# x-factor cracking??



## Huntmaster (Jan 30, 2003)

I've heard of a riser cracking, but I thought it was an older Hoyt or something cracking where the clicker plate cutout was. 

Never heard of the X-Factor doing that.


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## gig'em 99 (Feb 1, 2008)

I have been shooting an x-factor for about a year now, and it's shooting just as good now as it did the day I set it up. No cracks, and I haven't heard of them cracking either. Now I will say that you have to know a little about set screws, and a little about threading to properly take care of the bow, and not strip anything out. So the bow may not be suited to the careless. As long as you have some mechanical common sense, the x-factor should serve you very well. I also know several other archers who've been shooting the x-factor much longer than I, and at an elite level. And not only do they love it, they're the ones who recommended it to me. As far as I'm concerned it was a great recommendation, and I'd recommend the x-factor to almost anyone.


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## Dave T (Mar 24, 2004)

That post and claim was from a Hoyt engineer. I don't suppose there was any brand loyalty involved in his claim...do you?

Dave


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## Jason22 (Aug 16, 2008)

Dave T said:


> That post and claim was from a Hoyt engineer. I don't suppose there was any brand loyalty involved in his claim...do you?
> Dave


It's amazing how quickly a rumor can be spread. Anyone have a link?


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## Dave T (Mar 24, 2004)

It isn't a rumor, rather a post on the ArcheryForum (AUS) by Gt.

Dave


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## Brandeis_Archer (Dec 20, 2006)

http://archery-forum.com/showthread.php?t=23314&highlight=x-factor+cracking&page=2
Post #36



> Other than the inadequately sized limb bolts on that riser there should not be a problem- it's a copy of Hoyt geometry, after all.
> 
> When purchasing a used X factor, check for cracking on the back of the riser from under the logo around the back to the clicker plate recess. It is an extremely common problem considering how few of these there are in general use.


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## jmvargas (Oct 21, 2004)

dave t..ur absolutely right about the credibility of this guy when it comes to non-hoyt products...am not surprised he no longer posts regularly here....his loss...our gain!!


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## jmvargas (Oct 21, 2004)

in the same thread in AF, he now claims to have personally seen 5 risers with this problem from 4 archers and photos of many more...including 2 risers from jennifer nichols.....wow!!.....if it's true first time i ever heard of it...or about any x-factor for that matter...........


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## Recurve Artemis (Mar 6, 2008)

If 2 of Jennifer Nichols' X-factor risers have cracked, I don't think she would've shot another one at the Olympics.


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## Not Sure (May 25, 2007)

Recurve Artemis said:


> If 2 of Jennifer Nichols' X-factor risers have cracked, I don't think she would've shot another one at the Olympics.


Might she have been using a custom made X-factor? I think our men's team members that shot Mathews bows were all using a custom machined riser that isn't available to the public.

I don't mean to hijack but when I went to the PSE site to verify that she's a PSE pro I saw a picture of her shooting some kind of bow unknown to me (and I'm no expert riser spotter!). I assume it's a PSE but I wouldn't say it's an X-factor: http://www.pse-archery.com/2008_olympic_trials.php


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## Paul Williams (Jun 18, 2006)

*cracked riser*

yes, it did happen to my x-factor,

here's a photo of it.









i first noticed something wrong when i was constantly having to retune from my bow getting weaker and weaker. then "POW" it cracked, in fact the crack broke my loesch grip. not sure how that happened.

i contacted Dave Kronegold at PSE and he replaced my riser immediately. could not have asked for a better person to deal with or warranty service.

later that same year, while at US National Target Championships in Colorado Springs, a fellow Senior Mens Recurve archer had this same crack happen to him on the first day of official practice. i sold him my backuup riser x-factor and he was able to complete the competition just fine. when i saw him later that year, he said that Dave Kronegold handled his riser just as well as he had handled my riser and that he was just as pleased with PSE as I.

so, who knows why, maybe just a bad batch of extruded aluminum that a few of those risers were made from. i have heard stories but only a few and those two risers are the only ones that i have personally seen cracked.

this i can tell you, PSE is a great company and will definately stand behind there products. by the way, my cracked riser was past the warranty period and they took care of it pronto. i very much appreciated there efforts on my behalf. sometimes you never know how good a company is until you have an issue that needs there attention. and PSE is really great in that area.

cheers,
Paul Williams


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## engtee (Oct 2, 2003)

Not Sure,
I was at the third leg of the trials and she appeared to be using a standard X-factor, with custom anodization. In Beijing, as well.


