# Win win NS limbs with graphene



## stick monkey (Mar 9, 2015)

Wondering how many people have tried the new graphene limbs and what your conclusions are....are they significantly faster...higher sight marks...what is the draw cycle like....smooth as butter...very torsionally stable or on the flip side... tell us anything that you don't like about them...just want some real world knowledge and experience with the new limbs. Thanks for sharing.


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## Stephen Morley (Aug 11, 2016)

Wonder how much actually goes into the limb as it's an insanely expensive material at the moment.


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## theminoritydude (Feb 11, 2013)

Graphene foam is real. The grade of graphene used for batteries and other high end applications are of a different grade.


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## erose (Aug 12, 2014)

I just got a set. Due to a persistent rotator cuff injury, I had to drop weight, and so I bought a set of 34lb limbs, where before I was shooting Kaya K3 38lb limbs. I point this out because I don't want to give the impression that I'm comparing these to other high end limbs. The reason why I chose these limbs was from a review that claimed that these limbs were a fast limb compared to other comparable limb as I still want the ability to hit 70m & 80yd without messing with moving my sight in and hopefully could still use a set of arrows I already owned.

Anyway, I've had these limbs for less than a week so far so take that into account.

1) Speed: I would say they are fast for their poundage. With the K3s which are carbon/foam limbs, I got a big boost in speed from the glass/wood limbs I shot before them. With 38lb K3s I could use either 600 VAPs w/110gr points or 500 VAPs w/140gr points. I am now using VAP 600VAP with 130gr points. At 70m with K3 500/140gr my sight mark was 81.5. With the NS's 600/130gr arrows my sight mark is 78. Now this isn't comparing apples to apples, but dropping 4lbs and being in the neighborhood, is significant I think. I also think that I could tune the same arrows as I was using before, but I wanted a different FOC and I really wasn't planning on comparing limbs anyway.

2) smoothness of draw: They feel good, but really haven't notice a difference between them and K3s before my rotator cuff problems, but I feel the K3s were pretty smooth already.

3) Stability: At the beginning of this year I was shooting the K3 limbs with a GILLO G1 riser. Had huge issues with keeping the string off my arm. In fact started shooting 2 fingers which helped. Recently upgraded my rider to an INNO CXT primarily due to the desire to reduce weight on my shoulder that I am having issues with. Anyway after changing risers I was able to go back to a 3 finger tab, and I went from hitting my arm probably 50% with 2 finger release to about 25% with a 3 finger release. Now with the NS limbs it has significantly dropped even more. Out of the 150-200 arrows I shot so far, I haven't noticed this being an issue. I have grazed my arm guard a few times, but I believe it is on the rebound, because the arrows went into the same grouping with the rest of the arrows.

Anyway, I hope this helps.



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## anorphirith (Apr 17, 2017)

erose said:


> I just got a set. Due to a persistent rotator cuff injury, I had to drop weight, and so I bought a set of 34lb limbs, where before I was shooting Kaya K3 38lb limbs. I point this out because I don't want to give the impression that I'm comparing these to other high end limbs. The reason why I chose these limbs was from a review that claimed that these limbs were a fast limb compared to other comparable limb as I still want the ability to hit 70m & 80yd without messing with moving my sight in and hopefully could still use a set of arrows I already owned.
> 
> Anyway, I've had these limbs for less than a week so far so take that into account.
> 
> ...


great write up! you sold me on the kaya's haha


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## GoldArcher403 (Jun 25, 2014)

Stephen Morley said:


> Wonder how much actually goes into the limb as it's an insanely expensive material at the moment.


I spoke to a Win&Win rep at Arizona Cup. He said he couldnt tell me much but basically there is a "layer" of graphene in the limb, but it's a nano-meter thick or so. In other words, super friken tiny.


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## stick monkey (Mar 9, 2015)

I don't think that the graphene is supposed to be the selling point. I'm just curious in general about the NS limbs performance...I loved both the ex powers and primes...the graphene just shows that they are evolving.


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## fader (May 17, 2010)

I've been shooting them for a couple of months. The first thing I noticed when I got them was how light they are. They're noticeably lighter than either the Quattros or ExPrimes that I owned prior. Not surprisingly they are also faster. I've got no chrono readings to wow you with. But, my sight markings improved and I've had to move to a stiffer arrow. 

I'm still shaking off a little rust after a year and a half layoff from shooting. So, I don't really have anything reliably insightful to say regarding feel or stability. Not yet at least. Prior to my layoff I was shooting PB's with my Quattros so I'm curious to see if I'll be able to get there with the new W&W's.


