# primitive season proposal



## cynic

Just to clear things up before we get started, in the other thread when I talked of traditional bows that the Indians used it was said *that would be primitive* not Traditional. So are we talking about primitive as an ERA or primitive as in original archery equip..(Recurve long bow).?


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## Free Range

In the Traditional circles, or non-wheel bow circles, Traditional pretty much means no wheels, and primitive means no modern materials, i.e. fiberglass, and synthetic glues.


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## Free Range

On a purely selfish level I kind of like the idea. 
The benefits
1)	less crowding
2)	should be easier to get permission to hunt private land
3)	should bring back some of the respect bowhunters have lost over the years
4)	wouldn’t have to worry about x-bow users saying it’s the same
5)	Would provide incentive for others to take up Traditional bow hunting and hopefully they would see why we love it so much. 
6)	Would weed out most of the lazy slob hunters

The draw backs	
1)	Shorter season for others, assuming we could hunt during the rest of bow season.
2)	Would serve to even more divide bowhunters

Like I said before, about the only way I think it would be a good idea is if, it was an added season, not taken out of the bow season as it exist now.


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## Marvin

I would not mind having 2-3 weeks to be able to chase them with the self bows. I would like to be able to get one in velvet too.


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## thesource

I think that you could make a case that truly primitive hunters deserve first crack at the deer....say the first week. It needs to be in stone, though - wood, iron, and string only - in order to justify it.


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## Jim C

I having an archery season in which all archery equipment that can ethically take the game be allowed. Line drawing for the sake of excluding is stupid IMHO-what is primitive-no dacron strings? no store bought feathers? I can see the lawsuits now


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## thesource

Lawsuits?

Enlighten us, please.


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## Marvin

Jim C said:


> I having an archery season in which all archery equipment that can ethically take the game be allowed. Line drawing for the sake of excluding is stupid IMHO-what is primitive-no dacron strings? no store bought feathers? I can see the lawsuits now


store bought feathers are still feathers....I thought you knew that:tongue:


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## Marvin

thesource said:


> Lawsuits?
> 
> Enlighten us, please.


now I am curious....Yeah what lawsuits. were talking about a season here just like we have now. Whats the hang up now?


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## Jim C

Marvin said:


> store bought feathers are still feathers....I thought you knew that:tongue:



just trying to show how idiotic defining "primitive" could be


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## Marvin

Jim C said:


> just trying to show how idiotic defining "primitive" could be


I do not get it sorry....


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## thesource

I would have thought you'd be all for this Jim. What's the problem? We're even talking about stick bows and wood and iron crossbows in the _same_ season.

What's the beef - you can't shoot a longbow?


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## Jim C

thesource said:


> I would have thought you'd be all for this Jim. What's the problem? We're even talking about stick bows and wood and iron crossbows in the _same_ season.
> 
> What's the beef - you can't shoot a longbow?


care to put some money on that idea? you probably don't even know what a york round is.

I just don't see much point for archery apartheid. all archery hunters should be uniting rather than dealing with dividing everyone up into little subsections with various groups demanding more rights and more days than others


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## Marvin

Jim C said:


> care to put some money on that idea? you probably don't even know what a york round is.
> 
> I just don't see much point for archery apartheid. all archery hunters should be uniting rather than dealing with dividing everyone up into little subsections with various groups demanding more rights and more days than others


Jim thsi is about giving a noticeably harder hunting method first crack. If we want to get a togther lets the guns in october ( well now september now ) . You can't say you want in without letting the others in.


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## Jim C

Marvin said:


> Jim thsi is about giving a noticeably harder hunting method first crack. If we want to get a togther lets the guns in october ( well now september now ) . You can't say you want in without letting the others in.



Some would argue its not harder-I know some trad guys who think they have an advantage with a longbow

I just don't see the need to keep dividing archers up

end of story from my perspective


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## Marvin

Jim C said:


> Some would argue its not harder-I know some trad guys who think they have an advantage with a longbow
> 
> I just don't see the need to keep dividing archers up
> 
> end of story from my perspective


 What about the lawsuits?? NFAA and IBO all divide up archers what the difference.


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## thesource

Jim C said:


> Some would argue its not harder-I know some trad guys who think they have an advantage with a longbow



Oh puhleeze.

You've spent the better part of 16,000 posts arguing that compounds are SO much easier to shoot than your olympic recurves. Now you want us to bellieve that longbows have an advantage - whatever


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## Jim C

thesource said:


> Oh puhleeze.
> 
> You've spent the better part of 16,000 posts arguing that compounds are SO much easier to shoot than your olympic recurves. Now you want us to bellieve that longbows have an advantage - whatever



you don't read any better than you argue-I said some say they are an advantage-

you really need to work on thinking more and feeling less source. its all emotion with you


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## Jim C

Marvin said:


> What about the lawsuits?? NFAA and IBO all divide up archers what the difference.



nice try-but the IBO doesn't tell NFAA guys they can't have their tournaments and the NFAA doesn't tell the IBO that their game really isn't archery


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## Marvin

Jim C said:


> nice try-but the IBO doesn't tell NFAA guys they can't have their tournaments and the NFAA doesn't tell the IBO that their game really isn't archery


No BUT they tell them where they can and have to shoot. Sound familiar?:tongue:


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## oldbhtrnewequip

*Jim C.*

*You said
I having an archery season in which all archery equipment that can ethically take the game be allowed. *

I assume you mean "I _think _having an archery..."
I think that makes sense too. But I'm not the one making the rules. I can only suggest. You may recall that I originally recommended and asked for....a unified season. 

As long as you have a minority of people, that want to do something in a certain way because they call it 'sport', as they perceive it, then you can choose to acknowledge that they are doing something special and set aside time for them to do their thing. IF it is sport and if we are competing with one another in this sport, then equipment use has to be agreed upon. Or not.

Check this out
http://www.pope-young.org/photosweek.asp

Doesn't look much to me like they all agreed on equipment use.
16 weeks of high tech. 2 weeks of low tech.

I could be slightly wrong because some of the pictures are small, but I'm definitely in the ballpark.

The whole perception of sport and competition is so hazy and cloudy because people mix up these feelings about the animals that we pursue, as a sport, with the competition between us hunters, as a sport. I agree that we do harm to one another as hunters when we suggest that other hunters are engaged in unethical behavior because of the equipment that they use. Lazy slobs. etc. 

I'm not the one that is doing that. I'm looking for inclusivity, on equal terms of those who mandate exclusivity.

So how do you unify where all bowhunters, be they recurve, long, compound, or cross bows, 'compete' on the same terms? The only way I've been able to come up with something is to agree upon a point in time based on technology.
Do you have a better idea? I'm all ears.

You have to agree on equipment limitations, if you want to be fair, between people anyway. By going to a 'primitive' season, we, theoretcially put all people on the same competitive level.

I guess the two guys hunting traditional in that photo spread were more fair to the other hunters, by self handicapping? They can say that they aren't competing with one another. I question that. Do golfers 'compete' with one another when they're talking to each other about their handicap at the 19th hole and how they did for the day? I think yes.

If we're celebrating the animals, and its not about recognition (isn't that a big part of competitive sports?),then I wonder why we don't just have pictures of the animals with the bows (since the equipment is so important) in front of them while the hunter takes the picture. Oops...almost forgot...can't forget the score.

No need to sugarcoat it. Some use the context of sport, from a human to human competitive perspective, as a means to justify or rationalize their perspective of keeping out some types of equipment. Such as >86% let off bows. That is their line in the sand. 

There are those who want exclusive rights.

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=exclusivity

The way I see it, we already have folks that want to continue this exclusivity, by saying we can't have a unified season. There are folks that think that the equipment they use separates them from the masses. They want filters. They want access to resources and they want to use 'equipment use' as the differentiator. I'm saying let's use equipment use as a unifier, during some season, so that we can all compete on the same level. So let's get on with it.

Because of my disability, I can no longer compete with these guys head to head. They are the ones making the rules. They dont' allow me to compete head to head. Oh...I get a 'by' because I 'have to' use this equipment. 
Its not the same.

We go back and forth in the statements and the thought processes here on who is creating divisiveness. Its pretty apparent to me....although I'm sure that others see it differently. 

http://thesaurus.reference.com/search?r=2&q=exclusive

and there is clearly no question that the folks who don't want crossbows in bowseason are the ones being divisive, amongst bowhunters who can no longer use what they've been using for forever and a day. 

*You said
Line drawing for the sake of excluding is stupid IMHO-what is primitive-no dacron strings? no store bought feathers? *

I agree. But line drawing for the sake of including is not stupid. 

Let's draw the line so that you don't have to be 'rich' to buy the equipment to play in the same sandbox. Let people buy the equipment as they do today, vs. forcing everyone to make their own equipment.

You certainly know the history as well. Are you up for creating the proposal?


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## Jim C

we aren't competing against one another-this is not a FITA or a 3D shoot. There are reasons why archery has a long season and guns do not-its predicted harvest rates and the feeling that deer after gun season are far spookier

it has nothing to do with competition

I am against a primitive set aside -all archery same season is what I support


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## thesource

If you want every weapon in the same season, then make everything the same. Set a speed limit on crossbows and compounds. Set a minimum arrow weight limit. Do not allow scopes or red dot sights.

You can't even start until you force some sort of parity between equipment.

If you are going to be truely fair, you would have to scale the speeds and arrow weights all the way back to traditional equipment levels.

What's that? Not interested? I didn't think so.

The truth is that you all do not just feel that everything belongs in one season. You want YOUR equipment to be the most advantaged in the season.


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## Jim C

thesource said:


> If you want every weapon in the same season, then make everything the same. Set a speed limit on crossbows and compounds. Set a minimum arrow weight limit. Do not allow scopes or red dot sights.
> 
> You can't even start until you force some sort of parity between equipment.
> 
> If you are going to be truely fair, you would have to scale the speeds and arrow weights all the way back to traditional equipment levels.
> 
> What's that? Not interested? I didn't think so.
> 
> The truth is that you all do not just feel that everything belongs in one season. You want YOUR equipment to be the most advantaged in the season.



too stupid for words. Who is it unfair to Source? your ego? your sense of self worth. Did you know that most top 3D pros don't shoot the fastest bow and I, probably the most experienced xbow guy on this board, use the slowest hunting bow excalibur sells?


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## thesource

I don't really care what you spot whackers do or don't do, to be honest.

I see you won't go on the record for a speed limit. Big surprise.


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## Jim C

thesource said:


> I don't really care what you spot whackers do or don't do, to be honest.
> 
> I see you won't go on the record for a speed limit. Big surprise.


why source? if increases in speed lead to a problematic increase in the harvest then we will talk--You are clearly a control freak-you want to impose limits even if there is no proof they are needed

I have no use for your fascist rantings.


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## thesource

I actually thought, for some reason, that oldbhtrnewequip was sincere when he started this thread.

Now its clear that its another bait an switch technique to somehow ramrod stringguns into bowseason.


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## Jim C

thesource said:


> I actually thought, for some reason, that oldbhtrnewequip was sincere when he started this thread.
> 
> Now its clear that its another bait an switch technique to somehow ramrod stringguns into bowseason.



I see your fixation with stringguns-you can't admit they are bows so you figure calling the stringguns is somehow going to make your comments more persuasive.

I was honest about my answer
the only dishonesty appears to be on your part


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## oldbhtrnewequip

*source*



thesource said:


> I actually thought, for some reason, that oldbhtrnewequip was sincere when he started this thread.
> 
> Now its clear that its another bait an switch technique to somehow ramrod stringguns into bowseason.


The ones that don't want crossbows in bow season, because of fairness, are excluding me from competition. 

Just becasue Jim doesn't see what we do as competitive doesn't mean you and I don't. What makes you think I'm not being sincere?


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## oldbhtrnewequip

Jim C said:


> we aren't competing against one another-this is not a FITA or a 3D shoot.


Some people do think we are competing with one another. 
Just because its not FITA or a 3d shoot doesn't mean its non-competitive.
We're not living in a world of absolutes. Just because 3D shoots and FITA are competitive, doesn't mean that the experience is 100% about competition. 

The same thing is true during deer hunting.
Just because we're hunting doesn't mean 0% of the experience is non-competitive, with other hunters.

That is what this whole 'unfair' exchange with Source was all about. He says we're competing and I agree. As long as he says we're competing, we are competing, if I choose to compete. Its necessary to understand that we're competing in order to sort out the differences between unethical and unfair.
We got those differences hammered out.

Source thinks that if something is unethical to the deer, it would be unethical all the time. He supports a separate crossbow season. Therefore crossbows are ethical, as long as they are used at some time other than IN bow season. Because if they were used IN bow season it would only be unfair to other hunters who want to call themselves bow hunters while excluding crossbows. 

What I'm trying to get to is how do we hunt together in one season where I can use a crossbow and it'll be both ethical and fair.



Jim C said:


> There are reasons why archery has a long season and guns do not-its predicted harvest rates and the feeling that deer after gun season are far spookier


I agree. That doesn't mean its not competitive. 



Jim C said:


> I am against a primitive set aside -all archery same season is what I support


I also support an all archery season, but I'm not against a primitive set aside if that's what it takes.

What I'm trying to get to is how do we hunt together in one season where I can use a crossbow and it'll be considered to be both ethical and fair by the competition.


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## thesource

Crossbows would be considered both ethical and fair in their own season.

See how simple that is?


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## cynic

Well many as hunters seem to think that hunting is a sporting competition that places hunters against hunters, but according to all the states that I have searched, they recognize Hunting as an outdoor recreational activity. Then many look at the idea of primitive as the bow, but there is more to it.
*primitive archery */ A subset of traditional archery, specializing in the use, creation, or study of *primitive bows *and *primitive arrows*
*primitive bow* / Typically refers to a bow which is constructed as a selfbow. Can be a recurve, but usually a longbow, flatbow, or shortbow (horsebow). 
And while in the primitive season you would also need
*primitive arrow* / Typically refers to a wood self arrow with the feathers mounted in a primitive fashion (e.g., with sinew) and the arrowhead is usually either flint, obsidian, or other natural material.
So in my opinion many are/were thinking that using the word primitive would only go as far as the self bow, but that is not the end of the process. It is also my opinion that very very few would truly be willing to go totally primitive. It would also be viewed by some that most of the primitive selfbows and arrows would be unethical as to there ability to cause a quick clean death, thus cause the animal undo suffering
So by all of this the ones that went for the primitive were merely trying to beat their own chest, make others think that THEY are more elite and capable of hunting with any and all equipment that allows only them to be there and voice there division of seasons even further. They try to make others believe that even if it was harder they would still be doing it. Wrong, they have the _*choice*_ now and don't participate. Then they use the arguement that "why should I hunt with a self/trad when everyone else uses a compound" It is not about what someone else does or uses, it is about the hunt and how you choose to hunt and what you choose to hunt with. Hunting is an individual experience. I can not hunt for someone else nor them for me and gain a personal hunting experience.

So with all this and looking at the original post and seeing that Source posed 
the question I now realize the original intent was only to cause further division. The funnier thing is that 

Marvin states 
I would not mind having *2-3* weeks to be able to chase them with the self bows. I would like to be able to get one in velvet too. 
Now are you saying 2-3 wks of the season already in place? Which would mean that the compond hunters would have an extremely short archery season. But then
thesource states
I think that you could make a case that truly primitive hunters deserve first crack at the deer....*say the first week*. It needs to be in stone, though - wood, iron, and string only - in order to justify it. 
So I look at this as Source is willing to give part of the existing season to Primitive season but by the definition of _*Primitive*_
Free Range states In the Traditional circles, or non-wheel bow circles, Traditional pretty much means no wheels, and primitive means no modern materials, i.e. fiberglass, and synthetic glues. would mean that few hunters would be hunting. So is it the intent of you guys to further hunting opportunities or take away the opportunities that others have or is it that you guys just want more for yourselves, Knowing that very few others would be in your woods.


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## thesource

Actually, a pro crossbower brought up the question. (are you EVER right?)


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## cynic

oldbhtrnewequip said:


> Source,
> 
> Minor edits to where we last stood:
> 
> *Originally Posted by thesource
> I don't believe for a second you will "forget about crossbows for a moment."
> 
> If you succeed in getting folks to agree to wheelless, you will spring Excaliburs on them like a steel trap.....
> 
> Tell you what. We can include crossbows in your theoretical wheeless season if they are truly primitive. Wood and iron, no scopes...in fact, no sights.
> 
> Let's see how that flies. *


Okay, I guess that just because this is the very 1st post in this thread I must have taken what this thread was out of context and why the thread was created...It was what you wanted. So yes I am right again, but not always


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## thesource

Actually, this thread is a carry over from the one titled "Pollrimitive Archery Season", which was locked because one of your guys lost his grip and threatened someone. If you read the very post in that thread, you'll find it, too, was started by a procrossbower.

Which means you'll also find that you are wrong, yet again.


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## cynic

Did you or did you not ask the question that was the lead in this thread? Remember, This thread not any other thread, Not saying that the question wasn't posed in another thread but for this thread. Many new threads start from questions from other threads but for this thread it was started because *you* wanted to see how it would be percieved so this thread is based on what *you* wanted to know..This thread was based on what *you* posted. It is not based on what you repied to but rather what you replied. While it is very similar it is not a carry over..The original was a "wheelless archery season" but you made it "wheelless archery and primitive xbow. So while they are similar, by the implied change it is different.
See, I will break it down farther for you. It was tabled as wheelless archery season which means anything without wheels/pulleys.
You changed it to We can include crossbows in your theoretical wheeless season if they are truly primitive. Wood and iron, no scopes...in fact, no sights.
See no restriction on wheelless vertical bows only xbows. So by changing it from simply wheelless to a restriction of "Primitive" for xbow it changed the thread. So yes it spun from another thread that was similar your desire to apply restrictions changed it. Reading what *you* want in WHEELLESS was only placed for discussion to restrict those that choose to hunt with a wheelless bow unlike what you want people to hunt with thus putting you in control of yet another aspect of archery and hunting.


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## cynic

thesource said:


> Actually, this thread is a carry over from the one titled "Pollrimitive Archery Season", which was locked because one of your guys lost his grip and threatened someone. If you read the very post in that thread, you'll find it, too, was started by a procrossbower.
> Which means you'll also find that you are wrong, yet again.


I don't have any guys. While I do believe that all of archery belongs together as many others do. I also believe that everything has a place. If Traditional and Compound can share the same season so can xbows. If the archery season were to be divided into Trad- Compound- xbow then I would understand a seperate inclusion of the archery season but so long as todays compounds are allowed so should xbows.


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## Jim C

cynic said:


> I don't have any guys. While I do believe that all of archery belongs together as many others do. I also believe that everything has a place. If Traditional and Compound can share the same season so can xbows. If the archery season were to be divided into Trad- Compound- xbow then I would understand a seperate inclusion of the archery season but so long as todays compounds are allowed so should xbows.


good point, once the compounds and triggers were allowed in, the only reason why xbows are being excluded is because compound guys don't want any one else in the woods. EVERY SINGLE ARGUMENT that is used against crossbows was the same BS spewed at the compounds 30 years ago.

Those who don't study history are doomed to repeat it


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## Marvin

cynic said:


> Well many as hunters seem to think that hunting is a sporting competition that places hunters against hunters, but according to all the states that I have searched, they recognize Hunting as an outdoor recreational activity. Then many look at the idea of primitive as the bow, but there is more to it.
> *primitive archery */ A subset of traditional archery, specializing in the use, creation, or study of *primitive bows *and *primitive arrows*
> *primitive bow* / Typically refers to a bow which is constructed as a selfbow. Can be a recurve, but usually a longbow, flatbow, or shortbow (horsebow).
> And while in the primitive season you would also need
> *primitive arrow* / Typically refers to a wood self arrow with the feathers mounted in a primitive fashion (e.g., with sinew) and the arrowhead is usually either flint, obsidian, or other natural material.
> So in my opinion many are/were thinking that using the word primitive would only go as far as the self bow, but that is not the end of the process. It is also my opinion that very very few would truly be willing to go totally primitive. It would also be viewed by some that most of the primitive selfbows and arrows would be unethical as to there ability to cause a quick clean death, thus cause the animal undo suffering
> So by all of this the ones that went for the primitive were merely trying to beat their own chest, make others think that THEY are more elite and capable of hunting with any and all equipment that allows only them to be there and voice there division of seasons even further. They try to make others believe that even if it was harder they would still be doing it. Wrong, they have the _*choice*_ now and don't participate. Then they use the arguement that "why should I hunt with a self/trad when everyone else uses a compound" It is not about what someone else does or uses, it is about the hunt and how you choose to hunt and what you choose to hunt with. Hunting is an individual experience. I can not hunt for someone else nor them for me and gain a personal hunting experience.
> 
> So with all this and looking at the original post and seeing that Source posed
> the question I now realize the original intent was only to cause further division. The funnier thing is that
> 
> Marvin states
> I would not mind having *2-3* weeks to be able to chase them with the self bows. I would like to be able to get one in velvet too.
> Now are you saying 2-3 wks of the season already in place? Which would mean that the compond hunters would have an extremely short archery season. But then
> thesource states
> I think that you could make a case that truly primitive hunters deserve first crack at the deer....*say the first week*. It needs to be in stone, though - wood, iron, and string only - in order to justify it.
> So I look at this as Source is willing to give part of the existing season to Primitive season but by the definition of _*Primitive*_
> Free Range states In the Traditional circles, or non-wheel bow circles, Traditional pretty much means no wheels, and primitive means no modern materials, i.e. fiberglass, and synthetic glues. would mean that few hunters would be hunting. So is it the intent of you guys to further hunting opportunities or take away the opportunities that others have or is it that you guys just want more for yourselves, Knowing that very few others would be in your woods.



Crytic, If you want to ask me a question then do so, I do not appreciate your Weak responses since you obviously have no idea what I am talking about. So please, if you don't mind, ask a question before you try a meaningless rebuttal. I have not had a chance to aswer. It shows a lack of class not knowing the context in which I am talking about. We still are waiting on those pie tin 53 yard groups.


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## oldbhtrnewequip

thesource said:


> Crossbows would be considered both ethical and fair in their own season.
> 
> See how simple that is?


The objective was to get to the definition of a singular season where bows and crossbows could be used together and everyone thought it was fair.

You laid out a proposal and I accepted it. Are you retracting the proposal?


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## oldbhtrnewequip

cynic said:


> Hunting is an individual experience..


Its not 100% individual. If it were an individual experience why would you be posting here about hunting on this thread? There is a community/social aspect to hunting that we can't ignore.


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## oldbhtrnewequip

thesource said:


> Actually, a pro crossbower brought up the question. (are you EVER right?)


I think you're referring to me. Its unclear. What was the question?


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## Jim C

a fellow suggested a while back that here is what you do

leave the current archery season alone. THose using compounds or recurves buy a hunting license 

those using crossbows buy a license and an additional crossbow stamp. Same season, different fee. Now I oppose this because a crossbow hunter should not have to pay any fees additional to a compound so we could have a longbow/compound stamp and a crossbow stamp. Maybe if you hunt with more than one kind of bow (as I do) you can get a general stamp for both. This would allow the DNR's to track true harvest rates. Everyone would get the same amount of time (which is the only fair solution and yes, the selfish are going to have to deal with the fact that their compound bow should get them no more time than my excalibur). The people who have image/ego issues about being confused with xbow hunters will be able to boast at the local watering hole that they only buy a compound stamp so all the young ladies they are trying to pick up wont confuse them with a "wimpy xbow hunter":wink:


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## Free Range

> By Cynic
> So is it the intent of you guys to further hunting opportunities or take away the opportunities that others have or is it that you guys just want more for yourselves, Knowing that very few others would be in your woods.


If you would read you would know the answer to that question, at least as far as I am concerned. Here I will quote it for you in case you missed it.




> By Free Range
> Like I said before, about the only way I think it would be a good idea is if, it was an added season, not taken out of the bow season as it exist now.


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## Jim C

oldbhtrnewequip said:


> Its not 100% individual. If it were an individual experience why would you be posting here about hunting on this thread? There is a community/social aspect to hunting that we can't ignore.


Hunting is an individual experience. we hunt for ourselves and the only person you have to please is yourself. THat is why I am so incredulous over say the source's obsessive fixation on what other people hunt with-its obvious his self image is affirmatively affected by what you or I hunt with

I couldn't care less what kind of bow you hunt or target shoot or backyard fling with. Since I am no longer a dealer, I don't even care where you bought it or what brand it is:wink:


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## oldbhtrnewequip

cynic said:


> I don't have any guys. While I do believe that all of archery belongs together as many others do. I also believe that everything has a place. If Traditional and Compound can share the same season so can xbows. If the archery season were to be divided into Trad- Compound- xbow then I would understand a seperate inclusion of the archery season but so long as todays compounds are allowed so should xbows.


If you believed in competition between hunters, then you'd agree to these separate seasons. Trad bowhunters handicap themselves today. I get the sense that they don't want to, and would rather have a time that they can compete head to head with all other hunters out there who agree to a particular handicap.

If you don't agee that we are competing, then you don't see the logic behind the arguments of those who don't want crossbows to be in their own season.

I'm trying to get to a single season where we can compete. I used to be able to compete. I can't anymore....at least without someone smirking...or suggesting that I'm getting a 'by', so it doesn't really count.

We go back and forth on this issue of who is being divisive. I'm trying to get to compromise.


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## cynic

Marbleless, You are willing to have 2-3 wks Senseless, is willing to give 1 wk
he also make reference to the original thread which states
Assume that days will come out of existing bow seasons.
So Marbleless, I had no question just an observation that you would be willing to give more than others and thus take away from those using compounds for the sake of Tradition..So is your concience bothering you now. or is it that you have messed in your kit with your fellow hunters as it is clear that you would take away the majority of the season if it meant even *they* couldn't hunt?

Rather than replied in seperate: oldbhtr... I do not believe in competition between hunters. I don't believe that hunting for the sake of bettering another individuals score is hunting..There is not a winner and loser in hunting. hunting is an individual exp and if the definition is success is now defined as to who killed the biggest or the most, we have truly forgotten what hunting is.


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## Marvin

cynic said:


> Marbleless, You are willing to have 2-3 wks Senseless, is willing to give 1 wk
> he also make reference to the original thread which states
> Assume that days will come out of existing bow seasons.
> So Marbleless, I had no question just an observation that you would be willing to give more than others and thus take away from those using compounds for the sake of Tradition..So is your concience bothering you now. or is it that you have messed in your kit with your fellow hunters as it is clear that you would take away the majority of the season if it meant even *they* couldn't hunt?


Crytic
Snce you again don't have a clue, Ohio has a 4 MONTH season. Get it? we used to start the first weekend in october... No velvet then genious. Hence my comments. yeah 3.5 -3.25 months is a terribly short compound bow season.  I chose the time table I did for several reasons, 
1) the difficulty of the task - crossbows no nothing of this
2) the weather can be quite warm


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## oldbhtrnewequip

*source*

It is posts like this that caused me to put up the offer for
a wheelless season. You want us to be competitive with one another and
reduce the technology that we use, to do so. Hence my offer for wheelless, which I said was the most basic of all technology advancements. 

You turned it into relative competition when you suggested that Excalibur was out. I agreed. 

Let's get to what is fair, between hunters, in a single season where crossbow and bow are equal, to enable competition between men (and women).

*You said:
It's true.

They gave in to higher letoff because everyone was using it anyway and they risked becoming irrelevant (Jim would say they already are.)

I think the asterisk was their way of compromising.

Its a shame that technology (and those who violate fair chase and use it) are making their job harder.*


----------



## Marvin

Marvin said:


> Crytic, If you want to ask me a question then do so, I do not appreciate your Weak responses since you obviously have no idea what I am talking about. So please, if you don't mind, ask a question before you try a meaningless rebuttal. I have not had a chance to aswer. It shows a lack of class not knowing the context in which I am talking about. We still are waiting on those pie tin 53 yard groups.



here is a snipit from above 

"We don't have to decide if the season gets carved out of the existing bow season, or if new time is asked for, or if it should run concurrently."

genious

Waiting on a link for those desert tin 53 yard photos you said you posted


----------



## cynic

Marvin said:


> Crytic
> Snce you again don't have a clue, Ohio has a 4 MONTH season. Get it? we used to start the first weekend in october... No velvet then genious. Hence my comments. yeah 3.5 -3.25 months is a terribly short compound bow season.


Marbleless, this is not about Ohio it is about the inclusion in areas where they are restricted. Ohio has them in there season. We are not trying to get them in where they are already allowed (wake up) it stated time from existing season not making a new season. So if there was not velvet then by giving 2-3 wks there still won't be any velvet as it is time from existing season. velvet does not grow on the horn afterwards for the sake of equipment used


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## Free Range

Oldbhtrnewequip
It’s hard to read between the lines, and I think it would be good to sit down and talk about this face to face. You said you could no longer compete, what does that mean? And who are you competing with, do you feel some need to kill the largest deer, the most deer? 
I don’t see hunting as a competition between hunters, not in that there is a winner and loser. It’s more of a competition between hunter and prey, a continuation of the life and death struggle that has been fought for as long as we have walked this earth. Of course now days it is mostly, only a life and death situation for the deer, as we can stop at McDonalds on the way home. 
But to put this back in context, how does the different weapons come into play? Well let’s start with the one season any weapon concept. How is the competition between gun hunters and bowhunters fair, or ethical. I submit it is fair and ethical, if there is no intrinsic fairness attributed to the weapon, as was discussed in the fair chase thread. So if fairness and ethical issues are set aside, then what is next, does the gun give the gun hunter a better advantage at killing the biggest deer? Well all evidence says yes, how about the most deer, yes again. Which begs the next question are we competing for the biggest deer? Is there some reward for killing the biggest deer. Again yes, for those that seek fame and money from hunting. We can all agree there are those that do, should we allow them to compete in their own season? Say have a trophy season, or tournament, they do it with fishing.
Or do we just break the season in two, one for bow and one for guns? And if we do, why and how. 
Do we take the number of gun hunter vs bow hunters and give the most hunters the most opportunity? That is pretty much backwards of the way it is now, why? As Ace likes to point out the majority rules, right? Why do we give the bowhunters so much more time in the field, is it solely, as Jim likes to point out, because of harvest predictions? 
So if we agree that bowhunters need more time afield, and do break up the season based on harvest predictions, then, do we break down the seasons even farther, like ML season, shotgun season, handgun season, primitive, traditional, modern, and x-bow season. Sounds good, but then what are we left with? One week each, assuming each season is exclusive, and you must pick your weapon, no two season hunters. But what if a person can hunt with what is ruled a less effective weapon in any and all, less challenging seasons? A self bow hunter would then have the greatest opportunity afield, is that right, should one weapon type be afforded a longer season, based solely on our perception of how hard it is to use? Isn’t the hunter ultimately the deciding factor of how successful they are? How many people do you know that kill a deer every year with a bow, I know a few, how many don’t with a gun, I know a few of those too. So is it really the weapon or is it the hunter. 
I guess what I’m saying in a long winded way is, how and why do we divide the seasons? We need to come to an agreement on that basic issue first before any of this will ever be solved. And if it is totally the predictions of harvest rates, we have already lost as hunters. If what we do as hunters is nothing more then filling the shoes of predators, then we have lost our hunting heritage already, and hunting has become nothing more then another form of target shooting, it’s just that in this case the targets bleed.


