# To Tilt or not to Tilt?



## jkm97 (Jul 8, 2004)

I'm no expert, but I cant very slightly. I started out shooting urpight, like I did with a compound, but overtime I developed a slight cant and I seem to get more consistent groups that way, especially at unknown ranges. For me, it seems to give me a tad better sight picture. Try both for awhile, and see if you can tell any real difference. Whichever way you end up, you should do you final tuning the same way...though a perfectly tuned arrow will likely fly the same regardless.


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## KennyO (Feb 5, 2003)

I started with a vertical bow. After reading become the arrow I started canting to get the arrow under my eye as Byron ferguson suggests. Both ways will work as long as you are consistent. I found a small cant of a few inches is comfortable for me and helps alignment. Target archers go vertical mostly. For hunting learning to shoot with various amounts of cant can be beneficial in getting a shot off.


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## centershot (Sep 13, 2002)

First thing you need to do is get a book called "Shooting the Stickbow". Second thing is to read it. Seriously, it sounds like your getting lots of info (some good, some bad) already - use this book as your base and it will explain why as well as get you pointed in the right direction before too many bad habits become ingrained. It's $20 on Amazon, best money I ever spent on Trad.


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## patrick2cents (Jan 26, 2014)

I can shoot either way, but for some reason my horizontal spread gets a little better with a slight cant. I think it is because I have a fairly hard strike "plate" (it's more like a strike line) and I get better consistancy when gravity holds it more positively against it on release. But how your arm is rotated and how your back is tensioned are more important than how vertical your bow is (though you must be consistent).


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## pacnate (Sep 23, 2009)

Thanks guys and I'll probably be ordering a few books this weekend. I'll try both ways


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## Bill 2311 (Jun 24, 2005)

The purpose of tilting the bow is to align your dominant eye so that it is directly above the arrow shaft. Also many find it feels best as the natural position of the wrist is with a slight turn as you extend our arm out in front of you.
There is not "best" way. Try different holding and anchoring positions until you find the one that works best for you.


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## centershot (Sep 13, 2002)

pacnate said:


> Thanks guys and I'll probably be ordering a few books this weekend. I'll try both ways


You won't regret it. At this point (being a newbe) I suggest that you shoot with a vertical bow. It is easier to repeat and shooting a trad bow accurately is all about being consistent.


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## Captainkirk (Sep 18, 2014)

Bill 2311 said:


> The purpose of tilting the bow is to align your dominant eye so that it is directly above the arrow shaft. Also many find it feels best as the natural position of the wrist is with a slight turn as you extend our arm out in front of you.
> There is not "best" way. Try different holding and anchoring positions until you find the one that works best for you.


^^^^^^^^^^THIS^^^^^^^^^^^
is what I'm finding to be the truth WRT Trad archery. Read the books, watch the vids and absorb...and then adapt what works for you. Everybody's body, vision and muscle structure is different. Know the theory behind the rules then adapt it to you.


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## slowbowjoe (Jun 7, 2014)

I most often prefer to can't ("tilt") my bow. Will hold vertical for some shot situations, and will also cant quite a bit for others. I'm mostly stump shooting, and practicing for hunting shots, where shooting from varied positions is common.

Best book I can recommend (and I'm still learning) is The Bowhunters Handbook, by TJ Conrads.


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## Nekekal (Dec 25, 2012)

As a novice, I was told that a little cant of the bow would make it easier to keep the arrow on the shelf and against the bow. This is true but is just covering up a number of other problems like string fitting too tightly in the nock. As an instinctive shooter I don't need nor want to see the arrow so there seemed little reason not to have the bow vertical.

One problem I did have with tilting the bow was that it was difficult to get the same tilt every time. It is hard to get vertical also but gravity helps a little on that. So I now strive for vertical.

Good luck.


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## Easykeeper (Jan 2, 2003)

I shoot my recurves with a very slight cant. When my bow hand and forearm are most relaxed the bow naturally rotates slightly clockwise (I'm right handed), but only a few degrees. 

I don't think it matters as long as you do whatever you do consistently. Anything too far from vertical and I think it becomes harder to repeat the angle every shot.


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## sheepdogreno (Sep 29, 2014)

I cant the bow mainly to free my dominant eye...I also want to keep everything but the target out of my vision....for some reason I can't hold tight groups vertical. I start by setting my feet,bend at waist,draw bow,and then the tilt falls in place. This is what works for me and that's a!l I care about


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## GEREP (May 6, 2003)

Bill 2311 said:


> The purpose of tilting the bow is to align your dominant eye so that it is directly above the arrow shaft...



This has always been the conventional wisdom regarding the reason for canting, but I have to be honest, I don't really understand it.


Whether you shoot with a completely vertical bow, or whether you cant the bow, the angle of the head and shoulders (depicted in red) should always remain constant in relation to the bow/string. If the angles remain constant, the relation of the dominant eye to the arrow is going to remain the same. 









The only way to change the relationship of the dominant eye to the bow/string, is to have the head and shoulders remain vertical while the bow is canted. 









If this is the case, now you introduce all sorts of potential torqueing issues. 

KPC


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## j.conner (Nov 12, 2009)

I do not cant the bow and do not recommend it unless the bow obstructs your view of the target. I think canting mostly came from longbows with little or no sight window. I also think the cant mostly comes from hunching over to get the eye over the arrow.

At short distances it probably does not matter, but I have always wondered if the cant sends arrows to the right at greater distances.

I would also note that many top barebow archers use the riser and string blur as part of their aiming references. You would not want to cant there as it would be like tilting your sight.


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## Azzurri (Mar 10, 2014)

I agree with j.conner. Longbow people without sight windows cant to get the riser out of the line of sight for aiming. If you have a recurve with a sight window, it shouldn't be necessary to line up the shot or keep the arrow put. Also, if you shoot outdoor target archery at adult distances you can watch cant push an arrow during flight in the direction of the tilt. It doesn't show up much at 10-20 and that's what most people shoot and why they won't care. But at distances of 40 or beyond if the bow is not lined up right up and down, or right to left (I was taught to check my string against the riser to make sure the bow was lined up forwards on the same plane each time.....you think you drew and aimed the same, but you actually turned the bow.....kind of what he's saying about barebow aiming), you're going to push an otherwise well shot arrow in the direction of the tilt. These are the sort of little things that spread arrows out or send them awry. You might be able to get pretty good doing it but when you wonder why the arrows won't all go perfect in the 5, well, maybe you tilt different each arrow, maybe the tilting affects the forces on some shots, etc.


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## Azzurri (Mar 10, 2014)

Stickbow is a good book. I have a few that are pretty useless if you have taken lessons. A sleeper of a book is Ki Sik Lee's Total Archery, which is Olympic-"canted" but has lots of form discussion and pictures (most of which will go over your head in so much detail). But Stickbow is endlessly useful because it's so comprehensive. The only minus on Stickbow is some parts read/look a little dated, equipment from a few years ago. But 98% of it is timeless useful advice, and that 98% overwhelms by far any other resource out there. You might look at x book for competition skills/psychology, y book for something else specific, but Stickbow just covers a ton.


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## 4nolz (Aug 17, 2011)

If you cant your bow cant your head.It helps me in hunting/tree stand shooting.If you gap or whatever you might be better vertical like a target archer.


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## GEREP (May 6, 2003)

Azzurri said:


> I agree with j.conner. Longbow people without sight windows cant to get the riser out of the line of sight for aiming.


Again, while I understand that has been the old wive's tale, I think it's just that...an old wive's tale.

If the angle of the head and shoulders stay on plane with the string and bow (which they should), no more of the target is actually *opened* up. 

A different part of the target is *covered* up, but no more of the bullseye is visible.









The only way to *open up* the sight picture by canting the bow is to do so while leaving the head and shoulders on a vertical plane. If you do that, you'll have a whole host of other issues.

KPC


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## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

GEREP said:


> This has always been the conventional wisdom regarding the reason for canting, but I have to be honest, I don't really understand it.
> 
> 
> Whether you shoot with a completely vertical bow, or whether you cant the bow, the angle of the head and shoulders (depicted in red) should always remain constant in relation to the bow/string. If the angles remain constant, the relation of the dominant eye to the arrow is going to remain the same.
> ...


Now you need to draw some eyes on that head and it may help you understand Kev.

I'm in full agreement with Bill2311...and would add that not only does the cant get the arrow centered under my eye?...but it also provides for a cleaner string path and clearance unto my cheek (which is also angled)..seems to reduce plucking and pulling them too the left off the side of my face and?...just feels cleaner and more natural to me all the way around.

Now those who've spent eons practicing straight up Oly based target form will argue this until the cows come home and leave again...but I won't change either. :laugh:


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## Hank D Thoreau (Dec 9, 2008)

Okay, so I am one of the folks that shoots a longbow using target form. I do not cant unless it is inadvertent. In order to shoot without canting I need a bow and set of wood arrows that will cooperate so that I can put the arrows on the center line. I did not have that with my Samick SLB. It took my best form to shoot straight. I finally relented and canted, but not to get my eye over the arrow, rather to take some of the paradox and shift it from the horizontal to the vertical axis. Once the arrow is consistently on the center line, I could adjust the height to put the arrow where I wanted it to go. Then it just came down to consistent execution to keep the arrows going there. When I got my Falco Trophy longbow, I found that I was finally able to put arrows consistently on the center line without canting, as long as I executed reasonably well. I no longer had to shoot my best shot. Not sure if this was a tuning issue, bow fit issue, or both.


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## GEREP (May 6, 2003)

JINKSTER said:


> Now you need to draw some eyes on that head and it may help you understand Kev.


I'd be glad to JINKS. 

Lets assume a right hand shooter, with a dominant right eye. 

With a the bow vertical, the dominant eye (green) is right above the arrow (blue). When you can't the bow, and keep the same angle with head and shoulders, the dominant right eye (green) is no longer above the arrow (blue). 









It's not until you cant the bow, and keep the head and shoulders vertical, that the dominant right eye (green) is back above the arrow (blue) again.









However, now you have potential torqueing issues that you didn't have before.

KPC


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## GEREP (May 6, 2003)

Hey JINKS, I just thought of something. You just quit smoking didn't you?

Maybe that "get your dominant eye above the arrow" by canting thing does work for you.











KPC


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## Captainkirk (Sep 18, 2014)

I think it helps for weirdos like me who are right-handed and left eye dominant.
I can't shoot without closing my left eye (dominant eye) or it "takes over" and pushes my right eye down the stairs like the crippled kid on crutches. So I'm shooting a true 2D sight picture, and canting the bow seems to clear the field of vision a little more. Plus, I do it purposely to train myself for hunting situations where you might be kneeling or sitting and ground clearance becomes an issue.


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## pacnate (Sep 23, 2009)

I think honestly one of my biggest issues with getting the bow straight vertical is that my face gets in the way of the string being drawn. When I tilt the bow some I seem to be able to keep my head still. When I'm trying to stay vertical, my head is forced to move and settle back in once I get the string back to where I'm consistently anchored. Maybe that makes sense. But then I have the issue with "when my head moves, my target "moves""
I used to play baseball and was a pitcher, and one of my key concepts was always head movement and it forcing the target to move in the mind. This seems to matter here as well shooting instinctively.

Thanks for all the great comments.


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## GEREP (May 6, 2003)

Let's take a look at an actual human being. 

I hope JParanee doesn't mind, but his was the first picture I could find to illustrate my point.

Note in the picture below, JP is shooting with a vertical bow and stance. Take special note of the position of his eye and his sight picture.









Now look at JP shooting with a "canted bow." Take special note of the position of his eye and his sight picture.









Notice that the dominant eye/sight picture do not change. 

It's not until you realize that these are the same pictures, and the vertical stance version has just been rotated upward, that you understand that you don't actually cant the bow at all. All you are doing is bending at the waist, and all aspects of "form" remain the same. When done properly, the relationship of the head and shoulders to the bow and string remain the same.

Proper form is proper form, whether your sitting, standing, kneeling or leaning.

If you are actually changing your sight picture, or the position of your dominant eye in relation to your arrow, you are in effect changing your alignment and will torque the string.

KPC


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## Paul_J (Jul 16, 2013)

I cant a little bit just to insure that the arrow stays on the shelf as I draw. I shoot mostly Hill style bows and it's an issue.


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## Mo0se (Sep 24, 2002)

I think the whole thing started with too much bow weight as it feels differently than vertical, at full draw.


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## Mo0se (Sep 24, 2002)

GEREP said:


> Let's take a look at an actual human being.
> 
> I hope JParanee doesn't mind, but his was the first picture I could find to illustrate my point.
> 
> ...


The first pic is not vertical..look at the trees.


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## GEREP (May 6, 2003)

Mo0se said:


> The first pic is not vertical..look at the trees.


No kidding. 

As I clearly said, I rotated the picture in order to show that even if he were to be shooting vertically, the relationship between his head, shoulders and bow would remain the same. 

Good form is good form. You don't really can't the bow, you bend at the waist. That is if you're doing it correctly. 

KPC


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## Captainkirk (Sep 18, 2014)

GEREP said:


> Good form is good form. You don't really can't the bow, you bend at the waist. That is if you're doing it correctly. KPC


Now that you mention it, I've never paid any attention. I guess it's nice to have a spotter with you to point out when your form/release, etc. goes bad. When you're concentrating on target you don't notice.


