# Border for olympic recurve



## Harvey87 (Apr 4, 2014)

I'm looking into a pair of border hex 5h limbs. They would be 38 lbs and go in my W&W tf apecs riser. My question is are they better for field archery and not so much an olypic recurve limb. My other choices would be ex power/primes or winex's. I might look into mk korea limbs but who knows. I hear that borders are exceptionally hard to tune and my concern is that they are more of a hassle than they are worth. My next concern is that if they really are such a massive improvement over all other limbs how come no major professfesionals use them, obviously pros have endorsements from big companies but I would think if there was a product that was truly better than everything else at least a few would be using it.


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## John_K (Oct 30, 2011)

Firstly, they aren't hard to set up or tune at all. All you need to do is accept that they work at a lower bracing height than most limbs, and you'll be fine. Seriously. I'm one of the least competent bow tuners I know, simply because I'm impatient when it comes to tinkering, and I can set up a bow with HEX5s, 6s or (now) 7s without much trouble.

Secondly, I know of an excellent lady archer here in the UK who shoots Border limbs on a full target rig and regularly wins field and target shoots. She's a 1250+ FITA shooter and mother of four. There is no logical reason why a good bow for field shouldn't be a good bow for target.

Finally, top target shooters nearly always pick gear they can get through some kind of sponsorship deal, and Border do not sponsor, period. There's nothing wrong with top archers going for sponsorship deals and contingency money; it's not as if there's as much money in archery as there is in golf, for example 

But ultimately, you have to make a choice that you're comfortable with. W&W make good limbs, so if that's the path you feel you should go down, then go for it. Happy shooting!


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## Bigjono (Apr 21, 2009)

I would say try whatever limbs you can before you buy, what works for others may not work for you. It's also worth looking to see what the top guys are shooting to see if there's a trend. The vast majority of top level field and target archers shoot conventional profile limbs but there are some that do well with deep hooks too so you just need to decide which way you want to go.


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

Harvey87 said:


> My next concern is that if they really are such a massive improvement over all other limbs how come no major professfesionals use them, obviously pros have endorsements from big companies but I would think if there was a product that was truly better than everything else at least a few would be using it.


You've already pointed out one reason why certain archers shoot what they do...which is endorsements. 

The top name limbs may have minor differences of speed, feel and stability but they're all are gonna be fairly close.

IMO...any top archer will be able to shoot just about any top limb equally well...but competitions can be won or lossed by a few points.

Border is an OUTSTANDING company leading the way in limb development and construction.

I believe Border limbs can have a more noticeable advantage in competitions where distances are unmarked.

As others have mentioned...try before you buy if you can. I believe 'feel' plays a big role in how well a set of limbs will work for you and your Goals.

Ray :shade:


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Harvey, I think your reasoning is sound.


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## anmactire (Sep 4, 2012)

I've won a fair amount including national championships with my Border limbs, albeit the Hex 6. They shoot well if you're happy to deal with the unconventional tune and like the difference in feel. The biggest annoyance I ever had with them is getting them nicely centred. The limb tips tend to buck out to the side if the limb isn't set on plane near perfectly. Other than that, a unique and IMHO comfortable feel with speed you can't match. 
As for the professionals they can't get a sponsorship from Border if the Sids stand by their word, and what they shoot shouldn't be the be all and end all of your decisions as to what you like to shoot.


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## jmvargas (Oct 21, 2004)

when i was looking for the "best" limbs i could afford about 10 years ago i tried a lot of the higher end limbs...

started with with pre-owned hoyt vectors and carbon plus and then brand new M1s, samick extremes, winex, pse expressions...

when i discovered the borders around 2008 i stopped looking------got the HEX5 first and the CXG as a back-up and for indoor..

i have no doubt that as long as they can really keep an open mind many elite and world class archers may get the same opinion..

PS:i must admit that i really haven't tried any of the newer offerings of the past few years and some of them may have also become better-----specially the european and korean offerings..


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## Demmer (Dec 1, 2012)

Harvey, tuning isn't an issue, but I will agree with limbwalker, your reasoning is sound.


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## Ar-Pe-Lo (Oct 16, 2011)

Harvey87 said:


> I'm looking into a pair of border hex 5h limbs. They would be 38 lbs and go in my W&W tf apecs riser. My question is are they better for field archery and not so much an olypic recurve limb. My other choices would be ex power/primes or winex's. I might look into mk korea limbs but who knows. I hear that borders are exceptionally hard to tune and my concern is that they are more of a hassle than they are worth. My next concern is that if they really are such a massive improvement over all other limbs how come no major professfesionals use them, obviously pros have endorsements from big companies *but I would think if there was a product that was truly better than everything else at least a few would be using it*.