----------



## Marvin

cynic said:


> Marbleless, this is not about Ohio it is about the inclusion in areas where they are restricted. Ohio has them in there season. We are not trying to get them in where they are already allowed (wake up) it stated time from existing season not making a new season. So if there was not velvet then by giving 2-3 wks there still won't be any velvet as it is time from existing season. velvet does not grow on the horn afterwards for the sake of equipment used


"The purpose is to develop a nationally accepted and recommended model by which individual state level Natural Resources folks can take direction. "

Everyone seems to look at ohio for their model since we were first for crossbows....God it must hurt to be you....


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## Marvin

Would in not be simplier to just set seasons on ease of use? Primative obviously the longest and crossbow the shortest? dates to be set by each state of course. I would even throw equipment restrictions in for compounds so they can be stepped into the season as the technology increases.


----------



## Jim C

Marvin said:


> Would in not be simplier to just set seasons on ease of use? Primative obviously the longest and crossbow the shortest? dates to be set by each state of course. I would even throw equipment restrictions in for compounds so they can be stepped into the season as the technology increases.



why? tell me how that is relevant to a DNR. I think what we have is a facade-people don't like crossbows so they go through all sort of machinations to create divisions when none are needed. 

There is no need to separate crossbows from compound bows. THere is no statistical evidence that such a division is required for the good of the herd.

what if trad bows have the same harvest rate as compounds? some say this is true. I don't think there IS ANY NEED OR REASON to have restrictions UNTIL there is evidence that the herd cannot sustain the length of the season with current advances

The goal is to allow people as much hunting time as the herd can sustain.


----------



## Free Range

> what if trad bows have the same harvest rate as compounds? some say this is true. I don't think there IS ANY NEED OR REASON to have restrictions UNTIL there is evidence that the herd cannot sustain the length of the season with current advances


Sounds good, so what happens if the herd starts to shrink for some reason, do we then take the x-bow away from those that have been using them, or shorten the season?


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## Jim C

Free Range said:


> Sounds good, so what happens if the herd starts to shrink for some reason, do we then take the x-bow away from those that have been using them, or shorten the season?


shorten the season. there is no rational reason to discriminate against one form of bow over another. when quail became scarce in ohio after killing winters in 77-78, they shortened the season and lowered the bag-they didn't exclude semi auto shotguns or using dogs


----------



## Marvin

Jim C said:


> why? tell me how that is relevant to a DNR. I think what we have is a facade-people don't like crossbows so they go through all sort of machinations to create divisions when none are needed.
> 
> There is no need to separate crossbows from compound bows. THere is no statistical evidence that such a division is required for the good of the herd.
> 
> what if trad bows have the same harvest rate as compounds? some say this is true. I don't think there IS ANY NEED OR REASON to have restrictions UNTIL there is evidence that the herd cannot sustain the length of the season with current advances
> 
> The goal is to allow people as much hunting time as the herd can sustain.


 Jim, My intention is to give the opportunity to the people that need it most. nothing more or less.


----------



## Jim C

Marvin said:


> Jim, My intention is to give the opportunity to the people that need it most. nothing more or less.



In Ohio everyone has 4 months. I haven't heard anyone saying they don't have enough time.


----------



## Marvin

Jim C said:


> In Ohio everyone has 4 months. I haven't heard anyone saying they don't have enough time.


 jim our herd is different that those in other states. this is supposed to be nationally. deer herds out west are different than here by leaps and bounds.


----------



## Jim C

Marvin said:


> jim our herd is different that those in other states. this is supposed to be nationally. deer herds out west are different than here by leaps and bounds.



perhaps that is so-I just haven't seen any evidence whatsoever that there ought to be a division between compounds and crossbows and you have to admit that most of the anti crossbow posters couch their arguments in something other than factual claims dealing with the herd


----------



## cynic

Marvin said:


> Jim, My intention is to give the opportunity to the people that need it most. nothing more or less.


Which person shooting 20 yds shots needs more time to harvest game? Do they need more time in order to allow the animal to get closer?


----------



## Marvin

cynic said:


> Which person shooting 20 yds shots needs more time to harvest game? Do they need more time in order to allow the animal to get closer?


 20 or 53 yards? which is it? make up your mind


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## cynic

Practice on target or hunting for game..Which are we talking about..


----------



## Marvin

Jim C said:


> perhaps that is so-I just haven't seen any evidence whatsoever that there ought to be a division between compounds and crossbows and you have to admit that most of the anti crossbow posters couch their arguments in something other than factual claims dealing with the herd


Jim its hard to really get a feel on the effects of weapons on herds since we loose 100000 hunters over a 10 year span. I am not sure why we are losing that many but i have my conclusions. The Procrossbow people hang their hat on teh fact that everyone is using a red dot scopes and 100 percent letoff bows that draw themselves too. but we both know that is not true either.


----------



## Marvin

cynic said:


> Practice on target or hunting for game..Which are we talking about..


I am still waiting on that link or pics if you don't mind and I'll tell you.


----------



## cynic

http://myfwc.com/hunting/handbook/handbook13.htm#6
Daily Bag and Possession Limits: Deer - daily limit two, possession limit four. Bag and possession limits for other game legal to take during archery seasons can be found under Bag Limits

If our herd sustains 2 per day in each season how many more deer do we need to have xbows in all of archery

Note: possession limit does not include processed deer in your freezer


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## cynic

Marvin said:


> I am still waiting on that link or pics if you don't mind and I'll tell you.


I am still waiting on all of you that stand behind P&Y to prove ur membership


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## thesource

I find all this quibbling ridiculous.

If we take 10 average bowhunters and have each of them shoot groups with a stickbow, a compound, and a crossbow ..... what is your anticipation of the results? With each weapon, at what range could they hold reasonable (let's say 4" for arguement sake) groups? What is your expectation of this experiment?

Crossbow - longest
Compound - middle
Stickbow - shortest.

Anyone who dares to say otherwise is simply not telling the truth.

That's because (and every single person on this board knows) that compounds are advantaged over stickbows, and crossbows are advantaged over compounds.

This whole debate is ridiculous.


----------



## Marvin

cynic said:


> I am still waiting on all of you that stand behind P&Y to prove ur membership


for what? why do i need to prove my memebership? Thread hijacker.


----------



## Marvin

thesource said:


> I find all this quibbling ridiculous.
> 
> If we take 10 average bowhunters and have each of them shoot groups with a stickbow, a compound, and a crossbow ..... what is your anticipation of the results? With each weapon, at what range could they hold reasonable (let's say 4" for arguement sake) groups? What is your expectation of this experiment?
> 
> Crossbow - longest
> Compound - middle
> Stickbow - shortest.
> 
> Anyone who dares to say otherwise is simply not telling the truth.
> 
> That's because (and every single person on this board knows) that compounds are advantaged over stickbows, and crossbows are advantaged over compounds.
> 
> This whole debate is ridiculous.


Yes it is. undeniably....


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## cynic

How long was Howard Hills longest shot and with what bow and what is average?


----------



## Jim C

Marvin said:


> Jim its hard to really get a feel on the effects of weapons on herds since we loose 100000 hunters over a 10 year span. I am not sure why we are losing that many but i have my conclusions. The Procrossbow people hang their hat on teh fact that everyone is using a red dot scopes and 100 percent letoff bows that draw themselves too. but we both know that is not true either.



1) I do not think there is any evidence whatsoever that even hints that the legalization of crossbows in archery season causes any decline in hunting numbers

2) I cannot prove with evidence that crossbow hunting has created more archery season hunters other than noting that 1) xbow archery hunting is the most popular brand of bowhunting in Ohio (and we have no information that tells us how many of those people would not hunt but for xbows) and 2) I know of numerous people who archery hunt because of crossbows who would not with compounds due to various physical injuries or age issues.

3) I also know at least a dozen people who started with crossbows and then started bowhunting with compounds and/or trads. 

losing hunters cannot be blamed on xbows at all and there at least is some evidence that xbows brings some people into hunting and more people into archery hunting. Several suburban towns near where I live legalized deerhunting for residents (and in some cases like me =non residents) and xbows were the weapon of choice for residents who wanted to hunt on their own property once it became legal


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## Jim C

thesource said:


> I find all this quibbling ridiculous.
> 
> If we take 10 average bowhunters and have each of them shoot groups with a stickbow, a compound, and a crossbow ..... what is your anticipation of the results? With each weapon, at what range could they hold reasonable (let's say 4" for arguement sake) groups? What is your expectation of this experiment?
> 
> Crossbow - longest
> Compound - middle
> Stickbow - shortest.
> 
> Anyone who dares to say otherwise is simply not telling the truth.
> 
> That's because (and every single person on this board knows) that compounds are advantaged over stickbows, and crossbows are advantaged over compounds.
> 
> This whole debate is ridiculous.


SOurce-I am the most knowledgeable xbow archer on this board and I say you are full of it.

You have not the credentials to even argue with me on xbow range versus compound range and I think we all know that. the bottom line advantage of crossbows vs compounds is NON EXISTENT


----------



## cynic

Marvin said:


> for what? why do i need to prove my memebership? Thread hijacker.


But marbelous Marvin why should I then prove anything to you...You will stand allied with them as long as it supports you and yours but don't want to waste your money to help the fight for what you believe in..NOW NOW


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## Marvin

Jim C said:


> 1) I do not think there is any evidence whatsoever that even hints that the legalization of crossbows in archery season causes any decline in hunting numbers
> 
> 2) I cannot prove with evidence that crossbow hunting has created more archery season hunters other than noting that 1) xbow archery hunting is the most popular brand of bowhunting in Ohio (and we have no information that tells us how many of those people would not hunt but for xbows) and 2) I know of numerous people who archery hunt because of crossbows who would not with compounds due to various physical injuries or age issues.
> 
> 3) I also know at least a dozen people who started with crossbows and then started bowhunting with compounds and/or trads.
> 
> losing hunters cannot be blamed on xbows at all and there at least is some evidence that xbows brings some people into hunting and more people into archery hunting. Several suburban towns near where I live legalized deerhunting for residents (and in some cases like me =non residents) and xbows were the weapon of choice for residents who wanted to hunt on their own property once it became legal



Jim your on a tangent again. I never said that the crossbow losses hunters. I was commenting on the herd issues and the not being able to determine and effect of the crossbow becuase we have lost soooo many hunters here.


----------



## Marvin

cynic said:


> But marbelous Marvin why should I then prove anything to you...You will stand allied with them as long as it supports you and yours but don't want to waste your money to help the fight for what you believe in..NOW NOW


 Wait a minute... weren't you the chest beater that said you can do something and the welch on it? ....gosh it really has to hurt to be you today.... typical


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## cynic

And when I proved that a compound could be shot one handed you cried about that too..The legend of yourself in such a small space(your own mind) must really get to you.


----------



## Marvin

cynic said:


> And when I proved that a compound could be shot one handed you cried about that too..The legend of yourself in such a small space(your own mind) must really get to you.



Geee it seems I have my very own groupie.... finally a reason for preperation-H...


----------



## Jim C

Marvin said:


> Jim your on a tangent again. I never said that the crossbow losses hunters. I was commenting on the herd issues and the not being able to determine and effect of the crossbow becuase we have lost soooo many hunters here.


er OK but I am still waiting to see an argument why crossbows and Compounds need to be treated differently. Source's claims have no merit and is based on how he feels not facts-None of my 3D pals (all of whom have dozens of deer to their credit) think a crossbow has a longer range than their compounds and none of them believe a crossbow guy can hang with them at longer distances on a 3D course (which might be why MBO shoots 50+yards in IBO and crossbow is limited to 45 yards)

I also note that noise is a big factor in limiting the range of archery shots at live game (that and trajectory through trees and vines etc) and not even the source would be stupid enough to claim that xbows are quieter than compounds


----------



## Free Range

> shorten the season. there is no rational reason to discriminate against one form of bow over another. when quail became scarce in ohio after killing winters in 77-78, they shortened the season and lowered the bag-they didn't exclude semi auto shotguns or using dogs


In the case of the quail it wasn’t due to auto shot guns and dogs. But lets say in the case of the x-bow, the only thing different was the addition of the x-bow. No famine, disease, no whole sale disruption in habitat. The only factor in the decrease is the large increase of hunters joining the bow season. Would it be fair to remove the use of the x-bow, after it had been introduced? And if not would it be fair to shorten bow season for those that do not use the x-bow because the x-bow users caused to large of an increase in deer harvested?


----------



## cynic

Marvin said:


> Geee it seems I have my very own groupie.... finally a reason for preperation-H...


PreparationH will not take that bad taste out of your mouth...


----------



## Jim C

Free Range said:


> In the case of the quail it wasn’t due to auto shot guns and dogs. But lets say in the case of the x-bow, the only thing different was the addition of the x-bow. No famine, disease, no whole sale disruption in habitat. The only factor in the decrease is the large increase of hunters joining the bow season. Would it be fair to remove the use of the x-bow, after it had been introduced? And if not would it be fair to shorten bow season for those that do not use the x-bow because the x-bow users caused to large of an increase in deer harvested?



nope-hunters using similar equipment ought to be treated similarly


----------



## Marvin

Jim C said:


> nope-hunters using similar equipment ought to be treated similarly


Begs the question then, define similiar....


----------



## Marvin

cynic said:


> PreparationH will not take that bad taste out of your mouth...


But it will stop that itching and burning from your lying rash.

also Just apply a little behind the ears and wham. that thing will slip right out. Seen quite a few use it with success


----------



## Jim C

Marvin said:


> Begs the question then, define similiar....



range, accuracy, rate of fire, projectile, means of propulsion


----------



## Marvin

Jim C said:


> range, accuracy, rate of fire, projectile, means of propulsion


range or effective range Jim? 

so the longbow/recurve is the same as the crossbow in all these catagories when they are stacked up against each other?


----------



## Jim C

Marvin said:


> range or effective range Jim?
> 
> so the longbow/recurve is the same as the crossbow in all these catagories when they are stacked up against each other?


I compare crossbows and compound bows-I have said all along that when the compound and release became the dominant bowhunting weapon, all arguments against crossbows disappeared. Given the vast majority of bowshot game is taken within 30 yards, the issue really isn't relevant anyway.

effective range and range favors the compound bow over the other two major archery weapons.


----------



## Marvin

Jim C said:


> I compare crossbows and compound bows-I have said all along that when the compound and release became the dominant bowhunting weapon, all arguments against crossbows disappeared. Given the vast majority of bowshot game is taken within 30 yards, the issue really isn't relevant anyway.
> 
> effective range and range favors the compound bow over the other two major archery weapons.


Would you like to answer my other question about the longbow. The compound favors the competition archer only. the crossbow favors anyone since archery skills are not needed to shoot it.


----------



## Jim C

Marvin said:


> Would you like to answer my other question about the longbow. The compound favors the competition archer only. the crossbow favors anyone since archery skills are not needed to shoot it.



I disagree-the compound favors average archers. AMong well practiced archers, the gap increases over the crossbow. THe crossbow favors absolute novices and those with extensive shooting backgrounds. I think the longbow ranges are shorter due to the lack of a sight and more things you can do wrong (finger release). Given the average shot, the perceived advantages of the mechanical bows diminish. 

once again, this is a debate that is really irrelevant. The arguments against crossbows are facades for the real reason-that being people don't want anymore people in "their season". Until you all can prove that crossbow archers are a threat to the herd, there is no meritorious argument.

I would note that old time archers said compound-release eliminates all archery skills too. Ann Hoyt-who has taken lots of game with all kinds of bows told my wife that compound archery teaches you to aim, while recurve archery teaches you how to shoot a bow.


----------



## Marvin

Jim C said:


> I disagree-the compound favors average archers. AMong well practiced archers, the gap increases over the crossbow. THe crossbow favors absolute novices and those with extensive shooting backgrounds. I think the longbow ranges are shorter due to the lack of a sight and more things you can do wrong (finger release). Given the average shot, the perceived advantages of the mechanical bows diminish.
> 
> once again, this is a debate that is really irrelevant. The arguments against crossbows are facades for the real reason-that being people don't want anymore people in "their season". Until you all can prove that crossbow archers are a threat to the herd, there is no meritorious argument.
> 
> I would note that old time archers said compound-release eliminates all archery skills too. Ann Hoyt-who has taken lots of game with all kinds of bows told my wife that compound archery teaches you to aim, while recurve archery teaches you how to shoot a bow.



Well then I assume yoru statements about 90% of compounders using improper form is off base then? There is no way the compound lends itself better to the average archer. thats a real stretch. Then by theory it should only take you and hour to have someone with a compound outshooting a crossbower. You and I both know it is not going to happen but I would like to hear the advantages that you percieve. Where does the longbow or primative bow fit into this equation?


----------



## Jim C

Marvin said:


> Well then I assume yoru statements about 90% of compounders using improper form is off base then? There is no way the compound lends itself better to the average archer. thats a real stretch. Then by theory it should only take you and hour to have someone with a compound outshooting a crossbower. You and I both know it is not going to happen but I would like to hear the advantages that you percieve. Where does the longbow or primative bow fit into this equation?


I again ask SO WHAT. we can spend hours debating what bow has an advantage but there is NO DATA that proves the assumption that a crossbow has an overall deer killing advantage. THat is the beauty of compound bows (or the curse) they can be shot really well with improper form. NO BACK TENSION, bent bow arms, etc are all -in terms of hunting accuracy-easily overcome by the peep, the mechanical release, the wall and the letoff.

I ask you again, you seem to think that because your current choice of equipment takes a bit longer to learn somehow ENTITLES you to more time in the woods. Please explain how a DNR should care about such a matter as long as the bottom line doesn't change.

What we have here is a sense of a pecking order based on the THEORETICAL assumption that 

1) EVERYONE will practice dilligently until they obtain the best possible hunting level accuracy

2) that those who practice SHOOTING MORE-care about hunting more

3) Those who practice more are somehow more worthy of the publics game and the hunting season.

I can argue the opposite. We should encourage bows that allow people to ethically take game over those that are less likely to do so. SINCE THERE IS NO proficiency requirement, the crossbow should be favored over other types.

AGAIN its a MOOT argument. The reasons for the seasons is based on an impact on the herd (I KNOW, the legislative historical record proves that) not some ephemeral and mystical pleas to the God of bowhunting or the true church of the PBS and other such nonsense.


----------



## thesource

Jim C said:


> SOurce-I am the most knowledgeable xbow archer on this board and I say you are full of it.
> 
> You have not the credentials to even argue with me on xbow range versus compound range and I think we all know that. the bottom line advantage of crossbows vs compounds is NON EXISTENT





OXYMORON = knowledgeable xbow archer 

LOL


----------



## Jim C

thesource said:


> OXYMORON = knowledgeable xbow archer
> 
> LOL


what moronic psychobabble-I have forgotten more about compound and recurve archery than you could possibly ever learn. As many have noted, I doubt you have any involvment in archery-your nonsense every day sounds more and more like you are an anti hunter.

Fact-the family that runs TEN POINT CROSSBOWS consists of PAA recurve legend Bill Bednar and FITA TEAM world champion Rick Bednar

Fact-Stan Pennypacker-a top ranked Crossbow archer and builder of crossbows is a well respected recurve coach (Penn State) and has been a coach of at least one international recurve team

FACT Bud Fowkes-another crossbow maker and archer was a US archery team coach (recurve) and highly respected recurve archer

FACT-Robert Kaufhold-owner of LAS and a US archery team member also was a crossbow competitior as was his father

FACT: Hardy Ward-World Target Champion-Recurve (FITA) held a patent on crossbow design and was a US indoor xbow champion

FACT: William Croft, several times national Xbow medalist also placed in national, regional, and local longbow competitions.

FACT: current OHio state indoor xbow champion Hobart Murphy is a LEVEL IV NAA coach and was the fellow who started current JR USAT Member Melissa Ash and 2000 Jr World Championship Team Member Brandon Spray off in the direction that lead to their national level success

Now smart guy, fill us in on your credentials


----------



## Marvin

What are these advantages that a compound has over a crossbow for the average user. I have yet to see any and would welcome your side of the spectrum since you probably have more experience with them than I. I can agree that the bottom line should not change if the herd is in good condition. Not a problem. But if it is you certianly must draw the line somewhere if it does become a problem. I am not sure it is fair to say just shorten the season for everyone when there is not a perception that the longbow has the same harvest rate as the crossbow. Remember the context of the thread. trying to set a guidline for the DNR's to follow. I do believe that Virginia showed an increase in harvest rate over other archery equipment in only its first year. Source can you help me out here


----------



## thesource

Marvin -

Here is the data from VA (the ONLY state (to my knowledge) to have an accurate number of crossbow hunters (because they have a separate stamp) and crossbow harvest:

_*Virginia 2005 archery/crossbow deer season*
Resident Crossbow - 14,522
Non-Resident Crossbow -525
15,077 total crossbowers

36% success ratio


Resident Archery - 51,714
Non-Resident Archery - 2,489
54,203 total archers

32% success ratio_

Remember, please, that all (but physically challenged) were ROOKIE crossbow hunters. It was there first time ever hunting deer with a crossbow. Let's see what happens to the harvest rate as they gain experience with shorter range hunting.


----------



## Jim C

advantages

1=Much quieter-on the shot

2) easier to use in woods-its amazing how many people have banged xbow limbs on trees, branches etc. You can get closer to your tree (assuming you hunt in a stand) 

3) the possibility of a second shot-


4) a ballistically more efficient projectile-most people are now hunting with 18/64 carbon arrows which are easily stablized (using mechanical heads) with even 3 inch vanes. Xbow hunting arrows are 22-23/64 and due to less leverage, require more stabilization. None of the leading brands of hunting crossbows can even use a 18/64 diameter shaft


----------



## cynic

Easier to draw

source this is an assumption 
Remember, please, that all (but physically challenged) were ROOKIE crossbow hunters. It was there first time ever hunting deer with a crossbow. Let's see what happens to the harvest rate as they gain experience with shorter range hunting.

As you have no idea what all the hunters did prior to this date or where they lived or hunted prior to these and the stats do not state 1st time xbowers. So there again the *ALL* you have no idea about all 15,077 total crossbowers.


----------



## Marvin

Jim C said:


> advantages
> 
> 1=Much quieter-on the shot
> 
> 2) easier to use in woods-its amazing how many people have banged xbow limbs on trees, branches etc. You can get closer to your tree (assuming you hunt in a stand)
> 
> 3) the possibility of a second shot-
> 
> 
> 4) a ballistically more efficient projectile-most people are now hunting with 18/64 carbon arrows which are easily stablized (using mechanical heads) with even 3 inch vanes. Xbow hunting arrows are 22-23/64 and due to less leverage, require more stabilization. None of the leading brands of hunting crossbows can even use a 18/64 diameter shaft



Gotcha...sorry i thought you meant there was an advantage to the compound in the fact that it is easier to shoot somehow at longer ranges for newbies. Sorry misunderstanding on my part.. Yes those are advantages. Glad you got rid of the being able to shoot behind a tree thing.


----------



## Jim C

Marvin said:


> Gotcha...sorry i thought you meant there was an advantage to the compound in the fact that it is easier to shoot somehow at longer ranges for newbies. Sorry misunderstanding on my part.. Yes those are advantages. Glad you got rid of the being able to shoot behind a tree thing.



there are deer I could not shoot at because I had a crossbow that I could have shot with a compound bow based on the fact that I couldn't get clearance for my limbs.

I also killed a deer shooting my crossbow lefthanded that I could not have shot with a compound bow

I note that if the average person hunts for say 10 years, they are only going to be a "newbie" 10% of the time. Me, I have been hunting with a bow for a quarter century now (deer etc) (rabbits et all-almost 35 years) so the concern about newbies is really not all that relevant.


----------



## thesource

oldbhtrnewequip said:


> It is posts like this that caused me to put up the offer for
> a wheelless season. You want us to be competitive with one another and
> reduce the technology that we use, to do so. Hence my offer for wheelless, which I said was the most basic of all technology advancements.
> 
> You turned it into relative competition when you suggested that Excalibur was out. I agreed.
> 
> Let's get to what is fair, between hunters, in a single season where crossbow and bow are equal, to enable competition between men (and women).
> 
> *You said:
> It's true.
> 
> They gave in to higher letoff because everyone was using it anyway and they risked becoming irrelevant (Jim would say they already are.)
> 
> I think the asterisk was their way of compromising.
> 
> Its a shame that technology (and those who violate fair chase and use it) are making their job harder.*



Pete,

You have historically been a pretty straight arrow. You have hunted with both bow and crossbow. I can tell you wish that you could still hunt with a bow, and I can empathize with you that you cannot.

What is your opinion? Are these hunting tools the same? Do you not see the advantage that the physically able would have if using a crossbow?

You are seeking legitimacy for your crossbow use, but I do not think you will find it with across the board crossbow legalization. Most bowhunters are inspired by those who are challenged and yet still find ways to continue to hunt. The opposite reaction occurs when folks are perceived to be taking the easy way out. Full legalization of the crossbow will make the perception worse, not better.

Bob


----------



## Jim C

who gives a damn about your perception SOurce and people who have the same issues you do. IN reality, as people see xbow archers in the woods, most of the idiotic stereotypes people like you spew will dissipate. I remember when xbow hunting first started in Ohio and when it basically got full hunting rights-you would hear all sorts of nonsense at places like "Primitive Weapons Arena" or "Fairfield Archers". I rarely heard that sort of BS in Ohio in the mid 90's on

basing laws on the fact that some people are bigoted is hardly sound thinking


----------



## Marvin

Jim C said:


> there are deer I could not shoot at because I had a crossbow that I could have shot with a compound bow based on the fact that I couldn't get clearance for my limbs.
> 
> I also killed a deer shooting my crossbow lefthanded that I could not have shot with a compound bow
> 
> I note that if the average person hunts for say 10 years, they are only going to be a "newbie" 10% of the time. Me, I have been hunting with a bow for a quarter century now (deer etc) (rabbits et all-almost 35 years) so the concern about newbies is really not all that relevant.


 The farthest shot I have made with my old crossbow was 27 yards. Barnett Wildcat 2. Do you even remember those things? Wood stock and wax the wood rails. what a BEAST:tongue: Still have her. Had a fixed pin rail cover and adjustable rear sight. i would shoot her but I am afraid she will break9old fiberglass limbs. I did kill a deer with one hand but that was because she was right under me.


----------



## Jim C

Marvin said:


> The farthest shot I have made with my old crossbow was 27 yards. Barnett Wildcat 2. Do you even remember those things? Wood stock and wax the wood rails. what a BEAST:tongue: Still have her. Had a fixed pin rail cover and adjustable rear sight. i would shoot her but I am afraid she will break9old fiberglass limbs. I did kill a deer with one hand but that was because she was right under me.



those things were pretty junky-ever see THE WILD GEESE? the lockwork on those barnetts was iffy. 27 yards was a heck of a shot. barnett was like Bear-at one time, they made great bows (in England) but they became the walmart maker and the quality went way down. some of their bows were decent-the RHINO was ok. I think you can still get those fiberglas prods-there is a place in Washington Courthouse called MARY'S BAIT SHOP and they have a ton of parts -at least they did when my wife ran' a customers POS PSE xbow up there a few years ago


----------



## thesource

Jim C said:


> there are deer I could not shoot at because I had a crossbow that I could have shot with a compound bow based on the fact that I couldn't get clearance for my limbs.


there are deer I could not shoot at because I had a bow that I could have shot with a crossbow based on the fact that I couldn't get clearance for my limbs from the horizontal branches of a tree. 


This is not an advantage - its a draw.


----------



## thesource

Jim C said:


> who gives a damn about your perception SOurce and people who have the same issues you do. IN reality, as people see xbow archers in the woods, most of the idiotic stereotypes people like you spew will dissipate. I remember when xbow hunting first started in Ohio and when it basically got full hunting rights-you would hear all sorts of nonsense at places like "Primitive Weapons Arena" or "Fairfield Archers". I rarely heard that sort of BS in Ohio in the mid 90's on
> 
> basing laws on the fact that some people are bigoted is hardly sound thinking


Get on bowsite's OH section and tell them xbows are generally accepted.

NOT.


----------



## Marvin

Jim C said:


> those things were pretty junky-ever see THE WILD GEESE? the lockwork on those barnetts was iffy. 27 yards was a heck of a shot. barnett was like Bear-at one time, they made great bows (in England) but they became the walmart maker and the quality went way down. some of their bows were decent-the RHINO was ok. I think you can still get those fiberglas prods-there is a place in Washington Courthouse called MARY'S BAIT SHOP and they have a ton of parts -at least they did when my wife ran' a customers POS PSE xbow up there a few years ago


Had pretty good luck with her. i think we bought her at sears. she was well made for her time. now i think I would be scared. I will look the place up. I always waited for that darn cocking mechanism to snap about half way back myself. might try to whack one if I can get her to shoot. I want to try a year to take a deer with every legal means available in one year. POS = PSE thought you knew that:tongue: never shaw too many crossbows when I was growing up. alot of guys used compounds with big overdraws.


----------



## Jim C

thesource said:


> Get on bowsite's OH section and tell them xbows are generally accepted.
> 
> NOT.



the gathering place of a few bigots? wow, that proves alot

Tell me source-how many deer have you taken in Ohio? How many Ohio hunters do you know

Me-I was a staff shooter for SW Ohio biggest pro shop-I was there at least 5 days a week during the season. I RAN the 300 Leagues there, I coached the youth section there. I then helped run a shop and range for 5 years. I am VP of the state NAA chapter. I belong to a sportsmens club that has an active archery (no not fita but rather 3D and hunters) program

I think I know far more what the sense of Ohio is over what you get from a site that is the mouthpiece for the most lie filled and bigoted group in the country when it comes to xbows


----------



## thesource

Jim C said:


> the gathering place of a few bigots? wow, that proves alot
> 
> Tell me source-how many deer have you taken in Ohio? How many Ohio hunters do you know
> 
> Me-I was a staff shooter for SW Ohio biggest pro shop-I was there at least 5 days a week during the season. I RAN the 300 Leagues there, I coached the youth section there. I then helped run a shop and range for 5 years. I am VP of the state NAA chapter. I belong to a sportsmens club that has an active archery (no not fita but rather 3D and hunters) program
> 
> I think I know far more what the sense of Ohio is over what you get from a site that is the mouthpiece for the most lie filled and bigoted group in the country when it comes to xbows



LOL - I'll quote you:


Jim C said:


> who gives a damn


 about your archery leagues and pro shop?

LOL. This is about HUNTING - who cares what you can shoot at spots?


