# long draws



## mrheikes (Dec 6, 2010)

6'1" 30inch


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## NeilM (May 22, 2006)

I'm 6'1" and with a slightly bent left arm I draw 30.5". For many years I shot with a locked out left arm and 31" DL


Here I am at full draw, and pretty straight across the shoulders and square to my hips.

My leading arm is dropped slightly, as it was a downhill shot.


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## big cypress (Jul 31, 2006)

6 foot with 75'' wing span and 29 1/2 draw shooting fingers


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## b0w_bender (Apr 30, 2006)

5' 11" and a 70.5" wing span. My draw length is 30.75" so Either I'm the real knuckle dragger or you folks aren't using the ATA standard drw measurment. I do use a locked arm and I would say I have longer than average arms but... You can see my anchor point from my profile and my draw arm elbow is inline with the string So I don't believe I'm over drawn.

I would think a 6' 4" dude would have a 33 inch draw at least probably more. BibBob29 can you post a picture so we can see your anchor point?

ATA Standard:
The ATA Standard Draw Length is arrived at by measuring the "Draw Length to Pivot Point" which is the distance from the string's nock point to the pivot point of the grip, and adding 1 and 3/4 inches. The 1 and 3/4 inches represents the average distance from the far side of the bow to the bow grips pivot point. Manufactures use this ATA Standard Draw Length when they designate the draw length of a bow. Since is has long ago been determined that the most accurate bows are ones that have the cushion plunger set at the pivot point that is where most of them are.


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## shadowhunter (Oct 12, 2003)

At 5' 10" and 74.5 wing span I must have been stretched on a torture rack at some point. Used to have a 32'' draw, straight arm, in the beginning but now with a slightly bent arm I am shooting 30" comfortably with thumb under my jaw like BOw bender.


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## MR get greedy (Jul 24, 2005)

70.5 wingspan is a 28.2 dl I'm 6'5" with a 79.5 wingspan my dl is 31.6


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## Zonker (Dec 2, 2010)

bigbob29 said:


> Wonder if any one else with arms like a gorilla can tell me what draw length they have comparative to height and 'wing span' I am 6'4'' and my wing span is 75''. According to what I have gleaned on the matter, [ add an 1/2'' for every 1'' over 71''] that should make my draw 30'' but subtract 1/2'' to 1'' for some one with big hands and long fingers[me] that gives me around 29'' to 29 1/2''. i currently am at 30 1/2''. I do feel I could shorten a little as I sometimes feel to be leaning backwards slightly. I am soon to get a camcorder which should give me a visual on stance etc.What draws do other knuckle draggers use?


You 'Ape Factor' is calculated from: Your wingspan - Your height

Your Ape Factor = 75 - 76 = -1 inches

Sorry you don't have gorrilla arms, you are quite human.



shadowhunter said:


> At 5' 10" and 74.5 wing span I must have been stretched on a torture rack at some point. Used to have a 32'' draw, straight arm, in the beginning but now with a slightly bent arm I am shooting 30" comfortably with thumb under my jaw like BOw bender.


Your Ape Factor = 74.5 - 70 = +4.5 inches

This is very high, you are genuine ape man. Grats


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## red44 (Apr 11, 2005)

The wing span method is'nt concrete as you can see.
It does'nt take your build into the equation.
I'm 6', w/75" wing span, shoot 30" cams with fingers. I'm not barrel chested with a short neck.:wink:


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## bigbob29 (Sep 7, 2009)

If i thought i was mildly confused before re draw lengths, boy has that changed. Now I am totally confused. Some of those wing spans versus heights are really out there which to me demonstrates that using any 'formula' for determining specific form issues is fraught with danger. I will post a photo as soon as the minister for war and finance gets home from work to take the shot.Bowbender, if you dont mind me saying, you do appear to be listing aft just a little? NeilM looking good.Thanks everybody for your imput.


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## Hank D Thoreau (Dec 9, 2008)

I am 6'4 and have my compounds set to 31 inches. My recurve draw length is about 32 1/2 at full expansion. I do not know my wingspan but I do not have really long arms for my height.


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## bigbob29 (Sep 7, 2009)

*lond draw*

Here's that shot of myself at full draw. Just giving myself a critical analysis I look to be leaning back a little. I get the feeling i couldnt shorten maybe 1/2'' to 1'' what say you?


