# What is your Primary Method of Hinge Execution?



## Rugby (Feb 13, 2003)

What would be useful to know is what is the most accurate method.

It would appear the pros do not use the top one (according to Levi).

The advantage of relaxing the hand and arm appears you are less likely to "pull" off line.

Been an interesting month on here.


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## RCR_III (Mar 19, 2011)

That's a question that can't be answered by anyone but yourself. There's no one size fit all to accuracy and how you execute a shot with a hinge release. I've put the time behind the string on all the methods to find what I like the best. I'm accurate with all of them. But, I have found tendencies with all of them that are common for my misses. What I did was find the method I could shoot with the smallest misses. The most infrequent misses. And the side affects resulting from the method being something that interfered as little as possible and gave me good shots time after time.


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## markdenis (Sep 7, 2010)

You forgot to put another option to choose from...Jerk the crap out of it.


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## field14 (May 21, 2002)

How's about "Letting it happen because the site is sitting still WHEN I'm doing it right and bouncing all over the place when I'm not "doing it right?"
If you are so focused on the release and the release hand and back tension, you are already TIGHT and NOT "relaxed" and since you are thinking release, and you can only concentrate on one thing at a time, then you are thinking in the past while the shot is going off in the present and you are hoping the future turns out...because you aren't really focused on the point...the impact point of the arrow, that is!
Those top pros really don't "think about it", they just GET IT DONE. They know that if the site is sitting still, they are "there" with regard to the physics and biomechanics...if the site is bouncing around, they are NOT "there" and will let down. You don't see the pros let down often.
Why? Because they have practiced to the point where they rarely get it wrong...while the beginners and mid-level shooters are practicing to try to get it right...and changing everything all at once searching for a magic bullet.

field14 (Tom D.)
field14 (Tom D.)


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## unclejane (Jul 22, 2012)

markdenis said:


> You forgot to put another option to choose from...Jerk the crap out of it.


Good point. I'm proof positive that you can definitely punch a hinge. 

LS


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## AitchAr (Aug 4, 2013)

I'm new-ish to shooting with a hinge. So far, Padgett's _squeeze and pull method_ has provided the most consistent execution for me.


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## N7709K (Dec 17, 2008)

none of the above. the options outside ONLY bt all consist of static shots with hand manipulation (even how Griv's method of yielding is posed). I setup the shot relaxed and stay relaxed THROUGHOUT the shot; pressure between the halves is building during the entire shot process. Due to the platform being relaxed, as that pressure between the halves builds the hand stretches and the release fires. 

The only method I will speak to is Griv's- it requires the back to be engaged for the ENTIRE process to execute correctly; pressure builds between the halves and capitalized upon the relaxed platform to fire a release.


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## ride394 (Oct 16, 2006)

field14 said:


> How's about "Letting it happen because the site is sitting still WHEN I'm doing it right and bouncing all over the place when I'm not "doing it right?"
> If you are so focused on the release and the release hand and back tension, you are already TIGHT and NOT "relaxed" and since you are thinking release, and you can only concentrate on one thing at a time, then you are thinking in the past while the shot is going off in the present and you are hoping the future turns out...because you aren't really focused on the point...the impact point of the arrow, that is!
> Those top pros really don't "think about it", they just GET IT DONE. They know that if the site is sitting still, they are "there" with regard to the physics and biomechanics...if the site is bouncing around, they are NOT "there" and will let down. You don't see the pros let down often.
> Why? Because they have practiced to the point where they rarely get it wrong...while the beginners and mid-level shooters are practicing to try to get it right...and changing everything all at once searching for a magic bullet.
> ...


You're right, but at some point these pros had to make a decision which method worked for them and then practice it in the subconscious. So I think the question is which method have you practiced to the point that it just works or which method have you decided that you are going to practice to that point. If you're consciously picking one then your are far from the top of your game. I finally picked mine, not I have to practice it into submission!


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## cbrunson (Oct 25, 2010)

You know your release process whether you just sit back and let it happen or focus on it. You focused on it before to get it where you can just trust it now.


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## markdenis (Sep 7, 2010)

unclejane said:


> Good point. I'm proof positive that you can definitely punch a hinge.
> 
> LS


Here is my method:

Pull back and anchor then aim, aim, then aim a little harder, then aim real hard...then relax, relax, relax, relax, then pull awhile, then pull some more, then pull really hard. After all that let down cause you arms feel like spaghetti and your oxygen is gone. Take a couple of minutes for everything to come back...then pull back and anchor then jerk the crap out of it so you don't have to go through all you went through the first time!


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## Rugby (Feb 13, 2003)

F_rom RCR III; That's a question that can't be answered by anyone but yourself. There's no one size fit all to accuracy and how you execute a shot with a hinge release. I've put the time behind the string on all the methods to find what I like the best. I'm accurate with all of them. But, I have found tendencies with all of them that are common for my misses. What I did was find the method I could shoot with the smallest misses. The most infrequent misses. And the side affects resulting from the method being something that interfered as little as possible and gave me good shots time after time._

It should be a question that can be answered by a coach. They should be able to give the pros and cons of each method and be able to demonstrate, give examples of what they are saying is correct.
The hardest thing is of course to change "established" views of what is best. It can be very difficult for someone to change if they think they are going to lose face over it.
Once accurate data is presented then change should be adopted, in fact it would be foolish to continue along a path proven to be wrong.

I watched a documentary on the Hedron Collider and as more experiments were performed and data gathered, physicists who had dedicated decades of work to the location of the "God" particle say all of this work disproved as new data came to light.

I have taught the top two methods for a long time but are starting to believe I have been teaching a method which is not the most accurate. I have been trying the last option for a few weeks now and I am pleased with the results. I am trying to locate as much data as possible on why it is more accurate. It would appear a lot of the winning pros use this method or a variation of it.

It would be good to know which method is proven to be more accurate and how to teach people to shoot this way.


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## RCR_III (Mar 19, 2011)

I can give my findings on each method if you like? Atleast my own personal experiences. I would think you could talk to a hinge shooter and ask them what their hang ups and findings are as they come across them and suggest different methods to try based on that.


