# You can lead a horse to water... (coaching thread)



## Viper1 (Aug 21, 2003)

John -

That's a good and timely question, for lot of us I think.

I've become more and more pragmatic over the years. 
The more I see a student "doing", ie progressing, the more time I'll put in.
When I see some one stagnating (repeating the same "mistakes", despite having to reteach the technique), I start to back off on the time I spend with them. 
Basically, they have to complete "A" before they can move on to "B". 
The reason can be a real mental block or a lack of practicing "smart" or just not practicing. 
The former I can and do work through, the latter not so much. 

Yes, it's a weed out process. 
See, I don't think there's any real benefit in just seeing the number of shooters growing, without the quality - but, I'm not in marketing or doing this for a living 

Like you, I don't charge for my time and any time I spend teaching or coaching takes away from my own shooting time, and that's getting scarcer and scarcer.

It's not my job to make someone *want *to be an archer or a great archer, it's my job to give them the necessary tools. If they choose to use those tools, then my time is well spent, if they choose not to, I can't afford the time to waste, and I mean that in a nicer way than is sounds. 

Viper1 out.


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## Moebow (Jul 8, 2010)

I'm pretty much with Viper!! I will give them the tools, freely and with dedication but what they decide to do as far a practice, or just using the tools is totally up to them. I will not "force feed" them. If they want it they got it, if not, I have better things to do.

Arne


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Tony, I hear what you're saying, and you're probably right.

For years, I thought the ones who were struggling just needed MORE of my time and attention than those who were progressing well. I mean, that's what all the new-age teaching methods would tell you right? 

Then after a while you realize the co-dependency you have created, and that the lazy or disinterested ones can suck all the time away from the dedicated ones if you let them. I have known students that literally won't practice unless they are in my presence, even though I've told them time and time again they have to get their arrows in between sessions or it won't ever work. Then since they haven't practiced, you have to spend even more time re-teaching them what you taught them the last few times you saw them.

From a personal time and energy standpoint, I sometimes struggle with how much responsibility I have as a coach to "motivate" my archers to train. Many coaches know what a delicate balancing act it is between encouraging their students to reach for the stars while keeping their feet on the ground, so to speak.

I'd love to hear some tools that have worked, or some stories of experience. A "lessons learned" sort of thing.


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## aaronpv2 (Sep 9, 2012)

Your explanation of Archery as being an inherently individualized activity, may actually be what draws out those with either true potential for the sport or those willing to put the effort to see the gains in achieving better.

I asked this question to a good friend of mine who struggles with this in her own field of instruction. She is a Music teacher and for the most part, what she teaches, violin and piano are far from being social activities.

As I have expressed and made the analogy to JOAD Program I assist in, It will be very difficult to excel if the only time one draws a bow back is during practice, just as a Music students will never play an instrument well without, individual practice outside of instruction.

In an abbreviated answer She told me, that the pressure to perform outside of instruction in a public recital, is what pushes Students to practice outside of instruction.

This will most certainly weed out those that do not have the commitment to continue on their own.

As far as Archery, Pin shoots and Tournaments would be that public arena necessary to motivate a student archer to become better I suppose.

Just an interesting perspective from another type of instructor.

My friend makes a living at Teaching Music lessons, so here methods are to promote being proud of one's successes, otherwise she would have no students at all.


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## Viper1 (Aug 21, 2003)

John -

Besides giving people enough information to keep their interest without overloading them, and still challenging them, the only motivation I have for a new shooter is having them watch me (on a good day) or some of my more advanced (better) archers shoot.

Frankly, if repeatedly peppering the gold isn't going to motivate them, then nothing else will. 
Any other reason just isn't going to last.

We (you and I) have been this for the long haul. While I would like to see my students do the same, reality does set in and people's priorities change. 
When they stop working, so do I. 

Viper1 out.


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## huckleberg (Jan 15, 2015)

*sigh* and here I am unable to even find a coach at all!


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## calbowdude (Feb 13, 2005)

As a group, we strongly encourage archers to practice applying our lessons on their own time. We remind them that rehashing last week/month's lessons constantly is a sign that they are not practicing outside of JOAD

We remain available to them during practice and in some cases via email as well. We also strive to be available during tournaments as well, but with so many of the coaches being competitors this one has proven to be difficult. 

Our club has approximately 30 kids. I would say 4 of them practice regularly outside of class. Coincidentally these 4 are the best archers. Also strictly coincidentally these 4 get more of my attention as they need help and advice with equipment, tuning, shooting and tournament management. The others get time as well, but it tends to more along the lines of rehashing an old lesson rather than introducing a new concept. 

I have found it counterproductive to make it my priority to get archers to practice on their own. Those that won't, aren't going to listen to me going on about it. Those that will, are already doing it. The other issue is that too much pressure regarding practice may cause some parents to become nags about it and put even more bad pressure on the archer, thereby taking the fun out of it. We are constantly drawing a line between hard work and fun. 

I've had one archer with potential refuse to practice, and drop out completely. I had initially been pushing for extra practice, but stopped after I discovered the amount of non archery interests. I do hope that there will be eventually a return to archery for this person. 

My experiences sound very similar to the other posters. It may very well be that this is how things are, as archery really is a hobby for 98% of us.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Your experience mirrors my own. We have about 35 archers in our club. I'd say we have about 5 that routinely practice outside of organized practices. And it's obvious and yes, it's no coincidence they are the top performing archers. 

An interesting dynamic I see at play however is that the ones who don't practice but watch those who do, realize how much time those more advanced archers are putting in, and for many of them, that only discourages them further. 



> I have found it counterproductive to make it my priority to get archers to practice on their own. Those that won't, aren't going to listen to me going on about it. Those that will, are already doing it. The other issue is that too much pressure regarding practice may cause some parents to become nags about it and put even more bad pressure on the archer, thereby taking the fun out of it. We are constantly drawing a line between hard work and fun.


You took the words right out of my mouth.

But I'm wondering which coaches have had success in this area. I am willing to try new techniques to get some of my students to dedicate more time to practice if there is a chance they will work. Some of the students, myself and another coach have put years worth of time into and their families are personal friends. It's very sad to think they are done progressing in this sport simply because they just don't want to practice anymore.


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## TomB (Jan 28, 2003)

Tough one there John. I have had several hundred kids I have come in contact with over the years and I can count on one hand those that I had to run off the range to keep them from overtraining. They obsessed about practicing until they couldn't get it wrong. It is no accident that one is a world record holder and three time world team member, another has four gold medals to her name for junior world championships plus some for field podium finishes, and a third is a contender on the world stage now. It was in the nature to pursue excellence. I have others that had the nature but not the talent. And of course I have had a bunch with the talent but not the nature to excel. I am not convinced you can nurture that nature if you will. Not every race horse is destined to win the triple crown. I think the best we may be able to do is when you do get that one in hundred race horse, pray to God you don't screw it up. Seriously, we can be the catalyst to their development of that nature to excel and counsel the athlete and the parents on the road ahead. As for the rest. We still make a difference teaching life skills that will serve them well in arenas other than archery.


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## iArch (Apr 17, 2015)

As an archer, not a coach, I see a lot of parents shuffling their kids to practice and the coach always telling them they need to work hard if they want _____. As you know, many kids don't put in the time.
The way I see it...people can push you to practice, improve, and compete, but that’s like pouring lighter fuel on a fire. When the resources to fuel the fire are gone, what’s left? Who are you when no one's around? What do you want when no one's in your ear telling you what to do?

I think coaches (not saying you or anyone here) sometimes lose sight on helping students find where their passion lies. As coaches y'all are passionate about this sport. There's a potential to be blinded by that same passion and forgetting/not fully understanding what the student wants.

*To the coaches in this thread*: You can push your students to practice but what good does that do if it doesn't come from within? Sure they can shoot an arrow, but where's their heart? Where are they really as they shoot? Does it make them happy? Is this in _their _best interest? Or are you serving _your_ best interest...?



limbwalker said:


> If you have an archer with great potential, but who you know just isn't putting in the time between sessions, how do you choose to handle that?


