# No more FITA at Outdoor Nationals?



## jwalgast (Aug 7, 2005)

There is a rumor going around that we will shoot 70 meters only at Outdoor Nationals. No more FITA rounds. Can anyone confirm that?


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## chrstphr (Nov 23, 2005)

in even number years 70 meters is shot. odd number years the FITA is shot. It alternates each year. So last year 2013 it was FITA. 2014 is 70 meter round, 2015 FITA, 2016 70 meter round same as the Olympics. 

World Archery has gotten rid of the FITA, but national organizations have not gotten rid of it. In Korea they still shoot a National double FITA as that is the way they can thin the field, otherwise they have too many ties.

Outdoor Nationals in 2015 will probably be a FITA.

Chris


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## kshet26 (Dec 20, 2010)

I'm pretty confident that any Outdoor usat event will be 70m only for recurve from now on. Local events can still do as they please, but you'll notice that at the last meeting they didn't bother renaming it the WA round as they only care about 70m now. A few professional recurvers are only expecting to shoot 70m from now on at the competitons they attend. Korea is exception here.


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## lksseven (Mar 21, 2010)

US Outdoor Nationals was a FITA round format in 2010, 2011, 2012, 2013.

I hope it continues to be.


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## jwalgast (Aug 7, 2005)

Im hearing this "second hand" that at the coaches meeting in Colorado Springs this weekend, it was said that USA Archery will join World Archery and discontinue FITA rounds at Nationals.


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## chrstphr (Nov 23, 2005)

jwalgast said:


> Im hearing this "second hand" that at the coaches meeting in Colorado Springs this weekend, it was said that USA Archery will join World Archery and discontinue FITA rounds at Nationals.


that will be disappointing if true. 


Chris


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## Xrod (Dec 12, 2013)

Where can I find descriptions of these various rounds that you guys are discussing?

FITA rounds
70 meter
Double FITA rounds
etc.


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## gitnbetr (Jan 17, 2007)

I have planned my archery year around shooting the FITA round at outdoor Nationals as the highlight. I was already disappointed that the double is no longer shot, now this casts a pall over the whole outing. Maybe I should just shoot 3D and forget about outdoor target as it goes the way of field.


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## Serious Fun (May 12, 2003)

I suspect the national and state level have similar goals. We want to conduct match individual and team match competition that experienced and new archers find exhilarating and is also exciting for the spectators. The trick at a state level is to try to fit practice, ranking, individual matches and team rounds all into two day weekend. A schedule might be:
•	Friday PM field set up
•	Saturday AM practice and 72 arrow round
•	Saturday PM Team rounds
•	Sunday Individual elimination rounds
•	Sunday PM field take down
Nationals would be similar except practice, ranking, team round and individual matches would take four or five days.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

> national and state level have similar goals. We want to conduct match individual and team match competition that experienced and new archers find exhilarating and is also exciting for the spectators


Bob, how many spectators do you get at your state-level events? 

I can tell you that pleasing spectators at state-level events is typically a very low priority, as the spectators often are outnumbered greatly by the archers themselves.

IMO, this is another example of the disconnect between the leadership at USArchery and the desires of the recreational member. Heck even some of the "elites" want to preserve the FITA format. I can recall Jamie VanNatta standing up at the national meeting and very adamantly stating she would not only like to see the fita preserved, but to go back to a double fita for Nationals, and many top archers in the room were in agreement with her.

While it is important to prepare our international teams, and those who aspire to make them, accordingly by using the correct format, *it is just as important to please the membership and offer them the rounds they want to shoot.* And overwhelmingly, the majority of the membership wants to shoot a four-distance FITA - which is why we've chosen here in Texas to keep that round as the format for our state championship. The multi-distance, multi-target size format is also the reason we created the "Texas 1080" round, which proved to be immensely popular with the membership last summer, accounting for over 13,000 arrows shot in outdoor competition - a huge increase from previous outdoor event totals.

Because at the state level, at least, it's about pleasing the membership, not WA or the elites.

Outdoor Nationals has offered a four-distance FITA for the adults as long as I can recall. It was different than the USAT ranking events, which featured alternating formats whether it was an Olympic (double-70) or World Championship (four distance FITA) year, which made a lot of sense. 

USArchery continues to focus their attention toward WA and the elites, at the expense of recreational members. Again, attempting to serve two masters...

They will never know, and probably don't care, how many amateur archers they are running off with their decisions of late. There is no statistic to show that, which is why it's so easy for them to accept and ignore.

I'm sure NFAA, IBO and ASA will be happy to take them though.


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## ThomVis (Feb 21, 2012)

Xrod said:


> Where can I find descriptions of these various rounds that you guys are discussing?


Right here.


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## TomB (Jan 28, 2003)

John, your post reminded me of this passage about Blackberry. Replace Blackberry with USA archery in the last sentence and it sounds very familiar. 



> Blackberry, which just reported a $4.4 billion loss and a 56 percent revenue decline for its fiscal third quarter, believes it knew better what consumers wanted in smart phones. As a result, it took Blackberry six years to come out with a phone that better fit the growing demand for cheaper phones with apps and more powerful operating systems – a market being served by Apple and manufacturers of Android devices. An article in The Globe and Mail quoted an unnamed Blackberry stakeholder:
> 
> “The problem wasn’t that we stopped listening to customers,” said one former RIM insider. “We believed we knew better what customers needed long term than they did.”
> 
> So, Blackberry “listened” to what customers said and ignored the information. Isn’t that the same as not listening?


I know that some on the board are trying to turn this around, but in the mean time......


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## Serious Fun (May 12, 2003)

Spectators families friends…sponsors and fun.
At state events we have the same number of “spectator, family and friends” as we have adult archers at our events. For youth archers we have at least three “spectators family and friends”. At our state indoor championship, we have a vendor selling a custom design commemorative event T-shirt, a jewelry vendor (valentine’s day I coming) a snack bar and a food truck. We have a computer driven leader board (thanks to an army of volunteer runners) (Parent seem to be memorized by scoring leading board.) There is a lot of energy, with the buzz of conversation and music. This is for a simple 2x600 18M round. The host club put together a great event, they added two sessions to accommodate the record number of entrants. What is great is that sponsors and vendors are asking to participate.

We also have an event called the Iron Archer. We conduct a 600 round for ranking. Then we divide the field into 8 flights of 6 archers each and conduct round robin matches using the set system. At the Iron Archer we have lots of spectators, family and friends including lot of archers that come to just to watch as target archery fans! There is cheering during the matches and everyone whoops it up for one arrow shoot offs! Each target has a score flip cards and we run a match win leader board to all can follow the completion. We have match sponsors that provide a buck to whomever wins each head to head match. It’s amazing to see how focus archers can get when there is something different on the line. Seeing how the archer preform under pressure can be crazy at times. Having flights and head to head matches lets everyone play. The tourney sold out quickly. After each Iron Archer the archers ask us why we don’t have round robin tourneys more often. 

The indoor range at Ben Avery has 13 targets and is 150 feet from front to back, which allows us to shoot 18 and 25 meters and have space for all the extras. We could double the size of the range and still fill it up.

The style is not for everyone. There are a lot of Master class archers that are turned off by the music and have no interest in head to head competition. We don’t see them come out and play anymore. I think they grew up with a ranking round and are not interesting in what seems like idea of having to re-establish themselves again. Or they have simply put their bow down. For every master we see drift away, there seems to be a dozen youth giving target archery a try. Who knows how many youths will stick with it., however I am thinking that head to head match play maybe more attractive than the ball sports where there can be more on the bench than in the game.

The key is how fast these event sell out. We don't advertise to speak of. Our dream is to have more space so we serve more archers by conducting the events they want without having to raise the entry fee to artificially limit the competition to those that can afford the entry fee.


