# New version of 3D



## Keeshond (Sep 13, 2016)

Tell me how horrible this idea is. You can't hurt my feelings. lol

I shoot 3D and enjoy it less and less for several reasons. One reason is the backups that always occur. I blame this on shooters endlessly glassing the targets because you have to know where to aim. (this makes sense) We are also facing many different target manufactures with different scoring ring locations. It's almost impossible to remember every animal today.

We are out in the woods for several hours shooting only 30 arrows. That's not enough shooting to be very interesting if you've ever shot field archery. I like to shoot and making 30 shots over 3 or 4 hours of standing around is very boring to me. 

I do like the idea of 3D being shot in the woods with shaded targets and up and down hill shots along with all the other things you face in the woods to make shots challenging.

What I'd like to see is a target game that is a blend of 3D and field archery. Have three different size concentric ring foam targets set in the woods just as we set animal targets today. Maybe use a smaller 12" diameter round target for close shots and larger 18" and 24" diameter targets for shots at mid-range and out to 50 yards. Have rings scoring 11-10-8-5 as we see on animal targets and paint the 11-ring white or orange and have the scoring rings concentric so the colored spot is in the middle for all targets. 

You would not have to ban binos on the course, only on the stake. No glassing while on the stake. You know where to aim going in. 

Place your various sized round targets in the woods just as in 3D. Use 30 stations and allow 2 shots per target for 60 shots total. All arrows scoring the same.

Targets could be any solid color but the 11-ring would be distinct. 3D is not hunting practice for those who take it seriously. It's a target game where points are everything. So knowing where to aim is essential. Using round targets might bring down manufacturing costs and it would aid in lesser archers not losing so many arrows while out on the course - the 11-ring being in the very center of the mass. Not near an edge as with many animal targets. You would have fewer shooters looking for missed shots and slowing things down. For me, backups are the biggest reason to avoid 3D today. I can't take 4 hours to shoot 30 arrows.

Any thoughts on this? Maybe a version of this has been tried or is being done already.

Thanks.


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## B.T. Splinterz (Aug 31, 2016)

Different clubs I have shot at have an Iron man where they blends a NFAA style International Field round and an A -typical ASA known distance 3D round .

I would love to see this in conjunction with an UNKNOWN distance - Marked 3D shoot . I too am fed up with taking 3 hours + to shoot 20 arrows.


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## nestly (Apr 19, 2015)

Keeshond said:


> Targets could be any solid color but the 11-ring would be distinct. 3D is not hunting practice for those who take it seriously. It's a target game where points are everything. So knowing where to aim is essential. Using round targets might bring down manufacturing costs and it would aid in lesser archers not losing so many arrows while out on the course - the 11-ring being in the very center of the mass. Not near an edge as with many animal targets. You would have fewer shooters looking for missed shots and slowing things down. For me, backups are the biggest reason to avoid 3D today. I can't take 4 hours to shoot 30 arrows.
> 
> Any thoughts on this? Maybe a version of this has been tried or is being done already.
> 
> Thanks.


2 arrows per target with a colored inner ring is similar to Redding, which appeals to a lot of people.

I shoot indoor, target, field and 3D and I personally like the diversity of traditional 3D without a marked "spot", and I especially like ASA style 12-ring scoring where rings are decidedly NOT concentric because it requires the archer to really evaluate their abilities. I agree that 3D isn't exactly "hunting practice" but it does serve to sharpen hunting accuracy by training hunters/archers to be able to pick a "spot" and hit it, even if the "spot" isn't an actual "spot"

Being from Mass, I'm curious if you ever get to shoot ASA format 3D vs IBO format? ASA format isn't necessarily any faster, but it is much more even paced and there's a lot more opportunity to socialize during the round than IBO format, which makes the round seem to go faster to me.


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## ghostdncr (Jul 18, 2016)

I like the sound of it. Haven't heard of anything like this going on locally, but it's mighty easy to burn up three hours+ on thirty shots around here. 

Some years ago, I shot with a group of trad guys who would forego traditional scoring altogether and aim at the 3D target based on the represented animal's anatomy. We scored as either kill, wound, or miss. To me, that kept things moving, made better practice for hunting, and was generally more fun.


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## Keeshond (Sep 13, 2016)

Nestly, in my area it's all IBO-based 3D. The biggest reason I hate the unmarked 11-ring is because even after you view the ring with binoculars, you are back to largely guessing where the spot is from, say, 33 yards and in the shadows. Look away from a quartering deer without your binocs and you might not pick up the general area of the 11-ring again. I know, it happens to me.

So 3D, when you are largely guessing at the 11-ring, becomes something of a game of luck. Assuming all the top shooters are of equal ability, the luckiest guy, the guy who guesses the best, has a slight edge. A slight edge is all a guy needs if he's shooting against similar talent.

I'm not a compound shooter, I shoot an ILF target recurve and I string walk. I'm capable of hitting the kill area most of the time out to 35 yards. When I'm shooting well, I can do better than that. Inside of 30 yards I have a very good chance of hitting the exact spot I'm aiming at - just like a compound shooter. All compound shooters can commiserate with what I'm going to relate: How many times have you made a perfect release and shot, only to see your arrow pinwheel the very spot you wanted only find the spot was 2 inches left of where you should have been because you couldn't see the ten ring, let along the 11 ring, because the rings could not be discerned by normal eyesight.

