# How to avoid Target Panic



## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

I thought maybe everyone could share how they think target panic could be avoided.

I think first we should define TP - when I say avoid Target Panic - I do not mean the occassional issues we all get (bad days) or first time in a certian type of competition - or occassional buck fever - what I am speaking about is actual TP that ends up ruining archery for a person.

I get buck (and doe fever) as bad as the next guy - when I am hunting - I can sit and watch deer all day - but the minute I decide to shoot one - my heart starts racing and my breathing rate increases - sometimes to darn near hyperventilating - but I can still control the shot. The last nice buck I shot I was shaking so bad, my heart was racing so fast, and my breathing so heavy that I thought I would never get under controll - but what I did was look away from him - took a few deep breaths and said to myself - "no big deal if something goes wrong and I don't get him" - and i calmed down enough to make a great shot and get him.

Regarding TP - I, like everyone have bad days shooting - and what I usually do is just stop for that day - if it is a competition - I just do my best to let the bad shots go and make the shoot fun and laugh at myself.

I have never had TP to the point of it effecting my archery as a hole.

I believe that there are few things that contribute greatly to target panic and they are.

1. being overly competitive

2. being overly worried about making a bad shot

3. being too hard on yourself - ie: expecting too much of yourself

4. shooting too much - I shoot a lot - pretty much every day - but every once and a while - I will take a week or two and back off - also, when I am shooting bad on the practice range - if I cannot figure out what is going on and correct it in short order - I just stop and shoot another day.

5. taking too much advise from too many different people - archery is a personal thing and we need to make it custom to us

6. over thinking the shot - the form, the aim, etc... your shooting should become like driving a car or riding a bike - the bow should become an extension of you and you should be able to do it with little thought and with ease.

7. It should be fun - first and formost - FUN

did I mention that archery should be fun?

anyhow - your thoughts


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## AngelRa (Nov 15, 2010)

Reduce the chance for TP by having a weekly competition that you win if you shoot your 5 arrows before the others but it must hit the target to count, no scoring rings only hit or miss. Do it with a BT release to make it more challenging.


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## steve morley (Dec 24, 2005)

Simply put , total faith in Bow setup, Aiming method and shot sequence.

KSL shot sequence has been tested and proven to be very effective, meaning it is my feeling that many Trad shooters put far too much into their aiming to a point where form suffers, when really it is the easiest part of our shooting to maintain to a good/repeatable level. Im not saying aiming isnt important, just not as important as some make out.


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## Sanford (Jan 26, 2009)

From a "pure TP" standpoint, none on that list correlate to it, though someone could hypothesize all day long about such. The ones I have seen are as Jimmy described, the inability to control the release, even to the point one would shoot through a glass window if drawn in front. It's not a nervous thing, it's not a buck fever thing, none of that from the folks I've seen. It is plain and simple a short-circuit, a Pavlovian response as it's been described. The neural path to trigger is short-circuited in the subconscious to the point the person is helpless to control when they release. 

Causes can be bandied all day long, but first, one really needs to see a few bad cases to get a full picture of the malady. One point I disagree on by some experts is that I have seen a new archer get it, or come with it. From day one, she had complete loss of control.


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## zestycj7 (Sep 24, 2010)

TP is not just being able to hold at anchor, it can be anything from that to being able to shoot with a dead realse or a followthrogh release, dropping your bow arm, plucking on the loose, tons of things.
What ever it is I belive it always can be worked out to a point if not all the way.
Don.


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

TP is not necessarily the inability to hold the release - watch sight shooters with TP some time - I saw one of our top compound shooters in my league end up with a bad case of TP - he could hold the release all day long - but at the split second he released he moved the bow - it was an inability to hold the aim.

But either way - inability to hold the release or the aim is a symptom of TP - the root cause is psychological. 

I firmly believe that what I listed is the root of the pschological issues with shooting that cause TP.


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## Greysides (Jun 10, 2009)

*Target Panic - by Jim Ploen*


Before we can cure target panic we need to know the symptoms, the causes and the effects that this malady exerts on each of the acts of drawing the bow to anchor, holding to aim, and releasing the string The symptoms vary, but they include inability to come to full draw while aiming at the target, and being unable to move the bow to the proper aiming position to hit the intended target. It is a leading cause for would-be archers giving up the sport
Archery can be one of the simplest of sports, one in which one uses just a bow, a string, and an arrow. It is one that hold a fascination for many. The history of the bow is part of its appeal; it is so rich that one can make a life-long study of the bow, its materials, the woods used, the backings for the limbs, limb shape and bow lengths, grips, rests, sight windows, and their origins. Study of its history reveals that changes in materials, design and construction of the bow have occurred all through its history.

Despite all the design and material changes one thing has not changed in conventional archery, and that is the fact that in drawing the string, the archer provides the energy that is stored in the bow. As long as the bow has a string attached directly to the limb tips the principles are the same for recurves, flat bows, longbows, self-bows or composite bows. The archer provides the energy that is stored when bending the limbs by drawing the string. Nevertheless, the bows' design can contribute to shooter’s (target) panic. Not being able to reach a comfortable anchor because of the bow “stacks” is one major cause of target panic that can be greatly affected by bow design; anticipating hand-shock is another. “Stacking”, which is an accelerating increase in the force needed to draw an arrow each additional inch, can be recognized by plotting a force-draw cure. This is a plot of draw weight, usually at one-inch increments from brace-height to full draw. If the draw weight increases appreciably more during the last few inches than earlier in the draw, the bow is said to “stack”. Any increase over about four pounds per inch will feel to you as if you were hitting a wall as you try to reach your anchor. This can lead to target panic as you struggle to reach your anchor at the same time that you are trying to take careful aim at your target

The symptoms of target panic include not being able to draw to anchor, premature release of the string, flinching, snap shooting, and freezing. Freezing is the inability to move the bow arm when trying to adjust the alignment of the arrow. Most of these symptoms result from shooting a bow with too heavy a draw weight, but freezing can develop no matter what type of bow an archer chooses. The very act of drawing a heavy bow builds tension in the muscles being used and in the tendons that attach them to the bones that can lead to a protective reflex relaxation of the tension or a flexor reflex. A flexor reflex is a movement, which occurs without a conscious decision from the brain. There are many different types of reflexes, but the one we are the most aware of is the flexor reflex that reacts to pain and is part of our self-protection. We will quickly withdraw any part of our body the instant it is hurt. No conscious decision on our part is needed to jerk away from the area of pain. A lack of self-discipline that leads to the inability to control these reflexes while shooting is a major reason we lose so may archers and why the compound bow became so popular. The high let-off of the latter makes it much easier to hold at full draw with the muscles relaxed. Olympic style archers shooting at targets out to seventy and ninety meters are not able to group consistently with traditional recurve or long bows drawing more than forty?two to forty?six pounds for men. Our own physiological and psychological make up working for us yet against us make archery one of the most challenging of sports to master.

Input from other stimuli can also bring about reflexes. The brain tries to anticipate our actions and this in itself can trigger a conditioned reflex reaction. Can attempting to aim contribute to shooters' panic? Indeed it can! For instance the input through the eyes, seeing the movement of the sight or hand or alignment of the arrow can be enough to trigger a reflex release of the string. Whether one uses a bow sight, or the arrow tip in setting a gap, or simply uses the bow hand, as an aiming reference, freezing, is a form of target panic, can develop. Usually it begins only after the archer tries to master the skills needed to excel when he or she becomes aware of the difficulty involved in reaching the master level.

Much has been written about cures for panic. Each article has some merit because all that is needed to cure target panic temporarily is a change. It takes a little time to reacquaint to the new feel before reflexes again take over. I always enjoyed the statement that you can put a cigarette paper under your left heel and it will help for one shot. So will a new stance, or a squat, or a new grip like holding the bow far out on the thumb, pad or tucking a finger in between your hand and the bow grip. Changing anchors or a new tab or glove, changing draw weight, a new finger grip on the string also may help for a while. All of these changes can be of some benefit, but without a fundamental understanding of the causes and a set shooting style based on control to work from, we may think we know the reason for our miss or blame our problems on the equipment or poor selection of arrow matching to the bow.

After we go through learning procedures that are not instinctive but must be practiced consciously to develop strength and style, we can reach a stage where we can complete the actions with little conscious thought. The more we practice the more skilful we become in the acts of drawing, anchoring, holding, aiming, and releasing. Our conditioned reflexes also become honed to respond to the stimuli set-up by the very actions needed to perfect the shot
So where do we start? First, we must be able to recognize the problem. Then we must admit that we do have a problem and look for a positive program to develop new conditioned reflexes by retraining muscle memory and the brain circuitry to make us masters of ourselves in the act of shooting the bow. We are told that it takes twenty to twenty-one days to break and retrain a habit. In our case this means we need to shoot about 2,000 arrows shooting 100 arrows a day for twenty days without trying to test ourselves by going to a tournament that would interrupt our training program. Be sure that you know and recognize your problem. Is it your inability to reach an anchor? Shooting by feel without really aiming the arrow? Are you shooting without alignment? Snap shooting? Freezing off the spot? Know what your problem is and work at solving that problem. Develop a shooting style that has a solid basis and feels that to you. You must develop such a consistent form that you can recognize your shooting mistakes by where the arrows hit on the target when you know it was a well aimed arrow

Start your new training program using a light draw-weight bow; thirty-five to forty pounds is ideal. Stand about ten yards from your arrow backstop (with or without a target to aim at). Raise your bow to a pre-shooting position and align the arrow with your peripheral vision as you concentrate on the spot. This sets your bow hand and bow arm as well as aligning your drawing hand and arm. Concentrating your attention on "the spot" as you start your draw can be likened to moving your finger to the flame of a candle, likewise starting to feel the heat can be thought of as parallel to the brain starting to anticipate your coming to anchor. Just as the heat triggers a withdrawal reflex, concentrating on "the spot" can trigger a conditioned reflex release of the string. Similarly, the build-up of tension in the muscles may trigger a reflex release and the arrow goes were it happened to be pointed at that instant.

In order to gain control of our shot we must "blow out that candle", that is, remove the stimulus that prevented us from coming to a full draw. By that I mean that once you have pre-aimed in your set-up you must take your eye off the spot (like blowing out the candle) and look at the arrow shelf. Then watch the arrow as it comes back until you are at full draw at your selected anchor. Starting to refocus on the spot is like relighting that candle. The hot spot is there triggering a reflex, but at least you were at a full draw. That's a start, but it is not the answer to shooting with control. Control comes only when you come to feel that you are aiming at the cold wick not the hot flame of a lit candle. Take one step at a time to retrain, that is replace, all the conditioned reflexes that constitute target panic. This is going to take some hard and persistent work. After all you shot a lot of arrows developing those bad habits and reflex responses, and it will take a lot of controlled shots to replace them.

Start with your pre draw set-up. Pick and focus on "that spot" and aim the arrow with your peripheral vision. Then again blow out that candle by looking at your rest without moving your pre?aligned bow hand. Draw and you will come to a full draw, holding at your pre-selected anchor. Now close your eyes. Hold and get a feeling for holding, then release (with your eyes still closed). That is your second step. The first one was just to get you to anchor, second to close your eyes and feel the hold at the anchor. Shoot a lot of arrows with your eyes closed just to retrain your reflexes and to get a feeling for holding.

We will keep adding one more step at a time so that you do not start to anticipate the action and trigger an uncontrolled reflex. We are not introducing the aiming of the arrow at this time, only the pre-aim before we start the draw so that you can stay on target with your shot with your eyes closed. This is the time to add another step and that is the motivation for the release. With no hot spot you are able to draw to anchor and hold. Now its time to develop the release motivation. From the hold at your anchor firm the back muscles that move the scapulae of both the bow arm the drawing side in the back. The feeling is like that of pushing with one shoulder blade to firm the bow arm as you again start to draw by firming the scapula of the drawing shoulder. Do this in unison so both are working together, with equal intensity. That feeling of equal tension pulling both shoulder blades together is the motivation for a perfect in line release. Practice shooting in this manner for a couple of shooting sessions until it becomes learned and you start to shoot groups with your eyes closed. In this way you will be setting a routine that gives you something to do after the aim, in this case after you close your eyes. That means that aiming will not be the stimulus to release, that stimulus will be the feeling of restarting of the draw after aiming by firming the shoulder blades. It's the tightening that gives you an in?line release. This feel of starting to draw in the back will be come automatic and the motivation for releasing. The balance of tension between the scapulae will determine how closely your matched arrows will group in the target. This procedure to retrain and gain control of your reflexes and will take that 20 days or 2000 arrows to build the confidence needed to put you back in control of the shot

Putting it all together, shooting an aimed arrow with control starts with your pre-draw. Take a comfortable stance and hold your bow in a pre-draw to set the string alignment. It is important that you hold the bow so that the arrow is aligned with the target to match the arrow-plate build-out of your bow. Remember to align the string with the arrow not the center of the bow. (This will be covered under tuning in a later article). With both eyes open to help you to judge distance using your depth perception, pick a spot, and, in your scenic view of the target, you should see bow, arrow, target relationship. Then align the vertical alignment to set the arrow trajectory. Now, without moving the bow arm, start your draw. Keep looking at the arrow rest, not at the target, until you can come to a solid anchor and hold. It is important to let your focus change slowly from looking at the arrow rest to the spot on the target, to check your aiming of the arrow in your peripheral view. Now close the eye that you are not anchoring below and you will see a much clearer view of aiming the arrow, especially if you cant the bow slightly using the arrow as a pivot point.

Remember that aiming should not be a motivation to release or to cause a reflex release. You are aiming at the wick not the hot flame. You still have another step before you release, and that is the final setting of the scapula to firm the bow arm and tighten the muscles around the scapulae to set the in-line release. That setting the tension in your back should be your motivation to release. The flexor muscles for the fingers relax to release the string, and that should the feeling that sets off a conditioned reflex with balanced tension around the scapulae. The reflex is triggered by the proper tension in the back after the aiming. I think that you can now see what we are trying to accomplish by having a set procedure with steps that must be completed before the next step is introduced. In that way you do not start to anticipate the action that would trigger a reflex response to the action before the final start of the motivation for the in-line release. Once you are in control of the aim you will be able to set your own style and that may be keeping both eyes open, only closing one when needed, or keeping your focus on the spot through the draw to anchor and aim. Then start the motivation to release. You can always go back to the basic step-by-step format when you feel you are losing control.

Just remember that it will take time to retrain in the first place, so have patience. As you move back from the target, you will find that at some distance it will be harder to stay in control. Go back toward the target a few steps. Get your control and confidence and try again. Just remember any change without understanding the reason the change works will last only as long as it takes to become familiar with the change and you start to anticipate, setting yourself up for a reflex response without you being in control.


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

Greyside that huge poist is one mans opinion - there are contrary opinions out there - I can give long quotes from The Mental Mechanics of Archery and Understanding Winning Archery that view it differently - I am more curious as to our own personal opinions and experiences.


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## steve morley (Dec 24, 2005)

Jims article is a few years old now and it has stood the test of time, he was one of the greats. a very talented shooter/Bowyer in his prime.

I had the pleasure of meeting him 3 years ago at NAFAC, a real gentleman of Archery with great experience/insight into our sport.


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## Boberau (Dec 15, 2009)

I ran into 10th grade Biology, jumped in my seat, slammed open papers all over my desk. That last two minutes of studying was essential to a high score on the test.

And, there sat Ed, calm as could be, without a care in the world, and no books open. "Why aren't you studying????," I said. Ed calmly said, "If I don't know it now, I won't ever know it - so no use getting myself in a panic." 

Ed always scored well. In fact, fast forward a half century, and Ed's retired out of a CFO position in a fortune 500 company. 

That's successful, in my book. And, Ed was competitive.

There's a lesson here in relaxation. 

"Target Panic" happens everywhere in life. It's not related to the specifics of an endeavor but to the relaxation of the individual. 

The more competitive one wishes to become, the more one must learn to relax. 

In another tread, an individual stated that his archery scores were much higher in practice than in heavy competition. I maintain that the person hasn't learned how to relax.

Now, I've not shot competitive archery. But, I've shot competitive Trap. You wouldn't believe the excuses people make! "A bird flew past." "A fly landed on my barrel." "A dog barked." "The guy before me had a funny call sequence." 

It's all baloney. All! 

Why?

Because that's the real world. If you can't relax and perform with the real world exerting its influence, then you haven't trained yourself to relax and block out all that in order to get yourself into the "zone." 

It seems to me, from my experiences in life, that the more competitive one wishes to become, the more important one must learn to relax in the moment. 

Last year, I was practicing for a bear hunt. I recall asking Ken for advise, which he gave me. I had become frustrated ( in practice ) and was in a funk. I was debating putting sights on my bow. At the end of the day, I had to be ethical to the bears. ... I can't remember exactly Ken's advise, but he convinced me to keep with the instinctive. Which I did. 

What I never told Ken was something I had long ago learned about myself. I knew that, in the moment, my responses would be superior to my practice. I've always preformed better in the moment than practice. It all goes back to 10th grade and what Ed taught me. 

Someone could call it an over inflated ego. But, I know I will perform better in the moment than in practice. And, I've always seen those people who preform better in practice than in the moment. 

And, going back to Ken and his advise. I think that Ken is very competitive in that which is important to him. But, read back in this thread, and he provides some hint as to what goes on in his head - how he controls his hpyerventaliting. I fully understand that. That's what I say is training oneself to relax. 

D. Lee Braun, one of the greatest Skeet shooters of all times wrote that the referee should have to tell you to take your last shot, because you have no clue whether or not you've missed any targets on the field. That's focus. That's relaxation. That's being "in the moment" of each and every single shot. There were no prior shots, nor any future shots - only the present shot. 

For me? I'm not interested in any way about the "mechanics" of archer's "Target Panic." It's all mental - for everyone who has learned how to shoot - and has nothing whatever to do with the mechanics of archery.


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## vabowdog (Dec 13, 2007)

It would do ALOT of us good to read and digest any article written by Jim Ploen...

Greysides...thanks for posting....


Dewayne Martin


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

yep, just as it would do a lot of good for guys to read and digest The Mental Mechanics of Archery and Understanding Winning Archery - among many other books - but in this thread I was more curious about personal opinions based on your personal experiences and observations.


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

Greysides said:


> Before we can cure target panic we need to know the *symptoms*, the causes and the effects that this malady exerts on each of the acts of drawing the bow to anchor, holding to aim, and releasing the string. *The symptoms vary*, but they include inability to come to full draw while aiming at the target, and being unable to move the bow to the proper aiming position to hit the intended target.
> 
> Nevertheless, the bows' design can contribute to shooter’s (target) panic. Not being able to reach a comfortable anchor because of the bow “stacks” is one major cause of target panic that can be greatly affected by bow design; anticipating hand-shock is another.
> 
> ...


AWESOME!!!! :thumbs_up COMPLETELY AGREE!

Anxiety in any form...no matter what triggers it..or helps to develop it...is when TP can begin to take hold.

Tools for the cure - The Blank Bale and The Bridge! :thumbs_up

Ray :shade:


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## Matt_Potter (Apr 13, 2010)

Ken - good thread and I agree with the personal experiences - I will say the Jim Polen article is great reading and VERY informative.

I think TP lives in all of us I deal with it and most of the guys that I have talked to, that have been shooting for a while, deal with it as well.

The most effective way for me to deal with it is total confidence in my tune, equipment, aiming system (what ever it may be) and form. This needs to be coupled with a separation in my shot sequence. I need to bring myself to anchor with back tension and then start aiming and once I find my spot - consciously increase back tension bringing the shot to conclusion. Aiming isn't any part of the equation until I am at anchor and stable - finding the spot can't trigger the release it has to be triggered by a conscious increase of back tension.

I've been shooting a bunch of spots lately and every 5 shots or so I'll bring myself to anchor, aim and hold the spot but, never fire the back to bring shot to conclusion. I'll hold it for 5-10 seconds and then let down. I've never felt more control than I am right now - that's not to say I won't blow up in Vegas LOL

Matt


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

See I disagaree with some of what he says - he talks about having too heavy of a draw causing target panic - I disagree with that totally - having too heavy of a draw causes bad form - not target panic.

In my opinion true target panic is the inability to hold the aim (on either end of the bow) The brain sort of rebels against holding the pin on that spot or the arrow - or whatever - and it causes you to move just before release or to be unable to release because you can never get the cue that everything is lined up right or to release to soon, etc...


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## BarneySlayer (Feb 28, 2009)

Decisive definition of Target Panic.

Target panic is when you get to full draw, realize everybody's watching you because you're the last shooter to let go of an arrow on the line, you rip a loud one that you wish was a fart, and then can't hold aim or let go because you're afraid of retrieving that arrow.


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

sharpbroadhead said:


> See I disagaree with some of what he says - he talks about having too heavy of a draw causing target panic - I disagree with that totally - having too heavy of a draw causes bad form -


If an archer is struggling with drawing the bow...which creates inconsistent form...which creates accuracy issues...it can trigger an archer to develop anxiety that leads to TP.

Struggling with to heavy a draw weight is NOT going to cause every archer to get TP...no more than an aiming technique is going to cause every archer to get it.

AGAIN...whether or not an archer gets TP is primarily caused by the archer's personality, their goals and their abilities.

Ray :shade:


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

BarneySlayer said:


> Decisive definition of Target Panic.
> 
> Target panic is when you get to full draw, realize everybody's watching you because you're the last shooter to let go of an arrow on the line, you rip a loud one that you wish was a fart, and then can't hold aim or let go because you're afraid of retrieving that arrow.


Yep :wink:

Ray :shade:


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## MrSinister (Jan 23, 2003)

My method is to enjoy shooting. If time has taught me anything it is that you gotta learn to be the ball. To quote Kenny Loggins


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## HOYTINIT (Aug 28, 2012)

of course the target panics..it's about to get shot..


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## itbeso (Jul 6, 2005)

Boberau said:


> I ran into 10th grade Biology, jumped in my seat, slammed open papers all over my desk. That last two minutes of studying was essential to a high score on the test.
> 
> And, there sat Ed, calm as could be, without a care in the world, and no books open. "Why aren't you studying????," I said. Ed calmly said, "If I don't know it now, I won't ever know it - so no use getting myself in a panic."
> 
> ...


Bob, with all due respect to your school experience, archery is a different nut to crack. You stated that you have never shot competitive archery. I would suggest you take a stickbow down to Las Vegas this year and enter the barebow competition. When the tournament is over, come back on here and tell everyone you performed better there than at home. I have played all major sports at one time or another. Archery has many things unique to it that you won't find elsewhere. Very few people, if any, ever master this sport, I think that is why so many of us stick with it all our lives, looking for a perfection that is probably never going to come. But, it sure is fun, (and frustrating), to keep trying.


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## 45 x (Dec 4, 2011)

just RELAX, let the the dot FLOAT, BELIEVE in yourself, dont over think the shot, RELAX..RELAX..RELAX, float the dot, float the dot and BANG you just hit the X ring.


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

45X - what your saying is key to what I have been saying about the inability to hold the aim - there are guys who can hold at draw for great lengths of time - especially with compounds - but their issue is an inability to either release when the dot or arrow or whatever conscious method of aiming they are doing is lined up.

In my experience this is true target panic - and this is usually a very hard and complex thing to fix in someone who has it bad. Snap shooting, in my experience, has always been related to bad form and is a relatively easy thing to fix - so long as the person is willing to let go of the notion that snap shooting is how an instinctive shooter is supposed to shoot.


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## benofthehood (May 18, 2011)

Jim Ploens writings have remained pretty spot on for me personally but can see that others may not agree or think similarly .

One thing I would disagree with you on though Ken is the bow poundage not being a cause of TP ... It very well may not be for some , but in many many cases I am sure that the bad form it brings is but the very beginning of TP for many


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

bad form and target panic are two different and distinct things - someone with bad form usually will never get good enough to experience true target panic - true target panic comes after an archer becomes a good shot.


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

Just thinking over some of the comments made in the threads lately and especially the ones made by the usual suspects against instinctive shooting - and speck made a great comment - when he said: "what about all the gap shooters and other conscious aimers that suck"

two years in a row I finished forth in my class - the largest class - the Recurve Class - each time there were, i think, around 70 shooters in that class - and Jimmy and others love to point out that virtually all of them except for myself and a few others are gap shooters or use some from of conscious aiming and that good instinctive shooters, like myself, Rick Welch, Sean Callanan, Scott Langley, etc... are the exception and rare.

Well lets see - out of 70 shooters and the majority using gap or some other conscious aiming method - only 3 scored higher than me - and in the case of Rick Welch, Sean Callanan , and Scott Langley - NONE scored higher than them when they earned the title of "World Champion"

yet we keep hearing how instinctive shooting is inferior, how you need to grow into other aiming methods, how you have to become less ignorant of archery, how you can't win trophies - man made or animal (gee Fred Bear and Fred Asbel have lots of animal trophies - as does Eichler - all instinctive shooters), not to mention the trophy animals that I, Rick Welch, Sean Callanan and Scott Langly have gotten.

It seems to me that the guys that aim instinctively per capita of guys that shoot that way - do pretty a good job - in fact - per capita - we shoot better - at least at 3D.

Speck makes a great point - "what about all the conscious aimers that suck?

and we rarely get target panic - why - becuae we are just having too dang much fun shooting arrows to worry about all this other stuff! 

:tongue:


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## benofthehood (May 18, 2011)

Ken , no doubt you shoot well and congrats on your achievements . I would suggest however that the many many archers we all see , short drawing at those non competitive events you dislike so much ... well I'd suggest that they are in no way in control of their shot as a result of TP ..... Remembering that there are thousands upon thousands of participants at those big US shoots and by all accounts , some of the skill set by ethical hunting standards , let alone competitive standards leaves a lot to be desired . The 70 or so competitors at the shoots you refer to will no doubt have a modicum of ability regardless of aiming style and will do well regardless ... thats more tan likely why they turned up and the others didn't ........

It will be interesting to see if te results differ with the IBO's being held up north if the numbers and/or results are markedly different .

Also I don't see anyone decrying the abilities of those "instinctive" archers who do well , in fact I read others criticisms alluding to just plain ol' bad shooting ... bad shooting so often excused with "I am an instinctor" or similar . The very same mind set that believes aiming systems ain't that "trad" , carbons are for compounds and camo is just cheating .

Its the TP afflicted "instinctors" whom shoot so poorly , those that you yourself reference time and time again , unable to group at 15 yards , contiually missing an entire 3D at 12 yards [ after years and years of shooting ] , that perhaps draw the amusement of us that know archery can be a pursuit in excellence AND fun ... not just a social gathering embroiled in mediocrity .

From one instinctive shooter to another .....

Ben


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## Greysides (Jun 10, 2009)

sharpbroadhead said:


> Greyside that huge poist is one mans opinion - there are contrary opinions out there - I can give long quotes from The Mental Mechanics of Archery and Understanding Winning Archery that view it differently - I am more curious as to our own personal opinions and experiences.


If reading would cure TP, I'd not only be cured but canonised for my missionary work. 

I've read both those books, Mental Mechanics on your recommendation, plus Instinctive Archery Insight, With Winning in Mind; several golf books etc. 

I've searched on the web and listened to everyone's experience as they recount their stories.



My solution has been a mixture of all I've read. Hard to credit particular individuals but if I had it would be Noel Turner/Clickerman in MBB4 and Rhys Aizlewood on the Australian Archery Forum.

Noels approach blended with exercises described by Rhys was the larger part of my solution.



However as each individual is different, each solution will be different.

Lack of confidence in my ability to hold my draw weight was a factor in MY case; a bad grip was too- the bow was untorquing in my hand. 

It took a while to realise my head was picking it up and shouting to 'release quick' before riser moved.

The biggest factor was probably an emphasis on the result of the shot, rather than the process of the shot.

It started at a time when I realised I was good at archery and wanted to be really good- not having been much of a sportsman before I wanted to shine at some sport.

Self-pressure. I still want to improve but now I am doing my best to focus on the process and that must include mental process and thought control.


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## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

Here's my .02...while Mr. Ploems write-up is very comprehensive?..i've tried all that and then some...and guess what?..it's all needed (and then some) if one is to succesfully defeat this horrific demon of the mind..but here is my contention...while "physical exercises" such as the well known standards of Blind-Bail and Blank-Bail (especially Blind-Bail) can and do in fact have tremendous value?..that value to me only proves out that either "yes..i can handle my bow and it's weight" or?.."no..i'm over-bowed"..so while the bail work (for me) is a great way of determining if i'm over-bowed or not annnnnd?..is an excellent exercise for form and shot-sequence developement?..i've concluded that..

"I can NOT *cure* what is a MENTAL STIGMA by repetition of PHYSICAL ACTS."

Oh there's some great "band-aids" out there and proof of that comes to me via the fact that i can stand for hours blind/blank bailing from 3-5yds and repeatedly execute picture perfect form..but then as i begin "bridging back"?...and as the distance to the target expotentially amplifies the errors of my point of impact?..here it comes..."The Primary Problem"...simply put?..."FEAR"...more to the point?..."Fear Of Missing".

and i don't care if you've yanked enough arrows back to look like Adonis with enough strength to snap 100# bows in half...physical conditioning is not going to cure a shortcoming in your mental game..and those of you who are unfortunate enough to have become familiar with this horrifying malody know that i speak the truth. 

Those who have not encountered such can neither relate nor fully understand..and alls they do know is what they've either read or heard and then voice their opines on thought..not experience...that said?..besides the standards of blind/blank-bailing..here's some exercises that have been working for me..