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## unclejane (Jul 22, 2012)

markdenis said:


> Here is my method:
> 
> Pull back and anchor then aim, aim, then aim a little harder, then aim real hard...then relax, relax, relax, relax, then pull awhile, then pull some more, then pull really hard. After all that let down cause you arms feel like spaghetti and your oxygen is gone. Take a couple of minutes for everything to come back...then pull back and anchor then jerk the crap out of it so you don't have to go through all you went through the first time!


... and the release aid goes in the X every time, exactly... that's my same exact firing engine! Where's that "like" button... 

LS


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## Rugby (Feb 13, 2003)

That would be good RCR III I guess the main problem and it has been mentioned here a lot lately is many have invested considerable time in a shooting method because this method was pro ported to be the best one. Then Levi said it wasn't. 

While all of the methods in your poll have been around for a while people have not been able to see past the conventional wisdom of our time and see the advantages of these other methods.
It would also be prudent not to do what Levi said just because Levi said it, (even though he is probably right).


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## PSE Archer (Oct 26, 2014)

N7709K said:


> none of the above. the options outside ONLY bt all consist of static shots with hand manipulation (even how Griv's method of yielding is posed). I setup the shot relaxed and stay relaxed THROUGHOUT the shot; pressure between the halves is building during the entire shot process. Due to the platform being relaxed, as that pressure between the halves builds the hand stretches and the release fires.
> 
> The only method I will speak to is Griv's- it requires the back to be engaged for the ENTIRE process to execute correctly; pressure builds between the halves and capitalized upon the relaxed platform to fire a release.


You beat me to it.


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## field14 (May 21, 2002)

markdenis said:


> Here is my method:
> 
> Pull back and anchor then aim, aim, then aim a little harder, then aim real hard...then relax, relax, relax, relax, then pull awhile, then pull some more, then pull really hard. After all that let down cause you arms feel like spaghetti and your oxygen is gone. Take a couple of minutes for everything to come back...then pull back and anchor then jerk the crap out of it so you don't have to go through all you went through the first time!


Mark, you mean..>GRIP IT AND RIP IT! Correct?
This thing has been discussed since the ledge releases came out...and the never ending story and argument has been going on since 1970 and like before that...because, whether you all know it or not, the release aids "ledges" and some rope styles, were being used for competitions in California in the early 1940's...but didn't gain significance until they turned up and were used in Vegas in 1970; then all heck broke loose...
"Correct" methods for using the hinge (misnomer, "back tension") releases are as varied as are archers...and I don't care who you talk to, they are going to argue this until the end of time.

But, it still comes down to using as few muscles as possible and engaging the 'correct' larger muscle groups in the back to maintain a "static" tension that steadies the site picture and then getting the rotation of the handle that miniscule amount so that the archer is surprised when the shot breaks and cannot induce any "English, Spanish, French, Italian, Portuguese, Russion or any other type of gyration into the shot...because by that time, the arrow is in the target already! If the sight won't steady down...then you are NOT engaging the correct muscle groups, you are NOT static, you are NOT aligned, and all the squeezing of the hand, the movement of the wrist and the pulling and tugging are NOT going to steady the site down...for that shot, so let it down!
Simple is as simple does...you know KISS!!!


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## field14 (May 21, 2002)

ride394 said:


> You're right, but at some point these pros had to make a decision which method worked for them and then practice it in the subconscious. So I think the question is which method have you practiced to the point that it just works or which method have you decided that you are going to practice to that point. If you're consciously picking one then your are far from the top of your game. I finally picked mine, not I have to practice it into submission!


BINGO! BOTH GRIV and Larry's method have to have the STATIC part of it in order to work...if you don't "increase" the energy applied to hold it, you cannot hold it. The more muscles you use...the worse it gets....and the quicker you run out of that energy or air or both, haha.
You wanna really learn quickly what REAL "transfer of back tension" is? It is so simple...even Larry Wise was surprised about this when he and I used it in a seminar. A different way of teaching the HOW about "transfer" instead of the "What" and then try to get them to do the WHAT without knowing HOW it feels!
Simple. Take a recurved bow of 25-30# @28" AMO. Tie a d-loop onto the string. Get up close to the bale. Make sure you have a bow sling. Use YOUR release...doesn't have to be a hinge. Draw back the bow to your full draw position.
YES! you are going to shake! Why? because you will, even on the first shot feel a huge change in tension...because you now will be forced to transfer the tension from your release hand and forearm...into the Rhomboids, Latissimus dorsi, and levator scapulae...OR you will NOT be able to maintain the full draw position.
As you execute the first couple of shakey shots...unless you punch off the release, you are going to also experience an explosion of which you have likely not seen the likes of since you went to a high letoff compound bow!
After about 5-10 shots, you will KNOW exactly what TRANSFER feels like. You will have learned which muscle(s) it takes to hold back a bow at full draw correctly, and you will have had the wits scared out of you from the explosion off that release.
You aint going to "fake" an explosive release off a recurved bow like many do with their compounds!
Larry and I were able to teach the HOW of the transfer in less than 15 minutes using this lesson plan and method.

I even demonstrated the use of a ledge-style and rope spike release and asked for any brave souls that wanted to try them...and a couple did do so...and much to their "surprise" they exploded off the ledge unbelievably well, and found out that the rope-spikes aren't so bad either!

field14 (Tom D.)


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## markdenis (Sep 7, 2010)

field14 said:


> Mark, you mean..>GRIP IT AND RIP IT! Correct?
> This thing has been discussed since the ledge releases came out...and the never ending story and argument has been going on since 1970 and like before that...because, whether you all know it or not, the release aids "ledges" and some rope styles, were being used for competitions in California in the early 1940's...but didn't gain significance until they turned up and were used in Vegas in 1970; then all heck broke loose...
> "Correct" methods for using the hinge (misnomer, "back tension") releases are as varied as are archers...and I don't care who you talk to, they are going to argue this until the end of time.
> 
> ...



