# Was 290fps rule for ASA really needed?



## shootstraight (Apr 28, 2005)

I don't think it matters much at all. I'm guessing with the use of more dual cam style bows used for target the speeds are going up. Back then the dominate bows were 300-310 IBO bows, now there are many that are 330-340 that are used for target.


----------



## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

shootstraight said:


> I don't think it matters much at all. I'm guessing with the use of more dual cam style bows used for target the speeds are going up. Back then the dominate bows were 300-310 IBO bows, now there are many that are 330-340 that are used for target.


Did you bumb your up in speed. Older I get the lesser poundage works for me. Not more!
DB


----------



## J Whittington (Nov 13, 2009)

I would like to see ASA return to a 280 speed and 45yd max. IBO is a totally different game, especially with the rhinehardt targets, I think the amount of archers supporting both has and will continue to decline.

IMHO, doing so would help the ASA staff. More classes (open A and up) could share the same ranges, with out the complaints of a 45 yard class shooting a 50 course..... unlimited got hosed on Saturday in ky

I was happy to see some of my old IBO buddies at ky


----------



## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

This was on the ASA forums when first announced. Right now the 290 fps is just out for a test spin. Still, just other things that go up, it's hard to bring down.

I've lived with 280 fps for so long I don't see a reason for 290 fps.

I don't run the national circuit, but do take in a lot of regular club 3Ds. I don't see honkin' on speeds. ??? Two months ago I chronographed my bow at a 3D, 284.5 fps read out. By the one over the chronograph I had one of the fastest checked. I don't know how many people had their bows checked, but there was 138 shooters for the two days.


----------



## salmon killer (Jun 19, 2011)

There is IBO out west but the venue is small 3 shoots .But other than that it is all club shoots with no speed limits my shooting buddy shoots 330/335 fps I shoot 305fps there are a lot of people shooting faster.It would be nice if the playing field was even best judge of yardage and shooter wins.But I don't see it happening.I wish the ASA would come west and get organized.Its hard to compete with a guy shooting 340 to 350 fps


----------



## outbackarcher (Oct 31, 2005)

I don't mind the increase in speed and I think that it helps me on the longer shots with yardage. My sight scale tightened up some after I change my bow around.


----------



## shootstraight (Apr 28, 2005)

Daniel Boone said:


> Did you bumb your up in speed. Older I get the lesser poundage works for me. Not more!
> DB


 I was shooting inserts with 100 grain tips, I replaced them with 85 grain tips and went to 290 fps. Not gonna change anything else on my setup as I don't think that bit of speed will do anything. I don't personally think speed will help much at all, most seeking high speeds are using that as a bandaid for poor judging. If you're in a class that is unknown obviously you need to spend time judging.


----------



## Logjamb (May 14, 2008)

I shoot the Unlimited Class ASA and the only difference between 280 to 290 fps I see is my gap tightened between 40-50 yards. And that really helped Saturday London KY. I don't think we got hosed, before the start Saturday the range official announced that we would see targets over our max. He just didn't say WAAAAAYYYYY over. lol


----------



## salmon killer (Jun 19, 2011)

shootstraight said:


> I was shooting inserts with 100 grain tips, I replaced them with 85 grain tips and went to 290 fps. Not gonna change anything else on my setup as I don't think that bit of speed will do anything. I don't personally think speed will help much at all, most seeking high speeds are using that as a bandaid for poor judging. If you're in a class that is unknown obviously you need to spend time judging.


ts a good thing to have speed limits in 3D to keep the playing field as even as you can. If you don't think arrow speed helps at shooting unknown distance you have never shoot with some guys that are shooting 40/50 fps higher than the ASA max and that are good at judging yardage and there are no limit to how far the targets can be set.Its easy to say the speed don't matter when you a know a target will not be past 60 yards. I was at a 3D shoot a week ago that had a antelope at 72! and a moose at 68 and a buffalo at 92! speed helps here.But its still fun!


----------



## tmorelli (Jul 31, 2005)

I didn't speed my rigs up at all... :shade:

The unknown shooters I am around regularly did though. They think it matters- so that's all that matters... to them. I don't think I'm good enough to really quantify a change of about 8-10 fps into score.

