# Measuring holding weight



## Ozzy (Aug 6, 2003)

From my experience, pulling into the wall , particularly with the variance of bows featuring stops either on the limb or the cable , is such an individual thing.
I use a Stan Black Pearl hinge, shoot an OK Absolute & like to pull rather firm into the limbstops, hence I'm holding far more than the 50 # set 70% bow letoff, so more than 20#, which is more than others with less letoff. 
The only true measure is to anchor, weigh at the holding weight with hand-held scales (Easton etc. )

Good question :thumbs_up


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## ron w (Jan 5, 2013)

you can do it that way if you like, but the reality is that when you are shooting and on the stops, you aren't thinking about how much extra holding weight you developing. I think it's better to just set up the holding weight you desire and learn to just stay on the stops with a decent amount of pull and run the execution, not thinking about how much your holding weight is increasing. 
learning to "not come off the stops",..... is far more important to the shot, than learning to pull "just so much, to get to my desired holding weight".


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## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

Below I am going to put two of my articles on back tension preload and creep tuning, they will give you a look into how you can go about this area of your shot.


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## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

Back Tension, PRELOAD:
Well Well Well, this is something that has been a long time coming for me but in the last 6 months has been a wonderful addition to my shooting that I believe has boosted my shooting to a slightly higher level than before. It all started about a year and a half ago at my buddy Rick’s house shooting his 3d range, he stopped me after a shot and said “Did you know that you are creeping forward every shot”. Hell no I didn’t know that I was creeping forward every shot and for the next month or so it really bothered me because I could feel it wanting to happen all the stinking time and I battled mentally to keep from doing it. My bow was creep tuned really good so the creeping forward wasn’t causing the arrow to hit funny on the target but deep down inside I knew that this was something I needed to address sooner or later.
So let's skip forward a few month into the indoor season this early winter and one day for some reason I checked my bow and my draw length was almost a half inch long and I didn’t even know it so i twisted up my string and reset the draw length and on my bow I have a option of moving the draw stops from 75% to 65% let off so I went ahead and thought you know i have shot this bow for over 4 years now I guess it wouldn’t hurt to try them in the 65% setting. All this does is shortens the valley to basically no valley right on the edge of ripping your arm right out of your shoulder if you creep at all and to do so it shortens the draw length by about a 1/8 inch.
Well I had twisted my string back to my normal draw length before moving the draw stops to the 65% setting so moving them basically shortened the draw length just enough that I felt something that I had never felt before. PRELOAD.
What I have learned since then is that I was a guy that was coming to anchor and sitting in the valley and just touching the wall and I was doing so so lightly that if I left the wall during the shot execution I didn’t even feel it happening. So especially if I was shooting my hinge with any form of yielding where you allow the hand to stretch I was totally creeping forward and had no idea that it was happening. Secondly if I was shooting with some form of pulling into the wall I was so light against the wall that when I began that effort that sometimes i would do quite a bit of effort and not even be to the wall before the shot fired so I must have been just sitting in the valley not really against the wall at all.
So, by accident I have lucked out and set my draw length and then I moved my draw pegs to the 65% let off setting and this has given me a draw length setting that seems to be too short. Well, it wasn’t to short. Actually it was the first time ever that my draw length was spot on perfect. With this draw length I come to anchor and am touching the wall and my body still has a little left in the tank so as I settle in on the spot and my pin is moving the last few inches towards the spot I add a little back tension to the wall and my body ever so slightly pulls me into the wall. This is so so so so so important to realize that I am no longer just sitting in the valley and touching the wall, I am now inside the wall.
Now I have no idea how much inside the wall I am but mentally I like to think that it is about a 1/8 inch inside the wall but again that is totally a fictional number that I am making up. I guess a guy could put a mark on his arrow in a draw board when the cables are barely touching the draw stops and then come to full draw and add his back tension preload and have someone see for real how much they are pulling into the wall but I have never done this to actually see the truth.
I do not fire my hinge with back tension, i use a firing engine that creates rotation and that firing engine starts after the preload has already been applied to my system so the preload is basically that last little bit of lining up your rear arm with the arrow so that it is in a perfectly straight line so this is where setting your draw length perfectly is so important so that the wall happens just before your rear arm is perfectly straight in line with the arrow.
I will say that this is a totally different sensation from just pulling straight back into the wall with your hand and release and I absolutely do not recommend that you do so, it is also not a violent or overpowering sensation. Back tension preload is something that you feel and it is solid but it is not excessive and to me it is what top shooters are feeling when they have their bow draw length set perfectly, top shooters have this draw length written down and they know what it is for a reason and they may not be a coach that can give you the reasons why it is so important but they just know that that draw length is the one that produces really freaking good feel and shooting so they use it.
This is something that i have only written about a very few times so it is still in development and I am really interested in hearing from people that have perfected it to chime in so that in the future I can produce an article that I consider solid and add it to my website because right now I don’t feel I am ready. All I know is that it is something that has really helped me achieve a even better execution and feel during my shooting and it is well worth my time to master it and gain the ability to give it to other shooters.


