# Sweetspot pro pressure VS what it reveals from the pros..



## Xwind

Hi all !

So, since I started shooting last year, I've learned that the "proper" way to execute back tension shot is to get on the wall and slowly increase the tension on that wall until the shot break...

And it makes sense when you see people telling that you need to use a resistance release to learn that "proper" technique of increasing the tension until the shot break etc... (Dudley)...

BUT ! Came the SweetSpot Pro Pressure..used by some pros including Jesse Broadwater... 

That new thing mesure your preload and tells you when you have enough..no more no less...with a green light. When you look at the pros shooting that new gadget, you see the light in their scope go from nothing (not enough tension) to green (good tension) to red (too much tension) back and forth. They are not using it like a clicker. (ex. When it turns green its go time)..... And when you look at the graph on the app. you see a straight steady line..not a line going up.

That tells me that the pros are definitively having tension against the wall...but they are not really looking to increase it...they try to be steady with it...and thats something I heard from a couple pros...

In theory, if we could switch Jesse's back tension release to a resistance release mid-shot, it would never fire...

Is "steady back tension" the new school way to shoot ? If so, what will happen to resistance release ?


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## Mahly

Different strokes for different folks.
Many pros either relax their hand or actively manipulate their hand when shooting with a hinge.


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## lees

Yep, just another way to shoot and it's all whatever works the best for you. I'm a puller, so my style is a steady increase of pressure into the back wall. A resistance release is appropriate for that shot style, as is the pull-the-release-into-the-trigger method of getting a release to go off "by itself".

But many hold against the wall and make the release go off in some other way, say by rotating the release body or even just slowly squeezing the trigger. 

The SweetSpot Pro device strikes me as an additional method of gathering telemetry (I guess you could call it) on the amount of pressure. With a resistance release, to me it would just be supplemental information, but if you shoot another style where you have to manage the pressure at which the release goes off, it looks like an awesome tool to me. Meaning, keeping consistent on how much pressure you're really at when your release window occurs.... 

But on the topic of pressure, some are pullers and well.. some aren't .

lee.


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## rattlinman

Mahly said:


> Different strokes for different folks.
> Many pros either relax their hand or actively manipulate their hand when shooting with a hinge.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


Exactly, Times have changed and the equipment we are using has changed dramatically! Many of the new bows with limb stops feel certainly different form the spongy wall of a 2-cam bow, so of course we should expect the way we execute a release, any release, should change. Most I imagine are using the relaxation method of hinge release execution over pulling the strings off of a limb stop bow. I know that for me personally I struggle with a limb stop bow nad always choose cable stop models because of this method.


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## Padgett

First of all I didn't know this little device existed, so cool.

Second, I am not surprised at the discussion that we are having.


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## erdman41

If you creep tune a Hoyt you can pull soft into the wall or hard into the wall and hit exactly the same vertically.

So is this more for lefts and rights??? 

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## Padgett

I have to admit that 100% of my training is based on equalizing or balancing out my execution, I do add pressure to the wall but at the exact same time I have give in my fingers that offsets that pressure. 

I do not shoot well when I have pressure changes in my system, when I have a pressure loss that is when I would have a dip bang out the bottom and when I add a bunch of pressure I get pulled off to the side or out the top. 

Right now I am committed to a thumb trigger for the first time ever and am not shooting my hinges at all, So learning how to come to anchor and add a nice amount of preload to the wall so my fingers feel engaged was my first goal. Then my second goal was to learn how to add a nice smooth amount of pressure to the wall and at the same time allow the hand to give a little so the handle could move forward and fire the thumb trigger since the thumb is staying still. The training is going well and I am finding that the amount of movement in my whole system is less than when I am shooting hinges, everything is more subtle. Which is nice because the more subtle things are it is easier to regulate the pressures.


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## Bobmuley

erdman41 said:


> If you creep tune a Hoyt you can pull soft into the wall or hard into the wall and hit exactly the same vertically.
> 
> So is this more for lefts and rights???
> 
> Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk


That's for any hybrid or two cam bow....yet we still miss because of the "dip bang" phenomena where the release fires at the exact wrong time that you don't want it to. 

