# To LENS or Not To LENS! That is the question...



## rattlinman (Dec 30, 2004)

Brief History:

Started competitive archery with a scope and slider (3x) in the early 90's, decided to give Bowhunter class setup a try (on a challenge) for a few years and went to multi-pin, no scope setup , then went back to a scope/slider combo the last couple of years. Been fighting my aging eyes for the last couple of years and trying to find a happy lens power/clarifier/ pin size combination that gives me a clear picture.

Now I'm starting to ask myself - hey Self, should I go back and try no lens/small peep and just get a clear picture? Would it truly handicap me by dropping the magnification? Should I go back to a .10 pin? ( I went back to a .19 when I jumped to a 5x lens), or maybe just a 2x or 3x with no clarifier?

Advice, experiences, all accepted!!!!!


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## RCR_III (Mar 19, 2011)

From what I've seen you'll find me in the minority in this group, but I shoot better without a lens. 

No matter what combination I have tried, I never could get comfortable with them. 

I think it depends on your eyesight too. I'm blessed with good eye sight and can see the target well enough to determine what I'm aiming at. 

My recommendation on the matter is to contact Chuck Cooley. He works in Feather Vision and you could probably tell him your glasses prescription, assuming you have one, and he could walk through some options. It'll matter on how far the peep to sight distance is as well and the size of the peep aperture and scope. 

http://www.chuckcooley.com


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

Feather Vision was sold to AAE sometime last year. Forget which, but one of the Cooleys was to remain. The one I emailed about a Feather Vision lens was called Phil (over Feather Vision or optical of AAE).


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## bigHUN (Feb 5, 2006)

I was using lenses for years and developed my style based on bringing the target closer. Finding that training on longer distances helps my progress the best.
6x is my common lens I was using but lately training myself for x8=1 diopter, I like to see my float over a 80 yarder 5 spot center. 
The beginning is a bit scary, noticing a bit of TP when I see the pin in the center ring want to jump out or freezes the form but *I want* to train for it. must train for it!!! in a same way as you would in example switch releases or any other part of equipment must train for unconscious.
Best lenses are blackeagle also the feathervision is not bad, shrewd makes decent lenses as well


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## FS560 (May 22, 2002)

I think Phil is Chucks father.


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## rattlinman (Dec 30, 2004)

RCR_III said:


> From what I've seen you'll find me in the minority in this group, but I shoot better without a lens.
> 
> No matter what combination I have tried, I never could get comfortable with them.
> 
> ...





bigHUN said:


> I was using lenses for years and developed my style based on bringing the target closer. Finding that training on longer distances helps my progress the best.
> 6x is my common lens I was using but lately training myself for x8=1 diopter, I like to see my float over a 80 yarder 5 spot center.
> The beginning is a bit scary, noticing a bit of TP when I see the pin in the center ring want to jump out or freezes the form but *I want* to train for it. must train for it!!! in a same way as you would in example switch releases or any other part of equipment must train for unconscious.
> Best lenses are blackeagle also the feathervision is not bad, shrewd makes decent lenses as well


I appreciate both of these comments, and I guess that's where I'm at right now, either continue to spend money and time trying to find the right combination of clarity or simply do away with a lens and just trust my knowledge of where to aim on the targets.

Another option I'm told is to have a contact made to clear up just my shooting eye. Anyone tried that?


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## rattlinman (Dec 30, 2004)

SonnyThomas said:


> Feather Vision was sold to AAE sometime last year. Forget which, but one of the Cooleys was to remain. The one I emailed about a Feather Vision lens was called Phil (over Feather Vision or optical of AAE).





FS560 said:


> I think Phil is Chucks father.


Thanks guys, I just don't know if a new lens is the answer. I have a 3, 4, and 5X lens right now. The 5 is a Zeiss made Shrewd lens and it's incredibly clear at some distances, but not at others.

At the age of 46, I'm new to the glasses world. I went to the optometrist and was told I have developed a stigmatism in my shooting eye. Can they build a lens to correct certain optic issues?


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## duc (Jul 18, 2009)

RCR_III said:


> From what I've seen you'll find me in the minority in this group, but I shoot better without a lens.
> 
> No matter what combination I have tried, I never could get comfortable with them.
> 
> ...