On a more serious side, I shoot both the hinge and the thumb and shoot both the same. I really can't explain how my releases fire except to say I just kind of swell up and they go off. Kind of weird I know but that is how I do it. If I relax my hand or anything else to make it fire, I instantly hold low. If I pull, my shots stray left and right....so I just swell up. It works for me.


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## ride394 (Oct 16, 2006)

field14 said:


> BINGO! BOTH GRIV and Larry's method have to have the STATIC part of it in order to work...if you don't "increase" the energy applied to hold it, you cannot hold it. The more muscles you use...the worse it gets....and the quicker you run out of that energy or air or both, haha.
> You wanna really learn quickly what REAL "transfer of back tension" is? It is so simple...even Larry Wise was surprised about this when he and I used it in a seminar. A different way of teaching the HOW about "transfer" instead of the "What" and then try to get them to do the WHAT without knowing HOW it feels!
> Simple. Take a recurved bow of 25-30# @28" AMO. Tie a d-loop onto the string. Get up close to the bale. Make sure you have a bow sling. Use YOUR release...doesn't have to be a hinge. Draw back the bow to your full draw position.
> YES! you are going to shake! Why? because you will, even on the first shot feel a huge change in tension...because you now will be forced to transfer the tension from your release hand and forearm...into the Rhomboids, Latissimus dorsi, and levator scapulae...OR you will NOT be able to maintain the full draw position.
> ...


I just finally felt the "transfer" last Friday for the first time. I've shot a hinge for quite a while and have experimented with all the different methods of firing them but never really felt a "transfer". I always heard about the hold and transfer, but never really understood it. For me, I have to be really hard into the wall and then activate my back tension. The learning how to pull hard into the wall and then transfer made a world of difference in my float, execution and follow through.


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## Unk Bond (Aug 1, 2004)

Hello
Sorry none of the above.[ Later


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## Unk Bond (Aug 1, 2004)

field14 said:


> BINGO! BOTH GRIV and Larry's method have to have the STATIC part of it in order to work...if you don't "increase" the energy applied to hold it, you cannot hold it. The more muscles you use...the worse it gets....and the quicker you run out of that energy or air or both, haha.
> You wanna really learn quickly what REAL "transfer of back tension" is? It is so simple...even Larry Wise was surprised about this when he and I used it in a seminar. A different way of teaching the HOW about "transfer" instead of the "What" and then try to get them to do the WHAT without knowing HOW it feels!
> Simple. Take a recurved bow of 25-30# @28" AMO. Tie a d-loop onto the string. Get up close to the bale. Make sure you have a bow sling. Use YOUR release...doesn't have to be a hinge. Draw back the bow to your full draw position.
> YES! you are going to shake! Why? because you will, even on the first shot feel a huge change in tension...because you now will be forced to transfer the tension from your release hand and forearm...into the Rhomboids, Latissimus dorsi, and levator scapulae...OR you will NOT be able to maintain the full draw position.
> ...


======
Hello All
Tom a outstanding post. U knocked this one out of the ball park.
If some will listen. [That old school is hard to beat for training.[ Later


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## RCR_III (Mar 19, 2011)

Rugby said:


> That would be good RCR III I guess the main problem and it has been mentioned here a lot lately is many have invested considerable time in a shooting method because this method was pro ported to be the best one. Then Levi said it wasn't.
> 
> While all of the methods in your poll have been around for a while people have not been able to see past the conventional wisdom of our time and see the advantages of these other methods.
> It would also be prudent not to do what Levi said just because Levi said it, (even though he is probably right).


I just wrote a long in depth article about all I have found through my experimentation. It's on my website. I have the link to the main page in my signature and it will be the first post you see.


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## Mahly (Dec 18, 2002)

So I had to pick 1 method, but several would fit.
I release pressure on the index
I relax the hand and arm...but not to fire
The video where Griv explains the hand relaxing seems close as well...the hand is stretching....but most of that stretch is the index giving up more than the rest.
The back is employed very early on...there doesn't seem to be a transfer as it is already engaged. (Kind of the Alistair Whittingham draw technique) and it is maintained throughout the shot.


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## RCR_III (Mar 19, 2011)

Something I find as a revealing factor by how I set up the poll is that most everyone is writing in that they use a combination of methods. That's the point of why I structured the poll the way I did. I wanted people to look at the options and realize that firing a hinge is not a one size fits all arrangement. It's not a my method is superior. It's not a your method is bogus or mythical type deal. There's no unicorns and leprechauns here. There's just mechanical functioning through the combination of the body and device in hand. 

I know this probably won't end the bickering, name calling, insinuating, or hard headed comments and thinking. But, maybe it can open some eyes to what is really going on here. It's not voodoo. It's quite simple when you stand back and look at it all really.


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## xavier102772 (Sep 2, 2010)

N7709K said:


> none of the above. the options outside ONLY bt all consist of static shots with hand manipulation (even how Griv's method of yielding is posed). I setup the shot relaxed and stay relaxed THROUGHOUT the shot; pressure between the halves is building during the entire shot process. Due to the platform being relaxed, as that pressure between the halves builds the hand stretches and the release fires.
> 
> The only method I will speak to is Griv's- it requires the back to be engaged for the ENTIRE process to execute correctly; pressure builds between the halves and capitalized upon the relaxed platform to fire a release.


I'm with Jacob. This is essentially the same method I use. Building back tension/dynamic tension while relaxing the hand.


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

Unk Bond said:


> Hello
> Sorry none of the above.[ Later


About as you.... I sort of like what Tom has in one of his replies, haul back and shoot


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

Yielding top of hand, Griv? "To activate the shot your index finger softens on the release and allows the handle to pivot slightly (there is very little perceivable motion here, but you can feel it) and POOF! The shot is released." http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=453861

Larry; http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=489770


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

field14 said:


> ///////////////Make sure you have a bow sling///////you will have had the wits scared out of you from the explosion off that release.
> You aint going to "fake" an explosive release off a recurved bow like many do with their compounds!
> field14 (Tom D.)


Customer wanted me to shoot his bow. Big mistake, no bow sling. Whoops! You have to remember these parallel bows are dead in the hand. Yeah, right. Brand new bow. I didn't think about it. Drew back and shot. Bow went at least 5 feet out and skidded another 10 feet. Sure scared H out of me and the owner. Luckily there was no damage to the bow. How, I don't know. We went to get his arrow, it was in the X ring.


