# Levi Morgan, Grip pressure and why it leads to forgiveness >------------------------>



## ontarget7 (Dec 30, 2009)

*Levi Morgan, Grip pressure and why it leads to forgiveness >------------------------>*

With all the talk about Levi Morgan going to Elite I figured i would bring this up. When You get a chance look at the video http://vimeo.com/77996614 with him shooting the Elite bows you will notice his grip. Actually, look at both the shooters in the video at 5:30 into it. You will see more pressure being applied to the hand side of the life line opposed to the thumb side. I have noticed this when shooting most of your 2 track binary bows. Here is another video of Levi Morgan shooting the Mathews http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AttiMSlsz70 and at 3:03 into the video look at his grip, it is more thumb side pressure to the life line of your hand. It looks like he is already getting used to the grip pressure that gives him the most forgiveness with the Elite bows. 

Anyways you have probably seen some of my post referring to this in the past and felt this is a perfect example to look at. This will definitely help give you a visual of what I have referred to before. I feel it is very important to learn the right grip pressure of a certain bow manufacture to get the most forgiveness out of them. With out mastering this it is very hard to achieve perfect and forgiving arrow flight regardless how you try and tune it. This is why I have become a believer of figuring out the different manufactures grips and the right grip pressure needed for them. Apposed to tuning the bow to the shooter because in some cases it will not ever give you the best results. I tune so many different bows and have noticed this first hand when trying to achieve that perfect arrow flight. No matter what I do with some bows I cannot tune the bow to achieve this when staying with a certain grip. I have to tune me the shooter to match what that bow requires and in the end it will give you the best tuned and forgiving set up possible.

Figured it would make for a good topic to discuss


Shane


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## Belicoso (Aug 22, 2006)

So tuning bows for some else could , only be done till a specific point.
That not a shout at you at all dont get me wrong, just my opinion.


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## ontarget7 (Dec 30, 2009)

Not to computer savvy, wondering if anybody could help copy those 2 images in the videos and post them up to see the visual of the grips. This would make it easier for those to see it in the thread

Thanks
Shane


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## ontarget7 (Dec 30, 2009)

Belicoso said:


> So tuning bows for some else could , only be done till a specific point.
> That not a shout at you at all dont get me wrong, just my opinion.


Honestly, this is why i feel I have very good success with a wide range of bows when tuning. Learning the different grips is huge and very much overlooked. We generally like to be comfortable and stick with what feels good to us. Sometimes this might not always be whats best and give you the best forgiveness. I feel this is why some people shoot certain bows better than others. This is also why i feel the Hooter Shooter does not always do a tune justice and the reason why I don't use one.


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## nhns4 (Sep 25, 2010)

Belicoso said:


> So tuning bows for some else could , only be done till a specific point.
> That not a shout at you at all dont get me wrong, just my opinion.


Id agree. You can shoot my bow and get a different paper tear than I could.


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## TimmyZ7 (Aug 11, 2010)




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## ontarget7 (Dec 30, 2009)

nhns4 said:


> Id agree. You can shoot my bow and get a different paper tear than I could.


Keep in mind a perfect tear in paper doesn't necessarily mean you are in tune either. I can do that with just about any spine at a certain distance. It's finding that right grip pressure that will yield you the most forgiving flight. Of coarse tune and spine being a given.


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## TimmyZ7 (Aug 11, 2010)

The best I could do snapping shots off the vid with my iphone


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## ontarget7 (Dec 30, 2009)

TimmyZ7 said:


> The best I could do snapping shots off the vid with my iphone


Thanks bro ! I think the one on the left is after the shot.


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## Inc. (Jul 5, 2013)

I see Levi shooting from high in the thumb pocket on both bows, the elite is being shot from the thumb side for sure , the difference to me is his hand is closer to vertical in the elite grip , which means the bows grip is running down the length of the shelf created by the lifeline. Ie more hand in the bow.
Yes I agree dual cams can set flatter in the hand , in fact they are the most forgiving in regards to hand placement. 
Help me understand how you are seeing more pressure on the palm side ? Not saying there is not just don't see it .
If you are saying there is more hand in the bow , yes I see it .
The point that both archers are ha dealing the grip in the same man e says something for sure


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## Inc. (Jul 5, 2013)

The Sid by side still is amazing , almost identical in form - Levi is a tad more open in the legs


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## TimmyZ7 (Aug 11, 2010)

Last try hopefully this helps


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## ontarget7 (Dec 30, 2009)

Inc. said:


> I see Levi shooting from high in the thumb pocket on both bows, the elite is being shot from the thumb side for sure , the difference to me is his hand is closer to vertical in the elite grip , which means the bows grip is running down the length of the shelf created by the lifeline. Ie more hand in the bow.
> Yes I agree dual cams can set flatter in the hand , in fact they are the most forgiving in regards to hand placement.
> Help me understand how you are seeing more pressure on the palm side ? Not saying there is not just don't see it .
> If you are saying there is more hand in the bow , yes I see it .
> The point that both archers are ha dealing the grip in the same man e says something for sure


I guess I might have worded that wrong. More to left side with hand out in front of you. So yes more hand side. I don't really feel the dual cams are more forgiving to grip at all. Each cam system IMO from testing will require a certain grip for the ultimate in forgiveness in arrow flight.


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## OCHO505 (May 27, 2010)

ontarget7 said:


> I guess I might have worded that wrong. More to left side with hand out in front of you. So yes more hand side. I don't really feel the dual cams are more forgiving to grip at all. Each cam system IMO from testing will require a certain grip for the ultimate in forgiveness in arrow flight.


I do the same with my Destroyer! When I go to the thumb side it seams like the stabs (side bar) in particular go from keeping the bow steady to acting as a torque steering wheel.

I definetly worked on this for a long time and find when I hold for long extended amounts of time, I make sure I stay soft hands and on the left side a with pressure and this has helped me almost eliminate torque.


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## ElkFetish (Aug 12, 2007)

This is interesting. I have spent a bunch of time this year trying to figure out the right grip for my bow. The reason I started this project is because I have the bow tuned perfectly and it shoots very well, shooting broadheads and field points to the same point. This is the way I tune my bows because it is so easy, quick and gets me shooting bullets if I go back and papertune so now it is all I do. But what I did notice is that I got a bit of a kick in the bow and arrow depending on different grip changes, even what felt like slight ones. Arrows still shot together but the POI changed and I could see the kick in the arrow and feel the kick to the side in the bow. So I started messing around and figured out that this particular bow likes more pressure on the finger side of the bow. Neutral or thumb heavy and I get a kick regardless of the tune. 

So the argument that you are making that binary type cam bows need more finger side pressure to compensate for the way they sinc together and transfer energy? I think there may be some real validity to this.

Scot E.


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## ontarget7 (Dec 30, 2009)

OCHO505 said:


> I do the same with my Destroyer! When I go to the thumb side it seams like the stabs (side bar) in particular go from keeping the bow steady to acting as a torque steering wheel.
> 
> I definetly worked on this for a long time and find when I hold for long extended amounts of time, I make sure I stay soft hands and on the left side a with pressure and this has helped me almost eliminate torque.


I feel torque in archery is a touching subject when it comes to ones grip. As soon as you say you are torquing the bow most are so quick to say they don't. For me torquing the bow at the grip is very easy to do and really requires more attention when it comes to forgiveness in arrow flight. Each bow manufacture has a sweet spot and finding that is crucial to optimizing the forgiveness of your set up


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## Jose Boudreaux (Oct 18, 2003)

ontarget7 said:


> I feel torque in archery is a touching subject when it comes to ones grip. As soon as you say you are torquing the bow most are so quick to say they don't. For me torquing the bow at the grip is very easy to do and really requires more attention when it comes to forgiveness in arrow flight. Each bow manufacture has a sweet spot and finding that is crucial to optimizing the forgiveness of your set up


I naturally torque bows so bad I need a wide enough grip to get that part of my hand under the pinky FULLY on the handle on 99% of the bows, to offset the torque....my radius and ulna twist ALOT upon extension....


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## ontarget7 (Dec 30, 2009)

ElkFetish said:


> This is interesting. I have spent a bunch of time this year trying to figure out the right grip for my bow. The reason I started this project is because I have the bow tuned perfectly and it shoots very well, shooting broadheads and field points to the same point. This is the way I tune my bows because it is so easy, quick and gets me shooting bullets if I go back and papertune so now it is all I do. But what I did notice is that I got a bit of a kick in the bow and arrow depending on different grip changes, even what felt like slight ones. Arrows still shot together but the POI changed and I could see the kick in the arrow and feel the kick to the side in the bow. So I started messing around and figured out that this particular bow likes more pressure on the finger side of the bow. Neutral or thumb heavy and I get a kick regardless of the tune.
> 
> So the argument that you are making that binary type cam bows need more finger side pressure to compensate for the way they sinc together and transfer energy? I think there may be some real validity to this.
> 
> Scot E.


I have definitely noticed to optimize the best possible forgiveness with a 2 track binary you need more hand side pressure and with a hybrid or single cam it generally will require more thumb side pressure.


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## Predator (Jan 18, 2003)

ontarget7 said:


> I have definitely noticed to optimize the best possible forgiveness with a 2 track binary you need more hand side pressure and with a hybrid or single cam it generally will require more thumb side pressure.


Shane, can you go a little deeper into what it is about the operation of the respective cam systems that causes this?


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## doulos (Apr 2, 2006)

Pretty interesting thread. I thought it was me and poor shooting form. But I definitely have to hold my Elite Pure more off of my thumb pad and more into the lifeline. When I hold more on my thumb I have tail right tears and broadheads always a bit left of field points. I always thought it was more bow tune but I think it was me and my grip. Squaring up my stance a little more as opposed to my front side being a bit open also seems to change grip pressure for me . If that makes sense


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## -bowfreak- (Oct 18, 2006)

I have never thought of differences in grip position as anything other than riser/grip design. I am not disputing your claim I just always assumed it was a function of riser design. 

This is one of the reasons why I think that switching bows all of the time is often detrimental to our shooting.


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## Inc. (Jul 5, 2013)

ontarget7 said:


> I guess I might have worded that wrong. More to left side with hand out in front of you. So yes more hand side. I don't really feel the dual cams are more forgiving to grip at all. Each cam system IMO from testing will require a certain grip for the ultimate in forgiveness in arrow flight.


By saying this , you do not subscribe to giving the bow and the tune " a direction " I assume ? 
What I am seeing is a very heavely sided bow , with the weight being on the left stab. This enables / causes the shooter to create a deeper pocket to shoot out of. 
For me a left heavy bow forces a directional grip ( clockwise ) which fights the natural uncoiling counter clockwise uncoiling of a sprung bow. Note Levi's thumb is holding a bit of tension , again creating a direction and a very nice shooting pocket - contrary to a lot of people ( and in accordance with the op ) completely flacid bow hand is not always the best solution ) 
The most important part ( in perhaps the entire shot ) is the ability to repeat the same frontal explosion off the bow. 

I am fairly certain we/ I have just put more thought into the entire process than Levi has.


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## ontarget7 (Dec 30, 2009)

Predator said:


> Shane, can you go a little deeper into what it is about the operation of the respective cam systems that causes this?


I believe it has to do with the 2 track cam and the amount of lean the cam system has. This is probably why hand side pressure/heal pressure varies from different manufactures of the 2 track system. The ones that have the most lean I find more hand side pressure needed. Then you have some where lean is so severe you really can't get very good lateral nock travel at all. 

I find anytime you have a yoke system and can control lateral nock travel by them, you will have more a thumb side grip. I believe this is also one of the main reasons why guys seem to have excessive pre lean in a hybrid cam system. When you shoot with more hand side pressure/heal pressure, I find you never really get true arrow flight. To compensate for this excessive pre lean is required to get it closer in tune. With that said I find it will never be true and clean with a bareshaft.


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## ontarget7 (Dec 30, 2009)

Inc. said:


> By saying this , you do not subscribe to giving the bow and the tune " a direction " I assume ?


What you are doing is finding that true direction so in a sense they go hand in hand. Each cam system is different and I just posted a little bit about that in my response to Predator


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

ontarget7 said:


> With all the talk about Levi Morgan going to Elite I figured i would bring this up. When You get a chance look at the video http://vimeo.com/77996614 with him shooting the Elite bows you will notice his grip. Actually, look at both the shooters in the video at 5:30 into it. You will see more pressure being applied to the hand side of the life line opposed to the thumb side. I have noticed this when shooting most of your 2 track binary bows.
> 
> Shane


Freeze frame of first video,
at 5:30 mark.


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## ontarget7 (Dec 30, 2009)

nuts&bolts said:


> Freeze frame of first video,
> at 5:30 mark.


Thanks 

Definitely a change to more heal/hand side pressure than before


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## Core Archery (Jun 26, 2011)

How about you just put your hand in the grip and mold your hand to the grip? then just relaxing hand once set in. Y add more thinking to it? Two tracks shoot better with a softer shot from my experience. Cam lean or no cam lean. It's about doing the same exact thing every time.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

ontarget7 said:


> Here is another video of Levi Morgan shooting the Mathews http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AttiMSlsz70 and at 3:03 into the video look at his grip, it is more thumb side pressure to the life line of your hand.
> 
> Shane


3:30 video freeze frame of the grip he uses on a Mathews.


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## ontarget7 (Dec 30, 2009)

Core Archery said:


> How about you just put your hand in the grip and mold your hand to the grip? then just relaxing hand once set in. Y add more thinking to it? Two tracks shoot better with a softer shot from my experience. Cam lean or no cam lean. It's about doing the same exact thing every time.


No more thinking involved, just what I have observed through lots of owning and tuning both systems.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

ontarget7 said:


> With all the talk about Levi Morgan going to Elite I figured i would bring this up. When You get a chance look at the video http://vimeo.com/77996614 with him shooting the Elite bows you will notice his grip. Actually, look at both the shooters in the video at 5:30 into it. You will see more pressure being applied to the hand side of the life line opposed to the thumb side. I have noticed this when shooting most of your 2 track binary bows. Here is another video of Levi Morgan shooting the Mathews http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AttiMSlsz70 and at 3:03 into the video look at his grip, it is more thumb side pressure to the life line of your hand. It looks like he is already getting used to the grip pressure that gives him the most forgiveness with the Elite bows.
> 
> Anyways you have probably seen some of my post referring to this in the past and felt this is a perfect example to look at. This will definitely help give you a visual of what I have referred to before. I feel it is very important to learn the right grip pressure of a certain bow manufacture to get the most forgiveness out of them. With out mastering this it is very hard to achieve perfect and forgiving arrow flight regardless how you try and tune it. This is why I have become a believer of figuring out the different manufactures grips and the right grip pressure needed for them. Apposed to tuning the bow to the shooter because in some cases it will not ever give you the best results. I tune so many different bows and have noticed this first hand when trying to achieve that perfect arrow flight. No matter what I do with some bows I cannot tune the bow to achieve this when staying with a certain grip. I have to tune me the shooter to match what that bow requires and in the end it will give you the best tuned and forgiving set up possible.
> 
> ...


Here you go.
A side by side.

*I must say,
I agree with Shane 100%.*

ONE small caveat.

I only train folks in grip position,
the FINE tuning of bow hand technique,
at the more ADVANCED levels.


*SIDE pressure on the thumb of the bow hand,
can make a NEXT LEVEL jump in accuracy.*


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

Core Archery said:


> How about you just put your hand in the grip and mold your hand to the grip? then just relaxing hand once set in. Y add more thinking to it? Two tracks shoot better with a softer shot from my experience. Cam lean or no cam lean. It's about doing the same exact thing every time.


Not quite that simple.

I have carved solid wood grips,
for ONE of my students...

where I am trying to adjust the the position of the bow hand,
changing the alignment, (directional groove for the bow hand thumb so it FITS in only ONE SPOT on the grip)
changing pressure points (high and low spots on the custom grip)

kinda like a front end alignment, but for a race car.

If you take a look at Bullseye Pistol grips,
then,
you get a better idea of the WHYS and HOWS for custom grips....
to better align the forces, when the pistol fires
to the bow hand grip reaction is aligned with the direction you want your projectile to fly.

A hand carved wooden compound bow grip is sooooo much work,
I have only built two....so far.

Grinding and carving for comfort
AND
to fix the bow reaction
and the shooter follow through reaction....

so you get BETTER arrow grouping results....
mostly fixing sideways arrow group size.


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## Q2DEATH (May 12, 2003)

Does the grip position look different because of the camera angles or is it really different?


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## ontarget7 (Dec 30, 2009)

Q2DEATH said:


> Does the grip position look different because of the camera angles or is it really different?


Definitely different.


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## Inc. (Jul 5, 2013)

ontarget7 said:


> What you are doing is finding that true direction so in a sense they go hand in hand. Each cam system is different and I just posted a little bit about that in my response to Predator


Yes sir , came up while I was pecking on the phone between chores - ! 
I was quite sure we would be on the same page- 
Would I be correct in saying what you are referring to in the bow hand is a kin to the movement in a motorcycle throttle / getting " behind "the bow more ? A vertical twist almost 
- I on the other hand am referring to ( looking at )more of a clock wise rotation , starting at the shoulder and working thru the fingertips -


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## ron w (Jan 5, 2013)

the more "low wrist" the grip angle is, the more that pressure concentrates down where the hand meets the wrist (pad of the thumb area). when it is down this low the hand can be positioned so more thumb is round to that side of the bow's grip. it creates a much more "centralized" or "neutral", straight back through the center of the bow arm pressure path and is easier to get a fully relaxed hand out of, because it feels more secure, or "in contact" with the bow.
that's how I see it anyways.


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## Inc. (Jul 5, 2013)

nuts&bolts said:


> Freeze frame of first video,
> at 5:30 mark.



Levi's grip has changed zero after seeing that , ironic as it is ,still has the looks of the typical " heavy metal devils horns "


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## ontarget7 (Dec 30, 2009)

Inc. said:


> Levi's grip has changed zero after seeing that , ironic as it is ,still has the looks of the typical " heavy metal devils horns "


Definitely more heal IMO


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## Inc. (Jul 5, 2013)

ron w said:


> the more "low wrist" the grip angle is, the more that pressure concentrates down where the hand meets the wrist (pad of the thumb area). when it is down this low the hand can be positioned so more thumb is round to that side of the bow's grip. it creates a much more "centralized" or "neutral", straight back through the center of the bow arm pressure path and is easier to get a fully relaxed hand out of, because it feels more secure, or "in contact" with the bow.
> that's how I see it anyways.


The trend is to carry tension in the thumb / check out Team USAs thumbs , this is not by happens chance - Brady is a prime example


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## nhns4 (Sep 25, 2010)




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## deafcon2 (Sep 6, 2010)

He's in kill mode


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## nhns4 (Sep 25, 2010)

He sort of modified his grip a little.


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## ontarget7 (Dec 30, 2009)

nhns4 said:


> He sort of modified his grip a little.


Most do with the Elites. Its one thing I hope they have enough input on and change them in the future. 

Its funny because I have a very good friend that shoots the Elite bows extremely well because he has a more natural low wrist grip. You give him a hybrid cam bow and he is just to inconsistent. 

I can shoot most of them very well , just because i have tuned a wide range of them for awhile now. With that said, I do find myself more consistent with a med to high wrist grip position to the thumb side.


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## straight2it (Nov 30, 2010)

Ttt..


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## ontarget7 (Dec 30, 2009)

Look at the angle of his knuckles on the Elite bows, it is more vertical which in return would give you more of a low wrist grip. N&B did a little more research on this with pics so maybe he could elaborate a little more. Definitely confirms what I have seen from a tuning standpoint to get true arrow flight with them. 

Some might think I am thinking way to much into this but I really don't look at it like that at all. I really enjoy the technical side of things to get the truest arrow flight possible with each and every bow.


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## dukeofwails (Jan 10, 2011)

I have been dealing with this a LOT in the past 6 months. Nuts&bolts has been helping me too. What I've found is that the grip I use on my apex 7 ( more thumb side) simply doesn't work with my PSE dream season evo. 

Very VERY unforgiving, and inconsistent. I ended up making an acrylic addition to the grip to torque the bow clockwise a bit, but I was still not getting consistent results through paper tuning or out past 50 yards. 

I recently had to take off that addition and modify my grip to give it a bit more heel, low wrist, with bow hand turned counterclockwise. Now I'm shooting far better than before.


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## NEWYORKHILLBILLY (Nov 17, 2007)

Maybe the elite is his nature grip and he had modified his grip to shoot the Mathews.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

The freeze frames from the two separate video clips...

the ELITE photo, is a dead on straight camera angle...
the MATHEWS photo, is an oblique camera angle.


So,
I agree 100% with ontarget7.

To convince myself, I'm not crazy....

I took a photo of myself aiming my full frame DSLR
into the mirror,
with my bow arm at 90 degrees to the mirror.

Then,
I angled my bow arm
in an open stance, in relation to the mirror,
to simulate the MATHEWS pic of Levi,
and took a photo with my DSLR....

to explore the effects of camera angle
on the perceived grip angle of the bow hand.


So,
my conclusion
is that the ELITE photo,
Levi is using a more VERTICAL bow hand grip...

and

Levi is using a bow hand grip closer to 45 degrees
on the MATHEWS photo.


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## Inc. (Jul 5, 2013)

I concur, more heel and more " throttle " his middle and ring finger are coming around the grip more as well .
He is retaining the " devil horns as well.
Great call shane


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## NM_HighPlains (Nov 25, 2005)

ontarget7 said:


> You will see more pressure being applied to the hand side of the life line opposed to the thumb side.


when I had some questions about bare shaft tuning my Hoyts, you asked me to play with side pressure. I did, the bare shafts straightened right up and I've been shooting with a hair more bit pressure on the hand side than I used to do. When I do it right, the bow falls straight forward and when I have more on the palm, it swings to the left after release. It's a tiny little ol' thing that really amounts to more like "point the index finger knuckle at the target" as opposed to "point the thumb at the target". VERY small difference. Yet, it makes a significant different in my groups, esp at 50+ yards.


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## ontarget7 (Dec 30, 2009)

NM_HighPlains said:


> when I had some questions about bare shaft tuning my Hoyts, you asked me to play with side pressure. I did, the bare shafts straightened right up and I've been shooting with a hair more bit pressure on the hand side than I used to do. When I do it right, the bow falls straight forward and when I have more on the palm, it swings to the left after release. It's a tiny little ol' thing that really amounts to more like "point the index finger knuckle at the target" as opposed to "point the thumb at the target". VERY small difference. Yet, it makes a significant different in my groups, esp at 50+ yards.


I do remember that, glad it worked out for you :thumbs_up . It really doesn't take much but you are right about the long range shooting. Makes a huge difference in groups size


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

NM_HighPlains said:


> when I had some questions about bare shaft tuning my Hoyts, you asked me to play with side pressure. I did, the bare shafts straightened right up and I've been shooting with a hair more bit pressure on the hand side than I used to do. When I do it right, the bow falls straight forward and when I have more on the palm, it swings to the left after release. It's a tiny little ol' thing that really amounts to more like "point the index finger knuckle at the target" as opposed to "point the thumb at the target". VERY small difference. Yet, it makes a significant different in my groups, esp at 50+ yards.


