# Bow Shoulder



## icecoldx

Hi,

Recently I developed a problem where my bow arm would start shaking violently as soon as I reach full draw.

I have tried lower poundage and lower mass weight (or stabilizer weight) but nothing seems to work.

Long story short, I tried to seek help from different people and one gentleman advised try bent at the elbow like Jesse/Chance/Levi.

My shaking instantly reduced but I developed an other issue where my shoulder keeps coming up.

https://youtu.be/kgDcBFdmjjo 

https://youtu.be/LzJ3lJgUlCA

https://youtu.be/8T6SlKBw2v8

If you check out video two, I try to force my shoulder forward and down adding a few pound... it's all fine and well until I bent my elbow, my shoulder just compress and come up.

An other lovely gentleman said I could increase my draw length, but here are my opinion.

Increase DL:
- My elbow will no longer be able to bent
- Prime has 0.5 DL incremental for EACH cam, meaning I will have to buy 2-3 cam in order to fine tune this ($600....)

Stay as current DL:
- I can bent my elbow
- Shoulder comes up and shaking happens again

Any advise or help would be greatly appreciated. Please feel free to criticize other form issue as well.

Regards,
Jono


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## Supermag1

Actually, you want to decrease your DL, not increase it. A DL that is too long will lead to troubles with a high shoulder. By bending your elbow, you're effectively shortening your body's DL so your shoulder comes up and out to try and make up for it to match the bow's DL.


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## icecoldx

Supermag1 said:


> Actually, you want to decrease your DL, not increase it. A DL that is too long will lead to troubles with a high shoulder. By bending your elbow, you're effectively shortening your body's DL so your shoulder comes up and out to try and make up for it to match the bow's DL.


Thanks! But unfortunately I still can't get my head around why decreasing instead of increasing.

Sorry if this sounds stupid but basically I preload the shoulder forward and down (which what most people said is optimal position), once at full draw I bent my elbow slightly (and DL will shorten slightly too) which allows me to anchor as well. If i shorten the DL, wouldn't that make my shoulder crunch up into my neck even more ? Where as if I increase the DL I can somehow learn or force my shoulder to drop back down hence DL will increase slightly.

Jono


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## chiefjason

Honestly, a pic would probably be better for diagnosing draw length than those videos. Not trying to be a jerk, but how long have you been shooting? Almost sounds like your shoulder is fatiguing. I shoot with a slightly bent elbow and the only time I get shaky is if I get tired. 

Did you change anything with the bow before this started? Draw weight? Maybe the valley has changed and you are holding more weight at full draw than you are used too.


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## montigre

It looks like you have to decrease your DL by at least 0.75". In the first video, it is clear that you're aligning your draw elbow behind the line of the arrow. In all 3 videos, you're leaning back quite a lot which is another indicator that your DL is too long. 

Also, you're not engaging your back muscles to effect the shot--again, due to the long DL. Your artificial follow through occurs in all 3 videos about 1/2 sec after the arrow is released. A natural follow through is an explosive (not necessarily big) movement that occurs as a direct result of the release and occurs at the time of release--not afterward.

I'd recommend that you find a good coach or more experienced shooter to work with you in person and help you get your DL perfect for you and work on your form and shot execution. You've got a load of really good shooters there down under; don't be afraid to reach out to them. :wink:


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## aread

There are two general causes of shaking. One is medical which is very unlikely, but possible. The other is excess tension somewhere in your form. 

My first suggestion mirrors the others, shorten your DL by at least 1/2", maybe more. You need that to get your back muscles engaged properly with a little left to pull through the shot. Like Montigre posted, you are not getting a real follow through that is explosive. We can't see from the videos, but your DL is probably too long to have room left to be explosive.

