# Super-tuning single cam bows...



## Ray.Klefstad (Oct 7, 2006)

Hi all.

Here is my current process for super tuning single cam bows. I have refined this process by tuning about 20 bows now with a wide range of arrows and broadheads. This is worth doing even if you plan to shoot mechanical heads as you will ensure you get optimal power to your arrow.

One of the major differences I have found is that cam lean must be correct to get bullet holes. And I do not adjust the rest side-to-side until I get the cam lean right for bullet holes through paper. Also, I will only shoot a bare shaft through paper. Fletching prevents getting a clear picture of how the arrow is flying.

If someone with experience with other cam set-ups, I'd like to hear how they differ. I'm not a Mathews fan boy, but I do own all Mathews bows which happen to be single cam bows. I have setup and tuned several Hoyt's that my friends own, but only did one twin-cam bow. Bowtech's are rare in southern California - I've only seen one.

Tools I use include bow press, bow vice, string level, arrow level, allen wrenches, paper tuning rack, and tape measure.

Ray

*Super Tuning your Single-cam Bow*

1. ensure arrows are stiff enough and straight, broadheads spin true, and fletching adds spin to the arrow
2. ensure string is in good shape
3. get bow into spec: ATA, cam timing, limb poundage, cam lean
4. set-up rest so that arrow is even with burger button, centered on string/cams (11/16" from riser to center of arrow on Mathews)
5. for single-cam bow, set-up nock point so nock is 1/8" to 3/16" high
6. shoot a bare shaft through paper until you get perfect bullet hole. Adjust cam lean until left/right tears are gone. For nock-left tear, add twists to right yolk. For nock-right tears, add twists to left yolk. Adjust rest up or down for nock-high or low tears. Principle is to move the arrow point to be in front of the arrow nock by adjusting the rest.
7. set top sight pin to top of sight guard. adjust sight gang so top pin is on at 20 yards with field points
8. On a windless day, broadhead tune at 20 yards, make micro adjustments to rest to move broadheads to field points, adjusting sight pin gang as necessary
9. broadhead tune from 30, 40, 50, 60, ... 100, set appropriate sight pin as necessary. I like Muzzy 3 blade for tuning because 1) they have practice blades that are easy to remove from target and 2) if they fly good, so do most other fixed heads.


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## bowhuntermitch (May 17, 2005)

Agreed with everything stated.. 
i do have a goofy one thought, i super tuned my diamond nitrous, but to get broadheads and field points to fly together i have to have a tiny high tear through paper..


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## Ray.Klefstad (Oct 7, 2006)

bowhuntermitch said:


> Agreed with everything stated..
> i do have a goofy one thought, i super tuned my diamond nitrous, but to get broadheads and field points to fly together i have to have a tiny high tear through paper..


I've read that persistent high-tears on single cam bows may be due to an overly stiff spine. I've not yet had any problem with arrow spine being too stiff. However, I have run into problems with spine being too weak.

Although I'm an avid reader/researcher, I've learned much of this the hard way - shooting hours and hours, day after day at the range, in my garage, etc until my arms can't take it any more.

Another common misconception is to use side-to-side arrow rest adjustments too early before you get the cam lean correct. You can get decent arrow flight by doing that, but I got better results by starting with eveything in line, then getting cam lean right, then making micro adjustments to the rest only during broadhead tuning.

Edit: I used the term "cam lean," but it is more correctly "idler wheel lean" as the yolk attaches on either side of the idler wheel. I'm not sure how I came to call it cam lean.

Ray


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## ats (Jul 20, 2007)

First, great write up. Thanks for taking the time to share that

But that just looks like run of the mill tuning to me


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## EricO (Nov 24, 2004)

Posting to bookmark this. I may be adding an inexpensive single cam bow to my stable.


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## crackedup (Mar 17, 2009)

Nice job, but I do have one question. Are you talking about Cam lean or Idler lean. The cam on a Mathews bow should always be very close to parallel with the string. The Idler wheel on the other hand should always be close to straight up and down at full draw, and at rest have some lean.


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## Ray.Klefstad (Oct 7, 2006)

crackedup said:


> Nice job, but I do have one question. Are you talking about Cam lean or Idler lean. The cam on a Mathews bow should always be very close to parallel with the string. The Idler wheel on the other hand should always be close to straight up and down at full draw, and at rest have some lean.


Yes, it is idler wheel lean. I've always heard it called cam lean, but I should have called it idler wheel lean. The yolk attaches on either side of the idler wheel, so that is what we are adjusting.

I have never seen a tuning guide that start with idler wheel lean adjustment to get bullet holes. They usually start with adjusting your arrow rest.

Also, if you get it to shoot bullet holes through paper with a bare shaft, you can put on a mechanical or a lower profile fixed head and it will probably group field points and broadheads pretty well - at least under 50 yards.

Ray


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## im-ocd (Mar 22, 2007)

Good write up / info.


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## JPizzle (Sep 10, 2007)

This might be common knowledge but I didnt know any of it so I appreciate the write up. Thanks. I will be printing this and adding to my Archery 3 ring binder.


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## krieger (Jan 24, 2007)

Great post Ray. I see way too many people start tweaking their rest before making sure the bow is spec'd out and the string is tracking true.String track is the cause of 90% of the tuning problems, imo.


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## madsammer (Nov 21, 2008)

bump


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## Ray.Klefstad (Oct 7, 2006)

krieger said:


> Great post Ray. I see way too many people start tweaking their rest before making sure the bow is spec'd out and the string is tracking true.String track is the cause of 90% of the tuning problems, imo.


Hi Krieger.

Yes, and things get pretty strange when you try to patch an idler wheel lean problem by shifting the rest.

I often hear of guys who say they just can't get a bullet hole and I'm pretty sure it is due to either 1) idler wheel lean or 2) spine problem. You rarely hear about how to adjust your idler wheel properly.

Ray


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## Ray.Klefstad (Oct 7, 2006)

> I am just starting to play around with tuning my mathews bow and my wife's mathews bow. I was just wondering about one measurement you gave in #4 (11/16" from riser to center of arrow on Mathews). In the mathews manual it says to start at 13/16" from the riser to center of the arrow.


