# field archery at unknown distances????



## 180 p&y (Jul 5, 2003)

why dont they have feild archery and set targets at unknown distances? so the guys that are really good at judging yardage have an advantage over guys that can shoot but their eyes are too close together for them to have proper depth perception. just wondered


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## [email protected] (Feb 23, 2004)

It's called FITA Field.


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## AKDoug (Aug 27, 2003)

At least in FITA they recognize that gapping is o.k., unlike in 3D where they sweep it under the rug


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## field14 (May 21, 2002)

And claim that "framing" with the scope, dot, bubble, and pin gaps isn't "accurate enough" to get you in the 12 ring...yet, I believe the FITA field scores run in the range of 555 to 558.....with some close yardages, but many well past 50 meters.....

Whoops....I used the "F" word, didn't I? That is ILLEGAL for 3-D....and one noted Professional archer and author got severely chastised by some 3-D top guns for writing about how to use the scope and site to "frame".......

Since it is ILLEGAL to use the site to help figure distances.....I just can't imagine anyone using their site for anything but putting the dot or circle in the scope where they want to hit and IGNORING anything to do with what the target looks like, its sizing, and that sort of thing.....

But EYES ALONE are equal to or better than laser rangefinders...at least that is what SOME 3-Ders try to tell us.....

field14


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## StevenB (Jun 2, 2002)

field14 said:


> And claim that "framing" with the scope, dot, bubble, and pin gaps isn't "accurate enough" to get you in the 12 ring...yet, I believe the FITA field scores run in the range of 555 to 558.....with some close yardages, but many well past 50 meters.....
> 
> Whoops....I used the "F" word, didn't I? That is ILLEGAL for 3-D....and one noted Professional archer and author got severely chastised by some 3-D top guns for writing about how to use the scope and site to "frame".......
> 
> ...


do I detect a bit of sarcasm


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## AKDoug (Aug 27, 2003)

No way. Tom doesn't have a sarcastic bone in his body.  

I have lots of yardage judging systems in my bag. I never change my mind when that foam buck doesn't fit between my 20 and 30 yard pin :zip:


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## Bobmuley (Jan 14, 2004)

field14 said:


> And claim that "framing" with the scope, dot, bubble, and pin gaps isn't "accurate enough" to get you in the 12 ring...yet, I believe the FITA field scores run in the range of 555 to 558.....with some close yardages, but many well past 50 meters.....
> 
> Whoops....I used the "F" word, didn't I? That is ILLEGAL for 3-D....and one noted Professional archer and author got severely chastised by some 3-D top guns for writing about how to use the scope and site to "frame".......
> 
> ...


Where was this mystical "framing" in the old IBO, when scopes weren't allowed? Seems the Chapells, Ulmers, Burley Hall, etc. used nothing but a straight pin. 
They were putting out pretty consistent high 390 scores (there were no 11s or 12s in the old days). They must have been excellent at framing with a 1/32" bead.  You don't have consistent target sizes for a range of yardages in 3D like in Fita field to even get you in the ballpark. Most of the top echelon shooters could also tell you the yardage without looking through their sights first; how does that word???  

Quit the crap and give some of these guys credit for the talent that they do have.....shooting and estimating yardage. 

Now Doug, is that the small buck, medium buck, large buck, muley buck, antelope buck, blackbuck or what....oh wait, those are only McKenzies and you'd have to memorize all the Rhineharts as well. Seems there's big magic method to framing, but nobody wants to talk about it. Its the best kept secret outside of what happened to JFK. At least people talk about that conspiracy. I tend to believe that it doesn't exist, because somebody would have surely leaked it by now.

And it is called Fita field and is just as much fun as regular field


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## field14 (May 21, 2002)

Where was this "mystical framing" in the IBO....well at the beginnings, it was RAMPANT and used all the time...until they tried to pass rules to stop a lot of what was going on...then it became more subtle.

Simple to do with multiple PINS too....I'm not saying it gets you dead perfect...but it sure can get you closer...if you know your "system" well enough AND practice it, and also KNOW what those animals look like TO YOU at varying distances.

I will guarantee that unless you KNOW your equipment stone cold, hone your skills by practicing SHOOTING at the animals at varying distances, and perfect your form...you will be "contributing" to the coffers of the top guns that have the time and money to OWN a complete set of animals, AND the dedication and skills needed to make the strong shot when the chips are down.

Anyone in their right minds will eventually learn what things look like thru their scope or between or on their pins and be able to use that as an aid...and if you think people are NOT using their sites...then the duping is definitely complete with regards to you! You have no choice but to USE YOUR SITE as an aid...it helps you aim, and if used properly can be more of an aid than that...and NOBODY can see thru your site or eyes when you are shooting.

Am I saying these people are shooting outside the boundaries of the RULES....absolutely NOT...they are simply utilizing what is available to them to the utmost, is all. But those people are NOT more gifted than EVERYONE ELSE out there with some "mystical magical genius of distance estimation"...they are just smarter and more dedicated.

If you think for one minute those top 3-Ders are out there simply "guessing", then again, the duping is complete with regards to you! For the kind of bragging rights and money being put out and offered, nobody in their right minds would go out and try to simply GUESS...they would put as much of the ball in their court as possible. THEN, you perfect your shots and form...and LEARN MORE every time you shoot.

It is one thing to miss...it is yet another to use the "mis-guessed the yardage" excuse with a gross left or right miss. It is one thing to mis-guess the yardage...it is yet another to KNOW whether you got lucky or not...and that the arrow did NOT go where you aimed it or intended it to go....

It is one thing to miss because you "mis-judged" the yardage...it is yet another to KNOW which way you are tending to mis-judge that day and CORRECT FOR IT immediately...or, it is a gross oversight if you don't have any knowledge of YOUR PERSONAL TENDENCIES on certain situations...that is, do you tend to estimate it as longer or shorter than it really is..if you don't know your tendencies, then you are handing over points to your opposition.

CONCENTRATION is part of this game, and you have got to know whether it was YOU and you misguessed and WHICH WAY you are mis-guessing and make the adjustments NOW...not 3 targets down the road.... You don't stand out there flappin' your jaws....you listen, keep your eyes open, and PLAY YOUR GAME and analyze YOUR tendencies...or YOU LOSE.

It is normal to 'discuss' what you shot a target for after the shot, and it is common to get differences among the group..even if everyone shot a 10 or 12...but then the SILENCE and funny looks when a simple question is asked: "Did that arrow go where you pointed it for that yardage?" Many people cannot answer that or WON'T answer it....

Nope...the Ulmers, Chappells, Halls, Dixons, Wunderles, etc, etc...were NOT out there GUESSING...they KNEW/KNOW what was going on...and I will nearly guarantee that not ALL of it was simply with their EYES ALONE....they KNEW what things looked like and how to figure that out....

It is just easier today, because the bows are faster, thus the margin of error is MUCH WIDER than it was 10 years ago....put back in a 125 grain point minimum, or make everyone use HUNTING GEAR that is LEGAL for their state and watch the scores drop like a rock....until things are 'refigured', that is. The margin of error will narrow, and it will be awhile until the top guns figure things out again for the new system, but figure it out..>THEY WILL.

field14


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## OneBowTie (Jun 14, 2002)

what i find funny about this whole thread....is that it really does hit on what the marked yardage guys are claiming about 3d....change it to get more folks involved into the game....

well, now if you really want to speak VOLUMES as in numbers.....change field archery so that all targets are at unknown distances, and you just might draw back some numbers....after all, no one can deny it aint attracting the numbers of that unmarked yardage stuff...

so perhaps you folks that want to change something to more people involved, should look at your own venues first.....

national 3d events at least 2twice a month that draw over 1000 participants......now, i do believe there is 1 national field shoot a year....so which venue really needs help to get it going and revived???????

those who live in glass houses shouldnt cast stones....

so what do you say field14......should field archery get the overhaul that appears long overdue????? or should it just continue to shrink up and find extinction??????

now who was talking about doing things for the good of the sport....to change things to get more involved....

really quite simple....make everything unmarked, offer money.....get rid of certain dress codes.....and you will see a explosion of participation in all those venues


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## Bobmuley (Jan 14, 2004)

Oh my. Have you ever been to a 3D?? You can ask any of the top pros what they think the yardage is to that tree over yonder and they'll tell you to within a yard. Do you think they've also predetermined through GPS satelite coordination and pacing where they are in relation to said tree before they showed up? They're more prepared and dedicated than I thought.


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## jeff 55/75 (Sep 8, 2004)

I shoot field @ unknown yardage all you have to do is not look @ the yardage marker and shoot . Its great practice for judging unknown yardage .

1 arrow per target x= 12 out side the x = 10 pro ring = 8 3 ring = 5


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## field14 (May 21, 2002)

Actualy, OBT,
The IFAA shoots the FITA FIELD...and it is UNMARKED...you ought to try it sometime...if you want a lesson in humility...and having to shoot more than ONE SHOT per target in LESS THAN TWO MINUTES PER SHOT...you will NOT get 6 minutes or 8 minutes to shoot your arrows on one target! So you would need to beef up and work hard on your stamina...more than one arrow every 20 or 25 minutes...are you up to that?


Since you weren't around in the game when field was king and 3-D was begging, borrowing, and stealing, to get equal footing.....

What got 3-D going....was the ONE SHOT per target and go to the next one, and you could shoot 40 targets in an hour and a half, drive down the road to the next one, and then on Sunday, do TWO tournaments again.

It was simple: FASTER, ONE ARROW per target, and MORE TOURNAMENTS could be shot in a weekend. Nothing fancy, step up the the state, take your best estimate, put the selected pin where you thought it should be and shoot.

And I will admit that I got caught up in it for awhile too...until things were CHANGED in 3-D that started AGAIN to cater to the TOP SHOOTERS and to heck with the average Joe...

