# iron mace video



## ijimmy (Jul 2, 2002)

Kind of apples to oranges , when you consider that that the bemans had a larger broadhead attached. Try it with the same broadhead on both arrows for a fair comparison


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## Doc (Jun 10, 2003)

Thanks for the videos...love watching these types of things.:thumb:
I thought I saw 2 different broadheads:noidea:
Also what is the shaft diameter of the Speed Pro vs the Beman ICS?

I think they need to up the test medium strength if they want to do a true penetration test. My concern would be on a stronger medium, that the Speed Pro might not take the abuse and the shaft would splinter against the ferrule or insert....:noidea:


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## carteranderson (Jul 31, 2006)

*How 'bout mythbusters style*

make a form, and stick some elk or deer ribs in, with ballistic jel. Better yet, make it full body cavity size, ribs on both sides, and add hide to the outside. One of you geniuses out there with money and time should get on that. Today OK?

How's about someone donating a pig or something?? I'd like to see some shots at 40-50 yds with the above set up target for we westerners...I'm getting more convinced on the speed pro's, but before I drop $360 or so on a few dz, and the time to reset my toys, I'd like a little more effort than plywood shots. Like I said, I'm almost there-

Carter


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## Perfectionist (Mar 2, 2004)

Wow, you act like he was paid to do the test. Maybe someone else can donate some heavy arrows and broadheads for him to test with. :mg:


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## BrandXshooter77 (May 17, 2005)

I think the test is inconclusive for penetration purposes. The board moved with the second shot... maybe 2 targets... cool to watch though

It was at 40 yards that is awsome. But get some ballistics gel about 4 ft thick with a block behind it just in case and arrows with same fletch and broad head to see... even at the same penetration the HCA arrow gets it done faster, means less reaction time for the animal and thats a good thing.

I think diameter of shafts should not be considered due to hunting shaft vs hunting shaft... that is what is being compared, everyone knows smaller diameter gets better penetration thats why I use axis or HCA arrows.

I have had no issue with HCA going clean through the deer I have taken... and I got clean pass through with axis at 45yrds (same bow used with HCA arrows) and my arrow stuck in a tree behind the deer.


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## carteranderson (Jul 31, 2006)

Perfectionist said:


> Wow, you act like he was paid to do the test. Maybe someone else can donate some heavy arrows and broadheads for him to test with. :mg:


Nah, I understand. Hopeful that Richard will put 'em through a realistic situation when he reads up on our comments. I still think going to a slaughter house and shooting them through some pigs or calves would be awesome (ok you peta stalkers, I'm talking about carcasses, not live animals, so BACK OFF). That would be a awesome video to see! I have some contacts in the video and butcher world, so if somebody wants to pony up a few speedpros....:wink: 

BTW, good to hear that you have had SpeedPro pass throughs with deer at 45 yds. That does make me feel better. My concern is a front shoulder shot on a bull elk. Any one with exerience?
C.


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## MACHXKING (Jul 27, 2006)

very impessive on speed, but will any bow maker warranty 3.5gpi except HC


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## BrandXshooter77 (May 17, 2005)

MACHXKING said:


> very impessive on speed, but will any bow maker warranty 3.5gpi except HC


NOT YET... but myabe soon. Not everyone can handle speed, but as speed bows become more shootable for JOE BLOW as they are trending I think we will see Less than IBO weights warranties on bows.


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## MrSinister (Jan 23, 2003)

So that means the heavy arrow is getting 93lb of KE and the light arrow is getting 86lb of KE. 90fps faster but not as much KE. Not that either arrow is in any way lacking enough energy to go through the house and still take a deer but I am not sure if there is any advantage to most of us in the use of the lighter arrow. If we are shooting a Mace we could shoot 2315's with 150grain broadheads and have a single pin out to 40 yards:wink: . Getting the speed pro arrows to catch on in a big way is gonna take some doing. I don't even slightly doubt that a lot of bows today can more than hold up to shooting them but it is clear from the KE calculation that it was not able to soak up as much energy as the heavier arrow so that energy went back into the bow on that shot.


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## fastpassthrough (Jan 25, 2003)

carteranderson said:


> make a form, and stick some elk or deer ribs in, with ballistic jel. Better yet, make it full body cavity size, ribs on both sides, and add hide to the outside. One of you geniuses out there with money and time should get on that. Today OK?
> 
> How's about someone donating a pig or something?? I'd like to see some shots at 40-50 yds with the above set up target for we westerners...I'm getting more convinced on the speed pro's, but before I drop $360 or so on a few dz, and the time to reset my toys, I'd like a little more effort than plywood shots. Like I said, I'm almost there-
> 
> Carter


Carter oh trust me we have tried it all Spencer even bought a side of beef that we got to shoot at all day but no matter what you do there is always someone trying to look for something wrong as to why the results are the way they are. if we put the light weight broad head on the beeman then it would not weigh in at 450, 100 grain muzzy a pretty popular broad head for hunting would you not say?