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## erose (Aug 12, 2014)

anorphirith said:


> great write up! you sold me on the kaya's haha


My K3s I think we're pretty good limbs. I didn't think they were holding me back until I injured my rotator cuff. I don't think you can go wrong with them for an intermediate limb. I do believe from what I have experienced so far that the NS limbs are better performing.

Yesterday, I shot my personal best at 70m, and I haven't fully tuned my bow as of yet.


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## erose (Aug 12, 2014)

fader said:


> I've been shooting them for a couple of months. The first thing I noticed when I got them was how light they are. They're noticeably lighter than either the Quattros or ExPrimes that I owned prior. Not surprisingly they are also faster. I've got no chrono readings to wow you with. But, my sight markings improved and I've had to move to a stiffer arrow.
> 
> I'm still shaking off a little rust after a year and a half layoff from shooting. So, I don't really have anything reliably insightful to say regarding feel or stability. Not yet at least. Prior to my layoff I was shooting PB's with my Quattros so I'm curious to see if I'll be able to get there with the new W&W's.


Just to add to fader's post. I did weigh the NS limbs and compared them to my K3s and yes each NS limb was about 2oz lighter than the K3. 

They do have a slicker design and a slighter tighter curve.


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## chase128 (May 29, 2015)

I have a set as well, been shooting them far a couple months now. I moved from a set of Uukha EX1s (EVO2) to these. Both sets are 36 longs, and set to around 43" OTF. (~43.5 on the Uukhas, ~42.5 on the NS, details below) This comparison was done on a Hoyt Epik using 600 spine NPX arrows with spin wings and 110 grain points.

For smoothness at the clicker (30" draw), the Uukhas still wins, but the NS are smoother then several other limbs I have pulled (noticeably smoother than K-Storm, Ex-Primes, etc . .) This can be felt in the stronger preload at the beginning of the draw though if you are sensitive to that.

For forgiveness, I think the NS are a little more punishing for a poor release, but the groups seemed tighter when I wasn't shooting poorly. On a good day with well executed shots, the NS seems to be a tac driver, but on a crappy day feel I could fudge a few more not great shots into the gold with the Uukhas. My 18m scores recently have been a few points higher with the NS.

For torsional stability (inaccurately measured by me aggressively attempting to twist the limb), the Uukhas are still noticeably stiffer, but the NS are easily the most torsionally stiff conventional limb I have seen. This is compared to the other top offerings from W&W, Kaya, and Hoyt. I spent a lot of time at vegas trying to get a feel for whose limbs were stiffer. (The booth service guys approved this, offering for me to try to crank the limbs to prove how stiff they are.)

For speed the NS wins easily, I have no specific speeds right now, but my 90m sight mark (CA loves their FITAs) climbed enough that my sight bar only needs to be brought in two increments (on an Axcel) instead of four on the Ex1s. Both of these were sighted with the same arrows, and the bolts were 1.5 turns more out on the NS's. Please note that these were tested against the Ex1s, not vx-1000 x-curve evo2s. I have a feeling that there would be much less of a notable speed difference between the vx-1000 and the NS then there was between my EX1. 

For tuning, the Uukhas can run a slightly weaker arrow, NS needs a bit stiffer. I brought the weight down a bit and adjusted the plunger to get my same arrows to tune. I shot the Ex1s 1 turn out, and the NS's are 2.5ish. This is most likely because the NS are so light/fast.

For fit and finish the NS are among the nicest I have seen. They blow the Uukha out of the water. Those that do have Uukha know that that outer finish layer gets a white wear tint cloud nearly immediately in the pocket contact areas, and occasionally has some fit issues with risers that have larger ILF dowels. The Uukha's are a great limb, but a bit more effort could be put into the pocket area to make them wear better. The NS are a whole different fish. Matte finish on the shooter side for no glare when shooting, glossy on the sight side to show off the limbs, and a very nice secure feeling dovetail button (My Uukha ones came loose semi often), and the coat on both sides in the pocket area seems pretty resilient as well.

I like the NS, and will continue shooting them until I can test them against the 2018 line from Uukha.


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## fader (May 17, 2010)

chase128 said:


> For forgiveness, I think the NS are a little more punishing for a poor release, but the groups seemed tighter when I wasn't shooting poorly. On a good day with well executed shots, the NS seems to be a tac driver, but on a crappy day feel I could fudge a few more not great shots into the gold with the Uukhas. My 18m scores recently have been a few points higher with the NS.


