# IBO finds 21 range finders today!!!!



## nickel shooter5

I cam off the course today and range officials were talking about taking 21Goose range finders today and dqing people .... Anyone here about this


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## Daniel Boone

nickel shooter5 said:


> I cam off the course today and range officials were talking about taking 21Goose range finders today and dqing people .... Anyone here about this


This should be interested. Whats a goose range finder?

DB


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## Kighty7

I shot all 40 on Friday and did not hear anything. Was a great time with a very challenging set up.


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## nickel shooter5

Sorry my phone added Goose


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## goosemesh01

DQed a guy on I J K L for ranging targets and telling them they set targets over max.


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## rhyno_071

Me too and I agree. Never heard anything.


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## Outback Man

They asked us today on the way info ranges IJKL if anyone had any as we got off the trailer...it was about 1PM and the guy said they had 29 already...Easy to do...I almost took mine after shooting the defense course, but remembered to put it in the car at the last minute.


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## Daniel Boone

Thats a good thing. They dont need to be carried on the ranges.
DB


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## edgerat

goosemesh01 said:


> DQed a guy on I J K L for ranging targets and telling them they set targets over max.


hahahahah what a tool.


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## finger tripper

i heard about 26 at days end, 1 DQ for sure. saw a couple get handed over on IJK&L.


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## MOvenatic

Seems a lot more people are taking them with them on the range. A lot are checking after they shoot, but when it comes to sanctioned shoots, it's best to leave them behind.


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## cory2011

And this is exactly what happened. The range officials were out ranging targets cuz there was com


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## cory2011

This is what happened. The range officials ( non IBO) were walking the course ranging targets cuz they were getting complaints on targets over max. They walked up to a target the guy asked what they were doing and they told him. He says well there are some targets well over max by 4-5 yards. They reply how do you no that ? He replys I ranged them after I shot. They reply you mean you have a rangefinder on the course ? His reply yes I do. They reply are you serious ? Yes I am. I ranged 1 target after the group shot on my own not the group cuz I no it was well over the max. They reply we have to DQ YOU for having the rangfinder on the course. His reply was that's fine I was in the wrong I guess. But my question is how many of those rangefinders found today were on the course yesterday? Should they be DQ TO?


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## J Whittington

i totally agree, the guy should not be ranging the targets because it is agains the rules...and DQed 
HOWEVER, imho, THE IBO is also at fault. there should not have been targers over the max by 4-5 YARDS.


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## HardcoreArchery

I'm glad to see that they are on the ball as far as getting the rangefinders off the course. Now if only they could get on the same page for all the national events. I think if there is a max it should be just that a max no +3 yds because that only leaves the door open for them to be set 5-6 over which is rediculous.


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## kw1

There aren't ant 4 or 5 over and the rule book clearly states no range finders on the course.


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## HardcoreArchery

3. Targets shall be set at unmarked distances. The approximate* maximum distance for each stake shall be as follows: a. Blue Stake: 50 yards (45.72 meters) b. Green Stake: 45 yards (41.15 meters) c. Red Stake: 40 yards (36.70 meters) d. Yellow Stake: 35 yards (32 meters) e. Orange Stake: 30 yards (27.43 meters) f. White Stake: 25 yards (22.86 meters) * Approximate distances have been added to allow the use of a laser range finder and to allow for inherent variations in their accuracy. Approximate distances are NOT intended to be an excuse to stretch target maximum distances


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## Kighty7

This is my first year for mbr and I shot I J K L . I loved the course set up with the exception of the 10 targets where we shot from the field into the woods. It was really hard to see some of the targets. It was a huge 
challenge and something I was not expecting. Everyone had to shoot it so no complaint here.


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## HardcoreArchery

That's another thing I don't get is setting targets where it is so dark you can barely see them. What does that prove??? How are you supposed to hit something you cant see? I just dont see the point in this.


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## Kighty7

Maybe when they set them, they were easier to see. I know if I were hunting, I never would have shot at hardly any of them. Took a 70 on I. Due to a miss and 3 fives. Was hard to swallow after shooting L 3 down.


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## mocheese

It was a great set, I shot IJKL also, didn't shoot anything for over max, not sayin none were but then again I didn't have a rangefinder on me either!!


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## carlosii

HardcoreArchery said:


> Now if only they could get on the same page for all the national events. I think if there is a max it should be just that a max no +3 yds because that only leaves the door open for them to be set 5-6 over which is rediculous.


ASA uses the same setup team for every shoot. ibo allows local club members to set the targets and run the show, for the most part. that's why the ASA ranges are generally more consistent.


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## MR get greedy

The rules say nothing about having them in your bag. It says they are prohibited. It's the same thing as saying smoking is prohibited in the movie theater but it's ok to have your cigs and lighter in your pocket. They need to change the wording in the rules. To many people getting up in roars about this. There are some cheaters out there I just hate how it seems there ruining it for everyone. This is all you read about anymore and it sad.


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## Daniel Boone

MR get greedy said:


> The rules say nothing about having them in your bag. It says they are prohibited. It's the same thing as saying smoking is prohibited in the movie theater but it's ok to have your cigs and lighter in your pocket. They need to change the wording in the rules. To many people getting up in roars about this. There are some cheaters out there I just hate how it seems there ruining it for everyone. This is all you read about anymore and it sad.


Maybe this is all you look for here. Doubt you comment on this thread. Can show allot more good comments.

http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=1797777


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## kw1

carlosii said:


> ASA uses the same setup team for every shoot. ibo allows local club members to set the targets and run the show, for the most part. that's why the ASA ranges are generally more consistent.


Well the IBO directors are there welll before the shoot, and help set up so there are some of the same people at every shoot.


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## hoosierredneck

why don't they change mbo to 55 yd max, every ibo shoot so far this year has had over the max yd targets.don;t tell me 50 max then stick in 54 yd targets.they use 2 range finders at each target so they know what there doing.i think that B.S.


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## f4yg

Max yardage should be just that. With today's rangefinders there is no reason for needing 3 yard allowances..


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## MR get greedy

Your right I don't comment much. I have a life outside this site. What I'm saying is there are some great helpful threads on this site that go dead about a day later, but these last for weeks.


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## Daniel Boone

MR get greedy said:


> Your right I don't comment much. I have a life outside this site. What I'm saying is there are some great helpful threads on this site that go dead about a day later, but these last for weeks.


 Understand what your saying but often there controversal and it is a disscussion forum. Lots of good threads here for anyone who wants to chat or get info. Life is good, great we all got choices how we live it!
DB


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## Hoosier bowman

goosemesh01 said:


> DQed a guy on I J K L for ranging targets and telling them they set targets over max.


I heard about that.....


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## Garceau

In reality having one in your chair shouldnt be all that big an issue - if the people you were with policed each other, groups were busted etc....nobody would pull it out.

Some come off the practice bags, and have it in their chairs and really dont think twice about it.

I dont see having one on the range that big an issue......however since they allow groups of friends to shoot together I suppose I could see them using it and not reporting it to each other. Some of the layouts would allow them getting away with that out of sight of the next group.

Use it = busted....
Have it in chair = eh, Im on the fence.


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## hunteraaron

First of all yardages are approximates.If you can judge yardage you would know thats farther than max.With bows shooting 310 fps + 2 yards makes little difference.Second setting targets in the shadows isnt wrong,it gives the archer that knows the kill placement a edge.If all you do all year is walk up,look at the target thru your binos and shoot thats on you.What will you do if your binos arent there.Bottom line everyone has to shoot the same targets.The guy orgirl that can make the shot wins.


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## Garceau

Even at 310.... at 50 yds....two yards makes a big difference.

I will run it through OT2 on my set up; of course it will vary a slight amount because of peep to pin, and peep to arrow differences but you will see the numbers it spits out.

2.43 inches difference - should still catch the bottom of the ten (if you can hold that tight a group at 50....I cant)


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## kw1

hoosierredneck said:


> why don't they change mbo to 55 yd max, every ibo shoot so far this year has had over the max yd targets.don;t tell me 50 max then stick in 54 yd targets.they use 2 range finders at each target so they know what there doing.i think that B.S.


It is approximate due to range finders not being exact and yes 50 is max.


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## Outback Man

OK...after things are done today I'd like to know if anyone has specific targets that they think were 3-5 yards over max...we didn't think there was...Sure, there might have been a bunch that were close and a 51-52 here and there on the courses we shot, but not 54-55. Heck, there was an IBO or Cardinal member who walked course K or L (can't remember) ranging them due to complaints. When he came thru we talked to him, and although he couldn't give us a yardage on the one we knew was out there a poke he confirmed it was "legal."


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## outbackarcher

I don't see where it matters. Shoot it for what you think it is. Everyone has to shoot the same targets. I shot several over 50...did I set my sight to 50 be cause that was max...nope. I shot it for what I thought it was.

I guess to stay with the reason for the thread I don't have a problem with guys having them in their chair. Just don't get them out.


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## BROX

Wrong to take a rangefinder YES!But i know i shot acouple of targets for max yardage and hit low i also know of at leat one on the FHC that was 4-5 yrds over max but those where from being shot for max and hitting low or being shot for over max and hitting an 11


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## maddiemoo

just one time I wish there would be one national tournament that the middle school kids on here would not have any drama to talk about. Why don't we congratulate the people instead of *****ing about dumb stuff.


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## 1ryanman

I was there and shot ijkl and shot bad but if there was no targets over from the mbo (blue) peg then this post would be non existent


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## HardcoreArchery

hunteraaron said:


> First of all yardages are approximates.If you can judge yardage you would know thats farther than max.With bows shooting 310 fps + 2 yards makes little difference.Second setting targets in the shadows isnt wrong,it gives the archer that knows the kill placement a edge.If all you do all year is walk up,look at the target thru your binos and shoot thats on you.What will you do if your binos arent there.Bottom line everyone has to shoot the same targets.The guy orgirl that can make the shot wins.


So if you shoot a large deer for 50 and he is 52 you are telling me you are going to hang in the 10? I understand everyone has to shoot them but max should be max. And I'm not referring to +2 its the +4-5. And secondly with the dark targets even if you know where it us how does that help when you can't see it?


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## Bowtech n ROSS

I know for a fact from the spm shooting a 52 yard target for 50 will not stay a ten. With that being said everyone has to shoot the same targets. We had alot of targets over max and none of us are complaining.


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## kw1

So Bronx and hardcore are you going to volunteer to help set up and work the shoot next year. I hope you do and you will see the amount of work that goes into this. This is the first time I was on the other side of the table( not shooting) working the tent on I k j L let me tell you you wouldn't believe what all goes on.


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## Tmaziarz

Yes, They did pull a lot of range finder off the course from people shooting. This is a fact and did see it with my own eyes.


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## HardcoreArchery

kw1 said:


> So Bronx and hardcore are you going to volunteer to help set up and work the shoot next year. I hope you do and you will see the amount of work that goes into this. This is the first time I was on the other side of the table( not shooting) working the tent on I k j L let me tell you you wouldn't believe what all goes on.


I also do a ton of volunteering here in CT and I know the work that goes in that being said it is no excuse to break the rules and set targets long. I'm not taking anything away from any of you guys that put the work in and this is more on the IBO they should be there looking at every Target from every stake and make sure they are legal. The IBO won't hesitate to act if someone us breaking the rules on the shooting side (which they should) now they have to be accountable for breaking the rules in their end.


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## Babyk

Heard there was 40 total that were found.....


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## mocheese

If they did take that many rangefinders, I say good for them. I make sure the rangefinder is in my vehicle when I hit the course.


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## Joseph McCluske

hoosierredneck said:


> why don't they change mbo to 55 yd max, every ibo shoot so far this year has had over the max yd targets.don;t tell me 50 max then stick in 54 yd targets.they use 2 range finders at each target so they know what there doing.i think that B.S.


