# Question: Bow not fast enough?



## Nicolesigns (Aug 30, 2010)

I have the 2010 Parker SideKick Extreme. Its set at 25DL 45#. I got it last year, but didn't have an opportunity to shoot a deer. This year, I shot a deer, but the shot was high in the shoulder. My arrow (Carbon Express Mayhem Hot Pursuit) stuck in the deer and then we found it broke off. But didn't find a deer. We took it to the local bow shop made sure everything was on, re-sighted it in (my 20yrd pin was off slightly), etc. Last night, I shot at another deer. I know it hit it, pretty sure it was a good shot. My Lumenock went off on release, but wasn't lit when the deer was running off. The arrow is nowhere to be found. No blood, still no deer. 

So, my question is; is it possible that my bow isn't shooting the arrows fast enough to pass through? I'm losing confidence in this bow very quickly and don't want to go out again and wound a deer. That is NEVER my intention. 

Any advice? Thanks in advance


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## z28melissa (Feb 8, 2007)

How far was the shot? Broadside? Where do you think you hit? What broadheads are you using? The shoulder hit sounds about right... shoulders will stop an arrow dead. But you shouldn't have any problem pulling 45lbs getting arrows to pass through ribs broadside. Keep at it, practice often to maintain confidence in your equipment.


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## Nicolesigns (Aug 30, 2010)

It was broadside about 22 yds. I'm using Muzzy M4s. The shoulder, I figured wasn't the bow. But, the 2nd one, I'm concerned about. I think it was back from the shoulder, more of a lung shot.


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## lschmeltz (Nov 10, 2010)

I have a short DL 24.5 and only pulling 43 lbs this year after a shoulder setback before season. According to the KE calculator I'm shooting 39 ft lbs. While it was sufficient enough to kill a buck, I did not get a pass through, and only sunk the arrow about 8-10". He was slightly quartering at 5 yds and due to the elevation of the stand, I hit about midway between the spine and bottom of belly and about 4" behind his shoulder. I'm not sure what kind of penetration I would have gotten at 20-30 yards.


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## cannonman (Nov 29, 2008)

I'm sure you have enough power to kill a deer with your outfit even if you don't get a pass through. You may not have as much room for error though as some with more power. Keep your broadheads sharp, shots distances short, and make sure you are aiming at a very small spot. You'll be fine.


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## Widgeon (Jul 17, 2009)

Something you may want to consider is going with a CoC blade, maybe even a 2 blade, and make sure they are shaving sharp. Even though the Muzzys are great heads, they do take a little more unf to penetrate than something like a CoC.


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## absolutecool (Mar 26, 2006)

What does you hunting arrow weigh? Just wondering, with broadhead and all.


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## woodsbaby (Aug 10, 2009)

I used to have a 2009 parker sidekick extreme at 23" and 45 ish pounds. I sent many an arrow sailing over a deers back... killed quite a few too... so yeah.. its slow(but yours is faster than mine)... aim lower on the animal than you think you should... lots of things happening when you shoot... that deer is ducking as you shoot your bow. those long draw high poundage bows will bet the arrow there in 20 yards before the deer can duck too much but my parker couldn't ... I had to aim low to combat the slower speed/string jumping, angle of downward shot, and I tend to get excited and forget to bend at waist when shooting from a tree stand.


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## nag (Jun 13, 2007)

In a recent post, I tried to explain why women in particular need to be shooting bows that are as fast as possible.
The poundage you're pulling should be plenty, but the Parker Extreme, (according to their spec sheet) has a top speed, IBO, of 270 @ 5 grains per pound.

I believe you're not getting the pass throughs because your bow simply does not generate enough speed which translates into kinetic energy.
The extra weight of the arrow might make up for the lack of speed but in my opinion, I think you should look for a faster bow.

I too have a short draw lenght and that effects the bows performance as well. You have to realize that the IBO for the Parker was measured at a 28" draw and full poundage; for that bow it's 60 lbs.
At 45 lbs and a 25" D.L..............well, I think I make my point.

Look in the Bowtech line...they consistantly make bows that are fast and accurate; but they're not the only company to do so.
I own 2 Equalizers plus an Allegience, along with 2 Mathews.

I used to hunt with my Mathews, but the Equalizers being a lot faster, have allowed me to make longer shots.
The first Deer I took this year was a 32 yard pass through and the 9 point I took yesterday was a 30 yd shot that pierced the Lungs, Liver and Heart.

I shoot the 3 bladed Muzzy and Gold Tip Velocity arrows. I pay very close attention to the total weight of the arrow and match it's overall lenght to the poundage I'm pulling and tune from there.
I do pull 55 lbs however.
The extra speed makes up for errors on my part in range estimation by keeping the sight pins very close together.

If you can get to a bow shop, you might want to shoot through a chronograph to find out how fast your set up really is. That will tell all.


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## SaltyFLgirl (Aug 23, 2011)

i have the same bow, same draw, same draw weight, i was shooting carbon express which were 9.0 grains per inch, got gold tip ultralights 600's cut at 25.5 inches, they are 5.7 grains per inch and wayyyy faster than the carbon express.


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## Nicolesigns (Aug 30, 2010)

absolutecool said:


> What does you hunting arrow weigh? Just wondering, with broadhead and all.


The arrows are 150 (8 grains per inch) and the broadheads are the 100 grain. Haven't weighed them together though


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## Nicolesigns (Aug 30, 2010)

woodsbaby said:


> I used to have a 2009 parker sidekick extreme at 23" and 45 ish pounds. I sent many an arrow sailing over a deers back... killed quite a few too... so yeah.. its slow(but yours is faster than mine)... aim lower on the animal than you think you should... lots of things happening when you shoot... that deer is ducking as you shoot your bow. those long draw high poundage bows will bet the arrow there in 20 yards before the deer can duck too much but my parker couldn't ... I had to aim low to combat the slower speed/string jumping, angle of downward shot, and I tend to get excited and forget to bend at waist when shooting from a tree stand.


Thanks for the info. I feel like I've always been adjusting something on this bow ever since I got it. I am seriously considering a different bow.


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## Nicolesigns (Aug 30, 2010)

nag said:


> In a recent post, I tried to explain why women in particular need to be shooting bows that are as fast as possible.
> The poundage you're pulling should be plenty, but the Parker Extreme, (according to their spec sheet) has a top speed, IBO, of 270 @ 5 grains per pound.
> 
> I believe you're not getting the pass throughs because your bow simply does not generate enough speed which translates into kinetic energy.
> ...


Thank you for your response. Last year was my first time ever in the woods, so we got this to see if I would even like compound bow hunting. I really prefer it to a crossbow, now that I have tried it. After this week, I've really been comparing IBOs and see how slow it really is. I do need to get in contact with the local shop to see about the chrono. I'm working on getting my poundage up, I know that will help. But, at the same time, it will only get me so far. The bow needs to have a good speed too.