1. I draw back taking aim on a spot near my bullseye...and i pretend that "that spot" (near my bullseye) is the face of a loved one..pretending that if i dare loose that arrow?..(you get the drift)...and i hold it "on their face" until i'm solidly anchored and for period of about 2-3 seconds..then?..i slowly shift my focus onto the bull..my bowarm follows..and when it feels right?..that face turns into that of my darkest enemy and bam...it's there...and the face of my darkest enemy is about the size of a quarter! :laugh:

2. I will face uprange...draw to solid anchor taking aim on a spot uprange...then turn at the waist resisting the urge to loose until i've held on the mark for at least 1-2 seconds.

3. "Bullseye Dancing": This is a exercise i do when i experience "The Freezing" (Mr. Ploem cites) where if my bowarm starts seeming reluctant to move about?..i'll pick 3 different bulls and dance from one to the other while at full draw holding on each and every one for a second or two (until i'm satified) before moving to the next and?...LET DOWN..every other arrow.

4. The "I Can Breath" exercise..(one i came up with recently) as i noticed that i had worked "breathing" into my shot sequence..and my demon beast of TP even used that against me whereby i would take several deep breaths before drawing then...inhale on the draw..anchor..then relax my breath and then?...one of two things would happen..1. Panic that i was going to run out of oxygen or?...2. Right when i hit "relaxed breath"..ready or not...off went the arrow....as even my breath became a mental trigger my TP used against me...so?..i started practicing by draw to solid anchor and holding while i took seveal breaths at full draw position before releasing..and yes...it helped..big time...and i love doing that..just came up with that one recently..and it seriously reinforces that fact that...YES!...i can command my shot!..even if i need more oxygen to get it done! 


as you see..anything...and i mean anything..that can evoke "FEAR" into the shot?....wether it be missing, running out of strength to hold or even air to breath?..the one thing they all have in common is "FEAR"..and i've yet to meet the first person that can physically exercise their way out of it. :laugh:

so..here it is folks...the big kahona!..the bomb diggity!...ready?...

#5. *"NO FEAR!"*...that's right...and i refuse to have it cause i dang sure can't shoot worth a flip with it...fear is a lack of faith...including faith in ones self that you can in fact execute proper form and shot sequence...with each and every shot..and the big thing that's helped me recently?..is the end of daylight savings time...i.e.?...it's gets dark way earlier...which means i get to shoot far less arrows...which means that i no longer get off on flinging 400 arrows a night that i held for 1 second...now i only have enough daylight to shoot 40 arrows but?...i hold them for 10 seconds...and they are all quality shots...ala...

"Practice doesn't make perfect..Perfect Practice does."

anyways...that's what's been working for me folks...it's been months..and i haven't ventured futher back than 10yds but guess what?...that's just fine by me..i'm taking it slow and having fun...because FEAR is definantly lurking out there at the longer yardages...and i refuse to greet him until i KNOW i have the strength and skills to DEFEAT him. 

Sorry for the curt response.... :laugh: but..all i got and L8R, Bill. :cool2:


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## Bigjono (Apr 21, 2009)

sharpbroadhead said:


> Just thinking over some of the comments made in the threads lately and especially the ones made by the usual suspects against instinctive shooting - and speck made a great comment - when he said: "what about all the gap shooters and other conscious aimers that suck"
> 
> two years in a row I finished forth in my class - the largest class - the Recurve Class - each time there were, i think, around 70 shooters in that class - and Jimmy and others love to point out that virtually all of them except for myself and a few others are gap shooters or use some from of conscious aiming and that good instinctive shooters, like myself, Rick Welch, Sean Callanan, Scott Langley, etc... are the exception and rare.
> 
> ...


Jeez man, we all accept that you're instinctive, we accept the fact that you're a good shot (you tell us often enough), we all accept that gapers and string walkers can suck and get target panic so why can't you accept that target panic is just as rife in the instinctive community as in any other it's just that a lot of them don't know it.
I know who Rick Welch is and I'm not 100% convinced that what he does is instinctive even though he's a great shot. I have never heard of the other 2 guys so can't comment, Asbell looks to me like he has a bit of TP and from what I've seen of Bear he was no great shot anyway. Mr Eichler uses a range finder often, why would he need to know distances if he was purely instinctive?
I learnt to shoot in the UK where wooden bows have to shoot wooden arrows and everyone shot what they called instinctive. The targets there are between 10yds and 100yds depending on the venue, though most are in the 35-50 range, all bow styles shoot from the same peg. Scores were pretty consistent among the good recurve and flatbow shooters until a certain Mr Morley actually started gapping with his flatbow. This nearly got him lynched but he did win (I think) 5 British titles by mixing gap and instinctive. I think the lesson I took from this was that up to 30yds the stare at the target ignore the arrow stuff works, beyond that you'd best have a system if you want to compete. Your method works for the game you play so its right for you, but if you learnt other methods it would add to your talents and make you even better.


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## Jimmy Blackmon (Sep 9, 2010)

sharpbroadhead said:


> Just thinking over some of the comments made in the threads lately and especially the ones made by the usual suspects against instinctive shooting - and speck made a great comment - when he said: "what about all the gap shooters and other conscious aimers that suck"
> 
> two years in a row I finished forth in my class - the largest class - the Recurve Class - each time there were, i think, around 70 shooters in that class - and Jimmy and others love to point out that virtually all of them except for myself and a few others are gap shooters or use some from of conscious aiming and that good instinctive shooters, like myself, Rick Welch, Sean Callanan, Scott Langley, etc... are the exception and rare.
> 
> ...


Ken - is this subject about you or target panic? The subject is much bigger than you or me or any other archer and our scores. It's about potentially helping people who have target panic, mild or terribly bad.


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## J. Wesbrock (Dec 17, 2003)

Greysides said:


> However as each individual is different, each solution will be different.


What an incredibly important point that is too often overlooked. That's why whenever someone says they have a 100% cure for TP that will work for everyone, I know they're either trying to sell something, or don't know half as much about TP as they think they do.


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

benofthehood said:


> Ken , no doubt you shoot well and congrats on your achievements . I would suggest however that the many many archers we all see , short drawing at those non competitive events you dislike so much ... well I'd suggest that they are in no way in control of their shot as a result of TP ..... Remembering that there are thousands upon thousands of participants at those big US shoots and by all accounts , some of the skill set by ethical hunting standards , let alone competitive standards leaves a lot to be desired . The 70 or so competitors at the shoots you refer to will no doubt have a modicum of ability regardless of aiming style and will do well regardless ... thats more tan likely why they turned up and the others didn't ........
> 
> It will be interesting to see if te results differ with the IBO's being held up north if the numbers and/or results are markedly different .
> 
> ...


Ben - well I would suggest that the vast majority of the instinctive shooters you see shooting poorly have shot poorly from the beginning and have never learned proper form - so they do not suffer from TP - they suffer from never learning proper form and thinking that the form they shoot is the way that they should shoot. Regarding you not seeing anyone decrying the abilities of those instinctive shooters who shoot well - you need to pay attention - how many times have we heard that "nobody really shoots instinctive" - how many times have we heard that those who shoot 3 under are not "truly instinctive", or those who pause at anchor are not "fully instinctive" - blah blah blah

But anyhow - the point here is the same disagreement I have with Jimmy - namely that the VAST MAJORITY of instinctive shooters that you see snap shooting are not suffering from target panic - but from bad form - bad form that they learned from the beginning and still have.

Target Panic - true Target Panic comes with success - it comes after one has become a good shot - these guys have never become good shots.


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

to add to the idea that target panic comes with success - think about these things for a minute.

How many times have you seen a guy pick up a bow for the first time and shoot amazingly well? Or any type of sport for that matter - this happens so often that we have a phrase for it: "beginners luck". 

In reality - it is not luck at all. The reason that many people do remarkably well the frist time they try something is because they have no expectations - ie: - they don't care if they do it well or not - they are just trying it out and having fun with it. But after a while as we get better and better - we start to develop expectations of how we should shoot, we also start to realize all the things that can go wrong with a shot, etc... then that "beginners luck" goes away. 

As we improve and become consistent - generally we are shooting more and expecting more of ourselves - and the better we get the higher the risk of TP creeping in - but TP never happens to a beginner or someone who has no real expectations - which very few of the guys that ben described have - they are just out flinging arrows - so they don't have TP - they have bad form.

Another thing to think about - and I am sure many of you can relate to this...

One time I was at an IBO qualifier and it was indoor at a range that had shots to 55 yards. On the back wall was a turkey and it was the full 55 yards - my brother and I were both shooting well and the compound guys were commenting that they never saw trad guys do so well. After we were done one of the guys asked if they thought I could hit that turkey - I said - "lets find out" - and just shot at it - i pinwheeled it - i mean in the dime sized 12 ring. The guys was like wow - could you do it again - If I had a brain in my head I would have said - nah - once is enough - or "you only get one shot when bowhunting" - but no - I had to try again - the second time I shot right over its back and missed the whole darn bird by 2 inches high! - The first time I had no expectations - the 2nd time I did. 

I am convinced that this sort of thing can lead to TP if you let it.


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

I believe target panic happens in most cases to two types of people - those who are extreme competitors and those who have issues with confidence - two polar opposites - but both can end up with the same issues.


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

also - Ben - you said that you have never seen anybody decry good instinctive shooters - I suggest you go read Bigjono's post on the first page of this thread


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## benofthehood (May 18, 2011)

Fair enough , Ken ... we'll have to disagree to disagree on those with TP vs poor form ...

cheers
Ben


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## steve morley (Dec 24, 2005)

Ken youre so proud about coming 4th  I cant imagine how we will all manage when you actually win :wink:

70 doesnt seem that much, The NFAS in UK the Trad Longbow and Recurve made up close to 500 competitors on a good year at the National champs with around 650 to 800 in total, all depended on which part of the UK it was held.

The horrible shooting associated with instinct is more to do with the attitude with a lot of shooters that all is required to shoot instinctive well is burn a hole in the target, Form is last thing on these peoples mind.


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

Steve - the IBO is relatively small - the Rapids Archers Shoot in **** Rapids, MiInnesota has 400-800 trad shooters every year - the IBO trad worlds has around 200, but the IBO tends to attrack the best shooters from around the nation. Steve - I am not proud of coming in 4th - I am not upset with it either - I can say that the scores I shot there are what I usually score - not highter and not lower - now when I went to the NFAA Nationals - my score was lower than normal and I was a bit disappointed by that - but then again I had never been to a shoot like that before and it was loaded with distractions. (BTW I suggested several times that the IBO consider the Rapids archery club - since it already was holding one of the largest COMPETITIVE all traditional shoots in the country for over 20 years -= but they thought the Tennesse Classics sight would draw more shooters - what they failed to realize is that guys who go to non-compete events will not go to the IBO shoots - they could hold an IBO shoot at Comptons, which hosts the largest archery event in the world and not get anymore shooters than they have now - maybe this year will be better - I heard that they are going to Cloverdale and I think this club hosts a large competitive trad shoot every year as well)

I agree 1000000000% about that attitude of many instinctive shooters - many of them are captians in the Trad Police and will bash the heck out of compound shooters, treestand hunters, baiters, guys who wear camo, guys who use light arrows or expandable heads, etc... - yet in many cases they cannot hit the broadside of a barn.

Most instinctive shooters have horrible form - and what is scarry - is that they work hard to get that terrible form - all that bending and twisting and such - it is not even natural! When I first started shooting someone told me to buy Asbells book on Instinctive shooting - which I did - I tried all that bending and stuff that he recommended and never felt comfortable and just shot the way that I thought felt comfortable and I remember my brother and other guys telling me that I should be bending and that I was not standing right, etc... - I thought that maybe I was just different than everyone else - then years and years later my brother and I met Welch and shot with him - my brother no longer does all that bending and stuff and his scores and shooting have improved dramatically. I also shot very fast - I would hit anchor and release very fast - it was Rick Welch who got me to pause at anchor for a bit - he said that by just releasing very fast a habit is formed and the release is not truly subconscious because we feel that we have to release fast. He recommended consciously pausing for a while until I got over the habit of releasing fast and then to just hit anchor and pause until the release just goes off - and that is what I do now - I hit anchor and once I do that I remind myself to keep looking at my spot until after the arrow hits - all the while looking at my spot and nothing else and then all of a sudden - wham - the shot goes off - with no conscious thought to releae the arrow - it just happens. This is why I find it funny that some guys think if you pause at anchor you are not trul instinctive - that pause at anchor gave me a more subconscious or instinctive release than when I released rapidly.

This is partly why I can say that the issue with most all instinctive shooters who are snap shooting is not a TP issue - it is a form issue.


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## Bigjono (Apr 21, 2009)

sharpbroadhead said:


> also - Ben - you said that you have never seen anybody decry good instinctive shooters - I suggest you go read Bigjono's post on the first page of this thread


You get me wrong SB, I do not decry anyone who does what they do well, I accept that you are a great shoot using your method, I still maintain that Mr Welch was doing a form of gapping when I saw him and I have never heard of the other guys you mentioned so would not dream of commenting.
I was interested about your story of the 55yd turkey, doesn't that back up what's been said about the restrictions of instinctive shooting, it doesn't lend itself to groups at longer distances.
I am actually more concerned with reading about TP though, it doesn't only affect the ultra competitive but I agree that makes you more prone to it. I hope a collection of good archers keep this thread going and maybe come up with some solutions and ideas that would help me. Even my 10 year old daughter got it and gave up the sport.


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## MGF (Oct 27, 2012)

sharpbroadhead said:


> I hit anchor and once I do that I remind myself to keep looking at my spot until after the arrow hits - all the while looking at my spot and nothing else and then all of a sudden - wham - the shot goes off - with no conscious thought to releae the arrow - it just happens.


That's interesting to me because, while I aim the arrow, your description is what it feels like when I shoot my best. I can trigger the release a couple of different ways and shoot "ok" but that's not when the best stuff happens.

Naturally, when I try to figure it out, it goes away.


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## steve morley (Dec 24, 2005)

I think in most shooting circles Target and Trad thinking of the release is a big *no*, thinking of release is one of those small things that lead to bigger issues like TP, some just wait and let the shot happen, others trigger the release with expansion, it is an reaction to expanding through the shot rather than an action on its own, it is hard to understand as some people dont experience any problems untill they start shooting under pressure.

So two options available expanding to trigger release or just maintain a balanced load untill you have that settled into aim feeling.

Another problem with the release being a mental trigger when reaching aim, I see people come to aim and as soon as theyre on target the shot is away, this is fine till the pressure is turned on and then see people run into snap shooting issues, the more pressure theyre under the worse the problem, the worse the problem gets the worse the anxiety becomes, effectively your feeding the TP monster with what it needs the most, this is why people get so frustrated and give up. 

When I started playing with aerial targets I started out this way and had a really hard time as they shot felt rushed and awkward, once I figured the target is tracked (aimed) the moment its launched and still aimed after the arrow strikes it started to make real sense to me (even with static targets) and I actually felt I had all the time in the world to make the shot, i.e no rushing or panic to hit the target before it left its flight window of opportunity.


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

Bigjono - Rick Welch has REPEATEDLy stated that he is not a gap shooter that he is an instinctive shotoer, all of his students - many of which went on to become World Champions themselves maintain that Rick is an instinctive shooter and teaches instinctive shooting - yet you, and I quote: "I still maintain that Mr Welch was doing a form of gapping when I saw him" - whether you, the moderators, or anyone else sees it or not - you are calling the man a liar.

I have always said that instinctive shooting is a close range game - 40-50 yards max - instinctive shooting is akin to throwing a ball - the way we aim is essentially the same - and the limitations are nearly the same - with a bow our accuracy is better and our range a bit longer than throwing a ball because we do not have to account for variation in velocity and because the velosity is much greater - our brains are hardwired to subconsciously judge distance to a max of about 40 yards - some can do it a little more but most of us not so much. Also when shooting three fingers under and achoring on the face - at a certain point the bow gets in the way of the target - usually around 50 yards. 

I have never claimed that instinctive shooting had no limitiations or was a long range game - not once. 

I don't recall shooting a deer past 50 yards with my rifle - why would I want to do that with my bow? bowhunting is about getting close.

If I wanted to get into long range archery - I would just put sights on my bow and get an Oly rig and shoot with the best of the long range shooters.


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

I think that there is a difference between TP and a ten year old not being able to hit the mark


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## MGF (Oct 27, 2012)

steve morley said:


> When I started playing with aerial targets I started out this way and had a really hard time as they shot felt rushed and awkward, once I figured the target is tracked (aimed) the moment its launched and still aimed after the arrow strikes it started to make real sense to me (even with static targets) and I actually felt I had all the time in the world to make the shot, i.e no rushing or panic to hit the target before it left its flight window of opportunity.


Could you elaborate on that a little? Aerial targets are another interest of mine but I stink at it. LOL


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## steve morley (Dec 24, 2005)

I concluded that one can consciously focus on a target with intent to hit the mark but the actual aiming is a small window oportunity within that time frame (1 sec at most)and it is something for the subconscious to deal with, I think if one tries to focus too long on the aim, concentration breaks down and other parts of the sequence/form suffer, in a lot of cases a mental block or an incorrect trigger reaction that can lead to TP.

When shooting stationary Field/3D targets I have intent on where I want the arrow to go from the moment I look at the target and I maintain that intent till after the arrow hits, the actual aim is run in my shot sequence in autopilot, I feel over aiming will break that concentration on the intended mark and likely the shot sequence which all lead into control issues if left unchecked.


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

I agree 100000% with what Steve just said


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## itbeso (Jul 6, 2005)

sharpbroadhead said:


> Bigjono - Rick Welch has REPEATEDLy stated that he is not a gap shooter that he is an instinctive shotoer, all of his students - many of which went on to become World Champions themselves maintain that Rick is an instinctive shooter and teaches instinctive shooting - yet you, and I quote: "I still maintain that Mr Welch was doing a form of gapping when I saw him" - whether you, the moderators, or anyone else sees it or not - you are calling the man a liar.
> 
> I have always said that instinctive shooting is a close range game - 40-50 yards max - instinctive shooting is akin to throwing a ball - the way we aim is essentially the same - and the limitations are nearly the same - with a bow our accuracy is better and our range a bit longer than throwing a ball because we do not have to account for variation in velocity and because the velosity is much greater - our brains are hardwired to subconsciously judge distance to a max of about 40 yards - some can do it a little more but most of us not so much. Also when shooting three fingers under and achoring on the face - at a certain point the bow gets in the way of the target - usually around 50 yards.
> 
> ...


Sharp, not to be argumentative, but how can you teach someone to shoot instinctively? That whole concept sounds contradictory. By the way, I shoot instinctive only.


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## itbeso (Jul 6, 2005)

Bigjono said:


> You get me wrong SB, I do not decry anyone who does what they do well, I accept that you are a great shoot using your method, I still maintain that Mr Welch was doing a form of gapping when I saw him and I have never heard of the other guys you mentioned so would not dream of commenting.
> I was interested about your story of the 55yd turkey, doesn't that back up what's been said about the restrictions of instinctive shooting, it doesn't lend itself to groups at longer distances.
> I am actually more concerned with reading about TP though, it doesn't only affect the ultra competitive but I agree that makes you more prone to it. I hope a collection of good archers keep this thread going and maybe come up with some solutions and ideas that would help me. Even my 10 year old daughter got it and gave up the sport.


Jon, I shoot instinctively.


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## itbeso (Jul 6, 2005)

steve morley said:


> I concluded that one can consciously focus on a target with intent to hit the mark but the actual aiming is a small window oportunity within that time frame (1 sec at most)and it is something for the subconscious to deal with, I think if one tries to focus too long on the aim, concentration breaks down and other parts of the sequence/form suffer, in a lot of cases a mental block or an incorrect trigger reaction that can lead to TP.
> 
> When shooting stationary Field/3D targets I have intent on where I want the arrow to go from the moment I look at the target and I maintain that intent till after the arrow hits, the actual aim is run in my shot sequence in autopilot, I feel over aiming will break that concentration on the intended mark and likely the shot sequence which all lead into control issues if left unchecked.


Steve, I shoot Instinctively


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## itbeso (Jul 6, 2005)

MGF said:


> Could you elaborate on that a little? Aerial targets are another interest of mine but I stink at it. LOL


Mgf, I shoot Instinctively


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## itbeso (Jul 6, 2005)

benofthehood said:


> Fair enough , Ken ... we'll have to disagree to disagree on those with TP vs poor form ...
> 
> cheers
> Ben


Ben, I shoot Instinctively


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

You teach instinctive shooting - by teaching proper form, how to focus on the target, and to trust one's subconscious - you can teach someone - or help them understand how to surrender the shot to the subconscious and how the subconscious mind works in relation to archery, etc...

Any instinctive archer will tell you that one of the most diffcult things to master about instinctive shooting is to consistently and completely surrender the aim to the subconscious. We like to interfere with this - we think if a target is farther we have to aim higher, or whatever. 

Learning to allow for a subconsious release is good - learning to follow through and keep your bow arm up is good - learning different ways of developing a consistent anchor is good - and all of these things are taught by Welch and contribute to good instinctive shooting.

Instinctive shooting refers to the aim - not the form.


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## 2413gary (Apr 10, 2008)

I helped a young man learn to shoot instinctive after about 3 months he got target panic so bad he could not get to full draw without the shot going off. He is 11 years old now target panic is like cancer it doesn't care how old you are or what style you shoot. I beleive it is the antisapitaion of the shot going off. this all happens when we aim I don't care how you aim. weather it be with a sight or instinctive or gapping. Its all about the aiming nothing more. But the aiming effects the rest of the shot. I can prove this by having some one with TP standing close and shooting with their eyes closed. after about three or four shots they smooth out and shot just happens. move them back open their eyes wham its right back. For all who don't beleive me I challenge you to try what I am telling you. don't just sit here and tell me I'm wrong prove me wrong. Take the challenge. I have fought target panic for 20 plus years I am sure that makes me a expert just ask all the guys that I shoot against. Some days I'm the bug some days I'm the windshield.

My name is Gary McCain and I have target panic


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

btw - what is with all these posts saying: "i shoot instinctively" I think saying it once would be enough to make whatever sarcastic point you are trying to make and to try to derail this into another argument.


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## itbeso (Jul 6, 2005)

sharpbroadhead said:


> btw - what is with all these posts saying: "i shoot instinctively" I think saying it once would be enough to make whatever sarcastic point you are trying to make and to try to derail this into another argument.


The "sarcastic " point I was making is that I repeatedly stated that I was an Instinctive shooter. Is it true, not a chance, but I did repeatedly state it so I'm sure you believe it. Referencing post # 43 in this thread.


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

sharpbroadhead said:


> Bigjono - Rick Welch has REPEATEDLy stated that he is not a gap shooter that he is an instinctive shotoer, all of his students - many of which went on to become World Champions themselves maintain that Rick is an instinctive shooter and teaches instinctive shooting - yet you, and I quote: "I still maintain that Mr Welch was doing a form of gapping when I saw him" - whether you, the moderators, or anyone else sees it or not - *you are calling the man a liar.*


Not necessarily!!!

If they're thinking anything like me...they believe you think you are aiming Instinctively based on what you believe Instinctive Aiming is and involves.

I believe...if you say you are aiming totally Instinctively...you truly believe you are...and you are NOT lying!

Some of us...just don't share your exact definition of Instinctive Aiming and how to execute it.



sharpbroadhead said:


> Also when shooting three fingers under and achoring on the face - at a certain point the bow gets in the way of the target - usually around 50 yards.


Absolutely...and what happens consciously to an archer when that happens and why? 

Ray :shade:


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## Jim Casto Jr (Aug 20, 2002)

I know it’s over simplifying, but I think target panic, in whatever form it takes, is nothing more than a short-circuit of the mind (trying to alleviate stress to the body) and brought on by the anticipation of an undesirable outcome. So…. there…. :^)


To paraphrase something I read on one of these forums: Target panic only afflicts goal (hitting the mark/burning a hole) oriented people. It never afflicts task (mechanics of the shot/sequence/form) oriented people. It may, or may not be true, but it’s applicable in my case.

So… Ray may be right, in that, we’re all wired differently, and what cure will work for the goal oriented person may not work for the task oriented person. I know one thing for sure…. I wouldn’t wish the darn stuff on anyone.

Now to this constant debate about Rick Welch… 

I’m quite comfortable acknowledging that he “is” an instinctive shooter. I’ve watch his commercial video’s and seen several other YouTube video’s of him. He discusses his sight picture, and promotes consistent form. I have no doubt that he acquires his sight picture, lets his subconscious set his very solid bow arm, and performs his shot flawlessly.

Me? I acquire my sight picture, and allow my experience to set a gap between my arrow and the mark. I feel it rather than control it and I never think in terms of how many inches at a certain distance—I just let it happen. I call myself an indirect gapping aimer. 

The only difference I see in what he does, compared to what I do is; he’s a WHOLE lot better at it. :^)


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## vabowdog (Dec 13, 2007)

Now I'm really confused!!!! I thought I shot gap or pick a point but now I think I shoot instinktive!!!

These posts really confuse me....

Dewayne


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

Jim Casto Jr said:


> So… Ray may be right, in that, we’re all wired differently, and what cure will work for the goal oriented person may not work for the task oriented person.


:thumbs_up :wink:

Target Panic is exactly what the name implies. An archer panicing over something to do with the target. If someone wants to basically know what TP is...just look up panic.

The symtoms can vary, the triggers and causes that can lead an archer to getting TP can vary and the cures can vary from archer to archer.

Whatever the cure ends up being for a specific archer...the archer will no longer be panicing over the target :wink: There will be no negative anxiety that will be effecting the shot in a negative way.

Ray :shade:


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## Greysides (Jun 10, 2009)

There's a fellow I know that's quite sure he shoots in-stink-tive.

As are his shooting partners.

He blames his diet.


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## Jimmy Blackmon (Sep 9, 2010)

Look I'm not trying to pick a fight, but you put up info that just isn't completely true so I feel compelled to point it out. The decision to go to Twin Oaks was made after the first year. **** Rapids was not being considered at that point. The move to Twin Oaks was a wonderful move for us as an organization. We seriously considered **** Rapids as we debated where to go after Twin Oaks, but we decided to keep it more centered on the shooting population vs. that far Northwest. To reach west we will have our first CA shoot this year and hope to institute 2-3 more TRAD only shoots next year all across the U.S. 

Comptons is not nearly the largest trad shoot in the U.S. Denton Hill dwarfs that and all other rendezvous type shoots. 

You've stated that you have never had TP and you shoot with very few competitive trad archers other than the **** Rapids shoot and TRAD Worlds when you can make it yet you speak with authority on the subject. Many of us spend a lot of time with other recurve and longbow shooters at shoots all over the country and so we have a lot of experience with them. When you are open to help them they ask for advice to help in terms of TP form and everything else under the sun. You've stated that snap shooting is not TP. I concur. But what you have not dealt with is folks that snap shoot because they can not draw the bow to anchor even if their life depended on it. You open say you've not encountered these people nor other instinctive shooters who have TP, but Ken, just because you have not encountered them does not mean that they do not exist or that what we are saying is untrue. I'm sorry you live in a somewhat isolated area and are not able to attend more of these gatherings and get exposed to a lot of other things in archery, but we do and they are very real. Don't be defensive about this. It's not personal. I can't overstate that I am not putting you down or trying to make you look bad in any way. I'm just trying to tell you that many of us interact with literally hundreds of shooters and openly discuss a wide range of archery topics. I've told you for about 5 or 6 years now, just like Bigjono said, that you are a great archer who doesn't use the arrow to aim and that if you would open your aperture to various other styles of aiming you might very well be the next David Hughes of archery. You might win everything around. Just because you learn to see the arrow and use it as a reference doesn't mean you lose your ability to shoot instinctively. I can shoot aerials. I shoot rabbits and don't set a gap. Byron Ferguson is a gapper and shoots aspirin in the air. 

Almost everyone in these threads began shooting as you shoot and then tried other things. Now they can use a variety of tools as the situation dictates. We are not slaves to a certain formula. There is a huge psychological side to this sport if you want to become the best archer YOU can become. When you are in a high pressure situation a solid shot sequence and an aiming system is good to have to reduce the anxiety. We all experience pressure and stress to a different degree based on personality. We're not going to change each others personality and we shouldn't try to, but we can offer tried and proven tools that help to deal with said stress. Having a system to fall back on is one of those tools. Some people can relax and turn the shot over to the subconscious with no problem but most can't. We are not talking about the exceptions to the rule ie. Ricky. You point out a few exceptions but the vast majority of folks out there averaging 8+ per target are using some sort of system.


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## Matt_Potter (Apr 13, 2010)

Guys - in an effort to further derail this thread - I'll say we all aim instinctively/sub consciously we just use different methods to get our bow arm into position to adjust our trajectory. 

When I bring my shot to conclusion, while string-walking, my sole focus is the spot I want to hit I hold this focus until the arrow hits the spot. I am not looking at the arrow tip at all when I bring my shot to conclusion in fact most times I would say once I have set my arm I don't see the arrow tip at all (sound familiar) - I bring the shot to conclusion EXACTLY the same way when I use gap or instinctive to set my arm. So in my mind all this how do you aim debate is silly cause we all aim the same we just set up for the shot differently.

