# primitive archery season



## oldbhtrnewequip

Folks,

Some suggest that the archery hunting seasons should be determined by the difficulty level encountered based on equipment used. There are strict rules in place during shooting competitions to level the playing field between all participants. Should we be doing the same thing during hunting seasons?

The difficulty level is often, if not primarily, determined by the use of advancements in technology. Few if any will argue that THE most significant technological advancement of ALL time was the invention of the wheel. 

We could get many different opinions on releases, fiber optic sites, and many other components associated with bowhunting, but none as basic as the wheel.

Please vote on whether you would or would not support changes to our hunting laws to create an archery primitive weapons season based on "no wheels."

Assume that days will come out of existing bow seasons.


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## Free Range

Sorry I couldn’t vote on this one, but wanted to give an opinion anyway.
First your two options are too limited, if one votes yes you would be in essence saying you are for taking away what other hunters already enjoy. Saying no would imply you feel nothing is wrong with archery season. 

My vote would fall some where in between, leaning more towards yes but not all the way. I do feel technology should be limited in archery season, I feel the bow should be hand held and hand drawn, no locking mechanism, and let off should be limited, for hunting bows. I pretty much feel P&Y rules of fair chase are good guide lines with the expectation of their caving on the let off rule. 

I don’t feel there is any reason to chop up the season we now have. If the trad guys want their own season it should come from time that no one is hunting now, just like the x-bow guys, if they want their own season it should come before or after the regular bow season. Horning in on what others have fought for and maintained is selfish and irresponsible, it causes division and ill will amongst hunters.


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## vermonster13

For starters the "trad guys" are the ones who got bow seasons started to begin with, compound guys horned in on that season. Just as inline and other modern muzzleloaders have worked their way into black powder seasons that used to be primative seasons. Pope & Young, Fred Bear and Ben Pearson didn't have wheels on their bows. Now crossbows want in on these seasons and some of the very guys who where in the same boat 30 years ago with compounds are fighting them. Memories are short and people can be real funny.


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## centerx

The differences between a "primitive" bow and a X-bow is 45 yards… I can live with all the small little nuisances in equipment choices as long as it is still required to get in and close to animals


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## doctariAFC

When speaking in terms of archery season, no benefit exists in holding a "primitive only" season, as, no matter what bow you choose, be it long bow, recurve, compound, crossbow, or compound crossbow, ALL of these weapons are primitive when compared in the right context as to what "primitive" means. 

Let's remember, "primitive" in terms of hunting is non-modern firearm.

Archery season is for implements that are primitive by nature (throwing a stick with blades is far more primitive than even the roundball, patch and black powder) and without the "boom" of the firearm, deer do not "spook" into behavioral pattersn detrimental to archery hunting. ALL BOWS REQUIRE close proximity to be effective, and this I define as within 40 yards. True, a long bow or recurve may require closer proximity, but,. the presence of compound or crossbow hunters in the woods does not make the hunt exponentially more difficult for those hunting with long bow or recurve.

So, I say, so long as firearms remain out of early archery season, let the hunters choose their implement, including the crossbow.


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## ncboman

I wouldn't vote also, agreeing pretty much with Free Range.

I support the P&Y Club rules of fair chase and feel the xgun is an encroachment on our bow only seasons. I feel this encroachment opens the doors for more of the same as we are already seeing in some states with expanded hunts with various weapons by various groups.

The fact that this thread comes up is a testament to what P&Y has been saying all along.


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## aceoky

*Choice is good for unity!*

*"Memories are short and people can be real funny."*

You said "it all" with that(and the other points you've made) !! Some would have us to believe that allowing another *choice* of a weapon is a "mandate" to use it, when in reality , it's simply another *choice*, when has anyone been forced to use a compound over a recurve or longbow? A crossbow??? Just doesn't happen; it's when some don't wish to share the pie with others that there may well be no pie to share in the near future!

BTW, it's not "horning in", IF the hunters don't want to choose *any* weapon it won't be a factor at all, IF they *choose* to use them, then anyone who wishes to "*dictate*" to *other hunters *IS what causes "division and ill will among hunters"....

I will never understand the need for a few hunters to worry about and try to dictate to other hunters (their own kind btw) what they(other hunters) should use, based upon only what those who try to dictate believe! Another archery weapon during an archery season; so what! 

You rarely(if ever) hear gun hunters say , you shouldn't be allowed to use a 7mm mag for deer, it "gives you too much of an advantage"!! And while it's true it offers an advantage over a 30/30, it's a non issue, because MOST hunters do not concern themselves with what their fellow hunters CHOOSE to use, as it should be!

I would think we as hunters would be much better served IF we focused on the* real enemies* those who wish to end ALL hunting starting with all archery hunting Nationwide! THAT is the real and present danger, not other archery hunters wanting a choice in what they use(be it recurve, compound or crossbows)......why divide hunters against other hunters??? Dont' we have enough enemies without making them among ourselves???? I say we have more than enough, real enemies, and should unite as hunters and let each hunter choose their archery weapon...it's THEIR hunt after all, how will/could that affect us? IF they're happy, we should be happy for them?? After all WE also get that same choice to use OUR weapons of choice......makes perfect sense!


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## vermonster13

Unfortunately too many hunters are selfish. They want less guys sharing the woods with them, but everyone voting to protect their rights. They seem to think that someone else will shoot their deer. It is a shared resource and we need to unify to protect the sharing not our share. I had a poll on the greatest threat to hunting not to long ago and land access was chosen as the highest threat. I personally think that we are our greatest enemy, we either work together to solve our problems or soon they won't be problems anymore, they'll be memories.


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## aceoky

vermonster13 said:


> Unfortunately too many hunters are selfish. They want less guys sharing the woods with them, but everyone voting to protect their rights. They seem to think that someone else will shoot their deer. *It is a shared resource and we need to unify to protect the sharing not our share. *I had a poll on the greatest threat to hunting not to long ago and land access was chosen as the highest threat. *I personally think that we are our greatest enemy, we either work together to solve our problems or soon they won't be problems anymore, they'll be memories*.


I agree 100%!!

One can't expect to have "their cake , and eat it too".....

When there is NO cake left, then we ALL lose! That is the real issue, IMHO


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## ncboman

If honest discussion here among hunters is seen as dividing us up for war, perhaps we should just be quiet, pull down our pants, and bend over.:tongue:


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## voodoofire1

I refuse to vote on what is probably one of the most ignorant questions I've ever heard,no offense meant to who ever thought this up, but what we have as archers was built on the backs of "primitive" archers, have you ever heard the phrase "united we stand ,divided we fall"? I wonder? and I'm with Vermonster and Aceoky on this one! but that said I would be in favor of "traditional only" zones,as in urban hunting, c- bows have come so far in their short time on this earth,and they get faster and more powerful every day,in my humble opinion, in an urban hunting zone where you have children,housing,pets,and numerous people,the short range capabilities of a plain old stick and string would be particularly effective in these fragile areas.


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## aceoky

*You mean this?*



ncboman said:


> If honest discussion here among hunters is seen as dividing us up for war, perhaps we should just be quiet, pull down our pants, and bend over.:tongue:



Is this to what you refer? 

"I don’t feel there is any reason to* chop up the season we now have*. If the *trad guys want their own season *it _should come from time that no one is hunting now, just like the x-bow guys, if they want their own season it should come before or after the regular bow season. _*Horning in on what others have fought for and maintained is selfish and irresponsible, it causes division and ill will amongst hunters.*

Discussion is one thing, name calling and accusations another one entirely?  

Not only that, the above statement IMPLIES that something would be "lost" which is NOT the case, another choice, more opportunity would be added, but NOTHING would be "lost".....when was the last time, for example a state legalized/expanded crossbows, and then said " but longbows, and recurves" are no longer allowed? :wink: 

That is a major misrepresentation of the facts, which is IMHO all too common....that they're losing ground, when in fact they're not, they're only sharing with other hunters and their choices.....they are still just as able to "do their own things" as they ever were!!! 

Note the "chop up" , and "their own season", which *does *cause division(wanting to divide seasons rather than to share the existing one with others)..... and ill will among hunters, sharing with them does not......easy to see, if one only looks and pays attention....

*That*(and the entire way of thinking "Mine" ) IS what is causing division and ill will, NOT allowing hunters a choice to make....


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## doctariAFC

We all must bear in mind that hunting seasons and regulations governing such are primarily there to benefit WILDLIFE, not hunters. At one point in our history, we could not use bows, and firearms seasons were limited to a few days a year.

We have done such an exemplary job of conservation that more options exist, with longer seasons and specialty season also offered for an added challenge and opportunity in the woods, but this doesn't change the number 1 priority of herd management. 

P&Y has really gotten away from the original concepts of bowhunting. They'll tell you they are for the bowhunter and stopping the dreaded crossbow, when in reality, they see fit to limit, if not reduce the number of hunters in the woods. If P&Y could, I'm sure they would move to ban firearms from the woods, so the bowhunters could have the woods to themselves... And only a few bowhunters at that.

The bottom line is herd management, and any implement that delivers an efficient, clean harvest is all good. During archery, so long as gunpowder is not the propellant, rather, an arrow propelled by a string is used, No issues. This includes compound and crossbow alike. A crossbow is fair chase. SO is a compound bow, so is recurve and longbow. Allow the archer their choice, as it will not affect their hunt one way or the other. The VAST MAJORITY still will go deerless each year anyhow, no matter what type of bow is used..


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## aceoky

doctariAFC said:


> We all must bear in mind that hunting seasons and regulations governing such are primarily there to benefit WILDLIFE, not hunters. At one point in our history, we could not use bows, and firearms seasons were limited to a few days a year.
> 
> We have done such an exemplary job of conservation that more options exist, with longer seasons and specialty season also offered for an added challenge and opportunity in the woods, but this doesn't change the number 1 priority of herd management.
> 
> P&Y has really gotten away from the original concepts of bowhunting. They'll tell you they are for the bowhunter and stopping the dreaded crossbow, when in reality, they see fit to limit, if not reduce the number of hunters in the woods. If P&Y could, I'm sure they would move to ban firearms from the woods, so the bowhunters could have the woods to themselves... And only a few bowhunters at that.
> 
> The bottom line is herd management, and any implement that delivers an efficient, clean harvest is all good. During archery, so long as gunpowder is not the propellant, rather, an arrow propelled by a string is used, No issues. This includes compound and crossbow alike. A crossbow is fair chase. SO is a compound bow, so is recurve and longbow. Allow the archer their choice, as it will not affect their hunt one way or the other. The VAST MAJORITY still will go deerless each year anyhow, no matter what type of bow is used..


I agree 100% ! Choice is great as long as the resources can handle it (and they can with all archery hunting)...

I just can't seem to understand why a few hunters wish to impose their views on other fellow hunters, having one's own opinion is great; but forcing others to "see it your way", is not beneficial to any of us(hunters)....IF you'll never use a compound or crossbow that's great IF it's your choice for your own reasons, IF you choose to use either, "more power to you", doesn't affect anyone other than you anyway! IF you(as the archer) are happy we should all be happy for you? As was said, United we stand, divided we fall!

I have no doubts that these issues do serve the anti's and their plans, THAT is my biggest concern, (if we're divided, half their job is done for them???)...???


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## Free Range

Ace you have a serious problem. If you would go back and read the poll you will see that the person who posted the poll said, here I will help you out and quote it for you. 



> Assume that days will come out of existing bow seasons.


That is what I was referring to when I wrote “Chop up the season we have now”, and Trad guys, by the way I’m one of that group, was in reference to the pollsters quote 



> primitive weapons season based on "no wheels."


Again Ace you take everything I write out of context for your own agenda. 

You accuse name calling when none was called. Selfish and irresponsible is what people are that want to divide and cause ill will. I called no one here on this thread any names. 

I wonder who it is that starts all the division? Seams like you like to follow me around post these snipping comments then run to the sites that don’t allow discourse and hide. 



> So, I say, so long as firearms remain out of early archery season, let the hunters choose their implement, including the crossbow.


Ace tell us all how the above quote is any different then the (and the entire way of thinking "Mine" ) you speak of?


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## Free Range

> I just can't seem to understand why a few hunters wish to impose their views on other fellow hunters, having one's own opinion is great; but forcing others to "see it your way",


Like seeing it your way, that x-bows belong in archery season???? Funny how that works.


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## PMantle

Free Range summed it up well. I could not vote either.


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## Tim4Trout

1) While we already have separate and/or special seasons in many states ( i.e archery, firearms, primitive firearms ) IMO too many separate and/or special seasons work towards dividing us as hunters.

2) In all seasons we have equipment variations and options based upon the degree of challenge one wants to incur. ( i.e rifles with scopes vs open sights ) 

3) IMO most who shoot primitive bows do so for the challenge. But if they want their own special season ( without competition from compound bow hunters, etc. ) maybe it simply means that they want part of the challenge which they incur reduced.


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## aceoky

Tim4Trout said:


> 1) While we already have separate and/or special seasons in many states ( i.e archery, firearms, primitive firearms ) IMO too many separate and/or special seasons work towards dividing us as hunters.
> 
> 2) In all seasons we have equipment variations and options based upon the degree of challenge one wants to incur. ( i.e rifles with scopes vs open sights )
> 
> 3) IMO most who shoot primitive bows do so for the challenge. But if they want their own special season ( without competition from compound bow hunters, etc. ) maybe it simply means that they want part of the challenge which they incur reduced.


Exactly ! Thank you!


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## horseman308

I didn't feel I could vote. My preference would be a primitive _weapons_ only season. Include primitive archery with wooden arrows for sure, but also side lock blackpowder weapons (flintlock, caplock, even match- and wheel-lock) with greased patches and cast lead projectiles. The idea being that whatever weapons were included would only be from approximately the 1840's and earlier. No in-line muzzleloaders and no compound bows. Perhaps a crossbow, if it was built like they were in medieval Europe.


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## aceoky

*Hmm....*



Free Range said:


> Like seeing it your way, that x-bows belong in archery season???? Funny how that works.


Nothing "funny" about it at all, what *another hunter chooses* to use, (an archery weapon during an archery season in this case) has NO affect on ANY other hunter...*nothing* is "lost" by anyone....to imply that it does or even could does cause the exact feelings YOU mentioned, that's what's funny!  

It makes NO difference why you posted 'chop up the season" because yet again, no one loses anything.....period, they may have to share , but they can still use whatever.....THAT is the entire point which you (and a few others) seem so earger to dismiss, like you're going to "lose" when in fact the most you would be required to do is share, and likely you'd never notice any diffference at all!!!! It's always better to share a big pie than have NO pie at all.....that's where we sadly going to be at this rate!

YOU said *"You accuse name calling when none was called. Selfish and irresponsible is what people are that want to divide and cause ill will."*

Then don't try to divide and cause ill will, :darkbeer: be prepared to share with your fellow hunters, again you lose NOTHING by doing so, and gain much in that effort.....!!:cocktail: I've never seen ONE state that says "X" is all that you can use(x-bows or otherwise; adding another choice adds opportunity, it does not decrease it for anyone period)

I wouldn't bother to "follow you" anywhere fwiw... Don't flatter yourself...

What seems to cause these "divisions" and "ill will" is the inabiltiy of some to wish to share what most have done nothing to deserve in the first place, yet for whatever reasons they feel "special" and entitled because of their choice of weapons, but don't respect other hunters right to choose for themselves, simple enough?? You can certainly understand that concept, IF you try!

I'll say it again, we *need* to be *united*, and some trying to decide for others what archery weapons they can or can't hunt with will never serve to do that!! Period!

YOU need to "get real", rather than trying to get me to do so! Fact is , MOST hunters don't and won't agree with that way of thinking! MOST hunters have much better things to do than waste time and effort trying to dictate to their fellow hunters what they can or can't use....and most of us understand that.....sorry for you if you don't "get it"...


You're right though on my having a "serious problem", that is: I can't understand how some hunters feel obligated to dictate to their own kind; based upon mere opinions and overlook the abundant facts and data available....YEP that is a serious problem!

Here is yet another example>>>

"Quote:
So, I say, so long as firearms remain out of early archery season, let the hunters choose their implement, including the crossbow. 


Ace tell us all how the above quote is any different then the (and the entire way of thinking "Mine" ) you speak of?"

Again to most that speaks volumes for itself, firearms are not archery, (as he explained on the "boom" part prior to the excerpt you chose to use btw):wink: Archery is up close and personal, which weapon one chooses to use does NOT eliminate that important part of the process, thus it's not relevant to most hunters....including most archery hunters....and it shouldn't be to any IMHO, we should treat EACH other with respect, and embrace more archery hunters, which we badly need IF we're to survive much longer, but some would rather risk it all, rather than share with their own kind!

I just have to wonder why gun hunters who choose to use the 30/30 don't run around telling other hunters they shouldn't be allowed to use the 7mm mag? It does give them an obvious advantage, yet somehow those hunters don't seem to have a problem with that choice at all!! THAT is and should be a lesson to each of us, THAT we hunt is much more important for all of us, than what we choose to use in the process, the KISS method of "getting along" for the good of all involved! Let other hunters choose, how and what to use, it's their hunt after all!


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## aceoky

*Fr........*

FR (quote) *"Seams like you like to follow me around post these snipping comments then run to the sites that don’t allow discourse and hide. "*


THAT is the most absurd thing I think you've ever posted(which is saying something in and of itself!) Many here know for a fact that YOU started showing up where I had been posting for YEARS trying the exact same thing you're now doing here among many other places I've been much longer than you have btw(again).....

I have NO reason to "run and hide" from you, though I have most often of late refused to even give your posts any thought much less any response having already answered them many times in many places....there are also a few others who have the gotten the same exact treatement, just as you will (mostly at least) from here on out....

The "funny" thing is, you seem to wish to make a "big deal" out of the UCBK site NOT allowing any such nonsense on there, that is not it's purpose nor will it be allowed, as is *clearly* stated; if you don't like the rules(which most places you ignore them anyway, even though it usually gets you into trouble....as you know I'm also well aware):cocktail: then choose to not visit there....Your choice(notice how choice keeps "popping up"??) WE CHOSE to not allow that...in order to not have divisions or "ill will" among the true hunters who wish to visit and post there, amazing as it may seem, it's working! 

Not one argument or any feelings of "ill will" are known to me at all! Imagine that, peace and harmony amoung fellow hunters, as we feel it should always be! :wink:


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## Free Range

> I just have to wonder why gun hunters who choose to use the 30/30 don't run around telling other hunters they shouldn't be allowed to use the 7mm mag?


Or why they don’t like automatic weapons, or 50cal sniper rifles. You see I to know what is going on with other hunters, and gun hunters have their diversions like you, too. 



> Again to most that speaks volumes for itself, firearms are not archery, (as he explained on the "boom" part prior to the excerpt you chose to use btw) Archery is up close and personal, which weapon one chooses to use does NOT eliminate that important part of the process,


What speaks volumes is your inability to see how selfish you sound when you ask to be included in archery season then say, “but them gun hunters can’t come too” Either you are for choice or you’re not, which is it?

What also speaks volumes is the fact you can’t see that your side started this, without the push for inclusion there would be no debate, period. 

What also speaks volumes is that you can’t relate to what the original post is about, he said to* “TAKE AWAY FROM EXISTING ARCHERY SEASON” *I didn’t, I was responding to the question as asked. And yes that would affect me *SOMETHING *would be lost.


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## aceoky

I will agree to disagree, how's that (at the risk of being accused of "running and hiding" , yet again)....you will NEVER understand that archery is for archery hunting and not wanting guns allowed is NOT the same thing, that being the main reason, why I'm not wasting any more time on you or your "opinions" of what is "fair" and what isn't ......

As I said, MOST hunters agree with the view that archery weapons ALL belong in archery season(as one would expect) and "our side" didn't start this, any more than the compound hunters did when they sought to be included "back when", they are now included just as we will be sooner than you would like, may as well accept the facts, MOST hunters are not so so concerned about what other archers choose to use, and IMHO that's a "good thing".....

NO *nothing* is "LOST", anyone can see that! Another CHOICE WOULD BE ALLOWED, exaclty WHAT is "lost" "an exclusive season".......that is NOT a loss, it's called sharing, something most adults teach their children.....and for very good reason, I might add....

NOTHING is "lost" as anyone can still use what they always have used, IF they were REQUIRED to use something else(crossbow) THEN and ONLY then would it be "something lost".....

YOU try as you might to paint ME as selfish, yet YOU are the one that admits the "exclusive season " is ALL that matters, regardless of other's views or feelings , or choices...because that is the "only thing lost", IF anyone thinks anything indeed is......Yep I think most can see who IS the "selfish one here"....

Here's a thought, while you're fighting and dividing, explain to your fellow hunters why it's so hard for you to share with your own kind?? YOU wish to exclude an archery weapon from archery season! HOW Exactly does that help anyone? Much less OUR sport and each other??? 

Maybe you will be ready to explain to the children of the future how WE defeated OURSELVES over trivial issues such as what another hunter chooses to archery hunt with??? THAT is where this IS heading, pretending you're doing a "great thing" , won't change it either fwiw....

I'm finished with you on this, argue with yourself if you want......


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## ncboman

Ky, do you sell xguns ??? 

You have stated several times that nothing is lost. 

I disagree.


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## aceoky

ncboman said:


> Ky, do you sell xguns ???
> 
> You have stated several times that nothing is lost.
> 
> I disagree.


Nope don't sell them and have never even shot one in my entire life! 

Fine to disagree, however exactly what is "lost" that you can do now you wouldn't be able to do??? Anything? NOPE, you are just as free to use a longbow(or whatever) as you ever were, nothing is "lost" (taken from you), yes, you'd have to share the woods, why is that so "bad"??

I can see NO good reason for allowing "some" archery weapons during archery season and not allowing others; again fine to disagree, but I still haven't seen anything "lost" by anyone by doing so; in the states that allow them or have expanded, though I have seen several positives factors come forth, THAT IS a "good thing" for all of us(even those who opposed it)  

This you just "might" find interesting:

http://www.api4animals.org/facts?p=391&more=1

Bowhunting: Bowhunting (the use of bows and arrows) causes more injuries to wildlife than any other hunting practice. 

Scientific studies indicate that for every animal killed and retrieved by a bowhunter, another is left to die a slow and painful death from wounds.1 
When educated about such unethical hunting practices, few Americans believe the claim that hunting involves “subsistence survival skills,” “intelligence,” and a “fair chase.” The facts disprove such arguments

_________________________________________

THAT is the real enemy for us ALL! That type of nonsense, and while we're debating such trivial matters THAT is what they're doing! Anyone can see the "agenda", there, but some choose to ignore it.....NOW we ALL know it's utter BS, but how many that don't bowhunt do?? 

There ARE bigger issues that affect each and every one of us, and "sharing" is not one of them IMHO


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## oldbhtrnewequip

Lots of good opinions here.
So what I hear everyone saying is:

"the difficulty level pursued, from an equipment use perspective, should continue to be decided at an individual level."

I'd like to think about how far that is from non hunting archery, on a competitive level, for a while. My initial thoughts are that hunting and non-hunting archery exist at either ends of the spectrum, from a competitive level point of view. Please help me out. Do we agree that the equipment rules use are extremely well defined, from a 'maximum' perspective in non hunting archery while minimum rules use are what are defined in hunting by the natural resources authorities?

Maybe we should stop calling hunting a sport?

Doc...I'm gonna disagree with your definition/postioning of primitive, from an equipment use perspective. You want to compare archery to gun hunting and call it primitive. Gun hunting already has separated categories, and seasons to support it.

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=primitive

*prim·i·tive * ( P ) Pronunciation Key (prm-tv)
adj. 
Not derived from something else; primary or basic. 

Of or relating to an earliest or original stage or state; primeval. 
Being little evolved from an early ancestral type. 
Characterized by simplicity or crudity; unsophisticated: primitive weapons. 



While we're considering word definitions let's reconsider the common definition of sport. 

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=sport

*sport * ( P ) Pronunciation Key (spôrt, sprt)
n. 

Physical activity that is governed by a set of rules or customs and often engaged in competitively. 
A particular form of this activity. 
An activity involving physical exertion and skill that is governed by a set of rules or customs and often undertaken competitively. 
An active pastime; recreation.


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## doctariAFC

oldbhtrnewequip said:


> Lots of good opinions here.
> So what I hear everyone saying is:
> 
> "the difficulty level pursued, from an equipment use perspective, should continue to be decided at an individual level."
> 
> I'd like to think about how far that is from non hunting archery, on a competitive level, for a while. My initial thoughts are that hunting and non-hunting archery exist at either ends of the spectrum, from a competitive level point of view. Please help me out. Do we agree that the equipment rules use are extremely well defined, from a 'maximum' perspective in non hunting archery while minimum rules use are what are defined in hunting by the natural resources authorities?
> 
> Maybe we should stop calling hunting a sport?
> 
> Doc...I'm gonna disagree with your definition/postioning of primitive, from an equipment use perspective. You want to compare archery to gun hunting and call it primitive. Gun hunting already has separated categories, and seasons to support it.
> 
> http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=primitive
> 
> *prim·i·tive * ( P ) Pronunciation Key (prm-tv)
> adj.
> Not derived from something else; primary or basic.
> 
> Of or relating to an earliest or original stage or state; primeval.
> Being little evolved from an early ancestral type.
> Characterized by simplicity or crudity; unsophisticated: primitive weapons.
> 
> 
> 
> While we're considering word definitions let's reconsider the common definition of sport.
> 
> http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=sport
> 
> *sport * ( P ) Pronunciation Key (spôrt, sprt)
> n.
> 
> Physical activity that is governed by a set of rules or customs and often engaged in competitively.
> A particular form of this activity.
> An activity involving physical exertion and skill that is governed by a set of rules or customs and often undertaken competitively.
> An active pastime; recreation.


The primitive aspect regarding firearms I was referring to was in the sense of muzzleloaders. Today, the in-line ML is in the same vein as compound bows to archery, plain and simple (although one goes BOOM). PA addressed the primitive ML desires of hunters by going with a flintlock, roundball, iron sights only early season, which in my opinion is one heck of a challenge. In fact, I dare say, using a flintlock is far more challenging that grabbing a self bow and cedar shaft arrow, as the bow will not misfire, especially on rainy days!

Nevertheless, the entire reason for hunting is herd management, and enjoyment. Enjoyment of the woods, enjoyment of the game, enjoyment of that venison tenderloin YOU put on the table yourself. HOwever, we must also be conscious of ethical, clean, quick kills. Not on account of the wacko ARAs, but to make certain we do not waste the animal we harvest. WOunding rates with primitive bows are higher than with compound bows and crossbows. That is a proven, documented fact. Although the challenge is rewarding, by taking 7 or 10 days of the early archery season and demanding "primitive only" we either exclude hunters from an opportunity afield or we must accept higher wounding rates, neither of which I would be quick to support. Back in the 1930's - 1950's, when the dawn of archery season spread across the Fruited Plain, hunters had no alternatives to longbows, selfbows and recurves. This translated into low numbers of hunters, and, although at the time the management aspect was to take few deer, harvest numbers were low at best. When, in the 1960's, the compound bow came to be, and State by State the device was permitted, we witnessed a revolution in archery hunting, and the ranks of bowhunters swelled by more than double. Tis was not only because the compound was "easier" to shoot for some, more importantly, it was a more effective hunting implement.

Safety issues are identical between compound and stick bows. I have not heard of hunters darting other hunters during archery seasons, and, in response to the post regarding use of primitive archery in urban and suburban areas is about as off target as an air ball. With wounding rates higher for primitive than compound bows, all you would need is for a deer to come staggering into the back yard of some ARA (many ARAs come from urban and suburban areas!) with money and you can kiss the archery season goodbye, in total. As archery season goes, use the most effective implement for YOU. But do NOT eliminate in part or in total implements that deliver more efficiency afield to simply satisfy some sense of "more sporting" in some archer's minds. Again, that is personal opinion, and never, ever should be imposed on the masses. IMpose it on yourself, and choose to hunt with a self bow and cedar arrows. Go for it. But DO NOT EVER impose that on the hunters as a whole. Senseless, IMHO.


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## Free Range

> As I said, MOST hunters agree with the view that archery weapons ALL belong in archery season(as one would expect)


Not sure how you come up with this “opinion”, this “one” does not expect that. Does that mean *MOST* hunters agree all guns belong in gun season? A very flawed opinion considering the amount of resistance we have for the x-bow.



> now included just as we will be sooner than you would like,


Careful you are miss speaking again, you mean “them” don’t you, after all you are not a x-bow hunter, or are you? 



> NO nothing is "LOST", anyone can see that! Another CHOICE WOULD BE ALLOWED, exaclty WHAT is "lost" "an exclusive season".......that is NOT a loss, it's called sharing, something most adults teach their children.....and for very good reason, I might add....


Something is most certainly lost in the example above, and after all in order to stay on subject, the starting post is what is being debated, right? And even if you do broaden the scope of this discussion there is plenty lost. It’s just that you gain, so are blinded to the loss, uh, I mean they gain. 



> THEN and ONLY then would it be "something lost".....


Again only in your narrowly defined idea of loss.



> Maybe you will be ready to explain to the children of the future how WE defeated OURSELVES over trivial issues such as what another hunter chooses to archery hunt with??? THAT is where this IS heading, pretending you're doing a "great thing" , won't change it either fwiw....


The only reason I would have to do that is if you stand on the sidelines when the real battle is fought, and whine about the bow hunters that kept bow hunting as it should be. What are you going to tell your children when they have to share the woods with all types of hunters? And have to share the same time in the woods because you provided the blue print for any special interest group that wants to hunt at any time during the season?



> I'm finished with you on this, argue with yourself if you want......


Thanks for conceding.


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## Free Range

> THAT is the real enemy for us ALL! That type of nonsense, and while we're debating such trivial matters THAT is what they're doing! Anyone can see the "agenda", there, but some choose to ignore it.....NOW we ALL know it's utter BS, but how many that don't bowhunt do??


So if this is the case why do you spend so much of your time championing the x-bow, a weapon you have never even shot before, makes a guy wonder about your motives. 



> By DoctariAFC
> WOunding rates with primitive bows are higher than with compound bows and crossbows. That is a proven, documented fact.


Doc I’m not going to say you’re wrong here, knowing how good your are at researching your facts, unlike others here. But I have done a little research on this and have not seen any documentation proving this. The only study I have seen is the camp Ripley study, and they didn’t distinguish between the compound and Traditional equipment. Heck I’m not sure when that study was done off the top of my head, but it might have been done BC (before compound).



> hunters had no alternatives to longbows, selfbows and recurves. This translated into low numbers of hunters,


Again I don’t agree, totally, in those days the deer herd was a very small fraction of what it is today. Low numbers of hunters, ( I assume you mean bow hunters) could just as likely been from lack of opportunity for success. If you read some of what was written back then you will see, it was considered a very successful day afield just to see a deer. Given those conditions, it’s not hard to see why most hunters chose the gun over the bow. There are many other aspects involved but it’s enough to say, that the primitive, (relative) nature of the equipment alone is/was not the reason for low bow hunter numbers.



> When, in the 1960's, the compound bow came to be, and State by State the device was permitted, we witnessed a revolution in archery hunting, and the ranks of bowhunters swelled by more than double. Tis was not only because the compound was "easier" to shoot for some, more importantly, it was a more effective hunting implement.


Once more you are over simplifying the cause and effect relationship of the compound bow, on bow hunting popularity. You are correct that the compound did a great deal to bring bow hunting to where it is today. But there is a lot of other factors that contributed to this as well. Again deer herd is probably the single biggest factor. Now, with the size of deer herds we have a person has a relatively good chance of taking a deer or two home by the end of bow season. A person doesn’t feel like they are wasting their time hunting with a bow. Another aspect that makes bow hunting more attractive today is the wealth of information available. Back in the day, even back when I started in the late 70’s, people didn’t know much about tree stand hunting, about rattling, scent lures, scrapes, calls. There was a mystery about bow hunting, now with the scores of deer hunting mag’s and all the TV shows, bowhunting seams to be more doable for the average Joe then in years past. Couple that with the perceived ease of mastery of the compound bow and you have the explosion of bow hunters we have seen over the last 20-30 years.


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## centerx

The difference between traditional and modern is 45 yards

Some use a glove , some use a tab , some use a release. Others chose no sights while some choose a sight that glows in the shadows

It's still 45 yards

Some hunt in a stand , others in a blind some in a bush

Still 45 yards

Some hunt in plaid flannel, others in high tech carbon suits

Yep … still 45 yards .

Some bait them in some decoy them in and others chase them with hounds

45 yards is still what separates the guy making a primitive bow in his garage and another that orders a high tech one mail order

SO who really wants a special season based on 45 yards? Again those that do are basing there opinions solely on greed. They know that for however many days of the year they can get something passed the numbers in the woods would practically dwindle to nothing in comparison


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## doctariAFC

You have some solid points, and yes, it is primarily due to a number of factors, not just one factor. Wounding rates statistics are available. The last one conducted, as I recall was back in the mid-1990's. It discussed the wounding rates of compounds versus traditional, and at varying distance and shot angles. If you wish to get some more information on this subject, I would refer you to County Federations/ Alliance members and their bowhunting committee chairmen. Dave Reed is the Erie County Federation bowhunting chairman, and he is a member of NYB as well. Solid resource of information on this subject. Wounding rates are something that archery hunters typically wish to steer clear of when in debates with those ARWs that fight to ban bowhunting. The simple truth is that a bow, be it compound, stick bow or even crossbow, is far inferior to any firearm, modern or primitive, out there. Still, one element that is lost in the wounding rates is hunter proficiency and shot selection. Wounding rates have gone down tremendously. This is due to compound bows and the sights being used, coupled with the opportunities to keep in top shooting form through the explosion of 3-D and target archery leagues over the past 20 years. That is all good news, but, still, this one must be left to the hunter, and we should never lose sight of the importance of herd management, especially with the health and abundance of today's deer populations across the Fruited Plain.

In terms of hunter participation, I can only speak with authority to NYS and the history thereof. By the 1950's much of NYS was opened to hunting. Firearms season was very, very short (less than 2 weeks). When archery season was added in the mid 1950's, hunters looking for additional opportunity found the season attractive, but many dropped out as it was just not productive for them. Sure, part of this was the low deer population, but, frustration with equipment and not recovering a shot deer contributed to this. We also must remember that safe, portable treestands were non-existent either. 

NYS allowed compound bows in the 1970's, and this played the HUGE ROLL in bowhunter recruitment. Accuracy and power were the big reasons behind the growth in archery, along with ease of use and more effective harvest power/ lower wounding rates. Still, wounding rates remain @ 25%-30% of all deer shot. This compares with 15% (+/-) with firearms, and this wounding rate is usually (as in all cases) joey blasting happily at running deer. Again, this comes to hunter education and shot selection....

But I digress. Pushing for a traditional archery season which would cannibalize part of the early archery season is a major mistake, and serves to drive hunters away. I would support ADDING two weeks on the front end for Primitive weapons, such as stickbows and flintlocks, although the firearms with the leaves still on the trees is something I would have difficulties reconciling wit safe shooting practices, but, PA has not had any issues, and NYS experienced no issues with rifles i Southern Tier in 2005, so safety is covered and we still must accept that accidents can and do and will happen. We can only work our tails off to keep accident levels low.

But to take away days from hunters choosing a compound bow to satisfy a very small group of trad hunters is contrary to how laws are passed, and I cannot, especially with deer numbers as they are, see any justification for this type of move whatsoever. Besides,. during archery season, if you wish to choose to use a stick bow, nothing at all will limit your chances for success during regular archery. In fact, I am now considering getting a solid 50# - 60# recurve to hunt with. Faster shot on the ground than the compound! I don't hunt from trees. Personal preference, I like the eyeball to eyeball hunt... But, that's just me...


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## southerngirl

well, in a perfect world.........
I think the primitives should have a season first, then the wheel bows, then crossbows, then the gun seasons. 

BUT, if we do that we would have to start the season way to early. 
There is no use killing a deer if it is so hot that you are afraid to eat the meat after you find the deer.ukey: 
So I guess we are stuck with things the way they are. The primitive archers are stuck competing against the crossbows with the wheel bows somewhere inbetween.

and just so you know, I don't have a single primitive archer in my family.


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## Free Range

> But I digress. Pushing for a traditional archery season which would cannibalize part of the early archery season is a major mistake,


I agree 100%, and this is what I was trying to say before Ace jumped in and tried to turn what I was saying around, AGAIN. There are those in the Traditional community that would like to see a Traditional only season taken out of existing archery seasons. I’m not one of them. The only form of Traditional archery season I would be for is, added season, either on the front or back, or maybe some Traditional only areas, like they do at McCallister (sp) munitions depot in Oklahoma, and I believe there are a couple others around the country. 



> If you wish to get some more information on this subject, I would refer you to County Federations/ Alliance members and their bowhunting committee chairmen. Dave Reed is the Erie County Federation bowhunting chairman, and he is a member of NYB as well.


Thanks for the contact, I would love to see their study, and will be contacting him ASAP. I assume they have a web site I can find, and get their contact info from? If I can’t find it do you have an e-mail address you could PM me where I can get in touch with Dave Reed?


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## aceoky

I conceded NOTHING, I simply choose to not argue with you; most don't want or need that, and out of pure respect, I refuse to participate in your game......

I meant exactly what I said, I have never shot a crossbow, but I am an obvious supporter, thus I am one of "them".....fwiw....

Any possible way anyone tries to cry "loss", there is nothing "lost", sharing with another archery weapon is NOT loss, it's a postive gain for all archers, we NEED more numbers, period, pretending that we don't won't change that never; and never will in fact!

More choice= more archers= we ALL gain... simple for most to see; some want us to believe there is " a great resistance to the crossbow" when in fact MOST actual real hunters don't feel that way, some strong bowhunting GROUPS are the resistance, many knowing many of their own members don't feel the same way!

I have to wonder how many "real hunters" belong to these archery clubs opposing crossbows? My guess is a VERY small percentage in most states, so much for the "strong oppositon"!

My motives? They are clear, if compounds are allowed during any archery season the crossbow should be as well, I have yet to see ANY good reasons for them being left out! I've seen opinions, not based upon facts, "feelings" but no hard evidence to support their exclusion.....and sorry but "blueprint for every other weapon" won't "cut it", that's the same lame argument used(among many others the same applies btw) to exclude the compounds, NONE of the "doomsday predictions" came true on the compound and they haven't with the crossbow either in the States bold enough to actually give them a chance! 

Fact is; once people use them, they soon realize they ARE just another archery weapon with the same limitations, as any others, and they don't kill all the deer or turkeys or .... The success rate is nearly identical when comparing crossbows and compounds in all states that allow both, thus IF one is allowed so should the other be!

My motive is to add opportunity which is proven to increase hunter numbers an indisputable fact, no matter how anyone wishes to "spin" it! 
MY motive is to try my very best to preserve what I happen to love, archery hunting, by adding many more hunters and retaining some of the older hunters we actually may be able to do that, but to attempt to divide HUNTERS against one another serves no useful purpose that I can see at all!

I am 100% for more opportunity, choice and for keeping our sport alive, I'm for sharing what we have with others, and showing them why we participate in archery hunting, the crossbow is proven to do all of these things and very well, WITHOUT any harm to the resources!! THAT is a "win-win" in most everyone's book!

To imply, we may as well, open year round and allow firearms is irresponsible and very much ignorance on anyone's part, THAT idea would harm the resources very rapidly, thus there is NO relation of one idea to the other!

The inclusion of the crossbow has been proven over many years to be a postive WITHOUT harm to any resources, again no one "loses" anything! ALL archery hunters gain, by adding more of us, we win more time to hunt , whereas at the rate hunter's numbers are declining, without more numbers no one can guarantee anyone we will or could do this much longer.....it's a numbers game friends and we're now losing it! 

WE MUST add to our ranks, to survive, that's not speculation, it's a well known fact, and pretending it's not so serious only serves our enemies, the real enemies, of archery hunting the HSUS and allies!

The crossbow may well not be the whole answer, but it's the easiest to implement that is PROVEN to work! Thus it deserves it's place, and is needed for ALL of us to continue ot enjoy what we now have, or risk losing it all. Based with that choice, MOST hunters can easily see "sharing" is "good", losing it all , instead of sharing serves NO good purpose, except for our enemies, the real question is:

HOW much exactly do you oppose sharing what you now have? Enough to risk it all? I certainly hope not!


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## Free Range

> Fact is; once people use them, they soon realize they ARE just another archery weapon with the same limitations, as any others, and they don't kill all the deer or turkeys or .... The success rate is nearly identical when comparing crossbows and compounds in all states that allow both, thus IF one is allowed so should the other be!


How could you possibly say that when you say you have never used one, I used one once, not to hunt with, but shot one at targets, and no I didn’t relize it was just another archery weapon, in fact I went in the cabin and washed my hands when I was done. Another one of your Facts?
I never said they would kill all the deer, or turkeys, I wish they would kill most of the turkeys, maybe the quail would come back to eastern KS if the turkeys were thinned out a bit. 

What does success rate have to do with it, the muzzleloader success rate is nearly identical too.



> My motive is to add opportunity which is proven to increase hunter numbers an indisputable fact, no matter how anyone wishes to "spin" it!


Really, how much opportunity has been added in the last 30 years in Ohio? What has happened to hunter numbers in that state over the last 30 years, another one of YOUR FACTS???



> I am 100% for more opportunity, choice and for keeping our sport alive,


What sport is that, because it’s clear your not for keeping bowhunting alive.



> To imply, we may as well, open year round and allow firearms is irresponsible and very much ignorance on anyone's part, THAT idea would harm the resources very rapidly, thus there is NO relation of one idea to the other!


Don’t know where you came up with that one, but I haven’t heard anyone imply that. 



> The inclusion of the crossbow has been proven over many years to be a postive WITHOUT harm to any resources, again no one "loses" anything!


Again you narrowly define loss.



> WE MUST add to our ranks, to survive, that's not speculation, it's a well known fact, and pretending it's not so serious only serves our enemies, the real enemies, of archery hunting the HSUS and allies!


And how can we do this? It’s a FACT that adding the x-bow does not add hunters, in fact hunter numbers continue to decline in the states that have allowed them for years. 



> HOW much exactly do you oppose sharing what you now have? Enough to risk it all? I certainly hope not!


What I have now is ARCHERY season, shared with other bow hunters, I do not whish to share that with gun hunters, or x-bow hunters, but will gladly share it with all of the above that whish to pick up a bow. In fact will personally teach everyone of them that comes to me, how to shoot a bow. 

How much exactly do you love a weapon you have never shot, enough to risk not having a bow season, ever again?


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## thesource

Free Range said:


> How could you possibly say that when you say you have never used one, I used one once, not to hunt with, but shot one at targets, and no I didn’t relize it was just another archery weapon, in fact I went in the cabin and washed my hands when I was done. Another one of your Facts?


I've shot one. And it was not like a bow.

Let me add my take.

I currently hunt with a recurve, but I have hunted with compounds. They are more similar than dissimilar, and anyone who shoots one understands what is required to shoot the other. They are both bows.

I have shot a crossbow. It required NONE of the skills, procedures, and movements required to shoot either my recurves or my compounds. In fact, it required the exact same set of skills and movements required to shoot any of the dozens of guns I have used in my lifetime.

It is not a bow. Those who use them are not bowhunters.


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## oldbhtrnewequip

voodoofire1 said:


> I refuse to vote on what is probably one of the most ignorant questions I've ever heard,no offense meant to who ever thought this up, but what we have as archers was built on the backs of "primitive" archers, have you ever heard the phrase "united we stand ,divided we fall"? I wonder? and I'm with Vermonster and Aceoky on this one! but that said I would be in favor of "traditional only" zones,as in urban hunting, c- bows have come so far in their short time on this earth,and they get faster and more powerful every day,in my humble opinion, in an urban hunting zone where you have children,housing,pets,and numerous people,the short range capabilities of a plain old stick and string would be particularly effective in these fragile areas.


Voodoofire,

Everyone is entitled to their opinion, and you can certainly have yours. Its interesting that you consider this an ignorant question. If that was the case everyone and his brother would already know the answer to the question. That doesn't seem to be the case. You're suggestion of zone based management does the same thing in a somewhat different way. Is that somehow not ignorant?

Even you said what we have was built on the backs of primitive archers.
You then make the thought 'leap' to united we stand and divided we fall.
I believe you're predisposed to thinking in defensive ways about what we do relative to the anti's. I could be wrong but that's my guess based on your response. I don't let "what the anti's might do" rule what I think about or discuss with other folks. We are (for the most part) reasonable and intelligent people who can figure things out, and work together to make things better. 

I don't get the whole attitude of continuing to do things the way we've always done them just because we've always done them that way. I don't feel like I need to be the least bit defensive about what we do, as long as we do it ethically.

Have you noticed that the guys who are traditional aren't stepping up, on this thread, and saying "yeah give me some days where I can do some hunting in the woods where no one else can hunt unless they are using 'traditional' equipment." The word traditional goes hand in hand with primitive. If a bunch of guys, that were traditional only hunters, stood up and said "give us a few days back", then that would certainly engender some hostility coming from the ranks of the wheeled hunters. 

Sooooo...if a bunch of the wheeled/non-primitive hunters say "go get 'em like in the good old days", the whole thing gets perceived as a 'gift' as opposed to a "take". It makes that time...an event. I hope you get where I'm coming from. Some folks did...like southerngirl. 

It honors the "sport." 
It honors our tradition. 
It creates a level playing field for a period of time that reduces us ALL to the way things were for our ancestors. 

United we stand and divided we fall huh? Absolutely I've heard of it, and sometimes, that could mean supporting something that somebody wants to do, even though it might not be exactly what you want. Do you do things that your wife might want to do, like say go shopping, even though its not gonna trip your trigger? How about her when you go spend 1/2 a day at Bass Pro? You think she's 'enjoying' that?

I don't know that this thread has been brought up here before or not. If it has and anyone can point me to it, I'd be obliged. Its all based on what point of view you're looking at it from. 

In return, maybe they'll be a little less persnickety about technical advances that change our sport? 

The bow hunting community, unlike the gun hunting community, has this tremendous division within its ranks regarding equipment use.
How do you break the log jam?

So please show me the threads where this has already been discussed, in this way.

Thanks,


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## aceoky

"Some" say they're "losing" and "giving somthing up", but when asked exactly what it is, they say I define "loss" in too narrow of a way.. 

Yet they fail to mention exactly what it IS they'd be losing; exactly what they'd be forced to change, what it is they now do they could no longer do! IOW they can't put it down what they'd be losing because after all is said and done, they give up or "lose" nothing!

So we are back at "square one", once again, they don't want to share with other archery hunters who don't agree with them on ONE issue! On most issues we all pretty much seem to agree, but that is not "good enough", for them to be willing to accept us for what we are, other archers who choose to use another archery weapon, they feel gives some "magic advantage" to, and I say so what even if it does! 

Hunting isn't and shouldn't be a "competitive sport", it's done for one's individual reasons and "satisfaction" comes in different ways to different people, that is about as traditional as it gets! Been that way for many centuries, however these few wish to change that and say "we're fine, as long as you DO IT OUR WAY; it's only a problem IF you persist in being different; in that case we're unwilling to share with you!"

Even going so far as to say crossbow hunters "don't belong" and aren't "bowhunters".....THAT is exactly the very attitude that abolished ALL bowhunting in Great Britain, but that seems to not matter at all!!!

As I have stated, out of pure respect for the members here, and their rights to not be subject to such "nonsense", I am doing my very best to not argue, that being said, I am still waiting for some actual factual PROOF of exactly what they're "losing", I maintain they lose nothing, but gain much, though they will have to share, most hunters are also parents and know, how important sharing is; and often how hard it is to get the point across, but the concept they are very familiar with, and .......

Btw the "season" isn't "yours" to begin with, we participate in it, it doesn't belong to ANY select group; so others asking to join have EVERY right to do so, it's one thing to oppose an idea, quite another to demand "your season"(which is just as much every one else's ) be "left alone, or like it is"...

Like it or not, you WILL be sharing, and it seems "odd" to me, even when expansion occurs, some find the need to go there and argue AFTER THE FACT that it's already been legalized (the Pa thread comes quickly to mind)....don't agree, fine and it's your right, but what purpose is there in after the fact attempting to "stir" things then?? 
What's done is done, and a few making big noise is very unlikely to change that, as is obvious ; some still like to use Ohio, but MOST in Ohio, embrace them, as one poster said in the Ohio thread " I don't see making the crossbow illegal helping anything" (that is very close if not verbatem)....

Many in Ohio, admit to enjoying the added opportunity, THAT should be enough, as hunters we need to "stick together" and unite, and yes "United We Stand" is truth, give it a shot, since I have seen NO proof of anything "lost", though some continue to expound that idea, where is some actual factual proof? IF you're going to claim loss, it's not enough to claim I define loss too narrowly, show US all, what it is you're being forced to give up or change yourself, if you can't do that, then you still have EVERYTHING you ever did, you're just sharing with fellow hunters, that's a "good thing"!


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## ncboman

:secret: 

I was in Ohio sittin up my climber one morning when I saw a couple of guys with xguns in the distance headed my way. They were working along the side of a drainage and at spots one would stand ready and the other would go down and probe the thick trying to flush bedded deer. As they got closer I noticed one spot they both took vantage points and threw rocks down into the thick attempting to roust a deer. None were jumped so they continued on along and passed near the tree where I was perched undetected. I could hear them talking about where their truck was parked and how they were going to cross the ridge and circle back on another hollow and head back that way. They weren't being particularly quiet in their talking back and forth and even after I lost sight of them I could still hear voices as they moved along in their quest.

Now I'm just a country boy from North Carolina and don't know much so perhaps someone can help me out. 

I felt I lost something that morning but have a difficult time defining exactly what it was.


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## Marvin

aceoky said:


> I will agree to disagree, how's that (at the risk of being accused of "running and hiding" , yet again)....you will NEVER understand that archery is for archery hunting and not wanting guns allowed is NOT the same thing, that being the main reason, why I'm not wasting any more time on you or your "opinions" of what is "fair" and what isn't ......
> 
> As I said, MOST hunters agree with the view that archery weapons ALL belong in archery season(as one would expect) and "our side" didn't start this, any more than the compound hunters did when they sought to be included "back when", they are now included just as we will be sooner than you would like, may as well accept the facts, MOST hunters are not so so concerned about what other archers choose to use, and IMHO that's a "good thing".....
> 
> NO *nothing* is "LOST", anyone can see that! Another CHOICE WOULD BE ALLOWED, exaclty WHAT is "lost" "an exclusive season".......that is NOT a loss, it's called sharing, something most adults teach their children.....and for very good reason, I might add....
> 
> NOTHING is "lost" as anyone can still use what they always have used, IF they were REQUIRED to use something else(crossbow) THEN and ONLY then would it be "something lost".....
> 
> YOU try as you might to paint ME as selfish, yet YOU are the one that admits the "exclusive season " is ALL that matters, regardless of other's views or feelings , or choices...because that is the "only thing lost", IF anyone thinks anything indeed is......Yep I think most can see who IS the "selfish one here"....
> 
> Here's a thought, while you're fighting and dividing, explain to your fellow hunters why it's so hard for you to share with your own kind?? YOU wish to exclude an archery weapon from archery season! HOW Exactly does that help anyone? Much less OUR sport and each other???
> 
> Maybe you will be ready to explain to the children of the future how WE defeated OURSELVES over trivial issues such as what another hunter chooses to archery hunt with??? THAT is where this IS heading, pretending you're doing a "great thing" , won't change it either fwiw....
> 
> I'm finished with you on this, argue with yourself if you want......



you said that last time and your still going. Chicken little, chicken little, chicken little....... hows are we going to defeat ourselves ACE? Ohio just added more days to archery season...By your estimation they should be taking things away....chicken little....


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## Marvin

ncboman said:


> :secret:
> 
> I was in Ohio sittin up my climber one morning when I saw a couple of guys with xguns in the distance headed my way. They were working along the side of a drainage and at spots one would stand ready and the other would go down and probe the thick trying to flush bedded deer. As they got closer I noticed one spot they both took vantage points and threw rocks down into the thick attempting to roust a deer. None were jumped so they continued on along and passed near the tree where I was perched undetected. I could hear them talking about where their truck was parked and how they were going to cross the ridge and circle back on another hollow and head back that way. They weren't being particularly quiet in their talking back and forth and even after I lost sight of them I could still hear voices as they moved along in their quest.
> 
> Now I'm just a country boy from North Carolina and don't know much so perhaps someone can help me out.
> 
> I felt I lost something that morning but have a difficult time defining exactly what it was.



respect?


----------



## Free Range

Ace, I just don’t know about you. 



> Yet they fail to mention exactly what it IS they'd be losing; exactly what they'd be forced to change, what it is they now do they could no longer do! IOW they can't put it down what they'd be losing because after all is said and done, they give up or "lose" nothing!


I have posted my opinion of what it is we would lose on more then one occasion. But you being new here, I guess you just haven’t been able to go back and read it. So unlike you when I asked you to provide proof, I won’t tell you to go find it I will repeat it just for your benefit. First thing you can do is read the post I put up from another site, where the guy didn’t bow hunt this last year because of letting the x-bow in, second read the post above by ncboman. Now this is my reason, the x-bow artificially rises the number of hunters in the woods during bow season, we only have to look at Ohio for our proof of that. Bowhunting has been about solitude, about hunting deer in an almost undisturbed setting, that is “lost” with over crowding. Second bow hunting is about using a bow, mastering the skill of using a bow, and learning how to get close and learning when to draw, and the many other facets of using a bow. That is lost. 

Bow hunting is special, if you don’t agree I suggest you hunt in another season. Bowhunting will be lost if we are forced into one season, with gun hunters, and this is where we are headed, by caving to other weapon types.

What is lost is, new comers learning what bow hunting is really about. What’s lost is new comers thinking that the shooting of your weapon is the least important thing about bow hunting. What’s lost is a tradition of bow hunting being for those that are a bit more dedicated, and willing to put in the extra effort. What is lost is the perception of bow hunting being a short range affair. 



> So we are back at "square one", once again, they don't want to share with other archery hunters who don't agree with them on ONE issue!


Wrong again, I want to share with all archery hunters, square one is, people that want to hunt during archery season without becoming an archery hunter. 



> Even going so far as to say crossbow hunters "don't belong" and aren't "bowhunters".....THAT is exactly the very attitude that abolished ALL bowhunting in Great Britain, but that seems to not matter at all!!!


That is so far out in left field I don’t even know if lie is the right word or not. Bow hunters not wanting to allow x-bows in, caused the demise of bowhunting in the UK????? 



> I am doing my very best to not argue, that being said, I am still waiting for some actual factual PROOF of exactly what they're "losing", I maintain they lose nothing, but gain much,


Again where is the proof of all these gains you speak of?



> Btw the "season" isn't "yours" to begin with, we participate in it, it doesn't belong to ANY select group; so others asking to join have EVERY right to do so, it's one thing to oppose an idea, quite another to demand "your season"(which is just as much every one else's ) be "left alone, or like it is"...


Btw it is to mine, and every other bow hunter out there, it certainly isn’t gun hunters season, it certainly isn’t sling shot season. If you have some self loathing aspect about you that doesn't allow you to take ownership of bow season,,, well I’m sorry for you. I love this sport, and take ownership of it, I work hard to perpetuate it and take pride in the fact that bow hunters have been and so far still are considered special, even if you don’t think so. If you don’t think it’s a special thing to be a bow hunter, then why don’t you just haul your brass on over to the gun season and leave the bow season for those that do think it’s special. 

