# Hoyt RX4 vs PSE Carbon Stealth Mach 1



## MELLY-MEL (Dec 22, 2008)

Hoyt is really nice this year. I have not found a pse to shoot yet, butwill in 2 weeks at the Harrisburg show.


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## SilentHero (Aug 7, 2019)

Love my 2018 Stealth, but I wish I had 70# limbs. I run a TightSpot, AAE Prophecy, Option 6, and a MicoHex stabilizer with the dovetail in order to balance out the quiver and such. I run Victory Vap 250’s, Ethics insert/outserts, and cutthroat single bevel for a total weight of 588. The only thing I’m not happy with is my limitation to 60yds because of my arrow weight. Need to look into changing things up a bit with that. I need to be able to hit at 80yds which may require losing my 20 pin, upgrading to the Option 8, going with a lighter arrow, or selling my bow and getting a 70#. Hope this helps. 


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## -bowfreak- (Oct 18, 2006)

treillw said:


> Which bow would you prefer and why? I have some thoughts after shooting the Mach 1 and all three versions of the RX4. I'm curious to hear your thoughts and which one you would rather shoot.
> 
> Some of my observations:
> 
> ...


Speed is a wash. If you were comparing this bow with the RX4 Alpha you would get a speed somewhere between the Ultra and the Turbo. Tuning and staying in tune is not an issue with the Hoyts. Pick which bow you like best.


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## eilermmt (Sep 4, 2019)

Hoyt still has the split yoke at the top which makes tuning easier IMO. PSE has the same "saddle" split bottom buss cable that you referred to with the Hoyt. I shot both the RX4 Ultra and the Mach 1 side by side and really wanted to like the Mach 1 as I have shot PSE for awhile now. The string angle and draw cycle were significantly better in feel for me with the RX4 Ultra. Speed to me is secondary because I shoot 70+ lb and have a 30.5" DL. I walked out with an RX4 and tuned it in no time. Love it


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## Thundersnow (Nov 15, 2014)

Mach 1... both are perfectly fine, but for an "elk hunting" rig, lightweight wins. Definitely do more carrying than shooting!


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## Khearon10 (Sep 10, 2009)

I have the mach 1 coming. I switched from Hoyt to PSE in October when the new evo31 came out. I didnt order the mach 1 until after I shot it. I think its smoother and quieter than the Hoyt. The rx4 ultra is the better shooting of the carbons. Speed number are the same at least with the evo 31 and axius and rx4.


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## blakeman (Dec 7, 2006)

Bump
Tagged


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## sambone (Mar 12, 2014)

Im a fan of the Pse carbons. I had an original Pse carbon air, now have the stealth 33, and I like the Mach 1... Tyring not to order one... wearing down, however.
great for carrying in the mtns all day. Im a fan of the Evolve cams too

I have shot the Hoyts also. Great bows. Just too heavy for me. Id just buy an aluminum bow and save the money because they weight the same.


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## bigbucks170 (Feb 2, 2006)

I ordered a Mach 1 because I love my 33" Stealth SE ....from now on. all my hunting bows will be Carbon .Glad Hoyt was 
very successful with their Carbon bows or I doubt PSE would have got back into making Carbons again ...PSE made a Carbon 
bow in 1996 but I was not able to get one ..really hope PSE sells a ton of Carbons then maybe Bowtech and Mathews will get 
serious about Carbon too ....


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## pamindel (Sep 11, 2019)

Mathews VXR brother!


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## treillw (Jan 13, 2020)

pamindel said:


> Mathews VXR brother!


:chicken01:


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## blakeman (Dec 7, 2006)

pamindel said:


> Mathews VXR brother!


That's not a hoyt or pse. the op was not asking about mathews


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## Mathias (Mar 21, 2005)

I’ve shot both. Both fine bows in their own way.
The Evolve cams are great, but I really enjoy the RX4 draw too.
I wanted a carbon for years now for my hunting use. I wanted the warmth, a cold bow hand simply makes me feel cold, weird I guess, but that’s how it is.
The Hoyt felt better to me when I considered mass weight, the PSE was too light If I was humping mountains maybe it would be different.
I held off on a 3 last year but ordered a 4Alpha, taking a while for it to arrive. No hurry, weather now is rotten.


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## DJO (Dec 5, 2008)

If resale value is a consideration, Hoyt is a better bet. Selling PSE bows on AT classifieds is like selling Obsession or Xpedition, the value plummets when you leave the shop.


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## swampcruiser (Mar 27, 2006)

DJO said:


> If resale value is a consideration, Hoyt is a better bet. Selling PSE bows on AT classifieds is like selling Obsession or Xpedition, the value plummets when you leave the shop.


Dud is gonna change all that....but seriously this is unfortunately truth.


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## Thundersnow (Nov 15, 2014)

pamindel said:


> Mathews VXR brother!


Not an option, but if Mathews built a 3.5ish lb. or less carbon bow I would pay $2500+ in a heartbeat...


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## scott_co (Nov 23, 2017)

Thundersnow said:


> Mach 1... both are perfectly fine, but for an "elk hunting" rig, lightweight wins. Definitely do more carrying than shooting!


To me both cam models are similar in smoothness and performance, but weight is the deciding factor for me. I can't get behind a carbon bow weighing as much as most aluminum bows, so PSE is the easy choice for me.


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## joelsuff (Jan 21, 2020)

I'd go with the Hoyt Ultra personally. Hoyt's are good and always have been. PSE's are garbage and always have been. Never owned a PSE and never will, I've seen way too many of them have too many issues. My Father-in-law owned a brand new PSE for a day last year, after he let the shop owner talk him into one against my advice, and it literally fell apart the first day. He returned it for a Mathews and admitted that he should have listened to me... :smile:


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## Thundersnow (Nov 15, 2014)

joelsuff said:


> I'd go with the Hoyt Ultra personally. Hoyt's are good and always have been. PSE's are garbage and always have been. Never owned a PSE and never will, I've seen way too many of them have too many issues. My Father-in-law owned a brand new PSE for a day last year, after he let the shop owner talk him into one against my advice, and it literally fell apart the first day. He returned it for a Mathews and admitted that he should have listened to me...


10 years ago I would have agreed... maybe even 5... They have stepped it up lately though. I dont know about all this Dudley stuff, but the Mach 1 will get a full workout from me.


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## scott_co (Nov 23, 2017)

joelsuff said:


> I'd go with the Hoyt Ultra personally. Hoyt's are good and always have been. PSE's are garbage and always have been. Never owned a PSE and never will, I've seen way too many of them have too many issues. My Father-in-law owned a brand new PSE for a day last year, after he let the shop owner talk him into one against my advice, and it literally fell apart the first day. He returned it for a Mathews and admitted that he should have listened to me... :smile:


Here is some sound, open minded feedback...thanks for the input!


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## SDguy (Jun 20, 2005)

Fairly sure I could be happy with either if I had to. Actually I do not have to as I have a 2017 Hoyt CD34 that I am still very pleased with. See someone has started a thread dare I say arguing agents older bows everyone draws the line where there comfort zone steers them and currently i feel Ill still be very happy with my 2017 CD34 when 2027 rolls around. Lot of good bows will tempt me between now and then I am sure. Yet the CD34 will still be getting her done in style.

I would be lying if I said I did not have interest in either the Hoyt RX4 or PSE Carbon Stealth Mach 1 I honestly fear trying Either as they are out of my budget.


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## Keith t (Oct 31, 2008)

Now that Dudley shoots for PSE......I'd get the Mach 1:mg:


Seriously, I shot the Mach 1, its a great bow.


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## tutone500 (Feb 19, 2009)

I have shot and owned way too many bows and all had thing I liked and hated. After shooting an Alphamax that was garbage, it took a long time to reconsider shooting a hoyt again. Was looking at buying another hoyt when the carbon Defiant came out but so many people complaining about tuning issues on it. Since then they fixed it.
As for PSE the evlove cam with 90% let off, it is nice. Resale sucks but if you buy used its awesome. Personally I keep bouncing back and forth on Mathews and Elites but PSE and Bowtech have great bows also. I still go shoot all of them before I decide. The best thing you can do is buy both :wink:


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## sthrogmartin (Apr 28, 2019)

joelsuff said:


> I'd go with the Hoyt Ultra personally. Hoyt's are good and always have been. PSE's are garbage and always have been. Never owned a PSE and never will, I've seen way too many of them have too many issues. My Father-in-law owned a brand new PSE for a day last year, after he let the shop owner talk him into one against my advice, and it literally fell apart the first day. He returned it for a Mathews and admitted that he should have listened to me...


When you say PSE’s are garbage, I’m curious which one you shot (or owned) and what was it that you didn’t like about it? How did it compare to the Hoyt? Can’t even bring the Mathews into this conversation because the OP was comparing two Carbon bows.


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## sthrogmartin (Apr 28, 2019)

I’ve shot all three RX4’s at the shop and I actually bought the Mach 1. Probably the deciding factor was a happy medium on ATA with the Mach 1. It’s 32”....little longer than the Alpha and shorter than the Ultra. 

I like the Hoyt’s and will probably own one at some point this summer. But since owning the Mach 1, it has not disappointed. It’s shooting much faster than advertised IBO and dead in the hand with my accessories. It holds steady and is a pleasure to shoot. I have changed the stock HL mods (80-90%) to LL (65-75%) and gained about 8 FPS with it set at 75% letoff. I also tried the FL mods and gained 10fps (similar to the RX4 turbo). Calculated IBO with my arrow with the LL mods is 345....that’s as good as any comparable hunting bow.

I’ve owned a couple RX3 Ultras and they are a pleasure to shoot. Honestly, they are both great bows, can’t go wrong either way. But PSE has raised the benchmark this year. I wouldn’t rate either one better than the other.


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## ontarget7 (Dec 30, 2009)

Grip, tuning, and forgiveness go to Hoyt for me. Both great bows thou


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## sambone (Mar 12, 2014)

joelsuff said:


> I'd go with the Hoyt Ultra personally. Hoyt's are good and always have been. PSE's are garbage and always have been. Never owned a PSE and never will, I've seen way too many of them have too many issues. My Father-in-law owned a brand new PSE for a day last year, after he let the shop owner talk him into one against my advice, and it literally fell apart the first day. He returned it for a Mathews and admitted that he should have listened to me... :smile:


this is laughable at best


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## sthrogmartin (Apr 28, 2019)

ontarget7 said:


> Grip, tuning, and forgiveness go to Hoyt for me. Both great bows thou
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


The grip was changed on the Mach 1, its narrower and not as deep....much better feel over the Stealth. And the riser is longer on the Mach 1...promotes a much steadier hold. As for the tuning, my Mach 1 is shooting bullet holes. 
I’m not knocking Hoyt....just curious which bow you’re comparing.


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## ontarget7 (Dec 30, 2009)

sthrogmartin said:


> The grip was changed on the Mach 1, its narrower and not as deep....much better feel over the Stealth. And the riser is longer on the Mach 1...promotes a much steadier hold. As for the tuning, my Mach 1 is shooting bullet holes.
> I’m not knocking Hoyt....just curious which bow you’re comparing.


The Mach 1 


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## The Old Guy (Mar 28, 2017)

I shot both a few days ago. It was the second time shooting the Mach 1 because it is so awesome. I have never been remotely interested in a PSE. I am interested in a carbon bow. It is all subjective, but I thought the RX3 had the best draw of all the 2019's. I cannot say that about the RX4. I am 60# at 30" draw, so your mileage may vary. I thought the PSE's at 90% let off had a bad hump at the end of the cycle. That goes away when set on 80%.

The PSE is almost a pound lighter (the reason for a carbon bow). The grip felt nice to me. Compared to my Vertix, there is some hand shock, or more like a little jump, but not bad. It exceeds IBO and is faster than my Vertix. It looks like the best 2020 carbon bow out there to me.


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## swampcruiser (Mar 27, 2006)

Im dying to shoot a Mach1 - all the shops here are saying another 4-5 weeks before they'll have one. Ive held off on getting a RX4, because of PSE reviews from people I trust, but Im losing patience. Starting to look like a marketing ploy to drive demand.


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## ontarget7 (Dec 30, 2009)

swampcruiser said:


> Im dying to shoot a Mach1 - all the shops here are saying another 4-5 weeks before they'll have one. Ive held off on getting a RX4, because of PSE reviews from people I trust, but Im losing patience. Starting to look like a marketing ploy to drive demand.


I have a guy waiting close to 14 weeks now. 


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## -bowfreak- (Oct 18, 2006)

I'm pretty vanilla in my gear choices. I find a company I like and I stick with it. I have always been partial to Hoyts. I have confidence in them and have reason to change. I have an Ultra on order. 

I am intrigued by a few Bowtech models and a few Mathews bows, but I've never considered a PSE. This will annoy people and I know it's probably based on the past because everyone that shoots them now talks about how great they are, but I see PSE like Bear. I see them as KMart bows. 

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## Chamacat (Apr 11, 2019)

Yep..Still waiting to shoot a Mach 1


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## Red Eye 81 (Feb 4, 2006)

-bowfreak- said:


> I've never considered a PSE. This will annoy people and I know it's probably based on the past because everyone that shoots them now talks about how great they are, but I see PSE like Bear. I see them as KMart bows.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk


Yeah you are right, that is annoying for sure.. you are brainwashed.


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## -bowfreak- (Oct 18, 2006)

Red Eye 81 said:


> Yeah you are right, that is annoying for sure.. you are brainwashed.


Lol. Dudley will make you feel better. 

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## Red Eye 81 (Feb 4, 2006)

I am not a Dudley follower.


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## Gooldylocks (Nov 15, 2018)

-bowfreak- said:


> I'm pretty vanilla in my gear choices. I find a company I like and I stick with it. I have always been partial to Hoyts. I have confidence in them and have reason to change. I have an Ultra on order.
> 
> I am intrigued by a few Bowtech models and a few Mathews bows, but I've never considered a PSE. This will annoy people and I know it's probably based on the past because everyone that shoots them now talks about how great they are, but I see PSE like Bear. I see them as KMart bows.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk


You should try one. The Evoke was my favorite bow last year and the Mach 1 is by far my favorite bow this year. Finishes are really nice, pockets are well machined... there isn't anything KMart about them. Just because a brand makes the (smart) decision to sell multiple lines at various price points and locations doesn't mean you should write them off.


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## RK4 (Oct 4, 2018)

Ive shot all the Hoyts this year. I'm a hoyt guy. Currently have a CD and RX1 Turbo. The best shooting hoyt this year IMO is the Helix Turbo - but I think the #2 cam turbos have been the best shooting hoyts the past 3 years.

That being said, I'm going with Prime Black 1 this year.


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## swampcruiser (Mar 27, 2006)

ontarget7 said:


> I have a guy waiting close to 14 weeks now.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


That is crazy- I heard yesterday they have plenty of risers built but they are waiting on limbs- just seems backwards.


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## PJC15 (Aug 18, 2015)

Shot both and prefer the RX4 platform. Feels more stable and really believe it to tune better and be more foregiving.


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## sambone (Mar 12, 2014)

-bowfreak- said:


> Lol. Dudley will make you feel better.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk


Some people see Hoyt Carbons as Chinese bows... I mean, not me, but some people... Those fellas from "The Hunting Public" crew are all shooting Bear bows. Some of them chose the, not top of the line bow for this year as they thought it felt better. And they seem to stack up the deer with those Kmart quality bows. 

I offer this to the AT community---- Maybe it simply does not even matter what bow you use. Maybe it matters how good you can hunt and shoot..??? 
Just another crazy thought from yours truly


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## -bowfreak- (Oct 18, 2006)

sambone said:


> Some people see Hoyt Carbons as Chinese bows... I mean, not me, but some people... Those fellas from "The Hunting Public" crew are all shooting Bear bows. Some of them chose the, not top of the line bow for this year as they thought it felt better. And they seem to stack up the deer with those Kmart quality bows.
> 
> I offer this to the AT community---- Maybe it simply does not even matter what bow you use. Maybe it matters how good you can hunt and shoot..???
> Just another crazy thought from yours truly


Nope. Not a crazy thought at all. Shoot whatever you are comfortable with. 

I like the Chinese carbons. 

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## SHPoet (Nov 13, 2009)

We sell both Hoyt and PSE carbon bows. These are just my views.....

PSE are lighter by a good bit. The PSE cams still scare me because they are so light. That said I have NEVER seen a PSE cam problem that was not the result of a "user error".

Hoyt are a bit heavier and I like their draw cycle better. I also prefer the grip on the Hoyt.

Six of one, half dozen of the other.


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## SHPoet (Nov 13, 2009)

sambone said:


> *Some people see Hoyt Carbons as Chinese bows... * I mean, not me, but some people... Those fellas from "The Hunting Public" crew are all shooting Bear bows. Some of them chose the, not top of the line bow for this year as they thought it felt better. And they seem to stack up the deer with those Kmart quality bows.
> 
> I offer this to the AT community---- Maybe it simply does not even matter what bow you use. Maybe it matters how good you can hunt and shoot..???
> Just another crazy thought from yours truly


Ask Pete where his sheeting comes from.....


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## bigbucks170 (Feb 2, 2006)

SHPoet said:


> Ask Pete where his sheeting comes from.....


whats your point? and do you have facts ? please post link to your source of information where its coming from


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## Thundersnow (Nov 15, 2014)

Raw aluminum, paint, anodizing chemicals, string material.... these are all raw materials that are not predominantly sourced from the USA...


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## treillw (Jan 13, 2020)

How is the warranty between both companies?


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## spike camp (Jun 2, 2008)

treillw said:


> How is the warranty between both companies?


It’s customer service/support that’s makes the difference in this category...as the actual warranties are similar.


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## pseshooter84 (Jun 9, 2012)

How do you like the newer version of the pse grip compared to the hoyts? 2 years ago I got a hoyt carbon rx-1 mainly because I hated the pse blocky massive 2x4 grip and the hoyt just looks 10X nicer imo. Although the hoyts are much heavier carbon bows but that explains a lot of the reason why they have less vibe and noise.


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## ProXXX (Oct 12, 2010)

PSE=3.5#, Hoyt RX4=3.9#


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## spike camp (Jun 2, 2008)

ProXXX said:


> PSE=3.5#, Hoyt RX4=3.9#


You’ll have to actually weigh the carbon Hoyts to get a correct weight, because their listed weight is not accurate....whatsoever.


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## Gooldylocks (Nov 15, 2018)

ProXXX said:


> PSE=3.5#, Hoyt RX4=3.9#


Closer to 4.9 than 3.9 for the hoyt haha. The alpha is actually about 4.4#. The Mach 1 on the other hand is coming in under 3.5#.


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## scott_co (Nov 23, 2017)

spike camp said:


> You’ll have to actually weigh the carbon Hoyts to get a correct weight, because their listed weight is not accurate....whatsoever.


I have heard this as well. 

I know marketing info gets skewed all of the time by most manufacturers, but weight should be pretty damn simple to get an accurate number.


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## Bourbon Boy (Mar 18, 2013)

I like the cams and finish on the PSE carbon bows better, lightweight bows are not a problem, heavy weight bows are. Stabilizers and adding weights is simple. My Nitrum 34 is about the same weight as a new Hoyt carbon?


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## treillw (Jan 13, 2020)

spike camp said:


> It’s customer service/support that’s makes the difference in this category...as the actual warranties are similar.


Well then, what is the difference in customer service/support between the two companies?


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## treillw (Jan 13, 2020)

pseshooter84 said:


> How do you like the newer version of the pse grip compared to the hoyts? 2 years ago I got a hoyt carbon rx-1 mainly because I hated the pse blocky massive 2x4 grip and the hoyt just looks 10X nicer imo. Although the hoyts are much heavier carbon bows but that explains a lot of the reason why they have less vibe and noise.


I have no problems with the new PSE grip. The older bows... I can see why people would prefer the hoyt over that 2x4 grip.


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## treillw (Jan 13, 2020)

Gooldylocks said:


> Closer to 4.9 than 3.9 for the hoyt haha. The alpha is actually about 4.4#. The Mach 1 on the other hand is coming in under 3.5#.


I haven't weighed them personally, but the Mach 1 is noticeably lighter.


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## spike camp (Jun 2, 2008)

scott_co said:


> I have heard this as well.
> 
> I know marketing info gets skewed all of the time by most manufacturers, but weight should be pretty damn simple to get an accurate number.



I think it was nestle (sp?) that removed everything you could on his Rx4 and it was still over 4 pounds.

It may seem petty, but that kind of blatant misrepresentation (fudging specs) is total BS and I have a tough time getting behind a manufacturer that still pulls this kind of crap in 2020...especially given the series of recent past issues, as well as the cost of these bows.


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## treillw (Jan 13, 2020)

Bourbon Boy said:


> I like the cams and finish on the PSE carbon bows better, lightweight bows are not a problem, heavy weight bows are. Stabilizers and adding weights is simple. My Nitrum 34 is about the same weight as a new Hoyt carbon?


I don't quite get why you would want to go with a carbon bow that weighs as much as an aluminum, other than it keeps your hands warmer - I can think of better ways to keep my hands warm for $1000.


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## ontarget7 (Dec 30, 2009)

treillw said:


> I don't quite get why you would want to go with a carbon bow that weighs as much as an aluminum, other than it keeps your hands warmer - I can think of better ways to keep my hands warm for $1000.


Your math is way off but to answer your question it’s rather simple. 

Light isn’t always better and aluminum vs Carbon is a different feel altogether. 
I will say there is less accessory vibe on the carbons vs aluminum also. 

Strength to weight ratio carbon is roughly 10 times stronger per unit volume when compared to aluminum 

The warmth when not wearing gloves is definitely noticeable when comparing aluminum and it’s a rather large difference in comfort. 

If you have the money and like the carbon, then it maybe worth it to some, it is for me 

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## 1 2 NV (Oct 7, 2016)

I choose PSE because it's a true carbon bow. The hoyt is a wanna be carbon bow. 
Hours are ugly too.


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## spike camp (Jun 2, 2008)

1 2 NV said:


> I choose PSE because it's a true carbon bow. The hoyt is a wanna be carbon bow.
> Hours are ugly too.



I don’t know about that...
Hoyt risers, especially 2020 risers, I’ve always thought as exceptionally athletically pleasing.
In other words, the RX4 is freakin’ badass looking!


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## scott_co (Nov 23, 2017)

ontarget7 said:


> Light isn’t always better and aluminum vs Carbon is a different feel altogether.
> I will say there is less accessory vibe on the carbons vs aluminum also.
> 
> Strength to weight ratio carbon is roughly 10 times stronger per unit volume when compared to aluminum
> ...


Agree on benefits of carbon vs aluminum: stronger, stiffer, lighter, warmer sense of feel in cold weather, and better at vibration damping. Design of a riser and the carbon layup process has a huge impact on carbon actually achieving it's benefits. It seems riser designs are improving, but still have room for improvement.

My Carbon Stealth is not perfect, but I don't see myself ever buying another aluminum bow.


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## ProXXX (Oct 12, 2010)

I shot both quite a bit, the Mach-1 has slightly more hand shock than RX4. Mach-1 is lighter than the RX4. Mach-1 at least to me has better back wall, I like solid back wall. RX4 has more stabilizer options as it has rear hole, none on mach-1. Now as for how they feel on the shot that goes to the RX4, probably due to the weight difference?? Finish, I like the RX4 camo colors, not a fan of the solid colors and I feel the same about the mach-1. Mach-1 just has too few options as far as color. If I were to go with the Mach-1 I would probably have to go with black. RX4 would be ev ll riser black limbs. $1599 for the RX4, $1499 for the mach-1. I try to convince myself every year I need a carbon bow and shoot alot of bows in the process. Pro shop say the carbons are warm when cold, and I dont doubt they feel warmer. My bow hangs on a hook until I'm ready to shoot and i wear gloves. Until the carbons do something an aluminum riser can't do or do something noticeably better I just cant part with the $500.


