# Bino Hashing Ethical or not



## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

*Its diffiantly breaking the rules*

No sights marks are allowed on Binos


----------



## Hollowpoint (Jul 10, 2003)

Its called CHEATING........


----------



## Bobmuley (Jan 14, 2004)

IBO "C. Cameras or range finding devices are not allowed on any of the shooting ranges regardless of use. Binoculars (hand held) will be allowed with a maximum of 8X magnification per manufacturers specification."

Just turned his binos into a rangefinder.

ASA makes it more clear.....not allowed.


----------



## BOWGOD (Aug 11, 2004)

you figure it would be about the same as gaping you pins to get your yardage. imo it's defidently unethical and cheating. come to think about it i may be wrong but wouldn't that be the same concept as using a coincedence (ranging) range finder?


----------



## dahmer (Jan 16, 2005)

Can't remember if IBO or ASA, ASA I think, if binoculars have unusual markings on them that may be used for judging yardage they are to be surrendered and returned after completeing the shoot. 
If your buddy disqualifies himself from placing or receiving any prizes for his score that's ok. If he counts his score then there is no doubt that he feels so inadequate as an archers that he must cheat for a small amount of ill gotten satisfaction.


----------



## mlviper (May 18, 2005)

Ok this is IBO's stand point.

I call Ken Ex [email protected]

Per conversation:
Basically the intent of the rule is no range finding devices as stated by Bobmuley(IBO Rule). Ken stated the hashing would be turning the binoculars into a range finding device. In the case of black and white rule violation, he would put it under the Sportsmanship rules.

So my partner may not be violating the bino rule directly, but he is in violation of the Sportsmanship rule.

Let state for the recordsf that He is "CHEATING".

Regards,

Matt


----------



## mlviper (May 18, 2005)

FYI

He does not compete and his score shows he will not be for a while.

so the bino thing doesnt help. Just like all the other gizmos. 

Just take the best jugdement and lob the arrow.

Regards,

Matt


----------



## Deezlin (Feb 5, 2004)

Go to asaarchery.com and read under shooting rules "R". it is really not as clearly stated in the IBO rules but, they only allow 8X binoculars anyway. You don't want to get in a confrontation with a judge over it. It is sort of arguing with a traffic cop.

If your friend is using the binoculars as a range finder for FUN shooting that fine. As I stated in the other thread, I use a range finder for checking my guesses in a Fun shoot. That is not a problem. But, if he ever starts competing with those binoculars he will probably be disqualified.

If I was a little harsh on you in the other thread I am sorry, but I was more offend as you came off I don't know, I don't care and let the judges worry about it. If you don't know is one thing. If you don't care that just made me a little mad. :angry:


----------



## mlviper (May 18, 2005)

Deezlin,

Ken stated it would be thrown to the Sportsmanship ruling on the side of IBO.

Basically it is not ethical.

Yeah argue with the state tropper on your speed and he will just write you up for reckless driving. 

Regards,

Matt


----------



## T.B. (Jul 15, 2004)

As stated this is cheating. I recall talking to an IBO official while I was at the World's last year and there was a guy who did that with his Binos. He got into some big trouble when he got caught using them.


----------



## Doc (Jun 10, 2003)

*If it quacks, it's probably a duck.*

A range finding device is any device used to find range. Just because a product is not marketed as a range finder or directly called a range finder on the box does not exclude it from being a range finding device. It is a matter of function. If you use a fishing pole to cast a line to the target and then measure the amount of line...Are you only fishing? No IBO or ASA rule states, "There will be no fishing on the stake prior to your shot." Even so, if somebody did this, they are cheating. Hence, your friend is violating the rules of the road.


----------



## Kelsnore (Feb 7, 2005)

He is a 100% cheater. If people find out, and they will, you are going to get tagged with the same label! :angry: :thumbs_do


----------



## JHB (Feb 5, 2003)

The rules regarding range finders are rather dubious In the IBO....Your eyes are range finders, your brain is a range finder, your pins are range finders,the size of your pin is a range finder, the gap between them is a range finder, the ground is a range finder, the size of the target is a range finder, binoculars are range finders, SOUND is even a range finder, so where does sportsmanship enter and technicalities end?


