# FYI for DIY



## archerynutt (Aug 27, 2003)

http://www.uspto.gov/web/offices/pac/mpep/documents/appxl_35_U_S_C_271.htm


35 U.S.C. 271 Infringement of patent.

(a) Except as otherwise provided in this title, whoever without authority makes, uses, offers to sell, or sells any patented invention, within the United States, or imports into the United States any patented invention during the term of the patent therefor, infringes the patent.

(b) Whoever actively induces infringement of a patent shall be liable as an infringer.

(c) Whoever offers to sell or sells within the United States or imports into the United States a component of a patented machine, manufacture, combination, or composition, or a material or apparatus for use in practicing a patented process, constituting a material part of the invention, knowing the same to be especially made or especially adapted for use in an infringement of such patent, and not a staple article or commodity of commerce suitable for substantial noninfringing use, shall be liable as a contributory infringer.

(d) No patent owner otherwise entitled to relief for infringement or contributory infringement of a patent shall be denied relief or deemed guilty of misuse or illegal extension of the patent right by reason of his having done one or more of the following: (1) derived revenue from acts which if performed by another without his consent would constitute contributory infringement of the patent; (2) licensed or authorized another to perform acts which if performed without his consent would constitute contributory infringement of the patent; (3) sought to enforce his patent rights against infringement or contributory infringement; (4) refused to license or use any rights to the patent; or (5) conditioned the license of any rights to the patent or the sale of the patented product on the acquisition of a license to rights in another patent or purchase of a separate product, unless, in view of the circumstances, the patent owner has market power in the relevant market for the patent or patented product on which the license or sale is conditioned.


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## thirdhandman (Nov 2, 2009)

Hey archery nut: Anyone in particular this is directed to.


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## Jmoore12 (Mar 19, 2012)

Yes


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## ksgoosekillr (Jul 9, 2009)

make one with an air cylinder instead of a worm drive... the great thing about patents is they leave room for improvement that are within the laws


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## thirdhandman (Nov 2, 2009)

who?


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## ksgoosekillr (Jul 9, 2009)

he is directing it at the guy that made a few for his friends and now sees that there is interest from other for the press, so hes trying to throw legal terms at him to not make/sell a press that is similar to the own he owns a patent on. The only specifics i see in his patent is the use of a worm drive, considering there are quite a few bow presses mfg today that also have worm drives i'm surprised this patent was granted in the first place and wasn't rejected during the patent search.


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## NJlungbuster (Sep 14, 2006)

Yeah i'm with ksgoosekillr on this one. Always room for improvement. Honestly, what it comes down to is that his prices are too high and people know it. That's why they're making their own. Everyone knows you can make one "similar" for about $150 in materials, and i'm pretty sure everyone will agree that $300 for labor is pretty steep when you're mass producing something. What a joke.


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## ksgoosekillr (Jul 9, 2009)

im a mech engineer by trade, and regularly deal with patent attorneys here at work, the one thing ive learned other than the patent search and how you phrase certain things take forever is that the only thing a patent protects is the identical replication of a design. All a patent does is give someone else a base on how to improve and perfect an existing idea. Even in the cases of replication a person can and does lose out to a corp or person with more money who can outlast the original inventor in appeals court, usually leading to a settlement where the original inventor gets a fraction of of the lifetime profit the new owner will make just by copying an idea and then using money to outlast the person with not enough funds to see thru all the appeals. crappy for sure but its life and happens all the time


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## Lowlevlflyer (Aug 2, 2011)

Sounds to me like archerynutt is just hacked off because someone found out they can make the same thing he's making for a fourth of the cost. Welcome to the REAL world of free enterprise, ace!


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## Ohio Mossy Oak (Dec 17, 2006)

Take them all to court or shut-up,that is my take on it..Or settle it at high-noon like real men..


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## Jaron Anderson (Aug 5, 2010)

Ohio Mossy Oak said:


> Take them all to court or shut-up,that is my take on it..Or settle it at high-noon like real men..


