# What are or are there basic fundamentals that should be part of every shot?



## cbrunson (Oct 25, 2010)

I think you will still get a lot of different answers to this. I like to keep things as simple as possible.

1. Hold it in the middle with minimal movement. If it's not staying inside the ten (or x), you can't expect the arrow to go there. It might go there on occasion, but you can't rely on it to repeatedly. Experiment with everything until you get there. You will know it when you see it. 

2. Get a clean, smooth, repeatable release. Doesn't matter if you push, pull, squeeze, or yank. All methods have proven to be successful. Some methods are more popular than others though. 

3. Let down if the shot isn't there. I would bet that 90% or more of us miss this step regularly. 

4. Don't expect any new equipment, advice, or anything else to be a viable substitute for time behind the string. It takes time. It also takes persistence.

5. Practice like you are competing. You will thank yourself later for doing this. You may think that you can just relax and shoot in competition, and if you truly can, you are my hero, but I can't. My practice scores and competition scores are very close. 

Just my opinion of course.


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## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

I have sit here a though about what to post and it is so much of a open ended question that I don't know where to begin to answer it. I just worked with a lady yesterday who at 50 just started shooting at x-mas with her new bow, when I stood there watching her i decided that her overall form was decent and so I took down the target and at 15 yards we worked on firing her release so she could get a surprise. I didn't even tell her it was called back tension. We tried index finger and thumb trigger and she did fine with both.

1. basic form: stance, draw length, draw cycle, grip

2. Surprise release at blank bale

3. floating on the spot and just firing the arrow without waiting for the pin to be perfect.

I told her to not get wrapped up being worried about accuracy that just relaxing and learning how to draw the bow correctly and fire the release smoothly was the key, I did do some demonstration shots and asked her to watch my hinge release rotate and each time she was surprised that she couldn't see any movement in my release or body. So these were the fundamental ideas that I gave her to work on and if she continues to show up I will add to them.


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## EPLC (May 21, 2002)

cbrunson said:


> I think you will still get a lot of different answers to this. I like to keep things as simple as possible.
> 
> 1. Hold it in the middle with minimal movement. If it's not staying inside the ten (or x), you can't expect the arrow to go there. It might go there on occasion, but you can't rely on it to repeatedly. Experiment with everything until you get there. You will know it when you see it.
> 
> ...


Ok, I'm not capable of getting past step 1... Of course I've never shot a 60X game either  I would suggest for those not able to be this steady to not pay attention to the movement. If you can proceed to and succeed with step 2 you can still shoot quite well, maybe not 60X but 50X and over is quite possible.


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## cbrunson (Oct 25, 2010)

EPLC said:


> Ok, I'm not capable of getting past step 1... Of course I've never shot a 60X game either  I would suggest for those not able to be this steady to not pay attention to the movement. If you can proceed to and succeed with step 2 you can still shoot quite well, maybe not 60X but 50X and over is quite possible.


You may not be able to keep it inside the ten (or x). I cant always keep it there either, but I always strive to. The point in trying to improve is not to just settle with shooting okay, or quite well. Your goal should always be to hit the center of the X, not just catch a line once in a while. I will inject the ever popular cliche' here: "_Aim small, miss small_


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## unclejane (Jul 22, 2012)

Tagged

LS


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

Like Padgett, where to start.... I'd say stance/form, but I know people who draw and shuffle their feet to be sure they are down on both feet, stand straight. Some stand and others lock their knees. "Bow fit" paramount as wrong you can be pulled out of position or strain in certain areas. Like the bow comes to you, not you to the bow. I feel the peep position is part of bow fit, but people don't understand bending the head is a muscle tension thing. At full draw, anchor consistency foremost as it partially leads to correct draw arm position, but more is there, like the bow shoulder and bow arm. Again bow fit, but too short of draw can be allowed for much better than too long. Grip correct and consistency. Might have skipped over some.

All in place, holding on target should be so much better. No stress equals better shot execution. You don't just up and change to another release, thumb, hinge, index. Rare is not having to change something, draw length, peep height and whatever.


