# Maitland Zeus II with shoot thru riser.



## Sagittarius (May 22, 2002)

Talked with Rob earlier this year after reading where he stated, he might be interested in building a bow with a shoot thru riser and calling it the Zeus II in the future.
When I first contacted Rob, he said the Zeus II was on the back burner but he might build one in the future.
Contacted Rob again the other day, out of curiosity, and asked about the Zeus II again.
Rob stated, a Zeus II would be expensive to build but wasn't opposed if the interest was there.
So, here's a chance for Maitland fans to vote on whether or not they would be interested.
Of course, I would prefer a Zeus II with a 3 track cam and shoot thru harness to go along with the shoot thru riser but that's just me. 
I think a Zeus II with a shoot thru riser would be pretty cool and serious competition to Hoyt's Elite series bows.
What do you guys think; would you be interested in a Zeus II ?
Vote positive only If you're really interested; we don't want Rob building a new bow, if it's not going to sell.


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## Sagittarius (May 22, 2002)

Come on, Guys.
I know, there are more Maitland fans than this.
At least vote on the poll, for or against.


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## maitland (Dec 30, 2008)

The Zeus is the most solid built riser to date. There is not a more solid riser on the market as we speak. This platform was designed for the professional target archer and no corners were cut. The FEA analysis and testing done with the Zeus has proven that. Based on my testing, a shoot through design has an advantage but so minute that there is not a human alive that can out shoot the current design. Now to the mental part of the game.... A perception that a riser has equal balance and equal torque increases confidence and therefore mentally eliminates all preconceived doubts that an open shelf riser has a disadvantage on a full containment riser. remember 10% equipment 90% ability. A shoot through riser has a balance advantage but only on paper! This is a repetition game only accomplished with the gray matter between your ears, not the equipment in your hand. A shoot through riser will increase the mental game with no doubt as it builds confidence in the equipment you are using. Some would find the feel of this riser more pleasing for sure and that builds confidence and in turn increases your score. Now lets talk about a shoot through cable design. Torque is minimized but in what fashion.... Remember what I said about repetition. As long as every shot was treated equally, cable pressure should not hamper your shot. A shoot through cable design balances the thrust on the cables and torque on the riser, but does it increase consistency? Absolutely not! Mentally yes, physically no. I would like to hear your opinions on this as this is an interest to me and other archers wanting to improve their game.


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## Bow1 (Sep 14, 2004)

I would be interested in shooting one. Paul as per our conversations about my new toy, I am definately interested in seeing this design with the 3 track cam system.


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## Sagittarius (May 22, 2002)

Rob,

I assume, you have drawn a bow back with a 3 track cam ?
JMO, there is nothing ever made that feels so wonderful. 
If you slowly draw any bow with a cable or roller guard with an open hand and long stabilizer, watch the stabilizer torque out of position.
Maybe, your bows are timed perfectly and don't do it but it does happen with lots of bows with cable and roller guards.
I feel, limb failures are reduced with a 3 track cam because of the zero torque with the system.
Stewart Bowman has only replaced one limb set on his bows in the past 17 years !
The fact that they're Barnsdale Ultra Carbon limbs doesn't hurt but that's a remarkable record that would never have been achieved with other cams systems, imo.
All components have a better life cycle with a 3 track cam whether it's bushings/bearings, strings, spacers, and limbs.
You're correct in that it's a mental game and all cams, even those with torque are repeatable, but, given the opportunity, I would still prefer the "minute" advantage of the 3 track cam.
But, in truth, I consider 3 track advantages far more than "minute" .
There is much less chance of string and cable stretch that can rob you of accuracy despite how repeatable torque induced cam systems are in comparison.
Three track bows rarely, if ever, go out of tune.
My Bowman 3 track bows haven't come close to going out of tune the past 7 years.
Have never had a bow that tunes a target arrow or hunting arrow with a broadhead as fast and positive as those shot out of my Bowman and Renegade 8 3 track bows.
That said, unless the poll starts swinging in a big way in favor of and your fans start telling you they want one, I would not recommend building a Zeus II with a shoot thru riser. 
I don't think the world is ready for it. 
Besides, your bows are great in their own right. 
Last, I believe your bows are, indeed, solidly built but my Bowman bows with their massive "I" bean construction and my Renegade 8 with its 7000 series aluminum construction are hell for strong built too.
I believe, they would do very well in a beat to destruction test against any other risers, lol. 
The Moon bow that was milled and forged from an 85lb block was hell for strong too and would do well in a beat down test.


