# New Shooter Form Check...Be Gentle...



## aread (Dec 25, 2009)

The biggest thing I see is your bow shoulder. A bow shoulder that's solidly down is a lot more stable. And once you adapt to a low shoulder it's a lot more comfortable and give you better leverage to pull through during shot execution.

You have a closed stance which means that your left foot is further forward than your right. In your case, it looks like this is how you have adapted to your bow's draw length being too long. 

Your release is too long. You want it to be short enough to be able to curl your index finger around it. That way you can use your back to execute the shot rather than your finger. This is to avoid anticipation. It's easy to anticipate the explosion of the shot when you are triggering with your finger. Using your back, there is less chance of anticipation. Also if you are pulling with your back muscles, you will be more steady than if you are just using your arms and shoulders.

How do you commit to release the arrow? Do you hit the trigger as the sight pin is approaching the X? 

Hope this helps,
Allen


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## BowHunt304 (Feb 1, 2014)

aread said:


> The biggest thing I see is your bow shoulder. A bow shoulder that's solidly down is a lot more stable. And once you adapt to a low shoulder it's a lot more comfortable and give you better leverage to pull through during shot execution.
> 
> You have a closed stance which means that your left foot is further forward than your right. In your case, it looks like this is how you have adapted to your bow's draw length being too long.
> 
> ...


In the picture, my finger isn't rested on the trigger. It is about an inch forward so I didn't punch it and send an arrow across the house. My trigger is usually placed on the meaty part of my finger between my 2nd and 3rd knuckle. Is this proper placement with the finger curled around the trigger? 

In regards to touching off the shot, I have been battling "drive - by" shooting and have been concentrating on letting the pin float and squeezing my back and trusting the float. I'll admit that I still go back to attempting to anticipate the shot at times. 

The bow shoulder element still confuses me. Am I overextended which causes my bow shoulder to rise to compensate for my draw length being too long? I noticed the closed stance as soon as I looked at the picture and from what I had researched I have been thinking my draw length is too long based on Nuts and Bolts' articles. Do you have any idea as to how much I should take off my DL from what the picture shows? I am currently at 31".


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## Huntinsker (Feb 9, 2012)

Initial thoughts are, closed stance, anchor too high, and collapsed bow shoulder and high back shoulder. 

Closed stance will make YOUR DL seem longer while making the BOW DL seem shorter. When on that tile floor, put your right toes over a line a little and put your left toes behind the line a little. This will create a slightly open stance so you can have better alignment without having to contort your upper body as much.

High anchor is caused by your peep being too low in the string. You look like a pretty tall guy compared to that door behind you. Don't worry about touching your nose to the string. With proper form, you may not be able to. I know the Method isn't really a "short" bow by todays standards but you look a little taller than average so with your DL, the string angle may be too severe to touch your nose.

A collapsed or "shrugged" bow shoulder is what happens when you don't have the shoulder aligned correctly in the joint. Keeping it low like when you're standing naturally will allow you to use less muscle to keep it steady. When you collapse your shoulder, you have to use a lot of muscle to keep it from moving a lot even if you don't realize it. This causes shaking and excess pin float that doesn't need to be there. 

The high back shoulder is probably a product of drawing the bow and not re-setting your shoulder low. Ideally your shoulders will not raise up much higher than they are when you're standing relaxed with your hands at your side.


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## aread (Dec 25, 2009)

BowHunt304 said:


> In the picture, my finger isn't rested on the trigger. It is about an inch forward so I didn't punch it and send an arrow across the house. My trigger is usually placed on the meaty part of my finger between my 2nd and 3rd knuckle. Is this proper placement with the finger curled around the trigger? That sounds about right. The idea is to turn your finger into a "steel hook" and pull the trigger into your finger rather than moving your finger into the trigger.
> 
> In regards to touching off the shot, I have been battling "drive - by" shooting and have been concentrating on letting the pin float and squeezing my back and trusting the float. I'll admit that I still go back to attempting to anticipate the shot at times. The more you work on trusting the float and refining your form & execution, the better you will shoot.
> 
> The bow shoulder element still confuses me. Am I overextended which causes my bow shoulder to rise to compensate for my draw length being too long? I noticed the closed stance as soon as I looked at the picture and from what I had researched I have been thinking my draw length is too long based on Nuts and Bolts' articles. Do you have any idea as to how much I should take off my DL from what the picture shows? I am currently at 31". Start with a square stance. That is with the toes of both feet on the line to the target. This is probably not where you will end up, but it provides a constant that allows accurate evaluation of other changes. With a square stance, where is your anchor? It will be a bit further back than it currently is. If you've read nuts&bolts form threads, you know that the nock should be directly under your eye. With the string angle of your bow, it may be a little further back, but try to shorten it to minimize face contact on the string, but still maintain an erect head, balanced over your body mass. This is the most stable. On your shoulders, go to archerytv on youtube. There are dozens of videos of how the best in the world do it. Compare your shoulder to theirs. One archer that you don't want to copy is Reo. He's one of the greatest archers of our time, but doesn't have form that you should copy. It obviously works for him, but it won't for most archers. Levi Morgan, Scott Starnes, Braden Gellenthien & Kendall Woody are a few that will show you how it's done. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xrr4SO-9pNM


Allen


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## BowHunt304 (Feb 1, 2014)

Huntinsker said:


> Initial thoughts are, closed stance, anchor too high, and collapsed bow shoulder and high back shoulder.
> 
> Closed stance will make YOUR DL seem longer while making the BOW DL seem shorter. When on that tile floor, put your right toes over a line a little and put your left toes behind the line a little. This will create a slightly open stance so you can have better alignment without having to contort your upper body as much.
> 
> ...


I will give the square/open stance a shot and post a picture this even with my rear shoulder reset and bow shoulder to where it should be hopefully. Thanks for the advice, Huntinsker.


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## BowHunt304 (Feb 1, 2014)

aread said:


> Allen


Thanks, Allen. You've been super helpful and I really appreciate it. I'll be shooting tonight and I'll update the thread with pictures of the changes you have suggested. Thanks again!


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## BowHunt304 (Feb 1, 2014)

aread said:


> Allen


I have tried to change some things as you guys advised. The owner of my local shop thought a 1/2' off my draw may help with being able to drop my shoulder. I'm also trying to set my release shoulder by squeezing my back. I also squared my stance up. I shot some at 30 yards and it really seems to have helped. My group at 30 yards was about 2.5" on a 2D Elk target. I may have just had a good night of the tweaks may have helped I'm not sure! 

Here's a picture of the few things I've tried to correct. Let me know if it's made a difference!


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## Huntinsker (Feb 9, 2012)

Doesn't look too bad. Hard to tell if your shoulders are still high but it seems like you're "shrugged up". I think if you were to relax your traps and allow your shoulders to come down, you may feel that the DL is a little short. Typically if your bow shoulder is collapsed but you're not leaning back to compensate for other major form flaws, it means that your DL already may be too short forcing you to "shrink" your arm by raising your shoulder high. Collapsing like that makes your arm shorter in relation to the bow DL. 

Stance looks good though.


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## BowHunt304 (Feb 1, 2014)

Huntinsker said:


> Doesn't look too bad. Hard to tell if your shoulders are still high but it seems like you're "shrugged up". I think if you were to relax your traps and allow your shoulders to come down, you may feel that the DL is a little short. Typically if your bow shoulder is collapsed but you're not leaning back to compensate for other major form flaws, it means that your DL already may be too short forcing you to "shrink" your arm by raising your shoulder high. Collapsing like that makes your arm shorter in relation to the bow DL.
> 
> Stance looks good though.


I think my shoulder issue may be a defense mechanism. My body trying to protect my bow shoulder. I had surgery for a full tear of my labrum from college football 6 years ago and it still gives me problems. It may take a bit of work to strengthen my shoulder and correct that aspect of my form.


