# Louisiana and the Crossbow, Part II



## doctariAFC

Ok. Since this pertains to legislation, we are starting a new thread for the service of Louisiana Sportsmen, and other hunters who would desire to hunt in Louisiana. I will make clear the rules of this debate right now. Anyone found in violation of these rules shall be cut off, with an EOP action taken against them. We are interested only in facts. Therefore, follow these easy to understand rules, and all will be well:

*1 - ALL arguments presented must be based in FACT, not soley opinion.

Facts are statistcs gathered from LFWD, USF&W and legitimate hunter surveys. Saying "My Club asked our members" kind of thing doesn't wash as a Primary Fact. You may use something of this nature to bolster your facts, but this in and of itself is NOT a fact.
Facts are also defined as information from other State DNRs and USF&W State specific reports which may present similar information applicable to LA. For instance, using Georgia's collected data to reinforce crossbows, or Ohio's declining hunter population to state against crossbow.
Facts are NOT personal experience, conjecture on the dedication of a specific group of hunters, etc.
2 - We will tolerate absolutely NO NAME CALLING. We run the legislative section with more CLASS and civility than the US Congress. We are all sportsmen and your behavior REFLECTS UPON YOU. If you behave poorly, you cast a bad light on your position. We will have no name calling and emotional rants for or against crossbows. This includes hunters too lazy, slobs, etc., for wanting to use a crossbow. This also includes calling folks bigots and practicing apartheid in response to the anti-crossbow statements.

3 - NO one will challenge the moderator. I am interested in education, and education of hunters on the larger issues. Challenge the moderator, and get summarily booted from the Legislation Section. I would sincerely hope that Hunting Rights and Legislation is a very important arena for ALL hunters, therefore, I would certainly believe all of you will do what it takes (follow the rules) to continue to remain informed and help protect our rights and heritage from the true enemies, the ARAs and Enviro wackos that continue to assault our rights. I run a pretty fair debate, but if you disintegrate into low-life, classless drivel, you will be gone.

4 - If anyone has any questions, or requests some FACTS (reports from USF&W) or an understanding of the data, please ask, I am here to help get folks educated.*
If we are all clear on the rules, then let us begin with a debate on the FACTS. Check your emotions at the door.


----------



## Marvin

Doc, I gotta admit, you got a ot of tolerance( or skin thicker than an elephant).... you a good man. ( thats a fact by the way:wink: )


----------



## PMantle

Since no one addressed this in the other thread, I'll repost.

For those of you demanding facts, I have some questions. What do you believe the facts presented thus far mean? Is La. losing bowhunters? If so, why is it do you think? Do you think guys are successful at the sport, then just quit? If they are successful archers but quit, why would a crossbow bring them back? If they are not successful and quit, and the crossbow is no easier to shoot than a compound, then why would the quitter come back to use a weapon no easier or more effective than the one that made them leave?

*** This is your first warning. The rules are clearly defined. Participate in the debate with facts. Otherwise, its hasta la vista, baby.... doctariAFC ***


----------



## Engelsmung

*Queries:*

1. What State senator or representative is planning to introduce legislation to allow non-disabled hunters to use the crossbow in archery season?

2. Is there a hunters group or organization advocating introduction of unfettered crossbow use in La?

3. What problems does the state have that would be solved by introducing crossbows into the current archery season?

4. What affect would this have on the difficult issue of access to hunting property, which even the moderator concedes is a severe problem in La?

5. Lastly, I can't remember if this is a fiscal only year, or if the legislature will consider all bills? After Katrina and Rita, who knows whether they will have much time to devote to such plebian issues, as they try to resolve the disastrous impact to the budget, and the monstrous needs of the affected communities.


----------



## PMantle

PMantle said:


> Since no one addressed this in the other thread, I'll repost.
> 
> For those of you demanding facts, I have some questions. What do you believe the facts presented thus far mean? Is La. losing bowhunters? If so, why is it do you think? Do you think guys are successful at the sport, then just quit? If they are successful archers but quit, why would a crossbow bring them back? If they are not successful and quit, and the crossbow is no easier to shoot than a compound, then why would the quitter come back to use a weapon no easier or more effective than the one that made them leave?
> 
> *** This is your first warning. The rules are clearly defined. Participate in the debate with facts. Otherwise, its hasta la vista, baby.... doctariAFC ***


Can you tell all of us viewing why questions get a warning?


----------



## doctariAFC

PMantle said:


> Can you tell all of us viewing why questions get a warning?


Sure..... The statement "For those of you demanding facts...." says it all.


----------



## Engelsmung

*OK, I answered #5 myself...*

2006 is a general session for the La Legislature, at which anything BUT taxes can be considered. So this year crossbow bills could be filed.

http://www.legis.state.la.us/


----------



## PMantle

doctariAFC said:


> Sure..... The statement "For those of you demanding facts...." says it all.


I don't get it. Can the questions be asked without that statement?


----------



## doctariAFC

PMantle said:


> I don't get it. Can the questions be asked without that statement?


This statement is geared specifically to discredit any facts before they are presented. Further, this discussion is about legalizing crossbows in LA, or not to. The fun part is actually doing the work needed to get the proper factual information to base a position or decision.

I couldn't disagree more with your last statement concerning how the facts can show what will happen. If you would like, PM me, and I will porovide you guidance on how to do this.

Now :focus:


----------



## PMantle

doctariAFC said:


> I couldn't disagree more with your last statement concerning how the facts can show what will happen. If you would like, PM me, and I will porovide you guidance on how to do this.
> 
> Now :focus:


I made no such statement.


----------



## doctariAFC

PMantle said:


> Since no one addressed this in the other thread, I'll repost.
> 
> For those of you demanding facts, I have some questions. What do you believe the facts presented thus far mean? Is La. losing bowhunters? If so, why is it do you think? Do you think guys are successful at the sport, then just quit? If they are successful archers but quit, why would a crossbow bring them back? If they are not successful and quit, and the crossbow is no easier to shoot than a compound, then why would the quitter come back to use a weapon no easier or more effective than the one that made them leave?
> 
> *** This is your first warning. The rules are clearly defined. Participate in the debate with facts. Otherwise, its hasta la vista, baby.... doctariAFC ***


Really? This entire statement is based on what you feel, not the facts. You position this in a light to basically say, well the facts do not matter, what's it gonna tell us? You suppose people are quitting for reasons which you DO NOT KNOW. Then in the same breath you make the generalization that the facts don't matter.

Please, Pmantle, I have walked too many roads and dealt with too many issues to be buffaloed. Hey, I live in Buffalo 

Let'r roll up our sleeves, dig into the facts, and if we need to do a bit more work (like hunter attitude surveys) then let's do it. You want to do this 1st of March on my website? I'll put up a poll specifically geared for Louisiana Hunters, if you make that request. I track IP addreses to secure the voting to one per IP. The crossbow poll I conducted over the summer for NYS was written up in Statewide publications and many local newspapers. I'm game if you're game...


----------



## PMantle

doctariAFC said:


> Really? This entire statement is based on what you feel, not the facts. You position this in a light to basically say, well the facts do not matter, what's it gonna tell us? You suppose people are quitting for reasons which you DO NOT KNOW. Then in the same breath you make the generalization that the facts don't matter.
> 
> Please, Pmantle, I have walked too many roads and dealt with too many issues to be buffaloed. Hey, I live in Buffalo
> 
> Let'r roll up our sleeves, dig into the facts, and if we need to do a bit more work (like hunter attitude surveys) then let's do it. You want to do this 1st of March on my website? I'll put up a poll specifically geared for Louisiana Hunters, if you make that request. I track IP addreses to secure the voting to one per IP. The crossbow poll I conducted over the summer for NYS was written up in Statewide publications and many local newspapers. I'm game if you're game...


Dude, those are questions. There is no statement in there. If you see one, you are assuming things. The questions are legitimate in that they must have factual answers, and I don't know the answers.

A vote? Why? What if you asked gun hunters if it would be good to add more days to the gun season? Would you get many "no's"? I have no idea what the outcome would be, but game rules and laws only exist for one reason. To control what people do and take, because people/hunters will not control themselves. A popular vote on weapon issues does not equate with what is best for the environment. That is a fact.


----------



## doctariAFC

PMantle said:


> Dude, those are questions. There is no statement in there. If you see one, you are assuming things. The questions are legitimate in that they must have factual answers, and I don't know the answers.
> 
> A vote? Why? What if you asked gun hunters if it would be good to add more days to the gun season? Would you get many "no's"? I have no idea what the outcome would be, but game rules and laws only exist for one reason. To control what people do and take, because people/hunters will not control themselves. A popular vote on weapon issues does not equate with what is best for the environment. That is a fact.


Bring up some facts. More hunters in the woods, controlling deer populations and observing what is happening in specific ecosystems is nothing but beneficial to the environment. I can back this up with many articles and studies from respected biologists, including the Boone & Crocket rep, and many, many Nature Conservancy directors, Wildlife Biologists from various State DNRs and DECs. Where is your back up to this statement?

Now :focus:


----------



## PMantle

doctariAFC said:


> Bring up some facts. More hunters in the woods, controlling deer populations and observing what is happening in specific ecosystems is nothing but beneficial to the environment. I can back this up with many articles and studies from respected biologists, including the Boone & Crocket rep, and many, many Nature Conservancy directors, Wildlife Biologists from various State DNRs and DECs. Where is your back up to this statement?
> 
> Now :focus:


The back up is, not ALL ecosystems actually benefit from more hunters in the woods. Not ALL deer populations are in need of additional control. Some are already being controlled adequately, or even receiving more control that what the environ can handle. 

Sure, there are many populations in La. that are not being controlled properly, but those are private lands, and the owners/lessees are choosing to mismanage the herds there. I have lived it. Guys given doe tags and refusing to use them. Stuff like that. No legislation is going to change those people, only education will. I would love to find an area in La. needing additional deer control. When I do, Engelsmung and I will get to controlling.


----------



## doctariAFC

PMantle said:


> The back up is, not ALL ecosystems actually benefit from more hunters in the woods. Not ALL deer populations are in need of additional control. Some are already being controlled adequately, or even receiving more control that what the environ can handle.
> 
> Sure, there are many populations in La. that are not being controlled properly, but those are private lands, and the owners/lessees are choosing to mismanage the herds there. I have lived it. Guys given doe tags and refusing to use them. Stuff like that. No legislation is going to change those people, only education will. I would love to find an area in La. needing additional deer control. When I do, Engelsmung and I will get to controlling.


So, the FACT that @ 370,000 folks hunted in LA in 1996, then in 2001, the number dropped to 333,000 doesn't equate to a lessening of the sportsmen's ability to properly care for the conservation efforts in LA? REALLY??? Based on average spend in state of @ $1100.00 per year per hunter, this equates to a LOSS of $40.7 MILLION to the LA State economy in 5 years. I haven';t compiled the numbers yet for the period 2001 - 2006. NOw, if I really do some number crunching, we figure the % loss of license sales AND the lost gear and equipment sales to come up with the $ figure your own State's CONSERVATION FUND has lost.

If that doesn't glare at you as being a major issue to LA's ability to practice conservation efforts, you've got some deeper issues....


----------



## Engelsmung

doctariAFC said:


> So, the FACT that @ 370,000 folks hunted in LA in 1996, then in 2001, the number dropped to 333,000 doesn't equate to a lessening of the sportsmen's ability to properly care for the conservation efforts in LA? REALLY??? Based on average spend in state of @ $1100.00 per year per hunter, this equates to a LOSS of $40.7 MILLION to the LA State economy in 5 years. I haven';t compiled the numbers yet for the period 2001 - 2006. NOw, if I really do some number crunching, we figure the % loss of license sales AND the lost gear and equipment sales to come up with the $ figure your own State's CONSERVATION FUND has lost.
> 
> If that doesn't glare at you as being a major issue to LA's ability to practice conservation efforts, you've got some deeper issues....


So, logically, using these "facts" as a basis for your propostion, the legislation allowing crossbows into the existing archery season will add "new" hunters to the equation, and stop the current loss of numbers? Folks who are currently not hunting will, solely b/c they can now use crossbow, start hunting and spending to benefit the state economy? The impact of people already hunting, but using guns, who now switch to crossbows to take advantage of the extended archery season would be negligible?

Curious question: Is a hunter like me, who used to buy small game, big game, duck stamp, archery, turkey stamp, and muzzleloader(not really), considered one hunter, or 6? Now that I've got a lifetime license, am I being counted?


----------



## doctariAFC

Engelsmung said:


> So, logically, using these "facts" as a basis for your propostion, the legislation allowing crossbows into the existing archery season will add "new" hunters to the equation, and stop the current loss of numbers? Folks who are currently not hunting will, solely b/c they can now use crossbow, start hunting and spending to benefit the state economy? The impact of people already hunting, but using guns, who now switch to crossbows to take advantage of the extended archery season would be negligible?
> 
> Curious question: Is a hunter like me, who used to buy small game, big game, duck stamp, archery, turkey stamp, and muzzleloader(not really), considered one hunter, or 6? Now that I've got a lifetime license, am I being counted?


According to how the USF&W survey works, you are counted ONCE. THey give a tremendous breakdown, including those who fish only, hunt only, and do both. This is why I prefer to use USF&W reports, versus some state provided numbers. This preference is based on my experience with my own state's "creative reporting". Nearly one year ago, today (2/4/05) I sat in a public meeting concerning many proposed changes to NY's southern zone deer season. Actually, more changes were made to other seasons as well, like pheasant and bear and turkey, but the noise-maker was deer. The DEC tried to tell us that we had over 800,000+ deer hunters in NYS. The actual number was just under 700,000 TOTAL hunters. They were counting the licenses twice, or three times depending on stamps (reg, archery, muzzie). I called them out on it. They then revised their numbers to reflect the grand total of 624,000 deer hunters, all stamps included, countig each stamp holder as one instead of 3. This year, we experienced a 5% decline, again. The number of deer hunters in NYS is now below 600,000. 

To answer the question of whether crossbows will ADD and/ or retain hunters, we need to look at the FACTS. The facts we will need to tear apart include figures from other states who have recently added crossbows, plus we may wish to consider what happened to archery hunting when the compound bow was allowed. I seem to recall the number of archers doubling in the USA when the compound bow was allowed. 

We have much work to do. Let's find the facts, compile them, and get educated.

Finally, once the facts are on the table, and well understood, a plan must be created and WORKED to assure success. Nothing ever happens by simply passing a law, and I think everyone knows this one, but I could be wrong. However, understanding the facts delivers sound planning for the future... IMO.


----------



## progers

Engelsmung said:


> 1. What State senator or representative is planning to introduce legislation to allow non-disabled hunters to use the crossbow in archery season?
> 
> 2. Is there a hunters group or organization advocating introduction of unfettered crossbow use in La?
> 
> 3. What problems does the state have that would be solved by introducing crossbows into the current archery season?
> 
> 4. What affect would this have on the difficult issue of access to hunting property, which even the moderator concedes is a severe problem in La?
> 
> 5. Lastly, I can't remember if this is a fiscal only year, or if the legislature will consider all bills? After Katrina and Rita, who knows whether they will have much time to devote to such plebian issues, as they try to resolve the disastrous impact to the budget, and the monstrous needs of the affected communities.



#1. That is still to be descided for it has only been a a couple of weeks and we are still writing some of them. We have had interesting responses from them.


#2. NO. not to my knowledge. We started a "coalition" if you will of a few fellow hunters that choose to hunt with all types of weapons for the excitement and challange of the hunt. We have received some "educational" facts from the crossbow community but, never active support on making crossbows legal in LA, per say. We are on our own. 


#3. First, it will give hunters the right to hunt ALL game with a crossbow. As it stands now, only whitetails can be hunted by handicap and/or seniors. We are not allowed to hunt hog, coyotes, rabbits or any other animals. If we buy a crossbow, all we can do is target practice. Next, it will help end the prejudice that is directed towards the crossbow hunting communities amoungst all the great States.


#4. I personally don't think it will make an impact at all on hunting land. But, neither of us can provide facts at this time to back our opinions up. All I can tell you as that a deer can spook from a hunter carrying a compound just as easy as it can with a hunter carrying a crossbow or a hunter carrying a shotgun, as they all smell the same. 

It will take more away from squirrel hunting as those people are already in the woods during archery season anyway. Those are the firearm hunters that hunt deer. If they are already in the woods, how can changing the shotgun to a crossbow to hunt whitetails hurt anything. Actually, it will make the woods "quieter".

#5. If not this year then, the next or the next, etc....


We are here for the long haul. :beer:


----------



## Marvin

*Fact*

Ohio lost roughly 60,000 hunters in the 90's. We have had the crossbow all along.


----------



## doctariAFC

Marvin said:


> Ohio lost roughly 60,000 hunters in the 90's. We have had the crossbow all along.


You are correct. Ohio has had the crossbow since the 1970's? Another dynamic is at play in Ohio. Partly the Anti's, partly a willing state government, partly diminishing access and partly development. I think Ohio is a great case study to examine when it comes to sportsmen apathy concerning all of the above. This is not unique to Ohio. Sportsman apathy is responsible for a great many negative changes to our beloved sports.

I will have to tear apart Ohio, as well, and yes, I have those state-specific numbers too


----------



## progers

*LA deer habitat reviews....*

LA farms and land info... 

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 

Louisiana is richly endowed with such nonrenewable minerals as oil, natural gas, sulfur, and salt. In addition to mining, the state has flourishing agricultural, lumbering, and fishing industries. These activities provide the basis for much of the manufacturing in Louisiana. 


3 subregions of LA: 
--------------------- 
Louisiana lies wholly within the gulf portion of the Coastal Plain, which is one of the principal natural regions, or physiographic provinces, of the United States. The Gulf Coastal Plain can be divided into three subregions, or sections, all of which lie partly within Louisiana. They are, from east to west, the East Gulf Coastal Plain, the Mississippi Alluvial Plain, and the West Gulf Coastal Plain. 



1. The Mississippi Alluvial Plain in Louisiana extends from the Louisiana-Arkansas border in the north to the Gulf of Mexico in the south and parallels the main channel of the Mississippi River. In Louisiana the region is commonly referred to as “the Delta,” a term that, in local usage, is not confined to the delta at the mouth of the Mississippi River. 

Along the banks of the Mississippi and other rivers are natural levees, which have been built up from river silts deposited by floods. The levees rise as much as 4.5 m (15 ft) above the general level of the surrounding plain, although most are about 2 to 3 m (about 6 to 10 ft) high. The levees, some of which are very wide, include some of the state’s best farmland. 


2. The West Gulf Coastal Plain, west of the Mississippi Alluvial Plain, occupies the western half of Louisiana. Hilly regions, often with steep bluffs 90 m (300 ft) high, mark the transitional zone between this region and the Mississippi Alluvial Plain. The northern and north central areas of this region are primarily areas of rolling hill country, much of it still heavily forested. 

The most prominent features of the hill country include Driskill Mountain and the Kisatchie Hills. Farther south are extensive areas of prairie, or grassland, which lie mainly along the southeastern bank of the middle course of the Calcasieu River. In the southern part of the West Gulf Coastal Plain, marshlands rim the coast and extend inland as much as 30 km (20 mi). 


3. The East Gulf Coastal Plain, a small area east of the Mississippi, is similar to its counterpart in western Louisiana. Steep bluffs as much as 90 m (300 ft) above sea level occur in the Tunica Hills of West Feliciana Parish. The rest of the region is lower in elevation with numerous steep bluffs, clear springs, pine forests, and deep ravines. 


CLIMATE: 
The climate of all the major regions of Louisiana is characterized by short mild winters and long, hot, and generally humid summers. Average January temperatures range from less than 8°C (46°F) in northwestern Louisiana to more than 13°C (55°F) in the southeastern delta country. Temperatures in the -20°s C (below 0°F) have been recorded, but prolonged periods of cold weather are extremely rare. 

GROWING SEASON: 
Throughout most of Louisiana the growing season, or period from the last major frost in spring to the first major frost in fall, is more than 210 days. In most of the state it varies in length from 210 up to 260 days, but along the lower Mississippi as many as 350 days may be frost free. In some decades there have been entire winters during which damaging frosts have not occurred in farming areas in the southernmost sections of the state. 

PLANT LIFE: 
Forest land occupies 50 percent of the total land area of Louisiana. Trees once covered nearly all of Louisiana, but since the late 18th, and especially in the late 19th and early 20th centuries, large areas have been cleared for agriculture and other uses. Much of the forest land is covered by second-growth or third-growth timber. 


WILDLIFE: 
The southern marshes and swamps of Louisiana are the home of a wide variety of animals. White-tailed deer are abundant throughout the state. A few black bears remain in the more remote parts of the swamps; muskrat, mink, and raccoon are also found there. Among the scarce small mammals are the wildcat, gray fox, beaver, otter, and weasel. Common small mammals include the opossum, cottontail, marsh rabbit, and gray squirrel. 

CONSERVATION: 
Soil erosion is a problem in Louisiana only in the hilly northwest, but continuous cotton cultivation has resulted in a general reduction in soil fertility throughout the state. Where serious soil erosion has occurred, the land has been taken out of cultivation and converted to pastureland or forest land. In less severely eroded areas, contour plowing, strip-cropping, and other soil conservation practices are used to help reduce runoff. To restore soil fertility, crop rotation has replaced continuous cotton cropping. 

It is estimated that almost 2 million hectares (5 million acres) of land in Louisiana was reforested from the mid-1940s to the mid-1990s. Most of the new trees have been planted on privately owned commercial forest lands. In addition, some areas of public land have also been reforested. 

AGRICULTURE: 
Farmland occupies 3.2 million hectares (7.9 million acres), or 30 percent of the total area of Louisiana. Crops are raised on 65 percent of all farmland in the state. Most of the remaining farmland is used for pasture. 

Crops accounted for 65 percent of farm income in Louisiana in 2003. Cotton, sugarcane, soybeans, rice, and corn are the most important crops and were the top agricultural products overall in 1996, according to cash value. Soybeans for a time was the leading crop harvested but its production has recently declined. Livestock and livestock products accounted for 35 percent of all farm income in 2003. Poultry, broilers (young chickens used for meat), and eggs are the most economically important livestock. 

There were 27,200 farms in the state in 2004, averaging 117 hectares (289 acres) in size. The largest farms are the highly mechanized farms located in the Mississippi Alluvial Plain and in the sugar- and rice-producing areas of the West Gulf Coastal Plain. 

CROPS: 
The five leading crops are cotton, sugarcane, soybeans, rice, and corn. In 1997 Louisiana ranked sixth in the United States in production of cotton, second in sugarcane (behind Florida), and third in the production of rice (behind Arkansas and California). Cotton is grown primarily on the fertile bottomlands of the Mississippi and Red river valleys, and sugarcane chiefly on the bottomlands of the Mississippi Alluvial Plain south of Baton Rouge and west of New Orleans. The raising of soybeans, used mostly as livestock feed, increased rapidly from the early 1960s to become the most important crop in the 1970s and early 1980s but has since declined. Rice is grown on the prairie sections east of Lake Charles, in the West Gulf Coastal Plain. Another important crop is corn, which is used both for human consumption and as animal feed. 


and the info goes on and on: 
http://encarta.msn.com/encyclopedia_...Louisiana.html


----------



## PMantle

doctariAFC said:


> So, the FACT that @ 370,000 folks hunted in LA in 1996, then in 2001, the number dropped to 333,000 doesn't equate to a lessening of the sportsmen's ability to properly care for the conservation efforts in LA? REALLY??? Based on average spend in state of @ $1100.00 per year per hunter, this equates to a LOSS of $40.7 MILLION to the LA State economy in 5 years. I haven';t compiled the numbers yet for the period 2001 - 2006. NOw, if I really do some number crunching, we figure the % loss of license sales AND the lost gear and equipment sales to come up with the $ figure your own State's CONSERVATION FUND has lost.
> 
> If that doesn't glare at you as being a major issue to LA's ability to practice conservation efforts, you've got some deeper issues....


Let's assume those are actual facts. You do not do anything with them in your posts. You don't answer questions about the facts either. What do any of the assumed facts have to do with the crossbow debate? facts alone are worthless. Maybe if you woul duse them in a position there could be actual discussion of impact or lack there of. Now, we just have numbers.


----------



## Engelsmung

progers said:


> #1. That is still to be descided for it has only been a a couple of weeks and we are still writing some of them. We have had interesting responses from them.
> 
> 
> #2. NO. not to my knowledge. We started a "coalition" if you will of a few fellow hunters that choose to hunt with all types of weapons for the excitement and challange of the hunt. We have received some "educational" facts from the crossbow community but, never active support on making crossbows legal in LA, per say. We are on our own.
> 
> 
> #3. First, it will give hunters the right to hunt ALL game with a crossbow. As it stands now, only whitetails can be hunted by handicap and/or seniors. We are not allowed to hunt hog, coyotes, rabbits or any other animals. If we buy a crossbow, all we can do is target practice. Next, it will help end the prejudice that is directed towards the crossbow hunting communities amoungst all the great States.
> 
> 
> #4. I personally don't think it will make an impact at all on hunting land. But, neither of us can provide facts at this time to back our opinions up. All I can tell you as that a deer can spook from a hunter carrying a compound just as easy as it can with a hunter carrying a crossbow or a hunter carrying a shotgun, as they all smell the same.
> 
> It will take more away from squirrel hunting as those people are already in the woods during archery season anyway. Those are the firearm hunters that hunt deer. If they are already in the woods, how can changing the shotgun to a crossbow to hunt whitetails hurt anything. Actually, it will make the woods "quieter".
> 
> #5. If not this year then, the next or the next, etc....
> 
> 
> We are here for the long haul. :beer:


1. Like: "I'm sorry, but your letter was lost b/c there was no check attached.":tongue: 
2. No surprise there. I've never heard anyone complain about the status quo here.
3. Red Herring. We've been arguing over the introduction of crossbows into the deer archery season. The only other game I'd see any real interest for crossbows would be feral hogs, which can be hunted year round on private land.
4. ?
Ever been to Ville Platte or Deville? You can't cut into their squirrel season. I am surprised that the argument of more deer hunters in the woods would not "hurt anything". I suspect it would greatly increase the pressure on the deer. Worse, there'll be that many more squirrels to annoy me while I bowhunt. If you really want to help, push for a crossbow armadillo season.
5. Sounds like the annual attack on gamefish status of trout and redfish by commercial fishing interests. Their lobby is pretty stout, and they get stuffed every time. Good luck to you.


----------



## Jim C

Marvin said:


> Ohio lost roughly 60,000 hunters in the 90's. We have had the crossbow all along.


that may be correct-however, the OHIO DNR continues to claim (unrefuted by any facts from the opposition from what I have seen) that Xbows are more popular than compounds and xbows in ohio retain hunters.

Revival's daughter is a new hunter who was able to hunt in ohio only because crossbows are legal without a disability permit

the fact Marvin has stated really has no use in a debate over crossbows unless we have additional facts

1)IF it can be proved that the legalization of crossbows causes a LOSS of hunters-then the anti xbow forces have FACTs supporting their position. I have never even heard the most rabid of xbow excluders claim xbows have driven people out of hunting

2) IF the DNR is correct (the evidence can be gleened from surveys but there is no hard absolute undeniable facts on who uses a crossbow etc) that xbows retains hunters than the allowance of xbows has prevented that 60,000 number from being say 70,000

Several parks in cincinnati and at least one suburban village have legalized bows in areas that are unsafe for guns. The parks have recruited bowhunters and make them pass a proficiency test. IN the Village of Indian Hill, deer are a problem. Many homeowners have bought crossbows so they can hunt in the village-xbows are ideal for this due to the faster learning curve

I realize that such issues may not be relevant in LA but since Marvin mentioned Ohio I thought I would discuss the fact that xbows have brought more people into hunting even if some of those landowners DO NOT have to buy licenses because under Ohio law you can take certain game on your property without buying a license (though purchase of the equipment still generates R-P tax revenues)


----------



## Marvin

doctariAFC said:


> You are correct. Ohio has had the crossbow since the 1970's? Another dynamic is at play in Ohio. Partly the Anti's, partly a willing state government, partly diminishing access and partly development. I think Ohio is a great case study to examine when it comes to sportsmen apathy concerning all of the above. This is not unique to Ohio. Sportsman apathy is responsible for a great many negative changes to our beloved sports.
> 
> I will have to tear apart Ohio, as well, and yes, I have those state-specific numbers too


 do you know what would be neat to do is break down hunter loss/retention and try to compar it to averge land owner parcel size and see what the trend is. I think I can do it but realestate flips so fast its not funny. Ohio really is a pickle. It can be be used by both sides all be it weak in structure. State tax structure would be another possible thing to throw into the mix and relate that to average parcel size for each state and compare that to hutner numbers yadda yadda yadda...


----------



## Marvin

Jim C said:


> that may be correct-however, the OHIO DNR continues to claim (unrefuted by any facts from the opposition from what I have seen) that Xbows are more popular than compounds and xbows in ohio retain hunters.
> 
> Revival's daughter is a new hunter who was able to hunt in ohio only because crossbows are legal without a disability permit
> 
> the fact Marvin has stated really has no use in a debate over crossbows unless we have additional facts
> 
> 1)IF it can be proved that the legalization of crossbows causes a LOSS of hunters-then the anti xbow forces have FACTs supporting their position. I have never even heard the most rabid of xbow excluders claim xbows have driven people out of hunting
> 
> 2) IF the DNR is correct (the evidence can be gleened from surveys but there is no hard absolute undeniable facts on who uses a crossbow etc) that xbows retains hunters than the allowance of xbows has prevented that 60,000 number from being say 70,000
> 
> Several parks in cincinnati and at least one suburban village have legalized bows in areas that are unsafe for guns. The parks have recruited bowhunters and make them pass a proficiency test. IN the Village of Indian Hill, deer are a problem. Many homeowners have bought crossbows so they can hunt in the village-xbows are ideal for this due to the faster learning curve
> 
> I realize that such issues may not be relevant in LA but since Marvin mentioned Ohio I thought I would discuss the fact that xbows have brought more people into hunting even if some of those landowners DO NOT have to buy licenses because under Ohio law you can take certain game on your property without buying a license (though purchase of the equipment still generates R-P tax revenues)




your really unreal. this isn't about the xbow is it Jim. nice to see you never give up. Your #1 fact is laughable. Nice try on #2 pure speculation and that is unmeasurable and you know it. stick to facts and not assumptions. brought more people into hunting...really and your source is what?


----------



## progers

*The 00' - 05' deer season stats for LA:*

The 00' - 05' deer season stats for LA:

*Resident Lic. down (-17,067)
Senior Lic. up (+31,588)
*Archery Lic. down (-4128)
MZL Lic. up (+4725)
Total Hunter #'s up (+18,000) which is out of state hunters
Est. deer kills up (+7100)
DMAP doe kills up (+11)
Mod. firearm hunters up (+17,300)
Mod. firearm deer kills up (+6500)
Archery Equipped hunters up (+7200) which include xbows
*Archery Equipped deer kills down (-1400) which include xbows
MZL hunters up (+16,800)
MZL deer kills up (+2900)


an (*) marks the ones we are falling behind on.

Note. on the sheet is one error. The Big Game license is declining. The number is correct, just put a "minus" by it in the third list..(-17,067)


----------



## doctariAFC

Marvin said:


> do you know what would be neat to do is break down hunter loss/retention and try to compar it to averge land owner parcel size and see what the trend is. I think I can do it but realestate flips so fast its not funny. Ohio really is a pickle. It can be be used by both sides all be it weak in structure. State tax structure would be another possible thing to throw into the mix and relate that to average parcel size for each state and compare that to hutner numbers yadda yadda yadda...


Yes it is, and that would be an excellent study to undertake. We really need to nail down the issues and challenges. I think folks are seeing how I operate. I like having as much fact as I possibly can. Makes for supporting any position far more effective.

In terms of Ohio, you guys have lost 60,000 hunters in the past 4+ years. According to the USF&W surveys, Ohio hunters from 1996 to 2001 actually increased in participation by roughly 28,000 new hunters. This was an overall increase, driven by more anglers picking up a shotgun/ bow. Evidenced as follows:

1996 - Hunted only - 172,000; Hunted and Fished - 281,000 - Total 453K
2001 - Hunted only - 122,000; Hunted and Fished - 359,000 - Total 481K

Indeed, this seems eerily similar to NYS numbers. From 1996 to 2001 we also posted an increase of 11% in overall hunter numbers, again driven by an additional 100,000 anglers also picking up a shotgun/ bow. However, where we began seeing the issues/ early warning signs between 1996 ans 2001, in young hunters. In 1996, NY hunters total - 10% were in the age group 12-15. Smalll game hunters. In 2001 - number of young hunters was 0% (same age group)! SPortsmen ignored this trend, and we are now reaping this harvest. I have a funny feeling Ohio is in the same boat.

But I digress..... :focus:


----------



## cynic

No state records indicate a detrament to hunter or game by legalizing the use of the xbow. P&Y in 2003 decided that they were losing revenue and adopted the 80% letoff but penalized the archer by the dreaded *. If P&Y is smart enough to accept changes for revenue and support the change of there own traditional policy, why can't we. With shrinking #'s of hunters so is the funds for doing improvement, research and land acquisistion. Wouldn't it stand to reason that more revenue generated could possibly mean more and better opportunity. basic license+bg license+archer+xbow permit= more money for the state. All facts on this issue are brought to the table by what is going on in other states. They are speculative as no two states are the same. Only in comparing the many states are we able to come up with the hypothesis that it will help La hunters also. All facts/statistics point in this direction. To say that the crossbow is different is like say all compounds are the same.


----------



## Jim C

Marvin said:


> your really unreal. this isn't about the xbow is it Jim. nice to see you never give up. Your #1 fact is laughable. Nice try on #2 pure speculation and that is unmeasurable and you know it. stick to facts and not assumptions. brought more people into hunting...really and your source is what?



I mentioned Brad's daughter-and I know 14 property owners in Indian HIll who called me for advice on crossbows to buy so they could hunt deer on their properties

do you have any facts showing xbows caused in any way the loss of hunters

you have no facts-I noted that the DNR position is based on educated predictions-which is the same way they measure the amount of deer in the Ohio herd

ball's in your court marvin-please prove your assertion and then prove that it is relevant to the xbow issue


----------



## Engelsmung

progers said:


> The 00' - 05' deer season stats for LA:
> 
> *Resident Lic. down (-17,067)
> Senior Lic. up (+31,588)
> *Archery Lic. down (-4128)
> MZL Lic. up (+4725)
> Total Hunter #'s up (+18,000) which is out of state hunters
> Est. deer kills up (+7100)
> DMAP doe kills up (+11)
> Mod. firearm hunters up (+17,300)
> Mod. firearm deer kills up (+6500)
> Archery Equipped hunters up (+7200) which include xbows
> *Archery Equipped deer kills down (-1400) which include xbows
> MZL hunters up (+16,800)
> MZL deer kills up (+2900)
> 
> 
> an (*) marks the ones we are falling behind on.
> 
> Note. on the sheet is one error. The Big Game license is declining. The number is correct, just put a "minus" by it in the third list..(-17,067)


Hmmm, gunhunters up, including muzzleloaders, gunkills up, archery hunters up...this seems to reverse the trend cited in the USF&W report from 1996-2001? However, gunhunters and gunkills up, archery kills down(even w/the x-bow). Golly, this almost supports Pmantle and my view of the situation(ie. more gunhunting equals less opportunity for bowhunters). Given these facts, derived from the LaDWF, why would the addition of crossbows help the situation? Oh right, create more "archery hunters" out of the existing gunhunters, and create more "archery" kills, thus relegating the current bowhunter to second class status, competing against not an easier weapon, but one that somehow is more popular, despite being as difficult to use as a compound. Boy, the "facts" tend to confuse me.

Why would the current non-hunter(female, kid, novice) choose a crossbow to get into the sport as opposed to a gun? Aren't we cannibalising ourselves, instead of getting new folks into the sport?


----------



## progers

*projectile fps chart*












Fact: Comparing the time it takes an arrow from a crossbow to hit a target at 30 yards, vs. a compound.

This number is a number based solely on FPS from the second of departure to the target and does not reflect the decreased time due to resistance. We will be fair and use a "faster" xbow against a "slower" cbow.



fired at target at 30 yards:
----------------------------------

xbow at 350fps - .2571428 seconds

cbow at 260fps - .3461538 seconds
______________________________

Conclusion: an 350fps xbow shot at at target at 30 yards will reach the target at a speed of ***(0.089011)*** seconds faster than a 260fps compound.


----------



## progers

Engelsmung said:


> Hmmm, gunhunters up, including muzzleloaders, gunkills up, archery hunters up...this seems to reverse the trend cited in the USF&W report from 1996-2001? However, gunhunters and gunkills up, archery kills down(even w/the x-bow). Golly, this almost supports Pmantle and my view of the situation(ie. more gunhunting equals less opportunity for bowhunters). Given these facts, derived from the LaDWF, why would the addition of crossbows help the situation? Oh right, create more "archery hunters" out of the existing gunhunters, and create more "archery" kills, thus relegating the current bowhunter to second class status, competing against not an easier weapon, but one that somehow is more popular, despite being as difficult to use as a compound. Boy, the "facts" tend to confuse me.
> 
> Why would the current non-hunter(female, kid, novice) choose a crossbow to get into the sport as opposed to a gun? Aren't we cannibalising ourselves, instead of getting new folks into the sport?




Yes, gun hunters, mzl hunters and archery "equipped" numbers are rising as the number of big game license decline. That means one thing: The hunters that are staying are wanting to try NEW things and they are willing to spend their hard earned dollars on the sport since they have the RIGHT to choose different means of taking game.

Overall, hunter numbers are declining. Deer kills are rising but, not near what the "quota" or estimated deer kills are rising. We must keep up with the growing population of deer here in LA as deer are relativitly new here and we have a prime habitat in LA for the deer to thrive. Archery license sales are rapidly falling, year after year.

It would be safe to say that a majority of the "archers" you speak of came from the "existing" gun hunters as most of us start out hunting with a gun.


----------



## doctariAFC

Engelsmung said:


> Hmmm, gunhunters up, including muzzleloaders, gunkills up, archery hunters up...this seems to reverse the trend cited in the USF&W report from 1996-2001? However, gunhunters and gunkills up, archery kills down(even w/the x-bow). Golly, this almost supports Pmantle and my view of the situation(ie. more gunhunting equals less opportunity for bowhunters). Given these facts, derived from the LaDWF, why would the addition of crossbows help the situation? Oh right, create more "archery hunters" out of the existing gunhunters, and create more "archery" kills, thus relegating the current bowhunter to second class status, competing against not an easier weapon, but one that somehow is more popular, despite being as difficult to use as a compound. Boy, the "facts" tend to confuse me.
> 
> Why would the current non-hunter(female, kid, novice) choose a crossbow to get into the sport as opposed to a gun? Aren't we cannibalising ourselves, instead of getting new folks into the sport?


LA Hunters who hunt out of state predominantly. They are buying a license in LA but focusing their major hunting actvities outside of LA. After all, one needs proof of eligibility to purchase a hunting license in most states, and most states accept your home state license as ample proof. I would like to further delve into this one, however, in 2001, non-resident hunters made up 11% of the total hunters who hunted in LA. Contrast, 27% of LA hunter license holders hunted out of State. That facet is very interesting, and perhaps should also be explored.


----------



## Marvin

Jim C said:


> I mentioned Brad's daughter-and I know 14 property owners in Indian HIll who called me for advice on crossbows to buy so they could hunt deer on their properties
> 
> do you have any facts showing xbows caused in any way the loss of hunters
> 
> you have no facts-I noted that the DNR position is based on educated predictions-which is the same way they measure the amount of deer in the Ohio herd
> 
> ball's in your court marvin-please prove your assertion and then prove that it is relevant to the xbow issue



Court....funny. My post was to show that xbows don't increase hunter numbers jimmy. crossbows driving hunters away hunters? :crazy: did you just make that one up on your own or what? Actually ODNR's prdictions are done from 5000 surveys sent out to hunters every 3 years i believe but I am sure you didn't know that. Facts seem to elude you. any enightenments as to way they are considering another weekend of gun season Jim...HHHmmmmm that will be an interesting tally at the end of the year. I bet your on pins an needles wanting for the reports to come out:tongue: :whoo:


----------



## Engelsmung

progers said:


> Archery license sales are rapidly falling, year after year.
> 
> It would be safe to say that a majority of the "archers" you speak of came from the "existing" gun hunters as most of us start out hunting with a gun.


I can not figure out why people quit archery hunting, when the state is being overwhelmed with all these deer. Could my own personal view(unsupported by any tables/surveys/statistics) that as bowhunter success decreases, people quit bowhunting? Archery kills are down per the tables, so why is that, when archery equipped hunter numbers are up? I'd say the first couple of year of x-bow in archery season would increase the "archery" numbers, hunters and kill, then the old decline would come back as the novelty wore off and there were less deer available for all hunters. To me, that's not improvement.


----------



## Marvin

doctariAFC said:


> Yes it is, and that would be an excellent study to undertake. We really need to nail down the issues and challenges. I think folks are seeing how I operate. I like having as much fact as I possibly can. Makes for supporting any position far more effective.
> 
> In terms of Ohio, you guys have lost 60,000 hunters in the past 4+ years. According to the USF&W surveys, Ohio hunters from 1996 to 2001 actually increased in participation by roughly 28,000 new hunters. This was an overall increase, driven by more anglers picking up a shotgun/ bow. Evidenced as follows:
> 
> 1996 - Hunted only - 172,000; Hunted and Fished - 281,000 - Total 453K
> 2001 - Hunted only - 122,000; Hunted and Fished - 359,000 - Total 481K
> 
> Indeed, this seems eerily similar to NYS numbers. From 1996 to 2001 we also posted an increase of 11% in overall hunter numbers, again driven by an additional 100,000 anglers also picking up a shotgun/ bow. However, where we began seeing the issues/ early warning signs between 1996 ans 2001, in young hunters. In 1996, NY hunters total - 10% were in the age group 12-15. Smalll game hunters. In 2001 - number of young hunters was 0% (same age group)! SPortsmen ignored this trend, and we are now reaping this harvest. I have a funny feeling Ohio is in the same boat.
> 
> But I digress..... :focus:





do you believe that the trend is somewhat cyclical Doctari (all be it downward in a lot of cases but cyclical none the less)? i have my concerns with Ohio. we are proposing another weekend of gun season two weeks after the close of teh regular gun season. they tried stuff like this about 10 years ago and it was a major flop so they dropped it. the numbers will be interesting when they come out.


----------



## Engelsmung

progers said:


> It would be safe to say that a majority of the "archers" you speak of came from the "existing" gun hunters as most of us start out hunting with a gun.


Agreed. While some hunters use bow/Muzz/rifle, as the season permits, La has a good number of purists who hunt bow only. They enjoy the challenge, and if they can afford it, get in a bowhunting only lease. If my dang daughter would apply herself in school, and get some scholarships, I might get into one of those prime leases. However, 'til then, it's public land for me.


----------



## Jim C

Marvin said:


> Court....funny. My post was to show that xbows don't increase hunter numbers jimmy. crossbows driving hunters away hunters? :crazy: did you just make that one up on your own or what? Actually ODNR's prdictions are done from 5000 surveys sent out to hunters every 3 years i believe but I am sure you didn't know that. Facts seem to elude you. any enightenments as to way they are considering another weekend of gun season Jim...HHHmmmmm that will be an interesting tally at the end of the year. I bet your on pins an needles wanting for the reports to come out:tongue: :whoo:



your analysis is not relevant marvin

You also are violating the rules here-again

the fact is there are plenty of reasons to support treating xbows the same as similar compound bows that transcend pure numbers

Your claim that we have lost 60K hunters is RELEVANT only if you can show either that without xbows in ohio that number would have Been DIFFERENT

you cannot


----------



## progers

Engelsmung said:


> I can not figure out why people quit archery hunting, when the state is being overwhelmed with all these deer. Could my own personal view(unsupported by any tables/surveys/statistics) that as bowhunter success decreases, people quit bowhunting? Archery kills are down per the tables, so why is that, when archery equipped hunter numbers are up? I'd say the first couple of year of x-bow in archery season would increase the "archery" numbers, hunters and kill, then the old decline would come back as the novelty wore off and there were less deer available for all hunters. To me, that's not improvement.



I don't know if they are actually quitting or not. My guess would be that probably the majority go out of state to hunt trophies. That is just an opinion and we will look into that futher. That could be why deer kill numbers are down?

As archery kills are still below "quota", they are actually rising compared to 2000-2001 figures. One can draw the conclusion that since Senior's numbers are up and archery "equipped" hunters are up as archery license are down, that xbows could very well be what is trying to get the archery deer kill "quota" going in the right direction. That is just speculation but, speculation that is backed by facts.

It seems that the youth in LA are loosing intrestest in the "bow season" that we know today?


----------



## Marvin

Jim C said:


> your analysis is not relevant marvin
> 
> You also are violating the rules here-again
> 
> the fact is there are plenty of reasons to support treating xbows the same as similar compound bows that transcend pure numbers
> 
> Your claim that we have lost 60K hunters is RELEVANT only if you can show either that without xbows in ohio that number would have Been DIFFERENT
> 
> you cannot



1 - ALL arguments presented must be based in FACT, not soley opinion.

* Facts are statistcs gathered from LFWD, USF&W and legitimate hunter surveys. Saying "My Club asked our members" kind of thing doesn't wash as a Primary Fact. You may use something of this nature to bolster your facts, but this in and of itself is NOT a fact.
* Facts are also defined as information from other State DNRs and USF&W State specific reports which may present similar information applicable to LA. For instance, using Georgia's collected data to reinforce crossbows, or Ohio's declining hunter population to state against crossbow.
* Facts are NOT personal experience, conjecture on the dedication of a specific group of hunters, etc.


----------



## progers

Engelsmung said:


> Agreed. While some hunters use bow/Muzz/rifle, as the season permits, La has a good number of purists who hunt bow only. They enjoy the challenge, and if they can afford it, get in a bowhunting only lease. If my dang daughter would apply herself in school, and get some scholarships, I might get into one of those prime leases. However, 'til then, it's public land for me.



You are correct, Engelsmung. "La has a good number of purists who hunt bow only."

Yes but, the numbers are dwindling. It appears that the youth are loosing intrest in bowhunting with compounds, recurves and longbows. We all are working to benifit the youths and hunting in our state. We are on the same team. 

------------------------------------------------------------------------

Off Topic Reply:

As far as your daughter goes, have you looked into the school system? Maybe that is the problem. Our school systems in LA is WAY LOW! We had the same problem with our 13 year old son and now, we homeschool. He is preceeding kids of his age now because of homeschooling.

Sorry for getting off topic but, the kids are our future.


----------



## progers

Marvin said:


> 1 - ALL arguments presented must be based in FACT, not soley opinion.
> 
> * Facts are statistcs gathered from LFWD, USF&W and legitimate hunter surveys. Saying "My Club asked our members" kind of thing doesn't wash as a Primary Fact. You may use something of this nature to bolster your facts, but this in and of itself is NOT a fact.
> * Facts are also defined as information from other State DNRs and USF&W State specific reports which may present similar information applicable to LA. For instance, using Georgia's collected data to reinforce crossbows, or Ohio's declining hunter population to state against crossbow.
> * Facts are NOT personal experience, conjecture on the dedication of a specific group of hunters, etc.




Fact: It's great to see you finally read the rules. Keep up the good work!

*** :nono: doctariAFC ***


----------



## doctariAFC

Jim C said:


> I mentioned Brad's daughter-and I know 14 property owners in Indian HIll who called me for advice on crossbows to buy so they could hunt deer on their properties
> 
> do you have any facts showing xbows caused in any way the loss of hunters
> 
> you have no facts-I noted that the DNR position is based on educated predictions-which is the same way they measure the amount of deer in the Ohio herd
> 
> ball's in your court marvin-please prove your assertion and then prove that it is relevant to the xbow issue


*** JimC. You're agruing for the sake of arguing here. Stay out of the personal one-upsmanship with Marvin. Marvin, please do the same. I want, no, I demand FACTS to back up claims and opinions here. Let's get the facts on the table and debate the whats and whys, not eachother's beliefs, no matter how tempting it may be. This drivel is distracting the rest of this debate from some very interesting and vital information being provided. doctariAFC ***


----------



## progers

progers said:


> Fact: It's great to see you finally read the rules. Keep up the good work!
> 
> *** :nono: doctariAFC ***




I apologize. That was not playing nice!


----------



## Marvin

doctariAFC said:


> *** JimC. You're agruing for the sake of arguing here. Stay out of the personal one-upsmanship with Marvin. Marvin, please do the same. I want, no, I demand FACTS to back up claims and opinions here. Let's get the facts on the table and debate the whats and whys, not eachother's beliefs, no matter how tempting it may be. This drivel is distracting the rest of this debate from some very interesting and vital information being provided. doctariAFC ***


 Ay Ay doctari Will do sir


----------



## doctariAFC

progers said:


> I apologize. That was not playing nice!


I am an EOP.... 

However, I will state this thus far. We are getting some very real insight into what is happening in LA out in the open. Let's keep up this effort. I think a lot of eyes will start opening up to what is happening "under the hood."

I am somewhat of a numbers guy. Before I got into IT/ IS management, I spent several years as a marketing analyst/ business manager, with the task of performing market share reviews and such based on consumption data (AC Nielsen and IRI data). This experience taught me a couple things. 

1 - Numbers do not lie
2 - You can see much from the proper chopping of numbers

It s not easy work, by any stretch. However, without examining the numbers (stats and historicals) we cannot even begin to intelligently know exactly where we stand, how we got there and the effects of the challenges at hand. Sure, we "know" the youth factor is playing a major role. How major a role? Varies state by state. We can certainly assume certain things by looking at average age of hunter, but, getting the numbers is far more accurate.

Keep it up, gentlemen. Let's get these facts on the table. Then let's discuss the facts. We will all be better off for it....


----------



## PMantle

progers said:


> You are correct, Engelsmung. "La has a good number of purists who hunt bow only."
> 
> Yes but, the numbers are dwindling. It appears that the youth are loosing intrest in bowhunting with compounds, recurves and longbows. We all are working to benifit the youths and hunting in our state. We are on the same team.
> 
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> QUOTE]
> 
> I have no idea if youth are losing interest in archery or not, but my observation is that archery is simply less popular among the young than firearms. I did not start until late in high school, and did not become serious about it until after law school. Engelsmung started even later. None of the many guys I know started bowhunting until later in life. It is pretty much the norm for hunters to go to archery later in life rather than as a young person, although it is not close to being a rule.


----------



## Marvin

progers said:


> Fact: Comparing the time it takes an arrow from a crossbow to hit a target at 30 yards, vs. a compound.
> 
> This number is a number based solely on FPS from the second of departure to the target and does not reflect the decreased time due to resistance. We will be fair and use a "faster" xbow against a "slower" cbow.
> 
> 
> 
> fired at target at 30 yards:
> ----------------------------------
> 
> xbow at 350fps - .2571428 seconds
> 
> cbow at 260fps - .3461538 seconds
> ______________________________
> 
> Conclusion: an 350fps xbow shot at at target at 30 yards will reach the target at a speed of ***(0.089011)*** seconds faster than a 260fps compound.




A question about your chart, What were the projectile weights for the crossbow and compound?


----------



## progers

PMantle said:


> progers said:
> 
> 
> 
> You are correct, Engelsmung. "La has a good number of purists who hunt bow only."
> 
> Yes but, the numbers are dwindling. It appears that the youth are loosing intrest in bowhunting with compounds, recurves and longbows. We all are working to benifit the youths and hunting in our state. We are on the same team.
> 
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> QUOTE]
> 
> I have no idea if youth are losing interest in archery or not, but my observation is that archery is simply less popular among the young than firearms. I did not start until late in high school, and did not become serious about it until after law school. Engelsmung started even later. None of the many guys I know started bowhunting until later in life. It is pretty much the norm for hunters to go to archery later in life rather than as a young person, although it is not close to being a rule.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> We are loosing youths in our sport. The numbers show that. They are dwindling in all aspects of hunting, archery, mzl, firearm season. We must work together to bring them back. Somehow, someway.
> 
> 
> Don't you agree?
Click to expand...


----------



## Marvin

progers said:


> PMantle said:
> 
> 
> 
> We are loosing youths in our sport. The numbers show that. They are dwindling in all aspects of hunting, archery, mzl, firearm season. We must work together to bring them back. Somehow, someway.
> 
> 
> Don't you agree?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> here is a question for everyone. why is losing youth now an issue but not 30 years ago? maybe that is asking for data that may not have been available at the time. not sure
Click to expand...


----------



## progers

Marvin said:


> A question about your chart, What were the projectile weights for the crossbow and compound?



These were based on FPS's of the better of both equipment. 

the chart shows how ALL BOWS compare to firearms as it was said that crossbows are more like firearms. 

We are working on a graph to compare accuracy of different lenght arrows and weights for xbows vs. cbows. In the end, they will be pretty much equal from what it looks as of now. I will get back to you later this week with these findings.


----------



## doctariAFC

PMantle said:


> progers said:
> 
> 
> 
> You are correct, Engelsmung. "La has a good number of purists who hunt bow only."
> 
> Yes but, the numbers are dwindling. It appears that the youth are loosing intrest in bowhunting with compounds, recurves and longbows. We all are working to benifit the youths and hunting in our state. We are on the same team.
> 
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> QUOTE]
> 
> I have no idea if youth are losing interest in archery or not, but my observation is that archery is simply less popular among the young than firearms. I did not start until late in high school, and did not become serious about it until after law school. Engelsmung started even later. None of the many guys I know started bowhunting until later in life. It is pretty much the norm for hunters to go to archery later in life rather than as a young person, although it is not close to being a rule.
> 
> 
> 
> This is an excellent question, and one that needs to be determined. A couple of questions on how LA handles youth hunters. I will put in context of NY.
> 
> Here in NY, a 14 year old can hunt big game (deer and bear) with a bow, but cannot hunt big game with a firearm until age 16. The 14 year old must be supervised when afield, but the first opportunity for kids is with the bow, not the gun (for big game, 12 years of age with firearms or bow for small game.)
> 
> Is this a similar scenario in LA?
> 
> How about Archery in School Programs, part of the NASP? What is happening with that in LA, if anything? I did a major article a little bit ago on Youth initiatives and had a focus on Wisconsin and NASP. This was a 6-state piece, and Wisconsins part was archery. Kids in middle school took a field trip to a rod & gun for archery and wildlife behavior instruction. Was very, very well attended. Anything happening there?
> 
> I think we need to know more about this piece, too. Let's dig out them facts... The more facts we get on the table, the better off we all will be.
Click to expand...


----------



## doctariAFC

Marvin said:


> progers said:
> 
> 
> 
> here is a question for everyone. why is losing youth now an issue but not 30 years ago? maybe that is asking for data that may not have been available at the time. not sure
> 
> 
> 
> This is only speculation, but 30 years ago the family unit was different, the hectic pace of life was different, and, above all, we may be easily distracted by the whole, and not understanding the parts that comprise the whole.
> 
> How many of us have heard from our respective State DNRs, DECs, F&Ws the total license sales for each year. We all have probably heard this type of stat at one time or another. We have aslo received some estimates concerning regular licenses, archery, and most recently (since the 1980's in many states) blackpowder, and of course trapping. Yet, how many of us have heard the total of YOUTH licenses sold? How many of us have received a breakdown of these licenses by age demographic? I would bet not too many.
> 
> Heck, how many of us out there knew the extent of the USF&W reports, which detail the demographics with some very good clarity and accuracy? The STate-specific USF&W reports weren't available until 1996, but the National also provides a breakdown.
> 
> Here's a hint for determining how your state ranks in the big picture. Take the National Report and examine the % of youth hunters, and if possible determine the National Trend. Then, compare this to your State-specific information. Are the numbers the same, % and trends? Or is one lower than the other? If the National Trend looks better than your state's trends, your state is underperforming. If not, your state is healthier than National, but should identify a "things to come" potential if we do not react appropriately as soon as possible.
Click to expand...


----------



## cynic

For any one of us to say why the numbers are declining is assumptive. The only way to find that out is to ask each of them. Each and all of us have changes in our life and cause us to pursue other avenues of pleasure. If the xbow is legalized are the traditional and xbow hunters going to quit? If the xbow is legalized will more hunters join the rank of archers? Who knows. This debate offers reasons why a xbow would a benefit by the pro's and land management issues by the anti's. So it sounds like xbows are okay and would be accepted if there was more area to hunt..?


----------



## Marvin

progers said:


> These were based on FPS's of the better of both equipment.
> 
> the chart shows how ALL BOWS compare to firearms as it was said that crossbows are more like firearms.
> 
> We are working on a graph to compare accuracy of different lenght arrows and weights for xbows vs. cbows. In the end, they will be pretty much equal from what it looks as of now. I will get back to you later this week with these findings.


 uh...I guess i have to disagree with you there. seems to be "unusable" data. its funny how they use bullet weights but the pulling and arrow lengths are not given. seems "fishy" ....not to start a debate but it is subjective.


----------



## cynic

IBO stardards are applicable.


----------



## Marvin

cynic said:


> For any one of us to say why the numbers are declining is assumptive. The only way to find that out is to ask each of them. Each and all of us have changes in our life and cause us to pursue other avenues of pleasure. If the xbow is legalized are the traditional and xbow hunters going to quit? If the xbow is legalized will more hunters join the rank of archers? Who knows. This debate offers reasons why a xbow would a benefit by the pro's and land management issues by the anti's. So it sounds like xbows are okay and would be accepted if there was more area to hunt..?


 to answer your question, maybe. not sure there is a catch all reply or answer to that. There are different people out there that have a vast array of opinions on the issue.


----------



## PMantle

cynic said:


> For any one of us to say why the numbers are declining is assumptive. The only way to find that out is to ask each of them. Each and all of us have changes in our life and cause us to pursue other avenues of pleasure. QUOTE]
> 
> Exactly. That's why most of the numbers brought into this thread as well as the charts, graphs and other facts, thus far, are basically worthless in any discussion about the pros or cons of legalization of the crossbow for all hunters in the early and late deer season in La. BTW, that is the only relevant topic in this thread, and a lot of us are getting off track.


----------



## Engelsmung

doctariAFC said:


> PMantle said:
> 
> 
> 
> This is an excellent question, and one that needs to be determined. A couple of questions on how LA handles youth hunters. I will put in context of NY.
> 
> Here in NY, a 14 year old can hunt big game (deer and bear) with a bow, but cannot hunt big game with a firearm until age 16. The 14 year old must be supervised when afield, but the first opportunity for kids is with the bow, not the gun (for big game, 12 years of age with firearms or bow for small game.)
> 
> Is this a similar scenario in LA?
> 
> How about Archery in School Programs, part of the NASP? What is happening with that in LA, if anything? I did a major article a little bit ago on Youth initiatives and had a focus on Wisconsin and NASP. This was a 6-state piece, and Wisconsins part was archery. Kids in middle school took a field trip to a rod & gun for archery and wildlife behavior instruction. Was very, very well attended. Anything happening there?
> 
> .
> 
> 
> 
> Ha Ha, I need to send you the pictures from our local newspapers showing 7-10 year olds with their first rifle killed deer...always w/a blood swipe on the cheek initiating them into the hunting fraternity. If your 5 yr old can pull the trigger, welcome to La hunting. No need for license until 16, and then mandatory hunter ed reqs. Take one hunter ed class at 10, and you're in for life. Life time licenses are cheaper the younger you are: $200 for ages 0-4, $300 for 4-13, $500 for 14 and above.
> 
> There are lots of youth oriented hunts on all the refuges, and they get to hunt the weekend before duck and deer season open for adults. There are a few programs, but the vast majority of youth recruitment is by friends and family.
Click to expand...


----------



## Marvin

cynic said:


> IBO stardards are applicable.


agreed. but it isn't stated so it does not apply


----------



## progers

cynic said:


> For any one of us to say why the numbers are declining is assumptive. The only way to find that out is to ask each of them. Each and all of us have changes in our life and cause us to pursue other avenues of pleasure. If the xbow is legalized are the traditional and xbow hunters going to quit? If the xbow is legalized will more hunters join the rank of archers? Who knows. This debate offers reasons why a xbow would a benefit by the pro's and land management issues by the anti's. So it sounds like xbows are okay and would be accepted if there was more area to hunt..?



Some of here are from a small forum about outdoors. As we are small in numbers, we are big in heart. We are very active daily in each others life via the internet.

Now, one question that we talked about on our forum was "What to do to keeo the kids entertained while hunting?"

The #1 answer was "GAME BOYS!" Bring the gameboys! Why? Because they enjoy them. They have fun with them. But, it is their choice to some extent, unless you are just very very strict.

With that being said, in a way, computers are taking away from the hunting time that we could be out in the woods right now instead of arguing over who is gonna hunt with what, when.  

BOYCOTT COMPUTERS!!!  

INFIGHTING! Fact: Allowing all hunters the "right of choice" of different means of taking game that is approved and regulated by the state will help stop infighting. It is the only "non-bias" thing to do. It is fair and just. We all benifit! :beer:


----------



## cynic

In order to adequately determine what the exact results would be can only be as of a result of opening the use on a trial basis. Research the affect. If it destroys the hunting for all or majority close it. If it show the same or similar results as the other states leave it. Be open minded


----------



## cynic

Engelsmung said:


> doctariAFC said:
> 
> 
> 
> Ha Ha, I need to send you the pictures from our local newspapers showing 7-10 year olds with their first rifle killed deer...always w/a blood swipe on the cheek initiating them into the hunting fraternity. If your 5 yr old can pull the trigger, welcome to La hunting. No need for license until 16, and then mandatory hunter ed reqs. Take one hunter ed class at 10, and you're in for life. Life time licenses are cheaper the younger you are: $200 for ages 0-4, $300 for 4-13, $500 for 14 and above.
> 
> There are lots of youth oriented hunts on all the refuges, and they get to hunt the weekend before duck and deer season open for adults. There are a few programs, but the vast majority of youth recruitment is by friends and family.
> 
> 
> 
> The blood swipe is Tradition that has been around since before us.
Click to expand...


----------



## doctariAFC

Engelsmung said:


> doctariAFC said:
> 
> 
> 
> Ha Ha, I need to send you the pictures from our local newspapers showing 7-10 year olds with their first rifle killed deer...always w/a blood swipe on the cheek initiating them into the hunting fraternity. If your 5 yr old can pull the trigger, welcome to La hunting. No need for license until 16, and then mandatory hunter ed reqs. Take one hunter ed class at 10, and you're in for life. Life time licenses are cheaper the younger you are: $200 for ages 0-4, $300 for 4-13, $500 for 14 and above.
> 
> There are lots of youth oriented hunts on all the refuges, and they get to hunt the weekend before duck and deer season open for adults. There are a few programs, but the vast majority of youth recruitment is by friends and family.
> 
> 
> 
> Blood swipe on! Nice. Good to see we have special youth hunts going on. Wonder if these actually do anything? We have them here in NY, too. Ain't doing much to get youth involved. From what I am seeing in the demographics of LA, for 2001, approx 26,000 16 and 17 year olds had licenses. Their actual numbers make up 8% of total hunters. 18-24 is 13%. Next 3 age groups make up 19%, 19% and 22% respectively. However, I am still digesting this report.
> 
> Interestingly enough, in 2000 17,000 kids from 12-15 were measured as hunters. I guess we should see if anything changes in this area on the next survey, but, if I can get a hold of 1996 somehow, we can do some growth/ loss work.
Click to expand...


----------



## progers

cynic said:


> In order to adequately determine what the exact results would be can only be as of a result of opening the use on a trial basis. Research the affect. If it destroys the hunting for all or majority close it. If it show the same or similar results as the other states leave it. Be open minded




That is fair.




Question: Does anyone here have a problem with the people of Louisiana shooting any other wildlife with crossbows besides *WHITETAILS*????? 

Take the word *whitetails* out of this discussion for a second. Replace it with *HOGS* or *RABBITS* or *NUTRIA* or *FISH* or *COYOTES* or *BOBCATS* or *TURKEYS*


Well, some will have a problem with *turkeys*, lol!


----------



## cynic

Marvin said:


> agreed. but it isn't stated so it does not apply


You guys are quick to point out what is not applicable but offer nothing to work with to try and come to a resolution.


----------



## PMantle

progers said:


> That is fair.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Question: Does anyone here have a problem with the people of Louisiana shooting any other wildlife with crossbows besides *WHITETAILS*?????
> 
> Take the word *whitetails* out of this discussion for a second. Replace it with *HOGS* or *RABBITS* or *NUTRIA* or *FISH* or *COYOTES* or *BOBCATS* or *TURKEYS*
> 
> 
> Well, some will have a problem with *turkeys*, lol!


I doubt you'll find many opposing those activities. If it can be done with a gun, no one will care if someone does it with a crossbow.


----------



## cynic

PMantle said:


> I doubt you'll find many opposing those activities. If it can be done with a gun, no one will care if someone does it with a crossbow.


what if it is done during archery?


----------



## progers

PMantle said:


> I doubt you'll find many opposing those activities. If it can be done with a gun, no one will care if someone does it with a crossbow.



Thank you for your response.

So, you agree that the Legislature needs to take another look at opening up hunting with crossbows in Louisiana, for the most part?


----------



## Engelsmung

progers said:


> Well, some will have a problem with *turkeys*, lol!


It's hard enough with a gun. If you can successfully kill with a crossbow, kudos to you. I still can't figure out how, considering the draw factor, how anyone kills turkeys with a bow.

Please kill every feral hog and nutria in the state with a crossbow, gun, slingshot, atl-atl or noose. These introduced species are greatly affecting the native wildlife with competition, and lowering the carrying capacity of the land.


----------



## PMantle

cynic said:


> what if it is done during archery?


If you mean someone hunting squirrels or other small game during archery season with a crossbow, I doubt you will find much opposition. Those who do, will likely use the slippery slope argument, and I'm on the fence on whether or not that is a real fear.


----------



## PMantle

progers said:


> Thank you for your response.
> 
> So, you agree that the Legislature needs to take another look at opening up hunting with crossbows in Louisiana, for the most part?



No, I neither agree nor disagree. I have no idea if there is a benefit at all to any crossbow season. My belief is, if I am allowed to state a belief, there is such a small demand for crossbow use IN THIS STATE, that is is not an issue the legislature needs to waste any time on.


----------



## progers

cynic said:


> what if it is done during archery?



The way I see it, if the deer kills go on the "archery equipped kills" section then, it is considered archery eqquipment, therefore should be used in archery season. The question now is, all or part of archery season?

Now, we have three weeks so, the only fair thing would for the "traditionalist" get the first week, the "cbows" get the second week and the "xbows" get the third week. Then, they all particape in the late archery season.

Either that or they all get the first 3 weeks of early archery season.

Those two options are the only FAIR thing to do.


----------



## PMantle

Engelsmung said:


> It's hard enough with a gun. If you can successfully kill with a crossbow, kudos to you. I still can't figure out how, considering the draw factor, how anyone kills turkeys with a bow.
> 
> Please kill every feral hog and nutria in the state with a crossbow, gun, slingshot, atl-atl or noose. These introduced species are greatly affecting the native wildlife with competition, and lowering the carrying capacity of the land.



or grenade or M-60 or ...........


----------



## cynic

PMantle said:


> If you mean someone hunting squirrels or other small game during archery season with a crossbow, I doubt you will find much opposition. Those who do, will likely use the slippery slope argument, and I'm on the fence on whether or not that is a real fear.


With that I will ask what does it matter if they hunt rodents hogs or deer it will still be more hunters in the woods with you. Now the arguement is not that it will be more hunters it is that they may kill your deer


----------



## PMantle

progers said:


> The way I see it, if the deer kills go on the "archery equipped kills" section then, it is considered archery eqquipment, therefore should be used in archery season. The question now is, all or part of archery season?
> 
> Now, we have three weeks so, the only fair thing would for the "traditionalist" get the first week, the "cbows" get the second week and the "xbows" get the third week. Then, they all particape in the late archery season.
> 
> Either that or they all get the first 3 weeks of early archery season.
> 
> Those two options are the only FAIR thing to do.


That's crazy. Hunters who only use one of the methods will only get one week, then rifle season starts. No one in any of the groups, except rifle hunters, would be happy with such a proposal.


----------



## progers

PMantle said:


> No, I neither agree nor disagree. I have no idea if there is a benefit at all to any crossbow season. My belief is, if I am allowed to state a belief, there is such a small demand for crossbow use IN THIS STATE, that is is not an issue the legislature needs to waste any time on.



The reason there isn't a demand is because YOU CAN'T HUNT WITH IT! We buy this stuff to go hunting with. If I buy a crossbow, all I can do is shoot it at a target. I can chunk rocks at a box for free. Why would I have a reason to buy one now?

You have to create a need for a supply to get the demand.


----------



## progers

PMantle said:


> That's crazy. Hunters who only use one of the methods will only get one week, then rifle season starts. No one in any of the groups, except rifle hunters, would be happy with such a proposal.




Muzzleloaders get one week. 

Just because its "firearm season" doesn't mean you have to hunt with one. You have the "right to choose".


----------



## PMantle

cynic said:


> With that I will ask what does it matter if they hunt rodents hogs or deer it will still be more hunters in the woods with you. Now the arguement is not that it will be more hunters it is that they may kill your deer


Nope, those people would be in the woods anyway. I deal with squirrel hunters every year in Cocodrie NWR since they expanded squirrel season past the end of October. No one is going to start hunting with crossbows for small game that did not already do it. Try painting someone else in a corner. You won't get me. I don't own any deer.

Oh, and where are your facts? :wink:


----------



## PMantle

progers said:


> Muzzleloaders get one week.
> 
> Just because its "firearm season" doesn't mean you have to hunt with one. You have the "right to choose".



That's just an early and a late extension of firearms season-apples and oranges comparison.


----------



## progers

PMantle said:


> Nope, those people would be in the woods anyway. I deal with squirrel hunters every year in Cocodrie NWR since they expanded squirrel season past the end of October. No one is going to start hunting with crossbows for small game that did not already do it. Try painting someone else in a corner. You won't get me. I don't own any deer.
> 
> Oh, and where are your facts? :wink:




You are absolutly right!

The people are already in the woods hunting something else AND we don't own the deer! :beer: 




PMantle said:


> That's just an early and a late extension of firearms season-apples and oranges comparison.



Adding a week for xbows then letting cbows have a week before that is just " an early and a late extension of "traditional" bow season-apples and oranges comparison."


----------



## doctariAFC

PMantle said:


> Nope, those people would be in the woods anyway. I deal with squirrel hunters every year in Cocodrie NWR since they expanded squirrel season past the end of October. No one is going to start hunting with crossbows for small game that did not already do it. Try painting someone else in a corner. You won't get me. I don't own any deer.
> 
> Oh, and where are your facts? :wink:


Yes, we are getting a bit off topic. Let's focus on the facts of Hunting in LA, and let's compare some numbers from other states who allow the crossbow. 

One thing that I will thank all of you for is the current level of civility. Please, keep it up. 

Also, I would have to commend all of you with starting the dialog on compromise. :yo:

So, let's really hone in on the facts. Then let's apply the dynamics of LA to these facts. We will then have a truly clearer picture to go by.


----------



## PMantle

progers said:


> You are absolutly right!
> 
> The people are already in the woods hunting something else AND we don't own the deer! :beer:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Adding a week for xbows then letting cbows have a week before that is just " an early and a late extension of "traditional" bow season-apples and oranges comparison."


That makes no sense whatsoever. I don't think you realize it, but your arguments/points aren't really aiding your cause.


----------



## PMantle

doctariAFC said:


> Also, I would have to commend all of you with starting the dialog on compromise. :yo:
> 
> QUOTE]
> 
> I am going to predict that the Bayou State Bowhunters Assoc. will not favor any expansion whatsoever. I predict they will use the slippery slope argument and it will be all out war if any real push is instigated. If they do, like it or not, I will have to side with them.


----------



## Engelsmung

progers said:


> Muzzleloaders get one week.
> 
> Just because its "firearm season" doesn't mean you have to hunt with one. You have the "right to choose".


Actually, they get a week before, and a week after gun season, and check this out: who did they take days from to give muzzleloaders early and late access for "primitive" weapons? Rifle hunters? Nope, they delved into bowseason. The exclusivity of bowhunting dwindles annually, which is far more likely to have caused the decline in archery numbers than the lack of crossbow availability. Why bother with a bow when you can gunhunt 80% of the bow season?

With regard to archery only days, Area 1 had 42 days before, and 3 days after gun hunting. Area 2 has 21 before, 9 after. Area 3 has 21 b4, 7 after. area 4 34 before, 23 after. area 5 42 before, 30 fter. area 6, where i hunt, 42 before, 2 after. and so on. sadly, the October portion of the season is hot, mosquito filled, and not very rewarding, and the NWRs are not open during October for bowhunting.

where's the evidence that out deer population is overly abundant, and can support the increased impact of crossbows during bowseason? or are we assuming no additional impact?


----------



## PMantle

Engelsmung said:


> Actually, they get a week before, and a week after gun season, and check this out: who did they take days from to give muzzleloaders early and late access for "primitive" weapons? Rifle hunters? Nope, they delved into bowseason. The exclusivity of bowhunting dwindles annually, which is far more likely to have caused the decline in archery numbers than the lack of crossbow availability. Why bother with a bow when you can gunhunt 80% of the bow season?
> 
> With regard to archery only days, Area 1 had 42 days before, and 3 days after gun hunting. Area 2 has 21 before, 9 after. Area 3 has 21 b4, 7 after. area 4 34 before, 23 after. area 5 42 before, 30 fter. area 6, where i hunt, 42 before, 2 after. and so on. sadly, the October portion of the season is hot, mosquito filled, and not very rewarding, and the NWRs are not open during October for bowhunting.
> 
> where's the evidence that out deer population is overly abundant, and can support the increased impact of crossbows during bowseason? or are we assuming no additional impact?


Best and most informative post in this or the other thread. :rock-on:


----------



## progers

PMantle said:


> doctariAFC said:
> 
> 
> 
> Also, I would have to commend all of you with starting the dialog on compromise. :yo:
> 
> QUOTE]
> 
> I am going to predict that the Bayou State Bowhunters Assoc. will not favor any expansion whatsoever. I predict they will use the slippery slope argument and it will be all out war if any real push is instigated. If they do, like it or not, I will have to side with them.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Let it be know that we are not at war with anyone.
> 
> As far as the BSBA, just because you joined their forum DOES NOT make you a member of the BSBA. If you are representative of the BSBA, please acknowledge that at this time. If you are not, please acknowlege that. They will not approve of you using their name with comments for what they represent.
> 
> This issue is NOT about the BSBA. They are welcome to voice their opinions as well. They are asked to bring facts to the table, also.
Click to expand...


----------



## cynic

PMantle said:


> Oh, and where are your facts? :wink:


If this was truly going strictly by rules of facts only "you guys wouldn't be able to post"....
I know DOC. I will take what ever punishment you deem appropriate but I had to


----------



## PMantle

progers said:


> PMantle said:
> 
> 
> 
> Let it be know that we are not at war with anyone.
> 
> As far as the BSBA, just because you joined their forum DOES NOT make you a member of the BSBA. If you are representative of the BSBA, please acknowledge that at this time. If you are not, please acknowlege that. They will not approve of you using their name with comments for what they represent.
> 
> This issue is NOT about the BSBA. They are welcome to voice their opinions as well. They are asked to bring facts to the table, also.
> 
> 
> 
> No offense, but I am going to have to add you to my ignored list. You just aren't making sense, and I don't have time to chase down your tangents. Good hunting. Later.
Click to expand...


----------



## progers

Engelsmung said:


> Actually, they get a week before, and a week after gun season, and check this out: who did they take days from to give muzzleloaders early and late access for "primitive" weapons? Rifle hunters? Nope, they delved into bowseason. The exclusivity of bowhunting dwindles annually, which is far more likely to have caused the decline in archery numbers than the lack of crossbow availability. Why bother with a bow when you can gunhunt 80% of the bow season?
> 
> With regard to archery only days, Area 1 had 42 days before, and 3 days after gun hunting. Area 2 has 21 before, 9 after. Area 3 has 21 b4, 7 after. area 4 34 before, 23 after. area 5 42 before, 30 fter. area 6, where i hunt, 42 before, 2 after. and so on. sadly, the October portion of the season is hot, mosquito filled, and not very rewarding, and the NWRs are not open during October for bowhunting.
> 
> where's the evidence that out deer population is overly abundant, and can support the increased impact of crossbows during bowseason? or are we assuming no additional impact?




Dude, didn't they start opening up deer season earlier because of this very issue to compensate the offset??? I remember when I could squirrel hunt before the archery season began. Now, they open the same time.


----------



## Free Range

I tried to catch up on this, but I busy at work so I will jump in on the tail end here, sorry if this has been refuted already.



> that may be correct-however, the OHIO DNR continues to claim (unrefuted by any facts from the opposition from what I have seen) that Xbows are more popular than compounds and xbows in ohio retain hunters.
> 
> Revival's daughter is a new hunter who was able to hunt in ohio only because crossbows are legal without a disability permit


Now you lost me HEY WHAT HAPPEN TO FACTS, the facts in the above statement is this, Ohio has not done a study to prove that the x-bow retains hunters, they might assume this is the case but there are no facts to back them up. Would you like me to post the response I got from the Ohio DNR on this exact subject? Fact number 2, or should I say non-fact number two. Revivals daughter could hunt in Ohio without a x-bow, saying she could not hunt without a x-bow is a non-fact.


----------



## Free Range

Now for some real facts, 
Fact number one, no one knows if the x-bow contributes in any real way to increased hunters. We can speculate that it does or not but until a real study has been done that is all it is, speculation. 
Fact number two, we also don’t know if they generate any real increase in money or if they just move dollars around.
Fact number three, Jim likes to call the P&Y club a cult ) just joshing you Jim
Fact number four, it has been shown in other states that there is a large increase in bodies in the woods during archery season, after the legalization of the x-bow, but fact 4a is we don’t know where these hunters come from.
Fact five, every person in the USA (not convicted of a felony, and of legal age) can enjoy hunting today, there is plenty of opportunity for all, to say that because the x-bow is not allowed during archery season is somehow restricting opportunity for hunters is a smoke screen. 
Fact number six, it is time for me to head home so I will eagerly await responses from the gallery before I post more information for you to consume.


----------



## cynic

Engelsmung said:


> Actually, they get a week before, and a week after gun season, and check this out: who did they take days from to give muzzleloaders early and late access for "primitive" weapons? Rifle hunters? Nope, they delved into bowseason. The exclusivity of bowhunting dwindles annually, which is far more likely to have caused the decline in archery numbers than the lack of crossbow availability. Why bother with a bow when you can gunhunt 80% of the bow season?
> 
> With regard to archery only days, Area 1 had 42 days before, and 3 days after gun hunting. Area 2 has 21 before, 9 after. Area 3 has 21 b4, 7 after. area 4 34 before, 23 after. area 5 42 before, 30 fter. area 6, where i hunt, 42 before, 2 after. and so on. sadly, the October portion of the season is hot, mosquito filled, and not very rewarding, and the NWRs are not open during October for bowhunting.
> 
> where's the evidence that out deer population is overly abundant, and can support the increased impact of crossbows during bowseason? or are we assuming no additional impact?


Area 6 then would be the perfect place to make the xbow hunters suffer. I mean really suffer


----------



## Engelsmung

progers said:


> Dude, didn't they start opening up deer season earlier because of this very issue to compensate the offset??? I remember when I could squirrel hunt before the archery season began. Now, they open the same time.


Archery always opens Oct. 1st. Squirrel huntin always opens the first Saturday in October. Sometimes they coincide, when October 1st is a Saturday.

To my knowledge, no change in Archery dates was made when muzzleloader hunting began, and back then, MZs were actually primitive. I think the MZ season has been recently expanded, and I know it has greatly increased on the NWRs.


----------



## Engelsmung

cynic said:


> Area 6 then would be the perfect place to make the xbow hunters suffer. I mean really suffer


They're already handicapped, or codgers, so why go the extra mile to be mean? :wink:


----------



## cynic

Engelsmung said:


> Archery always opens Oct. 1st. Squirrel huntin always opens the first Saturday in October. Sometimes they coincide, when October 1st is a Saturday.
> 
> To my knowledge, no change in Archery dates was made when muzzleloader hunting began, and back then, MZs were actually primitive. I think the MZ season has been recently expanded, and I know it has greatly increased on the NWRs.


Were the bows Primitive/traditional or compound at the conception of the primitive ML season? Did general gun lose days to accomodate the ML?


----------



## PMantle

cynic said:


> Were the bows Primitive/traditional or compound at the conception of the primitive ML season? Did general gun lose days to accomodate the ML?


 At the beginning of ML season, archery was any bow 35lbs and over with no means to hold it at full draw other than a mechanical release. The days given to ML season were in addition to, not taken from, firearm season.


----------



## Engelsmung

cynic said:


> Were the bows Primitive/traditional or compound at the conception of the primitive ML season? Did general gun lose days to accomodate the ML?


The state instituted the special archery season statewide for the 1962-63 season, while the special muzzleloader season began for the 1989-90 season.
(from LaGame and Fish article by Glynn Harris)

So, probably compounds when muzz started,and gun kept days, while muzz added into primitive category.


----------



## Engelsmung

progers said:


> This issue is NOT about the BSBA. They are welcome to voice their opinions as well. They are asked to bring facts to the table, also.


I've been a member of the BSBA for several years now. They are the largest bowhunting group in the state, and they oppose your plan. The reality is that the onus is on the proponents of crossbows to introduce legislation to get them into the current archery season. You've already admitted earlier that you had no La groups pushing this agenda, just "a 'coalition' if you will of a few fellow hunters". Why ruin what's left of archery season for a few guys who want some excitement? Go to your chiropracter, tell him your back hurts, and get him to write you a ticket for a crossbow license. Problem solved.

