# Young vs Old



## erose (Aug 12, 2014)

Recently I was watching some of the international competitions on archery tv on youtube, one thing I noticed in the competition: All the participants are relatively young! Where are the older shooters? The best I can figure on archery is that it is a skills sport. Granted being able to pull more weight has some advantages, or having younger, sharper eyes, maybe (of course you can correct that with glasses); but for the most part it is a skills sport. One would think that if you have two archers who lets say start shooting at the same age with similar skill sets and the same dedication, that the archer who has been shooting longer should be a better shot right? or wrong? 

If Brady Ellison keeps shooting, and keeps the same training regimen, shouldn't he be a better archer in 15 years than he is now? Or am I missing something? So my question are: Why are the best archers competing in the international tournaments, so young? And where are all the gray-beards (or heads for the ladies)?


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## chrstphr (Nov 23, 2005)

most older archers have a business, major job/career, family, kids etc and cant take off all the time to shoot the USATS to get a high enough rolling rank to make the world cup teams. Most of the international Team qualifiers are USATS. Older archers cant afford to give as much time to the sport as younger kids can. 

Most of the younger competing archers, suspend college for a year or three, can afford to do the RA thing for a while, live at home so costs are low. etc,etc. 

Personally i think the older archers are better suited for the world competition field, as they have a better mental game, arent worried about keeping their RA status or worrying about college and what they will do after.

Personally i am already in the after. I have a business, have a wife and kid, and can afford to fund my own equipment and travel to tournaments. I am not under any pressure to keep any sponsors or qualify for the RA program. I shoot because i love it, and i'm gray haired. I devote a lot of time to archery with my shooting and the JOAD i volunteer with. 

There are a few still going strong, Reo and his brother arent spring chickens. Neither is Katuna or Butch Johnson. Vic Wonderle still going strong even though his Silver olympic medal was almost 15 years ago. John Magera wasnt a youth when he made the 2004 Olympic team ( ten years ago). 

Chris


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## OldSchoolNEO (May 11, 2009)

erose said:


> ...And where are all the gray-beards (or heads for the ladies)?


They most likely are at home with their spouse, kids and jobs.
International travel is expensive and time consuming.
It is quite hard to live a productive life and shoot competitively.
Either require your full attention and focus; and as the bible says, you cannot serve two masters.
That's just my opinion, so take it with a grain of salt.


Sorry @chrstphr, you hit send before me


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## Vittorio (Jul 17, 2003)

Archery is now eactly same as majority of other sports. You need a lot of time, a strong body and a lot of money to get to the top, and only very few get back something form the investments they do. Many times I have pointed out that we need 7 years of hard training to make a top competitive archer in western countries and around 5 years in Korea. Starting at 10 to 12, of course... Then, Olympic Games came every 4 years only, so a young person reaching the top level may have 2 or maximum 3 Olympic cycles to face... and you are suddenly 28 to 30 years old, with other younger and strongers coming behind you ... So, in 99% of the cases, you wil get a real job and a family before loosing your place in your national team, and the salary related to it. May be you can win an Olympic Medal here and there, and then find motivation and money for a longer career, but honestly this is not a real possibility for 99% of top level archers... 
Best performances are therefore basically possible from 19 to 27,... then the other mentioned factors take over ... Ok I know, Buch Jonhnson is an exception, an my son is also on the same way to be an exception, as in Rio he wil be 40 , like Buch was in Atlanta ... But, exceptions are.... exceptions....


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## Ten_Zen (Dec 5, 2010)

Vittorio said:


> Best performances are therefore basically possible from 19 to 27,... then the other mentioned factors take over


I know you are a very experienced coach, but I have to balk at 27 being a cutoff for any aspect of an archers upper limit of performance be it physical, mental, or emotional. Maybe most people lose interest at that time in their life because they have other concerns, but as far as physical ability goes, I think most of us know that 27 is by no means the peak of physical strength or stamina. The mental/emotional game continues to improve for years to come (and to factor in the typical emotional insanity most people go through in their early twenties, I would say that ones prime focusing ability doesn't begin until 27 or later). And then we come to financial/time constraints. Yes, if your parents haven't cut you off by 27, and you weren't born rich, odds are you are struggling to make ends meet at this age, probably have a kid or two, and can't practice as much. But for those of us who are lucky to not be encumbered by such constraints, age ain't nothin but a number


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## TER (Jul 5, 2003)

Ten_Zen said:


> I know you are a very experienced coach, but I have to balk at 27 being a cutoff for any aspect of an archers upper limit of performance be it physical, mental, or emotional.