Speaking from experience and observation....try to inspire the student. Plant the seed in their head, water it a _few_ times, and wait. You'll find out if it blooms or not. If you keep watering it (aka please practice, pounding it into their heads) there's no room to breathe. For the students that are a bit more pessimistic/realistic, honesty might work better.


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## lksseven (Mar 21, 2010)

I am honest and open with students about my love and enthusiasm for this great wonderful sport/activity/hobby/pursuit. 

With adults, I point out the great metaphors that exist between archery and life in general, how the tuning of the bow and arrow is a great metaphor for marriage; with kids I talk about the romantic chase of an ideal of perfection, how archery doesn't require - in order to be a fine archer - a specific body type or brain type, how these kids can will themselves to become good archers. 

Then I tell them that they should always match their expectations to their commitment level, and I'm HERE to help them as much as they want me to, but I won't chase and nag them, instead matching my coaching ardor to their training ardor.

I show them the delayed video streaming cameras in the range, so archers can shoot, then turn and study that shot, in order to analyze and self coach themselves to improved form. I tell them that NFL teams watch a Brazillion hours of film each week, not because it's fun, but because it makes them better. Sadly, out of the 500+ people I've taught a 'first lesson' to in the last two years, only about 8 or 9 of them spend any worthwhile amount of time with that video streaming technology. 

So, to answer your question, John, I make it a point to wax loudly and poetic about how much joy and satisfaction I get from shooting arrows - the thoughtful application of theory and action, the refinement, the contentment - hoping that my enthusiasm for my own shooting journey will give them permission to 'go for it with gusto' ... but I don't chase or nag anyone to shoot one more arrow than they want to. And, Mercy, how frustrating it is in some cases to watch someone with SO MUCH POTENTIAL give a half hearted shrug at it. But you can't make them shoot if they don't love it, and you can't make them love it. And it just now occurs to me that that's a God metaphor, isn't it?


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## Ms.Speedmaster (Dec 10, 2010)

I find it's a balancing act between keeping students accountable, and giving then the room to flourish or flounder without coach, mom or dad constantly prodding them. Ebb and flow. 

Before a new student so much as touches a bow, we have a conversation about their expectations, and then, based on that, my expectations. 

There are those who are just testing the waters, those who want to go hunting, and some for recreation. Then those who want to compete.

The latter students are told, up front, that they will be expected to start a journal, use an arrow counter, and put in the time if they want to succeed. 

They, or parents of younger students, will receive a stock email, outlining the journal expectations. This is based on Lanny Bassham's performance journal. Incidentally, his training has just been made available via USA Archery at a special rate.

I review journals to see how many arrows are being shot, improved scores, tournament reviews etc. There's a lot more to the journal strategy, including positive reinforcement. I would recommend following up on Bassham's Mental Management System, if desired. 

The students who improve the most are those who do what's expected of them. When they see the results, they are encouraged to do more. Setting measurable and realistic goals keeps them moving forward. 

Students seeing others succeed, want to emulate that and are inclined to want to do the same. 

We had several place well at our state JOAD championship this past weekend. 

This will sound conceited, but (most of) my students love me, and I love them too. However, they know I'm firm when I have to be. They know that I will point blank refuse to coach them if they are not practicing, or give me sass. I will tell their parents not to waste their money. 

For those who I know are just in it for fun, for now, they get easy street, with balloons. Lol.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

iArch, that's a great post. Thanks for the perspective.

I will say in response to your post that I have routinely pulled my archers aside and told them to find their passion. Archery or not, find it. I care about my students as people first, and archers second. I don't make my living from this hobby, so I'm in it for the outcome, not the income. I want these kids (and adults I coach) to enjoy the sport, but eventually find their passion.

One of the most talented barebow archers I've ever coached hasn't touched a bow in years. Knowing her talent (she was 16 at the time) I once challenged her in front of a whole group of 4-H archers to split a golf tee at 18 meters. On her 3rd shot, she did exactly that. I was not surprised nor did I act surprised. A few arrows later, I put up another golf tee, and with one arrow, she split it too. She was shooting a one piece WOOD bow at the time. Her talent for archery was God-given.

Larry and Lynda, you guys are personal friends and your perspectives are what I have come to expect from either of you. Thoughtful, caring and accurate. 

Keep it coming. This is good stuff.


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## StarDog (Feb 17, 2007)

What a timely thread. I have done coaching in the in other areas and been coached in many things and have some experience in this regard. This cuts across all disciplines including in business, athletics, life itself. I have trained horses, riders, harpists, rookie business owners, etc. 

Frankly I prefer the horses over the riders and horse owners. 

1. As the thread says, you can lead a horse to water. (mine liked to roll in it).

2. There is a fine line that either coach or student can cross which can create a co dependency of epic proportions. It's easy to do. A coach has to keep the student focused on solving the problem: archery A student has to learn to take the ego out of losing or winning and the expectation that the coach is a therapist. We want to win but we don't need to make ourselves and others insane with our desire to do that. 

3. People run off and get a Level 1 or 2 and think that makes them a coach Coaching is a talent. It is learned from screwing up. It is learned from having crappy coaches who suck the thrill of it all out of you. It's learned from people who are actually good at coaching.

4. Coaches learn from other coaches. John Wooden (basketball) has great books. Tony Dungee (football) has great book. Books by coaches in other disciplines are really really really important to read to learn to coach and elicit the best from people. I don't care for football, basketball or any of that stuff, but I've read both those guys' works. Cuz it ain't about the basketball.

It's not telling someone what to do. Or showing off how much you think you know. Or talking about your wins. Or belittling someone thinking they'll rise to the occasion. 

MJ Rogers has a pretty good chapter in "Performance Archery" on coaching by the way.

Coaching is imparting wisdom but it's also finding out what the student wants to do. If they have no goals, it's pretty hard. If they have stated goals but don't follow the plan, it's impossible. If they have goals follow the plan and get frustrated you have something you can work with.

A key element is this: Is an archer even coachable? I mean you can take their money and have them fight you every step of the way, or just back off and have them shoot balloons as stated above. But someone has to WANT TO learn, listen, overcome obstacles (perhaps physical) adapt (not everyone has a zillion dollars to spend on fancy stuff) and just get better and LISTEN. And shut up. and LISTEN. That is being coachable.

This is a two way street. When the student is ready, the teacher will appear.

I think Ms Speedmaster has the right idea. You have to value your time versus the students money. Tact is useful. Nothing worse than going into a lesson and nothing has changed because they haven't practiced." When that happens repeatedly, it's time to say. "Hey, maybe now isn't the right time for you. I get it. When you're ready to go back to work, let me know."

Cuz that kid/adult may just need a break. And they might be back.


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## Ms.Speedmaster (Dec 10, 2010)

Great post, StarDog. 

I'll look into those books you mentioned.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Agreed. That's some serious wisdom right there. Thanks.


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## calbowdude (Feb 13, 2005)

I agree with the "if they get thirsty they will drink" thought being presented here. There really isn't any way to force, coerce, cajole or berate an archer into shooting more than they want to. 

A number of our archers are really more into the socializing aspect of it all. They come to JOAD, practice a bit here and there, shoot tournaments, and are generally OK with the results they get. We do have a couple whose expectations far exceed their practice habits, so it has been a challenge to clarify the relationship between willingness to learn/practice/actively remember vs. shooting/scoring well. 

Another thought here: perhaps I need to temper my expectations to really expect just a small percentage of shooters to 1. have some sort of aptitude and 2. put in the sweat equity, in order to become good. But really, I enjoy archery, enjoy coaching it, and watching kids' faces light up when they stick one in the middle. 

And perhaps that's the core of it all: that we as coaches provide a safe, healthy environment for kids to learn a bit about working hard for goals, and having fun while doing so. This may never be more than a phase, but hopefully it will be nothing but positive memories for them.


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## lksseven (Mar 21, 2010)

limbwalker said:


> iArch, that's a great post. Thanks for the perspective.
> 
> I will say in response to your post that I have routinely pulled my archers aside and told them to find their passion. Archery or not, find it. I care about my students as people first, and archers second. I don't make my living from this hobby, so I'm in it for the outcome, not the income. I want these kids (and adults I coach) to enjoy the sport, but eventually find their passion.
> 
> ...


