# Deep Thoughts On Nationals by Brown Hornet



## Brown Hornet (Aug 8, 2002)

Ok so Nationals is now over.....and while there I got to talk to a lot of people....and watch a lot of people shoot a lot of arrows.  I have a lot of thoughts on things I noticed or info I gathered from talking to a lot of you....not only at Nationals but over the past couple of years at home or where ever. 

I also got to experience my FIRST Nationals and thought the NFAA did a fabulous job of putting on this event as I said in my Run Down thread  

but that isn't what this is about. :wink: There are a couple of issues I have with the shoot over all.....and before certain people start the "NFAA" doesn't have to read this thread to get it or hear about it because WE are the NFAA....if something needs to be changed WE can change it :wink:

Actually my first and only real gripe is that we had to shoot 4 wide which I find to be completely Short Busish  All week long the ONLY complaint I heard was why are we shooting 4 wide? When is the NFAA going to realize that this shoot is about accuracy not about who can get around the range the fastest. :noidea:

Yes I know that they didn't want us on the range all day long.....I have no problem shooting the walk ups, and fans 4 wide. But the other targets it makes no sense....not at Nationals....not anywhere IMO. 

Cards had to be in by 3:00 everyday....we started at 9:00 every day....and not ONCE did we come close to not being in with cards turned in by 3:00...even on Wed when we didn't shoot 4 wide on most targets.  

Everyday but Fri..animal round and Sun....Hinky and I rolled out....we got the scores added up....walked off the range and most days I ended in the middle of the course....turned in my cards...found a beer and walked around talking to people and getting scores for at least a half hour....then set around a little more and then posted the scores.

Here are the times I posted scores on AT...now this is when I hit submit not when I started the post :wink:

Wed 2:44 pm 
Thurs 2:47 pm
Fri 1:00 pm when I posted this Hinky and I were pulling into the place where we ate lunch. We were done around 11:00
Sat 2:16 pm I didn't eat lunch first this day 
Sun I didn't post scores....but I had already called VaVince and another friend....put my stuff in the car...walked the farthest distance possible on the entire parking area to turn my cards then realized that I left them in my quiver and had to go all the way back and get them. Stopped and spoke with someone and had a beer then turned the cards in. Found Hinky....he ate lunch...collected a crispy from DY. Said my goodbyes and we left. When we pulled out of the club it was 2:00....and Moparmatty and I stood on the course waiting and talking to others for about 20-30 mins before we left the course. 

There is no need to shoot 4 wide....it wears shooters down....and it's not the way 99% of the shooters shoot at home. On top of that there is NO PLACE in the rule book that states that we must shoot 4 wide. It doesn't take us 6 hours to shoot the Hill which is 100 times harder to walk then any other range I have ever shot...and we all go off on target #1...so why would it take us 6 hours to shoot an easy walking course that is a shotgun start? 

This needs to CHANGE


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## pragmatic_lee (Jan 19, 2008)

I wasn't there so I don't know what had to transpire between the archers, but wouldn't shooting 4 wide also mean that there had to be a discussion between the group as to who would be shooting the "virtual 1st line" - thus bottom targets and who would be shooting the "virtual 2nd line".

I could also see where shooting 4 across could easily confuse someone as in remembering which to shoot - top or bottom. I've always related that to which line I was shooting.


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## Brown Hornet (Aug 8, 2002)

My other gripe I also touched on in another thread also....this one is a less of an issue for me and for a lot of others but there needs to be something done IMO as not everyone shoots for the same reasons.

It makes ZERO sense. No we can't require people to bring handicap cards....or carry a handicap for that matter. Not everyone shoots enough rounds in a year. Those of us that shoot in Md, Va, and NC are VERY LUCKY....there is a field shoot or two near us every weekend. 

But there is no reason that after the 1st flight that it be a crap shoot as to which flight we will end up in. There either needs to be a range that is used....or use the AA, A, B, C range....560-540, 539-520, etc 

For example...this year in AMFS 

1st flight scores ranged from 1692-1675. That is great. 

2nd flight...1674-1666

3rd flight...1665-1656

4th flight...1655-1649

5th flight...1648-1637

6th flight...1636-1618

7th flight....1616-1582

Do you see how this makes no sense? 

There is no reason IMO that they can't set a range ahead of time for flights so that it makes sense....heck indoors is even worse.

1st flight 1700-1680
2nd flight 1679-1660
3rd flight 1659-1640
etc....

It's pretty simple to do :wink:


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## Brown Hornet (Aug 8, 2002)

pragmatic_lee said:


> I wasn't there so I don't know what had to transpire between the archers, but wouldn't shooting 4 wide also mean that there had to be a discussion between the group as to who would be shooting the "virtual 1st line" - thus bottom targets and who would be shooting the "virtual 2nd line".
> 
> I could also see where shooting 4 across could easily confuse someone as in remembering which to shoot - top or bottom. I've always related that to which line I was shooting.


Two in the middle should be the two shooting bottom....two on the outside shoot the top. The two on the right side of the lane shoot the right target the other two shoot the left. That is the easy part to figure out. :wink:


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## pragmatic_lee (Jan 19, 2008)

Brown Hornet said:


> Two in the middle should be the two shooting bottom....two on the outside shoot the top. The two on the right side of the lane shoot the right target the other two shoot the left. That is the easy part to figure out. :wink:


Just curious buddy, is this "arrangement" cut in stone (Constitution/By Laws) or is it just general practice?

BTW: I've never understood the *reasoning* behind the Flight system either. If I understand the *process* correctly, it would be possible for everyone in the first flight to have a really bad last round and their total for the 3/5 format be less than someone in a "lesser" flight that had a good round. Why even bother with "flights" - just take the total of the 3/5 scoring and rate accordingly.


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## south-paaw (Jul 3, 2006)

Brown Hornet said:


> My other gripe I also touched on in another thread also....this one is a less of an issue for me and for a lot of others but there needs to be something done IMO as not everyone shoots for the same reasons.
> 
> The flight system is down right Short Bus....not short bus"ish" either. It makes ZERO sense. No we can't require people to bring handicap cards....or carry a handicap for that matter. Not everyone shoots enough rounds in a year. Those of us that shoot in Md, Va, and NC are VERY LUCKY....there is a field shoot or two near us every weekend.
> 
> ...




```

```
the past cpl of days reading through the " Big Book ", there is a section about " flights and tournamenst".. stating that X-count _can _be used to establish flights-class-rankings.... based on previous days shooting.. and then the 3/5 day touny;'s the flights are redone based on the animal round after fidays scores ... because some havent shot a round before this... etc etc ... then.... theres an entire section dedicated to ..anyway..

it would be prudent to let everyone know before hand... just so there is no confusion.. i asked just that in one of my emails to the nfaa after the first or secod ( ? ) days postings..

pg 43-44 Const and Bylaws

""

F. Flighting for National and Sectional Tournaments:
The method of determining flights at National and Sectional tournaments shall be printed in the
contracts and on the registration forms.
1. The NFAA flight system will be used at National and Sectional tournaments.
1.1 Flights will be provided in each division and shooting style as follows: 1 to 15
shooters, one flight; 16 to 30 shooters, two flights; 31 to 45 shooters, three flights;
46 to 60 shooters, four flights; 61 or more shooters, five flights; and so forth.
1.2 An optional alternate flight system for tournaments with 200 shooters or less (see
Appendix 1).
2. For Outdoor Nationals archers may be arranged in flights by their total score and X count
at the end of the first round for three day tournaments, and at the end of the second
round for five day tournaments. When an optional 3/5 day Outdoor National is
held, archers may be arranged in flights based on their high 28 target Field Round
Score. For Outdoor Sectionals archers may be arranged in flights by their total
score and X count at the end of the first round.
3. For Indoor Nationals and Sectionals, archers shall be arranged in flights according to total
score and X count shot in the first round. When multiple sites are used for Sectional
tournaments, flighting may be done as if it were a mail in. Flighting in these instances will
be by final score and final X count.
NFAA
2009/2010
44
4. Equal division of the number of archers in each flight will be maintained, except that the
last flight will record a lesser number (for two flights) or an unequal number (for three or
more flights) as may be required. When two or more tie scores appear at the flight break,
the archers tied will be placed at the bottom of the upper flight, without disturbing the
remaining flights as originally established.
5. The flight system does not apply to the Professional Division. ""


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## Ron Meadows (Aug 17, 2005)

You guys had it made Hornet. Us BHFS shooters spent the whole week following the Bare bow and Bowhunter classes. They refused to shoot 4 wide for the most part and spent a considerable amount of time looking for arrows and adding up their scores at the target butts. We were getting off the range at least an hour after you FS guys. On Friday, when you guys finished at 11:00 or so, we were out on range until right at 1:00. We spent the week backed up at least 4 targets deep.

Don't know how you fix that problem but it definitely made for a long, long day of sitting around.....


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## rock monkey (Dec 28, 2002)

it's next to impossible to flight the 3/5 format. people know goin in ahead of time they have 2 mulligans. if they choose to shoot wed and thurs, they can bag em and get flighted lower. the only real round that really counts is the animal. but then the weekend shooters are stuck with what they shoot....and how they get flighted. yeah, i know it's their choice, but it doesnt give the whole division equal opportunity. i wasnt there and dont know, but did AMFS shoot the same courses for the same rounds on the different days?

the best way to solve the problem is to go to the FITA style rankings.....score only across the whole division. that wont happen. too many will lose interest because they cant finish first in their flight. lord knows people are still bent about changing the scoring in 77


right now, the nfaa is in a pickle. they need the numbers to improve, and everyone said the 3/5 thing was the fix. now, they have the issue of flighting. there's no real easy fix to it.


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## Kstigall (Feb 24, 2004)

The 2009 Indoor Nationals really shows the ugliness of flighting.
In AMFS the guy that "won" the 2nd Flight had a score that would have him tied him for fourth in the nation. It's possible that a shooter could be tied for the championship but NOT be in the shoot off. I know it's highly unlikely..... 

I'd rather be listed as tied for fourth overall than "1st in my flight".

If you want to make sure more than one kid "wins" then flights are the way to go. But we aren't talking about children............. or are we?


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## Brown Hornet (Aug 8, 2002)

Oh wait....I have more But this is just something that I noticed about #s from the shoot. I have done some adding already :wink:

Now we know that the #s this year weren't what they should have been simply because the ASA decided to hold the Classic the same week....which was just plane stupid. There were a lot of people that shoot both field and 3D that had to make a choice. It hurt both orgs bad. 

When you sign in at Nationals they give you a little gift bag...in that bag there is a little book with info, rules, records and the ATTENDANCE HISTORY. 

Just a quick look at it becomes pretty obvious to me that Nationals NEVER needs to be in Yankton again....and Darrington isn't that great of a location either. 

Even with the Classic being this weekend and the economy in the toilet there were 517 shooters this year. Heck the AMFS class more then doubled. There were 123 shooters compared to 46 last year 

Yes there have been good years at other locations....like the first year that they were held in Yankton which I guess the NFAA made a big to do about since they were moving into their "new home"...but the last year Darrington had more shooters then 517 was in 1991 with 602. 

There are some good #s at a few places but none compare on avg in the past 20 years to Watkins Glen. If the NFAA and ASA can get together on dates I think Mechanicsburg could put up some big numbers....now just to let those that don't know,....know...the NFAA has held Nationals virtually the same weekend since 1958. 

not that Mechanicsburg should or could get Nationals every year But 350 shooters is a joke IMO. ukey:

2009 Mechanicsburg, Pa 517 (look how many people came to shoot with Hornet :wink
2008 Yankton, SD 359
2007 Darrington, Wa 347
2006 Yankton, SD 440
2005 Yankton, SD 502
2004 Watkins Glen, NY 632
2003 Darrignton, Wa 366
2002 Watkins Glen, NY 439
2001 Blue Springs, Mo 370
2000 Darrington, Wa 402
1999 Watkins Glen, NY 418
1998 Detroit Lakes, MN 353
1997 Darrington, Wa 363
1996 Watkins Glenn, NY 506
1995 Wausau, WI 570
1994 Darrington, Wa 467
1993 Blue Springs, MO 472
1992 Wausau, WI 648
1991 Darrington, WA 602
1990 Blue Springs, MO 657
1989 Watkins Glen, NY 741
1988 Darrington, WA 644
1987 Blue Springs, MO 530
1986 Watkins Glen 612
1985 Darrington 493
1984 Aurora, IL 611
1983 Watkins Glen 761
1982 Darrington 468
1981 Aurora, IL 708
1980 Watkins Glen 948

Darrington has had one "good" years...1991 ....there were a few decent # years but look at the #s around them. Look at 80-86...There is no way I would have gone back to Darrington....they did it with a few other places.... It's obvious to me and other where the "Core" of field shooters are in this country...and those people will go where Nationals is.....there obviously aren't that many in Wa or SD. Stop going there for Nationals.

Just my .02


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## Brown Hornet (Aug 8, 2002)

Ron Meadows said:


> You guys had it made Hornet. Us BHFS shooters spent the whole week following the Bare bow and Bowhunter classes. They refused to shoot 4 wide for the most part and spent a considerable amount of time looking for arrows and adding up their scores at the target butts. We were getting off the range at least an hour after you FS guys. On Friday, when you guys finished at 11:00 or so, we were out on range until right at 1:00. We spent the week backed up at least 4 targets deep.
> 
> Don't know how you fix that problem but it definitely made for a long, long day of sitting around.....


Well you need to get more BHFS shooters out then...or move to FS. :chortle:

Tell them to right the score down and move on....they can add them up later. Hell the max is 20 points. What are they special and can't count to 20 :zip:


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## Brown Hornet (Aug 8, 2002)

rock monkey said:


> it's next to impossible to flight the 3/5 format. people know goin in ahead of time they have 2 mulligans. if they choose to shoot wed and thurs, they can bag em and get flighted lower. the only real round that really counts is the animal. but then the weekend shooters are stuck with what they shoot....and how they get flighted. yeah, i know it's their choice, but it doesnt give the whole division equal opportunity. i wasnt there and dont know, but did AMFS shoot the same courses for the same rounds on the different days?
> 
> the best way to solve the problem is to go to the FITA style rankings.....score only across the whole division. that wont happen. too many will lose interest because they cant finish first in their flight. lord knows people are still bent about changing the scoring in 77
> 
> ...



It's not impossible......the first day it's a random draw. The 2nd day you shoot with your peers (people that shot the same score). Fri is the same way....The people that didn't shoot the first two days get stuck at the end with BowGod and Sticky 

Sat they ranked us by animal round.....Sun they ranked us by totals from the animal and Sat field scores.....the flights don't come into play for anything until they go to hand out awards Sun evening :wink:

as for the scoring change....that was for the better....IMO and I was only 4 when that happened  I kept track of points I would have dropped if we were still on the old targets.

Wed....NONE
Thurs...ONE
Sat.... TWO from one arrow...sight issue
Sun.... ONE brain fart

Lets go back to the old target so we can all turn PRO


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## south-paaw (Jul 3, 2006)

what happened during the 1996 fiscal year...??.. the numbers dropped off 

since then.. ?????


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## Ron Meadows (Aug 17, 2005)

Funny you should mention that.....I'm ordering gear right now to do the switch.

I agree with the scoring. Hell you could take your shoes off and have it completely covered. The trouble was that there were multiple groups of these guys and they were backing up in front of the group directly in front of us......nothing *****in' at them could do so we got to sit.



Brown Hornet said:


> Well you need to get more BHFS shooters out then...or move to FS. :chortle:
> 
> Tell them to right the score down and move on....they can add them up later. Hell the max is 20 points. What are they special and can't count to 20 :zip:


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## Brown Hornet (Aug 8, 2002)

south-paaw said:


> what happened during the 1996 fiscal year...??.. the numbers dropped off
> 
> since then.. ?????


That's simple.....it's called 3D :wink:


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## BOWGOD (Aug 11, 2004)

I only read the initial post here so forgive me if any of this has been touched on.

But.......

First off I could not agree with you more on the shooting 4 wide. That was rediculous, and uncalled for. We paid alot of money to shoot, and have fun. Shooting 4 wide (at least for me) takes all the fun out of the game. It makes you feel rushed, it gives no time to recoop between targets. It is like shoot 4 get to the next target shoot 4, get to the next target, ect....ukey:
I know for me 75% of the fun to e had at a shoot is the BSin between targets so for me 4 wide all but ruins the day. 
My second gripe with 4 wide is spotting arrows. This is especially true when more than 1 person in each group is shooting the same color nocks (not like there are many choices in colors) after the first arrow it becomes very hard to tell where "you" are hitting when you have all those arrows. 2 wide allows someone to spot while others shoot so we know when, and what adjustments to make for the next shot.
Plainly put 4 wide SUCKS, and while it may save 30 minutes over all it definately cost us points for various reasons.
That being said on the days I shot with Bill we shot 2 wide for the most part and we were off the range each day by 2pm so there is just no justifiable reaon for them to have us shoot 4 wide:thumbs_do.

Now for the flight system. I'll take the other side of the fence on this one. I personally like it. Having the flights unknown helps to keep the sandbaggers away. If they went with a class/flight system like you posted here then the baggers would know exacly what they had to do to be able to pat themselves on the back at the end of the week. You know as well as I do that there are guys out there who will do anything just to say that they won (even if all they won was the bottom flightukey So if the flight system was predetermined you know you would have consistent 547 shooters throwing 8 points for the sure thing win in the 539-519 flight and consistent 530 shooters dropping 11 for the sure thing in the 519-500 flight. Not saying that there isn't any bagging going on now, but pre-determine the flights, and I gaurentee you see alot more of it. So would you rather finish mid pack because that was the flight you got slapped in, or finish mid pack because a bunch of higher level shooter with low self esteem sand bagged their way into your flight.
There isn't a whole lot of difference in the current flight system, and the predetermined system you propose except that the current system keeps everyone in the dark until the scores are in wich in turn takes valuable info away from sandbaggers. I'm all for it the way it is. Besides does it really matter where we finish in our flight? we're not in the first flight so basically we're just shooting for fun. Once we reach X-hunter level then the rest of the flight system doesn't even matter.


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## Brown Hornet (Aug 8, 2002)

BG this ain't 3D.... If a guy is a 540 shooter and wants to shoot 20 points lower then his avg to win a flight...that's his problem. It isn't going to help him in the long run and he is going to end up in the same place if he goes back to shooting his scores. Only someone that doesn't understand how the system works will do that. Those people that are shooting 520's the first day or two and then in the mid 40s on day 4 and 5 are basically choking at Nationals :wink: 

But with the animal round only counting once and then the best if the other rounds....a guy that shoots a 525 and a 530 the first two days and a 540 the other two is still going to end up in the same place....they are taking the BEST scores. 

The best thing to really do is to have all FS shooters together....I actually HATE flights...if you didn't win the Big Bowl your little pat on the back award for 8th flight doesn't mean squat anyway....the way that the flights are done you won by the luck of the draw anyway.


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## archer_nm (Mar 29, 2004)

Good Post BH, DO I SMELL "Agenda Items" As you stated the NFAA is all of ours, get the info in to your Director and see if this can be changed.. Also thank you for your daily updates. To the BHFS guy, this should have been brought up to the powers to be and they would have speeded up those old slow BB's and BH's, I can say this because I am one..


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## rock monkey (Dec 28, 2002)

i got a thread started for agenda item ideas. i guess one of the company ostriches thinks everything is peachy.


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## josh_X_wny (Oct 18, 2006)

I copied this from your other thread because I did not want to re type it. I agree the flights have no merit.

As for the flights and classes.... This is my first year in target archery and was my first national event. I guess people would say the flights are for people like me so that I can try to win something even though I am not as good as my competition.....but....

I think that whole system is the biggest bunch of BS in all of competitive sports, and I should be one who likes the flights because I am new to the sport. At some levels archery might be considered a leisure activity, which is fine, but a National Championship should be at the most competitive level possible. If it were up to me I would ditch any classification, flight, separation in each division. Does anyone really care if they win the 4th flight? It seems wrong to me that someone could shoot a better 3 day total and finish lower then someone with a lower total because of the order they shot their scores. I would rather know I finished 50th/120 then 8th in the 4th flight or whatever. Seems like a waste of time an energy to bother flighting the group.

Some may disagree but if not for the entry fee difference, I would even put the pro's and Joe's together. I am shooting the same equipment as Jesse B. why shouldn't I shoot against him?

When I go to vegas this year I will likely enter the flight division unless I think I can clean all 3 days. I should probably blow my first round to get in a low flight and then shoot lights out the next too days to try an win some $. The fact that this is how the system is setup really sucks. I could shoot an 898 and get nothing, or shoot 286,295,298 = 879 and get 450 bucks.

When I get involved in a sport I personally do not do it so that I can say I was the best of the middle of the road shooters. I want to be better then everyone there. Isn't that what competition is all about? I completely understand the people who shoot for fun and the enjoyment of shooting rather then the competition, and I may fall into this group in time, but once you start shooting just because you enjoy to shoot then I don't think you are going to worry about where you finish anyway.

This is probably bigger then just archery with the "everyone makes the team" mentality, and youth sports teams tied score, or too not keep score at all.


