# Bow tuning is secondary.



## bagel77 (Feb 1, 2008)

lol...okay. point taken


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## STUDENT-ARCHER (Jun 26, 2009)

I have alluded to the same here many times in response to the super tuner threads...you'd figure with a million dollars on the line every year all the pro's would be lined up to have their bows super tuned by these pro tuners...I have also asked who's score has dramatically jumped for an indoor round after said tuning...never a response.
When shooting at 20 yards the arrow will react the same with every shot...unless you cause it to do differently(snatch, flinch, jerk, drop bow arm...). Now if you take that untuned bow outside you may have some serious center shot issues that will steal points, but the arrows keep landing right where YOU POINTED THEM.


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## ironhorse89 (Feb 22, 2009)

Thats great for shooting at a target at a fixed distance. So if the deer is at 20 yds, then youre good to go but what if he is at 16 or 23 or 28? You see the ones hanging in the garage that worked out but how many ran off and died and were never found? I know this next statement will cause a few ruffled feathers but in my opinion the reason why so many people shoot expandable broadheads is because it compensates for a poorly tuned bow. Ive never talked to anyone that shoots expandable broadheads that say they use them because they hit harder or get more penetration, they say they shoot them because they fly like fieldpoints. Even with my limited tuning ability my Muzzy's fly as consistent as any fieldpoint. I can tell you from my own experience that after reading alot on here and on the internet about tuning my own equipment, Im shooting 100% better than last year. My confidence level in my equipment and my shooting skill is higher than its ever been before. I am by no means a supertuner. I still have ALOT to learn but Im heading in the right direction. I am also a firm believer in practicing all the time and trying to perfect your form as this is just as important as having a well tuned bow. The mistake I used to make every year is that I would practice all Spring and Summer and right up to when the season started and then I would only take my bow out when it was time to hunt. Thats a mistake. Take it out and shoot it often, even if you only shoot 3 or 4 shots. That helps with your form and it gets you used to shooting in cooler weather with some heavier clothes on. Ive shot deer in the past that I couldnt find, Im sure everyone that bow hunts has. Even if its only a doe, I have enough respect for that animal that Im willing to go that extra mile to assure a clean, quick and as humane a kill as I can. Thanks for reading.


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## jim p (Oct 29, 2003)

A couple of months ago I had a bow that was out of spec's. It would not shoot consistently. I shoot back tension so I all ways pay attention to where the bow is aimed when the shot breaks. The bow was only shooting a 5" group at 20 yards. I built some strings a put it in spec and it now shoots where it is aimed.

I am thinking that some bows will shoot well when out of spec but this bow just would not shoot until I got it in spec.


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## BowKil (Mar 19, 2005)

Tuned bow vs Un-tuned bow........... I'll take the tuned bow every time.....:wink:


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## Nitroboy (Jan 15, 2006)

jim p said:


> I am thinking that some bows will shoot well when out of spec but this bow just would not shoot until I got it in spec.


Ditto, I have played around with many bows in my few years of archery and have found the same, some bows will shoot ok even being way out of spec and tune, other bows won't shoot a 12" group at 20yds when just slightly out of spec and tune. I had a old PSE Polaris when I got it it was used and about 5-6 years old, had factory string and cables a stick on arrowrest, I shot nearly lights out with that old bow, got some new strings and cables and a TM hunter rest and found out the bow was 3/4" out on AtA and the timing was so far off it didn't even have a wall. After the new stuff it didn't really even shoot any better,lol It was dead-on specs and had the timeing spot-on but my shooting didn't get any better, could have been me, lol


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

For those didn't grasp the message; So many people drive theirselves nuts trying to tune their bow to perfection. Bows don't need tuned to perfection. They need tuned to hit well enough to give confidence. These people worry and feret to no end and it's plain not necessary. Because of accuracy problems and/or performance they want to solely blame the bow. Some won't hunt, some won't compete in informal archery events and some eventually quit archery. By and large a lot of bow shooters could save theirselves a ton of grief with instruction from a good archer or coach...