Actually, I always align the string, cam, wheel and arrow so they are all in allignment. I do it by eyballing down those various points. It ends up being 11/16" on both of my current type of bows (Mathews LX and Mathews Conquest). If it came out at 13/16", then that is where I would start. Remember, this is just the starting point, but you will use it to get your idler wheel lean correct and your rest height correct. I don't adjust the rest side to side until after I get bullet holes with bare shaft, then start doing broadhead tuning. And if you get bullet holes with bare shaft, when you go to broadhead tuning, you will not have to make much rest adjustment at all - usually less than a 32nd of an inch in any one direction. In your case, I would start with what the manufacturer recommends for you to start at 13/16" unless you want to eyeball it like I do.



> Also, I have read several places about setting the nock up to 1/2" above the 90 degree point to start out. Why do you do this and not set it perpendicular initially?


Single cam bows have vertical string travel due to the cam, but this only happens from below where the cam is. Dual cam bows both travel so the nock does not move up and down during the release, so I would expect that you start the nock point level for dual cam bows. It does not hurt to start where they recommend because you are going to change it after shooting your bow and only to improve the flight of your arrow and broadheads.

Have fun! It is fun and rewarding to do your own equipment and to be self-sufficient. And if you have any questions, I'm always happy to help.

Ray


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## HammyAbeer (Jul 15, 2008)

Nice write-up

However, If i set my rest at 11/16ths on my SBXt, and idler wheel tuned, i bet the string would fall off before I got a bullethole.


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## chasemukluk (Jun 10, 2008)

Thanks


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## Ray.Klefstad (Oct 7, 2006)

HammyAbeer said:


> Nice write-up
> 
> However, If i set my rest at 11/16ths on my SBXt, and idler wheel tuned, i bet the string would fall off before I got a bullethole.


SBXT must be one of the 13/16" models. Like I said, I prefer to eyeball it so the string, cam, idler wheel, and nocked arrow are all in line. That should work in any case. Any specific measurement is likely to be right for some models of bows.

Ray


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## Ray.Klefstad (Oct 7, 2006)

My new LX string and cable arrived today from H&M. I'm gonna go put them on right now!

Ray


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## manybows (Apr 18, 2004)

Interesting read. I shoot custom strings on most of my Mathews bows and have my string guy make a floating yoke. I really haven't had any issues with idler lean, though I do typically look for it.

I have had great results just "bench tuning", starting with the d loop at dead level (and thru the center of the berger button hole) and centershot set with a guage......9 times out of ten I can just go out and walk back tune right off the bat, generally with broadheads. I have never worried about my broadheads and FP's hitting the same place. But by walk back tuning the fixed blade broadhead first, the FP's and expandables generally follow and shoot in the same hole all the way out.

I've had great luck going with a fairly stiff arrow. In fact, I have yet to have a problem with "too stiff" since I started shooting carbon about 10 years ago. I have however gotten burned "too weak", especially with Gold Tip arrows. Great arrows, but their spine charts were always on the weak side IMO. 

Gotta love the single cams, though....Even a rookie can get them shooting good, and if you spend the time Ray does, you can have a true tack driver.

Thanks for a good thread.


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## Lonestar63 (Mar 19, 2007)

Good post Ray! :thumbs_up

Lots of Mathew shooters look at other things besides the idler when they can't get consistent, good arrow flight, and it can cause problems if it's not set right.

You mentioned cam timing, but you forgot to mention Mathews cams HAVE timing holes, and yes, a single cam bow CAN be out of tune. 

If you fiddle with it long enough, you will find a sweet spot in your cam rotation, and if you have a quality aftermarket string, it most likely will not move.

My cams work best on my Drenalin slightly under-rotated.


Very helpful post Ray!


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## Ray.Klefstad (Oct 7, 2006)

Lonestar63 said:


> ...a single cam bow CAN be out of tune...if you fiddle with it long enough, you will find a sweet spot in your cam rotation...My cams work best on my Drenalin slightly under-rotated.


Wow! I have not tried setting the cam forward or backward from recommended timing. I always set the cam timing as part of the "get the bow in spec" part and assumed it would behave best where it was designed to.

That is interesting your Drenalin works best slightly under rotated.

Ray


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## Ray.Klefstad (Oct 7, 2006)

Last night, I put my new H&M string on my LX. I set it to spec, then set the rest where I explained above, then I never moved it. I only adjusted idler wheel lean (via twisting the yolks) and nocking point (by removing and reattaching the D-loop. Now it shoots perfect bullet holes. Tomorrow, I'll head to the range and do broadhead tuning.

I always set the initial idler-wheel-lean so when I place an arrow on the shelf side of the idler wheel, the arrow is perfectly parallel to the string. That is usually pretty close to right. I had to add a few twists to the left (the side without the shelf).

Ray


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## hoggin03 (Oct 24, 2005)

How do you determine idler lean? Just by looking at the idler while the bow is undrawn, while you draw it, on a draw board, or while someone else draws it?


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## Ray.Klefstad (Oct 7, 2006)

manybows said:


> Interesting read. I shoot custom strings on most of my Mathews bows and have my string guy make a floating yoke. I really haven't had any issues with idler lean, though I do typically look for it.


I've seen these floating yolk on other bows and wondered if they would be better or worse. 1) you don't have to adjust lean, but 2) you can't adjust it if you need to. I would expect that, as long as your limbs are consistent in strength and not twisted, the floating yolk would be better.



manybows said:


> I have had great results just "bench tuning", starting with the d loop at dead level (and thru the center of the berger button hole) and centershot set with a guage......9 times out of ten I can just go out and walk back tune right off the bat, generally with broadheads.


My experience is consistent with yours except that I invest the time to get bullet holes through paper with a bare shaft to ensure I'm super close before I start shooting broadheads. If I get it shooting bullet holes with bare shafts at my shop, it is usually good enough to shoot broadheads and fielld points together for most hunting situations. However, I like all my bows to be tack drivers (like you said), so I do the minior tuning of the arrow rest to get Muzzy's and field points together out to 100 yards.

I started on this quest when my buddy bought a brand new Mathews Switchback (four years ago) which was set-up by a pro hunter who has his own shop. It would not shoot broadheads with field points no matter how we adjusted the arrow rest. I suspected the broadhead, the arrows, (and tried all variety of alternatives), but nothing fixed that problem. He took it back to the pro shop-owner twice, but he could not get it done correctly. Finally, I read about setting idler wheel lean and tried it. Adding twists to the right yolk reduced the left tear, so I kept doing it until I got bullet holes. Then the problem was fixed and I was able to make his bow a tack driver too.



manybows said:


> I've had great luck going with a fairly stiff arrow. In fact, I have yet to have a problem with "too stiff" since I started shooting carbon about 10 years ago. I have however gotten burned "too weak", especially with Gold Tip arrows. Great arrows, but their spine charts were always on the weak side IMO.


