# Longbow Practice



## lonewolf88 (Feb 22, 2016)

I am by no means new to hunting or the bow, I am a natural. (Not Robin Hood or Fred Bear level yet.) Even after years of being away from archery, I took a 45 pound recurve with a friend and hit 3 for 3, no misses. Question is, how much would I have to practice with my 50 pound longbow before I am good enough to hunt with it? Theres always need for a hunting partner too. Especially with wild boar.


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## Hank D Thoreau (Dec 9, 2008)

3 for 3 at what distance and with what size spot? If you shoot 100 arrows, how big of a group do you make? It is important to know where you really are to assess what you need to get to where you want to be. You mention that you are a natural. Maybe so. But what are you using as a reference?


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## lonewolf88 (Feb 22, 2016)

Not sure about your second question, but it was within the upper target at about 10 or 15 meters.


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## Bowmania (Jan 3, 2003)

Nobody can answer that question with that kind of information.

Bowmania


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## Easykeeper (Jan 2, 2003)

lonewolf88 said:


> I am by no means new to hunting or the bow, I am a natural. (Not Robin Hood or Fred Bear level yet.) Even after years of being away from archery, I took a 45 pound recurve with a friend and hit 3 for 3, no misses. Question is, how much would I have to practice with my 50 pound longbow before I am good enough to hunt with it? Theres always need for a hunting partner too. Especially with wild boar.


Seeing as you're a natural there's little need for practice.


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## Hank D Thoreau (Dec 9, 2008)

What I was asking is if you shoot many arrows, I used 100 as an example, what size group do you get? Three arrows is not a good indicator. Where I am heading with this is, are you in learning/development mode or maintenance mode? It takes a different amount of practice for each. If you are already hitting everything you are shooting at, then you may be in maintenance mode. My question regarding what you are using as a reference means, who, or what standard, are you measuring against when you say you are a natural? Still just trying to figure out where you are. Not many folks get on here claiming to be naturals.


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## maddog20/20 (Oct 13, 2015)

lonewolf88 said:


> I am by no means new to hunting or the bow, I am a natural.


Probably not the opening statement you want to use on a forum of archers....just sayin'


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## Thin Man (Feb 18, 2012)

Lone, 

The honest answer is that there really isn't a time-line for accuracy that is predictable in advance. 

You'll have to practice until you can fairly consistently hit within the kill-zone of your intended quarry at all the multiple distances (both near and far) that you will possibly be taking these shots. 

As with a clarinet, you need to practice until you can play the music properly with the band. How much practice, and over what time period, is determined by you. A massive amount of studied practice on a near-daily basis will move one along differently than a bit of practice weekly. This regimen will be unique to you, and as you find your shots finally performing their magic within your hunting projections, you'll then be able to determine when the time is ripe to hunt your game.

I wish I could be less vague on this subject. It's an individual journey that must be undertaken and experienced in order to answer your own question - and only then in hindsight.

Good luck.


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## Trimf (May 15, 2015)

I was hunting rabbits with my first longbow within a coupler of weeks of buying it.
But I didn't hunt big game with it for around two years.
You'd think that if you can take rabbits at 20 yards you would also be able to take big game at the same distances.
But there's this mind set thing and everybody is different.
You simply can't put time frames on this game.

John.


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## CAPTJJ (Dec 24, 2007)

Easykeeper said:


> Seeing as you're a natural there's little need for practice.


Too funny.


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## MCROW (Oct 9, 2015)

Oh...Lordy. 

This is how most guys that go out and shoot a deer in the ass their first time out sound when describing how good a shot they are.

Hell, I'm not a great shot yet and the first time I shot a recurve I hit 3 of 5 in something the size of coffee can from about 20 yards. My next 95 shots were not all as good as those though.


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## steve morley (Dec 24, 2005)

We shoot and we all hit 100% of the time, where you intended to hit and at what distance is the key question here. If for instance you shot a 3D Deer at 30 yards and hit the vitals 3 out of 3 that would be an impressive start but just saying 3 out of 3 hits says nothing.

Get a NFAA Indoor face, shoot 60 arrows at 20y and post your score (it's a benchmark we all understand), after this round you will know yourself very quickly you're a natural or not. :thumbs_up


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## Kris_H_97 (Sep 2, 2011)

Well, I've been shooting a recurve for exactly a week. At ten yards I have put three arrows in the circle a few times, but then I'll have on my next three shots 3 arrows that would miss the broadside of a barn from the inside. Gotta agree with whats been stated above, three arrows isn't a good baseline measurement.


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## kegan (Aug 28, 2006)

Try an NFAA blue face. Target shooting might not sound like it has much to do with hunting, but if you can consistently score in the 240 range at 20 yards you're going to be on the right track for tackling big game.


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## lonewolf88 (Feb 22, 2016)

As of now, I have no arrows for this longbow. Hopefully, Ill have range time with some friends this weekend. Ill let you know my results.


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## BowArkie (Jan 11, 2011)

Easykeeper said:


> Seeing as you're a natural there's little need for practice.


Well said


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## lonewolf88 (Feb 22, 2016)

When I said Im a natural, I meant it feels natural and I never forgot how to shoot the longbow/recurve/shortbow. Theres always need for practice.


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## Dalton63841 (Oct 26, 2013)

Haha don't worry. Poor wording is always a source of entertainment on the internet... Truth is, we can't tell you how much or how long you need to practice. Different people progress at different rates, and different people have different rules defining "good enough to hunt".

My step-dad for instance, is happy to hunt as long as he can put 10 consecutive arrows inside a "pie pan" at 20yds. I on the other hand, am more restrictive. I'm not comfortable being in the woods yet, and won't be until I can consistently put arrows in a 6" circle at 30yds. Right now I have about a 9" grouping at 15yds, so I've got a long way to go LOL.


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## Forager (Feb 9, 2016)

lonewolf88 said:


> When I said Im a natural, I meant it feels natural and I never forgot how to shoot the longbow/recurve/shortbow. Theres always need for practice.


So, you feel like everyone else when they pick up a bow? Great. Shooting a bow is instinctive; everyone knows how to do it, even if they never have done it.


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## MCROW (Oct 9, 2015)

IMO if you get good enough that you can hit a paper plate 8-9 of 10 times at 20-25 yards you are good to go for deer. Probably OK for Turkey as well at 15 or so.


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## Ringlight (May 5, 2015)

MCROW said:


> IMO if you get good enough that you can hit a paper plate 8-9 of 10 times at 20-25 yards you are good to go for deer. Probably OK for Turkey as well at 15 or so.


I think you'll need to be a little more accurate than that due to the excitement of the hunt.


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## AZwatasha (Jun 3, 2013)

practice practice practice, you'll have good days and bad days, the more you practice, the fewer bad days you will have. but you will always have a bad day :wink:


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## Wolfpack27 (Oct 4, 2015)

I subscribe to Jason Samkowiak's theory about hunting with the trad bow. The question is not when you can start hunting but at what distance are you going to take the shot (paraphrasing). Most people can ethically execute a 3 yard shot. If that is the range you are proficient at, then that is the range you restrict your shots to. 

Get out and hunt. Know your limits, be honest with yourself and be ethical. Have more respect for the animal you are pursing than the praise of others. Hunting sometimes encompasses killing, but killing is not hunting.


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## BMXnSLED (Jan 25, 2016)

No time frame. Go when you feel your ready to take on big game but REALLY ready, not just cause you had a good day at the range and decided to go hunting next morning, do it with respect for the animal. I hunt, trap, fish, you name it at all times of the year and I still feel remorse whenever I take game big or small whether its quick with a rifle or not. I personally don't see it as a sport or hobby but as a lifestyle.

I'm by know means trying to grasshopper you though cause im still a young grasshopper myself lol and you say your not new to hunting anyways. All I mean is it should be something YOU feel comfortable with. Not something any other person can tell you whether it be on a forum or even from the mouth of someone you look up to/respect.


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## lonewolf88 (Feb 22, 2016)

Here is some of the better shots from earlier today.


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## kegan (Aug 28, 2006)

How far were you shooting?


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## walker614 (Dec 21, 2013)

Take your target outside. Place it among the bushes and trees. Walk around to different yardage and angles and take a shot, a single shot. When you can put an arrow in the kill zone everytime you'll be ready to hunt. Deer rarely come out full broadside in the open and stand there for you to make sure everything is right and get a good shot off. Would not hurt to run a bit to get your heart rate up and simulate buck fever either. 

Genesis 27:3 
Now then, get your equipment---your quiver and bow---and go out to the open country to hunt some wild game for me.


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## Longbowfanatic (Mar 5, 2016)

Whatever the distance was that you shot those groups from, just move forward until you can keep all your arrows in the forward two/thirds of the 8 ring (preferably the 10 ring). When you find that distance, I would limit my hunting to that distance.


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## davidflorida (Jun 21, 2012)

Do the animal a favor and don't try hunting till u can put all your arrows in the kill zone . 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Xcalibur3z (Sep 14, 2015)

This is going to need to tighten up to take an animal ethically dont you think?


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## Hank D Thoreau (Dec 9, 2008)

lonewolf88 said:


> Here is some of the better shots from earlier today.
> View attachment 3919321
> 
> 
> View attachment 3919329


You missed a few spots. I think you need to divulge your true experience. You are a natural. You hit three for three. But you are all over the place on that target, and these are your best shots. You don't have any arrows. I am starting to wonder whether this is a legit thread. There is no problem just starting out, but you have to let us know. What did you really do many years ago when you used to shoot? Did you really study archery or just fling arrows around?


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## lonewolf88 (Feb 22, 2016)

@ longbow fanatic and kegan. Id say about 15-20 meters. 

To everyone else, this is my first time shooting my 50 pound Longbow. Using wooden arrows too. 

Hank, I really studied archery, but it was modern crossbow and compound years ago. True, medieval style longbow is entirely different. 

Not to mention, my left hand got cut up from the feather fletchings. I don't really need a brace, but I do need a pair of hardened leather gloves atleast. 

Bow at full draw.


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## lonewolf88 (Feb 22, 2016)

As far as hunting goes, with my plans, before any hunt ensues; 1, I need a hunting partner with atleast a .357 magnum on their side and knows the land/terrain of NC better than me. Two, I need more practice with my bow. I definitely will not feel comfortable doing any hunt alone. Be it my first dangerous hunt, bear, cougar, wild boar or simply turkey and deer.


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## lonewolf88 (Feb 22, 2016)

Hank, a considerate amount of time has passed since I made that statement regarding no arrows on February 23rd. It didn't take long to order and receive arrows from 3 rivers archery.


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## lonewolf88 (Feb 22, 2016)

Does music help or distract? Considering listening to Ted Nugents-Fred Bear.


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## Hank D Thoreau (Dec 9, 2008)

You are considerably over bowed. You are not even close to getting to your anchor point, as such, you are not getting within four inches or more of full draw. Your entire fist is in front of your face and it looks like you have a death grip on the string. To be at full draw you need to get to anchor and get your shoulders aligned down the target line. The latter is about one to one and a half inches more than just getting to anchor. Basically, the weight of the bow is pulling your bow arm forward. I would say that you need to drop at least twenty pounds off your bow, probably more if you really want to learn. You might also consider getting rid of the wood arrows for now. Wood arrows take a lot of time and skill in order to create and maintain a consistent set. Learn with a set of aluminum and carbon arrows. If your develop adequate competency, experiment with wood. There are some knowledgeable wood shooters here. I shoot wood but do not like to tinker with arrows, so I buy from a very good arrow maker, and even then, they are not like the arrows good wood shooters make for themselves.


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## lonewolf88 (Feb 22, 2016)

I am not sure I will get another bow for a good while. Too much to tend to. I will not go lower than 40. Either I get a woodworker or woodsman mentor to show me how to make my own bow or the next bow I get will not be until December. Scythian bow (horse bow/shortbow/traditional recurve) at 40. 

I will just get the hardened leather gloves and practice more. No sense in going under the minimum hunting draw weight. 

I think the main issue was getting my bow hand (left) cut up and my draw hand was getting tired by one or 2 pm that day. 

Plus, my wood arrows are suited for my bow. spine weight of 50-55 pounds. I don't know if carbon and aluminum arrows require spine weight or not and I sure don't want to make the mistake of getting some, ill-informed and ending up with metal in my hand or face. 

Why are fletchings so damn tiny on carbon and aluminum arrows anyway? Are there no full-sized modern arrow fletchings?

Also, that picture was just a demo. That is not my actual form. It was just for a club shoot page. Not to mention, I had to hold the bow longer than I would shooting. Longbows and Recurves are not meant for long periods at full draw.


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## Hank D Thoreau (Dec 9, 2008)

I think you need to find a competent teacher if you can find one. It really sounds like you need more attention that you can get here. Look at getting the book "Shooting the Stickbow" written by Viper1 on this forum. It will answer a lot of your questions. I think you definitely need to learn more about your gear, arrows included.