Off to dinner. See you tomorrow.:beer:


----------



## cynic

thanks engelsmung fo the help. So ML season was added and seasoned after Archer but Before Rifle/gun? The reason that I am asking is did any season lose hunting time because of ML and was it archery? How was the season incorporated into hunting. The method that was used then may help now...Such as Starting the Archery Season for instance 1 wk earlier and allowing the xbow Last 2 wks and during any season allowing firearms. Instead of fighting with each other lets get some ideas how to make it work for both sides.


----------



## progers

Engelsmung said:


> I've been a member of the BSBA for several years now. They are the largest bowhunting group in the state, and they oppose your plan. The reality is that the onus is on the proponents of crossbows to introduce legislation to get them into the current archery season. You've already admitted earlier that you had no La groups pushing this agenda, just "a 'coalition' if you will of a few fellow hunters". Why ruin what's left of archery season for a few guys who want some excitement? Go to your chiropracter, tell him your back hurts, and get him to write you a ticket for a crossbow license. Problem solved.
> 
> Off to dinner. See you tomorrow.:beer:






off topic reply: 
because that would be taking the easy way out. I am up to the challenge. And besides, to tell a lie would be immoral. Why should I have to lie to use it. 

Yes, we are a small "coalition" with just a few good descent non bias folk who bow hunt, gun hunt, mzl hunt, fish, trap, camp and enjoy all of the outdoors. 

We enjoy the comradery of it all as that is what the "tradition" is all about. I think a few folks tend to loose sight of that every now and then.




Back on topic reply:



> The reality is that the onus is on the proponents of crossbows to introduce legislation to get them into the current archery season.


That is not our intentions of moving forth. We will be indroducing that they be added to all hunting and bow fishing seasons without the restrictions. That is our goal. As far as archery season, that should be the ONLY beef the BSBA should have against the crossbow. They should embrace it for all other seasons.
------------------------------------------------------------------------- 


So, does the BSBA support the legalization of crossbows for all game and bowfishing including whitetail EXCEPT during archery season OR do they just have a beef with the crossbow itself? 

***Please respond with this answer because it is VERY important that we FULLY understand the BSBA's stand on this issue.


----------



## PMantle

cynic said:


> thanks engelsmung fo the help. So ML season was added and seasoned after Archer but Before Rifle/gun? The reason that I am asking is did any season lose hunting time because of ML and was it archery? How was the season incorporated into hunting. The method that was used then may help now...Such as Starting the Archery Season for instance 1 wk earlier and allowing the xbow Last 2 wks and during any season allowing firearms. Instead of fighting with each other lets get some ideas how to make it work for both sides.


No one actually lost days. Archery season is not interupted here by any gun days unless it is a special hunt on a WMA or NWR. The only difference it makes is, the rules for bowhunters change during any open gun season to require the use of hunter's orange, and the limitation of bucks only unless it is a designated doe day for gun hunters. In the archery only season, one can take either a buck or doe or one of each on any day. 

In practice, I lose days whenever there is a ML hunt because I choose not to bow hunt when a ML hunt is going on. You may have seen "Orange Army" posts in the general hunting section. The ML army is big here. The refuges with ML weeks(used to be just days, but that is another issue) get lots of participation. Mung might have the numbers-I'm not sure. 

Starting earlier would mean starting in September. A small portion of the State does start that early because of a small area of very early rut. Keep in mind, temperatures in the mid 90's often extend well into September. This is just my feelings here, but I really don't want any more archery days. The season is plenty long. In fact, I would be in favor of shortening it, but again, that is not the issue here.


----------



## doctariAFC

Let's get back to facts, gentlemen. We haven't even gotten the handle on the complete interworkings of hunting in LA, and now we're already jumping the gun with conclusions being drawn without facts being presented.

Free Range - plenty of facts are out there from states who recently opened up crossbows. They tracked this stuff (crossbows) to measure any success or lackthereof. Just gotta find it. But its out there.

You are correct about Ohio, but since it has been part of hunting in OH for 30 years, I guess tracking it for them is really a moot point.


----------



## Free Range

The fact is with regards to loss of hunter participation there are many things at play. Loss of access being among the top candidates, lack of interest by the younger generation, due to the abundant other activities that kids have to choose from, attacks from PETA and other anti hunting groups giving some a false picture of what hunting is. Loss of some seasons due to restrictive laws pushed by the anti's. Cost of hunting, in most eastern states the cost is till relatively low but when you cross the Mississippi things change in a hurry, and going out of state is becoming a dream that fewer people will enjoy each year. 

Now back to the x-bow, and how it fits in here, these facts you speak of from recently opened states. I keep hearing about them but can’t seem to find them. Yes we can track deer licenses in states that keep separate records for weapon type. But most of the states that now allow the x-bow allow hunters to hunt in multiple seasons. So showing an increase in people hunting in archery season sounds good, “Hey more hunters” but does it really mean more hunters or does it mean hunters moving around from season to season more? The real test of how popular the x-bow is would be to track their use in seasons that allow for any weapon, kind of like they have in SC. You basically buy a deer tag, the season runs from xx date to xx date you use whatever weapon you want. Why do you think in situations like this the x-bow falls even below the bow in popularity? If there really was this huge ground swell of people demanding they be able to use the x-bow don’t you think it would far out number the bow in areas that give you the choice of gun, bow, or x-bow?

And unless a person has to pay extra for these weapon specific tags there is no real increase in funds. So just what is the advantages of letting the x-bow be included in archery season un-restricted? Really the only one I have heard that makes any sense is it gives people another choice. And that is lame at best, because in most states they already have that choice, in most states, including here in Colorado you can hunt with a x-bow during the regular gun season. Oh so you say that ain’t fair, why not, how does someone hunting a half mile away form you with a gun affect your hunting? (sound familiar)


----------



## progers

50% of all states is restricted to handicap and/or seniors
50% of all states allow it unrestricted during mzl and firearm seasons
25% of all states allow it unrestricted in firearm and archery seasons

that is not much of a choice.


FreeRange, we are working hard on these numbers. We are just now getting access and there is alot of "stuff" that we have to sort out. We are doing our best to put facts on the table. We are finding some really interesting info so, please be patient.

We have also extended an offer for the opposition to participate in bringing fact based info. The facts are there. You just gotta really dig to find them.

Once we have the info posted, we will be able to answer questions relating to facts.

Thanks for your patience!


----------



## Engelsmung

progers said:


> Yes, we are a small "coalition" with just a few good descent non bias folk who bow hunt, gun hunt, mzl hunt, fish, trap, camp and enjoy all of the outdoors.
> 
> We enjoy the comradery of it all as that is what the "tradition" is all about. I think a few folks tend to loose sight of that every now and then.
> .


I can't believe I've wasted this much time arguing b/c a "coalition" of 6-10 nameless guys, who don't even put their names on their profile, who already bowhunt & gunhunt, want to cram a new weapon into the 30 year old bowseason. Is giving them the crossbow going to help anything? No, they already buy archery licenses. Any money spent on x-bows is money not spent on bows. I vote to move this to the x-bow forum, where no dissent is allowed, and all the crossbow lovers can pat each other on the back, until some actual legislation is filed. Then I'll call my reps and let them know how I feel about it. 

I'm done here.:zip:


----------



## Free Range

I’m interested in what facts you are trying to uncover. I have read as much as I can find on this subject, I have sent e-mails to states that have x-bows un-restricted in archery season, I have been on numerous websites asking for these so called facts. I have not seen any facts relating to, increased hunter retention, increased hunter recruiting, increased ability of states to manage deer populations, increased income to the states, increased positive image of hunters. Just what are the positives. If this information is there to be found I’m positive people like DJH, Revival, JimC, the x-bow manufactures, and others that stand to gain from the expansion of the x-bow would have found it, and pasted this information on every other billboard across the nation. They would be laughing all they way to the bank, and rubbing our noise in it. 
Your numbers are a bit confusing, 50% of the states are restricted to handicapped and seniors, are you saying that in this 50% you cannot hunt with a x-bow during rifle season? And where does that extra 25% come from? 
And if this information you are looking for is so hard to come by, what happens if you discover that the x-bow is really a bad thing for archery season, after it has been made legal, are you going to push for it’s removal after the fact? 
And one more thing about “facts” most of the arguments from the expansion camp come in the form of “sound game management” “this should be decided on what the resource can handle” Yeah duh, there really isn’t much argument when put in those constraints. But this is more then facts, more then, game management, there is some bigger issues here that can’t be argued with scientific facts. Saying we can debate this here but must post facts only, is like making an a goose berry pie without sugar, it’s still a goose berry pie but it leaves a sour taste in your mouth.


----------



## Free Range

Progers, I see in your signature is Bayou Adventures, is that a sporting goods store?


----------



## progers

Engelsmung said:


> I can't believe I've wasted this much time arguing b/c a "coalition" of 6-10 nameless guys, who don't even put their names on their profile, who already bowhunt & gunhunt, want to cram a new weapon into the 30 year old bowseason. Is giving them the crossbow going to help anything? No, they already buy archery licenses. Any money spent on x-bows is money not spent on bows. I vote to move this to the x-bow forum, where no dissent is allowed, and all the crossbow lovers can pat each other on the back, until some actual legislation is filed. Then I'll call my reps and let them know how I feel about it.
> 
> I'm done here.:zip:



You may argue with the facts all you like, that will be your choice.




> Any money spent on x-bows is money not spent on bows. I vote to move this to the x-bow forum, where no dissent is allowed, and all the crossbow lovers can pat each other on the back


You are admitting that all this is about the compound bow manufactorers making the money instead of someone else. 

You will have to get with Doctari about moving this thread to the xbow forum. I think that it is in the appropiate forum now. 

Dissent-negativity? How is putting the facts on the table for the world to see a negative thing? We are not "crossbow lovers" as you put it. We are non bias.


----------



## doctariAFC

Free Range said:


> The fact is with regards to loss of hunter participation there are many things at play. Loss of access being among the top candidates, lack of interest by the younger generation, due to the abundant other activities that kids have to choose from, attacks from PETA and other anti hunting groups giving some a false picture of what hunting is. Loss of some seasons due to restrictive laws pushed by the anti's. Cost of hunting, in most eastern states the cost is till relatively low but when you cross the Mississippi things change in a hurry, and going out of state is becoming a dream that fewer people will enjoy each year.
> 
> Now back to the x-bow, and how it fits in here, these facts you speak of from recently opened states. I keep hearing about them but can’t seem to find them. Yes we can track deer licenses in states that keep separate records for weapon type. But most of the states that now allow the x-bow allow hunters to hunt in multiple seasons. So showing an increase in people hunting in archery season sounds good, “Hey more hunters” but does it really mean more hunters or does it mean hunters moving around from season to season more? The real test of how popular the x-bow is would be to track their use in seasons that allow for any weapon, kind of like they have in SC. You basically buy a deer tag, the season runs from xx date to xx date you use whatever weapon you want. Why do you think in situations like this the x-bow falls even below the bow in popularity? If there really was this huge ground swell of people demanding they be able to use the x-bow don’t you think it would far out number the bow in areas that give you the choice of gun, bow, or x-bow?
> 
> And unless a person has to pay extra for these weapon specific tags there is no real increase in funds. So just what is the advantages of letting the x-bow be included in archery season un-restricted? Really the only one I have heard that makes any sense is it gives people another choice. And that is lame at best, because in most states they already have that choice, in most states, including here in Colorado you can hunt with a x-bow during the regular gun season. Oh so you say that ain’t fair, why not, how does someone hunting a half mile away form you with a gun affect your hunting? (sound familiar)


I little off topic, but going to the importance of getting the facts. How many sportsmen and women realized the depth of information available from USF&W existed - FOR FREE! How many of the learned and active sportsmen and women have actually studied any of these numbers, compared the 5-year benchmark reviews from the Feds and filled in the gaps with the State compiled information? Chances are, we do not have too many out there that have done this, from the sportsmen's side of the fence. These reports are what the industry lives and dies by. Literally. This was relayed to me by both the NRA and National Shooting Sports Foundation. However, the information they use is only part of the whole story. We, as sportmen, need to examine so e other areas of information, which, from the many debates held on a myriad of hunting issues, clearly underscores either our complete ignorance to what data is out there, or a complete ignorance to how important understanding the dynamics under the covers is to making solid decisions and formulation of plans to address problems before they hit you in the face.

Specifically, when it comes to Louisiana, the substantial declines in hunter participation and the related declines in the State economic engine could have been more effectively addressed IF we examine the facts and review, not only harvest information and license sales, but who, through demographics, should be the target area of concern. Yet, we tend to perpetuate the fact we are our own worst enemies, by allowing ourselves to become blinded by special interests and factionalization, succombing to unproductive arguments over whose emotional opinion is right, not even bothering to get educated on the facts so we can have a snowball's chance at understanding reality vs. emotion. If we all begin examining the facts and discuss the facts, rather than debate our personal beliefs, we do indeed come together as a stronger group. Once we have the facts presented, we can now begin constructive dialog on the sensitive issues. But, in good form of the past, we do not do that. However, we are doing some of this in this thread, and this is encouraging.

Let's continue to dig through the facts. Many facts are out there, they do take time to find and compile. Then we can actually have a debate over the challenges and conditions, come to an agreement on some of the problems, and deterimne whether, in this case, crossbows will be of benefit, or detriment, based on the facts, rather than some emotion belief of specific organization's position statement.


----------



## progers

Free Range said:


> Progers, I see in your signature is Bayou Adventures, is that a sporting goods store?



NOPE! It is a forum that I started and pay for with my own money to give the good people a place to come and share their experiences of all outdoor recreational events they may participate. I have NO sponsors. I do this for NOBODY but, the people themselves.

We are not attached to ANY company. We are non bias.

We support hunting, fishing, wildlife watching, canoeing, hiking, and any other thing you can think of that gets people into the outdoors and enjoying nature.

The ads at my site are controled by GOOGLE so, if you swing by there and see an ad for crossbows it is simply because we, as members of a non bias forum, are talking abot this subject alot.

I hope this can clear up my position of where I stand on this issue.

All the opposition have direct associations with big brand name compound bow manufactors. That will explain their "predetermined" descision on this matter.

Thanks for asking FreeRange.


----------



## progers

I would like to say also that in no way do I take "pride" in fighting with fellow hunters on this issue. We should not fight but rather seek mutual ground for all parties to be satisfied. 

I bet the anti hunters are really eating this up!?! 

The anti's are hard and heavy on the "bow hunting" community right now as they are the "minority" of the hunters. But, I will be there standing behind you to help fight for your rights, also. I will abandon no fellow hunter.


----------



## PMantle

When you say dig out the facts, what you really mean is look for numbers. The numbers are meaningless in and of themselves without a proper context. How do we know how someone like me is being counted? I have a lifetime license. That means I don't buy the following: big game, state duck stamp, basic and salt fishing, turkey(I think there is one-not sure) basic hunting, and maybe others but I'm cloudy on it because I have not had to buy any of them in so long. Anyway, the State has no idea if I actually participate in any of these. I may do all one year, and only one or two the next. 

Before that, how was I counted? When I bought big game, was that one hunter? When I bought the State duck stamp, was I another hunter? How would the State know? You are not asked for any previous license numbers when you buy an additional stamp or license. Anyway, you can post all the numbers you want in this discussion, and none have any relevance in the ONLY issue in this thread-the introduction of crossbows in the archery only season in Louisiana. Find some numbers that have relevance, and I'd love to debate, agree or argue in good faith with any of you. What is going on now is just a gigantic waste of finger energy, as no one is posting anything relevant to the only issue at hand.

Oh, and even if the numbers were relevant, what conclusions or theories come from them? If any do come, how are they relevant to THIS discussion? 

Mung and I have a different perspective than most in this discussion because 1. We only bowhunt for the most part. 2. La. has a long gun season that we do not participate in. 3. We see how crowded the public access lands are during ALL of the seasons. 4. Neither of us are in a lease. 5. We've lived through the steady increase in firearm days in all the NWR's that used to be almost exclusively archery. Until you've lived this particular situation, I don't know how well you can even understand any numbers that might even be relevant. Currently, the only places you can hunt relatively close to the rut with a bow while not having gun hunters in the woods is either private land, or NWR's.

If this whole thing was just a matter of current archers choosing to use a crossbow over a long bow, recurve or compound, I doubt there would be any opposition. I believe, and reasonable minds could differ, that archery season would see an increase in hunters, and that increase would be in the form of gun hunters expanding what is already a very liberal season.


----------



## Free Range

Progers, Thanks for clearing that up, you said something that I find interesting, the opposition being associated with compound mfgs. While I’m sure there are those in the compound mfg ranks that oppose this, so far I have not heard from them on any of these forums. And I don’t believe they were present at the now infamous meeting where the P&Y club with scores of other state and national bowhunting groups developed their plans to fight the expansion of x-bows into traditional archery seasons. 

And I’m part of the opposition, with no ties to any compound mfg. 

Doctari as usual you are a wealth of information, and although I was a little off topic I did so to try and understand where we are going with these facts. As I asked, what facts are we looking for? It might help if we clearly stated what we are looking for, saying we are looking for positive information, or damaging information, is kind of open ended. Just what is it we hope to find, evidence of hunter recruitment, retention, increased funds going to the DNR, increased hunter satisfaction? And what do we do with this information if we find it, if there are no facts out there to support any of these claims do we drop the x-bow forever, if there is information supporting these claims do we automatically concede and implement them in all states? 

What is the web address to the USF&W I would like to do some looking around on their sight to see what kind of goodies I can find.


----------



## progers

Free Range said:


> Progers, Thanks for clearing that up, you said something that I find interesting, the opposition being associated with compound mfgs. While I’m sure there are those in the compound mfg ranks that oppose this, so far I have not heard from them on any of these forums. And I don’t believe they were present at the now infamous meeting where the P&Y club with scores of other state and national bowhunting groups developed their plans to fight the expansion of x-bows into traditional archery seasons.
> 
> And I’m part of the opposition, with no ties to any compound mfg.
> 
> Doctari as usual you are a wealth of information, and although I was a little off topic I did so to try and understand where we are going with these facts. As I asked, what facts are we looking for? It might help if we clearly stated what we are looking for, saying we are looking for positive information, or damaging information, is kind of open ended. Just what is it we hope to find, evidence of hunter recruitment, retention, increased funds going to the DNR, increased hunter satisfaction? And what do we do with this information if we find it, if there are no facts out there to support any of these claims do we drop the x-bow forever, if there is information supporting these claims do we automatically concede and implement them in all states?
> 
> What is the web address to the USF&W I would like to do some looking around on their sight to see what kind of goodies I can find.



No Prob, FR. I stand corrected. Not all of the opposition will be linked straight to the manufactorers. The majority of the ones here are members of BSBA and that ties them to sales of compounds, in one way or another. 

Are you a member of ANY bowhunting organization or association?



What I don't understand, from the bowhunters perspective is: 

Why do they oppose xbows in ALL hunting seasons. They say that they are dedicated to fight to keep it out of bow season. That is understandable. But, bowhunting organizations fight to keep it out of all seasons for all game. 

Why is that? 

I know that this is getting offtopic and relates to personal feeling but, I am trying to see this from all perspectives. 

The people in the crossbow community are good people. They have feelings, also. It seems that nobody cares about how they feel. That is not right. They love hunting just as much as we do.


----------



## Marvin

Free Range said:


> Progers, Thanks for clearing that up, you said something that I find interesting, the opposition being associated with compound mfgs. While I’m sure there are those in the compound mfg ranks that oppose this, so far I have not heard from them on any of these forums. And I don’t believe they were present at the now infamous meeting where the P&Y club with scores of other state and national bowhunting groups developed their plans to fight the expansion of x-bows into traditional archery seasons.
> 
> And I’m part of the opposition, with no ties to any compound mfg.
> 
> Doctari as usual you are a wealth of information, and although I was a little off topic I did so to try and understand where we are going with these facts. As I asked, what facts are we looking for? It might help if we clearly stated what we are looking for, saying we are looking for positive information, or damaging information, is kind of open ended. Just what is it we hope to find, evidence of hunter recruitment, retention, increased funds going to the DNR, increased hunter satisfaction? And what do we do with this information if we find it, if there are no facts out there to support any of these claims do we drop the x-bow forever, if there is information supporting these claims do we automatically concede and implement them in all states?
> 
> What is the web address to the USF&W I would like to do some looking around on their sight to see what kind of goodies I can find.


Nice pick up as usual freerange. I wonder if Progers realizes this site is here becuase of a major a compound manufacturer? they even make trad bows.....(they are the enemy you know). My favorite line is "we are not baised" Oh come on thats obsurd. If your not biased, neither is P&Y


----------



## Marvin

progers said:


> The people in the crossbow community are good people. They have feelings, also. It seems that nobody cares about how they feel. That is not right. They love hunting just as much as we do.


 Yes they are good people, just like the rest of us. We care how they feel but it seems odd they don't care ( or respect) how we feel. They do love hunting as much as we...in gun season. Your state provides AMPLE opportunity for people to bowhunt. they CHOOSE not to. New York on teh other hand needs some tweeking. Your state might need a little tweeking as well but not a complete rebuild.


----------



## Marvin

Anybody having trouble getting to the US fish and wildlife reports? I think we crashed it...


----------



## doctariAFC

PMantle said:


> When you say dig out the facts, what you really mean is look for numbers. The numbers are meaningless in and of themselves without a proper context. How do we know how someone like me is being counted? I have a lifetime license. That means I don't buy the following: big game, state duck stamp, basic and salt fishing, turkey(I think there is one-not sure) basic hunting, and maybe others but I'm cloudy on it because I have not had to buy any of them in so long. Anyway, the State has no idea if I actually participate in any of these. I may do all one year, and only one or two the next.
> 
> Before that, how was I counted? When I bought big game, was that one hunter? When I bought the State duck stamp, was I another hunter? How would the State know? You are not asked for any previous license numbers when you buy an additional stamp or license. Anyway, you can post all the numbers you want in this discussion, and none have any relevance in the ONLY issue in this thread-the introduction of crossbows in the archery only season in Louisiana. Find some numbers that have relevance, and I'd love to debate, agree or argue in good faith with any of you. What is going on now is just a gigantic waste of finger energy, as no one is posting anything relevant to the only issue at hand.
> 
> Oh, and even if the numbers were relevant, what conclusions or theories come from them? If any do come, how are they relevant to THIS discussion?
> 
> Mung and I have a different perspective than most in this discussion because 1. We only bowhunt for the most part. 2. La. has a long gun season that we do not participate in. 3. We see how crowded the public access lands are during ALL of the seasons. 4. Neither of us are in a lease. 5. We've lived through the steady increase in firearm days in all the NWR's that used to be almost exclusively archery. Until you've lived this particular situation, I don't know how well you can even understand any numbers that might even be relevant. Currently, the only places you can hunt relatively close to the rut with a bow while not having gun hunters in the woods is either private land, or NWR's.
> 
> If this whole thing was just a matter of current archers choosing to use a crossbow over a long bow, recurve or compound, I doubt there would be any opposition. I believe, and reasonable minds could differ, that archery season would see an increase in hunters, and that increase would be in the form of gun hunters expanding what is already a very liberal season.


Ok. Pmantle, you are really giving me cause for dismay. Numbers tell a great deal. No, they do not tell the whole story, but, without exception, numbers tell of performance and satisfaction, without exception. Be it hunter participation numbers in each age group over the past 10 years, or market share of Hoyt vs Parker Bows, the numbers do not lie, and they will give you the effect of the conditions currently in place, regardless of area of interest or class of trade or category of business.
The first step in any critical analysis is to identify the current performance of your interest/ business. Then you overlay the information surrounding hunter attitude, and also harvest success rates to apply a sembalnce of how the performance happened.
If the information you are looking for is not "readily available", to me, this means we, as sportsmen haven't done the work we should be doing. Shame on us. If you are looking for attitude surveys, ok, cool. Go conduct them. Ask the LDFW to conduct a survey. However, hunter satisfaction can certainly be gleaned from the numbers. You would use 2 figures. First is participation numbers. 2 - Use days spent in the field. That speaks volumes right there, and conclusions can be drawn from that. You want to figure out why hunters are leaving? Look at several factors, including 1- harvest rates, 2 - Acres of public vs private lands, 3 - HUNTER ANNUAL EXPENDITURES, 3 - breakdown of where the $$ are spent to see which spending category is eating up the $$ and which category is growing fastest, or falling fastest, 4 - AGain, time afield, 5 - Amount of huters traveling out of state for hunting pursuits. 
Saying the numbers do not tell you anything is a falsehood. Like I have said before, this stuff isn;t easy. If it was, marketing analysts would get paid 2 bananas and a soda for their work.
Look at this another way. Small and big businesses alike always gauge their performance and next years' strategies based on the numbers, not feelings. Those that base their strategies on feelings wind up out of business. The data we can get is FREE! The data businesses get are based on subscription, with rates running well over $100,000.00 per year (AC Nielsen database subscriptions) to have access to the numbers, which you still need to crunch and compile into meaningful reports.
True the world over. 
Finally, do you think the opponents of our rights, the ARA's and gun control freaks and enviro wackos do not look at these numbers? They know our strength is in economic impact and spending power. Do you think they are blindly throwing stuff against the wall to see what sticks, or do you think they are coming up with a strategy, based on examining the numbers and finding the weak areas to target?
I am sorry, Pmantle, but the statement made of the numbers being meaningless based on lack of context is a cop out of the highest order. Also, if you read how the USF&W reports are compiled (and these are INDUTRY ACCEPTED REPORTS) you would have the answer as how you are counted already. More smoke, and in effect a rather dubious attempt to discredit facts used by such powerhouses as Bass Pro, Gander Mountain, Cabela's, Dick's SPorting Goods, etc., not to mention the many National and statewide organizations such as N***, DU, TU, NRA, NSSF and a plethora of others. If they accept these reports as the benchmark for facts, and you do not, whom do you think is right?


----------



## Free Range

I belong to the NRA, the PBS, the CBA (Colorado Bowhunting Association) and a couple other local clubs. Although the NRA is not strictly bowhunting I’m also a gun owner and they support me in that way. 

I’m not on the board of the PBS I’m just an associate member, so I’m not sure if they are against the x-bow in other seasons, same with the P&Y club. My personal feeling would not be against the x-bow in their own season, or during the rifle or ML season. However as we know when pitted against the firearm there is not much support for the x-bow, not many people want to hunt during firearm season with an x-bow. Are they legal in LA during rifle season?


----------



## PMantle

doctariAFC said:


> Ok. Pmantle, you are really giving me cause for dismay.


There is no reason to be dismayed. Reasonable people disagree all the time. Your comparison of the hunting numbers with the sale of bows is weak at best. It is very easy to track bow sales. Tracking hunter numbers is not so easy as I pointed out in my post.

I'll look at any numbers you want. Will we come to the same conclusions? Who knows? Although numbers don't lie, their value is not always the same. In these two threads, there has been almost no true discussion of the issue. I'd like to move on from the tired request for facts and talk about the issue. If we can't do that, there is no reason to have this thread at all.


----------



## PMantle

Free Range said:


> Are they legal in LA during rifle season?


The dept. of Wildlife says no, but the statute makes room for it. I believe the commision has the power to make them legal whenever they choose under the current scheme.


----------



## progers

Marvin said:


> Yes they are good people, just like the rest of us. We care how they feel but it seems odd they don't care ( or respect) how we feel. They do love hunting as much as we...in gun season.




yea, that is why there is a BIG OL' sign on the forum for the crossbow hunters telling the other hunters to BE NICE!!!



> Crossbows
> What more needs to be said? Be Nice!



Why is that? 


It's not just here but, just about all forums that I visit that has members from both sides. It seems that the xbow community is always catching flack because others do not approve of them. This is not my imagination playing tricks on me. This is documented. 

As far as comparing me to "Pope and Young", I am not the one who is trying to distort the image of "fair chase" to make it seem that all who hunt with an xbow is "unethical". 

~The ACF clearly states that they are for ALL hunters and their rights. 

~The Bow hunting organizations vow to fight the xbow and they do so by NOT allowing people to hunt with them in any season for any game. They use the term "gateway" to justify them for a total attack on xbows.





We are getting off topic again. We are looking for facts of how the crossbow impacted the states that now allow it.


----------



## doctariAFC

Free Range, the website is www.fws.gov

Their publications are in their Library or publications link. The state-specific reports are very difficult to get to. I have every state in the Union's 2001 surveys. The only state that I have 1996 info for is NY. APologies for not having the forsight to download 1996 and 2001 for all states. That one is admittedly my bad.


----------



## progers

PMantle said:


> The dept. of Wildlife says no, but the statute makes room for it. I believe the commision has the power to make them legal whenever they choose under the current scheme.


That's correct PM. 

As the law states now, ONLY handicap and seniors over 60 can use the xbow during all deer seasons. That is the ONLY exception to allow hunting with crossbows for ANY game at ANY time. That is what my beef is. Not to force it into archery season but, to have the right to hunt any and all game during the regulated seasons, if I so choose.

With all due respect to the bowhunters, they have earned the "extra" time in early archery season. Not saying they should have it ALL but, they should have their seperate season as well.



Statement of the Director of the BSBA proving they are against any and all people being able to hunt with a crossbow:

Question directed at the Director of BSBA about this:


> ajs
> 
> 
> 
> Joined: 18 Jan 2006
> Posts: 1
> 
> Posted: Wed Jan 18, 2006 11:27 am Post subject: Curious about crossbows
> 
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> I'm curious about your position on legalization of crossbows. I've been hearing alot of buzz about this topic lately. Is your organization against them altogether, or are you just opposed to allowing them during regular archery season? Would you be opposed to a separate crossbow season?


The BSBA Directors reply: 



> Kenny Borel
> Bowhunting Director/Administrator
> 
> 
> Joined: 05 May 2004
> Posts: 363
> Location: New Iberia, La
> Posted: Wed Jan 18, 2006 7:44 pm Post subject:
> 
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> The official stance of the BSBA is we are not opposed to the elderly and TRULY handicapped hunters from hunting with a crossbow. We ARE opposed to anyone and everyone being able to hunt with a crossbow. Thanks for inquiring
> _________________
> >>>>-------Kenny Borel---------->
> Bowhunting Director/Forum Administrator
> 
> Mathews/Blues Archery Co-op Shooter
> Copper John Shooting Staff
> BCY Shooting Staff
> TRU-Ball Shooting Staff



I think that the Director is clear on their beliefs in this statement.


----------



## Marvin

progers said:


> yea, that is why there is a BIG OL' sign on the forum for the crossbow hunters telling the other hunters to BE NICE!!!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Why is that?
> 
> not sure, I did not create the forum. I think that this bigole mean biased compound company wanted to give you a place to take debates like this. go figure
> 
> 
> It's not just here but, just about all forums that I visit that has members from both sides. It seems that the xbow community is always catching flack because others do not approve of them. This is not my imagination playing tricks on me. This is documented. Whats your point here? And were not catching flack for not accepting them HHmmmm
> 
> As far as comparing me to "Pope and Young", I am not the one who is trying to distort the image of "fair chase" to make it seem that all who hunt with an xbow is "unethical". Your not huh. Interesting. is there any other organization out there that represents bowhunters that has another view on Fair chase? please enlighten it seems you definition of fair chase is the only one that counts?
> 
> ~The ACF clearly states that they are for ALL hunters and their rights. ...yes they are but we have a group for that already and its called SCI...heres their link www.safariclubfoundation.org
> 
> ~The Bow hunting organizations vow to fight the xbow and they do so by NOT allowing people to hunt with them in any season for any game. They use the term "gateway" to justify them for a total attack on xbows.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> We are getting off topic again. We are looking for facts of how the crossbow impacted the states that now allow it.


:thumbs_do :thumbs_do

******I promised Doctari i would warn myself to get back on topic ...now marvin get back on topic********


----------



## doctariAFC

PMantle said:


> There is no reason to be dismayed. Reasonable people disagree all the time. Your comparison of the hunting numbers with the sale of bows is weak at best. It is very easy to track bow sales. Tracking hunter numbers is not so easy as I pointed out in my post.
> 
> I'll look at any numbers you want. Will we come to the same conclusions? Who knows? Although numbers don't lie, their value is not always the same. In these two threads, there has been almost no true discussion of the issue. I'd like to move on from the tired request for facts and talk about the issue. If we can't do that, there is no reason to have this thread at all.


What are the "issues"? If these issues are not based in facts, Pmantle, we will continue the stupidity of arguing one's personal beliefs with eachother. These are hardly issues. These are sentiments. And arguing the sentiments is about as productive as pushing water uphill.

And I do not want people to look at numbers I ask them to. I ask that people get these reports and study them for themselves. Certainly a professionally presented review will go a long way to help better understand what the numbers truly mean. Will we draw the same conclusions? That will be the debate of the issues you refer to. However, until we come to a foundation of fact, so that we can base our claims in fact, rather than sentiment, we do not have a debate. We have a gripefest.


----------



## Free Range

Progers, your quote from the BSBA (Bayou State Bowhunters Association?) does not answer the question. Did he mean in archery season, for deer, I was not there so I have no idea what was said before and after this statement. Is this exactly how the question was posed to him and is this the total of his response? And what about the 50% deal what 50% did the 25% come out of?


----------



## progers

Free Range said:


> Progers, your quote from the BSBA (Bayou State Bowhunters Association?) does not answer the question. Did he mean in archery season, for deer, I was not there so I have no idea what was said before and after this statement. Is this exactly how the question was posed to him and is this the total of his response? And what about the 50% deal what 50% did the 25% come out of?





Moderator, please warn me if I step over the rules here but, this is a reply to the question. And as the BSBA has such a "big" influence over LA Legislative as they have stated, I feel that this is relavant to our case. I will understand if it has to be removed.

I copied this straight from their forum. It has not been edited in anyway. It has not been edited on their end yet. Read the question. The question is very clear. Read the reply. Notice the emphysis on certain WORDS. This takes time to make the letters bold, as it takes time to think about what you say. 

I have no idea who asked the question. It just poped up there one day after we had debated on two other sites before we came here.


I might be reading it wrong so, feel free to tell me what you think this says.



http://www.bayoustatebowhunters.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=365


----------



## doctariAFC

SOunds exactly like it reads. Against anyone and everyone using a crossbow. This would apply to a separate season, within archery season or even during firearms season. No clarifications were provided. And the question that was posed was not directly answered as such, rather, the association's position was provided.

To the defense of BSBA, although I am not 100% certain of this as it pertains to them, many of these types of organizations are also chartered/ affiliated with the larger, National organizations. This provides them with a number of advantages, which I will not delve into. However, these National level orgs do have criteria for clubs and other orgs to meet before granting them a charter under a National Wing. I would be curious to find out what those requirements are, in writing, and understand the consequences of breaking from the P&Y party line of no crossbows, not ever.

That, however, is merely an interesting aside. I will hopefully be able to post some factual insight later on tonight regarding the state of LA hunting, with some comparisons to other states, like KY and GA. Once the conditions are completely on the table, let's then start delving into some of the why's and how's. Again, I will try to do this. I have two meetings tonight withclients, so I may have some troubles getting on the site with enough time to post these findings.


----------



## Jim C

I don't want to rain on your factfinding Parade DOC but a pure request for facts really won't acomplish much here. I THINK EVERYONE accepts the following as TRUE 

1) The introduction of crossbows into archery season in any state that does not already allow them means that 

a) People who have not participated in bow season will now participate in that season

b) that most of those who buy crossbows and join the archery season are gun hunters and thus the purchase of additional HUNTING Licenses is not going to be as large as the number of new ARCHERY season hunters unless the state requires a separate stamp or addition for archery

The issue then becomes whether MORE people utilizing Archery season is either GOOD OR BAD. THE ANSWER TO THAT QUESTION is not one that can be proven with FACTS

for example-I think MORE bowhunters is GOOD even if it means MORE COMPETITION for X number of deer. I BELIEVE that more means more political clout which I see as a positive

OTHERS see this increased competition as BAD and they don't have or don't need evidence of declining deer herds to support that-even if the herd remains stable, MORE PEOPLE in the season means more competition

Frankly having been involved in this issue for three decades now, I Know that facts really aren't the issue-its a belief and a sense of entitlement that is at stake. Facts are useful when people claim -for example-that crossbows shoot at twice the speed of compounds or other such claims but no one really uses those facts for anything more than a facade.

LETS ALL ADMIT the one fact that counts-legalizing crossbows=more people hunting in the archery season. all the discussion of how the bow works etc is meaningless.


----------



## PMantle

Jim C said:


> I don't want to rain on your factfinding Parade DOC but a pure request for facts really won't acomplish much here. I THINK EVERYONE accepts the following as TRUE
> 
> 1) The introduction of crossbows into archery season in any state that does not already allow them means that
> 
> a) People who have not participated in bow season will now participate in that season
> 
> b) that most of those who buy crossbows and join the archery season are gun hunters and thus the purchase of additional HUNTING Licenses is not going to be as large as the number of new ARCHERY season hunters unless the state requires a separate stamp or addition for archery
> 
> The issue then becomes whether MORE people utilizing Archery season is either GOOD OR BAD. THE ANSWER TO THAT QUESTION is not one that can be proven with FACTS
> 
> for example-I think MORE bowhunters is GOOD even if it means MORE COMPETITION for X number of deer. I BELIEVE that more means more political clout which I see as a positive
> 
> OTHERS see this increased competition as BAD and they don't have or don't need evidence of declining deer herds to support that-even if the herd remains stable, MORE PEOPLE in the season means more competition
> 
> Frankly having been involved in this issue for three decades now, I Know that facts really aren't the issue-its a belief and a sense of entitlement that is at stake. Facts are useful when people claim -for example-that crossbows shoot at twice the speed of compounds or other such claims but no one really uses those facts for anything more than a facade.
> 
> LETS ALL ADMIT the one fact that counts-legalizing crossbows=more people hunting in the archery season. all the discussion of how the bow works etc is meaningless.


Excellent post Jim. Your best ever(that I've ever read). It answers some of the questions I've posed before that no one would touch. We disagree about crossbow use in archery season, but at least we see the issue for what it is.


----------



## doctariAFC

Jim C said:


> I don't want to rain on your factfinding Parade DOC but a pure request for facts really won't acomplish much here. I THINK EVERYONE accepts the following as TRUE
> 
> 1) The introduction of crossbows into archery season in any state that does not already allow them means that
> 
> a) People who have not participated in bow season will now participate in that season
> 
> b) that most of those who buy crossbows and join the archery season are gun hunters and thus the purchase of additional HUNTING Licenses is not going to be as large as the number of new ARCHERY season hunters unless the state requires a separate stamp or addition for archery
> 
> The issue then becomes whether MORE people utilizing Archery season is either GOOD OR BAD. THE ANSWER TO THAT QUESTION is not one that can be proven with FACTS
> 
> for example-I think MORE bowhunters is GOOD even if it means MORE COMPETITION for X number of deer. I BELIEVE that more means more political clout which I see as a positive
> 
> OTHERS see this increased competition as BAD and they don't have or don't need evidence of declining deer herds to support that-even if the herd remains stable, MORE PEOPLE in the season means more competition
> 
> Frankly having been involved in this issue for three decades now, I Know that facts really aren't the issue-its a belief and a sense of entitlement that is at stake. Facts are useful when people claim -for example-that crossbows shoot at twice the speed of compounds or other such claims but no one really uses those facts for anything more than a facade.
> 
> LETS ALL ADMIT the one fact that counts-legalizing crossbows=more people hunting in the archery season. all the discussion of how the bow works etc is meaningless.


I know, JimC, but this is a vital education process, and, quite frankly, we don't know crossbows=more hunters in archery for certain. W can say this all we want, but is it accurate? Perhaps, but without backup, all it is is conjecture. The other element, too, and perhaps the big fear generator, is not that more hunters would be in the woods, its HOW MANY hunters actually would be added. We also need fact finding on this one, and plenty of information is out there to at least come up with a baseline figure.

The "entitlement" scenario is why heels are dug in. This also translates into (digging heels) the loss of perspective of what archery hunting is. When archery hunting began as its own special season, it was done to afford all hunters the additional choice to stalk the woods with archery equipment, without firearms in the woods. This has been lost over the years, partly due to many attacks and attempted erosions of archery seasons, partyly due to the generational loss of facts, now leading some to argue that archery season was set up for the archers. Yes and no. Archery season was set up for ALL Hunters who chose to use a bow. Symantics, but accurate ones.

Facts make for debate. Opinions and perceievd issues (on both sides) create division and animosity. Let's stay with the facts, get them on the table, and work together, for a change


----------



## Free Range

Jim, is that you? I think you are probably right it seems to be that x-bows = more people in the woods during archery season. At least Ohio seems to support that claim. Would all the x-bow users still be hunting during archery season if not for the x-bow? I doubt it. And you are right it boils down to is this a good thing or bad. I personally don’t believe bowhunters need more clout, hunters as a whole need more clout. And the x-bow is not going to provide that clout, one could argue that it could be one of the tools to reach that end. But we have no idea as to how much impact it will have, thus Doc’s facts, are pertinent in that they could shed some light as to what the impact is or is not. 
One of the “facts” we also need to determine is hunter satisfaction, it’s on every survey I have ever taken from any DNR. How does this increase of people in the woods during archery season impact hunter satisfaction, i.e. what does it do to the quality hunting experience. I know this is subjective from one person to another. Out here in the west people start complaining if they see ANY other hunters while they are hunting. Back east it may be ok as long as you can’t see anyone from your tree stand. By doubling the number of hunters in the field during a specific season, this is bound to impact the experience of hunting. I good situation if they are all “new” hunters, we could then work together to find a solution. But if the hunters come from within our ranks, by moving gun hunters into archery season that otherwise wouldn’t have, then what do we do. We have lessened the experience for those that have been bowhunting all along without adding real numbers to our ranks, for clout. 

Doc I tried to get on the USFW but it locked up when I tried to view one of the studies, I will try again later. I would like to know what the numbers are, because as much as I dislike the x-bow being used during archery season, if there is real evidence that it will help us hunters in the areas mentioned then I could be inclined to take a closer look at the possibilities.


----------



## Jim C

DOC-in all fairness, there is no debate on this- Crossbows do mean more people hunting in bow season and EVERY single group that has a vested interest in this matter agrees on this. IN COURT an admission of fact by an opponent is an iron clad piece of evidence. WE on both sides of this issue both admit that so why debate it?

The fact is many xbow hunters in Ohio use xbows and nothing else. What are the facts? The FACTS are as good as the ones that are used to determine how many deer we have. Short of requiring licenses for crossbows and a record thereof, you are not going to get the kind of facts you seem to think are the only ones that count. As a pro staff archer and then an owner of a shop I know darn well that some xbow buyers wouldn't use a compound for various reasons just as some compound users have no interest in hunting with recurves if that was all that was legal.

The anti xbow side has several points-none of which are provable or disprovable by FACTS

1) claiming xbows will destroy the tradition of archery-a tradition not destroyed by compounds? How does a fact support or disprove that given that its a SUBJECTIVE feeling as to EVEN what that tradition MEANS

2) Sure, some of the claims about xbows are easily destroyed but that in itself proves nothing since those claims (like xbow novices can out shoot pro compound archers) are mere strawmen or facades for the real issue which I have already set forth-MORE PEOPLE in the archery season

3) Then we have more belief issues-THERE IS NO DOUBT that legalization of crossbows means more money for xbow makers-I don't have a problem with that-others do-BUT WHAT FACT can be used to argue against or for that? ITS A BELIEF ISSUE

4) some will say that there is something wrong that people can use easy to use compounds and crossbows rather than being "manly" (I find this funny) and using a recurve or longbow for the RECREATIONAL activity of bowhunting. AGAIN, this comes down to more or less people in the woods because its a FACT that increasing the TIME COST to bowhunt leads to less people hunting. However, from a pure aesthetic point of view-YOU CANNOT produce facts that prove or deny that society, hunting, or archery season is better off or worse off if people use black widows, Martins, Mathews or Hortons to hunt with. YOU cannnot find a fact that says a man is more worthy or more valuable because he releases his arrow with his fingers, a Scott caliper or an Excalibur crossbow trigger


----------



## doctariAFC

Free Range said:


> Jim, is that you? I think you are probably right it seems to be that x-bows = more people in the woods during archery season. At least Ohio seems to support that claim. Would all the x-bow users still be hunting during archery season if not for the x-bow? I doubt it. And you are right it boils down to is this a good thing or bad. I personally don’t believe bowhunters need more clout, hunters as a whole need more clout. And the x-bow is not going to provide that clout, one could argue that it could be one of the tools to reach that end. But we have no idea as to how much impact it will have, thus Doc’s facts, are pertinent in that they could shed some light as to what the impact is or is not.
> One of the “facts” we also need to determine is hunter satisfaction, it’s on every survey I have ever taken from any DNR. How does this increase of people in the woods during archery season impact hunter satisfaction, i.e. what does it do to the quality hunting experience. I know this is subjective from one person to another. Out here in the west people start complaining if they see ANY other hunters while they are hunting. Back east it may be ok as long as you can’t see anyone from your tree stand. By doubling the number of hunters in the field during a specific season, this is bound to impact the experience of hunting. I good situation if they are all “new” hunters, we could then work together to find a solution. But if the hunters come from within our ranks, by moving gun hunters into archery season that otherwise wouldn’t have, then what do we do. We have lessened the experience for those that have been bowhunting all along without adding real numbers to our ranks, for clout.
> 
> Doc I tried to get on the USFW but it locked up when I tried to view one of the studies, I will try again later. I would like to know what the numbers are, because as much as I dislike the x-bow being used during archery season, if there is real evidence that it will help us hunters in the areas mentioned then I could be inclined to take a closer look at the possibilities.


Free Range, you hit the nail right on the head! Kudos. Thank you for understanding much of why I am demanding a fact finding and fact-oriented debate. It sheds the much needed light into the realities we need to grasp so intelligent and productive conversation can be had.

Hey, PM me your email address, and I will email you whatever reports you would like to see. I have the complete surveys for 2001, National and EVERY STATE, plus I have National for 1996. I may even have National 1991 kicking around, but I haven't looked at that report in a while and am unsure it even still exists on my HDD.


----------



## Free Range

> now leading some to argue that archery season was set up for the archers. Yes and no. Archery season was set up for ALL Hunters who chose to use a bow. Symantics, but accurate ones.


Symantec’s yes, but accurate?? Archery season was pushed for by archers, not gun hunters, in fact I would be willing to bet there were gun hunters that fought against it. Can any hunter join archery season yes, but only archers will, you see it is part of the requirement, you must shoot a bow to bow hunt, you cannot use a rifle, no matter what your handicap. The season was set up for archers, providing archers a season away from gun hunters, not really so much away from gun hunters as much as away from the crowds gun hunters bring.


----------



## Jim C

doctariAFC said:


> Facts make for debate. Opinions and perceievd issues (on both sides) create division and animosity. Let's stay with the facts, get them on the table, and work together, for a change



I disagree-there are NO FACTS available to deal with the following disagreement

1) I believe that more bowhunters is good and I support xbows because I believe xbows will bring more people into bowhunting. I also believe that its stupid to treat one form of bow different from another VERSUS

2) I think there are too many people bowhunting and I believe xbows will increase that number which I do not want

what is there to work together on?

Its like me saying I should own any gun that the police are issued while the Gun banners say I shouldln't be able to own any.

Gun ban appeasers are under the illusion that gun banners main goal is public safety (where common ground can be found) versus gun banning. I have no common ground with gun banners and while one might compromise you are not achieving a common ground

On xbows, there is no common ground on this narrow issue. Its not like the issue will xbows bring more people in? we both agree with the bottom line-we just have different views as to the good or bad.

WHAT WILL HELP archery then perhaps-but again-its we think more is good, they think more is bad.

I think you are tilting at windmills doc


----------



## PMantle

Jim C said:


> I disagree-there are NO FACTS available to deal with the following disagreement
> 
> 1) I believe that more bowhunters is good and I support xbows because I believe xbows will bring more people into bowhunting. I also believe that its stupid to treat one form of bow different from another VERSUS
> 
> 2) I think there are too many people bowhunting and I believe xbows will increase that number which I do not want
> 
> what is there to work together on?
> 
> Its like me saying I should own any gun that the police are issued while the Gun banners say I shouldln't be able to own any.
> 
> Gun ban appeasers are under the illusion that gun banners main goal is public safety (where common ground can be found) versus gun banning. I have no common ground with gun banners and while one might compromise you are not achieving a common ground
> 
> On xbows, there is no common ground on this narrow issue. Its not like the issue will xbows bring more people in? we both agree with the bottom line-we just have different views as to the good or bad.
> 
> WHAT WILL HELP archery then perhaps-but again-its we think more is good, they think more is bad.
> 
> I think you are tilting at windmills doc


Bingo!


----------



## doctariAFC

Jim C said:


> I disagree-there are NO FACTS available to deal with the following disagreement
> 
> 1) I believe that more bowhunters is good and I support xbows because I believe xbows will bring more people into bowhunting. I also believe that its stupid to treat one form of bow different from another VERSUS
> 
> 2) I think there are too many people bowhunting and I believe xbows will increase that number which I do not want
> 
> what is there to work together on?
> 
> Its like me saying I should own any gun that the police are issued while the Gun banners say I shouldln't be able to own any.
> 
> Gun ban appeasers are under the illusion that gun banners main goal is public safety (where common ground can be found) versus gun banning. I have no common ground with gun banners and while one might compromise you are not achieving a common ground
> 
> On xbows, there is no common ground on this narrow issue. Its not like the issue will xbows bring more people in? we both agree with the bottom line-we just have different views as to the good or bad.
> 
> WHAT WILL HELP archery then perhaps-but again-its we think more is good, they think more is bad.
> 
> I think you are tilting at windmills doc


Perhaps. Perhaps not. In any industry or activity or business, each segment can only sustain so many declines before the plug must be pulled, right? In terms of hunting, be it archery, firearms, primitive or modern, big game or small game, we can only sustain a certain level of losses before the plug gets pulled on us. Our strengths are found not only in the economic impact we, as a group (hunters in total) deliver, but also the incredible works we do in conservation of our natural resources. Like our economic impact to economies at local, state and Federal levels, our revenues also benefit the Conservation Fund - the vehicle for which ALL conservation work is financed.

This is where facts are so incredibly important and indeed pertinent. I have been screaming at NYS for the last two-plus years, with hard, documented and irrefutable evidence stating that the numbers and the trends dictate we concentrate our efforts in specific areas, coming up even with a business plan for success complete with benchmarks and objectives. I was being called out as a "chicken little". 

Guess What.... Last Thursday the Erie County Conservation Fund Advisory Board rep reported to the Federation that NY CF wil have a deficit of $12 MILLION for this year. This is the FIRST TIME the CF will be facing a deficit! CWD containment certainly caused a drain. Gov Pataki has signed into law emergency funding of $7.5 MIL to the CF to recoup the CWD costs. SO where is the remaining $4.5 MIL going to come from? Another license fee increase? Got news. NY experienced a license fee increase in 2002, and this increase was HUGE, 12%-20%, depending on the license. NYS then decided to CUT the General Budget funding to the CF, from these license sales, effectively chopping the increase from being of any real benefit to the CF. Yep, I'm a chicken little. Like Nostradamus... How did I know this was coming? I looked at the FACTS and analyzed them.

There's your common ground, JimC. Conservation and protecting our rights and heritage. However, this common ground is never seen without getting educated about the facts. Why? Because we let the artificial, baseless bickering dominate the discussions. Shame on BOTH groups for perpetuating this condition. Guilt in this scenario is shared equally. Hey, I should know, I'm an EOP

Now, let's do the hard work. Its easy to make these comments. Its hard to get to the facts. The only reward from doing the easy thing is that it was easy. Doing the hard work, on the other hand, well....


----------



## Jim C

well Doc here is the problem-you can find all the facts you want and nothing you will find is ever going to convince some people that more hunters in "their" season is GOOD even if you prove to them it is NOT BAD or not harmful. SINCE facts do NOT DRIVE most of those in the Debate, I think you are wasting your time and I am not going to waste mine focusing on an area that plays no real role in the debate with those who actually debate it though I DO ADMIT that providing facts to DNR's that more archery hunters is SUPPORTABLE by the HERD is USEFUL

It again is much like the gun debate-many of us USED TO WASTE OUR TIME trying to show that gun control doesn't prevent CRIME. That might be useful to help convince some members of the public but its a WASTE OF TIME when you debate gun banners. THEY ALREADY KNOW gun control doesn't increase public safety and they support gun bans for reasons that HAVE NOTHING TO DO WITH public safety. Showing crime rates is useful ONLY to the extent it makes the gun banners appear to be liars when they post facades hiding their real reasons.

That is why I spent so much time destroying the faux arguments raised by the PBS and others-the claims that xbows shoot at twice the speed as compounds, that xbow novices outshoot pro compound archers etc-I AM NOT GOING TO CONVINCE "the source" Marvin and others with that because they know I am right. I am never going to convince them xbows should be allowed in "their" season by showing them that the proffered reasons for opposing xbows are wrong because they DO NOT BASE THEIR POSITION on such ancillary arguments. MY ONLY REASON for destroying those points was to discredit the anti xbow movement by showing that their stated reasons are LIES-I cannot factually destroy a claim that SOMEONE WANTS LESS PEOPLE IN THE WOODS because that is not a FACTUAL issue


----------



## PMantle

Jim C said:


> I think you are wasting your time and I am not going to waste mine focusing on an area that plays no real role in the debate with those who actually debate it though I DO ADMIT that providing facts to DNR's that more archery hunters is SUPPORTABLE by the HERD is USEFUL


Yup, very useful. I think you would find, if the numbers were there, that the places where the herd actually could use more hunting can't get it because those deer are on lands where the people hunting them choose not to manage wisely. Giving them an additional weapon won't change their decisions on how many deer to take.

There is a push right now to get La. on a tag system with a 2/4 buck doe limit instead of the current unenforceable honor system of 6 deer with no limit on bucks. To this La. hunter and voter, fixing the limit issue is way more important than any season issue.


----------



## doctariAFC

Jim C said:


> well Doc here is the problem-you can find all the facts you want and nothing you will find is ever going to convince some people that more hunters in "their" season is GOOD even if you prove to them it is NOT BAD or not harmful. SINCE facts do NOT DRIVE most of those in the Debate, I think you are wasting your time and I am not going to waste mine focusing on an area that plays no real role in the debate with those who actually debate it though I DO ADMIT that providing facts to DNR's that more archery hunters is SUPPORTABLE by the HERD is USEFUL
> 
> It again is much like the gun debate-many of us USED TO WASTE OUR TIME trying to show that gun control doesn't prevent CRIME. That might be useful to help convince some members of the public but its a WASTE OF TIME when you debate gun banners. THEY ALREADY KNOW gun control doesn't increase public safety and they support gun bans for reasons that HAVE NOTHING TO DO WITH public safety. Showing crime rates is useful ONLY to the extent it makes the gun banners appear to be liars when they post facades hiding their real reasons.
> 
> That is why I spent so much time destroying the faux arguments raised by the PBS and others-the claims that xbows shoot at twice the speed as compounds, that xbow novices outshoot pro compound archers etc-I AM NOT GOING TO CONVINCE "the source" Marvin and others with that because they know I am right. I am never going to convince them xbows should be allowed in "their" season by showing them that the proffered reasons for opposing xbows are wrong because they DO NOT BASE THEIR POSITION on such ancillary arguments. MY ONLY REASON for destroying those points was to discredit the anti xbow movement by showing that their stated reasons are LIES-I cannot factually destroy a claim that SOMEONE WANTS LESS PEOPLE IN THE WOODS because that is not a FACTUAL issue


I understand exactly what you are saying. Let's follow a chain of reasoning, here.
Start with the assumption - anti-crossbow archers do not want more hunters in the woods during archery season.

Ok. The claim to refute this is, no, we want BOW hunters, but not "lazy" gun hunters picking a crossbow because it is easy.

With roughly 70% of bowhunters also using firearms, I have no idea where this notion of more gun hunters will be in the woods using a crossbow. Roughly 20% of Firearms Hunters also archery hunt (all bow types, even in OH)

So, through the analysis of the numbers, we can determine several things, and prove these to be true. Has the % of archery hunters suddenly taken a larger share of firearms hunters and placed them in archery season because of the crossbow? What is that larger share? We can examine OH numbers for that answer. I will provide the analysis on this tonight.

Does this potential increase in firearms hunters going crossbow off-set the declines in archery being experienced? Yes or No, and what is the ratio? We may be able to leverage GA and KY numbers for an answer to this question.

How about harvest information? We already have established that crossbow may be slightly higher in harvest rates than vertical bows. Could be due to higher recovery/ lower wounding rates. Could be a function of better practiced shooters with the crossbow vs verticals. Could be that it offers an "easier" way. If the success rates are only marginally higher with crossbow versus verticals, then the "easier" way argument is absurd. If success rates for crossbow are significantly higher (say 10% for vertical, 20% for crossbow) then the "easy" argument makes a little sense, but, again, if participation from firearms hunters is not as high as is feared, its all a moot point.

Bottom line is this. No one can ever "destroy" an argument without evidence and facts, documented and well presented. If the opposition (on either side) puts their head in teh sands. so be it.


----------



## PMantle

doctariAFC said:


> With roughly 70% of bowhunters also using firearms, I have no idea where this notion of more gun hunters will be in the woods using a crossbow. .



"Using firearms" is vague. I am a bow hunter and I use a firearm, just not for deer. I would love to see Louisiana figures on the % of bowhunters who also hunt deer with a firearm. I would bet it would be close, one way or another, to 30%.


----------



## Jim C

Doc-I admire your effort but I have been involved in this alot longer than you have and I have the advantage of living in "ground zero" when it comes to crossbows. Thinking facts are going to convince the traditionalists that a crossbow is proper archery hunting gear is akin to me trying to use facts that steak tastes better than lamb or blonds are hotter than brunettes.

trying to convince people who think that if there is another hunter within a country mile of them is bad that allowing crossbows really won't impact them is a waste of time and no facts are going to change that.

Right now the best I and others can do is to show the DNR's that the "arguments" advanced against xbows are based on either lies or are really not the true reasons for the opposition because if you destroy the credibility of an organization or a person, you tend to destroy their real argument even if its one based purely on opinion

BTW the "lazy gun hunter" is again an opinion not subject to fact. To some the mere fact someone hunts with a gun makes them lazy is a position that cannot be defeated with facts.


----------



## PMantle

Jim C said:


> Right now the best I and others can do is to show the DNR's that the "arguments" advanced against xbows are based on either lies or are really not the true reasons for the opposition because if you destroy the credibility of an organization or a person, you tend to destroy their real argument even if its one based purely on opinion


Nice  One does not need lies to make a case against crossbow use. You've supplied plenty of facts to use against them in your own posts.


----------



## Jim C

PMantle said:


> Nice  One does not need lies to make a case against crossbow use. You've supplied plenty of facts to use against them in your own posts.



I was talking about the pretextual arguments groups like the PBS advance such as

1) xbows at 300 FPS shoot "at almost twice the speed" as most compounds

2) novices with no shooting experience can pick up a crossbow and within minutes shoot groups at 65 yards that pro compound archers can manage out to only 25 yards

3) that xbows are the weapon of choice of poachers

4) that xbow archers are less safe than compound hunters

there is no argument based on facts available for your side other than the argument that more archery season archers is bad and I already admit that xbows=MORE ARCHERY SEASON archers

nothing more nothing less

either you think more archery season hunters is good, or you think its bad

all the other stuff is mere window dressing or camoflauge


----------



## doctariAFC

FACT... JimC and Pmantle are Lawyers.

FACT - I have yet to see any substantive FACTS come from either one of you. Only efforts on both sides to discredit facts in this debate - before we have compiled them and presented them. I see a serious weakness on both sides, here, gentlemen.

FACT - I am not interested in persuading anybody that a crossbow is legitimate archery equipment or not. I do not care what anyone thinks as an individual or an organization. Each individual has a right to their own opinions, and each organization has a right to their own position. This debate isn't about "changing the hearts and minds" of traditionalists, or compound shooters that are now trying to wrap themselves in the traditionalist cloak. Moot point. What is at hand is whether crossbows should be allowed as a choice. Your personal opinion has nothing to do with it, I do not care how passionate and convicted you present the opinion. 

FACT - If both of you would make a case with FACTS using as much passion as you use in trying to argue personal opinion, well, I would be absolutely stunned and probably have a coronary.

Now, if you wish to join this debate under the rules of this debate, using facts, let's get her done. If you are not interested, both of you will be banned. Savvy?


----------



## doctariAFC

*And One More Fact*

Seasons were implemented, at first, to reign in the 24/7/365 hunting which was causing loss of our Nation's wildlife. 

As we became successful, we as a group of sportsmen began adding special seasons to provide opportunities of different challenge. Wildlife populations could withstand additional days of pressure and pursuit and sportsmen embraced these changes.

Now, regarding archery season. Or any other season for that matter. We did not introduce archery season at the onset to be the be all and end all of defined choices. My FACTS for this are the continual changes we have experienced in EVERY SEASON regarding legal implement introduction.

Specific to Archery - Long/ Recurve/ Stick Bows, finger held, wooden arrows. Then, Compound Bows, with sites. ALuminum shaft arrows, to fiber and carbon arrows. Fixed blades to punch cutter, pin sights to lighted sights, guesstimate range finding to laser range finders, finger relase to mechanical release. All changes geared at providing more choice, Proves that seasons at outset were NOT set in stone.

True for firearms. Shotgun slugs to rifled barrels and sabots and conicals. No scopes to scopes. Blackpwoder from powder patch ball, flint locks, to allowing percussions, to the new in lines. Iron sights only to scopes permitted. Round balls to sabot and conical. 

Nothing isd set in stone. It may be for you, personally, but the evolution of hunting has FACTUALLY demonstrated that change is not bad, and it has been happening to the benefit of hunters and hunting since day one.

NOw, you wanna argue, do it in another thread. Get busy with the afcst, I welcome any and all from every side of the rainbow. DOn't want to use facts? Be quiet or get banned. I am an EOP. And I have an itchy finger...


----------



## thesource

doctariAFC said:


> With roughly 70% of bowhunters also using firearms, I have no idea where this notion of more gun hunters will be in the woods using a crossbow. Roughly 20% of Firearms Hunters also archery hunt (all bow types, even in OH)


I think your facts are mistaken.

OH has 400,000 gun hunters and 200,000 "archery" hunters.

Assuming you were right. 20% of 400,000 = 80,000 gun hunters who bowhunt, meaning that 120,000 "archers" in OH ONLY hunt with a bow or crossbow and never use a gun.


That's not right.

As far as your first point - let's take NY numbers, let's say 2002 ish.

200,000 bowhunters. 700,000 gun hunters. That's 500,000 potential gun hunters who can't be bothered to learn to bowhunt who may be inclined to use a crossbow if it were legal. How can you have "no idea where this notion of more gun hunters will be in the woods using a crossbow." ?


----------



## cynic

thesource, is there any documentation that supports that statement that would refute his claim? I would like to see the numbers and how the stat that you feel is wrong was compiled and how you came to the conclusion that HE is wrong.
20% of 400,000 gun hunters = 80,000 gun hunters that archery hunt
70% of 200,000 archers = 140,000 for a total of 60,000 archery equipment only hunters if my math serves me right


----------



## thesource

cynic said:


> thesource, is there any documentation that supports that statement that would refute his claim? I would like to see the numbers and how the stat that you feel is wrong was compiled and how you came to the conclusion that HE is wrong.


*Too lazy to look it up yourself? Here's part of it...*

_2004 Deer-Gun Season Closes
Preliminary Report Finds Total Number Killed Up 8 Percent 
Ohio hunters took 125,681 deer during the state’s popular weeklong deer-gun season that recently concluded, according to the Ohio Department of Natural Resources (ODNR) Division of Wildlife.

The preliminary total of deer killed during this year’s gun season is 8 percent more than the previous year’s preliminary total of 116,004. The season ran from Monday, November 29, to Sunday, December 5.

When combining the results from the first six weeks of archery season with the youth season and the deer-gun hunting season, a total of 173,320 deer have been killed so far this deer-hunting season - compared to 157,453 last year at this time. In all, hunters took a total of 197,790 deer during all of last year’s hunting seasons. Counties reporting the highest numbers of deer brought to Ohio check stations last week included Tuscarawas with 5,103; Coshocton with 4,424; Washington with 4,221; Guernsey with 3,957; and Muskingum with 3,883 (view statistics for all Ohio counties). A photo gallery of deer taken this season throughout Ohio is now available online - check it out! 

The statewide deer population was estimated to be 700,000 on October 1, prior to the start of the hunting season. Approximately *400,000 hunters *were expected to participate in the statewide deer-gun season. _


*Here's the rest .... my mistake. Looks like there are 250000 "archers" in OH, meaning Doc's statistics are even more untrue.

*
News Release
FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE

November 15, 2004
_
OHIO DEER HUNTERS ON RECORD-SETTING PACE 
Harvest numbers up 13 percent 
during first six weeks of archery season 
COLUMBUS, OH -- Bowhunters took 40,319 deer in Ohio during the first six weeks of the statewide deer-archery hunting season, according to the Ohio Department of Natural Resources (ODNR) Division of Wildlife. This preliminary figure is 13 percent more than the number harvested during the same time period last year when hunters killed a record 36,241 deer.

"Bowhunting is one of the fastest growing sports in the country,” said Steven A. Gray, chief of the Division of Wildlife. “Last year, Ohio archers hit a new high with more than 25 percent of the deer kill coming from the bowhunting season. This year looks as though it will produce even higher numbers.”

Counties reporting the highest numbers of deer brought to check stations included Licking (1,590), Holmes (1,471), Tuscarawas (1,393), Coshocton (1,203), and Trumbull (1,174).

The statewide deer population was estimated to be 700,000 in early October. Approximately *250,000 bowhunters *are expected to participate in the statewide deer-archery hunting season that began October 2 and remains open through January 31, including Sundays and during the deer-gun season that runs November 29 through December 5.

Last year, bowhunters harvested a total of 50,564 deer during the four-month Ohio archery season._


----------



## thesource

cynic said:


> I would like to see the numbers and how the stat that you feel is wrong was compiled and how you came to the conclusion that HE is wrong.


OK



doctariAFC said:


> With roughly 70% of bowhunters also using firearms, I have no idea where this notion of more gun hunters will be in the woods using a crossbow. Roughly 20% of Firearms Hunters also archery hunt (all bow types, even in OH)


So accoording to this "fact" -

Bowhunters who use firearms should equal firearms hunters who use bows, right?

Therefore 70% x Bowhunters = 20% x gunhunters

But 70% x 250000 bowhunters = 175000

and 20% x 400000 gunhunters = 80000


At least in Ohio, his 20% rule doesn't hold. 

The very reason he is denying IS the reason. It could very well hold true in OH that 20% of gun hunters bowhunt. But another ~25% are CROSSBOW hunters.....trashing both of his hypothesis.

1. _ Roughly 20% of Firearms Hunters also archery hunt (all bow types, even in OH)_ - Mathmetically proven *FALSE* in Ohio

2. _ I have no idea where this notion of more gun hunters will be in the woods using a crossbow_.- Logically proven *FALSE* in Ohio


----------



## progers




----------



## progers

*I don't think so Tim.......*



thesource said:


> OK
> 
> 
> 
> So accoording to this "fact" -
> 
> Bowhunters who use firearms should equal firearms hunters who use bows, right?



That would be NO. The "bowhunters" will bow hunt thru gun season more and not pick up a rifle. However, the "gun hunters" that bow hunt will put down the bow and go back to gun hunting. Therefore, the answer to your question is NO, bowhunters who use firearms will not equal firearms hunters who use bows.



Now, about your other comment:



> Here's the rest .... my mistake. Looks like there are 250000 "archers" in OH, meaning Doc's statistics are even more untrue.



The part you have misread said, "*Approximately* 250,000 bowhunters are *expected* to participate in the statewide deer-archery hunting season." 

"Approximately" and "expected" and the part where it says "so far this deer-hunting season" means the report you are giving is just a FORECASTED report. You need to go find the report that was done after the end of the season when they have all the FACTS present so we can look at them. :wink:


----------



## cynic

thesource said:


> OK
> 
> 
> 
> So accoording to this "fact" -
> 
> Bowhunters who use firearms should equal firearms hunters who use bows, right?
> 
> Therefore 70% x Bowhunters = 20% x gunhunters
> 
> But 70% x 250000 bowhunters = 175000
> 
> and 20% x 400000 gunhunters = 80000
> 
> 
> At least in Ohio, his 20% rule doesn't hold.
> 
> The very reason he is denying IS the reason. It could very well hold true in OH that 20% of gun hunters bowhunt. But another ~25% are CROSSBOW hunters.....trashing both of his hypothesis.
> 
> 1. _ Roughly 20% of Firearms Hunters also archery hunt (all bow types, even in OH)_ - Mathmetically proven *FALSE* in Ohio
> 
> 2. _ I have no idea where this notion of more gun hunters will be in the woods using a crossbow_.- Logically proven *FALSE* in Ohio


70% of 250,000 does equal = 175,000 bow hunter that also gun hunt so therefore you must subtract that from the total # of bow hunters. No I am not too lazy to look it up myself. I am glad to see someone else willing to help with the numbers


----------



## cynic

Doctari or PR can you look at the figures that you have and see how far off the estimates are from the figures
70% 250,000 = 175,000 archers that gun hunt
250,000 - 175,000 = 75,000 archery equipment users. As the projected numbers are higher than the statistical number how far out of line is the percentage


----------



## doctariAFC

thesource said:


> I think your facts are mistaken.
> 
> OH has 400,000 gun hunters and 200,000 "archery" hunters.
> 
> Assuming you were right. 20% of 400,000 = 80,000 gun hunters who bowhunt, meaning that 120,000 "archers" in OH ONLY hunt with a bow or crossbow and never use a gun.
> 
> 
> That's not right.
> 
> As far as your first point - let's take NY numbers, let's say 2002 ish.
> 
> 200,000 bowhunters. 700,000 gun hunters. That's 500,000 potential gun hunters who can't be bothered to learn to bowhunt who may be inclined to use a crossbow if it were legal. How can you have "no idea where this notion of more gun hunters will be in the woods using a crossbow." ?


Source. First off. Let me get you up to speed. This debate is about Louisiana, not Ohio. 

Next, the information presented was a National Average figure, not specific to any particular State.

Third, I do believe the participation figures clearly illustrate that 70% of archery hunters continue to hunt right through the regular season. If, as many love to claim, that archers cannot use their bows during firearms season because of the spooky deer and all that jazz (which is legit) then clearly they are pickiung up their good ol shotgun or rifle and having at it. When I find the time to compile and complete this overall review on LA I will have that information incuded, with as much specificity as I can possibly glean from USF&W, and state projected reports as well. 

That being said, I know more than just a couple archers who hunt straight through to the end of extended season with their RECURVES! Granted, these are the exception to the rule, but they do exist. These guys are what anyone would consider purists, and ya know what? They could give a hoot about what hunter source is carrying in the woods. 

So, clearly we can banter back and forth with the speculative and personal experience and I know these folks and you know those folks. What does any of that accomplish? NOTHING!

Get the FACTS together. Delve deeper into the info to find the answers.

And, again, this is Louisiana. No comments about OHIO unless we begin the comparatives to determine simiarities and reasonable results expectation.


----------



## PMantle

doctariAFC said:


> FACT... JimC and Pmantle are Lawyers.
> 
> FACT - I have yet to see any substantive FACTS come from either one of you. Only efforts on both sides to discredit facts in this debate - before we have compiled them and presented them. I see a serious weakness on both sides, here, gentlemen.
> 
> FACT - I am not interested in persuading anybody that a crossbow is legitimate archery equipment or not. I do not care what anyone thinks as an individual or an organization. Each individual has a right to their own opinions, and each organization has a right to their own position. This debate isn't about "changing the hearts and minds" of traditionalists, or compound shooters that are now trying to wrap themselves in the traditionalist cloak. Moot point. What is at hand is whether crossbows should be allowed as a choice. Your personal opinion has nothing to do with it, I do not care how passionate and convicted you present the opinion.
> 
> FACT - If both of you would make a case with FACTS using as much passion as you use in trying to argue personal opinion, well, I would be absolutely stunned and probably have a coronary.
> 
> Now, if you wish to join this debate under the rules of this debate, using facts, let's get her done. If you are not interested, both of you will be banned. Savvy?


Wow. Jim really was right. You really don't get it. You sound like a broken record with this facts deal. You claim to be the man with his thumb on them, yet we have nothing to work with. Using facts alone in a debate like this is idiotic. It gets us no where. We are talking leglistation here. Facts without feelings of those affected are worthless. Agencies usually have comment periods before instituting change. Why? They want to know how the affected FEEL about it. As I am sure I will be banned from this discussion, buh-bye. You're all gonna spin your wheels here unless discussions like what Jim and I have been having can continue. It's a La. issue anyway, so as Mung said, this is a massive waste of time until something is actually introduced. 

Jim and Cynic, see you another forum where freedom of expression is better tolerated, although it can't be the crossbow forum as that moderator is actually worse than this one. Feel free t PM me with any questions or topics for discussion.


----------



## Jim C

doctariAFC said:


> FACT... JimC and Pmantle are Lawyers.
> 
> FACT - I have yet to see any substantive FACTS come from either one of you. Only efforts on both sides to discredit facts in this debate - before we have compiled them and presented them. I see a serious weakness on both sides, here, gentlemen.
> 
> FACT - I am not interested in persuading anybody that a crossbow is legitimate archery equipment or not. I do not care what anyone thinks as an individual or an organization. Each individual has a right to their own opinions, and each organization has a right to their own position. This debate isn't about "changing the hearts and minds" of traditionalists, or compound shooters that are now trying to wrap themselves in the traditionalist cloak. Moot point. What is at hand is whether crossbows should be allowed as a choice. Your personal opinion has nothing to do with it, I do not care how passionate and convicted you present the opinion.
> 
> FACT - If both of you would make a case with FACTS using as much passion as you use in trying to argue personal opinion, well, I would be absolutely stunned and probably have a coronary.
> 
> Now, if you wish to join this debate under the rules of this debate, using facts, let's get her done. If you are not interested, both of you will be banned. Savvy?



I think you are limiting the discussion artificially. I think your limitations are not allowing the debate to encompass what takes place in the real world. I think what I have said is what most of the people here feel. I have not violated any of the RULES On this board and I have stated-BASED ON HAVING FAR MORE EXPERIENCE in this area than ANYONE on this board-what has happened in states like Ohio

I think your concept of facts is not realistic


----------



## doctariAFC

PMantle said:


> Wow. Jim really was right. You really don't get it. You sound like a broken record with this facts deal. You claim to be the man with his thumb on them, yet we have nothing to work with. Using facts alone in a debate like this is idiotic. It gets us no where. We are talking leglistation here. Facts without feelings of those affected are worthless. Agencies usually have comment periods before instituting change. Why? They want to know how the affected FEEL about it. As I am sure I will be banned from this discussion, buh-bye. You're all gonna spin your wheels here unless discussions like what Jim and I have been having can continue. It's a La. issue anyway, so as Mung said, this is a massive waste of time until something is actually introduced.
> 
> Jim and Cynic, see you another forum where freedom of expression is better tolerated, although it can't be the crossbow forum as that moderator is actually worse than this one. Feel free t PM me with any questions or topics for discussion.


Look. I will use the recent posts that have been made by yourself and now thesource. 

You have gone on record in response to progers that no evidence exists that the crossbow will add hunters to archery. We already have reached the agreement that archery hunters are declining in LA. Right? We have some fact to back up the latter, but the former statement, presented by YOU, has nothing presented as a back up to that statement.

Now comes thesource. Trotting out his fear that a mass influx of gun hunters and newbies will flood the woods, causing grief and screwing up the hunt for everyone, and he is throwing Ohio Stats to back up his claims. Now, I will pat thesource on the back, because at least HE brought some documentation to the table. The facts that he presented at least can be verified. Whether or not the data he chose is a solid piece of fact to back up his claims that the woods will be flooded is another matter, but at least he brought something beyond his opinion and emotion. Source, ol doctariAFC awards you an A+ for at least working within the rules of this debate.

Pmantle and source, however, have just contradicted the argument. One against crossbows says will do nothing. The other says it will flood the woods. WHich is it?

If this example doesn't underscore the importance of FACTS to your argument, I really do not know what does.


----------



## doctariAFC

Jim C said:


> I think you are limiting the discussion artificially. I think your limitations are not allowing the debate to encompass what takes place in the real world. I think what I have said is what most of the people here feel. I have not violated any of the RULES On this board and I have stated-BASED ON HAVING FAR MORE EXPERIENCE in this area than ANYONE on this board-what has happened in states like Ohio
> 
> I think your concept of facts is not realistic


Ok. I'll accept your opinion here, JimC. However, see my last post for an illustration of going with the facts.

Regarding experience. Believe me, I am not questioning nor belittling the experience you bring to the table. You have knowledge and insight regarding the crossbow that very few here can match. I am belittling no one's experience here, in fact, and each hunter brings tremendous value and knowledge to the table. Both sides are included in that statement. Despite this, I do consider experience an invalid means to deliver facts, because it inevitably invites the pissing contest between whose experience is right and whose is wrong.

Experience used in conjunction with fact, like here is the implement performance comparison table from IBO. I find this interesting the similarities between teh crossbow and compound bow. You know, I have shot both at targets and I have experienced that each has a similar trajectory path at 30 yards. In this scenario, your experience can be used to validate a fact. 

Without this fact, you will say, hey I've shot both and they shoot the same. Then the other side says, you're a liar I have shot both and they are not the same. (context is trajectory)

You tell me which style of argument presentation wins a debate, and which one loses a debate? WHich on brings your side more credibility, and which one makes you look like a meatball?


----------



## progers

cynic said:


> Doctari or PR can you look at the figures that you have and see how far off the estimates are from the figures
> 70% 250,000 = 175,000 archers that gun hunt
> 250,000 - 175,000 = 75,000 archery equipment users. As the projected numbers are higher than the statistical number how far out of line is the percentage




I haven't got to Ohio. I am still working on states that are set up similar to LA as far as deer herd estimates, hunter numbers and habitat.

The numbers they give were a "estimated" forecast from before the end of the season of this year, compared to before the end of season last year. For one, temperature can play a BIG factor in how the remaining of that year will play out. 

Jim needs to contact the Ohio Game Commission and get the actual data from the 2000-2001 season to the 2004-2005 season. Then, he needs to run all those numbers and show what the difference in out of state hunters and resident hunters to reflect on actual rise in numbers. If I am not mistaken, Ohio should be getting a lot of out of state hunters. Now, with that being said, chances are these out of state hunters only hunted for one weekend and never came back the rest of the year. 

With that being said, just because the "hunter number" was high doesn't mean that there was that many people hunting there all season. 

Otherwords, somebody needs to do more than just copy an ad from a magazine. We need to step back a few years and show pattern trends.


----------



## doctariAFC

progers said:


> I haven't got to Ohio. I am still working on states that are set up similar to LA as far as deer herd estimates, hunter numbers and habitat.
> 
> The numbers they give were a "estimated" forecast from before the end of the season of this year, compared to before the end of season last year. For one, temperature can play a BIG factor in how the remaining of that year will play out.
> 
> Jim needs to contact the Ohio Game Commission and get the actual data from the 2000-2001 season to the 2004-2005 season. Then, he needs to run all those numbers and show what the difference in out of state hunters and resident hunters to reflect on actual rise in numbers. If I am not mistaken, Ohio should be getting a lot of out of state hunters. Now, with that being said, chances are these out of state hunters only hunted for one weekend and never came back the rest of the year.
> 
> With that being said, just because the "hunter number" was high doesn't mean that there was that many people hunting there all season.
> 
> Otherwords, somebody needs to do more than just copy an ad from a magazine. We need to step back a few years and show pattern trends.


And the FACTS will set you free!!!! YES!


----------



## doctariAFC

My bad on my math.

I apologize for the erroneous 70% of archers also hunt with a firearm.
The Nationa Average is actually @ 65%.

The 20% number is also incorrect, regarding archers to firearms hunters. The actual is closer to 15%. 

Got more updated information. Used an older report to base my first stats on. Kind of strange. I never looked at that piece before, in that particular context. Fewer crossover. what up wif dat?


----------



## progers

progers said:


>






Ok, last season, I believe it was, Kentucky added the xbow to the MXL and firearms season. Apparently it went off without a hitch as over the late Spring and early Summer, they did a survey for research on the extension of the crossbow into archery season.

There was like a 48 page book on every single piece of data you could imagine dealing with this survey. After the survey and before this past season started, crossbows made their debute into archery season.


In Kentucky, as I am sure we will find very simialar to Louisiana, the majority of hunters and landowners hunted on private/mostly private land. As I said before, that right there give the anti-xbow people a leg up on creating bi-laws to keep the "dreaded" xbow out of "their woods".

Next, after the first season of seeing the actual effects of the xbow, the majority of hunters and landowners were for the extension of xbows in deer season and turkey season. Surprisingly, a vast majority of "bowhunters" were for the extension of the xbow, 63% to be exact.

Now, out of all the hunters that were surveyed, only 0.5% of that number used ONLY the xbow to hunt with. Not a big number. There was like an 11.5% average that actually tried the xbow the first year. That number will decrease as the "new" wears off. 

Another thing, in the hunter comparison chart, there were 93.7% that hunted deer with a firearm and 61.5% that bowhunted so, that means that 32.2% of the hunters that were surveyed choose to hunt on thru firearm season with the bow.

As far as the "reasons" that were given and the %'s of the reasons, I think that we have pretty much came up with close to the same as this survey:

Xbows are not bows and we don't want them guys in "our" woods hunting "our" deer. 

I think that Kentucky did a fine job on their research. I think that Louisiana is gonna be a mirror image of Kentucky. That would really be more of an "educated" guess.


----------



## Marvin

PMantle said:


> Wow. Jim really was right. You really don't get it. You sound like a broken record with this facts deal. You claim to be the man with his thumb on them, yet we have nothing to work with. Using facts alone in a debate like this is idiotic. It gets us no where. We are talking leglistation here. Facts without feelings of those affected are worthless. Agencies usually have comment periods before instituting change. Why? They want to know how the affected FEEL about it. As I am sure I will be banned from this discussion, buh-bye. You're all gonna spin your wheels here unless discussions like what Jim and I have been having can continue. It's a La. issue anyway, so as Mung said, this is a massive waste of time until something is actually introduced.
> 
> Jim and Cynic, see you another forum where freedom of expression is better tolerated, although it can't be the crossbow forum as that moderator is actually worse than this one. Feel free t PM me with any questions or topics for discussion.


