# Barebow Centershot mind bender....



## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Recurve and compound archers tune their rigs for the most consistent flight, then adjust their sights to the point of impact. Simple.

Barebow archers tune their rigs for acceptable flight, then begin the long process of tuning their rig so their point if impact is where THEY are looking. Not so simple. 

This is why barebow archery is as much an artform as a science, and one reason why there are not that many truly "good" barebow archers. It takes a lot of experience to do this, and you only get that experience by trying a lot of different things.

I can explain and demonstrate tuning to a whole group of compound or recurve archers in about an hour or less, or, I can help ONE barebow archer tune a single rig to THEM in a few hours.


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## JustSomeDude (Jan 27, 2013)

It is definitely a circular process. And most of it doesn't make sense until you can see the results on the target. You can't see the results in the target until your consistency is good enough....rinse and repeat.

It's pretty easy to explain how to 'see' a peep and a pin. But sighting off of an arrow is up to lots of interpretation


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Wait until you go indoors.


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## JustSomeDude (Jan 27, 2013)

Are you referring to the disorientation of shooting indoors?
I would love good lighting, level ground, square target faces and exact distances 


limbwalker said:


> Wait until you go indoors.


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## Mr. Roboto (Jul 13, 2012)

As a barebow shooter, I have found that all these "book" methods of tuning just don't work for me. I understand the principles and reasons why to do certain things, but just can't get them to execute with my barebows.

For example, bareshaft and paper tuning. I can get the "perfect" bullet hole at 10 feet in paper tuning, but arrow flight is absolutely horrible at 20 yards. I can get great bareshaft groupings with the fletch arrows at 20 yards, but cant hit the side of a barn at 50 yards. In the end what seems to work for me is to adjust center shot for 20 yards, and plunger tension for 50 yards. And that is usually good enough of a set up from 5 to 100 yards. I will adjust the nock points up or down based on minimizing the gaps/crawls for the whole range of travel. I find that running shorter arrows really helps with outdoor distances but for indoors, I run really long affows.

I know that there are some people really good at this tuning stuff, but it just frustrates me when I read these "books" and what is says should happen, doesn't happen with a barebow.


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## Rylando (Jul 30, 2016)

The books cause more frustration than breakthrough for barebow. Just play with it all and don't be afraid to change something, just remember how to change it back incase the results are not optimal. I was always told even by other barebow archers not to move centershot, but when my arrows were hitting off to the side and I knew they were the right stiff/weakness I cranked my plunger out like 4 turns and boom gold at 50m.

The books are good for a general understanding of what changes what, but other than that forget it.


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## grantmac (May 31, 2007)

Sometimes (not saying this is you) funky centershot is a grip thing.


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## Demmer3 (Apr 23, 2017)

My field bow setup shoots well 5-50m









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## JustSomeDude (Jan 27, 2013)

THATS why you hit your nose 


Demmer3 said:


> My field bow setup shoots well 5-50m
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Harperman (Sep 3, 2006)

All things considered, Tuning for Barebow is so Individually based that what's works well for one person is likely to be worthless for another person...even down to things such as the Archers drawing hand/finger size, how they hook the string, facial features, etc...I've never had much luck with setting Centershot in the usual way, and typically run very close to arrow right down the middle of the string...I've tried weaker arrow/ stiffer plunger, but stiffer arrow/weaker plunger seems to work best for me...I can't shoot very well, but even the better Compound Archers I know comment on how true my arrows are flying as they miss the Target....LOL....Jim


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## Harperman (Sep 3, 2006)

Demmer3 said:


> My field bow setup shoots well 5-50m
> 
> 
> 
> ...


WOW!!.... Are you sure that set up is working for Ya???....LOL.... Jim


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## rsarns (Sep 23, 2008)

That's so ugly it has to shoot well.