Many in Ohio admit that bow hunting is going down the tubes in that state, too.


----------



## thesource

Free Range said:


> Btw it is to mine, and every other bow hunter out there, it certainly isn’t gun hunters season, it certainly isn’t sling shot season. If you have some self loathing aspect about you that doesn't allow you to take ownership of bow season,,, well I’m sorry for you. I love this sport, and take ownership of it, I work hard to perpetuate it and take pride in the fact that bow hunters have been and so far still are considered special, even if you don’t think so. If you don’t think it’s a special thing to be a bow hunter, then why don’t you just haul your brass on over to the gun season and leave the bow season for those that do think it’s special.


Well stated, Free Range.

I, too, have seen the extra respect given to bowhunters. I have multiple neighbors who do not hunt. They are not necessarily opposed to hunting, mind you, but they don't do it.

When they see me practicing with my bow in the yard, they inevitably stop to discuss hunting. The bottom line is this: "Well, it seems more fair that you hunt deer with a bow then a gun." When I come home from hunting, they are always interested to see if I "caught" something. (grrrrr)

Since becoming involved with these raging online debates, and the maddening twisted claims of crossbow proponents, I have asked more than a few of these neighbors what they would think of adding crossbows to bowseason.

The answer is ALWAYS the same: "That seems like cheating."

I would have to agree.


----------



## Tim4Trout

thesource said:


> When they see me practicing with my bow in the yard, they inevitably stop to discuss hunting. The bottom line is this: "Well, it seems more fair that you hunt deer with a bow then a gun." When I come home from hunting, they are always interested to see if I "caught" something. (grrrrr)
> 
> Since becoming involved with these raging online debates, and the maddening twisted claims of crossbow proponents, I have asked more than a few of these neighbors what they would think of adding crossbows to bowseason.
> 
> The answer is ALWAYS the same: "That seems like cheating."
> 
> I would have to agree.


It is quite doubtful however that they were provided with more than just your personal anti crossbow stance to base their judgement on ?


----------



## thesource

Not true, my militant right wing friend.

Upon further review, it appears that their natural belief is that a crossbow lies somewhere between a bow and a gun. I instill the truth that crossbows are legitimate deer hunting tools..... in the proper season.

It turns out that most come to terms with stringguns being a legitimate weapon, but none (to date) feels that crossbows belong with bows.

Think about the bigger picture, Tim. These nonhunters endorse bowhunting. They condemn crossbows in bowseason.

What does that tell you? And are you listening?


----------



## aceoky

Sorry, there is NOT one thing you call "loss" that forces anyone to change one iota, nothing! 

Please do not assume to tell me how I feel about bow hunting, you don't know me, and have no way of knowing, I unlike you see no reason however not to share it with others and btw, Ohio has had crossbows for 30 years, when exactly during that time frame, did the gun hunters "take over".....?? They haven't yet, still waiting are we??  

(your quote here: Bowhunting will be lost if we are forced into one season, with gun hunters, and this is where we are headed, by caving to other weapon types.) 

Wrong , wrong and wrong, hasn't happened anywhere ever! Adding another ARCHERY WEAPON during archery season in NO way "opens any doors for guns or even ML) MOST hunters are smart enough to know the difference!

FR "Wrong again, I want to share with all archery hunters, square one is, people that want to hunt during archery season without becoming an archery hunter." 

I'm happy to inform you that YOU don't get to decide what is archery, what isn't and what is/isnt' allowed! :wink: 

NO it isn't any more "YOUR season" than it is, mine, and every other bowhunter out there! (since when do YOU set the seasons,??? EXACTLY what control do YOU have on "YOUR SEASON"???) IF it's YOUR season, as you claim; then there is no need to debate anything, you would have the control, being it's your season??? Oh the DNR sets it? Then it's THEIR season, to do with what is best for EVERYONE, NOT a "select few" who feel "entitled" "elite" and "special".....THAT is the simple fact......

YOU again...... "Now this is my reason, the x-bow artificially rises the number of hunters in the woods during bow season, " .....

Exactly how is it "artificially raised"?? These hunters don't exist or what??  

Yet again "Bowhunting has been about solitude, about hunting deer in an almost undisturbed setting, that is “lost” with over crowding. "

Where is the data that proves "overcrowding"?? Who's defintion of "overcrowding" does one take? ONE hunter per square mile, three????  More importantly it PROVES the real reason, as I've said all along is sharing with MORE archery hunters!! Thanks for finally at least admitting that IS the real problem!

But wait you again: "What is lost is,* new comers *learning what bow hunting is really about. What’s lost is *new comers* thinking that the shooting of your weapon is the least important thing about bow hunting. 
How many crossbow hunters do you personally know who feel this way??? Their numbers are as rare as any archery hunters out there, the pursuit is the same, and they KNOW it! It's great that you think they are all thinking the exact same thing 


What’s lost is a *tradition* of bow hunting being for those that are a bit *more dedicated*, and willing to put in the *extra effort. *

"Tradition of bowhunting" died with the compound bow, and MOST know this, and accept that, along with the fact the compound has HELPED bowhunting numbers, a most important factor.... Just as you presume that ALL archers are "more dedicated", when we ALL know it's not true! We all have seen the guys at the pro shops the day or two before season opens buying brand new bows and arrows for THAT season! Same on the extra effort, certainly some do, but not even MOST do , and most hunters are aware of that.....faced with someone who doesn't practice enough, most of us would rather they use the crossbow, as the chances of them harming our entire image with wounded deer is less, how much so is "Subjective", but exists

*What is lost is the perception of bow hunting being a short range affair. *( the crossbow IS a short range weapon, instead of telling others to do more research, perhaps you should learn the facts of what you speak???)

YOU "That is so far out in left field I don’t even know if lie is the right word or not. Bow hunters not wanting to allow x-bows in, caused the demise of bowhunting in the UK????? "

YES that is EXACLTY what happened!


Quote:


Here is some interesting data from Ky's latest INDEPENDENT survey.......(done by Cornell, who's reputation speaks for itself)

*Bow hunters, however, were more likely to feel that hunter recruitment, and retention would improve with an expanded crossbow season(85% )..*

BTW the "expanded crossbow season" mentioned was to run the same exact dates as our current archey season(Sept 3- Jan 16).....

So at least here in Ky, bow hunters *favor the inclusion * of the crossbow for the entire season, and by a LARGE margin, maybe that's not the case elsewhere, but while I've seen it claimed, I have never seen the proof, yet I have the proof, it's posted right there, AND the survey(PDF) is online and available from the KDFWR web site.....

THAT is exactly why I support it so strongly, the majority of hunters and landowners support it, AND the MAJORITY of bowhunters do as well, as is proven above! I need NO other reason to do so! The fact that *I* have never shot one to me is not relevent in the least!


----------



## aceoky

* Bow hunters not wanting to allow x-bows in, caused the demise of bowhunting in the UK????? "*

Allow me please to elaborate on that.....

A group of archers in GB went to Parliment to try to keep the crossbow OUT of their season, the arguments they used were strong enough, that upon consideration the Parliment having done some discussing agreed, BUT also said that all bowhunting should be outlawed(and it was!)

I'm actually surprised that you wouldn't have known that, I've posted the entire "deal"(with links) many, many times to prove the point, of sharing is much better than having NOTHING to share! 

The MAIN argument that "cost it all" was it was "inhumane" as I recall.....so it was ruled ALL ARCHERY was "inhumane" and "just like that", made illegal!!!

Those who refuse to learn from History are destined to repeat it???


----------



## aceoky

Marvin said:


> you said that last time and your still going. Chicken little, chicken little, chicken little....... hows are we going to defeat ourselves ACE? Ohio just added more days to archery season...By your estimation they should be taking things away....chicken little....


Yes, I've said it before , and it's very likely I will many, many more times, last time I checked the HSUS, and their "allies" haven't changed agendas, the SA thread proves to most it's "real", call me anything you wish, your opinion on myself and anything else, is long wasted after that.......fwiw

Since when is the STATE OF OHIO, in ANY way associated with the HSUS, or ANY other ANTI-HUNTING org???? Since they are not, you're "post" means nothing, one thing has NOTHING to do with the other....

NOT by MY estimation, they should be taking anything away, I have always said more opportunity is a good thing, and even after 30 years of crossbows during the entire archery season on Ohio NONE of the things some suggest have occured or anything close....more proof sharing is good, those who wish to use a longbow in Ohio still do, those who wish to use a crossbow still do, after 30 years, guns have NOT taken over, but I'm still waiting on the "inevitable" as some want us to believe(sure is taking a long time, for it to happen though) 

You sure like calling me names, does it make you feel more "elite" or "special" to do so on the "net"?? 

And you could use some more education, chicken little kept saying "the sky is falling"(just as the anti-crossbow folks expound to the rooftops every chance they get) WE KNOW from the available data it won't happen....


----------



## thesource

aceoky said:


> Here is some interesting data from Ky's latest INDEPENDENT survey.......(done by Cornell, who's reputation speaks for itself)
> 
> *Bow hunters, however, were more likely to feel that hunter recruitment, and retention would improve with an expanded crossbow season(85% )..*


You are BUSTED. 

http://www.kdfwr.state.ky.us/pdf/crossbowfinalreport.pdf#search='ky%20cornell%20crossbow%20survey'

You left out an important part of the statement, oh endlessly spinning one:

_
Respondents – regardless of their opinions about expanding the crossbow season – were also asked if they thought the expansion would recruit hunters *unable to hunt with traditional archery equipment *into
deer or turkey hunting._

"Unable to use traditional archery equipment" is central to the response, you big ol' cheater. Once again, the crossbow lobby gets busted with half truth and misrepresentation. 

One wonders how you sleep at night.....yuck.

By the way....did you notice the biggest reason that hunters do not want crossbows in bowseason? News flash .... its not about sharing the woods .... its because they feel that "_CROSSBOWS ARE NOT BOWS_."

Double busted. 

I absolutely love it when one of you loudmouths is dumb enough to tee up a reference I can JAM back down your throat. Thanks for the assist, "ace".


----------



## retro-grouch

doctariAFC said:


> When speaking in terms of archery season, no benefit exists in holding a "primitive only" season, as, no matter what bow you choose, be it long bow, recurve, compound, crossbow, or compound crossbow, ALL of these weapons are primitive when compared in the right context as to what "primitive" means.
> 
> Let's remember, "primitive" in terms of hunting is non-modern firearm.
> 
> Archery season is for implements that are primitive by nature (throwing a stick with blades is far more primitive than even the roundball, patch and black powder) and without the "boom" of the firearm, deer do not "spook" into behavioral pattersn detrimental to archery hunting. ALL BOWS REQUIRE close proximity to be effective, and this I define as within 40 yards. True, a long bow or recurve may require closer proximity, but,. the presence of compound or crossbow hunters in the woods does not make the hunt exponentially more difficult for those hunting with long bow or recurve.
> 
> So, I say, so long as firearms remain out of early archery season, let the hunters choose their implement, including the crossbow.


How convenient that you would have a definition that would allow you to place you crossbow on parallel ground with a selfbow. Who would have thunk? Sorry "doc", your crossbow is not primitive. It may have been invented hundreds of years ago, but today's equipment is manufactured by modern machines utilizing the latest technology and materials to effect maximum performance. It isn't real archery equipment and should not even be considered in this discussion.

I voted to leave the season as they are. Just don't screw with my archery small game season:^)


----------



## Tim4Trout

thesource said:


> Not true, my militant right wing friend.
> 
> Upon further review, it appears that their natural belief is that a crossbow lies somewhere between a bow and a gun. I instill the truth that crossbows are legitimate deer hunting tools..... in the proper season.
> 
> It turns out that most come to terms with stringguns being a legitimate weapon, but none (to date) feels that crossbows belong with bows.
> 
> Think about the bigger picture, Tim. These nonhunters endorse bowhunting. They condemn crossbows in bowseason.
> 
> What does that tell you? And are you listening?


It simply adds to my suspicion that any judgement on crossbows by them is very likely being tainted by your venomous anti crossbow stance.

If I were certain that they were being presented with both sides of the crossbow issue and not just your's before coming to a conclusion, there is a stong chance that both their views and my opinion as to their alleged postion might take on a different perspective.

Of course I could just as easily come out and say that I have talked to my non hunting neighbors about crossbows and they told me they all support them. 

In other words your claim to such means little or nothing.

-----

Now getting back to the original topic. ( not just in response to "the source" )

One reason why I oppose a separate season for traditional bow hunters is that while a rifle has a much greater effective range than a muzzleloader, the difference in effectiveness in range between a compound and atraditional bow is not as significant.

On the other hand if there were to be a special season, perhaps they could do it for say opening weekend, ( i.e Fri Sat Sun ) which would not take away from the majority of bowhunters, but would still allow a few days specifically for "traditinalists".


----------



## gmbellew

retro-grouch said:


> Sorry "doc", your crossbow is not primitive. It may have been invented hundreds of years ago, but today's equipment is manufactured by modern machines utilizing the latest technology and materials to effect maximum performance. It isn't real archery equipment and should not even be considered in this discussion.


:confused3:


----------



## aceoky

*Busted NOT.....*

No thanks needed, YOU are being "educated" for your arogance)


thesource said:


> You are BUSTED.
> 
> http://www.kdfwr.state.ky.us/pdf/crossbowfinalreport.pdf#search='ky%20cornell%20crossbow%20survey'
> 
> You left out an important part of the statement, oh _endlessly spinning one_:
> 
> _
> Respondents – regardless of their opinions about expanding the crossbow season – were also asked if they thought the expansion would recruit hunters *unable to hunt with traditional archery equipment *into
> deer or turkey hunting._ NOPE and I'll prove it below!
> 
> "Unable to use traditional archery equipment" is central to the response, you big ol' cheater. Once again, the crossbow lobby gets busted with half truth and misrepresentation.
> 
> ( I am not the one using "half truth here" I live here, and KNOW what is "what"..)
> One wonders how you sleep at night.....yuck.
> 
> By the way....did you notice *the biggest reason that hunters do not want crossbows in bowseason? * News flash .... its not about sharing the woods .... its because they feel that "_CROSSBOWS ARE NOT BOWS_." Not even close to true, again I'll prove it below)
> 
> Double busted. ( I've proven that misinformation below as well, as the "other things" We'll soon see who IS busted!)I absolutely love it when one of you loudmouths is dumb enough to tee up a reference I can JAM back down your throat. Thanks for the assist, "ace". (


 (thank you, you've more than helped)

Well, we'll let others decide who is and isn't "dumb enough" on what is posted, consider I live here KNOW the facts on this survey far better than most, for reasons you don't seserve to know , yet you presume to "correct me" on it...YEP , I must be the "dumb one here"


1. Purpose The Kentucky Department of Fish and Wildlife Resources (KDFWR) has received numerous requests over the past 5 years to extend the crossbow-hunting season. Additionally, the KDFWR recognizes a need to increase the harvest of whitetail deer in a large percentage of the state. *In 2002*,(FIRST SURVEY BTW).. the KDFWR conducted a hunter survey that was mailed to 13,500 hunters in Kentucky – “What do you think about the use of crossbows during archery season?” Using the data from the survey and with the knowledge that an extended crossbow-hunting season would not have a negative impact on the resource, KDFWR recently proposed an extension of the crossbow-hunting season for whitetail deer and wild turkeys from the historical framework of a 10-day season to running at the same time as archery season (first Saturday in Sept. through the third Monday in Jan.).* A minority of hunters *(KDFWR received only 22 written comments in opposition to the season) *lobbied legislators to terminate the season*. *KDFWR has committed to surveying hunters in more depth regarding this issue. As a result, KDFWR contracted with the Survey Research Institute at Cornell University to survey hunters and landowners to understand their level of support for an extended crossbow hunting season. This study focused on opinions about the feasibility of a crossbow season that runs concurrently with the archery season, as well as opinions on the impact of crossbow hunting on the whitetail deer and wild turkey population.*

*4.4 Opinions About Season Expansions All respondents were asked if they would support or oppose expanding crossbow season from its current time frame to a time frame that runs concurrently with archery season. *

THAT WAS WHAT WAS ASKED!(and the entire purpose of Ky paying $70,000+ for this survey!)




BUSTED NOT!

Survey Research Institute ● Cornell University ● www.sri.cornell.edu ● Voice: (607) 255-3786 ● Fax: (607) 255-7118
8
63% of hunting sample support expanding crossbow season for deer, 62% for turkey (higher for Districts 5, 7, 8 and 9)

Those who opposed the expansion for either deer or turkey were asked if three other expansion options might be acceptable. The vast majority (83% or 79 landowners out of 360 surveyed, 68% or *650 hunting sample out of 3240 *surveyed) said that none of these other options were viable either, *indicating that they are inflexible about the idea of a crossbow season expansion at all. *(READ MINORITY HERE)

*7% said crossbows are not bows 7% thought it would increase the number of out-of-state hunters *(7% of those above said "not bows" AND 7% said "out of state hunters".......WHO is "busted NOW"??)

*only, 39% *said *do not expand at all*Survey Research Institute ● Cornell University ● www.sri.cornell.edu ● Voice: (607) 255-3786 ● Fax: (607) 255-7118 (busted, I don't think so but wait there is MORE)

). The bow/arrow method of hunting was also used more often among deer hunters – again, this was truer of deer hunters from the hunting sample than the landowners who said they hunted deer (42% landowners vs. 62% hunters). 

(YOU DON"T want the modern gun/ML numbers):darkbeer: 

*All counties in Kentucky were represented –*

. The* vast majority *of respondents (particularly those from the hunting sample) said that they agreed strongly or somewhat that the KDFWR is doing a good job 

*All respondents were asked if they would support or oppose expanding crossbow season from its current time frame to a time frame that runs concurrently with archery season. *

The *leading reason *given by landowners was that crossbows are unsafe (24% vs. 12% hunters). Additional reasons cited by about one out of ten or more *were not wanting crossbow hunters in the woods with th*em (20% landowners, 15% hunters) (BUSTED YOU! NOT even close to what you tried to say is it now??) Leading reason wasn't "they're not a bow" nor was it even that close, but that didn't stop you from bragging how you RAM it down my throat.....as is usual, you don't need any facts, but all the while act like YOU have them all and no one else has any relevent facts, and again YOU lose.....

*Expanded Crossbow Season Would Recruit New Hunters(% Yes)77.7 No statistically significant differences were found by Commission District (See Table 13). Bow hunters, however, were more likely to feel that hunter recruitment and retention would improve with an expanded crossbow season (85% vs. 77% non-bow hunters). *



So , in short, YOU accused me of "spinning" and "leaving out important parts" when YOU in fact did exaclty THAT yourself! Next time you *try* to "JAM back down your throat." and accuse ME of "big ol' cheater." AND (if that weren't enough) "busted with half truth and misrepresentation." YOU just might want to think about how much I KNOW about this survey, and I have NO reason to "spin" or "misrepresent" it at all! After all it PROVES what we've *known since 1997*.

Here IS the ONE YOU posted (not even the same question btw, YOU are BUSTED!) It's obvious as well, (oh scientific one), since the numbers are NOT the same!


*29*
*Respondents – regardless of their opinions about expanding the crossbow season – were also asked if they thought the expansion would recruit hunters unable to hunt with traditional archery equipment into deer or turkey hunting. Overall, hunters (78%) were more likely than landowners (68%) to believe that this would happen. (See Chart 11*
There IT is exactly as it is on the KDFWR web page, NO WHERE does it mention what you are trying to say, as anyone can easily see.......it say exactly what I said it does(though I only quoted the first time about bow hunters ONLY)........no way your "spin" will change the FACTS OF THE MATTER!

HOW do *YOU* sleep at night?? Actiing like you've found information, about the survey I posted??? When in fact, you had to use a WHOLE DIFFERENT QUESTION to even* appear* to have something?

And I'm the "dumb one"?? Here IS the actual "clickable link" 

http://www.kdfwr.state.ky.us/pdf/crossbowfinalreport.pdf#search='ky%20cornell%20cro ssbow%20survey'

EVERYONE can easily read it for themselves and conclude that the MAJORITY of Ky hunters support the crossbow for the entire season! Maybe they do or do not elsewhere and that isn't MY point, but here in KY they DO, and that IS my point! AND I have the facts to 100% back it up as well! Two surveys for "starters" which were done three years apart and by seperate entities........

They can also easily see the main reason those who WON'T support it at all, DON'T WANT TO SHARE WITH OTHER HUNTERS....... it IS right there for all to see! So next time you decide to correct ME on Ky matters, perhaps, though I doubt it, you'l remember who IS "in touch" with the very heartbeat of HIS state??? I don't try to tell YOU (or anyone else) what IS wanted in THEIR state, so please try to show me the same respect??? Fair Enough??(IOW no more "busted" or "RAM down my throat BS)

There is much more, but I think most can see who's "busted" and who KNOWS the facts, it's not you "newsflash"


----------



## thesource

aceoky said:


> No thanks needed, YOU are being "educated" for your arogance
> 
> Well, we'll let others decide who is and isn't "dumb enough" on what is posted, consider I live here KNOW the facts on this survey far better than most, for reasons you don't seserve to know , yet you presume to "correct me" on it...YEP , I must be the "dumb one here"


Let me get this straight...Only those who live in KY understand the survey?

Guess where Cornell, is...dum dum. The folks who ran your survey do not live in KY, they are from NY. I think your myopic viewpoint has been sufficiently trashed, let's move on.

Here is what you stated as a fact:


aceoky said:


> Here is some interesting data from Ky's latest INDEPENDENT survey.......(done by Cornell, who's reputation speaks for itself)
> 
> *Bow hunters, however, were more likely to feel that hunter recruitment, and retention would improve with an expanded crossbow season(85% )..*



Now where does the number come from? Oh, its right here:
_
Respondents – regardless of their opinions about expanding the crossbow season – were also asked if they thought the expansion would recruit hunters unable to hunt with traditional archery equipment into deer or turkey hunting. Overall, hunters (78%) were more likely than landowners (68%) to believe that this would happen.
No statistically significant differences were found by Commission District (See Table 13). Bow hunters, however, were more likely to feel that hunter recruitment and retention would improve with an expanded crossbow season (*85%* vs. 77% non-bow hunters). _

And as you (and anyone else can see, it is direct response to the question of if they thought the expansion would recruit hunters *unable *to hunt with traditional archery equipment into deer or turkey hunting. 

*Just like I said. Liar, liar, pants on fire.*



With regards to reasons opposed, let's look at that more closely.

_Those who said they still opposed any crossbow season expansion, even after being given several other options to choose from, were asked the primary reason for their opposition. 
The reasons provided were somewhat different for landowners and hunters. *Hunters were most likely to say that crossbows are not bows *(35% vs. 7% landowners). The leading reason given by landowners was that crossbows are unsafe (24% vs. 12% hunters). _

*Just like I said. Liar, liar, pants on fire, times 2.*


You don't need to live in KY to be able to read this report. My points are valid, and you look foolish for arguing against what everyone can see in black and white.

You tried to snip a piece out of context and got caught doing it. 

Shame on you.


----------



## oldbhtrnewequip

thesource said:


> The answer is ALWAYS the same: "That seems like cheating."
> 
> I would have to agree.


cheating who?


----------



## doctariAFC

ncboman said:


> :secret:
> 
> I was in Ohio sittin up my climber one morning when I saw a couple of guys with xguns in the distance headed my way. They were working along the side of a drainage and at spots one would stand ready and the other would go down and probe the thick trying to flush bedded deer. As they got closer I noticed one spot they both took vantage points and threw rocks down into the thick attempting to roust a deer. None were jumped so they continued on along and passed near the tree where I was perched undetected. I could hear them talking about where their truck was parked and how they were going to cross the ridge and circle back on another hollow and head back that way. They weren't being particularly quiet in their talking back and forth and even after I lost sight of them I could still hear voices as they moved along in their quest.
> 
> Now I'm just a country boy from North Carolina and don't know much so perhaps someone can help me out.
> 
> I felt I lost something that morning but have a difficult time defining exactly what it was.


I believe you would have lost the same thing had it been two yayas with compounds or recurves engaged in the same thing. I have been through this countless times in NYS hunting Allegany State Park. The crossbow didn't screw up your hunt, two meat head hunters did.

Get your facts straight and bring some honesty into the debate. It's like the anti gun argument in a nutshell. Guns don't kill people, people kill people. Ditto with the crossbow. The crossbow doesn't get itself up and hunt the woods by its lonesome. You need a meat head hunter to do that. THis is not unique and limited to firearms, longbows, compounds, recurves or crossbows. Its a behavioral issue with some hunters.

SO, try to convey some reality in your statements. This kind of BS you have spouted is typically reserved for foks named Barbara Boxer, Nancy Pelosi, Hillary Clinton and Cynthia McKinney. Are you related to any of them?


----------



## oldbhtrnewequip

retro-grouch said:


> How convenient that you would have a definition that would allow you to place you crossbow on parallel ground with a selfbow. Who would have thunk? Sorry "doc", your crossbow is not primitive. It may have been invented hundreds of years ago, but today's equipment is manufactured by modern machines utilizing the latest technology and materials to effect maximum performance. It isn't real archery equipment and should not even be considered in this discussion.
> 
> I voted to leave the season as they are. Just don't screw with my archery small game season:^)


You say "today's equipment is manufactured by modern machines utilizing the latest technology and materials to effect maximum performance." 

Do you mean only crossbows or do you mean the majority of all types of bowhunting equipment in use?


----------



## doctariAFC

retro-grouch said:


> How convenient that you would have a definition that would allow you to place you crossbow on parallel ground with a selfbow. Who would have thunk? Sorry "doc", your crossbow is not primitive. It may have been invented hundreds of years ago, but today's equipment is manufactured by modern machines utilizing the latest technology and materials to effect maximum performance. It isn't real archery equipment and should not even be considered in this discussion.
> 
> I voted to leave the season as they are. Just don't screw with my archery small game season:^)


Bring some facts to the table, and make your point beyond your own opinion. If we're talking "traditional", then all hunting equipment must be made of wood, with cat gut strings. A composite recurve is far from traditional, far less traditional than a primitive wooden crossbow. So, again, you have made an argument that belies a selfish, elitist attitude. Use wooden arrows and primitive broadheads as well. No punch-cutters. This goes for both long-bows/ self bows/ recurves AND wooden crossbows. I would also go the next step. No sights on any implement. No peep sights, no kisser buttons, hell, no nock points, either. No releases, and no mechanical draw aides for crossbows. You want traditional? Let's get traditionl. Then let's see how many hunters actually hunt this time. My guess (and its only a guess) would be very, very few. And if that is the case, I am pretty confident the end result is to benefit elitists, not hunters as a whole.

Nice try, but you are so far off base, it is hard to tell what stadium you're playing in.


----------



## oldbhtrnewequip

aceoky said:


> Hunting isn't and shouldn't be a "competitive sport", it's done for one's individual reasons and "satisfaction" comes in different ways to different people, that is about as traditional as it gets! Been that way for many centuries,


Is it a non-competitive 'sport?' Is there such a thing as a non-competitive sport? Why do we call it a sport when everyone else thinks of sport means something else?

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=sport

sport ( P ) Pronunciation Key (spôrt, sprt)
n. 

Physical activity that is governed by a set of rules or customs and often engaged in competitively. 
A particular form of this activity. 
An activity involving physical exertion and skill that is governed by a set of rules or customs and often undertaken competitively. 
An active pastime; recreation. 

If its done for 'one's individual reasons and satisfaction, then why do the harbingers of hunting as a sport, ostensibly P&Y and B&C have books and asterisks?

I think you hit the nail on the head when you said ' "satisfaction" comes in different ways to different people.' One of those ways is on a competitive level.

Why do we call them 'game' animals?

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=game

*A competitive activity or sport in which players contend with each other according to a set of rules: the game of basketball; the game of gin rummy. 
....
Wild animals, birds, or fish hunted for food or sport. 
The flesh of these animals, eaten as food. *

If it wasn't a sport we wouldn't have people, hunters and non-hunters alike calling other hunters, namely crossbow hunters, cheaters. 

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=cheat

...
*v. intr.
To act dishonestly; practice fraud. 
To violate rules deliberately, as in a game: was accused of cheating at cards. *
...

You're aware of Great Britain. Certainly for centuries it was considered sport by the nobility. True? Do you think they did it competitively?


----------



## ncboman

doctariAFC said:


> I believe you would have lost the same thing had it been two yayas with compounds or recurves engaged in the same thing. I have been through this countless times in NYS hunting Allegany State Park. The crossbow didn't screw up your hunt, two meat head hunters did.
> 
> Get your facts straight and bring some honesty into the debate. It's like the anti gun argument in a nutshell. Guns don't kill people, people kill people. Ditto with the crossbow. The crossbow doesn't get itself up and hunt the woods by its lonesome. You need a meat head hunter to do that. THis is not unique and limited to firearms, longbows, compounds, recurves or crossbows. Its a behavioral issue with some hunters.
> 
> SO, try to convey some reality in your statements. This kind of BS you have spouted is typically reserved for foks named Barbara Boxer, Nancy Pelosi, Hillary Clinton and Cynthia McKinney. Are you related to any of them?





> Get your facts straight and bring some honesty into the debate.


Since you're the MODERATOR of this forum and have called me a liar and dishonest, I'll let you have your forum but I'll be nice enough to let you figure out where to shove it. *** :nono: Make a responsible statement, as the truth of having a hunt ruined by a hunter has NOTHING to do with what implement they happen to choose. That is a hunter issue, not an implement issue. doctariAFC ***


----------



## oldbhtrnewequip

thesource said:


> I absolutely love it when one of you loudmouths is dumb enough to tee up a reference I can JAM back down your throat. Thanks for the assist, "ace".


Even the most casual observer might suggest that you have a pretty competitive attitude that is laced with sports analogies. Do you talk the same way to non bow hunters prior to them coming to the conclusion that crossbow hunters 'cheat?" 

Do you consider this a sport where competition exists between hunters?


----------



## oldbhtrnewequip

doctariAFC said:


> Nice try, but you are so far off base, it is hard to tell what stadium you're playing in.


More sports analogy:thumb:


----------



## Marvin

aceoky said:


> Those who opposed the expansion for either deer or turkey were asked if three other expansion options might be acceptable. The vast majority (83% or 79 landowners out of 360 surveyed, 68% or *650 hunting sample out of 3240 *surveyed) said that none of these other options were viable either, *indicating that they are inflexible about the idea of a crossbow season expansion at all. *(READ MINORITY HERE)
> 
> [


Ace ...Nice math

79 landowners out of 360 equates to about *22%* 

650 hunters out of 3240 is about* 20 % * I would have to call you a spin doctor here. It actually pretty funny.


----------



## Marvin

doctariAFC said:


> I believe you would have lost the same thing had it been two yayas with compounds or recurves engaged in the same thing. I have been through this countless times in NYS hunting Allegany State Park. The crossbow didn't screw up your hunt, two meat head hunters did.
> 
> Get your facts straight and bring some honesty into the debate. It's like the anti gun argument in a nutshell. Guns don't kill people, people kill people. Ditto with the crossbow. The crossbow doesn't get itself up and hunt the woods by its lonesome. You need a meat head hunter to do that. THis is not unique and limited to firearms, longbows, compounds, recurves or crossbows. Its a behavioral issue with some hunters.
> 
> SO, try to convey some reality in your statements. This kind of BS you have spouted is typically reserved for foks named Barbara Boxer, Nancy Pelosi, Hillary Clinton and Cynthia McKinney. Are you related to any of them?



Meathead hunters are more likely to pick up a crossbow than a verticle so it does make a difference. Ohio is a shining star


----------



## doctariAFC

Marvin said:


> Meathead hunters are more likely to pick up a crossbow than a verticle so it does make a difference. Ohio is a shining star


Now I'm gonna call you on that one Marvin... Prove it.


----------



## aceoky

:darkbeer:


thesource said:


> Let me get this straight...Only those who live in KY understand the survey?
> 
> Guess where Cornell, is...dum dum. The folks who ran your survey do not live in KY, they are from NY. I think your myopic viewpoint has been sufficiently trashed, let's move on.
> 
> Here is what you stated as a fact:
> 
> 
> 
> Now where does the number come from? Oh, its right here:
> _
> Respondents – regardless of their opinions about expanding the crossbow season – were also asked if they thought the expansion would recruit hunters unable to hunt with traditional archery equipment into deer or turkey hunting. Overall, hunters (78%) were more likely than landowners (68%) to believe that this would happen.
> _
> 
> And as you (and anyone else can see, it is direct response to the question of if they thought the expansion would recruit hunters *unable *to hunt with traditional archery equipment into deer or turkey hunting.
> 
> *Just like I said. Liar, liar, pants on fire.*
> 
> 
> 
> With regards to reasons opposed, let's look at that more closely.
> 
> _Those who said they still opposed any crossbow season expansion, even after being given several other options to choose from, were asked the primary reason for their opposition.
> The reasons provided were somewhat different for landowners and hunters. *Hunters were most likely to say that crossbows are not bows *(35% vs. 7% landowners). The leading reason given by landowners was that crossbows are unsafe (24% vs. 12% hunters). _
> 
> *Just like I said. Liar, liar, pants on fire, times 2.*
> 
> 
> You don't need to live in KY to be able to read this report. My points are valid, and you look foolish for arguing against what everyone can see in black and white.
> 
> You tried to snip a piece out of context and got caught doing it.
> 
> Shame on you.


NO shame on you for taking "out of context" and pretending that is the same on I used, here it is again:

*Expanded Crossbow Season Would Recruit New Hunters(% Yes)77.7 No statistically significant differences were found by Commission District (See Table 13). Bow hunters, however, were more likely to feel that hunter recruitment and retention would improve with an expanded crossbow season (85% vs. 77% non-bow hunters). *

YOURS : I]
Respondents *– regardless of their opinions *about expanding the crossbow season – were also asked if they thought the expansion would recruit hunters unable to hunt with traditional archery equipment into deer or turkey hunting. Overall, hunters (78%) were more likely than landowners (68%) to believe that this would happen.
. [/I]

(where is See Table 13 in YOURS??, ALSO AGAIN, the numbers do NOT match, there mr scientific......it's easy to see THESE are NOT the same two questions, YES they asked, IF they were unable, and they also didn't include that, if anyone's a "liar" it's certainly NOT me!)



ANYONE can clearly see; these are two different questions, and can just as easily click the link and see for themselves who's TRYING to do what here, (hint" it's not me)

I'm very much aware of where Cornell, is and exactly WHY they were contracted, guess you are as well??? IF so, how about YOU prove it?? 

Living in KY does however mean we ACTUALLY *care *what the survey says, (and don't need to take anything out of context, as it CLEARLY shows what the VAST MAJORITY WANT, and that is FULL EXPANSION) no matter what type of "spin" you *try* to put on any of this the main fact won't change, we in KY want the crossbow to run with the archery season, and it very soon will, bet on it!

It's funny , that twice now I've shown you that YOU are *trying* to use an entirely different question and response to disprove a point that I made, and you're failing in a big way!

On your other "point" of why the majority of the minority didn't want the expansion, I honeslty do not care ; The KDFWR don't exist to cater to the MINORITY, over the MAJORITY , nice try, but it's a moot point, the majority want it, what different reasons given for the minority not wanting it, and/or their opinions are not in the least relevent, so what IF some don't think it's a "bow"??? THEY are a very small percentage, compared to those who wish it to be expanded, and IN AMERICA the Majority rules! 
:darkbeer: 

So nice try, but you've failed to prove anything, even possibly relevent to this topic, WE know what the survey proves, IF you don't then I honeslty don't know what to say to help you better understand , that IN KY, after TWO surveys, it's a proven fact the majority of hunters AND landowners want the crossbow included, you will never change that fact!


----------



## Marvin

doctariAFC said:


> Now I'm gonna call you on that one Marvin... Prove it.


No problem. We went through this in the Crossbow forum. The accident rate for the crossbow is higher than the others archery tackle. Plus i hunt in OHIO....I see them every day.....Got two in my family not that it means much but experience counts for something.


----------



## aceoky

doctariAFC said:


> *Bring some facts to the table, and make your point beyond your own opinion. *
> If we're talking "traditional", then all hunting equipment must be made of wood, with cat gut strings. A composite recurve is far from traditional, far less traditional than a primitive wooden crossbow. So, again, you have made an argument that belies a selfish, elitist attitude. Use wooden arrows and primitive broadheads as well. No punch-cutters. This goes for both long-bows/ self bows/ recurves AND wooden crossbows. I would also go the next step. No sights on any implement. No peep sights, no kisser buttons, hell, no nock points, either. No releases, and no mechanical draw aides for crossbows. You want traditional? Let's get traditionl. Then let's see how many hunters actually hunt this time. My guess (and its only a guess) would be very, very few. And if that is the case, I am pretty confident the end result is to benefit elitists, not hunters as a whole.
> 
> Nice try, but you are so far off base, it is hard to tell what stadium you're playing in.


Very well said!


----------



## aceoky

Pete , good points and very well made; allow me to rephrase;

*I* don't think that hunting should be a competitive sport;I think it involves many factors but imho competition isn't good for us, and gives non-hunters(not just anti hunters) a reason to "dislike" what we do, most non hunters are fine with meat hunting, but oppose antler hunting for example(yes the stats do exist btw)  

Most people can relate with the desire to put fresh meat on the table, many though don't understand the big rack, mentality, and again only my opinion(but based mostly on those figures) and feel the "competition" for big racks, is a "bad thing" in and of itself.... 

Having said, that; *I* don't have anything against any "trophy hunters", but when some try to get everyone else to let buck < 3 1/2 years old "walk", many get upset, it's their hunt, and some just don't care about racks, and are more interested in the whole hunt, not only the racks, and there is plenty of room for both imho....


----------



## Free Range

> They haven't yet, still waiting are we??


Yep? I have to agree with you, it hasn’t happen, YET



> I'm happy to inform you that YOU don't get to decide what is archery, what isn't and what is/isnt' allowed!


Well I’m happy to inform you, I do, and so do you, you should have learned that in the civic leason you guys had this year in KY. 



> what is best for EVERYONE, NOT a "select few"


So that survey you guys did in KY this past year means nothing? The DNR should do what they think is best, regardless of what we the people think??? Strange socialist concept you have there Ace, are you sure you live in the USA? 



> Exactly how is it "artificially raised"?? These hunters don't exist or what??


Well it’s not all that hard to understand, with the x-bow you get non-bow hunters in the woods, (see artificial), without it you don’t. Please try to stay up will you. 



> More importantly it PROVES the real reason, as I've said all along is sharing with MORE archery hunters!!


Again you fail to understand the simple concept. And you are twisting and spinning, I never said I didn’t want to share the woods with other bow hunters. In fact I could go back and quote a multitude of times I said the opposite. 



> Where is the data that proves "overcrowding"?? Who's defintion of "overcrowding" does one take?


I like to take the word of all the bow hunters in Ohio that hunt public ground and have stated, it just isn’t hardly worth bow hunting any more, because of over crowding. And the funny thing is, it should be the other way around. With the 30 year trend of losing hunters the crowding issue should be taking care of itself, but it’s not. You know why? Because more and more hunters are Deer hunting and more of them are turning to the x-bow, so they can take advantage of the archery season, instead of contribute to it. 



> Same on the extra effort, certainly some do, but not even MOST do


Ace you need to hang out with different folks, because *Most *everyone I know that bow hunts does put in that extra effort. I guess that old saying about you are who you hang around with is true. 



> Bow hunters, however, were more likely to feel that hunter recruitment, and retention would improve with an expanded crossbow season(85% )..
> 
> So at least here in Ky, bow hunters favor the inclusion of the crossbow for the entire season, and by a LARGE margin,


You have a funny way of reading, that doesn’t say they are in favor of inclusion, now be honest, it doesn’t now does it? It says they “FEEL” that hunter recruitment and retention would improve. And we all know how you feel about, FEEL, and how that is only opinion. Should I go over to your hiding place and bring some quotes here for the rest to read about you and the word FEEL. 



> Those who refuse to learn from History are destined to repeat it???


And those that spin history are fools. If you think that the exclusion of the x-bow was the only, or even the main, or anything more then a side note as to the reason bowhunting was outlawed in the UK then you are,,,well,,, not informed. 



> those who wish to use a longbow in Ohio still do, those who wish to use a crossbow still do, after 30 years,


Yes and they have the great opportunity of carrying on a conversation with their fellow hunter as they are setting in neighboring trees. 



> The crossbow doesn't get itself up and hunt the woods by its lonesome. You need a meat head hunter to do that.


Did they chose a x-bow because they are meat heads or are they meat heads because they choose a x-bow, now that is the question. Sorry Doc, just trying to lighten things up a bit.

But in truth, his statement goes directly to overcrowding, the more people involved in any activity the more chance of running into meat heads. Likewise the easier you make something, the more likely it is meat heads will be drawn to the flame.


----------



## aceoky

Marvin; IF you have a problem with the "math", you'll need to take that up with Cornell! It's not "my math", as you should have noticed, I'd think, I simply copied THEIR survey results, and posted those here.....not my math or my problem, if you have any problems with any of it, take it with Cornell, if you wish, I'm certain, they'll be looking forward to your correcting them! :wink: 

BTW, I'm calling you on the accident rate for the crossbow in Ohio, speaking of "math", IF you have ANY proof of this, post it up! I'm looking forward very much to your doing so, and by "higher" exactly by how much???? 

We'll be waiting for you to prove that ......


----------



## Free Range

> Marvin; IF you have a problem with the "math", you'll need to take that up with Cornell! It's not "my math", as you should have noticed, I'd think, I simply copied THEIR survey results, and posted those here.....not my math or my problem, if you have any problems with any of it, take it with Cornell, if you wish, I'm certain, they'll be looking forward to your correcting them!


So now it their math and their study, I thought you were the master of information about this study, which is it, do you believe their survey is gospel or not?


----------



## aceoky

I'll admit, on the original question of this thread, I'm a bit confused, are there actually states that limit, traditional archery weapons during the archery season? 

Here in Ky one can use any archery weapon (excluding the crossbow, which has just gained several more days, with more soon to follow), so I'm not sure I really understand the reason for asking about a traditional season unless they're not allowed for some reason???

IOW if they're allowed, wouldn't this "special season" only limit hunters and remove oppotunity from other bowhunters? I'm actually serious and curious, about the "why" on this one......


----------



## aceoky

Free Range said:


> So now it their math and their study, I thought you were the master of information about this study, which is it, do you believe their survey is gospel or not?


YES I support and beleive the survey 100%, but still it's NOT my survey, I didn't do it, Cornell did the entire thing, start to finish, *their* survey* their m*ath, not very hard to understand really.... 

I don't know about "master of information", but some(read several) in the Ky Legislature were VERY interested in my FACTS on it, after the oppostition got them involved.... whatever that means:wink:


----------



## Marvin

aceoky said:


> YES I support and beleive the survey 100%, but still it's NOT my survey, I didn't do it, Cornell did the entire thing, start to finish, *their* survey* their m*ath, not very hard to understand really....
> 
> I don't know about "master of information", but some(read several) in the Ky Legislature were VERY interested in my FACTS on it, after the oppostition got them involved.... whatever that means:wink:


 so you are saying you 100 % fully support their screwy math......Typical form your side....what fits the agenda....Put the blinders on and don't question it....Oh wait thats the Big tent theory in a nutjob...I mena nut shell...


----------



## Free Range

> IOW if they're allowed, wouldn't this "special season" only limit hunters and remove oppotunity from other bowhunters? I'm actually serious and curious, about the "why" on this one......


You shouldn’t be, just consider who it’s coming from. 


And as far as I know there isn’t any states that limit traditional weapons. There are some areas, in some states that only allow traditional bows to be allowed on that property, one that comes to mind is McCallister ammunition depot in Oklahoma, no compounds, and no x-bows.


----------



## aceoky

Free Range said:


> Yep? I have to agree with you, it hasn’t happen, YET ( NOT in 30 years, exaclty how long does it take to prove your ideas/opinions??)
> 
> 
> 
> Well I’m happy to inform you, I do, and so do you, you should have learned that in the civic leason you guys had this year in KY. .
> 
> (THAT was ONLY mentioned to strike a nerve, but I'm not "biting", that was once, a stupid end run to the Ky Legislature, to change how EVERYTHING is done IN KY to try to stop the expansion, btw it didn't work, we still got SOME and will get more, bet on that!)
> 
> 
> 
> So that survey you guys did in KY this past year means nothing? The DNR should do what they think is best, regardless of what we the people think??? Strange socialist concept you have there Ace, are you sure you live in the USA?
> 
> First we don't have a DNR, so that makes no sense, secondly, NO the KDFWR should follow the survey results AND proceed with the expansion as requested by the MAJOIRITY ,(which btw is EXACTLY what was attempted) in the USA the MAJORITY NOT MINORITY rules so YES I live in the USA where majority not minorities rule....fwiw)
> 
> 
> 
> Well it’s not all that hard to understand, with the x-bow you get non-bow hunters in the woods, (see artificial), without it you don’t. Please try to stay up will you.
> 
> THAT is ONLY YOUR opinion, please show plenty of facts to prove that, then you can try to "stay up", if you can!
> 
> 
> 
> Again you fail to understand the simple concept. And you are twisting and spinning, I never said I didn’t want to share the woods with other bow hunters. In fact I could go back and quote a multitude of times I said the opposite.
> 
> Yet ONLY those whom YOU decide fit YOUR defenition of "bow hunters" AGAIN that is NOT your decision to get to make!
> 
> 
> 
> I like to take the word of all the bow hunters in Ohio that hunt public ground and have stated, it just isn’t hardly worth bow hunting any more, because of over crowding. And the funny thing is, it should be the other way around. With the 30 year trend of losing hunters the crowding issue should be taking care of itself, but it’s not. You know why? Because more and more hunters are Deer hunting and more of them are turning to the x-bow, so they can take advantage of the archery season, instead of contribute to it.
> 
> Well, which is it? MORE OR LESS?????? It can't be both now can it??? Yeah, I'm :"spinning" and your "facts" are "solid" NOT!
> 
> 
> 
> Ace you need to hang out with different folks, because *Most *everyone I know that bow hunts does put in that extra effort. I guess that old saying about you are who you hang around with is true.
> 
> AND I suppose you hang out with the VAST MAJORITY of the bowhunters in our Nation, NO you do NOT , I stand by my statement!
> 
> 
> 
> You have a funny way of reading, that doesn’t say they are in favor of inclusion, now be honest, it doesn’t now does it? It says they “FEEL” that hunter recruitment and retention would improve. And we all know how you feel about, FEEL, and how that is only opinion. Should I go over to your hiding place and bring some quotes here for the rest to read about you and the word FEEL.
> 
> NO YOU need to learn to read and comprehend what YOU read much, much better , here it is (at a waste of bandwith, only to PROVE that IS exactly what it said)
> 
> 4.4 Opinions About Season Expansions
> 
> *All respondents were asked if they would support or oppose expanding crossbow season from its current time frame to a time frame that runs concurrently with archery season. *
> 
> THAT WAS WHAT WAS ASKED
> 
> I fail to see the word "Feelings" there at all! THAT was the whole intent of the survey to ANSWER THAT QUESTION, IF you don't understand that simple concept, and FACT, there is simply NO good reason for this to continue.....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And those that spin history are fools. If you think that the exclusion of the x-bow was the only, or even the main, or anything more then a side note as to the reason bowhunting was outlawed in the UK then you are,,,well,,, not informed.
> 
> OK PROVE ME WRONG THEN!
> 
> The challenge is made, I KNOW what occured, I posted it , refute it IF you can!! And let's hurry up, wouldn't want to to "forget" to do so, here is your chance to prove me wrong, NOT accuse me, and "twist" things around show ME some REAL FACTS that DISPROVE what I posted about what occured, put up or SHUT UP!
> 
> 
> 
> Yes and they have the great opportunity of carrying on a conversation with their fellow hunter as they are setting in neighboring trees.
> 
> 
> 
> Did they chose a x-bow because they are meat heads or are they meat heads because they choose a x-bow, now that is the question. Sorry Doc, just trying to lighten things up a bit.
> 
> But in truth, his statement goes directly to overcrowding, the more people involved in any activity the more chance of running into meat heads. Likewise the easier you make something, the more likely it is meat heads will be drawn to the flame.



Again YOUR opinion, NO facts support the "overcrowding" anywhere, and IF what you said WERE in fact true, since eveyrone knows MOST deer hunters ARE GUN HUNTERS, there is more than ample opportunities NOW for the meat heads to be out there, again, it simply comes down to ONE thing...

YOU don't want MORE hunters in YOUR woods(though IF you really own them you CAN avoid that problem) and chasing YOUR game(sorry it belongs to ALL, not only you)

YOU say and claim you don't mind sharing, BUT ONLY on YOUR terms(you define what IS a bowhunter, etc.etc.etc.) YOU certainly have a high opinion of yourself! To think that only YOU should be able to say what is "real" and what is artificial!!! 

Well, you're certainly entitled to that very narrow view of whom you choose to call brother and sister "bow hunters", I don't agree, and likely NEVER will, agan that "thing" on the end of a crossBOW with the string .....IS THE BOW, anyone can easily see that, so let's "recap"

It has a bow on it(thus it IS a bow), it's used for hunting, so when used to hunt one HAS TO BE BOWHUNTING! You're correct, it is easy to understand!!:darkbeer:


----------



## aceoky

Marvin said:


> so you are saying you 100 % fully support their screwy math......Typical form your side....what fits the agenda....Put the blinders on and don't question it....Oh wait thats the Big tent theory in a nutjob...I mena nut shell...



Again, IF you have a problem or question take it up with Cornell, They did the survey and posted the results....not me, so, attack them if you please, you can leave me out of that part, as I don't work for Cornell, and thus it's not my problem IF you don't agree, with any of it, however, based upon their reputation AND for whom they conduct many surveys for, etc.etc. 

You'd be better served attacking someone else IMHO, I seriously doubt you'll get very far attacking Cornell, but "have at it", if you so choose.....

I'll add one thing on the "screwy math" though, the figures you're using are THE MINOIRTY of those who were surveyed, maybe you should realize it doesn't matter, since they are far outnumbered, by other hunters and landowners, IOW majoirty rules, "math" aside, just a feeble attempt to try to change the REAL focus of what the survey IS about to things that are not even relevent!


----------



## Marvin

*Accident Update*

All i could find at the present time. I will keep looking
publication 203

accidents 2003 CBow - 1 Verts - 0 
2004 Cbow - 1 Verts - 0
2005 Cbow - 0 Verts - 0 

looks like your 200 percent more likely to be injured from a crossbow than a verticle ...I am looking for more data.


----------



## doctariAFC

Marvin said:


> No problem. We went through this in the Crossbow forum. The accident rate for the crossbow is higher than the others archery tackle. Plus i hunt in OHIO....I see them every day.....Got two in my family not that it means much but experience counts for something.


Yes, but, the accidents. What did these accidents entail? Did someone shoot someone else? Or, was it slip and fall and shoot themselves? Was it falling out of treestands? WHat??

Accidents are a safety issue, not a crossbow issue. Accidents happen, and this goes to careless hunters - see Dick Cheney.

I see pretty rude hunters, too, here in NYS. And, believe it or not, most of them are bowhunters. I can count on one hand the number of rude gun hunters I have run into in the woods, but I hunt some pretty remote places. Archery hunting, on the other hand, I have been hunting the 1st week of November in Allegany State Park since the mid 1980's. Without exception EVERY YEAR at least one morning or one afternoon gets interrupted by yaya archers. Lallygagging through the woods, talking, smoking, just being plain rude. Is this an issue of meathead hunters? Or is this a product of the type of compound bow they carry?

Now, to illustrate the absurd by being absurd.....

Golf has been ruined by big bertha drivers, perfectly balanced, high-tech irons and golf balls that travel longer and straighter. Everyone I have encountered on a golf course that has this type of equipment are rude and obnoxious, and they spoil my round of golf all the time. I use wooden woods and a set of MacGregor Golden Bear Irons, circa 1970. I think all these big berthas and Ping Eyes irons and Tour Flight TOP FLIGHT golf balls ought to be abnned because I have lost so much from the experience of golf due to these unfair, unsporting, and ought to be illegal golf clubs and balls! WHat happened to the traditional? WHat these pukes are doing isn't golf, and these new clubs only bring out the rude people, and its these new clubs' fault.

Sound familiar?


----------



## Marvin

doctariAFC said:


> Yes, but, the accidents. What did these accidents entail? Did someone shoot someone else? Or, was it slip and fall and shoot themselves? Was it falling out of treestands? WHat??
> 
> Accidents are a safety issue, not a crossbow issue. Accidents happen, and this goes to careless hunters - see Dick Cheney.
> 
> I see pretty rude hunters, too, here in NYS. And, believe it or not, most of them are bowhunters. I can count on one hand the number of rude gun hunters I have run into in the woods, but I hunt some pretty remote places. Archery hunting, on the other hand, I have been hunting the 1st week of November in Allegany State Park since the mid 1980's. Without exception EVERY YEAR at least one morning or one afternoon gets interrupted by yaya archers. Lallygagging through the woods, talking, smoking, just being plain rude. Is this an issue of meathead hunters? Or is this a product of the type of compound bow they carry?
> 
> Now, to illustrate the absurd by being absurd.....
> 
> Golf has been ruined by big bertha drivers, perfectly balanced, high-tech irons and golf balls that travel longer and straighter. Everyone I have encountered on a golf course that has this type of equipment are rude and obnoxious, and they spoil my round of golf all the time. I use wooden woods and a set of MacGregor Golden Bear Irons, circa 1970. I think all these big berthas and Ping Eyes irons and Tour Flight TOP FLIGHT golf balls ought to be abnned because I have lost so much from the experience of golf due to these unfair, unsporting, and ought to be illegal golf clubs and balls! WHat happened to the traditional? WHat these pukes are doing isn't golf, and these new clubs only bring out the rude people, and its these new clubs' fault.
> 
> Sound familiar?



Doc I did look for teh cuase and they only say what happened on the fatal's. so I cannot give any further details. Looks like they have only been keeping track since 2003...do i beleive it? no, but that all they got on the web. Its not the crossbow but the user. I hit my 15 year old titleist metals better than my much newer pings doc.


----------



## aceoky

Free Range said:


> You shouldn’t be, just consider who it’s coming from.
> 
> So sorry "your highness" I didn't realize I was in the company of Royalty!
> 
> 
> And as far as I know there isn’t any states that limit traditional weapons. There are some areas, in some states that only allow traditional bows to be allowed on that property, one that comes to mind is McCallister ammunition depot in Oklahoma, no compounds, and no x-bows.



BTW shouldn't you be proving me wrong on the UK ??