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## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

Creep Tuning:
Creep tuning is something that I read about just like many of the tuning processes out there and I just never really thought that it was that big a deal so I just swept it under the rug as something to avoid. Then last year I went to a indoor league night and Sam Wolthuis was there shooting a new pro comp xl, he shot a 300 60x with it that night and after the scoring round I was shooting with him and he said I have got to creep tune this thing because the strings are broke in and it is ready. In the next 10 minutes I watched a pro shooter creep tune a bow by hand shooting at a vegas target and it was something special, I went home that night so inspired to get my bow creep tuned and with my new knowledge I was ready to take the plunge. I went over to my bow shop not knowing what to expect when I stuck my bow in the hooter shooter and really deep down inside I was skeptical to say the least. I shot a few minutes and got my bow to hit the same hole every time and then I was ready so I came to full draw and touched the draw stops and then cranked the crank an extra click and put more pressure into the draw stops than normal and shot the shot and the arrow hit about a inch low. I did this a few times and each time it hit the same hole an inch low, so then I came to full draw and stopped one click short of touching the draw stops and shot the shot and the arrow hit almost a inch high of the original hole. So at this point I could see the problem because during a scoring round if I am having trouble firing my hinge or get nervous and pull into the wall or creep even though my float stayed good I would sometimes miss high or low. In the next 10 minutes I did the following creep tuning session and in the end my arrow hit the same hole regardless of being hard into the wall or in the valley creeped forward or perfect on the wall. My bow had been “CREEP TUNED”.
Enjoy:

CREEP TUNING BY HAND METHOD:
1. When shooting by hand I use a horizontal piece of black tape about a foot long on the target and I shoot at it and move my sight until I am hitting it dead on. This is done with your normal shooting feel on the wall.
2. By hand you want to shoot many arrows pulling into the wall hard and see a pattern of hitting low and then come to full draw and get to anchor in your perfect position and then creep forward a little and fire the bow and it will hit high. This takes a few shots and this is why I like using a horizontal piece of black tape because you can shoot 5 arrows at a time along the black tape and see the pattern really easily.
3. Now go to the bow press and put a half twist in the cable that is going to force the top cam to hit first, I do one half twist at a time and then go back and shoot the bow hard into the wall and crept forward and see the results.
4. Come back to the press now and add another half twist and go back and shoot hard into the wall and crept forward and see the results.
5. Sooner or later you will hit the horizontal piece of tape weather you are creeping or pulling into the wall and are done.
At this time you are creep tuned and ready to go smoke some x’s, in the year since I started creep tuning I have thought about it many times trying to understand why it works because it is real and not a myth.


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## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

I left out the Hooter shooter method for creep tuning so if you have access to one and want that just pm me.


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

ron w said:


> you can do it that way if you like, but the reality is that when you are shooting and on the stops, you aren't thinking about how much extra holding weight you developing. I think it's better to just set up the holding weight you desire and learn to just stay on the stops with a decent amount of pull and run the execution, not thinking about how much your holding weight is increasing.
> learning to "not come off the stops",..... is far more important to the shot, than learning to pull "just so much, to get to my desired holding weight".


About as well said as can be said...
.
I am not of the you gotta have X holding weight. In fact, none of my bows have ever had less than 75%. Since the summer of 2010 all my bows have had 80 and 85% let off. All my bows since 2010 have had limb stops. I get into the wall. Said by many, accuracy comes from being on the wall.
My present target bow has 80% let off, 11 pounds if by math, but on the wall I know I have more and perhaps up to 18 pounds.

There is a "fine line" of being on the wall and pulling too hard into the wall, especially with limb stops, positive stops. Pull too hard and you will develop the shakes or disrupt your perfected shot.


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## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

Yeah, I never really did shoot very well pulling into the wall. During that portion of my shooting I was primarily a valley sitter and once I started pulling in the wall it would mess with my float pattern and make it wiggly and pull the pin off the target. 

That is why I like to set my amount of pre load into the wall just after anchoring and I am settling into the target so that it is done and I can then just maintain that back tension in my shot and be more consistent during my execution. When I was a valley sitter and I began to execute it felt like the tension was increasing during the execution and it was so easy to add to much or to little and the mental effort to gauge it was way to hard, when you add your preset amount of pre load before you start your shot it is very easy to maintain.

