# Pulling into the wall?



## Wyotarget (Mar 17, 2013)

It came apparent to me at state outdoor by one of the shooters that I pull really hard into the wall. He says I don't know my strength and how hard I am truly pulling into the wall. 

Is there adamant ages or disadvantages in how hard you pull. Is there a limit on how hard you pull? 
Thoughts and opinions welcome


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## Wyotarget (Mar 17, 2013)

My set up is a 2013 pro comp xl, with spiral cams at 29".


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## ron w (Jan 5, 2013)

once on the stops, the won't perform any different if you are just there, or trying to bend the riser. all you are doing is creating more fatigue inducing tension into your shot execution and making a harder time of getting the release (especially if a hinge) to fire from the increased sear pressures.


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## SlickNickel (Jul 14, 2014)

To each their own, but I'm with ron w, but I will add that you may need to creep tune to achieve what ron is saying about pulling into the wall. When I pull too hard into the wall my float gets worse also. Don't get me wrong, I like pulling into the wall, but if I pull too hard it has a negative effect on my shot. If you hold well, don't fatigue, etc, and shoot your best that way, then I don't see anything wrong with what you are doing. Maybe the shooter who told you that likes to relax at full draw instead of pulling through the shot.


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## Praeger (Jan 7, 2011)

From the standpoint of making your shot, I would describe best practice is a balance of enough force to keep the bow from coming off the stops (creeping), and pulling past the holding weight to get the release to fire. If you have a death grip on your release and don't allow it to rotate, you have to pull so hard into the wall to get the release to fire that it disturbs your front end and pushes your pin off the X. A timid pull into might cause a slight bounce as you come off the stops then you pull back and bump the wall and the cycle repeats which prevents your pin from settling. 

I shoot a Spiral X cam and feel making strong shots - pulling into the wall past my 20 lbs holding weight - works well for me and is repeatable. As fatigue sets in I tend to grip my hinge release more tightly and if I don't pull strong my front end breaks down and I'll likely throw the shot to the right if I don't recognize it and let down. Some archers prefer to yield to the draw weight to cause the release to fire, and others have the strength to pull hard into the wall so that they don't need a subtle grip of the release to get it to fire. 

So, if you are the type that pulls hard into the stops but have a steady pin on the X, there is nothing wrong. I don't see it as advantage or disadvantage sort of situation. You might want to experiment with a lighter touch on your release and not pull the cams off the bow, but ultimately what is right is what works for you.


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## bigHUN (Feb 5, 2006)

the limb materials are very different, 
me personally like the most sensitive carbon limbs with faster recovery time. My #60 limbs are sensitive I can see they (top and bottom limbs) deflect when I rest the bow on the bottom cam...or rest the bow on the limb mount bow stand.....some other brands may have stiffer carbon limbs but the following will definitely apply to all....I sad the axles move relative to resting point but still keeping the ATA....
now, from this point on, when you draw the bow, the nocking point position is relative to a fixed point on the riser (lets pick a resting point in example). If you overdraw into the back wall hard can also make that nocking point "float" in relation to the point on the riser resulting your POI all over the scoring ring....
I like the bow DL set precise that when I draw the bow my optimum draw length is maybe 1-2 millimeter shorter then my maximum allowable DL so I don't pull hard on the cable draw stops....and I don't prefer limb stops at all because of side effects ....
The other thing, if you really like to hold heavy to tighten your aim you can just simple swap your 70 or 80 % cams to 60%....you will have a firm 25 ish lbs holding weight, with a simple trick = twisting cables you may even get to 50% and have it like the finger shooters...
#57.3 peek DW and 22.8-23.2 lbs holding weight what I like the best for long range shooting, holding on cables just a hair before the letoff valley.


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## rohpenguins (Dec 2, 2012)

as with everything consistency is the key. I used to damn near rip the cams off the bow. What I noticed was my bad shots missed low and my float opened up really fast. I attribute it to too much tension. What I did was add holding weight I was holding 18- now I hold 22 and found my draw was 1/4 inch short. These moves settled my float an helped my shots break on a more consistent basis. Ron W made some great points as well...


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

What works for you, works for you. Just because this one guy "thinks" you're drawing excessively is his opinion. Just how does it feel? How are your scores? Do you have sighting issues? Remember, you're the one that has to be happy with your set up, not the other guy.