 I agree with you 100%


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## z3shooter

whats the issue here? ranger finders on the course or ibo setting targets over the max?


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## SWAG

mocheese said:


> If they did take that many rangefinders, I say good for them. I make sure the rangefinder is in my vehicle when I hit the course.


They didnt TAKE anything. They said they had 29 of them when we arrived. They asked you when you got off the shuttle if you had a range finder to leave it with them. Just like the rest of the IBO rules, it was left to the honor system. All you had to do was keep your mouth shut if you didnt want them to take it. They never checked anyone that I saw to see if they had one. I have never carried a finder during a tournament because it is against the rules. I have no problem with people carrying them as long as they dont use them. I have many of times had to walk back to the truck just to put my rangefinder up because I forgot I even had it. It happens. The IBO is not doing anything proactive to stop any kind of cheating. You could go to an IBO tournament and never shoot a target and win it. It would be very easy to do.


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## BROX

kw1 said:


> So Bronx and hardcore are you going to volunteer to help set up and work the shoot next year. I hope you do and you will see the amount of work that goes into this. This is the first time I was on the other side of the table( not shooting) working the tent on I k j L let me tell you you wouldn't believe what all goes on.


I have never set a course but I know several people that have done it for yrs and one club owner that set targets just him and his wife I conteniously give all those people props and they check every shot from every stake .Did I shoot bad because of targets being set beyond the max 2 yds no but if I did it was my own dump fault I'm just saying alittle more attention should have been paid to it cause there are people that are going to think that oh it couldn't be set over max and are going to shoot it for the max and possible get a 8 or 5 because of it


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## jimb

I don't really care if someone has a rangefinder in a chair as long as it stays there. I do feel that it is cheating to range a target after shooting. It gives you an unfair advantage to correct your yardage that someone without a rangefinder can't do. Probably better of if everyone left them in the car.


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## ohiobullseye

No one should have a range finder on them on the course, I think it's about time IBO did somthing about people not following the rules. They warned you before they drove you to the course that they will collect and return range finders if you have it on you. I liked to see the range officials walking the courses while we were shooting. This is there job to patrol and make sure everyone is shooting by the rules, we the shooters shouldn't have to be looking for cheaters. The archers who got caught with range finders I hope will help detour other archers from trying to cheat.


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## peregrine82

I will direct my comments to the dark target issue. Last year at the worlds we had a target that no one in our group could see. We all shot by braille and managed to hit it. A range official came by and we asked about the target. His comment was that no one all day had been able to see it so it was fair to everyone. 

Not everyone's visual acuity is the same. As we age our ability to gather light decreases and it makes it even worse for older archers. 3D targets should be set so that every archer in the field has the ability to see and shoot the target fairly. This is an archery contest based on our ability to judge yardage and make the shot, not a visual acuity contest. In my opinion there is no reason to set a black target in a black hole and make the shooter stand in brilliant sunshine.


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## hoosierredneck

Outback Man said:


> OK...after things are done today I'd like to know if anyone has specific targets that they think were 3-5 yards over max...we didn't think there was...Sure, there might have been a bunch that were close and a 51-52 here and there on the courses we shot, but not 54-55. Heck, there was an IBO or Cardinal member who walked course K or L (can't remember) ranging them due to complaints. When he came thru we talked to him, and although he couldn't give us a yardage on the one we knew was out there a poke he confirmed it was "legal."


i believe the ibex, wolf, brown bear, deer in creek, were all over 50 yds.if they need some acurrate range finders why dont the ibo use some of or entry money and buy some for these shoots.all they do is talk about rules for this,rules for that, how about them breaking there own for max yds.


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## HardcoreArchery

peregrine82 said:


> I will direct my comments to the dark target issue. Last year at the worlds we had a target that no one in our group could see. We all shot by braille and managed to hit it. A range official came by and we asked about the target. His comment was that no one all day had been able to see it so it was fair to everyone.
> 
> Not everyone's visual acuity is the same. As we age our ability to gather light decreases and it makes it even worse for older archers. 3D targets should be set so that every archer in the field has the ability to see and shoot the target fairly. This is an archery contest based on our ability to judge yardage and make the shot, not a visual acuity contest. In my opinion there is no reason to set a black target in a black hole and make the shooter stand in brilliant sunshine.


My point exactly plus there are some targets that depending in the time if the day are easier or harder to see, how is that an even playing field. I really don't know what they are trying to prove if they want to have a vision contest we can schedule one with an eye Dr. The attendance has been getting lower and lower every year and I blame it all on the IBO they make it easy to cheat, they don't follow their own rules, and all they care about is the money and not about promoting the sport. It's sad.


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## HardcoreArchery

hoosierredneck said:


> i believe the ibex, wolf, brown bear, deer in creek, were all over 50 yds.if they need some acurrate range finders why dont the ibo use some of or entry money and buy some for these shoots.all they do is talk about rules for this,rules for that, how about them breaking there own for max yds.


I agree 100% rules need to be followed weather it is by the shooters or the IBO rules are rules!


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## z3shooter

i dont think having a range finder in your chair is cheating hell do you think there were only 21 range finders on the courses get real and after a shoot if the main topic is targets over the max to me thats ibo creating it's own drama


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## rausch193

i shoot YH and i can say there were some targets over our max, and if your bow shoots over 300fps thats not a really big deal but we can only shoot 260fps and i like to say closer to 250 to be on the safe side, so if i shoot a target for 30 which is my max and it is 33 my arrow will drop about 6 inches, but still a great shoot and shot well, got my first 1st place at an ibo and had lots fun and thats all that matters


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## 1ryanman

HardcoreArchery,i dont know how many was over but i give it a good guess of about 4 from blue peg i say the white goat on i &k course was over the wolf on L course was over and would definately would say brown bear on J was over but just my 2 cents cause i could not get them with my 50 yd mark


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## HardcoreArchery

rausch193 said:


> i shoot YH and i can say there were some targets over our max, and if your bow shoots over 300fps thats not a really big deal but we can only shoot 260fps and i like to say closer to 250 to be on the safe side, so if i shoot a target for 30 which is my max and it is 33 my arrow will drop about 6 inches, but still a great shoot and shot well, got my first 1st place at an ibo and had lots fun and thats all that matters


Congrats!!!!!!


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## 1ryanman

I WAS JUST THINKING IF THE LAST 2 TRIPLE CROWN SHOOTS WAS THIS HARD AND TARGETS BEING PUT OVER THERE MAX DISTANCE I JUST WONDER WHAT THE WORLD CHAMPIONSHIPS WILL BE LIKE, I BETTER GET OF THIS COMPUTER AND GO OUTSIDE AND SHOOT MORE INSTEAD OF TALKING ABOUT IT:wink:


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## ACE430

When they set up the course just stay 2 or 3 yards under the max. There is no need to keep going over the max in any of the classes.


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## Daniel Boone

ACE430 said:


> When they set up the course just stay 2 or 3 yards under the max. There is no need to keep going over the max in any of the classes.


I totally agree. Why ever try and go over the max distance? 
DB


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## treeman65

There is not a max for ibo. It is approximate so with that being said nothing was over max


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## Hittingguru

HardcoreArchery said:


> My point exactly plus there are some targets that depending in the time if the day are easier or harder to see, how is that an even playing field. I really don't know what they are trying to prove if they want to have a vision contest we can schedule one with an eye Dr. The attendance has been getting lower and lower every year and I blame it all on the IBO they make it easy to cheat, they don't follow their own rules, and all they care about is the money and not about promoting the sport. It's sad.


This happened the last 2 years at Worlds-- it is a direct violation of rule II-A-4 which reads :

"_4. *Targets should be set so they are distinguishable *with their vital areas (8 ring)
unobstructed_"

And--it is not safe.


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## HardcoreArchery

treeman65 said:


> There is not a max for ibo. It is approximate so with that being said nothing was over max


WRONG!!!!

This is right from the IBO website. 

Approximate distances have been added to allow the use of a laser range finder and to allow for inherent variations in their accuracy. Approximate distances are NOT intended to be an excuse to stretch target maximum distances.


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## z3shooter

hey KW1 were you one of the range offcials? noticed you are from mt vernom


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## cenochs

Attendance looks like 1216 I added up all the shooters in each class listed on the IBO website!! Some classes had 1 and 2 shooters!! You would think with a new location and no shoot times attendance would be allot higher!! I don't think having shoot times like ASA and random groups would effect attendance at all!!


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## Outback Man

hoosierredneck said:


> i believe the ibex, wolf, brown bear, deer in creek, were all over 50 yds.if they need some acurrate range finders why dont the ibo use some of or entry money and buy some for these shoots.all they do is talk about rules for this,rules for that, how about them breaking there own for max yds.


The wolf was the one I was referring to when they range official came out and ranged it and said it was "legal." The brown bear was a poke, but two guys in our group pinwheeled it shooting either 51 or 52 yds. I can't specifically remember the ibex or deer in the creek. My buddy and I shot K/L w/two strangers and we shot I/J w/3 strangers, and some of those dudes were pretty good and we all thought the targets where out there, but no one ever said they were 4-5 yds. over from the blues. The group behind us though (HC???) were definately complainging about their stakes.


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## HardcoreArchery

cenochs said:


> Attendance looks like 1216 I added up all the shooters in each class listed on the IBO website!! Some classes had 1 and 2 shooters!! You would think with a new location and no shoot times attendance would be allot higher!! I don't think having shoot times like ASA and random groups would effect attendance at all!!


I firmly belive the attendance is declining because the IBO puts nothing into it! People cheating that they do nothing about, misorginization, giving awards at the next event, and laziness. The IBO has nobody to blame but themselves you can only take peoples money for so long without giving anything back before they get fed up. And I think we all know who is behind this getting their pockets fat!


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## 1ryanman

z3shooter said:


> hey kw1 were you one of the range offcials? Noticed you are from mt vernom


i would also like to know if you was one of the range offficals


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## treeman65

Cry me a river. Seems like 3d has turned into a whine fest. It doesn't matter if it was 54 yds and younshotnit for approx max then you missed judge it


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## HardcoreArchery

treeman65 said:


> Cry me a river. Seems like 3d has turned into a whine fest. It doesn't matter if it was 54 yds and younshotnit for approx max then you missed judge it


You miss the point why say 50 is max when its not??? If you step up to a Target and judge it for over 50 but then you say to yourself it can't be because 50 is MAX so you put 51 on it to be safe and it turns out to be 54 now what you end up with an 8 because someone didn't follow the rules? How is that fair? If you make a max and put it in the rules then that's exactly the way it should be. There is no room for close enough it should be perfect! The bottom line is if the IBO got off their lazy asses and actually did something this would not happen, they leave it up to the host club for the triple crown and that's where the problems occur!


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## unks24

Shoot em for what they are. Stop the whining. It was an awesome shoot. The guys who shot them for what they were are not whining. IBO awesome job great shoot!!!


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## HardcoreArchery

unks24 said:


> Shoot em for what they are. Stop the whining. It was an awesome shoot. The guys who shot them for what they were are not whining. IBO awesome job great shoot!!!


It's not whining its just stating that they should be held to what is stated. That is exactly why this country is in the situation we are in right now because everyone just let's things go and doesn't hold anyone accountable when something is wrong. Let me ask you what would happen if you just decided to stand a foot off the stake to shoot would that be ok? Well you would be close enough right? No, someone would surely call you on it and you would probably loose that Target well why should the IBO be allowed to get away with breaking rules?


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## Kighty7

I still think it was a great shoot. I,J,K,L were a blast to shoot. I was tough with the dark targets and wind on Friday but it was still fun. Great job Cardinal Shooting Center.