----------



## Jim C

Marvin said:


> Had pretty good luck with her. i think we bought her at sears. she was well made for her time. now i think I would be scared. I will look the place up. I always waited for that darn cocking mechanism to snap about half way back myself. might try to whack one if I can get her to shoot. I want to try a year to take a deer with every legal means available in one year. POS = PSE thought you knew that:tongue: never shaw too many crossbows when I was growing up. alot of guys used compounds with big overdraws.



some of the PSE bows were well made-the Mach series, and the X factor ( I have owned several) are well made. The crossbows, though well made, were poorly balanced, loud and a mother to set up. Trackless xbows were designed when servings weren't very durable and you don't have to make a straight track. they are hard to tune and sound like a 22 short going off. Try shooting a clicker on an indoor range with someone using a "foxFire".

I think PSE bows get a bad rep because unlike Hoyt and Mathews, PSE has an economy line. Many people compare the 200 Nova to say the Sierra-tec or the Mathews ICON or Conquest when in reality they should have compared the 650 dollar PSE bows to the similarly priced Mathews and Hoyt or they should compare the mid level PSE's to the REFLEX brand by Hoyt. Its like comparing a Chevette to a 500 series BMW when you ought to compare the "vette to the Bimmer

At one time, the PSE Mach Series was the best bow going (early 80's) and they had many of the TOP PAA pros like the Ragsdales and IIRC Eric Hall.


----------



## Jim C

thesource said:


> LOL - I'll quote you:
> about your archery leagues and pro shop?
> 
> LOL. This is about HUNTING - who cares what you can shoot at spots?



I realize you aren't particulary up on stuff but the vast majority of people who shoot spots and 3D and hang out in pro shops are the hard core archery hunters-the people who really live for archery and bowhunting. How do you EVEN KNOW if the people on some bowsite chat room even hunt. I doubt you hunt because half the stuff you say is absolute BS. there is not a single person on this board that I know of who can vouch for your supposed expertise

you and some like y ou whine that xbows are for the lazy and xbow trophies don't count as much as "real bow" trophies yet you then claim that practicing on targets means nothing

That is an idiotic claim and every top bowhunter I know practices all the time on targets and many shoot leagues. You say that because NO ONE HERE can even vouch that you can shoot a bow

I have also seen you whine that how people score in 3D with various forms of bows means nothing-which again proves how truly ignorant you are. the fact is we cannot have meaningful comparisons of accuracy based on game because there is no adequate control factors. we don't know the conditions, the cover, the length of the shot etc. On a target course, we know the conditions. I also note the PBS thought target accuracy was important since they lied about xbow novices outshooting target compound experts

I note after your nonsense about xbow archery being an oxymoron I think most people realize what they are dealing with in your posts


----------



## Marvin

Jim C said:


> some of the PSE bows were well made-the Mach series, and the X factor ( I have owned several) are well made. The crossbows, though well made, were poorly balanced, loud and a mother to set up. Trackless xbows were designed when servings weren't very durable and you don't have to make a straight track. they are hard to tune and sound like a 22 short going off. Try shooting a clicker on an indoor range with someone using a "foxFire".
> 
> I think PSE bows get a bad rep because unlike Hoyt and Mathews, PSE has an economy line. Many people compare the 200 Nova to say the Sierra-tec or the Mathews ICON or Conquest when in reality they should have compared the 650 dollar PSE bows to the similarly priced Mathews and Hoyt or they should compare the mid level PSE's to the REFLEX brand by Hoyt. Its like comparing a Chevette to a 500 series BMW when you ought to compare the "vette to the Bimmer
> 
> At one time, the PSE Mach Series was the best bow going (early 80's) and they had many of the TOP PAA pros like the Ragsdales and IIRC Eric Hall.


 Been next to the foxfire...I know what your talking about. not real desirable as you nicely point out. My first bow was a PSE. i shoot my mathews just a hair better but Mathews is a lot smoother. Do you remember the horton xbow with the wood monte carlo stock on it?


----------



## thesource

Jim C said:


> I realize you aren't particulary up on stuff but the vast majority of people who shoot spots and 3D and hang out in pro shops are the hard core archery hunters-the people who really live for archery and bowhunting. How do you EVEN KNOW if the people on some bowsite chat room even hunt. I doubt you hunt because half the stuff you say is absolute BS. there is not a single person on this board that I know of who can vouch for your supposed expertise
> 
> you and some like y ou whine that xbows are for the lazy and xbow trophies don't count as much as "real bow" trophies yet you then claim that practicing on targets means nothing
> 
> That is an idiotic claim and every top bowhunter I know practices all the time on targets and many shoot leagues. You say that because NO ONE HERE can even vouch that you can shoot a bow
> 
> I have also seen you whine that how people score in 3D with various forms of bows means nothing-which again proves how truly ignorant you are. the fact is we cannot have meaningful comparisons of accuracy based on game because there is no adequate control factors. we don't know the conditions, the cover, the length of the shot etc. On a target course, we know the conditions. I also note the PBS thought target accuracy was important since they lied about xbow novices outshooting target compound experts
> 
> I note after your nonsense about xbow archery being an oxymoron I think most people realize what they are dealing with in your posts



I think you are actually starting to believe your own bullcrap, Jim.

Most hunters I know shoot in their backyards, or next door at their neighbor's 3d deer. They don't worry about IBO lines - they put it in the pumphouse.

Naw, without a doubt there are THOUSANDS of backyard shooters that would whip your butt for you....but you give them no credit because they aren't in leagues or tournaments.

It is simply your arrogant opinion. But then again, every single thing you post is.

One opinion is as good as the next ....


----------



## Jim C

Marvin said:


> Been next to the foxfire...I know what your talking about. not real desirable as you nicely point out. My first bow was a PSE. i shoot my mathews just a hair better but Mathews is a lot smoother. Do you remember the horton xbow with the wood monte carlo stock on it?



nice looking bow-Explorer IIRC-sometimes the stock would slightly warp though-not good for accuracy. I don't like Mathews bows from a personal standpoint. The balance and the grips bug me but I shot a clean (15 target league) 3d round fingers with an early conquest-I had the finger cams (low letoff) and it was great for that. They are probably the quietest bows I owned-I now have an 04 Hoyt tec riser hunting bow


----------



## Jim C

thesource said:


> I think you are actually starting to believe your own bullcrap, Jim.
> 
> Most hunters I know shoot in their backyards, or next door at their neighbor's 3d deer. They don't worry about IBO lines - they put it in the pumphouse.
> 
> Naw, without a doubt there are THOUSANDS of backyard shooters that would whip your butt for you....but you give them no credit because they aren't in leagues or tournaments.
> 
> It is simply your arrogant opinion. But then again, every single thing you post is.
> 
> One opinion is as good as the next ....


nope source-opinions based on expertise count more than the braying of someone with no credentials. You don't know those backyard shooters and no-people who have never competed are not going to step up on a line with 300 other shooters and beat people who are used to it

of course since you have never shot a national tournament we will chalk your claim up to more of the unlearned ignorance you spew continually.

Again, your opinion on crossbows has no merit because you know not of what you talk about and your opinion is based on ignorance and hoplophobic nonsense

btw a guy who doesn't attend shoots, doesn't shoot leagues etc is going to know more about the backyard archers than someone who sells to them etc?

I see you still haven't tried to defend the moronic oxymoronic bs you spewed earlier given all those people I mentioned know more about archery than you could even dream of


----------



## thesource

Jim C said:


> the bottom line advantage of crossbows vs compounds is NON EXISTENT


Who cares about your credentials? Not me.

Why don't you argue with Revival? He has very clearly stated that he feels he has a big advantage with his crossbow.

Why not chastise BigBirdVA? He admitted that he switched to a crossbow from a compound because it was advantageous.

Why not take issue with Twogun? He can't quite admit that a crossbow is advantaged due to political considerations, I'm sure, but he claims he uses it because he is more "confident" with a crossbow then a compound. (I read that as advantaged.)

Are you going to call them all liars? Are you can quibble about credentials?

Perhaps you are the one who isn't telling the entire truth, here - you do come across as an anti-establishment radical.


----------



## Jim C

thesource said:


> Who cares about your credentials? Not me.
> 
> Why don't you argue with Revival? He has very clearly stated that he feels he has a big advantage with his crossbow.
> 
> Why not chastise BigBirdVA? He admitted that he switched to a crossbow from a compound because it was advantageous.
> 
> Why not take issue with Twogun? He can't quite admit that a crossbow is advantaged due to political considerations, I'm sure, but he claims he uses it because he is more "confident" with a crossbow then a compound. (I read that as advantaged.)
> 
> Are you going to call them all liars? Are you can quibble about credentials?
> 
> Perhaps you are the one who isn't telling the entire truth, here - you do come across as an anti-establishment radical.


one of the many intellectual mistakes you make is confusing individual ancedotes with the general population. I can find you dozens of people who argue the opposite but its all a facade anyway

we know why you are so adamant about having some form of archery apartheid-its because you have serious self esteem issues that cause you to think that somoene else hunting with a bow you consider to be cheating or unfair affects how you perceive yourself in the eyes of others. That is the only thing we can draw from your 1800+ posts on AT that do nothing but whine about crossbows. Your comments prove to me that you are trying to prove to yourself that your issues are really justified. 

You also seem to demonstrate that you resent people who actually have some standing in this sport who know that your nonsense is just that. You know nothing about crossbow hunting yet you claim crossbow trophies are not of the same worth as compound trophies. You claim crossbow hunters cheat and really don't earn the right to hunt.

yet in all these 1800 posts you have never explained how you are objectively harmed by what someone else does. Its not like they are competing against you and if they don't feel an ego inflation because they do it the SOURCE's way who the hell are you to tell them they aren't worthy?

Bowhunting is an individual recreational activity in which I only have to please myself. If bowhunting is no longer fun for me I will not do it. I certainly don't need someone with no standing telling me my bowhunting experience is "cheapened" because I don't bow at the alter of the Source. That you are so worried about someone else proves to me you really don't have faith in your own church. That when asked, your main defense was to claim crossbows aren't bows or that crossbow hunters aren't bowhunters is pathetic bit of sophistry which again proves to me-and many others-that what we are dealing with is a warped sense of faith purveyed by an individual who has some serious confusions rather than a rational argument that can honestly be debated


----------



## thesource

Jim -

EVERYONE knows that crossbows are advantaged. Some are honest enough to admit it. 

Others are not.

Some might claim that your refusal to admit that crossbows are an advantage is your way of shoring up a damaged self esteem, since to admit that would make you admit you are inferior, somehow, yo a bowhunter.

I don't know - I'm not a shrink. Neither are you of course.

What I do know is that we all know that crossbows are advantaged and that procrossbowers (antibowhunters) realize that admitting it weakens their case for inclusion.

Especially the radical ones.


----------



## Jim C

thesource said:


> Jim -
> 
> EVERYONE knows that crossbows are advantaged. Some are honest enough to admit it.
> 
> Others are not.
> 
> Some might claim that your refusal to admit that crossbows are an advantage is your way of shoring up a damaged self esteem, since to admit that would make you admit you are inferior, somehow, yo a bowhunter.
> 
> I don't know - I'm not a shrink. Neither are you of course.
> 
> What I do know is that we all know that crossbows are advantaged and that procrossbowers (antibowhunters) realize that admitting it weakens their case for inclusion.
> 
> Especially the radical ones.


sure they are advantaged-for some people and for some situations
in other cases they are not
the bottom line is that their advantages have never been proven to translate into advantages in the hunting field and in the OBJECTIVE and controlled environment of target and 3D shooting, they are DISADVANTAGED compared to compounds

It doesn't weaken my argument at all-you see Source, I know more about xbows and xbow hunting than you know about any form of bowhunting and 30 years of data in Ohio cannot be used to support your contention

try again-you keep losing


----------



## thesource

Jim C said:


> in the OBJECTIVE and controlled environment of target and 3D shooting, they are DISADVANTAGED compared to compounds


I wonder if you realize how absurd that sounds.

Targets and 3D don't move....can't see you draw....or hear your arrow slide across the rest.

You do not have a firm enough grip of the realities of bowhunting to tell us anything - you obviously can't be objective enough to deal with these realities. Do you even hunt anymore?

You continuously confuse target archery with hunting when every idiot knows they are not the same. You are simply a crossbow radical preaching the gospel according to xbows.


----------



## Jim C

thesource said:


> I wonder if you realize how absurd that sounds.
> 
> Targets and 3D don't move....can't see you draw....or hear your arrow slide across the rest.
> 
> You do not have a firm enough grip of the realities of bowhunting to tell us anything - you obviously can't be objective enough to deal with these realities. Do you even hunt anymore?
> 
> You continuously confuse target archery with hunting when every idiot knows they are not the same. You are simply a crossbow radical preaching the gospel according to xbows.



ANYONE HERE EVER BOWHUNTED WITH THE SOURCE?
ANYONE HERE EVER SEEN HIM SHOOT A BOW?


If target archery is not related, why do so many bowhunters practice on targets? Why do so many 3D pros say they started 3D to become BETTER HUNTERS

since you don't want to use any object source-I want you to PROVE using facts that crossbows have an overall deer killing advantage. I want you to tell us of all your years using both kinds of bows so you can make an accurate comparison

And Source-I want you to tell us what is your obsession with telling other hunters that their hunting is not bowhunting and how them using crossbows and calling it bowhunting hurts you


----------



## awshucks

???? procrossbower [antibowhunter]???? 'Nother of those there Oxymorons?? Knowlegable Source? ROTFLMAO!


----------



## Free Range

> Why don't you argue with Revival? He has very clearly stated that he feels he has a big advantage with his crossbow.
> 
> Why not chastise BigBirdVA? He admitted that he switched to a crossbow from a compound because it was advantageous.
> 
> Why not take issue with Twogun? He can't quite admit that a crossbow is advantaged due to political considerations, I'm sure, but he claims he uses it because he is more "confident" with a crossbow then a compound. (I read that as advantaged.)


And don’t forget Ace, well he hasn’t actually shot an x-bow, but he sure knows a lot about them. And when repeatedly offered an olive branch and asked to start off with facts he refuses. One can only assume he doesn’t have any facts, or he would be posting them.


----------



## twogun

thesource said:


> Who cares about your credentials? Not me.
> 
> Why don't you argue with Revival? He has very clearly stated that he feels he has a big advantage with his crossbow.
> 
> Why not chastise BigBirdVA? He admitted that he switched to a crossbow from a compound because it was advantageous.
> 
> *Why not take issue with Twogun? He can't quite admit that a crossbow is advantaged due to political considerations*, I'm sure, but he claims he uses it because he is more "confident" with a crossbow then a compound. (I read that as advantaged.)
> 
> Are you going to call them all liars? Are you can quibble about credentials?
> 
> Perhaps you are the one who isn't telling the entire truth, here - you do come across as an anti-establishment radical.





Try to be accurate with what you write.





> In all honesty, I would expect that a crossbow hunter would have a slight advantage by not having to draw. But in the end, so what? If that is grounds to ban them, then treestand height should be regulated and ground blind use should be banned.(twogun)


----------



## Jim C

The ARC's (anti rights coalition) posters have to realize that if they want to feel better hunting the "hard way" (in my opinion that means no tree stands, no camo, no blinds, hand made bows, flint arrowheads you chipped) by stalking deer that is fine but I tire of these people saying that we are somehow inferior or we should feel less proud of our hunting experience because we don't measure up to what they CLAIM they do


----------



## thesource

twogun said:


> Try to be accurate with what you write.


Careful, here, twogun.

I have always considered you to be one of the more honest antibowhunters. You spin, but you don't lie.

If you recall, the first time you and I engaged in conversation about crossbows you asked if I considered you lazy for choosing the crossbow.

I asked "why do you use a crossbow when you have a compound?"

You were not as politically savvy then as you are now, and you replied "I have more confidence in the crossbow. I am only confident in my compound to about 20 yards." (The statement should SCREAM about the relative differences in itself.)

Since then, you have killed at least 1 doe with a compound - congratulations.

But you still hunt primarily with a crossbow, and have admitted to using it until you get your buck. I wonder why?


----------



## thesource

Jim C said:


> The ARC's (anti rights coalition) posters have to realize that if they want to feel better hunting the "hard way" (in my opinion that means no tree stands, no camo, no blinds, hand made bows, flint arrowheads you chipped) by stalking deer that is fine


Are YOU doing that? No - that's right, you are hunting with a crossbow. LOL. That is ironic - someone taking the easiest path telling someone else what the hard path entails. What a joke.



Jim C said:


> but I tire of these people saying that we are somehow inferior or we should feel less proud of our hunting experience because we don't measure up to what they CLAIM they do


I haven't seen anyone say that. You are making it up - more evidence of your activism.


----------



## Jim C

thesource said:


> Careful, here, twogun.
> 
> I have always considered you to be one of the more honest antibowhunters. You spin, but you don't lie.
> 
> If you recall, the first time you and I engaged in conversation about crossbows you asked if I considered you lazy for choosing the crossbow.
> 
> I asked "why do you use a crossbow when you have a compound?"
> 
> You were not as politically savvy then as you are now, and you replied "I have more confidence in the crossbow. I am only confident in my compound to about 20 yards." (The statement should SCREAM about the relative differences in itself.)
> 
> Since then, you have killed at least 1 doe with a compound - congratulations.
> 
> But you still hunt primarily with a crossbow, and have admitted to using it until you get your buck. I wonder why?


why are you a liar Source-how can you call someone an ANTIBOWHUNTER because they think all bows ought to hunt together? Is this part of your issues Source-that if you don't worship at the temple of the Source you are the arch heretic? 

you are far more anti bowhunting and anti bowhunter than anyone else in this debate because you belittle and insult others by claiming they aren't bowhunters


----------



## Jim C

thesource said:


> Are YOU doing that? No - that's right, you are hunting with a crossbow. LOL. That is ironic - someone taking the easiest path telling someone else what the hard path entails. What a joke.
> 
> 
> 
> I haven't seen anyone say that. You are making it up - more evidence of your activism.


Can you find a single person on all of archery talk who will vouch for you helping archery or doing what this site is about-ARCHERS HELPING ARCHERS

WHY ARE YOU SO unable to answer the main question that I and others have put to you

HOW ARE YOU OBJECTIVELY AFFECTED BY THE SORT OF BOW ANOTHER HUNTER USES

(and saying its not a bow is pathetic BS and we all know it)


----------



## thesource

Jim C said:


> If target archery is not related, why do so many bowhunters practice on targets? Why do so many 3D pros say they started 3D to become BETTER HUNTERS


Of course they do. And of course, the serious hunters also shoot at 3D targets, but we hit them where we're supposed to and ignore those silly IBO lines. Shot angles are more important than scores, when you are a bowhunter. (I call my 3D deer "stuffy"....cute, huh?)



Jim C said:


> And Source-I want you to tell us what is your obsession with telling other hunters that their hunting is not bowhunting and how them using crossbows and calling it bowhunting hurts you


Simple - you need to kill deer with a bow to earn the title of "bowhunter". Anyone who can't doesn't deserve the title.


----------



## Marvin

thesource said:


> But you still hunt primarily with a crossbow, and have admitted to using it until you get your buck. I wonder why?


 OOOHHH OOOOHHH I know source !! I know...


----------



## thesource

Jim C said:


> Can you find a single person on all of archery talk who will vouch for you helping archery or doing what this site is about-ARCHERS HELPING ARCHERS


Cynic should. I helped him understand what "nominal letoff" means last weekend.

You should too. I've schooled you in physics a dozen times in the last year. Too bad the lessons don't stick. You still try to claim that a crossbow bolt drops like a brick. More partisan crossbow spin from our resident crossbow zealot.



Jim C said:


> WHY ARE YOU SO unable to answer the main question that I and others have put to you
> 
> HOW ARE YOU OBJECTIVELY AFFECTED BY THE SORT OF BOW ANOTHER HUNTER USES


Asked and answered 100 times. Do a search and don't waste AT members' time.


----------



## Jim C

thesource said:


> Of course they do. And of course, the serious hunters also shoot at 3D targets, but we hit them where we're supposed to and ignore those silly IBO lines. Shot angles are more important than scores, when you are a bowhunter. (I call my 3D deer "stuffy"....cute, huh?)
> 
> 
> 
> Simple - you need to kill deer with a bow to earn the title of "bowhunter". Anyone who can't doesn't deserve the title.



yet we have no proof you have ever done that. we also don't think you have the standing or credibility to tell others what a bow is


----------



## Jim C

thesource said:


> Cynic should. I helped him understand what "nominal letoff" means last weekend.
> 
> You should too. I've schooled you in physics a dozen times in the last year. Too bad the lessons don't stick. You still try to claim that a crossbow bolt drops like a brick. More partisan crossbow spin from our resident crossbow zealot.
> 
> 
> 
> Asked and answered 100 times. Do a search and don't waste AT members' time.



the only answer we have seen is the pathetic claim that a crossbow isn't a bow

that doesn't affect you

try again and stop being a coward


----------



## thesource

Jim C said:


> yet we have no proof you have ever done that. we also don't think you have the standing or credibility to tell others what a bow is


WE?

Do you have a mouse in your pocket, Jim?

Or do you now presume to speak for everyone on AT? Or just your mini-legion of compound hating stringgunners?

Enquiring minds want to know.....


----------



## cynic

Just reading the logo at the top of the page. Archers helping Archers...I have not been able to find that unless "you agree to there way, doing what they do". I thought that taking a break from this topic would somewhat change. This is like a soap opera no matter how long you stay gone you don't miss a thing..Every couple of posts it is the same arguement over and over and over..The durocell bunny ain't got nothing on you guys..Its easier, further range, no draw, it ain't a bow until you can prove it will be a detrement to the herd and your individual hunt..give it a break. If you so decide to not to use a crossbow so be it. It will be your choice


----------



## Marvin

cynic said:


> Just reading the logo at the top of the page. Archers helping Archers...I have not been able to find that unless "you agree to there way, doing what they do". I thought that taking a break from this topic would somewhat change. This is like a soap opera no matter how long you stay gone you don't miss a thing..Every couple of posts it is the same arguement over and over and over..The durocell bunny ain't got nothing on you guys..Its easier, further range, no draw, it ain't a bow until you can prove it will be a detrement to the herd and your individual hunt..give it a break. If you so decide to not to use a crossbow so be it. It will be your choice


 can i use a gun too? I don't want my RIGHTS INFRINGED upon


----------



## cynic

thesource said:


> WE?
> 
> Do you have a mouse in your pocket, Jim?
> 
> Or do you now presume to speak for everyone on AT? Or just your mini-legion of compound hating stringgunners?
> 
> Enquiring minds want to know.....


I'll back him not because he uses a xbow but rather he doesn't descrimnate against hunters that hunt with a different weapon be it long, recurve,, compound, spear, ML, rifle, Shotgun.


----------



## Marvin

cynic said:


> I'll back him not because he uses a xbow but rather he doesn't descrimnate against hunters that hunt with a different weapon be it long, recurve,, compound, spear, ML, rifle, Shotgun.


I'LL BACK SOURCE:cocktail:


----------



## cynic

Marvin said:


> can i use a gun too? I don't want my RIGHTS INFRINGED upon


I can not say what your capabilities are when it comes to using a gun..only that if it is gun season I'm sure that unless it is illegal for you to possess one, you too would be able to carry a gun hunting. Now whether you can use it I have no idea


----------



## cynic

Marvin said:


> I'LL BACK SOURCE:cocktail:


I bet you will


----------



## Marvin

cynic said:


> I have no idea


Couldn't tell. Really you hide it so well. Actually i would take no more or less deer with my gun than my bow. Thats a zero impact on the herd so my gun would fit right along with your crossbow and 53 yard dessert tin shots. Where' an antibowhunter when you need one to get your back.


----------



## cynic

Marvin said:


> Actually i take no deer with my bow. Thats a zero impact on the herd Where' an antibowhunter when you need one


Isn't this what you really were saying..


----------



## Marvin

cynic said:


> Isn't this what you really were saying..


looks like my preperation H is wearing off.  You never did get that thing out of there did you. No matter the scenery is the same...rough crowd when they edit your posts...must be a canadian UBCK memeber source!!


----------



## cynic

Marvin said:


> my gun would fit right along with your crossbow and 53 yard dessert tin shots. Where' an antibowhunter when you need one to get your back.


You must really have a hard time dealing with the fact that others shoot better than you and still will accept the xbow in the same woods.


----------



## cynic

Marvin said:


> looks like my preperation H is wearing off.  You never did get that thing out of there did you. No matter the scenery is the same...rough crowd when they edit your posts...must be a canadian UBCK memeber source!!


Wrong person you and source have each others back..Wait who edited who first, Oh I forgot it is okay for one side not the other


----------



## thesource

cynic said:


> I'll back him not because he uses a xbow but rather he doesn't descrimnate against hunters that hunt with a different weapon be it long, recurve,, compound, spear, ML, rifle, Shotgun.


Hmmm - does this mean you want ALL of these things in bowseason?


----------



## cynic

No but if you will try to keep up with this
http://myfwc.com/hunting/handbook/handbook01.htm
Archery Season 
Muzzleloading Gun Season 
General Gun Season - Deer & Hog 
Antlerless Deer Season 
Fall Turkey Season 
Quail and Gray Squirrel Season 
Special Post-Season Archery &
Muzzleloading Gun Season 
This is the way seasons break down here It is not long,recurve or compound BOW season it is ARCHERY season. So in archery season it should include all archery equipment...


----------



## thesource

See, its confusing....

because what you said was ....


cynic said:


> I'll back him not because he uses a xbow but rather he doesn't descrimnate against hunters that hunt with a different weapon be it long, recurve,, compound, spear, ML, rifle, Shotgun.



But now what you suggest is that you are fine with discriminations:


cynic said:


> Archery Season
> Muzzleloading Gun Season
> General Gun Season - Deer & Hog
> Antlerless Deer Season
> Fall Turkey Season
> Quail and Gray Squirrel Season
> Special Post-Season Archery &
> Muzzleloading Gun Season


As long as the discrimination occurs along the lines that YOU consider fair and proper.

You are just another zealot. You and Jim need to join the mainstream.

Crossbows in their own season. Bows in bowseason.


----------



## cynic

Genious, If you could see past the back of marvins head you would be able to read..wait marvin has ur back never mind..No where did I see BOW SEASON it says ARCHERY but Fl does have a Crossbow season that allows the hypocrits to horn in on a season While they keep others out of theres using archery equipment.


----------



## cynic

Marvin, I know that you will have a rebutal for this but lasered 54 yds. It is not a dessert tin but you will get the jest.
Moderator If these are not allowed please remove 

















Mcpherson SDS 63# 28" draw. The top arrow only has 1 and 1/2 fletching. As you see from the target I shoot alot. It is backyard at its best..No competition only friends flinging arrows..Ya'll are going to tell me that a xbow has more magic...Right


----------



## thesource

Decent 20 yard group.

Looks like you need to work on the tune a little - funny angles on the shafts, there.

I can help you with that, if you need it. Archers helping Archers, you know.


----------



## cynic

I'm sorry but I don't shoot 20yd groups, messes up too many arrows..Now back to the primitive season


----------



## thesource

cynic said:


> I'm sorry but I don't shoot 20yd groups, messes up too many arrows


With that bow tune you won't mess up many arrows. LOL

My 14 yr old asked why your fletching isn't angled more upwards if you are shooting from so far away. Its a fair question.


----------



## Jim C

thesource said:


> WE?
> 
> Do you have a mouse in your pocket, Jim?
> 
> Or do you now presume to speak for everyone on AT? Or just your mini-legion of compound hating stringgunners?
> 
> Enquiring minds want to know.....



nah just the 15 or so people who PM me about your nonsense:wink: 

want to shoot say a compound fita against me for some money source. we will see how much I hate compounds 

why do you make crap up? its bad enough that you have serious personal issues that cause this nonsense-then you start spewing hateful BS that people who use crossbows are anti-bowhunting when its you who insults bowhunting and have the unmitigated arrogance to think you actually count and have the standing to tell US what a bow is


----------



## twogun

thesource said:


> Careful, here, twogun.
> 
> I have always considered you to be one of the more honest antibowhunters. You spin, but you don't lie.
> 
> If you recall, the first time you and I engaged in conversation about crossbows you asked if I considered you lazy for choosing the crossbow.
> 
> I asked "why do you use a crossbow when you have a compound?"
> 
> You were not as politically savvy then as you are now, and you replied "I have more confidence in the crossbow. I am only confident in my compound to about 20 yards." (The statement should SCREAM about the relative differences in itself.)
> 
> Since then, you have killed at least 1 doe with a compound - congratulations.
> 
> But you still hunt primarily with a crossbow, and have admitted to using it until you get your buck. I wonder why?


Nothing has changed. Politics has nothing to do with it. I still feel more confident with my crossbow and still buck hunt with it. 

You wrote:


> He (me) can't quite admit that a crossbow is advantaged due to political considerations


That is not accurate. I provided a quote from the past to prove it. I've also posted in the past that I would expect crossbow harvest rates to be slightly higher (Of course there would be "situational specifics", fewer misses/woundings and, heck maybe crossbow hunters are more dedicated than compounders) My position has always been, "So what?"

My position has always been that crossbows increase hunter freedoms, opportunities, and choices. I think that crossbows have been a great thing in Ohio, and I think that hunters in other states could bennefit from them in much the same way I have.

Being politically savvy has nothing to do with it. That's just another misrepresentation to try to discredit what I say. 

BTW, there is nothing "antibowhunter" about me.


----------



## the-ghost

still at it guys... man wish i sold keyboards...


----------



## cynic

thesource said:


> With that bow tune you won't mess up many arrows. LOL
> 
> My 14 yr old asked why your fletching isn't angled more upwards if you are shooting from so far away. Its a fair question.


As the fruit didn't fall far from the tree. While trying to discredit the shot his observation could have only been spawned by you and you seeing what you want rather than knowing what it is. I will answer his question for you.. 
1.Shooting up hill
2. Using blunt field tips shooting into a rolled,wrapped,layered object on the upward sweep. As it penetrates the outer layer the inner layers get tighter and causes the arrow to follow the path of the layer

I hope that this answers your sons question. I actually feel better knowing that you would approve of that group at 20yds knowing the actual distance of the shot. So once again what you assume and choose not to believe has no bearing on what it really is.


----------



## thesource

twogun said:


> I think that crossbows have been a great thing in Ohio, and I think that hunters in other states could bennefit from them in much the same way I have.


Why wait for the crossbow? Hunters could already be out enjoying archery season in ALL states, if that is what they seek ... if they would get off their collective butts and learn to shoot a bow.

Laziness - pure and simple.


