# To Score or not to Score?



## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

EPLC, you know I shoot one arrow shots. Probably the best thing I ever went with... Score? Kind of hard not to score or at least see a resulting bad shot. Shooting one target and only that target you can figure out what works, stance, form, execution, rushing a shot. Even longer distances, 30 and 35 yards, I shoot one and maybe two arrows and pull. Only if picture taking I'll shoot more to show. Last one??? My TX4. 2nd day of shooting, all 6 arrows in the bull's eyes from 40 yards.

Yes, one arrow drills have their place.


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## EPLC (May 21, 2002)

For the first time I have something that translates to the real world. My focus is actually changing to the arrow at hand. I'm still working it but I can actually seeing progress...


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## ron w (Jan 5, 2013)

I guess I can't see why you say, you're " dumbing down" your practice....
abandoning the idea that you have to produce a score when practicing, is, in my opinion..."smartening up" your practice, because you change your focus from producing score, which really means nothing as far as "practice" is concerned, to focusing on what actually produces score,...the quality of your shot execution.


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## EPLC (May 21, 2002)

ron w said:


> I guess I can't see why you say, you're " dumbing down" your practice....
> abandoning the idea that you have to produce a score when practicing, is, in my opinion..."smartening up" your practice, because you change your focus from producing score, which really means nothing as far as "practice" is concerned, to focusing on what actually produces score,...the quality of your shot execution.


I agree, I guess "simplifying" would be a better term. Sometimes it just takes something very simple to produce very improved results. I've tried to "will" my thinking into a different line of thinking but just haven't been very successful. By using this drill I'm changing my focus by doing something that is easily carried over to competition. That said, I'm still working on it... but the transfer is working quite well.


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## JV NC (Dec 9, 2005)

I come from a golf background. 

That being said.....I don't see how people think they're supposed to shoot perfect archery rounds, if they've never done it. It doesn't make sense, to me. I always though I was practicing (the actual game) best, if I played the course at its toughest. The problem that created was.....I was never shooting lights-out scores. I'd shoot an "OK" round and finish up in my comfort zone (around par). I was stuck at scratch for over a year. If/when I did get under par, I wasn't comfortable there. Why should I be? I wasn't there very often.

A buddy of mine told me to start playing a few rounds from the ladies tees. So, I did. I shot (not surprisingly)...lights-out. Ever been 10 under? Me either (before then). But, the more I shot from the up tees (progressing to the senior and then reg. mens tees)....the more I got used to being under par. I changed my comfort zone to the point I was uncomfortable if I WASN'T under par.

I was a +3 in 6 mos.

If I'm going to score a round for practice, I'd consider making the practice session a positive scoring experience. Just my .02


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## ron w (Jan 5, 2013)

the simple fact is...... that what happens at the target is produced by what happens at the bow...... do what happens at the bow well, and what happens at the target will reflect that.


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## EPLC (May 21, 2002)

JV NC said:


> I come from a golf background.
> 
> That being said.....I don't see how people think they're supposed to shoot perfect archery rounds, if they've never done it. It doesn't make sense, to me. I always though I was practicing (the actual game) best, if I played the course at its toughest. The problem that created was.....I was never shooting lights-out scores. I'd shoot an "OK" round and finish up in my comfort zone (around par). I was stuck at scratch for over a year. If/when I did get under par, I wasn't comfortable there. Why should I be? I wasn't there very often.
> 
> ...


There is a lot of truth in what you have brought up. Many folks find short range training very helpful to build confidence. Unfortunately this hasn't worked out for me for whatever reason and believe me I've tried. I simply was not able to translate what I could do at short range to real world distances. The drill I'm currently doing is translating well as it's allowing me to focus on the now, and not projecting unrealistic outcomes.


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## Zixer (Dec 1, 2013)

For me its the end game that is important. Yes the final score in my 3D round or my spot round. If I am doing things better, better stance, better form, better grip, better sight picture, better release and better follow through, then the end result will be BETTER. If I falter in any of those, the score will not be better.

Its one thing for me to be more consistent through a 5 arrow sequence, than it is through 30 arrows. If I am more consistent through 30 arrows, then the chances of me executing my shot sequence correctly on the buck of a lifetime is more likely.

Just my opinion on things. Not saying anyone else is wrong in how they see things, this is just my take on it.


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

Zixer said:


> . If I am more consistent through 30 arrows, then the chances of me executing my shot sequence correctly on the buck of a lifetime is more likely.


Well, deer hunting isn't part of target shooting, but! Randy Ulmer once penned that first shot at a deer being the only one you would possibly get. So he set up a practice routine. Yep, walk out the door and shoot just one arrow, the arrow that would count. He'd place the bow aside and go about other things and a hour or so come back and take that one shot again. He didn't say how many times he did this, but pointedly said he had his first shot, the put down shot, well in hand. Come to think of it Randy was probably the reason I started the 1 shot drill. How many years ago, I don't know. I've just done it and never thought about it until Inter/Advan forum came about.

Of performing the one shot drill, I don't think it's for newbies or for everyone. One, I like newbies to like shooting and shooting is where it's at. After a time, pursuing archery to a higher level, yes, it could work for them.


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## ron w (Jan 5, 2013)

that method works fine for a deer hunter where "minute of vitals" is the goal..... target archery is a little different.


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## possum trapper (Nov 24, 2005)

ron w said:


> the simple fact is...... that what happens at the target is produced by what happens at the bow...... do what happens at the bow well, and what happens at the target will reflect that.


that's about as clear as it gets and truth it is.

some nights you shoot well and not score well.some nights you shoot bad and score bad.some nights your shoot ok and score good....only YOU can tell this.We are all judged by our score we have on paper but you need to base yourself on how you are executing shots.

executing shots is the only thing you can worry about.