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## bigbucks170 (Feb 2, 2006)

I like the grip on the PSE because you are holding Carbon ..I don't like plastic grips, I prefer bare riser grips 
one of the reasons for picking carbon was to feel it over aluminum, covering in plastic is just wrong


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## ontarget7 (Dec 30, 2009)

bigbucks170 said:


> I like the grip on the PSE because you are holding Carbon ..I don't like plastic grips, I prefer bare riser grips
> one of the reasons for picking carbon was to feel it over aluminum, covering in plastic is just wrong


I don’t feel there is a better grip on the market than Hoyt. There grip is so repeatable and forgiving to torque. 


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## bigbucks170 (Feb 2, 2006)

ontarget7 said:


> I don’t feel there is a better grip on the market than Hoyt. There grip is so repeatable and forgiving to torque.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


yeah good info... I never tried the new grip on the RX4 yet , but its cool that its adjustable correct ?


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## Helic (Apr 11, 2019)

There is a few problems with these types of "compare these bows" posts.

#1 most of the people commenting do not own both these bows. The comparisons are based on little to nothing.

#2 for the few who have fired a couple shots through both bows, these bows are so new that no one has spent much time with them.
My mach 1 is in the mail.
Will be here next week.
My RX4 is over a month out.
Once I get them, I am sure I will like both of them.
But to really perform an honest evaluation, and then form a "comparison opinion" will take longer than a couple test shots in a bow shop.

I have had the new elite rezult since it came out.
Picked it up at my bow shop the day of the release.
Been shooting it ever since.
I am just now starting to form an opinion of it that is more than my " first impressions " judgment.

On target has spent a lot of time with his hoyt.
I would trust his opinion of his hoyt.
Not sure how much time he spends with the pse line.
But he certainly has some good information to share about the rx4 side of things.

Does that make one better?

Not at all in my opinion.

It took me several months of shooting my vertix in 2019 to fully realize how much I liked that bow.
How consistent it was for me.
But the mathews top hat system is kind of like opening a combination lock that you forgot the last two digits of the open code.
It took a lot of work to get it to shoot bare shafts out to 60 and then 100 yards.

#3 my opinion and expirience will be different from yours.
Not everyone shoots the same, uses thier bows the same, or prefers the same features and functions.
Peoples biases are definitely not the same.

I love my bowtechs.
My reign 7 and realm x are some of my all time favorite bows. I am scared to death of the new cam system. But I know nothing. I do not own one. I just have a mental bias toward the old system.

Brother, dont take too much stock in these posts. They are all too common and often full of things that will not help you personally. Unless you are looking to reinforce an opinion you already hold. Strength in numbers.


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## Thundersnow (Nov 15, 2014)

Helic said:


> There is a few problems with these types of "compare these bows" posts.
> 
> #1 most of the people commenting do not own both these bows. The comparisons are based on little to nothing.
> 
> ...


What is all this rubbish? Don't you know logic has no place on AT?

Go launch 5 or 6 arrows out of an untuned bare bow with a whisker biscuit on it at a target 5 yards away and "the bow will choose you"

I agree with your post 1000%...


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## Bassattackr (Oct 23, 2009)

treillw said:


> I haven't weighed them personally, but the Mach 1 is noticeably lighter.


I picked one up in the shop last week, crazy light. Felt almost like a toy.


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## spike camp (Jun 2, 2008)

spike camp said:


> I don’t know about that...
> Hoyt risers, especially 2020 risers, I’ve always thought as exceptionally athletically pleasing.
> In other words, the RX4 is freakin’ badass looking!



**aesthetically pleasing**

Maybe athletically too, dunno.


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## Bassattackr (Oct 23, 2009)

spike camp said:


> **aesthetically pleasing**
> 
> Maybe athletically too, dunno.


I'd agree with this. The old RX1 was hideous IMO. I do like the new RX4 design quite a bit though.


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## scott_co (Nov 23, 2017)

spike camp said:


> **aesthetically pleasing**
> 
> Maybe athletically too, dunno.


I think the Mach 1 is athletically and aesthetically pleasing as well. 

I like the simplicity of the Stealth/Mach 1 bows. RX4 is ok, but a little too much going on for me. My biggest gripe with the Hoyt carbon bows is weight...just weigh too much for a carbon bow to me.


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## BucksnBass525 (Feb 21, 2009)

sthrogmartin said:


> I’ve shot all three RX4’s at the shop and I actually bought the Mach 1. Probably the deciding factor was a happy medium on ATA with the Mach 1. It’s 32”....little longer than the Alpha and shorter than the Ultra.
> 
> I like the Hoyt’s and will probably own one at some point this summer. But since owning the Mach 1, it has not disappointed. It’s shooting much faster than advertised IBO and dead in the hand with my accessories. It holds steady and is a pleasure to shoot. I have changed the stock HL mods (80-90%) to LL (65-75%) and gained about 8 FPS with it set at 75% letoff. I also tried the FL mods and gained 10fps (similar to the RX4 turbo). Calculated IBO with my arrow with the LL mods is 345....that’s as good as any comparable hunting bow.
> 
> I’ve owned a couple RX3 Ultras and they are a pleasure to shoot. Honestly, they are both great bows, can’t go wrong either way. But PSE has raised the benchmark this year. I wouldn’t rate either one better than the other.


One of the best comparisons I have seen......


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## ProXXX (Oct 12, 2010)

I think some people buy a bow and cant help but have to screw with it. (Tophats on mathews or shimming pse's or yoke tuning hoyts). If it ain't broke dont fix it!


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## ontarget7 (Dec 30, 2009)

ProXXX said:


> I think some people buy a bow and cant help but have to screw with it. (Tophats on mathews or shimming pse's or yoke tuning hoyts). If it ain't broke dont fix it!


Plenty of them need adjustments, it’s just the nature of the beast if your looking for clean nock travel transferred to the arrow. 

If manufacturers would take the steps and run bareshafts through the bows during the testing stages they would not have near the issues. Make up and take out of cam tracks would be fine tuned ahead of time. 

Hoyt screwed the make up and take out of the cam tracks up for a couple years and vertical nock travel suffered. 

Evolve cams were the cats meow on the PSE’s so they figured why not just throw them on all there pro series bows. The Xpedite as nice as it is for a speed bow aside from overall balance tuned 1/8” nock high in many cases and top cam hitting before the bottom so you would have to slide the letoff bar forward one position on the bottom cam so they hit at the same time. 

Then to have shims so far off and so inconsistent from the factory is just ridiculous. 

Plenty of stuff broke that needs to be fixed out there 


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## 0nepin (Sep 16, 2009)

My stealth sold a good bit more than I have seen hoyts carbon going for lately.so it’s debatable


DJO said:


> If resale value is a consideration, Hoyt is a better bet. Selling PSE bows on AT classifieds is like selling Obsession or Xpedition, the value plummets when you leave the shop.


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## 0nepin (Sep 16, 2009)

I think PSE finally has made the perfect carbon bow with the Mach 1 .very light , very good speed with a smooth draw and a absolutely awesome grip .Hoyt still has some work to do , a carbon bow that weighs as much and sometimes more than a aluminum bows is just plain stupid imho .the rx4 is a good shooting bow but it might as well be made from 100% aluminum it has no advantages from being made with carbon.hoyt need to get on there homie in China and get them to step up there game .PSE is only real carbon bow to speak of .


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## PJC15 (Aug 18, 2015)

I’m confused as to where these heavier weights are coming from. My RX4 ultra with 80lb limbs (which are thicker than the other weights) is 4.3 lbs bare. That’s 6 ounces lighter than my CT5 and 9 ounces lighter than the traverse I had. Believe it or not but there isn’t that much weight to cut in risers. All of the weight is in the limbs, limb pockets and cams. When comparing to the pse Carbon, I’m willing to bet if you stripped it down and weighed just the riser it would be very close to the same weight as the hoyt. I do like the PSE but feel the Hoyt is built more stout.


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## ontarget7 (Dec 30, 2009)

sthrogmartin said:


> I’ve shot all three RX4’s at the shop and I actually bought the Mach 1. Probably the deciding factor was a happy medium on ATA with the Mach 1. It’s 32”....little longer than the Alpha and shorter than the Ultra.
> 
> I like the Hoyt’s and will probably own one at some point this summer. But since owning the Mach 1, it has not disappointed. It’s shooting much faster than advertised IBO and dead in the hand with my accessories. It holds steady and is a pleasure to shoot. I have changed the stock HL mods (80-90%) to LL (65-75%) and gained about 8 FPS with it set at 75% letoff. I also tried the FL mods and gained 10fps (similar to the RX4 turbo). Calculated IBO with my arrow with the LL mods is 345....that’s as good as any comparable hunting bow.
> 
> I’ve owned a couple RX3 Ultras and they are a pleasure to shoot. Honestly, they are both great bows, can’t go wrong either way. But PSE has raised the benchmark this year. I wouldn’t rate either one better than the other.


If your in the #2 cam RX4 Alpha you don’t need low letoff mods and get a 345 IBO bow with a good valley. 


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## BrushyHillGuide (Oct 27, 2010)

I was really thinking about trying the Hoyt until Dudley signed on to PSE and they released the Nock On Mach 1. I've always liked Dudley and his tweaked products, like his modified Carter releases, so I'm going to try his Mach 1. Call me a sucker for marketing. Lol


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## Gooldylocks (Nov 15, 2018)

ontarget7 said:


> If your in the #2 cam RX4 Alpha you don’t need low letoff mods and get a 345 IBO bow with a good valley.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Many people prefer a shorter valley, I for one find it is much easier to let down vs 85-90%... I typically shoot 80% so 75 isn't a significant difference, but the shorter valley is much nicer. It also keeps me stronger in the shot, which is more gooder for shooting the hinge.

Oh, and it is nearly a pound lighter than an alpha, so....


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## ontarget7 (Dec 30, 2009)

Gooldylocks said:


> Many people prefer a shorter valley, I for one find it is much easier to let down vs 85-90%... I typically shoot 80% so 75 isn't a significant difference, but the shorter valley is much nicer. It also keeps me stronger in the shot, which is more gooder for shooting the hinge.
> 
> Oh, and it is nearly a pound lighter than an alpha, so....


So have you tested the LL mods ? 



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## Gooldylocks (Nov 15, 2018)

ontarget7 said:


> So have you tested the LL mods ?
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Not on a mach 1, but I shot them a whole lot on my Perform X so yeah, I've used the LL mods.


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## ontarget7 (Dec 30, 2009)

Gooldylocks said:


> Not on a mach 1, but I shot them a whole lot on my Perform X so yeah, I've used the LL mods.


Definitely different between those two


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## Gooldylocks (Nov 15, 2018)

ontarget7 said:


> Definitely different between those two
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


If anything it should be a "easier" draw cycle than on the Perform, since that is an SE cam.


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## ontarget7 (Dec 30, 2009)

Gooldylocks said:


> If anything it should be a "easier" draw cycle than on the Perform, since that is an SE cam.



You don’t get 20 more fps from an easier draw. 


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## Predator (Jan 18, 2003)

ProXXX said:


> I think some people buy a bow and cant help but have to screw with it. (Tophats on mathews or shimming pse's or yoke tuning hoyts). If it ain't broke dont fix it!


Problem is that they are usually already "broke" coming from the factory if you are actually skilled enough with tuning to know what "broke" is. I wish it weren't so but it simply is.


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## treillw (Jan 13, 2020)

BrushyHillGuide said:


> I was really thinking about trying the Hoyt until Dudley signed on to PSE and they released the Nock On Mach 1. I've always liked Dudley and his tweaked products, like his modified Carter releases, so I'm going to try his Mach 1. Call me a sucker for marketing. Lol


I didn't know he had a version of the Mach 1. It's not the biggest concern by far, but I'm not crazy about the colors that the standard version is offered in. I think I like the dud version better. It doesn't seem to have logos all over, which I would hate. Not sure how I feel about the string color, but I think the riser and limbs look better than their other offerings. Would PSE ship a new one with a black string? I think a FDE or olive drab string would look cool.

I'm not a Dudley fanboy - I didn't even know who he was until I joined archery talk a couple weeks ago and saw everybody talking about him. That said, I have nothing against him. Those of you who dislike him are doing a good job of getting his name out there!


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## Gooldylocks (Nov 15, 2018)

ontarget7 said:


> You don’t get 20 more fps from an easier draw.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


No, but you might get close to that with 8 inches shorter ATA, an inch less brace, and more parallel, much more preloaded limbs? 

Either way, I would still rather have less valley even if makes it slightly stiffer to draw. The Mach 1 is a very smooth drawing bow as is, so I don't think that is gonna suffer too badly.


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## ProXXX (Oct 12, 2010)

My shop is very good at setting up bows. This site is very good at putting ideas in people's heads that their bow needs super tuning or??? I'm not saying that some adjustments are not necessary but no way in h*ll am I paying someone to "supertune" my bow when I have a shop that takes care of initial setup on the bow and adjustments thereafter.


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## Helic (Apr 11, 2019)

Proxxx,
Love you man.
Not trying to start anything with this question.
Just curious.

Why do you think mathews makes, and sells the top hat kit?

I just always assumed it was because it was a nessescary item.

The factory doesnt know what draw length and poundage, or any of the other variables an archer might encounter when setting up a bow.

I guess I just figured that you needed that stuff to do a basic set up on a bow.

I sure would hate to be comparing a poorly set up bow to a perfectly set up bow.
Seems like an unfair comparison.


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## Grumman (Jul 2, 2017)

It would be a hard pick for me. I'm hoping that PSE sells a lot of the NockOn Mach 1's and I can pickup a used one at a good price next year.


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## cruizerjoy (Dec 20, 2016)

Unless I'm mistaken the Nock On Mach 1 is just cosmetic. The only bow Dud has had any design input on is the NXT so far. I'm not real crazy about the green color on the Nock On bows. I'm more of a basic black kinda guy.


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## sthrogmartin (Apr 28, 2019)

Helic said:


> There is a few problems with these types of "compare these bows" posts.
> 
> #1 most of the people commenting do not own both these bows. The comparisons are based on little to nothing.
> 
> ...


Very well said. I've owned the Mach 1 for a few weeks and so far am very pleased with the grip and stability of the riser. As it's already been mentioned, the Mach 1 is very light and is shooting much faster than the advertised IBO (at least in my case). I'm shooting LL mods and getting around 344 calculated IBO. But, I won't say it's a better bow than the RX4...that's like choosing between a chocolate and strawberry milkshake...which flavor do you prefer?


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## ProXXX (Oct 12, 2010)

Top hats are there for tuning no doubt. My point is that every bow does not have to be screwed with to that level. But this site would leave one to believe mathews is lucky to get the bow together correctly at the factory????


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## Bourbon Boy (Mar 18, 2013)

treillw said:


> I don't quite get why you would want to go with a carbon bow that weighs as much as an aluminum, other than it keeps your hands warmer - I can think of better ways to keep my hands warm for $1000.


I wouldn't go with a carbon bow that weighs as much as a aluminum bow. I actually went with a Win & Win carbon which is as light as a PSE.


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## Paddylad (Dec 13, 2017)

Since the Mach 1/Carbon air bows have a totally different construction design than the Hoyt Carbon RX-3/RX-4 it is difficult to compare them - especially when your talking fully constructed weight ! The Hoyt's have a machined ali portion on each end which will add to the weight - but I would wager that the Hoyt is probably a little quieter due to the overall weight being a bit more. I prefer the design of the Hoyts which offers a stiffer platform to start with. It's nice to have the choices though :-}


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## Doebuster (Mar 5, 2006)

I seen a review of them both the mach1 was 9-10 FPS faster ! The Hoyt weighed 4.6 versus 3.6 on the pse ! The review is on Lusk outdoors adventures on u tube ! Very informative


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## mbtaylor (Oct 23, 2019)

I have shot both bows and here was my observations... 70lbs and 30" draw on both

Vibration - Slight nod to Hoyt although the Mach1 is not bad at all

Speed - Got better speeds out of the PSE although I didn't shoot the Turbo... it's basically a wash in my opinion. Speeds were only a few FPS different

Draw - I personally prefer the Mach 1 by a large margin (not that the Rx-4 is bad, it's just not what I like). The Hoyt draws very stiff to me with a short valley that requires you to hold it back firmly. it want's to go if you relax. The PSE is consistent/smooth to me with a small bump at the end of the draw. almost need to push it forward to let down. Draw cycle is very much a personal preference thing so I can't say one is a winner. 

Back-wall - PSE is almost limb stop firm while the Hoyt has a little sponge at the end.

Weight - The PSE is super lightweight. The Hoyt is basically the same as their aluminum versions. PSE is a clear winner in the weight category. The PSE is an actual 3.4lb bow (lighter than advertised on my scale). While the Alpha was almost 4.2lbs...

Grip - Both are good. The PSE mach1 is way better the the previous stealth box grip. I probably like the Hoyt grip better. Feels perfect in my hands. My favorite thing about Hoyt bows is the grip. 

I personally like the PSE by a long shot, but would not be disappointed with the Hoyt. Both are great bows. I do wish the Hoyt was lighter in Physical weight. If I did get one of the new Hoyts, I would get the aluminum version since they weigh about the same and Hoyt uses a plastic grip anyways. Just my option, this isn't dogma.


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## treillw (Jan 13, 2020)

mbtaylor said:


> I have shot both bows and here was my observations... 70lbs and 30" draw on both
> 
> Vibration - Slight nod to Hoyt although the Mach1 is not bad at all
> 
> ...


Generally agree - similar to what I've found. 

It is crazy how the Mach 1 holds - like you said, you practically have to push it forward to let it down. 

I shot the Rx4 Turbo again this weekend and I got too relaxed a couple of times with it and it wanted to take off. That pretty much eliminated it from my list. Probably not a good thing if I'm drawn back and trying to turn to follow an elk or something.


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## THE ELKMAN (Jan 2, 2013)

treillw said:


> Which bow would you prefer and why? I have some thoughts after shooting the Mach 1 and all three versions of the RX4. I'm curious to hear your thoughts and which one you would rather shoot.
> 
> Some of my observations:
> 
> ...


The PSE is by far the better option.


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## treillw (Jan 13, 2020)

Anyone know if the MSRP on the Nock on Mach 1 is more than the others? I like the camo and colors more, but not for extra.


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## Mathias (Mar 21, 2005)

THE ELKMAN said:


> The PSE is by far the better option.


For who?


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## Thundersnow (Nov 15, 2014)

Earth


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## Kris87 (Sep 12, 2003)

Mathias said:


> For who?


Anyone that wants a lightweight carbon bow?


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## Mathias (Mar 21, 2005)

Kris87 said:


> Anyone that wants a lightweight carbon bow?


Clearly then, the best bow ever!


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## Gooldylocks (Nov 15, 2018)

Mathias said:


> Clearly then, the best bow ever!
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


The most legitimate reason to pay the premium to buy a carbon bow is the weight savings. Anything else is a justification. The Hoyt fails to deliver in that most critical category. I like the way hoyts feel and shoot, but if I was buying one there's no way it would be carbon. The helix/axius are similar enough in weight with all the same features. 

"But it is more stable! But it has less hand shock!" ...it is also a full pound heavier. Add a pound of weight and dampening to the ends of your stabilizers and it will change that.


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## Mathias (Mar 21, 2005)

Gooldylocks said:


> The most legitimate reason to pay the premium to buy a carbon bow is the weight savings. Anything else is a justification. The Hoyt fails to deliver in that most critical category. I like the way hoyts feel and shoot, but if I was buying one there's no way it would be carbon. The helix/axius are similar enough in weight with all the same features.
> 
> "But it is more stable! But it has less hand shock!" ...it is also a full pound heavier. Add a pound of weight and dampening to the ends of your stabilizers and it will change that.


All true if lightweight is a major consideration. For me, it’s not, so I bought what is best for me. As I’m sure you did too!


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## MELLY-MEL (Dec 22, 2008)

Finally shot the pse at gaos and its a really nice bow. For me the vxr 31 won 2020, but its was very hard to decide between it, and both carbons, they are all are right there, and id be happy with either. Fantastic bows!


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## Gooldylocks (Nov 15, 2018)

Mathias said:


> All true if lightweight is a major consideration. For me, it’s not, so I bought what is best for me. As I’m sure you did too!
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


But I guess my question is, what are your "major considerations" that make the $600 extra worth it over an aluminum offering? The warmer feel of carbon when it is cold? The hoyt alumunum bows have a rubber grip, and you can always wear gloves (which if it is that cold, you probably are anyway). The inherent dampening properties of carbon? If weight is no issue, then add additional dampening components to your bow. Speed, ATA length, brace..? All the same between the aluminum and carbon models in the hoyts.

To me it isn't a question of PSE vs Hoyt (or any other brand), it is do you want a carbon bow for the primary benefit of carbon, or is that unnecessary for your use. Because if that is a factor, then the PSE is the only real choice.


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## Mathias (Mar 21, 2005)

I’ve shot both, both great bows for their own reasons.
You touched on warmth, major consideration for me. Rubber over grip or not, still much warmer than aluminum.
The grip itself, the RX is much nicer to me. The PSE is certainly improved, but still not as nice.
Draw cycle, at my specs, I prefer the Hoyt.
Looks, greatly prefer the Hoyt.
The pound or so more weight is simply not a negative for my needs. It’s quiet and vibration free and I find it to be a pleasure to shoot.
All of my reasons for choosing the Hoyt over the PSE.
Lest there is any doubt, here is the Mach that I shot.










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## -bowfreak- (Oct 18, 2006)

Gooldylocks said:


> But I guess my question is, what are your "major considerations" that make the $600 extra worth it over an aluminum offering? The warmer feel of carbon when it is cold? The hoyt alumunum bows have a rubber grip, and you can always wear gloves (which if it is that cold, you probably are anyway). The inherent dampening properties of carbon? If weight is no issue, then add additional dampening components to your bow. Speed, ATA length, brace..? All the same between the aluminum and carbon models in the hoyts.
> 
> To me it isn't a question of PSE vs Hoyt (or any other brand), it is do you want a carbon bow for the primary benefit of carbon, or is that unnecessary for your use. Because if that is a factor, then the PSE is the only real choice.



If weight is the only measurable consideration for a carbon bow, then what is the only measurable consideration for an aluminum bow?


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## Kris87 (Sep 12, 2003)

-bowfreak- said:


> If weight is the only measurable consideration for a carbon bow, then what is the only measurable consideration for an aluminum bow?


In that context....the answer is price.


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## bigbucks170 (Feb 2, 2006)

Kris87 said:


> In that context....the answer is price.


and better heat finishes on risers more vibrant colors on aluminum


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## Gooldylocks (Nov 15, 2018)

-bowfreak- said:


> If weight is the only measurable consideration for a carbon bow, then what is the only measurable consideration for an aluminum bow?


The main reason to spend extra for carbon, is lightness. It isn't the "only measurable consideration", it is the pass/fail non-starter issue. Once you have made the decision whether you want a light bow or don't care about the weight, then you can start breaking down your options in those categories.



Mathias said:


> I’ve shot both, both great bows for their own reasons....
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I feel like you are reinforcing my points in a way. You prefer the draw cycle and looks of the hoyt. That's totally legitimate. That's why I said it isn't really a question of PSE vs Hoyt, but carbon vs aluminum (heavy vs light). Because if you prefer the hoyt feel and look then absolutely go that way, but my stance is there is no compelling reason to buy the hoyt carbon over their alumnium offerings. 

Yeah the grip is still warmer than its aluminum counterpart, but the aluminum is still gonna offer more protection than say, a PSE Evoke shooting straight off the riser. The metal bows are within a couple oz of the carbon bows, with the same draw cycles and essentially same feel at the shot. But they cost $600 less. I don't see the value they bring to the table.


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## -bowfreak- (Oct 18, 2006)

Kris87 said:


> In that context....the answer is price.


Then the obvious answer is that everyone should be buying a Caesar Hunting Bow from eBay. It is $114.99 and it's the cheapest bow I could find with a quick search on eBay. Why anyone buys an aluminum bow other than this one makes zero sense to me?