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## SWAG

I thought they had a great range set up. I also think some targets were over a so called 50 yard max that is in the rules but guess everyone had to shoot them. But the thing that makes me the most pi$$ed off is I feel that the true winner of the overall in MBO got 2nd. Yes, I think there was some CHEATING in MBO this year at first two legs.


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## J Whittington

i have yet to see different range finders that varied 4-5 yds! dont kid your self, those targers were intentionally set well over the max,




HardcoreArchery said:


> 3. Targets shall be set at unmarked distances. The approximate* maximum distance for each stake shall be as follows: a. Blue Stake: 50 yards (45.72 meters) b. Green Stake: 45 yards (41.15 meters) c. Red Stake: 40 yards (36.70 meters) d. Yellow Stake: 35 yards (32 meters) e. Orange Stake: 30 yards (27.43 meters) f. White Stake: 25 yards (22.86 meters) * Approximate distances have been added to allow the use of a laser range finder and to allow for inherent variations in their accuracy. Approximate distances are NOT intended to be an excuse to stretch target maximum distances


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## J Whittington

unless you have hard concrete proof, its not wise to accuse people of cheating on an international archery forum.... if you have proof spill the beans....if not.... well you get the point



SWAG said:


> I thought they had a great range set up. I also think some targets were over a so called 50 yard max that is in the rules but guess everyone had to shoot them. But the thing that makes me the most pi$$ed off is I feel that the true winner of the overall in MBO got 2nd. Yes, I think there was some CHEATING in MBO this year at first two legs.


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## foamslayer20

SWAG said:


> I thought they had a great range set up. I also think some targets were over a so called 50 yard max that is in the rules but guess everyone had to shoot them. But the thing that makes me the most pi$$ed off is I feel that the true winner of the overall in MBO got 2nd. Yes, I think there was some CHEATING in MBO this year at first two legs.


Better watch accusing people without proof. Also why don't you tell us who you really are? No need to hide behind a keyboard if you have proof right????


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## Supermag1

treeman65 said:


> Cry me a river. Seems like 3d has turned into a whine fest. It doesn't matter if it was 54 yds and younshotnit for approx max then you missed judge it


Yep and yet people wonder why archery can never get any big non-archery sponsors.


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## foamslayer20

unks24 said:


> Shoot em for what they are. Stop the whining. It was an awesome shoot. The guys who shot them for what they were are not whining. IBO awesome job great shoot!!!


Very well put.


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## unks24

Thanks Dave, when I got home I told my wife about one target being 4 yards too far after stepping it off and she asked did I shoot it for that? I replied no and she said it was my own fault for not doing so that I should know this. She is correct. I feel on the final leg a few should be aet up this way it seperates the men from the boys. I witnessed a PSE drop into an 8 when the target as beyond the limit ywt a mathews hit the x ring because it was shot for the correct distance. Things like this are needed to sort out the best of the beat. If you want to shoot known max yardage then shoot spots they never change. Come on guys give the thanks to all the hard work that took place to make this happen. To all behind the scenes you guys did an outstanding job thank you for an awesome shoot.


----------



## carlosii

peregrine82 said:


> I will direct my comments to the dark target issue. Last year at the worlds we had a target that no one in our group could see. We all shot by braille and managed to hit it. A range official came by and we asked about the target. His comment was that no one all day had been able to see it so it was fair to everyone.
> 
> Not everyone's visual acuity is the same. As we age our ability to gather light decreases and it makes it even worse for older archers. 3D targets should be set so that every archer in the field has the ability to see and shoot the target fairly. This is an archery contest based on our ability to judge yardage and make the shot, not a visual acuity contest. In my opinion there is no reason to set a black target in a black hole and make the shooter stand in brilliant sunshine.


well stated...the sims range at london at times was unshootable...imho.


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## SWAG

foamslayer20 said:


> Better watch accusing people without proof. Also why don't you tell us who you really are? No need to hide behind a keyboard if you have proof right????


I never said I had proof. There are many people out there that feel that it is a shady situation. I have the right to express my opinion.


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## hoosierredneck

i don't want more rules,but one i would like to see is range finders allowed ,but ban all binos.then they can set targets where ever they want and nobody can see them.


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## treeman65

unks24 said:


> Thanks Dave, when I got home I told my wife about one target being 4 yards too far after stepping it off and she asked did I shoot it for that? I replied no and she said it was my own fault for not doing so that I should know this. She is correct. I feel on the final leg a few should be aet up this way it seperates the men from the boys. I witnessed a PSE drop into an 8 when the target as beyond the limit ywt a mathews hit the x ring because it was shot for the correct distance. Things like this are needed to sort out the best of the beat. If you want to shoot known max yardage then shoot spots they never change. Come on guys give the thanks to all the hard work that took place to make this happen. To all behind the scenes you guys did an outstanding job thank you for an awesome shoot.


very well said miss judging a target is just that no matter what the distance is.These post that are whinning just need to b lamme somebody for their screw ups. I bet they miss a big buck they blame it on the deer cause it was not under max.


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## Daniel Boone

unks24 said:


> Thanks Dave, when I got home I told my wife about one target being 4 yards too far after stepping it off and she asked did I shoot it for that? I replied no and she said it was my own fault for not doing so that I should know this. She is correct. I feel on the final leg a few should be aet up this way it seperates the men from the boys. I witnessed a PSE drop into an 8 when the target as beyond the limit ywt a mathews hit the x ring because it was shot for the correct distance. Things like this are needed to sort out the best of the beat. If you want to shoot known max yardage then shoot spots they never change. Come on guys give the thanks to all the hard work that took place to make this happen. To all behind the scenes you guys did an outstanding job thank you for an awesome shoot.


Got to ask would 7yrds over be OK? Why even have rules if both ranges and archers dont have to follow the rules? I can make a shoot tough with out going over the max distance. 
DB


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## unks24

The bottom line is every sport has their "out of ordinary challenges" a bad spot in football a fair ball called foul in baseball they are everywhere. Lets just thank everyone that made it all possible. Thanks everyone for your time hard work and dedication to the sport keep doing things the way you are there os only a few that are *****ing. IBO please consider this site for the world championship in the future. I just cant say enough good about this shoot. I came un prepared for the long distances and I think this is the real problem with everyone else. Guys get over it and change how you practice it is not the fault of the IBO that we were all caught off guard. LOL....... my hats off to the IBO member #77456 gives all of you a pat on the back!!!!


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## unks24

7 yards over would be tough to swallow. Do the police pull everyone over for going 5mph over the speed limit. Peer shooters such as yourself should know distances this close. I hope Chad Durfey is reading thos he is a state trooper and I am sure he doesnt bust everyone for going over the speed limit, and he is not on here whining about target #3 on course A being 39 yards instead of 35 I would bet he x ringed it being 4 yards over. Why???? Because he is that good lets all quit whining and practice that long shot. It is what it is guys!!!! Good luck to all at the worlds, I didnt qualify and it is "MY" own fault not the IBO.


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## hoosierredneck

i'm done with this post,and i'm not whining.i just find it hard to believe people are ok with rules on max yds being broke and every body don't really care.so why even have them.


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## treeman65

hoosierredneck said:


> i'm done with this post,and i'm not whining.i just find it hard to believe people are ok with rules on max yds being broke and every body don't really care.so why even have them.


take up ping pong oh you would still whine there


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## Daniel Boone

treeman65 said:


> take up ping pong oh you would still whine there


Treeman65 thinks rules are made to be broken. It Ok with him.
DB


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## Daniel Boone

unks24 said:


> 7 yards over would be tough to swallow. Do the police pull everyone over for going 5mph over the speed limit. Peer shooters such as yourself should know distances this close. I hope Chad Durfey is reading thos he is a state trooper and I am sure he doesnt bust everyone for going over the speed limit, and he is not on here whining about target #3 on course A being 39 yards instead of 35 I would bet he x ringed it being 4 yards over. Why???? Because he is that good lets all quit whining and practice that long shot. It is what it is guys!!!! Good luck to all at the worlds, I didnt qualify and it is "MY" own fault not the IBO.


If your doing a tournament. Everyone wants the rules followed. I have no promblem following the rules.

Set the rules and lets all play by the rules. 
DB


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## southpaw3d

Swag.......who are you? I would like to know who is calling me a cheater. You say there are many here that believe this, well a good friend of mine put it the best......... he said," if no one is talking about you, you must not be shooting very well." But when you shoot good, people are going to talk.


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## HardcoreArchery

Can someone answer this one simple question why do we have to follow the rules as shooter but yet the IBO doesn't? Why even have them in place


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## treeman65

Daniel Boone said:


> Treeman65 thinks rules are made to be broken. It Ok with him.
> DB


yeah and novice and open c are the only classes you thionk should move up and pros can move back to amature you should know db cause yhou are a perfect example


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## treeman65

Daniel Boone said:


> Treeman65 thinks rules are made to be broken. It Ok with him.
> DB


no i dont think rules are to be broken but this is so petty even asa has set targets over the max before. It doesnt take a rocket scientist to know enough to shoot a target for what you judge it for


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## onemelo1

treeman65 said:


> very well said miss judging a target is just that no matter what the distance is.These post that are whinning just need to b lamme somebody for their screw ups. I bet they miss a big buck they blame it on the deer cause it was not under max.


LMAO.... Now thats funny


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## Daniel Boone

treeman65 said:


> yeah and novice and open c are the only classes you thionk should move up and pros can move back to amature you should know db cause yhou are a perfect example


Rules allow me me to move back after two years. I broke no rules in ASA. Do you even read the rules in archery?
Just make them up as you go? Gosh we should all be punished for moving into higher classes.
DB


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## jonell

Outback Man said:


> The wolf was the one I was referring to when they range official came out and ranged it and said it was "legal." The brown bear was a poke, but two guys in our group pinwheeled it shooting either 51 or 52 yds. I can't specifically remember the ibex or deer in the creek. My buddy and I shot K/L w/two strangers and we shot I/J w/3 strangers, and some of those dudes were pretty good and we all thought the targets where out there, but no one ever said they were 4-5 yds. over from the blues. The group behind us though (HC???) were definately complainging about their stakes.


A range official was on the phone with someone and said well their max yardage is 47 ... hello no one has a max yardage of 47.


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## 3dbowtechman

To all the people argueing over max yardages please dont shoot spm you will be very unhappy.No one at all complained about all the targets over max.


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## Barn Burner Strings

So what if I show up to the worlds and my arrow is 4.5 grains per pound and im shooting 330fps. I'm only .5 grains per pound shy of the rule. That is way less of an ordeal then having a target over max, but there are people that would cry to their mommies for days if i got away with it. The problem is that there is a max yardage, and it needs to be adhered to. If its 50 yards there should NEVER EVER be a target past 51 maybe 51.5. Rules are rules if I have to follow them so should everyone, including the IBO. 

As for the dark targets in shadows, I hate them. They should never be purposely set in a way that they will be less visible then any other target. If I went to an IBO event and found out that they set it that way on purpose I would never go back. This is a sport about shooting and judging ability, not who can guess the spot to aim at on the black shape in the dark. 

As for range finders in the chairs, i don't have a problem with it. But if your going to make it fair make sure that there is a clear rule that no range finder can be on the course at any time. Then DQ everyone that is found to have one that uses it or not. That will stop people from carrying them on the course real quick.

So in related news I guess the IBO is going to Rhineharts, Ive seen multiple IBO clubs sell all there McKenzies and purchase Rhineharts, coincidence i think not!


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## J Whittington

Swag. You have the right to express your opinion , but not slander someone's name by calling them a cheater without any Proof !