Then people started ogling the target for MINUTES before setting their sites, and letting down, and taking more and more time to "judge" the yardages...People started using the space between their limb edge and the wheel of the bow, or extending their arm and using one or the other of the 0-rings on their slings, or dialing their binocs...the old FRAMING situation...and it was used for quite some time before RULES were put in to try to stop it...but it just got more subtle... What they can't see, they can't enforce...hehahaha

It started taking LONGER AND LONGER...and finally got to the point that I constantly bring up...the hypocrites that withdrew from field 10 years ago for TIME reasons (field took too long) more than number of shots...are the same ones that today think it is fine to take 3 1/2 hours for 20 shots and 4 hours in some cases for TEN shots.

Now, here we are ten or fifteen years later and whadda we got? TWO FULL MINUTES per shooter for ONE shot. Backups up the ying yang on the courses...with the excuse that "being with our friends is what it is all about, so TIME doesn't matter (when 10 or 15 years ago TIME was their major gripe about field---hypocrites), PACING the targets, UMBIES, carrying enough paraphenalia around with you on the course to go on a camping trip, etc, etc, etc....

And they use the excuse for the backups as being..."so many people"....but 10 years ago, there were as many people, and yet it was NOT taking that long to shoot, BEFORE the TWO MINUTES per shot rule and all the JUNK that is being carried around...etc etc etc.

We read on here that in most areas, 3-D participation is declining...yet you purists don't want to change a thing, because as some of you say, 3-D is FINE THE WAY IT IS, so go fix FIELD....

So whadda we got...BOTH VENUES declining, but 3-D at a little slower rate...FOR NOW...

But in many areas we are seeing the DECLINE of 3-D and a re-birth of the field rounds...because now, the light is being seen...go shoot a field and shoot 112 arrows in 5 hours (including a lunch break), get MORE than one shot per target, use rangefinders if you wanna...but just don't use umbies to block the wind for the shooter.....and KNOW that if you miss, it is your fault and "mis-judging" the yardage isn't some lame excuse for every miss.

And.....you don't have to purchase a complete set of animals to get good enough to place at the top of your division...you can practice on the field targets for a month after the tournament before replacing them.....cuz the 3-D targets are taken in after the shoot...so that they don't get destroyed by getting shot up...or STOLEN by the locals.

So....3-D does have some things that need fixing...and they need to seek out some new things and offerings to encourage outsiders to come into the fold...and to draw even some of the old spotties into the game too...ANY INCREASE or potential for increased participation should be investigated, IMHO....but you "purists" are being totally selfish and resistant to any changes...out of fear, evidently that somehow, even tho they wouldn't shoot in YOUR divisions...the "new divisions" scores might, just might be a tad better or something...or that maybe some of them would eventually convert to YOUR divisions and bump your butt down the ladder even lower....

I don't know...but there isn't a phase of this game of archery that doesn't need some improvements and increase participation...and if you purists think for a minute that 3-D will last forever...you are most likely DEAD WRONG...the danger signs are there...and us old farts that have been around for awhile can see them just as plain as the big E on the eye charts...it is just the purists and the die-hard 3-Ders that cannot see the forest for the trees and think they can keep running it the way it is like there is no tomorrow...

Ain't it funnnn to call out the fieldman.....STIR>STIR>STIR>>>>I hope you purists are enjoying this as much as I am....haha BAH, BAH, BAH, BASH.

field14


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## centerx (Jun 13, 2002)

That's not how it's working….

You shoot 3-D because you love it for what it is and that happens to be the most popular form of archery right now… So the question is how to pull people who do not like it or enjoy it nearly as much as other forms out onto the 3-D course and start shooting?? That is to cater to hunters that are "scared" of what they are seeing in it's current state and "target shooters" who do not enjoy having to guess before making a shot …

Both types of individuals are easily accommodated. Field will NEVER no matter WHAT you do get as big as 3-D archery again. In my opinion that is because of the opportunity to shoot the most realistic animal targets possible AND the ability to not knowing were the impact point should be which is the ONLY thing 3-D archery has in common with actual hunting.

Nobody ever disputes these 2 out of 3 things that make 3-D popular.. The only hang up SOME people have is the yardage.. And the yardage concern can be easily addressed. Making Field unmarked would do nothing to make it popular because that's only a very small part of what makes it popular to begin with.. Plus there is no money to be won. And we seen how cranky the amateurs can get if they don't win there $1.82

3--D archery is THE outdoor target game in the US so you might as make it as broad based and appealing for everybody who likes to shoot such.


On another note….

All the top dogs are very good at judging and they practice as well .. While the rules books state that "gapping" is illegal I just don't personally feel that it should be and I do believe that the high enders do use more then "practiced instincts" to get shots off on occasion.. Case in point….

Sometimes when I'm shooting with pins I'll judge a yardage. Draw back and center the pin on the kill and then realize my sigh picture is all wrong for the yardage I picked … Sorting like "boy that 20 yard pin sure does look further up on the back then it should" Now what am I supposed to do ?? Take the shot and miss because I just effectively gapped and violated rules or do I adjust my hold a little higher/lower on the animals "vitals" 

I mean it's expertise, ability and skill that allowed you do determine the problem in the first place The rules say you can not benefit from those abilities….

Now saying that if the pro who undoubtedly is VERY good at yardage estimation ( even with gapping you can't nail down the yardage good enough to hit all those 12 rings) draws down on an animal and realizes.. "hey I can see a little of the deers back above the top of my scope.. I should not be able to at the distance I guessed that for " .You think they are not adjusting there hold to compensate when and if there equipment gives them feedback to a potential problem ??? 

Not saying anybody all out cheats The rules state that you cant make adjustments after your draw your bow so pro's ( or anybody else) are not actively training on how to use there equipment to discover yardages. However some will use it on occasion to fine tune a guess once on draw I can guarantee 

Think I'm wrong??


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## OneBowTie (Jun 14, 2002)

field14 said:


> Actualy, OBT,
> The IFAA shoots the FITA FIELD...and it is UNMARKED...you ought to try it sometime...if you want a lesson in humility...and having to shoot more than ONE SHOT per target in LESS THAN TWO MINUTES PER SHOT...you will NOT get 6 minutes or 8 minutes to shoot your arrows on one target! So you would need to beef up and work hard on your stamina...more than one arrow every 20 or 25 minutes...are you up to that?
> 
> 
> ...


your right, i wasnt around when field was king and 3d was beggin,borrowing and stealing....my my how things have changed.....

so in other words....you have seen the best of times for field...and now your tired of wallowing in the worst of times....and want 3d to change to resemble the by gone glory days of a once great king......

look, if you ask me....the dawning of the new age brought us a venue that is just too hard for most (3d) and we all want to be able to go back to the non competitive days (marked)............it is obvious that with todays archers....you have those who thrive on competitions (3d loyalitst) and those who want everything FAIR (lazy marked yardage folks).....

lets face it field.....you old dogs are just plain sick and tired of seeing the new vouge in archery.....shooters with no merit being able to just up and iron on any patch of choosing.....get free equipment with the arms extended palms up look.....and you old dogs used to like being able to leave the office and have to shoot with your with your spandex and button downs....and i know this new wave camo wear is just getting to you....

and i know you miss the days when someone mentioned butt, yall thought it was time to go pull....now with the new shooters, when you hear butt, someone is trying to pull.....things sure have changed....

admit it field...all this new jargon and lingo has you former kings feeling like puppetts....sock puppets to be more precise  

and i know that yall used to shoot those 2 cam jams...and it still gets way deep down under your skin to see those camo one cams.....which have created the term..."ONE CAM SLAM"....i know, yall are tired of saying....not another damn slam......

ease up field....quit trying to go back to the days of the horse and buggy....step up on field....we live in the day of pave roads and the price of water far exceeds the price of gas......we really have come a long way havent we......

pass the umbrella and sit back on that there chair and relax...we got plenty of time......


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## Silver Dingo (May 27, 2003)

What is really funny is that fita had more cheats per target than any game going. Not once did they try and police it to the point where genuine competitors simply gave the game away and went elsewhere. It was the biggest rug job I ever saw. 
Some of the framing systems were so elaborate as to be laughable in their overt display of rules violation. Their answer..We would upset too many top shooters if we crack down it so we will just allow them to operate outside the rules.
playin outside the square wasnt invented by 3ders, noseups had a mortgage on it years before foam became king. :thumbs_do


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## MOBOW#1 (Jun 14, 2005)

*this is no fun*

3-d is a lot of fun and it's all I have ever shot. FITA or what ever :zip: Dad always said if you can't say something good Don't say nothing at all. No argument!!!!!!!!


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## field14 (May 21, 2002)

Actuall, field shooting in its infancy was UNMARKED, just like 3-D is now....HMMMMMMM.

Then, they PROGRESSED with the equipment and marked the distances (they didn't have rangefinders), as a result of the bowsights (crude, but they worked) being developed.

Same ole, same ole...the old field "purists" peed and moaned and did EXACTLY WHAT YOU 3-D purists are doing now...peeing and moaning about how YOU are king on the block and the new "changes" ain't for happenin' and ain't for this world or the next. They said that things were fine the way they are now and weren't going to change for no "SISSIES" using them new fangled bowsites to CHEAT WITH....

Yessir....they wouldn't change...and UNMARKED field (excepting FITA field) became DEFUNCT....

Then the marked field came into being the TOP GAME IN TOWN for years...but they did change a few things along the way....for awhile.

Then, the releases and compounds came along...and again, the field "purisits" peed and moaned and said field was "PERFECT JUST THE WAY IT IS" and saw no need to change it...and tried to vote down releases and compounds...and LOST the election. So, then releases and compounds came in and they were called CHEATS and SISSIES...and the field purists LOST THE SHOW, and became also rans....

Then, people got fed up with the high scores and the favoritism given to the top shooters..ESPECALLY when the field target change occurred in `1977...and then the rudiments of the 3-D game started.

FIELD shooters said that they were the TOP GAME IN TOWN and wouldn't change or adapt...and now...well 3-D is KING '''''FOR NOW"""""

But I will guarantee you that is something isn't done and the hard liners don't get off of dead center...the hard-liners, in a short time will be the ALSO RANS and will lose in the long run anyways.

EVERY TIME in just the past 50 years hard -liners have stated that thing are perfect and refused to change...the change came and devastated the previous game and the way it was played.