Haha High noon. This isn't Hatfields and McCoys now Haus


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## ksgoosekillr (Jul 9, 2009)

Ohio Mossy Oak said:


> Take them all to court or shut-up,that is my take on it..Or settle it at high-noon like real men..


I'm your huckleberry...


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## redhookred1 (Dec 9, 2008)

Better re read "Except as otherwise provided in this title" You cant just pick and choose what part of the law you like! There is a lot more to it than that!


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## thirdhandman (Nov 2, 2009)

Stealing someones idea or design is just that. Stealing. Ones idea doesn't just happen. It takes time to come up with an idea, which is money, research to see what will and will not work, which is money, designs more money, packageing ,marketing, insurance all cost money . If you take a concept and make it better, that is not stealing. To copy what someone else has perfected is flat out stealing. 
I don't have a dog in this fight, but I sure know what it feels like to do all the work and spend all the money and have somebody feel it is o.k. to just copy something. Or worse, send it to China and let them copy your product. I'm sort of partial to the days of the Hatfields and Mc Coys. Just Chute em.


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## Lowlevlflyer (Aug 2, 2011)

thirdhandman said:


> Stealing someones idea or design is just that. Stealing. Ones idea doesn't just happen. It takes time to come up with an idea, which is money, research to see what will and will not work, which is money, designs more money, packageing ,marketing, insurance all cost money . If you take a concept and make it better, that is not stealing. To copy what someone else has perfected is flat out stealing.
> I don't have a dog in this fight, but I sure know what it feels like to do all the work and spend all the money and have somebody feel it is o.k. to just copy something. Or worse, send it to China and let them copy your product. I'm sort of partial to the days of the Hatfields and Mc Coys. Just Chute em.


And as long as said person isnt making a profit off that supposedly "stolen" idea, there's not a darned thing you or anyone else can do about it... patent or not. Now, if he goes into production with the exact same press, that's different... but I doubt seriously that a court of law is going to uphold a patent in this case, unless there's something WAY more specific in the design other than a worm gear drive. If that's the case, then he'd better gear up to sue every other manufacturer that builds a press with a worm drive... I can name several.


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## ksgoosekillr (Jul 9, 2009)

thirdhandman said:


> Stealing someones idea or design is just that. Stealing. Ones idea doesn't just happen. It takes time to come up with an idea, which is money, research to see what will and will not work, which is money, designs more money, packageing ,marketing, insurance all cost money . If you take a concept and make it better, that is not stealing. To copy what someone else has perfected is flat out stealing.
> I don't have a dog in this fight, but I sure know what it feels like to do all the work and spend all the money and have somebody feel it is o.k. to just copy something. Or worse, send it to China and let them copy your product. I'm sort of partial to the days of the Hatfields and Mc Coys. Just Chute em.


just FYI this is the DIY area, not the "let starving kids in china make it for me" area


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## rand_98201 (Sep 24, 2008)

ksgoosekillr said:


> just FYI this is the DIY area, not the "let starving kids in china make it for me" area


lol


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## 138104 (May 14, 2009)

Mr. Pittman, I respect you for your press design, but beating up on some DIY'er isn't the way to go about things. I think you need to keep in mind that they aren't going to buy your press anyway due to cost. Now, if someone starts mass producing your design, I can see you having a problem with it, but a guy who sells a few presses for little to no profit isn't hurting your business. Honestly, some of the DIY presses offer more than your press offers, such as draw boards, shooting machines, and multiple fingers on the same base that accomodate bows with draw stops. After all these years, you still do not offer a draw board attachment for your press. I think you would gain some extra sales if you could incorporate that into your green press and keep the price at $399. Good luck to you!


