# Paper tune - Nock is always right. Help Please!



## shoff14 (May 2, 2005)

Fletching contact with the cables maybe. 

or 

center shot is to far to the right. 

just a couple of guesses.


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## songdogshooter (Jan 18, 2005)

bivy said:


> 06 Allegiance 28 inch, 70#, D loop, Drop Zone, Axis 400 @ 27 inches.
> 
> I get a - tip left, nock right, tear no matter what the position of the rest?
> 
> ...



1. increase your draw weight 

2. move rest to the left 

3. use heavier points 

4.use a lighter spined arrow 

5. use longer arrows if possible

hope this helps ya ! ! ! ! :wink:


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## shoff14 (May 2, 2005)

oh, and you probably should be shooting 340's


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## bivy (Dec 14, 2005)

> Fletching contact with the cables maybe.
> 
> or
> 
> center shot is to far to the right.


I have cock feather out to give the best clearence for cables. ??

I have adjusted the rest as far right and left as it can go. The best I get is 1/2" tear *RIGHT* - the tear is always tear right.

And shooting 85 grn tip.

Thanks - I will try cock feather up.



> 1. increase your draw weight
> _I shoot 70 lbs and will be droping to 60 due to age before to long. Why?_
> 
> 2. move rest to the left
> ...


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## catdaddy (Aug 8, 2003)

Couldn't his draw be to long if he is a righty?


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## BlueRidge (Dec 12, 2005)

*torque*

Have seen this caused by torque in the grip. Remove the grip and shoot just to see what happens. If it works go to a 2 piece side plate type grip.


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## Donhudd (Sep 21, 2002)

I would suggest that the cause is hand torque. To check, have someone else (someone who gets good tear from his own bow) shoot the bow to see if they get the same results as you do. 
I recently experienced an excellent shooter trying to get a good paper tear and could not. His dad and I both shot a bullethole with his bow even though neither of us can come close to matching his scores. His problem was that his grip on the bow was creating torque.


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## bivy (Dec 14, 2005)

*No contact*

Guys - I have been at this for a week. My hunting partner has the exact same setup in a 27.5 inch dl. *Three people* including the pro shop owner who installed the drop zone and is on their shooting staff has shot this bow and the other one. EVERYTHING is perfectly level tear right. Hand torque would show as a vertical tear and does occasionally but all three of us can shoot our old bow immediately after and get bulletholes. Could the grip difference be that much? One bow is a new XT, one a HC, and a Parker. All three of us can shoot bulletholes out of the other bows?????

Last night I rotated the nock and sprayed with powder. I can't see any contact. The rest does come up at about 1.5 inches before full draw but the drop zone needs a longer pull than most fallaways. ?????

We mounted a trophy taker on my buddies. Technician did NOT tye it in 6 inches below (I would say closer to 2 inches) but we got the same results - perfectly level - tear right.

I had the GK TKO fallaway mounted on mine - same results but a little more wild because I could not get complete fletching clearance.

Thanks for trying to figure this one out  I'm stumped. Tonight I will try a heavier point and strip one down to a bare shaft. Can anyone tell me if the TAP program says I have the right spine? Sounds crazy to shoot a .5 spine out of this bow but your advice is appreciated :beer: 

THANK YOU ALL!!!


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## bullethole (Mar 22, 2005)

What kind of rest are you shooting. The rest companies have had to make changes to give some of the bowtechs enough windage left (for RH Shooter). You may need a spacer or adapter from the rest company.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

*85 gn tip ok for Easton Axis 400s*



bivy said:


> Guys - I have been at this for a week.
> 
> Last night I rotated the nock and sprayed with powder. I can't see any contact. The rest does come up at about 1.5 inches before full draw but the drop zone needs a longer pull than most fallaways. ?????
> 
> ...


400 spine Easton Axis 400s where end of shaft to end of nock groove is 
27 inches and tip weight is 85 grains spines aok for a 70lb draw 2006 Allegiance. FOC IS 8.8% and weight is 3-inch duravanes.

Assuming you are using a release. You can use arrow wraps to stiffen the dynamic spine a tad.

Eastons Axis 340s would need a 150 gn tip.

Have you tried walkback tuning to set your centershot and windage? I usually advise folks to use walkback tuning to set centershot and windage first. 

I also advise folks to set nocking point height by firing a bareshaft at a foam target or a straw bale at shoulder height (so arrow is level at launch) at a distance of 10 feet. Check the angle of the arrow in the straw bale with a carpenters level. 

Adjust nock point up if the tail of the shaft is low.

Adjust the nock point down if the tail of the shaft is high.

After you have set the nock point with a bare shaft...
After you have set centershot and windage with walkback tuning...
After you have confirmed no arrow contact with spray foot powder...

Then, if you are so inclined, try paper tuning.

If paper tuning is performed last, then you can only look for form errors

PS: Walkback tuning will tell you very quickly if you need a shim or spacer for your arrow rest.

nuts&bolts.


