# Hoyt Eclipse



## J.Smith (Jul 28, 2006)

Does anyone else here shoot a hoyt eclipse and if so I was wondering how loud your bow is. I just got mine and this is the first recurve I have shot so I have no idea what to expect, but it seems very loud to me. I have experimented with different brace hights and tiller adjustments within Hoyts recomended ranges, but nothing seems to quiet it down. 
One thing I think may be contributing to the noise is I bought a string that I think is too thick. 18 strands. At first I could hardly get my nock on there (at least it doesn't fall off though!!)...now it has kinda squeezed the serving and maybe the nocks have stretched a little, but they aren't as tight as they first were...I know that is crazy, but I am setting this up by myself and have absolutely zero experience, so I just guessed at the string size...I even ordered a 66 inch string for a 66 inch bow, but luckily the folks at lancaster switched it to the correct length when they sent it.
I also had some problems with my magnetic rest tearing up the vanes on my arrows, but now I am using a hoyt super rest and I think I have it very near to center shot, but my arrows were visibly fishtailing, so I adjusted the nocks so the cock feather points straight down instead of out to the side and they seem to be flying straighter...is that totally wrong or is it acceptable? I know that on a lot of compund bows the fletching is sometimes like this. Any suggestions or tips for a new archer would be greatly appreciated!! Thanks!


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## Paradoxical Cat (Apr 25, 2006)

Go to Easton's website and get their tuning guide. There are several problems here. The fishtailing may be a spine problem, depending on the direction. Also, the cock feather should be out, not down....it must be hitting the rest.

First..do you have t-square?

Second..have you set your nock point properly? Ie. Have you done any bareshaft tuning?

Third..did you put twists in the string?

Fourth..do you have the manual that came with the bow? I am guessing that the brace and tiller are off. You will need a T-square to figure that out.

Fifth..do you have a club anywhere near you? This is difficult to do via the board.

I'd like to help, but I need to know what you have done. There are several steps to tuning a bow. Get the Easton tuning guide from their website or look at Hoyt's manual. Write out exactly what you have done. If you do not have a T-square, get one. Tuning a recurve properly is very difficult without one.


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## J.Smith (Jul 28, 2006)

Hi Paradoxical Cat, thanks for trying to help. No clubs around here for recurve...plenty of shops and clubs but they are all dedicated to camoflauge compound bows and 3D archery. which is why I had to buy my bow online sight unseen and with no help other than a book and what I have gleened from folks here at AT.
Here's what I have:

Eclipse Riser RH=25" 
Challenger Craft Limbs=medium:30lb for a total of 66"bow
Cartel Super Plunger (long) ...pretty sure I didn't need to get the long one, but again, I was guessing at what I needed to get!
Hoyt Super rest
Cartel Medalist lite sight
Cartel 30"aluminum carbon stabalizer w/3 removable weights
My draw length is 25-1/2" using the Pellerite method (wingspan) putting me somewhere around 25 lb actual draw weight.
I have a bowsquare and using it I have measured my brace height at 8-3/8" from the string to the pivot-point of the grip. The Hoyt manual recommends between 8-1/4"-9". Top tiller=6-3/4" Bottem tiller=6-11/16". Hoyt manual recommends 0"-3/8" of tiller...the bottom tiller being equal to or 3/8" less than the top tiller, so I am within specs there. My nock point is set at 1/2"above 90 degrees from the rest. (did that make sense?) I put the nock on following the instructions in the book I have: "Archery, Steps to Success", so I guess it should be right?
I have about 12 twists in the string, which is 18 strand fast flight. Hoyt manual recommends no less than 10 and the book says from 6 to 10 twists. My book says that the best bracing height for my length of bow would be between 8" to 9-1/4" and within that range the height that is the quietest should be the best brace height...I have twisted and untwisted string all day with no noticable (to me) change in the sound...it still seems loud. So I just put it at 8-3/8" because it is where I had it set when I finally gave up! LOL 
I could very well have a spine problem because my arrows are easton carbon connect youth arrows! I bought them becasue they were cheap and I was using them with my first bow which is a wooden longbow I got for $50!! I guess I am going to have to spend some real money and get me some real arrows! I have put my rest on using several pieces of double sided tape and adjusted my plunger so that when I nock an arrow and sit the bow on the floor in front of me and hold it out at arms length and line the string up with the center of the riser the arrow looks to be directly in line with the string.

I think that's about all the info i have...sorry for writing a darn book!
Ok, I have DLd the Easton Tuning guide and I am reading it now...


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## MacOfNiagara (Aug 2, 2006)

J.Smith said:


> Hi Paradoxical Cat, thanks for trying to help. No clubs around here for recurve...plenty of shops and clubs but they are all dedicated to camoflauge compound bows and 3D archery. which is why I had to buy my bow online sight unseen and with no help other than a book and what I have gleened from folks here at AT.
> Here's what I have:
> 
> Eclipse Riser RH=25"
> ...



Well I am still new to archery but unless I am reading something wrong a 25" riser with medium limbs will give you a 68" bow, not a 66 inch bow. Your brace height sounds right to me though, so maybe I am wrong or you mistyped your riser / limb combo. 

If you do indeed have a string for a 66" bow on a 68" inch bow then I would guess you would get a very loud bow. But again, your brace height would also be way off.

Good luck. I am sure some of the more experienced AT members can give you good advice.

This is from the Hoyt owners manual:

Riser Length Long Limbs Medium Limbs Short Limbs
Short Riser (23") 68" 66" 64"
Long Riser (25") 70" 68" 66"


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## zydeco (Jan 14, 2005)

I'm curious what arrows you are shooting. As far as setting the cock feather down, my understanding is that is acceptable for compounds since that involves a vertical paradox. I can't imagine that working on a recurve.

I returned to recurve archery after a long absence so I had a lot to learn just to get started. My first arrows were way too stiff and I had major fishtailing. My suggestion is to first make sure you have the correct arrows (or as close as you can get them) and then try the Tuning for Tens process.


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## J.Smith (Jul 28, 2006)

Yeah I mistyped...short limbs is what I have...for a 66" bow...trying to keep all of these measurements and figures in my head must be getting to me! LOL I am using Easton Carbon Connect arrows that I got at Dicks sporting goods for $20/dozen...I am sure since they are cheap arrows they are probably not correct for me. I am going to try to see if one of the archery stores around here can set me up with some Easton X7 Eclipse arrows of the correct spine and length. I am contemplating getting them fletched with feathers instead of vanes because I heard they are ultra forgiving and since I am just starting out maybe that is what I need. Plus I really like the way a shield cut feather looks!!


