# DL facts; not opinions



## stoneywv (Nov 14, 2013)

Who is shooting at the measured Span/2.5 draw length for target? Compiling some data to either prove or dismiss the 2.5 theory from folks that most have worked to fine tune your draws.

For this discussion "Draw Reach" is length from your choice of release's jaw to the bow grip cradle spot. We will assume everyone understands that releases vary and we assume you have to pic one that you like to start adjusting to; and not adjust bow and then find a release that works with the bows adjustments. And yes, it will cause readjusting every time you change releases.

My Info
Measure 74.5 Span /2.5= 29.8
Hunting Bow 30.2 + .5 D-Loop Trigger Release
Target Bow Currently 30.5 +.5 D-Loop but going down to 30 when mods arrive. Hinge Release


That places my Draw Reach for the draw to be at 30.7 hunting and 30.5 target(after todays change). This is almost full inch beyond what I measured out at. Everyone here understands that "draw length isn't effected by D-loop". The principal behind my research on this is that the 2.5 conversion in my theory is based on where the string should meet your face not your Draw Reach. After the string is in the correct spot, then the D-Loop is placed at length that would put get your draw arm in line with arrow. Once this is accomplished then you have a Draw Reach number for your setup as defined above and the info we are searching for. THere has to be a close to standard addition to the 2.5 conversion that would lend itself to the avg D-loop length to get ones Draw Reach correct. Or my theory is busted based on your data and most of you are running bow draw length + D-loop= Draw Reach at the 2.5 conversion lengths which would mean they are one in the same. 

Your information is greatly appreciated. I hate to be a stickler when asking for info, but if you haven't placed the bow on a draw board or had someone actaully measure your draw I'm not confident in the data. Bows vary too much from factory to make an accurate assesment.

Thanks in advance guys and if I can get the amount of data I need I will run some statistics formula's on it an post up something that is usable for all. 
Stoney


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## OhWell (Aug 21, 2013)

Having some serious OCD when it comes to my out door gear I have messed with this quite a bit so I am also quite interested in the results.

66"/2.5 = 26.4

When shooting shorter head releases such as hinges or my Pro D Extreme I like my bow set at 26" from grip throat to string at nock point. I keep my D-loops pretty short, under .75". I guess based on my info the formula gets me really close.


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## Ned250 (Aug 10, 2009)

I've fine tuned my DL and DLoop to death this winter. DL is measured on a kwik shooter. Shooting a Prime One with 29.5" cams.

Target bow = 29.75" DL + 0.79" DLoop = 30.54" DR

Wing span = 76"/2.5 = 30.4"


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## stoneywv (Nov 14, 2013)

Hmm, very interesting; Thanks


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## carlielos (May 12, 2007)

More than likely your head is not due north, you're probably looking just over the bridge of your nose! 
That being said I think it's nearly impossible to set your draw length yourself because head position at full draw is everything and you can't tell on your own if your head is due north or not


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## schmel_me (Dec 17, 2003)

using the wingspan I shoot within .3" of that measurement.


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## stoneywv (Nov 14, 2013)

schmel_me said:


> using the wingspan I shoot within .3" of that measurement.


Need bow draw length, d-loop length, and wingspan please if you have them. Data has to go into a stat data table to be calculated.


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## criss-p-bacon (Sep 5, 2013)

the 2.5 math isnt for everyone. its just concidered a starting point, that isnt what id call fine tunning. once you get that average to start with using 2.5, then you fine tune with more or less depending on YOUR body shape.


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## Slingshot (Jan 1, 2008)

Ok....

Wingspan 72.5

Draw length 29.0 + .5 loop

Draw reach 29.5

I have tried lengthening my draw to 29.5 and 30, the 29.5 was ok but the 30 was too long. After a ton of experiential testing I'm back at 29


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## BoHunter0210 (Oct 3, 2011)

Wing span 70"

Draw 28 inches + .75 loop

Draw reach 28.75

Going down to a 27.5 inch mod and will finish out around 28.25


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## TNMAN (Oct 6, 2009)

carlielos said:


> More than likely your head is not due north, you're probably looking just over the bridge of your nose!
> That being said I think it's nearly impossible to set your draw length yourself because head position at full draw is everything and you can't tell on your own if your head is due north or not


That Due North "stuff" is just that, imho. Have not found a single top compound archer (picture or u-tube) who is not facing approx NNE across the line of flight. You would have to anchor under the chin with string near middle of lips to be even close to due North. Facing North would honestly break my neck. It really is OK to sight across the bridge of your nose. That's the way humans are built for the most part---especially us older big nosed humans.