Yes, you are right here......as there are national teams which are generously funded so they don't need endorsement money and if there is product really better, they would shoot it. Period.


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## Bigjono (Apr 21, 2009)

"Better" is such a subjective word, "different" works better I think. Border have gone off in one direction and now are one of the leaders in the field in that development for sure but the truth is there is little to choose between the top limbs from Border, Dryad, W&W, Hoyt, MK, Kaya, Sky etc, a good shooter will shoot well with any of them, it comes down to feel. The only thing I can add is that I've found some limbs more forgiving on a flubbed release than others and some more punishing.


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## Ar-Pe-Lo (Oct 16, 2011)

By better I mean if they give you more points.....as this is only criterium which is important in target archery IMO.


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## itbeso (Jul 6, 2005)

Demmer said:


> Harvey, tuning isn't an issue, but I will agree with limbwalker, your reasoning is sound.


I have talked to both Demmer and limbwalker as to why they think Border limbs are not for them and so far I disagree with their reasoning as I think the Border limb is far superior to any limb I have shot. I do not set mine up for maximum speed as I feel they perform better at around 8.75 brace height. I love the back end feel of the draw. I will soon be setting up an Oly rig and will have the Border limbs on for sure. Being a full time experimenter, I will probably try other limbs for comparison but I really can't see me changing. Yes, it is frustrating that Borders does not sponsor but I, personally, have found their customer service to be outstanding.


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## zal (May 1, 2007)

I always found them quite straightforward to tune. Problem was keeping the same tune day in day out. Older models have so short limb butts that with some risers they shift position every time it was restrung. Talisman limbs i found best as far as tuning consistency went. I just couldn't get hexes work for me whatever i tried. I've had 4-5 pairs and they allhad their quirks.

1322 fita is the best i know for borders, and that archer moved to other non-sponsored limbs quite quickly after that. That is still quite far from all those 1380+ scores most major limb makers have achieved. Sponsored or not. Not quite so many archers outside US get free stuff as everyone seems to imagine. You have the luxury of having manufacturers nearby.


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## Ar-Pe-Lo (Oct 16, 2011)

zal said:


> I always found them quite straightforward to tune. Problem was keeping the same tune day in day out. Older models have so short limb butts that with some risers they shift position every time it was restrung. Talisman limbs i found best as far as tuning consistency went. I just couldn't get hexes work for me whatever i tried. I've had 4-5 pairs and they allhad their quirks.
> 
> 1322 fita is the best i know for borders, and that archer moved to other non-sponsored limbs quite quickly after that. That is still quite far from all those 1380+ scores most major limb makers have achieved. Sponsored or not. Not quite so many archers outside US get free stuff as everyone seems to imagine. You have the luxury of having manufacturers nearby.


All those 1380+ archers?? Can you name few except Koreans?


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## Last_Bastion (Dec 5, 2013)

Ar-Pe-Lo said:


> All those 1380+ archers?? Can you name few except Koreans?


Valladont, Ellison, Frangilli, Dai Xiaoxiang...should I go on?


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## Ar-Pe-Lo (Oct 16, 2011)

Last_Bastion said:


> Valladont, Ellison, Frangilli, Dai Xiaoxiang...should I go on?


Hmm yes please as non of them shot 1380+


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## HikerDave (Jan 1, 2011)

Harvey87 said:


> I'm looking into a pair of border hex 5h limbs. They would be 38 lbs and go in my W&W tf apecs riser. My question is are they better for field archery and not so much an olypic recurve limb. My other choices would be ex power/primes or winex's. I might look into mk korea limbs but who knows. I hear that borders are exceptionally hard to tune and my concern is that they are more of a hassle than they are worth. My next concern is that if they really are such a massive improvement over all other limbs how come no major professfesionals use them, obviously pros have endorsements from big companies but I would think if there was a product that was truly better than everything else at least a few would be using it.


Look up Martin Ottosson's limb comparison from last year on another forum. He got some fliers with the border Hex limbs that he didn't experience with their standard limbs but had great results with their standard profile limbs.

I use Border Hex6 limbs because I want to shoot low draw weight and enjoy my shooting instead of struggling.

The Border's were really hard to tune for me a few years ago but now I think that the problem was me -- my form has improved and tuning the borders is now easier -- I think that the low brace height is a bit sensitive to hand placement and grip profile and now that I've got all that figured out the border limbs are a joy to shoot.


