# Deep Hook Release'ers...Riddle Me This....



## Easykeeper (Jan 2, 2003)

I've always though of a deep hook as being in the first joint of the fingers with the fingers having at least a 90 degree bend and maybe pointing back at me a bit. Tension is in the palm side of the fingers to hold the string and the rest of my hand is as relaxed as possible. Some might go to the second joint but I don't think I'd like it.

Because of the length of my fingers and the relative position of the first joint between the three, I'm in the first joint of my middle finger and index, but slightly out on the pad of my ring finger. If I put the string in the first joint of my index and ring finger, my middle finger has the string half way to the second joint. My ring finger doesn't hold much of the weight but I do keep it on the string.


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## LongStick64 (Aug 29, 2009)

From my experience the deep hook helps against a pluck release, if you use your finger tips you are likely plucking to some degree.


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## T2SHOOTER (Feb 26, 2014)

Used to do fleshy release, but went to first joint on index and middle fingers, with a lazy ring finger, and it works well. Can't even imagine going to second joint. To each his/her own.


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## Hank D Thoreau (Dec 9, 2008)

Jinx,

I have always thought that the definition of a deep hook was a mystery at worst, and ambiguous at best. I used to try to find pictures of it on the internet, but to no avail. Depth is relative. I have had a coach adjust my hook to be deeper when he thought it would help. I have tried various depths of what folks would call a deep hook. The deepest hook I have ever used had the string cross my index finger at the second joint, and the ring finger at the first joint. And it does come off. The trick is to take the load on the skeletal system of the hand and wrist so that the muscles are as relaxed as possible. As you expand, the fingers uncurl from around the string. This can only occur if your elbow is wrapping around behind your head as you go through the expansion and release process. Otherwise, you are just pulling harder on the string and the only way to release is to relax the hand and let go. A good check is to look at your hand after release. If you fingers are curled, just like they would be when relaxed at your side, then there is a good chance you did it correctly. If you have a flat hand with your fingers splayed and pointing toward the target, you did not release correctly. My coach used to yell at me to stop "shooting the bow" when I did that. Funny thing is, I saw a picture of him at a recent shoot showing him doing exactly that, "shooting the bow". I had to give him a hard time because of it.


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## Jeb-D. (Sep 21, 2011)

Some sources I've found say that deep hook has more to due with the amount of curl in your fingers than how far up the finger you place the string (assuming sting in first joint, not the tips).


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## JParanee (Oct 13, 2009)

No one anchors with the second joint from the tip that I know of 

But I don't know everyone and everything


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## 4 Fletch (Jan 25, 2014)

Most recent practice w the longbow I experimented w a deep hook, which I defined as between the first and second finger joints, counting from fingertips. 

And I was astounded at the control I had. Holding at full draw was easier too. 

Yes I too had been taught to hold on fingertips, and after reading_ Shooting the Stickbow_ I moved to first finger joints. I think I'll be staying between first and second. 

If the snow melts I'll be out trying that again. While it seems excessive, man it gives so much more strength and control... 

Now to answer your question, well, my anchor must've moved. It had to, because the tip of my index is still in the corner of my mouth. Sorry Jinkster, I'm no help to you at all. 
Guess we wait for Viper and Moebow...


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## Joe Ryan (Jun 8, 2014)

Jinkster- As you described the deep hook, it would certainly be a challenge to "loose" the string, unless, of course you have no teeth and anchor with your mouth open. Seriously though, the deepest you would go would be to place the string on the middle finger midway between the first second joints, the index and ring finger would cradle the string just inside the first joint, approximately, according to your skeletal structure. Then, as you draw, you smoothly roll the string into the first joint of the middle finger, not really conscious of where the string lays in the index and ring fingers. Those fingers will seem to be more relaxed. As you relax your hand "loose" the finger tips will be pushed out of the way. Make sense ?


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## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

Okay...this is actually kind of funny in that it seemed to me that in the past if anyone mentioned the attributes of the term "Deep Hook"?...folks would jump on that buzz-like-term as though it were a first class flight too release utopia but at the end of the day here?...the term either lacks any true definition or has many definitions? :laugh:

I thank everyone for their input and now I have the feeling that this?...concludes my ghost hunt for the oh-so elusive "Deep Hook". :laugh:

Thanks Folks.


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## Sanford (Jan 26, 2009)

You can have a deep hook with your fingertips pointing back at you and flat back of hand. Sounds more like you are opening your fingers with finger tension from a static release. If relaxed string hand/fingers, and your hand is dynamically moving back and away, they just uncurl - the hand is moving back as the fingers uncurl and allow the string to pass them. There's no face interference that way.