----------



## Jim C

thesource said:


> Why wait for the crossbow? Hunters could already be out enjoying archery season in ALL states, if that is what they seek ... if they would get off their collective butts and learn to shoot a bow.
> 
> Laziness - pure and simple.



ah the great source is back to putting down other people based on his warped sense of entitlement due to his unsupported claims that he somehow deserves access to a season on the grounds that his chosen bow takes more time to master even if we have no assurances that the source actually took the time to master his alleged chosen bow

once again-using the source's psychologically troubled concept of hunting rights, that means my top joad kids (one who is now averaging 1200 arrows a week training for nationals and the world team) are more deserving of hunting in bow season than the source because I know that source would be destroyed in any comparison of archery skill with this boy.

learning how to shoot a bow is not a requirement to get a bowhunting license source. that is a sad fact. you really need help. your arrogance is starting to come through again source and again -and I will do this until you muster the cajones to answer it-I ask you how are you objectively harmed by someone using a bow that they might master a bit easier than the one you PRETEND to hunt with


----------



## Marvin

cynic said:


> Marvin, I know that you will have a rebutal for this but lasered 54 yds. It is not a dessert tin but you will get the jest.
> Moderator If these are not allowed please remove
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Mcpherson SDS 63# 28" draw. The top arrow only has 1 and 1/2 fletching. As you see from the target I shoot alot. It is backyard at its best..No competition only friends flinging arrows..Ya'll are going to tell me that a xbow has more magic...Right


 thats a pop can not a desert tin ......big difference....your arrows do need a little help I am a little suspiosios only because at that distance you arrows should be point down( the tips mind you) a little. they seem to be straight in ....


----------



## Marvin

cynic said:


> As the fruit didn't fall far from the tree. While trying to discredit the shot his observation could have only been spawned by you and you seeing what you want rather than knowing what it is. I will answer his question for you..
> 1.Shooting up hill in florida? your not that far up hill
> 2. Using blunt field tips shooting into a rolled,wrapped,layered object on the upward sweep. As it penetrates the outer layer the inner layers get tighter and causes the arrow to follow the path of the layer Which does not make sense because your two bottom arrows are further toward the center yet they out penetrate the top arrow which is in the "looser material" Like source said nice 20 yard group. Even though it wrapped tight, the hay is still easily penetrated because it is a long fiberous material.
> I hope that this answers your sons question. I actually feel better knowing that you would approve of that group at 20yds knowing the actual distance of the shot. So once again what you assume and choose not to believe has no bearing on what it really is.


:cocktail: sorry not buying it. you would need to be severly uphill to get those results.


----------



## thesource

Jim C said:


> by someone using a bow that they might master a bit easier than the one you PRETEND to hunt with



A bit easier? 

Try FUNDAMENTALLY DIFFERENT. That ought to get you closer to the ballpark.


----------



## Jim C

thesource said:


> A bit easier?
> 
> Try FUNDAMENTALLY DIFFERENT. That ought to get you closer to the ballpark.



compound and crossbow-both eliminate all the difficult skills needed to shoot a trad bow. 

we know what kind of woman you are, now we merely are haggling over the price 

again I ask SO WHAT source. compounds became popular because they eliminated

1) the need to train to shoot a hunting weight bow
2) the need to shoot most of the year 
3) (with peep sights) the need to learn string alignment
4) (mechanical releases) the need to learn the "loose" and with modern back walls and a release, the use of bt is optional with most compound hunters

and yet you pss and moan about xbows. 

We need to know what causes your obsession over another guy's choice in archery tackle

If you aren't satisfied using a crossbow or even a Poop and Dung disproved Compound that is fine-tell us what causes you to find your ego threatened by someone who doesn't choose to do it as hard as you do


----------



## twogun

thesource said:


> Why wait for the crossbow? Hunters could already be out enjoying archery season in ALL states, if that is what they seek ... if they would get off their collective butts and learn to shoot a bow.
> 
> Laziness - pure and simple.



Translation:



> You have proven me wrong, and I really can't make a valid point at this time, so I will dodge the real issues and resort to insults, hasty unsupportable generalizations, and hunter bashing.


Very typical.


----------



## Marvin

twogun said:


> Translation:
> 
> 
> 
> Very typical.


 Source has a point twogun they are 98% the same


----------



## Marvin

*Funny Link. read the first page- safety rules*

http://www.dnr.ohio.gov/wildlife/PDF/chapter5.pdf


----------



## twogun

Marvin,

Put your water wings back on.


----------



## Marvin

twogun said:


> Marvin,
> 
> Put your water wings back on.


What? are you telling me Jim is wrong?


----------



## Jim C

Marvin said:


> Source has a point twogun they are 98% the same



source never has any points Marvin. whether a person is lazy or not when it comes to shooting has no relevance if they are lazy or not when it comes to hunting. I know guys who love to shoot their bows who spend NO TIME scouting, etc. I know guys who scout and do other stuff for days and barely shoot their bows-be it compound or crossbow

and furthermore it doesn't matter. NOTHING in the law or game regulations requires that you practice. If the GOVERNMENT doesn't care why should the source care and again, I would rather have people kill the animal cleanly than wound it

I realize some on this board think that if others don't meet their standards of work ethic they shouldn't be allowed to hunt. That sort of attitude makes me puke and is counterproductive to hunting.

and like it or not Marvin-you know as well as I do that source has never given a straightforward or rational argument as to why he obsesses over this issue


----------



## Free Range

Cynic, it sure looks like you are shooting at the side of the big round bale. All the round bales I have ever seen (and this country boy has seen more then a couple) the layers run the other way, so how can your arrows be following the layers when they should be cutting across the layers not going with them? Just an observation, but I do have to say that is a fair group for 54yds. 
Back when I shot a compound (15years ago) and back when I still dipped, we used skoal can lids for targets. Now that I have become citified and don’t have that much room in the back yard, 15 yards is about all I can shoot on a day to day basis. I try to get out to the range on the weekends and work on the longer shots.


----------



## thesource

Jim C said:


> again I ask SO WHAT source. compounds became popular because they eliminated
> 
> 1) the need to train to shoot a hunting weight bow
> 2) the need to shoot most of the year
> 3) (with peep sights) the need to learn string alignment
> 4) (mechanical releases) the need to learn the "loose" and with modern back walls and a release, the use of bt is optional with most compound hunters
> 
> and yet you pss and moan about xbows.


More compound hating spew, I see. You really need to join the mainstream, Jim, where the majority have no issues with compounds.

Your points are even more lame than usual.

Bowhunters still need to train to shoot a hunting weight bow - 70# draw weights don't break over by themselves. 

Many serious bowhunters do indeed shoot throughout the year. 

Compound bows don't come with peepsights or mechanical releases  (If you have a problem with these items, direct your hatefulness at the items, not the compound)

I know guys who shoot their recurves with releases  

Its all irrelevant because compounds and recurves are both bows, fundamentally.

And your stringgun is fundamentally different than a bow.

Just because you huff and puff from the lunatic fringe doesn't mean that mainstream bowhunters need to agree.


----------



## Jim C

Poor source-"compound hating" is another one of your well documented lies. I was hunting deer with compounds in NYS 25 years ago. In addition to me owning at least a half dozen compounds I also coached several compound archers including "all olympian" team member Matt McNicholas who still holds the state and regional field records in compound and my wife who won state and regional field, state and regional target and a national open team compound title. I just find amusing compound archers who whine about crossbows being "too easy" or "Anti Bowhunting" when everyone who was around 30 or years ago remember that the nonsense you and your ilk spew about crossbows sounds exactly like the swill that was being spitted at compounds.


There is no need to shoot a 70 pound hunting bow for deer in Ohio or NYS. Minimum legal here is 40 and more and more people are going to 50-60 pound bows. I have yet to meet a normal man who cannot pull back a 55 pound compound bow.. Very few people an even hold at full draw my 45 pound olympic bow without severe shaking.

YOU CANNOT take a year off shooting a recurve and expect to be able to shoot it easily when you come back. A compound is far different and that is why so many bowhunters only shoot their bows in the hunting season.


THAT YOU IGNORE the question I have put to you dozens of times proves you are coward and given the number of PM's I get from people about you, they see your obsession for what it is


----------



## thesource

Jim C said:


> I have yet to meet a normal man who cannot pull back a 55 pound compound bow.


EXACTLY. Yet they don't. They whimper and whine for a rule change so they can avoid even that and get an object that is held, aimed, and shot like a gun into bowseason. They sniffle and scream the most terrible things like bigot, cultist, and antihunter. They cry and complain about exclusion, even though they are perfectly capable of doing what every existing bowhunter has had to do ... learn to shoot a bow. 

You are wasting your breath bellowing about how easy a compound is to hunt with....if it is so easy, then no one has an excuse not to already be using one.

Correction - there is one excuse. Too lazy to learn to bowhunt.


----------



## Jim C

thesource said:


> EXACTLY. Yet they don't. They whimper and whine for a rule change so they can avoid even that and get an object that is held, aimed, and shot like a gun into bowseason. They sniffle and scream the most terrible things like bigot, cultist, and antihunter. They cry and complain about exclusion, even though they are perfectly capable of doing what every existing bowhunter has had to do ... learn to shoot a bow.
> 
> You are wasting your breath bellowing about how easy a compound is to hunt with....if it is so easy, then no one has an excuse not to already be using one.
> 
> Correction - there is one excuse. Too lazy to learn to bowhunt.


MOre source arrogance

are people who use compounds too lazy to learn how to use traditional equipment?

once again, you dodge the main question-how is another person's alleged work ethic (the training regimine my top kids go through would wear your sorry butt out in a day) any concern to you other than proping up your fragile ego?


----------



## Marvin

*Ouch!*



thesource said:


> EXACTLY. Yet they don't. They whimper and whine for a rule change so they can avoid even that and get an object that is held, aimed, and shot like a gun into bowseason. They sniffle and scream the most terrible things like bigot, cultist, and antihunter. They cry and complain about exclusion, even though they are perfectly capable of doing what every existing bowhunter has had to do ... learn to shoot a bow.
> 
> You are wasting your breath bellowing about how easy a compound is to hunt with....if it is so easy, then no one has an excuse not to already be using one.
> 
> Correction - there is one excuse. Too lazy to learn to bowhunt.


:cocktail:


----------



## Jim C

Marvin said:


> :cocktail:


You are far more rational than the Source so maybe you can answer this question

what is the government's concern as to who is lazy and why does anyone care

If you use a compound bow you don't have to work near as hard as a trad bow

who cares?

if you use a crossbow, you have to work less hard (on shooting-all the other stuff is the same) as a compound bow but that difference is FAR less than the difference between a trad and a compound)

SO WHAT

Marvin-do you think crossbow hunters hurt your image as a bowhunter? or do you think-as a former Crossbow hunter who now hunts with other bows-that your experience is such that you want to "convert" crossbow hunters for their own good?


----------



## Marvin

Jim C said:


> You are far more rational than the Source so maybe you can answer this question - Jim you making me blush here. :embara:
> 
> what is the government's concern as to who is lazy and why does anyone care - Jim the government doesn't give a rats rear end about us or anything no matter what we shoot. Its is ONLY about money
> 
> If you use a compound bow you don't have to work near as hard as a trad bow
> 
> who cares? - well there are quite a few of us
> 
> if you use a crossbow, you have to work less hard (on shooting-all the other stuff is the same) as a compound bow but that difference is FAR less than the difference between a trad and a compound)
> 
> SO WHAT - no archery skills involved at all thats the difference.
> 
> Marvin-do you think crossbow hunters hurt your image as a bowhunter? or do you think-as a former Crossbow hunter who now hunts with other bows-that your experience is such that you want to "convert" crossbow hunters for their own good?


 Short version - yes. ( this is the answer to the last set of questions)


----------



## twogun

Marvin said:


> Short version - yes. ( this is the answer to the last set of questions)



Anxiously awaiting the "long" version.

:moviecorn :moviecorn :moviecorn


----------



## Jim C

that people care or that "no archery skills" are really not sufficient to try to prevent other people from using what they want

many old timers claim compounds with releases require No archery skills since most of us who shoot recurves think the fundamental archery skills are the release, the use of BT and the string alignment

BTW one of the KEY archery skills is range estimation and a crossbow requires that as much as a compound and another ARCHERY HUNTING skill is getting close to the game

again I ask, what does it matter TO YOU what skills other people have

I understand what really motivates this-you want to keep people out of the season by imposing a time cost that many compound archers don't pay but you think will intimidate some would be bowhunters

WHY CANNOT everyone be honest

lets debate whether more or less archery season hunters are GOOD not playing games with INSULTING the people who use one kind of Bow


----------



## Marvin

Jim C said:


> that people care or that "no archery skills" are really not sufficient to try to prevent other people from using what they want
> 
> many old timers claim compounds with releases require No archery skills since most of us who shoot recurves think the fundamental archery skills are the release, the use of BT and the string alignment
> 
> BTW one of the KEY archery skills is range estimation and a crossbow requires that as much as a compound and another ARCHERY HUNTING skill is getting close to the game
> 
> again I ask, what does it matter TO YOU what skills other people have
> 
> I understand what really motivates this-you want to keep people out of the season by imposing a time cost that many compound archers don't pay but you think will intimidate some would be bowhunters
> 
> WHY CANNOT everyone be honest
> 
> lets debate whether more or less archery season hunters are GOOD not playing games with INSULTING the people who use one kind of Bow



I thought this was about a primative season?


----------



## Jim C

Marvin said:


> I thought this was about a primative season?


good point-me too. I wonder what the Source of the sidetrack was:wink:


----------



## Marvin

Jim C said:


> good point-me too. I wonder what the Source of the sidetrack was:wink:


At least you have your wit about you when your mad:wink:


----------



## Jim C

Marvin said:


> At least you have your wit about you when your mad:wink:



Mad-I don't get mad here. I am amused


----------



## thesource

Jim C said:


> WHY CANNOT everyone be honest
> 
> lets debate whether more or less archery season hunters are GOOD not playing games with INSULTING the people who use one kind of Bow


Good idea - let's BE HONEST.

You start by admitting that crossbows are advantaged and fundamentally different than bows and we will work from there.

We all agree that more bowhunters is a good thing .... the debate stems around what constitutes a bowhunter. Crossbow hunters don't count.

I don't think you should chastise anyone for insults...you are the clear leader in the clubhouse.


----------



## thesource

Marvin said:


> I thought this was about a primative season?


I am patiently awaiting a response from oldbhtr - he seems to be one of the few that want to truly discuss it.




Jim C said:


> good point-me too. I wonder what the Source of the sidetrack was:wink:


That response seemed a bit CYNICal to me....:tongue:


----------



## Jim C

thesource said:


> Good idea - let's BE HONEST.
> 
> You start by admitting that crossbows are advantaged and fundamentally different than bows and we will work from there.
> 
> We all agree that more bowhunters is a good thing .... the debate stems around what constitutes a bowhunter. Crossbow hunters don't count.
> 
> I don't think you should chastise anyone for insults...you are the clear leader in the clubhouse.



each bow is fundamentally different from the others

I ask again-SO WHAT

You don't count as to what your definition of a bowhunter is-get that through your head

YOu are the clear leader in insults because you just called over 100,000 people non bowhunters

AGAIN I ASK-what do you get out of telling lots of people they aren't bowhunters other than massaging your ego?


----------



## thesource

here's what you need to understand, Jim.

YOU do not get to define a bowhunter, either. Your opinion is as insignificant as the next guys. You are an antiestablishment upstart, a radical, who thinks if you scream loudest it will make you sound important and people might pay attention to you.

They won't - they'll recognize it as the illegitimate protestations of a crossbow user - no one expects a crossbow user to admit that they are violating the rules or taking the easy way out. You are preaching only to your small choir.

On the other hand, 83 BOWHUNTING organizations in the NABC say you are wrong - dead wrong.

I think I'll pay attention to them, not some faceless "expert" on the internet.


----------



## Jim C

thesource said:


> here's what you need to understand, Jim.
> 
> YOU do not get to define a bowhunter, either. Your opinion is as insignificant as the next guys. You are an antiestablishment upstart, a radical, who thinks if you scream loudest it will make you sound important and people might pay attention to you.
> 
> They won't - they'll recognize it as the illegitimate protestations of a crossbow user - no one expects a crossbow user to agree that they are violating the rules or taking the easy way out. You are preaching only to your small choir.
> 
> On the other hand, 83 BOWHUNTING organizations in the NABC say you are wrong - dead wrong.
> 
> I think I'll pay attention to them, not some faceless "expert" on the internet.


YOu are clueless again. Your cult like devotion against anyone who doesn't follow your Church is pathetic and your desire to tell others that they have to worship at your temple is pathologically driven. You have never ever explained how someone else taking what you call the easy way affects you and how more people hunting hurts your fragile ego is beyond sickness. I have given more to archery than you have by a wide margin and you are an insignificant nobody in this sport 

as to being a radical-no its psychologically warped people such as you who are "radicals" because your obsessive compulsive fixation on other people and how they enjoy a hobby or a recreational activity is the same sort of control freak mentality that causes most of the evil in the world. You are a fanatic who needs to judge and demean others in an area where their actions have no objective affect upon you. You are a menace to bowhunting and your devisive nonsense is welcomed by the anti hunting elements in society. 

Me, I merely want people to be able to choose what they want to hunt with and since you have never ever come close to showing that a crossbow hurts bowhuntinig or even hurts the lunatic fringers you have failed your burden of proof


----------



## thesource

Jim C said:


> I have given more to archery than you have by a wide margin and you are an insignificant nobody in this sport


Well .... there you go again.

Who cares about archery? We are talking about BOWHUNTING "and you are an insignificant nobody in this sport."



Jim C said:


> as to being a radical-no its psychologically warped people such as you who are "radicals"


No, you are!:tongue: LOL - you do realize how childish that sounds, don't you? 

It is clear that your agenda of forcing crossbows into archery seasons without even considering a separate crossbow season proves to everyone that you are out there on the fringe - the liberal fringe, in this case.



Jim C said:


> Me, I merely want people to be able to choose what they want to hunt with


That's fine. I agree that folks should choose what they want to hunt with. That doesn't mean they get to choose what season they get to hunt with it in. Extrapolating your radical ideaology has guns in the surrounding treestands next - thanks a lot.


----------



## Jim C

Lame as usual source

what are you going to do when most states allow crossbows in archery season? call us radicals or do the right thing and admit you were wrong? maybe quit bowhunting because now the hot chicks at your favorite bar might think you are a crossbow hunter when you brag about being a bowhunter? apologize to all the people you have defamed? or just sit back and whine about how your sport is ruined?

I really don't care because as most people realize, their satisfaction doesn't turn on how a few arrogant nobodies feel about what others do


----------



## thesource

Jim C said:


> what are you going to do when most states allow crossbows in archery season?


LOL - let's wait until you get ANYWHERE close to discuss that, shall we?

You are simply the extreme left of archery, trying to force your will onto the majority.


----------



## Jim C

thesource said:


> LOL - let's wait until you get ANYWHERE close to discuss that, shall we?
> 
> You are simply the extreme left of archery, trying to force your will onto the majority.



how does saying someone can use another type of bow force anything on you? That is a gaping lie-right now you bigots prevent people from using a bow that has been around for centuries because your fragile ego can't stand a violation of your cult's creed while we don't force you to do anything but to do what you want and leave others alone


----------



## thesource

Its not a bow, its a crossbow. Its different and has ALWAYS been different.

You don't belong - I'm sorry if that hurts your feelings.


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## Jim C

thesource said:


> Its not a bow, its a crossbow. Its different and has ALWAYS been different.
> 
> You don't belong - I'm sorry if that hurts your feelings.


poor source-Ohio says I belong, I say I do and you don't count. Its a form of bow-that is why its called a Cross BOW. I guess you really are upset that the ATA, the IBO, the NFAA and the NAA also agree with me. must suck to be on the wrong side of the aisle. You don't hurt my feelings-I know that I count far more than you in any sort of archery community.

You still can't tell us what drives your pathological need to tell others they aren't welcome when their presence IN NO WAY WHATSOEVER hurts you


----------



## 460461whatever

*I'll discuss a "primitive season"*

Seasons and season lengths are based (key word: based) upon game populations and the difficulty in achieving harvest goals. OK, now we know it's generally easier to kill a deer with a rifle than with a bow (hand drawn or stringgun). So, the powers-that-be have given gun hunters a shorter season, or the bowhunters a longer season, depending on your perspective. Populations are also handled with varied limits, so as to give the game a rest for a good chunk of the year. With all these variables, it's hard to expect two different regions to manage their seasons the same as the other. So, if I am against crossbow use during the entire archer season in southwestern MN (low densities of deer) doesn't mean that I think they should'nt use them in, for at least part of the archery season, parts of the rest of the state.

With that said, I also think that a primitive season could be added on to either the beginning or end of the existing archery season. I have bowhunted with both, compounds and primitive, and I firmly believe it's usually more difficult to bring down a deer with no sights and no wheels. I also firmly believe that the crossbow is the next increment in making kills easier from compounds. So, you can argue definitions all you want, use and seasons of crossbows will still rely on the general perception of what is fair and useful in managing game.

Modern firearms seasons in MN range from two days to two weeks, depending on area. Muzzleloaders (no scopes) run a seperate, later season for more than two weeks. And, our archery season runs from the middle of Sept. to the end of Dec. Our allowable individual harvesting goes from one antlered deer to one antlered and six antlerless, also depending on the area/s that you hunt and the type of license/s that you carry. It seems to be getting more complicated every year, so, I think many people here don't care about crossbows because it's just one more thing to think about and keep track of.

I just hope that the game managers in each state are allowed to do what's best to keep the herds healthy, and that it casts a positive image of hunters to the nonhunters.


----------



## thesource

No, Jim.

Sorry, but you are wrong again.

I'm happy for you that you can hunt in Ohio, because almost everywhere else you are not considered to be a legitimate part of bowhunting. Here in NY, you are not even allowed to carry your xbow afield...might as well jacklight a deer with an .06 - lol.

I'm not upset at all that your target archery organizations agree with you - I have absolutely no problem with crossbow class archery competition. The problem is that doesn't mean squat with regards to bowhunting - it is meaningless as are your archery "credentials." No one cares about crossbows in competition - although it is worth noting they are in a SEPARATE class.

All the BOWHUNTING organizations agree with me - they think you are dead wrong, they would agree with my opinion that you don't belong in bowseason - and they probably couldn't care how important you think you are.

Just like me.


----------



## Jim C

thesource said:


> No, Jim.
> 
> Sorry, but you are wrong again.
> 
> I'm happy for you that you can hunt in Ohio, because almost everywhere else you are not considered to be a legitimate part of bowhunting. Here in NY, you are not even allowed to carry your xbow afield...might as well jacklight a deer with an .06 - lol.
> 
> I'm not upset at all that your target archery organizations agree with you - I have absolutely no problem with crossbow class archery competition. The problem is that doesn't mean squat with regards to bowhunting - it is meaningless as are your archery "credentials." No one cares about crossbows in competition - although it is worth noting they are in a SEPARATE class.
> 
> All the BOWHUNTING organizations agree with me - they think you are dead wrong, they would agree with my opinion that you don't belong in bowseason - and they probably couldn't care how important you think you are.
> 
> Just like me.


you define anything that disagrees with you as a target organization and anything that is bigoted as a bowhunting organization which proves how lame you are

one of these days Poop and Dung will be welcoming crossbows or it will be even less relevant than it is now

your issues continue to prevent you from honestly telling us how you are hurt by what someone else wants to bowhunt with

that you evade this while I honestly answer why xbows should be included proves alot about the two sides and its why you will ultimately lose (you have already lost all credibility)


----------



## thesource

Ummmmm ....

you listed target organizations and the ata - which is a trade organization.

None of these are real bowhunting organizations (like Pope and Young, for example).

By the way - better do a deeper study on the ATA's position on crossbows. They do not actually endorse them in archery season...check it out and get back to me.


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## thesource

Here's a great example why xbows should have their own season ...

I pulled this off the excalibur website. 

_In seven shots...right out of the box...never shot one before...I had just put an arrow within 1" of a 1" spot at 50 yds. I don't think I've ever been as impressed and amazed with anything in my life and just had to share this experience with anyone who's not sure about getting one._

Please, please ... tell me how many brand new BOW hunters you know that can do that in 7 shots and at 50 yards.

To compare crossbows and bows is a sad and sick joke.


----------



## Jim C

thesource said:


> Ummmmm ....
> 
> you listed target organizations and the ata - which is a trade organization.
> 
> None of these are real bowhunting organizations (like Pope and Young, for example).
> 
> By the way - better do a deeper study on the ATA's position on crossbows. They do not actually endorse them in archery season...check it out and get back to me.



they have to keep some of their bigoted members happy

IBO is a bowhunting organization that has target events

the problem you have with your braying is that you cite groups that were in many cases created to bash xbows while groups like the IBO don't have an agenda based on greed. the NFAA has done more for bowhunting than any of these anti xbow groups-most of which were not even around when bowhunting was legalized

I will ask you again Source-state succinctly how your hunting with a bow is objectively negatively impacted by what sort of bow others use


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## thesource

No jim -

we cannot get to that answer until you realize that I do not consider your stringgun a bow.

It does not belong in bowseason. YOU do not belong in bowseason if you hunt with it.

You might as well ask me how I would be hurt if you used a MZ, a rifle, or a claymore mine.

The fact is NONE of these things belong in bowseason.


Only BOWS belong in bow season. Your question is inane and irrelevant.


----------



## Jim C

thesource said:


> No jim -
> 
> we cannot get to that answer until you realize that I do not consider your stringgun a bow.
> 
> It does not belong in bowseason. YOU do not belong in bowseason if you hunt with it.
> 
> You might as well ask me how I would be hurt if you used a MZ, a rifle, or a claymore mine.
> 
> The fact is NONE of these things belong in bowseason.
> 
> 
> Only BOWS belong in bow season. Your question is inane and irrelevant.


I realize you aren't trained in logic because that is what we call a circular argument

lets see if you can concentrate on the question, and tell us how the use of a crossbow hurts you objectively-saying its not a bow doesn't cause you harm

try again


----------



## thesource

I feel this is worth repeating:
_
I pulled this off the excalibur website. 

In seven shots...right out of the box...never shot one before...I had just put an arrow within 1" of a 1" spot at 50 yds. I don't think I've ever been as impressed and amazed with anything in my life and just had to share this experience with anyone who's not sure about getting one.

Please, please ... tell me how many brand new BOW hunters you know that can do that in 7 shots and at 50 yards.

To compare crossbows and bows is a sad and sick joke._


----------



## cynic

Is all this just to see who gets the last word in before the lock? I thought the topic of discussion was wheeless bows and primitive xbows in a theoretical season


----------



## oldbhtrnewequip

*Free range*

Nice post!
work is getting in the way of the conversation.

*You said
It’s hard to read between the lines, and I think it would be good to sit down and talk about this face to face. You said you could no longer compete, what does that mean? *

there are other hunters that take exception to my using a crossbow during their bowseason. I'm a 'cheater.' I take exception to that, and need to fix that. Not hunting is not a choice.

I have potential reactions
...one of confrontation "You are wrong...its already a level field"
...one of acceptance "okay you're right but I'm going to self limit."
...one of "what do we have to do to get on a level playing field."

*And who are you competing with, do you feel some need to kill the largest deer, the most deer? *

I'm competing with other hunters. I feel neither the need to kill the largest nor most deer. I feel the need to be perceived as a skillful hunter, by some.
Like being perceived as a hard worker/hard hunter.

I measure the competition in ethics. I do this most basic thing that you can be doing as a human...and do so in a highly ethical way. I know its easy for you to see. 

You've heard of the saying "the one with the most toys wins?" It could be "the one with the most tophies wins" Or it could be "He lived his life by
the highest standards."

I'll pick door #3 FR.

*I don’t see hunting as a competition between hunters, not in that there is a winner and loser. It’s more of a competition between hunter and prey, a continuation of the life and death struggle that has been fought for as long as we have walked this earth. *

I see the competition as a part/portion of hunting. Its a minor portion, to me, but a portion nonetheless. I suggest it is the same for everyone; a portion. Everything about what we do has to be on the up and up, from my perspective of my ethics. Otherwise why am I doing this. If I feel like I'm doing something that isn't ethical because a bunch of other folks question what I'm doing, then I need to rethink what I'm doing. 

*But to put this back in context, how does the different weapons come into play? Well let’s start with the one season any weapon concept. How is the competition between gun hunters and bowhunters fair, or ethical. I submit it is fair and ethical, if there is no intrinsic fairness attributed to the weapon, as was discussed in the fair chase thread. So if fairness and ethical issues are set aside, then what is next, does the gun give the gun hunter a better advantage at killing the biggest deer? Well all evidence says yes, how about the most deer, yes again. Which begs the next question are we competing for the biggest deer? Is there some reward for killing the biggest deer. Again yes, for those that seek fame and money from hunting. We can all agree there are those that do, should we allow them to compete in their own season? Say have a trophy season, or tournament, they do it with fishing.
Or do we just break the season in two, one for bow and one for guns? And if we do, why and how. 
Do we take the number of gun hunter vs bow hunters and give the most hunters the most opportunity? That is pretty much backwards of the way it is now, why? As Ace likes to point out the majority rules, right? Why do we give the bowhunters so much more time in the field, is it solely, as Jim likes to point out, because of harvest predictions? 
So if we agree that bowhunters need more time afield, and do break up the season based on harvest predictions, then, do we break down the seasons even farther, like ML season, shotgun season, handgun season, primitive, traditional, modern, and x-bow season. Sounds good, but then what are we left with? One week each, assuming each season is exclusive, and you must pick your weapon, no two season hunters. But what if a person can hunt with what is ruled a less effective weapon in any and all, less challenging seasons? A self bow hunter would then have the greatest opportunity afield, is that right, should one weapon type be afforded a longer season, based solely on our perception of how hard it is to use? Isn’t the hunter ultimately the deciding factor of how successful they are? How many people do you know that kill a deer every year with a bow, I know a few, how many don’t with a gun, I know a few of those too. So is it really the weapon or is it the hunter. 
I guess what I’m saying in a long winded way is, how and why do we divide the seasons? We need to come to an agreement on that basic issue first before any of this will ever be solved. And if it is totally the predictions of harvest rates, we have already lost as hunters. If what we do as hunters is nothing more then filling the shoes of predators, then we have lost our hunting heritage already, and hunting has become nothing more then another form of target shooting, it’s just that in this case the targets bleed.*

I could go lots of different ways here. Safety first. 
I don't particularly care. I've pretty much laid down my guns and hunt almost nothing but bow. So I get to start early...which I really like...and end late.
We have a long long season. 9/15-1/30. If we let the gun hunters hunt the entire season, then its about bag limits. which is fine too.

In this case, everyone is self limiting, or the sky is the limit. I could go for that. I realize that not everyone else sees it that way. Just don't tell me I'm not being competitive or fair, or call me a cheater. Just because something is a law doesn't make it fair or ethical in everyone's eyes. But we have to have a way of getting along.


----------



## thesource

oldbhtrnewequip said:


> Just don't tell me I'm not being competitive or fair, or call me a cheater. Just because something is a law doesn't make it fair or ethical in everyone's eyes. But we have to have a way of getting along.