Take that into account, the CHANGES ARE EMMINENT if the sport is to thrive, prosper, and gain in popularity....the OLD WAYS are gone, and I KNOW IT...

The ball is now in the 3-D KING OF THE HILL's hands...and the direction they are choosing will result in a TURN OVER...and turn overs lose ball games...


field14


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## JAVI (Jun 19, 2003)

Bring back the 5 - 3


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## field14 (May 21, 2002)

Javi,

The TRIED that back in around 1996 or so...nope...didn't happen...threatened boycotts...of course, they SHRUNK the scoring rings for the 5-3 scoring and made them way smaller than the pre-1977 faces were.

Most everyone hated the target...it lasted ONE YEAR and bye, bye....

I think we have progressed well beyond that 5-3 scoring...but I certainly don't understand why 5-4-3-2-1 scoring shouldn't come into play OUTDOORS just like it is indoors....USE the lines on the field face, and put them onto the hunter round...can't see them from the stake anyways, and STANDARDIZE the scoring as 5-4-3-2-1- and make people PAY for missing the 5-ring by 8 inches or more...they shouldn't get the same score as someone missing the 5-ring by 1/8"...but that won't float anyone's boat either.

Again..the PURISTS and the hard-liners won't CHANGE...they figure, and I've heard NFAA directors say it time and again...."things are fine the way they are, and we see NO NEED TO CHANGE"....this SHOULD be telling the current hard-liner 3-D purists something loud and clear...

BUT...the hard-liner 3-D purists are still convinced that UNMARKED is the ONLY way to shoot 3-D, and if you don't like it...STAY AWAY and go shoot field....and lo and behold...it wouldn't surprise me one bit to see people doing just that....GOING AWAY and making their OWN organization(s)....just like the ASA and IBO did when field lost their market share.

History repeating itself, and the purists are blind and complacent...and REFUSE to change....

field14


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## OneBowTie (Jun 14, 2002)

field14 said:


> Actuall, field shooting in its infancy was UNMARKED, just like 3-D is now....HMMMMMMM.
> 
> Then, they PROGRESSED with the equipment and marked the distances (they didn't have rangefinders), as a result of the bowsights (crude, but they worked) being developed.
> 
> ...


you still arent getting it are you sunshine......  

it aint about winning or losing....its about what game your playing and who your paying.....

answer me this.....who is field archery paying????? and how much are they paying????? now my friend....the answer looms large.....

if the next new archery king comes to town....it wont have anything to do with anything other than the size of checks.....he who writes the biggest check...WINS....

the next king of archery will be the one who gives more than 3d does....i mean, lets face it....in your glory days....could a virtual beginner walk in and have patches that make dale jr's uniform look patchless


and could such beginner get more equipment and sponsorship deals than a man of your stature today????? i mean, you and i both know its got to dig at the very core of you field loyalists....seeing such meritless 3d midgets have such monumental deals and of all things, an actual opinion on the way things should be......

and by your own admission here.....its got to just rip the very fibers of your soul knowing such 3d cud jaw, camo suited, of all things.....opinionated beginners running around with all the glamor and sparkle of a hollywood movie star.....and to make things worse.....they use those cheating scopes and gapping bino's to pad the scores....man, talk about sissys....

i dont know how you do it sunshine.....but you continue to operate in a horse and buggy, amongst the new age 3d super hwy.....i gotta hand it to you....you are living breathing testament to what it use to be....

now like i said earlier....go pull up the chair, you know the one that holds all those snacks for a 5 hour round.....open one of those new super cool 3d umbies.....and prop it into one of those bowtree holders.....cause us 3ders are going to be here awhile    

dig dig dig....

oh and field...dont you dare come back and try bashing 3d no more...ill call the thread cops and have your expired field license yanked....30 days in the field might just do you some good


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## Silver Dingo (May 27, 2003)

Well chevhead ya had me thinkin ole field might have some amish blood with those horse and buggy comments.
I dont think so tho cos all his posts are ramblin about doom prophesy and cryin aforin ya hit and the Amish dont do that.  :teeth:


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## field14 (May 21, 2002)

Strange as it may seem...probably, in ten years YOU will be reading the squirms of the NEW "banty rooster" saying the same thing to YOU, the old geezer....in the horse and buggy.

Just to stir....the field shooters don't drag all that crap around the range with them...and you well know it. But then you don't see a field shooter that isn't READY to step up to the stake and shoot when their turn comes because they have to unload all the garbage, or strain up out of their 3-D cool stool, and fidget for their arrows in the piping that is attached thereupon.

Sure do agree with you that the new king organization of the archery world will be the one paying the most bucks...and if the ASA and IBO don't CHANGE and lend a ready ear to the OPPORTUNITIES when they come a knockin'....they'll end up just like the field shooting.....right along with THEIR purists and change-fighters.

I am beginning to think that the greatest FEAR of today's purists has just been defined by you....FEAR of not gettin' that fat paycheck, cuz of the NEW CLUB that will be coming on. FEAR of moving down the leaderboard from some NKOTB snot-nosed newbie that ain't got no FEAR...and wants to set the world on fire...

Fear of perhaps some other way of doing things that will rock the boat and move the old farts of 3-D aside----that NEW BLOOD you all keep talking about, but REFUSE to allow to get started...cuz afterall...it has been said my several of you..."3-D has enough shooters already, we don't NEED any more", or "3-D is just fine the way it is, leave it alone"...

So, perhaps the leadership will "leave it alone'...but I don't think the leadership is quite that dense to not see NEEDED CHANGES and/or ADDITIONS to the game right on the horizon...

The leadership, hopefully has better sense than to be complacent like so many of the constituents...at least YOU purists had better hope so...or your pure little game of 3-D as it now stands will end up being the OLD GAME in town sooner than you expect it to. 

And STIR, STIR, STIR.....how's about giving all of us the 3-Der's definition of a BASH....cuz it sure seems that it changes by the moment, depending up whom the writer is and/or if that writer happens to be a "sometime 3-Der", a purist of 3-D (they do anything they want), a spottie from indoors, a spottie from field or FITA, or just a general archery buff out looking to have a good time.

And STIR some more...youins all that are so set that 3-D is perfect and just fine the way it is...consider buying a rear view mirror, cuz that change that is coming is getting closer all the time...and will, sooner or later, get out of second gear and pass you all by...and you'll be all out of bullets and the power to catch back up.

Cuz youins are sure pickin' and choosin' what you want to hear and read, and what you want to define as a BASH as opposed to the TRUTH...and most times the TRUTH HURTS...so you squirm and whine and complain...just like a 13 year old kid that suddenly figures mom and dad are just plain stupid and don't know anything.....but they learn too late sometimes just how smart mom and dad really ARE/were....

30 days in the slammer? oh, well...I figure youins 3-D purists can get glad just the same way you got mad....STIR STIR STIR....bah,bah,bah, BASH.

Zing, zoom...all the way to the moon.

Ain't it plain fun to draw each other out and joust? Such a Knight's Tale we have going....and better than Agincourt any day.....But maybe you don't even know what/where Agincourt is all about?

field14

field14

field14


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## Silver Dingo (May 27, 2003)

Field I have in the past enjoyed stirring the pot with you. Your posts have been well thought out,entertaining and, dare i say even enlightening at times. However after looking out the window I see the sky is in fact not falling. It was merely a piece of space debris that hit you in the head you old son and it got you good.
You are not the only archer thats been around quite a while, You are not the only archer to witness the shift of power several times in the relatively short time frame that the modern sport has exsisted, You are not the only archer who misses the days when other venues ruled. You are not the only archer who resents former unknowns rising to even greater heights than some of the maybe more deserving pros of old. 
You are however the only archer who wont swallow the bitter pill of time and accept that this is how it is and will be for who knows how long. It may end next week it may end next century, You despite your doom saying have no earthly idea and neither does anyone else.
the truth is field, YOUR PREDICTIONS ARE NOT WHAT YOU ARE AFRAID WILL HAPPEN BUT WHAT YOU PRAY WILL HAPPEN. It was when i first realised this that I lost all respect for you and your rambling nonsensical posts. Your animosity and envy of the modern day stars of archery does no good whatsoever to the sport as a whole and only makes you look like what you really are. An embittered envious old man.
Be careful what you wish for and be glad its only 3d that is your beef. Who knows we may have a game that demands even less archery skill and more reflex action akin to the espn games or similar as the next big thing. Given that it can command at least some tv audience i am betting that it will.

Oh. and btw. baaa baa baah and stir stir stir.


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## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

*ESPN may be the next archery venue to come*

Its getting the TV coverage. If thats what archery demands and promoters feel works. Thats fine.

I think 3D will be around into my senior years. But if not, Ill live with it and shoot whatever venue happens. Its still all archery! You place an arrow in a bow and shoot it.


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## field14 (May 21, 2002)

I see that SOME of the fish were indeed biting the past few days, and had I been wanting them for the dining, I would not have gone hungry!

"Embittered old man".....fish were indeed biting...and PT Barnum rolled over on that one, hahaha.


"Predictions praying what will happen"...not hardly, but I'm confident of one thing for near certain...the game of 3-D as it is now being done...WILL CHANGE...just like every other venue, and the purists might as well get used to it...for whichever direction the game will turn to...cuz change is INEVITABLE, it is only common sense.

Seems that sometimes people just don't READ what I post and take it as it is written straight from the text...but of course that is the norm, since the facial expressions, body English, and voice inflexions cannot be seen nor heard.

Yes, I dislike the hyprocisy of what was said and done in the past that suddenly is NOW perfectly fine...and hypocrites definitely bother me.

Yes, I think TWO minutes for one shot and then saying it is fine, cuz "you like to BS with your friends" should be changed BACK to the one minute maximum per shooter...but really only because of the time element to shoot only the few shots in a 3-D event....the TIME element helped bring down field archery, and if you purists would just get off your high horses for a minute and PAY ATTENTION to what others...and I'm certainly not alone....are saying about the TIME ELEMENT...you too would strive to get things back onto track concerning the time element.

