# An open letter to Mike T and the great folks that make up the ASA



## SNAPTHIS (Jan 16, 2003)

First I would like everyone to know that I love the ASA and all the people who are a part of it from the ladies in the trailer to the range officials to the competitors and Mike T as well. I have always been treated first class and the folks of ASA have always done whatever they could to put on the best 3D archery tournaments in America. I have started shooting 11 years ago and I've been to more than 50 National Events put on by the ASA including for the first time all seven of the events in 2010 I even managed to win Shooter of the Year in Senior Open class this year! My reason for this letter is the recently announced schedule for next year. I live in the middle of North Carolina and we now have 4 of the 7 shoots next year at or beyond the Mississippi river. Considering the current state of the economy, including the price of gas or air fare, hotels etc. I fear the ASA getting to far from the base of the shooters who have supported and grown the ASA over the years. I understand you guys in Texas are loving this but there are a ton of shooters here in NC and VA that are scratching their heads right now wondering what to do in the coming year? I can't shoot the ASA if it goes belly up and I do understand business very well so here's an idea if your going to continue to move West then it's time to have a Eastern division and a Western division with their own National Events and a Classic that falls in the middle geographically that brings the shooters from West and East together for the World Championship. Shooters of the Year would be detirmined in your own division with the Classic/World Championship as the last mandatory event like it is today. Today the ASA is a tournament a month what it could be is a tournament in each division every month or about 1 every 2 weeks. Most of the untapped shooters that could help grow the ASA even further are in the north so at least in the Eastern division by placing tournaments near the Mason-Dixon line you would retain your South east shooters and pull shooters from PA,NY, OH,MI, WI,IN etc. Once you put the northern shooters within 6 or 7 hours of a National Event and they experience the ASA and they can even see shooting the whole circut. I've been to the IBO shoots and there is no comparison, this is not a condemnation of the IBO but an opinion. The difference between ASA and IBO is the ASA is Mike's business and he runs it like someone trying to succeed so Mike how about growing the ASA even further and making it easier for Archers to attend your National Events as thirteen events could help your economy of scale, and put more numbers on the bottom line and secure a place for us to shoot long into the future. Thanks for listening, Mark Trombley Kernersville North Carolina.


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## 3Dblackncamo (Jul 22, 2009)

I am with you on this it would take 72 hrs of vacation just to shoot the classic,texas, and la, this is just to much i dont mind making the trip once but twice in 1 yr i dont know what they are thinking but it is difficult


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## pseshooter300 (Oct 16, 2005)

never thought of the east and west that is a good idea


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## 12sonly (Jan 6, 2007)

i agree 100% with you mark.the employees of asa have always been good to me and my son.i will be missing 4 events because money is tight. the way things are going its just going to be pro shooters,vendors, and the people that live within 6 to 8 hours of the shoot at the events. i'm in the process of tring to find what is involved in hosting a national event.


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## Dr.Dorite (Oct 27, 2008)

Very well said Mark, and congratulations to the 2010 ASA Senior Open Shooter of the Year. The competition in Senior Open are, in my opinion, really some of the best 3D shooters, and your scores leave a newcomer like me simply shaking my head, and wondering, how many years of shooting, and how many hours of practice it takes, to shoot such scores.
As I said, I'm a newcomew to ASA, and 3D shooting, even though I have been a diehard bowhunter for a number of years. Last Feb, 2010, was my first 3D and the ASA PROAM event an Gainesville really impressed the wife and me. We decided to continue to follow the PROAM events and observe, as well as enjoy shooting in the tournaments. Unlike, you I have not been involved that long, but made almost all of the 2010 ASA PROAM events, and can really see where you are coming from.
Your letter certainly addresses the issues in a logical way, and not only brings to light the problem people have in not being able to make all of the events because of the travel involved, but instead of just complaining, or venting your frustrations, your solutions that you brought out are, in my opinion, some of the best suggestions, and make a lot of sense.
I don't know if Mike will be able to act on your suggestions, or even agree with you, but you certainly have said what a lot of people have been thinking, but we just needed you to put into words. You've done an very good job with the way you suggested it...Thanks


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## T Miller73 (Jul 22, 2008)

I agree with you too . That would be a great opportunity for the ASA.


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## NCSUarcher (Feb 14, 2005)

I believe this is the next big step in the upward/forward direction to progress and grow that the ASA needs to take! Excellent Mark! This could work! I myself having been working every other weekend for 4 years and have had to take 70-100 hours of vacation a year just to make the 3-4 proams that I do. Next year I am going to a m-f job and was very excited to shoot 6-7 proams and go for SOY, now with the announcement I will be back to 2-3 due to distance issues. Hopefully 2012 a new system to advance the ASA can be put in place like you have suggested!


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## treeman65 (Nov 24, 2005)

Mark that is a great post and I hope they will at least take a loook at it.
Now that they are moving shoots far away made it easy for me to decide on what to do for the 2011 season.
Well I can tell you I am not going to spend every weekend shooting nor will I use a bunch of vacation time going to the pro/ams.
Looks like 3d is going to be a thing of the past for me.


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## Jame (Feb 16, 2003)

No offense fellas but if there was 2 shoots in NC I guarantee you there wouldnt be any griping from the Northern Folks. I bet that Mike had good reasons for the shoot being held in LA twice. I am sure it is hard to find places big enough to hold a National Event. I do feel for you guys but I will almost bet you that the numbers will not be down at anyone of these events. 