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## hooiserarcher (Feb 20, 2011)

Perry24 said:


> Mr. Pittman, I respect you for your press design, but beating up on some DIY'er isn't the way to go about things. I think you need to keep in mind that they aren't going to buy your press anyway due to cost. Now, if someone starts mass producing your design, I can see you having a problem with it, but a guy who sells a few presses for little to no profit isn't hurting your business. Honestly, some of the DIY presses offer more than your press offers, such as draw boards, shooting machines, and multiple fingers on the same base that accomodate bows with draw stops. After all these years, you still do not offer a draw board attachment for your press. I think you would gain some extra sales if you could incorporate that into your green press and keep the price at $399. Good luck to you!


good suggestion from a great businessman


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## Jmoore12 (Mar 19, 2012)

There is a fine line between reproducing someone's product and using the existing product as a building block to improve and change. If building from another's product was against the law no progress would ever be made. Auto manufacturers do it, computer technologies thrive from it etc. I do not wish to go into an ethical debate on where that line lies, and I do not believe that was the intent of archerynutt when this thread was posted. I stand firm in your right to defend your product. But at some point you have to understand that you can not and will not ever be able to control the entire market on the equipment that preforms this function. Think hard about what you think our intent is in doing what we do, and ask yourself at what point you are damaging your reputation and social standing by chasing us around with empty threats.


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## buckman2591 (Feb 6, 2011)

ksgoosekillr said:


> im a mech engineer by trade, and regularly deal with patent attorneys here at work, the one thing ive learned other than the patent search and how you phrase certain things take forever is that the only thing a patent protects is the identical replication of a design. All a patent does is give someone else a base on how to improve and perfect an existing idea. Even in the cases of replication a person can and does lose out to a corp or person with more money who can outlast the original inventor in appeals court, usually leading to a settlement where the original inventor gets a fraction of of the lifetime profit the new owner will make just by copying an idea and then using money to outlast the person with not enough funds to see thru all the appeals. crappy for sure but its life and happens all the time


Tell me how any of the DIY presses are a carbon copy of the original in ANY manner other than the "worm drive"????


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## Dride (Apr 10, 2012)

Might as well close all the d.i.y. threads.


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## jrdrees (Jun 12, 2010)

Ssssss...son of a gun...


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## jrdrees (Jun 12, 2010)

"and not a staple article or commodity of commerce..." how long has the bench vise been around? Just a large bench vise, suitable for large items to press.


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## madarchery (May 28, 2003)

Well I am no rocket scientist but maybe the company would be better off selling KD kits. I bet people would buy the kits just knowing the parts are going to work and its a 1 stop shop.

Think outside the box people, don't get stuck in a narrow business plan, if your losing business instead of threatening make them a customer.


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## jrdrees (Jun 12, 2010)

You can perform the same function with a 10" turnbuckle and some cable and bar stock.... Oh wait, you're close to infringing on another "close" design.


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## Jovush (Sep 28, 2006)

If the patent system doesn't do a great job of helping protect intellectual property, can someone explain why there aren't more "Butt-out" tool knockoffs?


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## thirdhandman (Nov 2, 2009)

sixty seconds in a minute and sixty minutes in an hour and yet there are over 1000 patents on a simple watch. Patents are where lawyers make money. Isn't it funney, laws are written by lawyers who get paid to write them as well as defend them. They get paid regardless of outcome. The shame of it is if you have a good invention and a patent but don't have the money to defend it, any big company can take it away by keeping you tied up for years in court till you go broke.


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## ksgoosekillr (Jul 9, 2009)

buckman2591 said:


> Tell me how any of the DIY presses are a carbon copy of the original in ANY manner other than the "worm drive"????


im on your side here ace... read more of what ive posted then make a comment


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## Lowlevlflyer (Aug 2, 2011)

thirdhandman said:


> sixty seconds in a minute and sixty minutes in an hour and yet there are over 1000 patents on a simple watch. Patents are where lawyers make money. Isn't it funney, laws are written by lawyers who get paid to write them as well as defend them. They get paid regardless of outcome. The shame of it is if you have a good invention and a patent but don't have the money to defend it, any big company can take it away by keeping you tied up for years in court till you go broke.


Very sad, and very true.


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## Jovush (Sep 28, 2006)

Thirdhand, you make some fine products, have you sidestepped the patent approach? If so, care to share your experiences? Reason I ask is I've seen several guys here with what they believe great ideas but can't afford the patent application process and then their ideas are dropped. I can only imagine the possibly great products that don't make it into production just because they were dropped for lack of funding. I too have a handfull of ideas but lack the confidence and the bucks to pursue. Sorry if I stole the thread but think it may be in line if we are talking future innovation follows earlier work of others.