I'd agree with this. With my Quattros I felt that a bad release might still get me in the red (18m at 40 cm target) as long as my bow arm remained strong. Not so with the NS's. They're forgiving up to a point. But, flat out bad releases are out in the 5 ring.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

> But, my sight markings improved and I've had to move to a stiffer arrow.


At some point, I have to wonder when it's worth it to go to a "faster" or more aggressive limb. I'm sure someone has studied this, but if you have to move up to an arrow that's 20 grains heavier to achieve a tune, it's likely that you aren't going to gain any speed. In fact you may lose some. Surely there is an "optimum" point for every archer where they are shooting an arrow of reasonable weight at a good speed, and a limb that helps them achieve that. I don't know what that is, but if I had to go from 410 X10's to 380's back in the day, my arrows would have been in the 425 grain range (or more) and my sight marks would not have improved at all. I trimmed off the back of my 410's specifically so that I didn't have to go to 380's, due to the weight.

Now, in a few rare instances, the stiffer arrow is actually lighter - as is the case with the 670 A/C/E vs. the 720. The 670 is actually the lighter arrow. So a set of limbs that required the 670's to tune would be an advantage. But those examples are very rare.


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## fader (May 17, 2010)

limbwalker said:


> At some point, I have to wonder when it's worth it to go to a "faster" or more aggressive limb. I'm sure someone has studied this, but if you have to move up to an arrow that's 20 grains heavier to achieve a tune, it's likely that you aren't going to gain any speed. In fact you may lose some. Surely there is an "optimum" point for every archer where they are shooting an arrow of reasonable weight at a good speed, and a limb that helps them achieve that. I don't know what that is, but if I had to go from 410 X10's to 380's back in the day, my arrows would have been in the 425 grain range (or more) and my sight marks would not have improved at all. I trimmed off the back of my 410's specifically so that I didn't have to go to 380's, due to the weight.
> 
> Now, in a few rare instances, the stiffer arrow is actually lighter - as is the case with the 670 A/C/E vs. the 720. The 670 is actually the lighter arrow. So a set of limbs that required the 670's to tune would be an advantage. But those examples are very rare.


This is how a $700 investment turns into a $1100 one. I actually bought the limbs with the intention of dropping poundage by a couple lbs. I figured that my 650's, which were just slightly weak for my Quattros at 38#, would work fine at 36#. Nope. In fact it wasn't even close. So I did what any self respecting archer would do - I bought more stuff!


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## stick monkey (Mar 9, 2015)

So it would be great if anyone could actually post some real comparison of poundage versus poundage and some chrono numbers...it's pretty obvious that the lighter mass weight of the NS limbs. They are going to gain some speed versus say an wood core ex prime...but is it just the same 2-3 fps that we seein the difference in powers and primes....or is it significantly more.


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## theminoritydude (Feb 11, 2013)

Measure of absolute speed differences is not a complete determination of performance differences. Energy delivery is, and that takes mass into account, among other things like stored potential energy by integration of the Draw Force Curve.

Simply put, this measures the energy efficiency of the system, and tells you the percentage of energy that is delivered onto the target from what you have put into the bow. The difference in percentage between different bows is the measure of performance difference between the bows.


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## Vittorio (Jul 17, 2003)

Michele is shooting with NS limbs same arrows with 1 # less than with Wiavis limbs and vertical stability seems a bit better.


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## airwolfipsc (Apr 2, 2008)

If its not forgiving..its not for me. Maybe the reason Khatuna and Jake still swapping winwin bows.


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## erose (Aug 12, 2014)

My NS limbs so far have been much more forgiving than what I have shot before. But I'm comparing them to the intermediate limbs I have been shooting. There has been more than once that I let an arrow thinking it was going to be a six or at best a seven, and it caught the edge of the nine ring.


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## chang (Sep 16, 2008)

"graphene foam" is a relatively new type of foam material

it is actually graphene filled foam which is lighter than normal air filled foam. there is nothing to do with the strength of the graphene tube or sheet. 

Hoyt used ceramic micro-bean filled foam is actually the same concept.


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## lksseven (Mar 21, 2010)

I watched a video of Jake going through initial setup/tuning with WinWin Nano TFT riser and NS limbs. His arrows shot weak, so he'd unwind the limb bolts; still weak, so he'd unwind limb bolts some more; still weak, repeat. He finally got there, but the noticeable speed increase of the NS limbs on his existing arrows surprised him. 

