# Can someone define what "Paralever" is?



## chrstphr (Nov 23, 2005)

there is already an adapter on the market for that. 

Chris


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## HikerDave (Jan 1, 2011)

Bob Furman said:


> I'm familiar with what the original "Paralever" meaning was steaming from the rear suspension of the motorcycle, but in the context of the Hoyt Formula, exactly how is this a "Paralever" design nad what are the advantages?
> 
> If someones were to come up with an adapter for the Hoyt Formula that would allow the use of ILF limbs, would it still have similar performance? Or possibly better performance?


The topic of an adapter has been discussed here before. Someone designed an adapter but didn't bring the adapter to market because it was too costly to produce.

The accuracy advantage of the Formula paralever attachment is that a given amount slop in the dovetail and tiller bolts translates into less motion at the limb tips.

The performance advantage of the Formula has also been discussed. The consensus was that that for current design of limbs the base of the limb is not moving enough to contribute any energy or help the smoothness of the bow in any way.

The Formula attachment requires less material strength at the end of the riser, because the limb has less leverage on the mounting. This is a potential reliability, weight, or strength improvement. Using an adapter negates that advantage.

I'd buy an adapter to use my Formula HPX riser with other ILF limbs, but only if it cost around 100 to 150 dollars or less. I can already buy Hoyt, Border or MK Korea limbs for my riser.

I think that the Formula system is superior, but no other manufacturer can adopt it because the Hoyt IP on the damper bushings on the limb effectively locks other manufacturers out, as there's insufficient space for a stabilizer bushing at the ends of the riser when using the paralever attachment. If the system was going to become a new standard, by now other manufacturers would have produced a similar riser and we would have ILF II.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

> The accuracy advantage of the Formula paralever attachment


Yet to be proven...



> The performance advantage of the Formula


Again, yet to be proven.

IMO, (and yes, I've shot the formula bows) the greatest advancement in the Formula design is vibration reduction, and I think this is as much a function of the riser design than anything going on in the limbs. Once again, Hoyt has really designed a great series of risers. But I'm not convinced the limbs are any better than the best ILF limbs available, or that the attachment system offers any real advantage over the tried-and-true ILF system. 

The competition statistics simply don't prove this to be true yet. Perhaps someday, but not yet. And when you factor in the influence of sponsorships and endorsements and staff shooters, it will always skew the data in that direction.

John


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## Bob Furman (May 16, 2012)

chrstphr said:


> there is already an adapter on the market for that.
> 
> Chris


Chris,

Who makes an adapter for the Hoyt Formula to adapt any ILF limb?

Robert

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2


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## Blades (Jun 25, 2012)

Bob Furman said:


> Chris,
> 
> Who makes an adapter for the Hoyt Formula to adapt any ILF limb?
> 
> ...


http://www.lancasterarchery.com/uukha-formula-riser-adapter.html


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## kshet26 (Dec 20, 2010)

Be aware that this won't fit most ILF limbs. It's made specifically for the Uukha limbs which are much thinner. It's just a happy coincidence that it also fits a couple of ILF limbs.


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## normlefebvre (Aug 21, 2010)

This is from the lancaster site

• Allows use of Uukha limbs on Hoyt Formula risers
• Adapter is attached to the limb with two screws
• Does not affect weight or length of the limbs
• Only works with Uukha limbs


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## Bob Furman (May 16, 2012)

Blades said:


> http://www.lancasterarchery.com/uukha-formula-riser-adapter.html


I'm aware of these, but they will not allow you to use any ILF limb, only Uukha limbs.

Robert

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2


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## >--gt--> (Jul 1, 2002)

limbwalker said:


> Yet to be proven...
> 
> 
> 
> Again, yet to be proven.


Oh, Jin-hyek is looking over my shoulder and laughing at you right now, John.


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## Blades (Jun 25, 2012)

My apologies gentlemen, I did not know that this was supposed to be for Uukha limbs only. I had seen this posted before but was not aware of it's limitations. 