I like the Idea on the 2 different regions but I dont think it will work. Mainly cause the ASA would step on other organizations toes. It would be hard to book 2 events a month and not have them booked on the same dates as one of the other organizations. I just dont think it would work.
Good luck and I hope to see you guys at these events.
Jame


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## MoBuzzCut (Aug 22, 2007)

Jame said:


> No offense fellas but if there was 2 shoots in NC I guarantee you there wouldnt be any griping from the Northern Folks. I bet that Mike had good reasons for the shoot being held in LA twice. I am sure it is hard to find places big enough to hold a National Event. I do feel for you guys but I will almost bet you that the numbers will not be down at anyone of these events.
> 
> I like the Idea on the 2 different regions but I dont think it will work. Mainly cause the ASA would step on other organizations toes. It would be hard to book 2 events a month and not have them booked on the same dates as one of the other organizations. I just dont think it would work.
> Good luck and I hope to see you guys at these events.
> Jame


I agree Jame and my feeling on the 2 differnt regions until there is an actual pro tour like in golf I think it would hurt, With 2 regions which shoots do the pros go to. I think that moving these shoots to other locations beside the southeast in the long run will help


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## nchunter (Dec 4, 2003)

I agree that something has to be done. I too live in NC and used to attend 3 or 4 events each year. I have not been to a national ASA shoot in the past 2 years because they are just too far. If there were an east/west circuit, I would most likely shoot the whole thing as would many, many more shooters. From what I have read the #s were WAY down this year, especially at the Classic from the years past. ASA is by far the best organization out there, I hope it continues to listen to the shooters and makes the right choices to grow the sport.


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## jmvaughn06 (Jan 10, 2009)

Can I say that I am right now not a part of the ASA or have not been to any of the shoots as of yet. However I have really gotten into 3D this year and want to make it in an organization like the ASA. But when I see where the shoots are financially I could only make a couple of those shoots and that would be stretching it. I am new and want to be a part of this level of competition, but when I look at the ASA's schedule compared to that of the IBO's, the IBO's looks a little more reasonable for someone that lives in our area. I try and support all of our local shoots even in bordering states, but want to get into competing on a national level, but looking at the two organization's the IBO's schedule just fits better. I'm not trying to compare either organization, and I know that if your going to the national level you have to be willing to make sacrifices, it's just hard for some people right now. NC has a shoot earlier in the year at Union Grove, this one shoot attracts around 650 shooters was the count this year, so I think the support would be there if they could hold a shoot or two close to the NC area. Just my thoughts as a newbie.


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## MBH300 (Oct 11, 2006)

very well put Mark. as others have said you have several good ideas.


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## Ksman (Apr 8, 2010)

You guy have it allot better then we do out here in the middle of the US. Most ASA shoots are out of the Question for us. You have to be Rich to make all the shoot back east.
Paris Texas is about it for us. Only shoot with in 10 Hour drive from here. And the guy out west Don't have ASA at all.
Texas is not the west it more the middle of the country.
Ksman


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

Just yesterday LD Falks related of the ASA having some 7,000 members and growing. Mike and his great crew have kept ASA in a position where cost to both members and clubs is far below others. I tried to complement Mike right after the ProAm this year, but Mike said he couldn't do what he does without his staff doing all the heavy work! Clipboard in hand the man was just everywhere. He was on every range, made announcements, announced the shoot out and announced and handed out awards. I wondered if he stopped when he slept. His staff was outstanding. At the registration booth the girls had answers right on the tip of their tongue. You went to your assigned range and your score cards were ready for you. What hold ups on the range were address right now. Water and ice were on the constant move so no one suffered. We may not seen any hitches, but from the outside the event was nothing but a well oiled machine.
As for clubs hosting state events, don't worry. You will have people to help you get going, both before, during and after. You don't have to have everything exact. Your color of stakes or even number of will work, just tell ASA members what color for their class and if you have to combine stakes so be it. When we first hosted a state qualifier our colors didn't match ASA's and our 4 stakes were combined for the 6 maximum distances. Later, of our State Championship, questions needing addressed, LD was on the other end of the Cell phone to answer them. He was in Europe instructing...and he took the call! We have a new State Director and he's already on the move and setting the stage for next year.
It's no wonder why ASA is growing.....


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## 12sonly (Jan 6, 2007)

Jame said:


> No offense fellas but if there was 2 shoots in NC I guarantee you there wouldnt be any griping from the Northern Folks. I bet that Mike had good reasons for the shoot being held in LA twice. I am sure it is hard to find places big enough to hold a National Event. I do feel for you guys but I will almost bet you that the numbers will not be down at anyone of these events.
> 
> I like the Idea on the 2 different regions but I dont think it will work. Mainly cause the ASA would step on other organizations toes. It would be hard to book 2 events a month and not have them booked on the same dates as one of the other organizations. I just dont think it would work.
> Good luck and I hope to see you guys at these events.
> Jame


the numbers were down last year at the classic last year.all i would like to see, is the classic be centrally located.i would love to see east and west.no i dont think booking 2 events in a month would be a prolbem, shooters would just have to make choices.