 Doc's been a even keel as anyone I have seen trying to keep an issue like this in control. He's only one man. Don;t go to the crossbow forum...they axe you if you even have the smell of a recurve on your hands ( :tongue: ) they can smell a bigot a mile away...and me without my scentlok... ( all jokes doc....all jokes)


----------



## progers

doctariAFC said:


> My bad on my math.
> 
> I apologize for the erroneous 70% of archers also hunt with a firearm.
> The Nationa Average is actually @ 65%.
> 
> The 20% number is also incorrect, regarding archers to firearms hunters. The actual is closer to 15%.
> 
> Got more updated information. Used an older report to base my first stats on. Kind of strange. I never looked at that piece before, in that particular context. Fewer crossover. what up wif dat?




I have a question on this Doc!?!

If the national average of archers that also hunt with firearms is 65%, wouldn't that mean that the other 45% were actual "bowmen" as the origional 65% would just be weekend warriors? Isn't there a good chance that this 65% do not practice as much as needed as the 45% do as they are "bowmen"


With all that being said, the 15% of the gun hunters that hunt with a bow should equal the 65% of the bowhunters that hunt with a gun, as they are the same. Wouldn't that be correct?


----------



## doctariAFC

Another interesting fact, from USF&W hunter attitude survey, Nationally. Specifically, hunters who did not hunt as much as they would liked to, and why. This was collected from @ 63% of the total hunters. Most hunters in USA are big game hunters, but this was all hunters. 

#1 reason was Family or Work Obligation (nice to see)
#2 reason was not enough time (sucks to see)

These were the top two reasons BY FAR. 

Up next was 
#3 Personal health or disablility
#4 Not enough money/ cost too much
#5 School

The biggie that I thought I would see was access... Now, this is Nationally, but, this one was behind such reasons as no one to hunt with and length of hunting season too restrictive. I didn't see the state specific report reflecting any hunter sentiment surveys.

The too crowded in the woods was the second LAST reason given, topping only the reason of Bag Limits Being too restrictive! Heck, that one (woods too crowded) was even less important than those not knowing where to hunt and hunters didn't draw the special lottery.


----------



## doctariAFC

progers said:


> I have a question on this Doc!?!
> 
> If the national average of archers that also hunt with firearms is 65%, wouldn't that mean that the other 45% were actual "bowmen" as the origional 65% would just be weekend warriors? Isn't there a good chance that this 65% do not practice as much as needed as the 45% do as they are "bowmen"
> 
> 
> With all that being said, the 15% of the gun hunters that hunt with a bow should equal the 65% of the bowhunters that hunt with a gun, as they are the same. Wouldn't that be correct?


No. The numbers that I have do not get into the detail of small game and big game, just archery and firearms. This is probably because Big Game encompasses more than just the Whitetail Deer. Elk, Bison, Bear, Moose, Caribou, Bighorn Sheep, etc. Also factor into big game. Now we gotta drill down to the species level? How about the turkey hunters and coyote hunters and fox hunters, etc, pheasant, goose....

So this is a total of hunters. I cannot even fathom a guess what the numbers would be for deer. Lots of big game.

And that's 35%, right? They may not all be bow,en. They could be like some of my friends. Hit the state park for a week and olny use bow on deer because shotgun hunting scares the bejesus out of them. They are by no means "bowmen". But they are bow hunters.


----------



## progers

*I ain't got no place to bow hunt....*

It was said here by a bowhunter in Louisiana that "I can't find no place to hunt." Well, I got some numbers to show that will shed some light on this issue with not having no place to hunt.



In LA, there is 50 WMA's totaling 1,270,521 acres. This is not counting the NWR land that is open to the public for hunting.

Now, we have 27,209 archery license being sold. Just for kicks, lets just say that none of the bowhunters are on a lease or club. I would estimate that around 60% of the bowhunters will be hunting leased but, we will let that slide as of now since I don't have the exact number.

Being a VERY, and I mean VERY conserative number with nobody hunting any leases, that would put you having almost 47.7 acres to hunt for yourself.

Now, on our old lease, we had 10 members, 1000 acres. At $3.50 an acre we paid $350 per year each. We had 100 acres each to hunt.

Now, you can just about bet the farm that at least 50% of the bowhunters will be on a lease. If you take that 50% off the public land, guess what? You got almost 100 acres to hunt to yourself during archery season.

Now, gun numbers will be higher so, before you throw that back at me, search all the "public land records" to get a grand total before you add the gun hunters.


----------



## progers

Here is an artilce from Outdoor Life Magazine:
-------------------------------------------
LOUISIANA
The Pelican State touts itself as “the sportsman’s paradise,” and deer hunters certainly have reason to agree. Each year, 200,000 firearms hunters harvest nearly 250,000 whitetails from a herd of 1 million deer. 

Abundant mast crops the last few years have made for large, healthy whitetails throughout much of the state. Statewide, cool weather is the biggest regulator of deer-hunting success in Louisiana. If temperatures drop and autumn rains fall, deer generally stay on the move more during shooting hours. Top public hunting areas administered by the federal government include the Tensas River NWR and Lake Ophelia NWR. Other good options include Jackson Bienville, Red River, Three Rivers, Sherburne and Union WMAs. Also, consider these facts: Two years ago a 1984/8 non-typical was harvested on Camp Beauregard WMA, and a typical buck scoring 1401/8 was taken by a bowhunter on Fort Polk WMA.
---------------------------------------------



It would almost sound like we have pretty good quality deer here in Louisiana.

the state records came off WMA land in LA. Hmmm, I didn't know that. That is interesting.


----------



## progers

*LA deer harvest summary for late 90's....*

LA deer harvest summary for late 90's....















Harvest reports ALL STATES for the late 90's...

http://www.american-hunter.com/harvest.htm


----------



## thesource

Yeehaw .... Let's rock, doc!

*1.*


doctariAFC said:


> Source. First off. Let me get you up to speed. This debate is about Louisiana, not Ohio. .


*NOT SO FAST. I am simply challenging your "facts".... you introduced OH when you said:*



doctariAFC said:


> Roughly 20% of Firearms Hunters also archery hunt (all bow types, even in OH).




*2.*


doctariAFC said:


> Next, the information presented was a National Average figure, not specific to any particular State.


*Ummm .....YOU are the one who made it specific to a state, OH to be exact...*


doctariAFC said:


> Roughly 20% of Firearms Hunters also archery hunt (all bow types, even in OH).




*3.*


doctariAFC said:


> Third, I do believe the participation figures clearly illustrate that 70% of archery hunters continue to hunt right through the regular season.


*What? How can this be a "fact" when you stated earlier that:*



doctariAFC said:


> roughly 70% of bowhunters also using firearms.


*If 70% switch to a gun, then 70% can't continue to use a bow, and vice versa. Who's zoomin who?*




doctariAFC said:


> Get the FACTS together. Delve deeper into the info to find the answers.


*
Eeks - here's a towel, Doc, to wipe that egg off your face. You cannot demand facts and then use fiction to support your beliefs. 

You cannot get caught with your hand in the cookie jar and then chastise me for catching you.

MY facts where presented to show that your information was flawed, and actually not fact.

I suggest that YOU delve deeper into the info to find the correct answers.*


----------



## doctariAFC

thesource said:


> Yeehaw .... Let's rock, doc!
> 
> *1.*
> 
> *NOT SO FAST. I am simply challenging your "facts".... you introduced OH when you said:*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *2.*
> 
> 
> *Ummm .....YOU are the one who made it specific to a state, OH to be exact...*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *3.*
> 
> 
> *What? How can this be a "fact" when you stated earlier that:*
> 
> 
> 
> *If 70% switch to a gun, then 70% can't continue to use a bow, and vice versa. Who's zoomin who?*
> 
> 
> 
> *
> Eeks - here's a towel, Doc, to wipe that egg off your face. You cannot demand facts and then use fiction to support your beliefs.
> 
> You cannot get caught with your hand in the cookie jar and then chastise me for catching you.
> 
> MY facts where presented to show that your information was flawed, and actually not fact.
> 
> I suggest that YOU delve deeper into the info to find the correct answers.*


I did, and adjusted my numbers accordingly. But, thanks for your diligence, here source.

Hey, you know, you are thus far one of perhaps 2 or three folks against the crossbow that is actually using some facts in this debate?

Although we may disagree, I will commend you yet again for doing so. And I also thank you...


----------



## doctariAFC

DougK said:


> Doc,
> 
> None of Source's overcrowding theories ever come true. He points to OH-with a thriving deer herd-and neglects to mention ONT, BC, QC, WY, AR, and GA.
> 
> Source is over 1300 posts argueing against one thing-how people might participate in a recreational sport.
> 
> We caught him boldfaced lying at least once on the xbow forum.
> 
> He may "spin facts" but he has no credit.


I understand your position, however, we are working through a process here, DougK. This process is for a civil debate, to first get the facts on the table and compiled, then we can debate the merits of the facts and eachother's interpretation of the facts. Through these facts, myths will either be dispelled or validated to a degree, but, the larger picture is that we get the facts on the table and focus the debate to the meat, rather than beating the dead horse of changing individual opinions.

This debate has been conducted over and over again in the same fashion. Emotional, and very confrontational agruments over personal experience and feelings, without a complete analysis of the facts.

After the facts are out there, and whatever they support (in this instance Louisiana) we have reality established, devoid of the personal opinions and specific organizations stated positions on the issue. Like I told JimC, I have no interest in changing an individual's opinion or an organization's stance. Those issues are moot and wind up in the confrontational basket 100% of the time. However, what is important is the factual information that is out there, and the facts speak to legislators, governors and sporstmen as a whole.

In the process, we may even be able to, for at least a brief shining moment, set aside the personal malarky, discover the facts, become better informed and even uncover other issues which need to be addressed as well. Through this effort, we do get some unity, even if personal opinions may conflict. 

Again, this isn't personal, this is for all sportsmen and women.


----------



## progers

I'm just curious but, from what I have seen so far, every state that has it legal for the seniors and handicap to hunt with crossbow during deer season, nobody else, including the seniors and elderly, can hunt any other type of game in any other season? 

Why is that?

Are there any states that yall know of that has it where everybody can hunt with one EXCEPT for whitetails? or whitetails during archery?

i think Hawaii on private land may be one???


----------



## cynic

While being established that Pmantle is an attny and the burden of proof is on the Xbow hunters since we are the ones fighting and they already have the right to choose a cbow over Long or recurve. I think that a little leway should be given. Pmantle's arguements have only made the pro xbow search harder, look deeper for facts and figures that might not have surfaced otherwise. The opposition has caused the gathering of enormous amount of data (statistics-FACTS, surveys-FACTS, letters-testimonial) all to begin the real battle with. They are right, in this forum no decision will be made. We will only scrobble amongst ourselves. This forum only has a few actives. The state of La has thousands of potentials. You can figure that if there are for instance 50,000 archers the most that this would affect negatively would be 50,000. The other side is that it will have a positive effect on "how many", that could be as many as the total # gun/ML hunters that don't use archery + any newcomers. So do you do whats good for 50,000 or what's good for the hunting community as a whole? Majority rules if this is a democracy. 
So with that I think/feel constructive objections should be allowed and as the objections are met with facts to prove/disprove should not be reintroduced for the sake of arguing. Objection- OVER-RULED. Without the opposition being allowed to state concerns we will not be able to overcome the objection nor will we look for the information.


----------



## Free Range

Progers, where are you getting the numbers about the Kentucky survey, I have the summery here in front of me and no where does it say that 63% of bowhunters were in favor of full expansion. And I don’t see it in that piece you posted either.


----------



## doctariAFC

Free Range said:


> Progers, where are you getting the numbers about the Kentucky survey, I have the summery here in front of me and no where does it say that 63% of bowhunters were in favor of full expansion. And I don’t see it in that piece you posted either.


Its noted right below the survey results in italics. The info states 63% of bowhunters favored the expansion vs 46% of non-bowhunters.

To cynic. I agree with you to open this up, but let's first get the facts presented and then open it up.

The problem with the crossbow debate has always been an immediate jump to debate speculation and opinion/ feeling.

The circular arguments of is it a bow, or not a bow, are opinions. 
The lazy hunter vs how is choice lazy? is another opinion
The woods will be flooded by "joeys" is an opinion
The deer will be decimated has already been debunked - so that one isn't even valid to bring up
Unfair advantage with crossbow is another opinion

I do not know of any debate that can be conducted based on opinions alone. Just doesn't ahppen. Nor can one have a debate based on personal experience alone. Without a foundation to begin with, you never have a debate, rather, all we get is the perpetuation of arguing for the sake of arguing, and this accomplishes nothing, other than to further drive the wedge between hunters.

So, I think the next step in this painful process is to start organizing the facts into a logical statement with a logical progression. As some folks will attest, I have sent both sides the USF&W reports for their own independent review. Both sides have the opportunity to examine the facts, and present their case based on the facts. Of course, either side may use opinion and experience to bolster their facts, but opinion and experience alone does not make any case. It only serves to flame.

Now, if we all just enjoy arguing, I would say save that for the campfire. However, as was clearly defined at the start of this thread, we will show more class than the US Congress, and conduct a real debate, or as real as it can be over the forum utility. After all, I cannot time each person's response to make things fair, like a face to face moderation would allow. But I sure as heck can control the flow of information by demanding that we root this in fact.

I think this also allows the principals in Louisiana to refine their own positions. So the benefit to all is, IMO, self evident.


----------



## PMantle

doctariAFC said:


> Look. I will use the recent posts that have been made by yourself and now thesource.
> 
> You have gone on record in response to progers that no evidence exists that the crossbow will add hunters to archery. We already have reached the agreement that archery hunters are declining in LA. Right? We have some fact to back up the latter, but the former statement, presented by YOU, has nothing presented as a back up to that statement.
> 
> .


I neither said nor believe what you are attributing to me. I am in the camp that crossbow use will add hunters to archery in the form of gun hunters who currently choose to to shoot a bow. If anything I said earlier was to the contrary, I either mistyped, or the quote function made it appear that I said it. Are archers declining in La? I doubt it. The reason I doubt it is the problem I've posted in the past with the numbers. I do not think the State has any way of accurately counting. That is shown by the discrepancy between archery licenses and hunters using archery equipment. Lifetimers like me also throw it into disarray because they don't know what I actually do with my privileges. 

The issue here is basically as simple as Jim posted. I know I said I was gone, but Since I wasn't banned....yet....:shade: I felt I needed to set some things straight.


----------



## doctariAFC

PMantle said:


> I neither said nor believe what you are attributing to me. I am in the camp that crossbow use will add hunters to archery in the form of gun hunters who currently choose to to shoot a bow. If anything I said earlier was to the contrary, I either mistyped, or the quote function made it appear that I said it. Are archers declining in La? I doubt it. The reason I doubt it is the problem I've posted in the past with the numbers. I do not think the State has any way of accurately counting. That is shown by the discrepancy between archery licenses and hunters using archery equipment. Lifetimers like me also throw it into disarray because they don't know what I actually do with my privileges.
> 
> The issue here is basically as simple as Jim posted. I know I said I was gone, but Since I wasn't banned....yet....:shade: I felt I needed to set some things straight.


Ok, fair enough, then what you said was misunderstood. 
How do we know that this belief has merit? That more gun hunters will take up hunting during the archery season? Further, would it be a terrible thing is some additional gun hunters got into the woods during archery season? Is it that gun hunters will hunt archery or is it the unknown of how many?

Without some evidence to suggest that this indeed will happen, how does one defend this statement without a he said she said, I believe, no I believe kind of unproductive back and forth?

Now, you may be able to point to the same facts from KY and GA and perhaps make your case. But, are the numbers truly supportive of a "mass intusion?" IMO, this is what needs to be identified.

Its easy to make a claim. Just back it up. That's one of the goals of this whole debate. BACK IT UP. As JimC has so poigniantly stated, he has been at this for 30 years. He also has stated that no progress has been made in changing minds. No kidding. Without some facts, you cannot back up the claims, then the "you're a liar" baloney starts. Hey, without facts backing it up, how can you even call someone else a liar? 

You see?


----------



## progers

Free Range said:


> Progers, where are you getting the numbers about the Kentucky survey, I have the summery here in front of me and no where does it say that 63% of bowhunters were in favor of full expansion. And I don’t see it in that piece you posted either.




page 36, 2nd paragraph:

"Bow hunters were also more supportive of expanding both deer and turkey season, either for other types of weapons (63% vs. 46% non bowhunters)."


I hope that helps.


----------



## progers

PMantle said:


> Are archers declining in La? I doubt it. The reason I doubt it is the problem I've posted in the past with the numbers. I do not think the State has any way of accurately counting. That is shown by the discrepancy between archery licenses and hunters using archery equipment.




Let me show you about the discrepancy between archery license and hunters using archery equipment works.

1. Residents who reached age 60 prior to June 1, 2000 are not required to obtain a basic recreational fishing license, saltwater license, basic hunting license, big game license or migratory waterfowl conservation stamp, but must have proof of age in their possession whenever fishing or hunting.


Ok, seniors DON'T have to purchase a license.

Now, the archery license sales dropped by 4128 individuals from 2000 to 2005. Now, some of these numbers will be people who become a senior citizen between 2000 - 2005 so, they are not required to purchase a license. However, they are not being replaced by younger hunters, hence the drop in archers.

Next, look close at the numbers that are rising in the Senior Lic. section. As seniors don't have to actually purchase a license, they are still listed so that they can be counted. Now, the senior numbers are climbing as of now. For example, in 04' - 05' season, we seen an increase of 12,344 seniors. Now, look at the "archery equipped" hunters for 04' - 05' and you will see an increase of 10,000 hunters. That tells us that 10,000 of 12,344 seniors used "archery equippment" of some sort. Now, alot of people don't think that a crossbow is "archery" equipment but, the State does.

If you look at the "archery equipped" numbers, it was only up 1000 hunters in 03' - 04'. That year, senior hunters were up by 8283. So, either these seniors got pumped and started buying compounds to hunt with later in life OR they started hunting with xbows more. That part is still not determined but, it is determined that the number of archers in LA are decreasing UNLESS yall want to start counting xbows in your numbers.

I would tend to think that the seniors are probably going more to the xbow. That is just an "opinion" as of now but, we are working on that, also. Now, if the senior are starting to use the xbow and the number of seniors has increased greatly from year to year, that would explain why the "archery equipped" deer kill numbers are starting to move in the right direction even though they are still behind in numbers in an overall summary.

In 01' - 02', there was around 5393 seniors added to the list. Archery equiped hunters was down from 00' - 01' season by 3900 as so was the "archery equiped" deer kills was the exact same, 3900. 

So, as archery license sales decrease, so do the archers. As seniors increase and "archery equiped" hunters increase to match means the seniors are picking up a bow of some sort. As "archery equiped" deer kills rise as the archery sales decrease means either the fewer bowhunter are really having great seasons OR the seniors are helping keep the deer kill numbers in the "archery" section going in the right direction.

These numbers are facts. Now, we need to find out if the seniors are buying compounds or xbows to hunt with.

My "educated" guess would be that the seniors are buying xbows to hunt during archery season and they are doing fairly well with harvesting whitetails. 

With all that being said, YES, archers are decreasing in the state of Louisiana.


----------



## progers

PMantle said:


> I am in the camp that crossbow use will add hunters to archery in the form of gun hunters who currently choose to to shoot a bow.


Wait, don't you mean "gun hunters who currently choose to NOT shoot a bow"?
My replay is the assumption that was what you meant because if the gun hunters that choose to shoot a compound would then choose to shoot an xbow, that hurts nobody but sales on compounds. 

So, with that being said: 

YES, you are correct! That is, if the state decides to put xbows in archery season. 

Ok, say they do. You are right. There will be a small percentage of gun hunters that will now buy an archery license and the xbow equipment that it takes to hunt with an xbow in early archer season. So, now we have an increase in archery sales which, by the way is dropping in the state of LA.

Next, you will say that the gun hunters are gonna be pouring in "your woods" and messing up "your hunting". I understand your frustration on that BUT what you are failing to comprehend is the fact that the hunters who hunt whitetails with firearms are ALREADY in "your woods" during early archery season. They are using shotguns hunting small game. They are already there so, saying that people will be "pouring out of the woodwork" to invade "your woods" has no meaning what so ever as the hunters are already in the woods hunting a different type of game: squirrels, rabbits, dove and quail. These hunters are already hunting during early archery season. They are already in "your woods". 

I guess it all boils down to the fact that you don't want them hunting "your deer"?

So, allowing xbows during archery season will mainly increase archery license sales. It will get existing hunters, who are already in the woods another means of hunting is all. Also, it will bring in more women and children to the world of archery.

As I said before, it is a WIN WIN situation. 

So, do the archers dislike the "small game hunters" being in their woods during archery season? Just curious???


----------



## cynic

News Release 
FWC EXTENDS HUNTING DAYS WITH ADOPTION OF CROSSBOW SEASON

February 1, 2006
Contact: Tony Young (850) 488-7867


A crossbow hunting season for private lands is in the works for 2006-07. The Florida Fish and Wildlife Conservation Commission (FWC) adopted new rules to establish the new hunting season during its meeting Wednesday in Gainesville. 

The new season will provide additional hunting opportunities for crossbow hunters. It will also lengthen the overall hunting season and extend the number of days conventional bowhunters can use bows to take game, since bows will be legal during crossbow season.

The added season is limited to private lands and restricts harvest to bucks only. These changes will not affect the wildlife management area system.

Rule changes also provide that bows and crossbows will be legal during muzzleloading gun season and during the Northwest Hunting Zone’s special archery/muzzleloading season, beginning next year.

“We wanted to create more opportunities for hunters who use crossbows but strived to balance that with the interests of avid bowhunters,” said Nick Wiley, director of FWC’s Division of Hunting and Game Management. “The change gives private landowners more options for managing game on their property and provides additional early-season hunting opportunities.”

Beginning in October, there will be a five-day crossbow season between the existing archery season and muzzleloading gun season in the Central and South hunting zones. In the Northwest Zone, the crossbow season will be seven days long and will open the Monday following Thanksgiving.

During the new crossbow season, legal game will include deer, hog, bearded turkey, gray squirrel, quail, rabbit, raccoon, opossum, coyote, nutria, skunk and beaver. However, turkeys will not be legal game in Holmes County during any fall or winter hunting season.

As during the muzzleloading gun season, only bucks with at least one antler five inches or more in length may be taken during the crossbow season. The daily bag limit for antlered deer is two during the crossbow and muzzleloading gun seasons. 

During both periods, antlerless deer may be taken only by hunters who hold antlerless deer permits. Regardless of the season or number of permits, the bag limit will be two deer per day.

For more information about the new crossbow season, interested hunters can call Tony Young at (850) 488-7867 or visit MyFWC.com/commission. 


This is just another statistic to add to the folder. The hunters wanted and the Commission found a way to make it possible. This is the first step towards compromise.


----------



## cynic

This new rulling a Win Win for the hunters. We get to use xbows and the vert hunters get to join in on OUR season. Giving them an additional week to hunt in the NW region when all other season where TRADITIONALLY closed. Along with the late season we will all hunt together. cbows/ML/xbows. Louisiana has the same capability. Yes this is only on private land but it is a start and after the statistics are compiled I am sure the issue will be revisited..


----------



## Fireemt124

wow a win for all hunters, who'd a thunk it.


----------



## C Farmer

*Wow!!!!*

Some of these "FACTS" about Louisiana are being streched or misinterped. Us old codgers do have to buy the basic hunting and fishing but not the big game archery ,mz licenses. Several years ago(before 2000 ,I believe) even the basic licenes were not required. Sometime around 2000 the LWF relized they were loosing about $7.00 per person and the rule was changed so that the basic licenes were required. So about the 2000 season you notice a jump in license ror seniors.
Now if I may say something that I can't back up with published facts . The decline in archery hunters here in La. can be correlated to the increase in either sex days,I believe. Several years ago many areas of our state had very limited either sex days now nearly every area has numerous days.
Thanks for allowing an old man to say a few words on this subject.
Jerry


----------



## progers

C Farmer said:


> Some of these "FACTS" about Louisiana are being streched or misinterped. Us old codgers do have to buy the basic hunting and fishing but not the big game archery ,mz licenses. Several years ago(before 2000 ,I believe) even the basic licenes were not required. Sometime around 2000 the LWF relized they were loosing about $7.00 per person and the rule was changed so that the basic licenes were required. So about the 2000 season you notice a jump in license ror seniors.
> Now if I may say something that I can't back up with published facts . The decline in archery hunters here in La. can be correlated to the increase in either sex days,I believe. Several years ago many areas of our state had very limited either sex days now nearly every area has numerous days.
> Thanks for allowing an old man to say a few words on this subject.
> Jerry



Welcome Mr. Jerry. We welcome ALL Louisiana'ians to participate in this "conversation" about the future of our State.

I would assume you were referring to one of my posts as I was the one who posted about the seniors not needing to buy a license. You should know best from experience. 

The "jump" in seniors is listed simply as "Seniors License" so, what exactly would that be referring to? The basic license? 

So, are the seniors using xbows more to your knowledge? There is a dramatic increase in "archery equiped" hunters that seems to be reflected towards the numbers of "seniors license". Up 10,000 just in the past year, as the archery license dropped. 

Anywho, if I am wrong about what I posted about what license the seniors have to purchase, I apologize. I copied it straight from the LDWF. I went back and looked and the date was 11/25/2001 3:00 PM so, it could have been revised; and it stated:



> EXCEPTIONS AND EXEMPTIONS
> A. The following recreational fishermen and hunters are not required to obtain a basic recreational fishing license, saltwater license, basic hunting license, big game license or migratory waterfowl conservation stamp, but must have proof of age in their possession whenever fishing or hunting:
> 
> 1. Residents who reached age 60 prior to June 1, 2000.
> 
> 2. Residents and non-residents younger than 16 years of age
> 
> B.The following recreational fishermen and hunters, upon identification and proof of eligibility satisfactory to the Department, shall be issued a basic recreational fishing license, saltwater license, basic hunting license and big game license without payment of any fees:
> 
> 1. A resident who is a VETERAN of the armed forces or Louisiana National Guard, having a permanent SERVICE CONNECTED disability classification of fifty percent (50%) or more. Must submit form signed by parish service officer.
> 
> 2. A resident who is blind, paraplegic or is a multiple amputee shall upon identification and proof of disability satisfactory to the Department be issued licenses without the payment of any fees therefor. Must submit doctors statement.


http://www.wlf.state.la.us/apps/netgear/index.asp?cn=lawlf&pid=1052


----------



## doctariAFC

C Farmer said:


> Some of these "FACTS" about Louisiana are being streched or misinterped. Us old codgers do have to buy the basic hunting and fishing but not the big game archery ,mz licenses. Several years ago(before 2000 ,I believe) even the basic licenes were not required. Sometime around 2000 the LWF relized they were loosing about $7.00 per person and the rule was changed so that the basic licenes were required. So about the 2000 season you notice a jump in license ror seniors.
> Now if I may say something that I can't back up with published facts . The decline in archery hunters here in La. can be correlated to the increase in either sex days,I believe. Several years ago many areas of our state had very limited either sex days now nearly every area has numerous days.
> Thanks for allowing an old man to say a few words on this subject.
> Jerry


That's an interesting take.... I never really thought about that angle, regarding does. NYS went with a new tagging structure in 2002, and our numbers for archers has declined tremendously. According to Our Commissioner, Denise Sheehan, and John Major, DEC Sr. Wildlife Biologist, I believe, NY's license sales (big game, all types) were off about 5% from last year, which witnessed declines as well (continuing trend.) 2004 Big Game Licenses sold, total res and non, was @ 624,000. 5% of this number is roughly 31,000, which lowers the hunting licenses to @ 593,000 total.

We began a much more liberal doe tag system in 2002, and I do know that archery license and super sportsmen license (combo lic incl. archery) sales slumped from 2002 to 2004 significantly. Don't have exact number at my fingertips. Perhaps some of these archers were actually gun hunters in disguise, only hunting with a bow to have a better chance at harvesting a deer, because you can harvest either sex? Then, when each hunter was getting two doe tags for shotgun, heck, why bow hunt? Hmmmmm.....


----------



## cynic

The only way to get actual numbers that can not be refuted by either side is to collect data from each license holder for the past 5 seasons (as that is the basic time line being used) this must include out-of-state hunters also. Once ALL of the information from ALL the hunters is back the actual #'s will be perfect (in a perfect world) This will answer the question of why the decline in archery, Hunter impact and who would or would not be in the woods with a xbow. Now keep in mind that if "any" of those hunters do not repond because of death or lack of interest the numbers once again would be inaccurate and we will only be able to rely on statistics and percentages. Inorder to achieve this no 2 or more hunters can be present at the same time as one might sway the input of the other (peer pressure) each would have to answer honestly (not because of club or organization affiliation). So who is up to collecting the actual data? Doctari and Proger have provided the data as of national standings and state specific. The anti's have brought to the attention that certain numbers and percentages have been SLIGHTY off and as they have been discussed and changed still seems to show that the xbow and hunter impact is not detrimental.I am interest now in the charts graphs and comparisons that shows the trend that there is going to be a major influx in the woods with xbows and that there is not enough land to hunt on public or private. I thought that we are grown-ups and should be able to work through our differences. Just as Florida has recently annouced the upcoming xbow season and has allowed the use of equipment allowed in archery season. Compromise, It has been stated that "archery season is plenty long and it wouldn't bother me if it got shortened" I believe it was some 42days of archery in that region. There you go shorten the archery and make an xbow that will allow for verticles "no days" lost to the old style archery hunter. You do not have to be totally against or totally for in order to compromise. It is better to compromise and all parties satisfied than be forced to accept defeat..The xbow is coming one way or another at some point. I suggest that both sides sit down and negotiate a plan that is adequate and beneficial and present it as a collective body of SPORTSMEN. Open your eyes it is happening everywhere, State by State. Do not be niave to think it won't happen there. We have added an additional state just since this debate


----------



## C Farmer

There is another fact that needs to be considered in looking at these trends...... and that is the population of La. is ageing at a faster rate than the average of the nation thus explaning some of these trends .
Jerry


----------



## doctariAFC

The problem is that we have more than enough information/ facts to accurately measure and answer just about every question posed. Its the emotional reflex of a position being unsupported by these facts that makes folks use every attempt to discredit the information.

I am with many of you regarding some of the information being, for lack of a better word, suspect. Such information I refer to would be harvest data and deer population estimates. However, in terms of license sales, the information is more than accurate enough to base many proper conclusions off of.


A few key conditions have been agreed to in this debate.

1 - ALL hunter participation numbers show that we are experiencing a decline in hunting.
2 - Archery hunting is certainly among the sub-categories of hunting that is declining, and the trends of this decline in LA are very significant, indeed, regardless of whether the population is aging faster than kids are being born (which is moot, as the birth rates in this country are near the highest rates we have seen ever). The issue is the young kids being introduced to the sport of hunting, and in this scenario, archery hunting.
3 - Considering the % of hunters vs total population, we have MORE THAN ENOUGH young kids out there to generate a stronger replacement hunter scenario to off-set the aging folks leaving the sport, if we are working properly to recruit.
4 - I believe I saw a figure that states LA has @ 27,000 archery hunters as of this past season? Progers, what was this number 5 years ago, approximately? 31,300+/-? This is a decline, I believe was stated of 4,128 lost hunters. This is a net loss, as certainly each season we have new licenses being sold, but the net reults of losses v gains is a decline of 4,128 hunters. 
5 - On a % basis, off the benchmark of 31,337, this is a 13.2% decline.

6 - Back in 2000/ 2001, would anyone have stated that having that additional 13.2% of hunters in the woods was causing a problem of overcrowding? I bet you didn't even notice the higher count of archery hunters in the woods in 2000/ 2001. 

So, understanding that we will still have hunter losses each year, due to aging hunters, the additions crossbow will deliver will NOT be simply a gross gain. It will be a net change (either slowing the decline, or providing a net bump.)

What we need to examine is the increases experienced by each state that intorduced the crossbow, and determine the % increase. If this is showing a 10 - 15% increase (highly doubt we would achieve this over one year, maybe 3, but we need the historical anaylsis to state clearly what to expect) and we apply this to LA, we would simply be nearly restoring the old hunter numbers. Is that a problem? Regardless of where they come from, would it be a problem to replace the lost hunters?

Let's get the trends for comparison. I would have a hard time believing any hunter would have a problem replacing hunters. If you doubled the current 27,000+ to 54,000+, maybe I could see your concerns. WHat are the chances of that happening? I believe reality will tell us doubling the archery hunters in LA is not going to happen, but restoring archery hunter numbers to their 2000/ 2001 levels is not unreasonable.

We need to see the results of other states to answer this question.


----------



## doctariAFC

cynic said:


> The only way to get actual numbers that can not be refuted by either side is to collect data from each license holder for the past 5 seasons (as that is the basic time line being used) this must include out-of-state hunters also. Once ALL of the information from ALL the hunters is back the actual #'s will be perfect (in a perfect world) This will answer the question of why the decline in archery, Hunter impact and who would or would not be in the woods with a xbow. Now keep in mind that if "any" of those hunters do not repond because of death or lack of interest the numbers once again would be inaccurate and we will only be able to rely on statistics and percentages. Inorder to achieve this no 2 or more hunters can be present at the same time as one might sway the input of the other (peer pressure) each would have to answer honestly (not because of club or organization affiliation). So who is up to collecting the actual data? Doctari and Proger have provided the data as of national standings and state specific. The anti's have brought to the attention that certain numbers and percentages have been SLIGHTY off and as they have been discussed and changed still seems to show that the xbow and hunter impact is not detrimental.I am interest now in the charts graphs and comparisons that shows the trend that there is going to be a major influx in the woods with xbows and that there is not enough land to hunt on public or private. I thought that we are grown-ups and should be able to work through our differences. Just as Florida has recently annouced the upcoming xbow season and has allowed the use of equipment allowed in archery season. Compromise, It has been stated that "archery season is plenty long and it wouldn't bother me if it got shortened" I believe it was some 42days of archery in that region. There you go shorten the archery and make an xbow that will allow for verticles "no days" lost to the old style archery hunter. You do not have to be totally against or totally for in order to compromise. It is better to compromise and all parties satisfied than be forced to accept defeat..The xbow is coming one way or another at some point. I suggest that both sides sit down and negotiate a plan that is adequate and beneficial and present it as a collective body of SPORTSMEN. Open your eyes it is happening everywhere, State by State. Do not be niave to think it won't happen there. We have added an additional state just since this debate


:amen:

You are right on. This is also another BIG reason to get to the facts. Without the facts, we will be guessing on how to plan and what to expect. If we know how much water is in the pool before we jump in, we will tend to have a better experience on our landing....


----------



## progers

I don't think that I would be up to the challenge in doing that, cynic. You might have to get some of them other guys that don't believe the states numbers are close to do their own survey. As far as I go, I will take the evidence that the States provide. They would have to do all the states that we are comparing LA to, not just LA. :wink: 


I can't say that an increase in doe days during regular gun season onver the last few years has much of an effect on the "fluxuation" or not with bow hunters. You will have to ask them. I know that now, most of the state has 25 doe days this year where we had about 18 doe days 5 years ago, for most of the state. However, all of MZL and early and late season archery is either sex. There has always been plenty of doe days and plenty of deer. I would doubt that the bowhunters would just quit bowhunting because of an added week of doe days over about 4 or 5 years? I dunno? Archer license sold has been an "up and down" trend, not just a steady drop. 


I would tend to think that the economy and weather had more to do with the loss of archers than anything. As it was a younger group over all that is in to bowhunting, they probably have gotten married and had kids and had to work for a living more. I dunno that either, all of this is just speculation. 

Now, the weather has proven to be a factor in people "not seeing the deer" as some have put it. Also, change of habitat causes people to "not see the deer", also. Could this co-incide with clear cuttings by timber companies? I dunno that one either.

But, here is an interesting article put out by the LDWF for 2003-2004:



> 2003-04 Deer Harvest Down
> Louisiana Department of Wildlife and Fisheries
> 
> Posted on: 02/16/04 [Comments?]
> 
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> As always, Mother Nature played an important role in the 2003-04 deer season in Louisiana. With warm temperatures prevailing September through January, hunters harvested less this season than last. An estimated 215,000 deer were harvested in comparison to the 241,100 during the 2002-03 season.
> 
> According to Louisiana Department of Wildlife and Fisheries Deer Study Leader David Moreland, the 2003-04 season proved to be a good one for the quality and trophy deer harvest. A potential new state typical record buck was harvested in East Carrol Parish and several large non-typical bucks were also harvested.
> 
> "It appears the number of recognition deer from 2003-04 season will be high," said Moreland. The annual harvest surveys will be mailed out at the end of February and club and landowners will also begin submitting regional harvest records.
> 
> Other factors that influenced hunter success and overall deer sightings include habitat changes, mast abundance, deer reproduction and hunter disturbance during the season.
> 
> This past fall, mast production was mainly limited to the Red Oak group (water, willow, cherrybark, southern red, nuttall). Acorn production from the White Oak group (white oak, cow oak, overcup oak, post oak) was low overall except for a few localized area. Examination of deer stomachs revealed a high utilization of red oaks acorns around the state. Mild October and November temperatures kept native plant forage green and available for food.
> 
> Usually an important month for hunters in areas 2,3,7 and 8, November's mild weather during the peak of the rut season certainly had an impact on deer sightings and hunter success said Moreland. The cold weather that followed in December and January should have helped areas 1,4,5, and 6 but the cold fronts were brief making it difficult to pattern deer. The last two weeks of January provided hunters with the most consistent cold weather and should have benefitted Area 6 hunters.
> 
> While there should have been a good fawning season across the state,some hunters are reporting few fawns, according to Moreland. In 2001 there was a notable decline in the lactation rates of adult does on both the WMAs and DMAP lands. With a reduction in fawn production for 2001, these deer would now be in the 2+ year-old class and this could have reduced the sightings of adult does and young adult bucks. The decline of 2+ year-old does would also mean fewer adults does to produce fawns, if the doe population was being harvested at a high rate around the state. Data indicates a decline and leveling off of the doe harvest in Louisiana. This may be attributed to the aging hunter populations and hunting clubs across the state. Maintaining a high doe harvest involved a lot of effort and work on the part of clubs and hunters.
> 
> Considering the warm temperatures, varying mast productions and a fluctuating deer population, the Louisiana's 2003-04 deer harvest, with a new state record, proved a very satisfactory year, said Moreland.


----------



## doctariAFC

C Farmer said:


> There is another fact that needs to be considered in looking at these trends...... and that is the population of La. is ageing at a faster rate than the average of the nation thus explaning some of these trends .
> Jerry


Which will definitely mean replacement rates stimulated by the crossbow may not outpace the losses due to hunter age (negates the "woods will be flooded" argument). 

Further, as these folks age, even into their 40's and 50's, physical challenges and discomfort will hamper some archer's ability to operate a vertical bow as effectively as they once did. Allowing the choice for younger hunters (in context of 40's and 50') without restriction may allow these hunters the ability to remain in the sport longer.


----------



## progers

*census reports for all states*

National Survey of Fishing, Hunting, and Wildlife-Associated Recreation (FHWAR)
Presents microdata records (with any information that might identify a specific person or household removed) on individuals involved in fishing, hunting, and other wildlife-associated recreation, such as wildlife observation, photography, and feeding. Data include state in which these activities occurred; number of trips taken; duration of trips; and expenditures for food, lodging, transportation, and equipment. The survey was conducted by the Census Bureau for the Fish and Wildlife Service, Department of the Interior, which prepares printed reports in this field. 
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Publications listed are in the Portable Document Format (PDF). In order to view these files, you will need the Adobe(R) Acrobat(R) Reader which is available for free from the Adobe web site.




Here is a link that provides all the states census reports for 2001 and 1996, ALL on the same page!


http://www.census.gov/prod/www/abs/fishing.html


----------



## cynic

As we pro XBOW dig feverishly for more information it has become apparent that we are not convincing them WE are proving to ourselves and others that there really is no FACTUAL REASON not to allow the crossbow.


----------



## progers

There was a comment at one time that crossbows would increase poaching here in Louisiana. I wanted to touch back on that subject. Anyone can purchase a crossbow here in Louisiana. Poachers don't need a license so, if the xbow was an "efficent" tool for poaching game, they would already be using it, right?


Well, I ran a check back over the past 4 years and I found (1) case of someone taking game with a bow of any kind. Can you guess what type of bow it was? Wrong, it was a compound!  

http://www.wlf.state.la.us/apps/netgear/index.asp?cn=lawlf&pid=13&id=1072208502


----------



## doctariAFC

cynic said:


> As we pro XBOW dig feverishly for more information it has become apparent that we are not convincing them WE are proving to ourselves and others that there really is no FACTUAL REASON not to allow the crossbow.


Yep, and that is the process of education that State Houses and Governors want, and make decisions upon.

Like I said before, I am not interested in changing someone's personal opinion. This is about legislation, and education. In the process of digging out the facts and both sides learning these facts, we get to the crux, can show the reasons against this choice are founded in fear and fear alone. I understand fear. Fear of the unknown. 

Hey, the same fear was rampant during the compound introduction battle. I understand fear, and I am sympathetic. But when the facts clearly illustrate that the objections are primarily a justification of fear, rather than sound factual analysis, we begin to open eyes and minds.

Yet, the debate of the facts is critical to get the right plans in place for success, as well.

However, the facts are starting to speak with a very loud, clear voice. We must work on compiling all this information into a logical document. Perhaps several folks can get together and chop up parts of this project amongst yourselves (it would be great for LA hunters to take on this task) and compile into a document.

Ya know, another really interesting thing to do, which can allow insight into exactly what is hurting hunting, is to line up spending trends and some deographic profiles, and then lay the hunter attitude surveys against these and determine the validity of these opinions. Having a marketing background, I can certainly help guide anyone through this process. Pretty amazing.


----------



## progers

doctariAFC said:


> Yep, and that is the process of education that State Houses and Governors want, and make decisions upon.
> 
> Like I said before, I am not interested in changing someone's personal opinion. This is about legislation, and education. In the process of digging out the facts and both sides learning these facts, we get to the crux, can show the reasons against this choice are founded in fear and fear alone. I understand fear. Fear of the unknown.
> 
> Hey, the same fear was rampant during the compound introduction battle. I understand fear, and I am sympathetic. But when the facts clearly illustrate that the objections are primarily a justification of fear, rather than sound factual analysis, we begin to open eyes and minds.
> 
> Yet, the debate of the facts is critical to get the right plans in place for success, as well.
> 
> However, the facts are starting to speak with a very loud, clear voice. We must work on compiling all this information into a logical document. Perhaps several folks can get together and chop up parts of this project amongst yourselves (it would be great for LA hunters to take on this task) and compile into a document.
> 
> Ya know, another really interesting thing to do, which can allow insight into exactly what is hurting hunting, is to line up spending trends and some deographic profiles, and then lay the hunter attitude surveys against these and determine the validity of these opinions. Having a marketing background, I can certainly help guide anyone through this process. Pretty amazing.




COUNT ME IN!!!!! :wink:


----------



## la.basscat

*nasp*

Maybe just maybe if the bowhunters in La. like myself would seek and promote programs like NASP (national archery in the schools program) our youth would become more involved in the sport of archery and bow hunting and less involved in video games, television, and much worse things. Then possibly our numbers would turn around.


----------



## doctariAFC

la.basscat said:


> Maybe just maybe if the bowhunters in La. like myself would seek and promote programs like NASP (national archery in the schools program) our youth would become more involved in the sport of archery and bow hunting and less involved in video games, television, and much worse things. Then possibly our numbers would turn around.


This is certainly part of it, part of a solid plan.

:yo:

We also must start using our noggins as to how we can gain entrance into the schools to embrace educating, or at least offering Outdoors education through NASP and other initiatives.

Here's the angle that played really well with the NYS Assembly, brought forth by yours truly. The jaws dropped when I mentioned this. It really is a :doh:

What is one of the biggest problems with youth today? Its all over the news.... YOUTH OBESITY! In fact, another article regarding American kids being way fat is on FoxNews today, in conjunction with diabetes rates.

Enter Outdoors Activities under Physical Fitness/ Wellness programs 
Hey, if you're out hiking, climbing, stalking, shooting, etc., your physical fitness and well-being increases. That's the current hot button right now. We ain't pushin' it!


----------



## Free Range

> "Bow hunters were also more supportive of expanding both deer and turkey season, either for other types of weapons (63% vs. 46% non bowhunters)."


I see that, but to me that doesn’t say bowhunters are in favor of expanding the x-bow into the full of archery season by 63%. This is typical of any survey, questions could be misconstrued. If I was asked if I was in favor of expanding deer and turkey season for other types of weapons I would say, heck yeah, lets hunt all year long if there is enough game to go around. 




> Next, you will say that the gun hunters are gonna be pouring in "your woods" and messing up "your hunting". I understand your frustration on that BUT what you are failing to comprehend is the fact that the hunters who hunt whitetails with firearms are ALREADY in "your woods" during early archery season. They are using shotguns hunting small game. They are already there so, saying that people will be "pouring out of the woodwork" to invade "your woods" has no meaning what so ever as the hunters are already in the woods hunting a different type of game: squirrels, rabbits, dove and quail. These hunters are already hunting during early archery season. They are already in "your woods".


Not according to the USFG numbers, there far and I mean far less small game hunters in the US then big game hunters, something I found surprising.



> So, allowing xbows during archery season will mainly increase archery license sales. It will get existing hunters, who are already in the woods another means of hunting is all. Also, it will bring in more women and children to the world of archery.


This is something I have found interesting, sorry Doc I’m going to stray from facts a bit. But why do you think this is. With the advances in compounds, (Jim I agree with you somewhat on this) why do so many people wait for the x-bow to be legal before they take advantage of an opportunity they have had all along? I find it hard to believe that any person that really wanted to hunt during the archery season, would not have taken up the compound. I think the word perception comes into play. This is where the "only lazy hunters" remarks come from. I’m not saying that, so don’t jump on me about it, just making an observation about where the theory comes from.


----------



## progers

FreeRange,

Just lay out the reasons why YOU think crossbows should not be allowed to hunt big game, small game and predators as it is with all the other weapons that this state or any other state allows to be used while hunting game, with or without restrictions. I am very interested in hearing your reasons.

The States has approved rifles, shotguns, muzzleloaders, pistiols, recurves, longbows, compound bows and crossbows to take game with.

Now, we can use rifles, shotguns, muzzleloaders, pistiols, recurves, longbows and compound bows to take game with.

Why not crossbows? Why is that? What are your reasons for keeping the crossbow from being used without the restrictions as with the other weapons, in any season. 

Forget "archery" season! I'm talking about all the other seasons? Give me those reasons, please!?!


----------



## progers

The season expansion survey was about XBOWS, not other types of weapons. It was made legal the year before in regular deer season so, for it to be "expanded" into deer season would mean that it goes into something else other than gun season, right?


Who said anyone is waiting for the xbow to become legal before we bow hunt? We already bow hunt. We have already harvested game with compounds. It's not hard. We are simply ready to broaden our horizon and try new things, different things.

Who said that there was more small game hunters than gun hunters? I don't recall that conversation. I simply said that "the firearm" hunters are already in the woods. Meaning, the ones that are choosing to hunt small game. Yes, big game hunter #'s are way higher than small game hunter #'s. That is in that info that I posted. 

I will bet you money that the % of xbow hunters will be far less than the small game hunter % that you will find in the woods. And guess what, they will be less likely to spook the deer! 

Ok, back to the "lazy people". So what if it brought some lazy people who wouldn't hunt before into the woods. Wouldn't it be a GOOD THANG to get them off the couch and into the outdoors? I would tend to think so!


----------



## doctariAFC

I will stray - just in response to the "lazy hunter" statement.

I have never, ever met a lazy hunter. Perhaps a "not as dedicated" hunter as the entusiast, but that again is a personal position, comparing one person's "work ethic" regarding practice shooting and such to yourself.

FACT - Hunting is NOT a lazy man's sport. Any person who gets up well before morning's first light, trudges in the woods in the dark, either sets in a ground stand or climbs up a tree, and then proceeds to endure several hours of sitting completely still in all sorts of different and adverse weather conditions is by no means lazy. No matter what implement is chosen, or what season is hunted. I would submit all those folks that use a 4-wheeler to drag a deer out of the woods, or speed your travel to your spot is a heck of a lot lazier than a crossbow hunter. But I ain't gonna throw stones at that, either.


----------



## doctariAFC

*Another Issue Unearthed by FreeRange!*

Hey FreeRange, 

See how enlightening these reports can be? You have just hit another issue/ cause to youth hunting declines. Small Game hunting has fallen off the map, in favor of deer. 

How does one get a kid into hunting? WHat would you rather do? Have your son or daughter sit motionless waiting for that big buck or take them out flushing grouse or pheasant, or sit in a duck blind on opening day? 

The demands of big game hunting are NOT condusive to introducing a young child to the sport of hunting. Attention span thing. Yet, hunting has become so completely tunnel visioned on whitetails, that TV shows, major ADs, etc., all continue to push the whitetail deer. 

This isn't a bad strategy from the retailer perspective. Deer drives dollars! It is, however, detrimental to the sportsmen. We have tunnel vision on deer, and we neglect the fact that ecosystems are a network of many species living in a balance in any given area. We have the QDM movement, yet not a whole heck of a lot of pushing for QWM (QUality Wildlife Management). You can never benefit deer as a herd by myopically focusing on deer with your conservation efforts. Its a balance, and all wildlife must be considered for any single species to show success (healthy success). This one is another issue I have been trumpeting, but I am only one voice. I do have a swelling of interest and understanding, but this takes time.


----------



## flatdog

First, I must say that my comments are strictly about the quote not the person who made it.




> I find it hard to believe that any person that really wanted to hunt during the archery season, would not have taken up the compound. I think the word perception comes into play. This is where the "only lazy hunters" remarks come from. I’m not saying that, so don’t jump on me about it, just making an observation about where the theory comes from.


It's illogical to attach laziness to a hunter because of his/her chosen weapon. You must take into account the appeal or lack thereof that different designs hold. We make decisions on what bow to buy or take into the woods based upon looks, brand name, ease or difficulty of use, etc. Once the decision to use legal tackle has been made. The choice of that tackle is left up to the individual. As well it should be.

If a Xbow user is lazy by comparison to a Cbow user. (A point I do not concede).Then just where does the Cbow guy who hunts with his Mathews using a release on Tuesday stand in comparison to himself. When on Friday he switches to his Bowtech with fingers? Because he killed his best buck with it last season.

It takes significantly more time to become proficient with fingers than it does with a release. At any range you may choose to make the comparison.

So is our hunter highly motivated and skilled on Friday and a lazy unethical slob on Tuesday? What judgement should he pass upon himself?

flatdog


----------



## doctariAFC

flatdog said:


> First, I must say that my comments are strictly about the quote not the person who made it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It's illogical to attach laziness to a hunter because of his/her chosen weapon. You must take into account the appeal or lack thereof that different designs hold. We make decisions on what bow to buy or take into the woods based upon looks, brand name, ease or difficulty of use, etc. Once the decision to use legal tackle has been made. The choice of that tackle is left up to the individual. As well it should be.
> 
> If a Xbow user is lazy by comparison to a Cbow user. (A point I do not concede).Then just where does the Cbow guy who hunts with his Mathews using a release on Tuesday stand in comparison to himself. When on Friday he switches to his Bowtech with fingers? Because he killed his best buck with it last season.
> 
> It takes significantly more time to become proficient with fingers than it does with a release. At any range you may choose to make the comparison.
> 
> So is our hunter highly motivated and skilled on Friday and a lazy unethical slob on Tuesday? What judgement should he pass upon himself?
> 
> flatdog


Welcome to the debate, flatdog! Glad you could join us.
Interesting and thought-provoking question. Gives us all pause to think a while on hunting, what it means to each individual, and consider and respect what it means to your fellow hunter.

Just to stay on point, I would certainly be interested in any documentation your could provide this debate as a back up to the conditions of this question. What I mean is, you may be able to find some archery competition information, and examine the numbers (not the names) of competitive archers (3-D, field or both) who shoot both compound and recurve/ long bow. What % of competitive archers use both in competition? Then find out how many of them deer hunt! % of them.

This could be an interesting exercise. Use some information regarding release penetration of market for compound bows/ bows in general. Securing this information for say, on an annual basis may be difficult to secure, but, believe me, you certainly can secure data concerning units sold Nationally, by state, or even closer, more granular, when capturing consumption data compiled by an AC Nielsen, Information Resources, or another such marketing firm. This is a BIG business (hunting and fishing) with such players as Wal-Mart, Bass Pro, Gander Mountain, Target, etc., who leverage scanners, and whose data is reported to these marketing information houses for report compilation determining share of market per brand, retail dollar and unit sales, broken down by brand, by type, by unit, etc. These players also leverage consumption data from these marketing firms to gauge their share of market/ position in the market, category trends (growth or shrink, leading brands and dogs) and performance (how much $$ does each category generate, which tells you how much space to devote to it.) You can also secure the entire category information, including average retail price and geographic definitions, store counts, etc. You will probably need to speak with a manufacturer or major retailer to secure this report without paying through the snoot, but you may find someone who can get you this.

Then, we can take the actual UNIT sales for a specific year, and figure out how many hunters bought new releases for that season. We do this by applying USF&W numbers based on how many archers spent money on archery related equipment for the specific year (you would have to assume spending habits in terms of % archers making the specific spends is constant - like archery accessories - 16% spent money on this in 2001, as an example) applying this # and comparing it to the total units sold for LA, or anywhere else, and you have the release shooter's renewal/ new entry for that license year. You can then get a decent picture of how many release shooters might exist, and, if you have some business knowledge of buying patterns and habits (this stuff is studied, too, one could get to a very accurate assessment of how many release shooters exist in Louisiana, or anywhere else.) It certainly wouldn't be exactly right on the money, but I would be confident that the result would be +/- 10% from actual, perhaps even closer.

That would be kind of fun....

Don't know what it would accomplish, other than to present another piece of backup to a laundry list of facts which go to support a position and diffuse the oppositional arguments?


----------



## cynic

In a perfect world everyone would be equal in all abilities. Same draw length, poundage, speed. Not everyone has the ability to draw 70lbs at 30" thus they are being handicapped in speed and distance. Those of us that have a short draw are force to shoot shorter shots and slower speeds. No two archers have the same ability. Hunters are being termed lazy for opting to want to use the xbow. Lets say we put restrictions on compounds to make it equal and fair for each and every hunter. That way there will be no advantages as to draw length and speed. The xbow is basically an equalizer, giving each hunter an option to be able to keep up with the compound technology with the exception of noise. With the xbow the playing field is potentially equal. Everyone would be able to shoot just as far just, as fast and thus hunting skills will be the deciding factor in success.


----------



## Jim C

The following archers have been observed by ME personally to have used two different bows in a sanctioned competition during the same event-(the vegas cases I was told by the archer and saw the scores on line)

1) Butch Johnson-won the national recurve indoor title shooting at Michigan-2000 I believe and also finished high in the senior men's compound (there is only release class in the NAA unless you are in the masters or other older age groups

2) Michelle Ragsdale won the national compound target outdoor championship and shot recurve as well-I believe she finished as high as second in recurve but not the year she won the compound (they switched the shooting order-it used to be all the women shot one line, all the men another and the NAA changed it so that compound women shot with recurve men and vice versa)

3) Aya Labrie has done both several times-both indoor and outdoor

4) former world compound indoor champion Ashley Kamuf shot at least one outdoor nationals with both bows-that means all day shooting about 180 arrows for four days in brutal heat that we got at Canton michigan

5) at Vegas, you can't shoot the championship division with two bows but several top archers shoot the championship division in one and flights in others. People I know who have done this include Mrs Ragsdale, and Mike Gerard who has been on the top target with both bows at various points in his excellent career

6) on a lower level, in 2003 I was the ohio Indoor target champion in both olympic bow and crossbow-In 04 and 05 I was xbow champion and recurve runner up-I have shot both events since 1999 and this will be the first indoor I will have missed in 7 years (other committment)

7) Manning Baumgartner of Ohio shot compound and FITA Barebow on the same line-A he shot compound=B line he shot BB-he is a world class indoor BB shooter with numerous national titles and he often places highly in 50+ compound shoots. IIRC he once shot recurve, barebow and compound in a tournament (I offered him a crossbow to see if he could do the real iron man but he said he wanted to practice with the xbow a few times so he might just do it one day)

8. In 2000 Junior world team member Brandon Spray (recurve) won the Ohio indoor recurve junior title (he was high score) and then set the FITA world 25 meter junior record in compound

9) my wife liz has medaled at the Ohio Indoor shooting Compound/Olympic and Compound/Fita Barebow

10) Hobart Murphy shot the Ohio double 900 (90 arrows a day) with both an olympic bow and a target crossbow-A line-Recurve B line Crossbow-he had to use two different bales since xbows shoot 65-50-35M and the recurve was 60-50-40 

those are cases of people who shoot two radically different bows in the same tournaments that I personally know about or actually witnessed (I wasn't at vegas but the scores were easily seen on line

Petra Erickson of Sweden-IIRC held world indoor records in both compound and recurve


----------



## waywardson

I got in on this late and started reading until it made my head hurt. It is all like a tennis match, just back and forth. Both sides of this debate can probably present facts all day long; the best part is all facts are interpretable in multiple ways so they're really not going to get you anywhere. Does anyone remember the research released a few years ago saying cigarette tar actually had some health benefits?! Wording of questions and limited reporting of the results can sure make any research project really interesting. You know, whether the crossbow is introduced or not doesn't really matter to me. I bow hunt and shoot 3D; given that I am diagnosed with MD, I could probably shoot a xbow if I wanted, but I don't. Just a personal preference. If it is legalized, the only thing I want to see happen is a rule that it cannot be already cocked while sitting in the stand. Make it so when the animal shows up, the crossbow has to be cocked so that there is as much movement preparing to shoot it as there is with a bow; that way, everyone will be on an even playing field and stop all the petty bickering (comparable speeds and effective yardages). Yes, I know there is a significant difference with the poundage, but you play with what you bring. The choice is all yours (except for those with legitimate disabilities). As for declining numbers of hunters, look closely at the prices of leases over the last couple of years. A former lease I was on went from about $300 to $365 to over $400 in about 4 years. Take a close look at the job market in LA and you will understand why people can't afford this. I have a lot of friends who found themselves unemployed at various times during the last couple of years. We also had a rise in the cost of some of our licenses; it wasn't anything drastic, but it does add up. Also take a close look at the weather. Our weather is always unpredictable, but when it is 80-some-odd degrees during the season openers and half of the season, that can also have a significant impact. Then there is the every-present cycling of hunters; there is a natural cycle with highs and lows, just like with most other things in the world. In all, there are too many confounds to determine what exactly has resulted in this decrease, and the possibility of disecting each's impact would be practically impossible. The addition of the crossbow could be the best thing to happen to hunting in LA, or the worst thing short of a nuclear disaster, or maybe it won't have any effect. There would only be one way to find out. Given the decisions of our game commisioners over the last few years, it would probably be best to put it to a statewide vote, see what happens, and make modifications from there. Just my cent-and-a-half.


----------



## flatdog

Thanks for the welcome. Stats aren't my long suit but I'll see what can be done. Never know what will turn up. 

Jim C sets the bar kinda high by providing such a great amount of information so quickly.

I may be of more use if and when the conversation turns slightly less statistical in nature.


----------



## cynic

waywardson said:


> If it is legalized, the only thing I want to see happen is a rule that it cannot be already cocked while sitting in the stand. Make it so when the animal shows up, the crossbow has to be cocked so that there is as much movement preparing to shoot it as there is with a bow; that way, everyone will be on an even playing field and stop all the petty bickering (comparable speeds and effective yardages). Yes, I know there is a significant difference with the poundage, but you play with what you bring. The choice is all yours (except for those with legitimate disabilities).


The Problem with that is with out it being cocked there is way more movement with a xbow. 2hands 1foot draw string insert arrow lift aim shoot, Cranking device= crank crank crank(I', not sure how many) insert arrow lift aim shoot. If I would be allowed to post a picture I could effectively show the ridicule of a truly Handicapped hunter. He is a double amputee both legs are removed at the thigh. He will no longer bow hunt because several HUNTERS made a comment "he can still draw a bow that's bull----" "why is he shooting a xbow?". Though narrow shallow minds is not a handicap it is deabilitating. This person is my brother. Now he takes advantage of the BUCKMASTER DISABLED HUNTER program just so he doesn't have to be around the mentally challenged everyday hunter. Seems we need a new program HUNTER AGAINST HUNTER. http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y259/cynicpb/BuckMasterRon2.jpg While he has been able to overcome the handicap he can not escape the ridicule of other hunters..I know that this is not about HANDICAPPED use but it is about hunter-vs-hunter, ridicule, browbeating. As I always say shallow only goes so deep


----------



## waywardson

That statement was meant to be sarcastic...I figured someone out there would bring up that debate later (about movement). Sorry it didn't present the way I intended. The whole point of my post was just to point out that this is an issue that can't easily be resolved, and like I said, put it to a vote and see what the voters say. You know, you don't see this kind of squabbling go on within the ranks of the antis. When you have such division among the same group, in this case hunters, it makes the work of those wishing to stop it even easier. It's time to tolerate the differences and realize that hunters are hunters, no matter what they shoot, and I for one am glad to be one.


----------



## progers

*I don't think so Tim.......*



> Originally Posted by waywardson
> If it is legalized, the only thing I want to see happen is a rule that it cannot be already cocked while sitting in the stand. Make it so when the animal shows up, the crossbow has to be cocked so that there is as much movement preparing to shoot it as there is with a bow; that way, everyone will be on an even playing field and stop all the petty bickering (comparable speeds and effective yardages). Yes, I know there is a significant difference with the poundage, but you play with what you bring. The choice is all yours (except for those with legitimate disabilities).



Well, then to make it fair, you have to draw a line on the compound. Lets say you can't use a bow with more than a 50% let off, you have to leave your arrow in the quiver until the deer gets out in front of you and you can only take one shot plus, you have to lay the compound down sideways in your lap. Make it so when the animal shows up, there is as much movement preparing to shoot it as there is with a crossbow, then.



> that way, everyone will be on an even playing field and stop all the petty bickering (comparable speeds and effective yardages).


The field is level. The deer make sure of that. As far as speed, a crossbow shot at 350fps reaches a target at about .08 of a sec. faster than a compound that is shot at the same target at 30 yards at 260fps.

Speed and effective yardage are matched on the compound and crossbow. Hoe you hit is all up to the shooter. 

If you don't belive that, go look at P&Y records at all the deer taken at over 50 yards with compounds and "traditional" equipment. At 50 yards, a crossbow drops over 4ft. Anything over 30 yards with either bow is majorly compensated.


What you said would be the same as me wanting the guys who shoot semi-auto rifles to leave their clips out of the gun til the deer gets there to make it more even with me because I shoot a bolt action.

WE NOT HUNTING THE SAME DEER! WHAT DOES IT MATTER???


----------



## progers

waywardson said:


> That statement was meant to be sarcastic...I figured someone out there would bring up that debate later (about movement). Sorry it didn't present the way I intended. The whole point of my post was just to point out that this is an issue that can't easily be resolved, and like I said, put it to a vote and see what the voters say. You know, you don't see this kind of squabbling go on within the ranks of the antis. When you have such division among the same group, in this case hunters, it makes the work of those wishing to stop it even easier. It's time to tolerate the differences and realize that hunters are hunters, no matter what they shoot, and I for one am glad to be one.



Ok, that's kewl then. We have already debatd that and it you will go back and look, we are able to prove that one is just as much movement as the other. We are trying to be serious so, sarcasim is really not allowed in the rules.

You're right, you do see this kind of squabble going on with the anti's. You got the group that wants to hunt and the group that don't want them to hunt. So, which side sounds more like an anti-hunter then? I have a good guess on that one.




> It's time to tolerate the differences and realize that hunters are hunters, no matter what they shoot, and I for one am glad to be one


AMEN BROTHA MAN!


----------



## TNUSA-1

*Good Job on the Debates*

My first Post over here. Good site, good debate it took awhile to read all of it although I've had a daily briefing from the TNUSA crossbow debating team. Not bad guys, Now I know more about the crossbow pro and con than I ever wanted to know. That's what it will take to get the crossbow legalized in Louisiana and other states as we move along.

I'll not lay down my credentials, but I can say this, I'm not representing being agaist any form of legal and ethical hunting. However it would seem others are. And that's why we have come into the picture. You see we have a problem with any group of hunters being agaist a good form of hunting ie: The Crossbow. The American Crossbow Federation is good and sound with excelant values and promotes hunting in the finest light. So does the Bayou State Bowmen Assn. of Louisiana. Looking at their rules and bylaws you get the feeling we should all be one happy family. Until you discover the Agaist Factor. No where in the rules of BSBA do you see a rule agaist crossbows until you look in the achivement part. Along with paving a parking lot and giving a few bucks here and there we have the grand achivement of stonewalling the crossbow....no reasons are stated. Go look for yourself..Fact.

We offered them a compermise in several differrent agreeable ways...but they wouldn't compermise....The only coment was not to post on the issue of crossbows anymore ...or else...Fact go see for your self.

Well they are famous for that, but on a higher level...locked out the ATA from the Archery Sumit meeting, because they disagreed with some of their views....fact go see for yourself.

So where is this coming from..Pope and Young... Fact go see for yourself.

It not just Louisiana, or the BSBA it's a nation wide effort to delegalize the crossbow, even in states that it has been legal in for years. Folks I dont think that one is going to fly in the face of legal crossbow use in established states with the facts right in front of everyone that it is a good thing...Fact go see for yourself.

In order to do this they now have pro political analyists to put a negative spin on everything crossbow. I dont know if they are hired or voluteered, but if they are getting paid....what for, fighting an enemy that doesn't exsist. Thought that was a non profit organization not agaist any thing but anti-hunters.

Are they with everybody else? I dont think so, they want to be the "Voice of all Bowhunters because, to them they deserve it." Go see for yourself ..Fact.

Actully they have seperated themselves, not good, they consider themselves elite, and better, just ask one. Fact go see for yourself.

And handicapped folks dont think your off the hook either, they want to find a way to keep you from using the crossbow even when the crossbow would best suit your needs...they say they can find something else..yea right. Fact go see for yourself.

This is all found in the minutes of the great Bowhunters Sumit... And along with this they through in the don't worry about discrimination clause. Better start worrying.

Last year I went to the polls and cast my vote for the "right to hunt" law. Well if that is a right. That right can be violated. Not just for me that wants to use a crossbow, but a whole legitimate and well known Association, the American Crossbow Federation. Now we have stated pleanty of good viable reasons to initiate the crossbow into the bowseason, as many other states do. We know it will bring more hunters into the fold and that is a fact. It will bring in more revenue and that is a fact. It will not destroy bowhunting, because if I thought it would myself and the many others that want the crossbow, we would not be here, that is a fact. It will not interfere with the Pope and Young records because the Crossbow has its own set of records just like Black Powder guns, that is a fact. This list could go on and on. Those of you that know something about Armor, consider this a "Thunderun". We have what we need, Outdoor writers, media, celibrity experts, established crossbows experts, and just hometown grassroots hunters that like to put a deer in the freezer like you and me and we will not stop ...ever..until we get the crossbow legalized in Louisiana and thats all there is to it. When we do we will bring in these experts and insure the new crossbowmen know how to properly use it. Legislative action has started in a civil and proper manner with no maluse to anyone. Remeber we are not agaist anything...Pass it on.


----------



## thesource

progers said:


> You got the group that wants to hunt and the group that don't want them to hunt. So, which side sounds more like an anti-hunter then?


Typical....more misrepresentation and spin from the crossbow side.

If the group that you say "wants to hunt" really wanted to hunt, they should be pushing for a season, not necessarily bow season. (Not to mention that they could already be hunting in bow season - if they would bother to learn to use a bow)

And the group that you say "don't want them to hunt" really only doesn't want them to use their crossbows during bowseason....they would be OK with using the crossbow to hunt in any other season but bow.

Funny how that seems much less anti-hunting than you would like to portray it. In fact, it seems like a compromise just waiting to happen...


----------



## doctariAFC

The debate about whether a crossbow is a bow or not is moot. Some that are opposed believe it isn't and those which are for believe it is. Personal opinions are out, because we do not define these devices ourselves. This has already been done by the IRS. It's considered a bow for tax purposes and that is all that matters.

There is no prerequisite for sitting in your stand and having to load and cock your implement, regardless of season or implement used. By that reasoning, the hunts going on in PA with early archery and muzzleloader would have required the musket hunter to laod their firearm when game was in range. Also, no law is currently on the books to tell compound hunters that as well. Although some would scoff, the handicapped folks using draw locks would be sol. Ditto for the handicapped crossbow hunter. Gotta apply this rule equally, otherwise the state opens themselves up to civil liberties cause for actions.


----------



## thesource

doctariAFC said:


> This has already been done by the IRS. It's considered a bow for tax purposes and that is all that matters.


Here's your chance to educate me, Rich.

How, exactly does the IRS determine a crossbow is a bow?

I'm hip on Pittman Robertson - and that can't be what you are referring to, because NOWHERE does it say that a crossbow is a bow. In fact bows, guns, arrows, ammo....and crossbows are all taxed at exactly the same rate (only handguns are different.)

_The Federal Aid in Wildlife Restoration Act, popularly know as the Pittman-Robertson Act, was approved by Congress on September 2, 1937, and begin functioning July 1, 1938. 

Funds are derived from an 11 percent Federal excise tax on sporting arms, ammunition, and archery equipment, and a 10 percent tax on handguns. _

This is your chance to present data - I'd love to see it. Given the fact that the US government allows bows to be used to hunt waterfowl, but doesn't allow crossbows to be used for that purpose, it would appear to the casual observer that the feds do NOT agree that they are the same.

Please prove otherwise.


----------



## progers

thesource said:


> Typical....more misrepresentation and spin from the crossbow side.
> 
> If the group that you say "wants to hunt" really wanted to hunt, they should be pushing for a season, not necessarily bow season. (Not to mention that they could already be hunting in bow season - if they would bother to learn to use a bow)
> 
> And the group that you say "don't want them to hunt" really only doesn't want them to use their crossbows during bowseason....they would be OK with using the crossbow to hunt in any other season but bow.
> 
> Funny how that seems much less anti-hunting than you would like to portray it. In fact, it seems like a compromise just waiting to happen...




No, that would NOT be a "spin" for the crossbow side. That is actual facts. Not everyone is against them totally but, there are some that are against them PERIOD. That would be the group I am referring to. 

The BSBA were asked "Are you against crossbows for just bow season or are you against them being used all together by anyone in any season."
The BSBA has stated that they are against ANYONE and ANYBODY hunting with a crossbow period. One of the Directors of BSBA made this very clear. 

They are opposed to it being in firearm season just as much. Go ask them. We did. They will tell you that if it is legalized during firearm season that will just be a "gateway" to it getting into bow season.

The crossbow does deserve it's own season. At least one week of the 3 weeks of bow season should do the trick. Also, with that being said, just to be fair, the compound should have a seperate season to give the "traditional" bowhunters their own season.

We are waiting for the compromise. We are here everyday. We need someone to show up to compromise with. 

Compromise:
Crossbows in firearm season, MZL season, late archery season, and one week of early bow season, being the last of the three weeks of early archery season, just before MZL starts. 

We also want them to be legalized for not just whitetails but, all big game including hogs. Small game, turkey season, predator hunting, bow fishing and anything else that we are allowed to hunt that I might be leaving out.

That is the compromise. That is the only thing that I can see that would be fair unless they were allowed in all of archery season.


----------



## thesource

Well, I am firm believer in letting LA sportsmen decide whats best for LA sportsmen, so I'll be the first to admit that my opinion doesn't matter.

But I would think that allowing crossbows for 1 of 3 weeks of early bowseason and all of late bowseason seems reasonable. 

But I'll bet that there are as many pro crossbow folks who are militantly demanding the whole season as there are opponents who want to keep the crossbow out of the entire season.

Is there a special bow season for hogs, or just an open season? I've never understood the logic behind prohibiting crossbows for a species if the season is simply open or closed. If you can shoot it with a gun, why not allow a crossbow?


----------



## progers

thesource said:


> Well, I am firm believer in letting LA sportsmen decide whats best for LA sportsmen, so I'll be the first to admit that my opinion doesn't matter.
> 
> But I would think that allowing crossbows for 1 of 3 weeks of early bowseason and all of late bowseason seems reasonable.
> 
> But I'll bet that there are as many pro crossbow folks who are militantly demanding the whole season as there are opponents who want to keep the crossbow out of the entire season.
> 
> Is there a special bow season for hogs, or just an open season? I've never understood the logic behind prohibiting crossbows for a species if the season is simply open or closed. If you can shoot it with a gun, why not allow a crossbow?




There is just an open season for hogs. Source, we are in total agreement there, I have never understood the logic behind prohibiting crossbows myself, for any and all species. Yes, if you can shoot it with a gun, you should be allowed the "option" to shoot it with a crossbow. 

I think that giving it one week of early season archery is fair, out of respect for the "bow hunters" but, will the compound crew be willing to give the "traditional" bowhunters a week back out of respect for them? I mean, if we are going to be fair then we need to be fair to everyone, don't ya think??


----------



## doctariAFC

thesource said:


> Here's your chance to educate me, Rich.
> 
> How, exactly does the IRS determine a crossbow is a bow?
> 
> I'm hip on Pittman Robertson - and that can't be what you are referring to, because NOWHERE does it say that a crossbow is a bow. In fact bows, guns, arrows, ammo....and crossbows are all taxed at exactly the same rate (only handguns are different.)
> 
> _The Federal Aid in Wildlife Restoration Act, popularly know as the Pittman-Robertson Act, was approved by Congress on September 2, 1937, and begin functioning July 1, 1938.
> 
> Funds are derived from an 11 percent Federal excise tax on sporting arms, ammunition, and archery equipment, and a 10 percent tax on handguns. _
> 
> This is your chance to present data - I'd love to see it. Given the fact that the US government allows bows to be used to hunt waterfowl, but doesn't allow crossbows to be used for that purpose, it would appear to the casual observer that the feds do NOT agree that they are the same.
> 
> Please prove otherwise.


Ok. Here. This is the best I can produce right now. Government has moved some stuff again. When I stumble upon the classification the IRS places crossbows into (commerce taxation) I will post that as well. Typically, however, the crossbow revenues are bucketed in the archery equipment category.

This, however is from Wikipedia, When looking at the term BOW.



From Wikipedia said:


> *Types of bow*
> 
> *Hun bow*
> 
> Hun bowThe Hun bow is an asymmetric, composite and recurve bow. It was invented in Central Asia and carried to Europe first by the Huns.
> 
> Its asymmetric shape allowed the bow to be increased in size without restricting its use from the saddle of a horse. The lower part had to be shorter to facilitate movement across the back and neck of the horse, but the upper part was not so constrained and could be longer. The result was a stronger, longer-range bow than that of the Germanic tribes of Europe. Quite simply, the users of the Hun bow could shoot down their enemies before they could use their bows. The asymmetry, however, led to less accuracy, although this was offset to some extent by the fact that the weapon was a composite bow.
> 
> The respect that the Goths had of the Hun bow was transmitted orally for a millennium among Germanic tribes and comes down to us in the Scandinavian Hervarar saga. The Geatish king Gizur who commands the Goth forces taunts the Huns and says:
> 
> Eigi gera Húnar oss felmtraða né hornbogar yðrir.
> We fear neither the Huns nor their hornbows.
> 
> *Hungarian bow*
> The Hungarian bow, an improvement of the Hun bow, is a symmetric, composite and recurve bow. It was invented in Central Asia.
> 
> It improved on the Hun bow by lengthening its lower part until both halves were of equal size. This symmetry increased both its range and accuracy. If the archer was using the Hungarian bow while mounted, he or she needed to stand up on the saddle, an action that was impossible until the invention of the stirrup. See also composite bow. 111
> 
> 
> *Mongol bow*
> 
> Tip (Siyah) of a Mongol bow. You can see where ibex horn is used.The Mongol bow is the type most often referred to as the typical Asian recurve bow, made as a composite bow, from ibex (or more traditionally) water buffalo horn, sinew, birk wood and birk bark, and bamboo. The principal technical difference used to distinguish a "Mongol bow" from a "Hungarian bow" is the presence of a string run--an attachment of horn or wood, used to hold the string a little further apart from the bow's limbs. This attachment has been said to aid the archer by either creating a mechanical advantage at the end of the draw or giving an extra "snap" and acceleration to the string after the release.
> 
> The Mongolian tradition of archery is attested by an inscription on a stone stele that was found near Nerchinsk in Siberia: "While Chinggis Khan was holding an assembly of Mongolian dignitaries, after his conquest of Sartaul (East Turkestan), Esungge (the son of Chinggis Khan's brother) shot a target at 335 alds" (536m)."
> 
> 
> *Longbow*
> 
> A very long bow, usually made from yew, that fires at a far range: a longbow was often built to be as tall as the archer who carried it. Perhaps the most famous example is the "English" or "Welsh" longbow, made traditionally of yew wood, and carried by English armies to great effect in the Hundred Years' War. At close range, the longbow could be aimed directly at an individual target, and was capable of penetrating all but the very best plate armor of the time. At distance, archers would fire mass volleys on a high, arching trajectory at enemy formations, making longbow fire in some respects more akin to light artillery of the modern era. Longbow arrows lost some penetrative power used in this fashion, but anecdotes still abound of knights pinned to their horses by arrows that took them through the thigh, etc.
> 
> This style of bow was used up until the time of the English Civil War but was replaced in many cases by the matchlock musket, mostly because of the years of training involved with archery, even though the longbow was capable of much higher rates of fire--as many as 5 to 10 shots in 30 seconds to the musket's 1 shot in 30 seconds. The longbow, in the hands of a skilled archer, was also undoubtedly far more accurate than early musketry, and had a greater range. The musket, like the crossbow before it, could be effectively employed with relatively little training, and had the psychological advantages of producing fire, smoke and noise in abundance when it was fired.
> 
> 
> *Flatbow*
> 
> A self-bow made from very hard and resilient wood, such as ash, hickory or oak. Its name is due to fact that it is made flat, not unlike a ski. The flatbow's limbs are wider near the handle than on the tips, spreading the stress more efficiently than those of an ordinary longbow or composite bow. The traditional Finnish flatbow is made from ash and is as tall as the shooter. Flatbows are often made recurved.
> 
> 
> *Crossbow*
> 
> An automatic bow: The bow string is tied on a wooden support that holds it. When a trigger is pressed, the wooden support releases the bow string, releasing the arrow. The crossbow requires less strength to fire it (but more to load it). Also known as a Bowgun.
> 
> 
> *Composite bow*
> 
> A composite bow is made from different materials laminated together, usually applied under tension.
> 
> The Hun and Hungarian bows use horn on rear and with sinew on front. They are recurve bows as the shape curves back on itself and it is this design that gives the bows tremendous power compared with their size.
> 
> The English longbow has a natural composite of yew sap wood and heart wood. The heart wood is on the inside of the bow and resists compression and the outer sapwood stretches. This makes a powerful natural spring.
> 
> Modern composite bows use laminated wood, plastic, and fibreglass. These are little affected by changes of temperature and humidity.
> 
> 
> *Ballista*
> 
> A ballista resembles an oversized crossbow, but uses torsion springs instead of an elastic bow to store its energy. It is used as a siege weapon and is very effective because it only requires two men to fire it. It fires large arrows or stones.
> 
> 
> *Compound bow*
> 
> A compound bow is a modern bow that has pulleys or cams at the end of each limb through which the bow string passes. As the bow is pulled back (drawn) the pulleys or cams turn which, in turn, reduce the amount of force needed to completely draw the bow. They are little affected by changes of temperature and humidity and gives superior accuracy, velocity, and distance in comparison to the traditional longbow. Unlike traditional bows that are usually made of wood or wood laminated with other materials, compound bows are usually made of aluminium and composite materials. They were first developed and patented by Holless Wilbur Allen in the USA in the 1960s and have become increasingly popular.
> 
> With a traditional single string bow as the string is pulled back the tension increases, so the bow must be aimed and released quickly, on release the string rapidly accelerates to its fastest and then decelerates for the rest strings return to stationary. There are mechanical advantages to pulleys:
> 
> the draw force does not increase as the bow is drawn enabling the archer to hold the bow fully drawn and take time to aim;
> the pulleys enable the archer to draw a bow with a much higher draw force than they could manage with a conventional single stringed bow (there are very few people alive today who could shoot accurately with a single string using the draw force of the longbows found on the Mary Rose);
> the string continues to accelerate from the release to rest so imparting more power (and hence speed) to the arrow.
> Archers in modern archery competitions usually use a release aid to hold the string steady. This attaches to the bowstring at a point and permits the archer to release the string with a pull of a trigger.
> 
> *Arbalest*
> 
> An arbalest is a crossbow with steel prod (the "bow" part). It was much more powerful than a crossbow with a wood reactor.


Interesting to see it also called the Bowgun. I guess its a bow - and its a gun. Of course, when I call up Gun, no mention of a crossbow.... 

Oh well, for whatever its worth. This, again will be defined by state houses and tax collectors. And yet, even among states differing opinions exist. Again, opinions.


----------



## progers

doctariAFC said:


> Interesting to see it also called the Bowgun.



This is true Doc but, you forgot one thing about Wikipedia: 

"Welcome to Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia that ANYONE CAN EDIT." 

Anyone? That is spooky?!?  

LOL! :wink:


----------



## doctariAFC

progers said:


> This is true Doc but, you forgot one thing about Wikipedia:
> 
> "Welcome to Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia that ANYONE CAN EDIT."
> 
> Anyone? That is spooky?!?
> 
> LOL! :wink:


So I guess Pope and Young is going to go in there and rip that right out... Put it in with bombs, not bows. Got it! :chortle:

Underscores the nature of this piece of the debate is again, opinion, which no one is going to change in someone else.


