# Is a Coach worth it ?



## Fury90flier (Jun 27, 2012)

dua lam pa said:


> Hopefully we can get some good input from shooters and coaches of variouse levels. This is a thread that can be benificial to the entire community and will hopefully pull some people out of the wood work.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



well said.

Absolutely a coach is worth it...for me.
Absolutely a coach is worth it...for most people I see shooting.

Much of what I hear though is "I know what I'm doing". A perfect attitude to not progress in skill. Pride just gets in the way.
Or heard this "if you haven't won state/national you can't help me? Seems to be an attitude that more and more young people are having. There is another thread on this topic about "how does my child get recognized" that this can be discussed.


Trying to find a coach that is a good match can be difficult and if we put a check list up first, it will be nect to impossible. I think of it like when wanting to get married. So many people have their "ideal" mate listed on a pice of paper...every person they meet is subject to this scrutinized list which very few will ever match. What happens is a bunch of crap relationships.

I was told at a young age to listen to everyone no matter their credentials...even the beginner may have some sage advice. 

just because someone has won a national event doesn't mean they can coach.


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## huteson2us2 (Jun 22, 2005)

I agree to a point. Archers that have won national titles do know what we need to become great shooters but some have trouble teaching what they know.Years ago, I learned alot from Dean Pridgen, Jack Cramer and Frank Pearson. Terry Ragsdale was a quiet introverted guy, but once you got to know him he would open up.

Now the NAA coaches that I have met are like most school teachers. They can only teach what comes out of a book and are only good at teaching kids. My experience with them has been less than desirable. They know very little about equipment and can only teach the form that comes out of the NAA handbook. I shot a tournament with a level 3 coach and was watching his arrow fall off his blade every other time he drew his bow back. When I asked him why he was having trouble, he replied that arrows always fall off blades even though I was not having any problems. He quit after missing the whole bale several times. Before paying a coach, ask him something simple like how do you use a drawboard to synch cams. If he doesn't know what a drawboard, synch, or cams means, then he might not be good coach material.


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## Pete53 (Dec 5, 2011)

ya i have a coaching certificate but i help people for free,i like to see people to shoot better and be happy.i do get upset with some coaches who do it for money when they don`t even shoot well themselves and the young people i see they have coached don`t preform well.but there are some coaches that are great but not all are worth the money.yes i have helped some to win state awards,but my favorite was when a handicap boy just won a small award, and came up and thanked me ,that was enough reward for me above and beyound even another youngman i coached who shot a 300 60x in state competition.so good luck finding a good coach,Pete53


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## Fury90flier (Jun 27, 2012)

huteson2us2 said:


> I agree to a point. Archers that have won national titles do know what we need to become great shooters but some have trouble teaching what they know.Years ago, I learned alot from Dean Pridgen, Jack Cramer and Frank Pearson. Terry Ragsdale was a quiet introverted guy, but once you got to know him he would open up.
> 
> Now the NAA coaches that I have met are like most school teachers. They can only teach what comes out of a book and are only good at teaching kids. My experience with them has been less than desirable. They know very little about equipment and can only teach the form that comes out of the NAA handbook. I shot a tournament with a level 3 coach and was watching his arrow fall off his blade every other time he drew his bow back. When I asked him why he was having trouble, he replied that arrows always fall off blades even though I was not having any problems. He quit after missing the whole bale several times. *Before paying a coach, ask him something simple like how do you use a drawboard to synch cams. If he doesn't know what a drawboard, synch, or cams means, then he might not be good coach material. *


this is what I'm getting at.

Why do you care if a coach can setup your bow. He's not their for that, he's there to help YOU. If you want to know about bowsmithing, speak to a bow mechanic. It's nice to have a coach that can also work on your equipment but that often doesn't happen in sports.

I don't use a drawboard- I watch what's happening when the shooter is actually shooting and adjust as necessary. Having a draw board is great but if you can't see what's going on wile shooting you won't be doing the student much good.