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## J.Smith (Jul 28, 2006)

oh yeah and I have been trying to tune my bow using the easton tuning guide so i switched back to the KAP magnetic rest that originally tore all of my vanes and adjusted it according to the tuning guide and it seems to be ok now...although after three shots I guess the tip of my plunger wasn't screwed in all the way so now it is missing!!  It was there when I took my first shot, but somewhere between there and my third shot it had popped off!! I am going to try to get to the shop today and see if I can get my arrows, a new string (the one I have now is WAY too tight...according to the Easton tuning guide) and hopefully they will also have a new tip for my plunger as well.


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## Paradoxical Cat (Apr 25, 2006)

J.Smith said:


> Hi Paradoxical Cat, thanks for trying to help. No clubs around here for recurve...plenty of shops and clubs but they are all dedicated to camoflauge compound bows and 3D archery. which is why I had to buy my bow online sight unseen and with no help other than a book and what I have gleened from folks here at AT.
> Here's what I have:
> 
> Eclipse Riser RH=25"
> ...


Hey J., This is helpful. I am only going to address a few things and then wait for a response. 

Ok.. I think Mac hit it, you probably have a 68" bow, but probably have the right string based on your starting brace height. First, what does the bow sound like? Is there a buzzing noise or a loud "thwap?" If so, I think the problem is the brace being too low. The strings may be hitting the tips of the limbs upon release. You can see this if you inspect the tips. You may want to have about 10 - 20 twists in the string. (I have 20+ on my Helix and a brace of 9".) 

The tiller sounds close to me...which makes me wonder about the weight setting of the bow. Are the limb bolt heads about the metal of the riser? If so, you are way out and need to tighten them...also, are the limb bolts tight? (I.E. not turnable by hand?)

What is the spine of your arrows? There should be a number on the shaft tha relates to the stiffness, it is usually a four digit number. My guess is that these shafts are just wrong for your bow and need to be replaced. I wouldn't bother trying to tune a bow with improper arrows, just because you will have to retune anyway.

How tall are you? I am concerned about your draw length and bow size. Is there a shop in your area that could make the measurement using a bow? Also, where do you anchor? If below the chin, that could shorten your draw length. If your draw is really that short, you may not be drawing enough on the bow for it to function properly. Remember, the tension in the recurve comes from the recurved tips.

I see you have added to the thread...So I'll stop here.

It sounds like you are making progress..including the addition of the plunger. I use a Cavalier and have had good luck with it. It is also relatively inexpensive.

One last thought: do you nock your arrows above or below the nock point?

I'll continue to follow this thread to consolidate the Q&A.

PC


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## J.Smith (Jul 28, 2006)

Hi PC, No I don't have a 68" bow...it is 66", I just mistyped! The limbs are short, not medium! Sorry! 
1. Sounds like a loud THWAP! or THONG! and when I have the sight installed it vibrates, but I think this is mainly because it is a cheap Cartel Medalist sight. I am not sure how much of the thwap might be caused by the fact that I have a string that is too thick for my nocks though...the Easton tuning guide said to nock the arrow so it is suspended from the string and then tap the string 1"-2" from the arrow and the arrow should drop from the string...I have to actually pull mine off and it causes the string to twang because the nocks are gripping the string so tightly! I have about 12 twists on my string.
2. The limb bolts are tight (unable to turn by hand). They have a locking screw on the back of the riser that you have to loosen to adjust the weight/tiller. I have them backed out just short of flush with the surface of the riser...going by the Hoyt owners manual, this _should_ be acceptable, but maybe I should tighten them/increase the weight all the way?
3.I am currently using Easton Carbon Connect arrows...these are very cheap carbon arrows and they don't even have a spine printed on them...just says 40lbs max and carbon connect on the side. I hope to be able to get to the archery shop today and get some better arrows and a new string that fits the nocks on them plus a new plunger tip because my popped off and disapeared in the grass 
4. I am 5'7". I used the pellerite method to determine my draw length, which means I stood against a wall and held both arms straight out at shoulder height while my wife measured from finger tip to finger tip and then I used the formula in "Archery, Steps to Success" to determine draw length. It goes like this: wingspan=66" For every inch under 71"subtract 1/2" from a "standard"28" draw length so: 71-66= 5.....5 x 1/2" = 2-1/2".....28" - 2-1/2" = 25-1/2" so my draw length using this method is 25-1/2" This seems to be pretty close, but without someone else to help me measure I can't tell if theis is exact or not...plus my form will improve as I go and my DL may change. I will try to get the guy at the shop to measure my DL while i am getting my arrows and stuff. 
5. I nock my arrow below the nock point

Thanks for all the help PC, I will let you know what arrows and stuff I get at the shop if they have what I am looking for. I hope to get the Easton eclipse aluminum arrows and I am going to see if they can fletch them with feathers for me because I read on here that they are more forgiving than vanes esp. for beginners!


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## Paradoxical Cat (Apr 25, 2006)

J.Smith said:


> Hi PC, No I don't have a 68" bow...it is 66", I just mistyped! The limbs are short, not medium! Sorry!
> 1. Sounds like a loud THWAP! or THONG! and when I have the sight installed it vibrates, but I think this is mainly because it is a cheap Cartel Medalist sight. I am not sure how much of the thwap might be caused by the fact that I have a string that is too thick for my nocks though...the Easton tuning guide said to nock the arrow so it is suspended from the string and then tap the string 1"-2" from the arrow and the arrow should drop from the string...I have to actually pull mine off and it causes the string to twang because the nocks are gripping the string so tightly! I have about 12 twists on my string.
> 2. The limb bolts are tight (unable to turn by hand). They have a locking screw on the back of the riser that you have to loosen to adjust the weight/tiller. I have them backed out just short of flush with the surface of the riser...going by the Hoyt owners manual, this _should_ be acceptable, but maybe I should tighten them/increase the weight all the way?
> 3.I am currently using Easton Carbon Connect arrows...these are very cheap carbon arrows and they don't even have a spine printed on them...just says 40lbs max and carbon connect on the side. I hope to be able to get to the archery shop today and get some better arrows and a new string that fits the nocks on them plus a new plunger tip because my popped off and disapeared in the grass
> ...



Hey J.

You cannot go wrong with X7-Eclipses. I shoot them and find them to be great arrows. Just pick cool colors for the fletching!!!

As for the string..wait until you get the arrows nocked. I think you may find that the new arrow nocks fit differently. If your previous arrows are for youth bows, then the nocks may be smaller to accommodate thinner strings and smaller hands. I use an 18 strand dyneema string, and I have no problems with my X7's nocks.

As for the noise, it could be in part due to the Cartel sight. I am not a fan. However, the vibration is probably being caused by shock on release, which is due in part to a too low brace height and, perhaps, too light arrows. Your arrows may also be too short. I'd have someone check your draw length on the bow, i.e. draw (carefully) and have someone mark the arrow. The Easton Guide will tell you where.