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## maitland (Dec 30, 2008)

Sag, I just enjoy the tech talk with ya.:wink:


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## highwaynorth (Feb 17, 2005)

Before everybody goes and gets Rob side tracked on a shoot through riser. Lets give him a chance to get
those speed cams finished up.(hint hint).


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## Sagittarius (May 22, 2002)

maitland said:


> Sag, I just enjoy the tech talk with ya.:wink:



I enjoy talking with you too, Rob. 
You have some great ideas.
I really think you should go ahead and finish that fabulous looking crossbow you were thinking of building last year too. :thumbs_up 
OK, guys, where are the rest of the votes for the poll ? :noidea:


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## white.greg (Mar 15, 2007)

Glad I saw this poll today. I too contacted Rob about a shoot through Zeus, but my interest was shoot through cables only. Like you, I think the 3 track binary is the cam of choice. Leave the riser alone and have an option for shoot thru cables.


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## Sagittarius (May 22, 2002)

white.greg said:


> Glad I saw this poll today. I too contacted Rob about a shoot through Zeus, but my interest was shoot through cables only. Like you, I think the 3 track binary is the cam of choice. Leave the riser alone and have an option for shoot thru cables.




That would be a great option too, Greg.


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## white.greg (Mar 15, 2007)

Sagittarius said:


> That would be a great option too, Greg.


The 3 track binary needs a cable spreader, but that's easily done with an offset rod in the normal cable guide rod hole. That rod is centered between the cables and has a spool on it, looks just like a thread spool with a cable on each side. The spool rotates and slides forward and back as you draw and shoot, size the spool for the fletchings your using. And............. as an added bonus put a string stopper on the end of the rod and you get a two for one.


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## KurtVL (Nov 22, 2005)

im shooting better than ever with my zeus just the way it is.

I have more confidence than ever that ill be in the white (im a work in progress) 5 spot

I like the zeus, my retribution is just a pleasure to shoot as well.

My only constructive criticism is weight, lets make'm a little lighter, but not so much that it compromises the stiffness and strength of the riser.


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## white.greg (Mar 15, 2007)

Sagittarius said:


> That would be a great option too, Greg.


I just looked at your OK Archery bow and realized your talking about a different 3 track cam system, no cable spreader needed, but would you need different limbs? Or......... are the cam pins just extended out beyond the limb to pick-up the cable? To me the 3 track binary is simpler, but then again I don't fully understand the one you are suggesting.


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## white.greg (Mar 15, 2007)

KurtVL said:


> im shooting better than ever with my zeus just the way it is.
> 
> I have more confidence than ever that ill be in the white (im a work in progress) 5 spot
> 
> ...


I agree with the weight issue as well. I had a Bowtech Commander and the weight was one of the reasons I sold it. Seems to me that a riser works like an "I" beam, the top and bottom cords do all the work and the web just holds them apart, it can and is much thinner. So.... on a bow riser you should be able to thin the middle along with the cut-outs.


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## Hoythunter01 (Oct 23, 2005)

Rob, your interested in something only if it can be improved. I think you pretty much summ'd it up in your first post to Sag.

The Zeus now is perfect in every way. Finding a bow case to accomodate the Mythical God is another story.