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## Doc (Jun 10, 2003)

MrSinister said:


> So that means the heavy arrow is getting 93lb of KE and the light arrow is getting 86lb of KE. 90fps faster but not as much KE. Not that either arrow is in any way lacking enough energy to go through the house and still take a deer but I am not sure if there is any advantage to most of us in the use of the lighter arrow. If we are shooting a Mace we could shoot 2315's with 150grain broadheads and have a single pin out to 40 yards:wink: . Getting the speed pro arrows to catch on in a big way is gonna take some doing. I don't even slightly doubt that a lot of bows today can more than hold up to shooting them but it is clear from the KE calculation that it was not able to soak up as much energy as the heavier arrow so that energy went back into the bow on that shot.


Good points, but the question is how close is the KE at 40 yards because the heavier arrow will obviously lose more speed at that distance than the lighter arrow....I'll bet they are relatively close at 50+ yards


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## fastpassthrough (Jan 25, 2003)

Doc said:


> Good points, but the question is how close is the KE at 40 yards because the heavier arrow will obviously lose more speed at that distance than the lighter arrow....I'll bet they are relatively close at 50+ yards


I will be repeating the test soon at 100 yards and there is were you will see the light weight arrow shine! the 450 garin arrow dropped almost 30" inches at 40 yards from the speed pro arrow, whats it going to do at 100?


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## Doc (Jun 10, 2003)

fastpassthrough said:


> I will be repeating the test soon at 100 yards and there is were you will see the light weight arrow shine! the 450 garin arrow dropped almost 30" inches at 40 yards from the speed pro arrow, whats it going to do at 100?


Are you able to measure the speed of the arrows at these distances? You could possibly calculate them knowing all the variables involved. I would be very curious to know this as I think at great yardages the KE values will converge. This certainly would not help the person taking 20 yard shots in the whitetail woods, but might behoove the guy out west skewering speed goats at 60-70 yards. Have you run the numbers?


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## fastpassthrough (Jan 25, 2003)

Doc said:


> Are you able to measure the speed of the arrows at these distances? You could possibly calculate them knowing all the variables involved. I would be very curious to know this as I think at great yardages the KE values will converge. This certainly would not help the person taking 20 yard shots in the whitetail woods, but might behoove the guy out west skewering speed goats at 60-70 yards. Have you run the numbers?


when the wind lets up we will have some chrono numbers at 80 anyway


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## fastpassthrough (Jan 25, 2003)

*Results*

heres a little write up on bullet penetration
http://yarchive.net/gun/ammo/light_bullet_penetration.html


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## johnno (Apr 11, 2006)

Just my 2c worth...it seems to me that a heavy arrow soaks up more noise at the shot..so with these lighter arrows I assume the bow will be noisier. At the end of the day I will settle for a quiet bow.


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## Mahly (Dec 18, 2002)

Doc said:


> Good points, but the question is how close is the KE at 40 yards because the heavier arrow will obviously lose more speed at that distance than the lighter arrow....I'll bet they are relatively close at 50+ yards


 Actually, the heavier arrow will hold more of it's speed than the light one...but even then the light one will likely be going faster at 100 yards anyway...but with a good bit less KE


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## Jester (Jul 22, 2004)

If you calculate the Kinetic energy formula the beman ics 340 at 450gr shooting 304 has a kinetic energy of {92} The Speed Arrow at 393 at 250gr has a KE of {85.7} You do the math on which is going to penetrate deeper. Also your shooting a smaller cut broadhead with less cuttin surface on the speed pro arrow. Thats another factor to add to why your speed arrow looks like its penetrating more but set up with the same broadhead theres no way the speed arrow penetrates more. O yea Basic Arrow Rule for archery= shooting a min of 5 grains per draw pound. otherwise its basically dryfiring the bow. Shooting the speed pro If their shooting full 70 lb which i imagine there are comes out to 3.57gr per pound. Thats just flirtin with an blown up bow or carbon in the arm. I dont care how many layers of carbon or how much "supper duper stronger" haha" their carbon is compared to other brands lol


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## ccwilder3 (Sep 13, 2003)

Jester said:


> If you calculate the Kinetic energy formula the beman ics 340 at 450gr shooting 304 has a kinetic energy of {92} The Speed Arrow at 393 at 250gr has a KE of {85.7} You do the math on which is going to penetrate deeper. Also your shooting a smaller cut broadhead with less cuttin surface on the speed pro arrow. Thats another factor to add to why your speed arrow looks like its penetrating more but set up with the same broadhead theres no way the speed arrow penetrates more. O yea Basic Arrow Rule for archery= shooting a min of 5 grains per draw pound. otherwise its basically dryfiring the bow. Shooting the speed pro If their shooting full 70 lb which i imagine there are comes out to 3.57gr per pound. Thats just flirtin with an blown up bow or carbon in the arm. I dont care how many layers of carbon or how much "supper duper stronger" haha" their carbon is compared to other brands lol


HCA and Newberry warrant their bows to shoot 3.5 grs per pound.


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## grnxlt (Dec 19, 2006)

you need that speed for a bow that loud......