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## aread (Dec 25, 2009)

At the end of indoor season last year, I took a look at my shooting. What I saw wasn't pretty. As much time, effort and money as I put into this sport trying to do it alone, well to put it mildly, I SUCKED at archery. And with everything I tried, I was getting worse. Spent the money and spent a weekend with a great coach along with weekly follow up online. Not just a coach but someone who is as good an archer as everyone who is coaching and most of the guys shooting in the pro division. 

I know it shouldn't matter if a coach can shoot or not, but for me, it does. It lends a lot of weight to his comments when he can nock it up and bury on in the middle of the X to demonstrate a point.

The good news is that my shooting is improving rapidly. I have a looooonnnngggg way to go, but I see steady progress. It's a lot more fun again.

So to answer your question, yes, a coach is worth it to me. If you are in a similar situation as me, contact Blue X here on AT. He's one of the great guys I've met in archery.

I agree with the comment above about the NAA coaches. However, I've met a few who have gone beyond the book and are very good coaches. But generally not for the level of the archers in this forum.

Allen


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

You hit it!

Cheapest people I know are archers. Try to talk down dealers and other shooters alike, bxtch over practice fees, cry like babies over one lost arrow. I "launch" a arrow at a event and it doesn't hit where I can see it, it'll stay where it is. Lost one the other day in my yard. Should have been "right there." Got the lawn mower out and chopped that sucker into so many pieces. No worries over a good arrow hiding where I can find it. 

A bit hard headed? With some you'd be better off talking to a concrete wall. But then, a good coach won't tolerate such. You will or you hit the road. Why? Because they have students that want to learn.

A problem issue fixed for $50 is cheap. Benefit seen and money becomes secondary...if you have it. And people do save up money to go to a coach. And does going to coach stop? No, not for some. Some of the best go for just a "check up." X to me; "I go to Terry to have him take me apart and put me back together."

When getting up in the $1000 range, a "line" comes. How good do you want to be enters the picture, a cost refection of returns. Drop a $1000 for club events? Some might. Drop a $1000 to go on a higher level? You have want something beyond the next person. To me, a podium finish at a National event. 

Good communication, priceless. A coach and want to be better archer should talk first, discuss what is expected, what one wants, where one wants to go. 

I've got off cheaper than du lam pa. When I started with compounds there were few that gave good information, both bow and target shooting. Actually, a hunter gave me the best information to get going. I hit the local circuit, 20 to 25 3Ds in one year and another. I got to know others, discussed this and that, picked up some good stuff. Shot with some that shot on a higher level, Nationals. I still didn't know that archery was bigger than just a State event. And then I shot with a coach I didn't know was a coach. Hey, coaches are human, not the Lion Tamers I heard they could be or the ones on ego trips LSD couldn't send you on. 

I haven't seen a step by step procedure by a coach, whether introductorily, mid level, or higher up. Okay, where they start and go on. Mine took in form and bow fit. That I'm so bashful, shy and laid back, both didn't worry about me being nervous


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## P&y only (Feb 26, 2009)

a kid might be able to bench press 500 lbs. but he'll never be a top notch football player without a good coach! Same principle in almost any sport. coaching is the most important part


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## D.B.Cooper (Feb 7, 2013)

*My* coach is worth it for *me*. I pay about $50/hr for one-on-one sessions with some video analysis. She's also happy to answer email questions and look at video I shoot myself in between sessions. I don't work with her on a set schedule, but try to get out for an hour or two every couple months for checkups. I shoot better scores than she does at this point, and that doesn't matter a lick to me. I pay for her experience and ability to notice subtle things about my shooting. Having a coach who can pound 60 X's would be great, but it's not critical for me.

My time is valuable. I'll gladly pay someone who can, in a 1-hr lesson, save me hours of flailing around on my own trying to figure out what's wrong.