Vittorio didn't state that physical, mental, or emotional performance drops off at 27. He explained that due to the practical realities of life age 19 to 27 is when elite archers are most likely to peak.


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## erose (Aug 12, 2014)

So basically there isn't enough money in the sport yet, to sustain a true adult's economic needs? Unless perhaps you are really, really good.


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## lksseven (Mar 21, 2010)

Ten_Zen said:


> I know you are a very experienced coach, but I have to balk at 27 being a cutoff for any aspect of an archers upper limit of performance be it physical, mental, or emotional. Maybe most people lose interest at that time in their life because they have other concerns, but as far as physical ability goes, I think most of us know that 27 is by no means the peak of physical strength or stamina. The mental/emotional game continues to improve for years to come (and to factor in the typical emotional insanity most people go through in their early twenties, I would say that ones prime focusing ability doesn't begin until 27 or later). And then we come to financial/time constraints. Yes, if your parents haven't cut you off by 27, and you weren't born rich, odds are you are struggling to make ends meet at this age, probably have a kid or two, and can't practice as much. But for those of us who are lucky to not be encumbered by such constraints, age ain't nothin but a number


TER is right.

And, imo, taking exception with Vittorio is like arguing with Moses about the 10 commandments ...


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## chrstphr (Nov 23, 2005)

erose said:


> So basically there isn't enough money in the sport yet, to sustain a true adult's economic needs? Unless perhaps you are really, really good.


even the really really good dont make much money. There is not really any money in the sport. The list of archers making over $100K per year is virtually non existent, maybe two or three guys tops. The list of archers making $50k per year is very very short. And mostly compound shooters. 


Chris


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## Ten_Zen (Dec 5, 2010)

lksseven said:


> TER is right.
> 
> And, imo, taking exception with Vittorio is like arguing with Moses about the 10 commandments ...


I hear a lot of discouraging statements from the top coaches about the age window for top tier achievement. Kinda makes it a self fulfilling prophecy if every experienced coach says you're too old to win. I respectfully disagree.


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## SkiSoloII (Dec 11, 2011)

I seem to recall a pretty recent exception: http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=2199208&highlight=france

Seems she had the time (and innate talent).

Dave


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## bobnikon (Jun 10, 2012)

A few interesting articles/pages

http://www.theguardian.com/sport/datablog/2012/aug/07/olympics-2012-athletes-age-weight-height#age
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/special/sports/profiles-in-speed/age/sports-by-age.html
http://blog.minitab.com/blog/real-w...akdown-of-american-medalists-by-sport-and-age


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## Stone Bridge (May 20, 2013)

Where do you draw the line at old? I consider 30 old in endurance sports like running. In sports like archery I think there are such fine motor skills at work as the shot leaves the bow that people over 35 or so cannot compete as a general rule at the very top levels. I mean correcting hold with the arrow still on the string after release. I've seen this in person and on film. It's amazing. As we get older that one ability, as an example, goes away because our fine motor skills erode. Nothing replaces youth if the young person has talent and works hard. I always bet on the young.


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## itbeso (Jul 6, 2005)

Stone Bridge said:


> Where do you draw the line at old? I consider 30 old in endurance sports like running. In sports like archery I think there are such fine motor skills at work as the shot leaves the bow that people over 35 or so cannot compete as a general rule at the very top levels. I mean correcting hold with the arrow still on the string after release. I've seen this in person and on film. It's amazing. As we get older that one ability, as an example, goes away because our fine motor skills erode. Nothing replaces youth if the young person has talent and works hard. I always bet on the young.


