# Hoyt Paper Tuning Help



## bboswell (Jul 29, 2003)

Now I'm more confused:

Easton lists tail left tear as weak arrow for Rt handed shooter.

Martin lists tail left tear as a stiff arrow for Rt handed shooter.

According to arrow chart I should be on the stiff side.


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## TANC (Mar 14, 2005)

You didn't mention centershot. Move your rest to the left in small increments and keep trying if your arrow matches the spine charts.

TANC


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## bboswell (Jul 29, 2003)

bboswell said:


> 05 ProTec
> No matter what I do to the rest I get a tail left tear which should mean weak arrow?
> 
> I have centered rest, moved left and right with virtualy no diff. in tear for better or worse.


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## mike121554 (Mar 21, 2004)

*timing*



bboswell said:


> bboswell said:
> 
> 
> > 05 ProTec
> ...


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## bboswell (Jul 29, 2003)

mike121554 said:


> bboswell said:
> 
> 
> > time cams at full drawor change hand possiton i have shot hots for 25 years this cam and half is hard to keep in time
> ...


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## Bert2 (Feb 16, 2003)

Yes nock-left tear supposedly means weak arrow. If anything your arrows are on the stiff side so that probably isn't it.

I've had the same problem with my Hoyts and it always comes back to grip. Even if you grip the bow with an open / relaxed / loose hand you can still apply some torque and it's amazing how big a difference it makes if you want to get critical with paper tuning.

Try playing with your grip. Hold the bow at full draw, and wiggle your hand back and forth to the right and left. If you are holding the bow nice and loose in your hand, you'll notice some play or float in the middle where the bow can either turn to the right or left a little without applying much pressure to the grip at all. I call this the "slack." Try "taking out the slack" to the right and the left by turning your wrist just a little bit and applying just a tiny bit of pressure to the grip, and see what that does to the tears.

And then if you really want to drive yourself nuts, try paper tuning with a bare shaft . . . that is super critical and with show variations in your grip that you can't even feel . . .


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## Jabwa (Dec 10, 2004)

If you look closely at the Easton tuning manual you will notice that there is a footnote that says "left and right tears can mean THE REVERSE"! For me a left tear means stiff, while for my wife it means weak. Individual form differences? Probably, but who knows? I don't lose sleep over it, I just deal with it. 
Small changes (25 gr) in point weight or 3-4# difference in draw weight don't seem to make much difference unless the spine is really close. What I recommend is to take the correct spined arrow (charts, TAP, AA, etc.), cut one of them 3" too long, shoot it and whatever tear (left or right) you get, that means WEAK. Now cut off 1/4" at a time until you get a bullet. Shaft length makes the most difference in spine.
By the way, if bow is correctly setup (centershot and nock point and timing) any arrow should bullet hole at point blank range. What happens at langer distances can be due to many, many things! This is where experience pays off.
After you group tune, etc. you may notice that your bow no longer bullet holes. Why? Who cares! There are no paper tuning competitions as yet! :smile:


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## BDZ65 (May 20, 2004)

Bert2,
I agree 100%, been there done that with another brand of bow. I have done a lot of bare shaft paper tuning over the past several years and have learned an awful lot about my grip form and how to improve it. So far I have been able to make every one of my bows shoot bullet holes with bare shafts. I am not saying shooting bullet holes is the most forgiving tune, but I feel it is necessary to make broadheads impact with field points. 

This seems like a classic symptom, adjust the rest location left and right of centershot with no improvement. A word of caution though, before you head down the bare shaft paper tuning path make sure you have eliminated fletching contact, have cams synchronized and are reasonably close with arrow spine. Also if your form and form repeatability leave something to be desired you will probably drive yourself crazy, but in my experience bare shaft paper tuning does work! Finally, I have had good luck with modifying the pressure point of the bow grip itself, sure would be nice to have a grip which adjusts laterally with respect to the riser or a way to adjust the limbs with respect the riser.

