# What can we do???



## tsilvers (Nov 16, 2002)

Ok.. Law junkies...

Why can't the big oil companies be stopped???? Why can't we bring action in form(s) of class action suits against them... Is this not price gouging???? Are there actions not criminal in some regard??? Help me understand????   What drives the cost... Who's to blame??? Is it simply the oil producers or other hidden players (ie oil hedgers)... When do we stand up and fight????? Anybody else wonder???  

Tim


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## PMantle (Feb 15, 2004)

tsilvers said:


> Ok.. Law junkies...
> 
> Why can't the big oil companies be stopped???? Why can't we bring action in form(s) of class action suits against them... Is this not price gouging???? Are there actions not criminal in some regard??? Help me understand????   What drives the cost... Who's to blame??? Is it simply the oil producers or other hidden players (ie oil hedgers)... When do we stand up and fight????? Anybody else wonder???
> 
> Tim


First a question. Why did you use "big" in front of oil? Are smaller oil companies charging less or something?

You can sue all you want, but the last time I checked, there was no cause of action against businesses for making a profit. You might do better against drug companies than against oil in that effort.

The answers are out there. If I have time later, I'll fill you in.


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## tsilvers (Nov 16, 2002)

PMantle said:


> First a question. Why did you use "big" in front of oil? Are smaller oil companies charging less or something?
> 
> You can sue all you want, but the last time I checked, there was no cause of action against businesses for making a profit. You might do better against drug companies than against oil in that effort.
> 
> The answers are out there. If I have time later, I'll fill you in.



Please do... I use big because the BIG producers control the market prices... The little guys go along for the ride or oil contracts are generally bought out by the big guys or independent oil hedgers when there product is less only to be turned for a profit... Again.. What can we do... Will or can our government get or be more involved?? Can we impose tariffs or draft legislation which penalizes imported commodities if they were to be or are sold on the markets for rediculous gains... Is it really a supply and demand issue??? Don't think so.. More like projected cost and future prices driven by ?????? (what ever trhey want to tell you).... Can we not enforce or at the least influence the supply vs. demand costs... Please help me understand why we have no control and no option for control or influence in this... I fully understand these are companies in it to makes profits.. But as paying customers have we no voice???? Are you suggesting all can do is sit idley by and watch oil reach 100$ a barrel because they can.. This is nothing more than pure unfiltered greed on the part of major oil producing companies that have us all believing we are digesting more crude oil than they can produce or reasonably sustain... Meanwhile CEO's and those clowns running the show have continually recorded record profits in the billions...BS... Profits could be reinvested and production could be elevated... Yet there is no effort on there part to do so... I sure it's much more complex but the why do we sit back and over look the obvious.. Can we not investigate there business practices and find fault??? Is there abosolutley nothing criminal about what they are doing.... Is there justification for high prices accurate... To some degree i'm sure but to the full extent, no... Don't know about the rest of you but it botheres me to no end to watch the slow abomination of the middle class America... The rich will get richer and the poor will get poorer...

Tim


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## PMantle (Feb 15, 2004)

tsilvers said:


> Please do... I use big because the BIG producers control the market prices... The little guys go along for the ride or oil contracts are generally bought out by the big guys or independent oil hedgers when there product is less only to be turned for a profit... Again.. What can we do... Will or can our government get or be more involved?? Can we impose tariffs or draft legislation which penalizes imported commodities if they were to be or are sold on the markets for rediculous gains... Is it really a supply and demand issue??? Don't think so.. More like projected cost and future prices driven by ?????? (what ever trhey want to tell you).... Can we not enforce or at the least influence the supply vs. demand costs... Please help me understand why we have no control and no option for control or influence in this... I fully understand these are companies in it to makes profits.. But as paying customers have we no voice???? Are you suggesting all can do is sit idley by and watch oil reach 100$ a barrel because they can.. This is nothing more than pure unfiltered greed on the part of major oil producing companies that have us all believing we are digesting more crude oil than they can produce or reasonably sustain... Meanwhile CEO's and those clowns running the show have continually recorded record profits in the billions...BS... Profits could be reinvested and production could be elevated... Yet there is no effort on there part to do so... I sure it's much more complex but the why do we sit back and over look the obvious.. Can we not investigate there business practices and find fault??? Is there abosolutley nothing criminal about what they are doing.... Is there justification for high prices accurate... To some degree i'm sure but to the full extent, no... Don't know about the rest of you but it botheres me to no end to watch the slow abomination of the middle class America... The rich will get richer and the poor will get poorer...
> 
> Tim


Hard for me to respond because I just don't and can't think this way. People are still buying gas for leisure sports.


