# Why Do We Award Ourselves With Points for a Poor Shot?



## meyerske (Dec 26, 2004)

I've never been able to figure out why we award ourselves five points for hitting a 3D animal in the hindquarter, leg, neck, gut, etc. This sends a bad message: "Oh, man, I'm glad that I hit the leg".

Seems to me we should be deducting points for hits out of the 8 zone.


----------



## Jose Boudreaux (Oct 18, 2003)

I've only been to a few shoots but I've never heard someone be glad about hitting the leg as you put it.....  

most want a 10 or 12....happy with an 8.....

man over here used to shoot lots of 3D years ago and said at one shoot in arkansas or somewhere you had points taken away for wounds.....better to miss than wound.....

of course most ranges don't allow range finders so it's not like we are practicing for hunting anyway, and I don't use a scope and a 30" stab and glue in bullet points to hunt with


----------



## dbowers (Mar 24, 2004)

I coulda sworn 3D was a sport....

With a scoring system? So if your shooting field or dots and dont get the X its a bad shot and shouldn't be scored


----------



## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

*Deermans assc*

Doesnt award you. Actually you get -5 is you hit there. OUCH


----------



## hunter111 (Mar 5, 2003)

meyerske said:


> I've never been able to figure out why we award ourselves five points for hitting a 3D animal in the hindquarter, leg, neck, gut, etc. This sends a bad message: "Oh, man, I'm glad that I hit the leg".
> 
> Seems to me we should be deducting points for hits out of the 8 zone.


3D is not hunting... 
It is just another venue in archery that uses a scoring system.

If I thought of it as only hunting then I would have to pass ALL shots over 20yds and I also would not be able to count points hitting 12's when the target is angled as the true heart shot is not in the circle.

Use 3D for what it is... just another form of target archery.....


----------



## XADDICT (Apr 12, 2005)

dbowers said:


> I coulda sworn 3D was a sport....
> 
> With a scoring system? So if your shooting field or dots and dont get the X its a bad shot and shouldn't be scored




Very true :thumbs_up


----------



## HCAman (Nov 3, 2003)

hunter111 said:


> 3D is not hunting...
> It is just another venue in archery that uses a scoring system.
> 
> If I thought of it as only hunting then I would have to pass ALL shots over 20yds and I also would not be able to count points hitting 12's when the target is angled as the true heart shot is not in the circle.
> ...


My thoughts exactly


----------



## meyerske (Dec 26, 2004)

I think my point was missed.

We all know that 3D is a sport that simulates hunting. If you hit the target outside of the kill zone (8, 10 and 12), you still get points. That is a positive reward for a negative action.

With hunting, the stakes are huge; an animal's life. There should be more reinforcement on the 3D course that a poor shot does not deserve anything positive. Points should be deducted from your score not added. We've all just clipped the top or bottom of a 3D target and been relieved that we didn't miss (we got 5 points; better than none). That's like striking out and going to base.

3D is great hunting practice. But on a 3D course a 5 is better than a miss, and in hunting, a miss is better than a wound (5).

Keep in mind, this is just my opinion.


----------



## hunter111 (Mar 5, 2003)

meyerske said:


> I think my point was missed.
> 
> 3D is great hunting practice. But on a 3D course a 5 is better than a miss, and in hunting, a miss is better than a wound (5).
> 
> Keep in mind, this is just my opinion.


I use to think the same thing but soon came to realize 3D is nothing like hunting....
My two kids that shoot 3D are very happy when they hit the target... For hitting the target they are rewarded points which makes them smile....
My wife is a non-hunter and doesn't shoot all that much... If I took points away from her how often do you think she would shoot....
I am a competitive archer and if it isn't a 12 then it is a miss to me...
The point system is setup for everyone and not just hunters....

Where I hunt, I am in a tree stand and have every trail marked as to what the yardage is. I never get a completely still animal and I use broadheads for hunting which is another completely different obstacle. Additionally, I never take a shot over 20yds....
When I practice for hunting I put on my full hunting clothing including coat etc. and shoot broadheads from a tree stand into an old 3D target...

To me, the only thing that 3D and hunting have in common is the shape of the target... nothing more....

Don't get me wrong.... I do believe 3D will help your shooting for hunting but I also believe Indoor target archery and field shooting will too...

Good luck in whatever you choose......


----------



## f1maxis (Feb 24, 2004)

hunter111 said:


> To me, the only thing that 3D and hunting have in common is the shape of the target... nothing more....


That about sums it up right there.

I shoot a lot of 3-d tournaments becuause I love the sport, but that's just it, it's a game like anything else. Many, many times the 10 and/or 12 ring is not in the exact place that I would shoot that particular animal in a real-world hunting situation.

Use 3-d to hone your yardage judging skills and make yourself put the arrow where you want it to go, whether it's in the 12 ring of a McKenzie or the heart of a live whitetail. :wink:


----------



## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

*I hunted 5yrs*

Never killed a deer.

Joined a 3d club and killed my first deer with a help from members in the club on equipment

Now that was some 25 yrs ago and still love shooting 3d today.