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## spangler (Feb 2, 2007)

jmvargas said:


> in the same thread in AF, he now claims to have personally seen 5 risers with this problem from 4 archers and photos of many more...including 2 risers from jennifer nichols.....wow!!.....if it's true first time i ever heard of it...or about any x-factor for that matter...........


Now I don't know gt personally, and his manner can at times be a little brusque, but I'm doubtful he would post a lie. He wasn't giving a guess or opinion, but he said that he had actually seen them. To call that into question is to call him a liar.

I wouldn't have a problem with calling it into question if he was somebody who didn't have a clue, or a known liar, but he knows archery and archery engineering and has a reputation in the industry. While I'm sure he would like for someone to buy Hoyt bows, he is going to eat just fine if someone buys a used X-Factor instead of a Hoyt. I doubt he would risk his reputation just to try and talk someone into a Hoyt vs. non-Hoyt product.

As I said, I don't know gt, but I don't think you should bash him or call him a liar on a board he doesn't even post on.

-Andrew


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## rgauvin (Feb 20, 2007)

Paul Williams said:


> yes, it did happen to my x-factor,
> 
> here's a photo of it.
> 
> ...


wow, I never really thought this could happen. sure teh X-Factor doesn't have alot of spare metal and I am sure the odds of it happening are small, but I am still going to mention it to the X-Factor shooters I know just so they are aware in case they start to exhibit the bow getting weaker and weaker symptom.

On the plus side I am glad PSE did the right thing and replaced the riser since the issue was clearly a design/manufacturing issue and not a user issue.


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## Seattlepop (Dec 8, 2003)

jmvargas said:


> dave t..ur absolutely right about the credibility of this guy when it comes to non-hoyt products...am not surprised he no longer posts regularly here....his loss...our gain!!



C'mon guys, the only credibility you challenge with these kinds of posts is your own.


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## tecshooter05 (Mar 7, 2005)

Paul Williams said:


> yes, it did happen to my x-factor,
> 
> here's a photo of it.
> 
> ...


i think someone just got a big piece of humble pie


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## gig'em 99 (Feb 1, 2008)

*x-factor cracking*

Just so everyone is clear... here's gt's quote

"Other than the inadequately sized limb bolts on that riser there should not be a problem- it's a copy of Hoyt geometry, after all.

When purchasing a used X factor, check for cracking on the back of the riser from under the logo around the back to the clicker plate recess. It is an extremely common problem considering how few of these there are in general use. "

Gt makes a statement about the x-factor limb bolts...Any one have any examples as to them being inadequately sized?? But that is totally irrelevalant to the discussion. Then he states that cracking is an "extremely common problem". Now I realize there aren't 10,000 x-factors in use, but other than the two referenced in this thread...extremely common is a misrepresentation...even if there were two more with that problem that haven't been specifically referenced, making it what, 4?

The statement shows bias, which there's nothing wrong with as long as we know where he's coming from. If he works for Hoyt, it puts it in perspective and is important when evaluating a blanket claim like that. Honestly, I would think corporate rep's would not be so careless as to make claims in writing about their competitors.

If we want to get into an equipment war on this thread, we all know that hoyt historically has had limb problems, and I've heard about all different kinds of hoyt risers blowing up. But that isn't the point. All products can be subjected to poor quality from time to time. The important thing is how the company handles the warranty claims when those problems occurs. Both PSE and Hoyt are very reputable when it comes to that type of issue.