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## pacnate (Sep 23, 2009)

That's a good point. So ACTUALLY....I shouldn't be canting with my wrist. I should be canting with my waist if I'm going to do it?


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## Sanford (Jan 26, 2009)

Mo0se said:


> I think the whole thing started with too much bow weight as it feels differently than vertical, at full draw.


I see that many folks who cant and lean do so because they cannot operate to a full draw with the bow and body upright. Basically, they accommodate their body and strive for leverage to fit the furthest they can muster pulling the bow comfortably. Although form goes out the window, I have a very long draw and so similar when test shooting selfbows/backed-bows I don't want to overstress and can shoot and keep my total draw around 26".


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## Viper1 (Aug 21, 2003)

pecnate - 

It may be a good point, but it's just not true. "Canting" can happen at the waist, shoulder, wrist and even the hand.
Each has their own strong and weak points and limitations to maintain shoulder geometry and balance. Surpassing those limits is what causes form to deteriorate.

That being said, a new shooter should always start with a vertical bow, as it's the easiest to reproduce. Once form has been established, then canting becomes an option. 

Most of the guys I hear taking about "bowhunters" having to shoot from any position are usually the ones who have never mastered the basics. But then again, if Howard Hill could do it, it has to be right, no?

Viper1 out.


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## GEREP (May 6, 2003)

Viper1 said:


> "Canting" can happen at the waist, shoulder, wrist and even the hand.


Sure it *"can,"* but if the rest of you (head, shoulders, draw hand, etc.) doesn't move with it, you've got trouble.









You can contort yourself in any number of different ways, but that doesn't make it good form, or conducive to consistent shooting.

KPC


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## Roger Savor Sr (Feb 16, 2014)

I've actually have never seen a shred of evidence to support the theory that canting aligns the eye with the string/shaft. Furthermore, I don't normally cant, shooting perfectly vertical and my eye is aligned to the string/shaft. What canting does do is open the sight picture for a clearer view, which may prove beneficial to many archers, but that's it.


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## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

GEREP said:


> I'd be glad to JINKS.
> 
> Lets assume a right hand shooter, with a dominant right eye.
> 
> ...


Potential Torquing Issue's?...nah...not here.


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## Aronnax (Nov 7, 2013)

I'm jumping in a bit late here- I read the first couple of posts when this thread was new but didn't pay much attention to it again until now.

The sight window on my bow is cut in at a mostly straight line until it hits the arrow shelf, which isn't much of a shelf to begin with. I cant my bow just enough for the sight window to be vertical. And yes, with large gaps that kind of "window", if you can call it that, can obscure a lot of the bull's eye with a vertical bow. IF you are point on, then yeah, it doesn't make any difference. 

But, if you are rotating the bow about the axis of the arrow, and provided you are not twisting or torquing the string with your drawing hand (the angle of your string hand has to match the angle of the bow hand), what difference does it make? The arrow/eye relationship doesn't change.

I'm not proposing anyone should shoot like the Greyarcher but he's a pretty big proponent of a really open stance and cant for instinctive shooting, but his justifications for adopting that style are interesting-





BM


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## GEREP (May 6, 2003)

Roger Savor Sr said:


> I've actually have never seen a shred of evidence to support the theory that canting aligns the eye with the string/shaft. Furthermore, I don't normally cant, shooting perfectly vertical and my eye is aligned to the string/shaft. What canting does do is open the sight picture for a clearer view, which may prove beneficial to many archers, but that's it.


I agree Roger. Even the *"open the sight picture"* claim is a bit of a misnomer in my opinion. Canting the bow might well open one part of the target, but only at the cost of covering another.









KPC


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## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

Here's one I did awhile back...uploaded..posted...dele ted and just uploaded again just for this thread...I did another (bout just "canting") where I showed how the arrow rolls under my eye but this is the one I spoke my mind about cant and grip....hope you enjoy and L8R, Bill. :cool2:


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## MGF (Oct 27, 2012)

My bow doesn't rotate to the right after the shot. You're index finger shouldn't be doing anything.

Jinks, are you sure that guy didn't have a bow quiver weighting down the right side of his bow?


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## Joe Hohmann (Oct 24, 2013)

I don't understand "helps see the target better". All I need to see is the X in the bullseye, which I can certainly see when vertical. In fact, I can see the entire paper target when my bow is vertical. Hunting in the bush is, I assume, another matter.


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## MGF (Oct 27, 2012)

A vertical bow works fine for hunting too. Ask Jimmy Blackmon.


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## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

MGF said:


> My bow doesn't rotate to the right after the shot. You're index finger shouldn't be doing anything.
> 
> Jinks, are you sure that guy didn't have a bow quiver weighting down the right side of his bow?


In all honesty?...yes...he did...and I asked him (suggested) the same so...he took it off and got the same results but here's the thing...

I've noticed this of many folks...granted...I see it less often for those who use thumb slings and/or shoot very high wristed but the grip geometry and mechanics of which I speak are reality in my world...matter fact?...there's not a single good reason I could think of for shooting my bows straight up...side mounted quiver or not.

I get a much better (unobscured) full field view of my target...excellent "string path/face" clearance...awesome eye too arrow alignment...and a solid linear shot reaction from my bows...and for huge bonus points?...it all comes....."naturally ingrained". 

I'm not looking to change anyone else...just explaining why and how I believe it works for me. YMMV. 

L8R, Bill. :cool2:


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## MGF (Oct 27, 2012)

I hoot with my bow vertical because I shoot better that way.

I'm not trying to change anybody either. We could come up with a long list of good archers who shoot/shot with a canted bow.


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## GEREP (May 6, 2003)

JINKSTER said:


> I get a much better (unobscured) full field view of my target...excellent "string path/face" clearance...awesome eye too arrow alignment...and a solid linear shot reaction from my bows...and for huge bonus points?...it all comes....."naturally ingrained".


JINKS:

Just so we're on the same page, could you describe or explain what you mean by *"awesome eye to arrow alignment?" * When you cant, where is your eye in relation to your arrow, how does that help you and your sight picture, and how is it different than if you were to shoot with a vertical bow?

Thanks,

KPC


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## Chris1ny (Oct 23, 2006)

I tilt when I shoot instinctive with the recurve. I broke 2 nocks yesterday from arrows hitting each other. 

Fred Asbell is my hero!


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## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

GEREP said:


> JINKS:
> 
> Just so we're on the same page, could you describe or explain what you mean by *"awesome eye to arrow alignment?" * When you cant, where is your eye in relation to your arrow, how does that help you and your sight picture, and how is it different than if you were to shoot with a vertical bow?
> 
> ...


NP Kev...but if a pictures worth 1,000 words?...a vid must be worth at least 100,000...so...I'm re-uploading that one now entitled "Why I Cant My Bow"....should be up here in about 30 minutes or so...if nothing else?....maybe it will help you understand me more and why I like it.


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## Mo0se (Sep 24, 2002)

Chris1ny said:


> I tilt when I shoot instinctive with the recurve. I broke 2 nocks yesterday from arrows hitting each other.
> 
> Fred Asbell is my hero!


Now thats funny...


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## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

Mo0se said:


> Now thats funny...


It isn't when you realize he lives in the Bronx and this is his only post in the traditional forum.


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## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

Okay Kev....here ya go...why I like to cant my bow....


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## patrick2cents (Jan 26, 2014)

Viper1 said:


> p
> But then again, if Howard Hill could do it, it has to be right, no?
> 
> Viper1 out.


Now that's funny...


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## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

patrick2cents said:


> Now that's funny...


Why is it funny to mock a deceased man who's feats and promotion of the sport of archery are legendary?...please help me understand that...because to me?....

That's like listening to the big mouth at the local batting boxes put down Babe Ruth because he plays..."The Fast Pitch" :laugh:


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## Sanford (Jan 26, 2009)

JINKSTER said:


> Why is it funny to mock a deceased man who's feats and promotion of the sport of archery are legendary?...please help me understand that...because to me?....
> 
> That's like listening to the big mouth at the local batting boxes put down Babe Ruth because he plays..."The Fast Pitch" :laugh:


I don't think Hill was the butt of that joke. But, defending the honor of archery heroes of days past sure can open the door for a new one.


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## patrick2cents (Jan 26, 2014)

JINKSTER said:


> Why is it funny to mock a deceased man who's feats and promotion of the sport of archery are legendary?...please help me understand that...because to me?....
> 
> That's like listening to the big mouth at the local batting boxes put down Babe Ruth because he plays..."The Fast Pitch" :laugh:


I don't think anyone is making fun of the man, but the folks to blindly try to copy him believing that is the pathway to success. I see this a lot in some of my other hobbies (motorcycling and mountain biking). You get guys who want the exact same set-up as racer "x", not understanding that it's a race bike (and probably difficult to ride for most average joe's) and the rider is of stupendous skill, and their set-up won't necessarily translate into my success.


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## GEREP (May 6, 2003)

JINKSTER said:


> NP Kev...but if a pictures worth 1,000 words?...a vid must be worth at least 100,000...


Thanks JINKS. Yep, a picture is worth a thousand words.

Here's the thing. I know why you said you like to cant, and what you think it does in terms of moving the arrow under your eye, and the string away from your face. However, the screen capture shows that your head and shoulders are on the same plane as the bow. Same as if you were to hold your bow vertically. 

Nothing rotated on a radius away from your face like you said in the video. If it did, the red and yellow line would not be parallel. It might indeed work for you, and you might indeed prefer it, but in my opinion, it's not doing what you think it's doing.









Whether you realize it or not, you are indeed using "vertical" form, you are just bending at the waist.









I think if you watch your "snap shot" closely, you will realize that the reason you aren't making any contact with your nose and face is that by the time your fingers get to your face, you string is gone. You are dropping the string before you get to where you think your anchor is. In other words, your short drawing.

KPC


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## 4nolz (Aug 17, 2011)

Gerep-go punch yourself in the balls.You should know better.:0


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## rattus58 (Jul 9, 2007)

pacnate said:


> That is the question!! I'm a beginning trad archer, but I've been told to tilt the bow some (as a righty, to the right on top) and I've been told to hold straight up and down....? Any pros and cons of each method or recommendations?


i TILT when I have to.... and that usually is to see the game clearly and or because of brush or whatnot.


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## Hank D Thoreau (Dec 9, 2008)

I can't cant
I just can't slant
But if I could slant, I would cant
This is the end
Of my bow slant cant rant


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## grantmac (May 31, 2007)

I shoot a vertical bow. Doesn't matter if it's a bottom weighted metal ILF with plunger and rest, or a cut outside center longbow or a selfbow. Vertical is more consistent and window shape does nothing to change how much of the target is visible for me.

I will only cant to get limb clearance if 100% necessary and at close range, but that might be less than 1 shot in 1000.


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## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

GEREP said:


> Thanks JINKS. Yep, a picture is worth a thousand words.
> 
> Here's the thing. I know why you said you like to cant, and what you think it does in terms of moving the arrow under your eye, and the string away from your face. However, the screen capture shows that your head and shoulders are on the same plane as the bow. Same as if you were to hold your bow vertically.
> 
> ...


Well Kev?...you're certainly entitled to your opinions...and while I'd have to agree that my 56 year old upper body itself has developed about a 5 degree natural tilt forward over 1/2 a lifetime of leaning into cnc milling centers...over bar tops and riding sport bikes? LOL!.....I vehemently disagree with you on pretty much all counts claimed and depicted...starting with the last claim first...as I have "Watched My Snap Shot Closely"...many times over...(so has the rest of the net! LOL!)...close-ups from the side at that...and my string gets dropped when the tip of my gloved index finger hits the corner of my mouth...with video proof that it's "my trigger" when snapping.

And now onto discussing (and reviewing) your KPC enhanced screen capture pic...and while I agree your drawn lines are in fact inline with the angle of my bow?....(great job btw)...it seems to me that they are most definitely drawn in such a way as to support your stated claims and not even close to being accurately representative of my actual head and body position...for instance...see how your red line starts almost at the right side of my face but is then directed towards the center of my waistline?....and then how your yellow line centers my head but then vectors towards my rear belt loop?....so I saved your image and did a little artwork of my own...and who'd of thought that my Jarhead high and tight flat-top buzz cut would serve as a great foundation for a baseline angle?....LOL!....which it most certainly does and both enhances and demonstrates how your lines exhibit a severe bias towards the "acute/obtuse" as it relates to my head and body position unto my bow...it might also be noted that the intersection between my lines are dang near dead square...and for a color?...I chose "True Blue" :laugh:










Now I will say this...I appreciate what you've done here as you are a very smart individual (although 4nolz may disagree at the moment. LOL!) and I'll even admit to enjoying the elevated level of rhetorical challenge you so often times present to me because I'd like to think that sometimes?...it helps us both...for me here?...comparing your lines...(which very accurately depict my bows cant angle)...and my lines....(which accurately depict my head and body position)...it appears to me (by eye) that I'm using approximately a 15 degree cant (give or take a couple degrees)...but by now?...I might imagine you're beginning to believe that 4nolz advice might be a valid option. :laugh:

Have a great day Kev and Thanks again, Bill. :cool2:


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## 4nolz (Aug 17, 2011)

Its a running joke jinster


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## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

One other little clip I saw just a few months back...*(Which I found extremely interesting as it relates too the topic of canting)*...was the "Shoot-Off/Tie-Breaker" that took place at the 2014 IBO World Championship between Dewayne Martin and Ryan Ramsey...and while I've never met either of these fine archers in person?...I know that Dewayne is as great of a person as he is an archer and apparently?...Ryan Ramsey is a world class archer as well...but what blew my mind was not just the differences in equipment?....where Dewayne no doubt was armed with a top shelf recurve and comp level target gear?...Ryans "Gloved String Hand" was wielding what appears to be a Hybrid R/D Longbow...and I thought surely that both these fine archers were breaking ties in two different classes however at the end?...that doesn't appear to be the case...but none of that meant as much to me as observing "The Two Extremely Different Forms" these two great archers exhibited....Dewaynes was text book while Ryans form?...was apparently still VERY EFFECTIVE for him...and congrats too both...again....but for me?...It just goes to show that when it comes to good form for any particular archer?....the only thing that should be written in stone is....."The 10 Commandments" :laugh:






On a side note?...I've encountered much the same discussions taking place on Road Bike Cycling Forums....where the ultra competitive insist upon certain basic set-up aspects...such as the handlebars being set at several inches below the seat with a specified "reach distance" for better aerodynamics and increased ergonomic proficiency...yet cyclist after cyclist come to find they travel farther, faster and in much more comfort by setting their bar height level with their seat and decreasing their "reach distance" so I've concluded that often times?...what may work well for most isn't always optimum for all. 

