# Wiawis Foam Limbs



## airwolfipsc (Apr 2, 2008)

I hear its the same feel as the expower..have only seen this limb action in vegas
not outdoors. Im sold on speed and smoothness of quattros for now.


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## aerotec88 (Apr 19, 2013)

airwolfipsc said:


> I hear its the same feel as the expower..have only seen this limb action in vegas
> not outdoors. Im sold on speed and smoothness of quattros for now.


Really? Do you think the quattros are faster and smoother than the ex powers?


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## MartinOttosson (May 31, 2011)

aerotec88 said:


> Really? Do you think the quattros are faster and smoother than the ex powers?


I would say that they are similar in speed and draw smoothness. The EX feels somewhat more pure synthetic as in "plastic and hollow" in the shot compared to the Quattros. Not better or worse, just slightly different. In my opinion both are within an margin of what doesnt matter practically for the archer. None of them will ever hold you back. 

However, in terms of consistancy and quality, W&W is just in another league than Hoyt. W&W had some years with high blowup frequency, but nowadays failures are rare. And the straightness average is in the market front, I would say. According to my experience there´s less risk of getting a bad pair however with W&W in comparison with the Hoyts if ordered by mail. Hoyt limbs on mail order is a gamble. Even within the high end stuff I´ve seen many really bad pairs that makes me wonder how Hoyt check their stuff before it leaves the factory. Most limb pairs are acceptable, but many are not. I checked all pairs of F4:s a small shop had in stock two years ago for example. 2 were ok out of 7. Perfect or close to perfect pairs are really rare. But if you get one, they are great limbs. With W&W on the other hand there´s almost never any problems. I´ve just seen a few pairs over the years that have been distorted or unbalanced in built in tiller. You have to have bad luck to not get a good pair.


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## airwolfipsc (Apr 2, 2008)

+1 on winwin QC. Love the smoothness draw of quattros. Reminds me of samick masters
or my Yamaha limbs.


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## airwolfipsc (Apr 2, 2008)

Both quattros and expowers are used in the Pro circuit. It comes down to mental training and forgiving form that wins!


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## aerotec88 (Apr 19, 2013)

That's some really good info. All of these will be mail order to the local archery shop since they don't stock them. Although, I'm working with the owner because he is thinking of ordering a whole bunch of Olympic gear and he's just as curious as I am in learning more about win win. I realize that all these limbs will shoot better than I can ever hope to shoot, but it is nice to hear about people's experiences with the product instead of just reading win win's crappy English translation of their brochure. They could definitely use a better English marketing team.


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## Ten_Zen (Dec 5, 2010)

I have seen them being shot by the Finland National team when they were training at the Easton Archery center in salt lake city last week. They were slamming gold all day long at 70m. Arrow flight looks good, speed was definitely there. One thing I noticed is the core of the "green font" limb is that new flaxpreg material, which I know nothing about. That, plus the fact that nothing innovative has happened in regards to the profile, design, or assembly of the limb makes me entirely skeptical about them. It seems like just a recycled ex-power design made with an experimental material. In other words, its a gimmick. Let the people with company sponsorships do the leg work on the pros and cons of flax preg. I imagine once the "new gear" shine has faded they will preform on par or even slightly worse than ex-powers. If you really wanna buy into an innovative company, get some Uukha limbs. Monolithic carbon is a real advancement in limb technology that dramatically increases the lifespan of the limb and the long term consistency of behavior in different weather conditions. In addition, they have a range of limb profiles to choose from which each provide a dramatically different draw force curve (real results). My two cents


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## airwolfipsc (Apr 2, 2008)

+1 uukha is different design. Different animal per say if you havent shot one.
since 90s circuit. New thing I like now are tecbar. Carbonheavy riser inno or nanomax..x10
and this uukha limbs! Everything else is the same. Plus with all this innovation, equiptment
should get us to shoot EASIER MORE ACCURATE outdoor but I noticed pros are still
avg 42lbs or more outdoor.


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## theminoritydude (Feb 11, 2013)

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bast_fibre

The material (according to one Korean coach) forms a separate layer under the carbon layer, to enhance its performance, and is not part of what defines the core. 

And yes, it is faster.


