# Disbelief in paper tuning



## Brownie2 (Aug 29, 2013)

We have had a new archery shop open in the area (Springfield Archery) so I thought I would try them out for a tune up. I had them look over my bow check timing, poundage and then I went to shoot all seemed ok then I said "let's make sure where's the paper". Their response "we don't paper tune ". Seriously ? This can't be can it? I've never heard of this from a pro shop. I left there and went to scheels and my bow hasnt shot better I don't look for them to be around too long they are right between gander and scheels


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## ironman_gq (May 22, 2012)

Paper tuning isn't absolutely necessary, as long as the arrow is leaving the bow square and arrows group well with field points and broadheads, the average shooter will never have an issue. There are other ways to make sure a bow is properly tuned, paper just happens to be a quick and easy way to tune a bow to a shooter.


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## Brownie2 (Aug 29, 2013)

They stood behind me and watched and said it looked ok then I went to scheels and after we paper tuned and fixed what they did not it hasnt shot better I beat my best 3d score by 30 pts today


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## Huntinsker (Feb 9, 2012)

I never paper tune. I bareshaft and broadhead tune. I don't bother shooting holes in paper because I can bareshaft tune anywhere at any time as long as I have a target.


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## Jakepse (Dec 25, 2013)

Just because a shop doesn't paper tune, doesn't mean that they can't tune a bow correctly. Everyone at Springfield Archery is very knowledgable , and will make your bow shoot 100x better than scheels can. If you think that scheels can tune your bow better, than you know nothing about what makes a good bow tune.


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## Brownie2 (Aug 29, 2013)

You can't argue with results I went to brownstown sun and shot 30 points higher than my previous best. I absolutely love how condescending people are on here. I just made a post to give props to a kid at scheels and then somebody has jump in and throw insults


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## IrregularPulse (Sep 22, 2012)

Brownie2 said:


> You can't argue with results I went to brownstown sun and shot 30 points higher than my previous best. I absolutely love how condescending people are on here. I just made a post to give props to a kid at scheels and then somebody has jump in and throw insults


You made the post to bash the first place for not paper tuning with a side note of props to Scheels. Don't act like that wasn't the basis of your post now that someone has stood up for SA.


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

Brownie2 said:


> You can't argue with results I went to brownstown sun and shot 30 points higher than my previous best. I absolutely love how condescending people are on here. I just made a post to give props to a kid at scheels and then somebody has jump in and throw insults


So you bashed and got bashed. I won't paper tune for anyone. They shoot and I will help. Paper tuning for the most part is but one step of tuning. You might get lucky and you might not. Other tuning methods will normally give best results.... Just a plain fact.


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## wraith69 (Feb 20, 2008)

I never paper tune


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## Fury90flier (Jun 27, 2012)

Brownie2 said:


> You can't argue with results I went to brownstown sun and shot 30 points higher than my previous best. I absolutely love how condescending people are on here. I just made a post to give props to a kid at scheels and then somebody has jump in and throw insults


you can absolutely argue results.

how did you tune at the other shop? Seems like you did no real tuning, just a basic setup. 

Go do a 20+ yard bare shaft test and see if the Paper test took...often they don't. You'll get a "perfect bullet hole" only to do a complete proper tune; retest with paper then find you get tears.


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## b0w_bender (Apr 30, 2006)

Fury90flier said:


> you can absolutely argue results.
> 
> how did you tune at the other shop? Seems like you did no real tuning, just a basic setup.
> 
> Go do a 20+ yard bare shaft test and see if the Paper test took...often they don't. You'll get a "perfect bullet hole" only to do a complete proper tune; retest with paper then find you get tears.


Completely agree, I've totally quit paper tuning. there are a lot of scenarios where paper tuning will actually result in a poor tune. I found this to be the case with Whisker Biscuits and also with finger shooters. By far the best results I've ever gotten are through bare shaft tuning. Once you have a proper bare shaft tune inevitably the broadheads also shoot the same as field points. Ive wasted hours trying to reconcile the results between paper and bare shafting and without question the bare-shaft tuning method is superior! IMHO bare shaft tuning is a marketing gimmick to give the uninformed a warm fuzzy feeling about their bows tune. Having confidence in your bows tuning is more likely to affect your performance then the bows actual tune.