Happy Shooting and L8R, Bill. :cool2:


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## GEREP (May 6, 2003)

"I vehemently disagree with you on pretty much all counts claimed and depicted..."

That's fine JINKS, you are entitled to that. 

One last comment in regard to your last post. You seem to think I'm suggesting that people who can't their bows can't be decent shots. That's not the case. I'm just saying that canting the bow isn't doing for you what you think it is. 

Take care. 

KPC


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## Hank D Thoreau (Dec 9, 2008)

GEREP,

I think it can also be said that Jinx is maintaining good body position when he cants. Your analysis shows it. I think we need a shot from the front. I want to see where the lower limb goes if the upper limb moves away from his face.

Jinx,

I think this is still inconclusive. You could be right but more observations are needed.


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## GEREP (May 6, 2003)

"and not even close to being accurately representative of my actual head and body position...for instance...see how your red line starts almost at the right side of my face but is then directed towards the center of my waistline?...."

For the record JINKS, the red line has nothing to do with your face, it shows the angle of the bow. The yellow line shows how your head/neck and upper body maintains the same angle as yor bow. 

I'm not quite sure what your blue line represents as it does not follow the plane of your head/neck/upper body. 

KPC


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## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

Hank D Thoreau said:


> GEREP,
> 
> I think it can also be said that Jinx is maintaining good body position when he cants. Your analysis shows it. I think we need a shot from the front. I want to see where the lower limb goes if the upper limb moves away from his face.
> 
> ...


Okay Hank...it's been awhile but I went ahead and shot a vid...it's uploading now and should be up in a few minutes.



GEREP said:


> "and not even close to being accurately representative of my actual head and body position...for instance...see how your red line starts almost at the right side of my face but is then directed towards the center of my waistline?...."
> 
> For the record JINKS, the red line has nothing to do with your face, it shows the angle of the bow. The yellow line shows how your head/neck and upper body maintains the same angle as yor bow.
> 
> ...


Hey now....What happened to....

_*"I'm just saying that canting the bow isn't doing for you what you think it is.

Take care."*_? :laugh:

Because it came at a God awful time Kev...I was just getting ready to give you some credit....not a whole lot...but nevertheless "some". 

I even wore the same shirt so you could draw more lines. 



















what do you see?


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## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

As I spoke to the camera it occurred to me that the biggest differences in my two approaches to shooting is with one?...I think about everything...from several aspects of form to dedicating a time slot to aiming and expansion where with the other approach?...I think about nothing and simply "step-out-of-myself" (so-to-speak)...look at what I want to hit and just let it happen...where I left off over 5 weeks ago was trying to take the best of both approaches...by utilizing the comfortable and natural physical aspects of my snap shooting and applying the same sequential disciplines as one might use in a competitive environment...but it's all journey and I'm enjoying my baby steps again....sometimes it's 2 steps forward and 3 steps back and other times it one step back and two steps forward...whatever makes me smile these days.


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## Matt_Potter (Apr 13, 2010)

JINKSTER said:


> Okay Hank...it's been awhile but I went ahead and shot a vid...it's uploading now and should be up in a few minutes.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I see an arrow that at other than very short distances will impact to the right. Your not matching the angle of the bow with the angle of your head. This isn't easy to be consistent with and is the main reason people recommend not canting.


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## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

Matt_Potter said:


> I see an arrow that at other than very short distances will impact to the right. Your not matching the angle of the bow with the angle of your head. This isn't easy to be consistent with and is the main reason people recommend not canting.


Hey Matt!...I was hesitant to post those pics because there's some "Where I was standing/Camera Angle" stuff going on but it's not like you don't know what you're talking about...as you most certainly do but see if you can follow me on this and decipher it....

So I quite smoking cigarettes over 5 weeks ago and have pretty much feared even picking up a bow as I figured it would act as a trigger but...enough time has passed and this thread got me going again....and after shooting enough for the pics and vid posted above?...guess what I wanted to keep on doing. 

So anyways...yeah...I lost a lot over those 5 weeks but it started flooding back to me by the end of a dozen ends or so...shooting the widow...full draw, solid anchor...hold..expand too release...and toying with the "Cant" stuff...and what seems to happens is when I hold my bow perfectly vertical?...it causes my string hand to move slightly outboard on my face...which in turn was moving my POI about 6"s left of center at 15yds....and this is when I started allowing my bow to cant but left my head what felt to be dead upright...(so KPC was correct to a degree) as what this did was opened my view of things up nicely while also getting my string hand closer inboard and the arrow more centered unto my eye...like dead centered...and that's when things really started coming back together again for me and?...felt real good.

Remember...I'm not a conscious aimer or gapper...80-90% of my focus is on the spot and maybe 10-20% is spent minding the arrows relationship to the target out of my peripheral...so seeing things like lots of bow or string blur and such between me, the target and the arrow seem to serve as more of a distraction rather than an aiming aid...anyways I quickly got back to baseball sized groups (with an occasional mess up flier) at 15yds and ended this afternoons sessions off with this nice plum sized group...










which I was thrilled with and proud enough to take and post a pic as I figure that's not to bad (for me) after not shooting for well over a month...and thanks to those who (inadvertently?  ) inspired me to getting back on the horse so to speak...Thanks all and L8R, Bill. :cool2:


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## TacticalCowboy (Oct 11, 2014)

Figure out what you like, and stick with it.


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## Tom Turgeon (Feb 7, 2014)

Wow, lots of good information. 

For what this is worth....

The "Canting the Bow" topic comes up literally in every one of my classes.... (Today's class was not an exception.) 

In my humble opinion.... 
I explain the value of canting this way:
For handles without shelves the string wants to drive the arrow _through_ the bow's handle. By canting the bow (I cant nearly 2:00 -8:00) the arrow tends to be relieved of the majority of the *archers paradox* due to the fact it is essentially being driven _over_ the handle. I have found that arrows with a wider range of spine weights can be shot from the same bow with better-than-anticipated results. 

As mentioned in previous posts, practice and consistency are key.


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## Hank D Thoreau (Dec 9, 2008)

I see from the front view is that the line of the knuckles is different between canted and uncanted, and there is no waist bend. There appeared to be a definite waist bend on the rear view. The string seems to bisect the eye and just barely clear the nose, in both positions. You can see that the sight window has rotated away from the face which appears to be related to the knuckle reorientation. So canted and uncanted are not the same. So, what does all this mean?


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## GEREP (May 6, 2003)

Tom Turgeon said:


> By canting the bow (I cant nearly 2:00 -8:00) the arrow tends to be relieved of the majority of the *archers paradox* due to the fact it is essentially being driven _over_ the handle.


Not sure I agree with this Tom. 

The flex of the arrow, caused by the lateral movement of the string coming off the fingers, is going to be the same regardless of the angle of the bow. 

Unless your can't is causing you to torque the string, the actual flex (or what some refer to as "paradox"), is going to be the same. 

KPC


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## Matt_Potter (Apr 13, 2010)

Unless your shooting a release paradox will occur every single time you release the string.


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## Matt_Potter (Apr 13, 2010)

Jinks the issue isn't canting the issue is canting exactly the same each and every shot. This is the reason folks recommend a vertical bow - it's much easier to duplicate vertical than some random angle. 

I've shot with Ryan several times and watched him shoot up close and personal. You will never see a more disciplined and controlled gap shooter. His cant is exactly and I mean EXACTLY the same every Time. 

The problem with varying your cant is you are essentially moving your rear site every time you shoot. This might work at very close range but the variation will show at longer ranges.


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## Easykeeper (Jan 2, 2003)

Tom Turgeon said:


> For handles without shelves the string wants to drive the arrow _through_ the bow's handle. By canting the bow (I cant nearly 2:00 -8:00) the arrow tends to be relieved of the majority of the *archers paradox* due to the fact it is essentially being driven _over_ the handle. I have found that arrows with a wider range of spine weights can be shot from the same bow with better-than-anticipated results.


I agree with the others, flex in the arrow as it is accelerated by the string will be the same regardless of the angle of the bow. The flex will still be at approximately 90[SUP]0[/SUP] to the bow so if you hold at 2:00-8:00 the arrow will flex in approximately a plane defined by 11:00-5:00.


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## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

Hank D Thoreau said:


> I see from the front view is that the line of the knuckles is different between canted and uncanted, and there is no waist bend. There appeared to be a definite waist bend on the rear view. The string seems to bisect the eye and just barely clear the nose, in both positions. You can see that the sight window has rotated away from the face which appears to be related to the knuckle reorientation. So canted and uncanted are not the same. So, what does all this mean?


I dunno Hank....best answer I can come up with is...."It's How Jinks Shoots?" :laugh:

But please take note of this....it was kind of difficult for me to get those pix of myself because it was hard to see orientation of stuff in my smartphone camera in "Reverse Mode" with me holding that stackmaster herters of mine at full draw and lining things up while looking into the screen from several feet away and then trying to holler the word "CAPTURE!" with a mouthful of feather! :laugh:

So some of the shot angles and viewpoints didn't come out exactly square or directly into the camera's eye so to speak and as a result?...things didn't get represented in an optimum fashion...but as I "blew the dust off" yesterday afternoon and began shooting to my hearts content for the first time in 5+ weeks?..."AFTER".....I posted the pix and video...the Herters got hung back up and I started getting serious with my widow again....and picking up where I left off...with a comfortable to me canted form yet executing with a very disciplined shot sequence as though the clicker were still on my widow....(I removed the clicker because I shot it that way for a full month...grew bored of it as in..."Okay..I got it!"....and it wasn't exactly helping my efforts to quit smoking)...but it did slow me down and discipline me...but as things fell back together with the widow last evening it seemed I was able to get right back to where I left off in about a dozen ends...effectively re-establishing my draw, form, cant, sight picture and sequence..and in doing so?....remembered one of those little things that have become ingrained (long ago) that I simply don't much think about anymore as it's just one of those things that kind of happens all on it's own...by now....LOL!....and it is how I (or at least my subconscious LOL) "KNOWS" that my cant angle is consistent...with both my herters and my widow...or any other recurve with a window that I happen to shoot...and what I do is I float/center the top corner of the risers sight window over the center of the arrow shaft...and what I believe this does is two fold...

1. It acts as my "CANT-OMETER" (yielding a consistent "cant angle" shot after shot) and?....

2. Establishes the vertical center-line framework of my sight-picture (so to speak)

like so...










Now I guess the above is open for debate (as is many things stated in these forums) but for me?...I find that the canting itself opens up my field of view giving my subconscious a cleaner and clearer visual of my arrows relationship and flight path too the spot...and I guess it's really not that much different than using..."string blur against riser"...as an alignment relationship...(like an archer who prefers a vertical hold)...but I prefer this method because it seems to present less mind clutter for me and uses the alignment of..."Bow Too Arrow"...as a relationship....sans lining up any blurs. :laugh:

So what's it all mean?...better answer?..."Probably Not Much Too Many But A Lot Too Me!" 

Thanks again for the help folks and L8R, Bill. :cool2:


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## GEREP (May 6, 2003)

At the end of the day JINKS, your perception is your reality. 

KPC


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## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

GEREP said:


> At the end of the day JINKS, your perception is your reality.
> 
> KPC


Could not the same be said for anyone's "perception" Kev?...but the way I figure?...

Anything that gives me an elevated sense of confidence in my form and execution and does so shot after shot is a good thing...with bonus points for form aspects that come natural and comfortably too me....and acceptance of others who prefer to "do it differently" and/or find comfort and confidence in such?...comes with the wisdom of knowing our minds are not all wired the same and is why...

Some folks prefer to sit right up front and close at the movie theater....with their minds and eyes bouncing all over the screen...

"So they can see it all and don't miss anything."

While others like to sit a little further back...

"So they can see it all and don't miss anything."