----------



## TNUSA-1

*Test petition*

For two weeks we have had a test petition on the subject of Crossbow Legalization in Louisiana. It has circulated amoung hunters and non-hunters and we have gotten 100% signatures. Thats a lot of people for the crossbow. A clear indicator that once the word gets out, its only a matter of time. What the people want is to be able to make their own decisions based on facts. What they dont want is a small group of individuals dictating they are the voice of bowhunting, like the rooster crowing and taking credit for the sunrise. It doesn't take much to get folks to sign the petition, just let them read it, or read it to them. The grass roots hunters of Louisiana are not Trophy hunters, they just want to get a deer for the freezer. There was a deep concern about losing the hunter population, all seem to agree that the crossbow will help instill intrest. Noteably teen agers, one of our lowest intrest groups were very interested in trying the crossbow.

Evidently like Dirty Harry, and the 44 magnum. The new movie Van Helsing, in which the hero slays vampires with an automatic crossbow, has become a 
cult classic. I saw the movie myself and you can see why...The kids think the crossbow is cool. 

Candidate for Eagle Scout, and winner of the Louisiana "Spirit of the Wild Award" 16 year old Steven Knust of Leesville, commented that the crossbow would be his choice for hunting. Later when I talked to his parents about it. They said they were going to buy him one but found that it was illegal to hunt with. I told them go ahead and get him one, if he needs anything to hunt with until we get it legalized he can dip into my gun collection...no problem.

Here was a prime example of a kid that wanted to go hunting, made a weapons choice and was told no. Anyway, Steve has now joined the famous Top Gun Leauge of Sharpshooters and will have his outdoor artwork published for the first time, in the March issue of Bayou Outdoors Magazine. I'm looking forward to calling him in his first wild turkey....just like I did for Kade Jones last year...Louisiana's first bow killed gobbler by a youth hunter with a bow. Yes Im all for bowhunting and crossbows too...Pass it on.


----------



## cynic

That's what I'm talking about. Way to go Dougk. Who speaks louder than the IRS? I guess that the only way that we will know is, if the PEOPLE of La say they want it. Now, I see the only way that the anti-crossbow group could possibly have enough support is if they combine with the ranks of the anti-hunter groups. That would be a win win for the anti's. NO crossbow for archers and NO hunting for the antihunter. I forsee, not that I'm psychic, many anti-hunters joining Bow assn. to have a foot in the door. Angerly supporting the anti-xbow movement. While not being against the shooting sport of ARCHERY just the hunting aspect there of. I would venture that many ARCHERS are not hunters. Various states have adopted the RIGHT TO HUNT. We just want "the right to hunt with a xbow"


----------



## thesource

DougK said:


> I went to the IRS site and put _crossbow_ into their search engine..


Wow, Doug....I am impressed with your research. Usually you just sit back and make snide comments.

I would point out that the articles subject to tax is a listing, not a definition. They wanted to tax crossbows (as they should) and had to bucket them somewhere, and archery does make more sense than sporting firearms. 

Remember though - this is a listing for TAX PURPOSES. You would be exaggerating if you imply any deeper meaning (like the ATA did using this data).

But thanks for the reference - I learned something new (which doesn't happen very often in these debates.)

Can you answer some other questions (while you are on a roll)?

Why would the US government combine the bow and crossbow for tax purposes but then specifically define them as different with regards to migratory bird hunting? There is NO doubt that they are DEFINED differently in this instance, is there? Which "definition" has more meaning to those involved in this debate, a tax definition or a hunting definition?


----------



## thesource

doctariAFC said:


> Interesting to see it also called the Bowgun. I guess its a bow - and its a gun. Of course, when I call up Gun, no mention of a crossbow....


I bet if the crossbow were invented today, it would be called a bowgun or a string gun.

Think about it before you freak out ....We have grease guns, squirt guns, air guns, glue guns......

They're called that because they look similar and operate similarly (on some level) to a real gun ... meaning you hold it like a gun, or pull the trigger like a gun.


DougK said:


> I've heard dyed in the wool traditional archers call the compound a _string gun_


A crossbow is a string gun - hold it like a gun, aim it like a gun, pull the trigger like a gun.....but it shoots arrows. Much more like a gun than any compound.


----------



## cynic

thesource said:


> I bet if the crossbow were invented today, it would be called a bowgun or a string gun.
> 
> Think about it before you freak out ....We have grease guns, squirt guns, air guns, glue guns......
> 
> They're called that because they look similar and operate similarly (on some level) to a real gun ... meaning you hold it like a gun, or pull the trigger like a gun.
> 
> 
> A crossbow is a string gun - hold it like a gun, aim it like a gun, pull the trigger like a gun.....but it shoots arrows. Much more like a gun than any compound.


Yes, and we have the long bow recurve bow compound bow Crossbow
the name came from the fact it went from Verticle to horizontal. No matter when it was made or what you call it "It is still sticks and strings" made from the same materials as the compound.."man made" Alluminum alloy composites rubber grips, plastics, trigger releases and what "string". If it were invented today it would be just what it is a "crossbow"


----------



## cynic

Before anyone "freaks out" Source isn't shooting a compound the same as any other firearm. Hold the forearm/riser cock it and pull the trigger. New definition of compound: manually operated string rifle. Sorry for that but analogies are fun. Okay lets sat it is a gun. There is muzzleloader GUN season which does not allow crossbow/bowgun for anyone not handicapped or over 60. There is General gun season that does not allow crossbow/bowgun for anyone not handicapped or over 60. All we want is a place and time to use our xbow.


----------



## thesource

cynic said:


> Before anyone "freaks out" Source isn't shooting a compound the same as any other firearm. Hold the forearm/riser cock it and pull the trigger. New definition of compound: manually operated string rifle. Sorry for that but analogies are fun.


Give me a break .... if you cannot even admit the operational differences between a bow and a crossbow, how do you expect anyone to take you seriously?



cynic said:


> Okay lets sat it is a gun. There is muzzleloader GUN season which does not allow crossbow/bowgun for anyone not handicapped or over 60. There is General gun season that does not allow crossbow/bowgun for anyone not handicapped or over 60. All we want is a place and time to use our xbow.


You would get no arguement from me. A crossbow is a legitimate deer hunting tool that should be allowed somewhere. The arguement should not be IF a crossbow can be used, it should be WHEN a crossbow should be used. I agree with you that to exclude crossbow hunters from hunting is unfair.

I would point out, however, that when you make inflammatory and devisive statements like the following, you are not likely to win many to your cause.



cynic said:


> I see the only way that the anti-crossbow group could possibly have enough support is if they combine with the ranks of the anti-hunter groups.


----------



## cynic

SOURCE 
gun [ gun ] 


noun (plural guns) 

Definitions: 

1. weapon that fires bullets: any weapon, from a small handheld pistol to a large piece of artillery, that has a metal tube through which bullets or missiles are fired by an explosive charge


2. device that fires something: any tool or instrument that forces something out under pressure

This came from the MSN Encarta dictionary and we all know what a BOW is by definition no where did it mention looks. The interesting thing is definition (2). Doesn't all bows force the arrows out of them by the pressure of the string moving forward? Okay definitions have already been discussed so why is this coming up? Is this to initiate response for argueing moot points. Looking at it logically and say it is not a BOW but is not a GUN either and we are caught in the middle. Easy solution. Give us part of bow and part of gun. This would be a great COMPROMISE


----------



## cynic

thesource said:


> Give me a break .... if you cannot even admit the operational differences between a bow and a crossbow, how do you expect anyone to take you seriously?


I strictly did this to point out not matter what you call it, it is still a bow. You can say what ever you want and someone somewhere can pose an arguement as to why or why not. A compound operates differently from a traditional/ recurve but it is still a bow- a xbow uses the same technology and the only arguement is "you don't have to draw in the presence of game" but it is still a BOW.


----------



## thesource

cynic said:


> Looking at it logically and say it is not a BOW but is not a GUN either and we are caught in the middle.
> 
> Easy solution. Give us part of bow and part of gun. This would be a great COMPROMISE


I agree, that seems like a fair compromise....with the caveat that since I do not live in LA my opinion shouldn't and doesn't matter.

But let's focus on the first part of your response for a minute. If everyone could see your logic, that it is a hybrid instrument that is certainly not a gun but not simply another style of bow, we would not have this raging debate.

By demanding that it is just another bow, crossbow advocates are minimizing the importance of skills and experiences that vertical bowhunters have accumulated over years of bowhunting.


----------



## cynic

thesource said:


> By demanding that it is just another bow, crossbow advocates are minimizing the importance of skills and experiences that vertical bowhunters have accumulated over years of bowhunting.


PLEASE OH PLEASE do not start about skills and how much harder it is to use a verticle bow:wink: That dead horse is not in the race anymore.


----------



## thesource

cynic said:


> A compound operates differently from a traditional/ recurve but it is still a bow.


I disagree....it operates the same as a traditional bow, but the mechanical advantages it provides makes the fundamental process simpler.




cynic said:


> a xbow uses the same technology and the only arguement is "you don't have to draw in the presence of game" but it is still a BOW.


I disagree - the process of shooting a crossbow is fundamentally different than shooting a bow....and much more similar to shooting a gun.


----------



## cynic

Yes there are fundamental differences I choose to call it shooting technique.


----------



## TNUSA-1

There are several options for the introduction of the crossbow that would be acceptable for Louisiana hunters. Of course since I got reffered to the "Infernal Regions" by the BSBA, I have no intentions of compermise at this time. The Compermise quotes are still on their web site if they haven't erased it, so you can go there and see. Other wise as far as I'm conserned the goal is to put the Crossbow right in with the normal Archery season and allow the crossbow to hunt small game and fish as well. At the moment I'm not open for compermise.

Frankly I cant see what the problem is. I bow hunt all the time at Ft Polk, Peason Ridge and Clear Creek WMA and I hardly see anyone in the woods during bow season. I take bow hunters out, I usally drop them off 1/2 to a mile apart and there is no one inbetween. A few crossbow hunters wouldn't make much difference. By the way I have never seen a Crossbow hunter on a WMA, and only know 2 in my area, Guys over age 60. 

There were very few Gun hunters on Peason during the latter part of the season even on Doe Days. Pleaty of deer, my partner and I got a double.

The only time I see a few hunters is during Gun Season on weekends, then they come out. Go hunting Mon-friday and you dont see a sole, and that is anytime. On the average I hunt about everyother day and on weekends.

Most of your average hunters..including bowhunters..park on the side of the road, walk 50 yards into the woods and after about two hours come out complaining there are no deer and go home. If the woods were so full of deer that everybody could do that, we really would have an over population.

To me deer hunting shouldn't be that easy, thats what makes it a challenge. I hunt with all weapons, rifle, handgun, shotgun with buckshot, shotgun with slugs, Black Powder and a recurve bow. I want to use a crossbow just for fun, the same reason I use the other equipment. Now I have one other reason, some one told me I couldn't do it. Who the heck do you think you are?


----------



## progers

A gun is a weapon that expells a projectile by means of explosion. Source. you can arguee this all you want til your fingers are blue but, the fact of the matter is, a crossbow is a bow. Simply put, the projectile it shoots is known as an arrow. It uses limbs and a string to propell the projectile.

The funny thing is, I wrote Myth Busters a letter and asked them to prove that a crossbow was a gun and not a bow. Well, they replied with lots of laughs. They said a bow is a bow is a bow. There was nothing to prove. A crossbow is considered archery equipment. Hey, just look at all these states that are allowing the xbow to be used during archery season. Wow, wonder why? Probably because it is a freakin' BOW, no matter who argues it.


How is arguing that a crossbow is more like a gun bringing any facts to this debate. It isn't. 

Geeze source, a gun has a barrel, a receiver, a firing pin. Not all guns have a stock and a forearm, look at a pistol. A compound has a trigger. What do you thing a quick realease is.

a compound is nothing like a recurve and a crossbow is nothing like a compound. The "ballistics" of the crossbow is more similar to a compound than it is to a recurve or a gun. Source, it doesn't take years to master the compound. You can do it in a few days. 

Yall are arguing in circles that make no sense.


----------



## Jim C

The only people who spend time trying to call a crossbow something other than archery tackle are those who are operating from an outcome based idealogy-ie people who want to exclude crossbows and work backwards to find a reason to do so.

when limiting hunting tools is NOT the AGENDA, xbows are generally considered archery equipment. 

that is why the IRS treats xbows as archery
that is why the ATF doesn't cover xbows
that is why the NAA and the ATA consider xbows part of archery 

the fact is -its been proven WITH FACTS ad nauseum that 

1) xbows don't have any further range than compounds
2) xbows have a SLOWER rate of fire than compounds
3) both the average and best possible accuracy possible with crossbows is no better and often worse than compounds
4) Crossbows are NOISER than compound bows
5) ease of use is a bit higher for xbows but its effectiveness is no greater

given all of that again the only issue that ought to be debated is whether MORE or LESS bowhunters is a POSITIVE event


----------



## thesource

Cynic -

technique is more like wrist high, open stance, etc....

These are fundamental differences in the shooting process - and it is what makes bows and crossbows different (and bows physically more difficult.)


----------



## progers

Ok, we have firearms and archery equipment that we use to take game with. Which one does the crossbow fall under? Gee, let me think on that one!!!


Source, I guess next you will tell us that a mobile home is not a house, right?


----------



## Jim C

thesource said:


> Cynic -
> 
> technique is more like wrist high, open stance, etc....
> 
> These are fundamental differences in the shooting process - and it is what makes bows and crossbows different (and bows physically more difficult.)



so what? once again, we aren't competing against you in a target contest. as someone who has won titles with all three bows I find a compound and crossbow far closer than compounds and a bare recurve or longbow. ease of use isn't relevant-its efficiency and range. No one can prove that a crossbow has a longer effective range on live targets or more efficiency in harvesting game compared to a compound


----------



## progers

thesource said:


> Cynic -
> 
> technique is more like wrist high, open stance, etc....
> 
> These are fundamental differences in the shooting process - and it is what makes bows and crossbows different (and bows physically more difficult.)




SO!?! A recurve and long bow is physically more difficult than a compound. Why do you use it? Because it is easier! If crossbows aren't allowed because of a few things that make them a little easier then, a compound should be outlawed as well!


----------



## thesource

progers said:


> A gun is a weapon that expells a projectile by means of explosion.


Really? I guess air guns and pellet guns are mislabeled.




progers said:


> The funny thing is, I wrote Myth Busters a letter and asked them to prove that a crossbow was a gun and not a bow. Well, they replied with lots of laughs. They said a bow is a bow is a bow.


So Myth Busters is now the definitive source for defining hunting implements...nice to know.





progers said:


> Hey, just look at all these states that are allowing the xbow to be used during archery season. Wow, wonder why? Probably because it is a freakin' BOW, no matter who argues it.


Look at all the states that DON'T...and in fact, specify in the definitions that a crossbow is NOT a bow. Even Ohio has a separate definition for bow and crossbow.



progers said:


> a compound is nothing like a recurve and a crossbow is nothing like a compound. The "ballistics" of the crossbow is more similar to a compound than it is to a recurve or a gun. Source, it doesn't take years to master the compound. You can do it in a few days.



If you frame your debate solely in the realm of ballistics, you have a point. If you frame your debate solely from an operational standpoint, you are dead wrong. The truth lies in the middle somewhere.


----------



## thesource

Jim C said:


> 5) ease of use is a bit higher for xbows but its effectiveness is no greater



The latest VA data would contradict your opinion.


----------



## thesource

progers said:


> Source, I guess next you will tell us that a mobile home is not a house, right?


Technically - that is correct. Not the same....treated differently with respect to codes, insurance, etc....

Good example....thanks.


----------



## cynic

thesource said:


> Cynic -
> 
> technique is more like wrist high, open stance, etc....
> 
> These are fundamental differences in the shooting process - and it is what makes bows and crossbows different (and bows physically more difficult.)


Physically more challenging? You must not have seen me shooting my Mcpherson SDS compound using my teeth. Technique is simply what works best for each individual archer. Open stance  I shoot from my treestand sitting down. Each archer has a different technique. You will develope a different TECHNIQUE for each situation. All of this only serve to entice arguement and nothing more.


----------



## Jim C

No source-the truth lies in the fact that from a hunting standpoint, we classify weapons based on their range and extrapolated effect upon the herd, not how they are operated. You, and others who desire to limit more hunters operating in a season you think is overcrowded (or would be) struggle to find reasons to keep crossbows out so you gravitate towards "differences" that have no bottom line relevance to game departments or fair minded people. 

as I have noted for many many years-the compound and release eliminated the real proprietary skills that traditionally required the most time to develop.. Once that happened, the fixation on how bows are shot really became meaningless and its funny watching people try to call crossbows guns or firearms and if you don't believe this happens you just have to read the 3D thread where a couple excluders said that exact same thing


----------



## cynic

Source Gun as relevant in this cause and fact is gun/firearm as define by Gov. applicable to take game with. grip a little tigher and hang on


----------



## Jim C

thesource said:


> The latest VA data would contradict your opinion.


WOW, a NEW SEASON WITH NO HISTORY

unfortunately for you in 30 years no one familiar with Ohio is claiming that

lets see-thirty years with thousands upon thousands of hunters and a 6 figure harvest vs what -a new season with how many kills?


----------



## Jim C

cynic said:


> Physically more challenging? You must not have seen me shooting my Mcpherson SDS compound using my teeth. Technique is simply what works best for each individual archer. Open stance  I shoot from my treestand sitting down. Each archer has a different technique. You will develope a different TECHNIQUE for each situation. All of this only serve to entice arguement and nothing more.



good point-I previously bet source and his allies that I could hold their compound hunting bows at full draw steadier for a longer period of time than they could hold my crossbow standing aimed. Its easy to test-we used to put those cheap lasers that people put on pistols.

no one ever challenged me on that one

(I don't make bets that I know I can't win :wink: )


----------



## thesource

Jim C said:


> No one can prove that a crossbow has a longer effective range on live targets or more efficiency in harvesting game compared to a compound


To the first point - longer effective range. You are right, you can't prove or disprove this. You can address it logically - a. 3" groups at 50 yds with a crossbow are likely to be more effective than 6" groups with a compound, and b. Most hunters have a higher probability of acheiving a 3"@50yds with a crossbow than they are to shoot a 6"group with a compound, a+b=c.


To the second point - efficiency. To understand efficiency, you would have to have a measure of harvest/hour hunted, stratified by implement and experience (at a minimum...ideally we would stratify by other factors as well).

If you can find that data, I will be happy to statistically analyze it, step by step on this message board, for all to see.


----------



## progers

thesource said:


> Technically - that is correct. Not the same....treated differently with respect to codes, insurance, etc....
> 
> Good example....thanks.


so, a trailer house is not built of wood, walls, roof, a floor, has plumbing and electrical and doors and windows, a kitchen, bathroom, bedrooms, closets and so forth. Yes, I can see your point that a trailer is not a house. It is so clear because people don't live in either. 

Oh, they have a different type of insurance policy, that is right. Well, they are 99% the same.


----------



## progers

thesource said:


> To the first point - longer effective range. You are right, you can't prove or disprove this. You can address it logically - a. 3" groups at 50 yds with a crossbow are likely to be more effective than 6" groups with a compound, and b. Most hunters have a higher probability of acheiving a 3"@50yds with a crossbow than they are to shoot a 6"group with a compound, a+b=c.
> 
> 
> To the second point - efficiency. To understand efficiency, you would have to have a measure of harvest/hour hunted, stratified by implement and experience (at a minimum...ideally we would stratify by other factors as well).
> 
> If you can find that data, I will be happy to statistically analyze it, step by step on this message board, for all to see.



How about YOU look up the data. We would like for you to provide some facts instead of pushing arguments about "opinions". There is a project for ya today! 

Number of harvest hours is affected mainly by weather. I guess now the crossbow makes the deer move?


----------



## thesource

cynic said:


> Physically more challenging? You must not have seen me shooting my Mcpherson SDS compound using my teeth. Technique is simply what works best for each individual archer. Open stance  I shoot from my treestand sitting down. Each archer has a different technique. You will develope a different TECHNIQUE for each situation. All of this only serve to entice arguement and nothing more.


I agree - all examples of technique. Technique does not explain the fundamental operational differences - quit squirming and admit it.

Physically more challenging - means what it says. The PHYSICS of shooting a bow are more challenging than a crossbow. Not open for debate - multiplane sighting, externally affected ballistically - you really can't argue that.


----------



## cynic

thesource said:


> To the first point - longer effective range. You are right, you can't prove or disprove this. You can address it logically - a. 3" groups at 50 yds with a crossbow are likely to be more effective than 6" groups with a compound, and b. Most hunters have a higher probability of acheiving a 3"@50yds with a crossbow than they are to shoot a 6"group with a compound, a+b=c.
> 
> 
> To the second point - efficiency. To understand efficiency, you would have to have a measure of harvest/hour hunted, stratified by implement and experience (at a minimum...ideally we would stratify by other factors as well).
> 
> If you can find that data, I will be happy to statistically analyze it, step by step on this message board, for all to see.


And while doing this please FACTOR THE SKILL OF LUCK. Which after all these years I still have not been able to master.


----------



## Jim C

thesource said:


> To the first point - longer effective range. You are right, you can't prove or disprove this. You can address it logically - a. 3" groups at 50 yds with a crossbow are likely to be more effective than 6" groups with a compound, and b. Most hunters have a higher probability of acheiving a 3"@50yds with a crossbow than they are to shoot a 6"group with a compound, a+b=c.
> 
> 
> To the second point - efficiency. To understand efficiency, you would have to have a measure of harvest/hour hunted, stratified by implement and experience (at a minimum...ideally we would stratify by other factors as well).
> 
> If you can find that data, I will be happy to statistically analyze it, step by step on this message board, for all to see.


now if xbows were more accurate than compound bows you would expect tournament data to support it even though tournament scores involve sophisticated target crossbows while the bows and releases used in competition are basically the same as in hunting yet the vegas results have never seen a clean crossbow score. The same is true in 3D competition so your claim that crossbows are more accurate at 50 yards is both a lie and ignores the fact that NOISE is not a factor in a target shoot-with live game it is

the bottom line is that in Ohio, no one has ever seen anything that would lead objective minded people to believe that xbow archers are killing deer at rates higher than compound archers and if there are any differences, they are not relevant enough to treat the two kinds of bows differently


----------



## thesource

Jim C said:


> good point-I previously bet source and his allies that I could hold their compound hunting bows at full draw steadier for a longer period of time than they could hold my crossbow standing aimed. Its easy to test-we used to put those cheap lasers that people put on pistols.
> 
> no one ever challenged me on that one
> 
> (I don't make bets that I know I can't win :wink: )


That's not true - we agreed that you couldn't even pull back my Mirage and then we let this drop


----------



## Jim C

thesource said:


> I agree - all examples of technique. Technique does not explain the fundamental operational differences - quit squirming and admit it.
> 
> Physically more challenging - means what it says. The PHYSICS of shooting a bow are more challenging than a crossbow. Not open for debate - multiplane sighting, externally affected ballistically - you really can't argue that.


again so what? that has no relevance to hunting any more than saying semi auto rifles ought to be treated differently than a bolt action rifle.


----------



## Jim C

thesource said:


> That's not true - we agreed that you couldn't even pull back my Mirage and then we let this drop



My shoulder gets better by the day.


----------



## cynic

thesource said:


> I agree - all examples of technique. Technique does not explain the fundamental operational differences - quit squirming and admit it.
> 
> Physically more challenging - means what it says. The PHYSICS of shooting a bow are more challenging than a crossbow. Not open for debate - multiplane sighting, externally affected ballistically - you really can't argue that.


I don't have to squirm. Please go get a crossbow and try to shoot it one handed accurately. All of this on your partt is an attempt to envoke flaming and have this locked ---admit it----You have nothing constructive to add either way


----------



## thesource

Jim C said:


> now if xbows were more accurate than compound bows you would expect tournament data to support it even though tournament scores involve sophisticated target crossbows while the bows and releases used in competition are basically the same as in hunting yet the vegas results have never seen a clean crossbow score. The same is true in 3D competition so your claim that crossbows are more accurate at 50 yards is both a lie and ignores the fact that NOISE is not a factor in a target shoot-with live game it is
> 
> the bottom line is that in Ohio, no one has ever seen anything that would lead objective minded people to believe that xbow archers are killing deer at rates higher than compound archers and if there are any differences, they are not relevant enough to treat the two kinds of bows differently



You consistently try to elevate this to comparisons at the highest level of competition.

That isn't real life.

Focus your logic at the hunting level, and the common man's accuracy with bow or crossbow.

Are you suggesting that "everyman" is as good at shooting as you?


----------



## thesource

Jim C said:


> My shoulder gets better by the day.


Glad to hear it.


----------



## thesource

Jim C said:


> again so what? that has no relevance to hunting any more than saying semi auto rifles ought to be treated differently than a bolt action rifle.


How is comparing two action styles similar to comparing a bow vs crossbow?

A more accurate comparison (and still far from perfect) is to compare the accuracy of a scoped rifle vs ian ron sighted rifle. The impact of two plane sighting should be pretty clear with this frame of reference, for example.


----------



## progers

thesource said:


> You consistently try to elevate this to comparisons at the highest level of competition.
> 
> That isn't real life.
> 
> Focus your logic at the hunting level, and the common man's accuracy with bow or crossbow.
> 
> Are you suggesting that "everyman" is as good at shooting as you?



Would you be suggesting that just because someone buys a compound to hunt with practice every day or very often, for that matter, to the point to where they are the best they can be and they not miss or wound deer?

Just because people buy a compound don't mean that they put the practice time in. Some will simply go out and "fling arrows" at deer. They can because they bought a compound. So, with that being said, if a crossbow will help them out just a little with accuracy, as you say it does, why sould you have a problem with them using a crossbow instead of a compound? Would you prefer that they keep dragging the compound around and missing and wounding deer?


----------



## thesource

cynic said:


> All of this on your partt is an attempt to envoke flaming and have this locked ---admit it----You have nothing constructive to add either way



I think that is unfair.

Whenever I bring physics or statistics into the conversation, you all back away.

Do we really want to examine the data, or do we want one big nodding head that ignores anything contrary to our belief system, regardless of the relevance?

I think the cry for facts is a giant farce - you all want to hear what you want to hear, facts and data be damned.


----------



## cynic

thesource said:


> How is comparing two action styles similar to comparing a bow vs crossbow?
> 
> A more accurate comparison (and still far from perfect) is to compare the accuracy of a scoped rifle vs ian ron sighted rifle. The impact of two plane sighting should be pretty clear with this frame of reference, for example.


The scope does not make the rifle any more or less accurate. Only the shooter. the same can be said for compounds sight vs no sight which is more accurate?


----------



## thesource

progers said:


> why sould you have a problem with them using a crossbow instead of a compound?
> 
> Would you prefer that they keep dragging the compound around and missing and wounding deer?


I would prefer that they do the ethically responsible thing and refrain from hunting with their bow until they become proficient.

I do not agree that poor shooting with a compound is a good reason to bring crossbows into bow season. If your metric is overall lethality, then extending that logic - crossbows replace compounds, MZ replace crossbows, rifles replace MZ.


----------



## progers

thesource said:


> I think that is unfair.
> 
> Whenever I bring physics or statistics into the conversation, you all back away.
> 
> Do we really want to examine the data, or do we want one big nodding head that ignores anything contrary to our belief system, regardless of the relevance?
> 
> I think the cry for facts is a giant farce - you all want to hear what you want to hear, facts and data be damned.



What data did you bring? What statistics did you bring? You barely touched on physics. You were teling us to go look the date up for you. 

Like I said, YOU go look up the data, bring all that info back here and then everyone can review it. But, you won't do that. You have presented NO FACTS, just opinions.

When you can bring some facts then, I will discuss them with you. I'm not going to get into the "thread lock" tactics with you.

What cynic said WAS fair.


----------



## thesource

cynic said:


> The scope does not make the rifle any more or less accurate. Only the shooter. the same can be said for compounds sight vs no sight which is more accurate?


Come on now.

We are talking about practical accuracy - the ability to harness the inherent accuracy of your weapon. (By the way - the shooter cannot make a rifle "more accurate", either).

We are talking about the precision and effectiveness of the system. You can admit this, or I can issue a JimC like challenge where you (iron sights) and I (scope)shoot the same rifle of the bench at 100. 200. 300, 400 yards and compare group sizes.


----------



## progers

NOTICE: SOURCE, THIS DEBATE IS ABOUT INTRODUCING THE CROSSBOW TO LOUISIANA FOR THE HUNTING OF WILDLIFE, PERIOD. REGULATIONS WILL BE DECIDED ANOTHER DAY. THIS DEBATE IS NOT ABOUT TRYING TO GET CROSSBOWS INTO BOW SEASON. IT IS ABOUT THE USE OF IT WHILE HUNTING, PERIOD! PLEASE, STAY ON TOPIC.

Now, if you have proof or facts on why the crossbow should not be introduced to hunt game then, you really don't have much to say here.


----------



## thesource

progers said:


> What data did you bring? What statistics did you bring? You barely touched on physics. You were teling us to go look the date up for you.
> 
> Like I said, YOU go look up the data, bring all that info back here and then everyone can review it. But, you won't do that. You have presented NO FACTS, just opinions.
> 
> When you can bring some facts then, I will discuss them with you. I'm not going to get into the "thread lock" tactics with you.
> 
> What cynic said WAS fair.


Check out posts around 151 or so. Then - apologize and stop hounding me....you haven't stated anything remotely close to a fact in 2 pages.

Like I said - if I could find harvest/hunter hr data, I would. I presented what it would take to get an accurate picture of bow vs crossbow harvest rates.

If you say they're the same without the additional information I'm asking for - then you are not citing a fact, you are perpetuating a lie (at best a half truth.)

Sometimes, what is presented as fact is anything but.


----------



## cynic

thesource said:


> I think that is unfair.
> 
> Whenever I bring physics or statistics into the conversation, you all back away.
> 
> Do we really want to examine the data, or do we want one big nodding head that ignores anything contrary to our belief system, regardless of the relevance?
> 
> I think the cry for facts is a giant farce - you all want to hear what you want to hear, facts and data be damned.


I'm still waiting for FACTS and/or statistics. Yes we really want to examine the data from BOTH sides. We are not going on belief we have compiled many FACTS and STATISTICS. We anxiously await the FACT/STATISTICS from the opposition in order analize for better decision making capabilities.


----------



## thesource

progers said:


> NOTICE: SOURCE, THIS DEBATE IS ABOUT INTRODUCING THE CROSSBOW TO LOUISIANA FOR THE HUNTING OF WILDLIFE, PERIOD. REGULATIONS WILL BE DECIDED ANOTHER DAY. THIS DEBATE IS NOT ABOUT TRYING TO GET CROSSBOWS INTO BOW SEASON. IT IS ABOUT THE USE OF IT WHILE HUNTING, PERIOD! PLEASE, STAY ON TOPIC.
> 
> Now, if you have proof or facts on why the crossbow should not be introduced to hunt game then, you really don't have much to say here.


PROGERS -

THEN WE ARE IN RAGING AGREEMENT AND WHY ARE ALL OF YOU GUYS ARGUING WITH ME?

I've already said I believe the crossbow deserves a season. Why are you jumping in my @$$.


----------



## cynic

thesource said:


> I've already said I believe the crossbow deserves a season. Why are you jumping in my @$$.


Then stop argueing stupidly and help make it happen


----------



## thesource

cynic said:


> Then stop argueing stupidly and help make it happen


I was waiting for you to stop argueing stupidly - lol.


----------



## progers

thesource said:


> I think your facts are mistaken.
> 
> OH has 400,000 gun hunters and 200,000 "archery" hunters.
> 
> Assuming you were right. 20% of 400,000 = 80,000 gun hunters who bowhunt, meaning that 120,000 "archers" in OH ONLY hunt with a bow or crossbow and never use a gun.
> 
> 
> That's not right.
> 
> As far as your first point - let's take NY numbers, let's say 2002 ish.
> 
> 200,000 bowhunters. 700,000 gun hunters. That's 500,000 potential gun hunters who can't be bothered to learn to bowhunt who may be inclined to use a crossbow if it were legal. How can you have "no idea where this notion of more gun hunters will be in the woods using a crossbow." ?



WOW! What does this have to do with Louisiana.? Ohio has the same amount of bowhunters as we do gunhunters. With that being said, even if ALL the gun hunters of louisiana picked up a crossbow then, it shouldn't hurt anything. Each are still allowed 6 deer a year and you can't change that. It doesn't matter how you take them, just as long as you stay within the seasonal bag limit.

We have pulled crossbow surveys that point that only a small percentage of gun hunters actually will pick up a crossbow. And besides, Ohio is legal for them to use the crossbow. So, if you're thinking was correct, Ohio should have 700,000 bowhunters, right?

I apologize for nothing. 



Ok, so you have admitted that crossbows should be allowed in hunting season. There is nothing else to debate about. 

We are arguing with you just as much as you are arguing with us. I belive that you were the one that started the arguement so, tha would put YOU juming our @$$ as you so politely put it.



If you want to start a debate on wether or not the crossbow should be legalized for bow season in Louisiana, please, feel free to start another thread.


----------



## thesource

progers said:


> . I belive that you were the one that started the arguement so, tha would put YOU juming our @$$ as you so politely put it.


Eek ... that sounds mature.

Actually, Cynic and I were wrapping up a debate on fundamental differences in the operation of bows and crossbows (and how that might infer what season they belong in) when you interfered and had to add your 2 cents.

Don't worry - Its SuperBowl Sunday, and I have better things to do than argue about xbows all day. I'm outtie.


----------



## cynic

thesource said:


> I was waiting for you to stop argueing stupidly - lol.


 Okay, since we are of the same belief that the xbow deserves its place. Will you help negotiate a compromise?


----------



## progers

thesource said:


> PROGERS -
> 
> THEN WE ARE IN RAGING AGREEMENT AND WHY ARE ALL OF YOU GUYS ARGUING WITH ME?
> 
> I've already said I believe the crossbow deserves a season. Why are you jumping in my @$$.



I completely agree. We are in agreement that the crossbow should be allowed to be used in harvesting game. 

The regulations will have to be decided another day AFTER we get this bill legalized, if it is legalized. 

It is our opinions on what the regulations should be and, we are staying away from opinions about the regulations at this time. There will be time for that later this year.

Thank You


----------



## progers

thesource said:


> Eek ... that sounds mature.



Sounded just as MATURE as when you said it, huh BRO?!? :wink:


I believe that we ALL got off topic this morning! Happy Superbowl Suday!


----------



## cynic

If you think emotions were high this morning just wait til there team loses the super bowl......


----------



## progers

cynic said:


> If you think emotions were high this morning just wait til there team loses the super bowl......



I'm pulling for the Steelers! :beer:


----------



## TNUSA-1

Well they dont like me over at Bayou State Bowmen Assn forum anymore But im not alone. They dont like Doctari either:sad: Frankly I think Doctari did a good job  So to celibrate this wonderous occation I'm taking my pretty wife out for our 23rd wedding anniversery.:cocktail: 

I'd like to thank all the debators and fact finders and the moderator for putting up with all this, this goes for both sides because when the dust clears we are all still going hunting one way or another. At this point we may as well let the people decide, the petitions are going out. The legislators are ready....What more can we say? I know more about crossbows than I ever did and now I really want to try one....dont you ...Pass it on.

If you want to write a letter of support for the crossbows.:beer: 
[email protected]


----------



## Jim C

thesource said:


> You consistently try to elevate this to comparisons at the highest level of competition.
> 
> That isn't real life.
> 
> Focus your logic at the hunting level, and the common man's accuracy with bow or crossbow.
> 
> Are you suggesting that "everyman" is as good at shooting as you?



the point that you seem to have missed so many times is that if WORLD CLASS xbow archers using 2000 dollar target rigs with triggers that aren't much heavier than stuff seen on OLYMPIC airguns CANNOT outshoot guys using BOWHUNTER FREESTYLE (pins, short stabilizers etc) Compounds (Perry Harpering's world record with a pin sighted bowhunter class compound bow has never been equalled by a crossbow shooter in the USA) then xbows featuring 4-5 pound trigger hunting rigs sure as heck aren't more accurate than the same compounds.

You see Source-the compound bow I hunt with and the release I use is the same I shoot target with. The crossbow I compete with is far easier to shoot accurately than my hunting rig


----------



## Jim C

DougK said:


> Jim,
> 
> of course he missed it. Those who are against xbows know nothing about them and rely on what they "think" rather than actual "hands on" experience.
> 
> He cannot relate to what you are saying...and has been said *MANY* times before.


one of the issues that many of those unlearned of crossbows miss is the learning curve. I have been shooting a recurve (until my surgery in september) almost daily for ten years-I am still learning stuff and now its a conflict between knowing more vs physical problems

With a compound-that learning curve stopped after a couple years-I am sure if I kept training a couple hours a day I would have gotten a bit better mentally but in terms of form it was set-I was shooting 300- mid 50 x counts within a year of shooting a compound seriously ( had several years of recurve shooting as a kid-maybe 6 months of real coaching). Now with a crossbow, with my hunting background with one and extensive training (500 shots a week under the watchful eye of a father who was a varsity collegiate rifle shooter at Miami and Yale Universities) in air rifle I was as good as I was going to get fairly quickly with a crossbow (though I have learned to read the wind better over the 7 years I have shot one)

the bottom line is my first month of shooting any bow-I did the best with a crossbow but then again I had years of training that was easily translated to it. Most guys who start hunting with an xbow have that and that shortens the learning curve. However, within a month of shooting a compound I was shooting as well with it as my crossbow and after a year I was shooting HIGHER scores with my compound vs my crossbow.

what upsets certain people is that the time cost to master a crossbow is less than a compound-especially with so many of us who have an extensive rifle background. However, to think that a crossbow gives you and advantage over supposed hard practicing compound hunters is a joke. A crossbow gives a novice with it an advantage over a novice with a compound. that's it period


----------



## doctariAFC

TNUSA-1 said:


> Well they dont like me over at Bayou State Bowmen Assn forum anymore But im not alone. They dont like Doctari either:sad: Frankly I think Doctari did a good job  So to celibrate this wonderous occation I'm taking my pretty wife out for our 23rd wedding anniversery.:cocktail:
> 
> I'd like to thank all the debators and fact finders and the moderator for putting up with all this, this goes for both sides because when the dust clears we are all still going hunting one way or another. At this point we may as well let the people decide, the petitions are going out. The legislators are ready....What more can we say? I know more about crossbows than I ever did and now I really want to try one....dont you ...Pass it on.
> 
> If you want to write a letter of support for the crossbows.:beer:
> [email protected]


Hey, thanks for the support and comments on this debate. If BSBA doesn't like me for being fair and not shutting down the debate to quaff discussion, so be it. If they do not like the debate focusing on facts, so be it. THey are always welcome to join in, I have had to take very, very few administrative actions, which is a testament to folks we have participating, on both sides of the issue.

I also believe through this debate we have become a more informed group, regardless of position. Becoming a more informed group is critical to better defeding our rights and heritage. Keep it up....


----------



## progers

*I ain't hidin' from nobody...*

Well, a few of us from our side went to the BSBA site to try and negotiate something with the members of the BSBA. We went out of our way to be respectful to them. We even used a topic they had already started about CROSSBOWS there at the BSBA forum. Shane Crochet, Kenny Borel, PMantle and a few other members had been replying to this "crossbow" topic at the BSBA since: 



> Shane Crochet
> Association Director/Moderator
> 
> 
> Joined: 05 May 2004
> Posts: 384
> Location: Ventress
> Posted: Thu May 05, 2005 9:30 pm Post subject: CROSSBOW AND DRAWLOC





> PMantle
> 
> 
> 
> Joined: 26 Jan 2006
> Posts: 3
> Location: Alexandria, La.
> Posted: Mon Jan 30, 2006 11:58 am Post subject:
> 
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> The thread about La. crossbows at Archerytalk has been locked. Looks like the biased moderator had enough of the pro crossbow arguments getting thrashed.





> Kenny Borel
> Bowhunting Director/Administrator
> 
> 
> Joined: 05 May 2004
> Posts: 370
> Location: New Iberia, La
> Posted: Tue Jan 31, 2006 6:28 pm Post subject:
> 
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> The moderator is definately BIASED
> _________________
> >>>>-------Kenny Borel---------->
> Bowhunting Director/Forum Administrator




So, we replied to this topic asking them to give us an "official" statement on their behalf about the BSBA's views on crossbows for the overall hunting population in every season *excluding* archery season for the crossbow.




> John I politely ask that you not continue to post crossbow nor drawloc comments on our website. You know how this organization stands on the topic and we are not going to entertain your comments about this issue. Anymore and we will pull the post.
> 
> Thanks, Shane Crochet
> BSBA Association Director




Of course, they avoided the question and started bragging about what they do for the state then, demanded that we reply with efforts we had made in support of wildlife and hunting. 

Apparently our list embarrassed them as right after that, we were banned. the reason given was: 



> Shane Crochet
> Association Director/Moderator
> 
> 
> Joined: 05 May 2004
> Posts: 384
> Location: Ventress
> Posted: Mon Feb 06, 2006 7:33 pm Post subject:
> 
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> Paul & company. I have asked you politely to stop bringing up crossbow topics on our website. But you continue to bring up these topics and issues that I have asked you not to post. You give us no choice, but to pull the threads and ban you from our website. Thanks
> 
> Shane Crochet



So folks, there you have it. We were banned by the BSBA for discussing "crossbows" in a "crossbow" topic that the BSBA had started at their site. Only THEY are allowed to talk about crossbows. Nobody else has the right to. 


We had 2 guys that were banned that never made a post. 

Isn't that something. You would think that these guys would want to negotiate but, they will now. They have made it CLEAR that they are against ANY and ALL people (with the exception of seniors and handicap using xbows to only hunt whitetails) using the crossbow during any season for any type of game in the State of Louisiana.



Announcement: 

After futher review of all the info and facts here:

*I see no reason of any kind WHY crossbows should NOT be allowed for ANY and ALL people during archery, MZl and firearm seasons for *whitetails* in the State of Louisiana. 

*I see no reason of any kind WHY crossbows should NOT be allowed for ANY and ALL people to be used to hunt *small game* in Louisiana. 

*I see no reason of any kind WHY crossbows should NOT be allowed for ANY and ALL people to be used to hunt any other *big game* in the State of Louisiana.

*I see no reason of any kind WHY crossbows should NOT be allowed for ANY and ALL people to be used to hunt any and all *predators* in the State of Louisiana. 

*I see no reason of any kind WHY crossbows should NOT be allowed for ANY and ALL people to be used to *bowfish* in the State of Louisiana.

The crossbow deserves to be included in all hunting seasons. We vow to fight this issue for as many years and as long as it takes to get crossbow hunting rights given to the deserving people of Louisiana.

We will NOT run and hide. We will be in Baton Rouge soon.

Thanks for the support of all the good people here and at TNUSA for allowing these debates. We need more people like you who seek the truth and not hide behind lies and prejudice.

Have a good day! 
Paul Rogers
Bayou Outdoors Adventures
[email protected]


----------



## progers

> We had 2 guys that were banned that never made a post.



I stand corrected. Since I made this post, they unbanned the 2 guys that I was talking about.


----------



## progers

Here is an email where the Association Director of BSBA, Shane Crochet, returned an email from me about concerns of certain members of the BSBA being prejudice and disrespectful to other fellow hunters. I was told by Shane that he had spoken with some of the members of BSBA. (Please take note of bold area.) 





> Paul,
> 
> You will always get respect from me. It is how I am. I am in the process of doing a mail out and email survey for our members(mail for the ones that don't have an email address). I will promise you as soon as I have the results I will get them to you. Should probably be in the next couple of weeks.
> 
> This is how this association works. We survey our membership every year about different topics. From crossbows to ages of hunters to wma information. Every year I give the results to LDWF. Sometimes they use our input on things and sometimes they don't. But they know where we stand on issues.
> 
> *I have warned some of our members as well as some of our board members about how they treat other sportsman and how they represent themselves.* I can not control everyone, I think you know that. From what I have seen only a couple of BSBA members have commented alot of the other people are not members.
> 
> As far as you posting on our website, you can post all you want just please post no more crossbow arguements. Please!!
> 
> Thanks,
> Shane Crochet
> smcrochet @bellsouth.net


----------



## willie

> So folks, there you have it. We were banned by the BSBA for discussing "crossbows" in a "crossbow" topic that the BSBA had started at their site. Only THEY are allowed to talk about crossbows. Nobody else has the right to.


Hmmm.. that is par for the course.

We had the same thing happen at Bowsite.

Pat and company could bash to who laid the rail but when Jim C, myself and few other pro-crossbow folks got on there it was almost immediately -"You cant discuss crossbows on here".

First came "re-registering". Every time I got on there I had to re-register.

Then Jim and my posts all dissappeared. The anti-posts stayed up.

then whole crossbow threads went bye-bye.

Then Jim and I were banned.

*"The truth? You couldn't stand the truth". * "YOU" is bowsite and the BSBA.


----------



## progers

I can believe it Willie. They have locked their site down even from all guests. Something is going on over there and they don't want anyone to see what it is!


Hey, I'm going to buy stock in crossbows Bud! :wink: :beer:


----------



## Jim C

when a free exchange of ideas takes place the anti crossbow side always loses. The BowSite was particularly funny-Pat Lefemene the owner of BowSite launched a Jihad against crossbows with a braindead bigoted editorial against xbows. For several months, it was a me too piling on but then a few of us brought some education to the place only to see Pat decide that his lies couldn't handle an onslaught of truth

of course when you have a website that posts stuff like xbows at 300 FPS shoot at almost twice the speed as most compounds, truth and facts are in short supply there. willy put a serious whippin on those guys :wink:


----------



## doctariAFC

This is the reason why we should discuss the facts. I am kind of surprised (but not really) at the anti-crossbow side and their complete and utter lack of facts being presented. I am rather saddened by this, as if some facts from the other side of the debate were to be presented, we may all have the chance to learn something new. Alas, this has not been the case, indeed, quite the opposite. We have been told no facts exist. Yet, Progers has provided many, many facts and has contributed mightily to the outdoors community in providing such information for us to review and discuss. 

Let's discuss these facts that have been presented, and try to remain professional, keeping the sniping and name calling out of the discussion. As has always been the case, anyone is invited to join this debate, provided the rules are adhered to. If you wish to make an argument, for or against, please back up your statement with some documented facts. This is a learning process for all of us here, to get educated on the rather voluminous information which states have compiled through research and surveys. As everyone has witnessed, I give fair opportunity for all who follow the rules of this debate. And I thank all of you for doing so in large part.


----------



## PMantle

Jim C said:


> when a free exchange of ideas takes place the anti crossbow side always loses.
> 
> 
> 
> You're entitled to your opinion, but not only is that not a fact, it's dead wrong. There is not one objective argument supporting the use of a crossbow in an archery season.
> 
> See, I can say it too. It's meaningless. There are no facts from the State of Louisiana that will support crossbow use in the archery season. Even you agree crossbows will increase hunters hunting deer, and that increase will come from the gun hunting population who have a very LIBERAL season in this State. Comparing La. with States that have a short gun season is just not a good comparo.
> 
> No one supporting crossbow use will answer questions posed about the use of them. You guys either ignore them, or call them statements, which quite frankly, should embarrass the heck out of you guys. This pat on the back fest is pretty disgusting considering what is proposed is a change to existing law. Opposition should be tolerated on the same level as support in such a circumstance. You guys act like people want a current method banned, and that's simply not the case.
Click to expand...


----------



## Jim C

Post a question-I will answer it. OBJECTIVE REASONS

1) every reason advanced in support of allowing compounds in applies equally to crossbows

2) there are people who want to use crossbows-that is an objective reason


----------



## PMantle

Jim C said:


> Post a question-I will answer it. OBJECTIVE REASONS
> 
> 1) every reason advanced in support of allowing compounds in applies equally to crossbows
> 
> 2) there are people who want to use crossbows-that is an objective reason



What do you believe the facts presented thus far mean? Is La. losing bowhunters? If so, why is it do you think? Do you think guys are successful at the sport, then just quit? If they are successful archers but quit, why would a crossbow bring them back? If they are not successful and quit, and the crossbow is no easier to shoot than a compound, then why would the quitter come back to use a weapon no easier or more effective than the one that made them leave?


----------



## doctariAFC

PMantle said:


> What do you believe the facts presented thus far mean? Is La. losing bowhunters? If so, why is it do you think? Do you think guys are successful at the sport, then just quit? If they are successful archers but quit, why would a crossbow bring them back? If they are not successful and quit, and the crossbow is no easier to shoot than a compound, then why would the quitter come back to use a weapon no easier or more effective than the one that made them leave?


Thus far, the facts presented support the following:

1 - bowhunting is dropping in LA, despite longer seasons and the ability to harvest deer of either sex.
2 - This is related to aging hunters and a lack of effective youth recruitment as evidenced by the apparent replacement hunter rate.
3 - Crossbows have proven to be an effective draw for hunters interested in archery.
4 - Crossbows do NOT cause a sudden mass influx of gun hunters suddenly taking up bowhunting. The facts clearly illustrate older hunters (age 50-60) young hunters and women hunters benefit most from crossbow use. SOme firearms hunters will also be attracted, just like some firearms hunters are attracted to the compound bow.
5 - Harvest rates for both crossbow and compound bow seem pretty close. One state, OH, shows crossbows outperform compound bows, another State, Arkansas, shows compound hunters outperform crossbow hunters.
6 - All facts presented clearly indicate zero adverse affects to deer herd numbers and health.

That is what the facts have clearly proven thus far. What would be beneficial to the anti-side of the debate is to start presenting the facts that would bolster your side. Making statements without back up is whistling dixie, IMO, and certainly does not accomplish anything but to drive a wedge between your organization and hunters. When back up is provided, it makes all of us sit up and learn something new. Rather, the anti-side has claimed mightily that no facts exist. Clearly this has been debunked, in spades. 

The bottom line is this, Pmantle, and all other who are on the anti-side of the issue. Legislators and the legislative process follows a specific path and procedure. Proposed changes, when facts are brought up supporting the changes, are given far more weight than simply making statements, despite having some signatures on a petition. Petitions can be slanted based on whom they are distributed to. This is a reality not lost on legislators. This is why they will base their decisions in fact. According to the legislative process, any law may be drafted and presented, and if a demand for this legislation exists (and demand exists in LA) and the proposal will not cause undue danger or harm to, in this case, wildlife and hunting in LA (the facts prove this move would benefit hunting, with no adverse affects on the health of wildlife), then the case has been effectively made, using facts.

Regardless of how this shakes out in LA, I do believe other states are adopting crossbows at a pretty significant pace. PLaces like Kentucky, Georgia, Florida Virginia, etc., have all allowed crossbows as another implement choice, and positives have resulted.

Now, if the BSBA is opposed to crossbows, start working on your facts, not your opinions. We already know your opinions. What you truly need are facts to back the opinions up. Of course, you may be right when you stated "no facts exist". The caveat would be "no facts exist to support your position." I somehow doubt that to be true. Somewhere there must exist some facts to support your opinions. Find them and present them. You quite frankly have a juggernaut staring at you (the crossbow movement) and simply digging your heels in without facts to buttress your position will result in the same things as has happened in KY, GA, FL and VA.

Please, find some facts....


----------



## twogun

PMantle said:


> Jim C said:
> 
> 
> 
> when a free exchange of ideas takes place the anti crossbow side always loses.
> 
> 
> 
> You're entitled to your opinion, but not only is that not a fact, it's dead wrong. *There is not one objective argument supporting the use of a crossbow in an archery season.*
> 
> See, I can say it too. It's meaningless. *There are no facts from the State of Louisiana that will support crossbow use in the archery season.* Even you agree crossbows will increase hunters hunting deer, and that increase will come from the gun hunting population who have a very LIBERAL season in this State. Comparing La. with States that have a short gun season is just not a good comparo.
> 
> No one supporting crossbow use will answer questions posed about the use of them. You guys either ignore them, or call them statements, which quite frankly, should embarrass the heck out of you guys. This pat on the back fest is pretty disgusting considering what is proposed is a change to existing law. Opposition should be tolerated on the same level as support in such a circumstance. You guys act like people want a current method banned, and that's simply not the case.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sorry I'm late to the party.
> 
> I'm in favor of crossbow use and will answer any questions you want to ask. Fire away.
> 
> Concerning the highlighted statements above:
> 
> I suppose that we could use the same "objective facts" that warranted the inclusion of compound bows and for that matter the creation of an archery season to begin with. From what I know, these things happened because people wanted them to. Unless a negetive impact can be shown from a conservation perspective, there is no reason to not allow them. Crossbows increase hunter freedoms, choices, and opportunities.
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...


----------



## PMantle

doctariAFC said:


> Thus far, the facts presented support the following:
> 
> 1 - bowhunting is dropping in LA, despite longer seasons and the ability to harvest deer of either sex.
> 2 - This is related to aging hunters and a lack of effective youth recruitment as evidenced by the apparent replacement hunter rate.
> 3 - Crossbows have proven to be an effective draw for hunters interested in archery.
> 4 - The facts clearly illustrate older hunters (age 50-60) young hunters and women hunters benefit most from crossbow use.
> 
> 
> 
> 1. I have not seen where there are sufficient numbers to say this is a correct statement. I am not saying it is incorrect, just not provable with the way things are counted right now.
> 
> 2. Assumption not based upon fact.
> 
> 3. Substitute the word crossbow for archery, and I agree with you. Do you have any facts that would support the notion that the crossbow is a gateway weapon for other weapons?
> 
> 4. Why is it do you think? I would love to see more development of that issue.
Click to expand...


----------



## doctariAFC

PMantle said:


> doctariAFC said:
> 
> 
> 
> Thus far, the facts presented support the following:
> 
> 1 - bowhunting is dropping in LA, despite longer seasons and the ability to harvest deer of either sex.
> 2 - This is related to aging hunters and a lack of effective youth recruitment as evidenced by the apparent replacement hunter rate.
> 3 - Crossbows have proven to be an effective draw for hunters interested in archery.
> 4 - The facts clearly illustrate older hunters (age 50-60) young hunters and women hunters benefit most from crossbow use.
> 
> 
> 
> 1. I have not seen where there are sufficient numbers to say this is a correct statement. I am not saying it is incorrect, just not provable with the way things are counted right now.
> 
> 2. Assumption not based upon fact.
> 
> 3. Substitute the word crossbow for archery, and I agree with you. Do you have any facts that would support the notion that the crossbow is a gateway weapon for other weapons?
> 
> 4. Why is it do you think? I would love to see more development of that issue.
> 
> 
> 
> I would agree with you on point # 1 that Louisiana needs to clarify EXACTLY their methodology of counting. We have seen posts stating some are counted, some aren't counted, etc. The numbers as they are reported show a decline. I would recommend sportsmen seek to hold LDFW to defining exactly what numbers, where, how and why.
> 
> To point # 2. BALONEY. Look at average age of the deer hunter over the past several years. Is the average age dropping, climbing, or remaining the same? The answer is that it is climbing, I cannot recalll the specific state, but I think it was Georgia, which actually posted an average age DECLINE in 2004. However, if average age of hunters is climbing, that means only one thing. Fewer young hunters in the woods. These would be new entries, as existing young hunters only get older, right? The only other way average age of hunters declines, without an influx of young hunters replacing older hunters leaving the sport at a relatively equal and proportionate rate is if older hunters are suddenly not counted, which I guess could be the case as well in some States.
> 
> To point 3 - See Kentucky State data. See Georgia State Data. See Virginia State data.
> To Point 4 - Refer to the reports mentioned above.
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...


----------



## Free Range

By Jim


> good point-I previously bet source and his allies that I could hold their compound hunting bows at full draw steadier for a longer period of time than they could hold my crossbow standing aimed. Its easy to test-we used to put those cheap lasers that people put on pistols.
> 
> no one ever challenged me on that one


How about this, we both get in a tree stand, as soon as the deer is spotted you draw back your compound and we see who is shaking when it comes time to shoot.


----------



## doctariAFC

Free Range said:


> By Jim
> 
> 
> How about this, we both get in a tree stand, as soon as the deer is spotted you draw back your compound and we see who is shaking when it comes time to shoot.


I would bet the answer would be..... Both. Deer in range (and even not in range but approaching) gets the adrenaline flowing in most hunters, whether they are suing a compound, recurve, crossbow, muzzleloader, rifle, shotgun or hunting pistol. If that adrenaline rush doesn't come over you, you've either harvested so many deer it doesn't matter anymore, or the excitement of the hunt has diminished in your soul a bit. Or, you're on cold deer assassin


----------



## Jim C

Free Range said:


> By Jim
> 
> 
> How about this, we both get in a tree stand, as soon as the deer is spotted you draw back your compound and we see who is shaking when it comes time to shoot.



How many deer have you taken with a crossbow?

Thanks-I thought so


----------



## Free Range

Hey if you take me up on this it might be my first, and just think you could be sitting right there with me.

Oh and by the way there is a difference between getting the shakes because of the deer and being excited and getting the shakes because you can no longer hold your bow in the full drawn position.

And how many Blue Grouse have you taken with a longbow, thanks I thought so.


----------



## PMantle

Free Range said:


> By Jim
> 
> 
> How about this, we both get in a tree stand, as soon as the deer is spotted you draw back your compound and we see who is shaking when it comes time to shoot.


They won't concede that and it is puzzling because they should know how silly it makes them look. That's why the draw lock is not a legal means of taking a deer here too. So, it's not just crossbows.


----------



## Jim C

Free Range said:


> Hey if you take me up on this it might be my first, and just think you could be sitting right there with me.
> 
> Oh and by the way there is a difference between getting the shakes because of the deer and being excited and getting the shakes because you can no longer hold your bow in the full drawn position.
> 
> And how many Blue Grouse have you taken with a longbow, thanks I thought so.


1) as to grouse-I fail to see the relevance (BTW this is an area of hunting where a longbow has CLEAR superiority over a crossbow)-its as relevant as me comparing how many star FITAS you have shot and if you have a "pin" at 1000, 1100, 1200) or how many "funding level" Scores you have shot in a star fita Field

2) the "ease of use" argument has no relevance other than inflating the egos of certain elements who feel a need to pretend they are better than other bowhunters. Many confuse ease of use with effectiveness but no one has yet been able to prove the oft believed and oft repeated nonsense that a crossbow is "more effective" or "Unfair" compared to other forms of modern (and a fiberglas recurve bow shooting carbon arrows is MODERN) archery tackle

3) the "hold steady" argument is specious given that MOST crossbow archers (at least the 100 or so I know personally and those I have encountered since the early 80's in Ohio) shoot offhand and have to raise and aim the bow at a deer. Once again, this claim ignores the fact that it is the range that makes bowhunting tough not "holding steady"-especially after high letoff compounds became the NORM


----------



## Marvin

Free Range said:


> By Jim
> 
> 
> How about this, we both get in a tree stand, as soon as the deer is spotted you draw back your compound and we see who is shaking when it comes time to shoot.



Originally Posted by Marvin
lets stick with facts and not some half baked dog and pony show production you produced. nobody cares cares what you and your buddy looked at and deemed similiar... When are you and freerange gonna have your shoot off? He took you up on it and that seemed to get you to change the subject rather quickly. maybe he will weigh in. Why only 60 pounds...lets crank it up like a real man to say 70 lbs. what is steady by YOUR standards?( this otta get good).


this looks like a personal attack marvin-I had shoulder surgery marvin but any time you want to shoot an olympic bow with me just show up at any of the ohio outdoor ranking events. This year's Ohio state indoor in cleveland will be the first ohio ranking tournament I have missed in 8 years.

Besides I ran Free Ranges Name and couldn't find any evidence of him ever shooting a sanctioned target tournament. Your post here Marvin is not dealing with facts and I was merely refuting the nonsense that somehow you don't have to move a crossbow to shoot at a deer.

If you want to judge people as to "real men" based on what they can pull on a bow you have alot to learn what the term "man" means



here is a post from the famous shoot off challenger himself. you will see he backs out of the above challenge and changes the rules of the game because of a lame shoulder....you will see it just never ends. strength behind a monitor...r never did answer the question... actually freerannge took you up on it but he had to come to your place i believe....


----------



## Marvin

Jim C said:


> 1) as to grouse-I fail to see the relevance (BTW this is an area of hunting where a longbow has CLEAR superiority over a crossbow)-its as relevant as me comparing how many star FITAS you have shot and if you have a "pin" at 1000, 1100, 1200) or how many "funding level" Scores you have shot in a star fita Field
> 
> 2) the "ease of use" argument has no relevance other than inflating the egos of certain elements who feel a need to pretend they are better than other bowhunters. Many confuse ease of use with effectiveness but no one has yet been able to prove the oft believed and oft repeated nonsense that a crossbow is "more effective" or "Unfair" compared to other forms of modern (and a fiberglas recurve bow shooting carbon arrows is MODERN) archery tackle
> 
> 3) the "hold steady" argument is specious given that MOST crossbow archers (at least the 100 or so I know personally and those I have encountered since the early 80's in Ohio) shoot offhand and have to raise and aim the bow at a deer. Once again, this claim ignores the fact that it is the range that makes bowhunting tough not "holding steady"-especially after high letoff compounds became the NORM



you fail to see a lot of things....


----------



## Jim C

PMantle said:


> They won't concede that and it is puzzling because they should know how silly it makes them look. That's why the draw lock is not a legal means of taking a deer here too. So, it's not just crossbows.



Lets see-I have successfully hunted with all three forms of archery gear. Have you?

why should I concede something I know is untrue to someone who has no personal or firsthand knowledge available to dispute me?


----------



## Jim C

Marvin said:


> you fail to see a lot of things....


I would be happy to compare archery knowledge with you any day marvin and I would be happy to let the entire board review our posts and judge who is truly knowledgeable and who has nothing to add to the concept of "archers helping archers"


----------



## Marvin

Jim C said:


> I would be happy to compare archery knowledge with you any day marvin and I would be happy to let the entire board review our posts and judge who is truly knowledgeable and who has nothing to add to the concept of "archers helping archers"


 diversion tactic once again...I thought this was about a shootin' and holdin' contest?


----------



## cynic

Marvin said:


> diversion tactic once again...I thought this was about a shootin' and holdin' contest?


 Talk about diversion....This is about the legaliztion of the xbow not who shoots better than who. Focus on the picture, the big picture.


----------



## Marvin

cynic said:


> Talk about diversion....This is about the legaliztion of the xbow not who shoots better than who. Focus on the picture, the big picture.


Your funny when your coat-tailing the "enemy" ....How's come you only like to pick on me and none of the other factless posters on here? I am working on the numbers for La myself and yourself?


----------



## cynic

Marvin said:


> Your funny when your coat-tailing the "enemy" ....How's come you only like to pick on me and none of the other factless posters on here? I am working on the numbers for La myself and yourself?


If you are insinuating that I'm hiding from something or someone your wrong. I just find self inflated ego's amusing and enjoy "harrassing intolerable people". I'm glad to see that you are at least trying to mount a last ditch effort for your side. As for me, well you'll see soon enough


----------



## doctariAFC

Ok.... That's enough.... Settle down... Take a breath....

Shall we start a new thread - called "Flame Fest For A Day"? So you all can just have at eachother?

Send me a PM to respond. Please don't clog up this thread. 

I will take the secret ballot, and then based on exit poll results, you will either see the new thread called "Flame Fest For A Day", which will be active for a day, or perhaps we won't, if exit polls state no.

However, I do understand that some analysis is being conducted by the anti-crossbow side. I would like to avoid clogging this thread up in fairness to both sides. After all, we cannot have a debate based on opinion alone. That is called an agrument.

:focus:


----------



## PMantle

Jim C said:


> Lets see-I have successfully hunted with all three forms of archery gear. Have you?
> 
> why should I concede something I know is untrue to someone who has no personal or firsthand knowledge available to dispute me?



What exactly is untrue in the discussion? Are you saying crossbows are not held in the drawn position while hunting? I thought for sure that was conceded long ago? 

Oh, and I've hunted in La. my whole life, have you?


----------



## progers

PMantle said:


> They won't concede that and it is puzzling because they should know how silly it makes them look. That's why the draw lock is not a legal means of taking a deer here too. So, it's not just crossbows.



Thank you for pointing that out PMantle. Yes, you are correct. The *draw lock* is not legal in LA as of now. The reason, the BSBA fights it because they know if it was legal, crossbows would automatically be allowed. I would be they would sure use if it was legal. I mean, why do you keep updating your compound? Because it looks good or because it is easier to shoot? I will guess the latter.


Now, lets drop back and talk about the draw lock system for a minute. It is a known fact that the BSBA is fighting the draw lock system. It is a known fact that they have written the LDWF commission trying to convince them to keep the draw lock illegal. It is a known fact that they used to agree with the BSBA on this issue. It is a known fact that they *do not* support the BSBA's views on the draw lock and crossbow any more.

Here is a copy of the emails that was posted at the BSBA site pertaining to this very conversation:



> Posted: Fri May 06, 2005 8:52 pm Post subject:
> 
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> Well, it seems Mr. Mouton isn't willing to listen to the people again. I haven't had a chance to email the board yet, but my friend did. Here is a copy of his email and the response.
> 
> 
> 
> From: James E. Hester [mailto:[email protected]]
> Sent: Friday, May 06, 2005 10:22 AM
> To: [email protected]; [email protected]; [email protected]; [email protected]; [email protected]; [email protected]
> Cc: Shea Youngblood
> Subject: Bowhunting
> 
> 
> As an avid bowhunter and member of the BSBA, I STRONGLY OPPOSE any new or amended legislation that would permit the use of drawloc devices or crossbows during regular archery season. Such legislation would corrupt the traditional values held dear by the true bowhunting populous of this state. I implore you to cast a NAY vote against any such introduction or amendment.
> 
> Thanking you, I am
> James E. Hester
> 
> 
> 
> *James, after looking at this issue for a long time, I have changed my mind on this issue and support this. When you look at the Compound Bows, that is a big difference over the long bow and we need to make it easier to hunt and we need to get more people hunting.
> Henry *
> 
> 
> 
> Mr. Henry,
> My argument is this: Hunting with a crossbow is equivalent to hunting with a small caliber firearm. To allow this during regular archery season effectually takes the season away from the state's existing bowhunters. If the real goal of the LDWF is to "get more people hunting" and to "make it easier to hunt", I don't see this as a primary means of achieving either.
> (James)
> 
> 
> *Mr. Hester, we will have to agree to disagree.
> Henry Motuon *
> _________________




You can only blow smoke for just so long before the fire burns out. Meaning, Mr. Mouton has been educated more on this issue and he does not agree with the "stance" of the BSBA any longer.






doctariAFC said:


> 1 - bowhunting is dropping in LA, despite longer seasons and the ability to harvest deer of either sex.
> 2 - This is related to aging hunters and a lack of effective youth recruitment as evidenced by the apparent replacement hunter rate.
> 3 - Crossbows have proven to be an effective draw for hunters interested in archery.
> 4 - The facts clearly illustrate older hunters (age 50-60) young hunters and women hunters benefit most from crossbow use.





PMantle said:


> 1. I have not seen where there are sufficient numbers to say this is a correct statement. I am not saying it is incorrect, just not provable with the way things are counted right now.
> 
> 2. Assumption not based upon fact.
> 
> 3. Substitute the word crossbow for archery, and I agree with you. Do you have any facts that would support the notion that the crossbow is a gateway weapon for other weapons?
> 
> 4. Why is it do you think? I would love to see more development of that issue.



My reply to PMantle:

1. The facts are right there in front of you. It is a copy from what the LDWF sent me. Archery license sales are dropping and have been dropping. The LDWF are the ones who stated this fact. (Now, if it is your opinion that they are not, the responsibility lies upon you to get the information to prove the LDWF wrong and force them to go in and change the numbers they have posted.)

2. Let's just sum this one up real quick: every organization had dedicated more time and money into *youth campaignes* over the past 10 years than ever before, including the BSBA. As the population of the US is growing and the number of senior hunters are growing and women hunters are growing, the overall hunting population is dropping. This is documented facts. So, who is left out of this? *YOUTHS* Also, there are several states trying to put an age cap on youths that hunt. That should tell you all you need to know. 

3. Gateway weapon? The crossbow is the *ONLY* weapon that is approved by the LDWF that is not allowed by all hunters. How can it be a *gateway weapon* if it is the only one left that is not included? Not unless you are suggesting that if crossbows are made legal for everyone that it will lead to the legalization of handgrenades and RPG's or something???

4. For one, the 50 - 60 year olds would prefer to not be classed as "handicap" and have a big ol' wheelchair on their hunting license. As far as the women and children, they are more comfortable with shooting a crossbow for whatever their individual needs may be. They are finding it more "exciting" to hunt with a crossbow. Also, they do not have the "strength" to shoot everyday, all day long just to "ensure" a more ethical shot. However, even as some of the compound shooters do "practice" more, that does not ensure them perfect shots every time as they still miss and wound deer. Now, Since women and children are more sensitive than the "masculine" bowhunter (as it has been made out to be since you say you have to be in "fit" condition to "bow hunt) they tend to be more upset over wounding deer than the "man" species.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------


Now, as far as a reply to Marvin:

I have no reply for you as we are discussing FACTS and you are just "flame throwing" and we are only interested in facts and the truth. You have brought *nothing* to this debate but personal remarks and frankly, I am surprised that yuo have not been banned at this point as you have pretty much broke every *debate* rule that was set by the Legislature Moderator.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Cynic: Cynic has brought fourth a great deal of info to me that I have used in my post, and I am greatful of what he has done. Cynic has shown that a person can shoot a compound bow with one hand tied behind his back. He has also helped prove that the stats on a compound vs. crossbow is almost identical.

Cynic, just ignore him when he spews personal remarks. You are more of a man than he. Oh and Cynic, congrats on you helping with Flordia to move the xbow into archery season for some parts of your state. Great Job!


----------



## Free Range

Jim, the blue grouse comment was not meant to have any relevance, just as me having taken a deer with a x-bow or not has no relevance. 
And the holding steady comment has no relevance either, but you brought it up, with a weighted bet that only you could win, so I thought I would throw a twist in it where I know I would win.


----------



## progers

Free Range said:


> Jim, the blue grouse comment was not meant to have any relevance, just as me having taken a deer with a x-bow or not has no relevance.
> And the holding steady comment has no relevance either, but you brought it up, with a weighted bet that only you could win, so I thought I would throw a twist in it where I know I would win.




Reply to Free Range and Jim C. 

As both of yall have brought up alot of interesting comments that pertain to the facts of this matter, yall still go at it on a personal level with the exchanges of opinions that date back way before this thread was started that has nothing whatsoever to do with THE LEGALIZATION OF CROSSBOWS IN LOUISIANA FOR HUNTING OF ALL REGULATED GAME. 




progers said:


> After futher review of all the info and facts here:
> 
> *I see no reason of any kind WHY crossbows should NOT be allowed for ANY and ALL people during archery, MZl and firearm seasons for *whitetails* in the State of Louisiana.
> 
> *I see no reason of any kind WHY crossbows should NOT be allowed for ANY and ALL people to be used to hunt *small game* in Louisiana.
> 
> *I see no reason of any kind WHY crossbows should NOT be allowed for ANY and ALL people to be used to hunt any other *big game* in the State of Louisiana.
> 
> *I see no reason of any kind WHY crossbows should NOT be allowed for ANY and ALL people to be used to hunt any and all *predators* in the State of Louisiana.
> 
> *I see no reason of any kind WHY crossbows should NOT be allowed for ANY and ALL people to be used to *bowfish* in the State of Louisiana.
> 
> The crossbow deserves to be included in all hunting seasons. We vow to fight this issue for as many years and as long as it takes to get crossbow hunting rights given to the deserving people of Louisiana.



I have laid out *5* proposals and you are welcome to debate any and all of these proposals. However, there has only been one of these proposals that has been challanged and that is the hunting of whitetails during archery season with a crossbow, which is only a part of one of the proposals. The reasons given were personal opinions that are not based on any facts what so ever that I have seen. We still have *4* more proposals laying on the table that have not been debated. The way I see it, 4.66 out of 5 means the majority wins and the fact is that the crossbow should be allowed in the hunting of game during regulated season with the exception of archery season, and that still remains to be detirmined by hte State. Having said that, there should be no reason for Legislation to not accept the Bill of the Legalization of Crossbows in Louisiana.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
So, anyone have any comments on the other 4 proposals?

*I see no reason of any kind WHY crossbows should NOT be allowed for ANY and ALL people to be used to hunt *small game* in Louisiana. 

*I see no reason of any kind WHY crossbows should NOT be allowed for ANY and ALL people to be used to hunt any other *big game* in the State of Louisiana.

*I see no reason of any kind WHY crossbows should NOT be allowed for ANY and ALL people to be used to hunt any and all *predators* in the State of Louisiana. 

*I see no reason of any kind WHY crossbows should NOT be allowed for ANY and ALL people to be used to *bowfish* in the State of Louisiana.


----------



## cynic

Mr. Henry, 
My argument is this: Hunting with a crossbow is equivalent to hunting with a small caliber firearm. To allow this during regular archery season effectually takes the season away from the state's existing bowhunters. If the real goal of the LDWF is to "get more people hunting" and to "make it easier to hunt", I don't see this as a primary means of achieving either. 
(James) 


Mr. Hester, we will have to agree to disagree. 
Henry Motuon 


Ballistics Results

Cartridge Information
Index Number Cartridge Type Weight (grs.) Bullet Style Primer No. Ballistic Coefficient 
R17R2 Remington® Express® 25 Hornady Hollow Point 7 1/2 0.151 
PRA204B Premier® AccuTip™ 40 AccuTip™-V Boat Tail 7 1/2 0.275 
R22HN2 Remington® Express® 45 Hollow Point 6 1/2 0.130 


Velocity (ft/sec)
Cartridge Type Bullet Muzzle 100 200 300 400 500 
Remington® Express® 25 HP 4040 3284 2644 2086 1606 1235 
Premier® AccuTip™ 40 ATV BT 3900 3451 3046 2677 2336 2021 
Remington® Express® 45 HP 2690 2042 1502 1128 948 840 


Energy (ft-lbs)
Cartridge Type Bullet Muzzle 100 200 300 400 500 
Remington® Express® 25 HP 906 599 388 242 143 85 
Premier® AccuTip™ 40 ATV BT 1351 1058 824 636 485 363 
Remington® Express® 45 HP 723 417 225 127 90 70 


Short-Range Trajectory
Cartridge Type Bullet 50 100 150 200 250 300 
Remington® Express® 25 HP 0.0 0.3 zero -1.3 -3.8 -7.8 
Premier® AccuTip™ 40 ATV BT -0.3 0.2 zero -1.0 -2.9 -5.8 
Remington® Express® 45 HP 0.0 zero -2.1 -7.1 -16.0 -30.0 


Long-Range Trajectory
Cartridge Type Bullet 100 150 200 250 300 400 500 
Remington® Express® 25 HP 1.8 2.3 1.8 zero -3.3 -16.6 -43.6 
Premier® AccuTip™ 40 ATV BT 0.7 0.7 zero -1.6 -4.3 -13.2 -28.1 
Remington® Express® 45 HP 1.4 zero -4.3 -12.4 -25.8 -74.2 -162.0 

_Can someone get me one of the xbows he's talking about..These are the ballistics on the smallest centerfire cartridges available._


----------



## JDMiller

I've been watching this thread for sometime and waiting for something new to be brought to the table by those that oppose crossbows. So far I have yet to see it. The same debates concerning Louisiana are the same ones we heard in Kentucky....and I mean uncanny similarities. I'm sure Virginia , Tennessee , Georgia and Alabama went through the same as well. 

The crossbow is a efficient and accurate hunting tool....just as the other forms of archery weapons are. It's a pretty weak argument to debate the differences. When its all said and done....and you can refute this statement as much as you want......there are two primary differences... its already drawn and the weapon requires less time to master. Beyond that....ALL factors that vertical archery hunter experience come into play. I will add another thought.....until you hunt with one ....and I dont mean just shooting one at a paper target....you will never relate to some of the comments that have been made. To carry a crossbow into in a hunting situation does not mean automatic success and is the very reason the sky has not fallen in those states that have expanded their use. The success rates between vertical bow users and crossbow users are nearly identical.

In one of the discussions concerning the crossbow in my home state...the crossbow was described as its very own breed. Very much akin to other forms of archery but provides aditional opportunity to those that choose this weapon. This has been one of those statements that has stuck with me in supporting the use of this weapon in Kentucky. It basically says it all ......the crossbow is a form of archery equipment that can stand on its own virtue while allowing anyone the abillity to use without any bias toward age , physical abillity or gender. 

I wish Louisiana the best in its endevor to expand and legalize their use and I congratulate Florida on the new opportunities that are coming there with the 5 day season in parts of the state. Hopefully ours will be finalized in the months ahead and other states can continue to follow.....Good Luck!!!


----------



## thesource

JDMiller said:


> To carry a crossbow into in a hunting situation does not mean automatic success and is the very reason the sky has not fallen in those states that have expanded their use. The success rates between vertical bow users and crossbow users are nearly identical.


You should be careful when you tie your horse to this wagon.

The initial results reported from VA (not official, and therefore not acceptable by this very procrossbow crowd, I'm sure) indicate that although crossbow hunters were only 11% of those hunting in archery season, they accounted for 25% of the harvest.

Extrapolating off of last years harvest numbers, that would mean while bowhunters experienced their typical 21% harvest rate, brand new crossbow hunters had a 46% success rate.

I wouldn't call that nearly identical - I wouldn't even call that similar.


----------



## Jim C

PMantle said:


> What exactly is untrue in the discussion? Are you saying crossbows are not held in the drawn position while hunting? I thought for sure that was conceded long ago?
> 
> Oh, and I've hunted in La. my whole life, have you?


not in LA-lets see

USA-Ohio, Kentucky, NY, Connecticut, Indiana, Alabama, Georgia Wisconsin, Florida
England
Columbia,
Bolivia
Kenya


holding a drawn crossbow steady is tougher than holding a drawn compound steady-but then again, you would have to be well versed in both bows to know that but I have done all sorts of tests with lasers proving it true

NOW if someone has a monopod or a shooting rail, the crossbow is far steadier but that really isn't a major issue at all for hunting-its getting close to the game


----------



## Jim C

thesource said:


> You should be careful when you tie your horse to this wagon.
> 
> The initial results reported from VA (not official, and therefore not acceptable by this very procrossbow crowd, I'm sure) indicate that although crossbow hunters were only 11% of those hunting in archery season, they accounted for 25% of the harvest.
> 
> Extrapolating off of last years harvest numbers, that would mean while bowhunters experienced their typical 21% harvest rate, brand new crossbow hunters had a 46% success rate.
> 
> I wouldn't call that nearly identical - I wouldn't even call that similar.



yet that isn't true in Ohio or Canada or Georgia or Arkansas or Wyoming


----------



## JDMiller

thesource said:


> You should be careful when you tie your horse to this wagon.
> 
> The initial results reported from VA (not official, and therefore not acceptable by this very procrossbow crowd, I'm sure) indicate that although crossbow hunters were only 11% of those hunting in archery season, they accounted for 25% of the harvest.
> 
> Extrapolating off of last years harvest numbers, that would mean while bowhunters experienced their typical 21% harvest rate, brand new crossbow hunters had a 46% success rate.
> 
> I wouldn't call that nearly identical - I wouldn't even call that similar.



Success ratios different from state to state that allows crossbows....Ohio has reported a slightly higher success rate for the crossbow users than conventional archery users ....inturn Arkansas ..the conventional archery users have a higher success rate than crossbow users. Both these states are the ones that have allowed crossbows throughout archery the longest. I live in a border county to Tennessee....unofficialy(like Virginias totals) they are estimating around 20% of the total archery harvest from crossbow users.

In the bigger picture of things.....archery is not a management tool in most states. The wildlife departments can easily add additional muzzleloader or firearm dates and can get more harvest in a additional day or two of these methods than the entire archery season combined. In most cases...archery users need to harvest more deer than what they are doing...especially does. Crossbows are being looked at in a lot of states as a means to increase harvest in the archery season. In my state we have a one buck limit regardless of weapon and in zone 1 or zone 2 counties you basically can take a unlimited number of does....if you keep purchasing tags. The majority of counties in the state fall into these zones and despite this fact our archery harvest numbers have stayed basically the same. We need more harvest in archery season.....hence the support of crossbows by the KDF&WR. The alternative to crossbows.....more muzzleloader or modern firearm dates.

So........if crossbow users in Virginia accounted for only 11% of the hunters and harvested 25% of the total archery harvest.....sounds like their doing a good job.


----------



## progers

Thanks for your insight JDMiller. That was very interesting. It is kewl to be able to have an open mind and learn new things instead of being tha "old dog" that can't learn a new trick.


You know, Louisiana is falling behind in archery license sales and total archery deer kill stats. I wonder what we can do to bring those numbers up? Any ideas? :wink:


----------



## Free Range

> You know, Louisiana is falling behind in archery license sales and total archery deer kill stats. I wonder what we can do to bring those numbers up? Any ideas?


Here’s an idea for you , support the bows in school program, do more to involve the youth, make a commitment to introduce one new person to hunting every year. Join and support national organizations the promote bowhunting, like the PBS. Do you have any idea what the % of bowhunters that belong to bowhunting organizations are? It’s shameful how many or our fellow hunters do nothing to help support our sport. How about doing a yearly drive to get them involved, if we just raised the % to something approaching 50% there wouldn’t be any problems at all. To try and hold the x-bow up as the Holy Grail, the Savior of bow hunting and ignore the real problems with regards to dropping numbers is ludicrous, its like putting a bandage on a severed aorta. 

I’m sorry I haven’t been able to delve deeper into this discussion but I have been busy at work and home lately and only have time for a couple sound bites here and there. And anyhow I just can’t resist pointing out how silly some of Jim’s challenges are.