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## Mr. Roboto (Jul 13, 2012)

Hmm, interesting thread. I have a pretty good home made rig (I didn't make it) that shoots pretty and I know all my gaps with it for NFAA traditional shooting.

I have recently taken a liking to this whole string walking thing. So I am toying with the idea of leaving my current bow alone and just use it for NFAA Trad shoots, and get a different bow for WA barebow shoots. One of the Trad shooters brought his new delight to a 900 round a couple months ago. A Zenit riser with Border bows. He just got it the day before the shoot and went cold turkey with it. Anyways that high grip and smooth draw was really nice.

Some people say it is best to try out the limbs, but how does one go about doing that when no one within a 1000 miles sells them? Some of the responses about these limbs are that they are hard to tune. If one is coming from a background where the only tuning is twists in the string, nock set location, and plunger tension, would getting these limbs be a problematic transition?


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## Greysides (Jun 10, 2009)

As the OP refers to the HEX 5, and not the later limbs it should be noted that tuning will be more conventional than with the HEX 6 or later models. The thing to remember is that these limbs have different design parameters than limbs with a conventional geometry. It's not that they 'need' a lower brace height (although they do, or, at least, should have), it is they were designed to be shot with a lower brace height to increase energy transfer. The other characteristic of note is that they like/require a centreshot setting closer to true centreshot. While the HEX6 may need true centreshot (or even inside centreshot though that could be down to me) the HEX 5 will be intermediate as these characteristics were progressive as the limbs evolved.

As a stringwalker I saw a few features in the HEX 6 that I liked so after doing a lot of internet research when I was buying my first set of advanced limbs I opted for them. The reasons were that the higher torsional stability would minimise the inherent dynamic spine differences of the crawl range. They also tolerate a wider range of arrow spine. With no clicker to set your draw length a limb that doesn't increase as rapidly in poundage around your DL is a plus too as far as minimising the effects of human variation. The last characteristic I liked is the ability of the High Energy limbs to punch above their weight. You can hit 50m with 50# OTF or with 38# OTF. If you are a hobby archer which will have you shooting better on your 72nd arrow?

Along with the HEX 6, I also shoot CXG's. They are a very under-rated limb. Smooth and fast, conventionally tuned. My next set of new limbs will be whatever the up-to-date version of the current CVGs is called when the time comes. I'm quite happy to shoot a Hoyt GM riser so age doesn't concern me and I think it'll be a while before I need new limbs. I've always been well treated by Border Bows so I've no concerns there.

IMO.


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## zal (May 1, 2007)

CXG would be my pick if I had to choose from Border limbs easily available. As I don't I still have a set of 90's border carbons. Also at the time talisman silvers were guite good, I had a set which felt very good. It wasn't as fast as golds but that set felt pretty awesome to shoot.

Funnily I found with hex4 that best tuning consistency was with very high brace height. With my long draw the speed difference was minimal but with low brace it spread the groups quite a bit no matter what I tried. 9.5" and above brace completely fixed it. Same was with talisman golds I had, best grouping by far was with 9.5" brace. That was around time I could still actually hit something, so I got quite good test results. I found hex5 to be basically the same when I tried them, albeit briefly.


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## itbeso (Jul 6, 2005)

Mr. Roboto said:


> Hmm, interesting thread. I have a pretty good home made rig (I didn't make it) that shoots pretty and I know all my gaps with it for NFAA traditional shooting.
> 
> I have recently taken a liking to this whole string walking thing. So I am toying with the idea of leaving my current bow alone and just use it for NFAA Trad shoots, and get a different bow for WA barebow shoots. One of the Trad shooters brought his new delight to a 900 round a couple months ago. A Zenit riser with Border bows. He just got it the day before the shoot and went cold turkey with it. Anyways that high grip and smooth draw was really nice.
> 
> Some people say it is best to try out the limbs, but how does one go about doing that when no one within a 1000 miles sells them? Some of the responses about these limbs are that they are hard to tune. If one is coming from a background where the only tuning is twists in the string, nock set location, and plunger tension, would getting these limbs be a problematic transition?


I have never found the Border limbs hard to tune. They do shoot better at certain brace heights, in my opinion, but I continually experiment with my equipment so the tuning process is always in effect:teeth: I agree that they shoot closer to centershot than most limbs.