Amen! My experience is exactly the same! I just bought a dozen Victory 350s that were correct for my bow by the spine chart, but there is no chance they will fly right out of my bow. I really need the 300s. I've always been able to shoot the stiffest arrows made with no problem.



manybows said:


> Gotta love the single cams, though....Even a rookie can get them shooting good, and if you spend the time Ray does, you can have a true tack driver.


Great point! They really are simple and easy. While I was trying to figure them out, I kept telling myself, "this isn't rocket science, it is just a bow and arrow."

So, Manybows, have you tuned dual cam or cam and a half bows? How are they different than single cam?

Ray


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## HammyAbeer (Jul 15, 2008)

Ray.Klefstad said:


> Wow! I have not tried setting the cam forward or backward from recommended timing. I always set the cam timing as part of the "get the bow in spec" part and assumed it would behave best where it was designed to.
> 
> That is interesting your Drenalin works best slightly under rotated.
> 
> Ray


Same with my switchback.. I just tried the parallel rule of thumb (again) and it put it all out of whack


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## Ray.Klefstad (Oct 7, 2006)

hoggin03 said:


> How do you determine idler lean? Just by looking at the idler while the bow is undrawn, while you draw it, on a draw board, or while someone else draws it?


The main point of this thread is *it can only be set correctly by achieving bullet holes through paper with a bare shaft*.

Cam timing and ATA can be set properly by static setup and measurements.

You can eyeball the setup for initial rest windage (arrow, string, cam, and idler wheel all in alignment) and elevation (arrow even with the burger button).

You can set the initial idler wheel lean setting by placing a straight edge (like an arrow) against the shelf side of your idler wheel, then seeing how well it parallels the string. I look at the point near the nocking point. I start with the arrow pretty much parallel to the string, then do dynamic adjustments from there.

But then comes the shooting a bare shaft through paper and twisting yolk to remove nock-right or nock-left tears. You can raise or lower the nocking point to remove nock-high or nock-low tears.

Ray


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## crackedup (Mar 17, 2009)

Ray.Klefstad said:


> The main point of this thread is *it can only be set correctly by achieving bullet holes through paper with a bare shaft*.
> 
> Cam timing and ATA can be set properly by static setup and measurements.
> 
> ...


This is ok but. Depends a little on the bow. Mathews suggest it to be straight at full draw. That is the way my Reezen works the best. When it's at rest, with a straight edge on the shelf side of the idler, it will be about 1/8" from the nock point. I think this is a little more important especially with the Reezen. With it, you definitely don't want it leaning away from the shelf side. If you would induce torque it could cause the string to roll off. Not good.


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## Gary73 (Jan 11, 2008)

On my Marquis I get the bow in spec, I measure axle to axle on both sides of the bow and then look at the idler wheel and take the strings/cables away form the roller guard. When there is no pressure from the rollers the idler wheel will be dead straight and when on the rollers it will become straight at full draw. Seems to work for me.

Totally agree with No.7

Saves you from running out of adjusment within the pin guard.


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## IChim2 (Aug 20, 2006)

Good post but i'm not sure about the berger button hole.I was told to center the bottom of the arrow shaft with the middle of the holes and thats how i've alwasys done it and seems to work great for me.I've also seen shops that lined up the bottom of the shaft with the bottom of the holes and i guess that would work to,but i perfere the other way.All rests are different.....and not all rests will allow for vane clearence.A few rests on the market will allow the adjustment for raising the launcher.....not launcher arm.Some rests that only allow you to adjust the launcher "arm" up and down doesn't mean you'll be able to have total vane clearence.....because your only moving the arm.....not the launhcer.2 shops that i know of say to set nock 1/8 high....another says nock level....for single cam.....i use the 1/8.Not sure if 1/8 or level makes that much difference.....but 1/8 seems to work good for me.


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## Stanley (Jan 18, 2005)

Nice write up.


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## ats (Jul 20, 2007)

IChim2 said:


> Good post but i'm not sure about the berger button hole.I was told to center the bottom of the arrow shaft with the middle of the holes and thats how i've alwasys done it and seems to work great for me.I've also seen shops that lined up the bottom of the shaft with the bottom of the holes and i guess that would work to,but i perfere the other way.All rests are different.....and not all rests will allow for vane clearence.A few rests on the market will allow the adjustment for raising the launcher.....not launcher arm.Some rests that only allow you to adjust the launcher "arm" up and down doesn't mean you'll be able to have total vane clearence.....because your only moving the arm.....not the launhcer.2 shops that i know of say to set nock 1/8 high....another says nock level....for single cam.....i use the 1/8.Not sure if 1/8 or level makes that much difference.....but 1/8 seems to work good for me.




you're reading too much into it. Bows are different and some will tune better one way while others another way. Unless you know specifically that the bow in your hand will tune better with the bottom of the shaft lined up with the center of the berger hole, then just centering it is a good starting point. And to be quite honest, in my experience unless the bow is just finicky and has some funky nock travel, you will be able to tune it either way.

Same thing with the nock height level. 1/8 or level as a starting point is just that, a starting point and some bows will tune differently. Not all single cams are created equal


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## IChim2 (Aug 20, 2006)

Wasn't reading to much into it......i said good post.....and your right...it's just a starting point and each will tune different in the end.What i said wasn't ment to be cast in stone.....just a post.But thanks for being concerened and enliteing me on what i read.:darkbeer:


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## lukeandwillsdad (Nov 29, 2008)

sounds like this would work well and be easily done with the cable adjusters that spot-hogg made. but i don't see them on their website anymore.


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## Ray.Klefstad (Oct 7, 2006)

crackedup said:


> When it's at rest, with a straight edge on the shelf side of the idler, it will be about 1/8" from the nock point. I think this is a little more important especially with the Reezen.


If you start out by adjusting it the way I recommended, the straight edge (most likely an arrow) will be about 1/8" away from the nock point - just like you described. However, the entire straight edge will be pretty close to parallel with the string.

This is just for setting the initial idler wheel lean and I would not assume it is correct just because that is what you have been told. You will adjust it after you start they dynamic tuning of shooting through paper. The flight of the bare shaft through paper will tell you when it is correct.

