# 2017 Rule Changes



## chrstphr (Nov 23, 2005)

Nice to see changes for many of the topics and issues that were debated here.

I like the changes for guests, the rebranding, the seating area, and JOAD team changes. 

Bravo to USA archery for listening. 


Chris


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## Rylando (Jul 30, 2016)

A. So can coaching credentials still be bought even if the person is not a legit USAA certified coach?... sorry this concern comes from the hordes of parents in the joad lines who take up all the room they possibly can under tents by just buying a pass and not actually doing anything but taking room under tents away from archers. What was the price of coaching credentials before?

B. The junior and below barebow divisions haven't had eight or more competitors in indoor nats yet? I thought they had?


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## erose (Aug 12, 2014)

I like the changes. Kudos to USAA for listening to folks out there. The only thing I see that may become an issue is that if non-Americans cannot participate in elimination rounds that there will probably be fewer making the trip.


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## sask hunter (Jan 27, 2007)

erose said:


> I like the changes. Kudos to USAA for listening to folks out there. The only thing I see that may become an issue is that if non-Americans cannot participate in elimination rounds that there will probably be fewer making the trip.


Not one non-American will make the trip to attend any of those events because now the competition is only a single 720 (1 day event) - they attend to get elimination practice against world class competition, now the US archers can play with themselves, they will never know how they compare or stack up until the event...this is very disappointing.

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## chrstphr (Nov 23, 2005)

well, on the other side, there are archers who did not make the USA team because a non american archer shot in the eliminations and eliminated them from the tournament. Costing them valuable placement points. They shouldnt be in the mix if rolling rank points are being decided for the US teams. 

Non american archers are welcome to come compete as a guest in qualifications and in team rounds. 

I feel this is the right direction. 

Chris


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## sask hunter (Jan 27, 2007)

chrstphr said:


> well, on the other side, there are archers who did not make the USA team because a non american archer shot in the eliminations and eliminated them from the tournament. Costing them valuable placement points. They shouldnt be in the mix if rolling rank points are being decided for the US teams.
> 
> Non american archers are welcome to come compete as a guest in qualifications and in team rounds.
> 
> ...


In Canada, we have seperate trials when picking teams, and we do allow non-canadian archers into our elimination rounds.

Does this mean these shoots lose their international ranking because no international archers are attending? 

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## >--gt--> (Jul 1, 2002)

USAA finally implementing the same rule as every other WA NGB with respect to nonqualified shooters bolloxing up national team selections. 

And thank goodness they're making people cover up those yoga pants.


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## chrstphr (Nov 23, 2005)

The Arizona cup was the only international ranking tournament in the USA. The rest are not ( Outdoor Nationals, Socal, Gator cup, Texas etc).

The Arizona cup may not be an international ranking tournament in 2017. I heard that was changing after last year. 

Chris


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## OCBrent (Sep 27, 2007)

Hmmm, we've got a large number of folks "long term residing" in SoCal at various levels of "Immigration Status", both Adults and kids. Training seriously. It would be a shame if they couldn't compete. From reading this section (2.4):

https://rulebook.worldarchery.org/PDF/Official/2016-10-01/EN-Book1.pdf

It sounds like they just need to reside in the USA 1 year, have a USA passport (or permission from whatever country their Passport is from to compete for the USA) .
(I could see that maybe an issue at the moment for Russians, Middle Easterners, Philippines, or whoever is currently pissed at us. 

And I looked good in Yoga Pants. Now I'm goanna have to wear a Skort (I didn't even know what those were) over them.

Brent


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## sask hunter (Jan 27, 2007)

chrstphr said:


> The Arizona cup was the only international ranking tournament in the USA. The rest are not ( Outdoor Nationals, Socal, Gator cup, Texas etc).
> 
> The Arizona cup may not be an international ranking tournament in 2017. I heard that was changing after last year.
> 
> Chris


Okay, I see...thanks for the info. Just wish they would leave Arizona alone...lol.

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## mcullumber (Jul 31, 2006)

sask hunter said:


> Okay, I see...thanks for the info. Just wish they would leave Arizona alone...lol.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G900W8 using Tapatalk


The Arizona Cup has chosen not to be a WRE in 2017. This decision was not due to the USA Archery policy change, but due to the requirements that WA has asked the WRE to do. The cost for us was just too much. We decided not to be a WRE way before this policy was even discussed.