I do wonder if the little bump in speed and the IBO change to Rhineharts worked together as a perfect storm for KY attendance. I talked to quite a few first time ASA shooters (former IBO) who all seemed to be pleasantly surprised. I guess we'll see if IL does the same thing....


----------



## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

??? I shoot at the shop from 20 to 30 yards and I sometimes to forget to set my sight (dang customers). With 284 fps there is a big difference of impact between 20 and 30 yards. Having a bow that can do it, hit 294 fps with a different arrow, I'll measure the difference. 10 fps is 10 fps.


----------



## tmorelli (Jul 31, 2005)

SonnyThomas said:


> ??? I shoot at the shop from 20 to 30 yards and I sometimes to forget to set my sight (dang customers). With 284 fps there is a big difference of impact between 20 and 30 yards. Having a bow that can do it, hit 294 fps with a different arrow, I'll measure the difference. 10 fps is 10 fps.


sure, if you set your sight off by 10 yards, the difference will be magnified. Only I set my sight off by 10 yards.

I did this about a year ago. 

One rig shooting 300, one rig shooting 280. 40 yard target, 38 yard sight setting. Less than 1/8" difference in POI. 

Sure, the fps matters. If that little <1/8" gap didn't matter.... we wouldn't shoot fat arrows. Just don't make it more than it is.


----------



## salmon killer (Jun 19, 2011)

tmorelli said:


> sure, if you set your sight off by 10 yards, the difference will be magnified. Only I set my sight off by 10 yards.
> 
> I did this about a year ago.
> 
> ...


Let me get this right 20 FPS differance in arrow speed both bows set at 38 yards and only a 1/8 of an inch in arrow impact on the target between the to bows.Hmmm it isn't jiving LOL!


----------



## tmorelli (Jul 31, 2005)

salmon killer said:


> Let me get this right 20 FPS differance in arrow speed both bows set at 38 yards and only a 1/8 of an inch in arrow impact on the target between the to bows.Hmmm it isn't jiving LOL!


Okie dokie. Thats the difference between the two. The total drop in each is approximately 2". 

Go try it for yourself. Speed isn't near so much as it is made out to be. People who bumped 10 fps probably went one tape shorter. You know the difference in those two tapes from 20-50 yards is about 1 yard (just over 1" over a 30 yard span). 



Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2


----------



## Kstigall (Feb 24, 2004)

salmon killer said:


> Let me get this right 20 FPS differance in arrow speed both bows set at 38 yards and only a 1/8 of an inch in arrow impact on the target between the to bows.Hmmm it isn't jiving LOL!


I'm not sure if you are agreeing or disagreeing.......
What TMorelli found is pretty much a basic fact. If you shoot a 40 yard target for 38 yards the 300 fps faster arrow will hit about 1/8" higher than the 280 fps arrow, i.e. it drops 1/8" less from 38 to 40 yards.



I'm a slow typer..........combined with slow thinking I'm usually "late".


----------



## WhitBri (Jan 30, 2007)

I think it was the ASA giving in a little to the IBO guys and may be working with attendance up


----------



## Kstigall (Feb 24, 2004)

Seeing as I have only a 26" draw and I'm not getting younger I would say "NO" to 290 fps being needed.


----------



## shootstraight (Apr 28, 2005)

salmon killer said:


> ts a good thing to have speed limits in 3D to keep the playing field as even as you can. If you don't think arrow speed helps at shooting unknown distance you have never shoot with some guys that are shooting 40/50 fps higher than the ASA max and that are good at judging yardage and there are no limit to how far the targets can be set.Its easy to say the speed don't matter when you a know a target will not be past 60 yards. I was at a 3D shoot a week ago that had a antelope at 72! and a moose at 68 and a buffalo at 92! speed helps here.But its still fun!


I was responding to the OP's question with regards to ASA speed and distances, you guys out west play a different game ; )


----------



## 300MAG (Nov 26, 2005)

I don't care what the speed limit is I wish ibo had a speed limit. Guys with short draw lengths are at a disadvantage. They need to set a universal one. 300 fps is fine with me.