Yes, I think that using the umbies to block off the wind for the shooter at the stake should be forbidden, that one, IMHO is the most asinine thing I think was ever brought into archery shooting, and nobody will ever convince me otherwise. I won't have someone do it for me, and I wouldn't hold the umbie for someone else..>TO BLOCK THE WIND so they can hold their bow arm more still....

Yes, I think carrying all that junk around the course is nonsense...but with the TIME ELEMENT and the time rules not being enforced...what choice to people have to take the strains off their legs out there?

However, those of you that read into what I have to say are really missing the point...and PT Barnum turns over again....

Yes, I think that the rules should be enforced EVENLY across the board, Pro, Amateur, Female, Cub, Bowhunter...the fact that a group is "shooting for the money and on a different course" should NEVER have anything to do with how the written rules are enforced...either have them across the board and enforced that way...or write SEPARATE ONES for those "special groups" and then ENFORCE those special ones to the letter too.

However, that above all said and done, I"m not to old to realize that it is the way it is NOW, and there are lots of people out there enjoying the game the way it is now, and there are those that will fight nearly to their last breath to keep it that way, too.

All that doesn't mean that I, too, cannot openly express my opinion, and attempt to show other readers that there are two sides to every issue..radical or not. I have the right to entertain myself, and to "pull chains" too..and if people read it as a BASH, fine....but just don't keep changing the definition of a BASH to suit the fancy of the moment.

BASH on the AT forums is becoming a cliche and it seems only to apply when something I and just a few others have something unpopular to say about the "popular things"...be it 3-D venues, or a certain line of bows that currently seem to want to "rule the roost." Again, here comes that "hyprocrisy" thing...It is OK if bad things are said about ANY OTHER VENUE but 3-D...that is opinion...but say one thing out of line about 3-D, and suddendly, it is a BASH....hypocrites....

So, I look at it this way...you people that don't like what I post..don't READ THEM...and I figure you will get glad the same way you got mad, and both of us will end up out shooting our bows our way anyways....

LIke some have told me, and I have told you...you pay your entry fee just like me for whatever event...so shoot your arrows YOUR way, and not mine...however...keep the rules CONSISTENTLY ENFORCED no matter who the player or what their 'stature' is.

Cuz the sun is going to rise tomorrow no matter what (at least for now)....and the reason I know this.....cuz it is ALREADY TOMORROW in AUSTRALIA!

So, do whatch hasta do....and 'respect', as you call it is lost and gained daily, and sometimes hour to hour....so life goes on...put the duck oil in one back pocket and the preparation "H" in the other...you will need both during the course of the day....

field14


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## OneBowTie (Jun 14, 2002)

well field as your stepping up to the scales and weighing in with all your trophy fish.....  just remember......not only will 3d change from as it is today.....every single venue we know will change from its exact existance from today.....because change is indeed inevitable....

however, as you cry for the change or sudden overhaul of 3d.....which i can and do appreciate you looking out for everyone else.....i have to ask and wonder....what happened to field archery????? did you not fight hard enough or vocal enough.....or was field just a victim of the old days....you know, no internet, horse and buggy  , or was the telegraph just not very effective  

i have to take my hat off to you.....as you do have seemed to learn from the past.....and/or past experience (watching field archery hang itself)....and now you are champion the cause for all of us who arent enjoying ourselfs on the course.....you have shown me the light anyway.....i dont need no stinkin umbie.....carrying a chair is silly and sissyfied......spending 4-5 hours shooting 20 arrows with friends and aquaintances is just absurd and a waste of a good day......3d pro's dress like clowns and arent dependable for their tee times.....the new 3ders dont appreciate anything.......(feel free to step in anytime in case i forget anything  )......3d amateurs shooting for money have no clue what archery is about, and havent earned their way as the real pro's have.......

now me, im just not smart enough to know whats right or wrong with archery.....but i am starting to wonder......with all the problems they have in 3d....you know....cheating, gapping, systems, time, money, lack of money, payouts, low payouts, umbies, chairs, lines, lack of lines, pulling, non pulling, good foam, bad foam......is it just you and me who are wrong.....NO, CANT BE.....has to be those other 1000 plus 

ok...enough stir stir and stir  

if we are going to fix whats broke....and if were going to fix something worth fixing....lets fix field archery.....lets make it available to the masses....i mean lets address the main issue here.....how many major field shoots are there a year????? and how long does that shoot last????? do you not see a problem with either or both of those answers???? now i will be the first to admit, i might be able to get more time off work than some.....but aint no way im can take the whole week plus some....and to clarify things....I WANT TOO

now ive been to two field shoots in my life....both of em were at the TUSCARORA archers club in maryland....AWESOME FACILITY.....i went the first time by myself and met up with friends.....i went the second time with several folks....all from right here at AT.....some actually traveled cross country to get there, and we even had a guy from AUSTRALIA come and shoot with us, who was 16 hours away in the states, but choose to come and shoot with us.....so, i do know that people enjoy or want to enjoy field archery.....but they just dont have 10 days to burn to do so.....

now next year if the good folks at TUSCARORA will have us back (which i have no indication they wont) i am sure that every single person who came this year will return, and than some.....and this is all a non sanctioned event....just a mere fun/smackdown shoot....and i predict we will have a minimum of 75 shooters next year for a purely fun/smackdown shoot.....not bad for a dead venue now is it  

so instead of us trying to change the venue where the masses are still going and showing up....lets help to change field archery and get it back where it does belong....as one of the kings of archery.....because i agree with all that you say about it and its glorious past.....its an awesome venue....doesnt take anymore time than 3d and you shoot many more arrows....however, i think we need to make it available and the rules more understandable.....

and field....i like my posts shaken....not stirred  :cocktail:


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## field14 (May 21, 2002)

OBT,
At least your post wasn't quite as lame as the last one...however, you STILL haven't quite gotten the message...

You mention how right now 3-D is getting people in the 1,000 range attending their bigger shoots...GREAT. You asked where field was and what happened to it.

Well....used to be, when I first started that the major field shoots pressed that 1,000 shooter mark too...Then, the TIME ELEMENT came into play.

Let's see...when I first started, at local and state tournaments, we shot 56 targets in one day. Started shooting usually at 9AM, and were off the course by 3PM, including lunch break after the first 28 targets. Yes, I did say 56 field targets per day...that is 224 arrows in a total of 6 hours, including lunch break!

Then, things CHANGED (probably for the better). People started shooting release aids and recurves, then compounds. Scores went up, and shooters started slowing down and using binoculars to ogle the targets...Bye bye to the 56 targets in one day...cuz that slow down meant there wasn't a chance in heck of getting r dun anymore.

People started complaining about the time element, both indoors and out...thus TIME LIMITS were put in...sometimes strictly enforced, and sometimes not....

Then, scores continued to climb...and a select group of people lobbied for a target and scoring change because the 560 scores were starting to show up more often...so, the select group lobbied hard enough and got the target changed along with the scoring.

TIME element got longer for only 28 targets, and people started taking an hour break locally after only 14 targets...and suddenly, you started at 9AM and were MAYBE off the course by 4PM for 28 targets including a lunch break of over an hour! And the participation was cut more than in half in a matter of 3 years...there was something else on the horizon......

People started using binoculars before shooting any shot, after shooting the shot, and again before the next one, and after it...and to watch the birdies and squirrels...all the time while standing on the stake. People started grumbling that there has got to be SOMETHING out there that will be faster than this garbage...now that "something else" that was faster and more fun had arrived....

and let there be light....the beginnings of the unmarked animal rounds came about....then two dimensional foam animals (unmarked). NO BINOCULARS were allowed at first and things went quickly on the ranges...less than 2 hours for 28 targets easy...go to two tournaments in one day...life was good, no sittin' and waiting for local JOE PRO to ogle every shot. 5 hours for a round was RIDICULOUS they said about FIELD Shooting...lets go to the animal events

Do you see something here? Do you see a trend when you compare it to nearly EXACTLY what has happened as the 3-D game "evolved" into what it is today? And where is it...WORSE as far as time element than field shooting was when those current 3-D purists "broke off" and formed their own organization, yes I said WORSE on TIME than field IS today.

Along with allowing a lot of the extra baggage that slows the game down even more, the venue has gotten to the point that shooting 40 targets locally is becoming a marathon, and on a regional or national level...well, 'nuf said.

But you purists say history won't repeat itself in 3-D and that the 3-D right now is PERFECT and the participation is showing that...1,000 plus is clearly proof that the sport is JUST FINE..

Well, you can see, that sure, 1,000+ is FINE....but it was also FINE for field...and then the TIME ELEMENT and SCORE ELEMENT, and FAVORITISM to the top shooters took its toll....and just like someone flipped a light switch....field was no longer KING OF THE HILL...

So, beware....3-D is at a crossroads right now...and my posts are NOT ALONE in saying that it is taking too long for so few shots, and things are just too slow out on the courses, and that there isn't equal enforcement of things out there...and on and on....

The "rangefinder division" is a almost parallel to the "release aid division" of the early 1970's...and I was a "field purist" and fought against release aids tooth and nail, along with many, many others...and we LOST...the change happened.
The unparallel part of it is that for 3-D, the rangefinder division probably wouldn't INCREASE the time element it takes to shoot the 20 or 40 targets for that day(s)...

But as far as being fought against....it figures...based on past experience.

Saying the same crap, fighting the same battles with the purists and leadership..saying it will "never happen" and that "X"X"X" Is just perfect the way it is and that 1,000 participants is PROOF of just how healthy the sport is.....

Yep...our lifetime STILL has a long time left...so I fell confident that the CHANGE will have to happen in my lifetime...and if 3-D doesn't CHANGE and make some accommodations to those elements that plagued the sport in the past...the ASA and IBO will become the "NFAA" of old and be taking the back seat to something new and innovative that offers something that is OUT OF THE RUT of the normal game in town.