I don't know how will this will work to stop it, will find out the end of May, but at least it will have a warning..."YOU'RE ABOUT TO MISS LOW DUDE" if the lights go out.


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## Padgett

If you choose to not have any give or yield in your hand you are pretty much setting yourself up to a beyond fast hinge setting or a very very light trigger setting on the thumb trigger. I have shot my hinge this way in the past and the fear of misfires will consume you and it just isn't worth it. All that work you did with the resistance release is worthless if your hand is frozen up and stiff. The resistance releases are great at teaching how to totally engage the back tension muscles so they are firing on all 8 cylinders but the minute you move back over to a hinge or thumb trigger you have to combine that back tension with some form of yielding so that you are producing rotation with the hinge and the handle moving forward as the thumb trigger stays put.

I have trained with yielding for years now with both hinges and thumb triggers and it has tons of potential to fire releases and send the arrow on its way. I am having the most luck with partial yields when it comes to accuracy, when I yield all of my fingers I produce more rotation etc but I also don't feel as strong and engaged. So, by only yielding some of the fingers and using the other ones to apply pressure I am strong with fully engaged fingers and I can just let one or two of them give. I am actually having much more luck with the "Give" term than I am relaxing or yielding. It is the same stinking thing but when I tell myself to squeeze into the wall while letting my index finger give a little I can do that much more solid and not feel weak.


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## redman

I have one on order I will give it a try. Been looking for some thing new to try . I bet this will work great when shooting up and down hills when it is hard for me to get on the back wall the same as on level ground ? Like to see some one come out with a peep sight that I can change the size of the hole with out any tools just a turn of knob on top of peep to make hole bigger or smaller


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## Bobmuley

Xwind said:


> Hi all !
> 
> So, since I started shooting last year, I've learned that the "proper" way to execute back tension shot is to get on the wall and slowly increase the tension on that wall until the shot break...
> 
> And it makes sense when you see people telling that you need to use a resistance release to learn that "proper" technique of increasing the tension until the shot break etc... (Dudley)...
> 
> BUT ! Came the SweetSpot Pro Pressure..used by some pros including Jesse Broadwater...
> 
> That new thing mesure your preload and tells you when you have enough..no more no less...with a green light. When you look at the pros shooting that new gadget, you see the light in their scope go from nothing (not enough tension) to green (good tension) to red (too much tension) back and forth. They are not using it like a clicker. (ex. When it turns green its go time)..... And when you look at the graph on the app. you see a straight steady line..not a line going up.
> 
> That tells me that the pros are definitively having tension against the wall...but they are not really looking to increase it...they try to be steady with it...and thats something I heard from a couple pros...
> 
> In theory, if we could switch Jesse's back tension release to a resistance release mid-shot, it would never fire...
> 
> *Is "steady back tension" the new school way to shoot ?* If so, what will happen to resistance release ?


It's at least 25 years old. 

Randy Ulmer was the first person I noticed manipulating a release back in the early 90s.


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## SonnyThomas

Bobmuley said:


> It's at least 25 years old.
> 
> Randy Ulmer was the first person I noticed manipulating a release back in the early 90s.


Yes, manipulation has been discussed both here and in General Archery Discussion and discussed near to death. When I first started with a hinge it was true back tension and today it's relaxing or yielding. Seems true back tension works better with cable stops (that little bit of give) and manipulation with limb stops (no give). Seems both work when I do things right.


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## Bobmuley

Xwind said:


> Hi all !
> 
> So, since I started shooting last year, I've learned that the "proper" way to execute back tension shot is to get on the wall and slowly increase the tension on that wall until the shot break...
> 
> And it makes sense when you see people telling that you need to use a resistance release to learn that "proper" technique of increasing the tension until the shot break etc... (Dudley)...
> 
> BUT ! Came the SweetSpot Pro Pressure..used by some pros including Jesse Broadwater...
> 
> That new thing mesure your preload and tells you when you have enough..no more no less...with a green light. When you look at the pros shooting that new gadget, you see the light in their scope go from nothing (not enough tension) to green (good tension) to red (too much tension) back and forth. They are not using it like a clicker. (ex. When it turns green its go time)..... And when you look at the graph on the app. you see a straight steady line..not a line going up.
> 
> That tells me that the pros are definitively having tension against the wall...but they are not really looking to increase it...they try to be steady with it...and thats something I heard from a couple pros...
> 
> In theory, if we could switch Jesse's back tension release to a resistance release mid-shot, it would never fire...
> 
> Is "steady back tension" the new school way to shoot ? If so, what will happen to resistance release ?