Would have never been a competitive archer in indoor and field without shooting 3d first. That says it all for me.


----------



## Oregon Shooter (Jul 30, 2002)

> We all know that 3D is a sport that simulates hunting.


ill have to disagree with this statement. the only similarity is the shape of the targets. thats it.


----------



## meyerske (Dec 26, 2004)

Oregon Shooter said:


> ill have to disagree with this statement. the only similarity is the shape of the targets. thats it.


You are judging distance on a three dimensional replica of a real animal, set up in a realistic outdoor setting (most of the time). You are trying to hit the target in the same spot as a real animal to get the most points (again, for the most part). 3D shooting is meant to replicate hunting situations on animals that are hunted. We have treestand shots, shots where the shooter has to crouch, moving targets, etc. There is much more than just the shape of the target at hand. You are practicing for hunting.

3D is meant to be fun and it is fun, but I think the stakes should be higher for a poor shot, just like they are in hunting. This doesn't make it any less fun. It is just a different way of scoring. Why should we award ourselves points for a poor shot? 

I don't mean to beat this topic to death, I just wanted to see the response. Apparently most (all? :wink: ) people disagree with me on this.


----------



## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

*I get it!*



meyerske said:


> You are judging distance on a three dimensional replica of a real animal, set up in a realistic outdoor setting (most of the time). You are trying to hit the target in the same spot as a real animal to get the most points (again, for the most part). 3D shooting is meant to replicate hunting situations on animals that are hunted. We have treestand shots, shots where the shooter has to crouch, moving targets, etc. There is much more than just the shape of the target at hand. You are practicing for hunting.
> 
> 3D is meant to be fun and it is fun, but I think the stakes should be higher for a poor shot, just like they are in hunting. This doesn't make it any less fun. It is just a different way of scoring. Why should we award ourselves points for a poor shot?
> 
> I don't mean to beat this topic to death, I just wanted to see the response. Apparently most (all? :wink: ) people disagree with me on this.


I get it. You would like the deermans. They make your sqaut, sit and reach out and shoot through brush. Hunters understand. 3ders make good hunters


----------



## Jose Boudreaux (Oct 18, 2003)

I see where you are coming from but would reall hate that scoring....I've also passed up shots at deer due to wind blowing too hard, branches in the way....not gonna pass up any shot at a 3D shoot  

also you said



> That's like striking out and going to base.


if the catcher drops the ball.........   

God Bless, JB


----------



## Sparks (Oct 28, 2003)

*Our scoring system*

We just completed our club's hunter warm-up 3D. We made up our own scoring system for the shoot. 

Super Kills = 3 (normally 12), 
Inter Kill = 2 (normally 10), 
Outer kill = 1 (normally 8), 
any other hit to the body = -1 (one point deduction) (normally 5) 
and total miss = 0

Received a lot of positive feedback from the shooter. Plus, working with the small numbers is a lot easier.


----------



## RxBowhunter (Feb 16, 2005)

hunter111 said:


> 3D is not hunting...
> It is just another venue in archery that uses a scoring system.
> 
> If I thought of it as only hunting then I would have to pass ALL shots over 20yds and I also would not be able to count points hitting 12's when the target is angled as the true heart shot is not in the circle.
> ...


Ditto.


----------



## meyerske (Dec 26, 2004)

Sparks said:


> We just completed our club's hunter warm-up 3D. We made up our own scoring system for the shoot.
> 
> Super Kills = 3 (normally 12),
> Inter Kill = 2 (normally 10),
> ...


This seems like a good scoring system for 3D! Makes good sense to me. :thumbs_up


----------



## phatbowman1 (Apr 27, 2005)

or how about somebody who misjudges the yardage by 5 or 6 yards, but then proceeds to make a absolutely horrible shot and some how cascades his aarow into the 11 when you may misjudge it buy the same distance and execute a perfect shot and you drop into a low 8? just not fair, 3-D is not archery it is who can judge yardage the best, archery is how good you can shoot your bow, 3-D is not its whos gona be the luckiest and have the best day today


----------



## Seth the XSlayr (Feb 20, 2005)

How else would we get points?!


----------



## XADDICT (Apr 12, 2005)

phatbowman1 said:


> or how about somebody who misjudges the yardage by 5 or 6 yards, but then proceeds to make a absolutely horrible shot and some how cascades his aarow into the 11 when you may misjudge it buy the same distance and execute a perfect shot and you drop into a low 8? just not fair, 3-D is not archery it is who can judge yardage the best, archery is how good you can shoot your bow, 3-D is not its whos gona be the luckiest and have the best day today


 Alot of spotties who can't judge yardage say that.