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## Bassattackr (Oct 23, 2009)

Gooldylocks said:


> The main reason to spend extra for carbon, is lightness.


I think most prefer it for the warmer touch during cold months. A few ounces separating bow weights I don't think is a difference maker for most. 

If you're strong enough to pull 60+ pounds, don't whine about bow weight. Still lighter than any rifle, get your @ss in shape


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## ontarget7 (Dec 30, 2009)

Anyone have good pictures of the OD green riser nockon Mach 1 ? 




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## Doebuster (Mar 5, 2006)

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=gSQ777-OS74 This shows the color pretty good , looks better here !


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## Doebuster (Mar 5, 2006)

I ordered fusion but I'm thinking about changing to the green !


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## Doebuster (Mar 5, 2006)

I did notice on the camos it has a feel to it like the old bowtech In velvet finish had , the kuiu looks good and so does the fusion it's different !


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## Summit3 (Sep 23, 2018)

Doebuster said:


> I ordered fusion but I'm thinking about changing to the green !


I’d leave it, I got to see a demo at a shop in Texas in Fusion. Dude it’s sweet!! 


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## Gooldylocks (Nov 15, 2018)

Bassattackr said:


> I think most prefer it for the warmer touch during cold months. A few ounces separating bow weights I don't think is a difference maker for most.
> 
> If you're strong enough to pull 60+ pounds, don't whine about bow weight. Still lighter than any rifle, get your @ss in shape


Seems like a very inefficient way to have warmer hands in the winter, compared to a nice pair of gloves. It is definitely nice and a big bonus but for me personally, it isn't even close to worth the upcharge just for that. If I was buying a Hoyt it would be the Helix/Axius Ultra. Two of my friends have that bow and it is a really nice shooter. But the weight is far too much for me. 

And as far as total weight, it is certainly a factor regardless of draw weight. Why do you think people build mountain hunting rifles that are 5-6#? And, my rifle gets to be carried on a sling not just hanging as dead weight from my shoulder all day every day. That definitely starts to hurt, same sensation as a stinger running across your back or down your arm. I have a bow sling, but it is not awesome. Bows aren't really shaped right to be carried by a sling.


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## Bassattackr (Oct 23, 2009)

Gooldylocks said:


> Seems like a very inefficient way to have warmer hands in the winter, compared to a nice pair of gloves. It is definitely nice and a big bonus but for me personally, it isn't even close to worth the upcharge just for that. If I was buying a Hoyt it would be the Helix/Axius Ultra. Two of my friends have that bow and it is a really nice shooter. But the weight is far too much for me.


To each their own I guess, which is why both models sell very well. I also have a Helix, but I got a great deal on it. I would definitely consider carbon in the future though. The weight for me is a non issue.


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## Mathias (Mar 21, 2005)




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## rmscustom (Mar 7, 2011)

Yup... Weight is not important at all on a $1700 carbon bow. I’m sure that was the conclusion in the Hoyt board room meeting when they decided to skew the weight numbers by a ridiculous amount... 
Maybe Hoyt should advertise their true weight with a marketing strategy that explains why their half carbon/half aluminum glued together bondo filled riser bow is superior to the competition due to its obesity... But it seems never looking in the mirror and pretending you’re skinny is much more effective because weight does matter


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## digsafe (Jan 4, 2018)

ontarget7 said:


> Anyone have good pictures of the OD green riser nockon Mach 1 ?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Just make a bowl of pea soup. Seriously there’s something about that green on that nock on Mach that just doesn’t seem too appealing.


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## ontarget7 (Dec 30, 2009)

digsafe said:


> Just make a bowl of pea soup. Seriously there’s something about that green on that nock on Mach that just doesn’t seem too appealing.


The green on the website is misleading from what I’m hearing and will be the same color as the aluminum or very close to as it is on carbon so I’m sure there will be a slight difference 

Yes, I would agree about the green they show on the website, it’s horrible 


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## Summit3 (Sep 23, 2018)

ontarget7 said:


> The green on the website is misleading from what I’m hearing and will be the same color as the aluminum or very close to as it is on carbon so I’m sure there will be a slight difference
> 
> Yes, I would agree about the green they show on the website, it’s horrible
> 
> ...


Yeah I think your right Shane. I’ve been watching a few videos today and the green is much darker than what the site shows. Much like Primes Ghost green from what I can tell. Should be sharp in person.


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## ontarget7 (Dec 30, 2009)

Summit3 said:


> Yeah I think your right Shane. I’ve been watching a few videos today and the green is much darker than what the site shows. Much like Primes Ghost green from what I can tell. Should be sharp in person.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I’m thinking it will look really good and then with the Subalpine limbs would be the ticket. 

It’s my understanding that the Subalpine limbs will only be offered on the Nockon version. 

Since I’m moving only to carbon I might have to add one to the RX4’s. Plus I still dig the Evolve cams and have to at least have one around 


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## V-TRAIN (Feb 27, 2009)

I wonder if subalpine will be a option on their bows next year, riser also ?


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## ontarget7 (Dec 30, 2009)

V-TRAIN said:


> I wonder if subalpine will be a option on their bows next year, riser also ?


For now, I would bet it will be a Nockon Edition only for awhile. 

I’m just thinking this through from a business mindset as well. I could be completely wrong, you never know what the future holds so things may change 


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## THE ELKMAN (Jan 2, 2013)

PSE will generally do what ever you want if you put it through the custom shop... Just AN FYI


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## ontarget7 (Dec 30, 2009)

THE ELKMAN said:


> PSE will generally do what ever you want if you put it through the custom shop... Just AN FYI


Not with the Subalpine, at least for now. 


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## THE ELKMAN (Jan 2, 2013)

We will find out. I know a guy that know's "the guy" and he wants the Sub on his...


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## ontarget7 (Dec 30, 2009)

THE ELKMAN said:


> We will find out. I know a guy that know's "the guy" and he wants the Sub on his...


You could always switch limbs etc off a Nockon Edition to get it but from the factory, Gore has only licensed it to the Nockon editions. 

It’s actually a smart move by Dudley IMO. Plus Dudley is tight with Barklow. 

Again, good move for both PSE and Dudley 


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## Super 91 (Feb 28, 2006)

I've sat and read all 6 pages of this interesting thread. I just got my Mach 1 in yesterday. I am currently shooting a PSE Carbon Air 32 ECS. It was interesting to compare the two side by side. I find the grip on the two bows to be nearly identical, which is good because I really like the feel and grip angle of the CA32's. On my Stealth bows, the longer front to back was uncomfortable, and made it easier to torque the bow than the thinnner grip on the Mach 1 and the CA32's. I enjoy shooting dead off the riser and love the flat back of these bows. Really settles in to your hand well and is very repeatable to me. 

Riser is quite a bit longer, which makes the bow hold much steadier to me, and the limb angle really helps with the hand shock you typically have with the PSE carbon line-up. Of course the Evolve cam is buttery smooth and really is a joy to shoot.

Tuning. I was quite pleased to set my rest at 13/16 and nearly dead level through the berger button hole, with maybe a 1/16" or less nock high. Bow maxed out at 72.6 pounds and shot the 569 grain Hexx at 269 set on the "B" setting on the cam and 90% letoff. It shot a 390 grain Blu-RZ at 324 at the same settings. I was pleased that I did not have to change the shim configurations, and the timing on the draw stops were spot on. Draw length looked good on my draw board and came in just about 1/8" long on the "B" setting. I'm sure if I set it to 80% letoff it would be dead on.

The riser on the Mach 1 is very well designed. I love the curved and rounded edges. You can hold this bow anywhere on the riser and it feels comfortable. The camo is excellent and fit and finish is great as usual. I only found a couple very minor imperfections and only a few people would pick them out and/or care about them.

Now a tiny bit of background. I used to shoot a Hoyt Carbon Spyder 30 and fell in love with carbon bows with that model. I hunt all over, but Out West is where it really shines. I love the light weight of the bows where trekking over the hard back country, and it is nice to not have the cold radiate through your hand into your bones when you grab the riser. I think the carbon dissipates the vibration better, and seems to be pretty quiet over all. After the CS30, I tried the CA32 ECS from PSE. I preferred the Evolve cam system, but still hate the shimming process. That is the one thing that PSE is still in the dark ages about, but once it is done, you are done and I've found little need to change once you get that right. But I have to pick up those little black shims all the time when I am getting the shims set correctly, and the top hats on Mathews or just about any other system is better than the old plastic shim setup still used by PSE.

Now each year I still shoot the Hoyt offering, and I love the grip and draw cycle of the RX4. Hoyt makes great bows and I find them easy to tune. But most people want a light weight carbon bow, and I can't for the life of me understand why they have a carbon bow that is heavier than advertised. This was just a bad move on Hoyt's part IMHO, but it is what it is. It still is a great bow, will still be warm to the touch, and holds and shoots well. If it is your cup of tea, then by all means go for, it will be a fine bow. Each person has to weigh what is the most important features they need/want on a bow, shoot the ones with the parameters they require, and make an informed choice from there. For me it was the Mach 1. Are my CA 32 ECS models going anywhere? Absolutely not. As a matter of fact I plan to do some side by side shooting of the two models and do some more comparisons of apples to apples. 

There are lots of great choices on the market, and the Hoyt and the PSE have very solid offerings. There is no "clear" winner here in my opinion, I feel it is more of what features you prefer, and once you have shot the bows, which feels the best to you on the draw and shot. Just my .02.


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## bigbucks170 (Feb 2, 2006)

Great review Super 91....


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## V-TRAIN (Feb 27, 2009)

Super 91 said:


> I've sat and read all 6 pages of this interesting thread. I just got my Mach 1 in yesterday. I am currently shooting a PSE Carbon Air 32 ECS. It was interesting to compare the two side by side. I find the grip on the two bows to be nearly identical, which is good because I really like the feel and grip angle of the CA32's. On my Stealth bows, the longer front to back was uncomfortable, and made it easier to torque the bow than the thinnner grip on the Mach 1 and the CA32's. I enjoy shooting dead off the riser and love the flat back of these bows. Really settles in to your hand well and is very repeatable to me.
> 
> .


That is fantastic info, I picked up a CA 32 & CA 34 used last year and love the grips on them.
I do feel some vibe when shot without a quiver, but it's no big deal. With my quiver on and a stabilizer they are dead as a door nail.

I am going to hold out until next year and see if they use the same risers on their other carbons.
Would love to have a 6.5" to 7" brace, 32" to 35" brace carbon with that riser. I feel like they will re-vamp the rest of their carbon line next year.


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## sgrappone (Mar 19, 2012)

Super 91, damn good write up. [emoji106] More people like you is what this place needs.

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## Kris87 (Sep 12, 2003)

My Mach 1 is on the way. My only decision is going to be whether I hold onto my original CA34 or the Evoke 31 I picked up last year as my back-up bow. Dang....tough choices all around.


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## Doebuster (Mar 5, 2006)

Super 91 that’s a smoking setup !


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## Super 91 (Feb 28, 2006)

It's going to be interesting to see how the Mach 1 is going to do at distance. Once the rain let's up here and I can get it paper tuned (already got a bullet hole out of the gate) and bareshaft and walkback tuned, I plan to shoot it at distance and see how well it holds on target. I want to shoot it at the different let-offs as well to see if it changes the hump at the end of the draw cycle and how well it holds on target.


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## Super 91 (Feb 28, 2006)

Kris87 said:


> My Mach 1 is on the way. My only decision is going to be whether I hold onto my original CA34 or the Evoke 31 I picked up last year as my back-up bow. Dang....tough choices all around.


The Evoke 31 is going to be a closer configuration to your Mach 1 than the CA34 as far as ATA and limb configurations, but I would have a hard time letting that CA34 go if it were me. Those bows are just good bows.


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## treillw (Jan 13, 2020)

Super 91 said:


> Tuning. I was quite pleased to set my rest at 13/16 and nearly dead level through the berger button hole, with maybe a 1/16" or less nock high. Bow maxed out at 72.6 pounds and shot the 569 grain Hexx at 269 set on the "B" setting on the cam and 90% letoff. It shot a 390 grain Blu-RZ at 324 at the same settings. I was pleased that I did not have to change the shim configurations, and the timing on the draw stops were spot on. Draw length looked good on my draw board and came in just about 1/8" long on the "B" setting. I'm sure if I set it to 80% letoff it would be dead on.


Thanks for the info!

Curious what your draw length is to go along with those velocities?


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## Red Eye 81 (Feb 4, 2006)

treillw said:


> Thanks for the info!
> 
> Curious what your draw length is to go along with those velocities?


I think "B" setting is 30" DL


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## V-TRAIN (Feb 27, 2009)

Super 91 said:


> I would have a hard time letting that CA34 go if it were me. Those bows are just good bows.


Preach on, it is the bees knees


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## Kris87 (Sep 12, 2003)

Super 91 said:


> The Evoke 31 is going to be a closer configuration to your Mach 1 than the CA34 as far as ATA and limb configurations, but I would have a hard time letting that CA34 go if it were me. Those bows are just good bows.


True. My CA34 draws smoother than the Evoke. Plus it has absolutely killed a pile of deer in the 3 years I've used it. It has spilled some serious blood!


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## Minnesotahunt3r (Jan 25, 2020)

All in all when it comes down to choosing a bow I would guess not many people will pick a bow to shoot based primarily on specs. Some prefer hoyt, some prefer pse, it just comes down to preference. I've had multiple customers come in year after year to get their bows retuned just to make sure everything is in order and I haven't seen significant evidence that one cam system is more prone to falling out of sync or having a cam fall out of time.


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## Bassattackr (Oct 23, 2009)

After 7 pages it appears everyone is reiterating.. they're both great bows. Groundbreaking


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## Super 91 (Feb 28, 2006)

Red Eye 81 said:


> I think "B" setting is 30" DL


That should be correct as the Mach 1 is advertised at max 30.5" draw length.


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## treillw (Jan 13, 2020)

I think I'm going to wait until next year. PSE will probably revamp their entire carbon lineup to be similar to the mach 1, based on the success they are having with it. I might prefer a bow with a longer axle to axle for more long range stability. Weight difference for a longer carbon bow will be negligible probably. Looks like their current 35 axle to axle bow weighs the same as the mach 1. 

Maybe Dudley will help them out with next years model as well, beyond some new colors and a logo.


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## cruizerjoy (Dec 20, 2016)

Kris87 said:


> True. My CA34 draws smoother than the Evoke. Plus it has absolutely killed a pile of deer in the 3 years I've used it. It has spilled some serious blood!


The Mach 1 would have to be something special to get me to even consider getting rid of my CA34. Its a tack driver. Don't get me wrong the Mach is intriguing and I still might have to have one but my CA 34 is going know where.


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## THE ELKMAN (Jan 2, 2013)

ontarget7 said:


> I’m thinking it will look really good and then with the Subalpine limbs would be the ticket.
> 
> It’s my understanding that the Subalpine limbs will only be offered on the Nockon version.
> 
> ...


I know how this ^^^ ends...


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## V-TRAIN (Feb 27, 2009)

cruizerjoy said:


> The Mach 1 would have to be something special to get me to even consider getting rid of my CA34. Its a tack driver. Don't get me wrong the Mach is intriguing and I still might have to have one but my CA 34 is going know where.


It's the brace height difference that is gonna make the 34 draw easier.
I have a ca 32 and a ca 34, and the 34 is a easier draw. I dig the Mach 1, but I am gonna stand pat until next year. I feel almost certain they will make a 32-34" ata bow with a 6.5"-7" brace with the Mach 1 riser, that will get my money.


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## PAKraig (Sep 19, 2005)

THE ELKMAN said:


> I know how this ^^^ ends...


:set1_applaud:


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## RedArrow81 (Nov 6, 2019)

Man, i love the Mach 1. I think its going to be my elk hunting bow this year. I’ll continue to use my Elite Ritual 33 for bear, deer and moose, i love it and it’s set up perfectly, but the Mack 1 is so damn light and shoots so well. Anyone who has hunted Elk, Muley, sheep or Mountain goat knows the value of lighter gear. Plus, holding a bow thats not aluminum in the cold is very nice.

My Helix will be packed as my spare bow for all hunting. Because when you’re 1000 miles from home, its good to have spare gear back in camp.


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## THE ELKMAN (Jan 2, 2013)

ProXXX said:


> PSE=3.5#, Hoyt RX4=3.9#


This isn't even close to the truth ^^^


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## THE ELKMAN (Jan 2, 2013)

I really hope they put the new grip on the longer Carbons.


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## ontarget7 (Dec 30, 2009)

THE ELKMAN said:


> I know how this ^^^ ends...





PAKraig said:


> :set1_applaud:


I actually prefer the 33 NXT over the Mach 1


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## THE ELKMAN (Jan 2, 2013)

ontarget7 said:


> I actually prefer the 33 NXT over the Mach 1
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I completely agree


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## blakeman (Dec 7, 2006)

I've been hearing this too, wonder why?


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## treillw (Jan 13, 2020)

THE ELKMAN said:


> I really hope they put the new grip on the longer Carbons.


If they revamp the longer axle to axle bows to have the same riser as the mach 1, they will get my money next year.


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## bigbucks170 (Feb 2, 2006)

its just longer limbs ..probably can order custom limbs with Mach 1 ..if your shooting skills need bigger BH and longer ATA


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## treillw (Jan 13, 2020)

bigbucks170 said:


> its just longer limbs ..probably can order custom limbs with Mach 1 ..if your shooting skills need bigger BH and longer ATA


What do you mean exactly?


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## Gooldylocks (Nov 15, 2018)

bigbucks170 said:


> its just longer limbs ..probably can order custom limbs with Mach 1 ..if your shooting skills need bigger BH and longer ATA


Pretty sure he means make another new riser with 35 ATA but equally parallel limbs and the corresponding increase in riser length, and the smaller grip. 

I agree, they should do that. And while they're at it they should add a backbar mount down low. Ultimate 3D and extra stable hunting bow.


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## Doebuster (Mar 5, 2006)

THE ELKMAN said:


> This isn't even close to the truth ^^^


I weighed the mach1 and the rx4 on the digital scale at the shop , the Mach 1 weighed 3.6 the Hoyt rx4 weighed 4.65 they both had whisker biscuits on them !


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## treillw (Jan 13, 2020)

Gooldylocks said:


> Pretty sure he means make another new riser with 35 ATA but equally parallel limbs and the corresponding increase in riser length, and the smaller grip.
> 
> I agree, they should do that. And while they're at it they should add a backbar mount down low. Ultimate 3D and extra stable hunting bow.


Would be awesome and definitely get my money.


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## THE ELKMAN (Jan 2, 2013)

Doebuster said:


> I weighed the mach1 and the rx4 on the digital scale at the shop , the Mach 1 weighed 3.6 the Hoyt rx4 weighed 4.65 they both had whisker biscuits on them !


A full pound... OUCH!


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## Mathias (Mar 21, 2005)

THE ELKMAN said:


> A full pound... OUCH!


OMG, how can one even carry that thing


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## The Old Guy (Mar 28, 2017)

The RX4 weighs identical to my Mathews Vertix, which has been called a "boat anchor." So if weight is the reason for someone to choose carbon, the RX4 is not it.


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## THE ELKMAN (Jan 2, 2013)

agreed


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## swampcruiser (Mar 27, 2006)

bigbucks170 said:


> its just longer limbs ..probably can order custom limbs with Mach 1 ..if your shooting skills need bigger BH and longer ATA


I am absolutely loving my Mach shooting it lights out. I can’t wait to take it hunting. I think with the angle of the new limb pockets it would be tough to accomplish this. I know that was how they did it with the Stealth models.


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## BigZsquatchin (Nov 5, 2017)

swampcruiser said:


> I am absolutely loving my Mach shooting it lights out. I can’t wait to take it hunting. I think with the angle of the new limb pockets it would be tough to accomplish this. I know that was how they did it with the Stealth models.


U 
have the new Mach 1?


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## PJC15 (Aug 18, 2015)

The Old Guy said:


> The RX4 weighs identical to my Mathews Vertix, which has been called a "boat anchor." So if weight is the reason for someone to choose carbon, the RX4 is not it.


Lots of lies on the weights floating around. My RX4 ultra with 80lb limbs is 4.3 lbs bare, my CT5 was 4.9 and traverse was 5. Might take a video at the bow shop so all you haters stop crying. 


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## bigbucks170 (Feb 2, 2006)

swampcruiser said:


> I am absolutely loving my Mach shooting it lights out. I can’t wait to take it hunting. I think with the angle of the new limb pockets it would be tough to accomplish this. I know that was how they did it with the Stealth models.


yeah I think your right looking at the Stealth and Mach 1 side by side ...Congrats I cant wait to get mine


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## The Old Guy (Mar 28, 2017)

PJC15 said:


> Lots of lies on the weights floating around. My RX4 ultra with 80lb limbs is 4.3 lbs bare, my CT5 was 4.9 and traverse was 5. Might take a video at the bow shop so all you haters stop crying.


Not hating. The RX4 is heavy for a carbon bow. That is all. It is nice. It is not for me. I actually preferred the RX3. When I picked up a bare RX4 and bare Vertix, I could not "feel" any appreciable difference. I am down to the Mathews VXR 31,5 or the PSE Mach 1. I have never owned a carbon bow, or a PSE. So I am in new territory.


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## BigZsquatchin (Nov 5, 2017)

The Old Guy said:


> Not hating. The RX4 is heavy for a carbon bow. That is all. It is nice. It is not for me. I actually preferred the RX3. When I picked up a bare RX4 and bare Vertix, I could not "feel" any appreciable difference. I am down to the Mathews VXR 31,5 or the PSE Mach 1. I have never owned a carbon bow, or a PSE. So I am in new territory.


Same here man! I ordered the Mach 1 though! 


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## swampcruiser (Mar 27, 2006)

BigZsquatchin said:


> U
> have the new Mach 1?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Yes, I found myself struggling with pin float on my old Carbon Air 34 with how light it was. TheMach 1 is different for sure. I had been Shooting Rx Hoyt’s since the CA34. This thing is the real deal.


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## BigZsquatchin (Nov 5, 2017)

swampcruiser said:


> Yes, I found myself struggling with pin float on my old Carbon Air 34 with how light it was. TheMach 1 is different for sure. I had been Shooting Rx Hoyt’s since the CA34. This thing is the real deal.


Very happy to hear this !
I’ve had some hoyt carbons but nothing has ever felt as light as the Mach 1 I shot
Even post shot with no stab was great
The rx3 and 4 has some vibe
In all fairness not setup, but neither was the Mach 
Speeds from hoyts were 295
Mach 1 309!
And that’s with a 472 grain arrow 


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## ontarget7 (Dec 30, 2009)

They still can’t even produce the Mach 1 yet and IMO they are really on the edge in blowing this by the lack of production. It’s one thing to be backlogged with orders but it’s another to have zero circulation at this point for the most part.

I know someone that has been waiting over 4 month now and was told it would ship the middle of the month. Still, no word on confirmation of that at all and we are now past the middle of the month. 


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## 1 2 NV (Oct 7, 2016)

The hoyt isn't a carbon bow. It's an overlay on an aluminum frame. Why dont people understand this. That's why it's a fat pig.


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## BigZsquatchin (Nov 5, 2017)

ontarget7 said:


> They still can’t even produce the Mach 1 yet and IMO they are really on the edge in blowing this by the lack of production. It’s one thing to be backlogged with orders but it’s another to have zero circulation at this point for the most part.
> 
> I know someone that has been waiting over 4 month now and was told it would ship the middle of the month. Still, no word on confirmation of that at all and we are now past the middle of the month.
> 
> ...


I would question the shop maybe ? If ur proshop has any sack in the game they should be able to iron this out

People are getting them ,slowly yes, but still getting them.