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## olympics84 (Nov 5, 2004)

I totally agree with John on this one. Maybe it's time for a Nationals for the Elites and a Nationals for eveyone else. I wonder which group would have more fun...


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## swbuckmaster (Dec 20, 2005)

Sounds like a great way to run stuff serious!


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## Serious Fun (May 12, 2003)

swbuckmaster said:


> Sounds like a great way to run stuff serious!


 "Fun" stuff seriously...the archers deserve it!


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## gitnbetr (Jan 17, 2007)

Put me in with John, but then I'm an old fart and should probably just put my bow down and stay home.


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## Serious Fun (May 12, 2003)

gitnbetr said:


> Put me in with John, but then I'm an old fart and should probably just put my bow down and stay home.


 Come out and shot some face to face matches, you might like it. If you have and you didn't like it, there are lots of other events out there like Vegas. There is enough target archery out there for everyone, NFAA to WA to field to 3D.


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## hdracer (Aug 8, 2007)

I'm a compound shooter. I like to shoot the FITA's various distances (or the 900 round) vs just one distance. It is a lot more challenging and interesting to shoot 4 distances over 2 days than it is to shoot the same distance 4 times. While I am just one shooter, I will say that I will reconsider my plans on attending the Nationals (in my backyard again this year) if US Archery goes to a one distance format.

When will US Archery realize that not all members want to shoot competition styles like the elite archers? We are not going to the World Championships. We are not going to the Olympics. We enjoy shooting different distances. 

Last year an attendance record was set (or so I heard). We will have to see if the numbers stay if the distances are curtailed for everyone.


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## midwayarcherywi (Sep 24, 2006)

Serious Fun said:


> The style is not for everyone. There are a lot of Master class archers that are turned off by the music and have no interest in head to head competition. We don’t see them come out and play anymore. I think they grew up with a ranking round and are not interesting in what seems like idea of having to re-establish themselves again. Or they have simply put their bow down. For every master we see drift away, there seems to be a dozen youth giving target archery a try. Who knows how many youths will stick with it., however I am thinking that head to head match play maybe more attractive than the ball sports where there can be more on the bench than in the game.


I really like the head to head shooting and 4 distance shooting. Didn't we have that last year? I think one point not made is changing distances is extremely challenging. Who can tell me that moving to the 80cm face from the 120cm face isn't more challenging than shooting at 1 distance??


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## lksseven (Mar 21, 2010)

Serious Fun said:


> Spectators families friends…sponsors and fun.
> At state events we have the same number of “spectator, family and friends” as we have adult archers at our events. For youth archers we have at least three “spectators family and friends”. At our state indoor championship, we have a vendor selling a custom design commemorative event T-shirt, a jewelry vendor (valentine’s day I coming) a snack bar and a food truck. We have a computer driven leader board (thanks to an army of volunteer runners) (Parent seem to be memorized by scoring leading board.) There is a lot of energy, with the buzz of conversation and music. This is for a simple 2x600 18M round. The host club put together a great event, they added two sessions to accommodate the record number of entrants. What is great is that sponsors and vendors are asking to participate.
> 
> We also have an event called the Iron Archer. We conduct a 600 round for ranking. Then we divide the field into 8 flights of 6 archers each and conduct round robin matches using the set system. At the Iron Archer we have lots of spectators, family and friends including lot of archers that come to just to watch as target archery fans! There is cheering during the matches and everyone whoops it up for one arrow shoot offs! Each target has a score flip cards and we run a match win leader board to all can follow the completion. We have match sponsors that provide a buck to whomever wins each head to head match. It’s amazing to see how focus archers can get when there is something different on the line. Seeing how the archer preform under pressure can be crazy at times. Having flights and head to head matches lets everyone play. The tourney sold out quickly. After each Iron Archer the archers ask us why we don’t have round robin tourneys more often.
> ...


The level of participation by spectators and participants that you describe for Arizona is fantastic! Congrats.

Alas, that is hardly the 'norm' around the country. Your post sounds a lot like the elites in Washington DC, NewYork and LA describing their bromides for life in those locations and assuming that it's the same every place else. Total disconnect.

The attrition of Masters participants as a result of intrusive levels of music/noise seems like it should be worthy of more concern than a shrug. And "a dozen youths" giving archery a try isn't about the music and formats!

Getting older sucks. But being around an environment that is focused on jittery noise and 3 second attention spanned people sucks even more. 

Here's a wild idea - Why not put the format to a vote of the membership?


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## chrstphr (Nov 23, 2005)

why cant the USAT events shoot the 70 meter WA round and match play, and Nationals shoot the FITA with ranking and match play. Is the field becoming too big with team, individual, mixed and para to host a FITA tourney? I personally would like to see Nationals go back to the Double FITA. 


Chris


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## kshet26 (Dec 20, 2010)

From the usaa website for nationals:

Double 72 Arrow 50m Compound Round
Double 72 Arrow 60/70m Recurve Round
Elimination Round (Match Play)
STAR FITA

No mention of full FITA.


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## archeryking (Aug 3, 2002)

This was discussed by some of the archers at last years nationals. It was no secret at that time that WA was looking at eliminiating the FITA as the qualifier for the World Championships. Some of these are not neecessarily my opinion, but I will try to give all the talking points that came up.

Some like the FITA and would like to see them bring back the double FITA. One person really felt that doing back to back one day FITA's would be great, 288 arrows in 2 days. The drawbacks to this would be that you cannot have a morning and an afternoon line. So space would be an issue. Their discussion was then break out the JOADs to their own event, and there would be lots of room for the adults, and JOADs at each respecitve event. This separation is a whole different thread.

Some like the idea that Nationals should be the FITA and change the other USAT qualifiers to only 70Meters. One shooter who was a USAT member brought up why would you want to have one USAT ranking event that is different from the rest. It has been done in the past, but they felt it did not make sense then either. They also suggested that having a FITA in the rankings doesn't make sense if all the events you are sending members to are only shot at 70meters. 

It was also discussed weather a 72 arrow or a 144 arrow qualifier should be used. It did seem that the opinion was that most liked the 144 qualifier, even if it was all at 70 Meters. The general consensus seemed to be that the 72 arrow qualifier made for too few arrows for the price of the tournament. 

A prime example is that the 2014 AZ cup is 72 arrows with a $165 entry fee. Thats over $2 per scoring arrow. This is a fantastic tournament, and I know that it costs money to run a tournament. I personally think the value in AZ cup is the International competition. If all the other USAT tournaments follow suit, I don't feel they would hold the same value. 

Personally I like the idea of every tournament being at 70 Meters. It makes things easier. You only have to get sight settings for one distance. Some tuning aspects you can throw out. All you have to tune for is the tightest group you can at that one distnace. I also like the 4 distance FITA. 90 is not easy for a lot of people (me included), and it separates out the competition. 

After the discussion at Nationals I came to the conclusion that whatever decision was made, some people would be happy, and some would not be happy.


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## gitnbetr (Jan 17, 2007)

Bob,
Will barebow recurve be a recognized class?


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## Serious Fun (May 12, 2003)

lksseven said:


> The level of participation by spectators and participants that you describe for Arizona is fantastic! Congrats.
> 
> Alas, that is hardly the 'norm' around the country. Your post sounds a lot like the elites in Washington DC, NewYork and LA describing their bromides for life in those locations and assuming that it's the same every place else. Total disconnect.
> 
> ...


 The membership elects the BOD who hires the CEO who manages staff the administer programs and events. I suggest joining USA Archery as full member, declaring an appropriate meaningful membership category, encouraging good candidates and voting for your choice.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

> Will barebow recurve be a recognized class?