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## Huntinsker (Feb 9, 2012)

b0w_bender said:


> Completely agree, I've totally quit paper tuning. there are a lot of scenarios where paper tuning will actually result in a poor tune. I found this to be the case with Whisker Biscuits and also with finger shooters. By far the best results I've ever gotten are through bare shaft tuning. Once you have a proper bare shaft tune inevitably the broadheads also shoot the same as field points. Ive wasted hours trying to reconcile the results between paper and bare shafting and without question the bare-shaft tuning method is superior! IMHO *paper tuning *is a marketing gimmick to give the uninformed a warm fuzzy feeling about their bows tune. Having confidence in your bows tuning is more likely to affect your performance then the bows actual tune.


Fixed it for ya :darkbeer:


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## b0w_bender (Apr 30, 2006)

Huntinsker said:


> Fixed it for ya :darkbeer:


Excellent work thanks!


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## Jakepse (Dec 25, 2013)

For another, the techs at scheels can't shoot their bows worth a ****. I know this to be fact. And YES you have be able to shoot a bow above average to know what makes it shoot good. Over here at SA, among their staff is state, national ans even world champion archers. Can't argue with that one.


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## walbash635 (Nov 6, 2012)

I've never paper tuned a bow and I've killed truckloads of game. If i was gonna target shoot I may go to the trouble......


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## bbjavelina (Jan 30, 2005)

I paper tuned for a few years and though it was helpful. Then I started bareshafting. I saw the light.

Paper can be helpful at the very beginning if you do it close enough. Here, I'm talking 3 feet, or so. Much farther than that and the fletching is taking over and skewing the results. It's my opinion that paper tuning done at only one distance is worthless. You need to vary the range to get a true read from the paper. I have heard tell that some proshops only do it at one distance, and not very close. Hey, they're there to make a buck. 

For me it's;
Set the centershot by observing how the arrow looks on the bow.
Set the arrow up at 90 to the string.
Modified French tune to 30 yards.
Bare shaft until it's the best you can get at the longest distance you can.
Check broadheads and make minor adjustments if needed. Usually none to not much.
Enjoy those backstraps.

Best of luck to you.


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## stork64 (Sep 11, 2010)

Jakepse said:


> For another, the techs at scheels can't shoot their bows worth a ****. I know this to be fact. And YES you have be able to shoot a bow above average to know what makes it shoot good. Over here at SA, among their staff is state, national ans even world champion archers. Can't argue with that one.


Yeah but Scheels has a better selection of baseball gloves, basketball shoes, golf clubs, trucker hats, and fishing gear. Does your "pro" archery shop have all that? &#55357;&#56841;


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## Jakepse (Dec 25, 2013)

stork64 said:


> Yeah but Scheels has a better selection of baseball gloves, basketball shoes, golf clubs, trucker hats, and fishing gear. Does your "pro" archery shop have all that? 😉


cant say they do. you got me on this one!


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## bfisher (Nov 30, 2002)

Brownie2 said:


> You can't argue with results I went to brownstown sun and shot 30 points higher than my previous best. I absolutely love how condescending people are on here. I just made a post to give props to a kid at scheels and then somebody has jump in and throw insults


Which means nothing as to how the bow is tuned. Maybe you were just shooting better that day. Maybe your yardage estimates were better. I believe it was back in to '70's Terry Ragsdale took a bow out of a box, installed rest and sight and won at Vegas. Bow was never even tuned. It's only got to be close if you can shoot.


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## Fury90flier (Jun 27, 2012)

What is interesting is how we perceive what works and what doesn't.

How many of you have got a new bow, a new sight, a new rest and said "wow, that's it" OR "my groups shrunk because of X component"....THEN a few weeks later, start dropping scores? None of those purchases made you shoot better. What happened was you stopped thinking about the problem you had on the other component. Now with a clear head, you're doing what you're supposed to...and shooting better. Get back to your norm...drop points.