EXCELLENT shooting.
Yes,
a very small shift in pressure.

For the OK DST 40 grip,
I need a slight shift in side pressure on the bow hand thumb,
a sideways SQUEEZE between the EDGE of the thumb and the grip.


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## Jesse Schultz (Sep 11, 2013)

That was one awesome sales add lol . Now Levis problem with the Matthews bow was the hold time what ? He cant hold the Matthews for 8 or 9 seconds but he can with this Elite ? Do some pushups eat some protein powder lol . I'm sure Elites sales go through the roof.


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

Another look at Levi's hand ---- Reading too much into nothing???? Different riser grip gives different look to same type hand grip???



TimmyZ7 said:


>


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## Core Archery (Jun 26, 2011)

It is different because the grips are different.


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## ontarget7 (Dec 30, 2009)

Core Archery said:


> It is different because the grips are different.


Yes they are different, you can shoot with the same grip with different bows but it doesn't necessarily mean it is the best choice for the most forgiveness. 

I have owned many Elites myself and they do indeed require different grip pressure to get the most out of them. For some it might feel natural, for others, that is not the case.


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## Hoytalpha35 (Apr 5, 2011)

Interesting info, I've always shot better with hoyt and PSE bows, I tend to use more high grip and thumb pressure without realizing. And my prime centroid did better with a low grip does that sound right? 

Also would torque tuning the bow for placement of arrow rest forward or back add some forgiveness in inconsistent grip pressure?


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

Hoytalpha35 said:


> Interesting info, I've always shot better with hoyt and PSE bows, I tend to use more high grip and thumb pressure without realizing. And my prime centroid did better with a low grip does that sound right?
> 
> Also would torque tuning the bow for placement of arrow rest forward or back add some forgiveness in inconsistent grip pressure?


Try it at 60 yards,
and see what happens.


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## Mathias (Mar 21, 2005)

Shane if you posted this _yesterday_, I might have kept my E35! You're an asset to this forum :thumbs_up


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## ontarget7 (Dec 30, 2009)

Hoytalpha35 said:


> Interesting info, I've always shot better with hoyt and PSE bows, I tend to use more high grip and thumb pressure without realizing. And my prime centroid did better with a low grip does that sound right?
> 
> Also would torque tuning the bow for placement of arrow rest forward or back add some forgiveness in inconsistent grip pressure?


Yep, the Centroid requires more of a lower wrist grip for best forgiveness. 

Rest position can aid in forgiveness but not even close in comparison to the right grip pressure to match the bow IMO.


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## ILOVE3D (Feb 4, 2009)

Tagged for later, thanks for all the information.


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## wv hoyt man (Feb 17, 2012)

good topic.


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## ontarget7 (Dec 30, 2009)

Mathias said:


> Shane if you posted this _yesterday_, I might have kept my E35! You're an asset to this forum :thumbs_up


Sorry bro, just figured this was a great way to point this out. Especially with Levi making the change to Elite. Really gave some good visual aid to help understand what I am referring to. 

Most of us don't give bows enough time to adapt to them. It is also hard to be discipline to make these changes or in most cases to even recognize they need to be made. Generally speaking we just pass it off as shooting certain brands better than others. 

Hopefully this helps shed some light to some that just don't understand why they cannot shoot a bow as good as brand X. 

Thanks bro
Shane


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## Mathias (Mar 21, 2005)

Good info. I don't have the patience to try and make something work for me,* one *of my faults. Frustration=classifieds.


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## ontarget7 (Dec 30, 2009)

Mathias said:


> Good info. I don't have the patience to try and make something work for me,* one *of my faults. Frustration=classifieds.


I completely understand . From my point of view I enjoy the tuning so much I need all the patience I can get .


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

Core Archery said:


> It is different because the grips are different.





ontarget7 said:


> Yes they are different, you can shoot with the same grip with different bows but it doesn't necessarily mean it is the best choice for the most forgiveness.
> 
> I have owned many Elites myself and they do indeed require different grip pressure to get the most out of them. For some it might feel natural, for others, that is not the case.


Once proper hand placement is learned you don't throw it away. It is used, period. What changes is nothing more than adjustment to the grip of the bow. 

Said is riser grip to the inside of the base thumb knuckle. Teeter on the knuckle, bow wiggle.
Said is to heal the grip. Gives eveness.
Said is to let the riser grip slip to where it won't slip (in at base of thumb knuckle and up to the riser shelf).
Result; Firm hand placement to the riser grip from the web between thumb and first knuckle of index finger, down and direct line off the heal of the hand.

Straight grip, though angled. Contoured (banana) grip. Thickness of and/or width (front to back). All may give a different look, but same grip applied.

No Ace here, but I've shoot different bows at the shop. I don't care what bow I use the same hand placement principle to the riser. Ancient wood risers with fence post grip to today's.
2X4 Mathews hunting bow grips, yeck, but good accuracy.
Hoyt ProElite, bare metal, nice.
Martin Shadowcat, bare metal, nice.
Martin 2008 Slayer, bare metal, squared @%$%^^, but a X finder. 
Athens Accomplice (first run) hunting bow, 2X4, square off, yeck, but Robin Hood capable at 30 yards (distance tested).
Martin Onza III, banana grip, ??? unsettling, indoor target accuracy.
2009 Pearson TX4, 2X4 grip panels, yeck, removed grip panels, nice, X ring capable out to 35 yards.
2012 Pearson MarXman, thinnest riser grip on the market, .600". Artificial wrist support thumb joint, took some getting use to, but target accuracy at any level.


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## ontarget7 (Dec 30, 2009)

SonnyThomas said:


> Once proper hand placement is learned you don't throw it away. It is used, period. What changes is nothing more than adjustment to the grip of the bow.
> 
> Said is riser grip to the inside of the base thumb knuckle. Teeter on the knuckle, bow wiggle.
> Said is to heal the grip. Gives eveness.
> ...


We all no your definition of tuning and true arrow flight is not mine . It's pretty easy to test this theory with a bareshaft. You will find out real quick which bow is more forgiving to your grip. I would also bet that it is the better overall shooter for you. 
I hear where you are coming from because I used to go about it with the same grip on every bow regardless. I would shoot most bows very well but not the accuracy they give me today from finding the bows sweet spot for grip pressure.


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## Top_Pin_Archery (Feb 16, 2012)

Awesome TTT


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## hatchettjack (Jan 16, 2012)

with pse and mission bows, i found a open hand grip the most accurate! with my new quest rogue i had to change to a full wrap around light grip!


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## NCAVI8TOR (Oct 5, 2003)

I'm sure you do great work Shane, but you cannot tune a bow for someone else unless they are at your shop during the tuning process, period. 

NC


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## ontarget7 (Dec 30, 2009)

NCAVI8TOR said:


> I'm sure you do great work Shane, but you cannot tune a bow for someone else unless they are at your shop during the tuning process, period.
> 
> NC


Respect your opinion but I would definitely differ with you on that. I do it all the time with great results


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## NCAVI8TOR (Oct 5, 2003)

ontarget7 said:


> Respect your opinion but I would definitely differ with you on that. I do it all the time with great results


Roger that, but we can agree to disagree. 

NC


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## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

I did a thread a couple weeks ago and called it my tuning experiment, I have always known that people tuned the bow to their personal influences such as torquing the grip. I took a bow tech destroyer and set it up with no can lean and to factory specs and can synched it. Then I set my torque indicator so that when I drew the bow the strings come straight back off of the cams not off to one side. The bow shot perfect arrow flight with absolutely no tuning of the rest or twisting of cables.

You guys really need to explore this option because it is new and needs to be explored because it may change tuning as we once knew it along with how we search for perfect shooting form.


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## ontarget7 (Dec 30, 2009)

Padgett said:


> I did a thread a couple weeks ago and called it my tuning experiment, I have always known that people tuned the bow to their personal influences such as torquing the grip. I took a bow tech destroyer and set it up with no can lean and to factory specs and can synched it. Then I set my torque indicator so that when I drew the bow the strings come straight back off of the cams not off to one side. The bow shot perfect arrow flight with absolutely no tuning of the rest or twisting of cables.
> 
> You guys really need to explore this option because it is new and needs to be explored because it may change tuning as we once knew it along with how we search for perfect shooting form.


How did you set cam synch if you did not twist the cables or yokes to set zero cam lean ? You lost me completely on that one


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## ron w (Jan 5, 2013)

I have mixed feelings about tuning the newer bows for someone else. the newer bows are so inert in their operation that once set up properly, they behave the same in anyone's hands. yet, it is hard to get away from the established idea that the individual shooter has a major input on how a bow reacts on the shot.
I think that if you tune a bow for someone else, the degree of difference in grip arrangement of the shooters' will only be a matter of small sight adjustment to get to the right POI.
I believe the elimination of recoil from the newer bows' geometry is responsible for this .
so I will say that with the newer bows, it is possible to tune a bow decently for someone else, without their presence.


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## hrtlnd164 (Mar 22, 2008)

Just a question and observation here for me. I also had to use alot of hand in the grip with the Darton systems as compared to my Hoyts. Is it the the grip or is it the fact the most of these bows being mentioned for needing more hand all tune slightly outside of centershot? Therefore the grip change is needed to work with system not being true centershot?


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## ontarget7 (Dec 30, 2009)

ron w said:


> I have mixed feelings about tuning the newer bows for someone else. the newer bows are so inert in their operation that once set up properly, they behave the same in anyone's hands. yet, it is hard to get away from the established idea that the individual shooter has a major input on how a bow reacts on the shot.
> I think that if you tune a bow for someone else, the degree of difference in grip arrangement of the shooters' will only be a matter of small sight adjustment to get to the right POI.
> I believe the elimination of recoil from the newer bows' geometry is responsible for this .
> so I will say that with the newer bows, it is possible to tune a bow decently for someone else, without their presence.



The sight is basically all the adjustment that is needed after a thorough tune with bareshafts and fletched hitting together at 20 yards. Do to tuning all the different draw lengths, ones anchor point can also be a reason for adjustment of the sight. As far as the tune there really is no adjustment needed because like you have mentioned the shooter influences on todays bows has been taken out of the equation by their design. Now you can go the extreme and say sure there are shooter influence to one that has bad form etc. That is correct and you have to do your part. However, even in the hands of someone with poor form etc, it will be far more forgiving after tuning to bareshafts and fletched impacting the same. 

You can look at the flip side of this which has happened to me more than ones. Customer gets the bow back and says it shoots great, then becomes curious and shoots it through paper. He notices a slight tear or even up to 1/2" horizontally so he decides to make adjustments to his rest to supposedly correct it. Well, then I get a call saying it shot way better before adjusting to shoot a bullet hole in paper. This is why I have come to the conclusion, that after you have the set up to impact the same bareshafts and fletched, you have the most forgiving set up regardless of how poor or how good the individuals form is. 

You cannot get a bow to impact the same point, bareshafts and fletched at 20 yards to an improper grip, it wont happen. I take that back, it can happen but your impact point with a bareshaft will always hit with a nock left or right, and never true in the target. In the right lighting this can be seen with a ever so slight tail whip in flight. Once that grip is corrected the arrow flight will be true and literally like a laser beam in flight.


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## ontarget7 (Dec 30, 2009)

hrtlnd164 said:


> Just a question and observation here for me. I also had to use alot of hand in the grip with the Darton systems as compared to my Hoyts. Is it the the grip or is it the fact the most of these bows being mentioned for needing more hand all tune slightly outside of centershot? Therefore the grip change is needed to work with system not being true centershot?


I would say yes. However, you can take a Hybrid system that has a yoke and tune to a centershot that is outside of the true powerstroke of the string and you will still need more thumb side pressure in relation to a 2 track binary. 

I think not being able to fine tune a 2 track system with a yoke to induce pre lean is a big reason behind it. Most the time at full draw you will have negative cam lean and your grip is compensating for it. 

When you get some 2 track bows with to much negative lean at full draw no matter what you do you will not get that clean bareshaft flight. I got in a Quest Drive to review and it had quite a bit of negative lean at full draw. So much bareshafts and fletched would not come together regardless of what i did. That bow would be an expandable broadhead bow. :teeth:


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## ron w (Jan 5, 2013)

basically you are right.......
grip is one of those areas in archery that does have a universally "right and wrong" element in it...... as I said earlier. what is "right" is "correct for everyone" and what is wrong will universally show in arrow flight through paper. it is that "inert degree of operation" that the newer bows posses, that makes this happen. as I've said earlier, it becomes a matter of being able to recognize what is "necessarily right" and what can be left to "individual preference". that makes a good tuner.


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## -bowfreak- (Oct 18, 2006)

ron w said:


> I have mixed feelings about tuning the newer bows for someone else. the newer bows are so inert in their operation that once set up properly, they behave the same in anyone's hands. yet, it is hard to get away from the established idea that the individual shooter has a major input on how a bow reacts on the shot.
> I think that if you tune a bow for someone else, the degree of difference in grip arrangement of the shooters' will only be a matter of small sight adjustment to get to the right POI.
> I believe the elimination of recoil from the newer bows' geometry is responsible for this .
> so I will say that with the newer bows, it is possible to tune a bow decently for someone else, without their presence.



I agree with you with one caveat if I tune my carbon matrix and someone tries to shoot a really low wrist grip pushing the radius right into the grip....it won't shoot well for them.


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## skynight (Nov 5, 2003)

ontarget7 said:


> T As far as the tune there really is no adjustment needed because like you have mentioned the shooter influences on todays bows has been taken out of the equation by their design .


This entire thread claims the opposite of the above quote.


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## ontarget7 (Dec 30, 2009)

-bowfreak- said:


> I agree with you with one caveat if I tune my carbon matrix and someone tries to shoot a really low wrist grip pushing the radius right into the grip....it won't shoot well for them.


True because it is not designed to shoot with a low wrist grip. They would also never achieve the most forgiveness in flight


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## ontarget7 (Dec 30, 2009)

skynight said:


> This entire thread claims the opposite of the above quote.


Not at all. Its about the grip and how you have to make adjustments to achieve the most forgiveness out of a given bow. 

You will have to re read in context what we were talking about.


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

NCAVI8TOR said:


> I'm sure you do great work Shane, but you cannot tune a bow for someone else unless they are at your shop during the tuning process, period.
> 
> NC





ontarget7 said:


> Respect your opinion but I would definitely differ with you on that. I do it all the time with great results


I would have to go with ontarget7, but how great I don't really know.

Like I noted above, I have a artificial wrist thumb joint and it can get...mushy and sometimes sore and sometimes swells. And couple that with being left handed, left eye dominate and having to shoot right handed. My "defects" and my age, 64, make me no Ace or Pro, but I well hold my own at club and state sanctioned events, even against the "kids."

Many have shot my bows and the only thing needed is sight adjustment (a bunch of it). My eyes, my normal torque will have others shooting about 6 inches right at 20 yards. Another may shoot the same right, but 4 inches high or low. One who shot my present target bow had to aim at the ASA 14 ring to hit center of the 10 ring and he did so with arrow slapping results. I believe the distance was approx. 33 yards.

Even rough sighting in can be done for the average bow and have one close to bull's eye accuracy at 20 yards.


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## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

Over the years I have allowed some fine pros to shoot and try my Elite bow. Amazing how well they shot it and grouped. Most were impressed by the smooth draw and good back wall. Most said without a doubt they felt they could shoot an Elite 

My hope is Elite does build a 40" bow. With decent speed. Think will see the tour in these guys hands at Vegas. Dave Barnsdale shot the Tour well at Lancasters.
DB


DB


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## sittingbull (Jan 19, 2003)

First, from the videos, no way to tell how much pressure is being placed on either side of the grip. 

Second, the pictures are taken at two different angles, giving the perception that the grip is different in the two videos.

IMO, Levi's grip in each video is identical as we can tell by looking at the pictures in the videos.


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## ontarget7 (Dec 30, 2009)

sittingbull said:


> First, from the videos, no way to tell how much pressure is being placed on either side of the grip.
> 
> Second, the pictures are taken at two different angles, giving the perception that the grip is different in the two videos.
> 
> IMO, Levi's grip in each video is identical as we can tell by looking at the pictures in the videos.


I would definitely disagree and see it quite obvious. You could even research other clips of his grip shooting the Mathews, its pretty obvious IMO

I am very familiar with the Elites even thou I do not shoot them anymore. If you watch the video and see the arrow in slow motion, that is a dead giveaway to the type of grip pressure applied. Try and shoot an Elite with med to high thumb side pressure and you will get a tail whip, I guarantee it. Regardless of how in tune you think you might be


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## skynight (Nov 5, 2003)

ontarget7 said:


> Not at all. Its about the grip and how you have to make adjustments to achieve the most forgiveness out of a given bow.
> 
> You will have to re read in context what we were talking about.


I read it, and pretty interesting. I find my grip the most important part of my form. But you can't say the shooter is removed from the equation and then say the shooter has to change grip styles when changing manufacturers.


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## ontarget7 (Dec 30, 2009)

skynight said:


> I read it, and pretty interesting. I find my grip the most important part of my form. But you can't say the shooter is removed from the equation and then say the shooter has to change grip styles when changing manufacturers.


Again in context, I am referring to the most forgiveness possible. 

It was referring to tuning a bow to acheive true arrow flight bareshaft and fletched same point of impact at 20 yards. Even with improper grip your end results is still far better than tuning to the shooter with improper grip/form. So, yes, from a tuning standpoint it is possible to achieve the most forgiveness in a tune without the shooter physically there. Regardless if the shooter imparts form/grip issues into the equation. Is this ideal? No, the shooter can then be coached through the grip process to ultimately gain the most forgiveness possible from a given set up. I have been testing this a lot over the last couple years and can tell pretty much from pics of bareshaft impact what type of grip change a customer needs.


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## Old Man Archer (Mar 31, 2009)

I believe you are trying to see more than is there to see. The grips on each bow is different thus they will look different in the hand when photographed. A square sided grip as shown on the Mathews with a straight back grip will look inherently different than that of the contoured grip on the Elite. I have yet to see a bow that I had to apply side pressure to, to get it to shoot correctly and torque free. Believe what you want but the difference in holding a squared object in your hand to a rounded will look different as well as whether a straight up and down compared to a curved or contoured. If you Think about the difference in the grips and how they are shaped you would then realize that the difference in the pictures is caused by that and not that he is holding the bow different. I hope Elite NEVER changes the grip on their bows as I find it very easy to shoot with a neutral Mid wrist grip.


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## ontarget7 (Dec 30, 2009)

Old Man Archer said:


> I believe you are trying to see more than is there to see. The grips on each bow is different thus they will look different in the hand when photographed. A square sided grip as shown on the Mathews with a straight back grip will look inherently different than that of the contoured grip on the Elite. I have yet to see a bow that I had to apply side pressure to, to get it to shoot correctly and torque free. Believe what you want but the difference in holding a squared object in your hand to a rounded will look different as well as whether a straight up and down compared to a curved or contoured. If you Think about the difference in the grips and how they are shaped you would then realize that the difference in the pictures is caused by that and not that he is holding the bow different. I hope Elite NEVER changes the grip on their bows as I find it very easy to shoot with a neutral Mid wrist grip.


Thats OK, you don't have to see it.

Its not just what I see in the pic, I more just used that as a visual example to bring this point up. To get the most forgiveness out of your set up grip is very much a part of it and very much overlooked. Been experimenting with this for quite some time now and believe me it has an effect on the amount of forgiveness you will achieve from a certain bow.


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## ron w (Jan 5, 2013)

as I've said...the grip is one area where right and wrong will clearly show . if you could poll all the better coaches in the world, I would wager that the most common and most frequent area of concern, is in that of the grip, for any discipline of archery, because it is the one element in good shooting that has the most narrow discipline and the most wide deviation from that discipline. yet at the same time it is also, one of the most known and practiced elements, when it comes to trying to shoot more consistently. again....just browse through the archives and start counting the posts that refer to.... grip torque being the "source" or the elimination of grip torque being the "remedy"...... of a "shooting problem"
you have to remember that the bow manufactures know what is "more or less correct grip structure" and they design that area of their bows around this "known standard"....it only makes sense that, a deviation from what is known as the "standard" is going to affect the shot adversely. 
at present, the "low wrist geometry" is more or less the "standard", so an attempt to shoot a bow designed for "low wrist geometry" with a "high wrist hold", will only result in these inconsistencies. it has become so universal that the design is specific to the operation of the bow itself. years ago, before the low rist was universally standardized, you could choose the bow you shot, by the geometry of the grip....not so much an more.
the fact that, as DB states, he has given his bows to several good pros and they all shot it well, serves to support the claim that a certain grip geometry has become universally standard. that and the fact that these pros can grab any bow and have a feel for what is right, as they draw the bow right off the bat. the fact is that with the grip geometry being this standardized, the only adjustments in grip pressure are very small and these guys recognize what is needed quickly. it is the "means to the end", in this case. the grip is designed so that the "standard" is easily adaptable their bow by any shooter that practices the standard and almost immediate shooting consistency from bow to bow, is possible......hence that element of "inert operation" allows any one to tune a modern bow decently for anyone else.


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

Old Man Archer said:


> I believe you are trying to see more than is there to see. The grips on each bow is different thus they will look different in the hand when photographed. A square sided grip as shown on the Mathews with a straight back grip will look inherently different than that of the contoured grip on the Elite. I have yet to see a bow that I had to apply side pressure to, to get it to shoot correctly and torque free. Believe what you want but the difference in holding a squared object in your hand to a rounded will look different as well as whether a straight up and down compared to a curved or contoured. If you Think about the difference in the grips and how they are shaped you would then realize that the difference in the pictures is caused by that and not that he is holding the bow different. I hope Elite NEVER changes the grip on their bows as I find it very easy to shoot with a neutral Mid wrist grip.





ontarget7 said:


> Thats OK, you don't have to see it.
> 
> Its not just what I see in the pic, I more just used that as a visual example to bring this point up. To get the most forgiveness out of your set up grip is very much a part of it and very much overlooked. Been experimenting with this for quite some time now and believe me it has an effect on the amount of forgiveness you will achieve from a certain bow.


You would have to know Old Man Archer to know what he's been through. A car wreck, I believe and broken back. His bow hand operated on years and years ago - seemed bandaged to about mid foreman. I don't know how he was able to hold a bow. Of more recent times his wrist or forearm bones were fused and a steel plate of some sort in place.
For the past 13, going on 14 years, he has been and remains one of the finer shooters in our area, regardless of type of event.


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## jguilbe (Aug 19, 2009)

SonnyThomas said:


> Another look at Levi's hand ---- Reading too much into nothing???? Different riser grip gives different look to same type hand grip???


It looks the same to me!!!!


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## Predator (Jan 18, 2003)

ontarget7 said:


> Thats OK, you don't have to see it.
> 
> Its not just what I see in the pic, I more just used that as a visual example to bring this point up. To get the most forgiveness out of your set up grip is very much a part of it and very much overlooked. Been experimenting with this for quite some time now and believe me it has an effect on the amount of forgiveness you will achieve from a certain bow.