All the dynamic part of the tuning requires iteration with shooting, viewing the performance, then making adjustments. There is no mindless setting of things except to get initial ball park settings with which to start dynamic tuning.

Ray


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## Ray.Klefstad (Oct 7, 2006)

lukeandwillsdad said:


> sounds like this would work well and be easily done with the cable adjusters that spot-hogg made. but i don't see them on their website anymore.


The entire thing is not too bad if you have a good bow press. I press my bow quite a few times when setting it up.

I consider a bow press essential equipment if you have a compound bow. That is why I was happy there are now affordable ones that are pretty good. I use an Omni Press that cost about $150 shipped and it does the job well.

I don't consider the portable bowpresses suitable for serious bow work. Sure they work, but they just are not quick enough to allow you to do all the minor adjustments you should do to get it right. I have a BowMaster, but only keep it in my gear bag in case I should ever have an emergency while hunting such as needing to reinstall my peep.

Ray


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## Lonestar63 (Mar 19, 2007)

Ray.Klefstad said:


> I have a BowMaster, but only keep it in my gear bag in case I should ever have an emergency while hunting such as needing to reinstall my peep.
> 
> Ray


Bowmaster is great for what it is.

I don't go hunting out of State, or to a 3d shoot without it.

Saved my butt on a hunt 2 years ago in Missouri. Cold, wet, snowy conditions and putting a cold bow in a warm house overnight caused my string to stretch, and it rotated my peep 180 degrees.

I'm not sure if there was a bow shop within a hundred miles.

With my bowmaster, had her fixed in less than 5 minutes......

Your right about a good press though Ray. I've got the EZ Press here in my home shop, and love it.


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## Ray.Klefstad (Oct 7, 2006)

Just to show that these initial numbers don't stay the same after you start dynamic tuning, I measured how they came out after getting my LX to shoot bullet holes last night.

Distance from riser shelf to center of arrow: 12/16" (not 11/16" or 13/16" which are two common recommended starting points, my Conquest came out right at 11/16"). This is where the string lined up with the cam, idler wheel, and arrow on my LX.

Distance nock is above level: 1/8" (and that was critical to get the bullet holes)

Distance of straight edge from string nocking point when placed on riser side of idler wheel: 3/16"

Notice how much the idler was adjusted to get it right. I started with 1/8" which had the straight edge nearly parallel with my string, then added quite a few twists to get the 3/16" distance.

I bet not all LX bows are the same. They may all be similar, but there are going to be slight differences in materials and configurations that may or may not affect the setup that gives optimal performance.

Yes, I don't think it is critical to have your arrow even with the berger button, but it is pretty close to the center of the string and as good a starting place as any. It may affect where your sight ends up which may be too high or too low depending on your anchor point.

Ray


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## STUDENT-ARCHER (Jun 26, 2009)

*Super Tune*



Ray.Klefstad said:


> Wow! I have not tried setting the cam forward or backward from recommended timing. I always set the cam timing as part of the "get the bow in spec" part and assumed it would behave best where it was designed to.
> 
> That is interesting your Drenalin works best slightly under rotated.
> 
> Ray


that is part of what all the "Super Tuners" are doing, playing with cam rotation to get max speed and quietness and forgiveness and............also try playing with the position and number of speed nocks on the string. 
Important to note when looking for Idler Lean, must be done at full draw.
I like to see only the top or the Berger hole when setting rest height for small to medium sized arrows, and it should be covered with large diamater arrows. Great to have a share info thread once and a while! Good post Ray


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## Ray.Klefstad (Oct 7, 2006)

Lonestar63 said:


> Bowmaster is great for what it is.
> 
> I don't go hunting out of State, or to a 3d shoot without it.


I agree completely! I will never sell my Bowmaster and I use it for exactly the same thing you do. I always have it in my gear bag - even on local trips.

EZ Press is sweet! Just a little costly for the average DIYer. I was going to make my own until I saw the Omni Press for $145 shipped to my door. I estimated it would cost me $80 just in parts to make my own and Albert did a great job making it. He sells them here on AT, but I got mine from eBay.

Ray


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## Ray.Klefstad (Oct 7, 2006)

STUDENT-ARCHER said:


> also try playing with the position and number of speed nocks on the string.


I've not yet started to play with speed nocks. I've seen them on stock strings, but never on custom strings. Can you elaborate on how they work and how one would tune them? I'm sure they do something useful otherwise they would not come on so many stock bows.



STUDENT-ARCHER said:


> Important to note when looking for Idler Lean, must be done at full draw.


Right, but I believe you can't just eyeball idler lean and get it perfect (although you can get it pretty close). That is why I'm saying it should be adjusted to get bullet holes and that is a good measure that it is correct.

Ray


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## ats (Jul 20, 2007)

Ray.Klefstad said:


> Wow! I have not tried setting the cam forward or backward from recommended timing.
> 
> Ray


And THIS is where "super tuning" starts


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## Ray.Klefstad (Oct 7, 2006)

ats said:


> And THIS is where "super tuning" starts


I've focused all my super tuning on long range accuracy and consistency of both broadheads and fieldpoints.

I assumed the cam designer designed their cams to give optimum values for what they value such as speed, smoothness, low hand shock, etc.

The one post above is the first I've heard of going out of cam timing giving better results than the cam being in tune according to manufacturer's recommendation.

Can you share what you are seeing with experiments with various cam rotations?

Ray


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## ats (Jul 20, 2007)

Ray.Klefstad said:


> I've focused all my super tuning on long range accuracy and consistency of both broadheads and fieldpoints.
> 
> I assumed the cam designer designed their cams to give optimum values for what they value such as speed, smoothness, low hand shock, etc.
> 
> ...




Oh man it really starts to get fun when you can get decent access to a chrono or buy one for your home shop and start playing with cam timing, or if your bow has adjustable letoff some pick up speed at a higher or lower letoff depending on the bow.

Manufacturer cam timing marks can be pretty broad in the timing, synch department. Its just the nature of it. A broad "optimal range" may not be the most absolute possible performance that you can get out of that cam/cams. Some may pick up speed being slightly ******ed from whats considered optimal, some may have a sweet spot with the cams more advanced.

Then comes trying to pick up more speed with speed buttons on the string, location, how many. It can take a while to figure out how to get the more performance out of a bow while maintaining perfect arrow flight.