Of course it won't.



> If you have and you didn't like it, there are lots of other events out there like Vegas. There is enough target archery out there for everyone, NFAA to WA to field to 3D.


In other words, if you, the members, don't like the decisions of USArchery, go find a different organization.

Sound like "our way or the highway" to anyone else?

Larry said it right. Disconnect.

This attitude will either catch up with the current "leadership", or there will be enough new members to the organization that accept the new rules and formats as their "standard" that they will survive without ever having to be responsible to the historic membership. I'm guessing the latter is the plan. Make big changes now that the "groundswell" of interest has arrived because the new members are ignorant and won't know the difference.

John


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## Serious Fun (May 12, 2003)

gitnbetr said:


> Bob,
> Will barebow recurve be a recognized class?


 Barebow is a recognized division for WA Field. In AZ many tourneys offer a barebow class because we are trying to encourage field archery and hope that if barebow archers can shoot indoor and out door tourneys, they might shoot some field too.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

In Texas, barebow is recognized for field, indoor AND outdoor events, including state records for each.

Funny that a state organization like TSAA or AZ archery can recognize indoor and outdoor barebow, but USArchery cannot. Even though their resources are infinitely deeper than what we have available at the state level.


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## Jim C (Oct 15, 2002)

limbwalker said:


> In Texas, barebow is recognized for field, indoor AND outdoor events, including state records for each.
> 
> Funny that a state organization like TSAA or AZ archery can recognize indoor and outdoor barebow, but USArchery cannot. Even though their resources are infinitely deeper than what we have available at the state level.


apparently USA is not going to have any age divisions for BB in the indoor event. Liz is running the Fairfield Ohio event and has been told her division-50+ BB will not be offered. I guess the rationale is that there are not enough archers so the solution is to have even less. I know for a fact that USA makes money even if there are only one or two in a division because they certainly aren't paying fore than a few bucks for the small awards they give out (having helped run Two JOAD nationals, 15+ state events, regional events and a USO trials, I know the cost of awards etc)


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Jim, the actions of USArchery leadership of late have made it abundantly clear what they want. An organization that's focused on producing elite archers, and international teams. I think there are some in the organization that truly believe that is their purpose. And conveniently enough for them, those same actions allow them to travel all over the world on the members and sponsor's dime, staying in fancy hotels and eating on per diem. 

Is this what the NAA is all about? Is this why Will and Maurice Thompson created the organization? 

A man cannot serve two masters.

I cannot think of a single archer who prefers the single distance format when it is not required for qualification purposes. And yet, here we are...


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## lksseven (Mar 21, 2010)

Serious Fun said:


> The membership elects the BOD who hires the CEO who manages staff the administer programs and events. I suggest joining USA Archery as full member, declaring an appropriate meaningful membership category, encouraging good candidates and voting for your choice.


Nothing but bromides. Res ipsa loquitur. 

Your statements feel like a duck and parry, if not a full on retreat. Why not poll the participants of the last 3 or 4 US Outdoor Nationals and see what the actual participants would prefer to shoot? 

FYI, in case you were addressing me personally, I _am_ a full member.


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## chrstphr (Nov 23, 2005)

archeryking said:


> Some like the idea that Nationals should be the FITA and change the other USAT qualifiers to only 70Meters. One shooter who was a USAT member brought up why would you want to have one USAT ranking event that is different from the rest. It has been done in the past, but they felt it did not make sense then either. They also suggested that having a FITA in the rankings doesn't make sense if all the events you are sending members to are only shot at 70meters.


to be honest, i completely do not understand this mindset. 

For one Nationals IS different since it is the MANDATORY required tournament. The rest are not required and you can shoot 2 or all to earn your spot on the National team. So Nationals can certainly be a full FITA and the regional tournaments a 70 meter shoot. In the end, the other USAT qualifiers resort to matchplay and the scores/ arrow averages still count the same as the full FITA Nationals. Nationals should be more, should be harder and should be a longer event than a weekend USAT qualifier. how does that NOT make sense?

With everything at 70 meters, then what is the difference in Nationals versus a region shoot??? This completely devalues Nationals. So why have it. Just make the national team whoever has the highest finishes from the 4 regional qualifiers. Why bother with Nationals if its too much bother to host a FITA. Perhaps Nationals as a spectator sport has outlived its usefulness and the regional qualifiers will suffice. 

at the very least Nationals should be a FITA if not a double FITA. 

And JOAD Nationals SHOULD be a separate event from Outdoor Nationals. The numbers alone will make this a necessity. 

Chris


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## gitnbetr (Jan 17, 2007)

Serious Fun said:


> Barebow is a recognized division for WA Field. In AZ many tourneys offer a barebow class because we are trying to encourage field archery and hope that if barebow archers can shoot indoor and out door tourneys, they might shoot some field too.


Bob,
A simple no would have sufficed. I assumed that the context in which my question was couched would have elicited a response from a man of your intelligence that would have been to the point regarding the inclusion or exclusion of the barebow RECURVE class at Nationals. Forgive me for making what was obviously an unwarranted assumption. After laying off archery for 2 years to recover from injury, I have been anticipating with great excitement being able to compete at National outdoors. 

With the attitude and arrogance that you reflect from USArchery, I will not be renewing my membership. 

My loss is greater than that of USArchery, but if my actions will contribute to even a small degree to causing USA to consider it's membership instead of the board's bullheadeness, it will be worth it.

Mike Frizzell
National record holder USArchery, barebow recurve, indoor and outdoor


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## Jim C (Oct 15, 2002)

lksseven said:


> Nothing but bromides. Res ipsa loquitur.
> 
> Your statements feel like a duck and parry, if not a full on retreat. Why not poll the participants of the last 3 or 4 US Outdoor Nationals and see what the actual participants would prefer to shoot?
> 
> FYI, in case you were addressing me personally, I _am_ a full member.


as am I, and my wife and we run the oldest JOAD club in the country and other than coach of the year recently, we haven't seen a ballot in years. the old system, before the USOC demanded a new format was regional directors. Did not matter if you were a coach, an athlete, an archery mom or a club leader-you knew who your directors were and could contact them. Lets see, I compete, I am a judge, a coach, and a club CEO. If I can only vote for say judges I have no say about coaching issues or club issues 

the entire system has taken power away from the membership (divide and conquer)


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## Jim C (Oct 15, 2002)

gitnbetr said:


> Bob,
> A simple no would have sufficed. I assumed that the context in which my question was couched would have elicited a response from a man of your intelligence that would have been to the point regarding the inclusion or exclusion of the barebow RECURVE class at Nationals. Forgive me for making what was obviously an unwarranted assumption. After laying off archery for 2 years to recover from injury, I have been anticipating with great excitement being able to compete at National outdoors.
> 
> With the attitude and arrogance that you reflect from USArchery, I will not be renewing my membership.
> ...


its sad Mike. when you attended our shoot a couple years ago, our now Level 5 Elite coach was telling our kids to watch your form which he (along with me) noted was the strongest of all the recurve archers in the venue (and we had two boys that were placing at the very top of the junior recurve or senior men's division events that year)


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## midwayarcherywi (Sep 24, 2006)

Jim C said:


> apparently USA is not going to have any age divisions for BB in the indoor event. Liz is running the Fairfield Ohio event and has been told her division-50+ BB will not be offered. I guess the rationale is that there are not enough archers so the solution is to have even less. I know for a fact that USA makes money even if there are only one or two in a division because they certainly aren't paying fore than a few bucks for the small awards they give out (having helped run Two JOAD nationals, 15+ state events, regional events and a USO trials, I know the cost of awards etc)


A very poor decision in my estimation. Yes it is inexpensive, but it goes much farther. We see an influx of shooters who PREFER to compete as barebow shooters inside the JOAD structure. USAA even went so far as to update the achievement pin matrix to support those shooters. Now they are telling those shooters the style is not worthy of being recognized at the National level? This is short sighted and does not promote the sport. 