I don't use a lot of it, I experimented with lots of pre load and moderate amounts and I ended up picking the one that offered me the best pin float and hold on the target.


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## ron w (Jan 5, 2013)

most of us older guys that shot bows with round wheels and their mushy walls, learned to use a hinge by where we anchor, more than by being on any stops, ...because "stops", didn't really exist back then, unless you put some "wall bangers" (remember those ?) on your cables. hence, most of us are used to not trying to pull our bow apart and have an understanding for the idea that, not coming off the stops is more important to the shot, than pulling enough to reach some conceptual amount of preload, when on the stops. it really doesn't matter which you do, as long as which ever you do, you do consistently. depending on the bow's wall, variations in preload can affect POI, as a result of creep, if the wall isn't really firm. it's the whole idea of why bows have developed to the point of having walls that are solid,.... with no give what-so-ever. in that condition, it doesn't matter how hard or how soft, you are one the back end, the bow shoots pretty much the same , either way,.....a desireable feature, given that the cams are timed well.....obviously the reason for creep tuning.


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## Mahly (Dec 18, 2002)

I personally would not be chasing a number when looking at holding weight. I would experiment with more/less until you got your best float.
I have probably trained myself to use the wall to get just the right amount of preload to steady my float, simply because the bows I have (and could afford) all had a bit more let-off than would likely be ideal.
Here, draw length is a critical factor to set on the bow, along with a very repeatable anchor for the shooter.
If your looking for a way to weight it for experimentation sake, just record your lowest number in the valley and add or subtract from that to track what works for you. Doesn't really matter if that number is higher or lower than you might want to see it's just a reference point.
Don't get caught up trying to hit some magic number for holding weight. Your consistent form and the changes you make to the DL on your bow will tell you what works best.

If you need to see your holding weight, there are some handheld scales that will work, but again, it's all up to you and your anchor to determine how much pull weight your putting on the stops.


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## ron w (Jan 5, 2013)

yup, holding weight is pretty much an insignificant element. it is going to be what it is, at the draw length you need to be at. small adjustments to draw length, change the rotation of the 
cam(s), ever so slightly and in turn, changes the holding weight ever so slightly, as well. looking for some specific holding weight, negates the potential to establish a much more important element in how well you shoot and how well you run your release execution.....that of the draw length that works for you the best.


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## RCR_III (Mar 19, 2011)

This is about as far from the truth as there could be regarding holding weight. I can take my Hoyt and change the holding weight all I want with cables and the string and still also get the draw length I need. 

And as far as it being insignificant. You will find a weight you hold at that is better than another. If you find you have to pull harder in the stops and elongate your draw length too much to get the steadier hold from the added holding weight, up the weight off the scale number you have. If it's the opposite effect, lower the weight you see on the scale until you find the right set up. 

The amount of weight you hold at full draw, and that pressure pulling against you, is what forces your body to maintain good alignment and also makes you steadier. There's multiple pros that will talk about using thicker cables to achieve a certain holding weight. Or adjusting the cams differently to achieve a certain holding weight. They realize the importance of it.


ron w said:


> yup, holding weight is pretty much an insignificant element. it is going to be what it is, at the draw length you need to be at. small adjustments to draw length, change the rotation of the
> cam(s), ever so slightly and in turn, changes the holding weight ever so slightly, as well. looking for some specific holding weight, negates the potential to establish a much more important element in how well you shoot and how well you run your release execution.....that of the draw length that works for you the best.


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## ron w (Jan 5, 2013)

i'm aware of all ways you "can" achieve a holding weight with any bow there is, that is tailored to you liking. the average guy isn't going to go through all that, to change holding weight a pound or two. he isn't going to be concerned about his holding weight being 18 lbs. or 19 lbs. the vast majority the readers here, are not pros, much less the level of pros that have stuff handed to them on a silver platter and an do whatever it takes to get their bows exactly like they want them. how many of those shooters do you think there are, in comparison to how many shooters that are reading these posts and shoot a bow, or "shoot in a Wednesday night spot league" ?.


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## RCR_III (Mar 19, 2011)

I think the op asked a question and I have him an answer. Maybe he's one of the ones that would value from doing that. 

You saying it's trivial and unneeded or useless isn't helpful. It's deterrent. And that's not what this is about.


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## TRUE HUNT (Nov 8, 2006)

tagged for me


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## enderson (Apr 21, 2015)

Excellent info, thank you all for the responses.


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

RCR_III said:


> I think the op asked a question and I have him an answer. Maybe he's one of the ones that would value from doing that.
> 
> You saying it's trivial and unneeded or useless isn't helpful. It's deterrent. And that's not what this is about.


Where did ron say this? Insignificant, yes, to other factors.... I'd rather have draw length and on the wall than worry over some let off number. 