I've talked and texted with Donnie about this. This is my interpretation of what he's explained to me in relation to how the two methods are relevant to the Sweetspot.






So with the "holding" or "yielding" techniques the shooter tries to live in the pressure zone between green and red lights. obviously the narrower the difference between those zones are the more consistent the shot, but also the most difficult to maintain.







This one is for those that build pressure through back tension, true tension, etc. You still have a "sweetspot" of repeatable pressure, you're just crossing the zone at a more acute angle and aren't trying to dwell in it. It'd be interesting to see Kris Schaf's lines.

I think either one of them is "proper" and bet you'd have pretty mixed results if you took the top 20 guys in any particular discipline on whether it's a hold/relax/manipulate or keep pulling. Some do both!


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## SonnyThomas

Thinking to and just about just that, thinking to. I've worked at the kitchen table using just a heavy string with loop tied in the end and using my Stan Jet Black. I pull with equal pressure (so to speak) on the index, middle and ring finger with thumb holding on to the pulling post barrel. Tension like hold into the wall and then ease off the thumb. With the thumb coming off the barrel you can see the "equal" finger pressure make the hinge rotate that little bit. I still have X amount of drawing pressure on the fingers. Still pulling I relax hand/fingers and the hinge fires. Same thing over again, but pull that little extra and hinge fires. So out to the garage and try the same thing over using my bow. I even went so far as to shoot through paper at distances of 6 thru 12 feet. Bullet hole every time using both my Stan Jet Black and Stan Shootoff. Now, I had keep resetting my Shootoff until I got the results of the Jet Black. I had PMed with Kent Stigall some time back. Yep, you want the trigger set heavy enough on a thumb release that you can a feel of the barrel and the release not fire. Well, I'd been setting my trigger heavier and heavier and actually lightened the trigger by almost 1 1/2 turns of the set screw.
This also gave me the opportunity to try the Bohning X vane 2 1/4" Shield cuts I had just fletched. Just about as perfect a bullet hole as one could want with the Bohning 3" X vane Parabolic and 2 1/4" Shield cut...... Odd thing of vanes, there is only 1 1/2 grs difference between the Parabolic and the lighter Shield cut, not 3 1/2 grs as per Bohning's catalog.


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## Ned250

Bobmuley said:


> I've talked and texted with Donnie about this. This is my interpretation of what he's explained to me in relation to how the two methods are relevant to the Sweetspot.
> View attachment 6445237
> So with the "holding" or "yielding" techniques the shooter tries to live in the pressure zone between green and red lights. obviously the narrower the difference between those zones are the more consistent the shot, but also the most difficult to maintain.
> 
> View attachment 6445247
> This one is for those that build pressure through back tension, true tension, etc. You still have a "sweetspot" of repeatable pressure, you're just crossing the zone at a more acute angle and aren't trying to dwell in it. It'd be interesting to see Kris Schaf's lines.
> 
> I think either one of them is "proper" and bet you'd have pretty mixed results if you took the top 20 guys in any particular discipline on whether it's a hold/relax/manipulate or keep pulling. Some do both!


Fantastic explanation - that's how I interpreted their videos.

I'd love to have one for training, but fear I'd become obsessed with the data. #datanerd


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## Xwind

I heard that Jesse's and Donnie's data from the last ASA was monitored by BowJunky and they will make it availlable to watch ! Should be pretty interresting !


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## stazmaniac

Sound like it would be a great tool to use along with a true back tension release, for training and finding the perfect shot/feel


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## "TheBlindArcher"

Wonder if one could be rigged with two, different frequency, piezo buzzers... Blind accessibility.