----------



## xring 77 (Jun 28, 2004)

*Its his friend*

wow, its his friend who is using the binos for a ranging device. First his friend doesn't even shoot competively and maybe he can not afford a rangefinder and therefore uses his binos to help in ranging prey when hunting. Second I've been to local shoots and wanted to practice on judging yardage so I would estimate how far the target was and then shoot it with a range finder, if I was wrong I would study the target until I figured out where I lost my yardage. Never even shot the bow on some of the targets because it was just practice. I would never do these at a national or state event. So I would tell your friend not to turn in his score card but wouldn't harass him to much because he might get frustrated and quit the sport altogether. Hope this is helpful Andy Hunnell


----------



## Marcus (Jun 19, 2002)

I've played around with this one as a test and it is not a good way of guaging distance. Just by the simple fact that your eyes adjust to the focus by an amount is worth quite a bit of distance. My guess would be that if he spent that time learning to guess distance correctly he would shoot better.


----------



## mlviper (May 18, 2005)

Man guys now I feel bad for just knowing the guy.

You have to remember that he is not shooting comp. And it is something he is doing, no ill intent I do not believe. Just shooting local non ibo shoots. No prizes or anything. It was mentioned and some people got a little miffed about it. Which I understand I sanctioned shoots I would get a little miffed too. I am not defending him or what he is doing. But at this point in the game I think he is lost on the yardage thing and is grasping for ideas. Just like all of us. But we do not want to have it spawn into a bad thing eather.

Kelsnore,
I Understand the labelling(cheater) can carry over to me. I do not for see him using this in any comp. But I will bring it to his attention. I never really cared to much about because he just shoots the local stuff it never hurt. And I do not care about the guy at the local shoot with a range finder. Its local not a sanctioned shoot. Means nothing. But I will see what he plans on doing with his new found range finder.

I go to the sanctioned shoots, but on my own with my 9 year old boys. We shoot in broken groups. And yes they are tought sportmanship. And we do not cheat in anyway. I am to bizzy finding arrows, and keeping my boys from fighting over who made the best shot. 





Regards,

Matt


----------



## luckypierre (Apr 28, 2005)

Correct me if I am wrong, but don't members of the club that hosts the shoot have an unfair advantage? Most if not all 3D targets are placed a few yards in front of the range targets, and they know the range of these. All one needs to do is subtract a few yards from the known distance and you are right on the money.


----------



## mlviper (May 18, 2005)

I have shot my local ones enough I know what to expect. And the yardage is a given. I can not control that. Some clubs can mix it up good enough that the local guys have problems.

I will be shooting here in Indiana State/Wrld Q at Bass & buck in Wabash this weekend. Never shot a round there yet. The guys that have shot it a lot say it is still a tough coarse. They mix it up good.

Whats a guy to do not go to a shoot because he has shot it a lot. I think the clubs need to work on mixing it up. If they can safely.

Regards,

Matt


----------



## Seth the XSlayr (Feb 20, 2005)

Lucky Pierre your course must be a little bland, because typically they are set up across sprawling wooded parcels of land with sometimes largely varying terrain....

As far as the topic, it comes down to "intent". If this guy's intent is to better himself through rangefinding with his binos...so be it.

If his intent is to snooker the locals out of a $15 gift certificate, karma will catch up....


Generally speaking anyone who enjoys 3D knows that the fun in it is the yardage estimation. So someone blatantly not estimating the yards should be aware they are doing something wrong...




Seth


----------



## Ont. BowTech (Dec 27, 2004)

mlviper said:


> Man guys now I feel bad for just knowing the guy.
> 
> You have to remember that he is not shooting comp. And it is something he is doing, no ill intent I do not believe. Just shooting local non ibo shoots. No prizes or anything. It was mentioned and some people got a little miffed about it. Which I understand I sanctioned shoots I would get a little miffed too. I am not defending him or what he is doing. But at this point in the game I think he is lost on the yardage thing and is grasping for ideas. Just like all of us. But we do not want to have it spawn into a bad thing eather.
> 
> ...



