# Torque (does it affect longer arrows more)



## Donjr721 (Mar 25, 2013)

Will slight torquing of the bow affect a full length arrow more than a shorter arrow. Is the shorter arrow more forgiving of torque. Or is the longer arrow more forgiving. Say in theory both shafts / point weight, dynamic spine are exact even though lengths are different.


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## bigHUN (Feb 5, 2006)

How short or how long arrows? 
For compound shooters.............We make sure first we talk about perfectly spine matched arrows to your bow DW. 
The way-longer arrow flight will be more affected by you'r torquing the grip, the most forgiving "length" will have the point resting closer to your grip swivel point.
Interestingly the Olympic shooters will prefer longer - over shorter - arrows.....
I've tried this before with two brand new dozens, cut the 410 spine longer and the 450 spine shorter, both spine matched to #57 and shoot a full FITA score with each, and I got the longer shafts scoring better. The difference in carbon length between the two dozens is 2.75", same 120g points, same 1.8 degree helical fletching AAE 2" Plastifletch Max vanes.
The 450's group tighter with less effort (about the size of the X @70) but the fliers drop to 8's, the 410's group looser (all over the 10 ring not really X's) but the occasional fliers drop to 9 only.
So the longer shafts groups actually tighter with the fliers in total. 
I think I like the longer shafts better...
But again, high end target bow with high end stabilizers and I have both side rods to help with human errors, and I am a regular FITA shooter. Your results may wary.


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## Donjr721 (Mar 25, 2013)

bigHUN said:


> How short or how long arrows?
> For compound shooters.............We make sure first we talk about perfectly spine matched arrows to your bow DW.
> The way longer arrow flight will be more affected by you'r torquing the grip, the most forgiving "length" will have the point resting closer to your grip swivel point.
> Interestingly the Olympic shooters will prefer longer - over shorter - arrows.....
> ...


Say if arrows are dynamically the same in weight and spine one is say 32" the other 28". With out regards to weight or spine, I'm wondering if torque would affect the longer arrow more


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

Donjr721 said:


> Say if arrows are dynamically the same in weight and spine one is say 32" the other 28". With out regards to weight or spine, I'm wondering if torque would affect the longer arrow more


Dynamically the same for "Spine"...I can understand.

"Dynamically the same" for WEIGHT...I do not understand.

So, the 32-inch long arrow DOES weigh the same at the 28-inch long arrow?
Yes?
No?

Two arrows,
where ONE arrow is 4 INCHES LONGER

I have a hard time
seeing the SAME physical weight.

What does SAME dynamic WEIGHT, mean to you?


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## Donjr721 (Mar 25, 2013)

Right now I'm shooting x cutter pros cut at 29" 90 grain tips. They shoot well. 
I have 31" easton eclipse 2512's tipped with 100 grain. They fly well. I'm wondering if I happen to torque slightly, which arrow would suffer the most (disregarding spine, weight) concerning length only


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

Donjr721 said:


> Say if arrows are dynamically the same in weight and spine one is say 32" the other 28". With out regards to weight or spine, I'm wondering if torque would affect the longer arrow more


So,
let's FORGET about "SAME dynamic weight".

Two arrows with the SAME dynamic "SPINE".
ONE arrow is SUPER STIFF, and also 4-INCHES LONGER.

OTHER arrow is WEAKER spine rating, BUT, is 4-inches SHORTER.

SHORTER arrow, has 1/2-inch of OVER HANG, past the arrow rest.
LONGER arrow, has 3.5-inches of OVER HANG past the arrow rest, the contact patch where the arm touches the arrow tube.

THINK of a sledge hammer,
say a 5 lb sledge hammer,
with a 12-inch handle.

HOLD the end of the wood handle.

Now, same 5 pound sledge hammer,
but,
you swap in a handle that is 16-inches long,
and you HANG onto the END of the wood 16-inch HANDLE.

When you SWING the 5 lb sledge, with the 12-inch handle
HOW HARD does the 12-inch handle sledge HIT?

