# Should arrow be level with rest and d loop?



## archeryguru2000

Do you have a drop-away rest installed? Just had to ask that question. Honestly, I'd shoot through some paper and see how well it shoots. If it's shooting great, it's probably just the way you're looking at the arrow. If it is not shooting good (i.e., tail high or low) then either the nock point (D-loop) or arrow rest may need to be moved.


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## FS560

I do not use dropaway rests and rely on blades. However, I do use a bowsquare to find a nocking point that positions the bottom of the arrow square to the string and sitting on the arrow rest.

It is important to allow for the distance between the bottom of the nock and the bottom of the shaft.

From this point I may have to raise the nock a little so that the arrow will get up off the blade during the shot.


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## tripleb2431

Nock point should not be below the rest should be level or maybe 1/8th high I'd make it level then walk back tune then broadhead tune it bh tune will tell ya what rest is really doing if you have the means to do it and want that thing really in tune then yoke tune it also


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## ru4auto

I agree ^^^^ with one exception shoot it through paper first alot of bows are set up 1/8 knock high giving it that down hill look, this guy might just be able to do it by eye. It would seem like he couldn't. i still use a level system, and the owner of the shop can do it buy eye (i have checked dead on.)


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## tripleb2431

I agree if your nock is little higher than you arrow on your rest than just bh tune from there don't worry about leveling it that will get fixed in bh tuning but the way I was picturing your arrow when read your post was nock is lower than your arrow on rest if that's case make it level or 1/8th high before you start bh tune


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## CBWalk

The D Loop is about 1/8 in higher than the rest. I got it sighted in out to 50 and shooting fine. It just didn't look quite right. I have a QAD HDX rest on my bow


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## tripleb2431

1/8th inch high is fine


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## PatrickH85

Silly to assume an 1/8" high is okay when your taught to make level. I am a bow technician obviously searching for the correct answer. Why do we have all the advanced tools to make a d-loop level in the tech world, when every time a manufacturer sends a d-loop out of the factory "a nock high" as "set." Looking for the truth in this matter. Please post.


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## tripleb2431

Starting at level is starting point. Then ya let the bow tell ya what it needs to tune. So if it tunes 1/8th" high no biggie. Especially for like a single cam.


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## Tracker12

tripleb2431 said:


> Starting at level is starting point. Then ya let the bow tell ya what it needs to tune. So if it tunes 1/8th" high no biggie. Especially for like a single cam.


What he said.


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## ron w

FS560 said:


> From this point I may have to raise the nock a little so that the arrow will get up off the blade during the shot.


 this is an important point !. most people don't consider that the rest is just there to give the arrow a starting position for the bow to launch it from. once the arrow is moving under the bow's thrust, the rest may nit as well be there and is actually only in the way from that point on,.....the bow is going to dictate how the arrow moves once it is being pushed, so the rest only puts the arrow in the best position for the bow to push it to top speed,...hence,....an arrow that has a bit of high nock, gets up off the rest and out of it's way the instant it starts being pushed, because the first reaction of the arrow is downward, into the rest and the rest then springs the arrow back up in line with the nock, as it leaves the bow. this detail is why blade thickness is important with a blade rest and cannot be accounted for with any style of drop-away that drops as the arrow starts moving.


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## Luke Cool

ron w said:


> this is an important point !. most people don't consider that the rest is just there to give the arrow a starting position for the bow to launch it from. once the arrow is moving under the bow's thrust, the rest may nit as well be there and is actually only in the way from that point on,.....the bow is going to dictate how the arrow moves once it is being pushed, so the rest only puts the arrow in the best position for the bow to push it to top speed,...hence,....an arrow that has a bit of high nock, gets up off the rest and out of it's way the instant it starts being pushed, because the first reaction of the arrow is downward, into the rest and the rest then springs the arrow back up in line with the nock, as it leaves the bow. this detail is why blade thickness is important with a blade rest and cannot be accounted for with any style of drop-away that drops as the arrow starts moving.


This comes from a manual I wrote on how to adjust a compound bow. 
For the purposes of this thread, only the information that pertains to the vertical adjustment is needed. 

If you understand the forces that our bows are designed to utilize, you will better understand the adjustments, and how and why to make them. To start, let’s look at our bows from a physics stand point. A bow is a human powered weapon. The hold (pivot) points for drawing and discharging an arrow are the D-Loop or string, and the top center of the handle where your thumb and first finger hold it. Take note that “the bottom three fingers are not used during the aim and release process”. The way the riser is held can change the arrow’s trajectory. Grabbing the grip with your whole hand will lower the front of the draw’s force vector. That’s right; any changes in grip, affects the direction of the force vector that is applied to the propulsion of the arrow, therefore, affects the aim. This force vector that is created by the draw is what determines the arrow rest’s alignment. Some say that for the arrow rest’s adjustment, the arrow should be parallel to the riser’s arrow cradle, OR align an arrow to be straight with the cam or limbs. These places have little to nothing to do with the arrow’s launch vector. Unless a coincidence is involved, these methods work poorly. Once released, it takes 1/50th of a second for an arrow to leave the bow. This force vector that propels the arrow, is created by an opposition to separation; it is more logical to aligning the arrow’s trajectory to the points that are forced apart to store the energy that is used to propel the arrow. As an arrow is launched, it pulls at the place the bow is held by your hand, AND at the weight of the bow. Horizontal alignment is easy. A perfect vertical alignment is not possible due to the bow’s design. Because of the front hold point is under the arrow rest and the rear hold point is on the string at a little higher level, it is not possible for the launch vector and the arrow to be parallel. This will make the arrow and string to where IF they are at a 90 degree angle from each other, the arrow hitting the rest progressively harder will make the back of the arrow flip up during its launch. This obstruction to the arrow’s flow will drastically slow the arrow down and affect its trajectory and your aim. Because of this, an off-set will be needed to counter this torque. This is the reason the back of the arrow needs to be a little high. Even with a drop-away, the arrow needs to be pointed in the correct direction when released. The correct direction is determined purely by the launch power's vector.