----------



## phatbowman1 (Apr 27, 2005)

i am not a spottie who cant judge yardage thank you very much, i have posted some very respectable scores in the IBO and the ASA and have been in this sport for quite some time but i often wondered why there was really no dominater in the 3-D where in fita there is a few greats that everyones trying to catch? do you think jeff hopkins and mcarthy are great archers? they definately are the best of the best, but do you think that they are even close do dave cousins or gellentien? no way yet put on a unmarked 3-D course there is a very good chance that the 2 best archers on the face of the planet would be beaten, because there not the best archer there? no because there yardage wasnt as good, i agree that yardage is the name of the game in 3-D and it is a great sport but please do not confuse it with target archery


----------



## ElCasador (Jul 19, 2005)

hunter111 said:


> 3D is not hunting...
> It is just another venue in archery that uses a scoring system.
> 
> If I thought of it as only hunting then I would have to pass ALL shots over 20yds and I also would not be able to count points hitting 12's when the target is angled as the true heart shot is not in the circle.
> ...



What do you shoot? A recurve. I've noticed many archers from the east limit shots to 20-25 yards. Do you guys only hunt from tree tops. Here out west we spot and stalk deer from 500-2000 yards away. It takes a while but very rewarding way to hunt. 40 yard shots are the most common. As for 3d, i think there should be a deduction for any hit outside vitalls. Its a fun sport meant to better yourself as a hunter. There should never be a 3d animal set up on a 3d shoot that is not positioned in an acceptable angle that you would'nt shoot at a live animal. my 2cts.


----------



## Rickb6959 (Jul 11, 2005)

meyerske said:


> I've never been able to figure out why we award ourselves five points for hitting a 3D animal in the hindquarter, leg, neck, gut, etc. This sends a bad message: "Oh, man, I'm glad that I hit the leg".
> 
> Seems to me we should be deducting points for hits out of the 8 zone.




Yea Whats up wid dat. I seem wrong to me to.


----------



## Doc (Jun 10, 2003)

I consider a 5 as a bad score and a significant deduction. If you shoot in a 3D tournament and "wound an animal" (in other words shoot a 5), odds are pretty good that you have just significantly decreased your chances of winning unless you shoot a ton of X's to make up for that 5. So I don't think a 5 is a reward, but a serious deduction. You are losing more then 50% of the possible points for that target.
Enough with does/does not 3D simulate hunting. It is all up to the individual and how they perceive it. Does 3D help you with form? Yes. Does 3D help you estimate yardage? Yes. Does 3D help you with shot execution? Yes. Do you only get 1 shot at a target in 3D? Yes. Do the 3D targets move? No. Do you have to track the 3D targets to get your score? No. Do foam backstraps taste good? No. Do 3D targets jump the string? No. 
Anything be it 3D or not that allows the individual to practice form, shot execution, shot placement and yardage estimation is going to help with hunting.


----------



## Bees (Jan 28, 2003)

the number one reason why you get a five for hitting the target:

Drum roll Please.

Cause it's the 3D rules


----------



## sdzumbro (May 21, 2002)

Hopkins has won Vegas and I'm fairly certain Cousins was there .


----------



## meyerske (Dec 26, 2004)

I could go out and shoot a 30 target course and make a gut shot on every target and score a 150...just doesn't seem right.


----------



## Doc (Jun 10, 2003)

meyerske said:


> I could go out and shoot a 30 target course and make a gut shot on every target and score a 150...just doesn't seem right.


Why not? You would finish very close to last place with a 150. I think there are tournaments called Fred Bear something-or-other where they score just like you are referring to. I believe there are even some targets you have to pass up in order to score well on them.


----------



## hunter111 (Mar 5, 2003)

ElCasador said:


> What do you shoot? A recurve. I've noticed many archers from the east limit shots to 20-25 yards. Do you guys only hunt from tree tops. Here out west we spot and stalk deer from 500-2000 yards away. It takes a while but very rewarding way to hunt. 40 yard shots are the most common. As for 3d, i think there should be a deduction for any hit outside vitalls. Its a fun sport meant to better yourself as a hunter. There should never be a 3d animal set up on a 3d shoot that is not positioned in an acceptable angle that you would'nt shoot at a live animal. my 2cts.


I shoot compound and yes, from a tree stand... I have had deer jump the string even at 20yds so I am more than just a little leery of 30+yd shots... That’s my ethics and I won’t push them on you or anyone else...

Maybe the answer is to try to get the local club to setup a "Hunting Practice Only" class that uses a different scoring system then the one routinely used.... 

Most of our local clubs try to do something a little more hunting oriented nearing hunting season by putting more deer targets out and placing them closer to the shooting stakes... This allows those hunters that don't shoot year round to get in a quick round before realt time starts.


----------



## meyerske (Dec 26, 2004)

Doc said:


> Why not? You would finish very close to last place with a 150. I think there are tournaments called Fred Bear something-or-other where they score just like you are referring to. I believe there are even some targets you have to pass up in order to score well on them.


Because if you and I are tied neck-and-neck at target 25 for instance, now the pressure becomes much greater to NOT get an out-of-kill shot (say, -5 points). It would be tough to bounce back from a point deduction. Whereas if you shoot a 10 and I shoot a five (very unlikely :wink: ), I'm still in the game. I think the punishment fits the "crime" better.

It is all just personal preference, and your point is well taken.