When you SWING the 5 lb sledge, with the 16-inch handle
HOW HARD does the 16-inch handle sledge HIT?

SAME for TORQUE.

If you have an arrow with HALF an inch of overHANG
versus
if you have an arrow with 3.5-inches of OVERhang...

WHICH do YOU think will give you WIDER groups?

ULTIMATELY

theory only goes SO far.

GO shoot BOTH of your arrow
at 80 yards....

or at 90 meters (100 yards)

and see which set of arrows gives YOU better results.


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## Donjr721 (Mar 25, 2013)

nuts&bolts said:


> Dynamically the same for "Spine"...I can understand.
> 
> "Dynamically the same" for WEIGHT...I do not understand.
> 
> ...


Just theoretically. My concern is if torque affects a longer or shorter arrow, which would it affect more. Just a length only question. Not a spine or weight question.

I shoot both equally well. I'm just curious if torque affects a longer arrow more


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

Donjr721 said:


> Right now I'm shooting x cutter pros cut at 29" 90 grain tips. They shoot well.
> I have 31" easton eclipse 2512's tipped with 100 grain. They fly well. I'm wondering if I happen to torque slightly, which arrow would suffer the most (disregarding spine, weight) concerning length only


Aaaah.

STRENGTH of materials.

You CANNOT compare an ALUMINUM arrow
with a natural frequency that is LOWER...
meaning when you HIT an aluminum tube...it gives a LOW frequency SOUND...cause it VIBRATES SLOWER.

When you PING a CARBON fiber TUBE,
the natural frequency is MUCH MUCH higher,
means when you HIT a CARBON FIBER tube...it gives a HIGH pitch frequency SOUND...cause it VIBRATES MUCH FASTER.


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## Donjr721 (Mar 25, 2013)

nuts&bolts said:


> Aaaah.
> 
> STRENGTH of materials.
> 
> ...


No concerns with material. I'm just curious if torque affects the longer arrow. Whether it's carbon, aluminum, or whatever. Which will suffer most. A shorter arrow or a longer one.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

Donjr721 said:


> Right now I'm shooting x cutter pros cut at 29" 90 grain tips. They shoot well.
> I have 31" easton eclipse 2512's tipped with 100 grain. They fly well. I'm wondering if I happen to torque slightly, which arrow would suffer the most (disregarding spine, weight) concerning length only


The X-Cutter Pros will shoot JUST GREAT
with the minimum over hang...

say 1-inch PAST the arrow rest contact point
or
say 3/4-inch PAST the arrow rest contact point.

I shoot X-CUTTERS with 90 grain target points,
and all the way out to 80 yards (NFAA max distance)
they group just GREAT,
SUPER TIGHT...


IF
and ONLY IF
you have your draw length dialed in to the 1/4-inch.

That's right,
when your draw length is WRONG by 1/4-inch,
it makes a HUGE difference

cuz the X-Cutter PROs are VERY VERY VERY unforgiving of TOO LONG or TOO SHORT a draw length,
down to the 1/4-inch of adjustment for draw length.

THis also assumes CONSISTENT FORM.

If your form is not so consistent,
if you only tune draw length to the 1/2-inch DL module size...

the 2512 are MUCH more forgiving,
easier to shoot TIGHT groups.


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## Tiroarco (Nov 6, 2012)

Donjr721 said:


> Say if arrows are dynamically the same in weight and spine one is say 32" the other 28". With out regards to weight or spine, I'm wondering if torque would affect the longer arrow more


Everything else being exactly the same then the shorter arrow should perform better because its closer to the "swivel point" (your wrist). Think of vectoring.......the farther out the object the more change in distance it will create despite the angle being the same.
Here is an exaggerated way of thinking about it.......take two sticks, offset one of the sticks and by say.....3 degrees. The distance between the sticks closest anchor point is almost negligible. At the pivot point the distance is "X", however, the farther out you go the wider the distance becomes (X+Y).
Granted this is physics and this doesn't fit the bill for everyone. As BigHUN mentioned, he managed to get the longer ones working better (likely due to his shooting stile, perfecting spine, Shooting 50,000 arrows per season or a multitude of other things)
See below graphic representation

View attachment 2063566


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## Donjr721 (Mar 25, 2013)

I've read everything i can find on weight, spine, tuning, etc. I just haven't seen anything on torque affect a longer or shorter arrow. 