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## woodsbaby (Aug 10, 2009)

Nicolesigns said:


> Thanks for the info. I feel like I've always been adjusting something on this bow ever since I got it. I am seriously considering a different bow.


I bought the heartbreaker this year. its fast and I love it... every deer I shot this year has been a pass through.


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## threetoe (May 13, 2011)

OK..
Here's the facts
2010 Parker SideKick Extreme
IBO = 270
Arrow weight 260 g (approx what you are shooting)
D/L = 25"
Draw weight = 40 LBS
String added weight (peep, d-loop, cat whiskers) = 25 g

Arrow speed = 180 fps
KE = 19 ft lbs

This is your problem.

My wife (x-wife) has a Bowtech Heartbreaker

Her specs. Actual Chronograph numbers.

IBO = not rated
Arrow weight 350 g
D/L = 25"
Draw weight = 40 LBS
String added weight (peep, d-loop, cat whiskers) = 25 g

Arrow speed = 231 fps
KE = 41 ft lbs

That's your answer.
Same draw and poundage as you but TWICE the KE !!!!!

Also try Slick Trick Broadheads. They're a breeze to tune, shoot exactly where your target tips shoot and are dead on out to 90!


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## ttate (Jan 31, 2011)

Just wondering do you have a broadhead target? Shoot your bow into one of those and see how far the arrow sinks in. That might help you decide just how much pop you are really getting.


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## nag (Jun 13, 2007)

threetoe has it right....
the SideKick just doesn't generate enough kinetic energy, period.

Like I mentioned earlier, Bowtech makes fast bows, and one of the best was the Equalizer.
Unfortunalely, Bowtech took it out of their lineup and replaced that model with the Heartbreaker.
Personally, I don't like the shorter axel to axel on the Heartbreaker as compared to the Equalizer, but that's my personal preference.

2008 was the last year the Equalizer was made but some, new in the box can still be found.

Case in point, I bought one from Sportsmans Warehouse only 2 months ago. Had it shipped to Iowa.
Their Provo Utah store had 2 ....I took one of them, and the price was unbelievable...$299.00
This bow sold for over $600.00 in 2008.

Yeah, it's a left over, but tell that to the 9 pointer that fell to it several days ago.

More info about the equalizer....
http://www.archeryhistory.com/techevaluation/2008/BowTech Equalizer - Short Draw.pdf

it was designed especially for short draw shooters; ie women and youths

It's IBO is measured at a 26" D.L., check out the kinetic energy this bow generates at 50 lbs!!!!

The Equalizer is really a "Baby" Allegience. The specs are pretty much the same, although the equalizer has a thinner riser.
IBO is 323-325 fps but that would be @ 70 lbs, 350 grain arrow and 30" D.L.

The Equalizer makes energy the same as the Allegience.

Go to the link I added and check it our for yourself.
This guy tested a Equalizer and it flung and arrow at 282 fps from a 50 lb bow. Kineteic energy was 44.

His numbers are right on because my arrow weights 299 grains. I pull 55 pounds @ 25.5" and my speed is around 264 fps.

I know this is looking like a commercial for Bowtech,,,,,,,,,

I'm just trying to educate you on what to look for.

Some of the other gals may have suggestions for great fast bows too.

All is food for thought.


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## Nicolesigns (Aug 30, 2010)

threetoe said:


> OK..
> Here's the facts
> 2010 Parker SideKick Extreme
> IBO = 270
> ...


That's great info! Thank you! I was looking online today at different bows and the IBOs. The new PSE Rally is one I would like to look at.


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## threetoe (May 13, 2011)

Look at the Bowtech Heartbreaker or a used Bowtech Equalizer.
Both are Binary cam bows


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## XForce Girl (Feb 14, 2008)

nag said:


> threetoe has it right....
> the SideKick just doesn't generate enough kinetic energy, period.
> 
> Like I mentioned earlier, Bowtech makes fast bows, and one of the best was the Equalizer.
> ...


Excellent Info here, I Love Bowtech as well.

For us girls who cannot pull as much weight as the guys or have shorter draw lengths, a "speed" bow is the key to success. Coupled with the correct arrow spine and a really GOOD Cut on Contact broadhead, you'll have much better success.
Everyone has their favorite broadhead but I always try to recommend a COC for those who shoot really low poundage, girls and kids as well. Without that coc, your arrow just loses too much energy while going through the hide. Thus resulting is a possible lost or wounded animal.


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## MonsterMan17 (Dec 19, 2010)

My girlfriend shoots low poundage (37lbs). She's using coc broadhead and got a clean pass through on her deer this year. Slightly quartering away. The broadheads were razor tricks. Arrow weighs about 325 grains with the head. It's not shooting very fast, but keep the shots under twenty five yards and it does the trick. Her first bow kill, I'm so proud.


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## threetoe (May 13, 2011)

X-Force Girl.

I like you

While so many on this board just spread their "opinion" on things, I always choose fact.
I have a 2008 Equalizer Testerosa. I'm drawing 26 1/2 "

My target arrows are 304 grains and at 60 pounds this thing gets 295 fps!

My hunting arrows weigh 333 grains and at 52 pounds they are traveling 265 fps. 54KE too.

My x-wifes Heartbreaker is nothing more than a renamed Equalizer. It's smoother drawing than my Equalizer but performs equally.
The Equalizer is a bit longer ATA.

If I use the actual chronograph speeds that we get and plug them into an archery calculator, to have the calculator calculate the speeds I am actually getting, I need to adjust the IBO setting to 345.
These bows are not IBO rated but if they were it would be about 345.

They are the fastest short draw bows on the market today.

Bill

My recommendation is to sell that bow and get one that won't just wound. 
Those animals deserve our respect and injuring them is NOT acceptable.
The PSE Rally is NOT a fast bow. IBO of 308... Try again


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## XForce Girl (Feb 14, 2008)

Thank you Bill, 
I want everyone to be successful in their archery, hunting or tournaments. 
Finally some companies are making High Performance bows for women or shorter draw archers and yes, performance comes with a pricetag.
I LOVE the Equalizer and was saddened when they discontinued it.
Would be shooting the Heartbreaker myself if I didn't have a 28" draw.


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## threetoe (May 13, 2011)

XForce Girl said:


> Thank you Bill,
> I want everyone to be successful in their archery, hunting or tournaments.
> Finally some companies are making High Performance bows for women or shorter draw archers and yes, performance comes with a pricetag.
> I LOVE the Equalizer and was saddened when they discontinued it.
> Would be shooting the Heartbreaker myself if I didn't have a 28" draw.


WOW !! You must be a tall drink of water.

Really, no bow is women's or men's. It's about draw length.

You need to get yourself an Assassin or an Invasion. You might even get a used Destroyer 350.

That Assassin is a real nice bow for the money.
Considering I'm only 5' 8" , I have a short draw length.

This Equalizer is PERFECT for me.
A month ago I had it completely rebuilt and now I'm real close to having it dialed in.

Bill

And Nicolesigns.. I was NOT trashing you for wounding that Deer. Fact is I bet it breaks your heart. I know it would mine!