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## Hoythunter01 (Oct 23, 2005)

I did however vote "NO"


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## Sagittarius (May 22, 2002)

white.greg said:


> I just looked at your OK Archery bow and realized your talking about a different 3 track cam system, no cable spreader needed, but would you need different limbs? Or......... are the cam pins just extended out beyond the limb to pick-up the cable? To me the 3 track binary is simpler, but then again I don't fully understand the one you are suggesting.


Greg,

I knew you were referring to a different style than the 3 track but thought it was ok too if that's what you prefer. 
I believe, my old pal Walks with a Gimp uses that style and likes it. 
There are several different styles of 3 track cams available.
Don't know which style would be compatible with a Maitland bow.
Doubt the Renegade 8's cams would be but there are others that would come close.
Hell, I'm sure, Rob could design some, if need be. 
The advantages of the 3 track can be found in my reply to Rob above and my Renegade 8 and Bowman Accu-Riser reviews.


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## Sagittarius (May 22, 2002)

Hoythunter01 said:


> I did however vote "NO"


Heck, that's OK. 
This was just a feeling out thread to see if there was any interest in a Zeus II with shoot thru riser.
If you want to stop Rob from profiting from another bow, so be it. :shocked: 
Check out the Aurora cases from Lancaster Archery for your Maitland bow.
They're expensive but they're awesome. :thumbs_up
http://www.lancasterarchery.com/index.php?cPath=52_468


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## NEVADAPRO (Jul 5, 2007)

maitland said:


> The Zeus is the most solid built riser to date. There is not a more solid riser on the market as we speak. This platform was designed for the professional target archer and no corners were cut. The FEA analysis and testing done with the Zeus has proven that. Based on my testing, a shoot through design has an advantage but so minute that there is not a human alive that can out shoot the current design. Now to the mental part of the game.... A perception that a riser has equal balance and equal torque increases confidence and therefore mentally eliminates all preconceived doubts that an open shelf riser has a disadvantage on a full containment riser. remember 10% equipment 90% ability. A shoot through riser has a balance advantage but only on paper! This is a repetition game only accomplished with the gray matter between your ears, not the equipment in your hand. A shoot through riser will increase the mental game with no doubt as it builds confidence in the equipment you are using. Some would find the feel of this riser more pleasing for sure and that builds confidence and in turn increases your score. Now lets talk about a shoot through cable design. Torque is minimized but in what fashion.... Remember what I said about repetition. As long as every shot was treated equally, cable pressure should not hamper your shot. A shoot through cable design balances the thrust on the cables and torque on the riser, but does it increase consistency? Absolutely not! Mentally yes, physically no. I would like to hear your opinions on this as this is an interest to me and other archers wanting to improve their game.


Rob, the one BIG advantage that I see in a true shoot-thru riser design is the ability to design it in such a way as to be able to offer a Pro Shop a single bow, that with just a few minutes in a bow press, could be shot as a left OR right handed bow! Move the cable guard to the to the opposite side of the riser, switch the limbs top to bottom OR cams top to bottom (depending on how you feel about limb design...top to bottom). There is also a small safety issue solved with a shoot-thru design (although most that would shoot this bow...and I emphasize...MOST, would not have this particular issue anyway!!). If there is ANY improvement, equipment or mentally, in the shoot-thru design, I think it would be an advantage to said design. By the way, I have never spoken with you but I really love the design of your bows and the way you went about feeling the need to create them! You saw that bows could be improved...and THEN you went about finding out how! Most design products first, then spend years trying to make it work!! Truly nice bows!! God bless, Todd


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## DimeTimeTom (Aug 20, 2008)

honestly im not a fan of shoot through risers, or the price to build and buy them. 

but the 3 track cam could be an idea, but i think the smoothness of these bows are phenominal to begin with. 
A lighter model would be nice, but we are dealing with alot of riser.

BUT i am open to any possabilities dealing with maitland, they really are the bow ive been looking for for a while.

I voted for the 3rd option, if the price is right i would try it for sure.