Maybe it isn't even the 'rangefinder' division that will come on and give another shot in the arm...could be something else...what? Heck I dunno...maybe the "hooter shooter" division, or a laser sited division whre you jerk the bow back, put the red dot on the bull and pull the trigger and the shot goes whereever the dot is when the trigger is pressed...heck I don't know...but the game WILL CHANGE or 3-D wil NOT continue to have the 1,000 plus...

field14


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## FS560 (May 22, 2002)

The original question was about unmarked field. It might be fun to shoot a NFAA field or hunter round without the distances on the stakes.

However, if it was done on an existing field ranges with all the stakes still there but the distances painted over, for example, I would be able to figure out every one of them because I have all the distances for field and hunter rounds and the relationships thereof the way clubs stake the targets.

Not having both the hunter and field stakes in the lanes would make it quite harder.

Since I am a notorious poor distance estimator and a closet rubber deer shooter, I can see confusing the 40, the 44, and the 48 yard hunter targets. 

You full fledged 3D shooters with the calibrated eyeballs would have no difficulty though. Probably the next 3D rule chang will be to eliminate the calibrated contact lenses, oops I meant to say calibrated eyeballs.

I would not confuse the 36 yard shot from the 28 or 32 but I might confuse the 28 and the 32.

I can see mistaking the 35, 40, 45, 50 yard field targets. I could even mistake the 35 and the 50. I have done worse on the elk.

Still it might be fun. Especially if we put an orange dot in the lower corner of the 4 ring. No, it should straddle the 4/3 line and be worth 8 points.

I would try it.


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## OneBowTie (Jun 14, 2002)

geez field...you still jawing at me and calling my posts lame....  

what gives....i see some of your points...many of them.....but no matter what or how any of the venues change.....if its outdoors i am betting that at least one of the changes will be, to make umbrellas legal in all venues....seems that most people do enjoy shooting without the sun beating down on there sights, lens, pins, clarifiers, or even a little wind resistance is helpful....and since you seem to want change to help things for the better....id be curious on hearing your take on a change that is well needed...an umbie change?????

now, surely after all this time on the outs (since the rise of 3d and the fall of field) you have seen what were some of the pitfalls of archery.....as you mention, time constraints......time constraints.....and of course, unmarked distances.....and unmarked distances.....

i cant help but to wonder.....as you seem to really be pushing for 3d to have marked distance or a rangefinder class.....if you want a rangefinder class, why not just mark the distance, instead of everyone having to have a rangefinder....as you and i both know.....there are going to be some who are going to zap the targets and complain about the read they get, about the target being half yard or yard off....and if you know anything about rangefinders....you can put certain animals out-and if you zap them with 5 different lasers, your liable to get 5 different readings (especially the darker colored ones)....and time does seem to be a premium to you....so why waste the time with zappers...just mark it and be done with it....i mean, some folks just simply cant afford range finders, so whats the advantage, those with have an advantage over those without

field, i cant help but think you are missing the point on all of this....you keep dragging 3d into this and saying 3d purist broke off and went and started 3d because of the things they didnt like about field archery.....yet, when i at least formulate my opinion of the 3d pioneers, i didnt realize they were malcontents and hypocrites....i didnt realize wayne pearson, johnny heath, ulmer, derrick phillips, hopkins,ketcher, stepp, dixon, caudle's and those alabama gang were into field archery and caused the revolt.....i was under the impression that half of these guys dont know or have never shot field archery.....

it seems that you and a few of the field purists are holding a grudge or place blame on 3d for the demise of field archery....they are just two entirely different opportunities for us all to shoot 2 different venues....they both have there place and values to someone.....

and if you step back and quit the beat down on 3d..you will see...that the purists in 3d do indeed participate the most across the board in archery....and they do well at it....so really, do you think that all the big time 3ders are cheating or have some system????? come on....in my opinion, the 3d shooters just love archery the most right now....the want to shoot any and all forms...they dont care which form....now i will give it to you that it does appear that the 3d crowd does want money to be in it all....i dont fault them for that....(other than in my opinion, money is ruining the amateur ranks)

for the life of me.....i dont know why or how field archery dropped off....because i admit, it is the funnest form of archery i have shot....and if its availale to be shot with a good group, i dont know how it can get any better....i dont think it needs any change other than more opportunitys for everyone to shoot....

and for the record....if 3d did have a marked yardage class, thats the one id shoot in.....however they dont, and i still choose to go and enjoy the opportunites it offers....do i think they will change....yes i do, because i think right now, they are the most progressive operators in archery.....so i look forward to the day they do offer that marked yardage class and perhaps toeing the line with you....

now remember field.....i prefer my posts shaken not stirred :wink:


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## field14 (May 21, 2002)

OBT,
Believe it or not, I'm OPPOSED to marking the distances for 3-D on the stakes. Having spent enormous amounts of time building field courses and laying out 3-D courses and helping set them up and taking them down...the LAST THING I think we should do for 3-D is to MARK THE YARDAGES on the shooting stakes.

That would, IMHO, create the absolute necessity of having to have SEPARATE courses for the 3-D estimators and rangefinder persons. I am NOT, I repeat, am NOT proposing that ALL the 3-D change to "rangefinder" type shooting..>NO WAY..cuz, believe it or not, I LIKE to go out and figure yardages too...but I see way too many other people out there that pee and moan about the expenses and also way too many spotties that REFUSE to go to 3-D cuz of the fact they aren't good at "judging" and are totally unwilling to go out and spend the time and money to figure it out...

I can't see any sense in ELIMINATING the possibilities to bring MORE shooters into the 3-D game just cuz (sounds like a Carter release plug...but is isn't, haha)..the purists want to keep them away.

I just honestly don't really want to see 3-D fall off....and something else take over...my FEAR.....LOSING THE PLACES I NOW HAVE TO SHOOT...I've seen countless ranges totally fold when the workers got sick of setting up and taking down 3-D targets and then having no FIELD target buts around to shoot at...and I don't WANT to see that happen.

Make MORE work by putting yardages on the stakes for 3-D, IMHO is a disaster waiting to destroy the game of 3-D and take clubs down with it...we ALL want to keep the places we have to shoot.

I only want to see the thing opened up to MORE participants...and if it takes a rangefinder division to HELP...even if it is only for 5% or 10% MORE people, or brings the ladies and kids out...then I say GO FOR IT.

UMBIES....to block the sun and maybe the rain...really no problem with that....really....but to block of the WIND for the shooter...you'll never convince me of that one...that is just PLAIN STUPID, IMHO...we are outdoors to shoot in the elements, and WIND SHOOTING is really a huge part of OUTDOOR shooting....next thing you know they will want perfectly FLAT AND PERFECT standing positions at the stake....and YES, I have SEEN THAT on field courses...SHOOTING PLATFORMS...and that is an ENORMOUS amount of work to build and maintain...I speak from experience on that one.

NO UMBIES for BLOCKING THE WIND for the shooter...if you don't want the wind blowing...shoot indoors.

Now I SOUND LIKE THE PURISTS when they say "unmarked is what 3-D is all about...if you want marked distance, shoot field, don't I....

So, I am allowed my HARD CORE WILL NEVER CHANGE OPINION...and it is NO UMBIES on the shooting line to BLOCK THE WIND for the shooter! PERIOD...for ME, no discussion, case closed and don't even try to convince me otherwise.....just like SOME of the purists for Marked distance or rangefinder or marked distance on 3-D.

But PLEASE, IMHO, don't MARK THOSE DISTANCES on the stakes, and for 3-D shoots PLEASE do NOT put aiming dots on the animals...that would RUIN IT for the MAJORITY of the people...whether rangefinder or estimator.

field14


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## OneBowTie (Jun 14, 2002)

field, i appose using rangefinders, only because they will clog the system and take some of the shooters as much time to glass the target with the rangefinders as it does with unknown distances....than after they shoot the animal with the laser 5 times to be sure they trust the reading....the will have to put the laser down and use the bino's for another 5 minutes....

so just skip that and make it known yardage on a range...or class....

now for the umbie....you have your opinion, and i have mine....i am there to enjoy...have fun....and compete.....and if its a tad bit windy when i traveled 12 plus hours to shoot...why not let me get something to make my trip more enjoyable????? thats all....

however, i think we are still off track and missing the mark...why not just work on getting field archery in front of more shooters and regrow an already great game?????? i know i know little to nothing about field archery....but i know this much....it is fun and enjoyable (with the right group).....and i can honestly say, if the nationals affored me the chance to leave home on even wednesday evening and compete on thursday through sunday, in other words, a long weekend, id be there.....now answer me this, what would it take to get you to the nationals???????

shoot em high, and let em fly....


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## field14 (May 21, 2002)

What would it take to get me to the Nationals?

Are you talking the major 3-D events, or the NFAA event?

3-D...LESS TIME on the range and between individual shots, NO UMBIES permitted to block the wind (notice, I didn't say to screen people from the hot sun and/or rain), and STRICT and EVEN enforcement of the rules regardless of the division or "class" of the shooters...NO special treatment because so and so is shooting for money and that makes it somehow "different." Police the ranges and ENFORCE things, don't leave it up to the shooters to police themselves...just look at all the malarkey that is going on that people are talking about.

I honestly don't mind the stools thing...cuz I understand it. But doggone it, you don't GET ANYTHING to block the wind in any other venue of archery, and certainly NOT IN BOWHUNTING....I don't care...the wind is blowing, learn how to shoot in the wind and get used to it...it WILL happen. You STILL get your MAXIMUM time limit and no more...regardless of how many times you let down...make the time limit or take the ZERO.

So, that obviously brings up a HUGE B***H I have with the NFAA too...WHAT DIFFERENCE does it make if a shooter lets down twice or 5 times on a shot or target, AS LONG AS THE TIME LIMIT ISN'T exceeded...the NFAA has a TIME LIMIT AND a let down rule...HOW STUPID! Good grief, if you let down too many times you won't make the time limit.....DAH...So there is an NFAA BASH from the fieldman! I rarely let down anyways, and never have a problem with the time limit...but it is sheer STUPIDITY to have BOTH a time limit and a 'let down rule'...to FORCE people to take a bad shot just cuz he/she has let down 3 times already and now MUST SHOOT, even if it is punched.

