# USA Archery Adult Achievement Pins



## Jim C (Oct 15, 2002)

no one in our club ever asked about them. I shot the scores sufficient for the top award-never bothered. I was more into winning state and regional events.


----------



## Warbow (Apr 18, 2006)

Jim C said:


> no one in our club ever asked about them. I shot the scores sufficient for the top award-never bothered. I was more into winning state and regional events.


They won't appeal to all people or programs, to be sure, nor need they do so. They certainly aren't a substitute for winning state and regional events. I think that interest in earning these AAP levels will vary not only by whether people even know the AAP awards exist, but also by the attitude of program directors towards the AAP awards.


----------



## Beastmaster (Jan 20, 2009)

For our particular club, the jury is still out on the AAP. 

I'm in agreement with Jim - I'd rather shoot state/regional stuff and not bother with anything else. A lot of other adult archers at the shop I teach for agree.


----------



## Warbow (Apr 18, 2006)

Beastmaster said:


> For our particular club, the jury is still out on the AAP.
> 
> I'm in agreement with Jim - I'd rather shoot state/regional stuff and not bother with anything else. A lot of other adult archers at the shop I teach for agree.


I'd say that even if people don't actively participate in the AAP Awards program, the awards scores could be a useful benchmark to recreational target shooters--but only if the scores are set intelligently to represent real world challenges. Right now, the scores seem to be set more to feature nice round numbers (the NAA has said they will fix the new trad scores which currently require trad shooters to break the 15 year standing STAR FITA Record, a fix which I'm told will be implemented soon.)


----------



## BobCo19-65 (Sep 4, 2009)

I think they are kind of cool. I enjoy shooting with my son and now we both have something to work on together.


----------



## alanmcdonley (May 15, 2009)

BobCo19-65 said:


> ...something to work on together.


But will it demotivate him if you get to a level before your son? Could be trouble with some kids.


----------



## BobCo19-65 (Sep 4, 2009)

Not too concerned. But it could be a valid point in some circumstances. I'll keep an eye out for it though.

Achievement pin scores are quite a bit different between the JOAD and Adult Achievement pins. - And I'm not that good.


----------



## Diane Watson (Oct 12, 2002)

Thank you for your interest in the Adult Program. There is time being spent on the program with the intentions of making the scores of each level within a reasonable achievement. Mr. Hughes - We are taking your comments into consideration. We are going from 6 levels of achievement in the old program to a possibility of 11 levels. There are 3 classifications that we are looking at Traditional, Recurve and Compound. If any of you have further comments, please feel free to send me an email at [email protected]. 

Diane Watson 
[email protected]
727/389-3264


----------



## JaMag (Apr 13, 2007)

No Offense Diane,
I believe your intentions to be noble and that you have worked diligently on this project. However, I believe the AAD program to be more of a waste of time and money by US Archery. I also believe this program is a way of patronizing the vast majority of the adults that are being quickly squeezed out of the competition field by US Archery due to the increased number of required qualification events to make the US Archery team.

My suggestion would be to take the money used on this project and apply it toward higher payouts at the USAT events throughout the year. Make it financially viable and financially motivating for more members to attend USAT events nation wide.

Larger prize money would be much more of a motivating factor than pins ever would be.

Let the JOAD kids have the pins. Youth archers need to set motivation goals and achievement levels since they're still in physical and mental developmental years. 

I don't mean to be too negative about this, but let's be realistic. 
Adults know the difference. 

Merry Christmas everyone!
-James


----------



## Warbow (Apr 18, 2006)

JaMag said:


> No Offense Diane,
> I believe your intentions to be noble and that you have worked diligently on this project. However, I believe the AAD program to be more of a waste of time and money by US Archery. I also believe this program is a way of patronizing the vast majority of the adults that are being quickly squeezed out of the competition field by US Archery due to the increased number of required qualification events to make the US Archery team.


I strongly disagree.

From your earlier post critical of USA Archery eliminating the Indoor Nationals from the USAT and from your post above I surmise that you are a highly competitive archer with hopes to make the USAT. The AAP is not for you. It is not a substitute for local, regional or national competition. Nor does it sap large amounts of money from USA Archery that could be used to make huge purses for target archery competitions. So the AAP Awards program does not "patronize" you or the "vast majority of adults" in any way. Nor are you the only kind of archer. It is not all about you.