Without seeing you, I think your draw length is underestimated. I find that the Pellerite method gives a ballpark, but your mileage (and draw length) may vary.

As for the setting of your limb bolts..they seem ok.. But you might want to have someone check your draw weight.

Good luck.

PC


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## zydeco (Jan 14, 2005)

Suggest you exercise caution when selecting shafts. The Easton charts for aluminum arrows are skewed to the stiff side quite a bit. Get your draw length locked in, measure your actual draw weigt and then seek recommendations on shafts. There are some great folks who post here that can really help you zero in on just what you need.

For example, my draw length is 27.75 in and I'm pulling 32lbs. The Easton charts suggest that 1914 would be a good shaft - doesn't even come close. Based on a recommendation from a AT member, I'm shooting 1716s and they work great. 

I think it is really important that you take your time and take one step at a time since X-7s are not cheap arrows. I'm not the best one to help you with tuning, but you really need to shoot through paper with a bare shaft at about 12-15ft with the paper far enough in front of the mat to allow the shaft to clear the paper before impacting the mat. Nocking point comes first. Once you get a good tear, then work on spine. I'm between chores now, but will try to post the link to Tuning For Tens which is a really great tuning guide. You might try an internet search for Tuning for Tens.

Cheers


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## J.Smith (Jul 28, 2006)

Ok, I went to the archery shop and the guy there measured my DL...he said it was 27", but then he showed me he was measuring to the front of the riser. I have read that draw length should be measured to the "pivot point" of the grip. After I got home I carefully markedthe pivot point on my riser with tape and a marker and had my wife place a mark on three different arrows right in line with that mark...every time I got 25" exactly. So 25" should be my actual draw length right? So the guy said he was going to order my arrows based on 27"DL and 30lb draw weight...but my actual DL is 25" and my actual draw weight is 24lb at that length draw. He said he was gonna order 1914 X7 eclipses for me, but the easto website shaft selector gives me two choices: 1714 or 1812 for the X7's...now I am really confused! I am spending $90 on arrows and I am not even sure if they are going to be the right arrows or not!ukey: The guy at the shop was nice, but I am not 100% confident in how he measured my DL and picked my shafts! Today is Saturday. He won't be placing the order until Monday and they are open till 5:00 on Sunday so I could call and get him to change the order...I really would appreciate some input from you guys on what I should do! I really wish I had a shop around here that specialized in recurves!!


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## Paradoxical Cat (Apr 25, 2006)

J.Smith said:


> Ok, I went to the archery shop and the guy there measured my DL...he said it was 27", but then he showed me he was measuring to the front of the riser. I have read that draw length should be measured to the "pivot point" of the grip. After I got home I carefully markedthe pivot point on my riser with tape and a marker and had my wife place a mark on three different arrows right in line with that mark...every time I got 25" exactly. So 25" should be my actual draw length right? So the guy said he was going to order my arrows based on 27"DL and 30lb draw weight...but my actual DL is 25" and my actual draw weight is 24lb at that length draw. He said he was gonna order 1914 X7 eclipses for me, but the easto website shaft selector gives me two choices: 1714 or 1812 for the X7's...now I am really confused! I am spending $90 on arrows and I am not even sure if they are going to be the right arrows or not!ukey: The guy at the shop was nice, but I am not 100% confident in how he measured my DL and picked my shafts! Today is Saturday. He won't be placing the order until Monday and they are open till 5:00 on Sunday so I could call and get him to change the order...I really would appreciate some input from you guys on what I should do! I really wish I had a shop around here that specialized in recurves!!


J-

The Easton guide puts the draw length as being measured from 1 inch in front of the arrow's point of contact with the arrow rest. Remember that you will eventually be shooting with a clicker, so a longer arrow will be necessary. That said, where did you anchor when you had your drawlength measured? Under the chin? At the corner of your mouth?

As for the arrows: you can always cut down too long arrows. Remember that. But, if the spine is wrong then that doesn't really help. First, ask someone on this board or on GenArchDisc to run your numbers through one of the various programs that are out there. One problem with the Easton site is that that applet isn't always right. Next, you can always correct for spine over-stiffness by weighting the arrow tips. Also, you will be able to correct using the button. Also remember, as you get stronger and increase the weight of the bow, you will need stiffer-spined arrows. So, it is better to start with a slight stiffer arrow...and definitely better that having a weak spined arrow.

As a first matter..check your draw length again. Remember that you will have to adjust for having a clicker. Also, remember to use the proper anchor point when measure drawlength.

Good Luck.

PC


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## J.Smith (Jul 28, 2006)

Hi PC. I anchor under the chin, with the string touching my nose. I posted on general archery explaining what was up and maybe I will get some more opinions from those guys. I get what you are saying about going a little stiff and long and being able to adjust that later...but what did you mean about the button? Is that the plunger tension? Also how do you have to adjust when using a clicker? I have one, but haven't tried using it yet because my arrows are way too long to allow me to draw back far enough for the point to go past the clicker. Oh yeah, the guy at the shop redid the serving on my string with thinner serving so now it is a little smaller and I didn't buy a whole new string. it is still a little tight on the arrows I have now though so hopefully it will fit my new arrows when I get them like you said in an earlier post. I also got a chance to plat with a sure lock sight...I am sending this Cartel piece of junk back to Lancaster and getting a sure-lock! That sight was really nice! The loudness of my bow is there whether I havce any thing like sight or stabalizer attached or not, but I do notice a definite vibration coming from the Cartel sight when it is attached. Thanks again for all of your advice!


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## MacOfNiagara (Aug 2, 2006)

You know the current arrows that are fitting tight on the thick string could be causing vibration. If you have to pull it off the then bow has to pull it off. So, when the arrow would normally easily release, on your bow the string continues forward as the arrow nock tries to yank off the string. This could pull your string far enough forward with enough force to cause it to slap on your limbs.

Just a theory, but as I said I am very green to archery so take all my guesses with liberal salt.


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## J.Smith (Jul 28, 2006)

Ya know Mac, I had thought of that, but until I get my new arrows I have no way to know for sure if that is what is causing it or not! I think that it may be part of the problem if not all of it. Even when I get my new arrows I may still have to end up getting a slimmer string, but I am hoping that it will be like PC said and the new arrows will fit better! Thanks. Oh BTW, is your name Mac? My grandpas name was Mac! Kind of an unusual name. Never met anyone else with that name.