Obviously you do not adhere to the old credo that old age and treachery trumps youth and skill every time.lol


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## Stone Bridge (May 20, 2013)

itbeso said:


> Obviously you do not adhere to the old credo that old age and treachery trumps youth and skill every time.lol


itbeso, I know who you are as a shooter. I know what you've done as a man over 35. You're ruining my argument. You're a terrible example.  I was thinking of international 70 meter Olympic shooting at the very top level. I don't think you shoot those events. No doubt you'd be good at it even at your age, but I'd still go with a talented kid. Now if you could travel to a contest at lightspeed and arrive at 25 years of age, I'd not discount you at all.

I still remember what it was like to be 25. You are never going to be better. Not stronger or more cat-like in your movements. It's a huge advantage in any athletic event.


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## Mr. Roboto (Jul 13, 2012)

In the US, if you don't have a lot of money, the entire system is against you for being the best of the best and this is across all sports. It doesn't matter how much raw talent a person has, if he/she cant go the all the "right" events, they don't get to go to the "right" events.

Its sad, but that is just the way it is.

I am rooting for Ben to make the Olympic team. He will break all the stereotypes of youngsters being the only ones allowed at the Olympics. Go Ben Go


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## OCBrent (Sep 27, 2007)

In Regards to $ in the Sport. I'm guessing the most (and deepest) pool of money is in Korea, and from this article:
http://www.theinfinitecurve.com/archery/getting-paid-shoot/



> At the recent Asian Games, Korean archers and coaches collectively received nearly 880 million won (over £500,000 / $800,000) in bonuses from their sponsor Hyundai for the five golds, three silvers and one bronze medal they took home from Incheon.
> 
> The going rate for a gold medal is 70 million won (about £41,000 / $65,000), with 60 million won for a silver and 50 for a bronze. Not bad, and apparently more than the government bonus for Olympic gold medals in 2012 – although in Korea that also gets you a monthly stipend for life. Hyundai handed out similar bonuses to the medallists after London, and indeed Korea’s big corporations step in with cash for all kinds of Olympic sports, and become fairy godfathers to many types of athletes.


Brent (2nd highest USA National Ranking old guy, after Mr. Johnson. way, way down after


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## TER (Jul 5, 2003)

bobnikon said:


> A few interesting articles/pages
> 
> http://www.theguardian.com/sport/datablog/2012/aug/07/olympics-2012-athletes-age-weight-height#age


Jake Kaminski is 6 feet 10 inches tall?


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## steve morley (Dec 24, 2005)

Just when I think I may be getting past it and will lose my competitive edge against younger shooters Ben comes along and prove me wrong.


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## j.conner (Nov 12, 2009)

I think it is the practicalities of life that skews the age range. Competing at the Olympic level in any sport, and what is required to attain that level, requires a lot of support. Older athletes would more likely be self-supporting, which is a taller order than having family/friends/sponsors do it. It will be interesting to see, however, if there will be an increasing number of older athletes as the overall demographic shifts. As pointed out above, some members of the USA team are no it exactly spring chickens.


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## lksseven (Mar 21, 2010)

itbeso said:


> Obviously you do not adhere to the old credo that old age and treachery trumps youth and skill every time.lol


Haha, I love it, Ben! My dad used to say that all the time.


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## lksseven (Mar 21, 2010)

Ten_Zen said:


> I hear a lot of discouraging statements from the top coaches about the age window for top tier achievement. Kinda makes it a self fulfilling prophecy if every experienced coach says you're too old to win. I respectfully disagree.


But he didn't say if you're not 27 or under "you're too old to win". He pointed to exceptions (including his son) while acknowledging that they're, well, exceptions. But his main thrust was that the reality (the overwhelming majority of world class shooters are, in face, in their mid twenties) is best explained by his mentioned combination of physical and financial and general 'life' pressures and currents. 

If he and most other experienced coaches and observers of the sport are wrong, then how to explain the realities that exist to make Jin Hyek OH the "_old man_ of world class target archery" at the ripe old age of 32 ?