Jimmy

I was typing while you posted great post

Matt


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## steve morley (Dec 24, 2005)

*"Almost everyone in these threads began shooting as you shoot and then tried other things. Now they can use a variety of tools as the situation dictates. We are not slaves to a certain formula."*

Only the formula of good form, great post Jimmy :thumbs_up


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## Bigjono (Apr 21, 2009)

sharpbroadhead said:


> Bigjono - Rick Welch has REPEATEDLy stated that he is not a gap shooter that he is an instinctive shotoer, all of his students - many of which went on to become World Champions themselves maintain that Rick is an instinctive shooter and teaches instinctive shooting - yet you, and I quote: "I still maintain that Mr Welch was doing a form of gapping when I saw him" - whether you, the moderators, or anyone else sees it or not - you are calling the man a liar.
> 
> I have always said that instinctive shooting is a close range game - 40-50 yards max - instinctive shooting is akin to throwing a ball - the way we aim is essentially the same - and the limitations are nearly the same - with a bow our accuracy is better and our range a bit longer than throwing a ball because we do not have to account for variation in velocity and because the velosity is much greater - our brains are hardwired to subconsciously judge distance to a max of about 40 yards - some can do it a little more but most of us not so much. Also when shooting three fingers under and achoring on the face - at a certain point the bow gets in the way of the target - usually around 50 yards.
> 
> ...


To me he looked like he was gapping as well as instinctive shooting. I can't see through another mans eyes so won't say anyone's a liar, I will leave that up to others, I can only say what it looked like to me.


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## Bigjono (Apr 21, 2009)

sharpbroadhead said:


> I think that there is a difference between TP and a ten year old not being able to hit the mark


Don't tell me what's going on with my own daughter, are you really that arrogant. It had nothing to do with hitting the kill. She was 10, won the UK champs then got an attack of nerves after everyone kept telling her she was the next big thing. Within three months she couldn't keep hold of the string past 3/4 draw, got demoralized and ended up quitting. Oh and she was instinctive due to the fact that telling her it was 30m away meant nothing to her so I guess instinctive shooters can get TP after all eh.


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

Jimmy - I mentioned **** Rapids to both Ken Watckins, Lee Vivian, Sean Callanan, Rick Welch, Rod Jenkins and a few others at the first IBO Trad Worlds - I don't even think you were there - so where you think I am not telling the truth is beyond me. Regarding Comptons - Comptons bills themsleves as the largest archery gathering in the world - I have never been there - I just stated what they state.

Regarding trad archers - I meet and shoot with trad archers all over the country and have been for decades - now because I have never had target panic - I have no right to an opinion on it - LOL - that is too funny - I have never cheated on my wife either - but I still think it is wrong and evil to do so. I have never drank poison either, but I know it is not good to do so.

I think you are really making a broad assumption to claim that almost everyone began instinctive - because that is simply not true - there are lots of guys who began gap shooting right from the start - LOTs - in fact - Byron Ferguson teaches guys to begin by gapping and to work towards instinctive - to GROW towards instinctive - the opposite of what you claim.

The reality is good archers should work toward total instinctive shooting - their form, their aim, everything being totally subconscious - but I feel that you have it backwards and think that to grow in archery one should move away from subconsious aiming and shooting - when in reality the opposite is true - one should move towards and prefect the whole shot to be subconsious.

Once again - if all these guys started like me and moved to gap and other conscious aiming - it seems to be a disaster for most of them - since instinctive shooters can out shoot the vast majority of them - as is evidenced by the handful of guys that shoot instinctively at the Worlds that are beating the majority of gap shooters.


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## steve morley (Dec 24, 2005)

sharpbroadhead said:


> Regarding Comptons - Comptons bills themsleves as the largest archery gathering in the world .


How many would that be?



sharpbroadhead said:


> I think you are really making a broad assumption to claim that almost everyone began instinctive - because that is simply not true - there are lots of guys who began gap shooting right from the start - LOTs - in fact - Byron Ferguson teaches guys to begin by gapping and to work towards instinctive - to GROW towards instinctive - the opposite of what you claim.


In the UK at least that was my experience that many started off Insinctively, it was regarded as the easiest method to learn but the hardest to master




sharpbroadhead said:


> Once again - if all these guys started like me and moved to gap and other conscious aiming - it seems to be a disaster for most of them - since instinctive shooters can out shoot the vast majority of them - as is evidenced by the handful of guys that shoot instinctively at the Worlds that are beating the majority of gap shooters.


You judge by only one type of short range shooting which in the big picture of the Archery world is a very small arena, if you looked at the bigger picture you would see something quite different


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## Jimmy Blackmon (Sep 9, 2010)

"I think you are really making a broad assumption to claim that almost everyone began instinctive - because that is simply not true - there are lots of guys who began gap shooting right from the start - LOTs - in fact - Byron Ferguson teaches guys to begin by gapping and to work towards instinctive - to GROW towards instinctive - the opposite of what you claim.

The reality is good archers should work toward total instinctive shooting - their form, their aim, everything being totally subconscious - but I feel that you have it backwards and think that to grow in archery one should move away from subconsious aiming and shooting - when in reality the opposite is true - one should move towards and prefect the whole shot to be subconsious."

See Ken here is where you and I can't communicate. Ben stated over and over above that he is an instinctive archer. Rod Jenkins turns it over to the subconscious - instinctive. I am an instinctive archer as well. We concur with you. We learn to gap scientifically and soon it becomes natural. We don't have to measure inches because our brain tells us it's right. You've heard me talk about the "sight picture." We see the whole thing including the arrow, the shelf, the target et al and then we shoot. It becomes natural. We agree 100% with you. 

But in the above post you mention "good archers" and to you that is a very small select group. We say open that group to everyone else...even those who see the arrow in their peripheral vision.

"Once again - if all these guys started like me and moved to gap and other conscious aiming - it seems to be a disaster for most of them - since instinctive shooters can out shoot the vast majority of them - as is evidenced by the handful of guys that shoot instinctively at the Worlds that are beating the majority of gap shooters." Ken, come on now. Sean and Scott would not have been in the top 10 in Recurve class and that is what they were shooting - same stake with 60# bow. You are really trying to skew and stretch to make such a statement and you know it. Don't let your emotion get out of hand.


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## Jimmy Blackmon (Sep 9, 2010)

steve morley said:


> How many would that be?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Denton Hill claims they get about 5,000. It's a lot.


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## J. Wesbrock (Dec 17, 2003)

Steve,

I've been to every Comptons rendezvous since 2001. I've been a member of their organization since 2003 (if I recall correctly). I have never once seen them advertise their rendezvous as the largest archery gathering in the world (or even in this country), so I'm not sure where Ken came up with that statement. It's a great time -- kind of like hanging out with a few thousand friends who all shoot stickbows.


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## steve morley (Dec 24, 2005)

I would like to add that these top Instinctive shots you mention if they suddenly decided to try Gap method they would still be in the top running at IBOs and visa versa for the Gap shooters if they went Instinctive, because its not only the aiming method that makes them great shooters, its raw talent, a strong mental attitude to tourney shooting and the sheer determination of not quitting when most others would.

It is more about the character and hard work they put in, that goes towards making a top shooter. 

From my experience Gap is more popular only because it is easy to learn/maintain, Instinct is less complex than Gap to learn but most find it a lot harder to master to a high level, this is why you see so few good instinctive shots in tourney, if you can set you Gaps for short range 3D shooting then Instinct no longer has an advantage over Gap. I just a new Dryad Orion, Ive set it up for WA3D with a 35y point on and gaps off shelf plate for under 20y, first day out at Everglades course I wasnt out the kill zone, all I did was put a nock point on and set brace height, no serious work or tuning done as yet.

I was just curious about numbers, Ive been to Denton Hill, I asked Redbow about his trip the the 5 colour tourney in Tibet (no reply yet), from the pictures he showed there looked a lot more than 5,000 there


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## Matt_Potter (Apr 13, 2010)

steve morley said:


> I would like to add that these top Instinctive shots you mention if they suddenly decided to try Gap method they would still be in the top running at IBOs and visa versa for the Gap shooters if they went Instinctive, because its not only the aiming method that makes them great shooters, its raw talent, a strong mental attitude to tourney shooting and the sheer determination of not quitting when most others would.


Steve

That was my point in the earlier post - our labels for aiming systems have less to do with how we aim and more to do with how we set up to begin aiming - we all aim the same.

Matt


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## shedman1 (Jul 10, 2011)

Sorry I'm too lazy to read all the posts, so if anything I say was already posted, sorry. Target panic is all in your head, best way to get over it is to accept that. Shooting at a target with no aiming points, "blank baling" is best way to get over it. Lots of shooting only concentrating on your release is only way to get over it. Don't spend a bunch of money on products said to cut it. I did that and regret every penny spent. Once you move to a target with bullseye, concentrate on bullseye, not so much your pin. #1 thing to remember, it's all in your head, you can get over it! Be confident and you will get over it.


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

The only way I would ever say we all aim the same would be if I was talking about aiming Barebow...and aiming Barebow includes many different aiming techniques.

Each Barebow aiming technique has been given a specific name to try and help set it apart from the other Barebow aiming techniques based on the differences with it and the other aiming techniques.

If differences exist with aiming techniques...than they can't ALL be exactly the same even though there are similarities.

A person could say that all issues dealing with TP are the same...BUT...it has been shown that there are different triggers, different symptoms and different cures....depending on what the archer's personality is, their goals and their abilities. It's really not much different with aiming techniques.

Ray :shade:


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## vabowdog (Dec 13, 2007)

"All good archers should work toward instinctive" "grow towards instinctive" that would be like telling a recovering alcoholic he needed to grow towards the local beer joint.

I'm sorry maybe that's what the coaches preach but imtried instinctive 3 times and got tired of shooting deer in the guts,foot,butt,tired of getting my butt kicked at the local 3-Ds by some guy thats barely shooting a 6 point average.

No thanks 

I'll stick to what I know works....


Dewayne


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## MGF (Oct 27, 2012)

steve morley said:


> I concluded that one can consciously focus on a target with intent to hit the mark but the actual aiming is a small window oportunity within that time frame (1 sec at most)and it is something for the subconscious to deal with, I think if one tries to focus too long on the aim, concentration breaks down and other parts of the sequence/form suffer, in a lot of cases a mental block or an incorrect trigger reaction that can lead to TP.
> 
> When shooting stationary Field/3D targets I have intent on where I want the arrow to go from the moment I look at the target and I maintain that intent till after the arrow hits, the actual aim is run in my shot sequence in autopilot, I feel over aiming will break that concentration on the intended mark and likely the shot sequence which all lead into control issues if left unchecked.


Thanks.


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## Greenarrow1 (Jan 17, 2008)

I was watching "Tim Strickland's Approach to Traditional Bow Shooting" and his opinion on TP is caused by archers being result oriented. He suggest that one way to avoid TP is to be task oriented, i.e. shot setup and the results will take care of themselves.
Sharp, in Rick Welch's "The Accuracy Factory" he exbut isplains his aiming method and I believe it was split vision because he says that he focuses on the target but is aware of the arrow.


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## Bigjono (Apr 21, 2009)

How many we're at Twin Oaks this year Jimmy, it looked like 500 to 600 total to me but hard to tell.


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## Bigjono (Apr 21, 2009)

BLACK WOLF said:


> Not necessarily!!!
> 
> If they're thinking anything like me...they believe you think you are aiming Instinctively based on what you believe Instinctive Aiming is and involves.
> 
> ...


That was my point Ray.


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

Bigjono said:


> That was my point Ray.


I had a feeling it was :wink:

Ray :shade:


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## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

shedman1 said:


> Sorry I'm too lazy to read all the posts, so if anything I say was already posted, sorry. Target panic is all in your head, best way to get over it is to accept that. Shooting at a target with no aiming points, "blank baling" is best way to get over it. Lots of shooting only concentrating on your release is only way to get over it. Don't spend a bunch of money on products said to cut it. I did that and regret every penny spent. Once you move to a target with bullseye, concentrate on bullseye, not so much your pin. #1 thing to remember, it's all in your head, you can get over it! Be confident and you will get over it.


I love it when members who don't post often "post"..cause sometimes like now?..it adds a sense of clarity..a "fresh perspective" if you will..and as far as i'm concerned?...shedman1 nailed it here..i think i'm at least partially guilty of starting this firestorm rash of TP threads we've been experiencing here lately as i posted a thread where it became glarringly apparent to me that as long as i aimed in a "burn a hole in it" instinctive fashion?..it seemed to keep my acute case of TP at bay...where conversly?..the moment i start obcessing about holding pinpoints on pinpoints?..here it comes again..and while i've had numerous top shots tell me that one has nothing to do with the other?..(style of aiming vs tp)...they are not the ones that have it...yet oddly enough?..what's the most popularly recommended cure for those archers suffering TP?...

"Blank Bail"...in other words?..take the target away so there's nothing to "AIM" at. :laugh:

about a month back?...i put a set of pin sights on my excel...just as an experiment...and shot several groups where the shafts were crushed together...and i was almost in a state of euphoria when?..here it came...back again....started out by about group #4 with struggling to get the pin EXACTLY where i wanted it..and by group 5?..my bowarm was locking up so badly?..where ever it was when i hit full draw/anchor?..my arm was frozen in place..with a 32# target bow..and the last shot?..i was proud that i did manage to let down...then i wrapped it up and haven't touched that bow since..didn't even take the sight back off..it's still hanging in the same place i hung it the day that happened...hasn't moved.

Me?..i moved right back up to 3-5yds blank bailing (w/ 42# bows) for the month that followed..and doing great..then got bold and stepped back to 8yds...i'm at 10 on a good night now and happy as a lark as long as i aim instictively.

I've had my 15 minutes of fame 20 years back..and for me?..TP hit about 2 years after i pretty much peaked my skills..and in hindsight?...i believe the reason it "hit" is because i didn't want to accept the wall that my skills hit...and aggressively and vigorously attempted to push myself beyond that point..i recall that i would get seriously aggravated if i didn't do better than the last time "everytime"..and i'd be miserable after any and every "bad session"..anger at myself..followed by some serious levels of depression...so in reality?...and experience and hindsight?..i think TP is a good thing...as imho?..i've come to believe that it's the minds way of protecting itself from an owner who insists on pushing it well beyond reasonable expectations.

Gut level honesty?: TP 'IS" what caused me to mothball my bows 2 decades ago...and took away from me the sport i lived for..but long before TP struck me?..archery had stopped being the fun it once was..and had instead become a pride filled ego trip who's high/rush was.."Besting Other Archers"...and i can recall a time when "Just" coming in 1st in my class of BHFSL (compound/fingers) wasn't good enough for me..as once i got my first taste of posting a "High Overall Score"?...besting even the open class release shooters?..if i wasn't in the top 3 overall?..it was a bad day/performance...and i'd mentally beat myself up about it. 

So for me to answer the original question of the title of this thread being..."How to AVOID TP?"...don't do like i did...lighten up..keep it fun...and realize..the real winners are the ones who can Keep It Fun and continue to enjoy it.

Me?...i'm happy to make a slow FUN return...in the best way i know possible..shooting stickbows instinctively with an emphasis on form and execution and scores be [email protected]! :laugh:

And if that lil diatribe i typed out above prevents even one archer from suffering what i have?..then?..

MERRY CHRISTMAS!...it was well worth typing. 

L8R, Bill. :cool2:


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

Greenarrow1 said:


> I was watching "Tim Strickland's Approach to Traditional Bow Shooting" and his opinion on TP is caused by archers being result oriented. He suggest that one way to avoid TP is to be task oriented, i.e. shot setup and the results will take care of themselves.


Great advice! :thumbs_up



Greenarrow1 said:


> Sharp, in Rick Welch's "The Accuracy Factory" he exbut isplains his aiming method and I believe it was split vision because he says that he focuses on the target but is aware of the arrow.


If it's the same portion of the video I saw...it wouldn't be Split Vision as in the aiming technique Howard Hill described. The video I saw...Rick basically demonstrates what his sight picture looks like and it's NO DIFFERENT than how many experienced Gap shooters see their sight picture.

Ray :shade:


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

JINKSTER said:


> So for me to answer the original question of the title of this thread being..."How to AVOID TP?"...don't do like i did...lighten up..keep it fun...and realize..the real winners are the ones who can Keep It Fun and continue to enjoy it.


:thumbs_up

Eliminate the anxiety...you eliminate TP!

The cures and steps to that are a varied as are the archers that get it.

Ray :shade:


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## Jonsimoneau (Dec 14, 2012)

I agree with onesharpbroadhead on this. Snap shooting is mostly just a way most people have been taught to shoot. I think that target panic can lead to snap shooting but more than likely its just a form issue. As an example. I took lessons from Rick Welch. I was a snap shooter when I went to him. The very next day I was no longer a snap shooter and have not been a snap shooter since and that was six years ago. It did not take months or years to break it. I simply changed my form.


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## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

Jonsimoneau said:


> I agree with onesharpbroadhead on this. Snap shooting is mostly just a way most people have been taught to shoot. I think that target panic can lead to snap shooting but more than likely its just a form issue. As an example. I took lessons from Rick Welch. I was a snap shooter when I went to him. The very next day I was no longer a snap shooter and have not been a snap shooter since and that was six years ago. It did not take months or years to break it. I simply changed my form.


That's because..you didn't have TP...snap-shooting is not TP and TP is not a form issue..form issues are physical in nature...

TP is a mental ailment.


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## Jimmy Blackmon (Sep 9, 2010)




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## Bigjono (Apr 21, 2009)

Jimmy Blackmon said:


> View attachment 1543674


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## BarneySlayer (Feb 28, 2009)

sharpbroadhead said:


> Byron Ferguson teaches guys to begin by gapping and to work towards instinctive - to GROW towards instinctive - the opposite of what you claim.


This is interesting, in that I think you guys, in many ways, agree. I won't claim to speak for either of you, but for instance, in Jimmy's video explaining gap shooting, he says that after you do it for awhile, it will become automatic, like you don't even have to think about it.

I was talking to Sandy at the Gene Foster about how she sets the gap, and she said something that surprised me along this route. She said that she 'feels' the gap. She knows it's there, but she said that she didn't actually guess the yardage and then set the gap. If I understood her correctly, she just concentrates on making a good shot.


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## vabowdog (Dec 13, 2007)

That's exactly how Rick looked at the ASA Classic this year the arrow tucked right under his eye...



Dewayne


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## Bebe (Mar 18, 2006)

BarneySlayer said:


> This is interesting, in that I think you guys, in many ways, agree. I won't claim to speak for either of you, but for instance, in Jimmy's video explaining gap shooting, he says that after you do it for awhile, it will become automatic, like you don't even have to think about it.
> 
> I was talking to Sandy at the Gene Foster about how she sets the gap, and she said something that surprised me along this route. She said that she 'feels' the gap. She knows it's there, but she said that she didn't actually guess the yardage and then set the gap. If I understood her correctly, she just concentrates on making a good shot.


That is so cool Barney, I really want to hang out with Sandy and get some pearls of wisdom from her! Here is something I just found on the internet. Written by one of our contemporaries.



nova2 said:


> When I chose the road of "Gap Shooting", I thought I was condemned for eternity to walk the path of yardage estimation, slow shots, and cryptic details . This method of aiming the arrow isn't well suited to hunting, where distances are unknown and the tempo of the shot is sometimes varied by the critters walking, running or freezing. Fundamentally, shooting gap correlates a known distance with a known gap between the spot on the target and the arrow point. I have shot the gap method of aiming for some time now and have appreciated the strengths and weaknesses of the system. As I have progressed along the road of the "gap shooting" I have found that the distances and gaps fade to the periphery, to a point where the conscious mind doesn¹t even figure them. Simply by feel and muscle memory, the shot and sight picture are right.
> 
> We as hunting archers like to hone our skills and simplify our wares as we bring them into the forest to take down prey. Granted gap shooting is a cumbersome system to bring into the forest. I propose that gap shooting is a learning tool to teach us to see. Picking a spot is primary. Having a periphery to give reference to the target is secondary. That periphery is the animal, trees, rocks, arrow shaft, bow, whatever is processed by the brain. As we practice gap shooting, it does not shackle us to the chores of calculating and measuring the shot. As a beginner we use our guides and parameters much like we used our fingers to add 3+5=8. As we advance by repetition it becomes an automatic thought similar to knowing that 3 and 5 are 8. Using the "gap" method at 20 yards the gap between the arrow may be 2 inches, yet we can progress to a state of focusing on the spot seeing the periphery and putting the arrow in the kill. No figuring of yardage and gap are required at a conscious level. The mental ruler falls away from the aiming process. What's left is an archer raising his bow by feel and delivering a shot into the vitals.
> 
> Can a gap shooter become an instinctive shot? I think so, if that archer is ready to molt his shrouds and fly into that free spirited shot which ebbs and flows as the water moves through a creek. It may look like instinct that enabled the shooter to place his arrow. But the path will tell that the shot was a result of the years of practice and calculation. Thousands of arrows had been shot as the archer learned, honed and simplified the shot.


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

BarneySlayer said:


> She said that she 'feels' the gap. She knows it's there, but she said that she didn't actually guess the yardage and then set the gap. If I understood her correctly, she just concentrates on making a good shot.


That is EXACTLY how many experienced Gap shooters aim...and...how many archers who believe they are aiming Totally Instinctively.

Ray :shade:


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## Speck1 (Jul 31, 2012)

I'm missing the point of the pic of Rick?? I have read comments made by you guys about him. What I'm wondering is, if he gap shoots, then why, in a 2 day class, does he never mention the word "aim"?? Aiming method matters not to me. A good shot is a good shot. I don't ask people at tourneys how they shoot, because it doesn't matter to me. Now, I have watched Jimmy's videos on various methods and read alot as well. Nothing that I have seen or read was ever mentioned by Rick. Now, if Rick can take a
newbie, never talk about aiming, never pull out a tape measure or piece of string and in 2 days have that person hitting what they are looking at, what is he teaching? Not meant to be a dig on Jimmy or anybody else, just an honest question. But, alot of you guys say instinctive shooters wear it as a "badge of honor". It seems to me, yall like to pull the badges out anytime Ricks name comes up. Speck


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## Jimmy Blackmon (Sep 9, 2010)

I put it up to show how he sets up for the shot. I believe Rick. I have no reason to doubt but I think he sets the bow up so the arrow is lined up with where he looks so the brain has to do very little to calculate the difference in angle between arrow to target and eye to target. BUT, I know guys who gap and if you ask how they shoot they will say they shoot instinctive because that's how they define it.


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## Speck1 (Jul 31, 2012)

Jimmy Blackmon said:


> I put it up to show how he sets up for the shot. I believe Rick. I have no reason to doubt but I think he sets the bow up so the arrow is lined up with where he looks so the brain has to do very little to calculate the difference in angle between arrow to target and eye to target. BUT, I know guys who gap and if you ask how they shoot they will say they shoot instinctive because that's how they define it.


10-4. Makes sense. Speck


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

Speck1 said:


> I'm missing the point of the pic of Rick??


The pic indicates to me how close his arrow actually is to his eye...which indicates that he is highly likely using it at SOME CONSCIOUS level to aim with.

The closer an object is to an archer's direct line of sight to the target...especially an aiming reference...the more chance the conscious mind has to recognize it.

Many archers that claim they aim Toatally Instinctively also claim a pin sight can be used Totally Instinctively...which just is NOT true when a person understands that different levels of consciousness exist and a low level of conscious awareness regarding an object can seem like they're not consciously recognizing it at all.

There's a direct coorelation to our vision, an object in or near our direct line of sight and our conscious minds.

The longer an object is in front of an archer's direct line of sight...the more likely the conscious mind will recognize it...and if it's an aiming reference...the conscious mind will use it at some level to adjust the aim.



Speck1 said:


> I have read comments made by you guys about him. What I'm wondering is, if he gap shoots, then why, in a 2 day class, does he never mention the word "aim"??


Doesn't Rick suggest that his students setup their bows and make adjustments until the arrows start impacting where that archer naturally points?



Speck1 said:


> I don't ask people at tourneys how they shoot, because it doesn't matter to me.


But many people who want to get better at a particular competition and/or shooting circumstance or are new to the sport will most likely be curious about the techniques of an archer that wins those competitions and/or shoots under the same conditions they hope to shoot accurately in.

What I believe has to stop...are the comments about an archer cheating if they're not aiming Instinctively and how an archer choosing to aim Instinctively is just settling for mediocricy or using it as an excuse for less than perfect shooting.

Ray :shade:


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## Speck1 (Jul 31, 2012)

Ray, if you make adjustments to your bow to make the arrow hit where you are "naturally" pointing, how does that make you a gapper?? Speck


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

Speck1 said:


> Ray, if you make adjustments to your bow to make the arrow hit where you are "naturally" pointing, how does that make you a gapper?? Speck


Oh no...please don't interpret my words as that...and I TOTALLY appreciate you asking me that question before making a full blown assumption.

Adjusting the bow to help an archer hit a target as if they are naturally pointing just makes the aiming process easier in some cases and allows an archer to use less conscious thought in the aiming process at close distance and allows the archer to potentially shoot Totally Instinctively.

It also should be known that just because an archer makes adjustments to their bow to more accurately shoot like they point does NOT automatically make them archers who aim Totally Instinctively.

In many cases it's a matter of just getting the arrow closer to the eye and decreasing an archer's POD to make the aiming process easier at typical bowhunting distances by decreasing or eliminating the gap.

As I said...the closer the arrow will be to an archer's direct line of sight...the more chance the conscious mind will see it and use it to adjust the aim at some level. Concious awareness also increases regarding aiming references the more time an archer holds anchor.

Ray :shade:


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## itbeso (Jul 6, 2005)

Bebe said:


> That is so cool Barney, I really want to hang out with Sandy and get some pearls of wisdom from her! Here is something I just found on the internet. Written by one of our contemporaries.


Larry, some of those statements are the things that make you want to pull your hair out, especially the statements attributed to Sandy. Now I know that Gary is one of the most stubborn archers ever but I don't really know Sandy's psyche. I hope she didn't say that she doesn't judge yardage, just shoots by feel on unmarked shoots. I know Gary says that is the way he shoots and I feel it is his downfall in unmarked shoots. Let's use another example. Does anyone in the world think Levi Morgan would not judge the yardage before he shot. Why would anyone shooting barebow not judge yardage before shooting? Even if you are an instinctive shooter, why would you shoot a target without first judging the yardage? I doubt there is an instinctive shooter in the world who shoots better on unmarked targets than they do on marked. I am a firm believer that you judge the yardage, set your shot for that yardage and shoot the arrow confident that you have everything figured out. That video that we talked about the other week needs to happen sooner than later. Things need to be laid to rest here!


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## Speck1 (Jul 31, 2012)

Ray, understand now and I believe that to be correct. What I don't understand about the whole gap/instinctive argument is that they are learned differently. I also understand that gap shooting over time can become what I do. I learned the hard way. I lost/broke 60 Beman ICS Hunters that first summer. Speck


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

itbeso said:


> Why would anyone shooting barebow not judge yardage before shooting?


Are you asking about someone judgeing yardage consciously by trying to determine the exact yardage by the process of mental calculation or why a bowhunter doesn't necessarily judge yardage the same way and doesn't have much time to think about it at all?

In many cases while bowhunting...there isn't time to mentally calculate the exact yardage other than thinking it's close, medium or long distance. In those circumstances and when an archer has taught themselves to aim Totally Instinctively...yardage estimation becomes Instinctive or as others say...felt within their gut...in the same way some Gap shooters feel their gaps at a lower level of conscious awareness.

It's really no different than how many quaterbacks throw the football to their receivers or how an outfielder throws to second base or home plate. It's felt rather than calculated at a conscious level to the closest yard.

Ray :shade:


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## FORESTGUMP (May 14, 2008)

This is what I have learned from the class. Actually two classes this week on the same subjects.

1. TP is a mental condition. You get it from trying too hard to be 'the best'.
2. Everyone who practices 'alternative aiming methods' are on a learning curve to becoming instinctive.

The more I learn the more it seems reasonable that instinctive shooters should be wearing a 'badge of honor'. Already reached the point that others are trying to reach and no TP disease.


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

Speck1 said:


> What I don't understand about the whole gap/instinctive argument is that they are learned differently.


Yes...but they can end up at the same place...IF...a Gap shooter masters their technique to the point their body responds correctly to their sight picture.

In most cases....a Gap shooter will just shoot at a lower level of conscious awareness as many archers, who believe they are aiming Totally Instinctively.

There's a reason why people often make the comparison with Instinctive Aiming and throwing a ball.

They are basically executed the same way. They both pick and burn a whole into their target with their focus...but allow the body to respond in a fluid motion putting faith into their bodies to respond correctly.

An archer that holds their aim and has their aiming reference close to their direct line of sight...is in most cases...consciously adjusting their sight picture at some level of conscious awareness...which is NOT the exact samething as aiming Totally Instinctively.

For many archers....even archers that use sights....they want to be able to aim at a lower level of conscious awareness so they can focus more on shot execution...but...just because they have lowered their level of conscious awareness as they aim...does NOT mean they are know aiming Totally Instinctively.

Ray :shade:


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## FORESTGUMP (May 14, 2008)

Speck1 said:


> Ray, understand now and I believe that to be correct. What I don't understand about the whole gap/instinctive argument is that they are learned differently. I also understand that gap shooting over time can become what I do. I learned the hard way. I lost/broke 60 Beman ICS Hunters that first summer. Speck


Doggone bud,you should start with a large soft backstop and progress to pinecones,not the other way around.:wink:


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## Speck1 (Jul 31, 2012)

FORESTGUMP said:


> Doggone bud,you should start with a large soft backstop and progress to pinecones,not the other way around.:wink:


Unfortunately, I ain't built that way.lol Speck


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## itbeso (Jul 6, 2005)

BLACK WOLF said:


> Are you asking about someone judgeing yardage consciously by trying to determine the exact yardage by the process of mental calculation or why a bowhunter doesn't necessarily judge yardage the same way and doesn't have much time to think about it at all?
> 
> In many cases while bowhunting...there isn't time to mentally calculate the exact yardage other than thinking it's close, medium or long distance. In those circumstances and when an archer has taught themselves to aim Totally Instinctively...yardage estimation becomes Instinctive or as others say...felt within their gut...in the same way some Gap shooters feel their gaps at a lower level of conscious awareness or mental calculations.
> 
> ...


