# Black Swan Archery?



## dougedwards (Sep 5, 2010)

Anyone ever heard of this company that produces longbows, recurves and hybrids that advertise to shoot a 540 gr arrow @ *220 fps* out of a 60# bow and 30 in draw!!

I will say that they sure are ugly but wow.....yeah it's a 30 draw but good grief. That's performance!!

http://www.blackswanarchery.com/home.html

Doug


----------



## LBR (Jan 1, 2004)

Don't believe everything you read. I have a sub-$1,000 stick of carbon-backed firewood in my shop that a friend gave me to display, that delaminated and broke the first time he pulled it back. He draws maybe 28" on a good day. The warranty was not honored. This bow was a replacement for a totallly different bow my friend accepted in desparation after getting the run-around on the bow he originally ordered, a longbow (the one that broke was a recurve). The longbow came with a twisted limb. The twist was blamed on the string...that he sent with the bow. He wouldn't begin to honor his original warranty of refund or replacement, no questions asked, if there was anything the buyer wasn't happy with.

Some of them are decent shooters, but if you have a problem you are very liable to be left holding the bag.


----------



## ArcherFletch (Jul 8, 2012)

That sounds horrible, thanks for the warning! The performance sounds good but yeah they are kinda ugly (the "wave" bow looks like it can't be very efficient right?)


----------



## benofthehood (May 18, 2011)

I'd do a search on them ... lots of favourable reviews and many claims ... they must really zing an arrow out there ... :shade:

David Alford of the STAR method talks of Black Swan often ... the bowyer knew Bruce Lee , was Olympic alternate in archery , cycling and from memory also weightlifting, would beat Howard Hill etc etc ... unfortunately , I can't seem to find any actual record of these athletic achievements ...... :embara:

But if ya dig a little deeper there are also some posting too many somewhat unflattering reviews of the bows dependability and customer service


----------



## Beendare (Jan 31, 2006)

My buddy had one of those original Carbons break about 5 years ago....and he got a run around for a year until I think he just forgot about it

if I was ordering a bow with carbon there are a few others i would use. Not many small guys can beat the limbs for ILF bows from outfits like Win&Win....Border comes to mind though.


----------



## dougedwards (Sep 5, 2010)

Well.....I don't know about all of the historic stuff but I think what I am getting here is that the limbs, although speedy, are suspect to twisting and other failures due to their carbon make up and the manufacturer doesn't stand behind them? Do I have that right?

I did see classified add where a pair of the Black Swan limbs listed for $650. Ouch!! That could get very expensive.

Doug


----------



## UrbanDeerSlayer (Feb 10, 2012)

For what its worth I hear the BF Extreme limbs from TradTech/ Lancaster are bomb proof and you can pick up a used set real reasonable. Plus they got great service


----------



## benofthehood (May 18, 2011)

Maybe off topic ... but yeah the BF Extreme's are just about as good as it gets .


----------



## Bigjono (Apr 21, 2009)

It's a love hate hate thing with those bows. I don't like anything about them and I hear quality is suspect but some people still use them.


----------



## grantmac (May 31, 2007)

If I wanted a fast carbon longbow I wouldn't even think about a Black Swan.

I'd be calling a company that starts with B and ends with order


----------



## benofthehood (May 18, 2011)

Grant ... 

"backorder" ?


----------



## JParanee (Oct 13, 2009)

My buddy Ray who shoots a few different bows including border just got a hybrid and likes it 










I shot it and for a hybrid I was impressed but not near enough that I would give up my BF's or Hex's


----------



## Bigjono (Apr 21, 2009)

grantmac said:


> If I wanted a fast carbon longbow I wouldn't even think about a Black Swan.
> 
> I'd be calling a company that starts with B and ends with order


Each to their own I guess, Fox or Blackbrook would be way ahead for me


----------



## David Alford (Dec 28, 2012)

benofthehood said:


> I'd do a search on them ... lots of  favourable reviews and many claims ... they must really zing an arrow out there ... :shade:
> 
> David Alford of the STAR method talks of Black Swan often ... the bowyer knew Bruce Lee , was Olympic alternate in archery , cycling and from memory also weightlifting, would beat Howard Hill etc etc ... unfortunately , I can't seem to find any actual record of these athletic achievements ...... :embara:
> 
> But if ya dig a little deeper there are also some posting too many somewhat unflattering reviews of the bows dependability and customer service


Just came upon this thread and while it has been awhile I wanted to correct a few things, for the record. All of those tournament and athletic "stories" are true. It would be hard for you to find via an internet search verification as Arvid's tournament achievements as they were quite a long time ago. Arvid was one of the very best tournament archers ever and he did set quite a few records and he was an alternate to the Olympics. He set some very high scores including back to back perfect 300 rounds (and did so using a glove vs. a tab!).

Arvid is still a great shot and he's been very complimentary of the STAR Method. He knows it works and he acknowledges it is largely new. He's seen just about everything in archery, he lived the life of a bowyer and competitive archer for over a half century. He's a real wizard and a nice man so it is unfortunate the critics here don't know just how nice he is.

As far as his carbon limbs vs. others, keep in mind not all carbon is the same. Black Swan bows use a special carbon matrix and his bows are very fast indeed. Norb Mullaney said they were the fastest he every tested and the new models are capable of incredible speeds with light arrows (which they shoot very well). No one here would believe how fast...keep in mind he started working on limb performance many decades ago using the best equipment at Hewlett Packard. He also helped Tom Jennings develop his bows. And he's helped some big name trad. bowyers as well.

Much of this and more has been written up in an interview I just finished, but it may be awhile before it's published due to the normal time lag (it is being submitted for publication).

With regard to critics, I've heard the other side of the story and it seems Arvid did his best to make things right. There will always be some people you can't make happy. I've seen this with other well respected bowyers. You can't make everyone happy, it's as simple as that. I do think Black Swan bows are a unique and high quality product and that Arvid is an honest and generous person.


----------



## David Alford (Dec 28, 2012)

grantmac, I do like the quote, "Archery is a process that ends with a result. Once you start to focus on the result (where the shot goes, how big the group is, what your score is, what place you are in) then you loose the capacity to focus on the process."

Are you the author? Very well said.


----------



## Nitroboy (Jan 15, 2006)

I know a guy that goes by Rip Fletchings on youtube that shoots for Arvid, he loves all the Black Swan bows he has, I've shot one and it was no different than anything else I've shot, everything has it's good and bad, only thing I don't like about them is they are ugly lol but they shoot very well and he has never had any issues with quality. He used to live here in AR but has since moved to the Dakotas but he has won two back to back ASA Arkansas State championship and Shooter of the Year shooting a Black Swan longbow


----------



## LBR (Jan 1, 2004)

> With regard to critics, I've heard the other side of the story and it seems Arvid did his best to make things right.


I still have the bow that broke the first time it was pulled to 28"--it's in my shop--Arvid never made good on it. I can re-hash the story and post pics if you want.

I don't know Arvid personally. I have no dog in this fight, other than the friend I posted about took a beating--he's got close to $1,000 in kindling.


It's not that difficult to look up who's participated in the Olympics over the years, or world records either. I've chased a few claims down, and I'm far from a computer whiz.


----------



## grantmac (May 31, 2007)

David Alford said:


> grantmac, I do like the quote, "Archery is a process that ends with a result. Once you start to focus on the result (where the shot goes, how big the group is, what your score is, what place you are in) then you loose the capacity to focus on the process."
> 
> Are you the author? Very well said.


Yes that quote is all me.


----------



## vabowdog (Dec 13, 2007)

benofthehood said:


> Grant ...
> 
> "backorder" ?



Now that's funny....I don't care who you are!!!


----------



## vabowdog (Dec 13, 2007)

Nitro, I met Rip Fletching or whatever his real name is in Texas and he was talking all Bout his Black Swan bows...he said his would shoot 300 FPS and more...I asked him how he shot and he said not good....he didn't win ASA Shooter of the year because I did...I don't think he's ever won an ASA shooter of the year but maybe he has...I will check and let ya know.

Dewayne Martin


----------



## LBR (Jan 1, 2004)

> he said his would shoot 300 FPS and more...