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## Lazarus (Sep 19, 2005)

What is my primary hinge method? None of the above. 

To draw an (accurate) analogy between the game of golf and archery;

In golf, if you only putted you would only need one club, the putter. If all of your putts were from three feet or less you could probably get by with a garden hoe, or a rake, or a ball bat. The same can hold true for close games in archery. At ten yards, most anything will do. 

In archery, if you only shoot from 20 yards (with a flat floor and a controlled environment) you can get by with only one method, (not really, but for the sake of the discussion lets assume you can.) Point being, in archery, distance, terrain, and external factors come into play, just like in golf. In golf, before you make the shot you must decide what club you are going to use. In archery, before you load your bow you better know how you're going to let it fire, and that varies with conditions (and I regress, it sometimes varies at 20 yards inside.) Saying you only use one firing process in archery is like saying a putter will work good off the T when a driver should be the proper club.

:cheers:


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## cbrunson (Oct 25, 2010)

RCR_III said:


> Something I find as a revealing factor by how I set up the poll is that most everyone is writing in that they use a combination of methods. That's the point of why I structured the poll the way I did. I wanted people to look at the options and realize that firing a hinge is not a one size fits all arrangement. It's not a my method is superior. It's not a your method is bogus or mythical type deal. There's no unicorns and leprechauns here. There's just mechanical functioning through the combination of the body and device in hand.
> 
> I know this probably won't end the bickering, name calling, insinuating, or hard headed comments and thinking. But, maybe it can open some eyes to what is really going on here. It's not voodoo. It's quite simple when you stand back and look at it all really.



Voodoo and over-complicating it, sells more books.


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

SonnyThomas said:


> Yielding top of hand, Griv? "To activate the shot your index finger softens on the release and allows the handle to pivot slightly (there is very little perceivable motion here, but you can feel it) and POOF! The shot is released." http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=453861
> 
> Larry; http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=489770


ttt


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## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

My dominant choice that gives me the strongest shooting:

1. I come to anchor and as I settle in on the spot I want to hit I increase my back tension into the wall to a set amount.

2. I then release my thumb peg and give that poundage to my index finger that I am keeping nice and solid.

3. As I float on the x I very smoothly Increase the pull into the wall with my ring and middle finger.

4. Arrow gone.


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## jgss2 (Dec 14, 2004)

I draw.......Anchor to the click........Aim...........and relax my hand to the point where I get the sensation I'm trying to let the release slide out of my hand.... Arrow gone!!


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## EPLC (May 21, 2002)

RCR_III said:


> Let's hear it. What is your PRIMARY method of shooting your hinge. No bickering. No arguing. No mine's better than yours. Just vote and let's see how the numbers stack up. Then we can see what method is most popular. Because, let's be honest. All methods on the list work. It just comes down to what you feel is best for yourself.


Actually, I'm closer to a 4 then a 3, can I change my vote? 

Regardless, it's currently 50 with some type of hand involvement to 8 being the straight BT folks. I think that says a lot.


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

Well, I questioned the Poll as for content. I posted links....and nothing...

Increasing Back Tension ONLY
Increasing pressure with outside fingers ONLY
Releasing pressure on index finger ONLY - George Ryals (Griv) all the way
Releasing pressure on index while increasing pressure on outside fingers
Yielding top of hand. (letting hand stretch aka GRIV method) - Not Griv and Yielding top of hand? Still, more to Larry Wise
Relaxing hand and arm while holding with back muscles - Still, more to Larry Wise

4:46 pm CT and Relaxing hand and arm in the lead by 1. Mounting to 26 of 56 if Yielding and Relaxing hand and arm is taken as Larry.


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## hunt123 (Jan 17, 2009)

field14 said:


> BINGO! BOTH GRIV and Larry's method have to have the STATIC part of it in order to work...if you don't "increase" the energy applied to hold it, you cannot hold it. The more muscles you use...the worse it gets....and the quicker you run out of that energy or air or both, haha.
> You wanna really learn quickly what REAL "transfer of back tension" is? It is so simple...even Larry Wise was surprised about this when he and I used it in a seminar. A different way of teaching the HOW about "transfer" instead of the "What" and then try to get them to do the WHAT without knowing HOW it feels!
> Simple. Take a recurved bow of 25-30# @28" AMO. Tie a d-loop onto the string. Get up close to the bale. Make sure you have a bow sling. Use YOUR release...doesn't have to be a hinge. Draw back the bow to your full draw position.
> YES! you are going to shake! Why? because you will, even on the first shot feel a huge change in tension...because you now will be forced to transfer the tension from your release hand and forearm...into the Rhomboids, Latissimus dorsi, and levator scapulae...OR you will NOT be able to maintain the full draw position.
> ...


Fine post!! I'm going to have to find a 25# recurve somewhere.


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## RCR_III (Mar 19, 2011)

I'm at work so it'll have to be in a couple hours when I can get to my home computer. I'll post up the video GRIV has about his yeilding the top of his hand to allow it to stretch at the base knuckles. It's a spring board affect. That's where I'm coming from with that. It's been years since I watched or read about Larry Wise's methods. I'll have to refresh on that. I only remember him teaching to use strictly back tension and a stagnant hand. Not saying I'm right or wrong, that's just how I was remembering it.


SonnyThomas said:


> Well, I questioned the Poll as for content.
> 
> Increasing Back Tension ONLY
> Increasing pressure with outside fingers ONLY
> ...


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## athomPT (Dec 14, 2008)

markdenis said:


> Here is my method:
> 
> Pull back and anchor then aim, aim, then aim a little harder, then aim real hard...then relax, relax, relax, relax, then pull awhile, then pull some more, then pull really hard. After all that let down cause you arms feel like spaghetti and your oxygen is gone. Take a couple of minutes for everything to come back...then pull back and anchor then jerk the crap out of it so you don't have to go through all you went through the first time!


This made me laugh pretty good!!!! I feel your pain!!!