If I get past my 8 week estimate I may get a little upset with TAC coming I’ll want practice time

4 months is crazy
I’d try another shop if ur shop isn’t getting u answers. 
I want mine now but don’t want to push them and have them start cutting corners to get them out faster 


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## ontarget7 (Dec 30, 2009)

BigZsquatchin said:


> I would question the shop maybe ? If ur proshop has any sack in the game they should be able to iron this out
> 
> People are getting them ,slowly yes, but still getting them.
> 
> ...


It’s not from a shop and directly from one of their sales reps


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## Chamacat (Apr 11, 2019)

Yep...I still haven't seen one yet..


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## PJC15 (Aug 18, 2015)

1 2 NV said:


> The hoyt isn't a carbon bow. It's an overlay on an aluminum frame. Why dont people understand this. That's why it's a fat pig.


Dry fire that PSE and let me know what happens.


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## bigbucks170 (Feb 2, 2006)

was told 8-12 weeks for my Custom order Mach 1 .... so far 10 weeks and couple days ...


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## THE ELKMAN (Jan 2, 2013)

ontarget7 said:


> They still can’t even produce the Mach 1 yet and IMO they are really on the edge in blowing this by the lack of production. It’s one thing to be backlogged with orders but it’s another to have zero circulation at this point for the most part.
> 
> I know someone that has been waiting over 4 month now and was told it would ship the middle of the month. Still, no word on confirmation of that at all and we are now past the middle of the month.
> 
> ...


I have two friends that own them so... Zero circulation is a TOTAL exaggeration


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## ontarget7 (Dec 30, 2009)

THE ELKMAN said:


> I have two friends that own them so... Zero circulation is a TOTAL exaggeration


I know a couple as well [emoji6]
However, it’s still like zero production at this point 


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## BigZsquatchin (Nov 5, 2017)

ontarget7 said:


> It’s not from a shop and directly from one of their sales reps
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Have u considered contacting another rep? I’ve heard some reps from all companies arent doing their job 


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## sambone (Mar 12, 2014)

PJC15 said:


> Dry fire that PSE and let me know what happens.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Archery rule #1: Never dry fire a bow
Hoyt fans: dry fire that bad boy! Go ahead, DO IT, DO IT..


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## BigZsquatchin (Nov 5, 2017)

sambone said:


> Archery rule #1: Never dry fire a bow
> Hoyt fans: dry fire that bad boy! Go ahead, DO IT, DO IT..


[emoji1787][emoji1787][emoji1787]


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## IVhunter (Jun 5, 2009)

And yet there was one in stock and for sale at a nearby dealer last time I was in. Hopefully they will catch up soon on production.


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## Mathias (Mar 21, 2005)

Buy what ya like, to come on here and post childish ill informed comments is just......childish :baby:


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## BigZsquatchin (Nov 5, 2017)

Opinions are like buttholes
We all have one 
And they all stink [emoji6]


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## ontarget7 (Dec 30, 2009)

BigZsquatchin said:


> Have u considered contacting another rep? I’ve heard some reps from all companies arent doing their job
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Trust me, it’s not the rep. One of the reps that have been with PSE the longest. 


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## PAKraig (Sep 19, 2005)

BigZsquatchin said:


> Very happy to hear this !
> I’ve had some hoyt carbons but nothing has ever felt as light as the Mach 1 I shot
> Even post shot with no stab was great
> The rx3 and 4 has some vibe
> ...


This seems a little bit exaggerated. 

On Monday, I was with a friend who just picked up his Mach 1.

Same arrow, same chrono, only seconds apart with a 366 grain arrow. Mach 1 = 322 fps @ 29"/70.1 lbs.....RX4 Alpha = 317..........and that was at 29.5/65.7 lbs.

We did not compare with a heavier arrow though.


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## BigZsquatchin (Nov 5, 2017)

PAKraig said:


> This seems a little bit exaggerated.
> 
> On Monday, I was with a friend who just picked up his Mach 1.
> 
> ...


So u really think that I made this up? 
What would u like in the future? A video ?

I have no reason to lie about it [emoji2373]


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## PAKraig (Sep 19, 2005)

BigZsquatchin said:


> So u really think that I made this up?
> What would u like in the future? A video ?
> 
> I have no reason to lie about it [emoji2373]
> ...


Easy now squatch, I didn't say YOU exaggerated, I said "this" seems exaggerated. I know both of the bows I compared were fine tuned. Were the ones you used to compare right off the shelf at the shop? If so, maybe one was tuned a little better than the other, thus *exaggerating *the spread of the speeds.

Just a real world conversation :thumbs_up


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## treillw (Jan 13, 2020)

I'll throw another wrench in the works. How does the bowtech carbon compare to the Hoyt and PSE?


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## Mathias (Mar 21, 2005)

c:—————————> :user: :mg: :angry: :argue: :set1_punch: :focus:


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## Mathias (Mar 21, 2005)

treillw said:


> I'll throw another wrench in the works. How does the bowtech carbon compare to the Hoyt and PSE?


That bow is not in the same class as either of the others, in any fashion. 
Not a fan of it at all.


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## BucksnBass525 (Feb 21, 2009)

Glad to see PSE making a nice carbon bow, but for carbon Hoyt would get my money!
Love the looks and overall feel of both the RX3 & the RX4. Hoyt absolutely killed it this year......


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## BigZsquatchin (Nov 5, 2017)

PAKraig said:


> Easy now squatch, I didn't say YOU exaggerated, I said "this" seems exaggerated. I know both of the bows I compared were fine tuned. Were the ones you used to compare right off the shelf at the shop? If so, maybe one was tuned a little better than the other, thus *exaggerating *the spread of the speeds.
> 
> Just a real world conversation :thumbs_up


I’m fine bub u will have to try harder than that to get me going
I do not exaggerate though
Speeds mean a lot to me 

To set things level
The bows were off the shelf and setup for for my specs 30” 70lb
4 shots each bow with duplicates

What do u suppose may have been off?

All good man we’re all breathing the same air [emoji6]


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## BigZsquatchin (Nov 5, 2017)

BucksnBass525 said:


> Glad to see PSE making a nice carbon bow, but for carbon Hoyt would get my money!
> Love the looks and overall feel of both the RX3 & the RX4. Hoyt absolutely killed it this year......


Glad u liked them
Feels as heavy as my traverse bare lol

Hoyt killed this year for sure
Killed any chance of me buying one [emoji1787]I am not trying to be a wiseguy sounds like it, I am genuinely happy you like them. Just not for me


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## BigZsquatchin (Nov 5, 2017)

Mathias said:


> That bow is not in the same class as either of the others, in any fashion.
> Not a fan of it at all.


I’ll agree with this 
But then again
Opinions are like buttholes [emoji6]


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## PAKraig (Sep 19, 2005)

BigZsquatchin said:


> I’m fine bub u will have to try harder than that to get me going
> I do not exaggerate though
> Speeds mean a lot to me
> 
> ...


Maybe the Evolve cam handles the heavier arrows better than the ZTR?? Do you know for sure what letoff setting the Mach 1 was in??


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## trimantrekokc (May 16, 2006)

HOYT IS the same this year as last and year before....no new designs at all. heavily reflexed risers to get short BH in order to get speeds halfway close to other companies. extremely Blahhhh....




BucksnBass525 said:


> Glad to see PSE making a nice carbon bow, but for carbon Hoyt would get my money!
> Love the looks and overall feel of both the RX3 & the RX4. Hoyt absolutely killed it this year......


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## BucksnBass525 (Feb 21, 2009)

trimantrekokc said:


> HOYT IS the same this year as last and year before....no new designs at all. heavily reflexed risers to get short BH in order to get speeds halfway close to other companies. extremely Blahhhh....


I hope you are kidding.
The RX3 was much better than the RX1, the 4 is even better....................in all areas!
Anyway, I don't have a carbon, but definitely my observations.


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## Doebuster (Mar 5, 2006)

The rx 4 mass wgt is why I went with the Mach 1 , the whole idea of a carbon bow IMO is a light mass wgt ! The Hoyt really hasn't changed much from last year ! I've owned a lot of Hoyt carbons and there a nice bow but the carbon Hoyt rx4 tipped the scales at a hefty 4.65 lbs compared to 3.6 lbs for the Mach 1 ! If I was going to buy a Hoyt it would be there aluminum bow same performance , a lot less $$$ with the mass wgts being close !


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## PJC15 (Aug 18, 2015)

Doebuster said:


> The rx 4 mass wgt is why I went with the Mach 1 , the whole idea of a carbon bow IMO is a light mass wgt ! The Hoyt really hasn't changed much from last year ! I've owned a lot of Hoyt carbons and there a nice bow but the carbon Hoyt rx4 tipped the scales at a hefty 4.65 lbs compared to 3.6 lbs for the Mach 1 ! If I was going to buy a Hoyt it would be there aluminum bow same performance , a lot less $$$ with the mass wgts being close !


No idea where this 4.6 lb weight thing is people are talking about. You all better get more accurate scales. Does anyone care about durability? It’s obvious if you look over each bow which one is built more stout. Hoyt cams are thicker/beefier, limbs are thicker, riser has more mass, etc. I guess if your not concerned with those things on a back country hunt then I guess it’s cool. We weighed several bows a few weeks ago on multiple scales and the alpha, ultra and turbo were all in the same range of 4.2-4.3lbs.


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## dgballweg (Feb 7, 2017)

PJC15 said:


> Doebuster said:
> 
> 
> > The rx 4 mass wgt is why I went with the Mach 1 , the whole idea of a carbon bow IMO is a light mass wgt ! The Hoyt really hasn't changed much from last year ! I've owned a lot of Hoyt carbons and there a nice bow but the carbon Hoyt rx4 tipped the scales at a hefty 4.65 lbs compared to 3.6 lbs for the Mach 1 ! If I was going to buy a Hoyt it would be there aluminum bow same performance , a lot less $$$ with the mass wgts being close !
> ...


4.3 pounds is heavier than I want any bow. Aluminum or carbon. Not sure why bows are getting so heavy when just a few years ago several companies offered aluminum bows under 4 pounds. (Decree, DNA, HTX, etc) also if his scale was heavy it should have made the Mach 1 read at 4 pounds if the Hoyt was 4.6 so the Hoyt is definitely heavy


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## PJC15 (Aug 18, 2015)

The wider/beefier limb pockets are what’s causing the weight increase 


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## Doebuster (Mar 5, 2006)

all I can tell you is we weighed all the new bows on the same calibrated digital scales , the Mach 1 was 3.6 , the elite Kure was 5.1 , the bowtech revolt was 4.9 , the Mathews vxr 31.5 was 4.76 , the Hoyt rx4 alpha was 4.65 ! There's a review on you tube that weighed the same bows and wgts were really close to these ! Hoyt adv. 3.9 so I guess maybe there scales are off too cause there's not one built that weighs that ! Lol


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## spike camp (Jun 2, 2008)

PJC15 said:


> No idea where this 4.6 lb weight thing is people are talking about. You all better get more accurate scales. Does anyone care about durability? It’s obvious if you look over each bow which one is built more stout. Hoyt cams are thicker/beefier, limbs are thicker, riser has more mass, etc. I guess if your not concerned with those things on a back country hunt then I guess it’s cool. We weighed several bows a few weeks ago on multiple scales and the alpha, ultra and turbo were all in the same range of 4.2-4.3lbs.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


 

Sounds like you’re the one, that needs an accurate scale...

And, why is Hoyt still listing their weight at under 4 pounds?


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## PJC15 (Aug 18, 2015)

spike camp said:


> Sounds like you’re the one, that needs an accurate scale...
> 
> And, why is Hoyt still listing their weight at under 4 pounds?


Umm no sir. 3 different scales were used including a certified postage scale. 

All of the manufactures are on the high side, Hoyt isn’t the only one. Mathews, bowtech, Prime, etc all weigh more than what’s advertised. There advertised weights don’t include limb dampeners, string silencers, shock pods, etc


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## spike camp (Jun 2, 2008)

3 scales...impressive.
Certified postage scale...even more impressive!
I guess all the scales, across all the reviews are equally off because that 4.5-4.65 has been consistently repeated.

There’s a member on here that removed everything possible on an Rx4, and still way above advertised weight, so....

You’ve mentioned durability a few times,and using backcountry as a scenario...you ever seen a cracked Carbon Air since 2016?
How many issues have been with Hoyts carbons since 2016?


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## PJC15 (Aug 18, 2015)

spike camp said:


> 3 scales...impressive.
> Certified postage scale...even more impressive!
> I guess all the scales, across all the reviews are equally off because that 4.5-4.65 has been consistently repeated.
> 
> ...


Have you paid attention to any of the reviews and videos that show them weighing 4.2-4.3lbs or are you ignorant to those. So what you are saying is you would rather believe the videos you watched with people using 20 dollar hand scales than someone using 3 really good scales?


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## spike camp (Jun 2, 2008)

PJC15 said:


> Have you paid attention to any of the reviews and videos that show them weighing 4.2-4.3lbs or are you ignorant to those. So what you are saying is you would rather believe the videos you watched with people using 20 dollar hand scales than someone using 3 really good scales?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk




I actually don’t care what the Hoyt actually weighs...it’s a tank of a carbon, period.
It’s beautiful, probably shoots amazing, tunes easily...across a wide spread of spine, and is probably overall stronger than the Mach 1(even though there haven’t much talked about issues with PSE carbon rises in the last 3-4 years) 

But none of that matters.
The Mach 1 is a kick ass bow too, that actually weighs close to it’s advertised weight, which is about 75% of the reason to own a carbon imo/ime (actual,backcountry scenarios).
Additionally, the carbon air platform, started awesome, improved(hugely)...and is now refined into a proven carbon bow that’s ideal for anyone looking for a carbon, for the attributes that are most appreciable, of a carbon.


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## ontarget7 (Dec 30, 2009)

PJC15 said:


> Have you paid attention to any of the reviews and videos that show them weighing 4.2-4.3lbs or are you ignorant to those. So what you are saying is you would rather believe the videos you watched with people using 20 dollar hand scales than someone using 3 really good scales?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I’ll be in Alaska this year with the anchor 
It’s just a better bow 


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## 1 2 NV (Oct 7, 2016)

PJC15 said:


> Dry fire that PSE and let me know what happens.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


And the award for the dumbest thing I've read today goes to this guy.

Because that's how he needs to get a mental victory. By doing something you're not supposed to do with any bow.

Face it. Hoyts are overrated and about every spec regarding their bows are lies. 

Then there is PSE. Under rates their bows. Truth is in the numbers. Hoyt sucks.


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## spike camp (Jun 2, 2008)

ontarget7 said:


> I’ll be in Alaska this year with the anchor
> It’s just a better bow
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk





1 2 NV said:


> And the award for the dumbest thing I've read today goes to this guy.
> 
> Because that's how he needs to get a mental victory. By doing something you're not supposed to do with any bow.
> 
> ...




To simplify, there is no better bow.
Only opinions and personal wants.

Buy the one that suits your fancy.
Both carbons are awesome, and feel lucky to have the options we currently have to choose from.


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## bigbucks170 (Feb 2, 2006)

better speed .better weight. better price. made in a better place ...all that is measurable


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## ontarget7 (Dec 30, 2009)

bigbucks170 said:


> better speed .better weight. better price. made in a better place ...all that is measurable


Yes, measurable to some but none of which are measurable to me. Accuracy and forgiveness is generally what sway me the most in a bow. 

#2 cam at 28” is not slower by the way 


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## THE ELKMAN (Jan 2, 2013)

treillw said:


> I'll throw another wrench in the works. How does the bowtech carbon compare to the Hoyt and PSE?


Bowtech doesn't make a carbon bow...


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## bigbucks170 (Feb 2, 2006)

ontarget7 said:


> Yes, measurable to some but none of which are measurable to me. Accuracy and forgiveness is generally what sway me the most in a bow.
> 
> #2 cam at 28” is not slower by the way
> 
> ...


yeah PSE's SE cam is like #2 cam for Hoyt , Thats why I ordered my Mach 1 with SE cam ..have you shot the Mach 1 much to compare accuracy and forgiveness that it swayed you? I am glad we have options in the Carbon bows ..both look solid this year
but like you accuracy trumps everything for me thats why I went with the PSE


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## BigZsquatchin (Nov 5, 2017)

THE ELKMAN said:


> Bowtech doesn't make a carbon bow...


Bow tech carbon icon
Wouldn’t touch it 



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## THE ELKMAN (Jan 2, 2013)

BigZsquatchin said:


> Bow tech carbon icon
> Wouldn’t touch it
> 
> 
> ...


Good because it's not a "carbon"...


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## THE ELKMAN (Jan 2, 2013)

ontarget7 said:


> Yes, measurable to some but none of which are measurable to me. Accuracy and forgiveness is generally what sway me the most in a bow.
> 
> #2 cam at 28” is not slower by the way
> 
> ...


At our shop with our chrono it sure is...


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## BigZsquatchin (Nov 5, 2017)

Guys guys.....
We all love what we love
We stand up for what we love and what we feel is right
My buddies all shoot different manufacturers but each shoots well with what they love so I stopped saying stuff lol
I used to be a mathews junkie
I’ve had several hoyts carbons 
Personally for me they vibrate like a single moms play toy
And heavier than advertised

To be honest though I NEVER thought I’d own a PSE

I shot the Mach 1 in fusion
70lbs 
30”
80 percent let off 
Slinging 309 ! For a 472 grain gold tip air strike 

The hoyts and Mathews were in the 295’s (294/295/296)
All new hoyts and both vxr 

Prime black 5 303

I ordered the prime and have been shooting for a month
Just sold it
Very nice bow, just something “different” about it and the grip 
Feels like taking a shower with ur socks on .

I actually have the mach1 coming in 6 weeks (so I’m told)
First PSE ever
Almost bought the evoke last year but was nervous about all the unknowns 

Either way we shoot what we like
We all ask what others think like it even matters lol
Everyone will say something different 


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## PJC15 (Aug 18, 2015)

Like what was stated before, buy what you like. Honestly, bows are so good these days it doesn't really matter. Below are the reasons I personally went with the RX4 Ultra. 
- I like to tune myself and for me personally, it tunes to my liking the best out of all bows. I like yokes a lot and probably won't own a bow that doesn't have yokes. I like to tinker and top hats and shims are not my cup of tea. Vertical nock travel is the best I have seen to date from any bow I have owned which is a lot.
- Grip - best grip for me, very forgiving and feels great.
- Carbon - I hunt out west and carry my bow. Makes a huge difference in cold weather and like the shot feel.
- Weight - still lighter than most mainstream aluminums. I don't like a light bow anyways and the Hoyt has great balance. Weight is a good thing when shooting in the wind. First bow I have had that I haven't put a back bar on which keeps it lighter than bows I have had previously.
- Pin float - holds like a rock
- I really hate a huge dump in the back wall especially when you can hear it. Most bows that have a hard dump make a noise and when your 15 yards from a bedded mule deer, they can hear that. I've learned this the hard way.


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## BigZsquatchin (Nov 5, 2017)

THE ELKMAN said:


> Good because it's not a "carbon"...











Looks pretty carbon to me?



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## BigZsquatchin (Nov 5, 2017)

PJC15 said:


> Like what was stated before, buy what you like. Honestly, bows are so good these days it doesn't really matter. Below are the reasons I personally went with the RX4 Ultra.
> - I like to tune myself and for me personally, it tunes to my liking the best out of all bows. I like yokes a lot and probably won't own a bow that doesn't have yokes. I like to tinker and top hats and shims are not my cup of tea. Vertical nock travel is the best I have seen to date from any bow I have owned which is a lot.
> - Grip - best grip for me, very forgiving and feels great.
> - Carbon - I hunt out west and carry my bow. Makes a huge difference in cold weather and like the shot feel.
> ...


All great points!
Let’s see it !


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## spike camp (Jun 2, 2008)

BigZsquatchin said:


> View attachment 7083737
> 
> 
> Looks pretty carbon to me?
> ...



They’re not actually carbon.
Bowtech uses a resin (plastic) with carbon fibers mixed in...or something like that. 
Those risers have been known to warp.


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## PJC15 (Aug 18, 2015)

1 2 NV said:


> And the award for the dumbest thing I've read today goes to this guy.
> 
> Because that's how he needs to get a mental victory. By doing something you're not supposed to do with any bow.
> 
> ...


Its actually a very valid point. Obviously dry firing a bow is a bad idea regardless but it goes to show which bow is tougher. When your on a 10 day back country hunt, this is a very important factor for me.


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## BigZsquatchin (Nov 5, 2017)

spike camp said:


> They’re not actually carbon.
> Bowtech uses a resin (plastic) with carbon fibers mixed in...or something like that.
> Those risers have been known to warp.


Lmao that’s messed up!


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## spike camp (Jun 2, 2008)

PJC15 said:


> Its actually a very valid point. Obviously dry firing a bow is a bad idea regardless but it goes to show which bow is more tougher. When your on a 10 day back country hunt, this is a very important factor for me.


But in reality, it’s a moot point...because there haven’t been issues with PSE’s risers, and the latest version is their strongest.
You’re just assuming the RX4 riser is stronger, too.

When Hoyt dry fire tests their bows, do you realize they need to replace components...such as the harness?
The RISER can withstand the abuse...other parts, not so much.


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## PJC15 (Aug 18, 2015)

spike camp said:


> But in reality, it’s a moot point...because there haven’t been issues with PSE’s risers, and the latest version is their strongest.
> You’re just assuming the RX4 riser is stronger, too.


It's the other components that take a beating. Most of the mass weight in a bow is in the limb pockets, limbs and cams. From a durability standpoint, this is where Hoyt shines. There really isn't much weight to the risers. For either company to shave weight, it really has to come from shaving down the other components.


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## ontarget7 (Dec 30, 2009)

spike camp said:


> But in reality, it’s a moot point...because there haven’t been issues with PSE’s risers, and the latest version is their strongest.
> You’re just assuming the RX4 riser is stronger, too.
> 
> When Hoyt dry fire tests their bows, do you realize they need to replace components...such as the harness?
> The RISER can withstand the abuse...other parts, not so much.


That is rare to even replace the harness. Without question, they don’t get any tougher when holding up to a dry fire 


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## spike camp (Jun 2, 2008)

PJC15 said:


> It's the other components that take a beating. Most of the mass weight in a bow is in the limb pockets, limbs and cams. From a durability standpoint, this is where Hoyt shines. There really isn't much weight to the risers. For either company to shave weight, it really has to come from shaving down the other components.




I don’t believe this to be accurate, when discussing the 2020 Hoyt carbon risers.


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## Chamacat (Apr 11, 2019)

Yep..I didn't know that the Mach 1 had as option of putting a SE cam on..It does not show it in the 2020 catalogue..How are you guys doing that? Thanks


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## spike camp (Jun 2, 2008)

ontarget7 said:


> That is rare to even replace the harness. Without question, they don’t get any tougher when holding up to a dry fire
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



I wouldn’t necessarily disagree, but unless we’re going to sit around and dryfire our bows, it’s a moot point.


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## bigbucks170 (Feb 2, 2006)

Chamacat said:


> Yep..I didn't know that the Mach 1 had as option of putting a SE cam on..It does not show it in the 2020 catalogue..How are you guys doing that? Thanks


PSE custom shop ..maybe next year might be an option


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## PJC15 (Aug 18, 2015)

spike camp said:


> I don’t believe this to be accurate, when discussing the 2020 Hoyt carbon risers.


What part do you not believe to be accurate? The heavier limbs, heavier limb pockets and beefier cams are whats making the Hoyt a good bit heavier than the Mach 1. The Mach 1 riser is definitely lighter than the Hoyt, you can see that by just observing how much slimmer it is. Im willing to bet that at least 50% of the weight difference is in the components.


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## PJC15 (Aug 18, 2015)

spike camp said:


> I wouldn’t necessarily disagree, but unless we’re going to sit around and dryfire our bows, it’s a moot point.


Dryfire or not it proves which one is tougher.


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## spike camp (Jun 2, 2008)

PJC15 said:


> What part do you not believe to be accurate? The heavier limbs, heavier limb pockets and beefier cams are whats making the Hoyt a good bit heavier than the Mach 1. The Mach 1 riser is definitely lighter than the Hoyt, you can see that by just observing how much slimmer it is. Im willing to bet that at least 50% of the weight difference is in the components.