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## white.greg (Mar 15, 2007)

I went from a Bowtech Commander to an Elite XLR. (I have a 31.25" DL and need a long ata bow)

The Commander weighed 4.95 lbs and the cam lean was awful, but the center pivot system was soooooo quite and shock free.

Then I switched to the Elite XLR which is 4.25 lbs and uses the 2 track binary. The weight is good and the cam lean is minimal. It shoots well but it is not quiet or shock free.

What would cause me to pull the trigger on a new bow, well maybe some of the features of the Maitland Zeus. Center pivot design, long riser tech. straight grip. I know the riser on a center pivot bow will weigh more than my Elite, but lighter is better, 4.5lbs would be great, a deal breaker, no, but it would help. The shoot thru cables would be the icing on the cake. 

If we were discussing the next Bowtech, this conversation would be a waste of time because they would never be here asking for our input. But we are talking Maitland and Rob is here considering our input. So......... might as well ask for what you want, might not get it, but you never know until you ask.

Thanks for listening (or reading) Rob.


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## NEVADAPRO (Jul 5, 2007)

Ttt


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## USNarcher (Oct 12, 2002)

I didn't read all of this but like Rob said this is one beefy risor. The only reason to have the Elite series type shoot through risers is to stop the riser from torquing at full draw. Now a shoot through cable system may be a slight improvement. If it's posible


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## USNarcher (Oct 12, 2002)

Hoythunter01 said:


> Rob, your interested in something only if it can be improved. I think you pretty much summ'd it up in your first post to Sag.
> 
> The Zeus now is perfect in every way. Finding a bow case to accomodate the Mythical God is another story.





Sagittarius said:


> Heck, that's OK.
> This was just a feeling out thread to see if there was any interest in a Zeus II with shoot thru riser.
> If you want to stop Rob from profiting from another bow, so be it. :shocked:
> Check out the Aurora cases from Lancaster Archery for your Maitland bow.
> ...


Yep Zues fits perfect in the Aurora and the Brownell


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## white.greg (Mar 15, 2007)

Companies go through a lot of effort to eliminate cam lean and poor nock travel, when a shoot through cable set-up solves all the problems in a simple elegant way.

Here is the effort G5 is using. http://g5prime.com/technology.asp


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## white.greg (Mar 15, 2007)

Here's a quote from Copterdoc, another AT shoot thru advocate:

I'm not so sure that it's strictly a cable guard vs shoot-thru issue. Bearings pressed in the cam not 90deg to the axle, a weak limb tip on one side, axle holes not drilled perfectly straight can also be main culprits for cam lean. 
Yes, it is the entire issue!

Manufacturers are not pressing bearings in sideways, drilling axle holes with cordless drills, and installing corkscrews for limbs. They are ALL making bows, with unbalanced, 2 and 4 track cams, and offset cable guards. 

The way you calculate the TOTAL mechanical advantage of the cam, is by measuring the ratio of string/fed-to-cable/reeled.

All cams transmit load through the axles.

The load is always applied on the plane of the cable/string. So, in order to find the starting and stopping points, you need to "draw a line" from the string, to the axle at 90 degrees to the plane of the string.

Mark the location at that point on the string, and draw the bow back with a draw board. Repeat the same measurement at full draw and measure the distance between the two marks. The difference in ATA from brace to full draw, tells you how much cable was reeled in. That will give you the total ratio of mechanical advantage.

That ratio, will be the inverse of the peak draw weight-to-peak limb load. For most modern bows, the cams feed out 3-4 inches of string, for every inch of cable reeled in. That means a 70# bow, has about 245# of total limb load at full draw.

Now, that seems like a lot, but it doesn't even factor in let-off!

We all want let-off right? Well, everything you take from the string, goes right to the cables. If you have 80% let-off, that means that while the string is under 15# of load, the cables are under 230!