----------



## hunter111 (Mar 5, 2003)

meyerske said:


> I could go out and shoot a 30 target course and make a gut shot on every target and score a 150...just doesn't seem right.


...and if we subtracted 5 points for each non-vital area shot you would have a -150 score... where as the guy that missed every target except one would have kicked your butt by 145 points....

Doesn't matter the point value... a poor shot is a poor shot.....


----------



## ElCasador (Jul 19, 2005)

hunter111 said:


> I shoot compound and yes, from a tree stand... I have had deer jump the string even at 20yds so I am more than just a little leery of 30+yd shots... That’s my ethics and I won’t push them on you or anyone else...
> 
> Maybe the answer is to try to get the local club to setup a "Hunting Practice Only" class that uses a different scoring system then the one routinely used....
> 
> Most of our local clubs try to do something a little more hunting oriented nearing hunting season by putting more deer targets out and placing them closer to the shooting stakes... This allows those hunters that don't shoot year round to get in a quick round before realt time starts.


 I Admire your ethics. If you shoot a loud bow than i quess the smart thing to do would be to keep shots closer. With technology today it's easily possible to extend that comfortable shooting range My Bowtech Allegiance set up with an STS system does'nt make hardly any noise and pushes a 380gr hunting arrow at 300fps. I think as bows get better our capabillites with those bows also get better. I have never practiced enough at 50-60 yards to feel confident enough not to injure an animal, but there are plenty of antelope hunters out west that are very proficient at killing antelope 50-60 yards out. Our bows today are awesome! Good hunting!


----------



## MEarchernut (Dec 21, 2004)

meyerske said:


> I could go out and shoot a 30 target course and make a gut shot on every target and score a 150...just doesn't seem right.




Ummmmmm.................In case no one ever told you this a score of 150 on a 30 target course sucks big time !!!!!     

Don't misunderstand me I'm not talking about young kids or beggining archers - but for anyone who has been shooting for any length of time at all 150 is a joke!

I think what you need to realize is that 3d is not hunting in any way shape or form - at least not if you are competing and keeping score - if you aren't turning in a score then score it however you want to - I think most of us who compete would prefer to leave things the way they are - believe me losing 5 points is bad enough and then some!


----------



## reylamb (Feb 5, 2003)

Because 3D is a for of target archery and not hunting.........and hitting the target at all is better than missing.

Because 3D and hunting are not one in the same......when was the last time you hunted with field tips, walked up to a critter, took the time to use binos to find scoring rings, estimated the yardage, executed the shot and did all of the above with a group of friends without said critter running away?

Because 3D is to hunting as putt-putt is to golf........


----------



## Mexican 3D (Nov 16, 2003)

hunter111 said:


> ...and if we subtracted 5 points for each non-vital area shot you would have a -150 score... where as the guy that missed every target except one would have kicked your butt by 145 points....
> 
> Doesn't matter the point value... a poor shot is a poor shot.....



155 actually...


----------



## Milsurp (Dec 15, 2003)

Dan wrote:

"Never killed a deer.

Joined a 3d club and killed my first deer with a help from members in the club on equipment"

Same thing with me, but it was only last year.
:embarasse


----------



## Bellows1 (Oct 19, 2003)

I think it is fine the way it is. We don't get points for passing on a difficult shot. Who decides what is a kill shot? Is the top of the spine a kill shot from an elevated stand? Awkward angle shots are common at our range, (quartering to and from, up or down) but still use the same kill zone. If every shot was 30 yards straight on, it would get boring after a while. 

I would hate to see people missing on pupose, rather then have to make a difficult shot. That would be a 10 point swing, many shoots are won or lost by 1 point. If your going to the final target with a 4 point leed, will you shoot and maybe get a -5 or drill a tree for the win. 

I could agree with a 0 outside of the kill zone , but not a negitive #.

Bill


----------



## Stroud Creek (Jan 13, 2004)

meyerske before you can understand the replys to your ? you have to understand the 3-D has nothing to do with hunting. I dont hunt with anything that even looks like the bow I shoot 3-D with, I would never take shoots hunting that I take on the 3-D rang. Now, I will say that 3-D has made me a much better hunter as far as making the shoot, but 3-D is what 3-D is and nothing more.


----------



## meyerske (Dec 26, 2004)

Stroud Creek said:


> you have to understand that 3-D has nothing to do with hunting.


Stroud Creek - I couldn't disagree with you more, but we are all entitled to our opinion. :thumbs_up


----------



## Marcus (Jun 19, 2002)

While I agree that 3D is target shooting I think a round scored with
Inner Zone: 10 points
Next Zone: 8 points
rest of body: -5 points
Miss: 0 points

Could be a fun tough round for club shoots as a change of pace.


----------



## x-cutter (May 20, 2003)

The same reason I dont shoot animals without rangefinding them first if at all possible. If I cant stand at a stake for 5 minutes and judge the distance dead nuts, what makes you think you can do it in a split second in the field.
3-d is nothing like hunting or archery.


----------



## Mag-Tek (Jan 22, 2005)

Its about score. If you take away points for a bad hit you may drop in the standings.