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

RCR, nothing against you. I just have what's in front of me. No videos, no youtube things. On Dial Up......


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## redman (Feb 22, 2003)

Great post My Hinge Execution is the same as Padgett but I use click in release . #35 post


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## RCR_III (Mar 19, 2011)

Trust me, I don't doubt you for a moment haha I'm sure I am remembering it wrong. It's been probably three years since I last looked at the dvd I got with Larry teaching his methods. Plus at that time, I was looking at multiple different sources, so who knows what.


SonnyThomas said:


> RCR, nothing against you. I just have what's in front of me. No videos, no youtube things. On Dial Up......


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## RCR_III (Mar 19, 2011)

I'm actually suprised the last option is in the lead. I figured it would be the 4th option that carried the way personally.


SonnyThomas said:


> Well, I questioned the Poll as for content. I posted links....and nothing...
> 
> Increasing Back Tension ONLY
> Increasing pressure with outside fingers ONLY
> ...


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## hunt123 (Jan 17, 2009)

RCR_III said:


> I'll post up the video GRIV has about his yielding the top of his hand to allow it to stretch at the base knuckles. It's a spring board affect. That's where I'm coming from with that.


I worked with that method for a while after watching the video and decided I hated it. It felt very unstable, like I could potentially launch my release along with the arrow. In fact, there have been posts on here where guys have done exactly that with the relax method. I know the "relax" part is just fractionally but it didn't feel safe/secure enough. Apparently works for some though.


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## RCR_III (Mar 19, 2011)

I use a hybrid of the method. But the point in the method is to not relax the fingers actually. You are creating a spring situation with the base knuckles on your hand. The big knuckles. As you draw and anchor you'll have just a slight amount of tension built in them. Then you just let that tension out so you feel a stretch in the palm. The palm stretching and the fingers remaining stagnant as far as pressure goes is the feel you look for. 

I had the issues at first using it as you described too though. The main issue I had, and I wrote more in depth about it through my website, is that it allowed me to creep forward some. I had to incorporate a slight increase with the muscles in my back and pulling straight backwards a little to make up for that slack. 



hunt123 said:


> I worked with that method for a while after watching the video and decided I hated it. It felt very unstable, like I could potentially launch my release along with the arrow. In fact, there have been posts on here where guys have done exactly that with the relax method. I know the "relax" part is just fractionally but it didn't feel safe/secure enough. Apparently works for some though.


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## Lazarus (Sep 19, 2005)

hunt123 said:


> I worked with that method for a while after watching the video and decided I hated it. It felt very unstable, like I could potentially launch my release along with the arrow.


In my experience with the total relaxation method if you feel this way ^^^^ you are right on the verge of "getting it." I believe until you get comfortable with it you should have the sensation that the release was going to fly out of your hand before it goes off. Yes, it can be un-nerving, but it's a pretty darn good technique to know. Great for flat ground and controlled conditions. In the wind or rough ground, not so much. 

I personally think it's a riot to shoot with the release right on the edge of flying out of your hand. It's pure and exhilarating. But obviously I don't advocate crossing over that thin line. :teeth:


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## hunt123 (Jan 17, 2009)

Nah, not for me. I feel better with a version of Larry's method.


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## Fury90flier (Jun 27, 2012)

I'm still working on what "works" for me. I've done the

pull, pull, pull, shot gone--not so accurate
and
the pull, hold- point index...ok but requires too much thought
and
pull, hold, squeeze- relax the draw hand--better than the above but float not so good.
and
the winner....
pull, hold, squeeze....give up the bow side back first, draw side follows-- every time I do this I'm in the gold--probably half 10's and half those x....problem...hardest for me to consistently "let go". I try other stuff but keep coming back to this one...giving up the BT. Kind of "I'm done" and the shot goes.

so, as the poll goes...What is most accurate (if I do it all the time) isn't on the list


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## rjs (Apr 7, 2005)

markdenis said:


> On a more serious side, I shoot both the hinge and the thumb and shoot both the same. I really can't explain how my releases fire except to say I just kind of swell up and they go off. Kind of weird I know but that is how I do it. If I relax my hand or anything else to make it fire, I instantly hold low. If I pull, my shots stray left and right....so I just swell up. It works for me.


Very similar to how I fire my thumb and hinge releases..............(minus the swelling!)


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## Sasquech (Dec 15, 2014)

Elbow movement via rhomboids causing hinge to go off HBC


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

9:09 pm CT check.....
Increasing Back Tension ONLY ------------------------------ 10 -----* Larry 
Yielding Top of hand ----------------------------------------- 07 -----* Larry - I thought confusing - RCR still to look into
Relaxing hand and arm while holding with back muscles - 20 ----- * Larry - above/here - Larry states fingers tight (hang on to release) 
----------------------------------------------------Total ------ 37

Variations of George Ryals (Griv)
Increasing pressure with outside fingers ONLY ------------------------------- 09
Releasing pressure on index finger ONLY ------------------------------------- 04
Releasing pressure on index while increasing pressure on outside fingers - 21
-------------------------------------------------------------- total ------------- 34


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## ILOVE3D (Feb 4, 2009)

I've set up my hinge like Griv says with the click. As I come to full draw(the click goes off) and settle on the X I start a count, 1 thous 1, 1 thous 2, one thous 3, 4, 5, 6 (constantly concentrating on the X) and the shot almost always goes off by the time I reach 5. (5 seconds) If I try to think what I'm doing during the shot like either releasing pressure on my index finger or trying to pull more with middle and ring finger, it won't go off in time. If the spot drops below the gold into the red I need to start over again because the shot will go high for me as I am trying to push it up and think I might be heeling the bow doing so. It seems when I trust my float and just let it happen I do just fine. It's when I start over thinking it and not trusting it when I shoot a 9 or worse yet an 8. Dang I hate those.


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## kilerhamilton (Jul 19, 2010)

aim click pow!


I mean no click for me aim pin bounces gets still enough rip it off the string. 

sometimes pin floats small and slow and she just goes off.