YES YES YES! Like you, John, I regularly tell my students (stealing a line from a movie, although I can't remember anything about the movie except this line from a grandfather to a grandson setting out into the world), "It doesn't matter what you do in life - only that you DO something, and do it UNSPARINGLY ... I hope it's target archery, but if not, then keep searching for your bliss until you find it." And, in a couple of cases, that was the last time I saw that youngster, so that was bittersweet experiences for me. I miss them, but hopeful that they will find their 'thing'.


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## Vittorio (Jul 17, 2003)

Viper1 said:


> .......
> I've become more and more pragmatic over the years.
> The more I see a student "doing", ie progressing, the more time I'll put in.
> When I see some one stagnating (repeating the same "mistakes", despite having to reteach the technique), I start to back off on the time I spend with them.
> ...


I have to agree 100% to the above...And in addition to it, I have also to add that because of parent's (and some adult archers) expectations almost never matching reality, process is and has to become be very tough for me. I only dedicate time to those that listen and follow, and to those that get results from what I teach them. My time is very limited, and become less and less oevr the years, so it has no meaning to dedicate it to those that can not give back any result. Those that here but don't do and those that do but dont' hear. I offer my coaching free in my club simply because I don't want to be forced to coache anyone in these useless just because they want to pay my lessons. I choose or discard those that I want to follow based on my paarmeters, only. Call it Oriental style, if you want: master choose students and discard them if they don't follow him, never students choose master . Never.


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## swbuckmaster (Dec 20, 2005)

Vittorio said:


> I have to agree 100% to the above...And in addition to it, I have also to add that because of parent's (and some adult archers) expectations almost never matching reality, process is and has to become be very tough for me. I only dedicate time to those that listen and follow, and to those that get results from what I teach them. My time is very limited, and become less and less oevr the years, so it has no meaning to dedicate it to those that can not give back any result. Those that here but don't do and those that do but dont' hear. I offer my coaching free in my club simply because I don't want to be forced to coache anyone in these useless just because they want to pay my lessons. I choose or discard those that I want to follow based on my paarmeters, only. Call it Oriental style, if you want: master choose students and discard them if they don't follow him, never students choose master . Never.


This is my approach as well


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## StarDog (Feb 17, 2007)

Ms.Speedmaster said:


> Great post, StarDog.
> 
> I'll look into those books you mentioned.


Thanks for the kind words!

You can't beat the numbers and the numbers can't beat you. 17% of the people who start the 8th grade will graduate from college. 20% of the people will do 80% of the work. Supposedly Costco hires 2x as many people as it needs because half of them won't show up.

If you add up the number of students you have at any given time a certain percentage actually put in the effort.

Malcolm Gladwell has a book called "The Talent Code." Basically to reach an elite level it's 10,000 hours of practice. Practice creates neural pathways and lays down a substance called myelin (sp) in the brain which (if you have practice correctly and not wrong) makes you better and better. 

So worrying about the numbers of kids or adults who just dabble or drop out is not a good use of mental energy. Only a certain % at any time will do anything at all. Of that a certain % will perform really well. This is not easy to do because we want people to win and it is hard not to take it personally when someone drops away.

I been there, done that, got the t-shirt and gave it back. You cannot worry about the ones who won't.

A far as co-dependent that Limbwalker talked about; I've seen that. I've done it and I stopped it. 

I know a very talented adult archer who is such a mental wreck that even when WINNING she preferred to wrestle with her woman made demons. I would kill to have her talent and MY mental attitude. I"d be unstoppable. She was so good that having NOT shot for 4 years (and she string walks) she picked up a bow and drilled x after x. Still that was never enough. God alone knows what would have made her happy. Drove her coach bat**** although he never said anything as such. She was casting him as her therapist. Finally he suggested maybe she would do better with another coach. Act of total self defense on his part. She was devastated. What I wanted to her is "You need to get over yourself. Get therapy and a prescription for a LOT of xanax."

How does a coach put up with that? It's really hard to erect a barrier against that sort of thing.

You gotta extricate yourself from the situation. "I am not a therapist. I am an archery coach. We're here to put all that daily life nonsense to one side and focus on this THEN you can go back to your demons. Maybe they'll have quieted down by then. Yes I know you want to win. But we don't want to focus on where the arrow is going. We want to focus on how to get the arrow where we want it to go. That's how we win, young padawan learner."

Then there is the kids and parents thing.

When I was doing Irish dance, no studio allowed the parents into the studio. Banned. Period. Drop 'em off, pick 'em up in an hour. The teacher was GOD. And didn't need any help from the parents.

My coach has one parent who constantly wonders why her kid didn't fire when the clicker dropped. She has been told why several times and still she asks. "Because your kid is smart enough to know that the form etc wasn't all there and is she starting over." 

How do you coaches deal with the parents? That's gotta be interesting. I know some turn into some pretty good amateur coaches themselves, then there are the ones you want to --well -- shove off a cliff. You've got the kid right where you want them and some parent says, "Yeah, but what about this?"

I must say that a a recent shoot, the same clicker mom saw me and asked me what her teenager's mood was (the girl and I had been in line for equipment inspection.) I said. "She's calm, happy, she's got it together." Which was the truth. Mom said, 'I'm going to stay way from her til she needs me. " "Good idea," I said.

And I thought and for the love of all that's holy don't ask her why she didn't fire when the clicker dropped.


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## ThomVis (Feb 21, 2012)

limbwalker said:


> For years, I thought the ones who were struggling just needed MORE of my time and attention than those who were progressing well.





StarDog said:


> Malcolm Gladwell has a book called "The Talent Code." Basically to reach an elite level it's 10,000 hours of practice. Practice creates neural pathways and lays down a substance called myelin (sp) in the brain which (if you have practice correctly and not wrong) makes you better and better.


Another point in there is not to overload the archer with information. Students coming out of the beginner course (adults here) know how to shoot an arrow, they just need time to digest the knowledge into feeling and experience. More coaching would be counter productive, the coach needs to know when not to give information, only affirmation.


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## StarDog (Feb 17, 2007)

ThomVis said:


> Another point in there is not to overload the archer with information. Students coming out of the beginner course (adults here) know how to shoot an arrow, they just need time to digest the knowledge into feeling and experience. More coaching would be counter productive, the coach needs to know when not to give information, only affirmation.


yep yep yep. Totally agree.


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## PaulME (Jun 11, 2014)

Tons of good insight here - and I am not a coach.
On drive and desire - it really has to come from within ( there is a line in the movie "chariots of Fire" along these lines). If the archer, athlete, student... does not have the internal desire then they probably will not go very far.
Everyone is different, my son loves playing musical instruments (sax and violin), we have never had to tell him to practice , he does it totally on his own. Had him start archery after starting the scout merit badge, he clearly does not have the same passion at least yet), he does not practice outside of the JOAD program or when I get the practice target out and shoot myself. That's ok by me, he can do it for fun, if he wants to do more that will be ok as well.

paul


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## tunedlow (Nov 7, 2012)

limbwalker said:


> Many veteran archery coaches will easily relate to this.
> 
> Archery is a uniquely individual sport. I'd say it's not even as social as another popular individual sport - golf - since even when most golfers practice they have other people around them. Many times, archers are putting in a very large % of their practice time completely alone.
> 
> ...


John, I think the coach can only do so much but as a person who has benefited from great coaching, my progress is largely in part due to my learning and training as a collab effort. I know my coach does his part and I have to do mine to make the relationship be beneficial and demonstrate that I am serious about becoming a good archer. I meet with my coach to go over my progress and he steers me in the right direction to guide my training. Main details i've implemented since training with my coach is the use of a training log and training video footage. The use of these two tools have helped hammer in my progress so when I meet with my coach, I am able to tell him issues, progress reports and breakthroughs I've had in my shooting. I don't want to waste his effort and I want to make sure I stay on point with the knowledge he is taking the time to share with me.


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## TomB (Jan 28, 2003)

Learning a lot here! Thanks to everyone contributing.