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## Vittorio (Jul 17, 2003)

Sad for the AZ Cup being no more a world ranking event. It was the only one ranking event existing in the world not limited to National team members only. And of course, no more teams from othe r countries as of the limit to the qualification round only. 
By the way, not ALL countries do the same about participation limits to foreigners. Usually, international tournaments and all tournamnts registered to WA are open to international archers with no limits everywere. Limits are applied everywere of course to National Championships only, but in case they are also open, two elimination rounds are held, one for national champion titles and one as open event. In some areas it is like this also for Continental championships.
National teams selections follow very differen rules country by country, from pure qualification scores during the previous season to machplay results on specific tournamnts. Most used system is the first one mentioned, simpler to apply. For instance, Italian national teams have 3 entry ways: xxx cumulative score during 3 competitions of the previous season, getting medal at OG, WC or WC final, or by decision of the national coach. Then, budget dictates how any places for each national team are available every year.


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## Azzurri (Mar 10, 2014)

chrstphr said:


> The Arizona cup was the only international ranking tournament in the USA. The rest are not ( Outdoor Nationals, Socal, Gator cup, Texas etc).
> 
> The Arizona cup may not be an international ranking tournament in 2017. I heard that was changing after last year.
> 
> Chris


That was what I was getting out of some changes in the way AZ seems to be approaching things plus this. It's not listed as WRE with WA Americas and they shifted to more like a normal USAT schedule for next year. And if the foreign archers can't advance that's another nail in it.

I enjoyed the international competition. I think at least one domestic WRE, even if it's off the USAT circuit, is to our benefit. I grant the purity that this gives AZ competition in domestic USAT terms but I think making people up their game that early in the season serves a useful purpose.

I get AZ should do what they find comfortable, right expense, etc. It's their show. But I think having something like that is beneficial.


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## Azzurri (Mar 10, 2014)

I am amused that a coach in the new seating area costs more than a spectator.


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## TomG (Dec 4, 2002)

I just contacted USA-Archery and got a hold of Sheri Rhodes. She did confirm that any foreigner that has resided for more than 1 year will need a release letter from their "home" organization.

It sounded simple to her, I'm not sure it will be for the individual archer. I'm not sure what this letter would need to state, and what language. I'll see what I can get... 

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## chrstphr (Nov 23, 2005)

Aizona cup was trying to do too many things in my opinion and had grown too big to put on a great tournament. Last year cutting to 63 for eliminations with more than 104 in the divison left a sour note for a lot of archers. 

While i miss having a WRE event in the US that is open to any archer, i didnt like that the AZ cup was turning into a one day shoot for hundreds of archers. 

Chris


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## sask hunter (Jan 27, 2007)

Do you feel this change may mean more archers shooting NFAA events?

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## chrstphr (Nov 23, 2005)

sask hunter said:


> Do you feel this change may mean more archers shooting NFAA events?
> 
> Sent from my SM-G900W8 using Tapatalk


no, i think that Arizona cup will move from a must shoot tournament to a maybe shoot tournament. There are other USATs for qualifying where the field is not a full and making the elimination cuts are easier. Most will look at cost per arrow when shooting a tournament that involves travel. 

I love the Arizona Cup. It was my first USAT in 2006 and second tournament ever. My first heads up match happened there, (against Wietze Van Alden), my first world ranking points ( only world ranking points). I have a warm spot in my heart for that tournament. But since 2006 it had grown to overwhelming numbers, adding cadets, became a Para qualifier, USAT qualifier, US World Team trials, Olympic trials, WRE event, etc etc etc. 

A good tournament can only have so many masters. 


Chris


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## mcullumber (Jul 31, 2006)

It will be an interesting year for the AZ Cup. For the last 5 years or so we averaged about 130 International archers. I do not see that happening again. We have added the Masters category, so we will get a few to make that up. We are 1st half of one of the World Team trials (72 arrow score only), so we will get those archers. Quite frankly we do not anticipate a huge drop in participation, but we expect some. We might get a few more cadets due to being three days, not four and we have heard from some international archers who know about the new policy, but just want to come out and shoot early in the year and then do a little sight seeing in the area (they need to spend all that European vacation time they get, LOL). The Cup will continue to evolve, who knows maybe it will become independent, serving an entirely different clientele. Only time will tell.


