# NFAA state field



## wolf44 (Mar 31, 2009)

full field on the first day, 1/2hunter and 1/2 animal the second day


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## RASIB (Nov 30, 2006)

What kind of turnout are you seeing?


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## Mike Reynolds (Sep 29, 2005)

In Texas we use 28 field & 28 Hunter, for a two-day shoot.


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## TNMAN (Oct 6, 2009)

2011 TN 14-14-14 either sat or sun, 19 shooters

Hoping that a guest class is approved at Vegas this year.


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## Spotshooter2 (Oct 23, 2003)

TNMAN said:


> 2011 TN 14-14-14 either sat or sun, 19 shooters
> 
> Hoping that a guest class is approved at Vegas this year.


You can have a guest class now. It is the clubs responsibility for any awards for the guest class if they wish to give them.


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## south-paaw (Jul 3, 2006)

depends on the definition of " guest class "


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## wa-prez (Sep 9, 2006)

In Washington we do a two-day event, with 28 Field and 14 Animal on Saturday, and 28 Hunter on Sunday.

We usually get 65-80 attendance.

We require NFAA membership to COMPETE.


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## CHPro (May 21, 2002)

WI uses the same format as WA and sees roughly the same attendance depending on which part of the state the event is being hosted in. WI also follows the NFAA RIC interpretation that NFAA membership is required to participate in our 2 required events for our state association status - one being our State Field and the other our State Indoor. Also do not have an issue with the agenda item which would allow states to decide if they wish to include a non-NFAA member guest class at these 2 events. Other than some additional revenue to the host club I don't see a guest class for non-NFAA members bringing in that many more NFAA members. I suspect non-NFAA member guests will always balk at the cost of joining the org and are more of a casual participant and therefore will unlikely join the NFAA regardless if they are allowed to participate at a state sanctioned tournament. Just my opinion .

>>------>


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## brtesite (May 24, 2002)

CHPro said:


> WI uses the same format as WA and sees roughly the same attendance depending on which part of the state the event is being hosted in. WI also follows the NFAA RIC interpretation that NFAA membership is required to participate in our 2 required events for our state association status - one being our State Field and the other our State Indoor. Also do not have an issue with the agenda item which would allow states to decide if they wish to include a non-NFAA member guest class at these 2 events. Other than some additional revenue to the host club I don't see a guest class for non-NFAA members bringing in that many more NFAA members. I suspect non-NFAA member guests will always balk at the cost of joining the org and are more of a casual participant and therefore will unlikely join the NFAA regardless if they are allowed to participate at a state sanctioned tournament. Just my opinion .
> 
> >>------>



you will see the demise of the NFAA with a guest class. 
They also want it for sectionals. Most people shooting go to these event knowing they can't win. They just want to shoot in a big shoot. why then would they want to spend the other 35.00 to participate. They just want to shoot. Chpro, why would you even let them shoot with even joining your state. I think there will be a battle royal at the meeting. 

a guest is defined as "An NFAA member living beyond your state or sectional boundaries" not with in your area. These are the only guests 
allowed.


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## RASIB (Nov 30, 2006)

We only have two active field ranges in louisiana that are about four hours apart. We tried the either or one day to try and increase participation and I think it helped. The host club for 2012 has decided to require shooters to shoot both days. The last time the event with a two day format they had 11 shooters. As far as the guest class goes I have a hard time explaining why the NFAA membership is 50.00 so people just don't want to join. I also believe that the NFAA needs to look at allowing people from other states to cross state lines to compete in state championships events. I personally do not see any harm in this. Other organizations allow this and it only helps with participation.


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## hdracer (Aug 8, 2007)

At our club we have 14 targets. State shoot is 2 days--1st day 28 Field targets. 2nd day--14 Hunter, 14 Animal. No guest class. I think we had around 20-22 shooters last year (don't really remember).


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## r49740 (Dec 7, 2006)

hdracer said:


> At our club we have 14 targets. State shoot is 2 days--1st day 28 Field targets. 2nd day--14 Hunter, 14 Animal. No guest class. I think we had around 20-22 shooters last year (don't really remember).



Last year we had 36 shooters at the state field.

I understand no constant guests(meaning a guest every year and never joining), but I see a lot of value in allowing someone to be a guest for 1 year. If they want to pay the money, which helps the clubs and the organization put on better tournaments, and not be eligible for awards other than getting an idea of how everything works, then why not? I think that would only allow the organization to grow. Why would that be the demise of the NFAA? There is a different thread on here about why the attendence at field tournaments is so low, and I think most agree that there are just not that many courses compared to 3d. So the awareness is much lower. Being able to have someone come to a state shoot as a "guest" that isn't competing for awards but can see what a field tournament is, can only help. If they know they have to pay the membership dues and the state fees just to see what it is about, then most won't. I think that is obvious based on attendence. Can't hurt to give them a 1 year "guest" pass to check it out. If they are not a member now, and don't become a member after the shoot, how is that the demise of NFAA? How does it hurt to have that one extra person try a tournament and have some fun? That part doesn't make sense to me.


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## 2413gary (Apr 10, 2008)

In California we used to shoot 2 days 28 field and 28 animals on Sat. 28 hunter on Sunday. We changed to a 6 club venue one day 14 field 14 hunter and 14 animal. we went from 98 shooters to 290 shooters. Yes we have increased our numbers but I think we have lost our competive tournament by not shooting with your compitition. But you can't argue with our turn out.


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## Spotshooter2 (Oct 23, 2003)

RASIB said:


> We only have two active field ranges in louisiana that are about four hours apart. We tried the either or one day to try and increase participation and I think it helped. The host club for 2012 has decided to require shooters to shoot both days. The last time the event with a two day format they had 11 shooters. As far as the guest class goes I have a hard time explaining why the NFAA membership is 50.00 so people just don't want to join.* I also believe that the NFAA needs to look at allowing people from other states to cross state lines to compete in state championships events*. I personally do not see any harm in this. Other organizations allow this and it only helps with participation.