Doesn't maqtter what kind of shooting you are doing it is still cheating. Local shoots are just as important as the rest when you take it serious and I do when I shoot I want to have a fare chance to beat the local guy not his range finders.

my 2 cents

Grant


----------



## mttc08 (Feb 21, 2005)

UNETHICAL.....simple as that.


----------



## luckypierre (Apr 28, 2005)

Thanks, ML. I was just thinking back to when I was a member of a club. I know that the current IBO rules forbid this, but we used to discuss the distance as we approached each target. We even had range cards that gave us the distance to each of the regular (animal round) targets. One time they moved one of the target butts back about ten yards which caused me to miss by a mile since I was relying on my memory rather than estimating the yardage. So I guess it can work against you as well. By the way, that trick of turning bino's into range-finders sounds like it might work for hunting, though. What do you think?


----------



## archerdad (Oct 17, 2002)

fun round = who cares...

trophy or money round = :thumbs_do


----------



## Techy (Nov 8, 2004)

archerdad said:


> fun round = who cares...
> 
> trophy or money round = :thumbs_do


My sediments exactly. As long as it is not some kind of competition than go for it.


----------



## Bert2 (Feb 16, 2003)

There are a couple other threads -- "Promoting 3D Archery" and "3D opportunities are dying" that relate to this same general subject.

Under the existing rules (at every shoot that I've been to at least), bino hashing is clearly prohibited and therefore unethical.

However -- maybe it would be more fun if rangefinders were allowed in a specific class? Would this help bring in more shooters?


----------



## mlviper (May 18, 2005)

Well guys I taked to him last night. Said the bino hashing is not an ethical practice.

Ibo and Asa frown on it. 

His words:

"I know that, I am not member to IBO, ASA or anything else. I shoot with you for fun and I don't turn my score card in so who cares." "And the 2 local shoot I go to with you have no rules at all." "Who cares"


I get his point. I never really payed much attention if he turned his card in.

Well at least he knows.

But it is unethical to bino hash.

Regards,

Matt


----------



## Deezlin (Feb 5, 2004)

*Well, obviously if you are not competing you are not cheating!!* I would just make it absolutely clear to anyone at a local shot that you are not competing. Like I stated in another thread. I usually go to a local course with a range finder. I make sure it is OK and they at least know my intentions and I am not competing. 

As a matter of fact, I checked with the local club president and he said since I wasn't competing that I just had to pay $5 instead of the normal fee of $8. The money wasn't important to me, I hadn't even thought about asking for a discount. But, I marked my card as FUN and also signed in under the classification of FUN.


----------



## Guest (May 26, 2005)

Heres my.02. I shoot at my club and constantly see guys shooting the course with rangefinders. But they do it during open shooting. If I caught someone shooting a tourney or league score with ranging equip. I would flip out. If you are not turning in a score there is nothing wrong with that. A lot of people learn to judge yardage this way. I did not, but for some they do. So be it. As long as they are not doing it in a competitive setting to gain an advantage it is fine. But if its done even at a small local tourney with only 20 shooters its wrong to turn in that score. And cheating is what it would be.
If your buddy aint turning in that score, he hasn't done anything wrong.
If a friend of mine would ever turn a score in that way, I'd report it and we would no longer be friends. That would be a slap in the face to everyone who shoots honest scores.


----------



## mlviper (May 18, 2005)

He stated he is not planning on competing in any events small or large. Just for the fact he has no intrest in it.

Regards,

Matt


----------



## Doug Brisbane (Jun 22, 2003)

JHB said:


> The rules regarding range finders are rather dubious In the IBO....Your eyes are range finders, your brain is a range finder, your pins are range finders,the size of your pin is a range finder, the gap between them is a range finder, the ground is a range finder, the size of the target is a range finder, binoculars are range finders, SOUND is even a range finder, so where does sportsmanship enter and technicalities end?