Our JOAD team won the state indoor championship because we fielded barebow shooters. The team award was based on the aggregate of the top 3 in compound, recurve and barebow. They are all worthy styles recognized by USAA and we supported them on the state level. What message are you sending those competitive shooters by not supporting them at a national level???


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## lizard (Jul 4, 2003)

Bob,
gitnbetr and I are in the same boat! Barebow shooters don't exactly come out on top in an O.R. or a set system match!
We are an "elite" group of archers who don't like the sights and other junk that are on the recurves, it's a more challenging way to shoot, and more fun, I might add! I don't miss very often even at 60 or 70M. Maybe our bare bows will have to go to traditional nationals.



Serious Fun said:


> Come out and shot some face to face matches, you might like it. If you have and you didn't like it, there are lots of other events out there like Vegas. There is enough target archery out there for everyone, NFAA to WA to field to 3D.


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## Serious Fun (May 12, 2003)

There was a poll about NTC a short while ago. I got out of it that the membership had no overwhelming format preference. I think keeping the tourney length reasonable so that folks could take part in the national championship was important. I think the key is to conduct practice, ranking, team, elimination and finals in a reasonable amount of time. Trying to serve so many different agenda is difficult. 
There are lot of customer types. Diversity is the key. In little AZ, we have Papago 900s where beginners and veterans alike come out for a day of quick (one day) and easy (set up a target, put up a face and shoot) fun. These tourneys are fun, cheap (used target faces) and everyone gets to mix together and socialize. The 900s are the first competitions for many and is a great teaching and experience tool and gives them the tools to give team and individual matches a try later.

Also, I had the pleasure of officiating at the NTC Master Individual Elimination rounds in 2013. Everyone had a blast. (Single elimination is a downer, but that's a different topic.) I would hate to see match play be lost for more ranking rounds. Diversity is key but makes things challenging for sure.


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## Serious Fun (May 12, 2003)

lizard said:


> Bob,
> gitnbetr and I are in the same boat! Barebow shooters don't exactly come out on top in an O.R. or a set system match!
> We are an "elite" group of archers who don't like the sights and other junk that are on the recurves, it's a more challenging way to shoot, and more fun, I might add! I don't miss very often even at 60 or 70M. Maybe our bare bows will have to go to traditional nationals.


I wish more barebows would give field a try. I miss seeing the traditional and crossbows but it is what it is. The just is not enough time, volunteers, staff, equipment and space to do everything. The leadership must satisfy the main membeships direction.


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## lizard (Jul 4, 2003)

I'm with you on this Chris. I think a "National tournament" should be much like a marathon, where the cream rises to the top. A double FITA round is just that, a marathon of archers shooting 288 arrows, to find out who the best is over the long haul. It is more difficult to shoot 4 distances twice than to shoot one distance all week long. After that double FITA then you get into the OR and teams. That's how it was in Canton, MI.
There also used to be GRAND FITA round, back and forth in the distances. I'll have to find the information on those rounds, I have pretty good resource in my club, whom I will ask! 
I do understand the format of single distance is less man power to run, but it is also less fun! How many of us have shot a decent score on the far day, then lit it up like nothing else on the close day? or visa-versa? 
I think if USAA would bring this up in front of the membership VIA an email ballot or direct mail ballot would be an great idea, then they will hear us, OR BETTER YET, if we all email USAA or stuff their mailbox with letters about what we think, then who knows, MAYBE they'll hear us!
Address:

USA Archery
4065 Sinton Road
Suite 110
Colorado Springs CO 80907
Attention Sheri Rhodes, Event Coordinator

I'd love to try to shoot a grand fita! That sounded like fun!





chrstphr said:


> why can't the USAT events shoot the 70 meter WA round and match play, and Nationals shoot the FITA with ranking and match play. Is the field becoming too big with team, individual, mixed and para to host a FITA tourney? I personally would like to see Nationals go back to the Double FITA.
> 
> 
> Chris


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## lizard (Jul 4, 2003)

Then they will lose people like me and Mike, and some others as well! 
Barebow is also ONLY for the "Senior" age classification (?) Years past "Senior" meant Senior, Master 50+, 60+, 70+. Now it is only Senior. 

If they are being ruled by the USOC to get rid of certain entities, then I guess I'll have to find a home at the NFAA, of which I am already lifetime member! So no issue there. I'm shooting longbow at NFAA INDOOR (Louisville), come join me gitnbetr!



Serious Fun said:


> I wish more bare bows would give field a try. I miss seeing the traditional and crossbows but it is what it is. The just is not enough time, volunteers, staff, equipment and space to do everything. The leadership must satisfy the main membeships direction.


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## lizard (Jul 4, 2003)

Yeah, Gabe, if you look at the National Indoor form "BAREBOW (Seniors Only)" is what you will see! So, that mean slap your JOADs shooting BB are, sadly, not able to shoot national indoor. 




midwayarcherywi said:


> A very poor decision in my estimation. Yes it is inexpensive, but it goes much farther. We see an influx of shooters who PREFER to compete as barebow shooters inside the JOAD structure. USAA even went so far as to update the achievement pin matrix to support those shooters. Now they are telling those shooters the style is not worthy of being recognized at the National level? This is short sighted and does not promote the sport.
> 
> Our JOAD team won the state indoor championship because we fielded barebow shooters. The team award was based on the aggregate of the top 3 in compound, recurve and barebow. They are all worthy styles recognized by USAA and we supported them on the state level. What message are you sending those competitive shooters by not supporting them at a national level???


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## midwayarcherywi (Sep 24, 2006)

lizard said:


> Yeah, Gabe, if you look at the National Indoor form "BAREBOW (Seniors Only)" is what you will see! So, that mean slap your JOADs shooting BB are, sadly, not able to shoot national indoor.


It is an opportunity missed Liz. This really needs additional thought by USAA. The movies brought us a gift, let's not throw it away. BB is a worthy style. I like shooting compound, recurve and barebow. They all present unique challenges. They are ALL recognized styles by USAA. They are not supported equally by USAA. What is wrong with that picture and why must it be that way?


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## gitnbetr (Jan 17, 2007)

lizard said:


> Yeah, Gabe, if you look at the National Indoor form "BAREBOW (Seniors Only)" is what you will see! So, that mean slap your JOADs shooting BB are, sadly, not able to shoot national indoor.


If USA thinks that what it is doing is the driving force behind the influx of new shooters, it is an indication of how out of touch they are. Try checking out the influence of "the Hunger Games" , video games, other films and TV programs and you will see why that influx is happening. How many of those demonstrate olympic recurve? NONE! As midway said, they want to shoot barebow.
I shoot almost daily with the leader of my club's JOAD program, who is himself a reformed compounder, and one of 2 I had convinced to come to shoot the outdoor nationals as barebow recurve. Every time he talks about JOAD, he talks about how it has grown and how much Hunger Games, et al have brought that about. I hear it at every club where I compete. 

Liz, I have already made my hotel reservations for Louisville. See you there.


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## Beastmaster (Jan 20, 2009)

This is just throwing some comments out there - 

1 - regarding serving two masters. As local club leaders, we all serve two or more masters out there, especially those who have a large youth contingent with a wide spectrum of talent. You're serving both the archer, and those who pay you to teach/guide the archer (read - the parents/guardians that bring them there). You want to provide a value add - not only against other clubs, but against other sports.