Sorry for the confusion


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## chrstphr (Nov 23, 2005)

I was not talking about the Uukha adapter. I was talking about this one


http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=1125301

it said it would be on the market in 4-6 weeks. That was in 2010. I assumed it was out by now. 


Chris


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## Warbow (Apr 18, 2006)

>--gt--> said:


> Oh, Jin-hyek is looking over my shoulder and laughing at you right now, John.


Which, it appears, is you saying that you don't have objective, verifiable proof that Formula bows are more accurate.

John notes they are excellent bows, but also notes there isn't proof that they provide superior accuracy over high end ILF bows. If anyone would have proof that the bows provide more inherent accuracy than an ILF bow it would be a senior Hoyt engineer such as yourself. That you don't post any proof is, I'd say, telling. Instead you merely point to a winning archer. That isn't proof that same archer couldn't have or wouldn't have won that same contest with an ILF bow with the same score.

With bows there are many tests that manufacturers can publish, including draw force curves, arrow speed, torsional stability etc. If bow is inherently more accurate you should be able to prove that with comparative, quantitative, independently repeatable testing as well. So, where is it, gt? Where are the verifiable tests and the data that prove that Formula bows are more accurate than ILF bows? If you could prove that Formula bows were objectively more accurate, even if they resulted in an average of a few points you'd sell even more of them. So I'd think you'd be trumpeting such results loud and wide if you had any. Instead you are just making snarky comments to John dodging the issue of actual, objective proof.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

>--gt--> said:


> Oh, Jin-hyek is looking over my shoulder and laughing at you right now, John.


That's fine. But a sample size of one is going to present a pretty challenging statistical analysis. 

Is he going to shoot Vegas this year?


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## Bob Furman (May 16, 2012)

For those interested in talking about a Formula ILF Limb adpter, I ahve started a new thread here:

http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=1943096


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## caspian (Jan 13, 2009)

HikerDave said:


> The topic of an adapter has been discussed here before. Someone designed an adapter but didn't bring the adapter to market because it was too costly to produce.


and because there's little point to it.

if you want to shoot paralever, do it. if you want to shoot ILF, there are large numbers of very suitable risers out there. why you'd buy a riser with a proprietary limb pocket and then fit it with adapters, I have no idea.



>--gt--> said:


> Oh, Jin-hyek is looking over my shoulder and laughing at you right now, John.


that's OK, Michele and Mauro no doubt have a point of view on the subject too. ;-)


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

> that's OK, Michele and Mauro no doubt have a point of view on the subject too. ;-)


Or we could just ask Viktor Ruban which system he won his medals with?

Unfortunately, I think the point I was trying to make was overlooked in the interest of brand loyalty. My point was that it's not been proven that the paralever system is any more accurate than the ILF system. Not that it hasn't been proven AS accurate. It has. But claims that it is more accurate cannot yet be backed up by any real science. But then hey, whoever said marketing was based on facts, right? ha, ha.

The problem with paying your friends is that you can no longer know whether they are telling you the truth. 

John


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## Viper1 (Aug 21, 2003)

Gents - 

Here's my take on the "para-lever" system / mechanism. 

The mechanics are fairly simple. By making the limb bolt to pivot distance longer, you in theory make the working limb longer, since again - in theory - the limb can flex not only from the pivot to string nock, but also from the pivot to the limb bolt. I believe the idea was taken from certain compound limb designs where it may actually work (don't know). The problem is that, in general the compound limbs are a lot shorter that recurve limbs and the two measurements (bolt to pivot and pivot to string/cam) are proportionally closer together. With the longer working part of a recurve limb, the effect (IMHO) is minimal to nil. 

The following is supposition. So, why does Hoyt try to employ the same mechanism from a compound limb to a recurve limb? Is it because it has a greater potential for smoothness and performance or that Hoyt has been starting to realize that people were using their risers and anyone else's limbs - for good reason? For a long time Hoyt risers were pretty much the way to go for mainstream OR shooters, their limbs on the other hand, seems to have been becoming more and more over priced and middle of the road performance wise, so what's better than forcing people to buy a proprietary limb to fit a proprietary riser? The next step would be to begin reducing the number and quality of the more common (ILF) riser coupling, hummm...