For one thing , they have not paid state dues to that state. They can come and shoot it , just can't shoot for awards. Otherwise why call it a STATE shoot.


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## ccwilder3 (Sep 13, 2003)

Florida is 28 field, 14 animal on Saturday and 28 hunter on Sunday.

I like it this way and don't want to see the number of targets dropped. To me, part of field shooting is the endurance factor.


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## nock tune (Jul 5, 2009)

ccwilder3 said:


> Florida is 28 field, 14 animal on Saturday and 28 hunter on Sunday.
> 
> I like it this way and don't want to see the number of targets dropped. To me, part of field shooting is the endurance factor.


Agree,Plus thats not counting the other State shoots that have Field rounds an the NAFAC in Homestead every December, three days. Also FL. has 9 other State run shoots, most outdoors, an a 2 day International round shoot, shot on the Hunter face target. And thats the way we roll!!


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## vegashunter55 (Dec 7, 2009)

NV- 28 field and 14 animal on Sat. 28 hunter on Sunday. Lots of arrows and even more fun.


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## field14 (May 21, 2002)

2413gary said:


> In California we used to shoot 2 days 28 field and 28 animals on Sat. 28 hunter on Sunday. We changed to a 6 club venue one day 14 field 14 hunter and 14 animal. we went from 98 shooters to 290 shooters. Yes we have increased our numbers but I think we have lost our competive tournament by not shooting with your compitition. But you can't argue with our turn out.


Iowa solved your problem years ago, concerning "shooting with your competition"!!! What they've done is indeed to go to a ONE DAY State Field. You shoot with a 'group' for the first 14 field. Then, you turn in your scorecards, signed, of course, and they regroup you with your competition to go back out on the course to shoot 14 hunter and 14 animal WITH your CLOSEST competition in your Division and Class. Not a problem, and they too had a huge increase in the number of participants!!!

Iowa also does the same thing with their ONE DAY state Target and has since before 1978. You shoot with 3 other people at 60 yards. Turn in your scorecards, eat lunch while they are grouping you with your competition and you finish up with the 50 and the 40 yards on the line, toe to toe with your closest competitors. That WORKS just fine too.
It is ludicrous, IMHO to go with a two-day format for a state field...when a NATIONAL event can be 3-days!
Too many people are forced to work weekends, or have other things going and cannot afford the expense of two nights in a motel, two days of eats, and all that, or even one nite in a motel...whereas when there is a one day event, they don't have all those hundreds of dollars of added expense and overnighting.
field14 (Tom D.)


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## xring1 (May 28, 2008)

brtesite said:


> you will see the demise of the NFAA with a guest class.
> They also want it for sectionals. Most people shooting go to these event knowing they can't win. They just want to shoot in a big shoot. why then would they want to spend the other 35.00 to participate. They just want to shoot. Chpro, why would you even let them shoot with even joining your state. I think there will be a battle royal at the meeting.
> 
> a guest is defined as "An NFAA member living beyond your state or sectional boundaries" not with in your area. These are the only guests
> allowed.


Boy!!! thats what I would do !! turn away someone who wanted to shoot .
Why not put them in a guest class?
Who really cares where they are from?
Maybe if you let them shoot in a guest class they might join after the fact!
I dont know about other states awards,but all you get in Wv now is a stick on patch! WHOO HOO!!!!!!


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## JMJ (Jul 17, 2008)

xring1 said:


> Boy!!! thats what I would do !! turn away someone who wanted to shoot .
> Why not put them in a guest class?
> Who really cares where they are from?
> Maybe if you let them shoot in a guest class they might join after the fact!
> I dont know about other states awards,but all you get in Wv now is a stick on patch! WHOO HOO!!!!!!


Agreed!
However ... in order to stay away from the "dreaded Guest class" ...
Why not run 2 tournaments simultaneously?
One for NFAA members, one for non members.
The groupings could be run as though everyone is a member.
It will be up to the host club to provide awards for the non members.

Mike mentioned that some folks go to these shoots with no intention to win, they only want to participate in a big shoot.
One of our problems in this area .... These are no longer BIG shoots.
There is no prestige left in these shoots due to the fact that there aren't enough members.

I went to the Southeast Sectional last year in KY.
There were but a handful of shooters present.
I don't have the numbers available to me, but Frank will I'm sure.
Chickasaw Archers have a great facility and did a great job .... but there needs to be more shooters to justify the work and expense undertaken by any host club.

How do we get these members/shooters?
Food for thought .... 
a) lesser number of targets - Field is and always has been the form of archery that I enjoy most, but that was just too much shooting to be enjoyable to me. (At the sectionals)
b) do away with a mandatory 2 day format - A LOT of people nowadays can't, or won't dedicate 2 or 3 days to just shooting a tournament. Life is just too hectic in this day and age.
c) turn NOONE away, EVER - have a seperate tournament for them if necessary
d) there are several different games on the NFAA books - We should better utilize them on the local level. International and the Double 7 are fun as well as 1 day friendly.

These are only ideas that can be manipulated to fit the venue, and no doubt there are many more suggestions I'm sure you guys can come up with.
I don't pretend for a moment to have all the answers, and I'm sure by now that Mr. Austin, and probably Mr. Baxter and Mr. Moss of KY, are sick and tired of hearing from me.
But IMHO the time has come folks.
The old status quo is no longer working.
Times change .... and we either change with them or we get left behind.


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## JMJ (Jul 17, 2008)

Sorry .... one more thing

I've heard a lot of long time, hard core dot shooters complain about the animal round.
If you're one of those, you should shoot a round with a first timer every once in a while.
You'll probably find that the animal round is what they like the best.
At least until THEY become a hard core dot shooter like you.