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## cannonman (Nov 29, 2008)

Without a doubt, you can get new equuipment that will outperform your old equipment, and maybe you should if your confidence is low in what you are already using. I do know though, that if you get really good with your current setup, let the deer get within your distance zone, and make a good shot you can take a deer with what you have.
Good luck with whatever you decide.


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## XForce Girl (Feb 14, 2008)

threetoe said:


> WOW !! You must be a tall drink of water.
> 
> Really, no bow is women's or men's. It's about draw length.
> 
> ...


Bill, 
Did you read my Signature?? Already have 2 Invasions.
BTW I'm 5'10"

By Womens bows I meant short draw and available in lower poundage. Top of the line models. You know, the good stuff.
Not too long ago you could hardly get a 40-50lb bow or even 30-40 in a "flagship" type bow, women had to suffice with kids bows. 

And Nicolesigns: I did not mean any disrespect at all with your set-up or that you lost a deer. I know you feel bad and I commend you for being brave enough to come on here and admit it and ask for help.


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## c44 (Jan 15, 2011)

My girlfriend is shooting a Diamond Razor Edge and shot a big doe at 20 yards last week. On the shot the arrow was not a complete pass through but did get full penetration and the broadhead was sticking out the other side, eventually slid all the way through and was found after about 30 yards of blood trail. She is shooting easton axis arrows at 25 in. with 125 gr. G5 montecs. Her draw length is 23.5 and draw weight is right around 40-45. I think if you hit the right spot and have a correctly broadhead tuned bow you should be able to get full penetration and possibly even pass throughs. I have no experience with the bow you are speaking of but the main thing is to make sure its all tuned correctly and make sure the arrows are flying as straight as possible. There has been some great advice given but I don't think you need to rush out and buy a $600 bow just to think it will get you more pass throughs. Shoot what you are comfortable with and keep the shots to a reasonable distance and you shouldn't have any trouble killing deer.


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## Spacelord (Jan 1, 2011)

I'm a short guy, and my DL of 26" was either as the bottom of most bows ranges, or completely out of it. So I shoot a Heartbreaker (now also available re-badged as an Assassin SD). At 54# and a 271gr arrow I get 292 FPS. The thing I like best is the solid back wall. You should also consider a New Breed Archery Nemesis or a Darton DS3800-SD.


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## bonecollector66 (Mar 2, 2011)

i had a parker ultralite 31, at 24"dl and 65#
killed 2 deer with it only 1 was a pass through.
i switched to the heartbreaker and it blew away the parker on many levels
its fast , quiet ,and plenty of ke (even with a short draw).
wont be getting rid of mine anytime soon!!


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## Elidafire18 (Sep 22, 2005)

There is enough power behind that bow to kill. Arrow weight and length are key, along with the broadheads. Are your arrows cut to length, or are they longer than need be?


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## Nicolesigns (Aug 30, 2010)

threetoe said:


> X-Force Girl.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Obviously that is NOT acceptable. If it was, I wouldn't be seeking others advice.


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## Nicolesigns (Aug 30, 2010)

I had them cut at Gander Mountain when I got them. I believe they are cut properly. 

My husband and I were talking about it this weekend. We would like to find out the specs that it is shooting at now through the Chrono. Also, maybe try to up the poundage to see if that helps. Lots of options to weigh.

Thannks for all the advice.


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## XForce Girl (Feb 14, 2008)

Nicolesigns said:


> Obviously that is NOT acceptable. If it was, I wouldn't be seeking others advice.


This is not what I said at all. This is someone elses statement, where you inserted my name.


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## threetoe (May 13, 2011)

Nicole.

Believe me that your bow IS NOT a good hunting bow! Not powerful enough. IMO

It has a paltry IBO rating of 270.!

Even Diamonds Razor Edge has an IBO of 308 which is still on the weak side.

Most hunting bows have an IBO in the 333-345 range with the new ones up to 360.!

What that means that when drawing the same poundage we will get you more speed/energy.

My suggestion is to sell that bow and get another.

There is a Bowtech Equalizer on this board for sale. I think he'll take 300 for it. TYD

Nice Christmas gift don't ya think?


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## kimmiedawn (Jun 26, 2006)

your bow would have plenty of thump do do what u need to do. but if u r losin confidence in it then get one u r confident in. For YOU and no one else. everyone has thier oppinion on it all.. The proper arrows and broadheads along with proper shot placement will take em down. There are plenty of Big bows that with improper shot placement will not pass through..


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## Capt'n D (May 15, 2007)

Nothing wrong with the bow. Arrow speed has nothing to do with it. Arrow weight is more important. Try a Muzzy Phantom or a head the likes of.


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## doegirl (Sep 22, 2004)

Capt'n D said:


> Nothing wrong with the bow. Arrow speed has nothing to do with it. Arrow weight is more important. Try a Muzzy Phantom or a head the likes of.


Wrong. It has everything to do with that bow.
Why in the world would anybody suggest that she continue to use a setup that simply won't cut it (pun intended). 
The OP could buy a Bear Apprentice, completely setup, at a big box sporting goods store for less than $300 and would enjoy almost TWICE the amount of KE she's getting from her current setup. Oh yeah it's IBO is appoximately 315fps, 45fps faster than what's she's currently using. Speed does matter.:wink:
A heavier arrow will just drop like a proverbial rock. Why further handicap her?


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## completepassthru (Feb 3, 2008)

I had a girl bring me a bow to set up she bought all on her own. It was a Bear Truth 2 Young Guns. When i finished it was shooting a 310 grain arrow at 226fps at 25/38-40#. She killed 2 deer the first year with Rocky Mtn. Snypers and 2 the next year with Rage 40KE's This year she got a complete passthru on a 130# doe at 35yds. Your bow should be plenty sufficient to kill a deer. I did put speed nocks on her string and boost her speed about 5-6fps. At low poundage every bit helps.


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## doegirl (Sep 22, 2004)

completepassthu said:


> I had a girl bring me a bow to set up she bought all on her own. It was a Bear Truth 2 Young Guns. When i finished it was shooting a 310 grain arrow at 226fps at 25/38-40#. She killed 2 deer the first year with Rocky Mtn. Snypers and 2 the next year with Rage 40KE's This year she got a complete passthru on a 130# doe at 35yds. Your bow should be plenty sufficient to kill a deer. I did put speed nocks on her string and boost her speed about 5-6fps. At low poundage every bit helps.


That sounds very similar to my first setup. A 45lb 2001 Parker Challenger sending a 310gr arrow 215fps. I got a few passthrus, but if I centered a rib, I would barely make it to the second lung. This was with a Muzzy 90grain 4blade head, 1" cut. IMHO, this is barely adequate and the OP has +10lbs less KE than your customer and I.