BUT to get better at shooting scores in tourneys you need to have as many different dress rehearsals as you can get and by doing that if your shooting vegas round.shoot 2 practice ends and then start scoring.

for me my score reflects a lot of what im doing at full draw


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## EPLC (May 21, 2002)

Zixer said:


> For me its the end game that is important. Yes the final score in my 3D round or my spot round. If I am doing things better, better stance, better form, better grip, better sight picture, better release and better follow through, then the end result will be BETTER. If I falter in any of those, the score will not be better.
> 
> Its one thing for me to be more consistent through a 5 arrow sequence, than it is through 30 arrows. If I am more consistent through 30 arrows, then the chances of me executing my shot sequence correctly on the buck of a lifetime is more likely.
> 
> Just my opinion on things. Not saying anyone else is wrong in how they see things, this is just my take on it.


While it's possible I'm reading more into this then is there, this line of thinking is exactly what I'm trying to fix. But I'm talking about focus, you may mean something else. So, my question to you is: How's this working out for you?


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## erdman41 (May 6, 2009)

I score everything. So to me scoring isn't anything to be concerned about at a tournament because that is what I am always doing.


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## 60435 (Mar 20, 2012)

you guys make this harder than what it is if you want to shoot a perfect score you have to believe you will and you will , maybe not today but some day, try and shoot 60 to 100 arrows a day or at least 5 days a week and 3 days hard practice, no one way is better than the next the key is shooting time well spent,you will shoot real well for a time and you will think your getting somewhere then you will slide back shoot like crap the world is ending , then back and better than before. its natural progression but you have to look a year in the future for realistic goals, this is my 4th year shooting and the forth year of shooting at least 5 days a week iv gone from my first tournament of dead last to being able to beat most pros , shooting perfect scores will become a habit


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## EPLC (May 21, 2002)

erdman41 said:


> I score everything. So to me scoring isn't anything to be concerned about at a tournament because that is what I am always doing.


A lot of people do just that without any issues. I think once I get comfortable with my newly built process scoring will be possible but I'm not sure I'll go back to it. The only scoring I'm doing right now is in my league and local competitions and I seem to be able to keep my focus away from it as of late. I credit this to my new training drill. 



60435 said:


> you guys make this harder than what it is if you want to shoot a perfect score you have to believe you will and you will , maybe not today but some day, try and shoot 60 to 100 arrows a day or at least 5 days a week and 3 days hard practice, no one way is better than the next the key is shooting time well spent,you will shoot real well for a time and you will think your getting somewhere then you will slide back shoot like crap the world is ending , then back and better than before. its natural progression but you have to look a year in the future for realistic goals, this is my 4th year shooting and the forth year of shooting at least 5 days a week iv gone from my first tournament of dead last to being able to beat most pros , shooting perfect scores will become a habit


I'm just now starting to believe just that. I know I'm physically able to shoot perfect and finally my mind is catching up. I shot 47 X's last night with a 2X and a couple 3X ends early on. With a little more confidence/practice this could have easily been mid 50's or better. I feel I'm very close right now. Once I get comfortable shooting 1 spot clean I intend on going to 2 spots. It may be a while before I get to that point though.


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## 60435 (Mar 20, 2012)

you know , when you do shoot a perfect score it dosnt end there, you go inside anything other than an inside x you will think is a bad shot


EPLC said:


> A lot of people do just that without any issues. I think once I get comfortable with my newly built process scoring will be possible but I'm not sure I'll go back to it. The only scoring I'm doing right now is in my league and local competitions and I seem to be able to keep my focus away from it as of late. I credit this to my new training drill.
> 
> 
> 
> I'm just now starting to believe just that. I know I'm physically able to shoot perfect and finally my mind is catching up. I shot 47 X's last night with a 2X and a couple 3X ends early on. With a little more confidence/practice this could have easily been mid 50's or better. I feel I'm very close right now


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## EPLC (May 21, 2002)

60435 said:


> you know , when you do shoot a perfect score it dosnt end there, you go inside anything other than an inside x you will think is a bad shot


Yes, but I'll have to worry about that after I get there


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## possum trapper (Nov 24, 2005)

60435 said:


> you know , when you do shoot a perfect score it dosnt end there, you go inside anything other than an inside x you will think is a bad shot


when you shoot a perfect score it's time to toe the line with the best in the world and see how it goes


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## montigre (Oct 13, 2008)

I remain of the school that it is better not to score while practicing as it is nearly impossible to focus completely on whatever task you're trying to improve upon if a score is popping into the equation.. Use the leagues and local shoots to verify your practice by score, if needed.


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## 60435 (Mar 20, 2012)

possum trapper said:


> when you shoot a perfect score it's time to toe the line with the best in the world and see how it goes


 did that


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## 60435 (Mar 20, 2012)

montigre said:


> I remain of the school that it is better not to score while practicing as it is nearly impossible to focus completely on whatever task you're trying to improve upon if a score is popping into the equation.. Use the leagues and local shoots to verify your practice by score, if needed.


wether you score or not its still in your head what your doing


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## redman (Feb 22, 2003)

Positive mental imagery right before I draw and PERFECT PRACTICE is what works best for me.


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## PSE Archer (Oct 26, 2014)

Scoring gives you a base line figure as what to expect in a tournament. 

If there is targe on the bale- the shot is scored. I may not write it down. But it is scored. 

I have shot several 57s x's (BHFS) in practice this season but not in tournaments. This tells me there is a hole in my process. Once an archer becomes results oriented - the focus on the process diminishes.


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## ron w (Jan 5, 2013)

erdman41 said:


> I score everything. So to me scoring isn't anything to be concerned about at a tournament because that is what I am always doing.


 that works fine if your shot is already developed to the point that you don't have to work on it, much...but then you should be shooting upper 50's to 60 x's all the time, every time. but if there is there is some work to be done, scoring is the last thing you should be concentrating on, because score doesn't happen unless the shot is right and if the shot isn't right, score won't be there, so score doesn't matter. 
bottom line.....you have to have the execution, before score will improve, so what happens at the bow, is more important than what happens at the target.
I think it's pretty hard to refute that logic.


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## erdman41 (May 6, 2009)

ron w said:


> but then you should be shooting upper 50's to 60 x's all the time, every time.


And I do hence everything is scored. Two practice ends and start the round.