Shane, I'm not sure everyone is clear on the distinction you are describing. When you say "thumb side pressure" some are reading that as side pressure with your thumb pressing left into the bow riser and some reading it as pressure forward into the grip with the thumb side (pad) of your hand. Which do you mean? I'm assuming the later but not positive. You can have more pressure from the thumb pad right of lifeline and pressure focus is a little higher on grip than if you palm the grip right down the lifeline but both can feel like what I would describe as low wrist it's just that with thumb side the wrist is off to the side and knuckles more at a 45 degree angle whereas palming it will result in wrist appearing down more and knuckles more vertical.


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## NCBuckNBass (Mar 5, 2005)

This article touches on grip position and Levi's old bow some. http://bowsite.com/bowsite/features/practical_bowhunter/grip/


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## ontarget7 (Dec 30, 2009)

Predator said:


> Shane, I'm not sure everyone is clear on the distinction you are describing. When you say "thumb side pressure" some are reading that as side pressure with your thumb pressing left into the bow riser and some reading it as pressure forward into the grip with the thumb side (pad) of your hand. Which do you mean? I'm assuming the later but not positive. You can have more pressure from the thumb pad right of lifeline and pressure focus is a little higher on grip than if you palm the grip right down the lifeline but both can feel like what I would describe as low wrist it's just that with thumb side the wrist is off to the side and knuckles more at a 45 degree angle whereas palming it will result in wrist appearing down more and knuckles more vertical.


To shoot with a low wrist grip you have more of a counterclockwise rotation and generally will be more closer to your life line of your hand. With more of a mid to high wrist grip to the thumb pad side you are more of a clockwise rotation. These movements are subtle and not drastic like you might think. Trust me they make a difference in your groups when you can find the sweet spot for the particular bow you are shooting. The key is to make these adjustments when tuning with a bareshaft and take note of the subtle changes in flight in relation to your grip changes. When you hit that sweet spot you will no it right of way when that bareshaft it's that perfectly true arrow flight. Impact point will be very true and perfectly straight, horizontally and vertically.


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## slhfromms (Jun 2, 2011)

I have tried to follow this closely, so sorry if this has been brought up already. Does switching to a "torque-less" type grip change your observations?


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## ontarget7 (Dec 30, 2009)

slhfromms said:


> I have tried to follow this closely, so sorry if this has been brought up already. Does switching to a "torque-less" type grip change your observations?


A torqueless grip does not necessarily mean you will not torque the bow from its intended sweet spot you might say. 

Really the only way to effectively no where you stand from a grip standpoint, as well as how well you are in tune is by a bareshaft. It will show you the smallest imperfections in your spine,tune, form and grip.


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## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

Ontarget7, I twisted cables to get the bow to factory spec and cam sync and cam lean. I then did my experiment where I used my torque indicator and drew back and moved the torque indicator until the strings were coming straight back off the cams on the same plane. My bow shot bullet holes with no normal tuning and that to me proved my thoughts that we as a archery community are making a huge mistake of tuning our bow to our influences. This is why the popular adding cam lean or pre lean to bows is so valuable because the grip of the shooter and his shooting form is causing the bow to torque and it takes a lot of tuning to find the combination of arrow spine and cam lean to get the bow to shoot good. 

As long as we refuse to install something on our bow that tells us when our form is adding torque to the system we will continue to have to do a whole lot of tuning and twisting to get the bow to shoot good.


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## ontarget7 (Dec 30, 2009)

Padgett said:


> Ontarget7, I twisted cables to get the bow to factory spec and cam sync and cam lean. I then did my experiment where I used my torque indicator and drew back and moved the torque indicator until the strings were coming straight back off the cams on the same plane. My bow shot bullet holes with no normal tuning and that to me proved my thoughts that we as a archery community are making a huge mistake of tuning our bow to our influences. This is why the popular adding cam lean or pre lean to bows is so valuable because the grip of the shooter and his shooting form is causing the bow to torque and it takes a lot of tuning to find the combination of arrow spine and cam lean to get the bow to shoot good.
> 
> As long as we refuse to install something on our bow that tells us when our form is adding torque to the system we will continue to have to do a whole lot of tuning and twisting to get the bow to shoot good.


I follow you now. I just let bareshaft be my determining torque indicator. Just been doing it so long that I know what to look for in the bareshaft results. For those that don't, it takes some time to determine whether to adjust your grip or adjust the tune.


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## ontarget7 (Dec 30, 2009)

I will add when you do find the sweet spot to stay in that zone so your grip becomes a habit, the retina sights work well. Most guys and gals don't set them up like that. They simply set them up to their most comfortable grip and call it good. I feel they can aid in a coaching devise once dialed in to where the optimal grip position would be


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## TexasCanesFan (Jun 23, 2005)

ontarget7 said:


> I guess I might have worded that wrong. More to left side with hand out in front of you. So yes more hand side. *I don't really feel the dual cams are more forgiving to grip at all. *Each cam system IMO from testing will require a certain grip for the ultimate in forgiveness in arrow flight.


Totally agree Shane. I have owned a ton of 2 tracks mainly Elites and feel there are not forgiving at all. I mean zero forgiveness. Either your grip is right or wrong. Period. 

Most RH shooters will shoot a right tear out of a 2 track. Then they will start to shim/flip whatever to chase the right tear. That is a grip problem, not a bow problem. 

For me, developing a consistent 2 track grip was one of the hardest things I ever tried to do in archery. I have it down finally but it took HOURS on a paper tuner. I do not have to spend those hours on a bow with a yoke. Tweak it a touch and it is there. 

That being said, I prefer the ease of tune on a 2 track. It tunes to the bow. That's it. It doesn't tune to the shooter like the rest. You have to have the proper 2 track grip to make it bullet hole after that.


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## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

Texas canes fan, when I read a post like yours it reminds me why I did my research and experiment. Your comments open my eyes that we are taking a perfectly good bow and totally screwing it up by drawing it back with our human body and then we have to screw around with the perfectly good bow until we find a combination of twists and cam lean that allow it to shoot with our poor form.


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## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

I am just a competition shooter and not a shop guy so I only touch a few bows, I wish I was a shop guy so I could do my methods on many bows and have more credibility but for now I am only using it for my own personal use.


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## TexasCanesFan (Jun 23, 2005)

Padgett said:


> Texas canes fan, when I read a post like yours it reminds me why I did my research and experiment. Your comments open my eyes that we are taking a perfectly good bow and totally screwing it up by drawing it back with our human body and then we have to screw around with the perfectly good bow until we find a combination of twists and cam lean that allow it to shoot with our poor form.


I used to try to help a lot of guys on EAF and stuff with their bows but so many of them relate back to a bad grip. No cam system magnifies it like a 2 track binary. 

Guys don't take too well to "your grip is the problem." Amazingly enough. 

If I naturally put my hand in an Elite or a Strother I will shoot a low right tear every single time. If I put my "2 track grip" on them then it is a bullet hole. There is nothing wrong with the bows and don't need to be shimmed or anything else. 

It can be frustrating as heck though until you figure it out and there are no yokes to help you.


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## eskimoohunt (Dec 21, 2008)

Tag


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## ElkFetish (Aug 12, 2007)

I was thinking more on this subject last night. Scary I know  
For those guys that think there is merit to ontargets supposition that grip must change for binaries, wouldn't it also follow that the more rigid the cable guard on a binary bow the more pronounced the problem of grip placement would be? I have a high country iron mace which is essentially a binary system. But it has their roller guard and one thing I have noticed on that bow compared to the other couple binaries I have shot is that my grip needs to be even more into the thumb than what is being discussed here. I realize there are other issues that may cause this but it seems that the rigid guard would make the issue we are discussing more pronounced. 

Thoughts?


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## Slingshot (Jan 1, 2008)

Great info on this thread.

I think there is some confusion based on what I'm reading so here goes....

What Shane is talking about is absolutely correct but a lot of the responses are overcomplicating it. Different bows require sightly different hand position that others because the bows are designed differently, but it's not a drastic difference and we are not reinventing the wheel on shooting form.

I truly believe this discussion should only be applied by advanced shooters, this is extremely high-level application and while all the info is great and worth reading not all shooters can apply it directly to improve their shooting. Remember this is about switching bows and not about changing your current grip. 

Ok so assuming you have utmost confidence in your ability and are shooting professional level scores( there are many many more archers that shoot at this level than there are pros competing). Eaisest way I can explain this is some bows have a more vertical grip than others and may require more pressure on the heel of your hand than then the top of your hand, on a grip that is cut deeper may require more even pressure on your entire palm. Now we get to the tricky part, hand placement on the left to right plane of the grip. This also relates to grip angle and also grip thickness, on a thicker grip you may rotate your hand more clockwise and thinner grip more counter clock wise. 

These adjustments are not drastic but make a huge difference. Its very hare to define what changes need to be made because it's about what works for you. Also it's a rather fast process, it doesn't take a month. The bow gives you instant feed back on every shot and you adjust with each shot until you get the right feel as well as the right sight picture and the right execution. This is the most difficult bar


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## Slingshot (Jan 1, 2008)

Hit the wrong button before I finished.....

As your shooting you see what position and pressure works for the most accurate and forgiving shots. Your targets will give you some feedback as well, but only the shooter can determine what is the best hand position for them. Hope this helped.


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## Bossmoss (Aug 25, 2005)

good read taged


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

Slingshot said:


> *Great info on this thread*.
> 
> I think there is some confusion based on what I'm reading so here goes....
> 
> ...


So what you have pretty much covers everything put forth. What you do have all combined is the shooter adjusting his or her hand placement to a different angled, thicker or thinner grip and not to forget, bow. What others and I have put forth is more that of what Terry Wunderle has penned many times over and that includes the heal of the hand in use. He has went so far as to say; "Heal the bow" or words to that effect. As such, not over bearing contact or we would have the reverse of a high wrist grip application. 

Ontarget7 began this with his assessment of Levi Morgan and Levi shooting the Elite bow. Levi had switched bows entirely, Mathews to Elite. Is he not somewhere in the learning/adjustment stage? I would say, yes...and probably has a pretty good grip (no pun intended) on the matter at hand.
Not known, does Levi lean to tiller adjusting? If so, more to consider.
One thing for sure, only Levi can tell us just what is really going on.

Of note; I can imagine Levi is getting chuckles from all the Posts and relies over his move to Elite. I wish him well.....


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## Slingshot (Jan 1, 2008)

Yes I was trying to simply what was being said because there seemed to be confusion.....I also was not disagreeing with Shane or anyone else. I was writing on the subject of different grip pressure for various designs. 

As far as what levi is or is not doing was not my concern. 

At this point its semantics anyways we have addressed the topic and this is a thread archery talk should be proud of. There is no where else to this this kind of information anywhere so freely.


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## Irish66 (Feb 11, 2007)

Slingshot said:


> Great info on this thread.
> 
> I think there is some confusion based on what I'm reading so here goes....
> 
> ...


Great Post here..... this can be very confusing to talk about with out pics. the link posted above has pics and helps visualize what the guys are explaining here. Thank Ontarget and the rest for the info


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## nflook765 (Dec 12, 2009)

ontarget7 said:


> Look at the angle of his knuckles on the Elite bows, it is more vertical which in return would give you more of a low wrist grip. N&B did a little more research on this with pics so maybe he could elaborate a little more. Definitely confirms what I have seen from a tuning standpoint to get true arrow flight with them.
> 
> Some might think I am thinking way to much into this but I really don't look at it like that at all. I really enjoy the technical side of things to get the truest arrow flight possible with each and every bow.


I definitely notice what you are talking about with my Strother SX-1. I used to shoot a Mathews for years. I shot well with the grip way out on the thumb. However, I notice with my Strother it is better to put it more in the center of your palm than on your thumb. The feeling it gives me in the end is that my elbow is actually turned under more instead of out. This makes my knuckes more verticle like you are saying. I also notice by making this change my Strother falls straight forward/down upon release instead of to either side. This is when I know that I have truly had the correct grip for that shot and made a good release and follow through.


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## Mahly (Dec 18, 2002)

Personally, I feel it has MUCH more to do with the shape and position of the grip on the bow, and to a lesser extent, the amount of torque from the cable slide. Not so much from the cam systems.

The grip position on the bow (how far below true center is the grip), the angle, and shape will all have more effect than cam system. Of course different cam systems may be designed to work better with certain riser geometry. Some may be better suited for the arrow to be in the true center of the string, others, not so much.

I know I have a significantly different grip on my friend's Elite, than I do on my Strother, and the same goes for my 2 different Hoyts…each riser wants it's own customized grip. The Basics of the grip are the same, but they do require small changes. Low/med/high wrist to me is all decided by grip angle. I won't fight to have a higher or lower grip.

As far as bow tuning goes. I do like the idea of at least testing the tune on a Hooter Shooter, but only to compare hole shape to mine. If the Hooter gets a bullet hole, and I don't…something is probably wrong with my grip. But other than that, I rarely paper tune.


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## kanga (Dec 8, 2009)

ontarget7 said:


> A torqueless grip does not necessarily mean you will not torque the bow from its intended sweet spot you might say.
> 
> Really the only way to effectively no where you stand from a grip standpoint, as well as how well you are in tune is by a bareshaft. It will show you the smallest imperfections in your spine,tune, form and grip.


This is exactly how I was able to come to terms with the banana grip on my Answer. I paper tuned it as best I could, the bow was in spec and cams synced, but bare shafts were not good and I had a slight right tear. I knew I had a grip problem and set about fixing it by shooting nothing but bare shafts, six at a time. It ended up taking half a day to get the sweet spot where BS were grouping with fletched and flying like darts at 20 yards. Funny thing was my hand position ended up being very similar to the grip I use with a Focus grip on my Mathews. The only difference was that with the Focus, I tuck my pinky and ring finger into my palm, creating more of an angle, whereas with the Answer, I only tuck my pinky in and also rotate my thumb cushion slightly to the right 

I really enjoyed this post, thank you!


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## ontarget7 (Dec 30, 2009)

Another example of my theory being the grip is determined by the actual cam design and not necessarily the manufacture, all though sometimes they go hand in hand. Look at the Prime series, a redesigned 2 track eliminating most of the cam lean. These bows are far more forgiving to grip pressure/grip position than a standard 2 track system. Same maker that still makes the 2 track system in the Quest line. Grip is the same in both lines but you will find from a tuning standpoint and forgiveness, the Prime is by far the winner in that. Now if they marketed that system in that manner it would be very hard for the standard 2 tracks to compete IMO. Just something else to think about in regards to grip, in forgiveness and tunabilty to ones grip to gain the most forgiveness. This is why you see a lot of reports from shooters seeing a big difference in shoot ability of the Prime line.


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## ElkFetish (Aug 12, 2007)

Just performed a very interesting test this morning, eye opening to me anyway. My sight bottoms out at 87 yards and I can shoot this off my back porch any time. Today was the first time we have had zero wind since this thread started. I shoot the anchor site as my peep substitute. This is an amazing device for noticing even the slightest torque issues especially when it comes to grip pressure or change in anchor point. You can see things that are completely lost in a standard peep setup. 

I shot groups today at 87 yards with my standard grip which is pretty neutral and right through the life line. My bow grip is a bit sticky and I have noticed from time to time upon draw back I don't come back with the anchor site showing the same sight picture when using this grip. To be clear, the anchor site is mostly centered but just slightly off and takes just the slightest of pressure adjustment in my grip to get the dot to center in the circle. The pressure change is always to the thumb side which is where I have found this bow shoots best. I shot groups and measured groups size and center of group.

Next I added some greasy lotion to my grip to get rid of the tacky feel that sometimes keeps me from finding that perfect grip for my bow. I also used my "binary" grip, using ontarget2's term here, which I learned through trial and error with this bow. Then I shot more groups. 

What I found:

1. My neutral gripped groups were all left of POA and around 50% larger in size. Shooting left of POA isn't an issue in and of itself as I have my bow sighted in with my other grip style but it does shot how the consistency from shot to shot could change without the correct grip. I averaged about 4 inches left and 4 inches higher. The group size is an issue however that matches what I have found over and over again with binaries and is why I changed my grip for this bow. I simply can't shoot as tight with my standard neutral grip. 

2. My "binary" grip brought my groups back to POA and they shrunk in size. Surprisingly the lube I put on my grip caused me to shoot some of the tightest groups I have shot all fall at this distance. It has to be from the lube basically ensuring that I have the exact same grip every time as I really don't have any other choice with it being so slippery. I had my FOB's touching at 87 yards! That's spooky good for me. 

3. My bow has always shot very well but I have always felt it could shoot better but I just kept having minor inconsistency issues that I felt weren't my fault. Not huge ones and for hunting inside 50 yards they were non-issues but they always bothered me and at times messed with my mental confidence which can lead to other issues in a sport so dominated by the mental side of the game. For me this test showed that ontarget2 is onto something regarding needing a different grip for binaries which follows my experience as I have tried to find the proper setup to make this bow shoot to its potential. It also showed me how much change in group size can be had by not only fine tuning the proper grip for your setup but also making sure your grip is exactly the same every time, especially when shooting at distance. 

4. I have thought this for a while but am now even more interested in whether the low wrist style that is so popular now with bow grips are really the right style for binary cam systems. With my more neutral grip I am definitely heeling the grip more and from past trial and error on 2 different binary cam bows I have found this to cause inconsistent performance.

Some may read this and say, "Um yeah, this is why I don't shoot binary systems". But my opinion is that they are the best system out there for my needs. I am a bow hunter first and I don't have any issues with changing POI when going from drastically changing weather conditions. I can't say this for other systems. They are also very simple to setup, tune, and in my experience once you get them set they are good to go for a very long time. I had my last set of strings on this bow for 4+years. It was mostly as an experiment but I never did have the bow come out of tune or change POI. I do believe that they are unique though and likely need to be looked at a bit differently than other systems to get the most out of them. I think this is true for the shooter and may even be something the manufacturers need to look at more closely to see what can be done to make these an even better system. 

Anyway, my take. 

Scot


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## ontarget7 (Dec 30, 2009)

Scot, may I ask what bow you used in your testing ? 
Thanks for sharing


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## ElkFetish (Aug 12, 2007)

High Country Iron Mace. They call it a trinary but it is essentially a binary type system. It also has a roller guard which I think makes the grip issue and even bigger deal.

Scot


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## ontarget7 (Dec 30, 2009)

*Levi Morgan, Grip pressure and why it leads to forgiveness >-----------------...*

Erased my original post and needed to word it different


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## ontarget7 (Dec 30, 2009)

*Levi Morgan, Grip pressure and why it leads to forgiveness >-----------------...*

I should rephrase that because you can achieve this a couple ways with a 2 track. 1) more of a low wrist grip gives you a slight counterclockwise rotation. 2) take your normal grip and have your thumb put slight pressure to your index finger. Both of these work well with a 2 track binary and essentially are forcing you to have that slight counterclockwise rotation.


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## straight2it (Nov 30, 2010)

Slingshot said:


> Great info on this thread.
> 
> I think there is some confusion based on what I'm reading so here goes....
> 
> ...


Thank you!


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## NoDeerInIowa (Mar 5, 2012)

Good thread. Thanks Shane


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## ontarget7 (Dec 30, 2009)

NoDeerInIowa said:


> Good thread. Thanks Shane


No problem


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## Crow Terminator (Jan 21, 2003)

Hmmm very interesting thread. You have me wondering about something now. Back in about 2008, I purchased a BowTech 82nd Airborne bow. I could be wrong but I think that bow had binary cams on it, and was my first jump to a bow with them on it. For whatever reason, I got to where I could shoot that bow extremely well. Since then, I have owned several different brands/models of bows...and the only ones out of the bunch that I've shot well, were binary cam bows. I wonder if perhaps I hit upon that "sweet spot" in the grip and thus I can shoot them pretty good. I've even had some target bows that had reputations for being extremely accurate...such as the Mathews C4 and Prestige...that I couldn't iron out the kinks in how they shot. They were in spec, and tune...but I was very inconsistent in how I grouped with them, etc. I was very finicky in how I shot them; one day I would be pretty good and the next day it was like I hadn't shot a bow in my life. In the case of me trying the C4, I also had an Elite Pure at the same time...and when I went back to the Pure, I was shooting lights out. Transitioning from an Elite to a Strother bow gave me a little bit of trouble...I still have trouble with the Strother as far as being consistent. I'm not bad with it...just no where near where I was with the Elites. I'm thinking very hard about jumping in with the Prime bows...I need to do a head to head with the Energy 35 and Impact.


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## KurtVL (Nov 22, 2005)

Tagged for later


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## ontarget7 (Dec 30, 2009)

Crow Terminator said:


> Hmmm very interesting thread. You have me wondering about something now. Back in about 2008, I purchased a BowTech 82nd Airborne bow. I could be wrong but I think that bow had binary cams on it, and was my first jump to a bow with them on it. For whatever reason, I got to where I could shoot that bow extremely well. Since then, I have owned several different brands/models of bows...and the only ones out of the bunch that I've shot well, were binary cam bows. I wonder if perhaps I hit upon that "sweet spot" in the grip and thus I can shoot them pretty good. I've even had some target bows that had reputations for being extremely accurate...such as the Mathews C4 and Prestige...that I couldn't iron out the kinks in how they shot. They were in spec, and tune...but I was very inconsistent in how I grouped with them, etc. I was very finicky in how I shot them; one day I would be pretty good and the next day it was like I hadn't shot a bow in my life. In the case of me trying the C4, I also had an Elite Pure at the same time...and when I went back to the Pure, I was shooting lights out. Transitioning from an Elite to a Strother bow gave me a little bit of trouble...I still have trouble with the Strother as far as being consistent. I'm not bad with it...just no where near where I was with the Elites. I'm thinking very hard about jumping in with the Prime bows...I need to do a head to head with the Energy 35 and Impact.


Yep, I guarantee it was the grip needed for the binary cam bows and the reason for better consistency. As far as being fitted to a bow the grip is just as much if not more overlooked than spine of an arrow.


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## Predator (Jan 18, 2003)

So Shane,

Let me pick your brain a little more on some related grip issues.

First let me ask if you think the OD Binary requires the same grip as a two-track or do you think the dual yokes allow you to address the cam lean such that a hybrid style grip works better with them?

Second, it would seem to me the binary grip style might be less conducive to shooting lower brace heights for hunting purposes only because of possible string slap issues since you would be rotating your forearm inwards more (by definition) than with the thumb pad hybrid/solo cam grip which rotates it out a bit. Additionally, I would think the binary grip style would result in more torque issues when shooting with gloves in cold conditions because you have more palm (and thus glove material) in the grip. I don't like to wear heavy gloves when hunting as I've experimented with gloves and don't like the torque that can be caused on bow hand or the change in anchor on draw hand but I do at least use some lighter gloves (and a muff to keep them warm when not in use) when the temps get cold here in the Midwest.

Lastly, I'd like your thoughts on stabilizers and the impact various weighting scenarios can have on POI. I'm on my way back from a South Dakota hunt with a buddy (awful hunt but that's another story) but while in camp I did some experimenting with the stab system I may use on the next bow. My DNA was tuned with single b-stinger out front. I put on a longer front rod with less weight on and a sidebar with some back weighting to see how it compared. It held well but POI was a bit left (so of course I put original back on as it's mid-hunting season).

Thoughts?