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## Hank D Thoreau (Dec 9, 2008)

JINKSTER said:


> Okay...this is actually kind of funny in that it seemed to me that in the past if anyone mentioned the attributes of the term "Deep Hook"?...folks would jump on that buzz-like-term as though it were a first class flight too release utopia but at the end of the day here?...the term either lacks any true definition or has many definitions? :laugh:
> 
> I thank everyone for their input and now I have the feeling that this?...concludes my ghost hunt for the oh-so elusive "Deep Hook". :laugh:
> 
> Thanks Folks.


Jinx, now that we have the deep hook out of the way, we can discuss bone on bone.


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## Nekekal (Dec 25, 2012)

Interesting. As a novice with no one to show me, I read a lot about hook. And I have tried almost everything. It turns out that I have some sort of nerve in the actual joint of my fingers and if the string gets into that crease, it hurts like hell. So, while I don't know where the deep hook is, I know that it is not with the string in either of the joints. 

The glove I use does cover the first joint, but not the second. And the first still hurts. Even with a thick glove. Going above that joint, up towards my wrist, didn't seem to buy me anything so I am down on the pads. But I have found that it works better if I keep my fingers curled so that the tips are pointed about at a 45 degrees towards straight back. 

But it is more pads, even weight on all three fingers and the release is not causing arrow wobbling problems. And it doesn't hurt.


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## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

Hank D Thoreau said:


> Jinx, now that we have the deep hook out of the way, we can discuss bone on bone.


:laugh: like he11!!! LOL!!!


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## Moebow (Jul 8, 2010)

In the NTS (USA Archery's instruction), the definition of a "deep hook" is:

The string in or near the FIRST joint (from the finger tips) on the index and middle finger and on the pad of the ring finger. The finger tips of the index and middle finger are pointed BACK towards the shooter and the string does NOT roll or move in any way in the fingers during the draw. A deep hook in this program is NOT how far into the fingers the string goes (towards the palm) but rather how curled the finger tips are with the string in or near those joints.

Nekekal, YES! Some have a sensitive nerve that runs through the center of that joint so we get still more specific. The string lays just in front (towards the finger tip) of the joint on the index finger, and just behind the joint on the middle finger. The string STILL is NOT allowed to move during the draw. That keeps the nerve out of the game.

Everyone probably knows exceptions to this and exceptions that work well for various individuals. Finger tip, second joint, etc. Gloves are frequently problematic for the "deep hook" as they generally don't allow the finger tips to point back towards the archer. This is one of the reasons you seldom if ever see the top shooters (Oly/target style) using a glove.

Now on to "bone on bone" ... :wink:


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## GEREP (May 6, 2003)

All depends on who you ask I guess. 

This is what I've always thought of as a "deep hook."












KPC


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## Sanford (Jan 26, 2009)

Sometimes we get too wrapped up the process. The goal is just of having the fingers where they can be in their better relaxed state to the line of force. 

Find it where you may by finger digits and rulers or just try to mimic a position and let it be what it be, but if you notice by the two pics below, the one marked "incorrect" is incorrect because any time the fingers are required to hold the string tension at an angle to the hand, they require finger muscle tension to hold the position. This lends to pluck.

The second pic marked "correct" just shows that the line of force is at the apex of the finger hook and parallel with the pulling hand, therefore, the fingers are not holding it, the hook is.

Just go back to the old adage of practicing by "picking up a bucket" and dropping it, as in Gerep's instructions posted. If you had a heavy bucket to pick up, look at both pics and decide where's the strongest use of and the less tension on your fingers?


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## Hank D Thoreau (Dec 9, 2008)

Does NTS use the term deep hook? I have not seen the NTS coaching material. I did not find it in the KSL documentation, though there is a very good chapter on hooking. The concept is clearly meaningful, but not if there is not an agreed upon definition. It seems to be one of those terms that is left open to individual interpretation.


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## Sanford (Jan 26, 2009)

Hank, I think terms are defined within the discipline, so the exclusion of others is on par. NTS might just consider it the hooking of the string. There would be the base level suggested starting point, where later, between coach and archer, the refinements can be worked in deeper or shallower or angular. But, this concept also fits into the whole picture of backtension and release. NTS is a "system" more than a defined template. A backtension and dynamic release is also a system. They require relaxed finger loosing.

