# Holding dot in X ring



## Mahly (Dec 18, 2002)

Try a ring and find out.


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## Wenty (Jan 6, 2012)

Mahly said:


> Try a ring and find out.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


Yes.

I battled not being able to see the X for too long. I could shoot 3d fine. Live animals...fine. But a target face always had me dropping out so that I could see it. Then I started to come up on the target a pass by shoot. Did it well...but wrong answer.

I switched to a ring... bingo...I could see the X and held steady. No more dropping out or passing by. That ring might be the biggest positive I've adopted in target shooting. I couldn't go back to a pin or dot.


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## justok (Nov 25, 2016)

Wenty said:


> Yes.
> 
> I battled not being able to see the X for too long. I could shoot 3d fine. Live animals...fine. But a target face always had me dropping out so that I could see it. Then I started to come up on the target a pass by shoot. Did it well...but wrong answer.
> 
> I switched to a ring... bingo...I could see the X and held steady. No more dropping out or passing by. That ring might be the biggest positive I've adopted in target shooting. I couldn't go back to a pin or dot.



ill bet you do :shade:


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## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

I like the ring idea and it is such a simple thing to do, to me you just need to cover your bases and find the couple issues in your shot that could be causing the problem. 

Here is one of them. PAUSING

If you are trying to be perfect with your hold and you start the shot and during the shot you see the shot sitting low or left or somewhere where you decide to pause the shot for a moment until it can be fixed this is a time when you will let off on the back wall and the pin will go out the bottom and fire.


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## Lazarus (Sep 19, 2005)

Padgett said:


> Here is one of them. PAUSING
> 
> If you are trying to be perfect with your hold and you start the shot and during the shot you see the shot sitting low or left or somewhere where you decide to pause the shot for a moment until it can be fixed this is a time when you will let off on the back wall and the pin will go out the bottom and fire.


Very good advice above. No voodoo. 

I've been on this bandwagon for years, mainly because there are people out there that (maybe incorrectly) sell voodoo about this topic to the masses. Most people pick up a bow that weighs several pounds and think (without much training) they should be able to hold the aiming device at x ring height level and steady without any problem. If you think that is reality I would just challenge you take an empty gallon milk jug, fill it up with water, hold it out toward the target, then observe what happens. I doubt you'll hold it there for over a couple of seconds without it starting to sink. It's nothing more than common sense. It's (often) not a firing anxiety or an alignment issue.

Along with the advice Padgett has given you, and the "ring" advice, I'd probably suggest actually training the muscles (on the front half) that actually hold the mass of the bow up. Too simple, I know, right? Padgett covered the back half I believe.


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## TAZMAN (Dec 12, 2013)

I have been seeing this in my form also. Will try some of these tips without going to any voodoo.


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## Unk Bond (Aug 1, 2004)

Hello
U might change the tiller on one set of libs to bring you up. [ Later


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

Circles do work, but you have understand what's going on. I've used dots that cover up the X ring and float within the bull's eye, circles, circles with pins and circles with dots.


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## harley (May 20, 2006)

Is there a certain diameter circle that's best for 18m/20yds?


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## harley (May 20, 2006)

Lazarus said:


> Very good advice above. No voodoo.
> 
> I've been on this bandwagon for years, mainly because there are people out there that (maybe incorrectly) sell voodoo about this topic to the masses. Most people pick up a bow that weighs several pounds and think (without much training) they should be able to hold the aiming device at x ring height level and steady without any problem. If you think that is reality I would just challenge you take an empty gallon milk jug, fill it up with water, hold it out toward the target, then observe what happens. I doubt you'll hold it there for over a couple of seconds without it starting to sink. It's nothing more than common sense. It's (often) not a firing anxiety or an alignment issue.
> 
> Along with the advice Padgett has given you, and the "ring" advice, I'd probably suggest actually training the muscles (on the front half) that actually hold the mass of the bow up. Too simple, I know, right? Padgett covered the back half I believe.


I weight really isn't a problem. My total weight is right around 8.5lbs. After 45 years of archery and 25 yrs of spot and 3D the muscles are developed. I say this because when my dot drops to to the bottom of the 9 ring it stays there or floats back and forth trying to cover the X ring.