I get to watch archers shoot. Two most common errors; Improper grip and the bow's draw length set too long. I know of than a couple bow shooters who stand maybe 5'6" or 5'7" who have 30" draw lengths. Tell them they are wrong and they get completely bent out of shape.

As ironhorse pointed out, there is a difference between field points/mechanical broadheads and fixed broadheads, but then I wasn't referring to hunting. He also included something of failed hits/wounding deer. I don't buy this at all for I tried to point out. If anything more deer are wounded buy those who think they can drop a deer with any kind of a hit (I have friends that don't deserve to be hunting), those who have suffer buck fever (I know people who have shot and can't remember if they even seen their pins), those who take iffy shots, and as he implied, by those who don't practice or practice enough to know their limitations or their archery setup's limitations.


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## IBOHunt3D (Jun 6, 2006)

Sonny, I hear what you are saying and totally agree. I think a bow shoots best when its "to spec" but other than that, the super tuning may take it a bit too far. I too have seen bows that by most people's standards would be rediculously out of tune, shoot amazing scores. But then again, I have seen super tuned bows shoot the same scores as well. 

Bottom line...Even with all the technology, new materials, cams, and what not, that have been used to make the most modern, latest and greatest bows, its still the shooter behind them that makes the score. Granted the bow can help, but its ultimately the shooter.

CG


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## ironhorse89 (Feb 22, 2009)

I havent ever and wont ever send my bow off to be "Supertuned". God bless everyone that does. My bows are all set-up close enough to being in spec (as close as I can get them), that if I have any issues with my shooting, I know that 99.9% of the time, its me. That saves me alot of time not wondering if there is something wrong with my equipment and I can spend more time fixing the real issue, me.


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## sawdust2 (Jan 7, 2009)

*Just Whats So Irritating About Super Tuning?*

To everyone that gets upset about Super Tuning:

1. Why in the world should you care if someone wants to Super Tune their equipment?

2.Why do you come up with one of a kind examples of bad setups doing well? This comes under heading "blind hogs and acorns". Is this some kind of justification for not tuning your equipment.

Maybe we should all just loosen the rest, break a strand or two and a few other similar things and shoot for third place. But then again that might be considered Super Tuning if we did it on purpose.

Wow.

I'll take tuned, super or otherwise, over untuned every time.

Just a thought.

sawdust2


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## Spotshooter2 (Oct 23, 2003)

I am with Sawdust on this one.


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

I see people still don't get the picture. You don't have to have a perfectly tuned bow to get the job done. So what if there's some minor glitch? If the bow is shooting good groups, hitting where you intend, then shoot the thing and don't worry your head off. 

If someone wants to have their bow super tuned, have at it. But remember one thing, some one having their bow super tuned and a bow tuned to them, by them are two different things. AND, if I have read correctly, super tuning is more of getting the greatest speed from the bow. I'd rather have accuracy.

I also re-read some replies. Evidently, some don't know what a 900 round is. Sometimes called Outdoor Target, the distances are 60, 50 and 40 yards and 30 arrows at each distance, 60 yards first, then 50 and you finish the match at 40 yards.

Another item I left out. Some worry to death over switching over, having to go through all that "tuning" again. I know more than a few that switch arrows, from thin to thick or vice versa, and only change their sight setting. They don't tune, they shoot while you're tuning....

This from a world renouned archery coach; Bernie Pellerite
_Tuning can only be relevant if you have consistent form and if you have consistent form, tuning becomes irrelevant! _

Bernie again; _Follow through is that after the arrow is gone and we can no longer effect it's flight._

Another world renouned archery coach; Terry Wunderle
_Over 90% of bad shots by a archer can be contributed to the bow arm. Make sure it goes through the shot and fininshed in the same place every time._

Terry & Bernie again; _Give yourself a break. Allow 15 or so seconds between shots. This restores circulation, strength. _


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## ats (Jul 20, 2007)

SonnyThomas said:


> For those didn't grasp the message; So many people drive theirselves nuts trying to tune their bow to perfection. Bows don't need tuned to perfection.