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## fastpassthrough (Jan 25, 2003)

grnxlt said:


> you need that speed for a bow that loud......


if you would of noticed every arrow shot was loud in the room you were hearing the arrow hit the bag target


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## fastpassthrough (Jan 25, 2003)

Mahly said:


> Actually, the heavier arrow will hold more of it's speed than the light one...but even then the light one will likely be going faster at 100 yards anyway...but with a good bit less KE


This is where everyone get confused yes the heavier arrow will retain more of its initial speed downrange but the lighter arrow is still going faster and still penetrate the same or more then the heavier arrow.


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## fastpassthrough (Jan 25, 2003)

ijimmy said:


> Kind of apples to oranges , when you consider that that the bemans had a larger broadhead attached. Try it with the same broadhead on both arrows for a fair comparison


No matter what you do it is always apples to oranges if I put the lighter broadhead on the other arrow it will be lighter that is not what the disbeliefs are everyone says a heavier arrow will out penetrate a lighter arrow, what I just showed you the 100 grain muzzy (which is what most use 100 grain) and a heavy arrow then the total speed pro system when used together will penetrate equal to or more then a heavier arrow but with much more speed for a flatter trajectory when hunting!


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## grnxlt (Dec 19, 2006)

fastpassthrough said:


> if you would of noticed every arrow shot was loud in the room you were hearing the arrow hit the bag target


i know......i'm refering to fast bows period.....26O - 27O is plenty. even ol' pete says in the video that shot placement is the most important.


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## Mrwintr (Jan 15, 2006)

fastpassthrough said:


> Carter oh trust me we have tried it all Spencer even bought a side of beef that we got to shoot at all day but no matter what you do there is always someone trying to look for something wrong as to why the results are the way they are. if we put the light weight broad head on the beeman then it would not weigh in at 450, 100 grain muzzy a pretty popular broad head for hunting would you not say?


They just won't cut ya a break will they FPT? So I see you mentioned "Spencer", is he still part owner of HCA or what? Someone on here once said you were the new owner of HCA, so can you set the record straight and tell us who owns what at HCA? 
I can't wait to try some of those Speed Pro arrows, I just can't afford them yet. Until then I will just keep reading your posts and reading all the bashing that you're getting.
Of course if you were to send me 2 or 3 of those 5.5's I could give another report based on what I do with them. I have a friend that will need to have some pigs killed later this year. How about a comparison on big pigs at say 40 yards.


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## fastpassthrough (Jan 25, 2003)

Mrwintr said:


> They just won't cut ya a break will they FPT? So I see you mentioned "Spencer", is he still part owner of HCA or what? Someone on here once said you were the new owner of HCA, so can you set the record straight and tell us who owns what at HCA?
> I can't wait to try some of those Speed Pro arrows, I just can't afford them yet. Until then I will just keep reading your posts and reading all the bashing that you're getting.
> Of course if you were to send me 2 or 3 of those 5.5's I could give another report based on what I do with them. I have a friend that will need to have some pigs killed later this year. How about a comparison on big pigs at say 40 yards.


ok drop me a pm on the arrows  back when the arrows first came out spencer gota side of beef to test with.I have become a owner of HCA with some investors.


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## the hacker (Jan 11, 2007)

i shot a 450lb boar at 30 yards with the speedpro arrow and a 75g muzzy with a hoyt trykon 28in/60lb broad side right behind the shoulder and the arrow went straight through it and stuck in a tree 20 yards away.my buddy that was with me shot a 400lb boar at 20 yards with a bowtech mighty mite 29in/70lb with a carbon express cx350 and a 125g muzzy and he had to shoot it 4 times and when the hog fell over it broke all 4 of his arrows in half they only went in half way.so guess what he has been shooting now with his bowtech???


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## fastpassthrough (Jan 25, 2003)

grnxlt said:


> i know......i'm refering to fast bows period.....26O - 27O is plenty. even ol' pete says in the video that shot placement is the most important.


ok I missed that about fast, bows pete also states how the speed helps in hunting situations.


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## carteranderson (Jul 31, 2006)

*Hey*

Mrwintr,

If you can get the job done with pigs/speed pros and regular shafts, I think I can get the video editing done as my son in a pro at it. Only problem is that his access to the software and hardware for editing will be gone in early June, so time is of the essessence if you need our help. I'm excited that someone is taking up the task of "gettin' er' done" !

carter


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## fastpassthrough (Jan 25, 2003)

carteranderson said:


> Mrwintr,
> 
> If you can get the job done with pigs/speed pros and regular shafts, I think I can get the video editing done as my son in a pro at it. Only problem is that his access to the software and hardware for editing will be gone in early June, so time is of the essessence if you need our help. I'm excited that someone is taking up the task of "gettin' er' done" !
> 
> carter


Carter what software does he use?


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## Tecumseh (Jan 14, 2007)

nice.


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## abowpro (Apr 24, 2003)

carteranderson said:


> Mrwintr,
> 
> If you can get the job done with pigs/speed pros and regular shafts, I think I can get the video editing done as my son in a pro at it. Only problem is that his access to the software and hardware for editing will be gone in early June, so time is of the essessence if you need our help. I'm excited that someone is taking up the task of "gettin' er' done" !
> 
> carter



Hey Carter,
I can do the editing for you if you can get me the footage.


