# ATA/Brace/Draw length discussion



## Bees (Jan 28, 2003)

Beats me, but here's a thread for you to read. forgiveness formula. 

http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=1681136


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

I base my ata on what I want, nothing less than 37 1/2" and prefer 38+. My Shadowcat at 41 1/2" was not too long. My 40 1/4" bow is wonderful.
Now, for those short people, Erika Anschutz, 2006 Top Young Female Archer in the United States and doing a lot more since, is not exactly tall and her Hoyt was of 38" ata. I have a few pictures of her. I don't which is taller, her or her bow.

I've had several that wanted badly to buy my Shadowcats, short people, but the Shadowcats just plain drew too long.

I've got a super shooter 33 1/2" bow, superbly accurate out to 60 and 65 yard, longest I've shot it. It's hanging in the garage somewhere.

Bottom line; You like it, you "fit" it to you, it should shoot just fine. By large, 35/36" ata bows are acceptable, but longer is more seen. 

montigre, in this forum, her bow is none too short by the picture she posted.


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## Tooltech (Jun 19, 2011)

I like my 40" ATA OK R8-40 CST bows for target work. I do not use long side / aft stabilizers. The main long rod is 30" with 4 oz end weight for my 3D / Field bow and 34" main rod without weight for my indoor rig. Both bows have a short 6 oz weight under and to the side of the grip to balance out the extension sight weight.

My 33 1/2" ATA bow can be made as stable feeling as my 40" ATA bows by employing extension levers and weight. I believe that shorter ATA bows can be made stable for target endeavors.


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## Mahly (Dec 18, 2002)

I think there is a LOTS more involved than a simple formula can solve.
How parallel are the limbs? More parallel means more vertical movement, less parallel means more horizontal movement.
You would have to measure only at full draw.
What about body structure? Wide shoulders/ short arms and vice versa.
For me, I look for a bow with string angle in mind. Not so much brace, or even ATA, but what does the string look like at full draw.
Does the string hit my contact points without me having to make big adjustments? (Tip of nose, corner of mouth etc.)
It's hard for me to find bows that fit ME correctly... That I can afford.
You can use a formula to get close, but there are too many variable to consider for any formula to be very accurate. They can get you in the ball park, but not much more IMHO.
E.g. I have a 31.5" draw. I haven't seen a bow under 35" ATA feels right to me. My next bow will likely be 40"+
Until I get that, I can make adjustments (the shorter the ATA, or more accurately the sharper the string angle, the shorter loop, and longer draw) to get it useable.
Given the size of most competition recurves (yes, I know whole different thing vs compound and a release) I would generally think a little longer ATA would work better for most than a little shorter.


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## ron w (Jan 5, 2013)

the idea of a "perfect ATA by definition of draw length", doesn't really apply beyond the parameters of what string angles that ATA produces and where those angles establish the peep at anchor, in relation to your eyesight and peep diameter. the further from your eye the peep is, the harder it is to focus through and the larger an orifice you need to focus through it. 
if any thing, there might be a relationship equation that would define when an ATA is too short to put the peep in good location. short ATA's produce high string angles and excessively distant peep locations, making large peeps necessary for focus through them. you really can't have the peep too close to your eye.....the closer it is, the easier to focus through a smaller peep, which will minimize alignment problems.
bottom line, there is no "perfect focal distance for a peep orifice, because peep orifices are readily changeable to suit your eyesight and peep distance from the eye. the point of vanishing advantage is in the peep moving further from the eye, not closer, and not at any one specific distance, for any one specific orifice size, because of the fact that different peep sizes are readily available and everyone's eyesight is different.
the "disadvantage" comes when the peep has to be enlarged to the point that small deviations in concentric alignment go unnoticed. as the peep, moves further from the eye, the aforementioned "disadvantage", applies as the peep moves closer to the eye, that disadvantage doesn't apply, because focus through the peep's orifice continues to improve, until the peep would theoretically be in contact with the eye, at which point, there would be no advantage to having a peep and there would be no peep focal distance involved.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

Hoyt_27 said:


> discus perfect ATA for your draw length for this competition or this competition. like if you are shooting indoor 20 yard vegas and you have a certain draw length then this ATA (should) be optimal for you and your scores. Also same for field, 3D, outdoor 50m etc. I know some will say for indoor longest ATA is best but I do not think that is true because if you have a 39" ATA bow and a 25.5" draw length you are going to have poor string angle and your valley is not going to be what it should be.


First of all,
"valley" has zero to do with ATA and the draw length.

With a cam designed properly for the 25.5-inch draw length,
the "valley feel" is completely related to the cam shape,
the string over-wrap around the cam, etc.

Now,
if you take a 27-inch draw length cam
and you SHORT STRING the cam to deliver 25.5-inches of draw length,
then...

yup,
you will have ZERO valley.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

Hoyt_27 said:


> discus perfect ATA for your draw length for this competition or this competition. like if you are shooting indoor 20 yard vegas and you have a certain draw length then this ATA (should) be optimal for you and your scores. Also same for field, 3D, outdoor 50m etc. I know some will say for indoor longest ATA is best but I do not think that is true because if you have a 39" ATA bow and a 25.5" draw length you are going to have poor string angle and your valley is not going to be what it should be.


Sooo,
if you are a shooter who MUST have the string touch the TIP of your nose
and the string MUST cross the corner of your mouth...

well,
then there is basically only ONE string angle,
at full draw
that will meet this requirement.