Being a new venue in the state, I've gone through several times in the last 2 years with first timers.
On more than 1 occasion, the animal round was the only thing that kept them from saying "screw this".


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## Kade (Jan 11, 2011)

field14 said:


> Iowa solved your problem years ago, concerning "shooting with your competition"!!! What they've done is indeed to go to a ONE DAY State Field. You shoot with a 'group' for the first 14 field. Then, you turn in your scorecards, signed, of course, and they regroup you with your competition to go back out on the course to shoot 14 hunter and 14 animal WITH your CLOSEST competition in your Division and Class. Not a problem, and they too had a huge increase in the number of participants!!!
> 
> Iowa also does the same thing with their ONE DAY state Target and has since before 1978. You shoot with 3 other people at 60 yards. Turn in your scorecards, eat lunch while they are grouping you with your competition and you finish up with the 50 and the 40 yards on the line, toe to toe with your closest competitors. That WORKS just fine too.
> It is ludicrous, IMHO to go with a two-day format for a state field...when a NATIONAL event can be 3-days!
> ...


Yes you would be shooting with your competition at that location but not in the way that California does it with 6 locations. 

I can't figure out why people shooting field are the only ones that whine about having something to do for more then one afternoon. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## brtesite (May 24, 2002)

RASIB said:


> We only have two active field ranges in louisiana that are about four hours apart. We tried the either or one day to try and increase participation and I think it helped. The host club for 2012 has decided to require shooters to shoot both days. The last time the event with a two day format they had 11 shooters. As far as the guest class goes I have a hard time explaining why the NFAA membership is 50.00 so people just don't want to join. I also believe that the NFAA needs to look at allowing people from other states to cross state lines to compete in state championships events. I personally do not see any harm in this. Other organizations allow this and it only helps with participation.


the nFAA membership is only 35.00 any thing else is the state requirements.


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## brtesite (May 24, 2002)

r49740 said:


> Last year we had 36 shooters at the state field.
> 
> I understand no constant guests(meaning a guest every year and never joining), but I see a lot of value in allowing someone to be a guest for 1 year. If they want to pay the money, which helps the clubs and the organization put on better tournaments, and not be eligible for awards other than getting an idea of how everything works, then why not? I think that would only allow the organization to grow. Why would that be the demise of the NFAA? There is a different thread on here about why the attendence at field tournaments is so low, and I think most agree that there are just not that many courses compared to 3d. So the awareness is much lower. Being able to have someone come to a state shoot as a "guest" that isn't competing for awards but can see what a field tournament is, can only help. If they know they have to pay the membership dues and the state fees just to see what it is about, then most won't. I think that is obvious based on attendence. Can't hurt to give them a 1 year "guest" pass to check it out. If they are not a member now, and don't become a member after the shoot, how is that the demise of NFAA? How does it hurt to have that one extra person try a tournament and have some fun? That part doesn't make sense to me.


 All this crap is over the 4 tournaments required by the NFAA rules. One indoor, one outdoor Championships & one each indoor & outdoor sectionals. There are 48 other weeks in the year to have people come out & see if they like the game & maybe join up. There are no requirements by the NFAA for those other weeks. The states have free rein over what they want to do to increase membership. Does any one here think that people will come out to a sectional or state championship for the first time to see if they like the game? I don't believe it. every one wants to know what the NFAA is doing to increase membership. The question is what are the states & clubs doing to increase membership.


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## brtesite (May 24, 2002)

xring1 said:


> Boy!!! thats what I would do !! turn away someone who wanted to shoot .
> Why not put them in a guest class?
> Who really cares where they are from?
> Maybe if you let them shoot in a guest class they might join after the fact!
> I dont know about other states awards,but all you get in Wv now is a stick on patch! WHOO HOO!!!!!!


You won't have to worry about it after june 1. Every one can shoot at your state & sectionals without having to join NFAA if you don't care about being listed on the board. In fact , you will be able to shoot a sectional without being a member of a state

Don't be knocking the stick on patch:wink:


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## JMJ (Jul 17, 2008)

brtesite said:


> snip ..... every one wants to know what the NFAA is doing to increase membership. The question is what are the states & clubs doing to increase membership.


Yep ...
WE ARE the membership committe!


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## r49740 (Dec 7, 2006)

brtesite said:


> All this crap is over the 4 tournaments required by the NFAA rules. One indoor, one outdoor Championships & one each indoor & outdoor sectionals. There are 48 other weeks in the year to have people come out & see if they like the game & maybe join up. There are no requirements by the NFAA for those other weeks. The states have free rein over what they want to do to increase membership. Does any one here think that people will come out to a sectional or state championship for the first time to see if they like the game? I don't believe it. every one wants to know what the NFAA is doing to increase membership. The question is what are the states & clubs doing to increase membership.


Thats what I did. Been a member for 4 years now, so yea I believe it. Love the mentality and "crap". Thats fantastic. Just curious if that kind of stuff increases membership more than allowing guests to check out a big tournament for a year...


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## Kade (Jan 11, 2011)

Sometimes it isn't about joining the NFAA. Sometimes it's about upping attendance numbers and just lettin people shoot. 

For example. I live in Va and am a VFAA and NFAA member. I shot the State Spring field shoot but not the later summer shoot because of the distance from me. BUT I also spend a lot of time in another state shooting since they shoot more field and the ranges are all closer to me. I shot there State shoot as a guest as did a director from another state that happened to be in town visiting family that weekend. 