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## fresnohunter (Jul 6, 2010)

Great thread. I recently purchased a Vector Turbo and had a little trouble with my left/rights. I attributed some of this due to the stock rubber, rounded contour grip. I have in the past shot bows with a "skinny" grip ie PSE vendetta, Hoyt Alpha Elite. I pulled off the Vectors stock grip and put on wood side plates that I picked up online and that seemed to have made a world of difference.Still working on my grip to fine tune it to get the best results. What seems to be best for a Vector Turbo in your opinion Shane?


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## Predator (Jan 18, 2003)

fresnohunter said:


> Great thread. I recently purchased a Vector Turbo and had a little trouble with my left/rights. I attributed some of this due to the stock rubber, rounded contour grip. I have in the past shot bows with a "skinny" grip ie PSE vendetta, Hoyt Alpha Elite. I pulled off the Vectors stock grip and put on wood side plates that I picked up online and that seemed to have made a world of difference.Still working on my grip to fine tune it to get the best results. What seems to be best for a Vector Turbo in your opinion Shane?


When I shot Hoyt I always shot off the riser with sideplates - makes a big difference. I fact, with my AM32 (last Hoyt I owned other than a brief stint with a Spyder Turbo) I actually removed the palm side plate and just left the thumb side on. It looked a little funny with the exposed holes in the grip section of the riser but I felt I got the cleanest grip pressure that way. I'm shooting a PSE now and this is not an issue - PSE has the best grip feel IMO.


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## ontarget7 (Dec 30, 2009)

Predator said:


> So Shane,
> 
> Let me pick your brain a little more on some related grip issues.
> 
> ...


I find the OD binaries to have pretty much the same grip as the Hybrid cams. With the right amount of grip pressure / grip position in a slight clockwise rotation in the grip, more the thumb pad side you will have the least amount of pre lean. Now for those that have a more counterclockwise rotation or a lower heel grip you can have equal results but your end result will generally be more pre lean in the cams to accomplish this. This is one thing that having two yokes can over come and still get true arrow flight when tuned accordingly. The Hybrids will require the same clockwise rotation and pressure to the thumb pad side for minimal pre lean. However if you try and make the counterclockwise rotation with more heel pressure work you will not have the same results with one yoke on a Hybrid cam. Don't get me wrong you can get the bareshafts to impact the same as fletched at 20 yards but you will always have the bareshaft at an angle in the target. The results will also very as you change distances. 

I would agree with your assumption of the counterclockwise rotation of the grip with a binary cam being more prone for forearm contact with the string at a 6" brace. Generally with the right grip on a Hybrid you will very seldom see contact an issue with the lower brace height bows.

I find different stabilizer set ups can effect your POI. Lots of variables with this thou and more so can be noticed more so with a supporting arrow rest, like a limb driven or lizard tongue style of rest. With a drop away going the the down cable I see less change in point of impact when changing stabs do to less influence after the shot. This is a perfect example of how the shot can be influenced after the release of the arrow. However with that said I don't see the need to tune accordingly to a stabilizer set up. The same tune holds true regardless from my testing. 

Shane


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## ontarget7 (Dec 30, 2009)

fresnohunter said:


> Great thread. I recently purchased a Vector Turbo and had a little trouble with my left/rights. I attributed some of this due to the stock rubber, rounded contour grip. I have in the past shot bows with a "skinny" grip ie PSE vendetta, Hoyt Alpha Elite. I pulled off the Vectors stock grip and put on wood side plates that I picked up online and that seemed to have made a world of difference.Still working on my grip to fine tune it to get the best results. What seems to be best for a Vector Turbo in your opinion Shane?


IMO, the most forgiving grip with the Hoyt's is a Med to High wrist grip with a clockwise rotation and pressure to the thumb pad. 

When I refer to the different grips they generally will mean settle changes and no need to exaggerate these moves.


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## Inc. (Jul 5, 2013)

#1 - I do not believe bare shaft is the most forgiving a bow can be , if I bare shaft I end up group tuning at distance, which involves me moving my rest , which diverts the bare shaft tune. Bare shaft insures the bow is shooting efficiently , efficancy does not neccissarly equate to forgiveness or accuracy.

#2 - with you theory , you tune my bow , you return the bow and I can not bare shaft , should I then adjust my grip accordingly ? 
Is this based on your personal grip and experiences or will a hooter Suffice for the running hand ? 

3# how would you tune an indoors 27 set up shooting a blade rest with the bare shaft theory ? 


Thanks


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## ontarget7 (Dec 30, 2009)

*Levi Morgan, Grip pressure and why it leads to forgiveness >-----------------...*



Inc. said:


> #1 - I do not believe bare shaft is the most forgiving a bow can be , if I bare shaft I end up group tuning at distance, which involves me moving my rest , which diverts the bare shaft tune. Bare shaft insures the bow is shooting efficiently , efficancy does not neccissarly equate to forgiveness or accuracy. I would be referring to my distance shooting results out to 100 yards.
> 
> #2 - with you theory , you tune my bow , you return the bow and I can not bare shaft , should I then adjust my grip accordingly ?
> Is this based on your personal grip and experiences or will a hooter Suffice for the running hand ?
> ...


#1. I would have to disagree and find my best groups come when I bareshaft tune. Keep in mind when I bareshaft tune they are perfect in line vertical as well as horizontally with my fletched. 

#2. Yes, the most forgiveness comes from that sweet spot in the grip. When this is achieved and repeated so it becomes second nature, that is what will give you the ultimate in forgiveness for a given set up. 

#3. Now I have not shot a bunch of indoor but have shot my far share of 300's on a Vegas Face and I have treated my tune the exact same way. Plan on shooting more indoor next year so I will let you know how that goes.


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

*Levi Morgan, Grip pressure and why it leads to forgiveness >------------------------>*

Film stop picture in question. For PR? I noted ruffles from the back stabs. NFAA rule - Both are Disqualified


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## Inc. (Jul 5, 2013)

SonnyThomas said:


> Film stop picture in question. For PR? I noted ruffles from the back stabs. NFAA rule - Both are Disqualified


 You see that alot if you look


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## Inc. (Jul 5, 2013)

ontarget7 said:


> #1. I would have to disagree and find my best groups come when I bareshaft tune. Keep in mind when I bareshaft tune they are perfect in line vertical as well as horizontally with my fletched.
> 
> #2. Yes, the most forgiveness comes from that sweet spot in the grip. When this is achieved and repeated so it becomes second nature, that is what will give you the ultimate in forgiveness for a given set up.
> 
> #3. Now I have not shot a bunch of indoor but have shot my far share of 300's on a Vegas Face and I have treated my tune the exact same way. Plan on shooting more indoor next year so I will let you know how that goes.


Just looking for answers not an argument ,please don't tak it that way ...
1# are you using blades for bare shaft ? How much weight up front if yes to blades , yes bare shaft is same POI in my book as well 
Have you ever grouped tuned at 80 after you have bare shafted , and arrow tuned on a hooter ? ( using a blade ) ? I always tighten up my groups after this method .

2# so can use your method with a hooter shooter , or do I need the experience of " your personal " hands on knowlage ?/ hooters can vary on grip as well so how is this descending made ?

3# so were you using heavy 23/27s and a blade ?


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## ontarget7 (Dec 30, 2009)

Inc. said:


> Just looking for answers not an argument ,please don't tak it that way ...
> 1# are you using blades for bare shaft ? How much weight up front if yes to blades , yes bare shaft is same POI in my book as well
> Have you ever grouped tuned at 80 after you have bare shafted , and arrow tuned on a hooter ? ( using a blade ) ? I always tighten up my groups after this method .
> 
> ...


I don't take it as an argument. I enjoy this sport to much LOL !

The difference I believe for your adjustment IMO would be the Hooter Shooter. This will give the same pressure at the grip every time regardless of bow. I shoot every thing myself and the reason I have come to the conclusion of the sweet spot for certain cam systems in regards to grip. It is impossible to mimic that on a Hooter Shooter. 

It is through trial and error tuning many different bows that brings me to my conclusion. I have tried over and over again to mis match the grips with different bows, no matter what I do from a tuning aspect I will not get that true flight. 

The most weight up front for me on target shafts have been 200 gr. I mostly have used Easton Full Bores, Gold tip XXX and GT's 22 series. I would be limited on my testing for the different set ups from a indoor 20 yard set up. From a tuning aspect and forgiveness on these set ups I have had better luck with an LD rest than a blade.


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## Inc. (Jul 5, 2013)

ontarget7 said:


> I don't take it as an argument. I enjoy this sport to much LOL !
> 
> The difference I believe for your adjustment IMO would be the Hooter Shooter. This will give the same pressure at the grip every time regardless of bow. I shoot every thing myself and the reason I have come to the conclusion of the sweet spot for certain cam systems in regards to grip. It is impossible to mimic that on a Hooter Shooter.
> 
> ...


 So then you must feel a LD is a more accurate rest ? espaically to shoot target " standard Vegas " arrows with , being as its practically impossible . To bare shaft theses arrows on a blade especially with 200 g up front. 

Have you ever grouped tuned at 80 yards with a blade rest after bare shaft tuning ? You might be surprisedif not. I can always tighten up my field arrow groups after bare shafting at 20 by group tuning at 80 with only rest adjustments . Perhaps my grip is not in the sweet spot ? 

How would you fondel the riser on an OK DST ?


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## ontarget7 (Dec 30, 2009)

Inc. said:


> So then you must feel a LD is a more accurate rest ? espaically to shoot target " standard Vegas " arrows with , being as its practically impossible . To bare shaft theses arrows on a blade especially with 200 g up front.
> 
> Have you ever grouped tuned at 80 yards with a blade rest after bare shaft tuning ? You might be surprisedif not. I can always tighten up my field arrow groups after bare shafting at 20 by group tuning at 80 with only rest adjustments . Perhaps my grip is not in the sweet spot ?
> 
> How would you fondel the riser on an OK DST ?


I am assuming you are not referring to indoor arrows at 80 yards ? When I am done with my bareshaft tuning I never have no need to adjust out to 100 yards. Here is a few pics at 80 -100 yards with zero adjustment after initial tune. Never have tried out the OK DST's so I can't comment on those. I used to go through a different tuning procedure that always required me to group tune but have not had to in quite some time.


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## ontarget7 (Dec 30, 2009)

few more


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## Inc. (Jul 5, 2013)

Nice work


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## ontarget7 (Dec 30, 2009)

Inc. said:


> So then you must feel a LD is a more accurate rest ? espaically to shoot target " standard Vegas " arrows with , being as its practically impossible . To bare shaft theses arrows on a blade especially with 200 g up front.
> 
> Have you ever grouped tuned at 80 yards with a blade rest after bare shaft tuning ? You might be surprisedif not. I can always tighten up my field arrow groups after bare shafting at 20 by group tuning at 80 with only rest adjustments . Perhaps my grip is not in the sweet spot ?
> 
> How would you fondel the riser on an OK DST ?


I would say yes I feel the LD is a more accurate rest for me. A good part of those photos is also with a QAD HDX. All are with a BHFS set up. 

As far as a blade and indoor, the times I have bareshaft tuned with one I have not had an issue at 20 yards even with the tip weight. Never really spent much time with them long range to give you a fair answer on the group tuning with a blade. 

My guess would be that yes, it could well be your grip.


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## ontarget7 (Dec 30, 2009)

Ok, I just got in a Mathews Chill that has not had a great record for tuning and the customer said most did not want to even mess with it. This bow was for a buddy of his that really liked the bow but just could not get it to tune. Long story short when I first started the tuning process I was like, oh boy, what did I get myself into LOL. This particular one was a challange to get bareshafts and fletched to fly true at 20 yards. I was trying to get this to work at your typical Mathews centershot location with different grip pressure etc, with no luck. Not having any yokes by the bareshaft impact point it was leading me to believe that I needed to adjust away from the riser for centershot. I proceeded to do this in small increments with different grip changes as well. This finally brought me to a centershot measurement right between 13/16 and 7/8. It also required more of an Elite style grip pressure, way more counterclockwise rotation with thumb pressure towards the index finger. I will post pics of bareshaft and fletched after I verify the tune this evening. Already split one bareshaft with a fletched arrow at 20 yards.


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## NIIDEEP (Oct 12, 2013)

Interesting on his hand grip. Its exactly how we used to hold the bow. We always took off the grip because we wanted the flat side of the riser to rest on the thumb part of your palm. We put our index finger on the top edge of the rest plain and our fingers along the front side of the riser. A lot of people seem to rotate their hand to much counter clockwise. Ours was mostly right below the second joint of your thumb and there is only about 1 1/2 inch there on my hand. What was funny the Bow Companies back then wanted to know why we kept taking the grip off. The last Bow I bought and really liked was a 737 Hoyt. Bow shot good for me and had the longer axle length but off came the grip!!


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## ontarget7 (Dec 30, 2009)

NIIDEEP said:


> Interesting on his hand grip. Its exactly how we used to hold the bow. We always took off the grip because we wanted the flat side of the riser to rest on the thumb part of your palm. We put our index finger on the top edge of the rest plain and our fingers along the front side of the riser. A lot of people seem to rotate their hand to much counter clockwise. Ours was mostly right below the second joint of your thumb and there is only about 1 1/2 inch there on my hand. What was funny the Bow Companies back then wanted to know why we kept taking the grip off. The last Bow I bought and really liked was a 737 Hoyt. Bow shot good for me and had the longer axle length but off came the grip!!


I find the counterclockwise rotation needed for a none yoke system. My assumption is, it counteracts the lean you have at full draw with these 2 track or none adjustable yoke systems


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## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

I found out what you are talking about a few years ago ontarget7 when I first bought my destroyer 350, my first tuning experience with it didn't go well and I ended up getting bullet holes but the rest was way off center and I simply wasn't satisfied. I put the bow back to the original factory settings with the rest in the center of the shelf and I went to 6 feet and just started shooting through paper and I changed my grip and slightly torqued the grip left and right. Within a few minuets I found bullet holes and that opened my eyes to how important a good grip on the bow really is.

All of this lead me to coming up with my current feelings that I mentioned earlier in this thread.


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## ontarget7 (Dec 30, 2009)

Padgett said:


> I found out what you are talking about a few years ago ontarget7 when I first bought my destroyer 350, my first tuning experience with it didn't go well and I ended up getting bullet holes but the rest was way off center and I simply wasn't satisfied. I put the bow back to the original factory settings with the rest in the center of the shelf and I went to 6 feet and just started shooting through paper and I changed my grip and slightly torqued the grip left and right. Within a few minuets I found bullet holes and that opened my eyes to how important a good grip on the bow really is.
> 
> All of this lead me to coming up with my current feelings that I mentioned earlier in this thread.


Ya, I have been doing this for quite awhile with lots of different cam systems to come to this conclusion. There is definitely a sweet spot to your grip and when you find it, it can make a huge difference on your shooting. The common thing really goes back to the cam system in relation to what grip they prefer. I find very common results with each cam system regardless the manufacture. Generally speaking on a 2 track, the more lean at full draw the more counterclockwise rotation they will require to get the most forgiveness out of them.


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## cgs1967 (Sep 29, 2011)

I found the comments from others posted at the bottom of the video funny. Some people are dogging the sport saying how easy it is to shoot a compound bow. I agree with the one poster who said "Then take a compound bow to the worlds and win it." some of us shoot very well but it is totally different standing in front of all of those people and your competitors on the big stage. Those guys have to have ice in their vanes.


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## ontarget7 (Dec 30, 2009)

ontarget7 said:


> Ok, I just got in a Mathews Chill that has not had a great record for tuning and the customer said most did not want to even mess with it. This bow was for a buddy of his that really liked the bow but just could not get it to tune. Long story short when I first started the tuning process I was like, oh boy, what did I get myself into LOL. This particular one was a challange to get bareshafts and fletched to fly true at 20 yards. I was trying to get this to work at your typical Mathews centershot location with different grip pressure etc, with no luck. Not having any yokes by the bareshaft impact point it was leading me to believe that I needed to adjust away from the riser for centershot. I proceeded to do this in small increments with different grip changes as well. This finally brought me to a centershot measurement right between 13/16 and 7/8. It also required more of an Elite style grip pressure, way more counterclockwise rotation with thumb pressure towards the index finger. I will post pics of bareshaft and fletched after I verify the tune this evening. Already split one bareshaft with a fletched arrow at 20 yards.


Here is a follow up to this post with pics. This was achieved with a counterclockwise rotation and thumb pretty much touching my index finger to get the right amount of rotation. No matter what I did I could not get it to tune any other way. Regardless the end result is true arrow flight. This one just about had me stumped.


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## Inc. (Jul 5, 2013)

"Here is a follow up to this post with pics. This was achieved with a counterclockwise rotation and thumb pretty much touching my index finger to get the right amount of rotation. No matter what I did I could not get it to tune any other way. Regardless the end result is true arrow flight. This one just about had me stumped. "

Should one assume you can not get these results with a Hooter Shooter ? What I am trying to get at is, are you saying it will not "tune ' without side plate pressure '
and correct hand rotation . 
THe hooter provides a "neutral " even grip unless adjusted else wise. Would this be possible with a hooter ? I can only assume if it is possible with a hooter a " dead bow hand " should do the same ??


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## ontarget7 (Dec 30, 2009)

Inc. said:


> "Here is a follow up to this post with pics. This was achieved with a counterclockwise rotation and thumb pretty much touching my index finger to get the right amount of rotation. No matter what I did I could not get it to tune any other way. Regardless the end result is true arrow flight. This one just about had me stumped. "
> 
> Should one assume you can not get these results with a Hooter Shooter ? What I am trying to get at is, are you saying it will not "tune ' without side plate pressure '
> and correct hand rotation .
> THe hooter provides a "neutral " even grip unless adjusted else wise. Would this be possible with a hooter ? I can only assume if it is possible with a hooter a " dead bow hand " should do the same ??


Nope, not from my findings on a lot of 2 track systems / non yoke systems. I know guys that will not even shoot a 2 track because they have had a hard time getting them to tune out of a Hooter shooter. It just doesn't provide the right grip pressure.


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## Mahly (Dec 18, 2002)

And yet my 2 track was shooting billets out of a hooter shooter after 1 small rest adjustment ( was only eyeballed to start).
With me shooting next, we still got bullet holes.


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## ontarget7 (Dec 30, 2009)

*Levi Morgan, Grip pressure and why it leads to forgiveness >-----------------...*



Mahly said:


> And yet my 2 track was shooting billets out of a hooter shooter after 1 small rest adjustment ( was only eyeballed to start).
> With me shooting next, we still got bullet holes.


Probably because you don't have much cam lean at full draw. The more cam lean in a 2 track at full draw the more you will need to compensate for it with your grip.


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## field14 (May 21, 2002)

I don't see where anyone has mentioned that the SLING does its job with ALL of those shooters in the video...as in...the HAND isn't what is "catching the bow" upon the loose of the shot...watch the bowhand and the bow AFTER that release trips....There is NO GRABBING of that bow by the shooter...Therefore, there isn't any extra "English" put into the bow; especially by Levi Morgan! Proper use of the bow sling and properly allowing the grip and the bow to do their jobs with as little influence or "pre-torque" as possible, if any at all.
The BOW is going to repeat its motion/reaction every single time if it is "allowed" to do it. Way too much B.S. going on over cam lean and using your bow-hand positioning to "compensate for it"; thereby interfering with what the bow will do by itself, if you allow it to do so.

I do agree with there being a "sweet spot" for your grip....yepper... IF you just let the bow settle itself into the sweet spot all by itself without you trying to figure it out, that is. How can you repeat a "gyration of grip movement" exactly every time? You can't, but if you LET the bow do its thing and settle into yours/its "sweet spot" things work out better than you over-thinking all the B.S. and seeking it out B. S.

field14 (Tom D.)


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## ontarget7 (Dec 30, 2009)

field14 said:


> I don't see where anyone has mentioned that the SLING does its job with ALL of those shooters in the video...as in...the HAND isn't what is "catching the bow" upon the loose of the shot...watch the bowhand and the bow AFTER that release trips....There is NO GRABBING of that bow by the shooter...Therefore, there isn't any extra "English" put into the bow; especially by Levi Morgan! Proper use of the bow sling and properly allowing the grip and the bow to do their jobs with as little influence or "pre-torque" as possible, if any at all.
> The BOW is going to repeat its motion/reaction every single time if it is "allowed" to do it. Way too much B.S. going on over cam lean and using your bow-hand positioning to "compensate for it"; thereby interfering with what the bow will do by itself, if you allow it to do so.
> 
> I do agree with there being a "sweet spot" for your grip....yepper... IF you just let the bow settle itself into the sweet spot all by itself without you trying to figure it out, that is. How can you repeat a "gyration of grip movement" exactly every time? You can't, but if you LET the bow do its thing and settle into yours/its "sweet spot" things work out better than you over-thinking all the B.S. and seeking it out B. S.
> ...


In a perfect scenario that would all be peachy. However, this is not the case to many scenarios to mention and know BS behind it at all. Take the Mathews Chill that I am wrapping up. It has been tuned by multiple guys with zero luck. Same results for each person with bareshafts hitting left of fletched and broadheads hitting left as well. Now with a little rest adjustment outside of the norm for a Mathews and a little grip change you have bareshafts, broadheads and fieldpoints flying together. Call it what you want but it's no BS and you now have perfect arrow flight.


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## Mahly (Dec 18, 2002)

ontarget7 said:


> Probably because you don't have much cam lean at full draw. The more cam lean in a 2 track at full draw the more you will need to compensate for it with your grip.


So it is really more how much torque the system is putting on the bow much more that what kind of cams. 

I.e. A 2 track with something like a tilt tamer might need LESS compensation than say a hybrid with a roller guard with a lot of torque.


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## ontarget7 (Dec 30, 2009)

Mahly said:


> So it is really more how much torque the system is putting on the bow much more that what kind of cams.
> 
> I.e. A 2 track with something like a tilt tamer might need LESS compensation than say a hybrid with a roller guard with a lot of torque.


I find far less compensation needed for a hybrid system. Lateral nock travel is tuned out to a minimal through the yoke system. This puts you in control of the cam being plumb at full draw. Most compensation in a counterclockwise rotation appears to be common in the 2 track system. If I tried the grip on a hybrid cam it would never tune right.


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

Of the Mathews Chill. Note arrow for being parallel to the edge of the riser shelf - tape measure blocking a full look, but looks drastic. Not quite sure what I'm looking at, but seems the center of the arrow would be leaning to the outside of the bowstring whereas normally the center of the arrow would be aligned or slightly to the inside of the string.
.
.
I R not the bare shaft tuner. Really don't care about a bare shaft doing anything. But I've tore off a vane purposely and "killed" them nuisance 20 yard Xs just as well as I have with a fletched arrow. I did this once when a Staff Shooter tried to tell me his arrow went wayward because of a missing vane. If I remember correctly I've done this with various short vanes, Mini Blazer, Blazers, NAP Twisters, 1 3/4" X vanes to name a few.

Granted, there is a transition time for one to adapt (?) to a different grip and/or bow. Some gain it quick and others take longer.
I use basically the same grip, where it slips and stays, no force other than "bow arm strong." Through different means (not too damn many) I tune for me. More than likely I'll use the French tuning procedure. Doesn't make any difference the bow or cam system, they get French Tuned. If anything foregiving I'd say the cable stop bows over positive stop bows.

