# More pro's explaing release execution



## Iowa shooter

Watch this at Bowjunky posted on January 13th
Start at about 3 minutes 20 seconds into it.

ATA 2015 Release Aid Shooting Tips Seminar!


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## D-Bak

Link missing?


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## Ned250




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## Iowa shooter

Jesse Broadwater, Reo Wilde, Dan McCarthy


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## SonnyThomas

Other means of using a hinge has been going for some 2 years and more. Daniel Boone's Thread, Jan. 25, 2012 for example.

Even so, when someone says "hinge" it's automatically "back tension" and then comes; "move the elbow back, squeeze your shoulder blades together and a few more this and thats."

Is there a manufacturer of hinges giving instructions other than back tension? I personally spoke with Doug Springer, Stanislawski, when I bought my first Stan through Doug and then Rick (?) when I got the Blackjack and Onyx (3 years ago?). Each time it was back tension, not using the other ways....
Stanislawski is dealer oriented. Doug set me up with my first Stan through Obsession Archery here in Illinois.


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## Lazarus

SonnyThomas said:


> Other means of using a hinge has been going for some 2 years and more. Daniel Boone's Thread, Jan. 25, 2012 for example.
> 
> Even so, when someone says "hinge" it's automatically "back tension" and then comes; "move the elbow back, squeeze your shoulder blades together and a few more this and thats."
> 
> Is there a manufacturer of hinges giving instructions other than back tension? I personally spoke with Doug Springer, Stanislawski, when I bought my first Stan through Doug and then Rick (?) when I got the Blackjack and Onyx (3 years ago?). Each time it was back tension, not using the other ways....
> Stanislawski is dealer oriented. Doug set me up with my first Stan through Obsession Archery here in Illinois.


Good luck getting those that have perpetuated the myth of "back tension" as it relates to firing a release to admit that it's a myth. Ain't happening. Ever. 

There is some good info in this video. I didn't hear anything really new, but good. 

I particularly like the part at around 25 minutes when Jesse is holding a finger punch release, it looked to me like he was saying "ewwww" inside.


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## Padgett

I just spent my morning watching the complete two videos of the tru ball pro shooters on the sight setup and shooting releases and I couldn't be happier with the confidence that right here on archery talk we are saying the same good things.

Sweet.


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## Ned250

SonnyThomas said:


> Other means of using a hinge has been going for some 2 years and more. Daniel Boone's Thread, Jan. 25, 2012 for example.
> 
> Even so, when someone says "hinge" it's automatically "back tension" and then comes; "move the elbow back, squeeze your shoulder blades together and a few more this and thats."
> 
> Is there a manufacturer of hinges giving instructions other than back tension? I personally spoke with Doug Springer, Stanislawski, when I bought my first Stan through Doug and then Rick (?) when I got the Blackjack and Onyx (3 years ago?). Each time it was back tension, not using the other ways....
> Stanislawski is dealer oriented. Doug set me up with my first Stan through Obsession Archery here in Illinois.


I was amused to hear Jesse call it a back tension release instead of a hinge.


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## Padgett

Yeah, i have been on a personal mission to stop two of our common statements. One is calling a hinge a back tension release and second is using the term firing engine instead of calling the firing a release back tension. To me both of these phrases get new shooters off to a bad start and confusion to where to even begin.


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## SonnyThomas

Padgett, little discussion. I hear it, but it just seems one has to use "real" back tension with a hinge to understand what it takes to fire a index or thumb release with back tension. The index trigger has to be pulled in a manner. Most "pull," or draw into the wall and natural is for the release hand to clinch, fingers and thumb. The index and thumb release will fire no matter what. The hinge, if the release arm/elbow is out, pivot point not good, it's hard to make fire with back tension. And over in General Discussion; "I learned back tension in just one afternoon," if not sooner...


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## Stringster

Good seminar!


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## EPLC

SonnyThomas said:


> Padgett, little discussion. I hear it, but it just seems one has to use "real" back tension with a hinge to understand what it takes to fire a index or thumb release with back tension. The index trigger has to be pulled in a manner. Most "pull," or draw into the wall and natural is for the release hand to clinch, fingers and thumb. The index and thumb release will fire no matter what. The hinge, if the release arm/elbow is out, pivot point not good, it's hard to make fire with back tension. And over in General Discussion; "I learned back tension in just one afternoon," if not sooner...


If BT is BS then why would you want to do that? There's tons of evidence that this has been a complete sales marketing hoax... Pass the Kool-Aid


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## PSE Archer

Most assimilate back tension to just squezzing a rhomboid. It is more than that. 

Back tension would be your key to hold the bow at full draw after "transfer". LAN2 should be your concentration of movement. Not squeezing a rhomboid muscle. Concentrating on squeezing a muscle can creat tension. 

Different strikes for different folks. But I know thats how Brady Ellison does it. The same can be applied to compound.


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## montigre

Excellent close up video Jesse B just posted to YouTube of him just flinging some arrows down range: You can get a good visual of the "relaxation method" in use.


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## Lazarus

montigre said:


> Excellent close up video Jesse B just posted to YouTube of him just flinging some arrows down range: You can get a good visual of the "relaxation method" in use.


There's only two parts to shooting a bow. Pulling, and letting go. If you're pulling, you're not letting go. If you're letting go, you aren't pulling. Very simple. ^^^ *THIS* is letting go. The reason pulling and letting go has never got a "sexy" name pinned on it like "back tension" is because there's no voodoo to sell with it.


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## SonnyThomas

EPLC said:


> If BT is BS then why would you want to do that? There's tons of evidence that this has been a complete sales marketing hoax... Pass the Kool-Aid


Where did I note BT is BS? Said is; "All releases can be fired with back tension." How can one fire a index or thumb release if they don't know how back tension works? Or better yet, how do they know they're using back tension when the index or thumb release will fire no matter what? They have triggers.

And "all releases?" Tension or pull through releases speak for themselves. They don't work through rotation, not that I've seen. I watched strong man wear himself out one morning. He was trying to use back tension to fire his new Carter Revolution. I tell him it's a pull through release and just try pulling through. Not amazing to me, it worked. The man happily practiced, and most accurately, for his remain time...
Carter Ad; "Release Activates from Increasing Resistance and Not from Rotation." 

Said is; "Shooting/learning a hinge may take weeks even months before becoming proficient." Most who learn shooting a hinge then find shooting up or down hill another area to learn the hinge....


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## montigre

Lazarus said:


> The reason pulling and letting go has never got a "sexy" name pinned on it like "back tension" is because there's no voodoo to sell with it.


I believe the term "back tension" came into being as a result of the shift in execution technique that occurred when bow technology moved away from round wheels and mile long valleys to bows with cams with positive draw stops and very short valleys. 

Shooters had to transition from executing their shot from the perceived center of the valley to doing so from a fairly stationary wall. This necessitated developing an added force to maintain the shooter at a constant pressure against the positive stops (wall). It was found that the needed force was best accomplished by utilizing the large, strong muscles of the back rather than those of the arms. This would allow for sufficient rearward force being applied during the hold to maintain constant pressure against the stops without adding additional movement to the shooting platform which is often the result when tension is allowed to build in the arm muscles.

Thus the phrase “back tension” came into being as a means to easily explain the use of the back muscles to hold the modern compound bow against its stops instead of the much weaker and less stable arm muscles. 

I do not believe there was some clandestine marketing push going on at the time. Shooters simply had to learn how to best shoot this new system, that is all there is to it…no voodoo involved at all.


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## Lazarus

montigre, The term back tension was being used in archery circles before the compound bow and releases were invented. 

The voodoo of "back tension" I am referring to is the term that was converted (from it's rightful meaning) to (inaccurately) reference a perceived method of firing a release. It's a myth, it's always been a myth. All of the popular "back tension" releases require motion to fire, just like a trigger. There are many ways to induce that motion, all proper ways to fire them originate at the hand/wrist. Yes, there are a couple of odd release models out there that are pull thru's but that's not what we're referring to.


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## EPLC

Funny, didn't someone post recently just the opposite theory? I think I'll stick with the marketing ploy as the term "back tension" has sold a ton of goods and services, books, etc. just like "lather, rinse and repeat" sold a lot of shampoo.


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## Atascaderobow

^^^^^+1. I'm a new shooter not an expert but, for me, that is the best description I have read for "back tension". Between your description and Padgett's comment things have really been cleared up for me. Thanks

It brings up a question that I will post under a different topic to avoid completely derailed the initial post.


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## montigre

Lazarus, I agree. Using a standard hinge or hook, the release will not fire unless it is rotated by whatever of the many methods the shooter chooses to employ. :smile:


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## Lazarus

EPLC said:


> Funny, didn't someone post recently just the opposite theory? I think I'll stick with the marketing ploy as the term "back tension" has sold a ton of goods and services, books, etc. just like "lather, rinse and repeat" sold a lot of shampoo.


Yeah, and in the 60's cigarette ads that said "Most doctors prefer Camels" sold a lot of cigarettes. :wink: Just for the record, I don't believe in voodoo. :teeth:


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## cbrunson

I think one thing that is overlooked with this concept, is the setting up of the release. Each release is different, and each shooter’s idea of where or when the hook should break from the sear is different. I’ve used a few different ones that were easy to set up with locked fingers and a simple pull will fire them once you get set and have the right amount of tension. Others seemed to require more hand effort, which I didn’t like. I think it has to do with the head location in relation to the index finger, then obviously the position of the sear. I actually noticed this when using a sweet spot. With the head rotating until you lock it in place with the safety switch, you can try different handle positions without effecting travel of the sear. With the head closer to in line with the index finger, the pull is easier. It will fire by pulling straight back. Back tension, arm tension, whatever you choose to call it. The further you move the head around before you lock it down (away from index finger), the harder it is to fire by just pulling. With it perfectly flat, fingers evenly holding the weight, you noticeably have to induce some hand rotation to fire it. That is similar to a colder setting on a normal hinge. There is a new hinge on the market that incorporates that concept and I think it is brilliant. I don’t endorse that company or any company, I just really like the idea. I’m not even shooting a hinge right now.


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## Stringster

I tried reading through all of the comments but hopefully this hasnt already been stated! Remember "Back Tension" is a style of shooting not a type of release. The being said the new hinge releases dont suddenly allow you to start shooting the back tension style, they allow you to do it easily and more efficiently. The purpose of the hinge is to create a "Surprise" shot so you are unable to do the last minute unintensional movements and to get the cleanest most uninterupted shots.


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## SonnyThomas

Stringster, this sort of exploration. Back tension is there, but getting out now are other means are being used to fire the hinge. The "surprise" is there, just made to happen differently.


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## EPLC

Since we seem to be winging it, here's mine: 

In the 70's the hinge release was first introduced by Stanislawski Archery Products. Someone must have said, "how do you shoot the damn thing?" I assume that after a lot of thought, trial and error the term "Back Tension" was applied to the instruction. It obviously caught on and very quickly became a very effective marketing tool. Seeing this "buzz word" as a chance to sell stuff besides releases, more and more began using the term for their own gain. As time went on more and more opinion was added, including the "moving the hand is a capital offence" edict that was promoted right here on AT by some of the early "experts". I know I was negatively impacted by this and always in the back of my mind I felt like I was never doing it right. I can't tell you how much effort I've wasted in trying to keep my hand out of the release process. Of course now that the cat is out of the bag I feel kind of foolish... But then isn't everything you read on the internet factual?


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## Padgett

You are exactly right EPLC, when I first started trying to shoot a hinge I had been told the same thing over and over here on archery talk and it was right around 2008-2010. I suffered for 2 years before I finally woke up and started to see the truth. I was so worried about moving a finger that my hand was so locked up that it was a miracle I ever fired a shot. I was here and reading everything I could find and there was simply nothing or nobody stepping up to help get people on the right track, just throwing out the phrase back tension and subconscious and jamming them down our throat didn't work and long discussions about how those things must happen also didn't really help. 

Archery talk is different now and isn't going back to the way it used to be anytime soon because now that Levi has stepped up and opened a huge door for us now we have some actual truth to stand on.


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## SonnyThomas

Here is Stanislawski's description of years past......

*Back Tension Explained*
The word back tension is used often when describing shot execution. Many shooters are mysti-it requires a medical degree and a body chart to locate ambiguous muscle groups that must be flexed and pinched at just the right interval while poking at your release trigger. Ultimately, it is a confusing distraction that takes our mind off aiming, and aiming is the most important task that must be completed without distraction to complete the perfect shot. Without perfect aim, feel. We refer to it as dynamic tension. Dynamic Tension is set up at the beginning of the draw and it continues through the release of the arrow. We feel that it is second only to aiming as the key fundamental part of shooting form that generates accuracy and consistency. The feel that you get with Dynamic Tension is the constant rearward pressure against the bow while you aim.