Anyway, I didn't mean to hijack your thread to try to rain on one of the best threads that I've noticed posted on AT in some time. And I'm sure a lot more people than just myself and those that have posted thanks will enjoy it, get something out of it, and appreciate it for some time to come. Again man, GREAT thread.


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## wayles (Jun 1, 2009)

*Tuning*

I have been reading this thread with great interest. I have a drenalin LD that I am struggling to tune. Dren LD @ 59 # , 28.5 DL, Trophy taker shaky hunter{ Fletch does not contact arrowrest, did a lipstick test to make sure} gold tip 75/95.The 55/75 was worse. Helical 4 " fletch. Persistant stright left tear.The only way I can get it to bullet hole is to move the rest way too close to the riser where I just barely have clearence and reach way too deep into the grip. Grip is a hicks low wrist. Factory grip did not work. I have a torqueless wooden grip coming. The bow does have a string stop on it. Looking at the Idler wheel it appears to be ever so slightly tilted to the right. from what i was reading in the previous stuff, a left tear calls for twisting up the right yoke which will further increase the cam lean. I suppose untwisting the left yoke would strighten the idler and give the same effect as twisting the right side. Any suggestions on the DLD would be appreciated.
wayles


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## ddd-shooter (Jan 18, 2009)

How do you adjust cam timing? 
What are your steps?


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## manybows (Apr 18, 2004)

Ray.Klefstad said:


> So, Manybows, have you tuned dual cam or cam and a half bows? How are they different than single cam?
> 
> Ray


Haven't really shot too many 2-cam bows the last ten years. I do shoot Hoyt Cam and a half for target and I have a very good hoyt guru to help me. He is able to visually set the timing by drawing on a draw board to get one cam to come in just before the other, that will drastically effect how the bow "holds". They seem to be as basic as single cams once you work with them a bit. 

I just purchased a DXT and will be playing with it this weekend. It shoots FP and Broadheads right together, just by using the basic settings I always do. (have not shot long distance with it yet, too busy in the stand) I plan on paying particular attention to the idler lean on this one. I would think that would get more and more critical the shorter A-A that you go, as you are cheating the cables to the right (right handed bow) over a shorter distance. Or maybe I haven't had enough coffee yet. This bow still has a perfect factory string and cable set, so I will be able to adjust it (the yoke) if need be.

OK, now I have to confess,:embara: I have shot lots of Mathews bows with the timing marks off, sometimes fairly drastically. This is to get draw length perfect. I do not shoot well unless my DL is spot on, like within 1/4" and I buy and sell a fair amount of bows. Lots of times I have had to simply twist the string to get it where I want it, if I am waiting for/looking for the correct cam. The beauty of the dual feed cam is that you can get away with it to a degree. That said after reading some of the posts, I will be interested to shoot thru the chrono with it lined up and then off a bit. My DXT is about 10 degrees off right now. From what I have heard/read, the holy trinity for single cams is getting Axle/Axle, Brace and cam timing all perfect (spec). The good thing for most archers is that they shoot very well if one of these is off a bit.

+100 on having a bow press at your disposal. And I would not go far from home without my Bowmaster either.

Ray, you must have sprayed some hater repellant on this thread. Almost 2 full pages of all positive, constructive posts. What a breath of fresh air! Y'all have a good weekend.


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## cath8r (Jan 17, 2003)

I've found that my best shooting Mathews rigs always ended up being under rotated. 
Starting with 1/8" above square for nock height is always good, but sometimes it goes a little higher to get the bow to hold (aim) better. 
This is a great thread. 
Adjusting cam lean helps settle out the little tail whip issues. Its all for naught if you don't have a good, consistent grip though. 
I wrote down the major points of your tuning guide, even though I do them normally. Its good to see it all on a list so when you can get them all systematically when you change out a string (like I did last night) and not forget anything. Great thread.


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## ddd-shooter (Jan 18, 2009)

Can someone explain cam-timing on single cams to me?


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## 22Mag (Aug 31, 2009)

Im gonna try this.


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## Reed (Jun 18, 2002)

ok, so if you have a left tear, assuming that your grip and spine are ok, which side of the cable would you/should you twist. I have a naging right tear( that is a bit larger than I want) that I cant get rid of.


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## MNmike (Dec 27, 2003)

*really not "timing" on a solo cam*



ddd-shooter said:


> Can someone explain cam-timing on single cams to me?


It is cam position or orientation undrawn.

(If the cam is advanced or ******ed from a factory recommened position.)


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## bagel77 (Feb 1, 2008)

erico said:


> posting to bookmark this. I may be adding an inexpensive single cam bow to my stable.


+ 1


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## Ray.Klefstad (Oct 7, 2006)

Reed said:


> ok, so if you have a left tear, assuming that your grip and spine are ok, which side of the cable would you/should you twist. I have a naging right tear( that is a bit larger than I want) that I cant get rid of.


Hi Reed.

You add twists to the right side of your yolk (making it shorter) to reduce a nock-left tear. The principle is you add twists to the opposite side yolk to reduce the nock tear in a given direction.

I usually add one or two full twists at a time until I get close to a bullet hole, then switch to half turn adjustments until I get it perfect. Of course, you must shoot through paper after each adjustment to see how it is changing.

Remember to use a bare shaft (without any fletching) when you shoot through paper. It is worth it for the clear bullet hole you get.

Ray


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## quackshack (Nov 7, 2009)

Yep, this is what I always do. Thanks for spreading the info to the "non-knowing".


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## Ray.Klefstad (Oct 7, 2006)

manybows said:


> Ray, you must have sprayed some hater repellant on this thread. Almost 2 full pages of all positive, constructive posts. What a breath of fresh air! Y'all have a good weekend.


I try to stay away from arguments - especially on AT. Life is too short. I'd rather keep learning from others and sharing what I am learning with others.

I did start a big one about a year ago about mechanical broadheads and it wasn't worth it. It was 7 pages long within a few hours and got locked. It is probably easier to convince someone to change religion than to switch style of broadheads. :wink:

Ray


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## coloradodave (Oct 1, 2005)

ddd-shooter said:


> Can someone explain cam-timing on single cams to me?



Hope you guys don't mind if I chime in? Here is a link that might help you with cam timing. 

The bow was designed to perform at peak efficiency with the cam oriented in a specific place. 

If for some reason (like your string stretching) the cam over-rotates, or conversly under-rotates, the bow may no longer shoot at peak efficiency.