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## archer_nm (Mar 29, 2004)

Humm, I guess the villiage stone has woke up!!! Your name says it all, I have done more to further and make the organization grow then you have done to tear it down, but as long as you insist on acting the way you will continue to act, I will have job security.


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## BOWGOD (Aug 11, 2004)

Brown Hornet said:


> BG this ain't 3D.... If a guy is a 540 shooter and wants to shoot 20 points lower then his avg to win a flight...that's his problem. It isn't going to help him in the long run and he is going to end up in the same place if he goes back to shooting his scores. Only someone that doesn't understand how the system works will do that. Those people that are shooting 520's the first day or two and then in the mid 40s on day 4 and 5 are basically choking at Nationals :wink:
> 
> But with the animal round only counting once and then the best if the other rounds....a guy that shoots a 525 and a 530 the first two days and a 540 the other two is still going to end up in the same place....they are taking the BEST scores.
> 
> The best thing to really do is to have all FS shooters together....I actually HATE flights...if you didn't win the Big Bowl your little pat on the back award for 8th flight doesn't mean squat anyway....the way that the flights are done you won by the luck of the draw anyway.



I realize all that, but you know as well as I do that if the flights were predetermined based on such, and such score there would be guys dropping low enough scores on purpose just to win the next flight down rather than finish mid pack in the flight they should be shooting. Too many chest pounders, and back slappers in this sport. Just look at the IBO hunter class. That class means absoloutely nothing, no money, no prestige, ect.... But 9 times out of 10 it is won by some sandbagger who shoots 10 up in open class at every other shoot he attends through out the summer.

These are just the sad facts of life.
I'm with ya all the way if your not the one taking home the bowl it really doesn't matter, but not everyone thinks like we do. Too many guys out there would readilly sacrifice their own dignity just to go home and tell everyone they won their flight even if it is the 8th flight (the conveniently leave that part of the story out).
I know we're talking 2 different games here, but this is the best example I can think of.
I personally know a guy who shoots 3d very well. He averages 8-12 up on 30 targets in MBO at local shoots. But he used to go to IBO worlds when it was in snowshoe and shoot the trophy hunter class for the guarenteed win. Then come home, and tell everyone he won the world championships.


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## DHawk2 (Feb 18, 2007)

I think what Bowgod is touching on as far as sandbaggin goes is this...If I am a 540 shooter and want to make sure that I WIN a flight all I have to do is shoot a consistant score. I can shoot a 519 on both the field and hunter and whatever on the animal to get the highest possible score allowed in that flight. If a 1559 is the cut off for the 10th flight then that is what I am going to shoot.

I used to play a little golf and when we had a tournament at the club you would see it all the time. It would be a 2 man team, and one of them alone could score better than what their team score was. Of course 1st place in all flights paid out money so I guess that made a big difference too.


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## rock monkey (Dec 28, 2002)

there's a definite issue of the proper shooting positions. 2 different sections with 2 different requirements on the same topic.

this is one of the major points of contention...thank you south-paaw.

_ Const and By-Laws ... May 2009
article I pg 28 section D...

""
D. Shooting Positions:
1. Yardage shall be shown for all shooting position stakes.
2. It shall be permissible to use two or more shooting position stakes at any or all one-position targets, provided the stakes are equidistant from the target.
3. All shooting positions shall be plainly visible. When ground level markers are used in place of traditional stakes, a sign should be posted listing the various positions for each target. ""
--------------------------------------------------------------------
article IV pg 45 section H- 2.2

""
2.2 The archer must straddle an imaginary shooting line, which is marked by the distance stake and parallel to the target face, while shooting the required arrows.No archer may advance to the target until all arrows have been shot by the group, except for yardages that are 32 yards or less and when there are more than four archers in a group on 35 cm. targets or smaller. Archers may elect to shoot at a clean target after all previous shooters in the group have shot and had their arrows
scored. ""

_


there's another where there's no 2 answers to the same question. why is that? there's the rules and they are specifically written, but why are there so many different answers? because there are just as many interpretations and too much grey area.


how did the unwritten rules become policy and the written rules a matter of convenience? 

my issue is the ambiguity of the rules and the 'specifically vague' that leave more than too much left to question.


will i get involved? no. i have no tolerance for semantic policy making. i have no tolerance for office or organizational politics. what i will do is poke holes in the contradictions and people in the eye that are part of the problem. if you dont like being called out, do something that fixes the problem.


you keep sayin that....so can i say that you are part of the problem? if you dont like the guilt by association, then do something. to say there isnt a problem is ignoring it. say all you want about how much YOU have done.....there's a bow company that tells the world they win everything under the sun too. that to me is the trump card of last resort. it does nothing and impresses me even less. i'm smarter than the masses, and you underestimate the intelligence of the group as a whole with that statement.

if you'd like to FIX the problem, then listen to the discussions as a whole presented in that thread. i started that specific thread so that everyone with an idea for an agenda item can see that others have the same idea. they can communicate and get it to one specific agenda item presented or atleast sponsored by multiple officers with the SAME wording. the last list of agenda items i read, there were atleast 3 same but different proposals. how hard is it to get the parties to submit the SAME proposal to their respective officers? maybe thats just too difficult for some to grasp. maybe that is something the 'job security' depends on...the lack of cohesiveness between district and state, state and section & section and national. easier to throw the baby out with the bathwater.



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archer_nm said:


> Humm, I guess the villiage stone has woke up!!! Your name says it all, I have done more to further and make the organization grow then you have done to tear it down, but as long as you insist on acting the way you will continue to act, I will have job security.


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## BOWGOD (Aug 11, 2004)

DHawk2 said:


> I think what Bowgod is touching on as far as sandbaggin goes is this...If I am a 540 shooter and want to make sure that I WIN a flight all I have to do is shoot a consistant score. I can shoot a 519 on both the field and hunter and whatever on the animal to get the highest possible score allowed in that flight. If a 1559 is the cut off for the 10th flight then that is what I am going to shoot.
> 
> I used to play a little golf and when we had a tournament at the club you would see it all the time. It would be a 2 man team, and one of them alone could score better than what their team score was. Of course 1st place in all flights paid out money so I guess that made a big difference too.


That is exacly what I'm getting at. Even though there is no money doesn't eliminate the "little pee pee syndrome" You can bet your bottom dollar any flight below say the second flight would be won by one of those morons who think there is some kind of prestige in it, or just want to go home, and say "I'm a winner"

The thing I love about this game is you don't get all the BS that you get in 3d. But you change the flight system like that you are opening the door for all that BS.
Hell I know I heard of at least 1 magic pencil up there last week. Just goes to show that there are some guys who will do everything, except what is nessecary just to pat them self on the back.


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## Brown Hornet (Aug 8, 2002)

archer_nm said:


> Humm, I guess the villiage stone has woke up!!! Your name says it all, I have done more to further and make the organization grow then you have done to tear it down, but as long as you insist on acting the way you will continue to act, I will have job security.


Ya lost me there....well after reading your signature and going back and reading the other post in this thread I think I found the "Ark".

Look.... If you guys want to have a pissing match....go to PMs.....and actually that goes to ALL of you that always do this when are you going to realize that we are all in the same boat....we are all NFAA members and people that LOVE FIELD. 

I am being serious with this thread....I am sick of all the shots fired across the bow every time someone starts a thread about discussing anything that needs to be discussed.  Be adults and figure out a way to change what needs to be changed. 

Everyone wants to "grow" field....well good lord....I think if I can get this forum started and going strong and we can get all these new people shooting field.... 

I think you all can act like adults and have a normal discussion and figure out a way to fix what needs to be fixed instead of *****ing all the time and pointing fingers....


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## Kstigall (Feb 24, 2004)

archer_nm said:


> Humm, I guess the villiage stone has woke up!!! Your name says it all, I have done more to further and make the organization grow then you have done to tear it down, but as long as you insist on acting the way you will continue to act, I will have job security.



Some might say this is a typical arrogant NFAA "in the clique" comment......... 

Good Luck, B'Ho


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## Rattleman (Jul 6, 2004)

Wednesday 1:03pm
Thursday 1:25pm
Friday 11:36 am

Way to fast for this archer. Never had the time to enjoy the othr shootrs that I shot with.


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## dead eye dick (Sep 1, 2004)

the 4 across thing isnt that whats field archery is all about the fan ect why do people feel it has to be perfect for the to shot a arrow hell thats half the fun of doing it is the 4 in a row you can do it a a slower pace someone explane the reasoning behind not wanting to shoot 4 at a time please


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## BOWGOD (Aug 11, 2004)

dead eye dick said:


> the 4 across thing isnt that whats field archery is all about the fan ect why do people feel it has to be perfect for the to shot a arrow hell thats half the fun of doing it is the 4 in a row you can do it a a slower pace someone explane the reasoning behind not wanting to shoot 4 at a time please



I thought I explained it pretty well in my first post.


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## BOWGOD (Aug 11, 2004)

Rattleman said:


> Wednesday 1:03pm
> Thursday 1:25pm
> Friday 11:36 am
> 
> Way to fast for this archer. Never had the time to enjoy the othr shootrs that I shot with.


That was about right for the whole week.
We shot 2 across on 2 different days in my group, and we still got off the course at the same time as all the other courses (with in 10-15 minutes)


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## Rattleman (Jul 6, 2004)

dead eye dick said:


> the 4 across thing isnt that whats field archery is all about the fan ect why do people feel it has to be perfect for the to shot a arrow hell thats half the fun of doing it is the 4 in a row you can do it a a slower pace someone explane the reasoning behind not wanting to shoot 4 at a time please


To many wrong targets get shot. Often the 1st shooter shoots the bottom target when in fact they are shooting the top. By the way they ASKED us to shoot 4 across but when we didn't the men in RED hats came and pushed you on thru. I personally go to enjoy the event. I plan the entire day to be on the range. No pressure. I feel that as long as the cards are in by the designated time shooters should be left alone. Just MHO


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## BOWGOD (Aug 11, 2004)

dead eye dick said:


> the 4 across thing isnt that whats field archery is all about the fan ect why do people feel it has to be perfect for the to shot a arrow hell thats half the fun of doing it is the 4 in a row you can do it a a slower pace someone explane the reasoning behind not wanting to shoot 4 at a time please





BOWGOD said:


> First off I could not agree with you more on the shooting 4 wide. That was rediculous, and uncalled for. We paid alot of money to shoot, and have fun. Shooting 4 wide (at least for me) takes all the fun out of the game. It makes you feel rushed, it gives no time to recoop between targets. It is like shoot 4 get to the next target shoot 4, get to the next target, ect....ukey:
> I know for me 75% of the fun to e had at a shoot is the BSin between targets so for me 4 wide all but ruins the day.
> My second gripe with 4 wide is spotting arrows. This is especially true when more than 1 person in each group is shooting the same color nocks (not like there are many choices in colors) after the first arrow it becomes very hard to tell where "you" are hitting when you have all those arrows. 2 wide allows someone to spot while others shoot so we know when, and what adjustments to make for the next shot.
> Plainly put 4 wide SUCKS, and while it may save 30 minutes over all it definately cost us points for various reasons.
> ...


:thumbs_do


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## mdbowhunter (Oct 22, 2002)

Hornet,
Were you FS shooters told you *HAD* to shoot 4 wide? Just curious why you were stuck with that format and the BHFS shooters did not.

Like I said in the other thread...an NFAA established class system makes sense to me. I'm with ya on that subject. IMHO the Flight System is based too much on 'the luck of the draw'.

As far as location...it seems to me the East Coast might have the largest group of Field archers in the Nation. Jeez, look at the number of clubs in Maryland alone. :mg: I'm not suggesting a bias towards this side of the country, but they definately need to keep us in the mix.


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## JawsDad (Dec 28, 2005)

archer_nm said:


> Humm, I guess the villiage stone has woke up!!! Your name says it all, I have done more to further and make the organization grow then you have done to tear it down, but as long as you insist on acting the way you will continue to act, I will have job security.


Should all opinions be routed through you for approval before they are posted?

Sounds like maybe you need a hug or something.. :noidea: :hug: :becky:


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## dead eye dick (Sep 1, 2004)

ok would you still be *****ing about the format if you had won the field tournament rules are rules you know them going in to the shoot if you do not like em help change em or dont shoot the tournament but to shoot it then ***** because you probably didnt do good , dont blame the format learn to adapt


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## Stihlpro (Jul 19, 2006)

pragmatic_lee said:


> I wasn't there so I don't know what had to transpire between the archers, but wouldn't shooting 4 wide also mean that there had to be a discussion between the group as to who would be shooting the "virtual 1st line" - thus bottom targets and who would be shooting the "virtual 2nd line".
> 
> I could also see where shooting 4 across could easily confuse someone as in remembering which to shoot - top or bottom. I've always related that to which line I was shooting.


And THAT is what cost me some points 2 out of the 5 days.......Getting confused or forgetting wich target to shoot. Some of the other guys in my group wouldnt even fire an arrow until they saw where the other shooters were putting theirs.....:BangHead:


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## BOWGOD (Aug 11, 2004)

dead eye dick said:


> ok would you still be *****ing about the format if you had won the field tournament rules are rules you know them going in to the shoot if you do not like em help change em or dont shoot the tournament but to shoot it then ***** because you probably didnt do good , dont blame the format learn to adapt


Actually....... Ah heck I'll just let Hornet respond to this oneukey:


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## Rattleman (Jul 6, 2004)

dead eye dick said:


> ok would you still be *****ing about the format if you had won the field tournament rules are rules you know them going in to the shoot if you do not like em help change em or dont shoot the tournament but to shoot it then ***** because you probably didnt do good , dont blame the format learn to adapt


Actually I pretty much shot my average. And did not even expect to finish in the top 20 (Which I didn't) I don't go to win I go to have fun. I have a real job so this is my relaxation. In truth only a handful can expect to win all the rest are here to experience the event and the people around such event. I have shot the Nats 9 times in the last 20+ years. In my younger days I expected to win or at least finish on the top bale. This ws done on numerous occasions. Never a silver bowl. The only big tourney that I won was the Mids in 1999 in New Jersey while shooting AMFSL. Finished 2nd twice and 3rd and 4th once at the Nationals. But now I just go to participate so please no Flight medals for me.


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## archer_nm (Mar 29, 2004)

BH, my whole point is that I am only one member of the NFAA and unless all of us put forth the effort to make the changes (submission to the Directors so they can be put on the agenda) the changes won't happen, which is what you have stated. You are correct some have chosen to cast the 1st stone and I have should have let sleeping dogs lie, so any further post directed to the some's will be via PM by me. The only problem that I have is that every year I see posts wanting change but when I get to the meeting the agenda Items are not on the list. The NFAA belongs to the members and only the members can make the changes so PLEASE get the items to your state Directors.


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## Brown Hornet (Aug 8, 2002)

dead eye dick said:


> ok would you still be *****ing about the format if you had won the field tournament rules are rules you know them going in to the shoot if you do not like em help change em or dont shoot the tournament but to shoot it then ***** because you probably didnt do good , dont blame the format learn to adapt


What are you not getting..... Or is it that how I posted what I did that is confusing? :noidea:

Nobody or most don't shoot 4 wide on every target.... The pics I have from Yankton and Darrington weren't of anyone shooting 4 wide...its not in the rules that we must shoot 4 wide....

So no they aren't the rules.... and yes I knew them and the people that were upset about it knew the rules....when two of my roommates for the week and other friends of mine have more then 10 Silver Bowls from Outdoor Nationals and that is their only complaint I think they have valid complaint :zip:

Would I still complain if I won....YES... Just like X Hunter did when he called me yesterday....one of the first things he said was how the 4 wide almost got him. 

I won't mention names of others...but there are plenty of them. 

So nobody is blaming the format....4 wide on every target ISN'T the way field is shot....last week it came down to who the range official was...and was told the same thing by more then one person. 
This thread is about changing or fixing what I feel needs to discussed and changed....or did I not make that clear in my post....

Also if you had followed any of the threads I started you would also know that I did well.....

I got clues for sale if anyone needs any....:zip:


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## Brown Hornet (Aug 8, 2002)

archer_nm said:


> BH, my whole point is that I am only one member of the NFAA and unless all of us put forth the effort to make the changes (submission to the Directors so they can be put on the agenda) the changes won't happen, which is what you have stated. You are correct some have chosen to cast the 1st stone and I have should have let sleeping dogs lie, so any further post directed to the some's will be via PM by me. The only problem that I have is that every year I see posts wanting change but when I get to the meeting the agenda Items are not on the list. The NFAA belongs to the members and only the members can make the changes so PLEASE get the items to your state Directors.


We are on the same page...and I agree. 

My post was directed more to those that are waiting in the wings and always stir the pot. :wink:

We need to have open discussions IMO anyway to change/fix things for the better....my state rep is on these boards :thumb:

But I get tired of people pointing fingers and throwing stones about stupid stuff


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## Spotshooter2 (Oct 23, 2003)

> But I get tired of people pointing fingers and throwing stones about stupid stuff


 Perhaps sometimes you should be looking in the mirror then.


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## 6X60 (Jan 5, 2009)

I'm not sure why anyone really cares about having or not having flights.

I like the idea of a class system (several states have a class system already) it doesn't elminate sandbagging and it doesn't address the issue of how to get shooters to shoot the qualifying scores.

The current flight system is just a way to throw a few cheap medals around and keep more people interested and happy. I don't believe you're going to see much sandbagging when there is so little on the line. No money and only the overall winner gets a silver bowl. 

I've got one of those little medals from a few years ago laying around here somewhere. You want it? It isn't worth the postage that it would take to send it to you. We did have quite a little battle the last day on our target trying to win our flight. It was fun and made things interesting, but none of us would have sandbagged to get in that position.

I'm with you on the 4 shooters at once thing. That just doesn't seem like field archery to me and I can't imagine it saved all that much time. I wasn't there so I can't say but I did talk to a friend that was and it got him out of his usual rythym a couple of times. I've shot a couple of nationals, several states and countless club shoots...always 2 & 2. I think something would be lost shooting all 4 at once. No spotting for each other. Lots less time to joke and bs. I don't think gaining a few minutes is worth what was lost.

As for the attendance at PA or the suggestion of dropping Darrington. I think you're taking a somewhat short-sighted approach. The attendance was good but not so overwhelming tha goodt I would drop everything and move it to PA permanently. Afterall, it was the first year there. Attendance was bound to be good. Can it sustain that number year after year? Maybe, but I doubt it. Look at Yankton. After the first year many people said that it should be the permanent home and the next two nationals there attendance dropped significantly. Keep PA in the rotation for awhile, if they want to bid on it, and let's see what happens.

Watkins Glen in '04 had outstanding attendance but it was held in conjunction with the Worlds that year. Still, I would love to see them bid again.

Keep in mind that although the eastern seaboard has a pretty healthy group of field archers that the west does as well...probably even more. California is home to about 2,000 of the NFAA's 10-12K members. Pretty good membership in Washington and Oregon as well. What the west lacks is a great sight for nationals. Lots of field ranges but none big enough to host that kind of a tournament, except Darrington. If you eliminate Darrington from the rotation you run the risk of alienating tons of NFAA members many of whom are already a little disgruntled at losing the headquarters. The reason the attendance there is always low is it's remoteness and lack of supporting facilities....you have to drive a very, very long way to find a Hooter's! If not for that, I think it would be one of the better attended not one of the worst.

Just my $.02


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## C Doyle 88 (Sep 1, 2007)

Here is the problem----
If these are truely the National Championships-----
Someone that can't hit the target butt doesn't need to be there

In the old bow hunter class --no sight/no release/no string walking----the scores were 500s---they were not hunting arrows
NFAA has long ago decided to disrespect they national champion caliper shooters and make it the national novelity---bring everone to the circus----shoot instead of making the shooters qualify to even be there----

They already have a novelity shoot to make money---VEGAS----if they only allowed those who qualified shoot at the NFAA outdoor nationals----the entire sport would be stronger
Shooters would have to shoot min shoots at local levels----more shoots required
As on handicap cards A/B shooters need only apply others simply aren't ready or---not interested enough to get their score recorded
Either way they are only a distraction to a national championship level competition

As for the flights ----this is the height of lazy score keeping
There is only one class in each style of shooting----the archer must advance/or fall back to be able to shoot with their peers as you must to be a true record book champion--so each day of the five days should have new target assignments----mainly cuz that target '1' must consist of the best archers every day

Yes they must be 5 days---total score ---THERE ARE NO MULLIGANS at a real National championship event

I've never been a national champ----only sectional champ----but I would never have gone to a championship shoot just for the entertainment----and never held any one back/or disrupted a tournament of this caliper for curiosity's sake alone
NFAA will gain the respect that they want when they begin to respect the best shooters in the world by giving them the quality arena to test each other----and not expect them to be the best in a circus surrounding

The number of shooters means nothing at a nat event----there is only one champ in each class-----what matters is that they are the best---if you can get more local support by ranking the qualified shooters by the shoots they must have then you are more likely to have a more competitive base in each class from all areas------

Ranking works for FITA all over the world ------who's the best ?? check their RANKING 

Ranking score keeping----and respect for those who are the best-----sounds simple to me-----

This is just MY view but I doubt that I stand alone with it----but if I do that's OK----



Ron Meadows said:


> You guys had it made Hornet. Us BHFS shooters spent the whole week following the Bare bow and Bowhunter classes. They refused to shoot 4 wide for the most part and spent a considerable amount of time looking for arrows and adding up their scores at the target butts. We were getting off the range at least an hour after you FS guys. On Friday, when you guys finished at 11:00 or so, we were out on range until right at 1:00. We spent the week backed up at least 4 targets deep.
> 
> Don't know how you fix that problem but it definitely made for a long, long day of sitting around.....