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## carteranderson (Jul 31, 2006)

*Pig killin' speedpro blastin' video editin'*



fastpassthrough said:


> Carter what software does he use?


He uses Vegas-

Carter


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## Mrwintr (Jan 15, 2006)

carteranderson said:


> Mrwintr,
> 
> If you can get the job done with pigs/speed pros and regular shafts, I think I can get the video editing done as my son in a pro at it. Only problem is that his access to the software and hardware for editing will be gone in early June, so time is of the essessence if you need our help. I'm excited that someone is taking up the task of "gettin' er' done" !
> 
> carter


 I will, of course, have to see if my friend will let me kill them with the bow....I'm not sure if his wife will have a problem with that, but I will find something to kill if the pigs won't fly!


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## carteranderson (Jul 31, 2006)

*Hey, here's an idea...*

Shoot them after they are dead  ....

Not sure we want a vid circulating on the net that'll give the $(%!!peta!#$ nuts ammo against us....
Carter


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## MrSinister (Jan 23, 2003)

Don't we all expect these bows to have no problem passing through any game. If you use a speed pro arrow with the small diamiter head and the kind of energy it generates I don't really think anyone thinks it lacks penetration. All you have to look at is the KE figures on the setup to know it has plenty of energy.


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## Lawrence Archer (Feb 5, 2007)

WOW, that is not safe. 392 FPS with a 250 gr arrow at 70#. That's just asking for an accident.


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## mudslinger2 (Jun 25, 2006)

What makes you think that this is not safe. Just because it goes against the norms set many moons ago about what we were suppose to follow as far as weight of arrows versus # of pull does not make it "an accident waiting to happen". Things have changed and HCA gives warranties on these bows for this grain arrow. If you think they would give a lifetime warranty on their bows for shooting these light arrows and not know that the bows would hold up, then you are living in the dark ages. Just because your mathews won't warranty this light of an arrow out of their bow does not mean they are dangerous. I have seen many bows that shot arrows that were way lighter than 5GPP. When 3d shoots first started, there was an 80# weight limit and you could shoot any arrow as long as it had at least a 125 grain tip. I saw many bows being shot at 80# using 1913 aluminum with 125 NIBB points, way lighter than 5 GPP. This was way back in the late 80's and early 90's. Materials and bows have changed a lot since then.


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## BrandXshooter77 (May 17, 2005)

Lawrence Archer said:


> WOW, that is not safe. 392 FPS with a 250 gr arrow at 70#. That's just asking for an accident.


These bows AND arrows have been tested and improved from their initial release on the market. They are as safe as any other products on the market. Mudslinger2 has good points. Old timers and close minded people think that nothing can ever change and be safe or better. Accidents happen no mattrer what bow or arrow you shoot. I watched a Drennilin Snap a top limb on the draw. Bow was brand new, never left the shop. I was witness to this and yet I don't post up crap like "don't buy Mathews its not safe" so try to supress your ignorance if you have no first hand knowledge of a product being unsafe. Please educate yourself before you post.


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## carteranderson (Jul 31, 2006)

*Hmmm...*

Guess I was picturing 40-50 yd shots...If you get passthrough with regular and Speed pro's, does it really matter about KE theories/shaft diam/speed etc? I want outcomes, not high brow arguments...
Carter


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## BrandXshooter77 (May 17, 2005)

carteranderson said:


> Guess I was picturing 40-50 yd shots...If you get passthrough with regular and Speed pro's, does it really matter about KE theories/shaft diam/speed etc? I want outcomes, not high brow arguments...
> Carter



Good Call... Speed Pros do it faster... less drop... less reaction time for animals... Win/Win if you ask me.


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## carteranderson (Jul 31, 2006)

*Why do you want to be sedated?*



BrandXshooter77 said:


> Good Call... Speed Pros do it faster... less drop... less reaction time for animals... Win/Win if you ask me.


Better to get a teenage lobotomy than be a pinhead...
sorry, I just want to have something to do-

btw, you might be interested in Hot Hot Heat (check out my homepage: http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/member.php?u=50207)


carter
Also a graduate of Rock n Roll High School.

:darkbeer: 

(for all of you who don't get it, carry on)


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## Lawrence Archer (Feb 5, 2007)

mudslinger2 said:


> What makes you think that this is not safe. Just because it goes against the norms set many moons ago about what we were suppose to follow as far as weight of arrows versus # of pull does not make it "an accident waiting to happen". Things have changed and HCA gives warranties on these bows for this grain arrow. If you think they would give a lifetime warranty on their bows for shooting these light arrows and not know that the bows would hold up, then you are living in the dark ages. Just because your mathews won't warranty this light of an arrow out of their bow does not mean they are dangerous. I have seen many bows that shot arrows that were way lighter than 5GPP. When 3d shoots first started, there was an 80# weight limit and you could shoot any arrow as long as it had at least a 125 grain tip. I saw many bows being shot at 80# using 1913 aluminum with 125 NIBB points, way lighter than 5 GPP. This was way back in the late 80's and early 90's. Materials and bows have changed a lot since then.