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## dua lam pa (May 29, 2014)

Wyotarget said:


> It came apparent to me at state outdoor by one of the shooters that I pull really hard into the wall. He says I don't know my strength and how hard I am truly pulling into the wall.
> 
> Is there adamant ages or disadvantages in how hard you pull. Is there a limit on how hard you pull?
> Thoughts and opinions welcome


its easy to pull as hard as you can - 100% for 200 shots 
good luck pulling at a relaxed state of 25% for 200 shots 
The sooner you learn to make aggressive shots the sonner your scores will go up ,thats just my opinion however


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## dua lam pa (May 29, 2014)

in short - 
its easy to pull as hard as you can , every time


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## stoz (Aug 23, 2002)

Funny I was just thinking about this subject before I clicked on this sub forum. Keep the thoughts coming.


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## Wyotarget (Mar 17, 2013)

This is my first year shooting outdoor target in open class. I felt I shot okay on day one with a 861 29x on a 900 fita rnd. I had a few shots that broke early but this was also my tournament I shot a hinge in I've always shot a target 4 though all of my indoor shooting. 

Most of my missed shots seemed to be either to the right or just low, witch seems odd to my because most my shots I miss indoors are right around 1030-1100 high left.


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## CarlV (Mar 12, 2008)

Shooting high let-off bows I've been told from one of the best pros that I should try to "pull the wheels off" for maximum stability, steadiness, and best shots.

I shoot an Elite Tour, which I have tuned for just under 80% let-off. Dave Barnsdale gave me this tip and we all know how he is currently shooting (Vegas and consistently in the 550s for F&H).

It works for Dave, and it certainly is working for me to pull hard into the stops.


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## Wyotarget (Mar 17, 2013)

I'm shooting 60% let off,


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## ron w (Jan 5, 2013)

if pulling into the wall, makes your float worse, you probably have a draw length problem. at that point, small, one or two twists of the string will super tune the drawlength to what is your most stable condition. this is especially important if you are using back tension as your source of rotation for a hinge or thumb trigger. the ideal condition, has you on the stops solidly, but not trying to bend the riser and the rotation from back tension doesn't increase this pressure, it just maintains it evenly, until the release simply, "disconnects" from the string. 
too many people think, "pull, pull, pull", means "try to rip that bow in half"...all it means, is to maintain your pressure against the stops, don't by any means, let it decrease, but it doesn't have to constantly increase, until the shot breaks. that constantly increasing tension, is what disturbs your float in the process.


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## ron w (Jan 5, 2013)

if you're shooting a hinge, that, "pull the wheels of the bow" will reduce the inherent rotation that back tension produces. that rotation is necessary to make the release break the sear. with a thumb trigger, you can essentially, "try to pull the wheels off", because the sear design is not as sensitive to this pressure. these are small differences that people who are reading about using a hinge or using a properly set up thumb trigger , seem to be missing, as they learn about using back tension.
as I' ve before, the more you know and understand about the process, before you begin trying to use it, the better and easier it will be to learn it. although a thumb trigger and a hinge can be used in essentially the same way, there re small details that make them work slightly different in their similar execution.


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## bigHUN (Feb 5, 2006)

whit any bow/cam you have two options to hold that 21 lbs or 25 lbs if you prefer.....
beyond the "hump" you pull into the backwall on the limbs and this could create you problems do to ATA is locked with cables/string and just floating depend you apply high or low pressure on grip....
if you hold the weight before the letoff that is the most "clean" hold, holding between the release and your grip and locking the view to the third point in peep
also, that 1" is approximate but very close dimension (just a sample from my setup measured on draw board) where the cams actually do nothing to the arrow speed or KE


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## dua lam pa (May 29, 2014)

ron w said:


> if pulling into the wall, makes your float worse, you probably have a draw length problem. at that point, small, one or two twists of the string will super tune the drawlength to what is your most stable condition. this is especially important if you are using back tension as your source of rotation for a hinge or thumb trigger. the ideal condition, has you on the stops solidly, but not trying to bend the riser and the rotation from back tension doesn't increase this pressure, it just maintains it evenly, until the release simply, "disconnects" from the string.
> too many people think, "pull, pull, pull", means "try to rip that bow in half"...all it means, is to maintain your pressure against the stops, don't by any means, let it decrease, but it doesn't have to constantly increase, until the shot breaks. that constantly increasing tension, is what disturbs your float in the process.