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## Capt'n D (May 15, 2007)

doegirl said:


> Wrong. It has everything to do with that bow.
> Why in the world would anybody suggest that she continue to use a setup that simply won't cut it (pun intended).
> The OP could buy a Bear Apprentice, completely setup, at a big box sporting goods store for less than $300 and would enjoy almost TWICE the amount of KE she's getting from her current setup. Oh yeah it's IBO is appoximately 315fps, 45fps faster than what's she's currently using. Speed does matter.:wink:
> A heavier arrow will just drop like a proverbial rock. Why further handicap her?


Oh ok so back in the day with recurves and even compounds in the 1980 we were killing the crap out of them with bows that shoot 230 feet per second! Speed is not power. Speed helps make up for misjudging yardage. If I hit you with a bat that weighs 10 lbs it's going to hurt a bunch more then a bat that weighs only 5 lbs. Yep the 5 lb bat will hit you faster but the 10 lb bat is sure going to hurt more. Maybe she needs someone to help her set it up right and help her get it shooting good. She has screwed up on two shots. Probably not the bow or arrows fault! She isn't even sure where the second shot hit the deer. Bad shooting decision maybe?


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## doegirl (Sep 22, 2004)

Capt'n D said:


> Oh ok so back in the day with recurves and even compounds in the 1980 we were killing the crap out of them with bows that shoot 230 feet per second! Speed is not power. Speed helps make up for misjudging yardage. If I hit you with a bat that weighs 10 lbs it's going to hurt a bunch more then a bat that weighs only 5 lbs. Yep the 5 lb bat will hit you faster but the 10 lb bat is sure going to hurt more. Maybe she needs someone to help her set it up right and help her get it shooting good. She has screwed up on two shots. Probably not the bow or arrows fault! She isn't even sure where the second shot hit the deer. Bad shooting decision maybe?


I'll keep this post in mind next time I go deer hunting with a baseball bat.:wink:
The 80's, isn't that a time in archery where people were doing practically ANYTHING to gain speed?
Overdraws, "soda-straw" pultruded carbon arrows with outserts, 80, 90lb draw weights.
Wonder why, back in the day, archers resorted to those measures to increase speeds?
Maybe it has something to do with the fact that what was available at the time had pee-poor performance. Just like what the OP is facing.


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## ttate (Jan 31, 2011)

HMMM wonder how the Indians did it with their primitave long bows and rocks for arrows....I haven't killed with my bow yet, but I think anything is better than what the Indians had so I'm thinking with the proper placement any bow today will kill within reason. Just my 2 cents.


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## Cdpkook132 (Jul 8, 2009)

ttate said:


> HMMM wonder how the Indians did it with their primitave long bows and rocks for arrows....I haven't killed with my bow yet, but I think anything is better than what the Indians had so I'm thinking with the proper placement any bow today will kill within reason. Just my 2 cents.


They did it in groups and ran a lot of the wounded animals down for a killing shot. Usually a group effort.


Sent from my Verizon iPhone using Tapatalk


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## ttate (Jan 31, 2011)

Well then I guess I should start assembling me a group LOL......


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## Capt'n D (May 15, 2007)

doegirl said:


> I'll keep this post in mind next time I go deer hunting with a baseball bat.:wink:
> The 80's, isn't that a time in archery where people were doing practically ANYTHING to gain speed?
> Overdraws, "soda-straw" pultruded carbon arrows with outserts, 80, 90lb draw weights.
> Wonder why, back in the day, archers resorted to those measures to increase speeds?
> Maybe it has something to do with the fact that what was available at the time had pee-poor performance. Just like what the OP is facing.


Yep...LOL
I'm not saying there is anything wrong with speed. What I am saying is that this girl is getting bad advice to buy a new bow when that isn't the problem. She says clearly in her post that one shot was HIGH in the shoulder and the other she didn't even know where the arrow hit. That is no reason to tell someone the bow and arrow is at fault. Unless you own an archery shop and are trying to get a sale...LOL
A slow compound will kill just as dead as a fast one if the arrow is put in the right spot. A new bow will not fix her problem.


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## Capt'n D (May 15, 2007)

doegirl said:


> I'll keep this post in mind next time I go deer hunting with a baseball bat.:wink:
> The 80's, isn't that a time in archery where people were doing practically ANYTHING to gain speed?
> Overdraws, "soda-straw" pultruded carbon arrows with outserts, 80, 90lb draw weights.
> Wonder why, back in the day, archers resorted to those measures to increase speeds?
> Maybe it has something to do with the fact that what was available at the time had pee-poor performance. Just like what the OP is facing.


Oh and there was nothing wrong with the performance back then believe me. Speed makes up for misjudging yardage. When 3D was really big back then the overdraws were used to gain speed for this reason. But it wasn't a good hunting set up.
Arrow weight is what gives the arrow the power to pass through a deer. All the speed does is get it there faster as well as makes up for the yardage you misjudged.
Technology has made up for the overdraw in todays times. Way back in the 80's ( maybe when you were still in diapers, not sure ) we had to put things on our bow to get it.
I have bows from the 80's as well as some new Hoyts. I still hunt with my Hoyt Super Slam Surpreme from way back in the 80's every weekend. Nope it's not fast. But it sure is quiet. And at about 240 feet per second with my 2216 aluminum arrows the deer don't have a chance! Will do just as good a job as your 300+ bow. Arrow will just take longer to get there....LOL


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## tiny52 (Dec 31, 2010)

threetoe said:


> Nicole.
> 
> Believe me that your bow IS NOT a good hunting bow! Not powerful enough. IMO
> 
> ...


While you made a great calculation and showed problems with her set up as it relates to energy.... her set up will kill any deer as it is today.
I have taken more deer with a 160 fps recurve that generates 19 pounds of kinetic energy.....
It is a matter of shot placement with such a bow.
I cant pass through a shoulder with a 450grn. arrow and neither can she.
The bow doesn't weigh into it.
It's the shot placement for this particular bow of her's.



> Most hunting bows have an IBO in the 333-345 range with the new ones up to 360.!
> 
> What that means that when drawing the same poundage we will get you more speed/energy.
> 
> My suggestion is to sell that bow and get another.


Must be nice to be a man huh?.

What about the draw curve for these super bows?.
Remember.... we are talking about a lady here.
While many women can shoot the high break over cams, many more cant
Women's bows are not always women's bows..... you have to shoot what you can draw smoothly and consistently.
So there is much more to getting a good bow, beyond what speed it may or may not generate.


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## tiny52 (Dec 31, 2010)

doegirl said:


> Wrong. It has everything to do with that bow.
> The OP could buy a Bear Apprentice, completely setup, at a big box sporting goods store for less than $300 and would enjoy almost TWICE the amount of KE she's getting from her current setup. Speed does matter.:wink:
> A heavier arrow will just drop like a proverbial rock. Why further handicap her?


Spot on!.

Speed matters as it relates to efficiency or that is to say that no bow can fire an arrow of any weight past it's design
Increasing efficiency increases speed and what you choose to do with that speed is where many people differ.

While speed is a great liberator as to effective range, it is also an enabler for penetration potential when used to launch heavier arrows.
Problem is...you cant have both.

