# Lets Have a Discussion: Cock Feather Orientation



## BarneySlayer (Feb 28, 2009)

I guess it depends on the expert... 

Assuming the arrow is tuned, I am only concerned about the shelf I shoot off of, in which case, I am not turning cock feather in or out, but rather so that if the feathers brush the shelf, they do so that they're laying as flat to the shelf as possible.

With left wing 'helical' (hypoid?), this looks like cock feather out, towards the end of the feather, but in the front, the geometry would be more like cock feather up. This seems to work better for me, shooting off the shelf, then either cock feather in or out.


----------



## DDSHOOTER (Aug 22, 2005)

Why not up or four Fletcher?
Dan


----------



## patrick2cents (Jan 26, 2014)

I shoot cock feather in for higher-profile 5" feathers. I started noticing a contact region just outboard my built up rest where the lower hen feather was hitting the riser and rest (velcro rest built up with a toothpick). If I shoot cock feather in, there is enough clearance laterally to avoid cock feather contact with the strike plate, and since the hen is further outboard, it clears the riser and rest. If I shoot cock out, there is not enough clearance vertically or horizontally to clear the hen.

Anyhow, that's how I cracked that nut. Others will likely have a different situation.


----------



## Easykeeper (Jan 2, 2003)

I don't notice any difference shooting cock feather in or out, or any other orientation for that matter. I think your reasoning is sound. 

I shoot cock feather out simply because cock feather in looks weird to me. Besides, I don't really notice a difference.


----------



## xxxJakkxxx (Apr 17, 2014)

I don't see any difference with Out, Up or Down. Right now I'm doing out because that's how my Jig does it by default and I want to be able to easily replace 1 when it comes off. If the arrow is properly flexing and passes by without contact, there's no reason that the orientation should matter. It seems like just consistency would matter. If you shoot cock out, then always shoot cock out, if you shoot cock up, then always shoot cock up.

It may just be a rule of thumb to make sure everyone has consistency rather than it actually being the only and best way. If it weren't a rule of thumb, only the most anal of archers would worry about orientation and people would have a quiver full of a mixture and they wouldn't worry about how they nocked them.


...I am way too childish because I giggled a lot at the "cock out, cock up" part of my post....


----------



## voodoofire1 (Jan 24, 2006)

Cock feather in for me, just makes sense.


----------



## GEREP (May 6, 2003)

DDSHOOTER said:


> Why not up or four Fletcher?
> Dan


In my opinion, *" cock feather up"* or *"4 fletch"* still leaves a lower hen feather that is more susceptible to contact with the shelf. (not the strike plate, but the shelf)

Why not put cock feather in, which places the lower hen at the outer edge of the shelf to begin with. That way when the arrow does flex, the lower hen feather is more likely to avoid any contact whatsoever?

KPC


----------



## GEREP (May 6, 2003)

Easykeeper said:


> I don't notice any difference shooting cock feather in or out, or any other orientation for that matter. I think your reasoning is sound.
> 
> I shoot cock feather out simply because cock feather in looks weird to me. Besides, I don't really notice a difference.


With my rig, shooting cock feather in allows me to even shoot vanes off the shelf. Something that can come in very handy when hunting in wet weather. 

I always have one arrow fletched with vanes in my quiver when I'm hunting. Just something I do.

KPC


----------



## Easykeeper (Jan 2, 2003)

GEREP said:


> With my rig, shooting cock feather in allows me to even shoot vanes off the shelf. Something that can come in very handy when hunting in wet weather.
> 
> I always have one arrow fletched with vanes in my quiver when I'm hunting. Just something I do.
> 
> KPC


Vanes...now that's not _traditional_...:thumb:


----------



## Matt_Potter (Apr 13, 2010)

If some one holds a gun to my head and makes me shoot off the shelf with feathers it's cock feather in - if your tuned right you get zero contact or wear.

Shooting vanes off a raised rest I just put lipstick on them and figure out what orientation gives me no contact.