The following link shows where some bows are designed to have their cam oriented:

http://forums.mathewsinc.com/viewtopic.php?t=40837

Quite a few Mathews bows have two small holes in the cam. The red line shown in the link runs through the center of the holes and should run parallel to the string. An easy way to check this is to set your bow in a vice or something similar, put a level on the string.

Next put two drill bits that just fit, into the holes in the cam.

Now set your level on the drill bits. If the cam is set right, the bubble on the level will be the same as it was when you set it on the string.


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## Reed (Jun 18, 2002)

Ray.Klefstad said:


> Hi Reed.
> 
> You add twists to the right side of your yolk (making it shorter) to reduce a nock-left tear. The principle is you add twists to the opposite side yolk to reduce the nock tear in a given direction.
> 
> ...


thanks I will try that out tomorrow 

Reed


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## kzz1king (Jan 21, 2007)

Great info, posting so I can find it.


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## rodneyroberts32 (Nov 17, 2008)

*ttt*

bump


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## Ray.Klefstad (Oct 7, 2006)

Reed said:


> thanks I will try that out tomorrow
> 
> Reed


Hi Reed.

How did it go?

Ray


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## popestev (May 4, 2007)

Hay ray this has been a good read, but I was wondering if you have looked into the floating yoke any more, that is what I have on my Hyperlight. I have been shooting about 65-68 lbs and a 29" arrow with a 340 I think they are CXE 350's Well any way if I walk back tune only then a 85 grn BH shoots great, a 100 grn BH shoots about 1/2 inch or so right, any thoughts or suggestions?

Thanks for volunteering all your hard earned knowledge 
Steve


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## ungulate (Jan 7, 2009)

*new to me and interesting*

Great post Ray. I have not heard this approach to paper tuning before (starting with the idler wheel) - but I will definitely give it a go if I ever have problems with arrow flight in the future. I have always paper tuned (bare shaft moving the rest) and then been within a knats ass of broadhead bliss (out to 60 yards - I'm not much good beyond that!). I have been lucky to have a great shop to do initial setup for me - if not I'd wish I lived near you! Thanks again for the info.


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## Reed (Jun 18, 2002)

Ray.Klefstad said:


> Hi Reed.
> 
> How did it go?
> 
> Ray



Hi Ray, it went well. Swaped the old nocks for some new one, that helps a bit, and put two twists in the right side yoke, and sended up with the slightly left tear and slightly high tear that seems to work the best for me.( getting a bullet hole was done, but I seem to get my best groups with the above tear)

thanks for the idea to check

Reed


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## darin1973 (Sep 29, 2009)

MNmike said:


> It is cam position or orientation undrawn.
> 
> (If the cam is advanced or ******ed from a factory recommened position.)


On all Mathews and most other one cam bows will have 2 holes in the cam you need to tale a 3' piece of string and hold the string over both holes and that string should run parrelle to the bow string, thats when your cam is in time. I also would like to add a few things. 
one cam bows the strings do not run inline with the riser, the string is closer to the riser on the cam end and it's in the middle of the limb on wheele end. For this you need to leval everything to the string and not the riser.
Also paper tuning tells you nothing about spine testing arrows t tells you more about how you grip the bow than anything. One person can shoot a ullet hole than you can hand the bow to some one else and they can't. This does nothing but get people confused. If you want to spine test your setup than you need to bare shaft. Shoot 3 arrows at 20 yards. This is the fastest and best way to check your stup. Never,Never move your rest out of center to get a bullet hole. Once you more your power stroke off center you will never shoot straigh.


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## Ray.Klefstad (Oct 7, 2006)

Hi Steve.



popestev said:


> I was wondering if you have looked into the floating yoke any more, that is what I have on my Hyperlight.


Yes, I just bought one and installed on my Conquest Pro target bow. I'll have to give it some time to know how I like it.




popestev said:


> I have been shooting about 65-68 lbs and a 29" arrow with a 340 I think they are CXE 350's Well any way if I walk back tune only then a 85 grn BH shoots great, a 100 grn BH shoots about 1/2 inch or so right, any thoughts or suggestions?


In my experience, if you change anything significant with your arrow (length, spine, brand, broadhead weight) you should check your tuning again. It may need to be changed to match the change in your arrow.

However, if you get it tuned for a given arrow and fixed heads, then it is likely to shoot most quality fixed heads well too.

As others on AT have found, I've experienced that getting the stiffest spine is usually the most versatile way to go with compound bows if you are shooting a mechanical release (and not shooting fingers). Plus you avoid problems with spine being too weak (which does cause arrow flight problems).

Ray


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## popestev (May 4, 2007)

Ray.Klefstad said:


> Hi Steve.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Hay thinks 
I am shooting a 340 spine arrow so from all the charts and every thing that should be plenty stiff since 400 is border line.


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## outback2hunt (Feb 2, 2005)

In regards to cam orientation, if the draw weight is reduced by backing out the limb bolts will the cam timing stay the same? If it changes should the cable and string be twisted to bring orientation back to the recommended spot?


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## mn5503 (Feb 21, 2006)

Nice job Ray. 


Some more great info on this site about tuning single cam bows and other tips on setting up. 

http://www.lawleroutdoors.com/Hunting/Hunting.asp?Game=Archery


Single cam tuning with really good explanations and diagrams. One of the best I've seen and easy to understand Cam orientation, ATA, BH, etc...

http://www.lawleroutdoors.com/Artic... Tuning&Call=Hunting/Hunting.asp?Game=Archery


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## ka30270 (May 20, 2009)

Posting to come back to later


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## redman (Feb 22, 2003)

How do you fix cam lean on bows with short axel to axel and hoyt cam half


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## twisted1600 (Feb 23, 2007)

*Thanks.*

Working on a project right now...I will definitely come back to your thread for tuning info!


Darton Maverick...up dating with PSE NRG single cam using Mattews 4" idler.
Waiting on string as I type.........


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## ahawk19 (Aug 16, 2007)

*great thread*

I learned aton. Could any of you guys start one on a two cam bow? Thatd be awesome. Thanks Ray for the thread.


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## hauntedbyelk (May 3, 2009)

*Great thread*

I'm thinking about buying a press and starting to work on my own equipment. I like to tune things and make them work better. Thanks for sharing your knowledge!