Ray, I think you are sharp enough ( no pun intended ) to realize that very few throws from the outfield are ever close to being on the money, within 3 or 15 feet is more like it.:teeth:, in the same vein, except for short passes, most passes are put up for the receiver to run under or the quarterback throws to a predetermined location. I don't agree with the constant comparisons between throwing a ball and shooting an arrow. The art of throwing is sought to be perfected by countless hours of practice, and, as is demonstrated on playing fields weekly, the best in the world are hardly perfect at it. The same goes for instinctive shooting, the return on investment is less than from using other aiming methods. In my opinion.


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## FORESTGUMP (May 14, 2008)

itbeso said:


> Ray, I think you are sharp enough ( no pun intended ) to realize that very few throws from the outfield are ever close to being on the money, within 3 or 15 feet is more like it.:teeth:, in the same vein, except for short passes, most passes are put up for the receiver to run under or the quarterback throws to a predetermined location. I don't agree with the constant comparisons between throwing a ball and shooting an arrow. The art of throwing is sought to be perfected by countless hours of practice, and, as is demonstrated on playing fields weekly, the best in the world are hardly perfect at it. The same goes for instinctive shooting, the return on investment is less than from using other aiming methods. In my opinion.



That ROI depends on what one is investing in. If he's a hunter it's good return. No time wasted on guessing distance and looking for a gap.


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## 2413gary (Apr 10, 2008)

It's not my downfall because I shoot instinctive below my point on at unmarked its because I have TARGET PANIC you silly goose. And who is Levi Morgan ?
Gary


itbeso said:


> Larry, some of those statements are the things that make you want to pull your hair out, especially the statements attributed to Sandy. Now I know that Gary is one of the most stubborn archers ever but I don't really know Sandy's psyche. I hope she didn't say that she doesn't judge yardage, just shoots by feel on unmarked shoots. I know Gary says that is the way he shoots and I feel it is his downfall in unmarked shoots. Let's use another example. Does anyone in the world think Levi Morgan would not judge the yardage before he shot. Why would anyone shooting barebow not judge yardage before shooting? Even if you are an instinctive shooter, why would you shoot a target without first judging the yardage? I doubt there is an instinctive shooter in the world who shoots better on unmarked targets than they do on marked. I am a firm believer that you judge the yardage, set your shot for that yardage and shoot the arrow confident that you have everything figured out. That video that we talked about the other week needs to happen sooner than later. Things need to be laid to rest here!


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## sticknstring77 (Nov 7, 2012)

I didn't know what target panic was, and now that I know im nervous im gonna get it! 

Sent from my DROID3 using Tapatalk 2


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

itbeso said:


> Ray, I think you are sharp enough ( no pun intended ) to realize that very few throws from the outfield are ever close to being on the money, within 3 or 15 feet is more like it.


Whether the throw is accrate or not is NOT the point I was making. The point is the comparison of execution and to prove that Instinctive Aiming does in fact exist as a unique aiming technique DIFFERENT from Gap or any other Barebow aiming technique.



itbeso said:


> The same goes for instinctive shooting, the return on investment is less than from using other aiming methods. In my opinion.


In most tournament competitions...ESPECIALLY where targets are set at longer distances...I COMPLETELY agree...BUT...for a bowhunter, who has prepared to take close shots and under some circumstances that require a quick shot...the investment can be meat in the freezer...which can be a bowhunter's primary goal besides a large rack :wink:

Ray :shade:


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## steve morley (Dec 24, 2005)

I get the impression that some of you Instinctive shooters feel this aiming method is a cure for TP in itself and looking for a Gap in the culprit, this just isnt true.

It is true that Gap shooters do try and submit as much as possible of the Gap into the subconscious i.e "Instinctive like" but we do still have an awarness of the arrow/sight picture, I started off as an Instinctive shot (I was a good one winning 3 or 4 National titles) I got TP shooting Instinctively and now Im a good Gap shooter, I can feel the differences between the two methods, these differences are subtle but they are there.

I still multi aim as all unsighted aiming methods have their advantages depending on type of shooting conditions, at times I still have to work hard at keeping TP at bay and it has been like that for the last 12 years, it just never really goes away once you have it, sometimes its a real pain but on the whole it has made me into a better Archer, it made me work at my shooting and understand my mental game and my shooting a lot more. If I do the drills and keep up quality practice time, ingrain a proper shot sequence I have the no TP issues, if I dont keep confidence levels high or get lazy it then becomes a minor problem.


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## itbeso (Jul 6, 2005)

BLACK WOLF said:


> Whether the throw is accrate or not is NOT the point I was making. The point is the comparison of execution and to prove that Instinctive Aiming does in fact exist as a unique aiming technique DIFFERENT from Gap or any other Barebow aiming technique.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Ray, I'll tell you the same thing I just told Gump, Gapping does not equate to a slower shot than an instinctive one. Also,a large rack isn't necessarily limited to a bowhunters goal.:teeth:


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## Jimmy Blackmon (Sep 9, 2010)

Don't get too worried about TP. If you get so bad that you are struggling to hit the target you just buy one of these proximity arrows. Close is good enough.


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## steve morley (Dec 24, 2005)

If youve never experienced TP try this so you can understand our feeling of pressure to hit a little better, park you car behind a 3D and shoot it beyond 30y, even better use the Wifes car :tongue:


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## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

Jimmy Blackmon said:


> Don't get too worried about TP. If you get so bad that you are struggling to hit the target you just buy one of these proximity arrows. Close is good enough.
> View attachment 1543816


:laugh: Jimmy! I bet that would be a real bad time for a wood shaft to break at the shot! :laugh:

it appears he's not real concerned about "spine" either! :laugh:


but what the caption didn't tell you was...

he put that arrow into a 6" opening of a rattlesnake den about 40yds out! :laugh:


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## Wayko (Dec 22, 2011)

Jimmy Blackmon said:


> Don't get too worried about TP. If you get so bad that you are struggling to hit the target you just buy one of these proximity arrows. Close is good enough.
> View attachment 1543816



I used to hold a draw to long, & this is how I learened how to snap shoot...LOL


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

steve morley said:


> It is true that Gap shooters do try and submit as much as possible of the Gap into the subconscious i.e "Instinctive like" but we do still have an awarness of the arrow/sight picture, I can feel the differences between the two methods, these *differences* are subtle but they are there.


:thumbs_up

Ray :shade:


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

itbeso said:


> Gapping does not equate to a slower shot than an instinctive one.


I didn't speak in absolutes. A slower shot CAN equate to Gapping...not DOES.

When a person understands how the mind and body works to execute a movement...it becomes easier to recognize when a person is consciously thinking about how to execute that movement and when a person has put total faith into their bodies ability to respond appropriately to achieve a desired result.



itbeso said:


> Also,a large rack isn't necessarily limited to a bowhunters goal.:teeth:


LOL...I know...it has multiple meaning for me too :wink:

Ray :shade:


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

Jimmy Blackmon said:


> View attachment 1543816


LOL...love that pic.

Does anyone know who the archer is? Actor?

He looks like he's on a set of some movie to me.

Ray :shade:


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## MGF (Oct 27, 2012)

After my most recent slump (may as well call it target panic) I'm thinking I might not have a method to completely avoid it. It's just a one shot at a time thing. Every shot is a new opportunity to screw things up or not. I'm also starting to think that a significant portion of my shot to shot variance, even when I'm shooting well, could be considered target panic so some degree.

I've had several days in a row of really consistent (I'd even say good) shooting. I should probably be saying a prayer, knocking on wood or crossing my fingers but I don't feel another slump coming on. I feel like I can put an arrow where I want it. Cocky, huh?

Yesterday while I was talking to my wife and shooting I even had one pretty lousy shot. The encouraging thing was it didn't rattle me. I knew what I did wrong (not paying attention to what I was doing, for starters) and the next shot was just about perfect. When I'm in a target panic mood, a miss will lead to more misses.

"One shot at a time" may be my new motto.


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## airwolf (Jul 28, 2005)

itbeso said:


> Bob, with all due respect to your school experience, archery is a different nut to crack. You stated that you have never shot competitive archery. I would suggest you take a stickbow down to Las Vegas this year and enter the barebow competition. When the tournament is over, come back on here and tell everyone you performed better there than at home. I have played all major sports at one time or another. Archery has many things unique to it that you won't find elsewhere. Very few people, if any, ever master this sport, I think that is why so many of us stick with it all our lives, looking for a perfection that is probably never going to come. But, it sure is fun, (and frustrating), to keep trying.


great post, I couldnt agree more. very few archers are going to excel at this, some will claim to be great but in reality they are no better then you or me.


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

MGF said:


> "One shot at a time" may be my new motto.


:thumbs_up

That is definitely one of the things an archer should do if they want to avoid TP.

Live in the moment...not in the past nor in the future.

Ray :shade:


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## 2413gary (Apr 10, 2008)

Woody Strode a x football player Turned actor


BLACK WOLF said:


> LOL...love that pic.
> 
> Does anyone know who the archer is? Actor?
> 
> ...


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## Bebe (Mar 18, 2006)

If memory serves me correct the late and "Archery Great" Doreen Wilber shot 3-D unmarked rounds with what we might consider an intuitive style. Doreen had a sense of the distance and gap but didn't outwardly calculate and measure her gaps. She also was known for her splendid show of sportsmanship and enjoyed cooking and entertaining house guests. 

As a side note: I'd like to address the OP and reiterate itbeso in regards to Doreen's rock solid form. In trusting her form and her shot, she shot with the strength and confidence as well as the faith in each shot. There was no second guessing she just did it. I'm inspired.


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## itbeso (Jul 6, 2005)

FORESTGUMP said:


> This is what I have learned from the class. Actually two classes this week on the same subjects.
> 
> 1. TP is a mental condition. You get it from trying too hard to be 'the best'.
> 2. Everyone who practices 'alternative aiming methods' are on a learning curve to becoming instinctive.
> ...


Forest, I think you just set barebow archery back about 50 years with those statements. I hope you were trying to be tongue in cheek.:tongue:


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## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

itbeso said:


> Forest, *I think you just set barebow archery back about 50 years with those statements.* I hope you were trying to be tongue in cheek.:tongue:


if he did?..

*I'M CALLING IT A "GOOD THING!"* :laugh:


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## itbeso (Jul 6, 2005)

JINKSTER said:


> if he did?..
> 
> *I'M CALLING IT A "GOOD THING!"* :laugh:


Jinks, I don't care how many times you disagree with me, I still love Ya!:teeth:


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## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

itbeso said:


> Jinks, I don't care how many times you disagree with me, I still love Ya!:teeth:


I love you too man..but in the most plutonic of ways! :laugh:

i will however admit though...i think of you often...everytime i remind myself to grab my string at a 30deg angle.


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## itbeso (Jul 6, 2005)

:jksign:


JINKSTER said:


> I love you too man..but in the most plutonic of ways! :laugh:
> 
> i will however admit though...i think of you often...everytime i remind myself to grab my string at a 30deg angle.


It's all good, except when people try to shoot instinctive.:lol3::jksign:


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## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

itbeso said:


> :jksign:
> 
> It's all good, except when people try to shoot instinctive.:lol3::jksign:


you forgot to add the words "who are not there yet" to the end of your sentence above....and i'm not kidding. :laugh:


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## FORESTGUMP (May 14, 2008)

JINKSTER said:


> you forgot to add the words "who are not there yet" to the end of your sentence above....and i'm not kidding. :laugh:



:banana: Just tellin it straight.


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## FORESTGUMP (May 14, 2008)

itbeso said:


> Forest, I think you just set barebow archery back about 50 years with those statements. I hope you were trying to be tongue in cheek.:tongue:



If anyone got set back,then they probably don't deserve advancement anyway.

1. That TP disease is certainly not a physical condition. It seems to be something that affects competitive people more than others,the more they strive to beat you or anyone else the more they become afraid of failing to do so and fall apart at the seams. Reminds me of little kids who can't stand it when they don't get their way. The same behavior in adult sized folks stands a chance of being mental,imo of course.
2. I read posts every day saying that many people start learning to shoot by paying attention to the gap and as their skill progresses they pay less and less attention to the 'gap'. It slowly becomes a non issue,they know it's there but don't really use it any more. Eventually forgetting all about it and becoming more instinctive. I think that describes a learning curve quite well.


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## FORESTGUMP (May 14, 2008)

BLACK WOLF said:


> :thumbs_up
> 
> That is definitely one of the things an archer should do if they want to avoid TP.
> 
> ...



Only shot that counts,this one right here right now.

MGF, I don't remember what your particular shooting goals are but if you want to be able to make the one opportunity shot on an animal you will need to condition yourself for that situation. I always start any shooting session with a 'cold shot'. Sometimes I make a point of only shooting that one arrow and repeat several times a day. It will show you real quick if you have what it takes for the quick one shot scenario in the woods. 
Apparently you shoot a lot,maybe even too much. Don't become obsessed with trying to be perfect all the time unless your goals are leaning towards the competitive side. Then all bets are off.


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## itbeso (Jul 6, 2005)

FORESTGUMP said:


> If anyone got set back,then they probably don't deserve advancement anyway.
> 
> 1. That TP disease is certainly not a physical condition. It seems to be something that affects competitive people more than others,the more they strive to beat you or anyone else the more they become afraid of failing to do so and fall apart at the seams. Reminds me of little kids who can't stand it when they don't get their way. The same behavior in adult sized folks stands a chance of being mental,imo of course.
> 2. I read posts every day saying that many people start learning to shoot by paying attention to the gap and as their skill progresses they pay less and less attention to the 'gap'. It slowly becomes a non issue,they know it's there but don't really use it any more. Eventually forgetting all about it and becoming more instinctive. I think that describes a learning curve quite well.


I guess it depends on what skill level you want to be on. Forest. I can guarantee you that the gap is my only focus when shooting nonsight and anyone who says that they don't use it anymore doesn't progress their skill level. The more focus on the gap, the better the skill level will become. I honestly believe that the current and past trad shooters have no idea just how accurate they could be with the proper aiming system and the right person to coach them in it. That is just my opinion. Then of course there is the TP thing. Anyone can say they don't have it or have never gotten it, of course those would be the archers who have never excelled in any archery competition. Most archers are honest enough to admit to their frailties, then there are those who don't have any faults, other than not being able to hit the broadside of the proverbial barn. Again, just my opinion


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## Dewey3 (May 6, 2012)

FORESTGUMP said:


> If anyone got set back,then they probably don't deserve advancement anyway.
> 
> 1. That TP disease is certainly not a physical condition. It seems to be something that affects competitive people more than others,the more they strive to beat you or anyone else the more they become afraid of failing to do so and fall apart at the seams. Reminds me of little kids who can't stand it when they don't get their way. The same behavior in adult sized folks stands a chance of being mental,imo of course.
> 2. I read posts every day saying that many people start learning to shoot by paying attention to the gap and as their skill progresses they pay less and less attention to the 'gap'. It slowly becomes a non issue,they know it's there but don't really use it any more. Eventually forgetting all about it and becoming more instinctive. I think that describes a learning curve quite well.


:thumbs_up

I think that "target panic" can sometimes be a convenient excuse for being over-bowed or not learning a good form.
As you say, TP is mental, not physical.


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## MGF (Oct 27, 2012)

FORESTGUMP said:


> Only shot that counts,this one right here right now.
> 
> MGF, I don't remember what your particular shooting goals are but if you want to be able to make the one opportunity shot on an animal you will need to condition yourself for that situation. I always start any shooting session with a 'cold shot'. Sometimes I make a point of only shooting that one arrow and repeat several times a day. It will show you real quick if you have what it takes for the quick one shot scenario in the woods.
> Apparently you shoot a lot,maybe even too much. Don't become obsessed with trying to be perfect all the time unless your goals are leaning towards the competitive side. Then all bets are off.


I do the same sort of thing with the first shot. Today, my first shot was in the can...the target is a beer can. I doubt I'll be competing but I like to shoot squirrels.


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## FORESTGUMP (May 14, 2008)

itbeso said:


> I guess it depends on what skill level you want to be on. Forest. I can guarantee you that the gap is my only focus when shooting nonsight and anyone who says that they don't use it anymore doesn't progress their skill level. The more focus on the gap, the better the skill level will become. I honestly believe that the current and past trad shooters have no idea just how accurate they could be with the proper aiming system and the right person to coach them in it. That is just my opinion. Then of course there is the TP thing. Anyone can say they don't have it or have never gotten it, of course those would be the archers who have never excelled in any archery competition. Most archers are honest enough to admit to their frailties, then there are those who don't have any faults, other than not being able to hit the broadside of the proverbial barn. Again, just my opinion



Let's keep in mind that we are not talking apples to apples here. Your kind of gap might be 1/2in to 2in. The kind of gap that most people in these discussions seem to be using could be 1/2ft or 2ft. That is the gap I'm referring to.The one that requires a shooter to guess the distance and a gap that could be,let's say 21inches. Two things that can cause a miss if guessed wrong. BUT,all is not lost because they all seem to eventually progress to ignoring those things. I'm not talking just new shooters,I know that some of the big guns around here have said time and time again that this is what they do. Leads me to believe that a progression takes place in their subconcious that eventually leads to a higher level of shooting. Instinctive,where they ignore the arrow and gap and yardage.


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## FORESTGUMP (May 14, 2008)

MGF said:


> I do the same sort of thing with the first shot. Today, my first shot was in the can...the target is a beer can. I doubt I'll be competing but I like to shoot squirrels.



Good.
You know squirrels have ticks on them. The next time you see one look closely for a tick on his noggin and aim at the tick instead of the squirrel. Notice I said look closely,focus and use him for the target. If you get good at shootin squirrel noggins, then you sure don't have to get the TP over shooting a deer.:wink:


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## steve morley (Dec 24, 2005)

FORESTGUMP said:


> Let's keep in mind that we are not talking apples to apples here. Your kind of gap might be 1/2in to 2in. The kind of gap that most people in these discussions seem to be using could be 1/2ft or 2ft. That is the gap I'm referring to.The one that requires a shooter to guess the distance and a gap that could be,let's say 21inches. Two things that can cause a miss if guessed wrong. BUT,all is not lost because they all seem to eventually progress to ignoring those things. I'm not talking just new shooters,I know that some of the big guns around here have said time and time again that this is what they do. Leads me to believe that a progression takes place in their subconcious that eventually leads to a higher level of shooting. Instinctive,where they ignore the arrow and gap and yardage.


I was one of those guys that had big gaps and tended to shoot more a blend of Instinct/Gap and really only gapped at my longer shots close to my point on distance, I have been experimenting with different anchors and arrow combos to reduce my Field Gaps to a 55y point on (65y before), my 3D setup down to 35y, its still early days in adjusting and building a level of confidence but Im seeing the advantages of tighter gaps, specially on the 3Ds. 

I got some good info from itbeso over last month or so and 2413Gary when I shot with him at NAFAC at the weekend, I was VERY impressed with his Field shooting, Gary and Sandy totally out classed me, when Im on form on a good day Im happy with low to mid 420s, Gary was shooting 440.:thumbs_up


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## BOHO (Aug 7, 2004)

I cant really say how not to get it cause I have had it for years. I got mine by shooting bows to heavy and snap shooting for 16 years. Now I shoot a lot of arrows close to the target and even have to close my eyes on a regular basis. I am starting to come around and by October 2012 I will be 100% over it and will hopefully take my first whitetail with a longbow in many years.


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## Jimmy Blackmon (Sep 9, 2010)

There are two ways to gap: at the arrow and at the target. Both are effective. I see the gap 2" but also know that at 20 yards my point should be 24" below the intended impact point on the target. On a deer at 20 yards my point is at the hock, but I also happen to know the dimensions of the 3D targets and I know the average size of a whitetail here. I have no problem with knowing that my point is there. Also, Forrest, even when you gap the 2" gap (at the target) the tip of the arrow is still down there, 24" below the mark. I use both systems to back each other up and I generally hit where I'm aiming....at least most of the time. System may sound crazy to you but it works. I manage to kill squirrels doing it - lots of them.



FORESTGUMP said:


> Let's keep in mind that we are not talking apples to apples here. Your kind of gap might be 1/2in to 2in. The kind of gap that most people in these discussions seem to be using could be 1/2ft or 2ft. That is the gap I'm referring to.The one that requires a shooter to guess the distance and a gap that could be,let's say 21inches. Two things that can cause a miss if guessed wrong. BUT,all is not lost because they all seem to eventually progress to ignoring those things. I'm not talking just new shooters,I know that some of the big guns around here have said time and time again that this is what they do. Leads me to believe that a progression takes place in their subconcious that eventually leads to a higher level of shooting. Instinctive,where they ignore the arrow and gap and yardage.


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## 2413gary (Apr 10, 2008)

steve morley said:


> I was one of those guys that had big gaps and tended to shoot more a blend of Instinct/Gap and really only gapped at my longer shots close to my point on distance, I have been experimenting with different anchors and arrow combos to reduce my Field Gaps to a 55y point on (65y before), my 3D setup down to 35y, its still early days in adjusting and building a level of confidence but Im seeing the advantages of tighter gaps, specially on the 3Ds.
> 
> I got some good info from itbeso over last month or so and 2413Gary when I shot with him at NAFAC at the weekend, I was VERY impressed with his Field shooting, Gary and Sandy totally out classed me, when Im on form on a good day Im happy with low to mid 420s, Gary was shooting 440.:thumbs_up


Sure glad you didn't talk about my target panic on the animal round. 45 yd point 200 fps is all you need and a bow with two screws in the grip. :zip:


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## steve morley (Dec 24, 2005)

2413gary said:


> Sure glad you didn't talk about my target panic on the animal round. 45 yd point 200 fps is all you need and a bow with two screws in the grip. :zip:


What TP I was too busy dealing with my own demons, if I fixed my bent rest and broken screw on my handle I would have no excuse for you handing my arse on a plate lol


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## Bender (Dec 6, 2006)

itbeso said:


> Anyone can say they don't have it or have never gotten it, of course those would be the archers who have never excelled in any archery competition. Most archers are honest enough to admit to their frailties, then there are those who don't have any faults, other than not being able to hit the broadside of the proverbial barn. Again, just my opinion


Well see, personally I've been shooting for over 10 years now. I myself avoid target panic by placing it in the same category as the Tooth Fairy and the Easter Bunny. Works for me. I guess being a State champion year after year, and taking Redding twice, besting Larry Yien's scores don't count?

I don't normally make it a habit to repeatedly beat everybody over the head with what I have managed to accomplish, but what itbeso had to say did catch my attention.


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## itbeso (Jul 6, 2005)

Bender said:


> Well see, personally I've been shooting for over 10 years now. I myself avoid target panic by placing it in the same category as the Tooth Fairy and the Easter Bunny. Works for me. I guess being a State champion year after year, and taking Redding twice, besting Larry Yien's scores don't count?
> 
> I don't normally make it a habit to repeatedly beat everybody over the head with what I have managed to accomplish, but what itbeso had to say did catch my attention.


Winning championships doesn't mean you don't have target panic. I stopped practicing ( for all intents and purposes ) for ten years after the 1988 Nfaa nationals, but I still competed because that is what I like to do. In late june, 1989 I started to practice for three weeks prior to that years Outdoor nationals. The wednesday before the nationals, I shot a 269 field half bowhunter style- no sights. The following monday, the first day of the nationals, I had target panic so bad I barely broke 500 for the full round. All I could think about that day was That I should be shooting at the 269 pace. The target panic continued all week but I was fortunate to win that National Championship. Target panic is real and anyone who shoots at a high skill level will probably experience it at one time or another. If you aren't shooting at a high skill level and still winning championships, move to a different level of competition, it will make you a better archer.I have had target panic and I'm not afraid to admit it. Just for the record, I did say " those that have excelled in archery competition ". Winning certain championships with mediocre or less scores is not necessarily " excelling ". JMHO


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## BarneySlayer (Feb 28, 2009)

Bebe said:


> View attachment 1543984



Doreen was hot, in an'Instinctive" sense.

Got any other trading cards in your collection?


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## Bender (Dec 6, 2006)

So setting a record is a mediocre score. OK.


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

Doreen Wilber shot 3D?


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

Bender - he was throwing a dig at the IBO - as if the Champions of IBO are mediocre shooters


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## Bender (Dec 6, 2006)

In all honesty I DO recognize that for those who have "it" its quite real. But we also know that its mental in some fashion or another. As I don't have it, I can't speak from experience, but I'm pretty certain that a sure way to get it is by dignifying it with a title, and then once we have a bad day, start freaking out, "Oh no! I have Target Panic!!" At that point you're probably circling the drain. 
I just work on shooting one arrow at a time. (not always successful) and when I pluck or choose the wrong hold, or get the shakes from a long hold because I'm uncertain, or etc etc,I work on learning from it and move on. (again not always successful.)


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## Bender (Dec 6, 2006)

Oh and as for IBO, we should be having an IBO shoot here in CA in April, and rather excited about that. Yes the targets are all very close compared to what I normally shoot. But at the same time IBO has that tiny little 12 spot that we don't use. I imagine its that 12 spot that seperates the men from the boys in an IBO shoot.


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## MGF (Oct 27, 2012)

It seems to me that even champions make shots that aren't perfect otherwise they'd be shooting perfect scores. Are they shooting perfect scores? You don't have to call it target panic when you miss but something causes it. 

Yesterday, I shot in the morning and it went pretty well. Later in the day, my son came over to shoot and I always shoot too much when we shoot together. Between mental and physical fatigue, I got sloppy after a while. 

I slowed down and had to work real hard to get my concentration back in line. I did it but it wasn't easy. Is that anything like what you'd call target panic (at least the mental fatigue and loss of concentration). It felt like it.


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

Fatigue, sloppy form and bad aiming are NOT the same thing as TP.

Ray :shade:


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## Matt_Potter (Apr 13, 2010)

sharpbroadhead said:


> Bender - he was throwing a dig at the IBO - as if the Champions of IBO are mediocre shooters


Where in that thread could you possible gotten a dig at the IBO??


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## Bebe (Mar 18, 2006)

BarneySlayer said:


> Doreen was hot, in an'Instinctive" sense.
> 
> Got any other trading cards in your collection?


I don't have any other archery trading cards. Doreen's card is ultra cool as she was a remarkable lady and archer. I was mistaken in my tongue and cheek reference to Doreen's archery career she DID NOT shoot 3-D shoots to my knowledge. I was thinking of Ann Weber Hoyt!


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## FORESTGUMP (May 14, 2008)

Jimmy Blackmon said:


> There are two ways to gap: at the arrow and at the target. Both are effective. I see the gap 2" but also know that at 20 yards my point should be 24" below the intended impact point on the target. On a deer at 20 yards my point is at the hock, but I also happen to know the dimensions of the 3D targets and I know the average size of a whitetail here. I have no problem with knowing that my point is there. Also, Forrest, even when you gap the 2" gap (at the target) the tip of the arrow is still down there, 24" below the mark. I use both systems to back each other up and I generally hit where I'm aiming....at least most of the time. System may sound crazy to you but it works. I manage to kill squirrels doing it - lots of them.



And to a man who can hit a squirrel by aiming 24 inches below the limb he's sitting on, or possibly 21 inches or even maybe 18 inches, depending on the distance I submit this.:icon_salut: He's a baaad man.


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

Matt Potter from this statement by Ibetso:

"Winning certain championships with mediocre or less scores is not necessarily excelling" 

and this:

"If you aren't shooting at a high skill level and still winning championships, move to a different level of competition"

These statements and several other statements by him in the past, make it quite clear what he was saying.


His whole pust was absurd - in other words - if you have never had Target Panic you are not shooting to your full potential - even if you are a champion archer - it absurd. Sort of like the guys who imply that any instinctive shooter who shoots well - is not "truly instinctive". It does not take a rocket scientist to see the absurdity of such claims.


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## FORESTGUMP (May 14, 2008)

Bender said:


> In all honesty I DO recognize that for those who have "it" its quite real. But we also know that its mental in some fashion or another. As I don't have it, I can't speak from experience, but I'm pretty certain that a sure way to get it is by dignifying it with a title, and then once we have a bad day, start freaking out, "Oh no! I have Target Panic!!" At that point you're probably circling the drain.
> I just work on shooting one arrow at a time. (not always successful) and when I pluck or choose the wrong hold, or get the shakes from a long hold because I'm uncertain, or etc etc,I work on learning from it and move on. (again not always successful.)




I can't believe that I'm gonna do this,but I agree with Bender. :wink: Some things are just mind over matter. I think the need to give everything in life a title and possibly use it for anything that goes wrong in our shooting might be part of the problem.


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## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

sharpbroadhead said:


> Matt Potter from this statement by Ibetso:
> 
> "Winning certain championships with mediocre or less scores is not necessarily excelling"
> 
> ...





FORESTGUMP said:


> I can't believe that I'm gonna do this,but I agree with Bender. :wink: Some things are just mind over matter. I think the need to give everything in life a title and possibly use it for anything that goes wrong in our shooting might be part of the problem.


Which verifies to me with absolute certainty that...neither one of you have ever had it.


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## Jimmy Blackmon (Sep 9, 2010)

Just for you Forrest


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

You bet - I have never had target panic and am confident I never will


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## FORESTGUMP (May 14, 2008)

JINKSTER said:


> Which verifies to me with absolute certainty that...neither one of you have ever had it.