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## EPLC (May 21, 2002)

I have to agree with ron w as this is kind of the chicken or the egg. I guess I could have asked the original question differently because it really doesn't matter if you score or not as long as your focus isn't on it, and getting in the way of your process. As mentioned, I've found a training routine that seems to be helping me focus on the task at hand instead of the end result. I do this by making the next X my point of focus. This is accomplished by reducing the overall goal to a manageable number, which in my case is 10 (or 12) arrows, one at a time with the goal of shooting clean. Currently I'm still missing one or two but I'm getting more and more confident in the process and I am able to carry this line of thinking into competition. I'm engraining this attitude into my overall thinking and I'm seeing positive results when I do score because my focus is beginning to adapt to a one arrow mindset. This is the first training exercise that has had this effect. I'm liking it!


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## erdman41 (May 6, 2009)

EPLC said:


> I have to agree with ron w as this is kind of the chicken or the egg. I guess I could have asked the original question differently because it really doesn't matter if you score or not as long as your focus isn't on it, and getting in the way of your process. As mentioned, I've found a training routine that seems to be helping me focus on the task at hand instead of the end result. I do this by making the next X my point of focus. This is accomplished by reducing the overall goal to a manageable number, which in my case is 10 (or 12) arrows, one at a time with the goal of shooting clean. Currently I'm still missing one or two but I'm getting more and more confident in the process and I am able to carry this line of thinking into competition. I'm engraining this attitude into my overall thinking and I'm seeing positive results when I do score because my focus is beginning to adapt to a one arrow mindset. This is the first training exercise that has had this effect. I'm liking it!


Well that's a different question. I am not thinking about scoring while shooting. If scoring enters my head it's an automatic let down. Scoring is done at the bale and every arrow for me.


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## EPLC (May 21, 2002)

erdman41 said:


> Well that's a different question. I am not thinking about scoring while shooting. If scoring enters my head it's an automatic let down. Scoring is done at the bale and every arrow for me.


Exactly right. I'm one that has had difficulty with the end result getting in the way of my process and needed to find something to break the habit. Projecting an outcome seems to be a real poison for me and it hasn't been easy but this seems to be doing the trick.


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## Mahly (Dec 18, 2002)

I'm a little on both sides of that fence (Mr. Miyagi would be mad!).
I like to spend the vast majority of my practices focusing on something other than score. Be it my float, my release execution, something else. I want to practice with a purpose.
But I can't leave it just there.
At the end of the day, I'll shoot a round for score.
I use an app to keep track, so I occupy my mind with exactly where each arrow hit, and I don't have to write down Xs.
Admittedly, I would know if I hadn't missed any, but I also try not to count how many ends have been shot.
I have on occasion been surprised that I have already fired 60 arrows!
Each screen looks the same, so you don't see the card adding up.
I "have" to score a round so I can keep track of the results of my practice.
Now, I also do this because I can't practice nearly as often as I would like (changing that in March).
It's hard to keep at it for a month without checking progress.
Sometimes I can only shoot 3-4 times a month


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## ron w (Jan 5, 2013)

it's pretty much a poison for anyone. what the pros , "pros", is that they have a really good handle on this specific issue. one arrow and only that one arrow at a time..... very hard to keep control of when you see your score every two or so minutes and as EPLC once said, score is the only metric we have to grade our progress.


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## Mahly (Dec 18, 2002)

That's true, 
I finally found a "shooting buddy" (only way I can get into the club right now).
I think I'm gonna try to steal a little of EPLC's idea about the 10-12 arrows.
I'm going to try to stop keeping a running score, but score only the 5 arrows by them selves.
We will count each end as the only score. 
Perfect score is 5X instead of 60. 
No need for a score card, each round of 5 is its own game.
With each arrow being 20% of your score, I'm hoping we focus more on each arrow, and less on the actual score.
If your a 50x shooter, your used to missing 10 times a game.
Here, you can't afford to miss 1, so you better make it perfect!
I'll let you know how it works in real life vs my mind. LOL!


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## EPLC (May 21, 2002)

Mahly said:


> That's true,
> I finally found a "shooting buddy" (only way I can get into the club right now).
> I think I'm gonna try to steal a little of EPLC's idea about the 10-12 arrows.
> I'm going to try to stop keeping a running score, but score only the 5 arrows by them selves.
> ...


That sounds like a good variation although for me I think the 1 arrow ends really keep me thinking straight. That said, I think anything that keeps the goal within a range that is achievable can work, while keeping a certain amount of pressure as well. Having the goal of shooting clean keeps the pressure on and when it becomes too easy you just have to add more arrows to the drill.


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## ron w (Jan 5, 2013)

erdman41 said:


> And I do hence everything is scored. Two practice ends and start the round.


 yup, if I am going to shoot a scoring round for practice,..... just like it's done at a shoot. 
where do you shoot ?.


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## erdman41 (May 6, 2009)

ron w said:


> yup, if I am going to shoot a scoring round for practice,..... just like it's done at a shoot.
> where do you shoot ?.


15 yards in my basement and Mouldy's Archery as much as I can. As many tournaments as life allows.


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## ron w (Jan 5, 2013)

oh, you're over on the "west coast" . I've been in mouldy's a couple times, never shot there , though. that's where I saw my first Merlin bow, a pewter colored Max2000, back in about 1999 and decided I was going to shoot them. that lead to owning 6 of them before they went belly up. I still think they were the best shooting bows, I've ever owned.


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## EPLC (May 21, 2002)

*Shot my first clean one today!*

I'm very happy with the way this 12 arrow drill is helping me convert my thinking to just shooting X's, one at a time. Today I shot 2 rounds of 12 and started off a little sloppy missing two of my first three shots and then another one on shot #12. The first two I can attribute to not warming up properly before I started shooting my practice drill. The last miss was one that went off before I was settled in completely. I decided to shoot another round into the same spot and cleaned all 12... first time clean and felt pretty good about my progress this morning. For the first time I actually have a shot that I truly understand the feel of and can repeat it at will. My float is better, my release is better and the result is better. Previously, I would never know which EPLC would show up as I never really had a good handle on what I was doing. Some of my worst performances came after shooting some of my best. Very frustrating...


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## Mahly (Dec 18, 2002)

EPLC said:


> That sounds like a good variation although for me I think the 1 arrow ends really keep me thinking straight. That said, I think anything that keeps the goal within a range that is achievable can work, while keeping a certain amount of pressure as well. Having the goal of shooting clean keeps the pressure on and when it becomes too easy you just have to add more arrows to the drill.