Now if you score the 12 ring as 1 point, the 10 ring as 0 points and the 8 ring at -1 and all other shots at - 2 points we can look at scores like golf. Everyone knows golf scores. But archery scores mean nothing to most people.

3-D scores are hard to understand for most non-archers. lets change that.


----------



## reylamb (Feb 5, 2003)

Mag-Tek,

You want to change 3D to known yardage. Now you want to change the scoring system. Anything else you want us to change for you? Ask any 3der at an ASA how they shot and they will tell you 3 down, or 4 up, or 22 up, or whatever. How hard is that to figure out anyway? Golfers know golf scores, but do non-golfers? Does -12 mean anything to someone that does not play the game? Most archers can understand the 3D scoring pretty simply. Do you even shoot 3D? I have searched ASA and IBO and I can't find your name anywhere.

Meyerske, how are 3d and huting remotely the same?


----------



## CEB (Jul 29, 2002)

I think the benefit of just shooting a 3-D outways whether or not to reward the archer with a positive or negative points system for a wound shot.

I think that 3-D gives guys a chance to shoot those kinds of bad shots as a kind of practice for hunting and hopefully they learn what they did wrong. I see alot of guys that start shooting a few 3-D's before hunting season opens and if it were not for 3-D they probably wouldn't get their bows out to shoot until a few days before season. So I would say for some people just shooting 3-D greatly benefits them before hitting the woods.

Being setup in a hunting situation also will allow the hunter to range known objects, or in a worst case step them off, in any direction to better prepare.

Many shots in 3-D are poor shot situations whether it be distances, angles or obstructions. If a person decides to take a poor shot on a live animal then that was their choice, but don't blame the game for it.

I think 3-D can aid shooters in their shot accuracy and confidence by shooting at unknown distances and by preparing them to pick out a spot on the target and trying to hit it on different terrain, uphill-downhill and varying target sizes.

With all that said 3-D is a game, a competition to me that is in no way similar to hunting. But it does aid my shooting abillity and confidence in a hunting situation.

Ceb


----------



## x-cutter (May 20, 2003)

I would tend to disagree a bit. Although 3-d does offer practice to hunters in a lot of senses, it does very little to teach hunters and shooters what they did wrong or right. If you shoot one arrow at unknown distance with no aiming point there are a variaety of things that could have gone wrong, and quite popssiblly a wrong can result in a right and nothing is learned. Example: If a shooter miscalculated the angle of the shot and misjudged the distance the arrow could still hit the bull with nothing learned. Field type archery teaches alot to an archer as the distance is known and you have follow up shots to determine what you did wrong. As a hunter I have taken many of the skills learned in field archery into the field and it resulted in me making clean shots with a very difficult shot. 3-d is still a competitive sport and quite a bit different than hunting. If you are a hunter wanting to learn archery skills then the field course is where you will learn the most.


----------



## meyerske (Dec 26, 2004)

x-cutter said:


> I would tend to disagree a bit. Although 3-d does offer practice to hunters in a lot of senses, it does very little to teach hunters and shooters what they did wrong or right. If you shoot one arrow at unknown distance with no aiming point there are a variaety of things that could have gone wrong, and quite popssiblly a wrong can result in a right and nothing is learned. Example: If a shooter miscalculated the angle of the shot and misjudged the distance the arrow could still hit the bull with nothing learned. Field type archery teaches alot to an archer as the distance is known and you have follow up shots to determine what you did wrong. As a hunter I have taken many of the skills learned in field archery into the field and it resulted in me making clean shots with a very difficult shot. 3-d is still a competitive sport and quite a bit different than hunting. If you are a hunter wanting to learn archery skills then the field course is where you will learn the most.


x-cutter - Point well made.


----------



## CEB (Jul 29, 2002)

x-cutter

I agree with the fact that field archery would tend to lend itself to be more of a learning experience. But in this area, in my opinion, the ocassional hunter/3-D shooter probably would not attend a field type event. When you explain a field shoot format and distances the first thing they don't like is the 60-80 yds shots. I just think that getting them out to shoot the bow before season, no matter what the format, has to help more than hurt their chances at taking an animal with a clean shot.

Ceb


----------



## Stroud Creek (Jan 13, 2004)

meyerske some guys do shoot 3-D just to help out there hunting but for the most of us, like I said 3-D has nothing to do with hunting AT ALL. X-CUTTER I would also like to see a ranger finder class, but not for the Pro's, 3-D is what 3-D is and all you do is get on here and [email protected]$ about how you can't shoot with the top pros because you can't judge the yds. Judging yds is just part of the 3-D game, it takes more than just making 20 good shoots to be at the top of this game, and if you dislike it so much FREAKING QUIT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


----------



## olehemlock (Dec 10, 2004)

meyerske said:


> I could go out and shoot a 30 target course and make a gut shot on every target and score a 150...just doesn't seem right.


Maybe they should quit scoring rounds in boxing, just fight to the death  After all you could be awarwded 9 rounds out of 10 just to get nocked out in the 10th.