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## itbeso (Jul 6, 2005)

limbwalker said:


> Recurve and compound archers tune their rigs for the most consistent flight, then adjust their sights to the point of impact. Simple.
> 
> Barebow archers tune their rigs for acceptable flight, then begin the long process of tuning their rig so their point if impact is where THEY are looking. Not so simple.
> 
> ...


To me, it is almost a never ending journey. Glad you explained it the way you did. I don't feel so guilty about constant experimenting.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Ben, sometimes I think we shoot barebow BECAUSE we like to tinker. LOL


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## JustSomeDude (Jan 27, 2013)

What I like.....It isn't shooting on a wing and a prayer/burn a hole in the target and the spirits of archers past guides your arrow...

There's math to back it up. But get good enough, and you can forget the math and just shoot if you don't need extreme accuracy .

But I like looking at the ARROW and watching it all the way to the target.

It's kind of a small miracle .


limbwalker said:


> Ben, sometimes I think we shoot barebow BECAUSE we like to tinker. LOL


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## wiatrog (Dec 27, 2014)

Mr. Roboto said:


> In the end what seems to work for me is to adjust center shot for 20 yards, and plunger tension for 50 yards. And that is usually good enough of a set up from 5 to 100 yards.


Thanks for this. Question though: how do you tune center shot & plunger tension? Walk-back?


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## equilibrium (Oct 31, 2006)

Demmer3 said:


> My field bow setup shoots well 5-50m
> 
> 
> 
> ...


*That's because of that Costanza wallet. Remove a couple of free guitar lessons and your froyo punch cards and you can move that arrow over..*


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## Demmer3 (Apr 23, 2017)

equilibrium said:


> *That's because of that Costanza wallet. Remove a couple of free guitar lessons and your froyo punch cards and you can move that arrow over..*


Haha. No froyo. Sub cards 😂

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## rsarns (Sep 23, 2008)

equilibrium said:


> *That's because of that Costanza wallet. Remove a couple of free guitar lessons and your froyo punch cards and you can move that arrow over..*


Lol.


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## lowellhigh79 (Aug 3, 2012)

Aside from stringwalking, I think plunger tension works the same for barebow and oly recurve (adjusting for l/r, windage and walk back). Centershot is where we diverge literally, because we are using the arrow to aim, rather than a sight. However, the further out the arrow is to centershot, the more the arrow goes out of plane with the rest of the bow. This probably won't change where the arrows lands as much as how it affects the torque on your grip/release.


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## j.conner (Nov 12, 2009)

I think there is definitely merit in learning the various tuning methods and tweaks for barebow. The key is understanding how the various parameters effect arrow flight and then using them to your advantage. You then must try it and experiment to see what works best for you and your rig.

I would also note that the bow, arrow, and archer are a dynamic system which have more than one optimal solution. Demmer is showing a great example - I would never think to go that far outside centershot, but I readily understand how the right combination of arrow spine, plunger tension, and release could make that work. Obviously, it's working great for him.


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## Mr. Roboto (Jul 13, 2012)

wiatrog said:


> Thanks for this. Question though: how do you tune center shot & plunger tension? Walk-back?


I usually just do a couple iterations. Set the plunger to mid tension, shoot groups at 20 yards, and move the plunger in/out until the arrows left/rights align with my aiming point. I do this with three finger under with the forefinger touching the nock. My arrows will hit about 26 inches higher than the aim point. Then I shoot 50 yards, and adjust the plunger tension to move the "center" of the group left or right. Then come back to 20, and adjust the center shot again, and then adjust the plunger tension at 50 yards again. I usually only need to do this 3 or 4 times to get it all aligned up. With my group variation, then tends to work for distances from 5 to 100 yards. Note the key words here "my group variation" Right now I can keep all of the arrows scoring on NFAA field targets out to 70 yards. From 50 yards inward, most are inside the 4 ring. My field goals are just to average a 4 for all of the arrows. That's a pretty big spot to work on. Haven't done it yet, but will someday soon.