BrandXshooter77 said:


> These bows AND arrows have been tested and improved from their initial release on the market. They are as safe as any other products on the market. Mudslinger2 has good points. Old timers and close minded people think that nothing can ever change and be safe or better. Accidents happen no mattrer what bow or arrow you shoot. I watched a Drennilin Snap a top limb on the draw. Bow was brand new, never left the shop. I was witness to this and yet I don't post up crap like "don't buy Mathews its not safe" so try to supress your ignorance if you have no first hand knowledge of a product being unsafe. Please educate yourself before you post.


I hope you're both happy for proving a fourteen year old who just started archery wrong. Congratulations.


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## mudslinger2 (Jun 25, 2006)

No one posted his or her age as being 14. I do apologize, but I was not trying to prove anyone wrong, just stating facts as I see them or just my opinion. I have seen fellow archers with arrows through fingers and such and I just don't think that a company would open itself up to lawsuits for proposing something that is dangerous.

I am truly glad that you are into the sport and hope that you will continue to love it as much as I do. You will learn new things all the time, even if you have been shooting for 30+ years like I have. The only way that you will learn more is to ask questions or state more of your opinions on things. Some will disagree, some will agree, but everyone has an opinion, right or wrong. You have to realize like it was stated above is that some people are not open to improvements and believe that thaings that have existed in archery for years should not be changed or cannot be improved upon. I reacted because HCA is a company that is bashed quiet often here and on other sights due to problems associated with them for the last few years, but with new ownership and new bows, HCA is makeing a comeback, but some still like to live in yesterdays world and bash still and don't believe that companies can or will change.

Again, I apologize, but I did not realize the comments were from someone 14 years old, and just starting.


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## Lawrence Archer (Feb 5, 2007)

Thank you. 
I was in no way trying to bash HCA's products or reputation by saying it was 'an accident waiting to happen'. All I know is that 5gpi is the 'safe' or recommended level for any bow from any company set by the IBO, and that using a lower weight arrow can result in problems or damages on any product. If a bow can stand up to a lower weight arrow, that's spectacular, but I do not believe for it to be completely safe on any bow.

I have not learned from experience, I have learned from set standards.
I do not wished to be tagged as 'ignorant', as BrandXshooter77 said. I may be uneducated in this matter due to lack of experience, but I am not ignorant.

I do accept your information as truthful, though, and that will add to my further education.


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## mudslinger2 (Jun 25, 2006)

LA, from your replies, I think you have a lot going for you especailly at age 14. Just remember, standards are made to be changed just like records are made to be broken and I think that HCA is trying to change the standards that have been set. I still believe that if this was very unsafe to shoot the light arrows thru HCA bows, they would not put a lifetime warranty on the bows and be pushing the speed pro arrows. If I was a new investor and owner such as Richard "fastpassthrough" of HCA, I would definitely be careful when trying to rebuild the comapny, which I think he is doing, even with the light arrow debate. He really couldn't afford any negative press or happening right now. Remember, don't stop asking questions or stating opinions, that is the only way to learn. Good luck.


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## Lawrence Archer (Feb 5, 2007)

I respect and understand your point. Thank you.


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## BrandXshooter77 (May 17, 2005)

Lawrence Archer said:


> Thank you.
> I was in no way trying to bash HCA's products or reputation by saying it was 'an accident waiting to happen'. All I know is that 5gpi is the 'safe' or recommended level for any bow from any company set by the IBO, and that using a lower weight arrow can result in problems or damages on any product. If a bow can stand up to a lower weight arrow, that's spectacular, but I do not believe for it to be completely safe on any bow.
> 
> I have not learned from experience, I have learned from set standards.
> ...



LA, If I came off harsh, it is because I meant to. I do, however, hope you continue to learn about Archery. It is wonderful sport and awsome tool for hunting. 

Webster calls ignorant as such "IGNORANT may imply a general condition or it may apply to lack of knowledge or awareness of a particular thing" Now that sounds a whole lot like what you just posted about yourself concerning this subject. Understand that "ignorance" is not a put down... it simply means that you do not have the knowlegde or awareness. It does NOT mean that you do not have the capacity to understand. I, in no way, use the word as derogatory comment concerning your character. People often use the word as such, but I used it appropriately.

Now as long as we are learning... Under 5 g/lb does not couse damage or problems if you have a high country archery bow. Any other and you may have problems. In fact, most other bows lose thier warranty for shooting under 5g/lb. High country... no danger, no damage.:wink: 

Also IBO is not the be all end all when it comes to archery. Just a general guideline... unless you happen to be shooting one of their tournaments 

Anyway, lets stirr the pot some more:darkbeer:


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## sagecreek (Jul 15, 2003)

Yep,

look at each bow manufacturers minimum arrow weight recommendations and do not go below that.

Some companies are 6 grains/lb

some 5 grains/lb

and some 3.5 grains/lb  

Each company builds different levels of equipment.


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## jwshooter11 (Aug 18, 2006)

5 gr/lb was instituted as an IBO rule during the '90s because everyone was trying to shoot the older equipment at 2-3 grs/lb to achieve high speeds. As a result, people were blowing up 3 or 4 bows at an IBO shoot in a weekend. The rule before that was any arrow with a 125 grn. point.