His question was where all of us should have adhered to; "For those experienced with fine tuning holding weight, do you factor in a few extra pounds for when pulling into the stops? Like if you want 20lbs holding, tune the bow for ~18lbs and get the few extra pounds from pressure against the wall?"
The answer should have been; "Yes, holding to the wall does add to holding weight." 

Pretty sure it was posted in this form; A graph showing draw weight, holding weight and some average that gave of the additional holding weight from being on the wall. All of us different, the wall weight would vary....


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## Flashclimber (May 3, 2013)

Tag


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## RCR_III (Mar 19, 2011)

SonnyThomas said:


> Where did ron say this? Insignificant, yes, to other factors.... I'd rather have draw length and on the wall than worry over some let off number.
> 
> His question was where all of us should have adhered to; "For those experienced with fine tuning holding weight, do you factor in a few extra pounds for when pulling into the stops? Like if you want 20lbs holding, tune the bow for ~18lbs and get the few extra pounds from pressure against the wall?"
> The answer should have been; "Yes, holding to the wall does add to holding weight."
> ...


I didn't have time to go back to find the exact words he said. Basically it was a negative connotation.


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## N7709K (Dec 17, 2008)

i tune holding weight for what i prefer at full draw; anything above what i tune to is added during the expansion portion of the shot process...


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

ron w said:


> yup, holding weight is pretty much an insignificant element. it is going to be what it is, at the draw length you need to be at. small adjustments to draw length, change the rotation of the
> cam(s), ever so slightly and in turn, changes the holding weight ever so slightly, as well. looking for some specific holding weight, negates the potential to establish a much more important element in how well you shoot and how well you run your release execution.....that of the draw length that works for you the best.





RCR_III said:


> I didn't have time to go back to find the exact words he said. Basically it was a negative connotation.


Your story, stick with it....


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

N7709K said:


> i tune holding weight for what i prefer at full draw; anything above what i tune to is added during the expansion portion of the shot process...


I can agree with this....


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## ron w (Jan 5, 2013)

i'm willing to bet that if we did a pole, on this forum about the prospect of people going to the extent of tailoring serving diameters, to change holding weight by a pound or two, there would be a unanimous consensus, that it isn't worth the trouble.
what do you think ?. 
a pound of two of holding weight is insignificant to the aspect of it's effect on the shot and execution, in respect to the effect on a shot and execution, of a perfect draw length.


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## RCR_III (Mar 19, 2011)

I'm willing to bet on this site if you did a pole, most people on here don't go past paper tuning. So, to that point, it isn't about helping the majority on a subject as this. It's about helping that 1%. Afterall, this is the intermediate and advanced forum. This is where there will be a portion of that 1%. Just like in anything, if you're willing to put in the work and able to see/feel the difference, then do it. If not, then don't. If you feel for you the change in holding weight is insignificant, then don't do it. But don't come on here and explain yourself as this is a rule and if you don't abide by it you're stupid or incorrect or wasting time. Others aren't you and they will perceive things differently in a real world application. I see the difference and value. But I'm also hypersensitive to a lot of things and I gain benefits from a lot of different avenues most others won't. For example, I have to have my socks twisted slightly clockwise, or otherwise the seam on the pinkie toe drives me insane. Same for shooting my bow. I can feel and see a difference in one pound of holding weight. I can see and feel a difference in one ounce of weight difference on my bars. I can see and feel a difference with my release set a micro amount slower or faster. Heck I can tell when my draw length or loop is off an 1/8 of an inch. It's just who I am. It's a blessing and a curse all at once.


ron w said:


> i'm willing to bet that if we did a pole, on this forum about the prospect of people going to the extent of tailoring serving diameters, to change holding weight by a pound or two, there would be a unanimous consensus, that it isn't worth the trouble.
> what do you think ?.
> a pound of two of holding weight is insignificant to the aspect of it's effect on the shot and execution, in respect to the effect on a shot and execution, of a perfect draw length.


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

The other part....Give what you know. Don't tear into or belittle someone. And simplicity works. If one is beyond a stage of proficiency then expand the subject. The Poster replied once since posting. For all I know he read or was told X is better....


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## dmacey (Mar 27, 2015)

ron w said:


> i'm willing to bet that if we did a pole, on this forum about the prospect of people going to the extent of tailoring serving diameters, to change holding weight by a pound or two, there would be a unanimous consensus, that it isn't worth the trouble.
> what do you think ?.
> a pound of two of holding weight is insignificant to the aspect of it's effect on the shot and execution, in respect to the effect on a shot and execution, of a perfect draw length.