This won't just go away.

Bowhunters feel that the crossbow is unfair for physically able to use during bowseason. They also tend to agree that xbows are perfectly fair for the physically challenged to use.

If you cannot understand the reasoning behind these statements, I'm not sure what I can say to help you understand it.

The simple fact is that as radicals scream for the crossbow for everyone in bowseason, it works to the disadvantage of the physically challenged. Instead of seeing an inspirational hunter who will do whatever it takes to keep hunting, they now see a lazy opportunist trying to take advantage of the easiest method to kill a deer.


----------



## doctariAFC

thesource said:


> This won't just go away.
> 
> Bowhunters feel that the crossbow is unfair for physically able to use during bowseason. They also tend to agree that xbows are perfectly fair for the physically challenged to use.
> 
> If you cannot understand the reasoning behind these statements, I'm not sure what I can say to help you understand it.
> 
> The simple fact is that as radicals scream for the crossbow for everyone in bowseason, it works to the disadvantage of the physically challenged. Instead of seeing an inspirational hunter who will do whatever it takes to keep hunting, they now see a lazy opportunist trying to take advantage of the easiest method to kill a deer.


Source, although I do realize and understand this is your position, and it is an understandable and sensible position, we have radicals on both sides of the fence, roadblcoking the chit out of every reasonable compromise that could ever be reached. 

We have the pro side that wants all of the season, for everyone, everywhere. We have the anti side that state no crossbows, not ever, for no one - see NYB and P&Y.

And until we all as hunters can cease the continual flame outs on eachother over opinions, we will have a very difficult time getting to the table, sifting through data and sentiments of all hunters, and determining some form of compromise to afford hunters some additional opportunities, either very limited or unlimited, or somewhere in between.

But the radical live on both sides of the fence. And that, is an indisputable FACT!


----------



## Jim C

doctariAFC said:


> Source, although I do realize and understand this is your position, and it is an understandable and sensible position, we have radicals on both sides of the fence, roadblcoking the chit out of every reasonable compromise that could ever be reached.
> 
> We have the pro side that wants all of the season, for everyone, everywhere. We have the anti side that state no crossbows, not ever, for no one - see NYB and P&Y.
> 
> And until we all as hunters can cease the continual flame outs on eachother over opinions, we will have a very difficult time getting to the table, sifting through data and sentiments of all hunters, and determining some form of compromise to afford hunters some additional opportunities, either very limited or unlimited, or somewhere in between.
> 
> But the radical live on both sides of the fence. And that, is an indisputable FACT!


there is absolutely nothing radical about the pro xbow position. It is based in history-its the same position trad archers had when they wanted an archery only season and its EXACTLY THE SAME position that Tom Jennings and the compound guys had when they wanted to be added to the archery season.

I have yet to hear A single crossbow advocate want to tell source or even trads that can't hit with their bows that they must use crossbows.

Hey source-the first time I shot a compound bow i was shooting clay pigeon sized groups at 20 yards too


----------



## Jim C

thesource said:


> This won't just go away.
> 
> Bowhunters feel that the crossbow is unfair for physically able to use during bowseason. They also tend to agree that xbows are perfectly fair for the physically challenged to use.
> 
> If you cannot understand the reasoning behind these statements, I'm not sure what I can say to help you understand it.
> 
> The simple fact is that as radicals scream for the crossbow for everyone in bowseason, it works to the disadvantage of the physically challenged. Instead of seeing an inspirational hunter who will do whatever it takes to keep hunting, they now see a lazy opportunist trying to take advantage of the easiest method to kill a deer.



who is it unfair to?

the deer? yet there is no evidence of an increased harvest rate

the compound hunters? once again on evidence of increased harvest rate

fragile egos who think that they have to practice more? sorry source THERE IS NOTHING IN THE LAW THAT REQUIRES PEOPLE TO PRACTICE

I like how bigots call people lazy. Maybe I should start a campaign to require proficiency tests-Bye bye tons of trads and more than a few compound guys

its alot harder to justify someone like the source hunting than me from the public's point of view given on my worst day I can outshoot source easily


----------



## thesource

Jim C said:


> I like how bigots call people lazy. Maybe I should start a campaign to require proficiency tests-Bye bye tons of trads and more than a few compound guys


Actually, I'm fine with proficiency tests and think they are a good idea.

You are right when you say their is no law to practice with a bow. But the truth is that real bows act like a filter. To be a succesful bowhunter, you must be able to shoot reasonably well. Widening groups and a respect for their quarry causes most bowhunters to limit their range (well inside the 40 yds you love to throw around) until they improve. Ultimately, the bow forces bowhunters to get better or quit - not many people will hunt year after year with no hope of success.

Your crossbow short circuits all that and removes bowhunting's natural filter. You think its good - I don't. Archery season is about killing a deer with a bow and arrow. Its not supposed to be easy....but it is worth the work.


----------



## cynic

Every one seems to think that the xbow has an unfair advantage over the compound unless there is a handicap. Handicap permits are given to mobility impaired and those unable to draw a bow with 40# draw weight. So how is it fair that someone using compounds at 70lbs fair to the hunter only able to draw 40#'s. How is it fair that some hunters have an ethical shot distance of say 30-35yds as compared to 15-20yds. What is fair..Nothing..Life is not fair. How is it that someone stronger, shooting heavier poundage fair to a youth, woman, or strength impaired? Its not but those using lighter poundage, getting closer and harvesting game in my opinion are better hunters. How is it waiting for a closer shot because of equipment fair? Do we really want to talk about what is fair between hunters when it comes to archery tackle and bowhunting? Could it simply be that those that do shoot the biggest baddest fastest bows on the market just want to keep your advantage over other hunters. Would you agree that a person shooting a 40-50# draw bow is closer to traditional equipment since the distances and speeds are much more alike and that those using them and harvesting game are better hunters. I don't think that fairness in hunting is what you guys are really looking for


----------



## cynic

thesource said:


> Actually, I'm fine with proficiency tests and think they are a good idea.
> 
> You are right when you say their is no law to practice with a bow. But the truth is that real bows act like a filter. To be a succesful bowhunter, you must be able to shoot reasonably well. Widening groups and a respect for their quarry causes most bowhunters to limit their range (well inside the 40 yds you love to throw around) until they improve. Ultimately, the bow forces bowhunters to get better or quit - *not many people will hunt year after year with no hope of success.*
> Your crossbow short circuits all that and removes bowhunting's natural filter. You think its good - I don't. *Archery season is about killing a deer with a bow and arrow*. Its not supposed to be easy....but it is worth the work.


You do..
Archery season is not about killing a deer with a bow and arrow. Archery season is about hunting and taking part in a RECREATIONAL activity while using archery equipment..


----------



## cynic

thesource said:


> Its not supposed to be easy....but it is worth the work.


Simply for compound use without the xbow
Is it not easier to draw on an animal 30yds away as compared to 15-20, since they will not be as intuned to movement and sound, thus making it easier for a hunter able to draw 70lbs to take game? Is it not easier to overcome string jump at 300fps out of 70lb draw than it is shooting in the low 200's out of a 40#. Is it not easier to take game at greater distances because of speed and KE developed by some bows over others. Is it not easier to draw and hold a compound over a Traditional bow. Until there is a limit and a gauge for easy that makes *all* bows equal the ease of use arguement is no more than that, an arguement


----------



## Jim C

thesource said:


> Actually, I'm fine with proficiency tests and think they are a good idea.
> 
> You are right when you say their is no law to practice with a bow. But the truth is that real bows act like a filter. To be a succesful bowhunter, you must be able to shoot reasonably well. Widening groups and a respect for their quarry causes most bowhunters to limit their range (well inside the 40 yds you love to throw around) until they improve. Ultimately, the bow forces bowhunters to get better or quit - not many people will hunt year after year with no hope of success.
> 
> Your crossbow short circuits all that and removes bowhunting's natural filter. You think its good - I don't. Archery season is about killing a deer with a bow and arrow. Its not supposed to be easy....but it is worth the work.


poor source-we finally after 1900 or so posts got him to admit what I have said is true for a couple years-he wants to impose a time cost and a filter to keep out people he doesn't think are worthy. He also, like most of his ilk-confuses hunting skills with shooting skills. He wants wounding rather than killing game. He wants less people enjoying bowhunting

thank you source-all the BS and subterfuge you threw up about your phony near religious ideals was the specious facade I said it was.

BTW source-the compound does the exact same thing that the crossbow does

I close this post in noting that "ease of shooting" has nothing to do with the legislative decisions behind bowhunting-it was the predicted impact on the herds so in addition to the source being selfish, his reasons are not consistent with the LAWS he yaps about constantly


----------



## Jim C

cynic said:


> You do..
> Archery season is not about killing a deer with a bow and arrow. Archery season is about hunting and taking part in a RECREATIONAL activity while using archery equipment..



BINGO-we have a WINNER and we have seen that the source hates the thought of more people engaging in that recreational activity. Its pure selfishness


----------



## thesource

Jim C said:


> He also, like most of his ilk-confuses hunting skills with shooting skills. He wants wounding rather than killing game. He wants less people enjoying bowhunting


Ridiculous....absolutely idiotic. I want hunters to limit their range to ensure killing rather than wounding game, not substitute in a piece of equipment to replace skill and judgement.

What is particularly absurd with this line of reasoning is the thought that a crossbow will reduce wounding. There is NO evidence to support that.

I absolutely do not confuse hunting skills and shooting skills. Getting within short range of a deer is hunting skill - closing the deal is shooting skills. This is EXACTLY why crossbows should not be allowed into bowseason. The closing the deal is what makes bowhunting BOWhunting. Thanks for reiterating my point. That must mean you agree that crossbow hunters are only doing 75% of the work that bowhunters are because they do not need to engage the same shooting skills as a real bowhunter, right?

You are misrepresenting again. I want MORE people to enjoy bowhunting. But I require them to be BOWHUNTERS to do it.




Jim C said:


> BTW source-the compound does the exact same thing that the crossbow does


No Jim - only to the crossbow extremists like you. To us mainstreamers, a compound is a bow....and a crossbow isn't.


----------



## Jim C

MORE circular nonsense from the voice of selfishness. We have seen what you stand for Source-you want to keep others from enjoying a recreational activity for no other reason than pure greed 

there is nothing more to debate source-we know what your motivation is and its sickening


----------



## thesource

Jim C said:


> BINGO-we have a WINNER and we have seen that the source hates the thought of more people engaging in that recreational activity. Its pure selfishness


Another ridiculous misrepresentation of my position.

First - I want more bowhunters in bowseason. I just insist that they actually BE a bowhunter to join us.

Second - I want hunters to enjoy hunting opportunity with a crossbow, too. Just in a season that is more appropriate for the weapon - keep it where it belongs.

So, being the mythbuster that I am, I just took all the air out of your statement. It is clear that I want more hunters and more opportunity. That reveals you for the liar that you are.


----------



## aceoky

Jim C said:


> care to put some money on that idea? you probably don't even know what a york round is.
> 
> *I just don't see much point for archery apartheid. all archery hunters should be uniting rather than dealing with dividing everyone up into little subsections with various groups demanding more rights and more days than others*


VERY well said sir! :cocktail:


----------



## cynic

Jim he just wants to argue. He is sad and no one will let him in their circle, so him and a few others started their own circle to exclude others thus by not allowing others in they have an elite circle (in their mind). In order for him to have conversation he must argue otherwise no one will give him the time of day. He just needs and wants attention.


----------



## Jim C

thesource said:


> Another ridiculous misrepresentation of my position.
> 
> First - I want more bowhunters in bowseason. I just insist that they actually BE a bowhunter to join us.
> 
> Second - I want hunters to enjoy hunting opportunity with a crossbow, too. Just in a season that is more appropriate for the weapon - keep it where it belongs.
> 
> So, being the mythbuster that I am, I just took all the air out of your statement. It is clear that I want more hunters and more opportunity. That reveals you for the liar that you are.



You have been caught-you already admitted you don't want more people enjoying bowhunting

you want filters that do nothing but keep good people out

we need filters to prevent selfish and greedy people from having any say in archery.

we need people who are too stupid to understand what bowhunting is to be excluded from having any way of influencing who gets to hunt

Source-You have been exposed for what you are-AN EXCLUDER and a Selfish greedy elitist

you would rather have less people and you have the audacity to judge peoples' character by what sort of bow they use-that is abhorent and arrogant beyond belief

we all know what motivates you-we need to make sure others aren't infected with this sort of thinking

BBL


----------



## cynic

thesource said:


> Another ridiculous misrepresentation of my position.
> 
> First - I want more bowhunters in bowseason. I just insist that they actually BE a bowhunter to join us.
> What you are failing to see is that it is not determined by you. You have no right to insist that any other individual do anything like you Next it is not "us". Archery season is not a private org. such as P&Y, Everyone is allowed to participate without regards to equipment used.
> Second - I want hunters to enjoy hunting opportunity with a crossbow, too. Just in a season that is more appropriate for the weapon - keep it where it belongs.
> How is a Compound to a Traditional appropriate?
> So, being the mythbuster that I am, I just took all the air out of your statement. It is clear that I want more hunters and more opportunity. That reveals you for the liar that you are.


Liar liar pants on fire..


----------



## cynic

Jim C said:


> You have been caught-you already admitted you don't want more people enjoying bowhunting
> you want filters that do nothing but keep good people out
> we need filters to prevent selfish and greedy people from having any say in archery.
> we need people who are too stupid to understand what bowhunting is to be excluded from having any way of influencing who gets to hunt
> Source-You have been exposed for what you are-AN EXCLUDER and a Selfish greedy elitist
> you would rather have less people and you have the audacity to judge peoples' character by what sort of bow they use-that is abhorent and arrogant beyond belief
> 
> we all know what motivates you-we need to make sure others aren't infected with this sort of thinking
> 
> BBL


Jim I really don't think that it is to keep other archery hunters out of the woods. I believe it is his intention is to keep all hunters out of the woods. It is just taking him longer to get around to the rest. In his mind to get others out he must first stop new from coming in. Once that is done he will be able to move onto the detrements of the compound. Since there are few archery hunters it is easier to over take the smaller army. Can you see his logic now?


----------



## thesource

Jim C said:


> You have been caught-you already admitted you don't want more people enjoying bowhunting
> 
> you want filters that do nothing but keep good people out
> 
> we need filters to prevent selfish and greedy people from having any say in archery.
> 
> we need people who are too stupid to understand what bowhunting is to be excluded from having any way of influencing who gets to hunt
> 
> Source-You have been exposed for what you are-AN EXCLUDER and a Selfish greedy elitist
> 
> you would rather have less people and you have the audacity to judge peoples' character by what sort of bow they use-that is abhorent and arrogant beyond belief
> 
> we all know what motivates you-we need to make sure others aren't infected with this sort of thinking
> 
> BBL


LOL - you are whacked. Where do you come up with this stuff.

I said vertical bows act like filters - and they do.

They weed out those who are not motivated enough to master bowshooting, they keep out only those who are unwilling to commit the effort and energy required to become proficient and bowhunt.

That's a good thing ... its why bowhunting is a "special" season.

Let's be honest - it does not take superhuman strength or god given talents to become a successful bowhunter - you tell us how easy it is every day. All it requires is motivation and dedication.

Therefore it is obvious to everyone that those who will not use a bow to get into bowseason, and wait (and lobby)for a fundamentally different weapon just so they can avoid the effort necessary to become a bowhunter, is clearly lacking in motivation.

Just because these people are too lazy to learn to shoot a bow is not a good enough reason to allow a foreign weapon into bowseason. They should learn to follow the rules (shoot a bow) or stay out of bowseason. 

Your trying to spin my responses into selfishness is laughable. The most grevious example of selfishness is demanding the rules be changed to allow those unwilling to play by the rules an easy way in.


----------



## aceoky

*PSE Mach 4*



Jim C said:


> *some of the PSE bows were well made-the Mach series, *and the X factor ( I have owned several) are well made. The crossbows, though well made, were poorly balanced, loud and a mother to set up. Trackless xbows were designed when servings weren't very durable and you don't have to make a straight track. they are hard to tune and sound like a 22 short going off. Try shooting a clicker on an indoor range with someone using a "foxFire".
> 
> I think PSE bows get a bad rep because unlike Hoyt and Mathews, PSE has an economy line. Many people compare the 200 Nova to say the Sierra-tec or the Mathews ICON or Conquest when in reality they should have compared the 650 dollar PSE bows to the similarly priced Mathews and Hoyt or they should compare the mid level PSE's to the REFLEX brand by Hoyt. Its like comparing a Chevette to a 500 series BMW when you ought to compare the "vette to the Bimmer
> 
> At one time, the PSE Mach Series was the best bow going (early 80's) and they had many of the TOP PAA pros like the Ragsdales and IIRC Eric Hall.


Glad to hear you say that, since I still hunt with a PSE Mach 4! :darkbeer: I've had it for some time, and it's almost a "part of me" glad I'm not alone in that it's a great compound!


----------



## cynic

thesource said:


> LOL - you are whacked. Where do you come up with this stuff.
> 
> I said vertical bows act like filters - and they do.
> 
> They weed out those who are not motivated enough to master bowshooting, they keep out only those who are unwilling to commit the effort and energy required to become proficient and bowhunt.
> So with this, once you become proficient with a compound bow you should be able to choose whatever you want?
> 
> That's a good thing ... its why bowhunting is a "special" season.
> It is not a special season. Hunting with a bow accurs during Archery season or if you mean "special" to you, then what I do or hunt with can not make you feel any less special on your hunt unless the mental picture that I will kill a bigger deer or more deer really bothers you and then it would be purely selfish
> 
> Let's be honest- it does not take superhuman strength or god given talents to become a successful bowhunter - you tell us how easy it is every day. All it requires is motivation and dedication.
> Then why do so many choose high letoff compounds?
> 
> Therefore it is obvious to everyone that those who will not use a bow to get into bowseason,and wait (and lobby)for a fundamentally different weapon just so they can avoid the effort necessary to become a bowhunter, is clearly lacking in motivation
> 
> Again it is ARCHERY SEASON
> The only effort required to become a bowhunter is to take a bow hunting
> What motivates 1 hunter has no bearing on another
> See you look at only the drawing part as fundamental, But wait how did my xbow get drawn? You use the fundamentals of a private organization to justify requirements to non-members
> 
> Just because these people are too lazy to learn to shoot a bow is not a good enough reason to allow a foreign weapon into bowseason.
> The xbow is not foriegn, the compound is.
> 
> They should learn to follow the rules (shoot a bow) or stay out of bowseason.
> Who's rule yours or P&Y
> And again it is ARCHERY SEASON
> 
> Your trying to spin my responses into selfishness is laughable. The most grevious example of selfishness is demanding the rules be changed to allow those unwilling to play by the rules an easy way in.


It is apperent that there is some miscommunication. To want the rule changed does not take anything away from you or what you choose to hunt with.


----------



## aceoky

Free Range said:


> And don’t forget Ace, well he hasn’t actually shot an x-bow, but he sure knows a lot about them. And when repeatedly offered an olive branch and asked to start off with facts he refuses. One can only assume he doesn’t have any facts, or he would be posting them.


Yes twogun, I agree he very well should!

I *have* posted facts, data and stats, for over a year and a half, YOU and a couple others choose to not accept them at face value, and attempt to dispute them with your opinions, after this much time, I've grown weary of doing so, since it is what it is, facts, data and stats, regardless of your opinions.....

I guess, when it got to that point was when I posted the data the Senior Georgia Wildlife Biologist, ran, and you guys confused that data with opinions then tried to "counter" with your own opinions, I have YET to see ANY of you though, post up facts to prove YOUR case....as to why the compound should be allowed, but the crossbow should not.......so when and IF you ever do that, perhaps, I will again post some relevent data, otherwise there is NO reason for my doing so again......WE have the facts and data, plenty of it's posted right here at AT....for anyone to view and read.....what have any of YOU posted, other than rash opinions and how others should hunt in your collective views?? NOTHING.....not one fact or any data to support your side's views, so continue to act like you've not seen any of it, won't matter, and I happen to KNOW you have been shown more than your share, especially since you have NONE of YOUR own to offer up!

YOU say that over 50% of Ohio's archers use the crossbow, and that's "dillution", where is YOUR data to prove there would be many archers left in Ohio, without the crossbow??? 
.
That IS what I thought, you don't have it, what WE have IS the number of archers in Ohio, is at least "somewhat stable" when in MANY other states that IS NOT the case! YOUR own argument is going against you,since even YOUR own data serves to only harm your few's position that much more!

There is simply NO point in providing data, facts and stats to those who value their own opinions over the "experts" in their fields.....a waste of time, I'm not willing to partake in any longer, especially while things are as they have been....

That doesn't by any stretch mean it doesn't exist or we don't have it, WE do....and have; and YOU are well aware of that......just as the "Myths and Facts" have "bitten you" yet again......or have you missed all of that??? :wink:


----------



## Free Range

> I have posted facts, data and stats, for over a year and a half, YOU and a couple others choose to not accept them at face value,


There is no such thing as “face Value” with facts, they either mean something or they don’t. Actually you meant “accept them as how you interpret them” didn’t you?



> YOU say that over 50% of Ohio's archers use the crossbow, and that's "dillution", where is YOUR data to prove there would be many archers left in Ohio, without the crossbow???


Now you have completely lost it, you want me to go back in time, stop the x-bow from becoming legal then show that there are still bow hunters in Ohio??? Ace you have watched too many Stare Trek movies. 



> That doesn't by any stretch mean it doesn't exist or we don't have it, WE do....and have; and YOU are well aware of that......just as the "Myths and Facts" have "bitten you" yet again......or have you missed all of that???


It can only mean one thing, if you are unwilling to post, I’m asking for the 6th time now, then there must not be any. 

Fact, there are bowhunters in states without x-bows, fact there are less then ½ of hunters in Ohio using a bow during bow season. Fact, many have lost the quality time afield they use to have because of the x-bow, fact at least one state has one season any weapon, Opinion I thinks it’s because of the x-bow. Fact the x-bow and bow were made illegal in England at the same time, Opinion, I think it was because of the x-bow. Fact there was no controversy over x-bow expansion before your side started pushing for inclusion, ergo, you caused the division. 

Come on buddy boy, lets see your so called facts.


----------



## aceoky

*More FR opinions stated AS fact.....but not*

fact there are less then ½ of hunters in Ohio using a bow during bow season. 

Nope that is *only your opinion*.....Ohio says they're legal archery hunters, that is the FACT of the matter! YOU disagree , what else is new? YOU spouting off your opinion and calling it "fact" doesn't make it so....fwiw

Now you have completely lost it, you want me to go back in time, stop the x-bow from becoming legal then show that there are still bow hunters in Ohio??? Ace you have watched too many Stare Trek movies

That's just too absurd to even comment on...at all btw..YOU're "all about data, and facts according to YOU alone that is.....but you never seem to have *any*

Fact, many have lost the quality time afield they use to have because of the x-bow, 

NOPE NOT a FACT: if it is prove it! NOT ONE single state that I'm aware of has made the crossbow *mandatory*IF they have please post up the facts and at least a link we can confirm this "fact" with??? Since no one is forced to use one, that is not only NOT fact, it's a "silly" opinion at best! Everyone can still, hunt with any bow they want to.......as we all are very well aware.....nice try, but no matter how badly you don't like it your opinions are not, nor do they replace actual facts and data....period Please show us the data that confirms this "fact' of yours, with a link to verify it......IF you can...

Fact there was no controversy over x-bow expansion before your side started pushing for inclusion, ergo, you caused the division.

NOPE yet again YOUR opinion, based upon "faulty logic" at best........

Using YOUR logic then the "whole divison mess" started when Fred Bear, asked for and proved the reasons for the Archery seasons........then again, when the compound folks asked to be included.......NOW the crossbow folks, so in your "logic" every single bowhunter IS the cause, since at one time or another THEY ALL DID THE SAME EXACT THING!!! 

NOW there you go....."buddy boy", show us some of YOUR facts.....NOT opinions.......by now you should well know the difference; but obvious from above that doesn't stop you from trying to "spin" the difference......

FACTS are proven by data, NOT opinions......."of what is or isn't a bow", the State of Ohio on the Link Marvin posted says a crossbow IS a bow mounted on a stock.......see, another opinion, but from a more relaiable source than you "buddy boy".......So guess we'd have to believe them, after all, as you like to say, they've been there for so long....

To most that *fact* alone Proves your "fears" are not warrented.....:darkbeer:


----------



## doctariAFC

I have to agree with cynic. He hit the nail squarely on the head that archery season was started for hunters to have an additional recreational opportunity. The history of that factual statement is abundantly available.


----------



## thesource

I don't have a problem with that Doc, and I'm on the record as stating that crossbowers should have their opportunities, too.

But where is it written that they need to overlap bowhunters' opportunity? Why not their own season?

Bowhunters deserve our time and space to enjoy our opportunities as well.


----------



## cynic

thesource said:


> I don't have a problem with that Doc, and I'm on the record as stating that crossbowers should have their opportunities, too.
> 
> But where is it written that they need to overlap bowhunters' opportunity? Why not their own season?
> 
> Bowhunters deserve our time and space to enjoy our opportunities as well.


Please show how someone else using a xbow, hunting no closer than anyone using a vertical bow affects you individually. Are you so worried about what the next guy does that you can not concentrate on what you are there for and enjoy YOUR time participating in a recreational activity..


----------



## thesource

cynic said:


> Please show how someone else using a xbow, hunting no closer than anyone using a vertical bow affects you individually. Are you so worried about what the next guy does that you can not concentrate on why you are there for and enjoy YOUR time participating in a recreational activity..


Cynic - understand this. I do not believe that crossbows belong in bow season.

I think the fundamental differences in operation dictate a different season.

Think black powder and centerfire if you are having a hard time comprehending.


----------



## cynic

thesource said:


> Here's a great example why xbows should have their own season ...
> 
> I pulled this off the excalibur website.
> 
> _In seven shots...right out of the box...never shot one before...I had just put an arrow within 1" of a 1" spot at 50 yds. I don't think I've ever been as impressed and amazed with anything in my life and just had to share this experience with anyone who's not sure about getting one._
> 
> Please, please ... tell me how many brand new BOW hunters you know that can do that in 7 shots and at 50 yards.
> 
> To compare crossbows and bows is a sad and sick joke.


Mathews commercial boasts innovation after innovation after innovation Martin boasts the most accurate bow in the world. With all these innovations aren't the manufacturers themselves changing the face of archery and the tradition? Aren't all of these new innovations by all of the manufacturers only serving to make shooting a bow easier for those too lazy or that don't have the time or motivation to discipline themselve to learn to shoot instinctively with a recurve but yet some would defend them as saving the bowhunting tradition.


----------



## thesource

cynic said:


> Mathews commercial boasts innovation after innovation after innovation Martin boasts the most accurate bow in the world. With all these innovations aren't the manufacturers themselves changing the face of archery and the tradition? Aren't all of these new innovations by all of the manufacturers only serving to make shooting a bow easier for those too lazy or that don't have the time or motivation to discipline themselve to learn to shoot instinctively with a recurve but yet some would defend them as saving the bowhunting tradition.



Even if what you say were true - wouldn't that _weaken _the case for crossbows?

After all, if compounds are SO easy - who needs a crossbow?


----------



## cynic

thesource said:


> Cynic - understand this. I do not believe that crossbows belong in bow season.
> 
> I think the fundamental differences in operation dictate a different season.
> 
> Think black powder and centerfire if you are having a hard time comprehending.


Source understand THIS
STRING propulsion curve limbs arrow..Operation, the operation is the same the release and grip is different..operation does not dictate season, Type of weapon does..

Black powder and centerfire both use an internally chambered explosion


----------



## cynic

thesource said:


> Even if what you say were true - wouldn't that _weaken _the case for crossbows?
> 
> After all, if compounds are SO easy - who needs a crossbow?


If compounds have gotten so easy why not crossbows?


----------



## cynic

thesource said:


> Even if what you say were true - wouldn't that _weaken _the case for crossbows?
> 
> After all, if compounds are SO easy - who needs a crossbow?


No one needs to hunt. Individuals that hunt choose to, they don't do it because they need to so no one NEEDS a compound or a crossbow No one needs to participate in any recreational activity but many choose to and therefore when making the choice to particpate they should have the right to choose for themselve as to which archery equipment they use.


----------



## thesource

I will repeat what I have said before....

70% of those polled on AT do NOT believe that crossbows are archery equipment.

You are an extremist who is trying to force your definition of archery on everyone else.

Come back to us - join the mainstream.

By the way, MZ are guns, yet they have a special season. Those who "choose" centerfires do not get to participate. Why, do you figure, is that OK yet crossbows must be forced into bowseasons?


----------



## Free Range

> Nope that is only your opinion.....Ohio says they're legal archery hunters, that is the FACT of the matter! YOU disagree , what else is new? YOU spouting off your opinion and calling it "fact" doesn't make it so....fwiw


Not my opinion, the ODNR put out those facts, look it up.



> Using YOUR logic then the "whole divison mess" started when Fred Bear, asked for and proved the reasons for the Archery seasons........then again, when the compound folks asked to be included.......NOW the crossbow folks, so in your "logic" every single bowhunter IS the cause, since at one time or another THEY ALL DID THE SAME EXACT THING!!!


Wrong again, there was no division over x-bows when Fred Bear asked for, or when the compounds asked for. You really need to learn how to read. 



> FACTS are proven by data, NOT opinions......."of what is or isn't a bow", the State of Ohio on the Link Marvin posted says a crossbow IS a bow mounted on a stock.......see, another opinion, but from a more relaiable source than you "buddy boy".......So guess we'd have to believe them, after all, as you like to say, they've been there for so long....


Correct, facts as you define them are backed by data. So, let’s see the data showing how many people over 55 used a x-bow this last year that did not hunt (at all last year)? How many women hunted this year with a x-bow that didn’t hunt last year at all? How many children hunted with a x-bow this year that didn’t hunt last year, at all? How many just regular Joes, hunted this year that didn’t hunt last year, at all, because of the x-bow???? Ace, if you are going to back yourself into a corner you had better have an escape plan.


----------



## cynic

thesource said:


> I will repeat what I have said before....
> 
> 70% of those polled on AT do NOT believe that crossbows are archery equipment.
> 
> You are an extremist who is trying to force your definition of archery on everyone else.
> 
> Come back to us - join the mainstream.
> 
> By the way, MZ are guns, yet they have a special season. Those who "choose" centerfires do not get to participate. Why, do you figure, is that OK yet crossbows must be forced into bowseasons?


Was this something you just figured out "By the way, MZ are guns" Now if you could just figure out that a crossbow is a bow. You know what is even funnier is that here in Florida those that choose a bow do not get to participate either but the season only last 3-8 days depending on zone. really don't understand how archery gets a month ML only a week and centerfire months nor do I understand why archery gets an exclusive but also gets included in general gun if not allowed in ML
MUZZLELOADING GUN SEASON
(Wildlife management area regulations can differ)MUZZLELOADING GUN 

Season Dates: South Zone, Oct. 15-23; Central Zone, Oct. 29-Nov. 6; Northwest Zone, Nov. 18-20.