*What is Dynamic Tension?*
Dynamic Tension is a simple technique. You need to feel a balance between the solid bow arm and the pulling pressure of the release hand. The feeling should be like stretching a band be-tween your bow hand and your release hand. This stretch increases as you commit to the shot.
Most pro shooters set up their dynamic tension when they raise the bow to the target. The muscles that you use to draw the bow are the very same muscles that you use to aim the bow, and the back muscles will give you the most stability. As you reach full draw you should pull the bow into the stops and continue to apply mild pressure as you align your peep with the scope and the dot with the X. Once everything is centered and anchored in the center of the target, you will then commit to the shot. Slightly increase the tension against the bow. Begin relaxing the hand through the shot (we will explain relaxing through the shot a little later.) Dynamic Tension reduces the amount of muscle groups involved in the shot. This will
diminish muscle tremors that can cause sudden misses, quick shots, and general unsteadiness.

*Activating the Release by Relaxing Through the Shot*
Whether you are using a triggerless Stan or one of our models that are trigger activated, the technique is the same with only minor adjustments. The art of activating the release is pretty basic. Essentially what should happen is as you pull against the bow and build dynamic tension between you and the bow, you will allow your index and middle finger to yield or soften against your pulling pressure. If you are shooting a Triggerless Stan, that yield of pressure causes the release to rotate just enough to cause it to fire giving you a complete surprise re-lease. If you are shooting a Thumb button the you will start with a heavier than normal trigger tension. Wrap your thumb or finger over the trigger and apply a tiny amount of pressure to it. As you pull and allow your index finger to yield to the pressure, the tension transfers to the button or trigger. This slight transfer of pressure as you relax your hand through the shot will cause a nice smooth surprise release. Ultimately you are striving for a surprise release. You do not want to be concerned when it is going to fire.

A perfect shot would seem something like this: You draw the bow and squeeze into the stops. You align the peep and scope and bring the target into view. You will give it a half a beat to begin its normal motion in the center of the target (depending on experience this will be a little wobbly or very steady. Practice and conditioning will improve your hold over time.) Your sight is as steady as it ever gets and you commit to the shot. Allow your Dynamic tension to build on your release fingers through pulling into the stops. The tip of your elbow is in perfect line with the dot in your scope and it is pulling straight away. To activate the shot your index finger sof-tens on the release and allows the handle to pivot slightly (there is very little perceivable mo-tion here, but you can feel it) and POOF! The shot is released. You hold the form for about 3 beats for follow through and you are ready to reset. You have just shot a perfect arrow. You can adjust the speed of your release to get the proper feel and timing.

*Transferring the Feel to Your Bow*
As you get used to the feel of Dynamic Tension and you get used to yielding through the re-lease to activate the shot, your exercise with the shooting loop will be important. It will help you memorize the feel and commit it to muscle memory. The more automatic these motions are before you go to the bow, the more consistent your shot sequence will be. An easy way to transfer the feel to your bow is to shoot at a very close range without a target. When shooting the blank bale, it is important that you do not aim at anything, and resist the temptation to aim at your previous arrow. The point of this exercise is to acquaint yourself with the feel of shoot-
ing with your new release without the extra distraction of aiming. Remember, these exercises can be boring and it is tempting to skip forward and begin shooting as normal, but the more time you spend here developing a broad foundation through these exercises; the more accurate you will be in the long run. Spend enough time at this stage to get your shot execution as nor-mal and comfortable as you can. Compare the feel to the shooting string to be sure that you have it down.

*Incorporating the Feel Into Your Full Shot Routine*
The final step is to learn to aim and commit shot execution to muscle memory and allow it to happen naturally. For many shooters, sight movement and release problems are correlated, so learning to accept sight movement and continue with great shot execution is important. One of the best ways to accomplish this is to start off shooting targets at a very close range. Set up a target and shoot a few well aimed shots at 5 yards. Be mindful of the release and be sure that the feel and speed feels the same as it does with your string and the bow on the blank bale. Once you are comfortable with this, you can step back to ten yards. If you really want to get the full use of this exercise you can shoot full games on your favorite target to build confidence and get used to the feel of the automatic release while your sight moves in the center of the target. When you feel like you have it down and your shot execution feels great, you can step back to 15 yards and repeat. Slowly stepping back and gradually getting used to accepting sight movement will help your shot execution remain con-sistent. As you get better and become a stronger archer, your sight movement will get smaller and smaller and your average will rise along with your improve-ments. Following these simple steps to acquaint yourself with your new Stan release and its function will take you a long way towards higher scores and overall consistency."


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## Padgett

I have talked to more than one of the companies about knowing this stuff and the people who are freaking buying their releases simply do not have access to any of this material, this kind of stuff should be printed onto a little folded up piece of paper and inside the package that you get the release in. Then there should be a pdf file on their website where you can click on a icon that says " here is how to set up your hinge and also shoot it". 

There are hundreds of people buying them and they have absolutely no access to this stuff, sure here on archery talk right now it is hard to not get it because guys like me are offering it out like candy but there are many many shooters who don't come here.


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## SonnyThomas

Pick the above apart and you'll find much of what we've being discussing throughout many our discussions.

I've got much in my computer, but most has been transferred from my original computer. I have go on line to get means of translating so damn much. 2$%$^$#%% computers...


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## Padgett

My thing is getting to the good information shouldn't be as hard as it really is and we need to do better. The companies spend tons of time producing so many good releases and just like the backspin guys bought them and then they flooded the classifieds not because they suck but because so many people have no idea how to shoot them. I find that for 1 local shooter on the 3d courses that is proficient with a hinge there are 10 guys shooting them and suffering and 30 guys who tried them for a weekend and hated them to never touch one again.


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## EPLC

SonnyThomas said:


> Here is Stanislawski's description of years past......
> 
> *Back Tension Explained*
> The word back tension is used often when describing shot execution. Many shooters are mysti-it requires a medical degree and a body chart to locate ambiguous muscle groups that must be flexed and pinched at just the right interval while poking at your release trigger. Ultimately, it is a confusing distraction that takes our mind off aiming, and aiming is the most important task that must be completed without distraction to complete the perfect shot. Without perfect aim, feel. We refer to it as dynamic tension. Dynamic Tension is set up at the beginning of the draw and it continues through the release of the arrow. We feel that it is second only to aiming as the key fundamental part of shooting form that generates accuracy and consistency. The feel that you get with Dynamic Tension is the constant rearward pressure against the bow while you aim.
> 
> *What is Dynamic Tension?*
> Dynamic Tension is a simple technique. You need to feel a balance between the solid bow arm and the pulling pressure of the release hand. The feeling should be like stretching a band be-tween your bow hand and your release hand. This stretch increases as you commit to the shot.
> Most pro shooters set up their dynamic tension when they raise the bow to the target. The muscles that you use to draw the bow are the very same muscles that you use to aim the bow, and the back muscles will give you the most stability. As you reach full draw you should pull the bow into the stops and continue to apply mild pressure as you align your peep with the scope and the dot with the X. Once everything is centered and anchored in the center of the target, you will then commit to the shot. Slightly increase the tension against the bow. Begin relaxing the hand through the shot (we will explain relaxing through the shot a little later.) Dynamic Tension reduces the amount of muscle groups involved in the shot. This will
> diminish muscle tremors that can cause sudden misses, quick shots, and general unsteadiness.
> 
> *Activating the Release by Relaxing Through the Shot*
> Whether you are using a triggerless Stan or one of our models that are trigger activated, the technique is the same with only minor adjustments. The art of activating the release is pretty basic. Essentially what should happen is as you pull against the bow and build dynamic tension between you and the bow, you will allow your index and middle finger to yield or soften against your pulling pressure. If you are shooting a Triggerless Stan, that yield of pressure causes the release to rotate just enough to cause it to fire giving you a complete surprise re-lease. If you are shooting a Thumb button the you will start with a heavier than normal trigger tension. Wrap your thumb or finger over the trigger and apply a tiny amount of pressure to it. As you pull and allow your index finger to yield to the pressure, the tension transfers to the button or trigger. This slight transfer of pressure as you relax your hand through the shot will cause a nice smooth surprise release. Ultimately you are striving for a surprise release. You do not want to be concerned when it is going to fire.
> 
> A perfect shot would seem something like this: You draw the bow and squeeze into the stops. You align the peep and scope and bring the target into view. You will give it a half a beat to begin its normal motion in the center of the target (depending on experience this will be a little wobbly or very steady. Practice and conditioning will improve your hold over time.) Your sight is as steady as it ever gets and you commit to the shot. Allow your Dynamic tension to build on your release fingers through pulling into the stops. The tip of your elbow is in perfect line with the dot in your scope and it is pulling straight away. To activate the shot your index finger sof-tens on the release and allows the handle to pivot slightly (there is very little perceivable mo-tion here, but you can feel it) and POOF! The shot is released. You hold the form for about 3 beats for follow through and you are ready to reset. You have just shot a perfect arrow. You can adjust the speed of your release to get the proper feel and timing.
> 
> *Transferring the Feel to Your Bow*
> As you get used to the feel of Dynamic Tension and you get used to yielding through the re-lease to activate the shot, your exercise with the shooting loop will be important. It will help you memorize the feel and commit it to muscle memory. The more automatic these motions are before you go to the bow, the more consistent your shot sequence will be. An easy way to transfer the feel to your bow is to shoot at a very close range without a target. When shooting the blank bale, it is important that you do not aim at anything, and resist the temptation to aim at your previous arrow. The point of this exercise is to acquaint yourself with the feel of shoot-
> ing with your new release without the extra distraction of aiming. Remember, these exercises can be boring and it is tempting to skip forward and begin shooting as normal, but the more time you spend here developing a broad foundation through these exercises; the more accurate you will be in the long run. Spend enough time at this stage to get your shot execution as nor-mal and comfortable as you can. Compare the feel to the shooting string to be sure that you have it down.
> 
> *Incorporating the Feel Into Your Full Shot Routine*
> The final step is to learn to aim and commit shot execution to muscle memory and allow it to happen naturally. For many shooters, sight movement and release problems are correlated, so learning to accept sight movement and continue with great shot execution is important. One of the best ways to accomplish this is to start off shooting targets at a very close range. Set up a target and shoot a few well aimed shots at 5 yards. Be mindful of the release and be sure that the feel and speed feels the same as it does with your string and the bow on the blank bale. Once you are comfortable with this, you can step back to ten yards. If you really want to get the full use of this exercise you can shoot full games on your favorite target to build confidence and get used to the feel of the automatic release while your sight moves in the center of the target. When you feel like you have it down and your shot execution feels great, you can step back to 15 yards and repeat. Slowly stepping back and gradually getting used to accepting sight movement will help your shot execution remain con-sistent. As you get better and become a stronger archer, your sight movement will get smaller and smaller and your average will rise along with your improve-ments. Following these simple steps to acquaint yourself with your new Stan release and its function will take you a long way towards higher scores and overall consistency."


Years past? What is your source material? This is actually quite good material, I'm guessing GRIV may have written it as it sounds like his stuff?


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## Lazarus

SonnyThomas said:


> Here is Stanislawski's description of years past......
> 
> The feel that you get with Dynamic Tension is the constant rearward pressure against the bow while you aim.


The point being Sonny, the above statement is just good, solid shooting practice put into words!!! Can you imagine shooting form (of any style) that does anything less than put constant rearward pressure against the bow while you aim? To suggest anything else is sillyness. (Unless of course you are shooting truly instinctively, but that is another matter entirely.) This statement isn't anything new even in 1970! Furthermore, it still doesn't suggest a style of setting the release off. 

It's really sad that a myth (back tension as a method of firing a release) has such a hold on this sport. As some have already pointed out, it really holds people back from discovering a really easy (and fun) way to shoot. That's why I'll go to my grave fighting the fight to expose the myth. 

True story. I am actually a converted "button" shooter. But I haven't picked one up in probably two years. I was working on my 9 year olds bow this morning and thought, ya know, I'm just gonna shoot a few shots with this TruBall thumb button of his. I shot one shot and liked to keeled over trying to get it go off, and had to think about three different things in the process. Probably be a while before I try that again. It's much easier to just get on the dot and tell the hand to flatten out and "let go" with a hinge.


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## SonnyThomas

Padgett, I just asked that above of Stanislawski to be improved, put in PDF, on site.


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## ron w

it was available,.. you had to know who to talk to, at that time. the information was no different than it is now, it's just that it is all now available on line . I learned to shoot a hinge in 1974, I was taught using the exact same information as what you can find on line, now,... the difference is that, at that time,... it had to come from word of mouth, from someone who new the information....which at that time,.... were few, compared to now.
the information hasn't changed, just the way it is available, has.


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## SonnyThomas

EPLC said:


> Years past? What is your source material? This is actually quite good material, I'm guessing GRIV may have written it as it sounds like his stuff?


That was written by Stanislawski or least when Mel still owned Stanislawski.


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## EPLC

Not quite Sonny. I was right about that article, not as old as you would think. Check this out from 2004 by GRIV... http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=92922&p=709615#post709615 This was obviously the basis of the Stan article. 

Also, you might want to take a look at the entire thread I started concerning this very topic. Interesting my comments about not moving the hand as I had already swallowed the Kool-Aid, hook, line and sinker. http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=92922&highlight=Dynamic


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## Lazarus

ron w said:


> I learned to shoot a hinge in 1974, I was taught using the exact same information as what you can find on line, now


You probably have a better memory than me, but are you certain about that date? I'm not certain the hinge had even hit the market in 1974. I was still shooting a rope/spike for training and a Hot Shot for competition in 1974. I may have to dig into it further unless you can set me on the right path.