Damn it, I agree on something with you. It's remarkable how accurate you can be without a lens. I think to much magnification can mess with your head and SO many people can't or won't accept this. Shoot with the most relaxing sight picture you can get. Don't think for one second bigger is better.


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

FS560 said:


> I think Phil is Chucks father.


No. Last name eludes me, but for sure not his son.


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

rattlinman said:


> Thanks guys, I just don't know if a new lens is the answer. I have a 3, 4, and 5X lens right now. The 5 is a Zeiss made Shrewd lens and it's incredibly clear at some distances, but not at others.
> 
> With any lens I move the sight in and out to get the clearest picture. All my sight frames have 9" extension bars. Doesn't bother me a bit to have 2 to 4" hanging back as it's not hurting anything.
> Problem with using a stronger lens is you "want" the magnification and can't accept lesser power (human thing). 3X is probably ideal and 4X is what most want to use and still not need a clarifier. Like you I had a 6X that was great out to just a bit over 20 yards and past that I needed a clarifier.
> ...


Stigmatism? Slow eye? If "slow eye" there is no correction available I know of. I have "slow eye" and just a bit of time looking at the distance needed 
allows the eye to adjust.


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## Rick! (Aug 10, 2008)

rattlinman said:


> Brief History:
> 
> Now I'm starting to ask myself - hey Self, should I go back and try no lens/small peep and just get a clear picture?


What type of "clear" gives you the most comfortable sight picture? Clear pin and fuzzy target or clear target with a fuzzy pin? 
I can't get both ends of it anymore since my eyes started changing when I was 45 or so.

I shoot indoor and field with a 6X with a ring and a small peep with no clarifier with glasses removed - clear target, fuzzy ring. 
I started with a 2X, then a 4X and ended up with a 6X so I can see the X on a Vegas face. 
A fuzzy ring still "centers" and works well for me, even at the 5yd orange dot. 
I also shoot a .125 pin with no lens and a verifier (BHFS) with glasses removed - fuzzy target with just enough pin definition. 
Lastly, I shoot with contacts or my glasses with a .019 pin with no scope and a big peep for hunting - clear target with varying clearness of pin (I just deal with it). .010 pins disappear on me so I haven't used them for years.



> Would it truly handicap me by dropping the magnification? Should I go back to a .10 pin? ( I went back to a .19 when I jumped to a 5x lens), or maybe just a 2x or 3x with no clarifier?
> 
> Advice, experiences, all accepted!!!!!


I'm hoping you have already tried these combinations - only you can verify what your eyes are seeing.




> Another option I'm told is to have a contact made to clear up just my shooting eye. Anyone tried that?


I've tried this and it works somewhat. I like my left eye to not take over so I will leave that contact out. When hunting, I put both in so my depth perception is proper for me.

This is a gear question so it should be moved to that sub-forum.


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## rattlinman (Dec 30, 2004)

SonnyThomas said:


> Stigmatism? Slow eye? If "slow eye" there is no correction available I know of. I have "slow eye" and just a bit of time looking at the distance needed
> allows the eye to adjust.


That's a good question Sonny, I may need to go back and visit with the Optometrist to understand better. I don't think it's a slow eye as much as I've developed a distortion in that eye. Interestingly, he said that overworking and straining the eye by shooting so much over the years may have caused it to begin with, so I got that going for me.


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## rattlinman (Dec 30, 2004)

Rick! said:


> What type of "clear" gives you the most comfortable sight picture? Clear pin and fuzzy target or clear target with a fuzzy pin?
> I can't get both ends of it anymore since my eyes started changing when I was 45 or so.
> 
> I shoot indoor and field with a 6X with a ring and a small peep with no clarifier with glasses removed - clear target, fuzzy ring.
> ...


Currently, I have a fuzzy picture with a semi-clear pin within 30 yards, then both start to fuzz at around 35, with a slightly blurry target at 40 +. I may look into the contact idea for tournament use only.

And if it needs to be moved, then go for it. I figured Intermediate would be a good place to ask advice from competitive archers. Didn't even know a sub-forum for equipment only existed.