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## Kighty7

Maybe it is me but I shoot the UNI for fun and practice for the fall. I really enjoy the challenge of guessing yardage and trying to find the X. I am looking at moving up to MBO in the future but i am enjoying MBR. A few yards or targets set in shadows can be tough but I am not going to lose sleep over it. I am out to enjoy myself and compete with great people. Honestly, I am not to upset about the targets. It sure beat being at work. Even after shooting a 70 with a miss on I, I just kept shooting. Everyone has to shoot them. I am hoping to make world's next month for some more fun.


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## Deer Slayer I

shot I,J,K,L there was a white goat shot it late sat alot of holes in it not one above the 11 ring shot it for max hit 4" below the ten and there were a few more like that do i really enjoy shooting over max yards no do i enjoy shooting at targets from a field into the woods where its so dark all i see is an outline of the target no great place to shoot would just like to see them make a few changes


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## possumtracks421

Wonderful place to shoot, love the challenging and variety of shots.....I believe they did a great job in my opinion.....


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## USCG Barebow

DeerSlayer,
I concur with the Goat being 34/35. My whole group (MCU) shot it and we got 3 low 8's in the line and 2 low 5's.
Did not like it, but if that is the worst thing that happened this weekend I am good to go. Yes, I was one of the 5's.
I just for some reason get hung up on max ydg and cannot get my mind to tell me it is longer. I apparently need to see a professional therapist to get over it or live with the 5's.


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## 4CArena

That's what I'm talking about,The shoot was great and we had a blast.Thank you IBO and Ohio.


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## Fire Archer

possumtracks421 said:


> Wonderful place to shoot, love the challenging and variety of shots.....I believe they did a great job in my opinion.....


Yes it was, I wouldn't be surprised if they didn't try to host the World in next few years.


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## crow3k

i don't have a problem with targets being out past the max yardage if i know ahead of time. but if a target is supposed to max at 50 yards why on gods earth would i try and shoot it for 56 and possibly spine the target? i said to myself it looks like it's out past 50 but the max is 50 so i thought it was just me seeing it wrong. until i shot it, all 4 guys in my group shot low and all 4 shot it for 50. i agree with a few of you if the rules have to be obeyed on one side it should be obeyed on the other if not why have the rules?


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## flintcreek6412

As some have stated, who really cares if the targets are a little too far. Everyone has to shoot the same targets. 

As far a range finders, I used to take mine to the defense course and just left it in my quiver and never took it out again once on the course. Big deal. I never used it to any advantage on the course other than extra weight to lug around. I look at it like I look at my sight. I used a slider sight in HC but obviously never touched it once I entered the course. I guess if I was so inclined I could have but that would be cheating. There are opportunities to cheat all over if people are so inclined. Using a range finder would be the single most obvious one to be caught doing so I really don't see it as a big deal to possess one. 

Pencil whipping, calling arrows in that are clearly out, counting steps of archers in the group ahead of you, and stepping off targets and telling your buddies that shoot the next day the range are a much bigger deal than carrying a range finder that isn't even used on the course.

If people want to get all wound up about rules, lets see the 2 minute rule enforced. The shooter back up is what causes more problems and lack of return shooters than anything else. Do those of you whining about a few extra yards on a target really want that one enforced? I doubt it. Remember, the 2 min starts at the shot of the person ahead of you.


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## Pope & Young 24

I didn't shoot the MBO this year but did last year in Nelsonville. I always have my rangefinder in my quiver for ranging targets after round robin shoots for my local club, which is perfectly legal. I forgot to take it out last year and a guy in our group saw the strap hanging out of my hip quiver and asked me about it. I had honestly forgot about it and didn't use it that day at all. I just took it out and let another guy in our group carry it in his stool pocket until we were done, then he gave it back to me. So I can see how people can accidentally carry them on course with them, but I don't understand using them when it's clearly stated in the rules that you can't.


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## Daniel Boone

flintcreek6412 said:


> As some have stated, who really cares if the targets are a little too far. Everyone has to shoot the same targets.
> 
> As far a range finders, I used to take mine to the defense course and just left it in my quiver and never took it out again once on the course. Big deal. I never used it to any advantage on the course other than extra weight to lug around. I look at it like I look at my sight. I used a slider sight in HC but obviously never touched it once I entered the course. I guess if I was so inclined I could have but that would be cheating. There are opportunities to cheat all over if people are so inclined. Using a range finder would be the single most obvious one to be caught doing so I really don't see it as a big deal to possess one.
> 
> Pencil whipping, calling arrows in that are clearly out, counting steps of archers in the group ahead of you, and stepping off targets and telling your buddies that shoot the next day the range are a much bigger deal than carrying a range finder that isn't even used on the course.
> 
> If people want to get all wound up about rules, lets see the 2 minute rule enforced. The shooter back up is what causes more problems and lack of return shooters than anything else. Do those of you whining about a few extra yards on a target really want that one enforced? I doubt it. Remember, the 2 min starts at the shot of the person ahead of you.


Yes I want the rules enforced. No doubt about it. Even the 2 minute rule and in the pros it is enforced on the ranges. Are you saying you dont want the rules enforced? You feel five or six yards is Ok. Everyone shoots the same target? Way you talk the rules are constantly broken and it not that big of deal. Maybe Im not understanding you completely.

Why have rules if your not going to enforce them?
DB


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## CDURFEY

unks24 said:


> 7 yards over would be tough to swallow. Do the police pull everyone over for going 5mph over the speed limit. Peer shooters such as yourself should know distances this close. I hope Chad Durfey is reading thos he is a state trooper and I am sure he doesnt bust everyone for going over the speed limit, and he is not on here whining about target #3 on course A being 39 yards instead of 35 I would bet he x ringed it being 4 yards over. Why???? Because he is that good lets all quit whining and practice that long shot. It is what it is guys!!!! Good luck to all at the worlds, I didnt qualify and it is "MY" own fault not the IBO.


 A,B,C, and D were tough...no doubt. They were long and dark. I expect these shoots to be CHALLENGING. Who wants to shoot at a National event and not be challenged...not me or the guys I shoot with! 
I hope Seven Springs puts as much effort in setting targets as these folks did. The Cardnial Center and the IBO did a good job challenging the shooters and DQing those who needed to be. It definately seperated the men from the boys, women from the girls, and the cheaters from the shooters. This was The Cardinal Centers first year to host an archery tournamant. They will work the kinks out. The IBO does have some issues that they are trying to work out also. 
Most are forgetting what's important here.......HAVING FUN!!!!! No matter how well (or not so well) we did at any shoot, one must remember why we do it. Our jobs are stressfull and tiring. Most can say raising a family is exhausting. Going to these events should be fun. A time for us to forget about work and our worries. Make new friends and catch up with old ones. LAUGH!!!!
I have rambled enough...... HAVE FUN, LAUGH, BE HUMBLE, and for Goodness sake kiss your kids goodnight and get off this stinking computer!!!!!!


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## unks24

Amen Mr.Durfey!!! That is what it is all about. Let me knpw when you will be shooting at Wildwood in Delta sometime I would love the opportunity to meet you and possibly shoot with you mayne I could learn little bit from you. Or even Montpelier or Stryker. Good luck at the Worlds and good job on the triple crown.

Jeff


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## unks24

My apologies for all of the mis-spellings I am working this from my phone. The thumbs are larger than the letters.


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## ahcnc

CDURFEY said:


> A,B,C, and D were tough...no doubt. They were long and dark. I expect these shoots to be CHALLENGING. Who wants to shoot at a National event and not be challenged...not me or the guys I shoot with!
> I hope Seven Springs puts as much effort in setting targets as these folks did. The Cardnial Center and the IBO did a good job challenging the shooters and DQing those who needed to be. It definately seperated the men from the boys, women from the girls, and the cheaters from the shooters. This was The Cardinal Centers first year to host an archery tournamant. They will work the kinks out. The IBO does have some issues that they are trying to work out also.
> Most are forgetting what's important here.......HAVING FUN!!!!! No matter how well (or not so well) we did at any shoot, one must remember why we do it. Our jobs are stressfull and tiring. Most can say raising a family is exhausting. Going to these events should be fun. A time for us to forget about work and our worries. Make new friends and catch up with old ones. LAUGH!!!!
> I have rambled enough...... HAVE FUN, LAUGH, BE HUMBLE, and for Goodness sake kiss your kids goodnight and get off this stinking computer!!!!!!


You RULE my friend!!!!! See ya soon!!!


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## buck_up_inohio

people care because that is the rules!!! is it ok to use a slider sight every once in awhile also?


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## kw1

z3shooter said:


> hey KW1 were you one of the range offcials? noticed you are from mt vernom


I was working the tent and I walked a couple of groups that need someone to keep score, and yes I live about 15 minutes away.


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## mocheese

kw1 said:


> I was working the tent and I walked a couple of groups that need someone to keep score, and yes I live about 15 minutes away.


I say great job to all of you that were involved. I know a lot of hard work goes into a shoot of that magnitude. Keep up the good work and hopefully we'll see you again next year. JW


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## tweeter196

buck_up_inohio said:


> people care because that is the rules!!! is it ok to use a slider sight every once in awhile also?


X2......I see pages and pages on the rangefinder issues....pencil pushing......line pulling.......non busted buddies........it is in black and white in the rules.....true everyone shot the same course......true cardinal shooting center did an awesome job putting this event on......I did not range any targets.....but I can remember at least four where the range seemed a bit excessive over the max.....there is a variance allowed but I would have to say that line was crossed on a few. Picture a group of four shooting.....all great shots so far.......the first guy shoots and lands a dead low five.......the next to barely catch the 8 directly below the ten.....the next guy in line sees the pattern and catches on to what happened and shoots for over max......is that fair to the other 3 ? If the first three are nervous of the distance and there calming statement to themselves is "its 35 yard max" how did they deserve the 5 or 8 if the target was 37 yards or more.....if this is rule then it should be enforced like all the other rules plain and simple......for first year of this leg the cardinal shooting center did awesome awesome.......but this particular item should be paid closer attention to next year IMO..........

Fearless at the stake!!!!!


----------



## 1ryanman

tweeter196 said:


> X2......I see pages and pages on the rangefinder issues....pencil pushing......line pulling.......non busted buddies........it is in black and white in the rules.....true everyone shot the same course......true cardinal shooting center did an awesome job putting this event on......I did not range any targets.....but I can remember at least four where the range seemed a bit excessive over the max.....there is a variance allowed but I would have to say that line was crossed on a few. Picture a group of four shooting.....all great shots so far.......the first guy shoots and lands a dead low five.......the next to barely catch the 8 directly below the ten.....the next guy in line sees the pattern and catches on to what happened and shoots for over max......is that fair to the other 3 ? If the first three are nervous of the distance and there calming statement to themselves is "its 35 yard max" how did they deserve the 5 or 8 if the target was 37 yards or more.....if this is rule then it should be enforced like all the other rules plain and simple......for first year of this leg the cardinal shooting center did awesome awesome.......but this particular item should be paid closer attention to next year IMO..........
> 
> Fearless at the stake!!!!!


Well said i agree


----------



## kw1

tweeter196 said:


> X2......I see pages and pages on the rangefinder issues....pencil pushing......line pulling.......non busted buddies........it is in black and white in the rules.....true everyone shot the same course......true cardinal shooting center did an awesome job putting this event on......I did not range any targets.....but I can remember at least four where the range seemed a bit excessive over the max.....there is a variance allowed but I would have to say that line was crossed on a few. Picture a group of four shooting.....all great shots so far.......the first guy shoots and lands a dead low five.......the next to barely catch the 8 directly below the ten.....the next guy in line sees the pattern and catches on to what happened and shoots for over max......is that fair to the other 3 ? If the first three are nervous of the distance and there calming statement to themselves is "its 35 yard max" how did they deserve the 5 or 8 if the target was 37 yards or more.....if this is rule then it should be enforced like all the other rules plain and simple......for first year of this leg the cardinal shooting center did awesome awesome.......but this particular item should be paid closer attention to next year IMO..........
> 
> Fearless at the stake!!!!!