Whaattttt???????


----------



## Nitroboy (Jan 15, 2006)

vabowdog said:


> Nitro, I met Rip Fletching or whatever his real name is in Texas and he was talking all Bout his Black Swan bows...he said his would shoot 300 FPS and more...I asked him how he shot and he said not good....he didn't win ASA Shooter of the year because I did...I don't think he's ever won an ASA shooter of the year but maybe he has...I will check and let ya know.
> 
> Dewayne Martin


Dewayne you misread my post, I said ASA Arkansas state and SOY, I did NOT say a Pro/Am, I beat him in Texas with my Whip longbow, he's a good guy but kinda different. Me and you talked a few minutes before the shoot started, I got to shoot with Tiger Garoby that weekend, now that boy can shoot and he is quiet, well mannered and doesn't brag


----------



## Nitroboy (Jan 15, 2006)

LBR said:


> Whaattttt???????


Just to clarify alittle he told me the same thing but the bow was 70#@ his draw which is like 31.5 or 32" and he was shooting a lightweight arrow, he also never told how many times he shot it and if it held up or not.


----------



## Bender (Dec 6, 2006)

I guess the article on Arvid will see publication about the same time as the forth coming book about the STAR method?


----------



## vabowdog (Dec 13, 2007)

Nitro, my bad I wasn't aware that Arkansas had a ASA SOY.

Yes I remember this guy very well we spoke for a few minutes after the shoot and that's when he told me his bow was over 300 fps...


Dewayne


----------



## Ringtail (Jul 18, 2007)

believe he is shooting a 5 gpi arrow at 70# and 30in AMO....


----------



## Nitroboy (Jan 15, 2006)

vabowdog said:


> Nitro, my bad I wasn't aware that Arkansas had a ASA SOY.
> 
> Yes I remember this guy very well we spoke for a few minutes after the shoot and that's when he told me his bow was over 300 fps...
> 
> ...


No big deal, a lot of people don't know Arkansas has any kind of ASA stuff going on, but yeah he told me the same thing back first of the year we shot a ASA qualifier together, I just don't remember all the specs he said it was except 70# for sure and I know he's a tall guy with a long draw, I'd like to see it in person myself that's the only way I would believe it


----------



## Jim Casto Jr (Aug 20, 2002)

Maybe the guy was just repeating the claim on the front page of the Black Swann website? It touts IBO 300 fps.


----------



## vabowdog (Dec 13, 2007)

I really questioned him hard about the speed and could barely contain my laughter. But he swore to it and was ready to get bent out of shape so I pushed just a little harder (just kiddin). I packed my stuff up and got off stage.

Dewayne Martin


----------



## mtn3531 (Mar 6, 2009)

I shot one of the Black Swans at the London ASA this year. It was fast, that's for sure. The bow inspires a love/hate kind of reaction. Not the most pleasant aesthetically but it did sling an arrow. I'll stick with my Titan III and my Samick limbs I have in all weights and constructions.


----------



## LBR (Jan 1, 2004)

Still not as good as the string causing the limb to twist, but pretty close.


----------



## David Alford (Dec 28, 2012)

lbr why don't you send your side of the story to me. [email protected]


----------



## graysquirrel (Jan 3, 2010)

Careful David, they may hear sides you dont want to hear,,,, theres a few threads on another forum that shed a not so good light on a certain shooting method, its hotair promoter, and the shilling for a bagfull of promises