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## >--gt--> (Jul 1, 2002)

Vittorio said:


> Sad for the AZ Cup being no more a world ranking event. It was the only one ranking event existing in the world not limited to National team members only. And of course, no more teams from othe r countries as of the limit to the qualification round only.
> By the way, not ALL countries do the same about participation limits to foreigners. Usually, international tournaments and all tournamnts registered to WA are open to international archers with no limits everywere. Limits are applied everywere of course to National Championships only, but in case they are also open, two elimination rounds are held, one for national champion titles and one as open event. In some areas it is like this also for Continental championships.
> National teams selections follow very differen rules country by country, from pure qualification scores during the previous season to machplay results on specific tournamnts. Most used system is the first one mentioned, simpler to apply. For instance, Italian national teams have 3 entry ways: xxx cumulative score during 3 competitions of the previous season, getting medal at OG, WC or WC final, or by decision of the national coach. Then, budget dictates how any places for each national team are available every year.


It's not the only world ranking event open to non national team members- the Bangkok leg of the Asia Cup is (or at least, has been) an open event. 

The current Az Cup venue does not and probably cannot ever meet WRE standards. A dirt field in the middle of nothing doesn't make the grade (no matter how great the volunteers running the thing are). That is the reason for the loss of world ranking status. No real facility.

If the competition were held at the ASU campus with decent facilities, the option to stay in the dorms, and access to actual infrastructure as was once the case, that would be a different matter, and international participation might reach the levels seen in the past.


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## sask hunter (Jan 27, 2007)

Right now this is a huge downer for international archers.

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## TomG (Dec 4, 2002)

sask hunter said:


> Right now this is a huge downer for international archers.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G900W8 using Tapatalk


Who knows, this might encourage US shooters to go to Canada. Any tournaments you can think of? 

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## sask hunter (Jan 27, 2007)

We had the dream team at our Canadian Nationals they competed as guests in the qualification rounds but were entered in the Canadian Open eliminations...

The Canada Cup is an double 720 and elimination round it bounces from Maple Ridge BC to Prince Albert, Sask year to year...

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## Arsi (May 14, 2011)

Just a quick look at the AZ Cup scores, 50% of the top 64 cut were non-US archers. A total of 58 archers were cut (9 non US). After removing all non-US, only 17 get cut. I took a look at the bracketing and I probably would have won my first match and had a very close match in the 2nd round. Had I won that I'd go against Matt Requa and most likely have lost that one in the 1/8th round.

If someone paid me what I usually charge companies to do further analysis, I could extrapolate the probabilities of change to the final 2016 USAT rankings across all USAT + Nationals had non-US archers been removed. Maybe I'll do it for fun if work slows down.

Or if someone wants me to send them an invoice...


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## wa-prez (Sep 9, 2006)

sask hunter said:


> Right now this is a huge downer for international archers.


I can see the difficulty of having international archers in the elimination rounds, possibly eliminating a strong American from the resulting placement.

MAYBE there could be a separate bracket for the internationals, so they too can get the experience of head-to-head competition and eliminations.


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## sask hunter (Jan 27, 2007)

And we love coming to Phoenix with a purpose of competing in that environment. And a single 720 is not enough of a reason to come any longer 

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## Varza (Sep 11, 2014)

sask hunter said:


> And we love coming to Phoenix with a purpose of competing in that environment. And a single 720 is not enough of a reason to come any longer
> 
> Sent from my SM-G900W8 using Tapatalk


Yes, it is disappointing, isn't it? I am still working my way up but I was eyeing those types of tournaments one or two years down the line, just for the experience. Not like I'd make it that far anyway, but I'm not about to fly halfway across the country to just shoot a qualifier round. I can do that as practice on my local range, thank you very much!

So I guess those shoots are out of my plans, now. Are there any outdoor shoots of that caliber that aren't USAT qualifiers, even?


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## sask hunter (Jan 27, 2007)

Look to canada and the Canadian nationals and Canada Cup, Ontario Spring Classic - etc.

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## Varza (Sep 11, 2014)

sask hunter said:


> Look to canada and the Canadian nationals and Canada Cup, Ontario Spring Classic - etc.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G900W8 using Tapatalk


Thank you for the tips, will do!