Also, I am concerned that you say longbows and recurves are not meant for long periods at full draw. Not sure what you mean by long periods. You don't want to snap shoot, but holding for several seconds is normal for a good shooter.

I am not trying to be harsh here, but you really need relook at your preconceived notions about archery. Get the recommended book. It will help in many ways.


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## lonewolf88 (Feb 22, 2016)

Long periods of time= one or two minutes or longer as compound bow users do in Olympics or sometimes hunting. Then again, compounds have relief/let-off, so you aren't holding 40-50 pounds at full draw. Recurve and longbow, you are.


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## kegan (Aug 28, 2006)

Going below the hunting minimum will be the only way to really learn how to shoot. There are a lot of aspects of how you're shooting that really should be addressed if you want to get to the point where you can cleanly and ethically harvest deer.

If you can, just get "Shooting the Stickbow". It will help clear up a lot of issues you might be having.


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## Hank D Thoreau (Dec 9, 2008)

I have never seen any archer, compound or otherwise, that holds one to two minutes. 10 seconds would be a lot. You need to understand what a shot cycle encompasses if you are going to learn. "Shooting the Stickbow" will describe that. I am going to assume that you are miss-speaking, but still, it sounds like you need a lot of help and that is where the book comes in. You need a single authoritative source for information on archery. Treat this as constructive help. You can't get better if you don't know what better is supposed to look like, and I really think you don't at this point.


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## maddog20/20 (Oct 13, 2015)

lonewolf88 said:


> @ longbow fanatic and kegan. Id say about 15-20 meters.
> 
> To everyone else, this is my first time shooting my 50 pound Longbow. Using wooden arrows too.
> 
> ...


Sorry, big guy. That is about 5 inches short of full draw. At full draw, you should have your middle finger tucked into the corner of your mouth(ish)...and do you have all 4 fingers inside the string?

That aside, you said that there's "no sense" in going below hunting threshold and that's completely false. It's like saying there's no point to trying to bench press less than what you'll need to compete. You have to BUILD to that draw weight and there's no shame in that. 50# is a HELL of a lot of starting draw weight for ANYONE. That's not a reflection on you, it's the fact that it requires so much power to pull and maintain a smooth draw and release that you're not able to concentrate on form and form with traditional is EVERYTHING. Consistent anchor point, smooth consistent release, smooth level draw...there's a lot to it beyond just "being strong enough to pull it."

Constructive criticism from a guy that started with too much bow. It took a hell of a lot of arrows and videoing myself to get a comfortable consistent draw and release and I STILL sometimes get a sloppy release.


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## maddog20/20 (Oct 13, 2015)

Hank D Thoreau said:


> I have never seen any archer, compound or otherwise, that holds one to two minutes. 10 seconds would be a lot. You need to understand what a shot cycle encompasses if you are going to learn. "Shooting the Stickbow" will describe that. I am going to assume that you are miss-speaking, but still, it sounds like you need a lot of help and that is where the book comes in. You need a single authoritative source for information on archery. Treat this as constructive help. You can't get better if you don't know what better is supposed to look like, and I really think you don't at this point.



I must have missed that part, but why on Earth would someone hold a bow that long? Why would you even WANT to? If you're that unsteady or have target panic, you've got bigger issues than how long you can hold your bow.

I hold mine about 3 seconds or so at full draw at MOST. That would be the longest 1-2 minutes of a person's life, I would imagine.


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## millerman715 (Nov 25, 2015)

My two cents (going off the pictures) would be keep shooting until you can consistently pack a group in the vitals at 15 Yards (and the same goes for practice from a tree stand or elevated surface if you plan to hunt from above)

Good Luck!


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## lonewolf88 (Feb 22, 2016)

Ok, once again, the picture was just for show, display or demo, whatever you consider it as. I just wanted a picture of me with my bow drawn. The picture posted most recently, is not my full draw at 28 inches. Nor is it my shooting form. Notice the finger curled on or supporting the arrow, locking it in place. I shoot entirely different. A display/demo picture of a bow or even firearm will be entirely different from firing form. 

As far as the draw weight, I can handle 50 pounds. I am not weak and don't need a childs or womans bow. If a 240 pound man can swing a maul or modern sledgehammer with ease, then an 170 pound man, like myself, can handle a 50 pound longbow. 

As far as practice goes, what could I use for turkey practice? Would an apple or pear be sufficient to simulate a turkey head?
Its one thing to practice for bear/deer/wild boar, but another for wild turkey.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kYiqHSPg64E This reinforces my statement about compounds. She stayed at full draw for nearly two minutes. Watch starting at 1:57. 

Maybe I made the mistake of posting the demo photo. Ill post my shooting form next time. 

By the way, I am a stalker and traditionalist. No more compounds ever. I do not hunt in blinds or stands. 

Also, hunting is usually just one to three shots, depending on the limit and situation. 

During the last practice, I shot roughly fifty times with bare hands. As I said, I had to stop around 2 pm due to my hand getting cut too much. 

Like the archers of old, I need hardened or reinforced leather gloves. Draw weight isn't an issue for me. Ill get better as I practice. Besides, 50 pounds is fine to restart on. Its not like I am starting with an 80-200 pound warbow. Those took years of training anyway. Ill have a lot more free time during Summer to practice on. 

Main issue is getting to the range often enough. I do not have a vehicle. Certainly not wasting 120-200 dollars on a 30-35 pound bow. Nearest range is 10.9 miles away.


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## lonewolf88 (Feb 22, 2016)

Maddog, if your statement was made for a 28 inch draw length, then I still have 42-45 pounds at 23 inches roughly. More than enough to take down a white tail or boar. Good thing about a longbow or recurve/shortbow is you don't need to do full draw for every shot. It depends on what you are hunting. Id use blunts and only draw to 20 inches if I was hunting a rabbit or small game.


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## Hank D Thoreau (Dec 9, 2008)

Take a video from the side of you shooting. It is best to bring the camera in so that you are showing waste up and so that the arrow tip and draw shoulder can be seen through the entire shot cycle. You can also post one that shows your full body,

but not so far away that details are difficult to see. 

We need to see your real form so we know, definitively, what is going on with your shot. There is something because you are spraying arrows all over the place. The arrows could be an issue. Wood is hard, and you cannot just size them by the marked weight range. There is more to tuning arrows than that.

It seems you have already decided what the answer is so I am not sure what you are looking for. 

You don't learn how to perform a proper squat by loading up a heavy bar. You start with a bar with no plates, no matter how strong you are...and we hear this strong story all the time.

There are many on this forum that started like you and regret that they had to struggle to relearn, or have never been able to relearn. You have to decide whether you want to follow the advise you asked for, or just do it your way. 

If you are not willing to listen, then I am not sure why you are asking.


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## lonewolf88 (Feb 22, 2016)

My video mail duration limit isn't long. 50 seconds. I will try to get out to the range again next week. Anyone here in NC, hickory area?


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## walker614 (Dec 21, 2013)

Let go of the ego. I practice all the time with a 22 pound bow. I am 6'3 270lbs, I shoot a 70 lb compound all day, but I still practice traditional with a 22 lb bow so that I get my form down and I get my instinct feel. I start at 10 yards until I can get 5 arrows in a 5 in. circle. Then move back 5 yards and do it again. 
Remember practice doesn't make perfect, perfect practice makes perfect. And it takes a LONG time to get perfect at traditional archery and I admit and know I am a LONG way from perfect. 

Genesis 27:3 
Now then, get your equipment---your quiver and bow---and go out to the open country to hunt some wild game for me.


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## kegan (Aug 28, 2006)

lonewolf88 said:


> Main issue is getting to the range often enough. I do not have a vehicle. Certainly not wasting 120-200 dollars on a 30-35 pound bow. Nearest range is 10.9 miles away.


You can master the basics of what it takes to become an excellent shot with a $3 stick of PVC (or a simple selfbow made with a hatchet) and a target in your basement set up at 3 yards. This is not a jest.

The main issue seems to be a number of misconceptions you harbor and an unwillingness to accept that there are better ways to go about what you're doing. You don't have to practice these methods, but you need to at least acknowledge that there are a lot of people here far more knowledgeable offering some seriously solid advice.

It really comes down to what you really want out of archery. Do you want to get to where you can consistently fill the freezer with nothing more than a selfbow and wooden arrow? If so, take a step back and do some reading. If you just want to enjoy flinging some arrows how you are, and there's nothing wrong with that, have at it. Just don't try to justify that what you're doing is the "proper" way to do it. You're making things much harder on yourself by being so unwilling to listen. I wasted five years doing exactly what you're doing. I was stubborn and pigheaded and I wasted a lot of time and missed a ton of game. I decided I wanted to start eating deer though, and for the last five years I've filled the freezer with nothing more than a handcrafted longbow because I took everyone's advice and I worked on the basics.


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## maddog20/20 (Oct 13, 2015)

walker614 said:


> Let go of the ego. I practice all the time with a 22 pound bow. I am 6'3 270lbs, I shoot a 70 lb compound all day, but I still practice traditional with a 22 lb bow so that I get my form down and I get my instinct feel. I start at 10 yards until I can get 5 arrows in a 5 in. circle. Then move back 5 yards and do it again.
> Remember practice doesn't make perfect, perfect practice makes perfect. And it takes a LONG time to get perfect at traditional archery and I admit and know I am a LONG way from perfect.
> 
> Genesis 27:3
> Now then, get your equipment---your quiver and bow---and go out to the open country to hunt some wild game for me.


That's what I did when I got my recurve. I shot at 10yds until I could put 3 inside of a dixie cup (a trick I learned from Grizzly Jim on Merlin's youtube page) and then back up to 15 until I could do the same.

I also spent a ton of time videoing myself from the side (got a cool tripod for my phone) and watched them over and over. Like you, I'm far from perfect, but I'm getting to where I can feel my mistake as soon as I loose the arrow. Tweaking my bow hand, plucking the string...a hundred little things that seem so small until you see your arrow 10 inches from where you were aiming and realize that would have been a missed dear or even WORSE, a gut shot where they die horribly and you essentially ruined the meat anyway. I'm 6', 220lb pretty beefy lad and I wasn't gonna "shoot a lady's bow power" either and that was simply a testosterone driven mistake. It's ONLY because I'm kind of nuts about form that I was willing to look at my shooting and tear it apart soup to nuts.

There's really no place for ego for a beginning traditional archer. I learned that pretty quick after my somewhat inflated ego was subjected to the prison shower scene of your first shooting session where you miss the entire friggin' target at 15yds whereas you were nailing a 6" circle at 70yds the day before with your compound.

Lonewolf, clearly you've got it all figured out and what you don't, you aren't interested in hearing from us about (a natural and whatnot) so maybe it's just better to do it your way and just keep us posted on your progress? You mentioned posting a video, but would you actually listen to the criticisms? Not beating you up, just not sure what you're looking for. I mean, welcome to the family and all, but the best advice I can give you is that there are many on here that are experts at this stuff (I ain't one of 'em) and it's a shame to dismiss the wisdom they offer.

I'm damned sure not!


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## walker614 (Dec 21, 2013)

Well said. 

Genesis 27:3 
Now then, get your equipment---your quiver and bow---and go out to the open country to hunt some wild game for me.


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## Ranger (Jan 26, 2003)

This thread is getting funny!


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## steve morley (Dec 24, 2005)

If you're on a tight budget look on YouTube on how to make a PVC bow for $10-20, you can make a 30# bow just for Form work.


I watched that video of the woman hunting, nearly 2 min at full draw with a Compound, she had no control over that Bow, you would have to be superhuman to hold that long and still be accurate with a single string bow.

If your preparing to hunt then first learn to shoot in ideal Form position and then learn to shoot from less than ideal shooting positions, use your imagination to create tricky shooting situations to see if you can maintain the same level of accuracy, doing this gives you the confidence you can make any shot in any situation. Most important thing, have fun shooting.

I'm on my knees during this video.


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## steve morley (Dec 24, 2005)

If you're on a tight budget look on YouTube on how to make a PVC bow for $10-20, you can make a 30# bow just for Form work.


I watched that video of the woman hunting, nearly 2 min at full draw with a Compound, she had no control over that Bow, you would have to be superhuman to hold that long and still be accurate with a single string bow.

If your preparing to hunt then first learn to shoot in ideal Form position and then learn to shoot from less than ideal shooting positions, use your imagination to create tricky shooting situations to see if you can maintain the same level of accuracy, doing this gives you the confidence you can make any shot in any situation. Most important thing, have fun shooting.

I'm on my knees during this video.


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## MT Kevin (Oct 13, 2006)

A lot more practice. I started shooting a longbow last spring. In the beginning I was shooting groups similar to yours. I shot every day for as long as it was comfortable. It takes work to improve. I shot gophers every day after work. Should read shot AT gophers for a while before I ever hit one. By the end of summer I was hitting them on a regular basis and if I missed it wasn't by much. I learned my effective range and knew how far I could accurately shoot. By the time hunting season opened I was very comfortable and confident. If you shoot enough you'll learn when the shot feels right and pass the shots that don't feel right. Shoot as much as you comfortably can. If you get tired walk away for a bit. I think it's better to take 20 good shots than 100 bad shots. Try to end on a good group and then focus on what went right and do that over and over again.