I think if you were to chop up your RX4 you’d find imbedded aluminum, especially in the ends of the risers.
The original Hoyt Carbon was 3.6?
I don’t think the latest Hoyt Carbon is close to a pound heavier due to heavier cams and limbs.

In other words, in my opinion, the riser is where the majority of the additional weight is originating from.


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## spike camp (Jun 2, 2008)

PJC15 said:


> Dryfire or not it proves which one is tougher.


Again, a moot point unless we have a dry fire contest....and even then we’re just assuming.

I’m not badmouthing Hoyt at all(except for the blatant misrepresentation of weight)
I think they’ve produced fantastic offerings for 2020.


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## PJC15 (Aug 18, 2015)

spike camp said:


> I think if you were to chop up your RX4 you’d find imbedded aluminum, especially in the ends of the risers.
> The original Hoyt Carbon was 3.6?
> I don’t think the latest Hoyt Carbon is close to a pound heavier due to heavier cams and limbs.
> 
> In other words, in my opinion, the riser is where the majority of the additional weight is originating from.


I disagree because there is a 1 oz difference between the Ultra and the Alpha. The Ultra riser is a good bit longer. The original Hoyt carbon may have been 3.6 but limbs were thinner, limb pockets were smaller and cams were smaller. The new draw stop mods on the Hoyts add some weight compared to what they had previously. The strings Hoyt now uses are thicker as well. Like I said before, My Ultra with 80lb limbs which are heavier than the other limbs is weighing in at 4.3 bare. For me, that is great for a 34" bow.


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## bigbucks170 (Feb 2, 2006)

PJC15 said:


> Dryfire or not it proves which one is tougher.


if I was buying a bow to drive my jeep over it ..Hoyt would be my choice :wink:another strange ritual Hoyt shooter like doing 
no doubt Hoyt Carbons are tough ..I am more interested in mounting a sight on it straight and plum and accuracy ...


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## V-TRAIN (Feb 27, 2009)

Chamacat said:


> Yep..I didn't know that the Mach 1 had as option of putting a SE cam on..It does not show it in the 2020 catalogue..How are you guys doing that? Thanks


$200 upcharge for SE on that bow cause it is not considered a option, and has to go thru custom shop.
i am getting SE on my NXT 33 cause i have T-Rex arms and need all the help i can get.


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## spike camp (Jun 2, 2008)

PJC15 said:


> I disagree because there is a 1 oz difference between the Ultra and the Alpha. The Ultra riser is a good bit longer. The original Hoyt carbon may have been 3.6 but limbs were thinner, limb pockets were smaller and cams were smaller. The new draw stop mods on the Hoyts add some weight compared to what they had previously. The strings Hoyt now uses are thicker as well. Like I said before, My Ultra with 80lb limbs which are heavier than the other limbs is weighing in at 4.3 bare. For me, that is great for a 34" bow.



What do the equivalent Hoyt aluminum offering weigh?


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## PJC15 (Aug 18, 2015)

spike camp said:


> What do the equivalent Hoyt aluminum offering weigh?


The only other one I weighed was the Axius Ultra which was 4.86

There is probably on average 5-6 ounce difference in weight between the Ultra offerings and I am guessing to be probably 3-4 ounce difference on the shorter offerings.

The weight difference don't sound like a lot but in the hand its very noticeable.


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## spike camp (Jun 2, 2008)

PJC15 said:


> The only other one I weighed was the Axius Ultra which was 4.86


Does the Axius use the same pockets, cams and limbs as the carbon?


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## PJC15 (Aug 18, 2015)

spike camp said:


> Does the Axius use the same pockets, cams and limbs as the carbon?


Yes


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## spike camp (Jun 2, 2008)

PJC15 said:


> Yes


Hmmm...you’d think all else being equal, a carbon riser would be substantially lighter than an aluminum riser


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## PJC15 (Aug 18, 2015)

spike camp said:


> Hmmm...you’d think all else being equal, a carbon riser would be substantially lighter than an aluminum riser


Nope. If you go back in time with the older Hoyt carbons, there has only been 2-3 ounces of difference between the shorter offering carbons and aluminums. My carbon spyder was only 2 ounces lighter than the aluminum spyder. Now on the the longer offerings (33-35") there is more weight savings. 

I could honestly care less about weight. If the carbon weighed the same as aluminum I would still buy the carbon. Honestly, I don't like how light the PSE carbons are. I feel I would have to add a bunch of weight to it to perform the way I want. 

Call me a pansy but I went on a cold North Dakota mule deer hunt this year with my Prime CT5 and my hands froze carrying that bow around. All of my previous years out west have been with carbon and never had a problem. For that reason alone I will have a carbon. I messed up 2 stalks this year. One because I decided to put the bow on my pack because I was tired of my hands getting cold. Popped over the ridge where the deer was bedded and he was already standing. If the bow was in my hand I would of had a 35 yard chip shot. The other was my tight spot falling off. Went to go on a stock after glassing and realized I had no arrows! Had to go retrace my steps and took 25 minutes to find that damn quiver. So there are 3 things I learned about bows after hunting out west the last 12 years. 1. If you are within close range of a deer, they can hear your bow hit the back wall. 2. Carbon makes life a lot easier on the hands. 3. No more detachable quivers.


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## spike camp (Jun 2, 2008)

I fully agree on the benefits of carbon.
Most scoff at the warmth thing, but it’s a huge benefit...but a distant second to weigh savings!

I don’t see myself owning an aluminum riser again.
Bought my first Hoyt Carbon in 2010 and haven’t owned an aluminum since.


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## bigbucks170 (Feb 2, 2006)

if being Carbon matters to you, there is only one bow thats all Carbon Monocoque riser ...other is a mix of aluminum, glue, carbon
pieces and plastic grip..hard to enjoy the benefits of carbon with all that .....but if you do enjoy


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## blakeman (Dec 7, 2006)

So is the Mach 1 worth waiting 12 weeks? vs the 4 weeks maybe less if your lucky with the RX-4? Is one more forgiving than the other?


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## spike camp (Jun 2, 2008)

The lead time is irrelevant, and forgiveness is subjective...
They’re both awesome bows, pick your poison.


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## Kris87 (Sep 12, 2003)

PJC15 said:


> Honestly, I don't like how light the PSE carbons are. I feel I would have to add a bunch of weight to it to perform the way I want.



That's the biggest benefit that you seem to be overlooking. You can take a light bow and add weight to it how you want. You can't take a heavy bow and remove weight. The biggest benefit to me with a light carbon bow is being able to add good weight to your back bar to help hold on target, and the bow still doesn't end up weighing like a tank. Then the bow is better balanced and holds better. Big win for the overall package.


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## Chamacat (Apr 11, 2019)

Yep..Last year I had a choice of EC or SE cams my choice for the same money on a 2019 Evoke 35...SO..The Mach 1 comes along and you can get the SE cam but it will cost the archer an additional $200.00..really?...If PSE would have charged for the upgraded cams on the 2019 Evoke 35 I would understand more so on the 2020 flagship bows..I still haven't seen a Mach 1 yet..And fairly disappointed over the $200.00 SE cam..If one of these bows comes through the classifieds..I highly doubt that a seller get's squat for the SE Cam upgrade..The bow is already at $1600.00..Again it's just hard to accept..When the cam was a "FREE" choice option 250 days ago..FWIW


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## PJC15 (Aug 18, 2015)

Kris87 said:


> That's the biggest benefit that you seem to be overlooking. You can take a light bow and add weight to it how you want. You can't take a heavy bow and remove weight. The biggest benefit to me with a light carbon bow is being able to add good weight to your back bar to help hold on target, and the bow still doesn't end up weighing like a tank. Then the bow is better balanced and holds better. Big win for the overall package.


Not overlooking it at all which is why I prefer the RX4 Ultra. It has the least amount of positive weight out of any bow I have owned in the last 10 years because of how it balances and weighs.


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## wbates (Jul 24, 2010)

V-TRAIN said:


> Chamacat said:
> 
> 
> > Yep..I didn't know that the Mach 1 had as option of putting a SE cam on..It does not show it in the 2020 catalogue..How are you guys doing that? Thanks
> ...


Interested in that cam as well. Imagine it’s not as smooth. Wonder what the speed difference is


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## Chamacat (Apr 11, 2019)

Yep speaking for the 2019 Evoke 35 as listed by PSE

Evoke 35 EC is at IBO speed 320 FPS
Evoke 35 SE is at IBO speed 327 FPS

Carbon Air Stealth EC IBO speed 334 FPS
Carbon Air Stealth SE IBO speed 332 FPS @ 29 1/2 inches

That's right out of the 2019 PSE Catalogue

The 2020 Mach 1 is at IBO speed 324 FPS with an EC cam 

Don't know what a SE will perform..FWIW


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## V-TRAIN (Feb 27, 2009)

wbates said:


> Interested in that cam as well. Imagine it’s not as smooth. Wonder what the speed difference is


I was kinda worried about it honestly cause I ordered a 80#.
I have 3 Evolve cam bows and never tried the SE.
About a month ago I bought a Evoke 35 with SE cams just to test it (I am a lefty).
I shot it a bunch back to back with my Evolve 35 with EC cams, then sold the Evoke about 2 weeks later.

I couldn't tell much if any difference stiffness wise between those two cams.
The cycle at 80% felt the same to me also, I saw no night and day difference.
Now I have a short draw length (27"), maybe at 29" there is more of a difference between those two cams, it could very well be a difference in that regards. That seems to kinda be the case with other brands, it depends on draw length on how they feel.


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## Doebuster (Mar 5, 2006)

Here's a review of all the 2020 flagship bows ! https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=A68VBxybMfs. The pse weighed 3.6 on this review the Hoyt weighed 4.6 and was 10 fps slower than the Mach 1 ! I guess his scales are off ! I love the comment. " I'll be taking my bow to Alaska " if some how this proves that the Hoyt is a superior bow ! Lol there both really nice bows I've owned a lot of Hoyt carbons since they came out and would not tell anyone it's a bad bow they shoot nice . I just would like to see Hoyt be honest in there advertising !


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## PAKraig (Sep 19, 2005)

Doebuster said:


> Here's a review of all the 2020 flagship bows ! https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=A68VBxybMfs. The pse weighed 3.6 on this review the Hoyt weighed 4.6 and was 10 fps slower than the Mach 1 ! I guess his scales are off ! I love the comment. " I'll be taking my bow to Alaska " if some how this proves that the Hoyt is a superior bow ! Lol there both really nice bows I've owned a lot of Hoyt carbons since they came out and would not tell anyone it's a bad bow they shoot nice . I just would like to see Hoyt be honest in there advertising !


Yeah, cuz that guy's an authority


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## spike camp (Jun 2, 2008)

PAKraig said:


> Yeah, cuz that guy's an authority


Actually, John Lusk produces the most accurate and informational reviews on the internet that I’ve seen, and also he seems very unbiased.

Additionally, if you think about it logically(as far as the weights go) the scale and calibration of the scale is moot because the weight differences are all that are really applicable.
It doesn’t matter if his scale is (for example) 2 ounces off in either direction...it would be two ounces off in that direction for all the bows.


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## PJC15 (Aug 18, 2015)

You pansies care waaay to much about weight. Do you weigh your tampons and underware before you head out to hunt?

I will go weigh them again this weekend when I pick my new arrows up. It’s not what you all think.


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## spike camp (Jun 2, 2008)

PJC15 said:


> You pansies care waaay to much about weight. Do you weigh your tampons and underware before you head out to hunt?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk




Lol, you called yourself a pansy because of the warmth thing...

Weight matters, and so does misleading advertising.

Bottom line, PSE crushed it this year AND their specs are accurate.


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## PJC15 (Aug 18, 2015)

The warmth thing is valid. I hate wearing thick gloves. Honestly the PSE feels cheap. Yeah it’s light but so are all of the components IMO. It definitely doesn’t tune as good as the hoyt, has a bad dump in the back wall, worse grip and worse pin float. If all those things are worth giving up because of weight then I’m just different than you.


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## sambone (Mar 12, 2014)

PJC15 said:


> You pansies care waaay to much about weight. Do you weigh your tampons and underware before you head out to hunt?
> 
> I will go weigh them again this weekend when I pick my new arrows up. It’s not what you all think.
> 
> ...


One would think that carrying all that extra weight around would keep you from getting cold so easy.. Pansy. Im joking, but I do like a light, warm bow because Im a total pansy in both areas.. signed, weak and cold


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## spike camp (Jun 2, 2008)

I


PJC15 said:


> The warmth thing is valid. I hate wearing thick gloves. Honestly the PSE feels cheap. Yeah it’s light but so are all of the components IMO. It definitely doesn’t tune as good as the hoyt, has a bad dump in the back wall, worse grip and worse pin float. If all those things are worth giving up because of weight then I’m just different than you.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk




The warmth thing, and weight distribution kris brought up are both valid( no cherry pickin’)

What’s a pse limb weight compared to a Hoyt limb?
Definitely use the official calibrated postage scale for that

Grip, subjective.
Pin float...how were both bows set up?

It keeps going lol!


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## Kris87 (Sep 12, 2003)

When my Mach 1 arrives(I have a RX4 waiting to tune), I'll do a comparison. Going to tune both, weigh both, chrono both. Everyone knows I'm not biased...all my videos are uncut cause I don't do NO editing!


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## PJC15 (Aug 18, 2015)

spike camp said:


> I
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I’m guessing the $1500 scale I used isn’t good enough? The LCA handheld provided almost identical weights and the Allen digital scale was inconsistent.

Honestly, none of the bows we are comparing are close enough. The Alpha is sub 30”, Ultra is 34” and Mach 1 is 32”. I personally wouldnt own anything less than 34” and it has to have yokes. 


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## dgballweg (Feb 7, 2017)

PJC15 said:


> spike camp said:
> 
> 
> > I
> ...


We get it. Your a Hoyt fanboy. Every single thing that the PSE has going for it compared to the Hoyt, you justify in your own head why the Hoyt is better. Who cares? Shoot what you like but there is no way I’d ever buy a 4.6 pound carbon bow in ANY brand. I don’t care how it holds or tunes, by the time it’s set up it’s going to be way too heavy for my liking. Also you keep saying everyone’s scales but yours are wrong except how comes they are only wrong on the RX4? If the scales are off, BOTH bows would be wrong but the PSE still comes in at 3.5-3.6?


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## spike camp (Jun 2, 2008)

All I know is there is approximately a pound difference between the RX4 and the Mach 1 and that amount of a difference I highly doubt is coming from the pockets and limbs.

Hoyt built their riser bomb proof...and considering the amount of issues Hoyt has had, I’m glad they nailed their current carbon.
It’s awesome, but stupid heavy for a carbon.

Pick yer poison, and consider ourselves fortunate that we have such awesome choices.


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## iceman14 (Jan 25, 2011)

Is the butthurt so strong in here because Dudley left? Is that what happened? 
Hoyt hasn’t done a damn thing in years. 



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## PJC15 (Aug 18, 2015)

dgballweg said:


> We get it. Your a Hoyt fanboy. Every single thing that the PSE has going for it compared to the Hoyt, you justify in your own head why the Hoyt is better. Who cares? Shoot what you like but there is no way I’d ever buy a 4.6 pound carbon bow in ANY brand. I don’t care how it holds or tunes, by the time it’s set up it’s going to be way too heavy for my liking. Also you keep saying everyone’s scales but yours are wrong except how comes they are only wrong on the RX4? If the scales are off, BOTH bows would be wrong but the PSE still comes in at 3.5-3.6?


Hard to be a fan boy when this is the first hoyt I’ve owned in 4 years wilth probably 10 others of different brands between. I’ve shot the Mach 1 and don’t care for the big dump it has and I would have to add a back bar to it for it to be balanced the way I like. It would actually probably end up heavier than my ultra. Not sure how many different ways I can weigh mine to prove the point they are in the 4.2-4.3 range.


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## PJC15 (Aug 18, 2015)

spike camp said:


> I
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Weight distribution is subjective and most of the time I use a back bar. I’m done with those and prefer never to use one again.

Grip - I bet if you blindfolded people the strong majority would pick the hoyt.

Pin float - both with sight, rest and 6” bee stinger stab.

Was comparing the Mach 1 to ultra though. Longer bow should have the edge anyways.


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## PJC15 (Aug 18, 2015)

iceman14 said:


> Is the butthurt so strong in here because Dudley left? Is that what happened?
> Hoyt hasn’t done a damn thing in years.
> 
> 
> ...


Please elaborate. What has anyone done that’s been so groundbreaking 


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## BigZsquatchin (Nov 5, 2017)

Kris87 said:


> When my Mach 1 arrives(I have a RX4 waiting to tune), I'll do a comparison. Going to tune both, weigh both, chrono both. Everyone knows I'm not biased...all my videos are uncut cause I don't do NO editing!


I want to see this for sure
I’m waiting my first PSE ever and still surprised when I think about buying one 


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## BigZsquatchin (Nov 5, 2017)

dgballweg said:


> We get it. Your a Hoyt fanboy. Every single thing that the PSE has going for it compared to the Hoyt, you justify in your own head why the Hoyt is better. Who cares? Shoot what you like but there is no way I’d ever buy a 4.6 pound carbon bow in ANY brand. I don’t care how it holds or tunes, by the time it’s set up it’s going to be way too heavy for my liking. Also you keep saying everyone’s scales but yours are wrong except how comes they are only wrong on the RX4? If the scales are off, BOTH bows would be wrong but the PSE still comes in at 3.5-3.6?


I agree
I routinely lift over 100 lbs for work
Do physical labor every day all day
Am in good shape and workout
Still wouldn’t buy a carbon bow that weighs hairs away from the $400 cheaper aluminum version
Why??? They’re getting you on misadvertised specs ? U like the grip? I like hoyts grip too but that’s it
The aluminum bows have a lot of twisted limbs 
The carbons just not worth it

Honestly I always thought I’d never own a PSE 
But this is mathews and hoyt country here in central Indiana
PSE is a small pie slice in my area

After comparing them all I chose the PSE 
We all like what we like but u can’t talk crap about the PSE because the hoyt out-specs it 
Hoyt has been falsely advertising their weights for awhile now
My good buddy loves his rx3
It looks nice yes
But in a game where specs collide I choose PSE
Warranty just as good or better
Am I vag for not wanting to tote a bow around that weighs 1lb more? Ur call
I saddle hunt too so mobility is key
And u know we shave weight 


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## iceman14 (Jan 25, 2011)

PJC15 said:


> Please elaborate. What has anyone done that’s been so groundbreaking
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Mathews switch weight mods and bowtechs deadlock system are nothing to scoff at. 


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## IVhunter (Jun 5, 2009)

Well, PSE has a built an ALL carbon riser that is extremely light, very stiff, and has done it all IN-HOUSE in the USA. Nobody else is doing that, so I’d consider that ground breaking. 

Hoyt has a nice offering but the two carbon options between the companies are significantly different. A lot of nonsense in this thread for sure, so shoot what you like and have fun. 


PJC15 said:


> Please elaborate. What has anyone done that’s been so groundbreaking
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## PJC15 (Aug 18, 2015)

iceman14 said:


> Mathews switch weight mods and bowtechs deadlock system are nothing to scoff at.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Switch weights are a joke. All they do is make for a stiffer draw cycle than without. Don’t know anyone who needs to change from there peak draw weight.

Deadlock is pointless for most too. You still need a press for cam timing and its added parts.


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## iceman14 (Jan 25, 2011)

PJC15 said:


> Switch weights are a joke. All they do is make for a stiffer draw cycle than without. Don’t know anyone who needs to change from there peak draw weight.
> 
> Deadlock is pointless for most too. You still need a press for cam timing and it added parts.
> 
> ...


You’re either 100% clueless or just ignorant. It’s a tossup at this point which one it could be. 


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## PJC15 (Aug 18, 2015)

iceman14 said:


> You’re either 100% clueless or just ignorant. It’s a tossup at this point which one it could be.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


It’s neither bud. 

Fact is switch weights cause a little stiffer draw cycle. I’ve owed them and know the draw force curves. Deadlock is added parts that aren’t needed for someone that knows how to tune a bow.


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## Hogfeeder (Feb 22, 2020)

I've shot the PSE and the Ultra. My pick is the Hoyt Ultra. I prefer the backwall and dead in the hand feel of the Hoyt over the PSE


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## BigZsquatchin (Nov 5, 2017)

IVhunter said:


> Well, PSE has a built an ALL carbon riser that is extremely light, very stiff, and has done it all IN-HOUSE in the USA. Nobody else is doing that, so I’d consider that ground breaking.
> 
> Hoyt has a nice offering but the two carbon options between the companies are significantly different. A lot of nonsense in this thread for sure, so shoot what you like and have fun.


I’m with this for sure!
PSE has accomplished a lot 

And kick a s s they’re doing it in house in the USA
I’ll mean that more when my bow shows up 

Mathews switchweights I love though
If u haven’t tried them u got to
Nothing like being able to shoot 70lbs for whitetail
Kick up to 75 for longer shots 
Drop to 65 for turkeys or plinking 
All with 4 screws  
And u can’t beat them for smooooooth

Bow tech I’m not sold on yet
There’s a lot going on there
Kinda like looking up a tranny’s mini skirt
I don’t know from experience but the assumption is there’s a lot of crap that shouldn’t be there

I’m not dissing bow tech the Sr6 was fun to try
Just wouldn’t want to mess with it in the field
Then again it’s new to me

We tend to shun what we don’t know 


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## eilermmt (Sep 4, 2019)

PJC15 said:


> It’s neither bud.
> 
> Fact is switch weights cause a little stiffer draw cycle. I’ve owed them and know the draw force curves. Deadlock is added parts that aren’t needed for someone that knows how to tune a bow.
> 
> ...


I actually agree with this a lot. Look at PSE's LAS system which is novel to the deadlock system... people *HATED* it. Anyone that needs more than 10 lb out of their bow switching weights is shooting too much or too little weight to begin with and taking turns in or out of tillers is easier than switching mods IMO. 

You will always need a press to set cam timing which takes care of your vertical nock travel assuming correct nock location and spine. Basically pick your poison when setting horizontal nock travel, do you prefer shimming cams or yoke tuning? I personally prefer a yoke, it's easier IMO and also offers you some fine timing adjustment when setting vertical nock travel.


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## NCAVI8TOR (Oct 5, 2003)

Hogfeeder said:


> I've shot the PSE and the Ultra. My pick is the Hoyt Ultra. I prefer the backwall and dead in the hand feel of the Hoyt over the PSE


Me too! Owned a PSE Evoke briefly last year and although the cam system was easy to adjust, I will not own one again in the near future. It just felt cheap to me for some reason and the grip did not work for my hand at all. I have a RX-4 and just ordered a RX-4 Ultra for taking out West. The Hoyts fit me and are built extremely well. I never look at weight of the bow when making a bow buying decision. There are several other advantages to carbon besides weight and in my opinion Hoyt builds the better bow. 

NC



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## NCAVI8TOR (Oct 5, 2003)

eilermmt said:


> I actually agree with this a lot. Look at PSE's LAS system which is novel to the deadlock system... people *HATED* it. Anyone that needs more than 10 lb out of their bow switching weights is shooting too much or too little weight to begin with and taking turns in or out of tillers is easier than switching mods IMO.
> 
> You will always need a press to set cam timing which takes care of your vertical nock travel assuming correct nock location and spine. Basically pick your poison when setting horizontal nock travel, do you prefer shimming cams or yoke tuning? I personally prefer a yoke, it's easier IMO and also offers you some fine timing adjustment when setting vertical nock travel.


Agree!! I also prefer yokes and my Realm X is still the best Bowtech I have owned in many years! 