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## Hank D Thoreau (Dec 9, 2008)

Matt_Potter said:


> Unless your shooting a release paradox will occur every single time you release the string.


Absolutely and in the same direction relative to the bow no matter which way you rotate it. I mentioned in my earlier post that I had difficulty getting my arrows to go down the center line with my Samick SLB held vertically. I ended up canting to take some of the horizontal paradox and move it to vertical. That moved my arrows down on the target, but toward the middle. All I had to do after that was aim higher. That was a compromise after four years of trying to shoot that bow vertical. I finally got my Falco Trophy and I was able to put arrows on the center line without canting. I try to shoot the longbow as close to my recurve target form as possible with a few exceptions, most notably and obviously, a different grip. That is not to say that canting would be wrong. I just don't want to introduce a new variable that would creep into my recurve shooting.


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## JParanee (Oct 13, 2009)

I have seen good shooters that shoot both ways and I canted my whole life 

I have switched to a vertical bow these days and I find it more consistent 

If I need to cant the bow I bend at the waist now


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## DDSHOOTER (Aug 22, 2005)

If you really want to see what canting does. Put a multiple pin sight on your bow. My hat is off to anyone that can shoot long distance with a cant. 
Dan


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## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

DDSHOOTER said:


> If you really want to see what canting does. Put a multiple pin sight on your bow. My hat is off to anyone that can shoot long distance with a cant.
> Dan


My hat would be off too them as well Dan....because with a pin sight?...any canting....effectively changes the elevation setting of those pins (unless they were set at that cant angle)....matter fact?...canting my bows actually decreases and tightens up "the window distance" of my bows on a vertical plane by a slight amount.

But truth is?...I really don't notice that as it relates to aiming or visualizing my arrows flight path....but apparently I do monitor the top outside corner of my risers window (in a peripheral way) to being centered over my arrow shaft.

Another thing that most normal folks (that actually have teeth) might not be taking into consideration here is the fact that I don't have teeth....(and I refuse to wear or maintain dentures)...but I don't view this as a deficit as I believe what winds up happening is my string hand actually anchors a bit deeper into my toothless soft tissue facial features...and what I believe to be more inline with my dominant eye...and as I attempt to get solid with my anchor registering my index finger up against the bottom of my cheekbone and my curled thumb knuckle against the back of my jaw hinge point?...the deeper it goes...until it stops...and now that's my hard point anchor is...and maybe that's why I enjoy the extra clearance that canting my bows seem to afford.


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## Chris1ny (Oct 23, 2006)

The human brain is amazing, it's when we try to over think it, or over control it, that's when things don't work. If you believe it won't work you are right. If you believe it will work, you are right too. What ever you believe will always come true. I just focus on the target, and the arrow will find the way to hit exactly where I'm focus at. 

Again, my instinctive shooting hero is Fred Asbell! I'm just repeating what I've learned from him. 

Most importantly go out there shoot some arrows and have fun!


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## Tom Turgeon (Feb 7, 2014)

Paul_J said:


> I cant a little bit just to insure that the arrow stays on the shelf as I draw. I shoot mostly Hill style bows and it's an issue.


Paul_J,
Could the issue be a torqued bow?
You may want to draw into a relaxed, semi-open bow hand. Once at full draw, close your bow hand firmly, pause for a "Mississippi" and release the arrow.
I have had luck with this and instruct students with "fly-off-the-handle" or "fly-away" issues. It seems to help as the bow is not being torqued during the draw. 
I hope this helps.


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## grantmac (May 31, 2007)

The vast majority of the time issues with arrows falling off the shelf is related to a shallow hook or failure to hold to keep the hook from slipping during the draw.
I have shoot selfbows without shelf perfectly vertical 3 under without the arrows falling off the shelf, if they do it's always a lazy hook. Shooting split with a good hook you can even use a reverse cant.

Some interesting things about canting:
A slight cant can help correct a crosswind more effectively then aiming off.
When you are shooting with your feet on a side hill canting the bow slightly into the hill before drawing will tend to keep the arrows from following the slope.

-Grant


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## Windrover (Jan 6, 2012)

Matt_Potter said:


> Jinks the issue isn't canting the issue is canting exactly the same each and every shot. This is the reason folks recommend a vertical bow - it's much easier to duplicate vertical than some random angle.
> 
> I've shot with Ryan several times and watched him shoot up close and personal. You will never see a more disciplined and controlled gap shooter. His cant is exactly and I mean EXACTLY the same every Time.
> 
> The problem with varying your cant is you are essentially moving your rear site every time you shoot. This might work at very close range but the variation will show at longer ranges.


No. Actually the reason many of us cant is to keep the rear of the arrow directly under the eye. Shooting straight up moves the arrow nock off center so that the shooter can see past the string. Only way to keep the arrow aligned under the eye is to cant or use a peep. Try it.


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## Windrover (Jan 6, 2012)

GEREP said:


> This has always been the conventional wisdom regarding the reason for canting, but I have to be honest, I don't really understand it.
> 
> 
> Whether you shoot with a completely vertical bow, or whether you cant the bow, the angle of the head and shoulders (depicted in red) should always remain constant in relation to the bow/string. If the angles remain constant, the relation of the dominant eye to the arrow is going to remain the same.
> ...


Your drawings don't seem right to me. You did not draw in the arrow. In both cases the arrow nock would be offset to the right as your eye needs to clear the string to see the target (string blur). If you stay upright but cant slightly the nock can remain directly under the eye but the string and bow move right out of the way. No string blur necessary. 
Personally I shoot upright no cant with sights and upright canted barebow. The small cant necessary to get the sight picture clear down the arrow shaft causes me no trouble. I shoot both ways but prefer to look straight down the arrow. I wish to see both the arrow shaft and a fair bit of the target or animal. You can't be looking straight down the arrow as you have no peep sight.
I wish I could draw a picture. 
Also what would those torquing issues be?


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## steve morley (Dec 24, 2005)

Windrover said:


> No. Actually the reason many of us cant is to keep the rear of the arrow directly under the eye. Shooting straight up moves the arrow nock off center so that the shooter can see past the string. Only way to keep the arrow aligned under the eye is to cant or use a peep. Try it.


Many Trad shooters cant their head then the bow cant will need to follow the head angle or you run into issues, it's harder to repeat the head angle and not the bow cant. 

Most Barebow Stringwalkers shoot vertical bows and can align the arrow under the eye, I went from Longbow with a slight head/bow cant to shooting vertical Recurves gapping and now Stringwalking, it took me a while to adjust my head straight and my nose took a real beating for quite a while.


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## Windrover (Jan 6, 2012)

steve morley said:


> Many Trad shooters cant their head then the bow cant will need to follow the head angle or you run into issues, it's harder to repeat the head angle and not the bow cant.
> 
> Most Barebow Stringwalkers shoot vertical bows and can align the arrow under the eye, I went from Longbow with a slight head/bow cant to shooting vertical Recurves gapping and now Stringwalking, it took me a while to adjust my head straight and my nose took a real beating for quite a while.


What you describe is impossible. If the string is vertical and the nock directly under the eye then you are looking through the string. Not possible without x-ray vision or a peep sight. 
If the string is vertical then the string and the arrow with it it has to be moved out of line to see the target. Without a bow, take an arrow and "draw" it directly under the eye, so you can sight down the arrow like the barrel of a shotgun. Thats the sight picture I want.


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## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

In my ongoing efforts of self-observation?....I've come to realize that I DO NOT cant my head as much as I cant my bow...and for good reason....as by canting my bow?....I also cant my string hand...(so it remains square drawing unto the bow)...which then in turn matches the angle of my jawline which is naturally canted with a straight up head....and another thing that is naturally canted?....is my bow hand wrist angle...as when I just raise my bow arm straight up from my side with zero twisting of my wrist or forearm?...my wrist angle, jawline angle and string hand angle all seem to magically and NATURALLY match up in alignment with each other and?...my naturally canted bow...with ZERO conscious twisting or tilting of anything....imagine that. :laugh:

L8R, Bill.


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## GEREP (May 6, 2003)

I have to admit, I always like it when people post pics of themselves that illustrate precisely what others have been trying to convey.

The idea that canting ones bow somehow gets their gets their eye directly above the arrow...

well, see for yourselves.









KPC


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## Tracker12 (Sep 22, 2003)

pacnate said:


> That's a good point. So ACTUALLY....I shouldn't be canting with my wrist. I should be canting with my waist if I'm going to do it?


You got it!!!


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## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

GEREP said:


> I have to admit, I always like it when people post pics of themselves that illustrate precisely what others have been trying to convey.
> 
> The idea that canting ones bow somehow gets their gets their eye directly above the arrow...
> 
> ...


Well Kev?...that was a backyard photo shoot...no guarantee that camera angle was consistent unto me and my equipment...and images can be manipulated...unfortunately?...the one thing I can not illustrate is what my mind is seeing through that eye....and it's vastly different from what you have depicted with lines above...so really?...in all actuality?...the only thing folks can see for themselves is WHAT THEY SEE for themselves....the rest is just old men playing on the net. :laugh:


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## steve morley (Dec 24, 2005)

Windrover said:


> What you describe is impossible.




“The person who says something is impossible should not interrupt the person who is doing it.”

—Chinese proverb 

Happy new year


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## Sanford (Jan 26, 2009)

Definition: *Canting* - tilting; the _holding of the bow at anything other than perfectly vertical_, relative to the archer and the plane of the shooting line. It is the leaning the tip of the bow limb towards either the archer standing to your left or right while on the shooting line. Many target archers cant the bow, with varying *negative* results. It is one of the easier things to deal with.

Leaning the body and bow is just changing the plane, archer and bow, relative to vertical - such as bending at the waist. No change in sight picture.

Leaning the head and bow is a tough call - I would call it some hybrid with two variables to deal with. Head tilt and bow tilt.


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## GEREP (May 6, 2003)

I understand the whole camera angle thing JINKS, and I understand what you think you might be seeing, but my whole point was about old wives tales and false perceptions.

If your anchor point is in the corner of your mouth, your eye simply cannot be more "over" the arrow than with a vertical stance and a vertical bow.

The only way to change that is to change the plane of the bow in relation to the plane of your head and shoulders and then my friend, you've got more issues than you realize.









You're actually pretty darn consistent with those planes, they just aren't doing what you think they are.

KPC


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## Sanford (Jan 26, 2009)

GEREP said:


> You're actually pretty darn consistent with those planes, they just aren't doing what you think they are.
> 
> KPC


They are doing what many new compound shooters do - body vertical, head leaned to get eye under peep. Not saying Jinks is doing anything wrong for himself, just reiterating that canting the bow and then canting the head to match is operating with two variables, where keeping consistent with one his hard enough as it is.


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## GEREP (May 6, 2003)




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## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

GEREP said:


> You're actually pretty darn consistent with those planes, they just aren't doing what you think they are.
> 
> KPC


Okay Kev...I'll play as I'm always game for continued learning and keeping an open mind so allow me to kind of defend my reasoning here and review as follows....

Here in this 1st "Straight Up" pic please take note of...


1. how the string is directly in front of and blurring the view of my dominant right eye and that....

2. it took conscious effort on my part to twist my wrist and forearm to "get it there" and finally?....

3. Note the differences in the angle of my bow hand knuckles....both are consistent unto the bow but one took effort too (see #2 above)










now in this "Canted Pic"?....

1. The bow comes up 100% Natural for me.

2. I have a clear, uncluttered view with no string blur and?...

3. I didn't have to consciously twist or force anything to get it there....










Speaking from a former little league baseball pitchers perspective?...I believe the reason my fast ball was so fast and so consistently accurate is because I didn't have to focus on anything except my catchers mitt and executing the throw with well timed, smooth, fluid motion which in turn generated my highest ball speeds....and it was easy for me....but the moment "other aspects" were introduced into the throw?....such as side arm curves, knuckle ball sinkers and screwballs?....that's when and where speed, accuracy and consistency began to decline.

I find that for me?...the less I think about my form?...the more accurate I become...and the closer I stay to "Completely Natural Form" (i.e. "what feels right too my body and then looks right too my mind"?)....the more accuracy I attain.

Which is also why I'll probably never be real competitive at distances much beyond that of the mound too home plate. :laugh:

But I'm fine with that...it's relaxing to me.


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## steve morley (Dec 24, 2005)

JINKSTER said:


> 1. how the string is directly in front of and blurring the view of my dominant right eye and that....


It's not a distraction for me, it's more like a back sight alignment for those long range Field shots, White or Flo Yellow String works best (Oly shooters tend to use white), all you see is a little fuzz along the length of the arrow shaft. Before the Vanquish with the Moon riser I had to change the string blur for the long shots past 50y.


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## GEREP (May 6, 2003)

JINKS:

So are you saying that you are changing the planes when you cant your bow? 

If you are, you're torqueing the string. 

If not, the string will always be in the same position in relation to your dominant eye. 

If the head doesn't change with the bow, something has to give.

KPC


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## Sanford (Jan 26, 2009)

Jinks, I would only add this question for someone who is reading and trying to figure this stuff out.

If your goal is to get the string blur off eye center, away from your eye, cant the bow. Got that. If that's the goal, then, why also cant your head to follow it, as that is bringing your eye back to where you were moving away from?

