# Stolid Bull Riser



## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Looks pretty stout! Don't see much deflex in that riser either.


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## massman (Jun 21, 2004)

OK so, 

I'm looking at the relationship of the limb pockets to the grip location. It appears to be a very straight riser as apposed to a "D" flex design. Why then the HUGE forward buldge on the upper part of the riser. If not for estetics only, why structurally is it there in the design.

Looks like it is there for design sake only. Or, is it an attempt to promote a forward roll. Would that not be better accomplished with a rod and weights?

My best,

Tom


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## Stolid Bull (Oct 4, 2012)

asking back: why mounting huge stabs when there are chances to get a well balanced bow without them or at
least with smaller ones?

At the moment this riser exists only as one single prototype. Nobody else except from the guy who designed it can own one. That is Cristopher Klüppel.
He is a student of mechanical engineering and worked together with his brother Daniel on this riser. 
The latest changes on the riser make it even more elegant in my eyes and I look forward to getting it into production.

@massman, you should have a look on the Black Thunder riser. It has similar geometry concerning the mass distribution in the riser and that is what makes it so stable at release.
Until now mostly barebow archers took advantage of this but the Black Thunder is also a fully upgradeable recurve riser or hunting bow.

I hope that the Vanquish will gain a similar reputation.
Holger

btw: thanks limb walker!


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## x1440 (Jan 5, 2003)

I came across Christopher's Facebook site (http://www.facebook.com/christopher.klueppel) a couple weeks and saw the riser but didn't want to post in the Sky TR7 thread. He has more pics his page, including CAD drawings. The rest looks interesting.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

> asking back: why mounting huge stabs when there are chances to get a well balanced bow without them or at
> least with smaller ones?


Balance isn't the primary purpose of stabilization. Are you familiar with MOI?


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## TomG (Dec 4, 2002)

I see this riser as primarily designed for barebow but could also be used as an olympic bow. The forward weight compensates for the weight of the limbs, preventing the bow to roll back.


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## massman (Jun 21, 2004)

Other parts I'd have questions about is the location of the plunger holes in relation to the grip. They appear to be more towards the back of the bow and vertically further away from the grip that current design thought.

My best,

Tom


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## Borderbows (Apr 4, 2009)

tom, this one is a prototype. the production model will have a height adjustable rest, from what i know


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## rick11743 (Sep 20, 2010)

Cool lookin riser. The pic shows the riser without the plunger/rest assembly, which is mounted over the grip.

With that large section of riser in front of the grip, it looks like it may be difficult to get a relaxed, curled bow finger position.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

> With that large section of riser in front of the grip, it looks like it may be difficult to get a relaxed, curled bow finger position.


Quite the clever observation. Yes, it would make for a very strange riser to hold. Got a feeling my index finger would get "stuck" in that hole in front of the grip.

John


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## Mulcade (Aug 31, 2007)

limbwalker said:


> Balance isn't the primary purpose of stabilization. Are you familiar with MOI?


MOI is Moment of Inertia for any of those scratching their heads.

John, I thought you were only allowed one big word each day... :darkbeer:


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

I am. That's why I just used the abbreviation.  ha, ha.


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## julle (Mar 1, 2009)

massman said:


> Other parts I'd have questions about is the location of the plunger holes in relation to the grip. They appear to be more towards the back of the bow and vertically further away from the grip that current design thought.
> 
> My best,
> 
> Tom


As you can see from this picture the two holes don't function as berger holes. 










rick11743 said:


> Cool lookin riser. The pic shows the riser without the plunger/rest assembly, which is mounted over the grip.
> 
> With that large section of riser in front of the grip, it looks like it may be difficult to get a relaxed, curled bow finger position.


That's the first thing I noticed to when I saw the riser, I never liked curling my fingers to the side of the grip and this riser really forces you to do it, handy though for those "grippy" people.


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## DWAA Archer (Oct 14, 2011)

I read about that riser a while back it certainly not a light weight riser!!! 1750g

looks well made though and it has been FEA tested.

Well done to the guy for having a go at making a riser clearly a lot of thought has gone in to it.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Do like the vertical rest micro-adjust feature. That's pretty slick. Years ago, Hoyt's GM riser had a vertical adjustment for the rest. Makes me wonder why that feature went away. 

John


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## julle (Mar 1, 2009)

limbwalker said:


> Do like the vertical rest micro-adjust feature. That's pretty slick. Years ago, Hoyt's GM riser had a vertical adjustment for the rest. Makes me wonder why that feature went away.
> 
> John


For what would you want to adjust it? The only thing I could think of is just minor changes for tuning, so you don't have to tie new nocking points. 
It's just one more thing that can get loose or damaged and besides I don't think you have a wide range of adjustability, considering clearance and all.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Precisely. I'm a huge advocate for keeping things simple and having as few moving parts on a bow as possible. However, fine tuning vertical nock height is not only essential, but is something an archer must do every time they switch limbs, strings, or wants to try a different pin nock, for example. 

Along with being able to adjust for different arrow diameters, this is, of course, one reason why so many popular recurve rests have an adjustment screw that allows you to raise or lower the rest arm. But the problem with that "solution" is that you are also moving the arrow shaft up or down the plunger tip - and that's no good. 