I see field14 has replied. Well, I agree. I went through proper hand placement to the riser grip and had the scarey ordeal of my hand lubed to find where the bow slipped to the sweet spot. I believe Tom wrote up his adventure of "greased" grip.

Unsure of how pictures will be displayed;
Bag target, 80 yards. I don't shoot Outdoor target or Field anymore, but I doubt that one would say my accuracy and groups are not all that bad. Red Line cam, Hoyt. FOC of 7.23%

Wind blown plastic bags; field14 and one were "discussing" bow tilt to adjust for wind and of course field14 was against it and I'm against such. Holding into the wind, yeah, if the wind stays consisitent, maybe. I used plastic bags in a twisting wind (one decided to Kite about 10feet - not red dot of where it was). The only way I could shoot was stand beside the house, 30 yards. Bow, 33 1/2" atat, yokeless Pearson R2B2 cams and dual positive stops. The only way I could get consistent accuracy was to remove the 2X4 grip panels. Of note; This short ata bow was noted by ferretboy in another Thread. He noted of my nailing a baseball bull's eye at 60 yards and with one shot to win where others took more than one shot.

Pictures. We all take pictures. Well, I don't put up a new target every time I set up a bow, nor when testing. Even with the bull's eye completing gone I know where the X ring would be. 

Busted nock and bent pins. I do most all my practicing/shooting from 25 to 40 yards. Yes, my wife is making my doctor unhappy 
Of note; If I've found one thing about pin bushings and other bushing, you don't have to hit the pin cause pin or nock wobble issuses. That little nick or two at the edge and cause the pin to be off center. Often wondering, I have the big Apple arrow spinner on-hand and I find it. 

Picture with one arrow and vane missing. 

Arrows of wind blown bags and single arrow are said...not desirable? 6.02% FOC. Given error factor, 5.79 to 6.25% FOC. Arrow in bag are better at 7.23%.

Bottom line; What works for one, works for one.


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## Inc. (Jul 5, 2013)

Inc. said:


> "Here is a follow up to this post with pics. This was achieved with a counterclockwise rotation and thumb pretty much touching my index finger to get the right amount of rotation. No matter what I did I could not get it to tune any other way. Regardless the end result is true arrow flight. This one just about had me stumped. "
> 
> Should one assume you can not get these results with a Hooter Shooter ? What I am trying to get at is, are you saying it will not "tune ' without side plate pressure '
> and correct hand rotation .
> THe hooter provides a "neutral " even grip unless adjusted else wise. Would this be possible with a hooter ? I can only assume if it is possible with a hooter a " dead bow hand " should do the same ??


Please let address this .. It goes hand in hand with field - "sling " theory


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## ontarget7 (Dec 30, 2009)

Inc. said:


> Please let address this .. It goes hand in hand with field - "sling " theory


A neutral grip will not be the case for every bow out there, it's just not going to happen.


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## Inc. (Jul 5, 2013)

field14 said:


> I don't see where anyone has mentioned that the SLING does its job with ALL of those shooters in the video...as in...the HAND isn't what is "catching the bow" upon the loose of the shot...watch the bowhand and the bow AFTER that release trips....There is NO GRABBING of that bow by the shooter...Therefore, there isn't any extra "English" put into the bow; especially by Levi Morgan! Proper use of the bow sling and properly allowing the grip and the bow to do their jobs with as little influence or "pre-torque" as possible, if any at all.
> The BOW is going to repeat its motion/reaction every single time if it is "allowed" to do it. Way too much B.S. going on over cam lean and using your bow-hand positioning to "compensate for it"; thereby interfering with what the bow will do by itself, if you allow it to do so.
> 
> I do agree with there being a "sweet spot" for your grip....yepper... IF you just let the bow settle itself into the sweet spot all by itself without you trying to figure it out, that is. How can you repeat a "gyration of grip movement" exactly every time? You can't, but if you LET the bow do its thing and settle into yours/its "sweet spot" things work out better than you over-thinking all the B.S. and seeking it out B. S.
> ...


OFF topic / a tad - 

In a way I think " catching is way over rated and way less of a problem than " gripping " 
Catching happens after the fact . In other words just like a shot gun , recoil direction from a bow is towards the " shoulder " first / The bow kicks towards the archers palm then bounces away. The bow does not " jump " straight away . So what we want to control is the actual recoil of the bow , " snatching the bow after it has bounced out of the palm has no effect on the shot , the arrow is gone ! 
The problem is anticipating the shot and snatching or grabbing the bow " after " the shot . 
Weighting the bow to the lower left ( right hand shooter ) works because it sits the bow hand up to equalize the actual recoil from the shot .. 
Great examples are Cuz and REo - their bows fall flat out of the sky after the shot ,and so counter weighted its silly , you do not see that counter clock wise torque of the bow
after their shots .


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

*Levi Morgan, Grip pressure and why it leads to forgiveness >------------------------>*



Inc. said:


> Please let address this .. It goes hand in hand with field - "sling " theory


??? Got to using a sling and went with what Randy Ulmer noted, you want to know it's there. Okay, "know" is not snug (Grrrrr! Irks me someone notes their sling bothering them or rubbing them raw). So after so many years, I was testing this bow I was setting up. The customer wanted a demonstration as he wasn't getting the results I was. Well, I stood at full draw and letting him see my hand and whatever. "Let see you shoot." So I let down. Gave it maybe 15 seconds and again came to full draw and fired. LORD! The customer's bow went down range. So much for parallel limb bows dead in the hand  Thick painted concrete floor was the only thing we felt saved the bow. Bow okay we then looked to the target - arrow in the X ring.

I don't know how heavily weight Levi's bow is, but another Pro and a Semi Pro has bows that weigh twice what mine does. Fire and bow is just there and yes, falling.


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## Inc. (Jul 5, 2013)

ontarget7 said:


> A neutral grip will not be the case for every bow out there, it's just not going to happen.


not neutral , a dead grip , no influence.
IE - a hooter shooter can not get the same results ? 

I prepose you this , If I can tune a left handed bow shooting with my right hand , with a drop away rest and get bare shafts touching at 20 - will the tune be the same for a left handed person ?

The only reason to input " thumb " pressure is to define a constant repeatable feeling for the archer - again see Team USA thumbs - ( recurve ) 
I think its kinda silly to say , the only way to get perfect BST ( bare shaft tune ) is to influence it with grip pressure . 
HEck Ill take the same bow in question and bare shaft it in my hooter. 

Shane , your concept is very valuable if applied to the individual and not as a whole - ( thats an opinion ) - my hand is not your hand , and it just does not seem practical to get a bow BST , then adjust my grip to get the same results .. 
Why not BST to my or the hooters natural grip ?


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## Inc. (Jul 5, 2013)

SonnyThomas said:


> ??? Got to using a sling and went with what Randy Ulmer noted, you want to know it's there. Okay, "know" is not snug (Grrrrr! Irks me someone notes their sling bothering them or rubbing them raw). So after so many years, I was testing this bow I was setting up. The customer wanted a demonstration as he wasn't getting the results I was. Well, I stood at full draw and letting him see my hand and whatever. "Let see you shoot." So I let down. Gave it maybe 15 seconds and again came to full draw and fired. LORD! The customer's bow went down range. So much for parallel limb bows dead in the hand  Thick painted concrete floor was the only thing we felt saved the bow. Bow okay we then looked to the target - arrow in the X ring.
> 
> I don't know how heavily weight Levi's bow is, but another Pro and a Semi Pro has bows that weigh twice what mine does. Fire and bow is just there and yes, falling.


I was referring to using the hand as a sling V - a simple dead pocket , not a bow sling. 
great read !


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## ontarget7 (Dec 30, 2009)

Inc. said:


> not neutral , a dead grip , no influence.
> IE - a hooter shooter can not get the same results ?
> 
> I prepose you this , If I can tune a left handed bow shooting with my right hand , with a drop away rest and get bare shafts touching at 20 - will the tune be the same for a left handed person ?
> ...


This is basically my whole point and why some people shoot certain bows better than others . The bows they shoot better are more than likely suited to there natural grip. In that grip it gives them the best forgiveness shot after shot. 

I have a buddy of mine that is an ex force recon sniper and really likes the Hoyt carbon bows. However he is one that does not like to change from his natural grip. Long story short I set him up with an Elite because I had a feeling by his grip pressure he would get along well with them. Fast forward to present, he will say today he still wishes he shot the carbons better than his Elite. Honestly, he never will due to not wanting to change his grip slightly to compensate for it. Those two bows are completely different in grip. The Elite will drill bareshafts perfect for him. The Hoyt will not regardless of how I try and tune it to the shooter.


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

A break of sorts. Observances of Archery coaches;
Don't blame the bow unless the bow is broke...perferrably hanging in pieces  Your mental attitude will get...mmmm...adjusted.
There is no "your way." It the coach's way or the highway. "They have students that really do want to improve."
Coaches are...in a world of their own. One noted he could improve this person greatly. The triple crown champion winning it all was not overly happy.
All coaches are deemed the %^&&*# ever by someone and the same coaches are proclaimed the greatest by hundreds of others.
Coach group sessions; Good for some and waste of time and money for others. Not to say the coach is lacking, but perhaps the student is that needing one on one. And a coach may not be the coach the student needs.


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## Inc. (Jul 5, 2013)

ontarget7 said:


> This is basically my whole point and why some people shoot certain bows better than others . The bows they shoot better are more than likely suited to there natural grip. In that grip it gives them the best forgiveness shot after shot.
> 
> I have a buddy of mine that is an ex force recon sniper and really likes the Hoyt carbon bows. However he is one that does not like to change from his natural grip. Long story short I set him up with an Elite because I had a feeling by his grip pressure he would get along well with them. Fast forward to present, he will say today he still wishes he shot the carbons better than his Elite. Honestly, he never will due to not wanting to change his grip slightly to compensate for it. Those two bows are completely different in grip. The Elite will drill bareshafts perfect for him. The Hoyt will not regardless of how I try and tune it to the shooter.



Why not simply tune the bow to the ex force sniper ? 
Every bow will have a natural " fall " for every archer in the hand.
No 2 hands are alike ... 
your paws are not the same as my paws , so I am still having trouble rapping my head around , how you can tune a bow , for someone else to shoot , better than they can ?
Do you have magic paws ? 
I understand you have tuned thousands , and boy do I respect it ! 
Unles we all send our bows to you we have no constant in our variables .


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## Inc. (Jul 5, 2013)

SonnyThomas said:


> A break of sorts. Observances of Archery coaches;
> Don't blame the bow unless the bow is broke...perferrably hanging in pieces  Your mental attitude will get...mmmm...adjusted.
> There is no "your way." It the coach's way or the highway. "They have students that really do want to improve."
> Coaches are...in a world of their own. One noted he could improve this person greatly. The triple crown champion winning it all was not overly happy.
> ...


Am I the receiving end of this post MR. THomas ? ...

Good coaches are everywhere, ... finding a good coach that has a great understanding of the athletes goals is another story !


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

Gentlemen.

I just finished a one-on-one seminar with an AT fella (Adam929).

I will wait for Adam929 to explain
in his own words....

about what he learned during his one-on-one seminar
and
his summary
may shed LIGHT into what shane (ontarget7) is trying to explain...

with respect to bow hand technique,
and training.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

Inc. said:


> Am I the receiving end of this post MR. THomas ? ...
> 
> Good coaches are everywhere, ... finding a good coach that has a great understanding of the athletes goals is another story !


Good coaches are actually, difficult to find.

A good coach
is a coach who can help,
is a coach who can guide,
is a coach who can generate RESULTS for the student..

where the Student reaches the next level.

If there is a personality conflict - personality mis-match..

then,
that specific COMBO of coach and student
will NOT generate results.


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## field14 (May 21, 2002)

SonnyThomas said:


> A break of sorts. Observances of Archery coaches;
> Don't blame the bow unless the bow is broke...perferrably hanging in pieces  Your mental attitude will get...mmmm...adjusted.
> There is no "your way." It the coach's way or the highway. "They have students that really do want to improve."
> Coaches are...in a world of their own. One noted he could improve this person greatly. The triple crown champion winning it all was not overly happy.
> ...


Yes, and a teacher/coach has to learn how to teach/coach BEFORE he/she can teach/coach students to learn! Just because a shooter is of a top echelon level or a "Pro Archer" doesn't mean he/she will be a great or even a good coach.

My Master's thesis is entitled "Improving Motivation Through Goal Setting". Two years of hard work in this, along with other motivational areas and advanced teaching techniques and more.

"Coaches select students, just as students select coaches"; a necessary two-way street and open communications are needed.
Some help in this is included in "ProActive Archery", Chapters 37-40. Just google "ProActive Archery" you will find it quickly. A coach cannot find out the student's initial goals without open communications and observations. Goals and objectives are mutually agreed upon between the coach and student and a plan is implemented to measure and achieve said goals and objectives. It cannot be a "goal" if it isn't measurable and realistic.
field14 (Tom D.)


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## Adam929 (Jan 4, 2011)

nuts&bolts said:


> Gentlemen.
> 
> I just finished a one-on-one seminar with an AT fella (Adam929).
> 
> ...


Al (nuts&bolts) had me experiment with different grips on my bow hand, and by shooting bare shafts and trying different grips.( more pressure, less pressure, high wrist, low wrist and so on) I was frustrated at first but after shooting and experimenting I was able to control and "steer" the bare shaft left of the target (in this case it was a weighted string hanging from target as seen in the kitchen sink tune) and right of the target without making any changes to the bow just changes to me. Once I figured out the "sweet spot" for my grip I was splitting the string with bare shafts. 
The end results showed that by making small changes in my grip I was able getting better arrow flight and tighter groups.
I will do a full write up along with before and after photos and how my shooting progressed from the small changes we made.
It really was amazing what a small change in my grip accomplished.


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## ontarget7 (Dec 30, 2009)

Inc. said:


> Why not simply tune the bow to the ex force sniper ?
> Every bow will have a natural " fall " for every archer in the hand.
> No 2 hands are alike ...
> your paws are not the same as my paws , so I am still having trouble rapping my head around , how you can tune a bow , for someone else to shoot , better than they can ?
> ...


We are talking about the most forgiveness in a set up . We already disagree that bareshaft tuning doesn't yield the most forgiveness. When the shooter is in tune to the particular grip and bareshafts are hitting with fletched, IMO that is the ultimate in forgiveness. You see this differently and that's OK. 

Why not simply tune the bow to the ex force sniper ?

You can't do both and when you are trying to achieve accuracy and kill shots on antelope at 120 + yards you need both. Again when your grip is right for a particular bow and can consistently hit with bareshafts and fletched, that is the bow you will shoot the best. In his case it is the Elite for him, even thou he likes the feel and shot better on the Carbon Hoyt's. Don't get me wrong I tune both bows up just the same with a bareshaft but if a shooter is not willing to fudge on grip for a particular bow, one will definitely be the clear winner when you shoot long range. I have customers all the time that ask me about grip when shooting a bareshaft. Its not really that hard after in tune to coach them through the right grip for a particular bow if they are trying to achieve a better level in accuracy. In some cases, like my buddy, he's just a little set in his ways and not willing to change. That's OK to, he is just limited on bow selection for the level of accuracy that he wants in a set up. 


No 2 hands are alike ... 
your paws are not the same as my paws , so I am still having trouble rapping my head around , how you can tune a bow , for someone else to shoot , better than they can ?
Do you have magic paws ? 

You can call it what you want. I call it a good tune and free coaching to get the most forgiveness out of a set up :teeth:


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## ontarget7 (Dec 30, 2009)

Adam929 said:


> Al (nuts&bolts) had me experiment with different grips on my bow hand, and by shooting bare shafts and trying different grips.( more pressure, less pressure, high wrist, low wrist and so on) I was frustrated at first but after shooting and experimenting I was able to control and "steer" the bare shaft left of the target (in this case it was a weighted string hanging from target as seen in the kitchen sink tune) and right of the target without making any changes to the bow just changes to me. Once I figured out the "sweet spot" for my grip I was splitting the string with bare shafts.
> The end results showed that by making small changes in my grip I was able getting better arrow flight and tighter groups.
> I will do a full write up along with before and after photos and how my shooting progressed from the small changes we made.
> It really was amazing what a small change in my grip accomplished.


Hi Adam

Had a feeling it was your grip all along. Glad you got it worked out :thumbs_up.


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## Slingshot (Jan 1, 2008)

I'm not sure I buy into the cam design dictating grip pressure as much as I do the grips geometry, I do realize that bows of the same brand for the most part have the same grip. 

I disagree with having to put side plate pressure or for lack of abetted word pinching the grip with your palm, thumb position may be different which may in part a slight difference in pressure. And yes changing your grip will absolutely change your impact points.

You can not have repeatable accuracy if your trying to influence your "tune" by torqueing the piss out of your grip, or twisting it at full draw because that's the only way you were able to get that bow tuned. If you are the only person able to get that chill to tune after several other qualified people tried there's something wrong with that bow, My first thought would be the riser is machined out of spec. That is not a dig at you and I understand how you were able to make it shoot, however it makes no difference unless you own that bow give it back to is owner or any of the other people that tried and the results will still be the same.

Most of us understand without correct or decent hand placement bows will not paper tune very well, but twisting the grip at full draw to achieve desired results is not the solution.


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## ontarget7 (Dec 30, 2009)

Slingshot said:


> I'm not sure I buy into the cam design dictating grip pressure as much as I do the grips geometry, I do realize that bows of the same brand for the most part have the same grip.
> 
> I disagree with having to put side plate pressure or for lack of abetted word pinching the grip with your palm, thumb position may be different which may in part a slight difference in pressure. And yes changing your grip will absolutely change your impact points.
> 
> ...


You are really missing the point. It's not like you are torquing the piss out of the bow. These changes are actually small and don't feel uncomfortable at all. There is definitely a common trait with certain cam systems and most target archers would not see this because 90% of them shoot a hybrid cam system


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## Slingshot (Jan 1, 2008)

ontarget7 said:


> You are really missing the point. It's not like you are torquing the piss out of the bow. These changes are actually small and don't feel uncomfortable at all. There is definitely a common trait with certain cam systems and most target archers would not see this because 90% of them shoot a hybrid cam system


No sir, I understand perfectly well......

When I first started competing I was shooting a original 2track binary bow tech, never heard of the term cam lean or shimming the limbs or anything else. He'll you couldn't even get on the Internet unless you went to the library lol. Anyway all my bows shot lighs out with just a few shots through paper and some minor adjustments. 

Then I started shooting hoyts and that's when I had to experiment with my grip because I just could not shoot the damn things when I first got them, i realized then it was about grip pressure and started shooting 100% better that was 10 years ago. When I started sighning contracts and paychecks for shooting my bows I had changed to a completey new bow design called the x- force. Buy then I had been shooting at professional level long enough to adjust the grip based on feel and how the bow reacted on the shot as well as impact compared to sight picture. 

My point is it takes experience to understand the slight changes that make a unbelievable difference on accuracy, however we do not need to over complicate it to the point that certain cam systems will only shoot with a certain grip. There are general ways to grip certain bows which has been explained in this thread very well, past that it's on the shooter. 

I think lately everyone is concerned with tuning so much they have seemed to forget about execution, a poorly tuned bow will group much better with great shot execution then a perfectly tuned bow with poor execution. Same goes for tuning bows, great execution makes bow tuning easy.


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## field14 (May 21, 2002)

Slingshot said:


> No sir, I understand perfectly well......
> 
> When I first started competing I was shooting a original 2track binary bow tech, never heard of the term cam lean or shimming the limbs or anything else. He'll you couldn't even get on the Internet unless you went to the library lol. Anyway all my bows shot lighs out with just a few shots through paper and some minor adjustments.
> 
> ...


Bingo! A famous teacher, professional archer, author and coach by the name of Larry Wise says the primary focus should be: "I will shoot THIS shot with proper back tension." "I will hit the center of the X" is something in the future, and you can only control the present...always remember that.
Proper hand placement is an early step in the 12 steps of form.

field14 (Tom D.)


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## Inc. (Jul 5, 2013)

ontarget7 said:


> We are talking about the most forgiveness in a set up . We already disagree that bareshaft tuning doesn't yield the most forgiveness. When the shooter is in tune to the particular grip and bareshafts are hitting with fletched, IMO that is the ultimate in forgiveness. You see this differently and that's OK.
> 
> Why not simply tune the bow to the ex force sniper ?
> 
> ...


 Thanks , again I am not knocking your theory, I am trying get a good understanding.


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

Slingshot said:


> No sir, I understand perfectly well......
> 
> When I first started competing I was shooting a original 2track binary bow tech, never heard of the term cam lean or shimming the limbs or anything else. He'll you couldn't even get on the Internet unless you went to the library lol. Anyway all my bows shot lighs out with just a few shots through paper and some minor adjustments.
> 
> ...


LORD! I was near crucified for penning such! Perhaps my title was too much; Bow tune is Secondary. As you have, my point was you had to do your part first. It was only after my write up was "cooled" that the Hooter Shooter came along and people began finding things that blew their minds. Bows tuned just to get started and grouping something of 2" at 60 yards. Properly oriented arrows for spine, weak and too stiff, grouping something of 2" at 60 yards. Granted, the weak and too stiff over properly spined arrows had a different impact point. I had asked for my article back and when called to print such guess what I said.


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

I did try rotating my hand as to find some sweet spot. What I found I have already discussed with OT7. First, counter clockwise and outstanding grouping, like grouped so tight I had to bend at least one arrow to start pulling arrows. Of 3 attempts I broke one nock and bent one pin and ripped one vane. However, groups so way left and way low I would have to adjust my sight frame so my pin was perhaps a 1/4" left of my arrow aligned to the bow string.
I then tried going clockwise. Groups were scattered and perhaps leading to high and right.
It then took a few shots to return to my normal grip and again have nock busting, pin bending groups.

Now, 3 attempts of perhaps 4 or 5 different hand positions, but how would the best trial group, way left and way low, be for bow tune if checked against paper tuning, modified French tuning or French tuning? If off and corrected would I have the same arrow slapping grouping?


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## Inc. (Jul 5, 2013)

SonnyThomas said:


> I did try rotating my hand as to find some sweet spot. What I found I have already discussed with OT7. First, counter clockwise and outstanding grouping, like grouped so tight I had to bend at least one arrow to start pulling arrows. Of 3 attempts I broke one nock and bent one pin and ripped one vane. However, groups so way left and way low I would have to adjust my sight frame so my pin was perhaps a 1/4" left of my arrow aligned to the bow string.
> I then tried going clockwise. Groups were scattered and perhaps leading to high and right.
> It then took a few shots to return to my normal grip and again have nock busting, pin bending groups.
> 
> Now, 3 attempts of perhaps 4 or 5 different hand positions, but how would the best trial group, way left and way low, be for bow tune if checked against paper tuning, modified French tuning or French tuning? If off and corrected would I have the same arrow slapping grouping?


 
Is your bow left "side " heavy or balanced at rest ? 
How are you rotating - like a motorcycle's throttle around the grip , or like a twisting punch ( changing the 45 degree angle) ?


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

I worked with Adam929 yesterday evening.