The question is one of ethics. If a person wants to cheat bad enough they will find a way and it may even help them win something. Sportsmanship is practiced by sportsman and association with known persons who don't want to abide by the rules makes the person who knows of a person cheating a cheater also if he chooses to say nothing. There has always been people who do not want to abide by the rules which are made up by the majority and they try to attain a win with methods other than playing by the rules. These are not archers and people that associate with them knowingly are also nothing better than Low life cheats. :thumbs_do


----------



## Doug Brisbane (Jun 22, 2003)

*Ranging*

In our league which shoot 36 weeks a year and averages over 100 shooters a week we have a range finder class which is open to all. This class does not have a lot of shooters but it give everyone a chance to learn and compete at the same time.


----------



## Africanbowhunter (May 29, 2003)

*He is a cheater*

Its called cheating

He is a CHEATER :angry:


----------



## LX_Shooter (Feb 3, 2003)

Guy's read what he posted.....

He does not turn in his score card or even try to compete in a class....... :wink:


----------



## BLB752 (Aug 16, 2004)

Not!! But if he is not turning in a scorecard, who cares?


----------



## Bowhuntxx78 (Oct 7, 2003)

archerdad said:


> fun round = who cares...
> 
> trophy or money round = :thumbs_do



Yep, what he said to a "T" :thumbs_do


----------



## Gritty (Dec 18, 2003)

Come on. Nobody really cheats at archery . Do they????LOL.....

I mean as far as the mom and pop 3D's around. who scores anyone????? You can turn in what ever you want for a score . Why worry about Binos

Yardage??? Marks on the Binos??????? Heck ask what's to beat before you head out is all anyone really has to do. Labeled???

Cheater???? well don't stop with marks on Binos. How bout scrored 3Ds period..Then as long as the said scorer actually knows the rules one can label a Winner.....If it isn't scored. I don't Label a Winner It's just a shoot.

Now. Go to nearly any mom and pop spot event and you will get scored. Kind a Funny you just don't see the same folks on the Spot line who generrally shoot the lights out on the 3D coarse....


To me, You can not and never will stop or even control cheating at 3D archery......But I really could care less. I don't shoot to beat every guy out there. I shoot to shoot to the best of my own personal ability and to beat Whiskey Ed of coarse. Besides It is a ton of fun aside form the cheating that is.

I could care less what anyone else does to get their score where it is..... I can see what they shoot if they shoot with me.

Heck wasn't there a guy on here last year explaining the Binos set up as a range finder and how to do it??

Come on.....


----------



## SPECTRE (Aug 20, 2003)

Once you make the hash marks on the knob, you have in effect........ altered the binos from "manufacturers specification".

That's like taking 12X binos and replacing the focus ring cap that states the bino power with one that says "8X". 

The binos have been altered to give the shooter an advantage over other shooters, which is in violation of the rules.

Just my .02.

If somebody needs to do this to get a win then that's pretty sorry in my book.


----------



## Gritty (Dec 18, 2003)

Here's a Idea. why not eliminate the binos , Period.... I know folks might say they "Need" them and such but really. if nobody has them nobody cheats with em.

If you "need" to use them....... Maybe shoot marked yardage events.

Personally. I have some rarely ever use them until a shot has been made. I recently went back to shooting hunters equipment exclusively and in most places they are not allowed...

If they were eliminated , end of problem.

Trust me, guys who want to cheat will cheat anyway they can.


----------



## BLB752 (Aug 16, 2004)

I just use the bino's to see the scoring rings to see where I need to shoot. Or try to shoot rather. I guess if I had been at this long enough to know exactly where the 12 was on every target made I would not need them, but I figgure that will take a long while to learn.