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## JawsDad (Dec 28, 2005)

I'm constantly amazed at the number of people that feel centrally located means east of the Mississippi.. I have several friends that want to shoot ASA but are in NM, AZ and CA so they are seriously disadvantaged without having a 16-24 hour drive. I guess that's a population base that nobody cares to entice to shoot ASA. Rather it's seemingly always about attracting the North or a need to placate those in the SE. If it should be centrally located, I still say it should be in the Kansas City area.


I think those that continue to hammer on the heat issue might need to go back and look at the climatology of the US. During the week of the classic this year, the temps were within 3-5 degrees of Lousiana at every ASA shoot site, or they were being dumped on with rain. The reality is, during that time frame it's still possible to have high 90 to 100 degree temps in Illinois as it is in Mississippi to Texas. Even NC is hot that time of year with oppressive humidity, I hear the NC shooters comment about this in the field forum frequently.


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## MoBuzzCut (Aug 22, 2007)

JawsDad said:


> I'm constantly amazed at the number of people that feel centrally located means east of the Mississippi.. I have several friends that want to shoot ASA but are in NM, AZ and CA so they are seriously disadvantaged without having a 16-24 hour drive. I guess that's a population base that nobody cares to entice to shoot ASA. Rather it's seemingly always about attracting the North or a need to placate those in the SE. If it should be centrally located, I still say it should be in the Kansas City area.


I agree there are alot of shooters out West that people dont seem to think about.Everyone keeps saying that the numbers were down due to the heat and location well it was hotter here in MO than the it was at the Classic at the the time I think numbers down had to do with the economy. I know that is why we did not make the calssic this year.


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

If Texas keeps up they just might be a state closer to you or if you have ASA shoots in your state, help Texas get bigger numbers. Their state championship had near or 300 contestants. Not really sure, but perhaps have your membership assigned to Texas so you can least shoot in their championship. Numbers make it happen.


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## cenochs (May 2, 2007)

I don't see a problem stepping on other organizations toes ! The ASA already does this by starting competition before Vegas or Indoor Nationals. It would be a good thing to step on the IBO's toes and squeeze them until they fold..ASA is the best organization out there for competitive 3D bar none! Here is a easy and simple way to locate shoots.. Hire a marketing firm plug in all the members and Pro Am participates zip codes and you will finf which areas will be best for shooters travel and profitability!!! Maybe a easy solution would be for shooters that compete for shooter of the year only require 4 shoots for shooter of the year this will allow more people to participate in shooter of the year that can't afford to travel to shoots that require to much time from work and money!


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## 12sonly (Jan 6, 2007)

JawsDad said:


> I'm constantly amazed at the number of people that feel centrally located means east of the Mississippi.. I have several friends that want to shoot ASA but are in NM, AZ and CA so they are seriously disadvantaged without having a 16-24 hour drive. I guess that's a population base that nobody cares to entice to shoot ASA. Rather it's seemingly always about attracting the North or a need to placate those in the SE. If it should be centrally located, I still say it should be in the Kansas City area.
> 
> 
> I think those that continue to hammer on the heat issue might need to go back and look at the climatology of the US. During the week of the classic this year, the temps were within 3-5 degrees of Lousiana at every ASA shoot site, or they were being dumped on with rain. The reality is, during that time frame it's still possible to have high 90 to 100 degree temps in Illinois as it is in Mississippi to Texas. Even NC is hot that time of year with oppressive humidity, I hear the NC shooters comment about this in the field forum frequently.


when i say centrally located i mean in the central location of all the shoot sites.if i am right asa did have shoots in the western part of the us in the 90's,dont know why they didnt go back.


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

12sonly said:


> when i say centrally located i mean in the central location of all the shoot sites.if i am right asa did have shoots in the western part of the us in the 90's,dont know why they didnt go back.


Probably numbers. ASA was North once or twice (?) and stopped having the event. Okay, ASA is growing. Sooner or later ASA will be other places. I hope sooner.


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## Jame (Feb 16, 2003)

12sonly said:


> the numbers were down last year at the classic last year.all i would like to see, is the classic be centrally located.i would love to see east and west.no i dont think booking 2 events in a month would be a prolbem, shooters would just have to make choices.


The numbers at the classic are always down in comparison to the rest of the Pro Ams. The problem about shooters making choices is ASA would be forcing that issue which is not what any Great Organization will want to do. There are some people that love the IBO or love there target side of archery more than other venues or organizaitons but enjoy shooting all the different venues available. If you force your shooters to make a choice either ASA, IBO, NFAA etc because the ASA has booked 2 shoots for the month because they have a East and West region then the numbers will still be down. You wont be accomplishing anything IMHO. 
Just my 2 cents.
Jame Jamison


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## Sith of Archery (Nov 5, 2008)

theres more shooters east of the Miss. river than west!


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## JSTHNTN (Apr 15, 2008)

I agree 100% The location in the tournaments will definally play a role in what I will be doing next year also. Was planning on all 7 before they came out with the locations but not going to make it now. Looks like maybe 2.


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## pseshooter300 (Oct 16, 2005)

im thinking about just shooting the local curcuit around here in my area and see what happens in 2012.