The AAP is a program that helps bridge the gap between kids archery programs including JOAD and the elite archery program at USA archery. It targets a population that is currently under-served by USA Archery: non-elite adult archers. The Adult Archery Program serves to train adults interested in archery and bring them into the USA Archery fold. It offers programs a number of tools to aid them, including instructor training and the Adult Awards program. I've seen the AAP program work as a fun and effective motivator for one of our local college recreational archery programs which has a monthly "achievement shoot" to try for the various awards levels. The Awards give the students benchmarks of achievement to aim for. Most of those students will never compete at large archery competitions, nor want to, but some will. Both kinds of archers should be served by USA Archery--the more enthusiastic archers the better for archery. The recreational archers might even become fans of competition even if they don't compete themselves. It is for programs like this that I wish the AAP Awards to be based on practical and real-world scores, to give archers both achievable goals and real challenges in a realistic progression--I've seen people drop out of shooting the awards program based on the un-realistic scores for barebow. Hence my advocacy for improving the scores.

So, JaMag, the AAP isn't for you, but please don't try and take it away from everybody else. Remember that one of the reasons that target archery is marginalized as a sport isn't lack of competitors, but lack of general interest in archery. Programs like the AAP may not benefit you directly, but you do and will benefit indirectly by programs that help teach the fun and enjoyment of archery to a larger population. The AAP is one such program.

And people shouldn't get me wrong. I've pointed out a some issues with the AAP scores in the past and the ones that USA Archery is currently working on fixing, but I do that because I fully **support** the AAP and want to be the best it can be to fill a much needed niche in USA Archery's line of programs. So I'm very glad that Ms. Watson is working even now to improve the AAP.


----------



## JaMag (Apr 13, 2007)

> I strongly disagree.
> 
> From your earlier post critical of USA Archery eliminating the Indoor Nationals from the USAT and from your post above I surmise that you are a highly competitive archer with hopes to make the USAT. The AAP is not for you. It is not a substitute for local, regional or national competition. Nor does it sap large amounts of money from USA Archery that could be used to make huge purses for target archery competitions. So the AAP Awards program does not "patronize" you or the "vast majority of adults" in any way. Nor are you the only kind of archer. It is not all about you.


Warbow,
I agree, it's not all about me.
However, this is the medium for me to log my concerns, is it not? Therefore, my initial response to the AAD initative, is about me as it pertains to me. Others are free to disagree or have their own opinions of the program.
And if there are those adults out there that enjoy the program, then that's fantastic.

My concern, as it pertains to myself and (possibly) to many other adults who are highly competitive, is that this (AAD) and (it's timing) is a bone thrown to us to distract us from the fact that US Archery is making it more difficult to achieve the goals that we have set for ourselves by eliminating Indoor Nationals from the ranking system and requiring another qualifying event as well. Which makes it that much more difficult for everyone except for those who have the financial backing... such as the RA's and the current US team members.

But then again, this is really not the proper thread to discuss the larger issue here.
I would suggest we move this to the US Archery board of directors meeting thread.
-James


----------



## Warbow (Apr 18, 2006)

JaMag said:


> Warbow,
> I agree, it's not all about me.
> However, this is the medium for me to log my concerns, is it not? Therefore, my initial response to the AAD initative, is about me as it pertains to me. Others are free to disagree or have their own opinions of the program.


Of course. I think my main issue is that you cast the AAP as somehow being an either or with your desire for larger purses for indoor FITA competitions, but that isn't the case. It isn't AAP or large purses. There is no cache of money for you to appropriate if AAP is eliminated. Programs *pay* USA Archery to be a part of the AAP and the programs purchase each and every one of the award pins they hand out from USA Archery, presumably at a profit to USA Archery which helps pay the fairly minimal costs of administering the program. 

Eliminating the AAP would do nothing to help you with the goals you wish to achieve, and, if the AAP promotes general interest in archery that benefits USA Archery and competitions, then eliminating the AAP might actually do you indirect harm. So I disagree strongly with your earlier call to eliminate a program that doesn't affect you in anyway.