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## 12bhunting (Sep 9, 2009)

man you guys have got your stuff together man. thanks for the info


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## Ray.Klefstad (Oct 7, 2006)

*Another big myth in bow tuning....*



outback2hunt said:


> In regards to cam orientation, if the draw weight is reduced by backing out the limb bolts will the cam timing stay the same? If it changes should the cable and string be twisted to bring orientation back to the recommended spot?


It is a myth that you must tighten your bow down to max limb pressure before you tune.

Unless your string is really stretchy, your ATA and cam timing will not change when you reduce your draw weight. The only thing that may change is your tiller, but who cares about that as long as it is even.

Ray


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## zgozvrm (Jan 8, 2010)

Ray.Klefstad said:


> Unless your string is really stretchy, your ATA and cam timing will not change when you reduce your draw weight.


What is "ATA?"


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## popestev (May 4, 2007)

Axle to Axle


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## alexander (May 4, 2009)

bump


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## ELKhuntR (Feb 5, 2006)

That's funny. I lived down in So Cal for 3 years and shot the 3-d tournaments and saw plenty of archers shooting Bowtech bows.

Shot Malibu, Pasadena, Verdugo, Cherry Valley, Oranco, Riverside, Conejo and tuned at Woodley Park.

Anyways, thought your comment was interesting.

And good info below!



Ray.Klefstad said:


> Hi all.
> 
> Here is my current process for super tuning single cam bows. I have refined this process by tuning about 20 bows now with a wide range of arrows and broadheads. This is worth doing even if you plan to shoot mechanical heads as you will ensure you get optimal power to your arrow.
> 
> ...


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## hotfoot (Aug 23, 2009)

Great info Ray! I'm trying to get bullet holes with a new Z7. I'm getting holes now that are good but checking my wheel lean I find the straight edge is on the opposite side of the string at knock point by about a quarter inch. Have you seen this before or is there something I may have done wrong?


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## buckethunter (Dec 28, 2009)

ttt


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## Ray.Klefstad (Oct 7, 2006)

hotfoot said:


> Great info Ray! I'm trying to get bullet holes with a new Z7. I'm getting holes now that are good but checking my wheel lean I find the straight edge is on the opposite side of the string at knock point by about a quarter inch. Have you seen this before or is there something I may have done wrong?


Where do you live HotFoot? If you are not too far from So. Cal. come on by and we can dial it in.

If your arrow rest is set where you like it and you are getting bare shaft bullet holes, it is ready to move to broadheads. The static setting of idler wheel lean is just a starting point in my opinion. Dynanic testing (shooting arrows) is the true measure of what your bow (and arrow) is doing.

Ray


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## tsorion (Aug 4, 2008)

Hi,

I was reading your article bout super tuning the solo cam. 
I am confused how to sight in broadheads. Maybe it is just the wording.
The following 2 steps is confusing to me.
7. set top sight pin to top of sight guard. adjust sight gang so top pin is on at 20 yards with field points
8. On a windless day, broadhead tune at 20 yards, make micro adjustments to rest to move broadheads to field points, adjusting sight pin gang as necessary.

The sight gang. What is that exactly? 
Should I use a multiple pin sight to do this? I use a adjustable single vertical pin sight.

Could you please explain how to do this? I mean I know you already did. I am just having trouble understanding. Sorry.

I shoot a APA Viper.

apaarchery.comhttp://apaarchery.com

Thanks,
Tom


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## rigginuts (Dec 27, 2008)

I need some help. I have been having some tunings problems and hope maybe somebody will chime in. I am shooting a Mathews SB-XT 06 model, 71#w/ a 27" draw. I tried both a 340 and 400 spline FMJ. 

I adjusted my idler lean to 1/8" space at knock, set my arrow even with the bottom of the bugger botton hole, set my arrow level with rest, set my arrow 13/16" to CL from riser. 

I'm tearing hard right ( X-----) and moving my rest seems to may no great difference. What am I missing. 

Thanks,


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## rigginuts (Dec 27, 2008)

^^^^^^^


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## Camel (Mar 19, 2006)

WOW,what a tonne of info!!!This is one of the best and most informative post I have ever read on any forum.Thanks for all the info.I just got a PSE Bow Madness single cam and will be shooting it for the first time tonight.I am shooting x weave 200s at 27" and bow set at 60.lbs and 29" draw.I have everyhting eyeballed up as per what you say to do.I will try to paper tune it the way you described the best I can.won't have acces to a press while tuning so really can't dot he yolk twisting.But I will get it the best i can without moving the rest and then go to the archery shop and twist the yolks however they need to be twisted and go back and see what happens and so on till i get it right.Thanks again for a great and very informtive thread.will be printing it off so I can have the info with me as i tune.


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## rigginuts (Dec 27, 2008)

^^^^^^


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## 6APPEAL (Sep 1, 2009)

Great info. Gives me more to look at since I'm working on a bad left tear with a new arrow setup now. I didn't "feel right" Tuesday night when I was shooting, so I put the bow down and worked with a buddy on his set-up. He's now shooting bare shafts dead on with fletched out to 20 yards. I still think I need to fine tune my spine, but feel I'm getting close. 
John


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## cornfedkiller (Feb 16, 2008)

TTT..just wanted to bump this thread back up to the top, as alot of guys are probably getting ready to do a little turkey hunting, and are getting their bows tuned up..

There is alot of excellent information in this thread, and I can speak from personal experience that this tuning method works awesome! I just replaced the string on my DXT, and tuned it using this method. I was getting perfect bullet holes through paper. I went to shoot some broadheads yesterday, and I was only able to shoot at 20 yards, but from that distance, I was within an inch or so, so it looks like just minor rest adjustments will do the trick.

I have also used this method with my girlfriends razor edge, and although I havent had her shoot broadheads with it yet, it is tearing perfect bullet holes in the paper...

One thing I would like to stress is using bare shafts. Bare shafts seem to be much more finnicky and accurate. I had a slight right tear with my bare shafts, while fletched arrows looked perfect through the paper...

Thanks again for the great information Ray!




rigginuts said:


> I need some help. I have been having some tunings problems and hope maybe somebody will chime in. I am shooting a Mathews SB-XT 06 model, 71#w/ a 27" draw. I tried both a 340 and 400 spline FMJ.
> 
> I adjusted my idler lean to 1/8" space at knock, set my arrow even with the bottom of the bugger botton hole, set my arrow level with rest, set my arrow 13/16" to CL from riser.
> 
> ...