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## BarneySlayer (Feb 28, 2009)

lonewolf88 said:


> I am not sure I will get another bow for a good while. Too much to tend to. I will not go lower than 40. Either I get a woodworker or woodsman mentor to show me how to make my own bow or the next bow I get will not be until December. Scythian bow (horse bow/shortbow/traditional recurve) at 40.


It sounds like you're approaching this as a collector. That's okay, but it's not the best way to learn how to shoot well.



> I will just get the hardened leather gloves and practice more. No sense in going under the minimum hunting draw weight.


If you're collecting, sure. If you want to learn to shoot well, there's a whole lot of sense in it.



> I think the main issue was getting my bow hand (left) cut up and my draw hand was getting tired by one or 2 pm that day.


If you draw hand is getting tired, you are really, intensely, doing it wrong. I would suggest you spend $20, Shooting the Stickbow, by Anthony Camera. Available from Lancaster Archery, or Amazon.



> Plus, my wood arrows are suited for my bow. spine weight of 50-55 pounds. I don't know if carbon and aluminum arrows require spine weight or not and I sure don't want to make the mistake of getting some, ill-informed and ending up with metal in my hand or face.


This statement implies that you don't know what 'suited for my bow' actually means.



> Why are fletchings so damn tiny on carbon and aluminum arrows anyway? Are there no full-sized modern arrow fletchings?


You can put feathers on pretty much anything.



> Also, that picture was just a demo. That is not my actual form. It was just for a club shoot page. Not to mention, I had to hold the bow longer than I would shooting. Longbows and Recurves are not meant for long periods at full draw.


If that's not your actual form, why did you post it? What do you consider a long period? If your form is correct, holding a 50# bow long enough to take a picture isn't exactly a big deal.

This bow, at her draw length, is about 42#. In that picture, she had not yet discovered the virtues of strength conditioning, and weighed all of about 115 lbs. She could hold that bow at full draw for 20 seconds, no problem. During shooting, she typically spent about 3-4 seconds at anchor.









Similarly, on the left, 60# bow, about 61 1/2# at draw length. Similar, though I probably hold a little longer shooting, and I'm not a huge behemoth. It's not a strength thing, it's about technique. Even so, I still shoot more consistently, and opted to drop a lot of draw weight for the sake of developing and maintaining form.


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## maddog20/20 (Oct 13, 2015)

It's weird. I keep getting alerts that there are new posts, but my last post has been #50 for a while. Maybe I got kicked out of the discussion?


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## Hank D Thoreau (Dec 9, 2008)

Adding this as a test to see if the missing posts show up. The last post I can see is #50 and this is post #59. There is something going on with the database. I am able to see the missing post if I make a post, like this, then edit it. They do not show up until I edit the post I just made. This is what maddgo20/20 is seeing as well.


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## tmv (Mar 5, 2014)

maddog20/20 said:


> That's what I did when I got my recurve. I shot at 10yds until I could put 3 inside of a dixie cup (a trick I learned from Grizzly Jim on Merlin's youtube page) and then back up to 15 until I could do the same.
> 
> 
> im just starting trad myself (maybe a month ago) and had planned to do this but currently im only able to shoot 2 days a week, and has to be at 20yds since there is always other folks at the range.
> pretty consistent getting all arrows in a NFAA target, now working on bringing them into the white. If I can only practice at 1 distance though I see lots of lost arrows for 3d shoots


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## lonewolf88 (Feb 22, 2016)

If anyone is in NC, please check my archery practice thread.


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## oldmand (Aug 18, 2015)

Is lonewolf88 perhaps yanking our chains? If he's a "natural", then I'm Howard and Fred all rolled into one.


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## lonewolf88 (Feb 22, 2016)

Sighs. I already explained what I meant by that. I am seeking a range friend btw.


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## lonewolf88 (Feb 22, 2016)

On an unrelated note, I stepped out for a smoke break and I got 1 to 3 feet from a rabbit. Too bad I don't have my bow, and its in the city as well as rabbit season being closed or I would have had myself a rabbit for stew.


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## Bowsage (Apr 29, 2008)

TurkeyBowMaster!!!!


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## Hank D Thoreau (Dec 9, 2008)

Let's take it easy on lonewolf. Time to hit the reset button and give him another chance.


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## lonewolf88 (Feb 22, 2016)

Be advised, I cannot promise these videos will be of quality when I upload them. Uploading a picture from today first, then attempting to upload my videos so you see my form and my full draw.


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## MiStickSlinger (Mar 15, 2013)

I have to agree with the poster who said to let go of the ego. It's going to be hard to see improvement if you dismiss the good advice people are giving. Say what you want about "handling" a certain draw weight, this isn't a compound bow. I used to say the same thing when I first started trad. I'm a big dude, I wrestled heavyweight for a little in college and played football semi pro and was involved in powerlifting for a number of years and have no bad injuries. I shot 80-100lb compounds from the time I was 17. I made the mistake of going out and buying a 60lb recurve. After a long while of frustration I swallowed my pride and ordered a set of 40lb limbs... that was the best investment I made. Within MINUTES I saw huge improvements. You're doing more harm than good if you can't get that string back to your face. Buy a cheapy recurve, anything light to work on proper form, when you can group with that then transfer what you've learned to a heavier bow.


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## lonewolf88 (Feb 22, 2016)

(Is there any way to simply upload videos without going through sign ups on other sites. I just want to show my form.)


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## lonewolf88 (Feb 22, 2016)

https://vimeo.com/161473680

https://vimeo.com/161473771


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## kegan (Aug 28, 2006)

If your goal is to hunt, you're going to need to clean your shooting up. You're not consistent yet. At that distance all your arrows should at least be on the turkey (which is still bigger than the vitals on a deer). Otherwise you're either going to spend a lot of time missing, or worse, wounding animals. 

Couple things that stand out: first, you don't appear to have any finger protection. That might be why you have such an erratic pluck, which you'll want to address. Second, you appear to be trying to "throw" the arrow with the bow. Hold it still until the arrow hits the mark. If you can't, you're going to have to drop down in draw weight and work on your form. 

Speaking of draw weight, if you're worried about a lighter bow "not being enough" that would indicate you're worried about things not going well. That's a good mentality. To that I will add: address your accuracy first, because more animals have been lost with bad shots than with too little power in the right spot.

Here's a photo of one of the first tabs I made back in high school. It's just a scrap of leather. I still use tabs like this, only now with two layers of leather and made for three under. Takes about five minutes to make and will allow you to focus on the shot.


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## lippencotte (Apr 22, 2015)

Ringlight said:


> I think you'll need to be a little more accurate than that due to the excitement of the hunt.


Seems to me the excitement ( adrenaline ) of the hunt might have some bearing on accuracy too. I still find people talking next to me at the range a bit distracting, but I'm working on ignoring them.


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## maddog20/20 (Oct 13, 2015)

lonewolf88 said:


> https://vimeo.com/161473680
> 
> https://vimeo.com/161473771


Maybe it's just me, but a few things I'm noticing (don't know if you care) is that you seem to be plucking at the string which may be part of the culprit with your arrows not grouping well and you're dropping your bow hand as soon as you release and almost seem to be throwing the bow forward (also affecting your group). It also seems that you're snap shooting, but you could just be that good at aiming on the draw (I'm not).

I don't know if you're actually LOOKING for advice or if you just wanted to put up a video to prove you're drawing all the way back, but....

1) Get a lower poundage bow JUST FOR FORM PRACTICE (not because you can't pull it)
2) I'd get finger protection
3) Work on a smooth release moving your hand back along the plane of the string (maybe a two anchor point method?)
4) Develop a bit of a timed shot cycle (what I do is find my spot, draw, anchor, count to two and release - I did this over and over and over until it was part of my muscle memory) to help with snap shooting

Just some small stuff I noticed. If your turkey pix showed all of the arrows in the 10 ring, I wouldn't offer it because clearly your style would be working, but with one in the foot, one in the spine and one in the arse, perhaps there are some things you could do better.


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## lonewolf88 (Feb 22, 2016)

Yes, I have been shooting bare handed. As a traditionalist, I prefer to keep things as close to the medieval period as possible. Seeking a hardened leather archery glove or reinforced leather. Main issue that I felt this time was my bow arm being hit by the string. Last month, the issue was the feather fletchings cutting up my bow hand (left hand). 

With no vehicle and a limited budget along with no room at home to practice daily or weekly, its hard to get as much practice in as I want. The club I belong to is 12 miles away and people only come once a month, though members can go there at any time. Ideally, I would like to get a range buddy or hunting partner that will give me the opportunity to practice more often. I really don't like being limited to one practice session every 30-31 days. 

I do plan on hunting with my longbow and already got one carbon arrowshaft and 3 100 grain fixed broadheads. 

I do not have any Woodsman skill or experience yet. I am looking for a mentor though. Woodsman being mainly forester (gathering wood and hide) and woodworker but also tailor. An experienced Woodsman can identify trees/wood types, gather and cure hide into leather, make their own bows and arrows. 

Just one question. Do you have to shoot for the head to kill a turkey with a bow or can you do a spine shot from the rear or side of a turkey?

(Luckily this auto-saved, got cut off earlier and was not able to post.)


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## lonewolf88 (Feb 22, 2016)

To my knowledge, I am following through upon release and yes, I suspect an adrenaline fueled shooting form since turkey season here is so close, 6 days to season opening, I do agree I may have to try calming myself down a bit instead of shooting with an archers mindset. Rate of fire is currently 5 missiles a minute, since one broke at the tip this past Saturday due to the sheep target falling on the arrow after a hit.


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## lonewolf88 (Feb 22, 2016)

Also, why does it seem I am the only one tilting my bow as I draw? Is it just because I shoot a medieval style longbow and don't like or use modern compounds or modern recurves with risers? I don't see my same form in any prior picture or video before mine.


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## MiStickSlinger (Mar 15, 2013)

lonewolf88 said:


> Yes, I have been shooting bare handed. As a traditionalist, I prefer to keep things as close to the medieval period as possible. Seeking a hardened leather archery glove or reinforced leather. Main issue that I felt this time was my bow arm being hit by the string. Last month, the issue was the feather fletchings cutting up my bow hand (left hand).
> 
> With no vehicle and a limited budget along with no room at home to practice daily or weekly, its hard to get as much practice in as I want. The club I belong to is 12 miles away and people only come once a month, though members can go there at any time. Ideally, I would like to get a range buddy or hunting partner that will give me the opportunity to practice more often. I really don't like being limited to one practice session every 30-31 days.
> 
> ...


If once a month is all you can practice, you seriously need to go back to a compound or a shotgun for turkeys.


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## lonewolf88 (Feb 22, 2016)

Again, if I had someone as serious and adamant about archery somewhat closeby in NC with a vehicle, I would be practicing daily or weekly. Like I said, I hate only getting one chance to practice a month. I love archery, I literally would be shooting every single day if the opportunity arose. 300-900 dollars for a ****in ugly compound is not happening, not only do I hate the look and feel of them, but also that is not even realistic on my budget. My longbow was much cheaper than any compound found online or in store. As far as shotguns go, not likely. Again, for budget constraint reasons. A Coach Gun would not be sufficient for turkey. Coach Guns don't support slugs or chokes and they have cylinder patterning. Coach Gun bore patterns are only effective or accurate to 10 meters/yards or less. Most people use modern shotguns with full or extra full chokes for turkeys.


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## MiStickSlinger (Mar 15, 2013)

lonewolf88 said:


> Again, if I had someone as serious and adamant about archery somewhat closeby in NC with a vehicle, I would be practicing daily or weekly. Like I said, I hate only getting one chance to practice a month. I love archery, I literally would be shooting every single day if the opportunity arose. 300-900 dollars for a ****in ugly compound is not happening, not only do I hate the look and feel of them, but also that is not even realistic on my budget. My longbow was much cheaper than any compound found online or in store. As far as shotguns go, not likely. Again, for budget constraint reasons. A Coach Gun would not be sufficient for turkey. Coach Guns don't support slugs or chokes and they have cylinder patterning. Coach Gun bore patterns are only effective or accurate to 10 meters/yards or less. Most people use modern shotguns with full or extra full chokes for turkeys.


Regardless of your views on compounds and shotguns, if you can't hit the broadside of the barn and are not able to improve your situation, you have no business being in the woods, it's not fair to the animal


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## lonewolf88 (Feb 22, 2016)

Are you avoiding two key facts I stated or are you simply trying to deter me from ever hunting this year? I clearly said I *CANNOT* afford a compound or turkey shotgun due to *BUDGET CONSTRAINTS* and *would like to have a friend serious about archery, so I can practice every day or every week.*

I am sorry that I do not have $200-$1500 a month to spare after bills and needs, to take myself to the range in Conover every day or every week via taxi.