By moving the entire rest/plunger assembly, you have fine nocking point height adjustments at your fingertips, while not changing the relationship between the wire arm and plunger. Again, Earl Hoyt featured this on the early GM risers. His solution was very simple too. Not sure why we haven't seen it since.

Oh, and one other reason I'd want this feature - although not noticeable or important to most shooters - is so I could fine tune the height of the arrow in relation to my grip hand. Because I have found -contrary to industry practice- that by moving the grip down and away from the arrow, I tend to shoot better groups. My Axis riser had the grip at least 3/8" lower than most risers. My prototype TR-7 riser also features a grip that puts the pivot point of my hand further below the arrow rest. Those are the two bows I have shot my best scores with, and I can feel the difference when I draw the bow.

John


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## lksseven (Mar 21, 2010)

My experience is similar to John's (well, as similar as a tadpole can be to a rainbow trout). Moving my hand down the grip allowed me a more consistently neutral vertical point of release (spent a lot of time building up the top of the grip throat in order to gain a consistent grip orientation to accomplish this). A vertical rest adjustment would have saved me from such an ugly grip result!

I'd be thrilled to see this riser in production. Design competition begats better designs.


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## Greysides (Jun 10, 2009)

julle said:


> For what would you want to adjust it? The only thing I could think of is just minor changes for tuning, so you don't have to tie new nocking points.
> It's just one more thing that can get loose or damaged and besides I don't think you have a wide range of adjustability, considering clearance and all.


This is a riser designed for barebow. Barebow in Europe, with a metal riser, is mainly stringwalking. 

An adjustable plunger/rest set up could be useful in compensating for the tiller imbalance that SW can produce.


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## Greysides (Jun 10, 2009)

The Stolid Bull Black Thunder riser in action.






It's additional barebow weight. You have the block itself and further customisation with the addition of the 'gold' inserts.












Little Sister, the Attaco.












The Attaco, in the hands of Swede Martin Ottossan on it's way to claiming the 2012 European 3D Championship.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

> The Stolid Bull Black Thunder riser in action


Ahh, if only one were allowed to stringwalk on that target...

Guess I can dream, huh?


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## Stolid Bull (Oct 4, 2012)

Aren't you allowed to stringwalk?
I thought that IFAA rules allow stringwalking for barebow archers. Only for bowhunter class it is forbidden, isn't it?


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

It is not allowed in the "traditional" class in the U.S.. You can stringwalk in the barebow division for the USArchery events, which follow WA rules, but at least here in the U.S., the NFAA requires you to have your index finger touch the nock of the arrow in the traditional division. Otherwise, you may string walk but you will have to shoot against compound shooters.

I think it's a ridiculous rule, but there are some die-hard "traditionalists" that want to drag us back to some make-believe fairy tale where everyone shot split fingered and nobody ever bothered to aim. LOL!

John


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## Greysides (Jun 10, 2009)

John, is there a NFAA Barebow Recurve class in the US? Or is Barebow both compound and recurve?


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## DWAA Archer (Oct 14, 2011)

I like the video with the Hex limbs all you can hear is the arrows belting the target


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## trevorpowdrell (May 8, 2012)

NFAA Barebow allows both compound and recurve although it you look at what is allowed, the rules are written for the compound barebow.


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## Greysides (Jun 10, 2009)

Thanks Trevor.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Roger that. It's about time that NFAA got on the same page with WA on this one. Their "traditional" division would be MUCH more well attended if they just allowed barebow recurve archers to use the same gear and techniques as the rest of the world.

John


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## grantmac (May 31, 2007)

limbwalker said:


> Roger that. It's about time that NFAA got on the same page with WA on this one. Their "traditional" division would be MUCH more well attended if they just allowed barebow recurve archers to use the same gear and techniques as the rest of the world.
> 
> John


Yes please! Much simpler to just use the 4.4" rule for weights and let archers aim it anyway they want!

Keeps me from needing several sets of arrows, plungers and rests to shoot both, not to mention techniques.

-Grant


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

I dunno if it will ever change. People get testy about records holding up, etc. among other things. But hopefully the fairy tale neo-trad's will just quietly fade away in time.

John


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## SBills (Jan 14, 2004)

limbwalker said:


> Roger that. It's about time that NFAA got on the same page with WA on this one. Their "traditional" division would be MUCH more well attended if they just allowed barebow recurve archers to use the same gear and techniques as the rest of the world.
> 
> John


+ 1


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## SBills (Jan 14, 2004)

In 2011 I won the NAA indoor nationals stringwalking and the NFAA Indoor nationals shooting trad. This year Alan Eagleton won the NFAA indoor nats in trad and went on to win team gold and individual silver in FITA field stringwalking. When you are shooting well it really doesn't really matter. I wish the NFAA would change the silly aiming rules. If they did Vegas would probably have one heck of an international barebow recurve field.

OK enough thread jacking. Stolid bull looks very stout but not my cup of tea esthetically.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Scott, I haven't congratulated you on those wins. So congratulations. You no doubt worked your butt off and were a man on a mission. Good for you.