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

rattle, one of my eyes shows stigmatism, oval iris or whatever. I guess I was one of the first that Optometrist found stigmatism was natural in some people. When found I was fitted with glasses for this and it liked to killed me. Yes sir, these glasses made me feel 10 feet tall and the damned ground right under my nose. Walls of room looked like they were caving in from the ceiling. I couldn't hardly walk and I was ducking at anything looking like it was going to fall on me. Two days of that was more than enough. Went to the eye doctor. His nurse was trying to tell me I had to get use to the glasses and I blew up. Optometrist did more checks and tests and found I could see correctly with my eyes or with proper glasses. 

Now, I've got some weird eyes. Right off, I can see plastic lens. This is not unusual. So I have glass lens. Top left, straight glass. Top right, slight magnification. Bottom left, .175. Bottom right, .150. I use glasses to read, to set my sight frame and then take my glasses off to shoot....

My slow eye or whatever medical term for it, was found when I shot Trap. If looking up close everything at a distance was blurry for a bit. Fix, look out past the Trap house. Never goes away that I know and I've had it for a good 40 years. Really don't pay attention to it after this many years.


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## rattlinman (Dec 30, 2004)

I truly appreciate you sharing that story because I've been having the same dilemma since getting these d&*^&* glasses! I simply cannot wear them when walking or driving because your exact comments, so I only wear them at the office ( like right now) or when reading. I complained and was told that it would take awhile to get used to them as well. Sounds like I should have called BS too!


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

Plain and simple, glasses are to correct vision, not cause other issues and the Optometrist said much the same.


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## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

At the georgia asa I bought a 4x lens from brian at his booth and he also gave me a 6x to try out and give back to him at london, I actually spend two full days of shooting sessions and I tested every stinking combination that was acceptable.

4x brians lens with: 5 piece aperature kit, #1 #2 clarifier

4x feather vision verde lens with: 5 piece aperature kit, #1 #2 clarifier

6x brians lens with: 5 piece aperture kit and #1 #2 #3 clarifier

No lens with: 5 Piece aperture kit and #1 #2 clarifier

The beauty of this kind of testing is that within minutes you can eliminate many of the combinations because they just suck really bad and you will have a few combos that end up looking pretty good and I write them down and try and come up with the three best ones, By the end of shooting session number 1 I had the three that looked the best to me and then the next day I could switch back and forth between them during my 2 hour shooting session and come up with the best one, I shot at 50 and 20 yds to see the two extreme distances that I shoot all the time. 

In the end the two best ones were no lens and a 3/32 aperture and the 3/32 aperture and the 4x lens, the third choice was the 6x lens with the number 2 clarifier. The 6x lens gave me the best look at the target where I could see the scoring rings at longer distances but it made my pin start trying to vanish and it was kind of fuzzy and I was seeing two pins and couldn't tell the difference between them. 

I was beyond surprised that the no lens with just a aperture could be so good, it sucks because you can't see the details especially at 50 yards but what is sweet is that you don't have a third look at the target. that is one of my biggest issues with shooting competitive 3d especially at the national level is aiming at the stinking 12 ring that you can't really see. You have the bino's look and the naked eye look and then you have the Looking through the peep and lens look, so with the no lens method you only have two different looks to deal with which makes aiming very very stress free. 

In the end I went with the 4x brians lens with 3/32 aperture, I had been using the 1/16 aperture but after testing for a couple days I couldn't see a accuracy difference and the amount of light coming through just made it look nicer.


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## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

Hey, this weekend at the asa I did use the no lens for a while. it was a double edge sword and in the end I have mixed feelings about the decision to take my lens out but I did learn some things, first off my bow hits 3 inches to the right without the lens and that is 13 clicks on my sight. Secondly the bow shoots the exact same sight tape setting and the only difference is the windage.

I did not plan on taking it out but at 7 am in the morning when I was walking to the range I stopped at the 3d practice range and on the first shot the back glare was really bad and the dark tunnel effect was horrible so seeing the targets with a lens was a chore. So I popped it out and did the 13 clicks and headed over to my stake. I shot 3 twelves within the first 5 targets and I did have one 8 out the top but it was dead on left and right and I had just over judged a little. But then I had something happen that I have never had happen before, I shot three 5's in the middle of the day out the bottom. It isn't the first time I have shot 5's, it was the first time I only missed the yardage by 2 yards on each of them and I shot 5's. In fact two of them I actually thought that they were 12's when they hit the target, the arrows had kicked up a little and the fletching was on the bottom of the 12 ring so for 20 seconds I was happy and then I looked through the bino's and saw the disaster. Each time we got down there and my arrows were a 1/8 inch below the 8 line and directly below the 12 ring.