If you feel more comfortable, then do it. I think from a form-nazi standpoint, that action means you are managing a bow-cant consistency factor and a head-cant consistency factor. If you left your head position alone, it would only take about half the amount of bow cant to do what you are doing by canting both.


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## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

steve morley said:


> It's not a distraction for me, it's more like a back sight alignment for those long range Field shots, White or Flo Yellow String works best (Oly shooters tend to use white), all you see is a little fuzz along the length of the arrow shaft. Before the Vanquish with the Moon riser I had to change the string blur for the long shots past 50y.


Oh trust me Steve...I'm very familiar with using all sorts of reference points...matter fact?....there was a day I used to seek them out to use as many as I could...to gain any possible competitive advantage with regards to consistent accuracy....but I just don't like to shoot like that anymore and these days?...string blur is just a distraction to me while I'm trying to use "The Force" :laugh:


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## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

Sanford said:


> Jinks, I would only add this question for someone who is reading and trying to figure this stuff out.
> 
> If your goal is to get the string blur off eye center, away from your eye, cant the bow. Got that. If that's the goal, then, why also cant your head to follow it, as that is bringing your eye back to where you were moving away from?
> 
> If you feel more comfortable, then do it. I think from a form-nazi standpoint, that action means you are managing a bow-cant consistency factor and a head-cant consistency factor. If you left your head position alone, it would only take about half the amount of bow cant to do what you are doing by canting both.


That's all good stuff and valid questions Sanford....ones I actually had to think about and sort of reverse engineer my form to answer you accurately so I could identify...

"What Natural Is"

for me...and I noticed that as well...where my head is canted along with the bow but?...not as much as the bow is....now follow me on this as this is what I had to do to come up with "what I do"....(since I don't typically "think" about it LOL!)....

Instead of policing my body into a perfectly upright posture?....(like one would do with pristine by-the-book form)...

I slump...leaving my body in a completely relaxed state and apparently?....This includes my neck.

So...if you'd like to mimic what it is my body does?.....(just to kind of follow along here and gain a better understanding)....this is what my mind/body does...all on it's own...after a lifetime of "doing things my way"....

1. In addressing the target?...as I look at it?....my body goes into auto-pilot...my feet typically spread a comfy shoulder width apart...meanwhile?...I allow my ankles, knees, hips and shoulders to naturally square themselves unto the target....(I really don't think about any of this as it seems they all know and assume their respective positions unto the target)....and all of this is done as my eyes are gazing upon the intended spot.

2. I do pay attention to my string grasp position and give a gentle tug to allow my bowhand to seat itself into the grip and keep light tension until such time I begin to raise the bow...but raising the bow is not done until....

(and here's the important head positioning part that happens on it's own...that I just discovered to answer you)

3. At this point?...with head dead square to my body...I allow my head to drop....with zero tension on any neck muscles....and I just now realized this and that there is a very defined "stop" too that dropping of the head...any more?...and I'd have to add tension and force it further downward....any less?...and I'd be supporting it with neck muscles....and now?...

4. I simple turn my dropped head until my eyes are once again fixated on the spot which is when I begin to simultaneously raise and draw my bow which is where the shot becomes reliant upon feel, string tension and muscle memory and all physical movement (and remaining shot execution) is turned over to a lower level of awareness as conscious awareness is focused on the spot and maintaining a smooth, controlled ever increasing draw and tensioning of the string until such time it liberates itself from my fingers.

So I had to think about "How I hit my form" to even explain it...but this is for instinctive snap shooting only because once I start thinking about or attempting to micro-manage all that stuff?....all bets are off and most times my shot is as well! :laugh:

There ya have it....my deepest, darkest truth that I had to dig for to answer you...best I can come up with. Happy New Years, Bill. :cool2:


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## grantmac (May 31, 2007)

steve morley said:


> “The person who says something is impossible should not interrupt the person who is doing it.”
> 
> —Chinese proverb
> 
> Happy new year


Archery Talk: where newbies tell World Champions they don't know what they are talking about.

Happy New Year Steve.


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## JParanee (Oct 13, 2009)

grantmac said:


> Archery Talk: where newbies tell World Champions they don't know what they are talking about.
> 
> Happy New Year Steve.


That is funny


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## ghostgoblin22 (May 3, 2013)

i pretty much shoot straight foward, use to cant the bow but since ive changed to 3 under, and completely straight form my groups are very good now...


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## MGF (Oct 27, 2012)

grantmac said:


> Archery Talk: where newbies tell World Champions they don't know what they are talking about.
> 
> Happy New Year Steve.


And it's free of charge!

Jinks, 

In my opinion, you don't get your string side shoulder back/around and that makes it hard to get the arrow under your eye. I think it's also why you like to "snap-shoot". Look where your string elbow is in that last set of pics...especially the canted picture.


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## steve morley (Dec 24, 2005)

Great video angle from one of the all time Barebow greats Seimandi, note vertical bow, string and arrow nock directly in line with the eye.


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## [email protected] (Jul 13, 2008)

Canting for me is the most natural way to shoot a recurve, at least for hunting distances. It takes the riser mostly out of the sight picture. Problem is the cant is harder to repeat than straight up and down. Bottom line is take the advice you can use, and discard what you can't.


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## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

grantmac said:


> Archery Talk: where newbies tell World Champions they don't know what they are talking about.
> 
> Happy New Year Steve.





JParanee said:


> That is funny





MGF said:


> And it's free of charge!


And I feel sorry that anyone would actually feel that way as the flip side of that coin?....would be a handful of national champions trying to convince a www worth of archers that there's only but one (1) correct way for everyone to properly shoot their bows and enjoy archery...so I don't think either one of those ideologies are good ones...leastways not for the support and promotion of archery as a whole....just thinking out loud here. 



MGF said:


> Jinks,
> 
> In my opinion, you don't get your string side shoulder back/around and that makes it hard to get the arrow under your eye. I think it's also why you like to "snap-shoot". Look where your string elbow is in that last set of pics...especially the canted picture.


Well that could be....I have wide shoulders and short arms to the point that I am PHYSICALLY UNABLE and CAN NOT do the "shoulder touch thing" (bow in hand or not) so I will admit to struggling with that (during those times I cared about such things) but it's not the reason I like to snap-shoot...I like to snap-shoot because that's how I was first taught to shoot a stick bow nearly 50 years ago as a child and I find it relaxing...that's why I like to snap-shoot.

That said?...I am thinking about taking another crack at form shooting but my health is getting worse and worse these days...the age and diabetes has me getting weaker and weaker too the point that I would be over-bowed with even my lightest of bows currently on hand (my 64"/37# Bushmen RD Longbow) so I've been thinking about grabbing another ultralight ILF target rig...after all?...I do have a dozen full length .800 spine VAP V6's just laying here...thinking about a W&W SF Forged+ riser and some mid 20's limbs just to have the option of getting back to trying some "form plinking" again....because bottom line is I like it all...target, snap, form, gap, instinctive...it's all fun to me pending mood and strength levels...which vary day too day these days.


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## JParanee (Oct 13, 2009)

Come on Bill you know Grants comment was funny  

Happy New Uear buddy


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## steve morley (Dec 24, 2005)

Bill you made a good point and the reason why I never preach only one way to do something, some Archers have physical (and sometimes mental) limitations that don't allow for text book Form, we just adapt our form to do the best we can.

I've seen things done in Archery I thought were not possible, a man shooting ten different aerial targets in less than 5 secs, a man with no arms able to shoot as well as normal Archers, Byron shooting baby asprins out of the air, it's only impossible if you're never going to try.

Happy new year, I'm already in 2015


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## GEREP (May 6, 2003)

JINKSTER said:


> And I feel sorry that anyone would actually feel that way as the flip side of that coin?....would be a handful of national champions trying to convince a www worth of archers that there's only but one (1) correct way for everyone to properly shoot their bows and enjoy archery...so I don't think either one of those ideologies are good ones...leastways not for the support and promotion of archery as a whole....just thinking out loud here.


I'm ain't no world champion, but I am my winter league champion...two years running I might add, and as far as competition goes, that's my world.

:wink:

Then again JINKS, I'm not saying what you're doing is wrong. I'm just saying that what you're doing is not what you think you're doing.

KPC


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## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

JParanee said:


> Come on Bill you know Grants comment was funny
> 
> Happy New Uear buddy


Oh alllllriiiightttt...it was funny.....well?...not funny but would ya settle for "comically true"? :laugh:

Truth be known?...I'm kind of in a pi$$y mood...left for Blue Ridge, GA the morning after Christmas day...left at 4:00am...got checked into the cabin with the wife, 3 daughters, one fiance and the 2 grandchildren and woke up the following morning with the flu...still made a quick trip to ziplines in Cherokee valley and an afternoon in Helen German town but other than that?...it was lots of hot tea and thera-flu holed up at the cabin with prayers I didn't wind up in Atlanta Medicenter with pneumonia...made it home late last night...at least my view from the cabin balcony was killer! 



















and?...no problems whatsoever out of my 10 year old 100K mile Titan! 










but yeah...okay...it was funny. :laugh:


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## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

GEREP said:


> I'm ain't no world champion, but I am my winter league champion...two years running I might add, and as far as competition goes, that's my world.
> 
> :wink:
> 
> ...


That's cool Kev...and yep...sure wouldn't be the first time I thought I knew what I was doing and turned out to be wrong but?...as long as I'm having fun, relaxing and enjoying myself?...is there really any wrong way to do that? :laugh:

BTW...I haven't lost a straw bale yet! :laugh:

I used to "Live 4 The Competition"...no need posting them again....you've seen the pix.


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## JParanee (Oct 13, 2009)

Hoping you feel better Bill


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## Chris1ny (Oct 23, 2006)

When I shoot instinctive traditional recurves, split fingers, I naturally cant the bow. 

When I shoot instinctive compounds, 3 fingers under, I don't cant the bow. 

No preference for one way or another, just depends on the equipment configuration.


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## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

steve morley said:


> Bill you made a good point and the reason why I never preach only one way to do something, some Archers have physical (and sometimes mental) limitations that don't allow for text book Form, we just adapt our form to do the best we can.
> 
> I've seen things done in Archery I thought were not possible, a man shooting ten different aerial targets in less than 5 secs, a man with no arms able to shoot as well as normal Archers, Byron shooting baby asprins out of the air, it's only impossible if you're never going to try.
> 
> Happy new year, I'm already in 2015


Right?...believe it or not there was a time that I was a "Strictly By The Book" instructor...nothing formal....just helping Boy Scouts get their archery merit badges and helping new club members not lose arrows and get disappointed and not come back...but there's certainly been more than a few occasions where folks just refused to "get something" I was trying to relay to them and wind up with situations where "By-The-Book" wasn't necessarily the best way for everyone....and is where I learned that not everyone's mind processes info in the same way...nor is everyone's body produced from a cookie cutter.



JParanee said:


> Hoping you feel better Bill


Thanks Joe...and I am...or if this was any of the last 4 days?...I'd just be reading....if that.


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## Stone Bridge (May 20, 2013)

Hank D Thoreau said:


> Okay, so I am one of the folks that shoots a longbow using target form. I do not cant unless it is inadvertent. In order to shoot without canting I need a bow and set of wood arrows that will cooperate so that I can put the arrows on the center line. I did not have that with my Samick SLB. It took my best form to shoot straight. I finally relented and canted, but not to get my eye over the arrow, rather to take some of the paradox and shift it from the horizontal to the vertical axis. Once the arrow is consistently on the center line, I could adjust the height to put the arrow where I wanted it to go. Then it just came down to consistent execution to keep the arrows going there. When I got my Falco Trophy longbow, I found that I was finally able to put arrows consistently on the center line without canting, as long as I executed reasonably well. I no longer had to shoot my best shot. Not sure if this was a tuning issue, bow fit issue, or both.


Horace Ford didn't cant his longbows either. He did okay.


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## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

Just to be a butthead about it?...(and since I haven't heard anyone else mention it yet)...another reason I like to cant my bows is for better arrow control under fast moving shooting conditions....IOW's?...it helps keep my arrow on the shelf when I swing draw. :laugh:

whoops...I just dropped another form nazi no-no....didn't I? :laugh:


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## Hank D Thoreau (Dec 9, 2008)

Jinx, after breaking two pricey arrows during the novelty shoots at the Gene Foster Traditional Rendezvous, I wish I had a swing draw, instinctive form to fall back on. I learned that it is difficult to stringwalk popup and moving targets. The target is gone by the time I finish checking my math.


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## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

Hank D Thoreau said:


> Jinx, after breaking two pricey arrows during the novelty shoots at the Gene Foster Traditional Rendezvous, I wish I had a swing draw, instinctive form to fall back on. I learned that it is difficult to stringwalk popup and moving targets. The target is gone by the time I finish checking my math.


:laugh:

But you're a good sport Hank and that's what counts in my book! :thumbs_up 

at least you tried! 

I've watched deer become part of the background and vaporize right before my eye's WHILE I was starring at them....it's freaking amazing...they are a walking Houdini act.....which for me is a big part of "why" I like to retain the ability to off an arrow both quickly and accurately....without taking my eyes off "that spot".


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## Sanford (Jan 26, 2009)

JINKSTER said:


> ...I'm kind of in a pi$$y mood...left for Blue Ridge, GA the morning after Christmas day...left at 4:00am...got checked into the cabin with the wife, 3 daughters, one fiance and the 2 grandchildren


Heck, there's your problem. Next time, either take the wife and kids or your fiance but never both at the same time. No wonder you're a moody wreck!