The bow was tuned by an expert tuner, outside of CA.
Adam929, obviously, lives in CA.

Adam929 will post pics of his arrow groups,
when he first arrived for his one-on-one seminar.

He was creeping, rather noticeably,
and at least to me...

quite obvious,
that Adam929 was using a DL module 1/2-inch TOO LONG, minimum.

I didn't say a THING.

I started Adam929 with my Kitchen Sink....current, latest version.
I had Adam929 go through what I call my 
"5 FOOT SHOOTING SCHOOL".

Fletched and bareshaft at 5 feet.
Fletched at 5 feet to tune windage.
Bareshaft at 5 feet to test draw length.

Adam929 passed 5 foot shooting school.
I told Adam929 that this means....with him OBVIOUSLY leaning backwards,
that this CURRENT draw length works for him...

and that he is INSIDE of 1/4-inch of a PERFECT draw length for HIM...
*as long as he shoots with a CONSISTENT leaning backwards posture.*

*Start the CLOCK, cuz Adam929 is now 5 minutes into his one-on-one seminar.*


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

AFTER Adam929 finishes and graduates from my "5 foot SHOOTING school"...

we did not move the arrow rest centershot position,
and
we did not touch the top cam yoke cable end loops..

then,
we move to 20 yard SHOOTING SCHOOL.

He shoots fletched arrow groups,
and
cuz of the INCREASED mental focus he learned,
during 5 FOOT shooting school,
he NEW 20 yard groups were at least 1/2 the original size...

when he had started 10 minutes earlier.

The purpose of 20 yard shooting school
is to see if the arrow rest centershot needs fine tuning.

NO NEED.
The expert out of state tuner NAILED the arrow rest centershot,
with a bow that had been shipped long distance.

Very Impressive work by the out of state tuner.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

Next,
I run Adam929 through my 10 YARD Creep Tuning SCHOOL.

This is where we run into a need to custom tweak.

CREEP TUNING is to put the bow OUT OF SYNC, on purpose,
to customize how the vertical misses are firing out of the bow.

Fired a fletched arrow
at an aiming spot (I put an LARGE ink spot on the target...random location on a single FITA spot target).

Makes a fresh hole in the paper target face.

I have Adam929 pull the fletched arrow.
Now,
SAME aiming spot,
he fires the bareshaft arrow.

Bareshaft POINT OF IMPACT is several INCHES low at 10 yards
and missing SIDEWAYS some.

WE end up ADD 1.5 twists to the control cable
and this FIXES the UP-DOWN miss,
and the FLETCHED and BARESHAFT are now at the SAME HEIGHT,
for POINT of IMPACT.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

Not finished with 10 YARD shooting school for Adam929.

Now,
we gotta fix the SIDEWAYS miss of the BARESHAFT at 10 YARDS.

NOW,
we tweak the yoke cable leg end loops.

Remember,
Adam929 was NOT willing to move the arrow rest centershot position...

as tuned by the EXPERT out of state tuner.

I say,
OK.

So,
we attack the SIDEWAYS miss of the bareshaft
from another direction.

THERE ARE ALWAYS MULTIPLE WAYS to fix an issue.

So,
Adam929 adds a SIGNIFICANT number of twists to the LEFT yoke cable end loop,
to PULL DOWN on the TOP AXLE, LEFT side.

Since the BARESHAFT is missing LEFT of the FLETCHED ARROW hole,
I TOLD Adam929....

we need to OVER-CORRECT
and add TOO MANY twists to the top axle,
LEFT SIDE end loop.

So,
we finally get there
and we get the BARESHAFT POINT of impact
to hit to the RIGHT,
just say 1/4-inch to the RIGHT
of the FLETCHED arrow hole in the target face.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

Sooo,
Adam929 had been ADDING twists to the TOP AXLE,
LEFT side end loop yoke cable leg.

Now,
to REDUCE The amount of over-correction,
Adam929 UNTWISTS the TOP AXLE,
RIGHT side end loop yoke cable leg.

BINGO.

ONE HOLE performance
from Adam929.

The BARESHAFT slams into the original FLETCHED arrow hole.

Adam929 has now passed my 10 YARD Creep TUning
school
and
10 YARD Shooting School.

He had to make a half twist adjustment
to the CONTROL CABLE,
to get the single hole performance,
with the FLETCHED
and BARESHAFT arrow....NAILING the same hole
in the FITA single spot TARGET face,
10 YARDS away.

Adam929 graduates from 10 YARD shooting school.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

Now,
the point of this LOOOOONG POST.

So,
we FIRST check the arrow rest centershot position
with my TWO ARROW TRICK,
and we discover that the arrow rest centershot is CLOSE to dead parallel,
but NOT EXACTLY.

Adam929 decides to LEAVE the arrow rest centershot position alone.

I normally would check TOP CAM LEAN angles,
but...
since the bow was expertly tuned,
we skip that step.

So,
Adam929 has graduated from 5 FOOT shooting School - PART 1
(TEST and adjust SIGHT pins windage....he spent a LOT of time fine tuning sight pins windage).

*So,
Adam929 has graduated from 5 FOOT shooting School - PART 2
(TEST the draw length setting....Adam929 is leaning BACKWARDS significantly, but he PASSES the DL test at 5 FEET).
This is only 5 MINUTES into his one-on-one seminar. This is important...and I will explain LATER.*

So,
Adam929 next, graduated from my 20 YARD shooting school (test arrow rest centershot position).
No changes to the arrow rest centershot.
EXPERTLY adjusted by the OUT of STATE tuner.

So,
next we have Adam929 try my 10 YARD CREEP TUNING school.
We have adjustments to make, and he makes 1.5 extra twists to fix the UP-DOWN difference
in point of impact....for FLETCHED and BARESHAFT.

So,
next we have Adam929 try my 10 YARD YOke Tuning School,
and we make NOTICEABLE adjustments to the Yoke Cable Legs 
(noticeable number of EXTRA twists on the LEFT, and remove a half twist on the RIGHT yoke leg).

RESULTS based tuning,
and Adam929 gets the FLETCHED arrow 
and the BARESHAFT arrow to hit the SAME HOLE in the target face,
at 10 yards.

OUTSTANDING shooting by Adam929.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

10 FOOT SHOOTING SCHOOL.

The FINAL part of STAGE I training.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

The bow has been RESULTS based tuned
so that ADAM929 can shoot a FLETCHED arrow
and a BARESHAFT arrow into the SAME HOLE
in the target face at 10 YARDS.

This is TIGHT shooting.

TUNING MAKES A HUGE difference,
in the hands of an AVERAGE,
every day hunter/shooter.

Adam929 is NOT a championship level shooter.
Adam929 is NOT a sponsored, expert level shooter.

Adam929 is an average, every day "JOE" that wants to shoot just a little bit better,
cuz in his own words, he wants his accuracy as TIGHT as possible,
cuz he is a hunter,
and his typical shot distance is 20-60 yards.

So,
WHY is 10 FOOT SHOOTING SCHOOL...

the LAST part of my STAGE I training?


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

Inc. said:


> Is your bow left "side " heavy or balanced at rest ?
> How are you rotating - like a motorcycle's throttle around the grip , or like a twisting punch ( changing the 45 degree angle) ?


Standard equiped more or less hunting bow, my play toy. Pearson TX4 with 9" bar Sure Loc sight frame and 8", 11 ounce NAP Shock Blocker (hydralic with flex mount). Bulky grip panels removed, but tacky grip cover still in place. 
Changing 45 degree angle - Counter clockwise meaning more palm contact - like 25 degrees from 6:00 and I guess more like getting more side thumb pressure as OT7 relates. Clock wise less heal contact like 60 degrees from 6:00 - if thumb held out would point to say 2:00.


----------



## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

10 FOOT shooting school
is EXTREMELY difficult...

can be EXTREMELY frustrating to graduate from.

I told Adam929 that he JUST fired a FLETCHED arrow
and a BARESHAFT arrow into a single hole,
the SAME hole (pulled the FLETCHED arrow out FIRST)...

at 10 YARDS.

He had just GRADUATED from 10 YARD shooting school.

So...

I hung a SINGLE STRAND of DACRON B50 bowstring,
and pinned it to a target,
10 FEET away,
just 120 - INCHES away.

WRAPPED the bowstring SINGLE STRAND around a nail, at the TOP.
WRAPPED the bowstring SINGLE STRAND around a nail, at the bottom.

I said,
since you JUST graduated from 10 YARD shooting school,
with a FLETCHED and a BARESHAFT...

I said...

SPLIT THE SINGLE strand of bowstring material...
*with a BARESHAFT.*


NO CHANGES allowed to the sight pins.
NO CHANGES allowed to the yoke cable end legs.
NO CHANGES allowed to the arrow rest.

ROLL
PITCH
YAW




THESE are the ONLY changes
allowed...

during 10 FOOT Shooting School.

LEARN how to STEER the bareshaft POINT of impact
down to the THOUSANDTHS of an inch,
shooting at a SINGLE STRAND
of bowstring material...
just 10 FEET
just 120-INCHES away.

hehehehehe.


----------



## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

This is what ontarget7 has been trying to explain.

I have been also researching this area of shooting,
and came up with my OWN training exercise
for my ADVANCED students.

This is EXTREMELY difficult to do.

This will DEFINITELY school you
into the TINY changes necessary
to get a BARESHAFT to TOUCH the side of the single strand of bowstring material.

I got Adam929 to the POINT
where he LEARNED how to STEER,
the bareshaft to TOUCH the LEFT side of the single strand of bowstring material...

ON COMMAND....again and again.

I got Adam929 to the POINT
where he LEARNED how to STEER,
the bareshaft to TOUCH the RIGHT side of the single strand of bowstring material...

ON COMMAND....again and again.


Getting the BARESHAFT to SPLIT the single strand of bowstring material...
the FIRST time took 5 minutes of training.

However,
I told him that it doesn't count,
until he can do it TWICE.

hehehehehe.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

After 1 HOUR of training
during my 10 FOOT shooting SCHOOL...

Adam929 was able to SPLIT the single strand of bowstring material
TWO TIMES in a ROW.

AMAZING.



This is MY pic,
using a DST 40 shooting a Carbon Express Nano XR 410 10 feet away.

Took me 30 minutes to do it twice.

Adam929 split the single strand of bowstring material 4 times,
inside of an hour....with the LAST few minutes of that hour..

splitting the single strand of bowstring material TWICE,
in a row.

AMAZING shooting.

*ROLL
PITCH 
YAW

10 FOOT shooting SCHOOL. *

Steering a BARESHAFT with EXTREME precision
and CONTROL,
firing at a single strand of bowstring,
10 FEET away....

by finding the SHOOTER's sweet spot.

WE can learn from pics of Levi Morgan.

*We must LEARN general principles,
and then,
apply the lesson to each INDIVIDUAL shooter.*

I call it my 10 FOOT shooting school.

This is what ontarget7 is talking about.
Training bow hand GRIP technique.

TUNING matters.
Training matters.

*Must have both....especially for the average JOE.*


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## Inc. (Jul 5, 2013)

nuts&bolts said:


> Sooo,
> Adam929 had been ADDING twists to the TOP AXLE,
> LEFT side end loop yoke cable leg.
> 
> ...


Great progress , I am sure its the best investment he has made in archery ! 
What is adams set up / arrows / rest ?
We have touched on this a bit in the past , how does method carry over to a blade and target set up ? I am fairy sure I can BST ( bare shaft tune ) a blade an 27's it would just be an ugly center shot , and crazy cam lean ? They might hold out to 10 yards ? 
I ll give it a whirl in a few and see where it stands.

Do you have any base control movements to apply at this time / i.e. - bare shaft hits high right = yaw counter clock wise 

also in your roll , pitch , yaw - are we working with the yellow rod being the bow grip ?


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

Will see if I can bow out of this. If I were a newbie I couldn't run fast enough. Sorry, but that's the way I feel about it. That not natural and rocket science.... You get right down to it, archery is simple. People make it hard.


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## Inc. (Jul 5, 2013)

SonnyThomas said:


> Standard equiped more or less hunting bow, my play toy. Pearson TX4 with 9" bar Sure Loc sight frame and 8", 11 ounce NAP Shock Blocker (hydralic with flex mount). Bulky grip panels removed, but tacky grip cover still in place.
> Changing 45 degree angle - Counter clockwise meaning more palm contact - like 25 degrees from 6:00 and I guess more like getting more side thumb pressure as OT7 relates. Clock wise less heal contact like 60 degrees from 6:00 - if thumb held out would point to say 2:00.


good explanation - 
My natural grip has always run to the thumb side of the pocket created by my life line. 

This seems to be the route Lee is pushing the grip , note the thumb on Brady - right side 
View attachment 1804184


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## ontarget7 (Dec 30, 2009)

nuts&bolts said:


> After 1 HOUR of training
> during my 10 FOOT shooting SCHOOL...
> 
> Adam929 was able to SPLIT the single strand of bowstring material
> ...


That is all I do, results based tuning and completely agree with that. What I do find is when going from 10 yards to 20 your grip will really show up. Sometimes you can have it perfect at 10 yards, then when you get to 20 you find you might have over compensated a twist or two for lateral nock travel. It will be apparent at 20 yards when this happens and this is when the grip comes into play. The reason I say this, is your goal is perfect arrow flight the moment the arrow is released. I do most my results based tuning strictly at 20 yards now because of grip. I can evaluate the grip quicker at that distance if there is an issue. When you have an arrow miss left to right slightly does not necessarily mean you need a rest or yoke adjustment. It might just be the slight change in grip, so I encourage when you are close to work on grip first to see what results you get. When everything is right you will be perfect at the short range as well as 20 yards.


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## Inc. (Jul 5, 2013)

ontarget7 said:


> That is all I do, results based tuning and completely agree with that. What I do find is when going from 10 yards to 20 your grip will really show up. Sometimes you can have it perfect at 10 yards, then when you get to 20 you find you might have over compensated a twist or two for lateral nock travel. It will be apparent at 20 yards when this happens and this is when the grip comes into play. The reason I say this, is your goal is perfect arrow flight the moment the arrow is released. I do most my results based tuning strictly at 20 yards now because of grip. I can evaluate the grip quicker at that distance if there is an issue. When you have an arrow miss left to right slightly does not necessarily mean you need a rest or yoke adjustment. It might just be the slight change in grip, so I encourage when you are close to work on grip first to see what results you get. When everything is right you will be perfect at the short range as well as 20 yards.


How does one access if it is the bow or the grip


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## Adam929 (Jan 4, 2011)

Inc. said:


> Great progress , I am sure its the best investment he has made in archery !
> What is adams set up / arrows / rest ?
> We have touched on this a bit in the past , how does method carry over to a blade and target set up ? I am fairy sure I can BST ( bare shaft tune ) a blade an 27's it would just be an ugly center shot , and crazy cam lean ? They might hold out to 10 yards ?
> I ll give it a whirl in a few and see where it stands.
> ...


my setup last night was a Spyder Turbo at 70#'s set a 30" draw, axis 300 arrows and a hoyt qad rest.


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## Adam929 (Jan 4, 2011)

nuts&bolts said:


> I worked with Adam929 yesterday evening.
> 
> The bow was tuned by an expert tuner, outside of CA.
> Adam929, obviously, lives in CA.
> ...


first three arrows fired when I arrived, i would like to think the groups are usaully better, but I wont stretch the truth, I am just not that good.








here is the group after the 5 yard school and increrased mental focus. no change to anything on the bow just to me.


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## Adam929 (Jan 4, 2011)

Here is the 2 bare shafts splitting the string at just 10'. This was after some minor changes to the bow, and some major changes to me.


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## Adam929 (Jan 4, 2011)

Here is my bare shaft and fletched to start








And here is after some small adjustments
To the bow and my grip









We removed the fletched arrow to prevent a damaged arrow but Alan wrote on the target face for reference.


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## Slingshot (Jan 1, 2008)

Inc. said:


> How does one access if it is the bow or the grip


It can be the bow or the grip, shooters choice I guess. If you change the grip it will change where your shots impact, if you don't change your grip move the sight.

At this point even I'm confused....lol 

Repeatable grip is what matters most, the bow will tell you what that is...


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## Inc. (Jul 5, 2013)

ontarget7 said:


> This comes with results based tuning. I have been doing it quite awhile now so it is easy for me to determine from the two just from the reaction of the bareshaft. Within a few shots at 20 yards I can determine if it is my grip or a yoke adjustment .
> 
> Some feel you need to just shoot what feels comfortable to the individual. That's fine if you are not looking for the most forgiveness and accuracy out of a bow. It is quite easy to adjust to a grip and make it repeatable. Within a few weeks of shooting daily these changes become second nature.




Re phrase - Who can I or anyone else determine if it is the bow or the grip that needs to be adjusted ? 
Lets say bare shaft is hitting 2 inches right ...


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## Reverend (Nov 2, 2004)

I understand the theory of finding the bow's sweet spot, BUT I would like to clarify something: 
You're suggesting making ever-so-minute changes to your hand position? Correct? 
You are *not* suggesting intentionally adding pressure to your thumb, or your hand… or in other words "introducing torque" to your grip on purpose? 
The hand, no matter what position, should be *completely relaxed*.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

Slingshot said:


> It can be the bow or the grip, shooters choice I guess. If you change the grip it will change where your shots impact, if you don't change your grip move the sight.
> 
> At this point even I'm confused....lol
> 
> Repeatable grip is what matters most, the bow will tell you what that is...


No.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

Inc. said:


> Re phrase - Who can I or anyone else determine if it is the bow or the grip that needs to be adjusted ?
> Lets say bare shaft is hitting 2 inches right ...


Step 1.

Try Kitchen Sink Tuning.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

Inc. said:


> Re phrase - Who can I or anyone else determine if it is the bow or the grip that needs to be adjusted ?
> Lets say bare shaft is hitting 2 inches right ...


Step 1...Try Kitchen Sink Tuning FIRST.

Step 2...Try Creep Tuning SECOND

Now...you are TUNED.
Now you can GROUP tune at 60 yards...if you wish.

Get your bow tuned to the BEST OF YOUR TUNING ABILITY.
Paper Tuned.
French Tuned
Walkback Tuned
Eyeball Tuned.

TUNE YOUR BOW as BEST as you can.

When your Bow is TUNED to the BEST OF YOUR ABILITY....

Try my 10 FOOT shooting school.

IF you cannot SPLIT THE single strand of bowstring material
At
10 FEET
120-INCHES...

IT IS ALL YOU
the shooter.

LEARN what you need to do to STEER a bareshaft
To always TOUCH
The left side of the single strand of bowstring.

LEARN what you need to do to STEER a bareshaft
To always aTouch
The right side of a single strand of bowstring material.

MASTER what you need to do to 

SPLIT A SINGLE STRAND of bowstring material.

When you can CONTROL the POINT OF IMPACT
for a bareshaft...

At Ten Feet
At 120-inches.....

Then...your arrow groups
Will approach what ontarget7 can do.

A consistent grip is ONLY THE BEGINNING level
For shooting.

Controlling
The POINT OF IMPACT
For a bareshaft....

This is ADVANCED training
For the FEW
Who can handle the difficulty level.

This is NOT for everyone.

PM Adam929... and he can explain.


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## Slingshot (Jan 1, 2008)

nuts&bolts said:


> Step 1...Try Kitchen Sink Tuning FIRST.
> 
> Step 2...Try Creep Tuning SECOND
> 
> ...


I want to be clear...I completely agree with you and fully understand what you are explaining. 

I just never had that much of an issue getting any of my bows tuned, maybe I've just been lucky. Or maybe my bows could be tuned better but I've had very good luck shooting bare shafts with fletched shafts without a ton of effort. 

I have never really thought about steering bare shafts with my grip, just group tuning once I've had good paper tears with fletched arrows.

The last two bows I've had were shooting bare shafts with fletched shafts in under 30 min...the first was a prime centroid which may tune easier by design but it shot perfect bullet holes out of the box and after creep and walk back tuning I started with bare shafts and after firing a fletched shaft first, and promptly split it with the bare shaft that's at 20 yards. I figured that was pretty good so moved to thirty and continued to break nocks so I quit, called it good enough.

Second is my hunting bow a Mathews creed, after changing strings timing creep tuning and one small yoke adjustment I did not have to repress the bow to get it paper tuned and shooting bare shafts with fletched at 20 yards.

So I will try to steer my bare shafts next time I get the chance, what I don't understand is why I need to steer them if they group with fletched shafts. 

Please explain thank you


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## straight2it (Nov 30, 2010)

Today, I increased my pressure going into the grip (not the actual gripping the grip) and ended up with tighter groups. I moved my anchor back a little on my jaw thus increasing the pressure on my hand and it made the shot far more stable. I understand torque can be cause by influencing the shot holding onto the grip too tight, but I was just pushing my hand a little firmer into the grip. Here's a pic shot out at 60yds.


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## straight2it (Nov 30, 2010)

Today, I increased my pressure going into the grip (not the actual gripping the grip) and ended up with tighter groups. I moved my anchor back a little on my jaw thus increasing the pressure on my hand and it made the shot far more stable. I understand torque can be cause by influencing the shot holding onto the grip too tight, but I was just pushing my hand a little firmer into the grip. Here's a pic shot out at 60yds.


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## ontarget7 (Dec 30, 2009)

Inc. said:


> How does one access if it is the bow or the grip


This comes with results based tuning. I have been doing it quite awhile now so it is easy for me to determine from the two just from the reaction of the bareshaft. Within a few shots at 20 yards I can determine if it is my grip or a yoke adjustment . 

Some feel you need to just shoot what feels comfortable to the individual. That's fine if you are not looking for the most forgiveness and accuracy out of a bow. It is quite easy to adjust to a grip and make it repeatable. Within a few weeks of shooting daily these changes become second nature.


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## ontarget7 (Dec 30, 2009)

Inc. said:


> Re phrase - Who can I or anyone else determine if it is the bow or the grip that needs to be adjusted ?
> Lets say bare shaft is hitting 2 inches right ...



Depends on the angle of the bareshaft in the target. Generally speaking if the angle is moderate and within 2" from left to right of dead center I will make slight grip adjustments. Now if this grip adjustment impacts the same point from left to right but a slight tail right I will make maybe 1/2 twist in my left yoke. When you find that sweet spot in your grip and are in tune to perfection the bareshaft will fly as true as the fletched, impact in the target will be identical


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## ontarget7 (Dec 30, 2009)

straight2it said:


> Today, I increased my pressure going into the grip (not the actual gripping the grip) and ended up with tighter groups. I moved my anchor back a little on my jaw thus increasing the pressure on my hand and it made the shot far more stable. I understand torque can be cause by influencing the shot holding onto the grip too tight, but I was just pushing my hand a little firmer into the grip. Here's a pic shot out at 60yds.
> 
> 
> View attachment 1804506


Very Nice ! 
By putting more pressure to the thumb pad you are actually causing a clockwise rotation that I find perfect for a hybrid cam bow


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## straight2it (Nov 30, 2010)

ontarget7 said:


> Very Nice !
> By putting more pressure to the thumb pad you are actually causing a clockwise rotation that I find perfect for a hybrid cam bow


Thanks Shane! It felt good having a consistent solid grip that removed torquing left or right.


