# Proposed changes to the FCA Outdoor Championships begining in 2011



## Xs24-7 (Aug 1, 2002)

I am proposing an amendment to the format/schedule for the FCA Outdoor Championships begining in 2011. While no proposal will satisfy all, this proposal is a compromise that should address most concerns, and solve some of the issues the present format presents(specifically length of championships)
I have submitted this proposal for review, and a final draft will be forwarded to the FCA BOD for approval at the annual meeting in July. Your comments/concerns are welcome,
Ed Wilson
FCA VP High Performance

Proposal to amend the schedule for the Archery Canada Outdoor Nationals


Day 1-
Am:
Official Practise
Pm:
Fred Usher Cup/Opening Ceremonies

Day 2-
Am:
Group 1 FITA 1440-Long Distances
Group 2 Field Official Practise
PM:
Group 1 FITA 1440-Short distances
Group 2 Field rounds (24 targets)

Day 3-
Am:
Group 2 FITA 1440-Long Distances
Group 1 Field Official Practise
PM:
Group 2 FITA 1440-Short distances
Group 1 Field rounds (24 targets)

Day 4-
Am:
Group 1 FITA 720 Round
Pm:
Group 2 FITA 720 Round

Day 5-
FCA Open

National Target Champions will be named based on the result of the FITA 1440 combined with the FITA 720 round. National Field Champions will be named based on the 24 target field total. 
The composition of “Group 1” and Group 2” will be determined by the entries received. The intent is that the field be split, and that all archers in any division shoot the same rounds on the same day.
Should the host club be able to accommodate all archers on the FITA/Field course the same day, it would be permissible to not split the field and have all archers shoot FITA/Field on the same day.
Provinces will be asked to submit their names for the Fred Usher Cup prior to official practise.
This format is proposed to be introduced in time for the 2011 championships.


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## Pete731 (Aug 9, 2002)

The 5 days format is nice!


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## 97Vortec (Jan 22, 2007)

I still think it would be better to split the field and target into two separate events on separate *weekends *at different venues. It might hurt the field venue but it would allow a lot of clubs to be able to host the targets. Very few people are going to take a week off work to shoot an archery tournament anyway. 

What kind of attendance has this shoot been attracting over the past? 

I would definitly shoot both the field and targets if it were only a weekend and it was held within driving distance. For a week long event it would have to be in my back yard for me to even think about going (unless I had no job and lots of $$). I'll probably shoot it after I retire.


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## NockOn (Feb 24, 2003)

First, we have to realize that it doesn't matter what format we have, we'll never make everyone happy. So it has to be a format that will make most people happy.

For me anyway, having it over 5 days vs 7 is great. The fact that we get to keep the Field event is awesome since this is my fav event. That way I can go to the Champs and I get to shoot everyday. 

Spliting the event in two as per 97 suggested, would be practically impossible for people out of province. I wouldn't fly to BC from Halifax and have 4-5 days down time in the middle, so I would have to pick one or the other.

Question for you Ed, What if someone doesn't shoot Field, what FITA would they shoot and would they have the option to shoot the 2nd FITA? If that's the case, which one would count for the championships?

Thanks Ed for trying to find a compromise to something so difficult to accomplish, I know I apreciate the effort it takes :thumbs_up


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## Jay (Sep 18, 2002)

I like the idea of shortening the Nationals, but I am not sure if this format is best. Like NockOn said, what if a person doesn't want to shoot field? Would they have a practice range to shoot on while group 2 shoots the second FITA? Is this plausible:

Day 1: FITA official Practice
Day 2: FITA 720 - AM
Fred Usher Cup - PM
Day 3: FITA Long Distance
Day 4: FITA Short Distance
Day 5: FCA Open

And I like the one idea of giving Field Nationals away to be a separate championship. Another option to shorten the format i listed above, is Day 3 have Long in am and short in the pm. Any organizing committee should be capable of getting a whole FITA in, in 1 day.