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## Stash (Jun 1, 2002)

A personal opinion, and I know I'm a minority here, but for me the whole point of being in an individual sport such as archery is to go it alone. Having someone coach me takes away from my own accomplishments (or failures). That's not to say I don't read, observe, ask questions and pick the brains of those with information I might need, but I like to learn on my own. Having someone stand behind me while I shoot just takes away from the enjoyment. I might have had a better career with the right coach behind me, but I probably would have given the sport up.

I got half decent at golf a few years back, decided I wasn't ever going to get better, took some lessons. No fun at all - I felt I was trying to please the coach more than I was trying to enjoy my game.

This is not in reference to beginner instruction, by the way. Heartily recommend learning the basics from a qualified instructor.

Again, just my own view, not trying to promote an agenda.


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## Strodav (Apr 25, 2012)

Yes, unless you've got to the point you can self coach. I certainly am not there yet.


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

Stash said:


> A personal opinion, and I know I'm a minority here, but for me the whole point of being in an individual sport such as archery is to go it alone. Having someone coach me takes away from my own accomplishments (or failures). That's not to say I don't read, observe, ask questions and pick the brains of those with information I might need, but I like to learn on my own. Having someone stand behind me while I shoot just takes away from the enjoyment. I might have had a better career with the right coach behind me, but I probably would have given the sport up.
> 
> *I got half decent at golf a few years back, decided I wasn't ever going to get better, took some lessons. No fun at all - I felt I was trying to please the coach more than I was trying to enjoy my game.*
> This is not in reference to beginner instruction, by the way. Heartily recommend learning the basics from a qualified instructor.
> ...


That in bold, using you a bit. Accepting change is tough. Think of a archery coach as a Sculptor, molding you into a piece of art. We don't go to a coach to have fun. We go for correction, build upon the good we have, excel beyond what we are. The fun comes after and shooting better, placing well and winning is the fun part. And again, communication needs be there.


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## Mahly (Dec 18, 2002)

Dealing with my own "hard headedness" I must say that I think a proper coach is practically VITAL to improving to a truly advanced level. 
I have been a coach/instructor of MANY things in life, yet for decades I never sought out an archery coach. I spent YEARS doing everything wrong, but I learned. I learned simple stuff like I'm really not a 33" draw (yes, I said I did everything wrong...1 was shooting a 33" draw), beginner-intermediate stuff like shooting a surprise release, and even now, learning the better aspects of different firing engines for a hinge (Thanx Padgett).
But now I really do see, that you really DON'T see what a coach sees. Even if you video yourself, you will "justify" reasons for doing it "wrong". Sometimes doing it wrong just works better for you....but thats rare.

Honestly, it NEVER was about the $$$. Archery is one of the cheapest hobbies I have taken up (You want expensive hobbies....try motorsport!). The problem, and some have alluded to, is finding the RIGHT coach. (Hell, I'm having trouble finding ANY coach for an intermediate-advanced shooter). Finding a coach that can use the knowledge you already have to your advantage to me is important....but also one that will say "That just is NOT working for you, you have to try something new".

Having a 60x shooting coach can't hurt. But I am much more interested at what his/her STUDENTS shoot...and what they shot before coaching.
I have seen (in other sports) coaches who were AWESOME at what they do, but horrible at showing someone else how to get there.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

Mahly said:


> Dealing with my own "hard headedness" I must say that I think a proper coach is practically VITAL to improving to a truly advanced level.
> I have been a coach/instructor of MANY things in life, yet for decades I never sought out an archery coach. I spent YEARS doing everything wrong, but I learned. I learned simple stuff like I'm really not a 33" draw (yes, I said I did everything wrong...1 was shooting a 33" draw), beginner-intermediate stuff like shooting a surprise release, and even now, learning the better aspects of different firing engines for a hinge (Thanx Padgett).
> But now I really do see, that you really DON'T see what a coach sees. Even if you video yourself, you will "justify" reasons for doing it "wrong". Sometimes doing it wrong just works better for you....but thats rare.
> 
> ...