I suppose the only benefit is that I can shoot at the range with people, and get the same mount of shooting in (no automatic lanes here).
No score cards, no running total. Just how many Xs this round.


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## EPLC (May 21, 2002)

Mahly said:


> I suppose the only benefit is that I can shoot at the range with people, and get the same mount of shooting in (no automatic lanes here).
> No score cards, no running total. Just how many Xs this round.


I have an advantage on you as I can shoot every day if I want. When others are shooting I just wait and retrieve with them. It makes for a good rhythm. Some of the folks I shoot with have noticed my improved shooting and have joined in with the 1 arrow ends. There were three of us this morning so we were all retrieving together. I'm just happy as a clam with my shooting as of late!


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## Mahly (Dec 18, 2002)

EPLC said:


> I have an advantage on you as I can shoot every day if I want.


I so hate you! (J/K)


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

EPLC, wondering if you're the same. I began the one arrow drill sometime back. One thing that really stands out, I don't think about stance, foot placement. Feet just go where they should....Well, most of the time.....


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

Quote Originally Posted by EPLC View Post 
I have an advantage on you as I can shoot every day if I want."




Mahly said:


> I so hate you! (J/K)


I ain't tellin' ya I can shoot every day I want or can open up the kitchen window and shoot from the kitchen. Nope, ain't tellin' ya


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## bgviii (Feb 16, 2010)

Mahly you mentioned an app. What is the name of the app? I'd like to check it out. Any other apps you use as well?.


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## Mahly (Dec 18, 2002)

ArcherZUpshot 
Very handy.


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## EPLC (May 21, 2002)

SonnyThomas said:


> EPLC, wondering if you're the same. I began the one arrow drill sometime back. One thing that really stands out, I don't think about stance, foot placement. Feet just go where they should....Well, most of the time.....


Actually I go through my entire shot routine each arrow. 



SonnyThomas said:


> Quote Originally Posted by EPLC View Post
> I have an advantage on you as I can shoot every day if I want."
> 
> I ain't tellin' ya I can shoot every day I want or can open up the kitchen window and shoot from the kitchen. Nope, ain't tellin' ya


No windows required as my club is only 10.4 miles south of my home and an easy ride. There's also an archery lanes/shop about half that distance but why pay $15 per hour when I can shoot for free 24X7... and I do tend to indulge.


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## Seaflite (May 20, 2012)

I was coached in college (and still follow this advice today) to practice archery & practice shooting tournaments.(2 different things) If you work on form, don't score. Blank bale, eyes closed or distance at say a paper plate with no checking where the arrows landed between shots. Just form, strive for consistency. Then work in practice shooting under tournament conditions as much as possible. For example: get to range, shoot your 2 practice ends at an official target for the round. If you are training a 2 day Fita, start at 9. Get a timer. (Smart phone app) shoot the A/B C/D lines. Even if you are by yourself, wait your turn. Shoot 90, break-70, then take the target down and work on form, blank bale, close distance sight settings, anything you would regularly do. Then the next morning, do the same thing with the short distances. You also have imagine yourself in a tourny setting. The same food, drink, clothes, music, everything is important. (It takes discipline to do this by yourself, but that's whats this game is all about.)

Every practice session I do has a stated goal. I only score when "practicing" to shoot a tournament.


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## ron w (Jan 5, 2013)

that last sentence says a mouthful. a lot of guys don't realize there is a difference.


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## spicman (Dec 1, 2003)

eplc, do you shoot at the same spot on a 5 spot target or shoot a different one each time? the reason i ask is i may have one spot where the x is shot out and another with different results. thanks for the great info. i`m not the level of shooter that most of you are at. i average 299-42 or 43 x great reading, thanks guys


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## ron w (Jan 5, 2013)

if you're averaging 299-42 or 3, you are certainly in the same group of shooters as EPLC, and most of those on this forum. I always am amazed at how people look at the levels of their shooting. 
we seem to think that if you can't shoot 300's and 55 or better x's all the time, you are just "average", yet if you are a bowler, a 299 average is almost unattainable, and considered really good......or just about "pro level".


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## dunmoab (Apr 4, 2013)

I'm not scoring at all in practice. I try to just shot good, solid shots. One at a time. And ignore all else including where the shot falls. Its very...veeeerrryy hard to do. I feel this helps the shot process and works harder on the 4th axis(mental game). When shooting in a tourney, I try to ignore score. I try not to get involved with the scoring part, but will if its my turn but try to remove myself from it. Meaning I try not to pay any attention to my score. Its difficult. Very difficult. But that's the process. I just try to shoot each arrow/shot as solid as possible and forget it after it leaves the bow. 
I used to score everything. Then realized that I was hitting flat spots in my score no matter how hard I tried. It seemed the harder I tried the worse it got. Then came the light bulb.....one tourney. I was very relaxed and calm. (Actually very tired after midnight shift.). And just really did'nt care much. Shot my personal best score.....by a bunch! That was the moment when I realized that shooting them one at a time, solid shots. Focusing on form, every single shot was the way, ignoring score and all else was the way ........for me. Been doing it ever since. Now when I start noticing score and the like, I start dropping a few X's bcause the 4th axis(mental side)gets distracted from the shot process and it breaks down.
This is NOT easy....but works for me


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## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

Yeah I score, I go to 40 3d torunaments a year and I go to the iowa pro am and do a winter indoor league so scoring through out my season is a constant thing. I really never feel the pressure to shoot scoring rounds in my back yard shooting or my indoor training because I get my scoring fix somewhere else. 

I do specific training sessions that simulate competition though, to me shooting at a orange dot is a huge mistake. So when i am shooting at home in the back yard I always shoot at a set of asa scoring rings so that I am in a constant aiming at a 12 ring that I really can't see and that I am either hitting it or missing on the top edge nice and safe in the 10 ring. When I shoot indoor I make sure that I shoot either a vegas or 5-spot target , I also make sure that it changes from a fresh face to a shot up face during the shooting session so that I am used to putting up a fresh face all the time during the middle of a session to simulate beginning a scoring round.