Just my opinion though

-Jay Lyon


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## Xs24-7 (Aug 1, 2002)

Field will remain a part of the Canadian Nationals. While it may not be popular with all, there are those who support it.
It is important to note the reason for splitting the field in half each day, this allows clubs to run nationals with less equipment. It also allows us to split the number of volunteers to the 2 different venues, and this can not be done if we have everyone shooting the same round at the same time. It will also allow for 3 archers per butt, so it's unlikely we will have to run 2 lines, again making the days shorter for all.
Some may wish to skip the field. That is their choice, and I am sure they will enjoy the day off. For clubs with resources, I am sure practise butts can be set aside for those archers to shoot.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Guest (Feb 10, 2010)

I agree with Andy, seperate the field and target completely, if the field becomes a regional event then so be it, I firmly beleive that the target side would have more options and more bidders if it was only target. My club is sorta the odd ball as we couldn't host the event because it is tied to the target but if it wqas seperate we could easily host the field, heck we could actually host a 4-5 day field event with both Fita and IFAA rounds


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## bow slayer (Apr 2, 2007)

I like it. Without the field in the middle there would not have been a chance that I would have shot it, so that works out well for me. :wink:


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## Pete731 (Aug 9, 2002)

Sean McKenty said:


> I agree with Andy, seperate the field and target completely, if the field becomes a regional event then so be it, I firmly beleive that the target side would have more options and more bidders if it was only target. My club is sorta the odd ball as we couldn't host the event because it is tied to the target but if it wqas seperate we could easily host the field, heck we could actually host a 4-5 day field event with both Fita and IFAA rounds


I always been in favor of a national target championship and a national field championship separated ... but this idea doesn't have the favor at the FCA office!

We are at a cross road ... drastic changes has to be made!


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## Guest (Feb 10, 2010)

We had the same problem in Ontario many years ago, we bit the bullet seperated them and the target florished and the field was able to be held by alot more clubs as the target was able to but both together we had 1 club that had the falcilities to host it, now we have had the target champs in areas of the province that couldn't have done it with both tied together.

Our thought process was that it was better to have a low turnout than no turnout

If a person couldn't get to the target champs in BC maybe they could do a weekend in Qubec for the Field champs,this way the FCA has revenue comming in that wouldn't have been there and field would be given maybe a regional profile as opposed to none at all

compound with the fact that the FCA holds both Fita and IFAA affiliations we have several options for a Field champs and the target archers could choose the rounds that best suit them


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## Pete731 (Aug 9, 2002)

Sean McKenty said:


> We had the same problem in Ontario many years ago, we bit the bullet seperated them and the target florished and the field was able to be held by alot more clubs as the target was able to but both together we had 1 club that had the falcilities to host it, now we have had the target champs in areas of the province that couldn't have done it with both tied together.
> 
> Our thought process was that it was better to have a low turnout than no turnout
> 
> ...


I agree with you Sean!

Also, I always find that the field championship has been in the shadow of the target championship. If they are separated, may be it will rise the interest or it will be easier to do good marketing and promotion for this events in the hosted area.


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## Xs24-7 (Aug 1, 2002)

A true "National Field Championship" will not happen if not hosted alongside the FITA Nationals. Field is dead across the country, and people dont/wont travel to shoot it. There was nothing stopping people from coming to the Field nationals this year, in fact most of the countries top archers did travel to Montreal...and out of the whole country, 6 Mens Compound archers chose to shoot field. Personally I believe that the field event should be gone, but at the same time, there is still a group within the FCA who feel it is valuble, and needs to continue. The cost the the FCA and host clubs would be massive were ti run seperate, and it isnt financially viable...and what does a medal inthe field event mean when the reality is it will be held in Ontario every year, and only Ontarians will compete in it? I think its humerous that most of those who are talking about holding the field event seperate have the opportunity to travel to attend just htis event by itself each year...yet they dont, and have not shot this event outside their home province in recent history. Obviously it isnt a big enough priority for you to travel to now, what will change when it becomes a small regional event?
There is no proposal that will satisfy all, and the only alternative to this one will be a championships without field, and no field championships.