We should all try to avoid over reacting to anecdotal claims, and go back to how tightly nit this community really is. If there was a rampant problem, we'd all already know about it.


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## Dave T (Mar 24, 2004)

gig'em 99 said:


> Gt makes a statement about the x-factor limb bolts...Any one have any examples as to them being inadequately sized?? But that is totally irrelevalant to the discussion. Then he states that cracking is an "extremely common problem". Now I realize there aren't 10,000 x-factors in use, but other than the two referenced in this thread...extremely common is a misrepresentation...even if there were two more with that problem that haven't been specifically referenced, making it what, 4?
> 
> The statement shows bias, which there's nothing wrong with as long as we know where he's coming from. If he works for Hoyt, it puts it in perspective and is important when evaluating a blanket claim like that. Honestly, I would think corporate rep's would not be so careless as to make claims in writing about their competitors.


No humble pie here. The above comments are exactly the point I was trying to make. Thanks for the back-up, gig. (smile)

Dave


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## TER (Jul 5, 2003)

spangler said:


> Now I don't know gt personally, and his manner can at times be a little brusque, but I'm doubtful he would post a lie. He wasn't giving a guess or opinion, but he said that he had actually seen them. To call that into question is to call him a liar.
> 
> I wouldn't have a problem with calling it into question if he was somebody who didn't have a clue, or a known liar, but he knows archery and archery engineering and has a reputation in the industry. While I'm sure he would like for someone to buy Hoyt bows, he is going to eat just fine if someone buys a used X-Factor instead of a Hoyt. I doubt he would risk his reputation just to try and talk someone into a Hoyt vs. non-Hoyt product.
> 
> ...


Quoted For Truth! The fact that GT works for Hoyt is not proof, much less evidence, he would say anything misleading or dishonest about archery equipment. I don't know him either, but his reputation is immaculate. Spangler has expressed the truth perfectly, please reread his post using some reading comprehension. Baseless accusations might be one of the reasons why GT doesn't post here anymore.


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## Dave T (Mar 24, 2004)

TER, perhaps you are the one who needs reading comprehension. Spangler is the first one to use the word "lie". Two of the first three posts were from X-Facotor owners who hadn't experienced any cracking and neither of them had heard of any. 

I have read many of Gt's post on both Sagittarius and ArcheryForum and he routinely puts down any other make than Hoyt. Maybe he doesn't post here anymore because people got tired of his put downs and condescending treatment of us, the unwashed out here who dirty up his world.

Dave


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## gig'em 99 (Feb 1, 2008)

*X-factor cracking*



TER said:


> Quoted For Truth! The fact that GT works for Hoyt is not proof, much less evidence, he would say anything misleading or dishonest about archery equipment. I don't know him either, but his reputation is immaculate. Spangler has expressed the truth perfectly, please reread his post using some reading comprehension. Baseless accusations might be one of the reasons why GT doesn't post here anymore.


Ok, wow. Now I'm getting testy. First of all - No one called George a liar. No one said George hadn't seen x-factor's that cracked. What we did imply is that he exaggerated the problem, calling it "extremely common"...his words not mine. His "brusque" or harsh style is probably the reason that he no longer posts on AT, because it doesn't go over well at all.

For those of you who do not shoot x-factors, feel free to provide evidence of the numerous x-factor's that have cracked. Better yet, how about all you x-factor shooters provide us with these numerous cracked risers. Then I'll call PSE and find out how many were manufactured and we'll work up some percentages. Then we'll have some facts and not a bunch of opinions, or heresy. I don't care who you work for, if you don't work for PSE, then you have no idea about the actual prevalence of this problem. I shoot one. I know several people who shoot them, and own more than one, and the only one I've ever seen cracked is on this thread. The only ones that I've ever heard of cracking are referenced in this thread. With the exception of the picture, all anecdotal evidence at best. Show me the "extremely common" nature of this problem, and I'll gladly "eat crow". 