----------



## Marvin

doctariAFC said:


> Yes, but, the accidents. What did these accidents entail? Did someone shoot someone else? Or, was it slip and fall and shoot themselves? Was it falling out of treestands? WHat??
> 
> Accidents are a safety issue, not a crossbow issue. Accidents happen, and this goes to careless hunters - see Dick Cheney.
> 
> I see pretty rude hunters, too, here in NYS. And, believe it or not, most of them are bowhunters. I can count on one hand the number of rude gun hunters I have run into in the woods, but I hunt some pretty remote places. Archery hunting, on the other hand, I have been hunting the 1st week of November in Allegany State Park since the mid 1980's. Without exception EVERY YEAR at least one morning or one afternoon gets interrupted by yaya archers. Lallygagging through the woods, talking, smoking, just being plain rude. Is this an issue of meathead hunters? Or is this a product of the type of compound bow they carry?
> 
> Now, to illustrate the absurd by being absurd.....
> 
> Golf has been ruined by big bertha drivers, perfectly balanced, high-tech irons and golf balls that travel longer and straighter. Everyone I have encountered on a golf course that has this type of equipment are rude and obnoxious, and they spoil my round of golf all the time. I use wooden woods and a set of MacGregor Golden Bear Irons, circa 1970. I think all these big berthas and Ping Eyes irons and Tour Flight TOP FLIGHT golf balls ought to be abnned because I have lost so much from the experience of golf due to these unfair, unsporting, and ought to be illegal golf clubs and balls! WHat happened to the traditional? WHat these pukes are doing isn't golf, and these new clubs only bring out the rude people, and its these new clubs' fault.
> 
> Sound familiar?



I believe there was an incident in 2004 where a father shot his son with a crossbow in the akron area. I will see what i can dig up.


----------



## Marvin

aceoky said:


> BTW shouldn't you be proving me wrong on the UK ??


Shouldn't you be answering some questions yourself? Should we allow the non hunting public to vote or dicate our hunting regs and rules?


----------



## doctariAFC

Marvin said:


> Doc I did look for teh cuase and they only say what happened on the fatal's. so I cannot give any further details. Looks like they have only been keeping track since 2003...do i beleive it? no, but that all they got on the web. Its not the crossbow but the user. I hit my 15 year old titleist metals better than my much newer pings doc.


That figures, right? NYS keeps track of this stuff fairly well, and they give a recap each year concerning all accidents, not just the shootings and fatalities. This is done to give insight to the hunter safety trainers as to what needs to be focused on, and I am happy to say that NYS continues to be a leader in safe hunting across the USA, despite not having a mandatory blaze orange law. The sportsmen in NYS do some things right, much to the chagrin of the anti's.

But, I think I made my point with the golf analogy. It isn't the clubs, its the golfer and how they learn the etiquette of the game. Ditto for hunters. No matter what implement is chosen, if they are not taught safety and proper hunting etiquette/ respect, then it doesn't really matter what implement is chosen. Fools are fools and the equipment has no bearing whatsoever on how big a fool someone is, right? That's a hunter issue.


----------



## Marvin

doctariAFC said:


> That figures, right? NYS keeps track of this stuff fairly well, and they give a recap each year concerning all accidents, not just the shootings and fatalities. This is done to give insight to the hunter safety trainers as to what needs to be focused on, and I am happy to say that NYS continues to be a leader in safe hunting across the USA, despite not having a mandatory blaze orange law. The sportsmen in NYS do some things right, much to the chagrin of the anti's.
> 
> But, I think I made my point with the golf analogy. It isn't the clubs, its the golfer and how they learn the etiquette of the game. Ditto for hunters. No matter what implement is chosen, if they are not taught safety and proper hunting etiquette/ respect, then it doesn't really matter what implement is chosen. Fools are fools and the equipment has no bearing whatsoever on how big a fool someone is, right? That's a hunter issue.


 Yes but in ohio we can limit their exposure to around two weeks (gun seasons) instead of the entire season. Thats a good thing. Yes it is also statistically proven there are more gun injuries that bow. Doc it is publication 203 from ODNR's website if you wanna look for yourself. Not sure why there is not a detailed report on each incident.


----------



## aceoky

I see ONE crossbow accident in TWO entire hunting seasons.....

Let's compare that to treestand accidents,
And falls down the stairs or in the bathtub,
And auto accident rates, 

....maybe since all the above are FAR greater than crossbow accidents we should work to exclude those activities AND many, many more?? 

We must accept the fact that most things we do involve some risk(and some more than others), it's a fact of life and doen't change that we'll continue to do them .......


----------



## Free Range

> in the USA the MAJORITY NOT MINORITY rules so YES I live in the USA where majority not minorities rule....fwiw)


Really then why is it we have no real immigration reform, why is it KY does not have full x-bow expansion? 



> THAT is ONLY YOUR opinion, please show plenty of facts to prove that, then you can try to "stay up", if you can!


Do you want facts that this is my opinion, or that there are x-bow hunters in the woods? I’m not sure I follow you on this one???



> Yet ONLY those whom YOU decide fit YOUR defenition of "bow hunters" AGAIN that is NOT your decision to get to make!


Again, it is too, or is it you that should tell us what is and isn’t a bow hunter? 



> Well, which is it? MORE OR LESS?????? It can't be both now can it??? Yeah, I'm :"spinning" and your "facts" are "solid" NOT!


Silly rabbit, now it’s you that needs to do some research. The fact is there are less “hunters” in the woods, but at the same time there are more deer hunters, in the woods during bow season, I know it’s a bit complicated, but you can either do some real research or just take my word for it. Kind of like having more then 100%, I think you learned that lesson from me awhile back. 



> AND I suppose you hang out with the VAST MAJORITY of the bowhunters in our Nation, NO you do NOT , I stand by my statement!


No, just the more dedicated ones, do you hang out with the vast majority of slob bowhunters, or is it, that most of the bow hunters you hang out with just happen to be less dedicated? 



> It has a bow on it(thus it IS a bow), it's used for hunting, so when used to hunt one HAS TO BE BOWHUNTING! You're correct, it is easy to understand!!


Cool logic, so if I say it has a stock on it thus it’s a gun, that must make just as much sense



> BTW shouldn't you be proving me wrong on the UK ??


No, there is no need to prove you wrong, and I don’t care to take the time to do the research, this is nothing more then a diversion from the real issue. You can claim victory on this if you wish, it won’t change the fact that no one decided to end bow hunting because they wouldn’t allow the x-bow in.


----------



## doctariAFC

Marvin said:


> Yes but in ohio we can limit their exposure to around two weeks (gun seasons) instead of the entire season. Thats a good thing. Yes it is also statistically proven there are more gun injuries that bow. Doc it is publication 203 from ODNR's website if you wanna look for yourself. Not sure why there is not a detailed report on each incident.


I am familiar with the report. But it does not support the statement that crossbow hunters are all joeys. A joey is a joey, no matter what implement they hunt with, and what season they hunt. That's a hunter issue, not an equipment issue.

Joeys are not removed from the equation through seasons or special implements. Joeys are limited through education, reinforcement and good examples to follow. If you were taught bowhunting by someone who was unsafe, careless and rude, chances are you will fall into that mold as well, right?

Has nothing to do with a crossbow, vertical bow or firearm.


----------



## aceoky

*Free Range*

*why is it KY does not have full x-bow expansion? *

Give it up; I'm not "biting" or "taking the bait", one thing changes the outcome of the whole VERY little....

WE will have, we got much more than our opposition wanted us to gain! The REAL reason IS: the opposition seeing they were beaten ran to the legislature, rather than follow the rules set in place and been there for over 50 years, and by doing so tried to change how ALL game laws would have been done, THEY FAILED, and a "quick compromise" was rushed through in only a couple of hours, without any notice to "our side", NOW you may think this is a "defeat" but in reality, it only proves they got so desperate to do what they did, and it WILL return to bite them in their........ bet on it, so while we (the majority) got "shafted" for this year, we'll see how long that stands! Shall we?

Any way you look at it WE won! They said we'd get NOTHING; crossbows "would be thrown under the bus, and NEVER be brought up again", 

IF you think they were correct, you had best look again, and since we got some expansion, against all their dirty tricks, and backstabbing "secret meetings" , it should be obvious this isn't "over" and in fact has just really begun, much to early for you to continue to "brag" on one little thing, even though it WAS a victory for the "pro crossbow side".....in fact!

*Again, it is too, or is it you that should tell us what is and isn’t a bow hunter? *

Nope neither of us, we'll let the Majority decide, it is after all the American Way!


*Kind of like having more then 100%, I think you learned that lesson from me awhile back. *

Nope; I have never learned anything useful from any of your opinions, don't expect that will change either, but feel free to "live that dream" if it makes you feel better.....

*No, there is no need to prove you wrong, and I don’t care to take the time to do the research, this is nothing more then a diversion from the real issue. You can claim victory on this if you wish,

it won’t change the fact that no one decided to end bow hunting because they wouldn’t allow the x-bow in.*

YES there is; first you said it was 'so far out there" as to not know if LIE would even fit, I challenge you to prove me wrong, or drop it....

THE FACTS WON'T CHANGE, you're correct on that part of it....but that is once again EXACTLY what happened, it's not "Top Secret" information btw, you're only proving when you say something, you think you're always correct often you're not, and again on this you're so far off base, as to not be even on the field!  

The bowhunters ran to the Paliment in the UK to keep out the crossbow, the RESULT of ONLY that action managed to GET ALL BOWHUNTING LABLED CRUEL AND BANNED SINCE THEN ( I believe that was in or around 1963 btw IIRC)

Your disputing it changes nothing, as is usual, when presented with facts you still won't check on them, and refuse to accept them, they are however still facts!!

So yes EXACTLY what was tried in Ky this year IS how England lost bow hunting as a whole, whether YOU like it or not!


----------



## Free Range

> so while we (the majority) got "shafted" for this year, we'll see how long that stands! Shall we?


And I can remember you saying we should put it all behind us and live with what is decided. But now that you didn’t get the whole season, and I must interject here, that although I’m from CO, I called this one long before any compromise was reached. I know, a little back slapping on my part. Anyhow where was I, oh yeah, you didn’t get the whole season, and now it’s they cheated, and we will not stand for this, just wait until next year. Way to bridge the gap there Ace, I see no division on your part, not. 



> Nope neither of us, we'll let the Majority decide, it is after all the American Way!


Great, the Majority of States say they are not bow hunters, so I guess you will concede and we can get rid of the x-bow during bow season in all states? Thanks, now we will never have any thing to argue about again, I will miss you Ace. 



> YES there is; first you said it was 'so far out there" as to not know if LIE would even fit, I challenge you to prove me wrong, or drop it....


I did drop it.


----------



## Marvin

aceoky said:


> I see ONE crossbow accident in TWO entire hunting seasons.....
> 
> Let's compare that to treestand accidents,
> And falls down the stairs or in the bathtub,
> And auto accident rates,
> 
> ....maybe since all the above are FAR greater than crossbow accidents we should work to exclude those activities AND many, many more??
> 
> We must accept the fact that most things we do involve some risk(and some more than others), it's a fact of life and doen't change that we'll continue to do them .......


 uh ace...I hope you are not teaching children to add as I feel they would be shorted...2003 - 1 accident.....2004 - 1 accident ...Thats 1 + 1 = ? I will let you figure that part out. Were tired of holding your hand. I will let you use a calculator... genius....Again I will ask do you feel we should allow the non hunting public to have a say in the rules and regs for hunting?


----------



## Marvin

doctariAFC said:


> I am familiar with the report. But it does not support the statement that crossbow hunters are all joeys. A joey is a joey, no matter what implement they hunt with, and what season they hunt. That's a hunter issue, not an equipment issue.
> 
> Joeys are not removed from the equation through seasons or special implements. Joeys are limited through education, reinforcement and good examples to follow. If you were taught bowhunting by someone who was unsafe, careless and rude, chances are you will fall into that mold as well, right?
> 
> Has nothing to do with a crossbow, vertical bow or firearm.


 I call BS Doc. Thats a load and you know it. You don't spread the morons out. Diluting the problem does not help. So should we be requiring mandatory testing to secure hunting licenses? If you limit their time you limit their damage. If they are astute enough to take the time to shoot a compound and become proficient with it, we could weed a lot of these problems out. Why is it that the Cbow manufactures have to put a disclaimer on their weapons that say they are a short range weapon? Shouldn't they know that? The state of ohio even does it in their information handout.....


----------



## aceoky

Marvin said:


> uh ace...I hope you are not teaching children to add as I feel they would be shorted...2003 - 1 accident.....2004 - 1 accident ...Thats 1 + 1 = ? I will let you figure that part out. Were tired of holding your hand. I will let you use a calculator... genius....Again I will ask do you feel we should allow the non hunting public to have a say in the rules and regs for hunting?


My mistake, I didn't notice that I left the EACH out(ONE accident EACH of two years) feel better now? 

IOW ONE PER YEAR ......wow, I'm glad YOU don't ever make mistakes, and every detail YOU post is 100% accurate , correct , and perfect (YOU wish)...... 

IF you ever expect any answers to any questions you're asking me, first you'll need TO PROVE where I'm getting this "money from the UCBK" as you stated as a fact, unless you do that, then I have no reason to care what else you ask.......you made an accusation, without any facts to back it up, as usual, this time, though, prove it .....IF you can.....


----------



## Marvin

aceoky said:


> My mistake, I didn't notice that I left the EACH out(ONE accident EACH of two years) feel better now?
> 
> IOW ONE PER YEAR ......wow, I'm glad YOU don't ever make mistakes, and every detail YOU post is 100% accurate , correct , and perfect (YOU wish)......
> 
> IF you ever expect any answers to any questions you're asking me, first you'll need TO PROVE where I'm getting this "money from the UCBK" as you stated as a fact, unless you do that, then I have no reason to care what else you ask.......you made an accusation, without any facts to back it up, as usual, this time, though, prove it .....IF you can.....


Show your receipt......that simple. Financial statements would work also. Hope Cornell did not do those for you too.:tongue:


----------



## aceoky

Free Range said:


> And I can remember you saying we should put it all behind us and live with what is decided. But now that you didn’t get the whole season, and I must interject here, that although I’m from CO, I called this one long before any compromise was reached. I know, a little back slapping on my part. Anyhow where was I, oh yeah, you didn’t get the whole season, and now it’s they cheated, and we will not stand for this, just wait until next year. Way to bridge the gap there Ace, I see no division on your part, not.
> 
> There is no NOW, I have always said they cheated, YOU keep bringing up the FACT WE WERE NOT THERE FOR THE COMPROMISE......YOU need to pick a story and stick with it, IF we weren't there as you are aware and love to bring up so often, then any fool can see it wasn't "fair" to leave out ONE side of the issue, I have NO doubt had WE done the exact same thing without the "bow hunters groups present YOU would be crying a river yourself"........
> 
> Also, I have NO desire any longer to bridge the gap with backstabbing, cheating people who worked agianst their own majoirty of people and in fact according to their own membership against them and their votes!!!
> 
> That is NOT division, it's inclusion, means some will have to share just as they had to learn when they were young and didn't know any better, as grown people they should already know this
> 
> 
> 
> Great, the *Majority of States say they are not bow hunters*, so I guess you will concede and we can get rid of the x-bow during bow season in all states? Thanks, now we will never have any thing to argue about again, I will miss you Ace.
> 
> NO, the MAJORITY OF EACH STATE should decide THEMSELVES.......PROVE the "majoirty of states ever state they are NOT bowhunters......even IF you manage that, bet you won't be able to do it in five short years, again things are changing, and it's FOR the crossbow not against it, regardless of your "spin"
> 
> PA added them to the legal list for turkey, THAT should spell it out for you, you're on the losing side of this issue, but that's your right and your choice, whatever you may wish, MOST hunters say the crossbow IS archery
> 
> I have proven what the MAJORITY OF hunters AND landowners IN MY state say, and desire, and I'm going to do whatever it takes to make that happen, even IF you don't like it or approve, so miss me if you say so...
> 
> Why would I concede? I have ALL the facts on my side, at best you have only unfounded opinions and allegations of $$ and conspiracy, and of "loss" which you can't even prove, NO I won't concede, especially since I've proven what the majority in MY state support, FULL EXPANSION,
> 
> 
> 
> I did drop it.


NOT hardly! You made mention that it still wasn't a fact, don't make me repost it.......You are 100% wrong in saying it didn't happen, and in calling me on it, if you wish to "drop it", fine by me, so long as you KNOW the truth....:darkbeer:


----------



## aceoky

*Burden of proof is fully upon you.....*



Marvin said:


> Show your receipt......that simple. Financial statements would work also. Hope Cornell did not do those for you too.:tongue:


NO first *I* didn't make the claim, you did, thus I have nothing to prove, you do however, you made the accusation, NOW back it up, if you can't; admit it....

As usual, YOU and a few others question others on EVERYTHING, but can't back up anything you claim to "know"......typical and sad.. 

What receipt would I show? The one that states $0???

BTW, I won't disucss PRIVATE CLUB business with YOU or anyone, and especially on a public forum, I honestly don't care if you like it or not; it's none of your business, how many members we have, or any of the other questions you've asked about the UCBK; MUCH less any financial statements you have lost your mind IF you think that is ever gonna happen!


----------



## Free Range

> then any fool can see it wasn't "fair" to leave out ONE side of the issue,


The DNR was there and after all you said they wanted full expansion, so I see them as being the other side. The only ones that were not there is you and your little x-bow club you started to cause division. 



> NO, the MAJORITY OF EACH STATE should decide THEMSELVES.......


So now it’s the majority within each state, and not in the USA, as you said before, so next it will be the majority in each county if that works in your favor??? 



> have proven what the MAJORITY OF hunters AND landowners



Have to throw in land owners? How about an answer to Marvin’s question? 



> BTW, I won't disucss PRIVATE CLUB business with YOU or anyone, and especially on a public forum, I honestly don't care if you like it or not; it's none of your business, how many members we have, or any of the other questions you've asked about the UCBK; MUCH less any financial statements you have lost your mind IF you think that is ever gonna happen!


How about posting the names and location of the first twenty members? After all shouldn’t they be given the credit they deserve?


----------



## oldbhtrnewequip

aceoky said:


> *I* don't think that hunting should be a competitive sport;I think it involves many factors but imho competition isn't good for us, and gives non-hunters(not just anti hunters) a reason to "dislike" what we do, most non hunters are fine with meat hunting, but oppose antler hunting for example(yes the stats do exist btw)
> QUOTE]
> 
> Whether you think it should be competitive or not...it IS a competitive sport.
> Not acknowledging that makes it seem like we've got something to hide.
> I'm not saying that we have to crow about it to hunters or non hunters either. I don't even talk to the anti's about it because I'm not much of one for fighting over an issue where no one is going to change their mind.
> We should be good sports.
> 
> 
> 
> aceoky said:
> 
> 
> 
> Most people can relate with the desire to put fresh meat on the table, many though don't understand the big rack, mentality, and again only my opinion(but based mostly on those figures) and feel the "competition" for big racks, is a "bad thing" in and of itself....
> QUOTE]
> 
> Providing and putting fresh meat on the table can be competitive, and often is between friends. For some people it is subsistence, and a little more important than friendly competition. Its not true for everyone, and just because putting venison on the table is an objective vs. requirement, it doesn't mean that there is no competitive aspect to it.
> 
> There's a self competitive aspect for almost everyone....think "personal best."
> 
> Many hunters, much less most non hunters, don't 'get' the big horns competition. That's a whole other kettle of fish that leaves many scratching their heads. I don't know how many times I've heard expressions to the effect of "can't eat them horns." Most non-hunters think the competition for big racks is in a word "silly." They don't understand the 'competition.' Obviously big game trophy hunters will choose to disagree. Why? because it says something about our ability to hunt and outfox the older educated, elusive, and wary whitetail. Having said that, I've yet to meet any hunter that would say "I wish these massive 10 and 12 pointers would quit walking by so I can find me a nice 1 1/2 year old doe."
> 
> I've met many a hunter that have passed on 6 pointers when we 'know' of 10's and 12's in the area. Eights....they're tougher for most to pass on.
> 
> How often do we read about the desire/respect for perfect scores in the shoot offs on this forum? Why should/is hunting any different? I haven't heard yet, in this thread, how it is that we compare and contrast competition in hunting with competition in target archery.
> 
> Why is it that 'we' don't want to talk about it?
> 
> 
> 
> aceoky said:
> 
> 
> 
> Having said, that; *I* don't have anything against any "trophy hunters", but when some try to get everyone else to let buck < 3 1/2 years old "walk", many get upset, it's their hunt, and some just don't care about racks, and are more interested in the whole hunt, not only the racks, and there is plenty of room for both imho....
> 
> 
> 
> I've got absolutely nothing against trophy hunters. I think its great and practice it myself....but I put venison in the freezer if I need some and no big bucks are walking my haunts. I leave the little ones alone because its 1/2 a chance its a button buck.
> 
> There are a ton of folks saying that there are NOT enough big racked/bodied bucks walking around and that it is having a detrimental impact on their hunting. Its like why bother? I can see and understand that point of view for folks that only take bucks. Its a choice.
> 
> Nature is all about competition.
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...


----------



## thesource

oldbhtrnewequip said:


> cheating who?





oldbhtrnewequip said:


> Even the most casual observer might suggest that you have a pretty competitive attitude that is laced with sports analogies. Do you talk the same way to non bow hunters prior to them coming to the conclusion that crossbow hunters 'cheat?"
> 
> Do you consider this a sport where competition exists between hunters?


Sorry, it takes a while to wade through the flotsam and find posts that have been directed towards me (and there is that little thing called work that can be bothersome and interfere with life's important issues...)

To the first... I think its obvious that nonhunters (my neighbors, anyway) feel that crossbows in bow season are cheating the deer. That means violating their idea of fair chase, although they may not be familiar to the concept.

Bowhunters are busy doing what bowhunters do during bowseason, trying to outwit whitetails on their own terms. Along comes those who want crossbows to make it easier to defeat the deer's defenses...and they consider that to be cheating.



To the second ...I apologize if my sports analogies offend you. It is unintentional, I assure you. Organized sports have ben a significant part of my life, from playing to coaching to watching. The verbage carries over...

I think competition can and does occur in hunting. Whether it is about the score of the antlers, the number of deer per season, or beating the next guy to your favorite stand, competition exists in hunting.

Personally, I could care less about score and even less about the number of deer per season. But I do tire of finding some yahoo in my stand because they tracked my boot trail in the snow to my favorite spot.


----------



## aceoky

Free Range *"The DNR was there and after all you said they wanted full expansion, so I see them as being the other side. The only ones that were not there is you and your little x-bow club you started to cause division. "*

As is all too common you are speaking WAY out of school here, so let me explain how very incorrect you indeed are in fact:

First Ky has NO DNR......

Secondly, Yes Dr. Jon Gassett(the KDFWR Commisioner) was there, but was under an enormous amount of pressure to achieve SOME kind of compromise NOW (meaning right away, TODAY) OR some other bills he needed passed would be "tabled"(and NO that is NOT speculation on my part fwiw)...

Also the KDFWR were not "for it", per se`, they were "supporting it" based upon the TWO surveys, stating that IS what the majority of Ky hunters and landowners wanted! (IN our state that IS exactly what they're supposed to do; they also studied all of the impacts since before 1997 fyi)...

It's not a "little x-bow" club and *I* didn't start it; I may have had " a hand" in some parts, but I didn't start anything, and the "to cause division" remark WAS not called for and in bad form!!!  


*So now it’s the majority within each state, and not in the USA, as you said before, so next it will be the majority in each county if that works in your favor???* 


NOPE not "now" it always was, I said "majority" YOU decided what I meant by that, without first asking, I made it clear, so you again decide what I meant???? You certainly think very highly of yourself, ......



*Have to throw in land owners?*

NOPE didn't "have to" the Dept. figured it was only fair, since 90% of KY hunting takes place on PRIVATE LAND, thus those who's land would be hunted should have a say....( I wonder why I know that and you didn't) 

SEE that IS how it "is" here in Ky, so it makes perfect sense to ask the opinions of those who ARE involved!

One more time; I will NOT post *private* club business for any of you, keep liiving in your "dream worlds" if you choose, it's unethical in my view for anyone to even ask such private matters, feel free to believe whatever you wish, we've(again) already proven that no where near a majority of our membership was Canadian OR Non -Resident and AGAIN it doesn't matter anyway, since MOST clubs allow and in fact work for more members and take them as they can get them, regardless of residency....

WE however have a HUGE majority of OUR membership being KY hunters period, don't believe it? I don't care in the least! 

I however AM in a position to KNOW, none of you are, so I think most will believe those who KNOW over those who accuse without any facts; as I said, IF you can prove othewise, be my guest, enjoy doing all the work, and research for nothing, YOU can't do it, because what I've said is true!

But please don't let the truth stop you from trying, please be careful that the information is true and accurate, .....:cocktail:


----------



## doctariAFC

Marvin said:


> I call BS Doc. Thats a load and you know it. You don't spread the morons out. Diluting the problem does not help. So should we be requiring mandatory testing to secure hunting licenses? If you limit their time you limit their damage. If they are astute enough to take the time to shoot a compound and become proficient with it, we could weed a lot of these problems out. Why is it that the Cbow manufactures have to put a disclaimer on their weapons that say they are a short range weapon? Shouldn't they know that? The state of ohio even does it in their information handout.....


How is that a load? We are talking about hunter issus, not imlement or season issues. Regarding long range and short range shots, we've been down this road before, too. I know a few compound archers who brag about bagging a deer at 50+ yards. Is that "ethical"? Well, if that hunter was capable, then it is ethical. Let's also remember that Howard Hill downed a bull elk with a long bow from 187 yards. So, again, we can find instances all over the place of hunters shooting "beyond what others would consider ethical", right? Again, this one is up to the hunter, and how confident he or she is in their abilities with whatever implement they are using. My 54 cal ML is deadly out beyond 200 yards. That doesn't mean I'm going to take a 200 yard shot, because, in the field, I have little confidence I'll hit the broadside of a barn at 200 yards, despite being pretty "decent" at the range, if 6 inch groups are decent.

Ditto with a compound or a recurve or a crossbow. The responsible hunter learns and undrstands their implement of choice, and gains proficiency at specific ranges with it. With my bow, I am outstanding at 20 yards, and pretty darned good at 30 yards. That is at the range. In the field, I have some doubts about my shooting beyond 25 yards, probably moreso on account of my range judgement isn't the best in the woods, and getting beyond 20 yards, I know I usually have a +/- 5 yard difference between my estimate and what the range really is. Again, at 30, yes, I can nail the center dot, but in the field, when I have this known wiggle room for error, no way. But that is me. I know my abilities and my limits.

This all is univeral to every implement a hunter chooses to hunt with, be it a bow of whatever style, firearm of whatever style, calibur, gauge. Practice is important regardless. Some say the "ease" of mastery is an issue. My own opinion, and this isn't fact, but my opinion is that mastery of an implement has much to do with practice, but the intangible natural ability also plays a role. I took to a recurve like a fish to water. I start shooting at age 8 or 9, starting with the plastic boy scout special, and at 10 yards, in a matter of an hour of shooting, with the help of a relatively experienced archer, I was consistently putting arrows in the bullseye. I went to a compound bow when I took up archery hunting at age 16. I'll tell ya what, using the compound bow, and becoming reliant upon the sites, screwed up the natural no sight shooting ability that I once had. But, since I hunt with a compound bow, that's a fair trade (although I am seriously considering a return to the recurve, as it gives a faster shot on the ground than the compound bow.)

Now, the yayas we all worry about do not concern themselves with any of this. Practice, proficiency, dedication to their craft, and I do know some joey archers as well as joey gun hunters. By sheer numbers, yes, I agree, more joeys exist with firearms than with bows. But, on a proportional basis, or % basis, I would guess this is about the same. Many joeys will pick up a bow to hunt the archery season, and give it up, not because of the demands it takes to become a decent archer, but due to frustration in getting game in range to shoot, without getting busted (in a tree or on the ground). I recall when I was younger, in my early 20's, when I picked up the firearm and added that season to my opportunities (yes, I started deer hunting with a bow), I would always think in the back of my mind during archery season, boy, if I had my 12 gauge, I could have filled every hunter's tag at camp. But the experience of archery hunting, in the quiet, with undisturbed, unspooked deer still in their natural patterns, versus, run for your life mode, was the ultimate appeal. You come to terms with far lower harvest chances with a bow, and this doesn't magically change when you use a recurve from self bow, to compound bow, or you pick up the crossbow. You still have proximity to contend with. You still have abilities to be confident in. You still need to employ skill as a hunter. Joey goes back to the gun, and stays with the gun. They may pick up a crossbow, but will soon find out that despite a "perceived advantage", the rules that apply to compounds and recurves also apply to the crossbow, with some differences, both positive and detrimental in the field.

That is my take on the entire issue. I know quite a few folks i the WNY area. I have been fortunate enough to meet and work with some of the top hunters and anglers in NYS. I also know a few joeys, too. The joey syndrome isn't related to the implement, it is the hunter. But joey doesn't stick around long if he or she isn't shooting at game, and that's the nice part. They have very little staying power. But some want to get better, and are willing to learn. These aren't joeys, these are the newbies (even though they may have spent 10 years in the woods) that need some mentoring from good hunters. 

This entire crossbow debate, or traditional archery vs compound debate, from the outsider looking in, does not serve to endear them to the sport or season or implement. Quite the opposite. After the head stops spinning, the arguments give the appearance of elitism. It also makes it very difficult for the "hunter" who wants to learn to actually approach us. Its a catch 22. Just look at the Bowhunting showcase and check out the Matthews vs Hoyt vs Oneida, vs all others out there. Clicky to say the least. Its like fly anglers vs bait anglers and the cliques that exist there. Or bass anglers v trout anglers. Clique central. We all have good intentions, bar none. We alll have a concern to make certain the sport and the game are around for generations to come. NO doubt about it.

BUT. We also tend to let our own sense of righteousness get the better of us. And that makes us, more than anything else, our own worst enemies.


----------



## Free Range

> "The Hunting Regulations in the UK date from the 1956 Game act prohibiting the use of spear or any projectile with a velocity of less than 1100 ft/sec and a diameter of less than 0.24" this effectively rules out bows and a lot of fire arms calibres that were used for deer hunting before the implementation of the act, this act was to stop the poaching of deer with the bow, as it effectively doubled the offence,there were guys around who could take a deer, but they then faced the extra offence of using an illegal device, a man in Northumberland became the first man ,in 1959 to be charged under the the act."


And still looking


----------



## thesource

doctariAFC said:


> With my bow, I am outstanding at 20 yards, and pretty darned good at 30 yards. That is at the range. In the field, I have some doubts about my shooting beyond 25 yards.


Yup - EXACTLY like the majority of bowhunters that I know.

But why, then, do you consider the crossbow with its 40+ yd range similar (some even say identical?)


----------



## thesource

doctariAFC said:


> Now, the yayas we all worry about do not concern themselves with any of this. Practice, proficiency, dedication to their craft, and I do know some joey archers as well as joey gun hunters. By sheer numbers, yes, I agree, more joeys exist with firearms than with bows. But, on a proportional basis, or % basis, I would guess this is about the same.


I disagree. Here's why:



doctariAFC said:


> Many joeys will pick up a bow to hunt the archery season, and give it up, not because of the demands it takes to become a decent archer, but due to frustration in getting game in range to shoot, without getting busted (in a tree or on the ground).


That's why there are fewer yahoos in bowseason - the bow is a filter that separates the patient and dedicated from the yahoos. Now, ironically, you would like to remove the filter and allow the yahoos.....



doctariAFC said:


> But the experience of archery hunting, in the quiet, with undisturbed, unspooked deer still in their natural patterns, versus, run for your life mode, was the ultimate appeal. You come to terms with far lower harvest chances with a bow, and this doesn't magically change when you use a recurve from self bow, to compound bow.......


Here you characterize the essence of what bowhunters cherish about bowseason...



doctariAFC said:


> or you pick up the crossbow.


and here you switch to your partisan politicking. Its NOT the same, and the addition puts the former in jeopardy. NOW you allow a host of "joeys" to enter that would have otherwise been filtered, NOW you pollute what was pure.





doctariAFC said:


> This entire crossbow debate, or traditional archery vs compound debate, from the outsider looking in, does not serve to endear them to the sport or season or implement. Quite the opposite. After the head stops spinning, the arguments give the appearance of elitism. It also makes it very difficult for the "hunter" who wants to learn to actually approach us. Its a catch 22. Just look at the Bowhunting showcase and check out the Matthews vs Hoyt vs Oneida, vs all others out there. Clicky to say the least. Its like fly anglers vs bait anglers and the cliques that exist there. Or bass anglers v trout anglers. Clique central. We all have good intentions, bar none. We alll have a concern to make certain the sport and the game are around for generations to come. NO doubt about it.
> 
> BUT. We also tend to let our own sense of righteousness get the better of us. And that makes us, more than anything else, our own worst enemies.


Perhaps you are right, but it matters not. You have defined your personal dividing line. Others will define theirs. You are not necessarily correct .... let the chips fall where they may.


----------



## doctariAFC

I am comfortable with that. 

However, how do you possibly say that the crossbow is a 40 yard implement? This comes down to the abilities of the archer, not the nature of the implement. A shotgun is a 40 yard implement, too, in the hands of someone who practices at 40 yards.

I guess, by the standards that Howard Hill set, the long bow is a 187 yard implement?

No, I would lean more towards hunter issue, not an implement issue.

And then you have hunter satisfaction. That keeps hunters in the woods, right? I mean, we've had enough back and forths concerning the deer herds and not seeing deer. I've heard many hunters state this is a huge problem in WNY, and, although the herd health itself seems fine, according the the DEC - take that for what its worth - we have more than enough deer to go around. This applies through all seasons, and the declines, in terms of the largest numbers, not %, is happening with firearms hunters, and these may be mainly JOEYS. We also have older hunters leaving and a very shabby recruitment, so that's another kettle of fish.

However, what does any of this have to do with the crossbow? We have had decades of hunters fighting hunters over every change that has ever been proposed, and without exception, when it deals with implements/ advances, the same arguments get trotted out, and time and again, the arguments prove meritless.

I am at a loss. Let the chips fall where they may? Sure, but then ask the question, and voice no opinions for or against. The squabbling is killing us as hunters. And we have biggr fish to fry with the anti's to afford perpetuating in-fighting based on personal opinion and utter stubborness, on both sides of the issue.

A compromise is certainly attainable, but both sides have to give a little to get a lot. Is this in the cards? If both sides can stay professional, and back up positions with compelling facts, not argumentative attitudes, we would be far ahead of the game, and better equipped to fight the real enemies, the anti-hunting, anti-fishing, wacko left wing ARAs!

I hold out little hope with the continual back and forths in this forum. I hold out more hope during Federations Meetings, but Erie is only one county of 54 (although its one of the largest). 

But, one thing that does bring some encouragement is the participation we have here, although it seems to be the same group, with very few others making statements and becoming part of the discussion. That, too, speaks volumes. Even at the club member levels, not many get involved writing letters. Its like we believe "someone else will do it". We spoke about this last week at the April Federation Meeting, concerning trying to get a dove hunting season in NYS. The most popular game bird hunt in America. 41 states have a dove season. Perfect way to introduce the youth to hunting. 10 years ago a bill was introduced to EnCon committee, and when the comment period/ public meeting happened, a whopping 10 sportsmen showed up. No letters of support, no involvement from the clubs, nothing. Even for the latest round of fishing regulations changes, Source, we had a comment period from Dec 28 - Feb 14. We had some vocal folks in meetings, but when it came to writing a freaking letter, a whopping 28 comments on the catch & release section of 18-Mile creek were recorded. One of those was mine. So that's 27 comments. Are you kidding me? :confused3:


----------



## thesource

doctariAFC said:


> I am comfortable with that.
> 
> However, how do you possibly say that the crossbow is a 40 yard implement? This comes down to the abilities of the archer, not the nature of the implement. A shotgun is a 40 yard implement, too, in the hands of someone who practices at 40 yards.


This is straight from the *pro*-crossbow camp, dude. Willie, JimC, Revival, and other very vocal crossbow proponents use the 40yd limit (I personally believe its farther, but I will agree to their terms in this case) as an effective range for crossbows.

If you have a beef with that, I expect you can take it up with them.

The way I see it, the 15 yard difference between 25 and 40 yards is a very big difference, indeed.


----------



## aceoky

Free Range said:


> And still looking


Tell you what, I'll even give you a "hint" :wink: 

The Wildlife and Countryside Act of 1963 excluded bows and crossbows from its list of permitted hunting weapons. 

Notice they're "excluded" at the "same time" by the same act.......or you can continue to search and look but rest assured it's a fact!:cocktail:


----------



## doctariAFC

thesource said:


> This is straight from the *pro*-crossbow camp, dude. Willie, JimC, Revival, and other very vocal crossbow proponents use the 40yd limit (I personally believe its farther, but I will agree to their terms in this case) as an effective range for crossbows.
> 
> If you have a beef with that, I expect you can take it up with them.
> 
> The way I see it, the 15 yard difference between 25 and 40 yards is a very big difference, indeed.


I know where you are coming from with the source of the information you are quoting. And, if we use them, you are correct, and I cannot, nor you cannot, argue their expertise.

However, I will always insist that effective range is limited by the ability of the hunter. No implement can aim and shoot itself, at a target or at game. If you're a lousy shot, even with the best equipment, you're still a lousy shot. If you put forth some effort and dedication, regardless of implement, you are a great shot or at least a good shot. I have a friend, his name is Tom. He is a traditional archer. Shoots a 100# or 110# long bow. This guy has arms like tree trunks. I tried to draw this samurai bow of his and almost popped every blood vessel in my head, straining to get to half draw before I did the mia culpa. Tommy drew it back like it was nothing. His talents as an archer are absolutely amazing. Howard Hill taught him. He can dot the i at 60 yards every time, but, in the field, he limits himself to 20-30 yards, even though he has the confidence and ability to go 60, maybe even farther. Put a firearm in his hands and he shoots like a blind man. He knows his limitations and his expertise, and he hunts through regular and extended with his long bow, and he gets some serious monsters, even during the peak of gun season.

The point is, you have to shoot, no matter what implement you choose. His only beef with the crossbow was that guys could stalk the woods with the implement cocked and locked. To be honest, that is the one concern that truly legitimizes the concerns over crossbow in archery, yet this strangely is never mention in any of the arguments brought forth. After all, it is tough to stalk the woods with a vertical bow at full draw!


----------



## retro-grouch

doctariAFC said:


> Bring some facts to the table, and make your point beyond your own opinion. If we're talking "traditional", then all hunting equipment must be made of wood, with cat gut strings. A composite recurve is far from traditional, far less traditional than a primitive wooden crossbow. So, again, you have made an argument that belies a selfish, elitist attitude. Use wooden arrows and primitive broadheads as well. No punch-cutters. This goes for both long-bows/ self bows/ recurves AND wooden crossbows. I would also go the next step. No sights on any implement. No peep sights, no kisser buttons, hell, no nock points, either. No releases, and no mechanical draw aides for crossbows. You want traditional? Let's get traditionl. Then let's see how many hunters actually hunt this time. My guess (and its only a guess) would be very, very few. And if that is the case, I am pretty confident the end result is to benefit elitists, not hunters as a whole.
> 
> Nice try, but you are so far off base, it is hard to tell what stadium you're playing in.


Doc. The topic of this discussion is primitive, not traditional. There is somewhat of a difference. As far as composites go. The Huns and Turks were build composite bows from sheep horn long long ago. Yes, even before the crossbow was around. Do some research.

Your modern crossbow is not primitive. Neither are many of the stickbows hanging in my basement. And certainly not my sons Mathews LX(which is a great shooting machine).

However...as you suggest, the osage selfbows, dogwood arrow shafts, and trade points that are also in my basement, just might fit the bill.

With that said, a true primitive season, would be limited to a very few. Still I am not for a season of this nature.

You can believe what you want to justify your own line of thinking. There was a time when I spent many hours arguing against your weapon before the PA. Game Commission. Then I came to realize that you are no threat to my hunting. You are more than welcome to share a hillside with me. I doubt come gun season, I will see you with that thing in your hands.

Enjoy your weapon brother. There is room for all of us. Just don't tell me you are practicing archery. A cocking lever, scope, stock, trigger and discussions about bench rest accuracy are not archery.


----------



## doctariAFC

retro-grouch said:


> Doc. The topic of this discussion is primitive, not traditional. There is somewhat of a difference. As far as composites go. The Huns and Turks were build composite bows from sheep horn long long ago. Yes, even before the crossbow was around. Do some research.
> 
> Your modern crossbow is not primitive. Neither are many of the stickbows hanging in my basement. And certainly not my sons Mathews LX(which is a great shooting machine).
> 
> However...as you suggest, the osage selfbows, dogwood arrow shafts, and trade points that are also in my basement, just might fit the bill.
> 
> With that said, a true primitive season, would be limited to a very few. Still I am not for a season of this nature.
> 
> You can believe what you want to justify your own line of thinking. There was a time when I spent many hours arguing against your weapon before the PA. Game Commission. Then I came to realize that you are no threat to my hunting. You are more than welcome to share a hillside with me. I doubt come gun season, I will see you with that thing in your hands.
> 
> Enjoy your weapon brother. There is room for all of us. Just don't tell me you are practicing archery. A cocking lever, scope, stock, trigger and discussions about bench rest accuracy are not archery.


I don't use a crossbow. I live in NY. I shoot an Oneida Eagle. Won't give up that bow for anything, although I am starting to consider a recurve very seriously. Its not an attack on you, but the notion of a primitive season, potentially cannibalizing any part of the current archery seasons would not be a good idea. Call it traditional, call it primitive, provided no sights, wooden arrows, etc. and either open it before the start of archery season, adding perhaps two weeks onto the season, and it could make sense. Of course, we would have to determine if this would be worth it, as you said, could be very low participation, and we still have the issue of cost of enforcement to budget for. How does that get paid for, and from where?

But it is an intriguing question.


----------



## Marvin

aceoky said:


> Free Range *"The DNR was there and after all you said they wanted full expansion, so I see them as being the other side. The only ones that were not there is you and your little x-bow club you started to cause division. "*
> 
> As is all too common you are speaking WAY out of school here, so let me explain how very incorrect you indeed are in fact:
> 
> First Ky has NO DNR......
> 
> Secondly, Yes Dr. Jon Gassett(the KDFWR Commisioner) was there, but was under an enormous amount of pressure to achieve SOME kind of compromise NOW ( how the heck do you know. you were not there!(meaning right away, TODAY) OR some other bills he needed passed would be "tabled"(and NO that is NOT speculation on my part fwiw)...
> 
> Also the KDFWR were not "for it", per se`, they were "supporting it" based upon the TWO surveys, stating that IS what the majority of Ky hunters and landowners wanted! (IN our state that IS exactly what they're supposed to do; they also studied all of the impacts since before 1997 fyi)... if they were for it they would have enacted it now wouldn't they
> 
> It's not a "little x-bow" club and *I* didn't start it; I may have had " a hand" in some parts, but I didn't start anything, and the "to cause division" remark WAS not called for and in bad form!!!  BS. take it like a man. you can't sit on one side of the fence and throw stones then complain when they are thrown back. you sound like a whiny democrat
> 
> 
> *So now it’s the majority within each state, and not in the USA, as you said before, so next it will be the majority in each county if that works in your favor???*
> 
> 
> NOPE not "now" it always was, I said "majority" YOU decided what I meant by that, without first asking, I made it clear, so you again decide what I meant???? You certainly think very highly of yourself, ......
> 
> 
> 
> *Have to throw in land owners?*
> 
> NOPE didn't "have to" the Dept. figured it was only fair, since 90% of KY hunting takes place on PRIVATE LAND, thus those who's land would be hunted should have a say....( I wonder why I know that and you didn't)
> 
> SEE that IS how it "is" here in Ky, so it makes perfect sense to ask the opinions of those who ARE involved!
> 
> One more time; I will NOT post *private* club business for any of you, keep liiving in your "dream worlds" if you choose, it's unethical in my view for anyone to even ask such private matters, feel free to believe whatever you wish, we've(again) already proven that no where near a majority of our membership was Canadian OR Non -Resident ( gosh only 12-15 people I am sure they won;t mind of they are so proud. I am not ashamed to say I am a member of the NRA. whats teh hang up? ) and AGAIN it doesn't matter anyway, since MOST clubs allow and in fact work for more members and take them as they can get them, regardless of residency....
> 
> WE however have a HUGE majority of OUR membership being KY hunters period, don't believe it? I don't care in the least!
> 
> I however AM in a position to KNOW, none of you are( thank goodness really), so I think most will believe those who KNOW over those who accuse without any facts; as I said, IF you can prove othewise, be my guest, enjoy doing all the work, and research for nothing, YOU can't do it, because what I've said is (partially) true!
> 
> But please don't let the (half) truth stop you from trying, please be careful that the information is true and accurate, We ask the same....What bow do you shoot anyway?.....:cocktail:


Just for you ace


----------



## Marvin

The last few exchanges are very enlightening for me. I wish i could have been online to participate. Thank you all for that. I have come to my own conclusion on a few issues and I have had a few issues of mine changed. I would have to say that we are all correct in our own little way ( except ace who i doubt shoots a bow at all) i see snipits of info in all of the postings that all make sense are are correct. I for one would like there to be a crossbow season. don't care on the length, placement etc.....Just want the classification changed. That would do me just fine. I have seen too much, experienced too much and lost too much to ever support the weapon as archery equipment. There is not much going to change that. Funny part is, I was a joey once with a crossbow. Didn't like it and can't believe it was me. I see now what I did and if i could undo it, I surely would. I regret very few things but that I do. I do not do our sport any good and i see the same people walking down that fatefull path. i will get out of the confessional box now.....Thanks Doc, freerange, Source and OLDBOWhunter....


----------



## oldbhtrnewequip

*You said:

Well stated, Free Range.

I, too, have seen the extra respect given to bowhunters. I have multiple neighbors who do not hunt. They are not necessarily opposed to hunting, mind you, but they don't do it.

When they see me practicing with my bow in the yard, they inevitably stop to discuss hunting. The bottom line is this: "Well, it seems more fair that you hunt deer with a bow then a gun." When I come home from hunting, they are always interested to see if I "caught" something. (grrrrr)*


No doubt. Extra respect is given to bowhunters. You talk to people about what is going on and they get it. Its not all that difficult to understand.
Gun hunters turn their advantage (distance) into a disadvantage when it comes to comparative 'sport' competition by increasing the distance at which they take game. Bowhunters shorten it. Increasing the distance has no aspect of fairness to the deer, under then, potentially, a clean miss.

They have perspective that deer hunting is more challenging with a bow than it is with a gun. I imagine that their perception of a crossbow fits somewhere in between. You have always been supportive that there be a separate bow season and crossbow season. and a gun season. Just not crossbows in bow season.

*You said
Well stated, Free Range.

...

Since becoming involved with these raging online debates, and the maddening twisted claims of crossbow proponents, I have asked more than a few of these neighbors what they would think of adding crossbows to bowseason.

The answer is ALWAYS the same: "That seems like cheating."

I would have to agree*

So adding crossbows to bow season would be unfair. It'd be cheating.
The antithesis of fair.

*You said 
...

To the first... I think its obvious that nonhunters (my neighbors, anyway) feel that crossbows in bow season are cheating the deer. That means violating their idea of fair chase, although they may not be familiar to the concept.*

So deer can tell the difference between bow season and crossbow season?
Would crossbows in crossbow season be cheating the deer?
Would muzzleloaders in ML season be cheating the deer?
Would firearms in firearm be cheating the deer?

*You said
...
Bowhunters are busy doing what bowhunters do during bowseason, trying to outwit whitetails on their own terms. Along comes those who want crossbows to make it easier to defeat the deer's defenses...and they consider that to be cheating.*

On whose terms? The deer's terms or the bowhunter's terms?
Have you talked to them about knife season and had them give you
an opinion on whether selfbows are cheating compared to knives?
Cheating the deer that is. By hunting during knife seaon when all the deer
clearly know that its knife season, not bow season.
What is their opinion regarding the difference between compound and recurves? Aren't compounds "cheating?"

*You said
...
To the second ...I apologize if my sports analogies offend you. It is unintentional, I assure you. Organized sports have ben a significant part of my life, from playing to coaching to watching. The verbage carries over...*

No offense taken in any way shape or form. I'm a major sports fan myself.
and highly competitive. There is nothing wrong with competiting against, self, nature, or others. It makes us all better. People who use sports analogies are typically highly competitive...even if its against self only. I admire competition between good sports in all of its forms.

*You said
...
I think competition can and does occur in hunting. Whether it is about the score of the antlers, the number of deer per season, or beating the next guy to your favorite stand, competition exists in hunting.

Personally, I could care less about score and even less about the number of deer per season. * 

We agree. I think we also agree that we don't want anyone looking 'down' on what we do as not being ethical _enough _and not being fair chase _enough_. 

BE THAT BETWEEN HUNTER AND DEER OR HUNTER AND HUNTER.

I think we agree that there are varying degrees of difficulty associated with individual methods and practices that we all choose as individuals. I think we agree that those who make it _more_ fair for the deer, should be provided with _more_ time or _better _time (rut). 
to hunt. Unless of course we decide to buy/use tink's in the middle of rut
because that defeats the deer's senses, and would be considered cheating.
Maybe no one should hunt during rut? Should we outlaw tinks? If I _milk_ the does myself is it okay? 

Hence my proposal. Pick something that is extremely basic and go with it as a definition of primitive and establish a season. I don't see it as divisive if viewed in the right light. If we get away from mine/mine/mine and think about the 'sport', amongst all participants it makes sense.

To the non-hunting public too. We need to call it the sport that it is, in all of it's facets, vs. saying it isn't a sport.


----------



## Free Range

> A compromise is certainly attainable, but both sides have to give a little to get a lot. Is this in the cards? If both sides can stay professional, and back up positions with compelling facts, not argumentative attitudes, we would be far ahead of the game, and better equipped to fight the real enemies, the anti-hunting, anti-fishing, wacko left wing ARAs!


Yes a compromise is attainable, and in KY even after it was reached, which side is it crying and promising to push even harder???



> The Wildlife and Countryside Act of 1963 excluded bows and crossbows from its list of permitted hunting weapons.


Cool Ace, and that statement proves what, that they were both excluded at the same time??? 

Next time you start to make a statement as fact, think in the back of your head that Free Range will read it, and if I word it wrong he will be there to show me for the inaccurate poster I am. You said the argument over letting the x-bow in was what caused the banning of bow hunting in the UK. So far I have heard from several people that live in the UK and none of them agree with you on this. I’ still looking however, and will be posting more info later.


----------



## aceoky

Marvin I shoot and older PSE, compound, and in fact have posted a deer or two I've taken with it, on the KY site, so you call BS all you want, once again, more specualtions and accusations without ANY proof! 

BTW, it's not a high let off, it has ONE sight on it(not fiber optic), I don't use expandables, (Bear two blade , there is a picture of the actual arrow and broadhead used with the deer if you care to go and look)... in the deer hunting section at kyhunting.net How's that??:tongue: 

NO I *wasn't* there, but I do KNOW that is what happened, for one reason, SEVERAL legislators told me that IS exactly what occured, plus I have it from a couple other sources who WERE there who let it be KNOWN.......again mere specualtion on your part, and making a point of my not being there proves what? Were YOU there? Then Marvin, just because you weren't there , or involved at all, doesn't mean, that I don't know what has occured; YOU likely don't know this but OUR State Senator IS from my district, not so hard for me to find out "things", since I've known him quite well, for some time.....fwiw

*if they were for it they would have enacted it now wouldn't they*

Again showing everyone what you do NOT know! THEY did enact it, it was submitted and NO appeal was filed, which those of us who actually LIVE here and KNOW, means it was a "done deal",(under the laws that exist, and that should have been "*that*" as it has been for over 50 years; but some people seem to believe the end justifies the means, and to get their own selfish way, they RISKED everything for EVERY HUNTER IN KY to try to do that, they failed in the end....thanks to us!).......

..... so out of pure desperation the oppostition got SB 211 drafted , which among many other very bad things for the hunters of this state would have kept the season EXACTLY as it had been for a very long time, however I won't go into all the negatives of it, since it was "pulled" at the "last minute" and WE got some expansion even after this act of desperation!!(and the results of this action alone will in the end be their "downfall" as far as this issue is concerned, as more KY hunters find out the truth, the more support they are losing on this issue AND every other issue they've backed, I could give several examples, but I digress, that is "off topic", point is: the KDFWR, voted unamimously for full expansion, it was submitted, on Jan 12 @ 11 am. the "opposition" went on a popular radio show FEB 28 2005 (you like math, so you can see that is over a month later fwiw), claiming the Dept. hadn't filed the regs , and thus they'd go into effect without ANY input, or giving the actual legality of them any scrutiny from the LRC (which normally reviews regs and makes certain A: they're legal, B: they were done in a "legal manner", thus, as anyone can clearly see, according to them they got SB 211 drafted to "prevent circumvention of the process" which NEVER occured in the first place! THAT is a "major problem", and I'd suspect and expect MOST hunters to Oppose such actions, especially IF they understand what else SB 211 would have done, and YES we even had some lawyers posting on public forums on the cost of this passing to ALL hunters(that would include bow hunters btw).... IN fact it was equal to using a Nuclear Weapon to kill a rat, it would have killed the rat, yes, but the "fallout" would have long harmed ALL KY HUNTERS......that is their tactics to win, false accusations, bad bill drafted which obviously filing an appeal and fighting it "fair and square" would have been much easier , and much , much less risky, WHY didn't they follow the existing rules, rather than try to re-write them at everyone's expense and risk???

*BS. take it like a man. you can't sit on one side of the fence and throw stones then complain when they are thrown back. you sound like a whiny democrat*

I'll call BS on you on that! I unlike some, don't feel the need to call names, or attack others who's opinion differs from my own! Also, I have PROVEN above EXACTLY what has caused the division in MY state, those who would do any underhanded dirty trick to win and get their way, even unwilling to follow the rules of law established and proven to work for over 5 decades! For those who don't understand how Fish and Game laws are enacted in Ky it may very well be confusing, but it IS a VERY good system, and NEVER been challenged, YET they chose this issue to do just that and attempt to put many things at risk, that is an indisputable fact, those who know how it is, and how SB 211 would have changed it, also know the risks involved, and when lawyers who didn't support full expansion are PUBLICLY FIGHTING this bill, well most will realize what is true, and what is not.....THAT causes the type of divisions that may NEVER heal, so place the blame where it belongs, We , and the UCBK , NEVER went running to the legislators OR participated, in a 100% false radio program accussing the KDFWR of "trying to circumvent the process", well OVER a month after the regs were in fact filed! THEY did all of this and more, so FR IF YOU think that was a "good faith compromise", you live that dream, and saying I won't accept that compromise is 100% true!

Had it been done a year before, (that would be BEFORE we spent the $70,000+ for the survey), I would have supported it 100% said so on several occasions, BUT make NO mistake about it, once the facts were known, (again) and prove what the MAJORITY want, I refuse to bow to a vocal minority in MY state no matter how organized or powerful they think they may be)....also, all that aside, HAD this compromise taken place WITH ALL SIDES PRESENT, and worked on UNITED together, that would also change things in my view, it wasn't and so it isn't over, by a long shot, feel free to call it however you wish, I don't care one bit, and it's NOT your state, doing these "underhanded " things, BUT I'd bet VERY strongly IF it were, and it was YOUR opposition to something YOU cared about doing so, you'd just wish to "get along" and bow right on down! .........NOT

So, while YOU keep on bringing it up I won't accept this "Compromise"(btw HOW is it even called a Compromise when ONLY one side is present and the KDFWR Commisioner has serious pressure applied by the Legislature to pass something NOW??? ) IF that IS *anyone's * idea of "fair play" or "Compromise" then I certainly feel sorry for them, but we'll see IF they still feel that way when they get treated likewise in the future!:darkbeer:


----------



## doctariAFC

Free Range said:


> Yes a compromise is attainable, and in KY even after it was reached, which side is it crying and promising to push even harder???