Nuts&bolts, I have your PDF in my phone, I feel guilty reading it more than my bible. 

I definitely know what torque does to my shots LOL. I find when I am under pressure I may torque a hair.


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## bigHUN (Feb 5, 2006)

a good read for you:
http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=2217161


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

Donjr721 said:


> No concerns with material. I'm just curious if torque affects the longer arrow. Whether it's carbon, aluminum, or whatever. Which will suffer most. A shorter arrow or a longer one.


Cannot ignore the material.
It affects your results.

The LONGER aluminum arrow is EASIER to shoot well,
cuz of the material.

Now,
if you want to talk about two sets of X-Cutter Pros
with 90 grain points.

SAME vanes.
Same bow.
Same shooter.

The shorter X-CUTTERS SHOULD shoot tighter groups,
versus
the LONGER X-CUTTERS...

cuz of overhang distance.

Shoot X-Cutters with only 90 grains,
and have a SHORTER overhang.

It works.

Tim Gillingham says so.

I have tried it.

SHORTER overhang for the X-Cutters WORKS,
like 1-inch of overhang
or 3/4-inch of overhang.

BUT,
when we get to specifics...

LONGER 2512s with 100 grain target points

versus
SHORTER X-Cutter Pros with 90 grain target points...

the LONGER 2512s will be EASIER for you to tune,
NOT because of length,
but cuz aluminum arrows are more forgiving...for the AVERAGE JOE shooter.

ULTIMATELY

you gotta shoot both arrows.


For the BEYOND average JOE shooter,
the SHORTER X-Cutters will group tighter.

It all DEPENDS on the shooter.

You can only tune to the level of the shooter.

SIMPLE TEST.

20 yards.
ONE Easton Eclipse 2512 with 100 grains.

FIRE your ONE arrow.
Hang up the bow.
Pull the arrow.

FRESH Target.
ONE hole.

BAck to the shooting line.
FIRE the one arrow, the Easton Eclipse 2512 again.
Hang up the bow.
PULL the arrow.

REPEAT for 30 shots.

LABEL the target as 2512.

Now,
repeat the ONE arrow rest,
30 shots,
walking back and forth
firing the SHORTER, 29-inch X-CUTTER Pro.

LABEL this target as X-CUTTER Pro.

Compare targets.

THIs is a TOUGH TEST.

The target faces
will tell you WHICH arrow is MORE forgiving.

No need for structural engineering theory.

Just use real world results.


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## Donjr721 (Mar 25, 2013)

mgnasi said:


> Everything else being exactly the same then the shorter arrow should perform better because its closer to the "swivel point" (your wrist). Think of vectoring.......the farther out the object the more change in distance it will create despite the angle being the same.
> Here is an exaggerated way of thinking about it.......take two sticks, offset one of the sticks and by say.....3 degrees. The distance between the sticks closest anchor point is almost negligible. At the pivot point the distance is "X", however, the farther out you go the wider the distance becomes (X+Y).
> Granted this is physics and this doesn't fit the bill for everyone. As BigHUN mentioned, he managed to get the longer ones working better (likely due to his shooting stile, perfecting spine, Shooting 50,000 arrows per season or a multitude of other things)
> See below graphic representation
> ...


Thank you, my assumption confirmed.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

If you don't like the 20 yard test,
try a SHORT range test.



One of my online students.
He fired ONE arrow,
pulled the arrow
back to the shooting line

fired the ONE arrow again,
pulled the arrow
back to the shooting line.

HE was instructed to KEEP going
until he MISSED.

Do this for the Easton Eclipse 2512,
and see how many times you can STUFF ONE arrow
in the SAME hole.