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## Demmer (Dec 1, 2012)

itbeso said:


> I have talked to both Demmer and limbwalker as to why they think Border limbs are not for them and so far I disagree with their reasoning as I think the Border limb is far superior to any limb I have shot. I do not set mine up for maximum speed as I feel they perform better at around 8.75 brace height. I love the back end feel of the draw. I will soon be setting up an Oly rig and will have the Border limbs on for sure. Being a full time experimenter, I will probably try other limbs for comparison but I really can't see me changing. Yes, it is frustrating that Borders does not sponsor but I, personally, have found their customer service to be outstanding.


I guess lucky for you, I don't shoot them. [emoji6]


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## itbeso (Jul 6, 2005)

Demmer said:


> I guess lucky for you, I don't shoot them. [emoji6][/QUi
> I was really hoping you would never figure that out.:shade:


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## beleg2 (Dec 31, 2005)

Just for reference:
My friend Roberto used to shot W&W Inno/Power and he found Hex4 shoot the same.
Hex5/6 are al ot better.
JMHO
Martin


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## itbeso (Jul 6, 2005)

beleg2 said:


> Just for reference:
> My friend Roberto used to shot W&W Inno/Power and he found Hex4 shoot the same.
> Hex5/6 are al ot better.
> JMHO
> Martin


Are you referring to Roberto Curvetto?


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## steve morley (Dec 24, 2005)

I shot the Hex6 and it's a nice feel at anchor, I've since switched to the CV limbs, I've no Chrono and as far as I can tell they're around the same speed as the Hex6's (same point on), since I got them in the spring I've shot 10 National records and won European 3D's in France. It's a good product, I think underestimated in the Target world.

If you want to be different avoid the mainstream limbs then Sky limbs could also be worth looking into, they were also on my wish list but the import taxes kinda put me off.


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## Unk Bond (Aug 1, 2004)

steve morley said:


> I shot the Hex6 and it's a nice feel at anchor, I've since switched to the CV limbs, I've no Chrono and as far as I can tell they're around the same speed as the Hex6's (same point on), since I got them in the spring I've shot 10 National records and won European 3D's in France. It's a good product, I think underestimated in the Target world.
> 
> 
> 
> If you want to be different avoid the mainstream limbs then Sky limbs could also be worth looking into, they were also on my wish list but the import taxes kinda put me off.


================

Hello Steve
Could you give me a comparison on brace height .Between the CV limbs the Hex 5-6 and 7 limbs on a 25 inch riser.Thanks.


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## steve morley (Dec 24, 2005)

Unk Bond said:


> ================
> 
> Hello Steve
> Could you give me a comparison on brace height .Between the CV limbs the Hex 5-6 and 7 limbs on a 25 inch riser.Thanks.


The Hex6's were set 7.5" and CV's are 8.5" that's on a 26" riser


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## Unk Bond (Aug 1, 2004)

steve morley said:


> The Hex6's were set 7.5" and CV's are 8.5" that's on a 26" riser



===============

Hello Steve
Thanks for your input.
8.5 says a lot to me. Thanks [ Later


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## Zarrow (Sep 8, 2010)

CVs tend to like a higher brace height. Mine is set to 8.75" on a 25" riser


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## chrstphr (Nov 23, 2005)

Ar-Pe-Lo said:


> Hmm yes please as non of them shot 1380+


Brady Ellison has a personal best of 1390 in practice. 


Chris


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## Bigjono (Apr 21, 2009)

Zarrow said:


> CVs tend to like a higher brace height. Mine is set to 8.75" on a 25" riser


Are you selling them Zafar?


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## Zarrow (Sep 8, 2010)

Jon, I may be persuaded to sell these for the right price


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## Bigjono (Apr 21, 2009)

Zarrow said:


> Jon, I may be persuaded to sell these for the right price


Lol, I thought so [emoji3]


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## Ar-Pe-Lo (Oct 16, 2011)

chrstphr said:


> Brady Ellison has a personal best of 1390 in practice.
> 
> 
> Chris


I was talking about tournament score, as practise is different....

Anyway my point was: he probably meant 1350+ ......


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## zal (May 1, 2007)

Ar-Pe-Lo said:


> I was talking about tournament score, as practise is different....
> 
> Anyway my point was: he probably meant 1350+ ......


No I didn't. 1380+ scores on both mens and womens fita have been shot constantly over last decade. 1350 just doesn't quite cut it anymore as even best westerners have been pushing close to 1370 (Nespoli etc.) It doesn't matter one bit to me that no western archer can shoot those scores, but when considering limbs, they have been shot using W&W, Samick, MK Korea, even Hoyt and Kaya.