Bows don't need to be tuned to perfection to make field points hit the same point time after time. As long as whatever is wrong is consistently wrong. 

However, to shoot fixed blade heads, especially large cutting diameter, your bow needs to be tuned to perfection. End of story.


I just skimmed over all of your points in your original post, but at first glance it looks like every single one of them would cause broadhead flight issues.


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## ats (Jul 20, 2007)

SonnyThomas said:


> As ironhorse pointed out, there is a difference between field points/mechanical broadheads and fixed broadheads, but then I wasn't referring to hunting.



I didn't see this before I posted


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## Nitroboy (Jan 15, 2006)

I know what your saying Sonny, Heres what I do when I get a new bow in

1. Mount all my accessories, eyeballing rest and a educated guess on the sights.
2. Install loop, peep, silencers or anything else I want to.
3. Step out shop door with 3 FP tipped arrows, Pop a shot at 10yds and then sight in at 20yds and walkback tune to 40yds.
4. Put BH on one arrow, spin check it, and BH tune til FP and BH hit same POI.
5. Done

After that 15-20 minute session I rest 20-30 min and then sight bow in to how ever many pins I have and I am good to, My bows shoot just as good as anybody elses and I have total confidence in them,

LOL! For crying out loud!, Sunday after church I built me a new set of strings for my PSE BM XS in Blue/Black with Blue serving, got done at 5:30pm so it was dark, Monday after work did my little 5 step procedure and Today @ 4:49pm shot a doe @ 22yds and she ran 3yds fell and expired! Hows that for SUPER TUNED!!! LOL!


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## fletched (May 10, 2006)

Hello Sonny,

My take is that a bow will only shoot as good as the person behind it. The better you become, the better it can be tuned. A perfectly tuned bow won't do the job if the shooter isn't consistent in their form.

Some people spend more time tuning than shooting and wonder why they suck.


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## STUDENT-ARCHER (Jun 26, 2009)

*Tuned vs Not*



sawdust2 said:


> To everyone that gets upset about Super Tuning:
> 
> 1. Why in the world should you care if someone wants to Super Tune their equipment?
> 
> ...


Ok so you're saying if we put 1 super tuned bow in a hooter shooter, and 1 untuned bow in a Hooter Shooter that The tuned bow will shoot a better score than the untuned bow? Please answer...


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

Nitroboy said:


> LOL! For crying out loud!, Sunday after church I built me a new set of strings for my PSE BM XS in Blue/Black with Blue serving, got done at 5:30pm so it was dark, Monday after work did my little 5 step procedure and Today @ 4:49pm shot a doe @ 22yds and she ran 3yds fell and expired! Hows that for SUPER TUNED!!! LOL!


Big time Congrats! I like the fact that you didn't beat yourself to death "tuning" to get the job done. Sure is fun shooting your bow than worrying about a "bullet hole," isn't it?


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## BarneySlayer (Feb 28, 2009)

It would seem that we're not disagreeing about very much.

I think the point is, while it's nice to have the basics covered (are any cams timed that need it, is the draw length good, is the rest/nock position allowing the arrows to come off the arrow fairly straight) but don't freak out about little details, particularly if you aren't noticing a problem in shooting the thing, and unless you can verify the problem (i.e. shots hit left at 40 yards but dead center at 20), it's better to concentrate on how we're shooting. if it's working for you, use it.

Would that be fair?