Do this for the GoldTip X-Cutter
and see how many times you can STUFF one arrow
in the SAME hole.

WHICH ever target
has MORE hash marks

that is the more FORGIVING arrow.

YOU can try this at 2 yards.
YOU can try this at 5 yards.

YOU pick the training distance.

FIRING ONE arrow
hang up the bow
walk back to the shooting line

FIRE the ONE arrow again,
hang up the bow
walk back to the shooting line

is the REAL test for shooter consistency
is the REAL test for bow tuning forgiveness
is the REAL test for CARBON short arrow versus LONGER aluminum arrow "forgiveness".


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## Donjr721 (Mar 25, 2013)

nuts&bolts said:


> Cannot ignore the material.
> It affects your results.
> 
> The LONGER aluminum arrow is EASIER to shoot well,
> ...


I agree 100%. It was just a curiosity on my part. I am going to shoot both to definitely see what I like better. I'm just chasing those last few elusive x's. (Current avg 50-55). I also think those last few are mental (hence the slight torque problem)

Thank you very much for taking time to help


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## bigHUN (Feb 5, 2006)

mgnasi said:


> ...
> Granted this is physics and this doesn't fit the bill for everyone. As BigHUN mentioned, he managed to get the longer ones working better (likely due to his shooting stile, perfecting spine, Shooting 50,000 arrows per season or a multitude of other things)....


I sad the 450 spine shafts cut shorter... group tighter... but the occasional fliers drop out from group further away and the total score from 144 arrows were lower....
I sad also the 410 spine cut longer...group looser...but the occasional fliers stay closer to the group, and the total score from 144 arrows was higher....
Both arrow dozens were spine matched to the same #57 within a tolerance, but you shall know that already.....one dozen was at the stiffer the other was at the weaker border line of the spectrum...
back to topic
further out is the arrow point from your wrist swivel "axle" will be more vulnerable to torque, closer to swivel point will be more forgiving....


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## Fury90flier (Jun 27, 2012)

arrow lenght doesn't determine forgiveness. If you torque the bow both short and long arrows will be pointed off the same angle. On your short arrows, when torqued, the angle does not stop at the and of the arrow.

take both long and short arrows.
draw a line all the way from the nock to the target on each arrow.
now torque the bow.
which line is off with more angle...arrow a or b

if you have a long arrow, tune for it
if you have a short arrow, tune for it.


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## Tiroarco (Nov 6, 2012)

Fury90flier said:


> arrow lenght doesn't determine forgiveness. If you torque the bow both short and long arrows will be pointed off the same angle. On your short arrows, when torqued, the angle does not stop at the and of the arrow.
> 
> take both long and short arrows.
> draw a line all the way from the nock to the target on each arrow.
> ...


I think we are missing the point here....OP is asking if "all things the same, which is more forgiving". We aren't saying that you can't tune or shoot longer arrows.........just asking what would be best in a perfect world scenario.
I also disagree with your statement. If the tip of the arrow sat directly over your swivel point (the wrist) and you torque the bow the effects will be less than if the arrow tip is sitting 5 inches farther out.


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## Fury90flier (Jun 27, 2012)

mgnasi said:


> I think we are missing the point here....OP is asking if "all things the same, which is more forgiving". We aren't saying that you can't tune or shoot longer arrows.........just asking what would be best in a perfect world scenario.
> I also disagree with your statement. If the tip of the arrow sat directly over your swivel point (the wrist) and you torque the bow the effects will be less than if the arrow tip is sitting 5 inches farther out.


the arrow is still deflected the same amount. Just because it's shorter doesn't effect the result. 

all things being the same mean both arrows are tuned to the bow/shooter not that they have the same specs.