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## Paradoxical Cat (Apr 25, 2006)

J.Smith said:


> Hi PC. I anchor under the chin, with the string touching my nose. I posted on general archery explaining what was up and maybe I will get some more opinions from those guys. I get what you are saying about going a little stiff and long and being able to adjust that later...but what did you mean about the button? Is that the plunger tension? Also how do you have to adjust when using a clicker? I have one, but haven't tried using it yet because my arrows are way too long to allow me to draw back far enough for the point to go past the clicker. Oh yeah, the guy at the shop redid the serving on my string with thinner serving so now it is a little smaller and I didn't buy a whole new string. it is still a little tight on the arrows I have now though so hopefully it will fit my new arrows when I get them like you said in an earlier post. I also got a chance to plat with a sure lock sight...I am sending this Cartel piece of junk back to Lancaster and getting a sure-lock! That sight was really nice! The loudness of my bow is there whether I havce any thing like sight or stabalizer attached or not, but I do notice a definite vibration coming from the Cartel sight when it is attached. Thanks again for all of your advice!


Hey J:

The "button" is the "Berger Button" or "plunger." You can correct for arrow stiffness by adjusting the tension in the spring of button/plunger. So yes, exactly.

As for the clicker, the basic idea is that the clicker should "click" at the point you reach your normal consistent draw. With regards to the arrow length, the arrow tip will have to reach the clicker plate in order for the clicker to work. The pro-shop person should/may have taken this into account when calculating your arrow length.

Regardless, congratulations on deciding on the Sure-Loc. It's a better sight than the Cartel. I think you will find it easier to work with.

PC


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## zydeco (Jan 14, 2005)

The industry standard for draw length is 1.75in past the pivot point of the riser. This was on the Hoyt web site some time ago. Consequently, if you measure out at 25in to the pivot pont of the riser, you actual draw lenght is 26.75in. The one inch past the rest is a point of departure for minimum shaft length. Shaft length and draw length are not necessarily the same. If you are actually pulling under 30lb, DO NOT let someone sell you 1914 shafts. I tried it pulling 32lbs and let me assure you those shafts were so far stiff they were beyond hope. As I stated earlier, I'm pulling 32llbs with a 27.75in draw length and I'm shooting 1716s. Check the Easton charts and see just how many steps back 1716s are from 1914s. That will give you some idea just how much the Eason charts are skewed to the stiff side. I was led to try the 1716s by a long time recurve shooter who recalled the old Easton charts and who truly understands the spine issue. If you are down to around 25lbs actual draw weight, you will likely need to go a bit weaker than 1716s.


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## MacOfNiagara (Aug 2, 2006)

*Mac*



J.Smith said:


> Ya know Mac, I had thought of that, but until I get my new arrows I have no way to know for sure if that is what is causing it or not! I think that it may be part of the problem if not all of it. Even when I get my new arrows I may still have to end up getting a slimmer string, but I am hoping that it will be like PC said and the new arrows will fit better! Thanks. Oh BTW, is your name Mac? My grandpas name was Mac! Kind of an unusual name. Never met anyone else with that name.


Well since ya asked :wink: 

My grandfather's name was also Mac, or his nickname was Mac. Our last name is MacDougall which means son of dougall. Mc or Mac both mean 'son of'. Dougall is from the gaelic dubghall and means dark stranger. My ancestors were the oldest clan of highlanders and ruled the western portion of scotland for about a century.

Everyone always called my grandfather "old man Mac", it was kind of a 'Norm' thing like cheers. So when he passed away I inherited the nickname to carry on the tradition. My actual name is Darren, but now most people call me Mac. I also like that the name because it has a laid back easy going feel to it. That is the way I am.

Sorry ya asked now huh?

But next time I have a touch of scotch with my Dad I will give a toast to your Mac. Slainte Mor Mac! (Great health Mac!)


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## zydeco (Jan 14, 2005)

J

You need to go to www.texasarchery.org. On the left side of the home page scroll down and click on "Documents". When you get to that page scroll down the main part of the page till you get to "Tuning For Tens" (the page is in alphabetical order).

Here you will find a very clear and easy to follow guide on how to set up and tune your bow. You will find invaluable inormation on just what the plunger does and how to adjust it during the tuning process. Note that you you will also find out the limitations of the plunger - in other words it can only do so much as far as tuning for spine. If the shafts are just too stiff, no plunger made will be able to tune the shafts.

At this juncture, I again recommend patience, research, and more patience. I started out with arrows that were just too stiff and let me tell you I had some really wild looking arrow flights. I'll look at my software on shaft selection and try to give you a recommendation for you set up. You may wish to consider less expensive shafts such as the Easton Jazz to start with. That way if you have to change shafts due to spine issues, you will not be so heavily invested. It would be nice if your local pro shop had a paper tuning set up and a variety of bare shafts that you could try. Since they are recommending 1914s for you set up, you may want to look elsewhere for help. Perhaps they can put you in touch with a recurve shooter in your locale that can work with you one on one.

Cheers


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## zydeco (Jan 14, 2005)

J, I don't think I have enough data to run Archer's Advantage and provide any menaingful help. I looked at the Easton charts again, and suggest you are probably looking at 1714s. I think 1716s might work, but may be a tad stiff given your light draw weight, but then you can crank the limbs down and add a little weight. I'm not sure about 1812s. That shaft will give you about the same spine as a 1716, but the thin wall (.012) means the shaft will be more prone to bending. Since you are just starting out, you may bang up a shaft or two. 

I just noticed you are in Jacksonville. There must be at least one archery club in your area and such a club should able to put you in touch with a recurve shooter. If not, send me a pm and I'll mail you a 1716 shaft for you to try bareshaft before you spend too many bucks on expensive arrows. Even one shaft will give you an idea if you can tune to that spine. I live in Fort Walton Beach, and while that is quite a drive, if you are ever over this way I can try to help. Having said that I'm no coach. I competed successfully in the days of laminated rosewood bows before plungers were invented. Just got back into archery about a year and a half ago. I have a 20yard range in my back yard and have a set up for paper tuning. Noticed you are USGC. I'm retired USAF.


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## J.Smith (Jul 28, 2006)