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## VeroShooter (Jul 14, 2005)

Centrally located among the states that actually have an ASA Federation. I am sure if any state would get going, get members and get involved with the federation and hold qualifiers and a state championship then ASA could look at the state as a viable place to go. Until then why in the world would an org consider having a shoot where there is no participation? I think it would be awesome if all 50 states had members that supported their own state qualifiers and championships. You can't get national level shoots without state level shoots - it has to start at the grass roots level.


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## Jame (Feb 16, 2003)

I agree totally with VeroShooter. Well said.


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## Jame (Feb 16, 2003)

JSTHNTN said:


> I agree 100% The location in the tournaments will definally play a role in what I will be doing next year also. Was planning on all 7 before they came out with the locations but not going to make it now. Looks like maybe 2.


This is what I dont understand. ALot of the guys said they were gonna make all 7 untill they found out the classic was gonna be at LA again. They all wanted a chance for SOY. Dont make any sense when you can drop on of your scores which means you can miss one Tournament and still be in great shape. You have to make the classic so this means dont shoot the First one in LA. 
I just dont understand how you can go from gonna make all 7 to maybe 2 now. I know these shoots are far for some and I agree with some of you guys points but Mike is never gonna please us all. Just how it is.


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## okarcher (Jul 21, 2002)

Jame said:


> This is what I dont understand. ALot of the guys said they were gonna make all 7 untill they found out the classic was gonna be at LA again. They all wanted a chance for SOY. Dont make any sense when you can drop on of your scores which means you can miss one Tournament and still be in great shape. You have to make the classic so this means dont shoot the First one in LA.
> I just dont understand how you can go from gonna make all 7 to maybe 2 now. I know these shoots are far for some and I agree with some of you guys points but Mike is never gonna please us all. Just how it is.


For the first time in my life I agree with Jame. I think some just like to gripe.


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## VeroShooter (Jul 14, 2005)

I actually think we can get something good out of all this. The griping is coming because the area served by ASA is growing and the geography of the situation presents obstacles. Now it seems there is always a large group of shooters who are not near the shoots no matter where they are held. This is good and bad. More shooters but bigger area. Mike and the ASA will, as usual, come up with a great solution/compromise. My estimated round trip travel time for next year is 181 hours. With it being me, my wife and son, it makes splitting costs with others hard and airline tickets for 3 is tough too but these shoots have become a part of our lives and we will have to figure something out.


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## HokieArcher (Mar 13, 2009)

Yeah you can qualify for shooter of the year with only six tournaments but it is pretty hard to place unless you make all 7 events. Everybody has a bad day or equipment problems plus some ranges are easier and have higher overall scores than others so unless you are lucky and miss the tough one you are SOL (unless your name is Matt Varnes). I am gonna try to make it to all of them and I am not upset that the classic is in LA, I just like a little variety and would rather not go there twice.


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## 3Dblackncamo (Jul 22, 2009)

I know a lot of people who did not shoot texas or the classic this yr and it was not due to the heat it was de to the amount of travel and the high cost


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## 44yds&in (Jan 8, 2009)

Colorado adding some change, we hosted an ASA state championship this year, it was the only sanctioned event in the state and I think the first ever ASA state championship, I can only say that D was awesome to work with and we are doing our part to grow the membership in the true western part of the country. I am all for a west circuit, but until then I will continue to save to attend the current PRO AM schedule.


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## VeroShooter (Jul 14, 2005)

44yds&in said:


> Colorado adding some change, we hosted an ASA state championship this year, it was the only sanctioned event in the state and I think the first ever ASA state championship, I can only say that D was awesome to work with and we are doing our part to grow the membership in the true western part of the country. I am all for a west circuit, but until then I will continue to save to attend the current PRO AM schedule.


Thats awesome 44! As the ASA grows west and North we are going to see changes. Hopefully you end up with a bunch of ASA clubs, qualifiers and a big championship. Stay involved and grow your state.


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## Jame (Feb 16, 2003)

44yds&in said:


> Colorado adding some change, we hosted an ASA state championship this year, it was the only sanctioned event in the state and I think the first ever ASA state championship, I can only say that D was awesome to work with and we are doing our part to grow the membership in the true western part of the country. I am all for a west circuit, but until then I will continue to save to attend the current PRO AM schedule.


Thats awesome. I hope it does well in your area. Thats a start and as long as you keep promoting it, it will keep growing. I am not opposed to doing some shooting in Colorado. 
Good Luck,
Jame


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## Old Man Archer (Mar 31, 2009)

cenochs said:


> I don't see a problem stepping on other organizations toes ! The ASA already does this by starting competition before Vegas or Indoor Nationals. It would be a good thing to step on the IBO's toes and squeeze them until they fold..ASA is the best organization out there for competitive 3D bar none! Here is a easy and simple way to locate shoots.. Hire a marketing firm plug in all the members and Pro Am participates zip codes and you will finf which areas will be best for shooters travel and profitability!!! Maybe a easy solution would be for shooters that compete for shooter of the year only require 4 shoots for shooter of the year this will allow more people to participate in shooter of the year that can't afford to travel to shoots that require to much time from work and money!


Why would you want another Organization to fold just because you feel ASA is the best for you? I don't belong to the IBO but can tell you that they lobby for your hunting rights and help to protect your right to hunt and enjoy archery they are not just a 3-D organization. I do belong to the ASA and the NFAA and would rather see all three grow and get stronger than to wish harm on any. The IBO has done a lot for the sport of archery and I hope they are around for a long time.