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## swbuckmaster (Dec 20, 2005)

mgnasi said:


> Everything else being exactly the same then the shorter arrow should perform better because its closer to the "swivel point" (your wrist). Think of vectoring.......the farther out the object the more change in distance it will create despite the angle being the same.
> Here is an exaggerated way of thinking about it.......take two sticks, offset one of the sticks and by say.....3 degrees. The distance between the sticks closest anchor point is almost negligible. At the pivot point the distance is "X", however, the farther out you go the wider the distance becomes (X+Y).
> Granted this is physics and this doesn't fit the bill for everyone. As BigHUN mentioned, he managed to get the longer ones working better (likely due to his shooting stile, perfecting spine, Shooting 50,000 arrows per season or a multitude of other things)
> See below graphic representation
> ...


I dont think so. A line is a line or arrow is an arrow. It doesnt matter if the line or arrow is 12" or 20" long the deflection angle in your graph is the same for both arrows. The only thing is you can visually see the longer arrow deflection better in your graph.

You go to vegas and you see Tim with short arrows cut to his blade. You see Chris White with his arrows at full length sticking out in front of his riser. Both guys can shoot 28x 300's. The only way to truly know which is better is to shoot them and keep track of your scores.


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

Getting awful technical here, but seeing this and that.
Going backwards;
Tim, if Gillingham, is pretty set on torque tuning his arrow rest. Last he posted on Facebook was arrow/rest contact 2" back from deepest of the riser grip.
Fury is correct, but maybe not describing so to understand. A long arrow would be effected by torque because the arrow is longer, flex if nothing else.
That the end of the arrow is closer to the wrist doesn't give effect as does arrow/rest contact to the wrist.
That one arrow is aluminum and one arrow carbon all is for nothing. If two aluminum or two carbon, short should prove better.
Only shooting and keeping score will prove.
But then the game. Large diameter arrows meaning for Indoors? If one isn't up to it the best arrow in the world for the set up isn't going help. As noted in so many words by one, short and long arrows have both been used to great success.


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## Fury90flier (Jun 27, 2012)

yes...I don't exactly express myself very well. What makes sense to me often has others scratching their head- wondering what language I'm speaking....lol

maybe if it (forgiveness) were expressed as node placement there would be less confusion...what my understanding of torque tuning really is.


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## Rick! (Aug 10, 2008)

nuts&bolts said:


> but cuz aluminum arrows are more forgiving...


Why? How is an arrow "forgiving?"?


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

Fury90flier said:


> yes...I don't exactly express myself very well. What makes sense to me often has others scratching their head- wondering what language I'm speaking....lol
> 
> maybe if it (forgiveness) were expressed as node placement there would be less confusion...what my understanding of torque tuning really is.


Node  By and large, it seems most cut their arrows one inch longer than point of contact with the launch arm, speed thing.

I love archery. I like trying different things, tuning, arrows, vanes, but when it comes right down to it I want accuracy foremost and I don't care if what I have isn't by the book or by some all great guru.


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## Khaslem (Mar 19, 2012)

So let me try to get back to the original question as I interpreted it. Does a longer arrow just by the merit of it's length give greater or lesser effect by torque....No. Although it appears that a long arrow is facing farther off when the bow is torqued that cannot be true because the angle of deviation is the same between arrows of all lengths. Having a longer arrow simply makes the torque easier to see. So if you had an arrow that was cut 1 inch past the rest and another that was 20 yards past the rest (theoretical) if the bow was torqued the points would be pointed at exactly the same point. 
Now torque tuning is a different beast all together, this is an attempt to make the arrow torque angle match exactly with the opposite rotational torque of the sight moving around grip point ( I know that doesn't make sense how I said it but I sm failing at articulating this idea). Arrow points left, sight is pushed to the right enough to make the archers point of impact center.


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## bigHUN (Feb 5, 2006)

You don't touch the sight (at least not on my bow)..... you tune a.) the swivel axle, in relative to b.) the arrow pointing direction (on all bows I believe).