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## aerotec88 (Apr 19, 2013)

Ten_Zen said:


> If you really wanna buy into an innovative company, get some Uukha limbs. Monolithic carbon is a real advancement in limb technology that dramatically increases the lifespan of the limb and the long term consistency of behavior in different weather conditions. In addition, they have a range of limb profiles to choose from which each provide a dramatically different draw force curve (real results). My two cents


I agree that Uukha is definitely innovative, but I'm not entirely sold on their concept. In one of my engineering composites classes, we had a class competition to build recurve limbs out of unidirectional pre-preg high modulus carbon sheets. The thing that I learned from that project is that carbon is really heavy compared to an expanded material such as foam or even wood. Since we were only allowed to use carbon, our limbs came out really heavy (not draw weight, but physical mass). About 90% of the energy stored in recurve limbs is in the very outside layer of composite. The rest of the material through the center just acts as a spacer to build up your moment of inertia (It puts the tensile loads on the outer most surface). So if you can use a foam or wood core that is lighter than carbon, then I would think the limb would be lighter, more stable, and more damped. But maybe this is the engineer in me that is making some bad assumptions.


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## MJAnderson68 (Nov 15, 2013)

In case you're interested in how the Uukhas are made. It's marketing, but still interesting.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DYm16NgvU68


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## aerotec88 (Apr 19, 2013)

MJAnderson68 said:


> In case you're interested in how the Uukhas are made. It's marketing, but still interesting.
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DYm16NgvU68


Yeah, this is actually a very similar process we used to construct our limbs. Our goal was to hit 50 lbs at 28" of draw. We ended up hitting 50 lbs at 27.5", but it was close enough. But looking at their limbs, I just can't help but notice all that heavy carbon sitting near the center of the limb really not doing anything while it is being shot. The most it can be doing is providing lateral stiffness if they've oriented the fibers in a +- 45 degree or 90 degree.


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## theminoritydude (Feb 11, 2013)

aerotec88 said:


> The rest of the material through the center just acts as a spacer to build up your moment of inertia (It puts the tensile loads on the outer most surface).


Did you mean "second moment of area"?


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## aerotec88 (Apr 19, 2013)

theminoritydude said:


> Did you mean "second moment of area"?


Haha. Yes, thank you. I guess that what I get for writing that while trying to do homework at the same time. Wrong I. 

Also, I found this article. http://archery.berkeley.edu/wp-content/uploads/2011/08/Fundamentals-of-the-Design-of-Olympic-Recurve-Bows.pdf

This was a pretty good read which brings up some good points. The Uukha limbs are definitely faster and probably smoother, but I'm not sure how they would do on a win win riser. They may feel unstable. But I guess since one of my biggest problems is getting through the clicker, then maybe I should make "smoothness" more of a priority. I'm starting to get the feeling I won't ever really know unless I just buy all the limbs and try them side by side. Unfortunately, that won't ever happen.


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## Ten_Zen (Dec 5, 2010)

Ah my bad, I said core. The core is wood. But what I mean is that the new material is still a relative mystery in terms of performance, so I would wait until they have been around for long enough to form an educated opinion about them. 

Aerotec, that sounds like a really cool class to take! And as far as the Uukha limbs go, i think that the all carbon design is meant to help with torsional stiffness and consistency in varying shooting conditions. Plus the overall lifespan of the limb is increased due to the fact that it cannot de-laminate. But i am a Physicist not an engineer so I am really not an expert. All I know is that I shoot the Vx 1000's on my W&W AL1 and I absolutely love them. The smoothness is AWESOME. No more clicker panic, no more forcing the shot. I couldnt be happier with them!


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## aerotec88 (Apr 19, 2013)

Ten Zen, are you shooting the xcurves or just the curves? Would the xcurves be less stable?


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## Ten_Zen (Dec 5, 2010)

I use Xcurves. That is a good question and I am not sure I can answer it. I know that the curve of the limb is unstable during the draw due to the deformation caused by being pulled against the curve, but that is true for all recurves. I Imagine that the more you curve the limb, the more unstable it will be during the draw, but at full draw the stability is the same throughout the limb regardless of the curve. During the power stroke, the limb is reforming. However, no external forces (except gravity and drag which can be negated for the purpose of calculating limb stability) are acting on the limb. So the torque at full draw is what causes the limb behavior after the shot. A small amount of torque on a more unstable limb should cause more lateral string motion during the powerstroke. So I THINK that yes they are more unstable, but because they are virtually impervious to lateral twisting, i am not sure if that is true. I want to do some slow mo testing.