Matt


----------



## JParanee (Oct 13, 2009)

For me it does not matter but since I have changed to three under I. Like cock feather out so I don't have feathers up my nose


----------



## jkm97 (Jul 8, 2004)

Out, since I use the fletching against my nose as part of my anchor. I don't really notice any flight difference no matter how I orient it, but my groups are tighter when I have the reference of feather to nose.


----------



## GEREP (May 6, 2003)

We've all read it, we've all heard it. 

So when the experts and the tuning guides say that one should leave a channel between the rug and the strike plate "for the feather to pass through" see how ridiculous that old wives tale is?

I bet if we tried hard, we could find some more.

:wink:

KPC


----------



## Sanford (Jan 26, 2009)

I'm pretty sure I've seen a poster or two on the web state the channel theory, but as to an expert or any codified tuning guide, never heard such nonsense from those sources. 

The closest I've seen in experts propagating wives tales and being repeated by a few others is with a well known celebrity archer, who is undoubtedly an expert shot, but states emphatically and in print that raising one's brace height stiffens dynamic spine of the arrow. Even a beginner at tuning finds that backwards real quick.


----------



## deadeye (Aug 22, 2002)

I've always put it on top.. These days I use 4x4 fletch


----------



## ranchoarcher (Sep 26, 2013)

On a recurve shooting off the shelf, which I normally do, it's index feather in. Seems no matter what, especially with 4" or longer feathers there will be some riser strike with it facing out.


----------



## Azzurri (Mar 10, 2014)

Two things, that's off an ILF rig with a mechanical rest and plunger, and I'd still say that even though it initially bends out it oscillates back in by about 5-6 seconds of the video. I'd be interested how it would come off a shelf with a less laterally extended hair rest and leather strip (which would be around the arrow longer). I also think if the arrow oscillates back before exiting the riser, it doesn't matter if it's Newton straightline physics or wave oscillations, still a clearance concern.

Feather out, because (a) convention inculcated and (b) even when I started making my own decisions, that configuration with 3 feathers looks like the fewest contact issues. Turn it in and you're daring the plunger or leather strip to tear up the feather or re-direct the arrow even incrementally, IMO.


----------



## Bill 2311 (Jun 24, 2005)

If the arrow does not contact the riser, why does the hen feather show wear?


----------



## GEREP (May 6, 2003)

Bill 2311 said:


> If the arrow does not contact the riser, why does the hen feather show wear?


Could be a number of things. If you're shooting cock feather out, your arrow could be a little stiff and hitting the shelf. Your nock point could be too low. Could be you're using high profile fletching, could be a poor release. Remember, it takes a properly tuned arrow to not make contact. You may find, if you're shooting cock feather out, spinning them around will solve your hen feather wear.

KPC


----------



## BarneySlayer (Feb 28, 2009)

GEREP said:


> In my opinion, *" cock feather up"* or *"4 fletch"* still leaves a lower hen feather that is more susceptible to contact with the shelf. (not the strike plate, but the shelf)
> 
> Why not put cock feather in, which places the lower hen at the outer edge of the shelf to begin with. That way when the arrow does flex, the lower hen feather is more likely to avoid any contact whatsoever?
> 
> KPC


Judgment call, I guess. IF you completely miss the shelf, great. If not, you hit it just the same as you would have cock feather out...


----------



## ranchoarcher (Sep 26, 2013)

Bill 2311 said:


> If the arrow does not contact the riser, why does the hen feather show wear?


 This depends on the bow. If it's an elevated rest index feather out it probably wouldn't show any wear since the hens are both above the shelf when it passes by even if they aren't far enough left to miss it (RH bow). Off the shelf there is the potential for the lower right hen to hit the outer edge of the shelf since it's passing by with the feathers low enough. Happened quite a bit with my Buffalo using 500 spine cut to 29 and 4" feathers.


----------



## Mo0se (Sep 24, 2002)

JParanee said:


> For me it does not matter but since I have changed to three under I. Like cock feather out so I don't have feathers up my nose


I do the opposite on purpose..I shoot cock feather up and use the hen feather as a 2nd anchor and as a quiet clicker.