And all I can say is after folks said something two guys went out with two different range finders and didn't find any targets that were stretched beyond max.


----------



## gymrat70

flintcreek6412 said:


> As some have stated, who really cares if the targets are a little too far. Everyone has to shoot the same targets.
> 
> As far a range finders, I used to take mine to the defense course and just left it in my quiver and never took it out again once on the course. Big deal. I never used it to any advantage on the course other than extra weight to lug around. I look at it like I look at my sight. I used a slider sight in HC but obviously never touched it once I entered the course. I guess if I was so inclined I could have but that would be cheating. There are opportunities to cheat all over if people are so inclined. Using a range finder would be the single most obvious one to be caught doing so I really don't see it as a big deal to possess one.
> 
> Pencil whipping, calling arrows in that are clearly out, counting steps of archers in the group ahead of you, and stepping off targets and telling your buddies that shoot the next day the range are a much bigger deal than carrying a range finder that isn't even used on the course.
> 
> If people want to get all wound up about rules, lets see the 2 minute rule enforced. The shooter back up is what causes more problems and lack of return shooters than anything else. Do those of you whining about a few extra yards on a target really want that one enforced? I doubt it. Remember, the 2 min starts at the shot of the person ahead of you.


I don't have a dog in this fight, just saw the title and decided to check it out. I think the issue here is integrety on both sides. 1. If the rules state max yardage for a particular class is X then it should not exceed X. If it does exceed X then lots of shooters will use their max pin at most and shoot low because they are basing their shot on the target not exceeding max distance as stated in the rules. 2. If the rules state no range finders then no range finders, period. IBO needs to set the tone by holding to their own rules and holding hosting clubs or those who set the targets to those rules. In my opinion the club who hosted the event needs to be reported and dealt with. If IBO officials set the targets or oversaw this then they need be held accountable. Simply put both sides need to be held to the rulebook.


----------



## echatham

are people trying to win something at these shoots? around here there are just club shoots everyweekend.. I don't know that there are any prizes or anything... I just shoot to have fun and try to beat my personal best. I sometimes range targets after I shoot.. sometimes before.. sometimes I don't shoot from the stakes... whatever who cares. I don't even turn my card in anyways,


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## Daniel Boone

echatham said:


> are people trying to win something at these shoots? around here there are just club shoots everyweekend.. I don't know that there are any prizes or anything... I just shoot to have fun and try to beat my personal best. I sometimes range targets after I shoot.. sometimes before.. sometimes I don't shoot from the stakes... whatever who cares. I don't even turn my card in anyways,


Answer is yes! It a tournament. Tournament is a compitition between archers to see who scores the best. You dont range the targets at tournaments. This is why tournament archers are dedicated and do shoot so well. They push thereself to win.
DB


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## Fire Archer

kw1 said:


> And all I can say is after folks said something two guys went out with two different range finders and didn't find any targets that were stretched beyond max.


I was told by one of the staff guys at the tent that were two targets that were 52.5. But he said that was legal since it was within the approximate (whatever number that may be) distance. Also talked to an IBO official on the course and he also said there were targets over 50 but within the "approximate" distance but he said there was nothing 56 yards which I didn't think so either. Cardinal done an excellent job setting up the courses but the rule reads that it is approximate in case a rangefinder may be off a yard or two. Therefore, if you set a target your rangefinder should never read over 50 yards.


----------



## Fire Archer

tweeter196 said:


> X2......I see pages and pages on the rangefinder issues....pencil pushing......line pulling.......non busted buddies........it is in black and white in the rules.....true everyone shot the same course......true cardinal shooting center did an awesome job putting this event on......I did not range any targets.....but I can remember at least four where the range seemed a bit excessive over the max.....there is a variance allowed but I would have to say that line was crossed on a few. Picture a group of four shooting.....all great shots so far.......the first guy shoots and lands a dead low five.......the next to barely catch the 8 directly below the ten.....the next guy in line sees the pattern and catches on to what happened and shoots for over max......is that fair to the other 3 ? If the first three are nervous of the distance and there calming statement to themselves is "its 35 yard max" how did they deserve the 5 or 8 if the target was 37 yards or more.....if this is rule then it should be enforced like all the other rules plain and simple......for first year of this leg the cardinal shooting center did awesome awesome.......but this particular item should be paid closer attention to next year IMO..........
> 
> Fearless at the stake!!!!!


I seen this happen in my group. First guy shot a low 5 but wasn't happy with his execution of the shot so I thought well he just dropped his bow or something or maybe he shot it for 48 or 49 so I put 50 on it. I ended up shooting a 5 as well. Next guy ended up shooting it for 51 and shot a low 8. Last guy to shoot was a pretty good shooter and hit an 11. He said he shot it for 54 yards. In the end, I guess it was my fault for not actually judging the target beyond 50 and just assuming that it was 50 yard max.


----------



## echatham

Daniel Boone said:


> Answer is yes! It a tournament. Tournament is a compitition between archers to see who scores the best. You dont range the targets at tournaments. This is why tournament archers are dedicated and do shoot so well. They push thereself to win.
> DB


well I know what a tournament is, and i guess technically, the shoots we have here are tournaments too, I just don't know of any prize other than bragging rights. for me its just fun and practice, never even hung around long enough to find out who won or where I placed.


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## Jame

Fire Archer said:


> I was told by one of the staff guys at the tent that were two targets that were 52.5. But he said that was legal since it was within the approximate (whatever number that may be) distance. Also talked to an IBO official on the course and he also said there were targets over 50 but within the "approximate" distance but he said there was nothing 56 yards which I didn't think so either. Cardinal done an excellent job setting up the courses but the rule reads that it is approximate in case a rangefinder may be off a yard or two. Therefore, if you set a target your rangefinder should never read over 50 yards.



Go read the rules atleaste thats what Ibo needs to do. It says approximate but not to exceed the max distance. I shot the ranges. I shot a 5 low on a target with 52 yards set on my sight. I shot 2 low tens (outside looking in on the 10 ring) with 52 and 52.5 set on my sight so I guarantee you there were targets 54 yards. 

Now with that being said I believe it was done honestly. Most of us think that whoever set the ranges had there range finder set on meters. 

All in all the ranges were set fantastic. I dont agree with some of the distances especially being the first shooter but the ranges were set tough.
Jame


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## Daniel Boone

echatham said:


> well I know what a tournament is, and i guess technically, the shoots we have here are tournaments too, I just don't know of any prize other than bragging rights. for me its just fun and practice, never even hung around long enough to find out who won or where I placed.


I dont need to go shoot a tournament to do what your saying. I can have fun at the house or buddys range and we do.

We love the challenge of shooting and testing are skills against another archer. 

Glad your enjoying shooting. Everyone has there own reasons for shooting. Rhinehart 100 sounds like it made for you. All for good fun event.
DB


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## Fire Archer

Jame said:


> Go read the rules atleaste thats what Ibo needs to do. It says approximate but not to exceed the max distance. I shot the ranges. I shot a 5 low on a target with 52 yards set on my sight. I shot 2 low tens (outside looking in on the 10 ring) with 52 and 52.5 set on my sight so I guarantee you there were targets 54 yards.
> 
> Now with that being said I believe it was done honestly. Most of us think that whoever set the ranges had there range finder set on meters.
> 
> All in all the ranges were set fantastic. I dont agree with some of the distances especially being the first shooter but the ranges were set tough.
> Jame


I done the same thing. I shot 4 5's low with 50 or 51 set on my sight. The next day I shot a bear for 52.5 and got an 11. One of the guys in front of us shooting peers in MBO (he finished very well) said that he had shot one target for 54 yards and another for 55.


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## treeman65

Fire Archer said:


> I done the same thing. I shot 4 5's low with 50 or 51 set on my sight. The next day I shot a bear for 52.5 and got an 11. One of the guys in front of us shooting peers in MBO (he finished very well) said that he had shot one target for 54 yards and another for 55.


I have seen it many times in a group where everyone shoots a different yardage at the same target and all the arrows still grouped together.There are too many variables involved to say a target was a certain distance cause of that but it can be an assumption.(not accurant without ranging it tho)


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## Daniel Boone

Fire Archer said:


> I done the same thing. I shot 4 5's low with 50 or 51 set on my sight. The next day I shot a bear for 52.5 and got an 11. One of the guys in front of us shooting peers in MBO (he finished very well) said that he had shot one target for 54 yards and another for 55.


Most pro archers I have shot with once they have shot the target can tell you exactly what the distance is. Used a range finder plenty of times and seen it for myself. They hold and aim a little better than most of us.
DB


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## treeman65

Daniel Boone said:


> Most pro archers I have shot with once they have shot the target can tell you exactly what the distance is. Used a range finder plenty of times and seen it for myself. They hold and aim a little better than most of us.
> DB


yes most pro archers do and so do some amatures but they are a small percentage of archers at these shoots.


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## Joseph McCluske

I shot in a peer group with a couple x-pros who dropped down in class to shoot msr, really good guys and shooters, we shot e,f,g,h and after the shoot we were talking about the longest target, one said his longest shot he made was 44, me and the other guy longest shot was 45. Several other guys on the buggie said there were targets out to 48 yards, my group did not agree with them but we neither paced them or ranged them so I guess everyone had there own opinion. If i'm lucky i'll get another chance to shoot with them guys at the worlds we really had a good time, Thanks, Rick, Dan, Gregg. Special thanks to the IBO and Cardinal Center for setting up a nice course and an enjoyable weekend.


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## HardcoreArchery

Jame said:


> Go read the rules atleaste thats what Ibo needs to do. It says approximate but not to exceed the max distance. I shot the ranges. I shot a 5 low on a target with 52 yards set on my sight. I shot 2 low tens (outside looking in on the 10 ring) with 52 and 52.5 set on my sight so I guarantee you there were targets 54 yards.
> 
> Now with that being said I believe it was done honestly. Most of us think that whoever set the ranges had there range finder set on meters.
> 
> All in all the ranges were set fantastic. I dont agree with some of the distances especially being the first shooter but the ranges were set tough.
> Jame


I couldn't agree more some guys have a problem getting the concept that max is max. Everyone should follow the rules including the IBO.


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## Fire Archer

For there not to have been stretched targets why was it and still is such a hot topic. I have never heard anyone talk distances at these shoots like they did this past weekend. To me that says a lot in itself. A lot of the same shooters shot Bedford and Erie and didn't complain about long targets but there was a lot of talking about stretched targets at Cardinal. There was a couple at Bedford that I shot for max and Erie had a lot of long shots. I never really heard anyone complain about anything over max, but at Cardinal they did a lot of talking about it and even went to the officials over it. I told the IBO official that was ranging targets after they had got complaints that I would bet him $100 if he took my rangefinder out that some of them were over 50 and of course he just laughed at me and said "I better not do that".


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## blinginpse

All we hear is------->:hurt::blah:......everybody shot the same targets in the each class so it was fair


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## J Whittington

I wish i could prove it Jame. If I could, Id bet you a steak dinner at the classic that every target over 50 was done so intentionally! Not just the 3rd leg, but at the other 2 legs as well.
yes, everyone shoots the same target, but not the same oder. 1st man up is the gueeny pig. 
I think the max percentage should be 3% since the chronos are given a 3% margin (for those choose the 280 rule vs the 5 gr per pound rule)
3% of 50 would e 51.5. guys were shooting bows, not 243s


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## J Whittington

blinginpse said:


> All we hear is------->:hurt::blah:......everybody shot the same targets in the each class so it was fair


i agree mostly with your comment, but I have to argue that the first person up on the 50+ bombs is at a disadvantage. However, I would agrre if everyone in the group equally shared the pleasure of going first on the bomb targets through out the course. 