The point here, is that it was called a COMMON problem. As I said before, if it was a common problem, we (being the archery community in general, and certainly x-factor owners) would already know about it. I certainly don't need a lesson in reading comprehension.


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## TER (Jul 5, 2003)

Dave T said:


> TER, perhaps you are the one who needs reading comprehension. Spangler is the first one to use the word "lie". Two of the first three posts were from X-Facotor owners who hadn't experienced any cracking and neither of them had heard of any.
> 
> I have read many of Gt's post on both Sagittarius and ArcheryForum and he routinely puts down any other make than Hoyt. Maybe he doesn't post here anymore because people got tired of his put downs and condescending treatment of us, the unwashed out here who dirty up his world.
> 
> Dave





Dave T said:


> That post and claim was from a Hoyt engineer. I don't suppose there was any brand loyalty involved in his claim...do you?
> 
> Dave





jmvargas said:


> dave t..ur absolutely right about the credibility of this guy when it comes to non-hoyt products...am not surprised he no longer posts regularly here....his loss...our gain!!


These posts do not sound like accusations of dishonesty to you? Alrighty then.


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## TER (Jul 5, 2003)

gig'em 99 said:


> His "brusque" or harsh style is probably the reason that he no longer posts on AT, because it doesn't go over well at all.


I was here when GT was posting here. You've been here for 6 months, so you can't have any idea why GT doesn't post here anymore. You're just guessing.


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## jmvargas (Oct 21, 2004)

ok guys...as the original poster i was looking for some collaboration on the post of gt in archery-forum as i have never heard any case of the "common problem" he mentioned....as i may have mentioned i have had 5 x-factors pass thru my hands over the past 4 years and shoot at least 200 arrows a week with them(you do the math) and have never even remotely encountered such a problem.....the only reason i turn over my x-factors is because i want to have another color......i still have 3 of them and one is up for sale only because i am bored with the color...i think i will be keeping my red and black x-factors for a long time .......the few actual cases mentioned(which have been excellently dealt with by PSE btw) do not really seem to make it as common as gt would want an uninformed reader to think.....


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## gig'em 99 (Feb 1, 2008)

*x-factor cracking*

Ter, you're missing the point of this entire discussion. My statements clearly indicate/imply that I am making an assumption. I'm not the one that originally said his writing is "brusque". I quoted Spangler, and I believe you said he was "speaking the truth".

This discussion is about the x-factor, and what every x-factor owner reading this thread already knows. Cracking, is not "extremely common". That was a careless statement. Not a lie, just careless, and no matter his Hoyt credentials...still an opinion. Please stay on topic.


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## Serious Fun (May 12, 2003)

Paul Williams said:


> ...i contacted _*Dave Kronegold*_ at PSE and he replaced my riser immediately. *could not have asked for a better person to deal with or warranty service*...


Bold and Italic for emphasis. *True*


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## Seattlepop (Dec 8, 2003)

*I miss GT*

It gives me great pleasure to dig up this old GT quote: "Never have so many said so much about something they know so little".


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## jmvargas (Oct 21, 2004)

i know we should put this to rest but that quote also reminded me so much of gt when he speaks about products other than hoyt or easton........


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## Dave T (Mar 24, 2004)

Seattlepop said:


> It gives me great pleasure to dig up this old GT quote: "Never have so many said so much about something they know so little".


I used the word "condescending" and the above is a perfect example. How's that for reading comprehension, TER?

Dave


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## pencarrow (Oct 3, 2003)

Having read this thread, and other recent "dissertations"on this forum. I would suggest a moderator option transfer to a new forum category," He said She said I said You said " Eloquent writing" p--sing, contest":wink::wink:


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## Rick McKinney (Mar 4, 2008)

A few comments if I may….first of all Jenny Nichols had one riser crack. The other riser was Mandy’s; her sister’s. Both risers were about 5 years old, both had near 250,000 shots on them….yes, that’s a lot for anybody’s standard. They both were required to shoot at least 180 shots per day for most of the year. I just figured only 300 of the 365 days. These women train like athletes should. And yes, I know them both personally and have frequent talks with them. 