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## SonnyThomas

Michelle Ragsdale? > If you are shooting a Thumb button the you will start with a heavier than normal trigger tension.

Something of other means to fire now being releases? > To activate the shot your index finger sof-tens on the release and allows the handle to pivot slightly (there is very little perceivable mo-tion here, but you can feel it) and POOF! The shot is released---


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## SonnyThomas

Lazarus said:


> You probably have a better memory than me, but are you certain about that date? I'm not certain the hinge had even hit the market in 1974. I was still shooting a rope/spike for training and a Hot Shot for competition in 1974. I may have to dig into it further unless you can set me on the right path.


Stanislawski - 1972, if by their recent "More."


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## Lazarus

Ron.....I was mistaken in the statement below. I was not shooting a Hot Shot in 74. Only a rope spike.



Lazarus said:


> You probably have a better memory than me, but are you certain about that date? I'm not certain the hinge had even hit the market in 1974. I was still shooting a rope/spike for training and a Hot Shot for competition in 1974. I may have to dig into it further unless you can set me on the right path.


Almost all the releases were home made in 1974. There were a couple of crude triggers on the market but none that survived, I think. 

Sorry to get off track here guys. I'm passionate about this stuff. :teeth:


----------



## Lazarus

SonnyThomas said:


> Stanislawski - 1972, if by their recent "More."


I don't believe that's when Mel started making hinges. I'm checking. 

Sorry again, I got this off track.


----------



## SonnyThomas

EPLC said:


> Not quite Sonny. I was right about that article, not as old as you would think. Check this out from 2004 by GRIV... http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=92922&p=709615#post709615 This was obviously the basis of the Stan article.
> 
> Also, you might want to take a look at the entire thread I started concerning this very topic. Interesting my comments about not moving the hand as I had already swallowed the Kool-Aid, hook, line and sinker. http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=92922&highlight=Dynamic


I copied the Stanislawski write up from a old form with the heading of; Your Stanislawski. So was is Stanislawski or Griv? Either way it's a good read.

"Following these simple steps to acquaint yourself with *your new Stan release* and its function will take you a long way towards higher scores and overall consistency."

Would Griv note; "your new Stan release?"


----------



## EPLC

He would if he were pitching for Stan, which I think he did after leaving Martin. The article you posted contains, "word for word", much of the content from the GRIV post in 2004. I have to assume the article you posted was written between 2004-2008 or thereabouts. It was certainly not written by Mr. Stanislawski as they sold the company to Copper John in 2001. Interesting that the article you posted supports the current thinking with regard to this topic and NOT the BS that's been floating about BT ever since I can remember. I suggest you may want to take a look at archeryhistory.com as I have this morning. Interesting that nowhere to be found (at least that I can find) are the words "back tension". Even some of the really early releases recommend a relaxing of the hand to execute.


----------



## SonnyThomas

I've got the Archery History link. Stuff in there people won't believe or "relieve" their selves  when they see it or read of it.


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## xavier102772

Good info here. Thanks guys.


----------



## SonnyThomas

Lazarus said:


> The point being Sonny, the above statement is just good, solid shooting practice put into words!!!
> 
> Ben Bishop; "You know, ever once in a while it's nice to visit Square #1.
> 
> True story. I am actually a converted "button" shooter. But I haven't picked one up in probably two years. I was working on my 9 year olds bow this morning and thought, ya know, I'm just gonna shoot a few shots with this TruBall thumb button of his. I shot one shot and liked to keeled over trying to get it go off, and had to think about three different things in the process. Probably be a while before I try that again. It's much easier to just get on the dot and tell the hand to flatten out and "let go" with a hinge.


I've got a spare ST360. Wanna borrow it? Ain't worried about shipping. Set so you can get a feel of the thumb barrel and then just look right through the target until...Poof.


----------



## Lazarus

SonnyThomas said:


> I've got a spare ST360. Wanna borrow it? Ain't worried about shipping. Set so you can get a feel of the thumb barrel and then just look right through the target until...Poof.


:teeth: That is a very generous offer. And I'm sure you're right. I am totally bought in to these here "back tension" releases now. Thank you for the kind offer. :teeth:

By the way, the first "Stan" ad I found advertising a hinge (called then an "adjustable rope release") was in June of 1976. The ad said "Smooth, triggerless pivot action lets you shoot with *back tension* or by slow or fast finger squeezing pressure." Now we know who to kick in the nutsack for starting this whole war. And not a single mention of "relaxed" shooting in the ad. :darkbeer: :teeth:


----------



## EPLC

Lazarus said:


> :teeth: That is a very generous offer. And I'm sure you're right. I am totally bought in to these here "back tension" releases now. Thank you for the kind offer. :teeth:
> 
> By the way, the first "Stan" ad I found advertising a hinge (called then an "adjustable rope release") was in June of 1976. The ad said "Smooth, triggerless pivot action lets you shoot with *back tension* or by slow or fast finger squeezing pressure." Now we know who to kick in the nutsack for starting this whole war. And not a single mention of "relaxed" shooting in the ad. :darkbeer: :teeth:


My theory is getting stronger all the time  (see post #26)


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## cbrunson

Wow. That’s almost 40 years. Talk about withstanding the test of time, and it’s still considered “the” release to use for target archery. (In its various forms of course.) I personally don’t like them. Like Sonny, I prefer a button. I’ve put in the time with them, shooting them for about a year and a half, but found I am much more accurate with a button.


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## TDS

It doesn't look like he waits for the dot to settle before starting his shot execution.


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## Lazarus

EPLC said:


> My theory is getting stronger all the time  (see post #26)


There is no doubt in my mind your post #26 is dead solid perfect.


----------



## SonnyThomas

cbrunson said:


> Wow. That’s almost 40 years. Talk about withstanding the test of time, and it’s still considered “the” release to use for target archery. (In its various forms of course.) I personally don’t like them. Like Sonny, I prefer a button. I’ve put in the time with them, shooting them for about a year and a half, but found I am much more accurate with a button.


40 years then See EPLC's pic, a Ledge. There were different ones and someone usually had a file or stone. A little too much off, just re-cut if enough there.

There are times I wish I never went to a thumb release. Pressured more than anything. I used my Scott Mongoose for everything and placed and won in all archery venues. IAA State Champion in Field, placed in every Field, Indoor and Outdoor Championship, took Indoor Aggregate Award (combined 5 spot and Vegas target, 897). Kevin Koch was said to have the highest score in IAA 3D with a 432 (2003 - I came in 2nd with a 416). Later, 2004?, at a IAA Rendezvous I tied his score, 432.
Switched to a TRU Ball in late 2005, Chappy? with Talon head that could be fired with thumb or Pinky (hairy!). Danny Evans set me up with a ST360 in 2006 after my TRU Ball ST3 froze up and I've been shooting that same release ever since and I have a spare just in case.

Hinges. I can do well, never confident...And EPLC got me thinking...Too many back injuries maybe. Broke once. Back looked like a train wreck once. Ruptured disc (twice). Bow shoulder blade area ripped and lost use of bow arm for weeks (dead at times and then would go to floppy). Accident at work tore muscles from shoulder blade to shoulder blade.


----------



## EPLC

Lazarus said:


> There is no doubt in my mind your post #26 is dead solid perfect.


And then the problem really took off with the internet forums like AIN and AT where large numbers of folks (including myself) could be indoctrinated in a very short time. They in turn would take this information as Gospel and continue spreading the myth. Around 2001 the books started to cash in spreading more BS. In looking at some of my old posts from back then I was, without a doubt, feeding the frenzy as well. Even back then some of the pros were warning us about this but we were so convinced... It's no wonder the pros no longer contribute here much anymore, if at all. We must have driven them nuts with the BT avalanche.

My only regret is that I never wrote a book.


----------



## EPLC

ron w said:


> it was available,.. you had to know who to talk to, at that time. the information was no different than it is now, it's just that it is all now available on line . I learned to shoot a hinge in 1974, I was taught using the exact same information as what you can find on line, now,... the difference is that, at that time,... it had to come from word of mouth, from someone who new the information....which at that time,.... were few, compared to now.
> the information hasn't changed, just the way it is available, has.


A little clarification required here Ron? Are you saying Sonny's post and GRIV's post are depicting the correct methodology for shooting a hinge?


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## SonnyThomas

Well, information on the hinge around my parts was 0.000. One person was using a hinge, a Carter and he was..... Heard and read, but never picked up hinge until...2004 or 2005, whenever the Sweet Spot with safety first came out (got it from one who attended the ATA show). A TRU Ball Gold that put me to my knees. A one-on-one phone call with Doug Springer got me trying again...2008 and the same information, back tension. Not a word of that in the Stanislawski instruction sheet I posted...soften the index finger;
X - "As you pull and allow your index finger to yield to the pressure, the tension transfers to the button or trigger"
X - "To activate the shot your index finger sof-tens on the release"


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## bowfisher

TDS said:


> It doesn't look like he waits for the dot to settle before starting his shot execution.


Most of the movement you are seeing is him relaxing to the click and then he starts his engine. I had to put my earphones on to hear the click.


----------



## [email protected]

With a better understanding of releases activation and what is happening on the release side, how would you explain your front half?
Is it more static? Are you feeling an expansion with even pressure? Do you push hard into the X?
Thanks


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## EPLC

[email protected] said:


> With a better understanding of releases activation and what is happening on the release side, how would you explain your front half?
> Is it more static? Are you feeling an expansion with even pressure? Do you push hard into the X?
> Thanks


I can only tell you what I've been working on that seems to be working out quite well.

1. How would you explain your front half? I'm relaxing the front end as much as possible. With good alignment I can get it pretty relaxed.
2. Is it more static? Yes
3. Are you feeling an expansion with even pressure? With a static bow arm, I'm applying enough tension with the release arm to feel the bone to bone setting in nicely. 
4. Do you push hard into the X? No, I'm not pushing at all but I am not collapsing on the bow side either. My tension is achieved by pulling into the stops. I'm also not pulling to get the release to fire, I'm just relaxing the hand while keeping tension even or just a tad more.


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## unclejane

TDS said:


> It doesn't look like he waits for the dot to settle before starting his shot execution.


I'm most amazed by how effortlessly he pulls back 60+ lbs LOL. At how all you folks do that, really. I will say, I'm finally starting to get to where I'm pulling back my Supra Max @ approx. 30lbs with less and less aches/pains over time, tho.

But still, yanking all that weight is where you guys and gals still star-strike me...

LS


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## EPLC

unclejane said:


> I'm most amazed by how effortlessly he pulls back 60+ lbs LOL. At how all you folks do that, really. I will say, I'm finally starting to get to where I'm pulling back my Supra Max @ approx. 30lbs with less and less aches/pains over time, tho.
> 
> But still, yanking all that weight is where you guys and gals still star-strike me...
> 
> LS


Perhaps your drawing technique needs to be refined? Are you using the Alistair Whittingham method?


----------



## unclejane

EPLC said:


> Perhaps your drawing technique needs to be refined? Are you using the Alistair Whittingham method?


To the letter (ep. 7 on YouTube). At this point, it's just a matter of strength-training, modulo aggravating the old injury which I have to be ultra-careful about.

LS


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## EPLC

unclejane said:


> To the letter (ep. 7 on YouTube). At this point, it's just a matter of strength-training, modulo aggravating the old injury which I have to be ultra-careful about.
> 
> LS


Take it slow, you don't want to re-injure yourself. I would video yourself drawing just to make sure you haven't picked up any unusual movement in your draw cycle due to favoring the injury.


----------



## unclejane

EPLC said:


> Take it slow, you don't want to re-injure yourself. I would video yourself drawing just to make sure you haven't picked up any unusual movement in your draw cycle due to favoring the injury.


Well, of the two - favoring the injury and completely good drawing form -, the former will win until I'm sure I'm past being injured. So I'm not completely bent out of shape if I do something kind of clinical during my draw right now. OTOH, I've been able to do AW's "closing movement" for a little over 3 weeks now with my PSE, an approx. max of 30 shafts per day (with some rest days). So I'm honing in on a good drawing form. When I can't do that, I just get the bow back somehow/someway and drop the shoulders in "manually" as suggested by GRIV. Doesn't work as well as good form, but it gets me by for now.

This whole reentry into archery this time around has been an arms race between good form and injury, so I don't get upset right now about still doing some things wrong. My main goal right now is mainly strength training, and correcting goof ups/bad habits as the pain levels go down...

LS


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## EPLC

I think if it were me, I'd back the bow off to a point where I could draw correctly with more reps rather than switching to something different to get around the problem.


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## cbrunson

[email protected] said:


> With a better understanding of releases activation and what is happening on the release side, how would you explain your front half?
> Is it more static? Are you feeling an expansion with even pressure? Do you push hard into the X?
> Thanks


Pretty much exactly what EPLC described. Movement in the enemy of accuracy. Even with a good bone on bone alignment, you will still have a little movement, but it won't be forward and backward.


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## cbrunson

bowfisher said:


> Most of the movement you are seeing is him relaxing to the click and then he starts his engine. I had to put my earphones on to hear the click.