----------



## x-cutter (May 20, 2003)

*Settle Down Shroud Creek*

You see, you cant teach anyone who has a closed mind anything. An open debate on archery and you get &@#$ who cant open their minds for a second. And by the way, Shroud, my posts come from 24yrs of shooting EVERY venue in arcehry. Most people with your opinion have not spread their wings outside of 3-d and therefore have no basis for comparison. They dont see the segmentation of archers into little factions that just make us and our sport weaker by the day. 

And by the way, I haven't met an archer yet that doesn't like to flip arrows at 80 yds. You need to get out of the treestsand and spread your wings. You might be surprised at what you can learn.


----------



## willyqbc (Sep 15, 2003)

in my humble opinion.....that system of scoring would do nothing to help build and promote our sport. All it would do is increase the gap between the have and have nots so to speak. Think of a beginning archer.....with those 30 gut shots he/she is only 150 points back of a clean round....use your system and the newbie is now 450 points from a clean round. That can seem pretty insurmountable to someone just starting out and may cause many to give up after a while. If you want to grow the sport you have to have new people walk away from a shoot feeling good about how they shot and wanting to come back.....that ain't gonna happen if they are hundreds of points behind even the middle of the pack. 

JMO
Chris


----------



## kidnutso (Aug 29, 2004)

Maybe we should start deducting points from bowling scores for pins left standing too? :mg: 

Just my .02 worth. I like the scoring system for 3D the way it is. You start deducting points for a body (no vital) hit, then a lot of people who enjoy shooting 3D would end up with negative finals. I think that would be very discouraging. Personally, I don't feel rewarded because I get a poor shot and score a 5. I want to kick myself every time I do it. And what's to say an 8 ring score shouldn't be deducted. Most of the 8 rings on the 3D targets are certainly not where you'd want to shoot an animal for a clean kill.

Like a lot of posters here have pointed out, 3D is not designed to teach or train anyone for hunting. 3D is a form of competitive TARGET archery. It just happens to include range estimation and targets that are a reasonable facsimile of animals. Most people bowhunt from treestands or ground blinds. How many 3D ranges are laid out that way? There may be a few platform shots...but it's not a true hunting type situation. 

To say that 3D should not be confused with Target Archery. That's absurd. It is very much target archery. Many of the great 3D shooters mentioned have won at the indoor fixed ranges tournaments. Jeff Hopkins, Nathan Brooks...to mention a couple. There are many different kinds of target archery. 3D is one of them. It just has the added challenge of judging yardage. You might be the best yardage guesser in the world. But if you can't shoot, you're not going to do well at 3D. Likewise, you might be the best shooter in the world. But if you can't judge yardage, you might as well hang up the 3D setup.

There is no shame in exceling at spots but not in 3D. There is not shame in exceling at 3D but not in spots. There's no shame in exceling at field archery and not in the others. It's all archery. Let's just support each other in whatever form of archery we pursue, instead of trying to run down 3D, spots, field one or the other types because perhaps we don't necessarily like shooting that form of archery.

Actually maybe this was more like 2$ worth, but I get long winded when I start. :wink:


----------



## Scottie (Oct 29, 2004)

meyerske said:


> I've never been able to figure out why we award ourselves five points for hitting a 3D animal in the hindquarter, leg, neck, gut, etc. This sends a bad message: "Oh, man, I'm glad that I hit the leg".
> 
> Seems to me we should be deducting points for hits out of the 8 zone.



"Because beggers can't be chosey!"


----------



## N BROOKS (May 7, 2004)

Back to rewarding ourselves with points for making a bad shot. I personally have made good shots and bad shots on animals and still found them at the end of the blood trail. If this is about hunting and we only get to keep the animals we make good shots on, then probably 50% of the animals taken every year should not have died. I agree in the aspect of it seems a little weird to get points for bad shots, but as I mentioned, I have found many gut shot animals dead. 

For that matter, my younger brother (who is now serving our country in Baghdad-Semper Fi) took his first four deer with shots no one would be proud of. But they sure did eat good!!!!! That scored points with me! :wink:


----------



## Bowzone_Mikey (Dec 11, 2003)

Wow ...

lemme ask you this ....

Howmany hunters here have shot a 3' wide Cobra???
or a 24" high standing bear???

I have quite a few times ......But only on a 3-D course

Now whomever said we should deduct points for a bad shot ...lemme ask you this 

you have a Mackenzie deer 33 yrds out 1/4 away .... if that target was live you sure as heck would not wanna put yer arrow where the 3-d target kill zone is ...... if you did that would be a "bad shot" as you would actually miss the vitals completly. Also truth be told 90% of the "vitals" on a 3-d target are in the wrong spot in comparision to there live counterparts, That statement is backed up by December 2004 issue of ... I cant recall the name at the moment buts its a mainstream mag ... I think it was Bowhunter....maybe Petersons ...I dunno ..... when I get home and go fer a seat in my library I will find out fer sure. Back to my original question ..... If I was at a fun shoot right before hunting season with my hunting rig I would Pound that deer pretty much at the end of where the rib cage would be ....if it were a live target it would exit the animal out the opposite shoulder ...... in a real live setting ...that shot would make a real short blood trail ...in a 3-D setting that would land me a nickle.... Is it a bad shot or a good shot?????