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## subwrx300 (Sep 2, 2014)

I read an interesting article on paper tuning a few days ago that put me off the practice. 

https://sites.google.com/site/technicalarchery/technical-discussions-1/arrow-tuning

Basically, the author on Technical Archery found that the natural oscillations of the arrow in flight occur no matter what. As such, the distance of paper tuning can and will show differences in "correct" tune procedure. 

For instance, while you may get the ideal "bullet hole" at 3ft, move to 5ft and the nock may be high, left or other. Same at all different ranges. 

It makes sense to me that a vibrating node will continue on some level for several feet and drive the tuner crazy chasing his/her tail to get bullet holes at different ranges. 

For this reason, bare shaft seems to make the most sense: if loads can be stabilized on non-fletched arrows at distance, that would present a better real world tune IMHO.


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## thwackaddict (Sep 1, 2006)

b0w_bender said:


> Completely agree, I've totally quit paper tuning. there are a lot of scenarios where paper tuning will actually result in a poor tune. I found this to be the case with Whisker Biscuits and also with finger shooters. By far the best results I've ever gotten are through bare shaft tuning. Once you have a proper bare shaft tune inevitably the broadheads also shoot the same as field points. Ive wasted hours trying to reconcile the results between paper and bare shafting and without question the bare-shaft tuning method is superior! IMHO bare shaft tuning is a marketing gimmick to give the uninformed a warm fuzzy feeling about their bows tune. Having confidence in your bows tuning is more likely to affect your performance then the bows actual tune.


Ditto!

I would often get perfect bullet holes at several different yardages only to find out that POI for BH and FP's were way off. Get that fixed and my groups shrunk a bunch. 

So I now skip paper tuning.


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## ron w (Jan 5, 2013)

allot of shops don't paper tune because it is somewhat time consuming . add to that, the level of employee competency most shops get, for the wages they pay, and it's easy to see why shops say they don't.
all else considered, the bottom line is,.... how the arrows group at the target,.... not how they come out of the bow.


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## wacker stacker (Feb 2, 2006)

Huntinsker said:


> I never paper tune. I bareshaft and broadhead tune. I don't bother shooting holes in paper because I can bareshaft tune anywhere at any time as long as I have a target.


This ^. I think paper tuning can be misleading and is only a baseline.


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## Fury90flier (Jun 27, 2012)

ron w said:


> allot of shops don't paper tune because it is somewhat time consuming . add to that, the level of employee competency most shops get, for the wages they pay, and it's easy to see why shops say they don't.
> all else considered, the bottom line is,.... how the arrows group at the target,.... not how they come out of the bow.


You're hitting the nail on the head here. the only thing to add is the lack of education that the general archer has.

It seems that there is a failure on explaining exactly what paper tuning is doing. And the failure of explaining that YOU the archer are screwing the shot more than the bow. 

but I guess the same can be said for starting out bare shaft tuning...too many people watch nock kick on the first step.


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## TMan51 (Jan 25, 2004)

ironman_gq said:


> There are other ways to make sure a bow is properly tuned, paper just happens to be a quick and easy way to tune a bow to a shooter.


I have a paper tuning rig in my basement shop.

I use it with shooters that lack the form to use a bare shaft, or are not safe enough to use walk back/French tuning. Broadhead tuning is mandatory with any stage 1 method, as bullet holes in paper, straight entry with a bare shaft, or good alignment with French tuning do not always mean a fixed blade head will fly correctly. There many ways to "skin the cat", but not all "skinners" are up to every method.

As time and hassle go, paper is the low end of the options.


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## TNMAN (Oct 6, 2009)

I still like both paper and bare shaft. Don't understand the thought process: paper is for wiping/bare shaft is the thang---not when both methods essentially tell me the exact same things, and respond to the exact same remedies. Paper is fairly easy; it can also save bending an expensive bare shaft with a new setup. A lot of my arrows still have some aluminum in them.