JaMag said:


> My concern, as it pertains to myself and (possibly) to many other adults who are highly competitive, is that this (AAD) and (it's timing) is a bone thrown to us to distract us from the fact that US Archery is making it more difficult to achieve the goals that we have set for ourselves by eliminating Indoor Nationals from the ranking system and requiring another qualifying event as well. Which makes it that much more difficult for everyone except for those who have the financial backing... such as the RA's and the current US team members.


You are not the first competitor in this forum to mistakenly think the AAP is meant as some sort of substitute for competition. It isn't. And it seems pretty clear that the timing is entirely coincidental, and the announcement about the AAP program makes complete logical sense for the program and USA Archery. All they have done is make the AAP free standing rather than the awkward step child of JOAD and updated the number of awards tiers to make it more consistent with the way the JOAD award program works. This has zero to do with USA Archery/FITA sanctioned competitions, the ranking system or how one qualifies for the USAT. The AAP is not aimed at high level competitors like you or meant as any kind of substitute for local, regional or national competition. (Though I know a number of high level shooters who do attend and enjoy the casual completion and collegiality of of our local college's AAP achievement shoots.)

I think that part of the problem is that USA Archery has been so focused on competitions and elite archery and has such a history of ignoring non-competitive or non-elite archers that many competitors have come to assume that any announcement from USA Archery is about them, about competitions and elite archery. USA Archery is trying to expand and improve, and reach a larger population of archers, as it must to stay viable. The announcements about the AAP and the awards pins are not about competitions, USAT qualifiers, the RA program, or anything of that nature. They don't take away from you in any way, and they do promote archery and USA Archery in general, which, I think, is good for you, USA Archery and archery in general in the long run.


----------



## alanmcdonley (May 15, 2009)

Thank you WarBow. I feel understood. 

I have shot archery since I was eight years old, kept score for the World Archery Championship in Valley Forge, PA in late 60s, collected "6 Golds" pins and "20 at xx" pins (NFAA) as a teen, competed inter-collegiate some, then fell out of archery completely for thirty years. One morning at age 51, I awoke on a Saturday morning with a desire to shoot my old 1970 Hoyt Pro Medalist recurve again (had to buy it back on Ebay). Four years later, I won the Florida Indoor Adult Male Olympic Recurve class in 2007 (but not because I was so wonderful.) I realized that as an adult, I wanted to shoot and get better, but the reality is that I am older now. I live in a "zero-lot-line" community where the farthest I can shoot regularly is 6 yards with scaled targets, if I move my car out of the garage. Shooting in the garage is only an option in the cooler months of the year. To shoot farther, I have to calendar a plan, pack the car, drive 30 minutes, unlock the gate, drive through, re-lock the gate, sign-in, drive to the practice or field range and park, assemble the bow, put up a face, shoot for an hour, and then do the list in reverse. It ends up to be about 3-4 hours. That can only happen once a weekend, and sometimes not even that. To prepare for a tournament, or to tune the bow after a new string, means two four hour "events" each week for a month. It is just too much. Certainly I am never going to be competitive nationally.

I want to do archery, as a hobby, when it is comfortable temperatures, and be the best I can be without wrapping my life around archery. I am goal oriented, and now that I have bronze, silver, and gold medals from the Florida Senior Games in my age group...(87 archers this year and 65 took home awards), I'm looking for something that I can do locally, without dragging my wife around the country, and realistic to what I am willing to put into it. I'm not a great archer, and never will be, but I enjoy shooting, and I enjoy having a goal. That USA Archery Adult Achievement Program jacket sounds like a stretch that just might be achievable. 

I don't shoot animals, real, plastic, or paper, and I really can't stand getting the NFAA magazine with hunter trophy shots in the articles and advertisements. I want to belong to an archery organization that understands what I want from archery. For years I felt that USA Archery was only for kids, and for Olympic class recurve shooters. 