I hope to be re-joining the NFAA "traditional" world in the spring, and shooting more barebow in the next few years. Because it's just more fun, as you know!


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## Harperman (Sep 3, 2006)

SBills said:


> In 2011 I won the NAA indoor nationals stringwalking and the NFAA Indoor nationals shooting trad. This year Alan Eagleton won the NFAA indoor nats in trad and went on to win team gold and individual silver in FITA field stringwalking. When you are shooting well it really doesn't really matter. I wish the NFAA would change the silly aiming rules. If they did Vegas would probably have one heck of an international barebow recurve field.
> 
> OK enough thread jacking. Stolid bull looks very stout but not my cup of tea esthetically.


Scooter.....I've been kinda out of the recurve shooting for a bit, but I heard that You was burnin' it up....DANG!!...I didnt know that you were shooting like that......CONGRATS!!....I reckon that I should be paying better attention.....When do I get to come up North and get some lessons???...Jim


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## SBills (Jan 14, 2004)

Thanks guys it was a year of a lot of personal stuff that archery was able to serve as my escape and I had a two month span of shooting very well. Safe to say that Alan is the man in barebow right now though.

John I will look for you at Louisville though right now I have been shooting more BHFS. :zip:

Jim any time but I think there are probably more qualified coaches out there.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Yea, Alan has it figured out for sure. I look forward to meeting him.


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## ArtV (Jan 29, 2008)

I want one.


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## Harperman (Sep 3, 2006)

I reckon that I could make do with the Attaco....But the new riser is just too beefy for my wore out bow shoulder...Some days I'd just as soon have a 66" bamboo longbow, just to get the weight off my shoulder...Regardless of what model one ends up with from Stolid Bull, I'm quite sure that the build quality, and workmanship will be top shelf.....Jim


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## Kosmo83 (Feb 6, 2009)

Hi,

I'm Christopher, one of the Designer-Duo who did the CAD-Files and own tho prototype.
My intension was to bring good parts from a lot of bows together, like the harmonic stabilizer or the Tunerblock of OK and put them all together in one bow.
That was the first intension, the second one, was to create a new, maybe better geometry for a recurve riser, especialy olympic, becouse I shoot only olympic.

The APB (adjustable plunger block) has 2 intensions, first, bring the arrow as deep as possible to the grip!
Why ? Becouse the radius becomes smaler when you "kick" the bow up. If the distance become bigger, the movement of the arrow becomes bigger. So, you can adjust the smalest distance between grip and arrow for reducing the fault and get better grouping (hight).
Second intension was to adust the Position of the plunger for rotating-torque. This is a personal position you have to finde.
On the other Hand, you can fine-adjust your setup (nockpoint)

Geometry, the riser is less deflex than the GMX but more than the HPX. It is 26" 
I also have a new position of the Pivot-Point, but I think that will be announced by Holger, when the first production-line will be released.
BUT, the force of the hand will go better in the Riser, less torque, better grouping 

It is a litle bit heavy, but we wanted to create a stiff riser, also for higher waights, and reducing the twisting of the riser to a minimum. A strut over the window is not allowed (like Hoyt elite Compound) so we build it with more material. Maybe a little to much, but it should be a high performance bow. Somebody from england said, it is like a german "Leopard 2", heavy but a verry precise weapon.

It is designed by one spirit, more forgiving, more stable, to catch the last rings. A good shot always hits the 10, but the bad shots decides the match, and these bad shots should go as close as possible to the center.

And now, here are some Pics of the Update for release


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## Kosmo83 (Feb 6, 2009)




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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Price?


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

Kosmo83 said:


> I'm Christopher, one of the Designer-Duo who did the CAD-Files and own tho prototype.
> 
> My intension was to bring good parts from a lot of bows together, like the harmonic stabilizer or the Tunerblock of OK and put them all together in one bow.
> 
> That was the first intension, the second one, was to create a new, maybe better geometry for a recurve riser, especialy olympic, becouse I shoot only olympic.It is designed by one spirit, more forgiving, more stable, to catch the last rings.


Hi Christopher,

Thanks for sharing and I love your ingenuity and creativeness! :thumbs_up

Got a question...what do the colored parts in the riser represent in the CAD drawings?

Anything specific?

Thanks,

Ray :shade:


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## Kosmo83 (Feb 6, 2009)

Hi,

these parts are thinner than at the prototype. Just modiefied fields. The CAD-Program colored it.

A price ? Holger of stolid bull doesn't know yet, becouse he doensnt't have the modified CAD-files  just a question of time


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## Kosmo83 (Feb 6, 2009)

Here is a screenshot of the FEA.
It shows that the limb-pockets are neseccary for the stiffnes and takes a lot of forces.


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## Seattlepop (Dec 8, 2003)

Is the dove-tail bushing slot reinforced or is it just milled aluminum? This was a problem for the first generation Hoyt dowels. Since the limb bolt here looks like it pivots at the base similar to compounds (yay!) there would be even less to hold back the bushing from chewing into the aluminum?