And you are 100% right. I probably should not even comment on the issue and only do so because I sincerely believe it comes from a lack of acceptance that it's not possible to be perfect all the time. Therefore if we make a mistake or just have a bad day,no need to get overly involved. Just accept and move on. But,obviously some peoples personalities don't allow for that. When it comes down to a total loss of control and inability to function at any level as some have described,then I do believe there could be more at play than meets the eye. 
In other words,I think there is a diffence in a serious pursuit of perfection on a rational level and allowing ones shortcomings to take control over their mind in such a drastic way as to not be able to pull a string to a point (anchor)and hold it till they decide to turn it loose. That seems a bit scary.


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## itbeso (Jul 6, 2005)

sharpbroadhead said:


> Bender - he was throwing a dig at the IBO - as if the Champions of IBO are mediocre shooters


Ken, I won't even dignify that statement with a rebuttal. I feel sorry for your neuroses.


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## FORESTGUMP (May 14, 2008)

Jimmy Blackmon said:


> Just for you Forrest



Good shooting,though I don't like shooting squrrels with target points.
I would not go so far as to say that you were not aiming at some point on the tree trunk two feet below the squirrel,but I believe you are one of the guys who has said that you might set the gap and then focus on looking at the target from there on. Did you release the arrow while looking at a spot on the tree two feet below the squirrel or were you looking at the squirrel when you released the arrow? I would find it very hard to shoot something while looking somewhere else. That would be a real trick shot for me.


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## Jimmy Blackmon (Sep 9, 2010)

I do set the gap and then focus on the spot but sometimes I use "pick a point," which is to focus on that spot vs. the target. For example when I shoot 3D and get an alligator or turkey at say 28 yards. I know that my arrow point must be X inches below the 11 ring. I glass the target to see the 11-ring and then I know that the base of the turkey is about 16" below the 11. If my gap is 20 inches I will estimate 4 more inches and pick a leaf or something and aim right at that spot then let the arrow fall into the turkey. I find that easier on small targets. There are several guys that shoot field this way in the TRAD and Bowhunter class. It's very effective, but you have to avoid "peeking" which is common when you are not looking at the X.

Ben can probably name several that shoot this way. I'm pretty sure Mark Applegate uses pick a point on field.


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## itbeso (Jul 6, 2005)

Bender said:


> Oh and as for IBO, we should be having an IBO shoot here in CA in April, and rather excited about that. Yes the targets are all very close compared to what I normally shoot. But at the same time IBO has that tiny little 12 spot that we don't use. I imagine its that 12 spot that seperates the men from the boys in an IBO shoot.


Paul. the IBO uses the center ring within the 10 ring as an eleven. I , personally, don't think that it will be much of a deciding factor in our style of shooting as most of us won't be hitting it with much frequency. I'll take all tens.:teeth:


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## itbeso (Jul 6, 2005)

Jimmy Blackmon said:


> I do set the gap and then focus on the spot but sometimes I use "pick a point," which is to focus on that spot vs. the target. For example when I shoot 3D and get an alligator or turkey at say 28 yards. I know that my arrow point must be X inches below the 11 ring. I glass the target to see the 11-ring and then I know that the base of the turkey is about 16" below the 11. If my gap is 20 inches I will estimate 4 more inches and pick a leaf or something and aim right at that spot then let the arrow fall into the turkey. I find that easier on small targets. There are several guys that shoot field this way in the TRAD and Bowhunter class. It's very effective, but you have to avoid "peeking" which is common when you are not looking at the X.
> 
> Ben can probably name several that shoot this way. I'm pretty sure Mark Applegate uses pick a point on field.


Jimmy, I have always called them " cheatin pick-a-pointers ", tongue in cheek of course. My favorite query of them has always been " how do you hunt when there is snow covering the ground "? All in fun, there are some who are very accurate with that type of aiming system. It takes a lot of work and discipline to master it. Jim Brown was the best I have ever personally seen at that style of aiming.


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## itbeso (Jul 6, 2005)

BLACK WOLF said:


> Fatigue, sloppy form and bad aiming are NOT the same thing as TP.
> 
> Ray :shade:


Amen, and I speak from experience of being guilty of all of the above at one time or another.:embara:


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## Matt_Potter (Apr 13, 2010)

itbeso said:


> Paul. the IBO uses the center ring within the 10 ring as an eleven. I , personally, don't think that it will be much of a deciding factor in our style of shooting as most of us won't be hitting it with much frequency. I'll take all tens.:teeth:


You had better be getting a fair number of them old man - LOL it is going to be a FUN shoot.

Matt


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## Matt_Potter (Apr 13, 2010)

sharpbroadhead said:


> Matt Potter from this statement by Ibetso:
> 
> "Winning certain championships with mediocre or less scores is not necessarily excelling"
> 
> ...


His post was shall we say less than delicate but, at no point did he bust on the IBO - I happen to know he has shot a bunch of IBO just not in the trad classes up until now.

Matt


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## FORESTGUMP (May 14, 2008)

Jimmy Blackmon said:


> I do set the gap and then focus on the spot but sometimes I use "pick a point," which is to focus on that spot vs. the target. For example when I shoot 3D and get an alligator or turkey at say 28 yards. I know that my arrow point must be X inches below the 11 ring. I glass the target to see the 11-ring and then I know that the base of the turkey is about 16" below the 11. If my gap is 20 inches I will estimate 4 more inches and pick a leaf or something and aim right at that spot then let the arrow fall into the turkey. I find that easier on small targets. There are several guys that shoot field this way in the TRAD and Bowhunter class. It's very effective, but you have to avoid "peeking" which is common when you are not looking at the X.
> 
> Ben can probably name several that shoot this way. I'm pretty sure Mark Applegate uses pick a point on field.



Obviously,different methods for different situations. If I were shooting at a spot on a wall for points then I too would attempt to find a place at some point below the target to aim the arrow point that would produce a consistent result. Maybe the same for foam deer or such but not for real ones. I must be looking at the vitals area instead of his foot. I'm just like that.
But, in this case the question was specifically about the squirrels. Did you or did you not look at the squirrel when you released the arrow? Because if you were looking at something else and consistently hitting the squirrels,then I am very impressed. Otherwise,maybe not so much. I can do dat too.


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## vabowdog (Dec 13, 2007)

I guess I'm one of the luckier guys that have a really high anchor....my gap up close is no more than 5" at like 14 yards and all the way out to 33 I'm holding on top of the deers back or I stack the shaft which is normally at the top of it's back...

Yes I've suffered from target panic in my archery career...mainly I believe from too high of poundage...the first year I shot indoors I was shooting [email protected] and pulling at least to 29...great way to create a whole passell of bad habits.


Dewayne


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## itbeso (Jul 6, 2005)

Matt_Potter said:


> His post was shall we say less than delicate but, at no point did he bust on the IBO - I happen to know he has shot a bunch of IBO just not in the trad classes up until now.
> 
> Matt


Matt, for the most part I try to be courteous to everyone, however, there are times and people who try to sneak snide or condescending remarks into the conversation. In my opinion, those times call for blunt words. Just for the record, I don't have a thing against Instinctive shooters, I don't have a thing against archers who don't shoot well enough to win championships, I don't have a thing against 3-d shooters, and i certainly don't have anything against ugly, otherwise you and I wouldn't be friends.:teeth:Sorry, I couldn't resist that last one. What I do have a problem with is people in any of the categories listed who feel it is okay to put down those archers who choose to try to be the best target archer or bowhunter they can be. Why do people feel that need to put down other people and their goals? Does it make a person feel better about themselves to say " well, I just shoot for fun". I shoot because I love this sport and because it is fun, but there is no more fun than winning a coke off a friend or winning a world championship or harvesting a nice deer. Live and let live. Sorry for the indelicacy.


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## MGF (Oct 27, 2012)

itbeso said:


> Does it make a person feel better about themselves to say " well, I just shoot for fun".


I think it does. We live in a time when everybody is supposed to get a trophy just for showing up...so we don't hurt anybody's "feelings".

I shoot to hit the target, whatever it is.


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## Matt_Potter (Apr 13, 2010)

IT - in many ways the world would be a better place if we all said exactly what we thought - as far as ugly goes I fooled my wife and that is all that matters.

Matt


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

MGF said:


> I think it does. We live in a time when everybody is supposed to get a trophy just for showing up...so we don't hurt anybody's "feelings".
> 
> I shoot to hit the target, whatever it is.


:thumbs_up

And I personally do NOT think ANY less of an archer who just wants to have fun when compared to my competitive nature. I just except the fact are goals, personality and/or abilities may be different.

Ray :shade:

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2


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## itbeso (Jul 6, 2005)

BLACK WOLF said:


> :thumbs_up
> 
> And I personally do NOT think ANY less of an archer who just wants to have fun when compared to my competitive nature. I just except the fact are goals, personality and/or abilities may be different.
> 
> ...


And I hope I never come across as believing anything other than what you just said.:thumbs_up


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## itbeso (Jul 6, 2005)

Matt_Potter said:


> IT - in many ways the world would be a better place if we all said exactly what we thought - as far as ugly goes I fooled my wife and that is all that matters.
> 
> Matt


How did her visit to the optometrist go?:teeth:


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## Sanford (Jan 26, 2009)

I didn't see any bluntness or hidden snide in itbeso's previous comments. If you want to continuously judge others by and try to place yourself in the company of champion archers, be prepared to be judged by the same measure - the top of the heap is truthfully a whole lot smaller than what some portray. If you don't measure others or others words by their accomplishments in archery tournaments, you probably are a legit champion archer already or a novice or a shooter just for fun. Itbeso's target of comment is too small a population of folks to really take offense for, and feigned offense is an attention issue that has nothing to do with what others think of you.


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

If you want to avoid Target Panic ask yourself:

Who's advice and opinions should I give the most consideration too?

Should it be someone who has had it several times and believes that everyone who is a competitive archer will get it and if they haven't - even if they are Champion archers - are just not living up to their full potential? 

or...

Should you give more consideration to the advice of archers who have never had Target Panic and are also top level competitive archers and bowhunters and do not hold the opinion that everyone will get Target Panic and that if someone does not get it they are not living up to their potential?


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## MGF (Oct 27, 2012)

BLACK WOLF said:


> :thumbs_up
> 
> And I personally do NOT think ANY less of an archer who just wants to have fun when compared to my competitive nature. I just except the fact are goals, personality and/or abilities may be different.
> 
> ...


To each their own. I often hear the words "Do or do not do" in my head. It doesn't matter what I think of somebody else.


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## grantmac (May 31, 2007)

You know Forrest you call an aweful lot of very talented archers out and yet I don't believe we've seen a video or picture of you shooting, or of something you've shot, or a result of any shoot you've attended. So how is it you are able to comment on the mental side of high-level competitive archery?


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## itbeso (Jul 6, 2005)

sharpbroadhead said:


> If you want to avoid Target Panic ask yourself:
> 
> Who's advice and opinions should I give the most consideration too?
> 
> ...


Ken, target panic does not necessarily manifest itself in every arrow shot in a tournament. It usually will be the ones that count the most though. It may not show up until you need to shoot a ten on your last arrow at Vegas or the Trad worlds. Then, there are those who go to an Indoor nationals and shoot 10-15 points lower than at home. Nerves or target panic? I don't have all the answers but I have had to fight through both before and they are all part of this archery game. I'm trying to show others that it exists and that it can effect top level shooters as well as plinkers and It can be dealt with. I'm secure enough in my manhood to admit to human frailties, in fact, overcoming some of those maladies can be as satisfying as winning a championship. My opinion only.


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## MGF (Oct 27, 2012)

sharpbroadhead said:


> If you want to avoid Target Panic ask yourself:
> 
> Who's advice and opinions should I give the most consideration too?
> 
> ...


In my limited experience, I'm not sure you can get the answer from somebody else. You can learn form and technique from somebody else but when you refuse to succeed anyway, you have to find your own answer.


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

MGF said:


> To each their own. I often hear the words "Do or do not do" in my head. It doesn't matter what I think of somebody else.


:thumbs_up

It really shouldn't matter what anyone 'thinks' of someone else.

In many cases a person is just reflecting themselves upon that person when they're passing judgement.

There's ONLY one person that can judge me and have His judgement really matter to me.

Ray :shade:


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## MGF (Oct 27, 2012)

itbeso said:


> Ken, target panic does not necessarily manifest itself in every arrow shot in a tournament. It usually will be the ones that count the most though. It may not show up until you need to shoot a ten on your last arrow at Vegas or the Trad worlds. Then, there are those who go to an Indoor nationals and shoot 10-15 points lower than at home. Nerves or target panic? I don't have all the answers but I have had to fight through both before and they are all part of this archery game. I'm trying to show others that it exists and that it can effect top level shooters as well as plinkers and It can be dealt with. I'm secure enough in my manhood to admit to human frailties, in fact, overcoming some of those maladies can be as satisfying as winning a championship. My opinion only.


It's part of every game. I don't care if it's archery, golf, billiards or how you perform under pressure at work. It's all the same stuff. You need to know how and you need to do it without choking so much that it effects the outcome.


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

itbeso said:


> I'm trying to show others that *it exists *and that it can effect top level shooters as well as plinkers and It can be dealt with.


LOL...no disrespect meant...but I'm seeing some irony in these words...in regards to the shoes being switched.

It's like some of the guys who don't believe Instinctive Aiming exists as a specific and different way to aim a barebow are trying to show how TP exists to those Instinctive shooters who may not believe TP exists :wink:

Ray :shade:


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## Matt_Potter (Apr 13, 2010)

itbeso said:


> Ken, target panic does not necessarily manifest itself in every arrow shot in a tournament. It usually will be the ones that count the most though. It may not show up until you need to shoot a ten on your last arrow at Vegas or the Trad worlds. Then, there are those who go to an Indoor nationals and shoot 10-15 points lower than at home. Nerves or target panic? I don't have all the answers but I have had to fight through both before and they are all part of this archery game. I'm trying to show others that it exists and that it can effect top level shooters as well as plinkers and It can be dealt with. I'm secure enough in my manhood to admit to human frailties, in fact, overcoming some of those maladies can be as satisfying as winning a championship. My opinion only.


Or sometimes it is just every third arrow - Don't know who might have that problem


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## 2413gary (Apr 10, 2008)

I know that as a shooter who has target panic I am going to listen to teachers that have had TP and cured it before I take advise from someone who never has had it or can't understand where it comes from. If I wanted to learn to drive a truck I wouldn't ask a Donut maker how. True target panic is not just nerves. It comes from a breakdown in the shot process and then we practice that breakdown unitl it becomes a bad habit.(of which I am an expert) then you just dont break the habit by saying I'm not going to have it any more. You must relearn the complete shot correctly as a good habit. Until you make the choice to do this you will have Traget Panic. 
Gary


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## MGF (Oct 27, 2012)

Matt_Potter said:


> Or sometimes it is just every third arrow - Don't know who might have that problem


I've had that problem! The first one could be an accident. The second one means that you should know what you doing the the third one really should be as good. Of course, it isn't and it means you're junk.

Everything is a head game.


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## MGF (Oct 27, 2012)

2413gary said:


> I know that as a shooter who has target panic I am going to listen to teachers that have had TP and cured it before I take advise from someone who never has had it or can't understand where it comes from. If I wanted to learn to drive a truck I wouldn't ask a Donut maker how. True target panic is not just nerves. It comes from a breakdown in the shot process and then we practice that breakdown unitl it becomes a bad habit.(of which I am an expert) then you just dont break the habit by saying I'm not going to have it any more. You must relearn the complete shot correctly as a good habit. Until you make the choice to do this you will have Traget Panic.
> Gary


I think the problem is that there's more to the shot process than we can really track. I don't think you can reduce a successful shot down to a simple set of mechanical steps. I've tried that and as soon as I think I have it figured out, the whole thing goes to hell. I really think it's as much a "feel" thing as anything else. You can't just memorize the mechanical steps and repeat them. You have to memorize the attitude, feeling or whatever you want to call it.

I think it's because our minds and bodies are so complex. It's hard or impossible to understand everything that's going on and to repeat it by way of a purely mechanical process.

Try this. you can walk, right? Think about what it would take to program a machine to walk....you know...down that creek bed that you hunt...every muscle, tendon and nuance of balance.



I don't believe it's as simple as a "shot process".


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## Sanford (Jan 26, 2009)

MFG, the mechanical steps is practice. Practice till they become natural enough to use for use. When they break down, as they will, you then know what to practice and what will fix the problem. The problem with the "feel" approach, which is basically what the steps are when in use for use, is that without having a practiced step sequence, you don't know what all created that "feel" when you don't feel it at the moment. All you can do is keep trying to recreate it till you feel it again.

IOW, the steps are not created to create confusion, they are like the alphabet used in a word - you only need to recall on them all and in sequence when you forget how to spell the word. Then, you're good to go till you get tripped up again. Good practice of the steps means you're less likely to get confused in the future.


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## 2413gary (Apr 10, 2008)

the mechanical process helps keep the mind busy while the shot is going off. the second the mind takes a break during the process your done. So we keep are little minds in the playpen while the serious stuff just happends. and the process does this. 
Gary


MGF said:


> I think the problem is that there's more to the shot process than we can really track. I don't think you can reduce a successful shot down to a simple set of mechanical steps. I've tried that and as soon as I think I have it figured out, the whole thing goes to hell. I really think it's as much a "feel" thing as anything else. You can't just memorize the mechanical steps and repeat them. You have to memorize the attitude, feeling or whatever you want to call it.
> 
> I think it's because our minds and bodies are so complex. It's hard or impossible to understand everything that's going on and to repeat it by way of a purely mechanical process.
> 
> ...


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## MGF (Oct 27, 2012)

Sanford said:


> MFG, the mechanical steps is practice. Practice till they become natural enough to use for use. When they break down, as they will, you then know what to practice and what will fix the problem. The problem with the "feel" approach, which is basically what the steps are when in use for use, is that without having a practiced step sequence, you don't know what all created that "feel" when you don't feel it at the moment. All you can do is keep trying to recreate it till you feel it again.
> 
> IOW, the steps are not created to create confusion, they are like the alphabet used in a word - you only need to recall on them all and in sequence when you forget how to spell the word. Then, you're good to go till you get tripped up again. Good practice of the steps means you're less likely to get confused in the future.


I understand. I'm just not sure that any of us can adequately describe all the steps.


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## 2413gary (Apr 10, 2008)

My wife can she just won't tell me


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

IMO...if something becomes a habit yet it no longer has the anxiety associated with it...it is just a habit...even though it's roots may have started with a TP issue.

Ray :shade:


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## itbeso (Jul 6, 2005)

BLACK WOLF said:


> LOL...no disrespect meant...but I'm seeing some irony in these words...in regards to the shoes being switched.
> 
> It's like some of the guys who don't believe Instinctive Aiming exists as a specific and different way to aim a barebow are trying to show how TP exists to those Instinctive shooters who may not believe TP exists :wink:
> 
> Ray :shade:


I fail to see any irony Ray as I have addressed and acknowledged instinctive as a way of nonsight shooting. I challenge anyone who shoots without a clicker to come to Vegas and shoot better than they do at home. Ken, are you listening?


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## Sanford (Jan 26, 2009)

MGF said:


> I understand. I'm just not sure that any of us can adequately describe all the steps.


Coaching basic steps in archery is not really that varied in technique (Trad excluded ) at the basic level. Most all books and methods lead to the same path. Much of the steps are just pure mechanics at play. The problem is, much of what gets discussed and harped on around the forum, here at least, involve aiming - as if the shot centered around that. Taking from about any steps program, it's the least step - the most insignificant.


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## MGF (Oct 27, 2012)

2413gary said:


> the mechanical process helps keep the mind busy while the shot is going off. the second the mind takes a break during the process your done. So we keep are little minds in the playpen while the serious stuff just happends. and the process does this.
> Gary


A couple of weeks ago, I would have agreed with you. Now I think there's more to it. The difference between the best and the rest is more than just being able to follow instructions. It's the "serious stuff" that's important and we need to pull it out of our hat if we want to hit the target reliably. 

I know all about the "process/sequence". Tell me how to reproduce the "serious stuff" on demand.


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## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

Folks..just in case anybody is curious?...looking back with hindsight..here's how i recall my TP came on about 20+ years ago..

Looking back i believe the first sign/symptom was..

*"Flinching":* and it only happened every now and then "at first"..i wrote it off as "just nerves" becasue also at first?...it only happened on the more critical shots...30yd turkeys..50yd small deer..mid 40's hogs..thread the needle shots..that sorta thing...but i didn't recognize it at that point for what it was...which made it easy for me to write it off as "just nerves"..and then?..when shots like that presented themself?...that voice inside my head would know what was coming and say.."Okay Bill..just settle down with this one."..and it was that very voice that actually added to the stress..cause now?..on top of everything else?..i hadta figure out..how do i settle down?..and it didn't take away pressure...it added pressure to the shot..as my flinching misses grew in frequency and also began happening at shorter and shorter distances..flinching.

at this point?..i sorta knew something bad was going on..but i wasn't ready to admit or accept that i had this silly rumored disease i heard these other mentally inept folks speak of..cause at that time i thought folks who thought TP even existed were full of it and anyone who could allow themself to subcomb to such malarky had damaged goods for a brain! :laugh:

So?..*i kept flinching my way deeper and deeper into..acute TP*...and at this point?..alls i knew was i hadta do sump'in about my "Flinching Problem"..so?..i started toying around with mechnical releases for the first time..which actually helped for the first month or two..probably because it gave my mind something else "new to concentrate on"..but once the novelty began to wear away?..here it came right back again....and with a vengence...as now the TP wasn't just limited to "Flinching"..it now also included.."Punching the Trigger". 

Ans STILL not wanting to accept or admit that i had this disease that surely was ONLY meant for the weak minded?..(which certainly didn't include me! LOL!)...i started reworking my entire shot sequence drills..and moved into a BT release..the one everybody used to break their jaw with..a "Stansilowski" cam type mech. release...thinking being..if i punch this one?..it's gonna hurt..so?..i'll only do it a few times! LOL!...well...the good news?...i'm definantly not weak minded...the bad news?..i figured out how to punch it without hurting myself! LOL!

Next Move?: I started toying with "Which Way I Wouild Approach The Bull With The Pin"...i always used to "come down on it"...well?..i switched to trying to "come up on it"..then"..."in from the side"..then?..both sides...then?.."never hte same way twice"...and then?..

*That's when my bowarm started freezing up*...and got so bad that often times the arrow just launched as soon as my pin tasted paper no matter what angle i was headed to the bull from..and then it happened...the day i knew under no uncertain terms that i did in fact have..extremely severe and acute TP..as at a major 3D shoot i launched an arrow that cleared the back of a 37yd elk by a good foot or so..and at this point?...whenever i did get to full draw?..my body would start shaking so badly i looked like a chuwhawha crapping a pinecone...and all that happened in about a 6 month span after a good 5 year run of bringing home trophys from just about every shoot i attended.

why did i type all that?..cause..i'm reading a lot of folks guessing at this..mentioning "occassional misses"..every 3rd arrow..yada, yada, yada..trust me here..if you get it?..you won't hafta guess at it...or question a particularly bad shot or 3..cause after reading this?..unlike me?..

you'll know...and in short order. L8R, Bill. :cool2:


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## Sanford (Jan 26, 2009)

itbeso said:


> I challenge anyone who shoots without a clicker to come to Vegas and shoot better than they do at home.


With a clicker, shooting a practice score at Vegas is an accomplishment.


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## MGF (Oct 27, 2012)

Sanford said:


> Coaching basic steps in archery is not really that varied in technique (Trad excluded ) at the basic level. Most all books and methods lead to the same path. Much of the steps are just pure mechanics at play. The problem is, much of what gets discussed and harped on around the forum, here at least, involve aiming - as if the shot centered around that. Taking from about any steps program, it's the least step - the most insignificant.


A while ago, I would have agreed with you too but if the aim isn't right, you aren't going to hit the target no matter what you do. the mechanics, aim, timing and so on all need to be on the money or you miss.


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## Sanford (Jan 26, 2009)

MGF said:


> Tell me how to reproduce the "serious stuff" on demand.


If you can set up and release that shot the same every time, your arrow will go the same every time. That's as serious as you can get unless you are vision challenged. The aim is not an issue. It's made too much an issue, but ain't nothing more than aligning one thing up with another in whatever configuration your sighting method calls for. 95% of all your variance will be form related, i.e., not reproducing the set up and release the same. I always tell folks that the aim is with the nock - the nock tells the arrow which way it's going regardless of where you have sighted for.


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

itbeso said:


> I fail to see any irony Ray as I have addressed and acknowledged instinctive as a way of nonsight shooting. I challenge anyone who shoots without a clicker to come to Vegas and shoot better than they do at home. Ken, are you listening?


I'm sorry...I didn't recall you acknowledging that Instinctive Aiming actually exists as a unique way of aiming a Barebow that is NOT Gap Aiming. I apologize if I missed it previously.

Ray :shade:


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## itbeso (Jul 6, 2005)

Sanford said:


> With a clicker, shooting a practice score at Vegas is an accomplishment.


Sanford, I'm sure that statement is true for some,but in reality, the clicker has proven to be one of the most effective TP busters ever and is one of the best training tools for finger shooting. That is why you see every olympian shooting with one. And if you say it is just for a drawcheck, well, you wouldn't say that, would you?:teeth:


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

MGF said:


> if the aim isn't right, you aren't going to hit the target no matter what you do. the mechanics, aim, timing and so on all need to be on the money or you miss.


EXACTLY :thumbs_up at least for the most part :wink:

In some cases a pluck or some unintentional movement of the bow arm can turn a bad aim into a hit.

Ray :shade


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## Sanford (Jan 26, 2009)

itbeso said:


> Sanford, I'm sure that statement is true for some,but in reality, the clicker has proven to be one of the most effective TP busters ever and is one of the best training tools for finger shooting. That is why you see every olympian shooting with one. And if you say it is just for a drawcheck, well, you wouldn't say that, would you?:teeth:


Oh yeah, I fully understand the mental mechanics of the clicker and the release - AND, can fully understand its use in TP cases. I hear the draw check analogy often, but yes, I know way better than that  That's why I said, that with a clicker, shooting practice at a shoot like Vegas is hard enough - much less relying on your own mental controls in the face of such commotion and distraction.


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## itbeso (Jul 6, 2005)

BLACK WOLF said:


> I'm sorry...I didn't recall you acknowledging that Instinctive Aiming actually exists as a unique way of aiming a Barebow. I apologize if I missed it previously.
> 
> Ray :shade:


Ray, not only did I acknowledge it I confessed to shooting that way at short yardages back in the day when I was shooting bowhunter class with a compound. I think Matt Potter would acknowledge me using it on short targets at the USA national fita field trials this year in Washington. I have said before, and will again, it is a viable way of shooting non-sight, I just think there are other, better ways of aiming.:smile:


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

itbeso said:


> Ray, not only did I acknowledge it I confessed to shooting that way at short yardages back in the day when I was shooting bowhunter class with a compound.


Again...I'm sorry. My memory must be failing me because I thought you claimed at some point not long ago that Instinctive Aiming didn't exist.

Ray :shade:


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## Bigjono (Apr 21, 2009)

All i know is that at the Trad Worlds I was on the practice bales shooting 3 inch groups and 10, 20, 30 and 40yds thinking, "at last, that bloody TP has gone". I got to the first target and my bow arm felt like a lead weight again, I couldn't get that sucker up for love nor money and started out with five straight 5's, all directly under the 11 ring, that really tests your love of this stupid sport


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## itbeso (Jul 6, 2005)

BLACK WOLF said:


> Again...I'm sorry. My memory must be failing me because I thought you claimed at some point not long ago that Instinctive Aiming didn't exist.
> 
> Ray :shade:


Probably because I feel that all archery aiming systems are learned, but I know that what we classify as instinctive does, in fact, live within some of us.


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## Matt_Potter (Apr 13, 2010)

itbeso said:


> Ray, not only did I acknowledge it I confessed to shooting that way at short yardages back in the day when I was shooting bowhunter class with a compound. I think Matt Potter would acknowledge me using it on short targets at the USA national fita field trials this year in Washington. I have said before, and will again, it is a viable way of shooting non-sight, I just think there are other, better ways of aiming.:smile:


Ray I have to back the old fart up on this one he was kicking both Alan and my buts (me more than Allen) all over the unmarked course and I asked him how the heck he was shooting the bunnies and he responded instinctive just look at the dot and hit it - got to say I was a little surprised but, he also shot his gap and beat the string-walkers. 

Matt


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## MGF (Oct 27, 2012)

Sanford said:


> If you can set up and release that shot the same every time, your arrow will go the same every time.


Hold on. Doesn't that set-up you summarize so nicely include aiming? What would you expect out of a blind bail group from somebody with great form? How many archers compete with their eyes closed?

I'll say this, if there is aiming error and everything else is right, you'll only miss by the amount of your aiming error. If there is a serious flaw in form, the arrow might go anyplace...and you might not even find it. LOL In that regard, aiming might not be the biggest thing. But, to hit where you want, you have to execute that good release when the arrow is aimed at the target.


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

MGF said:


> Hold on. Doesn't that set-up you summarize so nicely include aiming? What would you expect out of a blind bail group from somebody with great form? How many archers compete with their eyes closed?
> 
> I'll say this, if there is aiming error and everything else is right, you'll only miss by the amount of your aiming error. If there is a serious flaw in form, the arrow might go anyplace...and you might not even find it. LOL In that regard, aiming might not be the biggest thing. But, to hit where you want, you have to execute that good release when the arrow is aimed at the target.


:thumbs_up

When you break all the steps down regarding form and aiming...it is almost 50/50 in what's involved with attaining and maintaining accuracy.