It turns a very competitive archery match into a game of chance and I hate it. That's why I'd like to see the 11-ring painted white or orange. Even if it's not concentric to the 10-ring. Give shooters a fair chance to see what they are seeking.

Most trad shooters cannot shoot well enough past 15 yards to be shooting at 11-rings with any real hope of hitting it. They are happy to make an 8. If I shoot an 8 at 30 yards because I can't see the 10 or 11 ring clearly, it kinda pisses me off. This is the biggest flaw with 3D as I see it if you want to call it a serious archery target game. As it's constituted now, it's largely a game of chance.


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## nestly (Apr 19, 2015)

IMO, "luck" has very little to do with shooting 3D well. When experienced 3D shooters glass a target, they know how to locate the 11 ring (actually I have much more experience shooting 12-rings) while aiming, so I really can't relate to your experience of putting the arrow exactly where intended, only to find out it missed the ring... that really only happens to me if the target is extremely dark or too shot up to be able to see the ring(s) with the glasses/binos.


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## wa-prez (Sep 9, 2006)

In Washington state, the "Safari" format is quite popular. This is marked yardage, paper targets, with circular "kill" area and orange center dot, with generally same rules as Redding and similar distances.

Will be 2 arrows per target, scoring 11 for the spot, 10 for the kill ring, and 8 for anywhere in the animal. 22 points possible on the target. 35-42 targets per day is typical, with 70 targets for the two-day total. Will generally have a couple long shots (up to 101 yards) and a few short shots (down to 4 yards).

My home club three of these Safari and two 3D events during the year. Safaris are "Rainforest" = typical world safari, "Zombie" = unique zombified animals with guts etc, no humanoid critters. "Clam Shoot" all are hand-painted sea life. I'll attach a couple photos.

Safari events get BIG turnouts. Hunters are shooting at a critter and spot shooters are shooting at a spot! Usually takes about 3 hours to shoot 42 targets = 84 arrows. Kids LOVE the Zombie shoot.


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## Keeshond (Sep 13, 2016)

wa-prez, I would much prefer what you just described and illustrated. Especially the two shots per target. Another thing 3D should consider to speed up play is doing away with a foot on the stake and have an "area" like field archery that everybody at once can shoot from. No more groups of 6 with everybody shooting one at a time. What a time-wasting foolish idea that is. The field archer example where more than one shooter shoots at a time would go a long way towards speeding up play. That alone would end the 4-hour 30 target event. I've even seen 3D shoots take over 4 hours to get through a 30 arrow contest. I did that once. No more. I guy could starve to death at the 3D events I attend.


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## nestly (Apr 19, 2015)

Everyone has their own preferences, but if the amount of time it takes to shoot a round was a big deterrent to serious 3D shooters, ASA wouldn't have had so much success for 20+ years. The things that annoy you about 3D are the things that I believe make unmarked 3D enjoyable and unique. Shooting first is a disadvantage with unmarked targets, so without an assigned shooting order, no one is going to want to shoot first, they're all going to stand around waiting for someone else to put a marker in the target they can use for an aiming reference. Ditto for range estimation.... shooting first is a disadvantage, so assigned shooting rotation is all but mandatory to ensure fairness for all.
It takes roughly the same amount of time to shoot a 3D round as most other "rounds" in archery, so I don't see the problem. I personally don't have any interest in going to an archery competition (any type of archery) and only spending an hour actually competing. 

Again, everyone has their own preferences, but if the majority of 3D competitors wanted to shoot significantly faster, 3D organizations (especially ASA) would have already made those adjustments. 3D isn't like most other forms of target archery... nor should it be.


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## Keeshond (Sep 13, 2016)

Good enough, nestly. I really only shoot 3D because there is so little archery available in my area. Limited field and some indoor. I don't care that an event takes 4 hours. That's not the issue unless you are only shooting 30 arrows. Then it purely sucks. Field archery with it's 112 shots over the same time period is a much better game if you like to shoot. I like to shoot, not stand in the woods watching people shooting one a time on a backed-up target. That is a drag. 

Most people I speak to about speed of play agree with me and most complain loudly and get animated when I bring it up. Nobody likes backups. But nothing ever changes and the game goes on as it's always been played because humans resist change for the most part. They also continue to attend these events because they have no choice and love to shoot. It could be improved to a great degree but that goes against human nature to change.

I'm happy that you don't mind shooting 30 times over such a long period of time. I simply have too many other things to do that interest me more than to stand around in a near coma for half a day. But give me 112 shots over those same 3-4 hours and I'm all in. Field archery has it all over 3D for this reason alone. What a shame that the lords of 3D so lack imagination. At least in my opinion.


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## sagecreek (Jul 15, 2003)

To me, anything that makes it easier, less of a challenge, would make it more boring, not less as you propose. 

3D as it is/was, is very challenging. That is what I like about it. There is so much more that you can improve on to make you a better 3Der.


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## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

When I was a entry level shooter I prided myself with being able to get around a 3d course with 40 targets in just over a hour, I perfected my ability to skip targets that were backed up and asking to shoot through. I got in my truck and was so happy to have the tournament done in a quick fashion. Over the years I changed and slowed down because I actually wanted to be competitive, this is when I broke down the 3d game into pieces and I actually trained each and every piece of the 3d game so that I could shoot at a higher level. 

Now for the cool part.