Compared to the WiaWis, and Quattros I shot before the NS limbs: the NS limbs are lighter mass weight than either; they are faster than both (especially faster than the Quattros); they are more stable/forgiving than both (especially the WiaWis); they are smoother through the clicker than both. Better looking, too!


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## 10willwin (Jun 24, 2016)

My Bow, bevor the TFT, was a Hoyt Prodigy RX 27/ short Foam X Tour 36. This Bow is a Beast  Shoot fine, need more Weight at the Stabs. But the Feeling said i pull it " in a Wall". At Full Draw, 28,7, for me it was rock hard at the End. My Bareshaft is at 18m 35 - 40 cm on the left. I like the BS on left Side. Than change to the TFT. NS Limbs medium, 32. Same Arrow, same String and Stabs, less Weight. This Bow is for me a Dream, pulls very easy and evenly. No Vibration! And, the BS lands on the left. But, at 10 cm  I shoot 90m with a 32 lbs Bow, the NPX with 110 gr. Point. At 60m the Sight is more than 5 cm over the Arrow. I am 55, and this Bow is a Way for easy shooting and nevertheless good results. Please sorry for written, English is not my preferred language.


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## Black46 (Oct 16, 2013)

lksseven said:


> Compared to the WiaWis, and Quattros I shot before the NS limbs: the NS limbs are lighter mass weight than either; they are faster than both (especially faster than the Quattros); they are more stable/forgiving than both (especially the WiaWis); they are smoother through the clicker than both. Better looking, too!


Larry, have you scaled them? How do they compare to the marked weight?

Paul


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## lksseven (Mar 21, 2010)

Hi Paul. No, haven't done that (everything takes longer than it used to!). I will try to make a point to DW with bolts at both extremes and report back. 

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## bahboric (Aug 22, 2013)

I recently got a pair of NS limbs and the first thing I did was measure them to compare them with my WIAWIS wood limbs. I have a 29.75" AMO draw length. (I believe my limb bolts are 2.75 out on top, 3.25 out on bottom, on a Inno Max riser)
With 30 lb WIAWIS limbs, I pulled 35 lbs
With 32 lb NS limbs, I pulled 37 lbs
With 34 lb WIAWIS limbs, I pulled 41 lbs
(I've wondered if the 34 lb limbs are simply mismarked, given the actual draw weight)
I realize this isn't measured at 28", but maybe it will help.


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## Black46 (Oct 16, 2013)

lksseven said:


> Hi Paul. No, haven't done that (everything takes longer than it used to!). I will try to make a point to DW with bolts at both extremes and report back.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk


I've got a birthday coming up...


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## lksseven (Mar 21, 2010)

Paul, here are some measurements ...
28.75" dl
32lb med WinWin NS limbs
BH 8-5/16"

Bolts all the way in ... 38.2 lb

5 revs out (from all in) ... 33.7 lb (bottom of limb just out of sight from side view of )limb pocket 

Can turn out another 9 turns, but start to lose angle to get limb purchase with bolt.

Pushing X10-550 29" c/c 329gn arrow 182fps

So, likely at 28" DL, low setting just about 32lb, and upper range to 36lb


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## ksarcher (May 22, 2002)

Larry,

I did the same drill with 32# and I saw similar numbers +- at 29.25" draw. I shot my 32# at the Senior games with 2 tuns from bottom at 36.8#.


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## lksseven (Mar 21, 2010)

lksseven said:


> Paul, here are some measurements ...
> 28.75" dl
> 32lb med WinWin NS limbs
> BH 8-5/16"
> ...


I accidentally omitted that the 182fps comes at 35.7lb DW otf, 8-5/16" BH

Hi Stan!


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## Black46 (Oct 16, 2013)

Thanks guys, that helps a good bit!

Paul


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## ksarcher (May 22, 2002)

Larry,

What are you string specs? 

Stan


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## lksseven (Mar 21, 2010)

ksarcher said:


> Larry,
> 
> What are you string specs?
> 
> Stan


Item# 8125G , Bundle Size: 2-Bundle , String Colors: Fluorescent Yellow (16 strand) , String Type: Endless Loop , Serving Type: 62XS Serving , Serving Size: 62xs .021 (center serving 7-1/8" long) , Serving Colors: 62xs black , Actual String Length: 65-3/8"


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## theminoritydude (Feb 11, 2013)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hFUOsZ0LSkQ

If anyone is interested or has unanswered questions.


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