As far as gt making the typical comments he made on the other forum. That’s gt. He is well known for his bias opinion. Dave T, you are correct. It was nice of you to not mention his name, although it had to come out eventually. Andrew, “brusque” is a very nice term used compared to most who have been on his “bad” side. He doesn’t lie, just pushes the edge to get his point across, especially to disparage a competitor. …and I can assure you he is lurking…. 

And finally, about the riser. It’s a fine riser and chances are these risers generally will hold up under most situations. I own one and like it. I like David Kronengold and have a great deal of respect for the man. I also own a few Win&Win risers and limbs whom I am very close friends with Park, Kyung-Rae who owns the company. Both companies have good integrity and will make every effort to fix problems.


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## target1 (Jan 16, 2007)

It seems a lot of threads here belong on a fencing forum. They always turn to sword play.

Question: Is is even possible to dicuss any issue, without it turning to a match of wits. It seems like we have alot of insecure folks on here, that require getting the best of others.

Do X-factors crack often...? That is the question...So discuss away....thanks


please continue


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## rgauvin (Feb 20, 2007)

target1 said:


> It seems a lot of threads here belong on a fencing forum. They always turn to sword play.
> 
> Question: Is is even possible to dicuss any issue, without it turning to a match of wits. It seems like we have alot of insecure folks on here, that require getting the best of others.
> 
> ...


define "often". It is a vague word which different people interpret differently. I may consider often to be more often then 30% while you may define it as more then 50%. it is a word that encourages arguments and disagreements. (as evident by this thread)


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## ewan (Aug 28, 2007)

I own an X-Factor, bought in 2005; it's still in one piece. As I own the only one in the Republic of Ireland (that I was aware of) I can't really speak for reliability issues. I've had no issues with it, and hadn't heard of any issues with the riser. I suspect the cracking issue is not of the same magnitude as the issues with, for instance, the MK1 Avalon?


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## hockeyref (Jun 2, 2006)

*Definition of often?*

For our purposes:
"Often" should probably be a ratio of the total number of units produced to the total known failures.... 

~But ~ and this is a really big but ~ 

That ratio also needs to be shaded by the number of cycles (arrows) the failed unit(s) endured and how it compares to the rest that did not fail....

I mean really, if the riser cracked after a A QUARTER MILLION CYCLES  ......... How many of us shoot 200 arrows a day - five days a week - for five years? For us mere mortals it may take upwards of 20 YEARS to get to that cycle count! 60 arrows a day, 4 days a week will take you just over 20 years to get there.....

Other factors to consider.... draw weight, draw length, string material, GPP of the arrow, Limb type - Carbon\ceramic, or wood core? was it ever dry fired? More than once? etc........


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## Seattlepop (Dec 8, 2003)

target1 said:


> It seems a lot of threads here belong on a fencing forum. They always turn to sword play.
> 
> Question: Is is even possible to dicuss any issue, without it turning to a match of wits. It seems like we have alot of insecure folks on here, that require getting the best of others.
> 
> ...



Here's my summary:


1. GT reported accurately
2. Mr. Williams gave us a visual aid 
3. It does appear, in fact, to be "common" among very high-end users
4. Most of us need not worry about it
5. PSE will fix any problems without hesitation
6. Its a personality thing


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## hockeyref (Jun 2, 2006)

Anyone that no longer trusts their X-factor.... I'm sure that there are a few of us that will take them off your hands for the cost of shiping....


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## dkard (Sep 25, 2004)

*scared*

Hell, I'd pay shipping plus the rate for scrap AL, about a $1 a pound.


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## jmvargas (Oct 21, 2004)

am still looking for a platinum one.....


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## hockeyref (Jun 2, 2006)

I'm not picky... any color will work for me..... Iwould even take a lefty for my daughters to grow into.


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