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## Bobmuley

"TheBlindArcher" said:


> Wonder if one could be rigged with two, different frequency, piezo buzzers... Blind accessibility.


I'm sure it could.


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## "TheBlindArcher"

Also wonder, might this be a cause for "target panic" of sorts for some.... Sort of "fire on the green..." Similar to those who have issues with a release cllick.


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## Padgett

I was just thinking about a person shooting a resistance release, They could have it set up to where seeing green is when they let off the thumb peg safety and then red is where it fires. This would allow them to come to anchor and add some nice preload to the wall until they see green or let off some preload if they set up to solid and get back to green. Then once they see green they let off the peg and execute the shot getting the pressure built up to red where it fires.


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## Garceau

In archery the number one thing to score well is consistency..... it doesnt matter if you pull the limbs off, or if you manipulate the release, or have a nice gradual increase in tension. Consistency.......

this tool will help you develop consistency by having a measurable data point. Add the shot to score and you will over time see where you are the most consistent, and accurate and its something to combine into a training regime. Then you work on that, and you can actually check that with the app........ 

I am a gadget geek and many times can overthink the simplest things in archery. But I think this is a phenomenal tool and will go a long ways into a person developing "his or her shot" by doing so you will be able to see your tendencies.......address them and KNOW what was happening and why things were happening the way they did.


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## redman

I think it will be a good tool set up draw length it will tell you what draw length you are the most consistent at . Great for shooting on hills when draw length has to be right .


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## 3D Pinwheeler

Curious if you fellas think this should be used in competitions? 
I think its a great tool for training but it seems a bit much for comps. imo

I do realize it is legal to use currently.


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## Bobmuley

3D Pinwheeler said:


> Curious if you fellas think this should be used in competitions?
> I think its a great tool for training but it seems a bit much for comps. imo
> 
> I do realize it is legal to use currently.


I have one on order: I think it's too much for me to process in competition. Of course that's based off of internet reviews from others and only the briefest of knowledge about it. 

As far as from a regulatory standpoint, I think it's too early to determine if it gives an unfair advantage. My current viewpoint is that it would be a competitive detriment by distraction. I say let it play out.


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## ApostateTapir

3D Pinwheeler said:


> Curious if you fellas think this should be used in competitions?
> I think its a great tool for training but it seems a bit much for comps. imo
> 
> I do realize it is legal to use currently.


Sure, no different than a recurve clicker IMO.


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## lees

Bobmuley said:


> I have one on order: I think it's too much for me to process in competition. Of course that's based off of internet reviews from others and only the briefest of knowledge about it.
> 
> As far as from a regulatory standpoint, I think it's too early to determine if it gives an unfair advantage. My current viewpoint is that it would be a competitive detriment by distraction. I say let it play out.


Agree with Bob. It may only shake out a select few with enough CPU power in their heads to manage yet another source of information during their shot execution - namely not someone lacking in that area such as myself . 

Padgett has a neat suggestion for using it as a training/setup aid for a resistance release, but that too might be a sledge hammer approach when just a jewler's hammer - a handheld bowscale to set it for example - is needed. At some point, the preload/release safety/pull part of the shot with a resistance release becomes automatic and you stop thinking about it or needing any training aids with it. I would hate to think such an expensive device would simply become no longer needed once you get the hang of your release aid and not having to consciously deal with that part of it anymore. 

But it could become a really significant advantage too. Maybe another class would have to be created for it - wouldn't that be just awesome? 

lee.


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## SonnyThomas

Like most in here I've only read of a couple write-ups of this new "toy." I have no idea of regulates the blank, red and green lights. 

It's been a long, long...just before December of 2003. We had machines with "brains." Way before Bruce Willis hit the big screen with Die Hard. Remember; "Cute toy."? Yep, we had touch screens before Die Hard.

We also had ACP. Adaptive Control Parameter. Okay, a tool is made to cut at a certain feed rate. ACPs controlled feed rate. Hard iron and the ACP would cut back the feed or if a tool was wearing down ACP would cut back the feed. We started with pretty good guesses of ACP for a tool. We then monitored the actual stress. A formula was applied to the actual stress and then took this and edited the program. We then could run 100% with good tool life and then the control would take over for hard material or tool wear. I still have my books for the TC-40 Cincinnati with 950 control. TC standing for Traveling Column. 40 standing for motor horsepower, but could range up to 50 horsepower. 50 horsepower was choice of the control, not human intervention. My pair of machines was valued at $7,000,000.00. Wonder what machines are capable of now, going 15 years after I retired.