----------



## doctariAFC

Free Range said:


> Here’s an idea for you , support the bows in school program, do more to involve the youth, make a commitment to introduce one new person to hunting every year. Join and support national organizations the promote bowhunting, like the PBS. Do you have any idea what the % of bowhunters that belong to bowhunting organizations are? It’s shameful how many or our fellow hunters do nothing to help support our sport. How about doing a yearly drive to get them involved, if we just raised the % to something approaching 50% there wouldn’t be any problems at all. To try and hold the x-bow up as the Holy Grail, the Savior of bow hunting and ignore the real problems with regards to dropping numbers is ludicrous, its like putting a bandage on a severed aorta.
> 
> I’m sorry I haven’t been able to delve deeper into this discussion but I have been busy at work and home lately and only have time for a couple sound bites here and there. And anyhow I just can’t resist pointing out how silly some of Jim’s challenges are.


FreeRange, you have touched on another challenge we as sportsmen and women face as well, and this is not limited to youth involvement efforts. The larger issue is sportsmen involvement.

Roughly 10% - and that is being generous - of sportsmen belong to a club or organization. Those that are members of organizations are typically involved in more than one. However, simply joining and supporting a National organization is NOT going to change anything, other than sending your money to a National Umbrella. Where involvement MUST happen is at the local level. The Rod & Gun Clubs, Conservation Clubs, Archery Clubs, etc. LOCAL LEVEL, where your involvement can actually translate into actual participation. NASP is part of the picture, but without local clubs, the NASP would simply sit there, with no arms and legs to actually execute the program. Local level membership, with FEDERATED CLUBS, also gives you a real voice in legislative initiatives. This is where we must focus our efforts, not just sending a check to the National and hoping someone else will pick up the ball. Local level club membership is what we need to increase.

However, this is a separate issue from crossbows. NASP is a great program, but what does this have to do with providing another choice to hunters? The answer is absolutely nothing.


----------



## doctariAFC

Which brings us to another issue.... More important than recruiting kids to get into hunting is appealing to them in terms of making them feel welcome and wanted - indeed needed. One of the biggest knocks on clubs (and since I am heavily involved in this aspect of Outdoors, I can bring enough experience to attest to this) is the clicky, elitist attitudes many club members bring to the party. I have received many, many emails from sportsmen in Upstate New York looking for a "good club" to join, and without exception each person has mentioned that some of the clubs they have joined in the past are way too clicky and project a snooty attitude. Believe it or not, this is a turn off.

The debate around crossbows is a perfect example of this. The continual bickering over deer vs pheasants vs turkey, or trout fishing vs bass fishing vs musky fishing, or fly fishing vs spinning or live bait vs artificial bait only serves to make one person "feel superior" to another. Its all baloney. And all of this serves to turn off potential members.

Attitudes need adjusting. Unity must be worked towards. Otherwise, what we get is what we have today. Many great ideas and fantastic programs, which end up creating a whole boatload of noise, a shattered glass, if you will, with countless shards to choose from. Efforts become strained, and the end result is not enough resources to make a good idea work. If we combine some of these efforts into a more focused, unified plan, we can make far more progress and get far greater results. I liken this condition to the ever sprouting "festivals" we in WNY must endure each summer, and each summer it seems a new festival pops up. Back in the day, many organizations, like K of C, BSA/ GSA, and many chruches would hold a festival as a fund-raising event. We had basically in WNY the majors for a loong time, such as Allentown Art Festival, Canal Fest, Eden Corn Fest, Erie County Fair, plus a half dozen or so lawn fettes. People could attend all of these, and the funds each generated for the supporters was tremendous. Then the wave of fests bcame the fad. Summers in WNY now bring us, in addition to the "majors", Italian Fest, Taste of Buffalo, Helenic Fest, Irish Fest, Polish Fest, Chicken Wing Fest, Tulip Fest, Zucchini Fest, Strawberry Fest, the list goes on and on and on forever and ever and ever. This, although providing nice things to do, creates noise and spreads out the activities to the point where each fest makes less money, is less effective, etc. This is also true for hunting programs as well. We don't need new programs, we need better execution on existing programs. We should be tying the programs together to reduce the noise. Just my opinion on that.

Now :focus:


----------



## Jim C

Why would anyone who wants to help bowhunting join a group like the PBS? Not only does this group slander crossbow bowhunters, this group has been proven to be purveyors of lies. Those lies not only defame other hunters, they can be used by people like PETA to brand all "pro hunting" groups as prevaricators.

I suggest people join INCLUSIVE pro hunting groups such as the NRA or the ACF not divisive cults like the PBS

as to the contests Free Range-its your side that try to justify selfishness and exclusions with idiotic claims that xbows give their users an advantage over compound hunters. I am just pointing out that those claims are lies


----------



## Jim C

doctariAFC said:


> However, this is a separate issue from crossbows. NASP is a great program, but what does this have to do with providing another choice to hunters? The answer is absolutely nothing.


actually, I believe you are somewhat mistaken though its not patently obvious. The main argument against xbows is more people in the woods. Though the howling is over the weapon and those who are "too lazy" to use "proper" equipment, the more honest excluders admit its that they don't want more people in their woods hunting what they think is their deer in "their" season

now lets think about NASP. IF IT really works what is NASP going to do? create more archers. Some of them-like my USAT member Melissa Ash-started with NASP and now wants to be an olympic or world FITA recurve team member. However, many kids who start NASP end up bow hunting.

IF NASP is successful, that will mean alot of NEW BOWHUNTERS in the season that our selfish friends want to keep exclusive. NASP and xbows are similar to some extent-both are vehicles that will entice more youth to bow hunt.

I wonder if our anti xbow crowd is anti NASP if NASP means more novices (real novices as opposed to seasoned gun hunters now using xbows) in "their" woods


----------



## Marvin

Jim C said:


> actually, I believe you are somewhat mistaken though its not patently obvious. The main argument against xbows is more people in the woods. Though the howling is over the weapon and those who are "too lazy" to use "proper" equipment, the more honest excluders admit its that they don't want more people in their woods hunting what they think is their deer in "their" season
> 
> now lets think about NASP. IF IT really works what is NASP going to do? create more archers. Some of them-like my USAT member Melissa Ash-started with NASP and now wants to be an olympic or world FITA recurve team member. However, many kids who start NASP end up bow hunting.
> 
> IF NASP is successful, that will mean alot of NEW BOWHUNTERS in the season that our selfish friends want to keep exclusive. NASP and xbows are similar to some extent-both are vehicles that will entice more youth to bow hunt.
> 
> I wonder if our anti xbow crowd is anti NASP if NASP means more novices (real novices as opposed to seasoned gun hunters now using xbows) in "their" woods



I'm not against them...they don't let them shoot xbows in school:wink:


----------



## Jim C

Marvin said:


> I'm not against them...they don't let them shoot xbows in school:wink:



people like you are why there aren't rifle teams in schools anymore


----------



## Engelsmung

*Wow*

Are y'all still flogging this dead horse? 350 posts, and no one has changed their mind. Whodathunkit? I thought the "loose coalition" would have called Gov. Blanco to make sure this important bill got into the special session that just started. Don't forget to send a check with your bill request...this is still Louisiana after all.


----------



## Free Range

> However, this is a separate issue from crossbows. NASP is a great program, but what does this have to do with providing another choice to hunters? The answer is absolutely nothing.


Well if this topic is narrowly defined as giving sportsmen another choice then so be it. But I was not the one that brought “adding hunters” into our fold to this debate. If giving sportsmen another choice is the only topic up for debate then what the heck are we arguing about, of course giving sportsmen more choices is a good thing. However that leads us to the debate of when and where these choices should be allowed. 



> I wonder if our anti xbow crowd is anti NASP if NASP means more novices (real novices as opposed to seasoned gun hunters now using xbows) in "their" woods


See Jim this is where your lies about us not wanting more bowhunters in our woods falls apart. We support programs and organizations that promote bowhunting and encourage people to take up the bow. In fact I have at least two programs slated for this summer to do just that, one involves the local 4H club and another will be open to anyone to come learn about archery, and bowhunting.


----------



## Marvin

Jim C said:


> Why would anyone who wants to help bowhunting join a group like the PBS? Not only does this group slander crossbow bowhunters, this group has been proven to be purveyors of lies. Those lies not only defame other hunters, they can be used by people like PETA to brand all "pro hunting" groups as prevaricators.
> 
> I suggest people join INCLUSIVE pro hunting groups such as the NRA or the ACF not divisive cults like the PBS
> 
> as to the contests Free Range-its your side that try to justify selfishness and exclusions with idiotic claims that xbows give their users an advantage over compound hunters. I am just pointing out that those claims are lies



no just how is the PBS exclusive? it doesn't keep out blacks, white, Hispanics, Jews, Nazi or anyone else. Are the boys scouts and exclusive cult? What about the JOAd Program?


----------



## Marvin

Jim C said:


> people like you are why there aren't rifle teams in schools anymore


this post shows how weak your arguements are.


----------



## Jim C

Marvin said:


> this post shows how weak your arguements are.


that is funny coming from you

have you every made an argument Marvin? We all see lots of flaming but as to arguments?

not liking crossbows isn't an argument and whining about those who do doesn't cut it. Pretending that xbows have caused hunting numbers in ohio to decline isn't persuasive either.


----------



## Marvin

Jim C said:


> that is funny coming from you
> 
> have you every made an argument Marvin? We all see lots of flaming but as to arguments?
> 
> not liking crossbows isn't an argument and whining about those who do doesn't cut it. Pretending that xbows have caused hunting numbers in ohio to decline isn't persuasive either.


 i suggest upping your medication. Please show where I said the crossbow has caused people to LEAVE archery. Your a liar and you know it. your supposive lifetime of archery knowledge isn't a fact either. but I don't expect you to be able to stay in reality long enough to know the difference anyway.


----------



## Marvin

heres a link for you Jim....enjoy

http://www.bowsite.com/bowsite/tf/regional/thread.cfm?threadid=122571&MESSAGES=2&state=OH


----------



## Jim C

I guess Marvin is tired of being on AT


----------



## Marvin

I was on the the LA DNR website and was having a hard time finding tag requirements. Do teh poeple of LA have to buy an archery deer tag and a deer gun tag or do you just buy a deer tag and its good for all seasons?


----------



## Marvin

Jim C said:


> I guess Marvin is tired of being on AT


 :tongue: don't let that deflate your ballon jim... I would be a bigot if I didn't visit every archery website i could.


----------



## PMantle

Marvin said:


> I was on the the LA DNR website and was having a hard time finding tag requirements. Do teh poeple of LA have to buy an archery deer tag and a deer gun tag or do you just buy a deer tag and its good for all seasons?


IMHO, this is our biggest problem. No tags at all. Just a 6 deer limit. No reporting either. You just kill and take home. You can even kill all bucks if you want. You do have to have a basic and a big game license. I can't remember if there is an archery stamp, because I have been a lifetime license holder too long to remember all that I used to buy. I have to buy nothing for State critters. All I buy is a Federal duck stamp to hunt waterfowl.

There has been talk of a tagging system with bucks to does at 2/4, but no idea if it will ever happen. The only way anyone gets a tag is if they enter their land into a State program like DMAP. Then, you get tags for antlerless deer based upon the local herd.


----------



## Marvin

PMantle said:


> IMHO, this is our biggest problem. No tags at all. Just a 6 deer limit. No reporting either. You just kill and take home. You can even kill all bucks if you want. You do have to have a basic and a big game license. I can't remember if there is an archery stamp, because I have been a lifetime license holder too long to remember all that I used to buy. I have to buy nothing for State critters. All I buy is a Federal duck stamp to hunt waterfowl.
> 
> There has been talk of a tagging system with bucks to does at 2/4, but no idea if it will ever happen. The only way anyone gets a tag is if they enter their land into a State program like DMAP. Then, you get tags for antlerless deer based upon the local herd.



okay I have to admit that is odd as heck. No tag or tag in system? how in the heck do they know what is going on or is that another thread? It appears that the herd is healthy but not knowing for sure how much of how many animals you have is for lack of a better word ...insane. the population and harvest should be benchmarked first before adding anything new in or taking something out. So it is true, adding the crossbow in the season full time would not necessarily benefit the state financially. well I have to take that back. if you look in the USFW report, there MIGHT be a small surge in goods purchased but i can't believe that with the liberal seasons already and the ability to hunt during gun season the crossbow would be a benefit. Everyone would really benefit a little if they read the USFW reports. Lots of good data. albeit general but it did open my eyes. don;t woory procrossbow people, I am not hip to all the laws in LA and I am going to research them a little more to be sure i have all bases covered.


----------



## progers

Marvin said:


> I was on the the LA DNR website and was having a hard time finding tag requirements. Do teh poeple of LA have to buy an archery deer tag and a deer gun tag or do you just buy a deer tag and its good for all seasons?



Marvin, we do not have tags unless you are DMAP. We are alloed 6 deer per season for the most part of the state. The way it works is you have to buy a small game license to buy a big game license and you have to buy the big game license to buy an archery license. The MZL license is also seperate. I hope this can answer your question.





> Originally Posted by Free Range
> Here’s an idea for you , support the bows in school program, do more to involve the youth, make a commitment to introduce one new person to hunting every year. Join and support national organizations the promote bowhunting, like the PBS. Do you have any idea what the % of bowhunters that belong to bowhunting organizations are? It’s shameful how many or our fellow hunters do nothing to help support our sport. How about doing a yearly drive to get them involved, if we just raised the % to something approaching 50% there wouldn’t be any problems at all. To try and hold the x-bow up as the Holy Grail, the Savior of bow hunting and ignore the real problems with regards to dropping numbers is ludicrous, its like putting a bandage on a severed aorta.
> 
> I’m sorry I haven’t been able to delve deeper into this discussion but I have been busy at work and home lately and only have time for a couple sound bites here and there. And anyhow I just can’t resist pointing out how silly some of Jim’s challenges are.


You are absolutly correct, Free Range. We need more people to get envolved with support. But, why should we help fund the bowhunting organizations when they have vowed to spend their money to fight crossbow hunters? WHY? Now, we are turning to support the ATA which supports all bowhunting: tradionalist, compounds and crossbows-all the archers. So, yes, we are supporting ALL archers alike. Non Bias. I hope you can understand that.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------- 

The NABC, which was organized by Pope and Young, along with all the smaller "compound" bowhunting organizations are the ones burning the bridges in their blind and determined drive to ban crossbows, they have become one pf the premier anti-hunting/hunter groups in North America.

Their philosophy of "not my deer, in my season, in my woods" has prompted disgust and outrage amoung sportsman groups, individual sportsmen and women, legislators, wildlife agency leaders, outdoor writers and many others all across our great nation. 



This new coalition has threatened the leadership ot the ATA. In a lengthy letter by the 2nd Archery Summit, they stated:

"We universally consider the intrusion of crossbows into archery seasons as the most imminent and critical threat to the future of bowhunting as we know it. We are in unanimous aggrement that crossbows are not bows and have no place in archery season, except where already allowed for the disabled.

The next threating portion of the Coalition statement to the ATA, states the following: " It is bitterly disappointing to realize that we may have to spend large portions of our individual and collective resources to defeat those that we had actually expected to be leaders in protecting our sport and heritage."
--------------------------------------------------------------------------


Now, ALL yall (refering to the compound bowhunter organizations) need to quit whinning and join forces to fight to protect ALL archers and quit running around whinning thinking everyone is out to destroy "your hunting" in "your woods" and kill "your deer". You need to open your eyes and wake up and see the harm to our doing to our fellow hunters. If is YOUR own fault, because of YOUR actions that people are loosing intrest in supporting you. Nobody is "out to get you" but rather what is happing is a result of YOUR own wrong doing. 

The great sportsmen and women of America will not stand for it any longer. Either you support ALL hunters are you keep attacking hunters the way you do, it is your choice. But, until YOU stop, you are just a "cannibal" and an "anti-hunter" in the books of many of good folks and we shall not have pity on you. Shame on you! What you represent at this time is just plain WRONG and we will not support you any longer. You are feeling the repercussions of what you do. You made the bed, now go and lay in it. And please, quit asking for pity. Just quit attacking other hunters and all will be fine.



To be honest, I am primarily a gun hunter. I got involved in this because of what is happening and to tell you the truth, it makes me sick. Nobody has asked me to do this. I do this on my own free will. I want to see the day when all hunters are united. Nobody gives me any "free merchandise" or anything to do this. I do this because it is what I feel is the right thing for ALL hunters. We will prevail in the long haul and if it means putting the vise on the compound hunting organizations then, so be it. I do not pity you as you are hurt like the ones that you hurt. What goes around will come back at you 10 fold. We will unite and force you to do the right thing. Sorry dude but, it is in the best intrest of the majority of the good, descent and ethical hunters. YOUR values are slipping and you need to work on that department and you need to do it real soon.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------


Engelsmung said:


> Are y'all still flogging this dead horse? 350 posts, and no one has changed their mind. Whodathunkit? I thought the "loose coalition" would have called Gov. Blanco to make sure this important bill got into the special session that just started. Don't forget to send a check with your bill request...this is still Louisiana after all.


No thanks Engelsmung. We will use our own tactics. You can save your tactics for your own organization.


----------



## progers

Marvin said:


> okay I have to admit that is odd as heck. No tag or tag in system? how in the heck do they know what is going on or is that another thread? It appears that the herd is healthy but not knowing for sure how much of how many animals you have is for lack of a better word ...insane. the population and harvest should be benchmarked first before adding anything new in or taking something out. So it is true, adding the crossbow in the season full time would not necessarily benefit the state financially. well I have to take that back. if you look in the USFW report, there MIGHT be a small surge in goods purchased but i can't believe that with the liberal seasons already and the ability to hunt during gun season the crossbow would be a benefit. Everyone would really benefit a little if they read the USFW reports. Lots of good data. albeit general but it did open my eyes. don;t woory procrossbow people, I am not hip to all the laws in LA and I am going to research them a little more to be sure i have all bases covered.



Marvin, I must say that I am impressed with you. This is the statement of someone with an open mind. 

Also Marvin, we maybe going to a tagging system this year, 3 doe/3buck with no antler restrictions. We have a great deer herd, really good "quality and healthy" deer. As we may lack on the "trophy" department compared to other states, we still have "quailty" deer none the less.

Adding the crossbow will generate more revenue in the small increase of archery license sold, not just for whitetails but, all other game and fish. This is a fact. We have 2 gamewardens per parish (county) and that is it. The revenue from archery license sales, fines and so in will increase state funding straight to the LDWF. That means raises and/or more manpower. That means they can help us more so, we must help them help us. Yes, you are right, it will be a small surge but, a surge none the less.

Thanks for your response Marvin.


----------



## Free Range

Progers before I comment on your post #362, is everything not in the darker quote boxes your words? Because it sounds like you are quoting the ATA in some of that, or some of the other more radical x-bow pushers, and before I point out the many fallacies within your post I would like to know who to attribute them to.


----------



## Marvin

progers said:


> Marvin, I must say that I am impressed with you. This is the statement of someone with an open mind.
> 
> Also Marvin, we maybe going to a tagging system this year, 3 doe/3buck with no antler restrictions. We have a great deer herd, really good "quality and healthy" deer. As we may lack on the "trophy" department compared to other states, we still have "quailty" deer none the less.
> 
> Adding the crossbow will generate more revenue in the small increase of archery license sold, not just for whitetails but, all other game and fish. This is a fact. We have 2 gamewardens per parish (county) and that is it. The revenue from archery license sales, fines and so in will increase state funding straight to the LDWF. That means raises and/or more manpower. That means they can help us more so, we must help them help us. Yes, you are right, it will be a small surge but, a surge none the less.
> 
> Thanks for your response Marvin.



Progers nice to see a complimnet every now and again. Thanks
I am still digging into it more so I hope this thread does not get ruined. i will see what i can find and report back. I saw on here were you wanted to bowfish with a crossbow....don;t do it...I've been down that road. gets expensive...the bolts blow completly through the fish and and stick in teh mud if your in the shallows. best thing i have found so far is a 45 lb recurve...moderate energy so the arrow stay in the fish and quicker to shoot when those suprises happen. We have a rocky environment up here so it may differ for your area but take it for what its worth. refraction sucks to compinsate for with the crossbow too.

is a parish what a yankee would call a county?


----------



## PMantle

I have progers on ignore, so I only see what he says when he is quoted, but I want to respond to the revenue issue. Engelsmung and I could start using a crossbow, and as lifetime license holders, we would not be required to buy another license. I see lots of lifetime stickers on trucks in the parking lots of the NWR's I hunt. Those guys would not be buying another license either. Same with many a gun hunter who would try crossbows. Crossbows would have to attract new hunters, or those not already holding either a lifetime or archery stamp(as stated before, not even sure if there is one)before new money would come into the State's wildlife coffers..


----------



## progers

Marvin said:


> Progers nice to see a complimnet every now and again. Thanks
> I am still digging into it more so I hope this thread does not get ruined. i will see what i can find and report back. I saw on here were you wanted to bowfish with a crossbow....don;t do it...I've been down that road. gets expensive...the bolts blow completly through the fish and and stick in teh mud if your in the shallows. best thing i have found so far is a 45 lb recurve...moderate energy so the arrow stay in the fish and quicker to shoot when those suprises happen. We have a rocky environment up here so it may differ for your area but take it for what its worth. refraction sucks to compinsate for with the crossbow too.
> 
> is a parish what a yankee would call a county?



Your very welcome Marvin. I do not know anyone here personally and I can only judge them by their words. However, I hate to judge people. I'm all about the "comrodery" of hunting. It's all about our friends.

No, I have no personal agenda to bowfish with a crossbow. You're right, I probably couldn't afford the arrows to shoot at them, lol! I may never hunt with a crossbow. I've never even shot a crossbow. But, I can tell you that it would mean alot to me and a lot of good folks just to have that choice.

Yes, a parish=county in the state of LA. We are french based and we have parishes. I think Canada is set up along the same boundaries, not sure. However, it would be unfair to say that a yankee is who calls them parishes all all other "southern states" have counties, too! :wink: 




Free Range said:


> Progers before I comment on your post #362, is everything not in the darker quote boxes your words? Because it sounds like you are quoting the ATA in some of that, or some of the other more radical x-bow pushers, and before I point out the many fallacies within your post I would like to know who to attribute them to.


Free Range, the section of my post inbetween the (----) lines is from a outdoors writer:



> The NABC, which was organized by Pope and Young, along with all the smaller "compound" bowhunting organizations are the ones burning the bridges in their blind and determined drive to ban crossbows, they have become one pf the premier anti-hunting/hunter groups in North America.
> 
> Their philosophy of "not my deer, in my season, in my woods" has prompted disgust and outrage amoung sportsman groups, individual sportsmen and women, legislators, wildlife agency leaders, outdoor writers and many others all across our great nation.
> 
> 
> 
> This new coalition has threatened the leadership ot the ATA. In a lengthy letter by the 2nd Archery Summit, they stated:
> 
> "We universally consider the intrusion of crossbows into archery seasons as the most imminent and critical threat to the future of bowhunting as we know it. We are in unanimous aggrement that crossbows are not bows and have no place in archery season, except where already allowed for the disabled.
> 
> The next threating portion of the Coalition statement to the ATA, states the following: " It is bitterly disappointing to realize that we may have to spend large portions of our individual and collective resources to defeat those that we had actually expected to be leaders in protecting our sport and heritage."


Most of it is from a letter from a "compound" bowhunting organization. It is their words, not his.

However, everything else there is MY words.

I think that I would call him "passionate" rather than "radical". Who are you to take away from the good and descent folks that "choose" to hunt with a crossbow because in your "personal" opinions and choices? 

Now, I have a feeling that your reply is going to be nothing but an opinion and will not be based by any facts but, that is just my opinion so, reply away.

I guess now, you will attack the ATA because they are for the rights of crossbow hunters along with ALL archery hunters as equal. I mean, yall have attacked everyone else so, go ahead, trash some more great people and organizations. It only makes your side look worse in the eyes of the public. 

The floor is all yours, Bro!


----------



## progers

PMantle said:


> I have progers on ignore, so I only see what he says when he is quoted, but I want to respond to the revenue issue. Engelsmung and I could start using a crossbow, and as lifetime license holders, we would not be required to buy another license. I see lots of lifetime stickers on trucks in the parking lots of the NWR's I hunt. Those guys would not be buying another license either. Same with many a gun hunter who would try crossbows. Crossbows would have to attract new hunters, or those not already holding either a lifetime or archery stamp(as stated before, not even sure if there is one)before new money would come into the State's wildlife coffers..



Why would you ignore me? Do you not like hearing facts? Is that suppose to make me look like I am some bad person or something? Why would you want to debate me then ignore my posts? Doesn't make any sense!?!?  

There are alot more folks in LA than you and Engelsmung, believe me!

Dude, a person who is a lifetime gunhunter would have to purchase an archery license to hunt with a crossbow. The big game license does not cover it! Yes, you would be correct in saying that the very small percentage of hunters in LA right now who have already purchased a lifetime archery license may not have to purchase a seperate license to crossbow hunt. That is, unless the LDWF makes a seperate license for the crossbow. Which, I belive that there is a seperate permit right now for the few who are allowed to use the crossbow. 

Your post makes no sense what so ever Bro.

Dude, it WILL bring more money. You have to do more than just say, in your opinion, that it won't. I guess ALL the other states that prove that it does bring in more revenue are just "radical crossbow pushers" in your eyes so, what they say are just lies to push the crossbow!?!

I just can not understand your way of thinking. But, then again, I am just a simple farmer and not an attorney.


----------



## progers

Marvin, ya lost me about the "energy" of the crossbow!?!  

How can a compound arrow pass thru a deer and not thru a fish? Wouldn't it be more of the "broadhead" that is used that prevents the "passthru" and not the amount of energy?

I don't know but that would seem more logical?

As I said, I mainly hunt with rifles so, I am not up to date on the "physics" of the energy of the compound vs. crossbow.

I am willing to learn tho!


----------



## LiLWhipJr19

You should only be able to use a Cross Bow if you're Handicap or over a certain age... I'm from Louisiana Born and raised and thats how it should be...


----------



## Marvin

progers said:


> Marvin, ya lost me about the "energy" of the crossbow!?!
> 
> How can a compound arrow pass thru a deer and not thru a fish? Wouldn't it be more of the "broadhead" that is used that prevents the "passthru" and not the amount of energy?
> 
> I don't know but that would seem more logical?
> 
> As I said, I mainly hunt with rifles so, I am not up to date on the "physics" of the energy of the compound vs. crossbow.
> 
> I am willing to learn tho!


here is your physics lesson for the day. water is basically air only thicker. it has more particles to act on an object. ( that's why it is harder to run in water than just down the street)(Drag equation) anywhooo...a crossbow bolt by nature has less area to be acted upon by the resistant forces of the water versus a longer arrow say of 28 inches and similiar diameter. the bolt will retain its energy better through the fluid medium than the regular arrow. the crossbow also has a lot more stored energy that the recurve. the bolts weight will also give it an advantage in the fluid medium. same goes for a compound. it too would blow through a fish if it was cranked up to 70 pounds. you don't necessarily want to blow through the fish but you want enough penetrations that the retainer fins(prongs) ( hey use a fish point ....no broadheads) can do their job and you can retrieve the fish. remember I said recurve not compound. bowfisherman who do use a compound don't have them cranked all the way up either. I arrow that passes through water goes through many more dynamic resistance forces than an arrow that passes through a deer. if you need more just let me know.


----------



## Free Range

Hey like everything else it’s radical if it’s against the way “I” feel )



> I guess now, you will attack the ATA because they are for the rights of crossbow hunters along with ALL archery hunters as equal. I mean, yall have attacked everyone else so, go ahead, trash some more great people and organizations. It only makes your side look worse in the eyes of the public.


That is rich, you need to go back and re-read some of Jims post if you want to see someone attacking great people and great organizations.

Actually I was going to point out where their facts are wrong, and where they are using opinion, and how I thought we should get back to the facts.



> The NABC, which was organized by Pope and Young, along with all the smaller "compound" bowhunting organizations are the ones burning the bridges in their blind and determined drive to ban crossbows, they have become one pf the premier anti-hunting/hunter groups in North America


.

The x-bow is already banned in most states, correct, or should I say not allowed in the full regular archery season, correct? The above statement makes it sound like they are going around trying to take something away from people that already have it. (which is not a fact) Also he called them anti hunting, this is so absurd that you should be ashamed for not deleting that part before you posted it. 



> This new coalition has threatened the leadership ot the ATA. In a lengthy letter by the 2nd Archery Summit, they stated:


Threatened how? Did someone at P&Y say they were going to come over to the ATA and punch them in the nose?



> The next threating portion of the Coalition statement to the ATA, states the following: " It is bitterly disappointing to realize that we may have to spend large portions of our individual and collective resources to defeat those that we had actually expected to be leaders in protecting our sport and heritage."


This is treating how? 



> Now, ALL yall (refering to the compound bowhunter organizations) need to quit whinning and join forces to fight to protect ALL archers and quit running around whinning thinking everyone is out to destroy "your hunting" in "your woods" and kill "your deer". You need to open your eyes and wake up and see the harm to our doing to our fellow hunters. If is YOUR own fault, because of YOUR actions that people are loosing intrest in supporting you. Nobody is "out to get you" but rather what is happing is a result of YOUR own wrong doing.


Destroy our hunting, our deer, where the heck do you come up with this stuff. If it’s everybodies woods and deer then why do we have separate seasons? How is separating the seasons any different then separating the x-bow? 
And harm we are doing, so I guess out of the blue someone said hey why don’t we start a campaign to eliminate the x-bow even though there is no one wanting to force them into archery season. Sir you are the ones stirring this up, not us, everything was fine until you started wanting to take over the archery season. (fact)



> The great sportsmen and women of America will not stand for it any longer. Either you support ALL hunters are you keep attacking hunters the way you do, it is your choice. But, until YOU stop, you are just a "cannibal" and an "anti-hunter" in the books of many of good folks and we shall not have pity on you. Shame on you! What you represent at this time is just plain WRONG and we will not support you any longer. You are feeling the repercussions of what you do. You made the bed, now go and lay in it. And please, quit asking for pity. Just quit attacking other hunters and all will be fine.


The old big tent crap again, so we should agree with anything someone wants to call hunting or be labeled anti-hunter? Shame on YOU for trying to paint us as anti hunter because we don’t agree with having the x-bow in archery season.


----------



## thesource

Great post, Free Range.

I'm growing weary of being chastised about crossbow "bashing" out one corner of a mouth while the rest of it is used to disparage bowhunters, compounds, bowhunting , etc.

Shame on you, progers. You won't gain any allies by badmouthing bowhunting....you sound like you "mainly hunt with rifles", cause you sure don't act like a bowhunter!


----------



## PMantle

thesource said:


> Shame on you, progers. You won't gain any allies by badmouthing bowhunting....you sound like you "mainly hunt with rifles", cause you sure don't act like a bowhunter!
> 
> 
> 
> Now you see why I have him on ignore.
Click to expand...


----------



## progers

thesource said:


> Great post, Free Range.
> 
> I'm growing weary of being chastised about crossbow "bashing" out one corner of a mouth while the rest of it is used to disparage bowhunters, compounds, bowhunting , etc.
> 
> Shame on you, progers. You won't gain any allies by badmouthing bowhunting....you sound like you "mainly hunt with rifles", cause you sure don't act like a bowhunter!




I've bowhunted for many, many years. I'm not bad mouthing "bowhunters" but, I would be bad mouthing any anti-hunters and/or cannibals that attack other hunters because they won't be in their little "click". 




free range said:


> Destroy our hunting, our deer, where the heck do you come up with this stuff.


Dude, go back and read the posts from the anti-crossbow hunters on this topic. They say "my deer" and "my woods" many many times. That is where I got it from. As a matter a fact, I can probably go dig it up where YOU said it!




free range said:


> The x-bow is already banned in most states, correct, or should I say not allowed in the full regular archery season


The xbow has never been banned. It would have to be legalized first then withdrawn from the season to be considered "banned". It is only gaining more states year after year. 30 years ago, there was only one state that allowed it in archery season. Now, I think that there is 12. Looks like forward progress to me. We had a few states just last year that made it legal for archery season. I don't see anyone banning it because, it is a good thing.



free range said:


> Sir you are the ones stirring this up, not us, everything was fine until you started wanting to take over the archery season. (fact)


Who died and made you God?




free range said:


> Shame on YOU for trying to paint us as anti hunter because we don’t agree with having the x-bow in archery season.


i'm not blaming the whole bowhunting community, just the ones who resent the crossbow community as a whole. Most don't agree with having crossbows in ANY hunting season of ANY game. It is not just archery season. If the opposition was just fighting it in archery season then, that would be understandable. But, they fight it for ANY and ALL hunting, period. And that is a FACT. That is just WRONG. That makes them anti-hunters!




free range said:


> so I guess out of the blue someone said hey why don’t we start a campaign to eliminate the x-bow


Uh, yes, they did. They vow to fight ALL crossbow hunting and ALL anti-hunters. That was the two things that were vowed to fight against. That is a FACT.



free range said:


> The old big tent crap again, so we should agree with anything someone wants to call hunting or be labeled anti-hunter? Shame on YOU for trying to paint us as anti hunter because we don’t agree with having the x-bow in archery season.


yes, it is crap. The letter you speak of was written by a "bowhunting" organization and it is crap. You are right there. Once again, this is a "push" to make crossbow hunting legal for ANY and ALL game. It is not a "push" just to make it legal for archery season. I have made that clear. We have openly and publically tried to to negotiate a seperate season for crossbows with a seperate season. The opposition says "NO GO! We have no part of it. We are against it for any and all people, period."


the sorce and Free Range, I think that one of yall, maybe both has stated that you feel that it should be considered in all seasons for all game with the exception of archery season of whitetails. Ok. That is understandable. That does not put YOU GUYS in the "anti-hunter" and "cannibal" group in my opinion. However, the ones who fight it in ANY and ALL seasons for all game excluding archery season for whitetails are the group that I pubically call "anti-hunters" and "cannibals" because they fear it to eventually get into archery season so, they want to take away ALL rights of the crossbow hunters. 

I hope you can understand more by what I mean now!?!

They fight to keep all hunters from hunting small game, all other big game, firearm season of whitetails, hog hunting, predator hunting, bow fishing and anything else. There for, they are anti-hunters. This goes DEEPER than archery season of whitetails and don't you overlook that!

I even bet that they are gonna freak when they find out that the ACF now is sanctioned to shoot at where the "compound" bowhunters have their 3D shoots in South Louisiana, too!


----------



## cynic

thesource said:


> .
> Shame on you, progers. You won't gain any allies by badmouthing bowhunting....you sound like you "mainly hunt with rifles", cause you sure don't act like a bowhunter!


Please step away from the chemicals, You have been exposed..Have you read the post at the beloved BSBA seems as though a great deal of BOWHUNTERS and enthusists have only been able to close the gap with what "a Rifle"....Does that take them out of the category of "bowhunter". I think it is obsurd to think that it is okay to take a 6 yr old out to hunt with a rifle but you can't let him shoot a xbow during archery. How is a "bowhunter" supposed to act? "arrogant, single/narrow minded." Those of you that feel that you are elite because of your stance on the xbow and carry a compound in the woods "Please climb off the pedestal" it doesn't make you any better or more of a man.


----------



## progers

Wasn't there a "bowhunter" here that said:



> Bowhunters are a better group of hunters.



How arrogant single/narrow minded is that?


----------



## thesource

cynic said:


> How is a "bowhunter" supposed to act? "arrogant, single/narrow minded."


That would be the kind of bowhunter bashing I was speaking of....

I owe you one. Please don't be a baby when I deliver it to you.


----------



## cynic

PMantle said:


> I have progers on ignore, so I only see what he says when he is quoted, but I want to respond to the revenue issue. Engelsmung and I could start using a crossbow, and as lifetime license holders, we would not be required to buy another license. I see lots of lifetime stickers on trucks in the parking lots of the NWR's I hunt. Those guys would not be buying another license either. Same with many a gun hunter who would try crossbows. Crossbows would have to attract new hunters, or those not already holding either a lifetime or archery stamp(as stated before, not even sure if there is one)before new money would come into the State's wildlife coffers..


Quick question What kind of law practice ar you in? If you had a client that you new to be guilty would you represent him to the best of your ability or would you have him seek legal counsel elsewhere? I am just wondering how far ethics goes outside of bowhunting..


----------



## cynic

thesource said:


> That would be the kind of bowhunter bashing I was speaking of....
> 
> I owe you one. Please don't be a baby when I deliver it to you.


That was just a question to find out how a true bowhunter is supposed to act. If you take offense to it personally maybe you should do some sole searching..
My motto is "If the truth hurts cry". I have been asked not to get my dander up and retaliate so I will let you get the last word if that's what you need to feel bigger and better than someone else. I have no problem with that.


----------



## thesource

progers said:


> the sorce and Free Range, I think that one of yall, maybe both has stated that you feel that it should be considered in all seasons for all game with the exception of archery season of whitetails. Ok. That is understandable. That does not put YOU GUYS in the "anti-hunter" and "cannibal" group in my opinion. However, the ones who fight it in ANY and ALL seasons for all game excluding archery season for whitetails are the group that I pubically call "anti-hunters" and "cannibals" because they fear it to eventually get into archery season so, they want to take away ALL rights of the crossbow hunters.
> 
> I hope you can understand more by what I mean now!?!



Unacceptable.

I am somewhat sympathetic to your cause, but when you call bow hunters antihunters simply because they disagree with your opinion, you have crossed the line in my opinion. I will support bowhunters first and foremost.

Understand this clearly....you will not gain ANY allies by trashing any bowhunters, regardless of how irritating they may be to your cause. There are many bowhunters who would absolutely accept crossbows outside of bow season, some who would accept crossbows within the bow season....few who will tolerate attacks on fellow bowhunters. If you win your battle but alienate bowhunters, how exactly does that help crossbowmen specifically and hunting in general?


----------



## cynic

thesource said:


> Unacceptable.
> Understand this clearly....you will not gain ANY allies by trashing any bowhunters, regardless of how irritating they may be to your cause. There are many bowhunters who would absolutely accept crossbows outside of bow season, some who would accept crossbows within the bow season....few who will tolerate attacks on fellow bowhunters. If you win your battle but alienate bowhunters, how exactly does that help crossbowmen specifically and hunting in general?


And as a fellow bowhunters haven't you guys bashed us for wanting to use a crossbow? I have taken many deer for many years while hunting and participating in each season and this year I even got one with a xbow. I hunt mostly with a bow but not exclusively. I do consider myself a bowhunter but more than that I do not belittle any one elses choices. Some bowhunters have already alienated themselves from those of us wishing to have a choice. We deserve the same respect that every other hunter deserves..


----------



## progers

thesource said:


> Unacceptable.
> 
> I am somewhat sympathetic to your cause, but when you call bow hunters antihunters simply because they disagree with your opinion, you have crossed the line in my opinion. I will support bowhunters first and foremost.
> 
> Understand this clearly....you will not gain ANY allies by trashing any bowhunters, regardless of how irritating they may be to your cause. There are many bowhunters who would absolutely accept crossbows outside of bow season, some who would accept crossbows within the bow season....few who will tolerate attacks on fellow bowhunters. If you win your battle but alienate bowhunters, how exactly does that help crossbowmen specifically and hunting in general?



I could care less if what you think is unacceptable. That's just your opinion.

I'm not asking for anyone's sympothy. It is some of the others that seek sympothy. 

I am a bowhunter. As I choose to hunt with a bow, also, that makes me a bowhunter. I don't "bash" other hunters because of how they choose to hunt. I only bash anti-hunters and cannibals. If you see that as "bow bashing" then, you must be in the catagory that I speak of and that is your choice.

My battle is to to stop the infighting. If some of the ones who gets offended or their feelings hurt because the infighting is halted then, so be it.

All you are doing now is twisting my words to try and make the descent people sho choose to bowhunt mad at me and that will not work.

That is just a sneaky lawyer tactic. I wonder why there are so many "lawyer" jokes?


----------



## thesource

cynic said:


> And as a fellow bowhunters haven't you guys bashed us for wanting to use a crossbow? I have taken many deer for many years while hunting and participating in each season and this year I even got one with a xbow. I hunt mostly with a bow but not exclusively. I do consider myself a bowhunter but more than that I do not belittle any one elses choices. Some bowhunters have already alienated themselves from those of us wishing to have a choice. We deserve the same respect that every other hunter deserves..


I don't bash you for wanting to use a crossbow - only for wanting to use a crossbow in bow season.

I don't disagree with that crossbow hunters deserve respect as hunters.

But not as bowhunters. I would have far less of a problem with crossbows in general if those who used them did not try to pass themselves off as bowhunters....you are not. You are crossbow hunters - not that there's anything wrong with that.


----------



## cynic

progers said:


> All you are doing now is twisting my words to try and make the descent people sho choose to bowhunt mad at me and that will not work.
> 
> That is just a sneaky lawyer tactic. I wonder why there are so many "lawyer" jokes?


He is not a lawyer


----------



## thesource

progers said:


> My battle is to to stop the infighting. If some of the ones who gets offended or their feelings hurt because the infighting is halted then, so be it.


You are causing as much infighting as you are stopping when you refer to card carrying hunters as "anthunters." You are equally responsible for the acrimony, and I could care less what your opinion of me, personally, is.



progers said:


> That is just a sneaky lawyer tactic. I wonder why there are so many "lawyer" jokes?


Who knows? I'm an engineer, not a lawyer. That's why I enjoy argueing physics with you guys. If you want to argue semantics, I guess we'll have to call JimC.


----------



## cynic

thesource said:


> I don't bash you for wanting to use a crossbow - only for wanting to use a crossbow in bow season.
> 
> I don't disagree with that crossbow hunters deserve respect as hunters.
> 
> But not as bowhunters. I would have far less of a problem with crossbows in general if those who used them did not try to pass themselves off as bowhunters....you are not. You are crossbow hunters - not that there's anything wrong with that.


And another it's not a bow insinuation....Just as those of you using compounds are not bowhunters you are compound bow hunters. That arguement well, is just an arguement. Lets say that bowhunters in general agree that its okay to use a xbow just not in Archery season. Lets find out when it is okay..


----------



## progers

Well, it must have been PMantle that said he was a lawyer.

Sorry dude! 

The only thing you argue is your personal opinions.


Since you are into physics then, prove that ballistically that a crossbow is more equal to a gun than a compund. That is a great project for you. :wink:


----------



## johnk123

*crossbows and archery*

well, i'm new to archery talk. my opinion on crossbow hunting is this. it should be considered a form of archey hunting because you use a type of bow with a string and an arrow. i have used traditional bows and compound bows since i started hunting in 1959, now do to a shoulder injury i can't use anything but a crossbow. i think it is wrong for all hunters no matter what we hunt with to argue amongst ourselfs. The crossbow should be a matter of personal choice, just as whether you use a traditional bow or compound bow. i wish i still had a choice which i don't. as far as i'm concerned the wild game out there is for everyone. Not just a certian group of people and when you start taking sides against a certian group of hunters then you are helping the anti hunting groups.!!!!!!!!!


----------



## thesource

progers said:


> Since you are into physics then, prove that ballistically that a crossbow is more equal to a gun than a compund. That is a great project for you. :wink:


Actually, if you are familiar with statistics and hypothesis testing, you actually can't prove that things are equal, only that there is sufficient evidence to say that they are not the same.

I never said that a crossbow = a gun. I said that a crossbow is not the same as a bow. The devil is in the details.

Would you like to discuss the comparative ballistics of a typical hunting crossbow vs a typical hunting compound? You will learn that the crossbow is advantaged, albeit not by a huge margin....


----------



## cynic

thesource said:


> Actually, if you are familiar with statistics and hypothesis testing, you actually can't prove that things are equal, only that there is sufficient evidence to say that they are not the same.
> 
> I never said that a crossbow = a gun. I said that a crossbow is not the same as a bow. The devil is in the details.
> 
> Would you like to discuss the comparative ballistics of a typical hunting crossbow vs a typical hunting compound? You will learn that the crossbow is advantaged, albeit not by a huge margin....


All of the comparisons it while looks good on paper never seems to figure if the noise factor upon release. Each weapon has its advantages and disadvantages. The two have been compared throughout this debate. While you are a engineer, Does a chemical engineer really have the credentials to critique mechanical equipment?


----------



## thesource

Do you know what a chemical engineer does?

LOL ... its OK if you don't, but its probably not what you think.


----------



## cynic

thesource said:


> Do you know what a chemical engineer does?
> 
> LOL ... its OK if you don't, but its probably not what you think.


I will be willing to bet it's not engineering designs for Bows or Crossbows. While you are right that I do not know exactly what a Chemical engineer does. I am smart enough to know that you don't consult a chemical engineer if your building bridge. Just as my brother is an environmental engineer (he designs retention and wet weather ponds) I wouldn't ask him either


----------



## progers

thesource said:


> Actually, if you are familiar with statistics and hypothesis testing, you actually can't prove that things are equal, only that there is sufficient evidence to say that they are not the same.
> 
> I never said that a crossbow = a gun. I said that a crossbow is not the same as a bow. The devil is in the details.
> 
> Would you like to discuss the comparative ballistics of a typical hunting crossbow vs a typical hunting compound? You will learn that the crossbow is advantaged, albeit not by a huge margin....



I never said you did say that a crossbow=gun. The devil is in the details, you are right.

I asked if you could compare the crossbow to a compound and the crossbow to a rifle ballistically.

There have been many that have said that a crossbow=gun and that is a FACT.

You may not can prove that they are equal, you are right. But, you can find out which one it is more closely related to, right?

You can also determine the margin of the advantage, like you said.

I was asking for your help on a professional level because you would be WAY more qualified than I to make this comparison.


----------



## progers

johnk123 said:


> well, i'm new to archery talk. my opinion on crossbow hunting is this. it should be considered a form of archey hunting because you use a type of bow with a string and an arrow. i have used traditional bows and compound bows since i started hunting in 1959, now do to a shoulder injury i can't use anything but a crossbow. i think it is wrong for all hunters no matter what we hunt with to argue amongst ourselfs. The crossbow should be a matter of personal choice, just as whether you use a traditional bow or compound bow. i wish i still had a choice which i don't. as far as i'm concerned the wild game out there is for everyone. Not just a certian group of people and when you start taking sides against a certian group of hunters then you are helping the anti hunting groups.!!!!!!!!!



Welcome johnk123. It is great to hear opinions from other fellow hunters of Louisiana on this subject.


----------



## progers

LiLWhipJr19 said:


> You should only be able to use a Cross Bow if you're Handicap or over a certain age... I'm from Louisiana Born and raised and thats how it should be...




Welcome LiLWhipJr19. It is great to hear opinions from other fellow hunters of Louisiana on this subject.


----------



## progers

thesource said:


> Do you know what a chemical engineer does?
> 
> LOL ... its OK if you don't, but its probably not what you think.



They cook meth? No, I'm just joking! Just a little humor, sorry! :zip:


----------



## thesource

progers said:


> You may not can prove that they are equal, you are right. But, you can find out which one it is more closely related to, right?


You don't need to be an engineer to determine that.

Ballistically, a crossbow more closely approximates a compound.

Operationally, a crossbow more closely approximates a gun (vice versa, if you want to use the historical perspective).

However.....a centerfire closely approximates an inline MZ, both operationally and ballistically....but we don't let centerfires share the MZ season, do we?


----------



## TNUSA-1

Gentlemen it is not just a mear disagreement. The NABC have made it clear they intend to do away with all things crossbow and have written letters to many large Outfitting Companies to take the crossbow off the market. They are attempting to see that hadicapped hunters use something other than a crossbow, even when it would best suit their needs. They are attempting to have the crossbow delegalized in states where it is already leagal. This can easyly be found in the minutes of the Bowhunters Summit meeting. The BSBA is only following as part of a larger group NABC.

Athough they are attempting to sway outdoor writers and celibrities, it doesn't seem to be working...We are wise to the snake oil salesmen..

Even as we speak more state are allowing the crossbow...mainly based on the simple fact it increases the dwindling population of hunters in general. Within 2 years or less we will have it in Louisiana. Now it would seem that all hunters would be for this, your right the majority are. Judging by our petitions polls and general comments the people want the crossbow. This debate can end now. 

Those who oppose the crossbow are in a loud minority. They are losing ground mainly due to a bad attitude they themselves brought on by infighting with their own kind ie: Hunters. For some reason, they display an "Im better than you attitude," that devested them from "The Jump." The American grass roots wont put up with that. The only reason they have gained any ground at all is by locking out the oppisition like ATA, TNUSA and others. This only brought about even more organizations in to back them up.

This attitude has been labled as "organizational cannibalism," The NABC has created an enemy that doesn't really exsist, that would be we the hunters in general, because they think they are just better. Just ask one of them.

The first thought out of everyone who greets the issue for the first time seems to be the words "Greed" and Selfishness." something else for them to denie while they find another spin. They counter this with with words like Lazy Crossbowmen and compare the crossbows with guns. I wonder why they dont just say all hunters other than their type of bowhunting are really lazy and unsportsmen like, thats what they really want to do you know. Because to them they are just so much better than the rest of us. Can we now compare them to anti-hunters or dont you see the simalarity. If you can't see this, better go get your eyes examined.


The more I look into it, the more I wonder if this group hasn't been paid off somehow by some anti-hunting group, surely not...but it sure looks like it more and more every day. This would be a perfect undercover ploy, if it is we will expose it soon. They even have political analyst to put a negative spin on all things crossbow. Once again I'm going to quote the words of Fred Bear, "If your not working for the promotion of hunting, you are working against it." Fred Bear Archery Company makes a line of Crossbows, and he was the first to say be a "Two Season Hunter." We all know his top student is celibrated bow hunter Ted Nugent...if you want to argue crossbow go talk to the Nuge...see how far you get.

Anyway something to think about.:cocktail:


----------



## cynic

thesource said:


> You don't need to be an engineer to determine that.
> 
> Ballistically, a crossbow more closely approximates a compound.
> 
> Operationally, a crossbow more closely approximates a gun (vice versa, if you want to use the historical perspective).
> 
> However.....a centerfire closely approximates an inline MZ, both operationally and ballistically....but we don't let centerfires share the MZ season, do we?


This is where it gets challenging...Mississippi allows centerfire cartridges whos origin dates before 1900...and they must be used in singleshot breech loading..that said.. What about the last 7 days of early archery, any season allowing firearms/Ml and the late season?


----------



## thesource

TNUSA-1 said:


> The first thought out of everyone who greets the issue for the first time seems to be the words "Greed" and Selfishness." something else for them to denie while they find another spin. They counter this with with words like Lazy Crossbowmen and compare the crossbows with guns. I wonder why they dont just say all hunters other than their type of bowhunting are really lazy and unsportsmen like, thats what they really want to do you know. Because to them they are just so much better than the rest of us. Can we now compare them to anti-hunters or dont you see the simalarity. If you can't see this, better go get your eyes examined.
> 
> 
> The more I look into it, the more I wonder if this group hasn't been paid off somehow by some anti-hunting group, surely not...but it sure looks like it more and more every day. This would be a perfect undercover ploy, if it is we will expose it soon. They even have political analyst to put a negative spin on all things crossbow. Once again I'm going to quote the words of Fred Bear, "If your not working for the promotion of hunting, you are working against it." Fred Bear Archery Company makes a line of Crossbows, and he was the first to say be a "Two Season Hunter." We all know his top student is celibrated bow hunter Ted Nugent...if you want to argue crossbow go talk to the Nuge...see how far you get.
> 
> Anyway something to think about.:cocktail:


My goodness...where to begin with this one. You are lucky Free Range doesn't operate at night. He would rip this six ways from Sunday!

Yet another bowhunter bashing thread....yet somehow y'all do not see the animosity you are creating. Assuming you get what you want, legalized crossbows, you will have made complete enemies of bowhunters in doing it. I do not see how this makes hunting stronger....it leads me to believe that Pope&Young was right - crossbows are indeed the single biggest threat to bowhunting. Bowhunters (and bowhunting's) reputations are being trashed by crossbow organizations.

Do not forget, TRUSA-1. Most bowhunters are not opposed to crossbows, only to crossbows in bow season. That is where your logic disintegrates.

By the way, we're not all star struck groupies that hang on "The Nuge's" every word...who cares what his opinion is on the subject. Make up your own mind.


----------



## thesource

DougK said:


> why do we allow compounds with arrow speeds 300fps +, expandable broadheads, carbon arrows, laser rangefinders, trigger releases, 80% letoff
> 
> in the same season as..
> 
> a longbow shooting wooden arrows finger released and aimed instincitively?


Are you suggesting we set a speed limit for all stringed weapons and then allow them all? (we'll call it restricted string weapon season)

Good idea - What do you suggest - 260fps? 270 fps? Can we turn down an exomax to shoot that slow Doug?


----------



## cynic

PICK ME PICK ME I know the answer to that one. The compound community did the same thing we are.......


----------



## cynic

thesource said:


> Are you suggesting we set a speed limit for all stringed weapons and then allow them all? (we'll call it restricted string weapon season)
> 
> Good idea - What do you suggest - 260fps? 270 fps? Can we turn down an exomax to shoot that slow Doug?


Maybe not that model but they have many at that speed range..Kinda like the restrictor plates in NASCAR great idea can you engineer it?


----------



## Jim C

thesource said:


> My goodness...where to begin with this one. You are lucky Free Range doesn't operate at night. He would rip this six ways from Sunday!
> 
> Yet another bowhunter bashing thread....yet somehow y'all do not see the animosity you are creating. Assuming you get what you want, legalized crossbows, you will have made complete enemies of bowhunters in doing it. I do not see how this makes hunting stronger....it leads me to believe that Pope&Young was right - crossbows are indeed the single biggest threat to bowhunting. Bowhunters (and bowhunting's) reputations are being trashed by crossbow organizations.
> 
> Do not forget, TRUSA-1. Most bowhunters are not opposed to crossbows, only to crossbows in bow season. That is where your logic disintegrates.
> 
> By the way, we're not all star struck groupies that hang on "The Nuge's" every word...who cares what his opinion is on the subject. Make up your own mind.


who cares what anti xbow bowhunters want-in ten years they are going to be the minority (an insignificant small minority)-just like they are in Ohio. That they get upset that they can't keep other archery hunters out of "their season" matters not to me. Pope and Young will be allowing crossbows or they will be irrelevant. I have yet to hear one of these anti xbow bigots tell me why things are better if people hunt with compound bows rather than crossbows


----------



## cynic

Dougk, Look deeper at the bow comparison APA innov. Black mamba 345fps uses bowech cam design. Black knight II 352fps. Parker has 3 this year over 330. They say they are comparing to average hunting compounds. Whos average? Down here where I'm at we have guys making 50yd pass thru's with a compound. It has been said it only takes 17lbs of kinetic energy to pass thru the southern whitetail...Can I ask why all this circular reasoning. Source and co. are offering no solutions to overcome what they call a problem so we need to overlook the comments and continue on with our destiny.


----------



## Jim C

cynic said:


> Dougk, Look deeper at the bow comparison APA innov. Black mamba 345fps uses bowech cam design. Black knight II 352fps. Parker has 3 this year over 330. They say they are comparing to average hunting compounds. Whos average? Down here where I'm at we have guys making 50yd pass thru's with a compound. It has been said it only takes 17lbs of kinetic energy to pass thru the southern whitetail...Can I ask why all this circular reasoning. Source and co. are offering no solutions to overcome what they call a problem so we need to overlook the comments and continue on with our destiny.


their whining about the crossbow's performance is all a facade. There are only two reasons why these people spend so much time bashing xbows and there are only two kinds of bashers-the honest ones and the dishonest ones

1) the honest ones admit that they don't want more people in archery season and since they can't (or use) restrict compounds, they want to draw the line to keep xbows out. SOme of them try to justify it on the grounds that xbows are unfair (which is stupid and easily destroyed nonsense) rather than admit to being selfish while others understand that xbows drop the time cost to ETHICALLY hunt slightly and that means more people

2) the real sick cases are the ones who see bowhunting as their way of life and due to ego or other psychological issues, they think that those who don't follow their bowhunting creed are not only blaspheming their creed, they see xbow archers as disrespecting all that they see as holy.

Facts really don't work with either. With the first group we both agree on the essential fact-xbows=more archery season hunters//. Where we disagree is NOT ON FACTS but whether more archers hunting is good or bad.

as to the second group you can't use facts to argue against a cult or religion any more than you can convince me allah is the divine being with facts


----------



## cynic

There are over 200 2006 model compound bows shooting 300 + fps 21 of which are 320 + fps 8 at 330 + fps. So which do we compare to?


----------



## progers

the source said:


> My goodness...where to begin with this one. You are lucky Free Range doesn't operate at night. He would rip this six ways from Sunday!
> 
> Yet another bowhunter bashing thread....yet somehow y'all do not see the animosity you are creating. Assuming you get what you want, legalized crossbows, you will have made complete enemies of bowhunters in doing it. I do not see how this makes hunting stronger....it leads me to believe that Pope&Young was right - crossbows are indeed the single biggest threat to bowhunting. Bowhunters (and bowhunting's) reputations are being trashed by crossbow organizations.
> 
> Do not forget, TRUSA-1. Most bowhunters are not opposed to crossbows, only to crossbows in bow season. That is where your logic disintegrates.
> 
> By the way, we're not all star struck groupies that hang on "The Nuge's" every word...who cares what his opinion is on the subject. Make up your own mind.



Ok, for starters, that is called a "reply" not a "thread". I don't think that he is worried about Free Range, no offense to Free Range. As he is having much difficulty ripping me and I am just an amature.

If you see that as a "bowbashing" thread then, I would have to say that your reading comprehension skills are nil. If getting the crossbow legalized causes complete enemies out of bowhunters then, those who think that are in need of serious help. The bowhunters that are having their "reputations" trashed are doing it on their own and, it is only a very small percentage of the bowhunters that this applies to.

The crossbow organizations are only asking for respect and equal rights. How is that "trashing" reputations of the bowhunters, unless you would be an anti-hunter?

If most bowhunters are not opposed to crossbows in the other seasons then, they should not have any problem signing the petition I just posted.

We have made up our own minds. That is what led us here. That is what will lead us to victory in the State of Louisiana.

I really don't see you getting any support from the majority of the descent people of the archery community here at this site Bro! As there are 38,706 archers here at this site, you stand alone. What does that mean?


----------



## Marvin

cynic said:


> There are over 200 2006 model compound bows shooting 300 + fps 21 of which are 320 + fps 8 at 330 + fps. So which do we compare to?


 ypu conviently forget those are at IBO speeds. If your gonna compare apples I suggest you head for an orchard. You must also remember those are also registered at 30 inch draws. that alone isolates the speeds to relatively very few people. The crossbow negates that tactical advantage and variation from person to person.


----------



## Jim C

Marvin said:


> ypu conviently forget those are at IBO speeds. If your gonna compare apples I suggest you head for an orchard. You must also remember those are also registered at 30 inch draws. that alone isolates the speeds to relatively very few people. The crossbow negates that tactical advantage and variation from person to person.


which is one of the things I like about crossbows-women and kids aren't at a disadvantage. Its why guys who have issues involving their masculinity are often xbow bashers. They get upset that they don't have an archery advantage over women and kids


----------



## Marvin

Jim C said:


> which is one of the things I like about crossbows-women and kids aren't at a disadvantage. Its why guys who have issues involving their masculinity are often xbow bashers. They get upset that they don't have an archery advantage over women and kids


and it too bad they are not the ones benefiting from this change. actually they are the vast minority. remember they are 98% the same right Jimmy. :wink:


----------



## Jim C

Marvin said:


> and it too bad they are not the ones benefiting from this change. actually they are the vast minority. remember they are 98% the same right Jimmy. :wink:



absolutely true. I know women who are great hunters-they just can't pull the same poundage as I can. Ann Clark and Ann Hoyt have been hunting with ten point crossbows lately. They have forgotten more about bowhunting than most of the antis will ever know about it. I doubt there is a single member of the PBS who could have outshot these two women at their peak-and I mean with barebows no sights


----------



## Marvin

Jim C said:


> absolutely true. I know women who are great hunters-they just can't pull the same poundage as I can. Ann Clark and Ann Hoyt have been hunting with ten point crossbows lately. They have forgotten more about bowhunting than most of the antis will ever know about it. I doubt there is a single member of the PBS who could have outshot these two women at their peak-and I mean with barebows no sights


 are you trying to make some kind of a point? not sure but I did see you made it over 15,000 posts. congrats. I am glad for ann hoyt and ann clark. but its not about them is it Jim.


----------



## progers

MARVIN! Just tha person I wanted to speak with!

marvin, since you are known as a "tough critic", please answer me this if you would.

Does it seem to you that I am bashing all bowhunters by saying the hunters that are completely against crossbows and fight to take away their rights being in any and all seasons, excluding archery season of whitetails, are being anti-hunters and cannibals? 

I would really like to hear yours and others opinions of my statement.

Thanks!
~P~


----------



## Jim C

Marvin said:


> are you trying to make some kind of a point? not sure but I did see you made it over 15,000 posts. congrats. I am glad for ann hoyt and ann clark. but its not about them is it Jim.


Have you ever made a point on crossbows marvin? most of your posting here is clear leghumpin. when a guy claims his name is peter pan on his profile it leads to some interesting speculation about the poster 

the fact is marvin you can whine about xbows till the cows come in, you can make personal comments about me and post lies from Bull site too but the fact is people like you are losing and we are winning and EVERYONE knows that each year people who think like you and source on this issue become less and less relevant (assuming you all were at one time)


----------



## yzcajunman

i would really like to have the choice to hunt with a crossbow in Louisiana. i have shoulder problems and it would be much easier than trying to pull back a compound bow. also i believe that we as ethical hunters have the right to choose the weapon of our choice to harvest our game. we have been hunkered down by many in our lifetime but we as sposrtsman must unite and stand up for our rights to hunt as free men and conform to the game laws in our beloved states. now i will be the first to agree that we dont have the best game management program right now in Louisiana but, the changes are forthcoming and we need to quit griping and arguing about who does what and realize that while we are arguing with each other we are adding fuel to the fire for anti hunters and anti gun nuts!


----------



## cro

i am new here but i would like to let everyone know that i have a handicapp permit to bow hunt in the bayou state. i have had 2 major elbow surgeries and i have just had my first shoulder surgery this monday feb 6st of 06. i can't bow hunt with a compound bow anymore so for me to hunt i have to use a crossbow. i would like to see others be able to hunt with them because i feel that its shoots about the same speed and with the sights being the same if you want to use the pins. i chose the scope so i could make sure that i have a perfect shot at low light times. my wife is starting to get into hunting but she is a small lady and cann't pull back a compound bow but with a xbow and a crank for it she can hunt all season with me and my 6 yr old son. i bring my son hunting with me every chance i get but i would love to get him a crossbow to go hunting with me or my father. but he can't hunt with one for some reason. if a xbow and cbow shoot the same speed and they both shoot ARROWS and you shoot the same distance whats the problem. a xbow weighs 2x the weight of a cbow so there is no advantage carrying it 2 miles in the woods witha 30 pound climber. i would like to see xbows allowed for every hunter that wants to hunt with one.


----------



## yzcajunman

i agree !!! this is not a major request.....im only see jealousy from some people as to the allowance of the crossbow....no valid reasons yet


----------



## Jim C

yzcajunman said:


> i agree !!! this is not a major request.....im only see jealousy from some people as to the allowance of the crossbow....no valid reasons yet



I have been shooting xbows for over 30 years now and I have watched this debate for years and years-and you won't see any valid arguments


----------



## PMantle

cynic said:


> Quick question What kind of law practice ar you in? If you had a client that you new to be guilty would you represent him to the best of your ability or would you have him seek legal counsel elsewhere? I am just wondering how far ethics goes outside of bowhunting..


Huh? What does the question posed have to do with what I posted? FWIW, I do not practice criminal defense, at all.


----------



## PMantle

Jim C said:


> I have been shooting xbows for over 30 years now and I have watched this debate for years and years-and you won't see any valid arguments


The arguments are just as valid as those against centerfire in muzzleloader and those against automatic weapons in centerfire.


----------



## PMantle

DougK said:


> Really?
> 
> How so?
> 
> I hunt frequently with a high performance compound/expadable broadheads/peep site/pin site/release/stabilizer/laser range finder..
> 
> that's decidedly different from carrying a self bow with wooden arrows shot instinctively with broadheads you actually sharpen..
> 
> there is no problem allowing both of these types of archery/bowhunting in the season..


All true, but there is not currently a different season for those in this State. If someone wants to push for a self bow season, more power to them. There are differences in some weapons that have different seasons. There are virtually no differences between other weapons that have difference seasons. It's a big "so what". If you are going to argue that they are no different, then the reasons for other seasons fall too.


----------



## bear13148

You know you x-bow people are always going to say anti-xbow arguments are unsubstantiated and vice versa. But if x-bows are more like a regular bow than a gun then why does Pope & Young, probably the most respected archery organization going state very clearly that an x-bow more closely fits the profile of a gun than a bow and that they have no plans to promote the use of them at any time now or in the future? I suppose that they are just ignorant x-bow bashers like the rest of us then?


----------



## progers

bear13148 said:


> You know you x-bow people are always going to say anti-xbow arguments are unsubstantiated and vice versa. But if x-bows are more like a regular bow than a gun then why does Pope & Young, probably the most respected archery organization going state very clearly that an x-bow more closely fits the profile of a gun than a bow and that they have no plans to promote the use of them at any time now or in the future? I suppose that they are just ignorant x-bow bashers like the rest of us then?




"YOU X-BOW PEOPLE"??? What is that suppose to mean? That sounds prejudice to me.


Pope & Young is steadily loosing respect from alot of people and that is a FACT!

An xbow is more like a gun? Wow, where have we heard that before? Very canned response. I guess you can say that a compound is more like a gun than a longbow and recurve, also!?! 

xbow supporters are not bow bashers in any way. They only want the rights that ALL the other types of weapons have to hunt game with, that's all. How is that "bow bashing"? Please explain...

No one has said anyone is ignorant, that I am aware of anyway. 

Pope and Young was also established for longbows and recuves. Then, compounds made their way in with a 65% maximum let off. Now, they changed that to promote the sales of new advanced compounds. Pope and Young make the rules to support their sponsors. If I killed a 200 class buck with my compound, I would NOT enter it in Pope and Young. I know alot of people who would NOT enter a deer in Pope and Young because they have no respect for them as they go out of their way to bash xbow hunters.


So, if a xbow is more like a gun then, why don't Boone and Crockett allow them in their record books? Geeze, let me think? Oh yea, because the deer was taken with an ARROW as a xbow is ARCHERY EQUIPMENT.

The xbow has it's own record books. They don't need Poop and Dung!

Dude, we need more folks like you posting so the good descent people can see the prejudice that is directed towards the xbow community. Please, keep up the good work! Bring more friends! :wink:


----------



## progers

PMantle said:


> The arguments are just as valid as those against centerfire in muzzleloader and those against automatic weapons in centerfire.



We're not debating MZL and centerfires and besides, automatic weapons are illegal!  





PMantle said:


> All true, but there is not currently a different season for those in this State. If someone wants to push for a self bow season, more power to them. There are differences in some weapons that have different seasons. There are virtually no differences between other weapons that have difference seasons. It's a big "so what". If you are going to argue that they are no different, then the reasons for other seasons fall too.


What you are referring to would be a matter of 2 weeks difference in the MZL/firearm season and NOT BEING ABLE TO USE A XBOW AT ALL! How is there a comparison in what you speak of?


All you can speak of is not having it in archery season! WHY can't it be used in the hunting of ANY and ALL game in the state of Louisiana? You keep avoiding that question! 

PMantle, have you paid your dues to the BSBA yet? Are you a member of the BSBA yet?

The BSBA stance is they are against the crossbow to be used by anyone but handicap and seniors and that is meant for ANY and ALL game. Are you going to support their "anti-hunter" and "cannibalistic" organization?


----------



## cynic

Marvin said:


> ypu conviently forget those are at IBO speeds. If your gonna compare apples I suggest you head for an orchard. You must also remember those are also registered at 30 inch draws. that alone isolates the speeds to relatively very few people. The crossbow negates that tactical advantage and variation from person to person.


That's right Marvin very good those are IBO speeds. A skilled archery with a little practice could learn to hunt with-out adding string silences but the bow would be noisier, a string loopbut-what would keep the arrow from sliding up the string, a rest- but what would keep the arrow being perfectly aligned for exit or falling off the bow. I am going to step out on the limb and assume that you are saying that real COMPOUND BOWHUNTERS need all the extras to make it EASIER to shoot and therefore bowhunters suffer slower speeds. This is not a bashing by xbowers. It is just to show how rediculous some bowhunters  views really are. It is these few that are making bowhunters look bad not us. I would hate it to be said that the few that post on here are representing the bow populus as a whole. ALL bow comparisons even xbows are done at IBO specs. I have also stated before that the xbow is an equalizer for those of us that have shorter draw lengths...next thing is the tactical advantages and variations from person to person. The magic of the xbow 1.unlimited ranges out to the same yardages as most compounds 2. stays draw but weighs more and is much noisier. 3. Movement well you still have to lift both of them to shooting position. It has been stated that the debate is over I agree. The anti's are now just trying for arguement to make it seem we have stooped to there level of hunter choice  bashing. While I may not be an expert, I am one of the few posters that have hunted with both and harvested game with both and have demonstrated the ease of use by both. I do not shoot 3d or any other target tournaments. I hunt living breathing animals so I have realistic practical knowledge as it pertains to hunting and thats what we were debating at one time. THE LEGALIZATION OF THE XBOW FOR HUNTING AND TAKING GAME. This debate was never about who is better than whom because of weapon choice. The anti-xbow group is the ones that have brought this debate to the table. Lets just get back to the debate? One last thing to think about "With all the SKILLS that you the bowhunter have and are unable to harvest a deer, I would invite you to try a crossbow and see if your luck changes" I bet it doesn't...


----------



## thesource

progers said:


> besides, automatic weapons are illegal!


Currently, so are crossbows.


----------



## cynic

thesource said:


> Currently, so are crossbows.


I'm glad to see you use the word CURRENTLY. Which in reality says to me that "You see them coming".


----------



## doctariAFC

thesource said:


> Currently, so are crossbows.


AUtomatic weapons are illegal to hunt with in every state in the Union. This is NOT the case with crossbows. Invalid statement.

Time for the History lesson on Hunting Seasons again, especially in light of a statement about why we have primitive/ specialized implement seasons.

1 - First hunting seasons were established in the early 1900's, as a means to stop the extermination of game animals in the USA. This was primarily done under Theodore Roosevelt's Administration. Sportsmen pushed for seasons with limits. SPortsmen got these passed to help preserve the sports for generations to come.

2 - Archery Season was thefirst speicalized implement season, first intorduced in Wisconsin in the 1930's, widely adopted by most startes by the early 1950's. This movement caused many closed-minded hunters to scream bloody murder over what this new season would do to the expanding deer herds. SInce compound bows were not yet invented, this season was, by default, limited to recurves and long bows. At the time, crossbows were deemed too powerful and too dangerous (and these were dangerous back in the 1950's) to be considered. Couple this with the fact that clubs offering shooting ranges could not get inclusive insurance policies to cover crossbows on their target ranges at the time (did not want to spend more money on a special crossbow policy) it was deemed that only self bows, recurves and long bows would be included in this new season. Reason for the season? Expanded hunting opportunities for hunters looking for a different hunting challenge.

3 - The compound bow was invented in the 1960's, and all holy heck broke loose when hunters began seeking inclusion of this implement in the archery season. To get an understanding of the arguments against compound bows consisted of back then, simply read this thread, seriously. Bear in mind these bows sported maybe a 35% letoff. No releases! The deer would be decimated. Lazy hunters would fill the woods. Its not a real bow. yadayadayada. In NYS, wording of the definition of the bow was changed from "non-mechanical" to hand drawn. What happened after compound bows were introduced? The number of archery hunters in America doubled within 5 - 10 years. Yet, I have yet to hear one complaint about too many compound bow hunters in the woods? None of the doom and gloom that was lamented ever came to pass. IN fact, hunting quality across the Nation continued to steadily rise.

4 - In the 1980's, another traditionalist movement took hold - Black Powder. Deer herds were healthy enough, populations growing, to start introducing special musket seasons. I find it interesting that the black powder season is typically shared with archery, being called in many places the extended season. These firearms were powder-patch-ball, revolutionary war - civil war era firearms designs. None of the doom and gloom surrounding the lamentations and bloviations from the anti-ML group ever came to pass. We now have moved to inline muzzies, sabot and conical slugs, scopes, etc. Again, this season was launched to increase hunter opportunity, not some "traditional" idea. 

5 - Over the past 106+ years, many advances have improved our effectiveness as a predator, but not really. Indeed, no matter what implement is chosen, each hunter still must successfully hunt the game being sought. WHat these advances have done is allowed practiced hunters to more efficiently and cleanly harvest game. 

THis includes compound bows, crossbows, inline MLs, sabot slubs and rifled shotgun barrels, magnum centerfire loads, specially designed ballistic deer slugs for rifles, etc., etc. The specialized seasons themselves provide additional recreational opportunities. How each person feels about the specific seasons are each persons' reasons why the enjoy them, but by no means is one person's attitude or belief applicable to any other hunter.

Today, range insurance will cover vertical and horizontal bows under the same policy. Compound bows have indeed proven to be no more effective as the self bow, in terms of # of deer shot at, rather, it has reduced the wounding rates and lost animal rates where hunters use them. Every issue that the anti-side of this debate has brought forth is utterly decimated by the library of facts thus far presented. 

What I am very interested in seeing are some facts to back up the anti-crossbow argument. Surely, somewhere, someone has some facts to base an opinion upon. We have just yet to see any....


----------



## Jim C

PMantle said:


> The arguments are just as valid as those against centerfire in muzzleloader and those against automatic weapons in centerfire.



that is a stupid argument that has been destroyed several times on this board.

a centerfire rifle has clear advantages-no matter in the hands of novices, average and expert marksmen over a muzzleloader

longer range, not affected by weather, and rapid follow up shots

crossbows have no such advantages

as to automatic weapons=idiotic comparison and guess what, automatic weapons are actually not more effective on single targets over semi autos but i don't have time to edify you as to why


----------



## Jim C

bear13148 said:


> You know you x-bow people are always going to say anti-xbow arguments are unsubstantiated and vice versa. But if x-bows are more like a regular bow than a gun then why does Pope & Young, probably the most respected archery organization going state very clearly that an x-bow more closely fits the profile of a gun than a bow and that they have no plans to promote the use of them at any time now or in the future? I suppose that they are just ignorant x-bow bashers like the rest of us then?



lets see

1) Pope and Young is a joke to many of us due to their elitist anti hunter nonsense

2) Popel and Young will become irrelevant within the next 10 or so years or they will do what they have done several times before-allow stuff as it becomes more popular

3) they didn't consider 80% letoff compounds "legal" at one time-I guess they thought high letoff compounds resembled a gun more than a bow?

If you want to belong to that odious cult feel free to play by their rules. I have no use for them and think their attempts to prevent people from bowhunting is disgusting. If I could wave a magic wand and make that organization disappear, I would do it in a heartbeat


----------



## twogun

thesource said:


> My goodness...where to begin with this one. You are lucky Free Range doesn't operate at night. He would rip this six ways from Sunday!
> 
> Yet another bowhunter bashing thread....yet somehow y'all do not see the animosity you are creating. Assuming you get what you want, legalized crossbows, you will have made complete enemies of bowhunters in doing it. I do not see how this makes hunting stronger....it leads me to believe that Pope&Young was right - crossbows are indeed the single biggest threat to bowhunting. Bowhunters (and bowhunting's) reputations are being trashed by crossbow organizations.
> 
> Do not forget, TRUSA-1. Most bowhunters are not opposed to crossbows, only to crossbows in bow season. That is where your logic disintegrates.
> 
> By the way, we're not all star struck groupies that hang on "The Nuge's" every word...who cares what his opinion is on the subject. Make up your own mind.


You would love to make this a total us against them debate, but that's not the way it is. You try to paint all compound and traditional hunters as victims of the evil crossbow hunters. No one in thses debates criticizes all compound hunters. That's just the way you want to distort it. the compound hunters and groups that get ctiticized are the ones who behave like you, free range, and NYBI. The reality is that many compound hunters don't much care about the issue and will welcome crossbow hunters.


----------



## TNUSA-1

If it looks like an anti-hunter, quaks like an anti-hunter, and argues like an anti-hunter, its probaly an anti-hunter.

Let me be very clear. This small minority of elite bowhunters that pontificate they are so much superior than anyone else, and claim the right to rule the roost, are only taking on the role of anti-hunters...an anti-hunter would be a lot better at it...at least they stick together. The cannibal is much worse as they go against their own kind, in this case any other hunter, bow, gun or concreate block chunker. Again this is much more than a disagreement.

The motto of this group should be "It is not enough that I should succeed, all others must fail."

Lets compare what happened to elitest in history...how about the French Revaloution, "let them eat cake" "Chop Chop."

Since this groupe has totaly alienated itself from the rest of the main stream outdoor community....and taken on that real special anti-hunting attitude in action and in appearence, we will compare them with another groupe..How about the Army. 

What would happen if a Company of soldiers broke away from the rest of the Army on the battle field and set up shop on a hill over looking every one else. The captain claimed that he was the best soldier in the Army and deserved to be general, and refused to follow the rest of the soldiers. 

Well at first the real generals would contact them and attempt to reason with them...but that didnt do any good. Then the little crowing captain starts berating all the generals and other soldiers saying he and his unit are the best and should lead everyone else....Delusional, as if he thinks all the other soldiers will come to his becon call...Arrogant...and probabley believes this himself...selfcentered and greedy.

Even though the captain isnt shooting at the rest of the Army, his views and actions are not responsible.....Therefore when all else fails ...it is concidered mutiny..you might want to through in treason and you might not. But that wont keep the general from calling in a B-52 strike on these yahoos.

In the meantime the real enemy is having a ball watching all this as if they wiped out the unit themselves. This gives them a lot more confidence then they had before and they attack.

Now that stupid captain is not the enemy but he may as well be because he is accomplishing a mission for the enemy by causing confusion and being distroyed himself.

He will always be known as a trator,an idiot or an ego maniac such as Custer, 211 men against 2000 Indians.

So if your not realy an anti-hunter but you are aiding and abbeting anti-hunters, in such a greivous manner as to bring discredit upon your fellow hunters just for exsisting or wishing to exsit, or discriminating against them you are culpable of being an anti-hunter. With this clearly examplified, prove that your not.

So along with your new motto perhaps you anti-hunting anti-crossbow folks might take on the theam song of the Gary Owen.:cocktail: 

Oh did I break the rules...shucks...I guess that will go down in my more infamous acts of defiance starting in grade school ..having prayed in class, being excomunicated from the Pentecostal Church, changing my voter registration to republican, Being kicked off the BSBA web site, Lusting after Charlie's Angels and being fired from the same libral newspaper twice. Right now I can't think of any more shameful acts. But something tells me I'm not finished yet.

Should I appologise ......I think not :cocktail: 

Ok Paul you can let the Belly Dancers back in I'm over my tantrum...:beer:


----------



## progers

Doc, I'm all for less wounding of deer! Also, thanks for that data. I learned alot from your last post.

As I said before, I am not being pushed by any xbow company nor organization. I didn't even know this "battle" was going on til about a month and a half ago until I came across an article from the Assistant Director of BSBA. I din't know this crap was going on with Pope and Young til I went to their web site after an xbow basher made a comment about P&Y being against xbows in this very debate. All my descision that I have made that led me hear are from my own understandings of the events that have happened.

I mainly gun hunted all my life but, spent several years bow hunting. I have my reasons for quitting bow hunting and I can tell you, LAZY ain't in my vocabulary. My bow hunting partner got killed in a car accident and I had to let the bow go to let him go, if you can understand. So, I get offented for being called a bow basher and an xbow pusher as I am neither.

I am just a hunter of the woods who loves the commrodery of it all more than anything. It truly saddens my what I see in the compound bow hunting community today. AsI said it is a small percent of them, very small but, the damage and the pain they cause others need to stop. And, it needed to stop YESTERDAY!

Anyway, as I see most everyone here as a new found friend, I thought I would share that. And please excuse my spelling as I have just woke up. 

Hava a good day! 
~P~


----------



## progers

TNUSA-1 said:


> If it looks like an anti-hunter, quaks like an anti-hunter, and argues like an anti-hunter, its probaly an anti-hunter.
> 
> Let me be very clear. This small minority of elite bowhunters that pontificate they are so much superior than anyone else, and claim the right to rule the roost, are only taking on the role of anti-hunters...an anti-hunter would be a lot better at it...at least they stick together. The cannibal is much worse as they go against their own kind, in this case any other hunter, bow, gun or concreate block chunker. Again this is much more than a disagreement.
> 
> The motto of this group should be "It is not enough that I should succeed, all others must fail."
> 
> Lets compare what happened to elitest in history...how about the French Revaloution, "let them eat cake" "Chop Chop."
> 
> Since this groupe has totaly alienated itself from the rest of the main stream outdoor community....and taken on that real special anti-hunting attitude in action and in appearence, we will compare them with another groupe..How about the Army.
> 
> What would happen if a Company of soldiers broke away from the rest of the Army on the battle field and set up shop on a hill over looking every one else. The captain claimed that he was the best soldier in the Army and deserved to be general, and refused to follow the rest of the soldiers.
> 
> Well at first the real generals would contact them and attempt to reason with them...but that didnt do any good. Then the little crowing captain starts berating all the generals and other soldiers saying he and his unit are the best and should lead everyone else....Delusional, as if he thinks all the other soldiers will come to his becon call...Arrogant...and probabley believes this himself...selfcentered and greedy.
> 
> Even though the captain isnt shooting at the rest of the Army, his views and actions are not responsible.....Therefore when all else fails ...it is concidered mutiny..you might want to through in treason and you might not. But that wont keep the general from calling in a B-52 strike on these yahoos.
> 
> In the meantime the real enemy is having a ball watching all this as if they wiped out the unit themselves. This gives them a lot more confidence then they had before and they attack.
> 
> Now that stupid captain is not the enemy but he may as well be because he is accomplishing a mission for the enemy by causing confusion and being distroyed himself.
> 
> He will always be known as a trator,an idiot or an ego maniac such as Custer, 211 men against 2000 Indians.
> 
> So if your not realy an anti-hunter but you are aiding and abbeting anti-hunters, in such a greivous manner as to bring discredit upon your fellow hunters just for exsisting or wishing to exsit, or discriminating against them you are culpable of being an anti-hunter. With this clearly examplified, prove that your not.
> 
> So along with your new motto perhaps you anti-hunting anti-crossbow folks might take on the theam song of the Gary Owen.:cocktail:
> 
> Oh did I break the rules...shucks...I guess that will go down in my more infamous acts of defiance starting in grade school ..having prayed in class, being excomunicated from the Pentecostal Church, changing my voter registration to republican, Being kicked off the BSBA web site, Lusting after Charlie's Angels and being fired from the same libral newspaper twice. Right now I can't think of any more shameful acts. But something tells me I'm not finished yet.
> 
> Should I appologise ......I think not :cocktail:
> 
> Ok Paul you can let the Belly Dancers back in I'm over my tantrum...:beer:



OOOHH! I remember Charlie's Angels! :tongue: 

Your Army story reminds me of what happens in all scary movies!?! "Hey! Let's split up! You go that way and I go this way then, we both get killed because we don't have each others back!" I seen that movie a thousand times. 