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## aerotec88 (Apr 19, 2013)

Thanks Ten Zen, that info helps a lot. I'm still not sure if I'm ready to switch over to such an extreme limb curve profile, but I'm starting to lean more back towards going with a Uukha limb. The reason for this is because a friend of mine let me shoot his EX powers the other day and I was kind of unimpressed in some ways. My current limbs are 36# Hoyt carbon kinetics that I have cranked up to 40#. The EX Powers I tried are 38# that were pulling 42# on my bow. I shot his limbs quite a few times and I noticed that there is a lot less vibration and they are a bit smoother to draw back even though they were a couple of pounds heavier. But then I shot both sets of limbs through a chronograph and I got

Hoyt kinetic 40#: 300 gr arrow at 28" draw - 189 fps
WW EX Power 42#: 300 gr arrow at 28" draw - 191 fps

So after all this, I'm not so sold on WW limbs anymore. Besides being just a little bit smoother and less vibration through the shot, they're actually a little bit slower (given the increase in poundage) than my wood-carbon limbs that are over 10 years old. Now I'm sure a lot of you guys won't believe this test, or that I messed something up, but both sets of limbs I weighed on a bow scale and shot through a professional grade chrono at Jake's Archery. So perhaps the Uukha's might be a few fps faster, but I just like the looks of them better. I'm now thinking of getting the UX100's. Opinions are welcome.


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## zal (May 1, 2007)

That's sort of moot test, if you shoot the same arrow. It would require different tune to get full energy out of limbs. I think Frangilli's test is best in that instance, as it tests the minimal poundage required to tune a certain arrow.

I shot a lot of arrows through chrono with different limbs back in the day, in the end I could manipulate results to give me similar results by changing tune, without really touching poundage.

I'm not quite sold on Uukhas yet, they are fairly heavy and surprisingly not quite so fast as I'd expected. As far as W&W and Hoyt goes, W&W has been one step ahead for years now, so I'd expect to get similar performance out of current Hoyt top limbs and previous model W&W limbs, but I'd expect to hit the middle with both of them equally if tuned well.

And as far as the wiawis limbs that were shot at Easton faculty mentioned above, I've seen photos of the groups shot there and they were quite good, with some 59's and 60's :zip:


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## Ten_Zen (Dec 5, 2010)

Dont fear the more aggressive profile of the xcurve, I have only noticed benefits, no setbacks. Unless you count that you have to pay a little more attention when youre stringing them because the stringer has a tendency to want to go to the side of the limb instead of under it. But I have tried a lot of limbs recently, and I really cant say I felt a huge difference between any of them. A little faster here, a little smoother there, but overall the same general feeling through the draw and about the same performance. Then I tried the Vx1000's and I was immediately impressed. Very different feeling in the draw. Much smoother, especially the last couple inches. And then I shot my first inside out XXX followed by my first 60 (same round). Since then I have pushed my average up to almost 280, and just last week I shot my first 290 (indoor). I cant give all the credit to the limbs, I have been really getting the hang of NTS recently, but I can say that i saw immediate group improvement at 50 and 70m and my scores have been consistently above my average prior to using them (272 indoor).


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## zal (May 1, 2007)

Just another 2 cents, flax fiber reinforced composites are quite the new trend. In essence it would give more uniform structure with less heat and humidity variation, so in essence fewer breakages. I was chatting with a mate who works in aeronautical engineering research and there some see long flax fibers and other biomaterials as the next big thing. I think W&W has always been pushing the envelope, synerzy limbs back in the day were very experimental and a lot of carbon-alu composite stuff has been quite advanced, considering they have been doing them more than ten years now.

Some biofibers are actually hemp fibers so research and manufacturing has been in Europe and Asia, as they have been illegal (afaik) to grow even for industrial usage in USA, until couple of years ago.


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## williamskg6 (Dec 21, 2008)

Flax fiber is being used by Schwinn for a bicycle frame. There's a shop in town that has one and it's quite interesting, albeit very expensive. 

http://bicycletimesmag.com/review-schwinn-vestige-made-from-flax-fiber/

It's supposedly more environmentally friendly. It doesn't have quite the performance/stiffness of carbon though. I figure if it's strong enough to be used in a bicycle frame, it should be more than strong enough for limbs. 

-Kent W.