Ray :shade:


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

Matt_Potter said:


> Ray I have to back the old fart up on this one he was kicking both Alan and my buts (me more than Allen) all over the unmarked course and I asked him how the heck he was shooting the bunnies and he responded instinctive just look at the dot and hit it - got to say I was a little surprised but, he also shot his gap and beat the string-walkers.


:thumbs_up

Ray :shade:


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

I shoot consistently the same - in fact - for two years in a row I scored virtually the exact same at the IBO Worlds and I shoot the same on the target range. My score did drop a bit from what I shoot at home on 300 Rounds to what I did at the Indoor Nationals - but that was the first time I had ever shot at a tournament like that and the noise and distractions were more than I have ever encountered - so being unfamiliar with that environment threw me off my game a bit and made it difficult for me to concentrate and feel comfortable - but even at that - by the 2nd day of it i was much closer to shooting my normal scores and was getting used to that environment. 

The first time I went to the IBO Worlds I shoot bad the first day - due to nerves more than anything - first time I ever shot a tournament like that and I was shooting with Rick Welch - the top shooter in the IBO Worlds in the trad division at the time. But by the 2nd day - I shot only 5 points lower than Rick - who went on to win the title.

I think everyone in a new shooting enviroment can get off their game - sometimes in a big way, but how we deal with that is a determining factor of whether or not we turn that into a pattern - I have always reminded myself that win or lose an archery tournament or hit, miss or wound a deer - is not going to change my life in any way that really matters - and I can always get out of such a slump - and I never let it develop into something bigger.


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## Sanford (Jan 26, 2009)

MFG, yes, but as the steps are formally taught, aiming is just another step. Near the end and only about 5% of the process. If you are aiming early, your brain is competing for attention to stuff before the shot is even set up properly to come out properly.


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

Just as how some archers have learned to aim Instinctively...others have taught themselves to execute their form or at least part of it instinctively.

Different strokes for different folks...and it ALL depends upon the individual archer's goals, abilities and personality on the specific archery path they choose to follow.

Ray :shade:


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## FORESTGUMP (May 14, 2008)

grantmac said:


> You know Forrest you call an aweful lot of very talented archers out and yet I don't believe we've seen a video or picture of you shooting, or of something you've shot, or a result of any shoot you've attended. So how is it you are able to comment on the mental side of high-level competitive archery?



DON'T HOLD YOUR BREATH. I don't do videos nor even pictures. Never have,but now I'm older and have no reason to attempt to prove anything to anyone. And,as with anyone else,my words are my opinion. I base things on my own experiences of 61 years doing lots of things in many different ways. That includes shooting things you might have a hard time even imagining.

I wish you would have quoted the post to which you are referring so I would know exactly which expert I 'called out'. Since you did not I can only assume that it was one of my latest posts asking jimmy blackmon about his squirrel shooting. Sorry you didn't understand that it was a question and not a 'call out'. But I do believe most of the people who claim to be using some 'gap' are really shooting instinctive in the end. Setting a gap and then focusing elsewhere just allows the brain time to readjust things as needed. Might even cause TP,because it seems that almost anything can cause it.


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## FORESTGUMP (May 14, 2008)

BLACK WOLF said:


> Just as how some archers have learned to aim Instinctively...others have taught themselves to execute their form or at least part of it instinctively.
> 
> Different strokes for different folks...and it ALL depends upon the individual archer's goals, abilities and personality on the specific archery path they choose to follow.
> 
> Ray :shade:



Whoa,that is soooo hard to understand.:wink: I think I'm too simple minded to be able to complicate it.


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## FORESTGUMP (May 14, 2008)

JINKSTER said:


> Folks..just in case anybody is curious?...looking back with hindsight..here's how i recall my TP came on about 20+ years ago..
> 
> Looking back i believe the first sign/symptom was..
> 
> ...



Mr Jinks, I really hesitated to quote this long post. But it's too damned important to get lost in the shuffle. There are some people who definately need to reread it. You actually know how to describe the problem you had and in great detail. Congratulations on a good memory. However,Sir, it still seems to me that you had become convinced that after years of struggling to reach that level of perfection,if something went wrong it was a major catastrophy in your mind as opposed to a minor detail. It then fed upon its self and grew larger and larger. Now,don't get me wrong, I'm no shrink and have never even had such experience. You did and to you it's very real. I'm glad you were able to clarify this subject for people who might want to know.


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## grantmac (May 31, 2007)

FORESTGUMP said:


> DON'T HOLD YOUR BREATH. I don't do videos nor even pictures. Never have,but now I'm older and have no reason to attempt to prove anything to anyone. And,as with anyone else,my words are my opinion. I base things on my own experiences of 61 years doing lots of things in many different ways. That includes shooting things you might have a hard time even imagining.
> 
> I wish you would have quoted the post to which you are referring so I would know exactly which expert I 'called out'. Since you did not I can only assume that it was one of my latest posts asking jimmy blackmon about his squirrel shooting. Sorry you didn't understand that it was a question and not a 'call out'. But I do believe most of the people who claim to be using some 'gap' are really shooting instinctive in the end. Setting a gap and then focusing elsewhere just allows the brain time to readjust things as needed. Might even cause TP,because it seems that almost anything can cause it.


I was referring to your statements with regards to TP. You clearly have no idea what the mental side of competitive archery involves. You cannot simply think your way out of TP. It is a breakdown of some part of the shot sequence.

I got TP shooting what many on here would call instinctively, long before I became very competitive. It was a direct result of disregarding a proper shot sequence and good form.

As to Jimmy shooting gap, I believe him. I believe he has the mental discipline to place his point where he wants and execute the shot without it wandering. He's using the same mental process that causes so many people to freeze-up on the wrong spot, except he's using it to be in the right one! As for flipping between gapping and pick-a-point, I'd say the best can make either or both systems work really well for them.

Personally I find pick-a-point and stringwalking to be the hardest techniques to execute mentally, but also the most accurate.

-Grant


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

Isn't it funny how all these guys who claim to have had target panic while they were shooting instinctively - always trace it back to a form issue, as grant said: _"It was a direct result of disregarding a proper shot sequence and good form"_ - I seem to remember someone pointing this out several times and that most instinctive shooters that claim to have TP or others claim have TP, really have form issues - not panic issues


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## Sanford (Jan 26, 2009)

BLACK WOLF said:


> Just as how some archers have learned to aim Instinctively...others have taught themselves to execute their form or at least part of it instinctively.
> 
> Different strokes for different folks...and it ALL depends upon the individual archer's goals, abilities and personality on the specific archery path they choose to follow.
> 
> Ray :shade:


Ray, that may be so, but for any sport, take a simple free throw in basketball - there's methods and methodologies that work better than others and which are codified and taught in a fairly universal manner. From there, the talent can work on a good foundation - whatever form that looks to be in the end. It's not to complicate that such is done that way, it's just more better than coaching from "just keep doing that however it works for you till you can do it good"  To rephrase what has been said here before, it's all learned, even our form, there's no instinct involved until it's learned to the point of being a part of you. Shorten someones learning curve and you have coached them pretty well.


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## FORESTGUMP (May 14, 2008)

sharpbroadhead said:


> Isn't it funny how all these guys who claim to have had target panic while they were shooting instinctively - always trace it back to a form issue, as grant said: _"It was a direct result of disregarding a proper shot sequence and good form"_ - I seem to remember someone pointing this out several times and that most instinctive shooters that claim to have TP or others claim have TP, really have form issues - not panic issues



LOL,but ya know he's right. I have no idea about what the mental side of competitive archery involves. I don't do competitive archery, I don't have a shot sequence nor a special form to adhere to. AND, I don't have target panic either. I also think I have made it painfully clear that I'm no expert on the subject. I can imagine it would take a team of archery shooting shrinks to come to a real conclusion on the matter. 
I would also think that one could possibly compare a high stress rifle shooting situation to competitive archery. I don't mean the kind where you are trying to best someone else. I mean the kind that could get ya elimanated wheather you hit or miss the target. That's stress, a real reason to get a case of the nerves and come unglued at a very bad time. But then a person prone to such things wouldn't be there to start with.
Allowing the need to out score the next guy to overwhelm you so bad that you can't even function is something I fail to understand. And I admit it.


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

yep - I agree - guys who go to shoots to win them and are so competitive that all that matters to them is winning are beyond my understanding as well - go to shoots to have fun and do the best I can - I compete against one person and one person only - me!


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

Forest - also - note that TP is talked about quite a bit in the sport of target rifle shooting - "conscious aiming" - but not so much in skeet shooting (subconscious aiming) - if you go to skeet forums - all of their issues are about form and follow through - not TP - I firmly believe that TP is for the most part, but not exclusively an issue of conscious aiming.


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## grantmac (May 31, 2007)

sharpbroadhead said:


> Isn't it funny how all these guys who claim to have had target panic while they were shooting instinctively - always trace it back to a form issue, as grant said: _"It was a direct result of disregarding a proper shot sequence and good form"_ - I seem to remember someone pointing this out several times and that most instinctive shooters that claim to have TP or others claim have TP, really have form issues - not panic issues


It was definitely a TP issue. I was referring to your claim of instinctive archers not getting TP. I corrected the form issue and the TP still stuck with me until I addressed it directly, which is an ongoing battle. Not to the point of having major problems, but needing to concentrate on making strong shots.

-Grant


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## Arcus (Jul 7, 2005)

sharpbroadhead said:


> If you want to avoid Target Panic ask yourself:
> 
> Who's advice and opinions should I give the most consideration too?
> 
> ...


I choose, and have chosen, to listen to those who have had it and explained how they overcame it. I feel that is the reason I was able to overcome it.


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

But this thread is not about overcoming it - it is about not getting it in the first place - how to AVOID target panic - not how to live with it or cure it once you get it


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## Jimmy Blackmon (Sep 9, 2010)

This is most comical. I get almost as much amusement reading this as watching Turtle Man. Nah, Turtle Man is awesome.


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## itbeso (Jul 6, 2005)

FORESTGUMP said:


> LOL,but ya know he's right. I have no idea about what the mental side of competitive archery involves. I don't do competitive archery, I don't have a shot sequence nor a special form to adhere to. AND, I don't have target panic either. I also think I have made it painfully clear that I'm no expert on the subject. I can imagine it would take a team of archery shooting shrinks to come to a real conclusion on the matter.
> I would also think that one could possibly compare a high stress rifle shooting situation to competitive archery. I don't mean the kind where you are trying to best someone else. I mean the kind that could get ya elimanated wheather you hit or miss the target. That's stress, a real reason to get a case of the nerves and come unglued at a very bad time. But then a person prone to such things wouldn't be there to start with.
> Allowing the need to out score the next guy to overwhelm you so bad that you can't even function is something I fail to understand. And I admit it.


Here we go with the sarcastic, self serving comments again. My opinion of what target panic is, is a lack of confidence in your shot, not the need to outscore the next guy. That confidence can be regained by retraining your brain. I can understand certain people not getting or admitting to target panic. When you set your sights so low that 4th place is your penultimate goal or you set an unofficial world record for broken arrows for a summer of missing your stump shots, you probably don't have a shot to have confidence in, but my question is" why do these people feel the need to put others down who strive to better their ability "? Why does someone who claims to not be competing against anyone but himself, continually bring up a fellow competitors name for comparison? Why do some archers say" I just go to tournament to have fun"? I go to tournaments to have fun also, and if you are shooting in my group, you are going to be out of place if you are overly serious. With that said, winning is a lot more fun than losing. I'm serious when I'm shooting my arrows, The rest of the time, I'm having a good time and I think that is true of most of the upper echelon archers in our styles of shooting.


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## vabowdog (Dec 13, 2007)

Jimmy I think even turtle man would have to change this channel.

Dewayne


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

If you want to avoid TP find someone who has been shooting for decades - shoots well both in the field and on the range and then think about why they have not gotten it - and then look at the guys who have gotten it and think about why they got it and what they all have in common - put it all together and you will get an idea of what to do and what not to do - and you will figure out how to avoid TP


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## vabowdog (Dec 13, 2007)

We all go to these shoots to have fun...but first and foremost I go to win....I shot 3 years ago with Ken and he can say he doesn't care if he wins or loses....he must have changed is all I can say....


Dewayne


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## Jimmy Blackmon (Sep 9, 2010)

LOL he drove like 650 miles to beat you by 1 X


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

and what do you base that comment on? That is absurd - I have never gone to a shoot to win and I have always had fun and shot for fun - I go to shoot my best - win or lose - you did not even shoot with me or in my group - so for you to make this comment is absurd - to imply that I am some sort of competition freak that goes to shoots to win because that is what you and some of your pals do is absurd and out of line.

If anyone believes this patently false claim by vabowdog - ask anyone who as ever shot side by side with me in any competition if they feel I am out to win - ask Don Batton, ask Rick Welch, ask Rich Ramming, ask Chris Walker, etc..


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

wow - these guys are amazing - I drove 650 miles to beat a guy I don't even know by 1 point - yep - that is what I did - had nothing to do with enjoying a trip with my brother, with meeting up with by buddy Sean Callanan, Chris Walker and his family and others I have met through the years, nothing to do with enjoying shooting with the best shots in the world in the type of archery I enjoy, etc... - because you two go to win - that means everyone goes to win.

Hmmm - Chris you drove hundreds of miles to go to the IBO - did you go just to win? My brother went and drove hundreds of miles too - he has never scored even close to me in any shoot - so he knew he could not win - yet he still went - but wait - everyone goes to win


I wonder how if all those guys who were not in the top five shooters or so know that Jimmy and Dewayne seem to believe that anyone who travels any distance to go to this shoot must go to win



I am done in this thread - once again dragged to a personal level with false accusations based on nothing other than the fact that they do not agree with my views on archery.


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## Jimmy Blackmon (Sep 9, 2010)

Don Batton is a gapper. He can't be trusted. LOL He's a good man. 

I don't believe you are competitive. If you were you wouldn't have taken it so easy on him. You'd have beaten DeWayne by 20 points. As for me, I flew in an airplane to Cleveland, OH last winter to beat the socks off him, but he had something to say about that. He came running over to ask my score and gloat when he won. But, he's in for a whoppin' this year. I've been working on my gaps and have my target panic under control thanks to these threads.


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

Sanford said:


> Ray, that may be so, but for any sport, take a simple free throw in basketball - there's methods and methodologies that work better than others and which are codified and taught in a fairly universal manner.


EXACTLY...and that's based on a specific goal under specific circumstances.

Believe it or not....the goals and circumstances that an archer may shoot for or in...are NOT exactly the same for EVERY archer.

The archer in the video below is a perfect example of an archer that hasn't followed a FITA manual or what would be considered standard good archery form. Even though his example is an extreme one...it also sheds light on why a bowhunter who chooses to stalk his prey from the ground while choosing to aim Instinctively may also look differently than someone who is considered by some as shooting with good form. There's a reason why there is often conflict and disagreement between target archers and bowhunters regarding form and/or aiming techniques.






I also don't know of any 'good' coach that tells his students to keep on doing something until it works unless they have complete faith in that technique for that archer's specific goals, abilities and personality.

The only coaches I know that will push something even though it may not fit a particular archer's goals, abilities or personality is a VERY biased and blind one, IMO.

A GREAT coach will recognize when something else may work based on a particular archer's goals, abilities and personality instead of forcing just one technique or style.

Ray :shade:


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

Jimmy - I sincerely hope you were just tring to be funny - because - you, as much as anyone I have ever shot side by side with should know that I am not a competition freak - I went to the Indoor Nationals knowing full well I had ZERO chance of winning - I knew going there that my best 300 round scores at home were not good enough to win - but I went anyhow - I did not go there to win - I went there to see what it was all about and to experience shooting under that type of pressure - which I had heard so much about - but certainly not to win - I knew I could not win that shoot before I even made plans to go - and you knew I knew that - yet I still traveled hundreds of miles to attend.

Dewaynes comments were totally uncalled for and meant to imply that I am some sort of competiton freak and not being truthful when I state that I do not go to these shoots to win - don't get me wrong - winning would be great - but that is not the purpose I go - and when I do win a shoot - I consider it a bonus - but not the reason.


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

FORESTGUMP said:


> Whoa,that is soooo hard to understand.:wink: I think I'm too simple minded to be able to complicate it.


Sorry Forrest...I tried to simplify it as best as I could :wink:

Ray :shade:


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

*This thread is a PERFECT example of the different personalities that exist and how it effects and has shapen their archery style and technique.*

Some of you may need to get past yourselves and begin trying to understand that NOT everyone thinks the same, needs to do things the same or has the same issues as you.

Some of you need to try to be more understanding rather than judgemental. I personally would shoot with anyone here...no matter what your style or belief is.

Ray :shade:


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## BarneySlayer (Feb 28, 2009)

I think we have yet another agreement between Jimmy and Sharp. If you shoot to shoot well, as opposed to shooting for score, or placing, you're less prone to have issues with Target Panic, or nerves!

if I only had Photoshop, I could fake the buddyship!


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## BarneySlayer (Feb 28, 2009)

BLACK WOLF said:


> *This thread is a PERFECT example of the different personalities that exist and how it effects and has shapen their archery style and technique.*
> 
> Some of you may need to get past yourselves and begin trying to understand that NOT everyone thinks the same, needs to do things the same or has the same issues as you.
> 
> ...


And THAT is why you just won my first annual ArcheryTalk Citizen of the Day award! Congratulations! Want any FF+ Flemish strings that came out the wrong size as a reward?


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

ok BlackWolf - now go solve the Palestine/Israel issue


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## BarneySlayer (Feb 28, 2009)

sharpbroadhead said:


> ok BlackWolf - now go solve the Palestine/Israel issue


Dude, if he can do that, I will send him a pizza, 3 day, so that it probably won't be moldy when he gets it.


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## FORESTGUMP (May 14, 2008)

BLACK WOLF said:


> Sorry Forrest...I tried to simplify it as best as I could :wink:
> 
> Ray :shade:




Dontcha know,I was agreeing with and complimenting your post?


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## Sanford (Jan 26, 2009)

BarneySlayer said:


> I think we have yet another agreement between Jimmy and Sharp. If you shoot to shoot well, as opposed to shooting for score, or placing, you're less prone to have issues with Target Panic, or nerves!
> 
> if I only had Photoshop, I could fake the buddyship!


Barney, as an aside question, here . How does one know they shot well at a competition that they could not find out at home and alone? If they are looking for how they do under pressure, that puts them back in the competitor loop.


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## BarneySlayer (Feb 28, 2009)

Sanford said:


> Barney, as an aside question, here . How does one know they shot well at a competition that they could not find out at home and alone? If they are looking for how they do under pressure, that puts them back in the competitor loop.


Uh... yes?


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## steve morley (Dec 24, 2005)

sharpbroadhead said:


> Isn't it funny how all these guys who claim to have had target panic while they were shooting instinctively - always trace it back to a form issue, as grant said: _"It was a direct result of disregarding a proper shot sequence and good form"_ - I seem to remember someone pointing this out several times and that most instinctive shooters that claim to have TP or others claim have TP, really have form issues - not panic issues


No form issue with me, I had won Nationals n Longbow div two year previous, if I recall I hadnt lost a tourney in last 18 months even against the Recurves, I think EVERYBDY expected me to win. I had no worries but no real expectations, I was shooting solid and about half way round the course I missed two targets in a row, all of a sudden my confidence just left me, it was like I didnt trust my aim anymore and nothing about my aim felt right, developed a small flinch, I blanked 5 targets that day the Next day I said to myself Ive blown it, not even a chance of a medal so just enjoy the day, I blanked 7 targets that day, 12 targets in two days it was like I had missed a years worth of targets in two days. This TP came from nowhere just a few bad shots under pressure killed my confidence enough to start a chain reaction.

I took a month off shooting and two months non competitive shooting in yard, switched to gap, following year I took 2nd at Nationals and year after I won by a 100 points, I think it took around 12 months to get some level of confience back,even today it feels a bit like a lottery if I shoot first 5 targets good then I normally have a good day, if I dont its normally a hard day holding everything together, I really have to work my sequence through by the numbers, it gives respectable score but never as good scores as when I dont have to think so hard about my shot sequence


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## itbeso (Jul 6, 2005)

BarneySlayer said:


> Uh... yes?


What he said!


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## steve morley (Dec 24, 2005)

Sharp to a point I can agree about form, as form is the key to avoiding the issue in the first place, the Korean coach I worked with told me that aiming, either the wrong time during the shot sequence or using it as a trigger for the release causes a lot of control issues for Archers that can lead to TP.

I went from Instinctive burn a hole in the target to gapping where I didnt start aiming till I had loaded scapula and made the expansion (not reaching aim) my trigger for the release. I suppose you could avoid TP by not burning a hole in the target Instinctively and wait till after you reach anchor but thats not what most Instinctive shots are doing, are they? they start burning that hole to moment they look at the target.


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## grantmac (May 31, 2007)

steve morley said:


> Sharp to a point I can agree about form, as form is the key to avoiding the issue in the first place, the Korean coach I worked with told me that aiming, either the wrong time during the shot sequence or using it as a trigger for the release causes a lot of control issues for Archers that can lead to TP.
> 
> I went from Instinctive burn a hole in the target to gapping where I didnt start aiming till I had loaded scapula and made the expansion (not reaching aim) my trigger for the release. I suppose you could avoid TP by not burning a hole in the target Instinctively and wait till after you reach anchor but thats not what most Instinctive shots are doing, are they? they start burning that hole to moment they look at the target.


That is precisely how I started with TP, just kept burning that hole from before the shot sequence until well after the arrow missed the mark


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

what I do is look at my target - pick a spot that I want to hit and look at it as I draw and then when I hit anchor I pause and then really focus on the spot and remind myself to keep looking at it till the arrow hits the target - and at some point - bam - the release goes off. I don't know if that is the "burn a hole" stuff that some instinctive guys talk about or not - but I do try to focus all of my thoughts on one thing and one thing only - what I want to hit.


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## Bigjono (Apr 21, 2009)

Every shoot I go to I go there to win whether its an hours drive or a 9 hour flight. I certainly don't win them all but I always have fun trying. Why is it that you can't be competitive and still have fun. Most people enjoy shooting with me, it is always a long day of abuse, flatulants and British humour. I always give and expect silence when someone is on the peg but in between its all about the banter.


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

FORESTGUMP said:


> Dontcha know,I was agreeing with and complimenting your post?


Forrest...I never know for sure with you because you're almost always sarcastic :wink: but I was pretty sure you were agreeing. I was just commenting on your first statement.

It's all good.

Ray :shade:


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

Bigjono said:


> Every shoot I go to I go there to win whether its an hours drive or a 9 hour flight. I certainly don't win them all but I always have fun trying. Why is it that you can't be competitive and still have fun. Most people enjoy shooting with me, it is always a long day of abuse, flatulants and British humour. I always give and expect silence when someone is on the peg but in between its all about the banter.


:thumbs_up

Ray :shade:


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

BarneySlayer said:


> Want any FF+ Flemish strings that came out the wrong size as a reward?


Thanks, Barney!

If you have any Border HexVI limbs laying around that are to heavy for ya...I might be interested in those :wink:

Ray :shade:


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

sharpbroadhead said:


> what I do is look at my target - pick a spot that I want to hit and look at it as I draw and then when I hit anchor I pause and then really focus on the spot and remind myself to keep looking at it till the arrow hits the target - and at some point - bam - the release goes off. I do try to focus all of my thoughts on one thing and one thing only - what I want to hit.


That's exactly how I shoot.

Ray :shade:

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

sharpbroadhead said:


> ok BlackWolf - now go solve the Palestine/Israel issue


LOL...why am I NOT surprised by that comment :wink:

The problem can only be solved if everybody actually took those words to heart and changed. What are the chances of that ever happening? If even just one person does...than great. It would be a step on the right direction.

Ray :shade:


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## Sanford (Jan 26, 2009)

BarneySlayer said:


> Uh... yes?


In terms of shooting pressure and TP, if you are shooting just to shoot well, you can easily measure that in your backyard. If you are going to a competition for camaraderie or to meet new folks, you can easily join a local club or range or invite your buddies over for beer and shooting. There's no need to drive 650 miles to where scores and records are kept. Besides, just trying to make sure you don't look bad can be pressure enough as is trying to for a top spot, and first place is not the only prize - placement matters as well - the majority of players there know they won't or might not win. So, basically, if you shoot just to shoot well as anyone would try to do anyway, the very nature of the venue you purposely put yourself in, a competition, is just that, competing for score. The only exception is not shooting for score, but that involves also not turning in a score card.


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## benofthehood (May 18, 2011)

Bigjono said:


> Most people enjoy shooting with me, it is always a long day of abuse, flatulants and British humour. I



sounds like a day afield with me and the lads ... except we are Aussies , so our humour is actually funny ......:wink:


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## BarneySlayer (Feb 28, 2009)

sharpbroadhead said:


> what I do is look at my target - pick a spot that I want to hit and look at it as I draw and then when I hit anchor I pause and then really focus on the spot and remind myself to keep looking at it till the arrow hits the target - and at some point - bam - the release goes off. I don't know if that is the "burn a hole" stuff that some instinctive guys talk about or not - but I do try to focus all of my thoughts on one thing and one thing only - what I want to hit.


Seems to me that you've got a pretty solid shot sequence


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## BarneySlayer (Feb 28, 2009)

BLACK WOLF said:


> Thanks, Barney!
> 
> If you have any Border HexVI limbs laying around that are to heavy for ya...I might be interested in those :wink:
> 
> Ray :shade:


Crap, I don't. If I did, it might be an incentive to simply get stronger


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## BarneySlayer (Feb 28, 2009)

benofthehood said:


> sounds like a day afield with me and the lads ... except we are Aussies , so our humour is actually funny ......:wink:


Farts are always funny! Unless they're wet, in which case they're funny to everybody except one person.


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## Jim Casto Jr (Aug 20, 2002)

"sounds like a day afield with me and the lads ... except we are Aussies , so our humour is actually funny ...."

Ben, did you just take a little swipe at the Brits? :^)


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## Bigjono (Apr 21, 2009)

benofthehood said:


> sounds like a day afield with me and the lads ... except we are Aussies , so our humour is actually funny ......:wink:


Well you are British ex cons so you need a sense of humour cobber


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## benofthehood (May 18, 2011)

Touche Jono !


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## benofthehood (May 18, 2011)

And Jim ... Yep .
Its actually the law here in Oz that we demean Poms at any given chance ... coz sure enough they give it to us ... its how we show each other affection ... well that and the Ashes tour ......


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## Speck1 (Jul 31, 2012)

Sanford said:


> In terms of shooting pressure and TP, if you are shooting just to shoot well, you can easily measure that in your backyard. If you are going to a competition for camaraderie or to meet new folks, you can easily join a local club or range or invite your buddies over for beer and shooting. There's no need to drive 650 miles to where scores and records are kept. Besides, just trying to make sure you don't look bad can be pressure enough as is trying to for a top spot, and first place is not the only prize - placement matters as well - the majority of players there know they won't or might not win. So, basically, if you shoot just to shoot well as anyone would try to do anyway, the very nature of the venue you purposely put yourself in, a competition, is just that, competing for score. The only exception is not shooting for score, but that involves also not turning in a score card.


Great post! Every year I have been to the Trad Worlds, I knew I wasn't going to win but the desire to finish high was very strong. The point is, the last place finisher at a tourney may have experienced more pressure than anyone else. Speck


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

BarneySlayer said:


> Farts are always funny! Unless they're wet, in which case they're funny to everybody except one person.


Ewwwwww....LOL :wink: but than it's like a dirty diaper and the smell doesn't just float away :wink:

Ray :shade:


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## Bigjono (Apr 21, 2009)

benofthehood said:


> And Jim ... Yep .
> Its actually the law here in Oz that we demean Poms at any given chance ... coz sure enough they give it to us ... its how we show each other affection ... well that and the Ashes tour ......


Lol. Still got fond memories of getting drunk at the SCG watching test matches. I got stopped at security when we landed and asked if I had a criminal record, I said I didn't think you still needed one to get in


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## Sanford (Jan 26, 2009)

Speck1 said:


> Great post! Every year I have been to the Trad Worlds, I knew I wasn't going to win but the desire to finish high was very strong. The point is, the last place finisher at a tourney may have experienced more pressure than anyone else. Speck


Speck, to paraphrase from the often recommended book here, the Mental Mechanics of Archery, TP is so rooted as an escalation of anxiety, creating an escalation of failure to perform after first failure is noticed, and NOT so much from just a failure to reach the top or overachieving goals. In that regard, the more shooters, the more the bottom is represented, the more the failure is present. As much as we would like to win, we would all have to admit that having a big failure and winding up near the bottom is more likely to cause us more anxiety than not achieving first place. That's the escalation component that causes panic - at least, according to that theory in that book. Sounds plausible.


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

Sanford said:


> Speck, to paraphrase from the often recommended book here, the Mental Mechanics of Archery, TP is so rooted as an escalation of anxiety, creating an escalation of failure to perform after first failure is noticed, and NOT so much from just a failure to reach the top or overachieving goals. In that regard, the more shooters, the more the bottom is represented, the more the failure is present. As much as we would like to win, we would all have to admit that having a big failure and winding up near the bottom is more likely to cause us more anxiety than not achieving first place.


:thumbs_up

Ray :shade:


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## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

Sanford said:


> Speck, to paraphrase from the often recommended book here, the Mental Mechanics of Archery, TP is so rooted as an escalation of anxiety, creating an escalation of failure to perform after first failure is noticed, and NOT so much from just a failure to reach the top or overachieving goals. In that regard, the more shooters, the more the bottom is represented, the more the failure is present. As much as we would like to win, we would all have to admit that having a big failure and winding up near the bottom is more likely to cause us more anxiety than not achieving first place. That's the escalation component that causes panic - at least, according to that theory in that book. Sounds plausible.