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## rsw (May 22, 2002)

I believe that one of the first, among others, key points is to assume your stance, grip bow and load release or fingers, THEN LOOK DIRECTLY AT THE SPOT AS THOUGH IT SPOKE TO YOU -KEY IS NEVER, EVER MOVE YOUR HEAD AGAIN UNTIL THE ARROW IS IN THE TARGET. That demands a perfect setup from anchor to peep to scope so that you anchor with those three things in line- don't adjust head position to get that alignment. Dave Cousins, however, is the antithesis of that procedure. He is the only pro I have ever seen who always makes a major adjustment of head position after reaching full draw.


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## ron w (Jan 5, 2013)

where are all the " do what works best for you" guys?. funny how when the subject matter turns to "fundimentals" they all disappear.


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## Lazarus (Sep 19, 2005)

It's not funny at all ronw. 

This is the Intermediate and Advanced forum. While I totally support any members privilege to post whatever they want, wherever they want, personally I'm not inspired to discuss; stance, draw, anchor, hold, aim, release, follow through in this venue. I just dropped by this topic to see if anyone had said anything intertesting.

Furthermore, you are always asking for "evidence" or whatever your term is. I don't want to sidetrack this topic, but would you like a list of decorated shooters that say you must develop your own shot?


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## cbrunson (Oct 25, 2010)

The guy asked for basics. There's really only a few things that aren't individualized, and they would be quite generic.


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## ron w (Jan 5, 2013)

Lazarus,
there are certainly "fundamental elements" that have been established as parts of a decently executed shot. "developing your own shot", is a process that is based on these established and universally accepted fundamentals. "developing your own shot" is a process that occurs after and beyond these fundamentals have been acquired, or at least, "should have been acquired" . the development cannot happen, unless the fundamentals are successfully interpreted, first....that's what the "development of your own shot" entails.
my reference to "them all disappearing", simply infers the universal lack of knowledge of these "fundamentals", by the very people who are the first to jump all over someone who stresses and practices the idea that a fundamental foundation of shot, is the root of good archery. 
again, when the subject matter turns to this issue, they have nothing to submit, because they don't have any fundamental knowledge or basis, to derive their own shot from. that fundamental base process needs to be established before one can "develop their own shot".
there are members here, that are perfect examples of what I state. they admit they "don't trust their shot", but refuse to accept that they need to develop the fundamental aspect that permits them to develop that trust. 
I can pretty well assure you that the guys that you might put on that list, have a well established fundamental base that they derived "their own shot" from....... am I right ?.
once again, a thread like this is bound to drift, because the nature of the subject matter, envelopes a spectrum of associated subjects that are far too wide to be specific to the issue of the elements of a well executed shot.
as you've said...this is the "advanced forum", we should be able to tolerate the drift that is bound to happen by realizing our "advanced knowledge" includes these areas, that are so closely associated. unless of, course, one is not equipped to venture that far away from the specific issue.


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## cbrunson (Oct 25, 2010)

So then why don't you just answer the OP's question ronw, instead of trying to continually stir the pot. This is the exact thread that fits your beating to death of the basics. Just try not to get upset when someone points out that one or more successfull people do things differently than what you believe is the only correct way.


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## ron w (Jan 5, 2013)

the OP's question has been answered. i'm not stirring the pot to those who really know the facts.


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## pwyrick (Feb 13, 2011)

Part of my ongoing training has resulted in new body positions. The folks I first learned from emphasized a relaxed body. The NTS system teaches creating tension in the torso by having feet and hips aligned more open than the shoulders. The theory being that this tension creates a stronger base from which to shoot. I'm not saying this is the only "right" way. But a fundamental is a stance that provides a stable platform from which to shoot. Bow hand position is another fundamental. While there are proficient shooters holding the bow all kinds of ways, I'd think that there are ways to hold the bow that allow the shooter to rise to their best (and I'm assuming that the shooter wants to be their best rather than just competent). I learned a relaxed hand, with knuckles at approx. 45 degrees to the riser, and riser settling deeply into the thumb muscle. This is probably the predominant bow hand position of target shooters. I'm learning a slight variation that creates a slight amount of tension (very little) in the bow hand by tucking 3 fingers into my palm and placing my index finger tip at the center of the riser. So, I'd say a fundamental is a repeatable grip that transmits the least amount of torque into the riser. Again, there must be a bow hand position that supports becoming not just competent but the best that I can be.