----------



## GEREP (May 6, 2003)

BarneySlayer said:


> Judgment call, I guess. IF you completely miss the shelf, great. If not, you hit it just the same as you would have cock feather out...


Not necessarily true Barney. Let's assume the shelf in this illustration is 3/4" wide.









With cock feather out, you have to get about an inch of flex in order for the lower hen to pass outstide the shelf.

If you have cock feather in, 1/4" of flex has the lower hen clearing the of the edge of the shelf.

KPC


----------



## BarneySlayer (Feb 28, 2009)

i think i am missing your point.


----------



## GEREP (May 6, 2003)

BarneySlayer said:


> i think i am missing your point.




OK Barney, if you look at the following illustration (I know, it's crude):










Illustration 1 shows cock feather (red) in (toward the riser). The lower hen feather (green) is already on the outer edge of the shelf for a right hand shooter. The arrow only needs to flex about 1/4" outward to clear both the lower hen feather (green) from the shelf and the cock feather (red) from the riser.

On the other hand, in Illustration 2, with cock feather (red) out, the arrow needs to flex a full 3/4" to 1" to the left in order for the lower hen feather (blue) to get outside the shelf.

So, by putting the cock feather in, the arrow doesn't need to flex nearly as much in order for all the feathers to avoid contact with the shelf or riser.

Make sense?

KPC


----------



## Tracker12 (Sep 22, 2003)

I have never noticed a difference with trad gear.


----------



## DJTJR (Apr 15, 2009)

I get better flight and fewer messed up feathers over time shooting cock feather in off of the shelf. Off a rest I shoot cock feather out


----------



## Hank D Thoreau (Dec 9, 2008)

I have gone back and forth on this with my Falco and wood arrows. I have not seen anything that has yet to convince me that I shoot better one way rather than the other. The jury is still out for me, but I am keeping an open mind, and both options available.


----------



## Bill 2311 (Jun 24, 2005)

GEREP said:


> Could be a number of things. If you're shooting cock feather out, your arrow could be a little stiff and hitting the shelf. Your nock point could be too low. Could be you're using high profile fletching, could be a poor release. Remember, it takes a properly tuned arrow to not make contact. You may find, if you're shooting cock feather out, spinning them around will solve your hen feather wear.
> 
> KPC


I posed the question "why does the hen feather show wear?" question to spark comments. KPC hit all of the causes. I hope that folks will remember that the position of the cock feather is secondary to all of these other issues. Sometimes, the smaller things attract a lot more attention on here. With so many new shooters, I hope that they understand it is more important to address the larger issues before being concerned about cock feather position.
Once you get past the issues KPC hit upon, the position of the cock feather should not make any difference other than personal preference.


----------



## GEREP (May 6, 2003)

Bill 2311 said:


> I posed the question "why does the hen feather show wear?" question to spark comments. KPC hit all of the causes. I hope that folks will remember that the position of the cock feather is secondary to all of these other issues. Sometimes, the smaller things attract a lot more attention on here. With so many new shooters, I hope that they understand it is more important to address the larger issues before being concerned about cock feather position.
> Once you get past the issues KPC hit upon, the position of the cock feather should not make any difference other than personal preference.


Good points Bill, and thanks for the reminder. In my first post, I asked...



GEREP said:


> With a properly spined arrow shaft, does the fletching ever really come close to contacting the riser?


...and I was going by the assumption that that all the other things were in order.

Turning your "cock feather in" shouldn't be a substitute for proper tuning, nor should it be a quick fix for other issues.

However, at least in my experience, it can be used for some situations that even with proper tuning, are *"tougher to get around"* (pun intended :wink

Just for one example, not all shelves are created equal. Not even close.









You don't have to be a PhD. to know that one of these risers is going to be easier to avoid fletching contact with, if you want to shoot them both off the shelf. Sometimes all it takes is going from cock feather out, to cock feather in to get the job done.