BTW - this wasn't the first time Hoyt pull a stunt like this. The Axis riser in 2000 (+/-) used a thumb screw instead of a dove tail, but then the limbs were easily convertible with INCLUDED hardware. In that case, it wasn't a bad idea, again, just not necessary. 

Overall I agree with John, I too have shot the formula bows and while good are no better than equally (or even lower) priced ILF systems. Personally, I'll stay with my old Hoyt risers and Win&Win or SF limbs. With OR or stickbows in generally, it's still the Indian and not the bow. 

Viper1 out.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Tony, I still believe the Axis limb attachment system is the best system ever designed. But people need to realize all we're talking about here is hardware. Pick a system and go shoot. If you want to play the brand loyalty game, go watch Nascar. They do it better. 

John


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## Viper1 (Aug 21, 2003)

John -

A lot of people say that, and it may well be, but the fact of the matter is it didn't last. The differences, if any couldn't be proven in practice. 
Yes, it's just hardware, and for most of us, it's never going to matter. 
Fact of the matter is that Hoyt dropped on ball on limbs a number of years ago, and followed suit by doing the same with risers more recently. 

Agree with NASCAR, but I'm more of an NHRA kinda guy ... LOL

Viper1 out.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

> Yes, it's just hardware, and for most of us, it's never going to matter.


I'd say for all of us, it doesn't matter. The top qualification scores in London were still a mixed bag. Qualification scores are more a test of accuracy IMO than matchplay, where the mental game (and some luck) generally rules the day. 

John


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## Borderbows (Apr 4, 2009)

viper. if the working limb is longer then the mass is higher. moving more mass requires more energy.
but i read a post and verified the scale of measurement in the flex. i checked it my self here too.
but the amount to deflection at the mid section is approx 0.07mm on a 38lbs set of limbs.
so lets say that the limb bolt adjustment is 6 turns of a 1.25mm thread pitch to give 10% weight adjustement... the 0.07mm of deflection will show up as an inesignificant change to the dfc. so much so that i personally would discount any paralever effect.
the other one is that if the same bolt is used from ilf to formula bows. then the adjustment range is going to be 40% less on the paralever system.
the advantage that i can see is that any tollerance issues in the connection between of limb to riser would be less problematic. but the shim system also become more detailed... 
the 40% reduction in limb weight adjustement would mean that draw weight changes would be more accurate. but we cant get the marked draw weight of our f4 on our 27" riser. even tight down they are still half a pound under. not sure were the accuracy is there? gt?


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## caspian (Jan 13, 2009)

limbwalker said:


> The problem with paying your friends is that you can no longer know whether they are telling you the truth.


I could not agree more. Formula obviously works. does it work *better* than ILF? debatable, marketing aside - including attempts to trumpet every win as apparent "proof" while ignoring every loss. what any objective observer objects to is the one-eyed tubthumping. the informed consumer isn't stupid.

I think I will stick by my basic belief that a good professional archer will shoot anything they're paid to, as long as it doesn't hold them back. Dave Cousins shooting a brand formerly known primarily for producing a peep suspected of damaging strings versus a certain previous sponsor is an example.


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## Viper1 (Aug 21, 2003)

Sid -

I think we're saying the same thing. Yes, the greater the mass the more energy required and stored. However, the difference in limb length due to the "para-lever" arrangement on a recurve, just isn't that significant. 

Viper1 out.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

> I think I will stick by my basic belief that a good professional archer will shoot anything they're paid to, as long as it doesn't hold them back.


Yup.

What brand paddle was it that Forrest Gump "liked" so much... 

The obvious advantage to Hoyt's paralever attachment system, to me, is the vibration dampening qualities of the extended limb pocket or "bridge" design between the dovetail dowel and the limb bolt. It clearly works to do that, as the Formula bows I've shot have all been very quiet, vibration free and pleasant to shoot. But I've also had ILF bows that were just as quiet and vibration free. You just have to pick and choose if that's what you're after, and each of us wants a different feel and sound in our bows.