I shoot with a resistance release so all my compound bows have exactly the same holding weight at release time. So I actually vary my holding weight, when needed or desired, with an allen wrench and not doing anything to the bow . 
All that said, though, I have found the following:
- higher holding weights in general are a little more forgiving of mistakes on the back end.
- a lower spread between the weight in the valley and the poundage setting of the release seems to give a slightly cleaner shot (not sure why)
- a higher spread here increases a reliance on a good creep tune. Again, I'm not sure why, though I think the further out of creep tune the bow is, the more critical it is that the shot go off at exactly the right poundage.

So in the poll, I would say holding weight sorta matters, but that's my bias because of the type of release aid I use. If I shot something else, I think it might not make that much of a difference.

DM


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## Mahly (Dec 18, 2002)

Holding weight of course matters.
What the exact number is does not (save for repeatability when making changes to the bow/s).


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## ron w (Jan 5, 2013)

Mahly said:


> Holding weight of course matters.
> What the exact number is does not (save for repeatability when making changes to the bow/s).


 exactly.


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## montigre (Oct 13, 2008)

ron w said:


> i'm willing to bet that if we did a pole, on this forum about the prospect of people going to the extent of tailoring serving diameters, to change holding weight by a pound or two, there would be a unanimous consensus, that it isn't worth the trouble.
> what do you think ?. a pound of two of holding weight is insignificant to the aspect of it's effect on the shot and execution, in respect to the effect on a shot and execution, of a perfect draw length.


Depends on the bow and the amount of time the shooter is willing to put into setting it up for their needs/preferences. 

I shoot best when I can achieve a bow holding weight between 16-18# since I am a lower draw weight hinge shooter--Like Jacob, I add to this holding weight, if needed by drawing harder/more aggressively into the stops during the expansion. However, one of my current bows with factory 75% letoff forced me to play the standard cable tuning tricks to get it as close to that range as possible which also included tailoring strand counts and serving diameter on my custom string set. I was able to get the holding weight down to around 67% which was then workable and that bow (the AE in my signature) is now a very nice shooter. If I shot 55# draw weight, I probably would be much less interested in my starting holding weight.

I also agree that the majority of people reading these posts will not put in this type of effort to customize their set up...that is okay, but it is also not a reason to discount the content of the thread because of it. Some, may benefit by discovering there are many ways to customize their equipment to their style of shooting.


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## enderson (Apr 21, 2015)

Same here, I can definitely feel the difference between 1lb of holding weight, 1oz stabilizer weight and 1/8th DL. The delicate balance of having enough holding weight to maintain strong form, not creep, hold steadier and a forgiving release. My Hoyt Podium with spirals at 60lbs and 22lbs holding just brushing the stops became a battle not worth fighting. Just to hold against the wall is probably 3-4lbs additional bringing it up to ~26lbs holding. Can I shoot it? sure. But not near as well as a few pounds less combined holding weight.



RCR_III said:


> I'm willing to bet on this site if you did a pole, most people on here don't go past paper tuning. So, to that point, it isn't about helping the majority on a subject as this. It's about helping that 1%. Afterall, this is the intermediate and advanced forum. This is where there will be a portion of that 1%. Just like in anything, if you're willing to put in the work and able to see/feel the difference, then do it. If not, then don't. If you feel for you the change in holding weight is insignificant, then don't do it. But don't come on here and explain yourself as this is a rule and if you don't abide by it you're stupid or incorrect or wasting time. Others aren't you and they will perceive things differently in a real world application. I see the difference and value. But I'm also hypersensitive to a lot of things and I gain benefits from a lot of different avenues most others won't. For example, I have to have my socks twisted slightly clockwise, or otherwise the seam on the pinkie toe drives me insane. Same for shooting my bow. I can feel and see a difference in one pound of holding weight. I can see and feel a difference in one ounce of weight difference on my bars. I can see and feel a difference with my release set a micro amount slower or faster. Heck I can tell when my draw length or loop is off an 1/8 of an inch. It's just who I am. It's a blessing and a curse all at once.


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## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

I became a strong shooter totally ignoring all of this stuff, I simply set my bow in the 29 inch mod setting and tuned the arrow flight and started shooting. Even when I shot a bow for over a year of heavy shooting I never checked the draw length knowing that it had stretched. I simply ignored this aspect of shooting. In fact I shot my highest two vegas rounds a 300 29x and 28x with a draw length of 29.5 because my strings had stretched that much but as I have learned in the past just because you have a little success doing something wrong doesn't mean that you should continue doing it. 

Luckily that week I compared my indoor bow to my 3d bow and saw the big difference in the draw lengths and that is when I made the appropriate changes and got things set up properly.