Wow! What a lot of info since I last checked on here! *First Mac:* Hey thanks for toasting my grandpa. His actual name was "Maceroy Smith". What a wierd name, huh? I've never heard of anyone else with that name! *Next Paradoxical Cat:* I thought the "button" must be the plunger. The tip of mine popped off today and the shop didn't have one so I actually ended up making one out of a wooden dowel...seems to work ok, but I'm not sure how it's going to hold up! I think that he _was_ taking the clicker into account when measuring because he pointed out that with the length he was ordering the clicker would still have just enough room on the plate to work properly when I finally start using one. Yeah, I am definitely going to get the sureloc. Hopefully I can get my money back for the cheap Cartel...if not I guess I'll put it on E-bay or something...hate to sell junk to another archer though... *Finally, Zydeco:* Man you know a lot about arrow shafts! Where do you get the info that tells you what the thickness of the shaft wall is?! So if I have a 1712, 1812, and 1912 does the 17 have the thickest wall and the 19 the thinnest? that seems backwards, but I still haven't figured out this numbering system! I wish my shop could recommend some recurvers to me, but it seems that everyone there shoots compound. The shop I went to is actually at a range, but it is a 3D range...they do have an (small) indoor range, but still only compound archers there as well. The only other shop I have found in the area is even worse...the guy there actually tried to sell me the Hoyt Tiburon with 50lb. limbs when I told him I was interested in FITA style target archery. He also tried to tell me what I really need is to start shooting longbow and then he made fun of all the colorful bows the target guys shoot...I won't patronize a place like that! I downloaded a copy of the Tuning For Tens instructions and I will definitely be using it when I tune my bow. I also DL'd a copy of the Easton tuning guide...have you seen it? Paradoxical Cat recommended it and it is very detailed as well. I haven't read both of them thoroughly yet, but from what I have read so far they both seem to cover similar areas... Thanks for trying put my info into your program and help me out. I think that I am going to call the guy tomorrow and have him change my order to the 1714s or 1716s, and I think the Jazz suggestion is a good one...hope he doesn't have a problem refunding about half of my money though. I would love to be able to try out several shafts/spines etc. before buying, but unfortunately all they stock are hunting shafts that are WAY too stiff! (and camoflauge!!ukey: :wink Thanks a lot for all you guys' help! It was very kind of you to offer to mail me a bare shaft Z, but I think that by downgrading to the Jazz's I won't be as nervous now! LOL Hey go Airforce! Aim High!


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## J.Smith (Jul 28, 2006)

Wow Zydeco, I just mapquested Fort Walton Beach, talk about hurricane alley! I sometimes drive on I-10 to Pascagoula/Mosspoint MS for work, but lately I have stared flying every time. Got tired of putting all those miles on my truck! Not to mention the gas prices are so high now that it isn't worth it to drive anymore! LOL If I do get out that way I might have to let you know so we can get together though! Likewise if you come to Jax let me know...at least for the next year anyway...transfering then to who knows where! Gotta love military life! I just hope the next place I go I have enough room in my yard to have a "range" like I do now. I just have enough room for 20yards!! When the grass gets too high I'll go out and mow one big strip between the firing line and my target!! Drives my wife nuts!! LOL:wink:


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## zydeco (Jan 14, 2005)

Hi J,

There are a lot of people on AT that know universes more than I do about our avocation. I did learn a few things from the school of my own bad decisions. I went through several expensive sets of arrows till I figured out a few things. Luckily I had lots of help from more experieced archers here on AT.

As far as the numbering on aluminum shafts here is the story. The first two numbers identify the outside diameter of the shaft to the nearest sixty-fourth of an inch. The second two numbers state the wall thickness to the nearest thousandth of an inch. For example a 1716 shaft is 17/64" outside diameter and the wall thickness is .016". Both numbers affect spine and the wall thickness definetely affect strength. For example an 1812 shaft will be easier to bend if you bounce it off a tree than let's say a 1716 due to the different wall thickness.

Spine is expressed in inches of deflection. The Easton catalog has a description of just how the weight is applied in measuring that deflection. Just remember that the higher the spine number, the greater the deflection (the more it bends), thus the "weaker" the shaft. For example the 1914s that the shop recommended to you have a spine of 658 while the 1716s have a spine of 880. That means the 1914s won't bend nearly as much upon draw than the 1716s. This illustrates my point about the Easton spine chart being skewed to the stiff side. I backed down from 1914 to 1716 to get a shaft that is correctly spined for my set up. Having said that, you can make some adjustments with point weight, etc. but I would first try to find a shaft that works with the standard Easton points. For example, I like the X-7s so I tried a set of 1814s. They are pretty stiff for my set up, but I increased point weight with melted solder from 60grains to 75grains. That weakened the shaft to make it comparable to the 1716s. 

I'm not sure at this point what is the best shaft for you, but I'm guessing somewhere in the 1714 or 1716 arena. As I said before, the 1716 may be a tad stiff, but you can crank in more weight on the limbs to correct that. It's tough coming up with a "best" shaft until you have your draw length down to some level of consistency. That is why I would not start with the more expensive shafts.

I have used the Easton Tuning Guide, but have really stayed with the Tuning for Tens method. Realize that your release is critical and developing a clean release not only takes time but will really affect your paper tears when bare shaft tuning. Work on the release and when you tune don't rely on just one shot (tear) when you make adjustments.

Let me know how you make out with your local shop. I have a couple of unused 1716s and will be happy to mail one for you to try if that will help you decide on a shaft size for your set up. Don't give up on looking for someone in your area to help out. 

Keep in touch.

Lee


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## zydeco (Jan 14, 2005)

J, try this link:http://www.clubkayak.com/greenwave/services.asp?catid=9

Kinda strange but this is a Kyaking site but has a pretty good list of Florida archery clubs and contacts. If these clubs are like the ones here, the vast majortiy of members are compund shooters, but there should be a few experienced recurvers. If so, folks in the club will know who the recurve shooters are.


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## J.Smith (Jul 28, 2006)

huh, that is a little strange. LOL Thanks. I wonder where in this country you can find target archers?! I read about them, but I don't think they exist off the internet! Jacksonville is a big city so I would have expected to find some here, but for a big city this place doesn't have as much "culture" as you might expect! LOL!


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## J.Smith (Jul 28, 2006)

I called the shop and talke d to the guy there and we switched my order to the 1716s based on his revised recomendation when I told him I wanted to go with my corrected draw weight and not what the limbs were rated at for 28". Also I am getting the XX75s, which are a little cheaper. When i go to tuning the arrows, someone mentioned adding weight...from what I understand to add weight to the rear of the arrow you have to use a wrap but to add it to the front I am not sure...if they are screw-in types, then you just get heavier/lighter tips and switch them out...but I am getting glue-in "nibs" I think is what he said...they look like bullet points. How would you add weight to these? The tips are $12 so I would think it could get expensive to keep trying different weights...esp. since they do not stock that kind of tip!


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## Paradoxical Cat (Apr 25, 2006)

J.Smith said:


> When i go to tuning the arrows, someone mentioned adding weight...from what I understand to add weight to the rear of the arrow you have to use a wrap but to add it to the front I am not sure...if they are screw-in types, then you just get heavier/lighter tips and switch them out...but I am getting glue-in "nibs" I think is what he said...they look like bullet points. How would you add weight to these? The tips are $12 so I would think it could get expensive to keep trying different weights...esp. since they do not stock that kind of tip!


J-

You can add weight to the tips of arrows to weaken a stiff spine. Generally, the back of a field tip is hollow, and you add weight in thise hollow portion. Usually this is done by adding a measured mount of solder to the tip. Some tips allow screw in weights. (Some field tips are solid, usually for carbon arrows, these have scored break off sections to reduce the weight.)