Turning away everyone just because is ridiculous. It takes money from the club/state and turns away shooters when the numbers are already in the toilet. It isn't about trying it out all the time or trying to avoid joining the NFAA. There have been years when I shot Va state shoots as a guest because I was a member in another state at the time also and knew I was going to shoot in that state shoot. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## brtesite (May 24, 2002)

Kade said:


> Sometimes it isn't about joining the NFAA. Sometimes it's about upping attendance numbers and just lettin people shoot.
> 
> For example. I live in Va and am a VFAA and NFAA member. I shot the State Spring field shoot but not the later summer shoot because of the distance from me. BUT I also spend a lot of time in another state shooting since they shoot more field and the ranges are all closer to me. I shot there State shoot as a guest as did a director from another state that happened to be in town visiting family that weekend.
> 
> ...


 there has never been a problem of a guest shooting


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## vegashunter55 (Dec 7, 2009)

In Nevada, a two day with 28 field and 14 animal and on Sunday the 28 hunter round. Lots of fun and lots of arrows.


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## TNMAN (Oct 6, 2009)

brtesite said:


> You won't have to worry about it after june 1. Every one can shoot at your state & sectionals without having to join NFAA if you don't care about being listed on the board. In fact , you will be able to shoot a sectional without being a member of a state


Not exactly right. This can only happen if an individual state or sectional think it's in their best interest and thereby allow it.


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## xring1 (May 28, 2008)

brtesite said:


> You won't have to worry about it after june 1. Every one can shoot at your state & sectionals without having to join NFAA if you don't care about being listed on the board. In fact , you will be able to shoot a sectional without being a member of a state
> 
> Don't be knocking the stick on patch:wink:


Iam not knocking the patch,I know where it come from! Iam saying $15 state dues $35 NFAA and $20 to shoot the tournament =$70 for a stick on patch please!!!! and no one can figure out why people wont come and shoot.


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## rsw (May 22, 2002)

Mike: I think it is ludicrous to turn away any shooters when the NFAA is eroding so drastically. State shoots used to host 150 or more shooters and today most states see more like 15-30. If they turn away "guests" they might not even have an event to host. Here in CO, we have a state org. not affiliated with the NFAA that hosted 65 shooters (thus all guests in a sense) at our state field championship. The CSAA hosted the NFAA affiliated championship the same weekend and had perhaps somewhat fewer participants, so we have a relatively healthy field archery activity here. However, the writing is no the wall here and many other places as well. The NFAA is doing little if anything to support MOST field archers so our organization continues to grow each year with an annual cost to a shooter of a mere $15.00 and they get the same benefits as NFAA members except national tournament eligibility. Those who want that also join the USA, CSAA or a different state org. Our shooting events far outnumber the CSAA to include several state championships annually. Bottom line here in CO is that the NFAA shortfalls have led us to a better world all around for competitive archers and there are now many more archers in the state than there were prior to our new organization. I fear this growing trend, which may spread around the states, may further erode the NFAA leading to an earlier death than expected.


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## brtesite (May 24, 2002)

rsw said:


> Mike: I think it is ludicrous to turn away any shooters when the NFAA is eroding so drastically. State shoots used to host 150 or more shooters and today most states see more like 15-30. If they turn away "guests" they might not even have an event to host. Here in CO, we have a state org. not affiliated with the NFAA that hosted 65 shooters (thus all guests in a sense) at our state field championship. The CSAA hosted the NFAA affiliated championship the same weekend and had perhaps somewhat fewer participants, so we have a relatively healthy field archery activity here. However, the writing is no the wall here and many other places as well. The NFAA is doing little if anything to support MOST field archers so our organization continues to grow each year with an annual cost to a shooter of a mere $15.00 and they get the same benefits as NFAA members except national tournament eligibility. Those who want that also join the USA, CSAA or a different state org. Our shooting events far outnumber the CSAA to include several state championships annually. Bottom line here in CO is that the NFAA shortfalls have led us to a better world all around for competitive archers and there are now many more archers in the state than there were prior to our new organization. I fear this growing trend, which may spread around the states, may further erode the NFAA leading to an earlier death than expected.


I completely agree with you. But what is the answer. The bottom line is do you want an NFAA or not. I know it is expensive for most. All this flack is over a couple of required shoots a year. The rest of the year ,the states do what they wish. 
if you that that it is better for the states to do their own thing, then that is the way it will go down.
All my rantings were over just trying to follow the rules. every one wishes to belong to the NFAA ,but don't want follow the constitution.
you can't belong to your club with out pay dues,can you?


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## rsw (May 22, 2002)

Mike:

I don't know what the answer is, but I fear that it could soon be the death of our national org. The success we have had in CO outside NFAA membership proves that unless you shoot the national championships, shooters really don't need nor care about the NFAA. Unfortunately, I suspect that is about 98% of archers.


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## brtesite (May 24, 2002)

rsw said:


> Mike:
> 
> I don't know what the answer is, but I fear that it could soon be the death of our national org. The success we have had in CO outside NFAA membership proves that unless you shoot the national championships, shooters really don't need nor care about the NFAA. Unfortunately, I suspect that is about 98% of archers.


Unfortunately I agree with you. It is the 35.00 that every one is complaining about. If membership was free there would be no problems.
there will be no nationals with out membership. What the people should be doing is to support the parent organization just because of what it is. You are having successes out side of the NFAA. Well whose games are you using? Is it the same mentality that is going on that we can take without giving back? Maybe. Every one is shooting the games & the rules that the NFAA has set up. You can't even shoot at a target face that wasn't designed by the NFAA. Don't you think that is worth the support that should be given. What about your own state, don't you require state membership to shoot in your shoots? 
The NFAA has all kinds of programs for the members. Most of the members don't even realize that there are such things. All those things take money to administer.With the price of bows ,arrows, broad heads, releases & what ever else we buy, $35.00 is not a big price to pay to belong to the best archery organization there is. 