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## ruttnwapati (Sep 22, 2008)

Sounds like archerynutt wants to "PRESS" the issue.
or he has nothing else "pressing" today so he posts in the DIY section.
Anyone else want to play along !! 
I for one would love to see a mockery made out of this thread before he gets all his thread police in this section giving out legal advice and all the B.S.
associated with his patent and his press.


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## jrdrees (Jun 12, 2010)

Funny thing about a patent... It doesn't last forever, it doesn't mean you are the inventor, all it means is your lawyer put together a solid enough case and you put up the $$$. It also doesn't let you see into people's houses, and doesn't guarantee profitability, and can drive you insane with your patently insane entitlement attitude.


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## thirdhandman (Nov 2, 2009)

Jovush said:


> Thirdhand, you make some fine products, have you sidestepped the patent approach? If so, care to share your experiences? Reason I ask is I've seen several guys here with what they believe great ideas but can't afford the patent application process and then their ideas are dropped. I can only imagine the possibly great products that don't make it into production just because they were dropped for lack of funding. I too have a handfull of ideas but lack the confidence and the bucks to pursue. Sorry if I stole the thread but think it may be in line if we are talking future innovation follows earlier work of others.


Jovush: Thank you for recognizing I am the inventer. That and .50 gets you a cup of coffee. I have had my products copied by 11 big manufacturers. The only way they could beat me was to take my research and development and make copies in China. I used to sell to the box stores but they now sell the chinese copies. I take it the only way I can, and that is as a compliment. They only copy the best!
If you want to discuss some ideas give me a call. But my own opinion, if you don't have the money to be tied up in court over a few years and pay the lawyers while in court. Don't waste your time getting a patient.
For less than $500 you can file for a patent. That will protect you for about a year or more if you make changes to it. Once you get a patent issued its game on. Now the competition can see the claims to the patent and figure a way around it.


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## Lowlevlflyer (Aug 2, 2011)

ruttnwapati said:


> Sounds like archerynutt wants to "PRESS" the issue.
> or he has nothing else "pressing" today so he posts in the DIY section.
> Anyone else want to play along !!
> I for one would love to see a mockery made out of this thread before he gets all his thread police in this section giving out legal advice and all the B.S.
> associated with his patent and his press.


Well, I notice that he hasn't stepped in and "pressed" his agenda anywhere in this thread, besides his first post. maybe he's scared. :darkbeer:


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## TargetShooter2 (Dec 10, 2010)

*in*














ruttnwapati said:


> Sounds like archerynutt wants to "PRESS" the issue.
> or he has nothing else "pressing" today so he posts in the DIY section.
> Anyone else want to play along !!
> I for one would love to see a mockery made out of this thread before he gets all his thread police in this section giving out legal advice and all the B.S.
> associated with his patent and his press.


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## zmax hunter (Aug 21, 2006)

I mean seriously? Winchester, Remington, Hornady, Federal, etc,..they all make bullets, handgun, rifle, shotgun shells for the same caliber of gun, using the same primer method, the same propellant method, but maybe their own powder, bullet design, etc...

Some with no visible difference,..

Seems to me, Its kinda like tires,..they are round, with various dimensions and tread patterns,..and lots of folks make and sale them


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## Raymond 1 (Feb 23, 2010)

I have seen a guy locally making the exact same item, exactly the same except for the paint color. And he keeps producing them probably made 300 of them by now.


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## RatherBArchery (Oct 31, 2006)

Wouldn't Canadians be exempt from US patents??? Just asking.


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## Raymond 1 (Feb 23, 2010)

I have no idea. I mentioned to him about this patent and he doesn't care at all he said.


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## kc hay seed (Jul 12, 2007)

all of archery is a copy,it happens every day.post like this one is why i will never buy one of this guys presses. he has stopped some very good product from being on the market. the gentleman is just like our country GREED is going to kill it. archery is to be shared by everyone not just a few. just my $0.02 worth


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## reylamb (Feb 5, 2003)

RatherBArchery said:


> Wouldn't Canadians be exempt from US patents??? Just asking.