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## bigbob29 (Sep 7, 2009)

that was supposed to read could have shortened not couldnt


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## 88jackrabbit (May 13, 2009)

I don't know my wingspan. I do know 6' tall, and I need shirts with 37" sleeves. 32" draw length with the left arm bent.


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## bigbob29 (Sep 7, 2009)

Bowbender my amo draw is 31 1/4'' I still feel it could be shorter as I feel myself leaning back on some shots.


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## Bruce K (Jun 1, 2002)

Get a couple of more photo's with your arm parallel to the ground , and one from behind to see how in line you are , it is hard to tell when you are pointing at the ground like that . Search for Jim parks photo analysis it will help you to get an idea of the photo's needed


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## bigbob29 (Sep 7, 2009)

Bruce k will get some more shots later when missus is at home. Only problem is she is only 5'7'' and i am 6'4'' as i mentioned so that is why there is a height bias. Maybe i can get her to stand on a stool!


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## bigbob29 (Sep 7, 2009)

*long draw.*

Here 's a couple more shots that may be better. my main thought with all this is that I feel myself seeming to lean back slightly on longer shots and dont really feel my scapula or related back muscles coming in to play at the completion of the draw. I usually get a clean drama free release with the fingers and tab [static release ], have relaxed bisceps, maintain good stance but dont appear to invoke back tension. This does make my release a little anticipated occasionally with the resultant small 'flinch' at release. This of course spreads my groups a little. Would a shorter draw allow me to feel those muscles a little better and allow my draw elbow to move horiziontally and make the release more unexpected?


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## b0w_bender (Apr 30, 2006)

MR get greedy said:


> 70.5 wingspan is a 28.2 dl I'm 6'5" with a 79.5 wingspan my dl is 31.6


Sorry Draw length cannot be determined by a formula. This would assume that everyone's neck is the same length and the length of your fingers would determine the length of your arms. It also would assume that everyone uses the exact same point for anchor and that every shooters face has the same dimension. Every archer determines their own comfortable anchor point not some arbitrary rule developed by formula. DL formulas are a rule of thumb not a definitive answer. Don't get hung up on a formula at the detriment of your shooting.



bigbob29 said:


> .Bowbender, if you dont mind me saying, you do appear to be listing aft just a little? NeilM looking good.Thanks everybody for your imput.


Thanks for the input, I agree it does look that way. Listing backward can in fact be caused by a DL that is too long. It can also be caused by a bow that is too heavy and by bad shooting form. As a Youth I developed this habit of thrusting my hip out in the front. I was in a relatively small unsophisticated archery community and no one thought anything of it. I have battled it ever since. I have lightened my bow significantly and this has helped. I have fiddled with a bunch of different draw lengths and believe that I have found my DL nirvana. I video tape my stance and shooting form regularly and have made significant improvements. My current form is dramatically improved from this older picture. Thanks I'm glad you noticed.

For those of you who are still open minded to draw length and it's relationship to form and aiming John Dudley wrote an excellent article that can be found on his website, it's called "Setting the correct Draw Length"
http://www.dudleyarchery.info/articles/GL121drawlenght.pdf

Enjoy


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## b0w_bender (Apr 30, 2006)

OK I've tried to illustrate what I'm talking about when it comes to anchor point and DL relationship. Below is Bigbob with the traditional Instinctive anchor up near the eye. While Mine is a low below the jaw anchor. You can see that Bobs Arrow in comparison to his shoulder joint creates a much larger triangle than my anchor does. This in affect shortens the DL since the distance between point A and B is shorter. Bob your elbow may be just a touch high but it maybe totally camera angle too the elbow being a little high is actually recommended by many so I think you maybe OK but it's something to look at.

You guys maybe able to tell I have the hip thrust thing going on a little in this picture.


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## bigbob29 (Sep 7, 2009)

Thanks bowbender for your appreciated input. I would feel that the elbow is mostly camera angle. I did have the better half on a step ladder to take the shot but it was still a little low. My question though still remains in that I dont feel much in the way of back tension at or just before release. I have a static release, ie 'just refuse to hold the string' and the hand remains anchored at the corner of the mouth. If i try to invoke back tension and have my draw elbow move horiziontally [ the only way it can go] so as to expediate a 'suprise release' with the subsequent drawing back of the draw fingers, it doesnt happen.I am very happy with the mechanics of my present method, but the unwanted side effects of sometimes anticipating the fingers relaxing means I 'flinch' and momentarily lose the sight picture at release.This of course means looser groups.