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## Ms.Speedmaster (Dec 10, 2010)

TomG said:


> I just contacted USA-Archery and got a hold of Sheri Rhodes. She did confirm that any foreigner that has resided for more than 1 year will need a release letter from their "home" organization.
> 
> It sounded simple to her, I'm not sure it will be for the individual archer. I'm not sure what this letter would need to state, and what language. I'll see what I can get...
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G920A using Tapatalk


Tom, thank you for taking the time to explain this to us, last night at X10, in what was quite possibly a great starter for a joke... An Englishman, Englishwoman, Irishman, and Frenchman walk into an archery range...

This is HUGE.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Some very good and welcome changes there. 

I am smh at the "premium seating" and increase to $70 for a coach's credential however. The wealthy families will of course just pay this and get better access than those who cannot afford it. Why we are not simply requiring a coach's credential based on their certification level, is beyond me. It's an insult to those of us who have put in the time to become coaches and volunteer our time to work with archers, to have someone who simply pays the fee be allowed in the competition area. They should require anyone in the competition area to either be an actively competing archer who is shooting that round, or a personal or team coach for those archers, with a L2 certification or higher. If we're going to have a national coaching certification system, then it should be used for this purpose as well.


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## midwayarcherywi (Sep 24, 2006)

I applaud USAA keeping coaches out the shooters area. It's just not necessary. It will be a welcome relief not to see a coach per JOAD shooter spotting arrows at the waiting line.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Hmm, that's not how I read that. I guess we'll see what happens in practice though.

What I see there is another opportunity to make $ because anyone who can afford it will pay the $50 for the "premium" seating in the shade, just to avoid having to bring a canopy. Helicopter parents should be thrilled though. 

Making a coach pay $70 to be in a position to help their archer though. We'll see how well that goes over.


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## chrstphr (Nov 23, 2005)

limbwalker said:


> They should require anyone in the competition area to either be an actively competing archer who is shooting that round, or a personal or team coach for those archers, with a L2 certification or higher. If we're going to have a national coaching certification system, then it should be used for this purpose as well.


I agree, i think L2 and up should be able to purchase the coach credential. Or a JOAD coach registered with USA archery. 

Chris


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## Casualfoto (Mar 10, 2009)

The shame here is that the Arizona Cup should have retained it's WRE status and given up it's USAT status.


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## >--gt--> (Jul 1, 2002)

Casualfoto said:


> The shame here is that the Arizona Cup should have retained it's WRE status and given up it's USAT status.


That would at least require another venue.


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## Casualfoto (Mar 10, 2009)

Maybe a venue in the real Northeast. Additionally, truth be told, the early April date is without question a gimme to the RA's.


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## >--gt--> (Jul 1, 2002)

The early April date predates the RA program by a considerable number of years. It is a "gimme" to the possibility of heatstroke if held later in the spring.

It's not the Michigan Cup after all.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

chrstphr said:


> I agree, i think L2 and up should be able to purchase the coach credential. Or a JOAD coach registered with USA archery.
> 
> Chris


I'd be okay with that. The idea that anyone can be that close to the archer's tent doesn't set well with me. There are plenty of parents that I do not want behind my archers. Believe me. They don't even need to be behind their archers!


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## RickBac (Sep 18, 2011)

Casualfoto said:


> The shame here is that the Arizona Cup should have retained it's WRE status and given up it's USAT status.


Not financially feasible.

The costs associated with the new WRE requirements were prohibitive.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

It's hard for me to believe that we can't have a WRE in the U.S., for any reason.


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## Casualfoto (Mar 10, 2009)

Can you tell us what WA requirements drive up the cost?


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## >--gt--> (Jul 1, 2002)

Casualfoto said:


> Can you tell us what WA requirements drive up the cost?


https://worldarchery.org/world-archery-events#WRS_Events


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## mcullumber (Jul 31, 2006)

Casualfoto said:


> Can you tell us what WA requirements drive up the cost?