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## Kosmo83 (Feb 6, 2009)

It is milled in, like Hoyt Elan or other Risers.
The prototyp doensn't has problems till now, but we have a plan b to modify it, if problems will exist.


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## Kosmo83 (Feb 6, 2009)

massman said:


> OK so,
> 
> I'm looking at the relationship of the limb pockets to the grip location. It appears to be a very straight riser as apposed to a "D" flex design. Why then the HUGE forward buldge on the upper part of the riser. If not for estetics only, why structurally is it there in the design.
> 
> ...


Hi, 

the fact, that we cut out the riser on the backside for the APB makes it necesarry to put the cut away material in front of the riser for stability. Well the other aspect is design, yes.
Balance for bare bow is a "nice to have" but wasn't the intension of that design  But Holger told me that, becouse I don't know much about bare bow.


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## Stolid Bull (Oct 4, 2012)

Esthetics generally is a very important part of finding a design. If you reduce a bow riser to its physically necessary elements it would very likely look quite boringly.
90 % of a decision to buy a product is generated by emotion and 10% or less are rational thought.
I do not want to say that a technical approach to develop a new product is wrong, in fact it is the way a new product should be developed. It is simply not a guarantee that this new product will sell in numbers. You need something additional which makes that product unique not only in its technical details but in appearance, as well.
In this special case the design fits perfectly into the balance philosophy that we introduced with the Black Thunder and I am sure that this riser will make real good bare bow.


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## massman (Jun 21, 2004)

In regards to the plunger/rest mount. Would you see any merit in making the mount (at the riser) a two piece arrangement? A horizontal dovel-tail slide could be designed, adjacent to the face area of the riser so that you could adjust centershot side to side.

My best,

Tom


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

> 90 % of a decision to buy a product is generated by emotion and 10% or less are rational thought.


Perhaps for those lucky few who can afford whatever they want, this is true...


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## Kosmo83 (Feb 6, 2009)

No, thats a bad idea !
Why ? 
If you screw the hole Block from side to side, you change the angle to the restholderblock. The distance becomes smaler and you get clearance-problems.
The center-position of the arrow should be tuned by the plunger, not by the APB. It is a nice idea, it works in a realy smale window, BUT, if someone use it wrong, maybe he crushes his arrows at the APB.

I hope this shows, what I want to say.

For technical informations, I hope I can help, all other questions (release-date, pricing, order etc.) please ask holger from stolid-bull


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## Stolid Bull (Oct 4, 2012)

massman said:


> In regards to the plunger/rest mount. Would you see any merit in making the mount (at the riser) a two piece arrangement? A horizontal dovel-tail slide could be designed, adjacent to the face area of the riser so that you could adjust centershot side to side.
> 
> My best,
> 
> Tom


With every dimension of adjustment you add play to the whole system and in the end you might have wiggeling arrow rest.
Generally it would be possible to manufacture such a system very precisely but it is tricky.
Look at the Spigarelli GUA rest. If it is not blocked by the fastening screws, it wiggles. If you tighten the blocking Allen screws, the system cannot be changed without a tool and thus it looses nearly completely the advantages of an adjustable rest.


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## Kosmo83 (Feb 6, 2009)

But, I want to say things straight:
The Vanquish is not a copy or something else of the Sky-Archery TR-7.
The prototypes of Vic and Brady were one part of the Inspirations, yes, also my GMX Grip from Paul Jäger, so we design the Riser to fit my existing grip, becouse I love it. 
But the only thing we take form the TR-7 was the position of the Harmonic Damper.

My Brother shoots a Drenalin LD and a Monster, so he love the Dampers and we placed it in our riser prototype, first it was only a project from 2 students, not for comercial.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Good to know.

Again, price?


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## Bigjono (Apr 21, 2009)

Kosmo83 said:


> Hi,
> 
> I'm Christopher, one of the Designer-Duo who did the CAD-Files and own tho prototype.
> My intension was to bring good parts from a lot of bows together, like the harmonic stabilizer or the Tunerblock of OK and put them all together in one bow.
> ...


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## archerynooblol (Nov 6, 2010)

Out of curiosity, what was the one-time machining cost for the prototype?

AN


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## Stolid Bull (Oct 4, 2012)

If you calculate the real costs it would have cost around 4000 to 5000 Euros. What Chris paid doesn't matter because that orice had no real calculation basis.
I hope that I can bring the riser into the market around March. More news then.


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## ArtV (Jan 29, 2008)

Stolid Bull said:


> If you calculate the real costs it would have cost around 4000 to 5000 Euros. What Chris paid doesn't matter because that orice had no real calculation basis.
> I hope that I can bring the riser into the market around March. More news then.


$5,300 to $6,600???? That's a pretty pricey bow eh?


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## Kosmo83 (Feb 6, 2009)

Yes and no,
my one is a prototype, just one of a kind ! So, if I sell this only bow, you have to pay the programming of the CAD, FEA, producing and so on. 
A friend of mine has a firm, he milled it for me for a realy good price. Normaly a smal prototype-series costs 10 000 euro for 5 pieces, only production-costs for this riser, becouse the metal-firm wants the CNC-program and tools paid after that 5 pieces.
So it is a lot of money you have to pay for prototypes, if you don't have the machines by your self.