Im out of here


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## field14 (May 21, 2002)

brtesite said:


> Unfortunately I agree with you. It is the 35.00 that every one is complaining about. If membership was free there would be no problems.
> there will be no nationals with out membership. What the people should be doing is to support the parent organization just because of what it is. You are having successes out side of the NFAA. Well whose games are you using? Is it the same mentality that is going on that we can take without giving back? Maybe. Every one is shooting the games & the rules that the NFAA has set up. You can't even shoot at a target face that wasn't designed by the NFAA. Don't you think that is worth the support that should be given. What about your own state, don't you require state membership to shoot in your shoots?
> The NFAA has all kinds of programs for the members. Most of the members don't even realize that there are such things. All those things take money to administer.With the price of bows ,arrows, broad heads, releases & what ever else we buy, $35.00 is not a big price to pay to belong to the best archery organization there is.
> 
> Im out of here


Mike,
I know what you are saying and won't disagree with it. However, there has to become a 'middle road' with this "member" versus non-member or "guest" stuff.
I do NOT like "freeloaders" that want to waltz on in and compete for the same awards as paid up members! To me that is inherently wrong. You won't compete in a sanctioned bowling tournament without becoming a member of the ABC; just won't happen.
One other option is to allow non-members to compete for the awards...but at a premium cost. For example, if the shoot is $20 for an NFAA member, then, for a non-NFAA member, to be eligible for awards, tack on another $5-$10 to THEIR registration fee! OR....if the non member can present a membership card to the IBO, ASA, or heck even an organized CLUB, then let 'em shoot for the awards...but if they are totally "non-member" status and don't belong to any organized archery association...they pay the additional entry fees until they up and join SOME association, period. They don't wanna pay the extra fee? Then nope, they don't shoot for awards. 
Now, that being said, my take on this is cumbersome, but on a local level, quite simple. ALLOW a "non-member" to shoot the tournament FOR AWARDS, but with this understanding: You get ONE and only ONE freebie. You can compete this time for the awards, but the next time you either join the organization, or you are NOT eligible for the awards.
Most folks will go along with this because many are simply wanting to try it out and see if they like it or not before committing to it. I've seen very few people that won't ante up for their second try. The BIG problem is the "old guard" that are worried about their two-bit trophy or medal and aren't willing to give newbies a "free chance" to try the events and organizations first and then join!

In addition, I still, to this day, feel that the NFAA needs a "publicity chairperson" (NOT the Vice-President, but a separate person) whose job it is to PROMOTE the NFAA...and if that means traveling to the Sections, etc, then it needs to be done. Obviously that would have to be a paid position, much like the Secretary.
IMHO, the SOME of the Directors do promote the NFAA in their State, while others are directors in name only and use the "designated representative" clause for range inspections and other things to excess. This is FACT, not fiction and no, I won't name names, so don't ask.
The clubs could help too, but they too, don't push it all that much because many of the older people in the clubs are tired of facing the same "anti-NFAA sentiment" that has been running rampant for years. Always trying to justify the field courses because "nobody shoots them"...but yet the target faces are all shot out and the bales are worn out...but those "anit-NFAA types" will swear that those holes got into the bales and target faces by some ghost or ghoule because, "NOBODY SHOOTS THE TARGETS, so why have them? They cost us more than we get back?"
On the other hand, however, the clubs are non-profit...but BRAG about the size of their treasury! They'll glady spend $4,000 or more on other things (you know what "other things" I'm speaking of) and won't say a word about that....but my heavens, when it comes to the NFAA course....it is like taking teeth out of a chicken! The clubs and local shops will promote the heck out of the rubber deer, however, but make ZERO mention of an upcoming NFAA event, even locally; the flyers get hidden or not even put out; been there and seen this done too many times to count.

Once again, howling at the moon, and the org keeps trying to do the same ole thing the same ole way and expecting different results. I'm thinking a "trial basis" of allowing non-members a ONE TIME competition for the awards and the next time either pay up or you aren't eligible is worth the try. Sure, record keeping can be problematical, but....if "non-members" are asked if they have shot the NFAA stuff before, they really aren't likely to lie, or if they do, they can't look you in the face, and you'll have your answer anyways.
We don't stand to LOSE all that much by allowing this....and remember, for every ONE that you turn away, you've more than likely turned away 20 of their friends and acquaintances, so it snowballs on you to turn people away. Their $10 registration fee....along with other newbies can make a huge difference...and they'll at least feel accepted and likely come back next time and ante up.

field14 (Tom D.)


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## rsw (May 22, 2002)

The Rocky Mountain Archery Association is a state membership organization. It costs $15 annually. We do allow non-member participation with a higher entrance fee. This org is not anti-NFAA, but members left the CSAA because of the dictatorial (also unconstitutional) actions of the leadership. In fact, given the opportunity, the RMAA would most likely welcome an invitation to join the NFAA although the vast majority of the members probably have no interest in national tournament attendance nor interest in any other NFAA benefits. 

It is a professionally run organization and a model for tournament operations. Although I have a CSAA membership, it is purely for voting and NFAA purposes. I don't participate in their events. There are very few RMAA members who have a CSAA membership.

Frankly, I don't believe it is the $35 fee that is hurting NFAA membership. It is simply the fact that people are less interested in field archery than in the past. The organization and its rounds and rules are the root problem along with the fact that there are far too many other recreation activities that are more highly favored by families for weekend recreation. For example, a field round is too long when compared to a 3D round and is also more attuned to the bowhunters' liking. Old time traditionalist philosophy continues to drive an antiquated org. and this precludes modernizing, a desparately needed revision, our rounds. I believe most archers would prefer an International round to the current field/hunter rounds because they are much quicker yet retain the charm of the walk through the woods casting arrows, require less maintenance, less land, fewer targets and less money to support. An even more radical approach which very likely might attract more archers would be to convert the animal round to 3D targets. At a minimum, delete that silly paper animal round completely.

I don't know if changes would help, but they damn sure wouldn't hurt our chances to attract more archers. Again, it isn't the little $35 membership that hurts - it is the overall org that is killing our great game.