The most noticeable archer to shoot with Borders was Michele Frangilli back in the turn of the century, he shot some pretty nifty indoor records with them and I think won 2002 European champs in Oulu. Though I'm not sure about that, he might have been shooting W&W at that time. It has been quite widely reported that he changed suppliers as he wasn't quite happy with the stability of the limb butt.


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## Ar-Pe-Lo (Oct 16, 2011)

zal said:


> No I didn't. 1380+ scores on both mens and womens fita have been shot constantly over last decade. 1350 just doesn't quite cut it anymore as even best westerners have been pushing close to 1370 (Nespoli etc.) It doesn't matter one bit to me that no western archer can shoot those scores, but when considering limbs, they have been shot using W&W, Samick, MK Korea, even Hoyt and Kaya.
> 
> The most noticeable archer to shoot with Borders was Michele Frangilli back in the turn of the century, he shot some pretty nifty indoor records with them and I think won 2002 European champs in Oulu. Though I'm not sure about that, he might have been shooting W&W at that time. It has been quite widely reported that he changed suppliers as he wasn't quite happy with the stability of the limb butt.


Hmmm "1380+ scores on both mens and womens fita have been shot constantly over last decade".......I still waiting for that looong list of archers....my guess: 2-3 korean guys, less than 10 asian girls (at least 8-9 of them korean).


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## Vittorio (Jul 17, 2003)

zal said:


> No I didn't. 1380+ scores on both mens and womens fita have been shot constantly over last decade. 1350 just doesn't quite cut it anymore as even best westerners have been pushing close to 1370 (Nespoli etc.) It doesn't matter one bit to me that no western archer can shoot those scores, but when considering limbs, they have been shot using W&W, Samick, MK Korea, even Hoyt and Kaya.
> 
> The most noticeable archer to shoot with Borders was Michele Frangilli back in the turn of the century, he shot some pretty nifty indoor records with them and I think won 2002 European champs in Oulu. Though I'm not sure about that, he might have been shooting W&W at that time. It has been quite widely reported that he changed suppliers as he wasn't quite happy with the stability of the limb butt.


1380+ for men just by Oh HY and Kim WJ
>1360 Men outside Korea, Frangilli, Ellison, Girouille, Nespoli, no others as far as I remember now

Michele shot 1364 with Border carbon limbs made for Best Archery brand during Italian selections for 1996 Atlanta Games. They were among the best limbs made ever, IMHO. He shot 1363 during 2000 Italian selections, with N-products limbs made for Spigarelli Brand. Sponsorship for limbs to him in 96 was made by Best Archery and riser was the Bernardini Ghibly. He shot one time >1380 in training, but I don't remember the year.... anyhow, training is traning ...


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## Bigjono (Apr 21, 2009)

Vittorio said:


> 1380+ for men just by Oh HY and Kim WJ
> >1360 Men outside Korea, Frangilli, Ellison, Girouille, Nespoli, no others as far as I remember now
> 
> Michele shot 1364 with Border carbon limbs made for Best Archery brand during Italian selections for 1996 Atlanta Games. They were among the best limbs made ever, IMHO. He shot 1363 during 2000 Italian selections, with N-products limbs made for Spigarelli Brand. Sponsorship for limbs to him in 96 was made by Best Archery and riser was the Bernardini Ghibly. He shot one time >1380 in training, but I don't remember the year.... anyhow, training is traning ...


Were they conventional profile limbs?


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## Ar-Pe-Lo (Oct 16, 2011)

Vittorio said:


> 1380+ for men just by Oh HY and Kim WJ
> >1360 Men outside Korea, Frangilli, Ellison, Girouille, Nespoli, no others as far as I remember now
> 
> Michele shot 1364 with Border carbon limbs made for Best Archery brand during Italian selections for 1996 Atlanta Games. They were among the best limbs made ever, IMHO. He shot 1363 during 2000 Italian selections, with N-products limbs made for Spigarelli Brand. Sponsorship for limbs to him in 96 was made by Best Archery and riser was the Bernardini Ghibly. He shot one time >1380 in training, but I don't remember the year.... anyhow, training is traning ...


Simon Terry 1364 (2010).


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## Vittorio (Jul 17, 2003)

Bigjono said:


> Were they conventional profile limbs?


Yes, they were made on original profile of Earl Hoyt limbs, with wood core. At that time someone told me that the Gordon fibergalss used for them was the secret of their speeed and consistency, but was really too expensive for a normal production ... It was a different Border company in that age, stil managed by founders, I believe. 