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## BowTechNician (Jan 4, 2006)

*paper tune*

Look at the basics first , check brace hight , axle to axle, and tiller. Next check to make sure the control cables are routed properly. The control cable for the bottom cam should be to the inside ( furthest from the gaurd). Also make sure the teflon cam spacers are equal on both cams and spaced the same on each side.
Hope this helps
Regards


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## songdogshooter (Jan 18, 2005)

bivy said:


> I have cock feather out to give the best clearence for cables. ??
> 
> I have adjusted the rest as far right and left as it can go. The best I get is 1/2" tear *RIGHT* - the tear is always tear right.
> 
> ...



i am so sorry if you dont agree 

the info i gave you came from mathews 

good luck and fairwell! ! ! !


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## Bow1 (Sep 14, 2004)

*I pmed you*

Let me know if it helps.

Keith


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## deerhuntalotdee (Mar 2, 2005)

*same problem*

i do know what you are going thru. i have the equalizer and have done everything like you with the same results. i did find that after i got the 27'' mods that the extra 1/2'' of draw cut in half the tear right which means arrow spine is toooo stiff . i to don't want to mess around with different arrow weights. two arrows can weigh the same but have a different arrow spine because of the thicknes of the shafts and stuff. i shot the carbon express maxima 250 at 7.3 grains per inch last year and they worked great out of my allegiance. this year its the equalizer and these will not work (dang it) for this bow the carbon express cx 200 arrows are also 7.3 grains per inch. i just hate to buy 12 until i know for sure they will work.you might have to get different arrows and it sucks but you will shoot great or better with the right arrows. let us know what happens ok? good luck


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## Joseph McCluske (Jun 8, 2005)

Not meaning any bowtech bashing but a local pro shop I deal with had to send a new bow back last week because of excessive cam lean and neither the buyer or either of the shop owners could make the tear better. They tried all different arrows and tips but nothing worked. The cam lean only happened while the bow was at full draw. I think bowtech is replacing the bow...


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## PA.JAY (May 26, 2004)

after i put new string & cable on I been having the same problem . the single most important thing is nocking point it has to be perfect! I was going for nock high but i was always getting tail right & high. I got perfect 1 inch right tear moved the rest a little just touched it perfect hole. im useing 22's @ 60 pounds spine is'nt a issue.


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## kyost (Aug 16, 2004)

I too have had the problem with this type of flight out of my 3-D bows. I have always ended up shooting the bows with less than perfect arrow flight and I can't say it effects my accuracy greatly. You can either spend all of your time shooting through paper or shooting at targets; I choose targets!


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## TAYLOR CO. (Jun 9, 2005)

I have been plagued by the same thing! The guy that set it up gets a perfect tear... I have never had a problem paper-tuning...
I shot alot today trying to straighten it out and at 40-yds. no matter low&left Oh well let the good times roll!
But I feel your pain!


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## dtrkyman (Jul 27, 2004)

i could not get rid a left tear with my switchback last year till i went to a fixed rest instead of a dropaway,have you tried a fixed rest?


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## Zen Archery (Jul 27, 2004)

IMHO walk back tuning is the best way to check knock level. paper tuning has its place but the smallest and i mean the smallest imperfection with wind, hand torque, etc.. will cause it to tear wrong.


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## Nightimer (Jan 22, 2003)

I went through the same thing with my Old Glory.
I tried 3 different arrow spines and had the arrow rest as far out as it would go with the same result.
I went back to the shop to see if they could fix it.
First thing before the paper test was they removed the sight and stabilizer as these cover up any torque issuses.
They set the nocking point at 90 degrees and perfect centre shot with a laser.
We all shot through the paper from 3 feet .
The arrows were my "nomal" arrows used on all my bows, 27inches long acc 328 with a 100 grain point.
We all had the same result (we all shot my bow as this almost rules out hand torque).
After 2 hours they found the problem - MY ARROWS WERE TOO SHORT !!
They made up the identical arrow 1 and a 1/2 inches LONGER and bingo a perfect bullet hole.
They did explain the reason and it was something to do with the arrow nodes !!.
People tend to shoot arrows which are"JUST" long enough (my point was nearly on the arrow rest) and this was a big mistake.
The trick is to get arrows longer than you need and cut the down as you paper test.
They say that this has more effect than point weight.
The also said that the Old Glory seems to like a whippier shaft.
All I know is that my Old Glory now shoots much better than it did(this went on for a month and I was going to throw the bow in the trash) as my Sceptre was outshooting it every time with the same arrows.

Good luck
Nightimer


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## Jabwa (Dec 10, 2004)

Two most likely possibilities that I would try: It may be a spine issue. I would go to the 340's and add or subtract 1" in shaft length. Length of arrow affects the spine more than anything else in my experience. The second problem may be with the fallaway. Except for hunting where vane clearance with 5" helical fletched vanes is a problem, fallaway rests offer absolutely no advantage and create massive setup problems. If you do a search on fall away rests on AT, you will find that the Pros are recommending that the rest drops just before the vanes reach the rest. Why? They feel the rest needs to remain in place TOO PROVIDE ADEQUATE ARROW GUIDANCE! So the only function of a fallaway, then, is to provide for vane clearance, and this can be performed quite easily with a Pro Tuner or any similar style arrow rest. For this reason, I would try another non-fall away arrow rest to see what happens. Please let me know the results.