As long as they are not sold in the US there is no way to enforce patent laws. Pretty much the same with the copies being made in Germany and China right now also.


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## reylamb (Feb 5, 2003)

kc hay seed said:


> all of archery is a copy,it happens every day.post like this one is why i will never buy one of this guys presses. he has stopped some very good product from being on the market. the gentleman is just like our country GREED is going to kill it. archery is to be shared by everyone not just a few. just my $0.02 worth


And all of the manufacturers either pay the patent owners to license their products (the Allen family for compounds, most mfg to Darton for their cams, etc.), they stop producing the items that are in violation of valid patents, or they end up closing the doors (I forgot which archery company went under for patent violations back in the 70s or 80s).

Patents have a valid purpose, to protect the property of individuals that invented it. With no protection where is the incentive for anyone to ever proudce any new products? Just think if Edison had no protection for his lightbulb, all of the R&D he spent to come up with a workable incandescant bulb down the tubes while others steal his design. It has nothing to do with greed, it has to do with protecting original ideas.


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## Maui Rhino (Mar 13, 2010)

There is a huge difference between the guy who builds one for himself, and the guy who is making and selling lots of them. If you only build one for yourself, you are not violating the patent. Once you start to sell them, you are basically stealing from him. Whether or not you agree with Archerynutt's postion, the fact is, he holds a patent. It is also his responsibility to notify violators that he has the patent and will pursue legal action to enforce his rights. You shouldn't criticize him for defending his business. That is how he makes money and feeds his family. If you believe his press is overpriced, you don't have to buy it. If you don't like the design, you can buy something else. If you think you can build a better press that doesn't violate his patent and sell it cheaper, then have at it. 

Each person, whether consumer or business owner, needs to make his own ethical decisions when it comes to respecting people's patent and intellectual property rights. If you create a business selling a knock off of another company's product, you are stealing...plain and simple. As a consumer, if you know that product B is a straight-up copy of patented product A but cheaper, buying it is supporting that same stealing. Obviously, 99% of people are not going to be aware of the patents on a product, but the information can be found if you care enough to look. Personally, if I know that Company B is ripping off Company A's product, I won't buy from them. 

I own a micro-business sewing custom bags and backpacks. I am also active on a tactical gear sewing forum. I know of several companies big and small that seem to specialize in copying other people's designs. None of those will ever get a dime from me. 
I have also had my own products and designs copied. One guy copied a camera pouch of mine, had the audacity to call it the Maui Minimalist Pouch (wanna take a guess where I live?), and then try to claim that it was his own design. When confronted, he changed the name and pouch dimensions, but continues to sell my pouch. He also copies several other well respected tactical gear makers products. I'm sure his customers don't know enough to know they are copies, but those of us in the industry and on that forum that do will not help him or support him in any way...whether by buying his products or refering customers to him. Along the same line, when I was first learing to make gear, I copied the design of some items that I liked. I have never sold any of them, and never posted pics online anywhere. They were learning processes for me, and made for my use only. As I learned more and gained more skill, I began to create my own designs which I sell. That is not a violation of others patents or IP rights. I have been approached many times by a customer who says something like "I want a pack just like this one...." I always refuse to copy it. Then I start asking what features he likes or dislikes about the item, how he will be using it, etc. and before long we have come up with a custom item that meets his needs and isn't ripping off another's designs. Sometimes that means that I have to spend more time to come up with a design that isn't a copy. Usually it also means that I need to charge a bit more than I would like, but I also make a better product. 

My point is, we should respect others patent and Intellectual Property rights. Making an item for your own use is allowed under the law, but making them for sale is illegal, plain and simple. Making that ethical decision to follow or violate the law is your own responsibility.


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## Fury90flier (Jun 27, 2012)

people think patents are end all be all once you get one...nope. Not to hard to either get it terminated or cancelled. It's also not too hard to make a close to exact copy and get a different patent. A change in materials, accessory attachment etc are just a couple examples to produce basically the same thing and be legal.