----------



## J Whittington (Nov 13, 2009)

I feel its the beginning of the end for ibo


----------



## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

tmorelli said:


> sure, if you set your sight off by 10 yards, the difference will be magnified. Only I set my sight off by 10 yards.
> 
> I did this about a year ago.
> 
> ...


Not really doubting you, but I'm going to find out. One bow and two different weight arrows, just one arrow gets flung 284 fps and the other 294 fps.


----------



## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

J Whittington said:


> I feel its the beginning of the end for ibo


If by some reports by IBO members they are liking the Rineharts more than ASA people like the McKenzies. So just maybe the beginning of the end got shoved to a later date.

Be kinda boring, just ASA and then how long is Mike going to own the ASA?
Is Regions going to get up and running and if they do, will they take a bite from both the ASA and IBO. And Regions also having the lack luster for quality McKenzies.

Just questions that only time will tell.....


----------



## Kstigall (Feb 24, 2004)

SonnyThomas said:


> Not really doubting you, but I'm going to find out. One bow and two different weight arrows, just one arrow gets flung 284 fps and the other 294 fps.


I've seen apps to calculate the trajectory difference.
Calculate the trajectory of an arrow between 38 and 40 yards. Once with an arrow velocity of 280 fps and again with it traveling at 300 fps.


----------



## tmorelli (Jul 31, 2005)

I had these in my photobucket... unfortunately I don't have OT2 on my PC anymore or I would rework them. These aren't the exact scenario but they are close. They say I was understating it a bit but not by much. What I can say for sure is that when evaluating for my purposes, I stayed where I was in favor or arrow weight over speed.


----------



## J Name (Dec 30, 2005)

Kstigall said:


> Seeing as I have only a 26" draw and I'm not getting younger I would say "NO" to 290 fps being needed.


26" draw and 7" brace height =19" 30" draw and 7" brace height = 23" so the short strokers don't have to hold steady as long for a good shot. I think everyone should have at least 22" of string time to level the playing field.


----------



## tmorelli (Jul 31, 2005)

J Name said:


> 26" draw and 7" brace height =19" 30" draw and 7" brace height = 23" so the short strokers don't have to hold steady as long for a good shot. I think everyone should have at least 22" of string time to level the playing field.


you aren't serious.


----------



## Bucks (Jul 27, 2005)

the premise... how fast were the top of the line bows when the 280 was invoked? maybe its in response to the fact the newer bows have to really be slowed down? For the serious guys who have completely different setups it shouldn't make one iota of difference on their results. for guys just entering the game, thinking they have to change their hunting rig may be a point of friction. my hunting bow is around 290 without having to play any games with it. 

as far as an IBO killer? I see them as two different games. ASA is closer to target archery, IBO is closer to hunting situations. Personally, I shoot for the enjoyment and challenge of competing with myself and perhaps my buddies, nothing more. My hyper-competitive days are long gone and were in different sports anyway.


----------



## J Name (Dec 30, 2005)

when they came up with the speed limit there wre a lot of shooters using overdraws and super light arrows for speed and blowing up bows on the courses so the ibo had the arrow to bow weight limit and asa used speed for a safety.in themed to late 80s 280 fps was a very fast bow/


----------



## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

tmorelli said:


> I had these in my photobucket... unfortunately I don't have OT2 on my PC anymore or I would rework them. These aren't the exact scenario but they are close. They say I was understating it a bit but not by much. What I can say for sure is that when evaluating for my purposes, I stayed where I was in favor or arrow weight over speed.


Why do we need the change then? 
DB


----------



## tmorelli (Jul 31, 2005)

Daniel Boone said:


> Why do we need the change then?
> DB


I don't think we do.... except in the case that it really promotes growth... and I don't think it does.

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2


----------



## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

Bucks said:


> the premise... how fast were the top of the line bows when the 280 was invoked? maybe its in response to the fact the newer bows have to really be slowed down?