The Adult Achievement Program fits in between...where I am. The AAP got me to switch from NFAA to USA Archery this year, (with a little help from the dead animals in the NFAA magazine). It is $40 more expensive to belong to USA Archery than NFAA, there is no magazine, and there isn't a USA Archery affiliated club within four hours drive from me. So a little publicity, got USA Archery some extra money this year.

Thank you to all those that understand.

Alan


----------



## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Actually, from the perspective of a coach (and even if I were just actively progressing through my skills in target archery) I think this is a great program.

Every single archer has their own very personal motivations. What motivates you may not, and probably won't, be what motivates the next archer. I believe this program will motivate many adults to continue to shoot and work hard to develop their skill and understanding. And that's a great thing.

I am starting a new JOAD club where I now live, and have planned all along to incorporate the adult achievement program into that club. Several parents are very excited about this and I plan to use this tool to encourage parents and their kids to shoot together. I think it will work well.

John


----------



## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

alanmcdonley said:


> Thank you WarBow. I feel understood....
> 
> Thank you to all those that understand.
> 
> Alan


And BTW, great post Alan. You surely sum up the feelings of many adults who still enjoy participating in the sport of archery. 

Any suggestions or ideas for our Adult component of our budding JOAD club? Anyone out there already working with adults to progress through these achievement levels?


----------



## Warbow (Apr 18, 2006)

*Add a 40 meter outdoor goal*

One of our local community colleges uses the achievement awards as an optional adjunct to their credit recreational archery class that takes place at our local outdoor public range. As with many introductory archery courses, the students learn barebow recurve. Every month in addition to their regular sessions of instruction and practice they have an "achievement shoot" so archers can shoot for their goals. It has been a good system of benchmarks and motivation for the students, and the casual, competition-like shoot also attracts some of the local range users, competitive shooters and coaches who join in the encouraging, supportive atmosphere.

The primary issue that the achievement shoots have had is the increments of difficulty. The students manage to get the 30 meter outdoor barebow awards, but the transition from 30 meters to 50 meters is just too big a jump for many of the students. Part of the issue has been with a number of mistakes in the the trad/longbow/barebow score requirements, which have now been fixed. But part of the problem is that for many of the shooters the difference between 30 and 50 yards is too large. So the program director has created an unofficial 40 yard achievement goal to give the students a more gradual transition.

I think that some competitive shooters might scoff at the addition of a 40 yard score since in FITA Recurve 50 meters is one of the "close" distances, but for barebow recurve shooters in a beginning class, 50 meters is a long way off and I see no reason not to include one of the distances used in the Metric 900 round and in executive FITA Rounds, and I'd like to see the idea proposed in some fashion to become part of the official AAP awards. I think if a program director sees a need to invent a solution to an issue, they might just be making a solution that could benefit more than one program.


----------



## alanmcdonley (May 15, 2009)

*USA Archery Adult Achievement Pins - correction*

As I mentioned in the original post, since the order form did not have the second level, purple pin, I created it in the image I posted. This morning, after having the image as my desktop for so long, I noticed the purple pin had too many stars on it. Here is an improved image of the Adult Achievement Pins.






​


----------



## BobCo19-65 (Sep 4, 2009)

limbwalker said:


> Actually, from the perspective of a coach (and even if I were just actively progressing through my skills in target archery) I think this is a great program.
> 
> Every single archer has their own very personal motivations. What motivates you may not, and probably won't, be what motivates the next archer. I believe this program will motivate many adults to continue to shoot and work hard to develop their skill and understanding. And that's a great thing.
> 
> John


I think that is a great point. 

I can not speak from a Coach's standpoint, but as a parent and archer. I would start with the parents. Instead of having parents sitting around, try to get them involved. As you know people find archery a lot of fun once they try. It is also a great stress reliever IMO. 

My son and I started Olympic Style recurve in Nov 2009 (we have shot barebow for years before that for fun) and have worked together pretty much every step of the way. We have a coach that has been with us since April 2009. My son has been working through the pins for about a year now, but until now, I really had nothing similar. I like how the adult pins are much more difficult to get. Currently, my son has a Blue indoor but is within sight of his red. I have my black pin and missed my Blue pin last night by 7 points. Personally, I am very pleased.