I know, and you know my position on that one. My catch phrase stupid is as stupid does (apologies to Forrest Gump) applies equally to all sides. I am an EOP, after all 

I believe the compromise reached was a great thing for all hunters. Sure, you have many who are upset on both sides of the fence, but those in the middle seem to be pleased. MOre opportunity, but not a complete wholesale change in the seasons. That to me is about the fairest possible action.

But, you are correct. I, as folks have probably figured out, support the crossbow introduction in NYS as an added choice to get older bowhunters back in the woods, as well as to provide an option for kids and women, and even another implement for us enthusiasts to master and use. Myself, I hunt with a shotgun, rifle, percussion 54 cal Hawken ML, compound bow, and this year I am looking to add a recurve and a single shot 45-70 to my options afield. However, a wholesale inclusion of the crossbow throughout early archery season is something I look upon as dubious, rather, I would support a compromise to allow crossbows inearly archery starting when Fall turkey (or last week of archery, or last two weeks of archery, we can hammer that out.) season opens, running through the regular season and extended. If we should add another week or so on the front end of early archery, I say let's get her done.

After several debates with some anti-crossbow folks, and actually seeing some movement on the issue towards this pretty darned fair compromise, even demanding an additional stamp and requiring archery training and bowhunter stamp as prerequisites, the pro-crossbow elements in NYS lambasted me, saying that isn't good enough, we want it all. I find the position of rejecting compromise about as poor as it gets, as this does nothing to unite hunters and bring an understanding between the "warring parties". I have compiled a solid plan, including demands for measurements and analysis and mandatory review periods. Ideally, if it can be done, the compromise limited crossbow opportunity should begin in 2007, just after the latest USF&W survey is completed and released. There's the benchmark. Set some goals to be attained for adding this special implement, and let's see if we can achieve the goals set (like increased new hunter participation, targeting key demographics as the desires areas of increased growth). 

I am a planner. And I am fairly big on having a goal that benefits, and reaching those goals. Review for 5 years. If warranted, then we can examine a full expansion. If not, leave it alone. Pretty straight-forward. 

But we do have some folks with cement in their heads, and this is definitely on both sides of the issue. Frustrating, to say the least...


----------



## aceoky

Free Range said:


> Yes a compromise is attainable, and in KY even after it was reached, which side is it crying and promising to push even harder??? First , it wasn't a compormise, it was a forced conclusion using "back door politcs" get your facts straight IF you're going to make statements about our state please. Secondly it was as much on HOW things were done as anything else, when things are not done correctly what is accomplished is "lost" there IS some actual proof of "loss" due process was "lost", the LKS president even went against the membership vote AND a board directive, to work on THIS "thing" behind every member(and board member's backs)...There is SO much more you don't know and likely wouldn't understand, not being familiar with how things are LEGALLY done iN KY.....
> 
> 
> Cool Ace, and that statement proves what, that they were both excluded at the same time???
> 
> Next time you start to make a statement as fact, think in the back of your head that Free Range will read it, and if I word it wrong he will be there to show me for the inaccurate poster I am.
> 
> You said the argument over letting the x-bow in was what caused the banning of bow hunting in the UK. So far I have heard from several people that live in the UK and none of them agree with you on this. I’ still looking however, and will be posting more info later.



NO doesn't prove MUCH does it? It WAS A HINT; did you miss that? 

I stand by my statement! That is exactly WHAT happened i.e. a FACT ........YOU don't find it strange that bows and crossbows WERE outlawed at EXACTLY the same time??? Archery is a HUGE part of England's rich history, don't YOU have to question WHY both forms suddenly became OUTLAWED by the SAME Bill, at the SAME EXACT TIME??

As for people in UK NOT knowing, I'm no lawyer but I'm betting I can post a dozen laws most don't know exist, or would be surprised are still on the "books", doesn't prove anything who knows what or what is "what", I'm going to say it again, THAT IS EXACTLY what happened, do you honeslty think I'd give YOU the law, IF I didn't KNOW?? 

THAT is the very reason , why I keep saying, it's better to share a big pie, than to have NONE to share, SOME say it won't happen, the fact is , that IT ALREADY has over there, and it's important to keep in mind OUR system is patterened from their system, so while it may be comforting to some to fail to realize the facts and the history of such tactics, it's important for everyone to know that when hunters go against other hunters, it's highly likely that ONLY hunters will LOSE!

FR, feel free to believe me, not believe to check and research or not to, the FACT is, I have NO reason to make it up ,and YOU KNOW me better than to do so, I wouldn't have said it IF I didn't KNOW it was a fact, at one time I had a copy of the actual prceedings, which are no doubt on one of my many hard drives sitting around here, and who knows, I may "dig some of it up", once I have my gardens in, food plots finished, and a "million" other things more pressing in my mind than this.....I have already read in detail what not sharing has cost hunters in England, whether anyone believes it or not, try to archery hunt in England, see how that goes for you! :cocktail: 

Bottom line, hunters have a simple choice, support one another or again, be it hunters against other hunters, and hunters ALWAYS lose when the latter is the case, ......period


----------



## Free Range

> also, all that aside, HAD this compromise taken place WITH ALL SIDES PRESENT,


Why can’t you just admit this is the real reason you are so upset, you were not asked to the table and now you are going to get even? 



> First , it wasn't a compormise, it was a forced conclusion using "back door politcs" get your facts straight IF


Lets see one side, you , wanted full expansion, and the other wanted no expansion. What was reached was something in between, now I call that compromise. 

If they had your DNR commissioner under the gun why didn’t they force him to stop all expansion? If only one side was present and that side wanted no expansion, and they had so much pressure on the DNR why not stop any expansion? See Ace, I too have people on the inside telling me what went on at the meeting and who was there, even though I’m in CO. Your cries of dirty deals and one sided compromise doesn’t hold water even if I didn’t know what happened, I wouldn’t be buying any of it. 



> not done correctly what is accomplished is "lost" there IS some actual proof of "loss" due process was "lost",


Due process, not correctly? Is it illegal to introduce a bill in your state? You need to go back and take a government class, 8th grade level should do it. It is done every day, when someone wants change they introduce bills, if a change is happening they don’t like they add attachment’s or introduce counter bills. 



> There is SO much more you don't know and likely wouldn't understand, not being familiar with how things are LEGALLY done iN KY.....


Well I guess things in KY might be more like Cuba then the rest of the United States, but I doubt it. And if something was done illegally then why hasn’t anyone been arrested?


----------



## Free Range

> As for people in UK NOT knowing, I'm no lawyer but I'm betting I can post a dozen laws most don't know exist, or would be surprised are still on the "books", doesn't prove anything who knows what or what is "what", I'm going to say it again, THAT IS EXACTLY what happened, do you honeslty think I'd give YOU the law, IF I didn't KNOW??


I see people, Archers and Bowhunters, in the UK don’t know what’s going on in their country, but you know every thing that is going on in KY. Funny how that works, you know more about a foreign country then the people that live there do. And before you try to spin this, I never said you don’t know what’s going on in KY or that I know more about KY then you do, it’s just that you put a very different spin on things then what others tell me is going on there.


----------



## Marvin

aceoky said:


> Marvin I shoot and older PSE, compound, and in fact have posted a deer or two I've taken with it, on the KY site, so you call BS all you want, once again, more specualtions and accusations without ANY proof!
> 
> BTW, it's not a high let off, it has ONE sight on it(not fiber optic), I don't use expandables, (Bear two blade , there is a picture of the actual arrow and broadhead used with the deer if you care to go and look)... in the deer hunting section at kyhunting.net How's that??:tongue:
> 
> NO I *wasn't* there, but I do KNOW that is what happened, for one reason, SEVERAL legislators told me that IS exactly what occured, plus I have it from a couple other sources who WERE there who let it be KNOWN.......again mere specualtion on your part, and making a point of my not being there proves what? Were YOU there? Then Marvin, just because you weren't there , or involved at all, doesn't mean, that I don't know what has occured; YOU likely don't know this but OUR State Senator IS from my district, not so hard for me to find out "things", since I've known him quite well, for some time.....fwiw
> 
> *if they were for it they would have enacted it now wouldn't they*
> 
> Again showing everyone what you do NOT know! THEY did enact it, it was submitted and NO appeal was filed, which those of us who actually LIVE here and KNOW, means it was a "done deal",(under the laws that exist, and that should have been "*that*" as it has been for over 50 years; but some people seem to believe the end justifies the means, and to get their own selfish way, they RISKED everything for EVERY HUNTER IN KY to try to do that, they failed in the end....thanks to us!).......
> 
> ..... so out of pure desperation the oppostition got SB 211 drafted , which among many other very bad things for the hunters of this state would have kept the season EXACTLY as it had been for a very long time, however I won't go into all the negatives of it, since it was "pulled" at the "last minute" and WE got some expansion even after this act of desperation!!(and the results of this action alone will in the end be their "downfall" as far as this issue is concerned, as more KY hunters find out the truth, the more support they are losing on this issue AND every other issue they've backed, I could give several examples, but I digress, that is "off topic", point is: the KDFWR, voted unamimously for full expansion, it was submitted, on Jan 12 @ 11 am. the "opposition" went on a popular radio show FEB 28 2005 (you like math, so you can see that is over a month later fwiw), claiming the Dept. hadn't filed the regs , and thus they'd go into effect without ANY input, or giving the actual legality of them any scrutiny from the LRC (which normally reviews regs and makes certain A: they're legal, B: they were done in a "legal manner", thus, as anyone can clearly see, according to them they got SB 211 drafted to "prevent circumvention of the process" which NEVER occured in the first place! THAT is a "major problem", and I'd suspect and expect MOST hunters to Oppose such actions, especially IF they understand what else SB 211 would have done, and YES we even had some lawyers posting on public forums on the cost of this passing to ALL hunters(that would include bow hunters btw).... IN fact it was equal to using a Nuclear Weapon to kill a rat, it would have killed the rat, yes, but the "fallout" would have long harmed ALL KY HUNTERS......that is their tactics to win, false accusations, bad bill drafted which obviously filing an appeal and fighting it "fair and square" would have been much easier , and much , much less risky, WHY didn't they follow the existing rules, rather than try to re-write them at everyone's expense and risk???
> 
> *BS. take it like a man. you can't sit on one side of the fence and throw stones then complain when they are thrown back. you sound like a whiny democrat*
> 
> I'll call BS on you on that! I unlike some, don't feel the need to call names, or attack others who's opinion differs from my own! Also, I have PROVEN above EXACTLY what has caused the division in MY state, those who would do any underhanded dirty trick to win and get their way, even unwilling to follow the rules of law established and proven to work for over 5 decades! For those who don't understand how Fish and Game laws are enacted in Ky it may very well be confusing, but it IS a VERY good system, and NEVER been challenged, YET they chose this issue to do just that and attempt to put many things at risk, that is an indisputable fact, those who know how it is, and how SB 211 would have changed it, also know the risks involved, and when lawyers who didn't support full expansion are PUBLICLY FIGHTING this bill, well most will realize what is true, and what is not.....THAT causes the type of divisions that may NEVER heal, so place the blame where it belongs, We , and the UCBK , NEVER went running to the legislators OR participated, in a 100% false radio program accussing the KDFWR of "trying to circumvent the process", well OVER a month after the regs were in fact filed! THEY did all of this and more, so FR IF YOU think that was a "good faith compromise", you live that dream, and saying I won't accept that compromise is 100% true!
> 
> Had it been done a year before, (that would be BEFORE we spent the $70,000+ for the survey), I would have supported it 100% said so on several occasions, BUT make NO mistake about it, once the facts were known, (again) and prove what the MAJORITY want, I refuse to bow to a vocal minority in MY state no matter how organized or powerful they think they may be)....also, all that aside, HAD this compromise taken place WITH ALL SIDES PRESENT, and worked on UNITED together, that would also change things in my view, it wasn't and so it isn't over, by a long shot, feel free to call it however you wish, I don't care one bit, and it's NOT your state, doing these "underhanded " things, BUT I'd bet VERY strongly IF it were, and it was YOUR opposition to something YOU cared about doing so, you'd just wish to "get along" and bow right on down! .........NOT
> 
> So, while YOU keep on bringing it up I won't accept this "Compromise"(btw HOW is it even called a Compromise when ONLY one side is present and the KDFWR Commisioner has serious pressure applied by the Legislature to pass something NOW??? ) IF that IS *anyone's * idea of "fair play" or "Compromise" then I certainly feel sorry for them, but we'll see IF they still feel that way when they get treated likewise in the future!:darkbeer:



How did the bill get "pulled" ace? Was it illegal? How did you single handedly beat the evil villans if you were not even at the table? Sounds like you causing quite a divide amoung hunters and we all knwo that telling half truths is nto beneath you as source has already pointed out so it has me a little concerned that you doing more harm than good for your own cause. Word just might get out.....


----------



## aceoky

doctariAFC said:


> I know, and you know my position on that one. My catch phrase stupid is as stupid does (apologies to Forrest Gump) applies equally to all sides. I am an EOP, after all
> 
> I believe the compromise reached was a great thing for all hunters. Sure, you have many who are upset on both sides of the fence, but those in the middle seem to be pleased. MOre opportunity, but not a complete wholesale change in the seasons. That to me is about the fairest possible action.
> 
> 
> After several debates with some anti-crossbow folks, and actually seeing some movement on the issue towards this pretty darned fair compromise, even demanding an additional stamp and requiring archery training and bowhunter stamp as prerequisites, the pro-crossbow elements in NYS lambasted me, saying that isn't good enough, we want it all.
> 
> I find the position of rejecting compromise about as poor as it gets, as this does nothing to unite hunters and bring an understanding between the "warring parties". I have compiled a solid plan, including demands for measurements and analysis and mandatory review periods. Ideally, if it can be done, the compromise limited crossbow opportunity should begin in 2007, just after the latest USF&W survey is completed and released. There's the benchmark. Set some goals to be attained for adding this special implement, and let's see if we can achieve the goals set (like increased new hunter participation, targeting key demographics as the desires areas of increased growth).
> 
> Review for 5 years. If warranted, then we can examine a full expansion. If not, leave it alone. Pretty straight-forward.
> 
> But we do have some folks with cement in their heads, and this is definitely on both sides of the issue. Frustrating, to say the least...


As one who may seem to have "cement" in their heads on the "pro-side" of this issue, the FACTS are not what FR is trying to tell us they are: so since I KNOW the "real deal" let me try to clear up some very bad misconceptions:

We in KY have taken TWO surveys which *prove*
The MAJORITY want FULL EXPANSION (not a compromise of ANY KIND btw).....yet still it WAS the PRO-SIDE who tried in vain to get one rather than fight for the full seasson, and YES I can back that up and prove it easily!

Here IS exactly how this thing went: (please bear with me this will be long as it's a "recap" of over 18 months of work)
ROUND ONE

1. Purpose The Kentucky Department of Fish and Wildlife Resources (KDFWR) has received numerous requests over the past 5 years to extend the crossbow-hunting season.

Additionally, the KDFWR recognizes a need to increase the harvest of whitetail deer in a large percentage of the state. In 2002, the KDFWR conducted a hunter survey that was mailed to 13,500 hunters in Kentucky – “What do you think about the use of crossbows *during archery season?”* 

*Using the data from the survey and with the knowledge that an extended crossbow-hunting season would not have a negative impact on the resource, KDFWR recently proposed an extension of the crossbow-hunting season *for whitetail deer and wild turkeys from the historical framework of a 10-day season to running at the same time as archery season (first Saturday in Sept. through the third Monday in Jan.). 

*A minority of hunters (KDFWR received only 22 written comments in opposition to the season) lobbied legislators to terminate the season. *

The MAIN reason they gave for doing this was "*HOW* it was done", "WE didn't have enough time to act on this, and give OUR side of this", AND the expansion was OVER for this round.....even after over 5 years of the KDFWR studies on this subject!! AND with NO regards of what the majoirty wanted!

THEY also said that "during archery season" was "vague" and they didn't know that meant the whole season!!( it never said anywhere partial, now did it"?)

ROUND TWO:

At this point a CROSSBOW ADVISORY PANEL was set up to WORK TOWARD A COMPROMISE, I won't get into specific names only will say the minority had more seats than the "pro-side" to try to work on a "good faith" and "fair" compromise.......

AT this point to be "fair" and do my best to only report the facts; and being as "impartial" as is possible, I need to state a couple of things here....

This first expansion only passed by a narrow margin in the Dept Commision vote, (one vote, which is all that was needed, but having a narrow margin, we agreed that a compromise was the best result, to be fair to all involved)

Certain members of a "bow group" threatened a Commision member on "working to replace him", and (btw this is all on audio tape), HE then made a mistake, losing his temper and said, get your compromise, next year, we'll push the whole thing down on you, etc.......(he later admited he was angry, but at that point it didn't matter they NOW had a "reason" to fight a compromise, despite his apology for speaking in anger, which he admits he should have never done)

On the Panel, was the man who also has the Radio program I mentioned in the other post who "over and over " again said on his radio show, which bears HIS name, " A compromise is when BOTH parties sit down, and work out something they can both live with(all the while saying he wouldn't support ANY expansion during panel discussions, again WE have this on tape fwiw, and not only hte UCBK, a couple who were involved as *"neutrals*" at the time(they are now "pro" btw because of what they seen and heard during all of this.....)

AFTER MANY MONTHS of the "anti-side" loudly proclaiming we'd (the pro-side) get "NOTHING MORE ADDED, EVER", the Panel was "dropped", "shut down" whatever anyone choosed to say ALL OF OUR EFFORTS TO COMPROMISE were going "nowhere" since they refused to budge on inch!!

*ROUND THREE:*

THE PANEL, being 100% unable to reach ANY type of compromise because those against refuse to try to seriosly work together, to do so, DEMAND another survey and suggest that UK, or EKU or Murry State, do this one.....The KDFWR decided it in their "best interest" to contact an "outside source"(Cornell) so they(the Dept) couldn't be accused of "applying pressure" to a Ky college......

NOW the RMEF, N***, the League of Ky Sportsmen(LKS), and MANY other groups, state and make it thier POLICY, since it's an independent survey done by "outside sources, and with Cornell's reputation) they WOULD SUPPORT THIS SURVEY'S RESULTS 100% for or against full expansion.....

The survey is done, the results are in; and as I've posted here they are not looking good for the oppostion(who believed this survey would prove that the majority didn't want full expansion, the Dept made thier first survey support expansion for some kind of $$ deal, they were WRONG, and at this point had risked it "all" on this assumption)....

AFTER all this, NINE months were given to everyone, to provide feedback, recomend whatever etc(remember last time they said they didn't have time to "organize" and get "member's input" etc, this time they'd not have that to use), THEN the Commision voted again(remember they only needed gain ONE vote, and the expansion is "done" likely for some time).....this vote however is unanimous for expansion! 

IOW they not only did NOT gain the one vote they needed, THEY LOST THE FOUR THEY HAD, simply because of their tactics on trying to FORCE their will upon the majority!!!

So there WAS more than ample time for debate, and voicing of oppostition, but the fact IS they simply did NOT have the support they claime who oppose the idea, thus it passed.....

Ky has NINE districts, each has a commisioner whom THEY can contact on such issues, and those who contacted their commisoner were by a wide majoirty FOR full expansion, they voted as their people asked them to do, as one would expect since our system is well proven to work and be "fair to all" 

ROUND FOUR:

NOW it's passed,(Dec 9 IIRC) the next step is to submit to the LRC, who will check to make certain it is legally worded and "due process" was allowed to occur(and a 9 month period met that and then some), and it becomes the legal season, ALTHOUGH the opposition has the right to appeal and present their case on why it should NOT become law, this option they failed to exercise however, so again, it WILL become law (well, only IF the rules in place for over 5 decades are followed)...

SO at this point we have spent over 7 years, and on one survey $70,000+ for ALL of which PROVE what the majority want, the minority however don't care about any of that ONLY what THEY want, to keep for "themselves".....

WE(the pro-expansion side) have worked for OVER a year trying to reach a compromise, they (the anti-expansion side) refuse to "budge an inch" , and give us ANYTHING!!

NOW they (anti side) RUN to the Legislature and get SB 211 drafted.....a VERY BAD IDEA for ALL KY HUNTERS as some lawyers pointed out, but that is another issue, though important in that is shows, that stopping the expansion was NOT the main reason for this, it was in fact done to PUNISH(or try to ) the KDFWR for not "bowing down to thier power)....period.....

So they then go on Jim Strader's radio show, *Feb 28 2005 *and say that the KDFWR was "Trying to circumvent the entire process, AND this expansion will become law BY DEFAULT! 

When in fact the KDFWR did NOT do any such things and had filed the regs as they were supposed to on *Jan 12 at 11 A.M*. (if we can find this out, certainly they should have considering ONE of the guests on the show was in fact a Louisville Ky lawyer, who explained how this WOULD happen!)

NOW having been filed for MORE than a month; it's "odd" that they would use a radio program to make such unfounded accusations all to try to stop expansion, rather than try to win on appeal(read fair and within established rules)..

With the added support they feel they've gained by "scare tactics" (though unfounded in fact).....they PUSH for SB 211, even though it does MUCH more than keep the crossbow season as it is then.......

EVEN when it was shown the REAL result of this passing ON ALL KY hunters(including those who didn't care at all either way) they refused to "back down" and swear it's going to pass( a "longshot" at best, it was drafted much to late to be anywhere near a "sure thing" and the Gov would have vetoed it anyway, for several reasons, )

WE all knew the odds were against it passing but fought it VERY hard on the principle of the thing, YOU don't kill rats (expansion to them) with NUKES,(SB 211) the "fallout is deadly", and remains long past the initial blast!!

They had tried to gain support in the State Senate and House by using "their own facts" which were very easily disproven, and in fact the very morning of the "compromise" MY state Rep *called me* about exactly what was going on up there!! (so much for my not being there and therefore not knowing, and there is much more, to it than one call but I digress)....and he assured me it DID NOT have the support they felt they had, and in fact their falsehoods had been "discovered" (imagine that!) thus it was NEVER going to have any chance(and in fact had NOT even had a prelim vote on the floor and time was "running out", it STILL had the house to get through, so much for their "good will" on the compromise.....

ROUND FIVE:

NOW it seems they(the opposition) have become aware this "stupid bill" isn't likely to get passed this session, (whcih means FULL EXPANSION)...so NOW suddenly they're "willing to compromise".......

But to add insult to injury, Mr. "compromise involves both parties sitting down and working things out they both can live with, together", is there and agrees to this one! (knowing "both sides" are NOT involved first, and secondly make SURE, the crossbow is left our of the Prime Pre-Rut period), so our season (crossbow) NOW starts, stops(for the pre-rut, prime time) then starts up again, AFTER the pre-rut period!

Head full of cement or not, one should be able to easily see, that after over a year of us (not only willing) but WORKING for a compromise, THIS is what we get and how we're treated, in the "guise" of "good faith", yeah right!

So, in summary, WE worked long and hard to gain a compromise even knowing things were on OUR side for full expansion only to be told in one case" the crossbow issue will be thrown under the bus, and will NEVER be visited again(SB 211 was the "vehicle" to make this happen).....

THAT is the story, just as it happened, with as little "bias" as anyone having an opinion, and being involved can possibly tell, it, NOW with the facts known and made clear, perhaps most can understand why we're not so willing as we once were to work together with those who used every single dirty trick in the book to try to get their way, and when they ALL failed they still just had to keep things "ill" between both side, INCLUDING them bragging on public forums how they " kept us out of *their* "pre-rut" time.......

THEN they went SO far as to state on a public forum(or two) that they KNEW this was ALL that we would EVER get, they had "promises", which Dr.Gassett has assured us that he never made, SO, them saying "bend over" wasn't "good enough", they have to make up deals they didn't make, to hope to keep anyone from gaining or even trying to gain more inclusion in the future!!

ONE more point I want to make, there were a majority of the minoirty who supported it for deer but were concerned for the turkey populations stated recent bad hatches; WE took turkeys out of the picture(the Dept agreed to do so, to reach an agreement WE pushed for that however......it didn't change anything.......they got that and still wouldn't back up what they said they'd do......

NOW this season we've already taken *more* turkey than in many years and in fact; are "on track " for a RECORED turkey harvest!! So much for that concern, proving the Bilogists that work for the Dept. know what they're doing, as WE've said all along!

I'm sorry this is so long, but a great deal of detail and facts are presented......


----------



## aceoky

My aplogies Doc, I had to edit, out part of your quote to post the things that have occured,(size constraints) and while I actually agree with most of what you're saying about compromise, there is a limit to how much anyone should have to do , to try to make the minoirty "happy"

Doc* "If warranted, then we can examine a full expansion. If not, leave it alone. Pretty straight-forward*. "

THAT was OUR idea, but alas, those who didn't want to share at all, thwarted it every single chance they had....though at one point one "bow club officer" did offer the slight possibility of "gun season on"(Nov 12 or so to Jan 16), which we felt would keep too many seniors, women and youth out, especially during cold winters......many new hunters don't have the proper "gear" to hunt in colder weather, AND the fact they would be hunting distrubed deer the whole season at that rate , thus not having the real archery experience, THAT was however the ONLY thing even half-heartedly offered.....

FR, I didn't say NONE of them in the UK know, just perhaps the ones YOU'RE "talking to".....just as several in Ky don't know the whole deal on the compromise, but many will learn.....still what they know, or you know about this doesn't change the facts, of what actually occured, I've already explained what happened, choose to dismiss it if you wish, I couldn't care less at this point! 

There are (sadly) people who live in many places who don't bother to "keep up with" current events, much less a bill that is over 40 years old! 

Funny thing about truth and facts, they exist when people choose to believe them or not believe them, they always stand on their own!

Marvin it's all explained below, and AT NO TIME did I ever say that " *I* "single handly" did anything, please refrain from attempting to put things out I *never* posted... as if I did?? Thank you!

AS for my credibility, why not PROVE YOUR allegation of my being on ANY crossbow related payroll, or gaining ONE single $$ for my support of expansion.........'nuff said there, YOU make unfounded accusations and allegations that YOU can't back up, and question MY credibiltiy????  

Source's "facts" don't worry me one bit, and I am quite certain, I'm far from being alone on that....IF, YOU , think he's doing my credibility(or any of you are for that matter) live that dream, and enjoy it, I have no worries......especially since I know his input around MY state gains nothing!

See once again, I refrain from personal attacks, even though I'm "bombarded" by them , by a few, I have no intentions of "going there", it serves no real purpose and is usually done by those who don't have any facts or data on their side, which to use, so the best they can do, is to "name call, attack, and show their......"....

IF that is one's "strategy" far be it from me, to change it, it certainly does nothing to harm my position! :cocktail:


----------



## Free Range

> See once again, I refrain from personal attacks, even though I'm "bombarded" by them , by a few, I have no intentions of "going there", it serves no real purpose and is usually done by those who don't have any facts or data on their side, which to use, so the best they can do, is to "name call, attack, and show their......"....


Very interesting, how in the same paragraph, you can say you refrain from personal attacks, then accuse others of showing their….. Am I alone or is that an attack? And again I’m tired of posting your inaccuracies, but yes you have attacked just as much as anyone else here, so don’t try to act like you are on some higher level. 

And as for your history lesson above, the anti x-bow side did nothing more then you are doing now. It’s correct they didn’t want any expansion, nothing new there, and no they didn’t want compromise, nothing new there. Who goes into any debate, or battle wanting compromise? You know as well as I do, that had any compromise been reached before hand, that it would have been just a stepping stone. Just as you are now confirming. 

Lets see, we don’t want the x-bow in archery season, but lets offer them part of it anyway and maybe they will be satisfied and go away. Now that’s a nice strategy, you must have learned that in the government class you took.


----------



## aceoky

*Spin.......*

It's one thing to want a compromise and WORK for one, and those who are opposed to the whole idea wont' "budge" and inch, when it's the right thing to do for the hunters in one's state, that is obviously what happened here in KY.....

The "spin" IS that I'm against compromise, nothing could be further from the truth, *I* worked long and hard to try to get a "fair one for both sides of the issue", but to no avail do to the exact same things we're all seeing being posted lately.......

However a "compromise" should be done in "good faith", and for the right reasons, the "thing" in Ky was not done that way, and in fact was ONLY a last resort to defeat, FULL EXPANSION, which would have and should have became law, had this "tactic" not been used!

IF anyone thinks it's in Hunter's best interest, to support "back door deals", "dirty politics", that is your right, I don't and won't support that regardless of which side particiapted in them......I can somewhat understand; IF they're done in "retaliation" against the same measures being taken but never as a totally offensive move! 

The "end justifies the means" menatality, is NOT good for our image as a whole, and as I've said before, when hunters go against hunters(as the opposition did with SB 211) ONLY hunters can lose! THAT is imho, a 'big deal" and enough reason for my working so very hard on a compromise, even before the second survey was done......

NOW however, having seen what the opposition WILL do, and has in fact done to "get their way", without regard for other hunters, I am going to work for the full expansion, period, that is my right and my choice, and they brought it fully upon themselves!

NOW had it been properly done, chances are very good, that I wouldn't feel this way, they didn't and I do....

*Their* initial protest was based upon HOW it was done, then being the hypocrites they are, turned right around and did MUCH worse, HOW things are done to them *only * matters it seems when it doesn't fit THEIR agendas......

Excluding us(the pro side) from the final compromise talks, (which was in fact likely due to the time constraints of "get it done and done today), AND for "spite" keeping the crossbow out of he Pre-Rut period(which they not only admit, but BRAG about), serves no "good" purpose, and was done to cause more divisions and "in-fighting", and guess what ? It's working! They should be very proud they "sort of " got "their way", regardless of the tactics used??

My feelings of HOW this was done makes me seem "hard headed"?? So be it !

Had the "proper channels" been used e.g. things been done as they're supposed to be, that would be another matter entirely, why didn't they file an appeal? 

Maybe , just perhaps they knew they'd already lost??? 



Knowing the majority's wishes had been proven, AND the unamimous vote by the KDFWR commision(which keep in mind they only needed to gain ONE more vote to end this, instead they lost ALL the support they once had BECAUSE of their tactics......which were not so "ethical" at the very least)....

We will never know, what may have happened on an appeal being made, because they didn't bother with following the established rules that were not only well known but proven to work and "fair" to all involved!

So it's not the "Compromise" itself, that *I* have such a problem with, regardless of the "spin", it's HOW it was done, and the fact that the established rules were NOT followed, but circumvented(remember that is EXACTLY wha they accused the KDFWR of doing , and saying how WRONG that action was!!!)......

Thus, many, many hunters in Ky, are upset by this, NOT the result of getting some, but HOW it was done(just as important to many as the outcome btw).....and what was NOT done, that should have been done....

Were any laws broken? I'm not certain, but sometimes "ethics" comes into play, and as hunters THAT is important, to ALL of us......it must be!


----------



## aceoky

Free Range said:


> Very interesting, how in the same paragraph, you can say you refrain from personal attacks, then accuse others of showing their….. Am I alone or is that an attack?
> 
> EXACLTY whom did I "attack"??? See anyone mentioned by name? Didn't think so...
> 
> 
> And again I’m tired of posting your inaccuracies, but yes you have attacked just as much as anyone else here, so don’t try to act like you are on some higher level.
> 
> And as for your history lesson above, the anti x-bow side did nothing more then you are doing now. It’s correct they didn’t want any expansion, nothing new there, and no they didn’t want compromise, nothing new there. Who goes into any debate, or battle wanting compromise?
> WHEN you're the minority on an issue and KNOW the DEPT commision voted FOR FULL expansion, in the interest of gaining something , it would be WISE, to consider exactly that yes.......
> 
> You know as well as I do, that had any compromise been reached before hand, that it would have been just a stepping stone. Just as you are now confirming.
> 
> SO according to you it's in NO one's best interest to work toward ANY compromise? That's odd; since you have seem to state, otherwise on several occasions .......typical
> 
> Lets see, we don’t want the x-bow in archery season, but lets offer them part of it anyway and maybe they will be satisfied and go away. Now that’s a nice strategy, you must have learned that in the government class you took.
> SEE? NOW according to YOU I have taken a total of ONE governemnt class, how could YOU possibly know the extent(or lack of) my education???
> 
> THE point you seem to *wish to miss * IS that the majority had proven they wanted it, the Dept Commison had voted FOR FULL EXPANSION; time to get a clue, here WE had the "upper hand" YET , ........WE worked for a Compromise......didn't have to do so , WE chose to do, so, and give it a chance to gather KENTUCKY DATA.....



NOW having spent $ 70,000+ on the Cornell survey, WE had EVERY right to push for the entire season(since now we had TWO surveys PROVING what the majority wanted).....

YOU seem to think YOU can "paint" US as the "bad guys", but the FACT is: WE worked very hard to compromise, those who had EVERYTHING stacked against them, refused to WORK WITH US........in fact they continued to say "YOU will NEVER get ANY EXPANSION, not this year NEVER, we will do WHATEVER we have to do to make certain of that.....(and they tried too!)

NOW time to be honest here FR, WHEN *everything*
is AGAINST what you want, it's time to accept some compromise, IF you're taking into consideration ANYONE other than yourself, there ARE other hunters involved, who may not have any "side" on THIS ONE ISSUE, so if for no other reason, for them, you will NOT divide any more , and WORK TOGETHER FOR THE GOOD OF ALL .......

Why didn't that happen??


----------



## Free Range

> The "spin" IS that I'm against compromise, nothing could be further from the truth, *I* worked long and hard to try to get a "fair one for both sides of the issue", but to no avail do to the exact same things we're all seeing being posted lately.......


So how different would your compromise have been?



> I can somewhat understand; IF they're done in "retaliation" against the same measures being taken but never as a totally offensive move!


So in your mind two wrongs make a right?



> NOW however, having seen what the opposition WILL do, and has in fact done to "get their way", without regard for other hunters, I am going to work for the full expansion, period, that is my right and my choice, and they brought it fully upon themselves!


They brought it on themselves?? Strange I don’t remember any one on the oppsition side asking the x-bow lobby to push for inclusion. That is what brought this on, had it not been for those “minority” of hunters that wanted to use a x-bow in hunting season this would never have come to pass.



> keeping the crossbow out of he Pre-Rut period


Again it’s not about the x-bow it’s about horning in on the season. 



> Maybe , just perhaps they knew they'd already lost???


Could be, would you try something you thought wouldn’t work?


----------



## Marvin

aceoky said:


> It's one thing to want a compromise and WORK for one, and those who are opposed to the whole idea wont' "budge" and inch, when it's the right thing to do for the hunters in one's state, that is obviously what happened here in KY.....
> 
> The "spin" IS that I'm against compromise, nothing could be further from the truth, *I* worked long and hard to try to get a "fair one for both sides of the issue", but to no avail do to the exact same things we're all seeing being posted lately.......
> 
> However a "compromise" should be done in "good faith", and for the right reasons, the "thing" in Ky was not done that way, and in fact was ONLY a last resort to defeat, FULL EXPANSION, which would have and should have became law, had this "tactic" not been used!
> 
> IF anyone thinks it's in Hunter's best interest, to support "back door deals", "dirty politics", that is your right, I don't and won't support that regardless of which side particiapted in them......I can somewhat understand; IF they're done in "retaliation" against the same measures being taken but never as a totally offensive move!
> 
> The "end justifies the means" menatality, is NOT good for our image as a whole, and as I've said before, when hunters go against hunters(as the opposition did with SB 211) ONLY hunters can lose! THAT is imho, a 'big deal" and enough reason for my working so very hard on a compromise, even before the second survey was done......
> 
> NOW however, having seen what the opposition WILL do, and has in fact done to "get their way", without regard for other hunters, I am going to work for the full expansion, period, that is my right and my choice, and they brought it fully upon themselves!
> 
> NOW had it been properly done, chances are very good, that I wouldn't feel this way, they didn't and I do....
> 
> *Their* initial protest was based upon HOW it was done, then being the hypocrites they are, turned right around and did MUCH worse, HOW things are done to them *only * matters it seems when it doesn't fit THEIR agendas......
> 
> Excluding us(the pro side) from the final compromise talks, (which was in fact likely due to the time constraints of "get it done and done today), AND for "spite" keeping the crossbow out of he Pre-Rut period(which they not only admit, but BRAG about), serves no "good" purpose, and was done to cause more divisions and "in-fighting", and guess what ? It's working! They should be very proud they "sort of " got "their way", regardless of the tactics used??
> 
> My feelings of HOW this was done makes me seem "hard headed"?? So be it !
> 
> Had the "proper channels" been used e.g. things been done as they're supposed to be, that would be another matter entirely, why didn't they file an appeal?
> 
> Maybe , just perhaps they knew they'd already lost???
> 
> 
> 
> Knowing the majority's wishes had been proven, AND the unamimous vote by the KDFWR commision(which keep in mind they only needed to gain ONE more vote to end this, instead they lost ALL the support they once had BECAUSE of their tactics......which were not so "ethical" at the very least)....
> 
> We will never know, what may have happened on an appeal being made, because they didn't bother with following the established rules that were not only well known but proven to work and "fair" to all involved!
> 
> So it's not the "Compromise" itself, that *I* have such a problem with, regardless of the "spin", it's HOW it was done, and the fact that the established rules were NOT followed, but circumvented(remember that is EXACTLY wha they accused the KDFWR of doing , and saying how WRONG that action was!!!)......
> 
> Thus, many, many hunters in Ky, are upset by this, NOT the result of getting some, but HOW it was done(just as important to many as the outcome btw).....and what was NOT done, that should have been done....
> 
> Were any laws broken? I'm not certain, but sometimes "ethics" comes into play, and as hunters THAT is important, to ALL of us......it must be!



Ace, thanks for "your side" of the story. I know it took time to write. BUT You keep making this Back door politics comment. The laws are black and white....it was legal or it wasn't. You are simply bad mouthing because they figured out a way to stop you....legally. I do not care how bitter you are about it but its not any excuse to slander them with lies. Define ethics since you brought it up.


----------



## aceoky

Free Range said:


> Why can’t you just admit this is the real reason you are so upset, you were not asked to the table and now you are going to get even?
> 
> NOT even close at all......and I'll prove it further as well! :wink:
> 
> 
> 
> Lets see one side, you , wanted full expansion, and the other wanted no expansion. What was reached was something in between, now I call that compromise.
> 
> HAD it been properly done, when it should have been, I'd agree with that it wasn't and isn't...
> 
> If they had your DNR commissioner under the gun why didn’t they force him to stop all expansion? If only one side was present and that side wanted no expansion, and they had so much pressure on the DNR why not stop any expansion?
> 
> The KY LEGISLATURE called for a compromise NOW, they(the oppostition) had NO choice, but to accept some expansion OR full expansion, guess they took one??.....thought you kept up with this??? Guess not very well.....
> 
> 
> See Ace, I too have people on the inside telling me what went on at the meeting and who was there,
> 
> Well, then, I suggest you pick your sources much more carefully, either they weren't there or they are NOT telling you the facts....
> 
> even though I’m in CO. Your cries of dirty deals and one sided compromise doesn’t hold water even if I didn’t know what happened, I wouldn’t be buying any of it.
> 
> "Buy it or not", it IS what happened, and I'm proving it , can you disprove my proof, IF NOT, then please stick to what you actually understand and have "a clue" about, thanks
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Due process, not correctly? Is it illegal to introduce a bill in your state? You need to go back and take a government class, 8th grade level should do it. It is done every day, when someone wants change they introduce bills, if a change is happening they don’t like they add attachment’s or introduce counter bills.
> 
> ONCE again, you KNOW NOTHING about Ky laws and what is supposed to be done, suffice it to say NO; not it's NOT done for game laws IN KENTUCKY, game laws are made by regulation NOT statute....SO don't assume anything, you sir are very incorrect in that is NOTHING NEW.....
> 
> WE in KY have managed to keep the politicians OUT of the making of seasons and limits, which has worked VERY well for over 50 years thank you very much! SO, trying to change that BY LEGAL PRECIDENT', was a "NO WIN" for ALL OF KY'S HUNTERS.....period, no matter which side of this ONE issue one is on; and MOST agreed with this FACT(consider that many of our strongest oppositon would NOT support SB 211 YOU need the class FR not I....fyi
> 
> 
> 
> Well I guess things in KY might be more like Cuba then the rest of the United States, but I doubt it. And if something was done illegally then why hasn’t anyone been arrested?


THIS is from the "Official press release" on the "compromise"

This is a great example of how the sportsmen can interact with the Department, the League and our elected and appointed representatives to make the outdoor experience better for all sportsmen of Kentucky,” said *Ronnie Wells, President of the League of Kentucky Sportsmen. *..

“I am most appreciative that the League of Kentucky Sportsmen was able to be at the *center of the negotiations *and play a part in achieving this just compromise. 

All the involved groups have pledged to work even more closely together on issues that may arise in the future. As a result the sportsmen and sportswomen of Kentucky are more united and stronger than ever.”

NOW what makes this "tidbit" VERY interesting IS:

The LKS took a MEMBER VOTE, and *voted* to support the KDFWR on this issue!!!

ALSO the Board of Directors issued a Board Directive to the same .....SUPPORT THE EXPANSION, so imagine the surprise of the LKS membership(the LARGEST and most influential group in KY which deals DIRECTLEY with the KDFWR and of which I AM a member fwiw), when OUR president DECIDES ON HIS OWN to GO AGAINST THE Vote of HIS own membership AND the Board Directive because HE personally opposes the expansion! 

NO dirty dealings done??? GET A CLUE, FR, again it's obvious your "information" is severly flawed(at best)

"Working together", "Just Compromise", NOT hardly! HE went against the majority of his own membership to "be central " in the back door deal! 

You know what there IS again so much more to this, regardless of anyone's "spin", but it's not going to matter it seems, Hitler himself could have drafted this so called "compromise", and some wouldn't care, they'd ONLY care we didn't get FULL EXPANSION, no more matters to them......sad to say, that we as hunters don't care about "fair play", or "ethics" so long as the outcome is what we hoped for!


----------



## Free Range

> EXACLTY whom did I "attack"??? See anyone mentioned by name? Didn't think so...


You don’t have to mention names to attack, I know someone here that is a cry baby about the KY compromise. See I didn’t mention any names but that was an attack. 



> WHEN you're the minority on an issue and KNOW the DEPT commision voted FOR FULL expansion, in the interest of gaining something , it would be WISE, to consider exactly that yes.......


Spin, spin, spin. Now you’re changing the time table, at first they didn’t know they were the minority, nor did anyone else, even after the first “poll” and vote it was a very narrow margin. And to tell the truth, there are those that are still not convinced. 
Any survey can be worded or construed to any set of desired results. You have said that the game commission was for expansion, their bias could have been seeded in the survey. I’m not saying they told Cornell what results they wanted, but who’s idea was it to survey land owners, and all hunters, not just bow hunters? Bowhunters are the ones that will be the most affected. Could the DNR wanted those included because they thought it would help swing the results??? Maybe, I know it’s all conspiracy theory. 



> SO according to you it's in NO one's best interest to work toward ANY compromise? That's odd; since you have seem to state, otherwise on several occasions .......typical


If I miss lead you I’m sorry, here let me clear it up for you, I’m never in favor of compromise, I go into every battle, debate, game, or what have you to win, period. If how ever the opposition is strong enough that I can’t win then compromise is the next step. If you go into any endeavor with compromise in mind then you are weak and have already lost. Or you are being covert and know that if you compromise now there will other chances for full victory later, kind of like the ARA tactics. 



> WE had the "upper hand" YET , ........WE worked for a Compromise......didn't have to do so , WE chose to do, so, and give it a chance to gather KENTUCKY DATA.....


Wrong again you didn’t have the upper hand, before the Cornell survey, Which by your own account is when you were working for compromise. The first “poll” and vote was close by your own admission, and after the Cornell survey you thought you had the bull by the horns and went for the throat. Remember me asking you after the survey if the DNR decided to split the season along the lines (%) of the survey results, give the x-bow 70% and leave 30% of the season as a bow only season? Remember that, and do you remember your answer? I do. It was no way Jose. This was before the so called dirty tricks, and before SB2whatever. You only wanted compromise before you thought you had it all. And now you are trying to say you offered up the olive branch, bulllllony. 



> there ARE other hunters involved, who may not have any "side" on THIS ONE ISSUE, so if for no other reason, for them, you will NOT divide any more , and WORK TOGETHER FOR THE GOOD OF ALL .......


And yet you persist in attacking and pledge to stop at nothing less then full expansion, what about the good of those who my not have any side to this.


----------



## Free Range

> "Buy it or not", it IS what happened, and I'm proving it , can you disprove my proof,


You don’t have any proof just your story telling about what went on, do you have a tape of the session, or even the transcripts, if so post them up. 



> ONCE again, you KNOW NOTHING about Ky laws and what is supposed to be done, suffice it to say NO; not it's NOT done for game laws IN KENTUCKY, game laws are made by regulation NOT statute....SO don't assume anything, you sir are very incorrect in that is NOTHING NEW.....


Really then what was SB2whatever, was it a farm bill, was it a water rights bill, was it a sexual predator bill??? No it was about game laws, and if that is not allowed by your state laws, then it should have been thrown out and no discussion should have even happened about it. 



> the LARGEST and most influential group in KY which deals DIRECTLEY with the KDFWR and of which I AM a member fwiw


I thought you were for the DNR doing what they felt was best and we mer citezens should stay out of it, oh that’s only when they are doing what you want them to, I see.


----------



## doctariAFC

Ya know. Back door politcis or no back door politics, who cares. The facts are this, as I see them:

Kentucky Crossbow supporters achieved legalization of the crossbow for part of the archery season, but not all, despite the surveys conducted clearly showing the majority of Kentucky Hunters were receptive to allowing crossbows throughout early archery. Do I have this one correct?

If so, I would highly recommend that the pro-crossbow side examine this as it is - A HUGE VICTORY. After all, you went for the whole enchillada, but only got part of it, but, since before this part was palced on the plate, you had NO ENCHILLADA AT ALL.

Now, I can understand the disappointment in not gaining the whole magilla. However, you have more today than you had yesterday, and quite frankly, if you're soured by what may or may not have happened in the "back room politics arena", well, I say, welcome to the world of politics, and get over it. This is not an action that warrants the "get even with 'em ism". These are also hunters, and taking a combative approach serves no one but the real enemies, the anti hunters, as we cannot seem to see that both sides enjoyed both a partial victory and a partial defeat.

And, to mention that you spent $70,000.00 on another survey, or whatever, and that somehow motivates the pro crossbow side to "get it all", well, I would recommend you look at it like this. You had to spend the money to prove the facts of hunter desires, and you scored a victory. That's the cost of doing business.

Now, the best thing that both sides can do is put this in its proper perspective. Kentuckians have an added choice. That's a win. Kentucky Bowhunters preserved part of the archery season as it was, that's a victory for them, Both sides should shake hands, stop the name calling, and then work together to grow BOTH sides of the equation with youth and women, in addition to getting some of the older, more seasoned hunters back into the woods.

The grating, acidic tone of the back and forths are not very good at unity, and getting even with one side or the other is completely and totally unproductive, IMHO.

Thanks


----------



## aceoky

Free Range said:


> So how different would your compromise have been?
> 
> I worked on a few in fact, the last one was from Oct 1 - Dec 31(which is ALMOST exactly what we got, with the exclusion of the Pre-Rut fyi)
> 
> 
> So in your mind two wrongs make a right?
> 
> I didn't say that at all, what I did say was "somewhat understand" and that was all....not condone, more "spin" with NO proof, as usual for your side, WHERE are the facts you were not so long ago asking for???
> 
> 
> 
> They brought it on themselves?? Strange I don’t remember any one on the oppsition side asking the x-bow lobby to push for inclusion.
> 
> SO a minute ago, it's the American way, HOW does it matter who asked for it?? WHY would those opposed be expected by anyone to ask for what they do not wish, YOU are really reaching here!
> 
> That is what brought this on, had it not been for those *“minority*” of hunters that wanted to use a x-bow in hunting season this would never have come to pass.
> Gonna have to cal BS on that one! PROVE it, IF you can, YOU really need to work on your reading comprehension it seems
> 
> HERE again is the PROOF of who exactly IS the minority and who is NOT....
> 
> 1. Purpose The Kentucky Department of Fish and Wildlife Resources (KDFWR) has *received numerous requests over the past 5 years to extend the crossbow-hunting season*.
> 
> Additionally, the KDFWR recognizes a need to increase the harvest of whitetail deer in a large percentage of the state. In 2002, the KDFWR conducted a hunter survey that was mailed to 13,500 hunters in Kentucky – “What do you think about the use of crossbows during archery season?” Using the data from the survey and with the knowledge that an extended crossbow-hunting season would not have a negative impact on the resource,
> 
> *KDFWR recently proposed an extension of the crossbow-hunting season for whitetail deer and wild turkeys from the historical framework of a 10-day season to running at the same time as archery season *
> 
> *A minority of hunters (KDFWR received only 22 written comments in opposition to the season) lobbied legislators to terminate the season. *
> 
> 
> Again it’s not about the x-bow it’s about horning in on the season.
> 
> YOU call it "horning in", WE call in being included(inclusion) in a season that WE have every right to be included in especially since the MAJORITY support it......period! So even though YOU have tried to say the minority pushed for this, the FACTS (try them sometime would you? please)....PROVE otherwise....The opposition is the minority, not the pro-expansion side, and I have PROVEN it with facts, NOT opinions, or specualtions,
> 
> 
> 
> Could be, would you try something you thought wouldn’t work?


It doesn't matter, what *I* would try, or if it may or may not work, at least I would NOT try to go around a proven system, just to "get my own selfish way" especially against the majority's wishes, as they actually and in fact did just that!

THAT is the "rub", HOW they did, what was done, none of it was "above board" and IF it were, why was it all done in "secret"?? ONLY after one of the UCBK's members found SB 211 was it EVER mentioned in Public! (wonder why??) You shouldn't need to wonder, they had hoped it would "sneak in", IF that in anyone's mind is "The American Way", my sympathies go out to you whoever you are(and I mean that)

IF you can't win a battle based on facts and data, you have little chance of winning without using "other means", or that is the message we have gotten from this(and I promise you they HAVE helped our side by doing just that!) 

THAT has caused the division, NOT my(and MANY others) voicing our disaproval of what was done the FACT it was done! WE have every right to express our feelings on the matter , just as you're expressing your opinions on what happened, so IF WE are causing divison as you so often like to say, exactly what are YOU causing???

THE point is; there were avenues to use, they chose NOT to, rather to try to change the whole system, which believe it or not(doesn't matter now anyway) was a VERY BAD IDEA, even for those who didn't want expansion MANY agreed with this, what does that tell you?? (or better yet what should that tell you?) THEY were willing to fight SB 211, and get an expansion they didn't even want(some of them anyway), rather than see this become law!!!!

Those are the facts, and Marvin, btw that is not "my side" of the story that is EXACTLY what happened and how it happened, I was involved with it always, so I KNOW....

I didn't leave out any relevent facts as far as I can remember, and no "spin" was included, when thier words were used, they were said as such, and quoted as they happened, including the information on the mistake made by an angry commisioner......(I could have left that out, but didn't).....:darkbeer:


----------



## twogun

> Any survey can be worded or construed to any set of desired results.


http://www.kdfwr.state.ky.us/pdf/crossbowfinalreport.pdf?lid=1456&NavPath=C244C369


----------



## aceoky

If so, I would highly recommend that the pro-crossbow side examine this as it is - A HUGE VICTORY. *After all, you went for the whole enchillada, *but only got part of it, but, since before this part was palced on the plate, you had NO ENCHILLADA AT ALL.

NOPE Doc, you're "off base" in a big way here.....

AGAIN, WE(the pro-side) worked hard for over a year for a compromise(not the whole season, though we had proof that IS what was wanted, and we did so IN GOOD FAITH, with the odds ALL on our side)

So NO that is not even close!

Also, as for "none at all" that is 180 OFF as well, had the "FORCED compromise NOT occured we would have had it ALL.........they "blew it" when they didn't file the appeal they had every right to file and did NOT do so, they by doing so insured it would become LAW.......so not close again.....

*getting even with one side or the other is completely and totally unproductive, IMHO.*

Again Doc, you are missing the point, it has NOTHING to do with getting "even", it has to do with......

WE had everything on our side, ALL the facts TWO surveys, and WE were willing to *work together *despite that *for a compromise * the entire time THEY refused to "budge" then BEING FORCED to give us SOME or ALL(that was their ONLY two choices) they gave us this......."compromise" without the pro-side there AND kept the crossbow OUT of the Pre-Rut, for SPITE!!

NO other reason, and again they not only admit that , but BRAG about it!!!

NOW I'm all for getting along(as I've proven by supporting and WORKING for the compromise despite that we had everything on our side, I felt it best to work together to make all somewhat happy, but NO they said, for over a YEAR,,,,,,,,,,, NOTHING< NOTHING, see?

NOW I suppose it's in our best interest to just bend over and take it? NOPE, not going to happen, sorry IF that sounds to anyone like "getting even".....

The majority want this, WE tried to work with them together to form a united front, they wouldn't .....this "compromise" was the last chance for them to do "what was right", instead they got us an on/off/on/off season, for reasons of SPITE(we had to give you something, but we kept the best for ourselves, which they in fact did! , the got the entire early season, Sept 3- Oct 1st.....) AND the pre-rut.......WHY should the majority have to "bow down" to the minority and accept crumbs when they were the ones working toward a FAIR COMPROMISE??

After YOU work for over a year with people to work something out; and they in return stab you in the back for spite, then we'll see how eager you (or anyone else) is to continue to trust them on any matters 

The fact is: since the KDFWR wouldn't "bow down" for the minoirty, some felt it wise to try to "punish" them(their words btw, posted in an open forum no less!) for taking the position they serve the majority rather than the minoirty !!!

THAT was in fact the reason for drafting SB 211, an attempt to take control away from the KDFWR as "punishment" for not taking their side against the very wishes of the Majoirty of Ky hunters; and most know that to be a fact, some are just now learning, so please explain, how anyone should condone, or support such childish actions which obviously go against the "good of all in OUR state"???

Had the compromise been reached a year ago, we would have been very happy indeed to take it! 

Why wasn't it? They continued to believe they would NEVER budge and get away with it! 
NOW though, we're supposed to say "good job ole chap"?? After you refusing ALL of our attempts in obvious good will(remember everything was on our side, it had passed TWO commision votes prior to the one in Dec..which total makes three....fwiw)

NO sorry, to work so long and hard and in good faith to only get "shafted " in the end, does nothing for "unity", which WE worked for, even with so much on our side, THEY didn't even attemtp to so much as TRY !

Make NO mistake about it, they had NO choice, or they would have never accepted, any expansion, WE got some expansion because and ONLY because otherwise we would have gotten FULL EXPANSION, and they know this...

The "other side of the same coin" IS WE were willing to work together they were NOT.....big difference, and why we WILL work for the rest.....IT is after all what the majority want here, and the minoirty won't be able to rule the majority much longer especially after this last fiasco......


----------



## aceoky

twogun said:


> http://www.kdfwr.state.ky.us/pdf/crossbowfinalreport.pdf?lid=1456&NavPath=C244C369


I'm not certain of your point here???

The questions were NOT worded "funny", and simply asked several crossbow related questions concering crossbows being allowed the same time as archery, really simple.....