73.75" span, 29.5" dl, 5/8" loop with Carter Insat---longer loop with any release that is shorter


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## Looney Bin (Feb 9, 2009)

This should be interesting if you can get enough data.

I am one of those people that shoots slightly different DL's based on the bow being shot, the way a bow holds, string angle, anchor reference points, what I plan on doing with the bow and what kind of adjustments need to be made to get the best groups on target.


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## Mahly (Dec 18, 2002)

78" / 2.5 = 31.2
My bow is 31.5, and I shoot about a 1/2" loop 
The loop measurement really means nothing without knowing the size of the head of the release, and where it sits in your hand.


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## miko0618 (Mar 3, 2005)

72" wingspan

29 3/8" draw

5/8" loop


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## Draw27 (Dec 7, 2010)

TNMAN said:


> That Due North "stuff" is just that, imho. Have not found a single top compound archer (picture or u-tube) who is not facing approx NNE across the line of flight. You would have to anchor under the chin with string near middle of lips to be even close to due North. Facing North would honestly break my neck. It really is OK to sight across the bridge of your nose. That's the way humans are built for the most part---especially us older big nosed humans.
> 
> 73.75" span, 29.5" dl, 5/8" loop with Carter Insat---longer loop with any release that is shorter


This is how I shoot anchor below my chin and strings sets center of my lips and tip of my nose,i am shooting a bowtech experience with a carter too simple set at 26.5 and my wing span is 67/58''


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## Mahly (Dec 18, 2002)

So, do you use a peep?


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## rohpenguins (Dec 2, 2012)

the numbers you are looking for will not be of much help

1. most people's dl is too long
2. most people don't measure there bows true dl on a draw board. 
3. d loop doesn't equate to dl just changes anchor point.

too many inconsistencies for a good statistical analysis.


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## RCR_III (Mar 19, 2011)

I have to agree with this quote. There's too many people that haven't optimized their bow's draw length and their loop's length to match their releases and get good, consistent groupings. Also, The length of the loop can change drastically depending on the type of release. Or brand of release. Here's a link to a thread that I started about draw lengths just for food for thought on this all though. http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=2195266


rohpenguins said:


> the numbers you are looking for will not be of much help
> 
> 1. most people's dl is too long
> 2. most people don't measure there bows true dl on a draw board.
> ...


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## bowtecha (Feb 16, 2010)

68" wingspan

.75" loop

26.875" AMO DL


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## miko0618 (Mar 3, 2005)

rohpenguins said:


> the numbers you are looking for will not be of much help
> 
> 1. most people's dl is too long
> 2. most people don't measure there bows true dl on a draw board.
> ...


I wont say i completely disagree but i do have a different view. You have an optimal bow arm length setting and an optimal release arm length setting. I would say that most archers bend their bow arms a bit. This cushion is why the shorter is better came about. But, if everyone shot a bow arm like its a post, longer would be better. Your bow arm shoulder gets beat up shooting too short. But, if you just keep bending your bow arm its going to shoot better once you build tension with it. The release side must be long enough to wrap around the face. Also, if its too short you will be using your shoulder to execute. So on that side, i say longer is better. I think people get caught up in shooting as short as possible. When you are short, you cant hold still for long, you are tensed up, you fatigue quickly and you cannot break concentration. With all that being said, shooting inches too long is bad. You shouldnt compromise form. Theres a perfect draw length but if i was to error by 1/4", i'd error long.


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## rohpenguins (Dec 2, 2012)

miko0618 said:


> I wont say i completely disagree but i do have a different view. You have an optimal bow arm length setting and an optimal release arm length setting. I would say that most archers bend their bow arms a bit. This cushion is why the shorter is better came about. But, if everyone shot a bow arm like its a post, longer would be better. Your bow arm shoulder gets beat up shooting too short. But, if you just keep bending your bow arm its going to shoot better once you build tension with it. The release side must be long enough to wrap around the face. Also, if its too short you will be using your shoulder to execute. So on that side, i say longer is better. I think people get caught up in shooting as short as possible. When you are short, you cant hold still for long, you are tensed up, you fatigue quickly and you cannot break concentration. With all that being said, shooting inches too long is bad. You shouldnt compromise form. Theres a perfect draw length but if i was to error by 1/4", i'd error long.


I am willing to bet most archers DL is too long. I see it all the time.


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## miko0618 (Mar 3, 2005)

Maybe it varies from area to area. I'd say most archers i see are close or short. Some are too long. I dont think its how it used to be. When i first started, everyone was a 29 or 30" draw. Mostly i see people trying to get it right now. Even the bowhunters.