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## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

Sanford said:


> Heck, there's your problem. Next time, either take the wife and kids or your fiance but never both at the same time. No wonder you're a moody wreck!


:laugh: ya think? :laugh:

actually it's my middle daughters fiance....they just got engaged last week....I'm happy about that...he seems to be very compassionate and level headed.....just what she needs because she's pretty much my mini-me. :laugh:

What I'm moody about is I wasn't feeling good enough to go zip lining...but went to watch and wound up videoing it for everyone while Jimmy took care of the crying grand-daughter....you can hear my sniffling sick self narrating.  But at least they had fun and I had some great relaxing "me time"....


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## Hank D Thoreau (Dec 9, 2008)

JINKSTER said:


> :laugh:
> 
> But you're a good sport Hank and that's what counts in my book! :thumbs_up
> 
> at least you tried!


If I was a really, really, good sport, I would have broken more than two arrows. I decided to quit while I was behind.


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## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

Hank D Thoreau said:


> If I was a really, really, good sport, I would have broken more than two arrows. I decided to quit while I was behind.


It's all in what we as individual archers want out of archery Hank....you?...you sir are a "Longbow Sniper" in the making....others seek different paths...me?...I like it all but most here know which I prefer...and here's a new breakout form of archery I think is going to do nothing but great things for perpetuating this sport we all love so much....and from them?....you may see the next generation of formal competitors evolve....have you seen this venue?...."Archery Tag"....






and notice how this self proclaimed archery tag trick shot expert cants his bow?....and I would think such is pretty much mandatory for those running, jumping and quickly moving about with arrows nocked...






Pretty cool huh?


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## Stone Bridge (May 20, 2013)

Take one of those in the junk and see how much fun it is. LOL


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## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

Stone Bridge said:


> Take one of those in the junk and see how much fun it is. LOL


Stone....they make these things called "Hard Cups"....I was an only child...my best friend was also my little league baseball catcher....he used to bang himself in the boys with a baseball bat to prove to coach he had his on before a game when coached asked to make sure he did...I only wore mine when facing down with bullies. :laugh:


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## Hank D Thoreau (Dec 9, 2008)

JINKSTER said:


> It's all in what we as individual archers want out of archery Hank....you?...you sir are a "Longbow Sniper" in the making....others seek different paths...me?...I like it all but most here know which I prefer...and here's a new breakout form of archery I think is going to do nothing but great things for perpetuating this sport we all love so much....and from them?....you may see the next generation of formal competitors evolve....have you seen this venue?...."Archery Tag"....
> 
> 
> 
> ...


It's amazing what folks can do. I really enjoyed the novelties but I was running out of arrows set up the way I needed them for the 3D the next day. Next year I am going to bring some low cost arrows and go for it. Set them up just for the novelty shoots. Go for the steel deer with reckless abandon. That instinctive archery instructor I was telling you about has an aerial machine that launches targets. I can't shoot them with my form. I need something different for that style of shooting.


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## MGF (Oct 27, 2012)

JINKSTER said:


> Well that could be....I have wide shoulders and short arms to the point that I am PHYSICALLY UNABLE and CAN NOT do the "shoulder touch thing" (bow in hand or not) so I will admit to struggling with that (during those times I cared about such things) but it's not the reason I like to snap-shoot...I like to snap-shoot because that's how I was first taught to shoot a stick bow nearly 50 years ago as a child and I find it relaxing...that's why I like to snap-shoot.
> 
> That said?...I am thinking about taking another crack at form shooting but my health is getting worse and worse these days...the age and diabetes has me getting weaker and weaker too the point that I would be over-bowed with even my lightest of bows currently on hand (my 64"/37# Bushmen RD Longbow) so I've been thinking about grabbing another ultralight ILF target rig...after all?...I do have a dozen full length .800 spine VAP V6's just laying here...thinking about a W&W SF Forged+ riser and some mid 20's limbs just to have the option of getting back to trying some "form plinking" again....because bottom line is I like it all...target, snap, form, gap, instinctive...it's all fun to me pending mood and strength levels...which vary day too day these days.



I don't think it's about touching shoulder blades together. It's more about getting your shoulders in a more "normal" alignment, closer to where they'd be if you were just standing straight. Less strength is required to hold the bow in that position.


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## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

Hank D Thoreau said:


> It's amazing what folks can do. I really enjoyed the novelties but I was running out of arrows set up the way I needed them for the 3D the next day. Next year I am going to bring some low cost arrows and go for it. Set them up just for the novelty shoots. Go for the steel deer with reckless abandon. That instinctive archery instructor I was telling you about has an aerial machine that launches targets. I can't shoot them with my form. I need something different for that style of shooting.


Yes it is amazing what folks can do Hank...and I learned decades ago (holding several offices over many years at our local club) that...."Novelties Attract"....back in the late '80's (before the days of cellphones, texting, emails and net) our NFAA/FAA sanctioned club was like any other in the country...struggling for dues paying members to keep up with the cost of liability insurance for our leased land with nothing for a communications system except having the local newspaper journalist come out and cover us with a story once or twice a year and?...."Word Of Mouth"....at this time?...our club membership was about 40 (and that included teens & children) and IBO/3D was still but a rumored whisper on archers lips...but we did throw the occasional NFAA "Animal Round Shoot" (to keep the hunters coming back) with our 2D paper target version of a 3D! LOL!...which is about the same time one of our retired contractor members "Big Jim Steffens" got creative and contact cemented several layers of this new fangled material called "Etha-Foam" together and from that?...he cut out the shape of a life sized running deer....he then suspended it from 2 clothesline pulleys (remember those? LOL!) on a 1/4" steel cable zip line (in front of a fire break burem) which gave birth to what became known by every archer in the state as....

*"Treasure Coast Archers Running Deer Target"*

and after the first hunting season passed?.....where archers hunted statewide sitting around campfires with each other telling stories of Treasure Coast Archers Running Deer Target?...the year that followed saw our club inundated with entry fee paying archers who traveled from all over the state to come shoot our "Running Deer Target"....next thing you know?....the newspaper guy started "asking us" if he could come out for a story....membership exploded...dues, fees and funds started pouring in....everybody wanted to shoot that running deer and nobody wanted Treasure Coast Archers to ever go away...we used the money to upgrade to the point we had a 10yd too 80yd front range with a combination locked gate that was available 24/7 with halogen lights and not one but (2) 14 target butt back ranges and all 5 Star NFAA/FAA Rated...and by the time 3D did make it's debut?....we had enough funding to deck out both back ranges with Mckenzie targets and enough left over for a 3 wheeler and trailer to cart them out there with for set-up....our 3D's drew 100-150 archers from all over the state (while 50-60 would be a big turn out for other clubs)...pole barned bar-b-que pits were built...lunch tickets were sold....and the crowd favorite lunchtime novelty shoot?...Big Jim Steffens "Running Deer"....several entrants would pay the entry fee (whatever they decided and agreed upon) and they'd all shoot as the deer came running by....closest to heart center?...won...50% payback....there was often times "a waiting line" and we'd ALWAYS have to "Shut it Down" to get folks back out on their assigned targets to blow the horn for the afternoon round. :laugh:

One of our Charter Members was Dillard "Buck" Bucklin....he owned a custom paint & sign shop in town and was close friends with Fred Bear....Bucks shop did a lot of the finishing paint/art work for Fred's Gainesville facility...Buck even had Fred talked into coming down to hand out our clubs "Year End Awards" (at our "year end banquet"..remember those?)...unfortunately Fred passed...but even he knew of our clubs "Running Deer" and what it did for our clubs membership and the effect it had on growing archery in this area...I share that story here because this is the 2nd time I've heard of this "Steel Deer" novelty....keep it going folks! :thumbs_up



MGF said:


> I don't think it's about touching shoulder blades together. It's more about getting your shoulders in a more "normal" alignment, closer to where they'd be if you were just standing straight. Less strength is required to hold the bow in that position.


MGF...I'm not talking about "Touching Shoulder Blades Together"....I'm talking about just actually touching my shoulder with my string hand finger tips like you see many do too conclude their shot.

Happy New Years Folks! L8R, Bill. :cool2:


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## MGF (Oct 27, 2012)

I don't know why you'd want to touch your shoulder.

My take is that the best case is when your relaxed/curled fingers follow around your neck to behind your ear/head and the string elbow moves around and down.

Watch this http://www.archerygb.org/support/operations/coaches/coaching_videos.php

In any case, while the exact nature of the "follow through" might be an indication of what happened during the shot, it's not the actual goal and might be dependent on individual physiology to some extent.

However, having the shoulders "aligned" IS more rigid/stable and a relaxed string arm that's in line will get off the string cleaner. With those things taken care of (easier said than done), the arrows tend to follow the same patch and specific aiming method or how long you hold or don't becomes less of an issue.

I think we've all done it. You're not shooting so well so you try to aim harder...or not aim at all...or rush to let go of the string before you collapse...or come up with some fancy ritual for your shot sequence...maybe tug on an ear lobe or say a prayer.

My story (and I'm sticking to it) is that alignment and the "right" muscle tension go together and that's about 90% of the shot.

You might need a bit more than that to beat Dewayne but you'll be shooting pretty good whether or not you cant or look at the arrow or whatever. A lot of good archers cant the bow and a lot don't. You know why that works? It's because, if you do everything else "right", it just doesn't matter much...at the distances most of us are shooting.

If you have to cant to feel like you're lined up, I think something else is wrong...though I don't really understand why an "instinctive" shooter needs to be concerned with whether or not the arrow is under their eye. They don't look at it anyway, right? Addington shoots aspirins out of the air with the arrow behind his back.


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## UrbanDeerSlayer (Feb 10, 2012)

Maybe i missed it.....but i have not heard mention of canting the bow in order to encourage better bow arm / bow shoulder rotation. I seem to favor a slight cant...it seems to put my bow arm and shoulder into a more favorable and comfortable position. When i shoot a vertical bow I will tend to experience more bow shoulder fatigue and discomfort, and the occasional bow arm jerk and shots that go left. 

Happy New Year! :teeth:


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## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

UrbanDeerSlayer said:


> Maybe i missed it.....but i have not heard mention of canting the bow in order to encourage better bow arm / bow shoulder rotation. I seem to favor a slight cant...it seems to put my bow arm and shoulder into a more favorable and comfortable position. When i shoot a vertical bow I will tend to experience more bow shoulder fatigue and discomfort, and the occasional bow arm jerk and shots that go left.
> 
> Happy New Year! :teeth:


Nice catch Tony!...I believe there's a lot of those "little things" I take for granted when I'm just allowing my body to assume it's own natural form....for me?...the entire draw cycle is an event of everything just falling into place...(and finding it's own place)...all on it's own..."natural form"...with no interjection from me....things go where THEY WANT to be....my only two tasks?....

Focus: on that spot.

Concentrate: on executing a smooth controlled draw with a clean release.

that's it...the rest is taken for granted. :laugh:


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## MGF (Oct 27, 2012)

UrbanDeerSlayer said:


> Maybe i missed it.....but i have not heard mention of canting the bow in order to encourage better bow arm / bow shoulder rotation. I seem to favor a slight cant...it seems to put my bow arm and shoulder into a more favorable and comfortable position. When i shoot a vertical bow I will tend to experience more bow shoulder fatigue and discomfort, and the occasional bow arm jerk and shots that go left.
> 
> Happy New Year! :teeth:


There you go...the angle my string hand wants to sit at almost makes me think that I should be using a reverse cant. LOL The angle my bow arm likes, sets my grip just about right.

When my alignment is off (reference my thread about my most recent shooting crisis), my groups open or wander, my bow arm tends to recoil left (which irritates the hell out of me) and I pluck. I can hear it and I can feel the vibration. It's like finger nails on a chalk board and makes me think of busting my bow over a tree. LOL

When our troubleshooting sends us off in the wrong direction we come up with all sorts of crazy, short lived and mostly irrelevant "fixes". Alignment is at the very heart of the foundation. If it's not working, nothing else matters much. If it is working, you can get away with a lot in other areas.


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## UrbanDeerSlayer (Feb 10, 2012)

MGF said:


> There you go...the angle my string hand wants to sit at almost makes me think that I should be using a reverse cant. LOL The angle my bow arm likes, sets my grip just about right.
> 
> When my alignment is off (reference my thread about my most recent shooting crisis), my groups open or wander, my bow arm tends to recoil left (which irritates the hell out of me) and I pluck. I can hear it and I can feel the vibration. It's like finger nails on a chalk board and makes me think of busting my bow over a tree. LOL
> 
> When our troubleshooting sends us off in the wrong direction we come up with all sorts of crazy, short lived and mostly irrelevant "fixes". Alignment is at the very heart of the foundation. If it's not working, nothing else matters much. If it is working, you can get away with a lot in other areas.


I will struggle with this also.....the groups that go left and I can't seem to pull them to the center. In the past I would change everything up. Now I know better and take a hard look at alignment issues. 

