nationals run concurrent to NAA Nationals? We already have to set up a kids field, so what's not saying we all could save a bunch of money by running both concurrently? We'd only have to take one week of vacation time, instead of two weeks broken up. It would be in the same location 3 years running. JOAD Clubs wouldn't have to lay out so much money in order to be able to hold a JOAD National tournament. I'm sure there would be more positive things than negative. I don't know if it has ever been discussed, but it might be a prudent move by the NAA!
I know there is probably a really good reason why JOAD Nationals is separate from NAA Nationals, but I just thought it begged being brought up for discussion!


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## Jim C (Oct 15, 2002)

lizard said:


> I can see the points of everyone here, but you have to understand something, it is FITA who sets the age limitations, NOT the NAA!
> The idea of making a senior division at JOAD Nationals is a bit silly, isn't it?
> Heck for the sake of argument, why can't JOAD Nationals run concurrent to NAA Nationals? We already have to set up a kids field, so what's not saying we all could save a bunch of money by running both concurrently? We'd only have to take one week of vacation time, instead of two weeks broken up. It would be in the same location 3 years running. JOAD Clubs wouldn't have to lay out so much money in order to be able to hold a JOAD National tournament. I'm sure there would be more positive things than negative. I don't know if it has ever been discussed, but it might be a prudent move by the NAA!
> I know there is probably a really good reason why JOAD Nationals is separate from NAA Nationals, but I just thought it begged being brought up for discussion!


at joad nationals the kids are the focus


at US nationals its the big name shooters like Vic and Dave and Jenny and Jamie etc


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## northpawmom (Apr 26, 2009)

It also gives the kidos two different NATIONAL tournaments to give it their all at. :smile:


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## Jim C (Oct 15, 2002)

northpawmom said:


> It also gives the kidos two different NATIONAL tournaments to give it their all at. :smile:


yes-and it makes JR USAT rankings more representative. If you only have indoor nationals, JOAD Nationals and maybe SI CUP you don't get quite the picture that 2 FITAS in four days provides


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## archerymom2 (Mar 28, 2008)

I agree with the above 2 responses ---

One thing our son's coach emphasized is that if you really want to progress, you need to shoot tournaments. Lots of them. Even ones you're not likely to medal in (or maybe "especially" those!). It's a great learning experience, you meet other archers (especially if there aren't others that live nearby), and you get used to shooting in pressure situations. Reducing the number of national tournaments would reduce those experiences. 

On the other hand, no one HAS to go to all the tournaments. Even for Jr USAT, you only NEED to go to JOAD outdoors and 2 others of your choice. So having both JOAD and Nationals provides much-needed experience for some, and options for others.


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