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## b0w_bender (Apr 30, 2006)

Ya well welcome to the world of finger shooting 

You say you have a dead hand I notice a lot of my kids that I coach are the same. I tend to discourage this and here is the analogy I give. When two teams are playing a tug of war the arrow team and the hand team what happens when the rope breaks the arrow goes one way where does the other team go?

If it's a relaxed semi-surprised release your hand has to move backwards right?

Also because your anchor is so high it will be difficult to transfer the draw weight to your back because the back muscles are not inline with the force of the draw. It can still be done but at a lesser effectiveness I would guess. This is because your arm muscles will still need to be engaged through out the shot.

Do you gap shoot or are you completely instinctive? Oops I may have used a term not everyone is familiar with gap shooting is using the tip of the arrow to aim where the gap between the tip and the target gets smaller as you get farther away. Instinctive is more like piking up the bow and shooting it when it feels right, kind of like tossing a stone in a bucket the more you do it the better you are at it. If you are a gap shooter you may consider lowering your anchor if the release is you biggest problem. However if you are spot on the tip at 20yards with that anchor then perhaps you'll want to stick with it. It's been a long time since I was a bare bow shooter so correct me or enlighten me if I'm missing something.


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## bigbob29 (Sep 7, 2009)

Thanks again bowbender. I have been shooting for the best part of 30 years, and I shoot instinctive, and my style is best described as visualising the cast of the arrow as I come to full draw. Usually it works well, but i am trying to improve my scores a little to attain a higher grading and just going through the points I feel I may need overhauled to improve. My draw bicep is quite relaxed at full draw meaning i must be transfering the weight to my back muscles .I have been following a program going through all the form steps, and implementing a meaningful practice regime, and feel the main issue may be slightly losing focus on the target at the critical point , which is just a form problem I will have to get around.I dont wish to contradict your expertise at all but have read where quite a few finger shooters actually implement a static release? I feel at ease with my release procedure itself, just felt my draw could come in perhaps a 1/2'' or so.


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## b0w_bender (Apr 30, 2006)

No problem Bigbob discord is healthy, nothing is ever improved without it. I would be willing to accept that that a dead hand is OK if someone can convince me that a hand that is pulling 20 pounds can remain completely static when that weight is instantly removed. Or that there is some other intrinsic value worth the effort of remaining static. So far my feeling is, to keep the hand static you must be actually apply an action to your arm at the end of the shot. This would be equivalent to grabbing the bow. it's just one more thing you are asking your brain to do in the correct sequence during the shot. It can be done I've seen some great shots do it but in MHO they are achieving excellence despite the hill they have chosen to climb. Not that I'm inclined to follow the herd, but I have yet to see a gold medalist do it.

Shooting instinctive bare bow is definitely a challenge and this is what makes it so exciting. I actually go watch the BB guys in Vegas its a joy to behold when it's working. I aplaud your efforts keep up the good fight.


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## bigbob29 (Sep 7, 2009)

G'day there bowbender. Purely for the reason that I would argue hot was cold simply for the verbal exchange, I must add to your point that a static [ dead] release can remain stationary, may I return to the proverbial bucket I mentioned earlier. If one is holding a pail of sand or water with extended arm as it would be at full draw and simply cease to hold the handle would one's hand rebound from the release or simply remain where it was? On my bow at full draw i am hard against the wall, and with the relaxing of fingers the hand stays virtually where it was at anchor, and having the hand move back is a deliberate action that doesnt contribute to the release as the string is already on its way and it would only be useful as a completion of form sequence., ie, touch the shoulder or such.I am sure that we will amicably agree to disagree on this?


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## b0w_bender (Apr 30, 2006)

Yes I think we would agree to disagree, I appreciate the banter though, thanks, it's always good to challenge ones own thought process.
The most important thing is that you have confidence in what you are doing and it certainly sounds like you are confident in your technique. Stick with what ever you feel most confident with.

Oh the draw elbow thing I mentioned before I agree with you totally camera angle. I went back and looked at the other pictures you posted and everything looks good and in line to me.


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## bigbob29 (Sep 7, 2009)

Hope you and yours had a great Christmas and will have a safe and happy new year, and may peace come to our troubled times.


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## b0w_bender (Apr 30, 2006)

Right back atcha big guy happy holidays and a pleasant and safe new year!


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