Check with the shop person to find out what you are getting.

You won't play with tip weight until after you have determined that your arrows are too stiff and you cannot correct it with button tension. Also, if you expect to increase your draw weight quickly, you may not bother at all.

PC


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## zydeco (Jan 14, 2005)

J, I totally agree with Paradoxical Cat. Don't worry about point weight or weight at the nock end. Patience, patience, patience.

First, I think you may want to increase brace height to the max recommended by Hoyt - I think that is 9". See if that quietens things down. Additonally that change will add a little draw weight which may be more beneficial than you think.

When you get your arrows, go slow as you cut the length. I hope you are not shooting with a clicker yet. In my opinion, the clicker can come later, but now you should follow the KISS principle as much as possible. It does not hurt a thing to have the arrow a bit long if you are not using a clicker. Right now the clicker is just one additional thing to worry about. Concentrate on drawing, anchoring and release. Note that shortening the shaft will stiffen it. Consequently, pick a length that seems a little long but that is comfortable to you. Using the tuning for tens metholology, shoot a bare shaft or several and adjust nocking point based on the paper tear. I recall you had set your nocking point at 1/2" and that may be a bit high. Nocking point is one of the most significant factors in group size, so that is why you need to get that adjusted first. Once you get the nocking point tear as one vertical hole, then look at the horizontal tear. If the arrow indicates a bit weak, you can then start shortening the shaft. If the tear indicates a stiff shaft, then you can crank in the limbs. Some combination of both actions should get you to a bareshaft paper tear that is less than one inch horizontal.

You have not discussed fletching. Know that a lighter draw weight makes developing a clean realease a bit more difficult than a heavier draw weight - simple physics. I for one believe that if you can develop a clean release with a light draw weight, you are well on the road to success. Having said that you should realize that feathers are the most forgiving fletching, so that is where I would start. If you start with vanes and your release is not consistent, then you will have a lot of frustration.

Don't worry about adding weight to the nock end. If you decide you need to add poiint weight to weaken the shaft, send me a pm and I can walk you through an easy method to do that.

Lastly for this post, be prepared for frustration. I can almost assure you that you will experience a bit of that demon. The first three months I tried getting back into archery, I was ready to quit. Then I discovered Tuning for Tens and got help from folks here on AT. Coupling that with some research and reflection on what I was doing that was not working soon lead me to a point where fun exceeded frustration. Also be prepared to make some arrow changes, that is why I recommend not starting with too costly a set of shafts.

Well one more thought. Have you read up on back tension? Drawing using the back muscles and keeping the bow arm down so that you have good muscle and skeletal alilgnment is critical. There are lots of past threads on this subject. I'm still learning, but when I was shooting years ago, we had no concept of back tension.


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## J.Smith (Jul 28, 2006)

Hi PC & Z. You guys have been really helpful with all of your advice so first let me thank you for that! 

I have another thread going in the general archery forum asking for help with arrow too and Nuts & Bolts is the guy who was talking about using wraps and weights and basically made me realize just how much I don't know about archery!! LOL That guy is so knowledgeable it's crazy, as I've read in several of his other posts. I am thankful for his advice as well, but I think for now I am just going to keep things as simple as possible...cheaper arrows, not worrying about weighting the arrows, etc. Maybe in a few weeks or months I'll be ready to step it up a bit, but right now I just want to shoot! I even went out in the back yard tonight and had a ball just shooting barebow (sending that cheap Cartel sight back and getting a sureloc!) with my old beat-up arrows! They fishtailed a bit, but I was really just concentrating on my form and my release.

I do have a book that I have been using that talks a lot about form and even has several "Mimic" drills where you don't even nock an arrow, but just practice drawing with good "T" form and a good anchor...concentrating on every aspect. It is really a good book and I would recomend it to anyone just starting out like I am.

When I found it it was such a relief because here in one place was all the bits and pieces I have been trying to gleen off the net! it is called "Archery, Steps To Success" by Kathleen Haywood and Catherine Lewis publishe dby Human Kenetics...Anyway, really good book, check it out!

You know Zydeco it is so cool that you mentioned the feather fletching because I had already decided to go that route! I already talked to the guy and picked out colors and lengths and everything! 3" hens-yellow, cock-white, nock white. 

I would be even happier if he had that day-glo orange, but he didn't have any in stock. Those orange ones are ugly as sin, but they sure make tracking a lost arrow much easier!! But the yellow and white should be fairly visible as well. 

I think the fletching is all gonna be right wing or right helical or something, but I'm not really sure. Shouldn't matter much for me at 20 yards anyway from what I understand, right? If the fletching is too long or has too much spiral on it, it will create drag and slow your arrows down too much at longer distances, isn't that correct? Anyway the 3" right hand feathers is what the guy recommended.

As far as arrow length, I am not using a clicker yet. I bought one so I'd have it, but am not even trying to use it yet! My actual DL=25". I add 1.75" to get AMO DL right? so that's 26.75" which I guess would be my arrow length if I were using a clicker...I think the guy said he is going to start mine off at 27.5" so that should be plenty I would think to allow me to trim down if necessary later on. 

I think I am going to stay with my light limbs for a while. I really am not shooting anything over 20 yards and I don't even know where I could go around here to shoot further than that so I see no reason to step up the limb weight...my el-cheapo target already lets an occasional arrow all the way through every now and then even with these low weight limbs!!

Hey, one more thing guys: Is there a breathing technique I shouold be using when shooting...like with a rifle "let the breath half way out and hold" sort of thing?! If that is covered in my book I haven't gotten to it yet...I am only on step 3 of 11...the first two being sizing the bow and safety precautions! Step 3 is "shooting with good form".

 Anyway, thanks again for all the help guys!


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## zydeco (Jan 14, 2005)

The fletching you mentioned should work just fine. If you are right handed, you want to shoot right wing feathers, and I prefer helical fletch for feathers. You should check out Lancaster Archery Supply's web site and get a copy of their printed catalog. Making your own arrows is really easy. A Blitzenberg fletching jig will cost less than $70.00 and you can buy any color of Gateway feathers that suit your fancy. 

Don't worry about too much info such as wraps and cresting right now, especially if you are shooting aluminum arrows at 20 yards. Stick to the basics and work on form. In my younger days I competed at the collegiate level, mostly indoors. Since that is my comfort zone, I stick to 20 yards in my back yard. 

Almost forgot, I don't worry about breathing too much. Maybe it comes naturally since I do a lot of rifle and pistol shooting. One thing to think about and this may see crazy is to keep your mouth closed. Seriously, if you are anchoring under your chin, you want to make sure you keep your mouth closed and that your drawing hand is anchored in a consistent manner. There is a lot written on shot sequence, so do as much research as you can.