While I have never seen an arrow too light to kill a deer at 280fps... I have seen arrows too heavy to penetrate at 240fps.
K.E. will invert at a certain weight, as it strips velocity and looses KE. at the same time.

I have found 300 - 400grns to be the spread of where any bo shooting 260fps will fully penetrate any whitetail when the shot is well placed.

Don't get caught up in chasing one or the other but rather consider both speed and arrow weight and build the best of both worlds...
Trajectory and K.E.


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## tiny52 (Dec 31, 2010)

Capt'n D said:


> Speed is not power.


Obviously... you cant be serious?!.
Power makes speed.

I have been shooting/hunting with a bow since before Allen made his first prototype, I can assure you that no bow could ever launch an arrow (any arrow) over 300 fps back then...spine be damned.

Today?.... most any bow could drive a 1412 over 300.
Even hers.

Without power (be it derived from weight of the bows limbs, cam design, brace height, etc.) speed cannot be achieved.
Not the speed we are talking about at 300fps.



> Speed helps make up for misjudging yardage. If I hit you with a bat that weighs 10 lbs it's going to hurt a bunch more then a bat that weighs only 5 lbs. Yep the 5 lb bat will hit you faster but the 10 lb bat is sure going to hurt more.



An old analogy that does ring true but not so true that it can be made in this manner.
To prove this....here's one for you.....

If I hand you a 200# sledge hammer and a 3# sledge hammer...which one are you going to knock me out with?

Obviously...you cant even lift a 200# hammer high enough to hit me in the head and if you could lift it...you couldn't swing it fast enough to hit me with it.

See> Dumb analogy.


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## tiny52 (Dec 31, 2010)

ttate said:


> HMMM wonder how the Indians did it with their primitave long bows and rocks for arrows....I haven't killed with my bow yet, but I think anything is better than what the Indians had so I'm thinking with the proper placement any bow today will kill within reason. Just my 2 cents.


Most got within 5 yards


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## tiny52 (Dec 31, 2010)

Agreed




Capt'n D said:


> Yep...LOL
> I'm not saying there is anything wrong with speed. What I am saying is that this girl is getting bad advice to buy a new bow when that isn't the problem. She says clearly in her post that one shot was HIGH in the shoulder and the other she didn't even know where the arrow hit. That is no reason to tell someone the bow and arrow is at fault. Unless you own an archery shop and are trying to get a sale...LOL
> A slow compound will kill just as dead as a fast one if the arrow is put in the right spot. A new bow will not fix her problem.


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## tiny52 (Dec 31, 2010)

Capt'n D said:


> Arrow weight is what gives the arrow the power to pass through a deer. All the speed does is get it there faster as well as makes up for the yardage you misjudged.


My Compound goes in at 325fps with a 300 grn arrow.
Blew through both shoulders of a buffalo at 35 yards.

My Recurve goes 160fps with a 450grn. arrow and cant penetrate a 2 year old doe's shoulder blade, in testing.
Cant do it with a 600 grn. arrow either.

My wifes 275grn arrow went through a 275# Russian @ 258fps.... centering ribs on both entrance and exit.
Her 180fps bow shooting a 675grn arrow (Ashby set up) didnt make it through an empty plastic 5 gallon bucket.


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## Capt'n D (May 15, 2007)

tiny52 said:


> My Compound goes in at 325fps with a 300 grn arrow.
> Blew through both shoulders of a buffalo at 35 yards.
> 
> My Recurve goes 160fps with a 450grn. arrow and cant penetrate a 2 year old doe's shoulder blade, in testing.
> ...


I believe it. Several factors come into play. My point is that she doesn't need a new bow as she is being led to believe. Maybe just some help getting it set up right & maybe some pointers.


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## threetoe (May 13, 2011)

See what you started Nichole?

Bad girl.. hehehehehe

Get a Heartbreaker.
Sell that one here for a kid to play with.

Serious hunters need serious equipment.


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## tiny52 (Dec 31, 2010)

I agree that shot placement is the first thing to master.
I also believe that more K.E. would help get that arrow all the way through and into the ground.
But...
Even at 50# and with a 340fps IBO bow...A mature shoulder isn't going to give way on a whitetail.
Got to go through the ribs.



Capt'n D said:


> I believe it. Several factors come into play. My point is that she doesn't need a new bow as she is being led to believe. Maybe just some help getting it set up right & maybe some pointers.


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## archermarj (May 6, 2006)

I have a short draw length and low poundage and have gotten several pass throughs. Especially at 20 yards. You can talk all about knetic energy you want but people have been shooting deer for centuries and they didn't have heartbreakers. There are many recurve shooters out there as well. If you get a good shot on a deer with the right broadhead and arrow, you have a dead deer.


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## archermarj (May 6, 2006)

Went back and saw some people made the same point about the indians that I did. Practice your shots, sight in using your broadheads. With my 3d set up I am only getting 260's fps. I am much slower with my hunting setup.


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## shootist (Aug 28, 2003)

I shot this with a 44 lb. recurve. Kinetic energy is important, but the OP's setup should have plenty of kinetic energy with 45 lbs. It sounds to me that there are a bunch of bow sales people on this forum. To the OP: If you want a different bow, get a different bow. Your setup is adequate, despite what others might tell you.


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## Capt'n D (May 15, 2007)

archermarj said:


> Went back and saw some people made the same point about the indians that I did. Practice your shots, sight in using your broadheads. With my 3d set up I am only getting 260's fps. I am much slower with my hunting setup.


What! Indians didn't have arrow charts & grain scales!
How did an arrow ever get through that Buffalo hide...LOL


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## Widgeon (Jul 17, 2009)

Let's get something clear:

Increasing arrow weight will increase both KE and Momentum because it increases the efficiency of the bow, PERIOD. I have done extensive testing in this and have plenty of charts to prove it, with varying draw weights and arrows up to 1500 grains. If you pick a properly spined arrow and point/broadhead combination, and tune the bow properly, weight will always equal more efficiency. The urban legend of the point of diminishing returns for KE/momentum is just that, pure myth and hogwash. Up your arrow weight and you will up your penetration power. 

That being said, trajectory and yardage judgement must still be considered. I don't shoot 1500 grain arrows even though I know they will penetrate better, I pick something that has a good amount of power and speed. In the end, putting the shot where it counts, having a sharp and quality broadhead with a tuned bow is what counts. 

Reference reading material for those interesting in increasing arrow weight and it's consequences:

http://archeryreport.com/2009/11/arrow-kinetic-energy-momentum-archer/
http://archeryreport.com/2011/03/arrow-penetration-testing-real-bows-real-arrows-real-results/


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## ttate (Jan 31, 2011)

shootist said:


> I shot this with a 44 lb. recurve. Kinetic energy is important, but the OP's setup should have plenty of kinetic energy with 45 lbs. It sounds to me that there are a bunch of bow sales people on this forum. To the OP: If you want a different bow, get a different bow. Your setup is adequate, despite what others might tell you.