IMHO the archery orgs need to follow the rules they have set for themselves. We need to keep the regular guys returning, and attract and keep the newones. For the new guy attending a national event, I can not think of a better way of running him off, and not returning, by setting a bunch o tagerts 2yds or more over the max that he/she expects. part of learning the game is learning and abiding by the rules. 

I have no doubt that all the targets set over the max(yes, for each class). during the NTC crown was done so intentionally. the rules state approximate for variances in range finders...which is good....they do vary! but not by 4-5 yds.


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## Barn Burner Strings

If the rule is 50 yards and they were past that it should be looked at by the ibo. It may be fair because everyone has to shoot them, it's not fair to practice out to 50 and shoot year round at targets that 50 yards are less and you go to a competition that has a max 50 yard and they are set at 52/53/54. Just not the kinda stuff I want to be shooting are part of. With today's technology a one yard variance is about as much as you see.


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## z3shooter

kw1 were you working ijkl courses if so are you saying the TWO GUYS THAT WENT OUT WITH TWO RANGE FINDERS said the white goat on i and the brown bear on j and the wolf on l wasnt over max? if thats the case will you defind MAX for mw


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## deadcenter3d

hoosierredneck said:


> why don't they change mbo to 55 yd max, every ibo shoot so far this year has had over the max yd targets.don;t tell me 50 max then stick in 54 yd targets.they use 2 range finders at each target so they know what there doing.i think that B.S.


Exactly!!


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## cenochs

Barn Burner said:


> If the rule is 50 yards and they were past that it should be looked at by the ibo. It may be fair because everyone has to shoot them, it's not fair to practice out to 50 and shoot year round at targets that 50 yards are less and you go to a competition that has a max 50 yard and they are set at 52/53/54. Just not the kinda stuff I want to be shooting are part of. With today's technology a one yard variance is about as much as you see.


Great post! One way to keep the host clubs honest is to write into their contract if a target is over max distance then money will be taken back for each target over Max and given to the IBO! We all know Ken is about the all mitty $$ and if he knew he could recoup money he would have his people looking for targets over max distance..like the post says if it says 50 yard max then with today's technology it should be 50!! Each target needs to verified by 2 range finders and each person doing the ranging needs to sign off on each target on each course they range!! And for targets you can't see because you are shooting back in a dark hole while standing in a field with open light is something that needs addressed for both ASA and IBO... The Powerline in London KY ASA was REALLY tough to shoot sunday morning, my group could not even see the target and it was a good 8 targets before we could make them out!! I heard the Pros complained in Metropolis about this exact same problem and they where moved to a different range for Sunday. If the organizations want to raise attendance then problems like these are easily fixed...It takes the ones in charge to get the ball rolling...Both ASA and IBO should have learned something from this years tournaments and hopefully it improves the quality of the tournaments!!!!!!!


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## Uzurmnd247

I haven't shot IBO in years. I don't know if the rule is still 5 gr. per pound of bow. Or if it is like ASA speed limit. In either case the longer draw shooters have an advantage. In IBO if a guy has a 27" draw and another has 31, you're talking about 40 ft per sec. That is a flatter shooting arrow which could hold better at longer distance. thus getting a better score if both guess the same yardage. In ASA a longer draw can shoot a fatter shaft and better point (F.O.C.) combination or lighter poundage. Just My opinion!


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## Supermag1

Uzurmnd247 said:


> I haven't shot IBO in years. I don't know if the rule is still 5 gr. per pound of bow. Or if it is like ASA speed limit. In either case the longer draw shooters have an advantage. In IBO if a guy has a 27" draw and another has 31, you're talking about 40 ft per sec. That is a flatter shooting arrow which could hold better at longer distance. thus getting a better score if both guess the same yardage. In ASA a longer draw can shoot a fatter shaft and better point (F.O.C.) combination or lighter poundage. Just My opinion!


Umm, this thread isn't about speed limits or how disadvantaged people think short draw archers are.


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## SonnyThomas

I must have missed it. Just how many were actually caught with range fineders and DQed?


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## C.Callison

Same old stuff,just a different shoot. Rangefinders on the range, groups not busted, buddies shooting together shooting all 40 on Friday. Rules not being enforced. We all know how the shoots are run. I say go and shoot and take what you get. Or don't show up.


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## 3dbowtechman

1 DQ.He told an official he ranged a target after he shot a target


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## kw1

Fire Archer said:


> I was told by one of the staff guys at the tent that were two targets that were 52.5. But he said that was legal since it was within the approximate (whatever number that may be) distance. Also talked to an IBO official on the course and he also said there were targets over 50 but within the "approximate" distance but he said there was nothing 56 yards which I didn't think so either. Cardinal done an excellent job setting up the courses but the rule reads that it is approximate in case a rangefinder may be off a yard or two. Therefore, if you set a target your rangefinder should never read over 50 yards.


All I can say is I'm done. I can sit here and explain till I'm blue in the face, and people will believe what they want. I'm glad the majority of people had fun and enjoyed them selves.


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## 3dbowtechman

For a first time venue,I believe everything went pretty smooth.There were a few hiccups,give the people in charge a chance to fix them not hang them.We need more places to shoot like the cardinal center.


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## hrtlnd164

First off I would like to say thanks to all the folks that put on one of the most challenging IBO shoots I have attended. Great courses and facilities. As far as the rangefinders go; I read the rules as rangefinders and cameras are "prohibited". To me that means not on the course. If you don't have it you can't use it. For the past 2 seasons I have arrived at each venue prepared to shoot targets beyond max yardage on the Semi ranges. It's pretty much a given that you will get the occasional 52-53 yarder. Maybe they should adhere more to the no more than 50 version but who really does not know by now that they don't follow that 100% of the time. These are National shoots, they are supposed to be harder than your weekend fun shoots. Don't get me wrong, I agree with the part that the IBO should follow the guidelines established with the max distances, but I also stand by the fact that you always need to shoot it for what you see. And the last point I have is that some are saying the Venue staff set these ranges long. I may be wrong but I believe that the IBO officials set the stakes on the ranges, the venue staff cuts the lanes and sets the targets then the IBO staff sets the stakes and verifies things. Please correct me if I am wrong on this one.


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## unks24

Very well put the main words "shoot them for what they are". The third leg all of the peer shooters are tight you need to have a few to seperate them. If everyone could just shoot for the allowed max yardage does it make anyone stand out? You have to have a few of these to see who trumps who. Some people don't realize and don't care how much work goes into organizing and setting up these shoots. Be thankful for the opportunity to participate and if it upsets you this much then maybe just stay home and shoot at a 20 yard bale where you can always be the best or learn by this and SHOOT THEM FOR WHAT THEY ARE!!!


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## f4yg

hrtlnd164 said:


> First off I would like to say thanks to all the folks that put on one of the most challenging IBO shoots I have attended. Great courses and facilities. As far as the rangefinders go; I read the rules as rangefinders and cameras are "prohibited". To me that means not on the course. If you don't have it you can't use it. For the past 2 seasons I have arrived at each venue prepared to shoot targets beyond max yardage on the Semi ranges. It's pretty much a given that you will get the occasional 52-53 yarder. Maybe they should adhere more to the no more than 50 version but who really does not know by now that they don't follow that 100% of the time. These are National shoots, they are supposed to be harder than your weekend fun shoots. Don't get me wrong, I agree with the part that the IBO should follow the guidelines established with the max distances, but I also stand by the fact that you always need to shoot it for what you see. And the last point I have is that some are saying the Venue staff set these ranges long. I may be wrong but I believe that the IBO officials set the stakes on the ranges, the venue staff cuts the lanes and sets the targets then the IBO staff sets the stakes and verifies things. Please correct me if I am wrong on this one.



I was thinking the same thing.. I was told by some of the guys who set Erie that the club sets the targets and cut lanes ,but that the IBO was responsible for setting stakes.....

Can someone verify this?


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## cory2011

Hello everybody my name is Cory and I am the guy who got DQ 'ed on Friday. I would like to put my 2 cents in. Do I think there were targets over 52 yes I do and I don't care I like a tuff course. Now for those of you wondering I did range a target AFTRER I SHOT and it was the wolf. When the first guy to shoot missed the target I said to myself self that's a bomb! I already had my sight set at 52 I walked up to the stake glassed the target and shot it and hit low just under the ten. I said to myself self that's a bomb you made a good shot and still low! I walked behind the group and either out of habit or just Plain stupid I pulled out my range finder and hit it 58 took 4 yards off guessed it for 54. And no one in the group new I did that. When I was talking to the official and when he asked What I thought of the course I said its long Had a target quite a bit over max. He asked how do I no that and I told him the rest is history. Am I mad at the officials and the IBO? Hell no I got to shoot 26 fun targets And shot with 4 cool guys and that's what it is about having fun and meeting new people so no I' am not mad I screwed up and payed the price.


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## kw1

f4yg said:


> I was thinking the same thing.. I was told by some of the guys who set Erie that the club sets the targets and cut lanes ,but that the IBO was responsible for setting stakes.....
> 
> Can someone verify this?


Yes and no club sets targets and stakes the ibo comes in and checks to make sure it is right


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## HardcoreArchery

kw1 said:


> Yes and no club sets targets and stakes the ibo comes in and checks to make sure it is right


That's exactly why the blame should not be placed on you guys it should be placed on the IBO. It is up to them to follow the rules just like we have to. Hey the DQ'd a shooter because he used a rangefinder but its ok for them to break the rules?


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## f4yg

kw1 said:


> Yes and no club sets targets and stakes the ibo comes in and checks to make sure it is right


Thank You for your input


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## kw1

HardcoreArchery said:


> That's exactly why the blame should not be placed on you guys it should be placed on the IBO. It is up to them to follow the rules just like we have to. Hey the DQ'd a shooter because he used a rangefinder but its ok for them to break the rules?


Guy you just need to give it up.


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## Supermag1

cory2011 said:


> Hello everybody my name is Cory and I am the guy who got DQ 'ed on Friday. I would like to put my 2 cents in. Do I think there were targets over 52 yes I do and I don't care I like a tuff course. Now for those of you wondering I did range a target AFTRER I SHOT and it was the wolf. When the first guy to shoot missed the target I said to myself self that's a bomb! I already had my sight set at 52 I walked up to the stake glassed the target and shot it and hit low just under the ten. I said to myself self that's a bomb you made a good shot and still low! I walked behind the group and either out of habit or just Plain stupid I pulled out my range finder and hit it 58 took 4 yards off guessed it for 54. And no one in the group new I did that. When I was talking to the official and when he asked What I thought of the course I said its long Had a target quite a bit over max. He asked how do I no that and I told him the rest is history. Am I mad at the officials and the IBO? Hell no I got to shoot 26 fun targets And shot with 4 cool guys and that's what it is about having fun and meeting new people so no I' am not mad I screwed up and payed the price.


Very well said and kudos to you for taking responsibility for your mistake and taking the consequences like a true sportsman and lover of archery.


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## Daniel Boone

cory2011 said:


> Hello everybody my name is Cory and I am the guy who got DQ 'ed on Friday. I would like to put my 2 cents in. Do I think there were targets over 52 yes I do and I don't care I like a tuff course. Now for those of you wondering I did range a target AFTRER I SHOT and it was the wolf. When the first guy to shoot missed the target I said to myself self that's a bomb! I already had my sight set at 52 I walked up to the stake glassed the target and shot it and hit low just under the ten. I said to myself self that's a bomb you made a good shot and still low! I walked behind the group and either out of habit or just Plain stupid I pulled out my range finder and hit it 58 took 4 yards off guessed it for 54. And no one in the group new I did that. When I was talking to the official and when he asked What I thought of the course I said its long Had a target quite a bit over max. He asked how do I no that and I told him the rest is history. Am I mad at the officials and the IBO? Hell no I got to shoot 26 fun targets And shot with 4 cool guys and that's what it is about having fun and meeting new people so no I' am not mad I screwed up and payed the price.