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## lksseven (Mar 21, 2010)

Stone Bridge said:


> Where do you draw the line at old? I consider 30 old in endurance sports like running. In sports like archery I think there are such fine motor skills at work as the shot leaves the bow that people over 35 or so cannot compete as a general rule at the very top levels. I mean correcting hold with the arrow still on the string after release. I've seen this in person and on film. It's amazing. As we get older that one ability, as an example, goes away because our fine motor skills erode. Nothing replaces youth if the young person has talent and works hard. I always bet on the young.


I completely agree. Fine motor skills - and the reflex speed needed to exact those skills in the necessary time window! Joe Louis used to say that in his prime it was like his fist arrived at the opponent's jaw in the same instant that he saw the opening. But after his prime, while he could still see all the openings, by the time his fist got there, the opening was long gone.


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## wanemann (Oct 7, 2010)

if your situation isn't totally unrealistic, I believe nothing trumps determination and drive. time can be gained or bought, and if your family supports your dreams you ill find the money and things need to succeed, but takes a ridiculous amount of drive and determination which very few have hence the short list. being grey in the beard is a tougher road to travel for sure, but by no means not possible.

wayne


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## chrstphr (Nov 23, 2005)

wanemann said:


> if your situation isn't totally unrealistic, I believe nothing trumps determination and drive. time can be gained or bought, and if your family supports your dreams you ill find the money and things need to succeed, but takes a ridiculous amount of drive and determination which very few have hence the short list. being grey in the beard is a tougher road to travel for sure, but by no means not possible.
> 
> wayne


this i would completely agree. 


Chris


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## erose (Aug 12, 2014)

Well, I think I learned where all the grey beards/heads go. Just watched the world field championships, and the competitors for barebow was all thirty and above in the medal rounds. So it is barebow were all the old go.


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## Stone Bridge (May 20, 2013)

Does anyone know if a man over the age of 45 has ever won an Olympic archery medal? I know in golf some men over 45 have won Majors. Not many, but it has been done. I was curious about archery. In my mind, the two sports are very close in how they are approached and executed. Both mental games but requiring endurance and very fine motor skills. 

Thanks for any names. If not Olympic competition, any other truly prestigious shooting events drawing Olympic Team members that have been won by men over 45?


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## tigersdad (Jun 13, 2009)

Butch Johnson won Silver in Team competition in London in 2012. Age 56!!!!!!! I met him this Summer at Aggie Shootout... He is my hero.... I am 66... Took three points off a USAT member. I told him I will compete again next summer .


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## TER (Jul 5, 2003)

tigersdad said:


> Butch Johnson won Silver in Team competition in London in 2012. Age 56!!!!!!! I met him this Summer at Aggie Shootout... He is my hero.... I am 66... Took three points off a USAT member. I told him I will compete again next summer .


What tournament?


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## Stone Bridge (May 20, 2013)

...


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## tigersdad (Jun 13, 2009)

The Olympics.......


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## TER (Jul 5, 2003)

Butch was a member of the gold medal U.S. team at the 1996 Olympics and the bronze medal U.S. team in the 2000 Olympics. The 2012 silver medal U.S. team was Jake Kaminski, Brady Ellison and Jacob Wukie.


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## Stone Bridge (May 20, 2013)

Butch in 2000 is impressive but he was a team member attaining a medal in a team event or context. How did he stand up alone against the world's best? He would have been what, 42 in the year 2000? That's still under age 45. Not a kid but not 45 either.


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## TER (Jul 5, 2003)

According to Wikipedia Butch turned 45 on August 30, 2000. So he was just barely 45 at the 2000 Olympics.


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## tigersdad (Jun 13, 2009)

TER, my bad...got carried away there in my admiration for Butch .


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## Stone Bridge (May 20, 2013)

Just making the US team at 45 is still pretty impressive. I was only curious to see how older men did at the final level. One on one. I don't think a man over 45 has a ghost of a chance against a man half his age with equal talent. If I ever see an old guy get the chance I'll be pulling for him because it would be the best story. But I wouldn't bet a dime on his chances against kids. Not at the Olympic level.