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## Xs24-7 (Aug 1, 2002)

Pete731 said:


> I agree with you Sean!
> 
> Also, I always find that the field championship has been in the shadow of the target championship. If they are separated, may be it will rise the interest or it will be easier to do good marketing and promotion for this events in the hosted area.


Every Province can host a Provincial Field championships, if a regional field event is what we need. If the demand was there, there would be well attended Provincial championships across the country...but there is not....it isnt promotion the field event needs...unless the clubs across the country make it important...and their members supporting it, field will remain the "red headed stepchild" Archers have always voted with their feet...


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## Pete731 (Aug 9, 2002)

Xs24-7 said:


> Every Province can host a Provincial Field championships, if a regional field event is what we need. If the demand was there, there would be well attended Provincial championships across the country...but there is not....it isnt promotion the field event needs...unless the clubs across the country make it important...and their members supporting it, field will remain the "red headed stepchild" Archers have always voted with their feet...


So why supporting it!?

In a managing point of view with the cost involved by hosting club for the Field and the participation, the Field championship should be dropped once a for all!

It should be target only like the Us National.


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## hotshot77 (Dec 13, 2005)

*cutting down days*

if we can shoot the whole fita in one day it would save alot of time for people as the nationals of 7 days is very long for people to get off work and school and being away. shooting a whole fita in one day would solve the issue and cut down from 7 to 4 and if we add a 720 round would be awsome.
just my opinion
corey


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## Guest (Feb 10, 2010)

Xs24-7 said:


> A true "National Field Championship" will not happen if not hosted alongside the FITA Nationals. Field is dead across the country, and people dont/wont travel to shoot it. There was nothing stopping people from coming to the Field nationals this year, in fact most of the countries top archers did travel to Montreal...and out of the whole country, 6 Mens Compound archers chose to shoot field. Personally I believe that the field event should be gone, but at the same time, there is still a group within the FCA who feel it is valuble, and needs to continue. The cost the the FCA and host clubs would be massive were ti run seperate, and it isnt financially viable...and what does a medal inthe field event mean when the reality is it will be held in Ontario every year, and only Ontarians will compete in it? I think its humerous that most of those who are talking about holding the field event seperate have the opportunity to travel to attend just htis event by itself each year...yet they dont, and have not shot this event outside their home province in recent history. Obviously it isnt a big enough priority for you to travel to now, what will change when it becomes a small regional event?
> There is no proposal that will satisfy all, and the only alternative to this one will be a championships without field, and no field championships.


Ed I don't see how holding it seperate would be more expensive???? heck with an IFAA event no judges are needed at all and we certainly don't need the number set down for a fita field event, so whats the expense?

As for the travel well for me since the FCA has no ryme or reason to championship dates I am forced to choose my holidays to those events that do, very rarly that includes the FCA champs but that another problem.

I still maintain that the targets could run better more efficient without the field tied to it, if it falls by the wayside then so be it, even the NAA field rarly gets more than 40 shooters


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## Xs24-7 (Aug 1, 2002)

I have my personal beliefs, and they are that field is hard to manage and it's removal would be for the better for our championships. That being said, if everyone demands that their way is the only way, nothing will change and we will continue to be saddled with a format that is a drain on our resources/members. That is why compromises must be made.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## 97Vortec (Jan 22, 2007)

Xs24-7 said:


> A true "National Field Championship" will not happen if not hosted alongside the FITA Nationals. Field is dead across the country, and people dont/wont travel to shoot it. There was nothing stopping people from coming to the Field nationals this year, in fact most of the countries top archers did travel to Montreal...and out of the whole country, 6 Mens Compound archers chose to shoot field. Personally I believe that the field event should be gone, but at the same time, there is still a group within the FCA who feel it is valuble, and needs to continue. The cost the the FCA and host clubs would be massive were ti run seperate, and it isnt financially viable...and what does a medal inthe field event mean when the reality is it will be held in Ontario every year, and only Ontarians will compete in it? I think its humerous that most of those who are talking about holding the field event seperate have the opportunity to travel to attend just htis event by itself each year...yet they dont, and have not shot this event outside their home province in recent history. Obviously it isnt a big enough priority for you to travel to now, what will change when it becomes a small regional event?
> There is no proposal that will satisfy all, and the only alternative to this one will be a championships without field, and no field championships.



wow.