Catch 22
some - Chance B - just wait it out - maintaining constant pressure - Passive shot 
Otheres - Braden G - get on it , and constantly increase pressure - Aggressive shot
some others shoot in between the above 

Some take turn 4 high , some take turn 4 low - either can win the race


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## ElMuchoHombre (Aug 17, 2013)

dua lam pa said:


> Catch 22
> some - Chance B - just wait it out - maintaining constant pressure - Passive shot
> Otheres - Braden G - get on it , and constantly increase pressure - Aggressive shot
> some others shoot in between the above
> ...


This is a fantastic point. Well put.


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## ron w (Jan 5, 2013)

yup, you're right. the advantage of good solid stops is that you can vary the pressure to some extent with no adverse affects to the shot. the key is in cam timing. the closer they're timed, the less affect there will be from varying pressure. that's what "creep tuning" is all about. it essentially time the cam to your shooting style .


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## Fury90flier (Jun 27, 2012)

pull how you want, just do it exactly the same every time.

Pulling hard...very easy to be off and when you are, you're off in poundage...Say your holding weight is 18# but you pull harder making it 28#. Well are you always pulling with 10# more or is it 8/12...when you pull harder, the off differences will be greater which will make a difference in POI

pulling light...if you're off a little, the differences is minimal and will make less a difference in POI

do what you want.


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## rob_E (Nov 14, 2013)

I shoot a Reezen and there is no creep at all between the back wall and ripping your shoulder off. It took a lot of getting used to from my last bow with the fx cam and a half. I find with the Reezen I have to make a more conscious effort to pull harder into the back wall but I don't think I pull much harder.


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## bigHUN (Feb 5, 2006)

pulling hard into the wall is not just a poundage but over doing the bow DL as well......
take one arrow for testing, pull it normal and somebody to make a line at the rest possition,
then pull it hard and the same person to make an other line, you will see later how much of a difference we talking about....
now put the bow in the draw board and draw it to the first line, then draw it to second line.....you will see what it does to cams/cables/limbs.....
1/8" difference can be a lot if you want to fill the 10 ring @ 50, you may see less spread at 20 but you could not read the pattern right ....
I would stay away from pulling in to limbs,
also,
the best to do learn the DL - pull length consistency, it is at least important then the grip consistency or the the anchor consistency, or many other minor things....
with limb stops you will NEVER learn this, with cable DL stops you have a chance if you train the muscles for that very sensitive feel.
the "form" consistency is not a single "item" but a combination of many things and all will effect the POI in one or the other way.....


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## dua lam pa (May 29, 2014)

Fury90flier said:


> pull how you want, just do it exactly the same every time.
> 
> Pulling hard...very easy to be off and when you are, you're off in poundage...Say your holding weight is 18# but you pull harder making it 28#. Well are you always pulling with 10# more or is it 8/12...when you pull harder, the off differences will be greater which will make a difference in POI
> 
> ...


so 98% let off should work well due to the even lower holding weights ?


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## Fury90flier (Jun 27, 2012)

98% let off will likely cause poor grouping


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## gofast (Apr 15, 2011)

great thread.


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

dua lam pa said:


> so 98% let off should work well due to the even lower holding weights ?





Fury90flier said:


> 98% let off will likely cause poor grouping


Rambling..............

98% is a little far fetched, but I've heard of 90% or something thereof.... Still, accuracy is in the hands of the holder (shooter). Learn to shoot it thing.

I believe draw length is a major factory regardless of let off. If you're on the wall, your on the wall and virtually all manufacturers say accuracy comes from the wall, but draw length has to fit to maintain holding into the wall. Too long and you creep off the wall, which you should have a "check system" going to hold to the wall. You come off the wall you have two options, let down and start over or if draw weigh allows (you have the strength), re-set. This is let the bow out from you, re-group and bring the bow back to you and perhaps I shouldn't have added this re-set, but I have done it and still do it. Did it today, sort of shook, didn't like it, let the bow out, perhaps a couple of seconds to re-group, brought the bow back and flat drilled the center of the X ring from 25 yards....could have been luck...could have.

Bow fit so imperative, drawing into the wall has something to do with eliminating torque so long as the bow hand remains "loose." 