Paper tuning shines when it's dark, raining or blowing outside, like it is tonight in Tennessee. Usually takes a nice day for me to shoot bare shafts well.

Most bow shops don't do either one. If they have a paper rack, it's kept well hid back where customers can't find it. Learn to tune your own bow if you're serious about the sport.


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## ron w (Jan 5, 2013)

I quit paper tuning or bare shafting a long time ago. after years and years of shooting and tuning and working on bows, you get a sort of "sixth sense' about how the bow is shooting, just by the feel of the shot and what you see from behind the bow. I can't count the times, I've set up a target bow, and shot a few good rounds, then went to the paper rack , just to check the flight and got an almost perfect hole, with just a touch of "up tear" for the blade launcher....just exactly the way I want it. 
perfect bullet holes are not in any sense of the word, perfect for shooting.


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

Okay, I don't paper tune as per say. I use it as a indicator as in something not going right I'll shoot through paper to see what's going on. I don't know how built it, but I probably have one of the most elaborate paper tune machines ever, but old. You know how a window works, up, down. On this "window" at the top and bottom of it are steel plates that clamp the paper in place - loosen, pull a new section of paper down from the above paper roll holder and tighten plates back down - ie, tight paper. The framed "window" is where you shoot through, adjustable for height for the person. This club moved and this well made paper stand/machine was going to be burned with all else not going with the club. Said it was seldom ever used.

I don't bare shaft tune, not after the "beat me to death" sessions I've had. I tried nearly a week to get my bow to bare shaft tune and at best I had the bare shaft good for height, but impact a good inch right of the fletched arrows and crisscrossing the fletched arrows. This particular bow does not have yokes, being binary, and if it did I probably wouldn't yoke tune either. No one yoke tuned around my area, not that I know of. I've competed for 15 years, shooting 3D, Field, Outdoors, Indoors. I worked at archery shop for 5 years. No one ever asked for their bow to be yoke tuned, only that the cam or wheel be made as straight as possible with the bow string. 

I haven't tried yoke tuning where one has the wheel/cam straightened with the bow at full draw. I can imagine the work entailed, twisting one side or the other of the yoke, bow pressed how many times and using a some straight edge or arrow across the cam to see how straight the cam is to the drawn bow string. And isn't it a trade off? Instead of cam straight with bow string with bow undrawn you have the cam straight with the bow drawn and then with the cam straight with the bow drawn you have the cam not straight with the bow undrawn. So you have still lateral string travel one way and lateral string travel the other way. A trade off.

I have spoke with archery companies of bare shaft tuning. Most all stated the bare shaft need be weighted in the area with like weight of the vanes to be used. Most note using electrical or Scotch tape. Take a Blazer vane, 6 grs. times 3 = 18 grs. Or a Bohning 4" Killer vane, 13.5 grs. times 3 = 40.5 grs. This has to effect FOC and then to what effect? Perhaps where I failed.....
Another on AT, a strong advocate of bare shafting, has been challenged and I don't know or haven't seen different. He slices off the wing of the vane, leaving the base. Granted, far from a vane, but still material and weight there that may effect flight.

So many Posts/Replies of bare shafting here and in General Discussion and probably noted here. Just because a bow is bare shaft tuned or French tuned doesn't mean you will get perfect flight with a fixed broadhead as all broadheads are not equal... Personal experience, my French tuned hunting bow does shoot several fixed broadheads with pin point accuracy and then it would not shoot near as well with a notably good broadhead.


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## Fury90flier (Jun 27, 2012)

which bow was it you couldn't tune? Curious as to timing/sync vs cam relation to pivot point and center of the bow...many people fail to tune according to the geometry of the bow- they just go by "standards". not pointing a finger...just a topic of discussion. 


next time you're in houston area...find me- we'll play with bare shaft tuning- I'll show you something that either you've forgotten about or you haven't been shown. Probably moot, I know, as you already have your methods...but fun, regardless.


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

I am from the not so great state of the guy we disown, don't want in office and want removed from office, Illinois.


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