I have found buddies that tell jokes and have a good time all day long, this is really important because now I can play the 3d game week after week all day long on the weekends and not get bored or sick of being on the course. Why? Because I am having more fun on the course than I can have almost anywhere else. So what if it is only a 30 shot course or 20 shot course or 40 shot course, the 3d game is a awesome thing but it is boring if you sit there on your stool and don't have fun. Once you learn how to have fun and tell stories and enjoy the day the number of shots taken is no longer the issue.


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## Kstigall (Feb 24, 2004)

Keeshound, 
it sounds to me like what you are describing is closer to being an NFAA field course than what we know as 3D. The value of the scoring rings isn't a big deal.

Hand a different target on the butts. Cover the yardage markers and have at it. The problem is that field archery isn't nearly as popular as 3D.

BUT in the IBO's market there is definitely an opportunity to grow a game and the most important thing is to run it more like the ASA than either the IBO or the NFAA. The IBO and the NFAA have similar business models and both have proven to be marginal performers at best. I know there are handfuls of people in both organizations that love what they are doing but if a survey was conducted among knowledgeable archers both would be _fortunate _if they got a C- overall rating . I bet in many areas they would be rated as "totally unsatisfactory".


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## harley (May 20, 2006)

If everyone knew were to aim it wouldn't be challenging or if no one missed. I like the challenge of the way it is. I don't put a time limit on it. If it takes 4 hours so be it. I enjoy talking to and meeting other shooters. Trying to figure out where to aim is part of the challenge. You say you don't have 4 hrs to shoot 30 arrows but it will probably take just as much time to shoot 60


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## Keeshond (Sep 13, 2016)

harley said:


> If everyone knew were to aim it wouldn't be challenging or if no one missed. I like the challenge of the way it is. I don't put a time limit on it. If it takes 4 hours so be it. I enjoy talking to and meeting other shooters. Trying to figure out where to aim is part of the challenge. You say you don't have 4 hrs to shoot 30 arrows but it will probably take just as much time to shoot 60


But at least I got to shoot twice as many arrows if I shot 60 in 4 hours. The time issue is only a problem when you're shooting 30 times. I'd love to stay on the course for 4 hours if I could shoot more as in field archery. 

I do hunt with a bow but never approached 3D as hunting practice. Quite the contrary. I approach 3D as a competition only. Most of us hunt deer from trees. We don't shoot 3D from the canopy above us. Yet most guys who shoot 3D are rabid deer hunters who are more interested in hunting than pure archery or shooting. Nothing wrong with this. 

In field archery I find more pure archers interested in archery excellence than hunters getting ready for the season. These people, the field archers, love to shoot and their game is set up for many shots at a greater variety of distances. It's an archer's game, 3D is a hunter's game. I get it. Guess I'll just shoot indoor NFAA 300 this fall and winter and forget about it. LOL


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## B.T. Splinterz (Aug 31, 2016)

sagecreek said:


> To me, anything that makes it easier, less of a challenge, would make it more boring, not less as you propose.
> 
> 3D as it is/was, is very challenging. That is what I like about it. There is so much more that you can improve on to make you a better 3Der.


I hear "Known distance 3D shooters" say that about" Unknown Marked" in my area too, LMAO.


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## carlosii (Feb 25, 2007)

I always liked the animal round that was shot on the field ranges. Still hold the state record...probably because they don't shoot it anymore. Bummer.


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## nestly (Apr 19, 2015)

carlosii said:


> I always liked the animal round that was shot on the field ranges.


Me too. We still shoot it here, but the "X" is now marked so its more like another spot round than an animal round.



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## IRISH_11 (Mar 13, 2004)

Never had an issue with seeing the target or knowing where to aim unless I was the first shooter in the group or some jerk thinks it's cool to shoot black fletch and black nocks. For me unknown 3D is more about knowing your setup and course management. 
You have to know what your limits are. I mean if your skill level is to a point where you can consistently shoot 12 rings at 40 plus yards on known distance targets or if your limit is 3 out of 5 arrows at 35 yards you need to know this type of information and use it in your decision making process. There are other things to know as well. For instance there are certain targets I just flat out aim better on than others. The McKenzie pronghorn is without a doubt my strongest target to aim on. The fallow deer I seem to have more trouble settling in on. I seem to always make my pin move more to see where I am at in relation to where I think I'm at. Just how my brain works.

I believe to grow archery all local clubs should be known yardage with the bonus rings identified by a contrasting color. This would enhance a few issues. Shooters would go through the course faster, the targets would not get damaged as much because arrows would not be impacting outside the insert as much. If shooters want to shoot unknown they can but they would not be eligible for awards.

Almost anybody who is anybody in 3D archery owns targets. Hard to beat the guys that own targets because they can go out everyday and take mental pictures of what the targets look like at different distances. Over time they will learn to recall the images when the toe the stake at a tournament that is unknown.


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## DBowers01 (Mar 13, 2016)

IRISH_11 said:


> ...........or some jerk thinks it's cool to shoot black fletch and black nocks.........


That's a little harsh. I am that guy and see it as an advantage to NOT provide a reference point.