More accurate? I guess the potential is there for a tighter alignment tolerance because of the increased distance between the dovetail and fork, but was this a problem before? I don't think so. Too many records are held with ILF bows to question that system's accuracy.

John


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

OMG. I just realized I reached the 7,000 post mark. Good grief.

When does the golf season start? LOL.

John


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## spangler (Feb 2, 2007)

limbwalker said:


> OMG. I just realized I reached the 7,000 post mark. Good grief.
> 
> When does the golf season start? LOL.
> 
> John


OMG, Limbwalker just said, "OMG"


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## Borderbows (Apr 4, 2009)

limbwalker said:


> Yup.
> 
> What brand paddle was it that Forrest Gump "liked" so much...
> 
> ...


you might want to consider that it has one of the lightest pocket mass's on the market. If the riser is prone to wobbling like a noodle under closure then the pocket mass will help shake your hand or not.
i wouldnt put it down to the limb butt. more the limb pocket.
Make a skelliton pocket ILF and watch the Vibration drop too.

Also if you have 0.07mm of movement in the mid point of the bridge. then put a short rod on that. i can see vibration increasing. as the limbs rapid movement will be hindered by a stab in the limb mount.


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## shootthewhatnow (Jan 29, 2008)

Paralever (Patent pending)

A process by which a customer is (essentially) forced to buy expensive (if they want quality) limbs specifically from Hoyt Inc. 


All kidding aside... I would love to see the equations that prove this is a better system, and I'd also love to see Hoyt open this technology to the rest of the manufacturing community "in the name of the good of the sport"... until then I'm forced to see this as a (likely) monetarily driven evolution of ILF.

IMHO... I'm with Limbwalker... I wanna see the "proven".


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## Bob Furman (May 16, 2012)

shootthewhatnow said:


> Paralever (Patent pending)
> 
> A process by which a customer is (essentially) forced to buy expensive (if they want quality) limbs specifically from Hoyt Inc.
> 
> ...


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## Bob Furman (May 16, 2012)

limbwalker said:


> OMG. I just realized I reached the 7,000 post mark. Good grief.
> 
> When does the golf season start? LOL.
> 
> John


And *2,674* have visited your profile too. Don't you feel specila?


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

That's kinda creepy actually! LOL! I don't feel special so much as maybe stalked? ha, ha. I see a break from AT in my future. Probably about the time I dust my golf clubs off


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## Warbow (Apr 18, 2006)

limbwalker said:


> That's kinda creepy actually! LOL! I don't feel special so much as maybe stalked? ha, ha. I see a break from AT in my future. Probably about the time I dust my golf clubs off


2,674 is nothing compared to the number of folks who saw you shooting at the olympics on tv. If you want anonymity you could try being dull, boring and without talent, but somehow that doesn't seem like it would suit. 

EDIT: Nope, that won't work either. I just checked my own profile page and I've had *2,412* visits :tongue:


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## Norman2 (Aug 4, 2012)

*Limbwalker Traying out Sky Riser I think*

Hi, Here is a photo that John probably doesn't remember. To me, he is the most knowledgeable poster in
this forum and I always follow his advice. I am his number one fan. Regards







Norman2


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Norman, thanks. Actually, I remember that photo well. It was one of my best days in archery. 1st, because my daughter Allison was shooting that tournament (TX state field) with me, 2nd because I was surrounded by great friends, and 3rd because I set two state records in two days, on my very first field event after switching limbs and arrows mid-weekend.  Lots of archery "logistics" were put in to motion that weekend. If you want the full story, ask Rick Stonebraker or Michael Hojnacki about it someday. 

John


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## Norman2 (Aug 4, 2012)

Hi John, You are welcome. Don' go golfing just yet, it is too cold and we still need your advice on AT. Regards
Norman


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## shootthewhatnow (Jan 29, 2008)

Bob Furman said:


> Is "Paralever" really patent pending? I was just curious, because I think BMW had a patent on that back in the 80's. Of course unrelated to the archery industry. I wonder if the USPO will allow to identical Patent names on different products even though one has expired????
> 
> I do love my HPX, but I have to agree with Viper, Limbwalker and others, it's not really about the equipment. Look at all the world records and top scores with ILF setups.
> 
> I have always wondered if the people on the USAT could shoot any gear, what their choices would be.