I just put my cables/strings back on one of my bows, after finding that that they were almost an inch too long. I doubt it's in spec. I think I'm going to get a new set, because I want it in spec, but if I put it back together, at least I can blow holes in old halloween pumpkins


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## Harperman (Sep 3, 2006)

Here's something......Try convincing some Archers that they dont need a perfect bullet hole through paper....I've seen folks shoot through paper for an hour, trying to get a bullet hole....Thing is, some bows wont shoot a bullet hole, and a right handed archer will find that at 6 feet, a little slight side-ways tear will be what they want, once they have walkback tuned, and creep tuned....SonnyThomas, I'm picking up what Your laying down...I've seen guys lose confidence in Their bow, leading to lost confidence in their shooting, leading to lower scores, becuase they felt that the bow wasnt tuned perfectly...Some of the best Spot shooters in this area dont paper tune, they just set the bow up, play with arrow length/tip weight, and get the bow shooting....Then decide if the shot that went bad was themselves, or the bow...If they have a bad end, and KNOW that the shots were good , they will make adjustment from there...if I'm not mistaken, Terry Ragsdale was kinda famous ,( or at least well known) for not getting overly concerned with tuning a bow...I was told that Terry would tune the bow to the arrow sometimes, or vice versa, and just make sight adjustments until the arrows were stacking up in the target at the distance that he was shooting...Could be Archery Legends, but who knows for sure??...As for the Pro shooters, I''m pretty sure that They tune Their own bows....I mean, seriously, Who is shooting Their bows, them or the Tuner?...These Pro's know EXACTLY "HOW" they want Their bows to shoot..And they tweek/tune accordingly....Good Thread.....Harperman


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## Nitroboy (Jan 15, 2006)

SonnyThomas said:


> Big time Congrats! I like the fact that you didn't beat yourself to death "tuning" to get the job done. Sure is fun shooting your bow than worrying about a "bullet hole," isn't it?


Darn right!! Thanks also, Yeah I like working on bows but I like shooting one more, If a customer of mine comes in wanting new strings and cables, I get them put them on the bow make sure everything is to spec or as close as I can get it, timed or cam rotated right and then we go outside and shoot, we get the bow shooting FP and BH the same doing my 5 step and being that i mainly work on hunting bows that is about as good as anyone wants around here, There isn't another shop close to me that will do what I do, every shop I have been into pops a shot through paper and says here ya go ready to hunt, and then they come to me wondering why there bow shots BH 6" low and the right, lol! They say " But it shot a bullet hole through paper " lol! cracks me up!


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## sawdust2 (Jan 7, 2009)

*Sounds Like Super Tuning*

Only you're not using paper. You seem to be proud of the fact that you have the customers bow shooting as well as it can. What is super tuning?

sawdust2


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

.


Harperman said:


> slightly sideways


Yes. The almighty "bullet hole" is somewhat misleading. It use to be the writers told of having a slightly high and slight right or left tear to make the arrow correct itself the same way. This has been lost. Those of us that do tune find that a bow performing at it's best does not or does not always shoot bullet holes.



sawdust2 said:


> What is super tuning?
> sawdust2


From what I have read most super tuning is getting the most speed out of the bow. I've heard strings been changed (lesser weight) and less center serving, rotating the cam (s), using a spefic arrow setup and a few other things that escape me at the moment. The thing is, most of the bows I've read about were shipped to (fill in blank). The bow one place and the owner sitting to home?
My grip is different, your grip is different, someone may not know or refusing to accept the proper grip method > "Super Tuning goes right out the window."
Cost of these Super Tune? I don't know, but if the bow needs tuned is the owner willing to wait for their bow and shell out a few more coins for shipping and another Super Tune?
How many people can really take advantage of a Super Tune? Not many would be my guess. Especially so if that person is new to archery.
As for the speed thing, the market is being swamped with fast bows. Guess what? Of a couple shop owners, most of the people that buy these super fast bows really can't shoot them. Told to me; "Sure, they can kill a deer, but as for consistent accuracy, forget it."
I believe as more and more people shoot these fast bows people will learn and pass on information.


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## fletched (May 10, 2006)

Lets not loose track. There is a balance between the shooter and the bow. 