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## Reverend (Nov 2, 2004)

Reverend said:


> I understand the theory of finding the bow's sweet spot, BUT I would like to clarify something:
> You're suggesting making ever-so-minute changes to your hand position? Correct?
> You are *not* suggesting intentionally adding pressure to your thumb, or your hand… or in other words "introducing torque" to your grip on purpose?
> The hand, no matter what position, should be *completely relaxed*.


^^^


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## ontarget7 (Dec 30, 2009)

Yes, you are correct. However some bows depending on the amount of cam lean will need added thumb pressure or a counterclockwise rotation to get the most out of them. 

In theory completely relaxed is best but not for all bows. A perfect example of this is the 2 track system. Guys that have had issues shooting a bullet hole or bareshafts with fletched generally will have better luck when they take their thumb and touch their index finger. All of a sudden the bullet hole that was so hard to achieve becomes surprisingly easy. You don't have to touch your thumb to index finger but it does give you an idea of the counterclockwise rotation needed sometimes.


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## chevman (Nov 3, 2006)

All of this can only be done with the properly spined arrows...correct? I mean, can you take a 2712 cut at 28" and expect it to paper and bare shaft tune?


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## ontarget7 (Dec 30, 2009)

chevman said:


> All of this can only be done with the properly spined arrows...correct? I mean, can you take a 2712 cut at 28" and expect it to paper and bare shaft tune?


Yes, the right dynamic spine needed


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## Reverend (Nov 2, 2004)

ontarget7 said:


> Yes, you are correct. However some bows depending on the amount of cam lean will need added thumb pressure or a counterclockwise rotation to get the most out of them.
> 
> In theory completely relaxed is best but not for all bows. A perfect example of this is the 2 track system. Guys that have had issues shooting a bullet hole or bareshafts with fletched generally will have better luck when they take their thumb and touch their index finger. All of a sudden the bullet hole that was so hard to achieve becomes surprisingly easy. You don't have to touch your thumb to index finger but it does give you an idea of the counterclockwise rotation needed sometimes.


Shane please don't misunderstand my questions as a challenge to your theory. I'm trying to learn… and frankly, you're introducing a concept that goes against what we've learned about a completely relaxed hand. I'm not disputing your findings, I'd just like to keep the discussion going… and perhaps learn a little more. My main reservation in applying a little thumb pressure is problem of consistency. I don't see how you can apply the same exact pressure from shot to shot? I wonder how this is "repeatable?" 

Secondly, couldn't some of the bows that require the thumb pressure be "yoke tuned" to enable the relaxed grip? I realize that on some two-track systems, there is no yoke… but how about those bows with yokes? 

Thirdly, I know you (and me as well) favor tuning down the center. Maybe these bows weren't designed to tune down the center? When you factor in the cable guard induced torque, I don't see how you can completely eliminate some sort of cam lean from brace to full draw on these systems. Am I missing something here? 
Finally, what are your thoughts about simply replacing the grips on these bows with one that has a slight angle in the throat and palm section? This would theorically allow the shooter to have a perfectly relaxed grip. Also this would add that ever so slight left twist to the riser. Isn't this in effect what that thumb pressure is doing? Yes? No?


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## ontarget7 (Dec 30, 2009)

Reverend said:


> Shane please don't misunderstand my questions as a challenge to your theory. I'm trying to learn… and frankly, you're introducing a concept that goes against what we've learned about a completely relaxed hand. I'm not disputing your findings, I'd just like to keep the discussion going… and perhaps learn a little more. My main reservation in applying a little thumb pressure is problem of consistency. I don't see how you can apply the same exact pressure from shot to shot? I wonder how this is "repeatable?"
> 
> Secondly, couldn't some of the bows that require the thumb pressure be "yoke tuned" to enable the relaxed grip? I realize that on some two-track systems, there is no yoke… but how about those bows with yokes?
> 
> ...


You have to take into perspective what I am referring to. This is the most forgiveness possible in arrow flight and this won't happen unless your grip is right. This is not to say you won't shoot good groups without it. I have just seen huge differences in my personal shooting and others that come to me for instruction. I have found all bows have a sweet spot and tuning to that sweet spot for grip equals the most forgiveness in a given set up. This is all about the human factor and what is comforting and non torquing to one person might not be for another. Just like we find the sweet spot when yoke tuning, I suggest to get the most forgiveness out of a set up we find that same sweet spot in our grip. I have numerous people come to me personally and want their bow tuned to them. If the grip is not right this will not happen and still hit peak forgiveness. I have then taken those same individuals and tuned to the point where you get true arrow flight, when tune and grip are in union together. When this is done it is like a light bulb that goes off and they never thought they would shoot as good as they do when these things are working together.


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## ontarget7 (Dec 30, 2009)

ontarget7 said:


> You have to take into perspective what I am referring to. This is the most forgiveness possible in arrow flight and this won't happen unless your grip is right. This is not to say you won't shoot good groups without it. I have just seen huge differences in my personal shooting and others that come to me for instruction. I have found all bows have a sweet spot and tuning to that sweet spot for grip equals the most forgiveness in a given set up. This is all about the human factor and what is comforting and non torquing to one person might not be for another. Just like we find the sweet spot when yoke tuning, I suggest to get the most forgiveness out of a set up we find that same sweet spot in our grip. I have numerous people come to me personally and want their bow tuned to them. If the grip is not right this will not happen and still hit peak forgiveness. I have then taken those same individuals and tuned to the point where you get true arrow flight, when tune and grip are in union together. When this is done it is like a light bulb that goes off and they never thought they would shoot as good as they do when these things are working together.


Just to add to this, when done properly your hand will be relaxed. It's basically the point you make contact with will cause the rotation either counterclockwise or clockwise. Everything else will be relaxed. I should say with the exception of bows with excessive cam lean that can not be worked out, these require sometimes more than normal rotation to achieve the forgiveness I am referring to.


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## Hoytalpha35 (Apr 5, 2011)

ontarget7 said:


> Yes, the right dynamic spine needed


This is with regards to most forgiveness shooting and tuning correct? 

So with a typical ultra stiff Goldtip target are will it be a pain bareshaft tuning?

Just in the process of tuning my supra max DC with ultra 22's 100 grains up front, grips coming along shall see what my shooting and walk back tune look like tomorrow. Able to only do a bareshaft tune at 7 yards so far


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## ontarget7 (Dec 30, 2009)

Hoytalpha35 said:


> This is with regards to most forgiveness shooting and tuning correct?
> 
> So with a typical ultra stiff Goldtip target are will it be a pain bareshaft tuning?
> 
> Just in the process of tuning my supra max DC with ultra 22's 100 grains up front, grips coming along shall see what my shooting and walk back tune look like tomorrow. Able to only do a bareshaft tune at 7 yards so far


Stiff is fine, I have never had a problem with them and bareshafts.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

Hoytalpha35 said:


> This is with regards to most forgiveness shooting and tuning correct?
> 
> So with a typical ultra stiff Goldtip target are will it be a pain bareshaft tuning?
> 
> Just in the process of tuning my supra max DC with ultra 22's 100 grains up front, grips coming along shall see what my shooting and walk back tune look like tomorrow. Able to only do a bareshaft tune at 7 yards so far


For field points and glue in target points,
and the CRAZY STIFF GoldTip target arrows...

the arrows CAN be tuned to work well,
but they will be SUPER DUPER picky.


The correct "dynamic spine" is very important for Fixed Blade Broadheads.

For TARGET arrows,
you can shoot RIDICULOUSLY stiff 250 spine or 200 spine GoldTip Target arrows
at 50 lbs of draw weight, and any draw length.

Cut the raw carbon arrow tube say 3/4-inches past your arrow rest support (blade tip, drop away arm)
and
for GoldTip Series 22s or X-Cutters,
I typically use 90 grains or 100 grains, total point weight.

So,
why and HOW can these RIDICULOUSLY STIFF GoldTip carbon arrows work?

STEP 1) arrow rest centershot must be PERFECT....micro tune arrow rest helps TREMENDOUSLY

STEP 2) gotta dial in the top cam lean angles to PERFECTION...tune the yoke legs, IF YOU HAVE them, to get BEST results

STEP 3) must dial in the draw length to PERFECTION...using whatever DL is "comfy" will NOT work, with the GoldTip Series 22s or X-Cutters
try my 5 foot draw length test.

Do my SIX STEPS to perfection,
and the Ultra Series 22s should work just FINE.

The key seems to be to cut the arrow tube so that you have a SHORT overhang,
about 3/4-inch past your arrow rest support.


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## ontarget7 (Dec 30, 2009)

nuts&bolts said:


> For field points and glue in target points,
> and the CRAZY STIFF GoldTip target arrows...
> 
> the arrows CAN be tuned to work well,
> ...



The right dynamic spine is great but to be honest I don't see an over stiff arrow being that picky. I can get very good results with them as well.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

ontarget7 said:


> The right dynamic spine is great but to be honest I don't see an over stiff arrow being that picky. I can get very good results with them as well.


Folks who have less skills, beginning and intermediate shooters,
have great difficulty shooting the GoldTip Series 22s and X-Cutters.

Draw length has to be correct,
otherwise the arrow groups at 80 yards with the Series 22s can go quite WIDE to one side.

Shooting the Series 22s or X-Cutters
as a bareshaft at 60 yards....

can group nice and tight with the FLETCHED,
for the advanced shooter...

and
for the less skilled shooter,
shooting a GoldTip X-Cutter Bareshaft at 60 yards,
is not a good idea.

Just sayin

hehehehehe

On a good day,
bareshafts at 60 yards are no problem.

On a bad day,
I've been known to fling a bareshaft Series 22 say 4 FT WIDE (off the bale).


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## ontarget7 (Dec 30, 2009)

nuts&bolts said:


> Folks who have less skills, beginning and intermediate shooters,
> have great difficulty shooting the GoldTip Series 22s and X-Cutters.
> 
> Draw length has to be correct,
> ...


It all comes back to finding the right grip for the particular bow


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## sean1 (Dec 5, 2009)

Shane, after talking to you I searched a few sites for some pictures. I think reo wildes site has some very good pictures of the grip you explained to me. I can really see a difference now. Not huge, but noticeable


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## ontarget7 (Dec 30, 2009)

sean1 said:


> Shane, after talking to you I searched a few sites for some pictures. I think reo wildes site has some very good pictures of the grip you explained to me. I can really see a difference now. Not huge, but noticeable


That's great bro ! You might also have to adjust your tune slightly to accommodate the right grip for that bow. Take your time and enjoy the progress. Let me no if you have any questions


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## Hoytalpha35 (Apr 5, 2011)

Did some playing with torque tuning last night to see the effect of my grip. Has pretty wide grouping at 7 yards. Moved the rest back as per what was required based on my results. One thing I noticed that I think follows what OnTarget saying is that having more thumb pressure had a ton more forgiveness as compared to more hand/finger pressure. Could get away with a lot of thumb pressure and not much hand pressure. 

Have some Ultra 22's that I'll try at 3/4" past the rest see what happens before I build my new dozen.


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## Reverend (Nov 2, 2004)

sean1 said:


> Shane, after talking to you I searched a few sites for some pictures. I think reo wildes site has some very good pictures of the grip you explained to me. I can really see a difference now. Not huge, but noticeable


This one of the pics you're referring to? 
http://www.reowilde.com/www.reowilde.com/Photo_Albums/Pages/Vegas_2011.html#34


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## ontarget7 (Dec 30, 2009)

Reverend said:


> This one of the pics you're referring to?
> http://www.reowilde.com/www.reowilde.com/Photo_Albums/Pages/Vegas_2011.html#34


That is another good pic of the grip on the Hybrid cams that I am referring to.


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## DEESHAW (Feb 5, 2008)

Anyone else notice how far back Reo is leaning?,,, Reminds me of the hows my form posts! if some didn't realize it was him he would get lots of help! lol


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## Jaliv92 (Apr 2, 2013)

DEESHAW said:


> Anyone else notice how far back Reo is leaning?,,, Reminds me of the hows my form posts! if some didn't realize it was him he would get lots of help! lol


Lol


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## Hoytalpha35 (Apr 5, 2011)

Christoper Perkins is just as bad, but I ain't gonna tell a good Canadian guy that shoots lights out to change.


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## hatchettjack (Jan 16, 2012)

Reo said that he leans like that because all the world class offhand rifle shooters do it for stability


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## sean1 (Dec 5, 2009)

http://www.reowilde.com/www.reowilde.com/Photo_Albums/Pages/Lancaster_2012.html#4
Actually the one I saw was this one. But the other shows it too


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## sean1 (Dec 5, 2009)

Sorry. Not sure why it didn't do it right. Flip through those. That's at Lancaster. There is a good shot of him at full draw from the front


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## field14 (May 21, 2002)

DEESHAW said:


> Anyone else notice how far back Reo is leaning?,,, Reminds me of the hows my form posts! if some didn't realize it was him he would get lots of help! lol


Reo isn't really "leaning back" all that far, folks....Check this REAL leaning back out. The person in the photo is the Professional Archer great Jack Lancaster, whom, in the mid 1970's was nearly unbeatable on a FIELD course.
THIS may be construed as "leaning back." ROFLMAO. I think the bow is a Jennings T-Star Compound (could be wrong on the model, but, anyways it is a Jennings 4-wheeler), ATA around 48-50", Letoff MIGHT have been 35%. Double loop rope release (concho); notice HIGH wrist grip and no sidebars or counter-weights, etc.


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## Reverend (Nov 2, 2004)

Would love to see some pics up close of what Shane is talking about.


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## Reverend (Nov 2, 2004)

Shane you mentioned finding that sweet spot with bare shafts? How far out, and what are you looking for?


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## sean1 (Dec 5, 2009)

http://archery-news.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/12/reo-wilde.jpg
http://bloximages.chicago2.vip.town...1df-934f-001cc4c002e0/4c6b5aa7b16fd.image.jpg

Maybe these will come through


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

sean1 said:


> http://archery-news.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/12/reo-wilde.jpg
> http://bloximages.chicago2.vip.town...1df-934f-001cc4c002e0/4c6b5aa7b16fd.image.jpg
> 
> Maybe these will come through


First pic of Reo.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

sean1 said:


> http://archery-news.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/12/reo-wilde.jpg
> http://bloximages.chicago2.vip.town...1df-934f-001cc4c002e0/4c6b5aa7b16fd.image.jpg
> 
> Maybe these will come through


2nd pic of Reo.


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## ontarget7 (Dec 30, 2009)

Reverend said:


> Shane you mentioned finding that sweet spot with bare shafts? How far out, and what are you looking for?


Those pics that were posted are really good pics. As far as distance, if you are dynamically spined right and can get results with a bareshaft and fletched with identical entry into the target at 20 yards you are golden. This is what I strive for when tuning and finding the right grip for a certain bow.


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## Reverend (Nov 2, 2004)

Thanks Shane.
One more follow-up question...
By clockwise you mean that the riser is ever so slightly pointing "right," because of less thumb pressure, and more hand pressure.
And by counter-clockwise, it is ever so slightly pointing "left," because of more thumb pressure, and less hand pressure. 
Is this correct?


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## sean1 (Dec 5, 2009)

I believe he means turn your bow hand slightly more clockwise in order to have the grip of your bow more toward the thumb pad side of your hand and counter-clockwise to have more pressure in the life line of your hand. This would be for a right handed shooter. Opposite for a lefty.


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## Inc. (Jul 5, 2013)

Both images of Reos mallets seem to show the index knuckle above the thumb, the left side of the riser grip is riding his life line. This would indicate a massive amount of clock wise rotation . If you take a peek and have a look about 12" outside that left hand you will notice there is almost 2 lb of steel hanging out there. Again requiring just a tad bit of clock wise direction. 
Biggest thing I see is a soft relaxed hand with the thumb pointing at the target. The thumb being straight indicates either a bit of " " tension " - muscle usage or it is on the receiving end of the Vulcan pinch .
In other words the hand is limp and the riser is applying pressure in the exact point to create this pointy thumb.
This leads me to the question is 0T7 defining " the launch pad " I fail to see how a tiny bit of thumb pad pressure will effect a set up unless you are creating a " solid , repeatable sling. " launch pad ?


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## Reverend (Nov 2, 2004)

Yes now I remember reading that. Thanks Sean.


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## ontarget7 (Dec 30, 2009)

Inc. said:


> This leads me to the question is 0T7 defining " the launch pad " I fail to see how a tiny bit of thumb pad pressure will effect a set up unless you are creating a " solid , repeatable sling. " launch pad ?


You don't have to belief me bro, it is really all right. Seems like you are searching very hard to go against what i am trying to show others. Trust me, once you get the grip repeatable to that sweet spot it is a noticeable difference in your shooting ability.

Again every cam system is different but the pics of Reo are spot on for the type of grip and pressure needed on the Hoyts.


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## ontarget7 (Dec 30, 2009)

sean1 said:


> I believe he means turn your bow hand slightly more clockwise in order to have the grip of your bow more toward the thumb pad side of your hand and counter-clockwise to have more pressure in the life line of your hand. This would be for a right handed shooter. Opposite for a lefty.


I explained this to sean1 on the phone and he pretty much summed it up. Clockwise for hybrid cams and counterclockwise for 2 track systems. Again, I want to reiterate that it is small in the rotation and positioning in general to get to that sweet spot but noticeable.


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## ontarget7 (Dec 30, 2009)

Reverend said:


> Thanks Shane.
> One more follow-up question...
> By clockwise you mean that the riser is ever so slightly pointing "right," because of less thumb pressure, and more hand pressure.
> And by counter-clockwise, it is ever so slightly pointing "left," because of more thumb pressure, and less hand pressure.
> Is this correct?


Not a problem

Answered in the post above ^^^^^^^^^


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## Reverend (Nov 2, 2004)

ontarget7 said:


> Again every cam system is different but *the pics of Reo are spot on for the type of grip and pressure needed on the Hoyts.*


Shane I'm curious if you can tell whether or not someone has the right grip by looking at a pic? 
In other words, if I posted a pic of my grip, could you tell if it is in the sweet spot for that particualr bow?


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## fresnohunter (Jul 6, 2010)

Inc. said:


> Biggest thing I see is a soft relaxed hand with the thumb pointing at the target. The thumb being straight indicates either a bit of " " tension " - muscle usage or it is on the receiving end of the *Vulcan pinch *.


haha I think you need to take the Borgs implants out


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## ontarget7 (Dec 30, 2009)

Reverend said:


> Shane I'm curious if you can tell whether or not someone has the right grip by looking at a pic?
> In other words, if I posted a pic of my grip, could you tell if it is in the sweet spot for that particualr bow?


As far as the sweet spot, this is more pressure related than the actual grip position. On a Hybrid cam bow if you were to line up the left side of the grip with your life line and the rest of the grip will fit on your thumb pad side is a great starting point. This automatically gives you more of a clockwise rotation due to the pressure on your thumb pad side. Your thumb is the other factor that creates slight pressure but is more used on a 2 track binary bow. With a Hybrid and your grip in the position mentioned above it will pretty much put your thumb straight towards the target regardless, if it is relaxed. I will add while in this grip position for a Hybrid cam like a Hoyt do not put the heel pressure of the bottom of your hand into it, let the thumb pad take the pressure. It's really more the web in between the thumb pad and the life line if I was to narrow it done to one particular spot. As far as getting the exact sweet spot, this comes from your bareshaft results. 

You hear guys say all the time we don't use a bareshaft so why bother. Well I am hear to tell you I have not had one guy when the right dynamic spine, tune and grip are correct and bareshafts hitting with fletched go back to say why bother. The bareshaft becomes your training tool to keep your form and grip in check. When all these things work together they will give you unbelievable forgiveness in your set up.


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## Ray Ray (Aug 1, 2005)

I have question for Shane. I have a Gt500. I shoot bare shaft, fletched, & BH's to same point of impact. The bare shaft is always in the target fletch to the right, while the others are strait. 
I also put an anti torque bent rod on. The fletched & BH's hit same POI, but bare shaft was 10" left. Put the strait rod back on & the bare shaft was back with the others. Is this a grip problem?


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## sean1 (Dec 5, 2009)

Ray Ray, I'm not a super tuner like Shane but I did notice with my Athens bow that it was very sensitive to the draw length as to wether it would shoot bare shafts with fletched. I could get BH's to hit with field points at 50 yards but struggled with the bare shafts. I think you have to fine tune your draw length for these type bows since there are no yokes to twist. 

As far as the anti torque rod, maybe that in itself would change the tune of the bow then would require rest adjustments to find the new sweet spot with that rod? I'm not sure. I'm curious on that one myself.


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## ontarget7 (Dec 30, 2009)

Ray Ray said:


> I have question for Shane. I have a Gt500. I shoot bare shaft, fletched, & BH's to same point of impact. The bare shaft is always in the target fletch to the right, while the others are strait.
> I also put an anti torque bent rod on. The fletched & BH's hit same POI, but bare shaft was 10" left. Put the strait rod back on & the bare shaft was back with the others. Is this a grip problem?


No, anytime you replace the factory rod for a flex or bent rod system you will have to tune accordingly. In your case it would require a rest adjustment and more than likely on the GT 500 your rest adjustment would need to go in closer to the riser when using a flex or bent rod system compared to factory


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## Ray Ray (Aug 1, 2005)

Why are the bare shafts still so angled in the target, but the Fletched & BH's strait. I am sticking with the strait rod as I don't want less clearance than I have.


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## ontarget7 (Dec 30, 2009)

Ray Ray said:


> Why are the bare shafts still so angled in the target, but the Fletched & BH's strait. I am sticking with the strait rod as I don't want less clearance than I have.


If it is the same point but angled it is generally grip if spine is in check.


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## Inc. (Jul 5, 2013)

ontarget7 said:


> You don't have to belief me bro, it is really all right. Seems like you are searching very hard to go against what i am trying to show others. Trust me, once you get the grip repeatable to that sweet spot it is a noticeable difference in your shooting ability.
> 
> Again every cam system is different but the pics of Reo are spot on for the type of grip and pressure needed on the Hoyts.


I think what I stated is very close to what your saying ? I am not searching for anything out side of complete understanding . 


"the index knuckle above the thumb, the left side of the riser grip is riding his life line. This would indicate a massive amount of clock wise rotation . If you take a peek and have a look about 12" outside that left hand you will notice there is almost 2 lb of steel hanging out there. Again requiring just a tad bit of clock wise direction.


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## ontarget7 (Dec 30, 2009)

Inc. said:


> I think what I stated is very close to what your saying ? I am not searching for anything out side of complete understanding .
> 
> 
> "the index knuckle above the thumb, the left side of the riser grip is riding his life line. This would indicate a massive amount of clock wise rotation . If you take a peek and have a look about 12" outside that left hand you will notice there is almost 2 lb of steel hanging out there. Again requiring just a tad bit of clock wise direction.


That would be correct, however I don't feel there is a difference with a long stab and all the weight. The grip would really be the same from my testing.