Yes, and for all we know he could be shooting blank bale. We can't see where his dot is or what it's doing. I have no idea what his sight picture is. The only thing I can go off of is mine. Like I've said before, I know you can have considerable movement floating around the X, ten, and even the nine, and still hit an X. I've done it many times. I've also missed and shot a nine with that movement. When I get the dot to settle in with very little to no perceivable movement, in the center, it is an X every time. I know it when the release goes off.


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## unclejane

EPLC said:


> I think if it were me, I'd back the bow off to a point where I could draw correctly with more reps rather than switching to something different to get around the problem.


Took the words right out of my mouth. That's why I have these custom ordered 40lb bows LOL. In fact, I shot a genesis pro for about the first month with it backed all the way off to about 15lbs. I didn't mess around. I cranked it up slowly until I could handle my PSE.... My PSE fortunately shoots very well backed all the way off to 30lbs, and I'm at the point where I can handle 30 pretty well. The super light holding weight is kind of good form training too, since even tiny mistakes really show up...

LS


----------



## Rick!

Lazarus said:


> It's really sad that a myth (back tension as a method of firing a release) has such a hold on this sport. As some have already pointed out, it really holds people back from discovering a really easy (and fun) way to shoot. That's why I'll go to my grave fighting the fight to expose the myth.


So, Larry Wise is a perpetuator of evil myths? GRIV is just a pro has-been that can pen articles with invented nomenclature? Vilifying these guys gets you where?

For the theory touters, are you basing it off of fact or a series of ideas commonly known as conjecture?

I haven't found back tension to be holding back my advancement. It is mostly due to not enough training time. 

I believe the Scott release video from two years ago stated the same release manipulation techniques by some pros and the Scott sales guy. It's not new info except for maybe the geriatric crowd.


----------



## Lazarus

Rick! said:


> So, Larry Wise is a perpetuator of evil myths? GRIV is just a pro has-been that can pen articles with invented nomenclature? Vilifying these guys gets you where?


Larry Wise is a very well respected coach. Ryals is doing a lot to bring kids into the sport. Both of those things are worthy of a great deal of respect. I have no interest in commenting further about any one personally. 

The fact will remain, "back tension" as a means of rotating and firing a release is a myth. It may not be totally impossible to rotate a hinge release using tension in your back to the point that it goes off. But if one chooses to do so it's not likely there will ever be any consistency.


----------



## ron w

I would also like to know why Lazarus thinks that BT is a myth. .....
if it is, what is it that makes you think it is a myth and what evidence an/or proof, can you provide that clearly demonstrates why it is a "myth"...beyond that of what you personally, simply "think" or "opine". 
I've used it for 40 years, I know what it is and how it works.....and know it does work. most commonly, those that think it doesn't work, are people who aren't able to grasp the concept, or don't invest enough time and effort to learn how to do it. that is not "holding someone back", because it is the potential user's decision to be "held back", by not making the investment.


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## Lazarus

ronw, maybe you should explain to us how you shoot this "back tension" method of *firing* a release. You're good at putting thoughts into words. Should be no problem for you. 

As for explanations from this side. It's been explained at length already. No need to cover that over and over and over. But if you really want to boil it down in it's simplicity; you can't fire a hinge without rotation. The rotation happens in your wrist/hand (using several available methods.) If it is even physically possible to *fire* a hinge by continuing to pull there will be no accuracy. 

There. Now, explain away ronw.


----------



## xavier102772

TDS said:


> It doesn't look like he waits for the dot to settle before starting his shot execution.


Looks to me like he is drawing on or slightly above target and the pin/dot has already settled. I know if I draw right on or slightly above, there is little to no time taken to settle and then start running the release. Still working on this as I sometimes bob the sight picture a bit before I start running the release. Working on it though.


----------



## Lazarus

ronw, rick...........here you go, maybe you missed this, listen to the first minute or so real close, especially around the 45 second mark. I think the key word is "nobody" followed shortly after by "can't repeat that." Or something like that. 

This is from someone who's out there doing it (just like a few of us here on the forum,) not someone writing about it or talking about it. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JbJO6u0mLJ8&feature=youtu.be


----------



## xavier102772

I'm not sure if BT can be termed a myth or not. I think a closer term would be dynamic tension, at least as far as the whole shot process is concerned. Back tension technically speaking is pretty much how we are all taught to hold the shot. Hold with your back or hold with back tension. Back tension is how you hold the shot and is part of the dynamic tension in the shot process. I think people get confused and misinformed that back tension is how you release the shot, not how you setup the shot. I think Griv, Padgett and others have it right. The whole Hinge Shooting technique (Thumb release or trigger are not much different at least as far as setup is concerned) can literally be summed up in three short points...

1. Set up dynamic tension on bow side (bow arm) and setup dynamic tension on draw side (rhomboid tension aka back tension). 
*Suppose the real trick and practice will sort this out is just how much tension is needed to create the optimum amount of tension on each side to minimize float.) 
2. Choose a release style while maintaining dynamic tension: Relax the hand technique; Squeeze the 2nd and 3rd fingers technique; Rotate the release technique; or something else technique. 
3. Shot is away.

Simple.


----------



## Lazarus

xavier102772 said:


> 2. Choose a release style while maintaining dynamic tension: Relax the hand technique; Squeeze the 2nd and 3rd fingers technique; Rotate the release technique; or something else technique.


You just nailed it xavier......all of those methods are methods of *firing* a release. None of them have anything to do with the myth of "back tension" *firing* a release.


----------



## cbrunson

ron w said:


> I would also like to know why Lazarus thinks that BT is a myth. .....
> if it is, what is it that makes you think it is a myth and what evidence an/or proof, can you provide that clearly demonstrates why it is a "myth"...beyond that of what you personally, simply "think" or "opine".
> I've used it for 40 years, I know what it is and how it works.....and know it does work. most commonly, those that think it doesn't work, are people who aren't able to grasp the concept, or don't invest enough time and effort to learn how to do it. that is not "holding someone back", because it is the potential user's decision to be "held back", by not making the investment.


You don't prove myths. It is the absense of proof that makes them myths. You can only seek to prove they are truth. Then they would no longer be myths. I also would like to hear in YOUR words, how you fire a hinge without rotating your arm or wrist. Just using your back muscles.


----------



## SonnyThomas

Lazarus said:


> If it is even physically possible to *fire* a hinge by continuing to pull there will be no accuracy.


Only once have I read of "muscling" a release. Terry Wunderle; "Those who are good "muscling" a release don't last very long."

I've been around people who did just that, muscle their hinge. All blamed the bow for having too soft a wall :mg: One had this Hoyt something with Cam&1/2. It was just pin point accurate for me. Another blamed was a Pearson Z34 with Z7 cam (single). Again, I saw the owner pulling that bow in half.


----------



## Padgett

The myth isn't weather or not you can shoot with pure back tension, the myth that was always present was that if you are doing anything to help the hinge rotate that you are not only cheating but you are going to shoot poorly. Most all hinge shooters have had to suck it up mentally and feel like they are making a poor decision by the method that they have chosen other than pure back tension and here lies the problem. Not only have they internally had to mask confidence with a little cloud of doubt that what their method may be hurting them at that moment of truth but they also have had to hide their method from places like archery talk because even a mention of anything but pure back tension would result in a bash fest.

With levi's message that was 100% easy to understand and very clear to everyone that heard it, none of the pro shooters are doing it. If i'm not mistaken that is a 0% statement, its not like he said that only a few of them including himself have stumbled onto something cool and they are getting away with it. He didn't give it a 50% you can choose either because some of us are doing pure back tension and some of us are doing other methods. He pretty much from where I was sitting here in my nice leather walmart office chair was referring to all pro shooters.


----------



## Padgett

Yeah, I went through that muscling it phase. Back then I was really trying to shoot without anything going on with my hand because of the back tension stuff that had been shoved into my thinking over and over so yeah I found some success with muscling the release into the wall I think with a combination of back tension and just pulling straight into the wall. Sometimes it felt good and i got good releases but most of the time it was just a suffer fest. Thanks again to the guys of that era who lead me to thinking that stuff was a good idea.


----------



## ron w

cbrunson said:


> You don't prove myths. It is the absense of proof that makes them myths. You can only seek to prove they are truth. Then they would no longer be myths. I also would like to hear in YOUR words, how you fire a hinge without rotating your arm or wrist. Just using your back muscles.


 I would be happy to explain (edited)
"rhomboids" aren't "back muscles". anatomically, "back muscles" are underneath your rhomboids and you rhomboids work in over-lay to your back muscles.. 
if one is going to be literally sarcastic, one needs to have some knowledge of the details that he or she is trying to discount, or one sounds like a fool.
I've given account of "Back tension", plenty on this site. a simple search will provide you with an answer.
"Proof" works in both affirmative and detractive form. either way, it is "proof" that establishes myth or not. a lack of "proof" still needs to be "proven", that it does not exist.

anything else you're confused about ???.


----------



## EPLC

Does the post that Sonny put up from Stan and the post I linked up from GRIV depict the correct method for shooting a hinge or not?


----------



## EPLC

Rick! said:


> ...I haven't found back tension to be holding back my advancement. It is mostly due to not enough training time.


If you haven't advanced how could you possibly know what the problem is? (further explained below)



ron w said:


> I would also like to know why Lazarus thinks that BT is a myth. .....
> if it is, what is it that makes you think it is a myth and what evidence an/or proof, can you provide that clearly demonstrates why it is a "myth"...beyond that of what you personally, simply "think" or "opine".
> I've used it for 40 years, I know what it is and how it works.....and know it does work. most commonly, those that think it doesn't work, are people who aren't able to grasp the concept, or don't invest enough time and effort to learn how to do it. that is not "holding someone back", because it is the potential user's decision to be "held back", by not making the investment.


This pertains to the both of you: If you haven't advanced to a high level of shooting, how could you possibly know what the problem is? If, in Ron's case, you've shot the same way for 40 years and never really gotten over the hump, isn't it at least possible that your solution may be the problem? Personally, I wasted years thinking hand manipulation was taboo when shooting a hinge, perpetrated by tons of folks that couldn't do it either... I was one of them. Repeating the same mistake over and over and expecting different results is considered insanity by many. Pass the Kool-Aid...


----------



## Padgett

Eplc, I am going to remind you that many of the guys that were telling us that pure back tension was the only way were actually using hand manipulation. Why do I know this? Because I have my buddies watch me shoot during the season sometimes and I ask them to tell me if I am using back tension or yielding or squeeze and pull and they can't tell. I have to tell them what I am doing and more than likely most of the people that were proclaiming pure back tension were actually either knowingly doing it and just not fessing up or doing it and not realizing that they were actually yielding or squeezing some fingers.


----------



## Rick!

Lazarus said:


> The fact will remain, "back tension" as a means of rotating and firing a release is a myth. It may not be totally impossible to rotate a hinge release using tension in your back to the point that it goes off. But if one chooses to do so it's not likely there will ever be any consistency.


Sorry to hear you have not felt as pure a shot as when you add a little back squeeze to a steady hold to send it down the middle. 

Lancaster's on, c'ya.


----------



## cbrunson

ron w said:


> I would be happy to explain (edited)
> "rhomboids" aren't "back muscles". anatomically, "back muscles" are underneath your rhomboids and you rhomboids work in over-lay to your back muscles..
> if one is going to be literally sarcastic, one needs to have some knowledge of the details that he or she is trying to discount, or one sounds like a fool.
> I've given account of "Back tension", plenty on this site. a simple search will provide you with an answer.
> "Proof" works in both affirmative and detractive form. either way, it is "proof" that establishes myth or not. a lack of "proof" still needs to be "proven", that it does not exist.
> 
> anything else you're confused about ???.


In all reality, what I see is some people that actually can shoot, are debunking some the long standing myths that there are certain "correct" ways of shooting a bow or release. For whatever reasons those myths are in place, whether it be for selling books, releases, or coaching, there are in fact people, willing to speak up about the fact that the only things required to be a very good shooter are a good hold, and a smooth repeatable release. 

You disagreeing with that just shows that you disagree. Nothing more. The constant insults and derogatory comments are not masking your ineptitude to simply illustrate verbally what has been requested. We already know you can't demonstrate it physically. That's why you have been given one more opportunity to plead your case with what you DO have at your disposal.......words. If you think that you are at too high of an intellectual level for most of us to understand, perhaps you could dumb it down a little. Be purposely simple and specifc like Levi did in the video.


----------



## Lazarus

Well, I just spent a couple of hours hanging out with a really cool fellow. Name's Matt Stuzman, he's a hoot. So, I check back in here to see if some of the amateur psychologists have added anything to the debate, or if they have given us any evidence that you can (1) first *fire* a hinge using "back tension." And (2) do so accurately even if you can *fire* it. Answer to my question? Crickets. Nothing. 

Carry on.


----------



## rn3

Lazarus said:


> Well, I just spent a couple of hours hanging out with a really cool fellow. Name's Matt Stuzman, he's a hoot. So, I check back in here to see if some of the amateur psychologists have added anything to the debate, or if they have given us any evidence that you can (1) first *fire* a hinge using "back tension." And (2) do so accurately even if you can *fire* it. Answer to my question? Crickets. Nothing.
> 
> Carry on.


I'm sure Matt is using pure back tension, (not) and seems to be able to shoot better than 99% of most archers.