FORM OVER FUNCTION.
If a shooter's form is bad but consistent, that shooter can get some good results. That's why someone with a draw length 2" long can shoot sometimes shoot good. If a bow is tuned or untuned, it is capable of repeating itself thus giving satisfactory results.

If a shooter's form is good but not conisitent, that shooter won't get good results. 

The most important part to shooting is being consistent. If the bow isn't well tuned and the draw length is too long, the shooter still can get some good results because they can repeat themself.

If a shooter has good shooting form and is consistent, they will more likely get better results. Shooting proper form allows them to use the bow more effectively and efficiently. It will involve less muscle activity which makes them more consistent exspecially after shooting for a long period of time. 

This is where a bow that is properly tuned comes in to play. Not only does the bow need tuned but the arrows need tuned as well, exspecially carbon arrows. A properly tuned bow will make the bow more forgiving. It will also allow the bow to shoot better groups. It will most likely give good results through the paper. 

If the bows and arrows are properly tuned and the shooter is using good consistent form, the results will be better than any other way. 

But there is a line that is easily crossed and crossed by many. You bow will only perform as good as the one shooting it. You can't magically tune your bow to make up for bad shooting. It requires the archer and the bow to work as one. One part is dependent on the other. A shooter must spend time on their form and they must spend time on shooting groups. The better the shooter becomes, the better their bow needs to be tuned. 

Super tuning means that the bow is shooting at it's best, consistency and performance wise. If a shooter can shoot at the level of this tune, then they will notice great results. If the shooter sucks, they won't benefit from it very much.

The bow and archer must work as one complete system.


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## konrad (Mar 29, 2009)

Beware the guy with one gun...or bow, who knows his equipment and where the projectile will go.

Excellent post!


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## Ogredude43 (Jun 11, 2006)

*Bow tuning to the archer*

Isn't the whole scope of this to tune the bow to the archer? How can someone who never sees the archer shoot the bow "SUPERTUNE" the bow? Isn't the main goal to get the most forgiving bow/arrow setup and tune to the archer to some extent? In the bow safety course they refer to a matched and tuned setup which if I understand it includes the bow, arrows and the archer.


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## Nitroboy (Jan 15, 2006)

*fletched* I here you bro, but just about 95% of everybody I do work for DO NOT shoot like they should or have even decent form, Most are not hardcore archery as I and they pick there bow up a month before season and come to me to make sure everything looks good( I tell them the bow is fine but you need some work) and may or may not start shooting alittle, most shoot about 3 or 4 times a week 2 weeks before season starts and after season starts they just quit, so it really doesnt matter how the bow or arrow is tuned cause in no way do you have anything even resembling consistancy to use, it is just about total crap. And that you cannot do anything with, if they are happy with hitting a pie plate at 20yds then I am happy for them


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## Nitroboy (Jan 15, 2006)

Ogredude43 said:


> Isn't the whole scope of this to tune the bow to the archer? How can someone who never sees the archer shoot the bow "SUPERTUNE" the bow? Isn't the main goal to get the most forgiving bow/arrow setup and tune to the archer to some extent? In the bow safety course they refer to a matched and tuned setup which if I understand it includes the bow, arrows and the archer.


True so true, Thats why I do what I do, I let the person shooting the bow do all the shooting and relay info to me til we get the bow,arrow and archer doing its very best together, thats the only way to make the person happy and have confidence in their equipment which is part of the battle. But I am by no means a "super tuner"


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## TMan51 (Jan 25, 2004)

SonnyThomas said:


> .
> The almighty "bullet hole" is somewhat misleading.
> 
> How many people can really take advantage of a Super Tune?


My bows tend to shoot best with a bit of nock high through paper. Or at 20' with a bare shaft.

Super Tune? I'm still wondering what that actually is.

I can bring every bow I own (too many, probably) to within 1/64th of spec, for every variable, (ATA/BH/centershot/timing), in about 5 minutes. Not a one shoots for a hoot at that point. How can someone else top that?

Maybe "super setup" is more appropriate???