Factory bows had IBO ratings of 330 fps back in year 2000. Back then it was said people just couldn't handle them. I don't know, I tried the Mathews Black Max and thought it shot great - owner would sell it....


----------



## salmon killer (Jun 19, 2011)

Oregon bow had 330 IBO in the mid 90s it had a 5 inch brace I shot it, it almost took my watch of no string stops in those days.


----------



## carlosii (Feb 25, 2007)

J Whittington said:


> I think the amount of archers supporting both has and will continue to decline.


i think almost every ASA shoot this year has seen an increase in attendence.


----------



## GreggWNY (Sep 6, 2002)

Kstigall said:


> I'm not sure if you are agreeing or disagreeing.......
> What TMorelli found is pretty much a basic fact. If you shoot a 40 yard target for 38 yards the 300 fps faster arrow will hit about 1/8" higher than the 280 fps arrow, i.e. it drops 1/8" less from 38 to 40 yards.


I could have used that 1/8" on a few targets in KY... :sad:


----------



## cenochs (May 2, 2007)

carlosii said:


> i think almost every ASA shoot this year has seen an increase in attendence.


Not all only 2 shoots have shown significant growth worth talking about


----------



## Kstigall (Feb 24, 2004)

J Name said:


> 26" draw and 7" brace height =19" 30" draw and 7" brace height = 23" so the short strokers don't have to hold steady as long for a good shot. I think everyone should have at least 22" of string time to level the playing field.


I hope you are just giving me a hard time and do not honestly believe that. 

In a game where "yardage guessing" is a part of it and the distances stretch out to 45 or 50 I'd gladly take the additional 30 fps over not having to "hold steady as long". I can get about 282 fps out of my Supra at 26" and using the same bow with a 30" draw I'd probably be shooting around 312 fps with a _bigger diameter_ arrow weighing more. 30 fps faster, bigger diameter shaft and more arrow weight beats a few less milliseconds on the string by a bunch.


----------



## Kstigall (Feb 24, 2004)

cenochs said:


> Not all only 2 shoots have shown significant growth worth talking about


Which are the 2 shoots most accessible to the ASA customer base AND the most accessible to the IBO customer base.

The Florida shoot has 4 major strikes against it. The first of which can be completely fixed only managed to increase growth.
1. It is the first shoot of the year and it is February. A lot of folks simply have not got outside and into 3D competitions. 
2. It is on the edge of the ASA customer base. It is a long ways for a lot of ASA customers.
3. It is literally on the edge of the country. Not many archers living on boats in open water. Draw a 400 mile circle around Newberry, FL and you'll have more big water in that circle than populated land. 

- For this tournament date to have greater participation it needs a more accessible location. Move it 200 miles north and it becomes much more accessible to many more archers. Including IBO shooters that are already "tournament" archers. It doesn't matter me however as I'm shooting spots in February!

Paris, TX and Louisiana have some of the same issues. On the periphery of the ASA customer base and a real long ways from the IBO customer base. But not anything like Newberry, FL.!!


----------



## tmorelli (Jul 31, 2005)

Kstigall said:


> Paris, TX and Louisiana have some of the same issues. On the periphery of the ASA customer base and a real long ways from the IBO customer base. But not anything like Newberry, FL.!!


TX, yes. LA, I don't understand the lower numbers (except if we think the entire boost elsewhere are IBO crossovers). It is one of, if not my personal favorite. West Monroe is less than 10 hours from all of GA, AL, MS, TN, OK, TX, AR.... most of NC/FL. Why don't shooters flock to this one?

The facilities are top notch. The ranges are always top notch. The practice ranges are always amongst the easiest to use. The SIMS is easy access. The vendor area is nice. The hotels are very near the shoot.... and seem more available with less gouging than other shoots.


----------



## Tallcatt (Jul 27, 2003)

cenochs said:


> Not all only 2 shoots have shown significant growth worth talking about


The overall Pro/Am attendance numbers for 2013 will be the largest in ASA history.

Likewise our Texas ASA Federation attendance is going to be our largest ever. We are at over 2200 total competitiors so far in 2013 with 3 more state qualifiers and the state championship yet to come. We should top out at approximately 2800 competitors for the year when all is said and done. Most other ASA state federations are also showing increased attendance for 2013. 

