# Cock feather orientation



## Joe Ryan (Jun 8, 2014)

I've always had my cockfeather pointed out, away from the riser. But, I've read hear that some of you do the opposite and point the cockfeather toward the bow. Can someone explain the logic behind this ?


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## Big Jack (Jul 13, 2009)

The reason for cock feather in is to give more clearance for the hen feathers,knock an arrow cock feather out and look at it from behind and then do the same feather in.Shooting off the shelf can cause hen feather contact depending on the bow shelf,the arrow stiffness ,knock height and release,
,


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## Doofy_13 (Jan 2, 2012)

So if the cock vane is out one of the hen feathers will be pointing down towards the riser. Depending on how deep the shelf is, the arrow may not flex enough for the down pointing hen feather to clear it. With the cock feather in, you still have a hen feather pointing down but it is moved significantly towards the edge of the riser. This way when the arrow flexes around the riser it has a better chance of clearing the shelf. The arrow should flex enough to make the cock feather clear the riser.


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## Doofy_13 (Jan 2, 2012)

Doofy_13 said:


> So if the cock vane is out one of the hen feathers will be pointing down towards the riser. Depending on how deep the shelf is, the arrow may not flex enough for the down pointing hen feather to clear it. With the cock feather in, you still have a hen feather pointing down but it is moved significantly towards the edge of the riser. This way when the arrow flexes around the riser it has a better chance of clearing the shelf. The arrow should flex enough to make the cock feather clear the riser.


Forgot to say....in a perfect world. I like a stick on rest...don't have to worry about the hen feathers hitting because the arrow is elevated so I shoot cock feather out for a second anchor point...that being the cock feather on the tip of my nose.


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## Rick Barbee (Jan 16, 2013)

Tony (Viper1), 

I *agree* for the most part, and I love ya man, but it can make a difference when shooting off the shelf with a riser that has a real wide shelf,
especially if you are shooting vanes off the shelf.

I tune for complete fletch clearance, and fletch orientation normally don't make one bit of difference.

My primary reason for cock fletch in is - I use a fletch to the nose as one point of my multi point anchor.
With cock fletch in, the upper outside hen fletch is perfect for helping me keep head alignment without
getting my head tilted to far forward. Since I have a fairly low anchor, using cock fletch out, and using it
to put my nose on causes me to have to tilt my head to much.

Make sense?

Rick


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## Viper1 (Aug 21, 2003)

Rick -

Right back at ya, but -

I don't think that was the OP's question. 

If you bought a bow or riser with that wide a shelf, you screwed up. That's really all there is to it. Get a file or grinder and fix it or get rid of the bow. 
Most shelves are narrow enough where that just isn't necessary. What you're describing what I would consider a "special case" scenario.

The feather to the nose thing is a personal preference and not a great one, IMHO, and if you have to make concessions for that, it's cool. It's just not a requirement and again more of a special case. The reason I don't think the feather to the nose is a great idea, is because both a variables - IOWs both are "soft" and getting a consistent alignment may be more of a security blanket and a real cause and effect. However, since Psychology does play a role in performance, I wouldn't tell some one who is successful doing that to stop.

My point was/is that if you get better flight with cock feather in - you have a tuning problem and shooting cock feather in is just masking it. I'm just honest enough to admit that when I've done it. 

Viper1 out.


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## Bustoff (Sep 3, 2014)

I joined this board last Labor Day and before coming here I had never heard of anyone shooting cock feather in. I'll be 60 in February and I've been shooting on and off all my life. Guess I need to get out more..................


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## Viper1 (Aug 21, 2003)

Bustoff -

The reason for that is that with a rig that's anywhere even close to being tuned, the arrow is only in contact with the rest or shelf for the first couple of *inches *of flight. 
Everybody has a pet theory for a "better mouse trap", only problem is that they keep forgetting to tell the mouse...

Viper1 out.


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## Yewselfbow (Jan 28, 2006)

Bustoff said:


> I joined this board last Labor Day and before coming here I had never heard of anyone shooting cock feather in. I'll be 60 in February and I've been shooting on and off all my life. Guess I need to get out more..................


I have to agree with Bustoff, in almost 50 years of shooting I've never seen (except by mistake) anyone shoot with a cock feather in. Having said that, all my bows are English longbows with no shelf and no cut outs .... where should my cock feather be?


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## GEREP (May 6, 2003)

Yewselfbow said:


> Having said that, all my bows are English longbows with no shelf and no cut outs .... where should my cock feather be?


Just out of curiosity Yew, if you are shooting a bow with no cut out, have you ever cut your knuckle with the leading edge of a quill?

KPC


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## Yewselfbow (Jan 28, 2006)

GEREP said:


> Just out of curiosity Yew, if you are shooting a bow with no cut out, have you ever cut your knuckle with the leading edge of a quill?
> 
> KPC


GEREP .... No .... never have ... not even a scratch and I make all my own wooden arrows


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## rattus58 (Jul 9, 2007)

Yewselfbow said:


> I have to agree with Bustoff, in almost 50 years of shooting I've never seen (except by mistake) anyone shoot with a cock feather in. Having said that, all my bows are English longbows with no shelf and no cut outs .... where should my cock feather be?