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## MiStickSlinger (Mar 15, 2013)

lonewolf88 said:


> Are you avoiding two key facts I stated or are you simply trying to deter me from ever hunting this year? I clearly said I *CANNOT* afford a compound or turkey shotgun due to *BUDGET CONSTRAINTS* and *would like to have a friend serious about archery, so I can practice every day or every week.*
> 
> I am sorry that I do not have $200-$1500 a month to spare after bills and needs, to take myself to the range in Conover every day or every week via taxi.


There you go with the excuses again. I don't want to deter you from archery, but I do want to deter you from bowhunting until you have gained the ability to accurately place an arrow in a spot that will guarantee a clean kill consistently. There has been plenty of people here offering good advice and you've been dismissing it all while making a ton of excuses. Its ridiculous that an animal has to suffer because you feel you should hunt before youve given yourself a chance to increase your skillset. Ive shot a traditional bow for years, and just last season I finally felt confident enough to take one into the woods. It would not have been fair to the animals I pursue to have taken one out before then.


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## lonewolf88 (Feb 22, 2016)

Excuses? They are facts. Or do you expect me to cancel all my plans and/or take off work for the month, just to walk 5-14 hours to and from the range? You seem to confuse facts with excuses. Its not that I do not want to practice a lot more and do consider all advice given. Problem is, I do not live in an area where I can shoot my bow safely. Once again, I do not have the room or area clearance for practice. Are you suggesting or insinuating cancelling everything just to tire myself out daily or weekly walking 20-24 miles roundtrip?


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## lonewolf88 (Feb 22, 2016)

This seems to be the third time I have said that I *am willing to and want to practice a lot more often*

I DO want to and intend to work on my form and practice more. The problem is, again, doing so LEGALLY. Once again, I do not have a vehicle nor the means to get one currently. Also, to my knowledge, it is against ordinances or the law to discharge a weapon within city or town limits. Are you suggesting or insinuating illegal activity, Mi?


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## MiStickSlinger (Mar 15, 2013)

I don't care what you do, if you really wanted to get better you'd find a way. I work 6 days a week, I can't shoot in my backyard and my local range is 15 miles away. I shoot in my basement, every day, whether its 1 arrow or 100. Even if the target is 5 feet away its still better practice than picking it up every great while on a "real" range.






this picture is what happens when people like you go into the woods unprepared. All it does is give ethical hunters a bad name


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## grantmac (May 31, 2007)

If you can't commit to more practice then you can't hunt, period. No two ways around it. This hobby requires practice time to become proficient enough to hunt. 5 days a week is about minimum at the beginner level.
If you don't have a car how are you going to get your animals home?

Grant


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## lonewolf88 (Feb 22, 2016)

Hunting Partner. I have made such requests on here and on other forums. Hunting Partner is a thing, not sure why some seem to think I do not need anyone. Gameland is 10-30 miles away and in the opposite direction from the Conover range, I also do not have any permission yet from landowners for private land. So, if anything is stopping me from hunting, it is realistic opportunity more than anything. Most people, no matter how active they live, will not do half day or multi day hikes with 50-100 pounds of gear for a hunt. Average life is not the Military, while I am not weak and have the conditioning to do such logistics, it would result in the hunt being not enjoyable or, in the case of practice, not having much time at all to practice. Country friend that is serious about archery and hunting=a full 12 hours of practice every day or more. Walking to/from the range=2-5 hours at best, as the majority of the morning or day is spent walking. 

Again, it comes down to budget constraints. Should I really sacrifice food and shelter spending 40-200 dollars on an archery target?

Am I looking at the wrong place for direct help? Seems I am only getting indirect help on here. I even mentioned seeking a woodsman mentor so I can save money making my own gloves, armguard, bow and arrows, but the focus seems more indirect advice and lack of empathy or real assistance. 

My learning style is hands on. I cannot learn from videos or books. I learn through real experience, in the field/in person.


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## Halfcawkt (Dec 27, 2015)

There have been times in the past that for one or a number of reasons I did not feel I could ethically or responsibly hunt. It did not keep me out of the woods! If planned to hunt with someone, and could not ethically do so, I still went. I just didn't kill, or changed my tactics to make it more fair and responsible. Dude, I hope you make miraculous improvement before seasons open. If not I hope you make the right call when the time comes. You have been worse than stubborn. You have been down right nasty. These people have tried very hard to help you. You have abused them to the point that I don't know why they still bother. If face to face, I would be saying this in a calm, even tone. I have read enough of your venom directed at people I respect and appreciate. I once had a guy in our hunting party who messed up and wounded a doe. We tried to put her down, but it didn't happen due to Safety concerns. I know that the prairie coyotes got her that night, but I lost sleep over that for over a week. Didn't sleep at all for two nights. I hope you have a gut check. I hope you do the right thing. But I will be avoiding you for a while, and hopefully in time, you may have a change of heart in the way you treat people. I truly hope you have a good one, sir.


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## lonewolf88 (Feb 22, 2016)

Ok, so wanting to do things in person and/or be mentored so I don't have to spend 9 dollars or more to replace my broken arrow is bad?


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## lonewolf88 (Feb 22, 2016)

There are a number of shot placements for the deer family. My question about ethical turkey kills still was not answered. How can I practice more if I do not know how to practice? I ask again. Do you have to shoot a turkey in the head or can you do an ethical kill through the spine from the side or rear of the turkey?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PzRTb5WwfaA


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## grantmac (May 31, 2007)

You need to take a deep breath and invest in reality. Right now your posts read like bad online gaming fanfiction.


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## MiStickSlinger (Mar 15, 2013)

lonewolf88 said:


> There are a number of shot placements for the deer family. My question about ethical turkey kills still was not answered. How can I practice more if I do not know how to practice? I ask again. Do you have to shoot a turkey in the head or can you do an ethical kill through the spine from the side or rear of the turkey?
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PzRTb5WwfaA


Really dude, you gave me a million reasons why you can't practice because you have to walk 100 miles or whatever bs you thought of, and now you cant practice more because we didn't tell you where the vitals are on a turkey, so therefore you don't know the right way to practice. Google "turkey shot placement" that's something you could have done at the beginning. I hope this is a joke I really don't know why I'm participating in this trainwreck


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## lonewolf88 (Feb 22, 2016)

Ok, so Im pretty much getting that the expectation is not pay my bills/rent or be able to afford food, because Im expected to buy a 3d target that will make other needs hard or impossible and now I cannot even get an honest answer from more experienced archers/bowhunters based on their own experience. Really seems like I am being stressed or pressured and risk not eating or having a place to sleep. Really, this thread seems to have gone from helpful to mocking/lack of empathy toward my budget and such, within a month.


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## oldmand (Aug 18, 2015)

I've said it before. This guy is pulling everyone's chains. Notice how in one post he used meters/yards in one of his posts. Don't know anyone in the NC area who even knows what meters are. Plus, his syntax is questionable. You are correct MiStickSlinger but trainwreck is much too mild a term for this thread. What say you 88?


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## lonewolf88 (Feb 22, 2016)

I say that its personal preference what one gauges or judges distance in while practicing or hunting. 3 feet=1 yard, 3.28 feet=1 meter. Does something as petty or mild as a difference in distance terms really matter? or is getting better form, accuracy and learning how to make my own arrows/gloves/bows from a Woodsman more important? I am serious, no idea why the typical online assumptions apply here. Learning Styles exist and are a REAL concept. Look them up. I am not pulling anyones chains, what I am doing is seeking real friendships.


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## grantmac (May 31, 2007)

Archery isn't expensive compared to most outdoor activities, but it isn't free. There is a minimun level of investment required to participate in both time and money.
Hunting is much more expensive still. It's just not an economical means of gathering food for someone who lives in town.

Based on the fact that you've been given good advice, then ignored it. And you won't do any research or learning on your own. And you will need them to provide transportation.
I can't see anyone wanting to teach you how to hunt. Much less actually take you hunting where they will likely have to track your gutshot deer for miles.


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## maddog20/20 (Oct 13, 2015)

If you have a yard, you can practice. Hay bales simply aren't that expensive and you only need 20 yards or so. I had a friend in college that collected a crapload of cardboard boxes from grocery stores and bundled them together as a target and put the target at the end of his hallway and would shoot from his living room.

Where there's a will, there's a way and you need to have that "come to Jesus" moment where you realize that you're bad news in the woods right now and nowhere NEAR proficient enough for hunting. It is what it is. Accept it and fix it or move on to a less expensive hobby that doesn't result in torturing animals.

You can be better if you want to...but that takes realizing that you're NOT good and taking steps to correct that.


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## lonewolf88 (Feb 22, 2016)

The whole focus of my practice is based toward what I aim on or plan on hunting. My focus now is turkey targets. After the season, should I end up missing it due to not enough practice or just lack of opportunity, my focus will switch to deer and bear. Maybe small game. That's where confusion or misinterpretation ensues or tends to. I do not need to be taught to hunt. I already know how. a Hunting Partner would cover a number of issues for me. Transportation, supplies when/if needed, such as calls or decoys, also being I don't know NC terrain, a hunting partner would save my life if I got hurt. Then there is also someone to cover me in case of cougar, bear or wild boar attack. As far as hunting goes, I primarily stalk. I don't have a large budget, so all the technical stuff doesn't matter. If snipers in the Military can do it, I can stalk a bear or sit on a tree, stump or log and bring a turkey in. Turkeys are the only thing you cannot stalk successfully. I have stalked and taken deer successfully in the past stalking, getting up to five to ten minutes at times. Matter of fact, last month, I stood like 1-2 feet from a rabbit.


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## maddog20/20 (Oct 13, 2015)

lonewolf88 said:


> The whole focus of my practice is based toward what I aim on or plan on hunting. My focus now is turkey targets. After the season, should I end up missing it due to not enough practice or just lack of opportunity, my focus will switch to deer and bear. Maybe small game. That's where confusion or misinterpretation ensues or tends to. I do not need to be taught to hunt. I already know how. a Hunting Partner would cover a number of issues for me. Transportation, supplies when/if needed, such as calls or decoys, also being I don't know NC terrain, a hunting partner would save my life if I got hurt. Then there is also someone to cover me in case of cougar, bear or wild boar attack. As far as hunting goes, I primarily stalk. I don't have a large budget, so all the technical stuff doesn't matter. If snipers in the Military can do it, I can stalk a bear or sit on a tree, stump or log and bring a turkey in. Turkeys are the only thing you cannot stalk successfully. I have stalked and taken deer successfully in the past stalking, getting up to five to ten minutes at times. Matter of fact, last month, I stood like 1-2 feet from a rabbit.



Jesus H Christ, dude....you group like that with a turkey and you say you're going to hunt bear??? This just went from silly to absurd and it looks like this problem will most likely take care of itself.


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## MiStickSlinger (Mar 15, 2013)

So you need a taxi driver who can cover you in the event of a "cougar" attack. Because cougar attacks are so prevalent in North Carolina. Why are you incapable of driving yourself around?


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## kegan (Aug 28, 2006)

Ok, let's all take a deep breath and start over.

Lonewolf, the simple truth is you need to walk before you can run. If you don't know where to shoot a turkey, you probably don't know enough of the fundamentals to RESPONSIBLY hunt. That include your notion of the simplicity of turkey hunting (they can see better than you and sitting on a stump won't cut it). That doesn't mean you _can't_ go out and try to kill something, it just means that you probably _shouldn't_. To answer your question though: head or neck shot are excellent on turkeys, but most archers shoot for the vitals with the aim to also break the leg bone. You don't appear to be accurate enough yet to really make that call either way, though.

As for the bare finger shooting: in medieval times they used tabs similar to what I showed. They're dirt cheap, they last, and they will not only save your fingers but improve your shooting. I did the same thing you did, shooting bare finger because it's "traditional". I don't anymore for many, many reasons.

To your comments on hunting: yes, cancel your plans. You really, really shouldn't be hunting at this point. It's not a big deal, just wait until next year. Or if you follow the given advice, maybe this fall. At this point you're basically talking about hunting like a teenager who just learned how to start a car talking about driving on their own. Totally impractical. Time to take a deep breath, slow down, and get your ducks in a row. Accuracy first, then hunting. Let's be honest here: if it's this hard to get to the range, do you really want to take your perhaps only hunting opportunity for a month and waste it by missing or wounding a turkey? Turkeys are the hardest game animal to kill with a bow and arrow. You need to have some serious turkey hunting skill or a lot of dumb luck. I've only killed one after hunting them for five or six years and it was all thanks to the latter- and much more precise shooting skill.