Every pro archer I've ever seen has something about their form that's not in accordance with classic form. But as one very good coach told me, "Classic form is just a place to start." But it works out a lot better if you do start with "Classic Form". It's worked pretty well for a lot of years. Jessie, Chance, Levi & others have studied this stuff for years. They know classic form and know how departing from it will work better for their shot. Each of these guys has shot millions of arrows working on their shot. It works better not to emulate them, but listen to what they say. They know that their form isn't "Classic" and know that other things work better for other people. Study "Classic Form" first, then find what works better for YOU. In the case of the bow arm, straight, but not locked is "Classic form". But some have found that slightly bent works better for them.


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## icecoldx

Thanks guys!


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## icecoldx

montigre said:


> It looks like you have to decrease your DL by at least 0.75". In the first video, it is clear that you're aligning your draw elbow behind the line of the arrow. In all 3 videos, you're leaning back quite a lot which is another indicator that your DL is too long.
> 
> Also, you're not engaging your back muscles to effect the shot--again, due to the long DL. Your artificial follow through occurs in all 3 videos about 1/2 sec after the arrow is released. A natural follow through is an explosive (not necessarily big) movement that occurs as a direct result of the release and occurs at the time of release--not afterward.
> 
> I'd recommend that you find a good coach or more experienced shooter to work with you in person and help you get your DL perfect for you and work on your form and shot execution. You've got a load of really good shooters there down under; don't be afraid to reach out to them. :wink:


Thanks Montigre, most constructive feedback so far. I have not shorten my DL yet but I am 99% sure the string will not reach my anchor point at my mouth and nose if I done so (it was actually 0.5" to 1" shorter before). I can overcome that again if I bent at the elbow but my shoulder will come up again and seems like the cycle repeats.

I will try get someone in person to have a look moving forward


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## nuts&bolts

icecoldx said:


> Hi,
> 
> Recently I developed a problem where my bow arm would start shaking violently as soon as I reach full draw.
> 
> I have tried lower poundage and lower mass weight (or stabilizer weight) but nothing seems to work.
> 
> Long story short, I tried to seek help from different people and one gentleman advised try bent at the elbow like Jesse/Chance/Levi.
> 
> My shaking instantly reduced but I developed an other issue where my shoulder keeps coming up.
> 
> https://youtu.be/kgDcBFdmjjo
> 
> https://youtu.be/LzJ3lJgUlCA
> 
> https://youtu.be/8T6SlKBw2v8
> 
> If you check out video two, I try to force my shoulder forward and down adding a few pound... it's all fine and well until I bent my elbow, my shoulder just compress and come up.
> 
> An other lovely gentleman said I could increase my draw length, but here are my opinion.
> 
> Increase DL:
> - My elbow will no longer be able to bent
> - Prime has 0.5 DL incremental for EACH cam, meaning I will have to buy 2-3 cam in order to fine tune this ($600....)
> 
> Stay as current DL:
> - I can bent my elbow
> - Shoulder comes up and shaking happens again
> 
> Any advise or help would be greatly appreciated. Please feel free to criticize other form issue as well.
> 
> Regards,
> Jono


Poundage is not your issue. Copying Reo Wilde is your issue. So, here is your form photo.



Here is a composite photo of YOU leaning backwards, copying Reo Wilde, but not exactly....then, a photo of Reo Wilde leaning backwards, but DIFFERENT from how YOU lean backwards, and then trailerdog who does not lean backwards. There are reasons why leaning BACKWARDS works for REO, and there are similarities between Reo and Trailerdog, who does NOT lean backwards. The similarities are in the BOW shoulder to ELBOW joint. The Bowside UPPER arm is darn near parallel to the arrow, for REO. AND...AND, the Bowside UPPER arm is DEAD parallel to the arrow, for Trailerdog. Unfortunately...for YOU...your Bowside UPPER arm is nowhere NEAR parallel to YOUR arrow.