Clubs enjoy the ability to grow or contract the club as needed to handle elite as well as the up and comers. The NFAA relies on the clubs to handle the up and comers, and encourages the elite to compete on a national event stage. USA Archery seems to be in this neutral region where they cannot seem to decide on where their growth or concentration of resources should be. It is up to us to be vocal and tell them where we expect them to go.

As a full member of USA Archery, I do email Denise directly. It's not a privilege to have her email - it's our right as members to be able to do so. I have always gotten a response - if not directly from her, from the person that could actually answer the question or comment. It may take a couple of days, but I'm fine with that.

2) - regarding the spectators. What does everyone expect the spectators to do? You can only talk to fellow parents so much. Across a three day tournament (like what we just finished at the Arizona State Indoor Championships), you have only so much space for vendors, so much space for seating, and so much space for the archers and shooting portion of the range. I do not expect kids to be dropped off, I expect the parental/guardian unit(s) to remain there until the rounds for that day for their archer are over. Hence the reason why we've experimented with providing WiFi at our tournaments.

3) - regarding tournaments in general. With the larger youth contingent paying the bills for tournaments - unfortunately the tides shift to where their needs come and can demand a higher priority. At least in Arizona, this has increased our Barebow requirements quite a bit, so we've shifted our response to include Barebow and cover the need. 

4) - music at venues. Using Golf as an example - golf has evolved. The 16th Hole at the Phoenix Open has been named (for decades) as the rowdiest hole in golf. Every noise decorum has been thrown out the window at the 16th hole. But the SPECTATORS come back again and again because they HAD A GOOD TIME THERE. Over time, noise levels have increased in golf tournaments, even in amateur games at the lower level - do an amazing hole, you get cheered for it. Do a bad round, you could get booed for it - and that's at the equivalent to small local tournaments.

Archery, in order to grow (and we do want the sport to grow, don't we?), has to change from the staid and stoic past it had. It has to add elements of what current societal norms demand without totally caving in and destroying the rules set forth in competition.

So, there is an expectation to help entertain the crowd. As one of the announcers for a lot of the State Indoor/Outdoor and a couple of the National Indoor region tournaments, over time I'm finding myself becoming less of an announcer and more of a DJ - not that I mind. It's ironic when you play the Village People's "YMCA" and you see the crowd start bouncing and actually dancing to the music...and this is at an archery tournament.

Some people may be aghast at that comment - but when you get spectators coming up to the tournament organizers and say that they and their kids will be back to the next tournament you run, AND they are going to recommend archery as a sport to their friends because they enjoyed being there - you have a winner. 

5) - evolution of tournament hosts. I'm finding out that as one of the people involved in tournament organization, the role for a tournament host has changed to not only encompass the archer's needs, but also encompass the needs of the spectators.

Archers for years have to 'run what your brung'....unless you have vendors. Lancaster sells a TON of stuff when they are at the larger tournaments. Spectators no longer have to bring a huge Igloo or Coleman with them - snack bars and food trucks have evolved to where you can get some great food at good prices.

A good tournament host will also read the wind and see what the archers need as well. Our club has upgraded (at our expense) a public indoor range with electronic timer monitors that ANYONE can use with a "for free" use agreement - break it, you replace it and pay to reinstall it. Otherwise - have at it and enjoy! Plug in a laptop, iPhone/iPad, or other device that can do VGA and you can use it. The cost was inexpensive compared to other dedicated timer devices...and Amazon is your friend.

But, a tournament organizer has to also read the wind and see what the spectators need too. A cheap Marshall 10 watt guitar amp with two inputs can easily handle PA system/announcer/music duties. $40-50 off of Craigslist. $9 Karaoke mic from Target. You have a PA system that can be used for YEARS with a 50-60 dollar investment. People can hear you better, archers can hear you better. Educate, inform, entertain.

6) Finally - where is this sport going?

I see it headed where we see it regularly on TV. If Bocce can be seen on NBC Sports, Archery should be able to. The catch is getting the camera views set up to where it's broadcast friendly. This is where standardization of distances makes it economical for camera crews to be cost effective.

Even on a smaller scale, new video compressions allow remote broadcasting of Standard Definition video across a 3G signal. Archery is a growing sport that has NOT taken advantage of television broadcasts. Standardization of the field of play is key. 

Football, basketball, soccer, curling, and even bocce have standardized fields of play that never shift sizes. Archery, on the other hand, used to shift a lot, especially for outdoor. This is one of the prime reasons why 50m Compound and 70m Recurve are the standard senior distances now...it's broadcast friendly.

Now, even my 12 year old yearns to go back to the 70/60/50/30m 4 distance FITA - it's one of those things where once you taste the fun, you want to have it back. But, he's pragmatic enough to realize that evolution of the sport in inevitable. And - every sport evolves. For example - Basketball would be boring if you still had nothing but the forward pass. The NCAA and NBA wouldn't be anywhere it's current popularity if the dribble wasn't allowed. (But, in theory, would have retained it if the wire mesh cages marking the out of bounds still were kept...full contact body checks, anyone?)

On a side note - if archery didn't evolve, we would still be using wooden arrows and feathers - not by choice, but because of the lack of technical evolution. The human mind has the ability to create a lot of cool things - and if archery didn't take advantage of it, we would be literally anachronistic - and instead of being a growing sport - a dying one. 

-Steve


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## chrstphr (Nov 23, 2005)

Serious Fun said:


> I think keeping the tourney length reasonable so that folks could take part in the national championship was important. I think the key is to conduct practice, ranking, team, elimination and finals in a reasonable amount of time.


i think this is a the flawed logic for Nationals. There are enough Weekend tournaments for the people who can only travel for a few days. Nationals is not and should not be a weekend tournament. It should be the highest, most prestigious tournament of the year. To condense it down to nothing for the sake of making it convenient devalues it. It is not a tournament for folks. It is a tournament for archers to compete at the highest level in the USA. People also do not want to justify an expense for a tournament that is too short and over too quick. The cost per arrow needs to be in the equation. 

and honestly, its becoming the Arizona cup that is the more prestigious tournament of the year for USAA. It is an International ranking tournament, with tough competition, which also manages to shoot a full FITA on odd numbered years and 70 meters on even. 

Making Nationals good for TV is a good thing, if the TV networks are there to televise it. The last time i only shot Nationals was in 2006, but i have yet to see any NBC/ TV trucks there televising the tournament. To change the tournament for something that is not there is in my opinion a mistake. 

Chris


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## chrstphr (Nov 23, 2005)

Serious Fun said:


> (Single elimination is a downer, but that's a different topic.) I would hate to see match play be lost for more ranking rounds. Diversity is key but makes things challenging for sure.


If Matchplay is what is important, then use the USAT qualifiers as the ranking qualifying rounds. Everyone gets ranked on the rolling rank. Top 64 in each discipline get to go to Nationals and compete. When you get to Nationals, You have a two day double FITA for a final ranking, and you can start right away with Matchplay for the rest of the event. That way you have to earn your way to Nationals with the qualifiers. 


Chris


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

> The leadership must satisfy the main membeships direction.


Chicken or egg question.

The leadership is directing the membership to a great degree. Esp. lately.

We now have every Cadet in the U.S. thinking they are a failure at the sport if they don't qualify for the JDT or ever wear a shirt with "USA" on the back.

Just like every other sport, local, state and national, we are busy raising a generation of kids who think that "select" teams are the only teams worth playing on, and titles are more important than having fun.

Nationals used to be the organization's annual gathering. A big social event where some arrows were shot, and an amateur archer was crowned national champion. What has it become now?