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## iArch (Apr 17, 2015)

limbwalker said:


> iArch, that's a great post. Thanks for the perspective.
> 
> I will say in response to your post that I have routinely pulled my archers aside and told them to find their passion. Archery or not, find it. I care about my students as people first, and archers second. I don't make my living from this hobby, so I'm in it for the outcome, not the income. I want these kids (and adults I coach) to enjoy the sport, but eventually find their passion.
> 
> One of the most talented barebow archers I've ever coached hasn't touched a bow in years. Knowing her talent (she was 16 at the time) I once challenged her in front of a whole group of 4-H archers to split a golf tee at 18 meters. On her 3rd shot, she did exactly that. I was not surprised nor did I act surprised. A few arrows later, I put up another golf tee, and with one arrow, she split it too. She was shooting a one piece WOOD bow at the time. Her talent for archery was God-given.


Thanks. It's great that you do that for your students and for this sport.
The barebow archer you mentioned had God-given talent, but her passion was somewhere else wasn't it? I've learned that God is fair. People will have one thing and lack another. Every now and then a winning combination will appear...and like TomB said "when you do get that one in hundred race horse, pray to God you don't screw it up."



StarDog said:


> I know a very talented adult archer who is such a mental wreck that even when WINNING she preferred to wrestle with her woman made demons. I would kill to have her talent and MY mental attitude. I"d be unstoppable.
> You gotta extricate yourself from the situation. "I am not a therapist. I am an archery coach. We're here to put all that daily life nonsense to one side and focus on this THEN you can go back to your demons. Maybe they'll have quieted down by then. Yes I know you want to win. But we don't want to focus on where the arrow is going. We want to focus on how to get the arrow where we want it to go. That's how we win, young padawan learner."


I understand where you're coming from but coaching archery also has a lot of mental development included for the student to excel. I believe that the greatest coaches don't just explain and demonstrate, they inspire. They connect with their student in their own way (Ex. Lynda's students love her, some coaches become good friends, some become mentors, etc). Some times coaches have to be a "therapist" of sorts to help their students progress and grow not just in archery, but in life as well. When the therapist role becomes unrelated or too much, like you mentioned, then yes it's time to step away from the uncoachable student.


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## zal (May 1, 2007)

I don't even bother anymore. Couple of times I've taken someone under proper, time-consuming personal coaching their interest has waned after couple of years, just when they started to be on edge of actually achieving some results.

I can't coax someone to be more interested in training, or dedication, it has to come from the athlete himself/herself. Coach is just a tool for athletes to help in the way, its not their responsibility to instill values to them they should already have. I've been asked a couple of times to work with someone who might have had longer lasting motivation and dedication, but it has to be right for both parties at that time, to work properly.


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## StarDog (Feb 17, 2007)

iArch said:


> I understand where you're coming from but coaching archery also has a lot of mental development included for the student to excel. I believe that the greatest coaches don't just explain and demonstrate, they inspire. They connect with their student in their own way (Ex. Lynda's students love her, some coaches become good friends, some become mentors, etc). Some times coaches have to be a "therapist" of sorts to help their students progress and grow not just in archery, but in life as well. When the therapist role becomes unrelated or too much, like you mentioned, then yes it's time to step away from the uncoachable student.


Yes a coach has to get involved to a certain degree, but not past that degree. Sometimes it's hard to tell.


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## Azzurri (Mar 10, 2014)

Few thoughts: 

I played select soccer on a team that was good enough to win some state titles, and at that level I still had friends who were talented athletes who didn't have any discipline til their mid or late 20s. The truly dedicated at that age is a rare breed. Most of us viewed practice in the Iverson sense. I do this so coach will let me play Sunday. It wasn't until college soccer that I started treating it as an end in itself. People who are talented and people who are dedicated are not necessarily co-extensive.

Some people can be talented and not care. One of my best friends won a national select soccer title, was all-state leading our HS to the state final, ended up doing 2 Juco years and that was it, told me during college he didn't enjoy playing soccer anymore. He would do some amazing things if you got him to play. But he also turned down most of the times I tried to get him to do adult leagues. You can't change doesn't care anymore. So we watch the Dynamo a couple times a year.

I think playing more than one sport helps. I can see where it can also be a distraction or magnet taking people away, but for me in terms of burnout it was good to have something else. I go do something else and come back to soccer, was what used to happen. When soccer got old I had a break. The smartest coaches to me allow this instead of forcing a choice.

I also think that while a level of seriousness and arrow count can help produce a stronger archer, it needs to be a fun process or you are asking for burnout. All business may help produce better archers faster but eventually the lack of fun will tell. And if this is all happening at the same time as HS and college social fun, they will see it as archery is drudgery and socializing is fun. Maybe as a serious adult the fire will light. I really think that's the more likely time to find that work rate, young adulthood.

One thing I see with some super serious outfits is the kids do a lot of the same events over and over. Arizona. Vegas. Nationals. For me initially this is neat. For someone running through it the umpteenth time with motivational issues I can see where it might be like a treadmill, particularly if conjoined with training expectations. Variety is the spice of life.

I also see the curse of the good coach as the ability to create talented archers way beyond what their motivational level is. Numbers that some people have to work hard for they can train students to achieve more easily. Downside being, having shown USAT level talent they may have club archer level motivation. Instead of beating yourself up for being unable to motivate the potentially unmotivateable, you should take pride that you can train someone to be that competitive. If they want to take it to the next level, you surely can help them do that also, but I think at some point they expend the easy advantage and to compete need to be in fact working harder than the next guy who is working hard. You may be like, I wish, but to me it's like abstract truth. They have to care for it to be even a real problem. My childhood best buddy could have played somewhere huge but he instead went to a local Juco so he could be near his girlfriend. In two years his career was over. They have to want it themselves.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

> Only a certain % at any time will do anything at all. Of that a certain % will perform really well. This is not easy to do because we want people to win and it is hard not to take it personally when someone drops away.


Okay, so if I were "just" an archery coach for hire and only taught individuals, this would be a lot cleaner and easier. However, folks like Tom and myself, and others, run "clubs," not training centers. In other words, we are there recreationally, not professionally and more often than not, these archers and their parents become friends. Some become close friends. Sometimes you as a coach become a role model or mentor to the young people in the club. Sometimes parents bring their children to the club because they want themselves or their kids to be exposed to good role models in a positive environment. 

That complicates things. A lot.

Tom and I (and other coaches) talk often about teaching life lessons - not just archery. So, this is why I ask this question - how much energy do you invest?

And I am only talking about the ones that are worth investing in. Lord knows we've all had those students who were not. Those are easy. But when you have a young person that is a good person but perhaps overscheduled (like most of our kids these days), or who has hit a plateau, or who is burned out.... then what. It's not a matter of them being a bad student. It's something else.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

> How do you coaches deal with the parents? That's gotta be interesting. I know some turn into some pretty good amateur coaches themselves, then there are the ones you want to --well -- shove off a cliff. You've got the kid right where you want them and some parent says, "Yeah, but what about this?"


This question deserves it's own thread, but I kinda like this answer: 



> Banned. Period. Drop 'em off, pick 'em up in an hour. The teacher was GOD. And didn't need any help from the parents


  LOL.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

> Main details i've implemented since training with my coach is the use of a training log and training video footage.


I have to get better about requiring training logs and holding them to their arrow counts. But because it's a club (like I said) that makes it tough. What are the consequences? 

I'm looking for tools. Things that have actually worked for coaches or archers.



> I believe that the greatest coaches don't just explain and demonstrate, they inspire.


I agree. I was watching the ESPN 30 for 30 show on coach Jim Valvano and the 1983 College National Championship team he led (great program by the way). All the players from that team said over and over that Jimmy V inspired them to victory. 

I have some very talented archers under my care who after years of working at this sport, need new inspiration.

I'm a bit torn between the idea of "the less you work, the less of my time/attention you get" (which is a guaranteed recipe for ending an archery career for probably 80% of students), and the idea of a great coach being able to inspire their students to find that next goal, and want to work toward it.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

> On drive and desire - it really has to come from within ( there is a line in the movie "chariots of Fire" along these lines). If the archer, athlete, student... does not have the internal desire then they probably will not go very far.


I've said this myself for a long time. Maybe it's true. But what about those who can inspire a student/athlete to go further?

What does that look like for archers?