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

Khaslem said:


> So let me try to get back to the original question as I interpreted it. Does a longer arrow just by the merit of it's length give greater or lesser effect by torque....No. Although it appears that a long arrow is facing farther off when the bow is torqued that cannot be true because the angle of deviation is the same between arrows of all lengths. Having a longer arrow simply makes the torque easier to see. So if you had an arrow that was cut 1 inch past the rest and another that was 20 yards past the rest (theoretical) if the bow was torqued the points would be pointed at exactly the same point.
> Now torque tuning is a different beast all together, this is an attempt to make the arrow torque angle match exactly with the opposite rotational torque of the sight moving around grip point ( I know that doesn't make sense how I said it but I sm failing at articulating this idea). Arrow points left, sight is pushed to the right enough to make the archers point of impact center.


You are mixing up concepts here.

1)...Arrow points left, sight is pushed to the right enough, to make the sight picture AUTO correcting.
......THIS is torque tuning a target sight, by finding the correct extension amount for the target sight extension arm.

TORQUE tuning the sight is not the original poster's question.

2) TORQUE tuning an arrow rest, is moving the arrow rest FORWARDs or BACKWARDS (closer to the shooter's face)
where your arrow rest has a LONG enough frame
to get to a ZERO torque effect,
so that LONG AND SHORT arrows...exhibit the behavior 

in engineering, this is called the instantaneous center of rotation....where the arrow rest support arm is touching the arrow tube
at the instantaneous center of rotation.

This instant center of rotation
is somewhere between the shooters WRIST and the pivot point of the bow, closer to the wrist, but NOT directly above the shooter's wrist.

WHEN you have the arrow rest arm contact point for the arrow tube
directly above the INSTANT center,
THEN,
and ONLY THEN

do you have a ZERO torque effect.

Since most arrow rest frames are NOT long enough to reach the instant center

since MOST arrow rest frames are FORWARDS of the instant center of rotation

then,
a short over hang arrow
versus
a long over hang arrow

WILL exhibit torque effects.

TRY it.

1-inch overhang arrow

versus
3-inch overhang arrow

fired at 100 yards (90 meters)
or
fired at 80 yards.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

Rick! said:


> Why? How is an arrow "forgiving?"?


Take an AVERAGE JOE shooter
with AVERAGE form...
AVERAGE tuning skills.

The more "forgiving arrow" will have more hits into the bullseye

1) with the draw length 1/8th inch too long...or with the draw length 1/8th inch too short.
...wide range of draw length changes, say over a 1/4-inch range..will have a SMALL effect on the size of the arrow groups.

2) TOP cam is at ZERO lean, when at full draw....the "more forgiving arrow" doesn't care and still shoots tight groups
....TOP cam lean is leaning a skosh to the RIGHT, when at full draw...the "more forgiving arrow" doesn't care and still shoots tight groups (no change)
....TOP cam lean is leaning a skosh to the LEFT, when at full draw...the "more forgiving arrow" doesn't care, and still shoots tight groups (no change)

3) arrow rest sideways position is at the SWEET SPOT....the "more forgiving arrow" doesn't care and still shoots tight groups
....arrow rest sideways position is 1/16th away from the SWEET SPOT....the "more forgiving arrow" doesn't care and still shoots tight groups (no change)


The LESS forgiving arrow is EXTREMELY picky about draw length.
The LESS forgiving arrow is VERY VERY picky about TOP cam lean angles. Half a twist in the yoke legs, makes a NOTICEABLE change in the group size.
The LESS forgiving arrow is REALLY picky about arrow rest sideways position. Group tuning the arrow rest sideways position, requires a micro tune rest.


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## oldpro888 (Dec 31, 2010)

Accomplished bowyer here. Back in the late 80s we were shooting 24 inch arrows on an overdraw. Had to shoot mechanicals, only one out at the time, to get a broadhead to fly. Much more critical when the arrow is over the wrist


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## bigHUN (Feb 5, 2006)

oldpro888 said:


> Accomplished bowyer here. Back in the late 80s we were shooting 24 inch arrows on an overdraw. Had to shoot mechanicals, only one out at the time, to get a broadhead to fly. Much more critical when the arrow is over the wrist


I have two accuriser2's and I have some 22.5" long x10s  and no need for overdraw rest.