When shooting using NFAA Trad style, walk back tuning didn't matter since left/rights were within expectations. But string walking is a whole different story. I am struggling with arrows going way right for distances under 20m, but are fine out to 50m. I have noticed that my grip tension plays a huge role for those bunnies, but not as much for the longer distances. I know some people adjust plunger tension for different distances. I am not at that point with my shooting yet. I need to get more consistent. I do know if I back my plunger tension out by 2 turns (Beiter plunger with medium spring) that those way right hits at 5 and 10 meters are centered up. But then with a poor grip tension, I can then suddenly throw them left. So right now I am just keeping one plunger tension and working on keeping from grabbing the grip on the shot. For some reason I tend to grab the bow for the short distances, but can keep a relaxed hand for the long distances. Its a journey

Pete


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## Demmer3 (Apr 23, 2017)

Hey Pete, save yourself a lot of walking. Shoot ten meters and aim at a plumb hanging string or the edge of a level paper. I usually aim at the corner and shoot 15m crawl all the way up to point on. The goal is to smack the edge of the paper all the way. If it does it at ten meters, it will do it at real distance. 

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## granite14 (Nov 10, 2014)

Demmer3 said:


> Hey Pete, save yourself a lot of walking. Shoot ten meters and aim at a plumb hanging string or the edge of a level paper. I usually aim at the corner and shoot 15m crawl all the way up to point on. The goal is to smack the edge of the paper all the way. If it does it at ten meters, it will do it at real distance.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk


My fitbit wants to argue with you..

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## JustSomeDude (Jan 27, 2013)

I call those "Fatbutts". Has a better ring to it.


granite14 said:


> My fitbit wants to argue with you..
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk


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## JustSomeDude (Jan 27, 2013)

Just to clarify....

From 10m, shoot your crawls for 15m and out at a plumb string (holding low enough to stay on the bale). This way you are eliminating aiming discrepancies and just tuning your crawls?



Demmer3 said:


> Hey Pete, save yourself a lot of walking. Shoot ten meters and aim at a plumb hanging string or the edge of a level paper. I usually aim at the corner and shoot 15m crawl all the way up to point on. The goal is to smack the edge of the paper all the way. If it does it at ten meters, it will do it at real distance.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk


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## Demmer3 (Apr 23, 2017)

Ya, the 50m crawl doesn't shoot as high as you think. If I take an indoor target, I am within the paper the whole way if I aim at the corner. If anything, maybe an inch or two above if I shoot a really slow bow. 

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## wiatrog (Dec 27, 2014)

John & Pete: thank you very much. Very helpful!


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## JustSomeDude (Jan 27, 2013)

I must be doing something wrong...I keep cutting the string 



Demmer3 said:


> Ya, the 50m crawl doesn't shoot as high as you think. If I take an indoor target, I am within the paper the whole way if I aim at the corner. If anything, maybe an inch or two above if I shoot a really slow bow.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk


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## Demmer3 (Apr 23, 2017)

JustSomeDude said:


> I must be doing something wrong...I keep cutting the string


Put your knife away, and that will keep your string intact. 😁

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## Mr. Roboto (Jul 13, 2012)

Demmer3 said:


> Hey Pete, save yourself a lot of walking. Shoot ten meters and aim at a plumb hanging string or the edge of a level paper. I usually aim at the corner and shoot 15m crawl all the way up to point on. The goal is to smack the edge of the paper all the way. If it does it at ten meters, it will do it at real distance.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk


I am still learning the subtleties of string walking. Ben told me last year that I should be shooting with larger fletching because mine are too small to really stabilize the arrow for the shorter distances. That could also be part of my problem with problems with arrows going way right for the birdies but fine for everything beyond 20m. But this is something to try this weekend


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## JustSomeDude (Jan 27, 2013)

I go back and forth between 2" vanes and 4" feathers. I don't think I see a consistent difference. 