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## tsilvers (Nov 16, 2002)

PMantle said:


> Hard for me to respond because I just don't and can't think this way. People are still buying gas for leisure sports.



Just curious (for argument sake)... What would it take to change your mind or perspective... Not sure how things (ecomically speaking) are around you but the leisure sports and activities are becoming less and less here... Will it take 5-6$ a gallon fuel prices or a complete extinction of leisure commodity use before you find or deem it neccessary to make noise.... The average guy/gal simply can not afford the extra $$$ neccessary to support leisure hobbies and sports... I have personal friends who no longer use there boats... take there familys camping, take weekend trips to hunting cabins etc etc... Others who have been trying to unload bigger SUV's and trucks to no avail all in lue of extremely inflated crude oil prices... They simply can not afford to enjoy or use them anymore... Is it there fault(s)... I say not... The strangle hold imposed on us and our economy by these companies will ultimately effect each and everyone of us a some point if it hasn't already... Maybe it was or is our own undoing in having become such an oil dependent country but we should also reserve the right(s) neccessary to have some method(s) or avenues to correct it.. .. Particulalry when considering that the majority of the product comes form outside our own country... E85 and fuel cell technology is looming but a ways off... But it may be a little to late for some of us if things don't change... How does it feel knowing our livelihoods for the most part are ultimately controlled by a relative few oil companies.. 

Tim


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## PMantle (Feb 15, 2004)

Demand for oil is constantly increasing and supply decreasing.


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## Free Range (Apr 18, 2005)

Tim I feel your pain, we now have to think ahead, and “save up” when we want to do something like camping, or go home for the holidays. But I believe the sad fact is nothing will be done until it does affect the majority of folks out there. People that can afford it don’t stop to think what it is doing to those that can’t. And that is why none of the so called boycotts you see on the internet work. Not enough people care enough to make it work. When it starts hurting the common guy, and when it starts hurting the economy, then we will see some real change. Until then I guess the best we can do is back the politicians that might help, tighten the belt a little more and do what you can to not let it pull you under.


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## PMantle (Feb 15, 2004)

The only legislative change I can think of would involve making it easier/cheaper to build more refineries. Anything more than that, and we start becoming more like a socialist country.


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## buckmark23 (Jul 1, 2006)

Why not offer huge tax incentives to vehicle manufacturers that over the next five years offer reliable forms of hybrids type vehicles? Maybe the oil companies are sleeping with the car companies?


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## 460461whatever (Jan 22, 2005)

*China?*



buckmark23 said:


> Why not offer huge tax incentives to vehicle manufacturers that over the next five years offer reliable forms of hybrids type vehicles? Maybe the oil companies are sleeping with the car companies?


BM23, the hybrids are fairly reliable (by the reports that I've seen), but the last report on hybrids compared the gross costs over the entire life of a hybrid with the same for a H3. I'm sure that the cost per mile had to be estimates, but the difference still got my attention. The H3 was figured to be just over $1 per mile and the average electric/gas hybrid was well over $3.
I'm sure that the cost for the hybrids would naturally come down some if more were on the roads, but that would have to be a big drop!

The far east have become bidding competitors for the energy that we so much have loved to consume (I'm very guilty of this myself). I know that when I go to an auction that has some guns on it, I surely hope the collectors don't show up until the bidding is done. Well, there is another bidder in town. I know the company that I CURRENTLY work for is shifting more of our manufacturing over to China almost monthly. It takes energy to manufacture and transport those goods. China has a lot of oil (much of which is undeveloped) but there are many other countries in the far east that need middle east oil to feed their growing industries. I remember the failed campaign that most of us have ignored that told us to "Buy American". Now let's blame oil companies and our government. If we have to get gas, do we want give our money to British Petroleum and other foreign oil companies? Their gas isn't even cheaper or better.

Let's look at what we do before we blame someone else's greed. I too, want to live in a free country where I can market my ideas with little or no government interference.