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## FlyingDutchmen (Mar 3, 2006)

I shoot a Orange (Holland, Netherlands) Eclipse. (the only orange I have seen)
After shooting 32# I went to 36#. My limbs are medium Vector ones.
So I have 68 Inch.

My bow is not loud, louder then others with 36#
(my girlfriend shoots a Xpert with 36# Winex)

I have a 14 strands string, 452X.
Shooting with Easton Navigator 710 (correct spine, Outdoor shooting)
and Easton X7-1914 (a bit too heavy spined, but works for me, Indoor shooting)
Both arrows are about 28 inch. 

Using Beiter stabilisation with extender, works great I think.
having a tiller of about 4 mm.


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## Jimmy Sweden (Oct 24, 2005)

okay now im scared... is target fita archery relly that slim sport in the america? i mean here in sweden its the reversed you almost cant find a single bow hunter and the ratio recurve/compund is 50/50, its almost freacks me out to read about this situation, man and now to the thing i want to say good luck with your archery and i relly hope you enjoy al of it both the problems and the well not so hard parts... take care


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## J.Smith (Jul 28, 2006)

Hey Thanks Jimmy Sweden, I am enjoying archery very much so far! Yeah, nothing against the bow hunters, but it gets frustrating being able to walk into pretty much any sporting goods store in america and walk out fully outfitted with a compound bow and any accesories you could wish for hunting, but trying to find target archery equipment is like trying to find a chocolate chip at a weight watchers convention! LOL! Flying dutchman, that must be one bright bow! Sounds cool! I saw the orange color online, but I went with the black. I almost got the red, but figured I'g go with the "stealthy" one! LOL! The only thing about the black is it shows a LOT of fingerprints!! doh! Didn't think of that when I ordered it! I saw a black Hoyt Tiburon and I thought the paintjob would be the same, but it isn't...the Tiburon's finish is almost like a flat textured coating or something. the eclipse is just gloss black paint. Zydeco, the Bitz jig is going to be one of my upcoming purchases...first I gotta get a new target because I have just about worn mine out (more on that in a minute) and then I have to get that Sureloc sight I've been looking at!! I wasn't sure if breathing was a big part of shooting or not, I just try to breath "smoothly" I guess...seems to do ok. Ok, about the target...is there a particular one that you recommend for long life/durability when left outside? The one I have now I got at Dick's Sporting Goods and it is just a 2" thick piece of foam 24" x 22". The center is so far gone that it isn't uncommon for an arrow to pass completely through and hit my backstop 4 feet away (when I'm able to get one into the center , that is)! There is another more expensive one at Dick's I am thinking about getting and it says it is made for broadheads, so I guess if it can handle broadheads then it should surely handle my little target nibs, right? It is 26" x 26" x 14" and it is made of many 1/8" thick layers sandwiched together and sinched tight with banding around the outside. The theory is that the arrow just parts two layers and slides in between instead of actually creating a hole as it enters. $70 Seems like a fair price. I have seen the really nice ones for $200-$300, but if I want that sight any time soon I will have to wait to get one of those! The wife's patience is growing thin!! LOL!!


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## zydeco (Jan 14, 2005)

Hi J,

Believe me I understand about the wife's patience. August 23rd will mark our 37th year together - only she and our Lord know why she has put up with me for so long.

I tried a $75.00 "Black Hole" target from Bass Pro. Layered foam. The arrows pushed pieces of foam out the back and the thing lasted for about 90 days. Tried a Saunders straw mat. Heavy and the center shot out quickly. Stinks like rotting hay. A couple of months ago I bought an American Whitetail "Range Block" (30" x30") with the replaceable "Velicore". So far that thing is great. I ordered directly from American Whitetail since Lancaster does not stock this target. Cost about $150.00 plus shipping. Not cheap, but it will outlast several of those costing $75.00. Lots of folks have great success with building a frame of two by eights (plywood cut to size is cheaper) and putting carpet on the front and back. Stuff the area between the carpet with rags from the local Goodwill at a buck a bag. Most carpet dealers will let you prowl their dumpsters for carpet they pull up from work sites. In the interim you may wish to just put some carpet scraps on the front of a less expensive foam target. Again, you can get carpet scraps free from a carpet shop and when a piece of carpet wears out, then just replace it.

One thing I failed to mention that worked for me was to start out with a lot of blank bale shooting. Stand only about 10 ft from the target mat, don't use a sight, and just concentrate on draw, anchor and release. Then when you put the sight on, don't try shooting any further than 12-15 yards. This is a geat confidence builder. Lots of folks recommend using a sight with just an open aperture - no pin nor dot. I use a AMBO adjustable iris with no dot. Love it. Not having a pin capitalizes on the human eye's natural abiliaty to center things and keeps you from over aiming.


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## J.Smith (Jul 28, 2006)

Huh, that is good to know about the layered target...I was all set to get one tommorow. The carpet and rag idea sounds good, but I am concerned about when it rains and gets all stinky...hmm...I saw a Morrel "Yellow Jacket" target that looks promising. http://www.morrelltargets.com/details.asp?product=6 The stuffing is supposed to never wear out and the cover is "waterproof and replaceable". Ummm...wonder why they make it "waterproof" when I am just gonna shoot it full of holes?! Anyway, I could build a 2 x 4 frame to hang it from to get it up off the ground a bit and they claim it lasts for years. Think I'll try it. $43. too!! Cheap! Good idea about the blank bale shooting...I am sort of doing that now, Not really aiming, just concentrating on form, but from 20 yards...I'll move closer like you say so it is even easier! I understand you use the back muscles when you draw...do you have any advice like drills to do to concentrate on the back muscles? Seems like when I don't think about it, I do just fine, but when I concentrate on using the back muscles, I tense too much and shoot high/left. I saw that AMBO adjustable iris aperture...wasn't sure how it was supposed to be used so that's cool that you mentioned it. I really like that idea! Too bad it is SO expensive. I was looking at the beiter aperture for when I finally get my new sight. It comes with a couple of different dots and more are available for about $2. I saw one scope that has a lense (not legal for FITA though, right?) that only magnifies in the very center, so the ten ring gets real big when you are sighted in...seemed interesting. You were talking about fletching earlier. Right helical for right handed arachers you said...how can you tell by looking at the arrow which is right hand and which is left? Also, feather fletching comes in right wing and left wing...do you have to use right wing feathers for right helical fletching? BTW, I moved my brace height to 9" and it seemed to help a little with the noise. Either that or I am just getting used to it! LOL! I gotta tell you though, I am having a blast shooting it! The only thing is...I wish I had an indoor range! During the day I sweat my butt off when I am shooting, and in the evening when it starts to cool off the mosquitoes try to carry me off! Can't win for losing!