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## south-paaw (Jul 3, 2006)

C Doyle 88 said:


> Here is the problem----
> If these are truely the National Championships-----
> Someone that can't hit the target butt doesn't need to be there
> 
> ...




```

```
very thought provoking... i like it..


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## Brown Hornet (Aug 8, 2002)

Spotshooter2 said:


> Perhaps sometimes you should be looking in the mirror then.


Perhaps you should man up and say whats on your mind.....

I say what's on my mind and don't bite my tongue....if you have an issue.....don't speak in tongues and hide behind a keyboard.....drop it on the table...I will have the same talks with someone to their face....and don't hint at things....can't say the same for others.....

If you have a problem with me.....or something I have said.....speak up....don't beat around the bush....if you don't agree....say so....

Other wise :zip:


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## araz2114 (Jan 13, 2003)

I quite enjoyed shooting 4 wide. But that is just me. I also don't like waiting to shoot... if I did I would have gone to the 3-D :teeth: This is the main reason I don't shoot 3-D any more... the group I was in on Sunday would have been horrible to shoot 2 up. There was one person that insisted that no talking take place... when shooting and when not shooting.... I can't imagine if that round had taken one minute longer :thumbs_do 

I like the shooting of field but I also want to do other stuff. Mingle with the other archers on the practice range... go for a nice dinner with friends and my wife... relax by the pool... 

Just my opinion and I do understand why some people would rather shoot 2 up.

Chris


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## Brown Hornet (Aug 8, 2002)

araz2114 said:


> I quite enjoyed shooting 4 wide. But that is just me. I also don't like waiting to shoot... if I did I would have gone to the 3-D :teeth: This is the main reason I don't shoot 3-D any more... the group I was in on Sunday would have been horrible to shoot 2 up. There was one person that insisted that no talking take place... when shooting and when not shooting.... I can't imagine if that round had taken one minute longer :thumbs_do
> 
> I like the shooting of field but I also want to do other stuff. Mingle with the other archers on the practice range... go for a nice dinner with friends and my wife... relax by the pool...
> 
> ...


Oh man....he couldn't shoot with us then. No talking. Yeah right. :chortle:


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## Unclegus (May 27, 2003)

We were asked to shoot four wide when possible. I didn't hear anyone say we couldn't take our time to shoot our four arrows like we wanted to. If you chose to fling four and run, that was your choice. Flighting is definitely not an exact science. Marihelen did it on total score. Kinda like playing the lottery... I'd prefer to give awards down the line from the top to maby tenth depending on the number in the division and style....Lastly, if you're going to be competitive, learn to shoot the dots in the critters....The handwriting is on the wall on that one.....


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## jarlicker (Jul 29, 2002)

I really did not like the four wide shooting myself. 
I had practiced for a slow round. This came totally unexpected. I was some what unprepared. The first two days the field official was unrelenting try to get our group moving. We were not slow. No group had to wait for us. It did not matter the official told us 4 times in the first eight targets on Wednesday to get going. The group got very aggitated, putting it kindly.
The second day we got pushed hard by the officials and the group behind us. Again We were not shooting slow. Finished both days before 12:45. Two fastest Rounds I have ever shot at a National. I have attended 15 National Tournaments.

I am sure everyone in my group dropped points they would not have if we were shooting 2x2..

Had trouble remembering who shoots top or bottom on the short stuff.

Saturday.Was shooting great. Hit a string of targets with the sun directly in my face. Really did not have any trouble aiming. The spotting was real difficult with all the arrows criss crossed in the dot. Could not determine arrow flight all the way to the dot because of glare. Three targets in a row I had tight groups with my green nocks appeared to be soild x's spots. I could not see shafts. Had 3 - 18's in a row because I did Not know the groups were on the edge of the dot. A spotter would have seen those arrows and I could have adjusted. I should have taken more time to spot those shots. I felt rushed.
The referee was walking with our group at the time. I was becoming a bit unnerved. Had a bad run of like 8 targets.I feel that was not neccessary.
I will be ready next time.


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## dead eye dick (Sep 1, 2004)

i guess it like playing baseball if the pitcher throws you a curve do you complain and tell him not to throw one ,no you learn how to hit it, if you want to be a champion you learn how to shoot under all types of conditions no matter what is going on at the shoot everyone want to be able to shoot under their comfort factor thats not what it is about , you take the person out of their comfort level and see how well they perform the ones that can handle change usually end up the champs the others the complainers cuz it didnt go their way


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## brtesite (May 24, 2002)

Brown Hornet said:


> Ok so Nationals is now over.....and while there I got to talk to a lot of people....and watch a lot of people shoot a lot of arrows.  I have a lot of thoughts on things I noticed or info I gathered from talking to a lot of you....not only at Nationals but over the past couple of years at home or where ever.
> 
> I also got to experience my FIRST Nationals and thought the NFAA did a fabulous job of putting on this event as I said in my Run Down thread
> 
> ...



hornet I'm suprised at you. 
First , it was a the chairs decision to shoot 4 abreast. It doesn't have to be in the rule book. As long as it doesn't violate a rule , its a go.
You haven't been shooting long enough to remember getting off the hill at 4pm. taking 9 hours to finish.
every one shoots 2 abreast because the clubs never built them that way. It was extra work Or didn't have the room.
Wait till you shoot Darington with walk ups single file.
No one said you had to hurry. just walk up set your sights shoot then walk to score them. You didn't have to run . Just take your time. 
Most people thought it was great to get off that early.

You said that you had to go back to get your cards then took your time about getting them turned in & then left the range about 2pm. Did you ever think about the people that run the shoot that they would have loved to get out of there earlyer than 6pm. 
I let the deadline at 3 because i can't predict what could happen.
lots off shooters got to do things in the area that they would not have been able to if they got in late.
Lastly , you need new blades


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## jarlicker (Jul 29, 2002)

I love shooting field archery. I shoot for the fun of it. I am not in it to win competetions. I do want to shoot the best I possibly can. I enjoy the groups I shot with. I want the shoot to be relaxing and enjoyable. I dont think that is asking a lot. Heck, I did not shoot with a single person this week that liked the pace.


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## Unclegus (May 27, 2003)

Yes, Mikie, and like you said Sunday, I can remember when we all used to use an outhouse, but that changed......If you don't have anyone backed up and the official is trying to hurry you that is total BS. I would have been thrown off the range if that happened to me. I don't pay my dues and shooting fees to be herded around like cattle..... There has to be a little common sense thrown in there too...


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## carlosii (Feb 25, 2007)

Brown Hornet said:


> Now we know that the #s this year weren't what they should have been simply because the ASA decided to hold the Classic the same week....which was just plane stupid. There were a lot of people that shoot both field and 3D that had to make a choice. It hurt both orgs bad.


It is my understanding that the ASA Classic numbers were actually up over last year. In fact, I think their numbers were up at every venue this year over last year.


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## Brown Hornet (Aug 8, 2002)

brtesite said:


> hornet I'm suprised at you.
> First , it was a the chairs decision to shoot 4 abreast. It doesn't have to be in the rule book. As long as it doesn't violate a rule , its a go.
> You haven't been shooting long enough to remember getting off the hill at 4pm. taking 9 hours to finish.
> every one shoots 2 abreast because the clubs never built them that way. It was extra work Or didn't have the room.
> ...



Mike I wasn't really *****in' for my purpose....but I was ASKED by SEVERAL people to bring it up. I was fine and you know me....I am gonna do what's best for my shooting. :wink:

But there were several officials that were rushing groups around the courses on some parts of ranges....so when you get a couple of groups getting pushed or everyone else gets pushed. 

Heck on Sat we got that feeling and I refused to go faster....we let a group shoot through :wink:

The forgetting of the cards and taking my time was on Sun.....the course wasn't full because it was Sun and the rain....and a lot of groups only had 3 shooters and I know at least one target was vacant when we started. I finished about the same time we did every day.

I think the issue came with the way it was presented....the morning announcements weren't very clear over the intercom....and I think a few range officials mislead or didn't really understand what was being asked. I know my groups were told different things.

But I have no problem with the cards being in by 3...and I thought I made it pretty obvious that I was thankful for everything that was done to make the shoot what it was  BUT like I said... a lot of people got or at least FELT rushed around the ranges. 

I don't know what the right way to do things was.....but I think even with no mention of shooting 4 wide....we could have had cards in by 3 with officials bumping groups when needed....that's why I started this thread:wink:


and I really need to change my blade now....wait a minute....I still have a bag full that I keep in my quiver


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## Brown Hornet (Aug 8, 2002)

carlosii said:


> It is my understanding that the ASA Classic numbers were actually up over last year. In fact, I think their numbers were up at every venue this year over last year.


There were still people at both that would normally be at the other :wink:

The shooters at Nationals this year were up also.....it's still time for all these orgs to stop butting heads.


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## carlosii (Feb 25, 2007)

C Doyle 88 said:


> Here is the problem----
> If these are truely the National Championships-----
> Someone that can't hit the target butt doesn't need to be there----


I disagree with you.
Part of what has hurt field archery is the perception that it is viewed as elitist and "clubby". In our area it is viewed as very much an "in-sider's" organization ruled by organizational politics. 
If you want to further isolate NFAA from the other national organizations (IBO, ASA, USBA) I'd say your proposal would be a step in that direction.
NFAA used to be about fellowship and archery, at least back in the '50's. I would like to see it renew that.


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## Rattleman (Jul 6, 2004)

dead eye dick said:


> i guess it like playing baseball if the pitcher throws you a curve do you complain and tell him not to throw one ,no you learn how to hit it, if you want to be a champion you learn how to shoot under all types of conditions no matter what is going on at the shoot everyone want to be able to shoot under their comfort factor thats not what it is about , you take the person out of their comfort level and see how well they perform the ones that can handle change usually end up the champs the others the complainers cuz it didnt go their way


And all this coming from someone that wasn't even there. HMMM


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## dncx (Jul 11, 2005)

I don't care one way or the other about flights!I came to shoot the best that i could,tho,i didn't have much archery in me!I shoot BHFS and was rarely backed up.I don't care to be told to pick up the pace when there was nobody in front of us and 5 PRO WOMEN FS behind us------can't really see them catching us!!!! Still we were told to shoot 4 wide and pick up the pace.It's nice to have somebody spotting. By the way ----what is the ruleing for having spouses on the course?I was always told not at a national.I saw at least 4 different groups.It seemed to slow up play bigtime !jmho


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## dncx (Jul 11, 2005)

Deadeye have you ever been to a national shoot? Do you shoot field archery? Do you even have a clue as to whats even going on out there?


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## Unclegus (May 27, 2003)

I definitely think the pace sucked. I CAN do it, but I'd rather be punched dead in the mouth as shoot four across, especially on the short targets, but when in Rome..... Of course it doesn't matter what we think. We're just the shooters. What do we know???? I do know if this fast food drive thru mentality gets to be the rule rather than the exception, I'll stay home and work on my old cars...Like I've said before, if you took vacation to come and shoot, and you're in that big of a hurry to get finished shooting, then maby you should be spending your time doing something else.


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## Moparmatty (Jun 23, 2003)

araz2114 said:


> I quite enjoyed shooting 4 wide. But that is just me. I also don't like waiting to shoot... if I did I would have gone to the 3-D :teeth: This is the main reason I don't shoot 3-D any more... the group I was in on Sunday would have been horrible to shoot 2 up. There was one person that insisted that no talking take place... when shooting and when not shooting.... I can't imagine if that round had taken one minute longer :thumbs_do
> 
> I like the shooting of field but I also want to do other stuff. Mingle with the other archers on the practice range... go for a nice dinner with friends and my wife... relax by the pool...
> 
> ...


That's enough out of you!!!!! :zip:

:chortle:


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## Rattleman (Jul 6, 2004)

I only shot the 1st 3 days. On the 2nd day they told us that food and drink was available on the range. My thoughts were that they should have put out gatorade cups on the table like they do at a Marathon and when the archers ran by they could grab a cup and drink on the run. But seriously. Too fast for me. I can see hurrying up the pace if one group is holding up others. Just let them shoot thru, but we were pushed even when no one was even close by. But other then that I think that the NFAA and Mechanicsburg Archers did a fantastic job. WELL DONE


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## Moparmatty (Jun 23, 2003)

Brown Hornet said:


> Oh man....he couldn't shoot with us then. No talking. Yeah right. :chortle:


That guy would have called home crying to his Mommy if he was shooting with us! :chortle:


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## BOWGOD (Aug 11, 2004)

It's clear where the big issue is here.
We pay/paid alot of money to shoot nationals, and have a good time. Being forced to shoot 4 across not only took from many scores, but it also took from the experience and good times.
I can honestly say that I have only ever shot 2 field tournies where I did not have a good time. Both of those tournies were held in Mechanicsburg, and both tournies I was forced to shoot 4 wide.

Shooting 2 across would not have slowed the pace but a few minutes each day as long as all groups were shooting that way. Capemaybowman, and myself got to shoot together 3 days. 2 of the 3 days we shot 2 across on every target and we still were off the course before 1:30 while the females who had shot 4 across all day didn't get off until close to 2.

For the price we pay to shoot these shoots I do not think it is too much to ask to let us shoot 2 across the way we are acustom to doing, and let us have the fun we paid to have.


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## dead eye dick (Sep 1, 2004)

Deal with it guys, stop *****ing if the shoot ran 8hrs long you would be *****ing its to long no matter what the nfaa does no one will be happy i guess thats the way it is!


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## CHPro (May 21, 2002)

I'm with Araz, I loved shooting 4 across, where the conditions allowed it (there were a few targets on each range I shot where 2x2 was called for given the footing and course layout). Actually shot a little slower than I do when I'm practicing at home. Several shoots around my area either have 2 per target at most of the local shoots, or 3 (occasionally 4) for state/sectional level shoots on courses wide enough to shoot all 3 abreast. So wasn't really a change for me. All groups I shot with for the week took our time moving from target to target, short breather before pulling up on the first arrow and usually one or a couple of us spotted each other's arrows between our own shots. I didn't feel myself being rushed around the course to shoot and immensely enjoyed getting off the ranges around 1:15-1:30 each day and doing other things around the area. Heck, if a fat, aging, old out-of-shape guy like myself with bad knees and back could walk the course and not feel rushed or winded while shooting I'd hate to see what pace you guys who felt rushed are accustomed to when you're shooting 2x2....I'd probably fall asleep between targets, lol !

I still felt like I had time to joke around with the guys while walking too and from the targets (and waiting at the walk-ups which still seemed to get backed up even shooting 4 across). Groups I shot with were very open in discussing who should be shooting which target on each multi-target butt, maybe even helped keep someone from stepping up on first line and shooting arrows into the top target by accident had no discussions been conducted. Heck, I've seen just as many shoot the wrong targets when shooting 2x2 as I heard about all week at PA while shooting 4 across -- not sure that's as big an issue as is being made out to be.

Can see a gripe though if the range officials were pushing groups through when the groups weren't holding anyone up and were shooting 4 across as requested at the morning meetings, but just shooting at a slower pace.

One suggestion I do have for the Mechanicsburg club, I didn't see much in the way of Youth yardage markers (blue) nor Youth yardages listed on the signage for any of the ranges, including the animals. Fortunately at least a couple I know shooting those distances had some clue what they were supposed to be shooting. Were we just overlooking something?

Looking forward to shooting Natls in Mechanicsburg in '12.

>>--------->


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## hunter111 (Mar 5, 2003)

CHPro said:


> I'm with Araz, I loved shooting 4 across, where the conditions allowed it (there were a few targets on each range I shot where 2x2 was called for given the footing and course layout). Actually shot a little slower than I do when I'm practicing at home. Several shoots around my area either have 2 per target at most of the local shoots, or 3 (occasionally 4) for state/sectional level shoots on courses wide enough to shoot all 3 abreast. So wasn't really a change for me. All groups I shot with for the week took our time moving from target to target, short breather before pulling up on the first arrow and usually one or a couple of us spotted each other's arrows between our own shots. I didn't feel myself being rushed around the course to shoot and immensely enjoyed getting off the ranges around 1:15-1:30 each day and doing other things around the area. Heck, if a fat, aging, old out-of-shape guy like myself with bad knees and back could walk the course and not feel rushed or winded while shooting I'd hate to see what pace you guys who felt rushed are accustomed to when you're shooting 2x2....I'd probably fall asleep between targets, lol !
> 
> I still felt like I had time to joke around with the guys while walking too and from the targets (and waiting at the walk-ups which still seemed to get backed up even shooting 4 across). Groups I shot with were very open in discussing who should be shooting which target on each multi-target butt, maybe even helped keep someone from stepping up on first line and shooting arrows into the top target by accident had no discussions been conducted. Heck, I've seen just as many shoot the wrong targets when shooting 2x2 as I heard about all week at PA while shooting 4 across -- not sure that's as big an issue as is being made out to be.
> 
> ...


I couldn't have put it any better...
Living in the SE PA area I have always enjoyed shooting at Mechanicsburg with the wide open lanes. We did the same as CHPro, shot 4 across 95% of the time and spotted for each other as we went along. No rushing, just a relaxed pace with each of us taking as much time as we needed...
Thanks NFAA and Mechanicsburg... I'll be back!!


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## OT3D (Jul 15, 2008)

Brown Hornet said:


> The flight system is down right Short Bus....


Please refrain from using the term, "Short Bus" in such a demeaning manner. It is very hurtful to those who care about and appreciate the value of people with special needs.


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## josh_X_wny (Oct 18, 2006)

CHPro said:


> I'm with Araz, I loved shooting 4 across, where the conditions allowed it (there were a few targets on each range I shot where 2x2 was called for given the footing and course layout). Actually shot a little slower than I do when I'm practicing at home. Several shoots around my area either have 2 per target at most of the local shoots, or 3 (occasionally 4) for state/sectional level shoots on courses wide enough to shoot all 3 abreast. So wasn't really a change for me. All groups I shot with for the week took our time moving from target to target, short breather before pulling up on the first arrow and usually one or a couple of us spotted each other's arrows between our own shots. I didn't feel myself being rushed around the course to shoot and immensely enjoyed getting off the ranges around 1:15-1:30 each day and doing other things around the area. Heck, if a fat, aging, old out-of-shape guy like myself with bad knees and back could walk the course and not feel rushed or winded while shooting I'd hate to see what pace you guys who felt rushed are accustomed to when you're shooting 2x2....I'd probably fall asleep between targets, lol !
> 
> I still felt like I had time to joke around with the guys while walking too and from the targets (and waiting at the walk-ups which still seemed to get backed up even shooting 4 across). Groups I shot with were very open in discussing who should be shooting which target on each multi-target butt, maybe even helped keep someone from stepping up on first line and shooting arrows into the top target by accident had no discussions been conducted. Heck, I've seen just as many shoot the wrong targets when shooting 2x2 as I heard about all week at PA while shooting 4 across -- not sure that's as big an issue as is being made out to be.
> 
> ...


I also agree, I liked the pace. It was getting pretty hot and humid out there and I was glad we got done when we did. I am not a big fan of standing around so the faster pace suited me.


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## Unclegus (May 27, 2003)

OK, Hornet, now you've done it. Next you'll be wearing leather shoes to your local PETA meetings......


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## mag41vance (Mar 13, 2008)

One thing I noticed about the attendance #'s is that during our Country's recession years, the NFAA National Shoot attendance was up. 1980-81, 89-91, and this past year.

What does that mean,,,,,,,,,,,,,all the real contributors to the economy were out shooting field archery instead of working.


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## Kstigall (Feb 24, 2004)

mag41vance said:


> One thing I noticed about the attendance #'s is that during our Country's recession years, the NFAA National Shoot attendance was up. 1980-81, 89-91, and this past year.
> 
> What does that mean,,,,,,,,,,,,,all the real contributors to the economy were out shooting field archery instead of working.


 Enough out of you! This is a sack kicking contest............ 


Seriously folks if you go back and read this thread from the beginning you'll realize a few things.
1) The Brown Stinger started this thread as a "discussion" thread. Not as a whining about the NFAA thread. Think of it as an exit interview, constructive criticism or a "what do ya'll think" kind of thread. The man is interested in what the membership has to say right now while it's fresh. He doesn't need anyone's approval to do this and the thread could or maybe should have been started by an NFAA official.

2) _Some_ of the old school NFAA folks get pissy if anything is discussed in a public forum ESPECIALLY if it's on AT. Guys you must get used to the fact that the internet is here to stay and people from all over the country WILL talk promptly. We don't have to and shouldn't go through you guys before talking about any issue........Whether it's "Taking 5", the vote that wasn't or 4 wide shooting. Currently AT is hands down "the" place to sell the NFAA.