I tilt my head which is how I get the arrow under my eye with my high anchor. It also feels comfortable with cradling my string hand into my cheek bone. At that point, I believe that if I don't can't the bow at a similar angle to my head then I may be torquing the string. In other words, holding the bow perfectly vertical puts a torque on the string? Just my thoughts, if I had all the answers I would be a world champion:wink:


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## MGF (Oct 27, 2012)

JINKSTER said:


> Nice catch Tony!...I believe there's a lot of those "little things" I take for granted when I'm just allowing my body to assume it's own natural form....for me?...the entire draw cycle is an event of everything just falling into place...(and finding it's own place)...all on it's own..."natural form"...with no interjection from me....things go where THEY WANT to be....my only two tasks?....
> 
> Focus: on that spot.
> 
> ...


But then there are your scores...if and when you decide to actually measure the results. I know that you don't care about scores and that's fine. It's just that it's difficult to discuss what "works" and what doesn't without some objective measure. "Happy" or "relaxed and having fun" is subjective.

If you let your body assume it's "natural form" and "find it's own place" with "no interjection from you" (isn't your body part of you?), you would likely not be walking (a learned skill), peeing in your pants and, certainly, not making a very good living.

Your body can do things like breath and pump blood without any conscious thought or planned skill development/practice but that's about it. Most everything else we do requires good development and practice. If things are done right, it can become like a reflex or "instinct" but only because we've intentionally trained ourselves for that response.

We could talk about the "throwing a ball" analogy. I used to be pretty good at it but, after not throwing much of anything for several decades, I can't throw a ball or anything else worth a darn. There's NO instinct about it! 

And then there's the fact that the guy catching the ball moves to catch it. I haven't had any success in getting an archery target, of any kind, to move in order to better catch the arrow. LOL

But use the force Luke.


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## UrbanDeerSlayer (Feb 10, 2012)

MGF said:


> But then there are your scores...if and when you decide to actually measure the results. I know that you don't care about scores and that's fine. It's just that it's difficult to discuss what "works" and what doesn't without some objective measure. "Happy" or "relaxed and having fun" is subjective.
> 
> If you let your body assume it's "natural form" and "find it's own place" with "no interjection from you" (isn't your body part of you?), you would likely not be walking (a learned skill), peeing in your pants and, certainly, not making a very good living.
> 
> ...


I shoot for scores all the time. I shoot in a couple of indoor leagues, punching paper at 20 yards currently. I just don't post my scores. This is when I notice the issues in form breakdown. One day I am pounding the center, the next time tight groups 3 inches to the left. Then it's the never ending struggle of tuning versus diagnosing form flaws. It is a constant learning curve. 

But we are way off subject now, lol. I just know I always go back to the tilting of the head and the slight canting of the bow. Maybe it's a bad habit that is now engrained, or maybe it's good form, I don't know. But I am shooting much better scores than I was this time last year, shooting in the 260s to the occasional 270s on a good day on a 300 round FITA 40 cm 10 ring target face. When you start hitting decent scores it's tough to get to that "elite" level, you have to look at all the little things to improve your consistency.

Sometimes I just want to grab the longbow and snap off some shots at a moving target for fun. Striving to shoot with precision all the time can be stressful,


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## JParanee (Oct 13, 2009)

MGF is correct

Muscle memory is an incredible thing 

If you do something long enough it feels natural 

It does not mean it is right 

Ask any golfer 

When I was working on my sword draw (Iaido) and my handgun draw I ca,e to realize that it takes repeating a motion many many times to commit it to muscle memory 

I read somewhere that is something like 2500 times 

Once committed to muscle memory it becomes a natural motion 

It did not at first 

For years of my archery life I was self taught 

I snap shot and could not hit anything at a level of consistence that I was happy with 

Sure I killed deer and hit things but not at a level that I was happy with 

Every time I would try and stop the continuous flow I would hit nothing and I really struggled when I tried to change what I had programmed my body and mind to do

It was only when I realized that in my hunting I had much better success when I would draw when an animal was not looking or their vision was blocked that I had to learn how to hold and than release 

That was hell and I had to retrain my mind and body to do so 

Than I started shooting with some very good archers and I started to see that I needed a lot more reprograming 

I am still reprograming 

Trying to add a whole new shot sequence to muscle memory and it is very difficult to say the least, but I am pleased with the results thus far 

I am going thru the same thing now with an old friend that I grew up with and that moved away 

We shot the same as kids and now that he has returned I am helping him try and break all the bad habits we learned as kids together 

He is resisting 

But after going to the MuZzy shoot last year and seeing how the better shooters were shooting he is trying 

He just got a much lighter bow and we are working on it 

I would love to get him to one of Rods classes 

As for chanting a bow 

I canted my whole life and I still can but I shoot with a more vertical bow these days. It seems to help me with the muscle memory part meaning if I cant I want to go back to my old shooting form 

Now when I cant I bend at the waist 

Trying to keep everything the same as a vertical bow 

I have seen shooters that shoot both ways and no one is right and no one is wrong


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## MGF (Oct 27, 2012)

UrbanDeerSlayer said:


> I will struggle with this also.....the groups that go left and I can't seem to pull them to the center. In the past I would change everything up. Now I know better and take a hard look at alignment issues.
> 
> I tilt my head which is how I get the arrow under my eye with my high anchor. It also feels comfortable with cradling my string hand into my cheek bone. At that point, I believe that if I don't can't the bow at a similar angle to my head then I may be torquing the string. In other words, holding the bow perfectly vertical puts a torque on the string? Just my thoughts, if I had all the answers I would be a world champion:wink:


A really high anchor is another twist. My glasses limit how high I can go (I stay under my cheek bone) but some really good shooters anchor really high. I guess there are all sorts of compromises. Those great shooters are making measured compromises though. Right? At some point, it might be sensible to sacrifice some alignment or even arrow flight for ease of aiming.

I feel comfortable making general statements about "form" but "form", in total, is the cumulative result of a bunch of things. So a shooter who has a real edge in one area can do very well despite what we might consider a deficiency in another. Nobody is perfect so you mix, match and tweak to get things to work as well as you can.

Whether it's the IBO champ or the top Olympic shooters, they don't all look exactly the same but it's probably safe to say that most start out developing the same fundamentals. Tweaking and compromising doesn't seem to me to be the same as just letting your body do what it wants. If it were, IBO champs and Olympic gold medalists could skip all the long hard training and practicing and just do what comes "naturally".


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## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

MGF said:


> But then there are your scores...if and when you decide to actually measure the results. I know that you don't care about scores and that's fine. It's just that it's difficult to discuss what "works" and what doesn't without some objective measure. "Happy" or "relaxed and having fun" is subjective.
> 
> If you let your body assume it's "natural form" and "find it's own place" with "no interjection from you" (isn't your body part of you?), you would likely not be walking (a learned skill), peeing in your pants and, certainly, not making a very good living.
> 
> ...


Well?...I won't argue with or debate you there MGF....but for me?...

"Relaxed & Having Fun" usually equals "Happy with The Results"

My reality is I'm a washed up, has been, 2nd Hand Lion diabetic old dude who plinks at straw bales in his backyard and occasionally attends local club 3D's to socialize and get some fresh air and sunshine...(and with some groups I shoot with there?....we leave the scorecards on the tables! LOL!)...but I still enjoy tinkering with all forms and styles of single string archery...matter fact?...I'm shopping for a new ultra-light form/target rig now...the riser will be something cutting edge and either machined alum or CF...the limbs will be in the 24-28# range...and who knows?...I might even start keeping score. :laugh:

Happy New Years! Bill. :cool2:


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## JParanee (Oct 13, 2009)

Bill you are not old and certainly not a has been 

Happy new year buddy 

You accomplished so much this year alone 

Quitting smoking is huge and I am proud of you


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## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

JParanee said:


> Bill you are not old and certainly not a has been
> 
> Happy new year buddy
> 
> ...


Thanks Joe...you're right....that was a big thing...can't believe how I so quickly forgot about how badly I struggled with that already...still alive and kicking...have much to be both grateful and thankful for...thanks, I feel better now.


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## Windrover (Jan 6, 2012)

steve morley said:


> Great video angle from one of the all time Barebow greats Seimandi, note vertical bow, string and arrow nock directly in line with the eye.


Steve: It is apparent that two different styles have a very hard time understanding each other but its interesting to try. 
If I hold my bow vertical with the string in front of the eye, I cannot actually see the string, I just see blur. With a hunting weight string I see about 5" inches of blur at 10 yards. maybe 20 inches of blurr at 40 yards. I can only assume that the string is centered in front of the eyeball when most blurred, since I cannot actually see it. Do you sight where most blurred or on the edge of the blurr?
I admit I'm an old archer and very far sighted. Can you actually see the string that close to the eye?
I do realize that field archers have taken these techniques to great result. 
I also hope you realize that hunting orientated archers might not want blurr in their sight picture hence the cant to move the string out of the plane of vision eye -arrow - heart/lungs.


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## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

Windrover said:


> Steve: It is apparent that two different styles have a very hard time understanding each other but its interesting to try.
> If I hold my bow vertical with the string in front of the eye, I cannot actually see the string, I just see blur. With a hunting weight string I see about 5" inches of blur at 10 yards. maybe 20 inches of blurr at 40 yards. I can only assume that the string is centered in front of the eyeball when most blurred, since I cannot actually see it. Do you sight where most blurred or on the edge of the blurr?
> I admit I'm an old archer and very far sighted. Can you actually see the string that close to the eye?
> I do realize that field archers have taken these techniques to great result.
> I also hope you realize that hunting orientated archers might not want blurr in their sight picture hence the cant to move the string out of the plane of vision eye -arrow - heart/lungs.


Windrover...you're touching on something I often catch a little heat over from time too time and by just a few...and "that something" is the fact that there are many ways, styles and associated forms in which to enjoy shooting a bow...I like to jokingly refer to the crowd that likes my own preferred style as "F-Troop"...

*F*loppy hats, *F*ur, *F*lannel and *F*red's!!! :laugh:

Which somehow seems to mysteriously and inadvertently offend the more refined but the bottom line analogy I make to distinguish the (at least) two different approaches?...is often times as far departed as hockey skates and figure skates. :laugh: 

But I enjoy them both...just not too the same degree. 

pending mood and tude. :laugh:


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## MGF (Oct 27, 2012)

UrbanDeerSlayer said:


> I shoot for scores all the time. I shoot in a couple of indoor leagues, punching paper at 20 yards currently. I just don't post my scores. This is when I notice the issues in form breakdown. One day I am pounding the center, the next time tight groups 3 inches to the left. Then it's the never ending struggle of tuning versus diagnosing form flaws. It is a constant learning curve.
> 
> But we are way off subject now, lol. I just know I always go back to the tilting of the head and the slight canting of the bow. Maybe it's a bad habit that is now engrained, or maybe it's good form, I don't know. But I am shooting much better scores than I was this time last year, shooting in the 260s to the occasional 270s on a good day on a 300 round FITA 40 cm 10 ring target face. When you start hitting decent scores it's tough to get to that "elite" level, you have to look at all the little things to improve your consistency.
> 
> Sometimes I just want to grab the longbow and snap off some shots at a moving target for fun. Striving to shoot with precision all the time can be stressful,


No leagues close to me and I haven't posted many scores since stone called me a liar. LOL

Aside from my recent "backslide" I've been stuck in the 260's/occasional 270 something on the NFAA 40 cm. That's not "bad" but it's not up there with the "big dogs" who are shooting 290ish in practice.

I shoot individual days, groups or ends that suggest that I could score much better. It's just that I haven't been able to hang a 40 cm target and actually make 60 consecutive shots that break 280.

Humble as it may be, that 280 is my holly grail. I really want to get it before I'm too old to care. My primary interest is hunting but I'll bet a guy who can shoot 280+ could kill a lot of game.


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## Bustoff (Sep 3, 2014)

Without sights - recurve - I kant the bow.
Sights - compound - vertical bow.

I got a lot out of the book "Instinctive Archery Insights" in addition to "Shooting the Stickbow".


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## Windrover (Jan 6, 2012)

JINKSTER said:


> Windrover...you're touching on something I often catch a little heat over from time too time and by just a few...and "that something" is the fact that there are many ways, styles and associated forms in which to enjoy shooting a bow...I like to jokingly refer to the crowd that likes my own preferred style as "F-Troop"...
> 
> *F*loppy hats, *F*ur, *F*lannel and *F*red's!!! :laugh:
> 
> ...


Right on the button. Hockey/figure skates that's a good analogy. I often think the target shooter versus G Fred Asbell style is basically rifle target versus shotgun. Unfortunately the Traditional thread is very vulnerable to such conflicts. 

At my age 63 I need a clear view of my target so I may be committed to the cant but I would like to understand more about the methods of field archery. 

You consistently express your style without trying to force other . Good work.


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## MGF (Oct 27, 2012)

The only "style" preference I have is that which leads to hitting the target...whatever the target is and whenever I choose to hit it. I don't excuse my misses or take each hit to mean that I have it all figured out.

As a student of archery, it would be useful to me if one offering a style or system would also offer some objective measure. It immediately raises a red flag when they talk about how great it is for hunting even though it causes you to miss targets. What? Game isn't a target? Whatever it is, it's a target. Either you can hit it or you can't.

I'm not a world champion archer and I don't even get to hunt much "big game" but I've been hunting (something or other) and shooting all sorts of weapons for a pretty long time and it all sounds like TV/film sort of nonsense to me.