So, you could UNBEND your bow arm elbow and get that BOWside elbow HIGHER above the ground, and then, you would not "reach" YOUR ANCHOR...and you would need to lean backwards EVEN MORE...but, to prevent you from falling backwards...you will need about 220 pounds on the end of your front stabilizer, to keep you from falling onto the ground, cuz you would have to lean backwards EVEN MORE than you already do. BUT...you would also UNBEND your bow arm elbow...and get the Bowside UPPER ARM to parallel to the arrow, when at full draw...AND shorten draw length, AND...learn how to stand more like TrailerDog.

RED LINE is the arrow. RED line is parallel to the arrow launch angle. YELLOW arrow is the angle of your bow side UPPER arm. You need to stop with the BENDING of the bow arm elbow and push the riser as FAR as possible from your face. GET the ENTIRE bow arm in a straight line (near zero bend in the elbow) and then, have a friend POKE your right armpit, and PUSH your forwards. FOR my students who have difficulty with leaning BACKWARDS...I have them stand...in YOUR CASE about 6-inches away from a target...the END of your front stab is 6-inches from the target face, at FULL draw. Then, plant your feet and FORCE the end of your front stab to TOUCH the target. Yup, you will need to LEAN FORWARDS and put MORE and MORe and MORE weight onto your LEFT ankle.



THIS guy has severe neck and lower back issues. If HE can learn how to stand up straight...then, you can do it too!


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## icecoldx

nuts&bolts said:


> Poundage is not your issue. Copying Reo Wilde is your issue. So, here is your form photo.
> 
> 
> 
> Here is a composite photo of YOU leaning backwards, copying Reo Wilde, but not exactly....then, a photo of Reo Wilde leaning backwards, but DIFFERENT from how YOU lean backwards, and then trailerdog who does not lean backwards. There are reasons why leaning BACKWARDS works for REO, and there are similarities between Reo and Trailerdog, who does NOT lean backwards. The similarities are in the BOW shoulder to ELBOW joint. The Bowside UPPER arm is darn near parallel to the arrow, for REO. AND...AND, the Bowside UPPER arm is DEAD parallel to the arrow, for Trailerdog. Unfortunately...for YOU...your Bowside UPPER arm is nowhere NEAR parallel to YOUR arrow.
> 
> 
> 
> So, you could UNBEND your bow arm elbow and get that BOWside elbow HIGHER above the ground, and then, you would not "reach" YOUR ANCHOR...and you would need to lean backwards EVEN MORE...but, to prevent you from falling backwards...you will need about 220 pounds on the end of your front stabilizer, to keep you from falling onto the ground, cuz you would have to lean backwards EVEN MORE than you already do. BUT...you would also UNBEND your bow arm elbow...and get the Bowside UPPER ARM to parallel to the arrow, when at full draw...AND shorten draw length, AND...learn how to stand more like TrailerDog.
> 
> RED LINE is the arrow. RED line is parallel to the arrow launch angle. YELLOW arrow is the angle of your bow side UPPER arm. You need to stop with the BENDING of the bow arm elbow and push the riser as FAR as possible from your face. GET the ENTIRE bow arm in a straight line (near zero bend in the elbow) and then, have a friend POKE your right armpit, and PUSH your forwards. FOR my students who have difficulty with leaning BACKWARDS...I have them stand...in YOUR CASE about 6-inches away from a target...the END of your front stab is 6-inches from the target face, at FULL draw. Then, plant your feet and FORCE the end of your front stab to TOUCH the target. Yup, you will need to LEAN FORWARDS and put MORE and MORe and MORE weight onto your LEFT ankle.
> 
> 
> 
> THIS guy has severe neck and lower back issues. If HE can learn how to stand up straight...then, you can do it too!


Thanks nuts&bolts! Brilliant explanations. I tried straighten everything and have my arm and arrow close to parallel, I can't seems to get into anchor point since the string are just abit too short from my face. Would it be a good idea to lengthen my DL in this case ?