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## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

Kansas is centrally located in the US. For years most shoots were on east coast and far to far for many of us in the central regions of US. Hard to please everyone. ASA seems to know what there doing. Texas has done a fine outstanding shoot and Oklahoma has supported ASA well for years.
DB


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## cenochs (May 2, 2007)

Old Man Archer said:


> Why would you want another Organization to fold just because you feel ASA is the best for you? I don't belong to the IBO but can tell you that they lobby for your hunting rights and help to protect your right to hunt and enjoy archery they are not just a 3-D organization. I do belong to the ASA and the NFAA and would rather see all three grow and get stronger than to wish harm on any. The IBO has done a lot for the sport of archery and I hope they are around for a long time.


You may want to dig a little deeper in your research before you start giving the IBO praise, if you want 3D archery to grow it will not grow with 2 organizations with 2 totally different set of rules! There is nothing wrong with the ASA absorbing the IBO and then 3D archery will grow. In other sports such as golf baseball football NASCAR etc do you see 2 organizations competing against each other with different set of rules? NO! The way 3D archery is now it is just slowing their own death with no talk of a unified set of rules or one organization that governs all competitve 3D archery! Does no body look to the future or would you just like it to stay the same? Another thing no one has committed about is the idea of using a marketing firm to locate the best geographic location to hold shoots? It would be easy to do just use the zip codes of current members and pro am participates! Mike runs a business he should know this and use it to increase turnout and revenue! Not everyone will be happy but that is life jus like me I am not happy about 3 of the locations and I will just have to suck it up and go or stay home and wish I was there!


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## 3-D Quest (Jan 26, 2007)

Mark,
This is a very good post, I also think you should post this same letter on the ASA forum.


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## Jame (Feb 16, 2003)

cenochs said:


> You may want to dig a little deeper in your research before you start giving the IBO praise, if you want 3D archery to grow it will not grow with 2 organizations with 2 totally different set of rules! There is nothing wrong with the ASA absorbing the IBO and then 3D archery will grow. In other sports such as golf baseball football NASCAR etc do you see 2 organizations competing against each other with different set of rules? NO! The way 3D archery is now it is just slowing their own death with no talk of a unified set of rules or one organization that governs all competitve 3D archery! Does no body look to the future or would you just like it to stay the same? Another thing no one has committed about is the idea of using a marketing firm to locate the best geographic location to hold shoots? It would be easy to do just use the zip codes of current members and pro am participates! Mike runs a business he should know this and use it to increase turnout and revenue! Not everyone will be happy but that is life jus like me I am not happy about 3 of the locations and I will just have to suck it up and go or stay home and wish I was there!


Yes actually there is. There are 3 different Football Organizations. NFL, Arena Football, and I beleive it is the CFL but I do agree with some of your points when it comes to 3D. I still think if we had 2 ASA shoots a month it would step on some of the Major indoor shoots.


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## leemc (Oct 2, 2010)

Well said Mark I live close to most this year but I remember traveling east every month. If the shoots were in a line from London Ky to Gainsville Fl I'd be happy


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## Tallcatt (Jul 27, 2003)

VeroShooter said:


> Centrally located among the states that actually have an ASA Federation. I am sure if any state would get going, get members and get involved with the federation and hold qualifiers and a state championship then ASA could look at the state as a viable place to go. Until then why in the world would an org consider having a shoot where there is no participation? I think it would be awesome if all 50 states had members that supported their own state qualifiers and championships. You can't get national level shoots without state level shoots - it has to start at the grass roots level.


Vero Shooter is correct....hi Mike.

ASA did not just throw a dart at a map when they chose Paris, Texas for a Pro/Am site. Texas has led the nation in attendance at ASA state level events for the last several years. We had over 1800 shooters that competed at state qualifiers in 2010. In 2010 Texas had the largest state championship with 307 shooters. Arkansas had the 3rd largest state championship with 184 shooters and Oklahoma had the 4th largest state championship with 175 shooters. Texas, Oklahoma and Arkansas have worked very hard to build their state programs and attract shooters. Mike and Dee are very aware of what is going on at the state level and state level numbers factor into scheduling decisions.

If you want a Pro/Am in your area develop your ASA State Federation programs. 

In 2011 Texas will have three regions with 6 events in each region for a total of 18 state qualifiers. In 2005 we had 5 state qualifiers......and no Pro/Am.

Build your state program.....Build your ASA shooter base.....Get a Pro/Am in your area.


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## geezer047 (Mar 11, 2007)

Mark, good idea. BTW Congrats you and Brian went to the wire. Now, I agree maybe we need a East and West div. There's 5 of us that travel together. We use a big passenger van and split costs. But it stills costs us an average of 300.00 each. Sometimes more, plus 4 days away from work or home. For me its no problem because I have a lot of days vacation built up but for the 4 younger guys you're talking about at least 2100.00 out of their family budget plus having to take off from work and not getting paid. They've already said that they won't be able to afford it next year with the 2 in La. and the 1 in Tx. We'll see, I'm sure the wheels in Mike T. head are turning:wink:


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## HokieArcher (Mar 13, 2009)

Tallcatt said:


> Vero Shooter is correct....hi Mike.
> 
> ASA did not just throw a dart at a map when they chose Paris, Texas for a Pro/Am site. Texas has led the nation in attendance at ASA state level events for the last several years. We had over 1800 shooters that competed at state qualifiers in 2010. In 2010 Texas had the largest state championship with 307 shooters. Arkansas had the 3rd largest state championship with 184 shooters and Oklahoma had the 4th largest state championship with 175 shooters. Texas, Oklahoma and Arkansas have worked very hard to build their state programs and attract shooters. Mike and Dee are very aware of what is going on at the state level and state level numbers factor into scheduling decisions.
> 
> ...