Which sort of segways into the next issue. You don't have a car or the time/money to practice with your bow. That's not your fault, most of us have found ourselves in that position at one point or another. However, if that's the case can you really justify spending that much time/money on hunting in the first place? I get it, you want to follow your passion, but that's the thing: this is a big adventure, and there are a lot of steps. If you want to bowhunt, you need to develop proficiency with the bow. That might mean making a $4 PVC bow pulling 20# and shooting at three feet in your apartment. When it's cold I shoot in my basement. You can try to skip steps but it's not going to go well, for you or the animal. Oh, and buying a carbon arrow and some 100 gr broadheads is most likely a big step backwards. I made the same mistake when I started and, like you, was starting with selfbows. Unless they're very long and very light in spine, they're likely way too stiff, may have plastic vanes, and are probably too light physically for best performance. 

We want to help you, but you're not listening. You have an idea in your head and seem frustrated that we're not giving you the keys to making it happen. I'm sorry, but it won't work that way because you are so far away from your goal that there is no "answer" beyond a lot of time and hard work. I want to see you succeed, because I started in the same way. I was insanely stubborn though, and it wasn't until I had been at it for almost seven years that I killed anything, and even that was more about luck than skill. If you want to get to the point where you hunt in ancient fashion here's a quick run down of the basics you'll need, with all of the necessary hunting knowledge omitted for space:

1. Learn how to shoot consistently. Your arrows appear to be similar, so you should be able to shoot a definable group. This means a group no larger than 8", and preferably less. If they're not, shoot just one. Shoot at a clean piece paper, as the paper will track all the holes and show you the group.
2. Once you are consistent enough to establish a pattern, begin tuning. Set up/tune your arrows so that when you shoot broadhead arrows, they fly to the same point of impact as the field point tipped arrows. Broadheads are very unforgiving of tuning errors.
3. Carry these skills on to heavier draw weights, more akin to what you will use for hunting. In other words, learn the skills necessary on lighter equipment and then reestablish them on heavier hunting gear. Keep the lighter gear for reference and additional skill-honing.
4. Learn to properly sharpen and care for broadheads if you haven't already.
5. Start with small game. Lots of shot opportunities, lots of fun, and much more demanding shooting scenarios (excitement/buck fever not counting). Also, no big concerns with carting a deer home without a car and permission to hunt is usually more easily obtained. Did I mention it's delicious? Because it is!

The hunting skills can, and should, be learned while you establish your archery skills. Once you get the ball rolling things will come more and more quickly, especially if you start properly. Learning from an experienced hunter is a great idea, but you really don't "need a hunting partner". You just need to learn the basics. 

Just slow down and enjoy the journey. There are ways to speed up the learning curve, but you're not really using any of them. For example, "tilting" the bow, which is called canting, is not an uncommon practice. It has nothing to do with your bow being a selfbow. It helps move the bow out of your line of sight and, if you're torquing the arrow (which is bad) it keeps it on your knuckle. It also increases string contact, which is why I personally stopped canting so much. The feathers cut your hand either because you didn't trim them properly or because the arrow is out of tune. Your follow through is there, but it's not controlled. You flip your fingers out (rather than just relaxing them) because you're not using proper finger protection, and you jerk your hand back very, very hard, as well as dropping your bow arm badly. It's a response to the pending release and discomfort, and is a good way to establish target panic. 

If you want to just ignore everything we're offering, then take this advice at least- keep your shots close, to where you can put them all in the vitals. If that's only five feet, so be it. Don't take a shot past that distance. Period. If you'd like to learn more, then we're happy to help. Just leave the excuses at the door. If there's a reason you can't do something a certain way, then don't just keep doing what you're doing, take the advice for alternate methods. Can't get to the range? Shoot in your apartment. Can't afford a lighter bow? Make a cheap one from PVC. Can't buy a tab or glove? Make one from leather scraps. If you're working on a budget I have lots of first hand experience on how to work around these problems. 

We're not against you, you're just making things a lot harder on yourself by not working with us a little. We can get you sorted out and on track, but if you don't change anything, nothing will change. It's just that simple.


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## ACFrost (Jul 26, 2015)

I hesitate to post in this thread at all, but...

It would behoove the OP to contact gameland authorities, as it appears from some light internet searching that target shooting may not actually be entirely prohibited on public lands in NC.

A servicible bicycle can often be obtained pretty inexpensively in many/most locales with only a minor amount of effort. 10 miles is just a warm-up on a bicycle once you've got some time on one. Just in case you hadn't thought of this for some reason.

Just posting in the likely vain hopes it might do some good. Hell I'd buy a damn cheap light bow for the guy if i thought it would actually help. Guess we can always hope for the best. Otherwise I'm pulling for the turkeys and rabbits, no offense.


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## Maddmartagan (Feb 13, 2015)

Guys,

This thread is ridiculous. The OP is either:

a) trolling

Or 

b) Has some sort of mental disability. And I mean that in a very sincere way. 

If this isn't a troll, then his perception of reality is extremely distorted and there is no reason to even attempt to give him advice. He seems to believe that a hunting partner is going to be willing to drive completely out of his way in order to pick OP up, then drive OP to a hunting area (that OP has stated he hasn't even gained permission to hunt yet, which will next to impossible to gain), and then protect him from bear/cougar attacks. And OP believes this hunting partner is going to do all of that for free I assume, because OP has already stated how he has to choose between shelter and food or archery targets. 

Again, I think this is a troll, albeit a good troll that borders on believability. But either way, there is no point in giving him advice.


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## oldmand (Aug 18, 2015)

Yes, this thread is beyond ridiculous, but it sure is entertaining reading. Hopefully it will continue. I get bored reading about tuning ?s or what's the best bow, etc. This has to be my all-time favorite. And Maddog, that comment about the cougars is worthy of iconic status. I've been LMAO for a while now. Keep 'em coming 88.


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## oldmand (Aug 18, 2015)

Ooops! My apologies MiStickSlinger. That was your post about the cougars. But Maddog's about the bear ranks right up there with yours.


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## Maddmartagan (Feb 13, 2015)

Ha, completely agree oldmand. Ridiculous but very entertaining. 


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## lonewolf88 (Feb 22, 2016)

Thank you, kegan for addressing my concerns and questions. Atleast one archer seriously considers the facts I reveal and does not assume or state I am making excuses. To anyone else, no, I don't plan on hunting bear with this longbow. a hunting partner is a precaution, I do not feel comfortable hunting alone. Never have. There are a number of concerns and risks with hunting alone. Get bit by a snake. Get stalked and attacked by a bear, cougar or boar. Fall in a cowpath or rut and twist your ankle, not seeing it due to pre-dawn or dusk conditions. Fall down a cliff. It is a matter of safety. As far as archery equipment goes, I still am looking for a Woodsman mentor. One of my arrows broke this past Saturday, salvaged the feathers and target point. I believe I made a threat solely on seeking a woodsman mentor, so I can be taught how to identify wood types suitable for bows and arrowshafts, cure and treat hide into leather, tailor it into gloves and such, and craft my own bow and arrows. 

Contrary to the assumptions, I am taking advice given. What is upsetting is being mocked, insulted and having the typical assumptions thrown at me. 

That said, I am most comfortable at 8-15 meters roughly. Its the range at which I do best at. Tried longer shots this past weekend, but I do not know my bow well enough for 20-40 meter shots or further yet. When I attempted the longshot, my arrows fell short or flew over the deer target. 

I would like to save money by getting a Woodsman mentor to teach me how to craft, however, I have not been able to find a mentor yet. 

As far as my accuracy goes, I have a budget so therefore, while I do want to get better and have better accuracy, I also do not want to damage any of my remaining 5 arrows in any way during practice nor am I trying to do robin hood. 

I will be practicing more often when the opportunity comes. I would appreciate if the negative comments and assumptions cease. You all have never met me, not even coming to the event I practiced at last Saturday. So the remarks about trolling or having a disorder can stop, damn it! 

I do agree that some things need correcting and will be trying to stop dropping the bow so fast. 

As far as a much earlier reply goes, I do know what is suitable for my bow. I practice with wooden arrows with 50-55 pound spine weight and the arrows are 31 inches in length. 

That said, as far as hunting preparations go, suitable for my bow would mean any modern arrowshaft, carbon or aluminum, that can handle atleast 50 pounds or greater. 

I do not want to end up with shards of carbon or metal in my hand or face, by using a ill suited modern arrow if and when I ever get the opportunity to hunt. 

There are only two things stopping me from hunting, not enough practice and lack of a hunting partner. I do not know why I am looked down at or thought to be weird for being a hands on visual learner, seeking a woodsman mentor and wanting a hunting partner for various legit reasons. 

Once more, no, I will not likely be hunting black bear this year. One, I will not hunt bear until I get a 58-70 pound bow. Two, I need to learn more about modern arrows. They are confusing. 1716, 1916, 2075, 2017? •Straightness Tolerance: ± 0.006" No idea what any of these are or what they mean. Not sure why modern arrows cannot simply have spine weight listed like my hawkwood wooden arrows. 

So, that is another concern before the hunt, getting suitable arrows. I know blunts are good for small game and 100 grain broadheads are good for turkey, with 150-200 grain being for larger game.


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## lonewolf88 (Feb 22, 2016)

you get bit by a snake, bit by a gator, have a disagreement with a nest of guinie wasps/hornets/ yellowjackets and cant see because of the swelling, if you fall out of a tree stand, or your climbing stand breaks 30 feet up, if you fall into the water off a rock ledge/bluff and break your ankle or leg, if you dont notice the deer's head is up and you get gored or taken for a ride when they stand up under you, If you get treed by a irate wild boar, black bear, cougar, and they decide to stay awhile, with your rifle leaning against the bottom of the said tree you are now residing in, if your 4 wheeler flips and pins you under it with a broken collarbone and busted pelvis, anyone of 1001 can happen on a hunt, and usually does, way we work it, 4 at tha camp, we log in where we are going (route) if we dont check into the camp 2 hrs after dark the other three start on a rescue op. unless radio contact has been made earlier. always go with a buddy, unless you are prepared to deal with the consequences of your actions.they dont have to hold your hand, just know what route your going, what quadrant.

--Taken from the words of a very wise, experienced survival-minded hunter.--


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## Hank D Thoreau (Dec 9, 2008)

Good thoughts on safety. As a climber in the pre cell phone days, we would go with a minimum of three: one to stay with the victim, and one to go for help, which could be more than a day away. Four would be better. The reality is, accidents happen outdoors. Heck, I just broke my hip at an airport. If I had done that in the mountains I would have been in real trouble. Fortunately, I have never had a serious climbing accident, though I have had to assist in rescues of others that have. It is up to each person to decide what risks they are willing to take, and to recognize that their risk decision could impact the safety of others if a rescue is needed.


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## kegan (Aug 28, 2006)

Lonewolf, please- pump the brakes. Don't take the negative comments to heart. We can get you sorted, but getting upset isn't going to help.

First of all, the arrows you need for your current bow will likely be in the 30-35# dynamic spine range. Stop worrying about your bow putting carbon or wood splinters in your hand. It's a selfbow. I love selfbows but they're rarely over-powered. Just learn about checking arrows. With carbons, just flex them before shooting and listen for cracking. Aluminums are either straight or bent, and when they break it's usually just cracking around the front insert from hitting a rock. They're quite safe. The numbers on them denote diameter and wall thickness. The first two are sixty-fourths of an inch diameter and the second two are thousandths of an inch wall thickness. You can ignore that for now and just get GameGetters, which are aluminum arrows sold in only four sizes based on carbon arrow spines. The spines are 500, 400, 340, and 300. These are deflections of an inch. To get the spine you divide 28" by the deflection, say .500, to get 56# of spine at 28" for static spine. Every inch longer is 5# less spine, and vice versa for shorter when calculating the dynamic spine. With a 100 gr tip, add 3# of spine. Add or subtract about 3# for every 25 gr difference in point weight. Because your bow is not center cut, you need a lighter dynamic spine than the draw weight to get them to fly properly. Your 50# woods are left extra long, which should help, but they still might be too stiff.

That's how you figure out what arrow you need, not "100 gr is good for turkey, 150-200 gr being for larger". I shoot 175 gr Simmons for everything because they work for my rig. I don't change my tip weight or arrows without re-tuning my whole set up. I explain all this to show that there's a lot more to it than what you seem to have been told. That's ok, we all have to learn it when starting. Right now, arrows are not the problem, your problem is the bow being too heavy and you not yet knowing proper technique. I refer you again to a stick of PVC.

As for the poundage for bear, that's not the thing. You don't need more than 50# for black bear if everything is set up properly. You're not set up properly. Right now you're concern would be the possibility of shooting the bear in the rump which is terribly irresponsible.

As someone who spent many years making bows and arrows from shoots, let me tell you: you won't be hunting for a long time that way. I started off trying to make all my gear, learning as I went, as well as learning to shoot, learning to hunt, and so on. If you want to shorten the learning curve, learn how to make your own bows first, then arrows. Bows are easy. Arrows are incredibly time consuming and require serious knowledge. Start with some simple aluminums, 500 spine GameGetters, left full length, with a 125 gr tip should get you started and work well enough for most of the selfbows you'll be making/using for the time being. 