Among limbs used by Michele since 1996, those original Border limbs have been the top, followed by Samick Master prototypes, N-products, W&W Carbon, W&W Sinergy and first generation of Kaya limbs. Not to say that other limbs including the FIVICS he is using now are inferior to those, just that they were really at the top and rarely equalled by others. But, quite often, manufacturers want to make "better" products even when they already have the best one....


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## zal (May 1, 2007)

I think the pair of "Carbofast" branded limbs I have are same or at least very similar to those. One of the best limbs I've ever shot. Too bad they went for the extra curve way.


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## gster123 (Dec 17, 2012)

I have pair of Border Carbons from that era, 94 I believe. They are really good, bit light for me now though.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

> they were made on *original profile of Earl Hoyt limbs, with wood core*.





> since 1996, those original Border limbs have been the top





> quite often, manufacturers want to make "better" products even when they already have the best one....


And some folks wonder why I still hold on to my original SKY Jack Carbons.


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## zal (May 1, 2007)

Here's a quick study of the Border Carbons from that era I've got. Sky's are 71" others 70". Pretty similar profile in all. In side profile Borders are the bottom ones, Sky middle, KG top. I'm running pretty vintage equipment it seems


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Yup. I wonder how many limbs have copied Earl's geometry by now. 

When something works, there just isn't much reason to ever deviate from it. Yes, you can build a faster limb. Pretty easily in fact. But you give up stability. Earl was a genious and experimented with all sorts of things. Whenever a company with far less experience thinks they can outdo what he did (and there have been many that have tried), it always surprises me. Optimists, I guess.

I've never had another limb group arrows like the original SKY Jacks that I bought from Ann in late 2003. They were discontinued blemished limbs and I got two pair for $200 each. That may have been the archery deal of the century, as I still use them over 11 years and 100,000 arrows later.


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## Unk Bond (Aug 1, 2004)

zal said:


> I think the pair of "Carbofast" branded limbs I have are same or at least very similar to those. One of the best limbs I've ever shot. Too bad they went for the extra curve way.


=========

Hello
I just bought a set of "Carbofast" medium limbs. I quiet agree they are very nice and "Pep-E .
? Did they make them in longs to.


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## dkard (Sep 25, 2004)

Border still makes the conventional shape limbsfor those that do not want the big curve. A very underrated limb in my opinion. I have a set of Border Carbons, a set of Border TXS's ( my favorites), several sets of TXB's which I haven't shot much. The newer CV series are supposed to be even nicer. 

dave


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## zal (May 1, 2007)

dkard said:


> Border still makes the conventional shape limbsfor those that do not want the big curve. A very underrated limb in my opinion. I have a set of Border Carbons, a set of Border TXS's ( my favorites), several sets of TXB's which I haven't shot much. The newer CV series are supposed to be even nicer.


No they don't. They've increased the curve since the EP's or so. Talisman shape that all those CX/CV limbs are is pretty far from that border carbon profile. I had couple of pairs of talismans and it was pretty easy to compare. But I agree, TXS's were quite good, but not near as good as these are.


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## dkard (Sep 25, 2004)

My TXB's are really close to my Border carbons which are really close to my Hoyt Gold Medalist limbs


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## zal (May 1, 2007)

Here's a link to limb profile discussion in old Sagi board. I had pair of those TX40's in both silver and gold, and a later pair of TXG's which were pretty much identical. There's a huge difference in both curve and limb diameters, the talismans get really narrow closer to tip.


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## pencarrow (Oct 3, 2003)

A dream comes true.. My Border limbs are in the mail. 
Cheers
Fritz


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## kakend (Oct 30, 2007)

I have several sets of Hex6's all with BB2 upgrade and I also have a set of Hex5's. I love them all!!! They are all set up with single front stabs and no rear, so semi-Olympic style.

Have a great day,
Kasey


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## Borderbows (Apr 4, 2009)

zal said:


> No I didn't. 1380+ scores on both mens and womens fita have been shot constantly over last decade. 1350 just doesn't quite cut it anymore as even best westerners have been pushing close to 1370 (Nespoli etc.) It doesn't matter one bit to me that no western archer can shoot those scores, but when considering limbs, they have been shot using W&W, Samick, MK Korea, even Hoyt and Kaya.
> 
> The most noticeable archer to shoot with Borders was Michele Frangilli back in the turn of the century, he shot some pretty nifty indoor records with them and I think won 2002 European champs in Oulu. Though I'm not sure about that, he might have been shooting W&W at that time. It has been quite widely reported that he changed suppliers as he wasn't quite happy with the stability of the limb butt.