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## Perfectionist (Mar 2, 2004)

jwshooter11 said:


> 5 gr/lb was instituted as an IBO rule during the '90s because everyone was trying to shoot the older equipment at 2-3 grs/lb to achieve high speeds. As a result, people were blowing up 3 or 4 bows at an IBO shoot in a weekend. The rule before that was any arrow with a 125 grn. point.


You mean someone uses less than 125 grain point?!?!?  That's totally unsafe.    (just kidding) It's funny to see how we forget that technology progresses over time, but our rules and pre-conceived notions stay the same.


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## ccwilder3 (Sep 13, 2003)

It wasn't that long ago that 9 grs per lbs was the recomendation.

I can honestly say that I see just as many limb and string problems at shoots today, with speed and weight restrictions, as I did 15 years ago without restrictions.


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## mudslinger2 (Jun 25, 2006)

Like Perfectionist said above and I stated earlier. I have seen many bows in the late 80's and early 90's being shot at 80# with 1913 arrows with a 125 grain nibb, and most through an overdraw. Someone should figure the weight of a 1913, 3" feathers and 125 grain NIBB at 26" and see what those arrows weighed in at for 80#


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## elkreaper (Apr 2, 2006)

ijimmy said:


> Kind of apples to oranges , when you consider that that the bemans had a larger broadhead attached. Try it with the same broadhead on both arrows for a fair comparison


Not to mention that if you look close the heavier arrow out penetrated by about a half inch. If the heavier arrow was the same length (oscilation at impact factor) same diameter and used the same size broad heads you'd see the heavier arrow go in alot deeper than that light one. Another thing that DOES NOT add up is the kenetic values with the heavier arrow being 84# and the lighter one being 86#. Eather the bow was turned down inbetween shots or its a different bow. Tests with these arrows have showen the opposite about to to 3 #ke loss by shooting these arrows NOT GAIN! I call B.S.!


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## fastpassthrough (Jan 25, 2003)

elkreaper said:


> Not to mention that if you look close the heavier arrow out penetrated by about a half inch. If the heavier arrow was the same length (oscilation at impact factor) same diameter and used the same size broad heads you'd see the heavier arrow go in alot deeper than that light one. Another thing that DOES NOT add up is the kenetic values with the heavier arrow being 84# and the lighter one being 86#. Eather the bow was turned down inbetween shots or its a different bow. Tests with these arrows have showen the opposite about to to 3 #ke loss by shooting these arrows NOT GAIN! I call B.S.!


The heavier arrow did not out penetrate the lighter faster one and it did have more ke 93 verses 86 The arrow was that length to get the weight up to 450 we used the 100 grain because that are what most hunters use and chose muzzy,The bow was not turned down between shots for what? anyone can do these tests but everyone would rather just disagree rather then find out what is really going on if you have not tried it then you do not have a clue as to what would happen and what would not.I will be doing a 100 yard test with a light arrow and a heavy arrow again with a filed point same diameter same length just for you soon and se what other kind of excuses everyone comes up with of why the test is not true.
http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=4505175


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## asa3dpro (Dec 31, 2002)

*Something to consider?*

Suppose we go back in time when the AMO was the "thing" in bow testing and at that time we had the Speed Pro Max arrows then as opposed to the 2219 XX75. These "standards" along with the IBO was in effect long ago with the "bracket" bow and dacron strings. Now, the string,riser.limb,and cam design and material is far better than the even newer equiptment that prompted the IBO to set their standards. 
Richard you could do a slow motion test at the target in a indoor range with a Speed Pro Max and a 2219 and let these guys see where their "KE" is going.Even GT did a test to see where all the energy was going on a aluminum vs carbon.
BTW:Where did the term Kenetic Energy come from? I am betting/guaranteeing a rifle term relating to the energy in a soft nosed bullet. 
Insted of *****ing and condesending. Think about? If a heavy carbon arrow with a weaker spine that bends and oscilates at impact with wood,bone,flesh,etc will outpenetrate a arrow that is ultra light and stiffer and does not bend with impact, then you are crazy. 
I was a non believer until Spencer and Richard sent a few dozen of the Speed Pro Max arrows to our shop to try. These things was outpenetrating my GT 35/55's by 6-8 inches on a Block in our indoor range with a #58 Iron Mace. Even at home on my Morrell Outdoor Range they was shooting through it. I am trying to connect with a turkey,but if it does not work out I will be putting a few of these through some whitetails. Don't nock it until you try it.