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## Rick! (Aug 10, 2008)

Not really. I 've shot a ring for three years and tried out a big dot for the last couple months. I threw the lens with the ring back on and now it's way too big. There are three different sets of rings/dot decals u can buy and try out to see what works for u.


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

Archery Specialty's dots, rings, come in 3 colors per pack (mine in pic above). The circles are all in one and you peel circles off you don't want. Gunstar has two sets of circles and dots, but the Chubby circles are too thick to my liking. Precision is another maker.


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## V3505 (Jan 31, 2013)

You might also try something a lot easier.... use a dot that completely covers the white on a 5 spot/yellow on a vegas target. All you have to do is eclipse the spot with your dot and execute a good shot. your eye naturally will center two circles better than your brain can aim. I shoot BHFS, but this should work with a lens too.







physically aiming.


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## aread (Dec 25, 2009)

Here is a good video from GRIV that describes pausing that Padget mentioned above:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1t0wTr6nZ-A&t=2s

A good drill to help this is the draw & hold drill. Come to full draw, don't worry about aiming, focus on keeping your form solid, then when your for begins to break down, let down.

Allen


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## Mtelkhunter 1 (Jul 19, 2016)

Play with your cam timing, or tiller your limbs


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## hoosierredneck (May 10, 2010)

If dropping low and i wanted to try tiller adjustment, do you drop or increase a certain limb


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## duc (Jul 18, 2009)

Circles work. Do you know why? Make a circle with your finger and look at something in the distance. Your brain AUTOMATICALLY centres what you are looking at. We do this without thinking. It's a wonderfully instinctive thing. You will be stunned with how accurate you can shoot with a circle or even nothing except the scope ring. As soon as you have a dot that you have to hold steady it all goes pear-shaped. And because of this most then try to control their dot AND this is where all or most of the associated "aiming" problems occur. Then people start look in all the wrong places, stabilisers, balance, form etc. when most, if not all of their issues are sight the picture.


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## Bobmuley (Jan 14, 2004)

I think one can be trained to "aim" with whatever reticle, or lack thereof, that exists. All we're doing is building a sight picture. If you know how you want the sight picture to look...build it. At that point its not even aiming and takes a lot of the conscious pressure away from trying to hold a little aiming reticle on a small point and stressing about a perfect aim. 

I really think its how some people are okay with holding a pin below the ten like a pistol shooter would, or others use dots so small that they practically disappear on target. there's only three things to line up; target, peep, and sight. Peeps and targets are all pretty much the same...which leaves the sightX/reticle as the biggest variable between archers. Why do some like one thing more than the other? I think that it has to do with the mental focus and personality of the individual. Some focus on the target and don't worry about the sight...it will follow. Some focus on the dot/circle/housing and put it over center on the target. Why would any one part of the three aspects be more important than the others? I think you have to have all three elements lined up with equal levels of conscious/subconscious effort (based on the individuals personality). 

Some like big power to try to be more precise, others like low power to decrease perceived movement. Same with big dots versus little dots, circles, dual-visions, no reticles, crosshairs, little itty bitty fiber pits to big honkin' ones. Why? 

Quit aiming and just use the sight picture you imagine beforehand regardless of the reticle.


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## hold_the_line (Sep 7, 2016)

Bobmuley said:


> ...Quit aiming and just use the sight picture you imagine beforehand regardless of the reticle.


Totally agree with this. I started thinking I really needed a circle and about the same time actually went on a reticle magnification journey from 3 to 5 to 6 to 8. I found that as I went higher, I started micro focussing too much and add a circle to that and it was data overload. It wasn't that more precision detail wasn't valuable, it was just that I gave up a lot of my sight picture to do it. Dropping back down to 5 and no clarifier gave me my sight picture focus again.