It sounds to me like you need to adjust your lean. First off, not exactly sure how many models prior to the SBXT, but the SBXT and later models like drop away rests at 11/16" off the riser, so you may want to move your rest back towards the riser (im assuming you're right handed) if you are shooting a drop away. Second, it sounds like you need to add some twists to the left yoke. Running a straight-edge down your string will only tell you so much, and your idler lean needs to be adjusted by bare shaft paper tuning...On my DXT, the if I run a straight edge down the idler, the arrow actually crosses the string near my loop (the idler SHOULD have some lean in it at rest (\), but if you look up your string at full draw, it should track pretty close).

*Think of the idler wheel thing this way..Rather than using idler lean to fix tears in paper, use the tears in paper to fix your idler lean...*

Another thing to remember: make sure you have a loose grip and are not torquing the bow at all, or you are going to give yourself a headache..


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## Bo Selecta (Apr 7, 2010)

I have followed the whole thread and it is excellent info for me as I will pick up my new Triumph tomorrow and intend to do my own set-up, maintenance and tuning from now on (for the first time).

I am still a little confused if I should be setting Idler wheel lean at a liitle less than brace, Brace or at full draw OR if I should just correct left / right paper tears by adjusuting twists in the yoke cables and leave it at that?


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## bowhuntr311 (May 20, 2009)

Awesome read. This is a super good read. Thanks Ray.


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## SARASR (Oct 30, 2009)

Nice thread Ray Thanks! I'm a bit of a tuning nut but never knew how to accurately assess cam/Idler wheel lean, looks like I'm headed back to the garage!


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## Tater1985 (Apr 28, 2008)

Good thead, posting so I can find it later.


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## erictski (May 20, 2009)

Ray

about how far do you paper tune from with your bare shafts...6 feet 10 feet just curious...ive got a left tear to get rid of and am thinking that is why my Broadheads and field points are just a bit off at 20 yards and cant get my bare shafts to hit at 20 with my fletched arrows...they stick in the target at an angle...


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## jace (Jul 16, 2005)

I have a drenalin that Im gettin back out of the rack now that Ive read this, awesome thread. cant wait to fiddle with it


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## El Boone (May 25, 2009)

Ray.Klefstad said:


> Hi Krieger.
> 
> Yes, and things get pretty strange when you try to patch an idler wheel lean problem by shifting the rest.
> 
> ...


You forgot 3) hand torque.

Lots of guys still shooting with a death grip.


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## Typical171 (Feb 23, 2010)

Very good thread!


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## String Playa (Sep 11, 2006)

Exactly! Great thread!!! Gave me such a good understand about stuff to check that had never cross my mind before! It's so clear now. Crystal Clear!!! 
Thanks Ray, quite enlightening!


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## kwaldeier (Jan 3, 2010)

wow a great thread. i was wondering the other day every single way i could tune my PSE bow madness XL and you just answered that. very old OP but still :thumbs_up:thumbs_up:thumbs_up:thumbs_up


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## bob7770699 (Dec 3, 2007)

Great thread!


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## Arkansas Slim (Oct 4, 2006)

good thread. bumping it.


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## flyboy9994 (Sep 27, 2010)

Just got back into bowhunting after a 10 year absence. I was an avid "do-it-yourselfer" and learned how to tune all of my own equipment, build my own arrows etc but have never tuned a single cam bow...

Anyway, long story short: I just bought a 10 year old High Country 4-Runner single cam bow. Sticker on limb says 29" and 70lbs. MXHL4 (Same cam Mathews used at the time I believe). Cam set to shortest draw length gives me 28" and I have it set to 65 lbs. Shooting 28" Red Head Carbon Max 2, 350 spine (Bass Pro shop house arrow) with a 100 gr head. Just now going over this bow and started basic adjustments and ran into a few questions about tuning.

1. NAP Apache drop away rest: Do I set up my arrows with the cock vane straight down? If so then the fletching will strike the shelf if I set arrow to the middle of the mount hole. Looks like it will be very near the top of the hole or even slightly above it. Is this OK? I am using 2" Blazer Broadhead vanes on a 28" arrow.

2. When viewing the bow from the rear (as if holding to shoot) the string is definitely NOT in line with the riser and limbs. The way this MXHL cam is set up, the string is further to the left of centerline and the idler wheel is directly in the center of the top limb. How can I possibly set up arrow centerline if the string is off center like this?? I other words, riser and limbs are like | and string is like / when viewed from rear. Is this normal? P.S. This is a right handed bow...

Exhaustive search and no luck with HCA on specs for this bow and cam so I'm trying to guess at a good "start point" for this bow. Thanks.

Randy


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## knapper2 (Dec 29, 2009)

Bump for a good thread.


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## cornfedkiller (Feb 16, 2008)

knapper2 said:


> Bump for a good thread.


Its an awesome thread. 

I just recently put a new string and cable on my bow and had it perfectly back in tune; shooting bullet-holes though paper, field points, broadheads, and bullheads all together, within 5 shots.


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## Stinger3G (Jul 16, 2012)

IChim2 said:


> Good post but i'm not sure about the berger button hole.I was told to center the bottom of the arrow shaft with the middle of the holes and thats how i've alwasys done it and seems to work great for me.I've also seen shops that lined up the bottom of the shaft with the bottom of the holes and i guess that would work to,but i perfere the other way.All rests are different.....and not all rests will allow for vane clearence.A few rests on the market will allow the adjustment for raising the launcher.....not launcher arm.Some rests that only allow you to adjust the launcher "arm" up and down doesn't mean you'll be able to have total vane clearence.....because your only moving the arm.....not the launhcer.2 shops that i know of say to set nock 1/8 high....another says nock level....for single cam.....i use the 1/8.Not sure if 1/8 or level makes that much difference.....but 1/8 seems to work good for me.


The 2012 pse manual says finger shooters have the nocking point slightly high, release aid shooters have the nocking point so that the arrow is level.


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## dberg76 (Sep 25, 2009)

saved


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## SpeedStar (Aug 25, 2014)

Great info here. Thanks for the help.


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## OregonKDS (Mar 6, 2014)

Tagged


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## KSQ2 (Oct 10, 2007)

Tagged -- great info!


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## gunning (Aug 29, 2014)

in for later


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## gumboman (Sep 3, 2019)

Just found this thread. Great info. Thanks. I'm tuning an Apex 8 and this will come in handy.


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