I honestly don't know Bob... but the likelyhood of Hoyt leaving this "innovation" un-patented is not a bet I'd take.


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## HikerDave (Jan 1, 2011)

shootthewhatnow said:


> I honestly don't know Bob... but the likelyhood of Hoyt leaving this "innovation" un-patented is not a bet I'd take.


20110303203 is the patent application by Doug Denton for a stabilizer bushing on a bow limb, in about 3000 words. I didn't find a similar patent application for the formula fitting itself, which is just wider spacing.


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## shootthewhatnow (Jan 29, 2008)

HikerDave said:


> 20110303203 is the patent application by Doug Denton for a stabilizer bushing on a bow limb, in about 3000 words. I didn't find a similar patent application for the formula fitting itself, which is just wider spacing.


huh... shoulda taken the bet.... 

That does beg the question however... Why hasn't another major manufacturer adopted this system, if it's significantly better?


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

The option of lengthening the limb pocket was always there. It's impossible to believe that Earl Hoyt Jr. and the team that first designed the ILF system didn't discuss the best distance from the fork to the dovetail bushing to settle on. They settled on what they settled on, no doubt for a reason. I'm sure had they thought their final configuration wasn't sufficient, they would have lengthened it or changed it in some way. The Hoyt PM TD series had already gone through numerous revisions in just the previous few years, so another revision would really not have been that big of a deal at the time. The fact that the original ILF dimensions went unchanged for 30 years tells me the dimensions they settled on worked just fine and left nobody wanting for more.

Again, I see the advancement of the Formula series in the riser, not the limbs, and not really even the limb attachment system. That narrow "bridge" design between the bolt and dovetail alignment dowel is what's making the difference between the Formula bows and their old ILF bows.

John


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## shootthewhatnow (Jan 29, 2008)

limbwalker said:


> Again, I see the advancement of the Formula series in the riser, not the limbs, and not really even the limb attachment system. That narrow "bridge" design between the bolt and dovetail alignment dowel is what's making the difference between the Formula bows and their old ILF bows.
> 
> John


How so John? We've all seen the bows (if we wished to) but I've yet to hear someone consistently use a solid descriptive word to say how the new design is different.

Stronger? Stiffer? Lighter? Straighter?


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## Seattlepop (Dec 8, 2003)

limbwalker said:


> The option of lengthening the limb pocket was always there. It's impossible to believe that Earl Hoyt Jr. and the team that first designed the ILF system didn't discuss the best distance from the fork to the dovetail bushing to settle on. They settled on what they settled on, no doubt for a reason. I'm sure had they thought their final configuration wasn't sufficient, they would have lengthened it or changed it in some way. The Hoyt PM TD series had already gone through numerous revisions in just the previous few years, so another revision would really not have been that big of a deal at the time. The fact that the original ILF dimensions went unchanged for 30 years tells me the dimensions they settled on worked just fine and left nobody wanting for more.
> 
> Again, I see the advancement of the Formula series in the riser, not the limbs, and not really even the limb attachment system. *That narrow "bridge" design between the bolt and dovetail alignment dowel* is what's making the difference between the Formula bows and their old ILF bows.
> 
> John


If I understand it correctly you should'nt see these marks with the new Formula designs, yes/no?


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## chrstphr (Nov 23, 2005)

i havent seen marks like that since my G3 days with the old hoyt dovetail dowels. The lower marks bisecting the button, i use to faintly get. I certainly have never gotten those higher ones your arows point to. I dont get those with my Areotec riser and Mk Korea ILF limbs ( and also didnt get those with my Samick Extreme ILF limbs. 

Those marks look like the limb is biting into the back of the riser pocket. are your limb bolts backed all the way out? cant see how your limbs are crushing against the riser for those high marks. I dont think thats good for the shot or the limb. 