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

> I also see the curse of the good coach as the ability to create talented archers way beyond what their motivational level is. Numbers that some people have to work hard for they can train students to achieve more easily. Downside being,* having shown USAT level talent they may have club archer level motivation.*


That's a good point. I think that may be the case with a few archers of mine, and of some coaches I know.


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## Warbow (Apr 18, 2006)

limbwalker said:


> But because it's a club (like I said) that makes it tough.


That really sounds like the crux of the issue. You are a high level coach, and you are a successful club leader for a community of archers that includes more than just the group archers with the drive and/or talent for national level competition. And the question is how do you juggle those two closely related, yet different, roles.


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## iArch (Apr 17, 2015)

limbwalker said:


> I'm a bit torn between the idea of "the less you work, the less of my time/attention you get" (which is a guaranteed recipe for ending an archery career for probably 80% of students), and the idea of a great coach being able to inspire their students to find that next goal, and want to work toward it.


It seems like you want to share your passion and help them all...but when time and energy are limited, something has to give. Just like us students have to prioritize what we want to do and make time for, busy coaches eventually have to pick and choose which students they devote time and energy to when there isn't much time.


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## TomB (Jan 28, 2003)

limbwalker said:


> That's a good point. I think that may be the case with a few archers of mine, and of some coaches I know.


hey, I resemble that remark.


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## Longlost (Jan 26, 2015)

I'm not a coach but I am a father of four children who pursue various interests that I like to see them do their best at. I encourage them and try to bolster their confidence in themselves to see them through the tough times when, left to their own devices, they would give up. I also dangle the carrot of success to help them get and keep their eyes on the prize. 

I think lack of self confidence, doubt and pessimism lead many a novice or student to give up in varying degrees. As I said, I'm no expert but that's what I think.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Longlost said:


> I'm not a coach but I am a father of four children who pursue various interests that I like to see them do their best at. I encourage them and try to bolster their confidence in themselves to see them through the tough times when, left to their own devices, they would give up. I also dangle the carrot of success to help them get and keep their eyes on the prize.
> 
> I think lack of self confidence, doubt and pessimism lead many a novice or student to give up in varying degrees. As I said, I'm no expert but that's what I think.


I have seen this. So the question remains, whose job is it to "cure" those ills. The coach or the archer?


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## Longlost (Jan 26, 2015)

limbwalker said:


> I have seen this. So the question remains, whose job is it to "cure" those ills. The coach or the archer?


I think it depends on the individual case. If I was coaching a child who apparently isn't getting the emotional support from family or other role models, I would step up. Obviously, this has to be balanced with constraints on time and resources but I would try to make time for them in this regard. Maybe its not your job but it still needs doing. I pick up other peoples litter because I'd rather not be surrounded by it but its not _my_ job - I do it because it needs doing.


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## StarDog (Feb 17, 2007)

limbwalker said:


> Okay, so if I were "just" an archery coach for hire and only taught individuals, this would be a lot cleaner and easier. However, folks like Tom and myself, and others, run "clubs," not training centers. In other words, we are there recreationally, not professionally and more often than not, these archers and their parents become friends. Some become close friends. Sometimes you as a coach become a role model or mentor to the young people in the club. Sometimes parents bring their children to the club because they want themselves or their kids to be exposed to good role models in a positive environment.
> 
> That complicates things. A lot.
> 
> ...


I guess depending on the age and maturity level of the kid, one can probe and find out what's going on, if they're frustrated or bored or just over the whole thing. Talk to the parents if they are reasonable people. Find out what's important to the kid. Although some kids may not know what that is or be able to voice it. 

At some point there is just nothing one can do period. At all. The kid has talent and says they want to compete at a high level but just isn't going the practice at home. They're constantly frustrated or bored or just don't try any more. Then it's time to say, "Look I get it. We all get fried from time to time. No one is going to think less of you if you want to step away for a bit. When you get it sorted out I'll be here. I get it. We all need a break."

Frankly, a kid might just snap out of it if someone acknowledges that they are aware of and understand "burnout." Maybe that's all they need is someone to say, "It's ok to be frustrated. No one think the less of you."

Pressure to perform can make some people and destroy others. All of us have expectations of ourselves and earning how to meet/accept/deal with less than stellar results is a learned skill. This is the mental management stuff that a coach can help a willing student work on.

The operative word is "willing".


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## lksseven (Mar 21, 2010)

limbwalker said:


> I have to get better about requiring training logs and holding them to their arrow counts. But because it's a club (like I said) that makes it tough. What are the consequences?
> 
> I'm looking for tools. Things that have actually worked for coaches or archers.
> 
> ...


I'll tell you, when I was watching Secretariat come around that final turn, a zillion lengths ahead, and still accelerating, still pulling away, just running full out for the pure unadulterated joy of running, all I wanted was to go outside and race down the street as fast and as far as I could, to share that joy and fulfillment so evident in that great horse's performance. Watching that horse's joyful 'all in' effort touched something in me that I hadn't really been aware of before, and I wanted that shadow companion. 

I became a marketing major in college due to the immense enthusiasm and joy that my first marketing professor brought to his lectures and class - he was fascinated with the theory and mechanics of marketing products and understanding human motivation, and his fascination and enthusiasm for his subject vibrated my own interest in those things.

So, as a coach, some time ago I decided that my strategy to achieve this with students is to 'show them', not 'talk them' (I've never been good at talking/cajoling/reasoning people into things, anyway). I personally train and compete as much as I can; I shoot arrows and use the video equipment right along with them; I tell them funny stories about things that have happened during competitions (usually stories that are at my expense!). I share visible excitement with them when I'm doing something really good in training (better form, better followthrough, etc) that I see with the camera. I talk about standing transfixed next to the highway in gale force winds watching for the first time an Olympian (John Magera) shooting with precision and accuracy at 70meters that gave me chills; I come back from Indoor Nationals, jabbering like a kid getting Willie Mays' autograph about the joy of being able to shoot next to and watch Vic Wunderle shoot for 3 hours on a Saturday night from 3 feet away, swearing that I can hear music in the precision, beauty, and rhythm of his shooting. I talk about my record setting 10 year old student Aurora, who loves shooting and training so much that she shoots after school across the street from her house, still in her school uniform because she doesn't want to take the time to change clothes, and has a shooting form so pure that cars regularly stop at the curb and just watch her shoot - they also hearing the music of someone not only doing something well, but doing it beautifully. 

In other words, I allow them to be privy to my joyful dance with this sport, and give them a chance to observe, absorb and hopefully make the choice "Goodness, that guy really LOVES the training, really LOVES the analysis, really LOVES the understanding of the physics of both shooting and tuning, really LOVES getting better, and really LOVES competing ... he's enraptured. I want that joy, too. I'm going for it." 

What else can I do, but show them what it can look like/feel like/be like for them to love something passionately - and the passionate doing of that something? If they're drawn to it, fantastic. If they're not, then I can't do anything more to change that.

ps - I just reread this, and I hope it doesn't make me sound like I'm 'full of it' ... just trying to describe how with my students I rave on about how delicious the food is, and hopefully my enthusiasm will give them permission to indulge/pursue their own latent curiosity and need (if those things are present in them) - the percentage of students who respond like I did to my college professor is frustratingly small.


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## midwayarcherywi (Sep 24, 2006)

Not full of it at all Larry. If a coach is passionate about what he does, it shines through. That passion has more of a chance to inspire than any words. It is very easy to differentiate a coach going through the motions versus a coach who loves what he is doing. 

We are all inclined to spend more time with those students who demonstrate the will to get better. I spend time with all who come to class, but teaching step 1 to the same archer multiple times indicates that archer doesn't have the time, inclination or will to improve. In some cases that does change over time.


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## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

limbwalker said:


> Many veteran archery coaches will easily relate to this.
> 
> Archery is a uniquely individual sport. I'd say it's not even as social as another popular individual sport - golf - since even when most golfers practice they have other people around them. Many times, archers are putting in a very large % of their practice time completely alone.
> 
> ...


I'm not a coach...however while a state ranked archer myself?...back in the early '90's I did coach a young man 10 years my junior how to shoot NFAA/BHFSL (compound/fingers)....nothing real formal though as the reason I did coach him (in more of a "mentor-ship" kind of way...although he did refer to me as "His Coach")...was because I saw something in him I would term as being..."A Natural".