Thats unacceptable. I heard some pros say there was targets way past max. Shame with such a great location someone cant use a simple rangefinder. 
DB


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## Bowtech n ROSS

This was one of the best sets i have ever shot. We have been dealing with targets over max all year in semi. I expect world to be no different.i kinda like it. There is nothing like setting your sight for 53 and smoking it.


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## Daniel Boone

Bowtech n ROSS said:


> This was one of the best sets i have ever shot. We have been dealing with targets over max all year in semi. I expect world to be no different.i kinda like it. There is nothing like setting your sight for 53 and smoking it.


So 58 yrd sets are fine with you? How about 62yrds. Maybe no limit.
DB


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## Bowtech n ROSS

58? Probably pushing it. But ill deal with 53s.


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## buckman2591

How hard is it to grasp the concept of a 3, count them: 1, 2, 3 yards over the max distance, not this JUNK:









Oh yeah it is 30ish, 40ish, 45ish, 50ish . No that is BULL. We have to follow the rules, so do the officials.

Same deal with our LEO's who don't have to follow seatbelt, speed limit or texting laws, but WE do!


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## foamslayer20

What is the big deal? If I think a target is over I shoot it for what it is not what a stupid piece of paper says it should be. Maybe guys got real comfortable with the other shoots being mostly gimme shots and this one you actually had to work for it.


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## Daniel Boone

foamslayer20 said:


> What is the big deal? If I think a target is over I shoot it for what it is not what a stupid piece of paper says it should be. Maybe guys got real comfortable with the other shoots being mostly gimme shots and this one you actually had to work for it.


Why follow rules. Maybe your comfortable without any rules. Just make them up as we go. 
DB


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## foamslayer20

Daniel Boone said:


> Why follow rules. Maybe your comfortable without any rules. Just make them up as we go.
> DB


Everybody shoots the same targets right? I have never seen so much *****ing and crying ever. If people don't like it don't shoot no one is making you go to the shoots! Do you shoot IBO?


----------



## Daniel Boone

foamslayer20 said:


> Everybody shoots the same targets right? I have never seen so much *****ing and crying ever. If people don't like it don't shoot no one is making you go to the shoots! Do you shoot IBO?


So 58yrds for a 50yrd max would be fine with you correct? I have never seen such a disregard for the obvious rules. Apparently you think rules do not need to be followed. Everything acceptable to you including not following the rules. No whining just facts.

By the way if they dont follow the rules they set. I wouldnt travel to the event. Does it matter what 3d event it is? Some of us feel rules are in place for a good reason for both archer and club. Apparently you dont see it that way. 


DB


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## cenochs

Daniel Boone said:


> So 58yrds for a 50yrd max would be fine with you correct? I have never seen such a disregard for the obvious rules. Apparently you think rules do not need to be followed. Everything acceptable to you including not following the rules. No whining just facts.
> 
> By the way if they dont follow the rules they set. I wouldnt travel to the event. Does it matter what 3d event it is? Some of us feel rules are in place for a good reason for both archer and club. Apparently you dont see it that way.
> 
> 
> DB


I agree with you DB...


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## treeman65

foamslayer20 said:


> Everybody shoots the same targets right? I have never seen so much *****ing and crying ever. If people don't like it don't shoot no one is making you go to the shoots! Do you shoot IBO?


youi got that right and just cause we feel this way db will assume we dont want rule.


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## Outback Man

Daniel Boone said:


> So 58yrds for a 50yrd max would be fine with you correct? I have never seen such a disregard for the obvious rules. Apparently you think rules do not need to be followed. Everything acceptable to you including not following the rules. No whining just facts.
> 
> By the way if they dont follow the rules they set. I wouldnt travel to the event. Does it matter what 3d event it is? Some of us feel rules are in place for a good reason for both archer and club. Apparently you dont see it that way.
> 
> 
> DB


I find it kind of comical that you are so heck bent on following the rules yet post "great" videos of pros shooting this same event who are clearly breaking one, if not several, rules on that video. You keep busting everyone's chops that don't care about a few targets being over max as 3d anarchists who are treading the slippery slope that will bring around the end of days or something but yet you're seemingly ok when certain people break certain rules. Pot...kettle??? No disrespect intended but I'm just saying.

And someone nailed it earlier about different set ups and what each individual person shoots something for. I don't think my distances ever match who I'm shooting with. That cinnamon bear everyone keeps talking about...we had two Gus pinwheel it set at 51 and 52 yards. 

Also my buddies range finder is always 1.5 USA different from mine. Last different rangefinders read different in different settings and even possible on different color targets.

Lot of crying by people who screwed up shots in my opinion and I'm not saying I didn't have a Tim of issues myself...it was a challenging and great shoot.


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## Daniel Boone

Outback Man said:


> I find it kind of comical that you are so heck bent on following the rules yet post "great" videos of pros shooting this same event who are clearly breaking one, if not several, rules on that video. You keep busting everyone's chops that don't care about a few targets being over max as 3d anarchists who are treading the slippery slope that will bring around the end of days or something but yet you're seemingly ok when certain people break certain rules. Pot...kettle??? No disrespect intended but I'm just saying.
> 
> And someone nailed it earlier about different set ups and what each individual person shoots something for. I don't think my distances ever match who I'm shooting with. That cinnamon bear everyone keeps talking about...we had two Gus pinwheel it set at 51 and 52 yards.
> 
> Also my buddies range finder is always 1.5 USA different from mine. Last different rangefinders read different in different settings and even possible on different color targets.
> 
> Lot of crying by people who screwed up shots in my opinion and I'm not saying I didn't have a Tim of issues myself...it was a challenging and great shoot.


Maybe next time they will set them 60yrds or farther. Sense you like a challenge. 
DB


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## Daniel Boone

Outback Man said:


> I find it kind of comical that you are so heck bent on following the rules yet post "great" videos of pros shooting this same event who are clearly breaking one, if not several, rules on that video. You keep busting everyone's chops that don't care about a few targets being over max as 3d anarchists who are treading the slippery slope that will bring around the end of days or something but yet you're seemingly ok when certain people break certain rules. Pot...kettle??? No disrespect intended but I'm just saying.
> 
> And someone nailed it earlier about different set ups and what each individual person shoots something for. I don't think my distances ever match who I'm shooting with. That cinnamon bear everyone keeps talking about...we had two Gus pinwheel it set at 51 and 52 yards.
> 
> Also my buddies range finder is always 1.5 USA different from mine. Last different rangefinders read different in different settings and even possible on different color targets.
> 
> Lot of crying by people who screwed up shots in my opinion and I'm not saying I didn't have a Tim of issues myself...it was a challenging and great shoot.


Maybe next time they will set them 60yrds or farther. Sense you like a challenge. 
Simple rewrite the rules. Extend the max distance if this is what you want. No one saying it wasnt a great event and nice place to shoot. 

DB


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## bsharkey

Daniel Boone said:


> Maybe next time they will set them 60yrds or farther. Sense you like a challenge.
> Simple rewrite the rules. Extend the max distance if this is what you want. No one saying it wasnt a great event and nice place to shoot.
> 
> DB


x2 DB just through out the rule book 60 yrds heck childs play for AT make it 80yrds if were not going to play by the rules who cares.


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## treeman65

Outback Man said:


> I find it kind of comical that you are so heck bent on following the rules yet post "great" videos of pros shooting this same event who are clearly breaking one, if not several, rules on that video. You keep busting everyone's chops that don't care about a few targets being over max as 3d anarchists who are treading the slippery slope that will bring around the end of days or something but yet you're seemingly ok when certain people break certain rules. Pot...kettle??? No disrespect intended but I'm just saying.
> 
> And someone nailed it earlier about different set ups and what each individual person shoots something for. I don't think my distances ever match who I'm shooting with. That cinnamon bear everyone keeps talking about...we had two Gus pinwheel it set at 51 and 52 yards.
> 
> Also my buddies range finder is always 1.5 USA different from mine. Last different rangefinders read different in different settings and even possible on different color targets.
> 
> Lot of crying by people who screwed up shots in my opinion and I'm not saying I didn't have a Tim of issues myself...it was a challenging and great shoot.


x2 it is so ridiculous


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## crow3k

Outback Man;1064635987 said:


> I find it kind of comical that you are so heck bent on following the rules yet post "great" videos of pros shooting this same event who are clearly breaking one, if not several, rules on that video. You keep busting everyone's chops that don't care about a few targets being over max as 3d anarchists who are treading the slippery slope that will bring around the end of days or something but yet you're seemingly ok when certain people break certain rules. Pot...kettle??? No disrespect intended but I'm just saying.
> what rules did they break i missed something?


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## Jame

Daniel Boone said:


> Maybe next time they will set them 60yrds or farther. Sense you like a challenge.
> DB


I got your back DB. Dont worry. :thumbs_up


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## Outback Man

Using binoculars from the stake after the shot. Section C item 3 says if repeatedly done will result in 5 point score deduction for each occurrence. I'm assuming the video wasn't the only target it was done on. How much would a 5 point deduct changed the outcome of the tournament? Pretty significantly I'd say. 

Electronic communication devices being used on the course. Section F item 4 part e. I don't know I'd the video was shot on a cell phone or video camera but I would think that both would qualify as an electronic communication device and playing a prank on a fellow shooter probably doesn't qualify as an emergency.


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## Jame

You are assuming. No proof they repeatedly glassed after the shot. The video camera was by a spectator who had permission by the IBO.
Jame


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## tmorelli

Boy, I'm starting to think people just come to AT looking for something to fight, gripe or whine about.


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## gjstudt

Jame said:


> You are assuming. No proof they repeatedly glassed after the shot. The video camera was by a spectator who had permission by the IBO.
> Jame



Jame I agree with you.

If they are referring to the video with Tim and snake they are incorrect anyway.

Levi steps off the stake before looking and Tim never actually looked.

We all want more publicity for archery and what BowJunky was doing for us as a sport is a great addition and I want it to continue.

I finished 2nd by 4 points and I know I finished 2nd and that is that. Everyone played fair and had fun doing it.

i'm looking forward to helping bowjunky continue to work towards providing the info to the public during the shoots.


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## Outback Man

Jame said:


> You are assuming. No proof they repeatedly glassed after the shot. The video camera was by a spectator who had permission by the IBO.
> Jame


Everyone is also assuming targets were as far as they "think" they were due to either how they shot them or here say from disgruntled shooters.


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## Daniel Boone

Honestly from all my buddies there. They said this was a awesome shoot and maybe one of the best IBO ever. 

Many of them feel that who ever ranged the targets had it set on meters. Could be an honest mistake. 

From what I'm hearing this is the norm from many of you.

Lets face it we may look at a target and see it over max. But honestly in the back of your mind your thinking 52 yrds max. due to the rules. But when it 54 or 58 like the guy who ranged a target and got DQ said, we realize it not right and talk about it only makes awareness of it from happening again.

Good luck to all at IBO worlds. 

PS

You don't have to make targets long if you want a challenging course.


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## Daniel Boone

Outback Man said:


> Everyone is also assuming targets were as far as they "think" they were due to either how they shot them or here say from disgruntled shooters.