If you want to learn primitive skills, that's separate from hunting skills, which are separate from archery skills. You're unlikely to find someone who actually has mastered all of those skills to teach you. Just pick one skill set at a time and work on them. Brain tanning is meaningless to learn if you are years away from actually killing a deer. It's a progression. Hunting without a partner isn't some terrifying prospect either, most of us do it. That's what cell phones/radios are for. Animal attacks are nowhere near as common as your expert has lead you to believe, either. If you twist an ankle just turn around and head back to your car/truck/bike and go home or to the ER. Not a big deal. If you fall off a cliff... actually I have nothing for that. Don't fall off of a cliff. 

Here's a short video from a few years ago. This was a good group, not an average one, but is the sort of shooting proficiency I had to attain before I started successfully filling the freezer, and I have access to private land with regular deer traffic. Excitement will mess with your profficiency, too. https://youtu.be/lDxpOL_WkQw

Let's get something out of the way: the bow you have is likely not good to learn on. You will want to make a cheap, light weight bow to learn proper shooting. Arrows are unimportant at this point. Shoot just one arrow and do so consistently enough to form a group on fresh paper. Use finger protection. That comes first. Don't buy any arrows, broadheads, or whatever. It's a waste of money right now and you don't sound like you have enough to afford that.


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## Hank D Thoreau (Dec 9, 2008)

lonewolf,

You may be looking for something that is difficult to find. The woodsman skills you are referring to are becoming more rare all the time. I am not sure how many folks here really know how to do what you are talking about. You might want to try Paleoplanet.net. They have forums on the stuff you are talking about. They also have an excellent primitive archery forum. They may have a better understanding of what you are asking for.

http://paleoplanet.net/


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## Maddmartagan (Feb 13, 2015)

Lonewolf, I apologize for my comments. I hope you are taking a lot of this advice to heart. But I made my statements because I was quite upset with your views that seem you are "entitled" to hunt no matter what. If you can't afford a shotgun or compound, that's fine, but you shouldn't be hunting. Either find a way to be proficient enough with a bow to ethically hunt, buy better or equipment, or don't hunt. You can't simply say "well I need to hunt but can't afford to buy a compound, and have no time to practice, but I need to hunt anyways." You don't see people going out into the woods and hunting deer with blow guns because it is "all they can afford." Again, you can probably still hunt, but your range will have to be limited to 5 yards. But it is irresponsible to take shots from the distances that you have provided in your grouping pic. 


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## lonewolf88 (Feb 22, 2016)

Wait, what? 30-35 pound spine weights for my 50 pound longbow? That would break at 25 inches draw. 26 inches=45 pounds of my bows draw weight. 

http://www.3riversarchery.com/hawkwood-medieval-wood-arrows.html These are what I have five of for practice now, since one broke at the tip from the target falling on the arrow. 

One of the main frustrations is how my preferred aluminum arrow brand, Easton always seems to have the nock on wrong. I was taught to shoot with the odd colored feather out, facing to my left. Two stores had the same issue. Nocks on the Eastons were positioned in a manner that would be akin to a crossbow, not a longbow or recurve string. 

I am running out of space in my place. Not to mention the tools needed for pvc bows are greater and more expensive than just finding wood from a tree in a forest, cutting it down and making a bow the old way. Again, I am a traditionalist. I like to do things in a more traditional or medieval way. 

How is arrow making longer and harder than bow making? The general idea of making an arrow the old way is finding suitable wood from branches, after identifying the wood type, carving and treating it with heat, and finishing it. 

There is this one guy in this archery club Im in that has been on the same bow for over a month. He still isn't finished with it. 

I suspect making your own wooden or rivercane arrows if you go the 1800s way instead of the medieval way, would take much less time than a bow. 

Again, mind my budget. Taking on The Woodsman vocation would be more realistic than spending hundreds for bandsaws, braces, etc needed to make a pvc bow. 

Still, modern arrows is good to know about,. Perhaps, it would be easier if I was simply recommended a specific aluminum arrow brand and type that would hold up and be suitable for my 50 pound longbow. 

Just because the opportunity to hunt is not present, does not mean it would not be good to know about suitable modern arrows in advance. 

In closing, the only two factors stopping me from a hunt are lack of enough practice and no serious hunting partner. Trust me, I know what a serious hunting partner is. I have had two potential hunting partners claim they were willing to hunt between November and February, but they never met up with me for range time nor did they put any action into their claims, by discussing and confirming hunting plans and meeting me the next day. Instead, I just got excuses from them. 

Anyway, that being said, I could get a bicycle, yes, but it will not support the 50-100 pounds of supplies and gear needed for a traditional hunt. Once more, I am a stalker and traditionalist. Meaning longbow, Scythian bow or medieval crossbow. No blinds or stands. No calls or decoys. Unless its absolutely needed like with turkey. 

So, you are saying that no one on here knows old world vocations? Kind of feel alone then. Here I am, a traditionalist and most of the world seems to be relying on simplicity and convenience instead of making a beautiful piece of art by hand, using no more than the mind, body and medieval or 1800s type tools. 

I will look at the link you provided, Hank...but I suspect I will just get handed links to videos or be told to buy some book instead of actually getting a real Woodsman mentor in person for hands on training and experience. Few people seem to care about hands on visual learners. We are misinterpreted as being stubborn or difficult, when all we want is simply to meet people who share our views, passion, drive, and interests with the goal of learning a valuable craft vocation.


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## maddog20/20 (Oct 13, 2015)

Just as an aside, Lonewolf, I don't think people are as irritated with your comments as they are your reaction to the response.

You're not ready to hunt. Period. Don't defend it, you don't NEED to...but you DO need to accept it and not do it until you are. The nice thing is that you'll have some pretty good objective metrics to tell you when you're at least capable of making shots. That doesn't make you a good "hunter" because there's a lot more to hunting than being able to hit the target (as I'm sure you know), but the flip-side is that responsibly hunting is pretty damned hard when you CAN'T hit a practice target with no pressure or adrenaline. Even people that do this all the time have a wall they won't pass because they just don't feel they can responsibly throw an arrow from that distance, so don't think it's about you as much as it's just about archery in general.

As to practice, you can do it if you want to. I'm at a loss at your insistence that you can't practice because you can't get to a range. Buy a hay bale and draw a target on a piece of paper. Go to the grocery store or local big box store and ask for their boxes and MAKE a backstop. You can practice if you want to and you NEED to. We ALL do. I've been shooting a bow for 35 years and I STILL go out and shoot at least 5 times a week at around 100 arrows each time.

Everyone needs that...even "naturals" :wink:


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## maddog20/20 (Oct 13, 2015)

lonewolf88 said:


> Wait, what? 30-35 pound spine weights for my 50 pound longbow? That would break at 25 inches draw. 26 inches=45 pounds of my bows draw weight.
> 
> http://www.3riversarchery.com/hawkwood-medieval-wood-arrows.html These are what I have five of for practice now, since one broke at the tip from the target falling on the arrow.
> 
> ...


Three things. Don't get worked up over the position of the cock feather. What matters is riser clearance and arrow flight. Of course, you want the arrow to flex around the stiff zone, but as long as it's flying straight and clearing the riser. I actually shoot cock feather toward the riser because that's how I get best clearance (I did a lipstick test), but you can always reposition the nock if you need to.

Second: Nobody cares about how they did things in medieval times if it results in injury. Sometimes we develop things for a REASON and not having nerve damage in your hand is a pretty damned good reason to adopt the "new fangled" practice of using tabs or gloves. I'd sacrifice a bit of "tradition" for a whole lot of "feeling in my hands and lack of pain."

Third: You don't need any of that stuff to make a PVC bow. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=REANOmz-Glk here's a guy making one for $10. There are plenty of youtube links where they make them with the most basic of tools. Here's another: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zm6...C4BxuzkgkwFO0e7pomXooM8A0h7O5ezILz3jeZmvBJcew


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## Sky-Dogg (Sep 15, 2013)

Lonewolf88,

Most Easton aluminum arrows have Super Nocks. They fit snugly, but can be turned to orient the cock feather as you desire. Nock the arrow to the string, then gently turn the shaft of the arrow until you have the cock feather where you want it.
Good luck, Brian


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## MiStickSlinger (Mar 15, 2013)

lonewolf88 said:


> In closing, the only two factors stopping me from a hunt are lack of enough practice and no serious hunting partner. Trust me, I know what a serious hunting partner is. I have had two potential hunting partners claim they were willing to hunt between November and February, but they never met up with me for range time nor did they put any action into their claims, by discussing and confirming hunting plans and meeting me the next day. Instead, I just got excuses from them.


They probably got tired of being your personal taxi. I had a hunting buddy who always bummed rides off me and only wanted to hunt my spots. It gets annoying, that and having to defend him from wild cougar attacks


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## maddog20/20 (Oct 13, 2015)

MiStickSlinger said:


> They probably got tired of being your personal taxi. I had a hunting buddy who always bummed rides off me and only wanted to hunt my spots. It gets annoying, that and having to defend him from wild cougar attacks


Don't forget bears...


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## MiStickSlinger (Mar 15, 2013)

maddog20/20 said:


> Don't forget bears...


and boars


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## Maddmartagan (Feb 13, 2015)

lonewolf88 said:


> Wait, what? 30-35 pound spine weights for my 50 pound longbow? That would break at 25 inches draw. 26 inches=45 pounds of my bows draw weight.
> 
> http://www.3riversarchery.com/hawkwood-medieval-wood-arrows.html These are what I have five of for practice now, since one broke at the tip from the target falling on the arrow.
> 
> ...


What "traditional" supplies and gear are you carrying that is going to weigh 50-100 pounds? Are you talking about camping? Because that is pretty much your typical weight if going backpacking. You bring traditional has nothing to do with it. But still, please let me know what is going to weigh so much. I'm curious now. 



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## grantmac (May 31, 2007)

Nobody wants to spend hours spoonfeeding BASIC information (which we have) to someone who rejects it (you have).
You can either accept our information as fact (it is) or you can do your own research and figure it out on your own.

You say hands on visual learner; I see stubborn, entitled and lazy.

Grant


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## Hank D Thoreau (Dec 9, 2008)

Go to the paleoplanet link. Those guys do the sort of things you are looking at doing. Look at all the sub-forums. Skinning, tanning, etc., it is all there. Go to the bottom of the screen and you will see all the archery. There are a lot of primitive bow makers. This is your best option that I can think of. You are not looking for something that is in the wheel house of most folks on this forum. There are a few here but Paleoplanet specializes in the skills that you are looking for.

http://paleoplanet.net/


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## kegan (Aug 28, 2006)

Your arrows will not break because the spine is light. You need the proper stiffness relative to the bow weight to get arrow flight. It has absolutely nothing to do with whether the arrow will break. Only time you'll have that issue is with wooden arrows of very low spines or low spine carbons in compounds. Stop arguing. Anyone familiar with selfbows out of center will tell you the same thing.

Fancy arrows, but not money well spent.

I started building wooden bows as a kid. Most of the time I used a hatchet, set of rasps and files, draw knife, heat gun, vice, hand saw, as well as a scale and tillering stick. To make a PVC bow you need a hand saw. Maybe a heat gun if you want to get fancy. That's it. I also build composite fiberglass bows for a living. They do require a lot of specialized tools. You are bending a piece of 3/4" PVC, about 66" long, and putting a string on it. Ta-da, you're done. 

Your lack of understanding of spine is keeping you from realizing this, but arrows are MUCH more difficult to make. They all need to be balanced to each other in terms of not only materials and dimensions, but also stiffness and physical weight. Making arrows from natural materials requires a grain scale, spine tester, and a number of hand tools as well as a great deal of time. Any bow will shoot, but whether you hit the mark depends entirely on the arrow. I have made hundreds of selfbows and hundreds of wooden arrows from all sorts of materials. I have plenty of first hand knowledge to tell you that you don't know how much you don't know, here.

I can slap an arrow together in an hour. I can slap a bow together in the same amount of time. One will shoot accurately, and one will not. I am not only minding your budget here, but also your time. If you want to spin your wheels, go ahead. 

I have absolutely no idea why you need 50-100 lbs of gear for a hunt. I have tree stands that don't weigh that much. 

"So, you are saying that no one on here knows old world vocations? Kind of feel alone then. Here I am, a traditionalist and most of the world seems to be relying on simplicity and convenience instead of making a beautiful piece of art by hand, using no more than the mind, body and medieval or 1800s type tools."

Quit being so melodramatic. I've done everything you're trying to do and know most of the stuff you're talking about wanting to learn. I've moved past a lot of it as my interests have changed over the years. You can either listen to what I'm saying, or not. You simply don't have the resources or knowledge to do what you want to do as quickly as you want to do it. Get over yourself and start listening. I'm trying to help and you're just being rude.