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## field14 (May 21, 2002)

rsw said:


> The Rocky Mountain Archery Association is a state membership organization. It costs $15 annually. We do allow non-member participation with a higher entrance fee. This org is not anti-NFAA, but members left the CSAA because of the dictatorial (also unconstitutional) actions of the leadership. In fact, given the opportunity, the RMAA would most likely welcome an invitation to join the NFAA although the vast majority of the members probably have no interest in national tournament attendance nor interest in any other NFAA benefits.
> 
> It is a professionally run organization and a model for tournament operations. Although I have a CSAA membership, it is purely for voting and NFAA purposes. I don't participate in their events. There are very few RMAA members who have a CSAA membership.
> 
> ...


\
Holey moley...The RMAA is STILL in existence after all these years? I competed in the RMAA Field Championships back in 1970, and our Club, the Red Arrow Archers of Casper, Wyoming won the RMAA team event that year as well. I still have the Ribbon and the Championship Medal from that event! It was held up on Casper Mountain just out of Casper, Wyoming that year. Ivan Winder won that event with his Carroll RECURVE bow and ledge release. I was still competing with fingers and recurve and while I shot barely over 500 (I think it was a 504), I couldn't even get close to Ivan's 550 that he shot on Saturday on the field course (old style scoring). It is good to know that the association still exists; you brightened my day, Roger!

I'm inclined to agree with Roger concerning CHANGE for the antiquated NFAA rounds outdoors, and many of the antiquated rules. The idea of the 10-target, 3 arrows per target "International Round", shot on both FIELD faces AND Hunter Faces is a good idea, IMHO. It is easy to set up, doesn't take near the work or maintenance, and you don't have those "silly" fans and walk-ups to deal with and all the associated rules about target changes and left to right, or top to bottom or bottom to top to deal with and make people remember; or pay the dear price of a zero! People I know get confused on it and think it is "stupid" and "out of date." I'm a field shooter at heart, and even at my age and tenure, I think it is high time the NFAA modernize and join the rest of the world on many fronts, including the one Roger speaks of above!

The idea of paying more if you are NOT a member, but still be allowed to compete is solid, IMHO, and is a definite option and step in the right direction! Why turn people away totally because they don't want to ante up the full registration AND a full membership at that time? You lose them; not only then, but likely forever. Let them pay the extra $5-$10 for that event and let them know the cost of full membership and also that members get a lower shooting fee, and accept them; they'll likely come back and bring friends with them!

field14 (Tom D.)


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## rock monkey (Dec 28, 2002)

here's a "radical" idea.......

have tiered membership. for the sake of discussion, State&NFAA dues are $50. the state's portion of State&NFAA membership is $30. not ALL NFAA members are 'big event' shooters. why not have the option to join the state org +$5 or $10 for insurance and other minor administrative costs. the state only level member can compete in state events for awards. anything more like sectionals or nationals they would have the option to join the NFAA for the difference.

you wont alienate your state minded shooters. the more serious shooters will still join the national org. clubs dont feel forced to enforce the ambiguous guest/visitor rule.

as i said before, the single biggest issue is the EGOMANIACS that would enter and win the Guest/Visitor class and get an award. in their small mind, they won state. they have an award that says so. we have a big enough issue in archery in general with the 'PRO' staff confusion.

NFAA PROs, no option. they must still join both State and National orgs.


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## Spoon13 (Feb 20, 2007)

rock monkey said:


> here's a "radical" idea.......
> 
> have tiered membership. for the sake of discussion, State&NFAA dues are $50. the state's portion of State&NFAA membership is $30. not ALL NFAA members are 'big event' shooters. why not have the option to join the state org +$5 or $10 for insurance and other minor administrative costs. the state only level member can compete in state events for awards. anything more like sectionals or nationals they would have the option to join the NFAA for the difference.
> 
> ...


The biggest problem with that idea is that the NFAA already struggles financially. For a while and maybe even now, they used/use money from the WAF to offset the shortfall. If we changed to a tiered dues system and only the shooters interested in Sectional and National level events pain National dues, the NFAA would die. 

Now addressing the the "modernization" of the rounds we use. 

Several people have said that the International Round is the savior of the NFAA. Really?? How many States or clubs have actually put the theory into a practical application?? What were the results?? If you think the International Round will do that much good, try it and let us all know how successful it is. The States can use ANY round ANY time they want to, yet I haven't heard of a lot of people utilizing that round or how many more shooters they got because of it.

Here in NC, the folks that support the NFAA/NCFAA like shooting the Field and Hunter Rounds when it comes to shooting Outdoors. Those are the games we know as Field archery. Even if we shot the International Round and added 10% more members, is it worth it to irritate the other 90% by not shooting the rounds they like??

And when it comes to time on the range, it's a push. I used this illustration in another thread and I'll repost it here. If it takes 10 mins to address, judge, shoot, score, and move on to the next target on a 3D range, times 20 targets you get 200 minutes. That's 3hr, 20 minutes. If you add 2 minutes to each target, that's 240 minutes or 4 hrs. Either way, it's the same amount of time it takes to shoot a Field or Hunter Round and you only shoot 20 arrows vs 112. I'm not buying into the "too much time" idea. Sorry.


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## brtesite (May 24, 2002)

Spoon13 said:


> The biggest problem with that idea is that the NFAA already struggles financially. For a while and maybe even now, they used/use money from the WAF to offset the shortfall. If we changed to a tiered dues system and only the shooters interested in Sectional and National level events pain National dues, the NFAA would die.
> 
> Now addressing the the "modernization" of the rounds we use.
> 
> ...


the international round died in NJ


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## gripNrip (Oct 7, 2003)

I agree with Kade and sevetral others here... I to am an NFAA and State member, but, in South Carolina. I enjoy shooting at some of the North Carolina clubs. I have come to know the members there as a great group of guys and I have shot in a State Field at Yadkin, as a guest. That club is two and a half hour drive from me and I could not consider being a member there... that would not be practical. It is not about shooting it "one time just to see". I enjoy shooting field more than just in one shoot in my state. I have never been turned away, I understand that I will not be compeeting for awards with the state guys, no big deal, I just want to shoot in a compititive format. My club, in South Carolina does not turn shooters away at any state shoot, they may shoot as a guest. 