One of the things that bothered me for a few years is success, when I showed up and right out of my truck I was banging x's during warm ups for the 40 minutes before the league night I would start worrying that holy crap I have shot at least 50 to 70 x's in a row and I am shooting awesome so now I have to shoot two practice ends and then try and shoot a 60x round which is another 70 x's and there is no way I am going to hit 140 x's in a row.

These are the types of stupid thoughts that I have worked on to eliminate them from my shooting. Shooting running totals has been the key for me, I have had some wonderful days where I might struggle a little for 30 or so shots getting things up and running and then I settled in after missing a few x's and then rattle off 95x's in a row to finish up a session. I used to only fixate on the fact that I missed some x's and never allow myself to realize that I had 95 executions in a row that were awesome. I just had one of those days yesterday, I came in and shot a old shot up target for a while and I was hitting on the low edge every stinking time but it was shot up so I didn't change anything. I then put up my vegas fresh target and I started shooting and I was still banging the low edge but I left my sight alone and just executed good shots and then I missed two 10 rings out the bottome by a 1/16 inch so I then decided to start putting clicks in my sight and I ended up shooting about 20 more shots and put 4 stinking clicks in my sight to get it dead on. After missing a couple 10 rings out the bottom I then shot for about a hour and shot clean and had a great time. yeah my scoring round was screwed up but I shot awesome.

Still don't know why I had to put clicks in my sight.


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## ron w (Jan 5, 2013)

the single most effective element in developing your shot process, is to allow yourself to let down on shots that aren't running well. if you've done any amount of developmental drills to reach the point where your shot is successful, when you do it right, not letting down on poorly running shots will quickly negate thaose efforts, because every time you don't refuse to let a less than good, or perfect execution run, you reinforce what ever element of the shot is not running right. when you reinforce that element, it eventually develops an additional set of default commands, by the repeated support of not being refused and that forces your shot process to choose which one it will run on every time it runs. the more defaults that are in the bank, the more confused the administration of the shot process will get, subconsciously. this specific state of confusion, is what develops target panic, by not having a crystal clear set of established commands for your shot to run on.
this is exactly what the "let down drills develop, by eliminating those " not so perfect" sets of commands, every time you let down on a shot that isn't running perfectly, during the drill.
by refusing to let poorly running shot continue, in the drill, you eliminate bad commands until all that is left, is the one good set of commands and therefore, the only set that your process has to administer, is the one set left, that produces good shots.


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## dunmoab (Apr 4, 2013)

Yeah Padgett, I feel you. That's when my X count falls. I'll be clean into the 8th to 10th end , realize it...then miss one. Get pissed and miss another. Keeping the 4th axis straight is tough. Allowing yourself to get out of the way and have an perfect round.....very tough.


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## ron w (Jan 5, 2013)

the more developed your shot process becomes, the more it recognizes when things aren't running right and the more anal it gets about small inconsistencies make things annoying. you actually develop a "sixth sense" where your shot process will subconsciously tell you to "add a click or two and I will feel much better" today. because as it develops perfection, it also thrives on that perfection to develop. 
that "not knowing why you needed those clicks", is accurate, but inconsequential.....the fact is, you needed to do that to make your shot process run happily, so that's what you did, and it sated that anal dependence on needing to feel good about how it was running, si it produced good shot for the rest of the session.
if you ever watch a line of pros shooting, you will see them put a click or two on there sights, occasionally, for what looks like no reason, because they appear to be nailing the center just fine. 
this is exactly what is going on.


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## EPLC (May 21, 2002)

spicman said:


> eplc, do you shoot at the same spot on a 5 spot target or shoot a different one each time? the reason i ask is i may have one spot where the x is shot out and another with different results. thanks for the great info. i`m not the level of shooter that most of you are at. i average 299-42 or 43 x great reading, thanks guys


I'm shooting one spot at a time and with 12 arrows the hole doesn't get too unmanageable. No more than a full game as you are only shooting 1/5 of a game. 



ron w said:


> if you're averaging 299-42 or 3, you are certainly in the same group of shooters as EPLC, and most of those on this forum. I always am amazed at how people look at the levels of their shooting.
> we seem to think that if you can't shoot 300's and 55 or better x's all the time, you are just "average", yet if you are a bowler, a 299 average is almost unattainable, and considered really good......or just about "pro level".


Yes having an honest 299 average in the mid 40's ain't bad at all, assuming it's a truly mathematical average, and not a subjective average. Averages are funny like that. I've been in that range for quite some time and don't hide from it like some who seem to prop themselves up a tad. BTW, it's a mathematical impossibility to have a 300 average unless you shoot nothing but 300's. Also, with the serge in the progress of my shooting lately I'm expecting that by the end of this season I should have upped my league average into the 50X plus group.

With regard to the bowling reference, all 299's are not created equal...


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## erdman41 (May 6, 2009)

EPLC said:


> BTW, it's a mathematical impossibility to have a 300 average unless you shoot nothing but 300's.


Very true but if in the last 50 rounds you shot 49 300's and one 299 what would be your average? Nobody is going to say they have a 299.98 average. I think it's OK for them to say they have a 300 average.


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## EPLC (May 21, 2002)

erdman41 said:


> Very true but if in the last 50 rounds you shot 49 300's and one 299 what would be your average? Nobody is going to say they have a 299.98 average. I think it's OK for them to say they have a 300 average.


I think you understand my point. People tend to state their "average" based on very subjective information all too often and not based on an actual average. I see it all the time. Keeping an honest average is the only true way to understand which direction, if any, your performance is heading. I can claim an honest 298.7 45X average.


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## erdman41 (May 6, 2009)

EPLC said:


> I think you understand my point.


I do. But one can say they average a 300 and still be honest about their shooting.


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## EPLC (May 21, 2002)

erdman41 said:


> I do. But one can say they average a 300 and still be honest about their shooting.


No argument.