Now, take a snap-shooter or someone with a pure dead release that require dropping the string. Here, I've seen it taught by many as a fingertip release. NTS hooking would be a deep hook in this case.

In this regard, between the fingertip folks and hooking folks, the "deep hook" gets defined.

As to the deep hook not working when fingers are at a face anchor, that's not true, though. You can curl your fingers till the tips touch the palm, and if you are employing the whole process that goes with a deep hook, it will still work and the face will not impede it. In that regard, anchor location and grip method are not dependent. There's a good training method that actually goes with practicing from a fully closed hook - when you can learn to make that happen, you have gained a lot of insight.


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## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

Leave it too moebow...now some serious info is falling out of various closets...thanks folks and carry on...cause now it's getting interesting.


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## Nekekal (Dec 25, 2012)

Moebow said:


> In the NTS (USA Archery's instruction), the definition of a "deep hook" is:
> 
> The string in or near the FIRST joint (from the finger tips) on the index and middle finger and on the pad of the ring finger. The finger tips of the index and middle finger are pointed BACK towards the shooter and the string does NOT roll or move in any way in the fingers during the draw. A deep hook in this program is NOT how far into the fingers the string goes (towards the palm) but rather how curled the finger tips are with the string in or near those joints.
> 
> ...


Thanks, I am doing something almost right. I have the curl right, but when I do that, the creases of my joints all line up, so the string goes just in front of my index joint, and in front of the middle finger joint, but on the pad of my ring finger as you describe. Two out of three is not bad. With this hook I get better arrow flight and my fingers don't go numb.


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## SuperGrizRiz (Jan 1, 2014)

GEREP said:


> All depends on who you ask I guess.
> 
> This is what I've always thought of as a "deep hook."
> 
> ...


I have been shooting a compound bow since I was 8 years old. I am 35 now and have used a release since I got my first adult compound (bear white tail with those funny rollers on the riser). This past year I bought a super grizzly recurve. #55 pounds. Yes that is a lot of bow to start traditional archery on, but I have no problem drawing and holding back the bow. I just have to recognize when I start to get fatigued and take a break. Got good heavy arrows from 3 Rivers and started practicing. Every 3rd arrow or so I get this crazy combination of up and down and left and right tail wag on my arrows. I have slowly been fixing things and this thread just corrected the majority of my problems. Breaking the habit of elbow up/palm down string arm position from compound shooting has been hard. Now I shoot three under and holding the string as pictured above has fixed all my issues! Palm facing my cheek, deep hook release and elbow down (not really down, just way lower than when I shoot compound) with the tip of my middle finger in the corner of my lip has drastically improved my shooting. Arrows fly perfectly straight and I am now getting about 4 inch groups at 15 yards, until I get tired. 

Now I have to train to undo 27 years of wheelybow shooting habits!


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## Matt_Potter (Apr 13, 2010)

JParanee said:


> No one anchors with the second joint from the tip that I know of
> 
> But I don't know everyone and everything




I shoot two under - string is in the second joint of my index finger and the first joint of my middle finger. Is it right?? No clue but it works for me LOL

Matt


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## Tracker12 (Sep 22, 2003)

Easykeeper said:


> I've always though of a deep hook as being in the first joint of the fingers with the fingers having at least a 90 degree bend and maybe pointing back at me a bit. Tension is in the palm side of the fingers to hold the string and the rest of my hand is as relaxed as possible. Some might go to the second joint but I don't think I'd like it.
> 
> Because of the length of my fingers and the relative position of the first joint between the three, I'm in the first joint of my middle finger and index, but slightly out on the pad of my ring finger. If I put the string in the first joint of my index and ring finger, my middle finger has the string half way to the second joint. My ring finger doesn't hold much of the weight but I do keep it on the string.


What he said.


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## Hank D Thoreau (Dec 9, 2008)

I found deep hook, in of all places, Shooting the Stickbow. That's the only book I have ever found it in. It is not in Total Archery, Archery Anatomy, or Archery Steps to Success. I don't recall seeing it in The Simple Art of Winning, and have never read the Heretic Archer. Am I missing anything? Now can we start talking about bone on bone?


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## Huntinsker (Feb 9, 2012)

Good thread Jinks. I've been wondering how my string hook and release could improve and I think this is the answer. I've heard of the deep hook but it never made much sense to me to hold the string that deeply on my fingers. With the explanation on this thread, I can see how it could be beneficial. Of the two pics that Sanford posted, I'd be closer to the one on the left. A little deeper than that but not much. It definitely doesn't look as relaxed. 