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## BigDog2 (Dec 16, 2004)

*Conspiracy vs. simple math*

With all due respect, conspiracty theorists need to do their homework. Spouting off accusation as fact with absolutely no basis destroys ones credibility. In the time it takes to write a lengthy diatribe about "big oil" one can find out the supply and demand history for the US and the world. You can also find historical crude prices. Then with some simple correlation, one can see that prices rise when the demand/supply ratio approaches or surpasses 1.0. Pretty simple. Is there business influence...yes, there is some influence in the trading markets, but overall they are small and by default are self correcting in brief time periods. 

BTW,the US produces about 10 mln barrels of oil per day, but we use about 22 mln barrels of oil per day. The world produces roughly 77 mln barrels of oil per day. Thus, we consume over 1/4 of the worlds oil supply when we only make up 1/20 of the world's population. The US has no right to whine about oil prices. We are the biggest contributor the demand/supply issue.


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## PMantle (Feb 15, 2004)

Gas Prices Could Fall 'Closer to $2' 

By James R. Healey, USA TODAY 

(Aug. 29) - Gasoline prices are falling fast and could keep dropping for months. "The only place they have to go is down," says Fred Rozell, gasoline analyst at the Oil Price Information Service (OPIS). "We'll be closer to $2 than $3 come Thanksgiving." 

Travel organization AAA foresees prices 10 cents a gallon lower by the end of next week. It reported a nationwide average of $2.84 Tuesday, the lowest since April 20. 


It's good news for consumers and the economy. Continued lower prices "may act like a tax cut" and stimulate spending, says Richard DeKaser, chief economist at National City in Cleveland. He calculates that higher energy prices the first six months cut growth of consumer spending 1 percentage point. 

Travel organization AAA foresees prices 10 cents a gallon lower by the end of next week. It reported a nationwide average of $2.84 Tuesday, the lowest since April 20. 


The U.S. average for a gallon of regular peaked this year at $3.036 Aug. 10, according to OPIS/AAA daily surveys. That's slightly under the high of $3.057 Sept. 5, a week after Hurricane Katrina battered petroleum production in the Gulf of Mexico and caused fears of fuel shortages. 

OPIS' Rozell figures prices will jump again next spring. 

Behind the current drop: 

•The end of summer. Driving slows, reducing demand for gasoline. And federal requirements for clean air, summer-blend gasoline end next month, making gasoline cheaper to refine and import. 


•Sluggish demand. Gasoline use in the first eight months of the year is up 1% vs. a year ago, less than the 1.5% to 2% growth that's typical, says Michael Morris, analyst at the U.S. Energy Information Administration. "Wholesalers are trying to get rid of product. The growth in demand for gasoline has really tapered off," he says. 

Wholesale prices are falling faster than retail gasoline prices, meaning stations are making more money than when prices were $3. Wholesale prices Tuesday ranged from $1.77 to $1.79 a gallon, well below the $2-plus prices typical until recently. 

•Petroleum traders, worried that prices are too high to last, are selling their holdings. That pushes prices down. They also believe hurricanes won't disrupt Gulf of Mexico production, OPIS senior analyst Tom Kloza says. 

Crude oil, which accounts for roughly half the price of gasoline, ended New York trading Tuesday down 90 cents, at $69.71 a barrel. That's the first time it's closed at less than $70 since May 4.


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## Midlife Crisis (Mar 24, 2004)

PMantle said:


> The only legislative change I can think of would involve making it easier/cheaper to build more refineries. Anything more than that, and we start becoming more like a socialist country.


That would be a good start. Refining profit margins are good now after decades of delivering really poor financial returns. Guess what: if companies were not earning their cost of capital on the investments they made in refining capacity - they stopped building new ones. They eked out every bit of capacity they could from existing plants, tried to run them at 100% of capacity (which led to price competition - eg low gasoline prices). Now that demand has caught up with capacity and there are fewer opportunities to tweek plants to get more production out of them - and because it takes YEARS to get plans for a new plant approved and because no one wants a refinery in their backyard - we have a squeeze. So refining margins are up. All the economic growth in China and India has increased the world's demand for oil (along with our ever-increasing thirst for oil) - and with hedge funds (and other speculators) pushing prices around - well, prices are getting ugly. 

You can't conserve your way to lower oil prices - over the course of time demand will rise to meet supply (if oil prices are low) or supply will fall to meet demand (if financial returns to producers are too low) - that's just basic economics. The key will be to find alternative sources of energy that will help keep the price peaks in check.

Don't blame big oil. It's just economics. And yes, it can be painful.


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