Matter fact?...his form was "Rock Solid" when I met him...it's "What Got My Attention"...as he would execute that short series of simplistic physical acts with extreme consistency and do so in a seemingly effortless manor...but to answer your question?..

I've seen quite a few archers like him over the decades....but what he had that the others didn't?...was..."Passion For The Sport"...because while many may exhibit the skill to be "A Natural"....they lack the drive, dedication and passion it takes to complete the makings of a true "Championship Archer".

His name was and still is "Steve White"....he hailed from Indiana but moved to FL where he met me at Treasure Coast Archers in Stuart, FL...and it was more his gear and mental approach I needed to help him get in order and sort out than his physical execution and/or form...and even though I was ranked in the top 3 state wide?...I lost any dreams of becoming #1 in the state too him as we progressed as a team...and it was me he was trying to best...whereby we eventually took each others skills to the next level but it was he who wound up ranked #1 in the state 4 years running and me?...I was still proud of (what he even termed as) "Our" accomplishment.

His parents flew down too FL the first year he managed "State Champion"...where they couldn't of been more appreciative of what they said "I did for their son"...taking my family and I out for a steak dinner and extending invitation too me to come up to Indiana and hunt the family farm.

But there ya have it limbwalker....jmho of what it takes and who actually takes it....and those who have both the skills and ability to be termed as "A Natural" along with the drive, dedication and passion to follow through in a diligent fashion?....are far a few between...but I was fortunate enough to meet (1) in my life and his name was "Steve White".

Hope that helps and L8R, Bill. :cool2:


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Larry, your enthusiasm is contagious. And that is the correct approach, I believe.

However, just like student's interest can wane, so can a coach's. After hoping, working and trying to "infect" my 100+ students with my enthusiasm over the past 12 years, I find myself having to consciously make myself "snap out of it" when I am disappointed with a young person's decision to just quit trying. Esp. after it's an archer I've invested years of time in. 

So when you're faced with this, how do you "get up" for the occasion time and time again? What techniques as a coach do you use?


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## calbowdude (Feb 13, 2005)

I look back on all the archers I've shot with/worked with/competed with over the years, and remind myself that even though I'm not great, I still have a passion for archery that keeps me going. Many of my contemporaries and competitors have retired (and I'm not particularly old). 

I look at my students and remind myself that of the 30 kids we have now, probably 4 will be actively shooting, competing and/or coaching in the next 10 years. I also find it disappointing to have a long time shooter decide to stop, but I don't take it personally. I try to get everyone the technical assistance/positive reinforcement/permission to stop they all need at some point, and hopefully we've impacted their lives in some positive way. 

I also have to remember that archery can be very difficult, and that it is just not for everyone to do on a regular basis. I personally know of two 1200+ shooters whose careers have been curtailed by injury. I also recall the sheer number of archers who do it for several months and then don't come back due to perceived lack of results. 

I look forward to working with those who remain, and the fresh new faces we get every couple of months.


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## lksseven (Mar 21, 2010)

limbwalker said:


> Larry, your enthusiasm is contagious. And that is the correct approach, I believe.
> 
> However, just like student's interest can wane, so can a coach's. After hoping, working and trying to "infect" my 100+ students with my enthusiasm over the past 12 years, I find myself having to consciously make myself "snap out of it" when I am disappointed with a young person's decision to just quit trying. Esp. after it's an archer I've invested years of time in.
> 
> So when you're faced with this, how do you "get up" for the occasion time and time again? What techniques as a coach do you use?


Well, I've only been coaching for 2 years (as you know), and haven't yet had my heart (completely) broken by a student that I've invested time and effort and hopes into, only to see him/her peel off ... although I have a couple of students right now whose quitting would be brutal for me to absorb. So, I can't yet speak to your question 'after repeated knock downs, how to bounce back up with a smile', except with some bromides.


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## tigersdad (Jun 13, 2009)

Let me give my perspective as a father of a talented son, an archer from when my first bow had Roy Rogers signature on it and as a psychologist who has trained/supervised school psychologists for over twenty years.
First, as a father my son was born multitalented - music, art, engineering - ( am not taking credit - he is adopted) - he decided he wanted to play the piano early on and he had automatic music memory and great hands - by age eight, we took him to "the" teacher in San Antonio who got kids to Julliard. Will ended up having the teacher perform for him and then he decided he wanted to learn from him - perhaps first point is be a coach who can shoot. After two years, the teacher said Will could take it to Julliard IF he wanted it and IF he would practise more. Sure, we were puffed up parents and then Will said "no" I don't like how he "shakes his finger in my face and tell me to play it again" - so, the teaching/coaching and practise became negative. Will still plays great piano but not to the level he perhaps could have achieved. That future was not his desire.

Now, as an archer, I love flinging arrows and had no instruction in proper technique till age 56 - did 3D and bow hunting until my son, again, said he wanted to shoot arrows also - so that started me in league and led me to realize I am competitive and want to win and do the best I can. I have gotten instruction from three people - one is Limbwalker - but have not really pursued a consistent coach. Stymied in the mid 280's and KNOW I NEED HELP - time to get real. Time to accept I need to listen and practice systematically. Perhaps, now I am ready for a coach's talent but will have to conquer my own impatience and "know it all" attitude - I, as a student , don't want to waste a coach's time but, reallty, at 66, I don't think any coach is pinning his hopes on me making the Olympic team.
Now, as a trainer of psychologist which I liken to a coach, I absolutely loved getting new impressionable psychs and developing their ability to analyze a student, establish what is happening, and , with the good ones, developing a plan that might, just might, improve the student's life. I tried to get them to see the "art" of psychology and to understand that their meeting with that student and their family was a sacred moment - a moment to respect each other and work together as we souls travel this life. I will admit that less than half "got that". Most just wanted to do a workmanlike job, get paid, and avoid a Due Process hearing it a case blew up. A few recognized that is was a gift for them being able to work with people and be trusted by them and that was enormously satisfying.

So, like Vittorio stated about putting his time into rewarding students only - my son's music teacher suggested he fill Will's spot with another student as he was all about serious students - not just gifted ones - Will found a less pressuring teacher. I think if you as an archery coach wants to bask in the glow of a student's success - that is a false trail to follow. Like me wanting me to be a revered Yoda-like psychologist - we are not in charge of how important another human sees us or even whether or not we made a difference in their life. The goal, as I see it, is to be as real and authentic you can be to whoever is standing in front of you - take our false ego-self off the table, and enjoy the fact that we are alive and willing to share what we know and who we are. Disappointments come and go - as does "success". Coach because you like who you are as a coach and person. When it gets old, time yourself out or examine your priorities. We come in with nothing and leave with nothing except the memories of a life lived.


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## Ms.Speedmaster (Dec 10, 2010)

lksseven said:


> In other words, I allow them to be privy to my joyful dance with this sport, and give them a chance to observe, absorb and hopefully make the choice "Goodness, that guy really LOVES the training, really LOVES the analysis, really LOVES the understanding of the physics of both shooting and tuning, really LOVES getting better, and really LOVES competing ... he's enraptured. I want that joy, too. I'm going for it."


Yes! Excellent post, that had me smiling and nodding along. 

Our passion for the sport is a huge motivator. 

I find that my intimate understanding of each student's ability, personality, foibles, attitude, drive, passions, etc. allows me to tailor my coaching for every student. The drama, disappointment, joy, pride or any other emotion that is found with one student, does not have a residual effect on the next, because each coaching session is a very personal and tailored time. 

What keeps me going? Even though I'm totally drained and brain dead after coaching every day? Not just the fact that this is my job, but the absolute joy I get from investing into the lives of others. I tell my hubby frequently, I love, love, love my job. 

Having said that, we must not lose sight of the fact that we must invest in ourselves, so that we're able to invest in others. We have to recharge, take a detour, check out for a while.

I'm not sorry to say that Nationals is actually going to be a vacation for me.


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## dmacey (Mar 27, 2015)

TomB said:


> Tough one there John. I have had several hundred kids I have come in contact with over the years and I can count on one hand those that I had to run off the range to keep them from overtraining.