They had four choices:

Strongly support.
Somewhat support,
STrongly oppose,
Somewhat oppose

Seems very simple to me, and NO way to get any "certain response", you either support, or you oppose, can't get much more simple than that, AND you get the "extra" of somewhat or strongly for either choice! 

However THAT is the very reason for going with Cornell, they are experts in the field, NO one has their reputation for doing accurate and unbiased surveys, IF anyone doubts that , they'll need to take that up with Cornell, this was an INDEPENDENT survey, so as to NOT cast any doubt on the KDFWR in any outcome......and there is NONE...


----------



## Marvin

aceoky said:


> If so, I would highly recommend that the pro-crossbow side examine this as it is - A HUGE VICTORY. *After all, you went for the whole enchillada, *but only got part of it, but, since before this part was palced on the plate, you had NO ENCHILLADA AT ALL.
> 
> NOPE Doc, you're "off base" in a big way here.....
> 
> AGAIN, WE(the pro-side) worked hard for over a year for a compromise(not the whole season, though we had proof that IS what was wanted, and we did so IN GOOD FAITH, with the odds ALL on our side)
> 
> So NO that is not even close!
> 
> Also, as for "none at all" that is 180 OFF as well, had the "FORCED compromise NOT occured we would have had it ALL.........they "blew it" when they didn't file the appeal they had every right to file and did NOT do so, they by doing so insured it would become LAW.......so not close again.....
> 
> *getting even with one side or the other is completely and totally unproductive, IMHO.*
> 
> Again Doc, you are missing the point, it has NOTHING to do with getting "even", it has to do with......
> 
> WE had everything on our side, ALL the facts TWO surveys, and WE were willing to *work together *despite that *for a compromise * the entire time THEY refused to "budge" then BEING FORCED to give us SOME or ALL(that was their ONLY two choices) they gave us this......."compromise" without the pro-side there AND kept the crossbow OUT of the Pre-Rut, for SPITE!!
> 
> NO other reason, and again they not only admit that , but BRAG about it!!!
> 
> NOW I'm all for getting along(as I've proven by supporting and WORKING for the compromise despite that we had everything on our side, I felt it best to work together to make all somewhat happy, but NO they said, for over a YEAR,,,,,,,,,,, NOTHING< NOTHING, see?
> 
> NOW I suppose it's in our best interest to just bend over and take it? NOPE, not going to happen, sorry IF that sounds to anyone like "getting even".....
> 
> The majority want this, WE tried to work with them together to form a united front, they wouldn't .....this "compromise" was the last chance for them to do "what was right", instead they got us an on/off/on/off season, for reasons of SPITE(we had to give you something, but we kept the best for ourselves, which they in fact did! , the got the entire early season, Sept 3- Oct 1st.....) AND the pre-rut.......WHY should the majority have to "bow down" to the minority and accept crumbs when they were the ones working toward a FAIR COMPROMISE??
> 
> After YOU work for over a year with people to work something out; and they in return stab you in the back for spite, then we'll see how eager you (or anyone else) is to continue to trust them on any matters
> 
> The fact is: since the KDFWR wouldn't "bow down" for the minoirty, some felt it wise to try to "punish" them(their words btw, posted in an open forum no less!) for taking the position they serve the majority rather than the minoirty !!!
> 
> THAT was in fact the reason for drafting SB 211, an attempt to take control away from the KDFWR as "punishment" for not taking their side against the very wishes of the Majoirty of Ky hunters; and most know that to be a fact, some are just now learning, so please explain, how anyone should condone, or support such childish actions which obviously go against the "good of all in OUR state"???
> 
> Had the compromise been reached a year ago, we would have been very happy indeed to take it!
> 
> Why wasn't it? They continued to believe they would NEVER budge and get away with it!
> NOW though, we're supposed to say "good job ole chap"?? After you refusing ALL of our attempts in obvious good will(remember everything was on our side, it had passed TWO commision votes prior to the one in Dec..which total makes three....fwiw)
> 
> NO sorry, to work so long and hard and in good faith to only get "shafted " in the end, does nothing for "unity", which WE worked for, even with so much on our side, THEY didn't even attemtp to so much as TRY !
> 
> Make NO mistake about it, they had NO choice, or they would have never accepted, any expansion, WE got some expansion because and ONLY because otherwise we would have gotten FULL EXPANSION, and they know this...
> 
> The "other side of the same coin" IS WE were willing to work together they were NOT.....big difference, and why we WILL work for the rest.....IT is after all what the majority want here, and the minoirty won't be able to rule the majority much longer especially after this last fiasco......



I just got done reading the report. Quick and easy question. Was cornell contacted (selected) by them or were their other people contacted to see if they were interested?


----------



## Marvin

aceoky said:


> I'm not certain of your point here???
> 
> The questions were NOT worded "funny", and simply asked several crossbow related questions concering crossbows being allowed the same time as archery, really simple.....
> 
> They had four choices:
> 
> Strongly support.
> Somewhat support,
> STrongly oppose,
> Somewhat oppose
> 
> Seems very simple to me, and NO way to get any "certain response", you either support, or you oppose, can't get much more simple than that, AND you get the "extra" of somewhat or strongly for either choice!
> 
> However THAT is the very reason for going with Cornell, they are experts in the field, NO one has their reputation for doing accurate and unbiased surveys, IF anyone doubts that , they'll need to take that up with Cornell, this was an INDEPENDENT survey, so as to NOT cast any doubt on the KDFWR in any outcome......and there is NONE...


It does depend on how it is worded. was it computer or human?


----------



## Marvin

aceoky said:


> I'm not certain of your point here???
> 
> The questions were NOT worded "funny", and simply asked several crossbow related questions concering crossbows being allowed the same time as archery, really simple.....
> 
> They had four choices:
> 
> Strongly support.
> Somewhat support,
> STrongly oppose,
> Somewhat oppose
> 
> Seems very simple to me, and NO way to get any "certain response", you either support, or you oppose, can't get much more simple than that, AND you get the "extra" of somewhat or strongly for either choice!
> 
> However THAT is the very reason for going with Cornell, they are experts in the field, NO one has their reputation for doing accurate and unbiased surveys, IF anyone doubts that , they'll need to take that up with Cornell, this was an INDEPENDENT survey, so as to NOT cast any doubt on the KDFWR in any outcome......and there is NONE...


They had 5....I thought you read the report?


Questions 2 and 3
Would you support or oppose expanding crossbow season from its current time frame to a time frame that runs at the same time with archery season for [deer/turkey]? Would you say you:
<1> Strongly oppose expanding crossbow season
<2> Somewhat oppose expanding crossbow season
<3> Neither support nor oppose expanding crossbow season
<4> Somewhat support expanding crossbow season
<5> Strongly support expanding crossbow season


----------



## Marvin

Anyone have a link to the first report?


----------



## Mag-Tek

Howard Hill was shooting animals over 100 yards away with long bows and wooden arrows. Some of the new long bows shoot as fast as the first compounds did. 

Most deer are taken by compound bows within the average long bow range. And lets keep the x-bows with the gun hunters. Thier is absolutely no archery skills used in a cross bow, we do not need K-mart x-bow hunter in the woods.

Just my opion, archery is primitive until the arrow shoots faster than a deer can jump the arrow. We are way off that speed for now. 

I seen this happen in Oregon years ago. Some so called primitive archers wanted a season to themselves. So they called on some gun hunters to vote with them. What they ended up with was the same archery season, but now a hunter must pick bow or gun to hunt the season with. No more hunting both seasons.

Just my opion and a little history over my last 40 years of shooting.

Any attempt to divide archery will weaken it. And give anti hunters and gun hunters a weak spot to attack us at.


----------



## aceoky

*The grating, acidic tone of the back and forths are not very good at unity*

Doc, I agree 100%, but I don't know what to tell, you...

..let's look at exactly what has transpired here over the past few day.......fair enough(I hope so) 

I post something, I'm called names, the post is disputed(but with NO facts at all to support the dispute of my post ever)....

I offer more proof again, the name calling and disputes, again where is their proof???  

Then I'm accused of many things among which are taking money, for my support.(not true btw, but not relevent anyway )....not being a bow hunter, ( I won't go on, I'm sure you see where this is going)..

I again back up my claims with more proof, not "stooping to the name calling etc.", and here we go again, so in short, I could post that deer taste great, and I would not be one bit surprised to be accused on never having taken a deer much less eating one!!!

In summary, I post what I feel are relevent facts, get told they're not, but am not seeing ANY facts to support those claims, get called several names, have unfounded accusations made against ME(not the facts, which they again are giving any to counter with).....

So I post what I think is relevent, instead of facing facts, I face all of the above, and get called names, I can handle that, as I've proven....

.I honeslty don't know what the answer is, other than my not bothering to post, which it seems that would serve no one, since many of the facts I'm posting may be meaningful to some, who would like another view??? OR maybe they're not???


----------



## Marvin

aceoky said:


> *The grating, acidic tone of the back and forths are not very good at unity*
> 
> Doc, I agree 100%, but I don't know what to tell, you...
> 
> ..let's look at exactly what has transpired here over the past few day.......fair enough(I hope so)
> 
> I post something, I'm called names, the post is disputed(but with NO facts at all to support the dispute of my post ever)....
> 
> I offer more proof again, the name calling and disputes, again where is their proof???
> 
> Then I'm accused of many things among which are taking money, for my support.(not true btw, but not relevent anyway )....not being a bow hunter, ( I won't go on, I'm sure you see where this is going)..
> 
> I again back up my claims with more proof, not "stooping to the name calling etc.", and here we go again, so in short, I could post that deer taste great, and I would not be one bit surprised to be accused on never having taken a deer much less eating one!!!
> 
> In summary, I post what I feel are relevent facts, get told they're not, but am not seeing ANY facts to support those claims, get called several names, have unfounded accusations made against ME(not the facts, which they again are giving any to counter with).....
> 
> So I post what I think is relevent, instead of facing facts, I face all of the above, and get called names, I can handle that, as I've proven....
> 
> .I honeslty don't know what the answer is, other than my not bothering to post, which it seems that would serve no one, since many of the facts I'm posting may be meaningful to some, who would like another view??? OR maybe they're not???


:violin: :drama: :caked:


----------



## aceoky

Sorry Marvin my mistake! 

Though the "neither numbers " are hardly worth reading as they are clearly not significant in my view, however, I didn't mean to leave that out.....

The link I posted IS the "first link"(and only one that I'm aware of fwiw).....


----------



## doctariAFC

aceoky said:


> *The grating, acidic tone of the back and forths are not very good at unity*
> 
> Doc, I agree 100%, but I don't know what to tell, you...
> 
> ..let's look at exactly what has transpired here over the past few day.......fair enough(I hope so)
> 
> I post something, I'm called names, the post is disputed(but with NO facts at all to support the dispute of my post ever)....
> 
> I offer more proof again, the name calling and disputes, again where is their proof???
> 
> Then I'm accused of many things among which are taking money, for my support.(not true btw, but not relevent anyway )....not being a bow hunter, ( I won't go on, I'm sure you see where this is going)..
> 
> I again back up my claims with more proof, not "stooping to the name calling etc.", and here we go again, so in short, I could post that deer taste great, and I would not be one bit surprised to be accused on never having taken a deer much less eating one!!!
> 
> In summary, I post what I feel are relevent facts, get told they're not, but am not seeing ANY facts to support those claims, get called several names, have unfounded accusations made against ME(not the facts, which they again are giving any to counter with).....
> 
> So I post what I think is relevent, instead of facing facts, I face all of the above, and get called names, I can handle that, as I've proven....
> 
> .I honeslty don't know what the answer is, other than my not bothering to post, which it seems that would serve no one, since many of the facts I'm posting may be meaningful to some, who would like another view??? OR maybe they're not???


I understand completely. Frustrating and unbelievable. Hey, come on to NYS, and you'll really blow a gasket! I guess I'm used to this sort of thing happening in politics. After all, NYS is basically run by three men in a closet, the Gov, the Assembly Speaker, and the Senate Maj Leader. If you happen to have an in when the closet door closes, it doesn't matter what the majority wants, you get to have a powwow with the thre "wise" men, and shazaam, its a done deal.

But, take a breath, understand that you made some amazing progress, really you did. Become dilligent in information collection, and then go back to the table and present the facts again, only this time you will have some real information pertaining to crossbows in KY, rather than only survey information, but no hard data definitive to KY.

But I would recommend to all sides the following. Smile, shake hands, and get back to being hunters, rather than politicians. there's plenty of time to resume the political struggle. In the mean time, enjoy what you have accomplished, because, despite the near slam dunk, you still hit a 3-pointer. And its all good.


----------



## Marvin

aceoky said:


> We in KY have taken *TWO surveys* which *prove*
> The MAJORITY want FULL EXPANSION (not a compromise of ANY KIND btw).....yet still it WAS the PRO-SIDE who tried in vain to get one rather than fight for the full seasson, and YES I can back that up and prove it easily!



so what is meant by this then?


----------



## aceoky

One other point on the KY expansion issue Doc;

WE have had a 10 day Crossbow season for years; the way it is here, archery comes in first and runs concurrently with all other seasons(IOW , you CAN use a bow during the entire season if you want, including the rut and pre-rut)...

Also, we have a disablility permit, which the Dept has NO knowledge of how many there are out there, ALL that is required is you print out the form and have a doctor to sign it and you must then carry it on your person anytime you're using a crossbow during archery season(IF no other weapons are allowed), crossbows are also allowed during ANY gun or ML season as well, so it's not as if we had nothing prior to this......not at all, just to be more clear (or to try to be at least)


----------



## thesource

oldbhtrnewequip said:


> *You said
> ...
> 
> To the first... I think its obvious that nonhunters (my neighbors, anyway) feel that crossbows in bow season are cheating the deer. That means violating their idea of fair chase, although they may not be familiar to the concept.*
> 
> So deer can tell the difference between bow season and crossbow season?
> Would crossbows in crossbow season be cheating the deer?
> Would muzzleloaders in ML season be cheating the deer?
> Would firearms in firearm be cheating the deer?


No need to be condescending.

Would a 7mm mag in bowseason be cheating?
I'm pretty sure that most would agree it is....

You understand perfectly well why my neighbors consider it cheating....and why others would, as well.




oldbhtrnewequip said:


> *You said
> ...
> Bowhunters are busy doing what bowhunters do during bowseason, trying to outwit whitetails on their own terms. Along comes those who want crossbows to make it easier to defeat the deer's defenses...and they consider that to be cheating.*
> 
> On whose terms? The deer's terms or the bowhunter's terms?
> Have you talked to them about knife season and had them give you
> an opinion on whether selfbows are cheating compared to knives?
> Cheating the deer that is. By hunting during knife seaon when all the deer
> clearly know that its knife season, not bow season.
> What is their opinion regarding the difference between compound and recurves? Aren't compounds "cheating?"


And now you are becoming QUITE condescending. You are generally one of the more reasonable pro-siders, so it surprises me a bit.



oldbhtrnewequip said:


> *You said
> ...
> I think competition can and does occur in hunting. Whether it is about the score of the antlers, the number of deer per season, or beating the next guy to your favorite stand, competition exists in hunting.
> 
> Personally, I could care less about score and even less about the number of deer per season. *
> 
> We agree. I think we also agree that we don't want anyone looking 'down' on what we do as not being ethical _enough _and not being fair chase _enough_.


You assume too much.

I firmly believe in high ethics and fair chase, I believe its pretty straightforward and much easier to comprehend than the fencesitting lawbreakers lead you to believe, and actually think that P&Y rule's should be stiffened to exclude baiting and escape proof fencing.



oldbhtrnewequip said:


> I think we agree that there are varying degrees of difficulty associated with individual methods and practices that we all choose as individuals. I think we agree that those who make it _more_ fair for the deer, should be provided with _more_ time or _better _time (rut).
> to hunt. Unless of course we decide to buy/use tink's in the middle of rut
> because that defeats the deer's senses, and would be considered cheating.
> Maybe no one should hunt during rut? Should we outlaw tinks? If I _milk_ the does myself is it okay?



You want to outlaw Tink's during bowseason, but you are fine with stringguns in bowseason. Hmmmmm.

You are smarter than that. Methods and practices are FAR different than equipment differences. You can try to pull it into play, but it washes out as a common denominator. Anyone, be it crossbow or bow, recurve or longbow or compound, can use scents, calls, doublebull blinds, treestands, decoys and the myriad of red herrings you try to employ to confuse the issue.

They cancel out. That leaves the original question about equipment differences.....

Challenge (from a hunter's perspectiveness) is the same as "fairness" from my neighbors perspective.

The bowhunting challenge is to take a deer on at close range and win (there is your competition.) 

Winning by making the rules easier is cheating. If one team only has to get 7 yards for a first down, or the net is dropped to 8' on one side of the court, one group tees off from the Ladies' tee while the rest must play from the tips ....

Awwww, you get the picture.


----------



## doctariAFC

Actually, we may see a movement to ban Tinks, and other buck lures completely, but not for the reasons stated above. CWD issue....

:confused3:


----------



## aceoky

Marvin it means exactly what I said, WE were willing to accept some "middle ground" in order to pursue peace and goodwill,and "get along", even with everything on our side, the opposition were NOT....(even with everything against them, and they've only made that part worse with the other things....)... just a simple little fact...

I *guess I'm used to this sort of thing happening in politics. *

Doc, you'd have to understand so much about Ky and such, but for the sake of keeping it more simple, I'll just say the Senator they got to draft this is the same one that last year proposed that EVERY deer killed had to be personally inspected by a Warden ON THE SITE, COULD NOT BE MOVED , prior to this visual inspection!!!!!

Can you imagine YOUR deer spoiling while YOU wait for this??? THAT I hope puts things into a better "light" for all ....


----------



## Marvin

aceoky said:


> Marvin it means exactly what I said, WE were willing to accept some "middle ground" in order to pursue peace and goodwill,and "get along", even with everything on our side, the opposition were NOT....(even with everything against them, and they've only made that part worse with the other things....)... just a simple little fact...
> 
> I *guess I'm used to this sort of thing happening in politics. *
> 
> Doc, you'd have to understand so much about Ky and such, but for the sake of keeping it more simple, I'll just say the Senator they got to draft this is the same one that last year proposed that EVERY deer killed had to be personally inspected by a Warden ON THE SITE, COULD NOT BE MOVED , prior to this visual inspection!!!!!
> 
> Can you imagine YOUR deer spoiling while YOU wait for this??? THAT I hope puts things into a better "light" for all ....



UHHH what are you talking about Ace? I asked you a couple of questions. none of them pertain to the answer you gave me. :noidea: 2 surveys? You stacking the deck again??


----------



## thesource

aceoky said:


> *The grating, acidic tone of the back and forths are not very good at unity*
> 
> Doc, I agree 100%, but I don't know what to tell, you...
> 
> ..let's look at exactly what has transpired here over the past few day.......fair enough(I hope so)
> 
> I post something, I'm called names, the post is disputed(but with NO facts at all to support the dispute of my post ever)....


Boo hoo hoo hoo.
OMG - cowboy up, ya baby.

I NUKED YOU on your "facts" when I totally showed that the number 1 reason hunters oppose crossbow in KY is that they feel they are not bows.

That proves your facts were wrong

1) when you said it was sharing the woods 

and 

2) When you said noone outside KY could understand the survey results better than someone who lives there. 

LOL. And here's another. I posted more facts here to dispute yet another one of your lame arguements...that noone can post facts to dispute your arguements.

You have been getting what you deserve. Stop sniveling.


----------



## J. Wesbrock

Freerange,



> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> By DoctariAFC
> WOunding rates with primitive bows are higher than with compound bows and crossbows. That is a proven, documented fact.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Doc I’m not going to say you’re wrong here, knowing how good your are at researching your facts, unlike others here. But I have done a little research on this and have not seen any documentation proving this. The only study I have seen is the camp Ripley study, and they didn’t distinguish between the compound and Traditional equipment. Heck I’m not sure when that study was done off the top of my head, but it might have been done BC (before compound).
Click to expand...

The McAlester Study blew that load of hogwash completely out of the water a long time ago. There was actually a slight, albeit statistically insignificant, *decrease* in wounding rates after MAAP was made traditional only. And a similar study done by Wildlife Biologist Lee Gladfelter in Iowa resulted in the same findings.

Both these studies have been writen about, cited and published in various mainstream outdoor and bowhunting magazines several times over the years. As a matter of fact, Deer & Deer Hunting did a piece on the McAlster Study within the last two or three years, so there's no need to track down Billy Jo Cletus at the trailer park in Possum Scratch, KY for his indepth wounding analysis. :deadhorse


----------



## thesource

LOL - very good information, J.


Doctari - please acknowledge these FACTS, since they are so important to you and you seem to have a difficult time remembering where they come from.


----------



## aceoky

Source , you continue to live in your "dream world" if you're happy there, makes no matter to me at all..

NUKED ME?? :darkbeer: 

Was that when you used an *entirely different *question/answer than I used? to *try* to prove that the question I quoted was about "those unable to use a conventional bow"??

Again, *clearly * the question was asked about TWO seperate cases (that why I have the ALSO ASKED in red btw)AND the result % are even different there MR. Scientific........Yeah, you're "facts" nuked me, and I'm soooooo worried.....

Did it NOT say "leading reason"? Then deal with it!

It's NOT my survey, I didn't write ONE single word of it, thus "your spin" on the facts mean nothing to me, just as Marvin finds "screwy math", not my problem, if he can't tell the difference in the majoirty percentages and the minority percentages, and how they're listed, you may have noticed, I never "filled him in" on where he was making the mistake, because I didn't write it, that's between whomever and Cornell to debate.....

The ONLY part I care one "iota" about is what the majority want, AND the fact the majority approve of the job OUR Dept is doing.....the rest means nothing to me at all(which explains how I forgot the "neither" category, as I found it to not be relevent based upon the numbers so I simply dismissed it)

So try as you might, you've changed 0, nothing nadda, zilch of what IS important in the survey, better luck "next time" with your "nuke attack".....

WHO exactly *cares* why the MINORITY oppose something? YOU have "proven" nothing, however YOU look at it, if 100% of the minority felt that way , it matters not! They are in fact still the minority, and they differed in reasons for opposing it(and NONE of them have any basis in facts either, remember FACTS is what we're supposed to be interested in NOT opinions)

IF you take a vote and the outcome is 70 yeah 30 nay, who goes around to ask why the few said NO???

OR 99-1??? or........

It's my guess(and only a guess) that most people are more concerned about why the majority support it(whatever "it" may be) rather than what the minoirty think.....dontcha think???

Now had it been 51-49, you might have a point, it wasn't thus you don't.....(in my opinion anyway)

Thus, I for one find your "nuke" amusing.....if nothing else!

Now if/when you start providing *relevent* facts that matter, that may well be different, but what a few think, about something changes nothing about what most want, and in fact, despite some of your claims(among others) even bow hunters by a vast majority in KY supported expansion!! See? THAT is relevent to the discussion!

IN TWO* seperate questions *they agreed they thought it would add to hunter recruitment and retention!!! = Relevent to discussion.......the few who didnt' agree = not relevent as to why they didn't, it matters not .....(BTW I have posted both together to prove they are indeed two different questions, though unlike you I don't consider that a "Nuke" and it's not my intention to argue either, only to present relevent facts and discuss those........

Marvin, the first of the two surveys was done in 2002, so I can't tell you where to find that information, I can tell you the majoirty was for it as this time, though, as I recall, not hardly as much of a percentage,(but pretty close)

The KDFWR as you'll notice, says the majority also were for expansion on that, and they would have no reason to make it up, as anyone could have easily gotten proof of that.....either way......thus no reason to question it as facts imho


----------



## Free Range

I’m going to let this rest for a bit, just wanted to point out one thing before I get out of here. Below is Ace’s second post on this thread, the first one was close to this tone but not so bad. But his second post took what I had written completely out of context, The only mentioned of x-bows was to point out how I felt if they or Traditional bowhunters wanted their own season that was fine with me. I was directly responding to the orig question about chopping up the season. And who was it that jumped in with both feet? Well I got to go, I have a 3-d shoot to run this weekend, and a 4-H archery event to plan for later this month. Please keep it civil I would like to see this one on-going when I get back. 



> Is this to what you refer?
> 
> "I don’t feel there is any reason to chop up the season we now have. If the trad guys want their own season it should come from time that no one is hunting now, just like the x-bow guys, if they want their own season it should come before or after the regular bow season. Horning in on what others have fought for and maintained is selfish and irresponsible, it causes division and ill will amongst hunters.


Maybe before you post stuff like this below you should go back and see just whom it was that started what. 




> The grating, acidic tone of the back and forths are not very good at unity
> 
> Doc, I agree 100%, but I don't know what to tell, you...
> 
> ..let's look at exactly what has transpired here over the past few day.......fair enough(I hope so)
> 
> I post something, I'm called names, the post is disputed(but with NO facts at all to support the dispute of my post ever)....


----------



## aceoky

*2) When you said noone outside KY could understand the survey results better than someone who lives there. *

Gonna have to call you on that one.......show me where I said EXACTLY that please.....more "spin" as expected.....

Actually my intended point was this survey has been "beaten to death in KY"(or tried to be to no avail)... so there is "nothing new" that we've likely not heard ten times or more fwiw

Marvin, 

On the "screwy math", IF you'll read it closely again, I think you'll find those "figures" of the % of the minoirty(left over from the larger number)......:darkbeer: ..

IOW; if there were 27% for example left over, then say 68% of THOSE, felt "this way", NOT 68% of the total number, as you seemed to understand......

Not hard to do honestly, unless you actually read how the data is compiled and evaluated, so, I won't go further than that with it.....:cocktail: 

I'll even agree, unless one was to devote some serious time, it's confusing,(those % figures NOT the survey itself)... however, I find those numbers not to be relevent, since after all, the survey was done for only one reason to find out what the majority of those surveyed felt about expansion, that was accomplished, by and outside, independent source, the rest is "moot" to me.....at least mostly


----------



## twogun

> I'm not certain of your point here???


There has been a lot of speculation and insinuation about the survey, so I thought I would post a link to the report and questions. I thougt the questions were clear and saw no indication of any bias or attempt at a predetermined outcome as FreeRange implied. It's here in black and white for all to see. The speculation should stop now.

*Source,* (didn't want you to miss this)

You claim that you feel that the sportsman of each state should make the decisions concerning their hunting. You are also a stickler for following the letter of the law. Kentucky did two surveys, and both indicated that crossbow expansion was supported. The people fighting for the expansion played by the rules. So, do you agree that the will of the state's sportsman should be carried out as you have indicated in the past?



> More than one-half of everyone surveyed (especially those from the hunting sample) supports expanding the crossbow season for deer and turkey to make them the same as archery season. A minority said they neither support nor oppose the idea and only about one-fourth oppose the expansion:
> 59% of landowners support expanding crossbow season for deer, 58% for turkey
> Survey Research Institute ● Cornell University ● www.sri.cornell.edu ● Voice: (607) 255-3786 ● Fax: (607) 255-7118
> 8
> 63% of hunting sample support expanding crossbow season for deer, 62% for turkey (higher for Districts 5, 7, 8 and 9)


----------



## thesource

aceoky said:


> WHO exactly *cares* why the MINORITY oppose something?


LOL.

Nice try.

YOU constantly try to infer that those who oppose crossbows are a minority, and YOU constantly try to infer that those who oppose crossbows do so because they refuse to share the woods.

HERE we have DATA that says otherwise, and you refuse to accept it.

ROFLMAO. You look really, really stupid right now. I'm embarrassed for you.  

But you DO make me laugh ... and that should count for something!


----------



## thesource

aceoky said:


> *2) When you said noone outside KY could understand the survey results better than someone who lives there. *
> 
> Gonna have to call you on that one.......show me where I said EXACTLY that please.....more "spin" as expected.....


LOL - you are funny.

Of course, I didn't say you said exactly that, but let's see how close we are.....



aceoky said:


> Well, we'll let others decide who is and isn't "dumb enough" on what is posted, consider I live here KNOW the facts on this survey far better than most, for reasons you don't seserve to know , yet you presume to "correct me" on it...


Does that about cover it? OMG - please keep throwing these hanging curveballs!:banana:


----------



## aceoky

FR *"I don’t feel there is any reason to chop up the season we now have. If the trad guys want their own season it should come from time that no one is hunting now, just like the x-bow guys, if they want their own season it should come before or after the regular bow season. 

Horning in on what others have fought for and maintained is selfish and irresponsible, it causes division and ill will amongst hunters"*

YOU brought up the crossbow as you admit, the original post had nothing to do with them at all!

Also it says "would come out of existing season" NOT "chop up", and I was honestly asking IF that was what he meant(the poster to whom *I* responded).....which was my right?? It's nice to KNOW of what one speaks, IF you're going to participate???? Nothing "odd or unusual" there at all, it was YOU that took that in the "wrong light", nothing I can do about that, however, at NO time did, I attack you , call you names none of that........period

I asked a simple question in response to another post....no more and no less....period

YOU are the one who keeps saying "chop up", and "horning in", who said those things, the orginal poster or YOU??

Hope your shoots go well btw......


----------



## aceoky

thesource said:


> LOL - you are funny.
> 
> *2) When you said noone outside KY could understand the survey results better than someone who lives there.*
> 
> Of course, I didn't say you said exactly that, but let's see how close we are.....
> 
> Originally Posted by aceoky
> Well, we'll let others decide who is and isn't "dumb enough" on what is posted, consider *I* live here KNOW the facts on this survey far better than most, for reasons you don't seserve to know , yet you presume to "correct me" on it...
> Does that about cover it? OMG - please keep throwing these hanging curveballs!:banana:


I said *I* know the facts on the survey, as I've mentioned WE (IN KY) have been over this many, many,many times, there is likely nothing "new" for you or anyone to bring up that hasn't ......(NOT that NO one outside of Ky knows them or can understand them.....AS YOU tried to claim)

BUT that is a "far cry" from what YOU said, that I posted.....easy enough to see that.....

LOL YOU"RE funny......YOU have NO facts to use, so you try to insult me, make fun of me, defame me, yet in the end, you have proven 0,nadda, zilch, NOTHING to help your side.....

IOW, where are some facts to bring up supporting the "loss", EXACTLY what your side would "lose"(i.e. NO longer be able to do) if the crossbow or any other archery weapon were allowed.........THAT is relevent, this other BS is not, and my guess tiring for some who may want to see some ACTUAL, factual reasons for your claims, as Doc asked nicely for facts........NOT opinions

I'm very much interested, in what you guys can come up with, and it would be nice to stick to facts and leave the "personal" stuff outside of this......agreed??? 

I'll :darkbeer: to that idea!


----------



## aceoky

Case in point:

I failed to notice I left EACH out in my post on the crossbow accident rate in Ohio......( I also chose to not count the season, that had no accidents) so I must be bad at math......not called for and in poor taste IMHO, and does nothing to add to the discussion, did it bother me, NO, but most I bet couldn't care less if I am or am not.....

Only the "each" was noticed, though I expected the no accident's season to be called (like I can't count to three)ukey: 

Play music, make fun, I honestly do not care, however the Mod of this site seems to, so why isn't that enough?

What about respect for the other members IF some are not willing to give it to the Moderators???

IOW, we CAN debate these issues as grown men, as gentlemen even, IF we will do that then everyone can actually possibly gain from that.......not really so much to ask now is it??


----------



## 460461whatever

aceoky said:


> NOPE didn't "have to" the Dept. figured it was only fair, since 90% of KY hunting takes place on PRIVATE LAND, thus those who's land would be hunted should have a say....( I wonder why I know that and you didn't)


Being that this thread is already somewhat off topic, I had to address this comment. I thought we are talking about hunting DEER and not LAND! And, last I remember, deer are property of the STATE and NOT the landowner. It does NOT matter what land the deer walk, bed, eat, or drink on. Also, ACE, the department should be representing scientific wildlife management and NOT what the majority of anybody wants. In any state, that is what the LEGISLATURE is for.

Thanks for allowing me to join in.


----------



## aceoky

thesource said:


> LOL.
> 
> Nice try.
> 
> YOU constantly try to infer that those who oppose crossbows are a minority,
> I do NOT "infer" anything, I have proven it and done so many,many times, *I* don't have to "infer" I have actual, factual proof , it's a FACT Those at least IN KY ARE in FACT a minority, and judging from other states that is likely the case there, notice the "strong opposition" VA faced??? NONE to speak of.....so who IS 'inferring here".....(hint, NOT me)
> 
> 
> and YOU constantly try to infer that those who oppose crossbows do so because they refuse to share the woods.
> 
> That is the usual reason when they're finally honest, as has been proven here, "I'll share, as long as you do it MY way".....again.......facts are still facts, when YOUR side, admits to this, it's impossible to dispute..HOW many times on this thread alone have we heard about "overcrowding", "ruining the archery experience do to other hunters, Joeys, etc"???
> 
> HERE we have DATA that says otherwise, and you refuse to accept it.
> 
> There is a huge difference in not caring and finding it not relevent and refusing to accept it....IOW , it means nothing in this discussion to me, and liekly to most
> 
> ROFLMAO. You look really, really stupid right now. I'm embarrassed for you.
> 
> IF you say so.....
> 
> But you DO make me laugh ... and that should count for something!


Glad you're amused! However, still I fail to see any really relevent data or fact that support YOUR postion on any of this, I am actually looking forward to some.......


----------



## awshucks

Very informative read!!! Thanks!! I will wash my hands after shooting my crossbow, and really am interested in the exploits of Howard Hill and his 187 yd elk kill!! Some of you look up to this guy? How many more like him are/were around??


----------



## thesource

aceoky said:


> I said *I* know the facts on the survey, as I've mentioned WE (IN KY) have been over this many, many,many times, there is likely nothing "new" for you or anyone to bring up that hasn't ......(NOT that NO one outside of Ky knows them or can understand them.....AS YOU tried to claim)
> 
> BUT that is a "far cry" from what YOU said, that I posted.....easy enough to see that.....
> 
> LOL YOU"RE funny......YOU have NO facts to use, so you try to insult me, make fun of me, defame me, yet in the end, you have proven 0,nadda, zilch, NOTHING to help your side.....



Squeeeeeaaaal!!!!

Keep squealing ace. You're only diggin it deeper.:tongue:


----------



## aceoky

460461whatever said:


> Being that this thread is already somewhat off topic, I had to address this comment. I thought we are talking about hunting DEER and not LAND! And, last I remember, deer are property of the STATE and NOT the landowner. It does NOT matter what land the deer walk, bed, eat, or drink on. Also, ACE, the department should be representing scientific wildlife management and NOT what the majority of anybody wants. In any state, that is what the LEGISLATURE is for.
> 
> Thanks for allowing me to join in.


First welcome aboard, now allow me to attempt at least to explain.......

The landowners must grant permission to hunt, NO reason to pass this IF they're strongly opposed, again 90% of Ky hunting takes place on THEIR lands......that's huge!

The Kentucky Department of Fish and Wildlife Resources (KDFWR)* has received numerous requests over the past 5 years to extend the crossbow-hunting season*. Additionally, the KDFWR recognizes a need to increase the harvest of whitetail deer in a large percentage of the state. In 2002, the KDFWR conducted a hunter survey that was mailed to 13,500 hunters in Kentucky – “What do you think about the use of crossbows during archery season?” Using the data from the survey

and with the knowledge that an extended crossbow-hunting season would not have a negative impact on the resource, As You can see that WAS a major factor and WAS considered for over five years....

KDFWR recently proposed an extension of the crossbow-hunting season for whitetail deer and wild turkeys from the historical framework of a 10-day season to running at the same time as archery season .

*"In any state, that is what the LEGISLATURE is for."*

NOPE not in KY!

That is the sole JOB of the KDFWR, 

IOW 

WE have a much better system, in place, where instead of a "politician's whim", sound game management ALWAYS comes first, also WE are divided into 9 Districts and each one has their own District Comissioner, which takes hunter's input into consideration, they report to Dr. Jon Gassett( an actual wildlife biologist btw of which we have several others) fwiw...

Pay special note to the above, they were asked several times BY HUNTERS for and expanded season, they studied the possible effects(all of them), and ONLY then proposed this, did the biology "pay off"? Did the majority win? NO the minoirty, as it says above, lobbied legislators and ended the expansion, btw, this was only round one.....I have it all summed up, IF you want to go back and read more of this thread......fwiw

Your point of the deer belong to the state is lost on the fact with so many hunting private land, it doesn't matter, IF they say no hunting, that is "that"......WHICH is the sole reason for their input AS I already stated...

Hope it makes more sense now???


----------



## thesource

aceoky said:


> I do NOT "infer" anything, I have proven it and done so many,many times, *I* don't have to "infer" I have actual, factual proof , it's a FACT Those at least IN KY ARE in FACT a minority, and judging from other states that is likely the case there.......


Hmmmm. The "at least in KY" may be accurate. But since you don't state that every time, you are indeed inferring. In fact, you follow that statement with "judging from other states..."

Please provide us with your data from other states.

In fact, the last time Cornell (your pollsters of choice remember, lol) conducted a poll in NY, 87% said their satisfaction would greatly decrease if crossbows were allowed.

I have already explained to you that time after time, polls conducted on this site show that 2/3 or more are opposed to crossbows.

You are either ignorant of the truth or choosing not to tell the truth....which is it?


----------



## aceoky

thesource said:


> Squeeeeeaaaal!!!!
> 
> Keep squealing ace. You're only diggin it deeper.:tongue:


I'm NOT squealing, and see no reason to, nor do I expect that I will.......

Obviously it's beyond your ability to not be personal, NO big feat on the "net" btw.......wonder if you're nearly so"brave" in person??? 

I have to believ it's you and a few others "mission" to get as many threads locked that prove what you fail to understand or accept??? THAT must be "it"!

Otherwise you'd quit getting personal "on the net no less" "tough guy" NOT, and bring some actual factual data and facts to be discussed.......since you can't do that, all you have is to insult and hope it gets locked?? JUST like you guys have done to several GOOD threads already, that had much information in them.....

I feel sorry for anyone who can't debate with facts and feels the need to get personal instead....


----------



## thesource

thesource said:


> and YOU constantly try to infer that those who oppose crossbows do so because they refuse to share the woods.





aceoky said:


> That is the usual reason when they're finally honest, as has been proven here, "I'll share, as long as you do it MY way".....again.......facts are still facts, when YOUR side, admits to this, it's impossible to dispute..HOW many times on this thread alone have we heard about "overcrowding", "ruining the archery experience do to other hunters, Joeys, etc"???


ROFLMAO.

You are killing me! So the reason we cannot use facts to disprove your arguements is that even when you have hard data, from a source you rely and depend on, you still ignore it when it does not suit your cause and "interpret" it until it does.

What a joke!


----------



## thesource

aceoky said:


> Otherwise you'd quit getting personal "on the net no less" "tough guy" NOT, and bring some actual factual data and facts to be discussed.......


This page alone is LOADED with facts from me. You are the one interpreting the data about crossbow opponents motivations in total denial of the facts.

As far as the "tough guy" bullcrap - I'll e-mail you my address if you'd like to discuss this face to face. I don't like to be threatened, and I think its against the forum rules .....


----------



## aceoky

thesource said:


> Hmmmm. The "at least in KY" may be accurate. But since you don't state that every time, you are indeed inferring. In fact, you follow that statement with "judging from other states..."
> 
> Please provide us with your data from other states.
> 
> In fact, the last time Cornell (your pollsters of choice remember, lol) conducted a poll in NY, 87% said their satisfaction would greatly decrease if crossbows were allowed.
> 
> I have already explained to you that time after time, polls conducted on this site show that 2/3 or more are opposed to crossbows.
> 
> You are either ignorant of the truth or choosing not to tell the truth....which is it?


NO need to do that, VA, Tennessee, (shall I continue) PROVE it's happening AND the things you guys predict just DON"T happen......period.....AND They haven't in Ohio either after 30 years.....

The FACT; that the last Cornell survey was NOT for them, proves that OUR state does want them(the majority at least)......end of that .....as far as I'm concerned.....at least

WEll, since I've NEVER seen one of these polls here, I'll take your word for that fair enough??? Again, an archery forum poll proves exactly what?? THE minoirty of hunters are archery hunters,so what IF the majority of the minoriity oppose crossbows?? That says NOTHING about the majority of the majority of hunters nationwide or anywhere else.......SEE?

THAT is your biggest mistake, asking archery hunters(the minority of hunters) their feelings on any issue, fails to prove anything other than what the majority of the minority want.......NOT a slam on archery hunters, I'm one and very proud of that......still I know we ARE a minoirity, I accept that, and don't really care......BUT to think what WE say means "it", is "far-fetched" and gives NO clue as to what other hunters feel......

Agree or not, doesn't matter again another fact....


----------



## aceoky

thesource said:


> This page alone is LOADED with facts from me. You are the one interpreting the data about crossbow opponents motivations in total denial of the facts.
> 
> As far as the "tough guy" bullcrap - I'll e-mail you my address if you'd like to discuss this face to face. I don't like to be threatened, and I think its against the forum rules .....



See? There YOU go again! I did NOT threaten you in anyone's imagination(save possibly your own, which I doubt).....

YOU have called me names, said to "grow a set", and when I finally respond, YOU accuse me yet again........you're a real bundle of nerves aren't you???  .

AND my real point IS: IF you want to discuss the survey, let's focus on why it was done, and the facts that came out from that, and NOT focus on the ones that were the minority.....it was not after all, done to find out what a 'few" wanted or didn't want, but what the majority wanted........IF you can't see that fact, then there is NO point of my continuing to address you, in fact the "threat comment" went too far IMHO.......so that being said, I'm done with discussion of any of this with you....you certainly like to "dish it out", but taking ANY critisism is beyond you.....and that is ONE thing, accusing me of a threat is another one entirely!

Sorry you took it that way; I ONLY meant even a 10 year old could use these tactics......and I never issued any threat at all, again sorry you took it that way...

Good day to you sir......


----------



## thesource

aceoky said:


> NO need to do that, VA, Tennessee, (shall I continue) PROVE it's happening AND the things you guys predict just DON"T happen......period.....AND They haven't in Ohio either after 30 years.........


Please ... show me the data, ANY data, that would suggest that the resident sportsmen in VA, TN, or even OH stated that they were for xbows before they were forced upon them.

You can't. plain and simple. NO such data exists. You are misrepresenting the truth (which I have come to expect from crossbow proponents) to have us believe that its true. Its not.



aceoky said:


> The FACT; that the last Cornell survey was NOT for them, proves that OUR state does want them(the majority at least)......end of that .....as far as I'm concerned.....at least


I have no clue what you are trying to say, here. Even if I concede KY, what does this have to do with Cornell's NY survey, which is what we were talking about. 



aceoky said:


> WEll, since I've NEVER seen one of these polls here, I'll take your word for that fair enough???


Or you could do a search, if you were motivated. Lazy crossbower. 



aceoky said:


> Again, an archery forum poll proves exactly what?? THE minoirty of hunters are archery hunters,so what IF the majority of the minoriity oppose crossbows?? That says NOTHING about the majority of the majority of hunters nationwide or anywhere else.......SEE?....


This is YOUR mistake.

Why should archers allow non-archers to decide what is right or wrong for their bowseason?

How dare you suggest that there opinion will be in bowhunting's best interests?

It is up to bowhunters to protect bowhunting - from people like you.


----------



## aceoky

*KY Is NOT the only state where the antis are minoirty!*

From Viginia:

Q. DID THE CROSSBOW LICENSE MUCH DEBATE? 

A. Very little. During six public hearings across the state in April, only 77 participants had anything to say.

*Sixty-one favored crossbow hunting; 

16 disapproved. *

*DGIF said it received 2,047 emails and letters in favor 

and 161 in opposition. *



BEFORE THEY WERE LEGAL IN VA:

"Even as the vote on Virginia's proposal draws near, *vocal opposition has been surprisingly limited. *

Anti-crossbow threads on a Internet bulletin boards have allowed some bowhunters to vent, *but anti-crossbow sentiment was minimal at public meetings held to address the proposal."*

Just a couple "tidbits" I've managed to save during KY's struggles....

Sooooo KY is NOT alone in the majority wanting them, and the minority being the ones against the crossbow...


----------



## thesource

aceoky said:


> See? There YOU go again! I did NOT threaten you in anyone's imagination(save possibly your own, which I doubt).....
> 
> YOU have called me names, said to "grow a set", and when I finally respond, YOU accuse me yet again........you're a real bundle of nerves aren't you???  .
> 
> AND my real point IS: IF you want to discuss the survey, let's focus on why it was done, and the facts that came out from that, and NOT focus on the ones that were the minority.....it was not after all, done to find out what a 'few" wanted or didn't want, but what the majority wanted........IF you can't see that fact, then there is NO point of my continuing to address you, in fact the "threat comment" went too far IMHO.......so that being said, I'm done with discussion of any of this with you....you certainly like to "dish it out", but taking ANY critisism is beyond you.....and that is ONE thing, accusing me of a threat is another one entirely!
> 
> Sorry you took it that way; I ONLY meant even a 10 year old could use these tactics......and I never issued any threat at all, again sorry you took it that way...
> 
> Good day to you sir......


No need to apologize....but back up your rhetoric. You said exactly what you meant and meant what you said.

YOU are the one whining and sniveling about name-calling, personal attacks, and the like...not me. YOU are the one who wondered (aloud) if I would be as brave to discuss this in person.....not me.

I DO dish it out. But I CAN take it. I never complain about the verbal abuse heaped upon me by you and your colleagues....I figure its all part of the job of debunking crossbow myths and misrepresentations.:darkbeer:


----------



## aceoky

Source, just so you KNOW, I was looking those up on my hard drive and didn't even see your last post...fwiw

I do NOT make threats, and will not stand for being accused of doing so, not by you or anyone else, I do not intend therefore to answer you, address you or anything else further now that you have accused me of that, feel free to take that any which way you can.....

Being accused ONCE of a threat is more than enough for me, thank you very much, I will make certain that it doesn't happen twice however.........have a good one....


----------



## thesource

aceoky said:


> From Viginia:
> 
> Q. DID THE CROSSBOW LICENSE MUCH DEBATE?
> 
> A. Very little. During six public hearings across the state in April, only 77 participants had anything to say.
> 
> *Sixty-one favored crossbow hunting;
> 
> 16 disapproved. *
> 
> *DGIF said it received 2,047 emails and letters in favor
> 
> and 161 in opposition. *
> 
> 
> 
> BEFORE THEY WERE LEGAL IN VA:
> 
> "Even as the vote on Virginia's proposal draws near, *vocal opposition has been surprisingly limited. *
> 
> Anti-crossbow threads on a Internet bulletin boards have allowed some bowhunters to vent, *but anti-crossbow sentiment was minimal at public meetings held to address the proposal."*
> 
> Just a couple "tidbits" I've managed to save during KY's struggles....
> 
> Sooooo KY is NOT alone in the majority wanting them, and the minority being the ones against the crossbow...


LOL.

VA has 120,000 bowhunters. You want us to believe that 2,000 e-mails mean the majority of VA sportsmen supported crossbows?

You have GOT to be kidding. Show me the statewide survey.

What's that? There was no statewide survey? Oh, yea ... that's right. 

Truth is, VA had some dirty political dealing (like you enjoy discussing about KY, ad nauseum) that introduced crossbows in an emergency bill, or some such nonsense.

Yuck.


----------



## thesource

aceoky said:


> Source, just so you KNOW, I was looking those up on my hard drive and didn't even see your last post...fwiw
> 
> I do NOT make threats, and will not stand for being accused of doing so, not by you or anyone else, I do not intend therefore to answer you, address you or anything else further now that you have accused me of that, feel free to take that any which way you can.....
> 
> Being accused ONCE of a threat is more than enough for me, thank you very much, I will make certain that it doesn't happen twice however.........have a good one....


No problem.

Buh-bye!:darkbeer:


----------



## aceoky

Free Range said:


> You don’t have to mention names to attack, I know someone here that is a cry baby about the KY compromise. See I didn’t mention any names but that was an attack.
> 
> Cry baby, hardly, WE won , in case you've forgoten, I just happen to believe winning isn't everything HOW one wins means something to me at least...
> 
> 
> 
> Spin, spin, spin. Now you’re changing the time table, at first they didn’t know they were the minority, nor did anyone else, even after the first “poll” and vote it was a very narrow margin.
> 
> A WIN is a "win" period, by a narrow margin, ONE vote more = win.....what part of that is hard for you to comprehend, one more 1,000 more same end result, nice try.....but no sale
> 
> 
> And to tell the truth, there are those that are still not convinced.
> 
> NOT my problem
> 
> 
> Any survey can be worded or construed to any set of desired results. You have said that the game commission was for expansion, their bias could have been seeded in the survey. I’m not saying they told Cornell what results they wanted, but who’s idea was it to survey land owners, and all hunters, not just bow hunters? Bowhunters are the ones that will be the most affected. Could the DNR wanted those included because they thought it would help swing the results??? Maybe, I know it’s all conspiracy theory.
> 
> The Dept works for ALL hunters, not only any one group,(that includes bowhunters btw)...they represent ALL KY HUNTERS and their wishes.....(also fishers) nice try, mr. spin,spin,spin, THAT is what you're trying to do,
> I doubt it's working though, IF you lived and hunted here you'd far better understand our process, you don't, oh well, not my problem, fact IS; EVEN the bowhunters by A VAST MAJORITY were in SUPPORT of full expansion, thus your "spin" has no credibility whatever... AS for your "assumptions" on the survey it's posted for ALL to see, simple really to see, NOTHING is as you hope it was
> 
> 
> 
> If I miss lead you I’m sorry, here let me clear it up for you, I’m never in favor of compromise, I go into every battle, debate, game, or what have you to win, period. If how ever the opposition is strong enough that I can’t win then compromise is the next step. If you go into any endeavor with compromise in mind then you are weak and have already lost. Or you are being covert and know that if you compromise now there will other chances for full victory later, kind of like the ARA tactics.
> 
> I will "overlook the ARA comment" as "tongue in cheek", and leave it at that......WE were MORE concerned with UNITY than victory, AS YOU well know(or should) having been a part of the discussion for awhile......
> 
> 
> 
> Wrong again you didn’t have the upper hand, before the Cornell survey,
> YES we DID! The Dept's survey has NEVER been proven not to be accurate FIRST, secondly in case you've forgotten the season WAS ALREADY PASSED, prior to the Cornell survey....nice try yet again, still no sale.....the oppositon made a run to the legislators trying to convince them they wanted a compromise,WE tried they didn't.......period, WE didn't have to do that, WE agreed fwiw.......YOU sure have some funny "facts" on what happened and what didn't happen...btw
> 
> Which by your own account is when you were working for compromise.Already explained, hope you comprehend the facts of the matter
> 
> The first “poll”(what poll would this be???) and vote was close by your own admission, and after the Cornell survey you thought you had the bull by the horns and went for the throatTOTAL 100% Unfounded BS
> 
> . Remember me asking you after the survey if the DNR decided to split the season along the lines (%) of the survey results, give the x-bow 70% and leave 30% of the season as a bow only season?YES I remember, and do you remember the frustration by those who had TRIED to compromise with those SO CONVINCED THE OUTCOME OF THE SURVEY WOULD BE FOR THEM THEY REFUSED?????
> 
> 
> Remember that, and do you remember your answer? I do. It was no way Jose. Not Exactly, but I'll accept that
> 
> 
> ]This was before the so called dirty tricks,Wrong again, the "dirty tricks started with the FIRST expansion......the fact they continued and only got worse didn't help thier casue that much is true
> 
> and before SB2whatever. You only wanted compromise before you thought you had it all.NO IF that were true, WE would have went to the legislators and proven why WE were right......WE didn't want to do that, or involve them in any way........some would say that is OUR mistake, I wouldn't change it now or then, again Winning at all cost , is less important to ME than HOW one wins.....period
> 
> And now you are trying to say you offered up the olive branch, bulllllony.
> 
> YOU KNOW we did! OVER and OVER again.....dispute it if you want, but you're not the only one who can post what was said tread lightly here.....sound advice
> 
> 
> 
> And yet you persist in attacking and pledge to stop at nothing less then full expansion, what about the good of those who my not have any side to this.


NO , but I will say it again, EVERYTHING you just ACCUSED me and us of doing IS EXACTLY what they in fact did, ONLY when they KNEW they were going to see a full expansion did they THEN budge.....period.....and THAT IS the problem, so "funny" when you TRY to make it like that is what WE done,and how bad it is, but when the fact IS they did, it you seem to condone it???

I'm "attacking no one", I am stating for a fact exactly what occured and how after all of our shows of good faith we were bent over and had it handed to us, so much for UNITY and "good will" and "good faith"!

So let me make it 100% clear....

WE DID have the "upper hand" we held ALL the good cards, knowing that, WE in "good faith" and for the good of all; IOW WE decided to "do the right thing " and work for UNITY......and for that WE all got shafted!

NOW you want to say, we(and mostly me) are trying to "get even", you couldn't be further off base, however WE will NOW work for the majority's wishes, and following their example, as they said themselves so often lately, "let the chips fall where they may" , AND , "all is fair in love and WAR!!" (YES they used the WAR word against other hunters more than once and in a public forum!) Obviously every single one of "them" didn't do that, but you can grasp the point.....

THAT is another point, IF we are to "let things go", for the best interest of hunters, many , certain remarks would have been best left unsaid(to name just two, the war remark, and WE kept them crossbow hunters out of *our* pre- rut!).....

THAT makes who want to "get along" and unite??

WE took the "high road" in that , though we had EVERYTHING on our side, it was "wise" to allow some time to gather relevent KY data and go from there, based on that we'd then decide whether to ask for more or not, which we could still well do, however, WE won't accept being left out of the pre-rut......NOT gonna happen the mere fact it was only done for spite is enough, not to mention it's "not fair" to the youth, women, and senior hunters many of us, including myself have fought for this over.......period

That is not tryiing to "get even", it's only getting what we could have had (and less than we would have had, IF we'd chosen to NOT try to compromise)....and make NO mistake about it, we will get more, even the whole thing, IF we push for it, because, again EVERYTHING is on our side.....

YET we're NOT doing that, we do have a resoloution for the pre-rut, and I expect that it will happen, THEN, I'll be happy, and may let it go.......depending on what happens then.....

I already said it........WE offered from Oct 1-Dec31, HAD we gotten only that, even after all of this, we would have let it go....THEY knew this, and for spite did this to divide, it worked very well.....we'll see how long their fun lasts shall we.... I expect we'll get the above season without any "cut outs", then we can get real useful Ky data, that is relevent to our state!

THAT btw is what I wanted all along , a REAL chance at real KY data, that is relevent.....NOT the whole season, which is exactly why I was one of the first to say let's talk to them , and see what we can work out TOGETHER..... 

I think we can give up SOME of the season, as long as it's "fair" enough for US to get the real data we want to see, (which included the pre-rut, AND why we were cheated out of it, sad thing is, that would ONLY help US.....on kill numbers, but *I* don't want that advantage, I want "real and fair numbers" for every Ky hunter to evaluate......IF that makes me a "bad hunter" OR "bad for bow hunting " in anyone's mind, then I am sorry for that, however that is what I'm going to work towards, and very hard for it.......


----------



## aceoky

Doc, just for clearing this up somewhat, or at least trying to prove that it's not about "getting even", I'll let you in on something that I think you may even find interesting but doubt you'll like to hear.......

I've mentioned the LKS and how they work with the KDFWR pretty directly, in fact they have quite a bit of power, being so large and sportsmen oreineted.....