As far as NFAA National Field event and my attendance...been there several times...but for ME, not often enough...especially in the past 9 years or so. REDDING...maybe one of these years soon I would make that trip...it really entices me a lot....However.....since 1998, I honestly haven't considered it due to numerous health issues....MINE and other family members...and WE come first, right?

THIS year, however...with fixed income, I have basically ONE SHOT...and a week at the NFAA Nationals as compared to the Wyoming National Bowhunt (which I haven't done in 36 years, since the second one in 1971) makes the National Bowhunt the PRIORITY...I don't think there are many out there that would pass up a MULE DEER BOWHUNT for one archery tournament? Last year I lost out due to SEVERE health considerations...by which...I almost lost my left leg over the deal....so THIS year is even more special to me....

And in years to follow.....well.. since I can go to the BOWHUNT every year and have a guaranteed license....we will have to see how THIS bowhunt goes this year and take it from there.

I will tell you again however...the fieldman is opposed to putting any aiming dots on those McKenzies or Rineharts for ANY tournaments...rangefinder or estimator. I'm opposed to writing the yardages on the stakes due to trying to force SEGREGATION of the two divisions...when we are trying to reduce workloads AND promote harmony...to mark the stakes and put "them" on a special course only underlines the segregation...we have enough of that already.

Simple with the rangefinders...ONE look with the rangefinder, ONE look PRIOR TO the shot with binocs, set site and shoot (and NO LOOKING AGAIN from the stake once the shooter has made the shot...get off the stake and move out of the way and THEN LOOK>

...and you have ONE MINUTE to do it...plain and simple...CUT BACK to ONE MINUTE per shooter across the board (IBO and ASA), rangefinder or not. 

Now daze, the rangefinders have higher power oculars in them....for example, mine has an 8X ocular in it, and I can see just fine with it for ONE 'Pop" of my laser to get the yardage...It will NOT take a full MINUTE to get the distance... again...make the rule and enforce it EVENLY across the board regardless of name, stature, division, good ole boy, big shot, cold duck, female, kid, youth, young adult...or even left-handers. hahahaha.

I really don't think I'm as hard a**ed as people think...but I certainly don't go along with BS and special treatment, and waiting all day to shoot one shot and then wait AGAIN for 20 or 25 minutes or more before I can shoot the next arrow...I just won't do that...and like you all keep saying...if you don't LIKE it...don't do it...so...I WILL NOT DO IT....

At least not on the "big shoot" level where the long waits and delays and umbies, and stools, and wasted time and energy are rampant....I'll stick to my local shoots and have a great time at them...getting done in 2 /12 to 3 hours MAX with my 40 shots...no umbies, few people lugging around enough gear for a camping trip...and enjoying the heck out of the "extra-curricular" activities and games we do to make things more fun...llike SCALP shooting, and 'Best estimator' game for a free lunch...and putting up $5 if so and so can robin hood the "victim's" arrow...

Oh, oh...I said SCALPING or SCALP shooting....OBT will be on this one like flies on stink.....OBT LOVES crispy ones...and this scalp shooting and 'best estimator' game means CRISPY ones.....HMMMMMMMM..

field14


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## Silver Dingo (May 27, 2003)

Its a bit of a catch 22 really field.when you aint there we dont need the umbys cos there aint no wind.  :shade:


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## field14 (May 21, 2002)

Silver Dingo...

How right you are, and IF I was there and anyone asked me to hold up an umbie for SUN or RAIN...I'd do it...but to BLOCK THE WIND....forget it. 

I won't ask for a "wind block" and won't GIVE a 'wind block' either...and if they would consider me a butthead...then that's fine...cuz they are BEVUS...hahahahaha.

No catch 22...but I was asked what it would take to get me to a National event, the question wasn't totally clear...so I answered for BOTH 3-D (IBO and ASA, I assumed) and for NFAA....

Not any BASHING of 3-D at all...same beefs I've always had...so I just stay away...but that still doesn't mean that I cannot and will not express my OPINION openly and vociferously! I can and I will call the kettle black, and call the BAD SIDES and the GOOD SIDES...either way.

field14


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## Silver Dingo (May 27, 2003)

Bloody Nora field. spit the thesauris out willya. I'm just a downunda dawg ya know. :shade:


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## field14 (May 21, 2002)

Well, back to "Fieldman Quigley" then...

I said that I had no USE for an UMBIE on any archery course....I didn't say I didn't know HOW TO USE an umbie."    :beer: :beer: :beer: :beer: 

And, you folks from "down under" are just fine blokes...I know most of us Yanks would shoot with or among you all anytime and enjoy every minute of it! At least I certainly would.....

field14


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## Silver Dingo (May 27, 2003)

would that be field or 3d.


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## OneBowTie (Jun 14, 2002)

ok field....i do understand about income, family, and priorites....

now, i was asking when are you going to go to the nfaa nationals...and i was wanting to see if you yourself said, you would love to go, but 10 days was too expensive and time consuming......

and bottom line field.....i look forward to shooting with you....and i would love to shoot reading or nationals sometime....you, pro1 and me on the same stake  .....i see myself collecting lots of crispies......


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## field14 (May 21, 2002)

:sad: I dont' think the fieldman ever DOUBLED the amount of time needed for the NFAA National Field tournament to TEN DAYS....you musta got that from somewhere else..... Maybe you were talking about the IFAA tournament in AUSTRALIA???? It would probably be AT LEAST a 10 day trip...for that "thunder down under."

The fieldman would sure like to go to Redding (would be first time for me) and also a NFAA National again....but I will say that Darrington is most likely out and sure wouldn't happen in the SAME YEAR to attend Redding AND Darrington.

Me and you on the same stake would be awesome, because between the two of us, we'd take ALL the crispy ones....cuz I'm the ruling director of the DWAC and head of the DWACRIC, and can make up 'rules' to ensure that the field is more level on my side than the other competitors' side, hahahahaha.

Pro1...to Redding or an NFAA Nationals....not likely...I've tried that one for YEARS...and he has yet to bite on the challenge...he wouldn't even bite on the challenge several years ago to go to Watkins Glen and compete in the NFAA Nationals AND the DWFAC along with myself and our "middle brother".....Of course, Pro1 would have gotten clobbered then, because I was at the top of my game, and won the DWFAC by the largest margin of victory in the history of the DWFAC....a whopping 186 points over the course of 5 days....

Nowdaze, he stands a wee bit better chance, but he cannot lay claims to the DWFAC...because ALL THREE of us must be in attendance for it to be official...so HE has the DWIAC buckle and I retain the DWFAC until such time as our middle brother chooses to take up shooting again....hehehehe.

Of course, I can't try for the DWIAC...for the same reasons as above...the middle brother won't shoot!

Silver Dingo...UMBIES and their use thereof for blocking the wind is on ANY ARCHERY venue..field, 3-D, IFAA, or ANY....Since windblocking is prohibited in NAA and FITA, it is a non-issue.

I won't use an umbie for wind blocking and won't supply anyone else or support anyone else using an umbie for wind blocking on the shooting line...Plain and simple. Guess they'll either get the others to do it, or figure out how to hold the umbie to block the wind with one hand or leg and shoot with the other...now THAT would be something to behold! :wink: :wink: 

field14


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## Silver Dingo (May 27, 2003)

fieldman the only thing you double is the time it takes to read a post.
are you gettin paid by the word or what.  :shade:


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## field14 (May 21, 2002)

Silver Dingo,

You just need to work on your READING skills and get your WORDS PER MINUTE up to snuff...hahahahaha.

Sorta like the 3-D purists working on getting the number of arrows they shoot per hour up to snuff....sitting at 3 to 5 arrows per hour just won't cut it....and that might be part of why so few of them attend field shoots...cuz they can't HANDLE more than 3 to 5 arrows per hour. 

Now THAT is supposed to be funny...but some "purists" will probably get their noses bent out of shape over it...but I just can't resist....

I wish I was getting paid for this....but unfortunately, only OBT gets paid...one way or the other...mostly with "crispy ones" from all the people he picks on...along with Spectre.

THere, this post is shorter...can you handle it?

field14 :tongue: :angel: :angel:


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## Silver Dingo (May 27, 2003)

no probs field. I got my idjacated sister to read it to me. :smile:


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## Ivorytooth (Jan 22, 2004)

field14 said:


> Silver Dingo,
> 
> You just need to work on your READING skills and get your WORDS PER MINUTE up to snuff...hahahahaha.
> 
> ...


Those chumps don't get the crispies....I do. 

When I shot my field, I shot 28 field and 14 animal in one day with 64lbs draw weight. Almost as many arrows as one of my practice sessions.  I call it an advantage over the average 3D'er. Shooting 20 a day is like taking a nap.   Quit telling them that shooting 20 a day is easy. I don't want them to get wise.   

Heck, even I took a stool to an ASA. I didn't get to use it, everyone laid their bow on theirs and sat on mine. Right Foggy?? 

I still love the game and won't complain about it though. Heck, if I can take all day to shoot 45 targets at Redding and love it, surely a little thing like umarked 3D ain't gonna phase this mutant. 

Got a 3D this weekend! 40 on Sat and how many I can get in on Sunday. Could be more than 40.


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## Deezlin (Feb 5, 2004)

Because field archery is reserved for archers with archery skills and not some sort of distance gussing game. If you want to shoot field archery and judge distance, don't look at the yardage!!!!!!!!!!


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## field14 (May 21, 2002)

Tooth,
Don't they shoot TWO arrows per target at Redding? That is 90 arrows for the day....ALMOST getting warmed up, but barely. Just a walk in the park for a shooter with true stamina, hahahahaha.

You uns can fix or sabotage your 3-D stool to stop 'em from sitting on YOURS and using theirs for a bow rack...just connect a remote cattle prod to it with a remote control and when their butt hits the seat...ZAP 'EM! All it would take is a modification of the doggie fence system they have out there..