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## ryanjeff9 (Sep 6, 2006)

it is an interesting point of view. I am a memeber of the Nationals Organizing Comittee here in Halifax for the 2010 Nationals. We are not planing on crazy number here for the Nationals next year, actually we are preparing for 50 archers for Field and 150 for Target. Now the only thing that is going to be saving us here is that our club already has a permenent 24 target FITA Field course. Now if we had to build one of these just for the Nationals to hold it seperate we would loose big time. I highly doubt that we would be able to attract more than 50 unless we turn the National Field Tournement into a Major and hold it like FITA, half marked, half unmarked and try to attract Field archers from around the world and alot of US people as Prep for their Nationals and World Field. I still doubt that we would be able to get more than 100 entants.

Jeff Ryan


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## NockOn (Feb 24, 2003)

Didn't Ontario last year run their Field Provincials at the same time as the Field Nationals?


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## Guest (Feb 10, 2010)

NockOn said:


> Didn't Ontario last year run their Field Provincials at the same time as the Field Nationals?


Yep, we were smart enough to actually set a date and stick to it, we were always waiting to see what the FCA did and they were waiting to see what everyone else did and nothing ever got done or was ptu of so long a firm date was hard to get. So we said screw it this is the date if you show up fine if you don't fine too at least you know what the date is 2 years in advance. We have move it once to accomodate the FCA's at Caledon but we had a club ready and able a free date a year in advance. This year our Target is moved to early June which will mean many will have to choose between the SpringClassic and the Provincials.

The FCA I feel should set the date in the 3rd week in August and be done will it.

We had the very same problems at the Provincial level as they do at the National level, we spent years screwing around with the rounds thinking there was some magic scheduale that would work but it never did, we split it and both target and field benifited greatly

currently we set our dates as

3-D second weekend in July
Field second weekend in August
Target second weekend in Sept

I think Ed proposal will be the next thing to try out but until a bidding club says no to the field addition they will continue just keeping the field on lifesupport.


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## #1 Hogger (Aug 17, 2005)

Setting a date and sticking to it makes a lot of sense like Sean said we in Ontario have set dates and had a good turn out for the Provincal Fields last year and I would hope better this year. Makeing a national field weekend would give those archers that want to shoot just field a chance to be in a national shoot and not have to take a lot of time off We run national indoor champs regionally


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## nrcamero (Oct 24, 2009)

Hey all,

I have a few concerns with the opinions that have been expressed with the proposed changes. 

I don't think that setting a date and "sticking with it" would work for this event. The FCA usually tries to best accompany alot of international shooters when the date for the nationals is picked. Yes, it does usually interupt the US nationals but a lot of international event dates change every year and I think that you need to change the FCA nationals date to accompany them.

Also, I highly doubt that separating the FITA and the FIELD would promote either side better. Strictly speaking I agree that the field wouldn't survive on it's own for very long. If you are travelling to a large archery event, why not shoot both the fita and the field? I don't think that I'd be willing to pay for flights to two smaller separate events across Canada rather than one large event that promotes both types of shooting. I agree the field could be better promoted and the fact that it hides in the shadow of the FITA tournament is an attitude thing as far as I am concerned. 

However, I do agree that if an archer doesn't want to shoot field that they are in a bind. But, you can't please everyone. My only other concern is that if the FITA and the FIELD ranges are not close together that travel may be an issue. In 2008 the Winnipeg nationals were really well put on but if you were travelling with archers that needed to shoot field while you shot fita, it wouldn't have been easy to do. That's my only major concern and as long as the host club can deal with that then this shorter format solves MOST of the major issues. 

Just my two cents on the matter


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## Guest (Feb 17, 2010)

nrcamero said:


> Hey all,
> 
> I have a few concerns with the opinions that have been expressed with the proposed changes.
> 
> ...