WA in 2014 sent out The World Ranking Events Requirements that was adopted by the WAExecutive Board, December 2014. It directed all WRE to adopt the following policies and features

1. Result system needs to be fully compatible with ORIS and ODF (IOC standards).
2. Collect arrow values for each arrow and transfer all data to WA.
3. Live data feed to the Continental/WA/Games/National websites. Automatic Twitter feeds also.
4. Must have a dedicated "Iconic" Finals field with spectator stand or seating in L or U shapes
5 Audio Systems for music and voice
6. Videoboards (JumboTrons) and/or LED screens for viewing the finals
7. Production for the videoboards with a minimum of 4 cameras
8 WA and WAA field branding
9. Have a dedicated Sports Presentation Team including an announcer in the local language and English
10/ Must us the WAORS as the entry system for all athletes.
11. Provide WA/ WAA a selection of 10 high resolution pictures and a one page article each day of the competition
12. Internet access on site of a minimum of 2 MB up and down link.
13. Target lanes a minimum of 1 meter wide.
14. Bring in a Technical Delegate form WAA, expenses paid.
15. All Archers must be abide by the WA Dress code. Shirts with last name and count on back. All sponsor advertisements and logos must comply by WA rules.
16. Individual medal matches, Team rounds and Mixed Team matches must be shot in alternative format. 

Estimated cost for the AZ Cup was $25,000.00 or higher.

Hope this answers the question.

WRE in most of the world attract around 100 to 150 participants. Most WRE in the Americas average around 125. The tournaments are Sunday (arrival day) to Sunday (departure day). We figured here in the US we will get no more than 200 archers at best.


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## mcullumber (Jul 31, 2006)

>--gt--> said:


> https://worldarchery.org/world-archery-events#WRS_Events



Thanks George


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## >--gt--> (Jul 1, 2002)

Mike

I think your estimate is super conservative, isn't it? 

25k would barely cover video boards and stands, in my experience.


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## mcullumber (Jul 31, 2006)

>--gt--> said:


> Mike
> 
> I think your estimate is super conservative, isn't it?
> 
> 25k would barely cover video boards and stands, in my experience.



A bit. We were depending on a few things to happen, like range expansion and the creation of a finals venue, but the money at the facility was tight. I found a small videoboard to rent and we had thoughts of having the local high school video department come out with their equipment, but again some technicalities stopped that. Since the AZ Cup is run by the State Association and "profits" go into state programs and back into the upkeep of the equipment, it was not worth the chance of going into the red. We are sad to see it go, but we will start another chapter in the history of the event. 2017 will be the 28th year. Change is constant.


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## Casualfoto (Mar 10, 2009)

I would agree with George that 25K is conservative. But if other countries are making it work with 100-150 participants, why can't it work here with 200 participants? Or is that your guess at 200 assumes that the event is also a USAT event?

Seems to me that the requirements are more like World Cup requirements than WRE requirements.


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## mcullumber (Jul 31, 2006)

Casualfoto said:


> I would agree with George that 25K is conservative. But if other countries are making it work with 100-150 participants, why can't it work here with 200 participants? Or is that your guess at 200 assumes that the event is also a USAT event?
> 
> Seems to me that the requirements are more like World Cup requirements than WRE requirements.


The majority of WRE are subsidized by Government funding. The funding may come from the NGB, but that money comes from the Government. Very few actually "make" money, it's more of a prestige thing.

Yes, WA want to up the quality of the WRE's, so they look more like a World Cup.

The AZ Cup doesn't even provide the transportation that other WRE's provide. This means transporting all athletes from the hotel to the venue and back each day.

I would encourage anyone to actually look at the costs of putting on a USA Archery/WA type tournament. The costs are much higher than many people think. With limited corporate sponsorship for archery, athletes wanting higher prize money and higher facility costs, it puts much of the burden on entry fees.

Last post for me on the subject, PM me if needed.


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## Arsi (May 14, 2011)

I appreciate the information, Mike. Along with you and your team's time and dedication to putting on a great shoot year after year. Even with the changes I'm sure it will be a great event either way. Always has been, and I feel like it always will be.


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## mcullumber (Jul 31, 2006)

Arsi said:


> I appreciate the information, Mike. Along with you and your team's time and dedication to putting on a great shoot year after year. Even with the changes I'm sure it will be a great event either way. Always has been, and I feel like it always will be.


Thank You!


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## total.diva (Nov 12, 2016)

>--gt--> said:


> USAA finally implementing the same rule as every other WA NGB with respect to nonqualified shooters bolloxing up national team selections.
> 
> And thank goodness they're making people cover up those yoga pants.


whats wrong with yoga pants 


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## Jim C (Oct 15, 2002)

total.diva said:


> whats wrong with yoga pants
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk




people pushing things. like no briefs underneath them 

thin ones 

etc


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Jim C said:


> people pushing things. like no briefs underneath them
> 
> thin ones
> 
> etc


Again,


> whats wrong with yoga pants


LOL.