Chris


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

> Those marks look like the limb is biting into the back of the riser pocket. are your limb bolts backed all the way out?


Same question I was going to ask...


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## Seattlepop (Dec 8, 2003)

chrstphr said:


> i havent seen marks like that since my G3 days with the old hoyt dovetail dowels. The lower marks bisecting the button, i use to faintly get. I certainly have never gotten those higher ones your arows point to. I dont get those with my Areotec riser and Mk Korea ILF limbs ( and also didnt get those with my Samick Extreme ILF limbs.
> 
> Those marks look like the limb is biting into the back of the riser pocket. are your limb bolts backed all the way out? cant see how your limbs are crushing against the riser for those high marks. I dont think thats good for the shot or the limb.
> 
> ...


Those are creases in the clear coat and do not affect performance in any way. All my limbs, three brands, have marks of varying degrees. If you look through the past dozen or so limb ads you will see that the majority have marks in those areas. Yes, these in particular were shot backed out to the max so are more pronounced, but zero negative affect on performance. In fact those G3's are still my favorite. 

I asked the question because it seems a design by-product of the Formula is the elimination of the sharp limb pocket edges that can leave marks like those.


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## Borderbows (Apr 4, 2009)

HikerDave said:


> 20110303203 is the patent application by Doug Denton for a stabilizer bushing on a bow limb, in about 3000 words. I didn't find a similar patent application for the formula fitting itself, which is just wider spacing.


yeah, but the patents are not really worth much when all it takes is this:
here's one of a 1978 Green Horn Phoenix:


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## chrstphr (Nov 23, 2005)

Seattlepop said:


> If you look through the past dozen or so limb ads you will see that the majority have marks in those areas. Yes, these in particular were shot backed out to the max so are more pronounced, but zero negative affect on performance. In fact those G3's are still my favorite.


while i have seen marks running thru the button on the limbs, and had them myself on my G3s , I have never seen marks higher up like the ones on your limbs. even in used limb classifieds. i think John also has not seen any high marks like those. I dont think those are normal wear marks. 

I guess i learn something new about Hoyt risers and limbs. 

Chris


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## Seattlepop (Dec 8, 2003)

chrstphr said:


> while i have seen marks running thru the button on the limbs, and had them myself on my G3s , I have never seen marks higher up like the ones on your limbs. even in used limb classifieds. i think John also has not seen any high marks like those. I dont think those are normal wear marks.
> 
> I guess i learn something new about Hoyt risers and limbs.
> 
> Chris



The marks alongside the bushing, or button, is probably from the dowel system, but I think the G3 also may have been thicker at the bushing than usual which caused the more pronounced marking in that area since my other brand limbs show contact, but very, very faint. Here is a G3 ad that shows similar markings to mine: http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=1938018&highlight=limbs

You need to look more closely for the "high" marks if you can't see them. I assume these are made by the limb pocket edge and can be seen in varying degrees in all the ads linked below. I think there are three brands represented. The pictures are not all great, but you can see wear marks. 

http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=1944522&highlight=limbs
http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=1945626&highlight=limbs
http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=1944332&highlight=limbs
http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=1940227&highlight=limbs
http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=1940212&highlight=limbs

No question that marks in this area will be aggravated by shooting the limbs turned out to the max which I mostly do. And again, it seems the Formula system will avoid this all together since the paralever has no sharp limb pocket edges like the old ILF system.


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## chrstphr (Nov 23, 2005)

i learn something new everyday. I had never seen the high marks. I guess i never shot with the limb bolts all the way out, so i never had them on my G3s. 

Chris


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## Seattlepop (Dec 8, 2003)

chrstphr said:


> i *learn something new everyday*. I had never seen the high marks. I guess i never shot with the limb bolts all the way out, so i never had them on my G3s.
> 
> Chris


You too? - I've been a member here for 10 years and often feel I'm just beginning to scratch the surface, especially compared to the institutional knowledge base we have here. I've learned from you too so keep 'em coming.


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