----------



## Mahly

Here is the theory of firing by back tension as it was explained to me.
Note: this was explained back in the day of the uber mushy back wall.
When at anchor, with the release rotated close to vertical, increasing back tension rotates both parts of the arm at the same time (elbow is not to flex). This rotation rotates the arm so the release elbow lowers (a reason to have the forearm at least level with the arrow, if not pointing at the grip). Much like if your loop is too long, your elbow will be too low.
When doing this the wrist should not move, transferring the rotation to the head of the release, thus firing the shot.
I have gotten old bows to shoot that way (creep tuning is a must). It does work, it will fire a bow with enough give in the wall.
I don't think THAT is a "myth" as I have done it myself.
The only thing I agree with being a myth is the idea you MUST shoot that way even with modern equipment. There is tons of evidence to the contrary.
The idea of relaxing the hand transfers movement from the cams/string to the hand. The additional rotation is still the firing engine so to speak, but the movement will still come from your hand instead of the bow.
Still, it is obvious that is but one way to shoot a hinge effectively.

NOTE: there has been some editing, and some deleting,
If you don't like how your post was edited, don't be attacking people, or going off topic too far.
I've also edited some replies that had quoted an edited or deleted post.
Most just made sense, and/or eliminated useless arguing.

If you don't want me changing your posts, play nice! (This is NOT directed at just one or two members). Proceed at your own risk. Get too nasty, get an infraction and/or vacation. Final warning.


----------



## EPLC

Mahly said:


> Here is the theory of firing by back tension as it was explained to me.
> Note: this was explained back in the day of the uber mushy back wall.
> When at anchor, with the release rotated close to vertical, increasing back tension rotates both parts of the arm at the same time (elbow is not to flex). This rotation rotates the arm so the release elbow lowers (a reason to have the forearm at least level with the arrow, if not pointing at the grip). Much like if your loop is too long, your elbow will be too low.
> When doing this the wrist should not move, transferring the rotation to the head of the release, thus firing the shot.
> I have gotten old bows to shoot that way (creep tuning is a must). It does work, it will fire a bow with enough give in the wall.
> I don't think THAT is a "myth" as I have done it myself.
> The only thing I agree with being a myth is the idea you MUST shoot that way even with modern equipment. There is tons of evidence to the contrary.
> The idea of relaxing the hand transfers movement from the cams/string to the hand. The additional rotation is still the firing engine so to speak, but the movement will still come from your hand instead of the bow.
> Still, it is obvious that is but one way to shoot a hinge effectively.
> NOTE: there has been some editing, and some deleting,
> If you don't like how your post was edited, don't be attacking people, or going off topic too far.
> I've also edited some replies that had quoted an edited or deleted post.
> Most just made sense, and/or eliminated useless arguing.
> 
> If you don't want me changing your posts, play nice! (This is NOT directed at just one or two members). Proceed at your own risk. Get too nasty, get an infraction and/or vacation. Final warning.


I actually watched that one on an episode of "MYTHBUSTERS"  ... Seriously, that in red is the only real area of contention for me. While executing a valley bow with BT may be possible, or any bow for that matter, it has never been the only way to execute a hinge release. The people that have promoted it in this manner have done a great disservice to people trying to learn this sport... I shot again today using the dynamic tension/relaxing method and pounded the center of a 3 spot for about an hour.


----------



## EPLC

Padgett said:


> The myth isn't weather or not you can shoot with pure back tension, the myth that was always present was that if you are doing anything to help the hinge rotate that you are not only cheating but you are going to shoot poorly. Most all hinge shooters have had to suck it up mentally and feel like they are making a poor decision by the method that they have chosen other than pure back tension and here lies the problem. Not only have they internally had to mask confidence with a little cloud of doubt that what their method may be hurting them at that moment of truth but they also have had to hide their method from places like archery talk because even a mention of anything but pure back tension would result in a bash fest.
> 
> With levi's message that was 100% easy to understand and very clear to everyone that heard it, none of the pro shooters are doing it. If i'm not mistaken that is a 0% statement, its not like he said that only a few of them including himself have stumbled onto something cool and they are getting away with it. He didn't give it a 50% you can choose either because some of us are doing pure back tension and some of us are doing other methods. He pretty much from where I was sitting here in my nice leather walmart office chair was referring to all pro shooters.


 I agree. The issue is that many were telling us that they didn't use the hand to activate the hinge and we shouldn't either. If you used the hand you were "cheating"... I remember someone pointing out Braden moving his hand... definitely an OMG moment on AT. 



Padgett said:


> Eplc, I am going to remind you that many of the guys that were telling us that pure back tension was the only way were actually using hand manipulation. Why do I know this? Because I have my buddies watch me shoot during the season sometimes and I ask them to tell me if I am using back tension or yielding or squeeze and pull and they can't tell. I have to tell them what I am doing and more than likely most of the people that were proclaiming pure back tension were actually either knowingly doing it and just not fessing up or doing it and not realizing that they were actually yielding or squeezing some fingers.


What they "actually" did or didn't do isn't the issue, but then you already said that


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## Lazarus

Please think about how ludicrous this idea is;

If the idea of using "back tension" as a means of *firing* a release (without rotation) is actually a valid idea one would have to surmise that if you were holding, I don't know, say, 17 pounds that by pulling into the stops to say, 30 lbs your release would fire. Listen, if you are holding 17 you just pulled a bow back that peaked around 60 and the release did not fire. 

To those that buy the myth that probably just flew right over your head didn't it? 

I'm sorry, but this same principle applies to the "mushy wall" example. It isn't likely that you can pull straight back on a mushy wall bow and exceed the amount of pounds on the release that you just peaked at. Thus, pulling straight into a mushy wall does not fire the release. Unless of course somehow the pull causes rotation. And if that's the case, good luck with the repeat ability. 

This is just too simple isn't it? Why do we as archers have to try to complicate things with myths? 

There MUST be rotation on the hinge release to make it fire. This rotation takes place at the wrist/hand. Not the elbow or the back. If it does take place at the elbow/back it is not repeatable (provided you even get the release to fire.)


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## SonnyThomas

Just saying........

What one feels executing the shot, thinks and puts into words is the killer....Over analyzing doesn't help. We are discussing and no one here is really the "student" and yet, still trying to learn.

The Stansislawski Instructions;
"Many shooters are *mysti-it requires* a medical degree and a body chart to locate ambiguous muscle groups that must be flexed and pinched at just the right interval while poking at your release trigger."

And the missing it well seems...I copied the Stan Instructions with my computer, so no typing errors on my part. Where I copied I can't remember...

Griv's Instructions;
Many shooters are mysti*fied with the notion of “back tension.” For many shooters it is this mysterious feeling you get in your back when your shoulder blades are rotated, tucked, pulled, and squeezed into just the right contorted position that enables the elusive “perfect shot”. For others* it requires a medical degree and a body chart to locate ambiguous muscle groups that must be flexed and pinched at just the right interval while poking at your release trigger.

So Griv notes of "mysterious feeling." Griv; "I feel like it is not difficult to understand at all. I feel like people tend to make it harder than it has to be." And another; "another excerpt from my perpetually unfinished book that deals on the Tension subject."
Did he publish the book, change what he had on back tension or is it still a work in progress? Not meaning negative, but stands to reason as time goes by more is learned.

I didn't have a instructor per say. Ben; "I want you to shoot, but not shoot. Draw and just hold. I want you to feel and tell me everything you feel. Add back tension if you have to." I thought he told me he'd buy me a drink (soda) if I got it right. I worked at it and gave him what I felt/thought. He was happy, laughed and gave me a pat on the back....He didn't tell me, so I was right? > Well, that was a day that gave to working muscles and mental control (?). Okay, there was tension building, flowing up/feeling muscles draw more of the release side. Somewhere in there was keeping the release hand or fingers from moving so the release wouldn't fire. I did this again with one of Padgett's write ups and using my Stan MoreX Blackjack with safety cross pin (fires, but won't release the string). IF I relaxed my hand and proceeded with concentrating on back tension (not really adding) the release would fire. Magic or the relaxed release hand affected in some manner through constant back tension? Equalization of the fingers? Tension drawing the middle and ring finger more than the index finger? Can I set my releases different and get or cause a different effect and still maintain accuracy? Yes. Lazy maybe as I want it the easiest, muscle and brain wise. 

Today, like the past few days I gave all to hold, but relax as best I can. I just look hard (aim) and the arrow is on it's way. Why should I analyze/worry what's going on so long as I repeat it? 
Shooting spots is one thing, circle to stay in. Shooting something you can't see is another. Whatever I've been doing of late I must have being doing right. And I've a few bad days that make me wonder. Most all my target centers are shot to pieces. 30 and 35 yards and I was happy with the results. I was having so much fun I didn't realize I was working...near 40 degrees out and I found myself sweating..... 

Ben is in pretty bad shape or I'd bend his ear. Probably tell me I knew how and get on the wagon of other archery stuff. He was a Representative for Golden Eagle. He was last a Evaluator of College teachers. Ben was a shooter from way back. And how he got through college...First year. In this class and the teacher or Professor was a archery nut and damn good at it. His challenge; "Any one in my class that can beat me gets a free ride." This meaning you passed his course. Ben; "Young, I had some big testicles. I took him on and beat him." Ben went on; "I showed for class the next day and my Professor asks what I'm doing there as I had already passed his course. I never attended another class."
Ben also gave seminars, deer hunting, more towards turkey hunting and tracking when enough showed interest.
.
And I'll give that reading stuff throughout AT and this forum it seems I get screwed up...I've beat myself pretty good getting rid of some glitches picked up...
.
Top of center X ring and upper ASA 14 ring from 35 yards. Black target, a pair of center dime size center Xs from 20 yards. When you can't see you just have to let the tension out of you and just plain let the shot happen. You think, you're screwed.
Even the camera didn't pick up the dime size X rings and up close with the camera.


----------



## Rick!

Lazarus said:


> Please think about how ludicrous this idea is;
> 
> If the idea of using "back tension" as a means of *firing* a release (without rotation) is actually a valid idea one would have to surmise that if you were holding, I don't know, say, 17 pounds that by pulling into the stops to say, 30 lbs your release would fire. Listen, if you are holding 17 you just pulled a bow back that peaked around 60 and the release did not fire.
> 
> To those that buy the myth that probably just flew right over your head didn't it?
> 
> I'm sorry, but this same principle applies to the "mushy wall" example. It isn't likely that you can pull straight back on a mushy wall bow and exceed the amount of pounds on the release that you just peaked at. Thus, pulling straight into a mushy wall does not fire the release. Unless of course somehow the pull causes rotation. And if that's the case, good luck with the repeat ability.
> 
> This is just too simple isn't it? Why do we as archers have to try to complicate things with myths?
> 
> There MUST be rotation on the hinge release to make it fire. This rotation takes place at the wrist/hand. Not the elbow or the back. If it does take place at the elbow/back it is not repeatable (provided you even get the release to fire.)


Who put the definition of BT as a rearward linear motion? Everybody knows the release has to rotate. LW promotes the planar rotation of the draw elbow by using a few specific muscles located in close proximity to your back. So, according to your own interpretation of BT, you're right. Feel better now?

What mystifies me is that a pro who shoots some gold spots and a lot of foam critters says BT is dead and everyone jumps on board - akin to mob mentality, or as you guys like to throw around, Jonestown.

Keep doing what you do best Laz, which appears to be working for you (edited)


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## SonnyThomas

So my pictures didn't take.....Here.


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## SonnyThomas

Rick! said:


> What mystifies me is that a pro who shoots some gold spots and a lot of foam critters says BT is dead and everyone jumps on board - akin to mob mentality, or as you guys like to throw around, Jonestown.


Well, it isn't just "a Pro." Several are telling of other means to fire a hinge and a thumb release for that matter. And most telling of their method aren't slouches by a long shot. National and World Champion target shooters and Top of the heap 3D shooters. The other Thread, Levi Morgan, 8 times ASA Shooter of the Year. Saying he "shoots///a lot of foam critters doesn't quite get it. He does, but superbly....


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## unclejane

Padgett said:


> Eplc, I am going to remind you that many of the guys that were telling us that pure back tension was the only way were actually using hand manipulation. Why do I know this? Because I have my buddies watch me shoot during the season sometimes and I ask them to tell me if I am using back tension or yielding or squeeze and pull and they can't tell. I have to tell them what I am doing and more than likely most of the people that were proclaiming pure back tension were actually either knowingly doing it and just not fessing up or doing it and not realizing that they were actually yielding or squeezing some fingers.


This is sort of what I ended up with when I was trying a back-tension approach to getting my hinge to fire. I learned the concept of back-tension when shooting oly recurve anyway where such a thing is inapplicable and it's ultimately a square-peg-into-a-round hole type of problem from the beginning. Back tension is how you draw and hold the bow; rotating the release is how you fire a hinge. They're essentially orthogonal ideas, to me anyway. So I finally decided to abandon that idea and now just rotate the hinge LOL. That's where I'm at now - draw & hold with the back, rotate the hinge to initiate firing process.

In fact, the idea of "rotation" in the "back-end" is fatal to my shot. Whether or not that's what actually happens (and it actually does), if I have a *concept* of it I somehow, ironically, don't use back-tension as much and start engaging all the smaller supporting muscles in the arm, etc.