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## Mr. Roboto (Jul 13, 2012)

I wonder if there is a significant difference between age/experience when shooting field events versus shooting on the well manicured flat range single target difference. The percentage of the younger shooters shooting the field events is well less than 1/2 than the same group shooting the fixed distance flat range events.

There is a big difference practicing all the time shooting 1 distance and getting good scores as a percentage of the max score versus spending the same level of effort to get the same percentage of the max score on field events.


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## DarkMuppet (Oct 23, 2013)

I don't think age is a limiting factor to the extent that some people think, if you have the dedication and the time it's surprising what you can achieve. 
The best I did when I shot as a junior and in my early 20s was low to mid 1200s. Cut to 2012 (aged 37) after a 15 year break away from the sport, and a fresh approach I managed to shoot 1300. Sadly, aspirations of shooting for GB again faded soon after the realisation that with a young family to support there's no way I really have the time and money. I just shoot for myself and fun now.


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## Stone Bridge (May 20, 2013)

If we took the best 10 male Korean archers today and let them train for stringwalking and field archery only, I bet not one man in the world over 45 would ever win a field shoot again against them. I think we have older winners in field archery simply because the gang is made up of mostly older shooters who are still good shots. Not the best as compared to the young Olympians, but still very good. But put them against the young iron and they'll go away. Just like in golf.


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## lksseven (Mar 21, 2010)

Mr. Roboto said:


> I wonder if there is a significant difference between age/experience when shooting field events versus shooting on the well manicured flat range single target difference. The percentage of the younger shooters shooting the field events is well less than 1/2 than the same group shooting the fixed distance flat range events.
> 
> There is a big difference practicing all the time shooting 1 distance and getting good scores as a percentage of the max score versus spending the same level of effort to get the same percentage of the max score on field events.


How do you marry up your posit with the results of USAA National Field Championship? 
Looks like a lot of young well-manicured lawn shooters here in the top 5 ...
2014 ...
1 ELLISON, Brady AZ 348 33 21 356 22 27 704 55 48
2 WUNDERLE, Vic TX 332 28 15 351 23 22 683 51 37
3 KAMINSKI, Jake FL 330 24 21 348 16 30 678 40 51
4 MCGLYN, Joseph NY 303 12 27 324 11 25 627 23 52
5 BUTEMEYER, Ethan TX 293 19 17 297 7 15 590 26 32

2013 ...
1 ELLISON Brady 369 365 734 104 50 
2 KAMINSKI Jake 377 350 727 107 50 
3 WUNDERLE Vic 363 354 717 95 52 
4 BUTEMEYER Ethan 351 341 692 87 40 
5 MAGERA John 341 339 680 86 34 
6 McGLYN Joe 336 308 644 75 25


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## itbeso (Jul 6, 2005)

Stone Bridge said:


> If we took the best 10 male Korean archers today and let them train for stringwalking and field archery only, I bet not one man in the world over 45 would ever win a field shoot again against them. I think we have older winners in field archery simply because the gang is made up of mostly older shooters who are still good shots. Not the best as compared to the young Olympians, but still very good. But put them against the young iron and they'll go away. Just like in golf.


I'll take that bet if we compare apples to apples,I.E., having the over 45 group being able to train on an everyday basis. Stone, you seem to be the classic devils advocate on everything but there are reasons archers shoot the style they choose and there is no way you can compare the physical and mental attributes of shooting archery compared to the demands that golf has on the human body. You just gave a slap in the face to most of the barebow archers in the world. Of course history is full of your reasonings. Hershel walker was going to tear up MMA because he was a big strong football player, Michael Jordan was going to tear up baseball because he was a superstar basketball player. Ed "too tall jones" was going to tear up boxing because he was a 6'9" 270 lb. star football player, etc., etc.There are always critics who want to devalue what people have achieved, I think you should look in a mirror


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Nah, the really old guys shoot 3-D.  

LOL!!!


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## Mr. Roboto (Jul 13, 2012)

lksseven said:


> How do you marry up your posit with the results of USAA National Field Championship?
> Looks like a lot of young well-manicured lawn shooters here in the top 5 ...
> 2014 ...
> 1 ELLISON, Brady AZ 348 33 21 356 22 27 704 55 48
> ...