I think it is awesome that ASA is so strong in Texas and this is what we need to keep the sport growing. The state has also provided a great place to hold an ASA producing great turn outs as well.

I wonder if how many shooters there would be if VA/NC/TN were combined into one state (all three states combined are only half the size of Texas)? Basically I would think that the density of shooters in this area is higher, but then the attendance at a state championship may go down due to travel. It is hard to compare directly state to state.


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## sagecreek (Jul 15, 2003)

Great idea, I like it, but feel that Mike T and crew would be twice as tasked trying to keep everything well oiled, so to speak. I think it would burn them out.


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## VeroShooter (Jul 14, 2005)

Tallcatt said:


> Vero Shooter is correct....hi Mike.
> 
> 
> Build your state program.....Build your ASA shooter base.....Get a Pro/Am in your area.


Very well spoken Mike. Dang there's a lot of Mike's to deal with!

Florida has divided into 3 regions for 2011 also. We will be holding a minimum of 3 qualifiers in each with at least one region holding 6. We should have approximately 12 qualifiers this year. TallCatt has built an incredible model in TX for other federations to look at. In Florida we are well on our way to another super year as we build ours. The geographical growing pains will be figured out by the fine folks of ASA and we will continue to be able to attend world class shoots.


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## treeman65 (Nov 24, 2005)

shoot you wouldnt even hold a qualifier:mg:


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## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

Sith of Archery said:


> theres more shooters east of the Miss. river than west!


How many ASA qualifiers did your stat have last year? 
DB


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## Tallcatt (Jul 27, 2003)

HokieArcher said:


> I think it is awesome that ASA is so strong in Texas and this is what we need to keep the sport growing. The state has also provided a great place to hold an ASA producing great turn outs as well.
> 
> I wonder if how many shooters there would be if VA/NC/TN were combined into one state (all three states combined are only half the size of Texas)? Basically I would think that the density of shooters in this area is higher, but then the attendance at a state championship may go down due to travel. It is hard to compare directly state to state.


This is a great thread with some great ideas and I do not want to get off topic but I would like to address the quote above. 

Yes Texas is a large state, but 80% of our ASA competitors have always come from a relatively small area of north central Texas. This is why we are going to a regional format. This format will allow shooters from more areas of the state to compete within their region without having to drive more than 2.5 to 3 hours to get to an event. This format will also allow shooters in each region to be elgible for SOY. This format will give more Texas ASA Federation shooters the opportunity to qualify for state, compete for SOY, and not have to drive all over the state in doing so. We are expecting over 400+ shooters for this years state championship which will be hosted by Archers for Christ in Paris, Texas. The state championship will be held at the Paris Pro/Am site on range A & B.


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## HokieArcher (Mar 13, 2009)

I am sorry if you took my post wrong and I wasn't trying to make Texas look bad. I even said in my post that I thought that the number of shooters at the state shoot would decrease due to travel if the states were combined. I was just saying that it is hard to compare one state to another and that the states with the highest number of shooters at the championship doesn't necessarily mean its the best. I think it would be cool to build a model using the addresses of each member to see where the most dense areas are, it could also be useful in helping to determine the best areas to hold the national shoots. 

I give Texas a ton of credit, I have heard nothing but good things about the Paris ASA shoot (except for the wind haha) and the format that you have laid out for next year sounds incredible.


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## Kstigall (Feb 24, 2004)

Bummer, just checked the drive times from Richmond, VA. For me it's 11.5 hours to Fl., 17 hours (x 2) to West Monroe, 19.5 hours to Paris TX, 12 hours to Metropolis, 7 hours to Augusta and 8.5 to London. I was thinking earlier in the summer that I was just getting to a point in life where maybe I could shoot enough tournaments to compete for shoot of the year if not starting in 2011 then 2012. Thought I could skip Paris and if things went well I'd make the haul to the Classic.......... It may be good thing. I don't even have to consider figuring out how to do it all and whether I wanted to spend that much money for really nothing.


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## Kstigall (Feb 24, 2004)

HokieArcher said:


> I think it is awesome that ASA is so strong in Texas and this is what we need to keep the sport growing. The state has also provided a great place to hold an ASA producing great turn outs as well.
> 
> I wonder if how many shooters there would be if VA/NC/TN were combined into one state (all three states combined are only half the size of Texas)? Basically I would think that the density of shooters in this area is higher, but then the attendance at a state championship may go down due to travel. It is hard to compare directly state to state.


If you combined Va, N.C., Kentucky, Georgia and Tenn. you would still have a geographic area much smaller than Texas.