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## Jim C (Oct 15, 2002)

limbwalker said:


> Chicken or egg question.
> 
> The leadership is directing the membership to a great degree. Esp. lately.
> 
> ...


good points. I had my fourth kid selected to JDT. I had two others who decided (this was back before the selection camp) not to join JDT. but the stratification is troubling to me


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## Serious Fun (May 12, 2003)

Just as there are all sort of cycling (velodrome track, road, BMX, acrobatic) and running (Marathon, relay, sprint, track, cross county) there are lost of archery types (3D, Field, Indoors, Outdoors, Match, Team, flight, clout, traditional ) I can see a championship for each. Why not. If bare bow is not appropriate for matches, have them play at a field championship. If some like a archery marathon, offer a 4x144 round over four days and give it a go. If the participation is there, it will succeed, if not, modfify the format and give it another try. All I know if that we are turning away people year after year. We need to be providing for more and more people every year with bigger venues and more events. 
The Olympic format was tweaked and we went from an at risk sport to a core sport. How great is that! More people seeing and liking target archery! The membership has done a good job in selecting and directing leadership to to grow the sport.


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## midwayarcherywi (Sep 24, 2006)

Serious Fun said:


> Just as there are all sort of cycling (velodrome track, road, BMX, acrobatic) and running (Marathon, relay, sprint, track, cross county) there are lost of archery types (3D, Field, Indoors, Outdoors, Match, Team, flight, clout, traditional ) I can see a championship for each. Why not. If bare bow is not appropriate for matches, have them play at a field championship. If some like a archery marathon, offer a 4x144 round over four days and give it a go. If the participation is there, it will succeed, if not, modfify the format and give it another try. All I know if that we are turning away people year after year. We need to be providing for more and more people every year with bigger venues and more events.
> The Olympic format was tweaked and we went from an at risk sport to a core sport. How great is that! More people seeing and liking target archery! The membership has done a good job in selecting and directing leadership to to grow the sport.


Bob,

I really like shooting field; both NFAA style and FITA style. But, USAA created an expectation. In fact, they went out of their way to create this expectation for JOAD barebow shooters. There are achievement scores for both indoor and outdoor target archery. How can we turn these kids away? And in fact, they are being turned away, by making them compete with Olympic recurve shooters at the national level. It is just wrong. 

Gabe


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## Serious Fun (May 12, 2003)

midwayarcherywi said:


> Bob,
> 
> I really like shooting field; both NFAA style and FITA style. But, USAA created an expectation. In fact, they went out of their way to create this expectation for JOAD barebow shooters. There are achievement scores for both indoor and outdoor target archery. How can we turn these kids away? And in fact, they are being turned away, by making them compete with Olympic recurve shooters at the national level. It is just wrong.
> 
> Gabe


 We don’t turn them away. States like AZ offer bare bow because the host club has bare bow archers. Once bare bow becomes a significant size category, my guess is that more events will cater to them. Cadets are a great example of becoming significant. AZ Cup was only Jr and Senior in the past. Over time more and more Cadet families asked to be able to come out and compete. A few local coaches volunteered to help. Three years later and with USAA support, Cadet is now a huge part of AZ Cup! The community build its ranks and became meaningful. Bare bow can do the same. If things keep going like they are, we will have to split up NTC seniors and master and EJN just as traditional and crossbow have already been separated, just to be able to accommodate everyone. I remember when folks were thinking archery was about to die and be taken out of the Olympics a decade ago. Now we are doing great. These are great problems to have.


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## midwayarcherywi (Sep 24, 2006)

I guess I'm not sure if you're wearing your AZ hat, or your USAA hat. Good for you that you're promoting barebow in AZ. We are doing so as well in IL. USAA created an expectation. Follow through on it. How much work is it to include barebow at Indoor Nationals?

I don't want to stray too far by discussing mail in tournament versus a real championship, but all we are talking about here is tabulation and awards. Tell me if I'm off base and I'll be happy to reconsider.

And if I'm a little grouchy about this it is because I have to tell a new JOAD family whose kids (barebow shooters) had an exceptional state championship, that there is no room for them at Indoor Nationals. But hang on, wait until the field shoots come around! I'm hoping they are still interested at that point.


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## Serious Fun (May 12, 2003)

midwayarcherywi said:


> I guess I'm not sure if you're wearing your AZ hat, or your USAA hat. Good for you that you're promoting barebow in AZ. We are doing so as well in IL. USAA created an expectation. Follow through on it. How much work is it to include barebow at Indoor Nationals?
> 
> I don't want to stray too far by discussing mail in tournament versus a real championship, but all we are talking about here is tabulation and awards. Tell me if I'm off base and I'll be happy to reconsider.


 I represent me and my desire to do the best to help grow target archery for the future with the resources we have. 

I don’t think shooting 70 makes senses for bare bow. I think not having a sight and a stabilizer is a fair fight against a Olympic rig. I think to promote bare bow the event should be meaningful. Field and 3D is the most meaningful for bare bow. Field now has a finals format that is spectator friendly. I love indoors and see it as an easy sort as you say. The only problem I have is making sure that there is enough space for all categories. 

Not so long ago, my focus was on having enough archers to have the tourney break even to be able to continue to conduct events for the archers. Now the question is do we have enough time and space. Not so long ago, I told folks that we had three local ranges that were big enough to host any state level tourney. Today our state tourneys must be held at the AZ Cup field because all the other venues are too small. All in a dozen years, Yikes.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

> If bare bow is not appropriate for matches, have them play at a field championship.


I don't understand this logic. Barebow may not be appropriate for matches against Olympic recurves, but it certainly is appropriate for a full 4-distance FITA, a 900 round (which I've personally shot many times with barebow equipment) or our "Texas 1080" round that removes the longest FITA distance and offers a 108-arrow, one day event. 

The insistence that barebow is only suited for field is frankly quite insulting to most barebow archers I know, who want to play in every event they can.

What I can't understand is why the leadership at USArchery is so put off by barebow. Almost as if they are threatened by it. 

Is it okay to promote the groundswell of archery interest generated by movies who feature almost EXCLUSIVELY barebow archers, but then ignore the discipline at our major events?

And a better question is if it's so darn difficult to offer barebow at Indoor or Outdoor Nationals, then please tell me how ON EARTH the NFAA has been doing exactly that, and more, for so many years...

Barebow may not have a place at the Olympic training center, no, but acting as though offering it at Nationals is just an impossible notion is rather insulting to many members who can easily look across at NFAA and see them offer many times more disciplines at each of their National events. Nobody is asking for 8-10 disciplines. But if NFAA can pull off all the disciplines that they do, then surely USArchery can manage to pull off 3?


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## lksseven (Mar 21, 2010)

John,

Tut tut, there you go, using logic and reason again.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Larry, some of the exclusionary things we are seeing would probably make more sense if there wasn't already a national archery organization that has done them for years and years...

It's almost as if the leadership at USArchery is more than happy to have recreational archers of all types walk away and join other org's so they can continue to direct the focus where they want. I'm not sure that's the case, but it sure feels that way at times.

30,000 JOAD kids Larry. 30,000 - from the CEO's own mouth.

I'd love to see a legit. poll of archers who plan to attend Nationals, with just two questions: 1) would you rather shoot a single distance or a multi-distance format?, and 2) should all barebow archers have a division at indoor and outdoor Nationals?

Based on the feedback I get from all the archers I work with, I have a pretty good idea what the response would be. But then there are always those respondents who have been coached to prefer one or the other... 

I'd love to see the ledger that shows what additional expense allowing barebow in JOAD Nationals (indoor or outdoor) would create.

And when do the members ever get to decide this stuff? It is OUR organization, isn't it?

I can get an email from USArchery for every other thing. How hard would it be to send out a poll to the membership to decide things like this, show the legitimate results of that poll, and at least offer some facts that explain these decisions. As members who spend literally hundreds of dollars each year supporting USArchery, I think we deserve that.