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## xavier102772 (Sep 2, 2010)

I struggled for years and tried pretty much everything trying to fix my dropping low/holding low issues. I messed around with stabs, with peep height, with tiller, with anchor point, with rest height, bow hand pressure, anchor height, back tension pressures, and on and on. After watching one of John Dudley's videos about a month back I discovered that the real reason I was always fighting the dropping low/holding low issue was due to a collapsing bow shoulder. It didn't seem like my shoulder was collapsing, but it was. Just that little bit. That ever so slight and slow collapse as the shot went on. It was almost imperceptible, but it was there and just enough that it would always keep the dot just under the X. I was always fighting it. John said in the video that I watched that if he didn't concentrate on his bow shoulder, or didn't spend enough time strengthening and conditioning his bow muscles and bow form that his shot would break down first in the bow shoulder. Namely, the bow shoulder would begin to collapse and when it does, even a little creep, was enough to really throw off his shot. It's not enough just to keep the shoulder down, but you have to keep it down and not moving backward at all or even better to keep dynamic tension in it toward the target.

Since I learned of my collapsing bow shoulder I have been concentrating on keeping my shoulder from collapsing and maintaining dynamic motion into the target through the shot. My shooting has gone to a whole new level now. My shots are much more consistent and the whole feel of my shot has changed for the better. My shot is now much more fluid and smooth. I now have the dynamic shot that I have heard so much about but have never been able to achieve, until now.


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## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

I am primarily a asa 3d guy so I shoot low back 12s and I can not be freaking missing out the bottom, in the beginning of my 3d asa career I had major problems with this and it turned out to be a variety of little issues like the one I mentioned earlier. I can't remember all of them right now but here is one of them.

I can remember shooting one day and watching my peep slightly raising as I shot my shots and I was missing out the bottom. As I executed the peep just wanted to move up towards the sight pin. I was perfectly lined up with the scope ring as the shot began and sometimes the peep would make the sight pin vanish. 

Once I saw this issue I worked and fought with my peep to stay put but it just wanted to raise no matter how hard I tried. Finally I realized that it was my anchor that was going up my face as I pulled into the wall. In the end I moved my anchor up a little to a more comfortable location and I moved my peep to fit that anchor and as I execute my peep stays put.


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## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

I mentioned Pausing earlier and to me that is a huge mistake that so many people allow, the key with that one is learning to start your execution and it just runs and there is no change. You become a supervisor of the shot and if you see something you don't like you let down but you do not pause the execution or change it, it takes hours and hours of training to learn how to execute without pausing or changing. 

When I mention changing I am talking about Adding pressure mainly, there are two things that we deal with all the time. First is something is wrong and we decide to pause and wait for the pin to be perfect and then start again. Second is changing, Changing is when you see the pin perfectly floating on the spot you want to hit and the release isn't firing so you make the decision to add some pressure or rotation to the release to help it fire. Both of these issues pausing and changing are directly related to what your pin is doing and that is a bad thing. Your job is to supervise what you are seeing and feeling, if it looks good and feels good you let it continue and if it doesn't you let down. Adding or subtracting only causes issues.

Pausing causes straight out the bottom misses for me and when I add pressure I get a different kind of miss. I am left handed and and if I add pressure to make the release fire late in the shot the bow will move down and to the right like a slow river barge that you couldn't stop even if you wanted to.


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## redman (Feb 22, 2003)

Take the lens out of scope and just center target in center of scope try this for a week . Ring works great only thing do not put in a small ring big ring worked best for me .


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## PowerHouseRed (Mar 13, 2017)

Does Axcel make that pin with the big circle on it? Or is it another brand? thanks



V3505 said:


> You might also try something a lot easier.... use a dot that completely covers the white on a 5 spot/yellow on a vegas target. All you have to do is eclipse the spot with your dot and execute a good shot. your eye naturally will center two circles better than your brain can aim. I shoot BHFS, but this should work with a lens too.
> 
> View attachment 5181761
> physically aiming.


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## V3505 (Jan 31, 2013)

PowerHouseRed said:


> Does Axcel make that pin with the big circle on it? Or is it another brand? thanks


Sorry for the delayed response, I sent you a PM


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## EPLC (May 21, 2002)

V3505 said:


> Sorry for the delayed response, I sent you a PM


How about sharing it with all of us.


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