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## fletched (May 10, 2006)

Ogredude43 said:


> Isn't the whole scope of this to tune the bow to the archer? How can someone who never sees the archer shoot the bow "SUPERTUNE" the bow? Isn't the main goal to get the most forgiving bow/arrow setup and tune to the archer to some extent? In the bow safety course they refer to a matched and tuned setup which if I understand it includes the bow, arrows and the archer.


Keep this in mind. Most bows that are super tuned will be done on a hooter shooter. Being done on the hs means it is tuned with perfect form. This is a plus to the shooter. When they receive their bow, they can shoot it through paper and adjust their form to match the paper hole that the hs gets. This can guide the archer in the right direction. Also, it puts the bow in a balanced nuetral position that the archer can adjust from to match his form if he chooses not to change his form. 

The hs doesn't lie. If a bow is tuned on it, you can get perfect results. You can also tune arrows to hit the same hole. 

Most people who come in the shop wants their bow tuned. Either you can tune it for them or help them tune it. If their form isn't very good, you can only get it tuned so good. A lot of the time, they won't accept that the bow won't tune to their form. This can make it look like you don't know what you are doing. You can tie up a lot of time trying to help someone tune their bow. After a while, you grab the bow and tune it and give it back to them. What else can you do? Some people don't or can't change so you got to do what is best. I am a lefty and if I am helping another lefty tune their bow and the person doesn't have good form, I will take it and tune it myself. I have good success tuning with my form. But I am human. Even though I got it to shoot good holes for me, it may not be right for the person who owns the bow. My form and his may be a lot different. This is where the hs can come in handy. At least the hs shoots a bow the best way. Having a bow shoot it's best isn't a bad thing. At least half the equation is right instead of both being wrong.

I am not saying that everyone needs their bow tuned on a hs. It will take time and money to do so. But the person who gets their bow super tuned will at least know that their bow is at it's best. They can see if they need to work on their form. 

If someone gets their bow super tuned, it needs to be explained to them what they can expect and what they need to do to get the most out of it.


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## rock monkey (Dec 28, 2002)

so....i send off my bow, let someone else 'tune' my 'simple machine' on another 'simple machine'.

pay my bill

and then have to make myself fit my 'simple machine'?

fantastic idea. :zip:




fletched said:


> Keep this in mind. Most bows that are super tuned will be done on a hooter shooter. Being done on the hs means it is tuned with perfect form. This is a plus to the shooter. When they receive their bow, they can shoot it through paper and adjust their form to match the paper hole that the hs gets. This can guide the archer in the right direction. Also, it puts the bow in a balanced nuetral position that the archer can adjust from to match his form if he chooses not to change his form.
> 
> The hs doesn't lie. If a bow is tuned on it, you can get perfect results. You can also tune arrows to hit the same hole.
> 
> ...


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## BarneySlayer (Feb 28, 2009)

A hooter shooter applies pressure on the grip a certain way. Even if the shooter doesn't grab the handle, even entirely open-handed, the pressure on the grip will likely be different, the geometry of the draw will be different, as will be the force vectors between the bow, the hand, and the arrow during the shot. As a result, there will be a different optimal rest position, regardless of how perfect their form is. So, you can tune it for the machine, which is a good starting point, but I'd certainly not defer to the machine.

Plus, how many places have enough space to do walk back tuning with a hooter shooter? Honest question. Only shop I've been in has the hooter shooter at a fixed distance indoors. It's not difficult to get a bow 'tuned' to hit the same spot at a fixed distance. It can launch the arrow awfully, the same way, and it will look consistent, so long as your'e at the same distance. There is no opportunity to compare 30 and 40 yard groups to 10 or 20 yard groups. There's not enough enough distance to do broadhead tuning. That's not a hooter shooter problem, but rather the environments that I'm just guessing hooter shooters usually occupy. I'm sure there are examples of hooter shoots out on a field range, or in a warehouse that serves as a range where you can get those distances, but I'd bet 50 cents that they are exceptions.