2013 will be ASA's best attendance ever at both the Pro/Am and State Federation level. 

Bottom line......ASA has got it going on.....


----------



## cenochs (May 2, 2007)

Tallcatt said:


> The overall Pro/Am attendance numbers for 2013 will be the largest in ASA history.
> 
> Likewise our Texas ASA Federation attendance is going to be our largest ever. We are at over 2200 total competitiors so far in 2013 with 3 more state qualifiers and the state championship yet to come. We should top out at approximately 2800 competitors for the year when all is said and done. Most other ASA state federations are also showing increased attendance for 2013.
> 
> ...


If you guys are going to have over 2800 in the Texas federation this year then why is the Texas Pro Am attendance 1099? 

I can't name you a ASA club or qualifier in KY where I live it is all IBO but the location is good and London gets the shooters!


----------



## tmorelli (Jul 31, 2005)

Tallcatt said:


> Likewise our Texas ASA Federation attendance is going to be our largest ever. We are at over 2200 total competitiors so far in 2013 with 3 more state qualifiers and the state championship yet to come. We should top out at approximately 2800 competitors for the year when all is said and done. Most other ASA state federations are also showing increased attendance for 2013.
> 
> 2013 will be ASA's best attendance ever at both the Pro/Am and State Federation level.
> 
> Bottom line......ASA has got it going on.....


I wonder why OK ASA Federation numbers are down this year.......


----------



## Kstigall (Feb 24, 2004)

cenochs said:


> If you guys are going to have over 2800 in the Texas federation this year then why is the Texas Pro Am attendance 1099?
> 
> I can't name you a ASA club or qualifier in KY where I live it is all IBO but the location is good and London gets the shooters!


The state federation may be large but Texas is also geographically huge at 266,874 sq miles. Geographically bigger than Ga, Ala, Ky, Tn and Ark combined (245,848 sq miles). There is no great mystery as to why a location such as Paris, TX does not draw like those in some other locations. About 30 minutes of looking at a modest geographic information system makes it quickly understandable. Geocode just the zip codes of the ASA membership addresses that have shot a national tournament in the last 3 years along with the zipcodes of all the bow hunters from Texas to Virginia. Throw in transportation access to the potential customers and it's a :doh:


----------



## Tallcatt (Jul 27, 2003)

cenochs said:


> If you guys are going to have over 2800 in the Texas federation this year then why is the Texas Pro Am attendance 1099?
> 
> I can't name you a ASA club or qualifier in KY where I live it is all IBO but the location is good and London gets the shooters!


Thats a great question and it puzzles us as well. Here are some conclusions:

1. A lot of our state level shooters seem to be intimidated or just do not care about attending a Pro/Am. We are working diligently to enlighten them that its just like a state level event only bigger. 

2. Another problem is we have a BIG state. We have shooters that shoot some of local state level shoots that still have a 10 to 12 hour drive to the Paris event. Try driving from Amarillo or Del Rio or El Paso to Paris and you will see what I mean. 

3. The Paris event is on the western edge of ASA country. A good number of shooters from back east and southeast do not make the trip.

Let me be perfectly clear on one thing the 2800 shooter number is over 23 state level events which averages out to 122 shooters per event. A lot of these shooters are repeat customers that come to a lot of our shoots. Yeah it would be cool if we had 2800 different shooters and we could funnel each and every one to a Pro/Am but that is not the case. If you are ever in our neck of the woods you need try to make one of our shoots. You would not be dissapointed. Daniel Boone and tmorelli will vouch for us on that.

Even though it appears the Texas Pro/Am will have the lowest attendance for 2013 at 1099 shooters at the Pro/Am level.... two of my statements will still ring true.

1. 2013 Pro/Am attendance will set an all time ASA record.
2. 2013 Texas ASA attendance will set an all time ASA Federation record.