NC

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## bigbucks170 (Feb 2, 2006)

NCAVI8TOR said:


> Me too! Owned a PSE Evoke briefly last year and although the cam system was easy to adjust, I will not own one again in the near future. It just felt cheap to me for some reason and the grip did not work for my hand at all. I have a RX-4 and just ordered a RX-4 Ultra for taking out West. The Hoyts fit me and are built extremely well. I never look at weight of the bow when making a bow buying decision. There are several other advantages to carbon besides weight and in my opinion Hoyt builds the better bow.
> 
> NC
> 
> ...



I know you owned a Hoyt RX3 briefly too ? did it feel cheap to you too ? very curious .. why you got rid of your RX3 so fast


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## NCAVI8TOR (Oct 5, 2003)

bigbucks170 said:


> I know you owned a Hoyt RX3 briefly too ? did it feel cheap to you too ? very curious .. why you got rid of your RX3 so fast


Kept it for a year and hunted with it the entire season. Never had a Hoyt that felt cheap! I had to send it back because of a noise issue but Hoyt CS fixed it beautifully without any issues!! I sold it because of upgrading to the RX-4.

NC

NC

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## rmscustom (Mar 7, 2011)

iceman14 said:


> Is the butthurt so strong in here because Dudley left? Is that what happened?
> Hoyt hasn’t done a damn thing in years.
> 
> 
> ...


Hoyt has done a lot! Who else has made 5 new cams in 5yrs and are almost back to as good as they were 6yrs ago! Haha


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## BigZsquatchin (Nov 5, 2017)

rmscustom said:


> Hoyt has done a lot! Who else has made 5 new cams in 5yrs and are almost back to as good as they were 6yrs ago! Haha
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


[emoji1787][emoji1787][emoji1787]


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## The Old Guy (Mar 28, 2017)

PJC15 said:


> Switch weights are a joke. All they do is make for a stiffer draw cycle than without. Don’t know anyone who needs to change from there peak draw weight.
> 
> Deadlock is pointless for most too. You still need a press for cam timing and its added parts.


Now you do. Switch weight mods work great for different applications, especially with the Garmin Xero sight. 5 minutes and a push of a button, I can be pulling 70# for early hunting, or 50# for late season or 3-D.


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## PJC15 (Aug 18, 2015)

The Old Guy said:


> Now you do. Switch weight mods work great for different applications, especially with the Garmin Xero sight. 5 minutes and a push of a button, I can be pulling 70# for early hunting, or 50# for late season or 3-D.


For you it may work great. For the strong majority, most don’t change there draw weight. And like I said, switch weights cause a stiffer draw cycle than without. 


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## spike camp (Jun 2, 2008)

PJC15 said:


> For you it may work great. For the strong majority, most don’t change there draw weight. And like I said, switch weights cause a stiffer draw cycle than without.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk




How much of a difference is there between a ‘stiffer’ draw cycle and more draw weight?


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## PJC15 (Aug 18, 2015)

spike camp said:


> How much of a difference is there between a ‘stiffer’ draw cycle and drawing more weight?


That’s another can of worms. To put it simple, yes. 


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## The Old Guy (Mar 28, 2017)

PJC15 said:


> For you it may work great. For the strong majority, most don’t change there draw weight. And like I said, switch weights cause a stiffer draw cycle than without.


Could it be that the "strong majority" never have access to this technology before, so they never messed with it? I think when switch weight mods are properly understood, they will be greatly utilized.


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## PJC15 (Aug 18, 2015)

The Old Guy said:


> Could it be that the "strong majority" never have access to this technology before, so they never messed with it? I think when switch weight mods are properly understood, they will be greatly utilized.


I disagree. Who wants to sacrifice a smoother draw cylce when the strong majority don’t change draw weight. 


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## eilermmt (Sep 4, 2019)

The Old Guy said:


> Could it be that the "strong majority" never have access to this technology before, so they never messed with it? I think when switch weight mods are properly understood, they will be greatly utilized.


Are people forgetting that your bow allows for 10 lb of variance in draw weight with tiller bolt turns by default?


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## PJC15 (Aug 18, 2015)

eilermmt said:


> Are people forgetting that your bow allows for 10 lb of variance in draw weight with tiller bolt turns by default?


Exactly 


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## spike camp (Jun 2, 2008)

PJC15 said:


> Exactly
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



Does ATA,BH and draw length change when swapping switch weight mods like it does when turning out limb bolts 10 pounds?


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## eilermmt (Sep 4, 2019)

spike camp said:


> Does ATA,BH and draw length change when swapping switch weight mods like it does when turning out limb bolts 10 pounds?


I would guess not but you are going to see that efficiency change somewhere in the bow... 

To be truthful I have never measured the change in ATA, BH or DL when I back my limb bolts out but whatever that change is (I can't imagine ATA changing more than 0.25" at MAX) I can not tell the difference. If I were to notice a change in my anchor with regards to DL I am sure I could make up the difference fairly easily by adding a few twists to my string no problem.


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## The Old Guy (Mar 28, 2017)

spike camp said:


> Does ATA,BH and draw length change when swapping switch weight mods like it does when turning out limb bolts 10 pounds?


Yes, depending on brand of bow and how many turns is needed to achieve the desired draw weight, brace height and draw length certainly change.


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## spike camp (Jun 2, 2008)

The Old Guy said:


> Yes, depending on brand of bow and how many turns is needed to achieve the desired draw weight, brace height and draw length certainly change.


I’m asking if those changes occur when you go from 70-50 when utilizing your switch weight mods....


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## vmals (Jul 24, 2018)

spike camp said:


> I’m asking if those changes occur when you go from 70-50 when utilizing your switch weight mods....


No change in ata or bh if the bolts are all the way down going from 60-65-70-75. It will going to 50 because they only way to get there would be using 60 mods and backing the limb bolts out.


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## spike camp (Jun 2, 2008)

vmals said:


> No change in ata or bh if the bolts are all the way down going from 60-65-70-75. It will going to 50 because they only way to get there would be using 60 mods and backing the limb bolts out.


Thanks for the reply.


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## BigZsquatchin (Nov 5, 2017)

I don’t change a lot on my setups but it’s nice for guys hat shoot 70 that want a little more sack to shoot further or flatter to pop the 75lb mods on

Bow is most efficient with limbs all the way down so to me I’d rather switch 2 simply changed mods and try different weights
Especially with the heavy arrow craze that has hit now, ur bow may not perform the same when u add 100 grains. I’m putting 75lb mods on my bow because I was going to shoot 80 lb limbs but not buying a hoyt again. Why shoot 80lb limbs ?? I realize it won’t make my manhood any larger or get me a model wife
I choose to shoot more weight because I’m mid 30’s and in my prime/ physically able to do it

75lb mods get me to 77lbs and if I don’t like it I’m not committed to limbs and cam swaps [emoji6]

As far as “vast majority” goes

The vast majority won’t be with me when I draw back on a back

The vast majority isn’t paying for my gear

And the “vast majority” around me is different than the “vast majority” ur experiencing close to u 

All of our opinions suck guys do what makes u happy 


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## BucksnBass525 (Feb 21, 2009)

I shoot 60lbs, but with the RX4 or any Evolve cam I could comfortably shoot 70lbs. Switch weight not happening, not comfortably anyway.

I can say without hesitation no matter what Switch Weight mod is installed, "Vast Majority" will pick the Hoyt and PSE draw cycle hands down!!

Actually my SR6 in performance draws smoother then any of the 2019 or 2020 Mathews.

And it's not close.


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## BigZsquatchin (Nov 5, 2017)

BucksnBass525 said:


> I shoot 60lbs, but with the RX4 or any Evolve cam I could comfortably shoot 70lbs. Switch weight not happening, not comfortably anyway.
> 
> I can say without hesitation no matter what Switch Weight mod is installed, "Vast Majority" will pick the Hoyt and PSE draw cycle hands down!!
> 
> ...


Says your hands
Your vast majority comment would get shut down here in any of the pro shops within an hour of me 
But it’s regional bub
I hate hoyts draw cycle personally
I like the evolve cam though [emoji6]


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## ontarget7 (Dec 30, 2009)

BucksnBass525 said:


> I shoot 60lbs, but with the RX4 or any Evolve cam I could comfortably shoot 70lbs. Switch weight not happening, not comfortably anyway.
> 
> I can say without hesitation no matter what Switch Weight mod is installed, "Vast Majority" will pick the Hoyt and PSE draw cycle hands down!!
> 
> ...


I would agree with this

I might even say the Ultra is the smoothest out of the bunch 


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## rmscustom (Mar 7, 2011)

ontarget7 said:


> I know a couple as well [emoji6]
> However, it’s still like zero production at this point
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Remember when rx1s were way back ordered??? 
It’s great that Hoyt got their Chinese made riser production issues figured out
PSE probably going through a few growing pains with made in house CF risers. 
Hoyt just had to figure out how to get the noodles here on a faster boat so they could glue the aluminum on to make the other half of the riser. 
No agenda. Lmao
Maybe your PSE rep reads your posts???


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## BigZsquatchin (Nov 5, 2017)

rmscustom said:


> Remember when rx1s were way back ordered???
> It’s great that Hoyt got their Chinese made riser production issues figured out
> PSE probably going through a few growing pains with made in house CF risers.
> Hoyt just had to figure out how to get the noodles here on a faster boat so they could glue the aluminum on to make the other half of the riser.
> ...


Lmao!!! Get em!!!
This is great and very true
I always thought they looked like ramen noodles [emoji1787]


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## ontarget7 (Dec 30, 2009)

rmscustom said:


> Remember when rx1s were way back ordered???
> It’s great that Hoyt got their Chinese made riser production issues figured out
> PSE probably going through a few growing pains with made in house CF risers.
> Hoyt just had to figure out how to get the noodles here on a faster boat so they could glue the aluminum on to make the other half of the riser.
> ...


Yep, quite open with all in the industry I know 


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## Summit3 (Sep 23, 2018)

rmscustom said:


> Remember when rx1s were way back ordered???
> It’s great that Hoyt got their Chinese made riser production issues figured out
> PSE probably going through a few growing pains with made in house CF risers.
> Hoyt just had to figure out how to get the noodles here on a faster boat so they could glue the aluminum on to make the other half of the riser.
> ...


I was under the impression the riser is made in Italy and the “Chinese” rumors where just loose conjectures? 


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## BigZsquatchin (Nov 5, 2017)

Summit3 said:


> I was under the impression the riser is made in Italy and the “Chinese” rumors where just loose conjectures?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


No they are made in China
Hopefully disinfected when they’re sent over
Damn that reality just hit
Better wear a mask [emoji40] 


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## rmscustom (Mar 7, 2011)

Summit3 said:


> I was under the impression the riser is made in Italy and the “Chinese” rumors where just loose conjectures?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Italian engineering. Chinese production.
Who wants to bet a USA machined aluminum riser costs more to produce than a overseas carbon fiber one??? 


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## Summit3 (Sep 23, 2018)

BigZsquatchin said:


> No they are made in China
> Hopefully disinfected when they’re sent over
> Damn that reality just hit
> Better wear a mask [emoji40]
> ...


Man just seems a like insult to injury when PSE’s Carbon MSRP’s for $1599.99 and is made In Tucson,AZ and Hoyts MSRP’s for $1749.00 and is made in god knows where China. $150 cheaper initially and made in the US. 


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## Summit3 (Sep 23, 2018)

rmscustom said:


> Italian engineering. Chinese production.
> Who wants to bet a USA machined aluminum riser costs more to produce than a overseas carbon fiber one???
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


You might be on to something there


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## BigZsquatchin (Nov 5, 2017)

rmscustom said:


> Italian engineering. Chinese production.
> Who wants to bet a USA machined aluminum riser costs more to produce than a overseas carbon fiber one???
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I bet it does
And for good reason


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## BigZsquatchin (Nov 5, 2017)

Summit3 said:


> Man just seems a like insult to injury when PSE’s Carbon MSRP’s for $1599.99 and is made In Tucson,AZ and Hoyts MSRP’s for $1749.00 and is made in god knows where China. $150 cheaper initially and made in the US.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Exactly
I’d hate to be one of the guys I. The hoyt factory unboxing the carbon foods from China [emoji855]


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## Summit3 (Sep 23, 2018)

BigZsquatchin said:


> Exactly
> I’d hate to be one of the guys I. The hoyt factory unboxing the carbon foods from China [emoji855]
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I’d be in a hazmat suit haha 


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## BigZsquatchin (Nov 5, 2017)

Summit3 said:


> I’d be in a hazmat suit haha
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


No joke 
I wonder how much of that inflated over glorified price goes back into employee safety ?
The families man
The kids ...


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## PJC15 (Aug 18, 2015)

Here is another weight test. I’m using the same LCA scale that was used before and a friends hand scale. The LCA scale was on par with the calibrated scale at the shop used prior.

These weights were taken with a QAD mounted on the bow. The advertised weight of the rest is 2.9oz. I also weighed the bottom riser shock pods and they are 1.7 ounces. If you subtract the rest and the shock pods, I am in the 4.1-4.2 ballpark. I also have an Ultra with 80# limbs. I don’t know the weight difference but the 80’s do weigh more than the other weights from what I was told.

The LCA bounced between 4.4-4.5.

Maybe I got a light one but I’ve used 5 different scales at this point. I will say that the cheaper hand scales like the black one in the picture below are not very accurate. The few that I have used have yielded varied results I weight from each time you weigh the same bow.


















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## bigbucks170 (Feb 2, 2006)

I seen a picture of Mach 1 coming out of the box weighing 3.4 with limb dampeners on ....


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## RedArrow81 (Nov 6, 2019)

My mach one is supposed to be in next week. My shop had a cancellation, and its the colour i wanted. Worked out perfectly for me. I’ll definitely weigh it when i get it. Ill be getting the bare bow since i do all my own work. Stoked to see how this performs in the mountain cold. Can’t wait to start chasing spring bear. 

Bought my wife an axium turbo too. Can’t wait to set it up for her. She doesn’t know about it yet, but she shot it and liked it, and wanted the extra speed because of her Short draw length. Can’t wait for our anniversary next month, she’ll love it. She’ll be as excited for spring bear as I am.


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## BigZsquatchin (Nov 5, 2017)

RedArrow81 said:


> My mach one is supposed to be in next week. My shop had a cancellation, and its the colour i wanted. Worked out perfectly for me. I’ll definitely weigh it when i get it. Ill be getting the bare bow since i do all my own work. Stoked to see how this performs in the mountain cold. Can’t wait to start chasing spring bear.
> 
> Bought my wife an axium turbo too. Can’t wait to set it up for her. She doesn’t know about it yet, but she shot it and liked it, and wanted the extra speed because of her Short draw length. Can’t wait for our anniversary next month, she’ll love it. She’ll be as excited for spring bear as I am.


Oh Man U got the good bow and got her the aluminum hoyt [emoji23] 
Very sneaky sir! [emoji1787][emoji1787][emoji1787]


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## Gooldylocks (Nov 15, 2018)

PJC15 said:


> Here is another weight test...
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


And here is my most recent weighing. 4.03lb with a hamskea hybrid hunter microtune, limbsaver twistlox top and bottom, an axcel XP sight bracket, and the QD for a quivalizer on the front. Weighs right at 5.5 ready to hunt with five 525gr arrows.


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## THE ELKMAN (Jan 2, 2013)

spike camp said:


> Lol, you called yourself a pansy because of the warmth thing...
> 
> Weight matters, and so does misleading advertising.
> 
> Bottom line, PSE crushed it this year AND their specs are accurate.


Completely agree ^^^


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## PJC15 (Aug 18, 2015)

THE ELKMAN said:


> Completely agree ^^^


Not sure where the misleading advertising is or where the specs aren't accurate.......I think I did a pretty good job showing that's not the case.


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## Gooldylocks (Nov 15, 2018)

PJC15 said:


> Not sure where the misleading advertising is or where the specs aren't accurate.......I think I did a pretty good job showing that's not the case.


You're like the only person that has weighed one that hasn't been dramatically over the listed weight, and you still have to remove parts that come on the bow from the factory to get there.


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## PJC15 (Aug 18, 2015)

Gooldylocks said:


> You're like the only person that has weighed one that hasn't been dramatically over the listed weight, and you still have to remove parts that come on the bow from the factory to get there.


Only thing I removed was the bottom shock pods (limb dampeners stayed in) which PSE doesn’t have and I can’t tell any difference with them removed as well when shooting. Out of the ones I have weighed there is very little difference in weight between the Alpha and the Ultra. This sort of proves the point that the weight is coming from the limb pockets, limbs and cams. For a 34" ata bow, the weights are pretty good. I agree that the Alpha weight is not ideal but it follows suit with past year Hoyts in the shorter ata category. There has only been a 2-3 oz difference historically in the 30" ata carbon/aluminum bows. This spreads is greater when you go to the 34" category. I am seeing about an 6-8oz weight savings when comparing the longer offerings.


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## PJC15 (Aug 18, 2015)

Gooldylocks said:


> You're like the only person that has weighed one that hasn't been dramatically over the listed weight, and you still have to remove parts that come on the bow from the factory to get there.


I’m not the only person. There are plenty of videos and reviews that show them getting the same weights I’m getting. For whatever reason your only focused on the few that aren’t 


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## PAKraig (Sep 19, 2005)

So, who likes the PSE draw cycle better than the RX4????


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## vmals (Jul 24, 2018)

PAKraig said:


> So, who likes the PSE draw cycle better than the RX4????


I preferred the draw of the Mach 1 over the axius ultra #2 cam. Felt smoother but not night and day. Both 30/70. 


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## ontarget7 (Dec 30, 2009)

PAKraig said:


> So, who likes the PSE draw cycle better than the RX4????






















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## killerloop (Mar 16, 2008)

This is like the dems debate.... !

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## PAKraig (Sep 19, 2005)

ontarget7 said:


> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


That's why I asked if like I did :embara:


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## ontarget7 (Dec 30, 2009)

PAKraig said:


> That's why I asked if like I did :embara:


They ramp up similar but after peak weight I feel the edge goes to Hoyt’s new cams. 

What is surprising is you carry peak weight for less time on the ZTR’s and in the #2 cam speed is very comparable from one to another


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## 4IDARCHER (Jul 1, 2006)

I have only shot the RX4 Alpha in the shops 3 times, but have quite a bit of time behind the production Mach 1 and the pre-release of the NTN Mach one (same as the regular Mach 1)
I actually think (although I have not shot them side by side) that I prefer the actual draw cycle of the RX4 better. The backwall and valley (and the fact you can adjust the letoff right there on the bow) goes to the Mach 1 by far. The quietness of the bow also goes to the Mach 1. Same as the hold on the bow due to the longer ATA of the Mach 1. Speed like posted above are very close although if you are Hoyt that is nothing to brag about. 
The Mach 1 and Dudley’s move will I hope motivate Hoyt (and other companies) to produce more innovative bows next year and beyond. That will trickle out to the industry as a whole and be a good thing. 
I have to think Hoyt is already shaking their heads about letting Dudley get away, his move to PSE is creating ripples and we are already seeing those ripples and how they are spreading beyond what the bow’s specs are from Hoyt and PSE. Will be interesting to watch for sure and bottom line PSE hit it out of the park on the Mach 1. The best news to AT is that it will take a bit before PSE holds onto their value like Hoyt (beyond the fact all bows drop value like rocks) so we can snatch up slightly used ones for fairly cheap.


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## spike camp (Jun 2, 2008)

There was a 2 week old Mach1 for sale the other night for $1050
Missed it by minutes...
Oh well, I’ll live vicariously for a while longer.


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## ontarget7 (Dec 30, 2009)

4IDARCHER said:


> I have only shot the RX4 Alpha in the shops 3 times, but have quite a bit of time behind the production Mach 1 and the pre-release of the NTN Mach one (same as the regular Mach 1)
> I actually think (although I have not shot them side by side) that I prefer the actual draw cycle of the RX4 better. The backwall and valley (and the fact you can adjust the letoff right there on the bow) goes to the Mach 1 by far. The quietness of the bow also goes to the Mach 1. Same as the hold on the bow due to the longer ATA of the Mach 1. Speed like posted above are very close although if you are Hoyt that is nothing to brag about.
> The Mach 1 and Dudley’s move will I hope motivate Hoyt (and other companies) to produce more innovative bows next year and beyond. That will trickle out to the industry as a whole and be a good thing.
> I have to think Hoyt is already shaking their heads about letting Dudley get away, his move to PSE is creating ripples and we are already seeing those ripples and how they are spreading beyond what the bow’s specs are from Hoyt and PSE. Will be interesting to watch for sure and bottom line PSE hit it out of the park on the Mach 1. The best news to AT is that it will take a bit before PSE holds onto their value like Hoyt (beyond the fact all bows drop value like rocks) so we can snatch up slightly used ones for fairly cheap.


The innovative part I sorta shake my head at in regards to Hoyt. 
I feel the new cams are a great improvement on a hybrid cam system. I have yet to see one that has to be shimmed and that’s even going from one end of the spectrum to the other on spine range. 
Doing that with the Evolve cams will require reconfiguring cam spacers to get equal results. 

I really don’t see them being behind at all but what do I know 






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## killerloop (Mar 16, 2008)

spike camp said:


> There was a 2 week old Mach1 for sale the other night for $1050
> Missed it by minutes...
> Oh well, I’ll live vicariously for a while longer.


Smallz









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## spike camp (Jun 2, 2008)

killerloop said:


> Smallz
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Ha!
I wish...


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## BigZsquatchin (Nov 5, 2017)

4IDARCHER said:


> I have only shot the RX4 Alpha in the shops 3 times, but have quite a bit of time behind the production Mach 1 and the pre-release of the NTN Mach one (same as the regular Mach 1)
> I actually think (although I have not shot them side by side) that I prefer the actual draw cycle of the RX4 better. The backwall and valley (and the fact you can adjust the letoff right there on the bow) goes to the Mach 1 by far. The quietness of the bow also goes to the Mach 1. Same as the hold on the bow due to the longer ATA of the Mach 1. Speed like posted above are very close although if you are Hoyt that is nothing to brag about.
> The Mach 1 and Dudley’s move will I hope motivate Hoyt (and other companies) to produce more innovative bows next year and beyond. That will trickle out to the industry as a whole and be a good thing.
> I have to think Hoyt is already shaking their heads about letting Dudley get away, his move to PSE is creating ripples and we are already seeing those ripples and how they are spreading beyond what the bow’s specs are from Hoyt and PSE. Will be interesting to watch for sure and bottom line PSE hit it out of the park on the Mach 1. The best news to AT is that it will take a bit before PSE holds onto their value like Hoyt (beyond the fact all bows drop value like rocks) so we can snatch up slightly used ones for fairly cheap.



How did u get so much time with the Mach1s? 
Only one shop around here has 1 Mach 1 in stock


I got a used bow on here and it didn’t end up well
Lower limb was twisted
Luckily my shop let me trade it it and is dealing with the rebuild
Mathews bows seem to hold value well
I’m interested to see how the Mach 1 does on resale after they’re readily available

Hell they will have a new carbon bow out by the time the shelves have Mach 1’s on them 

Come to think of it maybe these delays are planned 


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## ontarget7 (Dec 30, 2009)

I really enjoy both bows but there really is a lot of misinformation, speed being one of them. 

At 28” 
#2 cam Hoyt RX4 Alpha, Evolve cam Mach 1 the RX4 is 3 fps faster. That’s not much but keep in mind you hear all this talk how the RX4 Alpha is way slow and when comparing both, I’m just not seeing it. 

Both great bows but lots of false info out there. 




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## 4IDARCHER (Jul 1, 2006)

I have a buddy that has a decent in with PSE.


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## 4IDARCHER (Jul 1, 2006)

ontarget7 said:


> I really enjoy both bows but there really is a lot of misinformation, speed being one of them.
> 
> At 28”
> #2 cam Hoyt RX4 Alpha, Evolve cam Mach 1 the RX4 is 3 fps faster. That’s not much but keep in mind you hear all this talk how the RX4 Alpha is way slow and when comparing both, I’m just not seeing it.
> ...