Thats a new one... stability of the limb butt....
so my dad went out to meet both Vittorio and MIchele and the limb butts were not mentioned. But now it is according to the internet.


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## Borderbows (Apr 4, 2009)

Vittorio said:


> ... It was a different Border company in that age, stil managed by founders, I believe.
> 
> ....


Robin Robson would have still been at School in 1940


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## Borderbows (Apr 4, 2009)

limbwalker said:


> And some folks wonder why I still hold on to my original SKY Jack Carbons.


Im supprised your not on the Sky Payroll... ;-)

What I find impressive is that Yamaha and Nishi limbs are never under scrutiny when talking limb profiles... (they are no longer in Business so no need to mention them) and not only that, that 2 out of the 3 US barebow team that went to Croatia were shooting Border Limbs as is the Paralympic GB No1, AND ALL freely using them because they bought them. they have the choice to shoot other limbs. 

Just because we don't sponser, doesn't mean to say we don't carry our own Accolades. 

So we have Zal, who ive offered to make a set of limbs off the old Carbofast/XP10 formers for (our best limbs ever) and he declined. and two archers that are "in the Business" in some way or another nocking a change in limb geometry....

Nice work Lads.


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## Borderbows (Apr 4, 2009)

Sorry, I ommited the Paralympic LADIES GB No1


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## zal (May 1, 2007)

Borderbows said:


> Thats a new one... stability of the limb butt....
> so my dad went out to meet both Vittorio and MIchele and the limb butts were not mentioned. But now it is according to the internet.


That's what I heard, if its wrong, then it has been told wrong since days of old Sagi board.

Those problems are what I experienced with old Border stuff, I had talismans delaminate at the butt, and the carbons are so rolled on the edge that they won't sit flush with most of my risers and set up differently every time I string my bow. Also the XP10's I have are cracked at the base. Grant you, the newer limbs have been better in that.

And I don't have any need for new limbs, thank you. I just hoped you'd make them as an option for public so they could judge the benefits and drawbacks of "extreme curve" themselves with same materials and construction.


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## Borderbows (Apr 4, 2009)

zal said:


> That's what I heard, if its wrong, then it has been told wrong since days of old Sagi board.
> 
> Those problems are what I experienced with old Border stuff, I had talismans delaminate at the butt, and the carbons are so rolled on the edge that they won't sit flush with most of my risers and set up differently every time I string my bow. Also the XP10's I have are cracked at the base. Grant you, the newer limbs have been better in that.
> 
> And I don't have any need for new limbs, thank you. I just hoped you'd make them as an option for public so they could judge the benefits and drawbacks of "extreme curve" themselves with same materials and construction.


Last time you and i hit several pages of debate about your understanding of border product, it was the lightness of the limbs that was your issue, now its everything else... now its the limbs butts. Ill have a little look as it must still be on here. your gripes over border product... you said you would buy our old limbs in a heart beat, but your safe that we dont make them any more. I offered to do you a one off and i didnt get much of a reply... geez a minute and ill look it up

here is one where the DFC wasnt right for you...
http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/archive/index.php/t-1599884.html


Zal, I need to offer you a job... you know more about our product than we do.

Congrats. it must be a full time job.


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## Borderbows (Apr 4, 2009)

here is another... back in 2011...
http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=1417217


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## Borderbows (Apr 4, 2009)

id like to conclude. you dont like light mass limbs, (border) you dont like the dfc (border) (irrespective of the limb shape, as long as its conventional) and now our limb butts are wrong. 

Yikes.


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## zal (May 1, 2007)

I just don't feel that going extreme recurve is the right direction. We can agree to disagree. If you can't handle that, marketing isn't really your thing 

What I don't like is that you attack customers who disagree with you. And that is a HUGE bugbear with me.

Edit: what I like about the carbon limbs we were discussing in this thread is that they have more mass, so they feel more solid after shot, the draw feels more linear to me which I like and they group well. What I don't like is that they don't fit all of my risers, specially new hoyts with floating dowels, it just flops over and pops out and the fact that the finish is flaking away every time I touch them. I still think they are great limbs with right riser.


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## zal (May 1, 2007)

This:









Is what I mean about these limbs. Just doesn't fit properly with a lot of risers. Unless you wound them right down.