Hunting Methods: Only muzzleloading guns may be used. For hunting deer, muzzleloading guns firing single bullets must be at least .40-caliber; muzzleloading guns firing two or more balls must be 20-gauge or larger


----------



## cynic

Free Range said:


> Correct, facts as you define them are backed by data. So, let’s see the data showing how many people over 55 used a x-bow this last year that did not hunt (at all last year)? How many women hunted this year with a x-bow that didn’t hunt last year at all? How many children hunted with a x-bow this year that didn’t hunt last year, at all? How many just regular Joes, hunted this year that didn’t hunt last year, at all, because of the x-bow???? Ace, if you are going to back yourself into a corner you had better have an escape plan.


Better yet show facts as to how someone else using a xbow will negatively affect your or anyone elses individual hunt. Also show how it will be a detrement to the deer herd. Show how it will hurt the hunting populus


----------



## cynic

thesource said:


> By the way, MZ are guns, yet they have a special season. Those who "choose" centerfires do not get to participate. Why, do you figure, is that OK yet crossbows must be forced into bowseasons?


Why was it okay for the compound to be forced into archery season that was in its origin designed for the Traditional archer? The reason that they should be included not "forced" is because it is archery season not bow season and during archery season you use archery equipment..During ML you use a ML unless you choose a different piece of equipment allowed to legally take game and so on..Maybe this will help you to understand how and why things work the way they do


----------



## ban_t

thesource said:


> Even if what you say were true - wouldn't that _weaken _the case for crossbows?
> 
> After all, if compounds are SO easy - who needs a crossbow?


 I do not make many post's but I have gone thru this and just have too say 
" What the heck is your problem Source" 
I have seen many forms of agrument but yours is just plain stupid. Read your own words and see for yourself.:jeez: 
Your only piont is you do not want in Bow / Archery season and in your own words a Crossbow. Since Compounds are so easy. 
Then remember M.L. vs Center Hmmmmmmmm Let's see maybe multipule fireing? 

Really as a outside reader give me something too work with here and that goes for all those who hate, dislike, xbows, stringguns, whatever you want too call them. 
They are all still one shot, one kill. to me it is like some who like Mathews vs Hoyt. It's not better it's just better for me. 

It's not the weapon you choose, It's the values you hold in hunting. 

So Source give me the straight scoop. What scares you about the weapon. 
Just for your sake I do not even own a Xbow or even shot one but would like too hunt with it. I also know it is a Bow and it is a Weapon used for Archery. 
I have also Looked at how it shoots. So the Only Advantage Vs my 85% lazy hunter bow (that I can hold for 35 mins vs my 65% letofff 20min) is it is already cocked. 

Not a great Advanage too me but think it would be different Since i have mastered a COMPOUND BOW


----------



## thesource

cynic said:


> Was this something you just figured out "By the way, MZ are guns" Now if you could just figure out that a crossbow is a bow.


Somebody could use a little extra wattage.

Yes .... I realize that MZ are guns. But the analogy is that they are "special" enough to warrant their own season from all guns.

Let's see if you can figure out the rest on your own .... duh.


----------



## thesource

ban_t said:


> So Source give me the straight scoop. What scares you about the weapon.
> Just for your sake I do not even own a Xbow or even shot one but would like too hunt with it. I also know it is a Bow and it is a Weapon used for Archery.
> I have also Looked at how it shoots. So the Only Advantage Vs my 85% lazy hunter bow (that I can hold for 35 mins vs my 65% letofff 20min) is it is already cocked.


LOL - tell me WHY you would like to hunt with an xbow. I already know why - you want the advantage, its why you have a liberty, right? 

And I think you are fibbing - I'll bet you can't hold your bow out undrawn for 35 mins let alone drawn for that long.

Just another crossbow wannabe.


----------



## ban_t

SORRY NOT A WANNA BE I am know a XBOW GUY 
I must have too add you helped me in decideing to get a xbow. Thanks Thru your lack of intell you sold me. Now I can just sit and shoot. Thanks Source thru your information that you brought out to us wanna-bees 

I know just another lazy hunter in your book sorry if it disapoints but we live in this country by chioce and it's my chioce to bring Xbows into the Archery season. since my mind is not as closed as yours
Thanks again 
Source you have been helpful in this matter


----------



## thesource

Uhhhh ....

Hate to tell you this but stringguns aren't legal in early archery in Indiana.

Planning on breaking the law?


----------



## thesource

Looks like Doug is back....again.


----------



## thesource

Doug - 

if you had bother to read the previous thread that spawned this you would understand the connection to crossbows.


----------



## Jim C

thesource said:


> I will repeat what I have said before....
> 
> 70% of those polled on AT do NOT believe that crossbows are archery equipment.
> 
> You are an extremist who is trying to force your definition of archery on everyone else.
> 
> Come back to us - join the mainstream.
> 
> By the way, MZ are guns, yet they have a special season. Those who "choose" centerfires do not get to participate. Why, do you figure, is that OK yet crossbows must be forced into bowseasons?


more stupidity-how many people voted? LOL

you are the extremist because mental issues drive your bs


----------



## thesource

hmmmmmmmm ...

I was thinking the same about you.

The fact is that more states, more provinces, more bowhunting organizations, and more hunters agree with me...

Yep - you're the radical, after all.


----------



## Jim C

thesource said:


> hmmmmmmmm ...
> 
> I was thinking the same about you.
> 
> The fact is that more states, more provinces, more bowhunting organizations, and more hunters agree with me...
> 
> Yep - you're the radical, after all.



and you still are arguing based on no logic which is to be expected. I am not a radical because crossbows are following the same pattern compounds did

what argument will you have when xbows are allowed in most states source? 

you sound like anti abortionists circa 1972-abortion is bad because its not legal

a year later it was-bye bye argument

we realize you have mental issues source

we realize your self esteem is tied to your own self image as a bowhunter

we realize that you think crossbows have a deleterious impact on your own self esteem


----------



## thesource

Jim C said:


> you sound like anti abortionists circa 1972-abortion is bad because its not legal


Are you saying they were wrong?

Your liberal activism is leaking out again, Jim.

LOL.


----------



## thesource

Jim C said:


> we realize you have mental issues source
> 
> we realize your self esteem is tied to your own self image as a bowhunter
> 
> we realize that you think crossbows have a deleterious impact on your own self esteem


Well, I'll be the first to admit I am not a psychologist.

But I don't think your diagnosis is correct, Dr. Jim.

My self esteem is not tied to bowhunting, but it is clearly part of my identity.

I am a bowhunter.

And, yes, I do not want my identity polluted by someone elses idea of what a bowhunter might be (read that as a crossbower.)

There are bowhunters and there are crossbowers - as we see here, they are OBVIOUSLY not the same.

Seek your own identity. Be proud that you are a crossbower. Your claiming to be a bowhunter is no different than an everyday sailor coveting the title of SEAL.....nothing but wishful thinking.


----------



## Jim C

thesource said:


> Are you saying they were wrong?
> 
> Your liberal activism is leaking out again, Jim.
> 
> LOL.


I guess you are too disturbed to understand an analogy and yes under some circumstances I think abortion ought to be legal. many libertarians do.

What is it about freedom that disturbs you so much? I read studies about criminal behaviour frequently. People with self esteem issues often seek external sources of control. is this ringing a bell in your mind?


----------



## Jim C

thesource said:


> Well, I'll be the first to admit I am not a psychologist.
> 
> But I don't think your diagnosis is correct, Dr. Jim.
> 
> My self esteem is not tied to bowhunting, but it is clearly part of my identity.
> 
> I am a bowhunter.
> 
> And, yes, I do not want my identity polluted by someone elses idea of what a bowhunter might be (read that as a crossbower.)
> 
> There are bowhunters and there are crossbowers - as we see here, they are OBVIOUSLY not the same.
> 
> Seek your own identity. Be proud that you are a crossbower. Your claiming to be a bowhunter is no different than a sailor coveting the title of SEAL.


bowhunters are bowhunters=only those with serious problems want to divide bowhunters or call on large group of them lazy as you have done

Here is the issue I know you will avoid-when xbowhunters become the dominant bowhunting group-tell us why they should not lobby to ban you from hunting in their season


----------



## thesource

Jim C said:


> Here is the issue I know you will avoid-when xbowhunters become the dominant bowhunting group-tell us why they should not lobby to ban you from hunting in their season


I expect nothing less, based on the typically classless group that have identified themselves as crossbow hunters. It is clear to me they have absolutely NO interest in protecting bowhunters or bowhunting, and are in this only for themselves.


----------



## Jim C

thesource said:


> I expect nothing less, based on the typically classless group that have identified themselves as crossbow hunters. It is clear to me they have absolutely NO interest in protecting bowhunters or bowhunting, and are in this only for themselves.



Here is the problem with your "thinking" source

1) if archers want a special season-that's ok

2) if compounds want in on that season-that's ok

3) if crossbows want the same thing compounds did they are

a) ruining bowhunting

b) require Poop and Dung to launch a jihad against them

c) have ill individuals claim that xbows are greedy


now we have a second manifestation of the "issues"

IF compound archers-once having joined the club-try to prevent the similar crossbows from hunting its for the GOOD OF BOWHUNTING rather than what it really is-hateful greed

if on the other hand we were to give you a dose of your own medicine-you claim its bad for bowhunting

you bray about current state laws and numbers- since that is what you base your arguments (pardon me-your pretextual facades ) on, then why would it be unfair if a crossbow majority decided to give you and your like minded ilk the boot

after all, I think people like you are probably the ones who wound animals since I doubt you even know how to shoot

why should my hunting rights be jeopardized by your lack of skill-better to give you the boot then to have accurate crossbow archers lumped into a group with the wounders in the eyes of the public

(see Source-I can make a more compelling argument why its in my interest to give you the boot)


----------



## thesource

Jim C said:


> after all, I think people like you are probably the ones who wound animals since I doubt you even know how to shoot
> 
> why should my hunting rights be jeopardized by your lack of skill-better to give you the boot then to have accurate crossbow archers lumped into a group with the wounders in the eyes of the public
> 
> (see Source-I can make a more compelling argument why its in my interest to give you the boot)


Except its all based on fiction, and noone will buy it.

1) Prove that "people like me are probably the ones who wound animals"
2) "in the eyes of the public" crossbows are evil weapons used by cheaters.\

By the way, do you want to compare personal harvest rates, Jim? I'm sitting at 100% after 22 years, and therfore cannot be dethroned. That leaves you as the wounding champion of our twosome....

That is so much more important to us bowhunters than your silly archery scores...


----------



## Jim C

thesource said:


> Except its all based on fiction, and noone will buy it.
> 
> 1) Prove that "people like me are probably the ones who wound animals"
> 2) "in the eyes of the public" crossbows are evil weapons used by cheaters.\
> 
> By the way, do you want to compare personal harvest rates, Jim? I'm sitting at 100% after 22 years, and therfore cannot be dethroned. That leaves you as the wounding champion of our twosome....
> 
> That is so much more important to us bowhunters than your silly archery scores...



there is not a single person on this forum who has admitted to knowing you source-not a single person who can vouch for you being a bowhunter. 

The president of the NAA and Ann Hoyt can vouch for me

We have no idea if you are telling the truth and given your documented issues, I think you are lying

you lie about xbow archers being lazy-just like trads, some are, most are not


----------



## thesource

:yawn:
:yawn: 
:yawn:
:yawn:



You've got issues, dude.


----------



## Jim C

thesource said:


> :yawn:
> :yawn:
> :yawn:
> :yawn:
> 
> 
> 
> You've got issues, dude.


Now that is truly funny:wink:


----------



## aceoky

Free Range said:


> Not my opinion, the ODNR put out those facts, look it up.
> 
> REALLY? You look it up........and then tell us ALL that OHIO does NOT allow the crossbow for the ENTIRE ARCHERY season......'nuff said......
> 
> Since WE all KNOW they do, what exatly was your point??
> 
> Again YOUR opinion and btw it's not worth your time to type even IF you type as fast as I do.....fwiw
> 
> 
> 
> Wrong again, there was no division over x-bows when Fred Bear asked for, or when the compounds asked for. You really need to learn how to read.
> 
> NEVER did I say it WAS THEN ABOUT CROSSBOWS.......you're 'stretching to try to prove something here........WE are speaking of "division " here..........NO division when Fred spoke....PROVE that ........IF you can........THEN prove there was NO division when SOME wanted compounds....allowed.........should be VERY INTERESTING........to say the least...once again YOU prove what you and your side have NO clue about..........nothing new though.....
> 
> 
> YOU keep trying to say that crossbows and those who want them........doing what EVERY other group of archers has in FACT done to get what WE now have........IS causing the division........again *I* give YOU facts...........YOU say I don't give any........everyone can see that *I* DO ........where are YOURS???
> 
> YOU and YOUR "group" had best accept the FACT that NO archery season would NOW exist had it not been for exactly what WE are now doing...........YOU don't have to "like it", but to "paint' it as "causing divsion" only shows how "ignorant' YOU and YOURS are to the FACTS......of the matter........:darkbeer:
> 
> 
> Correct, facts as you define them are backed by data. So, let’s see the data showing how many people over 55 used a x-bow this last year that did not hunt (at all last year)?
> 
> 
> WHEN did *I* ever put an "age" on the ones who wanted to continue to bowhunt and NO longer could??? YOU have done so ........*I* have NOT......to me, IF they want to continue and can not......that's good enough for ME.....sorry YOU and yours don't see it that way........I'm NOT surprised though, since YOU like to say so often "Do it MY way, or NOT at all....
> 
> 
> 
> How many women hunted this year with a x-bow that didn’t hunt last year at all?
> 
> 
> Better IDEA, YOU show me how many did NOT...........Oh YOU can't.........see??? Why not.......the data is NOT compiled for that YET.........I told YOU that myslef.......how soon either YOU forget......OR choose to try to make a non-valid point IF one did......that IS a "start" IF YOU actually care about what YOU say you do.......period..
> 
> How many children hunted with a x-bow this year that didn’t hunt last year, at all?
> 
> AGain, don't know and I told YOU that, however Marvin(you know your side ) already admitted HE started with a crossbow and "advanced", pretty much KILL YOUR views doesn't it??
> 
> How many just regular Joes, hunted this year that didn’t hunt last year, at all, because of the x-bow????
> 
> Better idea YOU show me NONE did, YOU are so certain that I'm wrong........thus the "burden of proof" falls 100% on YOU.......I'm of this "idea".........IF we got only ten more.........it's worth it.....much better than losing archery hunters........espceially over THEIR choice of weapon.......YOU don't agree.......at what number do YOU conceed, that as a group losing OUR OWN it "matters"??? Still YOU and a FEW MORE like YOU would rather lose it all.......than accept other hunter's choice.........it' VERY obvious who and WHAT opinion is causing the "division" and try as you might it's NOT my view.........as I stated earlier, it's YOU and YOUR "little group" that "think' you're "better" or "entitled" to something NONE of you or your "litle group" did ANYTHING to "earn" .....much less are YOU entitled...........but YOU few think YOU should be in a posistion to tell the rest of us........ALL what IS and is NOT allowed...........but..........based upon what???????? OH Nothing........that Is what I thought...btw
> 
> 
> Ace, if you are going to back yourself into a corner you had better have an escape plan.



AS should YOU and YOURS.......however, YOU and YOURS have YET to show ANYONE what YOU lose, or what YOU give up by allowing another choice......WE have shown the FACTS....... YOU and YOURS lose NOTHING........you're as free as you ever were to use exactly what YOU all want to use.............SO the FACT is...........YOU and YOURS ONLY are willing to "share" on YOUR terms........NOT good enough!! YOU and yours have done nothing.....to deserve to tell any other hunters anything, and the FACT that to YOU ......WHO pays the huge majority of the bills in your "little opinion" means nothing proves not only how small you are, but what liittle YOU know........he who has the gold MAKES the rules........FR........learn it NOW or later won't matter

I've told YOU for a year and a half.........STOP attacking gun hunters.........THEY pay the bills in EVERY state I've checked.......THEY ARE HUNTERS JUST AS WE ARE!!

YOUR RESPONSE .............as everyone has seen here, for themselve.........IS to "paint ME" as a "gun hunter"...........so be it.....I stand by my "Reloaders Haul Brass".......but gun hunters pay the billls...........I'm NOT losing YOU and yours ARE.......every time you try that.......live and learn..............or don't.......will not matter ........in the long run..........


----------



## aceoky

Jim C said:


> there is not a single person on this forum who has admitted to knowing you source-not a single person who can vouch for you being a bowhunter.
> 
> The president of the NAA and Ann Hoyt can vouch for me
> 
> We have no idea if you are telling the truth and given your documented issues, I think you are lying
> 
> you lie about xbow archers being lazy-just like trads, some are, most are not


*I* have HIM on another fourm,stating that he's ONLY been doing this "for 

WELL here IS HIS quote........

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by David J:
I have been a die hard dedicated bow hunter for over 40 years and I have killed a lot of deer with my bow. Over the last few years I've seen a lot of trends that I don't like. The loss of bow hunters is the biggest worry I have. If our population drops too far it makes it easy for the DNR's and WRA's to fill the time we have in the field with some type of firearms hunting. 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Well, David, I have been a die hard dedicated bow hunter *for just over half that long*. But it has been long enough to teach me tht bowhunting is "it", that nothing else comes close.


I HAVE to wonder why HE didn't "brag" then about his "so called 100% success rate??) 

Anyone can CLEARLY see FOR that to be TRUE........from the very beginning of HIS starting archery hunting he's NEVER "not killed"......any BOWHUNTER here belive that???

:darkbeer: 

BTW FR "you're next".....you've been warned......keep calling me a "liar", and hoping to finally catch me in one after 18 months + is a "lose -lose" I would have figured you'd know tthat by now.......oh well........no "skin off me" .....

It is, what it "IS"........truth.......facts.........live and LEARN


----------



## oldbhtrnewequip

*Source*

*You said
What is your opinion? Are these hunting tools the same? Do you not see the advantage that the physically able would have if using a crossbow?*

If I was ground hunting...for sure there would be some advantages, but other disadvantages at the same time. I don't know if they're the same until I try one. I perceive advantages and disadvantages. One of my very first conversations was with Randy discussing tree clearance etc. I've got a feeling that I'm not going to be shooting anything on the other side of the tree so I will get a field of fire abotu 180 degrees vs. 270. That'll have a
negative impact for sure. 

I don't know that I buy off on the whole 'physically able' thing or not. I'm pretty sure that I don't. I don't think that someone should have to be physically disabled to use one. 

I think there will be advantages in consistency at distance, for the novice. No real doubt of that in my mind. I think things will start to even up at the 40 yard mark, based on practice for both compounds and crossbows. I still haven't shot one (crossbow)

*You are seeking legitimacy for your crossbow use, but I do not think you will find it with across the board crossbow legalization. * 

No doubt..I am seeking legitimacy. I will find it with some people.

I don't know about acheiving legitimacy from a majority of bowhunters though. There's a lot of prejudice. We have this hazy line regarding ethical hunting and hunting laws. I think that people generally perceive something that is legal as ethical, and vice versa. That's when it comes to man vs. deer.
That creates legitimacy.

I think that people see 'fair' (man-man) when everyone is playing by the same rules. I think we get really confused when we talk about ethics in the sense of fairness between hunters. I do see a tremendous difference between longbows and recurves and compounds. I know there is. I've shot many years with both. Look...I'm not a target hunter and don't belong to any of these organizations. I jjust practice and bow hunt. 

If folks want to be self limiting....then go for it. If folks want everyone to be self limiting for an extended time during bow season...then I've got problems with that. 

When folks want to limit other hunters, like we have in this case, then its either in name of fairness to other hunters, or to the deer. 

Like I said before, its either fair or not fair to the deer regardless of what date it is on my calendar. So its about fairness between hunters. If we want to limit others, in this particular sport, during a season, then its about fairness.


I don't ever expect to receive legitimacy from some hunters. There will be those who will look at me and say "hmmmm....disabled..I don't think so"

*Most bowhunters are inspired by those who are challenged and yet still find ways to continue to hunt.* 

I really don't want anyone looking either up at me, or down at me. Well looking up a little bit  because I'm a good hunter, but not because I'm battling problems. Just let me be one of the guys. I don't want to be perceived as disabled. Just telling the truth. 

*The opposite reaction occurs when folks are perceived to be taking the easy way out. Full legalization of the crossbow will make the perception worse, not better.*

Bob

I never spent much time thinking about crossbows til I had to. I never thought they were either good or bad. I had no idea that there was this level of discontent over seasons and use. 

Back to topic....how do we figure out how we can make them equal...at least for a little bit of the season so everyone can be on the same playing field?


----------



## twogun

> 2) "in the eyes of the public" crossbows are evil weapons used by cheaters.\


You *can not* support this. This is what you want and seek. It's part of your anti-crossbow agenda to convince "the public" of this, and I'm sure you have been successful to some degree which is disgraceful. The reality is that most of "the public" outside of bowhunting don't know the first thing about crossbows. In general, "the public" is ignorant and probobly doesn't much care. The part of "the public" who hear your warped view of things might be easily swayed, but if they were reasonable objective folks and got both sides of the issue, they would probobly think it's no big deal. You make these wild generalizations that can't be backed with anything other than *extremely limited*, very subjective personal experience. Talk about spin.


----------



## thesource

aceoky said:


> Anyone can CLEARLY see FOR that to be TRUE........from the very beginning of HIS starting archery hunting he's NEVER "not killed"......any BOWHUNTER here belive that???


Actually, here in NY, we have been allowed as many as 7 legal deer a year. When I hunted in NC, I was allowed 5 deer a year. I also live fairly close to PA and used to hunt in that state, too. 

There have indeed been seasons when I have not killed one with a bow.... 

Perhaps you need some clarification - I'm talking about kill % - 100% means I have always killed what I shot it, never wounded and lost any.

It is a goal that every hunter should strive for, and it counts for a lot more to a bowhunter than the score from some irrelevant archery tournament.


----------



## thesource

oldbhtrnewequip said:


> When folks want to limit other hunters, like we have in this case, then its either in name of fairness to other hunters, or to the deer.
> 
> Like I said before, its either fair or not fair to the deer regardless of what date it is on my calendar. So its about fairness between hunters. If we want to limit others, in this particular sport, during a season, then its about fairness.


That's certainly part of it, but I feel it can still be unfair to both hunters and deer depending on the calendar.

I would expect everyone to consider it unfair to shoot deer during archery season with a rifle. It violates the spirit of bowhunting and it would be unfair to other hunters who are following the existing rules and using a bow. But these things need to be looked at in the larger context of special seasons.

Now comes the hard part - as we slide the intruding weapons down on the scale of range,effectiveness, ease of use we will have different people drawing their lines of separation at different places to be allowed into special seasons.

Many agree that MZ deserve a special seaon, but some will argue that only sidelock's and flintlock's should.

Some will say nothing that goes boom, some will argue that flintlock's are more primitive than compounds or modern crossbows and should be allowed in early seasons.

Some argue that crossbows are bows and belong in archery season, some will say compounds are the last eligible weapon.

Some believe that only traditional gear should be allowed.

Its pretty clear that no matter where the line gets drawn, some number of people are going to feel it was an unfair division.

And we will ALWAYS have to limit hunters in one manner or another to specific seasons. The question is not IF we draw the line, its WHERE do we draw the line.


----------



## thesource

twogun said:


> You *can not* support this. This is what you want and seek. It's part of your anti-crossbow agenda to convince "the public" of this, and I'm sure you have been successful to some degree which is disgraceful. The reality is that most of "the public" outside of bowhunting don't know the first thing about crossbows. In general, "the public" is ignorant and probobly doesn't much care. The part of "the public" who hear your warped view of things might be easily swayed, but if they were reasonable objective folks and got both sides of the issue, they would probobly think it's no big deal. You make these wild generalizations that can't be backed with anything other than *extremely limited*, very subjective personal experience. Talk about spin.



Your slanderous statement that I try to "convince the public" of this "to further my anticrossbow agenda" aside, it has been my experience that what I said is true - the public has a negative connotation of crossbows and that is another reason I do not want them associated with bows.

Now back to your personal attack .....

What you call spin I consider conviction. I have never said that crossbows or crossbowers are evil, in fact I support there use in seasons other than bowseason. 

I do consider them cheating in bowseason, and I find it appalling that crossbowers refer to their equipment as "bows" and themselves as "bowhunters." As a real bowhunter, I find this demeaning and insulting - you are crossbow hunters, and very few have any idea what it even means to be a true bowhunter.


----------



## cynic

Pete- I don't think that some of the others want anything equal to what they hunt with in the field. They have a fear of losing superiority. 
*I really don't want anyone looking either up at me, or down at me. Well looking up a little bit  because I'm a good hunter, but not because I'm battling problems. Just let me be one of the guys. I don't want to be perceived as disabled. Just telling the truth. *
This is a problem that faced my younger brother, who was paralyzed in a drive by shooting at a red light in his early 20's. He bow hunted,dog hunted and still hunted. For years he would do none of the above. Then Jackie Bushman and the Disabled hunters Org started him hunting again. wanting to bow hunt he bought a xbow and a pop-up blind, but while some pittied him for his disability others critisized his using a xbow because his legs had nothing to do with drawing a bow, with this once again he has stopped bowhunting. He now only hunts with other disabled hunters because with them he is just another hunter. He knows his handicap and doesn't needs added reminders.
I personally don't care what any of you hunt with at any time of the hunting season. It will not change what I do nor will it affect what I am doing on my hunt.

*The opposite reaction occurs when folks are perceived to be taking the easy way out. Full legalization of the crossbow will make the perception worse, not better.* 
This perception was only created by those wanting to keep another form of achery equipment out of the archery season. It was not created by the non-hunters or animal rights groups, it was created by bowhunting organizations to make others think that what they do is "fair" and create an illusion that Traditional bow hunting is sooo much harder. What they don't explain while doing this is that the bow they shoot after they draw it gets easier not harder to hold. 60lb draw 80% letoff 12lbs holding draw weight, 70lbs 80% 14 lb holding draw weight and once anchored can be held at full draw for extended periods thus allowing the hunter to draw well before the shot opportunity but will continue that they have to draw in the presence of game.
When does the presence of game occure, at what distance and is it only allowed after eye contact is made? Is it when the game is aware of the hunters presence or the hunter aware of the games presence.
Is it considered drawing in the presence of game when 
a.) the deer is walking towards the hunter 40-45yds away while unable to see the hunter
b.) drawing on the animal at the point the shot will be made and the deer has the ability to watch the hunter
If you chose B that is one of the reasons why you have a problem being successful
How many times has it been shown on the outdoor channel that the hunter draws well before the shot and has to get the deers attention to stop him in excess of 25yds?
Then the use of blinds that totally conceal the draw motion.
In my opinion the use of climbers to get higher and conceal movement and smell along with enclosed ground blinds. Have made the arguement "Drawing in the presence of game" rediculous at best. When drawing from a concealed location the draw motion is no more than taking off the safety..


----------



## cynic

thesource said:


> Actually, here in NY, we have been allowed as many as 7 legal deer a year. When I hunted in NC, I was allowed 5 deer a year. I also live fairly close to PA and used to hunt in that state, too.
> pls note the following "When I hunted" "used to hunt" he is giving clues that most do not see. He wants us to catch him, he wants to be known for what he is...NON-HUNTER he is just making us work for it. Don't you guys watch any of the crime story shows?
> 
> There have indeed been seasons when I have not killed one with a bow....
> This is believeable bow or otherwise
> 
> Perhaps you need some clarification - I'm talking about kill % - 100% means I have always killed what I shot it, never wounded and lost any.
> This too is believable to me for the simple reason I don't think you are a hunter so never shooting would make no wounded or lost game
> 
> It is a goal that every hunter should strive for, and it counts for a lot more to a bowhunter than the score from some irrelevant archery tournament.


Thanks for the clarification no where does he proven he has taken game. He only eludes to the fact that where he has lived they allow hunting and x number of deer per hunter. You really have to watch what he says. Some interpret what he is saying to mean. Just read what it says


----------



## thesource

Poor, simple cynic.

Interpret this:

I am a hunter and a bowhunter. I have bowhunted for 22 years and continue to do so. Out of NY's ~35 day bowseason, I am in the woods bowhunting, on average, 20-25 of those days.

I am extremely passionate about protecting bowhunting because I am a serious and dedicated bowhunter. I am only interested in doing what I feel is best for bowhunting because I am a bowhunter.

Clear enough for you?


----------



## Jim C

The only way certain gullible members of the non-hunting public would ever perceive a crossbow as "cheating" compared to a compound bow is through the efforts of the bigots and the selfish. That of course is what Poop and Dung and people like the source are trying to do.


----------



## Jim C

thesource said:


> Poor, simple cynic.
> 
> Interpret this:
> 
> I am a hunter and a bowhunter. I have bowhunted for 22 years and continue to do so. Out of NY's ~35 day bowseason, I am in the woods bowhunting, on average, 20-25 of those days.
> 
> I am extremely passionate about protecting bowhunting because I am a serious and dedicated bowhunter. I am only interested in doing what I feel is best for bowhunting because I am a bowhunter.
> 
> Clear enough for you?


and other than using the weasel words that a crossbow is not bowhunting, how are you protecting bowhunting by dividing bowhunters and slandering thousands of bowhunters in other states with your psychobabble that crossbows aren't bows?


----------



## thesource

cynic said:


> What they don't explain while doing this is that the bow they shoot after they draw it gets easier not harder to hold. 60lb draw 80% letoff 12lbs holding draw weight, 70lbs 80% 14 lb holding draw weight and once anchored can be held at full draw for extended periods thus allowing the hunter to draw well before the shot opportunity but will continue that they have to draw in the presence of game...


Your arguement is spurious at best.

If you feel that bowhunting with compounds is too easy, you should be lobbying to have them removed from the bowseason instead of arguing that even easier weapons should be added.

Your arguement makes no sense.


----------



## thesource

Jim C said:


> The only way certain gullible members of the non-hunting public would ever perceive a crossbow as "cheating" compared to a compound bow is through the efforts of the bigots and the selfish. That of course is what Poop and Dung and people like the source are trying to do.


This is simply untrue. I can go ask 10 perfect strangers today if they think that crossbows should be allowed during bow season, and I am willing to bet that a clear majority will say no and at least half will say "that seems like cheating."

You are just not in touch with the mainstream regarding this issue.


----------



## cynic

thesource said:


> Your arguement is spurious at best.
> 
> If you feel that bowhunting with compounds is too easy, you should be lobbying to have them removed from the bowseason instead of arguing that even easier weapons should be added.
> 
> Your arguement makes no sense.