Shooting the line with your crawls like this is an excellent drill. Really uncovers bad form. I have a lovely Zig Zag pattern....if I used fat climbing rope it wouldn't look so bad


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## Demmer3 (Apr 23, 2017)

JustSomeDude said:


> I go back and forth between 2" vanes and 4" feathers. I don't think I see a consistent difference.
> 
> Shooting the line with your crawls like this is an excellent drill. Really uncovers bad form. I have a lovely Zig Zag pattern....if I used fat climbing rope it wouldn't look so bad


Big zig zag could be spine issue. Your bareshaft mid crawl is good?

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## Demmer3 (Apr 23, 2017)

Mr. Roboto said:


> I am still learning the subtleties of string walking. Ben told me last year that I should be shooting with larger fletching because mine are too small to really stabilize the arrow for the shorter distances. That could also be part of my problem with problems with arrows going way right for the birdies but fine for everything beyond 20m. But this is something to try this weekend


Could be, but most likely not. Definitely a mid size vane in my opinion is a plus. I could get the smaller ones to group better at 50m but like crap compared to the bigger vanes from 30 and in. 

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## JustSomeDude (Jan 27, 2013)

Demmer3 said:


> Big zig zag could be spine issue. Your bareshaft mid crawl is good?
> 
> Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk


It was last time I checked. It's about time for me to check again. I think it's just me. 


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## wiatrog (Dec 27, 2014)

JustSomeDude said:


> ...if I used fat climbing rope it wouldn't look so bad


That would help with your line cutting issue too! =]


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## Mr. Roboto (Jul 13, 2012)

Demmer3 said:


> Could be, but most likely not. Definitely a mid size vane in my opinion is a plus. I could get the smaller ones to group better at 50m but like crap compared to the bigger vanes from 30 and in.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk


Mine are 1-3/4 inch long. I am giving up a lot of points on the short stuff. Been looking at those Dragon Flight vanes. They have a high Q factor (Coefficient of Qwellness) but my Welsh blood keeps me from pulling the trigger.


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## Demmer3 (Apr 23, 2017)

Mr. Roboto said:


> Mine are 1-3/4 inch long. I am giving up a lot of points on the short stuff. Been looking at those Dragon Flight vanes. They have a high Q factor (Coefficient of Qwellness) but my Welsh blood keeps me from pulling the trigger.


I'm shooting high profile 60mm xs wings. I find that size for me to be the perfect medium. Easton diamonds 234s were also a good one for me. 

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## JustSomeDude (Jan 27, 2013)

This another one of those 'circular progress" issues. If you shoot clean enough to bareshaft, it SEEMS there is a point of progress where it doesn't matter. 

Inside 20, I consider hitting the 5 ring of a 5 spot to be 'good' (unknown range). Farther out to 30, I am happy (for now) with a 4. I make note of the margin of error.

I just went out and shot a round in my yard. Alternating 4" feathers and 2" vanes (and the vanes even weigh 10 grn more). I got the vanes for bulk shooting 'risky shots'. 

I'm just not outshooting the fletching yet I guess.

Here's consecutive shots from 26 yards uphill 





Demmer3 said:


> Mr. Roboto said:
> 
> 
> > Mine are 1-3/4 inch long. I am giving up a lot of points on the short stuff. Been looking at those Dragon Flight vanes. They have a high Q factor (Coefficient of Qwellness) but my Welsh blood keeps me from pulling the trigger.
> ...


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## rsarns (Sep 23, 2008)

Demmer3 said:


> Hey Pete, save yourself a lot of walking. Shoot ten meters and aim at a plumb hanging string or the edge of a level paper. I usually aim at the corner and shoot 15m crawl all the way up to point on. The goal is to smack the edge of the paper all the way. If it does it at ten meters, it will do it at real distance.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk


Hmmmm ok if the rain holds off I am testing this today as I got my combo together like we discussed for a 50 M point on without changing my anchor. I do a complete walk back tune even though my BS at 50Ms is in the gold.


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## tgross144 (Dec 18, 2006)

I know you all know about this but I will throw it out there for you. The Barebow Trilogy is a good read about tuning for barebow. It is written for compound but it translates to recurve. Three different tunes by three different champion shooters. Look it up.