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## midwayarcherywi (Sep 24, 2006)

I find it confusing and confounding that USAA encourages these youths with ribbons and pins but then says their style isn't allowed to play on the national level. It is WRONG and needs to be reconsidered.


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## lksseven (Mar 21, 2010)

limbwalker said:


> Larry, some of the exclusionary things we are seeing would probably make more sense if there wasn't already a national archery organization that has done them for years and years...
> 
> It's almost as if the leadership at USArchery is more than happy to have recreational archers of all types walk away and join other org's so they can continue to direct the focus where they want. I'm not sure that's the case, but it sure feels that way at times.
> 
> ...


D.C. laughs at the notion that they are supposed to be serving their legitimate constituents. Apparently Colorado Springs does, too.

Fragmentation is our only obstacle. How to offer a viable alternative, and have some muscle/viability behind it?


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

midwayarcherywi said:


> I find it confusing and confounding that USAA encourages these youths with ribbons and pins but then says their style isn't allowed to play on the national level. It is WRONG and needs to be reconsidered.


In their defense (and yes, I will defend USArchery when I think it's warranted!) - we've only had the barebow achievement system for JOAD and AA archers for a matter of months. 

Yes, it took FAR too long for it to come to fruition, but it is here now, and for that I'm grateful. 

I'm not going to expect USArchery to suddenly change the format for Nationals in the first year of the achievement program. The second year? Perhaps. The third year? Absolutely. Myself and many other JOAD program leaders will be steadily pushing to see this happen, and I suspect many JOAD barebow archers and parents will too.

However, offering competitive adult barebow divisions for archers at Nationals should be a no-brainer, as NFAA has offered their equivalent (plus many other styles) for many years now. 

IIRC, we had compound barebow at Nationals in 2006. Surely if we have/had compound barebow (not a recognized WA discipline) then we can have recurve barebow (a recognized WA discipline) ? If even just for the 50+ crowd, that would be a start, and greatly appreciated by them I'm sure.


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## midwayarcherywi (Sep 24, 2006)

Perhaps you are correct. And I'm willing to cede the point. It doesn't make things easier though when the group plans to travel to nationals and you have to tell those kids, maybe next year....maybe.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

I tell them "maybe next year" and follow it up with "make sure the staff at USArchery knows how you feel about not having a JOAD barebow division at Nationals!" 

I can see both sides of this easy enough. I understand the numbers thing, but I also understand that if it's not really that much extra work (and the NFAA proves every year that it's not), then just offer it and keep that part of the membership happy and engaged.

BTW, I have several barebow archers who will be shooting JOAD Indoor Nat's anyway, just to prove a point.

John


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## gitnbetr (Jan 17, 2007)

In appreciation of Jim and Liz Coombe, I have decided to shoot at national indoor at their place. My only question is whether to shoot 60+ barebow or 60+ recurve. The obvious answer is to shoot barebow so the powers that be will see one more barebow shooter in the numbers. Maybe if USArchery sees that, if encouraged or even tolerated, that class could be as large as the over 60 class at NFAA nationals, which was 18 shooters and was shot in 2 flights. Bigger than several of the USAA classes. If I was to shoot recurve, I would expect to finish in the middle of the class, hoping to make the point that a recurve barebow is not "senseless" for indoor. My concern is that no one would even notice or become aware that I did it barebow recurve. I might even tape a match stick on my bow and shoot recurve at the national outdoor. We ought to get Stonebreaker in on that.

It was interesting to read the "Mission Statement" of USAA and note the lack of inclusion and lack of balance of the stance that is being taken and voiced by Bob in this thread compared to the balance that is called for in the statement. Your comments about the pictures of the opening page are dead on in that comparison.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

So long as you don't enter Senior men's recurve, I'll be happy with your decision. LOL!

This is especially interesting, as 2014 may well prove to be the most competitive barebow year in the history of USArchery. We have more barebow archers right now, capable of breaking 540 on an indoor fita, than I can ever recall, and perhaps ever in the U.S.

With all the archers we have shooting barebow in JOAD, this will surely help the cause.

I don't expect the culture in Co.Springs to change overnight. But I do expect it to change.

John


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## TomB (Jan 28, 2003)

limbwalker said:


> BTW, I have several barebow archers who will be shooting JOAD Indoor Nat's anyway, just to prove a point.
> 
> John


Problem is John, the point will be lost because they will be buried in with the Olympic recurves. There will be no way to identify those that shot barebow. Only the archers themselves will know.


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## gitnbetr (Jan 17, 2007)

After thinking about it for a while, I think I will enter the Texas NATIONAL outdoor target tournament. That is the one that seems to have taken the mantle that reflects what I think of as being true to archery in this country.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Tom, I get that, but there is value in proving a point to oneself. 

Besides, if no barebow archers show up, then it will be that self-fulfilling prophecy that some in USArchery love to use as their excuse for providing fewer services to the membership.



> Texas NATIONAL outdoor target tournament


 

Mike, you'd love our TOTS 1080 round. Ask Rick Stonebraker about shooting it barebow. It's a hoot.


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## mhojnacki (Aug 9, 2011)

olympics84 said:


> I totally agree with John on this one. Maybe it's time for a Nationals for the Elites and a Nationals for eveyone else. I wonder which group would have more fun...


Reminds of the PAA and Vegas every year. Where is the PAA now?


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## lksseven (Mar 21, 2010)

All the "marketing and catering to the Twitter generation" arguments for growing the spectator base ... I get it. Nothing wrong with jiggering at the margins to make watching the competition a little more fun for spectators, and it's certainly also a $dollar motivation - not unimportant, but should it be central to the activity? Are opera singers/producers changing operas to include an opera rendition of YMCA or Justin Beiber's latest jingle into the opera, because they're wringing their hands over how to attract a young audience that will come and talk and giggle throughout the performance and get their rave on? A Justin Beiber concert is entertainment for people looking for a good time. Opera is a _pursuit_ for excellence in a discipline that requires dedication and tremendous precision and technical skill - creating a final product that is beautiful and awe inspiring (I don't enjoy opera, but I certainly appreciate the work and skill required to create the beauty of the final product). Is the bump and grind Twitter crowd going to appreciate the artistry and achievement of the opera singer? If not, should opera really be considering changing its fundamental structure? Likewise archery at the national level?

The many people and their parents that go to minor league baseball games and can't remember a single play of the game, because the only real reason they are there is to gorge on the dip-n-dots and watch kids squeal down the waterslide in left field ... while it may increase the spectatorship of baseball, is that spectatorship in an evening's 'entertainment' increasing the participation or appreciation of THE SPORT and artistry of baseball? Changing the distance from home plate to first base from 90 feet to 70 feet; or changing from 4 bases to 3 bases; or changing a strikeout to 2 strikes; or ??? .... these wouldn't be baseball "evolving", but rather radically changing the fundamental underpinnings of the sport (and cutting the threads that link players and the game of 2014 with the players and the game of 1914). 

Local tournaments - sure, loosen things up, liven things up, try to broaden the exposure to a new segment of the population, with the goal that 1) revenues will be increased, and 2) maybe some of the exposed will get the notion to actually try the sport and participate. 

But, the national championship isn't a local tournament, and it shouldn't be an entertainment "show". It should be all about the archers and their dedication and skill and artistry. If only 8 non-archers are able to appreciate the demonstration of that skill and artistry under the pressure of competition, then so be it. As an archer, I'm there for myself and the other archers - I'm there to test myself, and to test the other archers against the pressures of competition (not just the archers on the line with me, but all the archers who have gone before, and all the archers who will come after me - shooting the same format allows me to share that commitment and beauty with archers of decades past ... the shadows of those archers are shooting right next to me, testing me, encouraging me, motivating me), and to share my passion with others who have that same passion for precision and persistence and excellence. 