Thanks again for the reminder.

KPC


----------



## Stub (Aug 13, 2013)

Cock feathers out for me. Just what I'm used too. If I shoot any other cock feather position I get all discombobulated! I just know something feels "off"


----------



## wseward (Mar 7, 2013)

"...actually make MORE sense to have the cock feather facing IN to the riser..."

Good enough for the OLY guys...good enough for me.


----------



## wseward (Mar 7, 2013)

CORRECTION: "Good enough for the OLY guys...good enough for me. " It appears that the preceding statement made by me...is not accurate. I really have no idea how "OLY guys" shoot. I was under the "impression" that I did know. I have since seen photos and videos that indicate that I may be wrong. It appears that "sometimes" one fletch is straight up plumb and the lower fletch MAYBE at 45* to the horizontal plane (like compound bow capture rest attitude).

I had seen high speed footage that had cock fletch in and it clears the rest and riser. Due to this and other impressions, I believed that cock fletch in was Standard. It appears that I am wrong...again. Oh well...next time.


----------



## Rick Barbee (Jan 16, 2013)

I often shoot vanes from the shelf, and doing that has
lead me to really look at all the options that really do increase clearance.

I shoot *cock feather in*, and it definitely gives me better clearance at pass
than does any other orientation. 

The top outside hen feather also gives me a real nice place to rest my nose at full draw. 

Rick


----------



## bowhuntrmaniac (Jan 22, 2012)

I have my cock feather at approx. 7-8 o'clock (turned nocks after marking alighnment on shaft for future refletching) . this puts first hen feather at about 11 o'clock and 2nd hen at valley between side plate and space of the bottom vlcro rest. Don't know if it is the best answer (haven't tried anything else) but seems to work for me.


----------



## Sanford (Jan 26, 2009)

wseward said:


> CORRECTION: "Good enough for the OLY guys...good enough for me. " It appears that the preceding statement made by me...is not accurate. I really have no idea how "OLY guys" shoot. I was under the "impression" that I did know. I have since seen photos and videos that indicate that I may be wrong. It appears that "sometimes" one fletch is straight up plumb and the lower fletch MAYBE at 45* to the horizontal plane (like compound bow capture rest attitude).
> 
> I had seen high speed footage that had cock fletch in and it clears the rest and riser. Due to this and other impressions, I believed that cock fletch in was Standard. It appears that I am wrong...again. Oh well...next time.


In reality, they pretty much all shoot curled Mylar vanes of some brand. With different types of flipper rests and wire configs, they just make sure the curl is not catching (which is shouldn't by practicality). Pretty easy to tell on that type material if it's catching.


----------



## Dewey3 (May 6, 2012)

Stub said:


> Cock feathers out for me. Just what I'm used too. If I shoot any other cock feather position I get all discombobulated! I just know something feels "off"


:set1_signs009:

I was taught a half-century ago that that was the way to do it, so by gum that is the way I will continue to do it, LOL!!!


----------



## BarneySlayer (Feb 28, 2009)

GEREP said:


> OK Barney, if you look at the following illustration (I know, it's crude):
> 
> 
> View attachment 1957633
> ...


Oh, sure. In fact, I have had that exact experience, shooting arrows made by a pro shop, and noticed some arrow bounce. Cut the index off of the Classic Nocks, shot them 'backwards', and everything flew straighter...

My point, though, rotating so that the 'flat' edge is down, and that the 'cock' side is up, is that regardless of where it meets the shelf, the quills will make first contact without pressure, or in the case of a helical, or hypoid fletch, more gradually. You're not going to miss the feather entirely, like in your 'cock feather in' illustration, but you guarantee that the front of any quill can't make shelf contact, whether it has enough clearance away from the side of the riser or not.

Playing around with it, in purely anecdotal terms, the cock feather up, and cock feather in approaches, seemed to work equally well for me.

That you can get vanes to clear off the shelf, though, is certainly an endorsement


----------



## TradDaddy (Jun 27, 2013)

Off the shelf, I shoot cock feather in. 
This has given me the best arrow flight and my feathers tend to last longer

From an elevated rest, I shoot cock feather up.