Tim


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## tgross144 (Dec 18, 2006)

Hey Pete did you get a new grip yet?

Tim


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## wiatrog (Dec 27, 2014)

tgross144 said:


> The Barebow Trilogy is a good read about tuning for barebow. It is written for compound but it translates to recurve.


It's here if you are curious: http://www.floridaarchery.org/BarebowTrilogy.pdf


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## Braveheart (Apr 1, 2017)

This strand has been extremely helpful! WOW! Shot a couple of weeks ago at 50m and arrows were all over the place! and I mean all over the place. Went out and started experimenting today and adjusted my center shot the way it works best for me and hitting much better. Thank you for the tips


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## Mr. Roboto (Jul 13, 2012)

tgross144 said:


> Hey Pete did you get a new grip yet?
> 
> Tim


I did. Cal hooked me up. Got to love those guys at CD Archery


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## bubbadooz (Mar 21, 2013)

JustSomeDude said:


> So this may have been obvious to many, but I have never seen it explained....I was having some erratic hitting right issues that I have been fighting and I chalked it up to inconsistent anchor/alignment (which it was).
> 
> The farther away from centershot your plunger button is set (right handed, screwing the plunger in and pushing the arrow tip to your left), the more your arrow is pointing to the left. If you THEN align the whole arrow shaft to the target, it is now pointing more to the right. I had to get my head around a similar dyslexic nightmare in regards to elevated rests and point on (raising the arrow above the shelf decreases point on distance).
> 
> Anyway...I'm pretty sure I am getting it...I shot better today anyway.


Im just gettimg into shooting barebow and i have arrows that should be shooting stiff but keep going to the right. I shoot rh. My centreshot is starting to look like the pic Demmer posted. I dont know what to do or how to fix this. For now i just set the plunger back to my starting point. Any pointers? 

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## Demmer3 (Apr 23, 2017)

bubbadooz said:


> Im just gettimg into shooting barebow and i have arrows that should be shooting stiff but keep going to the right. I shoot rh. My centreshot is starting to look like the pic Demmer posted. I dont know what to do or how to fix this. For now i just set the plunger back to my starting point. Any pointers?
> 
> Sent from my SM-G950W using Tapatalk


Yeah, if they are flying good and straight, who cares. Run it how you need to. Lol. If I had to run it like I'm "supposed to", I couldn't shoot a good arrow. No text book stuff for everyone. Curious, what's your poundage, arrow, arrow length, arrow spine, and point weight

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## bubbadooz (Mar 21, 2013)

Demmer3 said:


> Yeah, if they are flying good and straight, who cares. Run it how you need to. Lol. If I had to run it like I'm "supposed to", I couldn't shoot a good arrow. No text book stuff for everyone. Curious, what's your poundage, arrow, arrow length, arrow spine, and point weight
> 
> Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk


Ok thanks man i appreciate your input. Gives me the confidence to setup how i need to without feeling like im doing something wrong. Shooting 42lbs, running a beman centreshot 29.75 arrow length 500 spine with 75 grain point and about 360 grain total arrow weight...

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## Demmer3 (Apr 23, 2017)

bubbadooz said:


> Ok thanks man i appreciate your input. Gives me the confidence to setup how i need to without feeling like im doing something wrong. Shooting 42lbs, running a beman centreshot 29.75 arrow length 500 spine with 75 grain point and about 360 grain total arrow weight...
> 
> Sent from my SM-G950W using Tapatalk


My current setup is 29.5" total from nock groove to end of the point. I'm running 600 spine with 100gr points and about 1.75" shank on the point. Best overall tune I've ever had. I'm between 43-44#

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## bubbadooz (Mar 21, 2013)

Demmer3 said:


> My current setup is 29.5" total from nock groove to end of the point. I'm running 600 spine with 100gr points and about 1.75" shank on the point. Best overall tune I've ever had. I'm between 43-44#
> 
> Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk


Is this arrow setup for 3d? 