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## Inc. (Jul 5, 2013)

https://www.facebook.com/dave.cousins.54?directed_target_id=0

Daves take on grip



""""""" Grip got you struggling? Ever wanted to know exactly where you should be? Check out the red mark on my hand (lined it out for better visibility) low wrist, three fingers tucked, hand at a 45° to the shelf thumb and first finger LIGHTLY! Wrapped!!! DONE! Kiss your left&right issues goodbye makes tuning a breeze """


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

Not commenting, but adding to the above Inc reply. Dave added; "Even pressure top to bottom and even pressure on the thumb and first finger side."


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## ontarget7 (Dec 30, 2009)

Inc. said:


> https://www.facebook.com/dave.cousins.54?directed_target_id=0
> 
> Daves take on grip
> 
> ...


Dave is definitely one of the top shooters out there but I would say this is not the case with every cam system. So I would have to disagree


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## ex-wolverine (Dec 31, 2004)

Just a thought

Why don't someone pm Levi or message him on face book and asked him if he changed his grip or it just looks a shade different because of geometry differences between the two riser's??

I'm sure he has seen this post by now 

Tom


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## ontarget7 (Dec 30, 2009)

ex-wolverine said:


> Just a thought
> 
> Why don't someone pm Levi or message him on face book and asked him if he changed his grip or it just looks a shade different because of geometry differences between the two riser's??
> 
> ...


I can't even count how many shooters I have seen that changed their grip slightly for a 2 track cam system, including myself and have owned quite a few of them. I have not played with the 2014's enough to speak for them but prior years it is not uncommon at all.


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## Inc. (Jul 5, 2013)

ontarget7 said:


> Dave is definitely one of the top shooters out there but I would say this is not the case with every cam system. So I would have to disagree


Would it be possible for you to mark up a few cam systems in your palm to give a visual ?


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## Mahly (Dec 18, 2002)

Still not onboard the cam system line of thought. Too many variables. A long ATA binary with something of a flex guard vs. say a very short ATA Hybrid and roller guard…Even with yoke tuning, your gonna get more torque in the short/roller hybrid than with a long ATA flex guard binary.
Not the best example, but I find myself using pretty much the same grip for my Strother (37"+ ATA, plus angles slider) as I do my Hoyt (35" ATA straight rod slider).
The only real difference for my is simply the shape of the grip of the bow. The Strother has a little bit more narrow grip which allows the relaxed hand to be a little bit more "closed" (Grip not forcing the hand to be spread as wide to fit).
Honestly, I think the width of a grip (and of course it's shape) is much more important than the type of cams on the bow.


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## ontarget7 (Dec 30, 2009)

Mahly said:


> Still not onboard the cam system line of thought. Too many variables. A long ATA binary with something of a flex guard vs. say a very short ATA Hybrid and roller guard…Even with yoke tuning, your gonna get more torque in the short/roller hybrid than with a long ATA flex guard binary.
> Not the best example, but I find myself using pretty much the same grip for my Strother (37"+ ATA, plus angles slider) as I do my Hoyt (35" ATA straight rod slider).
> The only real difference for my is simply the shape of the grip of the bow. The Strother has a little bit more narrow grip which allows the relaxed hand to be a little bit more "closed" (Grip not forcing the hand to be spread as wide to fit).
> Honestly, I think the width of a grip (and of course it's shape) is much more important than the type of cams on the bow.



Actually not a bad example, if I remember right you have stated that you have never shot another bow better than your Strother. From my testing that will always be the case when you have 2 different style of bows ( cam systems ) and stay with the same grip for each. 

I know there are always a few exceptions but I am speaking in general.


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## Mahly (Dec 18, 2002)

Oddly enough, it's my first Binary bow. Been shooting Hoyt's since before my ultratec and an Alpine as well.

I personally feel the reasons I shoot the Strother better is the ATA, brace, less draw weight, and solid wall (even just with cable stops, a better wall than my Hoyts)

Don't get me wrong, my Vectrix XL shoots great, just easier to shoot the same scores or better with the Moxie.


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## Reverend (Nov 2, 2004)

Braden's Grip on Mathews bow…


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## Reverend (Nov 2, 2004)

Reo again…
Was trying to get these pics side by side for comparison.


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## Reverend (Nov 2, 2004)

Chance and Dave…


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## ontarget7 (Dec 30, 2009)

Reverend said:


> View attachment 1814322
> 
> 
> Reo again…
> Was trying to get these pics side by side for comparison.


If I was to pic a grip to model for the Hoyt's (Hybrids) it would be Reo's. That is about as perfect as you can get right there.


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## mwmich (Nov 6, 2009)

Very interesting thread. I have been struggling with my grip on my Bowtech Insanity. I just switched from a Guardian this past June. I shot my Guardian so long that I never had to think much about the grip. I shot the Guardian with a high wrist but the Insanity does not shoot well this way, at least for me. The Insanity seems to favor a medium high wrist. I think my struggle has been that I am not concentrating enough on my grip and shooting with a high wrist.


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## Inc. (Jul 5, 2013)

Dave nor chance have "pointy " thumbs , does this factor in ?


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## ontarget7 (Dec 30, 2009)

Inc. said:


> Dave nor chance have "pointy " thumbs , does this factor in ?


Just throwing this out there. 

I have never tried to grip a bow like that but from a tuning standpoint and what I am referring to, you would think they would be forced to bring their thumb around. That's to say you are trying to achieve a slight clockwise rotation on a Hybrid cam. You can get away with a little more on the G5 Prime cam system from my experience with them. Probably the reason why some feel they are very shooter friendly. 

Dave and Chance seem to find it very repeatable. I would think it would be quite uncomfortable for me personally.


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## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

There is a simple solution to all of this and if you would just draw back to anchor and have a buddy watch the string coming off the cam you could find your answers, the string should come straight back off the cam on the same plane as the cam or in laymans terms straight back instead of the bow being torqued left or right and the string coming off at a angle. 

Everyone in this thread talks about tweeking your grip to get the arrow flight or performance out of the bow and I am telling you that you could speed up the process by spending 5 minutes doing this and picking a grip that gives you a string that comes off the cam every time straight. I personally use a torque indicator on my bow and I set the torque indicator so that it insures me that the string is coming back.


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## ontarget7 (Dec 30, 2009)

Padgett said:


> There is a simple solution to all of this and if you would just draw back to anchor and have a buddy watch the string coming off the cam you could find your answers, the string should come straight back off the cam on the same plane as the cam or in laymans terms straight back instead of the bow being torqued left or right and the string coming off at a angle.
> 
> Everyone in this thread talks about tweeking your grip to get the arrow flight or performance out of the bow and I am telling you that you could speed up the process by spending 5 minutes doing this and picking a grip that gives you a string that comes off the cam every time straight. I personally use a torque indicator on my bow and I set the torque indicator so that it insures me that the string is coming back.




You mean like this ?


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## Inc. (Jul 5, 2013)

ontarget7 said:


> If I was to pic a grip to model for the Hoyt's it would be Reo's.


Is a grip model considered above or below a sock model in the grand scheme of modeling ? 
Just wondering because I use to model socks ...


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## ontarget7 (Dec 30, 2009)

inc. said:


> is a grip model considered above or below a sock model in the grand scheme of modeling ?
> Just wondering because i use to model socks ...


lol !


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## Reverend (Nov 2, 2004)

Trying to play with my grip, but it always seems to fall into the same place.


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## ontarget7 (Dec 30, 2009)

Reverend said:


> View attachment 1817155
> 
> 
> Trying to play with my grip, but it always seems to fall into the same place.


That looks good to me bro. What issues are you having that you think you need to change it ? You look like Reo :teeth:


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## Reverend (Nov 2, 2004)

ontarget7 said:


> That looks good to me bro. What issues are you having that you think you need to change it ? You look like Reo :teeth:


Reo? Haha. 
My grip seems to fall into this position naturally, but I'm having a little trouble bareshaft tuning my Matrix out at 20 yards. 
I set center shot to 3/4 in. as you recommended. Nocking point is 90 degrees running through center of plunger hole. 

Bareshafts were hitting about 8 inches left (pointing right), and 8 inches low. 

I fixed the L-R first. After adding about 3 more twists to right yoke and removing another 2 from left leg, I finally got them close… though the yoke looks very offset (almost no twists on Left yoke, and tightly twisted on Right yoke). 

ADDITIONALLY, since bareshafts were hitting low, I took about 2 full twists out of the control cable, to get them to join the fletched shafts. Now they're impacting about the same but are a little nock high. The problem now is that the cams are mistimed by about 3/16 in. This doesn't seem right. Do you think I should resync the cams (add twists back to CC), and simply move my rest up? If I do then the nocking point will be a 1/16 - 1/8 in. "below" square (kinda weird). 
Do you have any insight? 
RH 60# Matrix
27.75 in. DL
26 1/4 in. .400 spine Easton Flatlines, 100 gr. tip


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

Reverend said:


> View attachment 1817155


Ah Ha! Spotted your problem right off the bat. Your counter balance (spare tire) isn't near as big as mine


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## ontarget7 (Dec 30, 2009)

Reverend said:


> Reo? Haha.
> My grip seems to fall into this position naturally, but I'm having a little trouble bareshaft tuning my Matrix out at 20 yards.
> I set center shot to 3/4 in. as you recommended. Nocking point is 90 degrees running through center of plunger hole.
> 
> ...


Not uncommon at all for your yoke legs when adjusting for lateral nock travel. Give me a call and we can go over the vertical nock travel


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## Alaska at heart (Aug 25, 2009)

Belicoso said:


> So tuning bows for some else could , only be done till a specific point.
> That not a shout at you at all dont get me wrong, just my opinion.


Most definitely. My nephew has a small basement tuning business and is very good at it. I changed brand of bow and was working at getting a bare shaft tear out of setup in his basement range this spring. He owned the same bow and had been shooting it for over a year, so he could take my bow and shoot bullet holes with it while I was getting a tear with precisely the same bow, arrows, rest, etc. Thus a bow that is tuned by a good tuner is tuned to a set of specs or characteristics of his shooting style and not necessarily the owner of the bow.


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## ontarget7 (Dec 30, 2009)

Alaska at heart said:


> Most definitely. My nephew has a small basement tuning business and is very good at it. I changed brand of bow and was working at getting a bare shaft tear out of setup in his basement range this spring. He owned the same bow and had been shooting it for over a year, so he could take my bow and shoot bullet holes with it while I was getting a tear with precisely the same bow, arrows, rest, etc. Thus a bow that is tuned by a good tuner is tuned to a set of specs or characteristics of his shooting style and not necessarily the owner of the bow.


I would have to disagree. To get the most forgiveness you tune the bow to true arrow flight and then the shooter to what the bow requires to get there. When looking for the most forgiveness this is what will get you there.

I have tested this over and over again from guys that have come to my place for tuning and want the bow tuned to them. This is a complete misconception in paper tuning IMO. You can tweak just about any bow to a shooter and get a bullet hole. That does not necessarily mean the bow is in tune to the shooter. In most cases the bow will not be tuned to its full potential, you need to tweak the shooter to a perfectly tuned bow. 

From there you will have the ultimate in forgiveness for a given set up. 

I also find that when a bow is tuned to perfection with bareshafts/fletched and you give it to a shooter that might not have the best of form, it is still more forgiving despite his form.

You take that same shooter, tune it to him to shoot a bullet hole but he can't get bareshafts to fly with fletched arrows at 20 yards because its not truly in tune to him alone.

I have tried both these scenarios numerous times and still the one that is tuned to perfect arrow flight will be more forgiving of the two. Despite it not being tuned to the shooter with form flaws etc.


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## Reverend (Nov 2, 2004)

SonnyThomas said:


> Ah Ha! Spotted your problem right off the bat. Your counter balance (spare tire) isn't near as big as mine


Is that what that is? I knew it was good for something. Haha.


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## Inc. (Jul 5, 2013)

OK , ill just say it , human grip based on cam is silly ! 
Grip based on grip and riser , yea I get it! 
Lets swap cams an risers and see how far that gets us .

I have a Hooter , I am willing to pay a full tune price to any super tuner if I can be proven wrong , It need be a reliable , accurate ,shootable set up as well ! I will document every single step ! 
Skype , and telephone , you tube AT - all methods of communication ! 

My request is simple - DST 40 , on a blade , 27 shafts - bare shaft shot same hole as fletched - from hooter and hand - 
Thats about the most forgivable set up you can ask for ! 

walk in the park


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## Inc. (Jul 5, 2013)




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## ontarget7 (Dec 30, 2009)

Inc. said:


> OK , ill just say it , human grip based on cam is silly !
> Grip based on grip and riser , yea I get it!
> Lets swap cams an risers and see how far that gets us .
> 
> ...


LOL ! You think I just pulled this out of a hat ?

How many 2 tracks have you owned that would tune perfect bareshaft and fletched to 20 yards ?


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## Inc. (Jul 5, 2013)

ontarget7 said:


> LOL ! You think I just pulled this out of a hat ?
> 
> How many 2 tracks have you owned that would tune perfect bareshaft and fletched to 20 yards ?


I have no doubts about your knowledge and abilities ! None what so ever , its not about that for sure
I do agree how grip can effect shot and tune , grip based on cams .... nah ,
To many different grips out there getting it done.


"How many 2 tracks have you owned that would tune perfect bareshaft and fletched to 20 yards ?" - None when shot off a blade , however I do believe you said it is doable given the grip ?

The offer is out there and I dont mind eating crow from time to time.


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## ontarget7 (Dec 30, 2009)

Inc. said:


> I have no doubts about your knowledge and abilities ! None what so ever , its not about that for sure
> I do agree how grip can effect shot and tune , grip based on cams .... nah ,
> To many different grips out there getting it done.
> 
> ...


The problem with your offer is the bow. This is a true shoot through design that will be way more forgiving to grip position and pressure. 

When you pick up a 2 track that would be more of an example what I am referring to. Let me know when you do and the results you get.


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## carbon arrow1 (Jul 9, 2008)

too many pages to read, but I wonder if anyone made a franken bow and changed to a different cam system to prove this? I just don't see how a cam system would matter. you look at (for example) hoyt, Mathews and elite. all different cams, but all different grips. I would think just the grips alone would make the biggest difference?? honest question, not stirring the pot. just want to learn something.


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## Inc. (Jul 5, 2013)

ontarget7 said:


> The problem with your offer is the bow. This is a true shoot through design that will be way more forgiving to grip position and pressure.
> 
> When you pick up a 2 track that would be more of an example what I am referring to. Let me know when you do and the results you get.


Exactly so I would imagine the task wold be that much easier ?


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## ontarget7 (Dec 30, 2009)

Inc. said:


> Exactly so I would imagine the task wold be that much easier ?


Yes it would be. Although it doesn't do much for the topic at hand because 99% of the hunters do not hunt with a shoot through riser.

A 2 track system like an Elite would be a perfect example of what I am referring to. So when you pick one up let me know


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## Beentown (May 14, 2006)

ontarget7 said:


> Yes it would be. Although it doesn't do much for the topic at hand because 99% of the hunters do not hunt with a shoot through riser.
> 
> A 2 track system like an Elite would be a perfect example of what I am referring to. So when you pick one up let me know


Get an Obsession and a Expedition. One is a two track and the other a hybrid. Everything else is almost identical.


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## ontarget7 (Dec 30, 2009)

Beentown said:


> Get an Obsession and a Expedition. One is a two track and the other a hybrid. Everything else is almost identical.


Sounds good send them my way :teeth:

Anytime you have a yoke your lean is controllable which in turn is more forgiving to lateral nock travel. On a 2 track system the amount of lean is not controllable, resulting in fine tuning your rest and grip to create the best lateral nock travel for a particular set up


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## Beentown (May 14, 2006)

ontarget7 said:


> Sounds good send them my way :teeth:
> 
> Anytime you have a yoke your lean is controllable which in turn is more forgiving to lateral nock travel. On a 2 track system the amount of lean is not controllable, resulting in fine tuning your rest and grip to create the best lateral nock travel for a particular set up


I agree with this statement. Most just live with it....


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## ontarget7 (Dec 30, 2009)

A perfect example of what I am referring to is the G5 Prime series. This is just like a 2 track system that is doubled up with its own floating yoke system. This system eliminates just about all your cam lean that is generally normal in a 2 track system. What this does is drastically improve lateral nock travel and pretty much eliminates any negative cam lean at full draw. This is why you hear reports all the time at how forgiving these bows are.
Anytime you can control cam lean your grip will become more forgiving as well. Now I still say that each bow has it's sweet spot in terms of grip IMO but certain cam systems do make it more forgiving to the shooter.


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## chevman (Nov 3, 2006)

Ontarget7...do you have a frontal picture of your grip on a hoyt. I am struggling finding the sweet spot even with the picture of Reo's grip. He has his taped and i dont, and i noticed you dont either. Thanks.


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## ontarget7 (Dec 30, 2009)

chevman said:


> Ontarget7...do you have a frontal picture of your grip on a hoyt. I am struggling finding the sweet spot even with the picture of Reo's grip. He has his taped and i dont, and i noticed you dont either. Thanks.


I will see if I can get a couple taken this week. It will give you a rough idea. Bareshaft results along with your overall tune will ultimately lead you to the right amount of pressure


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## chevman (Nov 3, 2006)

ontarget7 said:


> I will see if I can get a couple taken this week. It will give you a rough idea. Bareshaft results along with your overall tune will ultimately lead you to the right amount of pressure


Great. Worked on grip today and was very inconsistent. Makes bareshaft tuning a night mare. Groups of three fletched arrows were not very impressive even. This was at twenty yards.


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## ontarget7 (Dec 30, 2009)

chevman said:


> Great. Worked on grip today and was very inconsistent. Makes bareshaft tuning a night mare. Groups of three fletched arrows were not very impressive even. This was at twenty yards.


Give me a call tomorrow, it will be easier to discuss it with you


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## chevman (Nov 3, 2006)

ontarget7 said:


> Give me a call tomorrow, it will be easier to discuss it with you


What a guy!!


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## Jared_LA (Apr 22, 2005)

ontarget7:
Great read! 
I'm having issues with my bareshaft at 20yds, bareshaft right of fletched about 3-5" and tail left. Set up is CST, 68lbs (70lb limbs), touch less than 27" DL, arrows are Easton Carbon Injexions 330, cut at 27". Any chance you can post up pics of your grip? I've tried the factory grip and sideplates, but feel more comfortable with the plates. Any suggestions?
Thanks!


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## ontarget7 (Dec 30, 2009)

Old thread but still get asked about this quite a bit so figured I would bump it up to the top. 

Here is a quick video clip for those having issues with bareshaft left or right tears. Would be just the opposite for bareshfaft right or left tears 

https://youtu.be/a4VPa04EtpA



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Abyss512 (Jun 24, 2016)

If I skimmed this correctly an obsession would need more pressure towards your fingers?


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## ontarget7 (Dec 30, 2009)

Depends on your results, spacer configuration and center shot as to what direction you will go. I like to use grip as a last result if guys are having issues


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Frank-the-5th (Apr 3, 2014)

ontarget7 said:


> Depends on your results, spacer configuration and center shot as to what direction you will go. I like to use grip as a last result if guys are having issues
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Wanted to bring this back up, been having issues with bareshafts right on my elite. Would I want to rotate my grip counter lock wise from how you have it in the video? 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## ontarget7 (Dec 30, 2009)

Frank-the-5th said:


> Wanted to bring this back up, been having issues with bareshafts right on my elite. Would I want to rotate my grip counter lock wise from how you have it in the video?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Bareshfts right for a right handed shooter 

Part of the problem could be you are not shooting with enough knuckles relaxed towards the target and to much knuckles back to you


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## jdaf (Sep 9, 2013)

Tag


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Frank-the-5th (Apr 3, 2014)

ontarget7 said:


> Bareshfts right for a right handed shooter
> 
> Part of the problem could be you are not shooting with enough knuckles relaxed towards the target and to much knuckles back to you


I'll try and post a better pic when I get home, I had been shooting with a high wrist grip and had to switch to a low wrist and let the riser run right down the middle of my thumb pad like this








Much better results and much more consistent 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Smokeymtnbow (Jun 17, 2013)

Frank-the-5th said:


> I'll try and post a better pic when I get home, I had been shooting with a high wrist grip and had to switch to a low wrist and let the riser run right down the middle of my thumb pad like this
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Wow, I don't know if I can get that far over. I'll try it out as well.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


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## ontarget7 (Dec 30, 2009)

Frank-the-5th said:


> I'll try and post a better pic when I get home, I had been shooting with a high wrist grip and had to switch to a low wrist and let the riser run right down the middle of my thumb pad like this
> 
> 
> 
> ...


If you have to shoot that far over I'm betting you have some tuning that needs to be worked out


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Jazzbo66 (Jan 19, 2015)

Hi I came across a post you did about grip pressure and was wondering if you could help me. I have a Bowtech Reign 6 and just cant see to find a consistent grip on it. Any tips on how I should be holding it? I was thinking about going to get a full wood grip for it but I'm not sure.


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## aread (Dec 25, 2009)

This is one of the few zombie threads that deserves to be brought back up every couple years.
Great information & good discussion

Allen


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## Keith t (Oct 31, 2008)

Jazzbo66 said:


> Hi I came across a post you did about grip pressure and was wondering if you could help me. I have a Bowtech Reign 6 and just cant see to find a consistent grip on it. Any tips on how I should be holding it? I was thinking about going to get a full wood grip for it but I'm not sure.


How are you holding it now?


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## wrathkhan (Nov 25, 2013)

Shane can you talk more about the two track grip. I still don't have a great understanding of it? I'm having a tough time cleaning up a small tail right bare shaft impact. Thanks


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## ontarget7 (Dec 30, 2009)

wrathkhan said:


> Shane can you talk more about the two track grip. I still don't have a great understanding of it? I'm having a tough time cleaning up a small tail right bare shaft impact. Thanks


Sorry, guys !
Not much time for AT at all anymore with my construction business taking up most of my time. 

Here is a link that should help with those having some tail right issues and way outside the norm for centershots on 2 track cams. 

https://youtu.be/a4VPa04EtpA


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## ontarget7 (Dec 30, 2009)

Jazzbo66 said:


> Hi I came across a post you did about grip pressure and was wondering if you could help me. I have a Bowtech Reign 6 and just cant see to find a consistent grip on it. Any tips on how I should be holding it? I was thinking about going to get a full wood grip for it but I'm not sure.


I would need to know what tuning reaction are you dealing with. Tail left, tail right etc 

Then all your current tune setting including pre lean would be helpful to properly assess what your going through 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## wrathkhan (Nov 25, 2013)

ontarget7 said:


> Sorry, guys !
> Not much time for AT at all anymore with my construction business taking up most of my time.
> 
> Here is a link that should help with those having some tail right issues and way outside the norm for centershots on 2 track cams.
> ...


Thanks Shane very helpful!


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## sbo1971 (Dec 22, 2015)

After 560 shots through my Ritual 33, countless hours of searching, reading and watching things trying to resolve my right tear, I finally figured it out, it’s my form! My bow arm was straight out to my left side if not angled backwards some. At full draw the string is angled to the right pretty severely which caused the 2-3 inch right tear.


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## sbo1971 (Dec 22, 2015)

Well may have spoke too soon, the arrow flight looks good when shot 20-30yds but still a 1/2 right tear that won’t go away even moving the rest to max specs for center shot.


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## Rocky2242 (Dec 19, 2018)

Interesting


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