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## bigHUN (Feb 5, 2006)

x2 I agree the math won't work close enough,
expanding: the release - upper arm muscles- a playing factor what angle you can bend the arm in elbow....
some people built up biceps in a gym some on a farmland some folks playing games all day long in front of the PC have none.....
Just looking at pics and vids of shooters where is their elbow and wrist relation, what is the release angle related to the arrow centerline? 
the wingspan could be long but the biceps/triceps volume won't let you have a longer DL, so a longer release and longer d-loop comes to play balancing out angles


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## stoneywv (Nov 14, 2013)

Appreciate your passion and I understand we all have opinions. Just looking for numbers please

I will post my results and you can have fun with them. I'm going to pass this to my local shop who will use the information; however skewed some believe it is, to start a baseline in hopes of eliminating some steps out of the setup of folks with new bows. The closer the initial setup is to what is ultimately concluded as the best setup; the happier the shooters/customers will be and a true advantage to the shop that others aren't taking the time to do. 

No, it won't work for everyone; but we use ergonomical average in design, because it applies to the largest percentage of a group, and this will be no different, it will get things set to the baseline avg, so there are just minor tweaks needed to adjust by visually watching the shooting process. This will save the professionals that fit bows in the shop valuable time which is critical for very small shops. And most importantly will stop folks buying three sets of draw mods for a bow at $30 each since it seems this is the avenue all manufactures are going to to have the best draw curves on their bows at a given draw length. Also, it will save the perfectionist many steps in getting to their ultimate best shooting set-up along with giving that set and forget hunter who doesn't practice post season and not much prior season a much more accurate set-up from start even if they never change a thing.

I'm trying to bring as much information to the table to help out fellow archers as I can without giving just my "opinion" about something. This will be a statistical fact of I'm hoping over 100 archers in the end. More will be added as time goes by to help increase the accuracy.

I chose this awesome Target forum because I know that most of you guys and gals on here have spent countless hours shooting at different draws trying to determine which one is most accurate for you. This is what makes your information a gold mine; you don't set it and forget it like some archers. You are never happy with good and are always searching for that slight improvement that makes your shooting great, and this is what I'm trying to harvest here. Again, your knowledge is priceless to the beginner archers we just need to get it out there.

Thanks for all your support; Stoney


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## FS560 (May 22, 2002)

I realize that you want to do a statistical analysis to arrive a a usable "menu" for archers to utilize. The end result may be that archers will see your menu as cast in stone and absolutely must be adhered to for competent shot execution.

Unless ALL variables are adequately addressed, no statistical analysis produced menu or tool can be viable and may do more harm than good. I can just imagine bow shops getting this kind of tool. Competency of staff at bow shops is suspect in the first place.

A good example is the wingspan formula for DL. There are legions of archers that believe the wingspan/2.5 formula is the "be all/end all" of DL determination.


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## stoneywv (Nov 14, 2013)

For all those that submitted information requested, I say thank you very much. 

Obviously the data that I'm going to get out of this is already posted. Kind of disappointed in amount of data, but research is never easy.

If there is moderator out here please close the thread ASAP because I don't have the ability to and what's continuing now is not useful for anyone reading.

Thanks for your input all.


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## miko0618 (Mar 3, 2005)

Theres already a thread like this with way more replies. You could combine the 2


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## Pete53 (Dec 5, 2011)

don`t forget if you have long or short fingers i have a wing span of 74 inches at 6ft. 1 in. i have long fingers so i shoot about 28 1/4- 28 1/2 depending on bow with a short hinge. Bernie Pellerite personally measured me.


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## w8lon (Jun 2, 2012)

73/2.5=29.2
Bows set up 29.625+ dloop .625= 30.25
I have grown in the past couple of years shooting Oly recurve and found my compounds to be short through improved form.
My Mojo 3D is now set to the 29.625 + loop as well as arrows pulling through the clicker on recurve.


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## bbigfish (Mar 13, 2014)

73.5" wing span
29.5 DL +.5 loop with shorter release to make up for DL. 

Hunted for over 20 yrs with 30" DL and no loop.


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## ArcherXXX300 (Apr 22, 2013)

I personally have no idea what DL I should shoot. I've measured 28.25" Wingspan/2.5. I've measured 27.75" from throat collar bone area to tips of fingers. I've also shot 28.5" and I've shot roughly the same scores with all these different DL's on different bows I own. So I really don't know whats wrong with me.


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