It was useful for me to try it, tho, since I at least ruled out a method that doesn't work for me. The idea of pull with the back to draw and hold is congruent with what I've always been taught as a basic bow technique and rotating the hinge body is basic to hinge technique. But the two don't go together in the way that is perhaps often thought...

LS


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## rn3

If you keep your anchor, I don't believe you can rotate your elbow far enough behind your head to make a hinge fire without rotating your wrist.


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## unclejane

rn3 said:


> If you keep your anchor, I don't believe you can rotate your elbow far enough behind your head to make a hinge fire without rotating your wrist.


Oh no, you can and I've done it. But it gives a truly horrible shot - its like Levi M. says in the video, you lose the alignment on the back end. Your hand is essentially forced into your face harder and harder. It does finally go off with a hefty rip against your chin and the arrow goes to the left past the bale into the wall. 

Don't ask why I know this in such incredible detail.

LS


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## rn3

unclejane said:


> Oh no, you can and I've done it. But it gives a truly horrible shot - its like Levi M. says in the video, you lose the alignment on the back end. Your hand is essentially forced into your face harder and harder. It does finally go off with a hefty rip against your chin and the arrow goes to the left past the bale into the wall.
> 
> Don't ask why I know this in such incredible detail.
> 
> LS


That's what I mean you can not maintain your anchor.


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## Lazarus

Rick! said:


> What mystifies me is that a pro who shoots some gold spots and a lot of foam critters says BT is dead and everyone jumps on board - akin to mob mentality, or as you guys like to throw around, Jonestown.
> 
> Keep doing what you do best Laz, which appears to be working for you (edited)


If you had been paying attention many of the people who actually shoot instead of write about it have been saying this for a long time. I will admit it was nice to see one of the best shooters in the world stand up and tell the truth about it somewhere besides behind the scenes. Seems those that still hold on to the belief that a hinge release can be effectively fired without rotation of the wrist/hand are the koolaid drinkers. But that's ok. It takes all kinds. Whatever floats your boat. :wink:

As for the latter, don't know what you said that was edited, don't really care that much. But I have a strong suspicion I know the outcome of a head to head, me using the way the guy that shoots "foam critters" shoots, you using the mythical way. Have a good day shooting.


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## ron w

with well executed back tension, the rotation does not come at the hand or wrist, the rotation happens at the pivot pin of the release and the entire hand, wrist, fore arm, and upper arm swing, radially, as a unit...like a single long lever, to produce the rotation at the pivot pin of the bale on the release, not at the hand or at the wrist.
that is how a hinge is designed to work and the reason the hinge is designed with the bale pivot, where it is.
it doesn't have to be done that way, and I never once said that it "must" be done that way, nor that it is the "only", way it can be done. I simply said that is the way it is done with what is considered, "traditionally pure rotational back tension". that does not make a "myth", because there are plenty of shooters who do it that way. 
that is a well known, accepted and recognized definition, that needs no effort to support, because of it's universal acknowledgement and recognition. all the arguments that are to the contrary, are simply wasted words, because all they do is attempt to "redefine" what is already well known and established, throughout the industry as the definition of "back tension" as used in a release execution. 
rater than try to re-define the process, perhaps it should be given a different definition, if it is not used that way.
the efforts are somewhat the same as someone trying to re-define what we all recognize as a "car". ....call it what you want,... if it fits the definition, it is a "car", if doesn't fit the definition, it's something else. there's no need to call it something else, if it is a "car", and no need or reason to call it a myth, if it is not a "car".


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## EPLC

What with all this contention over whether or not a release can or cannot be fired with pure pack tension isn't the real issue IMO... who cares? The real issue is whether or not a hinge release can be fired with a static hand/wrist as some have insisted. This is the crux of the problem. I don't care if you think it's back tension, dynamic tension, pulling straight back or standing on your head... if the ring and middle fingers are not providing more pressure than the index finger a hinge release can not and will not rotate and therefore cannot fire. This can be done by applying the pressure with those two fingers or by relaxing the index and/or thumb if using the thumb peg. For those who coined the phrase "cheating the hinge" and those who continue promoting this myth... you are providing a great disservice to those trying to advance their skills in this sport.


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## TNMAN

Good shot of Jesse working release on live feed Lancaster right now.


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## erdman41

Can a hinge be fired with a static hand yes. If the bow has quite a bit of give on the back end. Put a d-loop on a recurve and try it. If the hinge is set right it will fire with a static hand.

Now today we don't have mushy back walls. I believe this is what helps guys hold steadier today as to have more push/pull tension during the shot. So like others have said the give is now in the hand since there isn't any in the bow.

Now can a static hand back tension execution be accurate? I don't think so with today's bows. With the older bows probably but the average scores weren't the same either. Was that because of the bows or the way they were using the hinges I don't know.


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## EPLC

erdman41 said:


> Can a hinge be fired with a static hand yes. If the bow has quite a bit of give on the back end. Put a d-loop on a recurve and try it. If the hinge is set right it will fire with a static hand.
> 
> Now today we don't have mushy back walls. I believe this is what helps guys hold steadier today as to have more push/pull tension during the shot. So like others have said the give is now in the hand since there isn't any in the bow.
> 
> Now can a static hand back tension execution be accurate? I don't think so with today's bows. With the older bows probably but the average scores weren't the same either. Was that because of the bows or the way they were using the hinges I don't know.


We'll just have to disagree on this one, at least your first sentence. A static hand with even pressure on the index, middle & ring fingers will produce "NO" rotation and I don't care if you hook it to a tank. A static hand can be used to draw the bow so why doesn't it go off?. It doesn't go off because a hinge needs to rotate to go off. A static hand, or more pressure on the index is what prevents it from going off. You could continue this static motion until the limbs break and the release still won't go off.


----------



## erdman41

EPLC said:


> We'll just have to disagree on this one, at least your first sentence. A static hand with even pressure on the index, middle & ring fingers will produce "NO" rotation and I don't care if you hook it to a tank. A static hand can be used to draw the bow. You could continue this static motion until the limbs break and the release won't go off.


Sure if you pull straight back. 

But if your elbow moves down and back it will rotate with a static hand and fire. Today's bows don't allow that movement to happen though.


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## EPLC

erdman41 said:


> Sure if you pull straight back.
> 
> But if your elbow moves down and back it will rotate with a static hand and fire. Today's bows don't allow that movement to happen though.


I hear what you are saying, and on paper it sounds reasonable... but then so do a lot of things that are not actually fact. In reality I'm not as sure as you are that some additional movement of the wrist or fingers would not be required. But whether it can or can not physically be done, I think we are in agreement that it is certainly bad advise to give anyone trying to learn to shoot a hinge using todays equipment.


----------



## erdman41

EPLC said:


> I hear what you are saying, and on paper it sounds reasonable... but then so do a lot of things that are not actually fact. In reality I'm not as sure as you are that some additional movement of the wrist or fingers would not be required. But whether it can or can not physically be done, it is certainly bad advise to give anyone trying to learn to shoot a hinge using todays equipment.


I have done it on my old Hoyt Ultra-Tec with spirals with the cable stop missing. So this isn't just on paper. I didn't know the stop fell out and this was a few years a go when I was still trying to do the Larry Wise method. I thought something had really clicked cause my hinge was firing easily and consistently. Then realized it was because of the mushy wall. 

I even toyed with the idea of just shooting the bow that way. Problem was my "float" opened up some. I still shot ok but not ultimately as good as I wanted to. I couldn't get enough push pull to steady it up.

I do agree it is not good advice with todays bows. For beginners it might work out to put a d-loop on a recurve and shoot a hinge just so they can get the feel for which muscles they should be holding the bow with.


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## EPLC

Ok, let's say it can be done just for the sake of this discussion. With a static hand/wrist to produce the required rotation, the elbow would have to move in a rotational direction away from parallel with the arrow/bow arm. This would create alignment issues that can not be a good thing as far as accuracy goes. This was the main problem I had with trying to be "politically correct" in firing a hinge. As I applied this rotational movement of the elbow my sight would be pulled off target. This in turn would create a stop and go action in my rotation. While this was going on there would be a constant battle between my aiming and my release trying to force my pin back to center. This is the first time in my 18 years of shooting (I started late) that I feel comfortable using hand manipulation to fire my hinge... and coincidently I've been shooting much better as a result.


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## EPLC

ron w said:


> ... it doesn't have to be done that way, and I never once said that it "must" be done that way, nor that it is the "only", way it can be done..."


Actually, I have to take the quote below as a tad more than "never"... 



ron w said:


> "squeeze and pull, is entirely wrong in respect to using a hinge with the standard engine being back tension.
> the "squeezing" is an entirely, consciously regulated muscle action, that does exactly opposite what a hinge and back tension, is supposed to do. it is precisely the definition of "cheating an hinge off". it is exactly contrary to the entire reason hinges were developed to be fired with back tension.
> I challenge anyone here to prove me wrong and I will gladly participate in a long discussion, revealing the reason why.


I believe your challenge has been met quite successfully with tons of information posted here in recent weeks.


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## erdman41

EPLC said:


> Ok, let's say it can be done just for the sake of this discussion. With a static hand/wrist to produce the required rotation, the elbow would have to move in a rotational direction away from parallel with the arrow/bow arm. This would create alignment issues that can not be a good thing as far as accuracy goes. This was the main problem I had with trying to be "politically correct" in firing a hinge. As I applied this rotational movement of the elbow my sight would be pulled off target. This in turn would create a stop and go action in my rotation. While this was going on there would be a constant battle between my aiming and my release trying to force my pin back to center. This is the first time in my 18 years of shooting (I started late) that I feel comfortable using hand manipulation to fire my hinge... and coincidently I've been shooting much better as a result.


It's not like it takes a ton of movement. How big is the ledge on a click? Just takes give on the back wall which isn't around anymore.


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## EPLC

erdman41 said:


> It's not like it takes a ton of movement. How big is the ledge on a click? Just takes give on the back wall which isn't around anymore.


It's not really a big issue with me as to whether or not it can actually be done. The main point I was making was that it's not good advice... the debate whether it can or cannot be done just serves to cloud the real issue... which is this "cheating the hinge" crap.


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## erdman41

EPLC said:


> It's not really a big issue with me as to whether or not it can actually be done. The main point I was making was that it's not good advice... the debate whether it can or cannot be done just serves to cloud the real issue... which is this "cheating the hinge" crap.


Fair enough. I wasted enough arrows trying to do the "proper" back tension way too.


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## EPLC

erdman41 said:


> Fair enough. I wasted enough arrows trying to do the "proper" back tension way too.


We are on the same page


----------



## unclejane

erdman41 said:


> Sure if you pull straight back.
> 
> But if your elbow moves down and back it will rotate with a static hand and fire. Today's bows don't allow that movement to happen though.


I can confirm that that still gives a lousy shot even with a mushy bow from yesteryear LOL. My Hoyt Tribute is basically a (magnificently) repackaged old wheel bow from the late 70's; even with BCY X strings on it, it's just like my old Pro Vantage was (may it R.I.P.) with a back wall that goes on for 12 miles. If you rely on elbow movement only on it to fire a hinge, the arrow goes right smartly off to the left into the next target bale. Again, I know that with such in-depth scintillating detail for reasons I will not admit no way, no how. LOL. 

I've found I have to shoot it the same as my Supra Max, which has a much more modern harder back wall - back tension to draw/hold, some method of rotating the release with the draw fingers. 

LS


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## SonnyThomas

EPLC said:


> For those who coined the phrase "cheating the hinge" and those who continue promoting this myth... you are providing a great disservice to those trying to advance their skills in this sport.


Said "cheating the hinge" came long, long ago. People didn't understand the meaning of firing a hinge before the Stan/Griv write up and has continued after. 

And then Larry Wise's article still floats around;
From “Selling Back Tension Release Aids,” by Larry Wise, ArrowTrade Magazine, March 2004
Begin learning the release with a training aid, not a bow.
Set the release timing to heavy so your shooter has to work hard to activate the release.
Use a rope loop with them to be sure they have back tension that launches the loop several feet out
of their hand.
Check for wrist or finger movement, there should be none with back tension. The rhomboid
muscles in your back are the workers in this exercise.
All fingers should be held with equal tightness on the release and not relaxed."


----------



## unclejane

SonnyThomas said:


> Said "cheating the hinge" came long, long ago. People didn't understand the meaning of firing a hinge before the Stan/Griv write up and has continued after.
> 
> And then Larry Wise's article still floats around;
> From “Selling Back Tension Release Aids,” by Larry Wise, ArrowTrade Magazine, March 2004
> Begin learning the release with a training aid, not a bow.
> Set the release timing to heavy so your shooter has to work hard to activate the release.
> Use a rope loop with them to be sure they have back tension that launches the loop several feet out
> of their hand.
> Check for wrist or finger movement, there should be none with back tension. The rhomboid
> muscles in your back are the workers in this exercise.
> All fingers should be held with equal tightness on the release and not relaxed."


hrm. This may sound condescending, and certainly isn't meant that way, but is it possible the writers weren't actually aware that they were rotating the hinge by some other means? Eg. Shawn's "yield" or "scissors" methods, perhaps?