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## jordonsc

This was a really interesting read, thanks everyone who posted details on how an arrow picks up during launch. I'm curious though, how would a whisker biscuit style rest effect the pick up? My d-loop is ~ 1/8th high and I have a whisker biscuit, the two feel counter-productive?

Am I right in assuming that a blade rest might be a wise investment?

Thanks


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## Archer-Boy

Luke Cool said:


> This comes from a manual I wrote on how to adjust a compound bow.
> For the purposes of this thread, only the information that pertains to the vertical adjustment is needed.
> 
> If you understand the forces that our bows are designed to utilize, you will better understand the adjustments, and how and why to make them. To start, let’s look at our bows from a physics stand point. A bow is a human powered weapon. The hold (pivot) points for drawing and discharging an arrow are the D-Loop or string, and the top center of the handle where your thumb and first finger hold it. Take note that “the bottom three fingers are not used during the aim and release process”. The way the riser is held can change the arrow’s trajectory. Grabbing the grip with your whole hand will lower the front of the draw’s force vector. That’s right; any changes in grip, affects the direction of the force vector that is applied to the propulsion of the arrow, therefore, affects the aim. This force vector that is created by the draw is what determines the arrow rest’s alignment. Some say that for the arrow rest’s adjustment, the arrow should be parallel to the riser’s arrow cradle, OR align an arrow to be straight with the cam or limbs. These places have little to nothing to do with the arrow’s launch vector. Unless a coincidence is involved, these methods work poorly. Once released, it takes 1/50th of a second for an arrow to leave the bow. This force vector that propels the arrow, is created by an opposition to separation; it is more logical to aligning the arrow’s trajectory to the points that are forced apart to store the energy that is used to propel the arrow. As an arrow is launched, it pulls at the place the bow is held by your hand, AND at the weight of the bow. Horizontal alignment is easy. A perfect vertical alignment is not possible due to the bow’s design. Because of the front hold point is under the arrow rest and the rear hold point is on the string at a little higher level, it is not possible for the launch vector and the arrow to be parallel. This will make the arrow and string to where IF they are at a 90 degree angle from each other, the arrow hitting the rest progressively harder will make the back of the arrow flip up during its launch. This obstruction to the arrow’s flow will drastically slow the arrow down and affect its trajectory and your aim. Because of this, an off-set will be needed to counter this torque. This is the reason the back of the arrow needs to be a little high. Even with a drop-away, the arrow needs to be pointed in the correct direction when released. The correct direction is determined purely by the launch power's vector.


Thanks for the detailed account. It makes perfect sense technically. Question is how could the spine of an arrow shaft be included in this equation? A weaker one in particular?


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## Luke Cool

Archer-Boy said:


> Thanks for the detailed account. It makes perfect sense technically. Question is how could the spine of an arrow shaft be included in this equation? A weaker one in particular?


All arrows will oscillate as they go through the air. As the arrow leaves the knock, if the rest is misaligned, the cable rod and the knock will jump in the direction of the misalignment. The bow does this because the arrow pushes on the bow just as hard as the bow pushes the arrow. A weaker spine of an arrow shaft is not as resistant to misaligned and/or powerful bows. A perfect alignment to compensate for a compound bow's normally imperfect thrust vector is not possible. A useable alignment is obtainable, but the more force you apply to an arrow, the stiffer it will need to be to minimize the oscillations to an aim-able level.


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## Luke Cool

jordonsc said:


> This was a really interesting read, thanks everyone who posted details on how an arrow picks up during launch. I'm curious though, how would a whisker biscuit style rest effect the pick up? My d-loop is ~ 1/8th high and I have a whisker biscuit, the two feel counter-productive?
> 
> Am I right in assuming that a blade rest might be a wise investment?
> 
> Thanks


The whisker biscuit is a great rest. When aligned properly, it has no influence on an arrows trajectory, and very little influence on its speed. Unless it is worn out, it is a foolproof rest.
If an arrow's flight touches a blade rest, it applies influence to the back bottom of the arrow. This creates an inconsistency that becomes evident at longer ranges. I am not a big fan of blade rest. 
A correctly adjusted drop-away is great, and they are pretty dependable. it has no influence on an arrows trajectory, and no influence on its speed. I love drop-aways, but I always use a whisker biscuit on my hunting bow.


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## Luke Cool

I have found that the d-loop should be adjusted 1/8th of an inch high from the rest's center to compensate for the bow's thrust vector being generated between the holding point under the bow mass's vertical center, and the D-loop. 
And, on a right-hand bow, the rest should be adjusted a little less than 1/8th of an inch to the right from the bow's center to compensate for the bow mass's horizontal center being located to the right of the bow's center.
I use a "Saunders Forked Horn Bow Square ($15)" to help with the D-loop placement. 
For the rest's horizontal alignment, I use the bow's center marker. If the bow's center is not marked, I align it between the string and the center of the handle.
This should get your bow to where very little additional tuning should be needed. After paper tuning, I have noticed most bows are close to these settings.
The correct alignment is determined purely by the launch power's vector. A vector is a measured force in a specified direction.
The launch power's vector is created between the forced separation facilitated by the draw, and the bow's weight distribution as the bow is being held.


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