If a down side to pulling too hard in the wall, as someone as has already noted, accuracy can be effected. Creep tuning can help with cable stop bows. Mmmm. Peep is so high from the arrow with bow at rest. Peep is so high from the arrow at full draw, just on the wall. Peep is so high from the arrow pulling into the wall. Yes, you can pull as hard as you can 100% of the time, but pulling hard as you can changes as your wear down. Strength weakens, how much you pull into the wall changes even though you're pulling as hard as you can. On the line, Indoor or Outdoor would show strength retention. 3D, X number of minutes between single shots is something else. 

Positive stop bows. I've shot them the summer of 2010. Martin's single positive stop, but something of some give and then rock hard. Pearson's dual positive stops gives a rock hard wall effect right off the bat. Here, you're on the wall or you're not on the wall. I don't see how creep tuning can help with positive stop bows.
The Martin Cat cam, Nitro cams or whatever you want to call them have a definite drop into the valley and hit the wall and this at 80% let off. Many first Martin shooters bounce the arrow off the arrow rest hitting the wall because of that sudden drop into the valley. Hard wall and 80% let off just isn't 80% let off. The harder you pull the more holding weight you hold at a quicker rate (if I said this properly). The Cat cams seem "slow" out of the hole. I adjusted the single stop to help give the draw length I wanted and at the same time the cams reacted a bit faster.

The Pearson R2 B2 and Legend cams can have that same 80% let off, but "faster than a speeding bullet" out of the hole. My MarXman is set to 80% let off; 55 pounds, 11 pounds holding weight and feels like 20 pounds or so. See diagram bigHun posted. If I were to decrease let off, say 60%, I'd probably have the same feel of holding 20 pounds or so. Draw length would be effected (shortened) and probably offset any speed gain - draw length for draw length 60% let off is faster than 80% let off.


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## bigHUN (Feb 5, 2006)

SonnyThomas said:


> ...If I were to decrease let off, say 60%, I'd probably have the same feel of holding 20 pounds or so. Draw length would be effected (shortened) and probably offset any speed gain...


agree partially....you don't have to loose on the DL....
can't say on your bow but this is how I am doing:
with lengthening cables I got shorter bow-DL so the cam timing moved (I call it advancing the cams) ;
and then lengthen the string (I got back to my original bow-DL) and the result is now a totally different powerstroke, 
way smoother DFC, feels pulling less, still have the holding weight I like but not on the backwall, but holding before the "hump", and have not noticed any change on speed....









for both the FITA and Field practicing I like the DW about 55-57 with holding on 22-23 lbs, my own DL is (after shooting so many arrows) already in muscle memory, so I just need to feel the "wall" and Im OK....creeptuning @ 50 is my common todo thing and I made it in the way that below 1/4" creeping no visible effects on POI.


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## ron w (Jan 5, 2013)

if your cams are timed well, and the bows has good solid stops, there is no difference in the energy the bow puts out, when it is operating. you can pull into the stops as hard or as soft as you want and the only difference is the tension developed in your anatomy at full draw. once the string leaves the stops, the limbs put out so much energy and that is it, there ain't no more.
some people prefer to execute with allot of prebuilt tension in their release execution and hold for various reasons, some don't. that tension is developed by how hard you pull into the stops and /or the peak draw weight and let-off percentage of your cams.


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## stoz (Aug 23, 2002)

So I did a test today 15 arrows at 10 yards pulling normally into wall and pulling hard into wall with my pro edge. I've thought this could possibly my cause of rights and mostly lefts this year. At 10 yards I had a literally one arrow hole pulling hard and about an arrow and a half to two arrows hole pulling normally into the wall. I also would note that pulling normally produced a better paper tear that pulling hard.


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

SonnyThomas said:


> Rambling..............
> 
> If I were to decrease let off, say 60%, I'd probably have the same feel of holding 20 pounds or so. Draw length would be effected (shortened) and probably offset any speed gain - draw length for draw length 60% let off is faster than 80% let off.





bigHUN said:


> agree partially....you don't have to loose on the DL....


I meant if just lessening the let off. Doesn't take much movement to decrease let off. Most wouldn't notice the effect on draw length.