I can tell you, I will get their back if they get mine. And the lesson learned is that we should all stick together. Strength is in numbers. :wink:


----------



## twogun

*



The specialized seasons themselves provide additional recreational opportunities.

Click to expand...

*This is the true spirit and original intent of the conservation movement. this is why we have hunting seasons. It's all about preserving our hunting natural resources to maximize opportunity and use.




> "To waste, to destroy our natural resources, to skin and exhaust the land instead of *using it so as to increase its usefulness*, will result in undermining in the days of our children the very prosperity which we ought by right to hand down to them *amplified and developed."*
> 
> 
> Theodore Roosevelt
> Message to Congress, Dec 1907
> Founder of the Boone and Crockett Club


----------



## Marvin

progers said:


> MARVIN! Just tha person I wanted to speak with!
> 
> marvin, since you are known as a "tough critic", please answer me this if you would.
> 
> Does it seem to you that I am bashing all bowhunters by saying the hunters that are completely against crossbows and fight to take away their rights being in any and all seasons, excluding archery season of whitetails, are being anti-hunters and cannibals?
> 
> I would really like to hear yours and others opinions of my statement.
> 
> Thanks!
> ~P~


P, sorry I could not address this soon. Had to file through the factless madness to find it. 

The simple answer yes. Since when did I get labeled a "tough critic":tongue: ? man that sure is a step up from anti hunter. if you would like a further explaination I would be glad to give it. I just don't feel it necessary to type it all out at the moment.(I want to wait for a page or two untill the ruffling of feathers calms down)  I don't think that anti hunter is an appropriate comment....its more like "Pro archery standards" I have MANY years of experience with the crossbow and the crossbow hunterr. I will say that I am sure that the "crossbow archer" definition probably changes as we get out and away from the big cities and the type that dwell there. They are a different breed of person compared to country folk. Lets not try to cover that up. I wish it wasn't true but it is. You can plainly se eteh difference in two crossbow posters here Jim and Twogun. Jim, more of a city slicker and Twogun is a country person. two seperate attitudes from two totally different backgrounds. I don't wish my experiences on anyone and I wish they were different because unfortunately they represent me a a bowhunter in ohio. What they do DIRECTLY effects me and other peoples(landowners) attitudes toward hunters. Are there good crossbow people out there? I am not stupid enough to think that there aren't. I just wish I could run into a few more of them and a lot less of the undesireables. Now I know Doug and Jim are going to run to the defense of Oh so your saying there are not compound users like that....again not stupid enough to think that there aren't but I personally have not run into them. Do I see them at the range? Yes. But I never see a crossbow guy at a range either. progers I have a question for you. is it okay to have standards or requirements for participation?( lets keep it general and not use senseless examples like New York (which i do not support there definitions BTW)


----------



## Jim C

No one knows if Marvin has anything to do with archery or bowhunting. Most of his posts are directed against crossbow advocates and I have never seen anything that remotely resembles learned discussions of archery techniques or equipment. I like the city slicker comment from him. Like most things he says relevant to me-its wrong


----------



## progers

Thanks for your reply Marvin.



> is it okay to have standards or requirements for participation?


Participation of WHAT??? Hunting?

Also, I apologize to all innocent parties who I have offended for throwing "anti-hunter" around. My meaning is, the ones who fight the use of xbow in ALL seasons of ALL game are the ones I was referring to as they are againt persons hunting any game with an xbow therefore, I feel they are anti-hunters, thus meaning against hunting of ALLl game with the crossbow. I still stand by the anti-hunter statement with these individuals.


----------



## Jim C

progers said:


> Thanks for your reply Marvin.
> 
> 
> 
> Participation of WHAT??? Hunting?
> 
> Also, I apologize to all innocent parties who I have offended for throwing "anti-hunter" around. My meaning is, the ones who fight the use of xbow in all seasons of all game are the ones I was referring to as they are agains persons hunting any game with an xbow therefore, I feel they are anti-hunters, thus meaning against hunting of all game with the crossbow. I still stand by that.



good point-you can be a hunter yourself and an anti hunter-european nobility was as keen about hunting as they were about hanging commoners who hunted. You can be a gun owner and a gun hater-Jay Rockefeller admitted he owned an AR-15 but strongly supported clinton's assault weapon ban. Rich elitists often own guns but don't want average people to do so.

most of the PBS would just as soon prevent anyone who doesn't belong to their cult from being in "their season"


----------



## Marvin

progers said:


> Thanks for your reply Marvin.
> 
> 
> 
> Participation of WHAT??? Hunting?
> 
> Also, I apologize to all innocent parties who I have offended for throwing "anti-hunter" around. My meaning is, the ones who fight the use of xbow in ALL seasons of ALL game are the ones I was referring to as they are againt persons hunting any game with an xbow therefore, I feel they are anti-hunters, thus meaning against hunting of ALLl game with the crossbow. I still stand by the anti-hunter statement with these individuals.



hunting, golf, baseball, life etc. it is a general question.


----------



## progers

Jim C said:


> No one knows if Marvin has anything to do with archery or bowhunting. Most of his posts are directed against crossbow advocates and I have never seen anything that remotely resembles learned discussions of archery techniques or equipment. I like the city slicker comment from him. Like most things he says relevant to me-its wrong



Jim, knowone knows that about hardly anyone here. It is just a "good faith" system. I can only vouch persoanlly for about 4 people here.

Are you a city slicker? LOL!


----------



## Marvin

Jim C said:


> good point-you can be a hunter yourself and an anti hunter-european nobility was as keen about hunting as they were about hanging commoners who hunted. You can be a gun owner and a gun hater-Jay Rockefeller admitted he owned an AR-15 but strongly supported clinton's assault weapon ban. Rich elitists often own guns but don't want average people to do so.
> 
> most of the PBS would just as soon prevent anyone who doesn't belong to their cult from being in "their season"


 as you can from my description of you...i not that far off...


----------



## progers

Marvin said:


> hunting, golf, baseball, life etc. it is a general question.



yes but, standard of different activities seen by different people will be in different perspective.

Standard of Hunters is Ethics:

My personal definition if Hunting Ethics is: to be respectful of wildlife the land and all sportsman alike while in the field and beyond.

With that being said, we see alot of disrespect going towards the ENTIRE crossbow community. That is just like the "anti-hunters" saying ALL hunters are bad because of the few "bad apples", if you know what I mean and I think you do.


----------



## Jim C

Marvin said:


> as you can from my description of you...i not that far off...



you are a liar marvin-your profile is a lie and you are to afraid to identify yourself 

there are at least 100 people who can vouch for me on this forum including "RecordKeeper" "Joe M", "G33K", JDES, and "Revival". You have no such credibility.


----------



## Jim C

progers said:


> Jim, knowone knows that about hardly anyone here. It is just a "good faith" system. I can only vouch persoanlly for about 4 people here.
> 
> Are you a city slicker? LOL!



Most of the regulars on the other forums are well known in archery circles. You go to NFAA louisville, Vegas or the ATA show and many of the most prolific posters are there. I have seen Brad several times promoting Ten Point products at trade shows. "Spectre" is a regular at major shoots. Chris Olsen-Record Keeper-was on the same bale with me at NFAA Louisville along with INKY (Brian Smith). Joe M and "Psychocop" have been at numerous fita tournaments with me as has "G33K". OBT is a regular at vegas and "Willie" has been spotted at the Excalibur booth at the ATA show several times.

Marvin-that isn't his real name-has no evidence of having any thing to do with archery and no one on this board knows him


----------



## progers

Jim C said:


> Most of the regulars on the other forums are well known in archery circles. You go to NFAA louisville, Vegas or the ATA show and many of the most prolific posters are there. I have seen Brad several times promoting Ten Point products at trade shows. "Spectre" is a regular at major shoots. Chris Olsen-Record Keeper-was on the same bale with me at NFAA Louisville along with INKY (Brian Smith). Joe M and "Psychocop" have been at numerous fita tournaments with me as has "G33K". OBT is a regular at vegas and "Willie" has been spotted at the Excalibur booth at the ATA show several times.
> 
> Marvin-that isn't his real name-has no evidence of having any thing to do with archery and no one on this board knows him



Ya lost me there Jim! I hear the Charlie Brown teacher on that one! WAAP WAAP, WAAP WAAP WAAP WAAP!  No disrespect intended.

Sorry Bro! I know of Excalibur and ATA but, not personally. 

No one knows me here, either. Well, about 4 people.


----------



## Marvin

progers said:


> yes but, standard of different activities seen by different people will be in different perspective.
> 
> Standard of Hunters is Ethics:
> 
> My personal definition if Hunting Ethics is: to be respectful of wildlife the land and all sportsman alike while in the field and beyond.
> 
> With that being said, we see alot of disrespect going towards the ENTIRE crossbow community. That is just like the "anti-hunters" saying ALL hunters are bad because of the few "bad apples", if you know what I mean and I think you do.


So you agree standards are okay. Good. Well I have respectfully ask this question. Why can't YOU respect the standards as set by the bowhunting community? Currenty P&Y are the only group that represents the bowhunting community only. I do know what you mean about the bad apples. Some might think your one :wink: Don't worry I don't I also Know what your are saying about the disrespect towards the crossbow community but I see it is amply reapplied right back to them. So who is right and who is the better "community" ? i can't say I am really proud of their camp to be honest. I cannot see a justification for your cause because of the continual disrespect you show back. its okay to disagree. not a problem. My stance is not full aligned with P&Y. But P&Y has got us this far and it is my feelings that they will get us through this since I can see no justified reason the crossbow deserves a fair chance due to the lack of respect for what P&Y have done up to this point for bowhunters. I am not blind but when backed in a corner my vote will go to the ones who have done the work and put forth the effort for bowhunting. What has teh crossbow community done for me? I will read it and evaluate if if there is anything. My feelings don't have to TOTALLY align with them to support them. I feel the crossbow community has pretty much thrown them under the bus. Just like Doc has asked several times, bring facts to change their minds not some personal vendetta. that was not directed at you P but a general statement. I am a republican, but i feel they have some dirty laundry issues i don't agree with but i ain't going to vote for hillary any time soon either. Just look at DJH posts on a lot of issues. when I read what he writes, it is apparant he feels he is owed something. Hunting can go away if the right people get elected.


----------



## Jim C

progers said:


> Ya lost me there Jim! I hear the Charlie Brown teacher on that one! WAAP WAAP, WAAP WAAP WAAP WAAP!
> 
> Sorry Bro! I know of Excalibur and ATA but, not personally.
> 
> No one knows me here, either. Well, about 4 people.



while you don't have a profile you aren't doing anything to camoflauge who you are and you are not a long time poster. You also don't leg hump other posters either


----------



## Marvin

Jim C said:


> You also don't leg hump other posters either


can I get you a trojan or something else???:wink: its a joke lighten up you bitter old man


----------



## Free Range

You know I’m getting pretty tired of this, “the deer isn’t just for a certain group of hunters”. I defy anyone to find a quote where anyone said no one put bow hunters can kill deer, this is a direct challenge to all of you pro x-bow guys either find the quote or shut up. We have never been about keeping hunters out of the woods, there is plenty of opportunity for any and everyone to hunt deer if they want to. If you can’t find a time or a season to hunt in then that is your problem, because there is ample opportunity for you to do so. 
Also I do not know the official stance of the P&Y club and maybe I missed their statement where they said no x-bow in any season, but as of right now I don’t believe that to be true. I’m sure one of you guys can show me a quote by them that said they are but I haven’t seen it. 



> By Progers
> Dude, go back and read the posts from the anti-crossbow hunters on this topic. They say "my deer" and "my woods" many many times. That is where I got it from. As a matter a fact, I can probably go dig it up where YOU said it!


Got any money you would like to bet on that? In fact I don’t believe anyone said my deer, we have said archery season, belongs to archers, just as gun season belongs to gun hunters, just as ML season belongs to ML hunters, just as x-bow season should belong to x-bow hunters. 
Can you not see how hypocritical it is to be ok with the separation of seasons and then call us anti hunter and cannibals for not wanting to allow the x-bow in archery season?
I’m pretty much done arguing with you, about your opinion vs mine, if you have some facts bring them to the table. Calling organizations that have done more for bowhunting then all of the target archery org’s you and Jim like to hold up as the end all of what should be allowed in bowhunting season have done combined, is not bringing any facts to this debate. 



> By TNUSA-1
> Let me be very clear. This small minority of elite bowhunters that pontificate they are so much superior than anyone else, and claim the right to rule the roost, are only taking on the role of anti-hunters...an anti-hunter would be a lot better at it...at least they stick together. The cannibal is much worse as they go against their own kind, in this case any other hunter, bow, gun or concreate block chunker. Again this is much more than a disagreement.


I guess by this you believe there should be one season regardless of weapon you choose to hunt with?

How about this, you have a great army of men, they strive to be the best they can, the run, they lift weights, they work out for hours, they go without sleep, they swim across clod rivers, they become the very best fighting men they can become. 
Then someone comes along and says, “you know I sure would like to be one of those guys, but I just can’t handle the strenuous requirements they impose.” “and not only that but it really hurts my feelings when that leader yells at me, I would like them to cut that out too”. Well enough people buy into this weakening of the military so more can have the same opportunity. Then one day someone says “you know what, it’s not really nice to spy on other countries” so we cut back on our National security by eliminating most of our ability to foresee what the enemy is up to. Then one day because we are so weak and so blinded some group that wants to tear us apart flies two plans into the world trade center. Now I’m not saying these people that weakened us are the enemy but they might as well be because the outcome is the same. 



> By Progers
> Also, I apologize to all innocent parties who I have offended for throwing "anti-hunter" around. My meaning is, the ones who fight the use of xbow in ALL seasons of ALL game are the ones I was referring to as they are againt persons hunting any game with an xbow therefore, I feel they are anti-hunters, thus meaning against hunting of ALLl game with the crossbow. I still stand by the anti-hunter statement with these individuals.


So would you say that people that want to exclude the use of any weapon in any season is anti hunter?


----------



## progers

Marvin said:


> So you agree standards are okay. Good. Well I have respectfully ask this question. Why can't YOU respect the standards as set by the bowhunting community? Currenty P&Y are the only group that represents the bowhunting community only. I do know what you mean about the bad apples. Some might think your one :wink: Don't worry I don't I also Know what your are saying about the disrespect towards the crossbow community but I see it is amply reapplied right back to them. So who is right and who is the better "community" ? i can't say I am really proud of their camp to be honest. I cannot see a justification for your cause because of the continual disrespect you show back. its okay to disagree. not a problem. My stance is not full aligned with P&Y. But P&Y has got us this far and it is my feelings that they will get us through this since I can see no justified reason the crossbow deserves a fair chance due to the lack of respect for what P&Y have done up to this point for bowhunters. I am not blind but when backed in a corner my vote will go to the ones who have done the work and put forth the effort for bowhunting. What has teh crossbow community done for me? I will read it and evaluate if if there is anything. My feelings don't have to TOTALLY align with them to support them. I feel the crossbow community has pretty much thrown them under the bus. Just like Doc has asked several times, bring facts to change their minds not some personal vendetta. that was not directed at you P but a general statement. I am a republican, but i feel they have some dirty laundry issues i don't agree with but i ain't going to vote for hillary any time soon either. Just look at DJH posts on a lot of issues. when I read what he writes, it is apparant he feels he is owed something. Hunting can go away if the right people get elected.


For one, the "bowhunting community" sets their OWN STANDARDS to benifit themselves. Standards should be set by the whole "football" league, not just one team!


----------



## Jim C

Marvin said:


> can I get you a trojan or something else???:wink: its a joke lighten up you bitter old man



You are the joke marvin-your cheap shot about my wife's former shop (posted by some guy no one ever remembers being there) shows what sort of person you are. You are the one who is bitter because your self hatred about your own archery skills or standing as an "archer" (LOL) is what fuels you misery and loathing about xbow archery hunters


----------



## progers

Jim C said:


> while you don't have a profile you aren't doing anything to camoflauge who you are and you are not a long time poster. You also don't leg hump other posters either



WHAT?????

And it's camouflage, not camoflauge.

GEEZE! Excuse me for being new! 15K+ posts!?!? Lots of free time there Bro!


----------



## Jim C

progers said:


> WHAT?????
> 
> And it's camouflage, not camoflauge.
> 
> GEEZE! Excuse me for being new! 15K+ posts!?!? Lots of free time there Bro!


I wasn't criticizing you and I have years and years in archery and much more than crossbows.


----------



## PMantle

Jim C said:


> that is a stupid argument that has been destroyed several times on this board.
> 
> a centerfire rifle has clear advantages-no matter in the hands of novices, average and expert marksmen over a muzzleloader
> 
> longer range, not affected by weather, and rapid follow up shots
> 
> crossbows have no such advantages
> 
> as to automatic weapons=idiotic comparison and guess what, automatic weapons are actually not more effective on single targets over semi autos but i don't have time to edify you as to why



Wrong wrong wrong wrong. In the current state of things, and as it pertains to La., Centerfire has no advantages over ML's. If crossbows have no advantages, then children, women and the injured or crippled should NEVER show up in an argument again. You keep using the word destroyed. I don't think it means what you think it means.


----------



## Jim C

PMantle said:


> Wrong wrong wrong wrong. In the current state of things, and as it pertains to La., Centerfire has no advantages over ML's. If crossbows have no advantages, then children, women and the injured or crippled should NEVER show up in an argument again. You keep using the word destroyed. I don't think it means what you think it means.


I don't think you want to get into a contest as to whose education or vocabulary is better but the fact is while xbows have ADVANTAGES over compound bows that make them MORE SUITABLE for women etc, they are not in the grand scheme of things an ADVANTAGE OVER COMPOUND BOWS.

semi auto rifles have advantages over bolt guns. Yet in many instances, a bolt action rifle has advantages over semi autos. same with a lever vs a slide action. 

as to your claim about muzzleloaders I will just laugh at that. If you were speaking the truth then there would be no reason for the military to ever have given up the brown bess


----------



## doctariAFC

Settle down folks... Thanks


----------



## Marvin

Jim C said:


> I wasn't criticizing you and I have years and years in archery and much more than crossbows.


city slicker :wink: I am crossbow shooter hear me roar.

** :nono: This is uncalled for Marvin. Drop the personal attacks or an EOP action shall be initiated... doctariAFC **


----------



## PMantle

Jim C said:


> I don't think you want to get into a contest as to whose education or vocabulary is better but the fact is while xbows have ADVANTAGES over compound bows that make them MORE SUITABLE for women etc, they are not in the grand scheme of things an ADVANTAGE OVER COMPOUND BOWS.
> 
> semi auto rifles have advantages over bolt guns. Yet in many instances, a bolt action rifle has advantages over semi autos. same with a lever vs a slide action.
> 
> as to your claim about muzzleloaders I will just laugh at that. If you were speaking the truth then there would be no reason for the military to ever have given up the brown bess


Nice. I did not know the military's sole purpose was to shoot deer from a stand in southern woods. Your style wouldn't be so sad if you were uneducated. Coming from you though, it is simply a shame.


----------



## Marvin

progers said:


> For one, the "bowhunting community" sets their OWN STANDARDS to benifit themselves. Standards should be set by the whole "football" league, not just one team!


 P, again i must ask is there another group out there that solely look sout to protect the bowhunting community? Show me brother and I will look. The standards are set for everyone. Nobody benefots more than another person who wants to pick up a bow. just as freerange said. ample opportunity for able bodied individuals abound. Jim himself said he could have someone ready to bowhunt witha compound in a few hours. If you solely wish to change things for handicapped people then by all means you have an friend someone to help further your cause. here's the neat part, if you wanna shoot a bow your in the league!! welcome all who wish to participate. Yes there are excluders out there who don't even want the handicapped to participate. if it came down to brass tacks on the issue, they would be the severe minority. I am not a huge gun hunter. I try to stay out of their issues when they don't effect me. if I participate, i follow their rules because its their team and their league. Just because you feel the rules are not right does not give you the right to thow them under the bus. Again, like Doc said the facts will be what they are. and the truth shall set you free. thats why we are tryin to get into the numbers to see what the Truth really is. Not some personal agenda


----------



## progers

Jim C said:


> I wasn't criticizing you and I have years and years in archery and much more than crossbows.



That's kewl Bro. I wasn't meaning to criticize you either. I'm sure that you do have more experience than I. That's why I looked to you to point the differences in the bows.

I can tell you that I bought a compound one morning, shot it for about an hour and killed my first buck with it that evening. It was easy, as far as the equipment goes. It was luck to have the buck present the perfect shot. 




PMantle said:


> Wrong wrong wrong wrong. In the current state of things, and as it pertains to La., Centerfire has no advantages over ML's.


Wrong wrong wrong wrong! Mutiple shots for one. Lighter projectile for another meaning better accuracy at a futher distance. There is 2 things.

Plus, this is a "crossbow" debate, I thought!?!


----------



## progers

Marvin said:


> P, again i must ask is there another group out there that solely look sout to protect the bowhunting community? Show me brother and I will look. The standards are set for everyone. Nobody benefots more than another person who wants to pick up a bow. just as freerange said. ample opportunity for able bodied individuals abound. Jim himself said he could have someone ready to bowhunt witha compound in a few hours. If you solely wish to change things for handicapped people then by all means you have an friend someone to help further your cause. here's the neat part, if you wanna shoot a bow your in the league!! welcome all who wish to participate. Yes there are excluders out there who don't even want the handicapped to participate. if it came down to brass tacks on the issue, they would be the severe minority. I am not a huge gun hunter. I try to stay out of their issues when they don't effect me. if I participate, i follow their rules because its their team and their league. Just because you feel the rules are not right does not give you the right to thow them under the bus. Again, like Doc said the facts will be what they are. and the truth shall set you free. thats why we are tryin to get into the numbers to see what the Truth really is. Not some personal agenda


ATA, they support longbows, recurves, compounds and xbows - all archers with no bias.


----------



## bear13148

How is it that the only people saying P&Y has lost their respect and is no longer a "good" organization are the pro crossbow people? It sounds to me that anyone who disagrees with your way of thinking is now evil and not to be respected, but if they were to change their stance on the use of crossbows you would jump right back on the the P&Y bandwagon. I would like to get behind you people on some of your points but when I keep reading these childish posts which all pretty much say the same thing, that is if you agree with me you're alright, if you don't you have no clue what the hell your talking about, I just can't bring myself to do it. Try putting a concerted effort into making crossbows legal in your areas instead of just whining on Archerytalk about all the people that disagree with you and maybe you would find people a little bit more understanding.


----------



## Jim C

bear13148 said:


> How is it that the only people saying P&Y has lost their respect and is no longer a "good" organization are the pro crossbow people? It sounds to me that anyone who disagrees with your way of thinking is now evil and not to be respected, but if they were to change their stance on the use of crossbows you would jump right back on the the P&Y bandwagon. I would like to get behind you people on some of your points but when I keep reading these childish posts which all pretty much say the same thing, that is if you agree with me you're alright, if you don't you have no clue what the hell your talking about, I just can't bring myself to do it. Try putting a concerted effort into making crossbows legal in your areas instead of just whining on Archerytalk about all the people that disagree with you and maybe you would find people a little bit more understanding.



The P&Y cult created a coalition designed to eradicate the use of crossbows in archery seasons throughout the country. That is an anti hunting position and its CHILDISH. I would not jump on the P&Y bandwagon because I think their attitude on "trophies" is deleterious to hunting in the long run


----------



## progers

bear13148 said:


> How is it that the only people saying P&Y has lost their respect and is no longer a "good" organization are the pro crossbow people? It sounds to me that anyone who disagrees with your way of thinking is now evil and not to be respected, but if they were to change their stance on the use of crossbows you would jump right back on the the P&Y bandwagon. I would like to get behind you people on some of your points but when I keep reading these childish posts which all pretty much say the same thing, that is if you agree with me you're alright, if you don't you have no clue what the hell your talking about, I just can't bring myself to do it. Try putting a concerted effort into making crossbows legal in your areas instead of just whining on Archerytalk about all the people that disagree with you and maybe you would find people a little bit more understanding.



I say that as I am a bowhunter, not as someone who supports the rights of the crossbow. I say that as a hunter who respects ALL those who respects one another. Pope&Young, to my knowledge, formed the NABC to do their dirty work for them so they can remain with "clean hands". 

if they publically apologized to the crossbow community, yes, I would probably support them. Since I have never "actively" supported them, there could be no "jumping back on the band wagon now, could there"????

Bro, what we are doing is far beyound Archery Talk as you will see over the next few months if you live in LA. We have already arranged several seminars with several guest speakers from people with hunting shows on the Outdoor Channel. We have already received several thousand signatures on the petitions just in the past week and a half. We are already being interviewed by magazines. We are already speaking with news producers and reporters from TV stations thruout LA. We doing alot more than whinning. You shall see soon enough! :wink: This my friend, is a promise.


----------



## progers

Marvin said:


> P, again i must ask is there another group out there that solely look sout to protect the bowhunting community? Show me brother and I will look. The standards are set for everyone. Nobody benefots more than another person who wants to pick up a bow. just as freerange said. ample opportunity for able bodied individuals abound. Jim himself said he could have someone ready to bowhunt witha compound in a few hours. If you solely wish to change things for handicapped people then by all means you have an friend someone to help further your cause. here's the neat part, if you wanna shoot a bow your in the league!! welcome all who wish to participate. Yes there are excluders out there who don't even want the handicapped to participate. if it came down to brass tacks on the issue, they would be the severe minority. I am not a huge gun hunter. I try to stay out of their issues when they don't effect me. if I participate, i follow their rules because its their team and their league. Just because you feel the rules are not right does not give you the right to thow them under the bus. Again, like Doc said the facts will be what they are. and the truth shall set you free. thats why we are tryin to get into the numbers to see what the Truth really is. Not some personal agenda



Marvin, let me bring something else to your attention. Now, I'm still rusty with all these acronyms so, I will try to get this right. Some of this is just speculation but, strong speculation none the less.

Ok, Pope and Young formed the NABC. The NABC has burned the bridge with ATA because ATA supports crossbows along with all other archers. The BSBA, here in LA is associated with the NABC. Now, down at Ft. Polk in Leesville, at the 3D range, the BSBA jsut made a point to get the ASA sanctioned there and NOT the ATA. Why? Because the ASA is an organization that doesn't support crossbows, to my knowledge and they have alot to do with 3D shoots. Hmmm, we're talking about a 3D course at Ft. Polk. Something smells fishy. Anyway, that is all cool now because the AFC jsut got sanctioned at Ft. Polk and now crossbow 3D shootes can shoot along with the compound 3D shooters. Something tells me they won't be happy with that.

Also, I joined the BSBA forum undercover and asked them if I could come shoot 3D targets with me. Guess how that went over? I got banned! 

Marvin, this goes much futher than hunting whitetails during archery season. That is where my concern comes in. As I have stated, I can understand completely why they want to fight crossbows in archery season, to a certain point. But, they don't stop there.

Most of my comments go towards the BSBA of LA, I will admit that as I do not know much about other states. 


Can someone explain more about the ASA so I may understand better of what is really going on?


----------



## Jim C

PMantle said:


> Nice. I did not know the military's sole purpose was to shoot deer from a stand in southern woods. Your style wouldn't be so sad if you were uneducated. Coming from you though, it is simply a shame.


Lets take a poll concerning education

I maintain that a centerfire rifle has several advantages over muzzle loaders (other than perhaps the fact you can buy a MZL through the mail) and NO Disadvantages in terms of performance

you claim otherwise

who do you think is going to be judged unlearned?

can you prove that a crossbow has the same cumulative obvious advantages over compounds-Oh wait, you haven't hunted with both bows as I have


----------



## PMantle

Jim C said:


> Lets take a poll concerning education
> 
> I maintain that a centerfire rifle has several advantages over muzzle loaders (other than perhaps the fact you can buy a MZL through the mail) and NO Disadvantages in terms of performance
> 
> you claim otherwise
> 
> who do you think is going to be judged unlearned?
> 
> can you prove that a crossbow has the same cumulative obvious advantages over compounds-Oh wait, you haven't hunted with both bows as I have


You can make it about you and me all you want. It doesn't advance your infantile position.

** :nono: Stop the personal attacks, please Pmantle. doctariAFC **


----------



## PMantle

bear13148 said:


> I would like to get behind you people on some of your points but when I keep reading these childish posts which all pretty much say the same thing, that is if you agree with me you're alright, if you don't you have no clue what the hell your talking about, I just can't bring myself to do it. Try putting a concerted effort into making crossbows legal in your areas instead of just whining on Archerytalk about all the people that disagree with you and maybe you would find people a little bit more understanding.


:RockOn:


----------



## Jim C

PMantle said:


> You can make it about you and me all you want. It doesn't advance your infantile position.



I think you are confused-we are discussing your claim that allowing centerfire rifles in a mzl season is akin to allowing Xbows in compound season

that is an infantile argument because no ONE DENIES that centerfire rifles have

1) far faster rates of fire -even single shot versions than MZL

2) longer range-a good shot can hit a deer at 600M with a 308-having been a close personal friend to a (sadly deceased) NMLRA/NRA blackpowder champion I know such a shot with a MZL would be a miracle

3) ease of use in inclement weather-centerfire cartridges are waterproof

Now can you prove-using statistics or your extensive experience as both a compound and crossbow archer-that overall a crossbow hunter has demonstratable cumulative advantages that makes his bow superior as a hunting tool over compounds?


----------



## Marvin

progers said:


> Marvin, let me bring something else to your attention. Now, I'm still rusty with all these acronyms so, I will try to get this right. Some of this is just speculation but, strong speculation none the less.
> 
> Ok, Pope and Young formed the NABC. The NABC has burned the bridge with ATA because ATA supports crossbows along with all other archers. The BSBA, here in LA is associated with the NABC. Now, down at Ft. Polk in Leesville, at the 3D range, the BSBA jsut made a point to get the ASA sanctioned there and NOT the ATA. Why? Because the ASA is an organization that doesn't support crossbows, to my knowledge and they have alot to do with 3D shoots. Hmmm, we're talking about a 3D course at Ft. Polk. Something smells fishy. Anyway, that is all cool now because the AFC jsut got sanctioned at Ft. Polk and now crossbow 3D shootes can shoot along with the compound 3D shooters. Something tells me they won't be happy with that.
> 
> Also, I joined the BSBA forum undercover and asked them if I could come shoot 3D targets with me. Guess how that went over? I got banned!
> 
> Marvin, this goes much futher than hunting whitetails during archery season. That is where my concern comes in. As I have stated, I can understand completely why they want to fight crossbows in archery season, to a certain point. But, they don't stop there.
> 
> Most of my comments go towards the BSBA of LA, I will admit that as I do not know much about other states.
> 
> 
> Can someone explain more about the ASA so I may understand better of what is really going on?



the ASA is a shooting organization like the IBO. I can understand your concerns but what have they been telling you about why they don't want the crossbow? when you say , they don't stop there...what do you mean? i amnto a huge fan of the ATA. they are a manufacturers organization and (it appears) have no loyalties to anyone but to those that pay their dues.


----------



## Marvin

Jim C said:


> Lets take a poll concerning education
> 
> I maintain that a centerfire rifle has several advantages over muzzle loaders (other than perhaps the fact you can buy a MZL through the mail) and NO Disadvantages in terms of performance
> 
> you claim otherwise
> 
> who do you think is going to be judged unlearned?
> 
> can you prove that a crossbow has the same cumulative obvious advantages over compounds-Oh wait, you haven't hunted with both bows as I have


i have shot both...but you knew that already....i say your wrong ...when do you wanna start the poll?


----------



## twogun

bear13148 said:


> How is it that the only people saying P&Y has lost their respect and is no longer a "good" organization are the pro crossbow people? It sounds to me that anyone who disagrees with your way of thinking is now evil and not to be respected, but if they were to change their stance on the use of crossbows you would jump right back on the the P&Y bandwagon. I would like to get behind you people on some of your points but when I keep reading these childish posts which all pretty much say the same thing, that is if you agree with me you're alright, if you don't you have no clue what the hell your talking about, I just can't bring myself to do it. Try putting a concerted effort into making crossbows legal in your areas instead of just whining on Archerytalk about all the people that disagree with you and maybe you would find people a little bit more understanding.



I have no problem with a private organization establishing any standards they wish for membership or trophy recognition. If you like the organization, then play by their rules. If you don't, well don't.

P&Y can do whatever they want untill they start to attack my freedoms as a hunter. Crossbows have been legal for me to use from my first days of bow hunting. I have enjoyed hunting with one off and on for almost 20 years. P&Y actively works to take that away from me. For me, it makes little difference what other wonderful things an organization is into if they are trying to take away my chosen form of hunting. 

There are some animal rights groups that work very hard and probobly accomplish many nice things for the betterment of animals in general, but that doesn't get them off the hook when it comes to them attacking my hunting. So, I don't much care what else P&Y does. I have absolutely no use for them. They are attacking me.


----------



## Marvin

Jim C said:


> You are the joke marvin-your cheap shot about my wife's former shop (posted by some guy no one ever remembers being there) shows what sort of person you are. You are the one who is bitter because your self hatred about your own archery skills or standing as an "archer" (LOL) is what fuels you misery and loathing about xbow archery hunters


 why would you remeber that guy Jim? if I walked into your store and you didn't know what a right helical fletch is I wouldn't come back either....I just go to gander mountain. For the record...I let that one slide until you asked for it..


----------



## progers

Marvin said:


> the ASA is a shooting organization like the IBO. I can understand your concerns but what have they been telling you about why they don't want the crossbow? when you say , they don't stop there...what do you mean? i amnto a huge fan of the ATA. they are a manufacturers organization and (it appears) have no loyalties to anyone but to those that pay their dues.


I think that twogun answered part of it.

Let me pull up a statement from the BSBA from this very debate and you can anylize it for us:


http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=274604
POST #7



Pistol Young said:


> My name is Pistol Young.
> I'm the Youth Director for the Bayou State Bowhunters Association. The BSBA's stance on this issue is that it is already legal to hunt with a crossbow in this state if you're over 60 and if your diabled or handicapped. We stand behind the current standards for using this weapon. We are against it being used by all hunters and also during the rifle, primitive and or archery seasons.
> 
> 
> Following are a few of my personal opinions as to why the crossbow should not be allowed by the general public during any deer season.
> 
> = The crossbow, as with the draw loc allows the arrow to be stored in a ready position at all times. Unlike an arrow having to be drawn ( compound or taditional )
> = I don't think by allowing the legalization of this weapon will generate any significant monies to the wildlife and fisheries dept.
> = I think that the archery shops will see a decline in sales / service after the initial sale due to someone sticking with the crossbow setup they originally buy. I hope that the archery shops will foresee this issue.
> = There is plenty of adequate equipment in the archery industry to outfit any person whether they are strong or weak, young or old, male or female.
> 
> 
> Like I stated earlier the BSBA is definetly against the legalization of the crossbow in any form of use other than what is in place as of now.
> If any other Bowhunters are interested in helping the Bayou State Bowhunters fight this issue as we basically do each year. Feel free to contact myself and I'll steer you in the right direction.
> __________________
> Bayou State Bowhunters Youth Director



http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=274604
POST #23



Kenny Borel said:


> Sure looks like more Louisiana bowhunters are against it than for it, HUH. I'll not debate here. I'll fight it where it counts- in the Legislature. Both the BSBA and the Louisiana Wildlife Federation are against crossbow use for the general public. As stated earlier, in La. one CAN use a crossbow IF they are LEGITIMATELY handicapped or are over 65 yrs old. We have NO problem with that and intend to keep it that way. This is my one and only reply to this thread.
> P.S. Look at the post counts as you are reading this!!!!
> __________________
> >>>>---Kenny Borel---->
> Bowhunting Director
> Bayou State Bowhunters Assn.
> www.bayoustatebowhunters.org
> 
> Blue's Archery/Mathews Co-op shooter
> Copper John shooting staff
> Tru-ball shooting staff
> BCY Bowstrings shooting staff



Now, my beef lies with the BSBA of LA. (Bayou State Bowhunters Association)


What is it you comprehend when you read the statement of their "stance"??

Please reply.....

Thanks,
~P~


----------



## progers

As this is the ONLY "bowhunters association" that I have spoken directly to, I should not let there statements reflect towards other "bowhunters association" and I apologize for doing so.


And even as I have debated with PMantle and he is going to join the BSBA, he openly admits that he does not stand behind them 100%.


----------



## cynic

PMantle said:


> All true, but there is not currently a different season for those in this State. If someone wants to push for a self bow season, more power to them. There are differences in some weapons that have different seasons. There are virtually no differences between other weapons that have difference seasons. It's a big "so what". If you are going to argue that they are no different, then the reasons for other seasons fall too.


And all this comes from someone that claims to have knowledge of archery. He doesn't even know what bow he shoots..His claim a '1998 Mathews MQ1 60% letoff'...The first year of the MQ1 was in 98 and was offered only in 65%. Late 98 came the new model year available in 65 and 80% letoff. I am sure that there will be a claim of typo error. While not being knowledgable in the tournament circles. I do know my hunting bows. This is the one post that has made me realize "The bigger, better attitude" "I don't shoot a high letoff" this is a ploy to make yourself feel that you are a traditional archer and better than those of us that want to shoot high letoff compounds and crossbows. I don't have the desire to feel better than anyone else.


----------



## progers

progers said:


> I think that twogun answered part of it.
> 
> Let me pull up a statement from the BSBA from this very debate and you can anylize it for us:
> 
> 
> http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=274604
> POST #7
> 
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=274604
> POST #23
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Now, my beef lies with the BSBA of LA. (Bayou State Bowhunters Association)
> 
> 
> What is it you comprehend when you read the statement of their "stance"??
> 
> Please reply.....
> 
> Thanks,
> ~P~






I ask that all take a moment and evaluate what we are dealing with here in LA please as this effects the whole state of LA. I know these debate help other states but, right now, my main concern is with Louisiana. 

I know in my heart that not all bowhunters agree with the BSBA's stance. At least, I pray to GOD they don't.

Is it just me or what????


----------



## PMantle

cynic said:


> And all this comes from someone that claims to have knowledge of archery. He doesn't even know what bow he shoots..His claim a '1998 Mathews MQ1 60% letoff'...The first year of the MQ1 was in 98 and was offered only in 65%. Late 98 came the new model year available in 65 and 80% letoff. I am sure that there will be a claim of typo error. While not being knowledgable in the tournament circles. I do know my hunting bows. This is the one post that has made me realize "The bigger, better attitude" "I don't shoot a high letoff" this is a ploy to make yourself feel that you are a traditional archer and better than those of us that want to shoot high letoff compounds and crossbows. I don't have the desire to feel better than anyone else.


 Check again. It wasn't me. I've never owned nor have I even shot an MQ1. Engelsmung is a hunter. he doesn't get nearly as excited over the technical aspects of equipment as I do or others here. I don't see that as being relevant in the discusion-just more personal attacks like that lame question of yours about ethics. 

If you want to talk let-off, I'll play. I shot the 65% optional max cam on my Ultramax for years. When it was time to buy a new bow last year, I bought the higher let off. I like the new bow better, but I have no idea if it is the let off or just the design of the bow overall. Make whatever judgment you want on that.


----------



## Jim C

Marvin said:


> why would you remeber that guy Jim? if I walked into your store and you didn't know what a right helical fletch is I wouldn't come back either....I just go to gander mountain. For the record...I let that one slide until you asked for it..



I have fletched over 5000 arrows Marvin-I certainly know what a RH helical is-we used both Arizona and Bitz fletchers. None of the three people at the shop remember this "otto" and btw what was your purpose of posting a cheap shot about my wife's shop on a thread about crossbows Marvin


----------



## Jim C

Marvin said:


> i have shot both...but you knew that already....i say your wrong ...when do you wanna start the poll?



are you saying that centerfire rifles have no advantages over MZL's or are you saying that overall a xbow has advantages over compounds so as to make them more efficient hunting tools

I have no idea if you have shot both-all I have is the claim of a guy who hides behind a false profile

there are dozens on this board who have personally witnessed me shoot recurve, crossbow and compounds marvin


----------



## progers

PMantle said:


> Check again. It wasn't me. I've never owned nor have I even shot an MQ1. Engelsmung is a hunter. he doesn't get nearly as excited over the technical aspects of equipment as I do or others here. I don't see that as being relevant in the discusion-just more personal attacks like that lame question of yours about ethics.
> 
> If you want to talk let-off, I'll play. I shot the 65% optional max cam on my Ultramax for years. When it was time to buy a new bow last year, I bought the higher let off. I like the new bow better, but I have no idea if it is the let off or just the design of the bow overall. Make whatever judgment you want on that.




Since PMantle has me on "ignore" would someone else please quote me one the BSBA statements and ask PMantle if he supports the BSBA 100%.


----------



## cynic

PMantle said:


> Check again. It wasn't me. I've never owned nor have I even shot an MQ1. Engelsmung is a hunter. he doesn't get nearly as excited over the technical aspects of equipment as I do or others here. I don't see that as being relevant in the discusion-just more personal attacks like that lame question of yours about ethics.
> 
> If you want to talk let-off, I'll play. I shot the 65% optional max cam on my Ultramax for years. When it was time to buy a new bow last year, I bought the higher let off. I like the new bow better, but I have no idea if it is the let off or just the design of the bow overall. Make whatever judgment you want on that.


I stand corrected it was your partner Engelsmung. I apologize for the post.


----------



## PMantle

cynic said:


> I stand corrected it was your partner Engelsmung. I apologize for the post.


Thanks for that, but he's not my partner.


----------



## Free Range

Lets see Jim, ML and center fire and the practical differences between the two as it relates to hunting. In the USA most deer are shot at under 100 yards and 99.99% shot at under 200 yards. So center fire scoped can shoot 200 yrds with ease, ML scoped can shoot 200 yards with ease, center fire is completely suitable to shoot with in the rain, modern ML is completely suitable to shoot with in the rain. Most center fire rifles hold more then one cartridge ML only one at a time, well the center fire wins there. What else is there knock down power more then adequate in both. Most ML seasons are before the center fire season, the ML wins here. So please point to how different they are please educate this poor boy about how different they are so I can see the light.


----------



## progers

Free Range said:


> Lets see Jim, ML and center fire and the practical differences between the two as it relates to hunting. In the USA most deer are shot at under 100 yards and 99.99% shot at under 200 yards. So center fire scoped can shoot 200 yrds with ease, ML scoped can shoot 200 yards with ease, center fire is completely suitable to shoot with in the rain, modern ML is completely suitable to shoot with in the rain. Most center fire rifles hold more then one cartridge ML only one at a time, well the center fire wins there. What else is there knock down power more then adequate in both. Most ML seasons are before the center fire season, the ML wins here. So please point to how different they are please educate this poor boy about how different they are so I can see the light.



I'm sorry. How does this pertain to crossbows?????


Free Range, do you agree with the statement I posted about the "stance" of the BSBA? Do you agree with their "stance" stating that crossbows should not be allowed in any season, including firearm and MZL? Their stance is NO WAY, NO HOW for anybody other than handicapped and seniors ONLY in deer season.

Is this sutable to you? Should the hunters of LA jsut except this or should we keep fighting this?


----------



## progers

doctariAFC said:


> Ok. Since this pertains to legislation, we are starting a new thread for the service of Louisiana Sportsmen, and other hunters who would desire to hunt in Louisiana. I will make clear the rules of this debate right now. Anyone found in violation of these rules shall be cut off, with an EOP action taken against them. We are interested only in facts. Therefore, follow these easy to understand rules, and all will be well:
> 
> *1 - ALL arguments presented must be based in FACT, not soley opinion.
> 
> Facts are statistcs gathered from LFWD, USF&W and legitimate hunter surveys. Saying "My Club asked our members" kind of thing doesn't wash as a Primary Fact. You may use something of this nature to bolster your facts, but this in and of itself is NOT a fact.
> Facts are also defined as information from other State DNRs and USF&W State specific reports which may present similar information applicable to LA. For instance, using Georgia's collected data to reinforce crossbows, or Ohio's declining hunter population to state against crossbow.
> Facts are NOT personal experience, conjecture on the dedication of a specific group of hunters, etc.
> 2 - We will tolerate absolutely NO NAME CALLING. We run the legislative section with more CLASS and civility than the US Congress. We are all sportsmen and your behavior REFLECTS UPON YOU. If you behave poorly, you cast a bad light on your position. We will have no name calling and emotional rants for or against crossbows. This includes hunters too lazy, slobs, etc., for wanting to use a crossbow. This also includes calling folks bigots and practicing apartheid in response to the anti-crossbow statements.
> 
> 3 - NO one will challenge the moderator. I am interested in education, and education of hunters on the larger issues. Challenge the moderator, and get summarily booted from the Legislation Section. I would sincerely hope that Hunting Rights and Legislation is a very important arena for ALL hunters, therefore, I would certainly believe all of you will do what it takes (follow the rules) to continue to remain informed and help protect our rights and heritage from the true enemies, the ARAs and Enviro wackos that continue to assault our rights. I run a pretty fair debate, but if you disintegrate into low-life, classless drivel, you will be gone.
> 
> 4 - If anyone has any questions, or requests some FACTS (reports from USF&W) or an understanding of the data, please ask, I am here to help get folks educated.*
> If we are all clear on the rules, then let us begin with a debate on the FACTS. Check your emotions at the door.




Can we PLEASE get back on the topic of *CROSSBOWS* and the Legalization of them in LOUISIANA?????


----------



## Marvin

Jim C said:


> I have fletched over 5000 arrows Marvin-I certainly know what a RH helical is-we used both Arizona and Bitz fletchers. None of the three people at the shop remember this "otto" and btw what was your purpose of posting a cheap shot about my wife's shop on a thread about crossbows Marvin


:clap2: :humble: :chortle:


----------



## Free Range

I know it doesn’t have anything to do with the x-bow, in this context but in the bigger picture it does, why don’t you ask Jim the same thing. 

And as for the BSBA’s stance on x-bows, I would have to talk to them to fully understand their stance. But so you don’t accuse me of ducking the question, I don’t see why a person couldn’t hunt with one for small game, on the ground. I believe there would be a safety issue to shooting them into trees or in the air. This is about archery season, to me, as far as I know there is no separate small game season for bows and guns, so if we can share the woods with gun hunters chasing small game then I see no reason why you couldn’t be allowed to shoot your x-bow at Bugs. But and here is the big but, the x-bow faction has stated they will not stop until there is a x-bow in every garage ) Just like the gun grabbers that want to take small bites until there are no guns. If I had any faith that the small game season or the rifle deer season was the only season they would be allowed in I wouldn’t hesitate backing you. And I have a feeling this is the reason for the BSBA’s stance about no way no how.


----------



## Free Range

I’m with you Progers, just the facts Mrs. But could we clear up something, and I’m sure it has been addressed but is now lost in the shuffle, what are we looking for, what theory or hypothesis are we trying to prove or disprove with these facts? Are we trying to prove the deer herd will suffer, that the public hunting grounds will become over crowded, that the x-bow will bring in new hunters, that the x-bow will save hunting, just what is it we are trying to prove?


----------



## PMantle

Free Range said:


> If I had any faith that the small game season or the rifle deer season was the only season they would be allowed in I wouldn’t hesitate backing you. And I have a feeling this is the reason for the BSBA’s stance about no way no how.


Same for me.


----------



## Marvin

Free Range said:


> I’m with you Progers, just the facts Mrs. But could we clear up something, and I’m sure it has been addressed but is now lost in the shuffle, what are we looking for, what theory or hypothesis are we trying to prove or disprove with these facts? Are we trying to prove the deer herd will suffer, that the public hunting grounds will become over crowded, that the x-bow will bring in new hunters, that the x-bow will save hunting, just what is it we are trying to prove?


 freerange, what i have seen and this is about all I can find is the financial end of things. The problem that appears to me on the surface with La is that they have the Lifetime licencse and not a deer tag system. Not sure much revenue will be generated if this is not changed. If the tags are like 10 bucks a piece that would certainly help and is a bargain in todays deer tag market. but that will also piss a lot of people off and they will hunt less or buy less tags. It's an entitlement thing. if they could nip the leasing thing in teh bud that would help distribute more hunters and give more opportunity for people to have a quality spot and more people would be able to join and not get discouraged.


----------



## twogun

Free Range said:


> Lets see Jim, ML and center fire and the practical differences between the two as it relates to hunting. In the USA most deer are shot at under 100 yards and 99.99% shot at under 200 yards. So center fire scoped can shoot 200 yrds with ease, ML scoped can shoot 200 yards with ease, center fire is completely suitable to shoot with in the rain, modern ML is completely suitable to shoot with in the rain. Most center fire rifles hold more then one cartridge ML only one at a time, well the center fire wins there. What else is there knock down power more then adequate in both. Most ML seasons are before the center fire season, the ML wins here. So please point to how different they are please educate this poor boy about how different they are so I can see the light.



Here's a good read.



> The point is, however, to emphatically state that those uniformed folks who smugly spew that "hunting with a modern inline" is somehow just like "hunting with a centerfire" are clearly, unequivocally, completely, and obviously out of their cotton-picking minds. At least as far as I am concerned.


http://www.chuckhawks.com/effective_muzzleloader_range.htm


Here is another:



> The most obvious and unique feature of the muzzle-loader is its ability to fire only one shot. If another shot is urgently required, a lengthy process is required to reload the firearm, compared to the quick action of a cenerfire rifle. Perhaps it's this challenge that endears it to many hunters, as well as the awful ballistics (compared to a centerfire rifle) that require the shooter to get close to the target.


http://http://www.hunting101.com/biggame/northamerica/Elk/the%20complete%20hunter%20elk004.htm


----------



## PMantle

Marvin said:


> freerange, what i have seen and this is about all I can find is the financial end of things. The problem that appears to me on the surface with La is that they have the Lifetime licencse and not a deer tag system. Not sure much revenue will be generated if this is not changed.


Bowhunting is $10.50. If a hunter already participated in archery, no gain. To be a generator of revenue, the buyers would have to come from the ranks of people who are not already participating in archery season, AND who are not lifetime license holders.


----------



## Marvin

PMantle said:


> Bowhunting is $10.50. If a hunter already participated in archery, no gain. To be a generator of revenue, the buyers would have to come from the ranks of people who are not already participating in archery season, AND who are not lifetime license holders.


man thats a bargain. So the 10.50 get syou 6 "tags" Is there a gun tag?


----------



## doctariAFC

PMantle said:


> Bowhunting is $10.50. If a hunter already participated in archery, no gain. To be a generator of revenue, the buyers would have to come from the ranks of people who are not already participating in archery season, AND who are not lifetime license holders.


Or they return to the sport the once participated in, but are not old enough to get an exception permit to use crossbow, or they are not handicapped enough to get the same.

The information that has been posted here, regarding participation figures in states that recently legalized crossbows is the gauge to use and apply to estimate LA's potential success and benefits. License sales are part of it, increased equipment sales is another part of it. You also have hunters who are kind of like me, someone who uses just about every legal implement, and hunts in every different season, for the challenge and reward of hunting using different implements. I hunt with a compound (Oneida Aeroforce X-80), and old bear recurve (50lb draw), a 12 ga Ithaca M37 pump shotgun - 2 3/4 inch, rifled slugs - flat barrel, a CVA 54-cal percussion Hawken - hand-measured 125 gr charge, patch and roundball, a 30-30 Win Lever action Marlin, and next year I am adding a Browning 1886 replica 45-70 single-shot, lever action breech loader, with centerfire black powder cartridge. Don't know which projectile I will go with. Probably a 405 gr, but I may step up as high as the 532, depends on how I shoot with the thing. If crossbows were permitted in NYS, I would consider giving one of these a shot, no pun intended.

That's the entire beauty of providing choices to hunters. The debate really boils down to allowing this option for hunters and what reasons exist to not allow this choice - if these reasons clearly support real damages and dangers if this implement is legalized. Thus far, with as many posts on this thread as we have received, couple with the volume of posts we received in Louisiana and the crossbow, Part I, which is locked, absolutely NO REASONS have been presented that should not permit the crossbow's use to all in Louisiana. 

This issue has been dodged by the anti-crossbow side, with reasons ranging from "there are no facts" to "the facts don't matter." Forgive me for insulting anyone, but those statements sound like something spewed forth from the barking moonbat minions. Then, facts are presented, and these facts are coming from State AND Federal studies, and then these facts are attacked, despite major and very successful retailers and Outdoors Foundations being dependent upon these reports to help them make business-critical plans, direction and strategies.

I have left the thread open, in fairness to the anti-crossbow side to come up with at least ONE fact to support any ONE of the claims made against the crossbow. To date, not a single FACT has been entered into the debate in support of any anti-opinion/ statement made.

So, let me remind everyone that this thread pertains to Crossbow Legalization in LA, has nothing to do with firearms, be it centerfire or ML or shotgun shells. This is about crossbow legislation.

Now, :focus:


Thanks


----------



## Engelsmung

*you're breaking my heart*



PMantle said:


> Thanks for that, but he's not my partner.


How 'bout "Podnuh"? Next time, you buy the gut buster dinner before the hunt.:wink: 

Dat was me with the 1998 MQ1, and I really DK the poundage or let-off, but I think the bowshop owner set it around 60-64#. I'm no techno guru. I just shoot it. Please accept my apologies for the error.


----------



## Engelsmung

*no tags yet*



Marvin said:


> man thats a bargain. So the 10.50 get syou 6 "tags" Is there a gun tag?


you're allowed 6 deer, but no way to know if you limit yourself to that. They are discussing implementing a tagging system, but folks are already grousing about it. Actually, you need a $10.00 hunting(small game) license, then a $10.50 big game license(to gun hunt deer or turkey), then a $10.50 archery license if you bowhunt(and/or $10.50 muzz if you want). Or, you can buy a $300 lifetime hunting, or $500 lifetime hunting and fishing license, and only buy a duck stamp for the rest of your life to hunt here, even if you move away.


----------



## PMantle

doctariAFC said:


> Or they return to the sport the once participated in, but are not old enough to get an exception permit to use crossbow, or they are not handicapped enough to get the same.


Those people are covered by my description. Your Jim C.-type argument for crossbows is very tiring. There have been plenty of solid reasons NOT to add crossbows to archery season. That you don't accept them is not anyone's problem but you. 


Now, give us some facts, and at least some glimpse as to a sound hypothesis for how adding crossbows to La. archery season will be a net gain.


----------



## PMantle

Marvin said:


> man thats a bargain. So the 10.50 get syou 6 "tags" Is there a gun tag?


As Mung said, there are no tags. The 6 deer are on what could be called an honor system. It sucks to put it mildly. Absolutely no way to count harvest other than on WMA's and NWR's, and I am not even sure that all WMA's even have a counting procedure.


----------



## Jim C

PMantle said:


> Those people are covered by my description. Your Jim C.-type argument for crossbows is very tiring. There have been plenty of solid reasons NOT to add crossbows to archery season. That you don't accept them is not anyone's problem but you.
> 
> 
> Now, give us some facts, and at least some glimpse as to a sound hypothesis for how adding crossbows to La. archery season will be a net gain.



those being summed up in one line

You don't want more people hunting during archery season-that is the only reason you all have


----------



## Marvin

Jim C said:


> those being summed up in one line
> 
> You don't want more people hunting during archery season-that is the only reason you all have


 WOW look at all those "FACTS":tongue: :lie:


----------



## PMantle

Jim C said:


> those being summed up in one line
> 
> You don't want more people hunting during archery season-that is the only reason you all have


You forgot to add lazy in there. :wink:


----------



## Marvin

PMantle said:


> As Mung said, there are no tags. The 6 deer are on what could be called an honor system. It sucks to put it mildly. Absolutely no way to count harvest other than on WMA's and NWR's, and I am not even sure that all WMA's even have a counting procedure.


 Sounds like you have a real pickle on your hands. It would be my recomendation to get those issues fixed first to evaluate where the state of LA is actually at and them try to make the determination as to if the crossbow is needed. So how do they estimate how many hunters are actually utilizing the system? I hope none of you are going to blame this on Bush either....( just kidding) The USFW reports show a similiar decline in hunter numbers( to ohio) but how are they actually counting them? has anyone asked them? Seems loosy goosey down there.


----------



## Marvin

PMantle said:


> You forgot to add lazy in there. :wink:


 what about bigot?..i am sure we can find a way to get that in there


----------



## Free Range

> NO REASONS have been presented that should not permit the crossbow's use to all in Louisiana.


Doc, come on please re-word this, there has been reasons, just not ones you consider valid.



> Then, facts are presented, and these facts are coming from State AND Federal studies, and then these facts are attacked, despite major and very successful retailers and Outdoors Foundations being dependent upon these reports to help them make business-critical plans, direction and strategies.


I admit I haven’t read every post but I have most, please point me to the page these facts are on I will go back and read them. Also please tell me what facts you are looking for from us, facts to support that the x-bow will take over the archery season, (Ohio over 50% hunt with the x-bow, fact) that the x-bow is more effective then the vertical bow, TN 15% of the “bow” hunters used the x-bow and killed 20% of the deer killed with a arrow, ( I didn’t go back and look this up, going by memory, the % might be off a bit) What else do you want, the continue rise of deer killed during archery season, fact, opinion is someday it could lead to shortening of archery deer season, what else, fact there is no known increase in funds to the state, (maybe I should say known significant increase) Fact, no one knows if there is a significant increase or retention of hunters due to the x-bow.


----------



## PMantle

Marvin said:


> Sounds like you have a real pickle on your hands. It would be my recomendation to get those issues fixed first to evaluate where the state of LA is actually at and them try to make the determination as to if the crossbow is needed. So how do they estimate how many hunters are actually utilizing the system? I hope none of you are going to blame this on Bush either....( just kidding) The USFW reports show a similiar decline in hunter numbers( to ohio) but how are they actually counting them? has anyone asked them? Seems loosy goosey down there.


Handing out actual tags and some effort in enforcing the system i.e. fines for deer found not properly tagged, would be a great start in getting real numbers. Heck, I doubt it would be very difficult to keep records on how the tags were handed out so that at least some information could be obtained on how the deer was harvested. I've never hunted in a State with a good system, so maybe there are better ways in other parts i am not familiar with.


----------



## Engelsmung

*And you wonder why we questions the "facts/statistics"?*



Marvin said:


> Sounds like you have a real pickle on your hands. So how do they estimate how many hunters are actually utilizing the system? The USFW reports show a similiar decline in hunter numbers( to ohio) but how are they actually counting them? has anyone asked them? Seems loosy goosey down there.


The only deer that get counted down here are the one killed on WMAs/NWRs and reported in the self check system, and the DMAP deer. Other numbers are based on what, I don't know. Surveys? Even the HIP certification is a wild guestimate, asking me in 2006 to remember how many ducks/doves/woodcock I killed in 2005. I have no clue how they figure out the deer harvest. But they'll send out those stats.

As to hunter numbers, just count licenses issued, and guesstimate those under 16, lifetime license holders, milatary/law enforcement, and hunters over 60(they now have $5 codger license, buy one get all).


----------



## Marvin

PMantle said:


> Handing out actual tags and some effort in enforcing the system i.e. fines for deer found not properly tagged, would be a great start in getting real numbers. Heck, I doubt it would be very difficult to keep records on how the tags were handed out so that at least some information could be obtained on how the deer was harvested. I've never hunted in a State with a good system, so maybe there are better ways in other parts i am not familiar with.


Ohioians have to go and buy a tag and we even have to go check our deer in at a check station. Pain but a necessary evil with all the horn porn we have in this state sometimes. During our gun season, there is sometimes a wildlife biologist there to who will take samples of the meat to test it for disease. pretty cool. Ohio unfortunately have a some wierd rules. it would be nice if we could just mail our tag in filled out with the info especially for the antlerless tags. antlers I can understand checking them in. Ohio has the data, they just refuse to use it to its ability. We just waste money on surveys.


----------



## Marvin

Engelsmung said:


> The only deer that get counted down here are the one killed on WMAs/NWRs and reported in the self check system, and the DMAP deer. Other numbers are based on what, I don't know. Surveys? Even the HIP certification is a wild guestimate, asking me in 2006 to remember how many ducks/doves/woodcock I killed in 2005. I have no clue how they figure out the deer harvest. But they'll send out those stats.
> 
> As to hunter numbers, just count licenses issued, and guesstimate those under 16, lifetime license holders, milatary/law enforcement, and hunters over 60(they now have $5 codger license, buy one get all).


 never understood the HIP myself. especially in a state like LA. you probably kill more ducks than we wee all season in the migration. Has anyone addressed the state to change the system? Could be a great undertaking for the BSBA. I would not think it would take that much to accomplish either. We only have one law officer per county ( or parish to you rebels). We use a drivers Lisence system to buy tags also. I don't mind it but I really enjoyed getting the old paper tags that hung on your back. makes for a great collectors item


----------



## cynic

Why not charge the xbow hunter 25.00 in addition to his regular licenses including archery. Have a hunter xbow safety course that also is paid by the xbow user. Give them the week before Archery opens and the last week any season allowing firearms and the late season. Or fri sat sun mon the week before archery to give the woods time to settle back down. Guys we have faught way to much. Wouldn't it be better to come up with alternatives? It will become more and more obvious that the xbow is coming. It would be better for both side to present a plan to the commission than to have one forced on you. The archers will become saints in there mind for allowing xbows, the xbowers will be happy just to have a season to use there weapon. Everybodies happy and we can play nice together


----------



## PMantle

Marvin said:


> Has anyone addressed the state to change the system? Could be a great undertaking for the BSBA. I would not think it would take that much to accomplish either.


Taken from a La. board:


I proposed this tagging scenario 2 years ago in Alex. and basically got looked upon as if I was stupid. 

2buck - 4 doe tags. 

Deer to be checked in with tags at a license retailer / check station as in other states. 

Increase License sale fees to vendors at a small amount to compensate for what is now asked of them. 

High penalties for non-tagging of transported animals. 

Increase in sales fees could be offset with stiffer penalties for non tagging or reporting. 

The harvest info could be automatically entered into the computer system that is already in place. 

At the end of the season. Unused tags to be checked in at license retailer for tracking. 

Next hunting season when you went to get your tags. Any tags that were not checked in whether with a kill or unused. Would be deducted from that years 2/4. You could pay a small penalty if you wanted to get your full 2/4 for the current year. 

Most of the electronic needed revisions would be easily changed since we are already under a computer purchase system. 

At any point in the year harvest results by sex, location, weight, age or whatever could be available to the needed people.


----------



## PMantle

cynic said:


> Why not charge the xbow hunter 25.00 in addition to his regular licenses including archery. Have a hunter xbow safety course that also is paid by the xbow user. Give them the week before Archery opens and the last week any season allowing firearms and the late season. Or fri sat sun mon the week before archery to give the woods time to settle back down.


As much as I oppose adding crossbows, I do not think it would be fair to those guys for them to be treated so differently if there was a season. Also, starting earlier would put them into September. I doubt that would be doing them any favors. heck, I don't even want to hunt then, as it is still high 80's to mid 90's and mosquitoes are really bad. As I've stated before, I am not opposed to crossbows for deer in any gun season.


----------



## Marvin

PMantle said:


> Taken from a La. board:
> 
> 
> I proposed this tagging scenario 2 years ago in Alex. and basically got looked upon as if I was stupid.
> 
> 2buck - 4 doe tags.
> 
> Deer to be checked in with tags at a license retailer / check station as in other states.
> 
> Increase License sale fees to vendors at a small amount to compensate for what is now asked of them.
> 
> High penalties for non-tagging of transported animals.
> 
> Increase in sales fees could be offset with stiffer penalties for non tagging or reporting.
> 
> The harvest info could be automatically entered into the computer system that is already in place.
> 
> At the end of the season. Unused tags to be checked in at license retailer for tracking.
> 
> Next hunting season when you went to get your tags. Any tags that were not checked in whether with a kill or unused. Would be deducted from that years 2/4. You could pay a small penalty if you wanted to get your full 2/4 for the current year.
> 
> Most of the electronic needed revisions would be easily changed since we are already under a computer purchase system.
> 
> At any point in the year harvest results by sex, location, weight, age or whatever could be available to the needed people.



man thats sad but I think it NEEDS to happen. Your only hurting yourselves if you don't. Your a good man for bringing that up. maybe you can push for it again and get some more backing.


----------



## Marvin

cynic said:


> Why not charge the xbow hunter 25.00 in addition to his regular licenses including archery. Have a hunter xbow safety course that also is paid by the xbow user. Give them the week before Archery opens and the last week any season allowing firearms and the late season. Or fri sat sun mon the week before archery to give the woods time to settle back down. Guys we have faught way to much. Wouldn't it be better to come up with alternatives? It will become more and more obvious that the xbow is coming. It would be better for both side to present a plan to the commission than to have one forced on you. The archers will become saints in there mind for allowing xbows, the xbowers will be happy just to have a season to use there weapon. Everybodies happy and we can play nice together


yeah thats not right to charge them more. there is ample opportunity to join in bow season if they want for able bodied people. if they did allow the option you proposed...they would squeal foul anyway and just want more and better times. i guess there are times i see why the BSBA wants to shut the door completely.


----------



## cynic

PMantle said:


> As much as I oppose adding crossbows, I do not think it would be fair to those guys for them to be treated so differently if there was a season. Also, starting earlier would put them into September. I doubt that would be doing them any favors. heck, I don't even want to hunt then, as it is still high 80's to mid 90's and mosquitoes are really bad. As I've stated before, I am not opposed to crossbows for deer in any gun season.


That's a start. Since the archery season is so long is there any leway for any days towards the end? What about the late season? This get past the bashing and work on something for everyone..


----------



## cynic

Marvin said:


> yeah thats not right to charge them more. there is ample opportunity to join in bow season if they want for able bodied people. if they did allow the option you proposed...they would squeal foul anyway and just want more and better times. i guess there are times i see why the BSBA wants to shut the door completely.


You say it's not right to charge them more but its okay to just say no. The irony.


----------



## doctariAFC

cynic said:


> Why not charge the xbow hunter 25.00 in addition to his regular licenses including archery. Have a hunter xbow safety course that also is paid by the xbow user. Give them the week before Archery opens and the last week any season allowing firearms and the late season. Or fri sat sun mon the week before archery to give the woods time to settle back down. Guys we have faught way to much. Wouldn't it be better to come up with alternatives? It will become more and more obvious that the xbow is coming. It would be better for both side to present a plan to the commission than to have one forced on you. The archers will become saints in there mind for allowing xbows, the xbowers will be happy just to have a season to use there weapon. Everybodies happy and we can play nice together


BINGO!

This is something that I have mentioned on more than just a few occassions, the additional license for crossbow. In NY, we have the regular big game license, which covers only regular season hunting, and allows hunters to hunt the regular firearms season only. We have a bowhunting stamp to permit hunters to use a bow and participate in early archery and extended archery, plus allows the hunter to lawfully use a bow during regular season. Must have the bowhunter's safety course to hunt big game with a bow in NYS (you do not need this to hunt small game with a bow, however, as I understand the statutes). Then we have the black powder stamp, which allows the hunter to participate in the extended black powder season, which follows the regular season. A special note on this tag - no training is required to secure the ML stamp. You may also use a ML during regular season WITHOUT having a black powder stamp/ license.

My proposal to NYS for crossbow inclusion would include an additional license for crossbow, with the prerequisite of holding an archery license or proof of completion of the bowhunters safety course.

This added cost serves a few purposes. 1 - obviously a revenue generator in terms of another license. 2 - Provides for specific tracking of hunters choosing the crossbow for better anaylsis and performance of this choice. 3 - An added cost typically serves as a DETERRANT to the "lazy" hunter, or as I prefer to call them, the "cheap" hunter. 

Price of crossbow stamp should be on par with archery and ML stamps. Require Archery stamp for the purchase of crossbow stamp.


----------



## PMantle

cynic said:


> That's a start. Since the archery season is so long is there any leway for any days towards the end? What about the late season? This get past the bashing and work on something for everyone..


I agree the season is long, but gun season is long too. As it pertains to virtually all public land, archery season is short, IF one chooses to stay out of woods with gun hunters. yes, I realize that is a personal choice, but keep in mind we are a dog State, so gun season, in many areas can lead to wild things going on under your stand. 

So, that leaves archers who don't want to hunt during gun season to hunt on NRW's and WMA's. The gun days seem to grow on the refuges every year. As it is, I drive almost 2 hours one way to hunt where I do. Nothing I have said shortens the season-I realize that, but for many guys, the effect is a shorter season.


----------



## PMantle

doctariAFC said:


> BINGO!
> 
> This is something that I have mentioned on more than just a few occassions, the additional license for crossbow. In NY, we have the regular big game license, which covers only regular season hunting, and allows hunters to hunt the regular firearms season only. We have a bowhunting stamp to permit hunters to use a bow and participate in early archery and extended archery, plus allows the hunter to lawfully use a bow during regular season. Must have the bowhunter's safety course to hunt big game with a bow in NYS (you do not need this to hunt small game with a bow, however, as I understand the statutes). Then we have the black powder stamp, which allows the hunter to participate in the extended black powder season, which follows the regular season. A special note on this tag - no training is required to secure the ML stamp. You may also use a ML during regular season WITHOUT having a black powder stamp/ license.
> 
> My proposal to NYS for crossbow inclusion would include an additional license for crossbow, with the prerequisite of holding an archery license or proof of completion of the bowhunters safety course.
> 
> This added cost serves a few purposes. 1 - obviously a revenue generator in terms of another license. 2 - Provides for specific tracking of hunters choosing the crossbow for better anaylsis and performance of this choice. 3 - An added cost typically serves as a DETERRANT to the "lazy" hunter, or as I prefer to call them, the "cheap" hunter.
> 
> Price of crossbow stamp should be on par with archery and ML stamps. Require Archery stamp for the purchase of crossbow stamp.


But there's no difference between crossbows and vertical bows, so I can't see how that would be justified.


----------



## Marvin

cynic said:


> You say it's not right to charge them more but its okay to just say no. The irony.


sometimes it is unfortunately....stops the constant whining usually generated.


----------



## cynic

Marvin said:


> sometimes it is unfortunately....stops the constant whining usually generated.


I see that you play follow the leader well. Unfortunately I here more whining from you than anyone wanting to use a xbow. We have not whined about your choice to use the compound, but plenty of whining about what if's and the use of the xbow. The xbow will be coming it is a matter of time. Lets find a place to use them. A place that will benefit not only the hunter but also the commission and wildlife.


----------



## doctariAFC

Free Range said:


> Doc, come on please re-word this, there has been reasons, just not ones you consider valid.
> 
> 
> 
> I admit I haven’t read every post but I have most, please point me to the page these facts are on I will go back and read them. Also please tell me what facts you are looking for from us, facts to support that the x-bow will take over the archery season, (Ohio over 50% hunt with the x-bow, fact) that the x-bow is more effective then the vertical bow, TN 15% of the “bow” hunters used the x-bow and killed 20% of the deer killed with a arrow, ( I didn’t go back and look this up, going by memory, the % might be off a bit) What else do you want, the continue rise of deer killed during archery season, fact, opinion is someday it could lead to shortening of archery deer season, what else, fact there is no known increase in funds to the state, (maybe I should say known significant increase) Fact, no one knows if there is a significant increase or retention of hunters due to the x-bow.


Free Range. An opinion does not constitute a reason. An opinion based in fact does. I have yet to see one FACT presented by the anti-side, and, in all honesty, I am waiting for this. 

Ummmm...... Have you ever taken a look at deer population numbers? Growth trends over the past decade, past 50 years, past century? This "decimate the expanding deer herds" has been the trumpeted since states began opening more lands to hunting, began implementation of special implement seasons (this includes the original archery movement back in the 30's, 40's and 50's.), this includes the addition of "doe days", then party permits valid throughout the regular seasons, then the abolition of party permits (in NY) to give the doe tags to individuals, then the multiple doe tags given to individuals, etc. Despite deer in many, many areas of the country now at or beyond the nuisance level, hence the need for DMAP programs, you're still going to tell us all that a crossbow will decimate the deer herds? 

Ohio is one source for an established crossbow record. Arkansas is another. Search Progers threads in here. He has provided a wealth of information that completely and thoroughly debunks every argument/ opinion made thus far. PM him for specific information, I am sure he will provide this to you.


----------



## cynic

Marvin said:


> Doc in New York...what kinda price range are we talking about? I think the problem with LA is that they don't seemingly care about the whitetail
> as a revenue generator. Unlike where you and I are from, whitetails are not king. It may not have the same effect in La as it would in Ohio and New york. From what has beenposted here, they don't even seem concerned about the keeping track of the herd at all.


When you say that they don't care about the whitetail are you including the Bowhunters? The word THEY is very general and speaks of La as a whole. Pmantle has posted a plan and he seems to care, and he lives in La and he is a hunter. I think I speak for all that La does care no matter which side your on


----------



## Marvin

cynic said:


> I see that you play follow the leader well. Unfortunately I here more whining from you than anyone wanting to use a xbow. We have not whined about your choice to use the compound, but plenty of whining about what if's and the use of the xbow. The xbow will be coming it is a matter of time. Lets find a place to use them. A place that will benefit not only the hunter but also the commission and wildlife.


Do you have JImC on ignore? I ask you why do we have to find a common ground? I believe virgina had 7000 new hunter s this year with the crossbow...So is it better to make 7000 people happy or 50,000 people happy?


----------



## PMantle

cynic said:


> When you say that they don't care about the whitetail are you including the Bowhunters? The word THEY is very general and speaks of La as a whole. Pmantle has posted a plan and he seems to care, and he lives in La and he is a hunter. I think I speak for all that La does care no matter which side your on


So that there is no confusion, that is not something I came up with. It is something another bowhunter suggested, and I happen to support. I am sorry if I insinuated that it was my plan.


----------



## cynic

Marvin said:


> Do you have JImC on ignore? I ask you why do we have to find a common ground? I believe virgina had 7000 new hunter s this year with the crossbow...So is it better to make 7000 people happy or 50,000 people happy?


And do you know that the addition of 7000 crossbow hunters had little to no impact on the 50,000 others and out of that 50,000 how many switched from verticle bows to the xbow.


----------



## cynic

PMantle said:


> So that there is no confusion, that is not something I came up with. It is something another bowhunter suggested, and I happen to support. I am sorry if I insinuated that it was my plan.


I just used it to show that people of LA do care. Not to try to make anyone think that you wrote it. Sorry for any confusion.


----------



## cynic

Marvin said:


> Were over 500 posts deep and you want to play semantics.....good lord if the commission cared SO much they would keep track wouldn't they? thought so


So are you saying that the LDWF is an incompetent non caring? The "thought so" adds a nice touch but took very little thought


----------



## PMantle

cynic said:


> So are you saying that the LDWF is an incompetent non caring? The "thought so" adds a nice touch but took very little thought



This is my belief from watching what goes on, so take it for what it's worth. The commission and the legislators care more about local squeaky wheels than they do about facts. Doc can say all he wants to about the legislative process. This is La., not NY. If the crossbow squeak is louder than the BSBA, we will have crossbows in archery season. It is that simple. Facts won't matter one bit. If they did, we would have real numbers, a management plan, and some sort of tagging system already. I believe the people at the LDWF do care, but they are powerless to do anything without the commission and the legislators.


----------



## cynic

PMantle said:


> This is my belief from watching what goes on, so take it for what it's worth. The commission and the legislators care more about local squeaky wheels than they do about facts. Doc can say all he wants to about the legislative process. This is La., not NY. If the crossbow squeak is louder than the BSBA, we will have crossbows in archery season. It is that simple. Facts won't matter one bit. If they did, we would have real numbers, a management plan, and some sort of tagging system already. I believe the people at the LDWF do care, but they are powerless to do anything without the commission and the legislators.


I don't see that, here we can shoot 2 deer a day all season long with a 2deer possession limit. We don't have to tell anybody anything. If you have to worry about hunters taking too many or more than there fair share, then the honor system does not work there and if there is no honor maybe there shouldn't be any hunting period..It is up to each of us to make the system work. No matter what system is inacted there will be those that find a way to beat the system..


----------



## twogun

> facts to support that the x-bow will take over the archery season, (Ohio over 50% hunt with the x-bow, fact)


How can you possibly have factual support for a totally false statement?


This is nothing more than an emotional ploy to circle the waggons and attempt to make compound hunters feel threatened.

What does it mean to "take over"?




> Main Entry: take over
> transitive senses : to assume control or possession of or responsibility for <military leaders took over the government>
> intransitive senses
> 1 : to assume control or possession
> 2 : to become dominant


For clarity I'll define dominant also.



> Main Entry: 1dom•i•nant
> Pronunciation: -n&nt
> Function: adjective
> Etymology: Middle French or Latin; Middle French, from Latin dominant-, dominans, present participle of dominari
> 1 : commanding, controlling, or prevailing over all others
> 2 : overlooking and commanding from a superior position
> 3 : of, relating to, or exerting ecological or genetic dominance
> 4 : being the one of a pair of bodily structures that is the more effective or predominant in action <dominant eye>


Crossbow hunters have not taken control or poossession of bow season. They own nothing and make no decisions concerning what takes place.

They don't command, control, or prevail over other bow hunters.

They have no superior position.

There is nothing ecologically or genetically dominant about crossbow hunters (although sometimes I wonder.:wink: )


Please explain this factual take over. If you are simply saying that crossbow hunters in Ohio out number compound hunters, so what? Where is the take over? Where is the control? Where is the dominance?


----------



## thesource

doctariAFC said:


> I have yet to see one FACT presented by the anti-side, and, in all honesty, I am waiting for this.


Shame on you. The facts that I used from OH to dismantle your "20% of gun hunters use a bow nationally" disinformation should count, shouldn't it?


----------



## twogun

thesource said:


> So what? Since its obvious (and proven in this thread repeatedly) that crossbow hunters do not have bowhunters best interests at heart, I think it would be obvious that xbow hunters outnumbering bowhunters should be viewed as threatening by the bowhunters.
> 
> Before you spout off in your usual "I'm so offended" manner, remember this....JimC has stated repeatedly that when xbows outnumber bows nationally, he will laugh as the xbows ban bows as come uppence.
> 
> You crossbow hunters have been very busy making enemies - don't feign innocence now.



FR stated that it was fact that crossbow users had "taken over". I asked him to back that up. And your support of this "factual" claim is :



> *I think* .....* should be viewed as threatening.....[/*QUOTE]
> 
> 
> 
> Sorry but the phrases " I think" and "should be viewed as" don't constitute facts. Those are opinions, points-of-view, paranoid hallucinations, etc not facts. Try again.


----------



## cynic

thesource said:


> You crossbow hunters have been very busy making enemies - don't feign innocence now.


What did you think we were going to lie down and take the nonsense that you so freely spout at any given time. You as an enemy doesn't bother me. I have many people that don't like me, I own a Repossession Agency. You have added nothing to this thread but arguement readily accusing the xbow hunter for your insecurities. What are you really afraid of? Where did all this hostility come from? Have you thought of seeking help? We are not here to make enemies nor are we here to listen to people tell us that we will ruin hunting? The xbow side is the only ones that has placed any facts in this debate. The opposition for the most part have contributed no statistic or data period for that matter for anyone to view. Please climb down off the horse he is dead now.


----------



## thesource

cynic said:


> The xbow side is the only ones that has placed any facts in this debate. The opposition for the most part have contributed no statistic or data period for that matter for anyone to view.


What is scary is that you believe this.

And you believe that you have some sort of majority.

Not here. The last poll I saw conducted in the bowhunting forum had 70% of AT members stating they did not believe xbows were even archery, let alone bows. Not out in the real world either.

And somehow, you believe that you can spit in the faces of bowhunters today, and yet think we will all be buddies in the future.

You are wrong on all counts.

You are making enemies. You are being divisive. You are doing all of those things you accuse those bad, elitist, bowhunters of doing. You are the pot calling the kettle black.

Whatever, dude. You can draw the lines, and we'll see how it all ends up.

** WARNING... GET ON TOPIC WITH SOME FACTS TO BACK UP YOUR CLAIMS. doctariAFC **


----------



## cynic

thesource said:


> What is scary is that you believe this.
> 
> And you believe that you have some sort of majority.
> 
> Not here. The last poll I saw conducted in the bowhunting forum had 70% of AT members stating they did not believe xbows were even archery, let alone bows. Not out in the real world either.
> 
> And somehow, you believe that you can spit in the faces of bowhunters today, and yet think we will all be buddies in the future.
> 
> You are wrong on all counts.
> 
> You are making enemies. You are being divisive. You are doing all of those things you accuse those bad, elitist, bowhunters of doing. You are the pot calling the kettle black.
> 
> Whatever, dude. You can draw the lines, and we'll see how it all ends up.