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## taz00 (Jun 28, 2015)

total.diva said:


> whats wrong with yoga pants


It depends on who is wearing them...


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## archeryal (Apr 16, 2005)

As a judge, I need to see the exact wording. I can see women saying, "these aren't yoga pants, just a tight style of pants." I hope the standard is clear and enforceable. The camo rule was vague and confusing and the closed toe shoe rule didn't consider Crocs. I agree they don't meet the "professional athletic appearance" standard. Leotards? "Of course they're athletic - I work out in them." I'm not looking forward to dealing with theat discussion.


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## OCBrent (Sep 27, 2007)

Ya know, "tights" and Archery have been entwined forever. Forever example given by long ago 1938 Robin Hood Movie starring Errol Flynn:









According to Wikipedia:
====
In 1995, the film was deemed "culturally, historically, or aesthetically significant" by the United States Library of Congress and selected for preservation by the National Film Registry.[2] It is considered by some to be one of the greatest films ever made.[3]
====

It would be un-American to ban "Tights / Yoga Pants" from Archery. 

Most USATs are held in Windy places. You don't want your pants blowing into the Limbs or String Path. Besides the hit in performance, it could also cause a wardrobe malfunction! For the safety of all involved, and "consideration of one of the greatest films ever made": Yoga Pants should be mandatory at all USATs.

That's what I hear others are saying. Not necessarily me.

Brent


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## Seattlepop (Dec 8, 2003)

What's wrong with yoga pants? This is a classic..."If you have to ask...".


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## erose (Aug 12, 2014)

OCBrent said:


> Ya know, "tights" and Archery have been entwined forever. Forever example given by long ago 1938 Robin Hood Movie starring Errol Flynn:
> 
> View attachment 5065209
> 
> ...


I doubt you would like to see me in yoga pants. Heck I don't want to see me in yoga pants.


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## TomG (Dec 4, 2002)

https://youtu.be/G59JnM4JKNQ


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## georgiaarts (Sep 30, 2016)

I like the new changes, thanks USA Archery!


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## chrstphr (Nov 23, 2005)

Well, now USA archery has changed everything back to the way it used to be.

http://www.teamusa.org/USA-Archery/...ent-Eligibility-for-International-Competitors


makes no sense, and shows why USA archery has no clue what they are doing. Interesting task force. Who was on that???? I guess Brady's argument was persuasive. 

Chris


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## midwayarcherywi (Sep 24, 2006)

Ok, but what about the yoga pants! Too funny. We had our state championship last weekend and no sane person could ID what are sweats, yoga pants, or any other iteration of black, pant like leggings. So if a woman calls tight fitting black pants, 'ski pants', who am I, or anyone else to say differently?


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## Demmer (Dec 1, 2012)

midwayarcherywi said:


> Ok, but what about the yoga pants! Too funny. We had our state championship last weekend and no sane person could ID what are sweats, yoga pants, or any other iteration of black, pant like leggings. So if a woman calls tight fitting black pants, 'ski pants', who am I, or anyone else to say differently?


I'm glad you addressed the most important issue first. Lol

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## Jim C (Oct 15, 2002)

midwayarcherywi said:


> Ok, but what about the yoga pants! Too funny. We had our state championship last weekend and no sane person could ID what are sweats, yoga pants, or any other iteration of black, pant like leggings. So if a woman calls tight fitting black pants, 'ski pants', who am I, or anyone else to say differently?


we had a girl from a new club wearing such things but since they had "pockets" I did not find a violation The only other girl wearing such things was wearing a skirt over them that was clearly in compliance. But in the past, some pushed the rules.

I think threatening to eliminate the BB divisions for JOAD is counterproductive. we are trying to grow BB in Ohio: our JOAD championship this last weekend had Two real barebow shooters and a couple others (we put the Genesis and the BB in the same division for now) shooting the NASP bow.