Of adjustable stops timing check point is effected. The bow is in time, but doesn't show it. Martin's Cat cams have the cables lay in the groove of the modules. Draw stop set to this give 80%. Advance the draw stop and the cams stop short of the cables laying the grooves of the modules. Pearson's Legend cams have "finger" or "tabs" right out in the open. These touch the cables and draw stops set them... These "finger" or "tabs" are so in the open that you could time the bow with a feeler gage, that open to see. Advance the stops and the "finger" or "tabs" stop short of touching the cables. Of course, if this effects draw length too much then cable adjustments need addressed.
That the timing "finger" or "tabs" are so in the open the draw stops can also be set back to the timing with a feeler gage. I proved both the checking of timing and setting of draw stops using a cellophane off a pack of cigarettes. And further proved the setting of the draw stops takes in the compression of the O-rings on the draw stops. A draw board is almost a necessity to show just how close you can set timing and draw stops of the Legend cams.


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## field14 (May 21, 2002)

stoz said:


> So I did a test today 15 arrows at 10 yards pulling normally into wall and pulling hard into wall with my pro edge. I've thought this could possibly my cause of rights and mostly lefts this year. At 10 yards I had a literally one arrow hole pulling hard and about an arrow and a half to two arrows hole pulling normally into the wall. I also would note that pulling normally produced a better paper tear that pulling hard.


This is more of an indication of your "timing" being nearly perfect than a 'test' for left or right spreading!

Now, for most hybrid cam bows with "hard" stops, pulling 1/20th of an inch harder into the stops will INCREASE the poundage (holding weight) by 1#, so if your to anchor draw length is inconsistent, that is one time you pull hard into the stops and then next time you pull 1/10" MORE into them, your second shot will have TWO POUNDS more "thrust" from anchor to the arrow coming off the string. This will destroy grouping at distance, and likely will keep you out of the "Baby X" on the Vegas face at 20 yards. If the cams aren't synched correctly, you WILL get wild flyers by pulling a different amount into the stops be they cable or limb type of "stops".
Consistency of "to anchor draw length" (as in getting PERFECT draw length) is one important item that separates the REAL Pros from the wannabees and the "joes"!
I have run tests on people that think they are using the stops correctly. It is most interesting in that SOME shooters I tested over the course of 10 times of drawing the bow varied their "to anchor draw length" by as much as 3/8" from shortest (when they tire) to longest (the first few times they draw the bow to anchor), and all the while they thought their HARD STOPS were "hard stops" and prevented them from overdrawing or under drawing their bows....NOT!
The better shooters I tested, as per my hypothesis were the most consistent in "to anchor drawlength", most varying in said to anchor drawlength over the course of the 10 cycle test by LESS than 1/16" total for all 10 drawing cycles! THAT kind of consistency proves itself in competition!

Most shooters tested were all over the board from shot to shot, sometimes coming in way hard (longer) and then soft, softer, harder again, softer, and by the 10th draw cycle were really short, right at the stops. This is an indication that likely they are set a tad long on their drawlength setup because they cannot maintain any sort of REAL consistency; depending upon the hard stops (that are NOT "hard stops") to solve their woes for them.
It was/is a fun experiment to do with students or shooters that seem to be convinced that hard stops prevent overdrawing or underdrawing the bow....1/8" of inconsistency is TOO MUCH, since plus or minus 1/8" gives a range of 1/4", and that is really serious; especially when shooting outdoors on a hilly field course!

Photos and results of many of these tests can be found in "ProActive Archery". Just google it and you'll find it quickly! That chapter alone is well worth the "read."

field14 (Tom D.)


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## stoz (Aug 23, 2002)

So I might be missing something but it seems to me that if I pull hard into the wall my draw length has to vary less than if I come into the stops and slowly increase into the stop as my shot goes. This is what I believe is happening to me is as the tournament goes on I relax and pull less into the wall and get lefts.usually not alot but enough that I'm missing 11's I would have had.


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## ron w (Jan 5, 2013)

if you are right handed, relaxing would produce right misses, in most typical cases. it is called "collapsing" and is actually from a lack of consistent follow through, that causes the drift. timing issues, will mostly show up as high and low inconsistencies . 
I suspect you need to work on finding the right....exactly right....draw length. by "exactly right", it can mean as little as, a twist or two of the bow string.

todays bows, as good as they are, are also much more sensitive to everything being exactly right, by virtue of the fact that they are designed and manufactured much more accurately than bows of years ago. when they are 'exactly right", they display a very big range of forgiveness, but when any one element is off just a bit, that range decreases to almost nothing, right away.
I think allot of the questions people have, are the result of not realizing how perfectly these bows have to be set up, in order to display the potential forgiveness, they can contribute to the shot.