Worm gear drive...not hard to copy that and get away with it. I'd have to look at the patent, but I doubt the patent on the device contains a patent on the gear ratio and modulus.


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## gridman (Aug 26, 2007)

archerynutt said:


> http://www.uspto.gov/web/offices/pac/mpep/documents/appxl_35_U_S_C_271.htm
> 
> 
> 35 U.S.C. 271 Infringement of patent.
> ...


what's this about?


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## jrdrees (Jun 12, 2010)

The patent is for pressing a bow via limb tip pressure. What about if you are pressing on a bearing block? Not the tip of the limb like on Bowtech's new models or similar designs? Also, the other patent is for a linear vise action, which is a concept available in the market place for over 200 years, not patentable.


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## buckman2591 (Feb 6, 2011)

You could change the game tremendously, presser's pm and ask how! I've had this design floating in my head for a long while now and I'd like to finally implement it into a physical object


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## Jaron Anderson (Aug 5, 2010)

Hmmm, posting this in the DIY section is kind of like telling a guy named Jamal about how much you despise black people


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## Skunkworkx (Apr 2, 2011)

I made a somewhat copy of a car traction devise and heard s**t about it on a car site or two because I "stole the design" but mine was different in about 5 ways. I posted up another Mfg. who makes a similar product to the "original" but has maybe 1 or 2 differences and BOTH are "patented" :wink: Go figure.

Never heard anything from the Mfg. who also is a member of one of the sites....Was kind of funny when I posted up designs that his was modified from and others had questions too since it was "his" design.

Only made 2 BTW....mine and a friends.


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## thirdhandman (Nov 2, 2009)

Only making two it isn't worth the time or legal expense to a manufacturer to sue.


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## Squawsach (Apr 26, 2008)

If I see something I like and I can make it, I'm going to copy it. I've been doing it for years. I don't see the need to spend $XXXX.XX on something I can make for far less. Don't get bent out of shape about it. Most products are produced for people who couldn't change their own tire. This is not that kind of crowd. If you don't want the DIY crowd to copy your stuff, keep it to yourself.


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## Rick Hodges (Nov 3, 2008)

Squawsach said:


> If I see something I like and I can make it, I'm going to copy it. I've been doing it for years. I don't see the need to spend $XXXX.XX on something I can make for far less. Don't get bent out of shape about it. Most products are produced for people who couldn't change their own tire. This is not that kind of crowd. If you don't want the DIY crowd to copy your stuff, keep it to yourself.


X-2:thumbs_up


In fact the arrogant, threatening, nature of the post leaves me with the attitude that I would rather pay someone else to copy the damn thing before I would pay for the orginal product. Way to go...kill your own market!!!!


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## Jovush (Sep 28, 2006)

Apparently the patent process has worked for the Butt-Out tool, you don't see any companies stepping on this successful product and describing it for the use in field dressing DEER. I understand there are similar products for bird hunters made by other companies but the owners of the Butt-Out have done a good job of defending their product from copy. The Butt-Out patent would probably make a good example to follow in persuing patent protection. Any comments?


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## decalman (Sep 27, 2011)

Squawsach said:


> If I see something I like and I can make it, I'm going to copy it. I've been doing it for years. I don't see the need to spend $XXXX.XX on something I can make for far less. Don't get bent out of shape about it. Most products are produced for people who couldn't change their own tire. This is not that kind of crowd. If you don't want the DIY crowd to copy your stuff, keep it to yourself.





Squawsach said:


> If I see something I like and I steal it, I'm going to steal it. I've been doing it for years. I don't see the need to spend $XXXX.XX on something I can steal for far less. Don't get bent out of shape about it. Most products are produced for people who couldn't change their own tire. This is not that kind of crowd. If you don't want the DIY crowd to steal your stuff, keep it to yourself.[/QUOTE
> Amazing how one word can make a difference. If you raise cattle and I am hungry and can't afford to buy a side of beef is it o.k. if I just steal a couple for me and maybe a couple friends.
> Like it or not thieves are thieves. If I were a thief for years I darn sure wouldn't brag about and put it in writing.