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## Kstigall (Feb 24, 2004)

IRISH_11 said:


> Never had an issue with seeing the target or knowing where to aim unless I was the first shooter in the group or some jerk thinks it's cool to shoot black fletch and black nocks. For me unknown 3D is more about knowing your setup and course management.
> You have to know what your limits are. I mean if your skill level is to a point where you can consistently shoot 12 rings at 40 plus yards on known distance targets or if your limit is 3 out of 5 arrows at 35 yards you need to know this type of information and use it in your decision making process. There are other things to know as well. For instance there are certain targets I just flat out aim better on than others. The McKenzie pronghorn is without a doubt my strongest target to aim on. The fallow deer I seem to have more trouble settling in on. I seem to always make my pin move more to see where I am at in relation to where I think I'm at. Just how my brain works.
> 
> I believe to grow archery all local clubs should be known yardage with the bonus rings identified by a contrasting color. This would enhance a few issues. Shooters would go through the course faster, the targets would not get damaged as much because arrows would not be impacting outside the insert as much. If shooters want to shoot unknown they can but they would not be eligible for awards.
> ...


blacked out arrows- Are you aware having those kind of feelings is a very serious weakness in your game? Personally, I honestly do not care in the least how or what someone else does as it has zero influence on how I perform. If it does influence how I perform the person is doing something illegal or extraordinarily unsportsmanlike.

- Very few archers hit the 12 ring consistently enough at 40 or more yards to make it a good idea to bury their pin on it. I have come to believe that most 3D'ers are not nearly as good of a shot as they like to lead people to believe. Most also seem to often struggle under pressure.


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## Bo Bob (Feb 12, 2004)

Padgett said:


> I have found buddies that tell jokes and have a good time all day long, this is really important because now I can play the 3d game week after week all day long on the weekends and not get bored or sick of being on the course. Why? Because I am having more fun on the course than I can have almost anywhere else. So what if it is only a 30 shot course or 20 shot course or 40 shot course, the 3d game is a awesome thing but it is boring if you sit there on your stool and don't have fun. Once you learn how to have fun and tell stories and enjoy the day the number of shots taken is no longer the issue.



BINGO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Our group never lacks for fun or humor.


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## pottergreg (Mar 20, 2015)

I have been shooting 3D since the beginning, don't remember the exact year, always a club member involved in setting up ranges, etc. In the beginning it was just local guys practicing for hunting season to begin, one stake in the ground, range finders were non existent. We had fun. It evolved because lots of people wanted more options. I still shoot a hunter class with the equipment I hunt with, I love all the people I meet and love to talk with them. I especially like the family feel and see the ladies and kids enjoying themselves. If you don't like being backed up, get there early. First one on the coarse never has to wait. If you want to shoot more arrows shot the coarse twice, or practice at the range! You have options, You could start your own club and make up your own rules!


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## nestly (Apr 19, 2015)

DBowers01 said:


> That's a little harsh. I am that guy and see it as an advantage to NOT provide a reference point.


I agree, and I've taken a fair bit of flack over it myself, but it is an unmarked round, so it's not my job to assist my competition's score. If I had my way, everyone would shoot dark colors.


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## Marine96 (Jul 16, 2010)

Keeshound, have you approached any clubs in your region with this idea? Might be worth your time to talk to some of them with the intention of having a trail run to gauge interest. Only problem I see is your concept is it requires a club that has a field archery course.


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## B.T. Splinterz (Aug 31, 2016)

Ie been told Black vanes and nocks are called pa-rick arrows.


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## nochance (Nov 27, 2008)

now i get it, i lost cause the other guy had black knocks and vanes. Funny how how many fail to realize that there are many colors out there(trebark and dull transparent nocks) that are less visible than the black on many targets but no one ever complains about them


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## Keeshond (Sep 13, 2016)

Marine96 said:


> Keeshound, have you approached any clubs in your region with this idea? Might be worth your time to talk to some of them with the intention of having a trail run to gauge interest. Only problem I see is your concept is it requires a club that has a field archery course.


I've only suggested a marked 11-ring. This alone would speed up play, I think. Not as much glassing of the target from the stake. It would also make the game more conventional and not dependent on luck. An angled target can really shift the apparent aiming spot. Some call this part of the game. I call it roulette, a game of chance.

Anyway, I have suggested a marked aiming spot and was met with dispassionate eyes. Nobody wants to change a thing. To suggest a innovation beyond what I already did would be met with outrage, LOL Hey, I'm a field archery guy who likes to see what he's aiming at and likes to shoot 112 arrows. So shoot me.


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## Marine96 (Jul 16, 2010)

With all the talk of growing archery, one would think it would be worth trying it out at least once.


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## nestly (Apr 19, 2015)

Keeshond said:


> Anyway, I have suggested a marked aiming spot and was met with dispassionate eyes. Nobody wants to change a thing.


Lol....probably the same dispassionate eyes you'd cast on someone suggesting the 5-ring on a field face should be moved off-center. You would likely argue that it defeats the purpose of Field archery....and you'd be right, but that's what marked rings do to 3D....defeat the purpose.. Its not resistance to change, it's opposition to bad change.



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## Keeshond (Sep 13, 2016)

nestly said:


> Lol....probably the same dispassionate eyes you'd cast on someone suggesting the 5-ring on a field face should be moved off-center. You would likely argue that it defeats the purpose of Field archery....and you'd be right, but that's what marked rings do to 3D....defeat the purpose.. Its not resistance to change, it's opposition to bad change.
> 
> 
> Nestly, I'm beginning to hate you. LOL
> ...


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## nestly (Apr 19, 2015)

Keeshond said:


> Not really. I asked for opinions and I got them. The two games are different, as are people. I'll shoot all the field archery and indoor 300 I can find. At least I know where to aim. You can keep your rubber deer that are sitting in the shadows and leaning back so I can shoot them in the undercarriage and think I shot a dime from 37 yards.