----------



## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Bob-co, that's great. And a perfect example IMO of how the program can work. If this program was available back in '03 when my older kids were in JOAD, I would have started working on the adult pins at the same time, just as you are.

When we started our local JOAD this past few weeks, it was always with the understanding that we will have the adult program running at the same time. Several of the parents intend to shoot alongside their kids. I can't wait to see the dynamics of that. It will be great.

John.


----------



## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Thought I'd bring this thread back up because as a JOAD program leader, I LOVE the Adult Achievement program!

We have about 30 members in our club at the moment, with 8-10 adults in the AA program. At our "end of season" awards luncheon the other day, several of our newer adults (all parents of JOAD archers) received their pins and it was great. One archer, who just started this year, received SEVEN of his AA pins. Another parent is now at the same level as both of his daughters, and they are all working on their next pin together. 

Archery is a family sport. And nowhere is this better seen than when JOAD and AA archers shoot alongside one another. Seeing JOAD kids cheer for their parents when they earn a new pin is a very rewarding experience.

I will also add that these AA archers have become some of the best parent-volunteers you'd ever want. They understand the value of a well made target stand, how to mark a field, why an archer needs to be prepared ahead of time and have all their gear together, etc. better than most parents who sit by and just watch. To me, this is one of the real values of this program - creating more involved, educated and motivated JOAD parents.


----------



## fitadude (Jul 15, 2004)

We use this program at our club as well. LOVE IT. It does a great job of getting the parents involved and not sitting around just watching. This gets the Adults involved then some move forward in competing in bigger events in the state and region. We have close to 100 shooters in the summer and I am sure it is tuff for our secretary but He does a great job and the adults as well as the kids love the pins for their effort. I even have some myself!!!!


----------



## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

100 shooters!?! wow. That's fantastic!

For those who would poo-poo the AA program, I would say this. Earn your Gold Olympian pin both indoors and out, then come back and poo-poo it.


----------



## rambo-yambo (Aug 12, 2008)

I have not heard of this program before, where can I find more info about this? Is there a standardized score for each pin level (regardless of club)? Or is it varies from club to club. Based on my experience with martial arts, not all black belts are the same. I hope our archery system is better than that.


----------



## Warbow (Apr 18, 2006)

rambo-yambo said:


> I have not heard of this program before, where can I find more info about this? Is there a standardized score for each pin level (regardless of club)? Or is it varies from club to club. Based on my experience with martial arts, not all black belts are the same. I hope our archery system is better than that.


Achievement in archery is objective. We have quantitative scores to measure people by, unlike martial arts. And the adult achievement program, like JOAD, has uniform national achievement scores.

http://www.teamusa.org/USA-Archery/Programs/Adult-Archery-Achievement.aspx

However, it would be a mistake, IMO, to worry too much about the uniformity of the system. The achievement program is a great way to give people achievement benchmarks to aim for, and an excuse for clubs to be social and have fun.

One of the thing I love about archery is the social aspect, and combined JOAD/AAP programs allow families and individuals of all ages to shoot together for fun. If a super competitor like Limbwalker can enjoy the sociability of a JOAD/AAP then pretty much anybody can


----------



## rambo-yambo (Aug 12, 2008)

Warbow, I looked through the web site you proveided and did not see any criteria for each pin level, can you point me to the exactly location? 

To me, pin level is meaningless if it is not stanardized across diff clubs. For example, tennis has ranking to determine players level of competence. Is it the same for archery? Thanks,


----------



## rambo-yambo (Aug 12, 2008)

Is a star level indicates that you are proficient at certain distance? Fro example, a person with a 3 star pin is proficient at 30 yards? How do you define proficiency? If it is by average score, what is that score? Thanks,


----------



## Beastmaster (Jan 20, 2009)

Scoring matrix is here. 

http://www.teamusa.org/USA-Archery/Programs/~/~/~/media/46B55EC6970145E2854CA2DAA6F5DD50.ashx


----------



## rambo-yambo (Aug 12, 2008)

Thanks, that is what I was looking for.