Obviously, at my current beginner stage it's hard for me to honestly criticize any technique, but for sure when I try to do pure back tension, the results are definitely not repeatable. Well, they're repeatably horrible, anyway... OTOH, if I do it more along the lines I learned about back tension from recurve, I can come up with a repeatable technique....
So I dunno, just tossing that out there?

LS


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## Rick!

unclejane said:


> hrm. This may sound condescending, and certainly isn't meant that way, but is it possible the writers weren't actually aware that they were rotating the hinge by some other means? Eg. Shawn's "yield" or "scissors" methods, perhaps?
> 
> Obviously, at my current beginner stage it's hard for me to honestly criticize any technique, but for sure when I try to do pure back tension, the results are definitely not repeatable. Well, they're repeatably horrible, anyway... OTOH, if I do it more along the lines I learned about back tension from recurve, I can come up with a repeatable technique....
> So I dunno, just tossing that out there?
> 
> LS


Mahly may edit this post like he edited my other one but here goes.

Go buy Core Archery and let us know what you just learned and what he accomplished with his inconsistent method of a shot break. Pages 56 and 58 and then 92 has got data to back it up. 

I played with the ring finger squeeze today and it would take a huge amount of arrows for me to get comfortable with it. Where it does work is on my wife's bow with 6lbs holding weight. I'll stick with what I've got and when I plateau, I'll make a planned change. 

BTW, unclejane, a Supra Max with ME cams, stock stops and 75% letoff does not have a hard back wall. And contrary to other myths, I could shoot my old Pearsons with dual limb stops with (gasp) a hinge and BT.


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## unclejane

Rick! said:


> Mahly may edit this post like he edited my other one but here goes.
> 
> Go buy Core Archery and let us know what you just learned and what he accomplished with his inconsistent method of a shot break. Pages 56 and 58 and then 92 has got data to back it up.
> 
> I played with the ring finger squeeze today and it would take a huge amount of arrows for me to get comfortable with it. Where it does work is on my wife's bow with 6lbs holding weight. I'll stick with what I've got and when I plateau, I'll make a planned change.
> 
> BTW, unclejane, a Supra Max with ME cams, stock stops and 75% letoff does not have a hard back wall. And contrary to other myths, I could shoot my old Pearsons with dual limb stops with (gasp) a hinge and BT.


True, it's not as hard as many. It's kind of a medium back wall, I guess you'd say. But the idea is compared to my wheel bow, of course, it's like concrete LOL. As for the topic of firing a hinge, I'll just reiterate that the pure back tension method failed for me. That doesn't mean failed period of course, just that I prefer back tension only as a means of drawing/holding. To fire the hinge, I simply rotate it while maintaining back tension lightly against the wall and that seems to work well for me.

LS


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## Tiroarco

SonnyThomas said:


> Here is Stanislawski's description of years past......
> 
> *Back Tension Explained*
> The word back tension is used often when describing shot execution. Many shooters are mysti-it requires a medical degree and a body chart to locate ambiguous muscle groups that must be flexed and pinched at just the right interval while poking at your release trigger. Ultimately, it is a confusing distraction that takes our mind off aiming, and aiming is the most important task that must be completed without distraction to complete the perfect shot. Without perfect aim, feel. We refer to it as dynamic tension. Dynamic Tension is set up at the beginning of the draw and it continues through the release of the arrow. We feel that it is second only to aiming as the key fundamental part of shooting form that generates accuracy and consistency. The feel that you get with Dynamic Tension is the constant rearward pressure against the bow while you aim.
> 
> *What is Dynamic Tension?*
> Dynamic Tension is a simple technique. You need to feel a balance between the solid bow arm and the pulling pressure of the release hand. The feeling should be like stretching a band be-tween your bow hand and your release hand. This stretch increases as you commit to the shot.
> Most pro shooters set up their dynamic tension when they raise the bow to the target. The muscles that you use to draw the bow are the very same muscles that you use to aim the bow, and the back muscles will give you the most stability. As you reach full draw you should pull the bow into the stops and continue to apply mild pressure as you align your peep with the scope and the dot with the X. Once everything is centered and anchored in the center of the target, you will then commit to the shot. Slightly increase the tension against the bow. Begin relaxing the hand through the shot (we will explain relaxing through the shot a little later.) Dynamic Tension reduces the amount of muscle groups involved in the shot. This will
> diminish muscle tremors that can cause sudden misses, quick shots, and general unsteadiness.
> 
> *Activating the Release by Relaxing Through the Shot*
> Whether you are using a triggerless Stan or one of our models that are trigger activated, the technique is the same with only minor adjustments. The art of activating the release is pretty basic. Essentially what should happen is as you pull against the bow and build dynamic tension between you and the bow, you will allow your index and middle finger to yield or soften against your pulling pressure. If you are shooting a Triggerless Stan, that yield of pressure causes the release to rotate just enough to cause it to fire giving you a complete surprise re-lease. If you are shooting a Thumb button the you will start with a heavier than normal trigger tension. Wrap your thumb or finger over the trigger and apply a tiny amount of pressure to it. As you pull and allow your index finger to yield to the pressure, the tension transfers to the button or trigger. This slight transfer of pressure as you relax your hand through the shot will cause a nice smooth surprise release. Ultimately you are striving for a surprise release. You do not want to be concerned when it is going to fire.
> 
> A perfect shot would seem something like this: You draw the bow and squeeze into the stops. You align the peep and scope and bring the target into view. You will give it a half a beat to begin its normal motion in the center of the target (depending on experience this will be a little wobbly or very steady. Practice and conditioning will improve your hold over time.) Your sight is as steady as it ever gets and you commit to the shot. Allow your Dynamic tension to build on your release fingers through pulling into the stops. The tip of your elbow is in perfect line with the dot in your scope and it is pulling straight away. To activate the shot your index finger sof-tens on the release and allows the handle to pivot slightly (there is very little perceivable mo-tion here, but you can feel it) and POOF! The shot is released. You hold the form for about 3 beats for follow through and you are ready to reset. You have just shot a perfect arrow. You can adjust the speed of your release to get the proper feel and timing.
> 
> *Transferring the Feel to Your Bow*
> As you get used to the feel of Dynamic Tension and you get used to yielding through the re-lease to activate the shot, your exercise with the shooting loop will be important. It will help you memorize the feel and commit it to muscle memory. The more automatic these motions are before you go to the bow, the more consistent your shot sequence will be. An easy way to transfer the feel to your bow is to shoot at a very close range without a target. When shooting the blank bale, it is important that you do not aim at anything, and resist the temptation to aim at your previous arrow. The point of this exercise is to acquaint yourself with the feel of shoot-
> ing with your new release without the extra distraction of aiming. Remember, these exercises can be boring and it is tempting to skip forward and begin shooting as normal, but the more time you spend here developing a broad foundation through these exercises; the more accurate you will be in the long run. Spend enough time at this stage to get your shot execution as nor-mal and comfortable as you can. Compare the feel to the shooting string to be sure that you have it down.
> 
> *Incorporating the Feel Into Your Full Shot Routine*
> The final step is to learn to aim and commit shot execution to muscle memory and allow it to happen naturally. For many shooters, sight movement and release problems are correlated, so learning to accept sight movement and continue with great shot execution is important. One of the best ways to accomplish this is to start off shooting targets at a very close range. Set up a target and shoot a few well aimed shots at 5 yards. Be mindful of the release and be sure that the feel and speed feels the same as it does with your string and the bow on the blank bale. Once you are comfortable with this, you can step back to ten yards. If you really want to get the full use of this exercise you can shoot full games on your favorite target to build confidence and get used to the feel of the automatic release while your sight moves in the center of the target. When you feel like you have it down and your shot execution feels great, you can step back to 15 yards and repeat. Slowly stepping back and gradually getting used to accepting sight movement will help your shot execution remain con-sistent. As you get better and become a stronger archer, your sight movement will get smaller and smaller and your average will rise along with your improve-ments. Following these simple steps to acquaint yourself with your new Stan release and its function will take you a long way towards higher scores and overall consistency."


Once in a while comes along a great post from a great poster. A post that clearly explains what has mystified others and perhaps outlines what you have been doing right/wrong. 
Nice work Sonny! Appreciate your time and commitment it takes to post something like this. If only we had more like this!


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## EPLC

mgnasi said:


> Once in a while comes along a great post from a great poster. A post that clearly explains what has mystified others and perhaps outlines what you have been doing right/wrong.
> Nice work Sonny! Appreciate your time and commitment it takes to post something like this. If only we had more like this!


Yes, Sonny posted this, and while not taking away from that fact, the words, with 99% certainlty belong to GRIV. In my response to the original post by Sonny you'll find a link to a 2004 GRIV post containing much of what was written for STAN.


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## SonnyThomas

Well, what I was trying to point out was the disagreement over back tension will continue and "cheating a hinge" will continue. I don't have the book, Core Archery, so has Larry changed his explanation?


The Stan/Griv write up notes; "you will allow your index and middle finger to yield or soften against your pulling pressure. If you are shooting a Triggerless Stan, that yield of pressure causes the release to rotate just enough to cause it to fire giving you a complete surprise re-lease. and; To activate the shot your index finger sof-tens on the release and allows the handle to pivot slightly (there is very little perceivable mo-tion here, but you can feel it) and POOF!"
So March of 2004 Griv, George Ryals 

And then July of 2004, Larry Wise;
"Check for wrist or finger movement, there should be none with back tension. The rhomboid
muscles in your back are the workers in this exercise.
All fingers should be held with equal tightness on the release and not relaxed."

So two different...explanations? 

Dumb me has noted many times to use General Archery Information and now I use it to find both Griv and Larry.

http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=489770
http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=453861
http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=463232
and a link in case
http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/attachment.php?attachmentid=262930&d=1182023216

My copy came neither of these sources. So long ago and I think I copied it from what looked like a heading of Stanislawski. As I pointed out, my copy has "Following these simple steps to acquaint yourself with *your new Stan release*"


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## BK Artworks

Is anyone else's head spinning from all of this??? I shoot mine how I shoot it and it works for me and that's how I will continue to shoot it. Thanks and have a good day!!


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## southgaboy

ron w said:


> with well executed back tension, the rotation does not come at the hand or wrist, the rotation happens at the pivot pin of the release and the entire hand, wrist, fore arm, and upper arm swing, radially, as a unit...like a single long lever, to produce the rotation at the pivot pin of the bale on the release, not at the hand or at the wrist.
> that is how a hinge is designed to work and the reason the hinge is designed with the bale pivot, where it is.
> it doesn't have to be done that way, and I never once said that it "must" be done that way, nor that it is the "only", way it can be done. I simply said that is the way it is done with what is considered, "traditionally pure rotational back tension". that does not make a "myth", because there are plenty of shooters who do it that way.
> that is a well known, accepted and recognized definition, that needs no effort to support, because of it's universal acknowledgement and recognition. all the arguments that are to the contrary, are simply wasted words, because all they do is attempt to "redefine" what is already well known and established, throughout the industry as the definition of "back tension" as used in a release execution.
> rater than try to re-define the process, perhaps it should be given a different definition, if it is not used that way.
> the efforts are somewhat the same as someone trying to re-define what we all recognize as a "car". ....call it what you want,... if it fits the definition, it is a "car", if doesn't fit the definition, it's something else. there's no need to call it something else, if it is a "car", and no need or reason to call it a myth, if it is not a "car".


^^^ best explanation of a hinge!!


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## Lazarus

southgaboy said:


> ^^^ best explanation of a hinge!!


Opinions vary. :wink: 

Kind of depends on if you are a shooter or a writer.


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## SonnyThomas

BK Artworks said:


> Is anyone else's head spinning from all of this??? I shoot mine how I shoot it and it works for me and that's how I will continue to shoot it. Thanks and have a good day!!


:thumbs_up


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## ron w

lazarus, pleae explain to us your "varied opinion" of how a hinge works. in my forty years of using a hinge, I have discovered that, if the hinge does not rotate ...at the bail pin...the hinge will not fire.


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## SonnyThomas

ron w said:


> lazarus, pleae explain to us your "varied opinion" of how a hinge works. in my forty years of using a hinge, I have discovered that, if the hinge does not rotate ...at the bail pin...the hinge will not fire.


ron, go back and read the links I posted. Larry Wise, Jim Bath and Griv (George Ryals). So two are advocating back tension and one explaining softening the index finger. 

And I've tried the training loop thing. BS! Instructions need put forth. Yep, I could get the release to fire, send the train loop across a room, but my release shoulder got to hurting. Enough pain and I quit....There needs to be some give, rubber handled, rubber tubing, something. I'd rather use a bow and my Stan Blackjack with cross pin than use a training loop again.