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## Jovush (Sep 28, 2006)

You mean if I happen to have the ability to produce an exact copy of say.... An iPod down in my basement shop and do so for my own personal use, I am guilty of theft? I can understand if I sell these iPod copies by the boatloads for profit I would expect a bit of legal correspondence, but I should be able to make all I want as long as I don't cut into Apples business. Heck, I'd even make a few for friends if I was able. I believe it's a bit misguided to imply if you can make instead of buying it you are stealing. If so, take me away, IM A THIEF. And proud of my DIY thievery.


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## Squawsach (Apr 26, 2008)

decalman said:


> Squawsach said:
> 
> 
> > If I see something I like and I steal it, I'm going to steal it. I've been doing it for years. I don't see the need to spend $XXXX.XX on something I can steal for far less. Don't get bent out of shape about it. Most products are produced for people who couldn't change their own tire. This is not that kind of crowd. If you don't want the DIY crowd to steal your stuff, keep it to yourself.[/QUOTE
> ...


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## decalman (Sep 27, 2011)

Jovush: Stealing is stealing. Before lawyers got involved, people were shot for stealing."horse thieves" In some countries, people today have their hand cut off for stealing. It doesn't mattter if it is an object or intellectual property. If you someone doesn't own something and decides to take it anyway, regardless if it is just for them and their friends or not, it is still stealing. Like it or not, that is what is is. We can rationalize any way we want. A thief is a Thief is a thief.


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## Dorafo (Mar 2, 2008)

decalman said:


> Jovush: Stealing is stealing. Before lawyers got involved, people were shot for stealing."horse thieves" In some countries, people today have their hand cut off for stealing. It doesn't mattter if it is an object or intellectual property. If you someone doesn't own something and decides to take it anyway, regardless if it is just for them and their friends or not, it is still stealing. Like it or not, that is what is is. We can rationalize any way we want. A thief is a Thief is a thief.


 so you bought everything you have? you have never improvised something to get you by? lets say I make a chair out of a log just a log no special cuts or anything and patent it and you go camping and grap a log that you cut and sit on it would that make you a thief? from what your saying you would be ... if i decide to make somethin in my garage to use for personal even if there is someone with a patent on the same item does not make you a thief, if you sell said item for profit then yes you can be held accountable but if you charge for your material you cant.


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## decalman (Sep 27, 2011)

Dorafo said:


> so you bought everything you have? you have never improvised something to get you by? lets say I make a chair out of a log just a log no special cuts or anything and patent it and you go camping and grap a log that you cut and sit on it would that make you a thief? from what your saying you would be ... if i decide to make somethin in my garage to use for personal even if there is someone with a patent on the same item does not make you a thief, if you sell said item for profit then yes you can be held accountable but if you charge for your material you cant.


Marty that sounds like my kid. He rationalizes everything. But he is only 14 and still gets his azz beat if he deserves it. If it is not yours and you take it, it is stealing. You are forgetting the fact that someone else came up with the idea, which isn't worth a cent till he tried it and spent the time to figure out the best way and angle etc., and then spent the money to patent. Call it what you want, rationalize any way you can. Stealing is stealing and Thieves are thieves. bragging about it is just ignorant.


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## Maui Rhino (Mar 13, 2010)

Decalman, I don't disagree with you, but according to the patent laws, making an item for personal use is not stealing. Making it and selling it is, as stated in paragraph C of Archerynutt's original post.


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## Jovush (Sep 28, 2006)

Ok, now I get it, I'm gonna hafta tell my theiving wife to stop making her special handmade soaps because she is taking money directly out of the pockets of the P&G company. I guess I need to make a soap run to Walmart for some Irish Spring restore good karma. Wait, then there's that little wire I bent into a crude paperclip in a time of need............using this logic I guess I stoled a paperclip too. I guess the only thing to do is to dismantle the DIY Equipment thread all together. 

Honor among thieves .....