That was me and it still is. I shot so much with my too-heavy Gold Medalist when I was at TAMU, it put my right shoulder out of commission for almost 20 years. I couldn't afford lighter limbs so I just tore it up. My coach at the time (Frank Thomas at TAMU) lost interest because suddenly I was wounded and unable to shoot anymore (and of course he did the right thing, I don't blame him at all). 

I'm back at it again though in middle age, this time having invested in lighter bows (recurve and compound) and still can't put either of these fricking bows down.... 

I'm one of the no-talent-but-obsessed-with-practice-and-learning types; why are all you guys in other states and 1000's of miles away?? BTW, love this thread...

D


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## Viper1 (Aug 21, 2003)

d - 

No he didn't. 
That's where I would blame the coach for a bad choice.
Having had a fair amount of medical training, I'm able to evaluate a shooter's injury, prescribe a treatment plan, which may include time off form the sport, or refer them to an appropriate care provider. A good coach without that knowledge needs to have access to one or more professionals in the event of an injury or potential injury. Even with adults, injuries happen, and I think it IS part of the coach or instructors' responsibility to address the issue, especially with an athlete that does want to progress. 

I've have more than a few students over the years, sometimes students more at one time and sometimes less, but finding a pair of lighter limbs is rarely an issue. 

BTW - for full disclosure, except for the HS archery classes I teach, I don't work with (or coach) kids under 16 anymore. I just don't have the time or the patience, for them or some of their parents. 

Viper1 out.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

> BTW - for full disclosure, except for the HS archery classes I teach, I don't work with (or coach) kids under 16 anymore. I just don't have the time or the patience, for them or some of their parents.


This to me, is where a lot of the question of "motivation" comes from. The pre-teen and teenage group. Here's why I say this...

Many of us gladly work with younger archers. Why? Because the chance to teach a young person a lifetime sport/hobby/passion is addictive. Watching a 9 year old shoot their first arrows, then a year later having them hold gold at 30 meters, or shoot all six in the gold at 18 indoors, is an incredible feeling. For them, and for their coach (and parent). 

But here's the hard part - 

Eventually archery gets "hard." Why? because expectations change. Archery is seldom ever "hard" at first. It is a challenge. It's pure fun. It's a "let me see if I can do that again!" kind of fun. 

But the competition, the tournaments, the struggle to earn that next achievement pin, that starts sucking the fun out of archery. And that's when the kid (usually 14 or 15 or 16 by then) starts seeing archery as a chore and not a challenge. That's also when the parents start to press. Some more, some less, but they press. You see, the parents too, get addicted to the adrenaline that comes with watching their child achieve something new. Reach a new distance, shoot a higher weight, attend a new tournament, make the podium. And they don't want that to end either. So the pressure comes. 

Some coaches even get addicted to this. They want to "ride their racehorses" so to speak because they to get great satisfaction from their archer's accomplishments. And they should. But I've learned you have to be careful there. Very careful. 

If anyone has been around me much, they will rarely, if ever hear me say that "I'm proud of .... (archer)." Why? Because just like my own kids, it's their accomplishment, not mine. They have the right to be proud of themselves, but if I were to say I'm proud of them, that to me implies it's my accomplishment. I will instead always try to say that "I am happy for them." Meaning, I'm happy they have found what it takes to succeed.

I digress, but the reason teenagers are so challenging to work with is that in just a matter of a few years, they can go from walking on clouds because of archery, to never wanting to shoot again. And it can be damn tough to watch and accept as their coach. Or their parent. 

This sport is unforgiving. Target archery, I mean. Esp. since we have the Olympic connection. That brings with it tremendous potential and hopes and dreams, but tremendous pressure too. How many parents, grandparents, aunts, uncles and cousins have ever said "she's going to the Olympics someday" or "he is training for the Olympics?" One of my least favorite labels in this sport is "Future Olympian." Can you put any more pressure on a child than that? What is that child supposed to do when the realization hits that they most likely will never live up to that label? 

When they have a chance to spend some time with Olympic archers and understand the amount of time those archers have dedicated to their sport, and realize that they simply don't have THAT much interest in archery? They have been given an all or nothing scenario when that label is applied, and as we all know, for 99.999% of archers, the end result is "nothing" - at least in their mind. So be careful with that one. Because the next question becomes,* then what?*

It never bothers me much when a young person chooses other things over archery. If they are an active, intelligent child, they have a LOT of choices these days. If they choose another sport, or their academics, or hunting or fishing or boyfriends or girlfriends or whatever, I'm fine with that. When it bothers me is when they leave archery because of archery. 

Archery has meant so much to me throughout my life. Maybe I needed it more than many kids today need it. Easy come, easy go seems to be the norm today. Maybe that's it. Maybe kids today just haven't been taught to "work" as much or "stick with things" as much? Or maybe it's always been that way. Who knows.

So, as a coach, what are you doing to ensure the long-term participation in the sport by your students? What are you not doing, or hoping to avoid? What things have you had success with, or wish you had tried with a student years ago, before they quit?


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

One of the things I'm passionate about, and that I do because I think it will help create lifelong archers, is to get parents shooting alongside their kids. When I look back at all the students I have, the vast majority of those I've had quit the sport outright, or who gradually shot archery less and less until they barely even do it anymore, have been kids of parents who do not shoot. 

I can't think of many kids whose parents shoot with them, who have completely quit. Maybe because their parents can relate to them better. Maybe because the kids don't want to give up that precious time with their parents. Maybe because the kid is still quietly hoping to beat their parent someday? Whatever the case, there seems to be a real connection there.

Has anyone else noticed this?


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## Viper1 (Aug 21, 2003)

John - 

I think your assessment is spot on and I can't really add anything, especially on the "kid" front. Just seems today that a lot of kids are involved in too many things, mostly due to parental exploitation. I see a lot of young (< 12 y.o.) "archers" splitting their time between archery, soccer, some dance class, little league, the math club, Salieri Preservation Society (SPS), whatever... by "well meaning" parents. Ditto with the brat (aka "Future Olympian") with over 2K worth of equipment that can't group on an 80cm target at 10 yards. 

Side bar: I recall a number of years ago I was shooting with two 15 or 16 year olds who where being coached by a guy from another club. One kid, probably 110# dripping wet, was struggling trying to shoot a 50# Oly rig. The other, reportedly a good shooter at the "bigger events" was sorta mopping around between ends. I just asked him if he was enjoying what he was doing. All I got back was silence and a blank stare, followed by a quiet "no".

The flip side are parents that do shoot (and typically not well by any stretch) and want junior to be just like mommy or daddy. A lot of times, they can do more harm than good, not dissimilar to having two coaches. What I have done in the past, was give the kid AND the parent instructions on what to do when I'm not around. Some times it works, some times, not so much. So with kids, I don't have a blanket answer.

With adults, (chronologically or by maturity) my tact is pretty much always the same. The new shooters get a pretty rigid foundation, only allowing exceptions based on anatomy and in rare cases psychology. IOWs, I tell them my two favorite 3 word phrases are "I don't care" and "deal with it". Once that starts working, shooting with them usually works as motivation. As they progress, we (OK, I) start increasing the workload as much as I feel they can handle. There's some guess work involved and my choices ain't always right, the first time. By this time, the rigid foundation can be tempered by the emergence of individual style. 

The first thing I tell tell them is that, from now on, new "stuff" will be trail and error to some degree. We have to test things out and see what works and what doesn't, again physically and psychologically. I also start scaring the crap out of them. For example, by the time are are getting ready to use a clicker, I keep warning them on how they are going to hate it. A notion that's usually echoed by my other students already using "that "expletive" thing. By the time we set it up, they were expecting the worst and the initial response, is usually, "well, it's not that bad" ... Later on the love/hate relationship starts, but they are over the initial hump. 

Also usually around that time, my job gets a lot easier. After the foundation has been laid, new techniques become less and less, and it's more of a refining thing. Effectively, they tell me what we need to work on or what needs tweaking. 

I guess that approach can work with kids too, but the kid trying to split his time between x-number of extra curricular activities, enforced by those well meaning parents, is more that I want to deal with. Thankfully there are guys like you willing to put the time in. 

Viper1 out.