All that being said... The bottom line is that promoting archery will always benifit both the local club and the State and National FAA. I do not know how anybody can say the same about turning archers away form a shoot. 

IMHO...


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## doukima270 (May 18, 2007)

I was a member of the WSAA (Washington ST) and NFAA for 27 years. All I every got was a magazine and a news letter, plus it help are club get insureance. I shoot in Darrington Feild Championships 4 times in that 27 years had great fun. I still didn't know how the NFAA was helping archery? If any thing it pissed people off. I shoot my frist IBO last year what a OVER GLORIED 3-D shoot that was I cost me $40 buck to shoot one day and 200 people showed up
More and more pepole shoot 3-D than feild now,they don't have to belong to any club to shoot and they only have to shoot 40 arrows in a day that all most of them can handle. I loved shooting feild shoots It made me a better shot for hunting. Just wish we had more of them but 3-d is a better way for clubs to make money. I still dont know what the NFAA did but take my money and build a new building.


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## rsw (May 22, 2002)

I don't pretend to know that the International round would be a "saviour" of fleld archery; however, it is essentially the very same game with minor variations which at the same time produces significant advantages to the clubs - less financial and labor resource expenditure being a very, very large one. Fewer targets require less money to procure, less labor to maintain (probably the biggest problem of all for a field archery club), and much less land required to layout the range.

Don't fool yourself at all about the time consideration. Probably the biggest hindrance today is the 5-6 hours required to host a field archery shoot versus 3-3.5 hours for a 3D round (which is more fun for most archers anyway) and you can see why field archery is dying more and more each day. The international is simply a downsized field round which takes less than half the time of a full blown field round in most cases while eliminating the annoying aspects of that field round (for many prospective field archers who try it once and say its too complex and silly).


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## rsw (May 22, 2002)

Tom:
Our RMAA is not the same RMAA as you and I know from the old days. I cherish a couple of championships I won back in the 70s in that great regional organization. Unfortunately, as field archery began its demise, so did the original RMAA. Our new CO RMAA is the offshoot org. that erupted when the CSAA despotic leadership went berserk a couple of years ago. A major segment of we CO shooters finally had had enough so we migrated into our own state org. that is going strong with a dynamic membership of participants. What is nice about it is that we have indoor/indoor mail-ins, as well as several field, target, AND 3D shoots all wrapped up into one state organization and almost all of our members compete in all venues.


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## field14 (May 21, 2002)

rsw said:


> I don't pretend to know that the International round would be a "saviour" of fleld archery; however, it is essentially the very same game with minor variations which at the same time produces significant advantages to the clubs - less financial and labor resource expenditure being a very, very large one. Fewer targets require less money to procure, less labor to maintain (probably the biggest problem of all for a field archery club), and much less land required to layout the range.
> 
> Don't fool yourself at all about the time consideration. Probably the biggest hindrance today is the 5-6 hours required to host a field archery shoot versus 3-3.5 hours for a 3D round (which is more fun for most archers anyway) and you can see why field archery is dying more and more each day. The international is simply a downsized field round which takes less than half the time of a full blown field round in most cases while eliminating the annoying aspects of that field round (for many prospective field archers who try it once and say its too complex and silly).


I definitely agree with you on this. It is amazing and I still find it difficult to comprehend, but the proof is indeed in the participation levels of the 3-D orgs. People don't seem to give one rat about how MANY arrows they shoot over a given time period, they care about it being EASY and FUN and NOT WORK. They work all week and simply want to have something quick and easy to compete in or to just go out and get some fresh air. So to them taking 3 1/2 hours for only 20 shots and getting to be outside and kibitz more than shoot is right up their alley.

To we 'die-hard' field shooters this makes absolutely no sense, since we would rather spend the 4 to 5 hours to shoot 28 targets, 4 shots per target and 112 arrows in that amount of time.

As much as I like my field shooting, the days are numbered as the land keeps getting soaked up, and there aren't any replacement field shooters coming into the game. The round, as it now stands is indeed antiquated, and as you put it, "silly", what with walkups and fans and all the little nuances about changing target faces and shooting positions. THAT needs to be changed and/or eliminated, IMHO. However, with the current leadership, it isn't going to happen. We can't get them to budge one inch to go with the rest of the planet with regard to age limits on Seniors and Master Seniors; can you imagine trying to cut the field round and hunter round down to 10 targets and a max of 65 yards...even though FITA field is very close to this with their 3 arrows per target round?
A person putting in this proposal would be laughed out of the room in seconds and the issue not only turned down, but burned and then the person submitting would be burned in effigy too!

Change is inevitable, yes, but in the case of the field or hunter rounds, I think the NFAA leadership would rather die than switch.

field14 (Tom D.)


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## RASIB (Nov 30, 2006)

brtesite said:


> Unfortunately I agree with you. It is the 35.00 that every one is complaining about. If membership was free there would be no problems.
> there will be no nationals with out membership. What the people should be doing is to support the parent organization just because of what it is. You are having successes out side of the NFAA. Well whose games are you using? Is it the same mentality that is going on that we can take without giving back? Maybe. Every one is shooting the games & the rules that the NFAA has set up. You can't even shoot at a target face that wasn't designed by the NFAA. Don't you think that is worth the support that should be given. What about your own state, don't you require state membership to shoot in your shoots?
> The NFAA has all kinds of programs for the members. Most of the members don't even realize that there are such things. All those things take money to administer.With the price of bows ,arrows, broad heads, releases & what ever else we buy, $35.00 is not a big price to pay to belong to the best archery organization there is.
> 
> Im out of here


We don't hear much flack about the national dues. The problem I have explaining to people is the additional money for the state organization when other associations do not require it. ASA and IBO are both at 30.00. Why should they pay additional for a state organization.