To keep it simple,and not bore anyone with too many details, suffice it to say, each club which belongs can submit proposals for votes, if passed they go to the League voted for the League delegates to vote on (two from each club IF the club has enough members)....

This year, the comment was made on a proposed YOUTH season, that it was for revenge on the crossbow issue!!!

NOW that is bad enough, but the fact is it was proposed last year prior to any of this 'mess", and almost passed!!

SO I hope that you can see the type of people we're "up against", even a YOUTH season proposal, must be related to US somehow(though NONE of the crossbow clubs or their supporters had anything do with it last year or this year, fact IS, the people who sponsered this, and drafted it have untouchable reputations on their YOUTH oreinted views and pratices!! 

To some, IOW, EVERYTHING , "must" be about the expansion, even if it costs our children, btw, IF you'd be interested in reading that thread let me know, I'll post the link to the forum here or in PM, whatever you say......


----------



## aceoky

Here is an intersting Ky quote from another forum, which I think "backs up" what I tried to explain to FR and others about how things in Ky work......

"*It's a matter of not understanding how the commission works and having an overinflated sense of self-worth. The commission works for the 1 million plus hunters, anglers and boaters in the state. *"

It's easy enough to see, that ONLY asking bowhunters on ANY survey would NOT work!


----------



## twogun

*Source, *(didn't want you to miss this)

You claim that you feel that the sportsman of each state should make the decisions concerning their hunting. You are also a stickler for following the letter of the law. Kentucky did two surveys, and both indicated that crossbow expansion was supported. The people fighting for the expansion played by the rules. So, do you agree that the will of the state's sportsman should be carried out as you have indicated in the past?



(Just in case you missed this the first time)


----------



## twogun

thesource said:


> This page alone is LOADED with facts from me. You are the one interpreting the data about crossbow opponents motivations in total denial of the facts.
> 
> As far as the "tough guy" bullcrap - I'll e-mail you my address if you'd like to discuss this face to face. I don't like to be threatened, and I think its against the forum rules .....



You parade around on an internet forum acting like a big mouthed bully. Having that pointed out is not a threat. Asking if you act like that in person is not a threat either. It is simply questioning your "tough guy" aproach. The fact that you take that as some kind of threat says a lot. You are exaggerating and distorting ace's words in an attempt to escalate the situation. Your trying to turn it into a threat and offering to e-mail your address to encourage an in person confrontation is deffinitely out of line.


----------



## 460461whatever

aceoky said:


> I feel sorry for anyone who can't debate with facts and feels the need to get personal instead....


Ace, I understand your frustration. Unfortunately, we may never hear a logical argument from some that may have a logical argument. It's one of the dynamics of a web forum that plays in here. You see, it takes less typing to name-call and insult than to lay out an argument filled with fact, figures, and statistics.:wink: Also, I do appreciate the effort you've put forth in this and many other threads.

Now, back to your response to my previous post, you implied the importance of landowner opinion. This trend is one of my battles. Conservation has become too political that the special interest of certain groups of people have become more important than the management of our resources.

Case in point: Pheasants - Much of our conservation dollars are spent to boost pheasant hunting when, in fact, they just another exotic species. This happens because wildlife departments are told to do this by a group called "pheasant hunters". Other exotics are allowed to be exterminated, e.g.: starlings and english house sparrows, and yet we pay the state to maintain a healthy population of other exotics. BTW, I love pheasant hunting, but I'd love to hunt native species, as in prairie chickens, if they could be brought back to this area.

In other words, you may think the Kentucky way is working just fine, but too much interference from nonprofessional wildlife managers will all come back to bite us all in the butt. Of course, Kentucky is not alone, and some politics must always remain in any government agency. But, we must restrain ourselves to keep our special interests out of their jobs.

This means spending our energy on educating the general public to get the true majority of each state to support your cause, if it's worth supporting. This in turn elects legislators that support that cause. Those legislators work with the professional game managers to make rules and programs that are the best for both, the people and the resources. So, let's all stop corrupting the system by building in our own short cuts and work with all the people so that they are more willing to accept any or all forms of hunting.


----------



## thesource

twogun said:


> *Source, *(didn't want you to miss this)
> 
> You claim that you feel that the sportsman of each state should make the decisions concerning their hunting. You are also a stickler for following the letter of the law. Kentucky did two surveys, and both indicated that crossbow expansion was supported. The people fighting for the expansion played by the rules. So, do you agree that the will of the state's sportsman should be carried out as you have indicated in the past?
> 
> (Just in case you missed this the first time)


Sure. I think it has been carried out with the compromise that they reached.

You can't rally say the people fighting for expansion played by the rules. They sure didn't the first time, which is why it was overturned a year ago.
I don't like the fact that you and other non-residents started the ruckus in KY, and escalated it with the formation of UCBK by stacking it with Canadians just to cancel the KBA's votes. That part was ugly, and certainly didn't represent the will of KY sportsmen.

I don't think that the landowners should be part of the process unless they are actually hunters themselves (considering their will is already expressed by their control over their property.) I think that the hunters' will is what matters. We could quibble about which hunters, etc.

All in all, though, everyone should admit that KY at least tried to find a way to gauge the will of its sportsmen, which is much more admirable than just forcing the crossbow on people like in some other states.


----------



## greenboy

the source--- tell me about this ny cornell study on crossbws, in nys like when it was done,what ???were asked, u brought it up,give a ny want a be crossbow man some info. by the way all my neighbors are for crossbow in archery season, they are farm land owners. also they hunt deer, every were i go people mosty do not care what a man uses as long respects the land an game acts properly.1 last ?? do u an fr go to [email protected] school to learn how to be a spoke person against crossbows in the usa, i could not stop myself on that last 1 Bob:darkbeer:


----------



## thesource

twogun said:


> You parade around on an internet forum acting like a big mouthed bully. Having that pointed out is not a threat. Asking if you act like that in person is not a threat either. It is simply questioning your "tough guy" aproach. The fact that you take that as some kind of threat says a lot. You are exaggerating and distorting ace's words in an attempt to escalate the situation. Your trying to turn it into a threat and offering to e-mail your address to encourage an in person confrontation is deffinitely out of line.


LOL. 
Do I come across as a big mouth bully? I guess I should apologize for that, it's certainly not my intent.

I have no problem with anyone asking me if I would be "brave enough to say that in person", but at the same time I realize the statement as a challenge, and a veiled threat.

Trust me. There is nothing I say on this board that I wouldn't say to anyone in person, and I would probably add some additional thoughts as well. That may make me opinionated, but it hardly makes me a bully.

It seems as though some crossbow advocates might be a touch too sensitive. It also seems some can dish it out but can't handle the return fire.

I fail to see that as my problem - I consider it their problem.


----------



## thesource

greenboy said:


> the source--- tell me about this ny cornell study on crossbws, in nys like when it was done,what ???were asked, u brought it up,give a ny want a be crossbow man some info. by the way all my neighbors are for crossbow in archery season, they are farm land owners. also they hunt deer, every were i go people mosty do not care what a man uses as long respects the land an game acts properly.1 last ?? do u an fr go to [email protected] school to learn how to be a spoke person against crossbows in the usa, i could not stop myself on that last 1 Bob:darkbeer:


Look it up yourself, greenboy. 

I highly doubt that all your neighbors are for crossbows in bowseason. None of mine are. They think that crossbows are cheating. 

P&Y school, that's funny. Here's a question for you....You are willing to declare the Pope&Young Club, with its rich history, its heritage, its decades of bowhunting leadership and protection, irrelevant just so you can be allowed to use a crossbow?

That seems pretty telling to me.


----------



## greenboy

SOURCE- [email protected] is irrelevant to me i am deerhunter no matter what,whatever i use to get my deer its my choice, i do not need the rich man club to speak for me i do not need a trophy on the wall , a trophy may be a 4 point taken with a longbow or a crossbow i hunt for my self an do not need there bs. lets not get off the cornell study that i think u are spining how old is it, if i were your nieghbors i would agree with u just to stop u talking about crossbows. nothing stays the same life changes, crossbow use may be 1 of these things crossbow in archery season in ny Bob


----------



## oldbhtrnewequip

*source*

*Source,

You said

No need to be condescending.

Would a 7mm mag in bowseason be cheating?
I'm pretty sure that most would agree it is....

You understand perfectly well why my neighbors consider it cheating....and why others would, as well.*

Okay... My apologies.

Let me answer your question. Yes a 7MM mag in bow season would be cheating. It would be cheating _other hunters_. It would also be dangerous and poaching and illegal.

But, no I don't understand whether your neighbors think it is the deer or the hunters that are being cheated. That is why I'm asking the questions.

*You said:
I think its obvious that nonhunters (my neighbors, anyway) feel that crossbows in bow season are cheating the deer. That means violating their idea of fair chase, although they may not be familiar to the concept.*

Different people can view the use of different weapons as cheating _the deer _or not. Different people can view the use of different weapons in the same season as cheating _other hunters_ or not. 

So the question is, do they feel if crossbows are being used during bow season, are the deer or hunters, or both being cheated? That leads to, if crossbows are used during crossbow season, are the deer being cheated or not?



*And now you are becoming QUITE condescending. You are generally one of the more reasonable pro-siders, so it surprises me a bit.*

My apologies. 

*You said.
Bowhunters are busy doing what bowhunters do during bowseason, trying to outwit whitetails on their own terms. Along comes those who want crossbows to make it easier to defeat the deer's defenses...and they consider that to be cheating.*

On whose terms? The deer's terms or the bowhunter's terms?
What is their opinion regarding the difference between compound and recurves? Aren't compounds "cheating?"

*I said
We agree. I think we also agree that we don't want anyone looking 'down' on what we do as not being ethical enough and not being fair chase enough. * 

*You said
You assume too much.*
You assume too much.

What am I assuming?

*You said
I firmly believe in high ethics and fair chase, I believe its pretty straightforward ...*

I believe in the same thing but it is NOT at all straightforward. We have a mixture of rules and regulations where we try to keep the "joey's" under control. But because of the fact that a lot of what we do with hunting is ethics based, we don't intuitively know, understand, or agree on what is right or wrong as a community. 

*You said
...and much easier to comprehend than the fencesitting lawbreakers lead you to believe, and actually think that P&Y rule's should be stiffened to exclude baiting and escape proof fencing.*

I agree to that....baiting an area inside escape proof fencing is hardly hunting.
But that's just me. Sounds a lot more like trapping....not that I have anything against trappers.

*I said
I think we agree that those who make it more fair for the deer, should be provided with more time or better time (rut). 
to hunt. Unless of course we decide to buy/use tink's in the middle of rut
because that defeats the deer's senses, and would be considered cheating.*

*You said
You want to outlaw Tink's during bowseason, but you are fine with stringguns in bowseason. Hmmmmm.*

If we argue that bowhunters should have the rut to themselves on the one hand because we're doing less to defeat the deer's senses, (making them come in closer and moving(sight)) and then turn around and use Tink's to lure the deer in (smell) at their most vulnerable time, its kind of like horse trading. Which removes the reasoning that bow season should be reserved for the rut.

*You said
You are smarter than that. Methods and practices are FAR different than equipment differences. You can try to pull it into play, but it washes out as a common denominator. *

It doesn't wash out as a common denominator if I happen to be of the opinion that using Tinks is...well....cheating. Do your neighbors think tinks is ok? I tell you what....as a kid I did a lot of stupid things based on the premise that I thought I was gonna get laid. That might still apply today :tongue: 

It a huge plus to get the deer to come to me vs. me going to the deer or knowing where the deer are going to be. Its a huge plus to me if I put some tinks down on the other side of an 12 inch tree so the deer will go to it and put that tree between me and his eyes leaving his chest exposed while I pull back. I just eliminated that sight disadvantage AND got him well within range.

*You said
Anyone, be it crossbow or bow, recurve or longbow or compound, can use scents, calls, doublebull blinds, treestands, decoys and the myriad of red herrings you try to employ to confuse the issue.*

I think that once you sit down and think this thing out a little you're gonna figure out that you've got your blinders on. 

Remember 

*you just said.
actually think that P&Y rule's should be stiffened to exclude baiting and escape proof fencing.*

Do you mean to say that I can bait by sense of smell as long a there is sex involved...but if it includes a follow up snack then that's a no no? Or did you mean baiting AND escape proof fencing simultaneously?

*You said
They cancel out. *
Ask yourself _"if they cancel out, then why is tinks okay, because we can all use it, but high fencing and baiting are not? We can all bait can't we?"_

We do not agree on this. Everyone has an individual sense of what is right and wrong, just like your neighbors. So we should allow for hunters to be self policing?

*You said
That leaves the original question about equipment differences.....*

So we disagree. Many things factor into a successful deer hunt. To take one thing and set it off to the side and say this is the only thing that is relatively important between hunters...*is unfair.*

*You said
Challenge (from a hunter's perspectiveness) is the same as "fairness" from my neighbors perspective.*

I agree on all levels. It is 'more' fair to a deer to attempt to take it down at close range at high noon in the middle of a field with 20 inch grass with the wind blowing straight from you to him. We don't ask everyone to do that though. Apparently Method and practice distinguish the aspect of fairness between hunter and prey, every bit a much, potentially, as equipment.
We allow self policing on method and practice. But not on equipment.
I fail to see the logic.

*You said
The bowhunting challenge is to take a deer on at close range and win (there is your competition.) *

Agreed

*Winning by making the rules easier is cheating. If one team only has to get 7 yards for a first down, or the net is dropped to 8' on one side of the court, one group tees off from the Ladies' tee while the rest must play from the tips ....*

Are we talking about cheating deer or cheating other hunters?

*You said
Awwww, you get the picture.*

I think so most times, but it is a complex picture and not at all simple and easy to understand. And it changes because of technology.


----------



## thesource

oldbhtrnewequip said:


> It a huge plus to get the deer to come to me vs. me going to the deer or knowing where the deer are going to be. Its a huge plus to me if I put some tinks down on the other side of an 12 inch tree so the deer will go to it and put that tree between me and his eyes leaving his chest exposed while I pull back. I just eliminated that sight disadvantage AND got him well within range.


Well, I understand the point you are trying to make, I just don't agree with it. Archers have been using scents and calls as part of their hunting tactics for _centuries_.

In addition, we are both old hands at this, and I'm sure you realize that calls and scents used improperly will frighten away more deer than they attract. Not to mention that crossbowers will employ the same tactics, regaining the additional advantage we are squabbling about in the first place.

Calls, scents, scentlok....there are 1000's of gimmicks that hunters can waste their money on if they feel inclined to. There are no guarantees that these things will help, which is totally different than the equipment issues we are discussing.

If you want to discuss the propriety or impropriety of hunter's accessories, I'm up for that. But we should start another thread, because that has nothing to do with traditional bows, bows, crossbows, or wheels. 

The pro crossbow tactic of trying to show technology as already over the top, so therefore we should allow even more advantages and go even further over the top, makes no sense to me.



oldbhtrnewequip said:


> Are we talking about cheating deer or cheating other hunters?


You seem to have made that case that both are true.....


----------



## thesource

greenboy said:


> lets not get off the cornell study that i think u are spining how old is it, if i were your nieghbors i would agree with u just to stop u talking about crossbows. nothing stays the same life changes, crossbow use may be 1 of these things crossbow in archery season in ny Bob


LOL.

I never actually applied a date to the study, so I don't think it can possibly be construed as "spinning." 

I believe all the crossbow bills in NY have been defeated already for this year.... I suppose you can try again next year.


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## greenboy

source- well if the crossbow bill is dead this year i have not heard about it,prove it, as far as i can find its in process nydec.commitee. but 1 thank u,for makeing me get involed an write these people an give my reasons to let crossbows in an i will not stop till it happens.to me if we can not get crossbow in ny, we should do away with compounds,sights,release,an only hunt with longbows,recurve fred bear way. thats the way i see it all u compounders are cheating to .dam do away with that range finder atv,fancy hunting outfits,sents. lets be fair to the deer,after the new bambe dvd hits bowhunting will be in for the fight of its life to save it Bob:darkbeer:


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## thesource

greenboy said:


> source- well if the crossbow bill is dead this year i have not heard about it,prove it, as far as i can find its in process nydec.commitee. but 1 thank u,for makeing me get involed an write these people an give my reasons to let crossbows in an i will not stop till it happens.to me if we can not get crossbow in ny, we should do away with compounds,sights,release,an only hunt with longbows,recurve fred bear way. thats the way i see it all u compounders are cheating to .dam do away with that range finder atv,fancy hunting outfits,sents. lets be fair to the deer,after the new bambe dvd hits bowhunting will be in for the fight of its life to save it Bob:darkbeer:


LOL.

You are a hoot, greenboy. Let me get this straight....correct me if I'm wrong, please....

Compounders are cheaters, so we should allow crossbows so they can be even bigger cheaters. Is that what you are trying to sell?


I thought you said you were a bowhunter....what's your setup? I'm having a difficult time believing you hunt with trad gear.


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## cynic

Now this thread is funny to hear the compounders worry about the tradtionals getting part of archery season with out them. Man this sounds like a great time to encourage xbows...come one come all I shoot them all I will have a place in every season.


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## aceoky

It was stated , that those "fighting for the crossbow expansion in Ky, didn't play fair the first time, why it was removed", first there was NO one fighting for it the first time.....so once again PURE BS! 

(notice they NEVER give proof when they make these accusations, just like the UCBK is FULL of Canadians, somehow they know more than the officers of the club??? Ask them for proof, as I've done, they say they "heard it" or some such, yeah that must make it true,and although, that is 100% false, WHY do they mention it, I'm betting EVERY bow club fighting expansion has many NR members???, but I digress.....sorry)

Here IS the proof......

1. Purpose The Kentucky Department of Fish and Wildlife Resources *(KDFWR) has received numerous requests over the past 5 years to extend the crossbow-hunting season.*

Additionally, the KDFWR recognizes a need to increase the harvest of whitetail deer in a large percentage of the state.

*In 2002, the KDFWR conducted a hunter survey that was mailed to 13,500 hunters in Kentucky – “What do you think about the use of crossbows during archery season?” 


Using the data from the survey and with the knowledge that an extended crossbow-hunting season would not have a negative impact on the resource, *

WHAT, They (KDFWR), USED DATA and THEN THEY  DECIDED to expand, where are those "so called" fighters for expansion NOW?? Simple WE don't exist YET....at this point


KDFWR recently proposed an extension of the crossbow-hunting season for whitetail deer and wild turkeys from the historical framework of a 10-day season to running at the same time as archery season (first Saturday in Sept. through the third Monday in Jan.).
OK, let's NOW take note of the facts thus far..........The KDFWR recived numerous requests for over 5 years.......(yeah, this was "sudden" and not asked for by anyone, but at NO time is there anyone "Fighting for This, at this time" as anyone can clearly see; A SURVEY WAS DONE, DATA FROM THAT THE KDFWR decides to expand the season........hmm, NOT what some want us to believe though is it??


A minority of hunters (KDFWR received only 22 written comments in opposition to the season) 

lobbied legislators to terminate the season.

THAT is where everything else, came FROM, the division, the, "sides of the issue", etc.etc.etc. AND exactly what divided some of the State's hunters..........SO, though they "spin" it to *try *to say it WAS US; the facts clearly show WHO exactly did what, (the minoirty) That is where the UCBK was "born", (although not "just yet", it was to "fight" the strong bow clubs who were trying to "force" their will upon all of us, and NO one was around to "counter that".....MOST hunters would agree, that keeps the "playing field" more level, but some continue to make unfounded accustions on issues they obviously have NO clues about.....including WHAT started this whole mess(proven above)......IT WAS..........

The opposition, (knowing they were the minority in this matter, later proven once again, by the Cornell survey)....

"who lobbied the legislature", to keep this "out", 

and it HAD nothing to do with anything other than a "wording techinicality", at that!!! (found "defeicent",) on a slight possiblity......some may not comprehend what was being done.....(which the opposition contended was misleading in the Posted Agenda of the Dept......it clearly said, it was a "crossbow survey study AND SEASON EXPANSION STUDY".......some thought this didn't explain that the season structure might change!!! ....(hey it worked) BUT it's not what some try to claim, and far from it, as usual, NO facts.....

..... thus they ASKED, for it to be "revisted", by this time there were some willing to fight for the KDFWR, and the job they'd done, when asked, we agreed to help work on the whole thing, and shortly thereafter to try to work on a compromise, for unity's sake......you know the rest of how that went!

So their were NO "sides" prior to the KDFWR, deciding to expand the season based upon DATA, and requests(nothing "new" here, exactly how we got our second ML season , which btw they also fought...as they do everything they don't personally want, no matter the rest of their fellow hunter's wishes.....ever matter

Just like they want everyone to believe the KDFWR couln't have went ahead with the season, but instead chose to do another survey, and try to make some happy, as we're finding out, that's impossible to do.......

So, I've proven, once again, the "spin" doesn't work, the facts as always dispute it, and the fact is clearly shown, there was NEVER "the first time" this pro-side "which didn't play fairly", the KDFWR done exactly what they're supposed to do, and have done many, many, many, times this time, a "few" with the help of lawyers NO doubt, challenged it and delayed, it, THAT is what did the rest, SO while they contend it's always been the PRO -side, that caused, the divisions, the facts clearly dispute that claim......thanks for letting me clear that up, as it really isn't "on topic", but is relevent, to the "no wheels" and primitive season discussion, and also proves what some will do and say to not admit the blame, rather cast it elsewhere, while the whole time doing much more of the same! Or to keep other from trying to enjoy what they love with the archery weapon(s) of their own choosing, some would much rather dictate to others what is allowed,and will if allowed, they'll do exactly that.....

After all in these very type discussions, how often do are we told" they are more than willing to join in , so long as they do it MY way" etc.etc.etc., 

I apolgize for this turning so much into a KY expansion thread, that was not my intention, but again, I'm trying to show, what has happened, on a simple matter, that the KDFWR themselves proposed, there were NO crossbow "groups, or clubs" pushing for this at that time(at least NONE that I'm aware, of, and I'd bet big, had there even been one WE would have all heard often and loud, thus I must submit they didn't have any part in this, at that time.....(the first expansion Round One)......again thanks for letting me share what WE in Ky have been through thus far on a "non-issue", it's been said by Dr. Gassett himself, this is only a "Social Issue", and I agree with that assessment, so much, it's not about anything else but a "few" wanting to dictate to the many on what they are allowed to choose to archery hunt in our great state, and I for one feel that is the real shame, that some are SO concerned with what other archery hunters choose to hunt with!

One more thing, if I may, 

What I really meant to convey, about the archery hunters(again I am one, have been for "awhile")....IS that , though I'm proud to be one, other hunter's have rights to, they pay most of the bills, to expect them to NOT have a say, first won't happen, and IF tried, would be 100% certain to get any changes "thrown out", at least in Ky where over 90% are primarily gun hunters( you leave out a majority like that, they WILL get upset, and who could blame them?), THEY pay most of the bills again, thus they're entitled to have a say, and they'd have a good legal claim, IF they chose to pursue that , NOT worth the risk, IMHO.....so for us to expect that ONLY archers, get to decide season changes, is very highly unlikely to ever happen unless our numbers grow to that rate......and with so much division, I just don't ever see that happening.....

Food for thought?


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## cynic

Good to see you dougK..I see Source is still at it. I really like to see his posts tho, it give me something to stir the pot on other sites. Thus far after reading all the posts again I have seen no real relevence on his part. Source glad to see you in good health.


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## aceoky

cynic said:


> Now this thread is funny to hear the compounders worry about the tradtionals getting part of archery season with out them. Man this sounds like a great time to encourage xbows...come one come all I shoot them all I will have a place in every season.


I agree, that it's "funny", at first glance, but after some time, around their "logic", one get's the idea, they so strongly think their way is the "only way", and any other way is "wrong", "cheating", "horning in", "unethical", "joey", and I've no doubt left several out, but, it's easy to see, that in their "thinking", they are so much superior and elite, that anyone else's Ideas, or thoughts are meaningless, much less deserve to be respected, or given serious condiderations.......sad really to see any group of hunters feel that way toward another group, but I always have to wonder why the gun hunter who chooses to use a 30/30, for the "challeng" doesn't EVER "talk down' to the guy with the 7mm mag! The latter certainly has a clear advantage, but the former accepts the fact HE limited himself, and done so by choice, AND has no desire to force that upon the latter!

THAT is a good and fair way of thinking(and not a bad analogy imho) :wink: , WHY archers can't understand that lesson and put it into play, I will never likely understand.....it is EXACTLY the same thing, NO one is forced to use a longbow for example, they choose to for their own reasons, same for a recurve, and a compound, but for some reason, the crossbow MUST be fought against, even with NO clear reason for it not being allowed, EVERY single thing they try to use, get's shot down, by facts and by data, yet they continue to claim such absurd things such as soon it will be gun season the whole archery season(yet in states the crossbow has been legal for DECADES this has NOT happened), they continue to "think" that people will buy the claim, even as absurd as it is...

I'm for the K.I.S.S. method, IF compound bows are allowed, then so should crossbows, there is simply not enough difference to allow one and exclude the others, (looks does NOT count btw), success rates, and those factors do matter, and most everyone knows archery isn't going to "wipe out" any deer herd, so it's a non-issue anyway.....

To get MORE archery hunters in the woods, is a "good thing", regardless of the "spin" of "overcrowding", if THEY want to see overcrowding, look no further than the gun season, yet so many continue to do it, and those who actually prefer, solitude, simply are willing to go further "off the beaten path", so even though "overcrowding" hasn't really happend anywhere the crossbow is allowed(statewide in any state period, a certan "patch of woods," perhaps, IF even that)......EVEN IF, it did happen, most experienced hunters KNOW the answer.....so again, it's a non-issue......

It always comes back to "sharing the woods", "sharing part of the solitude", newsflash, every archery hunter should get to experience that, NOT only the ones who do it YOUR way!......

No matter how many times I say we should UNITE and work together to oppose the Anti-Hunters, we still have this.....and it really, and honeslty makes no real or good sense, why not YOU hunt your way, let us hunt our way, and leave it at that? I firmly believe, there is plenty of time and room in archery season, at least in most states, for everyone to use whatever archery weapon they wish, and for ALL to be content, and enjoy a very awesome thing, archery hunting, up close and pesrsonal, THAT is what "it's all about"!! NOT weapon choice(s).......IMHO


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## greenboy

source-hi just for the record i have bowhunted 1974 till now. i started with a jennings mod. T, a great company an i as of late use a martan stick m10 till my injurys stop me from useing it, i also shoot a 40 lb browning recurve but my left elbow an rotor gives out. i have taken 2 bucks longbow,an a few with a compound. but as u know ny will not give me a break afther 30 years of buying a stamp, no drawlock or crossbow, when u get injured.or old its the &^&&^$%$# with u get a new thing to do, i am bitter the way they are treating older people i will be 52 this year maybe i will try fishing,turkey hunting. an i am not the only hunter that feels let down if we can not bowhunt why should anyone Bob:darkbeer:


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## greenboy

source- 1 thing that has me upset is this joeie talk, u all were new to the sport at 1 time. what ever the new person shoots, does it hurt to help someone an show some kindness did some one help u. crosbow,compound longbow its the right thing to do. Bob:darkbeer:


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## aceoky

I really hate to hear news like that greenboy, but I'm well aware that it does happen, and will never agree that it should, it's a real shame to love something and be forced to have to give it up. I hope soon, that will change for you and everyone who has been treated in a like manner!

Hang in there brother, I don't expect you'll have to wait too much longer!


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## aceoky

*Spin.......*

I've also been accused of making $$ for my support of crossbow expansion, in Ky, first (again) that is not true.....secondly, why is that (to them) even relevent, do those *organized bow groups *

fighting expansion work for free?? I seriously doubt it.....so why bring it up???

Again, I can't speak, for the others mentioned, but I know, the "deal", and why make unfounded allegations in the first place, especially when they are in no way relevent to anything??

Another "farce" they expound is: the majority of bowhunters don't want expansion; it's the crossbow manufactures and dealers pushing this.....REALLY???

Economics 101, folks, should tell you that if they're correct on any level, they can't say both!

Without a market of people wanting to buy and use the crossbows, there is no good economicly feasible reason for them to do so(which they haven't proven, btw.), so IF they're correct on the crossbow dealers etc. doing this, then the majority are NOT opposed, simple really.....:darkbeer: 

They wouldn't go in 'blind' and push for this, not knowing if there was a viable market, just good business sense, so IF they are indeed doing what they're being accused of(again far from proven, but proves what lengths they are willing to go, and accuse)....then there IS a market there for them......e.g. hunters wishing to buy and use their product! 

So I submit, at the very least, one is NOT true, either the dealers etc. are NOT doing this or the majority, do wish to buy and use their products......

Perhaps they're not correct on both issues? One thing is certain, they can't be correct on both, one disproves the other......:cocktail:

I think that is exactly why they wish to bring the $$ into this without saying how much $$ their members/officers/board/etc. are taking from the membership......they charge dues, wonder where it all goes?? It is my guess(but perhaps only a guess), that a 10 yr old club has more $$$ to "throw around" when compared to a "newer club", one has to ask the question, is it wise to throw bricks, when you , yourself, live in a glass house.....


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## thesource

greenboy said:


> source-hi just for the record i have bowhunted 1974 till now. i started with a jennings mod. T, a great company an i as of late use a martan stick m10 till my injurys stop me from useing it, i also shoot a 40 lb browning recurve but my left elbow an rotor gives out. i have taken 2 bucks longbow,an a few with a compound. but as u know ny will not give me a break afther 30 years of buying a stamp, no drawlock or crossbow, when u get injured.or old its the &^&&^$%$# with u get a new thing to do, i am bitter the way they are treating older people i will be 52 this year maybe i will try fishing,turkey hunting. an i am not the only hunter that feels let down if we can not bowhunt why should anyone Bob:darkbeer:


So you have hunted and kill deer with a compound before. Yet in this post, you say compounders are cheating. Are you calling yourself a cheater? 



greenboy said:


> if we can not get crossbow in ny, we should do away with compounds,sights,release,an only hunt with longbows,recurve fred bear way. thats the way i see it all u compounders are cheating to




Whatever. Its too bad that your elbow and shoulder prevent you from bowhunting....really. I know that NYB has a program to help physically challenged folks...have you checked into it?

By the way....I have been actively lobbying the state legislature for years to loosen the restrictions on physically challenged. But trying to get the crossbow legalized for everyone is absolutely KILLING any chances for it to be legalized for those who need it.

You are your own worst enemy.


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## thesource

greenboy said:


> source- 1 thing that has me upset is this joeie talk, u all were new to the sport at 1 time. what ever the new person shoots, does it hurt to help someone an show some kindness did some one help u. crosbow,compound longbow its the right thing to do. Bob:darkbeer:


Yea, well I didn't coin the term "Joey". That would be the term our moderater, Doctari, uses.

And it doesn't refer to new hunters, it refers to slob hunters.


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## thesource

aceoky said:


> but I always have to wonder why the gun hunter who chooses to use a 30/30, for the "challeng" doesn't EVER "talk down' to the guy with the 7mm mag! The latter certainly has a clear advantage, but the former accepts the fact HE limited himself, and done so by choice, AND has no desire to force that upon the latter!


How about if the 7mm mag guy was trying to use his weapon during MZ season? What if he wanted to use it in a slug only area?

It might be helpful if you compare apples to apples.



aceoky said:


> .it is EXACTLY the same thing, NO one is forced to use a longbow for example, they choose to for their own reasons, same for a recurve, and a compound, but for some reason, the crossbow MUST be fought against, even with NO clear reason for it not being allowed


Duh .... there is a VERY clear reason. In the VAST majority of states crossbows are ILLEGAL during bow season. It is not simply some caliber of centerfire that we are arguing about, it is a different weapon entirely. 

Demanding that crossbows be allowed into bowseason is no different than demanding that inline MZ be allowed during PA Flintlock Season....

Your analogy is flawed on many levels.




aceoky said:


> It always comes back to "sharing the woods", "sharing part of the solitude", newsflash, every archery hunter should get to experience that, NOT only the ones who do it YOUR way!......


Wow - a double falsehood!!!
You already know that the biggest reason that bowhunters oppose crossbows is they do not believe they are bows, but you ignore that, claim crossbows to be "archery" in spite of that data, and then claim that they are refusing to share the woods (spiting the very same data)!

A truly artistic bit of spinning....too bad everyone can see through it like a window. 



aceoky said:


> No matter how many times I say we should UNITE and work together to oppose the Anti-Hunters, we still have this.....


Maybe that's because noone cares what you say.


----------



## cynic

It seems that thru the years of Gov. Reps have been chosen, not by hunters but rather the non-hunting community and many of them have never been exposed to the differences in equipment and there uses. They have relied on what the few that have "buddied" up to them to get there insight (Bowhunting assoc., P&Y) which thru the years tainted the truth to promote there causes and beliefs. Now many of our Reps are seeing first hand the agenda of Bowhunters against the xbow. The message is clear GREED. Time and time again you hear My woods and My deer when talking against xbows in archery season. What I see about the adament bowhunters is they feel they are the Navy SEALS, Green BERET, Airborn RANGERS of the hunting world, The elite of all hunters. Then you read posts about ethical shot distances and deer running off wounded having to track and finding them coyote eaten. Then you see the elite of all bowhunters, The Trophy Deer bowhunter shown on television that took and made a bad shot but knows that the animal will expire rather than stay out in the woods to find it wait until the next day with sleepless night to go and find the TROPHY only to find a half eaten carcass of wasted meat, But look at this Rack it will make a fine addition to the trophy wall. A majestic animal reduced to a wall ornament, Is this what hunting ethics has become (retieving horns to mount) 
So now I ask myself what is the deal about carrying a bow that makes people feel like this, Does sitting in a stand,blind shooting an animal with a bow make them feel manly or primal? A bowhunter shoots a deer 20 yds that runs 30yds and falls is a hero and a great hunter with ethics, A bowhunter that shoots a deer at 20 yds that is never found is still an elite hunter with bad luck that day, but a xbow hunter is viewed totally different.
People need to wake up hunting with a bow does not make you elite and a cut above


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## cynic

Source you say compare apples to apples
Archery
Recurve to recurve
compound to compound
recurve to compound
xbow to xbow
xbow to compound
xbow to recurve

Firearm
Rimfire to rimfire
ML to ML
ML to centerfire(209 primer ignition)
ML to Slug gun
Centerfire to Centerfire
Centerfire to slug gun
Shotgun to shotgun

What are you wanting to compare? Source as I remember the pro xbow won the debate at this forum hands down because you nor the ones thinking like you could provide any data to back anti xbow way of thinking, yet you continue to badger in the dataless thoughts


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## thesource

cynic said:


> It seems that thru the years of Gov. Reps have been chosen, not by hunters but rather the non-hunting community and many of them have never been exposed to the differences in equipment and there uses. They have relied on what the few that have "buddied" up to them to get there insight (Bowhunting assoc., P&Y) which thru the years tainted the truth to promote there causes and beliefs. Now many of our Reps are seeing first hand the agenda of Bowhunters against the xbow. The message is clear GREED.


That's right, greed. But you have the wrong side. States are getting greedy for the $$$ they will get when they can sell an additional stamp, the crossbow stamp. Not to mention the kickbacks, like Horton and ODNR.




cynic said:


> Time and time again you hear My woods and My deer when talking against xbows in archery season. What I see about the adament bowhunters is they feel they are the Navy SEALS, Green BERET, Airborn RANGERS of the hunting world, The elite of all hunters.


Which is it? Is it greed or elitism....what is your flavor of the day? 



cynic said:


> Then you read posts about ethical shot distances and deer running off wounded having to track and finding them coyote eaten. Then you see the elite of all bowhunters, The Trophy Deer bowhunter shown on television that took and made a bad shot but knows that the animal will expire rather than stay out in the woods to find it wait until the next day with sleepless night to go and find the TROPHY only to find a half eaten carcass of wasted meat, But look at this Rack it will make a fine addition to the trophy wall. A majestic animal reduced to a wall ornament, Is this what hunting ethics has become (retieving horns to mount)
> So now I ask myself what is the deal about carrying a bow that makes people feel like this, Does sitting in a stand,blind shooting an animal with a bow make them feel manly or primal? A bowhunter shoots a deer 20 yds that runs 30yds and falls is a hero and a great hunter with ethics, A bowhunter that shoots a deer at 20 yds that is never found is still an elite hunter with bad luck that day, but a xbow hunter is viewed totally different.
> People need to wake up hunting with a bow does not make you elite and a cut above


All of the unsavory things you project onto bowhunters will happen with stringgunners, too. My personal opinion is that it will happen more frequently, because I believe that the more dedicated hunters are already bowhunting and a disproportionate number of yahoos are the ones waithing for the crossbow. What about the yahoos you mention above? - again, IMO they will be the ones who switch to xbows...and still do the same stupid things.


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## thesource

cynic said:


> Source you say compare apples to apples
> Archery
> Recurve to recurve
> compound to compound
> recurve to compound
> xbow to xbow
> xbow to compound
> xbow to recurve
> 
> Firearm
> Rimfire to rimfire
> ML to ML
> ML to centerfire(209 primer ignition)
> ML to Slug gun
> Centerfire to Centerfire
> Centerfire to slug gun
> Shotgun to shotgun
> 
> What are you wanting to compare?


Play cute all you want - you understand fully what I am saying.

Both the big7 and 30-30 are centerfires, and legal in gun season. 

Both a recurve and a compound are bows, and legal in bowseason in all 50 states. Crossbows, obviously, are NOT.

Now, if you want to discuss why or why not we should allow centerfires into seasons that they do not currently belong, than we can use Aceoky's lame analogy....is that what you would like to try and do?


----------



## thesource

aceoky said:


> It was stated , that those "fighting for the crossbow expansion in Ky, didn't play fair the first time, why it was removed", first there was NO one fighting for it the first time.....so once again PURE BS!
> 
> (notice they NEVER give proof when they make these accusations, just like the UCBK is FULL of Canadians, somehow they know more than the officers of the club??? Ask them for proof, as I've done, they say they "heard it" or some such, yeah that must make it true,and although, that is 100% false, WHY do they mention it, I'm betting EVERY bow club fighting expansion has many NR members???, but I digress.....sorry)


The whole UCBK thing played out very visably on this site, and others. With your boy Willie orchestrating and broadcasting the play by play, including how many members were needed to achieve the goal of cancelling out the UBK and a near daily progress report. One needed only to visit the Excalibur forum to see the myriad of non-residents and aliens joining UCBK to allow them their seat at the table. 

So much for your grass roots movement - it was all dirty.

It really doesn't matter how many NR members there are today. It only mattered that you get enough members then to cancel out the UBK votes. The end justified the means for you then, but is shameful nonethe less.

You (crossbowers) cheated to get what you wanted.


----------



## cynic

What I think the problem hear is, most of you that think that your are elite bowhunters should be playing golf or tennis. I like the ones that understand that they are hunters, hunting with a bow and that not all bows look alike or shoot alike. If you remember I posted a pic shooting a bow with my teeth in the debate, what happened your side said it wasn't one handed. Now let me jog your memory. It was said that the xbow could be shot one handed but a cbow couldn't.. Yea there is a difference in the 2 one shoot verticle the other is horizontal. If you take away the inhancements Sights rest, peeps, both will be shot from instinct. You should not talk about the xbow as it is apparent that you know nothing about them other than what you see in the cabelas wish book..


----------



## thesource

Grade schoolers would look at a bow and crossbow on the table and correctly identify what each one is.

Why can't you?


----------



## cynic

You are so lame..These days a grade schooler would not even know they existed, but can name most pistol calibers, models of handguns, and most concealed gun in schools and which student carries it..Now do you really have something relevent if not I am going to have an intellegent arguement with my 7yr old.

I have figured out what the problem is...When you talk about the *recurve bow *it is two words when you talk about *compound bows* it is 2 words but when you talk about *crossbows* it is only 1 word and they feel *more* is better.
*More* hunting days
*More* woods to themselves.
*More* deer for them to shoot in their woods
*More* words in the description of their hunting utensil


----------



## thesource

cynic said:


> Now do you really have something relevent if not I am going to have an intellegent arguement with my 7yr old.


LOL - It is probably best that you stick with conversations at your own level. Maybe you can actually win an arguement with a 7 year old.


----------



## cynic

Yea ur right as it appears that you have not risen to his level. He also knows when he is beat and that is something that you have as of yet been able to realize. the really sad part is that when comparing the 2 of you he still comes out on top


----------



## oldbhtrnewequip

*You said
Well, I understand the point you are trying to make, I just don't agree with it. * 

I'm trying to make a lot of points here Source. Its fine for you to disagree on any one or all of 'em. I don't expect us to agree on everything. I do perceive we agree on some. I'm trying to get to agree on one thing that could be used to isolate equipment for the creation of a primitive season. Why have a primitive season? Since we agree that it is sport both man-man and man-nature, we 'can' do something to level the playing field, in the use of older technology that allow us to hunt. We can limit the equipment in use as a result of technological advancement, to create a more challenging primitive season that reward both animal and man. 

If someone believes hunting is a sport that it is man to man only, that is fine.
If someone believes that hunting is a sport that is man to nature only, that is also fine. Any way that you look at it, on a competitive basis, we 'could' define a limiting season, let's call it primitive, where we create competition and challenge, however you define sport, or hunting, or blood sport.

*You said
Archers have been using scents and calls as part of their hunting tactics for centuries.*

But they haven't been using wheels for centuries. I just tried to pick ONE thing that we could all agree was THE technical advancement and create a primitive season by blocking it out. The fact that the wheel wasn't added to archery equipment for a long long time can also be viewed as a reason it should excluded as primitive equipment. 

Methods and practices use equipment. I could agree that we could/should allow and disallow additional things, besides equipment, like calls and scents during primitive season. I could agree that we include anything that isn't on your body when you were born, as an equipment item, and then start allowing items. We have to start somewhere if we're going to say that we should regulate the degree of challenge for a primitive season, based on equipment? Where should we start Source?

Just because something has been practiced, be it centuries or 5 minutes, doesn't define it is "sporting." We agree that scents reduce challenge, but if I choose to not use them, because of my perception of ethics, I increase my challenge. Should I impose that on everyone for all seasons or just be self limiting? 

*You said
In addition, we are both old hands at this, and I'm sure you realize that calls and scents used improperly will frighten away more deer than they attract. * 

Absolutely, but when used in the hands of a skilled person, they change the game and bring in the deer. Some will argue against the use of a fawn bleat base on ethical considerations. Some, if not most people view 'motherhood' and "childhood" as something very special, and to leave it untouched.
Now you bring the two together... a doe to a fawn bleat....to what purpose? I'm not saying I'm against anyone using a fawn bleat. I'm saying that I won't, because of my sense of ethics. 

It make absolute sense. How many guys won't take 'female' does out of a sense of sexual discrimination. How many guys pass on yearlings? How many guys pass on does that are still weaning yearling?

*You said
Not to mention that crossbowers will employ the same tactics, regaining the additional advantage we are squabbling about in the first place.*

Not true...read above. Some will but not all. I'll carry a grunt tube but not a fawn bleat. 

*You said:
Calls, scents, scentlok....there are 1000's of gimmicks that hunters can waste their money on if they feel inclined to. There are no guarantees that these things will help,,,,* 

If they were all gimmicks, and had no redeeming value to the hunter, they would quickly go out of business, based on the average age of the bowhunter. Do you agree that people gravitate towards using equipment, properly, to increase their 'success?' Should people define successs in their own ways, or should we all have to agree on what constitutes a win in our definition of this 'sport?'

*You said
...which is totally different than the equipment issues we are discussing.*

I disagree. Its all wrapped up together. You have to learn the fieldcraft of hunting just like you have to learn how to shoot any kind of bow, to be successful. You can't say its all about the bow. I'll take that back. You can...a an individual. I'll suggest that the majority of 'hunters' see everything that we use, know, and do as what constitutes the hunting experience.

*You said
If you want to discuss the propriety or impropriety of hunter's accessories, I'm up for that. But we should start another thread, because that has nothing to do with traditional bows, bows, crossbows, or wheels.* 

Definitely later, but right now I want to discuss this thread, of whether we should have a primitive season or not, based on the use of a wheel. Its about "sport", technology advancement, and preservation. If you don't want to vote. Please explain why. Otherwise I can only assume...(as I already have.) I believe I stated it as an assumption as well.

The discussion of the use of a crossbow or not, is a sidebar discussion. We don't have to make every discussion we have relate to crossbows. Is it related? Yes...is it the main element? Not what I started, but certainly what it has turned into. Let's get back to the issue.

If you were to say that we should have a primitive season, based on one other thing as the most defining element, other than the wheel, what would it be and why would it be 'more' primitive than the wheel?

*You said
The pro crossbow tactic of trying to show technology as already over the top, so therefore we should allow even more advantages and go even further over the top, makes no sense to me.*

Forget about crossbows for a moment. Its one small part of the equation, just like everything else. It is not THE equation.

I'm acknowledging that technology is changing our sport. I believe that all new technology isn't bad, just because it is new. I believe we can do better than the "good old days", and that we have our slot in the time of humanity to change things for the better. I don't believe that this is the way that we must/should continue to do things because "that's the way they've always been done."

At the same time, I believe we need to continue to embrace the good part of our history and heritage so that we have a sense of our ancestors & traditions and what they were about. We can do that through practice instead of purely reading about it in history books and museums. 

I believe that the age of a piece of technology, or a practice, has nothing to do with its ethical application. I believe that some practices, no matter how old, are ethically questionable, and when not embraced through law can be embraced by individuals, through self policing. 

I believe that hunting 'is' a sport both man to man and man to nature, and no matter how much we try to eliminate the man to man piece, some of it resides. Elimination of it is a personal choice. That has an influence on our personal and community acceptance of technology and evolution. Neither of which we're going to stop. We get to control one and influence the other.

I believe that hunting technology is already over the top to almost all hunters, in varying degrees. I believe we can't freeze time but can preserve it, through the introduction of a primitive season.

Should a primitive season be established?


----------



## cynic

I voted yes, Reason being we all have moved from the original form based on technology. Archery and muzzleloaders were primitive now it is no where near that. I see that most archers are against that, Why..IMO it is because it would be too hard for them to learn how to shoot wheeless, they would no longer have the advantages of speed,sights, releases not to mention distance. They are afraid that they would be even less successfull.


----------



## cynic

Really it boils down to 1 thing ease of use..Most bowhunters started bowhunting after the conception of the compound they came in on the easy side now they are worried that people will be using what in their minds is something even easier. Most have not ever hunted with a recurve or xbow in order to make a comparison. When used proficiently and properly each has its benefits and advantages


----------



## cynic

DougK said:


> To see how wacko Source is...and obsessed..
> 
> he has 1740+ posts since May of last year (his first year) on xbows and how people should participate in a recreational season..


Something even bigger he has 1 more than you, the difference is none of his warrant or have any merit. He is a numbers guy maybe someone should give him a cookie


----------



## cynic

It's funny you mention centerfire in ML there is another technological change. Hunters have allowed for The smokeless Savage 10 MLII Thompson, Knight 209 primers, shooting 200yd shots..Why the problem with xbows in archery? If you stuff it in the barrell it is a ML. If it shoots off of a string it is a bow.


----------



## cynic

I was thinking of how to use Source logic. First we must think of school and grade advancement
First thru 6th grade will be used for gun hunters. The more game you take will make you progress. 2 deer per season and you skip a grade
6th - 12th will be for Xbows and Compounds any 2 kills in consecutive years promotes you to the next grade as wells as 2 in same season
Once graduation is achieved all big game must be taken with a wheelless bow for the next 4yrs or four kills. Once you have done this you will have proven yourself as a hunter and can hunt with any legal weapon of choice during that weapons given season.

Only 2 seasons will be needed Archery and gun


----------



## aceoky

cynic said:


> It's funny you mention centerfire in ML there is another technological change. Hunters have allowed for The smokeless Savage 10 MLII Thompson, Knight 209 primers, shooting 200yd shots..Why the problem with xbows in archery? If you stuff it in the barrell it is a ML. If it shoots off of a string it is a bow.


EXACTLY!

Now back to my analogy, they are both centerfire rifles, both allowed if either is, though one(the 7mm mag), has a CLEAR advantage, much more so than any percieved advantage of the crossbow, anyone who disputes that hasn't compared the two, thus, it IS *an apples to apples *comparison, that fits right into the argument of the "crossbow's advantage" over other archery equiptment, even if true(which I don't think it is ..fwiw,), you still don't find the 30/30 hunter trying to dictate to other rifle hunters to do it the "hard way", or not at all, they accept that some people are just plain different, and embrace the brotherhoood/sisterhood, and let petty differences, such as choice of weapon, "go".....

Based on that and similar issues, I have to believe, that MOST hunters don't really have any problem with what other hunters choose to us, so long as they are out and hunting, for the experience....sure some do, but I've notice, that it's only the same few, on several different forums, spouting the same absurd claims, MOST don't seem to worry about it, and if they actually do, are not making any noise, thus I'd guess, it's not on the "top of their list" of things to be concerned about, though many WILL, post about the Anti-Hunters and what they ARE doing and trying to do, to all of us....

THAT is where we ALL need to focus, our united attention, and it is very hard indeed to unite, when some are saying that other hunters are "second class"(and without even knowing them at all, but simply based upon their archery weapon of choice)...THEY are the enemies, those very anti hunting groups who have made it known, their number one priortity is to end all bowhunting nationwide, IF they succeed, we'll have MUCH bigger problems, than what other hunters choose to hunt with.......count on that....

About the club membership, to submit, that anything was "cheating, or "dirty" is absurd, I just visted several, bow hunting member's sites, they ALL were asking for people to join, and NOT one of them, had any residency requirements that I found!

NOW in Ky, we were "bombarded", with bow groups from all over the country fighting,to say,(yes even a couple of Canadian groups) that we "allowed", some from elsewhere to join, is pure hypocrisy, at it's "best", how many non resident members does P&Y have? 

I could go on, but obviously, the accusation, that some members were not Ky residents has NO bearing on anything, and is hardly "cheating or dirty" (even though their "facts" are very incorrect, at best......)


----------



## aceoky

cynic said:


> Really it boils down to 1 thing ease of use..Most bowhunters started bowhunting after the conception of the compound they came in on the easy side now they are worried that people will be using what in their minds is something even easier. Most have not ever hunted with a recurve or xbow in order to make a comparison. When used proficiently and properly each has its benefits and advantages


Great points!

And just begs the question: WHY is easier " a bad thing"??

Microwave ovens are "easier", should we therefore NOT allow their use? IF so, maybe we should require everyone to cook outside over an "open fire", after all that would be "more traditional".... 

For some "doing it the hard way", is a challenge, and that is a "good thing"......for THEM, to insist we ALL do things that way, is not in my view(though I personally do bowhunt in "sort of hard ways", from the ground, etc..MY choice, and I don't expect everyone to HAVE to do it "my way", )

THAT is the difference, I think, some are happy to limit ONLY themselves , a few, however think we ALL should have FORCED limits, placed upon everyone, to "limit" who will be "out there", and that is not in my view good for any of us or our future.....(just my opinion fwiw).....

I just have to think, there is plenty of season, and game to "go around", at least in most places, and then there is simply NO good reason to be concerned with what Bob, Sue, or "Little John" is using........There ARE much bigger issues, for us to use our "collective energies" upon......


----------



## aceoky

Say it isn't so, "bowhunting clubs and orgs", allow Canadian memberships!:darkbeer: 

Well, I guess it's only a point of interest though, when a newly formed club, gets it's membership from those who join of their own free will, and some are Canadian?? Still, it's hypocrisy, at it's best, I don't KNOW any hunting type clubs, that turn down members based upon where they live; so it's obviious to most , another feeble attempt to accuse of "cheating" , when it's common, since if their elite, and so special orgs and clubs do the same exact thing, it's not very well, cheating or "dirty"....now is it? :cocktail: (and IF it is, then it works both directions NOT only on us)

Thanks for letting us all know that, I appreciate it very much!

And for the record, yes Willie is an Indiana resident, but he also DOES hunt Ky annually, we have some pictures in fact of his turkey harvest this year(and for several years including deer from both states).. in both Ky and Indiana, so where he live is less important than where he hunts in my view, he has every right to work for what he beleives in, when he actually hunts in that state on a regular basis......so bringing him into the discussion I find in poor taste EVEN though, it did nothing to help make any case.....none, nadda, zilch, zip, 0.......as usual


----------



## aceoky

*Pope and Young*

Membership 
The Pope and Young Club is a membership based organization of dedicated bowhunters and conservationists. There are three levels of membership: Associate, Regular, and Senior. All new members must join the Club as an Associate.

*The only requirement to join *as an Associate Member is to be a bowhunter and have pursued the challenge long enough to have harvested at least one adult North American big game animal with the bow and arrow (not necessarily of record class size). 

http://www.pope-young.org/membership.asp


______________________________________________
Imagine that, the ONLY requirement, guess that means 10,000 Canadians or Russians, or anyone else could join, and it's "OK".....  

IF they join the club of their own free will.......funny though, HOW that is trying to be made an issue on the UCBK! ukey: 

I could go on and continue to prove the obvious, but I think the point is very clear, here, again , it's ONLY OK, IF you do it MY way.....


----------



## aceoky

Not a "bad idea", DougK; but after seeing their mission statement, position on crossbows, and their "unfair in my view" opinions on the disabled archer, *I* don't have the stomach for joining or wishing to help them in any way(or to appear that I am)....IOW they oppose much too much of what *I* believe in, though, it might serve them right! 

Since their aren't many of us, according to a "few", it may prove a point of what most hunters feeling really are??:darkbeer:


----------



## thesource

DougK said:


> He argues xbows are different than compounds...so what? The kill ratios are exactly the same-that is not something that would be if we allowed centerfires to mix with MLs.


:lie: :lie: :lie: :lie: 


Beautiful. Another crossbower caught in the ugly web of lies that they weave.

VA crossbow hunters had a higher harvest rate than bowhunters - and they were almost all crossbow rookies (except for the physically challenged, I suppose.)


----------



## thesource

aceoky said:


> Membership
> The Pope and Young Club is a membership based organization of dedicated bowhunters and conservationists. There are three levels of membership: Associate, Regular, and Senior. All new members must join the Club as an Associate.
> 
> *The only requirement to join *as an Associate Member is to be a bowhunter and have pursued the challenge long enough to have harvested at least one adult North American big game animal with the bow and arrow (not necessarily of record class size).
> 
> http://www.pope-young.org/membership.asp
> 
> ______________________________________________
> Imagine that, the ONLY requirement, guess that means 10,000 Canadians or Russians, or anyone else could join, and it's "OK".....
> 
> IF they join the club of their own free will.......funny though, HOW that is trying to be made an issue on the UCBK! ukey:
> 
> I could go on and continue to prove the obvious, but I think the point is very clear, here, again , it's ONLY OK, IF you do it MY way.....


LOL

Yea, cause the premier organization in all of bowhunting has anything to do with your pissant crossbow club. 
(By the way, it says its a NORTH AMERICAN club. pssst - Canada is included in North America....*DUH!)*

No - the facts are what they are. Willie RECRUITED candians and non-residents to even allow your silly club to form.

Very slimy, without a doubt. But about what I might expect, considering....