Jono


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## nuts&bolts

icecoldx said:


> Thanks nuts&bolts! Brilliant explanations. I tried straighten everything and have my arm and arrow close to parallel, I can't seems to get into anchor point since the string are just abit too short from my face. Would it be a good idea to lengthen my DL in this case ?
> 
> Jono


I don't recommend the REO style. If you continue your MASSIVE leaning backwards...you need a LOT more weight on the front stab to prevent you from falling backwards. This requires a GREAT deal of upper body strength, and you would need to go LONGER on the draw length to COMPLETELY copy the REO style. I much prefer you use the EDGE of a door to FORCE you to lean FORWARDS to stand up STRAIGHTer. Stand at full draw so that your front stab is 6-inches away from the target. Then, lean FORWARDS, and put 90% of your weight on the LEFT ankle and get the stab to TOUCh the target with the end of your stab. Take a new photo, when you are standing up STRAIGHT and you will have NO trouble with anchor.

Watch this video by John Dudley about draw length and Classic T Form. You try.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oG0nb01SGMA

See how John Dudley is standing with NO bow? YOu try.


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## icecoldx

nuts&bolts said:


> I don't recommend the REO style. If you continue your MASSIVE leaning backwards...you need a LOT more weight on the front stab to prevent you from falling backwards. This requires a GREAT deal of upper body strength, and you would need to go LONGER on the draw length to COMPLETELY copy the REO style. I much prefer you use the EDGE of a door to FORCE you to lean FORWARDS to stand up STRAIGHTer. Stand at full draw so that your front stab is 6-inches away from the target. Then, lean FORWARDS, and put 90% of your weight on the LEFT ankle and get the stab to TOUCh the target with the end of your stab. Take a new photo, when you are standing up STRAIGHT and you will have NO trouble with anchor.
> 
> Watch this video by John Dudley about draw length and Classic T Form. You try.
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oG0nb01SGMA
> 
> See how John Dudley is standing with NO bow? YOu try.


Thanks again. Sorry I don't actually mean I want to go REO's path.

I normally shoots with T form until I started trying the bent elbow techniques.

Now because I normally depress my shoulder down with the T form, my DL seems to be a little longer due to my shoulder moving forward towards the target.

In return the d loop won't reach my face. Hope that make sense.

Jono


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## nuts&bolts

Follow all the steps in the John Dudley draw length video. Closed fist touching a wall while standing in t form. Have a friend measure from the wall to the corner of your mouth. Lets say you get 27-inches. Put your bow in a draw board. Measure from the pipe of the draw board to the center serving between d loop knots...with the bow at full draw. 27-inch AMO draw length means the tape measure should read 25.25-inches........1.75-inches less than the John Dudley fist on wall to corner of mouth measurement. Practice t form with your fist on the wall and your backbone parallel to the wall...standing up straight. Hold your right hand to your chest when fist is touching the wall. Raise your release hand to your anchor with your bow hand fist touching the wall. Try to stand with bow handfist touching the wall and NOT leaning backwards. Stand at the wall just like John Dudley in the video.


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## nuts&bolts

Using the John Dudley method....what measurement do you get?


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## icecoldx

nuts&bolts said:


> Using the John Dudley method....what measurement do you get?


Let me try that and get back to you. (Sorry I am still at work so I won't be able to try it till tomorrow with a friend).


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## icecoldx

nuts&bolts said:


> Using the John Dudley method....what measurement do you get?


Sorry about the wait. 

T form comes up as 27.5" from post to corner of my mouth (leveled)

D loop to bow grip comes up as 26"

This is my original form before I try to use bent elbow. 

My left arm would shake alot and I can't get my second anchor (nose and string) in place with my original straight arm form.


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## nuts&bolts

icecoldx said:


> Sorry about the wait.
> 
> T form comes up as 27.5" from post to corner of my mouth (leveled)
> 
> D loop to bow grip comes up as 26"
> 
> This is my original form before I try to use bent elbow.
> 
> My left arm would shake alot and I can't get my second anchor (nose and string) in place with my original straight arm form.