It shouldn't matter without a shelf would it? The arrow flexes before it moves and away from the riser. If your feather touches the riser at that point... I'd be thinking I've got more serious problems than the fletch... :laugh:


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## secretagentmann (Jul 6, 2012)

Concerning that Hoyt riser pic. Mine is set up the exact same way.
Gm2 of shelf w/ two small furniture pads for a side plate. 
I was shooting arrows that were to weak, 500 cut at 30.5 125 up to 200 kept getting slapping on the riser. 
Cock out, semi accurate. Cock in, terrible. 

Went to a 400 w/ 300 total up front, slap noise is gone, cock out. Right on. Even a bad release yields 2 or 3 inches from poi. And that's at least 20 yds. Shooting today from 40 yds. 
Cock in, can't tell a difference. 
(I could possibly cut the 500s shorter and get better flight but 400s worked great)
I'm pretty much in agreement with viper.
Although I'm sure there are exceptions...
Some bows act crazy. 

For the most part If the arrow is tuned well / matched up to the bow and you, and your form doesn't suck, it shouldn't make that much difference. 
Just my opinion from my experience.


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## GEREP (May 6, 2003)

rattus58 said:


> It shouldn't matter without a shelf would it? The arrow flexes before it moves and away from the riser. If your feather touches the riser at that point... I'd be thinking I've got more serious problems than the fletch... :laugh:


Correct. On a bow with a horizontal shelf, depending on the width, it might take an inch or more of lateral flex (at the point the feathers are passing the riser) before the lower hen feather clears the outer corner of the shelf. On a straight riser, once the arrow is clear of the vertical plane of the riser, it's got nothing else to impact, except for maybe the archer's knuckle.

KPC


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## Captainkirk (Sep 18, 2014)

Lest we forget.....
Feathers fold up (compress) to almost nothing under pressure; it's what they're designed to do. Grab an arrow around the fletching and squeeze if you need a demo. Now try it with vanes. Big difference, no?
I could..._maybe_...see a miniscule difference in flight pattern if you rotated cock feather position within a group of arrows. But for shooting a half-dozen in the back yard, if you position the CF the same way for all six, I find it hard to believe it would change anything.And if it did, just compensate. The two keys to good grouping are form and consistency.
Now if I could just master them.....:wink:


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## Easykeeper (Jan 2, 2003)

I don't think it really matters, especially shooting feathers. I shoot cock feather out simply because that's how I've always done it and cock feather in looks weird to me. I've made a point of shooting for extended periods by nocking the arrow any way it came out of the quiver, cock feather in or out, and have never noticed any difference in flight or feather wear. 

That said, I can understand the reasoning behind cock feather in. Theoretically there is better clearance between the fletching and the shelf or riser. On top of that, depending on how the grip is cut and whether you are shooting off the shelf or not, there could well be more than the shelf that needs to be cleared. Most of my bows are made to be shot off the shelf and the shelf is very low and close to the top of my hand. Shooting cock feather out as I normally do, I can see where even a properly tuned arrow could possibly touch the top of my hand although it would still be well clear of the shelf. In effect, the top of my hand extends laterally beyond the shelf of the bow. On the rare occasion that I feel the hen feather on the top of my hand I can usually trace it back to some release or form issue on my part, usually inconsistent finger pressure on the string or general fatigue and form breakdown. The feathers though are very forgiving in this area, maybe not so much for those trying to shoot vanes off the shelf.

I should add a pet peeve of mine, I hate bows with wide shelves that look like you could hold a dance on there and have room for a couple tables too. I like the shelf to be as small as practical but will admit it's mainly for aesthetic reasons. Anything else looks unfinished and crude to my eyes. Even though it may have nothing to do with shooting qualities, a nicely shaped and tapered shelf is one of the little things that really makes a bow "right" in my eye.


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## GEREP (May 6, 2003)

Easykeeper said:


> I should add a pet peeve of mine, I hate bows with wide shelves that look like you could hold a dance on there and have room for a couple tables too. I like the shelf to be as small as practical but will admit it's mainly for aesthetic reasons. Anything else looks unfinished and crude to my eyes. Even though it may have nothing to do with shooting qualities, a nicely shaped and tapered shelf is one of the little things that really makes a bow "right" in my eye.


I don't particularly like the "dance floor" shelf either but sometimes in order to get all the other characteristics that you DO like, it comes with the package. 

KPC


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## Stub (Aug 13, 2013)

I'll add in some personal experience just a few days ago. 
I cut some of my shafts to 29 1/2". Just to test out. I never cut my arrows before, been shooing them full length. 

By habit, I always set my cock feather away from riser. I bare shafted the 29.5" shafts and they flew straight at 10-12 yards and called it good, fletched the 3 shafts . After about 30 minutes of shooting, bottom-right feather towards the riser was showing wear on all 3 new cut shafts. I switched the nock around to point the cock feather towards the riser. Since then, no more of my feathers are showing any wear. I tested 125g and 170g tips and arrows fly dead straight 25 yard-ish. 