I've gone through periods where I was a hardcore spot shooter and other times I was solely focused on 3D. They are different games and I appreciate both for what they are. 
IMO, your perception of 3D (at least high level 3D) is way off. Good shooters know where the bonus rings are before they draw and they hit them just as easily as if they were colored.



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## sagecreek (Jul 15, 2003)

Two words - good binoculars lain:


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## Keeshond (Sep 13, 2016)

sagecreek said:


> Two words - good binoculars lain:


How about "good genetics"? Honest, sagecreek, I can look at the very spot I want with binoculars and then put them down. Address my bow and look back at the target and lose my spot to some degree. With the leopard target with all them spots? absolute chaos for my eyes. LOL I cannot retain the area I saw through my binoculars after putting them down and taking my eyes off the target. Binos help but I don't have the ability to then find the exact spot again without them in many cases. As I maintain, 3D is a game of chance at the top level. The best archer does not always win. The luckiest one does. In target archery where you can see the aiming spot, there are no excuses for not being able to see the proper place to aim. This is my main theme and why 3D is not so good in my opinion. Unless you mark the 11-ring, then it's a much better game.


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## Keeshond (Sep 13, 2016)

sagecreek said:


> Two words - good binoculars lain:


How about "good genetics"? Honest, sagecreek, I can look at the very spot I want with binoculars and then put them down. Address my bow and look back at the target and lose my spot to some degree. With the leopard target with all them spots? absolute chaos for my eyes. LOL I cannot retain the area I saw through my binoculars after putting them down and taking my eyes off the target. Binos help but I don't have the ability to then find the exact spot again without them in many cases. As I maintain, 3D is a game of chance at the top level. The best archer does not always win. The luckiest one does. In target archery where you can see the aiming spot, there are no excuses for not being able to see the proper place to aim. This is my main theme and why 3D is not so good in my opinion. Unless you mark the 11-ring, then it's a much better game.


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## gymrat70 (Apr 13, 2006)

Keeshond - You can move into another class that allows lenses on your sights if this is an issue. What your describing is actually what makes 3D archery fun\challenging for a lot of folks, especially those of us in the bow hunter class. Here is what I do. I use binos to find the 12 ring and then look for dark spots, lines, spots on leopards, etc on the target and their relationship to the 12 ring and use these features to aim off of. Give this a try.

On the chance issue. If you mark the 12 on all the animals with say an orange dot then basically what you have is spot shooting at various distances. The best spot shooter will have the advantage and they are the only ones that will. Some folks are able to win 3D tournaments because they are good at shooting, but extremely good at judging yardage. Some are very good shooters but not the best at judging yardage. Some are both. You have to master both skills to be competitive. As SageCreek (Sup David) pointed out there is always things to work on to improve your game which keeps it interesting and fun.


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## nestly (Apr 19, 2015)

Keeshond said:


> As I maintain, 3D is a game of chance at the top level. The best archer does not always win. The luckiest one does. In target archery where you can see the aiming spot, there are no excuses for not being able to see the proper place to aim. This is my main theme and why 3D is not so good in my opinion. Unless you mark the 11-ring, then it's a much better game.


That statement alone suggests that you're not familiar enough with "high level" 3D to make a statement about that subject. There isn't one "best archer" in spot shooting that always wins, just like there's not one 3D'er that always wins. There are however a limited number of archers in the class that are capable of winning, and which one actually does depends on many variables, and that's not any different in 3D than it is in spot shooting.


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## Halfcawkt (Dec 27, 2015)

I shoot the traditional class. Sir, if you were shooting in my area, we would be competitors. If you can hit your intended mark with your rig, why can you not be happy with that? I am a very competitive guy. I believe the whole object of any game is to try to win.

All that said, if I pick a spot, and hit the dime, I am content with that. I don't care how it scores at that point. I usually place in the top three in my class. So being able to hit the very spot I intend does pay dividends, if you do it consistently. 

I shoot my bow because I love it! If I did not enjoy it, it would be a great chance to take some time off. If you can not enjoy yourself shooting 3D, maybe you should take some time out from it. (All of that was said in a friendly tone.)


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## Keeshond (Sep 13, 2016)

Halfcawkt said:


> I shoot the traditional class. Sir, if you were shooting in my area, we would be competitors. If you can hit your intended mark with your rig, why can you not be happy with that? I am a very competitive guy. I believe the whole object of any game is to try to win.
> 
> All that said, if I pick a spot, and hit the dime, I am content with that. I don't care how it scores at that point. I usually place in the top three in my class. So being able to hit the very spot I intend does pay dividends, if you do it consistently.
> 
> I shoot my bow because I love it! If I did not enjoy it, it would be a great chance to take some time off. If you can not enjoy yourself shooting 3D, maybe you should take some time out from it. (All of that was said in a friendly tone.)


Half, we would not be competitors. I do not shoot traditional class. I shoot against compound shooters with an ILF target recurve because there is no barebow division in my area. I string walk and that's frowned on by the traditional types in my part of the state. This does not really bother me, however. Trad class only shoots out to 25 yards. That's not very interesting to me. So I shoot in a bowhunter compound class that shoots from a different stake and out to 35 yards. Shots are longer and more fun. I don't shoot a recurve well enough to worry good compound shooters but I never finish last. I really do shoot 3D just for fun because I do not have a class to shoot in.