Brian


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## Bert2 (Feb 16, 2003)

Brian --

Yes, I know I'm probably over doing it, but I get a nice warm & fuzzy when I get bullet holes with the bare shafts at 10+ yards, and the bare shafts group right in with the fletched ones at 20 yards.

But right now I am giving myself fits because there is something that I'm doing inconsistently but I can't figure out what it is!

John


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## zmcgill (Jan 15, 2005)

Just wondering, what type of rest are you using on this bow?


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## Robert Padilla (Jan 12, 2004)

Get your face and chin clear of the string and try again.


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## Deer Dave (Oct 3, 2003)

I also had the same problem .....one day I would shoot good , another day I would see my arrows kicking out to the left upon release. I struggled with this for a while...wanting a perfect setup... I gave up on the paper tuning. Then I got my Ultra -Tec "Lazer Tuned"..and then CONCENTRATED on my form and grip, and release...

Problem solved! Sometimes it may be more than 1 problem...a few small ones will drive you crazy.

For me it was a combo of things...Lazer Tuning ...Forcing myself to shoot with good form and mentally going thru these steps on each shot..

Stance...Grip...Anchor Point...Squeeze the Trigger...AND Follow Thru

One more tip I can add that means a LOT

If you are placing your string on the tip of your nose, at full draw...put it there EVER SO LIGHTLY...Barely touching your nose...no pressure...it will cause you to shoot left/right.

Hope this helps.

Dave


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## Ian (May 21, 2002)

Most likely you got fletching contact somewhere deflecting your arrow. Steal some of your girlfriend, wife, or moms lipstick and put some on the edge of each vane. Then shoot and see if there is lipstick anywhere else after.


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## bboswell (Jul 29, 2003)

Well mine turned out to be arrow spine. Despite what the Easton guide says my arrows were too stiff.

I got my Linejammer 350's to fly well, but it took 175g in tip weight to do it. This was not practical for 3D so I tried both GT 5575's and CXL 250's and was able to get great results with both very easily.


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## Jabwa (Dec 10, 2004)

Spine changes are most easily accomplished by adding or subtracting shaft length. This has a much greater affect on spine than changing point weight, and changes the arrow weight much less. I cannot understand why archers do not leave a couple extra inches on their new trial arrows in order to be able to cut them off to get the exact perfect spine.


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## montanaarchery (Mar 11, 2003)

*Hoyt tuning*

You need to look at the wheel lean on the upper cam. We tune hundreds of Hoyts a year. When we get a left or right tear that we can't get out with the rest it is usually in the upper wheel. If the cam is leaning to one side or the other you will need to twist the split yolk. You will need a press to do this.


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## x-cutter (May 20, 2003)

Your left tear is caused from a combination of things. As Montana said it could be the cam lean on the top or the bottom. Top is adjustable through the yoke but the bottom has to do with the limbs. I used to cut one limb slightly shorter than the other to straighten it but dont recommend that. What you have is a bow/form problem not an arrow problem. Sometimes you can get it to shoot a good tear with a weaker arrow but that really isn't solving the problem. The torque load transfer from the cable guard also has a big effect on the tear. Try these different things

1. Try a different release, sometimes different releases cause left to right string oscillation.

2. Make sure your not torqueing the bow and pushing in with left hand and pushing too hard with the right.

3.. What I had to do to get my Hoyt's left tear out is to bend the cable guard over towards the arrow at an angle where it would take the torque load off and then give you clearance at the same time going away as you shoot. With a carbon rod you have to file it down so it can bend over at full draw.
4. Try an arrow rest with a little more guidance. Bodoodle, star hunter.

The problem is coming from the power stroke not being delivered square to the back of the arrow.


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## bboswell (Jul 29, 2003)

First, cams are straight at rest and at draw. Second, not sure how you would twist the buss to straighten cam lean on a floating yoke system such as Hoyt's.

All I know is that according to all the arrow charts the LJ 350 was too stiff. While following Eaton's guidelines I reduced tip weight, and made several cuts in arrow length do to what they called a weak tear and made NO progress.