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## midwayarcherywi (Sep 24, 2006)

Jim C said:


> we had a girl from a new club wearing such things but since they had "pockets" I did not find a violation The only other girl wearing such things was wearing a skirt over them that was clearly in compliance. But in the past, some pushed the rules.
> 
> I think threatening to eliminate the BB divisions for JOAD is counterproductive. we are trying to grow BB in Ohio: our JOAD championship this last weekend had Two real barebow shooters and a couple others (we put the Genesis and the BB in the same division for now) shooting the NASP bow.


We are in the same situation with Barebow. Give us time to grow it. It is growing in IL and I believe in other parts of the country as well.

BTW Jim, I'm sure you can just about imagine the scenarios where some girl, or woman would become indignant because you found her 'black pants' not in compliance. Maybe we should make the standard if you can see someones business, it is not allowed. I shiver to think of the blow-back one would get if you approached an individual and said I can see your............


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## Demmer (Dec 1, 2012)

Yeah, they just opened it up to the youngins last year, and numbers are higher for indoors this year already. It's always takes a few years to see a trend. I do hope they understand that. That and I hope they get enough static back from people that they won't touch it. 

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## chrstphr (Nov 23, 2005)

Maybe they will have a task force look into it.


Chris


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## Demmer (Dec 1, 2012)

With 188 participants last year and 255 signed up so far this year for indoor nationals, they should see things are actually working. 

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## sprinke (Jul 9, 2015)

At our state indoor championships I saw JOADs in tears over the yoga pants business after being told they couldn't compete unless they put some shorts on over their pants. Really, these are the important things?


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## Arsi (May 14, 2011)

sprinke said:


> At our state indoor championships I saw JOADs in tears over the yoga pants business after being told they couldn't compete unless they put some shorts on over their pants. Really, these are the important things?


While it may seem trivial, sometimes you have to just read the rules and adhere to them. Can save a lot of headaches in the long run. Following the rules is on the athlete and enforcing them is on the judge. Otherwise you're going to end up spray painting a compound bow in the parking lot to be legal.


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## Jim C (Oct 15, 2002)

midwayarcherywi said:


> We are in the same situation with Barebow. Give us time to grow it. It is growing in IL and I believe in other parts of the country as well.
> 
> BTW Jim, I'm sure you can just about imagine the scenarios where some girl, or woman would become indignant because you found her 'black pants' not in compliance. Maybe we should make the standard if you can see someones business, it is not allowed. I shiver to think of the blow-back one would get if you approached an individual and said I can see your............


I call dress code issues the way I call arrows. If there is a possible legitimate way to benefit the archer I do. I was not the one who was trying to claim that if there is a slit in someone's shorts or skirts and if they put their hands at their sides in the right place they could touch skin-then the garment was too short.


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## Jim C (Oct 15, 2002)

sprinke said:


> At our state indoor championships I saw JOADs in tears over the yoga pants business after being told they couldn't compete unless they put some shorts on over their pants. Really, these are the important things?


You can always go to a medical supply place and get some of those oversized shorts my Knee surgeon used to have us wear when they were doing X-rays or MRIs of the knee. They were plenty long and not jeans or camo-

National Judge Don Casteel used to have a large blue skirt he'd bring to tournaments-more than a couple guys wearing jeans got to "borrow" that skirt if they didn't change or if they came back the second day of a two day shoot in jeans


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## tkaap (Nov 30, 2009)

chrstphr said:


> Well, now USA archery has changed everything back to the way it used to be.
> 
> Chris


"Guests will not eligible to participate in the Elimination Round at JOAD Nationals"

I think this is still a change. We have a JOAD here who was on the wrong side of a passport last summer, and so wasn't awarded Grand National Champion. This summer, it sounds like they wouldn't let that kid even shoot the individual eliminations.

-T


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## beefstew27 (Mar 18, 2008)

Not sure how I feel about the "Premium seating"... just tell the level 2 soccer moms that they can't be in the archers area, and rent them a scope for $10/day.


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## Rylando (Jul 30, 2016)

The premium seating won't stop diddly squat. After having shot the texas shootout/trials in 2015 next to all the recurve cadets and the 2016 national outdoor on the 50m field between the compound kids and the recurve cubs, the parents will find a way to invade other archers space for the benefit of little johnny.


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## Jim C (Oct 15, 2002)

Hope there are staff members assigned to police the seating. I know as having been the COJ on the short field in 2015, I had more than enough things to keep track of rather than policing who was sitting where.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

It's unconscionable that they decided to allow parents onto the field of play.