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## bhtr3d (Feb 13, 2004)

treeman65 said:


> shoot you wouldnt even hold a qualifier:mg:


Ohh,,, Im pretty sure his club will have one


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## Bubba Dean (Jun 2, 2005)

gee looked at drive times for us from here on the frozen tundra of Indiana. Gainesville 16, W Monroe 17(X2), Paris 18, Augusta 13, London 7 and Metropolis 9. Sorry guys but it looks like I will be at all of them again this year. LOL!


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## deadeyedickwc (Jan 10, 2010)

i see the same kind of posts in the fita section it happens with the naa nfaa also the attitude seems to be if its not in my back yard i wont support it .i guess thats your choice the associations were here before us and i guarantee they will be here after were done shooting ,you do have a choice


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## JawsDad (Dec 28, 2005)

Door to door if I were to hit all 7 would be a total of 9,530 miles round trip and roughly 150-160 hours of drive time. With gas, hotels, food, entry fees and miscellaneous expenses. The conservative budget will be about $4,900. Guess I better start smooching some serious butt and early this year.


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## DeluxeRaider (Mar 13, 2007)

I do not see the OK, TX, LA archers complain that it is a 16-17 hour drive to Florida, or that it is a 14-15 hour drive to Augusta, or that in 2008 we made the 12-13 hour drive twice to Columbus.

It is just the nature of the beast....we will again make the shoots from TX and know that in future years, we will not have 3 shoots so close to us.


Just for comparison sake here was 2010 for us (and we live in the eastern part of Texas, many that travel live 3-4 hours west of me):

Newberry, FL - 2000 miles
Columbus, GA - 1500 Miles
Paris, TX - 200 Miles
Augusta, GA - 1840 Miles
London, KY - 1800 Miles
Metropolis, IL - 1300 Miles
Monroe, LA - 540 Miles

That is right at 9,200 miles for us to drive round-trip...and that is just part of it. So before you start complaining about the multiple trips to LA and TX remember that there are plenty of us that drive just as far for shoots that direction, and you have not heard us complain about it.

Just some food for thought


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## VeroShooter (Jul 14, 2005)

I feel for ya man. this year our RT mileage will be 10,890.


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## shooter74 (Jul 7, 2005)

people do live other places besides NC. VA


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## sagecreek (Jul 15, 2003)

shooter74 said:


> people do live other places besides NC. VA


Yeah, but they don't count. 

NADZ all the way!


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## Kstigall (Feb 24, 2004)

Upon further review........

For what the ASA circuit, state championship and it's state qualifiers cost I can shoot 5 IBO tournaments AND take a hunting trip out west if I so choose. The furthest of the 5 IBO tournaments is 10.5 hours. So I retract my earlier whining as it's worked out better for me. I wouldn't have researched this if this thread hadn't popped up. I just like archery and enjoy competing and I have no illusions that IF I won a low level SOY that it has any real value.

So in reality it's no biggie to me. Somewhat disappointing maybe but not a biggie.


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## cenochs (May 2, 2007)

I have a question for the states holding qualifiers this is off the subject.. At your qualifiers do you use the same targets that will be used during the year at the Pro Ams? I know the ASA puts a list of targets that will be used during the years competition.


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## tntone (Aug 13, 2006)

what nees to be done is to set up regionals.. southeast, notheast, midwest, and so forth.... you cant drive across the country every month to spent $400 to $600 a tournament just to have fun, i cant afford it....


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## sagecreek (Jul 15, 2003)

cenochs said:


> I have a question for the states holding qualifiers this is off the subject.. At your qualifiers do you use the same targets that will be used during the year at the Pro Ams? I know the ASA puts a list of targets that will be used during the years competition.


I do, and most clubs do. It is highly recommended.


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## Sith of Archery (Nov 5, 2008)

deluxeraider said:


> i do not see the ok, tx, la archers complain that it is a 16-17 hour drive to florida, or that it is a 14-15 hour drive to augusta, or that in 2008 we made the 12-13 hour drive twice to columbus.
> 
> It is just the nature of the beast....we will again make the shoots from tx and know that in future years, we will not have 3 shoots so close to us.
> 
> ...


gotta go where the money is


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## Tallcatt (Jul 27, 2003)

cenochs said:


> I have a question for the states holding qualifiers this is off the subject.. At your qualifiers do you use the same targets that will be used during the year at the Pro Ams? I know the ASA puts a list of targets that will be used during the years competition.


All of our east & west region clubs have 100% McKenzie universal targets (high, low 12 & 14). The south region club hav about 80% McKenzie Universal targets. Some of our clubs have enough targets to set two 30 target ranges. We set one 30 target range for the open classes and one 30 target range for the pins classes.

McKenzie targets are required to host the state championship.


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## JawsDad (Dec 28, 2005)

Sith of Archery said:


> gotta go where the money is


You base this on what? Population density or actual shoot attendence numbers? Sure, the numbers might be higher in terms of overall population, but do they actually show up to shoot in higher proportions to the population? We had nearly 200 show up to shoot our state ASA last year and it was held in an area that was fairly remote from where the population centers are. Plus, it was held in the 100+ degree heat (as with many shoots in the country when held in July/Aug).

What I see from this entire discussion is that shooters on the west side, by and large, will travel and deal with it (because that's how it always has been; travel east or don't shoot). While those on the east tend to complain and threaten not to go. Of course this is not applicable to everyone as I'm sure there are some on the west the complain and on the east that do not, but it does seem to be an overriding sentiment. 