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## field14 (May 21, 2002)

ILOVE3D said:


> I've set up my hinge like Griv says with the click. As I come to full draw(the click goes off) and settle on the X I start a count, 1 thous 1, 1 thous 2, one thous 3, 4, 5, 6 (constantly concentrating on the X) and the shot almost always goes off by the time I reach 5. (5 seconds) If I try to think what I'm doing during the shot like either releasing pressure on my index finger or trying to pull more with middle and ring finger, it won't go off in time. If the spot drops below the gold into the red I need to start over again because the shot will go high for me as I am trying to push it up and think I might be heeling the bow doing so. It seems when I trust my float and just let it happen I do just fine. It's when I start over thinking it and not trusting it when I shoot a 9 or worse yet an 8. Dang I hate those.


In a nutshell, what you are saying is akin to Terry Wunderle, Larry Wise, and so many others..."TRUST THE FORM, TRUST THE SHOT! Let it float and shoot the shot!" If you are piddling around with finger pressures, moving the hand or wrist, squeezing the release handle, letting the first finger "Creep loose"...you are NOT focused on anything but that...and you cannot be aiming and thinking about all this other snot all at once. It is impossible!
TRUST YOUR FORM! TRUST THE SHOT! If it doesn't feel right, or it doesn't "look right", then it is NOT right, so stop, let down, refocus and then start over!
In a practice session, NEVER try to work your way through a bad shot! You are there to practice CORRECT shot seuqences, not to shoot a certain number of arrows in a day. IF you are setting goals to shoot 100 arrows a day...you are barking up the wrong tree and likely shooting countless bad shots and practicing your mistakes.
If it ain't right in practice, then it will rarely come around and be right during scoring or tournaments!
You should also NOT score every single time you practice. Set ONE goal for each practice session; something you know you need to work on. IF it takes 20 shots to accomplish that goal, then great. If not, you may have to reset the goal.
field14 (Tom D.)


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## ILOVE3D (Feb 4, 2009)

field14 said:


> In a nutshell, what you are saying is akin to Terry Wunderle, Larry Wise, and so many others..."TRUST THE FORM, TRUST THE SHOT! Let it float and shoot the shot!" If you are piddling around with finger pressures, moving the hand or wrist, squeezing the release handle, letting the first finger "Creep loose"...you are NOT focused on anything but that...and you cannot be aiming and thinking about all this other snot all at once. It is impossible!
> TRUST YOUR FORM! TRUST THE SHOT! If it doesn't feel right, or it doesn't "look right", then it is NOT right, so stop, let down, refocus and then start over!
> In a practice session, NEVER try to work your way through a bad shot! You are there to practice CORRECT shot seuqences, not to shoot a certain number of arrows in a day. IF you are setting goals to shoot 100 arrows a day...you are barking up the wrong tree and likely shooting countless bad shots and practicing your mistakes.
> If it ain't right in practice, then it will rarely come around and be right during scoring or tournaments!
> ...


In a nutshell, YES, "TRUST THE FORM, TRUST THE SHOT". I assure you it's far more easier to say and type then to do for me. For me though, it's happening with far more regularity as time goes on.


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## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

Field14, there are different levels of trust. You described a very weak person that is scared of his shot to the point where he must just stand there and do nothing because if he does anything with his fingers or hand or anything else he is screwed. 

My level of trust is way different than yours, I have learned that I can trust my good form and float to the point where I can do anything I want with my fingers and my hand with any release that I pick up and I am good to go. I have learned to trust one of my methods more than the others because it just performs better on almost all shots taken. I have learned to trust that if I hang up I can just use my Yield method to generate a little extra rotation that will make that poor footing shot a perfect one.

I bought into your form of trust in the past and I don't like it when I have to be scared of myself and something that I might do in order to maintain that trust.


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## PSE Archer (Oct 26, 2014)

I prefer the Delmar Woodlawn method for any release.


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## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

I saw a guy at a 3d shoot just last week that made the punch by Delmar look pretty sweet.


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## lknchoppers (Jun 13, 2008)

I draw back my hinge primarily with my index finger. When I get to full draw I grip it just a little firmer with my middle finger and index finger (that takes some of the pressure off the index finger) and my 0.004" click engages, I start pulling with my elbow back and down. Shot usually fires between 4 and 8 seconds if I don't get "soft" with my fingers. I have shot like this for five years now and enjoy shooting like this, the arrow hits right where the pin is when the shot goes off. Currently working on tightening up my float without forcing anything.


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## petesake (Jan 31, 2015)

The poll is short handed and practically meaningless out side of developing segregation amongst shooters - 

Levi is primarily a 3D shooter keep this in mind when jumping on the wagon. 
Yes he places and wins out side of 3d events as well. However one very rarely wins 3d with a perfect score. The other side of that coin is spots where you pretty much need to shoot perfect to win at high levels in controlled environments.

If your thinking about how Levi , Reo or you neighbor releases the arrow you should most likely be spending more time on the bail and less time on the inter webs. 
Hi levels of human performance come thru NON cognitive thinking , which is developed by repetition and smart practice. Nothing more , there is no " God given talent "
To ask 99.9 % of elite athletes how they get the job done is redundant simply because they can not explain it unless they begin to over think it , over thinking is the anti non cognitive - 

If you are thinking about your hinge method chances are your still developing your shot and or working on refining your shot. Both cases answers spoil the outcome.

In all fairness the polls results should be based on solid 300 Vegas face shooters / and perhaps divided between 300 shooters that do it at home and 300 shooters who can take it on the road. 

- grip it and rip it ? -


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## ron w (Jan 5, 2013)

I don't necessarily believe that there are, or should be, "levels" of trust. you either trust the shot, because it is running as it should, or you don't trust it, because it is not running as it should, and you let down, refusing to let that shot run. that varying level of trust, is what makes one force the shot, when they should be refusing to allow it to run, for any reason. every time you vary the level of trust in your shot, you are condoning whatever "bad process" is being manifest, and muddying up the clarity of your execution.


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## Mahly (Dec 18, 2002)

petesake said:


> In all fairness the polls results should be based on solid 300 Vegas face shooters / and perhaps divided between 300 shooters that do it at home and 300 shooters who can take it on the road


I think you may be mistaking this for the Pro forum.