At brace, they were all at about the same amount of load. At full draw, the situation changed a bit didn't it?

In order to provide a 30" draw length, a short ATA bow needs to feed out more string, than a long ATA bow does. However, since the total limb compression is limited by the amount of deflection the limbs can withstand, the cams can't be made to reel in 3 extra inches of cable.

That is why short ATA bows, are harder to tune. The popularity of them has increased over the last 10 years, and with it, the cam lean "phenomenon", has been realized. 

The only way to solve the problem, is to use cams with an odd number of tracks, or attachment points. 

3, or 5 track cams, can maintain lateral balance during the entire draw cycle, including let-off. 2, or 4 track cams, cannot. It is impossible.

When you add the fact that the cable guard itself exacerbates the problem, and adds to the issue by not allowing the cables to pull the limb tips directly at each other, you might possibly realize why these bows are so hard to tune!

There is only one real solution.

You have to shoot the arrow, through the cables.


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## white.greg (Mar 15, 2007)

Here's how Mathews gets the weight out. Thinning out the web as I said in an earlier post.


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## white.greg (Mar 15, 2007)

If riser torque and cam lean are non-issues, then why do so many bow makers work so hard to counter act it??
Bowtech uses it's flexguard shown here. http://www.bowtecharchery.com/index.php

A shoot through cable system completely eliminates the problem in a simple and elegant way. Without any twisting forces in the system, the riser can be made lighter. 

At full draw there is over 200lbs of stress on the cables and the cable gusrd is using that stress to twist the limb tips and also riser. All of this has to be compensated for, but with a shoot through it does not. No torque and lighter riser.

Seems like a no brainer to me.


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## KurtVL (Nov 22, 2005)

white.greg said:


> If riser torque and cam lean are non-issues, then why do so many bow makers work so hard to counter act it??
> Bowtech uses it's flexguard shown here. http://www.bowtecharchery.com/index.php
> 
> A shoot through cable system completely eliminates the problem in a simple and elegant way. Without any twisting forces in the system, the riser can be made lighter.
> ...


depending on the system, PSE has a massive amount of force in the cables, but so does the destroyer system (destroyer might even have more load on the cables than anything else)

the destroyer system would be one of the easiest to convert to a shoot thru and probably would be amazingly elegant


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## Sagittarius (May 22, 2002)

It has puzzled me that the archery world hasn't embraced the 3 track cam with shoot thru harness over the years. :dontknow:
OK Archery has seen the light while other manufacturers ignore it. 
It is the greatest system the world never knew.
Someday in the future, the light will come on. :idea1:


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## white.greg (Mar 15, 2007)

KurtVL said:


> depending on the system, PSE has a massive amount of force in the cables, but so does the destroyer system (destroyer might even have more load on the cables than anything else)
> 
> the destroyer system would be one of the easiest to convert to a shoot thru and probably would be amazingly elegant


How would that conversion be done? I'm not familar with the destroyer's cam set-up, it says it's binary but the cables attach to the limbs (on the top cam anyway, can't see the bottom cams in the photo) doesn't seem like that's binary??


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## USNarcher (Oct 12, 2002)

I put this in the other post in Genpop. As for shoot through riser no way. The cost alone would put Rob out. Besides there is very little market for shoot through anything. Target archers mostly and only about 10% of those at best. I sold 78 shoot through systems for the 08 Commander. And they made that bow shoot great.

Are you talking about a shoot through cable system or shoot through riser. 

Shoot through riser there is no need. Unlike Bowtech and others the Maitlands do not flex at full draw. That is why BT went to the flex guard to try and get rid of riser flex. And all the manufacturers that have shoot through risers are doing the same.

As for a shoot through cable system. Very easily done and as soon as I get my new Zues I will have it done. All you have to do is run the split buss down below the grip use a splitter and your done. If guys really want to convert thier Maitlands to a shoot through cable system I can probably put together a kit for it after the first of the year. Depends on demand.


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