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## maddog20/20 (Oct 13, 2015)

Sometimes you just have to let the kid play with the matches so they can see why you told them a thousand times to put them down. We've invested a lot of time and advice worth charging for out of generosity, so perhaps it's time to piss on this fire and call in the dogs and hope some of it sunk in.


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## maddog20/20 (Oct 13, 2015)

Kind of an interesting sidebar:

I do business consulting for eye doctors when I'm not seeing patients myself and I run into this exact same thing there. Someone will contract us with all kinds of problems that are easy to identify, but when you show them what the problems are (which most of the time are obvious to an outside observer) and make suggestions, all you get is all of the reasons they DON'T need to do what you say. It's frustrating, but it is what it is. You make the recommendations, let them decide to ignore them and then let them come back when they're ready to listen.


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## Hank D Thoreau (Dec 9, 2008)

Maddog, Is that what 20/20 in your screen name is about?


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## maddog20/20 (Oct 13, 2015)

Hank D Thoreau said:


> Maddog, Is that what 20/20 in your screen name is about?


Yeah, the whole thing is kind of a funny play on words. At one point, I got stuck with the first half of that handle and being an optometrist, one of my friends added the 20/20 and the rest is history. It's now just my go-by online.

It's not because I like to drink Maddog 20/20...although, if the mood is right...


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## Attack (Oct 25, 2011)

This thread is fantastic. I just placed 5th at the Canadian Nationals Indoor 3d and I don't feel I am where I need to be yet to hunt with my longbow. But maybe my expectations are rediculous lol

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## lonewolf88 (Feb 22, 2016)

I have absolutely no idea where people are getting that I am defending my right to hunt or saying I am hunting no matter what. I have been very clear in my statements and intent. I have NOT said that hunting is going to happen. The opportunity is not there; it is not realistic. Again, I have stated multiple times that I do not have a vehicle or hunting partner. Furthermore, it is past 9 am on a day, where, I planned on scouting during pre-season for hunting on gameland. That plan was to ensue an hour ago. It did not. It did not ensue. So, please, people....seriously.....start reading or re-reading my statements in my prior posts much more carefully. You will or may just realize this fact and get a better idea on my intent and such. Anyway, the form training and search for a mentor continues.


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## MiStickSlinger (Mar 15, 2013)

lonewolf88 said:


> I have absolutely no idea where people are getting that I am defending my right to hunt or saying I am hunting no matter what. I have been very clear in my statements and intent. I have NOT said that hunting is going to happen. The opportunity is not there; it is not realistic. Again, I have stated multiple times that I do not have a vehicle or hunting partner. Furthermore, it is past 9 am on a day, where, I planned on scouting during pre-season for hunting on gameland. That plan was to ensue an hour ago. It did not. It did not ensue. So, please, people....seriously.....start reading or re-reading my statements in my prior posts much more carefully. You will or may just realize this fact and get a better idea on my intent and such. Anyway, the form training and search for a mentor continues.


Be sure to vote for Bernie Sanders in November, you know so you can have your hand held the entire way


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## lonewolf88 (Feb 22, 2016)

Getting really and truly sick of tired of the typical assumptions and crap online. What, people cannot have an open mind and/or be bold and go outside their comfort zone to meet and talk to people in reality?! Seems even here the mindset follows popular belief instead of free thought and open mindedness. 

It is not about ''hand-holding'', clearly very few, if any people online understand what hands on visual learner means. It means in person, in the field, learning through REAL experience. By the popular and common belief, you may as well say or claim you are a black belt in some martial art, Mi. damn....what is society coming to? 

I mean, I join sites like this to meet like minded individuals and get real experience in. Not sit around throughout the year just getting advice.


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## Attack (Oct 25, 2011)

Hey bud. This is the internet. People are going to make jokes and some will even be mean but most of the people here with real knowledge of what you are asking are helping you. Kegan gave you gold and you threw it back in his face saying this is just gold coloured plastic... The real gold I want is this... Sorry but what you are looking for, you are not going to find by sitting on the computer and demanding it come to you. If you want to learn... Get out there and learn. Make that PVC bow and go shoot rabbits and squirrels until you are comfortable. 

The reason people are coming to the conclusion that you are going to hunt this year whether you are ready or not... Is because you have not once said you are not ready with your bow... Even in your last post you state that the only reason you are not out there right now is because you don't have transportation. 

I have read this entire thread and it was very funny. My favourite part was when you said you can't practice for turkey season because you dont have a 3d turkey target and said that people want you to buy an expensive 3d target instead of eating. Now I haven't done a real good facepalm in a while but that one did it for me. No one said you needed a 3d target... Just get a cardboard box and fill it with plastic bags or old rags or old clothes. That is almost free... But you are right... No one here is willing to help you  carry on demanding "bushcraft" people come pick you up and take you hunting and teach you everything there is to know... Then you can tell them in person the right way to teach you and how wrong they are.  my advise to you... Get a slingshot and go shoot squirrels... Have a lovely day.

Sent from my LG-D959 using Tapatalk


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## maddog20/20 (Oct 13, 2015)

lonewolf88 said:


> Getting really and truly sick of tired of the typical assumptions and crap online. What, people cannot have an open mind and/or be bold and go outside their comfort zone to meet and talk to people in reality?! Seems even here the mindset follows popular belief instead of free thought and open mindedness.
> 
> It is not about ''hand-holding'', clearly very few, if any people online understand what hands on visual learner means. It means in person, in the field, learning through REAL experience. By the popular and common belief, you may as well say or claim you are a black belt in some martial art, Mi. damn....what is society coming to?
> 
> I mean, I join sites like this to meet like minded individuals and get real experience in. Not sit around throughout the year just getting advice.


So....you joined an internet chat forum to NOT learn things by reading or get advice. I see. Did you think that you were going to meet people that lived close to you that you've never met who would be willing to pick you up, drive you everywhere and basically act as your teacher and chauffeur? That's what you thought you would find in an online archery forum??

I respectfully suggest you might have had an unrealistic expectation.

That said, if there are any land owners or lease holders that not only know a lot more than me and are willing to show me everything they know, let me hunt their land for free AND drive me around, I'm also willing to go for Lonewolf's deal.


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## kegan (Aug 28, 2006)

lonewolf88 said:


> What, people cannot have an open mind and/or be bold and go outside their comfort zone to meet and talk to people in reality?! Seems even here the mindset follows popular belief instead of free thought and open mindedness..


I tried to help, even when everyone else was smart enough to move on. You ignored the advice, and then argued with me. You can't just scoff at a response simply because you have to _read_ it. 

Good luck. I'm done.


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## lonewolf88 (Feb 22, 2016)

sighs- I come online for only a handful of reasons. One being connecting and meeting like minded individuals and two, to sometimes get advice and suggestions. 

I will stay with my current longbow, considering and accounting for the advice given by kegan and such. I will be working on my form more and the like. I am not debating or arguing that I need more practice and to tone down the excitement and such. I think my passion and love for archery is too high and combined with the fact I only get one practice session a month, unless something changes this month, that may be the cause for my errors. Such as bringing the bow down too fast. 

I am sorry that I get so caught up in finally shooting my longbow that excitement fills my body. 

As far as the other advice goes, no. I have invested a lot of money already to get into archery and hunting again and I am not about to attempt something that I will just get frustrated with and never shoot, due to not having a real mentor that suits my learning style. 

More likely, I would attempt woodworking. Learning how to make a beautiful bow in person. I don't like the look of pvc bows. 

Maddog, now you are just misinterpreting and exaggerating my words. I never said anyone has to take me everywhere. Never once have I said that. 

What I have said, or mentioned is that it would help if I had someone as a friend or acquaintance completely or somewhat just as passionate as I am in archery willing to practice with me and give me pointers on the fly at the LEAST. 

How exactly would a box or haybale help me practice accuracy for or to the intended game I want to hunt? a box or haybale is larger than the kill/vital areas of any game animal. 

I did not say the woodsman mentor had to come to me. Just getting a mentor would be nice. 21st century=most people want things now/immediately and rely on simplicity of modernity. 

I do not. There is no better show of pride, than taking the time to make something with your own hands, with 1800s or medieval style tools. No blowtorch, no heat gun, no c-clamps or any of that modern stuff.


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## kegan (Aug 28, 2006)

lonewolf88 said:


> I do not. There is no better show of pride, than taking the time to make something with your own hands, with 1800s or medieval style tools. No blowtorch, no heat gun, no c-clamps or any of that modern stuff.


Late 1800's bows were made with bandsaws and bowyers have always used clamps and vices to hold the bow while working, as well as heat.


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## lonewolf88 (Feb 22, 2016)

True, but I am not looking for a quick finish. I do not mind waiting a week for arrows and 3 weeks for a bow. (weather dependent of course.) natural fire or a medieval forge over heat guns and such for me.


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## maddog20/20 (Oct 13, 2015)

lonewolf88 said:


> the fact I only get one practice session a month.


That is why you fail
- Yoda


That's not a fact. That's a choice you make. You've been given countless suggestions to overcome this particular ankle-high hurdle. You could practice literally every single day if you wanted to. Every. Single. Day.

People that "love archery" find a way. I found a way living in a freaking cheap one bedroom apartment in college. I got a large styrofoam block from the local farm supply store (the ones they use to cushion large items on their trucks, they literally give them away...as in for free, as in "please take these from our store so we don't have to dispose of them") and put it on my far wall of my bedroom and shot from next to the front door...a distance of 13yds. More than enough to form practice.

I've been keeping it light, but I'm honestly getting tired of your "I just can't" attitude. You're ignoring advice, totally denying what's plain to see (here's a picture of me at full draw...well, now I changed my mind, it's a picture inexplicably taken with me at 80% draw), saying you want a mentor and then getting pissed off saying you don't need a teacher, saying you need a ride everywhere and then saying you don't, saying you're going to hunt turkeys now and then whitetail and even freaking BEARS later in the year and THEN saying you're not REALLY going to hunt this year...I mean, come on, man.

You tell the dozens of people on here to stop making assumptions, but we're NOT. We're reading your posts, taking our time to post what have amounted to fairly voluminous EXCELLENT posts from people who do this for a living (thanks, Kagan since you were never actually told that) and all it's doing is pissing you off. I'm sorry that a world-wide internet archery forum isn't the place to meet people that not only live next door, but have free hunting land for you to use AND are willing to drive you to it allowing you to butcher the hell out of everything that you try to kill. Truly, I am...but it's just not.


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## Attack (Oct 25, 2011)

Why do you insist you need a 3d turkey to practice turkey hunting? Do you believe the medieval archers had 3d turkeys to shoot at? You don't need to practice shooting at a turkey, you need to practice shooting... Get a box! Fill it with free stuff! Shoot it... Do you have a pencil??? Draw a turkey on the box... Whoa... Wait?! Draw?! Drawing stuff on boxes is not true medieval... No way am I doing that... Lol

Stop being so arrogant, swallow some pride and just start doing some of the things we suggest so you can get closer to your goal and start actually having fun.... Not just frustrated.

Sent from my LG-D959 using Tapatalk


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## maddog20/20 (Oct 13, 2015)

Attack said:


> Not just frustrated.
> 
> Sent from my LG-D959 using Tapatalk


Or frustratING...and apparently you forgot that they didn't have pencils in the Medieval Era. He has to shoot the turkey first, THEN get the quill, THEN catch an octopus to procure the ink, THEN draw the turkey target on the box so he can practice enough to hit a turk....wait a minute, I think I see the problem here....


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## grantmac (May 31, 2007)

Arrow placement doesn't matter if you can't place your arrows.


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## Maddmartagan (Feb 13, 2015)

lonewolf88 said:


> I do not. There is no better show of pride, than taking the time to make something with your own hands, with 1800s or medieval style tools. No blowtorch, no heat gun, no c-clamps or any of that modern stuff.


You don't want to use c-clamps or any of that "modern stuff" because there "is no better show of pride" yet you want someone with a car to drive you around? Do you see a problem here?


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## MiStickSlinger (Mar 15, 2013)

Am I the only one who sees the irony in someone so dependent on others with the name "lone wolf"


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## Easykeeper (Jan 2, 2003)

lonewolf88 said:


> How exactly would a box or haybale help me practice accuracy for or to the intended game I want to hunt? a box or haybale is larger than the kill/vital areas of any game animal.


This has to be one of the most ridiculous things I've read online. I've been an archer for about 50 years, a bowhunter for at least half of that and have never owned a 3D animal target.


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## Hank D Thoreau (Dec 9, 2008)

Was this thread really worth 143 posts...ugh, damn, make that 144.


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## Longbowfanatic (Mar 5, 2016)

I posted once before this, and after I read some of the posts that followed, I decided to move on. I wish Lonewolf the best, but it will be an uphill battle to say the least.


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## maddog20/20 (Oct 13, 2015)

Easykeeper said:


> This has to be one of the most ridiculous things I've read online. I've been an archer for about 50 years, a bowhunter for at least half of that and have never owned a 3D animal target.