I see that you are from upstate New York, Rikers Island maybe. Plz correct the spelling if I'm wrong...I don't want your friendship I am not bashing other bowhunters..Just the ones like you that have no real cause in life and only serve to let the rest of us know what not to become.

** WARNING... No Personal Attacks - :nono: doctariAFC **


----------



## TNUSA-1

As far as Ft Polk, they are sanctioned with NFAA, ASA, and ACF I'll get ATA in there Monday I just didnt know about it. Ft Polk is now the largest 3D range in the state, but a small range just outside near Deridder was probabley losing money, so they sat on this wonderful range for over a year and didn't do anything with it. There really are anti-hunters at work there, I have to fight them all the time, imagine skeet shooters that only believe you should own shotguns.

This I've had to deal with for 10 years. So I know anti-hunter cannibals.

This bunch will build a fine facility and then never use it, allowing it to exsist but no real activities. That is now changing but you have to have the right people in place or it will be very slow.

I was told it took a year to get the ASA there. When I checked into the fact it took about 5 minutes and a phone call, same with NFAA which was 1st but got stonewalled as usal...a TNUSA afilliate. It all boils down to jelousy of who did what. As far as the American Crossbow Federation we got them in 2 minutes. ATA is next. That way we can have any kind of sponsored event for the soldiers and everybody else can play. Thats the way MWR looks at it and TNUSA as well.

Now pull a boner on a federal instalation like discriminating against any one of those outfits will get you escorted off post in a heart beat. Its everybody or nothing thats all there is to it. That needs to be taken into concideration and a good lesson learned here. We have the place to have any event, they just have to wait their turn....but if it gets into eliteism they are out of there.

I had to adjust The Top Gun Challenge as that group got so good, we had to start a new begginner class, of course that was not a problem it just made the match bigger and better, but shows rightfully that MWR is about fairness and appearence.

Thats why we are taking such a dim view on the anti-crossbow issue, very biased. That doesn't work and anyone connected with it stands to lose a great deal.


----------



## thesource

cynic said:


> I see that you are from upstate New York, Rikers Island maybe. Plz correct the spelling if I'm wrong...I don't want your friendship I am not bashing other bowhunters..Just the ones like you that have no real cause in life and only serve to let the rest of us know what not to become.


Yea - I have a cause. Thanks to guys like you.

You are bashing ALL bowhunters. You have stiffened my resolve - I don't want guys like you claiming to be bowhunters when they clearly are not. You deserve whatever abuse you get - did you ever consider the lack of respect has nothing to do with the crossbow and everything to do with the guy who wants to hold it?

** WARNING... NUMBER TWO... Source, no one is interested in your fear-laden opinions and elitist claims. Back up what you fear with some facts. Justify this opinion. Means nothing to a debate to spout baseless opinions, and this is clearly against the guidelines set forth. Correct this or be gone... doctariAFC **


----------



## cynic

thesource said:


> Yea - I have a cause. Thanks to guys like you.
> 
> You are bashing ALL bowhunters. You have stiffened my resolve - I don't want guys like you claiming to be bowhunters when they clearly are not. You deserve whatever abuse you get - did you ever consider the lack of respect has nothing to do with the crossbow and everything to do with the guy who wants to hold it?


Your attitude does not command respect..Respect begats respect..


----------



## cynic

thesource said:


> I could care less what you think of me, personally.
> 
> It is you and your "type" that are sniveling and whining about a lack of respect from bowhunters.
> 
> Given how you have acted here, it is small wonder that they kick you around.


Take deeeeeeeeeep breathes Its okay to be angry...that's the first step to overcoming your insecurity..Nobody's kicking me I can take way more than what you have to dish. but lets wait til Doc has the flaming thread. I'll meet you there. As for this thread I have been asked to stop by my friends you know the other bowhunters.


----------



## doctariAFC

*Go Flame Somewhere Else!*

The Flame Fest for a Day is now Open for bizness.... Take the petty BALONEY and get it out of your system in the appropriate place. Then, take a breath. Return to the higher standards of CLASS, represent HUNTERS in a good and intelligent light, and stop clogging this popular and very informative thread so others wishing to get some information can do so without your adolescent banal bloviations!


----------



## doctariAFC

Back to topic.

Pmantle. Yes, I do believe the crossbows are equivalent to compound bows. I however am a businessman, and I keenly am aware that each State's respective conservation fund needs cash infusions in a big way. Louisiana will never get to a tag/ game report system statewide without funding to do so, and the conservation fund is typically used in part to fund such measures.

I also believe that crossbows operate in a different fashion than compound bows, and I am a big believer in good education in terms of safety, plus demonstrating a desire to INVEST in your priveledges if you desire to capitalize on them. This added cost also serves to "weed out" the undesireables through cost, which is a solution to assuage the fear of having your woods full of joeys. On the other hand, most of these joeys spend a whopping one or two days in the woods to begin with, so perhaps its a moot point.

A question was asked regarding NYS license costs, are we comparable to LA costs?  The closest we were to LA's bow license fee was $11.00, which went up to $16.00 for residents in 2002. NY Resident Bow Hunters must also purchase the Big Game License, which costs an additional $19.00, which is combo big and small game (this was recently combined into one in 2002, I believe) Muzzleloading is another $16.00. Do participate in all three, beyond the education requirements you can either pay $53.00 (Big Game, Small Game, Fishing and bow stamp), or you can get the Super Sportsman, which covers all of this, plus Turkey Permit (Reg $5.00) and Season Fishing (reg $19.00) and ML(reg $16) for a total of $68.00. For another $8.00, you can have all that plus help add more into the conservation fund by adding the Habitat Stamp which goes 100% to the CF, I believe, bringing your total fee for all the Outdoors fun in NYS for residents to $76.00. Of course, since I also get the Duck Stamp, my total bill each season is $91.00, and I hear the duck stamp is about to increase in price.

Look, the benefits of this addition (crossbows in LA) are pretty apparent. Increased hunters potentially buying additional licenses, and gear, while in the process perhaps affording LA to hold the pricing line a little while longer. NY is examining another license fee advance in the face of a CF budget deficit this year. You have plenty of needs in Louisiana, and NONE of these needs will be met without revenue. What a golden opportunity. Do some math. Guesstimate how many folks may be drawn to the sport. This can be done using the data from other states, gettiung to an average gain %, then run that % against LA hunters, and then multiply that number by the average spend per hunter in LA ($1100.00 per, total). Want a clear NET realization of revenue? Take the most current trends which show what % decline, subtract them from the total using the $ figures, and voila, you have an idea of what this will do for Louisiana Sportsmen and women. At the VERY WORST, the dropping dollars will be buoyed a bit by the surge of additional participants. To find out if some staying power exists, examine a more historical state and plot it out. Of course other factors will drive declines, but you get a starting point by going through this exercise.

Don't think this kind of work gets results? HA! These are very similar tasks and resulting information I used to present to multi-billion dollar corporations to generate million dollar orders. True the world over.


----------



## doctariAFC

MARVIN said:


> Doc in New York...what kinda price range are we talking about? I think the problem with LA is that they don't seemingly care about the whitetail
> as a revenue generator. Unlike where you and I are from, whitetails are not king. It may not have the same effect in La as it would in Ohio and New york. From what has beenposted here, they don't even seem concerned about the keeping track of the herd at all..


This is an interesting observation, although I would hazard a guess that not too many sportsmen approach their beloved pastimes in a business fashion, despite the majority of hunters possessing above-average education and income levels. Seems like in life we can examine these critical decisions with some objectivity, but when it boils down to hunting, we seem to really go ******ed. Some of the decisions that are made certainly illustrate this. However, on the other hand, recreational activity expansion has always occurred, and somebody must have been able to put two and two together (more recreational opportunity = larger potential revenue stream!) Not so much to make this corporate profit, but to enable the resources to fund conservation efforts and enforcement to happen. 

So, to play devil's advocate, I will simply ask a very important question regarding the proposed tagging system. How much will the new protocols cost in transition, plus costs in labor, in terms of enforcement efforts, etc., etc. This is where fact finding comes into play. In this scenario, go and ask a state's budget office that runs a system you wish to model and ask them how much it costs them. Somewhere in the budget is a breakdown of where the spending happens. You can glean this from there. Then, figure out what your own state budget spends on, and figure out if its affordable. If it isn't, you're gonna need to offer a revenue source solution to really get some interest. Its all about money with the politicians, and if you do some of the work in spending and revenue projections in front of as many of them as you can, they seem to listen a little more intently. The neat part is that the dissenting side, without referenced, provable information in the face of your documented work, you gain a bit more credibility. Of course, if a campaign is raised against you, with petitions representing angry mobs with torches and pitchforks, votes ultimately count more (in theory) and that also speaks volumes.


----------



## Jim C

twogun said:


> FR stated that it was fact that crossbow users had "taken over". I asked him to back that up. And your support of this "factual" claim is :
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *I think* .....* should be viewed as threatening.....[/*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sorry but the phrases " I think" and "should be viewed as" don't constitute facts. Those are opinions, points-of-view, paranoid hallucinations, etc not facts. Try again.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> the hysteria-taken from the PBS site (they are the ones who started this crap about xbows "taking over the season" would ONLY HAVE MERIT if we xbow hunters treated the PBS the same way they treat us.
> 
> I have asked many times what inherent additional good is generated if all xbow hunters changed to compounds? NO ONE HAS ever told me why the country, the society, God Mom and Apple pie is improved by a society that hunts with compounds instead of crossbows.
> 
> IF all compounds were to evaporate and every bowhunter had to use a crossbow-would society be hurt? absolutely not-its not like compound hunters are serving as the source for our olympic archery teams or even our top compound target archers.
> 
> so tell me folks-what intrinsic good is furthered by keeping archery season "pure" (LOL) and compound only
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...


----------



## progers

thesource said:


> Yea - I have a cause. Thanks to guys like you.
> 
> You are bashing ALL bowhunters. You have stiffened my resolve - I don't want guys like you claiming to be bowhunters when they clearly are not. You deserve whatever abuse you get - did you ever consider the lack of respect has nothing to do with the crossbow and everything to do with the guy who wants to hold it?
> 
> ** WARNING... NUMBER TWO... Source, no one is interested in your fear-laden opinions and elitist claims. Back up what you fear with some facts. Justify this opinion. Means nothing to a debate to spout baseless opinions, and this is clearly against the guidelines set forth. Correct this or be gone... doctariAFC **



Thesource, WE are all bowhunters here, the group that you are calling the "pro-crossbow" side. This is not just about crossbows. This is about HUNTERS RIGHTS. I wish you could understand that. Until you step out of the box and quit thinking about what you're friends are going to think of you, you will never understand. If you're friend is not going to like you because you agree that people should be allowed to hunt with an xbow then, they were never your TRUE friends to begin with.

We are bowhunters, MZL hunters, shotgun hunters, dog hunters and rifle hunters. We are PRO-HUNTER not PRO-CROSSBOW! We all share one common ground, HUNTING! We love our sport. We are bashing nobody. We are embracing ALL. I'm just a HUNTER, simple as that. I'm not partial to any one thing. I have an open mind. I'll pray for the day that all hunters can unite to be part of the "Big Picture". But, just because I don't support "bowhunting" ONLY, you label me as a "bowbasher" and that is just CRAZIEEE MAN!!!!  

So, now you agree that the crossbow should be allowed to shoot BUGS??? Man, I just don't understand where you are coming from Bro.


The squeaky wheel gets the grease: Man, we gonna make some noise then. I was told that when this got started that I would never be heard. Dude, it seems that my name and my words have been heard thru out all the land. I'm not bragging but, just showing the point that EVERYONE has a VOICE and that VOICE can be HEARD! Just get your priorities in order and learn the facts and stick to that. It will take you along way. I have even had the opportunity to speak with a few of my "heros" from the Outdoor Channel! WOW! Little Ol' me did that! The letters I get everyday is just amazing. The support is just flowing in. It is unbelievable of the support we are getting. The reason why: because it is the RIGHT thing to do and the people are understanding that.


Guess what? We will not back down. We vow to work to fight for ALL hunters rights from a non-bias standpoint. That is the only fair thing to do. We vow to fight for bowhunters rights. But, your right does not include keeping other people from hunting. We don't support that and we never will. 

I'm gonna wake up each morning and hold my head high because I know in my heart that what we are doing is the right thing. We support all hunters as long as they stay within the "etical" guidelines. 

Hunting is the tradition, not just bowhunting. Not just crossbows. Not just MZL and firearms. 

As I hunt with bows, I am not a bowbasher. Simply put, I support ALL my bloodbrothers, no matter of what you use. Safety First. Respect the wildlife. Respect the land. Respect all your fellow hunters. That is my guidelines, how about you?

My resolve is to be a better man and treat each and every descent hunter with respect. Some here have vowed to fight to take away their rights. We will continue to clash thru out time. All I can tell you is, THE GOOD GUYS ALWAYS WIN! It is your choice to pick what color you will wear from here on out, not mine. If I "offend" you it is because you have done something to "offend" others. 

It saddens me to have to fight with any hunter but hey, I love all sportsmen and women as my brothers and sisters and blood is thicker than water. We grow stronger everyday. We will continue to grow. We will fight for the right reasons. 

We are PRO-HUNTERS, not PRO-CROSSBOW! You need to learn the difference. You need to do some soul searching and pass on a great tradition to your children as they are all we have.

Happy Hunting!
~P~


----------



## Free Range

> crossbow will decimate the deer herds?


Doc, I did not say this, if you keep this up I will start thinking Jim is posting under your name. What I said is if the number of deer being killed in archery season continues to climb, it could lead to shortening the season. Why is the gun season so short in most states? It’s because they kill as many deer as needed to control the herds in that amount of time, if they for some reason started killing more the season would have to be shortened or the numbers of hunters allowed to hunt controlled. Same thing goes for archery season, if the number of deer killed during archery season grows to a point that it is affecting the management of the deer herd then something will have to be done. Yes in a lot of the eastern states this is far from becoming a problem because of the booming deer herds, but that is not the case in all states. And from what I hear form those that hunt public ground back east they booming deer herds are on land that can’t be hunted anyway, so the numbers of deer are miss-leading when it comes to availability to these deer. 
I will go back and read all of Progers post and see if I can find the facts he posted that I missed.
Be back when I’m done.

Twogun you are almost not worth answering, to take over, to out number, if there are more Democrates in the House than Republicans then they have taken over the house. They could vote to do what ever they want as long as it's with in the law, and of course they could make new laws to cover what is not. Same here the x-bow out numbers the bow in Ohio, if they wanted to they could have laws passed that would be detrimental to bow hunters, ask Jim how likely that is. But beyond that now the x-bow is more prominent in that state and when a new person comes to the sport they would be more likely to be a x-bow user, thus destroying the archery tradition in that state. If you want to try and argue that a majority is not taking over then you go ahead any rational person understands what the phrase “the majority rules” means.



> By Jim
> I have asked many times what inherent additional good is generated if all xbow hunters changed to compounds? NO ONE HAS ever told me why the country, the society, God Mom and Apple pie is improved by a society that hunts with compounds instead of crossbows.


And just what inherent good is there if the x-bow is allowed, no one has answered that either, nice try Jim, but lacking as always.



> By progers
> This is not just about crossbows. This is about HUNTERS RIGHTS.


Oh really? How many times have we/I be told this is about the x-bow and to get back on subject? You can’t have it both ways, oh and how come no one will tell me what we are trying to prove with these facts, this is not fair, because I don’t want to bring any more facts up and be told I’m on the wrong trail again. Please, someone help me what are we trying to prove with these facts. 



> By progers
> We are PRO-HUNTERS, not PRO-CROSSBOW! You need to learn the difference. You need to do some soul searching and pass on a great tradition to your children as they are all we have.


If this is true then why are you causing such a division between hunters?


----------



## BIG-DAWG

GREETINGS TO ALL!!!!!! I am new to this site. I see that I have joined right in the middle of a huge debat. I guess I should state my standings on the subject!! And, to tell ya'll a little about myself. I am a HUNTER, and I support all hunters rights! I love bow hunting, muzzleloader, and rifle. I also have never understood why the crossbow is such a taboo. I think that it is a great tool for hunting. I would love to shoot one, I believe that it would be fun, maybe as fun as shooting a compound bow. I have never had the chance to shoot a crossbow, but have seen it on the outdoors channel. It is an amazing piece of equipment. I would enjoy being able to shoot one. Again, I would like to state that "I am a hunter, and an outdoorsman". I respect all of your "opinions", and it seems that this is what this whole debat is about, all of your opinions. The simple truth of the matter is...A crossbow is a weapon that can be used to harvest animals. It should be a hunters right to hunt with this weapon if he so chooses. It is not legal to use one in my great state of Louisiana at this time, but (theres always a but) I have talked with a number of people and know that it is coming. There are several new laws about to come forth in my state, such as the tagging system (which WILL become a reality within the next two years). In my opinion, you are either for hunters rights, or you are against hunters rights. Please stop the "Bashing" of each other and band together...The force would be unstopable!! Thank you for your time and god bless you all!! Hunt safe and hunt well!!! You are ALL my brothers!!


----------



## doctariAFC

BIG-DAWG said:


> GREETINGS TO ALL!!!!!! I am new to this site. I see that I have joined right in the middle of a huge debat. I guess I should state my standings on the subject!! And, to tell ya'll a little about myself. I am a HUNTER, and I support all hunters rights! I love bow hunting, muzzleloader, and rifle. I also have never understood why the crossbow is such a taboo. I think that it is a great tool for hunting. I would love to shoot one, I believe that it would be fun, maybe as fun as shooting a compound bow. I have never had the chance to shoot a crossbow, but have seen it on the outdoors channel. It is an amazing piece of equipment. I would enjoy being able to shoot one. Again, I would like to state that "I am a hunter, and an outdoorsman". I respect all of your "opinions", and it seems that this is what this whole debat is about, all of your opinions. The simple truth of the matter is...A crossbow is a weapon that can be used to harvest animals. It should be a hunters right to hunt with this weapon if he so chooses. It is not legal to use one in my great state of Louisiana at this time, but (theres always a but) I have talked with a number of people and know that it is coming. There are several new laws about to come forth in my state, such as the tagging system (which WILL become a reality within the next two years). In my opinion, you are either for hunters rights, or you are against hunters rights. Please stop the "Bashing" of each other and band together...The force would be unstopable!! Thank you for your time and god bless you all!! Hunt safe and hunt well!!! You are ALL my brothers!!


:amen: and welcome to the debate!!


----------



## PMantle

doctariAFC said:


> Look, the benefits of this addition (crossbows in LA) are pretty apparent. Increased hunters potentially buying additional licenses, while in the process perhaps affording LA to hold the pricing line a little while longer. .


For this to work, some things would have to be true that are currently unknowns. 1. Crossbows would have to have their own stamp. This seems contradictory to the crossbows are archery deal. 2. If no new stamp, then the users would have to come from either the non-archery ranks(they'd buy one more stamp) or from the current non-hunting crowd. Remember, kids don't count. Now, you're the man with the numbers. When crossbows are introduced, do people begin buying licenses who previously did not buy even the basic hunting license?


----------



## doctariAFC

Free Range said:


> Doc, I did not say this, if you keep this up I will start thinking Jim is posting under your name. What I said is if the number of deer being killed in archery season continues to climb, it could lead to shortening the season. Why is the gun season so short in most states? It’s because they kill as many deer as needed to control the herds in that amount of time, if they for some reason started killing more the season would have to be shortened or the numbers of hunters allowed to hunt controlled. Same thing goes for archery season, if the number of deer killed during archery season grows to a point that it is affecting the management of the deer herd then something will have to be done. Yes in a lot of the eastern states this is far from becoming a problem because of the booming deer herds, but that is not the case in all states. And from what I hear form those that hunt public ground back east they booming deer herds are on land that can’t be hunted anyway, so the numbers of deer are miss-leading when it comes to availability to these deer.
> I will go back and read all of Progers post and see if I can find the facts he posted that I missed.
> Be back when I’m done.


Apologies for jumping on you like that, but the shortening of seasons is not in the cards at this time. When we compare the total harvests of archery, including crossbows, to that of firearms, we can realize that this concern is somewhat all wet. I base this observation in the History of deer hunting. Each season we see growing herds. Sure, some years bring some declines, while other years see explosions. Since the early 1900's, deer seasons and limtis have done only one thing. BOTH have expanded. This will continue as our conservation practices have been proven through the test of time to be correct, sound and most beneficial. Habitat management, on the other hand, could use some "tweaking" to say the least.

If concern exists from over-harvest of deer, the place to focus is not on shortening hunting seasons, but curtailing the nuisance deer permit programs. That is far more of a dnager to herd health than a crossbow could ever be, even if every gun hunter picked one up and used on throughout all seasons. History and the facts tell us this concern is artificial.


----------



## doctariAFC

PMantle said:


> For this to work, some things would have to be true that are currently unknowns. 1. Crossbows would have to have their own stamp. This seems contradictory to the crossbows are archery deal. 2. If no new stamp, then the users would have to come from either the non-archery ranks(they'd buy one more stamp) or from the current non-hunting crowd. Remember, kids don't count. Now, you're the man with the numbers. When crossbows are introduced, do people begin buying licenses who previously did not buy even the basic hunting license?


Yes. These folks come generally from the ranks of Anglers, interested in becoming more of an all-around sportsman. I'll have to crunch the numbers from KY and GA and VA to come up with a somewhat accurate %, but, yes, additional choices do tend to draw folks from other outdoors recreational interests.

I understand where you're coming from with the additional stamp cost. What I would recommend is that someone in LA gets with one of your Conservation Fund Advisory Board (or equivalent) members and ask, "How is the Conservation Fund's health in LA?" Start from there. This should be one of the major motivators in determining whether crossbow hunting should require an additional fee or no. After all, if the CF is dropping, the inevitable license fee increase is soon to follow. Adding more revenue to the CF in the face of falling hunter numbers may have merit?


----------



## twogun

Free Range,



> Twogun you are almost not worth answering, to take over, to out number, if there are more Democrates in the House than Republicans then they have taken over the house. They could vote to do what ever they want as long as it's with in the law, and of course they could make new laws to cover what is not. Same here the x-bow out numbers the bow in Ohio, if they wanted to they could have laws passed that would be detrimental to bow hunters, ask Jim how likely that is. But beyond that now the x-bow is more prominent in that state and when a new person comes to the sport they would be more likely to be a x-bow user, thus destroying the archery tradition in that state. If you want to try and argue that a majority is not taking over then you go ahead any rational person understands what the phrase “the majority rules” means.


The indignant nature of your post illustrates your lack of confidence in your stated “fact”. To suggest that out numbering and taking over are synonymous is again totally inaccurate. Numbers without power or authority are meaningless. Your attempted analogy comparing crossbow hunters and compound hunters to elected congressional officials who are granted the power by the Constitution of the United States to make laws is ludicrous. Crossbow hunters have no special power or authority. There is no legal document that grants bow hunters of any kind the special power to do anything concerning the creation of or regulation of any hunting season or practice. The only fact about your claim that “crossbows have taken over” is that you are flat out wrong and can not back up what you claimed.

Now you are trying to switch from “taking over” to “more prominent” and “destroying the archery tradition” . More prominent is a fact supportable by documentation, but that doesn't make much of a rallying argument does it? “Destroying the archery tradition” is an emotional ploy based on nothing more than opinion. There is nothing factual about it.


----------



## progers

> Oh really? How many times have we/I be told this is about the x-bow and to get back on subject?


It is about hunters rights. It just so happens that crossbows got caught up in the middle of it. That is not my fault. We have people fighting to take away their rights and people fighting to keep the others from ever getting the right. As far as telling you to get back on topic it was for drifting off discussing MZL and centerfire rifle comparison.




> Same here the x-bow out numbers the bow in Ohio, if they wanted to they could have laws passed that would be detrimental to bow hunters, ask Jim how likely that is. But beyond that now the x-bow is more prominent in that state and when a new person comes to the sport they would be more likely to be a x-bow user, thus destroying the archery tradition in that state. If you want to try and argue that a majority is not taking over then you go ahead any rational person understands what the phrase “the majority rules” means.


I haven't ran the numbers on Ohio yet so, I can't argue them. I can tell you that Arkansas has had xbow hunting since the very beginning of archery season there, longer than Ohio. Now, the xbow hunters in Arkansas are a fraction of the compound hunters in that State. The xbow deer kills vs. traditionalist deer kills is just a fraction, also. Your theory bucket holds no water.

Even if Ohio does have more "bowhunters" than "xbow" hunters, it is not a majority. Given the fact that you must factor in ALL states that include xbow hunters, the xbow is still a minority compared to the "bowhunters" over all. That is a fact.

I would be intrested in knowing the sex and ages of the xbow hunters in Ohio. I wonder what the women and youths look like for that state?




> Please, someone help me what are we trying to prove with these facts.


As far as your statement Free Range about not telling you what the facts are suppose to prove, try reading the rules. It states it in there. If you can not figure out what both sides are trying to prove here, you have no business being in the debate at all.




> But beyond that now the x-bow is more prominent in that state and when a new person comes to the sport they would be more likely to be a x-bow user, thus destroying the archery tradition in that state.


Hunting is the tradition! 

Destroying the traditional archery season in the state? From who's perspective would that be? The compound destroyed the actual traditional sport in the state from the eyes of the longbow and recurve hunters. But, in all actuallity, it just made it stronger, just as the xbow will do and is already doing in many states as we speak.




> Quote:
> By progers
> We are PRO-HUNTERS, not PRO-CROSSBOW! You need to learn the difference. You need to do some soul searching and pass on a great tradition to your children as they are all we have.





> If this is true then why are you causing such a division between hunters?


I'm not. They division was already made way before I came along. Now, they are burning the bridges. I'm just trying to bring everyone together. I am trying to unite ALL archers as the anti-xbow side pushes to divide and strip hunting rights of the xbow archers.

YES, xbow users are archers.

Definitions:

ARCHERS: someone who shoots a bow.

BOW: a weapon that shoots an arrow.


----------



## progers

PMantle said:


> For this to work, some things would have to be true that are currently unknowns. 1. Crossbows would have to have their own stamp. This seems contradictory to the crossbows are archery deal. 2. If no new stamp, then the users would have to come from either the non-archery ranks(they'd buy one more stamp) or from the current non-hunting crowd. Remember, kids don't count. Now, you're the man with the numbers. When crossbows are introduced, do people begin buying licenses who previously did not buy even the basic hunting license?



1. The archery permit should cover it just fine. If it is made to get a seperate stamp, it will be used against the xbow in saying that it is NOT archery equipment, which it is.

2. For one, I don't see the "compound" users dropping their bows to shoot something that is going to be more trouble to deal with in the woods. That being said, most of the new xbow shooters WILL be from either the non-hunting crowd and non-archery ranks.

REMEMBER: YES, the KIDS do count! As you must go thru a hunters education course and obtain a license by the age of 15! 

LAST: EVERYONE who hunts, even big game only, MUST purchase a basic hunting license in the state of Louisiana! Even if you "bowhunt" only, you MUST buy a basic and big game license.


----------



## cynic

You guys keep talking about the archery tradition. Traditional archery left years ago at the conception of the compound. If you want to call it a tradition look at the states that traditionally have allowed the xbow for nearly as long as the compound. Since there are so many posters from areas outside of La, you need to look at all traditions not just your tradition. What each of us calls a tradition is no more than a personal belief. Such as opening presents on xmas eve is a tradition in some peoples home but not mine but that does not change the tradition. Traditions are past on from generation to generation. Using a longbow recurve compound or xbow is not a tradtion it is a choice of weapon. Bowhunting is not a tradition it is a form of recreation that allows for the taking of wild game. Those of us that choose to participate year after year make it a personal tradition. 
Most of us that hunt with a recurve is not for tradition it is to carry a different weapon with different challenges for lack of better expression a "novelty". It has as many similarities as difference, Just as some days a squirrel hunter may take a 12ga shotgun one day and a 20ga the next both kill them just as dead. Bows (xbows included) are the same not matter which bow you take it is the same bowhunting. I am fortunate that I can hunt something in my state somewhere all year long. Traditionally I start during Archery and end with spring gobbler but this year the Tradition is going to change as my brother wants to hog hunt on his property in Taylor cnty so we will be hunting the rest of the year. Hunting with a vertical bow in La is not a tradition it is the only allowed method at this time. Tradition is doing it because you want to, not because you have no choice.


----------



## Free Range

Twogun, maybe you need a bit of a lesson in basic American government, what is the phrase I’m looking for, hmm I think it goes something like this government for the people BY the people, if you don’t think the majority has any power then you need to take your head out of the sand and look around once and awhile. FACT the majority rules. 



> It is about hunters rights. It just so happens that crossbows got caught up in the middle of it. That is not my fault. We have people fighting to take away their rights and people fighting to keep the others from ever getting the right. As far as telling you to get back on topic it was for drifting off discussing MZL and centerfire rifle comparison.


OK then we don’t need any facts about the x-bow, all we need is facts about hunters rights. That’s easy the hunter has no rights in this country, just privileges, and there is nothing that says you have a right to use a x-bow at any time for any reason, FACT, FACT, FACT. So that should settle this whole thing, stop crying about rights you never had, and will never have. 



> I haven't ran the numbers on Ohio yet so, I can't argue them. I can tell you that Arkansas has had xbow hunting since the very beginning of archery season there, longer than Ohio. Now, the xbow hunters in Arkansas are a fraction of the compound hunters in that State. The xbow deer kills vs. traditionalist deer kills is just a fraction, also. Your theory bucket holds no water.





> Even if Ohio does have more "bowhunters" than "xbow" hunters, it is not a majority. Given the fact that you must factor in ALL states that include xbow hunters, the xbow is still a minority compared to the "bowhunters" over all. That is a fact.





> I would be intrested in knowing the sex and ages of the xbow hunters in Ohio. I wonder what the women and youths look like for that state?


So now you don’t believe my numbers, it is a fact that over 50% (a majority) of hunters in archery season use a x-bow in Ohio. Arkansas is a different state, with different conditions, WY has had them forever too, and there are very few used in that state, so. Are we to only pull the stats we like, what makes you think LA is more like AR then OH? I asked the question of what we are trying to prove, and no one wants to answer, maybe if the parameters were clear I could bring something more substantial to the plate. All of the facts I have quoted are just that facts without meaning, lets focus this to a single theory or hypothesis at a time, ok? 



> As far as your statement Free Range about not telling you what the facts are suppose to prove, try reading the rules. It states it in there. If you can not figure out what both sides are trying to prove here, you have no business being in the debate at all.


I just went back and read doctariAFC’s opening post no where could I find where he defined what it is we are trying to prove, all he said was use facts, facts for what I ask. Facts to prove hunter retention, recruitment, increased funds, crowded woods, herd depletion, or are we just trying to prove the generic it's good to have them or it's bad to have them



> Hunting is the tradition!
> 
> Destroying the traditional archery season in the state? From who's perspective would that be? The compound destroyed the actual traditional sport in the state from the eyes of the longbow and recurve hunters. But, in all actuallity, it just made it stronger, just as the xbow will do and is already doing in many states as we speak.


Hunting is not the tradition, if it was then why are you not hunting with what is now available? The argument here is over archery season, as I see it. 
Made it stronger from who’s perspective? Is that a fact or just your opinion?



> I'm not. They division was already made way before I came along. Now, they are burning the bridges. I'm just trying to bring everyone together. I am trying to unite ALL archers as the anti-xbow side pushes to divide and strip hunting rights of the xbow archers.
> 
> YES, xbow users are archers.
> 
> Definitions:
> 
> ARCHERS: someone who shoots a bow.
> 
> BOW: a weapon that shoots an arrow.


When you join the side of those pushing the x-bow you join the side that has caused this division, any way you look at it. Again with the rights, see above.
And your definition of a bow is way off the mark.


----------



## progers

cynic said:


> You guys keep talking about the archery tradition. Traditional archery left years ago at the conception of the compound. If you want to call it a tradition look at the states that traditionally have allowed the xbow for nearly as long as the compound. Since there are so many posters from areas outside of La, you need to look at all traditions not just your tradition. What each of us calls a tradition is no more than a personal belief. Such as opening presents on xmas eve is a tradition in some peoples home but not mine but that does not change the tradition. Traditions are past on from generation to generation. Using a longbow recurve compound or xbow is not a tradtion it is a choice of weapon. Bowhunting is not a tradition it is a form of recreation that allows for the taking of wild game. Those of us that choose to participate year after year make it a personal tradition.
> Most of us that hunt with a recurve is not for tradition it is to carry a different weapon with different challenges for lack of better expression a "novelty". It has as many similarities as difference, Just as some days a squirrel hunter may take a 12ga shotgun one day and a 20ga the next both kill them just as dead. Bows (xbows included) are the same not matter which bow you take it is the same bowhunting. I am fortunate that I can hunt something in my state somewhere all year long. Traditionally I start during Archery and end with spring gobbler but this year the Tradition is going to change as my brother wants to hog hunt on his property in Taylor cnty so we will be hunting the rest of the year. Hunting with a vertical bow in La is not a tradition it is the only allowed method at this time. Tradition is doing it because you want to, not because you have no choice.



DUDE! I never thought of that before! You are absolutly right! Xbows have been in the hunting worls, in some states, just as long as the other bows!

You are a genius! Hence, xbows ARE traditional archery equipment!

That is awesome insight!


----------



## thesource

cynic said:


> Bows (xbows included) are the same not matter which bow you take it is the same bowhunting.


yea -except for that dumb draw and hold thing.


----------



## progers

thesource said:


> yea -except for that dumb draw and hold thing.


What? The draw lock for a compound?


----------



## thesource

I actually believe drawlocks are a good compromise for this whole mess.

You would still have to hold it, aim it, and shoot it like a bow.

And no Exomax advantages or scopes - I like it!

Of course, there would be yahoos who would drawlock at 104# or so......


What's your opinion on the drawlock instead of a crossbow? Inquiring minds want to know...


----------



## PMantle

thesource said:


> I actually believe drawlocks are a good compromise for this whole mess.
> 
> You would still have to hold it, aim it, and shoot it like a bow.
> 
> And no Exomax advantages or scopes - I like it!
> 
> Of course, there would be yahoos who would drawlock at 104# or so......
> 
> 
> What's your opinion on the drawlock instead of a crossbow? Inquiring minds want to know...


You'll see the same opposition to those here as you see for crossbows.


----------



## thesource

DougK said:


> why would there be a compromise?
> 
> and why would you be willing to accept a drawlock?


I realize I need to spell it for you, although I'm sure the rest are capable of comprehending....

Because, Doug, a drawlock goes on a real bow. You still must hold the bow in one hand and release the string with the other. It would require the same two plane sighting that a real bow does. No scope, no padded shooting rails, no other gun accesories. You know, a BOW.

Got it now, or do you need it broken down into even simpler terms?
** See above.... The flames go to the Flame Fest for a Day, please... Keep this thread flame-free. Thanks - doctariAFC **


----------



## cynic

Remember guys the flaming thread is next door....At this point the only compromise is "when it is used and for what creatures" The debate of what it is (bow or not a bow is never going to change it is a bow with a different grip) The xbow will come to La be prepared..


----------



## PMantle

cynic said:


> The xbow will come to La be prepared..


Never happen. I just participate in these for fun.


----------



## doctariAFC

Thanks Cynic!

Now, in this thread, please :focus:


----------



## cynic

PMantle said:


> Never happen. I just participate in these for fun.


When it does can I PM you and " I told you so".


----------



## thesource

doctariAFC said:


> Thanks Cynic!
> 
> Now, in this thread, please :focus:


Doctari -

is the discussion of the drawlock (minus the retaliatory comments) an acceptable extension of the topic?

It seems to me that it would be a very good compromise.


----------



## PMantle

cynic said:


> When it does can I PM you and " I told you so".


I'll never pretend to tell you when you can PM me. After all, you already have without my say so. :wink:


----------



## Free Range

Doctari, this is for you, I just spent the last hour or so going back through this thread like I said I would, and below are the facts I found posted by progers. Not a big list and most of it is already known by all here, so what did these facts tell us? 

I guess I’m not getting my point across, or I’m saying it in a way that makes you not take me seriously. But if we / you would lead this down an orderly path maybe we could make some sense of this. Lets say that first we will discuss hunter retention, you guys bring your facts to the table and we will bring ours, then debate for a day or so the merits of each set of facts. Then we move on to over crowding of public grounds, and so on and so on. 

In reading through progers facts I don’t see any conclusion just raw numbers. Ok bow hunters are down, but gun hunters are up, why? Deer kill is up and down, why. And what does this have to do with the x-bow? I think we need to come to an agreement as to what we want to accomplish, do we want to decide amongst ourselves that the facts prove the x-bow will be good for archery, or bad, or do we just want to decide that it should be another choice for hunters, or not? If this is only about weather or not it should be another choice, well then we are wasting our time.



> The 00' - 05' deer season stats for LA:
> 
> *Resident Lic. down (-17,067)
> Senior Lic. up (+31,588)
> *Archery Lic. down (-4128)
> MZL Lic. up (+4725)
> Total Hunter #'s up (+18,000) which is out of state hunters
> Est. deer kills up (+7100)
> DMAP doe kills up (+11)
> Mod. firearm hunters up (+17,300)
> Mod. firearm deer kills up (+6500)
> Archery Equipped hunters up (+7200) which include xbows
> *Archery Equipped deer kills down (-1400) which include xbows
> MZL hunters up (+16,800)
> MZL deer kills up (+2900)
> 
> 
> an (*) marks the ones we are falling behind on.
> 
> Note. on the sheet is one error. The Big Game license is declining. The number is correct, just put a "minus" by it in the third list..(-17,067)
> 
> As archery kills are still below "quota", they are actually rising compared to 2000-2001 figures. One can draw the conclusion that since Senior's numbers are up and archery "equipped" hunters are up as archery license are down, that xbows could very well be what is trying to get the archery deer kill "quota" going in the right direction. That is just speculation but, speculation that is backed by facts.
> 
> 
> 50% of all states is restricted to handicap and/or seniors
> 50% of all states allow it unrestricted during mzl and firearm seasons
> 25% of all states allow it unrestricted in firearm and archery seasons


Then he posted the KY survey

Then some facts about the amount of public land in LA, how much of that is swamp, or some other un suitable deer habitat?

Then harvest reports for LA for 96,97,98 up and down.

Then he talks about how the license system works in LA

Then a fact that no poaching with a x-bow reported in last 4 years

Then posted the fact the hunter numbers across the country are dropping

He laid out 5 proposals, but these are not facts


----------



## thesource

Free Range -

What's the matter with you? Can't you see that when you add all that insignificant stuff together (and stir) it means they are winning? 

Another good, logical post. We know where that will get you.


----------



## PMantle

These numbers say a lot without any further commentary:

Archery Equipped hunters up (+7200) which include xbows
Archery Equipped deer kills down (-1400) which include xbows


----------



## Engelsmung

*Ferd it's beer thirty...*

quit flogging this thing..


----------



## cynic

Free Range said:


> Doctari, this is for you, I just spent the last hour or so going back through this thread like I said I would, and below are the facts I found posted by progers. Not a big list and most of it is already known by all here, so what did these facts tell us?
> 
> I guess I’m not getting my point across, or I’m saying it in a way that makes you not take me seriously. But if we / you would lead this down an orderly path maybe we could make some sense of this. Lets say that first we will discuss hunter retention, you guys bring your facts to the table and we will bring ours, then debate for a day or so the merits of each set of facts. Then we move on to over crowding of public grounds, and so on and so on.
> 
> In reading through progers facts I don’t see any conclusion just raw numbers. Ok bow hunters are down, but gun hunters are up, why? Deer kill is up and down, why. And what does this have to do with the x-bow? I think we need to come to an agreement as to what we want to accomplish, do we want to decide amongst ourselves that the facts prove the x-bow will be good for archery, or bad, or do we just want to decide that it should be another choice for hunters, or not? If this is only about weather or not it should be another choice, well then we are wasting our time.
> 
> 
> 
> Then he posted the KY survey
> 
> Then some facts about the amount of public land in LA, how much of that is swamp, or some other un suitable deer habitat?
> 
> Then harvest reports for LA for 96,97,98 up and down.
> 
> Then he talks about how the license system works in LA
> 
> Then a fact that no poaching with a x-bow reported in last 4 years
> 
> Then posted the fact the hunter numbers across the country are dropping
> 
> He laid out 5 proposals, but these are not facts


Where to start who cares if it is swamp my biggest deer kill came from a swamp. You are correct about all the statistics that PROGERS has submitted. Doc also submitted facts that were looked at as well as several others. The conclusion after reading all the facts is that there is no factual reason why the xbow should not have a place. Now if you have some other statistics as provided by any commission that show differently please bring the to the table so as to enlighten us to your infamous wisdom level. We would greatly appreciate the opposition to bring your facts as in all the posts there have been none..Now the last thing that gets my attention is you want another debate on topics that have already been debated here...Why?


----------



## cynic

Engelsmung said:


> quit flogging this thing..


I couldn't agree more..We want it some of you don't...We will never make ya'll see it. so at this point why not quit fussin' and go play with our toys somewhere else. And for the record thanks for the invite to hunt with the opposition....We may not see I to I but as a fellow hunter I will respect your position and ask the same..have a great week-end


----------



## progers

Now that is bad when you get off topic in a flaming thread!

Speaking of flaming, I just got busted for being back on loudeer.com and man, did it hit the fan.

Now, since one of them has already threatened me, another was documented running a background check on me to find my address.

I think that that constitutes a "restraining order"!

mannybobbles, the one that got banned from here was the one doing it.

I hope he posts my "little" record on the site. that would be grounds for a nice litte lawsuit!

We have any lawyers in the house?!?


----------



## doctariAFC

thesource said:


> Doctari -
> 
> is the discussion of the drawlock (minus the retaliatory comments) an acceptable extension of the topic?
> 
> It seems to me that it would be a very good compromise.


Yes, it is. I agree. The edit job was in response to the retaliatory comment.

Perhaps that discussion should be saved for another thread. Let's let some of the dust settle before we broach this one, but I would like to discuss this one some more....

Thanks


----------



## twogun

Free Range,



> Twogun, maybe you need a bit of a lesson in basic American government, what is the phrase I’m looking for, hmm I think it goes something like this government for the people BY the people, if you don’t think the majority has any power then you need to take your head out of the sand and look around once and awhile. FACT the majority rules.


Well crap the bed!!!! Someone better change the Pledge of Allegiance. All these years I thought we lived in a Republic only to find out that we live in a pure democracy.  

Hey thanks for the lesson. The phrase you must be looking for is:

Government of the bowhunters for the bowhunters by the bowhunters. Silly me, I forgot about that part of Ohio's governing laws that gives complete control of the hunting seasons to those who participate in them.

What was I thinking? I can't believe that I forgot about that special crossbow hunter's ballot I get every year asking me to vote on season weapons restrictions, bag limits, and season lengths.:embara: :embara: 

Actually I must admit that I knew all about that and was hoping you didn't. You see just at the close of this year's bow season all the crossbow hunters got together and discussed how we could restrict compound hunters freedoms. (Crap. I'm wrong again. That was P&Y and a bunch of compound organizations trying to restrict the freedoms of crossbow hunters. I just can't get anything right..)

**Turning off sarcasm**

I hate to burst your bubble again but our government does not follow a pure majority rules approach. If that were the case, there is a good chance that none of us would be hunting. We as hunters are in the minority. Since you wanted to have a lesson on American government, try this one:



> The Constitution guarantees to every state a Republican form of government (Art. 4, Sec. 4). No state may join the United States unless it is a Republic. Our Republic is one dedicated to "liberty and justice for all." *Minority individual rights are the priority*. The people have natural rights instead of civil rights. *The people are protected by the Bill of Rights from the majority. *One vote in a jury can stop all of the majority from depriving any one of the people of his rights; this would not be so if the United States were a democracy. (see People's rights vs Citizens' rights)
> 
> In a pure democracy 51 beats 49[%]. In a democracy there is no such thing as a significant minority: there are no minority rights except civil rights (privileges) granted by a condescending majority. Only five of the U.S. Constitution's first ten amendments apply to Citizens of the United States. *Simply stated, a democracy is a dictatorship of the majority*. Socrates was executed by a democracy: though he harmed no one, the majority found him intolerable.


Yet you think:


> FACT the majority rules


My last word on this as it pertains to this thread:

You advance the argument that crossbows might "take over" archery seasons in other states (LA) the way they have in Ohio. The only "take over" you can support is the fact that crossbows outnumber compounds. You can not show any power or authority over compound hunters or negetive impact on them. Your argument does not work. Your "facts" can't support it. It was a nice try at over dramatizing a point, but you failled.


----------



## progers

> Originally Posted by thesource
> I actually believe drawlocks are a good compromise for this whole mess.
> 
> You would still have to hold it, aim it, and shoot it like a bow.
> 
> And no Exomax advantages or scopes - I like it!
> 
> Of course, there would be yahoos who would drawlock at 104# or so......
> 
> 
> What's your opinion on the drawlock instead of a crossbow? Inquiring minds want to know...



I personally don't have a problem with the draw lock system, thesource. It has been said that one problem with the compound in drawing in the presence of a deer is that if you can't fire immediatley, you shake really bad and your arm will give out. That is ture. I have had this happen to me before. I am all for something that can give you a "possible" added advantage that could "possibly" help prevent wounding of an animal. 

The compound users here are steadily talking about the "drawing" part in the presence of game is what is the most difficult part of bowhunting. That statement has been made numerous times. I mean, the compound bow companies make the draw lock. They have never been wrong on anything else before. Why would they fight this? Oh, because that is the final straw that makes it "completely" equal to the crossbow. That is why "they" oppose it. We want everything else to make the compound easier to shoot and we all know that. It's all about improvements to make it easier on the hunter. I don't have a problem with that. You elimanate the mistakes with shooting, you elimanate the mistakes in the shot. That means less missed or wounded game, no matter how you look at it. Hey, that falls back on ethics.

As far as the compromise - the only compromise is to have it when xbows become legal in the state. Having the drawlock instead of the crossbow is not a compromise. Not from the crossbow stand point. What you suggest is either way the crossbow stays out and that is not a compromise. That is still permitting the crossbow. So, now we have the "choice" to use the compound with a draw lock and not a "choice" to use the xbow. We still in the same boat full of holes no matter how you compromise the size of the holes-the boat is still sinking.

That was a great question tho, thesource.


----------



## twogun

*Too close for comfort.*



> These methods—preferred among the unskilled and indolent within the hunting community—deserve to be outlawed for all but the specifically exempted purposes,


Sound familiar? Playing the lazy card.



> As experience in other states demonstrates, these objectionable practices are also unnecessary.


How bout this one? Just pick up a bow sound familiar?



> .....may give the shooter a thrill, but it certainly doesn't qualify as a fair chase.


and another? Too easy.




> there is nothing traditional about......


Appeal to tradition.




> these are all unsporting methods which self-respecting hunters of a prior generation would have rejected outright


Those who fought for our seasons would not approve.



> wildlife committees dominated by rural legislators are overrun with individuals happy to bend to the whims and wishes of special interest hunting groups.


Those damned crossbow manufacturers and their special interest influence.



> And the wishes of the majority often are treated with contempt.


The majority of bow hunters don't want crossbows.



> organizations both within and (ironically) outside have hitched their wagons to the argument


Outsiders need to stay out of it.



> the industry that promotes and sustains hunting has just one motive: profit.


It's the money grubbing game departments who are pushing for crossbows. It's all about money.



> the industry intensively promotes a set of tired myths.


Crossbow spin sound familiar?



> The number of hunters has been steadily declining for decades. According to the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service, there were 15 million licensed hunters in the U.S. in 2000, compared with 15.6 million in 1993, 15.8 million in 1990, and 16.3 million in 1980. This drop has occurred even while the general population has been growing


Where else have I seen the drop in hunter numbers used in an argument. Something about Ohio numbers are down in spite of the crossbow.



> While there are many rules which regulate hunting activities, enforcing the regulations is difficult, and many hunters do not abide by the rules. It has been estimated that twice as many deer are killed illegally as are killed legally.


Crossbows will be a poachers tool.



> little is known about their populations and their ability to withstand hunting pressure





> deer populations may be damaged by hunting pressure


The herd will be decimated.



> We don't understand the full effect of hunting on wildlife behavior or health because wildlife agencies will not conduct the studies necessary to find the answers



We don't have all the information we need.



The number of parallels between the arguments against hunting in general as provided by HSUS and the arguments against crossbows is just a bit disheartening or disgusting.


----------



## thesource

Twogun -

I agree. I find your comparison sickening. To spin HSUS material just to slander bowhunters is devisive and repulsive.

Its obvious you have taken a good part of it out of context to force-fit your political points - yuck.


----------



## cynic

And did you know that the HSUS owns and is buying more land in La.(Feirson, Louisiana : Valley Wild Wildlife Sanctuary, Viola Womack) After 2gun's post it is seeminlg apparent that the anti-hunting groups have activist in all areas (even bowhunting) without knowing it. But little beknown to the bowhunter this is one of the cruelest of all TRADITIONS because of the trauma and suffering to the animal. This debate has accomplished two very real things 1. pit brother against brother (fellow hunters) 2. fuel the fight of the anti-hunter...I am not saying that the opposition is the anti-hunter because they love to hunt their way and don't want it taken away. I'm sure I will hear that nobody is going to take away hunting. Just as it has been said that the xbow would never be legalized but it has in many many states. La bowhunters are no different than those that apposed it in other states. I would venture to say that most of the opposition in La didn't even care about the other states "who gives a dang it don't affect me" Well now the xbow is coming to your state with the help and support of fellow hunters across the nation. After eye opening debates and statistics/studies by there own commission have come to realize that the xbow is not the demonic creature of the wild. The claims of there affects on wildlife and archery hunters were unfounded. The studies of the regions that allow the xbow have proven this. They use the statistics from across the nation just as we use a Car Buying Comparison. Many will not buy a car because of the name Ford Hyundai....etc not because it will or will not be the best for their purpose but what they choose. Our purpose is hunting. Longbow,Recurve,Compound,Crossbow how and what you choose to bowhunt with is and will always be *your* choice.


----------



## cynic

thesource said:


> Twogun -
> 
> I agree. I find your comparison sickening. To spin HSUS material just to slander bowhunters is devisive and repulsive.
> 
> Its obvious you have taken a good part of it out of context to force-fit your political points - yuck.


It was a factual comparison taken from this debate and the HSUS site. Just because you take offense to it says "you need to look at youself, if you to see the similarities".


----------



## thesource

I would like to see some factual evidence that the debate has



cynic said:


> fuel the fight of the anti-hunter.


I hear you proxbow guys say it, but I see nothing to believe that its actually true and not a political ploy to try and squelch any discussion.

If your side is so very worried about adding fuel to the anti-hunters, you should stop....period.


----------



## thesource

cynic said:


> It was a factual comparison taken from this debate and the HSUS site. Just because you take offense to it says "you need to look at youself, if you to see the similarities".


I don't see similarities - I see Twogun twisting and spinning to make those who oppose his point of view look bad.

Like I said before, y'all may end up winning the battle and losing the war. You may get your crossbows - but the rift you are leaving behind will scar the "archery" fraternity for years to come. Talk about divisive!

Maybe THIS is exactly what P&Y meant when they stated that "crossbows are the biggest future threat to bowhunting."


----------



## Jim C

thesource said:


> I would like to see some factual evidence that the debate has
> 
> 
> 
> I hear you proxbow guys say it, but I see nothing to believe that its actually true and not a political ploy to try and squelch any discussion.
> 
> If your side is so very worried about adding fuel to the anti-hunters, you should stop....period.



the fact is source-its people like you and the PBS who call crossbows "unfair" or that they are used by the "lazy"

those sort of compounders are lapped up by the anti hunting activists. They use the words of the PBS and Pope and Young's surrogate anti xbow conspiracy to brand a large segment of the bowhunting fraternity "lazy" "shortcutters" and all the other stuff that the psychologically questionable excluders spew in order to build up their own egos.

I haven't seen much coming from our side that compares


----------



## cynic

thesource said:


> I would like to see some factual evidence that the debate has
> 
> 
> 
> I hear you proxbow guys say it, but I see nothing to believe that its actually true and not a political ploy to try and squelch any discussion.
> 
> If your side is so very worried about adding fuel to the anti-hunters, you should stop....period.


Get a grip We are not griping about bowhunting you are. So if you have nothing to add other than arguement. plz leave. Argueing is not debating.


----------



## thesource

Jim

I am not saying that "your side" is providing statements that the anti-hunters can use, I am saying that it is "your sides" forcing of crossbows into bowseason that causes the uproar. If you would stop, it would stop.

Obviously, you feel it important enough that you are willing to continue with your efforts, uproar be damned.

Obviously, those opposed to crossbows feel it is important enough to resist to continue with their efforts, uproar be damned.

The difference is that your side whimpers about it and uses the nuclear option of insults - comparing bowhunters to antihunters.


----------



## cynic

thesource said:


> Maybe THIS is exactly what P&Y meant when they stated that "crossbows are the biggest future threat to bowhunting."


Who made P&Y a divine entity...Please refrain to making comments about them being so great as they make ME sick with the narrow minded point of view. Those of you that wish to follow that demeaning group are welcome to. Why couldn't you do this in the flame thread so I could really say what's on my mind..


----------



## thesource

Please.

I made no opinion on P&Y, just pointed out that there statement had validity. Crossbow legalization is already hurting bowhunting with its divisiveness.

Besides - P&Y is a leading entity when it comes to bowhunting, no arguing that....I don't know about divine, though.


----------



## Jim C

cynic said:


> Who made P&Y a divine entity...Please refrain to making comments about them being so great as they make ME sick with the narrow minded point of view. Those of you that wish to follow that demeaning group are welcome to. Why couldn't you do this in the flame thread so I could really say what's on my mind..



P&Y are dinosaurs who have never been able to articulate how the country is better off if "bowhunting" is limited to Mr Allen's "mechanically assisted arrow launching device" versus Mr Horton's crossbow or Mr Troubridge's excalibur

other than protecting the egos of psychologically infirm individuals, I have yet to hear a sound or even plausible argument as to why the country is better off making bowhunters use one type of mechanical bow vs another

maybe source can explain but in 1500 posts I haven't seen an answer


----------



## cynic

thesource said:


> Jim
> 
> I am not saying that "your side" is providing statements that the anti-hunters can use, I am saying that it is "your sides" forcing of crossbows into bowseason that causes the uproar. If you would stop, it would stop.
> 
> Obviously, you feel it important enough that you are willing to continue with your efforts, uproar be damned.
> 
> Obviously, those opposed to crossbows feel it is important enough to resist to continue with their efforts, uproar be damned.
> 
> The difference is that your side whimpers about it and uses the nuclear option of insults - comparing bowhunters to antihunters.


If your side would open your mind and stop fighting and start coming up with alternative/compromise there would be no arguement or uproar. You feel if we just lay down roll over and play dead that this will end and everybody will be happy..Wrong answer,,,why is your side roaring. Not real sure that's okay most followers don't know what or who they're following anyway they just go with the flow.


----------



## Jim C

thesource said:


> Please.
> 
> I made no opinion on P&Y, just pointed out that there statement had validity. Crossbow legalization is already hurting bowhunting with its divisiveness.
> 
> Besides - P&Y is a leading entity when it comes to bowhunting, no arguing that....I don't know about divine, though.



crossbow archers don't hurt your side-its your side that howls and moans when crossbows are legalized. nothing is hurt other than the egos of the antis source.

you have never given us one shred of evidence how anything is objectively hurt by legalizing crossbows. since you ignore that question despite a single mindedness posting on this subject really answers my question

again-using historical analogies, the antis sound alot like the Jim Crow advocates who claimed that giving equal rights to blacks was causing divisions.

sorry the divisions have already been created by the bigotry and ending that division isn't causing more division-all we have is the caterwauling of the selfish who no longer can exclude others based on myth, lies and bigotry


----------



## thesource

cynic said:


> If your side would open your mind and stop fighting and start coming up with alternative/compromise there would be no arguement or uproar. You feel if we just lay down roll over and play dead that this will end and everybody will be happy..Wrong answer,,,why is your side roaring. Not real sure that's okay most followers don't know what or who they're following anyway they just go with the flow.


That's funny right there.

I can say EXACTLY the same thing - You feel if we just lay down roll over and play dead that this will end and everybody will be happy.

The problem with compromise is apparent even in this thread. For every person on both sides that is willing to compromise, there is another person (on both sides) who refuses to compromise.

And negotiating for crossbows in their own season or for animals other than deer is fine on the surface, but not meaningful if it is a thinly veiled foot in the door - a position from which to further attack bowhunting in the future (which more than 1 from your side has already intimated.)

I firmly believe that meaningful compromise positions are available, I just do not see many who truly want to reach for them.


----------



## thesource

Jim C said:


> you have never given us one shred of evidence how anything is objectively hurt by legalizing crossbows.



Bowhunting is hurt.

Bowhunting has already been hurt by this sillliness, with the evidence staring you right in the face.

When people on your side take an Antihunting organization's words out of context and then spin to advance crossbow hunter's agendas at the expense of Bowhunters, it is ABSOLUTELY CLEAR that we are not brothers or friends. Crossbow advocates are perfectly willing to tear down bowhunting to advance crossbow hunting.


----------



## cynic

thesource said:


> Please.
> 
> I made no opinion on P&Y, just pointed out that there statement had validity. Crossbow legalization is already hurting bowhunting with its divisiveness.
> 
> Besides - P&Y is a leading entity when it comes to bowhunting, no arguing that....I don't know about divine, though.


P&Y is not a leading entity those of you that wish to follow an organization. They a leader of followers and according to there own statesments without change we will lose revenues and participants . Without revenue there organiztion would die without participants the revenues would die. So what they prey on is participants making the rules of the game as they go to keep participants and what MONEY. Money is there motivation (revenues) Participants, more participants (more revenues) They don't care about the bowhunter. They care about there way of life, finacially speaking. Bowhunting is just how they have provided for there way of life IE..a JOB. Please don't tell me how great they are...I see there organiztion for what it is..


----------



## cynic

thesource said:


> Bowhunting is hurt.
> 
> Bowhunting has already been hurt by this sillliness, with the evidence staring you right in the face.
> 
> When people on your side take an Antihunting organization's words out of context and then spin to advance crossbow hunter's agendas at the expense of Bowhunters, it is ABSOLUTELY CLEAR that we are not brothers or friends. Crossbow advocates are perfectly willing to tear down bowhunting to advance crossbow hunting.


And bowhunters clearly through there unwillingness to accept that a xbow is a bow and should be allowed drew the dividing line...


----------



## Jim C

thesource said:


> Bowhunting is hurt.
> 
> Bowhunting has already been hurt by this sillliness, with the evidence staring you right in the face.
> 
> When people on your side take an Antihunting organization's words out of context and then spin to advance crossbow hunter's agendas at the expense of Bowhunters, it is ABSOLUTELY CLEAR that we are not brothers or friends. Crossbow advocates are perfectly willing to tear down bowhunting to advance crossbow hunting.



you are lying again-its your side that insults and lies about xbow archers-you claim they are lazy, you claim their trophies are not as valuable or not worthy of the same merit as your trophies and you claim those who merely wanted to be treated equally are causing divisions because the selfish and the ego-issue separatists are upset

crossbow hunting is bowhunting and your claim that it isn't is just a pigheaded lie


----------



## thesource

Just because crossbow hunters want crossbows to be treated equally does not mean that crossbows are equal.


----------



## Jim C

thesource said:


> Just because crossbow hunters want crossbows to be treated equally does not mean that crossbows are equal.


no source-hunters are equal and when they use equivalent tackle they should be treated equally. I realize you think you are better than a crossbow archer and your trophy counts more-because we have documented you saying that-but that merely demonstrates what sort of mentality people on my side have to deal with

you have never-in your 1500 posts, ever told us how bowhunting is OBJECTIVELY hurt by equal treatment-rather you spew platitudes that xbows aren't bows

your studied avoidance of providing a real answer only proves that its psychological issues that cause the hatred, not some objectively based fear of harm


----------



## thesource

Jim C said:


> I realize you think you are better than a crossbow archer and your trophy counts more-because we have documented you saying that-but that merely demonstrates what sort of mentality people on my side have to deal with


This is a flat out lie. Why do you keep making stuff like this up, and then repeat it and repeat it and repeat it? How does this do anything except make you look desperate and foolish?

Clearly I have provided enough ammunition for you to find legitimate issue with many statements I may have made.

But this statement is your interpretation of something I said that didn't even include the word trophy....pathetic.

Why do you insist on making this personal whenever we get to the heart of the matter - bow vs crossbow equality?


----------



## thesource

Jim C said:


> no source-hunters are equal and when they use equivalent tackle they should be treated equally.


First it was equal - now its equivalent. Soon we will say they are practically the same and then we'll hit similar.

Crossbows are different than bows - bows are different than crossbows.

Are they different enough to warrant their own season? I say yes.

Cynic, if you want a compromise, I suggest you push for this one - a separate crossbow season. It takes those who are standing on principle (like me) out of the arguement, and leaves no real reason for opposition except for future encroachment.


----------



## Jim C

thesource said:


> This is a flat out lie. Why do you keep making stuff like this up, and then repeat it and repeat it and repeat it? How does this do anything except make you look desperate and foolish?
> 
> Clearly I have provided enough ammunition for you to find legitimate issue with many statements I may have made.
> 
> But this statement is your interpretation of something I said that didn't even include the word trophy....pathetic.
> 
> Why do you insist on making this personal whenever we get to the heart of the matter - bow vs crossbow equality?


oh cut the crap source-we all saw you say that Ohio is full of lazy hunters who use crossbows and that a crossbow trophy is only worth 3/4 of a "bow trophy"

that you can't answer my straightforward question is all the ammo I need


----------



## Jim C

thesource said:


> First it was equal - now its equivalent. Soon we will say they are practically the same and then we'll hit similar.
> 
> Crossbows are different than bows - bows are different than crossbows.
> 
> Are they different enough to warrant their own season? I say yes.
> 
> Cynic, if you want a compromise, I suggest you push for this one - a separate crossbow season. It takes those who are standing on principle (like me) out of the arguement, and leaves no real reason for opposition except for future encroachment.



the problem is that if crossbows are to be treated differently than compounds then clearly trad bows have to be treated differently as well

me, I rather have a 4 month season where I can choose when to hunt rather than be forced into probably a bad month to hunt in-compound hunters think they ought to get the prime time

you have yet to make a sound argument as to why apartheid should be practiced


----------



## twogun

thesource said:


> Twogun -
> 
> I agree. I find your comparison sickening. To spin HSUS material just to slander bowhunters is devisive and repulsive.
> 
> Its obvious you have taken a good part of it out of context to force-fit your political points - yuck.


Nice refutation.  

I'm not slandering bowhunters. I'm pointing out that SOME (you) behave like anti-hunters and employ some of their tactics. If you have employed the tactics I mentioned, then the shoe fits, and the post was directed at you.

You try very hard in many of your posts to create the false impression that bowhunters in general are being "slandered". That's not true, and you know it. THe fact is that there are many compound hunters who don't give a damn if crossbows use is allowed. They will continue to do their thing all the while supporting their fellow hunters. There will be many who switch completely and many who will use both types of bows.


----------



## twogun

thesource said:


> Bowhunting is hurt.
> 
> Bowhunting has already been hurt by this sillliness, with the evidence staring you right in the face.
> 
> When people on your side take an Antihunting organization's words out of context and then spin to advance crossbow hunter's agendas at the expense of Bowhunters, it is ABSOLUTELY CLEAR that we are not brothers or friends. Crossbow advocates are perfectly willing to tear down bowhunting to advance crossbow hunting.



Gosh, now I'm really disappointed. I thought all this while all those guys who have been calling crossbow hunters lazy slobs, poachers, wild eyed slaughterers of game, opportunists, corrupters, poluters, and cheaters *AND* have actively worked to take away my hunting freedoms were my pals, buddies, friends, and brothers. I am shocked.   

Your hypocricy truely knows no bounds.


----------



## thesource

Jim C said:


> oh cut the crap source-we all saw you say that Ohio is full of lazy hunters who use crossbows


I did say something close to that - "120,000 hunters too lazy to use a real bow", if I rember correctly.

I was wrong for saying that. With crossbows already legal, any hunter who wants to hunt in bow season has the choice to hunt with a bow or crossbow.

What I should have said that where crossbows are not legal, hunters who want to hunt in bow season but are too lazy to hunt with a bow now get an easy way out that they really don't deserve.

That better?




Jim C said:


> and that a crossbow trophy is only worth 3/4 of a "bow trophy"


I did not say this....you continue to tell untruths and misrepresentations.

If anyone cares, I laid out a scenario process step by process step involving shooting a deer with a bow and crossbow that detailed about 75% of the work required with a bow is needed for a crossbow.

You, in your paranoid and delusional state, have inferred that to mean a trophy is worth 75% as much. I never said it.

Pathetic.


----------



## progers

thesource said:


> First it was equal - now its equivalent. Soon we will say they are practically the same and then we'll hit similar.
> 
> Crossbows are different than bows - bows are different than crossbows.
> 
> Are they different enough to warrant their own season? I say yes.
> 
> Cynic, if you want a compromise, I suggest you push for this one - a separate crossbow season. It takes those who are standing on principle (like me) out of the arguement, and leaves no real reason for opposition except for future encroachment.


Thesource, would you agree that compounds are different that longbows and recurves?

EXAMPLE: a 30 06 semi automatic is different that a 30 06 single shot but hey, they both shoot the same projectiles.

EXAMPLE: chocalate ice cream is different than vinilla ice cream but they are both ice cream and can be eaten with a spoon.

EXAMPLE: a man is different from a woman but, they are both equal as they are human beings.

EXAMPLE: a black man is different than a white man but they are both equal as the are also humans.

FACT: a crossbow is different than a compound but, they are both equal as they are both bows and they shoot arrows. They are both archery equipment.



It's the people like you who try to prey on the minute differences and catagorize things to make one seem lesser than the other just to make what your preference is look better. That means one thing, prejudice.


As I have said til I'm blue in the face thesorce, this is NOT a push to get crossbows into archery season. This is a push to get crossbows in to any and all seasons for any and all game that will be regulated by the State.

Even if we signed our names on the dotted line stating that we are trying to get them in a seperate season, it will not matter as you will just start screaming "foothold" and "stepping stone".


I guess that you would fight to keep the sun from rising because it might get hot one day? That is the mentality that you have. Just let the sun rise and we can decide what we want to wear that day. It's all about "choices". 


Even if crossbows are allowed in archery season/early bow season, how is that going to cause the people who choose to use a compound or recurve to not be able to hunt with one anymore? 

Please explain that to me.


----------



## cynic

All the comparison has made me ill...Is a pickle a cucumber? Wrong a pickle is not. Pickle is only the process but we have adopted it as the name. Pickled cucumber, pickle ocre. While both are not a pickle they are both pickled. If we change the name of the of all bow and arrow shooting devices to either straight or mechanical would that make it better...Then we can have straight bow season and mechanical bow season. I don't know why we even try to get him to understand comparisons. I don't think he really know why he continues other than his lame posts serve to incite a response and he is lonely. Dougk, Jim be his friend, he needs and wants attention even if it is negative. Rather than critize, guide him and nuture him  The more we argue pointlessly the closer we get to "locked"..That is what they/he are really after......Let him babble we have all read his incessent whining and that it is all someone elses fault. Please guys let him go. If you don't respond, he will be the only one that looks bad....


----------



## progers

cynic said:


> All the comparison has made me ill...Is a pickle a cucumber? Wrong a pickle is not. Pickle is only the process but we have adopted it as the name. Pickled cucumber, pickle ocre. While both are not a pickle they are both pickled. If we change the name of the of all bow and arrow shooting devices to either straight or mechanical would that make it better...Then we can have straight bow season and mechanical bow season. I don't know why we even try to get him to understand comparisons. I don't think he really know why he continues other than his lame posts serve to incite a response and he is lonely. Dougk, Jim be his friend, he needs and wants attention even if it is negative. Rather than critize, guide him and nuture him  The more we argue pointlessly the closer we get to "locked"..That is what they/he are really after......Let him babble we have all read his incessent whining and that it is all someone elses fault. Please guys let him go. If you don't respond, he will be the only one that looks bad....



I can respect that.

I agree, "mechanical" bowseason and "stick and string" bow season.


----------



## JDMiller

thesource said:


> First it was equal - now its equivalent. Soon we will say they are practically the same and then we'll hit similar.
> 
> Crossbows are different than bows - bows are different than crossbows.
> 
> Are they different enough to warrant their own season? I say yes.
> 
> Cynic, if you want a compromise, I suggest you push for this one - a separate crossbow season. It takes those who are standing on principle (like me) out of the arguement, and leaves no real reason for opposition except for future encroachment.



Crossbows and their stature as archery equipment is basically the same argument that was around when compounds were unacceptable by the recurve & stickbow guys. In my opinion....crossbows are a form of archery equipment but just to the same extreme that compounds were viewed. Your stament waranting a seperate season would have validity if compounds and traditional equipment had been seperated way back then. 

As far as compromises.....I for one have never been against them if all parties involved are willing to come into mediation with resolve. Unfortunately the "nothing" approach by the bowhunting groups....which in my opinion has been proven by several states expanding crossbow use....will bite them every single time. In Kentucky....for example and I've been corrected on for what its worth... the first compromise was a Nov.1 start date that was acceptable by the KDF&WR and the crossbow supporters. The bowhunting groups rejected this and counter-offered with a Nov. 13 start date...which by the way was opening day of modern firearms....was rejected by KDF&WR and the crossbow supporters. 13 days was what was in question...and I will add probably 13 days of the best part of the season....pre-rut & rut usually falls in this time period and its not uncommon for modern gun to open on the peak chase phase of the rut. There was no reason a Nov. 1 could not be accepted ....it just got down to they wanted this period strictly to themselves....again not wanting to share the woods. 

To disect this even further.....a Nov. 1 date would have given a full month without any other weapons except conventional archery methods. The next month would have been somewhat impeded by 9 days of other methods...a 5 day fall shotgun turkey....2 day early youth firearm & 2 day early muzzleloader. Still there would have been 22 days of bow only hunting in this second month. I might add that everyone needs to realize our archery season is 4 1/2 months long and you can hunt with bow or crossbow during these firearm deer opportunities but must abide by the hunter orange requirements.

That being said ....this compromise allowed to be reviewed in two years and if no impact or effects realized then crossbow use COULD be expanded further. In my opinion......if all the gloom or doom of crossbows that the opposition has said were to occur or even show a trend the crossbow season could stay where it is at or possibly be shortened. Was this unacceptable ???? I think so and even another crossbow compromise was offered in November and rejected. This one offered a Oct. 1 start ....left turkeys off limits to crossbow users, reuired crossbow users to buy a user license and would fund a impact study that in two years could have been reviewed and crossbow season could be adjusted either way. So.......now ..its not finalized but has jumped through some major approvals by being unopposed.....and all indications are pointing for crossbows to be allowed throughout the entire archery season. The opposition sure one a battle there...LOL.

Honestly I like seeing crossbows used throughout but its a lesson in this that the opposition could learn. Disembark on the "nothing " approach...and realize that regardless of topics here that I have seen debated over and over have no merit.....educate yourself about crossbows and keep resolve in the equation. There is not really any reason bowhunters can not share all or part of the season with expanded crossbows opportunities ....if you keep the "no way....no how...not in my season" you will lose out in more ways than one.


----------



## progers

twogun said:


> Free Range,
> 
> 
> 
> Well crap the bed!!!! Someone better change the Pledge of Allegiance. All these years I thought we lived in a Republic only to find out that we live in a pure democracy.
> 
> Hey thanks for the lesson. The phrase you must be looking for is:
> 
> Government of the bowhunters for the bowhunters by the bowhunters. Silly me, I forgot about that part of Ohio's governing laws that gives complete control of the hunting seasons to those who participate in them.
> 
> What was I thinking? I can't believe that I forgot about that special crossbow hunter's ballot I get every year asking me to vote on season weapons restrictions, bag limits, and season lengths.:embara: :embara:
> 
> Actually I must admit that I knew all about that and was hoping you didn't. You see just at the close of this year's bow season all the crossbow hunters got together and discussed how we could restrict compound hunters freedoms. (Crap. I'm wrong again. That was P&Y and a bunch of compound organizations trying to restrict the freedoms of crossbow hunters. I just can't get anything right..)
> 
> **Turning off sarcasm**
> 
> I hate to burst your bubble again but our government does not follow a pure majority rules approach. If that were the case, there is a good chance that none of us would be hunting. We as hunters are in the minority. Since you wanted to have a lesson on American government, try this one:
> 
> 
> 
> Yet you think:
> 
> My last word on this as it pertains to this thread:
> 
> You advance the argument that crossbows might "take over" archery seasons in other states (LA) the way they have in Ohio. The only "take over" you can support is the fact that crossbows outnumber compounds. You can not show any power or authority over compound hunters or negetive impact on them. Your argument does not work. Your "facts" can't support it. It was a nice try at over dramatizing a point, but you failled.






TeoGun, does this statement that the Youth Director of BSBA, Pistol Young, does this fall under the "minority" clause that you have explained to us?




> Author Topic: Notice !!!!!!!!!!!!!!! (Read 19 times)
> Pistol Young
> Moderator
> 
> member is online
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Deer Hunt-A-Holic !!!!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Joined: Jan 2005
> Gender: Male
> Posts: 354
> Location: Saint Landry, La.
> Notice !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
> « Thread Started on Today at 12:11pm »
> 
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> It is common knowledge that the majority of the members of this forum are against the use of crossbows by non-disabled or non-handicapped hunters, as well as hunters younger than 60 years old.
> 
> We as moderators of this site would appreciate if this topic wouldn't be discussed here. We have stopped voicing our opinions on the other sites due to the ongoing arguements do nothing in my opinion but broaden the gap. We would appreciate if all concerned would show the same courtesy at this site.
> It's like certain other topics ( dogs, baiting, etc ) that leads to the arguing and bickering, that up until recently this site was void of.
> 
> Thanks, Pistol Young
> 
> 
> Link to Post - Back to Top Logged
> 
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Broadheads and bullets, " The Tools Of The Trade "
> Mathews, Vital Bow Gear Sights, Muzzy, Carbon Express, Primos, API, CVA, Winchester, Mossy Oak





Do I have to shut up because I am considered a minority to them?

Or, should they just call me Socrates? :wink:


----------



## progers

JDMiller, 

From what compromises I have heard, especially as far as LA goes and the opposition here is, if I would scratch there back, they would slap me in my face.

That about sums up the compromise, wouldn't you agree?!?


----------



## Jim C

thesource said:


> Bowhunting is hurt.
> 
> Bowhunting has already been hurt by this sillliness, with the evidence staring you right in the face.
> 
> When people on your side take an Antihunting organization's words out of context and then spin to advance crossbow hunter's agendas at the expense of Bowhunters, it is ABSOLUTELY CLEAR that we are not brothers or friends. Crossbow advocates are perfectly willing to tear down bowhunting to advance crossbow hunting.



i will take this nonsense as further proof you cannot post one shred of evidence that bowhunting is hurt by treating crossbows the same as compound bows. the only thing we seek to tear down are the walls of bigotry and lies your side has erected

your position of saying the walls need to remain is idiotic and pathologically driven

now post an objective detriment xbows cause-that it hurts your sensibilities means nothing to me


----------



## thesource

JDMiller said:


> In my opinion....crossbows are a form of archery equipment but just to the same extreme that compounds were viewed. .



That's right .... its your opinion.

Mine is that crossbows are significantly different than compounds...and its shared by 70% of the members at AT who voted in the last poll in the bowhunting forum that crossbows should not even be considered archery.

I'm all about compromise - I think crossbows should be awarded their own season. Its the hard headed extremists on both sides that muck up the water.


----------



## Jim C

thesource said:


> That's right .... its your opinion.
> 
> Mine is that crossbows are significantly different than compounds...and its shared by 70% of the members at AT who voted in the last poll in the bowhunting forum that crossbows should not even be considered archery.
> 
> I'm all about compromise - I think crossbows should be awarded their own season. Its the hard headed extremists on both sides that muck up the water.


and can you give us a rational and succinct non circular answer as to why we should practice archery apartheid. 70% of the people on here was what-80 people? BFD


----------



## thesource

progers said:


> FACT: a crossbow is different than a compound but, they are both equal as they are both bows and they shoot arrows. They are both archery equipment.


You guys are incredible.

Here's a little tip for you, free of charge:

Just because you put the word FACT: in front of a statement does not, actually, mean that it becomes one. You have done that repeatedly in this charade of "facts", and I see you are still at it.

When you say they are both "bows" - you assume facts not in evidence. You (of course) will pull out some dictionary for the meaning. I (of course) will reference the legal definition of a bow in 40+ states that prove a crossbow is not a bow.

Just because they both shoot arrows is similarly weak. I can shoot a bullet from a rifle or a MZ - but not from both if its black powder season. For that matter, I could shoot a bullet from a slingshot, or an arrow from a gun - that doesn't make a slingshot a rifle or a gun a bow.


----------



## thesource

Jim C said:


> and can you give us a rational and succinct non circular answer as to why we should practice archery apartheid. 70% of the people on here was what-80 people? BFD


Actually it was hundreds of members.

When you form a leading question, I won't answer. The "practice apartheid" question would be objected and sustained, now wouldn't it?

Don't be dense. We don't allow non-bows into bowseason - simple.


----------



## thesource

progers said:


> JDMiller,
> 
> From what compromises I have heard, especially as far as LA goes and the opposition here is, if I would scratch there back, they would slap me in my face.
> 
> That about sums up the compromise, wouldn't you agree?!?



See - you are making it ALL or NOTHING, and dividing hunters by doing so. while crying "victim!" the whole time.


----------



## Jim C

thesource said:


> You guys are incredible.
> 
> Here's a little tip for you, free of charge:
> 
> Just because you put the word FACT: in front of a statement does not, actually, mean that it becomes one. You have done that repeatedly in this charade of "facts", and I see you are still at it.
> 
> When you say they are both "bows" - you assume facts not in evidence. You (of course) will pull out some dictionary for the meaning. I (of course) will reference the legal definition of a bow in 40+ states that prove a crossbow is not a bow.
> 
> Just because they both shoot arrows is similarly weak. I can shoot a bullet from a rifle or a MZ - but not from both if its black powder season. For that matter, I could shoot a bullet from a slingshot, or an arrow from a gun - that doesn't make a slingshot a rifle or a gun a bow.


more stupidity from the source. Its a bow, I don't care what bigoted anti hunting snobs call bows-its a bow and every group that doesn't try to exclude people from archery or archery season know its a bow.

you have neither the standing nor the expertise to tell me what a bow is

other than your lame semantic argument source can you actually fabricate a sensible argument as to why xbows should be treated differently? saying they aren't bows doesn't cut it with those of us who have clearly superior credentials in archery than you do


----------



## Jim C

thesource said:


> Actually it was hundreds of members.
> 
> When you form a leading question, I won't answer. The "practice apartheid" question would be objected and sustained, now wouldn't it?
> 
> Don't be dense. We don't allow non-bows into bowseason - simple.



but only morons claim crossbows aren't bows

assume a crossbow is a bow-the same assumption that the NAA, the NFAA, the IBO and the ATA do-come up with a convincing argument that doesn't rely on pigheaded claims or idiotic head in the sand ostrich actions


----------



## doctariAFC

Division of hunters on this issue is being caused by silly personal opinions, coupled with fear of the "unknown". 

Prior to this thread spiralling back to the abyss that is the same old-same old argument (rather than debate), a myriad of factual information that clearly and without refute prove the fear-based arguments which have been used, ad nauseum when ANY change is considered regarding hunting, are completely and utterly shot down in flames. 

This is the amazing dynamic perpetuated through the continual bantering over whose opinion is more correct. This is even illustrated in the compromise approach. My personal gripe regarding this whole subject is that we have very few people who have an ability to set aside the opinionated baloney and simply read the information that is compiled and presented by the authorities governing hunting in each state allowing crossbows, and we will clearly then have productive discussions to address the largr issues at hand. It saddens the majority of hunters who hunt for the thrill, challenge,healthy living benefits, conservation importance and passing along theis most treasured and vitally important role we have in ecology come into a discussion to find organizations behaving in the manner in which they do, and the indoctrination of the part, rather than the whole, acts to both embarrass and subvert many of the good efforts these organizations engage in.


----------



## cynic

See guys you keep giving him attention and look what he does..Has anyone ever seen this guy in person? You should be more understanding of his personal under achievements. He thinks that by jumping on the opposition wagon he will have a free ride. He has no real reason to supply any facts or contribute worthwhile, meaningful posts none of the others did.


----------



## progers

thesource said:


> See - you are making it ALL or NOTHING, and dividing hunters by doing so. while crying "victim!" the whole time.



I am making it ALL or NOTHING?

Lets look at your statement from yesterday, Mister ALL or NOTHING Dude!



> Yesterday, 01:04 PM
> thesource
> Registered User Join Date: May 2005
> Location: Upstate NY
> Posts: 1,407
> 
> I actually believe drawlocks are a good compromise for this whole mess.
> 
> You would still have to hold it, aim it, and shoot it like a bow.
> 
> And no Exomax advantages or scopes - I like it!
> 
> Of course, there would be yahoos who would drawlock at 104# or so......
> 
> 
> What's your opinion on the drawlock *instead* of a crossbow? Inquiring minds want to know...



You stated "the drawlock *instead* of a crossbow"

INSTEAD? That means ALL or NOTHING!

How is this a "compromise"?

I replied, "HAVE BOTH"

hence, the SLAP in the face.

Define "INSTEAD" please....Inquiring minds DO want to know...


----------



## cynic

Instead = in place of. We are not looking to get a drawlock in place of
a crossbow.


----------



## progers

*Tribute to a GREAT MAN...*

*Fred Bear - The Legend*

Fred Bear brought *bowhunting to national exposure and participation.* Rarely has one man meant so much to the development of an industry. Fred Bear passed away almost 15 years ago, however his legacy in the archery industry will not be forgotten.