----------



## Tenspot (Mar 23, 2004)

INteresting topic and surprising responses in my book.

To say that 3d in "NO WAY" simulates hunting except for the shape of the animal is a very strong statement. You have to have a well tuned bow right? Know your equipment? Know your yardage? Shoot in the elements? Shoot uphill / downhill? Pick a spot? Contend with terrain? Contend with brush?

Hunting and 3D can draw many similarities as well as differences, it is what you make of it. That quartering away foam requires a much different POA than a quartering deer. Deer don't don't let dicker the yardage in yer head for 2 minutes. Deer don't let ya let down if things don't feel quite right. Many other things as well, but again I say, it is what you make it.

I have no major beefs with 12/10/8/5 scoring, in a competive 3D format, I want every point available to me - bad shot or not. However, some of the most fun 3D shoots I have attended involved different scoring. Alma, WI introduced me to 20/15/5 scoring years ago - yeah you still get your 5 points for a body but........ Chilakoot bowhunters introduced me to Fred Bear scoring years ago - very fun shooting - Blue stake - lung and better is 12 pts, red stake - lung and better is 10, Green stake, lung and better is 8, yellow - lung and better is 5. Blue stakes are 40yds or over on all animals. Hit the vital from the stake of your choice each target and reap the reward, miss score 0, body shot = a corresponding -score to the stake you chose. Wanna back up your smack talk - then hit the rubber squeek mouse cat toy from the blue at 42yds.

Its all good anyway......


----------



## Techy (Nov 8, 2004)

dbowers said:


> I coulda sworn 3D was a sport....
> 
> With a scoring system? So if your shooting field or dots and dont get the X its a bad shot and shouldn't be scored


Ditto :smile:


----------



## sagecreek (Jul 15, 2003)

hunter111 said:


> 3D is not hunting...
> It is just another venue in archery that uses a scoring system.
> 
> If I thought of it as only hunting then I would have to pass ALL shots over 20yds and I also would not be able to count points hitting 12's when the target is angled as the true heart shot is not in the circle.
> ...


----------



## Nick1959 (Apr 30, 2003)

*How about this!*

Those of you that don't like the '5' point reward for a poor hit ... take a '0' instead.    

Nick


----------



## dgirt (Jul 1, 2003)

Been shootin foam for abot 20-25 years give or take. Heres my take of 3-D. If you hunt you need to shoot. If you shoot 3-D at least your mind can see whats before it. Standing in one spot is nice if you shoot 300 rounds but will not help in yardage judging. 
Any time behind the bow is more important than whinning out the score. If you shoot a 5 then try not to make the same mistake twice. There are no 5 's on a real deer, but at least on foam you can see where you failed and try to correct it.
Scoring is good.
But if your score do'es not go up then you are not making the best shot possible that you can make.

Owning a bow do'es not make you a good shooter, shooting it in different formats make you a good shooter.

The saddest archer is the one that thinks good is good enough.


----------



## KIT-HAN-NE Flinger (Jan 5, 2005)

*open mind?*



x-cutter said:


> You see, you cant teach anyone who has a closed mind anything. An open debate on archery and you get &@#$ who cant open their minds for a second. And by the way, Shroud, my posts come from 24yrs of shooting EVERY venue in arcehry. Most people with your opinion have not spread their wings outside of 3-d and therefore have no basis for comparison. They dont see the segmentation of archers into little factions that just make us and our sport weaker by the day.
> 
> And by the way, I haven't met an archer yet that doesn't like to flip arrows at 80 yds. You need to get out of the treestsand and spread your wings. You might be surprised at what you can learn.


Open mind HMMMMMM Try it with 3d you might be suprised what you can learn :wink:


----------



## Cool Arrow (Jul 13, 2005)

Only been to one 3-d shoot and that was just a month ago, but just imagine going to your first shoot with a bunch of strangers, for me I was beyond nervous, I quickly learned about shame when I missed my third target, embarassed does'nt begin to explain what I was feeling, eventually I recovered but still had a few bad shots, luckily I was grouped with easy going and patient people. I don't know how much fun it would be deducting points, while the guy next to you, pats you on the back and says " relax and have a good time". Maybe your idea would be great for more advanced classses, but for us rookies, I can only see it being frustrating and and humiliating. I only missed 1 target completely and was still so disgusted with my score I did not post it.


----------



## x-cutter (May 20, 2003)

Jo, I am learning and will make the sacrifices to get better at 3-d and I'm no slouch now but, if I won every 3-d next year I would still think the same way. It should be marked to level the playing field and attract all archers. Not just the ones that live in the SE. Not just the ones that have a crange of targets and 10 acres to practice on. You mark it and you will see guys come to play that live in Alaska, CA, and all over the US where they wouldn't even consider it before because they knew before they started they didn't have a chance as long as they didn't have the time and practice facilities and they had to guess the distance. It's kind of like giving a guy 10 minutes to get sight marks before a field tournament and everyone else has perfect marks with Archers Advantage and saying they are all even and the guys with the perfect sight marks are better archers. Opportunity should be made available to all that choose to pursue it.