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## pwyrick (Feb 13, 2011)

I guess I'm reading that there are as ron w says "universally accepted fundamentals": stance, bow side, release side, anchor, etc. And, they need to be repeatable. In my opinion, there are some styles that are superior to others for the shooter that wants to reach their best. I'm not trying to start a "my dogs bigger than your dog" thread, but I am very interested in why some of you think a particular "fundamental" position supports growth for the shooter. So, what are the universal fundamentals that you think belong in a shot process? I'm wondering not just "stance" but what stance (or any other fundamental) helps you be your best, and would you encourage others to adopt that position as fundamental to their shot process? Now there are exceptions to the rules. I think Reo Wilde has some positions that work for him, but I would never try teach them to others as a universal. Hope what I'm looking for makes sense.


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## RCR_III (Mar 19, 2011)

Archery is not a universal sport, because it works with your body and everyone's body is comprised differently. This will be a basis to get a lot of different answers, or similar answers based on different principles.

For myself, I've tried the NTS methods and found that the body being split into two segments and torqued did not provide the best results for myself. The standard I've set for myself is the basic "T" formation. The reasoning I have behind that is trying to position my body in a manner that does not create a torquing factor. I want my body to just be there and at release of the shot everything, regardless of movement from release, to stay in an alignment through the movement. When I worked with the NTS styled system I would get left misses frequently. What I found was that my upper body was naturally wanting to align with the bottom, so that when my release went off my shoulders and upper body was moving left. Obviously though the NTS system has a remarkable track record, but at the same time team USA on a World Archery side of things hasn't been as dominant of late as well. Not saying that the tying factor to that is the NTS system, but everyone's got an opinion as to factors that play into things. I have a few on that that are purely speculation. 

With that all said and out of the way, a very basic fundamental platform I have in place for myself is this: 

1. Following my shot routine. 
2. Creating and maintaining my checkpoints. Meaning the areas I have in place to pay attention to what I see and feel and back off or go forward. 
3. Slowing myself down. I have a tendency to rush. Anything from slowing down between shots, to running my release execution slower. When I slow down I'm more accurate, more in tuned with my body and what it is going through, and smoother.
4. Analyzing each shot. What it felt like. What were the good factors I need to engrain into my brain and repeat. What were the bad factors I need to correct and minimize going forward.
5. Keeping track of patterns. I use ArcherZUpshot for my shooting. With this I have an area to take notes and watch development.


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## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

I think that this is a great thread for us in the advanced sub forum, Earlier this week when I showed up to shoot and the new lady shooter was standing there on the range and I had a opportunity to give her some advice I took 5 minutes to just watch her do things and in that short amount of time I made some really advanced decisions on how to approach her.

This lady had better form than many people who have shot for 10 years totally by accident, her front arm and stance and draw length and nose on the string and anchor and posture were awesome, the one thing that I didn't like was her grip but I totally decided to save that for last because I know that once you give somebody direction on something it is on their mind the rest of the session and then it is hard to focus on other things without some of their mental focus being wasted on the first thing you showed them.

So at this point I hadn't lectured her on form because hers was more than acceptable because it would have been more info for her to process, I went right into what it meant to shoot a surprise release and I demonstrated them to her and I let her shoot by pulling the trigger and seeing that she was just pulling the trigger. Then I showed her how to shoot with back tension, She had already noticed that I was shooting the center of a 5-spot ring every time i shot the bow and she had been shooting some of my old vegas and 5-spot targets for a few days and I used this to tell her that you know what? I didn't always shoot this good, I told her that she had good form and to be patient and learn how to fire her release and with some time spent training she could then start to see here shooting tighten up and be something awesome.