3) A little over 500 archers at the National Championship by today's standard was a good number. Field archery is a small potato sport even by archery standards. Let us not do anything to hinder broad participation by even the most rudimentary archer. Indoor spots is the biggest game the NFAA has.......... Sorry fieldies but that's the way it is.

4) It sure sounds like enough decent folks shooting at Nationals were irritated by one or more range officials "pushing" them that it definitely rates as a "problem". The host and the NFAA should note this and see if they can't fix such a tiny issue.............it's not a big deal.

5) It appears the consensus is that it was a great shoot. The overall rating is multiple :thumbs_up . So the NFAA and the host club did pretty damn good.

6) Shooting 4 wide when it's not necessary should not be forced. But if a group is shooting faster be considerate and let them shoot through or speed up. 

Lastly, there are folks that take things so personally that it's virtually a waste of time to try to have a discussion with them. That's people being people whether it's work, in the neighborhood, a hobby or family.

*Disclaimer:* I've never shot a field round! I do not claim to be a "field" archer. I have posted facts, observations and opinions with maybe a smattering of hopefully somewhat logical BS. It's up to each individual to decide where they want my comments to fall......... Please note though that no matter how boldly you :yell: or bellow your superior standing I will not :yield: but I may :vom:.
*
*** I also reserve the right to change mind about anything or everything mentioned in this post due to enlightenment, because it was stupid to start with or for any other reason I may think of. I make no claims that this post is void of inaccuracies.


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## GATOR-EYE (Jun 30, 2006)

C Doyle 88 said:


> Here is the problem----
> If these are truely the National Championships-----
> Someone that can't hit the target butt doesn't need to be there
> 
> ...




I like this idea, most of us shoot enough rounds at a local level to easily get a signed ranking card. This would work well for creating flights for both outdoor and indoor rounds. Especially in places like Vegas where money is involved and sandbagging for flight placement is common. This would place you in groups of equal shooters right from the start.

The open door for anyone who wants to shoot should stay the same just to keep more people interested but if your not ranked you shoot at the back of the pack.


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## mag41vance (Mar 13, 2008)

Kstigall said:


> *Disclaimer:* I've never shot a field round! I do not claim to be a "field" archer.


 Well now, Lets talk about that. I personally invite you (and your Dad ) to shoot in my backyard home range in Madison County VA located on the senic Rapidan river. 20 miles North of Charlottesville. I have all the necessary targets and distances marked out. Score cards are available with the distances to be shot posted on the card. If you start getting the shakes about shooting something other than the foam animals. I have one of those on the range as well, so you can take out your frustrations on that after you shoot that 53yd walk up or perhaps the 32y fan.:set1_rolf2:

How bout it Kent?


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## GOT LUCKY (Apr 30, 2005)

Kstigall said:


> Enough out of you! This is a sack kicking contest............
> 
> 
> Seriously folks if you go back and read this thread from the beginning you'll realize a few things.
> ...


*Very well stated....Thank You......

I have questioned why in the member's efforts to grow and improve the NFAA after being told over and over again "it's your ORG." .....we seem to meet such ""pissamissin'"" (yeah...I spelled it that way for a reason :wink when we attempt to offer solutions to identified issues.

"CHANGE IS GOOD"......with it WE GROW...but for some who have served under the Old Guard for so long....very hard to accept. The internet and Archery Forums like AT have provided an avenue in the last few years for "free speech"...one voice(post) one vote... the sharing of ideas from around the world and uniting for the betterment of all...
The days of "tell them what they want to hear, but we will do it our way" are numbered as we continue in a concertive fashion to bring light to ways to improve.....

It's Constructive CRITICISM if when addressing an issue there is a discussion and offered suggestions for improvement.....but some still see it as only CRITICISM of their past efforts....

The drape has been pulled....."The Wizard of OZ"...is exposed....time to work with and address the munchkin's needs........

Love,

Dorothy....
wanna see my ruby red slippers? :teeth:*

.


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## Bobmuley (Jan 14, 2004)

Brown Hornet said:


> .... When is the NFAA going to realize that this shoot is about accuracy not about who can get around the range the fastest. :noidea:.


I guess I don't see where shooting four wide excludes accuracy. There is no time limit while you're on the line four wide or a reason you can't still spot for each other.

I also agree with Bowgod that the most fun to be had at a shoot is the BSn...but I see being done earlier as having more opportunity to BS and meet folks other than those in the foursome.


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## dead eye dick (Sep 1, 2004)

Well put bob but some can not understand your logic im sure


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## montigre (Oct 13, 2008)

Bobmuley said:


> I guess I don't see where shooting four wide excludes accuracy. There is no time limit while you're on the line four wide or a reason you can't still spot for each other.
> 
> I also agree with Bowgod that the most fun to be had at a shoot is the BSn...but I see being done earlier as having more opportunity to BS and meet folks other than those in the foursome.


Now, how are you going to spot for each other when all four of the players are aiming and shooting the same target(s) at the same time?? Must be more of that Bow Fu stuff....:wink:

With regard to feeling rushed, I'll relate a personal experience. This was my first nationals and I have to admit, I was shooting it with a recently torn tendon in my draw shoulder. It's functional, but can get quite a bit ouchy, especially if not given enough time to recoup between targets or shots. 

Because we were rushed through our targets by being made to feel it was mandatory to shoot 4 wide (people came up to us at least 5 times while we were shooting to insure we were shooting 4 wide) and not just an option, there was little time for physical recovery between targets and I ended up only being able to shoot every other day-- and even that was difficult.

Since I was in the midst of the women's flight pack and not one of the top ten shooters, this had no negative effect on my overall standings, but if I had been in the top ten and was forced to shoot in a manner that made me have to choose to either expose myself to a greater risk of severe injury or forfeit my chances for the silver, simply for the sake of convienience, I would have really been upset. 

It's great that the site allows for 4 wide shooting, but it should not be mandatory to do so. If a group wishes to take full advantage of the ranges' unique spacial capabilities and ends up shooting faster than the group in front of them, just allow them to shoot through, but don't make the entire field follow suit. 

Rushing a field round consisting of people with varied levels of shooting skills, degrees of physical fitness, and a myriad of medical issues is potentially asking for HUGE problems. :mg:

Okay, off my soapbox now...


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## BOWGOD (Aug 11, 2004)

Bobmuley said:


> I guess I don't see where shooting four wide excludes accuracy. There is no time limit while you're on the line four wide or a reason you can't still spot for each other.
> 
> I also agree with Bowgod that the most fun to be had at a shoot is the BSn...but I see being done earlier as having more opportunity to BS and meet folks other than those in the foursome.




I understand your logic, but what many here are not understanding is that shooting 4 wide did not save any signifigant amount of time. 90% of the time it takes to get through a course is split between walking to and from targets, and scoring. Shooting 4 wide had no impact on that. We can get through any local course shooting 2 wide in just about 4 hours. it took just about 4 hours each day to get through the course there shooting 4 wide. By rushing people, and making us shoot 4 wide they really only saved a few minutes.
I've said it several times on this thread alone. 2 days my group shot 2 wide the whole day (except for the fans) and we still got off the course at the same time or earlier than the groups on all the other ranges. So exactly how was 4 wide saving any time? It was still taking the same amount of time for the groups to get off the range the only difference is that many of them felt rushed, and the rushed feeling opened the door for stupid mistakes that normally wouldn't get made.


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## barebowstixx (Feb 8, 2008)

montigre said:


> Now, how are you going to spot for each other when all four of the players are aiming and shooting the same target(s) at the same time?? Must be more of that Bow Fu stuff....:wink:
> 
> With regard to feeling rushed, I'll relate a personal experience. This was my first nationals and I have to admit, I was shooting it with a recently torn tendon in my draw shoulder. It's functional, but can get quite a bit ouchy, especially if not given enough time to recoup between targets or shots.
> 
> ...


I agree 100%....Its hurry up and get done and sit at the hotel pool????? I'm here for the shoot...5 days...I was looking forward to shooting 2 and 2...lets me regroup...get a breather...relax a little between targets...take it all in...


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## Kstigall (Feb 24, 2004)

mag41vance said:


> Well now, Lets talk about that. I personally invite you (and your Dad ) to shoot in my backyard home range in Madison County VA located on the senic Rapidan river. 20 miles North of Charlottesville. I have all the necessary targets and distances marked out. Score cards are available with the distances to be shot posted on the card. If you start getting the shakes about shooting something other than the foam animals. I have one of those on the range as well, so you can take out your frustrations on that after you shoot that 53yd walk up or perhaps the 32y fan.:set1_rolf2:
> 
> How bout it Kent?


Thanks for the offer......... Do you have a couple of canoes to go with the river? 

I don't get the shakes. I've shot some decent scores poking holes in paper just not outside.

I've got more things to do than I can do so much so that it's all turned to doo-doo.

Being as I'm now also missing IBO World's (second year in a row) to go along with outdoor nationals. I'm turning my attention to fishing and hunting. Setting up game cameras, cutting paths, checking sign, finding bucks, catching bass, crappie and lazy catfishing is what's on my agenda...........throw in some croaker fishing and I'll be good. Every year about early August I get this urge to hop off the treadmill. You guys can have your target points I need to fly some broadheads.....


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## dead eye dick (Sep 1, 2004)

montigre why would you even try to shoot with a torn shoulder tendon , and why then do you think you should of been given special treatment if you cant keep up dont shoot , i understand trying to do it but it was stupid you could of really blown your shoulder up and not been able to shoot for a long time no shoot is worth that


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## BOWGOD (Aug 11, 2004)

barebowstixx said:


> I agree 100%....Its hurry up and get done and sit at the hotel pool????? I'm here for the shoot...5 days...I was looking forward to shooting 2 and 2...lets me regroup...get a breather...relax a little between targets...take it all in...


what he said


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## mag41vance (Mar 13, 2008)

Kstigall said:


> Thanks for the offer......... Do you have a couple of canoes to go with the river?
> 
> I don't get the shakes. I've shot some decent scores poking holes in paper just not outside.
> 
> ...


 Sounds like a good schedule to me.
I just tuned my blades for hunting last week and I am looking forward to the fall bowhunting as well. 
I don't have any canoes, but I usally wade down river about half a mile and fly-fish my way back home. Have cradled many 2-3 pound smallies over the years. Nothing like a 3 lb smallmouth on a 9', 5wt flyrod.

I will be seein you on some range down the road I'm sure.:shade:


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## montigre (Oct 13, 2008)

dead eye dick said:


> montigre why would you even try to shoot with a torn shoulder tendon , and why then do you think you should of been given special treatment if you cant keep up dont shoot , i understand trying to do it but it was stupid you could of really blown your shoulder up and not been able to shoot for a long time no shoot is worth that


Nope, after having competed in gymnastics as a youngster and martial arts and training/showing horses as an adult, I'm extremely aware of the limitations of my body and how far it can be safely pushed. _Stupid I'm not, competitive I am._ I also had seen and was given a game plan to follow by my sports orthopedist a few days before leaving for nationals, so risk of severe injury was actually minimal. 

Now, on to the issue at hand. I am not saying I, or anyone else, should receive "special treatment" at a field shoot. However, one should also be able to attend a sanctioned event with knowledge that the rules, as stated in the constitution and by-laws of the governing organization, would be followed. Nowhere is it mandated that shooters MUST shoot 4 abreast if the situation allows. 

This has nothing to do with an individual's ability or lack thereof to keep up with the pack. It does have everything to do with generating rules "on the fly" for the sake of convienience that could potentially cause harm which, as Bowgod already pointed out, ended up being a mute point since little saved time was actually achieved. :smile:


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## BOWGOD (Aug 11, 2004)

montigre said:


> Nope, after having competed in gymnastics as a youngster and martial arts and training/showing horses as an adult, I'm extremely aware of the limitations of my body and how far it can be safely pushed. _Stupid I'm not, competitive I am._ I also had seen and was given a game plan to follow by my sports orthopedist a few days before leaving for nationals, so risk of severe injury was actually minimal.
> 
> Now, on to the issue at hand. I am not saying I, or anyone else, should receive "special treatment" at a field shoot. However, one should also be able to attend a sanctioned event with knowledge that the rules, as stated in the constitution and by-laws of the governing organization, would be followed. Nowhere is it mandated that shooters MUST shoot 4 abreast if the situation allows.
> 
> This has nothing to do with an individual's ability or lack thereof to keep up with the pack. It does have everything to do with generating rules "on the fly" for the sake of convienience that could potentially cause harm which, as Bowgod already pointed out, ended up being a mute point since little saved time was actually achieved. :smile:




I love you


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## dead eye dick (Sep 1, 2004)

well at least you consulted a doctor most would not of and you do now your limitation , it was stated in a previous message from mike who is a nfaa chair person that it was voted on by the chairs as long as it does not violate a exhisting rule its ok i would be willing to bet the had a rules meeting or gave out rule up dates at the shoot and as usual no one paid attention


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## Rattleman (Jul 6, 2004)

dead eye dick said:


> well at least you consulted a doctor most would not of and you do now your limitation , it was stated in a previous message from mike who is a nfaa chair person that it was voted on by the chairs as long as it does not violate a exhisting rule its ok i would be willing to bet the had a rules meeting or gave out rule up dates at the shoot and as usual no one paid attention


Actually it was announced prior to the start that they would LIKE us to shoot 4 across when the opportunity presented itself. The key word is LIKE here my boy. But while on the range the NAZIS made sure to push everyone that was taking a breather or in their opinion taking to long whether or not they were backing up groups.


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## blueglide1 (Jun 29, 2006)

Is there a penalty for ignoring the range officials?Just curious.


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## Bobmuley (Jan 14, 2004)

montigre said:


> Now, how are you going to spot for each other when all four of the players are aiming and shooting the same target(s) at the same time?? Must be more of that Bow Fu stuff....:wink:...


Simple. All four stand on the line. Two guys use binos to "read the target", and two guys shoot...atlernate after that. Since there is no time limit, but shoot rules dictated it, that is what I would have done. Play by the rules and take my time.:smile:



BOWGOD said:


> ... So exactly how was 4 wide saving any time? It was still taking the same amount of time for the groups to get off the range the only difference is that many of them felt rushed, and the rushed feeling opened the door for stupid mistakes that normally wouldn't get made.


 Some groups (more like individuals in a group) are just plain slower. Some folks lose track of time or surroundings and have to be continually reminded "you're up". Some just walk slow, some are slow at addition or calling, just have to search for infindable arrows, or are just plain disorganized. A few minutes here and there doesn't mean much...till you get to the 60-, 65-, and 80-yard walkups. Really the only place to strictly enforce four abreast to me would be those targets as they are the classic ones where everyone gets backed up. I've been to alot of shoots where those three take over an hour to shoot alone because of the backlog of shooters.


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## montigre (Oct 13, 2008)

dead eye dick said:


> ...it was stated in a previous message from mike who is a nfaa chair person that it was voted on by the chairs as long as it does not violate a exhisting rule its ok i would be willing to bet the had a rules meeting or gave out rule up dates at the shoot and as usual no one paid attention


Dead Eye;

If a rule update was announced, I, for one did not hear it—and it was not because I was not paying attention. Yes, even though I did not shoot all 5 days, I was there for every opening ceremony and every closing remark (when made) except for the last day—wanted to hit the road before traffic got really bad. I’m not saying some type of general announcement did not occur, it was impossible to hear all of what was being said if you were standing at or near the back of the pack due to the PA system used, but none of the shooters in my company had heard about the decision to shoot 4 abreast beforehand either. 

It is not my intention to get pi**y about this—not worth the effort, but in order to effect responsible and proactive input from the general membership, all sides of the story (pro, con, and neutral) should be considered and the membership not blind-sided by “surprise” changes to the status quo at the last minute. 

How long was it known that the nationals were to be held at Mechanicsburg? How many of the chair people have shot there before and could surmise shooting 4 abreast just might be a possibility? How long would it have taken to add that information to the NFAA website so everyone planning on attending would have been aware of the change in sufficient time to make any necessary changes to practice routines, health regimens, or whatever? 

Come on, we are living in the information age, are we not???? I'm not bashing the NFAA, I believe they did a great job with this event, but there were some very hitches along the way that should really be looked into further so the same mistakes are not carried blindly forward.


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## south-paaw (Jul 3, 2006)

*a thought...*

i wasn't there, and i'm not bashing or p**ng .... from what i gather, from reading these type of discussions, is that information packets are given (?) at-during registration to each shooter...( i remeber the thread about the shoot-off format for vegas a cpl yrs ago.. the info was in the packet, and some people didn't read it....i think that's what i remember..:smile: ) 

was there a packet given at Nats. and or what kind of info was contained within..?


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## archerpap (Apr 24, 2006)

Rattleman said:


> Actually it was announced prior to the start that they would LIKE us to shoot 4 across when the opportunity presented itself. The key word is LIKE here my boy. But while on the range the NAZIS made sure to push everyone that was taking a breather or in their opinion taking to long whether or not they were backing up groups.


Those so called "nazis" were all volunteers from the club, that gave up their time to come out and make sure everything was run as best as good be. Not one of them shot at all during the whole 5 days. Only a few got called out as to getting things ready, but a lot of them members need credit where credit is do. They didn't have the option to sit out Sunday when it rained, like a lot of shooters did. Like Mike said, what about the people that were there long after we all left, tallying scores, listing them on the website, changing targets. I was never pushed by anyone, range official or shooters. If things got backed up, we just went to shooting 2X2, then when we were able to, we would shoot 4 across. I followed Brad on Sunday, and when we got to a bale where they were just returning, we took our time. They only time we really had to wait for them was when we got to a longer target, like #2(70WU). I went to shoot and have a good time, which I did. I got to meet some new people, shoot with new people, and see some old friends. That's what it's all about!!!


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## Unclegus (May 27, 2003)

Yes, no one will argue that the members of Mechanicsburg Sportsmen did an outstanding job of putting on this shoot and we all thank them for it. But I also have no reason to doubt the people on here who have complained about being pushed by the field officials to get things going. Whether they were volunteers or paid a hundred bucks an hour, that is totally out of line and should never happen again no matter where the shoot is or who is running it....


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## Bob Dobalina (Apr 17, 2005)

I don't post a ton here but do a ton of reading and lurking I did go to my first Nationals this year. Had a great time. Thanks to the NFAA by the way.

I find it funny that people always want to tell the people that were there what was going on when they were sitting at home on their BUTTS. Yes it was said that we should shoot 4 wide when possible and to keep things moving. Yes some people were "pushed". 

Think about it. If you are shooting in a group that is not being slow but shooting the targets 2 X 2 other then the fans and walkups and a few other targets and the groups that are right in front of you are doing the same.

But in the 3-4 groups behind you they interperit the 4 wide thing different or have an herder pushing them you are going to get pushed or feel rushed period because you have different groups on the course doing different things. Nobody is wrong, and nobody is right. Yes we finished at a good time. But it seems pretty clear to those that WERE there that even without being herded along we still would have had the cards in by 3. Shooting 2 x 2 or simply not even mentioning anything about 4 wide unless groups were lagging behind and slowing everyone up would have been a better idea. 

Plain and simple if on avg the FS group which everyone knows is usually the slowest group was finishing between 12:45-1:30 everyday. Shooting 2 x wasn't going to add 2 hours to the round.

and for the person that wasn't there that swears everyone didn't listen or read the handouts. I did listen, I actually sat on the bench by the flag most days.  I also read the paper work and still have it here. 

Under GENERAL SHOOTING RULES
*#4. Two or more archers shall shoot at the same time to prevent delays. * 

That sure doesn't say 4 wide. Which is what a lot of people THAT WERE THERE were told on the course. My group being one of them.

that same rule #4 also states that *One group shall not hold up the following groups for any reason including looking for lost arrows. Enough arrows shall be carried so that each archer may continue shooting, and return later to find any missing arrows.*

AGAIN if you weren't there you can't tell those of us that WERE there what was going on. :zip:


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## south-paaw (Jul 3, 2006)

Bob Dobalina said:


> I don't post a ton here but do a ton of reading and lurking I did go to my first Nationals this year. Had a great time. Thanks to the NFAA by the way.
> 
> I find it funny that people always want to tell the people that were there what was going on when they were sitting at home on their BUTTS. Yes it was said that we should shoot 4 wide when possible and to keep things moving. Yes some people were "pushed".
> 
> ...




```

```
whose direction you throwing this at BOB..??


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## montigre (Oct 13, 2008)

Bobmuley said:


> Simple. All four stand on the line. Two guys use binos to "read the target", and two guys shoot...atlernate after that. Since there is no time limit, but shoot rules dictated it, that is what I would have done. Play by the rules and take my time.:smile:


So you're sayin, a newbie like myself would not only have to remember if I'm shooting the right vs left --top vs bottom targets, but also which two of the group were doing the spotting and when. Naaaw, far too much stuff to keep track of with the excitement of nationals going on for that to be a viable scenario....sheesh, people in the next county would have to dodge all the errant arrows....


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## Bob Dobalina (Apr 17, 2005)

south-paaw said:


> ```
> 
> ```
> whose direction you throwing this at BOB..??