Source, I am not up for recruitment by your efforts and agenda to do away with all forms of archery. I know that you would like nothing more than not only be able to fight crossbows but have someone fighting to get rid of another form of hunting on your side. It is getting clearer now what your true intention is..Stopping all forms of hunting..


----------



## Jim C

thesource said:


> This is simply untrue. I can go ask 10 perfect strangers today if they think that crossbows should be allowed during bow season, and I am willing to bet that a clear majority will say no and at least half will say "that seems like cheating."
> 
> You are just not in touch with the mainstream regarding this issue.


BS-those strangers are probably people you meet at a poop and dung meeting. If you tell people that a crossbow has no greater range or accuracy I bet the answer will be no but if you tell them that there is no requirement people practice the answers will be against trad bows

There is absolutely no objective arguments against letting xbows in a season that allows compounds. All we have is greed and a facade of psychosis and lies


----------



## cynic

thesource said:


> Poor, simple cynic.
> 
> Interpret this:
> 
> I am a hunter and a bowhunter. I have bowhunted for 22 years and continue to do so. Out of NY's ~35 day bowseason, I am in the woods bowhunting, on average, 20-25 of those days.
> 
> I am extremely passionate about protecting bowhunting because I am a serious and dedicated bowhunter. I am only interested in doing what I feel is best for bowhunting because I am a bowhunter.
> 
> Clear enough for you?


I think at this time we need more creditable sources to establish what you say

*Originally Posted by thesource
This is simply untrue. I can go ask 10 perfect strangers today if they think that crossbows should be allowed during bow season, and I am willing to bet that a clear majority will say no and at least half will say "that seems like cheating."

You are just not in touch with the mainstream regarding this issue. *

Watch what he says 10 perfect strangers but does not disclose which PETA meeting hall they will be in. So if he goes to a different group than the one he regularly attends they are still going to say no to crossbows and that they are cheating


----------



## Jim C

cynic said:


> Source, I am not up for recruitment by your efforts and agenda to do away with all forms of archery. I know that you would like nothing more than not only be able to fight crossbows but have someone fighting to get rid of another form of hunting on your side. It is getting clearer now what your true intention is..Stopping all forms of hunting..


Source lives in a fantasy world. In his world, the only threat to bowhunting is other bowhunters and Source wants to have a society where only his true believers hunt and everyone else isn't allowed in the season but that small group of fanatics will have enough influence to stave off PETA and other forces that are anti hunting

in reality people like the Source are anti bowhunting. Source has no known or proveable credentials in archery yet he slanders thousands and thousands of bowhunters because he claims they are lazy. He thinks that say a doctor or lawyer with a busy practice shouldn't be able to bowhunt unless they are willing to meet some idiotic test of committment in order to overcome a filter that a nobody with ego problems wants to impose on them


----------



## thesource

Jim C said:


> BS-those strangers are probably people you meet at a poop and dung meeting. If you tell people that a crossbow has no greater range or accuracy I bet the answer will be no but if you tell them that there is no requirement people practice the answers will be against trad bows


Do I need to explain the concept of "perfect stranger" to you, Jim....duh.

I won't frame the question with any background. The topic is the general public's negative perception of crossbows - no fair trying to sway the answer one way or the other by how you ask the question....cheater.


----------



## cynic

Perfect strangers in a big city in NY will vary greatly from those living in a small rural town in florida..So geagraphic location would taint the results..you ask ten and I'll ask ten


----------



## thesource

Jim C said:


> in reality people like the Source are anti bowhunting.


No Jim. When you slander bowhunting organizations, make bogus claims of trad wounding, or emphasize the few compounders who grab a bow and hit the woods with no practice while ignoring the vast majority who work hard to improve their form and shooting ability, or state that when crossbows achieve national advantage in numbers you will ban vertical bows ....

That is antibowhunting.


----------



## Jim C

thesource said:


> Do I need to explain the concept of "perfect stranger" to you, Jim....duh.
> 
> I won't frame the question with any background. The topic is the general public's negative perception of crossbows - no fair trying to sway the answer one way or the other by how you ask the question....cheater.


the only groups making negative comments about crossbows are bigots like you and the groups that support your bigotry. DO a google search on crossbows and the only negative stuff you can find is from people like you or anti xbow propaganda pieces commissioned by the lie filled PBS or Poop and DUNG. GO ahead, find something negative about modern hunting crossbows (that Richard the Lion heart was killed by one doesn't count but Marlow thought it did sicne that is where he created the negative impressions of crossbows outside of hunters) that comes from some source other than the legions of the selfish


like all your points source-they depend on bias or ignorance to have any merit


----------



## Jim C

thesource said:


> No Jim. When you slander bowhunting organizations, make bogus claims of trad wounding, or emphasize the few compounders who grab a bow and hit the woods with no practice while ignoring the vast majority who work hard to improve their form and shooting ability, or state that when crossbows achieve national advantage in numbers you will ban vertical bows ....
> 
> That is antibowhunting.


Again you are full of it source-I was a staff pro at RELO in SW ohio and then helped run a pro shop. as such, I observed hundreds of people who bowhunt and I talked to other range/shop owners all the time as well as major wholesailers and makers. We all know that the vast majority of bowhunters pull their bows out in mid september, shoot a couple weeks and then go hunt and once they fill their tags or gun season hits, put their bow away for the rest of the year. Saying that this is a rare occurrence again proves what we all know

You know nothing about bowhunting and you continue to debate without any knowledge


----------



## oldbhtrnewequip

thesource said:


> I do not believe that crossbows belong in bow season.


Do you believe that its okay for crossbow season to run coresident with bow season?


----------



## oldbhtrnewequip

cynic said:


> Mathews commercial boasts innovation after innovation after innovation Martin boasts the most accurate bow in the world. With all these innovations aren't the manufacturers themselves changing the face of archery and the tradition? Aren't all of these new innovations by all of the manufacturers only serving to make shooting a bow easier for those too lazy or that don't have the time or motivation to discipline themselve to learn to shoot instinctively with a recurve but yet some would defend them as saving the bowhunting tradition.


My request for a primitive season is based on 
1.)the unrelenting advance of technology,
2.)the desire to establish a means/method to maintain tradition and heritage
3.)the desire to establish a level playing field which doesn't exist today.


----------



## thesource

Jim C said:


> the only groups making negative comments about crossbows are bigots like you and the groups that support your bigotry. DO a google search on crossbows and the only negative stuff you can find is from people like you or anti xbow propaganda pieces commissioned by the lie filled PBS or Poop and DUNG. GO ahead, find something negative about modern hunting crossbows (that Richard the Lion heart was killed by one doesn't count but Marlow thought it did sicne that is where he created the negative impressions of crossbows outside of hunters) that comes from some source other than the legions of the selfish
> 
> 
> like all your points source-they depend on bias or ignorance to have any merit


LOL - that didn't take long. Here's a quote from a paper in Maine:

"Rightly or wrongly, many woodlot owners would see a person with a crossbow as carrying a medieval weapon and up to no good," said Peter Lawrence the Small Woodland Owners Association of Maine, which opposed the bill.


I would say that is a negative perception of crossbows from a group associated with neither archery or bowhunting.

In other words, you've been proven wrong yet again about crossbows.


----------



## thesource

oldbhtrnewequip said:


> Do you believe that its okay for crossbow season to run coresident with bow season?


I think it would be OK IF:

There was still some exclusive time for bows only.
Crossbows and Bows are identified as separate and different, just like guns and MZ.


----------



## oldbhtrnewequip

thesource said:


> 2) "in the eyes of the public" crossbows are evil weapons used by cheaters.\
> 
> .


So its both unethical to the deer (evil) and unfair to other hunters (cheaters).

After having said that, I think you just might be able to put yourself in my shoes, and understand my point of view.


----------



## oldbhtrnewequip

thesource said:


> The question is not IF we draw the line, its WHERE do we draw the line.


We first have to agree to why we draw the line.

If we can't agree on why we draw the line then we can't agree on where
we draw the line.


----------



## oldbhtrnewequip

thesource said:


> That's certainly part of it, but I feel it can still be unfair to both hunters and deer depending on the calendar.
> 
> .


When is it unfair to deer to hunt with a crossbow?


----------



## oldbhtrnewequip

*cynic*

Sounds like your brother has sorted out what he needs to :darkbeer: 

Its a shame that some folks have to ridicule or put down others to make themselves feel better about themselves or their sport, or what they are doing. That has nothing to do with being a bad hunter. It has to do with being a bad person.



*The opposite reaction occurs when folks are perceived to be taking the easy way out. Full legalization of the crossbow will make the perception worse, not better.* 

Everything is relative. You can make something look good by making something else look bad. You can make something look good based on its own merits. 

You can let something allow itself to look bad based on its own merits.

*Traditional bow hunting is sooo much harder.* 

It is.


----------



## oldbhtrnewequip

thesource said:


> I would say that is a negative perception of crossbows from a group associated with neither archery or bowhunting.
> .


"Also drawing a bead on the crossbow were groups representing farmers, hunting guides and a wildlife organization."

Its a really good article....read the whole thing. 

Look a little further and you'll find swoam in opposition to a bill regarding sunday hunting at the same time.

http://outdoors.mainetoday.com/hunting/050516crossbow.shtml


----------



## thesource

oldbhtrnewequip said:


> We first have to agree to why we draw the line.
> 
> If we can't agree on why we draw the line then we can't agree on where
> we draw the line.


OK - I'll bite.

Why do you think we draw the line?


----------



## Jim C

oldbhtrnewequip said:


> My request for a primitive season is based on
> 1.)the unrelenting advance of technology,
> 2.)the desire to establish a means/method to maintain tradition and heritage
> 3.)the desire to establish a level playing field which doesn't exist today.



what is a level playing field-do you think you are competing against other hunters? how about scents, carbon filter suits, ultra high treestands, sophisticated shoot through ground blinds?


----------



## thesource

oldbhtrnewequip said:


> "Also drawing a bead on the crossbow were groups representing farmers, hunting guides and a wildlife organization."
> 
> Its a really good article....read the whole thing.
> 
> Look a little further and you'll find swoam in opposition to a bill regarding sunday hunting at the same time.
> 
> http://outdoors.mainetoday.com/hunting/050516crossbow.shtml


I did read the whole thing.

It seems that the same partisan bickering is evident for all the typical reasons. Incidentally, Maine ended up putting crossbows into gun season.


----------



## Jim C

oldbhtrnewequip said:


> When is it unfair to deer to hunt with a crossbow?



its unfair to source's ego-that is the main thing we are dealing with here. You see when Source tells some young lady at a party that he is a bowhunter he doesn't think his standing will be quite as impressive if that young lady immediately thinks of a mathews or a Horton

that is what we have been arguing about for his 1900 posts. He thinks that merely buying a bow that takes a bit more time to master is some sort of a badge of honor and a path to respect that should not be sullied by unbelievers or the majority of us who don't have social-self confidence issues.


----------



## thesource

Not accurate at all.

I think bowhunters need to be BOWhunters.

Not crossbow toting wannabes.


----------



## Jim C

thesource said:


> Not accurate at all.
> 
> I think bowhunters need to be BOWhunters.
> 
> Not crossbow toting wannabes.


More arrogant insults-a guy who uses a crossbow is every bit the bowhunter as you are and that is what causes you such mental discomfort because your ego feels a burning need to rank yourself above others

there is NO NEED to bowhunt Source

I think people should be able to bowhunt with any ethical bowhunting tackle they want

I think selfish losers who have mental issues really should have no say in what others bowhunt with as long as its archery gear and only a real psychotic would claim a crossbow isn't archery gear

I think the desires of others to participate in the season in the way they want that is not detrimental objectively to you trumps your ego and your internal self esteem problems


----------



## cynic

thesource said:


> Not accurate at all.
> 
> I think bowhunters need to be BOWhunters.
> 
> Not crossbow toting wannabes.


This I believe to be untrue. I also think that you need to better understand that a crossbow is a form of bow. You point to definitions that are not true definitions then use them to try to make others believe that because the definition you use is definitive. The last statistics you provided in another thread(by the way still waiting for the link) from VA states
http://www.dgif.virginia.gov/hunting/crossbow.asp
Q. Is there a maximum draw weight poundage? 
A. Crossbows are considered a type of bow and arrow and therefore have the same requirements in archery tackle specifications as a conventional bow. Thus a crossbow must be capable of propelling a broadhead arrow at least 125 yards.
So with this definition it is clearly a bow just as a compound is a type of bow


----------



## thesource

LOL -

Keep yourself busy the rest of the day by looking up the definition of a bow in all 50 states and report back.

They will overwhelmingly be in my favor.

Since you are using a state's definition as our guidance, I guess that settles it. Arguement over - the crossbow is not considered a bow in almost every state!


----------



## Jim C

the source hangs his hat on sophistry and his moronic claim that xbows aren't bows because it short circuits the need to actually be able to debate.

its intellectually dishonest

we know why he is against xbows-he doesn't want anyone else bowhunting

he has already admitted it but he also admitted that xbows won't hurt the herd so we are left with the only thing it can hurt

His ego


----------



## thesource

JIm

Why do you lie? Is it because you cannot compete with me in this debate?

Do you hunt with a crossbow because you cannot compete in the woods?

What causes you to take such an obnoxious attitude with those who point out the flaws in your logic and the errors of your ways?

You need to tell the truth - I have never admitted I don't want others to bowhunt (and in fact I have said repeatedly that I encourage everyone to grab a bow and become a bowhunt). I never claimed that xbows hurt the herd so my "admission" doesn't actually mean anything.

Why are you prasvaricating like this? Do you feel compelled to cheat to try and make yourself look better?


----------



## cynic

Jim C said:


> the source hangs his hat on sophistry and his moronic claim that xbows aren't bows because it short circuits the need to actually be able to debate.
> 
> its intellectually dishonest
> 
> we know why he is against xbows-he doesn't want anyone else bowhunting
> 
> he has already admitted it but he also admitted that xbows won't hurt the herd so we are left with the only thing it can hurt
> 
> His ego


I think you are wrong...He doesn't want anyone hunting


----------



## cynic

thesource said:


> LOL -
> 
> Keep yourself busy the rest of the day by looking up the definition of a bow in all 50 states and report back.
> 
> They will overwhelmingly be in my favor.
> 
> Since you are using a state's definition as our guidance, I guess that settles it. Arguement over - the crossbow is not considered a bow in almost every state!


You chose to use the fact that KY has a seperate definition..
Instead of going thru all that this just get one from say the encyclopedia or dictionary at that point it should be clear


----------



## thesource

cynic said:


> You chose to use the fact that KY has a seperate definition..


Cynic - do you know what "irony" is?


----------



## greenboy

the-source -i think the use of a crossbow will be easyer on the deer herd an better for bowhunting , as we will not have as many deer running around with arrows stickin out there a%$$#@#@ by bowhunter that shoot 3 hrs. an think they are go to an can not hit a the side of a barn. stop the holly than now stuff i hunt south of buffalo ny an have seen it all, land owners that post there land to keep bowhunter of because of dead deer lying all over. compounder that buy there bows 1 week before season,trad bowers that shoot instinkivelyfor 2 weeks hitting a paper plate at 15 yards shooting 35 hitting deer in the ahole. u an fr are so full of it.use any thing to put down crossbow hunters. u shoud use your time to clean up your own ranks...as a land owner of hunting land- if i want to use a longbow,compound,crossbow it my land, do u own land to hunt on, or are u a town want abe that wants to tell us how to run are land, an hunt.at the end of june we will know how much of a bs talker u are as i have caught u in one allready an have no respect for u or your info, u are the best troller on line they should give trad hunter there season its fair oct. 1 till shotgun,compound oct.20 till shotgun,crossbows nov.1 till shotgun season,expand mz loading 2 weeks, keep all bows out this is fair now lets here source cry.


----------



## aceoky

cynic said:


> You chose to use the fact that KY has a seperate definition..
> Instead of going thru all that this just get one from say the encyclopedia or dictionary at that point it should be clear



Fact is; when the regs was changed in 2005, THAT change made the crossbow legal for the entire archery season, OR to put it another way.....IF in KY the definition included the crossbow then it would again be legal for the entire archery season.......the definition in KY iow IS what is legal and what is not.......no more or less......as I said two changes to the Regs and crossbows were legal archery tackle, once the full expansion is back in place it will be that way again, and Ky will include the crossbow in it's definition of "bow"........simple as that, it's only not there now because of the selfish bow groups and clubs who ran to the Legislature behind the KDFWR's back, and forced a "won't last " "compromise", by holding other matters over the Depts head unless they reached somthing NOW.. the real intent of was to cause even more division and fighting........and it's working rather well, at doing just that


----------



## thesource

greenboy said:


> the-source -i think the use of a crossbow will be easyer on the deer herd an better for bowhunting , as we will not have as many deer running around with arrows stickin out there a%$$#@#@ by bowhunter .


greenboy...why would you come onto a bowhunting website and bash bowhunters?

If you are so antibowhunting, why are you here?

Are you the kind of crossbower I am to believe will defend bowhunting if we just let you in?

I think not - its clear that you are NOT a bowhunter and have no interest in bowhunting. Instead you make disparaging statements about bowhunters....you will fit in nicely with these other crossbow extremists.


----------



## cynic

thesource said:


> greenboy...why would you come onto a bowhunting website and bash bowhunters?
> 
> If you are so antibowhunting, why are you here?
> 
> Are you the kind of crossbower I am to believe will defend bowhunting if we just let you in?
> 
> I think not - its clear that you are NOT a bowhunter and have no interest in bowhunting. Instead you make disparaging statements about bowhunters....you will fit in nicely with these other crossbow extremists.


FACT or Fiction


----------



## twogun

> thesource said:
> 
> 
> 
> Your slanderous statement that I try to "convince the public" of this "to further my anticrossbow agenda" aside, it has been my experience that what I said is true - the public has a negative connotation of crossbows and that is another reason I do not want them associated with bows.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Slanderous hell. It's only slanderous if it's false. You will tell anyone who will listen that using a crossbow during bow season is cheating and a violation of "Fair Chase." So, you are trying to convince "the public" that crossbow hunters in Ohio, Arkansas, Georgia, Alabama, Tennessee, Wyoming, Kentucky, and parts of Canada are cheaters because in all those places hunters use crossbows during bowseason.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Now back to your personal attack .....
> 
> What you call spin I consider conviction. I have never said that crossbows or crossbowers are evil,.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Personal attack??   More spin.
> 
> You have called all Ohio crossbow hunters lazy. You have called all crossbow hunters in all the states with full inclusion cheaters. You have claimed that all crossbow hunters in states with full inlusion violaters of "Fair Chase." You have implied that hunters who use a crossbow are of lower moral fiber than those who use compounds.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> in fact I support there use in seasons other than bowseason
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> That is nothin more than a passive aggressive copout intended to make you sound reasonable. You know full well that in many states bowseason is the first to open and the last to close. Any additional seasons or weapons that may be added will fall in bowseason. Essentially what you are saying is that you don't oppose crossbows during gun season which in many states runs during bowseason also. Your stance doesn't make sense, but you know that.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I do consider them cheating in bowseason, and I find it appalling that crossbowers refer to their equipment as "bows" and themselves as "bowhunters." As a real bowhunter, I find this demeaning and insulting
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> How in the world can you allow yourself to feel demeaned and insulted because I say my crossbow is a bow or that I consider myself a bowhunter? I assure you there is absolutely nothing you could do in your personal life that would have any impact on my feelings about what I do, guaranteed. If you really are that fragile and allow yourself to feel that way, I truely feel sorry for you.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> - you are crossbow hunters, and very few have any idea what it even means to be a true bowhunter
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> And yet another unsupportable generalization? You paint with a broad brush just about everytime you open your mouth. In fact you know full well that most of the pro-crossbow guys you butt heads with here hunt with different kinds of bows.
> 
> You know I usually view all the psychoanalysis that some offer up about you as just their way to get under your skin, but I am really beginning to wonder. Why do have exhibit such a desire to elevate yourself above so many others? I really don't understand. I don't act that way. My friends don't act that way.
Click to expand...


----------



## thesource

Let's start with the last, first, shall we?



twogun said:


> You know I usually view all the psychoanalysis that some offer up about you as just their way to get under your skin, but I am really beginning to wonder.


Your first instinct was correct. They are using questionable tactics to get under my skin ... and now you're joining them

It probably falls into the category of Personal Attacks, and is therefore against the rules of the forum, but its generally pretty amusing so I don't bother reporting it.



twogun said:


> Slanderous hell. It's only slanderous if it's false. You will tell anyone who will listen that using a crossbow during bow season is cheating and a violation of "Fair Chase." So, you are trying to convince "the public" that crossbow hunters in Ohio, Arkansas, Georgia, Alabama, Tennessee, Wyoming, Kentucky, and parts of Canada are cheaters because in all those places hunters use crossbows during bowseason.


I was under the impression that these message boards don't count as "the general public." If they do - then I guess you are right. If they don't, then you are being slanderous again.



twogun said:


> You have called all Ohio crossbow hunters lazy. You have called all crossbow hunters in all the states with full inclusion cheaters. You have claimed that all crossbow hunters in states with full inlusion violaters of "Fair Chase." You have implied that hunters who use a crossbow are of lower moral fiber than those who use compounds.


Yep. Yep. Yep. Only based on those who argue with me here.
By the way - none of those are personal attacks.
And all of that could be avoided if crossbow hunters just had their own season. POOF - instant credibility.



twogun said:


> That is nothin more than a passive aggressive copout intended to make you sound reasonable. You know full well that in many states bowseason is the first to open and the last to close. Any additional seasons or weapons that may be added will fall in bowseason. Essentially what you are saying is that you don't oppose crossbows during gun season which in many states runs during bowseason also. Your stance doesn't make sense, but you know that.


Now you sound like you are whining again. Your not telling the truth, either. I am record in planty of instances, here and elsewhere, stating that xbows should have their own season. I have even advocated exclusivity for the xbow. I have stated that partially co-current seasons could be acceptable (with some limitations) and have even stated that I would be willing to give up part of my existing bowseason rather than have crossbows in bowseason.

Now, after all that, how can you insinuate that I am being disingenuous about a separate crossbow season?  (See why noone can get along with you guys?)



twogun said:


> How in the world can you allow yourself to feel demeaned and insulted because I say my crossbow is a bow or that I consider myself a bowhunter?


Bowhunting is part of my identity. I share that identity with other bowhunters, not with crossbow carrying wannabes. It is no different than someone who never served in the Army claiming to be a Ranger, or these illegal immigrants who jump the fence and demand to be called a citizen.

Crossbow guys have not done what it takes to be called a bowhunter. They are just crossbow hunters.



twogun said:


> In fact you know full well that most of the pro-crossbow guys you butt heads with here hunt with different kinds of bows.


I don't know that all. I here them SAY they do, but that doesn't mean they do. Its like you saying that you are a bowhunter.....yea, after you get your buck with your xbow and have lots of season and some doe tags left, you might hunt with a bow. That is a far cry from using only the bow to be successful....you use the xbow as a crutch.


----------



## cynic

thesource said:


> Yep. Yep. Yep. Only based on those who argue with me here.
> By the way - none of those are personal attacks.
> And all of that could be avoided if crossbow hunters just had their own season. POOF - instant credibility.


I have a solution..Lets just change the name to *Crossbow Season *and allow all other forms of archery equipment..


----------



## Jim C

thesource said:


> JIm
> 
> Why do you lie? Is it because you cannot compete with me in this debate?
> 
> Do you hunt with a crossbow because you cannot compete in the woods?
> 
> What causes you to take such an obnoxious attitude with those who point out the flaws in your logic and the errors of your ways?
> 
> You need to tell the truth - I have never admitted I don't want others to bowhunt (and in fact I have said repeatedly that I encourage everyone to grab a bow and become a bowhunt). I never claimed that xbows hurt the herd so my "admission" doesn't actually mean anything.
> 
> Why are you prasvaricating like this? Do you feel compelled to cheat to try and make yourself look better?


I have never lied on this issue source-I truly believe you have a mental illness that causes you to obsess on this issue

Here is my proof

1) you admit that crossbows do not hurt the herd
2) you have no problem with crossbows hunting as LONG as they have a separate season
3) you claim crossbow trophies are not as worthy as "bow hunting" trophies and you whine that xbow archers are lazy 

from the above its obvious to me and others that your only concern is tainting your status as a bowhunter. Since you admit that xbow archers do not objectively hurt-its obvious your only argument is based on your self esteem which is the sign of a mental problem


----------



## aceoky

*Bowhunting is part of my identity. I share that identity with other bowhunters, not with crossbow carrying wannabes. It is no different than someone who never served in the Army claiming to be a Ranger, or these illegal immigrants who jump the fence and demand to be called a citizen.*

It's part of mine, as well, the difference it that it's not so much of my identity I have nothing else, and that I don't worry what other hunters use to harvest during archery season, it matter not nor does it affect me or my "identity" in any way shape or form, but I guess somehow it does yours....that is sad btw.....to talk such nonsense about fellow hunters......yeah, you guys never divide, it's ONLY the entire message

*And all of that could be avoided if crossbow hunters just had their own season. POOF - instant credibility.*

That IS divsion, right there, we''ll welcome them, but ONLY in their own season, we refuse to share our ultra long season with other archers, not because of how they hunt , but upon their choice of archery tackle, very sad indeed, and it's causing the division, no matter HOW you guys try to spin it or blame others....period

*I am record in planty of instances, here and elsewhere, stating that xbows should have their own season. I have even advocated exclusivity for the xbow. I have stated that partially co-current seasons could be acceptable (with some limitations) and have even stated that I would be willing to give up part of my existing bowseason rather than have crossbows in bowseason.*

MORE division, and knowing full well, that archery season is the longest running season, you never seem to propose how this could be done, without having them in "archery season", before or after is "nuts".....as we all are well aware, and not good for the herd, nor the hunters.......but you insist on taking that stand knowing this.....

*Crossbow guys have not done what it takes to be called a bowhunter. They are just crossbow hunters.*

Unfounded, undocumented, again you judge others you have never met,and attempt to make broad gereralzations about them......as IF every bowhunter HAS done what it takes.......we all know better than that as well, and anyone who's been in a pro shop a few days before archery season starts has seen it "first hand", more division, and more unfounded accusations..... I have NO doubt there are plenty of us who have "done what it takes", but you won't and don't hear us, talking down to other hunters only a very few of your side does this......again very sad indeed!

*(See why noone can get along with you guys?)*

Again unfounded accusations......I'd bet most of us don't have that problem, then again WE don't go around judging those whom we've never even met and making public statements in a negative light about them, we know who does that though.......sad indeed once again!


----------



## Jim C

Crossbow guys have not done what it takes to be called a bowhunter. They are just crossbow hunters.

_____________

its mental illness. source has no proof that bowhunters with compounds do anything different than bowhunting crossbow hunters


----------



## thesource

Jim C said:


> I have never lied on this issue source-I truly believe you have a mental illness that causes you to obsess on this issue


Well, Doctor, you are entitled to yur opinion.... 

You have lied. 



Jim C said:


> we know why he is against xbows-he doesn't want anyone else bowhunting
> he has already admitted it


Prove otherwise or shut up in disgrace,


----------



## thesource

aceoky said:


> Unfounded, undocumented, again you judge others you have never met,and attempt to make broad gereralzations about them......as IF every bowhunter HAS done what it takes.......we all know better than that as well, and anyone who's been in a pro shop a few days before archery season starts has seen it "first hand", more division, and more unfounded accusations..... I have NO doubt there are plenty of us who have "done what it takes", but you won't and don't hear us, talking down to other hunters only a very few of your side does this......again very sad indeed!


Very sad .... boo hoo.

Your bowhunter bashing (" pro shop a few days before archery season starts ") is noted. Your divisiveness is also noted.

If bowhunters have not done what it takes .... they will not be successful. That is the filter that Free Range and I have discussed, but you are aparently too dense to understand.

It takes commitment to be a consistently successful bowhunter....and that is OK. Its part of the deal, and bowhunters understand that.

Your desire to short circuit that commitment is laughable at best, and tragic at worst.

You clearly do not understand bowhunting, aceoky. You don't get "it."


----------



## Jim C

thesource said:


> Well, Doctor, you are entitled to yur opinion....
> 
> You have lied.
> 
> 
> 
> Prove otherwise or shut up in disgrace,


stuff it source-you don't want anyone else in your woods

my opinion based on your anti hunter nonsense

now since you are into proof-PROVE ALL CROSSBOW HUNTERS ARE LAZY

or shut up in disgrace


----------



## Jim C

thesource said:


> Very sad .... boo hoo.
> 
> Your bowhunter bashing (" pro shop a few days before archery season starts ") is noted. Your divisiveness is also noted.
> 
> If bowhunters have not done what it takes .... they will not be successful. That is the filter that Free Range and I have discussed, but you are aparently too dense to understand.
> 
> It takes commitment to be a consistently successful bowhunter....and that is OK. Its part of the deal, and bowhunters understand that.
> 
> Your desire to short circuit that commitment is laughable at best, and tragic at worst.
> 
> You clearly do not understand bowhunting, aceoky. You don't get "it."


again you lie

one of the top bucks taken in the SW ohio area was a by a boy who was working in his family's barn up in the hay loft. He had his bow when a big buck came along-made the 12 yard shot out of the barn window. 

no scent, no camo, no setting the stand-pure luck


----------



## thesource

OK.

Yor point?

Fortune will always play a role in deer hunting.

You make no sense to me.


----------



## Jim C

thesource said:


> OK.
> 
> Yor point?
> 
> Fortune will always play a role in deer hunting.
> 
> You make no sense to me.



of course I make no sense to you

I argue based on facts and my argument is consistent with the philosophy that this country was founded upon

you on the other hand post based on internal issues and emotionally based psychobabble


----------



## thesource

No Jim.

You argue as a radical crossbow partisan.

You argue as one who has something to lose if crossbows are not considered appropriate for bowseasons.

You argue as an extremist to protect the weapon you are allowed to use in Ohio in some search for legitmacy you will not find in other states.


----------



## Jim C

thesource said:


> No Jim.
> 
> You argue as a radical crossbow partisan.
> 
> You argue as one who has something to lose if crossbows are not considered appropriate for bowseasons.
> 
> You argue as an extremist to protect the weapon you are allowed to use in Ohio in some search for legitmacy you will not find in other states.


lying again-I argue consistent with what compound archers argued three decades ago and what trad archers demanded long before that

I won't lose anything-Ohio is not about to get rid of crossbows and more states continue to allow them

your standing as a bowhunter apparently shrinks with every new state

Making the same arguments tom Jennings made 35 or so years ago is hardly radical

what is radical is your mental illness which clearly is the only thing that motivates your hysterics which are contradicted by your other claims


----------



## thesource

You must be losing your temper - you make absolutely no sense.

Ohio most certainly can lose crossbow priveledges, especially if xbows are proven to be more efficient than bows. You don't really think that all these laws are one way only, do you?

Wouldn't that be ironic? Perhaps you OH guys should keep it closed and worry more about protecting what you have than spouting your radical idealogy nationwide.