So, the John Dudley measurement is 27.5-inches.



That means, the PIVOT point to NOCK groove measurement should be 25.75-inches. Cuz, 25.75-inches PLUS 1.75-inches = 27.5"
So, if "D loop to bow grip" is the same as Nock Groove to Pivot POINT...then, your bow draw length is 0.25-inches TOO long. Second anchor (NOSE to string) is not always possible, because of face shape, because of nose length, because of string angle due to bow ATA.


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## nuts&bolts

icecoldx said:


> Sorry about the wait.
> 
> T form comes up as 27.5" from post to corner of my mouth (leveled)
> 
> D loop to bow grip comes up as 26"
> 
> This is my original form before I try to use bent elbow.
> 
> My left arm would shake alot and I can't get my second anchor (nose and string) in place with my original straight arm form.


Study this video about WEDGE form...this will help with the arm shaking.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8pCejcb6DAI&list=PLgbLzH5QIFaOB0tM39_vPXoXC5WboDlQJ

Actually SEVEN videos about WEDGE form. Sure, he is a recurve archery coach, but his lessons about POSTURE will help you with the arm shaking and compound bow form.


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## nuts&bolts

nuts&bolts said:


> So, the John Dudley measurement is 27.5-inches.
> 
> 
> 
> That means, the PIVOT point to NOCK groove measurement should be 25.75-inches. Cuz, 25.75-inches PLUS 1.75-inches = 27.5"
> So, if "D loop to bow grip" is the same as Nock Groove to Pivot POINT...then, your bow draw length is 0.25-inches TOO long. Second anchor (NOSE to string) is not always possible, because of face shape, because of nose length, because of string angle due to bow ATA.


If you can get into the WEDGE form...your bow at D loop to bow group at 26" will FIT you better. See the seven video series about WEDGE form.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8pCejcb6DAI&list=PLgbLzH5QIFaOB0tM39_vPXoXC5WboDlQJ


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## icecoldx

nuts&bolts said:


> nuts&bolts said:
> 
> 
> 
> So, the John Dudley measurement is 27.5-inches.
> 
> 
> 
> That means, the PIVOT point to NOCK groove measurement should be 25.75-inches. Cuz, 25.75-inches PLUS 1.75-inches = 27.5"
> So, if "D loop to bow grip" is the same as Nock Groove to Pivot POINT...then, your bow draw length is 0.25-inches TOO long. Second anchor (NOSE to string) is not always possible, because of face shape, because of nose length, because of string angle due to bow ATA.
> 
> 
> 
> If you can get into the WEDGE form...your bow at D loop to bow group at 26" will FIT you better. See the seven video series about WEDGE form.
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8pCejcb6DAI&list=PLgbLzH5QIFaOB0tM39_vPXoXC5WboDlQJ
Click to expand...

Make sense.. Thank you so much. Really appreciate the time and effort.


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## icecoldx

nuts&bolts said:


> If you can get into the WEDGE form...your bow at D loop to bow group at 26" will FIT you better. See the seven video series about WEDGE form.
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8pCejcb6DAI&list=PLgbLzH5QIFaOB0tM39_vPXoXC5WboDlQJ


Nuts&bolts, just one last question. Say as a right handed shooter in wedge form, does my stance still remains as front foot slightly left and right foot slight right instead of point feet parallel pointing directly right?

Jono


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## nuts&bolts

icecoldx said:


> Nuts&bolts, just one last question. Say as a right handed shooter in wedge form, does my stance still remains as front foot slightly left and right foot slight right instead of point feet parallel pointing directly right?
> 
> Jono


To keep things SIMPLE...feet, ankles, knees, hips, shoulders ALL parallel, when in wedge form. Do SIMPLE..before trying more advanced techniques, like shoulders in WEDGE form and the ankles in a counter-wedge.


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