The guy that got DQ ranged a target. It was 58yrds from his own words. Guys shot low with 54yrds. Dont think anyone assuming anything. Pros like Jame and Levi and others know if a target over 52yrds after the shot.
DB


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## Outback Man

gjstudt said:


> Jame I agree with you.
> 
> If they are referring to the video with Tim and snake they are incorrect anyway.
> 
> Levi steps off the stake before looking and Tim never actually looked.
> 
> We all want more publicity for archery and what BowJunky was doing for us as a sport is a great addition and I want it to continue.
> 
> I finished 2nd by 4 points and I know I finished 2nd and that is that. Everyone played fair and had fun doing it.
> 
> i'm looking forward to helping bowjunky continue to work towards providing the info to the public during the shoots.


He does move...about 6" and not far enough to allow the next shooter to step onto the stake until he's done glassing. 

But I didn't mean to cast doubt on who did or didn't win. I was simply using that as an example against some of the extremes people are going to on this whole yardage bit and rule breaking, or better yet as was the case with everything it's probably better to refer to it as rule bending because in none of the scenarios have rules officially been broken but that's also based on how one interprets the wording of the rules.


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## Outback Man

Daniel Boone said:


> The guy that got DQ ranged a target. It was 58yrds from his own words. Guys shot low with 54yrds. Dont think anyone assuming anything. Pros like Jame and Levi and others know if a target over 52yrds after the shot.
> DB


Again no disrespect to you or the fellow that for DQ'ed cause that had to of stunk but he was behind the stake...was he four yards behind it or five? Is his range finder like my buddy's and always 1.5 yds hot? Did he shoot from in front of, behind. Or straddling the stake? There is easily 2-5 yards of error room in that scenario which could make a 54 a 52 or less real quick.


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## cory2011

Outback Man said:


> Again no disrespect to you or the fellow that for DQ'ed cause that had to of stunk but he was behind the stake...was he four yards behind it or five? Is his range finder like my buddy's and always 1.5 yds hot? Did he shoot from in front of, behind. Or straddling the stake? There is easily 2-5 yards of error room in that scenario which could make a 54 a 52 or less real quick.


The target was ranged from behind the stake and behind the group. It was 58 from there. I figured I was 4 to 5 yards behind the stake my guess was it was 54. Read the post above and I wouldn't have to repeat myself.


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## hrtlnd164

Is it any wonder we can't grow the sport of archery. I don't believe there has been a National tournament, in either organization this year that there hasn't been pages of complaints about.
Finally we get a group of Pros that are trying to grow the sport and get it out to the public by having some on range filming done that shows what it is about and that you can still have some fun while competing at the highest levels. Immediately their form and safety concerns of their "sky drawing" come out. Then they are breaking rules with the binos and walking in front of the stake. Where does it end? We as a community are dragging this sport down with this stuff more than any outsiders. 
I don't like the fact that the max distance rules are not followed to a tee. But knowing that makes me shoot it for what I see, and believe me I am not on the level of judging that alot of guys are. That's my fault, I get out of it what I put in it. Honestly how many of us are going to call the group foul if someone checks a shot through their binocs as they leave the stake, or take 2 minutes and a couple seconds on a tough shot or a let down. I know the rules are there but how do you enforce them 100%? Maximum distances are in the rules as approximate, they give no variations for specs. So what is allowable? 2%, maybe 5%, it's not stated as to how much is allowable. Grey areas in rules will always cloud the options of rule enforcement.So who has all the answers? I don't even know what the questions are any more.


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## Daniel Boone

hrtlnd164 said:


> Is it any wonder we can't grow the sport of archery. I don't believe there has been a National tournament, in either organization this year that there hasn't been pages of complaints about.
> Finally we get a group of Pros that are trying to grow the sport and get it out to the public by having some on range filming done that shows what it is about and that you can still have some fun while competing at the highest levels. Immediately their form and safety concerns of their "sky drawing" come out. Then they are breaking rules with the binos and walking in front of the stake. Where does it end? We as a community are dragging this sport down with this stuff more than any outsiders.
> I don't like the fact that the max distance rules are not followed to a tee. But knowing that makes me shoot it for what I see, and believe me I am not on the level of judging that alot of guys are. That's my fault, I get out of it what I put in it. Honestly how many of us are going to call the group foul if someone checks a shot through their binocs as they leave the stake, or take 2 minutes and a couple seconds on a tough shot or a let down. I know the rules are there but how do you enforce them 100%? Maximum distances are in the rules as approximate, they give no variations for specs. So what is allowable? 2%, maybe 5%, it's not stated as to how much is allowable. Grey areas in rules will always cloud the options of rule enforcement.So who has all the answers? I don't even know what the questions are any more.


Who said archery not growing? Your in a bad economy and so far I'm real surprised how well it doing. 110 degrees in Metropolis and record high attendance. Talking and discussing these things will only bring improvement in the future. I read more good about this event than any other IBO event ever. We had movies that show archery in a good light. Nasp tournament set a all time record for attendnace and made the Guinness book for largest archery tournament ever envolving youth and thats the future. This honestly been a very good year. JMO!

DB


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## carlosii

tmorelli said:


> Boy, I'm starting to think people just come to AT looking for something to fight, gripe or whine about.


ding ding...we have a winner!


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## Daniel Boone

tmorelli said:


> Boy, I'm starting to think people just come to AT looking for something to fight, gripe or whine about.


There was a time no one ever discussed nothing. Some just never see the good here, all the bad!
DB


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## tmorelli

Daniel Boone said:


> There was a time no one ever discussed nothing. Some just never see the good here, all the bad!
> DB


I get it. I just wish we could weed out some of the stupidity. I've seen some real doozies in the last few days.

The vocal village idiots prevent the people we want to hear from from getting on here and just generally undermine any real positive impact these discussions might have.

Such is life.


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## Daniel Boone

tmorelli said:


> I get it. I just wish we could weed out some of the stupidity. I've seen some real doozies in the last few days.
> 
> The vocal village idiots prevent the people we want to hear from from getting on here and just generally undermine any real positive impact these discussions might have.
> 
> Such is life.


Need to be talking about how TMorelli got this Classic win in the bag! Man on fire this year.
DB


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## tmorelli

Daniel Boone said:


> Need to be talking about how TMorelli got this Classic win in the bag! Man on fire this year.
> DB


Please dont do that 

typed slowly and with many errors on this touchscreen.......


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## Outback Man

tmorelli said:


> Boy, I'm starting to think people just come to AT looking for something to fight, gripe or whine about.


Hopefully I'm not the one this was directed at, but if so then my intentions were missed and probably due to my own doings. It wasn' so much about fighting or whining as much as it was to question why we are so over critical about one aspect, but so much less about another somewhat similar one. 

Are we actually debating (sounds better than arguing/fighting doesn't it) the rules themselves, the intentions of the course setters, or our own interprations of the rules. It's like an argument w/my wife...it's been going on so long I forget what started it.


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## hrtlnd164

Daniel Boone said:


> Who said archery not growing? Your in a bad economy and so far I'm real surprised how well it doing. 110 degrees in Metropolis and record high attendance. Talking and discussing these things will only bring improvement in the future. I read more good about this event than any other IBO event ever. We had movies that show archery in a good light. Nasp tournament set a all time record for attendnace and made the Guinness book for largest archery tournament ever envolving youth and thats the future. This honestly been a very good year. JMO!
> 
> DB


My whole point DB is that the negativity is bringing us down. Focus on the positive. Everyone is blowing up about a rule that is defined as an approximate distance with no + or - variations stated. So technically there is no one who can say what the absolute max is. That's the grey area I spoke of. How do you enforce it?


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## Daniel Boone

hrtlnd164 said:


> My whole point DB is that the negativity is bringing us down. Focus on the positive. Everyone is blowing up about a rule that is defined as an approximate distance with no + or - variations stated. So technically there is no one who can say what the absolute max is. That's the grey area I spoke of. How do you enforce it?


 There far more being said good about this event and more should be saying it from what all I know attended are saying. Range finders are easy to use. Maybe just maybe next year with all this attention, Ill bet targets are not set pass the 3%. This thread wouldnt stop me from attending any shoot that was as good as this one. But it wouldnt sit well with me if I spent $600.00 and traveled three states and two targets over cost me points. JUst saying! Will say it again let me set the course and I wont set it long.
I can make it a challenge. No need to go long distance because honestly that will hurt attendance the next year more than anything.
DB


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## trumankayak

Daniel Boone said:


> Need to be talking about how TMorelli got this Classic win in the bag! Man on fire this year.
> DB


*JINXED JINXED JINXED*

:zip:


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## tmorelli

trumankayak said:


> *JINXED JINXED JINXED*
> 
> :zip:


That's what I was thinking:wink:

Too much respect for the other men who want to win and can win! I can beat myself any day of the week too!


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## trumankayak

Ive been out of the game for a while and just getting back in but this crying over maxxed targets has went on forever.
If you look at a target and ya think its 55 yards...You better shoot it for that.
If your going to use a 3 yard grace as insurance..Well its gonna bite you sooner or later.
Bottom line everyone shoots the same target. Be the smart one to shoot it for what it is and not rely on 'well 50 yds is max' Ill set my pin for 50.
If you bring a range-finder to a shoot that its illegal. Well your cheating or you have alzheimers and need medicated.
If your caught cheating you need punished.

And this garbage about someone taking a step forward of the stake...blah blah blah...
These are the same people that claim a pencil whips them at every shoot. Same people that always have equipment failure.
Always an excuse why they cant be at the top of the game.

So everybody put on your big-girl panties and just shoot. If you dont hit where you aim its your fault.
This was a public service announcement to keep feminine hygiene products out of the mens class.
If you dont have room in your quiver for tampons, you either belong at home or in the ladies class.


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## Alpha Burnt

I watched the video of Tim, Levi, Nathan and Chance. It looked like the defense course there to me. Was that filmed during the actual shoot? I wondered because Tim STARTED to bring up his bino's after his shot and caught himself.


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## ahcnc

What's the max for Unlimited in ASA?? 45 or 50yrds??:zip:


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## Leon Garfield

Well according to the rules I have the right to have it, as long as I don't use it.


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## tweeter196

Leon Garfield said:


> Well according to the rules I have the right to have it, as long as I don't use it.


What rules are you referring to? According to ibo 2012 rules they are prohibited. By my interpretation that would mean rangefinding devices not allowed on the course. However I am unfamiliar with ASA rules in case you meant ASA.

Fearless at the stake!!!!!


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## Daniel Boone

trumankayak said:


> *JINXED JINXED JINXED*
> 
> :zip:


Cant shake this archer. Ice water in those vanes. 
DB


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## Leon Garfield

Well it says cameras are prohibited to but with all the pictures we see posted they must be on the coarse to. Guess my interpretation would be unused for your shot. After the shot who really cares.


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## Logjamb

ahcnc said:


> What's the max for Unlimited in ASA?? 45 or 50yrds??:zip:


 Simple answer. What ever you judge target to be.


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## tweeter196

Leon Garfield said:


> Well it says cameras are prohibited to but with all the pictures we see posted they must be on the coarse to. Guess my interpretation would be unused for your shot. After the shot who really cares.


I would agree we will disagree on the interpretation. My range finder.stays in the truck whenever I am on the course. My opinion is they have no business on the course......the only cameras I have seen on course belonged to staff with the job of photographing events......not competitors.....thanks for your honesty though.....I will respect your opinion and interpretation.....

Fearless at the stake!!!!!


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## ahcnc

Logjamb said:


> Simple answer. What ever you judge target to be.


As it should be!!! Thank you for the ONLY answer my friend!!! I'm going back outside to shoot my bow now....


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## Deer Slayer I

for once i agree with db max is max todays range finders are spot on noexecuses and like db said you can make a course very challenging within those yardarges!


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## Daniel Boone

Perfect example of tough course and only 45yrds max. Really short course. Chad Hilburn set this range.

11 up was high ASA score. Jame Jamison. (Hoyt Pro) Look at the range you see you never got ground or a full look at the target. Very tough judging.

http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=1792882


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