Bows are rated at 30inch draw (give or take but Hoyt does better than this then most for sure)
That mean the RX4 alpha used the #3 cam to test speeds and from what I have seen the #3 cams are 3-4fps slower then the Mach 1. You are right that isn’t enough to worry about at ALL, but there is a 10fps rating difference in favor of the Hoyt. I remember when Hoyt was the one that always under promised and over preformed. 
Both are good bows but side by side the Mach1 offer the average hunter more for their $$.


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## ontarget7 (Dec 30, 2009)

4IDARCHER said:


> Bows are rated at 30inch draw (give or take but Hoyt does better than this then most for sure)
> That mean the RX4 alpha used the #3 cam to test speeds and from what I have seen the #3 cams are 3-4fps slower then the Mach 1. You are right that isn’t enough to worry about at ALL, but there is a 10fps rating difference in favor of the Hoyt. I remember when Hoyt was the one that always under promised and over preformed.
> Both are good bows but side by side the Mach1 offer the average hunter more for their $$.


I’m well aware of how they are rated. Both are a 6” brace height bows so when you compare apples to apples the lack of innovation yields a better draw cycle and still is a touch faster. 

So when you compare the #3 cam draw cycle, it’s even easier and still producing equal speeds to the Mach 1 giving your 3-4 fps slower comparison between #2 cam and 3 cam. 

The #2 cam is more on par with a 345 IBO bow

I’m just keeping it real as I like both bows quite a bit. I just think some have their head so far up Dudley’s rear end they can’t get their facts straight and gravitate towards any negative they hear towards Hoyt, then consider it gospel. 


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## killerloop (Mar 16, 2008)

BigZsquatchin said:


> How did u get so much time with the Mach1s?
> Only one shop around here has 1 Mach 1 in stock
> 
> 
> ...


Mach 1 (2020.5).. 

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## Kris87 (Sep 12, 2003)

The PSE is lighter. The PSE is faster if you actually consider the cam size. A Mach 1 with a SE cam would be faster than a RX4 with #2 cam if you wanna compare apples to apples on cam size since they matter when it comes to speed and draw cycle. The PSE has more letoff, which should be slower, but it's not. Just some other things to think about. The PSE you can micro manage letoff and DL with a small cam module adjustment. The PSE you can swap multiple modules to suit you desired speed and letoff. Make your decision on what is important.


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## ontarget7 (Dec 30, 2009)

Kris87 said:


> The PSE is lighter. The PSE is faster if you actually consider the cam size. A Mach 1 with a SE cam would be faster than a RX4 with #2 cam if you wanna compare apples to apples on cam size since they matter when it comes to speed and draw cycle. The PSE has more letoff, which should be slower, but it's not. Just some other things to think about. The PSE you can micro manage letoff and DL with a small cam module adjustment. The PSE you can swap multiple modules to suit you desired speed and letoff. Make your decision on what is important.


One carry’s peak weight longer and it’s not faster. I really don’t care about cam size, it’s irrelevant. 




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## rmscustom (Mar 7, 2011)

ontarget7 said:


> I really enjoy both bows but there really is a lot of misinformation, speed being one of them.
> 
> At 28”
> #2 cam Hoyt RX4 Alpha, Evolve cam Mach 1 the RX4 is 3 fps faster. That’s not much but keep in mind you hear all this talk how the RX4 Alpha is way slow and when comparing both, I’m just not seeing it.
> ...



Let’s be honest here... 
Hoyt is rated 342 Ibo
Pse Is rated 332 ibo
You’re comparing a #2 cam Hoyt at its peak efficiency compared to the evolve cam in the middle of its range. 
Back in the day a Hoyt #2 cam was 8-10fps faster than the #3 cam in the same dl. 
See why the opinion the Hoyt is slow exists???
Considering the above I’d call the +3 for the Hoyt a little embarrassing and that’s without weighing them. Lol
Shoot a #3 against the EC at 28” and check your results or dial that #2 and the ec cam back 1.5” and see why one is considered slow. 



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## ontarget7 (Dec 30, 2009)

rmscustom said:


> Let’s be honest here...
> Hoyt is rated 342 Ibo
> Pse Is rated 332 ibo
> You’re comparing a #2 cam Hoyt at its peak efficiency compared to the evolve cam in the middle of its range.
> ...


It’s a 6” brace height bow so I could careless what PSE rates it at. If it was a 332 IBO bow it would be the slowest 6” brace height bow on the planet. 

Again, comparing draw cycles, the Hoyt holds peak weight for less time and comes in faster. 

Throw the SE cams on it and they will pick up some but it will then hold peak weight even longer. 




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## ontarget7 (Dec 30, 2009)

I’m comparing them together in the closest draw force curve. When you compare the #3 cam, it’s even easier yet and draw force curve is even softer so it’s a little slower when comparing the two. 


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## rmscustom (Mar 7, 2011)

ontarget7 said:


> It’s a 6” brace height bow so I could careless what PSE rates it at. If it was a 332 IBO bow it would be the slowest 6” brace height bow on the planet.
> 
> Again, comparing draw cycles, the Hoyt holds peak weight for less time and comes in faster.
> 
> ...


Does it?
This is what I see by your chart. Nice charts. Exactly how I’ve always precieved it but never took the time to put it on paper. 

The Hoyt hits peak dw with in 5” and is with in 5lbs of peak dw for 11” of its cycle. 
The PSE hits it peak dw at 11” and is also with in 5lbs of its peak for 11”. 



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## mbtaylor (Oct 23, 2019)

I ran the Mach 1 through the chronograph today at my local shop... these are speeds I got... I don’t know why PSE rates this bows so slow. Super fast!


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## BigZsquatchin (Nov 5, 2017)

Someone with an rx4 shoot an arrow 472 grains and get 308 FPS out of it

I’ll be waiting
30” 70lb 85% letoff



















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## PAKraig (Sep 19, 2005)

BigZsquatchin said:


> Someone with an rx4 shoot an arrow 472 grains and get 308 FPS out of it
> 
> I’ll be waiting
> 30” 70lb 85% letoff
> ...


I'll put some twists in my 65lber this weekend and let you know.

My RX4 Alpha at 65/29.5 was 7 fps slower than my buddy's Mach 1 at 29.5/70 through my own Chrono with the same 366 grain arrow. Pretty darn comparable


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## BigZsquatchin (Nov 5, 2017)

PAKraig said:


> I'll put some twists in my 65lber this weekend and let you know.
> 
> My RX4 Alpha at 65/29.5 was 7 fps slower than my buddy's Mach 1 at 29.5/70 through my own Chrono with the same 366 grain arrow. Pretty darn comparable


I’m anxious to see


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## mbtaylor (Oct 23, 2019)

PAKraig said:


> BigZsquatchin said:
> 
> 
> > Someone with an rx4 shoot an arrow 472 grains and get 308 FPS out of it
> ...


Run a heavier arrow also. Something over 450... Gotta see those actual hunting arrow speeds with both bows.


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## Doebuster (Mar 5, 2006)

BigZsquatchin said:


> Someone with an rx4 shoot an arrow 472 grains and get 308 FPS out of it
> 
> I’ll be waiting
> 30” 70lb 85% i
> ...


If that was ontargets chrono it would be 318 ! His is hotter than the pro chrono !


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## BigZsquatchin (Nov 5, 2017)

Doebuster said:


> If that was ontargets chrono it would be 318 ! His is hotter than the pro chrono !


When I get mine I’ll get my cop buddy to clock it with his radar 
Cuz we all know how accurate they are [emoji3166]


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## BigZsquatchin (Nov 5, 2017)

mbtaylor said:


> Run a heavier arrow also. Something over 450... Gotta see those actual hunting arrow speeds with both bows.


Agreed
Also, If someone doesn’t believe my post I’ll happily go do it again
No reason to lie
Never dreamed of buying a PSE before this is my first
Not a lifelong fanboy 


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## mbtaylor (Oct 23, 2019)

BigZsquatchin said:


> mbtaylor said:
> 
> 
> > Run a heavier arrow also. Something over 450... Gotta see those actual hunting arrow speeds with both bows.
> ...


Im saying this because I’m curious not critical. I don’t think any of new Hoyts are as fast as the Mach1 (not that speed is everything) Plus the evolve cams typically like heavy arrows.


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## ontarget7 (Dec 30, 2009)

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## BigZsquatchin (Nov 5, 2017)

ontarget7 said:


> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


What bow ?
Letoff?
Etc


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## ontarget7 (Dec 30, 2009)

BigZsquatchin said:


> What bow ?
> Letoff?
> Etc
> 
> ...


This one is the RX4 Alpha #2 cam with letoff sitting at 82.5% 




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## bigbucks170 (Feb 2, 2006)

ontarget7 said:


> One carry’s peak weight longer and it’s not faster. I really don’t care about cam size, it’s irrelevant.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



the size of the cam changes the Brace Height of the bow ..is that irrelevant ?


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## ontarget7 (Dec 30, 2009)

bigbucks170 said:


> the size of the cam changes the Brace Height of the bow ..is that irrelevant ? it dose on the Mach 1


What are you guys searching for ? 

They both are 6” brace height bows. You stick the SE cams on the Mach1 it will be a sub 6” brace height bow. 

I’m comparing both bows at 6” brace height. The Hoyt RX4 #2 cam at 28” and the Mach 1 in the EC cam sits right at 6” brace height. 

Draw force curve is what it is and plotted accordingly. One carry’s peak weight longer than the other. 

Both are great bows but there are differences other than weight between the two. 


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## BigZsquatchin (Nov 5, 2017)

ontarget7 said:


> What are you guys searching for ?
> 
> They both are 6” brace height bows. You stick the SE cams on the Mach1 it will be a sub 6” brace height bow.
> 
> ...


Agreed on this
However

Mach 1 much lighter
Regardless of wether the limb pockets or cams are lighter [emoji2373] show me a broken cam or limb pocket on one 

Mach 1 faster too (waiting for proof otherwise )


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## PJC15 (Aug 18, 2015)

BigZsquatchin said:


> Agreed on this
> However
> 
> Mach 1 much lighter
> ...



There is no secret science behind speed. The speeds are close and the mach 1 should be faster given it carries peak weight longer and has a harsher dump. Should we compare it to the turbo instead? The draw force curves would probably be similar.


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## ontarget7 (Dec 30, 2009)

PJC15 said:


> There is no secret science behind speed. The speeds are close and the mach 1 should be faster given it carries peak weight longer and has a harsher dump. Should we compare it to the turbo instead? The draw force curves would probably be similar.


That’s the kicker, I’m a touch faster in the RX4 Alpha and it doesn’t carry peak weight as long. 

I’m actually a bit surprised by the new cams. 


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## trimantrekokc (May 16, 2006)

but according to your graphs the break overs are smoother/more rounded on the Mach 1 so in all reality the hoyt is more aggressive. plus the drop is in the last 3 inches of the hoyt compared to 6" of the PSE.....



ontarget7 said:


> That’s the kicker, I’m a touch faster in the RX4 Alpha and it doesn’t carry peak weight as long.
> 
> I’m actually a bit surprised by the new cams.
> 
> ...


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## ontarget7 (Dec 30, 2009)

trimantrekokc said:


> but according to your graphs the break overs are smoother/more rounded on the Mach 1 so in all reality the hoyt is more aggressive. plus the drop is in the last 3 inches of the hoyt compared to 6" of the PSE.....


Just depends on your preference. The Mach 1 is a little stiffer do to carrying peak weight longer but it’s a smooth transition 
Draw cycle for me, the RX4 gets the nod. 


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## 4IDARCHER (Jul 1, 2006)

Although I think the Mach 1 gets the nod for a better overall bow, for me and my wants, I agree with Ontarget7 that the ease of draw goes to the RX4 alpha. I believe on the back end of the draw the ECS stacks a bit more but I also think the RX4 dumps a little harder, but it is splitting hairs here and neither are anywhere close to being bad. Both great bows but for me I know which one I will spend my $$ on. Doesn't make the other a bad bow though. I have also went the uber short bow route and I think it bit me a bit in hunting situations past 50 yards where the nerves kick in and nothing is perfect, for those with better skills than myself that might not be a consideration though.


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## bigbucks170 (Feb 2, 2006)

ontarget7 said:


> What are you guys searching for ?
> 
> They both are 6” brace height bows. You stick the SE cams on the Mach1 it will be a sub 6” brace height bow.
> 
> ...


sorry if my question came off as argumentative I didn't mean it like that ..the brace height of Mach 1 with SE cam is 6.063
does brace height change on RX4 going from number 3 cam to number 2 cam ?


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## -bowfreak- (Oct 18, 2006)

PSE definitely is going to garner a lot of the insta crowd with Dudley. That being said....most people walk into their pro shop and buy a bow and they buy whatever the guy is selling. I think the Drury's (many years ago) were a bigger steal overall than Dudley. More people associate with the Drury's or Bone Collector than Dudley. I think it is simply due to the fact that the average guy hunting whitetails just wants to be able to kill deer and they often don't work on their bow or care to extend their range. Granted, the archery world is smaller now, but I think this is still the case.


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## V-TRAIN (Feb 27, 2009)

Chamacat said:


> Yep speaking for the 2019 Evoke 35 as listed by PSE
> 
> Evoke 35 EC is at IBO speed 320 FPS
> Evoke 35 SE is at IBO speed 327 FPS
> ...


John finished up my NXT 33 with the SE cam yesterday and posted it on his facebook.

Custom shop NXT 33 SE
80 pd limbs , backed to 76 pds
27 inch ,425 gr at 292 FPS HL mods

that is about 336-337 ibo pretty excited considering i have t-rex arms, should be a killer hunting bow, perfect specs.


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## BigZsquatchin (Nov 5, 2017)

V-TRAIN said:


> John finished up my NXT 33 with the SE cam yesterday and posted it on his facebook.
> 
> Custom shop NXT 33 SE
> 80 pd limbs , backed to 76 pds
> ...


Nice !
How does that 76lbs feel?
Also, how in the hell did u get John to do ur bow ?


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## V-TRAIN (Feb 27, 2009)

BigZsquatchin said:


> Nice !
> How does that 76lbs feel?
> Also, how in the hell did u get John to do ur bow ?
> 
> ...


it is on the way haven't gotten it yet.
Johns custom archery, "Breathn" he is a PSE dealer, i ordered it from him.


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## Chamacat (Apr 11, 2019)

Yep..That's impressive V-Train..A heck of a hunting bow set up...nice


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## bigbucks170 (Feb 2, 2006)

V-TRAIN said:


> it is on the way haven't gotten it yet.
> Johns custom archery, "Breathn" he is a PSE dealer, i ordered it from him.


ordered my last two bows from him....


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## nightvision (Aug 30, 2011)

I can’t argue all the specifics intelligently enough to get in this conversation but I do find it comical that speed is such a big sticking point when they are so close. 10fps? Really? It seems as though I have read many times on here how so few don’t care about speed but in this thread most sure seem to. Draw cycle? Sure! Mass weight? Sure! 10 FPS? Really don’t care.


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## Thundersnow (Nov 15, 2014)

Flip, flop, flip, flop... it's the argument of the day....


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## 1954res (Dec 15, 2015)

I have an rx3 #3 cam and a mach 1, they are both great bows to me. I honestly dont know why we keep arguing over so called best bow. it's like arguing over which is better apples or oranges. No 2 people are exactly alike physically, structurally and mentally. So to me the only best bow is the one that fits you and your needs, Randy 

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## Chamacat (Apr 11, 2019)

Yep..I still haven't seen a Mach 1 yet..


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## Kris87 (Sep 12, 2003)

nightvision said:


> I can’t argue all the specifics intelligently enough to get in this conversation but I do find it comical that speed is such a big sticking point when they are so close. 10fps? Really? It seems as though I have read many times on here how so few don’t care about speed but in this thread most sure seem to. Draw cycle? Sure! Mass weight? Sure! 10 FPS? Really don’t care.


I don't really care about speed per se but I do consider it. Why? Because I set all of my bows up every year to shoot 290fps. I do that so I can swap sights over every year and never have to change the pin gap, or my sight tapes. I don't change my arrows, or their finished weight. I've been shooting the same three MBG Ascents for years now. The only variable I throw in is the bow. And I always have at least 2 or 3. Last year my main bow was my CA34, which needed 69# to shoot 290fps. My backup bow was an Evoke31 and it only needed 64# to shoot the same speed. So as long as something falls in the 335-342 IBO range for me, it's where I want it to be DW wise. This is just what I do because it's consistent and easy for me to swap things every year.


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## Kris87 (Sep 12, 2003)

I do have a RX4 to tune at the house and my Mach 1 should be here any day. I'll report my findings.


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## BigZsquatchin (Nov 5, 2017)

V-TRAIN said:


> it is on the way haven't gotten it yet.
> Johns custom archery, "Breathn" he is a PSE dealer, i ordered it from him.


I’m an idiot
I was thinking John Dudley 


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## V-TRAIN (Feb 27, 2009)

BigZsquatchin said:


> I’m an idiot
> I was thinking John Dudley
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Lol


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## treillw (Jan 13, 2020)

RX1:








And in case anybody doubts the accuracy of my scale:


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## PJC15 (Aug 18, 2015)

That’s wrong unless those flo strings are heavy as hell.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=hnN8LvaNCZs


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## Kris87 (Sep 12, 2003)

I just weighed this 70# RX4 Alpha straight outta the box on my AWS digital scale and it's 4.4#.


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## Kris87 (Sep 12, 2003)

I didn't remove a thing.


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## BigZsquatchin (Nov 5, 2017)

Kris87 said:


> I just weighed this 70# RX4 Alpha straight outta the box on my AWS digital scale and it's 4.4#.


Get pics please
I believe it but I’m trying to prove a point 


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## Kris87 (Sep 12, 2003)




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## BigZsquatchin (Nov 5, 2017)

Kris87 said:


> View attachment 7092781
> 
> 
> View attachment 7092783


Thank you!
Damn near a pound heavier than the Mach1
They do look nice but not happening lol


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## spike camp (Jun 2, 2008)

PJC15 said:


> That’s wrong unless those flo strings are heavy as hell.
> 
> https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=hnN8LvaNCZs
> 
> ...



Cherry pickin’ again?


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## PJC15 (Aug 18, 2015)

spike camp said:


> Cherry pickin’ again?


Not really just tired of the ****ty scales being used to prove a point and the fact there are a bunch of videos and posts showing the lower weights. Using a food scale or a ****ty 20 dollar hand scale is worthless. Your as bad as a Democrat at this point.


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## spike camp (Jun 2, 2008)

PJC15 said:


> Not really just tired of the ****ty scales being used to prove a point and the fact there are a bunch of videos and posts showing the lower weights. Using a food scale or a ****ty 20 dollar hand scale is worthless. Your as bad as a Democrat at this point.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



Cherry picking and fully ignoring the calibration weight lol
Why are you so fixated on the weight thing anyway?


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## Kris87 (Sep 12, 2003)

My scale isn't inaccurate, nor cheap. I weighed a 10# and 15# kettlebell right before and they were both dead on. I don't have an agenda. Going to do a fair comparison and I'll weigh both when the Mach 1 gets here


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## PJC15 (Aug 18, 2015)

spike camp said:


> Cherry picking and fully ignoring the calibration weight lol
> Why are you so fixated on the weight thing anyway?


You can’t disperse the weight of the bow properly on a small crappy scale like that. We use scales at work a lot and I can go into greater detail if you would like.

I’ve done tests on much better scales as I have previously said. People come on here with there 20 dollar scale and try to compare apples to apples. I honestly could care less about the weights. I wanted to like the pse this year but I just don’t like it. If you after weight savings, the alpha is only going to save you 2-3 ounces over it’s aluminum counterpart. The ultra will have double the weight savings. I am also seeing almost the same weights as the alpha with the ultra.


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## ontarget7 (Dec 30, 2009)

The whole weight thing is stupid if you ask me. 
If you want the lightest bow and that’s your first priority in a carbon bow buy the Mach 1, cause the RX4 is heavier, it’s that simple. 

I can buy what I want, when I want to, and the RX4 is still my go to for this year. 

We really don’t need a thousand pics of scales and weights to come to the conclusion that the Mach1 is lighter. 


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## PJC15 (Aug 18, 2015)

Kris87 said:


> My scale isn't inaccurate, nor cheap. I weighed a 10# and 15# kettlebell right before and they were both dead on. I don't have an agenda. Going to do a fair comparison and I'll weigh both when the Mach 1 gets here


Not being a jerk but those kettlebells aren’t accurate to the ounce 


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## Kris87 (Sep 12, 2003)

PJC15 said:


> Not being a jerk but those kettlebells aren’t accurate to the ounce
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


You're the one arguing the scales aren't accurate. Not me. I just weighed them for reference. Maybe they're high quality kettlebells. Maybe I got lucky. Maybe they weigh more than what they showed and the Hoyt is actually heavier. It doesn't matter. I just do what I do brother.


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## PJC15 (Aug 18, 2015)

Kris87 said:


> You're the one arguing the scales aren't accurate. Not me. I just weighed them for reference. Maybe they're high quality kettlebells. Maybe I got lucky. Maybe they weigh more than what they showed and the Hoyt is actually heavier. It doesn't matter. I just do what I do brother.


Like I said I wasn’t being a a jerk but verifying by weighing kettle balls is worthless when your trying to get ounces


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## spike camp (Jun 2, 2008)

PJC15 said:


> Not being a jerk but those kettlebells aren’t accurate to the ounce
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



Yet, ironically...they both weighed exactly what they are supposed to weigh lol
You a kettle ball weight pro too?

Bottom line, as far as weight...the Hoyt is a tank of a carbon that comes in approximately 1/2 pound heavier than it’s listed weight and the Hoyt weighs approximately 1 full pound heavier than the Mach1
You can quibble about an once or two variance, remove anything and everything possible to prove an empty point or proclaim to be a scale expert but none of that changes the facts that the Hoyt is substantially heavier than specs and the PSE.


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## ontarget7 (Dec 30, 2009)

So in the advertising realm
Hoyt is wrong in mass weight
PSE is wrong on percentages of letoff 
Both are wrong by a fair margin 




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## BigZsquatchin (Nov 5, 2017)

spike camp said:


> Yet, ironically...they both weighed exactly what they are supposed to weigh lol
> You a kettle ball weight pro too?
> 
> Bottom line, as far as weight...the Hoyt is a tank of a carbon that comes in approximately 1/2 pound heavier than it’s listed weight and the Hoyt weighs approximately 1 full pound heavier than the Mach1
> You can quibble about an once or two variance, remove anything and everything possible to prove an empty point or proclaim to be a scale expert but none of that changes the facts that the Hoyt is substantially heavier than specs and the PSE.


That’s the most important takeaway from this 

The rx4 advertised weight is a lie

That’s all


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## 1954res (Dec 15, 2015)

ontarget7 said:


> The whole weight thing is stupid if you ask me.
> If you want the lightest bow and that’s your first priority in a carbon bow buy the Mach 1, cause the RX4 is heavier, it’s that simple.
> 
> I can buy what I want, when I want to, and the RX4 is still my go to for this year.
> ...


exactly!

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## ontarget7 (Dec 30, 2009)

BigZsquatchin said:


> That’s the most important takeaway from this
> 
> The rx4 advertised weight is a lie
> 
> ...


As PSE’s advertised letoff percentages would be a lie. 

Both are wrong, so be it. 


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## BigZsquatchin (Nov 5, 2017)

ontarget7 said:


> As PSE’s advertised letoff percentages would be a lie.
> 
> Both are wrong, so be it.
> 
> ...


Well up until now that wasn’t a part of the discussion, but let’s hear it
I’m not a PSE fanboy this will be my first so let’s get the info out 


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## spike camp (Jun 2, 2008)

Don’t even talk about letoff percentage variances, unless you’re using a $1500 certified postage scale.