A poll asking what people shoot is just that. If you want to qualify your choice with your scores, that's fine, but in this forum, you don't need to be a 300 Vegas shooter on the road to participate.

Last year at Vegas Dee Wilde averaged only a 295. His opinion isn't valued?


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## petesake (Jan 31, 2015)

Mahly said:


> I think you may be mistaking this for the Pro forum.
> 
> A poll asking what people shoot is just that. If you want to qualify your choice with your scores, that's fine, but in this forum, you don't need to be a 300 Vegas shooter on the road to participate.
> 
> Last year at Vegas Dee Wilde averaged only a 295. His opinion isn't valued?


Dee has and still does ample shoot 300s - 
I'm not looking to make a choice personally , Ann Frankly it's more than a bit silly basing ones shot on a poll or a pro shooter. It is interesting seeing the numbers , and all the chatter that comes with this subject.
Like it or not archery is a score based, repative , low impact activity / sport. 
An outstanding score requires an outstanding repetive performance. 
So it would stand to reason a proficient 300 shooter advise on this matter would hold a bit more water ?
Their are too many uncontrollable variables in 3d any way too few shots made in a game to judge a consistent release.


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## Mahly (Dec 18, 2002)

Sure, someone who shoots well can hold more weight for you than someone who doesn't shoot as well. But scores are a result of many things.
Someone can have an absolutely flawless release technique, and yet not have perfect scores.

It's a score based game, but do we ignore someone like Dee because there are others who score better?
If someone wants a poll to see how many here prefer which technique, great.
I'm not going to make a decision on how I shoot based on the poll, but if someone else sees a lot of people using an alternate technique, and they themselves have been struggling, I can see how that person may try a new technique based on what is popular in the poll.

Also with the 3-D thing. Yes, even more goes into that than indoor spots. But if the same guys are winning all the time, and are also making shoot offs in big spot tournies, you have to give them weight the same way you give the 300 shooters weight.

No one wins the poll, it is simply data. You can look at the data and see what is working. The most important bit of data I have gotten from the pole, is that different techniques are useful to people here. If someone else is struggling, maybe that data helps them make a change for the better.

I just don't want anyone to feel they can post because they don't shoot Vegas 300s


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## petesake (Jan 31, 2015)

I just don't want anyone to feel they can post because they don't shoot Vegas 300s

Roger


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## Mahly (Dec 18, 2002)

petesake said:


> I just don't want anyone to feel they can post because they don't shoot Vegas 300s
> 
> Roger


Again, I think you have the wrong forum.


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## EPLC (May 21, 2002)

petesake said:


> The poll is short handed and practically meaningless out side of developing segregation amongst shooters -
> 
> Levi is primarily a 3D shooter keep this in mind when jumping on the wagon.
> Yes he places and wins out side of 3d events as well. However one very rarely wins 3d with a perfect score. The other side of that coin is spots where you pretty much need to shoot perfect to win at high levels in controlled environments.
> ...


Levi finished 9th at Lancaster and you make it sound like he isn't worthy of listening to because his main venue is 3D. Did you happen to see the long list of spot shooters he beat out? Surely you are joking?


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

EPLC said:


> Levi finished 9th at Lancaster and you make it sound like he isn't worthy of listening to because his main venue is 3D. Did you happen to see the long list of spot shooters he beat out? Surely you are joking?


Well put. Better than the reply I had that was richly embellished with expletives and colorful metaphors.

ASA ProAm 12 ring is 1.500" in diameter. Pros shoot that dinky 12 ring out to 50 yards and then compounded by unknown distance and the 12 ring the same color as the target....


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## bowfisher (Jan 21, 2003)

SonnyThomas said:


> Well put. Better than the reply I had that was richly embellished with expletives and colorful metaphors.
> 
> ASA ProAm 12 ring is 1.500" in diameter. Pros shoot that dinky 12 ring out to 50 yards and then compounded by unknown distance and the 12 ring the same color as the target....


Im going to try and cool down before I say much too.


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## cbmac (May 24, 2006)

field14 said:


> Mark, you mean..>GRIP IT AND RIP IT! Correct?
> This thing has been discussed since the ledge releases came out...and the never ending story and argument has been going on since 1970 and like before that...because, whether you all know it or not, the release aids "ledges" and some rope styles, were being used for competitions in California in the early 1940's...but didn't gain significance until they turned up and were used in Vegas in 1970; then all heck broke loose...
> "Correct" methods for using the hinge (misnomer, "back tension") releases are as varied as are archers...and I don't care who you talk to, they are going to argue this until the end of time.
> 
> ...





Unk Bond said:


> Hello
> Sorry none of the above.[ Later


If you make the transfer and then hold/aim/let-it-float and wait, wait, wait... You will have an inspiration, and the arrow will be gone.

It's in the breathing for me.


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## EPLC (May 21, 2002)

petesake said:


> The poll is short handed and practically meaningless out side of developing segregation amongst shooters -
> 
> Levi is primarily a 3D shooter keep this in mind when jumping on the wagon.
> Yes he places and wins out side of 3d events as well. However one very rarely wins 3d with a perfect score. The other side of that coin is spots where you pretty much need to shoot perfect to win at high levels in controlled environments.
> ...


If you can get by the first, second and last paragraphs there is a lot of truth in this post.


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## ron w (Jan 5, 2013)

I think there's a lot of truth in the entire post.
well said, petesake, entirely practical and very observant.


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## Lazarus (Sep 19, 2005)

petesake said:


> If your thinking about how Levi , Reo releases the arrow you should most likely be spending more time on the bale


I will agree that people need to spend more time on the bale. But really? You think people shouldn't study the best shooters in the world? 

Makes perfect sense.

After all, what do they know, they're just lucky, right? 

SMH


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## ron w (Jan 5, 2013)

really Laz,...... is that what you got out of that post ?.


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## northern rednek (Oct 24, 2008)

Lol, this has gotten so bitter that you guys can't even understand what the other guy means. I see so much misinterpretation that it kinda funny.