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## ron w (Jan 5, 2013)

then you know exactly what I mean ! 
the real question, is where do you start working on x's instead of getting that300 consistently first. my thoughts on this is that we work on x's all the time, as the bullseye, or that 300 round, is actually a by-product of what we set out to obtain. some what "chicken or egg", as you said, earlier. the "cut off" between x count and potential to shoot a 300 is something everyone has to evaluate and establish for them selves, by being honest with themselves, as to the level of their shooting, yet at the same time, that "aim small-miss small" criteria, suggests that x count is realistically, the goal to work towards. 
the honest answer, is that working on x count can only happen, when our execution is at the level that realistically has the potential to achieve consistent 300's first.....some what of a vicious circle.
as I say, "every aspect and element of a shot, has both, a supporting aspect and dependent aspect, from the very essential basics, all the way to the most advanced conditions". the better that supporting vs. dependent association works together, the better we will shoot. the key is to strongly develop that association, with no holes or weak spots, as early in our shooting as possible, so it leaves lots of room for the more advanced development as we progress to the point in our shooting where x-count becomes the developmental focus, instead of the "tool" being used develop score.


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## EPLC (May 21, 2002)

erdman41 said:


> I do. But one can say they average a 300 and still be honest about their shooting.


I've shot enough 300's to consider myself a "300 shooter"... but my current goal is to be a "300 Average Shooter"... there is a big difference and I'm not worrying about a few decimal points  



ron w said:


> then you know exactly what I mean !
> the real question, is where do you start working on x's instead of getting that300 consistently first. my thoughts on this is that we work on x's all the time, as the bullseye, or that 300 round, is actually a by-product of what we set out to obtain. some what "chicken or egg", as you said, earlier. the "cut off" between x count and potential to shoot a 300 is something everyone has to evaluate and establish for them selves, by being honest with themselves, as to the level of their shooting, yet at the same time, that "aim small-miss small" criteria, suggests that x count is realistically, the goal to work towards.
> the honest answer, is that working on x count can only happen, when our execution is at the level that realistically has the potential to achieve consistent 300's first.....some what of a vicious circle.
> as I say, "every aspect and element of a shot, has both, a supporting aspect and dependent aspect, from the very essential basics, all the way to the most advanced conditions". the better that supporting vs. dependent association works together, the better we will shoot. the key is to strongly develop that association, with no holes or weak spots, as early in our shooting as possible, so it leaves lots of room for the more advanced development as we progress to the point in our shooting where x-count becomes the developmental focus, instead of the "tool" being used develop score.


Some of the fringe benefits I'm experiencing with my new training is a change in mindset. While I didn't plan it this way, my little one arrow drill is helping in this transition from score to X count via way of process. While I agree the "potential" has to be there first, meaning the ability to shoot consistently within the 5 ring, I would think that if 300 is the goal you won't make it too often. By switching focus to the X the "potential" increases 100 fold that 300's will just fall in line. I'm feeling like a kid at Christmas with my new found attitude about this.

And you lost me on that last part.


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## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

I am having my best indoor winter and I simply haven't shot hardly any scoring rounds, this winter because of money I am not doing any leagues and I didn't attend any big shoots like I wanted. I had some vegas targets and I did shoot around 4 scoring rounds just before christmas and I shot 3 300 vegas rounds and one was something like a 23x and then a 26x and a 28x. My one that wasn't a 300 vegas was a 299 vegas with 29x. That is it, I don't think I have shot one 5-spot round all winter.

Did I mention that this was my best indoor winter ever? My confidence in my shooting has never been higher and my thoughts are so clear to what I am trying to accomplish and my final score or my accuracy has nothing to do with what I am doing.


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## EPLC (May 21, 2002)

Padgett said:


> I am having my best indoor winter and I simply haven't shot hardly any scoring rounds, this winter because of money I am not doing any leagues and I didn't attend any big shoots like I wanted. I had some vegas targets and I did shoot around 4 scoring rounds just before christmas and I shot 3 300 vegas rounds and one was something like a 23x and then a 26x and a 28x. My one that wasn't a 300 vegas was a 299 vegas with 29x. That is it, I don't think I have shot one 5-spot round all winter.
> 
> Did I mention that this was my best indoor winter ever? My confidence in my shooting has never been higher and my thoughts are so clear to what I am trying to accomplish and my final score or my accuracy has nothing to do with what I am doing.


I'm beginning to feel that way myself!


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## erdman41 (May 6, 2009)

EPLC said:


> "300 Average Shooter"


I don't know why but that sounds funny to me. I know what you are trying to say though.

Just worry about x's eventually like you said the 300 won't enter your mind.


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## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

I know that this year I sound very confident and I comment on my current level of shooting but I have went through all of these issues. Just two seasons ago I won a 3d shoot and was about 25 points better than any score on the course that day and shooting awesome and then I had to shoot in front of 50 people to win a couple shoot downs and by the time the two shoot downs were over I had lost a arrow and shot probably the most incredibly comical melt down ever witnessed. I had to do some serious soul searching to learn from the experience so that I can be the mentally tough person I am now. It comes down to accepting your level and allowing yourself to just shoot at that level and wait for your body to transition to a new level. Then when you get to that new level shoot at that one until the next one shows up. The moment that you put up a scoring target and try to force yourself to shoot at a higher level than you normally shoot you are screwed. The moment that you try and foce yourself to shoot at your normal level you are screwed.

I have personally eliminated my worries or expectations, I just execute sweet shots. Done.


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## EPLC (May 21, 2002)

erdman41 said:


> I don't know why but that sounds funny to me. I know what you are trying to say though.
> 
> Just worry about x's eventually like you said the 300 won't enter your mind.


A 300 average shooter is one that seldom misses a 300 score but pretty much can count on it. A 300 shooter will be in a range that is somewhat less than that and the 300 is off and on. Just a separation based on skill and discipline


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## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

Yeah, but there are different kinds of 300 shooters, there is a 300 5-spot shooter and then there is a 300 vegas shooter.