"Having a 60x shooting coach can't hurt. But I am much more interested at what his/her STUDENTS shoot...and what they shot before coaching.
I have seen (in other sports) coaches who were AWESOME at what they do, but horrible at showing someone else how to get there."

The TRUE measure of a coach.


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## carlosii (Feb 25, 2007)

Just a couple observations.

We had a basketball coach here at our community college who won more than one NJCAA championships and sent several players to the NBA. (Bob McAdoo and Ricky Green were a couple.) He was maybe 5 foot 6 math teacher who, I suspect, never played basketball off the playground. You don't have to be a great athlete to be a great coach. You have to be a great teacher.

Spotting talent, such as a good coach, can require some thinking and observation. For example, you go into a barber shop that has two barbers. Which one do you want cutting your hair, the one with the great haircut or the one with the lousy haircut?


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## reylamb (Feb 5, 2003)

huteson2us2 said:


> I agree to a point. Archers that have won national titles do know what we need to become great shooters but some have trouble teaching what they know.Years ago, I learned alot from Dean Pridgen, Jack Cramer and Frank Pearson. Terry Ragsdale was a quiet introverted guy, but once you got to know him he would open up.
> 
> Now the NAA coaches that I have met are like most school teachers. They can only teach what comes out of a book and are only good at teaching kids. My experience with them has been less than desirable. They know very little about equipment and can only teach the form that comes out of the NAA handbook. I shot a tournament with a level 3 coach and was watching his arrow fall off his blade every other time he drew his bow back. When I asked him why he was having trouble, he replied that arrows always fall off blades even though I was not having any problems. He quit after missing the whole bale several times. Before paying a coach, ask him something simple like how do you use a drawboard to synch cams. If he doesn't know what a drawboard, synch, or cams means, then he might not be good coach material.


A coach is there to coach, instruct, train, etc.....which has nothing to do with tuning a bow. Do you think PGA tour pros take their clubs to their coaches and ask them their opinion if the club should be ground donw, some, take some of the bounce off the irons, adjust the lie of the driver, etc, etc, etc? No. A coach is there to coach.



Mahly said:


> Dealing with my own "hard headedness" I must say that I think a proper coach is practically VITAL to improving to a truly advanced level.
> I have been a coach/instructor of MANY things in life, yet for decades I never sought out an archery coach. I spent YEARS doing everything wrong, but I learned. I learned simple stuff like I'm really not a 33" draw (yes, I said I did everything wrong...1 was shooting a 33" draw), beginner-intermediate stuff like shooting a surprise release, and even now, learning the better aspects of different firing engines for a hinge (Thanx Padgett).
> But now I really do see, that you really DON'T see what a coach sees. Even if you video yourself, you will "justify" reasons for doing it "wrong". Sometimes doing it wrong just works better for you....but thats rare.
> 
> ...


Butch Harmon....Rick Smith....etc, etc, etc....most of the top golf coaches were not successful PGA tour pros, and many never even made it on the tour. But they know how to teach.



carlosii said:


> Just a couple observations.
> 
> We had a basketball coach here at our community college who won more than one NJCAA championships and sent several players to the NBA. (Bob McAdoo and Ricky Green were a couple.) He was maybe 5 foot 6 math teacher who, I suspect, never played basketball off the playground. You don't have to be a great athlete to be a great coach. You have to be a great teacher.
> 
> Spotting talent, such as a good coach, can require some thinking and observation. For example, you go into a barber shop that has two barbers. Which one do you want cutting your hair, the one with the great haircut or the one with the lousy haircut?


Coach K at Duke. Never a great player, but his record speaks for itself.
Going in the way back machine, Red Auerbauch....never a great player either.
Nick Saban? Bill Bellichick? Bill Parcells? Never great players.

Great players don't necessarily make great coaches, and great coaches weren't necessarily great players.