I think you know who it's directed towards :darkbeer:


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## south-paaw (Jul 3, 2006)

Bob Dobalina said:


> I think you know who it's directed towards :darkbeer:


no worries..


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## Brown Hornet (Aug 8, 2002)

montigre said:


> So you're sayin, a newbie like myself would not only have to remember if I'm shooting the right vs left --top vs bottom targets, but also which two of the group were doing the spotting and when. Naaaw, far too much stuff to keep track of with the excitement of nationals going on for that to be a viable scenario....sheesh, people in the next county would have to dodge all the errant arrows....


It's pretty simple actually....we shot like that on Wed, Thurs and Sat for the most part. VERY rarely even shooting 4 wide is everyone at full draw at the same time :wink:

On Sat I shot with Matty, Rick Wills and another guy. Rick and I were on the same target and when he was shooting I was watching.... I would call his and he would call mine


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## BOWGOD (Aug 11, 2004)

Bobmuley said:


> Simple. All four stand on the line. Two guys use binos to "read the target", and two guys shoot...atlernate after that. Since there is no time limit, but shoot rules dictated it, that is what I would have done. Play by the rules and take my time.:smile:
> .




So basically shoot 2x2 but everyone crowd the line?

Now where does that save any time over shooting 2x2 in the traditional fashion.

The time thing keeps being brought up, but everywhere else that Nat's is held gets shot 2x2 and it still functions properly.


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## brtesite (May 24, 2002)

Rattleman said:


> Actually it was announced prior to the start that they would LIKE us to shoot 4 across when the opportunity presented itself. The key word is LIKE here my boy. But while on the range the NAZIS made sure to push everyone that was taking a breather or in their opinion taking to long whether or not they were backing up groups.


Nazis? that is un called for . These people are volenteers trying to do their best to provide a place for you to shoot. Maybe some of them were not to tactful, but you should be thankfull that the shoot came east. They thought they were doing what I asked every one to do. Just because you wanted all the time you wanted there were many shooters that were very happy to get off the range to do things with their families & friends.
Had it rained or if it was hot & humid you all would have complined that it was taking to long. If that is the only complaint that you were asked, notice I said asked, not demanded , then this was the best Nationals in a very long time.


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## brtesite (May 24, 2002)

blueglide1 said:


> Is there a penalty for ignoring the range officials?Just curious.


yes there is, depends


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## Brown Hornet (Aug 8, 2002)

brtesite said:


> Nazis? that is un called for . These people are volenteers trying to do their best to provide a place for you to shoot. Maybe some of them were not to tactful, but you should be thankfull that the shoot came east. They thought they were doing what I asked every one to do. Just because you wanted all the time you wanted there were many shooters that were very happy to get off the range to do things with their families & friends.
> Had it rained or if it was hot & humid you all would have complined that it was taking to long. If that is the only complaint that you were asked, notice I said asked, not demanded , then this was the best Nationals in a very long time.


Settle Mike.....:darkbeer:


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## brtesite (May 24, 2002)

Bob Dobalina said:


> I don't post a ton here but do a ton of reading and lurking I did go to my first Nationals this year. Had a great time. Thanks to the NFAA by the way.
> 
> I find it funny that people always want to tell the people that were there what was going on when they were sitting at home on their BUTTS. Yes it was said that we should shoot 4 wide when possible and to keep things moving. Yes some people were "pushed".
> 
> ...



it says 2 or more which also means 4


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## capemaybowman (Aug 13, 2008)

BOWGOD said:


> I understand your logic, but what many here are not understanding is that shooting 4 wide did not save any signifigant amount of time. 90% of the time it takes to get through a course is split between walking to and from targets, and scoring. Shooting 4 wide had no impact on that. We can get through any local course shooting 2 wide in just about 4 hours. it took just about 4 hours each day to get through the course there shooting 4 wide. By rushing people, and making us shoot 4 wide they really only saved a few minutes.
> I've said it several times on this thread alone. 2 days my group shot 2 wide the whole day (except for the fans) and we still got off the course at the same time or earlier than the groups on all the other ranges. So exactly how was 4 wide saving any time? It was still taking the same amount of time for the groups to get off the range the only difference is that many of them felt rushed, and the rushed feeling opened the door for stupid mistakes that normally wouldn't get made.


Glad we shot together and think the same way about this.


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## south-paaw (Jul 3, 2006)

capemaybowman said:


> *Glad we shot together *and think the same way about this.


and you didn't get a crispie..??...:mg:


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## brtesite (May 24, 2002)

montigre said:


> Dead Eye;
> 
> If a rule update was announced, I, for one did not hear it—and it was not because I was not paying attention. Yes, even though I did not shoot all 5 days, I was there for every opening ceremony and every closing remark (when made) except for the last day—wanted to hit the road before traffic got really bad. I’m not saying some type of general announcement did not occur, it was impossible to hear all of what was being said if you were standing at or near the back of the pack due to the PA system used, but none of the shooters in my company had heard about the decision to shoot 4 abreast beforehand either.
> 
> ...


there was no rule up date. It was always there. 2 or moreshall shoot which does take in up to 4

actualy for the shooters that were confused about the shooting rules, there were little hand outs , & the large book that were in your bags with all the shooting rules. How many ever read them? There were Pa shooters that were shooting Pa rules. 4 hunter faces 32 yds one arrow in each face.
They were never called on it. when I heard about it much later in the day, I made an anouncement that this was an Nfaa shoot & Nfaa rules must be Followed.


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## brtesite (May 24, 2002)

Brown Hornet said:


> Settle Mike.....:darkbeer:


Yeah hornet, guess next time have the cards in at 1:00


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## Brown Hornet (Aug 8, 2002)

brtesite said:


> Yeah hornet, guess next time have the cards in at 1:00


Only if you let me pick my own group..... I can get around the course that fast and have the cards in with Hinky, Shane and Sticky


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## Brown Hornet (Aug 8, 2002)

brtesite said:


> there was no rule up date. It was always there. 2 or moreshall shoot which does take in up to 4
> 
> actualy for the shooters that were confused about the shooting rules, there were little hand outs , & the large book that were in your bags with all the shooting rules. How many ever read them? There were Pa shooters that were shooting Pa rules. 4 hunter faces 32 yds one arrow in each face.
> They were never called on it. when I heard about it much later in the day, I made an anouncement that this was an Nfaa shoot & Nfaa rules must be Followed.


My bag didn't have the large book....the only book in my bag was the LAS catalog  The large books were on the table though for those that needed them.


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## Brown Hornet (Aug 8, 2002)

brtesite said:


> it says 2 or more which also means 4


Yes that does also include 4.....but I think the problem is that some implied that it meant you HAD to shoot 4 wide.


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## barebowstixx (Feb 8, 2008)

brtesite said:


> there was no rule up date. It was always there. 2 or moreshall shoot which does take in up to 4
> 
> actualy for the shooters that were confused about the shooting rules, there were little hand outs , & the large book that were in your bags with all the shooting rules. How many ever read them? There were Pa shooters that were shooting Pa rules. 4 hunter faces 32 yds one arrow in each face.
> They were never called on it. when I heard about it much later in the day, I made an anouncement that this was an Nfaa shoot & Nfaa rules must be Followed.


Were these shooters from pa all in the same group? if not then the out of state shooter did what?


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## montigre (Oct 13, 2008)

brtesite said:


> there was no rule up date. It was always there. 2 or moreshall shoot which does take in up to 4
> 
> actualy for the shooters that were confused about the shooting rules, there were little hand outs , & the large book that were in your bags with all the shooting rules. How many ever read them? There were Pa shooters that were shooting Pa rules. 4 hunter faces 32 yds one arrow in each face.
> They were never called on it. when I heard about it much later in the day, I made an anouncement that this was an Nfaa shoot & Nfaa rules must be Followed.



I used the term "rule update" only because that was the terminology used bu the OP. I know rules cannot be changed in that manner...

Personally, since this was my first nationals, I did tear through my bag and read the shooting rules booklet as soon as I got to my hotel. I also went through the general rules posted on the NFAA website before even going to the site because I wanted to be as responsible a participant as possible out of basic respect for the other archers with much more experience than I have. 

And yes, the booklet passed out during sign-in did state that 2 or more shall shoot, but that is still a very far cry from _4 must shoot_ especially when target back ups without shooting 4 abreast were already at a minimum. 

I understand the volunteers were just doing what they were told to do, but as mentioned earlier, a few lacked even the most rudimentary levels of tact and were quite forceful in demanding adherence to the 4 abreast decision. I can look at my scorecard and tell exactly when one of those individuals literally hovered around our shooting group (one time standing a mere 2-3 feet directly behind the shooters while all 4 arrow were shot). 

I know, I know, this is archery, a mental sport and I and everyone else should be able to block out such minor intrusions, but remember, I am still just learning this game. 

However that said, that does not absolve those volunteers of their responsibility as fellow archers to be considerate enough in their approach not to cause the group to feel rushed through the targets--especially at a nationals event. 

Everyone involved in putting on this event did an absolute fantastic job--NFAA, Mechanicsburg Archers, and Mechanicsburg Sportman's Association. I thoroughly enjoyed my overall experience at the nationals and will hold those fond memories with me for a very long time. However there was a negative issue that occurred that should not just be swept under the carpet, and I believe it should be evaluated before the next event. Nothing more...nothing less....:smile:


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## BOWGOD (Aug 11, 2004)

brtesite said:


> Nazis? that is un called for . These people are volenteers trying to do their best to provide a place for you to shoot. Maybe some of them were not to tactful, but you should be thankfull that the shoot came east. They thought they were doing what I asked every one to do. Just because you wanted all the time you wanted there were many shooters that were very happy to get off the range to do things with their families & friends.
> Had it rained or if it was hot & humid you all would have complined that it was taking to long. If that is the only complaint that you were asked, notice I said asked, not demanded , then this was the best Nationals in a very long time.




Mike your right, it was a very very good national shoot. I have shot National shoots under just about every venue, and this was by far the best ran shoot.
Being that the only real complaint that has even been heard from this shoot is the 4 wide situation says alot.
But it also brings to mind the question of how great it would have been (or will be the next time) if this 4 wide situation disapears. the vast majority agree that a 2x2 format would have been much more enjoyable so why not make the next National shoot "perfect"

I know you don't have everyone shooting 4 wide in Darrington, or Yankton and everything still falls into place so why not shoot the same way in PA?

I can't say if I would return to Mechanicsburg for Nats if I know I will have to shoot 4 wide again. It takes too much from the game for me. Not saying for sure I wouldn't shoot, but I know if I did I would not shoot all 5 days again. Like the old saying goes "if your not having fun, you shouldn't be shooting" and when we are shooting 4 wide I did NOT have any fun.

Just some food for thought.


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## archerpap (Apr 24, 2006)

Thursday, we had to shoot 5 in our group. 2 guys had to shoot the same targets on the closer ones(23,20,19,17,15,14). On the bunnies, we agreed to have 3 guys shoot, score their arrows and pull them, then the other 2 would shoot. We did that the entire day(3-2), and never had anyone catch us, push us, or tell us how to shoot otherwise. Talk about some scoring nightmares with 20 arrows in a target, and 4 of the 5 using green nocks and fletching. Even on Sunday, the group in front of us had 4 guys. When Tom Pruitt and I were the only one on the target, we had one from Brad's group join us. Our 3rd shooter showed up, giving us 4. The 2 groups behind us also only had 3 shooters, and we figured it would get backed up. A few times the group behind us waited for us, but for the most part, everyone kept moving, and we all finished at the same time.


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## field14 (May 21, 2002)

I wasn't there, but have been around the block to too many field tournaments to count over 40+ years of competitive NFAA shooting.

I"ve read nearly everything on this thread.

I'm with CHPro...2X2 or 4 abreast doesn't bother me one iota. TIME does, however.

My conclusion is really simple....Set the time that the scorecards MUST be turned in by...and ENFORCE IT. As long as people know up front when they MUST have something completed, they'll be fine with it.

Personally, I think 5 hours is AMPLE TIME to complete a field or hunter round as long as there are 3 or 4 shooters in a group. In recent past Nationals, however, people have abused the TIME thing...and taken 6 or more hours and then complained about being out in the heat and humidity and weather ALL DAY LONG.

I think that shooting 4 abreast when possible is just fine...if the lanes don't allow it then you cannot do that. If you are running behind on your TIME...your group needs to accommodate that, and get used to it.

I'd say just have a TIME LIMIT to have score cards turned in and ENFORCE THAT TIME LIMIT, period. This might even include an agenda item to clear out the "let down rule"....since the time limit will sure take care of that "noise" in a hurry when a group falls behind! The offending party will pretty much "pressured" into getting his shots executed more "timely" (pun intended).

I won't comment here on "Flights" vs. "Classes"...other than to say that the "class thingy" never did work very well on a NATIONAL OUTDOOR level. You guys wouldn't want to be standing around on day #1 and again on Day 3 while the tournament committee went thru the handicap cards, assigned groups by grouping scorecards, then assigning targets, AND assigniging classes and then you get to pick up your scorecards and go to the target you are assigned....you think you have delays now? Been there and seen that in the past....and SANDBAGGING was rampant; way worse than the FLIGHT system.

field14


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## weller (Dec 24, 2006)

More than once on this thread I read people felt rushed, then in the next sentence say it took the same amount of time to shoot. So if it took 4hr to shoot 2 wide and 4hr to shoot 4 wide how were you rushed? I like shooting 4 wide where possible. I would rather shoot then talk to people back at the pavillion, not sit and wait at every target, which gets me out of my groove. If you want to have 4 extra hours to talk and hang out on the course then shoot 3d. I was there, I shot some of my best scores, and I wouldn't change a thing. just my 2 cents



Steve Weller


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## SCS (Jun 27, 2005)

First off, I want to thank everyone that came out. I had the pleasure to meet some of the nicest people while walking the courses for 5 days. 
As far as being an official and having people shooting 4 wide, I'd like to clear up a few things as they were explained to us. We were not "officials". We were not there to call arrows or enforce the rule book. We were told to have everyone shoot 4 wide, like they said every morning in the announcements. Besides that, we were finding lost cell phones, taking care of shooters with broken equipment, and at one point, helping an injured shooter get off the course so he could get checked out and make sure he was OK. 
If the 4 wide shooting was that much of an issue, it should have been brought up to Mike and MaryHelen on Thursday, or after shooting on Wednesday. They were there all week.
The majority of us that were there used our vacation so we could help you enjoy yours. To be refered as "nazis" on the course really makes me rethink doing that.
Steve


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## Unclegus (May 27, 2003)

Thank you for you candidness. There is always two sides to every story. You were told to have everyone shoot four wide. That tells us where we should be directing our displeasure with the four wide thing....And it definitely isn't with you guys at Mechanicsburg.....Expect an agenda item in February.


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## mdbowhunter (Oct 22, 2002)

weller said:


> More than once on this thread I read people felt rushed, then in the next sentence say it took the same amount of time to shoot. So if it took 4hr to shoot 2 wide and 4hr to shoot 4 wide how were you rushed? I like shooting 4 wide where possible. I would rather shoot then talk to people back at the pavillion, not sit and wait at every target, which gets me out of my groove. If you want to have 4 extra hours to talk and hang out on the course then shoot 3d. I was there, I shot some of my best scores, and I wouldn't change a thing. just my 2 cents
> 
> 
> 
> Steve Weller


I talked to Hornet awhile about this subject...and this thread a few nights ago. The bottom line is virtually *ALL* of the Field ranges here in Maryland and Virginia do not have lanes wide enough to support 4 across shooting. So, you get in the habit during every weekend shoot of having two shooters and two spotters. It's a comfort zone thing.

If you can complete a round within the time limit and shoot two at a time, what is the problem? If you shoot two across and are not creating a back-up behind, what is the problem? Don't get me wrong...I wasn't there and I'm not faulting the range officials...but at some point common sense needs to be applied.


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## phantom15 (May 12, 2005)

*4 Wide*

4 wide is great if you are at a Nascar Race! Not needed at a field event but I am not against it if the circumstances warrant it. There is not and was not a rule saying that you must shoot four wide. It was merely a suggestion by range officials to keep things moving along. We used our own judgement all 5 days. If someone caught up with us we would shoot 4 wide to pull away from them (if the target was large enough to accept cross shooting) otherwise we shot two wide. This worked great and we hardly ever waited or got caught . The last day was a lot of waiting due to some seniors that loved to socialize at every target. Retired Huh? As for the Animals ..... We all have to shoot whatever they throw at us so no need to complain. I would also like to see risk reward involved. I think puttin the dot in the corner of the kill would give the boldest of archers a chance to catch-up or die hard! An archer leading would be more prone to playin it safe while chasers would take more chances. Very interesting if you ask me. Just my 2 cents.

Tim


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## Jbird (May 21, 2002)

*Scs*

Steve, don't misunderstand what is being said here. Everyone I talked to shared our opinion that this was one of the best organized and run Nationals
ever. The helpers on the courses were doing a great job of tending to the
needs of the archers, changing targets, keeping the water barrels full, and 
making the shoot a pleasure to shoot. I did hear about people being told to
shoot four across and we now know you were only doing as the tournament
directors asked. The guy's Nazi comment was out of line and I hope you will overlook it. The fact is that the shoot ran smoothly and we finished in plenty of time each day and we shot some 4 across but mostly 2 across.
There seems to be some kind of rampant paranoia in the NFAA about zipping through and getting off the courses in 4 hours. There is no point in the NFAA getting peoples panties in a wad just to get off the courses 30 minutes early. It's not the 2 up shooting that slows things down. It's the traditional shooters going on easter egg hunts for arrows and the string walking. Put these groups starting behind everyone else and then let them stew in their own juice. Your courses at Mechanicsburg are so well laid out and easy to shoot that your club should never encounter problems with time anyway.
We are looking forward to returning to the Nationals at Mechanicsburg at 
the next opportunity. Thank you for all you guys did to make this years Nationals a pleasure.

Jbird


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## araz2114 (Jan 13, 2003)

Thank you to everyone that made this shoot AWESOME, Steve. Remember you only hear of people complaining and generally don't hear the compliments as loudly. Again I liked the 4 up shooting. This shoot was so successful that if you didn't change anything I would sign up for the next one in Mechanicsburg right now... I Loved it!

Field 14, there is no way that you could enforce the "must be done by this time" rule. How could you penalize other archers for one or more slow archers in a group. I shoot relatively fast, however on Sunday I was put into a group with 2 very slow archers. That isn't their fault... it is their problem though. There is a 3 letdown rule so they are entitled to it. I can assure you that me riding them to shoot faster would not help them shoot faster or better and only make for hard feelings amongst the group. On a field course I may only let down 3 or 4 times all day. Others however may do that almost every arrow.

Keep it the way it is for Mechanicsburg. Send out a mailer to every archer and ask them what they want... don't just listen to the people that complain... they will always complain... but sometimes that is how progress is made...

The "Nazi's" comment was unfair and I don't believe that it should be taken to heart. I personally never had any official push me along. I would buy any and all of the volunteers at Mechanicsburg a "cold one" any day of the week. What an incredible job EVERYONE at the club did. THANK YOU!!!!!!

Chris


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## GOT LUCKY (Apr 30, 2005)

phantom15 said:


> 4 wide is great if you are at a Nascar Race! Not needed at a field event but I am not against it if the circumstances warrant it. There is not and was not a rule saying that you must shoot four wide. It was merely a suggestion by range officials to keep things moving along. We used our own judgement all 5 days. If someone caught up with us we would shoot 4 wide to pull away from them (if the target was large enough to accept cross shooting) otherwise we shot two wide. This worked great and we hardly ever waited or got caught . The last day was a lot of waiting due to some seniors that loved to socialize at every target. Retired Huh? As for the Animals ..... We all have to shoot whatever they throw at us so no need to complain. I would also like to see risk reward involved. I think puttin the dot in the corner of the kill would give the boldest of archers a chance to catch-up or die hard! An archer leading would be more prone to playin it safe while chasers would take more chances. Very interesting if you ask me. Just my 2 cents.
> 
> Tim


*
I like it!!!.....a little "3-D" challenge built in might bring more of the 3-Ders over to try Field....Great way to grow interest and membership....

Now as far as the 4WIDE shooting....I believe it tested the "what if we had 800-1,000 shooters" theory as could we handle that many at one time and still get off the range before dark. It appears that shooting 4WIDE would not help as it still took about the same amount of time as 2UP...

Just looking into the future........*


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## John49 (Feb 25, 2006)

" It's the traditional shooters going on easter egg hunts for arrows and the string walking. Put these groups starting behind everyone else and then let them stew in their own juice."------ I suppose you never missed a target. Traditional shooters are the real archers. Lets take away all your fancy gadgets and scopes and see if you hit the target every time. Statements like you just made are what gives the NFAA a bad name.


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## FS560 (May 22, 2002)

First off, I was not there but have shot enough nationals previously to have experience in the 2 up or 4 up issue.

I like the 4 up shooting and am going to take the same time whether I am shooting 2 up or 4 up. I am a slow shooter and do like to socialize while on the range. When shooting 4 up, you can easily take more time between shots at a comfortable pace.