I just have to say that is one nice deer congrats on taking it with a recurve that is awesome. My dad builds recurve I may have to talk him into making me one.....


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## tiny52 (Dec 31, 2010)

Whatever you like.

The fact is that just the opposite is true of what you say... damn the charts and graphs.
After spending thousands of hours testing
(within a professional setting and on a professional level) 

What is a fact is that your facts are fiction.... many times.
And then again, many times not.

You have to use more than what you are showing in these links.
Those tests show a particular outcome with a fixed set up.

Absolutely worthless as goes to supporting your contention.




Widgeon said:


> Let's get something clear:
> 
> Increasing arrow weight will increase both KE and Momentum because it increases the efficiency of the bow, PERIOD. I have done extensive testing in this and have plenty of charts to prove it, with varying draw weights and arrows up to 1500 grains. If you pick a properly spined arrow and point/broadhead combination, and tune the bow properly, weight will always equal more efficiency. The urban legend of the point of diminishing returns for KE/momentum is just that, pure myth and hogwash. Up your arrow weight and you will up your penetration power.
> 
> ...


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## Widgeon (Jul 17, 2009)

tiny52 said:


> Whatever you like.
> 
> The fact is that just the opposite is true of what you say... damn the charts and graphs.
> After spending thousands of hours testing
> ...


Sorry for the derailment of the thread...but I have to respond to this.

Are you kidding me? The opposite of what I say is true when the numbers are right before you? Did I make those up? What testing have you done under what circumstances? Do you have any proof that counters mine? What part of what I linked to you do you believe is incorrect? My outcomes show various bows shooting arrows that are anywhere from 400 to 1500 grains...and the links show only a small portion of my testing.

BTW, this isn't just something that I've thrown together. (I really hate this part...but I obviously have to toss out a few credentials) but I am a professional that works on a professional level. I have a MS in Mechanical Engineering with over 15 years of mechanical design and test experience. In fact, a very large part of my job is learning how to properly run tests on what can often be very complicated systems.


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## tiny52 (Dec 31, 2010)

Widgeon said:


> Sorry for the derailment of the thread...but I have to respond to this.
> 
> BTW, this isn't just something that I've thrown together. (I really hate this part...but I obviously have to toss out a few credentials) but I am a professional that works on a professional level. I have a MS in Mechanical Engineering with over 15 years of mechanical design and test experience. In fact, a very large part of my job is learning how to properly run tests on what can often be very complicated systems.


I dont believe that this is derailing the thread in as much as you and I and others are speaking to the issue of what causes a problem when speaking of equipment.

I wont get into a Pizing match with you since we are both professionals.
You have your facts and I have mine.
I have proven out my facts over the years while working for 3 manufactures and I have also worked exclusively in archery related testing for a period of 3 years plus.

I have seen (numerous times) where calculations and facts derived on paper fall short in the real world.
Diminishing returns is easy to prove and has been proven, too many times to be dismissed simply because the facts dont add up on paper.

I am sorry for being so abrupt in my first response to your post and I'll just agree to disagree with you.

Have a good day.


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## Widgeon (Jul 17, 2009)

tiny52 said:


> I have seen (numerous times) where calculations and facts derived on paper fall short in the real world.
> Diminishing returns is easy to prove and has been proven, too many times to be dismissed simply because the facts dont add up on paper.


I apologize for the somewhat harsh response I gave earlier; after re-reading it, it wasn't quite the tone I intended.

However, my data is not from paper, it's actual test results. Real bows, real arrows (400-1500 grains) over various draw weights. I went to great lengths to make sure that the arrows were all tuned properly and have very similar FOCs. The real world data is very clear: bows become more efficient with increased arrow weight and KE/momentum go up. I'm not the only one to have done this testing and proved it. There is nothing about miscalculations on paper in my work.

In fact, most people that do the calculations "on paper" by using online calculator or such end up drawing the same conclusion that you did, that there is a "sweet spot" in arrow weight. That's because they don't account for the increased efficiency of the bow. If you have any real world data that contradicts my findings, I would honestly love to see it. I've also seen and worked with people that have real world shooting data that was invalid because they would increase the arrow weight by just adding tip weight or something that would cause the arrow to be out of tune with the bow, thus losing energy.

It's also very easy to see for anyone in a quick and easy manner. Take two arrows with a good amount of weight difference, ideally spine and tune to the bow properly. Shoot them both back to back and notice the difference in sound and vibration. The heavier arrow will be quieter and have less vibration because more of the energy is going into the arrow and less is dissipated through losses in the bow, IE sound, vibration, frictional and other minor losses.


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## XForce Girl (Feb 14, 2008)

Capt'n D said:


> Yep...LOL
> I'm not saying there is anything wrong with speed. What I am saying is that this girl is getting bad advice to buy a new bow when that isn't the problem. She says clearly in her post that one shot was HIGH in the shoulder and the other she didn't even know where the arrow hit. That is no reason to tell someone the bow and arrow is at fault. Unless you own an archery shop and are trying to get a sale...LOL
> A slow compound will kill just as dead as a fast one if the arrow is put in the right spot. A new bow will not fix her problem.


I hope you aren't directing your comment at me. Because I'm not the one who first suggested she get another bow. 

You three are acting like children, Widgeon and Tiny52 and Capt'n D. 

Not sure if you are guys or girls but I have my suspicions. 
You all are making this thread all about you. and trying to prove who knows more. 

Us girls here in the womens area don't play like this and if you cannot be helpful then stay out of the womens area. HA!!


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## ttate (Jan 31, 2011)

XForce Girl said:


> I hope you aren't directing your comment at me. Because I'm not the one who first suggested she get another bow.
> 
> You three are acting like children, Widgeon and Tiny52 and Capt'n D.
> 
> ...


Yeah what she said....What it all boils down to is confidence in what you shoot. You know if you take your bow out and you have no reason to believe it won't kill go for it. If after you shoot you find it's not what you think it is change. It's all about confidence. If you don't have confidence you will fail no matter what you shoot in my opinion. Course I may know nothing as I haven't killed yet, but it's not from lack of confidence it's called Buck fever in my case.


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## Rick Hodges (Nov 3, 2008)

:embara:Okay, before I wade into this I will admit to being a man.

If someone has lost faith in their equipment and wants new....great and more power to them. I have heard arguments for speed and/or weight ad nauseum for many years. I have opted for a medium weight arrow at a moderate speed and it works for me.

It seems to me there are a couple of alternatives here. Buy new equipment or get the most from what you have. I have heard very little in this discussion on what a difference a properly tuned bow makes on the ability of the arrow to penetrate. It always surprises me the difference it makes when the arrow flies straight and true, without tail whip or corkscrewing. A well tuned bow is usually much faster than one that is out of sync.

Finding a bow shop that has a chrono----and the patience and know how to properly tune her bow might be all she needs.

Now, being a man, who the heck am I to attack anyones excuse for buying new archery stuff.:wink:


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## threetoe (May 13, 2011)

Oh Nicole////
Look what you've done.