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## Perfectionist (Mar 2, 2004)

asa3dpro said:


> Suppose we go back in time when the AMO was the "thing" in bow testing and at that time we had the Speed Pro Max arrows then as opposed to the 2219 XX75. These "standards" along with the IBO was in effect long ago with the "bracket" bow and dacron strings. Now, the string,riser.limb,and cam design and material is far better than the even newer equiptment that prompted the IBO to set their standards.
> Richard you could do a slow motion test at the target in a indoor range with a Speed Pro Max and a 2219 and let these guys see where their "KE" is going.Even GT did a test to see where all the energy was going on a aluminum vs carbon.
> BTW:Where did the term Kenetic Energy come from? I am betting/guaranteeing a rifle term relating to the energy in a soft nosed bullet.
> Insted of *****ing and condesending. Think about? If a heavy carbon arrow with a weaker spine that bends and oscilates at impact with wood,bone,flesh,etc will outpenetrate a arrow that is ultra light and stiffer and does not bend with impact, then you are crazy.
> I was a non believer until Spencer and Richard sent a few dozen of the Speed Pro Max arrows to our shop to try. These things was outpenetrating my GT 35/55's by 6-8 inches on a Block in our indoor range with a #58 Iron Mace. Even at home on my Morrell Outdoor Range they was shooting through it. I am trying to connect with a turkey,but if it does not work out I will be putting a few of these through some whitetails. Don't nock it until you try it.


Exactly... KE and Momentum is not the "end-all" argument. They are nice theoretical postulations. However, the real question is how well the arrow transfers all that energy into its target.

If anyone wants to see what happens to a heavy aluminum arrow (vs carbon) upon impact, just watch the Carbon Express videos:
http://www.carbonexpressarrows.com/media_slow_motion_movies.shtml

Here's a quote from that Carbon Express page. So if anyone is calling BS, then they need to discuss the issue with Carbon Express as well.


> Oscillation: All arrows oscillate coming out of the bow. The Carbon Express arrow recovers after a short distance, delivering all of its energy forward and straight into the target. The amount of energy loss is reduced. The Easton Aluminum arrow is still recovering when it hits the target as seen here with the "wet noodle" effect. Only a portion of the energy drives through as it is still oscillating. This slow recovery means wasted kinetic energy!


Ooops... forgot to mention, the "Carbon Express vs Easton Aluminum" video is at the bottom of the page.


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## asa3dpro (Dec 31, 2002)

*Amen Brother!*

Exactly what I wanted to say only shorter. I had only seen the easton and gold tip videos. Not being contridicting, but would'nt you want less energy transfered into the target to help it "slip through"? Like I said this is just for my information.


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## Perfectionist (Mar 2, 2004)

asa3dpro said:


> Not being contridicting, but would'nt you want less energy transfered into the target to help it "slip through"? Like I said this is just for my information.


As you are inferring, yes more KE will create more "wet noodling". However there are a lot of factors that must be taken into consideration, namely the ratio of KE vs spine. If you have more KE than what the spine can absorb, then you get the noodling. But if you have the same KE, but stiffer spine, then there will be less noodling. You must also consider wether the arrow is hitting the target straight, so that KE is aligned behind the point or broadhead. Of course, good fletches and arrow rotation can solve this problem.


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## sagecreek (Jul 15, 2003)

It's amazing how you could skew a pentetration test with poor tuning if you had a mind to. :wink:


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## Toad305 (May 12, 2006)

*hca*

I just think it is nice to see HCA coming back to the front of the pack. I can remember when NO-ONE could even touch a HCA, then something happen (bad). No eveyone is getting nervous, cause the HCA is headed back to the front. Keep up the good work!:wink:


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## Scottie/PA (Mar 22, 2006)

*Hca*



Toad305 said:


> I just think it is nice to see HCA coming back to the front of the pack. I can remember when NO-ONE could even touch a HCA, then something happen (bad). No eveyone is getting nervous, cause the HCA is headed back to the front. Keep up the good work!:wink:


HCA is back, I have to agree. I love speed. Keep up the good work. There are always whiners that don't like speed. I get the same thing when I ride my Suzuki Hayabusa on one wheel past them. Whine, Whine, Whine!


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## Mrwintr (Jan 15, 2006)

Hey, Elkreaper.... it seems like you have had a personal vendetta with FPT or High Country and their arrows for months, maybe longer. Most of the posts I have seen from you in all the HCA related threads have been negative. I am very curious why that is. I personally have liked my High Country bows and have been shooting them for well over 10 years, now HCA seems to be on the move to re-establishing their business and I would like to see them do so. Your negative posts are such a waste of space on here. IF YOU don't like their stuff go play with the stuff you do like and posts all you want about the items you use and think are the best, but the endless crapping on HCA posts certainly ain't doing anyone any good. Everyone who cares, by now, has seen that you don't like their light weight arrows....OK, we understand! You think they are all hype or they are dangerous, SO DON'T SHOOT THEM if your afraid of them.
Please tell us what arrow shaft you feel is the best and safest, I will find a few and try them out side by side with Speed Pro and if I get hurt, but can still sit upright and type, I will post my results when I am done. 
For me, even if the Speed Pro arrows only penetrated the same amount or a little less, the gained 30-50+ fps would be worth it.
NASCAR is inheretly dangerous, do you post on a forum somewhere telling the Nascar drivers not to get into their cars because they could get hurt driving those cars at the speeds they do??