I also do not participate in the arrow spotting bs. If I want to look at my own arrows, I have the equipment to do so and I really do not want you calling my arrows and I do not call others. If you want to know where your arrows are, look at them with your own equipment.

Regarding the constant pressure from the range workers to shoot 4 up, all you have to do is not pay attention or tell them that badgering is breaking your concentration. The ones that are not nazi's will respect your wishes, whereas the ones that are will harass you until you threaten to sic Dave Hyrn on them.

We did have a concern that there might be well in excess of 600 to 650 shooters and the decision to promote 4 up shooting was made before the actual attendance was realized.

There was a possibility of having 32 or more groups per range. In that event, shooting 4 up might have helped get the additional groups through.

I do feel like there is an attitude among the people running tournaments that the shooters are to be rushed through the round so the officials can finish their work early. Is there some connection between tournament officials and archery proficiency and they only know how to fling 4 arrows without thinking and race to the next target.


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## BOWGOD (Aug 11, 2004)

FS560 said:


> First off, I was not there but have shot enough nationals previously to have experience in the 2 up or 4 up issue.
> 
> I like the 4 up shooting and am going to take the same time whether I am shooting 2 up or 4 up. I am a slow shooter and do like to socialize while on the range. When shooting 4 up, you can easily take more time between shots at a comfortable pace.
> 
> ...




Jim,
The arrow spotting is a courtesy for the most part. When you have 4 guys shooting at the same target, and 3 of the 4 are using the same color nocks it it easy to loose your arrows in the mix. Having someone watch as they are going in the target makes it much easier to know where we are hitting. 
I have one of the best pair of optics on the market, and there were definately targets where I could not find the arrow I just shot.
I know this issue cost quite a few people points that could otherwise have been saved.

Once again from a time efficiency stand point, is there any real time saved in the following senario:

Group 1 shooting 4 across, each shooter
1. shoots an arrow
2. puts the bow down
3. pulls up the bino's
4. finds his/her arrow
5. brings the bow back up
6. make adjustments if necc. 
7. shoots arrow 2
8. repeat steps 2-7

Group 2 shooting 2x2, 2 shooting and 2 spotting telling the shooter the outcome of the shot, each shooter
1. shoots an arrow
2. makes adjustments if Necc.
3. shoots arrow 2
4. repeat step 2 & 3


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## C Doyle 88 (Sep 1, 2007)

*Deep Thoughts ---NFAA Nats*

With this as the title I assume that I can continue with my thoughts

The Pros are treated differantly than the rest of the shooters
Is this because they get no awards ???
Or is it because they are already ranked ??

I also assume that the top pros shot together(with their peers) on the first day ??

Who did BRAD XHUNTER shoot with on his first day??
If it was 3 of his peers---then the ranking has already begun-----but is only used while discriminating against the other able--but unknown---shooters

If Brad shot with luck of the draw----then ranking is only available to the special ones

NO OFFENCE MENT TO ANY ONE ------I'M TRYING TO SHOW THE THE SYSTEM AS IS DOESN'T WORK-----and possible reasons for it 

If we clear our heads and think about RANKING it may give the solutions w/o costing the loss of interest from the general body of shooters-----where all the fear is with NFAA ----attendance numbers

Anyone that competes at a ranking shoot(all regular NFAA shoots)--contributes to their ranked value by their scores/wins etc----

When all shooters come together for a championship shoot the target assignments are already established by the shooters RANKINGs---all will be shooting with their peers from day one as they should be 

If the NATs are----for instance----mon-fri----and only available to the top RANKed shooters in each style based on the number of members in that style-----no others allowed to shoot 
Although if the shoot (open to all) was held as it is now---on the weekend prior to the championship week----the general rank & file shooters could get one last chance to advance their RANKING and get into CHAMP-week

This would be incentives to get those scores up all year---keep the ranges up in shape---have more field/hunter/animal rounds as those ranges were designed to support---

The archers could check their ranking at any time and see who's getting better faster----AND GET BUSY SHOOTING---

Others will know the how to because it's being done around the world right now---it's been done in golf for 100yrs------
Maybe it's too high tech for archers----we could go back to throwing rocks----But I don't want to----I like archery----and after 40yrs of it I'd like to see it get better-----not worse------
This may not be the only solution---but I believe it's one that could work

Thanks for listening----

Cec


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## weller (Dec 24, 2006)

Again if 4 across is no faster then how are you being rushed, if you were rushed then you would get done faster not at the same time. As for the same color nocks, they are cheap, I carry 3 different colors of the same nocks and switch if everyone has the same color. I can find mine with cheap glass.


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## BOWGOD (Aug 11, 2004)

weller said:


> Again if 4 across is no faster then how are you being rushed, if you were rushed then you would get done faster not at the same time. As for the same color nocks, they are cheap, I carry 3 different colors of the same nocks and switch if everyone has the same color. I can find mine with cheap glass.




Feeling rushed did not change the pace in wich I shot, it changed the preasure under wich I was shooting, and changed the overall mood of the group. 
I still shot at my pace the only difference is I was made to feel guilty for doing so, and did not have as much fun as I could have.
There were several times that officials told us to shoot 4 across and speed it up when the group behind us was still pulling arrows 2 targets back.

The big point I am getting at in my posts is everyone is stressing time efficiency as the reason to shoot 4 across. When in fact shooting 4 across was not as time efficient as they thought it would be. The only thing acomplished by the 4 wide ruling was pushing shooters out of their comfort zone, and making for an unpleasant day for many of us.
I mean did it really matter if you got back to the hotel pool at 2:00 or 2:15???
We used our vacation time to go and shoot if I wanted to spend the day at Gettysburg or hershy park I would have planned that as my vacation not Nationals.

Everywhere else they hold Nat's they shoot 2x2 so why not PA? 2X2 obviously works everywhere else so why not in PA?
Mechanicsburg is the only place I have ever shot that makes you shoot 4 wide, and that is the reason I do not go to any of the other shoots they hold there. It is one of the closer field ranges for me to drive to, but I would rather drive the extra distance and at least enjoy myself while shooting. Shooting 4 wide does not make for an enjoyable shooting experience for "me"


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## Rattleman (Jul 6, 2004)

brtesite said:


> Nazis? that is un called for . These people are volenteers trying to do their best to provide a place for you to shoot. Maybe some of them were not to tactful, but you should be thankfull that the shoot came east. They thought they were doing what I asked every one to do. Just because you wanted all the time you wanted there were many shooters that were very happy to get off the range to do things with their families & friends.
> Had it rained or if it was hot & humid you all would have complined that it was taking to long. If that is the only complaint that you were asked, notice I said asked, not demanded , then this was the best Nationals in a very long time.


Mike I usually would agree. However that is how I felt. When a Volunteer stands behind you with their arms crossed and then says.."OK .lets get moving" and then stands there until you are finished. Never once did one of them come up to us and ASK us to kindly pick up the pace. So YES I will stick to my terminology "NAZI" thank you very much..I can also appreciate all the time and effort that these fine folks put into making this happen. For that I am truely appreciative. But Archery is something that I enjoy and I for one do not want to take valuable time from work and go some place and feel rushed. I feel rushed everyday doing what I do for a living and when I go on vacation I will not be rushed. This is not a business for me this is pure pleasure. Mike as you can see by the majority of the responces the time thing was probably the only thing that anyone is complaining about. You had a time limit in place why not just enforce the 3 pm time limit?? Have the officials in place to eliminate backups and whatever else that they were doing.As far as I can see this was not a bashing thread but an informative one. Have a nice day.


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## archerpap (Apr 24, 2006)

BOWGOD said:


> Feeling rushed did not change the pace in wich I shot, it changed the preasure under wich I was shooting, and changed the overall mood of the group.
> I still shot at my pace the only difference is I was made to feel guilty for doing so, and did not have as much fun as I could have.
> There were several times that officials told us to shoot 4 across and speed it up when the group behind us was still pulling arrows 2 targets back.
> 
> ...


What changed the pressure you where under? There is nothing different in the shot process wether you are at 20YDS at Vegas or 80YDS at Nat's. It's still the same shot. It's all the mental game. Maybe a little practice with that would help. I never heard Mechanicsburg tell me I have to shoot 4 wide. We may line up 4 wide at states, but we shoot 2X2, and spot for each other. Like you said yourself, it's being courtious, but you can still check your own arrows on the next spot. That's basically what we did at Nat's also.


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## BOWGOD (Aug 11, 2004)

archerpap said:


> What changed the pressure you where under? There is nothing different in the shot process wether you are at 20YDS at Vegas or 80YDS at Nat's. It's still the same shot. It's all the mental game. Maybe a little practice with that would help. I never heard Mechanicsburg tell me I have to shoot 4 wide. We may line up 4 wide at states, but we shoot 2X2, and spot for each other. Like you said yourself, it's being courtious, but you can still check your own arrows on the next spot. That's basically what we did at Nat's also.




Just the emphasis put on getting done faster. I know the one day we were ridden hard (and this was a day we actually shot 4 wide) it got to the point that I felt guilty when I needed to let down. I can honestly say I had NO fun that day.

When I shot the states there last year I was forced to shoot 4 wide, and if you remember when I came off the range I was a little hot under the collar to say the least.
For me it is just NO fun shooting that way. And I am not going to pay that kind of money to shoot, and not have any fun.
This thread provides plenty proof that I am not the only one who shares these feelings. There is just no reason we could not shoot 2x2 and still have our cards in on time. it doesn't take 6 hours to shoot 28 targets unless it is an ibo shoot and everyone starts on the same target.
The NFAA does a great job organizing it so we get through the range very smooth so 6 hours is plenty of time for even the slowest shooters to shoot 2x2.


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## mdbowhunter (Oct 22, 2002)

C Doyle 88 said:


> With this as the title I assume that I can continue with my thoughts
> 
> The Pros are treated differantly than the rest of the shooters
> Is this because they get no awards ???
> ...


Why do you feel this prior ranking and shooting with your peers is so important? IMHO this is an elitest view of archery. You wanna drive a bunch of people away...this would do it.

The Pros and a few talented Joes are where they are because of their ability *AND* the time they can devote to archery. Then...there are the rest of us. We shoot for the challenge, enjoyment and the chance to meet new people. We already know up-front we have little chance of winning anything.

I don't believe many Field archers would tolerate some drawn-out process which establishes a ranking. I know I wouldn't. Frankly, I see no problems with a potential National Champion shooting with us wanna-bees for a round or two before they are grouped with their peers. They still have to make the shots regardless of who they are shooting alongside.


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## brtesite (May 24, 2002)

Rattleman said:


> Mike I usually would agree. However that is how I felt. When a Volunteer stands behind you with their arms crossed and then says.."OK .lets get moving" and then stands there until you are finished. Never once did one of them come up to us and ASK us to kindly pick up the pace. So YES I will stick to my terminology "NAZI" thank you very much..I can also appreciate all the time and effort that these fine folks put into making this happen. For that I am truely appreciative. But Archery is something that I enjoy and I for one do not want to take valuable time from work and go some place and feel rushed. I feel rushed everyday doing what I do for a living and when I go on vacation I will not be rushed. This is not a business for me this is pure pleasure. Mike as you can see by the majority of the responces the time thing was probably the only thing that anyone is complaining about. You had a time limit in place why not just enforce the 3 pm time limit?? Have the officials in place to eliminate backups and whatever else that they were doing.As far as I can see this was not a bashing thread but an informative one. Have a nice day.



Ed,You used the word Nazis again. you haven't a clue of what that word means. It very offensive. These guys took vacation so every one could shoot a nationals & you demean them.
May be the range captain you had was agressive, but you just smeared all of them & I know that is not is not true. You say this was not a bashing one, but they are taking it that way. You could have come to me with the complaint & I would have taken care of it. I was there all day.
I would say that every one I spoke to loved the format. Even on here I don't think there are 20 people complaining . I may be wrong.
Some of you say that you lost points. I watched the so called primadonnas (pros) shoot.They shot 4 across never *****ed about any thing. Jesse shot clean, the rest almost did. I think they get to much of a bad rap some times.

I think if you took a poll, the majority liked the format.

I'll say it here now, i'm glad it will be 3 yrs before it may come back here. It will give time to have the dust settle.
My fear is that they won't want us back. Hope I'm wrong


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## Rattleman (Jul 6, 2004)

brtesite said:


> Ed,You used the word Nazis again. you haven't a clue of what that word means. It very offensive. These guys took vacation so every one could shoot a nationals & you demean them.
> May be the range captain you had was agressive, but you just smeared all of them & I know that is not is not true. You say this was not a bashing one, but they are taking it that way. You could have come to me with the complaint & I would have taken care of it. I was there all day.
> I would say that every one I spoke to loved the format. Even on here I don't think there are 20 people complaining . I may be wrong.
> Some of you say that you lost points. I watched the so called primadonnas (pros) shoot.They shot 4 across never *****ed about any thing. Jesse shot clean, the rest almost did. I think they get to much of a bad rap some times.
> ...


Mike I possibly overstepped my bounds and I appologize if I have offended the hard working volunteers at the event. I am truely sorry for the statements that depict the volunteers as NAZI's. We all know that they tried very hard to please the archers and for that I am appreciative. But I still felt hurried


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## BOWGOD (Aug 11, 2004)

brtesite said:


> .
> 
> I think if you took a poll, the majority liked the format.
> 
> ...




I really don't think there is that much dust in the air. I really seems the only area of discontent among anybody was the 4 wide situation (wich seems like there is a reasonable fix to that) As far as everything else goes everyone seems rather pleased with the way it was ran.

I think if you took a poll it would show that the 4 wide was an issue for alot of people. Sure not everyone will feel the same way, but I do feel like the majority would. 
Now I did not talk to everyone who was there last week, but the ones I did talk to did not like the 4 wide. Up until this thread I had not heard anyone who enjoyed shooting 4 wide.

But is is feeling like we are beating a dead horse here. I do not feel like the powers that be are going to take our opinion into consideration, and try to make us happy so I am just about done with this thread.


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## C Doyle 88 (Sep 1, 2007)

mdbowhunter said:


> Why do you feel this prior ranking and shooting with your peers is so important? IMHO this is an elitest view of archery. You wanna drive a bunch of people away...this would do it.
> 
> The Pros and a few talented Joes are where they are because of their ability *AND* the time they can devote to archery. Then...there are the rest of us. We shoot for the challenge, enjoyment and the chance to meet new people. We already know up-front we have little chance of winning anything.
> 
> I don't believe many Field archers would tolerate some drawn-out process which establishes a ranking. I know I wouldn't. Frankly, I see no problems with a potential National Champion shooting with us wanna-bees for a round or two before they are grouped with their peers. They still have to make the shots regardless of who they are shooting alongside.


Sorry you don't understand what I'm saying----
Those that don't understand it ---would never be affected by it ------

BUT-----the true portion of the nationals that the world champions are a part of would not be affected by the trivial dribble that is going on here

No one has the right to tell the world champion how what or when to shoot an arrow------
No one but their peers should even be on that target----They have devoted many yrs of their life to only that end and should be allowed to compete with each other w/o interferance or interuption 

The rest who view it as just another novelity round need to be hurded around like cattle -------but the champions should never be disrespected this way------

Again if you don't understand how it would work-----it doesn't really apply to you----

But infact the system is in place and working in many areas right now 

Your class cards at the state level is the base for the ranking system and it has been in place for 50yrs----but it is all disreguarded at the national level-----instead of using that info to establish the ranking from the top down---and give everyone something to work for if they are archer enough to do it-----and if they are not ----no they shouldn't be involved in the championship portion of the nationals

I may be wrong but I think this is what BH is saying with this thread-----that he is ready to do what he needs to to step up with the champs-----but is this all there is---don't want to speek for you ---just my impression

And I guess until the world champions that were at this event/and other events in the past--- posts a disagreement with me-----there might be a posibility that a ranking format would be better


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## Brown Hornet (Aug 8, 2002)

Rattleman said:


> Mike I usually would agree. However that is how I felt. When a Volunteer stands behind you with their arms crossed and then says.."OK .lets get moving" and then stands there until you are finished. Never once did one of them come up to us and ASK us to kindly pick up the pace. So YES I will stick to my terminology "NAZI" thank you very much..I can also appreciate all the time and effort that these fine folks put into making this happen. For that I am truely appreciative. But Archery is something that I enjoy and I for one do not want to take valuable time from work and go some place and feel rushed. I feel rushed everyday doing what I do for a living and when I go on vacation I will not be rushed. This is not a business for me this is pure pleasure. Mike as you can see by the majority of the responces the time thing was probably the only thing that anyone is complaining about. You had a time limit in place why not just enforce the 3 pm time limit?? Have the officials in place to eliminate backups and whatever else that they were doing.*As far as I can see this was not a bashing thread but an informative one*. Have a nice day.


Exactly


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## Brown Hornet (Aug 8, 2002)

brtesite said:


> Ed,You used the word Nazis again. you haven't a clue of what that word means. It very offensive. These guys took vacation so every one could shoot a nationals & you demean them.
> May be the range captain you had was agressive, but you just smeared all of them & I know that is not is not true. *You say this was not a bashing one, but they are taking it that way.* You could have come to me with the complaint & I would have taken care of it. I was there all day.
> I would say that every one I spoke to loved the format. Even on here I don't think there are 20 people complaining . I may be wrong.
> Some of you say that you lost points. I watched the so called primadonnas (pros) shoot.They shot 4 across never *****ed about any thing. Jesse shot clean, the rest almost did. I think they get to much of a bad rap some times.
> ...


But the THEY's are people that weren't even there :wink:


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## dead eye dick (Sep 1, 2004)

im still trying too figure this 4 aside debate we shoot 4 aside here in colorado all the time and i have never once heard someone complain about the format you just go at your own pace , it sounds like the people who have a problem with it are having problems understanding which target to shoot and where their arrows go that part of the game , thats what makes field so hard their is a lot of mental to it besides shooting it really makes you appreciate what jesse did.


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## Brown Hornet (Aug 8, 2002)

brtesite said:


> Ed,You used the word Nazis again. you haven't a clue of what that word means. It very offensive. These guys took vacation so every one could shoot a nationals & you demean them.
> May be the range captain you had was agressive, but you just smeared all of them & I know that is not is not true. You say this was not a bashing one, but they are taking it that way. You could have come to me with the complaint & I would have taken care of it. I was there all day.
> I would say that every one I spoke to loved the format. Even on here I don't think there are 20 people complaining . I may be wrong.
> Some of you say that you lost points. I watched the so called primadonnas (pros) shoot.They shot 4 across never *****ed about any thing. Jesse shot clean, the rest almost did. I think they get to much of a bad rap some times.
> ...


Mike I truly think some of you are reading into what I meant this thread to be.....and what some are saying 

Take out the comments by the people that weren't there that have kind of started to turn the thread.:zip: and you have a constructive thread.

I understand what Ed is saying....and knowing Ed as I do....I don't think he really meant any harm in his comments.....bad choice of words....sure. But we have all done that before.....

You and I both know the # of people that I talked to....and that I hang with Pros and Joes.......no I didn't have a problem shooting 4 wide....and most didn't but some did. Was it enough to REALLY complain about. No not really....even bringing it up I didn't really think of it as a complaint. Truly didn't 

It was more of how it was presented....or enforced or urged more by some then others that caused an issue. Or when there was a back up.... like there was on the course the FS men shot on Thurs....my group started on #11 or 12. When we got to # 1 there was a backup. It wasn't because of anyone being slow...even though my group had the shooter that araz2114 was referring to earlier :wink: It was because # 1 was not a target that should have been shot 4 wide. There was a target between my group and the group that was on the stake when I came up the hill.....when we got on the stake....there were 3 groups waiting.

After a few let downs.....and all of us shooting....we go to the next target. When we got to the stake. Guess who was with us.....and watched us shoot the next 2 targets? It wasn't Randy Walk I'll tell you that :wink: We weren't the ones being slow......and we weren't told to shoot 4 wide because we were on a fan and were shooting that way anyway.....but the hurry up feeling was there 

On Wed when my group 4 or 5 targets left....we got a massive wave of shooters coming by us...Jarlicker and Rattleman were among those groups.....they made comments to ME about being "herded"....why would I say anything....we weren't bothered all day. 

I heard the same thing from people on other courses....I guess they felt it was just the way it was....or that they were the only ones....who knows :noidea:

Nobody is NOT greatfull for the jobs done....I sure am not....but I think it was more of a miss communication 

Either way....this is an OPEN discussion....nothing more. Getting all pissed off isn't going to do anything.... :wink:


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## Brown Hornet (Aug 8, 2002)

dead eye dick said:


> im still trying too figure this 4 aside debate we shoot 4 aside here in colorado all the time and i have never once heard someone complain about the format you just go at your own pace , it sounds like the people who have a problem with it are having problems understanding which target to shoot and where their arrows go that part of the game , thats what makes field so hard their is a lot of mental to it besides shooting it really makes you appreciate what jesse did.


It's pretty easy to understand.....

You may shoot 4 wide out your way....but obviously from the people posting in this thread and the people that haven't that a lot of us that were there talked to at Nationals....

THEY DON'T.....I have probably shot 20+ ranges in the past 3 years...and this was probably the 2nd range that I have EVER seen that all targets for the most part could be shot 4 wide.....