Then, at the height of the Great Depression in 1933, Bear and another acquaintance named Charles Piper pooled $600 and started Bear Products Company. They specialized in silkscreen advertising banners and fliers for Chrysler automobile dealers. However, in one corner of the shop, Bear handcrafted archery equipment for a growing circle of friends who appreciated the craftsmanship his patternmaker's training brought to the art of the bowyer. In just six years, Bear's archery business expanded to the point it could support him. The two men then dissolved the joint partnership and Bear launched Bear Archery Company.


*To make a living building bows,* Bear first had to expand the market for his products. He was instrumental in promoting a bowhunting season in Michigan (1936). He also tackled target archery, winning Michigan's state championship in 1934, 1937 and 1939. In those days, Bear traveled the sports show circuit, demonstrating his instinctive shooting skills at exhibitions in major urban areas.


*Bear moved his archery plant* to Grayling, MI, in 1947. For two decades, Bear traveled on bowhunting and filmmaking expeditions throughout the world. One of his African trips included radio and television personality Arthur Godfrey. During this trip, Bear downed a bull elephant and Godfrey recounted the story on his international radio broadcast. This, coupled with an article in Life Magazine, significantly enhanced Bear's international fame.

*Bear remained active in designing products and promoting the sport he loved* until his death in 1988 at 86 years of age. *Truly an icon in archery, Fred Bear will forever be remembered in the archery industry and in the hearts and souls of many people for generations to come.*


Fred Bear Teams with the Strongest Brands in Archery

*Fred Bear quality and craftsmanship can be found in every Fred Bear bow*, as well as each bow bearing the Realtree®, Buckmasters® or Mossy Oak® brand logo. *Each bow meets the performance standards required to be included under the Fred Bear brand.* Combined with a complete commitment to delivering the finest quality bows made in America, Fred Bear bows also share mutual design standards for the Realtree, Buckmasters and Mossy Oak brands too. Exceptional bows for exceptional hunters, Fred Bear - Live The Great Outdoors.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

*Fred Bear is undoubtably the greatest innovator in the history of archery.*


Now, please click on the link below and tell me what you see.......

http://www.fredbearoutdoors.com/products/index.tpl



I rest my case!


----------



## thesource

progers said:


> Now, please click on the link below and tell me what you see.......
> I rest my case!


LOL

Here's what it says under crossbows:

_Built “Bear Tough,” each F-Series crossbow features a unique two-piece molded stock design typically found only on high-end rifles and shotguns _

I love it.


----------



## cynic

Douglas LeJeune
Area Advisor


Joined: 08 May 2005
Posts: 80
Location: Sulphur La
Posted: Fri Feb 10, 2006 11:33 pm Post subject: 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Susan, if there are archery stores in the area, they may teach someone how to shot.its not hard to learn just need to be fitted with a bow.far as hunting over there you can contact the wildlife and fisheries to see about wma or public land to hunt on. 

_____________________________>>>>>>>>>>>>>>____________________
Ain't this just special from such an established site BSBA. Even they think it's not hard but refuse to admit it


----------



## thesource

Since its so easy, EVERYONE should be able to use a compound.

So what's all the fuss, gus?


----------



## cynic

thesource said:


> LOL
> 
> Here's what it says under crossbows:
> 
> _Built “Bear Tough,” each F-Series crossbow features a unique two-piece molded stock design typically found only on high-end rifles and shotguns _
> 
> I love it.


And if you replace the side panel on a compound grip you get what.. That's right a compound bow..It has already been stated that it is held like a gun....Stock/grip/handle/forgrip so on and on...did you happen to notice that thing that was sitting on top of the stock. Damn looks just like a compound bow can you believe that. You missed the most important part..Only saw what you thought that would make for a great arguement


----------



## thesource

progers said:


> I am making it ALL or NOTHING?
> 
> Lets look at your statement from yesterday, Mister ALL or NOTHING Dude!



I have repeatedly stated I am in favor of a Crossbow season for deer hunting, and in addition have no issues with crossbow use anytime a gun can be used.

My only beef is crossbow in bow season (since I do not agree that it is).

Tell me again who is opposed to compromise?


----------



## thesource

cynic said:


> And if you replace the side panel on a compound grip you get what.. That's right a compound bow..


????



cynic said:


> It has already been stated that it is held like a gun....Stock/grip/handle/forgrip so on and on...


Do you mean a crossbow? or are you saying a compound is held like a gun?




cynic said:


> did you happen to notice that thing that was sitting on top of the stock. Damn looks just like a compound bow can you believe that.


Excellent point - as soon as you pull it off that stock, hold it like a bow, DRAW it, and shoot something..... I will listen to your line of reasoning.

Remember, Hernia surgery is quite expensive...lol


----------



## cynic

thesource said:


> Since its so easy, EVERYONE should be able to use a compound.
> 
> So what's all the fuss, gus?


Pro bow says that the xbow is the easy way out. Ours is that it gives us a choice. Pro bow talks about the time necessary to become proficient. Now they tell people that it's not hard..Which way are we going now? We have never said we couldn't use a bow. We want a choice as to which bow we use...This is about the choice to use a xbow not that whether we can or can't shoot a compound..Step away from the fumes...


----------



## cynic

thesource said:


> ????
> 
> 
> 
> Do you mean a crossbow? or are you saying a compound is held like a gun?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Excellent point - as soon as you pull it off that stock, hold it like a bow, DRAW it, and shoot something..... I will listen to your line of reasoning.
> 
> Remember, Hernia surgery is quite expensive...lol


So if I go take the bow off my xbow and shoot something you will shut up? Does anyone see whats coming??


----------



## progers

thesource said:


> I have repeatedly stated I am in favor of a Crossbow season for deer hunting, and in addition have no issues with crossbow use anytime a gun can be used.
> 
> My only beef is crossbow in bow season (since I do not agree that it is).
> 
> Tell me again who is opposed to compromise?



Then why do you argue? I have stated many times that we are pushing to make it legal here in LA to hunt *ANY* and *ALL* game under regulated seasons provided by the State of Louisiana.

I specifacly stated that this is *NOT A PUSH TO PUT XBOWS IN ARCHERY SEASON.*

So, with that being said, will YOU sign the online petition to support it since it says on the petition that it is *NOT A PUSH TO PUT XBOWS IN ARCHERY SEASON.*


To answer your question about *who is opposed to compromise?* In the state of Louisiana, that would be the BSBA. 

thesource, you are willing to compromise and I applaud you for your statement. You now side with what we are standing for. Welcome to the club, Bro!

So, since you have repeatedly stated "I am in favor of a Crossbow season for deer hunting, and in addition have no issues with crossbow use anytime a gun can be used", will you sign the petition?

This is EXACTLY what the petitions states. Please go and read it and decide for yourself.

Thank you for your support



http://www.petitiononline.com/boaxbowp/petition.html


----------



## thesource

So I'll ask the question...

If everyone can use a compound (because you say its so easy), why create all this turmoil and division to force the stringgun where it doesn't belong?

If keeping the brotherhood of hunting is SO important to you guys - why make all this fuss and expose us to the antihunters when you are already perfectly capable of hunting during the season you seek?


----------



## thesource

cynic said:


> So if I go take the bow off my xbow and shoot something you will shut up? Does anyone see whats coming??



I want to see you shoot an Exomax by hand!

Besides, I said I'd listen to your reasoning. I didn't say I would shut up...LOL


----------



## thesource

progers said:


> You now side with what we are standing for. Welcome to the club, Bro!


I have ALWAYS stood for a crossbow season. I want it to be separate from Bow Season, but I think all states should have a crossbow season.

Sign your petition? Not so fast. I have also stood for state's sportsmen. I live in NY, I hunt in NY and PA, I have absolutely no business imposing my will (to any degree) on the sportsmen of LA.

I may be a pain in the rear, but I am a consistent pain in the rear.


----------



## cynic

thesource said:


> So I'll ask the question...
> 
> If everyone can use a compound (because you say its so easy), why create all this turmoil and division to force the stringgun where it doesn't belong?
> 
> If keeping the brotherhood of hunting is SO important to you guys - why make all this fuss and expose us to the antihunters when you are already perfectly capable of hunting during the season you seek?


You really need couselling. Why is it that probow only wants brotherhood on there terms? The post from bsba Member states that it is not hard. If it is not hard to learn to shoot a compound and it is not hard to learn to shoot xbow. Why are you guys making this so hard? Were have we tried to force the xbow. We are trying to get the pro bow to compromise and help make a season. We have only tried to make it legal to hunt with it. Utilizing parts of all season with minimal exposer to Archery but you guys just keep on saying no way. Well if pro bow will not come forth with a compromise why not go for the whole shooting match and take what we get...Allowing to hunt only part of the archery and all seasons permitting guns has been tabled and rejected. We just brought the topic to the table pro bow made the fuss...


----------



## cynic

Kendall Williams
Area Advisor


Joined: 06 May 2004
Posts: 89
Location: Denham Springs
Posted: Sat Feb 11, 2006 12:24 pm Post subject: 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Hi, Susan 
Welcome to the site. 

Shooting a bow and arrows is a fun all the time and every shot! 

It is getting your left hand and arm to do one thing, why your right hand is doing something totaly different. Then have your eyesite involved then your chin, neck, allmost every part of your body can effect the shoot. The best part is very few people can't do it!!! 


______________________>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>__________
Now we have one that claims that only a very few can do..How discouraging to a new perspective ARCHERY Equipment user. Now SOURCE how do you view this..Maybe what is easy for one may not be easy for all. Even able body people are not all the same. So why exclude them from being able to hunt with a bow of some sort.


----------



## thesource

He said:

_The best part is very few people can't do it!!! _


And you read it as:

_Now we have one that claims that only a very few can do_

I think, perhaps, your reading comprehension skills may be to blame for the confusion.


----------



## progers

thesource said:


> ISign your petition? Not so fast. I have also stood for state's sportsmen. I live in NY, I hunt in NY and PA, I have absolutely no business imposing my will (to any degree) on the sportsmen of LA.
> 
> I may be a pain in the rear, but I am a consistent pain in the rear.



As out of state hunters spend more $'s in LA than the resident hunters, out of state hunters have EVERY business imposing their support to our state.

I'm pretty consistent myself as we have already covered that "technicality"! :wink:


----------



## Jim C

thesource said:


> LOL
> 
> Here's what it says under crossbows:
> 
> _Built “Bear Tough,” each F-Series crossbow features a unique two-piece molded stock design typically found only on high-end rifles and shotguns _
> 
> I love it.


should I find some ads for mechanical releases that compare their product to the finest rifle triggers?


----------



## thesource

Does that mean that if the LA sportsmen wanted one thing, but the non-resident sportsman wanted another, that you would support the non-resident's wishes over those of your own sportsmen?


----------



## progers

thesource said:


> So I'll ask the question...
> 
> If everyone can use a compound (because you say its so easy), why create all this turmoil and division to force the stringgun where it doesn't belong?
> 
> If keeping the brotherhood of hunting is SO important to you guys - why make all this fuss and expose us to the antihunters when you are already perfectly capable of hunting during the season you seek?



Because they are infringing on the right of the use of crossbows BEYOND the archery season of whitetail and BEYOND deer season.


The anti-xbow has been handling the "coverage" for the antihunters for nearly 30 years on this issue. Are you suggesting that WE have more of an impact over all the anti-crossbow organizations in the U.S.?

Dude, thanks for the compliment!  

WE are trying to draw a line that will help stop the anti-xbow groups from ATTACKING the xbow groups. The xbow groups don't go looking for troube, they just defend themselves when confronted, unlike the organizations here that we have spoke of that PLEDGES WAR and VOWS TO REMOVE RIGHTS!


----------



## thesource

Jim C said:


> should I find some ads for mechanical releases that compare their product to the finest rifle triggers?


You have to relish the delicious irony of the moment....lol


----------



## Jim C

thesource said:


> So I'll ask the question...
> 
> If everyone can use a compound (because you say its so easy), why create all this turmoil and division to force the stringgun where it doesn't belong?
> 
> If keeping the brotherhood of hunting is SO important to you guys - why make all this fuss and expose us to the antihunters when you are already perfectly capable of hunting during the season you seek?



this is an intellectually bankrupt argument. If you and your ilk were not selfish there would be no fuss. You sound like the Klan telling the blacks not to make a fuss about being treated "separately but "equal"


----------



## cynic

thesource said:


> He said:
> 
> _The best part is very few people can't do it!!! _
> 
> 
> And you read it as:
> 
> _Now we have one that claims that only a very few can do_
> 
> I think, perhaps, your reading comprehension skills may be to blame for the confusion.


I deserved that>>>>Please mark it down that he has been right 4 once in this thread...Give him a lollipop..But I have to ask if you will not sign the petition because " Sign your petition? Not so fast. I have also stood for state's sportsmen. I live in NY, I hunt in NY and PA, I have absolutely no business imposing my will (to any degree) on the sportsmen of LA." Aren't you really saying that you have no business in the debate. You state that you are all for the xbow season but continually bash the people that want to use them in that season. I am going to celebrate my bday now. I promise I will be back later or tomorrow after I go HUNTING with whatever I choose


----------



## progers

thesource said:


> He said:
> 
> _The best part is very few people can't do it!!! _
> 
> 
> And you read it as:
> 
> _Now we have one that claims that only a very few can do_
> 
> I think, perhaps, your reading comprehension skills may be to blame for the confusion.



OK source, now you have proved that almost everybody can shoot a compound and most of us have. Now, it is time to move on to something else to hunt with as some things get old after doing them for years and years.

So, I guess now we can scratch LAZY off the list! Thanks for pointing that out to us! :wink:


----------



## Jim C

thesource said:


> You have to relish the delicious irony of the moment....lol



nah, I am too inured to your blather source. I am tired of your inability to have the balls to come out and tell us exactly what motivates your position. The claim that a crossbow isn't a bow is a childish and cowardly attempt to avoid answering the question. You have yet to ever post a fact (and given bashing crossbows is your obsession-its the only thing you really post about) as how crossbows OBJECTIVELY will hurt bowhunting (and don't post the crap that it hurts bowhunting because it isn't a bow-)


----------



## thesource

Jim -

Just because you refuse to accept it does not mean it is not valid.


----------



## Jim C

thesource said:


> Jim -
> 
> Just because you refuse to accept it does not mean it is not valid.



its a stupid position because claiming it is not a bow doesn't explain how it hurts bowhunting.
it also proves as true everything I have said about your true motivation

do you really think its a winning argument to a Game Department to say that your opposition to using a crossbow is that it isn't a bow even when the federal government and the three biggest archery organizations and many states say otherwise? 

I have been around too long to accept such an argument as true-its merely a facade for another reason that you seem too cowardly to explain here.

the fact is-the only people who claim a xbow isn't a bow are people who start with the proposition that they want to keep crossbows out and then work backwards to find a way to justify the bigotry


----------



## cynic

Guys read Sources public profile. I understand why he is the way he is (2 teenage sons). I know mine drives me crazy. The other spin after reading all the crap it sounds just like a teenager. So who is really behind the screen? Anyone venture a guess?


----------



## thesource

Jim C said:


> do you really think its a winning argument to a Game Department to say that your opposition to using a crossbow is that it isn't a bow even when the federal government and the three biggest archery organizations and many states say otherwise?


I 'll be honest.

I have no idea what the rest of your post said because I stopped here.

1) Please explain how the federal government defines a crossbow as a bow.

2) Please list the top 3 HUNTING organizations that would define a crossbow as a bow -we could care less about spot shooters - this debate is about HUNTING.

3) Please define many states for me - when even your own state has a totally separate definition of "crossbow" and "bow".

Thanks in advance,

Sincerely,
The Source


----------



## Jim C

cynic said:


> Guys read Sources public profile. I understand why he is the way he is (2 teenage sons). I know mine drives me crazy. The other spin after reading all the crap it sounds just like a teenager. So who is really behind the screen? Anyone venture a guess?



good point. It does sound rather juvenile


----------



## Jim C

thesource said:


> I 'll be honest.
> 
> I have no idea what the rest of your post said because I stopped here.
> 
> 1) Please explain how the federal government defines a crossbow as a bow.
> 
> 2) Please list the top 3 HUNTING organizations that would define a crossbow as a bow -we could care less about spot shooters - there is no debate there.
> 
> 3) Please define many states for me - when even your own state has a totally separate definition of "crossbow" and "bow".
> 
> Thanks in advance,
> 
> Sincerely,
> The Source


1) you claim a crossbow is not a bow rather than taking the less stupid position of saying its a bow but not one that should be in bowhunting season. The only groups that say its not a bow are ones that have a motive to keep xbows out-groups that are concerned about archery-ALL FORMS OF ARCHERY and do not have an agenda based on greed of selfishness-all consider a crossbow a form of archery and a type of bow

2) many states allow xbows to be used in archery season by certain individuals. note, they don't allow firearms. its a bit stupid-because a weapon does not change its characteristics based on who uses it

3) Ohio is a bit stupid on that but its not worth worrying about. 

now tell me how society is hurt if a crossbow is used in bowhunting season-and your definitional sensibilities don't count


----------



## thesource

Cynic -

I checked your profile to see about your teenagers and - holy crap! Its your Birthday!

Congrats - I hope you have a good one. You have earned a free pass from my hassling for the rest of the day.

I'll tip a cold one for ya:beer: Happy Birthday!


----------



## thesource

Jim C said:


> 1) you claim a crossbow is not a bow rather than taking the less stupid position of saying its a bow but not one that should be in bowhunting season. The only groups that say its not a bow are ones that have a motive to keep xbows out-groups that are concerned about archery-ALL FORMS OF ARCHERY and do not have an agenda based on greed of selfishness-all consider a crossbow a form of archery and a type of bow
> 
> 2) many states allow xbows to be used in archery season by certain individuals. note, they don't allow firearms. its a bit stupid-because a weapon does not change its characteristics based on who uses it
> 
> 3) Ohio is a bit stupid on that but its not worth worrying about.
> 
> now tell me how society is hurt if a crossbow is used in bowhunting season-and your definitional sensibilities don't count




I won't have to answer squat until YOU address the points that YOU brought up in the first place. (He has not answered any of them, by the way, for those in the audience keeping track - well, I guess he took a squirelly pass at #3)

Here they are again, in case you forgot:


1) Please explain how the federal government defines a crossbow as a bow.

2) Please list the top 3 HUNTING organizations that would define a crossbow as a bow -we could care less about spot shooters - this debate is about HUNTING.

3) Please define many states for me - when even your own state has a totally separate definition of "crossbow" and "bow".


----------



## Jim C

thesource said:


> I won't have to answer squat until YOU address the points that YOU brought up in the first place. (He has not answered any of them, by the way, for those in the audience keeping track - well, I guess he took a squirelly pass at #3)
> 
> Here they are again, in case you forgot:
> 
> 
> 1) Please explain how the federal government defines a crossbow as a bow.


<the IRS and the ATF treat them as bows, not guns>



thesource said:


> 2) Please list the top 3 HUNTING organizations that would define a crossbow as a bow -we could care less about spot shooters - this debate is about HUNTING.


that wasn't the parameters I mentioned. the NFAA and the IBO are both groups that promote bowhunting and both have far more members than your pitiful NYB group-the NAA was also a major player in getting bowhunting accepted as well-they were around alot longer than P&Y btw and had crossbows in their tournaments long before anyone ever heard of P&Y

3


thesource said:


> ) Please define many states for me - when even your own state has a totally separate definition of "crossbow" and "bow".


asked and answered-more than half the states allow xbows by some people in archery season

Now tell us what really motivates your nonsense


----------



## progers

thesource said:


> Cynic -
> 
> I checked your profile to see about your teenagers and - holy crap! Its your Birthday!
> 
> Congrats - I hope you have a good one. You have earned a free pass from my hassling for the rest of the day.
> 
> I'll tip a cold one for ya:beer: Happy Birthday!



HAPPY BIRTHDAY CYNIC!!!!!! :beer:


----------



## progers

THIS IS WHAT IT IS ALL ABOUT........................




Courtney, who turned 6 this past July and weighs a whopping 40 pounds and is as cute as a button wanted to hunt with her dad. They live in Tennesse and as he hunts with a compound, he got her a crossbow so she could go hunting with dad during archery season. Tennesse just past this law this year by the way. On the morning of October 1st, she was hunting sith Dad in a 2 man 16' ladder stand. 

The 2 1/2 year old 8pt appeared at 8:50 am and after spending 15 minutes trying to get a bead, Little Courtney took this nice buck at 9 yards.

They filmed her as she trailed her "first deer". She was quoted at calling it "following the blood tracks".


----------



## Jim C

progers said:


> THIS IS WHAT IT IS ALL ABOUT........................
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Courtney, who turned 6 this past July and weighs a whopping 40 pounds and is as cute as a button wanted to hunt with her dad. They live in Tennesse and as he hunts with a compound, he got her a crossbow so she could go hunting with dad during archery season. Tennesse just past this law this year by the way. On the morning of October 1st, she was hunting sith Dad in a 2 man 16' ladder stand.
> 
> The 2 1/2 year old 8pt appeared at 8:50 am and after spending 15 minutes trying to get a bead, Little Courtney took this nice buck at 9 yards.
> 
> They filmed her as she trailed her "first deer". She was quoted at calling it "following the blood tracks".


saw her on the cover of HB. cute kid-hopefully vaccinated against the PETA disease for life

its too bad that people on this board were rather have her not hunt than use a crossbow


----------



## thesource

Jim C said:


> <the IRS and the ATF treat them as bows, not guns>


A list for tax purposes, not a definition. Besides, archery equipment and "sporting arms" are taxed at exactly the same rate. Not much leverage there.

On the other hand, the USFWS decidedly treats them differently. BOWS can be used to hunt waterfowl. Xbows can NOT.

Still waiting for an official Federal definition of a crossbow as a bow.



Jim C said:


> that wasn't the parameters I mentioned. the NFAA and the IBO are both groups that promote bowhunting and both have far more members than your pitiful NYB group-the NAA was also a major player in getting bowhunting accepted as well-they were around alot longer than P&Y btw and had crossbows in their tournaments long before anyone ever heard of P&Y


Who cares what parameters you mentioned? We are talking about HUNTING and the definitions that apply to HUNTING. No one cares what the NFAA or the IBO says is legal for shooting at targets. We are talking about what is appropriate for shooting at real live deer, and when. Your chosen groups are irrelevant. Perhaps we should look to the authority - that would be P&Y.



Jim C said:


> asked and answered-more than half the states allow xbows by some people in archery season


Is this a joke? ALL of the states that allow xbow for physically challenged in archery but not for everyone are SCREAMING their definition at you. They specifically state their definition of a bow, and then waive it for the physically challenged (and in some cases, aging.)

That's a good thing. But all it does is reinforce the fact that ALL of these states do not believe that a crossbow is the same as a bow. It is so different, in fact, that a very specific set of circumstances and conditions must be met before it can even be considered for use.

You are sinking. Quickly.


----------



## Jim C

that you can't answer a simple question source proves you have lost

I have no problem justifying or explaining my position
I believe a crossbow should be treated exactly the same as a compound for hunting purposes -true I have no problems with some minor differences in the law such as a minimum weight that is different or a safety catch requirment

WHY=because those two bows are equivalent in terms of range and accuracy

why-because people want to use them in archery season and there is NOT ONE BIT OF EVIDENCE that establishes that such use is detrimental to anyone else

NOW lets see if you can actually answer a question rather than whine about ancillary parts of my position

how does using a crossbow in compound season objectively negatively affect you or bowhunting


----------



## Jim C

hmmm, all I hear is crickets


----------



## cynic

Thanks all for the bday wishes.....Just finished the backstrap cooked with bkilers recipe from the one sided 5 point killed with what? Progers knows..A crossbow. Some how I managed to kill 4 deer w/ a verticle bow but only 1 with my crossbow. The magic of the crossbow is not what it seems but it is a choice that I can make. I have bow hunted year after year upgrading my bows to the point of nonsense. If a hunter wants to choose to shoot a xbow more power to them. I have one, I shoot one, the hunt is no less challenging. I also love my EDGE and SDS and Patriot and Phantom mag II along with my Pedesoli and thompson blk diamond and Tradition lghtng liteweight and the famed 2 Savage 10MLII smokeless muzzleloaders then I can go to 23 rifles, next assorted shotguns and the rimfires I know this is all nonsense but it is used to show choice. I do not advocate the use of firearms in Archery So don't go to that extreme. A hunters limits and choices should only be limited to his/her arsenal..If it is archery equipment use it during archery season so on and so forth. Plz don't say a crossbow is not a bow and start this vicious circle all over again. We'll make it easy just give us a defined season


----------



## Jim C

DougK said:


> I have to wonder why we continue to debate with SourceofIgnorance. The guy obviously has a serious mental problem related to how others may want to participate in bowhunting..
> 
> It's much the same as debating a guy who refuses to accept the compound as a bow-and argues with absolutely no substance it is not a bow-it creates problems-for the lazy-etc..
> 
> He's a proven bold faced liar...probably an inept hunter..poor sportsman..


he serves a useful purpose-by not answering my straight forward question or by claiming he is against crossbows in bow season on the grounds he doesn't consider them bows he only helps our side by showing the uncommitted that the anti xbow side is not honest


----------



## Jim C

DougK said:


> Maybe he should join Compton Traditional Bowhunters..
> 
> they don't consider the _compound a bow._.


yes I have read the blatherings of those nutcases. Oh well, there are people who say that Federer and Sampras aren't any good because they don't play with wood tennis racquets


----------



## JDMiller

progers said:


> JDMiller,
> 
> From what compromises I have heard, especially as far as LA goes and the opposition here is, if I would scratch there back, they would slap me in my face.
> 
> That about sums up the compromise, wouldn't you agree?!?



Yep......... I agree. Thats pretty much what has happened in every state that have expanded crossbows throughout archery. The opposition dug their heels in and ended up being hung out to dry....which is OK ..it's just giving crossbow users the run of the entire season as it should be. :wink:


----------



## progers

OK, the anti-xbow side has clearly stated that if and when crossbows are allowed that they will just take over everything. Also, they say that since crossbows are more like guns then, they will just slaughter the deer. 

Now, since Louisiana borders Arkansas and our numbers on everything from deer population to the number of hunters are very very similar and crossbows have been legal in Arkansas since archery season has begun there (wow, crossbows are a tradition as much as the other bows there) I am going to compare Arkansas to Louisiana in projected crossbow impact on deer harvest.

Here is the 2003 - 2005 Arkansas Deer Harvest report broke down by weapon:











Now, I don't want to hear any complaing about record keeping because Arkansas has probably one of the top record keeping programs that I have laid eyes on.

Well folks, there you have it. Crossbows will increase the numbers but, not drastically. It seems the "traditionalist" hold their own when you break the numbers down.


----------



## progers

Here yall go guys!

Here is something to go have fun with.

http://www.mississippibowhunters.com/cgi-bin/forum.cgi?topic=460




> MBA members and fellow bowhunters,
> We need your help!
> We are facing a very real and imminent threat to the sport we enjoy so much.
> 
> Several lawmakers are supporting legislation to turn bowhunting season into a firearm season. We have been monitoring and responding behind the scenes to these efforts both at the legislative and Mississippi Department of Wildlife level. However, as we speak SB2768 and HB1243 are moving through the legislature. Without your immediate help, the bow seasons of the past that we have grown to enjoy will be no more.


Guess what? This was last year and they lost !  

http://mississippibowhunters.com/htm.files/alert.sb2768.hb1243.htm


----------



## thesource

Jim C said:


> that you can't answer a simple question source proves you have lost
> 
> I have no problem justifying or explaining my position
> 
> how does using a crossbow in compound season objectively negatively affect you or bowhunting


Ahhhh - claiming victory, again. No one does that better than you, Jim.

You did not sufficiently justify your position, You should finish answering my questions before you start asking more of your own. You have not backed up your claims that 1) the federal gov defines a crossbow as a bow 2) Leading organizations (that matter - meaning hunting) define a crossbow as a bow and 3) Most states define a crossbow as a bow.

I am especially interested in seeing you try to wiggle out #3 - please don't continue to disappoint me by dodging the issue yet again.


Before I even address how a crossbow would negatively impact me or bowhunting, I need to be convinced that crossbows actually belong there.


----------



## cynic

thesource said:


> 3) Most states define a crossbow as a bow.
> Before I even address how a crossbow would negatively impact me or bowhunting, I need to be convinced that crossbows actually belong there.


I have search for atleast 1 state that allows the use of a firearm during archery. Just to help you out Source, but there is not one not even for handicapped or elderly. Instead all I found is the xbow. So, I guess we are stuck with the divine force (commission) through its infamous wisdom declared that a XBOW could be used since it is the most like tackle. A BOW. It is through this eye opening intervention that has allowed its use by many other states. As more eyes are opened the more states that also allow it. Progers has done an excellent job on displaying the statistic to help you and others understand the impact structure. Please read the obove documentation and if you have any complaints contact Arkansas. We don't want to hear your whining about the numbers. If/when you get Arkansas to change the report we will debate the numbers. Until then this is what we have. With these number glaring out at you try to manipulate them to show that the xbow will be detrimental to the archery season.


----------



## thesource

Where to begin?

First - you must not have looked very hard for states that allow firearms in archery season. MS has a freaky new rule allowing old blackpowder cartridge guns, VA and others allows MZ. 

Second - Yes a crossbow is "the most like tackle." But that doesn't mean it is the same tackle, and the VAST MAJORITY (if not all) states have separate definitions for bow and crossbow.

Now, on to AR. Notice I did not jump on the AR statistics.

I left them alone for ONE reason - not that they are somehow unimpeachable, rather it is due to progers opening statement: _"since Louisiana borders Arkansas and our numbers on everything from deer population to the number of hunters are very very similar" _

He's right. Both AR and LA are similar in terms of number of deer and deer hunters.

If you try to extrapolate those numbers elsewhere, the same conditions must be met. In other words, you should not try to suggest that what works in AR with its puny total of 27,000 "archers" will also work in MI with its massive 315,000 bowhunters.


Here's the funny thing. You spend half your time trying to convince me that you are not interested in xbow for archery season, and that you just want xbows to be allowed. But then you spend the other half arguing about why xbow should be allowed in archery season.

Any wonder why the xbow oppposition in LA maintains their "No Toehold" policy about crossbows?


----------



## cynic

thesource said:


> Where to begin?
> 
> First - you must not have looked very hard for states that allow firearms in archery season. MS has a freaky new rule allowing old blackpowder cartridge guns, VA and others allows MZ.
> 
> If you try to extrapolate those numbers elsewhere, the same conditions must be met. In other words, you should not try to suggest that what works in AR with its puny total of 27,000 "archers" will also work in MI with its massive 315,000 bowhunters.
> 
> Here's the funny thing. You spend half your time trying to convince me that you are not interested in xbow for archery season, and that you just want xbows to be allowed. But then you spend the other half arguing about why xbow should be allowed in archery season.
> 
> Any wonder why the xbow oppposition in LA maintains their "No Toehold" policy about crossbows?


But MS doesn't allow the pre 1900 cartridges to be use in ARCHERY. And is it tha VA and Others allow them in Archery or is it by definition something other than ARCHERY SEASON
Archery tackle (includes longbow, recurve, compound, and crossbows) may be used for hunting wild birds and animals.
Crossbow Use and License: Crossbows are legal to use by any hunter during the hunting seasons. A crossbow license is required of any person using a crossbow during any archery season (including the urban archery season). Disabled hunters unable to use conventional archery equipment will no longer need a doctor's certification to use a crossbow. If a hunter chooses to use both conventional archery tackle and a crossbow during any archery season the hunter would need both an archery license when using the conventional bow and a crossbow license when using the crossbow. No crossbow license is required when hunting with a crossbow during the general firearms season just as there is no requirement for a person to have an archery license if using conventional archery equipment during the general firearms season. 
Virginia Hunting Regulations 2005-06
Big Game Hunting Seasons
Deer — General Information
Bag Limits:
East of the Blue Ridge (except on National Forest lands in Amherst, Bedford, and Nelson counties)

The bag limit for deer for all hunters shall be two a day, six a license year, three of which must be antlerless. 
West of the Blue Ridge and on National Forest lands in Amherst, Bedford, and Nelson counties

The bag limit for deer for all hunters shall be one a day, five a license year, three of which must be antlerless. Only one antlered buck may be taken during the early muzzleloading season per muzzleloader hunter. 
Bag limit Exceptions
Deer hunters, including those exempt from purchasing a license, on private land and authorized public lands may take more than the license-year bag limit by using bonus deer permits or special permits (DCAP and DMAP). 
DCAP and DMAP tags do not count against the daily or season bag limit. However, only two DCAP or DMAP tags may be used per deer hunter per day. 
Antlered and Antlerless Deer
Antlered Deer
Antlered bucks must have antlers visible above the hairline. 
Antlerless Deer
Antlerless deer may only be taken during designated either-sex deer hunting days during the archery season(s), muzzleloading season(s), and firearms season. 
Youth deer hunters see Special Youth Antlerless Deer Regulation provisions below. 
Special Youth Antlerless Deer Regulation
Deer hunters 15 years of age and under, resident or nonresident, may take one antlerless deer per license year on days other than designated either-sex deer hunting days during the muzzleloading season(s) or the firearms season in all counties that have at least one either-sex deer hunting day during the firearms deer season. 
Bonus Deer Permits
Are valid for antlerless deer only. 
Are not restricted to the number that may be purchased and used. 
Allow deer to be taken in addition to the license year bag limit. 
Do not allow daily bag limits to be exceeded. 
Are valid only on private lands and authorized public lands. 
Are not valid on National Forest and Department-owned lands. 
Are not valid in Buchanan, Dickenson, and Wise counties. 
Are valid during the archery, muzzleloading, and firearms deer seasons. 
Are valid only on designated either-sex deer hunting days. 
Archery Deer Seasons
Archery Either-Sex Deer Hunting
Deer of either sex may be taken full season during all archery seasons, unless otherwise noted below 
Only antlered (buck) deer may be taken during the early and late archery deer seasons in Buchanan County, on private lands in Dickenson County, and on private lands in Wise County. Deer of either sex may be taken full season during the archery deer seasons on public lands (National Forest and U.S. Corp of Engineer) in Dickenson County and Wise County. 
Early Archery Season:
October 1-November 18: Statewide

Late Archery Seasons:
December 5–January 7:

In all areas west of the Blue Ridge (except Clarke and Floyd counties and on private lands in Frederick County). 
In the counties (including the cities and towns within) of Amherst (west of Rt. 29), Bedford, Campbell (west of Norfolk Southern Railroad), Nelson (west of Rt. 151). 
On the Chester F. Phelps WMA and on National Forest lands in Frederick County. 
December 1–January 7:

In the cities of Chesapeake, Suffolk (east of the Dismal Swamp line), and Virginia Beach. 
December 19–January 7:

In the counties (including the cities and towns within) of Floyd, Franklin, Henry, Patrick, and Pittsylvania (west of Norfolk Southern Railroad). 
Urban Archery Deer Seasons:
September 17–30 and January 9–March 25

Within the incorporated limits of the cities of Colonial Heights, Emporia, Franklin, Lynchburg, Martinsville, Radford, Richmond, Winchester and the towns of Altavista, Amherst, Blacksburg, Christiansburg, Farmville, Independence, Rocky Mount, Tazewell, West Point and in Fairfax County. 
During these seasons only antlerless deer may be taken. 
Lists of properties available for hunting are not maintained by the Department or local governments. 
Visit the Urban Archery Season section of this Web site for local restrictions, check stations, and other information. 
Legal Methods and Restrictions During Archery Deer Seasons:
Archery License required if hunting with a longbow, recurve, or compound bow. 
Crossbow License required if hunting with a crossbow. 
Archery tackle (includes longbow, recurve, compound, and crossbow bow) only. 
Arrowhead widths must be at least 7⁄8-inch wide or expand upon impact to 7⁄8-inch. 
Bows must be capable of propelling a broadhead arrow at least 125 yards. 
It is unlawful to use arrows to which any drug, chemical or toxic substance has been added or explosive head arrows. 
It is unlawful to have a firearm in possession (see exception for concealed handguns on page 17). 
It is unlawful to use dogs. 


I could not find where rifles or ML are allowed in archery season even as you claim that VA permits them..


----------



## thesource

Well, here's the dates, copied straight out of the VA guide:

_Deer
Archery
Statewide (Early) – October 7 – November 17 
West (Late) – December 4 – January 6 

Muzzleloader
East (Early) – November 4–17 
West (Early) – November 11–17 _

Looks like they allow MZ in Archery season to me. BigBirdVA gave a running commentary last year as crossbows were legalized.

First it was archery - then MZ during part of archery - then xbow during all of archery. There is no exclusive season for bowhunting anymore in VA.


----------



## thesource

cynic said:


> So, I guess we are stuck with the divine force (commission) through its infamous wisdom declared that a XBOW could be used since it is the most like tackle. A BOW.


By the by....using your own logic, we must conclude that since ME, WI, MI and others elected to put crossbows in gun season, then through their divine wisdom they have concluded that "a XBOW could be used since it is the most like tackle." A GUN.

So much for absolutes.


----------



## cynic

thesource said:


> Well, here's the dates, copied straight out of the VA guide:
> 
> _Deer
> Archery
> Statewide (Early) – October 7 – November 17
> West (Late) – December 4 – January 6
> 
> Muzzleloader
> East (Early) – November 4–17
> West (Early) – November 11–17 _
> 
> Looks like they allow MZ in Archery season to me. BigBirdVA gave a running commentary last year as crossbows were legalized.
> 
> First it was archery - then MZ during part of archery - then xbow during all of archery. There is no exclusive season for bowhunting anymore in VA.


But did you read the cnty's that each one is permitted in and it states "where firearms are permitted"? While the season dates start with overlapping periods do they take place at the same location? We are getting off topic again and I will take part of the blame. You stated using firearms in archery season..They are using ML's in Ml seasonwhich overlaps part of Archery but not in an exclusive archery season :

October 1-November 18: Statewide

Late Archery Seasons:
December 5–January 7:

...So evidently you chose to use a older set of regulations. Since they added an addition week somehow between what you read and the 05-06 season and by appearence they included the overlap but took nothing from archery length


----------



## thesource

I no longer understand what point you were trying to make, if I ever did.

If you were trying to say that the fact that some states allow xbow in bowseason and that means its a bow, then, as I said, you would be forced to conclude that where states allow xbow in gun season that means its a gun.


----------



## cynic

thesource said:


> I no longer understand what point you were trying to make, if I ever did.
> 
> If you were trying to say that the fact that some states allow xbow in bowseason and that means its a bow, then, as I said, you would be forced to conclude that where states allow xbow in gun season that means its a gun.


But they also allow the use of a verticle bow in general firearm season so that means that all weapons that are allowed to be used in general gun are firearms. You are a genious 

I am merely helping you to understand that the points that you make are stupid and arguementative at best. You would be forced to conclude that if you make stupid comments that you are stupid by your own reasoning


----------



## progers

thesource, here is your compromise:

1. crossbows in archery season: women and children under the age of 15 have use of crossbows in early season archery. This is to promote women and youth hunters, ONLY. Here in LA, youth numbers are down and women only make up 10% of the hunter numbers.


2. crossbows in late archery season: we all know that nobody cares about late archery season. The fight is over early archery season as that is when the deer feed more during the day before they go into their nocturnal patterns and, as it has been said many time, before the woods get disturbed and the deer get spooky. So, everybody has choice in late archery season. 

How is that for a FAIR compromise?


----------



## progers

thesource said:


> Now, on to AR. Notice I did not jump on the AR statistics.
> 
> I left them alone for ONE reason - not that they are somehow unimpeachable, rather it is due to progers opening statement: _"since Louisiana borders Arkansas and our numbers on everything from deer population to the number of hunters are very very similar" _
> 
> He's right. Both AR and LA are similar in terms of number of deer and deer hunters.
> 
> If you try to extrapolate those numbers elsewhere, the same conditions must be met. In other words, you should not try to suggest that what works in AR with its puny total of 27,000 "archers" will also work in MI with its massive 315,000 bowhunters.




This is about Louisiana and not about Michigan. Michigan has Ted to fight for them. We are fighting for LA rights at this time. Yes, this info can be used by other states but, not all of it as each state is different in its own way. We are very similar to Arkansas. Number wise and foraige wise. Except for the extreme costal regions of LA.


----------



## thesource

Regarding your proposal in post #703:

Add physically challenged and men over 50 to the early archery (you may already have this) and it sounds perfectly reasonable. I would recommend you rename the late archery season to Archery and Crossbow Season, though.

How will you address your opposition's worries that this compromise is just a stepping stone to crossbows for anyone in the early archery season?


----------



## cynic

thesource said:


> Regarding your proposal in post #703:
> 
> Add physically challenged and men over 50 to the early archery (you may already have this) and it sounds perfectly reasonable. I would recommend you rename the late archery season to Archery and Crossbow Season, though.
> 
> How will you address your opposition's worries that this compromise is just a stepping stone to crossbows for anyone in the early archery season?


Thank you for your recommendations that have been noted and overlooked..Again thanks


----------



## progers

thesource said:


> Regarding your proposal in post #703:
> 
> Add physically challenged and men over 50 to the early archery (you may already have this) and it sounds perfectly reasonable. I would recommend you rename the late archery season to Archery and Crossbow Season, though.
> 
> How will you address your opposition's worries that this compromise is just a stepping stone to crossbows for anyone in the early archery season?




It is already allowed for handicapped and seniors over 6o but, I agree with the men over 50 as age and work issues are affecting the ones 50 and above.

I don't have a problem for calling it "crossbow" season but, we will have to start calling archery season "compound" season as that is what it mainly is. If we call the latter "crossbow season" then, the other bows should not be allowed because it would be simply "crossbow season", correct!?!


----------



## thesource

Take a hint from Alabama and call the late season "Bow and Crossbow Season", since bow covers traditional and compound. 

You may not realize this, but I hunt with traditional equipment. I have no problems with compounds being considered bows, since they are an evolution of traditional bows. Modern crossbows, on the other hand, are the evolution of traditional crossbows. If you insist on separating the traditional equipment from the evolved equipment in one class, you will need to do it for both. No scopes, no pulleys, no synthetics or composites....wood and iron baby. Be consistent or be gone.

I have no problem with an exclusive crossbow season as long as Bow season is also exclusive and the division between the 2 weapons is equitable.


----------



## progers

*proposals...*

Ok, I offered this proposal to the Assistant Director (or whatever the title is) of the BSBA, Shane Crochet. This is what is being said:

proposal offer:


progers said:


> Shane,
> 
> crossbows in early archery season for children under the age of 15 and for women.
> 
> Youth numbers are down. A child can shoot an xbow at the age of 6 with dad in the stand. They would have to be near 10 to do it with a legal pull compound. That puts the youths in the woods 4 years sooner.
> 
> As women make up a mere 10% of hunters in La, this will help promote women hunters.
> 
> Everyone for late archery season. As far as late archery season, nobody cares about it. You and I and everyone else know that. Early archery season is when the deer are feeding more in the daytime. It is before they go into their nocturnal patterns. The deer are not spooky at this time.
> 
> What do you think
> Please Reply


Shane's 1st reply
8:49am 2/12/06


shanec said:


> Here is my question. How would you enforce it for just women or childeren?
> 
> I think in part the reason numbers are down in Louisiana and going up in certain other states is the quality of hunting. Alot of people hunt either Texas or Mississippi. I know people here that have leases in Illinois and even Kansas. These people want bigger bucks. Some people in Louisiana don't want to hear that but I believe if on a more consistant basis people were shooting 150 class bucks and bigger they would stay here in our own state. This is just my opinion and not the BSBA's for the record.


My reply to shane's 1st reply:


progers said:


> For starters, childeren under the age of 15 do not need to purchase a hunting license, that one is covered. For the women, additional permits.
> 
> You're right. I don't want to hear about bragging rights on 'trophy" bucks. If they are hunting out of state instead of here then, who cares.
> 
> this is a 3 answer possible response.
> 
> Yes
> No
> Maybe
> 
> Please quit avoiding the question and reply.
> 
> Thanks



Shane's 2nd reply:
9:04am 2/12/06


shanec said:


> I am not dodging anything Paul. I just feel arguing with you does neither you nor I any good.
> 
> My post about hunters numbers down is that people are leaving the state to hunt. That is what I am getting at.
> 
> shane



My reply to Shane's 2nd reply:


progers said:


> I'm not arguing. I am asking you for one word.
> 
> Yes
> No
> Maybe
> 
> Paul



My follow up reply:


progers said:


> One word is all I ask. You give me your honest reply and I leave and never post at this site again.
> 
> You have my word.
> 
> Paul






............9:27am................(the sound of crickets)................




I made the same proposal To Kenny Borel:

9:34am 2/12/06


> Paul,
> I have never given my opinion on this issue. The only opinion I have given is the opinion of our membership acquired by doing our annual survey. As a Director, I can't or won't get into my personal feelings on any issues surrounding this organization. As always we will let future surveys decide the direction we will take.
> 
> Thanks
> Kenny Borel
> BSBA
> Bowhunting Director
> Link to Post - Back to Top Logged
> 
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >>>---Kenny Borel--->
> BSBA Bowhunting Director
> 
> Mathews/Blues Archery Co-op Shooter
> Copper John Shooting Staff
> BCY Shooting Staff
> TRU-Ball Shooting Staff


My reply back to Kenny:


progers said:


> Your personal feeling led you to join the BSBA.
> 
> one word Kenny
> 
> Yes
> No
> Maybe
> 
> You can speak on behalf of the BSBA if so desired.
> 
> Thanks
> Paul Rogers




2nd reply to Kenny:


progers said:


> Kenny,
> 
> I give you the same offer as Shane.
> 
> Answer with the one word and I give the site my public apology, I go into my profile and delete myself and I never return.
> 
> you have my word.
> 
> Thanks,
> Paul Rogers





............9:52am................(the sound of more crickets)................



10:10 am I'm tired of waiting for a reply!

to be continued! 


Oh well, I tried!


----------



## progers

thesource said:


> Take a hint from Alabama and call the late season "Bow and Crossbow Season", since bow covers traditional and compound.
> 
> You may not realize this, but I hunt with traditional equipment. I have no problems with compounds being considered bows, since they are an evolution of traditional bows. Modern crossbows, on the other hand, are the evolution of traditional crossbows. If you insist on separating the traditional equipment from the evolved equipment in one class, you will need to do it for both. No scopes, no pulleys, no synthetics or composites....wood and iron baby. Be consistent or be gone.
> 
> I have no problem with an exclusive crossbow season as long as Bow season is also exclusive and the division between the 2 weapons is equitable.



That's a great point thesorce. With that being said, since crossbows have been around since around 3ooBC then mabe the "traditional" bows were a "devolved" form of the crossbow.


Oh yea, also, I tried the "compromise" thing with the BSBA. Apparently they will have no part in this.

I will say that they are suppose to do a "survey" of all the BSBA members and get back with me in a couple of weeks. I understand that these things take time. I will be here waiting for there reply as Shane give me his word he would respond to me personally on this issue.

In my opinion, it will be NO. But, we can only wait and see.


----------



## thesource

progers said:


> That's a great point thesorce. With that being said, since crossbows have been around since around 3ooBC then mabe the "traditional" bows were a "devolved" form of the crossbow..


 Huh?



progers said:


> Oh yea, also, I tried the "compromise" thing with the BSBA. Apparently they will have no part in this.
> 
> I will say that they are suppose to do a "survey" of all the BSBA members and get back with me in a couple of weeks. I understand that these things take time. I will be here waiting for there reply as Shane give me his word he would respond to me personally on this issue.
> 
> In my opinion, it will be NO. But, we can only wait and see.


Yea, I saw it. I would think that he's being honest when he says he would need to survey his BSBA members before officially answering.

I also would think that if you were serious about compromise, you would continue to pursue it, not just throw it out as a one shot deal.


----------



## BigBirdVA

thesource said:


> Well, here's the dates, copied straight out of the VA guide:
> First it was archery - then MZ during part of archery - then xbow during all of archery. There is no exclusive season for bowhunting anymore in VA.


When archery first came in we had our own season and additional deer tags attached to the archery license. There was a week between archery and general gun. Then they added ML season and extended archery. I'm not 100% sure on the order but archery and ML were close in times of being run together those last 2 weeks. In several eastern counties general gun comes in the same day archery does. The eastern areas are deer hunt w/dogs so you have hunters releasing dogs and it pretty well makes archery null and void during the dog/deer season. Then they took the additional tags off the archery license (and ML too) and put them on general gun license. This way if you score during archery you have to spend $$ for bonus tags to hunt during gun. You can (with a few exceptions) buy all the doe tags you want on private land. 
Now xbow runs the whole of archery season - as it should. The trend in VA. seems to be $$$ for an additional license for any reason they can dream up.
The gun hunters don't have to buy a license for shotgun and then another for rifle so why 2 bow licenses? The history in VA. is the dog hunters rule. The laws and seasons won't change as they are the majority and have a fit. In the past they tried to make those eastern counties fall in with the rest of the state. The dog hunters claimed that if they hunted there late the many swamps in the eastern parts would be frozen and the dogs would cut their feet on the ice or fall through. As a note there are no swamps no where else in the state - nor does it ever freeze in those areas during hunting season. Righttttt.......... So you can see how the dog hunters rule. The reality is the hunters flock to the eastern counties to run their dogs and as soon as general gun comes in they pretty much head west and hunt those counties. Those that don't have places to hunt in this earlier season train their dogs or let them run during archery and even before archery season opens. So the eastern 2/3 of VA. it's almost impossible not to have hunting dogs running during bow season. Add in the majority of the easter lands are leased hunt clubs and some of those do not allow archery - period. As a bowhunter in VA you're pretty much used to being the red-headed stepchild.


----------



## progers

thesource said:


> Huh?
> 
> 
> 
> Yea, I saw it. I would think that he's being honest when he says he would need to survey his BSBA members before officially answering.
> 
> I also would think that if you were serious about compromise, you would continue to pursue it, not just throw it out as a one shot deal.



Consistancy is best policy! :wink:




Yes, I agree he is being honest. That's why I said that I could understand.


If I wasn't serious, I would not have posted it here, at there site and at mine. If they agree to the compromise then I will stand behind it. If it goes thru and the State decides what is best, it will not be my fault. Agreed?

I will stand behind it. But, if they decline then, I reserve my right to withdraw. Correct?


----------



## progers

DougK said:


> Paul's compromise is a step..
> 
> but really..I ask..why any compromise?
> 
> xbows are bows and are archery equipment..
> 
> just put them in with archery season and let the people decide what they want to use..



Doug, I understand your view. However, the man asked for a compromise so, I felt it best to compromise in this fassion.

If they decline then they openly admit that they do not support promotion of youths and women hunters. As this compromise is solely based on the promotion of women and children, not only to hunting but, to the world of archery!


----------



## progers

Now, my compromise automatically includes the crossbow in MZL and firearm seasons as that is not archery season.

the compromise is a compromise of archery season only!

Let that be clear to everyone.

A crossbow in no way will have ANY advantage over a MZL or firearm. :wink:


----------



## thesource

progers said:


> If they decline then they openly admit that they do not support promotion of youths and women hunters. As this compromise is solely based on the promotion of women and children, not only to hunting but, to the world of archery!


That's not entirely true. You are also stating that you want xbow for anyone in the late bow season.

You could forward a proposal that championed crossbows only for women and children, if you wanted.

By the way, you still have not addressed how you plan to defuse the "stepping stone" issue - possible future encroachment on early bow season?


----------



## thesource

DougK said:


> I would suspect that xbows would just be another choice for all bowhunters.


LOL - you are too easy.

You obviously suspect wrong, since xbows are currently illegal in LA for physically able.

The 18 pages of posts should have given you a clue...


----------



## BigBirdVA

> Originally Posted by thesource
> Maybe THIS is exactly what P&Y meant when they stated that "crossbows are the biggest future threat to bowhunting."


They're the biggest threat to *CHANGE* to bowhunting. Just as compounds were back in their day of emergence into the scene. Since all the stats for xbows are the same as compounds the only thing different about them is change itself. That and people that the method of use compounds excluded will now be able to hunt. So which is it? Greed or fear of change that bothers you antis the most? Another reason to hunt with an xbow. I don't want to be associated with a group that is that screwed up in their thinking.


----------



## cynic

Momma always says "stupid is as stupid duz" My proposal is if it's sticks and strings ARCHERY if you shove in the barrel muzzleloader. if it loads from the rear (except you source) general gun..Lets go for it all and if the silly narrow minded .......Where's my blood pressure medicine....? Who ever said ignorance is bliss is just wrong it's plain stupidity.


----------



## thesource

BigBirdVA said:


> I don't want to be associated with a group that is that screwed up in their thinking.



Don't worry - no one considers you a bowhunter anymore. 



BigBirdVA said:


> Since all the stats for xbows are the same as compounds the only thing different about them is change itself.


You say this - but you can't prove it. Unfortunately, I cannot prove its wrong, either. If we could get at hunter harvest rates, or especially hunter harvest rates/hours hunted, then and only then could we start to look at meaningful statistics and determine if your hypothesis of xbow = compound is true.

Based on the early VA harvest rates, its NOT true in your home state. Crossbow hunters had a harvest rate over 2X that of bow hunters. But, again, and to be fair, we would need to understand the hours hunted part of the equation to draw conclusions.


----------



## cynic

thesource said:


> Don't worry - no one considers you a bowhunter anymore.
> 
> 
> 
> You say this - but you can't prove it. Unfortunately, I cannot prove its wrong, either. If we could get at hunter harvest rates, or especially hunter harvest rates/hours hunted, then and only then could we start to look at meaningful statistics and determine if your hypothesis of xbow = compound is true.
> 
> Based on the early VA harvest rates, its NOT true in your home state. Crossbow hunters had a harvest rate over 2X that of bow hunters. But, again, and to be fair, we would need to understand the hours hunted part of the equation to draw conclusions.


If they don't consider him a bow hunter anymore. Has anyone other than you self considered you a hunter of any type. You state that you can not prove its wrong, have you ever proven anything other than the self evident


----------



## thesource

cynic said:


> ..Lets go for it all and if the silly narrow minded .......Where's my blood pressure medicine....? Who ever said ignorance is bliss is just wrong it's plain stupidity.


Cynic, I have not seen a person flip-flop this much over a single issue since Kerry was running for President.

First you say you just want crossbows for game other than deer, then its everything, then its deer but not in archery, now its "go for it all"

No wonder those folks at BSBA can't take you guys seriously.


----------



## cynic

thesource said:


> Cynic, I have not seen a person flip-flop this much over a single issue since Kerry was running for President.
> 
> First you say you just want crossbows for game other than deer, then its everything, then its deer but not in archery, now its "go for it all"
> 
> No wonder those folks at BSBA can't take you guys seriously.


Ding ding ding round 2. when all compromise fails forget the other side. We have placed too many compromises on the table. At this point it is apperent that you represent the major underminded. We have tried to find a mutual ground. It is pro bow that is unwaivering in there determination to keep us out. Why would I worry about the ones like you getting there toes stepped on. If the commission so decides to withhold the use of xbows this year because of narrow minded insight such as yours, Next year we will be even more determined and more prepared.


----------



## cro

i can't wait to let my son shoot a xbow so i can take a picture like that. i can only shoot a xbow because i am considered a handicapped person. i can't wait to get rid of that licences with a wheel chair on it.


----------



## progers

*progers over and out................*



thesource said:


> That's not entirely true. You are also stating that you want xbow for anyone in the late bow season.
> 
> You could forward a proposal that championed crossbows only for women and children, if you wanted.
> 
> By the way, you still have not addressed how you plan to defuse the "stepping stone" issue - possible future encroachment on early bow season?



They have already admitted that most could care less about the late archery season as, due to weather conditions and spooked deer and nocturnal movement, it's not much too be desired.

I did, for early archery season. That is my proposal.

The stepping stone issue is not up to me. It will be in the hands of the Wildlife Biologists to determine what will be the best thing to do. I can not control it. Just as I can not control what the state will do with the proposal. It is, simply put, a shot in the dark.

I don't belive in the "stepping stone" response. If it does not work out, the state will simply remove it from the season.

I do not control the laws and you should know that.

You know, this is just like the Ford Company announcement that their employees are not allowed to park their Chevy's or Dodge's in the Ford employee parking lot. They now have to park outside the fence and walk to work. The mentality of those who fight the crossbow is the same mentality of Ford Motor Company.

Hey, I have a Ford. Guess what? I'm going to sell it and buy me a Chevy. They both have motors and they take gas to run them.

Same thing with the crossbow vs. the compound.



My personal opinion of all this and this comes from one bowhunter to another. I wish they would put crossbows in EVERY season in EVERY state so that the whinners and moaners would have to just SHUT UP!






*
*********************************************************
NOTICE:

As the debate has pretty much ran it's course, at this time I would request that the Moderator step in and lock the thread. Let their be a review of the facts given by both sides and a winner announced, just for bragging rights for now. 

*********************************************************



***I hereby give BSBA 30 days from this day to reply with a statement to my proposal. After that, the proposal is withdrawn and we push for full and equal rights in any and all seasons for any and all wildlife allowed to be taken in the state of Louisiana.*** 



You can read how this story turns out over the next year or two. As we now are getting hand signed petitions in from residents of the State of Louisiana, almost exceeding 1000 just this past week since we started, we shall have a dump truck load by the end of this year. Since the NABC says the public has no intrest in crossbow, we the public take it upon ourselves to prove to our State Representitives that we, as a whole, have intrest in the use of crossbows in this great state we know as Louisiana!

GEAUX TIGERS GEAUX!!!!!!! 



As they say on TV, it's been real and it's been fun but it ain't been real fun so, we will see you in the Funny Papers. :wink:

progers over and out................*


----------



## cro

geaux tigers


----------



## Jim C

thesource said:


> Ahhhh - claiming victory, again. No one does that better than you, Jim.
> 
> You did not sufficiently justify your position, You should finish answering my questions before you start asking more of your own. You have not backed up your claims that 1) the federal gov defines a crossbow as a bow 2) Leading organizations (that matter - meaning hunting) define a crossbow as a bow and 3) Most states define a crossbow as a bow.
> 
> I am especially interested in seeing you try to wiggle out #3 - please don't continue to disappoint me by dodging the issue yet again.
> 
> 
> Before I even address how a crossbow would negatively impact me or bowhunting, I need to be convinced that crossbows actually belong there.


the coward's way you take-everyone sees the pathetic sophistry you engage in-if i could convince you crossbows would belong there you would no longer believe they negatively impact archery seasons-

you were asked this question a year ago and never answered it so stop the games, stop the evasion and stop the lies source

I have already told you ad nauseum-like equipment should be treated alike

now step up to the plate or be branded a


----------



## BigBirdVA

thesource said:


> Don't worry - no one considers you a bowhunter anymore.


I would rather not be considered a bowhunter by a few wacked out whiners on here, than to be labeled another greedy hunter by many. Then again we all know how you resort to personal remarks when faced with a valid and correct point in the xbow debate. It's a good indicator of how close to the *X* I hit. :wink: 



thesource said:


> You say this - but you can't prove it. Unfortunately, I cannot prove its wrong, either. If we could get at hunter harvest rates, or especially hunter harvest rates/hours hunted, then and only then could we start to look at meaningful statistics and determine if your hypothesis of xbow = compound is true.
> 
> Based on the early VA harvest rates, its NOT true in your home state. Crossbow hunters had a harvest rate over 2X that of bow hunters. But, again, and to be fair, we would need to understand the hours hunted part of the equation to draw conclusions.


As you state hours and such need to be figured to get an accurate % number of who did what. I bought both archery licenses last year. I didn't hunt with a compound at all. How many more did that? Purchase of a license isn't going to tell squat. Again if xbow hunters in VA. did harvest that well then it would be far and above all known figures. I doubt that was in any way close to reality.
From what I personally saw was this. Hunters switching weapons and taking the same number of deer. The xbow hunters didn't do any better overall. I would imagine the numbers in VA. to follow along that line. Just as they do in every other place they're used. Again we have unlimited deer in VA. to shoot. (does on private land) with a 3 buck limit spread across all weapons. So how does it hurt who takes what with a particular weapon? Hint .... it doesn't matter. I would rather see deer taken by hunters in any method than shot with damage permits by farmers and left to rot in the fields. Quite a number of these permits are given due to the overpopulation in certain areas.


----------



## Jim C

thesource said:


> Don't worry - no one considers you a bowhunter anymore.


I do-therefore you are a liar-in fact I suspect most of us do so that makes you twice the liar





thesource said:


> You say this - but you can't prove it. Unfortunately, I cannot prove its wrong, either. If we could get at hunter harvest rates, or especially hunter harvest rates/hours hunted, then and only then could we start to look at meaningful statistics and determine if your hypothesis of xbow = compound is true.
> 
> Based on the early VA harvest rates, its NOT true in your home state. Crossbow hunters had a harvest rate over 2X that of bow hunters. But, again, and to be fair, we would need to understand the hours hunted part of the equation to draw conclusions.


again, how does this concern you? you have yet to explain how what someone else uses bothers you given that 30 years in ohio have shown no superiority of a crossbow over a compound bow


----------



## thesource

progers said:


> *********************************************************
> NOTICE:
> 
> As the debate has pretty much ran it's course, at this time I would request that the Moderator step in and lock the thread. Let their be a review of the facts given by both sides and a winner announced, just for bragging rights for now.
> 
> *********************************************************



Why bother? He's already made crystal clear which side he is on. You are only fooling yourselves. 




progers said:


> ***I hereby give BSBA 30 days from this day to reply with a statement to my proposal. After that, the proposal is withdrawn and we push for full and equal rights in any and all seasons for any and all wildlife allowed to be taken in the state of Louisiana.
> *********************************************************


You never intended to compromise anyway .... you are a farce. 

I saw 23 names on your petition from LA, the rest from out of state. I do not think you have as strong a position as you think. However, as been proven in the recent past, consent is not required for crossbow legalization. Money talks.... what's your take, p? You gotta buck or two in here somewhere? I generally find that the pusher has a financial interest in crossbows. What's yours?


----------



## thesource

BigBirdVA said:


> I would rather not be considered a bowhunter by a few wacked out whiners on here, than to be labeled another greedy hunter by many


You get your wish, all though your proportions are mistaken.



BigBirdVA said:


> As you state hours and such need to be figured to get an accurate % number of who did what.





BigBirdVA said:


> The xbow hunters didn't do any better overall. I would imagine the numbers in VA. to follow along that line. Just as they do in every other place they're used.


Which is it? Do we need the data or do we just take your word for it?


----------



## thesource

Jim C said:


> 30 years in ohio have shown no superiority of a crossbow over a compound bow



You do not have the DATA to draw the conclusion.

You may be a good lawyer (who knows?), but you would make a crappy scientist!


----------



## Jim C

thesource said:


> You do not have the DATA to draw the conclusion.
> 
> You may be a good lawyer (who knows?), but you would make a crappy scientist!



and you are clearly unlearned in the sport and science of archery

people have been watching and studying bow hunting in ohio for years-not one person has claimed xbows are harvesting deer at a statisically higher rate than compounds

if they did, the putrid PBS would claim that

they don't

we are still waiting for you to grow a pair and tell us why xbows are a threat to bowhunting that involves something more intelligent than the idiotic claim xbows aren't bows

BigBird Called it right-you all worry about the change -the change itself is what you fear, not that the change causes any harm


----------



## thesource

Jim C said:


> we are still waiting for you to grow a pair and tell us why xbows are a threat to bowhunting that involves something more intelligent than the idiotic claim xbows aren't bows



I call bullcrap. Don't you DARE demand anything of me until you have provided the information you said you would.

Where is the fed's definition - why does the USFWS not allow xbows?

Provide the HUNTING organizations that support stringguns as bows....your sissy target orgs don't count.

Prove your statement that MOST states DEFINE crossbows as bows.


or........Shut up. Noone wants to see you puff up your chest and try to bully anyone for the 10,000th time.

YOU grow some and provide the information you promised....


----------



## Jim C

thesource said:


> I call bullcrap. Don't you DARE demand anything of me until you have provided the information you said you would.
> 
> Where is the fed's definition - why does the USFWS not allow xbows?
> 
> Provide the HUNTING organizations that support stringguns as bows....your sissy target orgs don't count.
> 
> Prove your statement that MOST states DEFINE crossbows as bows.
> 
> 
> or........Shut up. Noone wants to see you puff up your chest and try to bully anyone for the 10,000th time.
> 
> YOU grow some and provide the information you promised....


You are an evasive prevaricator-and your pathetic attempt to avoid answering the question proves that everything doug k has said about you is true

You are clearly showing your pathologies with your idiotic claims that a crossbow isn't a bow and we have demonstrated that you are clearly an anti hunting troll

You are too cowardly to even tell us your fixation with spending 1500 or so posts whining about crossbows. I know why you do-you have psychological issues that are purely internal

we all know it

you have yet to post a single comment that is even remotely helpful to other archers

its probably because you are not an archer and have nothing of value to share


----------



## thesource

Your personal attacks are pathetic and repulsive.

If you have nothing of value to add to the thread, why don't you go away?

You cannot follow up your overreaching claims to prove the crossbow is a bow and now you feel stupid.

*Cowboy up, admit it, wipe the egg off your face, and move on!*


----------



## Jim C

thesource said:


> Your personal attacks are pathetic and repulsive.
> 
> If you have nothing of value to add to the thread, why don't you go away?
> 
> You cannot follow up your overreaching claims to prove the crossbow is a bow and now you feel stupid.
> 
> *Cowboy up, admit it, wipe the egg off your face, and move on!*



Cross BOW-there that is all the proof that is needed-its called a CROSS BOW

it is part of the NAA, the IBO, the NFAA and the ATA

they only have contests for BOWS

now tell us what causes your fixation Source


----------



## thesource

Aaaaackkkkk!

glue guns, grease guns - are they guns?

Please don't revert.

By the way, have you ever noticed that ALL of the same defenses you use to support xbow in archery season could also be used to support gay couples in marriage?

Should have the right to choose, what harm does a gay couple 4 blocks over possibly have on your marriage, blah, blah, blah.

Personally, I couldn't approve of gay marriage because I feel it could damage the instution of marriage. I do not approve of crossbows because I feel they could damage the institution of bowhunting.

You must be a flaming left winger to support either!


----------



## Jim C

thesource said:


> Aaaaackkkkk!
> 
> glue guns, grease guns - are they guns?
> 
> Please don't revert.
> 
> By the way, have you ever noticed that ALL of the same defenses you use to support xbow in archery season could also be used to support gay couples in marriage?
> 
> Should have the right to choose, what harm does a gay couple 4 blocks over possibly have on your marriage, blah, blah, blah.
> 
> Personally, I couldn't approve of gay marriage because I feel it could damage the instution of marriage. I do not approve of crossbows because I feel they could damage the institution of bowhunting.
> 
> You must be a flaming left winger to support either!


nice diversion -now tell us how archery hunting is hurt when one form of bow is replaced with another

70 years ago bowhunting was done with wood arrows and self bows

then fiberglass laminations were added
Dacron replaced linen
Aluminum arrows became popular
recurve bows became dominant
then we had fiberglass arrows
then the compound came along-and "traditional bows" almost became extinct in hunting
then the mechanical release dominated bowhunting
now crossbows are becoming more and more popular

do you have the intestinal fortitude to tell us why this change-which continues to happen is bad

Is a society better off if people kill deer with high tec compounds versus crossbows?

did the soul of the nation take a hit when mechanical releases became prevalent?

Is God angry that real wood arrows kill far less deer than aluminum or carbon

is MOther Nature livid that mechanical broadheads are now legal in almost every state

there must be a reason for your pathological hatred of crossbows that is caused by something other than the misguided and pigheaded belief that a cross*BOW* in not a Bow


----------



## thesource

Jim C said:


> 70 years ago bowhunting was done with wood arrows and self bows
> 
> then fiberglass laminations were added
> Dacron replaced linen
> Aluminum arrows became popular
> recurve bows became dominant
> then we had fiberglass arrows
> then the compound came along-and "traditional bows" almost became extinct in hunting
> then the mechanical release dominated bowhunting


All about BOWS





Jim C said:


> now crossbows are becoming more and more popular


OOPS .... now you switched to a crossbow. You changed the subject!





Jim C said:


> Is a society better off if people kill deer with high tec compounds versus crossbows?


Dumbest question ever.....ever! Is society better off if people kill deer with a .300 WSM? An inline? A spear?

IRRELEVANT. Absolutely irrelevant. The impact on society is irrelevant...stop trying to make crossbows into the civil rights of the decade.


C'mon lefty .... how are crossbow rights different from gay rights? You lived in Ithaca....give us the scoop.


----------



## Jim C

thesource said:


> All about BOWS
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> OOPS .... now you switched to a crossbow. You changed the subject!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dumbest question ever.....ever! Is society better off if people kill deer with a .300 WSM? An inline? A spear?
> 
> IRRELEVANT. Absolutely irrelevant. The impact on society is irrelevant...stop trying to make crossbows into the civil rights of the decade.
> 
> 
> C'mon lefty .... how are crossbow rights different from gay rights? You lived in Ithaca....give us the scoop.



so your entire fixation-your obsession is based on the idiotic belief a crossbow isn't a bow and you are too cowardly to admit that your whining is due to something other than a semantic argument that most people and the most relevant organizations believe you are wrong on

NOTE-a bow that is a bow for target events does not cease to be a BOW in a hunting setting

It might not be suitable for hunting (like a genesis NASP bow or a 25 pound youth olympic recurve) but its still a bow

a crossbow is a bow in an NAA tournament, the Atlantic classic or the Vegas shoot. It doesn't cease to be a bow because outcome based excluders say its not

You claim bowhunting is hurt-and yet you don't have the stones to say why

I say it isnt' hurt and I have 30 years of experience, and proof on my side

what do you have source-a pathetic claim that a bow isn't a bow with no other argument, no other facts, and no logic supporting you


----------



## thesource

YOU won't give me the "facts."

You have not proven that the US government defines the crossbow as a bow - in fact, the hunting applications would refute your claim.

You use NAA and IBO to determine a crossbow's status - but these are not hunting organizations. In fact, the preeminent bowhunting organization, Pope&Young Club, says the exact opposite of what you imply.

You cannot produce the evidence that would support your claim that most states define a crossbow as a bow. In fact, even OHIO defines the two differently.

PROVE to me that "most people and the most relevant organizations believe" it is a bow. Most people means most, Jim. Show me the DATA. Relevant organizations, in this case, means HUNTING organizations, since we are discussing the appropriateness of crossbows for bowhunting. I have 72 hunting organizations that say YOU ARE WRONG, Show me what you got.

You have 30 years of NOTHING on your side. Archery competitions are not hunting. Ohio is not the nation. You have NO proof that crossbows belong.

You are wrong, plain and simple. Doctari - those are some anti crossbow FACTS for you.


----------



## BigBirdVA

thesource said:


> YOU won't give me the "facts."


You can't handle the facts.
No where xbows have been allowed have they had to be restricted in any way because of their ability to over harvest deer. If they aren't doing that then all other points are moot. Hunting is recreation. Get over it and focus on something you might be able to win. You're out of your league on this one.
Try the animal rights groups. People you have something in common with. Another illogical emotionally based argument full of idiots that can't be reasoned with. You should feel right at home with them.


----------



## thesource

What a loser reply....

Let Jim get off the ropes by himself, if he can.

Your changing the subject to harvest rates (where you know no data exists)and away from the fundamental issue of whether or not crossbows BELONG in bow season in the first place is an obvious diversion.

Let the dust settle where it may....


----------



## thesource

BigBirdVA said:


> Try the animal rights groups. People you have something in common with. Another illogical emotionally based argument full of idiots that can't be reasoned with. You should feel right at home with them.



This has become the standard response of ethically challenged hunters nationwide.

Baiting, high fences, 70 yard shots - if you disagree, you must be an antihunter. Pathetic. Take a long look in the mirror - hunting means more than just finding an easier way to kill a deer.


----------



## Jim C

thesource said:


> What a loser reply....
> 
> Let Jim get off the ropes by himself, if he can.
> 
> Your changing the subject to harvest rates (where you know no data exists)and away from the fundamental issue of whether or not crossbows BELONG in bow season in the first place is an obvious diversion.
> 
> Let the dust settle where it may....



I don't need to get off the ropes

I can honestly tell people my position

I don't have to lie
I don't have to evade
I don't have to divert
I don't have to resort to moronic semantic arguments

people want to use crossbows in archery season
the duty is upon you to prove that allowing such use is detrimental

You cannot

rather than try to you cowardly yap that crossbows aren't bows

When we ask you what the harm is in treating a crossbow the same as a compound bow rather than answer-you scream about gay rights or 300 magnums or retreat to "its not a bow" stupidity

or you demand people answer irrelevant questions that have only an ancillary connection to the real one-what is wrong with allowing free americans the CHOICE to use another type of arrow launching device that has actually been around alot longer than the compound bow and which HAS NEVER BEEN PROVEN to OVERHARVEST deer

if you can't figure out how idiotic your arguments look to objective people-you truly need some help


----------



## Jim C

thesource said:


> YOU won't give me the "facts."
> 
> You have not proven that the US government defines the crossbow as a bow - in fact, the hunting applications would refute your claim.
> 
> You use NAA and IBO to determine a crossbow's status - but these are not hunting organizations. In fact, the preeminent bowhunting organization, Pope&Young Club, says the exact opposite of what you imply.
> 
> You cannot produce the evidence that would support your claim that most states define a crossbow as a bow. In fact, even OHIO defines the two differently.
> 
> PROVE to me that "most people and the most relevant organizations believe" it is a bow. Most people means most, Jim. Show me the DATA. Relevant organizations, in this case, means HUNTING organizations, since we are discussing the appropriateness of crossbows for bowhunting. I have 72 hunting organizations that say YOU ARE WRONG, Show me what you got.
> 
> You have 30 years of NOTHING on your side. Archery competitions are not hunting. Ohio is not the nation. You have NO proof that crossbows belong.
> 
> You are wrong, plain and simple. Doctari - those are some anti crossbow FACTS for you.


I don't consider the P&Y preeminent-who made them that? You- IBO has more members, NFAA has more members. How many members does P&Y have>

You do realize that they had nothing to do with the establishment of archery hunting seasons-they didn't even exist until 1961-they came from a committee of the NFAA in 1957. Now the organization that served as their creator recognizes crossbows as part of archery.

I don't have to prove crossbows belong any more than I have to prove that compounds belong-its your duty to prove they don't and tell us why your inane and assinine concepts of bowhunting ought to dictate what others do in a recreational activity.

You have to be able to articulate a reason and your cowardly failure to do so is signs of serious denial on your part


----------



## BigBirdVA

thesource said:


> This has become the standard response of ethically challenged hunters nationwide.
> 
> Baiting, high fences, 70 yard shots - if you disagree, you must be an antihunter. Pathetic. Take a long look in the mirror - hunting means more than just finding an easier way to kill a deer.


"They don't belong" has become the answer of the intellectually challenged. Other than personal reasons no data exists showing otherwise. The Kentucky survey said it all. NO ONE CARES! Is that really so hard? Must be for you. The states keep dropping one by one yet you still can't accept it.
Every time the word xbow pops up on AT source is there for the same lame rebuttal. And the more they're accepted the more obsessive you get. The mods just need to put you in time out as your obvious obsession isn't normal.


----------



## thesource

BigBirdVA said:


> The mods just need to put you in time out as your obvious obsession isn't normal.



That's funny. I've seen you take this tact with everyone you disagree with, even a harmless comedien on the bowhunting forum named poopen young. If they disagree with you, you want them banned!

Pathetic.


----------



## thesource

Jim C said:


> I don't need to get off the ropes
> 
> I can honestly tell people my position
> 
> I don't have to lie


 Yet, you have.



Jim C said:


> I don't have to evade


 Yet, you do



Jim C said:


> I don't have to divert


 It is your trademark maneuver



Jim C said:


> I don't have to resort to moronic semantic arguments


 You use semantics to claim others are lieing constantly.



Jim C said:


> people want to use crossbows in archery season
> the duty is upon you to prove that allowing such use is detrimental


People want to use many implements in bowseason, crossbows being only one. YOU need to prove they belong there.

You haven't. You can't. Instead, you use semantics, diversions, and evasion to reinforce your misrepresentations about crossbows versus compounds.

Answer my questions, Jim. Prove crossbows belong. Don't wimp out on us now.....


----------



## cro

i want to know why i can hunt with a xbow during archery season with my handicapp license but if its not a bow why would they let me use it instead of a rifle? i feel that the goverment must feel that it must me a BOW.:zip:


----------



## thesource

Jim C said:


> I don't consider the P&Y preeminent-who made them that? You- IBO has more members, NFAA has more members. How many members does P&Y have>


HUNTING organizations, Jim.....HUNTING.

This is about HUNTING seasons and HUNTING equipment, in case you didn't notice.

Who is the preeminent bowhunting organization? You've got to be kidding .... there is absolutely NO arguement. We can take a poll on the bowhunting forum, if you would like, but you already know what the answer is.

The Pope and Young Club ..... period.


Of course, you have the ACF....ha ha ha.


----------



## thesource

cro said:


> i want to know why i can hunt with a xbow during archery season with my handicapp license but if its not a bow why would they let me use it instead of a rifle? i feel that the goverment must feel that it must me a BOW.:zip:


The state waives the equipment restrictions in some cases for the physically challenged....and that's a good thing. I am always inspired by those who find a way to overcome life's hardships and continue doing what they love to do.

But the very fact that crossbows are useful for such instances proves they are otherwise advantaged. Special circumstances require special measures.


----------



## Jim C

DougK said:


> More nonsense from the unlearned one. The ATF do not define a grease gun as a firearm..
> 
> No grease gun maker is a member of the ISSF..
> 
> No gun manufacturer makes grease guns...
> 
> this guy isn't even a sportsman...and anti hunter..


BB sort of summed up the source

I think we all know why source cannot ever post a fact supporting his blather

the best he does it quotes the opinions of fellow crossbow hating bigots like Pope and Young and its pitiful conspiracy against fellow hunters known as the NABC

if most gun hunters were to hear what Pope and Young says about them they would petition these game departments to wipe out bow season

it doesn't help us to have groups pretending to represent bowhunting spending so much time slandering gun hunters


----------



## Jim C

thesource said:


> The state waives the equipment restrictions in some cases for the physically challenged....and that's a good thing. I am always inspired by those who find a way to overcome life's hardships and continue doing what they love to do.
> 
> But the very fact that crossbows are useful for such instances proves they are otherwise advantaged. Special circumstances require special measures.



gee so I would be advantaged wearing a false leg or a using a wheelchair to climb a tree

can you prove a crossbow-has an advantage over a compound for all bowhunters

of course you cannot


----------



## cro

thesource said:


> The state waives the equipment restrictions in some cases for the physically challenged....and that's a good thing. I am always inspired by those who find a way to overcome life's hardships and continue doing what they love to do.
> 
> But the very fact that crossbows are useful for such instances proves they are otherwise advantaged. Special circumstances require special measures.


I am trying to find out how you think because my crossbow weighs almost 8 pounds and if you are a hunter you would think that the less weight you would have to carry the better. have you ever tried to take a second shoot from 25 ft up in a tree with a crossbow? i would think that if the state wants to help out with some restrictions why not let me use my muzzleloader its lighter, are my 243 its lighter and i can get a second shot off without maybe having to climb all the way down to try to reload a ARROW. i just want to see if you thought of a few other things about the xbow that its not a advantage in everyone's eyes. i don't want to start up a whole war of words with you are anyone else here but maybe you need to go and make a hunt with someone who is handicapped and see if them having a crossbow gives them a advantage. i use to hunt with a compound bow and i loved it but you still have to get in your stand the same time as everyone else and stay still and scent free and move you BOW in the direction of the animal your about to harvest and MAKE THE ARROW COUNT. i think that i have made my self clear i hope to you and the others but i'll be around and when i have enough i'll just chime in.


----------



## thesource

Jim -

As expected....

You cannot back up your loud mouthed claims that the federal government, hunting organizations, and states define the crossbow as a bow.

Instead we will be forced to endure a myriad of tangents from you and the incessant grinding noises of your lackey, Doug.

Let me know when you are ready to engage in this debate on a meaningful level, Jim...


----------



## Jim C

thesource said:


> As expected....
> 
> You cannot back up your loud mouthed claims that the federal government, hunting organizations, and states define the crossbow as a bow.
> 
> Instead we will be forced to endure a myriad of tangents from you and the incessant grinding noises of your lackey, Doug.
> 
> Let me know when you are ready to engage in this debate on a meaningful level, Jim...



1) your fixation on irrelevant tangents while ignoring the main issue is pathetic

you are playing games to avoid answering the only thing that matters-how does treating a crossbow the same as a compound cause any objective harm

since you ignore this we assume you know that you cannot answer it

2) the federal government has various rules involving firearms-they don't apply to the crossbow-end of story

when someone fixates on irrelevancies while ignoring the main issue it proves you realize that an honest answer will doom your position

3) you keep demanding I answer recently posed questions and play silly high school girl games of not answering a question I posed to you when you first crawled on this board because I won't answer-to your subjective satisfaction-idiotic questions that have no real relevance to this issue

Doug is correct, I suspect you are a PETA member


----------



## BigBirdVA

thesource said:


> That's funny. I've seen you take this tact with everyone you disagree with, even a harmless comedien on the bowhunting forum named poopen young. If they disagree with you, you want them banned!
> 
> Pathetic.


There is a difference in a disagreement and obsessive compulsive behavior. As expected you're not capable of seeing the difference. Most mentally ill people haven't a clue.

Here's part of the definition of OCD.


> "In OCD, it is as though the brain gets stuck on a particular thought or urge and just can't let go. People with OCD often say the symptoms feel like a case of mental hiccups that won't go away. OCD is a medical brain disorder that causes problems in information processing. It is not your fault or the result of a "weak" or unstable personality."


All that's missing is your pic.


----------



## BigBirdVA

DougK said:


> Source deserves our pity


And a good ol' spot on everyones ignore list.


----------



## doctariAFC

And on that note, we shall close this thread, in a few days, a new thread shall be launched detailing the winner of this debate, with a poll for folks to also express their opinion as to who won.


----------