----------



## Matty-NJ (Dec 5, 2003)

Marcus said:


> While I agree that 3D is target shooting I think a round scored with
> Inner Zone: 10 points
> Next Zone: 8 points
> rest of body: -5 points
> ...



A group of bowhunters and myself on another forum (state specific) just started doing it like this at a couple of shoots! Excellent way to score....lots of fun. The shoots consist of much closer shots, tighter shooting lanes, and lots of angles. We really think it simulates hunting pretty well.

We are trying to figure out how to make it even more like bowhunting by factoring in angled shots though. Any quartering away shots we take are too far forward when aiming for the rings. And on some of the more angled shots you are getting 8's or -5's when aiming for the off shoulder.

Any ideas on how to score it more reallistically for angled shots?

Perhaps if viewed from the top, we could imagine where the arrow would intersect the rings if extended to the center of the target. Or just have the group vote on angled shots...I dont know...its tough to decide a better way, because it has to be consistent for scoring purposes.

If any of you guys put on shoots, or have the opportunity to change the rules of one....I highly recommend trying a "bowhunter scoring" shoot once or twice before the season. Lots of guys really like it, it gets you in the mood of hunting. Just as long as it retains the relaxed atmosphere, people will have lots of fun! It may introduce even more people into the already popular sport of 3D too. Who knows? :thumbs_up 

Have a good one---Matt


----------



## Mexican 3D (Nov 16, 2003)

Matty-NJ said:


> We are trying to figure out how to make it even more like bowhunting by factoring in angled shots though. Any quartering away shots we take are too far forward when aiming for the rings. And on some of the more angled shots you are getting 8's or -5's when aiming for the off shoulder.
> 
> Any ideas on how to score it more reallistically for angled shots?
> 
> Perhaps if viewed from the top, we could imagine where the arrow would intersect the rings if extended to the center of the target. Or just have the group vote on angled shots...I dont know...its tough to decide a better way, because it has to be consistent for scoring purposes.



maybe this could help you...

http://www.mckenziesp.com/target_st...8A1}&mscssid=2C25N61ET32S8MF31DL3PM7S2ULTD4H8


----------



## buyou boy (Jun 21, 2005)

*Meyerske Is Right.*

Meyerske i would like to invite you to look at our website. www.the3d.org 
I feel you will find what you are looking for in 3-d.


----------



## B-N-B (Jan 5, 2005)

As of now I am utterly speachless! I do in some extremely small way see how 3d is not related to hunting, but if you look back to when the "sport" was first introduced AND why, you might find that it was to increase your accuracy in the field for HUNTING. In my opinion, some of our archery organizations have made this into something that is the exact opposite of where it started. We have to look at this from another perspective. What about the guy that one day desides to start archery hunting to spend more time in the woods? he doesn't know squatt!! He doesn't own a $250 pair of rangfinders. In fact, he bought ALL of his equipment at Wal-Mart simply because he didn't know better. A friend introduces him to 3d to help whone his shooting skills. He ventures out onto some of the local IBO/ASA range set-ups and scoring and what does he find? The exact same thing that he was doing in his backyard with his target! What does he think??? How much fun is he going to have? Will he find it a challenge, or a waste of time? You all here at AT be the judge. Most of you have already stated your opinions. I just ask that you all stop and think about the new guy......


----------



## x-cutter (May 20, 2003)

First of all the guy that bought all of his equipment at Wal-Mart is going to find most archery a challenge. Bowhunting skills are archery skills. If you are proficient at archery you are going to be miles ahead of jo blo bowhunter in terms of accuracy and knowledge and therefore a better bowhunter.

The hardest thing there is, is to have a non-competitive person try to understand on that is. I know this as I have had several archery widows over the years that just couldn't understand the drive. Archery can be competitive and appeal to that side and it can also sharpen hunting skills. I will be the first to say that the field course will teach you more bowhunting skills than a 3-d course ever will. You have to shoot 4 arrows so you learn why you did something wrong and how to correct it. That is learning. You may like it for sharpening your hunting skills the next guy may do it because he just loves competition. The worst thing we can do is not include everyone that wants to shoot a bow or just wants to hunt. Either way it makes our voice stronger.


----------



## meyerske (Dec 26, 2004)

Ughhh!

What have I started? This thread seems to have a life of its own and has the most hits in the 3D forum...

Some of you agree with me on this topic and some of you don't (sometimes a little violently - R E L A X - we're all friends here).

The whole point was to make people think a little bit and that has sure been accomplished. :beer:


----------



## justwaystyntyme (Aug 30, 2005)

actually your not awarded 5 points for a bad shot you LOSE 5 points meaning 5 points are deducted from your score. :cocktail:


----------