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## ron w (Jan 5, 2013)

I don't think it's necessarily gotten "bitter",.... but...., what I do see happening, .... is the guys that were originally accusing people of being "Narrow minded", "rigid" and "unteachable", are now ironically demonstrating that same attitude.


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## ron w (Jan 5, 2013)

Mahly should probably shut this thread down too, because it's gotten just as "Archery talk useless", as the others.


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

petesake said:


> The poll is short handed and practically meaningless out side of developing segregation amongst shooters -
> 
> The Poll asked "us" the manner of our execution. I suggested the Poll, but not as it is. I also questioned the Poll and it has not been addressed.
> 
> ...


.
.
.


SonnyThomas said:


> Well put. Better than the reply I had that was richly embellished with expletives and colorful metaphors.


^


bowfisher said:


> Im going to try and cool down before I say much too.


None of us are going to cool until people realize we are going to use what works for us regardless of some highly acclaimed coach or highly acclaimed archer of 40 years ago or the manner recently released by the most highly acclaimed 3D archer of today, Levi Morgan. Ask me if I care how you use a hinge and I'll tell I don't care.

I noted here or in another Thread. Some cry failure with one manner of using a hinge. They failed with this manner and blame it for others that fail. The berate the manner and support the "other means." I gave a list of why people fail with the one manner, well, fail with either of two manners. It was not challenged. Probably will be now and will give all the more reason to defend one's manner of use for executing the hinge.


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## Mahly (Dec 18, 2002)

Topic please....
Start a new thread if you feel this is a conversation worth having.
The topic is What is your primary method hinge execution.


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## petesake (Jan 31, 2015)

Lazarus said:


> I will agree that people need to spend more time on the bale. But really? You think people shouldn't study the best shooters in the world?
> 
> Makes perfect sense.
> 
> ...


 Luck has zero to do with shooting 300s / there is no strategy involved what so ever . 
Stragety and luck both come in to play in 3d ( lucky I got early lines and finished before the storm came , lucky the sun was shining on that target etc ... ) 
I have studied watched and talked too enough people to know what they are doing effects my shot zero !


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## ron w (Jan 5, 2013)

well, I won't go as far as to say, studying what the pros do, is not good for our archery, to a limited affect, but I will certainly say that it does us no good what so ever to put all of our eggs in one or more pros baskets (so to speak),....simply because we are not them and our shot is not their shot. that said, citing what some pro does or does not do or say or uses, or doesn't use, may ignite food for thought and a certain source for a limited amount of guidance, but certainly not example for full emanation, again, because they, as individuals , are not us, as individuals. if someone's shot is not fully complimentary with another person's shot, their shot method and their thoughts about the shot's methodology, are not completely complimentary with anyone else's and vice verse, because of this individuality.
bottom line, some pro saying "that's the way it is", holds about as much water as us saying "that's the way it is" simply by fact that what he says works for him, just as what we say, works for us.
given these parameters, I have come to the habit of not citing what the pros do or say, and instead, researched and developed my own knowledge and commentary. doing this, has exposed that there are certainly parallels in execution and thought, simply because the sport in question, is the same sport.
I believe this to be true in just about any sport, or for that matter any activity that more than two people do. in my younger days, I was very close to "national level" in speed skating and the same criteria existed.


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## petesake (Jan 31, 2015)

Lazarus said:


> I will agree that people need to spend more time on the bale. But really? You think people shouldn't study the best shooters in the world?
> 
> Makes perfect sense.
> 
> ...


 Luck has zero to do with shooting consistant 300s / there is no strategy involved what so ever . 
Stragety and luck both come in to play in 3d ( lucky I got early lines and finished before the storm came , lucky the sun was shining on that target etc ... ) so yes I hold a bigger candle to the top consistant " FITA - Vegas " style shooters when it comes release mechanisms - flat ground , controlled environment - known distance - all you have is your shot 
I have studied watched and talked too enough people to know what they are doing effects my shot zero !
If your expecting to learn how to shoot by jumping on a hinge and throttling your wrist day one more power to Ya ! 
If you study theses shooters you will find that they do make tweeks to thier form from time time to time , some more than others. , however generally speaking a pro will not be working on nor adjusting his shot on line / equipment perhaps- there are fairly clear tell tails when a strong shooter is working on tweaking his shot game day and prior to season- 
If you ask an 10 NBA players what are the exact mechanics of their free throw ..... Your gonna find a common ground with 10 variations of this base understanding - 
Ask 10 nascar drivers how to exit turn 4 in Daytona if you are 2 cars back - again your gonna get solid knowlage based answers with personal variations - 
Ask 10 pro archers how to execute a shot ...
Might as well ask 10 eight years olds how to make a peanut butter sanmiche 

You should read the quote from Levi at the bottom of your page , even what he says out loud about back tension in the interview - -/ -every one has learned and adjusted " proper back tension " - every top shooter I have ever herd says learn how to shoot a hinge " properly " and you can shoot any thing in the world. Heck Levi studied under LW at an early age , and something tells me later in life as well ( study their shots together ) it's a pretty amazing picture , ironically they are about the same height and build 

Shooting " true back tension " is one of the most beautiful rewarding ways to release an arrow - however as many have stated it is not always the most consistant - personally learning this method is the best method to developing ones own " style " 

As far as watching the top shooters shoot , you first need to have a solid understanding and complete trust of your own process before you can learn anything from them. You emulating Levi's or Reo's stance or release is plain silly - 
Any one that strives to become a consistant strong shooter in this day and time is best fed with a solid hands on knowlageable coach / mentor 

In short most shooters would be way better off vetting a coach than studying the best shooters in the world -


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## ron w (Jan 5, 2013)

as an example to the above post.
in the post, petesake alludes to "true back tension" as a firing engine, being potentially inconsistent. 
in my experiences, it is considerably more consistent than any other method of firing engine, I have ever tried.

the only consistent answer you will get, regarding this issue, is that the answers will be decidedly, inconsistent !


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## Mahly (Dec 18, 2002)

Over 20 consecutive posts off topic.
Again, if you want to continue this new topic, please start a new thread.
Closed.


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