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## stoz (Aug 23, 2002)

Funny you say that about being perfect I stopped shooting from 2004 until 3 years ago and it seems I have to pay attention to alot more things than I used to. Of course I'm alot older so I figured it was that.the bows are alot more enjoyable to shoot for sure.


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

stoz said:


> So I might be missing something but it seems to me that if I pull hard into the wall my draw length has to vary less than if I come into the stops and slowly increase into the stop as my shot goes. This is what I believe is happening to me is as the tournament goes on I relax and pull less into the wall and get lefts.usually not alot but enough that I'm missing 11's I would have had.


Weight lifting, Jerk and Snatch, doesn't go well for bows. And that's what it amounts to on a smaller scale of course. Into the wall and pulling into the wall gives to the shot. If "loose" on the wall there is a quite a bit of difference of drawing length before the shot happens. This difference of draw length creates problems. Note how many times proper draw length has been noted in this thread. The closer you are to proper draw length the more consistent you are - rights or lefts noticeably less and rights and lefts noticeably less wide wise.


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

stoz said:


> Funny you say that about being perfect I stopped shooting from 2004 until 3 years ago and it seems I have to pay attention to alot more things than I used to. Of course I'm alot older so I figured it was that.the bows are alot more enjoyable to shoot for sure.


Knowing more does make for "enjoyable" bows.


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## bigHUN (Feb 5, 2006)

just look at the Olympic shooters....the better once....they hold on 35-36 lbs or whatever......and what is their DL indicator?
the clicker, 
and without a peep and fancy sights/scopes then can easily outperform 90% of folks here @ AT talking about target shooting.....
I have some competition folks in my club switching between compound and olympic bow there and back just to train drawing the DL correct...also the olympic bow can teach you many other important things as well.
Don't think if you can shoot into a single hole at 10 yards can make you consistent...never...better go and fill the same arrows at 50 into a ten ring and you will see all your flaws.
I don't prefer the 5 or 10 yard shots at all, me personally have not found the right benefits other then you can do it in your own basement/garage....


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## stoz (Aug 23, 2002)

10 yards just an easy test
.takes out variables. I didn't mean it was a fair test just found it interesting. I always shot groups at my max yardage on good days to decide my set up.


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## ron w (Jan 5, 2013)

what you guys are not getting, is the 10 yard drills are not for shooting arrows into the same holes, they are for working on perfecting your "execution", which you cannot do when your mind is working on sighting the bow. you have to have a good execution to hit the ten ring at 50 yards and that execution has to be confidently applied to the shot. it is the application of that execution, that allows hitting the 10 ring. the execution is learned and reinforced where it is easy to stay in the 10 ring.... where the " application of the execution to the shot, doesn't take allot of effort to apply confidently. you can't work on the application and the development of the execution at the same time, they have to be learned and developed separately,.... one has to be developed before it can be applied and the development has to be done where "IT" (the execution) can be concentrated on without concern for the application. and that place, is not where the shot process has to deal with concentrating on the application of the execution....at longer distances, where the bull is small and hard to stay in, or closely around, because all the shot processes capacity to concentrate, is being used, staying on the bull.
when it (the execution) is not developed and applied correctly and confidently, is when that shot process jumps in and out of gear and that happens when the shot process has to cognitively work on both execution and application, at the same time....as when you are shooting at longer distance and the execution is not well developed.
as I've said, before, each element supports another and when one is weak, is when the system....the shot process.... , as whole...stumbles.


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## stoz (Aug 23, 2002)

Ron w
definitely agree, I can tell you for sure the two things I do is blank bale and shot 10 yards every day. And if I have time I shoot longer yardage. But I rarely shoot longer with out shooting close first. I think you , by doing the close work program yourself to make good shots.


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## stoz (Aug 23, 2002)

I think too many people try the short stuff and then go out and see if they are fixed. This is my second year of doing it almost every day. It definitely helps me.


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## dua lam pa (May 29, 2014)

field14 said:


> This is more of an indication of your "timing" being nearly perfect than a 'test' for left or right spreading!
> 
> Now, for most hybrid cam bows with "hard" stops, pulling 1/20th of an inch harder into the stops will INCREASE the poundage (holding weight) by 1#, so if your to anchor draw length is inconsistent, that is one time you pull hard into the stops and then next time you pull 1/10" MORE into them, your second shot will have TWO POUNDS more "thrust" from anchor to the arrow coming off the string. This will destroy grouping at distance, and likely will keep you out of the "Baby X" on the Vegas face at 20 yards. If the cams aren't synched correctly, you WILL get wild flyers by pulling a different amount into the stops be they cable or limb type of "stops".
> Consistency of "to anchor draw length" (as in getting PERFECT draw length) is one important item that separates the REAL Pros from the wannabees and the "joes"!
> ...