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## zydeco (Jan 14, 2005)

OK, here goes with what little I know:

Weatherproofing your target - buy a cheap tarp from Wal Mart. I keep my American Whitetail covered since the manufacturer told me that UV will break down the material it is made from.

Drills for Back Tension - I suppose blank bale shooting is one of the best. Get close and don't even think about aiming. I think you should think about those back muscles. You may be tensing up your drawing hand or your arm muscles. In any case, you should work to identify what is happening so you can build the correct muscle memory. When you draw, do you feel your drawing shoulder drop down a bit at anchor? You should. That will tell you you are using your back muscles. Also, make sure your bow arm is down. A high bow arm is not what you want. A while back someone suggested holding your bow arm high with your hand agaisnt a door frame and lean your weight against the door frame. Then drop the bow arm down (you should feel a natural spot that the shoulder drops into), then once again lean into the door frame. You should notice a big difference. With the shoulder down, your skeletal structure is aligned better and you will be steadier. You can practice the drawing motion without a bow to get the feel of the shoulder positons and the drop you will get in the drawing shoulder. Also, take your shirt off and have someone stand behind you and take a photo of your back as you go through the draw sequence. I'm fortunate to be near Hurlburt Field and am able to use the excellent gym here. I spoke to one of the physical trainers and described what I wanted to work on and he has set up a great work out routine for me.

As far as aperture, go inexpensive. The Beiter is fine and you can even remove the reticle. One of the beiter apertures is a diamond shape and I found that works about as good as a ring aperture. You can buy a 3/8" diamater aperture from Lancaster for about $10.00 and that should work fine. Alternatively, try making your own. Get a 8-32 screw that is long enough, cut the head off, and find a suitable 3/8 ring (teflon, copper, brass, etc) and affix it to the threaded stock. I haven't tried this yet, but several folks on AT have done so and rave about the results. Right now I think you really want to stay away from any dot or pin since that may cause you to focus too much on aiming and may cause you to hold the shot too long and force the release.

Fletching: Right wing for right handed shooters. You can go with either a straight clamp or a right helical. I use the helical just because that is what I always shot. If you hold a right wing feather between thumb and index finger, looking at the rear of the feather you will note the front tip of the feather is curled to the left. When an arrow is fletched with a right helical clamp, the front of the feather will be shifted slightly right of center.

Sweating in Florida? Tell me it's not so. It has been so humid here that it is almost unbearable. I take my pedestal fan outside and plug it in via extnsion card. The fan moves enough air to help with the heat and the mosquitos as well while not affecting my arrow flight. I put the fan about 8' behind me.

Almost forgot: My trainer has put emphasis on muscle endurance. Lighter weights and more reps than you would if you were trying to build strength or bulk up. Your basic strength should be ok, but your muscles should become accustomed to repetitive demands.


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## J.Smith (Jul 28, 2006)

Thanks a lot Z. You have been really helpful and I really appreciate it. One of the things I enjoy most about activities like this is all of the really geat people you get to meet. Thanks for the tips...I am definitely going to be working on that blank bale!

I might try to make an aperture as you suggest...I can think of some good ways (I think)...Maybe start with a 8/32 screw & use something like a short piece of dowel rod (brass maybe?) and drill the 3/8" hole. I could make several with different size apertures and have somewhat the same effect of your adjustable aperture model...except it would be considerably more of a pain to switch the aperture size than with yours I'm sure! 

I can't wait to start fletching my own arrows! I am going to use all my old cedar shafts and these cheap carbon ones to practice on. I saw some absolutely gorgeous arrows that this guy made at the archery shop...he used a splicing technique so that each fletch was multi-colored and he also used the shield cut feathers which I think look great! He spliced each feather together so smoothly that you couldn't tell where the seams were! It was really cool!

I think I am going to resort to extreme measures to beat the heat too! I need to get a fan, but I was also thinking about setting up some shade! I have one of those portable pic-nic awnings and I am going to set it up so I can stand under it while I shoot!! :wink: LOL! My wife thinks I am crazy! 

Heh, heh...work out! I don't usually do what you might call a workout! I play raquet-ball, ride my bike (recumbent bicycle), kayak and hike, but I try to stay away from any type of real structured exercise because i just can't stick with it if it isn't fun! As I am getting a little older (32 next month! Don't laugh Z!) I have a few issues like back pain and a rotator cuff problem and the occasional pulled muscle that I need to address with therapeutic excercises, but I am bad about not doing them! Too lazy I guess! I know when I first started shooting this new bow I noticed at the end of a long session I could feel it in the deltoid of my bow-arm! Especially when I used the stabalizer and weights! I dropped the weights off to allow myself to work up to them because this bow is much heavier than the longbow I was shooting previously. Now I have 1 weight on and so far so good. Tried all three weights again last night and right away I could tell I wasn't ready for them yet, so I took them back off. I could do a few shots, but no way could I maintain good form over time with that extra weight! It's funny because it only feels like a few ounces when I hold the weights in my hand, but when you stick them out on the end of a 30" stabalizer and shoot 40-50 times you can really feel the difference!


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## zydeco (Jan 14, 2005)

Sounds like you are on the right track with ideas about a home made apeture. Like I said, I have not tried one yet, but several other on AT have. One gent told me he found a teflon bushing at Ace Hardware and that worked just fine.

I left archery years ago because of shoulder problems. I grew up in Louisiana and did a lot of fishing in a jon boat, paddling from the front with a short canoe paddle braced behind my forearm. I think this really weakened my rotaor cuff, but for years it was diagnosed as bursitis. The year before I retired from the USAF, I fell playing racquetball and ripped the rotator cuff bicep tendon completely off the bone. Did not find out just had bad the damage was for a little over a year. The cortosone shots quit helping and my surgeon recommended an MRI which told the story. Had the surgery which took almost a year out of my life but now I can do anything I want. Having said that, my counsel to you is to really take care of that rotator cuff. Even when I don't go to the gym, I try to keep up with several exercises at home. I had my surgery in 1999 and the surgical techniques have improved imensely since then, but still very painful and a long road to recovery.

By the way, if your target is on the ground, I suggest you consider building a simple stand to elevate it to shoulder height as long as you have a good backstop in case of misses. I use an inexpensive set of plastic saw horses with a piece of plywood across them. Shooting at shoulder level will help with your form and I think you will get better results out of the tuning process.


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## Dave T (Mar 24, 2004)

In addition to the book you already found, I would recommend you get a copy of Rick McKinney's The Simple Art of Winning. Then read it several times until you understand most everything in there. You will be miles ahead.

Jimmy Sweded, his experience is not unique. I live in a large metropolitan area and don't know of an archery shop that carries target recurve equipment. If they happen to have a recurve at all it's either a kids beginners bow or a hunting bow. It's wheels and camo every where you go.

Dave


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