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## Demmer3 (Apr 23, 2017)

bubbadooz said:


> Is this arrow setup for 3d?
> 
> Sent from my SM-G950W using Tapatalk


Field for the 50m target. I will be shooting it for 3d as well

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## bubbadooz (Mar 21, 2013)

Demmer3 said:


> Field for the 50m target. I will be shooting it for 3d as well
> 
> Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk


Right on, you have any arrow recommendations for a newbie. Bought my first barebow a couple weeks ago and want to get some 3d arrows to optimize my setup. 

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## j.conner (Nov 12, 2009)

bubbadooz said:


> Ok thanks man i appreciate your input. Gives me the confidence to setup how i need to without feeling like im doing something wrong. Shooting 42lbs, running a beman centreshot 29.75 arrow length 500 spine with 75 grain point and about 360 grain total arrow weight...
> 
> Sent from my SM-G950W using Tapatalk


Just for reference, I am shooting .500 spine at 28" with a 125gr point at 40#. I think there are several potential tunes for a given bow and archer, and alot depends on the specifics of your release. I also think you have to go with what is readily available and in a price range that is reasonable to you. The great thing about a plunger is that it gives you alot of latitude to find a good tune.


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## Demmer3 (Apr 23, 2017)

bubbadooz said:


> Right on, you have any arrow recommendations for a newbie. Bought my first barebow a couple weeks ago and want to get some 3d arrows to optimize my setup.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G950W using Tapatalk


Little bit of a loaded question. A lot depends on your goal. Shorter faster arrows for stringwalking, shorter heavier points for more focused, but still stringwalking, longer arrows for a somewhat moderate speed for no walking, or a faster long arrow for no walking? Lots of options. Haha 

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## JustSomeDude (Jan 27, 2013)

I've been settling to a similar setup to Demmers. 29.5" Entrada arrows with 85grn Tophat points. Low 40#'s draw weight. Total arrow weight is about 280grn.


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## JustSomeDude (Jan 27, 2013)

Oh yeah.... .600 spine


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## bubbadooz (Mar 21, 2013)

Demmer3 said:


> Little bit of a loaded question. A lot depends on your goal. Shorter faster arrows for stringwalking, shorter heavier points for more focused, but still stringwalking, longer arrows for a somewhat moderate speed for no walking, or a faster long arrow for no walking? Lots of options. Haha
> 
> Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk


My goal is to have a setup that is going to be the most forgiving of all my flaws lol. In southern Ontario where i shoot its mostly outdoor 3d for me string walking at a max distance of 30 yards. I dont know of many people that shoot the same in my area other than Jon L. I havent shot enough with him to get to pick his brain alot. 

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## bubbadooz (Mar 21, 2013)

j.conner said:


> Just for reference, I am shooting .500 spine at 28" with a 125gr point at 40#. I think there are several potential tunes for a given bow and archer, and alot depends on the specifics of your release. I also think you have to go with what is readily available and in a price range that is reasonable to you. The great thing about a plunger is that it gives you alot of latitude to find a good tune.


That was my same thinking with the plunger. I thought i should be able to tune any arrow within reason. When i started to push centreshot out a bunch i was worried it was wrong and did some quick research and read some things telling me where i "should be" . Like Demmer says as long as it works for me who cares i suppose. I like that "breaking down the stigmas" mindset he has... thank you for your imput as well ill keep messing with my setup. I should be able to get it 

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## JustSomeDude (Jan 27, 2013)

Bubba,
I recently tested my 6.7gpp arrows against my 8.5gpp. From 5-20 yards they were almost identical (just tested with a fixed crawl). 

At 25 yards, the heavier arrows will tend to be several inches lower. At 30, it gets extreme. If your course is set up a little loose and the 30 is REALLY 32....even more.

Anyway, the Entrada setup is plenty stable for me. And fast enough to minimize my elevation errors from 22-32 yards


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