Usually once you get to the point where you are a 300 5-spot guy you can move on and never go back but making the claim that you are a 300 vegas guy means that you normally shoot a 300 every time but on occasion shoot a 299. I can remember when I was a 298 vegas guy and shot a occasional 299 but it took forever to shoot my first 300 vegas. Now it is weird to not shoot a 300 vegas, I can remember when things changed. I normally shot 17 to 21 x's when shooting vegas rounds when I was a 298 guy but as I progressed with my hinge shooting and mental approaches I started getting into the mid 23 to 25x rounds and that is when the 300 vegas rounds became normal. My highest x count ever the 29x vegas was a 299 round and it was a weird thing because I dropped that 10 ring early in the round and it wasn't a poor execution, my float just appened to be over there when it fired but my execution was a good one. Go figure.


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## Mahly (Dec 18, 2002)

LOL! It's always that ONE arrow.
My last time out I had jumped from 41x to 50x but hit a 4 anyway >:-(


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## ron w (Jan 5, 2013)

the ones that hurt are the 299's with 59x's !.


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## Mahly (Dec 18, 2002)

Right?!?! Or Dave Cousins at Vegas last year... Had the most Xs of anyone... But dropped that 1 10. Heartbreaker!


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## ron w (Jan 5, 2013)

yea the old 300 with one x will beat a 299 with 59 x's all day long, !. there ought be law !.


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## spicman (Dec 1, 2003)

thanks eplc. just looking at some different drills.lots of good info on here thanks guys


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## EPLC (May 21, 2002)

spicman said:


> thanks eplc. just looking at some different drills.lots of good info on here thanks guys


You're welcome, I hope it helps others as much as it is helping me.


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## Brad Rega (Oct 31, 2002)

I think scoring is necessary when practicing.

Why practice? Because you want to shoot a good score and hopefully win in a competition. You can't win a competition without a score. If you are not scoring in practice, it's often a recipe for failure in a competition as once the scoring element kicks in, things often go to hell pretty quickly. All that practicing you did just goes down the drain. If you make practice different than competition, it is likely you will not shoot the same. The point of practicing is to prepare for a competition is it not? Therefore I believe Practice should mimic competition as much as possible. 

All you have to do is teach yourself that a score is nothing but a number. A score is not always a reflection of how you shot. I have felt like I was shooting horribly and still had a decent score, I have felt like I have shot amazing and had a horrible score. Some days the stars are aligned and things work out and others, not so much. As many people know, especially nowadays, even a perfect score may not get you very far. You just have to shoot your game and whatever happens happens. 

It's also good to score and keep a log book so you can take a look back at those scores to see any trends. Just the other day I was looking at my book from the past time I was shooting regularly (2004) where I noted all my scores and changes in equipment. I'm making some life changes so I can get back to shooting more seriously like I was ten years ago and this has helped.


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## EPLC (May 21, 2002)

Brad Rega said:


> I think scoring is necessary when practicing.
> 
> Why practice? Because you want to shoot a good score and hopefully win in a competition. You can't win a competition without a score. If you are not scoring in practice, it's often a recipe for failure in a competition as once the scoring element kicks in, things often go to hell pretty quickly. All that practicing you did just goes down the drain. If you make practice different than competition, it is likely you will not shoot the same. The point of practicing is to prepare for a competition is it not? Therefore I believe Practice should mimic competition as much as possible.
> 
> ...


I think this is absolutely true... for some people, yet for others it is not. I seem to be in the "not" crowd. The practice drill I am using isn't really "scored" but it still provides a certain amount of pressure as I do keep track of the number of arrows, 10's and 9's I get during the round... The goal is to shoot clean so I guess it's kind of like scoring. At the risk of repeating myself, the round is 1/3 of a Vegas 300 or 1/5 of a NFAA 300 with 1 arrow ends. I find that it creates a one-arrow mindset that does carry over to competition. It may not be everybody's cup of tea but it seems to be producing positive results for me. A friend is also doing this and he seems to be shooting better as well.


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## cschwanz (Sep 10, 2012)

I think if there is a target being shot at, you will always "score" it, whether or not you write it down and total them up is different. If you take a shot and its a perfect X, you think "good, X". If you miss, you will think "Oh crap, shot a 9 there". Whether you total them up at the end of the day and say "I shot a 297" or say "I had a few out today but shot fairly well", its still scoring them one way or the other.

I guess I'min the camp of I want to know the score. If you don't track scores, how will you know you are progressing other than feeling "good" or "bad" about the day?


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## montigre (Oct 13, 2008)

I remain in the no scoring bull pen. While I agree that while shooting it is probably impossible not to know, at least on a peripheral level, what your score is, the difference between being aware of your score and focusing on the score itself is in the level of awareness given to the process. 

If I shoot that arrow that goes into the 9, I am aware of it as I need to identify if it was just an errant shot or if something bigger may be going on with my routine or equipment, but I dont increase the level of focus on it to encompass thoughts such as "now I have to shoot clean to remain in the running" or something similar. That type of thinking and focus on score, I believe, can create all sorts of mental issues and increase pressures and cause glitches that have no positive outcomes in the long run. 

Even if I have to keep score during a game, once the scores are jotted down on the scorecard, someone can hold a gun to my head and I would not be able to tell them what anyone in the group shot or what their running score is--it's that unimportant to me at that time.


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## Ned250 (Aug 10, 2009)

I'm in the score during practice, sometimes. There's practice to work on a certain aspect of your shot or an equipment change, but then there should also be practice scoring. Putting yourself in some sort of dress rehearsal type of practice certainly has it's place IMO. 

I had a hard time putting my thoughts into words, so I'm sorry if this made a mess!



montigre said:


> While I agree that while shooting it is probably impossible not to know, at least on a peripheral level, what your score is, the difference between being aware of your score and focusing on the score itself is in the level of awareness given to the process.


I wholeheartedly agree, especially with the part in red. However, that's exactly why I think it's important to score during practice. Being aware that there's a consequence on your shot helps to simulate the tournament experience.



montigre said:


> If I shoot that arrow that goes into the 9, I am aware of it as I need to identify if it was just an errant shot or if something bigger may be going on with my routine or equipment, but I dont increase the level of focus on it to encompass thoughts such as "now I have to shoot clean to remain in the running" or something similar. That type of thinking and focus on score, I believe, can create all sorts of mental issues and increase pressures and cause glitches that have no positive outcomes in the long run.