I see the value of the hooter shooter. You can use it to do a controlled draw on the bow and check the cam timing. You can use it to reliably clock the speed, and play around with cam rotation, and even arrow selection, to optimize your speed and/or kinetic energy. If the shooter isn't consistent enough yet to tune their bow by shooting, the hooter shooter is the next best thing, because at least it's a consistent starting point.

But I'd never give up tuning by shooting it myself.


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## fletched (May 10, 2006)

rock monkey said:


> so....i send off my bow, let someone else 'tune' my 'simple machine' on another 'simple machine'.
> 
> pay my bill
> 
> ...


You should strive to shoot your bow with perfect form. A hooter shooter can achieve this where as most archers can't. If you can't produce respectable results with your form, it is good to try to improve it. If you can make changes to your form to get closer to what the hooter shooter does, then most likely you are improving your form. 

Does it make sense to throw your center shot way out to match your torqued grip? I think it would be better to try to change your grip to reduce torque.

What is up with the 'simple machine' thing?

For something being so simple, people sure have a lot of problems and ask a lot of questions.


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## BarneySlayer (Feb 28, 2009)

fletched said:


> You should strive to shoot your bow with perfect form. A hooter shooter can achieve this where as most archers can't. If you can't produce respectable results with your form, it is good to try to improve it. If you can make changes to your form to get closer to what the hooter shooter does, then most likely you are improving your form. .


I don't disagree with any of this. The key to what you're saying is, "If you can't produce respectable results with your form..."

if somebody has bad form, such as actually gripping the bow and torquing it, it will probably not only be 'incorrect', it will also very likely be inconsistent, because good form is when you do as little as possible, because the less you do, the less you can do differently. So, yes, you're right, if somebody has bad form, it's not only a bad idea to tune to match their form, it's probably also very difficult, and not worth trying because their shooting will be so inconsistent that you won't be able to do it.

However, if somebody has good, consistent form, but they just happen to apply pressure on a different part of the handle than the hooter shooter, perhaps because it is, in fact, the most consistent way for them to hold the bow (a hooter shooter doesn't have a human hand, after all) tuning to the hooter shooter, while perhaps a good start, will not be as good as tuning to how they shoot. If they try to hold the bow the same way the hooter shooter holds it, the shooting will be closer to the hooter shooter, but the results may be less consistent. I mean, if we think about basically trying to just push on the bow with the base of the thumb near the wrist, as our best 'bone on bone', that center of pressure, given the given particulars of the geometry of whatever person's hand, will likely differ than what happened with the hooter shooter.

So, you then have a situation where you make a choice. Do you tune the bow to get the best results with the best shooting that the particular human can do, or do you tune it to get the best results with a machine that has perfect form?

Well, I know I don't actually use my bow with a hooter shooter, so while I want to work to make my own shooting form as good as I can, and minimize my own imperfections, I would still choose to shoot the best I can shoot, the way I can shoot the best, instead of trying to emulate a machine that, in reality, I can't.

Anyway, I get your point, and I agree, to a point. But, the hooter shooter doesn't shoot like I want to shoot, in terms of grip pressure distribution if nothing else, so I'm going to tune the bow to me, that's all.


> Does it make sense to throw your center shot way out to match your torqued grip? I think it would be better to try to change your grip to reduce torque.


Who's advocating throwing center shot WAY out? I set up my center shot with a laser so that the arrow, when on the rest, bow not drawn, was _DEAD NUTS_ parallel with the riser.

In the course of walk back tuning, which improved the left/right consistency of groups at different distances, the rest moved less than 1/8th of an inch. How much do you consider way out of center shot?

You know, if you're not actually grabbing the bow and doing anything extreme to it, and the only 'torque' is the fact that your center of pressure doesn't line up with the position of the arrow, which in turn, because of that alignment, applies torque to the bow and itself when fired... tuning the bow by aligning the rest to coincide with the hard pressure is, in fact, reducing torque in the shot, not just compensating for it.