One thing I would suggest to you guys is to really consider the difference between sitting next to the wall and then pulling into the wall using either back tension or just pulling straight back etc, in all of my shooting this always resulted in the pin getting pulled off the target or a funny looking pin float. The moment that I learned to come to anchor and then add a preset amount of load into the wall before even taking my finger off the thumb peg with a hinge or before putting my finger on the trigger of a thumb trigger I instantly cured about 5 different little things on my checklist of things to overcome. 

It was by far the most important lesson that I learned in the last year and it is very rarely ever discussed, people discuss having proper draw length all the time but they don't go any farther than looking at a shooting form picture to make that decision. What I am talking about looks the same weather you are doing it or not, you will not be able to tell when looking at me if I have added the preload to the wall or if I am just sitting in the valley touching the wall.

With the old bows without draw stops the wall was very soft and expandable, I shoot a bowtech with draw stops on the cables so it has a little amount of give where the limb stop bows have little to no give in them. So with each system you can find a good draw length setting that allows you to have a nice amount of preload and allow yourself to benefit from it. I have since learning how to use it set up two different string sets on my personal bows and I have each time found is very easy to spend 30 to 45 minutes working with the draw length and getting a nice setting where i can have the right amount of preload.

I think that now that I have done it three times and I have a specific draw length setting marked on my draw board I can now get to that in a very few minutes and not commit a half hour but spending that half hour is a very small commitment when you can get rid of issues that have plagued your shooting and shrink your float and smooth out your execution etc.


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## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

Here is my tree stand analogy, you are out hunting and the wind starts blowing really hard with 20 to 30 mph gusts. You have been sitting and you decide to stand up for a while and fold up the seat and stand next to the tree getting blown off balance repeatedly and having to grab the tree just a little over and over to keep from falling out of the tree. 

Then you move your feet away from the tree a few inches and you lean all your body weight against the tree so that you are now not just standing next to the tree but you are totally pushing into the tree with your body weight, the farther you move your feet from the tree the more your body pushes into the tree. 

This is the same effect that back tension preload has on your shooting, it makes you more stable and solid and to much is not a good thing. You have to find that sweetspot where you are stable but not putting out to much effort weather standing in a tree or shooting a bow the same fundamental idea is there.


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## enderson (Apr 21, 2015)

Nice, I'll put the time in to work on this. I've mostly pulled into the wall with back tension or straight back like you mentioned. Also experienced some inconsistencies in float as it seems difficult to repeat consistently. Then I watch Reo rip the wall off like a bear and wonder... : )



Padgett said:


> I became a strong shooter totally ignoring all of this stuff, I simply set my bow in the 29 inch mod setting and tuned the arrow flight and started shooting. Even when I shot a bow for over a year of heavy shooting I never checked the draw length knowing that it had stretched. I simply ignored this aspect of shooting. In fact I shot my highest two vegas rounds a 300 29x and 28x with a draw length of 29.5 because my strings had stretched that much but as I have learned in the past just because you have a little success doing something wrong doesn't mean that you should continue doing it.
> 
> Luckily that week I compared my indoor bow to my 3d bow and saw the big difference in the draw lengths and that is when I made the appropriate changes and got things set up properly.
> 
> ...


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## dmacey (Mar 27, 2015)

Padgett said:


> One thing I would suggest to you guys is to really consider the difference between sitting next to the wall and then pulling into the wall using either back tension or just pulling straight back etc, in all of my shooting this always resulted in the pin getting pulled off the target or a funny looking pin float.


If it helps, I went through this this summer when I started picking up my compound bow again. I had the same problem when pulling through my shot - the pin would drop low or wobble around or both. However, it turned out in my case to be bad alignment, which I discovered for other reasons. I basically had to start over from scratch and redo my form, when it was all over my bow had gone from a 28" DL setting all the way out to 29.5". That's how far out our of line I had been shooting for all this time. 
The wobble when pulling into the wall is gone and the pin-going-low problem is solved by using a lower, more neutral grip (which straightens out my bare shafts too). 

So just to throw that out there - if you're having problems with a wandering dot when pulling into the wall, it might just be a simple alignment issue, with lots of little muscles having to do too much, etc....

DM


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## Sasquech (Dec 15, 2014)

Ron w the stars align once Ina while. I agree. What the holding weight is only matters in that there will be an amount that produces your best hold on target this is maintained through consistent form. Some tune the let off to get enough to find the point but measurement is not the goal the resulting hold stability is the measurement of success. Hopefully a different set of words saying the same thing help the light go on for those in conflict.

Me I shoot 54 lbs spirals 65% let off 18.5 approx in the valley probably about 22 at release. For me properly creep tuned won't matter. Will hit the same vertices poi as long as I'm getting good hold.

I come down on the pole with you ron


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## ron w (Jan 5, 2013)

well, what do you know !
you're right, it's not an matter of how much you're holding , as much as what the amount you're holding is doing for your shot,.....the amount itself, is insignificant.