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## WhiteRider (Jun 2, 2013)

So I may be allittle late to the party, but i thought I would throw out my two cents. In thd past year I havr shot ExPowers regularly and now Uukhas Ex10 or Ex100. Cant recdll atm. Boh these limbs feel and shot pretty similarly. Id be lying if I tried to say one way or the other which was faster but im leaning towards saying the uukgas are vased on my sight markings. Both very solid limbs and very solid feel. Expowers possibly a bit softer on the draw though. Id say you couldnt go wrong with either.
Thats said I recently had the chance to try the WiaWis One foam cores. Setup was 36# longs on a 25" wiawis riser. I have a 31" draw amd was expecting to feel about 40-42 oft. I have to say these limbs felt and pulled closer to what I would have guessed 32-34lbs oft based on feel. They are def a soft pulling limb. I didnt get enough time with them to comment on speed though. Additionally the limb itself feeld lighter so thisbmay help pick up some of the speed. They do feel nice and i would need more time with them to give a final say.
I have also had the chance to try a set of VX1000s breifly. One shot. But i was blown away. 40-42# oft fingers sent me to about 50yds wih what is my typical 20 yd pin is set to with 38#oft finger ex10/100s. The draw force curve is also extremely different. Very pronounced and you can feel the changes in the curve and the preload of the limb wih their extreme recurve. Overall very solid.
I will close with I just ordered a set of HEX6.5 Borders and will have them in about a month. Ive shot with someone who has a set of 26# hex6.5s and swithng to them from equicalent uukhas ex10/100s moved his sight mark from 18 to 8. They where that much faster. He chronoed them both well tuned and Borders came out way ahead. This and tryig xcurves was what convinced me to go borders.


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## aerotec88 (Apr 19, 2013)

Okay, so here's an update. After researching more about recurve limb geometry and stability, I basically came to the conclusion that no one really has any solid data to prove that one geometry is superior over another. The article out of Berkeley mentioned above hints at being a good, factual article, but I feel like it's missing data to really back any of its claims. That being said, based on the review that I have been able to find from users, I decided to go against my better judgement and take a risk on the VX1000 Xcurve's. I figure that any of these limbs can shoot better than I can, so I thought it would be fun to give them a try since the EX Power's didn't perform nearly as well as I hoped in my preliminary chrono tests. I also ordered a WW Inno Max carbon black riser, so this bow should look pretty good at least. If I can't shoot well, then I might as well look good doing it. So in a month's time or so when I receive my bow, I'll put together a little test between the VX1000's and as many other limbs I can find (not many out here in the West). Thanks guys for your experience and opinions about this stuff. I don't really have anything else to go on out here because of the lack of recurve bows in the area. I'll be sure to post a link to my review of the VX1000's in this thread when I get them.


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## Dacer (Jun 10, 2013)

Well speed is everything in recurve target archery.


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## aerotec88 (Apr 19, 2013)

Speed is kind of important to me, but stability and smoothness are really important, I think. But I'll know more after I try these new limbs. I felt like buying Uukha simply because I've never even seen a set before and my curiosity won't stop until I try them.


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## zal (May 1, 2007)

Never heard a top archer talk about bow speed. Grouping and tuneability is all that matters to them. BTW those Wiawis limbs that were punching groups on gold at Easton centre few days back just won Finnish indoor nationals this saturday.


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## aerotec88 (Apr 19, 2013)

I agree that speed isn't all that important in a fita round, but there are a lot of field tournaments with unmarked yardage out here and a flatter trajectory has helped me in the past.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

zal said:


> Never heard a top archer talk about bow speed. Grouping and tuneability is all that matters to them. BTW those Wiawis limbs that were punching groups on gold at Easton centre few days back just won Finnish indoor nationals this saturday.


Well, there was some nonsense coming out of one top archer just before London about speed, but if you hear a top archer talking about speed, it's because they are trying to sell something to those who truly believe it's that important.


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## theminoritydude (Feb 11, 2013)

There are two types of archers. One values speed above all else. The other, thinks little of it.

Turns out they are the same.


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## Ten_Zen (Dec 5, 2010)

Excellent choice aerotec. I look forward to your review!


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## Daniel L (Nov 23, 2013)

Any reviews on the Uukhas woudl be appreciated... they are creating a marketing buzz, but there seems to be a lack of reviews, compared to the Borders which are very well established.


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## rstgyx (Apr 13, 2013)

Win&Win just posted this image on their Facebook page: 











> Do you know about "Flaxpreg"? This is the half-cut wooden layer you can see at the back of each ‪#‎wiawis‬ one limbs. Both wood and foam cores editions. It has revolutionary properties which redefine shock absorbance as an arrow is shot. The future of archery is here!


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## Ten_Zen (Dec 5, 2010)

Daniel L said:


> Any reviews on the Uukhas woudl be appreciated... they are creating a marketing buzz, but there seems to be a lack of reviews, compared to the Borders which are very well established.


http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=2419026 

I am going to do more chronograph testing soon but here a little review of mine./


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