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## rock monkey (Dec 28, 2002)

so, lets get this straight. it is far better to fit the archer to the bow, than the bow to the archer.

a centershot setting is what it is because that is where the archer's form dictates it to be, not what an arbitrary measurement set on a machine determines it to be.

a bow is a simple machine. a hooter shooter is a simple machine.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simple_machine



fletched said:


> You should strive to shoot your bow with perfect form. A hooter shooter can achieve this where as most archers can't. If you can't produce respectable results with your form, it is good to try to improve it. If you can make changes to your form to get closer to what the hooter shooter does, then most likely you are improving your form.
> 
> Does it make sense to throw your center shot way out to match your torqued grip? I think it would be better to try to change your grip to reduce torque.
> 
> ...


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## fletched (May 10, 2006)

BarneySlayer said:


> I don't disagree with any of this. The key to what you're saying is, "If you can't produce respectable results with your form..."
> 
> if somebody has bad form, such as actually gripping the bow and torquing it, it will probably not only be 'incorrect', it will also very likely be inconsistent, because good form is when you do as little as possible, because the less you do, the less you can do differently. So, yes, you're right, if somebody has bad form, it's not only a bad idea to tune to match their form, it's probably also very difficult, and not worth trying because their shooting will be so inconsistent that you won't be able to do it.
> 
> ...


We should try to shoot a bow with the best possible form. A hooter shooter can give us some insite on what we may need to improve on. I am not saying that we should try to duplicate a hs to exacting standards. I think if you can shoot holes through the paper close to what the hs does then that could be a good sign. I would be more concerned with left/right issues more so than up/down.

If your grip induces torque, it will be compensated with the center shot. That is why I commented on "throwing the center shot way out". The center shot should align the arrow with the power stroke, not the riser. The power stroke should be square to the riser but that depends on the grip. It also depends of where your limb tips are setting in respect to the riser. A cable gaurd can pull the limb tips in that direction. This will effect center shot. I to align my starting point for center shot square to the riser and hope it stays close. Most of the time it does. Riser flex, limb pocket design, limb design and construction, arrow spine and cable gaurd/roller can influence center shot. 

My point is that a hs is a reliable way to get answers to bow tuning and form tuning.


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## BarneySlayer (Feb 28, 2009)

fletched said:


> The center shot should align the arrow with the power stroke, not the riser.
> ....
> My point is that a hs is a reliable way to get answers to bow tuning and form tuning.


Then, in not so many words, we agree


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## fletched (May 10, 2006)

rock monkey said:


> so, lets get this straight. it is far better to fit the archer to the bow, than the bow to the archer.
> 
> a centershot setting is what it is because that is where the archer's form dictates it to be, not what an arbitrary measurement set on a machine determines it to be.
> 
> ...


It is simple. You complicate it. Why? Who know.

The fit is give and take on both ends. The bow will need to adjusted to fit the shooter and the shooter will have to make adjustments to shoot the bow correctly. How hard is that to understand.

If an archers form is not correct, you can't tune that out of the bow. The form will need to be adjusted. So YES, the archer may need to may adjustments to fit the bow. The bow and archer needs to work as one complete unit. It requires the archer to feel and understand what makes the bow shoot it's best and make the required adjustments to their form and to the bow so that there is no conflicts between the shooter and the bow. A hooter shooter can be a great tool to compare yourself to. We are human and can't perform like a machine. We can learn to understand the difference between the two and this may help an archer develop better form.

The center shot of a bow is determined bu the design and function of the bow. It can be altered by the shooter. This is fine but only to a certain degree. If a lot of torque is induced by the shooter, it would be better for the shooter to correct his grip instead of trying to adjust it out with the rest. There again, a hooter shooter doesn't induce torque so if we can learn to use a grip that induces less torque, it would be better.

You can take what I written to the extreme if you like or you can take it like it intended it to be.


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