----------



## cynic

Right, a premier organization that accepts changes only to gain revenue. An organization that changes the Elite standards so that people that can't make the grade will still join with a dreaded * by there name. How do people still think of that organization as elite and hold them in high esteem. When more archers are using xbows P&Y will have a category for them so they can get what,,,more money..I think of that elite group much in the same way as I think of QDMA..both need to be flushed IMO


----------



## cynic

Many people on here use P&Y as a devine entity and a higher grade of hunting. Plz everyone that is a member post your membership certificate. I am curious as to how many that hide behind the P&Y standards are supporting members and have an animal in the elustrious scrolls of achievement. Source I am sure yours will be the first


----------



## thesource

oldbhtrnewequip said:


> Forget about crossbows for a moment. Its one small part of the equation, just like everything else. It is not THE equation.
> 
> I'm acknowledging that technology is changing our sport. I believe that all new technology isn't bad, just because it is new. I believe we can do better than the "good old days", and that we have our slot in the time of humanity to change things for the better. I don't believe that this is the way that we must/should continue to do things because "that's the way they've always been done."
> 
> At the same time, I believe we need to continue to embrace the good part of our history and heritage so that we have a sense of our ancestors & traditions and what they were about. We can do that through practice instead of purely reading about it in history books and museums.
> 
> I believe that the age of a piece of technology, or a practice, has nothing to do with its ethical application. I believe that some practices, no matter how old, are ethically questionable, and when not embraced through law can be embraced by individuals, through self policing.
> 
> I believe that hunting 'is' a sport both man to man and man to nature, and no matter how much we try to eliminate the man to man piece, some of it resides. Elimination of it is a personal choice. That has an influence on our personal and community acceptance of technology and evolution. Neither of which we're going to stop. We get to control one and influence the other.
> 
> I believe that hunting technology is already over the top to almost all hunters, in varying degrees. I believe we can't freeze time but can preserve it, through the introduction of a primitive season.
> 
> Should a primitive season be established?


I would have no problem with it, but I think its unrealistic to discuss removing compounds from existing bowseasons. They are bows, after all.

I don't believe for a second you will "forget about crossbows for a moment."

If you succeed in getting folks to agree to wheelless, you will spring Excaliburs on them like a steel trap.....

Tell you what. We can include crossbows in your theoretical wheeless season if they are truly primitive. Wood and iron, no scopes...in fact, no sights.

Let's see how that flies.


----------



## twogun

Source,



> Sure. I think it has been carried out with the compromise that they reached.


Wrong! The survey indicated that the sportsman of KY were in favor of FULL expansion not some compromise. Are you a man of your word or not? You have stated several times that you believe that the decision should be made by the sportsman of the state in question.



> You can't rally say the people fighting for expansion played by the rules. They sure didn't the first time, which is why it was overturned a year ago.
> *I don't like the fact that you and other non-residents started the ruckus in KY,* and escalated it with the formation of UCBK by stacking it with Canadians just to cancel the KBA's votes. That part was ugly, and certainly didn't represent the will of KY sportsmen.


Intentionally spreading misinformation is lying. I've pointed this out to you already on this thread, yet you continue. I guess the truth really doesn't matter to you.



> I don't think that the landowners should be part of the process unless they are actually hunters themselves (considering their will is already expressed by their control over their property.) I think that the hunters' will is what matters. We could quibble about which hunters, etc.


According to the survey, 90% of the hunters hunt on private land. The only land owners who were surveyed were those with 10 or more acres *AND* who allowed hunting on their property. It makes perfect sense to consider the opinions of the people who allow 90% of the hunters access to their lands.



> All in all, though, everyone should admit that KY at least tried to find a way to gauge the will of its sportsmen, which is much more admirable than just forcing the crossbow on people like in some other states.



More anti-crossbow spin. Noone is forced to use a crossbow. No land owners are forced to allow hunters to use crossbows on their land. Noone is forced to do anything.


----------



## thesource

twogun said:


> Source,
> 
> 
> _Quote:
> Sure. I think it has been carried out with the compromise that they reached. _
> Wrong! The survey indicated that the sportsman of KY were in favor of FULL expansion not some compromise. Are you a man of your word or not? You have stated several times that you believe that the decision should be made by the sportsman of the state in question.


I have noted my displeasure with adding landowners to the mix, but I have also noted that I have no problem with expansion. The sportsmen of KY will figure it out - looks like they already did to me.



twogun said:


> _Quote:
> You can't rally say the people fighting for expansion played by the rules. They sure didn't the first time, which is why it was overturned a year ago.
> I don't like the fact that you and other non-residents started the ruckus in KY, and escalated it with the formation of UCBK by stacking it with Canadians just to cancel the KBA's votes. That part was ugly, and certainly didn't represent the will of KY sportsmen. _
> 
> Intentionally spreading misinformation is lying. I've pointed this out to you already on this thread, yet you continue. I guess the truth really doesn't matter to you.


Which part is misinformation, Twogun? By the way, if that is the working definition of liar, I think you are a liar, too then, fwiw. 



twogun said:


> _Quote:
> I don't think that the landowners should be part of the process unless they are actually hunters themselves (considering their will is already expressed by their control over their property.) I think that the hunters' will is what matters. We could quibble about which hunters, etc. _
> 
> According to the survey, 90% of the hunters hunt on private land. The only land owners who were surveyed were those with 10 or more acres *AND* who allowed hunting on their property. It makes perfect sense to consider the opinions of the people who allow 90% of the hunters access to their lands.


I think not. They can already express their opinions by posting and whatever rules they feel are needed. (like the landowners I have convinced to post their 2300 acres "NO CROSSBOWS" should they ever become legal in NY...lol).

No - I said the will of the SPORTSMEN.....mr. spin.



twogun said:


> _Quote:
> All in all, though, everyone should admit that KY at least tried to find a way to gauge the will of its sportsmen, which is much more admirable than just forcing the crossbow on people like in some other states. _
> 
> More anti-crossbow spin. Noone is forced to use a crossbow. No land owners are forced to allow hunters to use crossbows on their land. Noone is forced to do anything.


Wrong. Bowhunters in AL, TN, and VA (for example) are forced to listen to people like you call themselves "bowhunters" and talk about their "bows" because the se states decided on their own that crossbows should be legalized. Disgusting, really.


----------



## aceoky

twogun said:


> Source,
> 
> 
> 
> Wrong! The survey indicated that the sportsman of KY were in favor of FULL expansion not some compromise. Are you a man of your word or not? You have stated several times that you believe that the decision should be made by the sportsman of the state in question.
> 
> 
> 
> Intentionally spreading misinformation is lying. I've pointed this out to you already on this thread, yet you continue. I guess the truth really doesn't matter to you.
> 
> 
> 
> According to the survey, 90% of the hunters hunt on private land. The only land owners who were surveyed were those with 10 or more acres *AND* who allowed hunting on their property. It makes perfect sense to consider the opinions of the people who allow 90% of the hunters access to their lands.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> More anti-crossbow spin. *Noone is forced to use a crossbow. No land owners are forced to allow hunters to use crossbows on their land. Noone is forced to do anything.*


Exactly! 

It's a matter of choice, in a "free society", how's that a 'bad thing"?? 


Some care not about actual facts that much is obvious, just as every "bow club" and org doesn't limit, membership, but for some unknown reason, WE at the UCBK should do so??? That IS so funny!!! Several have made the claim of how our membership is made up, yet have yet failed to prove it! Even though, *I* have proven how absurd their claims are, since their own "high and mighty" clubs and orgs do exaclty the same thing , they are accusing us of doing! 
GOT FACTS??? :wink: 

IF it's "OK" for any of them to do it, it IS for us, as well, IF it's NOT ok for us, then it's NOT for them to do so either, so much for your "wonderful" clubs and orgs, which had... 

NO problem sticking their noses into our business, as they do everywhere they know the crossbow is being considered, with members from where ever's money paying for this.......again PURE hypocrisy, no more and no less......

Spin,spin and more spin, YET never anything of ANY substance to back up a single claim...... gotta laugh at that approach, then I start to actually feel sorry for some, who seem to have nothing better to do than to trash other hunters whom they've never met, only on their choice of archery weapon, it's more sad than funny once you think about it.....

Just as I've proven EXACTLY who asked for the expansion(individual hunters over a FIVE YEAR period), NOT any organized group of anyone.......PERIOD, 

NOW the same can't be said of those who opposed the expansion, YET they accuse US of "starting this", goes to show you exactly how little regard they give to the truth, the facts and what really happened........

FACT is; the ONLY opposition to this came from organized BOW groups with membership, at least as diverse as OURs, somehow that isn't "relevent" to them .....wonder why that is??

NOW you'll all notice, that *I* haven't brought them up at all, prior to this, I suspect they had every right to fight for their beliefs, but for some reason WE aren't given that same r-e-s-p-e-c-t odd dontcha think?  

However the blame must be placed squarly on those upon whom DID start this, and that is the organized bow clubs who are the very ones who fought the KDFWR expansion plan, on "Round One", up to this point NO other groups were involved at all, why do they always seem to leave out THAT fact, and rather TRY to place the blame on the "pro-side", as "being the ones who caused all of the division"(FR)....

Yet for so long , I've failed to point this out, hoping the false accuasitions would "go away", obviously that isn't going to happen, NOW the facts and the truth are out , just maybe they will??


----------



## aceoky

cynic said:


> Right, a premier organization that accepts changes only to gain revenue.
> 
> Say what? P-Y, recruits members?? and they do so to gain revenue, wow! Sounds no different to me than any clubs (including the UCBK)
> 
> An organization that changes the Elite standards so that people that can't make the grade will still join with a dreaded * by there name.
> 
> NO the * was added so they could list a record archery buck, that otherwise would have NOT been allowed, SO they changed their OWN rules so THEY could list this buck.....hmmm
> 
> 
> How do people still think of that organization as elite and hold them in high esteem. When more archers are using xbows P&Y will have a category for them so they can get what,,,more money..I think of that elite group much in the same way as I think of QDMA..both need to be flushed IMO


Now *I* am not and don't intend to "trash" anyone's bow clubs or orgs, so I would very much appreciate the same respect and regard for ours, sounds fair enough to me......

So , the UCBK, isn't and hasn't done (or been accused of doing; without any proof), that ALL the other clubs, including "elite" bow clubs do, just as I said......hmm

BTW, the UCBK, is a recognized club, and has all of the same "powers" , as the "bow clubs", have, so these false accusations, aren't really worth too much time.......in disputing......point is; it's a "goose and gander" deal here, if it's fine for one or more, then it's fine for us as well, anyone can see that! 

I find it highly amusing, that some can "stick up" and hold some clubs in such "high regards", while doing the same things WE've been accused of doing, and saying "it's dirty" on our part, how far from reality some seem to dwell!!!!


----------



## thesource

aceoky said:


> So , the UCBK, isn't and hasn't done (or been accused of doing; without any proof), that ALL the other clubs, including "elite" bow clubs do, just as I said......hmm


This isn't just spin. This is a flat out lie.

You formed the UCBK so that you could cancel UBK's 2 votes. You RECRUITED non-residents and aliens to do it.

You can bawl all you want, but EVERYONE sees through your charade.

To compare your fledgling and pathetic UCBK to THE Pope and Young Club is beyond reality. You just don't get it.



aceoky said:


> Now *I* am not and don't intend to "trash" anyone's bow clubs or orgs, so I would very much appreciate the same respect and regard for ours, sounds fair enough to me......


Trust me. Your little club, and crossbowers in general, will NEVER get the respect that you seek. You are the bottom rung. You are second class citizens, you are persona nongrata. If you had sought your OWN season things would be very different, indeed.

Get a real bow and become a real bowhunter, and you will be accepted into the fold. Its all we ever asked of you - become a bowhunter if you want to be in bowseason.


----------



## thesource

DougK said:


> There already is a season-archery season (or bowseason) that they can participate in.


Not in the vast majority of states and provinces in North America....Duh. 

Not without picking up a REAL bow .... LOL.


----------



## thesource

DougK said:


> Source,
> 
> People use the equipment they want-whether it be a compound/a stickbow/or a xbow.


I would hope that they stick to what is legal .... lol.



DougK said:


> btw..if xbow hunters had a higher kill rate in VA (I don't know that true-and you'll have to forgive me but since you lie so much I don't take your word) it could well be that they are more dedicated hunters-they spend more time in the woods.


You could look it up...but then you procrossbow guys have a reputation for being lazy (or so I'm told.)  

I like the idea. Please produce the data that shows crossbow hunters spent more time in the woods in VA last year..lol. THAT is as funny as it gets.


----------



## aceoky

*You sir are very correct!*



DougK said:


> when you have to deal with ignorance like this-this type of elitism-is it any wonder these bigots are on the retreat???
> 
> Like I said, I find it both funny......and sad..... time will tell, and the facts and data are on OUR side......that's a "good thing" for US
> 
> why should someone who uses a bow-a crossbow-have to seek their own season? There already is a season-archery season (or bowseason) that they can participate in.


They don't , they shouldn't and in more states each season they WON'T have to do so!:darkbeer: :cocktail: 

THAT FACT; makes some so angry they have to attempt to belittle others and the groups they belong to, but again, time will soon tell.......:wink:


----------



## awshucks

Source: Are you into the sauce again? Usually you don't start your ridiculous ranting quite this early, LOL signed: Respectless 2nd class citizen LOL.


----------



## thesource

DougK said:


> Doesn't this show everyone what a true wacko this guy is???
> 
> second class citizen?
> 
> He's argueing about how people want to participate in a recreational sport-how people wish to enjoy themselves.
> 
> btw..I know several bowhunters of success-no one says they are "second class citizens.
> 
> the only second class citizen here-is the mentally deranged one who has been posting since May 2005.


:nono: :nono: :nono: 

looks like your bidding on another 30 day vacation. Personal attacks will drag you down everytime.

Why do you guys keep breaking the rules? Is it a crossbow thing?


----------



## thesource

awshucks said:


> Source: Are you into the sauce again? Usually you don't start your ridiculous ranting quite this early, LOL signed: Respectless 2nd class citizen LOL.



LOL.

This is prime time for my ridiculous ranting. You generally do not get involved, is all. 

Signed: Respectable Bowhunter.


----------



## aceoky

DougK said:


> Source,
> 
> what's a real bow????
> 
> everyone can see you are a wacko...you prove it with every post.
> 
> You've argued against xbows for a year now-infact you have more posts than myself-and I've been here for a couple years!
> 
> People use the equipment they want-whether it be a compound/a stickbow/or a xbow
> 
> recreational sport.
> 
> *btw..if xbow hunters had a higher kill rate in VA (I don't know that true-and you'll have to forgive me but since you lie so much I don't take your word) it could well be that they are more dedicated hunters-they spend more time in the woods.*


Let's run with that......

Based on that being such an important factor to be used to determine what should or shouldn't be allowed.....

Let's.....

Compare the harvest success rates of compound vs longbows, IF the success rate of one is higher than the other, let's NOT allow that weapon; fair enough????

UNLESS<-------- the harvest rate for any weapon(and this is doubly true in archery hunting) to cause alarm, as regards to the resources, I don't see that it REALLY matters! Besides, as WE are so often told, that is ONLY one state, (We have a couple where they have been allowed for a very long time and a a minority weapon still)......

IOW, it does not matter! True or not, besides, who can say how many had bowhunted for years, and harvested often, that also used a crossbow, or scouted much better since they knew the crossbow would be legal, or how many wives had their husbands set them up "right" to get them a doe........THERE ARE MANY "variables" that WE do not know to "rush to any judgements", especially since WE KNOW that in most states, the success rates are so close to identical, to not even matter to anyone.......period...

Thus, again, it doesn't matter, though some may disagree, that's fine, but for most , UNLESS<-------resources were placed in danger, with an "ever-growing deer herd" in most states that factor would be considered a PLUS for ALL ARCHERY HUNTERS EVERYWHERE!!! :cocktail: :darkbeer:


----------



## thesource

DougK said:


> You just called your fellow sportsman "second class citizens"
> 
> you also called them "lazy"
> 
> You're a wacko-everyone knows it.


Calling a group of folks anything is not a personal attack...duh. Don't they teach ANYTHING in Canada?

LOL.


----------



## thesource

aceoky said:


> Let's run with that......
> 
> Based on that being such an important factor to be used to determine what should or shouldn't be allowed.....
> 
> Let's.....
> 
> Compare the harvest success rates of compound vs longbows, IF the success rate of one is higher than the other, let's NOT allow that weapon; fair enough????
> 
> UNLESS<-------- the harvest rate for any weapon(and this is doubly true in archery hunting) to cause alarm, as regards to the resources, I don't see that it REALLY matters! Besides, as WE are so often told, that is ONLY one state, (We have a couple where they have been allowed for a very long time and a a minority weapon still)......
> 
> IOW, it does not matter! True or not, besides, who can say how many had bowhunted for years, and harvested often, that also used a crossbow, or scouted much better since they knew the crossbow would be legal, or how many wives had their husbands set them up "right" to get them a doe........THERE ARE MANY "variables" that WE do not know to "rush to any judgements", especially since WE KNOW that in most states, the success rates are so close to identical, to not even matter to anyone.......period...
> 
> Thus, again, it doesn't matter, though some may disagree, that's fine, but for most , UNLESS<-------resources were placed in danger, with an "ever-growing deer herd" in most states that factor would be considered a PLUS for ALL ARCHERY HUNTERS EVERYWHERE!!! :cocktail: :darkbeer:


Naw.

None of that matters.

Do crossbows BELONG in bowseason.? ARE they bows?

THAT is what matters. I say NO to both. Its just my opinion.

But I do my damndest to convince others of that. too. Including my state legislators.


----------



## thesource

DougK said:


> another lie from the wackjob. You said:
> 
> 
> 
> You use the word "YOU"
> 
> You're so silly-so mentally ill-so easy to play with. You don't even remember your lies.
> 
> Get help


Derrrrrr.

You have been away from the US so long you forget your english studies? "You" can be singular and plural.....Duh. 

Good god. man .... did you graduate?


----------



## aceoky

Thanks guys, I"m very glad someone is willing to "set things straight" with a certain poster , of which I shant speak of nor respond to, as is by now even likely obvious to said poster....and for reasons already posted, I appreciate it very much, that such absurd things won't go unresponded to, now and in the future!:cocktail: 

DougK, are you aware of *why* the changes in Manitoba for 2005?


----------



## awshucks

Source: I'm almost always around, you bring great humor to me, Thank you. I was around the night you got the boot on HNI, which I deeply regret, it's like when they cancel your favorite TV show or take your favorite cartoon out of the paper. I'm just not very accomplished at using a computer, probably spend too much time shooting my crossbows. LOL

And, while you run around New York, getting land-owners to prohibit the future use of xbows, kinda like a one man bann???LOL I want you to know that I will be posting directions on how to get to my part of Arkansas so those unfortunate 2nd class respectless guys up there will have 2.5 MILLION acres of Nat'l Forest to hunt, free camping here to btw. LOL


----------



## thesource

aceoky said:


> Thanks guys, I"m very glad someone is willing to "set things straight" with a certain poster , of which I shant speak of nor respond to, as is by now even likely obvious to said poster....and for reasons already posted, I appreciate it very much, that such absurd things won't go unresponded to, now and in the future!:cocktail:
> 
> DougK, are you aware of *why* the changes in Manitoba for 2005?


Ha ha ha ha


Now that's funny. You are immediate allies of DougK - HE's The only one to be banned for crossbow comments!

You guys are a delightful trip. You deserve each other!:darkbeer:


----------



## cynic

thesource said:


> LOL.
> Signed: Respectable Bowhunter.


And can anyone here advocate him as respectable. What I'm waiting on is his members certificate to P&Y that he advocates so strongly..Better yet can you(source) post some pics of your successful hunts along with the equipment used..These pics must include you in them


----------



## aceoky

DougK said:


> I really didn't know there were any changes in MB. All I can tell you is this is a HUGE area-with enormous government land.
> 
> Infact, just today I was out with my son field shooting..enjoying ourselves..and taking our two dogs out for a good run.
> 
> Xbows aren't a legal bow for the archery season here-but I think it's just a matter of asking for it. Talking to bowhunters-I really see no one opposed. Right next door, we have ONT, and that is an enormous area as well. I am considering hunting there this fall-you do not need a guide.


MANITOBA CANADA:



NEW FOR 2005:









Changes For The 2005 Hunting Season
Bows
*No person *may hunt with a bow drawn, held, or released by a mechanical device, except with a hand-held mechanical release attached to the bowstring if the person's own strength draws and holds the bowstring. 

http://www.gov.mb.ca/conservation/wildlife/huntingg/changes.html

I was under the impression that the disabled were allowed to use them prior to this ????


----------



## thesource

DougK said:


> I just noticed!
> 
> DougK...member since Mar 2003...1752 posts
> 
> TheSource...member since May 2005...1752 posts
> what a wacko.





DougK said:


> responding to him gives him attention he desperately craves (he's been on against xbows for a year now!) and everyone knows he doesn't bowhunt or really hunt at all.





DougK said:


> he's been ranting against xbow hunters now for 1 year on this forum-and on some others as well.





DougK said:


> he has 1740+ posts since May of last year (his first year) on xbows and how people should participate in a recreational season..





DougK said:


> You've argued against xbows for a year now-infact you have more posts than myself-and I've been here for a couple years!



I think its pretty obvious who is obsessed with what.

Tell you what Doug,,,I'll let them subtract 500 posts from my total if it will make you feel better.......


----------



## thesource

awshucks said:


> Source: I'm almost always around, you bring great humor to me, Thank you. I was around the night you got the boot on HNI, which I deeply regret, it's like when they cancel your favorite TV show or take your favorite cartoon out of the paper. I'm just not very accomplished at using a computer, probably spend too much time shooting my crossbows. LOL
> 
> And, while you run around New York, getting land-owners to prohibit the future use of xbows, kinda like a one man bann???LOL I want you to know that I will be posting directions on how to get to my part of Arkansas so those unfortunate 2nd class respectless guys up there will have 2.5 MILLION acres of Nat'l Forest to hunt, free camping here to btw. LOL


Then you know that your buddy Dnk cheated (surprise) by taking a PM (that stands for personal, by the way) from AT and claiming it was e-mail at HNI.

Its what I've come to expect from crossbowers.

I'm glad that you can see the humor in my posts...not just anyone seems to appreciate it.


----------



## thesource

cynic said:


> And can anyone here advocate him as respectable. What I'm waiting on is his members certificate to P&Y that he advocates so strongly..Better yet can you(source) post some pics of your successful hunts along with the equipment used..These pics must include you in them


You better not hold your breath.

I think that posting pictures is uncouth. No man needs to brag of his conquests. It is not just skill, but luck that allows us our moments of glory. But for a late afternoon meeting, or a JV football game, the timing would not have been right and the opportunity would have passed.


----------



## thesource

DougK said:


> Source,
> 
> quit dodging...WHY do you post so much on how people might want to bowhunt?
> 
> and who are these lawmakers?
> 
> and why the nasty PMs?
> 
> as I said, you are mentally ill-everyone knows that.


Well, you are certainly entitled to your opinions about my mental health - although I can tell from your ramblings you are hardly qualifird to make a diagnosis.:tongue: 

You can look up NY lawmakers as easily as I did. Of course, since you are a NR they couldn't give a crap about you.:tongue: 

Please give me some evidence of nasty PM.....shall I post the one you sent me about punching me in my face?:tongue:


----------



## cynic

thesource said:


> You better not hold your breath.
> 
> I think that posting pictures is uncouth. No man needs to brag of his conquests. It is not just skill, but luck that allows us our moments of glory. But for a late afternoon meeting, or a JV football game, the timing would not have been right and the opportunity would have passed.


 This is hilarious, if it wasn't for bragging rights and recognition P&Y would not exist . There is places to post your pics even on this board. You are right it takes skill and luck to harvest game and without some proof of your success I would venture to say that neither have visited you. Talk about JV footbal You have the end around run down pat..

When ever you try to get to the bottom of things remember *the source*
Definition: bottom lowest part


----------



## cynic

Even anti hunters wouldn't want him perpetrating a hunter with his lame attempts and idealogy.


----------



## thesource

cynic said:


> This is hilarious, if it wasn't for bragging rights and recognition P&Y would not exist .


Having your name listed in P&Y is FAR different than posting a picture on AT because some yahoo demands it.

Apparently you do not understand. I feel no need to garner your approval...you are insignificant in the big scheme of things. This is not about 1 person... its about bowhunting as a whole.


----------



## cynic

So is your name in it. I didn't think so. Are you a hunter, I think not. Are you a sportsman depends on the game(tennis, tiddlywinks).


----------



## thesource

DougK said:


> Everyone knows this is just an anti-hunter pretending to be a hunter.
> ...





cynic said:


> Even anti hunters wouldn't want him perpetrating a hunter with his lame attempts and idealogy.



Yawnnnnnnn.......

your personal attacks (apparently unnoticed by our moderator) do not dissuade me in the least.:darkbeer:


----------



## cynic

thesource said:


> Yawnnnnnnn.......
> 
> your personal attacks (apparently unnoticed by our moderator) do not dissuade me in the least.:darkbeer:


Maybe he doesn't have time to babysit you when you bring it own yourself.


----------



## cynic

I give him credit he has been able to enlist response for page after page all by himself with his ramblings and jibberish.


----------



## awshucks

Source: LOL I do see the humor!! Hard to not!!! Don't stop now, I just made a double batch of popcorn LOL. [was outta nuts] LOL Btw: Dnk outta be here before to long, kinda get both perspectives on "the night the lights went out in..... LOL Is there a hook by the door for him to hang his respect on?? LOL


----------



## dnk

thesource said:


> Then you know that your buddy Dnk cheated (surprise) by taking a PM (that stands for personal, by the way) from AT and claiming it was e-mail at HNI.
> 
> Its what I've come to expect from crossbowers.
> 
> I'm glad that you can see the humor in my posts...not just anyone seems to appreciate it.


Just to clear the air and my name, here is the EMAIL in question. Please note the words EMAIL. I am not sure if some one here knows what a lie is but there maybe one floating around here. Below is the email to the moderator. It has not been altered.

Thanks,

He'll get a 100 year ban for that. 

-Christine

On Fri, 17 Mar 2006 17:49:52 -0500
"Don" <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "thesource @ 
>ArcheryTalk" <[email protected]>
> To: <[email protected]>
> Sent: Thursday, March 16, 2006 9:04 PM
> Subject: You are a girl
> 
> 
>> This is a message from thesource at ArcheryTalk ( 
>> http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/index.php ). The 
>>ArcheryTalk owners cannot 
>> accept any responsibility for the contents of the email.
>>
>> To email thesource, you can use this online form:
>> http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/sendmessage.php?do=mailmember&u=24370
>>
>> OR, by email:
>> mailto:[email protected]
>>
>> This is the message:
>>
>> Ha ha - you are getting your ass kicked on hunting.net 
>>and are calling for 
>> backups and banning.
>>
>> What a baby.
>>
>> Hope you enjoy your protected status here (since I can't 
>>post) and in 
>> Hunting.net (since you have girlish no debating rules). 
>> Hide behind those 
>> skirts....and tell me again how you are winning.
>> 
> 
>


----------



## dnk

Doug, why bother?


----------



## greenboy

source-- i would never go to the nybowhunters for help. they do not speak for every bowhunter in ny an to me they are lower than dog dodo, for there stand on crossbows. u know i can not get a permit for a crossbow,drawlock because all my fingers work, i do not need a blow tube, a fancey way to stop crossbower, they help a few handycap that need a air tube to shoot there bow, an dump the rest of the people, they use these people as a cover to keep there season pure from others that just what to hunt, this is my take on them . u are good ,at the twist- to me compound are so close to crossbow that there is no way to tell the differance one has a arm, one a stock, big deal they should have a season together . when i was a trad archery i though i was better than compounders, i was dumb. just though of myself, an did not think about crossbows. after my injurys i have learned a few things grown alittle. everyone should be alowed in archery season with a bow,compound,crossbow, its fair,an it is only right, ny will see the lite an we will have crossbow someday,source think in the last 6 mos. how many forums have open up u can not stop the flow of the crossbow are here an the trend is growing Bob:darkbeer:


----------



## oldbhtrnewequip

thesource said:


> I don't believe for a second you will "forget about crossbows for a moment."
> 
> If you succeed in getting folks to agree to wheelless, you will spring Excaliburs on them like a steel trap.....
> 
> Tell you what. We can include crossbows in your theoretical wheeless season if they are truly primitive. Wood and iron, no scopes...in fact, no sights.
> 
> Let's see how that flies.


That sounds like a reasonable proposal. I'll embrace it.

We don't have to decide if the season gets carved out of the existing bow season, or if new time is asked for, or if it should run concurrently. I'd have no problems with any of those options. There aren't any other choices! That would be decided by the local DNR anyway. The purpose is to develop a nationally accepted and recommended model by which individual state level Natural Resources folks can take direction.

And I did say for a moment. No, the excaliburs (the ones I've seen anyway) are too modern in nature to be called primitive, in my book. But what do I know.
I'm not an expert.

I would enlist the likes of J. Wesbrook and Robin Allen to make recommendations for primitive definitions for longbow, recurve, and crossbow. They are authorities that I think just about everyone here can acknowledge and respect as knowing enough of history and equipment to make appropriate recommendations. 

We'll give them time to agree in principle, discuss, and come up with a joint recommendation. They can decide on an appropriate year in time to define as the transition from primitive to modern era.
Its their proposal. 

They can enlist help as they see fit. They can use whomever or whatever resources they see fit to come up with a solution. They can choose to reference supporting documentation for their decisions or not.

That will be followed by an open comment period of two weeks, to allow others to comment and interject recommended changes based on historical facts and findings that they produce.

That will be followed by a closed period in which J. and Robin deliberate the issues. If they consent and agree to a final joint proposal, based on their own solution and recommendations to others, it will be put to a vote on this forum. Any archerytalk members are welcome to vote and contribute. Dissenting votes will be acknowledged IF at least 1 reason/rationale is given. It could be I don't like the color of the ballot box. Member votes will not be counted if
a.) they weren't a member before 5/1/2006
b.) they haven't contributed to at least one post to one thread on hunting in the 12 months preceding 5/1/2006.

I'll ask J. and Robin if they are willing to participate.

I'll also ask doc, as moderator, to strongly consider the positive aspects of this effort and allow expertise and open debate to exist for the purposes of furthering bowhunting, in all of its forms. 

There is no monopoly on good ideas, I'll specifically solicit input from both Source and Doc on recommendations to this process. I will only post pm's to the four individuals I've discussed here so that all discussion, pertaining to me, is in the open.


----------



## aceoky

DougK said:


> I don't know. I've only lived here a couple years-and with work commitments-a house-family-I don't follow everything.
> 
> I just sent them an email and asked...and also said it was time to bring xbows into the archery season here.:cocktail:


Thanks, I wasn't aware of how long you'd been there, but that part struck me as "odd".....again thanks, and hope that other idea "takes off" as well!:cocktail:


----------



## oldbhtrnewequip

oldbhtrnewequip said:


> I will only post pm's to the four individuals I've discussed here so that all discussion, pertaining to me, is in the open.


Correction. I've included someone else who may have direct access to Robin because I haven't seen him post in the last 5 days.


----------



## oldbhtrnewequip

My apologies to J. Wesbrock.


----------



## the-ghost

so if i take the firing spring off the pin on my old o3a3 and clamp a bow to the barrel. then use the bow to make the firing pin discharge the rifle can i use that in archery season to? i mean heck its got a bow on it? :tongue: 

i don't have a problem with a crossbow season, but let me tell you the problem i have with them. one of the hardest things to learn in bowhunting is when to draw, and drawing you're bow without getting busted. thats a big part of the game. every year that factor makes or breaks a bowhunting's bag limit, and is part of the sport.

where i come from we have bow season, shotgun season, and muzzle loader season. if crossbows were aloud for non-disabled hunters it would only make sense to have a crossbow season.

how this thread, which started as a wheel vs non wheel bow thread, turned into crossbow debate is not the point of the topic. as for the topic no i dont think you can say ok now this part of the season is trad bow season and this part is compound season. i do however like the idea of having areas labeled as traditional gear only, which some areas are. just as some waters are fly fishing only.


----------



## the-ghost

i also wouldn't confuse primitive with traditional. primitive would be stone heads and wooden shafts on selfbows dating back to the primitive eras like 10,000 years ago. theres nothing primitive about a carbon limbed recurve or longbow with glass backing.


----------



## cynic

I agree that the thread has taken a turn, The 03A3 projectile would still be launch by an internally chambered controlled explosion making it still a firearm. As for seasons, seems as though people other than xbowers that will agree that crossbows should be legal and they should have a place always point to a season other than theres. It is now even funnier that when you talk about wheelless archery the compound users that encroached on the original season don't feel that a Traditional equipment season should take away any of THEIR time. It is no wonder that hunters are losing ground we can't even get along with each other. Next we will hear that compounds are a more ethical than traditionals.


----------



## cynic

and there truly isn't anything more traditional or primitive about a new mathews, bowtech or hoyt, etc etc...than an xbow. The big difference is xbows were here way before cams, wheels, and pullies


----------



## the-ghost

well on my bowhunting tag it says resident bow and arrow hunter, not archery hunter. 

i agree 100% theres to much bickering among hunters. on this thread alone theres pages of crap being thrown around. maybe if some of you guys who can whip up 5 pages of reasons why you're for this or that would focus you're energy on fighting peta we would have alot less to worry about in the long term, and maybe this site would be a better place for everyone.

i see nothing wrong with creating a new season for crossbows, heck my bow season runs right through both muzzle loader and shotgun. and muzzle loader overlaps shotgun. seems to me each weapon of choice has its own season (at least in my state). so why should a crossbow, which as the name reflects, be lumped in with bow and arrow season. if crossbow season over laps or runs side by side with archery season so be it but a crossbow isn't a bow its part gun part bow and requires different regulations that pertain to its different classification.


----------



## the-ghost

no the big difference is the draw lock.


----------



## Marvin

DougK said:


> Source is so ridden with jealous, guilt, and feeling of inadequacy I doubt any logic will have effect on him.
> 
> Clearly he has a problem-he's been ranting against xbow hunters now for 1 year on this forum-and on some others as well.
> 
> Anyone with this type of obsession on how another chooses to participate in a recreational sport has some serious issues.


 so soon you forget your time out.....gosh i guess you'll never learn. go figure


----------



## Marvin

DougK said:


> Of course it is...because he doesn't have any..
> 
> Everyone knows this is just an anti-hunter pretending to be a hunter.
> 
> I've said it before...bowhunting is on the attack list by the anti hunters..and Source hates the idea of the xbow because that brings more hunters in. In NY, the average hunter age is over 40.
> 
> Just ask yourself, what type of a sportsman refers to his fellow sportsman as "second class citizens?" Says they are "lazy"? Writes to lawmakers and sits on a board on the net like he does? Says stupid things?
> 
> Really, it's sad....


 Doug...what hunting ISN'T under attack by anti hunter?


----------



## cynic

The really sad part is that several forms of hunting (mostly crossbow and dog hunting)get attacked by the truly professed anti-hunters and then again by so called hunters mostly compound bow hunters that deny being anti-hunters. IMO they just don't go to the extreme that the organizations do, but they form Assoc. petition lawmakers, rally support and lobby against... wait that sounds to me alot like anti-hunters. Guess it's a smaller world than we thought


----------



## thesource

cynic said:


> The really sad part is that several forms of hunting (mostly crossbow and dog hunting)get attacked by the truly professed anti-hunters and then again by so called hunters mostly compound bow hunters that deny being anti-hunters. IMO they just don't go to the extreme that the organizations do, but they form Assoc. petition lawmakers, rally support and lobby against... wait that sounds to me alot like anti-hunters. Guess it's a smaller world than we thought


You aren't getting it.

Bowhunters do not consider using a crossbow in Archery Season to be fair chase.

You want us to violate our ethics just so you can use your toy in bowseason.

When we refuse to cave in to your demands, you call us antihunters.

Notice that bowhunters do not consider crossbows unethical if they were in their OWN season....just like we do not consider guns unethical in their own season. But using either weapon during bowseason is not fair chase.


----------



## Marvin

*Hey ACE!*

I am still waiting on that supposive second survey. I tried to wade through all the posts on here but i did not see it. if you have a link please update. if you have provided it point me in the right direction. Please


----------



## Jim C

thesource said:


> You aren't getting it.
> 
> Bowhunters do not consider using a crossbow in Archery Season to be fair chase.
> 
> You want us to violate our ethics just so you can use your toy in bowseason.
> 
> When we refuse to cave in to your demands, you call us antihunters.
> 
> Notice that bowhunters do not consider crossbows unethical if they were in their OWN season....just like we do not consider guns unethical in their own season. But using either weapon during bowseason is not fair chase.



do you truly believe this nonsense or do you say it because you can't say what you truly believe


"fair chase" Now tell us why so many of you claim that its ok to use a crossbow in gun season but not bow season

how does fair chase change dependent on the time? You are not only lying as to what fair chase is-you are making this up


----------



## Free Range

> The landowners must grant permission to hunt, NO reason to pass this IF they're strongly opposed, again 90% of Ky hunting takes place on THEIR lands......that's huge!


WOW you guys were busy over the weekend. First Ace, as you have said in the past, if the x-bow is made legal the land owner can not allow them on his land if he so chooses. So this really had no affect on the land owner at all, in regards to your post above. 



> The Kentucky Department of Fish and Wildlife Resources (KDFWR) has received numerous requests over the past 5 years to extend the crossbow-hunting season.


What is numerous, 4,5,20,22? 



> WEll, since I've NEVER seen one of these polls here, I'll take your word for that fair enough??? Again, an archery forum poll proves exactly what?? THE minoirty of hunters are archery hunters,so what IF the majority of the minoriity oppose crossbows?? That says NOTHING about the majority of the majority of hunters nationwide or anywhere else.......SEE?


Again, when it suites you it’s all hunters, we all know you are a gun hunter first, so why should any bow hunter take anything you say as worth any more then a grain of salt? Anyone that has in their signature “reloaders haul brass” on a archery forum well just isn’t all that concerned about bowhunting IMO.



> I'm one and very proud of that


Very proud, are you some kind of elitist?



> I will "overlook the ARA comment" as "tongue in cheek", and leave it at that......WE were MORE concerned with UNITY than victory, AS YOU well know(or should) having been a part of the discussion for awhile......


You were only interested in unity before you thought you had a chance for the whole thing. By your own admission you wanted compromise before the first survey. After the first survey which was very close, and could go either way with an all out fight, you wanted compromise. Now comes the Cornell survey, which was more one sided, makes you wonder what happen between the two surveys, but I digress. Now when it looks like you have a clear advantage, it’s “ALL OR NOTHING, WE ARE GOING TO WIN GET USE TO IT”, funny how that works. Now remember back a few months ago, I asked you, what would you do, if the DNR decided to devide the season along the lines of the survey results, 70/30??? Remember that, I do, and if I remember right you would never answer that question. You kept saying it’s over get use to it, we won, there is no reason or room for anything less then the whole thing, remember that Ace? 
Now what happen to unity, what happen to can’t we all get along? 




> By Cynic
> What are you wanting to compare? Source as I remember the pro xbow won the debate at this forum hands down because you nor the ones thinking like you could provide any data to back anti xbow way of thinking, yet you continue to badger in the dataless thoughts


No you don’t remember right, no facts were brought up, and the mod, a pro x-bow guy declared it a win for the pro side, no big surprise. 




> This is hilarious, if it wasn't for bragging rights and recognition P&Y would not exist .


Sorry, but if you have been around as long as you claim you would know that has nothing to do with how or why the P&Y club was founded. Please do some research before you make such outrageous claims.


----------



## twogun

thesource said:


> You aren't getting it.
> 
> Bowhunters do not consider using a crossbow in Archery Season to be fair chase.
> 
> You want us to violate our ethics just so you can use your toy in bowseason.
> 
> When we refuse to cave in to your demands, you call us antihunters.
> 
> Notice that bowhunters do not consider crossbows unethical if they were in their OWN season....just like we do not consider guns unethical in their own season. But using either weapon during bowseason is not fair chase.



This defies all logic and reason and is a very dangerous train of thought. It deserves its own thread. As much as I hate to start another crossbow thread, this "idea" has huge implications for hunting rights which is what this forum is for.

"Fair Chase" is the foundation on which this sport is built, and we have one segment (P&Y) of the hunting "community" trying to manipulate the standard to protect their own special interests and not the good of hunting in general. 

New thread coming soon (maybe later than sooner but it will come).


----------



## Marvin

twogun said:


> This defies all logic and reason and is a very dangerous train of thought. It deserves its own thread. As much as I hate to start another crossbow thread, this "idea" has huge implications for hunting rights which is what this forum is for.
> 
> "Fair Chase" is the foundation on which this sport is built, and we have one segment (P&Y) of the hunting "community" trying to manipulate the standard to protect their own ( You mean bowhuntings right?) special interests and not the good of hunting in general ( you mean gun hunters right?).
> 
> New thread coming soon (maybe later than sooner but it will come).


to clarify...No wonder there is all this confusion. They are talking about hunting and were talking about BOWHUNTING...... After all this time the truth comes out


----------



## aceoky

Free Range said:


> WOW you guys were busy over the weekend. First Ace, as you have said in the past, if the x-bow is made legal the land owner can not allow them on his land if he so chooses. So this really had no affect on the land owner at all, in regards to your post above. .
> 
> I stand by my statement and the KDFWR, IF the majority of landowners were against the expansion not much point in expanding they were for full expansion by a vast majority, so it matters not anyway, as most "points made by the opposition don't
> 
> 
> 
> What is numerous, 4,5,20,22?
> 
> Yes, only 22  Get a clue, individual HUNTERS in our state petitioned the KDFWR for over 5 YEARS for this, NOT any pro-crossbow groups as YOU have charged, the KDFWR studied the possible effects of doing so since before 1997, then in 2002 mailed surveys to hunters, which by a huge majority, were in support of full expansion, the the Dept went forward with an expansion, NOT even close to what YOU said...fwiw
> 
> 
> 
> Again, when it suites you it’s all hunters, we all know you are a gun hunter first, so why should any bow hunter take anything you say as worth any more then a grain of salt? Anyone that has in their signature “reloaders haul brass” on a archery forum well just isn’t all that concerned about bowhunting IMO.
> 
> Happy you KNOW this, funny I never killed one single deer last year with any gun(or ML), I did however kill two on the ground with my bow.....actually, I'm primarily a bow hunter, but I use a ML and an /06 as well, IOW I'm a DEER HUNTER...and hunt each season with the legal weapon(S), and I have been known to carry a bow during gun season...shows what you do KNOW......the personal stuff, is not needed and has no merit in any of this btw how's that for a "grain of salt", YOU seem to "think" you know so much, but you have missed 'the mark of EVERYTHING that has taken place in KY, though you seem to "know" your "knowlege" has major flaws, for one , the FIRST commison vote was the ONLY thing close the first time......AND it was 5-4 for expansion(IOW enough to pass)....the first survey was NOT close, but for some unknown reason you keep repeating that untruth.....
> 
> 
> 
> Very proud, are you some kind of elitist?
> 
> Obviously...... Which is why I'm so much concerned only how with what *I* choose to hunt with and think other hunters are very capable of making their own archery choices in archery season, amazingly, that IS exactly the case in those states which have expanded the crossbow, many USE BOTH types of weapons.........
> 
> 
> 
> You were only interested in unity before you thought you had a chance for the whole thing. By your own admission you wanted compromise before the first survey. After the first survey which was very close, and could go either way with an all out fight, you wanted compromise.
> 
> YOU have a SERIOUS reading comprehension problem;(or only post what you wish you'd read).....
> 
> FIRST that is 100% wrong, as I've stated and proven.........secondly the FIRST SURVEY was anything but close, the VAST MAJORITY, (almost as much of a % as the second one fwiw,* nearly identical results........also, IF you'd bother to read, ONLY 22 written requests AGAINST expansion, (and those were from members of organized "bow clubs" in KY, who later claimed they didn't know what was going on.....ALSO, "before the first survey" NONE Of US were involved as any group, best go back and read things much closer IF you're going to attempt to correct facts with such utter BS*
> 
> Now comes the Cornell survey, which was more one sided, makes you wonder what happen between the two surveys,
> 
> again total 100% BS which more than once I've proven right here in this thread
> 
> 
> but I digress. Now when it looks like you have a clear advantage, it’s “ALL OR NOTHING, WE ARE GOING TO WIN GET USE TO IT”, funny how that works. Now remember back a few months ago, I asked you, what would you do, if the DNR decided to devide the season along the lines of the survey results, 70/30??? Remember that, I do, and if I remember right you would never answer that question. You kept saying it’s over get use to it, we won, there is no reason or room for anything less then the whole thing, remember that Ace?
> 
> Again YES, I do, do you remember HOW MANY were saying, WE tried to compromise, they said NO , they were SO sure the Cornell survey would prove them right, they refused to even TRY to work with us in "good faith", their problem
> Now what happen to unity, what happen to can’t we all get along?
> 
> answered that above, UNITY, went out when we worked together to try to compromise, they said "this survey will prove we're right" and we're "not budging" until we prove that , then you'll get nothing.....knowing the results of the first survey vastly favored expansion(again).......for some unknown reason they suspected the KDFWR , "fixed" that survey and this one would both prove that, and that the majority didn't want this, they lost both counts, and still didn't want us to get anythingl, Funny how YOU choose to forget those facts AND keep saying the first survey was "close", it was NOT close and almost exactly identical to the first one (one part was 1% different another part ( the number of gun hunters IIRC was 3% different), TWO SURVEYS prove what we as Ky hunters want.......YOU or anyone's "spin" won't change the facts, but "nice try", with your spin; nothing of real importance on the issue at hand was different enough to matter the VAST MAJORITY were in FULL support in BOTH SURVEYS.....hope you can graps the FACTS now..
> 
> 
> 
> No you don’t remember right, no facts were brought up, and the mod, a pro x-bow guy declared it a win for the pro side, no big surprise.
> 
> Whatever
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sorry, but if you have been around as long as you claim you would know that has nothing to do with how or why the P&Y club was founded. Please do some research before you make such outrageous claims.


YOU made the point of the UCBK , having "outside members", I have proven the P&Y club does as well, since they are THE club, for "bowhunters", IF it's "fine" for them, then saying it isn't for us (and accusing us of having this imaginary large Canadian base no less) saying it was "dirty", etc. ONLY proves that since "your elite club" does the same thing, guess they're just as "dirty" as we are!!! OR neither IS "dirty", I'll let each decide upon that for themselves!

They've done it for years and years, IF we followed thier example, oh well, we're dirty and they're "perfect", sorry only in some's dream world does "logic" like that apply!!!

In this "no wheels" example people would lose opportunity unless they already are good enough to hunt this way.......

Allowing crossbows does NOT force anyone to change how they hunt or with what weapon, only ALLOWS the CHOICE of another weapon......which is why they WILL be allowed and are each and every year into more and more states!

More opportunity with NO risk to the resources is a great thing, AND IS good for all of us, some may not like having to share with other hunters, and archery hunters at that, simply based upon their choice of weapon, but they'll see soon enough, it was "much ado about nothing"!


----------



## Marvin

aceoky said:


> YOU made the point of the UCBK , having "outside members", I have proven the P&Y club does as well, since they are THE club, for "bowhunters", IF it's "fine" for them, then saying it isn't for us (and accusing us of having this imaginary large Canadian base no less) saying it was "dirty", etc. ONLY proves that since "your elite club" does the same thing, guess they're just as "dirty" as we are!!! OR neither IS "dirty", I'll let each decide upon that for themselves!
> 
> They've done it for years and years, IF we followed thier example, oh well, we're dirty and they're "perfect", sorry only in some's dream world does "logic" like that apply!!!
> 
> In this "no wheels" example people would lose opportunity unless they already are good enough to hunt this way.......
> 
> Allowing crossbows does NOT force anyone to change how they hunt or with what weapon( now wait a minute this is not entirely true), only ALLOWS the CHOICE of another weapon( to be used in gun season or in their own season)......which is why they WILL be allowed and are each and every year into more and more states!
> 
> More opportunity with NO risk to the resources is a great thing, AND IS good for all of us, some may not like having to share with other hunters, and archery hunters at that, simply based upon their choice of weapon, but they'll see soon enough, it was "much ado about nothing"!


Come on ace where is this other survey with the vast majority? If you have such an ACE up your sleeve now is the time to pounce.


----------



## Free Range

Ace I'm still looking into the England thing, but this is the latest bit of info I have, thought you would like this one, the quoted parts are from Steve Kendrick, President of the E.F.A.A. in response to my questions, the parts not in quotes

Steve,


> Hi Tim





> Thank you for your inquiary, it is good to hear from interested parties.


Let me introduce myself, my name is Tim Trammell I live in Colorado, USA. And I’m an avid bowhunter. I also do a bit of research here and there on bow hunting history, mostly for my own information.

I’m looking into a claim that the reason bow hunting is not allowed in England is because the bow hunters didn’t want the crossbow allowed,


> not quite true, although the only archery related crimes recorded in the UK have been with the cross bow


 and for some reason because of that all bow hunting was outlawed. I guess this happened sometime back in the 1960’s but don’t know for sure.


> This is correct it was in the 60`s but the main reason was because of space. The UK does not have the open spaces that you are lucky to have in the USofA, so for Health and Safety reasons (for the genaral public) it was banned.


It’s hard to find any information pertaining to this, and in searching the web I came across the EFAA site and thought I would ask and see if maybe you would know something, or be able to point me in the right direction.


> I will do a little more reserch for you and let you know if I come up with anything more.


Thanks for any help you might be able to provide.


> If I can help you with anything else please feel free to ask.


----------



## aceoky

Marvin said:


> Come on ace where is this other survey with the vast majority? If you have such an ACE up your sleeve now is the time to pounce.


.

For the what is it now ten times Marvin???

*In 2002, the KDFWR conducted a hunter survey that was mailed to 13,500 hunters in Kentucky – *

“What do you think about the use of crossbows during archery season?” *Using the data from the survey* 

The "data used" was the VAST MAJORITY WERE IN FAVOR OF FULL EXPANSION, IT WAS WELL KNOWN FOR AND TALKED ABOUT FOR AT LEAST A COUPLE OF YEARS..


and with the *knowledge that an extended crossbow-hunting season would not have a negative impact on the resource,* 


KDFWR recently proposed an *extension of the crossbow-hunting season for whitetail deer and wild turkeys* from the historical framework of a 10-day season to running at the same time as archery season (first Saturday in Sept. through the third Monday in Jan.). 

A minority of hunters (KDFWR received only 22 written comments in opposition to the season) lobbied legislators to terminate the season.

BTW; I started(finally) a thread for these discussions so as to not take away from the original "no wheels" thread, I apologize, to the original poster;for this thread moving from it's original purpose to the Ky issues......


----------



## aceoky

Free Range said:


> Ace I'm still looking into the England thing, but this is the latest bit of info I have, thought you would like this one, the quoted parts are from Steve Kendrick, President of the E.F.A.A. in response to my questions, the parts not in quotes
> 
> Steve,
> 
> 
> Let me introduce myself, my name is Tim Trammell I live in Colorado, USA. And I’m an avid bowhunter. I also do a bit of research here and there on bow hunting history, mostly for my own information.
> 
> I’m looking into a claim that the reason bow hunting is not allowed in England is because the bow hunters didn’t want the crossbow allowed,  and for some reason because of that all bow hunting was outlawed. I guess this happened sometime back in the 1960’s but don’t know for sure.
> 
> It’s hard to find any information pertaining to this, and in searching the web I came across the EFAA site and thought I would ask and see if maybe you would know something, or be able to point me in the right direction.
> 
> Thanks for any help you might be able to provide.



Yeah, "OK", it was for "space reasons", archery is SUCH a long range sport....

FR, IF you REALLY want to KNOW the facts(which are exactly as I told you btw), you will have to do the actual research for "back then", asking a current polotician, what happened over 40 years ago, won't very likely get you facts, and espcially unvarnished ones fwiw...

I first have NO reason to make it up, secondly know it for a fact, and thirdly ONLY mentioned it to show that sharing is better than losing it all, as they did in England some forty plus years ago, dispute it , try your best to refute, it, doesn't matter, as I've already told you the truth, IF the truth is hard for you to "swallow", so be it......it's still the truth, and proves when hunters go against other hunters ONLY hunters stand to lose........

Also, FR it is NOT unknown, or "top secret", for many, many years it was considered "news" and the Anti-Hunters for years used it as a 'point of strategy"(where I first learned of it, actually was from a anti-hunting group trying to recruit new members say "This is the best way to accomplish our united goals", or that is very close......so I checked it out(failing to believe that it had actually occured as they said, surprise, surprise, this time they were correct...........maybe the only time, but alas, they had this one exactly correct......)

THAT fact, "raised red flags" in my mind, about how ALL hunters need to remain focused on what is REALLY important, and support other hunter's wishes, rights, and choices, otherwise, history may well repeat itself, something *I* do NOT wish to see.......whatever your spin, you certainly can accept that....


----------



## aceoky

A VERY intersting post from Tennessee, from an obvious "true bowhunter"(and many know that is a fact fwiw).....who was against the crossbow's inclusion in his state THEN....

One more note on my comments. 

*I was not affected or effected last hunting season by the legal use of crossbows in Tn hunting season.* 

I* do not mind them being a legal weapon to be used in this years hunting season.* 

I guess it is my contention that compound and crossbow shooters are sharing the bow season with me and I am glad for them BUT neither group is bowhunting. They just get to hunt with their gadgets during bowhunting season. I hope I can keep on bowhunting and never have to use such awful contraptions *but my camp is always open to hunters.*

SEE? It is NOT that hard, to accept other's choices, EVEN when you don't actually agree with them, THIS is the attitude, I wish we all had, hard to be divided, or "fight", when one simply accepts, other's have choices THEY are happy with, YOU don't have to like them, only agree to their wishes, and he admits he was NOT affected or effected in any way!!

There are several such posts being made NOW, after they tried the crossbow expansion , which say the same type thing" I fought it "tooth and nail", but once it happened it didn't affect me or anyone I know on bit".........Why would it? YOU still hunted "your way" some others hunted "their way", which may or may not have been the same, and so what??


----------



## Free Range

OK now the president of the England Field Archery Association, is a “current politician” , so would the secretary of the UCBK be considered a politician too? 
And we should take the word of you over the word of the President of probably the biggest archery association in England as to what went on in his own country?? 



> THAT fact, "raised red flags" in my mind, about how ALL hunters need to remain focused on what is REALLY important, and support other hunter's wishes, rights, and choices, otherwise, history may well repeat itself, something *I* do NOT wish to see.......whatever your spin, you certainly can accept that....


So after this research you did, that brought you to this conclusion your next logical step was to run off and become the secretary of an up-start x-bow organization and push for inclusion so as to NOT cause division???? That there is some sound logic, I think it might have been better to ask your x-bow toting brethren to stop causing all this division. After all, I your world England had a archery season until the x-bow guys wanted in, right?


----------



## thesource

Jim C said:


> "fair chase" Now tell us why so many of you claim that its ok to use a crossbow in gun season but not bow season


how does fair chase change dependent on the time? You are not only lying as to what fair chase is-you are making this up[/QUOTE]

I would think you could figure that out on your own. If it is fair chase to pursue game with a rifle during gun season (and it is), then it is certainly fair chase to do so with a crossbow.

But crossbows during bowseason violate the rules of fair chase, as would the aforementioned rifle. Not fair chase....simple.