So now that I have a new thing to try, how does one go about making sure you get a clean release from a deep hook? I've watched several high speed videos of some of the worlds top shooters and the best I can tell is that they simply relax the fingers enough for the string to pull itself on bye. Is that correct? Should you simply relax the fingers or should you actively release the string like dropping a hot potato?


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## Mo0se (Sep 24, 2002)

Here ya go..

http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=1878971


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## Rick Barbee (Jan 16, 2013)

Maybe I've been doing it wrong all these years, but this is what I call a deep hook.
Just in front of the first joint.









Rick


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## Hank D Thoreau (Dec 9, 2008)

In the KSL method the hook is at an angle with the index finger deepest and the ring finger shallow. I tried to pull the picture but Kisik Lee has changed his website. You used to be able to find his whole book on line.

Weight on the fingers is approximately 40%, 50%, 10%. This is for split finger.


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## Sanford (Jan 26, 2009)

Hank, I did Google an excerpt from Archery: Steps to Success:

"The reminders about the draw and string hand hook discussed for the under-chin anchor apply to the side-of-face anchor as well. The draw should be straight back to the erect head with a deep string hand hook and relaxed hand. Set the draw hand and draw to anchor the same way on every shot."

Advise on how deep, how much curl, type curl, weight distribution, etc., will always vary some by coach, but I think our main point of focus for deep hooking is that it has a wayward cousin in being too shallow. But then, it also has a wayward relative in too deep.


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## Hank D Thoreau (Dec 9, 2008)

Sanford, maybe I have an earlier version. There was little said about the hook in my copy of the book. It was one of the things that disappointed me about it.


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## drawemback (Dec 6, 2006)

But what about the 30 degree downward angle that seems to be very popular with a lot of shooters? Kind of goes against these pictures and deep hook descriptions...


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## Sanford (Jan 26, 2009)

Hank D Thoreau said:


> Sanford, maybe I have an earlier version. There was little said about the hook in my copy of the book. It was one of the things that disappointed me about it.


Hank, I don't have a copy but remember it being a pretty short, but sweet, archery instruction book. I read it off the shelf one afternoon at B&N by more skimming than an in-depth reading. I think for my string grip, I had always used the plated tabs like Cavalier, and they having the set for string depth and nocking location, that's where I started. I'm sure over time my grip has morphed one way or the other, but I am always mindful of setting it up the same. Clicker shooting did teach me that getting too far out and the fingers creep during expansion, so keeping the hook "deep" (read: keeping hooked) means a lot in that regard.


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## GEREP (May 6, 2003)

Rick Barbee said:


> Maybe I've been doing it wrong all these years, but this is what I call a deep hook.
> Just in front of the first joint.
> 
> View attachment 2109794
> ...



Rick:

If I were you, I'd raise your brace height a little bit...that string looks a little loose.



KPC


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## Mr. Roboto (Jul 13, 2012)

I bought the Total Archery book because it had a whole chapter on hooking. Why? People keep telling me to hook it deeper when I shoot, and a deep hook helps when it rains. But no one explained exactly what this nebulous term was. Prior to this, I shot from the finger tips. So I spent a few months trying to do what the book described, trying to copy the pictures in the book. But after several months of pain in all of my string finger joints (not just the joints where the string was, but all the other ones up stream of them into the hand), I abandoned the technique. It took a couple more months before that pain went completely away.

I am now using a technique where the sting is in the first joint in my first and second fingers, and about the middle of the pad on the ring finger. I am working on getting the first two fingers curl backwards towards the face/neck at full draw. When I release, my hand only goes back an inch or two where the fingers are touching the ear. I anchor with the middle finger to the corner of the lip.

Is this a deep hook? I don't know, but it is a whole lot more comfortable to shoot with than the KSL turn your hand inside out technique, and I don't pluck as often as when I used my finger tips.


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## Hank D Thoreau (Dec 9, 2008)

I have used the hook in Total Archery for quite a few years. I also like the chapter on hooking in the book. You used to be able to find the chapters on line. Maybe you have to register on Kisik Lee's website now. Does not matter to me since I have the book. It is my favorite archery book.


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## Stone Bridge (May 20, 2013)

Every archer is going to hold the string slightly different. I wouldn't try to emulate any one coach or shooter. Understand the parameters of a proper hold do vary and work within them until you get a feel or release you are happy with. No person should try to copy any other shooter exactly. It might work, and it might not. Some people in field archery shoot very well with only 2 fingers. The only thing I'd avoid is holding on the very tips of your fingers. That is courting disaster and hard on your hands and tendons.