----------



## Jane (Nov 3, 2004)

Be sure to look at the last line on the page. it says "to see scoring matrix, click here"


----------



## Warbow (Apr 18, 2006)

rambo-yambo said:


> Warbow, I looked through the web site you proveided and did not see any criteria for each pin level, can you point me to the exactly location?
> 
> To me, pin level is meaningless if it is not stanardized across diff clubs. For example, tennis has ranking to determine players level of competence. Is it the same for archery? Thanks,





rambo-yambo said:


> Is a star level indicates that you are proficient at certain distance? Fro example, a person with a 3 star pin is proficient at 30 yards? How do you define proficiency? If it is by average score, what is that score? Thanks,


RY, I think you are trying to force fit the Adult Achievement levels into being something they are not. They are not a ranking system for archers. Nobody I know of refers to someone in the Adult Achievement program as a Red Pin archer, or some such, though at the Olympian level, there are some pretty high scores required. This is not a system for determining handicaps or placing people in competitions. I think people who are competitors mistakenly try to see the AAP as being related to competition or competitive rankings. It is not.

The AAP is more about personal achievement, and earning recognition for your efforts and meeting your own goals at your local club.


----------



## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Agreed. 

Only real problem I have with the AA program is that their pins are cooler than the JOAD pins. LOL!

Okay, well, two problems. The AA program has barebow too.


----------



## Xerxes2 (Sep 25, 2012)

Kindda off-topic, but can I buy the pins being an archer from Paraguay?


----------



## Mulcade (Aug 31, 2007)

Well, I believe you have to be a member of USAArchery in order to order the black (JOAD) and above pins. If you're interested in them, try to order them. The worst they can do is cancel your order and not send them.


----------



## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Agreed. 

I've often thought that our JOAD and AA programs could be USArchery's finest export in a long time. I know it would catch on quickly in many countries.


----------



## Txseaaggie (Nov 10, 2012)

Looks like a cool program. I'm 24 and like the idea since I'm just starting out.


----------



## pattersonj11 (Jul 27, 2012)

That's pretty neat.


----------



## Warbow (Apr 18, 2006)

Xerxes2 said:


> Kindda off-topic, but can I buy the pins being an archer from Paraguay?


 You need to be a JOAD or AAP club to issue them to people AFAIK. I'm not sure what the USA Archery rules are about club nationality.


----------



## Marooned (May 3, 2012)

All I can say is that I think the Adult Achievement program is a GREAT program!!! It basically got me back into archery (along with my daughter & John Magera) after nearly a fifteen year absence from the sport. My daughter started shooting and we signed her up in John's (aka limbwalker) newly formed JOAD club. Actually we were part of the original group that started with John in the club that started with 7 members and now is over 30 members and still growing (almost weekly!). John convinced me to pick up a bow again and start shooting along with my daughter and that was one of the greatest things that has happened in my life. The AA program gives me a venue to shoot weekly along with other adults (& kids) that I would not have otherwise. Not only did I start shooting again, but I am the Secretary / Treasurer of the club and I am very active in all aspects of the club, along with several of the other AA parents. I even got my level 1 coaching certification and eventually plan on getting level 2. After nearly 2 years of being in the program, I am shooting well enough that I am planning on shooting in the Texas State Field Championships in May. Will I ever be an "elite" archer? Probably not, but that's not why I started in the program. But who knows, one day I might just get good enough to compete in some of the bigger tournaments. You never know. But I can say this.... without the AA program, none of this would have ever happened for me and that would have been a travesty in my opinion. I agree with one of the early posts in this thread, the AA program is not for elite archers, it is for people like me, that want to shoot and have fun, and develop my archery skills to the best of my ability. Finally, I just want to say a big "Thank You" to John for his willingness to help all of us in our club and also for motivating and supporting me in any and everyway possible to pursue higher goals in this sport.


----------



## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

And that right there folks, is what it's all about.


----------



## Marooned (May 3, 2012)

And how does the AA program help the elite archers and the likes?........ I'll answer you...... the money I spend on equipment (and those like me) help keep the archery companies stay in business. They make their money off of people like me, not the elites. I'm not dissing the elites, I'm just saying the elites get stuff for free or at cost. I pay retail.


----------