I am happy to hit the exact spot I aim at when it happens. The problem is that spot is often the wrong scoring spot because once I put down the binoculars and ready my bow and look back to the target I can easily lose my position on the animal after the glasses go away. 

So I make a perfect shot and find out I'm two inches left when I should be right. That can't happen with an aiming dot on the 11-ring. 

I'm okay with dropping this now. Nobody wants a marked 3D it seems. I'm okay with this. I mainly shoot field archery anyway. It suits me better but I do like the concept of shooting animal targets in the woods. I just don't like some aspects of it. No big deal.


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## IRISH_11 (Mar 13, 2004)

Kstigall said:


> blacked out arrows- Are you aware having those kind of feelings is a very serious weakness in your game? Personally, I honestly do not care in the least how or what someone else does as it has zero influence on how I perform. If it does influence how I perform the person is doing something illegal or extraordinarily unsportsmanlike.
> 
> - Very few archers hit the 12 ring consistently enough at 40 or more yards to make it a good idea to bury their pin on it. I have come to believe that most 3D'ers are not nearly as good of a shot as they like to lead people to believe. Most also seem to often struggle under pressure.



Have you seen the scores in K-50 or semi-pro in ASA? 12 rings at 40 yards are like 4 foot putts these days. 

As far as the part about most 3Der's are not nearly as good of a shot as they like to lead people to believe could you elaborate on that comment?

What I have come to know is that most 3Der's are good at 3D and most dot shooters are good at dots. Unless archery is your living most people focus their efforts on one discipline. 

As far as the black arrows well it is what it is. I don't understand it and therefore don't shoot them. To each his own. All I know is the ones who make their living killing foam deer are not shooting black nocks and black fletch.


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## B.T. Splinterz (Aug 31, 2016)

^ This is exactly my point. "K" What's the fun in known yardage? Unknown distance, Marked 12's Im tellin ya .


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## Kstigall (Feb 24, 2004)

IRISH_11 said:


> Have you seen the scores in K-50 or semi-pro in ASA? 12 rings at 40 yards are like 4 foot putts these days.
> 
> As far as the part about most 3Der's are not nearly as good of a shot as they like to lead people to believe could you elaborate on that comment?
> 
> ...


I have seen dark colors being used at different times by top level archers. The arrows don't have to be black on black to be very hard to see! Blue, red and green that are not florescent are often very hard to see. Blue is very popular and basic red are popular. The pink fletching and red nock I've been using the last few years are often not clearly seen through a peep.


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## Keeshond (Sep 13, 2016)

Funny, nobody wants a marked 11 or 12 ring but they all love another arrow to aim for if it's a good shot. Very curious.


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## nestly (Apr 19, 2015)

Keeshond said:


> Funny, nobody wants a marked 11 or 12 ring but they all love another arrow to aim for if it's a good shot. Very curious.


Yes, it is an interesting dilemma. On one hand I'd rather everyone shoot "clean" animals as that's the purest form of 3D, on the other hand scores will typically be higher if everyone in the group shoots bright rather than all dark. So its a choice whether you just want to be the highest score in your group, or the highest score among all groups.


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## B.T. Splinterz (Aug 31, 2016)

and they want " Known'' distance , I just shake my head


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## nestly (Apr 19, 2015)

B.T. Splinterz said:


> and they want " Known'' distance , I just shake my head


As I've stated before, I prefer "unknown" but the trend is definitely on the side of "known". I'm OK with that because in reality, everyone carries rangefinders so its a natural progression in archery. Until game animals are genetically modified to grow patches of orange hair behind their shoulder bone.....orange dots on foam animal targets is sillyness.

Sent from my XT907 using Tapatalk


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## Keeshond (Sep 13, 2016)

I don't have a problem with unknown distance. In fact I think that's more fun. It's the aiming things that bothers me. To much gaming. Just let everyone know where the points are located and it's fair. I wouldn't want known distance myself. I string walk a recurve and do like to guess yardage. I hate shooting into a void where I'm not sure of the 11 ring. Nobody else likes it either if they are competitive. Hunter types don't care. But guys wanting the best scores sure do. This chasing good arrows that are bright being exhibit A.


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## Kstigall (Feb 24, 2004)

Keeshond said:


> I don't have a problem with unknown distance. In fact I think that's more fun. It's the aiming things that bothers me. To much gaming. Just let everyone know where the points are located and it's fair. I wouldn't want known distance myself. I string walk a recurve and do like to guess yardage. I hate shooting into a void where I'm not sure of the 11 ring. Nobody else likes it either if they are competitive. Hunter types don't care. But guys wanting the best scores sure do. This chasing good arrows that are bright being exhibit A.


It's just a different mind set when shooting at a very visual bullseye and a fuzzy 3D "bullseye". They are very different sight pictures so of course if we don't see one for a while we will struggle with it when we do. I know that a big issue for newbie spot shooters coming from 3D is to get used to the sight picture and not let the supposedly very easy to hit bullseye rattle them.