----------



## oldbhtrnewequip

thesource said:


> OK - I'll bite.
> 
> Why do you think we draw the line?


Depends on who you are.
Some think we draw it based on herd control and biology.
Others think we draw it based on heritage and continuity of tradition.
More think we draw it based on revenue to the DNR coffers.


----------



## Jim C

thesource said:


> You must be losing your temper - you make absolutely no sense.
> 
> Ohio most certainly can lose crossbow priveledges, especially if xbows are proven to be more efficient than bows. You don't really think that all these laws are one way only, do you?
> 
> Wouldn't that be ironic? Perhaps you OH guys should keep it closed and worry more about protecting what you have than spouting your radical idealogy nationwide.



we have more clout than that Source. i think what reall worries you is that some hunters would be willing to throw you to the wolves to save bowhunting.

bows perceived by the public to be more likely to wound are going to be easier to ban than ones that you whine are more accurate


----------



## oldbhtrnewequip

Jim C said:


> what is a level playing field-do you think you are competing against other hunters? how about scents, carbon filter suits, ultra high treestands, sophisticated shoot through ground blinds?


Jim,

You're the pro from dover. Seriously...no tongue in cheek.

I'm looking for someone like you to define a level playing field for a primitive season. Pick a year, and the technology that existed at that time for all of archery weapons. It would be used to establish a primitive season, in much the same way we have a primitive firearms season.

I do think I'm competing with other hunters. 

We'll talk about scents, carbon suits etc. etc. at another time.

So...what do you say to no wheels?


----------



## thesource

oldbhtrnewequip said:


> Depends on who you are.
> Some think we draw it based on herd control and biology.
> Others think we draw it based on heritage and continuity of tradition.
> More think we draw it based on revenue to the DNR coffers.


So - why do you draw the line?

I'm thinking #2, since archery hunting has never been about herd control, and basing the decision on revenue is quite vile and basic (although that is, it appears, how states have been making the decision lately)


----------



## Jim C

oldbhtrnewequip said:


> Jim,
> 
> You're the pro from dover. Seriously...no tongue in cheek.
> 
> I'm looking for someone like you to define a level playing field for a primitive season. Pick a year, and the technology that existed at that time for all of archery weapons. It would be used to establish a primitive season, in much the same way we have a primitive firearms season.
> 
> I do think I'm competing with other hunters.
> 
> We'll talk about scents, carbon suits etc. etc. at another time.
> 
> So...what do you say to no wheels?


I say that is stupid. Hunt with what ever bow you want to. There are more things to worry about than dividing bowhunters against each other. We don't need a primitive bow season since we can't define it anyway. Why should someone with a trad bow and a scent lock suit and top of the line blind get an advantage over someguy sitting in his jeans at the base of a tree with his mathews?

I don't buy the competition stuff

YOU want to compete, come shoot a FITA or go to Nelsonville


----------



## oldbhtrnewequip

thesource said:


> I did read the whole thing.
> 
> It seems that the same partisan bickering is evident for all the typical reasons. Incidentally, Maine ended up putting crossbows into gun season.


I was sure you did..I wanted to post the reference for others to read the whole thing. He did say medieval by the way.

Yep...caught where crossbows ended up.


----------



## thesource

Jim -

You are simply refusing to understand his concept of competition.

It is not about the antler score, or the number of deer....it is about competing with and getting a deer, in the midst of other hunters who are attempting to do the same.

The fact that you cannot understand this speaks volumes about you and your position.


----------



## twogun

What do you think would happen if you asked 10 perfect strangers what they would rather see hunters using, a weapon that requires a great deal of practice (according to source) in order to be accurate or one that is far easier to be accurate with? Ask them if they would prefer to see hunters using a weapon that has "fixed internal ballistics (that) ensure that the shooter cannot screw up the shot too badly" or one which does not have "fixed internal ballistics" which the shooter can screw up very badly. Explain to them that there is no practice or proficiency requirement for either weapon. Explain to them that both weapons are very similar in range and ballistics. Explain to them that both weapons kill the animal by using a fletched shaft tipped with a broadheaed.


----------



## thesource

In other words, CHEAT and bias your case for the xbow.


Regardless, it doesn't matter.

The nonhunters I have talked with assume proficiency. Perhaps its the fact that they see me shooting behind my house every single evening from June until October, and many other times throughout the year.

I believe that they respect the fact that bowhunters need to practice, and do.

I believe they have an elevated level of respect for bowhunters because they understand that going head to head with a deer using a BOW is as basic as it gets.

I do not think you will convince them that using a crossbow to make that task easier is a positive thing.


----------



## Jim C

thesource said:


> Jim -
> 
> You are simply refusing to understand his concept of competition.
> 
> It is not about the antler score, or the number of deer....it is about competing with and getting a deer, in the midst of other hunters who are attempting to do the same.
> 
> The fact that you cannot understand this speaks volumes about you and your position.



many on this board don't consider that competition

I don't. you do and you whine and whine but what is really going on is your ego

face it source-you calling other bowhunters lazy means you have a mental issue

if those xbow hunters are lazy how are they going to get "your deer"

oh maybe those guys spend more time hunting and less time shooting

I am curious source-if statistics were to show that xbows and compound bows have -after the variables were eliminated-the same harvest rate do you still have an argument?


----------



## cynic

I don't see the competition. I hunt for me, what I want to hunt with, in which stand I choose..What the rest of you including xbow hunts doesn't make a dang to me..I don't have to kill the biggest or the most, I just want a satisfying hunt to me and none of you here do or will change that..Those of you that worry about what the other guy is doing need to find something else to do..This recreational activity is way too stressfull for some of you.


----------



## thesource

Jim C said:


> I am curious source-if statistics were to show that xbows and compound bows have -after the variables were eliminated-the same harvest rate do you still have an argument?


If you have accounted for ALL the variables (and not just the ones you consider valid to support your partisan extremism), and both harvest rates were the same (SAME - not 4% (really 12.5% head to head) higher)....

Than no, I would not have an arguement. It would mean that compounds and crossbows are the same.

You and I both know 2 things for a certainty:
1) We will never have data to the level that would prove that
2) It simply isn't true. I know that xbows are advantaged, and so do you - but you will not admit it, because it hurts your cause.


----------



## thesource

cynic said:


> I don't see the competition. I hunt for me, what I want to hunt with, in which stand I choose..What the rest of you including xbow hunts doesn't make a dang to me..I don't have to kill the biggest or the most, I just want a satisfying hunt to me and none of you here do or will change that..Those of you that worry about what the other guy is doing need to find something else to do..This recreational activity is way too stressfull for some of you.


Apparently you have not had a fellow hunter backtrail your boot tracks in the snow and then find him hunting from your stand....


----------



## oldbhtrnewequip

thesource said:


> So - why do you draw the line?
> 
> I'm thinking #2, since archery hunting has never been about herd control, and basing the decision on revenue is quite vile and basic (although that is, it appears, how states have been making the decision lately)


I draw the line based on my personal sense of ethics. Most of them happen to coincide with the laws. In some cases I think some things that are legal should not be. In other cases the opposite. I draw my own lines.

We collectively draw the lines based on a lot of different reasons.

For me, its a combination of all of the above. I fully recognize that we have to do something to fund the efforts by the DNR. Mulitple seasons and multiple tags tends to provide that function. I guess the logic goes that if you're going to give someone more opportunity than another, then it should cost that person more.

You could say, that we charge every hunter the same amount of money for all tags regardless of what kind of hunting he does, or the frequency with which he hunts. Why have 3 day, 5 day, or all season tags?

Last I checked $1.4B was spent nationwide on archery annually. I won't suggest that economic interests aren't at play in how we decide our laws (defining lines). Just because we introduce new technology (think inline MZ) doesn't mean we have given up on ethics.

I think season durations are decided on politics, what has been the tradition, and about opportunity and probability. Its about interest projected by the hunting population as well. e.g. the opening day of mourning dove was proposed to change this year for the first time in 50 years or something like that. There was tremendous opposition. We'll see if the 'why' of tradition has the impact on the biologists to not mess with the opening date.

I draw the line based on what I think is fair between hunters and fair against the deer.

*
Originally Posted by thesource
That's certainly part of it, but I feel it can still be unfair to both hunters and deer depending on the calendar.*

When is it unfair to deer to hunt with a crossbow?


----------



## thesource

I think it is unfair to hunt deer with a crossbow during bow season, because I believe it violates the rules of fair chase.


----------



## Jim C

thesource said:


> If you have accounted for ALL the variables (and not just the ones you consider valid to support your partisan extremism), and both harvest rates were the same (SAME - not 4% (really 12.5% head to head) higher)....
> 
> Than no, I would not have an arguement. It would mean that compounds and crossbows are the same.
> 
> You and I both know 2 things for a certainty:
> 1) We will never have data to the level that would prove that
> 2) It simply isn't true. I know that xbows are advantaged, and so do you - but you will not admit it, because it hurts your cause.


here is your problem source-I have won state recurve titles
I have won state crossbow titles
I have won city compound titles and I have hunted successfully with all three of those type bows

you have never won a tournament
you have never hunted with a crossbow and I honestly don't believe you hunt at all

so you are telling me something my 30 years of experience says is BS

tell me source-how can you prove crossbows are overall advantaged when you have no clue about hunting with one

and it matters not to me-the advantages compounds have over trad bows is obvious yet we don't separate them

no need to seperate any type of bow as long as it can humanely take game


----------



## Jim C

thesource said:


> I think it is unfair to hunt deer with a crossbow during bow season, because I believe it violates the rules of fair chase.


The MORONIC COMMENT OF ALL TIME


----------



## cynic

Originally Posted by thesource
I think it is unfair to hunt deer with a crossbow during bow season, because I believe it violates the rules of fair chase. 


Jim C said:


> The MORONIC COMMENT OF ALL TIME


See that's why we clearly need to define what is unfair or improper. With the apparent open interpretation any and everything violates fair chase..it states 
fair chase is the ethical, sportsmanlike, and lawful pursuit of free-ranging wild game animals in a manner which does not give the hunter an improper or unfair advantage over the animal anything done that gives the hunter an advantage is unfair to the animal so with his interpretation he can truly believe that, but I truly believe that the xbow is no more improper or unfair than a compound so therefore must be fair chase


----------



## twogun

> I was under the impression that these message boards don't count as "the general public." If they do - then I guess you are right. If they don't, then you are being slanderous again.


If you believe that anti-hunters or nonhunters don't read what goes on here, you are very foolish. If you believe that all the members of AT are hunters, again you are being foolish. I'm sure there are a great many target archers here who do not hunt. I'm also sure they get bored reading the same old stuff in the general archery section and wonder around in the other forums. Arguments like these are like traffic accidents. They draw attention.

You have told us about your nonhunting neighbors who believe that using crossbows during bowseason is cheating. How do you know? Where did they get this idea? What was your part in the conversation? Did you support their view?

You have boasted about pressing your anti-crossbow agenda with law makers (who are hunters). Just exactly what did you hope they would do with the "information" you provided them? Did you just want them to hold onto it or did you tell them to only share your perspective with fellow hunters? You can't act the way you do and say the things you do and pretend to not be having an impact on the nonhunting public. 

Answer this. How do you want "the public" to view crossbows? How does NYBI want "the public" to view crossbows? Have you ever shown "the public" pictures of a crossbow, a compound, and a trad bow and asked them what their opinions are?




> Bowhunting is part of my identity. I share that identity with other bowhunters, not with crossbow carrying wannabes. It is no different than someone who never served in the Army claiming to be a Ranger, or these illegal immigrants who jump the fence and demand to be called a citizen.



I'll bet you'd be hard pressed to find a Ranger who would feel "demeaned" because someone else claimed to be a Ranger. I also doubt you will find many if any people who feel "demeaned" by illegal immigrants. That's just asinine. You were tyring to be dramatic and made a fool of yourself in the process.




> Crossbow guys have not done what it takes to be called a bowhunter. They are just crossbow hunters.


I'm not ashamed of bieng a crossbow hunter. I'm proud of what I do. And, guess what. That is all that matters. You don't. You can hurl all the insults you want against crossbow hunters, and it will have absoulutely no impact on what I do or my emotional state. It's too bad that you allow yourself to feel "demeaned" by what other people do.



> you use the xbow as a crutch.


I use a crossbow because I like to. I look forward to every fall and have a great time in the woods. That's what it's all about.


----------



## twogun

> In other words, CHEAT and bias your case for the xbow.


Prove your point. If you can. Where did I cheat? What was inaccurate in the conditions I presented? What would you change about the scenario to make it not cheating?


----------



## Jim C

cynic said:


> Originally Posted by thesource
> I think it is unfair to hunt deer with a crossbow during bow season, because I believe it violates the rules of fair chase.
> 
> 
> See that's why we clearly need to define what is unfair or improper. With the apparent open interpretation any and everything violates fair chase..it states
> fair chase is the ethical, sportsmanlike, and lawful pursuit of free-ranging wild game animals in a manner which does not give the hunter an improper or unfair advantage over the animal anything done that gives the hunter an advantage is unfair to the animal so with his interpretation he can truly believe that, but I truly believe that the xbow is no more improper or unfair than a compound so therefore must be fair chase



source just proved his stupidity again-fair chase is based on the ethics of hunting game. Source talks about crossbows being ok in their own season

you see the problem with his stupidity don't you. fair as to the game isn't dependent on what you call the season


----------



## Jim C

twogun said:


> If you believe that anti-hunters or nonhunters don't read what goes on here, you are very foolish. If you believe that all the members of AT are hunters, again you are being foolish. I'm sure there are a great many target archers here who do not hunt. I'm also sure they get bored reading the same old stuff in the general archery section and wonder around in the other forums. Arguments like these are like traffic accidents. They draw attention.
> 
> You have told us about your nonhunting neighbors who believe that using crossbows during bowseason is cheating. How do you know? Where did they get this idea? What was your part in the conversation? Did you support their view?
> 
> You have boasted about pressing your anti-crossbow agenda with law makers (who are hunters). Just exactly what did you hope they would do with the "information" you provided them? Did you just want them to hold onto it or did you tell them to only share your perspective with fellow hunters? You can't act the way you do and say the things you do and pretend to not be having an impact on the nonhunting public.
> 
> Answer this. How do you want "the public" to view crossbows? How does NYBI want "the public" to view crossbows? Have you ever shown "the public" pictures of a crossbow, a compound, and a trad bow and asked them what their opinions are?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'll bet you'd be hard pressed to find a Ranger who would feel "demeaned" because someone else claimed to be a Ranger. I also doubt you will find many if any people who feel "demeaned" by illegal immigrants. That's just asinine. You were tyring to be dramatic and made a fool of yourself in the process.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'm not ashamed of bieng a crossbow hunter. I'm proud of what I do. And, guess what. That is all that matters. You don't. You can hurl all the insults you want against crossbow hunters, and it will have absoulutely no impact on what I do or my emotional state. It's too bad that you allow yourself to feel "demeaned" by what other people do.
> 
> 
> 
> I use a crossbow because I like to. I look forward to every fall and have a great time in the woods. That's what it's all about.


you hurt source's sense of self worth by doing that. what else could you hurt-source has already conceded that you don't hurt the herd so what causes him to rage so much?


----------



## oldbhtrnewequip

Jim C said:


> *I say that is stupid. *
> 
> That's an opinion.
> 
> *Hunt with what ever bow you want to. *
> 
> Apparently that isn't a commonly held opinion, although it is changing.
> Its not the way the laws are set up, although they are changing.
> 
> *There are more things to worry about than dividing bowhunters against each other. *
> 
> You're looking at this from a negative angle. I see it in positive light, because I see it from a competitive point of view.
> 
> Are you suggesting that there should be no muzzleloading season?
> 
> I don't see gunhunters fighting about technology choices, except for what
> can be used in muzzleloading season. I've said I certainly don't see all of bowhunting as primitive already, when it comes to technology selection.
> 
> I'm looking to find resolution to this issue of existing division. You know, the division that's been around for centuries because of some very antiquated beliefs.
> 
> I'll say it again.
> As you will recall...I called for a unified season when I first saw the division.
> I got nowhere with it. I'm trying something different. It happens to coincide with this issue of physical disability and self imposed disabling (choosing trad).
> 
> *We don't need a primitive bow season since we can't define it anyway.*
> 
> Whether we need it, or not, is a separate argument from whether we can define it.
> 
> Arguably you know more about bows of all kinds than anyone else here.
> Why can't we define it? We don't know enough of history? I know I don't.
> I think you do.
> 
> *Why should someone with a trad bow and a scent lock suit and top of the line blind get an advantage over someguy sitting in his jeans at the base of a tree with his mathews?*
> 
> Let's not assume that additional equipment will be allowed and provide advantages. Let's concentrate on the first piece of equipment...the bow.
> 
> *I don't buy the competition stuff*
> 
> Never thought you would. We all hunt for different reasons. Just because you don't buy the competition stuff, doesn't mean others don't.
> 
> I'd suggest not telling people the reasons why they should or do hunt in much the same way that you don't want others telling others what they should and shouldn't hunt with.
> 
> *YOU want to compete, come shoot a FITA or go to Nelsonville*
> 
> I spend my time refining my skills in getting the deer in close. I choose to compete against mother nature...and other hunters.
> Some of my conversations go like this....
> 
> "How many deer did you see today?"
> 
> 7
> 
> "Well?"
> 
> Well what?
> 
> "You got one down?"
> 
> Nope...none of 'em were right for taking.
> 
> "oh not close enough huh?"
> 
> no... a couple were
> 
> "well why didn't you take one...too small"
> 
> "no...I thought I'd leave them two for you. When they walked
> under my stand I figured they'd scent me and head straight
> back over to you where they came from."
> 
> 
> Just in case you can't see it my way...that was competitive, sporting, and friendly, between hunters.
> 
> Do you ever 'not' take a shot because its just way too easy?
> Do you ever not take a shot because you know the deer are headed right towards someone you want to take one?
> 
> "What do you mean you didn't see him?"
> "You want to see a picture?...I got one on my cell phone."
> "...and next time I ain't letting him walk by ;-)"


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## oldbhtrnewequip

thesource said:


> Jim -
> 
> You are simply refusing to understand his concept of competition.
> 
> It is not about the antler score, or the number of deer....it is about competing with and getting a deer, in the midst of other hunters who are attempting to do the same.
> 
> The fact that you cannot understand this speaks volumes about you and your position.


you get it.


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## oldbhtrnewequip

oldbhtrnewequip said:


> you get it.


Please don't misinterpret...

you get it...with the exception of this:

"The fact that you cannot understand this speaks volumes about you and your position."

I don't hold the same opinion regarding Jim.

This medium we have isn't perfect and it sometimes takes time and viewing things in different light before things become apparent.


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## Jim C

oldbhtrnewequip said:


> you get it.


if you believe this is what motivates the source, you really don't get it

I reject your claim of competition

it seems the people who call hunting competition among hunters have never really competed in archery

call it what you want-I reject your premise and I suspect many others do to

however I believe you believe it is competition-that at least is honorable even if I think its wrong

I don't find source to be honorable-he belittles other hunters based on bigotry and ignorance


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## oldbhtrnewequip

*Jim*

*Source said:
It is not about the antler score, or the number of deer....it is about competing with and getting a deer, in the midst of other hunters who are attempting to do the same.*

*You said:
many on this board don't consider that competition I don't. *

What would you call it if you were to use one word?


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## oldbhtrnewequip

thesource said:


> I think it is unfair to hunt deer with a crossbow during bow season, because I believe it violates the rules of fair chase.



Any other times?


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## Jim C

oldbhtrnewequip said:


> *Source said:
> It is not about the antler score, or the number of deer....it is about competing with and getting a deer, in the midst of other hunters who are attempting to do the same.*
> 
> *You said:
> many on this board don't consider that competition I don't. *
> 
> What would you call it if you were to use one word?


MISGUIDED

not understanding what hunting is all about

sure, people want to brag about getting bigger bucks

but competition is based on a set of rules where everyone is under the same standard

that is never true in hunting

You shoot a 200 class deer you have been feeding all winter in a pen you haven't beaten me

you have access to prime deer land and I don't-same thing

the problem is that bowhunting is a personal experience and I tire of psychotic nutjobs telling me their experience is going to be ruined based on what sort of bow I use


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## aceoky

*wow......"gone"??*



thesource said:


> Very sad .... boo hoo.
> 
> Your bowhunter bashing (" pro shop a few days before archery season starts ") is noted.
> 
> Are YOU stating it doesn't happen? IF you are once again you're only showing how ignorant you truely are......we all KNOW it's "normal' in every pro shop..prove that wrong, I'll be waiting Your divisiveness is also noted.
> No, yours is, WE are working for inclusion NOT division unlike you few.....
> 
> If bowhunters have not done what it takes .... they will not be successful. That is the filter that Free Range and I have discussed, but you are aparently too dense to understand.
> 
> I am very well aware of "it", and also KNOW that once you're a "decent shot" with a compound that is no longer true.....and most REAL bowhunters also know this
> 
> It takes commitment to be a consistently successful bowhunter....and that is OK. Its part of the deal, and bowhunters understand that.
> 
> As IF you'd know.....YOU bash other hunters including bowhunters, but TRY to accuse me of doing so, you're and that is "laughable" at best....
> 
> Your desire to short circuit that commitment is laughable at best, and tragic at worst.
> Yeah, nothing worse than allowing other archers in the archery season.....at least in YOUR opinion, WE however are still waiting on some FACTS to prove why they shouldn't be, since compounds are....
> 
> 
> 
> You clearly do not understand bowhunting, aceoky. You don't get "it."


IF you think one person here really believes that statement you are far worse off than I first thought......and that sir is not a "good thing"........


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## aceoky

As for the original topic; since they're already allowed when any other archery weapons are, I personally don't see any reason, for "separte seasons" , and in fact hope WE can all focus on being united as bowhunters, regardless of the choice of archery weapon......

Just my opinion and $.02 worth (and easily worth half that much!)


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## oldbhtrnewequip

*Jim*

*You said

if you believe this is what motivates the source, you really don't get it*

All I said was he 'gets' my concept of competition. I wasn't talking about what I think motivates Source. Please don't miscontrue.

*I reject your claim of competition

it seems the people who call hunting competition among hunters have never really competed in archery*

I've been hunting a long time friend. I don't know jack about archery competition. So I can't tell you how archery competition stacks up when comparing and contrasting it with hunting. 

I suspect you might help someone out with a broken piece of their gear in the middle of a tournament against them. I'd suspect that last thing you really want to do is beat the snot out of someone, and you'd rather have a close match. I'd suspect you'd want to just edge someone out in a tough environment, where you both performed to the best of your abilities. It'd still be competitive. If you did beat someone by a wide margin, I'd suggest that it wasn't competitive at all. There's a phrase that some of us competitors use sometimes in certain situations... "No competition."


*call it what you want-I reject your premise and I suspect many others do to

however I believe you believe it is competition-that at least is honorable even if I think its wrong*

Are you suggesting that because this isn't FITA or JOAD or something along those lines that its not competition? I believe that a game of backyard hoops is "competition" every bit as much as March madness. Different players, different levels.

*I don't find source to be honorable-he belittles other hunters based on bigotry and ignorance*


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## Jim C

when you call it competition you justify telling people that their equipment should be banned or limited to because its not fair to others

you hunt for your self. YOu only have to please you-not me

If you get more satisfaction using a self made bow fine with me
don't tell me I can't hunt with my compound or crossbow and my season needs to be limited so you can have extra time because you think you are uncompetitive


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## oldbhtrnewequip

*Jim*

*You called it
MISGUIDED

not understanding what hunting is all about*

did you see my post 352?
I gave you my opinion of what I consider competition to be
and there are some questions in there.

*sure, people want to brag about getting bigger bucks*

There is a lot of money spent on taxidermy every year.

*but competition is based on a set of rules where everyone is under the same standard*

That's your definition of competition. See post 352 for mine.

The operative word you use is under. Now we're getting somewhere. So trad hunters are significantly under the bar. Some argue that crossbow and compound bowhunters are at the top of the bar. Some argue that crossbows are over the top (bar.)

*that is never true in hunting*
It 'could' be if we limited people to using certain types of equipment which is where the anti-crossbow hunters are coming from, for varieties of reasons. 
It _also could be _if we have a limitless standard where almost anything goes and competitors are free to choose the equipment that is most advantageous to them. 

The minute someone says, you're using equipment that is unfair and I want to compete, two choices exist. They upgrade their equipment or the competition downgrades theirs. 

So it can be true.
Hence....the request for definition of equipment to define a primitive season 

*You shoot a 200 class deer you have been feeding all winter in a pen you haven't beaten me you have access to prime deer land and I don't-same thing*

If I'm hunting in the same area, with the same deer as you, I may well "beat you" if my scouting skills are better and we both have access to the same early season. If we can't agree on equipment use, and I don't have access to that season...my scouting skills can be negated. 

*the problem is that bowhunting is a personal experience *

That's true, but there is a community component to it...which you can't deny.

*and I tire of psychotic nutjobs telling me their experience is going to be ruined based on what sort of bow I use*


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## oldbhtrnewequip

*Jim*

*You said
when you call it competition you justify telling people that their equipment should be banned or limited to because its not fair to others*

That's correct. You can have limited competition, or unlimited competition.
Competitors agree to it going either way or choose to not be competitors and disagree and continue to talk about the same arguments over and over and over and never get anywhere.

*you hunt for your self. YOu only have to please you-not me*
True. And when someone questions your abilities Jim, I've seen time and again where you challenge them to a competitive match where you seriously hobble yourself based on equipment. True? Would it please you to compete with someone, with yourself disadvantaged, and come out on top? I suspect the answer is yes.

*If you get more satisfaction using a self made bow fine with me
don't tell me I can't hunt with my compound or crossbow and my season needs to be limited so you can have extra time because you think you are uncompetitive*

The basis of primitive is that the quarry has even more of a chance of escape, because the hunter has chosen to be more self limiting. If all hunters
choose to self limit to the same degree...then it is also competitive between hunters. 

I see where we should/could draw multiple lines, in the name of sport.
I think archery compeition in which you engage draws multiple lines.

Remember, I said, that it would be up to each DNR to decide if/when and how a primitive season would be implemented. It could be right smack in the middle of bow season, or on the tail end. 

Its working for the gun hunters.

So ... equipment suggestions?


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## Jim C

oldbhtrnewequip said:


> *You said
> when you call it competition you justify telling people that their equipment should be banned or limited to because its not fair to others*
> 
> That's correct. You can have limited competition, or unlimited competition.
> Competitors agree to it going either way or choose to not be competitors and disagree and continue to talk about the same arguments over and over and over and never get anywhere.
> 
> *you hunt for your self. YOu only have to please you-not me*
> True. And when someone questions your abilities Jim, I've seen time and again where you challenge them to a competitive match where you seriously hobble yourself based on equipment. True? Would it please you to compete with someone, with yourself disadvantaged, and come out on top? I suspect the answer is yes.
> 
> *If you get more satisfaction using a self made bow fine with me
> don't tell me I can't hunt with my compound or crossbow and my season needs to be limited so you can have extra time because you think you are uncompetitive*
> 
> The basis of primitive is that the quarry has even more of a chance of escape, because the hunter has chosen to be more self limiting. If all hunters
> choose to self limit to the same degree...then it is also competitive between hunters.
> 
> I see where we should/could draw multiple lines, in the name of sport.
> I think archery compeition in which you engage draws multiple lines.
> 
> Remember, I said, that it would be up to each DNR to decide if/when and how a primitive season would be implemented. It could be right smack in the middle of bow season, or on the tail end.
> 
> Its working for the gun hunters.
> 
> So ... equipment suggestions?


none-if its a bow -be it crossbow compound bow or recurve/long bow its in bow season

we don't need a season for release users
mechanical broadhead users
carbon arrow users
handmade wood arrow users
lit sight pin users

one archery season is all we need and archery apartheid is what spawns the nonsense of the source


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## oldbhtrnewequip

*thanks for your time!!*

I appreciate it.


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## thesource

twogun said:


> I'll bet you'd be hard pressed to find a Ranger who would feel "demeaned" because someone else claimed to be a Ranger. I also doubt you will find many if any people who feel "demeaned" by illegal immigrants. That's just asinine. You were tyring to be dramatic and made a fool of yourself in the process.


This shows that you know very little about the larger world.

The Navy Seals have a group that hunts down imposters and exposes them for pretending to be seals - happened to a lawmaker just last year. It seems obvioused that they are offended by those people pretending to be what they are not.

Did you miss all the protests the last few weeks over illegal immigration? Did you not see the counter protests of LEGAL immigrants who felt demeaned by the illegals' demonstrations?

Its pretty obvious who looks foolish .


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## thesource

OLDBHTR -

I think you have done an admirable job explaining what "competition" means when applied to hunting, and I envy your patience in trying to articulate the implications of competition on hunting rules and seasons.

Thank you for framing the discussion in a much more civilized manner than is typical.

You have made some excellent points that I would enjoy discussing further with you. I apologize for jumping to the conclusion that you were just looking for a short circuit to get crossbows into bowseason. It is obvious from your thoughtful responses that you are struggling with balancing opportunity with fairness....and that makes sense to me.

Let's discuss what is really at the very core of the issue. You said it perfectly when you said:



oldbhtrnewequip said:


> The minute someone says, you're using equipment that is unfair and I want to compete, two choices exist. They upgrade their equipment or the competition downgrades theirs.


This is, indeed, the biggest problem. This is why crossbows hurt bowhunting. If crossbows are allowed, many will "upgrade" to the crossbow to ensure the best chance possible to get a deer. While this is great for crossbow manufacturers and organizations, and (to be honest) is probably a net neutral for "archery", it weakens bowhunting.

Ohio is actually an example of this in real life, where more "archers" use crossbows than bows and bowhunters have been growing at a rate below the national average.

In VA, the DNR estimates that 7000 bowhunters switched to compounds last year. It seems likely that more will continue to switch to a crossbow to "keep up" with the others.

It seems quite likely that new "archers" will gravitate toward the crossbow wherever they are legal, since they realize crossbows as advantaged.

Where does that leave bowhunting? Weakened, I believe. Diminished, for certain. Diluted, absolutely.

There will always be those of who "downgrade" our equipment, as you put it, for additional challenge or to get closer to bowhunting's roots and heritage. But that number is, and will continue to be, fairly small when viewed against archery as a whole.


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## thesource

Jim C said:


> when you call it competition you justify telling people that their equipment should be banned or limited to because its not fair to others


And THAT is why Jim cannot admit that it exists. He then has to accomodate rules and fair play.

It is counter to his agenda.


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## Jim C

thesource said:


> And THAT is why Jim cannot admit that it exists. He then has to accomodate rules and fair play.
> 
> It is counter to his agenda.


poor Source-you want to exclude anyone you think is going to get your deer or make your status as a supposed bowhunter suspect in the eyes of some cult.


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## fasst

Closed per Authors request.


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