ON THE OTHER HAND, Holger don't want to produce only a few prototypes, he wants to produce it for selling, than it will be much cheaper for one riser.


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## TexARC (Mar 5, 2003)

John - I saw the post about the Swedish bow/riser before I got to this one. It asks essentially WHY the riser has not gotten more attention and prominence over the years since I first posted a note to it (well, a video actually). <G>. 
I thought instantly upon seeing the design that one of its features, moving the grip CLOSER to the archer, was a recipe for instability and flaw magnification. 
I think that this riser (love the purty pictures!) moves in the opposite direction, probably offering a more stable, static, performance. Of course, I often have completely stupid notions.


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## Buck13 (Dec 13, 2011)

Mulcade said:


> MOI is Moment of Inertia for any of those scratching their heads.


It's also Multiplicity of Infection, if you're a virologist...


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## Stolid Bull (Oct 4, 2012)

Bigjono said:


> Damn, I want one of those


You are invited to be the fourth to get one...
No 1 and 2 go to Chris and his brother, no. 3 will be mine and from no. 4 on we will start selling them. Of course all with serial numbers.
Holger


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## Kosmo83 (Feb 6, 2009)

Hi, 

in my club, we have a new toy, a chrony 
So I played a little bit with my GMX and the Vanquish

Arrow: Harvest Time HT1 600 (305 grain)
GMX: W&W N-Apecs 70/44, 43 lbs on the fingers 202 fps
Vanquish: W&W ExPrime 68/40 (69" length), 43 on the fingers, 215 fps

This is not a perfect test, becouse I used different limbs. It was only testing the chrony.
But I like the the informations I get.

With VAP 600 (287 grain) 225 fps


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## gkonduris (Sep 10, 2007)

I'd have an interest but would depend on price point, grade of material used etc.

Sent from my SCH-I605 using Tapatalk 2


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## Kosmo83 (Feb 6, 2009)

Hi,

the price will be arround 850 Euro. The price isn't fixed yet, but this is the first calculation.
In the next few days you find an orderlist at http://www.stolid-bull.com/


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## Bigjono (Apr 21, 2009)

Kosmo83 said:


> Hi,
> 
> the price will be arround 850 Euro. The price isn't fixed yet, but this is the first calculation.
> In the next few days you find an orderlist at http://www.stolid-bull.com/


So that's about $1100 US is it?


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## Stolid Bull (Oct 4, 2012)

You are right.
It is very expensive!
The price is the result of several aspects of the production in which we did not want to accept compromises.
For example we use very expensive AL7075 alloy and we produce in a small company in Germany with skillfull craftsmen. In addition the series is small.
We did not want to let Chinese workers produce something of which we could not be sure concerning quality of manufacture and quality of material.
We cannot and we do not want to compete with the big players on the market. We would surely lose.
What we can do, is building top class products in small series for enthusiasts who are willing to pay a considerable price for something very exclusive and rare.


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## tomah (Aug 15, 2011)

this is really cool. cool to see a push in engineering and imagination


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## gkonduris (Sep 10, 2007)

Will left hand models be available?

Sent from my SCH-I605 using Tapatalk 2


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## Kosmo83 (Feb 6, 2009)

Not in the first step, but I think, if the orders for leftys are enough, a left-hand-version will be available too.


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## gkonduris (Sep 10, 2007)

Kosmo83 said:


> Not in the first step, but I think, if the orders for leftys are enough, a left-hand-version will be available too.


Thank you. Please keep me in mind when and if LH models become available. 

Sent from my SCH-I605 using Tapatalk 2


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## Kosmo83 (Feb 6, 2009)

LH will be available  please contact Holger


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## Kosmo83 (Feb 6, 2009)

The shown prototype is for sale, becouse I have to pay some bills.
If you are intrested, please write me


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## steve morley (Dec 24, 2005)

I have a Vanquish on order, when it arrives and I've had some time to tune/play I'll write a review :smile:


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## Kosmo83 (Feb 6, 2009)

steve that sounds nice, now the first numbers of vanquish can be orderd
http://www.stolid-bull.com/risers/vanquish/vanquish.html


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## w8lon (Jun 2, 2012)

I think you have a typo on your site as weight is 1800grams(581oz) 581 oz translates to 36.3125 pounds, which indeed is a very stout riser


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## Kosmo83 (Feb 6, 2009)

Yes, it is a heavy riser, but it is one reason, why it is so nice to shoot


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## Kosmo83 (Feb 6, 2009)

it is about 3,96 pounds.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

w8lon said:


> I think you have a typo on your site as weight is 1800grams(581oz) 581 oz translates to 36.3125 pounds, which indeed is a very stout riser


W8lon, try typing "1800 grams to pounds" into your search bar, and watch the miracle happen.


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## w8lon (Jun 2, 2012)

I know John, was just pointing out that website info states 1800 grams(581oz). I know that I am half blind but did not see a decimal point, so 58.1oz would equal 3.63lbs. Hmm, still doesn't convert to 3.96 pounds.

Nice looking risers BTW and very well thought design!