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## ccwilder3 (Sep 13, 2003)

Mrwintr said:


> Hey, Elkreaper.... it seems like you have had a personal vendetta with FPT or High Country and their arrows for months, maybe longer. Most of the posts I have seen from you in all the HCA related threads have been negative. I am very curious why that is. I personally have liked my High Country bows and have been shooting them for well over 10 years, now HCA seems to be on the move to re-establishing their business and I would like to see them do so. Your negative posts are such a waste of space on here. IF YOU don't like their stuff go play with the stuff you do like and posts all you want about the items you use and think are the best, but the endless crapping on HCA posts certainly ain't doing anyone any good. Everyone who cares, by now, has seen that you don't like their light weight arrows....OK, we understand! You think they are all hype or they are dangerous, SO DON'T SHOOT THEM if your afraid of them.
> Please tell us what arrow shaft you feel is the best and safest, I will find a few and try them out side by side with Speed Pro and if I get hurt, but can still sit upright and type, I will post my results when I am done.
> For me, even if the Speed Pro arrows only penetrated the same amount or a little less, the gained 30-50+ fps would be worth it.
> NASCAR is inheretly dangerous, do you post on a forum somewhere telling the Nascar drivers not to get into their cars because they could get hurt driving those cars at the speeds they do??



Since Richard anounced what type of cams he would be using, elkreaper has been hitting just about every HCA thread with negative comments. I don't believe I ever saw a post by him on a HCA thread before that. 

He hates Elite just as bad for the same reason.


He got so bad for a while that I used the ignore feature.


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## Perfectionist (Mar 2, 2004)

sagecreek said:


> It's amazing how you could skew a pentetration test with poor tuning if you had a mind to. :wink:


Yes, you could definitely tamper with data this way. This is why it is best to do penetration tests at longer distances, where the arrows have more time to recover. I believe Richard was proposing to do penetration tests at 100 yards, which would alleviate the "ill effects" of improper tuning.


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## sagecreek (Jul 15, 2003)

Perfectionist said:


> Yes, you could definitely tamper with data this way. This is why it is best to do penetration tests at longer distances, where the arrows have more time to recover. I believe Richard was proposing to do penetration tests at 100 yards, which would alleviate the "ill effects" of improper tuning.



Not really,

you would still loose a lot of energy getting the arrow to straighten out before contact with the test medium. :wink: 

BTW, I'm not saying any company is doing this, either it be HCA or PSE.

I'm just saying you could do that if you wanted to have the numbers go your way.

Now, where are those black helicopters at again?  :spy:


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## Perfectionist (Mar 2, 2004)

Mrwintr said:


> Hey, Elkreaper.... it seems like you have had a personal vendetta with FPT or High Country and their arrows for months, maybe longer. Most of the posts I have seen from you in all the HCA related threads have been negative. I am very curious why that is. I personally have liked my High Country bows and have been shooting them for well over 10 years, now HCA seems to be on the move to re-establishing their business and I would like to see them do so. Your negative posts are such a waste of space on here. IF YOU don't like their stuff go play with the stuff you do like and posts all you want about the items you use and think are the best, but the endless crapping on HCA posts certainly ain't doing anyone any good. Everyone who cares, by now, has seen that you don't like their light weight arrows....OK, we understand! You think they are all hype or they are dangerous, SO DON'T SHOOT THEM if your afraid of them.
> Please tell us what arrow shaft you feel is the best and safest, I will find a few and try them out side by side with Speed Pro and if I get hurt, but can still sit upright and type, I will post my results when I am done.
> For me, even if the Speed Pro arrows only penetrated the same amount or a little less, the gained 30-50+ fps would be worth it.
> NASCAR is inheretly dangerous, do you post on a forum somewhere telling the Nascar drivers not to get into their cars because they could get hurt driving those cars at the speeds they do??


MrWinter, I am right there with you. This guy (Elkreaper) is so blinded by his own bias, that he fails to see logic. He incessantly whines about arrow weight, and offers no relavent factual data. He posted ballistic data about bullets, but does not realize that arrows do not melt and mushroom in flight. He only reads one or two sentences in a post, then rants and raves like a nagging teenager. In one post, I agreed with him on KE, and he still managed to tell me that I was wrong.   

I have stopped responding to his rudimentary logic flaws because of his infantile mental capacity. The "Ignore" button is too easy, so I actively ignore him, instead of letting the computer do it for me.


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## Perfectionist (Mar 2, 2004)

sagecreek said:


> Not really,
> 
> you would still loose a lot of energy getting the arrow to straighten out before contact with the test medium. :wink:
> 
> ...


You're right. Those dang helicopters keep popping up everywhere. Maybe my tin foil helmet can protect me.


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## fastpassthrough (Jan 25, 2003)

*good reading!*

http://yarchive.net/gun/ammo/light_bullet_penetration.html


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## sagecreek (Jul 15, 2003)

:bump2:


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## fastpassthrough (Jan 25, 2003)

*Iron Mace*



trimantrekokc said:


> there's an Iron mace video on you tube for those intersted
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FcEMLfTVIv0
> 
> ...


IRONMACE AD

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fyYFU-5jENU


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## sagecreek (Jul 15, 2003)

Richard,

I think that would make a great TV commercial! 

:thumb:


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## elkreaper (Apr 2, 2006)

Nomatter howmany time this pops up and I watch that video It still looks like the Longer(more oscilating) Lower spined, Bigger broadheaded, fatter shafted, heavier arrow still out penetrated the the lighter one.


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