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## thirdhandman (Nov 2, 2009)

Jovush: I doubt that your wife is stealing because the patent on her soap is well expired as well as the patent used in making paper clips. No worries.













I have chosen not to patent any of my products. I don't have the money to defend a patent infringement. I have chosen a different route this time. I created a new way to make a good looking, lifetime target and posted it here in the DIY. So far this has worked out great. I have seen ten different ways to build a diy target since my posting and all were using my Third Hand DIY Range Target Skins. I sincerely hope everyone steals this idea and uses my skins.


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## Lowlevlflyer (Aug 2, 2011)

decalman said:


> Marty that sounds like my kid. He rationalizes everything. But he is only 14 and still gets his azz beat if he deserves it. If it is not yours and you take it, it is stealing. You are forgetting the fact that someone else came up with the idea, which isn't worth a cent till he tried it and spent the time to figure out the best way and angle etc., and then spent the money to patent. Call it what you want, rationalize any way you can. Stealing is stealing and Thieves are thieves. bragging about it is just ignorant.


Well then, according to your logic and way of thinking, there must be a TON of thieves in this old world, because just about EVERY invention in America has been copied in some form or fashion over the years.


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## Jovush (Sep 28, 2006)

Way to find that niche market Thirdhand, I plan on stealing an idea for a lifetime target soon and when I get my dimensions I will be, get this, purchasing a target skin from you.


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## thirdhandman (Nov 2, 2009)

Jovush: I found a new way if the target is to be put indoors. take 2 boards 2"x12" by 5' and two boards 2" x12"x33". Put one board 33" at top between the two boards 5' and screw it together.Then take the other 33" and put it between the 5' board at a distance of 36" from the top board to the bottom of the second board. This will give you a frame 3'x3' on a 5' base. Then on the bottom Triangulate a 2"x4" by 3' on each side to steady frame. Then put 2 wheels on the back of the 2"x4" to roll the target.
This will make a great indoor lifetime range target for pro shops.


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## Dorafo (Mar 2, 2008)

decalman said:


> Marty that sounds like my kid. He rationalizes everything. But he is only 14 and still gets his azz beat if he deserves it. If it is not yours and you take it, it is stealing. You are forgetting the fact that someone else came up with the idea, which isn't worth a cent till he tried it and spent the time to figure out the best way and angle etc., and then spent the money to patent. Call it what you want, rationalize any way you can. Stealing is stealing and Thieves are thieves. bragging about it is just ignorant.


ok by your logic your reciving stolen property if you drive a car, truck or anything else there are countless parts that are patented by a competitors company that are close if not similar or the same part that all they did is changed a material type and have a patent pending(but is a direct knock off of onther companys part) that is steling and you bought it so your recieving stolen property? your right i can rationalize it however i want it, i just know how the laws work being in criminal justice helps with that. takeing a product and makeing it better or for your own use is not theft if your selling the product for profit and your infringing on a patent is wrong i agree. and implying that your gonna beat my azz because i sound like your kid who rationalizes everything is against AT rules ,yes thats how i took that weather it was ment that way or not, it has no bearing on the discusion.


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## decalman (Sep 27, 2011)

Jovush said:


> You mean if I happen to have the ability to produce an exact copy of say.... An iPod down in my basement shop and do so for my own personal use, I am guilty of theft? I can understand if I sell these iPod copies by the boatloads for profit I would expect a bit of legal correspondence, but I should be able to make all I want as long as I don't cut into Apples business. Heck, I'd even make a few for friends if I was able. I believe it's a bit misguided to imply if you can make instead of buying it you are stealing. If so, take me away, IM A THIEF. And proud of my DIY thievery.


Like it or not this is the law.http://www.uspto.gov/web/offices/pac..._U_S_C_271.htm


35 U.S.C. 271 Infringement of patent.

(a) Except as otherwise provided in this title, whoever without authority makes, uses, offers to sell, or sells any patented invention, within the United States, or imports into the United States any patented invention during the term of the patent therefor, infringes the patent.
one or ten doesnt make a difference. what does make a difference is it is stealing like it or not. If apple ever came after you they could make your life miserable.


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