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## Rick! (Aug 10, 2008)

enderson said:


> Bow is tuned to drop just slightly into the valley. Right as the stops barely touch let off is at its greatest and holding weight is ~16lbs. Like most with a hinge I try to maintain steady pressure against the wall. When on a draw board it doesnt take much additional pressure to go from 16lbs to ~19lbs+ holding weight by pulling slightly into the wall.
> 
> For those experienced with fine tuning holding weight, do you factor in a few extra pounds for when pulling into the stops?


No. I set up to a holding weight that I've recorded (and liked) and go from there. The number is significant to me as I've taken enough notes on my shooting to know the relationship between my HW, my hold and my scoring.



> Like if you want 20lbs holding, tune the bow for ~18lbs and get the few extra pounds from pressure against the wall?


No. The "day" determines if I'm adding to holding or resting on it. Some days I'm happy and accurate resting on the stops, some days I need to be more aggressive and preload more before shot execution.


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## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

This subject is something I would have written off in the past but now I really pay close attention to what guys are saying, I do feel that this is one of my weakest areas of knowledge because I have only worked on it for half a year basically give or take a few months. 

My issue is that when you see a pro shooter such as Chance B do his new pse setup that he did for Bowjunky last year his overall tuning of the bow was minimal but he took it out of the box and did a few things and then really stressed making the draw length exactly perfect. I always knew that I shouldn't be ignoring this little fact about the pro shooters because it is a big deal.


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## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

One of the things that I have always been criticized about is stressing hinge speed maintenance, I have never been a set it and forget it kind of guy, well guess what when you are to stupid to make sure your strings aren't stretching over a few months they are going to stretch and your draw length will increase and this causes you to be at a different overall angle at full draw and the hinge is in a constant rate of slow change over time. 

Admitting that I was this stupid on such a simple concept that was right in my face really sucks because during all that time I was using a draw board and checking my cam sync and keeping it spot on but never once thought about making a simple mark to record my draw length and keep it solid also. At least I am on board now.


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

enderson said:


> Same here, I can definitely feel the difference between 1lb of holding weight, 1oz stabilizer weight and 1/8th DL.


I can tell 1/8 inch probably most of the time, usually long.

I can tell 2 to 3 pounds of drawing weight, but holding weight of 1 pound, no. Having limb stops I can tell when I pull too hard. I can back off and come back to what I like to feel. I'd venture to say that most don't know exactly their holding weight, only that it either feels better or gives better results or both. I am unaware of any weight scale that can weigh our hold at full draw. We have what the math says and then there is us. I could come close and not really know for sure. I had my bow on a draw board and it was drawn to the O-rings of the stops. I can feel the O-rings touch. We then measured compression of the O-rings. So a scale could be used here to weigh the entire draw cycle and "touch to compressed" of O-rings and then that of over drawing. Still, this is scale weighing known factors, not me, but would give a general idea. 

1 ounce stabilizer weight, no, I can't. I added 2 ounces yesterday and couldn't feel the difference for added weight, but could feel the bow balance perhaps better and feel the bow react ever so slightly different.


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## ron w (Jan 5, 2013)

as far as draw length,.... when I was shooting my best,.....I could tell the difference of a twist or two in the string. I never gave specific holding weight precedence over exactly the right draw length knowing that no matter the serving diameter, as some say they use to establish a specific holding weight, every tiny adjustment to the draw length, will result in an different holding weight. you can drown yourself in "chasing the dragon", if you allow it to happen. 
the right draw length is so much more contributory to good shooting, than a specific holding weight, there is no comparison. when you start trying to establish both at the same time, you open that temptation to endlessly chase one with the other. 
i'm pretty sure, if you let your self fall into that vicious circle, sooner or later you're going to settle for the most absolutely right draw length, despite not having the most absolutely desirable holding weight. ' if you hit both on the nose, you're lucky,..... but in respect to the shot's overall quality, the latter is specifically insignificant.


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

ron w said:


> as far as draw length,.... when I was shooting my best,.....I could tell the difference of a twist or two in the string. I never gave specific holding weight precedence over exactly the right draw length knowing that no matter the serving diameter, as some say they use to establish a specific holding weight, every tiny adjustment to the draw length, .


This thicker cable, if I remember correctly. Either more strands or thicker serving? Regardless, speed is effected somewhat and I would think draw length to some little degree. 
The Martin Hammerhead strings came into being and a little shoddy to start. Beings I blew a gasket I was denied access to what serving size or type. I re-did my cables with .020" BCY and when chronographing I lost about 2 to 3 fps. I didn't feel any draw length change to speak of, but maybe some and to the short side if there was any. Getting real finicky, yeah, you could very well be chasing your tail...