I consider your accusations of lying and fabricating to be in poor taste....lol. Twogun was saying something earlier about loudmouth bullies....

were your ears burning?


----------



## Jim C

Idiotic nonsense-fair chase is not dependent on an artificial calendar-you even admitted xbow season could be the same time as "archery season"

now how is it fair chase or not?

the bottom line is that you have some problem that is internally generated with what others hunt with. There is no evidence that a modern compound is less efficient than a modern crossbow when it comes to harvesting deer


----------



## cynic

Fair chase as seen by many, Is no high containment fences..Lets look at reality. Scouting for most means driving to a food plot before dark and seeing how many deer are in the plot and where they are coming from..Food plots are like buffets they keep and attract the hungry, So while still being free ranging and "fair chase" they are being bribed to stay within range of the plots. Are food plots ethical even thought they are legal? Are feeders Ethical while being legal in some states? How many hybrid food plots grow naturally? Just what makes ethical hunters, is it the tool they use or the way these use the tool?

How does the implement of death change the fair chase aspect of hunting?


----------



## aceoky

Free Range said:


> OK now the president of the England Field Archery Association, is a “current politician” , so would the secretary of the UCBK be considered a politician too?
> 
> Well, then let's examine his "facts" shall we? "Not entirely true"......interesting
> according to him "crossbow were the major factor in crime, SO they outlawed ALL archery"......yeah right, instead of outlawing the crossbow, ANYONE buying that??? Didn't think so..... He IS president of an archery club, not in his best interest to admit, his type clubs changed the law, now is it??
> 
> MY FACT: I've proven they were BOTH outlawed, at the same exact time by the same exact bill, and told YOU why that happened, and exactly what lead up to it, beleive, or don't choose to believe, the truth does NOT depend on YOUR acceptance of it......
> 
> And we should take the word of you over the word of the President of probably the biggest archery association in England as to what went on in his own country??
> 
> 
> 
> So after this research you did, that brought you to this conclusion your next logical step was to run off and become the secretary of an up-start x-bow organization
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah, you're "right on base there', oh except for a few little details, I was a minor child when I learned about this, it certainly took me a long time to "run off, and start anything"...... and push for inclusion so as to NOT cause division???? That there is some sound logic, I think it might have been better to ask your x-bow toting brethren to stop causing all this division. After all, I your world England had a archery season until the x-bow guys wanted in, right?


Again, IF you insist on saying the "pro-side" is causing all of the division off up some REAL proof, I have proven beyond doubt (with REAL data) who exactly did what, and it WAS your beloved bow clubs, take the blame, don't try to push it on others who had NO part in it.....put up or shut up.....:wink: 

Fact is; there were NO pro-crossbow groups to cause division or anything else WE were formed to try to unite AND to give a level playing field, as much as possible being only one group against several others, however the RMEF, the N W T F and many many others came to support OUR cause, IF you wonder why that is, go back and read these posts it's NOT hard to understand at all!

YOU can from now on spew forth, WE caused or are causing division, fire away, I'm finished with you on that, I've proven who did exactly what and when they did, so.........IF you have some actual , factual proof otherwise, please post it, the very best you have, is trying to "spin" what was said after several LONG months of trying to negotiate with stubborn people who firmly beleived that IF they managed to delay this long enough everyone would get so sick and tired of it all it would "just simply go away", they were very wrong indeed (though many did get very tired of the whole thing......especially the division......but again WE had NO part in that, WE have every right to support our majoirity of hunter's wishes AND our Dept! THAT is not causing division, it's seeking unity.....any thinking person can easily see past this "spin' attempt.......thus there is NO need to continue to bring up your opinions of who is or was dividing ......those bow groups who AFTER the fact decided to fight the majority and the Dept.......are 100% responsible, had they left "well enough alone", and let the Dept the their job, the one they exist to do, and the vast majoirty approve of the job they're doing btw..........the rest would have NEVER occured, the blame lies 100% on THEM NO US......period...deal with the facts.....


----------



## Free Range

> Scouting for most means driving to a food plot before dark and seeing how many deer are in the plot and where they are coming from..


Really, most? I’m not sure how many hunters I know, but I’m sure it’s well into the hundreds, and I know of two that have food plots planted. Like I was telling Ace, I guess it boils down to what kind of “hunter” you hang around with.



> Just what makes ethical hunters, is it the tool they use or the way these use the tool?


Neither, but it’s surprising when you look in the hands of an ethical hunter just what you find. 



> Again, IF you insist on saying the "pro-side" is causing all of the division off up some REAL proof,


Fact, before, lets just pick a date, 1990, there was no real debate going on in KY about letting x-bows in. Hunters pretty much learned how to shoot a bow and joined the ranks of bow hunters, fact. Now, after 2005, when the x-bow was forced into most of archery season, there is division. Not all that hard to figure the cause and affect on that one now is it. 

Hey Jim, where you been, glad to see your still kicking.


----------



## aceoky

Fact, before, lets just pick a date, 1990, there was no real debate going on in KY about letting x-bows in. Hunters pretty much learned how to shoot a bow and joined the ranks of bow hunters, fact. Now, after 2005, when the x-bow was forced into most of archery season, there is division. Not all that hard to figure the cause and affect on that one now is it. 

.[/QUOTE]

FACT before 'picking a date as you did) before 1970 compounds were NOT allowed to be used in most states.....they are NOW though, why? 

Because, (and you should KNOW this) those who wanted them INCLUDED, fought for them, first by asking, then by using relevent facts .......exactly what has been done......

Fact #2, Individual HUNTERS asked several times for the inclusion of the crossbow, a survey was done, the data used from the survey and OVER FIVE YEARS of research into potential harm to the resources, it was THEN decided by the KDFWR to EXPAND the season.....to run exactly with archery season....

FACT #3 it was THEN you're "high and mighty" bow clubs AFTER THE FACT, of it being expanded fought it over a mere minor legal technicality........

FACT #4 THAT started ALL the division, when THEY decided to challeng not only the will of the majority BUT also the powers of the KDFWR (which they continue to do right now, which WILL be thier demise IMHO

The fact that other hunters didn't ask for it for 2,000 years or more means squat, once they did ask for it, the survey was done, it was determined to be a "good idea" AND the majoirty supported it.......period....nothing you've posted changes that.....and won't, again accept the blame for who did exactly what, YOUR side, caused 100% of the division and fighting, by deciding to fight OUR Dept AND the majority's wishes.......thier choice, their right, and their blame.......yes it is simple, and even with your "spin" it is...


----------



## Free Range

> "crossbow were the major factor in crime, SO they outlawed ALL archery"......


You need to learn how to follow a thought, that was nothing but a side bar, he was not making the connection of crimes committed with x-bows and the closing of the season. Myself I don’t quite follow the lack of space reason, but it does go to show how two people can interpret the same thing differently. And how things in England are much different then here. 



> MY FACT: I've proven they were BOTH outlawed, at the same exact time by the same exact bill, and told YOU why that happened, and exactly what lead up to it, beleive, or don't choose to believe, the truth does NOT depend on YOUR acceptance of it......


You did not, not here anyway, all you have done is state what you think caused it. 



> Yeah, you're "right on base there', oh except for a few little details, I was a minor child when I learned about this, it certainly took me a long time to "run off, and start anything"......


I never said how long it took you to run that far. You brought it up, as a cause and affect notion. (you read about this, and became a supporter of x-bows in archery season) You never said how long it took you to do so, and I never assumed I knew how long it took you either. 
So why didn’t you rebuke your x-bow brethren, for causing the extinction of bowhunting in England, after all it only happen after they tried to force their way into bow season, right???

Let this be a warning, do not try to expand x-bow season any more, we may lose all of bow season, if you continue on this path.


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## Free Range

Fact 1 came before fact 4? So if fact 4 came last, after fact 2 then fact 2 caused fact 4 right? 

Same with fact 3, it came after fact 2, so fact 2 must have caused fact 3, then it lead to fact 4. Again, you can’t get away from the fact, that this wouldn’t have ever happened if not for fact 2. 

And fact 1 has nothing to do with the facts at hand, this about the inclusion/intrusion into bow season, now, not then, we already lost that battle, but are still fight the war.


----------



## Free Range

> Posted by a guy in AL on another site
> Can't hardly call it "archery season" any more...Same way in Alabama. We lost to the M O N E Y ! Now we have crossguns and black powder in the season. Might as well call it "Whatever season". If the state sees a profit in it, maybe we can have grenade launchers and "deer mines" legalized next year!


I want you to pay attention to how he stated the part about “Now we have crossguns and black powder in the season” Kind of sounds like at one time there wasn’t but now there is. And what is next the dire prediction of one season, made by some? But of course we already know you are ok with that, if the resource can handle it, right?


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## aceoky

Free Range said:


> You need to learn how to follow a thought, that was nothing but a side bar, he was not making the connection of crimes committed with x-bows and the closing of the season. Myself I don’t quite follow the lack of space reason, but it does go to show how two people can interpret the same thing differently. And how things in England are much different then here.
> 
> 
> 
> You did not, not here anyway, all you have done is state what you think caused it.
> 
> YES I did, (hint: go back and read your first Hint: that was pasted directly from a "google search" *I* didn't type one single word of it, thus it's NOT my writing NOR what I think....at all.....thought you were interested in facts......guess not.....if you were you should have pulled up many of the exact same things, which state "crossbows and bows" were banned......AT THE SAME time......even a total moron, should be able to see, something is "odd there" Unless, "oh no", I'm correct.....then it makes perfect sense(and only then) most would have realized that, right then.....
> 
> 
> 
> I never said how long it took you to run that far. You brought it up, as a cause and affect notion. (you read about this, and became a supporter of x-bows in archery season) You never said how long it took you to do so, and I never assumed I knew how long it took you either.
> So why didn’t you rebuke your x-bow brethren, for causing the extinction of bowhunting in England, after all it only happen after they tried to force their way into bow season, right???
> 
> Nope NOT right, or correct at all; but for the sake of discussion, let's "run with that" idea.....
> 
> First to wish to be included is not "forcing".....
> It was the ARCHERS who took it to the legislature to get (or in your idea KEEP) the crossbows out of the sport...
> 
> THUS the lesson to be learned is, it's better to share than to lose it ALL....
> Let this be a warning, do not try to expand x-bow season any more, we may lose all of bow season, if you continue on this path.


OR .....how about this "tidbit" again.....United, we stand(as hunters) divided we fall(again as hunters), it's better to accept, others, than to* wish* you could still be doing what you used to do and love to do.....

But most can see the very obvious lesson here, ONLY those who refuse to accept truth, facts and relevent data, still wish to divide rather than to unite.....


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## twogun

> Neither, but it’s surprising when you look in the hands of an ethical hunter just what you find.


In a ethical crossbow hunter's hands you will find a crossbow; compound hunter's, a compound; gun hunter's, a gun; longbow hunter's, a longbow.


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## aceoky

Free Range said:


> I want you to pay attention to how he stated the part about “Now we have crossguns and black powder in the season” Kind of sounds like at one time there wasn’t but now there is. And what is next the dire prediction of one season, made by some? But of course we already know you are ok with that, if the resource can handle it, right?


That "thinking" is not only flawed, but absurd! And I will attempt to easily prove it.....

IN at least most states, which season is the "longest"??

OH, it is archery "bowseason", SOOOO any other season that is made, will either be made during and along with archery season, OR must be too early and hot, OR when the doe are carrying visably fawns........hmmm

Thus, it is NOT during, it is in addtion to(as any OTHER season must be, if sound game management comes into play which I for one believe is the case).......

Nice try, but to INCLUDE OR ADD seasons during the same time frame has nothing to do with any of this (UNLESS the bow is NOT allowed as well, ) 

Anyone can still carry their longbows if they so choose, nothing therefore is "lost" or "taken", simply another season along with "your season"(which again, IF it were, your season, obviously you'd never allow anyone who doesn't see things "your way"), we are mostly all glad it is NOT YOUR season, bet on that!


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## aceoky

twogun said:


> In a ethical crossbow hunter's hands you will find a crossbow; compound hunter's, a compound; gun hunter's, a gun; longbow hunter's, a longbow.


Exactly!

The weapon of choice has NOTHING to do with it.....

*I*, destroy several archery targets each year,(by shooting them, often with broadheads)
Also shoot several thousands of rifle rounds per year(I reload which helps there somewhat)
I also shoot about three pounds of Pyrodex through ML each and every year, which of these am I "least ethical with"???

More absurd claims, and as usual, NO facts to support them at all.....


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## aceoky

Fact 1, it was "done" and should have been left alone, nice to "jump past" 1 to 2 and *try *to blame the second fact rather than the first, it's just so simple, had it been left alone, that would have been that, just as those in Tenn are finding out, 'much ado about nothing" THEY fought it, thus the problmes ALL then began, NO way, you're "stepping around" that fact, YOU kept accusing US, NOW deal with the blame, that your "buddies"(and to some extent YOU ) caused....

NOW again, IF you wish to discuss the Ky issue, please let's do that in the "In KY" thread??? That is why I started it btw....


----------



## Free Range

> YES I did, (hint: go back and read your first Hint: that was pasted directly from a "google search" *I* didn't type one single word of it, thus it's NOT my writing NOR what I think....at all.....thought you were interested in facts......guess not.....if you were you should have pulled up many of the exact same things, which state "crossbows and bows" were banned......AT THE SAME time......even a total moron, should be able to see, something is "odd there" Unless, "oh no", I'm correct.....then it makes perfect sense(and only then) most would have realized that, right then.....


Again you fail to make any sense, so they were both banned at the same time, that proves it’s because the bow hunters wouldn’t share?? Here in Colorado leg hold and conibear traps were banned at the same time, are we to infer that one caused the banning of the other? All you have to do is post a link to the England Parliament proceedings, and the transcript showing that they banned bow hunting specifically because bow hunters wouldn’t let the x-bow in. It’s really simple. I have posted quotes from people that live in England, even the President of the E.F.A.A., stating the x-bow had nothing or little to do with the banning of bow hunting.


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## aceoky

NO......

FR, I don't "have to do anything"......period

I posted exactly what happend, and certain kinds of traps are IN NO way related to this anyway.....you are amazing and amusing at the same time...

I've already done, more, than I "had to" or needed to do.....and that was to try to prove something and explain why united is better than divided, obviously you don't agree much less believe the truth, that is NOT my problem, so feel free to beleive whatever you choose to do, it matter not to me at all........nor does it change the facts of this matter any......

Feel free to believe him over history, as well, again it makes 0 difference to me and does not change the facts....nor the truth, you should KNOW by now, I would have NEVER posted, it, much less "given you a hint" in goodwill, Unless, I was 100% certain......and I think you do know that....but either way , the truth will as always stand on it's own.....


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## thesource

Don't worry Free Range.

You have done such a wonderful job of discrediting his bologna already that noone listens or believes what he writes anyway.

Noone actually believes that bowhunters caused crossbows and bows to be banned in England.

Nice touch, by the way, contacting the President of the E.F.A.A.:darkbeer: That pretty much seals the deal.


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## cynic

Ace, don't feel bad These were the same guys that debated in the la crossbow debate. They talk alot but don't have anything to back it with. The proxbow provided ALL the data proving that the xbow was of no detriment to bow season. All statistics pointed to the inclusion, unfortunately the La pro-xbowers weren't in time for this legislative period but rest assured they are still moving ahead for the next session..AT deemed the pro-xbow winners of the debate hands down. I agree with the fact that xbows should have a season being with archery..Or either archery should consist of real archers and then stringed weapon of choice since the advantages of both the compound and xbow far out weigh the recurve or longbow.


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## aceoky

cynic said:


> Ace, don't feel bad These were the same guys that debated in the la crossbow debate. They talk alot but don't have anything to back it with. The proxbow provided ALL the data proving that the xbow was of no detriment to bow season. All statistics pointed to the inclusion, unfortunately the La pro-xbowers weren't in time for this legislative period but rest assured they are still moving ahead for the next session..AT deemed the pro-xbow winners of the debate hands down. I agree with the fact that xbows should have a season being with archery..Or either archery should consist of real archers and then stringed weapon of choice since the advantages of both the compound and xbow far out weigh the recurve or longbow.


Thank you;

But I can assure you(and everyone) I am NOT worried in the least, they are "mad" because of their tactics they can no longer post on some forums that I still post daily, and often........that's all it really is.....they did it to themselves, and can't handle the fact, I won't resort to their tactics, NO matter how hard they try to "push my buttons", it's "all good", WE have everything on our side, including ALL the history, from why archery is banned in England to the FACT that those states that have expanded are glad they did, and everything in between!!!!

They love to "spin" and accuse me of doing so, love to TRY to dispute my facts, but have to this point ALWAYS fallen short..........THEY don't like that, just as they call US "second class citizens" and we'll NEVER get the respect we seek........I think they are very wrong, and in fact think they are helping me and us do just that, but alas that is ONLY my thoughts on the subject.....

They think they help their cause with "crossguns"(any fool can see a crossbow is NOT a gun) or the new one (since they finally figured out the first) "stringuns", which is "negative" to "strings" which are used in ALL archery.......but they NEVER seem to learn.......ban after ban after ban.........they still seem to "think" that personal attacks serve them well, and somehow help them......the whole time they only prove what they really are, selfish , elite (in thier own minds only) snobs......who think "their way" is the "only way"..........oh well......at least I've tried to show them, that sharing is "good" for archery, their "loss" IF they choose to ignore the facts......


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## aceoky

No doubt that IS the reason I was falsely accused of a "threat".......to try to get revenge, and get me banned!

Oh, well even IF they manage to do that, I'd still be "way up on them", as they've been banned so much from so many places, and funny thing is; *I* never asked one mod to ban any of them(though I could have, and it would have happened, but only because they were breaking the rules, and that was pointed out several times , in fact on FR he stayed a couple of months longer only because I asked for them to not ban him.....fwiw).......

The point came when he "went too far", and he was "kicked' YET HE went on another forum and openly accused me of having him banned from that site........THAT is who we're dealing with.....so I have NO worries......and he knows I can back that up........fwiw.......


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## thesource

Incidentally, I only use "stringgun" since I saw that Bill Troubridge, owner of Excalibur crossbows, endorsed a title using the moniker.

I think it perfectly represents a crossbow. "String" represents the archery characteristics while "gun" ensures attention to the obvious gunlike features of stock, scope, trigger, and safety.

You can't be offended with me if a crossbow manufacturer coined the phrase, can you? 

LOL.


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## thesource

cynic said:


> Ace, don't feel bad These were the same guys that debated in the la crossbow debate.
> ..AT deemed the pro-xbow winners of the debate hands down.


LOL.:hurt: 

A PROcrossbow moderator IGNORED any facts provided by the opposition and DECLARED his side the winners.

That's something to write home about, right there. 

Its the same reason that pro-bowhunters get booted from crossbow forums. Your arguements cannot stand up to a fair fight, and your crossbow leaning moderators take matters into their own hands to right the sinking ship.

No worries. You are only fooling yourselves.:darkbeer:


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## fasst

Well I didn't read this entire thread, but I did read the first post, and several of the posts towards the end. No matter what happened in the past, lets get this thread friendly and back on track before we have to move it to the "Dark Side"....Fasst


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## cynic

thesource said:


> I think it perfectly represents a crossbow. "String" represents the archery characteristics while "gun" ensures attention to the obvious gunlike features of stock, scope, trigger, and safety.


So let me get this straight you realize it is archery because it has a string but it has a riser that resembles a gun. It has a release aid that resembles a trigger with safety features.


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## thesource

cynic said:


> So let me get this straight you realize it is archery because it has a string but it has a riser that resembles a gun. It has a release aid that resembles a trigger with safety features.


Nope, but nice try.

Crossbows have a _stock _and a _trigger_ and a _safety_, JUST LIKE A GUN. (Don't forget the scope)

That clear it up for ya, sport?


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## greenboy

source- compound shooters have a stock its there arms,a trigger its there release,an some put a scope on, or a range finder, crossbows are same u just will not addmit it. not much differance to me its all in your head,both are the same need to be in 1 season together. an i allways wait till the deers head is behind a tree,or bush, looking away,distracted , ect. before shooting. so draw a bow means little to me. trad bowhunters have a right to a week or two without compounders,an crossbow hunters.:darkbeer:


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## cynic

Okay lets get back to fair chase, Can some one tell me what the definition of fair chase is with out using the phrase xbow in anyway. Can any of the bowhunters deny using some sort of deception that gives them an "unfair" advantage of its intended game. Everywhere you look there is something to give the hunter some sort of advantage and is this advantage fair?

This reminds me of the phrase "fair fight" nothing is fair in a fight. Someone is taller, longer arms, heavier, stronger, faster.

Plz forgive me as I was distracted by the red type 
Fasst this is about the primitive season the *fair chase *is the other thread..


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## fasst

Correct you are Cynic.....after being in here and reading a few threads, they all seemed to blend together.


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## aceoky

Marvin:

I said:"

"Allowing crossbows does NOT force anyone to change how they hunt or with what weapon"

YOU said"

"( now wait a minute this is not entirely true),"

REALLY? then perhaps you can prove any way it's "not entirely true"??????? EXACTLY what do YOU or anyone else HAVE to give up?? 
*
Exactly* what is ANYONE able to do NOW that IF they allow the crossbow they WON'T be just as able to do??

Oh it IS "entirely true", just as I said......

EVery single hunter can stil hunt exactly as they always have hunted OR they can ALSO use a crossbow.......a "win-win" I'd say.....


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## aceoky

Let's "run with the gun thing," shall we??

Even a moderat gun(hand gun ) uses gun powder, and primer and bullets, does a crossbow??

THE "big and slow" "it"hand gun sends a 235 grain BULLET @ 835 FPS (from memory, but close).......does a crossbow OR any archery approach that speed AND USE GUNPOWDER and a PRIMER.....firing pin........hmmm

THEN one must conclude, based upon the FACTS crossbow are NOT and can NOT be considered guns.......

AND that is without having to factor in "trajectory" which guess what favors REAL GUNS again............SO archery IS NOT a gun, EVEN when it has a stock and trigger(and btw, a release used on a compound has a "trigger" so that is a "wash" at best........better "luck " next time though

IF " a stock" makes it a gun, how about one who makes stocks for a living.........is his inventory guns?? OR are they in FACT stocks??? ASK the ATF......

Also ask them what category the crossbow falls "into".......

EVEN most "city kids" know guns use gunpowder........do crossbows??(EVER heard of "archery powder"?):wink: 

IF it's an arrow launched by a string under tension, it's ARCHERY.........very simple to understand really IF one is interested in truth....and facts.......


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## thesource

aceoky said:


> EVEN most "city kids" know guns use gunpowder........do crossbows??(EVER heard of "archery powder"?):wink:
> 
> IF it's an arrow launched by a string under tension, it's ARCHERY.........very simple to understand really IF one is interested in truth....and facts.......


Somebody needs to slow down and read....LOL.

Noone said it was a gun. I said it has obvious gun-like features.....DUH.

You're obviously stuck looking at these things from a very simplistic point of view...

Gun - gunpowder
Archery - string.

The world is much more complex than this simpleton approach.

How would you define an air rifle? It obviously has no gunpowder and yet it is ..... what? a pellet gun, right?


----------



## Jim C

aceoky said:


> Marvin:
> 
> I said:"
> 
> "Allowing crossbows does NOT force anyone to change how they hunt or with what weapon"
> 
> YOU said"
> 
> "( now wait a minute this is not entirely true),"
> 
> REALLY? then perhaps you can prove any way it's "not entirely true"??????? EXACTLY what do YOU or anyone else HAVE to give up??
> *
> Exactly* what is ANYONE able to do NOW that IF they allow the crossbow they WON'T be just as able to do??
> 
> Oh it IS "entirely true", just as I said......
> 
> EVery single hunter can stil hunt exactly as they always have hunted OR they can ALSO use a crossbow.......a "win-win" I'd say.....


you have to understand the mentality of what you are dealing with. Most sensible people understand that allowing Joe to use an xbow in no way forces say Bob to use one either. HOwever, if Bob has tied his self esteem and own sense of self worth to his status as the great white bowhunter AND if the circles he seeks approval from also have the same cult like mentality, then in his own mind, the legalization of crossbows actually diminishes his own standing and self worth because his cult's values are being blasphemed by the infidel crossbow hunters. Furthermore, some person might confuse Brother Bob with say Jim C crossbow hunter and that again would devalue Bob's self worth.


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## Free Range

> the whole time they only prove what they really are, selfish , elite (in thier own minds only) snobs......



Ace, I can’t believe you would resort to such tactics as name calling. 



> Oh, well even IF they manage to do that, I'd still be "way up on them", as they've been banned so much from so many places, and funny thing is; *I* never asked one mod to ban any of them(though I could have, and it would have happened, but only because they were breaking the rules, and that was pointed out several times , in fact on FR he stayed a couple of months longer only because I asked for them to not ban him.....fwiw).......


Your funny, Ace, if pointing out your inaccuracies is breaking the rules, then I’m glad to be banned. And of course you haven’t broken any rules on any of these forums? 



> The point came when he "went too far", and he was "kicked' YET HE went on another forum and openly accused me of having him banned from that site........THAT is who we're dealing with.....so I have NO worries......and he knows I can back that up........fwiw.......


Please do, I don’t remember accusing you of having me banned, if I remember right I said "are you trying to get me banned from here too". As in being banned from this site also, not as in I thought you personally had me banned. Believe it or not I have had plenty of personal correspondents with the mod of the KY site, and I know exactly why he banned me, and I don’t remember your name ever coming up, it might have but I don’t remember it. All you have to do is ask Duster if I accused you of having me banned, in any of the PM’s we had back a forth. 



> EVEN most "city kids" know guns use gunpowder........do crossbows??(EVER heard of "archery powder"?)


So what would a city kid call a airgun, Ace?


----------



## aceoky

JimC, thanks that does, help, at least in why something so obvious is overlooked! 

Show us an airgun, that launces an arrow tipped broadhead by the use of energy stored in the limbs via a string, and I can agree, otherwise, gunpowder or not, it doesn't equate to archery , not to me, those mentioned are required, and guess what, all archery does, just that, including the crossbow.....


----------



## Marvin

aceoky said:


> Show us an airgun, that launces an arrow tipped broadhead by the use of energy stored in the limbs via a string, and I can agree, otherwise, gunpowder or not, it doesn't equate to archery , not to me, those mentioned are required, and guess what, all archery does, just that, including the crossbow.....


 thats kind of an elistist type answer if Ihave ever heard one. There are hundreds upon thousands of canadians wanting the right to use airguns in bow season. There is no boom you know. Probably quieter than your your crossguns.


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## aceoky

Marvin said:


> thats kind of an elistist type answer if Ihave ever heard one. There are hundreds upon thousands of canadians wanting the right to use airguns in bow season. There is no boom you know. Probably quieter than your your crossguns.



Well, then I guess, I'd best get busy and help out my invisible Canadian membership and see if we can make it happen! :darkbeer: 

Seriously, though, that is up to the Canadian government, to decide, if they allow them, they're allowed, they still don't shoot arrows and broadheads though crossbows do....

I have no idea what a "crossgun" is, never seen a picture of one.......don't think they exist, wonder what they are a "cross" between? OR are they shaped like the Holy cross??

Webster's and a couple of enclylopedias don't seem to list them either, seems no such thing exists.......typical.....


----------



## aceoky

ME "the whole time they only prove what they really are, selfish , elite (in thier own minds only) snobs...... " 



Free Range "Ace, I can’t believe you would resort to such tactics as name calling. "

That's too funny! Certainly I would, but NOT for the same reasons as you guys have been doing, *I* did it to 

A.) point out how "silly" it is.....
B.) how fast you would "jump on it"
C.) that it in no way helps the conversation
D.) YOU guys said, calling things as one sees them isn't
E.) but then YOU say it is......"odd"


HOW is that any different than YOU calling our UCBK, the one's guilty of the "divisions' and "ill will" etc? Which btw, NO one has proven that....I have proven who exactly stated the "mess" and it was your beloved "bow clubs".....which are the guilty parties....

AT any rate, now that you guys can clearly see how it looks from the "other side", pehaps we can get back to mere facts and data, and leave this "silly" personal stuff out(as I've asked umpteen times already to no avail, so far).....

BTW when you *attempt * "to point out my inaccuracies", you must have more than an opinion with which to debate facts and data.......duh You have always failed in a "big way" in doing, that, and instead try to discredit those with YOUR opinions or often the opinions you repeat which are dircetly from a few bow club sites, YES I've read their BS OPINIONS.....and though cleverly written are NOT based upon facts.....they are mere mortal's opinions.....

YOU and THEY keep pointing at Ohio, and how the crossbow has "ruined" archery there......that's too funny, IN their/your opinion! 

MOST hunters, seem to agree that things are GREAT in Ohio, after 3 decades of crossbow use! In fact they still have a long(and just extended by 11 more days) ARCHERY season, that guns have NOT taken over, so much for YOUR " let crossbows in, and we'll have an ANY weapon season and NO more archery, YOU can't back that up , since WE all know it has NEVER happened anywhere).......Not to mention several "Book Bucks"

That fact however has not stopped YOU from saying it again in the past few days! Show us some facts and data, IF you can........that would support this "any weapon season" and how and where it's occured.......then we can discuss this as gentlemen.......


----------



## Marvin

aceoky said:


> Well, then I guess, I'd best get busy and help out my invisible Canadian membership and see if we can make it happen! :darkbeer:
> 
> Seriously, though, that is up to the Canadian government, to decide, if they allow them, they're allowed, they still don't shoot arrows and broadheads though crossbows do....
> 
> I have no idea what a "crossgun" is, never seen a picture of one.......don't think they exist, wonder what they are a "cross" between? OR are they shaped like the Holy cross??
> 
> Webster's and a couple of enclylopedias don't seem to list them either, seems no such thing exists.......typical.....



I found the first ten memebers of the UCBK

1. Multidigits - Kentuck - Tom Conley
2. Dustin Conely - Kentuck
3. Bob Stout - wisconsin
4. John Simpson
5. Jerry Karr
6. Gary Windom
7.Robert Sanders - believe he is from PA
8. Woody Williams - indiana
9. Franklin Clifton
10 Paul Harp
11. M.H. Cooper - ohio
12. Randy Sims
13. Dan Hendricks of the American Crossbow Federation Minnesota


Canadians - digger, AW, 3 Johnsons ( family memebership),Lone wolf ,Armadias, kendo kid ...just to name a few


And your plea for desperation


By woody williams. 
"Since in most areas crossbowers are in a big minority we ALL need to help one another out."
"Some folks joined in right away even though they knew they would probably never hunt Kentucky."

Don't worry I am working on the rest


----------



## Jim C

Marvin said:


> I found the first ten memebers of the UCBK
> 
> 1. Multidigits - Kentuck - Tom Conley
> 2. Dustin Conely - Kentuck
> 3. Bob Stout - wisconsin
> 4. John Simpson
> 5. Jerry Karr
> 6. Gary Windom
> 7.Robert Sanders - believe he is from PA
> 8. Woody Williams - indiana
> 9. Franklin Clifton
> 10 Paul Harp
> 11. M.H. Cooper - ohio
> 12. Randy Sims
> 13. Dan Hendricks of the American Crossbow Federation Minnesota
> 
> 
> Canadians - digger, AW, 3 Johnsons ( family memebership),Lone wolf ,Armadias, kendo kid ...just to name a few
> 
> 
> And your plea for desperation
> 
> 
> By woody williams.
> "Since in most areas crossbowers are in a big minority we ALL need to help one another out."
> "Some folks joined in right away even though they knew they would probably never hunt Kentucky."
> 
> Don't worry I am working on the rest


I sent them a check a few months ago-whether I am a member or not -I know not

My in laws have land in Kentucky and I can see KY from my office


----------



## Free Range

> HOW is that any different than YOU calling our UCBK, the one's guilty of the "divisions' and "ill will" etc? Which btw, NO one has proven that....I have proven who exactly stated the "mess" and it was your beloved "bow clubs".....which are the guilty parties....


It’s not, and that is no different then you saying we caused the division. I call the kettle black, and if you can’t handle that then to bad, but don’t come here and say you are above name calling and will not resort to those tactics when clearly you have, and do. 



> BTW when you attempt "to point out my inaccuracies", you must have more than an opinion with which to debate facts and data.......duh You have always failed in a "big way" in doing, that, and instead try to discredit those with YOUR opinions or often the opinions you repeat which are dircetly from a few bow club sites, YES I've read their BS OPINIONS.....and though cleverly written are NOT based upon facts.....they are mere mortal's opinions.....


Cool, lets start all over, you post one fact that proves the x-bow is good for bow hunting. 



> That fact however has not stopped YOU from saying it again in the past few days! Show us some facts and data, IF you can........that would support this "any weapon season" and how and where it's occured.......then we can discuss this as gentlemen.......


Fact AL has bow hunting x-bow hunting and ML hunting at the same time, not the whole season, but some of it. I say it’s because of the x-bow, could be wrong, but hey if the banning of the x-bow and bow at the same time proves it’s the bow hunters fault then I can say this.


----------



## Marvin

Jim C said:


> I sent them a check a few months ago-whether I am a member or not -I know not
> 
> My in laws have land in Kentucky and I can see KY from my office


 I was surprised you were not in the top ten. no bigge though:darkbeer:


----------



## Jim C

Marvin said:


> I was surprised you were not in the top ten. no bigge though:darkbeer:


maybe they lost the check  :wink:


----------



## thesource

aceoky said:


> JimC, thanks that does, help, at least in why something so obvious is overlooked!
> 
> Show us an airgun, that launces an arrow tipped broadhead by the use of energy stored in the limbs via a string, and I can agree, otherwise, gunpowder or not, it doesn't equate to archery , not to me, those mentioned are required, and guess what, all archery does, just that, including the crossbow.....


No.

Address the issue, not-so-artful dodger. Your simpleton view of guns has been proven errant. Your simpleton view of archery is errant as well.

Your definition of archery involves a string. For many (70% here at AT) it is only about a bow and an arrow. For the VAST majority of states it is about a bow and an arrow, including Ohio which has a separate definition for bow and crossbow. Why do think that is?

Guess what YOUR state defines as archery equipment? 
_Archery equipment: a long bow, recurve bow or compound bow incapable of holding an arrow at full or partial draw without aid from the archer._
OMG - I LOVE IT!!!!!!!!!:banana: 

I am ROFLMAO.


----------



## Jim C

thesource said:


> No.
> 
> Address the issue, not-so-artful dodger. Your simpleton view of guns has been proven errant. Your simpleton view of archery is errant as well.
> 
> Your definition of archery involves a string. For many (70% here at AT) it is only about a bow and an arrow. For the VAST majority of states it is about a bow and an arrow, including Ohio which has a separate definition for bow and crossbow. Why do think that is?
> 
> Guess what YOUR state defines as archery equipment?
> _Archery equipment: a long bow, recurve bow or compound bow incapable of holding an arrow at full or partial draw without aid from the archer._
> OMG - I LOVE IT!!!!!!!!!:banana:
> 
> I am ROFLMAO.



hundreds of posts and the source still cannot explain the most pertinent question


----------



## doctariAFC

:moviecorn :moviecorn :moviecorn

and the beat goes on.....


----------



## oldbhtrnewequip

*Source...interesting info*

Here's what's going on at Bass Pro in Destin FL.

I had a short chat with a woman in the bowhunting section. 

She indicated that there appears to be quite a resurgence going on in the number of recurves and longbows that they have been selling and expect to sell. They have been on the uptick lately. They got a bunch of new ones in 3 days ago. There is no separate season for them in FL she said. I don't know if there is one anywhere. 

When asked "How many (long/recurve) were you selling last year compared to compounds...1 to 20?" She said "heavens no...more like 1:30 or 1:40, but that's all changing now.....We have people coming in and asking for 'em now where before it was once in a blue moon." 

From the way they were stocked...I'd have to say the numbers were more like 1:8/10 for long/recurve:compound. Apparently the expect a change, or just need that number of bows in for differentiation. I'd say they had 10-15.

FWIW.

Oh yeah...where were we? 

Primitive season discussion that got hijacked. There is a lot of discussion going on that doesn't have anything to do with where we got to.

It'd be such a shame to have all of that discussion go to waste and not move forward.

Let's bring it back in.
Where do you stand on my proposal?


----------



## cynic

Some are talking that since the crossbow got its season here(in Fl), that maybe the Traditionals can take advantage and get some time to themselves. Either way I'm prepared.


----------



## KOhunter

Can't somebody put these half dozen children in a room and let them beat the crap out of each other and then let the rest of us beat on the one that comes out. It seems the only way to get any peace on this forum is shut these guys up. Personally, I wouldn't want to hunt with any of you cry babies. I can't believe you guys have the balls to get on here and beat this thing the way you do. GIVE IT A REST ALREADY!!!


----------



## Free Range

Make that a half dozen and one, LOL


----------



## cynic

Free Range said:


> Make that a half dozen and one, LOL


Did you feel left out?


----------



## Free Range

No I just thought it was funny that KOhunter would come here and say what he did, in fact joining in on what he was condemning, so the “and one” was KOhunter


----------



## KOhunter

OK, you can call me the and "one". :wink: 
It's just you guys remind me sometimes of a two year old who doesn't get his way...stomps around, throws himself on the floor, rolls around and screams.  The basic premise of this thread was lost days ago.
Do I think primitive hunting should have their own season?...maybe. If anybody has a gripe it would be these guys. Personally if you want to lump weapons into seasons...I would put primitive archery and "true" black powder guns in one season, and xbows and compounds in another. Comparing xbows and todays compounds to longbows, is like comparing flintlocks to todays inline muzzle loaders. This whole weapons thing is ridiculous. Do we also create seperate seasons for the guy who wants to hunt with his 30/30 and iron sights, as opposed to the guy with his 300 Win. mag and 3x9 scope? Anyway you guys have fun...and nock yourselves out. :teeth:


----------



## oldbhtrnewequip

KOhunter said:


> Do I think primitive hunting should have their own season?...maybe.


Please don't look at it from the perspective of "gripe" but from the perspective of heritage preservation and challenge. Primitive hunters (which traditional is based on) are doing something special that doesn't a align itself with technology advancement.



KOhunter said:


> Personally if you want to lump weapons into seasons...I would put primitive archery and "true" black powder guns in one season, and xbows and compounds in another. Comparing xbows and todays compounds to longbows, is like comparing flintlocks to todays inline muzzle loaders. This whole weapons thing is ridiculous. Do we also create seperate seasons for the guy who wants to hunt with his 30/30 and iron sights, as opposed to the guy with his 300 Win. mag and 3x9 scope? Anyway you guys have fun...and nock yourselves out. :teeth:


The point of the exercise is to NOT lump weapons into one season. Some bowhunters here have repeatedly voice displeasure with the allowance of Muzzleloaders into bow season. This allows preservation of challenge (distance and accuracy) and the use of a bow vs. including powder. It wouldn't be safe, unless everyone wore blaze orange. The traditional bowhunters I know don't want a single season with Muzzleloaders....flintlock only or not.


----------



## cynic

I for 1 think that we as hunters have forgotten each other as fellow hunters and what has been taken away and what has been changed in order to appease individual groups. In order to correct many problems you have to get back to basics, wipe the slate and start over. Who are the first to say no to a season originally put in place for Traditional Archery, right, compound users they don't want to give up any of THEIR season. Who is the first to argue about the inclusion of x-bow right again, compound users. IMO the reason is clear why they would not favor giving the true archers some time without the multitude of others in the woods, laziness and greed. They haven't the skills,patience or time to become accomplished with a traditional recurve, they need the advantage of the extra 20yds and 100fps or they will go home empty handed. The ease of use and advantages of the compound has changed archery but worse has changed hunters. Hunters used to be a brotherhood all hunters bow hunters, gun hunters,dog hunters,still hunters, trappers. There were no elite groups that rallied against other hunters. Now hunters and non-hunters fight other hunting forms, Now you have Still hunters fighting the use of dogs. You have QDM lease hunters fighting neighbor leases that don't feel like they do. Then you have a group that is included in *all* seasons that fight against every other group that might be able to hunt during THEIR season. Why is that, Funny thing though those fighting aren't the traditional archers it is the ones that fought to get into traditional archery, the ones that fought for acceptance and now accepts no-one unlike themselves and even after agreeing that they changed the original form of archery aren't willing to give anything back but would be willing to take more.


----------



## thesource

cynic said:


> Then you have a group that is included in *all* seasons that fight against every other group that might be able to hunt during THEIR season. Why is that, Funny thing though those fighting aren't the traditional archers it is the ones that fought to get into traditional archery, the ones that fought for acceptance and now accepts no-one unlike themselves and even after agreeing that they changed the original form of archery aren't willing to give anything back but would be willing to take more.


This is simply untrue. Go to Leatherwall, bring up crossbows, and take measure of traditional hunters' acceptance of them. You will get a quite vocal response.

Incidentally, at least 2 of the people you oppose routinely here are traditional archers. That pretty much shoots your theory to heck.


----------



## cynic

thesource said:


> This is simply untrue. Go to Leatherwall, bring up crossbows, and take measure of traditional hunters' acceptance of them. You will get a quite vocal response.
> 
> Incidentally, at least 2 of the people you oppose routinely here are traditional archers. That pretty much shoots your theory to heck.


I would say that the true traditional archery bowhunters would be against the compound also if they were truly apposed to xbow


----------



## Free Range

Cynic
You know that was a pretty good post, I don’t agree with some of your conclusions, but it was thought out and I believe for once you are coming from the heart. 
I don’t know how old you are, but likely you are like the rest of us here, and are old enough to have been around the block a time or two. When I really started hunting, to me that came when I started going out without my dad, back in the late 70’s, your right, there wasn’t as much division. Or should we say the information age had not yet arrived and the division was not as noticeable. Another thing, back then, at least in rural KS, a guy could get easy access to private land. The competition for places to hunt was minimal, I’m sure back east it might have already started getting harder to find areas to hunt, but still not so bad as today. Now some 30 years later, with the lose of habitat and with more farm’s being leased out to the highest bidder the competition for a place to hunt is even greater and getting worse by the day. 
Back then the hound hunter didn’t infringe one the still hunter, the gun hunter didn’t mind the bow hunter having first crack at the deer, the quail hunter didn’t bother the deer hunter. People were spread out more, and there wasn’t the trophy craze we have today either. Now the gun hunter is afraid the bow hunter will kill the trophy before he does, the hound hunter is forced to hunt the same ground as still hunters, the quail hunter is more likely to walk up on a deer hunter sitting in a tree stand. 
We are getting squeezed in from all sides, and like anyone else we don’t want to change. We see the x-bow as just a way for the greedy trophy hunting gun hunter to weasel in on the early season. 
Way back when, when ML seasons were getting started around the country, they got the week before bow season, in KS anyway, because 1) there weren’t very many people using them, and 2) they were a short range weapon. Now with the inline scoped ML they are not even close to what they were and the gun hunters are flocking to them. Why? Not because of some deep seeded longing to return to the old days, like the first ML guys did, but because now they can with little effort, and minimal knowledge pick up a in-line put a scope one it and have basically a single shot center fire weapon. Allowing them to hunt the early season, undisturbed deer that are still in their summer feeding patterns. In affect giving them first crack at the trophies. 

Now that still isn’t good enough, now they want to have first crack, and, they want to hunt the pre-rut, and rut. Which in most cases is during bow season, so what do they do, well the easiest route would be the x-bow, so lets push the x-bow into archery season. That is the perception of this x-bow push. 

Personally I could care less about the trophy aspect of hunting, don’t get me wrong, I like big horns as well as the next guy, but it doesn’t drive me as a hunter. If it would stop all this crap I would gladly give up first shot, and the pre-rut, rut, post rut. You can have it, if I just wanted to kill big animals I would be hunting with a gun. And I wouldn’t feel the need to be hunting in the rut, heck if you can’t kill a B&C deer with a gun at anytime of the year, then there are none in your area or you just don’t know how to hunt.

This isn’t going to stop, as long as the x-bow guys are trying to force themselves into archery season there will be a fight, the quickest way to stop all the fighting would be for the x-bow guys to drop their push for inclusion into archery season. We know that won’t happen, there is to much greed for a shot at trophy deer hunting with relatively unpressured deer. So as Doc said the beat goes on. We will know in the next five years who is right. Ohio and a couple states have had them for years but it has only been in the last few years that the growth has been. You can bet it won’t take 30 years for KY, VA, GA, AL to see the stampede of gun hunters coming over to archery season, for their chance at the trophy hunting in the pre thru post rut. This is my prediction, the cost of land to lease will climb dramatically, in these states, the number of out of staters will increase dramatically, and within 10 years the season will be shortened, or, the tags will be limited in some way.


----------



## aceoky

Free Range, while you made some valid points, :darkbeer: 

You need to do some "back East" research, and see just how many of the states you've "predicted", about "gun hunters" flocking to the crossbow, to hunt the rut etc. Already Alow MODERN Guns in the rut!! (hint Ky has for YEARS).......so THAT is not a factor at all......

Also we have the "post rut" covered pretty well, with the late ML season :cocktail: (btw crossbows are legal during ALL gun seasons as well, and have been for years, but they just haven't "taken over"......even as easily as we can obtain a disability permit) 

As I've said so otten "much ado about nothing".......

I still have seen NO facts or DATA, that supports what is "lost" by allowing another archery weapon during any archery season, NO one, not one person is forced to change how THEY hunt........are they??? NO, thus, it's REALY about trying to "mandate" or "dictate", if one prefers, what other hunters may and may not use......I agree with Cynic, it was better when hunters remained united, and WE really NEED to "get back to that"!!

It's better for everyone, let others hunt as they wish, and you do the same, NOT so complicated, so long as one doesn't mind sharing a little bit; and honestly most will never notice the differnece anyway, where THEY hunt, as has been proven in several states, where even those who fought it (inclusion) so hard, admit " I could NOT tell anything different, it did NOT affect/effect me or my hunting at all" ) etc.......

It's simply about another choice! And choice is a "good thing", especially when it's not "fought" against by other hunters!!


----------



## aceoky

Jim C said:


> I sent them a check a few months ago-whether I am a member or not -I know not
> 
> My in laws have land in Kentucky and I can see KY from my office


Send me a PM with your real name etc. and I WILL make sure you are! (I'm pretty sure that you are now)

Check out our wesite at

http://ucbk.org

If you'd rather check with us there?? Or just want some nice things to read/post about without any of this......:darkbeer:


----------



## Marvin

aceoky said:


> ..
> 
> ......I agree with Cynic, it was better when hunters remained united, and WE really NEED to "get back to that"!!
> 
> It's better for everyone, let others hunt as they wish, and you do the same, NOT so complicated, so long as one doesn't mind sharing a little bit; and honestly most will never notice the differnece anyway, where THEY hunt, as has been proven in several states, where even those who fought it (inclusion) so hard, admit " I could NOT tell anything different, it did NOT affect/effect me or my hunting at all" ) etc.......
> 
> It's simply about another choice! And choice is a "good thing", especially when it's not "fought" against by other hunters!!


 I for one was born with a backbone( insert spine here) and was taught to fight for what i believe in to the end. It has been my experience that we are no "better off" having crossbows. They have contirubted nothing and given nothing back to bowhunting IMHO. I like to compare the crossbow to welfare. give a nickel and they will expect the dime next. Make it the honorable sport it is. We might as well try to get the internet hunting issues passed so more people can have choices. We wouldn't want them to not have something they already have.


----------



## thesource

Marvin said:


> I like to compare the crossbow to welfare. give a nickel and they will expect the dime next.


Interesting. Recently I have been comparing crossbows to the illegal immigration issue.

A bunch of people who don't belong here DEMANDING that they be given all the rights and priveledges that others have patiently earned by following the rules.


----------



## Jim C

thesource said:


> Interesting. Recently I have been comparing crossbows to the illegal immigration issue.
> 
> A bunch of people who don't belong here DEMANDING that they be given all the rights and priveledges that others have patiently earned by following the rules.



more manifestations of the OCD problem again

what did compound hunters earn Source?

you have a rather inane concept of rights and privileges

you sound like a white guy whining that blacks did nothing to earn the right to vote


----------



## Jim C

Marvin-so how are compound archers all honorable and crossbow hunters not honorable? its a RECREATIONAL ACTIVITY


----------



## cynic

Marvin said:


> I for one was born with a backbone( insert spine here)
> And just below the spine is "what"
> and was taught to fight for what i believe in to the end. It has been my experience that we are no "better off" having crossbows.
> But no worse off
> But you have limited your experiences
> They have contirubted nothing and given nothing back to bowhunting IMHO.
> And the compound did what honor amongst thieves
> I like to compare the crossbow to welfare. give a nickel and they will expect the dime next. Make it the honorable sport it is.
> It is not a sport it is a recreation
> We might as well try to get the internet hunting issues passed so more people can have choices. We wouldn't want them to not have something they already have.


But unlike the welfare that only wanted a little more, greed has over come you and you want it all to yourself. So who is better the welfare recipeint wanting a little more or the ones greed driven that want it all


----------



## Free Range

> You need to do some "back East" research, and see just how many of the states you've "predicted", about "gun hunters" flocking to the crossbow, to hunt the rut etc. Already Alow MODERN Guns in the rut!! (hint Ky has for YEARS).......so THAT is not a factor at all......


I thought you were mad because someone bragged about keeping the x-bow out of the pre/rut, in KY. Now you’re telling me you can already hunt the rut, and post rut but that isn’t enough?? Gee Ace, and who was it you said was greedy? 



> I still have seen NO facts or DATA, that supports what is "lost" by allowing another archery weapon during any archery season, NO one, not one person is forced to change how THEY hunt........are they???


Nor have I seen any fact supporting the claim that the x-bow will be a good thing for bow season. So what is your point? If you want to call for facts how about you start first, with, here let me spell it slowly for you, F.A.C.T.S, showing a over all benefit for bow hunting, by allowing the x-bow in. That's not already a benefit by using one in another season. 

Oh and you guys keep calling it a recreation, again the majority are against you on this one, Hey Ace you like surveys, tell them that since I have a poll saying most bow hunters don’t consider bow hunting a recreation, they should accept it and stop calling it a recreation.


----------



## Marvin

Free Range said:


> I thought you were mad because someone bragged about keeping the x-bow out of the pre/rut, in KY. Now you’re telling me you can already hunt the rut, and post rut but that isn’t enough?? Gee Ace, and who was it you said was greedy?
> 
> 
> 
> Nor have I seen any fact supporting the claim that the x-bow will be a good thing for bow season. So what is your point? If you want to call for facts how about you start first, with, here let me spell it slowly for you, F.A.C.T.S, showing a over all benefit for bow hunting, by allowing the x-bow in. That's not already a benefit by using one in another season.
> 
> Oh and you guys keep calling it a recreation, again the majority are against you on this one, Hey Ace you like surveys, tell them that since I have a poll saying most bow hunters don’t consider bow hunting a recreation, they should accept it and stop calling it a recreation.



UT OH FREE RANGE LOOKS LIKE WE HAVE A WINNER HERE....Can we technically call him a liar NOW? 10th times a charm right?


----------



## cynic

amazing after all the facts during the debate you still want more..How soon you guys forget but then again it would be unfair to ask small minded people to remember the past facts


----------



## aceoky

Free Range said:


> I thought you were mad because someone bragged about keeping the x-bow out of the pre/rut, in KY. Now you’re telling me you can already hunt the rut, and post rut but that isn’t enough?? Gee Ace, and who was it you said was greedy?
> 
> Mad? I dont' think so, angry, upset, denied "due process" YES.....but "mad" NO, AND again, it's NOT the "what we got" that I'm upset about, it's the HOW, AND the fact those who had a part in THAT loved to brag and rub our noses.....in IT......SO since (again) all was and IS still in OUR favor, they WILL regret that choice......IT always came down to choice.....no more or no less......YOU tried(in vain) to BLAME US for the mess and the "division", I already have proven multiple times hoiw much YOU know.....yet YOU never quit with the personal crap.........HOW about this Tim.......HOW come I can't find ONE single post YOU took the time to post FROM HOME?? YOU ALWAYS ONLY have time to post your drivel from your construction site.......WHY? ARE YOU NOT ALLOWED AN OPINION AT HOME?? OR is it just NOT that important to YOU to use YOUR time??? SEE YOU like to mention ME, guess what, I've asked nicely the last time......by now YOU should realize that *I* can easily see where YOU post from........last chance for me to "be nice"......YOU drop the personal crap, OR wish you did.......even YOU can "get that"??
> 
> 
> 
> Nor have I seen any fact supporting the claim that the x-bow will be a good thing for bow season.
> YES YOU have, in fact several, BUT, YOU can't, and neither can your little group show ONE good reason to exclude/omit them.....period
> 
> So what is your point? If you want to call for facts how about you start first, with, here let me spell it slowly for you, F.A.C.T.S, showing a over all benefit for bow hunting, by allowing the x-bow in. That's not already a benefit by using one in another season.
> 
> MORE OPPORTUNITY..........for those who don't or CAN'T archery hunt with "conventional bows"........AND IT HURTS NO ONE BTW
> 
> Oh and you guys keep calling it a recreation, again the majority are against you on this one, Hey Ace you like surveys, tell them that since I have a poll saying most bow hunters don’t consider bow hunting a recreation, they should accept it and stop calling it a recreation.


HEY Tim, why not tell everyone HOW I only accepted a posistion with the UCBK , ONLY one week before YOU made it like I was always there??? OR HOW you know MY position?? NO see, you and your "group", ARE fighting a "losing battle", period, and IF that weren't bad enough, YOU all are doing it AT THE COST of us all! THAT is indeed sad........and what's worse(that is sad enough) IS YOU don't have ONE good reason for doing so......and a very few of you , actually see ME "running" , for stating the facts of why you're losing........

SAD, desparate, but I've seen this all before.....here, and I assure you, it's a "losing proposition" for YOU all, and for us ALL.......


----------



## aceoky

Marvin said:


> UT OH FREE RANGE LOOKS LIKE WE HAVE A WINNER HERE....Can we technically call him a liar NOW? 10th times a charm right?


Marvin; please feel free to call ME whatever you like, how does that change facts and truth?? NOW please back up your 10 times claim........while YOU are at it......back up YOUR saying that *I* am payed by the UCBK.....I've waited quite awhile for that ONE thing...

SHALL I continue??

FACT...........*I* have stated FACTS........backed up by other FACTS AND DATA.......meanwhile all YOU guys have managed to do , is to TRY to "cast doubt" on that with speculations, accusations and inuendo.......NO sale....

ALL the while, WE (here) have given YOU GUYS, more than ample oppotunity to disprove ANYTHING, with RELEVENT FACTS AND DATA...........WHY are we all still waiting........


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## thesource

aceoky said:


> ... guess what, I've asked nicely the last time......by now YOU should realize that *I* can easily see where YOU post from........last chance for me to "be nice"......YOU drop the personal crap, OR wish you did.......even YOU can "get that"??.


Now THAT is clearly threatening!!!

Get your stuff together, Ace, or get out. There is no reason to talk to any AT member like this!

If you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen. That means leave. There is NO EXCUSE for threatening someone simply because you disagree with his / her opinion.

Cut it out.


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## fasst

I also see too many personal attacks here. I can't watch all the threads all the time, but the one's I do see, and the one's that get reported to me, will get an instant lock from here on out. It is apparent that a few folks here need to learn to agree to disagree. Fasst


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