Now THAT would be cool....a 3-Ders ZAP STOOL....use your OWN, or get ZAPPED. hehehehe.

field14


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## Ivorytooth (Jan 22, 2004)

field14 said:


> Tooth,
> Don't they shoot TWO arrows per target at Redding? That is 90 arrows for the day....ALMOST getting warmed up, but barely. Just a walk in the park for a shooter with true stamina, hahahahaha.
> 
> You uns can fix or sabotage your 3-D stool to stop 'em from sitting on YOURS and using theirs for a bow rack...just connect a remote cattle prod to it with a remote control and when their butt hits the seat...ZAP 'EM! All it would take is a modification of the doggie fence system they have out there..
> ...


The tough thing about shoots that take time like Redding or a 3D or field is keeping your head in the game. It isn't the amount of arrows shot. Hard for most to maintain that focus that long. Especially if they can't turn it on and off. If they can't turn it off, they start out good, but don't finish as good. It is too exhausting to leave the focus on all the time. That is why some don't seem to have fun at competitions. They can't turn it off and therefore it is all business all the time. It pays to learn how to flip the switch when the need for complete focus arrives. It really is a valuable mental tool to have.


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## 180 p&y (Jul 5, 2003)

man that guy can type! field do you like anything about archery? are you so inept at yardage estimation that you think the rest of us must be cheating in some way? i agree that a guy may be able to come up with some system to find distance using his scope of sight pin gap . . . . . so why aren't you doing it and winning all the money? oh yeah your too bored from waiting to shoot. . . . . . . at any rate your posts are worth a laugh at least


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## AKDoug (Aug 27, 2003)

> When I shot my field, I shot 28 field and 14 animal in one day


We shot a full field AND a full 28 target animal round on day one of our State shoot. Even my 8 y.o. made it through without a wimper.

I agree on the concentration thing. If you don't know how to carry on a conversation between targets, Field can be a LONG day.


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## field14 (May 21, 2002)

180,

Good that you laugh...cuz this is supposed to be fun, remember...and entertainment.

However, you are about 180 out of phase by trying to analyze my likes and dislikes...

I have never once stated I HATED 3-D...I probably have said many times I dislike the hypocrisy involved with many of the people that BASHED field for taking so long and turned right around and said that it is FINE for 3-D to take as long as it does for 36% the number of shots...

You people only read what you want to read into...and don't pay attention.

And like Ive said in the past...if you purists think for one second that the best 3-Ders out there are the GODS of 'guessing' yardage...and they put up that kind of money to compete, only to go out to GUESS...then you are blinder than one can ever imagine! PT just loves you to death.

I have never said they CHEAT...I"ve only said that they use everything they can to put the ball in their court as much as possible...they know the game and the games people play...but they are not some kind of "extra special super gifted idol" that some 3-Ders think that they are..they are just smarter than the average Joe and have learned their game well, and honed their skills.

So don't come on to me and tell ME what I like and dislike, and don't even think for a minute that I HATE any phase of this game...you don't spend 40 years at something to HATE it. Hate is way too strong of a word to use so loosely as you people use it....

But I'm noticing that a lot of the relative newbies on this forum use words like HATE, CHEAT, and BASH....for anything and everything that goes against their own LOVES or blind loyalties or advertising hype....they'll believe just about anything...and if they don't like what they read...they will twist the meaning so as to make it look like they are peachy clean.

But like most anything...if you look the gift horses in the mouths....the gifts dry up and then those seeking to learn receive NOTHING anymore....and loads of you people that are relatively new to this forum are STARING the gift horses in the mouths...

You continue to want something for NOTHING...and bite the hands that feed you as well as looking those horses in the mouths....

And, I will go onto which ever part of this forum I so choose...this is STILL a free country, I believe. If you don't like my posts...don't read them; it's one less click for you.



field14


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## Silver Dingo (May 27, 2003)

FF you will do as you are told or risk joining the ranks of the Bad posters. That is only one step away from being a mutant so tread lightly there buddy.  :shade:


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## field14 (May 21, 2002)

Nope, it is 'Anchors Aweigh" my Boys, or "a bull in a china closet"

I'm already a Bad Poster, or as Lou Costello used to say, "I'm a BAAAAADDDDDD Boy."

Who's on first? So SLOOOOOWWWWLY he turned, face to face.........

field14


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## rsw (May 22, 2002)

I see the silly old gapping comments again. Guys, it just isn't a viable 3D system although it works pretty well for the circular targets. I averaged something like 414 or a little more last year on the ASA tour (except for two tournaments where I was suffering with a bad eye infection - those scores were well down and just go further to prove my thesis about gapping - if I were a gapper, that infection would never have affected my scores one iota). None of those targets were estimated with any semblance of a gapping system (which by the way is nearly good enough to get one within a 5 yard range - not nearly good enough to give the 12 ring a run). 
The odd shape of 3D targets and their differential from one side to the other makes any possible kind of accurate gapping ridiculous. While I can estimate to something like 1-2 yards consistently, the top adult pros can cut that in half all day long. I will wager that across a 20 target course, 1/2 of them, carrying nothing other than a pencil and pad, could estimate the whole range with less than 15 yards in total error. A once upon a time test gave a reading far lower than that. I know I can do as well as 17 yards myself.

I won't say the eyes are as good as a laser rf, but they are very close and much more accurate than the split image rfs of old. When you claim we cheat by gapping, we just laugh at your lack of knowledge regarding the skill of our top shooters shooting the national tour events. I venture to say with complete confidence that any pro shooter that used gapping as his method, has never finished in the upper half of any national tournament field.

Using any system other than estimating skills (short of a rangefinder) would make it totally impossible for Danny, Jeff, etc to shoot the + scores they shoot each week. THESE GUYS ARE GOOD! Just give up this whining BS and give them the credit they deserve for being unbelievably skillful at their chosen profession or at least quit the baseless,crybaby whining I see over and over. That really is BS of unbelievable scope.


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## Archery Power (Feb 4, 2005)

I would rather the 3D shooters stay where they are and shoot 3D targets than for them to switch to Field Archery and screw up the Field Archery game. As soon as the 3D shooters come to shoot a Field Round they start out trying to change the Field game to suit their self so I think it would be a lot better for the 3D shooters to stay where they are and shoot unmarked yards Don't you.


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## field14 (May 21, 2002)

I disagree with the above post. If that attitude prevails it splits the orgs even further.

Personally, I think that perhaps if field were changed to half MARKED and half UNMARKED, but at ROUND targets like FITA FIELD, then the time taken for field rounds would speed up, and all the extra "cut Charts", palm pilots, clinometers, rangefinders and stuff being carried these days around a field course would become moot...since they cannot be used on an UNMARKED course!

Time field archery went back to FIELD archery instead of a computerized game that MOST people cannot handle since they cannot HOLD steady enough to KNOW FOR SURE if the clinometer and computer is helping or not.

Scores are NOT going up with the used of the handy dandy tools, but there has to be a limit to some of the paraphenalia allowed. They eliminated the use of spotting scopes soon after their use created problems after binoculars were put into use in the mid- 1970's....why....people ABUSED their use and started using them on every single shot and ruining it for everyone because of the TIME being used up for the nonsense.

Just my opinion...but there is room in this sport for BOTH...and if some 3-Ders come over to field or vice versa...good for the game.....but there are LIMITS to paraphenalia that are allowed for use on the courses......

field14


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## FS560 (May 22, 2002)

Field archery and 3D archery are BOTH precision games and if they take time to shoot, so what.

For years and years and years and years, every archery hack, non-shooter, has-been, never-was, club officer, snap-shooter, trigger-jerker, and his insane mother, ba$tard brother, and syphilitic sister have been trying to speed up the shooters in this precision game.

You want instant gratification so bad, go beat off somewhere.

I am so sick of the constant attack on the time to shoot a precision game that I just want to puke.


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## field14 (May 21, 2002)

But Jim,
when you won Vegas, the time limit was THREE MINUTES for the three shots per end....

And there was a time when it was FIVE minutes for a five arrow end on the NFAA round.....

And now, I hear that FITA is wanting to change to 90 seconds for three shots....?????


Yet, in 3-D, they give those folks TWO minutes for ONE shot?????

Precision or non-precision....they want it sped up, but then allow all the EXTRA junk on the shooting line...only to SLOW IT UP even more....

Talking out of both ends at the same time, IMHO.....

It would be fine if the scores were UP...but they aren't, in spite of the extra junk being used....but for a shooter not to even have a site tape on the site bar and completely trust the computer to do it for them?????????? What will they do if the computer fails....hold up the entire group for the repair period for the COMPUTER..when their bow isn't broken?

field14


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## FS560 (May 22, 2002)

Sounds like you are helping me make my case.

But Tom, why do you and so many others want to speed up the shooter? What is wrong with 2 minutes to shoot an arrow?


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## field14 (May 21, 2002)

Guess it comes from the hypcrosy involved from a few years back when the "converts" from field to 3-D used the EXCUSE that field shooting "took too long"....and that FOUR HOURS to 4 1/2 hours for 28 field targets was WAY TOO LONG.....

And NOW....look at where they are...TWO minutes for ONE shot isn't too long (all of a sudden), and 3 1/2 hours for 20 shots or 7 hours for 40 shots is now OK too?????

Just the hypocrites.....it was too long a few years back, but now it is perfectly OK...and even going beyond is OK too....and they were b**ching and complaining and bad mouthing field shooting for taking too long....and now it is LONGER in many cases to shoot 40 shots that what it takes to shoot 112?????

Fuel on the fire.

And now at Vegas, they want to speed it up MORE....cuz we "have other things to do"..... Seems contrary to me, doesn't it to you?

FITA wants 90 seconds for three shots regardless of conditions//////?????

contrary.... 90 meters at a 4.5 inch 10-ring....6 shots in three minutes?

c'mon....the hypocrisy is sure there.

field14


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## TWesley (Sep 14, 2002)

rsw said:


> When you claim we cheat by gapping, we just laugh at your lack of knowledge regarding the skill of our top shooters shooting the national tour events. I venture to say with complete confidence that any pro shooter that used gapping as his method, has never finished in the upper half of any national tournament field.
> QUOTE]
> 
> RSW,
> ...