I guess I miss the entire point of the complaints. If it's something I enjoy doing, and I have the availability of schedule to go, I'm going to go regardless of location. If I can't go, I'm not going to gripe about the organization not putting the event(s) in my backyard. If that were the case, I'd be whining about the NFAA events constantly.


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## bjbarker (Dec 31, 2006)

JawsDad said:


> I guess I miss the entire point of the complaints.QUOTE]
> 
> People complain about anything they can't do and want to, from east or west, thats human nature. The point of this thread is that it's not feasible for alot of shooters to go long distances that are from the east or west and would like to go and to brainstorm some ideas that would give people more options to compete on the national level. ASA is a great org. and i'm sure it will continue to evolve for the shooters, but you got to speak up...not gripe. It's not a east/west thing, it's a everybody is traveling to much thing.


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## JawsDad (Dec 28, 2005)

I just ask this. If ASA where to regionalize these types of events, would you be willing to pay triple or quadruple the rates they pay currently to support it? Would vendors be able to afford to travel to all the venues to support the events?

The cost of having a event so everyone is not traveling too much has to come from somewhere. I don't know what the cost would be, but I bet it's a lot more than most expect it would be.


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## HokieArcher (Mar 13, 2009)

bjbarker said:


> JawsDad said:
> 
> 
> > I guess I miss the entire point of the complaints.QUOTE]
> ...


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## Sith of Archery (Nov 5, 2008)

the locations should be at /near where the most of the participants /CUSTOMERS are coming from.....why have a location thats closer for 100 and 500 has to drive farther...not a lot of commmon sense.


It would be really dumb to make it harder on 500 people so it would be easier for 100.... if you really want to be fair

why spend $500 to get a return of $100....

the needs of the many shoud outway the needs of the few.


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## SNAPTHIS (Jan 16, 2003)

BJBARKER you got it!!!!!! When I started this thread it was not to complain but to expand people's thinking as to what could be. In business your always trying to increase your market share and in this case this market share is finite so giving more people the opportunity to spend their money with you strenghthens you and weakens your competition. From a selfish standpoint I travel alone usually so 17 hour drives are no fun for me or the guys out West. ASA becoming bigger benefits everyone that wants to shoot 3D from the local level all the way to the National Events. We are all part of a big business that will either grow or die but just staying the same is a prescription for a slow death. I want to be able to participate against the best and in a venue that makes sense ASA is that venue. I want to see it grow and get even better as I probably have 8 or 10 more years to shoot God willing, and even though Super Senior shooter of the Year might not mean something to ya'all I'd still like to win it someday just to say I was pretty good once or twice in my life. Mark Trombley


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## carlosii (Feb 25, 2007)

Bubba Dean said:


> gee looked at drive times for us from here on the frozen tundra of Indiana. Gainesville 16, W Monroe 17(X2), Paris 18, Augusta 13, London 7 and Metropolis 9. Sorry guys but it looks like I will be at all of them again this year. LOL!


/...they forgot to tell some of the older guys that they did away with the 55 mph speed limit, eh?
you need to move down south here with some of us hillbilly hoosier, bubba. you ain't countin' round trip on those times are you???
btw, i'll make all but WMLa pro/am.


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## absolutecool (Mar 26, 2006)

VeroShooter said:


> I actually think we can get something good out of all this. The griping is coming because the area served by ASA is growing and the geography of the situation presents obstacles. Now it seems there is always a large group of shooters who are not near the shoots no matter where they are held. This is good and bad. More shooters but bigger area. Mike and the ASA will, as usual, come up with a great solution/compromise. My estimated round trip travel time for next year is 181 hours. With it being me, my wife and son, it makes splitting costs with others hard and airline tickets for 3 is tough too but these shoots have become a part of our lives and we will have to figure something out.



Yep, most folks may just be traveling alone or one guy with a bunch of other one guys splitting costs....when you have a whole family that travels and shoots you are certainly looking at some major money being dropped on something that is supposed to be fun!! Most of us don't do this for a living so why complain about where the shoots are? Everyone was fussing three years ago when gas was hovering around $5 a gallon and the shoots were still full!! 

I burn 90% of my vacation to go to these shoots!! It still doesn't mean I am gonna win a dime..I go because I love to shoot and love the folks I shoot with, they are my extended family.

We may not make as many shoots next year but we don't really know now. Last year we said we were only gonna go to a couple and we ended up at all of them but Texas...


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## carlosii (Feb 25, 2007)

I drove to all the pro/ams last year with the exception of Columbus. I suspect that being retired and free from any job commitments played a large part in that. I was not able to have anyone to share expenses with except at two of them. I didn't keep a detailed accounting of my expenses but I'd venture to guess that gas, hotel,meals, entry fees, and misc added up to an average of $300.00-$400 per shoot. Not cheap but I don''t spend a lot of money on other hobbies so I budget for these pro/am expenses.
IMHO trying to set up regions and then developing some "play off" system would result in a dilution of ASA resources including manpower. Again in my opinion what sets ASA apart from IBO is the professionalism of the ASA staff who do the actual work at the pro/ams. I wonder if there is a ready pool of such folks to do the work necessary to put on several regional shoots that would retain the prestige and success of the current pro/am system.


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