In a few weeks when I start preparing for the LAS Classic I will have to get used to aiming at the bright colors because I've mostly shot 3d for the last 5 months. I will start off shooting real well but I also know that I will "tighten up" at some point. Basically, I'll begin over aiming or basically start trying to hold the bow too steady and as we all know tense muscles causes twitches and jerks. Eventually I'll get my "3 spot aiming" mind set in place and I'll also shoot 5-spot at the same time. Sometimes I unconsciously aim a bit differently on 5-spot and 3-spot. When 3D season rolls back around I'll initially find aiming at and shooting a fuzzy area odd but I know what I need to do to get back to being comfortable with shooting at an unseen "spot".

Now that I have crummy eye sight I have to be careful to not drift too far off when shooting some 3D targets.


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## Keeshond (Sep 13, 2016)

Kstigall, I guess what you describe when you're shooting well is what I feel. The aiming part is slightly overrated. It's being comfortable in the moment before release and holding your form. Form really is everything. Or 90% let's say. Most of my best scoring hits I barely remember aiming at all.

Still, I want to know where the good meat on the target is going in. LOL


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## B.T. Splinterz (Aug 31, 2016)

effectively the targets are Marked, just poorly/lo viz marked. Get off the known distance nonsense and mark the targets more effectively. Known distance 3D is like Democrat assistance programs , you never get off of them and people don't advance or evolve.


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## nestly (Apr 19, 2015)

B.T. Splinterz said:


> effectively the targets are Marked, just poorly/lo viz marked. Get off the known distance nonsense and mark the targets more effectively. Known distance 3D is like Democrat assistance programs , you never get off of them and people don't advance or evolve.


Re: assistance programs:
The same can be said for marking the targets. Spend more time getting familiar with the targets and/or invest in better binoculars and you won't have any trouble knowing where to aim. Putting in the effort to learn how to aim at 3D isn't much different than putting in the effort to learn to judge yardage, the question is will you actually put in the effort to learn, or just complain that it's too much work?

"Known" makes a lot more sense in 3D than marked scoring rings as known distance is now the norm for all forms of archery (target and hunting). To the best of my knowledge, there are no "marked" scoring rings on the live versions of foam animals, so if you want to shoot at highly defined scoring areas then hang a piece of paper on a bale, because there's no point in putting them on freestanding foam animals.


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## B.T. Splinterz (Aug 31, 2016)

The fact is some people can see the poor viz marks better than others. My Bino's are pretty good. 50 yards, hi end binos aren't really the issue. No it doesn't ,3D started out as mostly unknown. 3D is a bow hunter simulation target sport that has been grossly mutated. Prior to the late 90's consumer LRF's didn't even exist. Bow hunting skills involve being able to reasonably estimate range to 40-50ish yards. A adequately marked 12 , you wouldn't need to glass, estimate the range and make your shot would make a faster moving round. Known 3D makes as much sense as Hiliary.
LMAO, If your going to make it a known distant bullseye sport, exnay the Animal foam and just shoot a spot. You'll get lots more shots in that way.


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## nestly (Apr 19, 2015)

B.T. Splinterz said:


> The fact is some people can see the poor viz marks better than others.


Some people can judge yardage better than others. Life is not fair, but you still should try to make the best of it. If 3D isn't something a person can excel at, either enjoy it for what it is, or find something to do that provides greater satisfaction.



B.T. Splinterz said:


> 3D started out as mostly unknown. 3D is a bow hunter simulation target sport that has been grossly mutated. Prior to the late 90's consumer LRF's didn't even exist. Bow hunting skills involve being able to reasonably estimate range to 40-50ish yards.


So your argument is that we should "mutate" it even farther by putting orange dots on the targets? Rangefingers are not a "mutation" of the original purpose of hunting simulation they are a natural progression just like sights, stabilizers, compound bows, and carbon arrows. Rangefinders are part of standard hunting equipment, banning them from hunting simulation makes about as much sense as requiring everyone to shoot stick bows with wooden arrows. You're stuck in the past my friend, there's a reason cellphones outnumber telephone booths, and it's the same reason electronic rangefinding is so popular in hunting and 3D.




B.T. Splinterz said:


> A adequately marked 12 , you wouldn't need to glass, estimate the range and make your shot would make a faster moving round. Known 3D makes as much sense as Hiliary.


Again, you're ignoring reality. The only segment of archery in the United States that is growing is known distance 3D. The popularity of "unknown" 3D is declining, and so is target archery... You don't have to like it, but that's just how it is. Forcing people back towards "unknown" will cause a decline in attendance, and so will turning 3D into another form of spot shooting.




B.T. Splinterz said:


> LMAO, If your going to make it a known distant bullseye sport, exnay the Animal foam and just shoot a spot. You'll get lots more shots in that way.


Yeah, that's the point I made in the last post. If you're aiming at an orange dot, then there's no need for the foam animal at all, it's just "spot" shooting. If you want to shoot more arrows in a shorter period of time, then go shoot paper. Again, ASA style 3D appeals to an awful lot of people, even though the number of arrows shot in a round and the time it takes to shoot the round hasn't changed since 1993.


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## Kstigall (Feb 24, 2004)

B.T. Splinterz said:


> The fact is some people can see the poor viz marks better than others. My Bino's are pretty good. 50 yards, hi end binos aren't really the issue. No it doesn't ,3D started out as mostly unknown. 3D is a bow hunter simulation target sport that has been grossly mutated. Prior to the late 90's consumer LRF's didn't even exist. Bow hunting skills involve being able to reasonably estimate range to 40-50ish yards. A adequately marked 12 , you wouldn't need to glass, estimate the range and make your shot would make a faster moving round. Known 3D makes as much sense as Hiliary.
> LMAO, If your going to make it a known distant bullseye sport, exnay the Animal foam and just shoot a spot. You'll get lots more shots in that way.