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## dmacey (Mar 27, 2015)

Viper1 said:


> d -
> 
> No he didn't.
> That's where I would blame the coach for a bad choice.
> Having had a fair amount of medical training, I'm able to evaluate a shooter's injury, prescribe a treatment plan, which may include time off form the sport, or refer them to an appropriate care provider. A good coach without that knowledge needs to have access to one or more professionals in the event of an injury or potential injury. Even with adults, injuries happen, and I think it IS part of the coach or instructors' responsibility to address the issue, especially with an athlete that does want to progress.


Well the only excuse I can offer was I was a totally broke college student at the time; I couldn't afford to go to a doctor or a specialist to see what had happened so I had to reluctantly give up my wife (shooting), hope that it would just heal up on its own in the meantime so one day pie-in-the-sky I could shoot again, and just work on my degree. So I kind of had to drop out of sight because it just plain hurt too much to shoot a bow.

These days, in my 50's I remain just as obsessed, and have to be very careful about tendonitis, rotator cuff and all the other little aches and pains. Right now I'm still trying to choose between concentrating on recurve or compound - recurve is what I really want to shoot in my heart of hearts, but I've reached a point where I can't self-teach anymore (unlike compound which I do pretty well at on my own so far).

But I just thought that comment was funny - I thought everyone obsessively shot a bow all the time lol. 

D


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## Viper1 (Aug 21, 2003)

D - 

While it would be silly to believe that all athletic coaches should have MDs after their names, some knowledge about how the body works, at least in the activity they are teaching IS necessary. We are talking about physical activities after all, and they all have assigned risks. 

My other point was that your coach, should have at the least been able to "find" you lighter limbs - preferably before the injury got too serious.
There are certain "red flags" where I've told students to stop shooting, take a week off, or even longer to let an injury heal and then try to get them back into it gradually. 

Dropping someone completely, the way you made it sound just doesn't sound like a good coaching practice, but I may have misread what you said.

Viper1 out.


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## dmacey (Mar 27, 2015)

Viper1 said:


> D -
> 
> While it would be silly to believe that all athletic coaches should have MDs after their names, some knowledge about how the body works, at least in the activity they are teaching IS necessary. We are talking about physical activities after all, and they all have assigned risks.
> 
> ...


Well I don't want to misrepresent my side of it too. I did kind of disappear and stop showing up to the team practices, so I may have given the impression of being fair-weather. I definitely had a hand in it too and I take responsibility there - I should have been more vocal that I was injured but I was still desperately wanting to shoot. I didn't really do my part there on that. I think it wasn't even until a semester or two later that I realized just how bad the injury was and truly put the bow away, bolting it to the floor and forgetting the combination if I had to lol.

If nothing else, it's taught me the caution against overdoing it now in my 50s, even when I can afford a set of 16lb limbs. 

But I reman totally obsessed; I have target butts setup in the bathroom and I shoot in the apt. on my lunch break, and then in the evening after I get home from work. Then when the wind isn't blowing I go out to the outdoors range, etc.... 

Unfortunately, I haven't found a recurve coach here yet. I'm having a difficulty on the "back end" where I start collapsing after about 10 or 15 arrows that I can't debug on my own right now (I suspect I'm not staying in the back muscles but I need a skilled observer to watch me). So if I really want to pursue recurve, it's time for a good going over with a good coach. Fortunately, at my age, I'm very teachable and if a coach says lets redo everything I'll stop and redo everything lol... 

So love this thread if for no other reason than it gets into the heads of top-tier coaches.
Anyway, sorry folks, I didn't mean to derail the thread..

D


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

D, grab a Southwest ticket from Albuquerque to Austin, and come see me. I'd love to work with you.


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## dmacey (Mar 27, 2015)

limbwalker said:


> D, grab a Southwest ticket from Albuquerque to Austin, and come see me. I'd love to work with you.


I'd love that more than anything lol. Where do you instruct there? (I lived in Austin for about 20 years before I moved away in '06). If I can get some vacation from my job, I just might take you up on that...

D


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

I'm about halfway between Austin and Houston. Halfway from San Antonio to Houston as well. 

1:15 from the Austin airport and 1:30 from Hobby and Bush Int.


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## Archer 4 Life (Oct 27, 2008)

This thread hits a spot with me. Being in Dallas during college, I had access to wonderful facilities and many of my archery friends when shooting. Every single day I'd try and hit the range, and I'd enjoy the company of my friends and part of my family shooting with me. The jokes, the seriousness, it was all shared. I was able to improve myself and work with others, and it was fun watching the kids grow and improve along the way.

Now that I've graduated, I live and work in Waco. I've been here since March 26th, and I've shot with maybe ten people total since shooting at both the indoor and the outdoor range here. It's a lonely, boring world for archery here, and it's hard to motivate myself to hit the range when I know I'll be alone for an hour or two. I often find myself saying "I'll go tomorrow," and then putting it off the next day as well. I never realized how much companionship helps you train until I was totally alone here. My coach is in Tennessee, my friends are in Dallas, and my competitors are spread out everywhere. Training feels more boring than ever before.


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## dmacey (Mar 27, 2015)

limbwalker said:


> I'm about halfway between Austin and Houston. Halfway from San Antonio to Houston as well.
> 
> 1:15 from the Austin airport and 1:30 from Hobby and Bush Int.


Ok, thanks John. I'll be competing with my compound this summer and working up with my recurve along with. Towards fall I plan to transition over to my recurve all the time. If I'm going to work with an olympian, I want to be completely committed so I don't waste your time lol. But I'll be in touch (my sister still lives in Austin so that'd probably be a good place to meet up). 
Thanks, D


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Compound, barebow, recurve. I don't care. I teach them all, although admittedly I'm not as qualified in compound as the other two. There are better compound coaches to choose from in the state, like Jesse Johnson, Adam Guggisberg, Tom Barker and others.


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## dmacey (Mar 27, 2015)

limbwalker said:


> Compound, barebow, recurve. I don't care. I teach them all, although admittedly I'm not as qualified in compound as the other two. There are better compound coaches to choose from in the state, like Jesse Johnson, Adam Guggisberg, Tom Barker and others.


Well, recurve is really where I have trouble, but glad to hear you also coach compound. 

And perhaps I can parlay this into some questions for the coaches in the group, since i've often thought about these items:
- Do you all have a sense of older shooters either preferring or being encouraged towards the compound vs. olympic style recurve? I get an impression that there's this idea of a "natural progression" (especially for older shooters) from olympic style recurve to the compound. As if you're sort of expected to "graduate" eventually to a compound and leave the recurve for the kids who want to go to the olympics lol. Do any of ya'll encounter this in your coaching or just general shooting activies?
- Do you all notice any different approaches to coaching older vs younger shooters? That is, any notable, consistent personality differences that you have to tailor your coaching style to?

I'm just curious because I feel a little bit like a fish out of water - an old guy who's shot a lot of compound who wants to transition (back) to olympic style recurve. That seems to kind of go upsteam of the "expected" pattern? I don't have olympic aspirations (too late in the game) but the recurve is just the type I enjoy shooting the most.

Thanks for any insights!

D


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Here's my take after shooting, coaching and being around elite archers who use all three:

Compound and Barebow are mentally demanding but physically easier. Olympic recurve is physically demanding, but mentally easier. 

Pick your poison. 

The reason you don't see a whole lot of older folks shooting Oly. recurve is because to maintain a decent level of proficiency, you cannot take long breaks from shooting.

With compound and barebow, you can take breaks and come back very close to where you left off. Not so with Olympic. Between the total mass weight of a competitive setup, no let-off, and the slave-driving clicker, it flat wears you out.


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## dmacey (Mar 27, 2015)

Ok, thats kind of my finding too. I can not pick up my compound target bow for 2 weeks and then one day go shoot a 290 with no practice (290 being very high level for me, I'm not anywhere near competitive in general compound yet). But if I leave my recurve alone for 2 or 3 days, I lose contact with my shot and it takes a while to remember everything I'm supposed to do.

I'm definitely planning on some years before even working up to a competition weight on recurve (tho I plan to probably try to shoot in a league in the fall even with my 16lb long limbs)....

Thanks for the insight!

D


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