----------



## glenny (Jul 25, 2004)

*Bino hashing ethical or not?*

I guess to even say to answer the question more or less ask it is dumber than dumber here as you can see.
I responded to this kind of thread about a month ago,a few here know what they are obviously talking about and have there opinions about using binos as rangefinders.This is rocket science to some....
Listen,carefully....
If he is just going out to 3d's to just have some good ole fun and enjoying the sport maybe as a newcomer,and perhaps you are fairly new to 3d as I would presume by asking the aquired information about what is ethical here,I would have to say that this is a way some of us think to make a living,or they do shoot 3d's because it is in there livelihood to compete...at them.
I hope that by no means any of us here are scaring you in anyway away from enjoying yourselves in this new or award winning found sport that you might have gotten you or your freind into.We see the newbees as a great thing,atleast most of us do.
It is alot of fun isn't it guys?
Now,I made it clear before, you can win money and awards at 3d as you may know of course, so this is all where the grinding metal stops making noise because your FREIND threw a wrench in the gears...is cheating a bad thing that comes from birth I don't know.
You better just rid of the situation immediately.
Here is the way to clear this mess up is it not. 

Why don't you and your "buddy" just get a pair of rangefinders......?if you don't have any,they are always up for sale here on the items for sale posts I would presume that you can say if you or your pal do hunt even, they are worth there weight in gold and by getting a pair is one of the best purchases I ever made.
There are rules in 3d such as no rangefinding devices allowed on the courses and this should make it clear and should be noted on all of them but...this is just common sense to 99.9% of us.
There is nothing wrong with going out to a 3d course with a pair of rangefinders as long as your only doing it for fun or practice....and really you don't even need to say the least even need a scorecard if this is what you are doing.
As a matter of fact it probably is something that should be done to practice and get a good feel for yardages,If I had the time I would.
As for the comment on removing binos completely from 3d's?
Why don't we all go hunting with just feildtips this year too...There is no way I'd leave home without them,Binocs are a nessesity in 3d,all of us except for you are sane on this.
As for the way you and your freinds present yourself with a ethical and responsible scorecard without the use of a rangefinding device obviously,to me this is where all the fun is anyways.Who needs to answer such stupidity,I do I guess.
Some of us are just born with the luxury of guessing yardages better than others and ya know,if ya practice enough and shoot enough ya really can get pretty damn good,even to half yardages.
So,if anyone here knows anyone who is doing this bino hashing or perhaps sees this actually happening.
Do what I would do and put a end to it.
This question should have been a obvious,try not opening up any more cans of worms. 
would ya.


----------



## stevehoyt (Mar 2, 2004)

*marks on bino's*

Simply put this is cheating , he might as well use a rangfinder because this is basicaly what he has created . Sad very Sad


----------



## tsilvers (Nov 16, 2002)

*Funny thread...*

First off... I agree this is definently cheating or more like attempting to cheat... Second to think this guy could actually consistently judge yardage based on being able to focus is a farse!!! Particulalry on a 3d course where some many variables are involved with the most importanyt being light!!! I Sorry it may get him close in terms of being able to consistently hit an animal but to dial in exact yardages for x's,12 etc... Yea right!! Good luck!!! I know a guy (actually cousin of mine) who swears he could accomplish this on a regular basis... It only took me something like (5) targets of shooting alongside this goofball to realize how pathetic his yardage judgement was utilizing this method... And he has a top of the line pair of swovarskis" (spelling..field jumpin here if neccessary) and he had claimed to have mastered this and been doing it for a number of years... So to those who let this kinda stuff bother them... Don't... Give me 30 targets on a good course and i'll challenge anyone of these goofballs who think they can do this consistently enough to make a difference in a tourny... Don't even have to shoot... Just me and a range finder against them and there best pair of binos........ What a joke... i'm tired of this topic..... Anyway... Let them attempt to cheat.... cause it don't work.... At best it might save um' a 5 here or there....

Cheers all
Tim :teeth:


----------



## YnoX (May 11, 2004)

You don't have to hash to cheat with your binos.
Instead of field practicing, you can figure out the dimensions from McKenzie/Rinehart catalogues, spend few weeks to memorize all the combinations and vuala.  
Just watch for people doing "strange" things with their equipment.


----------