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## field14 (May 21, 2002)

RASIB said:


> We don't hear much flack about the national dues. The problem I have explaining to people is the additional money for the state organization when other associations do not require it. ASA and IBO are both at 30.00. Why should they pay additional for a state organization.


I do see your point to some extent. Sometimes even I, as a 43 year member of the NFAA along with State membership in the States I've lived in over that time period, I think "some" State Associations aren't really supporting the needs of their constituents....but.....read on....

Just where do you think the STATE ASSOCIATIONS are supposed to get the money from to hold the State Indoor, State Target, State Field, and State 3-D events? Do you think it grows on TREES? The NFAA does NOT just up and GIVE those awards to the hosting clubs for the Sanctioned NFAA State Championships and events. $10 fees aren't going to cut it if the State has to foot the bill to do this. The State Association only gets a part of those registration fees taken in...the host clubs get the lion's share, which they should. Where are the State Associations going to get the money to have YOUR State Director attend the NFAA meetings, and handle the other requirements of being a Sanctioned STATE Association? The NFAA is afterall an association of STATES...
This is not the same thing as the ASA or the IBO, which are PRIVATELY owned enterprises!

The only other alternative is to charge something like TRIPLE the present registration fees and DEMAND that ALL participants are members of the NFAA...or they do NOT shoot for NFAA Awards? 

Seems that the "non-members" or as I call them "free-loaders" want to compete for the SAME awards as the paid members...but not have to pay for membership at all, and just walk in off the street, belong to nothing, shoot up the targets, complain about paying anything, and still be able to shoot for the same awards and "honors" as a paying member, take the system for all that it is worth, and go on their merry ways.
Pay for NOTHING, but reap all the benefits? Sounds like the ILLEGALS, and many of the people of the I/ME generation we have today sucking the paying people dry.

Blast away, but this NFAA/STATE ASSOCIATION member is opposed to non-members shooting for SANCTIONED awards and "official" State Champion status...if you don't pay up and ante up, then don't expect to compete for those "official" titles.
Just try to compete in any other sport in their 'sanctioned events' without being a member. Bowling? Member of ABC to compete even in a league. Member of the local association to compete in a "City Tournament", etc, etc, etc.
field14 (Tom D.)


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## JMJ (Jul 17, 2008)

Here is what the TAA has come up with for the upcoming season ...

There is a clause in the NFAA constitution that allows state associations to have up to 5 shoots per year that are not NFAA sanctioned in efforts to grow state membership.
This year we're having an American 900, International, and Marked 3D that are all state sanctioned shoots.
And for a measley $5.00 membership fee, you can compete for TAA awards and be eligible for recognition as TAA State Champion.
This does not give these new members the right to compete for NFAA awards in the state Indoor, nor state Outdoor.
Nor does it give them any insurance benefits. Only the chance to compete and be recognized as TAA State Champion in the 3 aforementioned shoots.

We are also having a company make new state association award pins for us.

We plan to market the heck out of this plan for 2012 ...
Then next year, hopefully we can convert some of these people to NFAA members.
Come TAA board meeting time in December, the $5 will be increased.
Therefore, those that don't want to go all out for NFAA dues, will pay more in 2013 for TAA only membership.
Building the numbers at state level is the 1st step toward national level growth.

As the nubers grow, at some point growth will eventually take care of itself.
The more people you have, the more "attractive" it becomes to be a member.

P.S. Have any of you guys ever actually seen the policy for NFAA insurance?
I've run into a bit of difficulty getting my hands on anything other than the usual general summary that they send out.
But I've been assured that it's on the way. ??


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## brtesite (May 24, 2002)

RASIB said:


> We don't hear much flack about the national dues. The problem I have explaining to people is the additional money for the state organization when other associations do not require it. ASA and IBO are both at 30.00. Why should they pay additional for a state organization.[/QUOT
> 
> It was set up that way to protect the states . you have to join thru the state to be an NFAA member. This is how the states wanted it set up


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## Spoon13 (Feb 20, 2007)

field14 said:


> The only other alternative is to charge something like TRIPLE the present registration fees and DEMAND that ALL participants are members of the NFAA...or they do NOT shoot for NFAA Awards?
> 
> Seems that the "non-members" or as I call them "free-loaders" want to compete for the SAME awards as the paid members...but not have to pay for membership at all, and just walk in off the street, belong to nothing, shoot up the targets, complain about paying anything, and still be able to shoot for the same awards and "honors" as a paying member, take the system for all that it is worth, and go on their merry ways.
> Pay for NOTHING, but reap all the benefits? Sounds like the ILLEGALS, and many of the people of the I/ME generation we have today sucking the paying people dry.
> ...


Any State shelling out awards to non-members is CRAZY but I don't know of anybody doing it that way anyhow. The Good Book doesn't allow it now and even with the new rule taking effect in June, it still doesn't allow it. If you want to shoot for awards, membership is REQUIRED. All we ever wanted was to allow non-members to participate in the event. If we followed the rules as they were written, any non-member had to be turned away and not allowed to shoot and the State was not allowed to accept the registration fee. Now we can at least accept the fee and allow them to shoot in the event and participate without having to manipulate the system somehow.

Here in NC, when it comes to our Outdoor State Championship and the SE Sectional, we tend to put our best foot forward. We do a few other things that are special to those events that we don't do at any other secondary shoot. Why not allow folks to come participate and use that as a recruiting tool?? Prospective new shooters can now see how much fun can be had at a shoot and how "special" the State Championship and Sectionals are and use that experience as the foundation and validation of becoming a member.


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