But if you remove the guys from both of these tournaments that are not traveling the world representing the US in world championships, how many Oly style shooters from the total list of competitors that competed at the tournament, and compare that to the number of people shooting the different classes. 

The field events tend to draw far fewer Oly style shooters as a percentage for the different styles. When you look at regular target events you see the highest participation of the Oly style shooters.

As a generalized age demographic for the Oly shooters tend to be young men and women. The compound shooters tend to have a good mix of younger, mid, and older aged people. Barebow tends to be more on the mid to older aged people.

When one looks at age versus tournament styles, one tends to sees more of the veteran/experienced shooters shooting the field events versus seeing more of the younger crowd in target event.

The topic was about young versus older shooters, and from my experience I tend to see more older shooters shooting the field events versus the target events. The field events tends to be more challenging than the target events in that more skill sets are needed. So why does the field events attract more of the older shooters? This just could be a coincidence that I have observed in all of the tournaments I have participated in. It may be different in other places. So I asked the question.


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## lksseven (Mar 21, 2010)

Mr. Roboto said:


> But if you remove the guys from both of these tournaments that are not traveling the world representing the US in world championships, how many Oly style shooters from the total list of competitors that competed at the tournament, and compare that to the number of people shooting the different classes.
> 
> The field events tend to draw far fewer Oly style shooters as a percentage for the different styles. When you look at regular target events you see the highest participation of the Oly style shooters.
> 
> ...


The top target guys are overwhelmingly also the top field guys, and they're - almost without exception - under 30. At least in the years I've bothered to go back and research. A friend of mine likes to say "The race doesn't always go to the swiftest runner, but that's the way to bet it." Same thing seems to apply here, and it seems also like common sense - the Olympics are dominated by the young because they're stronger, faster, quicker, more focused. 

My surmise is because the older shooters can't hang with the young flat-bellies in Olympic Target scores - the physical training (and reflexes) required to attain/stay at an elite level is just beyond the capabilities/realities of the vast majority of older shooters. If age is irrelevant, then why are 90plus percent of the world elite shooters under 30, as so well discussed by Vittorio? Age is not a state of mind, it's a state of time and physical realities. You may not go into that good night quietly, but, brother, we're both going.


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## Mr. Roboto (Jul 13, 2012)

Then how do you explain why there are so few oly shooters doing field events. Yeah the top guys do show up, but what about the rest? Could it be that field events are what distinguish the top from the rest?

I am glad that Logan's Run was just fiction.


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## Vittorio (Jul 17, 2003)

Mr. Roboto said:


> ....... The field events tends to be more challenging than the target events in that more skill sets are needed. So why does the field events attract more of the older shooters? This just could be a coincidence that I have observed in all of the tournaments I have participated in. It may be different in other places. So I asked the question.


No difference in Italy at least for Target Vs Field and Recurve Vs Compound Vs Barebow


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## midwayarcherywi (Sep 24, 2006)

Mr. Roboto said:


> Then how do you explain why there are so few oly shooters doing field events. Yeah the top guys do show up, but what about the rest? Could it be that field events are what distinguish the top from the rest?
> 
> I am glad that Logan's Run was just fiction.


I think that is a misinformed statement. Field has suffered for a number of reasons. 1) 3D 2) The time it takes to shoot 3) Lack of facilities 4) Lack of leadership to introduce field to new shooters. 

Our club is fairly typical. We have a beautiful field course and it goes begging for shooters. But, the majority of those in the Chicago area do not even have access to a field course. There are no public field courses. So how does a new shooter learn to appreciate field? Actively promoting this really entertaining type of shooting and competition takes people willing to invite and mentor new shooters. It is something that has not happened in a meaningful way.

It is not the case that really good shooters migrate to field at all. It is more the case that older shooters are the only ones still willing to engage.


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## lksseven (Mar 21, 2010)

Mr. Roboto said:


> Then how do you explain why there are so few oly shooters doing field events. Yeah the top guys do show up, but what about the rest? Could it be that field events are what distinguish the top from the rest?
> 
> I am glad that Logan's Run was just fiction.