BLACK WOLF said:


> :thumbs_up
> 
> Ray :shade:


Or?..just punish yourself by sentencing yourself to shooting no further than 3yds for weeks on end..then slowly work your way back until you screw up one shot...then punish yourself again by sentencing yourself to another 3 weeks at 3yds..and repeat as necessary until you smash your bow across the nearest tree and take up golf..or?..pozac. :laugh:


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

JINKSTER said:


> Or?..just punish yourself by sentencing yourself to shooting no further than 3yds for weeks on end..then slowly work your way back until you screw up one shot...then punish yourself again by sentencing yourself to another 3 weeks at 3yds..and repeat as necessary until you smash your bow across the nearest tree and take up golf..or?..pozac. :laugh:


You've been a very, very bad boy, Jinks :wink:

Seriously though...if you honestly feel like you're punishing yourself...that training technique may just not fit your personality and you might need to seek out other options.

Ray :shade:


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## itbeso (Jul 6, 2005)

Sanford said:


> Speck, to paraphrase from the often recommended book here, the Mental Mechanics of Archery, TP is so rooted as an escalation of anxiety, creating an escalation of failure to perform after first failure is noticed, and NOT so much from just a failure to reach the top or overachieving goals. In that regard, the more shooters, the more the bottom is represented, the more the failure is present. As much as we would like to win, we would all have to admit that having a big failure and winding up near the bottom is more likely to cause us more anxiety than not achieving first place. That's the escalation component that causes panic - at least, according to that theory in that book. Sounds plausible.


What did he just say?


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## itbeso (Jul 6, 2005)

BLACK WOLF said:


> :thumbs_up
> 
> Ray :shade:


Ray, don't even begin to tell me you understood all that!!!:teeth:


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## itbeso (Jul 6, 2005)

Speck1 said:


> Great post! Every year I have been to the Trad Worlds, I knew I wasn't going to win but the desire to finish high was very strong. The point is, the last place finisher at a tourney may have experienced more pressure than anyone else. Speck


I like your attitude, Speck. Keep trying and you might surprise yourself. Good Luck.


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

itbeso said:


> Ray, don't even begin to tell me you understood all that!!!:teeth:



What...can't a guy have muscles and brains? :wink:

Ray :shade:


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## grantmac (May 31, 2007)

I just spent 2 months shooting no further than 1.5 yds for maybe 30-40 arrows at a time once or twice a week. Big change from this time last year when I was shooting 100-150 arrows a day, 6 days a week indoors.
I'm not a fan of blank-bale except as a way of warming-up, but I didn't have a choice because I was working (Navy) and that was the the distance/time I could get (lucky to get it too).
So I decided that I would use the time to work on strengthening the mental side of my archery.

So to that end I did the exact opposite of blank bailing. I took my limbs and cranked them in all the way and concentrated on holding on a spot. Getting comfortable with the idea that there was a target in front of me that I could release into at any time, but that I wanted to hold my arrow on one spot. Sometimes I'd do that for a 5 count then let down, other times I'd just shoot a natural pace. Sometimes I'd draw on one spot and then transfer to a lower or higher one then hold.

Today was my first chance to shoot since then. I took my limbs back out for my lighter arrows, but honestly I will be shortening them because I was really comfortable with them full in (is WAS a mental thing) for field and 3D anyway. I was happy with my hold and the shots came out strong. Not all perfect results, but the sequence and feel was excellent. No anxiety with holding where I wanted and none of the driveby releases I was getting last year.

So perhaps rewriting the programming is good every once in a while, you just have to make sure you keep the good stuff and let the bad stuff go away.

-Grant


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## Speck1 (Jul 31, 2012)

itbeso said:


> I like your attitude, Speck. Keep trying and you might surprise yourself. Good Luck.


Thankyou, July is very close for people who are looking forward to it. Speck


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## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

BLACK WOLF said:


> You've been a very, very bad boy, Jinks :wink:
> 
> Seriously though...if you honestly feel like you're punishing yourself...that training technique may just not fit your personality and you might need to seek out other options.
> 
> Ray :shade:


yep.


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## Sanford (Jan 26, 2009)

itbeso said:


> What did he just say?


The need to win ain't the pressure. The risk of failure is. There's a difference between failure to succeed and failure. One is just a normal occurrence for even the best and one is considered incompetence.


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## itbeso (Jul 6, 2005)

Sanford said:


> The need to win ain't the pressure. The risk of failure is. There's a difference between failure to succeed and failure. One is just a normal occurrence for even the best and one is considered incompetence.


Yeah, that's it. That's what I thought he said.:teeth:


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## AJ the TP Guru (Jul 29, 2011)

I see this thread is at 10 pages now. Haven't read through all the posts, but gotta assume that no one has found the silver bullet yet, right?


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

I dunno - I have been shooting for over 20 years and never got TP - I think for myself anyhow I have found the Silver bullet. 
Here is why I think I have avoided TP

1. instinctive aiming/subconscious release - the more of the shot that is relegated to the subconscious - the less likely one will develop target panic

2. keeping archery fun

3. practicing pretty much only when it is fun and never forcing myself to shoot when I don't feel like it for whatever reason

4. keeping competition in percpective and competing only against myself and never letting other shooters get into my head - which is pretty wasy to do since I honestly do not care if I win or not.

6. when hunting - NEVER LOOK AT THE ANTLERS for more than a few seconds -


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## steve morley (Dec 24, 2005)

I agree with everything except 1 and 6, and 6 is only because Im not allowed to bowhunt here, Ill have to use 6 analogy when Im meeting women, not to look at their rack for more than a few seconds lol

Number 1 I feel can work both ways depending on the person, some can do everything subconscious and others seem to need more conscious input in key parts of their shot sequence. We have no proof either way that one particular aiming style causes TP. I feel it is never just one thing causing TP but a combination of things we may consider insignificant building up into a sudden and catastrophic loss of confidence.


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## Greysides (Jun 10, 2009)

sharpbroadhead said:


> Here is why I think I have avoided TP
> 
> 1. instinctive aiming/subconscious release - the more of the shot that is relegated to the subconscious - the less likely one will develop target panic


Can't/won't speak for others but from my POV you are very off-base. My problem was premature ejection...............

The Subconscious was the culprit. 

I now have to take conscious control of the timing of the release.

Left to it's own devices the subconscious can start to release sooner and sooner in an effort to get the weight pressure off you.


I think the reason you've not, and probably never will, suffer from TP is down to your mental make-up.


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## MGF (Oct 27, 2012)

AJ the TP Guru said:


> I see this thread is at 10 pages now. Haven't read through all the posts, but gotta assume that no one has found the silver bullet yet, right?


IME there aren't many silver bullets in life...period. Unless you're one of those rare individuals who are just born with the ability to do a thing well, you just have to work hard enough at it to get as good as you want to be. Set-backs, in whatever form, are just par for the course.


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## Sanford (Jan 26, 2009)

Greysides said:


> The Subconscious was the culprit.


The Million Dollar answer! The subconscious is a lazy multi-tasker, that's all, though it does help us get through the day more efficiently. We can learn to use parts of it for our advantage, e.g., proper clicker use, but given its own devices in "full control", we get all its shortcuts.


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

Greysides said:


> *I think the reason you've not, and probably never will, suffer from TP is down to your mental make-up.*


:thumbs_up

Ray :shade:


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

I have several books that discuss TP - some by Olympic Champions and Coaches in archery and shooting sports - and they all say that to avoid target panic the shot must become subconscious - automatic and done with no thought except on the target - but hey - if the guys in the traditional forum of archery talk think the subconscious is the culprit - we all have a right to our opinions.


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

steve morley said:


> Number 1 I feel can work both ways depending on the person, some can do everything subconscious and others seem to need more conscious input in key parts of their shot sequence. We have no proof either way that one particular aiming style causes TP. I feel it is never just one thing causing TP but a combination of things we may consider insignificant building up into a sudden and catastrophic loss of confidence.


:thumbs_up

Ray :shade:


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## Sanford (Jan 26, 2009)

sharpbroadhead said:


> I have several books that discuss TP - some by Olympic Champions and Coaches in archery and shooting sports - and they all say that to avoid target panic the shot must become subconscious - automatic and done with no thought except on the target - but hey - if the guys in the traditional forum of archery talk think the subconscious is the culprit - we all have a right to our opinions.


Big difference between turning over some aspects of the shot to the subconscious, or making some parts more passive, than turning the shot over to the subconscious and the only thought on the target, which is totally contrary to anything taught at that level. Books are only good if you have the training that goes with them to keep it in context.


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

sharpbroadhead said:


> I have several books that discuss TP - some by Olympic Champions and Coaches in archery and shooting sports - and they all say that to avoid target panic the shot must become subconscious -


I know many archers....especially True Instinctive archers, who allow most of the shot execution to be subconscious/unconscious...and they have ended up with TP.

The moment an archer has anxiety, worry or any negative thoughts that distract an archer from executing the shot as they should...that's TP.

An archer who has basically allowed the subconscious/unconscious to execute the shot except for picking the target and deciding when to draw the bow...can STILL have anxiety...especially if the archer lacks confidence.

The keys to curing, controling or avoiding TP is to develop confidence, keep the conscious mind focused in the moment on the archer's shot sequence, relax the mind, think positively, think about one shot at a time, etc. etc.

Ray :shade:


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## steve morley (Dec 24, 2005)

sharpbroadhead said:


> I have several books that discuss TP - some by Olympic Champions and Coaches in archery and shooting sports - and they all say that to avoid target panic the shot must become subconscious - automatic and *done with no thought except on the target* - but hey - if the guys in the traditional forum of archery talk think the subconscious is the culprit - we all have a right to our opinions.


WHO and what books? please give quotes and page numbers.

On the KSL site and what Coach Kim telling us that some conscious input has to be into the sequence, these two guys are regarded as two of the best in the sport, they likey tagged more Olympic golds to their students than an of the others in recent years.

KSL quote

_*"When we concentrate with some intensity, we can only tune into one thought channel at a time. Consequently, if the focus were completely diverted to aiming, the connection with the core back muscles would be lost. Obviously, some aiming will need to take place, but this should be done more sub-consciously than consciously."*_


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## Bebe (Mar 18, 2006)

sharpbroadhead said:


> I have several books that discuss TP - some by Olympic Champions and Coaches in archery and shooting sports - and they all say that to avoid target panic the shot must become subconscious - automatic and done with no thought except on the target - but hey - if the guys in the traditional forum of archery talk think the subconscious is the culprit - we all have a right to our opinions.


Great to see you using references sbh, can you list some of your several books and page numbers I want to read them myself. I've talked to olympic style coaches and archers and most all of them look towards the use of a clicker and a subconscious shot to get through and beyond target panic.


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## Sanford (Jan 26, 2009)

steve morley said:


> WHO and what books? please give quotes and page numbers.
> 
> On the KSL site and what Coach Kim telling us that some conscious input has to be into the sequence, these two guys are regarded as two of the best in the sport, they likey tagged more Olympic golds to their students than an of the others in recent years.


Steve, a lot of conscious thought being put into the shot sequence, with the key in learning to shift the focus along the way. Thought on target, the least, not the most.

Sharp, case in point: "The primary cause of all target panic is improper concentration techniques." Find the book that comes from and you will see why we need to fire you as librarian around here


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## Greysides (Jun 10, 2009)

sharpbroadhead said:


> I have several books that discuss TP - some by Olympic Champions and Coaches in archery and shooting sports - and they all say that to avoid target panic the shot must become subconscious - automatic and done with no thought except on the target - but hey - if the guys in the traditional forum of archery talk think the subconscious is the culprit - we all have a right to our opinions.


I did imply it was a personal thing.... 

They archers you mention are using clickers to know when to release. They can focus on elsewhat until it clicks and be fine. My problem was controlling the release or rather NOT controlling the release.

The clicker is more than a draw length check!!

That obstinacy/determination/single mindedness of yours Ken is a double edged sword. It's the reason you won't suffer TP .......or, opposing arguements............


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## steve morley (Dec 24, 2005)

Sanford said:


> Steve, a lot of conscious thought being put into the shot sequence, with the key in learning to shift the focus along the way.


Trying to make it automatic (low level conscious action) with the shift of focus being a feeling rather than a conscious though process of each step i.e. feel anchor move onto loading/transfering when it feels right set my gap, gap feels right move onto expansion etc etc


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## Sanford (Jan 26, 2009)

steve morley said:


> Trying to make it automatic (low level conscious action) with the shift of focus being a feeling rather than a conscious though process of each step i.e. feel anchor move onto loading/transfering when it feels right set my gap, gap feels right move onto expansion etc etc


Very true!!! For me, I would assign the very conscious thought process for practice and practice and practice of the sequence to make it part of me. Come time to put into action, the only difference between my recalled form and a "completely instinctively" called on form is that mine has a foundation, a method to do it more consistently and efficiently.


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## steve morley (Dec 24, 2005)

Very well put Sanford, that core foundation is what gives us confidence to shoot good scores and keeps TP at bay, Coach Kim said to me having total faith in your sequence and following it correctly is the way to keep TP from ever appearing, he claimed not one of his students has ever developed TP, I believe him because if I had a coach of that caliber watching my every move I doubt I would have ever got TP, its the little things we cannot spot without some external guidence that leads us onto the wrong path, for us amateurs its hard for us to stay on a clear path. Once you stray it is *very* hard to get back on that path.


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## Sanford (Jan 26, 2009)

Steve, not torquing the bow handle is a "step". Whether we shoot sighted or instinctively, we all know that step must be ingrained till we can't do it wrong. Seems odd at times that any other steps, steps that might be of equal or more value, are thought of as unnecessarily overthinking the shot. It's not, it's the same as having one ingrained step, it's just we can manage more than one if we try.


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

The books that come to mind are Understanding Winning Archery and With Winning in Mind - I am at work - so I don't have them in front of me - but maybe I can find some information on the net if I get some time


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## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

sharpbroadhead said:


> I have several books that discuss TP - some by Olympic Champions and Coaches in archery and shooting sports - and they all say that to avoid target panic the shot must become subconscious - automatic and done with no thought except on the target - but hey - if the guys in the traditional forum of archery talk think the subconscious is the culprit - we all have a right to our opinions.





steve morley said:


> *WHO and what books? please give quotes and page numbers.*
> 
> On the KSL site and what Coach Kim telling us that some conscious input has to be into the sequence, these two guys are regarded as two of the best in the sport, they likey tagged more Olympic golds to their students than an of the others in recent years.
> 
> ...


Amen on the "Books" thing...as it's been my experience that what the folks who write them do best is "write"...and not to be confused with the other "right"...and btw...this is an awesome thread...i'm getting much from it...especially Sanford's comment regarding the subconscious being "a lazy multi-tasker"...and Steve's confirmation of that with inferences from the real pro's (who rarely author anything) who suggest that a certain amount of "Conscious Control" must be applied as..this is exactly what i'm coming to find in attempting to remedy my own particular case of TP...and as i'm reading through all this the more these statements and shared knowledge become more and more profound to me as the best way i can describe or make an analogy of my own partcular condition at the moment?..it's occured to me..

My Subconscious: is like a very talented but un-disciplined child..

and it NEEDS a certain amount of..

My Conscious: "The Legal Guardian" (so to speak) To make sure it behaves properly.

But it takes the proper mix of both and?..each has their time and place...

The Conscious Adult: is there to make certain that all aspects of executing proper form are met up until such time that full draw/solid anchor have been established and proper BT is in fact engaged and then it tells..

The Subconscious Talented Kid: Okay son...you're properly seated at the table and grace has been said..you may eat now. :laugh:

HEY!...I Think I got it! :laugh: Through reading here and talking myself through it! 

Here's a pic i didn't bother posting last night...i got pi$$ed off at everything that was up in my head and decided it was time for a complete change of everything in an effort to kinda re-invent myself..and it occured to me...i had dedicated myself to one bow the past month+ while doing the blank-bail thing and then getting anxious and apprhensive about bridging back..so?..i swapped bows and grabbed that Bob Lee of mine...the one i painstakingly re-shaped the grip (ala excel) to properly fit my hand and shoot where i look...it's been hanging untouched for 5-6 weeks now..until last night..and this was LITERALLY my first group at 15yds and things just got disgustingly better from there...and?..seemingly effortless accuracy..better..and waaaay more relaxed than i've ever shot before..










and things just got easier and tighter grouped from there..i'm dying to try 20yds but my bridge-back plan is that after the blank-bail (where i went from 3yds to 5yds during those first 3 weeks..week 4 i went to 8yds..week 5 (last week) i did 10yds..this week?..is 15yds..and?..i think i'm gonna try the bigger target as well..maybe something like a paperplate sized bull. 

L8R, Bill. :cool2:


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## Sanford (Jan 26, 2009)

sharpbroadhead said:


> The books that come to mind are Understanding Winning Archery and With Winning in Mind - I am at work - so I don't have them in front of me - but maybe I can find some information on the net if I get some time


The problem you will run into is that they will say the exact same thing as the other book you mentioned as source info on the subject of target panic. It's rooted in target concentration, hence the name, "Target" Panic. It's manifested by the breakdown of form, mainly in release timing or aim holding, stemming from lack of concentration on all aspects of the shot and too much emphasis at the target or pin - too much concentration on a "spot" at the target or pin on the bow at the expense of control of other aspects of the shot. The subconscious working in overdrive to complete the shot, IOW.


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## steve morley (Dec 24, 2005)

JINKSTER said:


> But it takes the proper mix of both and?..each has their time and place...
> 
> L8R, Bill. :cool2:


Well said Bill

I suspect Sharp is doing pretty much what most of the other good shooters are doing, what we are calling lower consicous awareness he may consider that in his own thought process as totally subconscious, it is just a matter of how we understand and express our thought processes to others

I think we all start off shooting with a very large and complex shot sequence and over a period of time and with more experience we learn to prioritize it down into something manageable, without proper guidence we can get the order and priorities wrong, get it wrong and somewhere down the line you run into problems. A recent example was Logos telling people to focus on the release, nearly every book that has been published advises against this because it can lead to problems, Logos considered this correct because he hand not personally run into any problems.


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

steve morley said:


> Well said Bill
> 
> I suspect Sharp is doing pretty much what most of the other good shooters are doing, what we are calling lower consicous awareness he may consider that in his own thought process as totally subconscious, it is just a matter of how we understand and express our thought processes to others
> 
> I think we all start off shooting with a very large and complex shot sequence and over a period of time and with more experience we learn to prioritize it down into something manageable, without proper guidence we can get the order and priorities wrong, get it wrong and somewhere down the line you run into problems. A recent example was Logos telling people to focus on the release, nearly every book that has been published advises against this because it can lead to problems.


:thumbs_up

Ray :shade:

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

Sanford said:


> It's rooted in target concentration, hence the name, "Target" Panic. It's manifested by the breakdown of form, mainly in release timing or aim holding, stemming from lack of concentration on all aspects of the shot and too much emphasis at the target or pin - too much concentration on a "spot" at the target or pin on the bow at the expense of control of other aspects of the shot. The subconscious working in overdrive to complete the shot, IOW.


:thumbs_up

Ray :shade:

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

LOL - so even if I post the quotes of the experts - the guys on archery talk no more - even guys like Jinx who are admittedly newbies and do not shoot more than 5 yards from the bail for weeks at a time - but they know more about TP than the experts - whatever - you guys believe what you want - if you want to know what the experts think - read the books - I am not going to waste my time looking up the quotes and then typing them for you guys to claim you know more.


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## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

sharpbroadhead said:


> LOL - so even if I post the quotes of the experts - the guys on archery talk no more - even guys like Jinx who are admittedly newbies and do not shoot more than 5 yards from the bail for weeks at a time - but they know more about TP than the experts - whatever - you guys believe what you want - if you want to know what the experts think - read the books - I am not going to waste my time looking up the quotes and then typing them for you guys to claim you know more.


easy there Ken..i'm relatively new to "serious trad" and by no means not new to archery..and many here seem very much aware of that..but please forgive us if some of us value actual first hand experience and real time discussion more than an afternoon at the library..as it's been my experience that many of the more serious pro's tend to coach more than they write..oh there's far more ca$h to be made and in a much more convienient fashion by writing books but..it seems to me that the best ones are almost reluctant to publish anything..knowing that..pending comprehension and interpretation by the reader?..much of what they have to convey may get lost in the translation and worse yet?.."mis-applied".

That said?..i'd really appreciate it if you wouldn't tend to demean and belittle my previous experience with archery as much of the basic principles still apply..wheels or not.

Thanks, Bill. :cool2:


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## BarneySlayer (Feb 28, 2009)

Please Ken, can you type of the whole book so I don't have to buy it 

I'm going to recuse myself from an expert title, but I do have some education in cognitive processes, neurobiology, and 'abnormal' psychology (which covers panic attacks.) I've also had a few panic attacks (which was really interesting because before that it seemed silly that anybody could get such a thing), and have experienced, to a relatively mild degree, what I would consider Target Panic, so i feel at least qualified to state my opinion, just like you, which for the record, I consider genuinely useful.

to me, it seems like there's actually some increased understanding developing here.


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## steve morley (Dec 24, 2005)

Sharp you tried to back up your own opinion with an expert reference without actually giving that reference, it was not unreasonable or 
disrespectful to ask for your source and page numbers.

We are all giving our opinions based on personal experience Im not claiming to know more than the next man, even Jinks gave what I thought a good and valid point, seems we all have something to offer on this thread.

Dont get upset and stop posting, you have added some good info to date


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## itbeso (Jul 6, 2005)

JINKSTER said:


> easy there Ken..i'm relatively new to "serious trad" and by no means not new to archery..and many here seem very much aware of that..but please forgive us if some of us value actual first hand experience and real time discussion more than an afternoon at the library..as it's been my experience that many of the more serious pro's tend to coach more than they write..oh there's far more ca$h to be made and in a much more convienient fashion by writing books but..it seems to me that the best ones are almost reluctant to publish anything..knowing that..pending comprehension and interpretation by the reader?..much of what they have to convey may get lost in the translation and worse yet?.."mis-applied".
> 
> That said?..i'd really appreciate it if you wouldn't tend to demean and belittle my previous experience with archery as much of the basic principles still apply..wheels or not.
> 
> Thanks, Bill. :cool2:


It's really amean thing to demean someone and Idon'tmean that in a less than meaningful way.


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

Steve - here are some quotes - probably wasting my time typing them - but here they are:

Understanding Winning Archery - Al Henderson (world renowned Olympic Archery Coach)

A practical application of the solution for target panic
page 38:

"Now, when I have a student use the ring to conquer target panic, I first ask, "Where do you wnat the shot to go?"
Naturally, everyone wants it to go in the gold.
"Allright<" I say, "now all you think about is where that shot is going to go, I want you, in your mind, to see that shot going in the gold."
"OK, I see it."
"Are you sure?"
"Yes"
"Allright, now don't aim. Aiming doesn't have anything to do with it, just keep seeing the shot go into the gold, and then go ahead and make the shot."

I have raised scores with that technique. I have a student right now iwth a case of "almost" target panic. He didn't have it all the time, but he did have it part of the time. He took the post and dot out and used just the ring. He hasn't had target panic since. Why? Because he's not consciously aiming. His subconscious centers the ring on the gold, and he's not trying to hold anything still. You might say that the ring is helping him surround the gold and bring it to hiim, make it part of him an dthe shot...as opposed to attempting to assault the gold with a little dot that tries to bounce off the gold like that gold spot had a rubber barrier around it."

Lanny Bassham's With Winning in Mind is almost totally dedicated to learning to surrender the shot to the subconscious - having an entire section of the book titled: "Building the Subconscious Circle"

there is sooo much in this book that makes the point I am trying to make I would have to type the whole book - but here is a little taste of what I mean from the final chapter - Cease Fire:

"Ten Principles of Mental Management

1. When the Concious Mind has a positive thought, it cannot, at the same time, be thinking negatively

2. What you picture is crucial.

3. The Subconscious Mind is the source of all mental power.

4. The Subconscious moves you to do whatever the Conscious mind is picturing

5. The Self image and performace are always equal

6 You can replace the self image you have with the self image you want and, therefore, permnantly change performance

7. When the conscious, subconscious, and self-image are balanced and working together, good performance is effortless

8. the more we think about, talk about, or write about something happening, we improve the probability of that thing happening.

9. Self image cannot tell the difference between waht actually happens and what is vividely imagined

10. We value things in direct preportion to the price we pay for them"


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## Arcus (Jul 7, 2005)

Here's some more from the target panic portion of Understanding Winning Archery:

I finally realized that my subconscious self was at war with my conscious self. Since I am supposed to be responsible for what my subconscious self thinks, I needed to exert some control over it. To do that, I had to understand that I had to overcome my subconscious objections (fears) every time I drew an arrow.

I should not be afraid to fail, or to make a mistake while trying, to succeed. That meant everything else that I thought important must be pushed aside – pride, embarrassment, my ego, etc. Nothing must interfere with the control I needed to do what I was afraid to do.

I attended large and small tournaments, and I shot with only one thought in mind: I must win over my subconscious fears by aiming, no matter how sloppy or unorthodox my form looked. In many tournaments, I completely missed the butt more than 20 times out of 90 shots, and that can make a grown man cry.

I took a lot of abuse from friends and from my own pride, but I gloried in the fact that as bad as it looked on the outside, I was on my way to winning on the inside.

I finally re-educated my subconscious self and made it back up to target number one, but only because my values had been sorted out and rearranged. I made it because I was now not afraid to fail. l was not afraid to make a mistake.


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## steve morley (Dec 24, 2005)

Sharp its good stuff and agree but in you earlier post you said the *shot must become subconscious* which to me and maybe others means every aspect of the shot, your latest quotes are talking about the aim being subconscious which I agree with but I dont agree with making the whole shot sequence subconscious which I feel you earlier post suggested.


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

Thanks Arcus...that should make everything clearer. 

We should all read everything and take everything into account to help put the true meaning into perspective rather than picking portions of it. Kind of like just reading a verse from the Bible and taking it out of context when a person should read the book as a whole to help fully understand those few chosen verses.

Ray :shade:


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

LOL - are you implying that I ignored that for a reason - what he is saying there is in a different chapter and I did not feel like typing all of that since he is talking about two different things in these two different and distinct chapters - one is a subconscious fear - the other is allowing the subconscious to regulate the shot.

Obviously the subconscious and the conscious have to be on the same page - these are two different aspects - we were not talking about subconscious fears - we were talking about the subconscious controlling the shot - two different things


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## Jimmy Blackmon (Sep 9, 2010)

Anyone ever heard of Procrustes? What about a Procrustian solution?

Sometimes we don't even have to consciously come up with a Procrustian solution. Sometimes our biases are so strong that we commit our problem solving to the subconscious and that defaults to a Procrustian solution.


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

oh man, Jimmy are you trying to put that square peg in the round hole again - push hard enough and it will work - we will all be gap shooter - not - I will be one of those shaved corners that did not fit


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## FORESTGUMP (May 14, 2008)

Greysides said:


> I did imply it was a personal thing....
> 
> They archers you mention are using clickers to know when to release. They can focus on elsewhat until it clicks and be fine. My problem was controlling the release or rather NOT controlling the release.
> 
> ...


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## steve morley (Dec 24, 2005)

I think it would be good if some of us took a step back and just define what we consider as TP.

2001 my first encounter with TP Instinctively, it was like I suddenly forgot how to aim and had no confidence in my sight picture, it caused my bowhand to jerk on release. These days I still consider myself as having TP but from a spectator point they wouldnt see anything physical to indicate TP. 

The other week at NAFAC I had a problem where I reached my gap, all was good and for no apparent reason I raised slightly above the Gap, so now consciously knowing the Gap is wrong I had to either start the shot again or wait for the gap to drop back down, either way it impacted on my scores. I know the reason, my arrows didnt fly well due to damaged rest and broken screw on Handle during my flights, also I made some form changes a 3-4 weeks earlier and didnt really have time to ingrain them well enough to reach a good enough level of tourney confidence, for me it wasnt a big issue, as in I didnt get stressed or upset, I knew I just need more time to settle into new higher anchor and slightly different gaps. There was no outward physical indication of TP but I knew it was there. I wasnt under any undue tourney pressure as I thought I was not allowed to win as previous years they only allowed guest status.

You cannot tell me in all honesty nobody here has never double clutched their release, thats a TP reaction, blimey Ive even seen Byron do it.


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## itbeso (Jul 6, 2005)

steve morley said:


> I think it would be good if some of us took a step back and just define what we consider as TP.
> 
> 2001 my first encounter with TP Instinctively, it was like I suddenly forgot how to aim and had no confidence in my sight picture, it caused my bowhand to jerk on release. These days I still consider myself as having TP but from a spectator point they wouldnt see anything physical to indicate TP.
> 
> ...


Sharp hasn't, according to the latest rumor.:teeth:


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

oh - so now if someone once in a while makes a funky release or hesitates on a shot or releases too fast - that they have TP - everyone flubs shots on different levels from time to time - that is not TP - that is being human.