At the end of the day, an individual will get out of coaching exactly what they decide to put into it. I know a guy that spent thousands going to Butch Harmon for his golf swing....and after a few months was no better than before he went to see Butch. Why? He didn't put in what he needed to in order to improve. Whether it was listening to instruction or working on the changes I don't know, I just know he didn't put in what was necessary somewhere along the way to improve.


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

reylamb said:


> A coach is there to coach, instruct, train, etc.....which has nothing to do with tuning a bow. Do you think PGA tour pros take their clubs to their coaches and ask them their opinion if the club should be ground donw, some, take some of the bounce off the irons, adjust the lie of the driver, etc, etc, etc? No.  A coach is there to coach.
> .


You are on a roll today 

True story. Kid (anybody younger than me) went to blaming his bow when the coach asked what wasn't sinking in. Man, was that the wrong thing to say. Coach ripped the kid pretty good, not quite to tears, but close. Hey, took a bit for the kid to regroup, but manned up. No changes to the bow and he was flat shooting. I penned a piece a few years back, Bow Tuning is Secondary, stuck a short version in Bow Tuning Forum here on AT. Lord, you'd thought I set fire to the Vatican. And bowing tuning is secondary. You can't shoot, a Super Tuned bow won't help, whatever a Super Tuned bow is. Sure, a bow has to be tuned to some degree, but even a badly tuned bows will shoot accurately if the shooter is up to it. And the story of Terry Ragsdale has probably been used...over used too much, about his paper tearing bow that won Vegas. Coach Bernie Pellerite once penned bowing tuning is irrelevant. Bet that went over well....or would have been "chewed on" good on AT. Same distance used and bow can be dialed in to hit accurately at that distance. The bow repeats and all is needed is for the shooter to repeat.

Different, but the same, this person had arrow problems, overly weak. Arrow was porpoising down range badly, but at 20 yards that arrow would go in the same hole time after time. Change the distance and the arrow wouldn't hit where it should, but kept going in the same hole. Why? Because the bow was repeating, the arrow was flexing the same and the shooter was repeating...


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## bigHUN (Feb 5, 2006)

I had to learn all by myself and cost me many tausend's of dollars in the past ten years buying-trying-buying an other one, taking my bows apart and dressing them with custom parts, arrows, stabilizers and so on.....mental game, read tons and try the instructions in one or the other way.....
My club is a hunting club with about 4-450 members, most newer members doing target lately, but at my time I started - there were nobody to learn the "tricks" with rings..... all was my hard work to get me to a level.
In the past several years the club started "mass producing" coaches, I had to public my very rootless comment here at AT earlier this year about this business trend and now most of the coaches North of the border just avoiding me  what is again not a bad thing. BTW I saw several of them started showing up on the recent tournaments in person...
Teaching from books....yes, can work with starters, and only up to a very starting levels....
but once me have several provincial medals I have nowhere else to go for coaching but chase the pro's if someone would take my 120 bucks/hour for consultation....
Nobody else comes to my mind from a decent list of coaches here locally but Dietmar T or Andrew F, whom I can trust for personal experience...but that trust must work both ways, why would he throw he's valuable time for someone who may never grow at least to he's level? 
Now...same as with best musicians, no one can dance, we can not expect the best shooters can easily share the knowledge...but me not easy going as well...
so, the effort must be two sided, I want the knowledge he have so I need to figure how to gain it.....right? at he's free time of course. Because these big names are not sitting there a whole day and waiting for people with questions....so, sorry but tight schedules on both end...
On the other side couple days ago I came up with an article at OAA site they will host advanced archery instructor courses, so I thought , hm, why not I can shoot well let me do a course for myself....when I saw the prerequisites and what they want to talk about....cmon, Im not gonna waste my time with that #$Q, and pay a high ticket for it....
So, at this moment I am very divided, just saying: I am good, keep working hard and the time will show....at the tournaments there are very good folks and always learn a trick here and there....


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