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## Rabbit57 (Jun 15, 2012)

I know this is an old post. I have an Apex7. As you know it's a single cam how with no stop pegs. Is it possible to creep tune my Apex?

I'm going to practice for the Midwest Open this morning. I'm curious and will try the horizontal black tape idea.


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

I've something of creep tuning with my old UltraTec with Red Line single cam. Note, I haven't played with my UltraTec in a good 10 years, so memory issues. It's more of adjusting draw length. You can only pull so hard into the wall and then the cam is pressing into the cable, adding more to normal holding weight. Put bow in a draw board and draw to what be normal, add more draw and you'll see the cable being pressed on, distorted. I don't know the Mathews cam, but with the Red Line cam I could not hold consistently when drawing draw. I could draw hard, the bow would creep some and then my best shot came. Drawing normal I was at the point of best shot. Like I said, it's been a long time ago.


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## barndoorblaster (Feb 27, 2015)

*creep tune vs cam timing*

ok, so i'm newer to the fine tuning world for archery but definitely interested due to a competitive streak so forgive in advance if i missed the answer in this forum but doesnt cam tuning cover what you guys have been talking about this whole time? I ask being i ran into this after getting my strings/cables replaced on my faktor turbo and was retuning for the new string and hardware installed (D-loop, peep, etc). my wonderful missle launcher came with timing marks already on it to let me know what my bow was doing when i purchased it with the original string. of course during the process of tuning it, we failed to notice the timing marks were a little off. so of course i got my sights squared away and did the paper test only to find i was smacking low on the paper with the end of the arrow. i had a lot of bulleyes but was having varied drop offs...possibly the creep factor? everything else checked out fine. it wasn't until i looked at my timing marks and found one of the cams was off in positioning. once we got the right twist on the string on the one end that was off, the rear drop was gone. the other wonderous thing was even at thirty yards on a windy day, i was pitting the X several times without the varied drop offs and not even using a stabilizer and sleep deprived on top of that. now of course my strong theory, al beit hard to prove right at the moment, is during that shoot to retune distance pins, i was shooting by anchored feel with no regard on how hard or soft i was on the wall or valley for that matter. 

i am by no means a pro shooter and am on my third bow in a span of a year only because of the 'pretty' factor of the faktor in blackout with patterened colored accessories compared to my last bow, a matthews mr6 in camo. didn't look quite as cool IMO. I'm just wondering what your thoughts are. thanks. good topic.


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

barndoorblaster, okay, timing and draw length squared away, try this http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=453865


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

Rabbit57 said:


> I know this is an old post. I have an Apex7. As you know it's a single cam how with no stop pegs. Is it possible to creep tune my Apex?
> 
> I'm going to practice for the Midwest Open this morning. I'm curious and will try the horizontal black tape idea.


Yes. Work the twists at the bottom of your buss cable, ADD more and more half twists and see what happens. Then, try the other direction, and remove more and more half twists and see what happens.


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## Rabbit57 (Jun 15, 2012)

Well. Yesterday, I placed a section of 12" electrical tape at 20. With my single cam Apex7 I hit the tape on center. I then pulled back hard, and sure enough I was 1" low. Then I relaxed my elbow to creep it forward. And sure enough, 1" in low. 

In creeping my draw more back and forward was an odd feeling for me as I never pull back that hard and I don't ever bend my elbow. I hold my Apex7 like a recurve shooter with locked elbow and high wrist which makes it mostly impossible to be at less or more of a draw since the bow arm, from shoulder to crotch of bow hand as locked in length. Also, high wrist placement I don't experience torque . My Apex at 10 pounds exactly handles perfectly for me with the combination of bow arm and weight distribution. 

Yesterday while testing this, I shot my usual every other day practice 5-spot. With a score of 300 54X and I'm usually 48X-50X. So obviously I DO have a creep tuning issue with the Apex that never shows itself, though I'm never am at the point of under or over drawing my bow because the way I hold and anchor it. 

The 2015 Vegas Champ Alex Wifler, who is an ex-recurve shooter, shoots also at a high wrist and locked elbow. And with myself the exact same anchor point, string slightly touching the corner of my mouth and just barley touch the tip of my nose. I discipline myself in every step of my shot sequence. I'm 

So, with all that said, should I be concerned about creep tuning? In twisting my only cam cable, will that effect my tiller?

The test did prove interesting though.


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## barndoorblaster (Feb 27, 2015)

SonnyThomas said:


> barndoorblaster, okay, timing and draw length squared away, try this http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=453865[/QUOTE
> 
> That reads alot like what padgett was saying earlier in this thread by padgett which i can double check if i ever get more than 30 seconds to rub together. thanks


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