I'm trying to understand you.......... You believe that if it's known distance then it _is_ a bullseye sport? Do you also believe that a bullseye target means it must be known distance? You are flat out wrong! We can have known distance targets without a obvious bullseye and we can have multi-colored bullseye target game that is unknown distance. People choose the game they want to play. If there is enough support for it then there are tournaments and if it is real popular then we have big national tournaments. Unknown distance 3D became popular while field archery shriveled up. Now Known distance 3D has grown substantially. 

I think you are simply scared "your" game may not be as big as it once was. I can appreciate that but at the same time I'm not going to support trying to keep people form doing what they want to do. Us old people need to stop acting like what we did was so much better than what is being done now! 

Some years back when known distance 3D was definitely going to happen (K45 and K50) the "seniors" scoffed and whined. That is why it wasn't until 2015 that the ASA started the Senior Known class. Back when K45 was getting started the "seniors" convinced Mike T. that a Senior Known class would not fly. The Senior Known class came out of the gate with very good attendance numbers and exploded the second year. Some of us seniors knew it would but too many others were able to mislead Mike T. for a few years. A lot of archers that had NEVER shot an ASA tournament jumped right in.

Splinterz, It's obvious that you want to force people to play "your" game by not allowing people to have options. That absolutely can not happen. You can not force people to get involved and committed to something. I understand why people that make money from unknown distance 3D but not from known distance 3D fight it. But fighting against Known distance 3D, without an obvious bullseye, for no reason other than personal feelings is being selfish. 

Note: I personally paid the entry fee and shot in the OPA tournament this year. It featured an orange dot on a 3D animal at a known distance. I am not absolutely against _that _ type of game. IF that is what a lot of people want to play I'll play it .........and win!!!


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## ILOVE3D (Feb 4, 2009)

I totally agree that the "Known Distance" classes are a good thing for expanding the sport of archery. Especially for those of us that are getting up in age and having trouble as our vision is not what it once was. I've had torn retinas in both eyes and with the surgeries my distance judging ability is never going to be the same as someone much younger and those with good vision. I can still shoot my form and compete in the K50 class even with some of the younger bunch and have a great time even if I don't win or always place. If a shoot doesn't have a known class I usually will still shoot it just because it might be the only game in town. Being flexible I can and do have a lot of fun. I find that waiting sometimes for a group of traditional shooters looking for their lost arrows take more time than those open shooters glassing forever the target deciding where exactly to aim.


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## Repair Man (Sep 13, 2014)

Kstigall said:


> I'm trying to understand you.......... You believe that if it's known distance then it _is_ a bullseye sport? Do you also believe that a bullseye target means it must be known distance? You are flat out wrong! We can have known distance targets without a obvious bullseye and we can have multi-colored bullseye target game that is unknown distance. People choose the game they want to play. If there is enough support for it then there are tournaments and if it is real popular then we have big national tournaments. Unknown distance 3D became popular while field archery shriveled up. Now Known distance 3D has grown substantially.
> 
> I think you are simply scared "your" game may not be as big as it once was. I can appreciate that but at the same time I'm not going to support trying to keep people form doing what they want to do. Us old people need to stop acting like what we did was so much better than what is being done now!
> 
> ...


Kent, you are right on. I believe the Senior Know class really pushed more known clases to grow because of the way it grew. I shot in the second ASA tournament with Senior Known and have been there ever since. (I acutally shot with you). If you look at the range times this past year it looks like about 80% of the classes have all known or 1/2 known highlighted. It is what the majority want and is definitly growing. Adding the Super Senior Known is very tempting for us over 60 guys. I believe that age group will grow because of that class.


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## B.T. Splinterz (Aug 31, 2016)

maybe I got a little out of line. At least I got you guys talking about it. The deal Levi Morgan set up showed us what a version of marked could look like and had interest. My beef is someone with better eyes has a distinct than some one without as sharp of acuity and can shoot as good or a lil better. My argument of K classes , so you can shoot 35 up if the course is known, so your score is higher on K than unknown, so that does the ego good? The fact that you can only shoot 8 to 10 up on a more challenging unknown course is a psychological let down? I just cant see the desire to shoot game target animals at known distances ? 

I would like to see an unknown 12 Marked version of 3D but I also know it aint likely to happen.


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## Repair Man (Sep 13, 2014)

You did stir up conversation. I would really like to shoot un known, but I just have no consistent judging ability at all. I will judge 16-17 targets really good and then there will be 3 or 4 that I will miss 5-6 yds. I struggled 1/2 the season this year in local tourneys trying to judge and went back to known full time. I was ready to sell out and go back to golf. 
(But then I remembered my golf scores hahaha)


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## nestly (Apr 19, 2015)

B.T. Splinterz said:


> The deal Levi Morgan set up showed us what a version of marked could look like and had interest.


My understanding is that format was chosen as an attempt to get the largest number of shooter from all types of archery in one place competing against each other with no one type of archer having a significant advantage over the other. It seemed to work well, but AFAIK, whether it returns as single event with the same rules, or develops into a series has not yet been announced. It either case though, I believe that format is more appealing to target pros than 3D pros, compared to target amateurs and 3D amateurs. (that's not to say I wouldn't like to see an amateur class added if the OPA event(s) continue)


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