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## field14 (May 21, 2002)

And some lay claim that their "eyes alone" are as good or better than a laser rangefinder, since most rangefinders are accurate to within 1/2 yard...and these "persons" claim that they can continually "guess" or "judge" yardage as well or better than that!

Yes, and PT Barnum is rolling in laughter, too.

Then, when the idea of a rangefinder division is brought up....the "guessers" that are accurate to better than 1/2 yard want no part of it...yet, according to some of them, the people with the rangefinders would STILL be at a disadvantage anyways.....

fuel on the fire.

I say "bring it on"....rangefinder division cometes amongst themselves, and guessers do their thing....only restriction is that guessers and rangefinders are NOT mixed in the same group of shooters on the courses.

NO NEED for a separate course either....

field14
field14


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## rsw (May 22, 2002)

Troy:

I was not a 3D shooter in the earlier years and frankly don't have any knowledge of the incident you reference. However, in years past, many people used methods no longer legal to judge yardage, and today, many of the years' past heroes are no longer on tour; however, to dispute the misguided claims of non-believers (one of who inaccurately continues to decry the alleged rampant gapping by today's champions) several of our contemporary pros were sent out on the range with only pen/pencil in hand. The average error per target on the range was less than one yard for four of the five testers. It is a fact that "apparent size" is a major factor in yardage estimation and perhaps this same principle could apply to the image seen in the sight. For our better shooters (winners), though, that would not apply as they know the yardage before ever drawing the bow.

3D shooters today have mastered yardage estimation so well that gapping, in comparison, is absolutely inaccurate in comparison, even with some highly engineered device short of electronics. Certainly, with a lot of (wasted) time in practice and experimentation, gapping with sight sytems could perhaps produce an accuracy factor of 4-5 yards on 3D animals. It is certainly more accurate with the rounded field faces used in FITA competition, but the fluctuations in animal target color, displacement, angles, relative elevation, lean, partial obscuration, etc make it very inaccurate for 3D usage and the ability to simply memorize some sort of system to cover the innumerable target arrays in 3D competition make it even more likely to cause error rather than enhance accuracy.

Field: modern 3D shooters' eyes (at the top echelon) (as proven by the above mentioned test) rival the laser rangefinder for accuracy. By the way, only a few lasers have a 1/2 yard accuracy factor. Inherent ranging errors in the laser are a major factor in this comparison - for example, a laser will read with some error factor on all 3D targets, darker targets, or targets set in a darkened environment. Most rangefinders have a plus/minus factor of 1 yard inherent which is the same as for the tested shooters above and compared with the other error factors in laser rangefinders, it is almost possible to state with fact that eyes can be more accurate. As I previously stated, for me personally, when I am practicing hard over time and I am on my game, I can match my Nikon 400 on something around 14-16 of 20 targets (my accuracy factor begins to deteriorate at about 42 yards). Compare this to the top young pros and you should understand what I meant by my earlier statement which was based upon somewhat scientific, factual data.

I know you don't believe this; however, there are a lot of other things you don't seem to believe about 3D archery and about which you are incorrect. Your experience is based upon local shoots and has no comparison to what is happening at the national level of events. I find few, if any, of your complaints are valid at our local 3D shoots either.

There is absolutely no favoritism for the 3D pros in ASA competition (except for my VIP parking pass). We are "on the clock" and chastised for violations and warned regarding possible dq. We are speed tested and had more than a few dqs for violations.

There is not a 2 minute limit for all shooters. Only the first shooter has a 2 minute limit.

3 1/2 hours is a long time on the range. We usually finish faster than that and if we don't, we are dq'd.

Stools and umbies do not slow down any part of the shooting. I don't understand your complaints in this issue. They do make shooting a lot more pleasurable. I don't personally carry, nor use, an umbrella for anything other than a potential rainstorm. By the way, there were a lot of stools at the NFAA Nationals this year. The advantages of stools are catching on with the field crew as well now. You should give one a try. A stool beats a quiver every time.

I also don't get your argument about umbies and the wind. Sun, wind, rain, snow, etc are all part of our natural environment. If you refused to hold the umbie for the wind for me, then I would refuse to shade the sun from your sight or peep - exactly the same issue in my mind. It is all or none in this issue, for me. Just like you, I am an old time wind shooter with all the smarts, but less skill nowadays. I don't have any problem with this issue on either side; however, as it stands today, if you refuse to use the umbie, you lose. Your competition is doing so and my pride isn't so strong as to lose the advantage over this (to me ridiculous) principle. Rules, or the lack thereof, should be utilized to your legal advantage, not disadvantage.


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## field14 (May 21, 2002)

RSW,
I think that you and I are nearly in agreement for a change....

You have stated that the Pros KNOW the distance when they set their sites....EXACTLY what I have been preaching for years concerning 3-D; those guys are NOT out there "guessing"....they KNOW what they are doing....they are NOT gods or something superhuman....afterall....like many "normal joes" are led to belive.

You have also supported something....in your comments, you stated that the Pros can accurately judged to within 1/2 yard and that is BETTER than the capabilities of most rangefinders (my particular Models (yes PLURAL) are BOTH accurate to within 1/2 yard, and one of them even compensates for the uphill or downhill). Since they are BETTER than a rangefinder at judging distances.....

Then WHY NOT have rangefinder Pros shoot right along with the "estimators"....since the "estimators" already have a 1/2 yard ADVANTAGE anyways...if the "estimators" are as good as you claim, then there shouldn't be any PROBLEM with the "estimators" and the "rangefinders" shooting alonside of each other in direct competition...the "estimators", afterall have an ADVANTAGE...and that is right up their alley.

If the human eye has suddenly evolved to be that accurate with our depth perception, then the next generation should become something phenomenal....

Lastly, I would believe, because you said it yourself....that IF the animals used were suddenly to become a MIXTURE of all the brands of 3-d animals out there, without any rhyme to reason WHICH type of animal was coming up next...that they supposed "experts" that can "judge" yardages to within 1/2 yard wouldn't be able to do this...

BEcause you said it yourself...they have PERFECTED the relative size aspect of ONLY the set of animals that are currently in use....give them something of a different size or dimension...and suddenly the matrix has CHANGED, and bye bye this utter perfection...

But we both know that the MIXTURE of several brands of animals on the courses won't happen...that would really rock the boat, but certainly would throw a wrench into things.

So, putting two and two together...it still comes down to the ADVANTAGES of many of the big guns come from the TIME and dedication (absolutely no doubt about this one), the TALENT (no doubt here, either), and the ABILITY to own and practice on a complete set of 3-D animals day in and day out, from all angles and distances. Now it makes plenty of sense that when a NEW ANIMAL comes out, they purchase it, measure it all up, and practice on this one and the others until they have that "relative size" and appearance you speak of mastered. They have the BUCKS and the TIME....the normal Joe will never get there.

As far as umbies to BLOCK THE WIND...THAT, IMHO is still a bunch of absolute hogwash...shoot in the wind, and there is no excuse for BLOCKING IT for the shooter's bowarm. That's just the way I am....and IF we ever shot together, I wouldn't hold the UMBIE to BLOCK the wind, but would hold it for you to BLOCK THE GLARE...reason being, that in the WIND, you can still see the target....with the GLARE, however, there are times when you cannot SEE the target...at which point, you cannot HIT what you cannot SEE. WIND however, doesn't restrict VISION; therefore blocking the wind with umbies, IMHO is UNETHICAL for archery competitions.

Stools...I don't blame you....3 1/2 hours or more for 20 shots...a person needs to sit down; no problem. Now with them allowing every conceivable contraption on a field course that has lengthened the 28 targets to upwards of SIX hours or more....IF I went to a major competition, I MIGHT even consider a stool too...since I'd be standing for nearly DOUBLE of what was spent only a few short years ago.

Funny part...SCORES haven't gone up hardly at all...shooters today just want to BUY their scores and not WORK for them...except the dedicated few that spend the time to perfect FORM AND know how to shoot and read a target....and then MAYBE they use their paraphenalia to confirm what their EXPERIENCE is telling them...but THEY can hold steady enough to shoot the shot and get the results....MOST other shooters don't have the FORM or the EXPERIENCE to know if the miss was THEM or their "aid" gave them bad information. Afterall the computer site setting is only as good as the person feeding it into the computer.....baloney in and baloney back out the other end.

You are correct about the two minutes and ONE minute rule....for ASA.

However, I believe that in IBO, ALL shooters have two minutes...thus it doesn't surprise me one bit that IBO shoots take forever to complete a 10 shot course.....Two minutes for ONE shot....egads.

Enjoy your hunting season, and good luck if you go out after the wiley bull elk.

field14


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## rsw (May 22, 2002)

I made the annual elk trek already, up on the WY border by Wood's Landing. Didn't take a shot as I am searching only for the record bull - not many left in CO outside of our three trophy areas which take 12 points or more to draw now. Saw lots of moose, but no tag.

It is a fact that the "top" 7 or 8 3D shooters would fare quite well with the rangefinder class and probably win most times. The difference would probably hinge on the one or two targets that the "estimators" will misjudge on a 20 target round. Yes, even the top shots shoot an 8 or two sometimes. That certainly would not be the case for most of the amateur classes though, I suspect. As you know, one must still make the shot and it ain't easy without a dot to aim at.

Because of proprietary interests, we never will see a mixture of targets on the ranges; however, this year ASA has added 10 more targets to the mix so that will change the matrix at little bit, perhaps.

I don't shoot IBO so I don't know anything about their rules. It is a fact that it takes longer to shoot their rounds though, but I think it also has to do with fewer ranges for the shooters and lousy shooting conditions.

Reference the stool: I don't use mine to sit on (and most don't) - it just makes a much better quiver than one hanging on my hip. It simply is a pickup-set down (highly improved) quiver and it certainly doesn't slow down the shooting process any.

I can't agree with your umbrella position. All natural elements have viable options other than shading or blocking. One is just the same as another. If you wish to be hard-headed about it, then you only handicap yourself and fall into the second tier of competitors. Personally, I don't have a position on the issue - I can see, and agree to, either side of the argument.

Hope you enjoy the Mule Deer Hunt this year.


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