----------



## springy shooter (May 24, 2005)

I have shot enough of the Texas State qualifiers to agree with Mike....I would say their State qualifiers are second to none! Mike and Tracy do an exceptional job along with their support staff to put on, if not the best, but some of the best State Qualifiers there are! Well worth the time to shoot!


----------



## Tallcatt (Jul 27, 2003)

tmorelli said:


> I wonder why OK ASA Federation numbers are down this year.......


Tony. Our program is built on enthusiam, consistency and discipline. 

We promote our shoots on local forums and on Facebook. We have a great website and webmasters. Heck... we get our scores up faster than most national archery organizations. Tracy and I or one of our reps goes to each and every shoot to make sure they are consistently run and consistently organized. We provide very nice club specific awards for all Eagle and Youth shooters. As you know (since you won one last year:smile we provide beautiful buckles for the state championship and the SOY champions. And lastly we enforce the rules.

If the leadership is enthusiastic the clubs and the shooters will be enthusiastic, Shooters like consistency. If a shooters drives 1/2 way across Texas to attend one of our events they know what they are going to get....a quality shoot. Shooters like discipline. They like knowing that the shoot is going to start on time, the awards will be presented on time and that the rules will be enforced.

For a state program to excell motivated volunteers must "take the bull by the horns" and make it happen. If there in no one on board to do this the state programs will flounder in mediocrity or not exist at all.

www.texasasafederation.com


----------



## springy shooter (May 24, 2005)

AMEN Mike! Very well said!


----------



## tmorelli (Jul 31, 2005)

springy shooter said:


> AMEN Mike! Very well said!


Ditto.

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2


----------



## Okie101 (Nov 1, 2009)

springy shooter said:


> AMEN Mike! Very well said!


Tony beat me to it...

Ditto to Tony's ditto...


----------



## Tallcatt (Jul 27, 2003)

springy shooter said:


> I have shot enough of the Texas State qualifiers to agree with Mike....I would say their State qualifiers are second to none! Mike and Tracy do an exceptional job along with their support staff to put on, if not the best, but some of the best State Qualifiers there are! Well worth the time to shoot!


Thank You Karl. We have missed you this year. We hope to see you soon.


----------



## springy shooter (May 24, 2005)

Thanks Mike, I'm still trying to figure out a way to get a qualifier in down your way..............may just have to pay the piper for a life mmebership and come play at Abilene......................lol...................it should be a great shoot!


----------



## edgerat (Dec 14, 2011)

tmorelli said:


> sure, if you set your sight off by 10 yards, the difference will be magnified. Only I set my sight off by 10 yards.
> 
> I did this about a year ago.
> 
> ...


yup


----------



## cenochs (May 2, 2007)

Tallcatt said:


> Thats a great question and it puzzles us as well. Here are some conclusions:
> 
> 1. A lot of our state level shooters seem to be intimidated or just do not care about attending a Pro/Am. We are working diligently to enlighten them that its just like a state level event only bigger.
> 
> ...


I would love to have a state federation in KY like you have but every club is IBO and the closest thing to me like a federation is around Lexington the CKAA central Kentucky archery association. Good job to you guys keep it up here are the numbers do far

FL 1244

Ga 1447

LA 1205

KY 1504

TX *1099

Total = 6499
Avg = 1300

Through 5 shoots in 2012 

Total= 6118
Avg = 1224


----------



## jmann28 (Nov 22, 2010)

They raised the limit for one reason, to boost attendance. The fact is most guys that shoot 3d don't have a setup for ibo, and a setup for Asa. By raising the fps by 10, they increased the pool of shooters to draw from without them having to make changes or buy a second bow. Not everyone can afford two.. Also, the bows are faster now in general, and to get below the fps limit guys are choosing heavier/fatter arrows instead of dropping poundage. These heavier logs are chewing up targets more quickly. That obviously gets expensive replacing targets at a faster rate.

Asa, ibo, they're businesses plain and simple. It's all about $$$


----------



## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

I shot the first Asa shoots at 289fps with xxx arrows because that was all I could get. I then got some x cutters and now I am at 295fps at a lower poundage. I shoot the same scores as before and to me it doesn't really matter because you either guess every target correctly or you don't win.


----------