In a lot of cases for why there are a lot of young people shooting target, it's as simple as '_because they'd rather shoot Target_'. 

And here's another reason why I think a lot of Target shooters shoot Target - because it's apples to apples. A guy in Timbuktu can shoot a FITA and directly compare his/her score with the top shooters. 

As to why the field comps are more highly represented by an older group of shooters, there are I'm sure a ton of reasons. A couple I can think of: some older shooters have had their fill of the physical and precisional demands of Target (the training volume especially), and start doing more field because it's a change of pace and scenery; because moving to field in many cases gives them a better chance to compete for higher placements; and in some cases, because there's more shade!

And, like Gabe said, other contributing factors exist, too - field events are fewer (fewer venues, fewer competitions); not as visible.

Plus, there isn't enough TIME for most people to do ALL OF IT. By the time the Target crowd puts in the Oly shooting (time and volume) required, they don't have much time or energy left for other venues. So let me turn that question around on you - what percentage of the avid barebow group (that you know of) regularly also shoot Oly Recurve Target?

Logans Run (great movie) was fictional - but don't kid yourself, we've all got buttons that are blinking and turning colors as we go along, and they're visible to potential spouses, employers, inheritance candidates, muggers, ...


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## wfocharlie (Feb 16, 2013)

Well at least we are not competing in women's gymnastics. The Olympic shooting sports still have some of the oldest medalists in the games history so if a person want's a chance (albeit not the best chance) at high level glory then the shooting sports appear to be the best geriatric path. At 55 I know I can not do the same things athletically that I did when I was 25 but archery lets me take up a new sport at an old age where I don't see age having as much of a limiting factor as other sports.


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## High Plains (Feb 29, 2008)

For what it's worth, I'm 110% behind Ben making the Olympic team. I'm 15 years behind him and can only wish that I can be such a great ambassador of our sport than he is.


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## Mr. Roboto (Jul 13, 2012)

lksseven said:


> In a lot of cases for why there are a lot of young people shooting target, it's as simple as '_because they'd rather shoot Target_'.
> 
> And here's another reason why I think a lot of Target shooters shoot Target - because it's apples to apples. A guy in Timbuktu can shoot a FITA and directly compare his/her score with the top shooters.
> 
> ...


Interesting statement about young people would rather shoot target. A question could be "Are younger shooters shooting only target because that is what they would rather shoot, or is it that it is the only thing they are taught and so that is all they know?" At the places I have been here up in the Washington State, new shooters are taught either Oly style or compound. JOAD is really big up here, so the kids are pretty much focused on FITA target events.

This is not meant to be a complaint against JOAD, its a great program, but it does tend to channel young new archers to target style events, and more specifically Olympic style of events. So are young archers only interested in target because that is what they want to shoot, or is it because it is the only thing they taught how to shoot.

Field events require all the same shooting abilities that target events require, plus additional skills in dealing with the terrain and varying lighting conditions. It just requires more skill sets to do it well.

It takes a countless hours to train to shoot at the Olympic level, and if field events were part of the Olympics, people would be spending the same amount of time and effort to shoot at that level. And I am quite sure that those who would be competing at the Olympic field events would say it takes more skill sets to shoot. I really doubt that people that are done with the Olympics move to field shooting because it is easier to win an award.

If you look at track and field events at the Olympics, the people that compete in the individual events send a considerable amount of time training to be the best. The same is so for those who do the Decathlon. The person that wins gold in the 100m will run a faster 100m than the Decathlon gold medal winner, but that Decathlon winner will make that 100m specialist look really bad if the specialist did all of the other events.

I doubt that one's age makes the difference between a good archer and a great archer. If someone starts shooting at the age of 10, and practices 6+ hours a day for 6 days a week for 15 years, they would generally be an outstanding archer at 25. But I would say that if that same person picked up a bow at 30, and was able to practice 6+ hours a day for 15 years they would still be an outstanding archer at 45.