:wink:


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## Capt'n D (May 15, 2007)

XForce Girl said:


> I hope you aren't directing your comment at me. Because I'm not the one who first suggested she get another bow.
> 
> You three are acting like children, Widgeon and Tiny52 and Capt'n D.
> 
> ...


Nope I wasn't but after going back and reading your posts you are sure helping her along...LOL.
I actually agreed with your posts. Only thing I didn't agree with is that you were pushing speed on her.
Great advice on broadheads though.
I was in the archery business fot many years. Been around it all my life and have learned from the best in the sport.
Practice & good shot selection is the key. A new bow won't fix anyones problems if they make bad shots or take bad shots.


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## Widgeon (Jul 17, 2009)

The reason I posted what I did (and sorry if you thought I was acting like a child XForce Girl!) was that I feel it is very important for people to understand that taking the same bow and shooting a lighter arrow through it is NOT going to increases penetration potential, but rather it will decrease it. Both KE and momentum will increase with additional arrow weight. Of course the speed will drop and trajectory/yardage judging becomes something to consider.

I personally like a mid-weight arrow (470-500 grains) for my shooting as it gives me great penetration potential and pretty good speed.


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## tiny52 (Dec 31, 2010)

XForce Girl said:


> You three are acting like children, Widgeon and Tiny52 and Capt'n D.
> 
> Not sure if you are guys or girls but I have my suspicions.
> You all are making this thread all about you. and trying to prove who knows more.


For my part.... Not at all.

My wife made a post that I agreed with...she got opposition and I followed up in her defence.

I felt that my defence was on point as to what was said by my wife who was attempting to give her opinion (as a woman) as to what was beneficial to the OP.

We have worked independently and together for some time and she was correct, in what has worked best for her.
She doesn't have the time or want to argue her point but I do not have a problem supporting her when she is right.
Especially when what she said was for the benefit of someone (who she feels) has been going through the same experiences that she herself has been through.

So.....
While I am having to make a case to support a woman's contention.... I dont see how it matters as to the fact that I am a man.


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## doegirl (Sep 22, 2004)

Widgeon said:


> I personally like a mid-weight arrow (470-500 grains) for my shooting as it gives me great penetration potential and pretty good speed.


I have a bow in which I use arrows that come out to 2.6 gpp. I guarantee you that bow will take down the largest, toughest animals on earth. And no, it's not one of the bows in my sig...
A 500 grain arrow is 12.5 gpp for a 40lb bow. How is that midweight and how could that possibly benefit someone with a slower setup in the first place?


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## XForce Girl (Feb 14, 2008)

tiny52 said:


> For my part.... Not at all.
> 
> My wife made a post that I agreed with...she got opposition and I followed up in her defence.
> 
> ...


Hey, that's fine. we all have our opinions and are entitled to them. 
My post was actually trying to address the question the OP asked. Not get into a debate for pages and pages about who knows more and who has been around bows longer.


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## Widgeon (Jul 17, 2009)

doegirl said:


> I have a bow in which I use arrows that come out to 2.6 gpp. I guarantee you that bow will take down the largest, toughest animals on earth. And no, it's not one of the bows in my sig...
> A 500 grain arrow is 12.5 gpp for a 40lb bow. How is that midweight and how could that possibly benefit someone with a slower setup in the first place?


Hopefully you didn't mean 2.6gpp at 40 lbs (or any draw weight for that matter) because that's only 104 grains. Did you perhaps mean 6.2 grains? 

While any such arrow *could* take down most animals with a well placed shot and sharp broadhead, certain combinations are going to give better overall results. I should have stated in my post that it was a "mid-weight" for my specs. Everybody is going to have to decide for themselves what works best. I do NOT opt for maximum speed, I do opt for a decent weight (at my specs, 30" and 68 lbs) that will have a higher penetration potential.

If you are only going to shoot, let's say out to 30 yards, and it will be easy to judge the distance or if you are in a tree stand where you can mark the distances, heavier can definitely have an advantage because you are less likely to mis-judge the yardage and miss while maintaining a higher penetration potential. If you are comfortable judging distance and practice a lot, having a faster bow is less important than having one with more penetration potential for those times when you can't slide one between the ribs.


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## grimjeeper (Nov 1, 2005)

My wife shoots Darton 3800. 26.5 draw. 45 lbs draw wt. 306 grain ht2 arrows. string loop. 1/4 g5 peep @ 261 fps. She uses 85 grain magnus stinger broadheads. Seems to work out great. She loves the bow and set up. Pass throughs no problem.


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## doegirl (Sep 22, 2004)

Widgeon said:


> Hopefully you didn't mean 2.6gpp at 40 lbs (or any draw weight for that matter) because that's only 104 grains. Did you perhaps mean 6.2 grains?
> 
> While any such arrow *could* take down most animals....


ANY draw weight? How about 185lbs:wink:
I did mean 2.6gpp. That arrow weighs 435grains. I was referring to my crossbow.
I don't have any trouble with penetration other than digging a spitfire out of a tree after blowing through a deer's scapula.


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## XForce Girl (Feb 14, 2008)

doegirl said:


> ANY draw weight? How about 185lbs:wink:
> I did mean 2.6gpp. That arrow weighs 435grains. I was referring to my crossbow.
> I don't have any trouble with penetration other than digging a spitfire out of a tree after blowing through a deer's scapula.


HAHAHAHA!! You ROCK!! Way to go girl!!


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## Widgeon (Jul 17, 2009)

doegirl said:


> ANY draw weight? How about 185lbs:wink:
> I did mean 2.6gpp. That arrow weighs 435grains. I was referring to my crossbow.
> I don't have any trouble with penetration other than digging a spitfire out of a tree after blowing through a deer's scapula.


Dang...you got me!


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## tiny52 (Dec 31, 2010)

doegirl said:


> ANY draw weight? How about 185lbs:wink:
> I did mean 2.6gpp. That arrow weighs 435grains. I was referring to my crossbow.
> I don't have any trouble with penetration other than digging a spitfire out of a tree after blowing through a deer's scapula.


Diminishing returns go the other way as well.
That crossbow wouldn't make it through a 1" pine board at a certain weight... whatever that weight might be.
2#?.... whatever the case, the weight of the bolt will eventually kill performance.
Same in the other direction.
At some point, the weight will be so light that it wont make it through either.