When I followed Martin's guidelines and added weight and increased arrow length due to stiff arrow tear the bow shoots great (with the rest centered) from point blank out to 50. This change has reduces 40 and 50 yard groups by over 50%.

Armed with the above evidence I switched to a softer spined arrow and my problems were solved.


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## x-cutter (May 20, 2003)

A softer spined arrow will make it shoot a bullet hole but it will not necessarily fix the problem. The bow is still delivering the power stroke the same. The softer arrows are just bending instead of the bow getting the power stroke in line.


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## coptor doctor (Aug 25, 2003)

You may want to check the specs on the Bow as well Hoyt screwed up on the Protec this year and the strings that came on some were to short giving you a way higher Brace height. I know a Guy in Ontario name of todd Orton and his 29" was drawing almost 30 with an inch more brace hieght than spec. You should still be able to Tune out your tear but something in addition you may want to look at


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## Jabwa (Dec 10, 2004)

bboswell:

Sounds like you are like me- left tear means stiff, right tear means weak. Write this down and don't forget! Cutting shaft longer or shorter affects spine the most with the least change in weight. When you find the lightest weight shaft you can get to shoot with 1/4" sticking out past the rest and point weight giving you about 7% FOC, AND with perfect spine, you have the fastest, most accurate 3D arrow you can shoot out of that bow at that draw length and peak weight! Chronograph it, and I'll bet almost any bow shooting that arrow at that speed will be CLOSE to a perfect tune!


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## x-cutter (May 20, 2003)

STring oscillation is the problem not necessarily too stiif or too weak of an arrow.


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## XSPLITTER (Apr 27, 2005)

Have someone else shoot it and see if they get the same results as you get before you drive yourself nuts changing things.


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## Jabwa (Dec 10, 2004)

X-cutter:

I don't know how you can say that without seeing his setup. Maybe his centershot and nock placement are perfect- in that case it's arrow spine. Aren't you assuming he has bad centershot? By the way, what is his centershot (center of rest to the riser)?


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## Jabwa (Dec 10, 2004)

Just ran his data on AA and it shows the CX 300's in the red. WAY OVERSPINED!


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## bboswell (Jul 29, 2003)

Why argue with success?

All charts show the arrows were over spined.

The bow is set up centerd perfectly.

The softer spined arrow shoots a good hole in paper.

The softer spined arrow shoots groups 1/2 the size of the others.

No matter what Eastons Guide says.....I was overspined and got a left tear!


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## Jabwa (Dec 10, 2004)

Everything is reversed for some shooters (this is in a footnote in the Easton tuning guide). To check centershot, use walk-back method. Shoot at a vertical line (set with plumb bob) from 20 yds and set sight to hit the string. Do the same thing at 40 yds using your 20 yd pin (this is to eliminate any leveling problem with the sight). If you hit to the right, move centershot to the left; if you hit to the left, move centershot to the right. Now shoot through paper. If you now get a left or right tear, it is, most definitely, arrow spine! Proper tuning is a long, hard process. Makes you wonder why people buy a new bow every year, doesn't it? :teeth:


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## bboswell (Jul 29, 2003)

*Jabwa*

Thanks for your insight on this issue.

I must have missed the foot note in Easton.

All that you mention in the last post has been done and results are great, now that I switched arrows!


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## x-cutter (May 20, 2003)

JWABA
It comes from 23 yrs of tuning and working on bows. If you had a 32" draw you would understand more where the left tear is coming from and know more about what was happening. Just changing the spine of the arrow will not fix the problem that is most likely a form issue or bow/rest issue. It is definitely caused by left and right string travel caused by torque. The line tuning method will get you the same results as paper tuning but wont give you the feedback that the paper will. I have several shooters including my wife that are shooting ultra-stiff setups with awsome results. The torque is caused a lot by alignment and how the shooter gets into the shot. Also some arrow rests and bows are the problem.


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## Jabwa (Dec 10, 2004)

X-cutter:

Read his last post.


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