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## ontarget7 (Dec 30, 2009)

BigZsquatchin said:


> Well up until now that wasn’t a part of the discussion, but let’s hear it
> I’m not a PSE fanboy this will be my first so let’s get the info out
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


On average about 5% higher letoff 
I had an 80# one last year that was only holding 4#

The bows that come out right at peak weight will be closer to advertised, the bows that come out a few pounds over peak weight will sometimes be about 5% higher on letoff percentages 

It’s no big deal to me, as I could careless, it is what it is. 



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## Kris87 (Sep 12, 2003)

All bows are going to have letoff % variances especially across different draw length ranges in the cam. Going to have better letoff at certain DL's, less at others.


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## Doebuster (Mar 5, 2006)

Kris87 said:


> View attachment 7092781
> 
> 
> View attachment 7092783


The first thing there going to say is ur scales off ! Lol I'm just glad we have a choice in carbon bows ! I like both of the bows there both nice rigs ! But when I think carbon I think light wgt .! When my Mach 1 gets here I'll weigh it , probably will be a while , I heard there going to offer it in all subalpine ! Might have to change my order !


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## ontarget7 (Dec 30, 2009)

Kris87 said:


> All bows are going to have letoff % variances especially across different draw length ranges in the cam. Going to have better letoff at certain DL's, less at others.


Just like Hoyt bows don’t weigh the same from the #2 cam to the #3 cam. 

If I was to take the metal balls and dampener out of my #2 cam RX4 that bow is very close to its advertised weight. The #3 cam is above. 

I’m still blown away how the weight thing is beat to death and brought up all the time. 

Of coarse my scales wrong blah blah blah blah

If mass weight is your primary focus and you want a light bow, the Mach 1 is lighter period. 

We knit pick and harp about the stupidest stuff and it goes on for days 




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## scott_co (Nov 23, 2017)

Doebuster said:


> I like both of the bows there both nice rigs ! But when I think carbon I think light wgt .! When my Mach 1 gets here I'll weigh it , probably will be a while


I agree with ya - Both the Hoyt and PSE carbon bows are nice shooting bows, and there is a reason people want a carbon bow...we want them to be light and stiff. 

I wouldn't buy a 18-20 lb carbon road bike, nor would I buy a 4+ lb carbon bow. But hey, let's get 17 more pages of "your scale is off" comments...this is entertaining stuff.


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## rmscustom (Mar 7, 2011)

scott_co said:


> I agree with ya - Both the Hoyt and PSE carbon bows are nice shooting bows, and there is a reason people want a carbon bow...we want them to be light and stiff.
> 
> I wouldn't buy a 18-20 lb carbon road bike, nor would I buy a 4+ lb carbon bow. But hey, let's get 17 more pages of "your scale is off" comments...this is entertaining stuff.


Personally I like the if we take a bunch of parts off the Rx4 It will make weight comments. Now that’s funny shat right there. Haha


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## scott_co (Nov 23, 2017)

rmscustom said:


> Personally I like the if we take a bunch of parts off the Rx4 It will make weight comments. Now that’s funny shat right there. Haha
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


:thumbs_up 

You can't make this stuff up...


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## Kris87 (Sep 12, 2003)

I'm just here for fair comparison and facts. I simply measured it straight out of the box. I would think that is how you would want to do it. I don't know.


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## spike camp (Jun 2, 2008)

rmscustom said:


> Personally I like the if we take a bunch of parts off the Rx4 It will make weight comments. Now that’s funny shat right there. Haha
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



Now now, to be fair.......it still didn’t make weight lol!!


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## Mathias (Mar 21, 2005)

ontarget7 said:


> The whole weight thing is stupid if you ask me.
> If you want the lightest bow and that’s your first priority in a carbon bow buy the Mach 1, cause the RX4 is heavier, it’s that simple.
> 
> I can buy what I want, when I want to, and the RX4 is still my go to for this year.
> ...


Bingo!


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## bigbucks170 (Feb 2, 2006)

rmscustom said:


> Personally I like the if we take a bunch of parts off the Rx4 It will make weight comments. Now that’s funny shat right there. Haha
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


thats not the only tactic ...go through 5-6 scales till you find one showing 1 oz less


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## gregg883 (Mar 23, 2013)

The lightest carbon is still Bowtech











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## trial153 (Nov 27, 2011)

...


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## spike camp (Jun 2, 2008)

gregg883 said:


> The lightest carbon is still Bowtech
> 
> 
> 
> ...



The Bowtech is plastic, not carbon.


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## BigZsquatchin (Nov 5, 2017)

Kris87 said:


> I'm just here for fair comparison and facts. I simply measured it straight out of the box. I would think that is how you would want to do it. I don't know.


That’s exactly how it should be


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## gregg883 (Mar 23, 2013)

Cable slide and maybe limb pockets but where does it say riser is plastic 


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## spike camp (Jun 2, 2008)

gregg883 said:


> Cable slide and maybe limb pockets but where does it say riser is plastic
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk




Bowtech calls their bow, a carbon bow....but it’s not.
In actuality, it’s a molded resin with carbon fibers mixed in(or something along those lines)
Basically, it’s a plastic riser.


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## gregg883 (Mar 23, 2013)

Neither is Hoyt has aluminum at ends so PSE wins


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## spike camp (Jun 2, 2008)

Hoyt is a mixture of actual carbon and aluminum, which is why is heavy(but probably incredibly ridged)

PSE is a unique monocoque design, that’s all carbon and very little aluminum, which is why it’s light.

Both awesome, but great, both available to the individual to choose which one suits their individual needs.


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## Thundersnow (Nov 15, 2014)

Why did bowtech quit making the carbon overdrive?


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## spike camp (Jun 2, 2008)

Thundersnow said:


> Why did bowtech quit making the carbon overdrive?


I started typing about the ODB cams and what they did to the plastic risers..but didn’t get included for some reason.

It’s an insult to carbon risers, to refer to the BT riser as carbon lol!


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## reverendherring (Nov 2, 2011)

Well, what about Gearhead:


https://www.gearheadarchery.com/collections/t-series/products/t18?variant=21977840451632


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## iceman14 (Jan 25, 2011)

I like the “who cares about weight, why does weight keep getting beat to death”.... that’s the main draw of buying a carbon bow. Why pay extra for the carbon version of a bow that unless you’re using the one and only ultracalibrated to the nearest picogram of salt United States government postal scale it’s closer to the weight of its aluminum version than to the competition? 

Then some guys are like “lift some weights you pansy, I buy carbon because it keeps my fingers warm on those frigid 40 degree mornings”. #mtnopsflatbillbro 
Kids these days. 


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## spike camp (Jun 2, 2008)

reverendherring said:


> Well, what about Gearhead:
> 
> 
> https://www.gearheadarchery.com/collections/t-series/products/t18?variant=21977840451632



What about ‘em?

At first glance (aesthetics aside) the specs are underwhelming.


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## reverendherring (Nov 2, 2011)

spike camp said:


> What about ‘em?
> 
> At first glance (aesthetics aside) the specs are underwhelming.


They seem to be lightest carbon bows - 2.7 pounds. If minimal weight is what one is after.


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## Doebuster (Mar 5, 2006)

trial153 said:


> ...


 I love this ! U guys are funny!


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## Doebuster (Mar 5, 2006)

ontarget7 said:


> Kris87 said:
> 
> 
> > All bows are going to have letoff % variances especially across different draw length ranges in the cam. Going to have better letoff at certain DL's, less at others.
> ...


 we r just stirring the pot ! It’s not personal , we know u don’t like it and your very predictable on your follow up post ! It’s all good ! There’s nothing to hunt so we’re just having a little hissy fit on a.t.


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## spike camp (Jun 2, 2008)

reverendherring said:


> They seem to be lightest carbon bows - 2.7 pounds. If minimal weight is what one is after.


Gotta compare apples to apples, I suppose.
Not sure I’d like a 24” ATA bow that’s expensive, relatively slow, ugly and I think your only rest option is a whisker.

Their 30” is 3.3 which when compared to the Mach1, its a no-brainer.


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## gregg883 (Mar 23, 2013)

spike camp said:


> I started typing about the ODB cams and what they did to the plastic risers..but didn’t get included for some reason.
> 
> It’s an insult to carbon risers, to refer to the BT riser as carbon lol!


Hoyt still isn’t carbon has aluminum on ends so like I said PSE WINS also my Evoke LT is still lighter than Hoyt and it is not carbon and well under half price it weighs 3.8 pounds 


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## treillw (Jan 13, 2020)

PJC15 said:


> Not really just tired of the ****ty scales being used to prove a point and the fact there are a bunch of videos and posts showing the lower weights. Using a food scale or a ****ty 20 dollar hand scale is worthless. Your as bad as a Democrat at this point.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


You're seriously questioning the accuracy of the scale??? There is a 50 gram check weight on the thing and it shows it as weighing exactly 50 grams. The scale can measure up to ~22 pounds. It's not for just measuring broccoli. I'm pretty sure the tolerance for manufacturing dumbbells is greater than 1.5oz per 10 pounds, so again I'm convinced that my scale is accurate. 


There may be some Hoyt Carbon bows out there that weight closer to advertised. But at best Hoyt is extremely inconsistent with their product weight.


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## PJC15 (Aug 18, 2015)

treillw said:


> You're seriously questioning the accuracy of the scale??? There is a 50 gram check weight on the thing and it shows it as weighing exactly 50 grams. The scale can measure up to ~22 pounds. It's not for just measuring broccoli. I'm pretty sure the tolerance for manufacturing dumbbells is greater than 1.5oz per 10 pounds, so again I'm convinced that my scale is accurate.
> 
> 
> There may be some Hoyt Carbon bows out there that weight closer to advertised. But at best Hoyt is extremely inconsistent with their product weight.
> ...


I can agree with this. Maybe there is too much inconsistencies in the weights from bow to bow.


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## iceman14 (Jan 25, 2011)

Chinese manufacturing never seems to be as consistent as American. 


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## Eskimofo (Mar 1, 2020)

RX4 Ultra


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## PJC15 (Aug 18, 2015)

iceman14 said:


> Chinese manufacturing never seems to be as consistent as American.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Depends what your manufacturing. There is a lot of very good high end manufacturing in China actually. 


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## BigZsquatchin (Nov 5, 2017)

iceman14 said:


> I like the “who cares about weight, why does weight keep getting beat to death”.... that’s the main draw of buying a carbon bow. Why pay extra for the carbon version of a bow that unless you’re using the one and only ultracalibrated to the nearest picogram of salt United States government postal scale it’s closer to the weight of its aluminum version than to the competition?
> 
> Then some guys are like “lift some weights you pansy, I buy carbon because it keeps my fingers warm on those frigid 40 degree mornings”. #mtnopsflatbillbro
> Kids these days.
> ...


Hahahahahaha!!!!
I buy carbon to keep my bro fingers warm on 40 degree days lmaoooooooo
This is great 

Ur right though these dang kids man
Has nothing to do with weights or anything but personal preference

I have had 5 different bow since New Year’s Day
I get one and if it’s not what I was hoping for I sell it
My bows never touch the ground or any hard surface and never get any scratches or marks so it’s easy to resell. 

Specs on paper are a good start but no matter how good of a bow someone else tells me it is, it won’t matter til I get one full setup and feel the balance and feel of the bow at the shot. I have had a few hoyt carbons but I can assure u I’ve never once considered paying the extra 5-600 bucks so my fingertips could touch carbon on a chilly morning. 
Most of us buy carbon for the weight .....period



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## PJC15 (Aug 18, 2015)

BigZsquatchin said:


> Hahahahahaha!!!!
> I buy carbon to keep my bro fingers warm on 40 degree days lmaoooooooo
> This is great
> 
> ...


Again, Hoyt has done pretty well over the years with carbons and the weights haven’t changed. They are still the same difference in weights as when they started when compared to aluminum.


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## BigZsquatchin (Nov 5, 2017)

PJC15 said:


> Again, Hoyt has done pretty well over the years with carbons and the weights haven’t changed. They are still the same difference in weights as when they started when compared to aluminum.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I like the looks but not buying a carbon bow that’s 2oz lighter than my aluminum bow

I was at the biggest shop in our state yesterday and checking things out
Bought 2 of my kids new bows
Bitzenburger 
Victory xtorsion ss arrows and a bunch of components 
I was looking at the RX3 and RX4
It has to be an aesthetics thing
The weight between that and the axius is not but a few ounces 
The purchase of the carbon would , for me , come down to buying the bow because it’s a tad lighter but looks a lot cooler than the aluminum counterpart. 
I’m not dissing anyone who likes hoyts but the Mach 1 as compared by this thread would win in my eyes simply due to weight
Next by the feeling after the shot


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## PJC15 (Aug 18, 2015)

Weight for me is a non issue as I prefer a heavier bow anyways. The number one reason I buy carbon is warmth as I carry my bow 10-15 miles per day on cold hunts and I like the shot feel over aluminum. I think you will find a lot of people who feel this way as well. I agree a little bit in the weight but if you go to the longer offerings there is a bigger weight savings difference. If you go pick up the RX4 ultra and pick up a Axius ultra you can feel a good bit of weight savings.


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## PJC15 (Aug 18, 2015)

PJC15 said:


> Weight for me is a non issue as I prefer a heavier bow anyways. The number one reason I buy carbon is warmth as I carry my bow 10-15 miles per day on cold hunts and I like the shot feel over aluminum. I think you will find a lot of people who feel this way as well. I agree a little bit in the weight but if you go to the longer offerings there is a bigger weight savings difference. If you go pick up the RX4 ultra and pick up a Axius ultra you can feel a good bit of weight savings. If I had the Mach 1 I would probably shoot it with a back bar so the weight thing is irrelevant between them for me.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk





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## NCAVI8TOR (Oct 5, 2003)

PJC15 said:


> Weight for me is a non issue as I prefer a heavier bow anyways. The number one reason I buy carbon is warmth as I carry my bow 10-15 miles per day on cold hunts and I like the shot feel over aluminum. I think you will find a lot of people who feel this way as well. I agree a little bit in the weight but if you go to the longer offerings there is a bigger weight savings difference. If you go pick up the RX4 ultra and pick up a Axius ultra you can feel a good bit of weight savings.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I couldn't care less about the weight of my bow. Love the carbon feel in the hand and on the shot. I know that a Hoyt bow will survive the most grueling hunt I could ever encounter and that gives me peace of mind in addition to justifying the added expense.

NC

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## Kris87 (Sep 12, 2003)

You guys like the plastic grip on the RX4?


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## Summit3 (Sep 23, 2018)

BigZsquatchin said:


> Well up until now that wasn’t a part of the discussion, but let’s hear it
> I’m not a PSE fanboy this will be my first so let’s get the info out
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


The current EVO NXT’s are rolling in 4-6% higher let off than advertised. Both my EVO NTN 33 and EVO NXT 33 are showing 5% higher let off. Not a huge deal, absolutely love the bows but I use the low let off mods set in the 75% peg setting to achieve my desired 80%. I had a few friends in two different shops with PSE go down the rack on their free time with a scale. One LCA scale, one the old Easton scale. Both came back with nearly every EC cam bow being 4-6% let more than advertised. The only time it was close to accurate was on bows they had modified to allow customers to test out. What they found was it was either at the very start of the cam or at the very end of the cam. But nonetheless more times than not it’s much higher let off than as indicated by the spec sheet. I’m sure PSE will tackle this on new models.


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## 4IDARCHER (Jul 1, 2006)

I was a huge fan of the exact grip. Loved how it felt and looked. The moveable grip on the carbons (besides the fact that I have yet see one person actually test it and keep it moved) has that awkward gap at the bottom that catches my skin a bit and feels weird. Also I am not a fan of thicker grips and while the movable grip isn’t as thick as the new rubber PSE grip it is thicker than the exact grip is.


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## bigbucks170 (Feb 2, 2006)

^^^ so you got a Mach 1 or getting one ? :wink:


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## IVhunter (Jun 5, 2009)

Summit3 said:


> The current EVO NXT’s are rolling in 4-6% higher let off than advertised. Both my EVO NTN 33 and EVO NXT 33 are showing 5% higher let off. Not a huge deal, absolutely love the bows but I use the low let off mods set in the 75% peg setting to achieve my desired 80%. I had a few friends in two different shops with PSE go down the rack on their free time with a scale. One LCA scale, one the old Easton scale. Both came back with nearly every EC cam bow being 4-6% let more than advertised. The only time it was close to accurate was on bows they had modified to allow customers to test out. What they found was it was either at the very start of the cam or at the very end of the cam. But nonetheless more times than not it’s much higher let off than as indicated by the spec sheet. I’m sure PSE will tackle this on new models.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Sounds like it’s the case for some newer bows but definitely not all of them. I’ve had a couple 2019 come in 4% higher (supra focus) and many others right on. I currently own 2 a 2020 and 2019 that come in right at the exact letoff for my DL of 28”, thats with either the low or high letoff mods.


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## Summit3 (Sep 23, 2018)

IVhunter said:


> Sounds like it’s the case for some newer bows but definitely not all of them. I’ve had a couple 2019 come in 4% higher (supra focus) and many others right on. I currently own 2 a 2020 and 2019 that come in right at the exact letoff for my DL of 28”, thats with either the low or high letoff mods.


Yeah it’s not a blanket effect by any means, I was a former bow dealer, we closed shop after the Evoke shortly came out.My Evolves where pretty well spot on and the one Evoke I owned before closing the doors was just a few % over. We would have a few customers bows here and there of the Evolve and Evoke that had to take a little tweaking but wasn’t on every bow per say. I think anytime you have such a substantial “reach” of draw length options in once single rotating mod it could produce some engineering challenges to address. I love PSE, have ever since being a dealer for them. I’d bet they get it worked out on future models. 


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## ontarget7 (Dec 30, 2009)

Both with a 483 gr arrow
Note 
Hoyt RX4 Alpha is a #2 cam 




















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## cruizerjoy (Dec 20, 2016)

ontarget7 said:


> Both with a 483 gr arrow
> Note
> Hoyt RX4 Alpha is a #2 cam
> 
> ...


Isnt the Mach1 a 335 IBO bow? Either way those are nice numbers.


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## ontarget7 (Dec 30, 2009)

cruizerjoy said:


> Isnt the Mach1 a 335 IBO bow? Either way those are nice numbers.


That’s what they rated a 6” brace height bow at. I’m glad it’s over cause that would be the slowest 6” brace height bow ever produced [emoji6]


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## cruizerjoy (Dec 20, 2016)

ontarget7 said:


> That’s what they rated a 6” brace height bow at. I’m glad it’s over cause that would be the slowest 6” brace height bow ever produced [emoji6]
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I'm not sure why they low balled the numbers but it appears to be meeting and exceeding the numbers. :thumbs_up


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## rmscustom (Mar 7, 2011)

ontarget7 said:


> Both with a 483 gr arrow
> Note
> Hoyt RX4 Alpha is a #2 cam
> 
> ...


Sweet... you cherry picked a #2 cam Hoyt at its most efficient and put it against the ec cam mid range. Congrats your influencing is going well;$

Now to be fair let’s try a #3 cam Hoyt also at 6 1/8” brace against the ec cam....

Or we could do the SE cam at 28” which is like 6 1/16” brace against the #2 Hoyt cam. 

Oh and remember that’s not even taking the brace height difference into your I don’t care about ratings only specs argument have fun boys. Haha


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## rmscustom (Mar 7, 2011)

ontarget7 said:


> Both with a 483 gr arrow
> Note
> Hoyt RX4 Alpha is a #2 cam
> 
> ...


Sweet... you cherry picked a #2 cam Hoyt at its most efficient and put it against the ec cam mid range. Congrats your influencing is going well;$

Now to be fair let’s try a #3 cam Hoyt also at 6 1/8” brace against the ec cam....

Or we could do the SE cam at 28” which is like 6 1/16” brace against the #2 Hoyt cam. 

Oh and remember that’s not even talking about the ata difference into your I don’t care about ratings only specs argument have fun boys. Haha


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## Kris87 (Sep 12, 2003)

I will have both really soon. #3 cam vs EC cam. Fair comparison. My pro Chrono is about 6-7fps slow, but it's consistent.


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## bigbucks170 (Feb 2, 2006)

Kris87 said:


> I will have both really soon. #3 cam vs EC cam. Fair comparison. My pro Chrono is about 6-7fps slow, but it's consistent.


looking forward to your comparison soon ....


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## cruizerjoy (Dec 20, 2016)

rmscustom said:


> Sweet... you cherry picked a #2 cam Hoyt at its most efficient and put it against the ec cam mid range. Congrats your influencing is going well;$
> 
> Now to be fair let’s try a #3 cam Hoyt also at 6 1/8” brace against the ec cam....
> 
> ...


I didn't take it that way. Maybe I missed something but I just thought he was showing individual speeds not comparing one against the other.


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## bigbucks170 (Feb 2, 2006)

cruizerjoy said:


> I didn't take it that way. Maybe I missed something but I just thought he was showing individual speeds not comparing one against the other.


I agree ...mach 1 had 1/2" DL more and Rx4 was 3 lbs more draw weight ..if he was comparing them he would have 
set them up the same no doubt ...


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## ontarget7 (Dec 30, 2009)

Have had a few asking about centershot. 

7/8 is more down the center on the Mach1 so I wouldn’t consider shimming if you are in that range. I’ve seen 3 now and all three tuned great at 7/8 and haven’t reshimmed one yet. 


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## PAKraig (Sep 19, 2005)

Anyone compared the draw cycles between a 65 and 70lb Mach 1 yet??


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## THE ELKMAN (Jan 2, 2013)

rmscustom said:


> Let’s be honest here...
> Hoyt is rated 342 Ibo
> Pse Is rated 332 ibo
> You’re comparing a #2 cam Hoyt at its peak efficiency compared to the evolve cam in the middle of its range.
> ...


Truth ^^^ ___ For comparison to be real you would have to compare the SE cam to the #2 cam. And Hoyt is DEFINITELY lagging on the innovation side. They have been for years. It's sad, but Dudley definitely made the right decision, and it will leave a mark on Hoyt for sure. How big? That's debatable...


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## juglow (Jan 20, 2010)

hoyt will hold its value more over PSE


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## Kris87 (Sep 12, 2003)

Shot my little Evoke 31 some more yesterday. 70#, 29" verified DL, 85% letoff, 437gr arrow, 302fps...344 IBO. It's a barn burner for such a nice draw cycle.


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## BigZsquatchin (Nov 5, 2017)

Kris87 said:


> Shot my little Evoke 31 some more yesterday. 70#, 29" verified DL, 85% letoff, 437gr arrow, 302fps...344 IBO. It's a barn burner for such a nice draw cycle.


Those are great numbers!!!
PSE is really motivating me this year


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## Kris87 (Sep 12, 2003)

My Mach 1 is in...just need some time to go pick 'er up! Should have plenty of time in the basement in the near future.


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## BigZsquatchin (Nov 5, 2017)

Send pics of it!!!!


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## BigZsquatchin (Nov 5, 2017)

I went to buy a rifle yesterday and saw that my evo nxt box was in
Hurt to leave without it but .....priorities 


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## allanon (Feb 27, 2019)

should be no need to be shimmed


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## OrancoAaron (Mar 19, 2020)

Carbon Stealth!!! Super smooth and looks really nice, nothing to complain about for it


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## THE ELKMAN (Jan 2, 2013)

OrancoAaron said:


> Carbon Stealth!!! Super smooth and looks really nice, nothing to complain about for it


Agreed. Never thought I would say this, but PSE is making the better Carbon option right now.


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## fourbarrel (May 28, 2006)

I agree had a rx3 last year have a carbon mach1 now like everything about it more.


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## THE ELKMAN (Jan 2, 2013)

Yeah they are just a better bow at this point


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## PAKraig (Sep 19, 2005)

fourbarrel said:


> I agree had a rx3 last year have a carbon mach1 now like everything about it more.


Yeah, the non repeatedly grip, humpy draw cycle at 29.5" and the unique thump at the shot are all real good selling points for the Mach 1...


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## BigZsquatchin (Nov 5, 2017)

Well..... passed 8 weeks still no bow 


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