Right now, just debating if I like the shorter arrows. I always used full length and having that point stick out full draw was nice to have as a reference.

I'm shooting a Titan 2 riser off the shelf built up by LAS. Here is a picture of the feather wear if anyone is interested.


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## Sanford (Jan 26, 2009)

Joe Ryan said:


> I've always had my cockfeather pointed out, away from the riser. But, I've read hear that some of you do the opposite and point the cockfeather toward the bow. Can someone explain the logic behind this ?


Things are generally stated assuming standard set ups and configurations. 

What cannot be taken into consideration as standard advice are folks shooting equipment in ways it was not designed to shoot in the first place or in choosing arrows that do not clear in standard formation but chosen for other reason. 

They may or may not have valid rationale for it, but unless you too are shooting exactly the set up they are, then that should fall under the caveat of special case - making a concession that "normally" would not be there.

The decision point is really whether you too should set up or buy your bow exactly that way so that you too would "need" to turn the cock feather in. In this regard, when dealing in "standard" set up and tuning, it's not a factor of tuning protocol as much as it is a compensator for non-standard configuration.

I treat that a lot like the double nocking point issue. If I "had" to have it to shoot and arrow cleaner, I'd look for other fixes for my own peace of mind. If do I use one, it's for my own peace of mind and not out of need to make things work properly (which is exactly the reason you see them on famous Oly bows - insurance and peace of mind - definitely could shoot without it). 

In the end, just a personal call, though, on what one calls a band-aid, or not.


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## Sanford (Jan 26, 2009)

Viper1 said:


> Easy -
> 
> A lot of bows with "wide shelves" are cut very far past center and therefore designed or intended to be shot with a rest or rest/plunger configuration. With that, the "shelf" is no where near as wide as it would appear "naked". The aircraft carrier shelf on a non-center shot bow/bow intended to be shot off the shelf is IMHO a design flaw and I agree, it can be an annoyance, hence the file or grinder comment.
> 
> ...


I would also agree with Barney in that feathers a pretty darn forgiving of minor contact. Riding the shelf enough to get wear is more shaft or quill, which indicates one is at some extreme in arrow tune or rest configuration.


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## tjandy (Jun 10, 2005)

I hope I don't get called back to this thread!


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## GeorgV (Sep 13, 2012)

At short distances (up to 30 meters - yes I am "meters guy"), cock feather in or out - won't matter at all. Even if you shoot off shelf/knuckles.


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## Rick Barbee (Jan 16, 2013)

LOL, thanks Tony. I've been told I was a special case often. 
I've often wondered what they meant by it, but I'm beginning to understand. 

This is my current tune, that shoots off the shelf fantastic with cock fletch in, but not worth a darn cock fletch out.

*##################

Goldtip 7595 Traditional XT

30" to back of point

Front End:
11gr insert
12gr (1") 2216 footing 
40gr internal weight
175gr points
238gr total front load

Tail End:
3.5" 2216 fletch end footing - 42gr
3 x 2" Blazer vanes - 18gr
T-4 Turbonock - 12gr
72gr total tail load

Total arrow weight - 640gr

Front of center ballance - 13.2% 

##################*























I think I have a pretty good tune. 

Rick


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## Sanford (Jan 26, 2009)

Rick, that's some dang good shooting for 30! I think too, it's never been questioned that "some" contact is prevalent in shelf shooting and why for even some standard shelves vanes are not recommended. Even a light brush with rubber fletch is going to make big bounce.


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## Rick Barbee (Jan 16, 2013)

Thanks Sanford.

I had a heck of a time getting these arrows to the weight I want them, and still maintain the spine I need.
In order to shoot the vanes off the shelf I have to shoot arrows a bit weak, and then compensate/tune to outside of center.
This gives me just the right amount of flex for clearance with cock fletch in, but not quite enough for cock flecth out.
I could tune them to shoot cock fletch out, but I don't want to have to weaken the spine that much.

Rick


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## turbonockguy (Mar 4, 2013)

The turbonock effectively make the arrow act like it has a stiffer spine. ( less flex) so it basically keeps closer to the riser . It will actually rotate 45 degrees to the riser. So with cock feather in you are in all likelyhood rotating enough that the vanes clear the edge of the shelf with minimal contact. with the cock feather out one of the vanes rotates into direct contact with the shelf. Put some baby powder on the shelf and shoot both ways. and see if you get tracks.

years ago I did a spine experiment where I shot 1716 aluminum shafts, (for about a 35 lb max) Out of a shooting machine. With a 70 lb compound. With regular nocks at 20 yds I had two arrows break in mid air. and had about a 48 inch group measuring the flyers. The same 1716 shafts with a prototype t-4 nock shot a 9/16 inch group. no flyers no broken shafts. I had a long string on the trigger of the shooting machine. It was quite scary to watch those 1716s do the ultimate porpoise!


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