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## Borderbows (Apr 4, 2009)

zal said:


> I just don't feel that going extreme recurve is the right direction. We can agree to disagree. If you can't handle that, marketing isn't really your thing
> 
> What I don't like is that you attack customers who disagree with you. And that is a HUGE bugbear with me.
> 
> Edit: what I like about the carbon limbs we were discussing in this thread is that they have more mass, so they feel more solid after shot, the draw feels more linear to me which I like and they group well. What I don't like is that they don't fit all of my risers, specially new hoyts with floating dowels, it just flops over and pops out and the fact that the finish is flaking away every time I touch them. I still think they are great limbs with right riser.


so its me you dislike... That's different to the product being wrong for the last 14 years that your talking about.

in 14 years all our product has been wrong even though its had hundreds of changes. not one is right in your opinion. at least that's the way it reads to me...


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## Borderbows (Apr 4, 2009)

zal said:


> This:
> 
> View attachment 2044360
> 
> ...


these limbs were out in 2001. 2002. How many risers in 2001 had floating head limb bolts?

if you look at the depth of the "U" in the limb, the centre of the radii is it before or after the rounding of the end.

Ill post a photo to show what I am asking...


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## Borderbows (Apr 4, 2009)

if the edge is past the centre line. then I don't see your problem...

And do you have a link to this thread on Sagi...


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## zal (May 1, 2007)

Its not you I dont like, its the approach you sometimes take...

Problem is the limbs don't sit deep enough in a lot of risers, most noticeably hoyts. I know you have fixed that, so it's not something to dwell upon.

It just shows there are no perfect limbs. Original sky conquests get closest to that mark for me.


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## Borderbows (Apr 4, 2009)

zal said:


> Its not you I dont like, its the approach you sometimes take...
> 
> Problem is the limbs don't sit deep enough in a lot of risers, most noticeably hoyts. I know you have fixed that, so it's not something to dwell upon.
> 
> It just shows there are no perfect limbs. Original sky conquests get closest to that mark for me.


have you measured the length of the Bolt to the dowel on Hoyt risers?

I fear there has been a change in this distance over time.


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## Borderbows (Apr 4, 2009)

limbwalker said:


> Sad, but it does happen more than many neophytes realize. And then they are happy when the graphics have changed... ha, ha.
> 
> I had an interesting bit of curiosity this weekend.
> 
> ...


http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=1042030&page=8


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## zal (May 1, 2007)

It isn't just hoyt, it was happening with w&w exfeel and expert, plus samick xenotech. Didnt have any issues with innos or ultras or gmx, what i can remember.

I was wondering at the time my talisman silvers with exfeel started to crack at the base that the angle in which the limb was sitting in the pocket and the fact that the butt edge was barely at the level of the centerline of the bolt might have something to do with that, as the butts seemed to have quite a lot of flex, but I didnt pursue it at the time.

It isn't just issue with borders from that era, I had same thing too with loaned spigarelli branded n-products limbs.

I know you changed the design a bit in that end and I think those problems probably arent there anymore.

Just to get back to Johns post, I certainly cant use a big bunch of limbs with ilf-converted axis. Even if it has the proper conversion hardware, the dimensions arent really right and it only works properly with hoyt and sky limbs and older w&w and samick stuff. Some new limbs just rattle around. I can video it when I get back home from a business trip.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

zal, looking back, I think part of the problem I was having was the ILF-converted Axis. So I may have misspoken about the issue back then.


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## Ar-Pe-Lo (Oct 16, 2011)

Zal

So 1380 is so common these days that on current asian games not only no one shot 1380+ (Lee was very close with 1377), but no one except 4 koreans shot over 1360....


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## zal (May 1, 2007)

Ar-Pe-Lo said:


> Zal
> 
> So 1380 is so common these days that on current asian games not only no one shot 1380+ (Lee was very close with 1377), but no one except 4 koreans shot over 1360....


You need to take a peek at Korean business league scores. They are sometimes frightening.

I didn't say common, but constantly. What I mean it's not a fluke anymore if someone shoots over 1380. Maybe matter of semantics, english is after all my 4th language...


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## Ar-Pe-Lo (Oct 16, 2011)

zal said:


> You need to take a peek at Korean business league scores. They are sometimes frightening.
> 
> I didn't say common, but constantly. What I mean it's not a fluke anymore if someone shoots over 1380. Maybe matter of semantics, english is after all my 4th language...


Ok my 2nd  yes I know there have been shot more then 1x, but only 2 guys in history...I would say it's very rare still


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