I have seen a good number of pics from ranges out your way....it's do able....not so in other places....heck all the pics I have on my computer from Darrington and Yankton didn't have people shooting 4 wide....

It's pretty obvious to me anyway that not all groups were handled the same way....and like I said previously....if you have SOME groups getting pushed....they were running into groups that weren't being pushed......

it isn't that hard to figure out that there are gonna be some upset people when their groups are being told to shoot 4 wide and other groups aren't....when there are waiting groups....and they roll up on a target with a group shooting 2 wide or even 4 wide....the group on the stake is going to feel pushed. PERIOD

Everyone wasn't on the same page.....YES there was an announcement in the morning.....but I know for one that you couldn't hear it very well AT ALL. I was sitting right there 3 of the 5 days.....the 4th day I was in the grass next to were they were being made and couldn't here anything after the Anthem....the 5th day...Sun I never left the practice range because I knew how things needed to be and it was pouring rain :wink:

YES there was a mention of it in the handout.....it was already posted.....it doesn't say SHOOT 4 WIDE...

that is the reason that I posted this thread in the first place....MAKE THINGS CLEAR......just like the thread Sticky started...there is always room for someone to interpret things different then intended.....

Hell I know of a ruling made that would have been different if the wording had been different when it was presented to the official different :zip:


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## Jbird (May 21, 2002)

*Seems Simple to Me*

Since there were no complaints about anything else and everyone loved the ranges and the great people who put on this shoot, the fix is easy. Announce the time the cards need to be turned in by and leave the the groups alone to
decide when and if they want to shoot four across. We shot mostly 2 up and occasionally shot four up. There is no need to put the big rush on everyone when there isn't a problem with backups. So next year when it is time for the Nationals, use a little common sense instead of creating a controversy when it isn't necessary. The helpers only did as they were told and that can be fixed next year. I would hate for this little hickup to affect the way the Mechanicsburg club views the experience and their desire to permanently join the rotation. As for my family's three paid entrants we thought the shoot was fantastic.

Jbird


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## BOWGOD (Aug 11, 2004)

Jbird said:


> Since there were no complaints about anything else and everyone loved the ranges and the great people who put on this shoot, the fix is easy. Announce the time the cards need to be turned in by and leave the the groups alone to
> decide when and if they want to shoot four across. We shot mostly 2 up and occasionally shot four up. There is no need to put the big rush on everyone when there isn't a problem with backups. So next year when it is time for the Nationals, use a little common sense instead of creating a controversy when it isn't necessary. The helpers only did as they were told and that can be fixed next year. I would hate for this little hickup to affect the way the Mechanicsburg club views the experience and their desire to permanently join the rotation. As for my family's three paid entrants we thought the shoot was fantastic.
> 
> Jbird




in a perfect world that is exactly what would happen.


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## dead eye dick (Sep 1, 2004)

since i could not attend the shoot i will , defer to you on your thoughts you are obviously upset , so i assume you have good reason , it just gets old on here when people take shots at the nfaa people they really try to do a good job for us , i do not think they would on do a bad job if given the choice, their intentions seem good


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## BOWGOD (Aug 11, 2004)

dead eye dick said:


> since i could not attend the shoot i will , defer to you on your thoughts you are obviously upset , so i assume you have good reason , it just gets old on here when people take shots at the nfaa people they really try to do a good job for us , i do not think they would on do a bad job if given the choice, their intentions seem good


Your point is understood, but in reality here nobody is taking shots at anyone. The point of the thread is constructive critisizim. I'm sure you have read time and time again that we all pretty much agree it was a very well ran shoot, and we are all greatful of that. The only issue (as small as it may be) was the feeling rushed through. Most of us are not used to shooting at that pace.
I understand the point was it was thought that it would save a bundle of time, but that has proven to not be the case at most it may have saved 1/2 an hour.

No one is taking shots at anyone, just giving suggestions, and reasons on how to make the next experience more enjoyable.


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## dead eye dick (Sep 1, 2004)

yep points well taken , but their is that one idiot on here calling people range nazis he obviously isnt old enough to realize you shouldnt throw that around at people it can be very offensive to some , but it seem to me most shoots hold some surprises and the ones who adapt the fastest to them usually are the winners i hope you can find a way of getting this corrected but i really think your beating a dead [nfaa] horse


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## Brown Hornet (Aug 8, 2002)

dead eye dick said:


> since i could not attend the shoot i will , defer to you on your thoughts you are obviously upset , so i assume you have good reason , it just gets old on here when people take shots at the nfaa people they really try to do a good job for us , i do not think they would on do a bad job if given the choice, their intentions seem good


Not upset...and nothing to defer to...

But the thing is nobody is saying that anyone did a bad job....at least I am not saying that or trying to imply that. 

But nothing....and I mean nothing is perfect....so if we can't talk about ways to get things tweaked so that things are even better and smoother...how can we run shoots or anything for that matter so they are even better?

I had no problem shooting 4 wide....but I did feel the effects of my group being pushed by others that were told to shoot 4 wide no matter what or that thought they had to do so. 

and that is why I started this thread


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## BOWGOD (Aug 11, 2004)

dead eye dick said:


> yep points well taken , but their is that one idiot on here calling people range nazis he obviously isnt old enough to realize you shouldnt throw that around at people it can be very offensive to some , but it seem to me most shoots hold some surprises and the ones who adapt the fastest to them usually are the winners i hope you can find a way of getting this corrected but i really think your beating a dead [nfaa] horse




Yeah, but is is just as unfair to compromise the opinions of many for the remarks of one, as it is to go after the entire officiating group for the actions of one.


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## alphabet (Aug 1, 2004)

I'd like to thank everyone at Mechanicsburg for a wonderfully run event. The cooks who kept us fed to the guys parking cars and all the other volunteers setting up ranges and changing targets who made it a success.

For the four wide or two wide it doesn't matter. If the footing was really bad or someone had another issue they waited and moved down a little. I shoot slow and let down and i can remember a few times the group behind me caught up but not for long but I was never pushed by anyone on the range or felt pressured to hurry up. 

If anyone was forced to shoot four wide and they had a problem why didn't you bring it up to the NFAA on that day. It was in archery magazine a couple times that the shooting lanes are wide enough to accommodate all 4 archery at one time so it should not have been a surprise.

As far as spotting and shooting wrong targets. It's your fault. you can't expect everyone to do everything for you. I shot the wrong target on Wed and learned a lesson from it. If you cant see your arrows move over and get a different view. If your not sure which target to shoot ask. When the groups i shot in came to a four target face we reminded each other about which target to shoot.

For the guy who doesn't want anyone talking please stay home. You are only killing the fun for everyone else and pushing away new archers. A bad day on a range is waaaayyy better then the best day at work.

I do like the flight system after all scores are done. If someone shoots their best and gets a medal because of the flight cut good for them but I can't stand the sandbagger who rips off that guy.

I, being from the east, would like to see Nat's kept here. The west has Vegas and Redding, SD got our Atlantic City shoot, it would be nice to keep it in the east but that's just my opinion.


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## Cecil (Mar 10, 2003)

*4 across*

I actually enjoyed shooting 4 across. It left the pace of shooting up to the group. 

In the groups I shot with, we established before we started that we are not in a race. Just because we were shooting 4 across didn't mean we had to rush our shots. We spotted for each other on every shot. Every target with multiple faces (even the 50 cm faces) we made sure that everyone knew which target they were shooting BEFORE we started. 

As long as the pace of shooting is not causing back-ups, I could care less if groups were shooting 4 across, 2x2 or one at a time. I prefer the 4 across because as I stated above, it allowed the pace of shooting within our group to be dicated by our group. Some targets we shot quick. Some not so quick. Some were downright slow. 

Of all the Nationals I have been to, I enjoyed this one the most. All the guys I shot with were great, we had a great time BSing on the course. and even a better time BSing with a beer when we were done. :darkbeer:

Anyway, these are my thoughts. Some will, some will disagree. I guess I'm Rodney Dangerfield to your Ted Knight.


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## Guest (Aug 1, 2009)

Well I didn't really care either way but even with 4 up we still had back ups sometimes 4 groups deep, one the first day I shot with the eventual winner Brad Baker I believe and we shot 2 up and still had to wait, they tried to rush us to shoot 4 up and we said we wait shooting 2 up so why shoot 4 up they said just shoot 4 up and push the next group, whats the hurry? we are there for 5 days was there extra points to be had if we got off the the course at 1 instead of 2:30???. All in all it was a well run shoot and will be back either way


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## CHPro (May 21, 2002)

> If you can complete a round within the time limit and shoot two at a time, what is the problem? If you shoot two across and are not creating a back-up behind, what is the problem?


No problem, but I can say with near certainty, I don't recall getting off the ranges in Yankton last year within even an hour of what we finished up in at Mechanicsburg this year.....and I felt no more rushed this year than I did last year . Guess its just me and a few others that prefer the 4-across format, but then I'm used to shooting by myself and having to spot my own arrows, etc., so shooting 4 across wasn't that much of a change for me . I know I appreciated the extra hour, did give me a chance to drive to Hershey one of the days, hit the go-karts w/ my son one of the other days, etc.. When I'm on the range I'm there to shoot. If I can get done, not feel rushed and gain an extra hour to do other fun things all the better. I don't live close enough to you guys on the East coast to take a short weekend jaunt to some of those places within your driving distance...nice to see some of the countryside and sights in addition to shooting...what makes the tournaments fun for me.

Do agree though, may be nice to suggest the range captains only need to move groups along if they are not shooting per the tournament director's directions (which was to shoot 4 across whenever possible) and to move groups along if they were taking too long looking for lost arrows. Anyone shooting field knows there will be back-up spots (i.e. pretty much every walk-up, any long targets like a 65yd, and spots where footing is not flat and equal across the lanes) which no amount of "rushing" of groups will help overcome.

Just a couple other quick side comments, regarding ranking cards (i.e. handicap cards), not all states use that system for their field tournaments so I see an inherent problem requiring filled in cards to establish a ranking for a national tournament. 

Someone also mentioned:



> The Pros are treated differantly than the rest of the shooters
> Is this because they get no awards ???
> Or is it because they are already ranked ??
> 
> I also assume that the top pros shot together(with their peers) on the first day


Hard not to have some of the top pros shoot together....there were only something like 27 of us, odds are a couple top guys did get paired together. But I can say with some degree of certainty, first day grouping even in the Pro division was randomly assigned and not all the top dogs got to shoot with just the top dogs. How else could you explain my getting paired up with the likes of Jason C, Kendall and Mike Anderson the first day, lol 

Lastly, I would once again like to take a moment to thank the volunteers who worked so hard at the Nationals. I know it takes great deal of time and work to run a good shoot. You guys did a great job, imo. Those field courses in Mechanicsburg were the most beautifully laid out, groomed field courses I have ever had the pleasure of shooting in my 20+ years shooting field archery. Looking forward to making the trek out your direction again in a few years........and hope to get done early enough again each day to get out and enjoy the rest of PA after the day's shooting is complete .

>>--------->


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## pennysdad (Sep 26, 2004)

*I agree*



C Doyle 88 said:


> Here is the problem----
> If these are truely the National Championships-----
> Someone that can't hit the target butt doesn't need to be there
> 
> ...


I have to agree with Cecil here, very well put! however I doubt if the "circus "will ever end. That would be way to much money lost, at first. I believe it would great for the sport in the long haul. Unfortunalely it's all about the Bot. line dollar, right now, today!


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## Moparmatty (Jun 23, 2003)

Brown Hornet said:


> Hell I know of a ruling made that would have been different if the wording had been different when it was presented to the official different :zip:


Hey....... It's not my fault the "Official" didn't stick around long enough to give him the full story. LMAO!!!!!!

:chortle:


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## GOT LUCKY (Apr 30, 2005)

dead eye dick said:


> yep points well taken , but their is that one idiot on here calling people range nazis he obviously isnt old enough to realize you shouldnt throw that around at people it can be very offensive to some , but it seem to me most shoots hold some surprises and the ones who adapt the fastest to them usually are the winners i hope you can find a way of getting this corrected but i really think your beating a dead [nfaa] horse


*As much as most did not take offense to the NAZI comment and understood it's well meant usage in the "herding along"....for others it is a rememberence of horrible times during WWII.

Comments have been made and apologies have been offered........

I have asked Sticky to add that "N" word to the "Dirty 4 Letter Word List" so it can't be used again as the disagreement of its usage continues and is a distraction in this thread.....

Now back to the 2UP or 4WIDE discussion....*

.


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## Unclegus (May 27, 2003)

pennysdad said:


> I have to agree with Cecil here, very well put! however I doubt if the "circus "will ever end. That would be way to much money lost, at first. I believe it would great for the sport in the long haul. Unfortunalely it's all about the Bot. line dollar, right now, today!



I'm just another clown in the circus and this is Just another part of the elitist train of thought and the continuing mystery of the secret society of field archery that will keep field in the dark ages. Right now, we probably do less to promote field than the national tiddly wink association does to promote it's sport. AT does more for field than the NFAA.. Anyone that goes to a nationals for the first time and doesn't fall in love with field definitely has something wrong with them, and you want to eliminate them???? We need more shooters, not less. Everyone has to start somewhere. We have little field archery here in WV, and if it weren't for the sec and nats, I would have already cleaned up my boat and sold my bows... If you start excluding shooters from the nats, where do you draw the line? And that's my opinion.....


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## brtesite (May 24, 2002)

BOWGOD said:


> Your point is understood, but in reality here nobody is taking shots at anyone. The point of the thread is constructive critisizim. I'm sure you have read time and time again that we all pretty much agree it was a very well ran shoot, and we are all greatful of that. The only issue (as small as it may be) was the feeling rushed through. Most of us are not used to shooting at that pace.
> I understand the point was it was thought that it would save a bundle of time, but that has proven to not be the case at most it may have saved 1/2 an hour.
> 
> No one is taking shots at anyone, just giving suggestions, and reasons on how to make the next experience more enjoyable.


 just to put the record straight, every one talks about only saving 1/2 hour. I'll give one example that comes to mind . First day , joe ,Zenarch releases, turned in his cards @ 12;30 some at 2:30. thats 2 hours.

I think that this has gone on long enough, what we had , we had. It's over as far as I'm concerned.


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## FS560 (May 22, 2002)

BOWGOD said:


> Jim,
> The arrow spotting is a courtesy for the most part. When you have 4 guys shooting at the same target, and 3 of the 4 are using the same color nocks it it easy to loose your arrows in the mix. Having someone watch as they are going in the target makes it much easier to know where we are hitting.
> I have one of the best pair of optics on the market, and there were definately targets where I could not find the arrow I just shot.
> I know this issue cost quite a few people points that could otherwise have been saved.
> ...


Everything you said is correct and I have to agree. I simply prefer to spot my own arrows and do spot for others. I do not shoot anywhere near as well as I used to be able to, but even then, I preferred to spot my own and avoid the distraction. Even when I could shoot in the low 50s (new target), I really looked for exceptions, when spotting my own, instead of being concerned where in the x or just out of the x it might be.

At that time, I could sight a bow in to hit tight x rings on flat ground on tape measured targets and I knew what the bow and I could do on uphill, sidehill, and downhill. I carried a tapered block of balsa wood to adjust my lower foot on bad standing position shots.

Now, I cannot shoot well enough (bow is rock steady, the target moves around too much) to sight in tightly, so I use a program. Also I have no experience with the tiny arrows, maybe I would not be able to see them at all. I do feel that the tiny arrows are not advised for shooters under 550 and maybe not even then in a place like Mechanicsburg.

In any event, I could be required to stand summarily corrected, but I would need more evidence.

NOW, with all that diatribe out of the way and except for my preference for 4 up, I restate that I do not speed up my shooting just because it is 4 up. Usually 4 up shooters still shoot one at a time.

I really wanted to go to Mechanicsburg but, while working in Gulfport, MS right now with periodic visits home to Richmond, it was just too far to make the shoot.

As I stated before, there may have been a possibility of 32 or more groups to a range and everyone would have needed to speed up just a little (perhaps, perhaps not).

It would not have been practical to wait until the morning of the first round to instruct the range workers and discuss the "what if" alternatives. Since the massive number of shooters did not appear, it appears that some of the range workers were able to analyze the situation, think on their feet, and not harass archers needlessly.

I any event, we need to organize the nationals to be able to ACCOMODATE the archers so they can have fun, instead of trying to intimidate them to speed through the round. This is supposed to be fun. I agree with everyone on that. I have always enjoyed the socializing and bs on the range. Some tournament promoters seem to think otherwise and that we should cater to them instead of the other way around.


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## John49 (Feb 25, 2006)

I think a true champion can shoot on any course and in any manner that is required. I'm sure someone could say that he or she had to start on the 80 yd walk-up or the 30 yarder or a downhill or sidehill lie. If they say shoot 4 wide or 2 wide, just do it. Those are the local rules, thats why there are home games and away games. Adjust and have fun, seems simple to me.


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## Unclegus (May 27, 2003)

brtesite said:


> just to put the record straight, every one talks about only saving 1/2 hour. I'll give one example that comes to mind . First day , joe ,Zenarch releases, turned in his cards @ 12;30 some at 2:30. thats 2 hours.
> 
> I think that this has gone on long enough, what we had , we had. It's over as far as I'm concerned.



Getting finished and turning your cards in is two entirely different things...I agree...It's over...Time to let it go, I just hope it's NOT forgotten by the powers that be.


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## FS560 (May 22, 2002)

brtesite said:


> just to put the record straight, every one talks about only saving 1/2 hour. I'll give one example that comes to mind . First day , joe ,Zenarch releases, turned in his cards @ 12;30 some at 2:30. thats 2 hours.



So! And your point is?

I have read this whole thing and commented twice.



It seems to me that the Tournament Director, in an attempt to please the bookeepers, may have given strict instructions to the range workers to hurry people along.

Then, SOME of the range workers, wanting to please the Tournament Director more than the paying customers, rushed groups along needlessly.

This still seems to come under the heading of "who is the vendor and who is the paying customer".

Sometimes we may forget that, in our exuberance to please the wrong master. The master should be the paying customer. If the paying customer does not have a good time at a national championship, he may not come back, even though he did not have any chance to win, place, or show. He was there for fun.

Some have stated that they had less fun because of being rushed. We should address this, perhaps by limiting the Tournament Director's power.


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## mdbowhunter (Oct 22, 2002)

Unclegus said:


> I'm just another clown in the circus and this is Just another part of the elitist train of thought and the continuing mystery of the secret society of field archery that will keep field in the dark ages. Right now, we probably do less to promote field than the national tiddly wink association does to promote it's sport. AT does more for field than the NFAA.. Anyone that goes to a nationals for the first time and doesn't fall in love with field definitely has something wrong with them, and you want to eliminate them???? We need more shooters, not less. Everyone has to start somewhere. We have little field archery here in WV, and if it weren't for the sec and nats, I would have already cleaned up my boat and sold my bows... If you start excluding shooters from the nats, where do you draw the line? And that's my opinion.....


*EXACTLY!* Now...lets get back to Hornet's reason for starting this thread.......:wink:


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## FS560 (May 22, 2002)

Unclegus said:


> I just hope it's NOT forgotten by the powers that be.


I will do what I can to see that it is not, but I fear that entirely too many directors may not understand the points I just made.


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## barebowstixx (Feb 8, 2008)

GOT LUCKY said:


> *
> I like it!!!.....a little "3-D" challenge built in might bring more of the 3-Ders over to try Field....Great way to grow interest and membership....
> 
> Now as far as the 4WIDE shooting....I believe it tested the "what if we had 800-1,000 shooters" theory as could we handle that many at one time and still get off the range before dark. It appears that shooting 4WIDE would not help as it still took about the same amount of time as 2UP...
> ...


Please...No 3D


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## barebowstixx (Feb 8, 2008)

John49 said:


> " It's the traditional shooters going on easter egg hunts for arrows and the string walking. Put these groups starting behind everyone else and then let them stew in their own juice."------ I suppose you never missed a target. Traditional shooters are the real archers. Lets take away all your fancy gadgets and scopes and see if you hit the target every time. Statements like you just made are what gives the NFAA a bad name.


I Agree..........


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## Jbird (May 21, 2002)

*Sorry for confusing the issue by stating the Facts*

Barebow shooters and string walkers do slow things down. They have just as much right to play their game as anyone. All I was suggesting was to put them at the end of the groups to prevent stack ups. If that hurts your feelings I'm sorry. It is what it is.
Jbird


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## brtesite (May 24, 2002)

FS560 said:


> So! And your point is?
> 
> I have read this whole thing and commented twice.
> 
> ...




hAVE AT IT


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## John49 (Feb 25, 2006)

Jbird said:


> Barebow shooters and string walkers do slow things down. They have just as much right to play their game as anyone. All I was suggesting was to put them at the end of the groups to prevent stack ups. If that hurts your feelings I'm sorry. It is what it is.
> Jbird


It doesn't bother me one bit to be at the end, but where is the end when its a shotgun start with a group on every target? Personally, I would rather be on a separate course with all trad shooters, but that isn't always possible. I would agree that looking for arrows can slow things down, but one has to have enough sense to give it up when another group is waiting. Maybe not all do. Have you ever been caught behind someone looking for an expensive carbon arrow? I have and I don't mean they are all trad shooters either. I can tell you one thing though, the longest field round I ever shot was the day I shot with three unlimited compounders. They were slow and deliberate with every shot. Thats cool though, everyone has their own pace. In this game, we all have to play at the slowest shooter's pace. In golf, slower players let the faster ones through, why not in field archery?