In sum, have local tournaments be whatever each local populace wants/needs. But keep the FITA for the National Championship Tournament - keep this tournament special and keep it focused on the archers - both present and past.


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## TomB (Jan 28, 2003)

Brilliant Larry and spot on.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Well said Larry. I think most archers who have been in the sport for any length of time, will agree that Nationals is different. It's historic. It's as much a social gathering and tribute to tradition and history as it is a selection event for the national title. I think it should be different than the USAT/Jr. USAT events. It should be the one opportunity every can look forward to each year to shoot a four-distance FITA. 

It should also be the one opportunity each year for archers to try their hand at historic rounds like Clout, etc. and see how they would "stack up" against archers from the past.

Regarding the changes we see each year, why do I always feel that the answer from USArchery is always a "we're listening, but not responding...?" 

Again, at the annual meeting I was able to attend two years ago, the only comments I can remember hearing about the format were all in favor of keeping the four-distance fita. 

There should at least be a poll of the membership (not that damn hard these days with the doodle polls that can be sent out to EVERY member, with live results available to EVERY MEMBER) to see what format that Nationals should be for the next few years...

Why there is always so much mystery about how these decisions get made is, well, a mystery to me.


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## kshet26 (Dec 20, 2010)

I can understand the thinking behind making the top national event mirror what's happening in the highest levels of competition. Seems like changes at the elite level trickle down through the ranks is most other sports. Sounds like there should be a separate 'nostalgia' tourney.


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## Rick McKinney (Mar 4, 2008)

Oh, the changes I could share with you over the years of our National Championship event. One thing is sure, and that is change is a constant. My first nationals, we shot a FITA, 900 round and American round. Then it went to FITA and 2 900 rounds. Then to double FITA where people almost tarred and feathered Clayton Shenk who announced we would no longer use the 900 round and just shoot a FITA. People forget that the membership voted that we would follow FITA/WA rules and rounds. Remember, I said the membership voted this in years ago. USAA has tried to comply but it is not always easy, especially when people want both, to follow the WA and when it does not fit them, to change it up a bit. 

Many of you speak that this organization doesn't listen. Too bad you have not tried to become a board member. I have watched many members voice similar anger and frustration. Then they became a board member and their tune changed when they saw the whole picture. The board doesn't try to hide things from the membership nor are they not sensitive to everyone's concern, but it is an enormous task to keep moving forward and trying to please many different facets of the organization. 

Barebow has not been recognized by FITA/WA except in the Field events. Our own membership has voted to follow FITA/WA events, rules and rounds. Many of you forget that compounds were not shot at USAA/NAA events for years. Then WA/FITA voted to include it. Then the USAA/NAA included it as well. This organization has chosen WA/FITA as their core organization to follow. You should respect that and find ways to work with it or if there is no classification for you, go to another organization that supports you. This is in no way a negative comment. It is just a fact that each organization has rules they have chosen to follow. USAA/NAA have chosen WA/FITA which is the Olympic direction. They are constantly trying to work within the boundaries given to them. 

I like the idea that JOAD has allowed a barebow classification. I like how some states are pushing barebow classes. Eventually it could become a national classification with the encouragement of the states. However, it is a bit embarrassing when there is only one person in a class, don't you think? Eventually, that can change but work at fixing the problem, not voicing angry comments that really only causes resentment. Get involved and find a solution. It may take a few years but at least try to help fix the problems. 

This organization has come a long way out of the Dark Ages (from 1996-2008) and I am sure we all can feel some frustration, but keep it moving positively. John, I highly recommend you run for the Board. You appear to think you have many answers and yes, many are good. So get involved. It really doesn't take that much time and if you need to, talk with Chuck Trafford who has been a board member for a few years now. He might be able to help you to get more involved.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Rick did you write that?



> John, I highly recommend you run for the Board. You appear to think you have many answers and yes, many are good.


Eventually, I plan to. However, it's not exactly confidence-inspiring when my name gets left off the developmental coach of the year ballot because someone in the organization had "trouble opening an attachment", so they just went ahead with the four other nominees names. 

But thanks for the encouragement.



> You appear to think you have many answers


Don't we all?

Some of us just choose to share them in public and take ownership of them. ha, ha. Nobody should be offended by that.

Let me ask you something... What's so difficult about sending out a Doodle poll to the membership every few years? I can get a separate email for each of my family members from USArchery for so many other things. What about the things that really seem to be on people's minds?

I can think of no better way to satisfy the members questions (and silence the critics) than to show the numbers that overwhelmingly agree with the decision.


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## gitnbetr (Jan 17, 2007)

lizard said:


> Yeah, Gabe, if you look at the National Indoor form "BAREBOW (Seniors Only)" is what you will see! So, that mean slap your JOADs shooting BB are, sadly, not able to shoot national indoor.


...and now the NAA national unofficial results are beginning to be posted and guess what? Rather than Barebow being (seniors only), it is split into age divisions. Nice kick in the teeth after I decided to shoot recurve as a Master 60+ because there was no Barebow Master 60+ offered on the registration. I set a new national record for barebow Master 60+ that will never be recognized.
Thank you USAArchery, NAA


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## tigersdad (Jun 13, 2009)

Mike, where can I see your score? I know how hard you have worked to achieve high scores. Not getting your due is disheartening. Texas misses you. Steve


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## Vittorio (Jul 17, 2003)

Long time ago WA (FITA) people had clearly in mind that ranking round was for archers and finals were for TV. This was the principle that dominated the devlopment of the last 20 years of (our) archery.
Unfortunatekly, in the last 4 years WA has switched direction to consider TV finals only as archery, and forgetting that without archers also finals soon or later will stop to exist. 
Let's make a practical recent example from World Indoor championships in Nimes two weeks ago. They have been for the first time a total unsuccess for organizers (but Las Vegas two years ago was alreading ringing the bell, no one heard!) and WA.
WA was supposing that because Nimes tournament attracts 1200 particpants and alot of accompanying people every year, with 2400 spectators on the stands for the finals, a World indoor championship in same place was going to attract much more people and spectators.
So, structure itself of the qualification tournament has been changed and compressesd in order to allow to modify the Parnasse indoor stadium to accept up to 4000 spectators, and usual exibition boots have been allowed to open the last 4 days, only, when public was expected. Everything has been therefore runned without any respect for participants, even no break between first and second 30 arrows of the qulification round, no booths to visit while waiting to shoot, very short time for lunch break and no TV screens with qualification results. 
But public did not come... archers returned home when eliminated, the exibition was empty the last days and the stands in the finals looked empty, too. 
Numbers speak by themselves:

Nimes 2013 / World Champs 2014
Participants: 1200 / 350
Accompanying people : 1000/ 200
Spectators on finals : 2400 / around 800

If WA and organizer were asking themselves in advance following questions, many mistakes could be avoided:
- How many national teams were funded by their national organization? Answer: 9 only over 41
- How much it costed 4 days of WC in comparison to 4 days of usual tournament? Answer: more than double
- How many spectators of the finals of the usual tournamnt were participants or accompanying people? Answer: 100%
- Who are the buyers in the exibition during usual tournamnt? Answer: participants and accompanying people only
- Why should any usual participant to Nimes tournamnt come to Nimes just to watch the finals? Answer: No reason. 

Hope WA has learned some lesson from Nimes 2014... that should be a lesson for the all organizers of tournamnt around the world.... ohterwise it wil be very difficult in future to find organizers for such kind of TV only events.


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