The last third of the course I shot with my lens and it felt so much better, of course it felt better because I always shoot with a lens. If I had it to do over I would have shot the first 5 targets without the lens because with the poor lighting we had it was a sweet advantage but the moment the light came out I wish I had just put my lens back in. Both of the guys in my group made comments that made me realize that no lens was a good thing early on because they struggled to see and aim and I was scoring better but as the day went on both of them gained momentum as the course changed. So I am going to put this into the lesson learned folder.


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## rattlinman (Dec 30, 2004)

Interesting Padgett, so do you feel like the absence of the lens was the issue that caused the low 5's, or the combination of the misjudged yardage AND no magnification to find the 12? 

My practice last night was no lens, 3/32 peep aperture, and 1 .10 pin. I shot good groups (not quite as tight at 40 as usual) and was pretty consistent at finding the dot and letting the pin hover over it. But finding the dot is something you don't have on a 3D target and what you experienced is exactly my concern this Saturday....thinking I'm aiming at the right spot when I'm actually not.

Because you are right, a 2" error at a 40 yard target can result in a 7 point loss.


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## chiefjason (Mar 22, 2016)

If your shooting eye is getting blurry and hard to focus, that's most likely "astigmatism". Me and both girls have it. Yes it's a hassle. Yes it's correctable. If you are newly diagnosed it may be too light to correct for though. I went 3 years diagnosed with a mild case that was uncorrectable. I was actually happy when it got a bit worse and passed into the correctable range. One option my DR always gave me the he could not correct it was getting a separate prescription for shooting and hunting. No correction but slightly higher prescription, it makes thing smaller and darker but also clearer. That's a conversation you might need to have with your Dr. Also, sometimes contacts can help because they are a static focal length where glasses can change as they move on your face. Contacts also give a fuller field of vision. Been wearing them for over 20 years. I've played this game a few times. I wear one regular contact and one to correct the vision and astigmatism.


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## rattlinman (Dec 30, 2004)

Sounds like I need to re-visit the Doc or find one that deals with sportsmen that shoot. Sounds like my issue may be easily corrected.

Thanks for all of the advice !!


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## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

I have thought about your question a lot since you asked, I have shot a 4x lens for at least 6 years at every single tournament and every practice session so it just feels right. When I took out the lens and shot without it there was a feeling of relief that I couldn't see the specifics of the target. It allowed me to settle into the target and have 100% confidence in the shot as the shot broke, the float was less of a issue and without being able to see the lines or markers it was more of a aiming feel thing where you just felt like you are aiming at the 12 ing but in all reality you have no idea. The moment I put the lens back in it was amazing how much I could see and how much more specific I could aim based on what I am seeing. 

When I aim at a target I take a mental polaroid picture of what my 4x up pin is going to look like when I come to full draw, the look of the 4x lens is between the naked eye look and the 8x binos look so I have to rely on tens of thousands of shots to take that mental picture so that it looks like it is supposed to through the 4x lens. 

I don't come to anchor and try and see the 12 ring and then move my pin over to the 12 ring, I come to anchor and I want to see things look exactly like I knew they would and then I execute the shot.

I had my chance, I mentioned earlier in this thread that I remember the two guys in my group talking about how bad the back glare was and how hard it was to pick a spot to aim and then about 6 targets into the day when I knew the conditions had improved I should have put it back in right then instead of waiting.


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

FS560 said:


> I think Phil is Chucks father.





SonnyThomas said:


> No. Last name eludes me, but for sure not his son.


Phil Porter.....


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## 1tiger (Jan 24, 2005)

I did some testing this weekend shooting mostly at 40 yards to figure this out for myself. I came to realize two things.
1. after multiple attempts with 4x 2x lens and clarifier and without clarifier I consistently shot better with out a lens.
2. I also shot better groups with down .19 then either a .10 down pins or any combination of an up pin.
this is just what my groups size showed,and what I believe for me the glare/rain/dirt/movement of shooting with even thought I could see the spot better,i think I just shoot more relaxed with less movement and the groups proved it to me. I will let you know how this end up as I shoot both 3d and 900 40/50/ 60 meter rounds.


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