Just rattling here. I'd think one would have to find optimum (over several shots) and put values in for the red and green lights. I'd think no light is standard, bow at rest or not reaching the minus side of optimum (?). Even so there will be that +/- of optimum. Green is great and red set to what, 2 pound, 3 pounds? 

Okay, I don't know this toy. The TC-40 could be programmed to give override that would take feed rate way down, say .008" per revolution down to .001" per rev and even have the machine stop. So at 4 pounds the red comes on?


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## Garceau

I think we can safely say it primarily is a training aid. But thats not to say that training isnt happening in the middle of a competition.

You need to spend some time with this prior to any valuable use in competition. You need to shoot and catalog the scores and how that correlates to the amount of pressure applied to the bow. This needs to be done over a long period of time to work out which rounds have the best scoring average and what the pressure was during those rounds. Then see how you are doing in competition - are you weaker or too strong, what are your scores doing?

Etc...... I hoped to talk with Donnie in Paris but never ran across him. I talked to some of his friends that are in the know with this and put a few things together relating to this.


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## SonnyThomas

^^^ Agree.... But then how to improve on greatness? The cream of the crop...just a flip of the coin of who is going podium.


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## redman

They will be out soon looks like a great tool


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## redman

I was told that they will be out at the end of next week ?


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## Bobmuley

redman said:


> I was told that they will be out at the end of next week ?


6/12 is the latest email I received. 


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## The Swami

Bobmuley said:


> 6/12 is the latest email I received.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


So...gonna take some food out of your cat's mouth eh? You will have to show me what this thing is when you get it.


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## Garceau

I got mine the other day - unfortunately I got one of the batches with bad sensors. Got a hold of Donnie and he shipped another one out saturday. Hoping it will be here today, maybe tomorrow.


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## Bobmuley

I got mine Friday but had a 1500 round this weekend and didn't want to play with it right out of the gate. Everything is curing now and will run it this evening.


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## wilkinsonk

I got mine last week and like you had a tournament coming up the following weekend. Moving truck is here and archery is boxed up, so I will not have any experience with my Sweet Spot Pro until early July.

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## Scottspot50

Don’t think it would be legal in USA Archery.


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## wilkinsonk

Scottspot50 said:


> Don’t think it would be legal in USA Archery.


It's not legal for competition in WA/USA Archery, however it is still a great training device.

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## knarrly

wilkinsonk said:


> It's not legal for competition in WA/USA Archery, however it is still a great training device.
> 
> Sent from my XT1635-02 using Tapatalk


I was wondering about that with the no electronics (except lights) clause in those orgs. I'm assuming no such wording in ASA (and IBO but no coverage of those so hard to tell) events since have seen them being used in ASA shoot offs.


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## redman

I got my sensor mounted and it works great I am useing it to help me with dip bang it works great .


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## Rick!

Bobmuley said:


> I've talked and texted with Donnie about this. This is my interpretation of what he's explained to me in relation to how the two methods are relevant to the Sweetspot.
> View attachment 6445237
> So with the "holding" or "yielding" techniques the shooter tries to live in the pressure zone between green and red lights. obviously the narrower the difference between those zones are the more consistent the shot, but also the most difficult to maintain.
> 
> View attachment 6445247
> This one is for those that build pressure through back tension, true tension, etc. You still have a "sweetspot" of repeatable pressure, you're just crossing the zone at a more acute angle and aren't trying to dwell in it. It'd be interesting to see Kris Schaf's lines.
> 
> I think either one of them is "proper" and bet you'd have pretty mixed results if you took the top 20 guys in any particular discipline on whether it's a hold/relax/manipulate or keep pulling. Some do both!


The strain gauges and filters appear to smooth out a lot of this. I execute on the aggressive side but the graph stays pretty level, except when letting down.











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