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## J Wesbrock (Jul 6, 2016)

midwayarcherywi said:


> BTW Jim, I'm sure you can just about imagine the scenarios where some girl, or woman would become indignant because you found her 'black pants' not in compliance. Maybe we should make the standard if you can see someones business, it is not allowed. I shiver to think of the blow-back one would get if you approached an individual and said I can see your............


Put Jonas in charge of dress code enforcement. What could possibly go wrong?


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## Jay-El (Oct 16, 2012)

... I don't wanna end up in the broadhead range ... 

I think Demmer should be in charge of dress code. 


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Jay-El said:


> ... I don't wanna end up in the broadhead range ...
> 
> I think Demmer should be in charge of dress code.
> 
> ...


:zip:


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## Demmer (Dec 1, 2012)

Hmm... Idk if I wanna touch that one. Haha. 

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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

I saw we change back to all-whites and rob Demmer of all his powers.


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## Jim C (Oct 15, 2002)

limbwalker said:


> I saw we change back to all-whites and rob Demmer of all his powers.


Hmmmm


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## J Wesbrock (Jul 6, 2016)

Jay-El said:


> ... I don't wanna end up in the broadhead range ...
> 
> I think Demmer should be in charge of dress code.
> 
> ...


No, then they'd all be running around in comic book shirts, neon pink yoga pants and Crocs.


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## Jay-El (Oct 16, 2012)

Well we can look like Power Rangers or we can look like the Michelin man. 


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## Demmer (Dec 1, 2012)

Is it OK for men to wear yoga pants?

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## Jim C (Oct 15, 2002)

sure if they wear shorts or a skirt of sufficient length over them!


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## Rylando (Jul 30, 2016)

This is why they changed this rule. Demmer was just learning about yoga pants... the world isn't ready for that yet.


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## iArch (Apr 17, 2015)

I don't know how to shoot a bow properly without yoga pants.


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## J Wesbrock (Jul 6, 2016)

Demmer said:


> Is it OK for men to wear yoga pants?
> 
> Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk


You really want to post that photo, don't you?


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## Demmer (Dec 1, 2012)

J Wesbrock said:


> You really want to post that photo, don't you?


Lol. I can't do that though. Haha

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## UtahIdahoHunter (Mar 27, 2008)

Ever heard the term "Smuggling Plums"? Demmer nobody wants to see that.


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## mbu (Oct 22, 2003)

Interesting changes in 2018 United States Archery Team selection procedures (most ages):
file:///C:/Documents%20and%20Settings/mike%20%20u/My%20Documents/Downloads/USAT%20Qualification%20Procedures%2011717%20(5).pdf

Example for Master USAT.

The Master USAT will be determined by:
1. U.S. NATIONAL TARGET CHAMPIONSHIPS *MANDATORY EVENT*
a. U.S. National	Target Championships *participation is a requirement to receive a Master USAT Ranking.*
b. Although participation is required, the *use of the event placement points for the U.S. National Target Championships is not required in the athlete’s USAT ranking.*


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## WDWILHELM (Jul 2, 2009)

What I found most concerning in the selection procedures:

"Membership and Eligibility Guidelines

USAT Ranking and being named to USAT is only provided for USA Archery (USAA) members in good standing who have a
valid U.S. passport. If an athlete does not have a valid U.S. passport they must have the written permission of the Member
Association, if any, of the country from which he/she has a valid passport."

I'm glad that I renewed my U.S. passport last year. This requirement won't keep me off the ranking system, but I wonder how may JOAD archers it will affect. I hope USAA changes this rule before it becomes a problem for a U.S Citizen that has not yet acquired a valid U.S. passport.

Wyndell.


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## Rylando (Jul 30, 2016)

What is the benefit to allowing international archers to compete in the elimination rounds at our national event? I can only see it causing problems. Surely it isn't about the cash? 

Genuinely curious here.


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## TomG (Dec 4, 2002)

This rule change only applies to non-citizen that are living in the US and are member of USA Archery, like myself. 

USA archery has decided to apply the World Archery rule for international tournaments, outside of the Olympics, that stipulates that a non citizen can compete for a country if he has lived in that country for a year and has prior written authorization from his country of citizenship. 

This doesn't apply to visiting international archers. Only to archers that could be selected to a World Archery event, like a world championship.


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