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## BOWGOD (Aug 11, 2004)

:


FS560 said:


> So! And your point is?
> 
> I have read this whole thing and commented twice.
> 
> ...



:set1_applaud:

Someone finally hit the nail on the head.
I think the whole point of this thread was to point out the one, and only thing that may be changed to make the next trip more enjoyable for all. After all we underclassmen (90% of the field) are just paying to have fun, so why not give us what we paid for. They run it that way everywhere else Nat's is held PA should be no different.


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## montigre (Oct 13, 2008)

John49 said:


> It doesn't bother me one bit to be at the end, but where is the end when its a shotgun start with a group on every target? Personally, I would rather be on a separate course with all trad shooters, but that isn't always possible. I would agree that looking for arrows can slow things down, but one has to have enough sense to give it up when another group is waiting. Maybe not all do. Have you ever been caught behind someone looking for an expensive carbon arrow? I have and I don't mean they are all trad shooters either. I can tell you one thing though, the longest field round I ever shot was the day I shot with three unlimited compounders. They were slow and deliberate with every shot. Thats cool though, everyone has their own pace. In this game, we all have to play at the slowest shooter's pace. In golf, slower players let the faster ones through, why not in field archery?


Actually, as I understand it, this is a part of the field archery game. Slower archers for whatever reason should always ask the group(s) behind them if they'd like to shoot through if they're being held up--just basic courtesy. 

I have also gone back to a target after the round to retrieve a lost arrow so as not to hold up the groups behind me and always carry enough spare arrows to make it through several times over. Again, courtesy.


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## Brown Hornet (Aug 8, 2002)

montigre said:


> Actually, as I understand it, this is a part of the field archery game. Slower archers for whatever reason should always ask the group(s) behind them if they'd like to shoot through if they're being held up--just basic courtesy.
> 
> I have also gone back to a target after the round to retrieve a lost arrow so as not to hold up the groups behind me and always carry enough spare arrows to make it through several times over. Again, courtesy.


You mean like the rules state :wink:


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## 6X60 (Jan 5, 2009)

FS560 said:


> So! And your point is?
> 
> I have read this whole thing and commented twice.
> 
> ...


Very well said.

I've felt many times at tournaments...large and small...that I, as a shooter, was nothing more than an inconvenience.


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## Unclegus (May 27, 2003)

Very short, eloquent, and to the very heart of the matter. Trust me, you are NOT alone......


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## Mr. Black Magic (Sep 13, 2007)

Brown Hornet said:


> Oh wait....I have more But this is just something that I noticed about #s from the shoot. I have done some adding already :wink:
> 
> Now we know that the #s this year weren't what they should have been simply because the ASA decided to hold the Classic the same week....which was just plane stupid. There were a lot of people that shoot both field and 3D that had to make a choice. It hurt both orgs bad.
> 
> ...


Well there O' Winged Sting Bug. If we look real real close you can see the only site that had Consistent drawing power was ...................Watkins Glen. That is worth thinking about.

As for the rest, 2 up 4 abreast, line astern, don't really care, but I have to agree with the Field Man and think a time limit is essential and enforcement is paramount.

"It's my time and I paid for it" is the attitude that murdered the public golf course and it would be a crying shame to have that kind of slow play find it's way into archery. Nothing makes you cold and tense like waiting and waiting and waiting to get on target. Every shooting sport has a time limit and I wish to heaven Archery would clue in and make it a part of the sport. Time is part of the skill factor and we should recognize it.

As for limiting the tournament directors power, great idea, have him halt the whole damn affair to try and get an answer out of YanktonExec on every issue, that'll speed things up


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## Mr. Black Magic (Sep 13, 2007)

GOT LUCKY said:


> *Very well stated....Thank You......
> 
> I have questioned why in the member's efforts to grow and improve the NFAA after being told over and over again "it's your ORG." .....we seem to meet such ""pissamissin'"" (yeah...I spelled it that way for a reason :wink when we attempt to offer solutions to identified issues.
> 
> ...


I'll take a hit of those Red Shoes:wink: You know where to send the pics:becky:


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## PET (May 21, 2003)

About 4 shooting lanes was not always fair. On the yellow course, water and mud made it hard to have 4 lanes shooting on Sunday. On those we shot 2 and 2 and got called on by the officials. Other times the 2 middle lanes had flat footing and outside was angled. Where is this fair for the 4 shooters. It's not... It should have been only when all 4 lanes were the same to shoot 4 across and to the groups discression if they wanted to shoot 2 and 2 on those targets. 
Another was if you shoot then glass your shot x 4 arrows takes about the same if 2 shoot and 2 spot then switch. 
You should look at the few who let down then wait 60 - 90 seconds to start shot routine just to let down again....Put a time limit on to shoot 4 arrows.
I know you can't have a stop watch out their but have officials randomly check groups for slow play like they do on golf courses. 
Having said this I thought this was a good tournament and their club did a fine job overall.


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## 600 60X (Mar 8, 2004)

*4 wide shooting???*

I myself liked the 4 wide shooting, because it kept the shoot flowing along nicely. I never once felt rushed. You definitely get of the course hours earlier shooting 4 wide then shooting 2 wide. I never attended a outdoor nationals at the other current sites but from the conversation in my groups there isn't very much to do at the other locations. Here in PA there is a ton of family things to do, after your done shooting. If you have a wife and kids with you that don't shoot, their is other non-archery thing to do with them after your done. 
On the pro courses we shot almost every target 4 wide with very few footing exceptions, i didn't hear any complaints, and yes we did spot for each other every shot. The biggest complaint I heard was when we were sitting at the target waiting in a line of groups 4 deep.

Jason Carbaugh


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## Brown Hornet (Aug 8, 2002)

By the way Jason.....thanks for the ride off the course on Tues :wink: :darkbeer:


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## Moparmatty (Jun 23, 2003)

Brown Hornet said:


> By the way Jason.....thanks for the ride off the course on Tues :wink: :darkbeer:


The ride off the course on Tuesday was great! Thanks very much. :thumb: :thumb:


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## dead eye dick (Sep 1, 2004)

Hey dont be taking shots at us barebow shooters most of the ones i know shoot faster than sighted folk i shot with 2 fellows just today with scopes and releases id think mold was growing on the trees aroung me it took so long for them to decide how to shoot the 3d target


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## Mr. Black Magic (Sep 13, 2007)

dead eye dick said:


> Hey dont be taking shots at us barebow shooters most of the ones i know shoot faster than sighted folk i shot with 2 fellows just today with scopes and releases id think mold was growing on the trees aroung me it took so long for them to decide how to shoot the 3d target




Funny how NASCAR can repair an entire car in the pits in less time than it takes some to put a friggin pin on a target


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## 60Xbulldog60X (Mar 12, 2005)

This thread proves that no matter what any of us do to try to make everyone comfy and feel welcome, it just can't possibly be done. There is absolutely no way to please everyone involved. This was my fourth Outdoor Nationals and the third different location. This was by far the most organized and best run Nationals that I have been to so far. I was asked by one of the members of the club if I had seen anything that could be improved upon. I told him that the place was awesome and that I loved the place. I also told him that this was not a complaint but wrather something to think about and that I thought there could be just a few more trash cans around the club house and tent area. My hat is off to all of the volunteers and members of Mechanicsburg for holding such a great tournament. I think they all did an outstanding job and the hospitality was awesome. You can bet that I'll be going back to Mechanicsburg to shoot, if they'll have me??

Take care,

Kendall


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## Moparmatty (Jun 23, 2003)

60Xbulldog60X said:


> This thread proves that no matter what any of us do to try to make everyone comfy and feel welcome, it just can't possibly be done. There is absolutely no way to please everyone involved. This was my fourth Outdoor Nationals and the third different location. This was by far the most organized and best run Nationals that I have been to so far. I was asked by one of the members of the club if I had seen anything that could be improved upon. I told him that the place was awesome and that I loved the place. I also told him that this was not a complaint but wrather something to think about and that I thought there could be just a few more trash cans around the club house and tent area. My hat is off to all of the volunteers and members of Mechanicsburg for holding such a great tournament. I think they all did an outstanding job and the hospitality was awesome. You can bet that I'll be going back to Mechanicsburg to shoot, if they'll have me??
> 
> Take care,
> 
> Kendall


Well said Kendall.

:thumb:


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## DFA (Dec 30, 2002)

60Xbulldog60X said:


> This thread proves that no matter what any of us do to try to make everyone comfy and feel welcome, it just can't possibly be done. There is absolutely no way to please everyone involved. This was my fourth Outdoor Nationals and the third different location. This was by far the most organized and best run Nationals that I have been to so far. I was asked by one of the members of the club if I had seen anything that could be improved upon. I told him that the place was awesome and that I loved the place. I also told him that this was not a complaint but wrather something to think about and that I thought there could be just a few more trash cans around the club house and tent area. My hat is off to all of the volunteers and members of Mechanicsburg for holding such a great tournament. I think they all did an outstanding job and the hospitality was awesome. You can bet that I'll be going back to Mechanicsburg to shoot, if they'll have me??
> 
> Take care,
> 
> Kendall


Exactly my sentiments also,
I've been shooting the Nationals since 1975, not all of them but over half, this year's was one of the best. I go to shoot and have a good time. The ranges were fantastic and the people were great, very friendly and helpful.
I'll be back for sure,
DFA


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## andy1996 (Feb 15, 2004)

Hey Brown or Rock Monkey, was the 4 wide rule strictly enforced with the pro shooters? I know they like to take their time and get the most from their GP Sweet Seats--heck I know I like to sit down and take a quick breather from time to time during a field round. By the way I shot NW Marked 3D Sectionals at Darrington last weekend and it was is great shape. The course WILL be ready for 2010 but you will be lucky to shoot 2 wide on some targets! It is a beautiful course though!


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## Brown Hornet (Aug 8, 2002)

andy1996 said:


> Hey Brown or Rock Monkey, was the 4 wide rule strictly enforced with the pro shooters? I know they like to take their time and get the most from their GP Sweet Seats--heck I know I like to sit down and take a quick breather from time to time during a field round. By the way I shot NW Marked 3D Sectionals at Darrington last weekend and it was is great shape. The course WILL be ready for 2010 but you will be lucky to shoot 2 wide on some targets! It is a beautiful course though!


I haven't made it out of the kiddie pool yet 

But my roomie did.....Hinky....he was and the other Pros I usually talk to were off the range within a few minutes of me every day so I would assume so.


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## nanayak (Dec 6, 2008)

60Xbulldog60X said:


> This thread proves that no matter what any of us do to try to make everyone comfy and feel welcome, it just can't possibly be done. There is absolutely no way to please everyone involved. This was my fourth Outdoor Nationals and the third different location. This was by far the most organized and best run Nationals that I have been to so far. I was asked by one of the members of the club if I had seen anything that could be improved upon. I told him that the place was awesome and that I loved the place. I also told him that this was not a complaint but wrather something to think about and that I thought there could be just a few more trash cans around the club house and tent area. My hat is off to all of the volunteers and members of Mechanicsburg for holding such a great tournament. I think they all did an outstanding job and the hospitality was awesome. You can bet that I'll be going back to Mechanicsburg to shoot, if they'll have me??
> 
> Take care,
> 
> Kendall


Couldn't have said it any better.... :thumb:


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## rock monkey (Dec 28, 2002)

sorry, didnt get to make this one even tho it was reasonably close to home for me. i spent all my play money in june hangin out with the likes of you and kjwhsfd all weekend 




andy1996 said:


> Hey Brown or Rock Monkey, was the 4 wide rule strictly enforced with the pro shooters? I know they like to take their time and get the most from their GP Sweet Seats--heck I know I like to sit down and take a quick breather from time to time during a field round. By the way I shot NW Marked 3D Sectionals at Darrington last weekend and it was is great shape. The course WILL be ready for 2010 but you will be lucky to shoot 2 wide on some targets! It is a beautiful course though!


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## 600 60X (Mar 8, 2004)

*Pros???*

All the mens freestyle pros that i was around shot 4 across at 95% of the targets just a few footing exceptions

your welcome for the rides i hope you had a great time shooting

Jason Carbaugh


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## Bees (Jan 28, 2003)

Mr. Black Magic said:


> Funny how NASCAR can repair an entire car in the pits in less time than it takes some to put a friggin pin on a target


 Jeff Gorden hired some boys from the hood for his pit crew. They had his tires off his race car in 5 seconds. 30 seconds later they had the car painted and sold to Tony Stwert as his back up car. about the same time as a let down in archery I would suppose.


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## 6X60 (Jan 5, 2009)

60Xbulldog60X said:


> This thread proves that no matter what any of us do to try to make everyone comfy and feel welcome, it just can't possibly be done. There is absolutely no way to please everyone involved. This was my fourth Outdoor Nationals and the third different location. This was by far the most organized and best run Nationals that I have been to so far. I was asked by one of the members of the club if I had seen anything that could be improved upon. I told him that the place was awesome and that I loved the place. I also told him that this was not a complaint but wrather something to think about and that I thought there could be just a few more trash cans around the club house and tent area. My hat is off to all of the volunteers and members of Mechanicsburg for holding such a great tournament. I think they all did an outstanding job and the hospitality was awesome. You can bet that I'll be going back to Mechanicsburg to shoot, if they'll have me??
> 
> Take care,
> 
> Kendall


I see it a little differently.

I think this thread proves that no matter how great something is there is always room for improvment.

I don't think that Mike or the NFAA or the people of Mechanicsburg had anything but the best of intentions and were only doing what they thought was in the best interest of the shooters. Unfortunately, maybe for some, it didn't quite work out that way.

Why is that any reason for anyone to get all defensive and argumentative?

We learn, we move on, we get better.

One thing that I do believe with my whole heart is that if the NFAA is going to grow and field archery stop it's decline then we all, membership and officers alike. need to take every idea and every complaint seriously and constantly look to improve.

I believe that the 4 wide shooting was an honest effort to improve the game. I don't think I would have liked it had I been there but I can't fault them for trying something. I can fault them for not listening and taking the comments of those that didn't like it seriously.

Open and honest discussion is the only way to grow the game.


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## Mr. Black Magic (Sep 13, 2007)

Bees said:


> Jeff Gorden hired some boys from the hood for his pit crew. They had his tires off his race car in 5 seconds. 30 seconds later they had the car painted and sold to Tony Stwert as his back up car. about the same time as a let down in archery I would suppose.


 Good thing he didn't hire the Renault Formula One team, the car would have gone to Tony minus a wheel


Maybe the nationals should become an endurance event. Keep going round and round for 24 hours and the highest score wins, period. No problem with the slow play boys then, you just lap em!:wink:


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## Scott.Barrett (Oct 26, 2008)

BOWGOD said:


> Jim,
> The arrow spotting is a courtesy for the most part. When you have 4 guys shooting at the same target, and 3 of the 4 are using the same color nocks it it easy to loose your arrows in the mix. Having someone watch as they are going in the target makes it much easier to know where we are hitting.
> I have one of the best pair of optics on the market, and there were definately targets where I could not find the arrow I just shot.
> I know this issue cost quite a few people points that could otherwise have been saved.
> ...


These are the options that I have seen. While I think that option 2 is the best, the constant checking of shots with bino's is extremely time consuming. Especially when you have the other 2 guys spotting for you....

Pet peeve #2, if your arrow goes in the woods, tough! You knew coming into the shoot that you could potentially lose an arrow. Write down the target number and come back later.

Instead of flighting the shooters by score for target assignment on the following day, why don't we do it by finishing time? Put the fastest shooters together and ahead of the slower shooters.....hmmmmnnnn......


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## Brown Hornet (Aug 8, 2002)

6X60 said:


> I see it a little differently.
> 
> I think this thread proves that no matter how great something is there is always room for improvment.
> 
> ...


This guy gets it :wink:

Again...my intentions behind starting this thread were to improve the shoot and to make it even better...I in no way started it as an attack on the people in the Burg or the NFAA. 

But things that have happened in the past in "meetings" make a little more sense now :doh:


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## Brown Hornet (Aug 8, 2002)

Scott.Barrett said:


> Instead of flighting the shooters by score for target assignment on the following day, why don't we do it by finishing time? Put the fastest shooters together and ahead of the slower shooters.....hmmmmnnnn......


The faster groups are usually shooting the higher scores....pretty easy to score four 20s or 3 20s and a 19...vs 16, 15, 18, 19 :wink:

This is going to come off as uppity or whatever....but if I am shooting in the 530-540 range I don't want to shoot with guys shooting in the 520 and lower range at Nationals for 4-5 days.... I prefer to shoot with my peers. Just like I am sure the guys on the top bale want to do the same. The guys shooting saw a 505 sure don't want to feel like they are going head to head with X Hunter. 

But what is being missed is that its not like some finished in at 12:45 and then others finished 10 mins to 3. Everyone is getting off the course around the same time...within a 1/2 hour. Even if you start the fast groups on say target 24-28....and the slow groups on targets 1-5....guess what happens.... You still are slowed or pushed depending on how you look at it because we are all shooting on the same course at the same time :doh:

This isn't golf where some start in the morning and afternoon on the back and front...with staggered times teeing off from one and 10. Every group starts at the same time on a target. :wink:


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## IGluIt4U (Sep 22, 2004)

6X60 said:


> I see it a little differently.
> 
> I think this thread proves that no matter how great something is there is always room for improvment.
> 
> ...





Brown Hornet said:


> This guy gets it :wink:


Post of the day material.. :thumb:


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## Moparmatty (Jun 23, 2003)

Brown Hornet said:


> The faster groups are usually shooting the higher scores....pretty easy to score four 20s or 3 20s and a 19...vs 16, 15, 18, 19 :wink:
> 
> This is going to come off as uppity or whatever....but if I am shooting in the 530-540 range I don't want to shoot with guys shooting in the 520 and lower range at Nationals for 4-5 days.... I prefer to shoot with my peers. Just like I am sure the guys on the top bale want to do the same. The guys shooting saw a 505 sure don't want to feel like they are going head to head with X Hunter.
> 
> ...


Hear that Sticky. He doesn't like shooting with you after all. LMAO!!! :chortle:


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## IGluIt4U (Sep 22, 2004)

Moparmatty said:


> Hear that Sticky. He doesn't like shooting with you after all. LMAO!!! :chortle:


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## Brown Hornet (Aug 8, 2002)

Moparmatty said:


> Hear that Sticky. He doesn't like shooting with you after all. LMAO!!! :chortle:


:zip: 

Heck he shoots in the 20s when he shoots with me....its when he shoots with the other goof balls that he falls apart. I have to keep him going...he tries to beat me so he shoots better. He gets lazy or starts thinking when he shoots without me :doh:

Tiger may play a practice round with Jordan but he would rather play with Phil when its time to get serious :wink:


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## IGluIt4U (Sep 22, 2004)

Brown Hornet said:


> :zip:
> 
> Heck he shoots in the 20s when he shoots with me....its when he shoots with the other goof balls that he falls apart. I have to keep him going...he tries to beat me so he shoots better. He gets lazy or starts thinking when he shoots without me :doh:
> 
> Tiger may play a practice round with Jordan but he would rather play with Phil when its time to get serious :wink:


Yep.. something about shootin with the better archers actually helps me... shot my two pb's, one point apart, first time with Hinky and YJ and most recently when shooting with Hornet and the Will's team... .:thumb: :noidea:

I'm learnin.. still... :baby:


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## south-paaw (Jul 3, 2006)

IGluIt4U said:


> Yep.. something about shootin with the better archers actually helps me... shot my two pb's, one point apart, first time with Hinky and YJ and most recently when shooting with Hornet and the Will's team... .:thumb: :noidea:
> 
> I'm learnin.. still... :baby:




```

```
ahhhh-haaaahhh... so you don't like shooting with _BG_... :wink:.... brings you down huhhh...??.. heheeeee.. j/k BG...:smile:

:grouphug:


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## Brown Hornet (Aug 8, 2002)

south-paaw said:


> ```
> 
> ```
> ahhhh-haaaahhh... so you don't like shooting with _BG_... :wink:.... brings you down huhhh...??.. heheeeee.. j/k BG...:smile:
> ...


I shot my lowest score of the week with him....actually so did 3DHoytshooter and Loper :doh:

We may be on to something here.....


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## Moparmatty (Jun 23, 2003)

Brown Hornet said:


> I shot my lowest score of the week with him....actually so did 3DHoytshooter and Loper :doh:
> 
> We may be on to something here.....


:chortle:


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## south-paaw (Jul 3, 2006)

Brown Hornet said:


> I shot my lowest score of the week with him....actually so did 3DHoytshooter and Loper :doh:
> 
> We may be on to something here.....




```

```
he may not need to worry about having to shoot 4 wide _anymore_... !..:mg:


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