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## hoytshooter15 (Aug 13, 2012)

Never seen that riser in my life but now I suddenly want one


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## dkard (Sep 25, 2004)

I sort of want one too. Would like a Sky TR7 and a variable too.


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## Kosmo83 (Feb 6, 2009)

I'm still waiting for my production-type riser, but it should shoot like my prototype. Only some smal bugs are fixed, the look is a litle bit less bulky so, it is a realy nice, fast, but smoth shot, it only sounds a litle bit agressiv.
The new geometry works well, the adjustable plunger plock doesn't makes any problems, once fixed it, it stands without any jiggle.
So it is a riser for everyone who understands technique and wants a special riser, only produced in a smal quantity, designed/engeneered and made in germany


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## Kosmo83 (Feb 6, 2009)

Here are some Pictures of the Serial-Number V001, the Riser that my brother has. He was the Designer on CAD and analysed it with FEA, I designed the riser on paper, the new geometry and calculated the forces for the FEA.
The APB (adustable plunger block) is ready for the Shibuya Ultima rest and also fits the modul of the "Gabriel-Bogensport" arrow-rest.

Special color-designs like this can also anodized.


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## caspian (Jan 13, 2009)

w8lon said:


> I know John, was just pointing out that website info states 1800 grams(581oz). I know that I am half blind but did not see a decimal point, so 58.1oz would equal 3.63lbs. Hmm, still doesn't convert to 3.96 pounds.


1800g is 1.8Kg. at 2.20462 pounds per kilo, 1.8 x 2.20462 = 3.968316lb.

they have a decimal point missing in the oz value, and possibly a few rounding errors going on.


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## bobnikon (Jun 10, 2012)

Kosmo

For flexibility (options) did you give any thought to drilling it for a standard plunger in case people want to use an aftermarket rest and plunger instead of your supplied block?

Cheers


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## Kosmo83 (Feb 6, 2009)

You can use your Plunger with 5/16", that Plunger is just my personal one. You can also use a Decut rest. But the riser only works with that hight adjustable plungerblock, but that fits all 5/16" plungers.

Here you can see


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## steve morley (Dec 24, 2005)

Mine was shipped out today, should have it early next week :tongue:

Xmas came early


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## gster123 (Dec 17, 2012)

Would love to give one of these a trial for a couple of weeks before making a decision. To be honest it has pretty much all the features of an awesome riser.


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## Kosmo83 (Feb 6, 2009)

Do you know a shop who let you test a riser for a couple of weeks ?
Maybe for few arrows at but not for long, he wants to sell it new, not used 

But if you want, you can visit Holger near Hamburg or me, near Hannover and you can test our personal risers for an evening


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## steve morley (Dec 24, 2005)

I plan to shoot NFAA Nationals and WFAC in Yankton next year, if anybody wants a closer look at this riser or maybe try a few shots, you're welcome. End of the tourney, not in the middle :wink:


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## Kosmo83 (Feb 6, 2009)

Well,
my riser is now ready with anodizing 
It will shipped tomorrow, i hope the x-mas-trouble at DHL is not to big, so i will get it till thursday.


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## gster123 (Dec 17, 2012)

Kosmo83 said:


> Do you know a shop who let you test a riser for a couple of weeks ?
> Maybe for few arrows at but not for long, he wants to sell it new, not used
> 
> But if you want, you can visit Holger near Hamburg or me, near Hannover and you can test our personal risers for an evening


Guess it depends on who you are and how much they trust you. Had a trial or 2 in my prime. If I was going past and was right handed I would!


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## steve morley (Dec 24, 2005)

Mine arrived on Sat, I'm very pleased, seems to balance and hold aim better than anything I've tried before, nice shot reaction, great attention to detail and superb build quality.


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## Kosmo83 (Feb 6, 2009)

deliverd and ready build
Vanquish S/N V002


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## gster123 (Dec 17, 2012)

Looks stunning!


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## Kosmo83 (Feb 6, 2009)

First evening with the new Bow
don't analyse my shooting, yesterday was fitness-time, so I'm a little bit out of power


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## traditionalrj (Jun 8, 2011)

Whats the price of the black thunder ilf?


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## Kosmo83 (Feb 6, 2009)

Sorry, I don't know, please ask Holger: h.schraeer @ online.de (please leave blanks out)


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## Kosmo83 (Feb 6, 2009)

Hi,

before I saw the promition-Video of the Hoyt "Recurve-Stealth-Shot" I gambeld a little bit with a String-Stopper of my Compound.
The shot-reaktion is quite nice, like that one of a modern compound and it is quiet.
Only tuning with one arm is nearly impossible: Without stopper, the bare-shaft is almost 2 cm over the group, with stopper ca. 10 cm at 18m
But grouping is fine, maybe better, the feeling is verry nice and I think about a way to mount a second arm.


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## Kosmo83 (Feb 6, 2009)

More and more barebow-shooters are intrested in the Vanquish, on the first hand, that makes me proud, that our bow works so well, even without stabilizers, on the other hand, I'm a little bit sad, becouse it is designed for olympic recurve.
It is a verry accurate, precise, fast bow, with a good vibration-dampening and with the adjustable plunger block you have a tool to shrink your groops.
So I hope it finds his way to some good olympic recurve archers.