We shot for a while together and I gave her feed back and then the last thing I did that day was show here the proper grip on the bow, now to me 4 years ago if I had been in the shop and this person came in my instruction would have been totally different and absolutely not advanced.


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## cbrunson (Oct 25, 2010)

RCR_III said:


> Archery is not a universal sport, because it works with your body and everyone's body is comprised differently. This will be a basis to get a lot of different answers, or similar answers based on different principles.


This ^^^^^

If it were as simple as just doing what so and so does, more people would be successful at it. That of course is determined by your definition of success though. If you had to break it down to "universal", it would have to be as generic as simply holding and releasing consitently, because most guys are going to get to that end result in different ways. I do it different than erdman does. Does that mean I think he does it wrong? Certainly not. He is very good. He gives an offering of what he has done to get there, and I give an offering of what I have done. You just have to decide for yourself, if any of those offerings may work better for you.


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## Lazarus (Sep 19, 2005)

pwyrick said:


> I guess I'm reading that there are as ron w says "universally accepted fundamentals": stance, bow side, release side, anchor, etc. And, they need to be repeatable. In my opinion, there are some styles that are superior to others for the shooter that wants to reach their best. I'm not trying to start a "my dogs bigger than your dog" thread, but I am very interested in why some of you think a particular "fundamental" position supports growth for the shooter. So, what are the universal fundamentals that you think belong in a shot process? I'm wondering not just "stance" but what stance (or any other fundamental) helps you be your best, and would you encourage others to adopt that position as fundamental to their shot process? Now there are exceptions to the rules. I think Reo Wilde has some positions that work for him, but I would never try teach them to others as a universal. Hope what I'm looking for makes sense.


That is exactly what those of us who think in terms of Intermediate and Advanced are trying to say; You have to find your own shot! 

I can instruct people in the very basics of how to shoot a bow. But I _cannot_ you might even say *will* not instruct people to shoot exactly like I do. Why? Because that's an impossibility. If you want to excel at this game you simply have to put in the time to find those "tweaks" that make your shot your shot!

Last, I'm going to give you an example of something. I shoot a totally straight wrist. Very little contact on the riser. The bow actually sets in the web between my thumb and index finger. For me I find this to be far superior to absolutely any other "grip" style. Overall, I believe it is the best "grip" position period. Do I recommend it? No way. Why? One, because it takes a lot of work to build into this grip style. Most people aren't willing to do the work to build into it. Two, most people don't "believe" it to be superior, thus you are fighting a mental battle right off the bat with people. Three, nobody is built exactly like me. Therefore, I just keep my mouth shut about it. In fact, this may be the first time I've ever mentioned it on any forum, just because those who know the "fundamentals" will probably start a p!ss!n match over it. But in MY mind it is the most superior style grip there is. 

So why am I making this post? To once again say; You have to find YOUR shot! To take it one step further, you have to find the little intricacies in each of the basic areas of your shot that make you shoot your best. I am totally convinced that belief in this concept is the most important attribute you must posses if you are going to excel at this game. As always.......my view.


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## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

I like what you just said Lazurus, Finding my own shot to hang my hat on is something that I am really proud of right now and it is the first time I have ever been able to say that. In the past I always had some little issue that I was aware of that I basically ignored or justified even though I knew it was hurting me. Some of those issues were only known to me and I hid them from everyone else and some of them were known by my buddies. 

What really has helped me is that I have a personality that guys once they get to know me feel free to give me crap and make fun and have a good time, it is also a personality that my local pro shooters feel like they can flat tell me exactly what I need to hear instead of keeping it to themselves. Thank god for my personality because those two guys Sam and Blake are the main reason that I became aware of many of my issues that need attacked. It wasn't over night, both of them told me things and then I ignored and was hard headed and months went by and just because I dropped a hundred bucks on a hinge hadn't helped but they continued to look me in the face and tell me exactly what I needed to hear. Last year it helped to watch sam shoot a stinking 60 x every freaking week at the league and podium at presleys and win a car at yankton and win the known 50 multiple times and shooter of the year honors. It is easier to listen when I guy is that freaking good but seriously breaking through the lessons to be learned they had told me lead me to make the decision to tackle and quit ignoring the other little issues that I was hiding inside myself.