Good example! :thumbs_up


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## Reelrydor (Jan 5, 2010)

*me too??*

I have a similar dilemma to the initial question. I have two bows. The strothers is fine for early season when it is warm, and I am fitter/stronger. Power/accuracy and pass throughs without a question. My confidence is high with this bow, although, my draw might not be as stealthy as I would like, the heavy foliage helps me. I can shoot a heavier arrow, my CE 250's w/ grim reaper 75gr. razor tip, and put 
'em down at 40 yds if I have too. My regular everyday bow is my chaos. It shoots great for what it is, but after shooting the super short, and the strothers, I miss the power and accuracy.  I have to use a lighter arrow to get any kind of speed, and must have a more perfect shot to get a pass through, and 40 yds is pretty much out of the question. I am also considering selling both bows, and moving to a mathews jewel, or more likely a helim, if I can find one to try. I loved my 2008 pse ss/uf, but couldnt draw it all year either. If I shot indoors I would never give up the strothers, but the hunting season here is usually very cold/harsh. I have yet to find my perfect bow.:embara:


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## tiny52 (Dec 31, 2010)

Reelrydor said:


> I have yet to find my perfect bow.:embara:


I empathise!.
I stop into this forum every once in awhile to try and learn something but to this date... no one has found the silver bullet :thumbs_do


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## gamble0613 (Nov 9, 2011)

My wife started out with the Parker sidekick 26" draw and pulling 50lbs I can't remember what weight her arrows were then because it was 3 years ago but she killed atleast 5 deer with it maybe 6. It all comes down to shot placement! I'm so tired of hearing statistics about bows and feet per sec. 20 years ago you were lucky to get a 70lb bow shooting 250fps and there were plenty of deer killed. The problems archers have are over 90% human error. Shot placement is everything and knowing when to shoot, knowing if the animal is relaxed or cautious, waiting for the correct leg placement of the animal. The problem today is people shooting a good group on a target and then being told they are ready to hunt. I'm not trying to bash on anyone and don't want people to get discouraged or lose confidence but being an archer is one thing and being a bowhunter is a totally different thing. My first bow kill was at the age of eleven and I have been doing it for over 20 years, I have killed many deer and have been blessed to take a few P&Y bucks but I have also had my share of misses and mishaps and that is a sickening feeling that you have to learn from. Again I'm not trying to ruffle anyones feathers but just stating facts that any real bowhunter understands.


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## tiny52 (Dec 31, 2010)

gamble0613 said:


> My wife started out with the Parker sidekick 26" draw and pulling 50lbs I can't remember what weight her arrows were then because it was 3 years ago but she killed atleast 5 deer with it maybe 6. It all comes down to shot placement! I'm so tired of hearing statistics about bows and feet per sec. 20 years ago you were lucky to get a 70lb bow shooting 250fps and there were plenty of deer killed.


There were plenty of deer killed and there were plenty of deer missed as well.
While I agree with you that the equipment isn't everything, it is a good part of it.

I have missed more deer with my recurve than I have with my compound and on every shot, it came down to speed making the difference.
When a deer jumps the string, the bow's speed can make the difference.
While a deer cannot duck my recurve under 10 yards, a deer cant jump my fastest compound under 18 yards.
The amount of deer I can get at 18 yards as opposed to 10 yards is pretty substantial.
Therefore, I kill more deer with the compound based solely on arrow speed.



> The problems archers have are over 90% human error. Shot placement is everything and knowing when to shoot, knowing if the animal is relaxed or cautious, waiting for the correct leg placement of the animal.



Absolutely!.




> Again *I'm not trying to ruffle anyone's feathers *but just stating facts that *any real bowhunter *understands.



Not trying to ruffle any feathers?!


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## Reelrydor (Jan 5, 2010)

*Men won't really understand*

Even if you have good shot placement. I am not a AT techy, but there is a world of difference between the way my chaos "pushes" and arrow, and the way my old , super short, or my strothers releases one. Tuned to perfection, can't improve upon. How many guys "step down" in their bow selection? I mean go from a high quality, top performer, to a mainline, so-so shooter? I am sure very few, especially here, on AT! Women do it all the time, because of lack of choice. I am an ex-jockey, ex-rider who has gotten torn limb from limb, literally all my life. I have injuries and need surgeries that would put most people on the shelf for years, that most people get, I cant, so I deal with what I have. I went from drawing 55#'s to like #42's in three years, I imagine it won't get better over the years. My bow selection is dwindling though. The chaos is a nice bow for the price. But it does not satisfy my ,needs to shoot/hunt, my abilities/tastes are beyond that. You get what u pay for, and the accuracy is not comparable between top line bows and others. I see light on the horizon w/ some manufacturers. I really want to try a jewel from mathews, in 45#/26", but the nearest dealer is 142 miles away, which to me, means over $100 just to try the bow, with a day off needed to travel that far. Not to mention a thousand to buy it, even if it is the bow of my dreams? I tried a dealer that was closer, but when I said 45lbs, he put a parker kickwhatever in my hands, and it felt like a $10 toy to me. I tried a diamond pink thing, and it was the same. At least the chaos shot like a nice bow, but not what I was used too. Maybe in the spring I can get to try out the mathews, and see if it will satisfy my needs. The weight sounds close to the chaos, which is the best thing about the chaos.:wink:


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## Reelrydor (Jan 5, 2010)

I just saw another thread here in the womens forum w/the same deliema. "Would you consider a crossbow?" thread, check it out. Speed/kinetic energy issues. Comes to the same thing.


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## rayzor43 (Apr 8, 2011)

Shoot a heavier arrow/broadhead setup for better penetration. I get letters all the time from customers who've had pass throughs on deer and bear shooting light poundage bows with arrows and broadheads heavier than many would expect. I shoot 27" draw with draw weights between 45-58 pounds depending on the setup. My arrow/broadhead setups run 380-430gr. I use 125gr -175gr broadheads. Heavier on the lighter pull bows. We have done extensive testing and heavier setup will penetrate further. A heavy 2 blade will penetrate further yet as long as its strong and does'nt bend or break. We make broadheads from 85-300 gr in 3 blade and 150-300gr 2 blade.


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## ChuckA84 (Mar 19, 2012)

threetoe said:


> OK..
> Here's the facts
> 2010 Parker SideKick Extreme
> IBO = 270
> ...


Sorry to bring up an old dead thread, but I recently purchased a Parker Sidekick Extreme for my girlfriend and when I read this post after googling for reviews I became very alarmed at the horribly low FPS and KE. I then did some calculations of my own and figured out that threetoe made mistakes in his calculations on the Parker bow that make it look worse than it really is. Here's what I come up with:

Parker Sidekick Extreme - Speed is not calculated at IBO (30" and 70') because the bow can't go that high in draw length or weight, the speed is 270 @ 28" and 60'...

Therefore using the numbers threetoe did for draw length and weight, being 25" and 40', 25 grains on the string and 260g arrow, using the UTOPIA calculator the CORRECTED arrow speed would be somewhere around 222 FPS and KE at 28.46

As for the OP who was wondering if her setup was adequate, she stated she was drawing 45', which would put her at around 232FPS and 31.08 KE, which would definitely be adequate for close in shots with a sharp cut on contact broadhead.

I wanted to clear this up for any one else who might randomly come across this thread and look down on the Parker bow due to threetoe's miscalculation.

The mistake that threetoe made caused undue deductions to the estimates by the calculator believing that the 270FPS rating was achieved at 30" draw length and 70' draw weight, instead of being achieved at 28" draw length and 60' draw weight.

If I am the one who is actually wrong then someone please speak up, but this is how I figure it should go???


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