Yes, it is a heavy bow, but if you have more than 38lbs on the fingers, you don't realy notice, becouse it is well balancend, shoots verry nice and you don't feel any vibs


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

> So I hope it finds his way to some good olympic recurve archers.


Many good risers from reputable companies with long track records in the sport have failed to do this. Answer? Easy. Money. Top archers expect to be compensated as staff shooters. I really don't care how good your bow is (and I'm sure it shoots great, as you say) - just designing a great bow and then hoping some top shooters will choose to use it is an approach that's met with zero success by many companies.

The TR-7 riser produced by Mathews, and now SKY archery, had arguably two of the highest profile Olympic recurve archers on the planet shooting it (Vic and Brady). Both proved that it was a world class riser capable of 1350+ scores, and both archers wanted to continue using it. But those things alone were not enough. They have to make a living somehow.

There is a lesson there.

The best archers will choose the equipment that pays the most or offers the most support (in whatever fashion), so long as it doesn't hold them back. And that includes a wide range of gear in our sport.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Also, are you saying this riser is fita legal for barebow? It doesn't appear as though that grip and plunger/rest portion would fit through a 12.2 cm ring.

Beautiful anodize job by the way.


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## Kosmo83 (Feb 6, 2009)

John,
it fits a 12,2 cm ring, no problem, the apb is usable less than 2 cm as overdraw, so it is also legal.
Becouse of the geometry and the poind of gravity the backroll even without a waight is verry less.
http://tradtalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=44714&highlight=vanquish

But all these atributs are also good in olympic style. Yes, I know that brady and co. have to pay there bills, and no small producer can pay prices like hoyt and w&w, so this riser just have the chance to be the best, 10 rings more than normal  maybe somebody wants it without money  just for winning  sorry, joking.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Okay, thanks for the clarification. I was thinking it fit the rule, but it's hard to tell from the photo.

As for 10 rings more than normal, that would be fine but the sponsorship/marketing model is a self-fulfilling prophecy, as I'm sure you know. You "hire" the best shooters, who are going to shoot the best scores regardless of what they use, then you get to take "credit" for their success and say it was due to them using the "best" product. ha, ha. We all know how it works. It's amazing to me how some folks can still be ignorant to the process though, and truly believe what they are being told.

I wish you success with this endeavor. There is always room for a great product in any market.


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## Kosmo83 (Feb 6, 2009)

Hoyt can one thing better than all others, not building bows and limbs, i think they are only good middleclass, but you said right, they hired the best archery, have the best promotion-office, and that is what they can better than all others.
If the bow is good enough to win, good, if not, so the koreans are the best archery, maybe that was the fault


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Oh, I wouldn't go that far. Most companies would do well to get their risers up to Hoyt's standards, I think.


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## rasyad (Nov 22, 2005)

I agree with Hoyt's machining quality. The shoot through compound target risers are truly state of the art CNC. 

Rasyad


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## jmvargas (Oct 21, 2004)

i have always liked hoyt risers....hoyt limbs---not so much..


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## Kosmo83 (Feb 6, 2009)

rasyad said:


> I agree with Hoyt's machining quality. The shoot through compound target risers are truly state of the art CNC.
> 
> Rasyad


Yes, they are state of the art, but the quality of some bows are awful, bad surface, not correct milled and so on.
Also new elements like the "Air-Shox" are bad engeneering, I saw them for the first time and said, they will break on this point, 6 month later in the german forum the first users told story about broken Air-Shox-Arms... on the waek point i noticed.

But back to the recurve, the last "big" development was the formula-system, but the reason was not the better lever-arm, only to force the archery to buy limbs and riser from Hoyt.
Next part, the HPX-Geometry, ok, nice, i think a litle bit to agressiv and for long archers a little bit nearvous in aiming, but a difference since the old TD4.
The Recurve-Stealth-Shot, no big deal, take a part from the other devison (Compound) put it on the recurve, notice, "fu..k, i need two of them, becouse with one arm, the tuning is is like cra.p" and ready... thinking of one morning plus testing.
Nice to have (I tested it with the Vanquish) but I (and that means nothing) don't shoot one ringe more with it, it just feels nice.


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## kenn1320 (Aug 28, 2004)

Kosmo83 said:


> Yes, they are state of the art, but the quality of some bows are awful, bad surface, not correct milled and so on.
> Also new elements like the "Air-Shox" are bad engeneering, I saw them for the first time and said, they will break on this point, 6 month later in the german forum the first users told story about broken Air-Shox-Arms... on the waek point i noticed.
> 
> *But back to the recurve, the last "big" development was the formula-system, but the reason was not the better lever-arm, only to force the archery to buy limbs and riser from Hoyt.*Next part, the HPX-Geometry, ok, nice, i think a litle bit to agressiv and for long archers a little bit nearvous in aiming, but a difference since the old TD4.
> ...


Has your brother confirmed this with his FEA? I think we all would like to see the results. Im also curious, "one off" personal stuff is one thing, but now that these are going into production(albiet limited quantity) has Stolid licensed the use of those Mathews Dampers?