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## Huntinsker (Feb 9, 2012)

If you have an injury that doesn't allow your shoulders to come down, don't do it. Don't risk injury to shoot a bow. If your shoulders need to be high because that doesn't hurt, shoot with them high. IF you do want to try and get them lower, it might not be a bad idea to go with a very low draw weight to see how it feels. A loop on a Genesis bow turned down to 10lbs may be a good test for you. Just don't hurt yourself.


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## BowHunt304 (Feb 1, 2014)

I'll continue to work on it. I think it's more mental than physical. I'll continue to work on ROM and strengthening it. For now, your advice has given me a good base and something to work for. After all I'm not trying to win a major tournament, it's just more enjoyable to be somewhat proficient at what you like to do. Thanks for the help!


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## aread (Dec 25, 2009)

BowHunt304 said:


> I think my shoulder issue may be a defense mechanism. My body trying to protect my bow shoulder. I had surgery for a full tear of my labrum from college football 6 years ago and it still gives me problems. It may take a bit of work to strengthen my shoulder and correct that aspect of my form.


This is a major consideration. You don't want to do anything that will further injure your shoulder. Have you had physical therapy? Do you do any of the exercises to strengthen your shoulders? What draw weight do you shoot?

Archery can be tough on shoulders. Often we don't even realize that damage is happening. The repetitive nature of archery leads to repetitive stress injuries that can take a long time to heal. And, as I get older, I've learned that this type of injury never fully heals. You may not have any problems for several decades, but it will eventually come back to haunt you. A couple of years ago, I had to start compensating for a knee injury that originally happened in 1964.

You should work one-on-one with a coach who is fully aware of your labrum injury and understands how to protect it.

The USA Archery website has a coach finder feature. Try to find a level 3 or above coach and let them know about the labrum injury from the very beginning.

Hope this helps,

Allen


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## BowHunt304 (Feb 1, 2014)

I had aggressive physical therapy with team doctors and training staff for many months after my surgery. I'm able to do a lot without pain but some things cause pain such as over head lifts and I think that is a ROM issue. I'm able to bench press 335 for reps with little soreness afterwards but I rarely do that because I don't see the need. Point being, the shoulder has issues with some movements and is fine with others due to the nature of the injury. When the injury occurred the shoulder dislocated toward the front (lower arm traveled rearward) so motions behind my back and overhead under tension cause the most soreness/ pain.

Also, I dropped my DW from 60# to 50# to improve form and help muscles critical to archery to help prevent injury due to my body not being used to the stresses of being behind a bow for 50-100 arrows a day or so.

I may need to go to a doctor and possibly have an MRI and X ray to see how my shoulder is holding up and to possibly try to get in with a physical therapist a few times a week.


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## aread (Dec 25, 2009)

I'm no doctor or physical therapist, so take this and use your own judgement to avoid hurting yourself.

Shrugged or high shoulders on either side reduce the range of motion of the shoulders. This leads to decreased stability of your pin. It also decreases your leverage that you need to pull through the shot with a good follow through. A few years ago when Carter first introduced the Evolution release, some archers were having trouble with it in competition. They felt like they were pulling the wheels off their bow, but it wasn't firing. The reason was that they weren't keeping their shoulders down and were losing leverage and range of motion.

Old joke:
Patient "Hey Doc, it hurts when I do this."
Doctor "Well, don't do that!"

If it hurts, don't do it. Protect your shoulders. You already know the pain they can cause you.

JMHO,
Allen


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## montigre (Oct 13, 2008)

I’ve recently had surgery on both of my shoulders and can agree that after 6 years, your current shoulder issue is probably mental. However, that being said, I can also tell from the photo and your comments that you did not continue with the shoulder exercises once you were cleared from physical therapy. Sorry to have to say this, but boring as they may be, those exercises have become a part of the rest of your life if you wish to remain competitive in sports.

Now, shooting in the manner you’re trying now can very quickly lead to another shoulder injury because you’re taking all of the weight of the draw and carrying it through your biceps, traps and delts and not transferring any of the weight into the back at all. 