 No arguments from myself or most likely anyone here with your findings. - I am asuming you were testing with flages on the ables ?
I personally know I shoot better thru my stops - Yes my intention is to have the exact same DL , every shot , just as if I were shooting on the stops. 
I am finding that strong aggressive shots are more efficient and repeatable in the long run - 


"So I might be missing something but it seems to me that if I pull hard into the wall my draw length has to vary less than if I come into the stops and slowly increase into the stop as my shot goes. This is what I believe is happening to me is as the tournament goes on I relax and pull less into the wall and get lefts.usually not alot but enough that I'm missing 11's I would have had. " 
Hard to practice and shoot relaxed shots , then show up to a tourney and nerves blow you shot - I shoot awesome relaxed , and a bit of pressure and my shot changes , This pressure - nerves exist period I can not change that , so my shot was changed to work with the nerves. 
Strong Aggressive Shots , evey shot , every arrow - 


"So I did a test today 15 arrows at 10 yards pulling normally into wall and pulling hard into wall with my pro edge. I've thought this could possibly my cause of rights and mostly lefts this year. At 10 yards I had a literally one arrow hole pulling hard and about an arrow and a half to two arrows hole pulling normally into the wall. I also would note that pulling normally produced a better paper tear that pulling hard."

Adjust your DL accordingly ( shorten it ) shoot thru paper and report back - 
Shooting 10 arrows in the same hole at 10 yards is darn great shooting ! Not many people can do that for sure !


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

dua lam pa said:


> No arguments from myself or most likely anyone here with your findings. - I am asuming you were testing with flages on the ables ?
> I personally know I shoot better thru my stops - Yes my intention is to have the exact same DL , every shot , just as if I were shooting on the stops.
> I am finding that strong aggressive shots are more efficient and repeatable in the long run -
> 
> ...


I almost replied this morning of near the same thing.... Part of my "glitch" I reported of was not staying aggressive. Sent home to "practice" I found that if I stayed aggressive the straighter my shots were. I'm guessing this what my "practice" was to tell me. It took some time to get back in the groove. Started well and then drift off to goony land. X rings seemed easy, but then to slip one out was aggravating. Ticked off I'd go right back for the missed X, telling myself the arrow was going in regardless. Seeing the next shot nail the X ring and the wide shot still there was rewarding...
I had a rotten time yesterday and the ASA State Championship. I could not get my brain to function for judging yardage, but my arrows were dead center side to side to where I wanted my arrow, just high or low. Sickening was to see my arrow drop low, but I gave myself a pat on the back that at least my arrows were going straight instead of wide.


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## dua lam pa (May 29, 2014)

SonnyThomas said:


> I almost replied this morning of near the same thing.... Part of my "glitch" I reported of was not staying aggressive. Sent home to "practice" I found that if I stayed aggressive the straighter my shots were. I'm guessing this what my "practice" was to tell me. It took some time to get back in the groove. Started well and then drift off to goony land. X rings seemed easy, but then to slip one out was aggravating. Ticked off I'd go right back for the missed X, telling myself the arrow was going in regardless. Seeing the next shot nail the X ring and the wide shot still there was rewarding...
> I had a rotten time yesterday and the ASA State Championship. I could not get my brain to function for judging yardage, but my arrows were dead center side to side to where I wanted my arrow, just high or low. Sickening was to see my arrow drop low, but I gave myself a pat on the back that at least my arrows were going straight instead of wide.


Sonny , you should learn more from yesterdaythan if you shot well - 
Good job staying positive !


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## grantmac (May 31, 2007)

SonnyThomas said:


> I had a rotten time yesterday and the ASA State Championship. I could not get my brain to function for judging yardage, but my arrows were dead center side to side to where I wanted my arrow, just high or low. Sickening was to see my arrow drop low, but I gave myself a pat on the back that at least my arrows were going straight instead of wide.


Little tangent here:
If you aren't feeling confident in your judging there are ways to stack the deck in your favor. 
If I'm having confidence issues with the distance I will add 3-5% to my judged yardage and hold just above the bottom of the 10. It may not be how the best shoot, but for someone at the non-pro level it can really make the difference on those days when you just can't seem to nail the yardage.