SHORT nose?
Then, you will need a LARGER string angle, 
which means a LONGER ATA
so the string, at full draw, touches your nose
and the string crosses the corner of your mouth.

LONG LONG nose?

Well,
Then, you will need a MEDIUM string angle, 
which means a MEDIUM ATA
so the string, at full draw, touches your nose
and the string crosses the corner of your mouth.

Average NOSE?
SHORT ATA bow?

NOT possible to have the string touch nose
and cross corner of mouth
and reach your TRUE accuracy potential.

MUST allow the string to NOT touch nose
when shooting the popular SHORT ATA bows.

Example

STRING touches nose.
SHORT ATA bow.
NOCK is ridiculously way back on his head.
He was holding 12-INCHES LOW
and ready to SELL his bow.



SAME bow.
NO change in draw length.
Just LOTS of change in form.

STRING no longer touches nose.
BIG bend in bow arm elbow is now GONE.
Nock slides WAY forwards on head, with ZERO bend bow arm.





With NEW form,
with string NOT touching nose,
he is no longer holding 12-INCHES LOW
and is now shooting MUCH better.

20 yards.



30 yards, and busting nocks.



So,
the ANSWER is NOT ALWAYS,
string touching nose.

If you MUST have string touching nose,
and
if you MUST have string crossing corner of mouth,
SHORT ATA bows are not for you.


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## Tooltech (Jun 19, 2011)

I am 71" tall, 29" draw, European " Oval " face shape with medium length Nose. The ATA that fits me the best is 40" ( small Cams ). The Brace is 8.2" which is more forgiving when I get tired. The 40" ATA helps my vertical orientation and the slightly reflexed riser with 8.2" brace helps my lateral orientation. 

I also shoot a bow which has a reflexed riser, 6 3/4" brace and 33 1/2" ATA. This configuration shoots well until I start to get fatigued. This bow requires extra effort to aim and shoot. The 40" bow allows me to focus on shot sequence and target concentration.

The bow must fit your physical frame and form style IMO.


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## bigHUN (Feb 5, 2006)

Long-or-short ATA.....We talk about string angle, string touching nose or corner of the mouth, the release elbow or bow arm bend and things like that....one way of thinking...
Me, I like the longer, at least 40" ATA bow, because 
- the distance pupil-to-peep is shorter
- so I can use 29mm scopes with a smallest peep aperture size available for outdoors day around....with a 0.140" pin (made by Shrewd FYI) (9" Shibuya extended to 7" is my norm)
- I am short sighted and can't see a smaller pin (small fiber pins blur out and occasionally I see 3 of them floating in a triangle shape ), can't use dots or rings for FITA (because in the rain must take out the lens) or Field (dot/ring for hunter face? nah, that won't work), and the truespot lenses are most friendly for indoor rings only.
- for both FITA and Field I have several 29mm scopes pre-set, so in more or less light conditions I can easier center the scope OD inside my peep if the string angle is "bigger". This I was struggling a bit with my DST38, great bow/great hold/great speed but the string angle is not *my best fit* for long - many hours of shooting....


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## ron w (Jan 5, 2013)

this sort pf thread will be shot-lived, because someone will get on here and explain why it's not "correct' to think the way the OP is thinking. then people won't want to learn anything of any real value about archery, and the thread will die.
it's probably already happened....that's just the way ArcheryTalk rolls.


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

ron, I think the OP's thought or reasoning has already been bashed or slashed. He asked for discussion and hasn't backed up his claim or replied since posting. Anyone Posting and not replying in some manner, I get irked.

He noted all shooting, Indoor, 3D, Field, Outdoor. No, not a good indoor shooter, but I've done as well in all venues with a 37 1/2" ata bow as I have with bows up to 41 1/2" ata. Brace height has varied from a low 6 3/8" to 8". The majority of all my shooting has been with 75% letoff, some at 80% and some at 70%, not the proclaimed magic 60/65%. Some one would have to elaborate on valley effect for the short draw person. It would seem the valley of the cam giving draw length for a short draw person would follow as does cams giving longer draw length, thus, no differing effect.

And again, as another noted, equipment being the center of topic. We fling a lot of arrows and somewhere along the line we get use to shooting the bow. Only bow I did not take a liking to, a 2005 Bowtech Old Glory, but I shot it as well as I did any other bow I've owned. Bought it, shot it, used it for Indoor target, one 3D and sold it. It was 4 months old.

And compounds bows of old, 48 and 50" ata. We got along with them.


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## Mahly (Dec 18, 2002)

With my draw length, I would certainly like to see something closer to the ATA lengths of days past.


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## Kstigall (Feb 24, 2004)

I have a 26" draw length at the very most. I shot my first 60 X games with a 36" a-to-a, 6" brace "speed" bow with a BHFS set up.
The last couple of years I've been using a 37.25" PSE Supra and 36" Phenom. I've shot some very good scores with both bows.

I'm currently using a Supra ME exclusively for spots. In all honesty the bow _feels_ as though the a-to-a is too long but my first two targets of this indoor season were damn good! I go with what works so I guess 37.25" a-to-a is NOT too long for my nubby draw. That is NOT to say that a certain 34"-35" a-to-a bow may not make the starting line up before January. I know anything longer than the Supra would feel and shoot like a wet noodle in my hands!


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