Did I mention I am now able to enjoy my shooting more right now than ever before?


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

Well, I didn't mean to say "fundamentals" were concrete hard. It's a starting block and adjustable per individual and all may have subtle changes as we get "deeper" into shooting. It's our shot, not someone else's.....


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## cbrunson (Oct 25, 2010)

Well said Lazarus. I think a lot of this fundamental precision talk comes from the misconception generated when certain individuals impress the masses with a bazillion word post explaining every detail of what is required to shoot just like a pro. There are different personality types that come into play here. Some guys need to believe everything on there set up is perfect down to the exact length of the D-loop, and others just play it by feel. Ultimately it comes down to confidence in your shot, with mental and physical endurance. 

Then add tournament pressure.


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## rohpenguins (Dec 2, 2012)

Brilliant on the Basics..... If you want to be great at anything you have to have to be brilliant on the basics. The OP was only asking for a list of what we in AT land consider to be essential in the shot process from cradle to grave. Can everyone post the one thing that they feel has to included on any list to be a solid archer..... the list should only be maybe 10 items long because its basic. of those 10 items there could be 100 sub categories under each one any of those could have an individualized process. 

I think good footwork is a must.


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## Lazarus (Sep 19, 2005)

rohpenguins said:


> Brilliant on the Basics..... If you want to be great at anything you have to have to be brilliant on the basics. The OP was only asking for a list of what we in AT land consider to be essential in the shot process from cradle to grave. Can everyone post the one thing that they feel has to included on any list to be a solid archer..... the list should only be maybe 10 items long because its basic. of those 10 items there could be 100 sub categories under each one any of those could have an individualized process.
> 
> I think good footwork is a must.


Be a good topic for General Archery. :wink: But I will comply...............bow arm.


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## rohpenguins (Dec 2, 2012)

I agree but its what the OP was asking for.


Lazarus said:


> Be a good topic for General Archery. :wink: But I will comply...............bow arm.


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## Rick! (Aug 10, 2008)

rohpenguins said:


> Brilliant on the Basics..... If you want to be great at anything you have to have to be brilliant on the basics. The OP was only asking for a list of what we in AT land consider to be essential in the shot process from cradle to grave. Can everyone post the one thing that they feel has to included on any list to be a solid archer..... the list should only be maybe 10 items long because its basic. of those 10 items there could be 100 sub categories under each one any of those could have an individualized process.
> 
> I think good footwork is a must.


Devote enough time to create and practice a form that produces the best "hold" for you. Keep a detailed log of your form practice/training to reflect on for evaluation of performance after intentional changes.


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## cbrunson (Oct 25, 2010)

rohpenguins said:


> Brilliant on the Basics..... If you want to be great at anything you have to have to be brilliant on the basics. The OP was only asking for a list of what we in AT land consider to be essential in the shot process from cradle to grave. Can everyone post the one thing that they feel has to included on any list to be a solid archer..... the list should only be maybe 10 items long because its basic. of those 10 items there could be 100 sub categories under each one any of those could have an individualized process.
> 
> I think good footwork is a must.


A bow. You must have a bow.


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

cbrunson said:


> A bow. You must have a bow.


Now, that's unfair, naming something we need


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## aread (Dec 25, 2009)

The old school basic fundamentals:

-Balance - including stance & alignment
-bow hand
-release hand
-anchors - both on your face and on the target
-full draw position
-follow through and conclusion

Everybody's got to do these and just about everybody does them differently.

Of course there are a "few details" in addition to these, but these are the fundamental things that make up an archery shot. The better and more consistently we do these, the better we will shoot.

Allen


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## rn3 (Jan 4, 2008)

Lazarus said:


> Be a good topic for General Archery. :wink: But I will comply...............bow arm.


I have to agree, without a strong steady bow arm, there is no way to be a consistent 60x shooter no matter how conscious or sub-conscious you execute your shot.


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