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

oldpro888 said:


> Accomplished bowyer here. Back in the late 80s we were shooting 24 inch arrows on an overdraw. Had to shoot mechanicals, only one out at the time, to get a broadhead to fly. Much more critical when the arrow is over the wrist


There are a couple of old bows in the back room at the shop with overdraws. To look at them the arrow/rest contact point is behind the wrist. My overdraw bow used a cut shaft length arrow of 25.5" and probably should have been 1/2" to 1" longer considering my 29" draw.


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## sixstringer4528 (Feb 28, 2014)

Exactly how long is a full arrow?


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## swbuckmaster (Dec 20, 2005)

oldpro888 said:


> Much more critical when the arrow is over the wrist


If thats so then why is randy ulmer and other guys sticking the rest way behind the wrist? Heck randy glued a rest to the circular carbon tube and the rest is probably 4" behind the wrist. 

My theory is randys carbon bow with rollers was shooting with alot of lateral torque. Meaning arrow wasnt lined up with pins at rest and was lined up with the arrow at full draw. Moving the rest back he may have found the spot where the arrow is lined up with the sight at rest and full draw thus cancelling out the effects of lateral torque making the bow more forgiving on the shot. I dont think it has anything to do with being over your wrist. A simple test to test my theory would be to put the bow on a draw board and play with rest position and look at how the arrow lines up with sight at rest and full draw.


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

swbuckmaster said:


> If thats so then why is randy ulmer and other guys sticking the rest way behind the wrist? Heck randy glued a rest to the circular carbon tube and the rest is probably 4" behind the wrist.
> 
> My theory is randys carbon bow with rollers was shooting with alot of lateral torque. Meaning arrow wasnt lined up with pins at rest and was lined up with the arrow at full draw. Moving the rest back he may have found the spot where the arrow is lined up with the sight at rest and full draw thus cancelling out the effects of lateral torque making the bow more forgiving on the shot. I dont think it has anything to do with being over your wrist. A simple test to test my theory would be to put the bow on a draw board and play with rest position and look at how the arrow lines up with sight at rest and full draw.


4" behind the wrist is a bunch. You have a picture? Here's my 2000 Hoyt UltraTec. Arrow/prong contact is 2 3/8" back from deepest of the riser grip or about center of my wrist...


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## swbuckmaster (Dec 20, 2005)

No I dont have a photo but his is alot further back then yours. His rest isnt even attached to his riser. Its glued or bolted to the carbon arc on the back of the bow


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

Well, that's a four inch vane in my picture, so understand my doubting 4" behind the wrist....


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## swbuckmaster (Dec 20, 2005)

Well 2 3/8" insnt that deep compaired to his rest. Like I said his is more like 4" and its not over his wrist its behind his wrist


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## Rick! (Aug 10, 2008)

nuts&bolts said:


> Take an AVERAGE JOE shooter
> with AVERAGE form...
> AVERAGE tuning skills.
> 
> ...


Ok, lots of stuff about what will affect POI but it doesn't tell me why an aluminum arrow is more "forgiving." If it relates to node tuning, I get it. Since this is the A-I forum, Avg Joe is not really relevant. Let's assume the bow is tuned properly, does it matter what flavor shaft is used for indoor spots?


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

swbuckmaster said:


> Well 2 3/8" insnt that deep compaired to his rest. Like I said his is more like 4" and its not over his wrist its behind his wrist


If 4" from the deepest of the riser grip, okay, I can buy that....


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

Rick! said:


> Ok, lots of stuff about what will affect POI but it doesn't tell me why an aluminum arrow is more "forgiving." If it relates to node tuning, I get it. Since this is the A-I forum, Avg Joe is not really relevant. Let's assume the bow is tuned properly, does it matter what flavor shaft is used for indoor spots?


The Poster questioned of his two arrows, which would be more forgiving, the aluminum and carbon along without changing his bow. Later he gave of both having different lengths, the aluminum being 2" longer. Carbon; 29" with 90 gr tips. Aluminum; 31" with 100 gr tips.