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## IlBuckMaster (Nov 14, 2005)

*The Way To Fix IT*

We were suffering from the same problem shooting a 29 inch 60 lb allegiance with 400 st axis. First thing we noticed that the bow tunes the best if shot as close to the shelf as possible without fletching contact. Secondly on All Bowtechs you need a rest with extra windage the drop zone gives you this by simply placing the rest in the far right hole which puts the v in the rest about 1/4" to 1/2" away from the lip on the shelf this gave us a perfect bullet hole. also listen to bow technician check all of the bushings and look for cam lean. Bowtech have cam lean to compensate for a bad center shot. Also for a 70 lb. pull you need to be shooting a 340 the spine rating is the best according to easton, and archer's advantage arrow selector. If none of this works just try group tuning as long as your hitting the same spot every time your fine however your broadheads won't shoot the same as field points until you have micro tuned the rest


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## Joseph McCluske (Jun 8, 2005)

IlBuckMaster said:


> We were suffering from the same problem shooting a 29 inch 60 lb allegiance with 400 st axis. First thing we noticed that the bow tunes the best if shot as close to the shelf as possible without fletching contact. Secondly on All Bowtechs you need a rest with extra windage the drop zone gives you this by simply placing the rest in the far right hole which puts the v in the rest about 1/4" to 1/2" away from the lip on the shelf this gave us a perfect bullet hole. also listen to bow technician check all of the bushings and look for cam lean. Bowtech have cam lean to compensate for a bad center shot. Also for a 70 lb. pull you need to be shooting a 340 the spine rating is the best according to easton, and archer's advantage arrow selector. If none of this works just try group tuning as long as your hitting the same spot every time your fine however your broadheads won't shoot the same as field points until you have micro tuned the rest


Nice post, honest and covers the solutions...


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## doogy_7 (Aug 5, 2003)

IlBuckMaster said:


> We were suffering from the same problem shooting a 29 inch 60 lb allegiance with 400 st axis. First thing we noticed that the bow tunes the best if shot as close to the shelf as possible without fletching contact. Secondly on All Bowtechs you need a rest with extra windage the drop zone gives you this by simply placing the rest in the far right hole which puts the v in the rest about 1/4" to 1/2" away from the lip on the shelf this gave us a perfect bullet hole. also listen to bow technician check all of the bushings and look for cam lean. Bowtech have cam lean to compensate for a bad center shot. Also for a 70 lb. pull you need to be shooting a 340 the spine rating is the best according to easton, and archer's advantage arrow selector. If none of this works just try group tuning as long as your hitting the same spot every time your fine however your broadheads won't shoot the same as field points until you have micro tuned the rest


On that bow the windage is set to extreme left. Last windage mark on the DropZone. For right handed bow, nock arrow and grab a tape measure. Measure from the right side of the riser to center of the arrow. Should be 1 7/8". This should get you closer. It shot a bullet hole first time. Havent group tuned, or walkback yet.

Front to back the rest is 1/4" from rest to back of riser using the last bolt hole.


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## bivy (Dec 14, 2005)

Thanks for everyones advice and all the PMs! Great advice!

What I have found: There is nothing wrong with this bow. For anyone that sets one of these up you will notice that centershot is NOT the place to start. The binary cam causes you to set the rest out farther than centershot. This makes it very difficult to get a bullet hole out of the 06 Allegiance - I can get about 1 in 3 now that it is set as close as possible. If you are able to get about 1/2 inch tear right - stop there. That is as close as it will get due to the fact that the cam is offset left from dead center. 
This thing shoots great beyond 5 yrds. It is kind of scary knowing that the arrow is coming off slightly cocked to the left but I have shot broadheads at all distances now and they also fly great. For those of you trying to deal with this PM me if you need any help.

Hand Torque is very touchy when paper tuning these due to the string - centershot issue. I ended up finding the perfect setting by walk back tuning the bow. Once I got that I attempted paper tune again and was able to get bulletholes - Very touchy though at paper. 

Thanks again to all!!! This thing is unbelievable at 50 - 60 yards compared to my old bow. I have had to move my pins a huge amount.


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## bivy (Dec 14, 2005)

> 400 spine Easton Axis 400s where end of shaft to end of nock groove is
> 27 inches and tip weight is 85 grains spines aok for a 70lb draw 2006 Allegiance. FOC IS 8.8% and weight is 3-inch duravanes.
> 
> Assuming you are using a release. You can use arrow wraps to stiffen the dynamic spine a tad.
> ...


This guy is a genious - THANK YOU!!!


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

*Me? A genius? Not really. Archers helping archers, yup.*

Bivy:

Glad to help.

nuts&bolts.


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