This is why I think you should practice scoring. You shot a 9 for a certain reason, and need to practice that situation. I agree that you shouldn't try to force the next shot(s) because you missed. There's no making it up. However, when you practice scoring you're learning how to react to these types of situations.



montigre said:


> Even if I have to keep score during a game, once the scores are jotted down on the scorecard, someone can hold a gun to my head and I would not be able to tell them what anyone in the group shot or what their running score is--it's that unimportant to me at that time.


Why can't you do this during practice?


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## cbrunson (Oct 25, 2010)

montigre said:


> I remain in the no scoring bull pen. While I agree that while shooting it is probably impossible not to know, at least on a peripheral level, what your score is, the difference between being aware of your score and focusing on the score itself is in the level of awareness given to the process.
> 
> If I shoot that arrow that goes into the 9, I am aware of it as I need to identify if it was just an errant shot or if something bigger may be going on with my routine or equipment, but I dont increase the level of focus on it to encompass thoughts such as "now I have to shoot clean to remain in the running" or something similar. That type of thinking and focus on score, I believe, can create all sorts of mental issues and increase pressures and cause glitches that have no positive outcomes in the long run.
> 
> Even if I have to keep score during a game, once the scores are jotted down on the scorecard, someone can hold a gun to my head and I would not be able to tell them what anyone in the group shot or what their running score is--it's that unimportant to me at that time.


I see these points, the main one being the distraction, which I certainly agree. A distraction is bad no matter what, when you should be focussed on the shot you are trying to execute. That doesn't negate the fact that adding pressure to perform throughout the game is beneficial. I wouldn't suggest worrying about score if you are in the camp that can easily forget because you've dropped a few points already at the halfway point, but when you know without question, that you haven't missed an X, and you're starting the eighth end, you know your score whether you tried to keep track or not, and being used to finishing the game under that kind of pressure, is a good thing.


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## EPLC (May 21, 2002)

The results are in and the winner is "everyone". I don't think you can be wrong with regard to scoring or not scoring. Each individual is different with different triggers. I've done it both ways and have found a method that I can work with that translates nicely to the real world.


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## Ned250 (Aug 10, 2009)

cbrunson said:


> I see these points, the main one being the distraction, which I certainly agree. A distraction is bad no matter what, when you should be focussed on the shot you are trying to execute. That doesn't negate the fact that adding pressure to perform throughout the game is beneficial. I wouldn't suggest worrying about score if you are in the camp that can easily forget because you've dropped a few points already at the halfway point, but when you know without question, that you haven't missed an X, and you're starting the eighth end, you know your score whether you tried to keep track or not, and being used to finishing the game under that kind of pressure, is a good thing.


You sure put it a lot better than I did!


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## cbrunson (Oct 25, 2010)

Ned250 said:


> You sure put it a lot better than I did!


You brought up a good point with not being able to make up for a miss. I think a lot of us tend to clean up after a miss rather than tense up more. Once in a while a miss shakes me up enough to blow a couple more shots, but most of the time it is a slap to the face that makes me focus more for the next few ends. Spot handicaps are a good training for this. It may seem silly to most that I would get upset with a ten, but when my spot is a half shaft ten, then a line cutter outside half shaft is a miss. It's all about tightening up under pressure and getting it done.


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## Ned250 (Aug 10, 2009)

cbrunson said:


> You brought up a good point with not being able to make up for a miss. I think a lot of us tend to clean up after a miss rather than tense up more. Once in a while a miss shakes me up enough to blow a couple more shots, but most of the time it is a slap to the face that makes me focus more for the next few ends. Spot handicaps are a good training for this. It may seem silly to most that I would get upset with a ten, but when my spot is a half shaft ten, then a line cutter outside half shaft is a miss. It's all about tightening up under pressure and getting it done.


That's me to a T.


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## treeman65 (Nov 24, 2005)

SonnyThomas said:


> EPLC, you know I shoot one arrow shots. Probably the best thing I ever went with... Score? Kind of hard not to score or at least see a resulting bad shot. Shooting one target and only that target you can figure out what works, stance, form, execution, rushing a shot. Even longer distances, 30 and 35 yards, I shoot one and maybe two arrows and pull. Only if picture taking I'll shoot more to show. Last one??? My TX4. 2nd day of shooting, all 6 arrows in the bull's eyes from 40 yards.
> 
> Yes, one arrow drills have their place.


Can you elaborate on your one shot drills please


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## EPLC (May 21, 2002)

treeman65 said:


> Can you elaborate on your one shot drills please


Here's mine...



EPLC said:


> ...I've dumbed down my practice to a simple goal oriented but process building routine. I'm not sure if I thought of it, read it here or it is a variation of several learning's, but here it is (again). Simply put, I shoot 1 arrow at 1 spot of a multi spot target, retrieve the arrow and repeat. I shoot 10 ends if I'm using a Vegas face and 12 on the NFAA 5 spot. My "goal" is to shoot it clean and in order to do this I'm forced to focus on my process. It seems to be working as my results are improving along with my ability to keep my thoughts on the arrow at hand. Just focus on hitting the X, the X that I'm shooting and not any other X. The end "result" I seek is hitting the X, the only X within reach. I'm beginning to think it's really Ok to be result based, so long as the result is simply hitting the X at hand. The result is manageable and doesn't interfere with the requirement to focus on the process to get there...


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

treeman65 said:


> Can you elaborate on your one shot drills please


Well, it's just one shot and pull my arrow, not different than what I noted. You have to re-set for each shot. You learn what makes the arrow go where you want it, stance, form, execution. As for rushing the shot, that's the killer. You find that you're doing it and learn to control it so it's the smooth execution that is what puts the arrow where it should go. 
Actually, terminology wise, no different that EPLC noted...focus.


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## ron w (Jan 5, 2013)

scoring or not scoring, both have their place and purpose in your practice. when you are focused on working on your execution, there is no reason to score shots. if you concern yourself with the "score" at this time, you introduce a deliberate element of "producing score" into the specific development of the elements of your execution, that can be detrimental to how the execution should proceed. 
if you are working on the development of putting 60 shots together successfully, then scoring is what should be done, because the score is then, the result of what you do, for those 60 shots.
bottom line is just because there is a target up on the bale, doesn't mean it has to be scored.


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