Yes, it'd be a real shame to waste all of that time perfecting form or shooting at a small piece of paper stuck in the bale. If it's not a 3D target, I just don't know WHAT you do. I mean, I shot for 35 years without one and I've killed more game than I can keep track of...but just think if I'd had 3D targets!


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## oldmand (Aug 18, 2015)

If there truly is a God, HE will not let this thread die. I've been depressed lately but reading the posts here have given me a reason to rise every morning. And that one from MiStick about the irony of the handle Lonewolf is absolutely priceless. Do not go away Lonewolf.


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## Attack (Oct 25, 2011)

Get any turkeys?

Sent from my LG-D959 using Tapatalk


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## benofthehood (May 18, 2011)

Hey fella's ... Ease up.

To the OP ... There is a bunch of good advice being sent around here .

Re - getting assistance.

There is a fella who use be able to help. He put adds in the paper for stuff like this . His name is the Equlaizer , and he looks a little bit like Edward Woodward.

If not, try Chuck Norris , he has access to 357 Magnums , and going by "Missing in Action" he knows his way around the woods. Short of that , a toot on the Horn of Gondor may alert Legolas to your dilemma.


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## tatwell (Jun 14, 2016)

Well guys, I read all of the posts, I agree it's entertaining hate to see it end. Isn't there a Primitive Archery forum somewhere on the net that he could join, seems like that may be more inline with his interests, except for him improving his shooting.


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## webster2 (Nov 24, 2013)

Some good posts and opinions given above, but for some others I have to wonder how many have actually hunted with a traditional bow. And of those how many have actually taken large game with one. And of those, how many believe that shooting light target arrows repetitively into paper circles while standing perfectly comfy, probably in their back yard lawn or favorite archery clubhouse, constitutes a common-sense test for defining level of readiness to hunt with their bow. Have to wonder.

Lonewolf88, before seriously considering hunting it might be helpful find someone locally with actual experience in hunting/taking game with trad bows. They'll be able to show you the things that are important. Shooting from long-range with a target bow and arrow setup isn't one of them.


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## kegan (Aug 28, 2006)

webster2 said:


> Some good posts and opinions given above, but for some others I have to wonder how many have actually hunted with a traditional bow. And of those how many have actually taken large game with one. And of those, how many believe that shooting light target arrows repetitively into paper circles while standing perfectly comfy, probably in their back yard lawn or favorite archery clubhouse, constitutes a common-sense test for defining level of readiness to hunt with their bow. Have to wonder.


It's a basic progression, no different than learning how to crawl, then walk, and finally run. Start light, develop a base of accuracy, then progress up to a hunting weight at the same level of accuracy. It's not the only form of practice and I don't think anyone ever suggests that. There's no wonderment. If you can't be consistent enough with your hunting bow to keep your arrows inside an 8" circle on paper when all the other variables are removed then you are banking on luck. 

As someone who had to pay their dues on paper before being able to consistently kill game, it's pretty straight forward and effective test.


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## webster2 (Nov 24, 2013)

Doing well while practicing leisurely long-range shooting at blue dot targets or foam does not reflect a readiness to hunt. Can you shoot consistently or recognize your limitations when sitting down, kneeling, in a tight blind, in cold weather, when wet or hot, when stiff from long hours on stand, when leaning around a tree, from a treestand or elevated position, with straight or canted bow, under stress, in dim light, on a moving or angled animal, or in some combination of these situations? Do you ever practice this type of shooting? If so, how'd ya' do on those chip-shot 30-40 yarders that everyone with a light target bow and plenty of stance options seems to regard as easy-peezy? Can you hit that blue dot white ring (or for that matter, an 8" circle) shooting like that? How many 'just like shooting a paper target while standing straight up' opportunities do you think might occur while actually hunting?

Not to make fun of those who love to shoot paper, but the only true way to learn how to prepare for shots under hunting conditions is to either hunt (learning by doing) or to practice shooting as if you ARE hunting. Preparation has to be relative to the objective. 

The poster asked for help in preparing to hunt. Target line shooting practice may be helpful for developing one's personal satisfaction with hitting paper and foam, but if that's what you're counting on for being 'hunting ready' with your bow....well good luck.


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## stringstack (Jun 10, 2016)

webster2 said:


> Doing well while practicing leisurely long-range shooting at blue dot targets or foam does not reflect a readiness to hunt. Can you shoot consistently or recognize your limitations when sitting down, kneeling, in a tight blind, in cold weather, when wet or hot, when stiff from long hours on stand, when leaning around a tree, from a treestand or elevated position, with straight or canted bow, under stress, in dim light, on a moving or angled animal, or in some combination of these situations? Do you ever practice this type of shooting? If so, how'd ya' do on those chip-shot 30-40 yarders that everyone with a light target bow and plenty of stance options seems to regard as easy-peezy? Can you hit that blue dot white ring (or for that matter, an 8" circle) shooting like that? How many 'just like shooting a paper target while standing straight up' opportunities do you think might occur while actually hunting?
> 
> Not to make fun of those who love to shoot paper, but the only true way to learn how to prepare for shots under hunting conditions is to either hunt (learning by doing) or to practice shooting as if you ARE hunting. Preparation has to be relative to the objective.
> 
> The poster asked for help in preparing to hunt. Target line shooting practice may be helpful for developing one's personal satisfaction with hitting paper and foam, but if that's what you're counting on for being 'hunting ready' with your bow....well good luck.


I agree with you, but shooting targets stationary is considered a fundamental. If you can't shoot stationary than you can't shoot from all of those different positions that you mentioned. Once someone get's good at shooting an 8" or smaller target from within say 20 yards then they should get comfortable taking it to the next level and shooting the same target from within those 20 yards from all of those positions that you mentioned.


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## Halfcawkt (Dec 27, 2015)

I am shocked this has reemerged. It was a long, painful ordeal while it was happening. I do not relish the return of lonewolf.


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## Hank D Thoreau (Dec 9, 2008)

lonewolf has no activity since 4/16. Maybe he finally found what he was looking for. I was surprised this came back again. It is time it drops off the front page forever.


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## kegan (Aug 28, 2006)

Webster2, take a deep breath and relax. We're all on the same side here. I get that you don't want people heading out into the woods without preparing themselves sufficiently but you're missing the point. You're also taking, and making, things personal when you have no business doing so. You do realize I'm just a hunter, right? That I shoot foam and paper in the off season to prepare for killing animals? You do realize that I actually KILL animals with my longbows, right?

First, I don't see where you're getting this 30-40 yard chip shot nonsense. We're talking about shooting at 20 yards, which is a pretty good average for hunting. Stand in one spot and put your arrows in the same spot. If you can't, your consistency is crap. If you can't be consistent when things are easy, you probably won't be when they get harder (ie. real world hunting situation). We're also not talking about practicing exclusively with ultra light gear, either. Like lifting weights, you start light weights with good form and move up from there. The first goal is being able to shoot a 240 with his hunting gear. That's not the final test of skill; it's just the beginning.

Second, I literally posted, "It's not the only form of practice and I don't think anyone ever suggests that." You seem to be getting awfully upset for having not bothered to even read my post. As stringstack said you move onto unorthodox positions and situations _after_ you have the fundamentals down. Surely you can agree for the need to learn the basics first? Adjusting for elevation, varying degrees of cant, etc. is a simple matter once you have the fundamentals down and are consistent in your shooting. Of course you prepare yourself for what you're going to encounter in the field, but when the OP seems to be having trouble *hitting* a life size foam animal that isn't trying to run away from him, how in the heck is he supposed to suddenly make a_ clean shot _in the woods where things just get harder?

This is the problem with this whole "target vs. hunting" nonsense. Life's not an "either or" like that. You shouldn't just be allowed but _encouraged_ to do both.


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## Halfcawkt (Dec 27, 2015)

kegan said:


> Webster2, take a deep breath and relax. We're all on the same side here. I get that you don't want people heading out into the woods without preparing themselves sufficiently but you're missing the point. You're also taking, and making, things personal when you have no business doing so. You do realize I'm just a hunter, right? That I shoot foam and paper in the off season to prepare for killing animals? You do realize that I actually KILL animals with my longbows, right?
> 
> First, I don't see where you're getting this 30-40 yard chip shot nonsense. We're talking about shooting at 20 yards, which is a pretty good average for hunting. Stand in one spot and put your arrows in the same spot. If you can't, your consistency is crap. If you can't be consistent when things are easy, you probably won't be when they get harder (ie. real world hunting situation). We're also not talking about practicing exclusively with ultra light gear, either. Like lifting weights, you start light weights with good form and move up from there. The first goal is being able to shoot a 240 with his hunting gear. That's not the final test of skill; it's just the beginning.
> 
> ...


Keegan just layed out some really good stuff right there.

I agree with you whole heartedly. Any type of target shooting is just a means for the "Hunter" to hone his baseline skills. If he doesn't choose to do so, he may be flirting with foolishness. 

By the same token, a man that only shoots paper from an ideal, static position will find himself ill prepared once he finds himself in the deer woods.


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## keb (Jul 17, 2007)

The only way 2 prepare for trad hunting is to practice, everyone has a duty to become as good as they can out of respect for the animals.

Shot paper,foam what ever you can, no real way to duplicate shooting at live animals. You gain that thru doing it and being close to the animals an learning where the vitals are.

I was an excellent shot on paper and foam and had 2 decades of harvest with modern compounds, but I had a rough start in trad and made some poor shots. I learned from them and changed things in my shooting 2 minimize that from reoccurring.

Study deer pictures learn to focus on the crease, hairs, hairs out of place on their coats, watch live deer in parks and subra an areas and learn to pic spots on them, I do this every chance I can.

More than one way 2 skin a cat, but learning to shot properly is the base line, and it's more ethical to do that on paper, and go from there.

I personally don't shot paper or foam much anymore, stumping proved to be what works for me in practice.


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## lonewolf88 (Feb 22, 2016)

Been busy; dealing with alot. Heres some updates.


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## lonewolf88 (Feb 22, 2016)

*Been busy with alot, update.*


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## lonewolf88 (Feb 22, 2016)

Notice how I not only got better; but all shots are lethal and/or will cause paralysis. Spine shots, neck, heart/lung. 

I got much better, but the bow broke months ago. Missing the bow season for deer this year; cant afford a new longbow. Who needs guns with groupings this tight?


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## grantmac (May 31, 2007)

Neck and spine shots are NOT good shots.


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## bobnikon (Jun 10, 2012)

I am not sure why I read the first 4 pages of this thread, but I think this was just another avatar of stringstack. I could be wrong, but he really seemed to have a lot of the same "notions" about archery, and didn't actually want advice, at least in the first 4 pages.


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## Hank D Thoreau (Dec 9, 2008)

We need a moderator, or lonewolf to close this post. There is too much old negative baggage. If lonewolf is looking for advice, it would probably be better to start a new post. He needs a do over. But he needs to be more receptive to comments.


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## lonewolf88 (Feb 22, 2016)

Spine shot=paralysis, no suffering as they can't feel and I can dispatch the deer if need be with a knife. Neck; if it hits the right area, cuts off breathing and also drops the deer quickly.


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## Keeshond (Sep 13, 2016)

lonewolf88 said:


> Spine shot=paralysis, no suffering as they can't feel and I can dispatch the deer if need be with a knife. Neck; if it hits the right area, cuts off breathing and also drops the deer quickly.


This is stringstacker/JamesThom back again.

OMG


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## BarneySlayer (Feb 28, 2009)

Keeshond said:


> This is stringstacker/JamesThom back again.
> 
> OMG


I'm going to give Keeshond the wise man hat for the day.

The level of 'tard is just too blatant to be real. I would expect something just a _little_ more subtle.


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## kegan (Aug 28, 2006)

lonewolf88 said:


> Spine shot=paralysis, no suffering as they can't feel and I can dispatch the deer if need be with a knife. Neck; if it hits the right area, cuts off breathing and also drops the deer quickly.


Do you have your hunting license yet?

PA requires you pass a hunter education class before you can get a license, although that might be an age-based program. What sort of requirements are there in NC?


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## lonewolf88 (Feb 22, 2016)

Have had my license for over a year now; with bear stamp.


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## JParanee (Oct 13, 2009)

Please don't shoot deer In the neck or spine on purpose 

It is far from a reliable shot and will usually lead to problems


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## emrah (Aug 28, 2012)

I can't believe this thread is still going.

Emrah 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Easykeeper (Jan 2, 2003)

lonewolf88 said:


> Have had my license for over a year now; with bear stamp.


Don't you have to buy a license every year?


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## cjohnsjf (Feb 27, 2010)

I think lonewolf is just jerking all you chains. This thread should be closed.


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## benofthehood (May 18, 2011)

Keeshond said:


> This is stringstacker/JamesThom back again.
> 
> OMG


Nope ..
He is postin on TG as Forestdweller


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