----------



## Joe03 (Oct 15, 2013)

In for me... I do notice better arrow flight in my results...


----------



## Gatorkountry (Jun 20, 2013)

Here is a couple of videos that might be of interest. First video is with cock feather out. Second video is with cock feather in. Third video is cock feather in with a Falco bow.
1). https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q7fioUs-XL0&list=UUmVczwYUfq6sQQjCmKd2q5Q

2). https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w3fediz8qFI&list=UUmVczwYUfq6sQQjCmKd2q5Q

3). https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WGbIDMQ9S-Q&list=UUmVczwYUfq6sQQjCmKd2q5Q


----------



## reddogge (Jul 21, 2009)

I see the advantage of cock feather in but still shoot out. I've been shooting some arrows two or more years without lower hen feather wear on all of my shooters. Two feather rests and two thin beaver hair rests.


----------



## GEREP (May 6, 2003)

reddogge said:


> I see the advantage of cock feather in but still shoot out. I've been shooting some arrows two or more years without lower hen feather wear on all of my shooters. Two feather rests and two thin beaver hair rests.


I don't think it matters much at all if you are properly tuned reddogge, especially if you are using bow with a narrow shelf or a feather rest or a narrow felt pad like I use (which are both in essence "elevated," making the width of the shelf very narrow).















I think it becomes a lot more critical when shooting directly off a wide shelf. the shelf is wide, requiring a lot more lateral flex for proper clearance.

KPC


----------



## Robertfishes (Aug 22, 2004)

I shoot off the shelf, with the cock feather up at the 12 o'clock position..


----------



## WVXFORCE (Jul 17, 2007)

I shoot cock feather in with my widow. I have noticed some wear on my velcro shelf where my 8 oclock feather maybe making contact. Just ob the outter edge of the ahelf..other then that great flight


----------



## Captainkirk (Sep 18, 2014)

IN THEORY....(yeah, famous last words!) the reason we use feathers over vanes is that "feathers are more forgiving"....meaning, vanes roll over and bunch up (which is why we position them to 'miss' the prongs of our elevated/drop-down rests on our compounds) as compared to feathers, which fold back and streamline themselves, whether it be a cock feather at 3 o'clock folding against the striker of out bow riser, or the hen feathers at 5 and 7 o'clock folding up with cock feather at 12 o'clock, or cock feather at 9 o'clock and hen feathers folding at 2 and 5 o'clock....either way, you won't get away without contact shooting off the rest. And we have to be content with the idea that the feathers that do contact the riser will, in fact, fold over as they are supposed to. Since a fingers-released arrow yaws (right-to-left) as opposed to a release arrow which porpoises (up and down) your best bet would be to eliminate any or all side contact....and off the shelf, that ain't gonna happen, folks. Throw the theory out the window and test your bow/arrow combination with varying fletching locations; in the end, what works for you and your combination is right, and not textbook theory. Just my opinion, but to me, it's all that matters!


----------



## Roughrider (Oct 19, 2012)

When I shoot cock feather out with large feathers the lower hen will brush the index finger on my bow hand, so mine are completely clearing the riser.


----------



## rattus58 (Jul 9, 2007)

GEREP said:


> In keeping with the recent discussion about *"Archers Paradox," * let's take a look at conventional wisdom regarding fletching orientation.
> 
> For decades, it's been pounded into our brains that in order to effectively shoot an arrow off the shelf of a recurve or a longbow, the cock feather must be positioned so that it faces out (to the left for a right hand shooter, or to the right for a left hand shooter) in order to avoid contact with the riser, and the negative effects that will have on arrow flight.
> 
> ...


You covered it....


----------



## Bustoff (Sep 3, 2014)

Dewey3 said:


> :set1_signs009:
> 
> I was taught a half-century ago that that was the way to do it, so by gum that is the way I will continue to do it, LOL!!!


+1 from another geezer.


----------