I strongly recommend that you either borrow a bow with much lighter draw weight (like around 30 pounds) or purchase an inexpensive bow that can adjust downward like the Diamond Infinite Edge and shoot that for two months at 30 pounds with a strong focus on engaging your stronger back muscles during the draw and maintaining that engagement through to the conclusion of your shot—when the arrow hits the target. 

After 2 months at 30 pounds, increase the weight to 35 pounds and shoot that for a month. It will feel like you’re starting all over from the beginning and fighting your body with each weight increase, but you’re retraining the muscles needed to carry the weight of the bow in a safe and efficient manner. 

Continue doing this until you are able to shoot the draw weight you choose with good form and little effort. If you’re able to find a good coach or experienced archer to assist you with this process, that would be the best route to take because you cannot always tell what little tricks your body is playing on you during this retraining process. But you must take this slowly and follow a logical progression to avoid reinjuring your shoulder.


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## BowHunt304 (Feb 1, 2014)

montigre said:


> I’ve recently had surgery on both of my shoulders and can agree that after 6 years, your current shoulder issue is probably mental. However, that being said, I can also tell from the photo and your comments that you did not continue with the shoulder exercises once you were cleared from physical therapy. Sorry to have to say this, but boring as they may be, those exercises have become a part of the rest of your life if you wish to remain competitive in sports.
> 
> Now, shooting in the manner you’re trying now can very quickly lead to another shoulder injury because you’re taking all of the weight of the draw and carrying it through your biceps, traps and delts and not transferring any of the weight into the back at all.
> 
> ...


Point taken. I don't deny neglecting my rehab after I was cleared to play ball again. Unfortunately, I thought it was more important to get my strength back in my major lifts in order to play again and didn't concentrate on what was best for my shoulder. Since I started shooting in October, I have really made a concerted effort to try to get stronger in my shoulders and back but I can always do more.

I have made an appointment with an orthopedic doctor later this week and am hoping to get a good diagnosis and be provided with a proper regimen to strengthen the shoulder, potentially a few trips to PT a week and home exercises. After more research, I think I may have a slight case of tendonitis in my rotator cuff or biceps tendon which is often associated with labrum tears and activities at shoulder height and above. 

I'm going to look into getting a coach here in Morgantown, WV. I think there is one listed on the USA archery coach finder site that may be able to help. If not, I will continue to post to Coaches Corner and maybe expand it into videos of shooting to get further instructuon.


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## BowHunt304 (Feb 1, 2014)

montigre said:


> I’ve recently had surgery on both of my shoulders and can agree that after 6 years, your current shoulder issue is probably mental. However, that being said, I can also tell from the photo and your comments that you did not continue with the shoulder exercises once you were cleared from physical therapy. Sorry to have to say this, but boring as they may be, those exercises have become a part of the rest of your life if you wish to remain competitive in sports.
> 
> Now, shooting in the manner you’re trying now can very quickly lead to another shoulder injury because you’re taking all of the weight of the draw and carrying it through your biceps, traps and delts and not transferring any of the weight into the back at all.
> 
> ...


Just got home from my Ortho. Said I have some rotator cuff tendonitis and prescribed 4 weeks of PT twice a week and an anti inflammatory. Doesn't think anything is torn based on my ROM and pain level after testing strength and motion tests. Seems to think my labrum is holding up well due to the fact that my ROM is stiff. He told me to knock off the over head stuff and take it easy in the weight room! 

Asked specifically about shooting my bow and he said I will be fine to shoot as long as I take it easy and keep up on PT and a home exercise program.

This is definitely a reality check and I'll be keeping up on my ROM and strength exercises from here on out. Glad it's not something worse.

Thanks for the advice guys!


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## Huntinsker (Feb 9, 2012)

Good to hear. Post shoulder surgery healing is an ongoing process. Typically if you don't keep up with it, it comes back around to bite you. Good luck!


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