# side bar compensation / torque



## pherrley (Jan 24, 2015)

I'm fairly new to archery and have always been told that torquing bow will most definitely result in a bad shot... possibly the end of the world. 

Watching some pros shoot on World Archery tv, I noticed that a lot of people have quite a bit of side bar weight. More than could possibly be offset by the sight. Also, on the Easton podcast, Steve Anderson said the side bar is intentionally set to NOT balance the bow, and the archer will level the bow with their bow hand.

Is this something that is unknown to most target archers? How common is this in competitive archery? Would this be better than using V-bars (balancing the bow)?

here is an image for example: http://www.zimbio.com/pictures/7lMX1-n_RIn/Archery+World+Cup+Stage+4/rXrjz2ZoOyV/Reo+Wilde


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## grantmac (May 31, 2007)

I think we need (for the purposes of this conversation) to define torque.
Generally it's the differential pressure into the grip which causes an unwanted movement around the vertical axis. It won't show up as bubble movement. 

What you are talking about is movement around the longitudinal axis, which will be apparent in the bubble.

There are two schools of thought on the second one.
1) set the bow up so there is no pressure required to establish and maintain a level bubble.
Advantage is less fatigue and easier to run the shot passively. May be less stable when outside influences (wind) acts on the bow.
2) set the bow up so a constant amount of pressure is required to level the bubble. 
Advantage is that varying the amount of pressure but never removing it entirely is supposed to be easier than having to change directions. The added muscle use to maintain level can also result in less movement during a gust.

My personal experience is that #2 is only for shooters with exceptional fitness and the time to really master it. I have neither of those things so I stick with #1.

Grant


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## cbrunson (Oct 25, 2010)

The term "torqueing the bow" refers to inconsistent twisting at the grip causing left or right changes in POI from one shot to another. Side bar loading is independent from torqueing.


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

Both good points above. And dual back (V) bars doesn't necessarily mean one is balancing the bow.


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## bigHUN (Feb 5, 2006)

#1 for me 
and I have both almost identical side bars, the weight difference between L-R (not for counterweight the bubble but for tightening the groups) is about two washers for (outdoor) FITA, two washers more on my side of the bow. This is changing from day to day about a single or eventually two washers mostly my side of the bow.
Jumping a game between (outdoor) FITA to a Field I found shortening DL of roughly about 3-4 millimeters (bc of up-downhill shots using a same "length" release...you don't have to change DL if using different neck-length releases) and maybe 1-2 washers off from front rod.
Indoor FITA... I don't like to play much (beside the fact I am up in Canada more closer to Santa Claus and our winter lasts way longer as your) so just use my outdoor rigs as is...good enough for 18meters=20 yards.
To notice these small differences you must be well trained or have at least two - absolutely identical bows/setups.


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## Bowthrow (Nov 30, 2012)

I lean towards agreeing with Steve Anderson. I've learned this through trial and error as well as deciphering why the how does what it does. 

My perspective in this is when I hold my bow arm forward and completely let my hand/forearm limp, it naturally tilts inward. Picking up your bow and doing the same will cause the bow to tilt as well. I use a sidebar to offset this imbalance. It goes back to the old thought that when needing to add pressure by using muscles required to tense, i.e. holding the bow upright instead of using a sidebar, the shots as a whole are harder to be consistent. What if your muscles are just a little more taught than the last time you shot ending in more "torque"? What if you're more fatigued after a long day of work and your strength isn't the same as the day before? 

By removing the need to tense or use muscles you remove some of those variables.


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## bigHUN (Feb 5, 2006)

I have couple world class Olympic shooters in my neighborhood, sometimes we practice together. I like how and what they train, very educational.... 
I have in my wishlist to get one of those bows and maybe spend couple months "resetting", cleaning bad habits.


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## pherrley (Jan 24, 2015)

well I tried setting the side bar farther out to one side. it seemed to help me draw smoother, but I'm having some trouble keeping the bow balanced without thinking about it. As soon as I start my shot process, I stop thinking about the level and the bow tips. 

Also, with the bar way out to the side, I started shaking because I was not used to using those muscles like that.


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## Bowthrow (Nov 30, 2012)

pherrley said:


> well I tried setting the side bar farther out to one side. it seemed to help me draw smoother, but I'm having some trouble keeping the bow balanced without thinking about it. As soon as I start my shot process, I stop thinking about the level and the bow tips.
> 
> Also, with the bar way out to the side, I started shaking because I was not used to using those muscles like that.


It definitely shouldn't make you shake. Also, the idea behind leveling the bow is that when at full draw you don't need to think about it or use any kind of muscles, it should simply hang vertical. So, having said that, you will have to play with weights and position of the side bar in order to come up with a setup that works for your build. My advice is do not do it all in one session. Shoot a short session maybe 10-12 arrows and give it at least a half hour break. Reason for this isn't just physical but your mind will start to get screwed up if you're constantly messing with the weights. It's best to try is one way for a short time then if needed make adjustments then come back later and see if those adjustments work.


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

pherrley said:


> I'm fairly new to archery and have always been told that torquing bow will most definitely result in a bad shot... possibly the end of the world.


Reading this and below.... No amount of stab weight will correct bad hand placement to the riser grip. There is no "muscling." Okay, you haven't given a whole lot of information. What length stabs front and back. Hand to riser correct most all torque is nullified, not all. Draw length and more may be a issue.

Most of us have some idea how we want to set up our stabs. For someone new, I'd start with no weights, just stabs. Start adding as you think, but go by a formula by George Ryals, aka, Griv. It will get you in the ball park. Work with the weights you have for a period of time. It won't take long to get something going. As you shoot, time goes by you can experiment, move around or add. 

Griv's formula as follows is still just a in the Ball Park thing….. Bows are different, people are different.

"length of front bar times weight on front bar = "X"

Then:
"X" divided by length of back bar = weight on back bar.

example:
27" Front bar length times weight of 4 ounces = 108
108 / 12" rear bar length = 9 ounces for the rear bar.

You then take the 9 ounces, put it on the rear bar. If you do a true V bar, you split the weights between the two bars. If you do a side bar, you do it on the solo side bar.

You then add or remove weight on the rear bar only. Aim for the X. Remove or add weight until your side to side "misses" are down to a nice, ragged oval that basically kills the X."

You have Reo. As the pics went in, my MarXman and 3 different stab set ups. In order, 30" stab with 2 1/2 oz and MaxJax and Bernie's fully weight ball dampeners. 30" stab with 2 1/2" on and MaXJax and 10" back bar with 6 oz. 30" stab with 7 oz on front and 10 degree down quick disconnect, 7 oz on right back, 12 oz on left back. All work for me. 
Chance with a Indoor rig and a 3D rig both with low set back stabs and some degree down front stab. Tim Gillingham (6'6" tall) with low set long, long back stabs and not shown is some degree down front stab.

How much does Reo, Chance and Tim have? Last pic 8 oz. My hand is 3 7/8" wide.


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