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## cdhunter (Feb 4, 2006)

I put some thought in before I started typing so here we go

I think before we start removing the field event from the nationals we need to take a look at the number of registered field events a year. In Manitoba for nationals the organizing committee put a significant time in to setting up a permanent quality field course open to all clubs in abam to utilize and run field events, a legacy so to speak. No clubs have utilized this course for a organized event since nationals, why? In Mb field is dead, Pole archery is better attended.

That being said on this very forum I have heard people in the western provinces having a hard enough time getting people together to host a target fita as 3d is the dominant target event out west. Red deer has become the home of Canada's indoor 3d championships almost by acclamation.

While I think Sean maybe onto something with fixed dates, many of our top archers are attending world cup events or other major championships at the same time as our own nationals. throw in early hunting seasons cool springs and our choice of weekends diminishes quickly.

the largest elephant in the room when fields comes up is cost. Cost to put on, cost to attend, cost in holidays. I personally believe this is why field is dying and I'm sad to say target as well just not as fast. Till we find some way to address this issue field will always be on the edge of extinction. Ed's proposal is a good start in addressing the holiday portion of cost. Cost to the host clubs to put on will require some creativity and possible sponsor ship. Cost to attend, the solution will offend some but the fact is simple seat sales to most major urban centers are readily available as are accommodations and alternatives for food. lets face it a week of restaurants will kill the pocket book quickly. Most urban centers have more than one club making joint ventures such as interlake/tenex clubs co hosting as they did in Winnipeg possible, further off setting the individual debt to a single club. 

No one single thing will fix field nationals. Eds' proposal is a start, from some one who like the vast vocal majority would sooner see field put out of it's misery. Now it is time for field supporters to step up and offer some solutions other tha splitting the two events up


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## NockOn (Feb 24, 2003)

I don't get when people say that hosting the field event will lose them money...

Is the goal of hosting Nationals to make money? I think there is enough money made with the FITA event that even if a few hundred dollars go towards the field event, it shouldn't be a big deal. The host committee will still make money.

We hear people say how much money is lost hosting the field but I would like to hear how much they made on the FITA. I'm not 100% sure but a few years back, NB used the FITA butts to run the Field event. I don't think they lost money on the field event. Here in NS, we have 2 clubs with a field course. One has 12 targets and the other where the Nationals will be held this summer has 24 targets. Most of the targets for this summer's Nationals have been sponsored by local business. I don't think it will lose money.

I don't have any magic pill to make more people show up though, I wish I did. But one thing for sure, if the PSOs don't support it and don't start hosting Field Provincials, we will never increase the attendance at Nationals.


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## cdhunter (Feb 4, 2006)

NockOn said:


> I don't get when people say that hosting the field event will lose them money...
> 
> Is the goal of hosting Nationals to make money? I think there is enough money made with the FITA event that even if a few hundred dollars go towards the field event, it shouldn't be a big deal. The host committee will still make money.
> 
> ...


I'm going to touch on two of your points Nock on both which I agree are valid. The point of hosting nationals as you point out is not to make money, however the host committee in most circumstances cannot afford to carry a deficit neither. In NS you have one more field course than we do in Manitoba which is owned and operated by the pso!!!!

As far as promoting a provincial field championship in Manitoba first you would have to find a host club!!!!! and with our hunting season for archery opening at the end of August good luck with finding archers. I tried looking up the attendance for fita provincial championship in Mb, but they were not available. Rich or Ed could confirm this for me but I think attendance for that event was between 5 and 10 people. In contrast our opening out door event held on good friday had more than twenty people in the snow.

For a resurgence in field attendance in Manitoba we would have to turn to the 3d shooters to put away the foam critters and for some reason I don't see that happening.


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## NockOn (Feb 24, 2003)

Its not about agreeing or disagreeing. We just need to find a solution. Here in NS we had I believe maybe a grand total of 7 or 8 archers for our Field Provincials and maybe 10 for the Target. Our Provincials are a combine event Field on Sat and a 1200 on Sunday.

But a couple of years ago, I think we had 4 archers for the Field so I guess we should be proud to claim that our numbers almost doubled :shade:


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