For those who don't know about Logan's Run, it was a utopian society that executed its population when they reached their 30th birthday believing that they reached the peak of their usefulness. It is hard to believe that when someone gets "old" that they cant shoot well. Shooting at the Olympics, one needs to be highly proficient at the point in time of their life, it has nothing to do with age. Though younger people tend to have the time to be able to dedicate themselves to achieve that goal.


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## lksseven (Mar 21, 2010)

No one said that a shooter cannot continue to shoot well as they age. But given the same level of training/experience, the 'peak you' at 65years of age cannot beat the 'peak you' at 25 or 30years of age. A Rick McKinney at 60+years can still beat the pants off of almost all of the Olympic recurve shooters in the country today - but he would have NO CHANCE to beat the Rick McKinney age 32. 

Why aren't Olympic medal winners from the 70's and 80's (think Rick McKinney and company) still making Olympic teams and winning Olympic medals? Why are these aging archers, still avid competitors 25 years past their prime (and still superb archers), unable to match their FITA Target scores from their prime years? My answer is because they're _'past their prime'_ - youth must be served. If age is a zero factor, then how do you explain the dearth of 60something world champions? 

It's not really a surprise that a club named Junior Olympic Archery Development would emphasize the archery discipline that is contested in the Olympics. But your point is well taken as to kids shooting the discipline that is most available/encouraged in a particular locale.


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## Vittorio (Jul 17, 2003)

Just an example:

http://www.ibizadeporte.es/index.ph...uncia-su-retirada-deportiva-del-tiro-con-arco


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## Stone Bridge (May 20, 2013)

Vittorio, most in the USA cannot read that link you provided. I happen to be illiterate in three languages but most of us can only mangle one style of speech - very bad English.

I liked it, however.


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## Vittorio (Jul 17, 2003)

Stone Bridge said:


> Vittorio, most in the USA cannot read that link you provided. I happen to be illiterate in three languages but most of us can only mangle one style of speech - very bad English.
> 
> I liked it, however.


I also have problems reading Spanish language, but fortunately Googe translator can help quite a lot all of us ...


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## Stone Bridge (May 20, 2013)

Vittorio said:


> I also have problems reading Spanish language, but fortunately Googe translator can help quite a lot all of us ...


We are also the land of the lazy. Few are going to translate anything.   I speak and read Cuban Spanish and enough Italian to get my faced slapped in any room filled with women. The Spanish I speak is different enough to cause Google trouble. But I got the balance of the article. Again, thanks for the article.


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## tbrash01 (Oct 7, 2010)

Normally I don't give my 2cents but I will say a few things about old vs young. 

It is very true that a younger athlete has several advantages over an older athlete. The beauty of archery is that age is not a major concern. 

Life gets in the way for sure. I stopped shooting in '96 due to a torn rotator cuff. Started back up in '04 until I broke my back in a bad accident leaving me unable to walk for a year. Then 7 years of therapy to function. I started to shoot again 8 months ago. While I'm not 20 anymore, and yes my back and shoulder remind me daily how old I'm getting, my extreme knowledge of archery has me back to shooting 580+ indoor and 59s at 70m. 

With age comes wisdom and more patients. I know myself better, I know tuning to best suite my setup, and I know exactly what I have to shoot to be a top archer again. Money is very tough and when young you don't require as much. Sponsors need to step up in the US and help. As for equipment, I shot 1300s in the 90s with "old" stuff. So it's a bit more forgiving today. It's still the archer no matter what in the end. 

I could go on forever about this but I will just leave it to this.... I'll stop dreaming at any age when a Gold Medal is in the case. Until then I'm going to fight the pain, get better glasses, forget that I need a hot tub after shooting, and reremember why I love archery in the first place...


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## wanemann (Oct 7, 2010)

tbrash01 said:


> Normally I don't give my 2cents but I will say a few things about old vs young.
> 
> It is very true that a younger athlete has several advantages over an older athlete. The beauty of archery is that age is not a major concern.
> 
> ...


awesome!! well said ^^^


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## Mad Wally (Apr 26, 2013)

Could it be that the young want to prove themselves (Fita) whereas the old prefer to enjoy that what they are doing (field/3D)


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