None of this is new. John Schultz talked about missing a hail marry shot at 60 yards, spooking two bucks and quick drawing to shoot the second buck on the run. How does that sound to those of you who have actually done some hunting? Just walk through the woods jumping critters and spraying arrows? Sort of like shot gunning rabbits in thick cover. Sure.

Then there's films of Fred Bear stalking a brown bear on a moose kill (found the day before?) in the Canadian "wilderness" down a MOWED path. I know it's hard to film a real stalk in the kind of thickets you'd have if it wasn't mowed but it's all TV BS. No harm done there until people take it as being indicative of what real hunting is like.

That's all fine entertainment but the multitudes that don't know any better start to believe it and pass it on as gospel.

That's still ok except that's how we got the 16th Amendment, Social Security, Medicare and Obamacare. All of a sudden, it isn't so cute.


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## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

MGF said:


> The only "style" preference I have is that which leads to hitting the target...whatever the target is and whenever I choose to hit it. I don't excuse my misses or take each hit to mean that I have it all figured out.
> 
> As a student of archery, it would be useful to me if one offering a style or system would also offer some objective measure. It immediately raises a red flag when they talk about how great it is for hunting even though it causes you to miss targets. What? Game isn't a target? Whatever it is, it's a target. Either you can hit it or you can't.
> 
> ...


You're right MGF...all this romantic sentiment revolving around instinctive snap shooting where folks cant their bows sideways like a gangster with a 9 then hunch over, squat, fart and pluck will undoubtedly put an end to civilized archery and associated organizations as we've come to know them and I say...

*HAPPY NEW YEAR!!!* :RockOn::jam::jazzmatazzes::rock::RockOn::BrownBear::hatparty::cheer2:


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## MGF (Oct 27, 2012)

Windrover said:


> Right on the button. Hockey/figure skates that's a good analogy. I often think the target shooter versus G Fred Asbell style is basically rifle target versus shotgun. Unfortunately the Traditional thread is very vulnerable to such conflicts.
> 
> At my age 63 I need a clear view of my target so I may be committed to the cant but I would like to understand more about the methods of field archery.
> 
> You consistently express your style without trying to force other . Good work.


I'm going to leave the skating thing alone but target archers and G. Fred are all shooting a single arrow at a time. What about any of it is like a shotgun? There's no contention between shotgun methods and rifle methods. You shoot a rifle like a rifle and a shotgun like a shotgun.

The only thing I can personally say about the "Asbell style" is that I've never, personally, seen anybody trying to use it who could hit anything. I remember when I first started shooting a recurve and shot it like I did my compound (sans sights). Guys at the club would tell me that I should shoot a recurve "this way" and they would demonstrate. They would lean over, shoot very quickly and NEVER hit anything.

I remember being amazed that such big strong guys shooting such heavy bows could get their arrows to fly so slow and make that cool sound. Now I realize that they probably weren't drawing 22" before letting the arrow go. And I never understood how anybody could miss by so much.


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## MGF (Oct 27, 2012)

JINKSTER said:


> You're right MGF...all this romantic sentiment revolving around instinctive snap shooting where folks cant their bows sideways like a gangster with a 9 then hunch over, squat, fart and pluck will undoubtedly put an end to civilized archery and associated organizations as we've come to know them and I say...
> 
> *HAPPY NEW YEAR!!!* :RockOn::jam::jazzmatazzes::rock::RockOn::BrownBear::hatparty::cheer2:


I don't know much about archery organizations but happy New Year!


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## steve morley (Dec 24, 2005)

MGF said:


> The only thing I can personally say about the "Asbell style" is that I've never, personally, seen anybody trying to use it who could hit anything. I remember when I first started shooting a recurve and shot it like I did my compound (sans sights). Guys at the club would tell me that I should shoot a recurve "this way" and they would demonstrate. They would lean over, shoot very quickly and NEVER hit anything.


I see an Irish guy at quite a few IFAA worlds and European 3D's, he's a huge fan of Fred and can't hit a barn door from the inside with this method, that being said it doesn't detract from his enjoyment one bit, he is always upbeat and has a big smile on his face. For some people it's all about the experience of the tourney and meeting with other Archers, I'm always pleased to see this guy at tourneys, his attitude to the sport is an example to everyone in not to taking themselves too seriously.


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## Windrover (Jan 6, 2012)

MGF said:


> I'm going to leave the skating thing alone but target archers and G. Fred are all shooting a single arrow at a time. What about any of it is like a shotgun? There's no contention between shotgun methods and rifle methods. You shoot a rifle like a rifle and a shotgun like a shotgun.
> 
> The only thing I can personally say about the "Asbell style" is that I've never, personally, seen anybody trying to use it who could hit anything. I remember when I first started shooting a recurve and shot it like I did my compound (sans sights). Guys at the club would tell me that I should shoot a recurve "this way" and they would demonstrate. They would lean over, shoot very quickly and NEVER hit anything.
> 
> I remember being amazed that such big strong guys shooting such heavy bows could get their arrows to fly so slow and make that cool sound. Now I realize that they probably weren't drawing 22" before letting the arrow go. And I never understood how anybody could miss by so much.




Please don't think I disagree with you. I personally gave up the lean thing many many years ago. I found that shooting a lighter bow with vertical stance was more accurate for me, so I work on improving my target style stance about 95% of the time. The OP was asking about cant not lean. I realize that many great field shooters shoot vertical. I just can't get anyone to explain the benefits. I am used to shooting a compound vertical so it is comfortable for me. I just can't see the resulting string blur as a good thing. I seem to have to choose between a blurry target or moving the nock and string noticeably left or right to get to the edge of the blurr or beyond. 
I sincerely would like to know the benefit.


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## MGF (Oct 27, 2012)

I don't know if it's "correct" but I line the string blur up on the riser. It doesn't obstruct my view of the target or the arrow. 

In one of his videos Jimmy Blackmon mentioned varying string blur alignment to compensate for changes in "tune" over distance when string walking. It's another reference that can be used.


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## MGF (Oct 27, 2012)

steve morley said:


> I see an Irish guy at quite a few IFAA worlds and European 3D's, he's a huge fan of Fred and can't hit a barn door from the inside with this method, that being said it doesn't detract from his enjoyment one bit, he is always upbeat and has a big smile on his face. For some people it's all about the experience of the tourney and meeting with other Archers, I'm always pleased to see this guy at tourneys, his attitude to the sport is an example to everyone in not to taking themselves too seriously.


It's great that he's happy.

Here's what I think got under my skin today. No work because of the holiday and it's too cold and windy for me to go outside so I made the rounds of the forums...cabin fever on steroids.

Some of the stuff I read is pretty amazing. With so much total nonsense that's repeated over and over and passed on as gospel, it's a wonder anybody can learn to shoot.


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## Archer Mech (Sep 7, 2014)

In my particular case I cant my bow for the simple fact that I don't have a tall sight window on my Bob Lee Recurve bow. If I hold my bow vertical the target is obscured by the bow with my shooting style. I don't get in to all these string walking and all these other theories since I want to have a constant anchor point all the time no matter what distance I'm shooting at. I hear comments about my canted shooting style by people who are snap shooting. I think that's worse than a canted style. My other two Wing bows have a taller sight window so canting is not as critical to my sight picture and I can shoot them more vertical.


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## Thin Man (Feb 18, 2012)

In his 1856 book, _Archery: Its Theory and Practice_, Horace Ford discusses the bow position. He is referring to (I believe) the English longbow (self-bow style) of yew, straight grip, and shot off the knuckles.

I relate his commentary only for the interesting manner in which he analyzes this particular subject concerning the common bow of his era, rather than as a position taken either for or against canting within this thread.

Herewith: (I break his single paragraph into easily-read bites.)

_"Regarding the position of the bow, whether it should be held, when drawn up for the aim, perpendicularly or more or less obliquely opinions are pretty equally divided – the preponderance being, perhaps, rather to the side of the latter. I think, however, that sufficient reasons can be adduced as to leave no doubt that the oblique is the better method.

For, firstly, the bow comes a little to that position naturally, the wrist requiring a slight twist to hole it quite perpendicularly; 

secondly, in a side wind blowing towards the face of the archer, the arrow is more easily retained on the bow; 

and, thirdly, it gives the elbow of the left arm a slight inclination outwards, which is so far advantageous as assisting to keep that arm out of the way of the string. 

I know of no advantage possessed by the perpendicular holding of the bow to counterbalance the above advantages appertaining to the oblique. It is therefore recommended that the bow be held somewhat in the latter direction."_

Ford's book is a masterpiece of analytical discourse concerning the archery methodology of his era (and a very fun read, as well). He is in agreement with, and reinforces, many of the archery conventions of the time, yet when in disagreement performs a gracious elocution as to his reasons for thinking otherwise.


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## Stone Bridge (May 20, 2013)

I don't cant but I have seen some formal target archers cant ever so slightly - maybe 5 degrees. They did it the same amount every time and they were using sights. I think as long as you're consistent it doesn't matter. Comfort at full draw is very important, more important than fitting into the ideal pose I think. 

Could be wrong, but I think Olympic archer and forum member limbwalker cants his bow while shooting with sights a tiny amount. At least it looks like that to me in film I've seen of him from Athens in 2004. I have seen others do this.


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## Bobman (Dec 18, 2004)

I shoot with a cant and am an excellent shot, been shooting that way for 50 years. I don't snap shoot though.


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## Windrover (Jan 6, 2012)

GEREP said:


> Again, while I understand that has been the old wive's tale, I think it's just that...an old wive's tale.
> 
> If the angle of the head and shoulders stay on plane with the string and bow (which they should), no more of the target is actually *opened* up.
> 
> ...


Please look at the pictures on the Traditional sticky- Various methods of aiming the tradbow. You have drawn the canted bow with the target coming right alongside the bow. Not so as the "sticky" pictures show. The bow and the string are rotated away from the path of the arrow(the line of vision)\giving a clear sight to the target. 
I understand that some cannot due to face shape or hand size cannot ever get this view. 
The sticky pictures show a cant of about 25 degrees. That is what I used to use for traditional longbow/recurve but for a more modern bow or a compound, as little as five degrees can clear the string from view.
There is no need to lean the shooter to get sight line clearance and I personally don't lean.


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## ghostgoblin22 (May 3, 2013)

all this talk of canting or not is really silly to be honest, everyone has their own way of shooting....if the particular archer is staking tight groups and shooting an unorthodox way then hes doing something right

what kills me is people swear by Olympic archery style shooting way to much, and the same can be said for Howard Hill style shooting too...its a simple concept, pull string back, aim, release....some of you are over thinking this concept way to much and confuse new archers a ton...who gives a flying duck if someone shootings instinctive, gap, cant, no cant, and the list goes on


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## Windrover (Jan 6, 2012)

pacnate said:


> That is the question!! I'm a beginning trad archer, but I've been told to tilt the bow some (as a righty, to the right on top) and I've been told to hold straight up and down....? Any pros and cons of each method or recommendations?


I'll bet you didn't expect to stir up such a storm. These is indeed a controversial subject. 
Hope you enjoy all.:darkbeer:


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## rattus58 (Jul 9, 2007)

And my perspective on shooting.... sight picture... that thing your brain has cataloged for the shot you take, in MY OPINION... once you've practiced enough... figures it out for you... and in fact in my opinion and the opinion of several who advised me on shooting through the years past, suggested (especially since mostly it was hunting for us) that you should be able to shoot and be familiar with a range of bow positions... :grin:


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## Longbow91115 (May 4, 2009)

To tilt, or not to tilt? Seven pages...the answer is as easy as this..if playing poker with the guys, it is perfectly acceptable to tilt. If at a dinner party, break wind as silently as possible and blame it on the lady next to you.


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## pacnate (Sep 23, 2009)

Guys I've been MIA for the last few months and really busy with my son's ball teams. I had no clue this had been going on on here...lol. And really me posting is only going to stir it back up I guess....lol. 

READY GO! lol


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## Sauk Mountain (Aug 3, 2015)

Ok I'll bite...

I'm not a beginner, but I'm not a World Champ either so take this for what it's worth. When I finished reading this thread, I had to go pick up my bow and come to full draw because I honestly had no idea if I cant the bow or how much because I've just always done what felt natural. I would say that I cant the bow ever so slightly, like maybe 3-5 degrees. It doesn't seem to have any left to right affect when I use my fixed crawl, at least within the confines of my accuracy capabilities. I do practice shots from the kneeling position for hunting purposes which obviously require the bow to be canted.


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## Tradbow Guy (Feb 9, 2007)

I found I shoot 3 under better strait up, but prefer canted for split finger for some reason. I would suggest strait bow if you dont find you do better with one or the other simply because strait up is easier to reproduce, and if you dont cant the same way everytime you are changing DL.


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## rembrandt (Jan 17, 2004)

I would venture to say.....Byron Ferguson is a pretty good argument for the cant.....but like many have said, its what happens at the target that matters.....Its the Indian, not the bow!


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## Tradbow Guy (Feb 9, 2007)

rembrandt said:


> I would venture to say.....Byron Ferguson is a pretty good argument for the cant.....but like many have said, its what happens at the target that matters.....Its the Indian, not the bow!


Byrun also shoots split finger :mg:


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## Bobman (Dec 18, 2004)

*who is this guy*


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