-Grant


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## field14 (May 21, 2002)

stoz said:


> So I might be missing something but it seems to me that if I pull hard into the wall my draw length has to vary less than if I come into the stops and slowly increase into the stop as my shot goes. This is what I believe is happening to me is as the tournament goes on I relax and pull less into the wall and get lefts.usually not alot but enough that I'm missing 11's I would have had.


You hear "keep pulling" so much that it has become a badly mis-interpreted item concerning the shot sequence. So many people think that the arrow must be moving back or you must have a "ton" of movement to "keep pulling" after you hit FDP (full draw position). This is NOT the case. The key is to MAINTAIN the transfer of the pull to get the transfer from the arms to the levator scapulae and the rhomboids (the "pulling" muscle). If you maintain the "transfer of tension", it is only a micro amount of movement (contraction of the big muscles...NOT the fingers on the release hand...NOT moving the elbow straight back...NOT increasing DRAW LENGTH...but no...it is MAINTAINING the FDP once the transfer is completed and making the slight MUSCLE contraction to set off the shot.
So many believe that the arrow has to be moving back the entire time..nope.
What happens with most shooters, especially with higher letoff, is that the transfer is either never completed, or it is completed and then, since there is nothing there to give resistance to the CORRECT muscles, the shooters end up holding the entire wad with their forearms, hands, and fingers. What then happens is that there is ZERO back tension, and a collapsing shot. Sometimes they pull hard, sometimes soft, sometimes really hard, and most times they start out at one of the above and "leak it out". They think they are pulling their guts out, when in reality they are NOT "pulling", but rather they start PUSHING with the other side, thus the left arrows...or anywhere in between.
That is why many of the top echelon shooters don't tune to peak weight...they tune to HOLDING WEIGHT and get the holding weight up to 18-24 pounds HOLDING weight. Of course, they also don't shoot 70 or 80 pounds to get that sort of holding weigh either....there are other "tricks" to use with regard to clocking or unclocking the cams, cable or serving thickness on the power cable, and or setting the draw stops for minimal letoff and maximum holding weight.
Of course, they've also mastered having their draw length PERFECT...within 1/32" of their ideal FDP drawlength and have developed the muscle memory to replicate this within 1/32" every single time.

Stoz is reading it almost correctly when he says "This is what I believe is happening to me is as the tournament goes on I relax and pull less into the wall and get lefts.usually not alot but enough that I'm missing 11's I would have had" Basically you have lost the "Transfer" are are using the arms, which cannot properly hold any of the load consistently, so you start pushing with the bowarm instead trying to "muscle off" the shot with arm power.
IF you lose the transfer and start "leaking", the site will drop out the bottom quickly, you'll "pull" more, bring the site up, the peep alignment goes haywire, and at that point the arrow can go way low, high left, or way left. Normally a "leaked" arrow won't go to the right.


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## stoz (Aug 23, 2002)

Sonny
If I had a complete shoot missing only high and low I would call it a win. Take the small victory. If I had perfect line this year I would be in top three in ahc. Now I'm top 5.


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

grantmac said:


> Little tangent here:
> If you aren't feeling confident in your judging there are ways to stack the deck in your favor.
> If I'm having confidence issues with the distance I will add 3-5% to my judged yardage and hold just above the bottom of the 10. It may not be how the best shoot, but for someone at the non-pro level it can really make the difference on those days when you just can't seem to nail the yardage.
> 
> -Grant


It was just a "Bad Day at Black Rock" thing. Great course, but so many shots so long and in a tunnel like setting just wouldn't let my brain function. I do mean tunnel like. Some of the lanes were close, 10 to 15 yards, "walled" in with trees and brush. We had to wait to make sure the groups on either side of us were done shooting before went to score. Remember those tiny McKenzie speckled Javalinas? I center punched one from 38 yards....


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## dua lam pa (May 29, 2014)

The big JD - "dudley " has a lot to offer on this subject -


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## Joe Ryan (Jun 8, 2014)

I'm reminded of my old hoyt energy wheels (big valley) with about 60% let-off. I would often find myself guilty of a Dead Man's grip on my 2 finger hinge. Always managed to shoot a couple out the bottom. Coach said to over-power it.. Not.. Somewhere in between lay the best result


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