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## Kosmo83 (Feb 6, 2009)

no the stealt-shot-system was only try and error, no fea.
about the rest, i don't have an answer, becouse stolid-bull sells the bow, me and my brother are only the desihgners, we sold the rights to sb


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## kenn1320 (Aug 28, 2004)

The FEA question was directed towards the Hoyt Formula system you mentioned was a marketing ploy to force hoyt users to buy hoyt limbs. Not only does it apply the load over a larger area(allowing them to minimize mass in the pocket area) but also allows them to change the CG to a more desireable area.


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## Kosmo83 (Feb 6, 2009)

ok, thats what you mean, sorry.
we simulated the ILF-System and I calculated the forces for the Formula-System. Yes, it is a litle bit better, thats right (but you pay it with a shorter bow-window).
But it is not realy necessarry, becouse the normal ilf is strong enough. 
Yes, I did some FEA with the formula forces, but I don't show the results, becouse it was just gambling and all analyses are part of the deal with stolid bull


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

That right there, is a whole load of STUFF on a simple spring. LOL! Wow.


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## caspian (Jan 13, 2009)

Kosmo83 said:


> Also new elements like the "Air-Shox" are bad engeneering, I saw them for the first time and said, they will break on this point, 6 month later in the german forum the first users told story about broken Air-Shox-Arms... on the waek point i noticed.


I have yet to see a broken Airshox arm which was not the result of a derail. I admit to not reading German forums, but I do extensively read the three English language forums which cover the predominant art of the sport on the planet, and I regard that as being conclusive.

there is a significant difference between bad engineering and a bad concept in the first place.


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## kenn1320 (Aug 28, 2004)

Kosmo83 said:


> ok, thats what you mean, sorry.
> we simulated the ILF-System and I calculated the forces for the Formula-System. Yes, it is a litle bit better, thats right (but you pay it with a shorter bow-window).
> But it is not realy necessarry, becouse the normal ilf is strong enough.
> Yes, I did some FEA with the formula forces, but I don't show the results, becouse it was just gambling and all analyses are part of the deal with stolid bull


First let me say I truly like the look of the riser, and can appreciate the effort you guys put into it. It just gets old hearing people bash the Hoyt system and write it off as a marketing gimmic. Look at your limb pocket area, note the bridging and cross sectional area. Can you honestly tell me the current ILF distance is strong enough, yet produce such a pocket area that is noticibly larger(stiffer) then anything else on the market, while at the same time tell us Hoyts formula is a gimmic(and its arguably the smallest limb pocket area we have seen)? Again hats off to you guys for your efforts, but dont feed the wolves around here with that sort of crap. 3 months from now one of them will post "Well the guys who engineered the Stolid Bull risers did FEA on the Formula stuff and said its just crap to force people into a hoyt limb".


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## Kosmo83 (Feb 6, 2009)

Sorry, maybe lost in translation, my fault! I don't think, that the Formula-System is crap it is a little bit better, but not realy necessary.
Our limb-pocket isn't so bulky like it looks on fotos. Not all of the pocket is necessary to stabilize the limb and bring the forces to the riser, 50% of that is just the design-shape.
I don't like the Formula-sytsem becouse the arm of the formula-system isn't fixed for torsion or swinging from side to side, but thats just my personal opinion.
But on the other hand, the PSE X-factor or X-Appel have a realy small pocket too, with ilf.

The ILF-System is strong enough, the formula is on the paper a little bit better, but both can build stiff enough.

Other Question, when the Formula-System is so good, why the hoyt GMX ? Ion-X with ILF-System ?
If I am proud about my new system, I would build new risers ONLY with the new Formula-System. I would just produce Limbs with both systems, for my old risers (GMX and older) or for the other risers on the market. 
But MY riser would all get the formula-system, when it is so much better


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## Kosmo83 (Feb 6, 2009)

sorry hoyt gpx


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## steve morley (Dec 24, 2005)

The APB isn't Barebow or even Bowhunter legal at this moment as the adjuster wheel is in the sight window, Holger told me he is addressing this with a smaller thumb wheel and will send when available.

I'm still on my honeymoon period, got a little bored with the indoor rounds and went to the forest for some long range shooting. I walk off the range smiling to myself, it's just so nice to shoot


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## Kosmo83 (Feb 6, 2009)

I know, that some archers shoot the OK-Match with a simmilar adjuster wheel in germany WA/FITA Stringwalking, so I don't know, if it is legal, sorry I don't shoot barebow.


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## steve morley (Dec 24, 2005)

Kosmo83 said:


> I know, that some archers shoot the OK-Match with a simmilar adjuster wheel in germany WA/FITA Stringwalking, so I don't know, if it is legal, sorry I don't shoot barebow.


It only takes one person to object at International tourney and your week is ruined (I plan to shoot WA World Field champs in Croatia) and it's not a risk I'm willing to take. I would be happier to shoot with 100% legal Barebow, it's a very minor thing that can be fixed easily


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## Kosmo83 (Feb 6, 2009)

http://tradtalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=45142&highlight=vanquish

a comparison of the TR7 and the Vanquish


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