I have read the KSL information and find it closest to what I do naturally. (for hold) Most people could do worse than to hold as per this method. But do try everything once. It's like batting stances in baseball. Just because one great player holds his bat at the ready in a particular fashion does not mean all hitters should have a similar stance. We are not all built the same way.


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## olddogrib (Apr 4, 2014)

I try to emulate something akin to R. Barbee's pic but if you think one size can fit all, if I took a picture of my string hand in the position he shows my index finger is only as long as the first joint of the middle. The third or ring finger is slightly shorter than the middle, very similar to his. In order to hook at all, due to the physiological "hand I was dealt", pardon the pun, the string rides in the first joint of my index, between the first and second of the middle and back in the first joint of the ring, but I'm playing around with backing it off to the pad to lessen the pressure it's exerting. The bones of those second joints look like stairsteps when viewed from the top of my hand.


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## MrSinister (Jan 23, 2003)

looks like it is well covered now. No mystery at all the pictures cover it.


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## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

I want to take a moment to thank everyone...lots of good knowledge, thoughts and experiences being brought forth here. :thumbs_up

I like Sanfords commentary regarding the fingers uncurling with a clicker when the hook isn't deep enough....I've experienced that one first hand several months ago.

I also like how many recognize that this is not a one size fits all deal including one poster that has "nerve issues" when hooking against the first joint cartilage...fortunately for me?...I'm fine with that but the main reason I brought this topic up is because I'm in the process of breaking in my new full shot glove and want it done right...I've had gloves in the past before where once the string groove began to develop in the glove or tab?...right, wrong or indifferent?...it remained there.

I might also note that with gloves?...I've had finger stalls twist on me in the up front of break in and they stayed that way as well....so with the full shot glove costing $69.95?....I definitely want it to come out right the first time so I'm doing my best to "Train It" into breaking in..."In The Proper Position".

As I work my way through this process?...it has become glaringly apparent that there there may be some truth to earlier versions of the big shot glove being a bit short on finger stalls which may have added to my aggravation with the clicker as a result of a string placement that was in fact uncurling my string fingers...and the more I shoot this full shot model?....it seems the more that comes too light as I'm really digging the deeper hook I'm able to get with it...I've got many arrows to go before I'd consider it "broken in" but this is what I have so far...I enhanced the string path of both gloves primarily because the string path on the full shot is still barely visible but it's starting...










again?...thanks for all your input here everyone. L8R, Bill.


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## Paul68 (Jul 20, 2012)

GEREP said:


> All depends on who you ask I guess.
> 
> This is what I've always thought of as a "deep hook."
> 
> ...


Wow. That is a remarkable picture, and honestly, the way my son naturally grips the string. Kids do a lot of things the right way because they don't spend a lot of time overthinking the act. Ironic that this topic came up as I've been reading Viper's book and thinking a lot about what deep hook is and why/why not it's good for the release. This depth does help me lock out the back of my hand and keep alignment thru the drawing system. It looks antiquated to me (almost out of a drawing of archer's of old), but works. I'll spend some time working a new groove into my tabs, but will have fun doing it. 

Thanks for all the replies and help on this topic. This honestly has made in a big difference in my approach.


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## Sanford (Jan 26, 2009)

Speaking of not having "uniform" anatomy to apply to "template" methods, a good while back on similar discussion I had posted the picture of the hand I was dealt . 

Here's what old injury left me to deal with on the string hand. The Vulcan grip :


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## Hank D Thoreau (Dec 9, 2008)

Sanford said:


> Speaking of not having "uniform" anatomy to apply to "template" methods, I have posted this a good while back on similar discussion.
> 
> Here's what old injury left me to deal with on the string hand. The Vulcan grip :


Maybe you should shoot split finger....

(I can't be the first to have said that)


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## Sanford (Jan 26, 2009)

Hank D Thoreau said:


> Maybe you should shoot split finger....
> 
> (I can't be the first to have said that)


Yeah, if fate had been a little kinder on finger selection, it could have been the perfect no-pinch string grip. Funny thing about it, though. The finger juts abruptly only when fully open. As I close them, the hinge is kinda odd in coming around the arc but does close up the gap. There's a slight callous bump you can see on the right edge that can never be avoided - tried every finger pressure and alignment but the same result. I can only assume the opening for loose means it's coming back outward.


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