----------



## catfish223 (May 16, 2014)

Interesting thread! I did a lot of research online about Black Swan archery, spoke with the owner, and wound up purchasing one of his bows a few months ago. It's a wicked little thing, but this 300 fps business seems a bit over the top. Sure, with a dangerously low-mass arrow, you could shoot some ridiculously high fps. But for my 51# bow, the manufacturer said that 350 gsm is as light as I should be shooting through it (6.9 gr/lb). I'm pushing a 400 gr arrow consistently at 225 fps with my amateur finger release technique, so delivering 44+ ft-lbs. I need a .340 spine, so I would have a hard time putting together 350 grain arrow that flies right, even if I wanted to do that. Yes, it could probably fling a straw at 300 fps, but it would fly pretty poorly. I have found that arrows doing a lot of gyrating out of the bow are hard for my chromo to get a fix on; I wonder how you'd get a good reading on something like that. I figure I'd see 235 fps or so with a 350 grain arrow, from my Black Swan. Their published energy graph shows 50# bow on the test rig at around 48 ft-lbs delivered, so I'm underperforming a bit at 44.5 ft-lbs, but I'm in the general vicinity. If I had 7 more fps I'd be putting out 48 ft-lbs. I tend to believe his energy-speed-mass plots are spot-on. http://www.blackswanarchery.com/images/charts01.jpg
Danged finger release… ;-) 


My other most-shot bow is a 1966 American Archery Cheetah Supreme, 45#, a lovely wooden thing that sends 345 grain arrows at about 205 fps, or about 33 ft-lbs. So with only 13% more draw weight, the Black Swan is putting about 38% more energy into the arrow - so that's good. I didn't know whether to be more impressed with the speed from my nearly 50-year old wooden bow, or the efficiency of my Black Swan. I guess even back in 1966 they had a pretty good idea how to make a bow work. 

I had dreams of 250 fps initially from the Swan, but with the heavier arrows I'm shooting now and finger release, it's not in the cards for me. BUT… I have no doubt that with a 250 grain arrow (5 gr/lb as in IBO), and a mechanical release, it could shoot very close to 300 fps. If you wanted to win a bet, you'd have a good crack at it. Dunno if it's worth shocking a spendy bow like that to prove a point, but I think you could do it. 

The Black Swan is a very nice piece of work. A bit more sensitive to setup than the old Cheetah, though. I love the look of wooden bows, but I also am coming to really enjoy the new bow a great deal. I'm mostly a backyard target shooter, and wanted to try something different - this definitely fits the bill. I was hoping to pick up more than 20 fps vs a piece of wood and fiberglass from 1966, but I hadn't thought about needing stiffer/ heavier arrows-- although with the extra energy it has plenty of punch for hunting (maybe next season!). Arvid was extremely helpful and patient with my 1001 questions, even when I was just some guy calling him out of the blue sky and picking his brain about composite limbs. So far I'm extremely pleased with both the bow, and the customer service from Black Swan.


----------



## catfish223 (May 16, 2014)

One more thing… I wanted to quiet my string down a bit, so last week I put a couple of those rubber mossy oak silencers on it. They really deadened the string noise, although the bow shot noticeably differently. Just for laughs, I shot it thru the chromo again today. Was struggling to get over 205 fps! I weighed another set of silencers that were unmounted: 115 grains! 
Holy cow. I lost 20 fps from the weight of the silencers- guess I put them too far towards the middle. My bow is pretty zippy on a bare string, but weigh the string down and it goes out the window. I have a beaver tail silencer that isn't a great muffler, all together it weighs 12 grains. Had not even thought about the mass of the silencers before. That was an eye opener. 
I suppose a 60 or 70lb bow would shrug off the extra mass better than my 51#. So for the purposes of minimum arrow mass - you could take the mass of string silencers into effect, right? If they had some substantial weight to them (100+ gr)?


----------



## David Alford (Dec 28, 2012)

"I guess the article on Arvid will see publication about the same time as the forth coming book about the STAR method?" The interview is in the current issue of Traditional Bowhunter Magazine. 

As far as Arvid's bows, part of the discrepency is that some of the bows had the newer carbon. There are several chrono tests of Black Swan on You Tube, all one has to do is go there and search Black Swan bows. There are several from different people so that should eliminate some bias, just keep in mind some of these are with string silencers and are not shot from shooting machines or a mechanical release so right there you loose a lot of speed. There is even one of Arvid using a glove and it's still fast. Most of the testers say it is the fastest bow they've ever tested.

As far as some of the criticisms of Arvid's honesty, I suggest you actually call the Arvid and talk to him! It seems unfair to be ranting about someone's else's bow problem not even your own bow plus the fact you have never even picked up the phone to discuss it with the man. Many other notable bowyers have had customers that cannot be satisfied, there are always two sides to the story.


----------