So your question, no, it doesn't matter the flavor. Both have proven one hole accuracy.


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## Joe Schnur (Mar 22, 2012)

Experience says arrow for arrow unless damaged aluminum is straighter Han most carbon and a lot less expensive torque will effect both arrows the same since it is the rest vs the anchor that is moving based on the torque so same torque same point of impact regardless of arrow all other things equal spine etc.


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## ron w (Jan 5, 2013)

a forgivin arrow will flex and return to 
in column", without deviating from it's intended path of flight. being "over" or "under" spined, alters this characteristic slightly. the more it alters it, the less "forgiving" the arrow is.
simply put, the ultimately forgiving arrow is one that is exactly matched to the correct spine for the bow and it's set up. it is the reason we strive to have the bow set up as perfectly as possible and work to execute the shot a perfectly as we can. the better we do these two things, the wider the window is, that the bow will shoot an arrow that is not perfectly spined.


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## bigHUN (Feb 5, 2006)

ron w said:


> ... simply put, the ultimately forgiving arrow is one that is exactly matched to the correct spine for the bow and it's set up. it is the reason we strive to have the bow set up as perfectly as possible and work to execute the shot a perfectly as we can. ....


The bow and the arrow perfectly tuned to each other, the result looks like this, my long range FITA competition setup


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

bigHUN said:


> The bow and the arrow perfectly tuned to each other, the result looks like this, my long range FITA competition setup
> 
> Shoot through all....not really a fair assessment, is it?


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## Joe Schnur (Mar 22, 2012)

Not really not everyone can afford ok archery


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## bigHUN (Feb 5, 2006)

SonnyThomas said:


> Shoot through all....not really a fair assessment, is it?


I believe you can come close to the single plane with any other brand bow but spine plan the arrows 100% to that powerstroke,
but .... people just like to use overspined arrows and not cutting them down to bare minimum length....because then need overdraw rest...
I have seen pins sticking out to left at least for 1/4"..

It was a long ago I shoot a cable guard bow, it was a 05 BT Constitution, still have it hanging in my basement. That was probably BT's most precise target bows all time I won my first FITA provincials with it. I had CX nano's cut and tuned to the bow the pin was inline with the cams and resting point. 
I know, I did it, its possible.


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

And perhaps Bowtech had something going back in 2005. My '05 Old Glory was much the same, pin virtually right in line with the arrow/string. I've never had a bow before or since that my pin was in line with my arrow/string. All before and all after has been draw weight, draw length and arrows. The only thing I disliked about the Old Glory was it's aggressive cams. I had it turned down to 47 pounds to shoot the IAA Indoor Championship. Still have the birth certificate, (just looked; 60.8 pounds, 29", velocity of 290 fps). '06 brought the "Smoothie" cams and wouldn't fit to the '05 Old Glory.


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## bigHUN (Feb 5, 2006)

Joe Schnur said:


> Not really not everyone can afford ok archery


With developed skills we develop preferences, or more like requirements, and start looking and searching for elements, details.
When you find a " missing " ingredient you will be ready to pay for it.
BTW, I don't think the top of the line Hoyt is much off with the ticket price....


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## BrokenLimbs (Nov 25, 2008)

bigHUN said:


> With developed skills we develop preferences, or more like requirements, and start looking and searching for elements, details.
> When you find a " missing " ingredient you will be ready to pay for it...


Very well said & how very true IMO.....

Interesting read (this thread.) Glad I fell upon it. A few posts down I learned something new and had to look over my bows for comparison. (Putting "2 & 2 together", I also thought about the overdraws of years gone before finding the subsequent posts referencing overdraws.) On that note: I was pleasantly surprised to find that my rests are horizontally located almost exactly where they should be. (over the pivot point) And they are IMO quite forgiving setups. I'll probably get laughed at on this statement (here on this thread) but: I shoot a whisker biscuit (have all my life.) I'm a hunter, I shoot regularly, just not "competitively."


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