The beginings of TP, in my book anyhow - would be when an issue keeps popping up - not just once in a blue moon - and full blown TP is when that issue happens more often than not - and this issue is uncontrollable or appears uncontrollable


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## itbeso (Jul 6, 2005)

sharpbroadhead said:


> oh - so now if someone once in a while makes a funky release or hesitates on a shot or releases too fast - that they have TP - everyone flubs shots on different levels from time to time - that is not TP - that is being human.
> 
> The beginings of TP, in my book anyhow - would be when an issue keeps popping up - not just once in a blue moon - and full blown TP is when that issue happens more often than not - and this issue is uncontrollable or appears uncontrollable


Ken, it took me about 50 years to be able to laugh at myself and not take myself too seriously. I don't think you are even close to being able to do that because there are a lot of times when you take things that are light in nature and react way too seriously to them. Just sayin


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

in this format - sometimes it is difficult to tell what the tone of a comment is - many times things that I said that I meant to be tongue in cheeck were taken as serious - and I have taken things that were meant the same as serious - it is the nature of the format


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## steve morley (Dec 24, 2005)

Im not saying the odd double clutch is full blown TP but it is a TP (lack of confidence) reaction and caused by the exact same issues as somebody with full blown TP, the only difference is some Archers it never develops into an issue and others it slowly becomes more frequent and suddenly its a serious problem.

What Im saying is if you double clutch those shots more often than youre comfortable with, then it is a good time to develop some drills to prevent it developing into a more serious problem, prevention is a lot easier than trying to fix it once youve got it full on.


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

steve morley said:


> Im not saying the odd double clutch is full blown TP but it is a TP (lack of confidence) reaction and caused by the exact same issues as somebody with full blown TP, the only difference is some Archers it never develops into an issue and others it slowly becomes more frequent and suddenly its a serious problem.
> 
> What Im saying is if you double clutch those shots more often than youre comfortable with, then it is a good time to develop some drills to prevent it developing into a more serious problem, prevention is a lot easier than trying to fix it once youve got it full on.


:thumbs_up

Ray :shade:


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## FORESTGUMP (May 14, 2008)

steve morley said:


> I think it would be good if some of us took a step back and just define what we consider as TP.
> 
> 2001 my first encounter with TP Instinctively, it was like I suddenly forgot how to aim and had no confidence in my sight picture, it caused my bowhand to jerk on release. These days I still consider myself as having TP but from a spectator point they wouldnt see anything physical to indicate TP.
> 
> ...




My reaction to your first statement was,'yep,that's true,' because I can't take people serious who claim that every little boo boo is the dreaded TP.
Your description of your own experience with the disease was good. Jinks said almost the same thing in a previous post and though I've not had the problem I do believe at some point in time those who play the game at higher levels of competitiveness could be overwhelmed in some way and have a problem like this.
And then,you turned around and made the statement that says to me that any little thing that happens,like ' double clutch' the release is an indicator of TP. Can't go there. Everyone makes some kind of mistake at one time or another,some more than others,but that doesn't mean it's TP. This is why I kind of make light of the whole idea,so many people claiming that anyhing they can think up is target panic.


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## Arcus (Jul 7, 2005)

sharpbroadhead said:


> LOL - are you implying that I ignored that for a reason - what he is saying there is in a different chapter and I did not feel like typing all of that since he is talking about two different things in these two different and distinct chapters - one is a subconscious fear - the other is allowing the subconscious to regulate the shot.


Your quotes and mine are NOT from different chapters. They are both from chapter two. You might quibble that they are different sub-chapters, but what I quoted is immediately followed by what you quoted, so they are indeed related.

I scanned these pages from the book with the intent of posting them here, but the resulting pdf file exceeds the limit allowed here.


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## Brianlocal3 (Dec 14, 2011)

Here is my take on target panic. It's an anxiety for some like test taking. It all boils down to lack of confidence and on the whole it's a crock of horse manure people just come up with to make excuses for why you struggle or have a bad day. I will never be as good s shot as some such as Jimmy and Ken, but I can and will forever be able to ethically put blood on the ground. 

This target panic talk is idiotic. At bet what it does is convince people they have it. Go on to web md and look up the symptoms of a disease you have never heard of and by time you are done reading it you can convince yourself you are afflicted with it. 
This is getting old


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## Sanford (Jan 26, 2009)

Forrest, I think that those who shoot at higher levels of competition have so much in common - they tend to shoot more alike, they shoot and shoot and shoot repetitively, daily, and at the same thing most times. It's not surprising that TP gets associated with them more than with other shooters, either more passive shooters or shooters with less rigid form requirements.

I also would not blame every little glitch in form on target panic, as that is just using symptoms to blame or create an affliction. A cold can have a fever, but not all fevers are a cold. If the double clutch was becoming very common and uncontrollable at stopping, it might be a good sign you have lost control of release timing, and that is a good indicator for TP. If you just double clutched, it might just be that, a momentary glitch.


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## Sanford (Jan 26, 2009)

Arcus said:


> Your quotes and mine are NOT from different chapters. They are both from chapter two. You might quibble that they are different sub-chapters, but what I quoted is immediately followed by what you quoted, so they are indeed related.
> 
> I scanned these pages from the book with the intent of posting them here, but the resulting pdf file exceeds the limit allowed here.


What he quoted was standard fare concerning coaching "aiming" with an aperture v. aiming with a pin in Oly style shooting. One creates more pressure on the shooter and one is more geared for concentric circle shooting and allows less concentration. Because it had some key words, it seemed to fit, but it doesn't really apply to the discussion at all.


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## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

Brianlocal3 said:


> Here is my take on target panic. It's an anxiety for some like test taking. It all boils down to lack of confidence and on the whole it's a crock of horse manure people just come up with to make excuses for why you struggle or have a bad day. I will never be as good s shot as some such as Jimmy and Ken, but I can and will forever be able to ethically put blood on the ground.
> 
> This target panic talk is idiotic. At bet what it does is convince people they have it. Go on to web md and look up the symptoms of a disease you have never heard of and by time you are done reading it you can convince yourself you are afflicted with it.
> This is getting old


Hmph....i actually agree with that...and for verification?..back in the mid 80's (when i first got around "organized competitive archery")?...the elders in the know actually considered it to be TABOO to even speak the phrase "Target Panic" especially at the range and extra especially before/during a major match...one of those things where if someone explains to you what it is?..you're subconscious will figure out a way to contract it. :laugh:

More proof?...okay..back when i first started posting in this forum?..some folks called me out right away and picked me off....claiming i had TP...while i insisted that "No...i'm just a snap-shooter"...and from my old school training regarding blatent, open-use of that label on fellow archers?..i was appauled and denied the truth...iow?..i lied..a white lie...because i was in the midst of fighting just that condition...and the last thing i needed at the moment was folks verifying that fact for me! :zip:

so?..yep...if a lot of folks learn enough about it?..they'll dang sure come down with it!..so again.. :zip:


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## MGF (Oct 27, 2012)

Brianlocal3 said:


> Here is my take on target panic. It's an anxiety for some like test taking. It all boils down to lack of confidence and on the whole it's a crock of horse manure people just come up with to make excuses for why you struggle or have a bad day. I will never be as good s shot as some such as Jimmy and Ken, but I can and will forever be able to ethically put blood on the ground.
> 
> This target panic talk is idiotic. At bet what it does is convince people they have it. Go on to web md and look up the symptoms of a disease you have never heard of and by time you are done reading it you can convince yourself you are afflicted with it.
> This is getting old



Test taking? I went to college when I was pushing 30, already had a family and had been out of school for a long time. I was so scared when I took my first mid-term that I couldn't hardly remember my name. I had to learn how to take tests. After bombing that first mid-term, I held a 4.0 up until my last semester or two when I took a huge class load to finish early and graduated with a 3.8x (I don't remember exactly). I worked through it and I did it in short order.

I've had some problems with my shooting and some of it might qualify as "target panic" I worked through it and I continue to improve.

You do or you do not do. Excuses are irrelevant. The purpose for describing a problem is to better facilitate the description of a solution.

Where's the idiotic part?


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## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

MGF said:


> I've had some problems with my shooting *and some of it might qualify as "target panic"* I worked through it and I continue to improve.
> 
> You do or you do not do. Excuses are irrelevant. The purpose for describing a problem is to better facilitate the description of a solution.
> 
> Where's the idiotic part?


MGF...

The statement in *Bold* above: Tells me you may have suffered some serious form issues or a glitch in your mental shot sequence but to someone who's actually suffered through it?..that statement sounds like "being a little bit pregnant"..seriously...if a an archer gets it?..in short order there won't be any question what it is..but it NEVER "might qualify"..it either definantli is or definantly isn't.

The Underlined statement?: couldn't agree more..matter fact?..i can say that without a doubt?..(besides the physical drills i've been commited to the past 5-6 weeks)..that these open discussions regrarding TP are greatly helping me work through mine..for the first time in well over 2 decades.

However...the disease must first be ACCURATELY diagnosed before the proper remedial actions can take place.


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## Brianlocal3 (Dec 14, 2011)

Funny you mention college and age. I just turned 31 on Tuesday and also just finished my first semester of college. 12 credit hours 4.0. Let's see here, I am a father of two toddlers sit on the executive board of my local union, teach bible study on Wednesday night and do visitations on tuesday night while working a 40 hr job. My wife works 50 out of 52 weekends a year pulling 12-13 he shifts as an RN so I take care of my children then also. I know what it's like being busy and trying to pass school. So yes it's idiotic to get worked up and worried over stuff. Especially a HOBBY.


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## GPW (May 12, 2012)

It’s all in the mind !!! Focus , concentration , and Yoga breathing helps ... sorta’ like having sex...


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## Brianlocal3 (Dec 14, 2011)

GPW , funny


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## Arcus (Jul 7, 2005)

MGF said:


> The purpose for describing a problem is to better facilitate the description of a solution.


:thumbs_up


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## Arcus (Jul 7, 2005)

Brianlocal3 said:


> So yes it's idiotic to get worked up and worried over stuff. Especially a HOBBY.


I've had TP, but I did not "get worked up and worried." I was puzzled why I was doing it and sought advice on how to correct it so that I could better enjoy my hobby. If you want to call that being idiotic, so be it.


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## Arcus (Jul 7, 2005)

Brianlocal3 said:


> This is getting old


You are not being forced to read the thread.


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

Arcus - now who is playing games - ok - different sub-chapter - different bold faced headings - and more importantly - different subjects - one is dealing with subconscious FEARS - the other is dealing with shooting


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## steve morley (Dec 24, 2005)

FORESTGUMP said:


> My reaction to your first statement was,'yep,that's true,' because I can't take people serious who claim that every little boo boo is the dreaded TP.
> Your description of your own experience with the disease was good. Jinks said almost the same thing in a previous post and though I've not had the problem I do believe at some point in time those who play the game at higher levels of competitiveness could be overwhelmed in some way and have a problem like this.
> And then,you turned around and made the statement that says to me that any little thing that happens,like ' double clutch' the release is an indicator of TP. Can't go there. Everyone makes some kind of mistake at one time or another,some more than others,but that doesn't mean it's TP. This is why I kind of make light of the whole idea,so many people claiming that anyhing they can think up is target panic.


I dont know if you every watch any of the target matches on the WA Target circuit, you wont see any of them double clutch a shot and the whole match is geared for pressure shooting, lot of spectators, Tv cameras and head to head knock out rounds, the only indication of pressure I ever saw was a Korean woman with a facial twitch, she still made great shots. 

Everybody suffers from nerves, some deal with it better than others and are able to still make good shots under pressure, I will stress again that a double clutch is a TP* like* action it doesnt mean you have TP but if it happens too frequently it may be time to take action to prevent it becoming a bigger problem.

The only time I suffer from TP symptons is when I know I havent done enough work to shoot at the level I would like too, I have won international tourneys under extreme pressure in front of large crowds and Tv cameras, if Ive done my ground work before the tourney and know in my own mind Im good enough, Im well able to deal with the pressure without any form issues.

Before I got TP shooting was easy, I didnt need to do much work to shoot good scores, I was kinda lazy. After I got TP I had to (and still do) work very hard at my shooting to build a good level of confidence, looking back I think the TP made me a better shooter.


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## MGF (Oct 27, 2012)

JINKSTER said:


> MGF...
> 
> The statement in *Bold* above: Tells me you may have suffered some serious form issues or a glitch in your mental shot sequence but to someone who's actually suffered through it?..that statement sounds like "being a little bit pregnant"..seriously...if a an archer gets it?..in short order there won't be any question what it is..but it NEVER "might qualify"..it either definantli is or definantly isn't.


I said "might" because I see folks here arguing about what is or isn't target panic. You talk as if it's obvious. I don't know,


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## Brianlocal3 (Dec 14, 2011)

It's not the thread in general that's old. It's the same stuff over nd over throughout multiple threads. You have this one, the oh jimmy jimmy thread. Thats right now. Tomorow or the day after it will change. But the same premise will be there. 
I stayed out of the thread and NEVER opened it until page 11. Then I wanted to come in and see what BS was being written about now. It's like the old "daddy didn't hug me enough" crap people spout off when they loose their grip in reality or have coping issues. Its making a problem where one does not exist and weak minded people who cannot see past their own fears so therefore it will happen to everyone and it's a big bad monster.

Let Ken (OSB) who kills deer with a rage post about it and there will be 20 pages about how the rage cannot work in traditional. Yet he proves it and proves it well. Then let someone post a pic of their first ever traditional harvest and there will be 5-10 comments and congrats and then the thread dies. Less time trying to "help" others or fix them and see let's just see some congrats floating


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

Well - if his first trad kill was with a Rage - it would get 20 pages -  - seriously - nice post and good points


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## steve morley (Dec 24, 2005)

Brian I think most people are just sharing personal experiences of TP and how they deal with it, some posts may be of use and some may not, its a matter of just taking what you need from the Topic and leaving the rest. 

If its *all* BS to you then walk away and find a topic that interests you more, I see no need to trash people just for wanting to help others and share experiences.


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## Brianlocal3 (Dec 14, 2011)

You are 100% correct Steve. And I am doing just that. Good luck y'all


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## Arcus (Jul 7, 2005)

sharpbroadhead said:


> Arcus - now who is playing games - ok - different sub-chapter - different bold faced headings - and more importantly - different subjects - one is dealing with subconscious FEARS - the other is dealing with shooting


To use words you are fond of using, this is hilarious, this is ridiculous, this is absurd, LOL, etc.

If anyone does not have this book and wishes to see the referenced pages in their entirety, pm me and I'll send you the scanned pages. You will see that Henderson is describing his own battle with TP and how he overcame it, followed by how he helped his students overcome it.

BTW, way back on page 8 of this thread, when I commented about my preference for listening to the advice of people who have had TP and how they overcame it, you reminded that, and I quote, "But this thread is not about overcoming it - it is about not getting it in the first place - how to AVOID target panic - not how to live with it or cure it once you get it." And here you are quoting sources about how to do that very thing.


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

what? Wow - what a twist that is - 

what you quoted is dealing with subconscious FEARS - - when I brought up the book - i was talking about AVOIDING TP by allowing the shot to be subconscious - which is EXACTLY what the subchapter that I quoted is about - you are right - this is absurd. He gives an example of a person who was beginning to get TP and AVOIDED IT by aiming at a subconsious level - HOW MUCH CLEARER WOULD YOU LIKE IT?


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## Sanford (Jan 26, 2009)

sharpbroadhead said:


> He gives an example of a person who was beginning to get TP and AVOIDED IT by aiming at a subconsious level - HOW MUCH CLEARER WOULD YOU LIKE IT?


That's the problem in how "you" read it because you see the word "subconscious" and then work that one word backwards into your theory. If you understood what he was coaching and how, which you don't shoot Oly sighted, you would understand that he is describing how to not let the pin drive the shot - how to let the aim float, which is better accomplished for many in that situation with an aperture, which is common coaching in sighted Oly archery. Sharp, you really need to get some books on how you shoot, if they make them, otherwise, your rewriting of other coaches work is just frustratingly confusing to folks who don't know better.

Read the summation again: "His subconscious centers the ring on the gold, and he's not trying to hold anything still. You might say that the ring is helping him surround the gold and bring it to hiim, make it part of him an dthe shot...as opposed to attempting to assault the gold with a little dot that tries to bounce off the gold like that gold spot had a rubber barrier around it."

The aim is conscious, the "hold" on aim is more subconscious. Nowhere in that whole post you made does it say to make the shot subconscious. Only you make that out of it. If it was subconscious as you describe your shot, he wouldn't even suggest a sight at all, would he?


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## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

Sanford said:


> That's the problem in how "you" read it because you see the word "subconscious" and then work that one word backwards into your theory. If you understood what he was coaching and how, which you don't shoot Oly sighted, you would understand that he is describing how to not let the pin drive the shot - how to let the aim float, which is better accomplished for many in that situation with an aperture, which is common coaching in sighted Oly archery. Sharp, you really need to get some books on how you shoot, if they make them, otherwise, your rewriting of other coaches work is just frustratingly confusing to folks who don't know better.
> 
> Read the summation again: "His subconscious centers the ring on the gold, and he's not trying to hold anything still. You might say that the ring is helping him surround the gold and bring it to hiim, make it part of him an dthe shot...as opposed to attempting to assault the gold with a little dot that tries to bounce off the gold like that gold spot had a rubber barrier around it."
> 
> The aim is conscious, the "hold" on aim is more subconscious. Nowhere in that whole post you made does it say to make the shot subconscious. Only you make that out of it. If it was subconscious as you describe your shot, he wouldn't even suggest a sight at all, would he?


well it's official..Sanford knows a thing or two about sight shooting. :thumbs_up


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## Sanford (Jan 26, 2009)

JINKSTER said:


> well it's official..Sanford knows a thing or two about sight shooting. :thumbs_up


Yep, Jinks, you can boil that whole thing down to what is called the "sight picture", which given our human frailties in the inability to ever be able to hold a bow steady enough to hit a mark of any size, our brain has a way to make the sight work after all.


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

wow he is a bit full of himself - I fully understand and understood what he meant - read the book, the entire book in its context - he has an entire chapter on the subconscious - you might learn something, because, believe it or not - there is always more to learn


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## Jimmy Blackmon (Sep 9, 2010)

In the interview I did with Tim Strickland he spoke about this when he first coached at the Oly Tng Ctr. You can't hold the sight still nor can you hold the bow still. It's an impossible task so that is why he taught from the book Power Archery. The best way to shoot with consistency was with back tension pulling through the shot. Rod says you can't get it all lined up and still and then sneak off the string. It's impossible so you pull through. When aiming both of them say to let the pin float. Rod shot rifles and it's the same thing at distance. You can't possibly hold it still so you have to take that leap of faith and let it float. Rod says that the subconscious will get it there as you shoot. It's an amazing thing - the brain. It wants you to hit. Tim told Darrell Pace, who was struggling that afternoon, to let the pin float then expand and pull through. TRUST that it will be there. That is a big leap but a powerful one once you can do it. I think only a handful of archers truly ever get there.


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

it can work backwards too - the subconscious does not know right from wrong - it only tries to do what it perceives the conscious as wanting - so if you are shooting at a target next to a try and you are really worried about hitting that tree and your conscious mind is pre-occupied with hitting that tree - quess where the subconscious will put that arrow?


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## Sanford (Jan 26, 2009)

Jimmy, that's an excellent post! Funny, I was watching your video on that 70M FITA today and watching for some issues that I have found recently in videoing myself. My issue is a slight cant at full draw that's form related, but not that I saw that in yours, but what struck me as very noticeable was the control in stillness through the shot. Granted, we can't hold a pin/bow steady enough to hit as small as we do hit, if ever a bow appeared rock steady through he shot, your did,.


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## Speck1 (Jul 31, 2012)

sharpbroadhead said:


> it can work backwards too - the subconscious does not know right from wrong - it only tries to do what it perceives the conscious as wanting - so if you are shooting at a target next to a try and you are really worried about hitting that tree and your conscious mind is pre-occupied with hitting that tree - quess where the subconscious will put that arrow?


I remember Tom doing that at the 2011 Trad World. Speck


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## Arcus (Jul 7, 2005)

sharpbroadhead said:


> what? Wow - what a twist that is -
> 
> what you quoted is dealing with subconscious FEARS - - when I brought up the book - i was talking about AVOIDING TP by allowing the shot to be subconscious - which is EXACTLY what the subchapter that I quoted is about - you are right - this is absurd. He gives an example of a person who was beginning to get TP and AVOIDED IT by aiming at a subconsious level - HOW MUCH CLEARER WOULD YOU LIKE IT?


You conveniently left this part out: "Now, when I have a student use the ring to conquer target panic..." 

To conquer something, you must already have it in the first place.

And by the way, using condescension and all capital letters does not make it so.


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

Boberau said:


> That's focus. That's relaxation. That's being "in the moment" of each and every single shot..


Learning to be in the moment without anxiety is key to avoiding and/or curing TP.

Ray :shade:


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## 2413gary (Apr 10, 2008)

Ok I figured it out how not to get TP. Don't look for it it's like when we riding a bike and there is a rock in the road you look at the rock. And wham you hit the rock. Quit looking at the rock.


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

once again - taking what is said after something and then comparing it - the first story was with someone who had the beginnings of target panic - something can work to avoid and cure something at the same time - sort of like eating right - but enough of this - nothing I say or Al Henderson said is going to change your mind - so you go on believing whatever it is you believe - and I will believe what I want to believe.


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## steve morley (Dec 24, 2005)

Ken is still using the Procrustian solution, he believes that because he is a totally subconscious shooter and has never had TP this is the solution to stopping TP.

Ken you took a few quotes about subconscious aiming from Books and somehow turned it into about making it the way you shoot i.e. the *whole* shot subconscious, this is just not true, I pointed this out to you earlier and if you read the quotes again Al asked the guy to consciously focus on the spot and to consciously decide where he wanted the arrow to go but wanted him to allow the sight ring to subconsciously float instead of trying to focus on holding the pin rock steady which we all know is impossible and was the reason for the guys stress, Al never mentioned anything about making the shot sequence subconscious, again in you posts you say make the *shot* subconscious which to me and others means making the whole shot sequence subconscious and is not what is being taught by Oly coachs, I fear you will confuse a lot of new people.

I am not saying this way you claim to shoot totally subconscious is wrong as its obviously working very well for you, Im just pointing out this is not what the Oly Coachs are teaching.


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

Speck - I missed you post before - LOL - Tom does that a lot - even at my indoor range - he totally freaks out if he has to shoot under a branch or near a tree or something - and everytime - the arrow goes in it! When I go to outdoor shoots with him I bring a hammer and screwdriver to retrieve the arrows out of the trees - 

Steve - this is why I did not want to begin the quotes - it does not matter - read both books - both books focus on making the whole shot subconscious - everthing - so that when you get to the line the ONLY thing you think about at a conscious level is what you want to hit. Read the books if you are interested - if not - just go on believing what you want.


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## steve morley (Dec 24, 2005)

Olympic Coach Kim Hyung Tak never mentioned the Subconscious once in his book or when I trained with him.


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## J. Wesbrock (Dec 17, 2003)

Jimmy Blackmon said:


> In the interview I did with Tim Strickland he spoke about this when he first coached at the Oly Tng Ctr. You can't hold the sight still nor can you hold the bow still. It's an impossible task so that is why he taught from the book Power Archery. The best way to shoot with consistency was with back tension pulling through the shot. Rod says you can't get it all lined thup and still and then sneak off the string. It's impossible so you pull through. When aiming both of them say to let the pin float. Rod shot rifles and it's the same thing at distance. You can't possibly hold it still so you have to take that leap of faith and let it float. Rod says that the subconscious will get it there as you shoot. It's an amazing thing - the brain. It wants you to hit. Tim told Darrell Pace, who was struggling that afternoon, to let the pin float then expand and pull through. TRUST that it will be there. That is a big leap but a powerful one once you can do it. I think only a handful of archers truly ever get there.


That's one of the best pieces of archery advice I've read in a long time. We call it "shooting the wobble." I seem to remember Jay Barrs talking about it on a video he did a long time ago. There a couple other nuggets of info Scott told me Tim explained to him during one of their conversations that have helped me fine tune some things in my own shot execution. Tim's definitely the kind of guy who's brain I'd like to pick for a day or so.


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

If anyone wants to see how hard it is to keep their bow pointed on target...just attach a lazer pointer to their bow and try to hold the lazer dot on the bullseye :wink:

Ray :shade:


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## itbeso (Jul 6, 2005)

BLACK WOLF said:


> If anyone wants to see how hard it is to keep their bow pointed on target...just attach a lazer pointer to their bow and try to hold the lazer dot on the bullseye :wink:
> 
> Ray :shade:


I'm just wondering if an instinctive wobble is tighter than a gap wobble? This could clear up a lot of arguments.:darkbeer:


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## Sanford (Jan 26, 2009)

itbeso said:


> I'm just wondering if an instinctive wobble is tighter than a gap wobble? This could clear up a lot of arguments.:darkbeer:


Instinctive wobble has to be way less to non-existent, they don't see anything - nothing to wobble


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

itbeso said:


> I'm just wondering if an instinctive wobble is tighter than a gap wobble? This could clear up a lot of arguments.:darkbeer:


LOL...that again can depend on the shooter...no matter what their aiming technique is :wink:

Since wobble exists with every archer that is using a hand held bow...I believe the archer who has the best timing in regards to aiming with everything else being equal...will be the more accurate shot.

Timing plays a HUGE roll in BOTH aiming and form.

The advantage with Instinctive Aiming is the archer isn't consciously visually aware of the wobble...BUT...than again...it really is dependent on the archer and their goals, abilities and personality if that's really an advantage or not :wink: I know some shooters that will consciously try to make figure 8's through the target as they are aiming and consciously try to time the shot at some level.

Ray :shade:


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## Dewey3 (May 6, 2012)

BLACK WOLF said:


> If anyone wants to see how hard it is to keep their bow pointed on target...just attach a lazer pointer to their bow and try to hold the lazer dot on the bullseye :wink:
> 
> Ray :shade:


THAT might well induce target panic in someone !!! :wink:


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

Dewey3 said:


> THAT might well induce target panic in someone !!! :wink:


LOL...ABSOLUTELY! When I first did it....I was like holy crap....how in the world does anyone hit the target :wink:

Ray :shade:


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

isn't what Strickland said - the same thing that I have said numerous times- "surrender the shot to the subconscious" - trust your subconscious - it will do its job - don't interfere with it - etc... - every book I have read about archery and shooting sports has said this in one manner or another - yet in this forum - if I say it - it leads to pages and pages of debate - funny how that works


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## Arcus (Jul 7, 2005)

sharpbroadhead said:


> once again - taking what is said after something and then comparing it - the first story was with someone who had the beginnings of target panic - something can work to avoid and cure something at the same time - sort of like eating right - but enough of this - nothing I say or Al Henderson said is going to change your mind - so you go on believing whatever it is you believe - and I will believe what I want to believe.


I went to a medium this morning, who conjured Al's spirit. Al told me that I was right.


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## GPW (May 12, 2012)

Real target panic is when the game is much BIGGER than you are .... hard to reach the subconscious when you’re thinking about being ... eaten ...or trampled , or worse :mg: Good cause for “distraction “ there, even more important to stay in your “Zone” ...


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## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

Found my cure and way of never getting TP again...i just NEVER...EVER..."miss'...as i recently concluded that..

my arrows ALWAYS seem to strike EXACTLY where i shot them! :laugh:


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## MGF (Oct 27, 2012)

JINKSTER said:


> Found my cure and way of never getting TP again...i just NEVER...EVER..."miss'...as i recently concluded that..
> 
> my arrows ALWAYS strike EXATCTLY where i shot them! :laugh:


That's working for me...today. I just don't know what I'm going to do if I ever miss again.

No joke. It's really nasty out today. It's cold with wind gusts to 45 mph. I've been shooting too much anyway so every hour or so I go out and take one or two shots...slow and deliberate. Like when you're hunting, it's the first shot that counts. Everything is good. So good that it's starting to make me nervous. LOL


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## FORESTGUMP (May 14, 2008)

MGF said:


> That's working for me...today. I just don't know what I'm going to do if I ever miss again.
> 
> No joke. It's really nasty out today. It's cold with wind gusts to 45 mph. I've been shooting too much anyway so every hour or so I go out and take one or two shots...slow and deliberate. Like when you're hunting, it's the first shot that counts. Everything is good. So good that it's starting to make me nervous. LOL



No need to be nervous, I did not charge you for that little tip.:wink: It can be a good confidence builder because eventually you accept that you can hit what you want to hit anytime you want to. Within reason of course. When you get it down you can start adding the kinks in. Different angles,thru the shrubs or bushes,over an obstacle like weeds, anything to make it challenging and more fun.
One of my favorite summer time shots with lots of leaves on the bushes is to hide the target behind a bush and position myself behind another bush about 25yds away. That way I have to put the arrow thru or maybe over branches on my bush and also thru the bush the target is hiding behind. Gotta really look what you are doing to make it work right.

I guess this post is off topic,soooo don't panic. There that should fix it.


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## MGF (Oct 27, 2012)

FORESTGUMP said:


> No need to be nervous, I did not charge you for that little tip.:wink: It can be a good confidence builder because eventually you accept that you can hit what you want to hit anytime you want to. Within reason of course. When you get it down you can start adding the kinks in. Different angles,thru the shrubs or bushes,over an obstacle like weeds, anything to make it challenging and more fun.
> One of my favorite summer time shots with lots of leaves on the bushes is to hide the target behind a bush and position myself behind another bush about 25yds away. That way I have to put the arrow thru or maybe over branches on my bush and also thru the bush the target is hiding behind. Gotta really look what you are doing to make it work right.
> 
> I guess this post is off topic,soooo don't panic. There that should fix it.


Yes. I need to get a tree stand up in the back yard.


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## Pixel (Sep 19, 2019)

very helpful


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## HawkeyeII (Sep 19, 2019)

I know mine started by over bowing myself. I reduced my weight by 10 pounds and practiced form to stop it.


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## Clays (Apr 18, 2019)

Mine was probably overthinking too much when I was teaching archery. I would freeze at the release. This is a very helpful thread!


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