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## ron w

well, actually no, there doesn't need to be some "give". 
once you're on the stops, there's no reason to pull any harder. the only reason people think there needs to be some give is because they've been brainwashed by the" "keep pulling through the shot", or the "try to rip the bow apart" frame of mind. 
once you're on the stops, there's no benefit in increasing the amount of pressure against them. meet the stops, pull with enough pressure to stay on them, and simply run your execution at that consistent level of pull, neither increasing or decreasing the pull as the execution proceeds.
the problem is that there seems to be an almost universal misconception that one must try to rip the release off the string, resulting in a fairly wild expansion at the break, to be "doing it right". back tension with a hinge is exactly opposite of this idea. properly done, the break of the shot should be a fairly smooth and non-violent, "disconnection" of the release and string. the whole process is actually designed to be not upsetting to the flow of the shot's progress, for the purpose of not upsetting the alignment of the shot as it breaks. the harder you are pulling into the stops, the more violent that expansion will be, and it doesn't need to be violent at all. 
I believe this "try to rip the bow apart" stems from the popular trend of being over-bowed and the fact that it is established knowledge that you can pull as hard as you want to once on the stops, with no detriment to the shot,....but frankly, that latter part,... I don't think, is necessarily true. with the reduction of draw weight from a compound, it is possible to beat, or at least influence the reaction to the shot's breaking, by over pulling into the stops. the more violently you pull, the more inconsistent the expansion on follow through will be and a consistent follow through is just as essential a part of the shot execution, as what goes on before it.
as for training loops, I've used them and so have thousands of other guys, to learn the rotation of back tension,... and the they work fine !. the key to getting them to work for you, is to adjust their length so that it is exactly the same as the bow's draw length, that you shoot. in that condition, there is no difference in the anatomical process that goes on, when you execution the imaginary shot with the training loop, vs. the real thing. I think many guys ignore these important details, in trying to learn back tension.


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## Lazarus

ron w said:


> lazarus, pleae explain to us your "varied opinion" of how a hinge works. in my forty years of using a hinge, I have discovered that, if the hinge does not rotate ...at the bail pin...the hinge will not fire.



There's no need for the discussion about how a hinge works. This is the intermediate/advanced forum, you should take your elementary questions to "General." This topic is about *release execution.* The fact is; you have to rotate the hinge in some manner in order for it to fire. The fact is; the best way to do so is to rotate your hand in some manner, with the most accepted method for accuracy being to "relax through the shot." And finally, the fact is; if you induce movement of the entire draw arm though additional "back tension" or by pulling down and back accuracy likely suffers. 

That about sums it up.


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## ron w

gee, if you can't explain how a hinge works, how can you discuss the "release execution" ?. I believe I said, the hinge has to rotate", didn't I ?. in an advanced forum, I would think that much knowledge is "understood".


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## SonnyThomas

ron, I was going by how Doug Springer (Stanislawski) instructed and the training aid flying as Doug said. That was the problem, instructions not there or I didn't hear or understand. 

Still, with a hinge and my ProElite and Martins I managed some good shooting. I used my Stanislawski Deuce (two finger hinge) a lot when doing testing of arrows and vanes at the shop. I just held to the wall and it went off sweet and if I had to I can let down, so it isn't set all that hot. I've still have it, got it back, and it's pretty much the same with my limb dual stops. Still, no confidence, just use it in 3D for "chip shots."

For the most part, Larry and Griv, as long as those two write up exist there's going to be arguments. I'm going to "haul back and shoot."


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## EPLC

southgaboy said:


> ^^^ best explanation of a hinge!!


I think not. Although I will agree that it may be one of the finest examples _describing old school back tension to fire one_, not the solution. 

After reading/hearing contradictory statements from Alistair Whittingham, Jesse Broadwater, George Ryals IV, Levi Mogran and a host of other world class shooters, I have to assume that there is at least the possibility of another effective solution to shooting a hinge. And… because of the amount of evidence presented I can also safely assume that this method may actually be a better way. 

That said; I can assure you that the effort I personally wasted in removing hand movement from my execution is probably the single worst instruction that has provided negative progress in my performance. Now, thanks to this discussion, now that I’ve gotten over this nonsense, I have a shot that is accurate, repeatable and understandable

_OLD SCHOOL BACK TENSION_: 

All fingers should be held with equal tightness on the release and not relaxed. ~ Larry Wise

with well executed back tension, the rotation does not come at the hand or wrist, the rotation happens at the pivot pin of the release and the entire hand, wrist, fore arm, and upper arm swing, radially, as a unit... ~ ron w


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## cbrunson

Regardless of how you can or "should" manipulate a hinge to get it to fire, I will put all of my eggs in one basket. The one where you pull or hold (static) straight back and focus on a controlled execution. That will provide the least amount of disturbance to the front end. It would work the same for any type of release.


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## Mahly

Lazarus said:


> ...The fact is; you have to rotate the hinge in some manner in order for it to fire...





ron w said:


> gee, if you can't explain how a hinge works, how can you discuss the "release execution" ?...


It would appear as though he did describe how a hinge works.

What is missing, in some of the descriptions is direction. With "proper back tension" will the hinge fire if it is completely vertical? Will it fire if it is completely horizontal? What direction would the elbow be moving while doing this rotation?


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## EPLC

Mahly said:


> It would appear as though he did describe how a hinge works.
> 
> What is missing, in some of the descriptions is direction. With "proper back tension" will the hinge fire if it is completely vertical? Will it fire if it is completely horizontal? What direction would the elbow be moving while doing this rotation?


Well, if it isn't moving straight back I believe it would create an alignment issue that would pull the dot off center, or at least that has been my experience (and lots of it). Of course pulling straight back would make a static hand/hinge combination a standoff, would it not? (Also much experience) So, with a static hand/wrist you are faced with either a rotational alignment issue, or a hinge won't go off issue (again, much experience). Solution: move the hand (building a new experience base).


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## Mahly

And that is where I think we need to be defining this rotational movement.
It elbow moving in a horizontal plane? or a vertical plane?

I know which direction _I_ was taught the elbow should be "moving", but I don't want to influence others description or opinions on it.

Can the hinge fire completely horizontal? Can it be fired completely vertical? The way I was taught, you can't do both....without at least some hand movement.


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## ron w

traditionally, and if I recall, Stanislowski's instructions make some reference to the detail that it should be held in a "very close to horizontal" position. at least, I remember it being taught that way back in the day. anecdotally,... the closer it is to horizontal,... the more efficiently rotation from rhomboid tension, is transferred to the body of the release, to affect the rotation. 
anecdotally as well..., the horizontal hold has given to a trend of holding the release around 40 degrees from the horizontal. close enough to horizontal, to get decent rotation and still be a bit more comfortable as far as getting the hook close to the face for good alignment. the typical, "valley between first and second knuckle on the crest of the jaw bone", anchor, which is pretty universal, these days. 
as you move from about this angle towards fully vertical, the rotation looses efficient transfer and the path the elbow must take, changes from horizontal to vertical, to transfer rotation to the release, without hand movement. this trend of angular anchor position, is responsible for the more modern description of the elbow's swing being described as "in and down". the "down" element of this description, being added because of the trend to hold the release at the angle , instead of relatively horizontal. depending on the severity of this angle towards vertical, the amount of down swing by the elbow, has to be discovered on a personal basis.
in the case of using finger relaxation or wrist rotation to induce release rotation, the angle held, is of little consequence to the rotation needed. if you use these methods, rotation can be achieved at any angle used.
one aspect of the difference between these two methods, is that with finger relaxation or wrist rotation, good consistency, becomes a matter of conscious regulation, where in the horizontal or close to horizontal condition of anchor, consistency is a product of the direction of elbow swing, which, when properly developed, is controlled by subconscious process and is much more conducive to consistent effect on the shot, as a whole.
this is all pretty fundamental content, as far the anatomical and dynamic process of back tension, when using a hinge. I would think in an "advanced forum", the content of these issues would be pretty much understood and not in need of detailed discussion. ....maybe i'm wrong....maybe I expect, or assume too much.


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## Mahly

And that is where assuming gets us in trouble.
How many have struggled with shooting a hinge simply because they hold it much closer to vertical?
How many are watching "pros" to learn how they do it and see them holding the release nearly vertical?
If that sounds boarder line silly, why are there hinges with heads that can be rotated to reduce torque from twisting the hinge to a more vertical position?


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## EPLC

Mahly said:


> And that is where assuming gets us in trouble.
> How many have struggled with shooting a hinge simply because they hold it much closer to vertical?
> How many are watching "pros" to learn how they do it and see them holding the release nearly vertical?
> If that sounds boarder line silly, why are there hinges with heads that can be rotated to reduce torque from twisting the hinge to a more vertical position?


Granted, a horizontal hinge may have a better chance of being fired "old school" but what's the point? If tons of posted evidence pointing out that this "old school" methodology may not be the most effective method to shoot a hinge, then why are we continuing to promote this method? Which brings up another question: "How many have struggled shooting a hinge simply because they were told they couldn't move their hand"?

While "old school" methodology may still work for some, the current common wisdom no longer supports this method as it has evolved in a different direction. I'm done with the "does or doesn't it work" argument as I really don't care. What I do care about is the method that works for me and those that don't. The method that works for me requires some hand manipulation. The one that doesn't requires a static hand/wrist.


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## Padgett

I had a interesting day yesterday because it was my first 3d shoot of the year and I really struggled to see the 12 ring through my lens and the sun was in our eyes on one side of the course and I couldn't see anything. So basically I shot with 100% of my focus on where is the freaking spot that I want to shoot.

Well, I shot really good executions of the shot but there was one shot that really stood out from the rest because it was a easy shot where I could see the 12 ring at about 24 yards and I was floating really solid right in the center of it but my shot didn't fire and instead of just letting down I went ahead and started putting more pressure on the wall and it totally pulled my pin off the 12 ring and I missed it. This really was the only shot out of 40 shots that I took that I was disappointed in because I know better than to do that but it was a great reminder of how running a very smooth shot really makes for the most consistent shooting.

By the way EPLC, I do pull straight back into the wall and even pulling straight back will pull the pin off the wall when you do stupid things like freeze up or pause and start the shot. To me the only way to really shoot very well from shot to shot is to start the engine and run it smooth.


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## Mahly

Suppose the point is, that if holding the release more horizontal makes it easier to fire the hinge using "old school" back tension, it may still be a very viable method of shooting.
While it doesn't work for you, it may well work for someone else.
Just as "old school" shooters may find THAT technique works best for them, it might not work for someone else.

I brought up the horizontal/vertical thing as I remember it as I remembered back when I first got a hinge. NO ONE said anything about it being held horizontally. The instructions didn't mention it, the people I was getting advice from didn't talk about it. SO I started holding it vertically. Obviously, held that way, flexing the rhomboids didn't get the desired results.

I personally, prefer to keep everything working in one plane, so I use "back tension" only to hold, not to fire. I have been using one of Padgett's engines lately, and found that works very well for me.
At the same time, I KNOW I can fire a release with "old school back tension", but it seems to mess with my float more. Larry doesn't seem to have that issue.

In the end, I see a couple methods of firing a release. which one works best for you depends on who you are, and who is coaching you.

I would think EPLC would not get me the results I want by trying to teach me "old school back tension" as a firing engine. 
I would think Ron W would not get me the results I want by trying to teach me to manipulate the hinge.

Doing it the hard way (not having any coach) takes longer, but I have found what works best for me (or at least this latest engine works best of all the engines I have tried). I MIGHT have done "old school" better with someone like Ron W coaching me....maybe not. But where I am at now, I'm happy, and improving.

It's kind of like martial artists debating what style is best. Many systems have been proven to work. The 2 defining things are, what works best for YOU, and what your coach (mentor, friend at the range) trying to teach you. If they don't match, your gonna struggle till you find both pieces of the puzzle.

P.S. Some of those martial arts guys get CRAZY when asked what system is best and why LOL!


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## EPLC

Padgett said:


> I had a interesting day yesterday because it was my first 3d shoot of the year and I really struggled to see the 12 ring through my lens and the sun was in our eyes on one side of the course and I couldn't see anything. So basically I shot with 100% of my focus on where is the freaking spot that I want to shoot.
> 
> Well, I shot really good executions of the shot but there was one shot that really stood out from the rest because it was a easy shot where I could see the 12 ring at about 24 yards and I was floating really solid right in the center of it but my shot didn't fire and instead of just letting down I went ahead and started putting more pressure on the wall and it totally pulled my pin off the 12 ring and I missed it. This really was the only shot out of 40 shots that I took that I was disappointed in because I know better than to do that but it was a great reminder of how running a very smooth shot really makes for the most consistent shooting.
> 
> By the way EPLC, I do pull straight back into the wall and even pulling straight back will pull the pin off the wall when you do stupid things like freeze up or pause and start the shot. To me the only way to really shoot very well from shot to shot is to start the engine and run it smooth.


I submit that stupid things such as the ones you mentioned may result in a pull that "isn't" quite straight back... which in turn would pull the pin off center. And yes, the smoother the engine, the smoother the result.


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## SonnyThomas

Mahly said:


> I would think EPLC would not get me the results I want by trying to teach me "old school back tension" as a firing engine.
> I would think Ron W would not get me the results I want by trying to teach me to manipulate the hinge.


Backwards, I believe. ron, old. EPLC, other means.

See no one wants to say who is right or wrong of what I have... No problem. Do it your way, perfect it and you'll do well....


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## jwilson48

Wow fun thread to read....what I don't understand is why most people clutch onto their belief of who or what is right and that is the end all of truth. Padgett has some great info on his website that has helped me tremendously starting out. That doesn't mean I'm doing it right or wrong but I've found a way that is working for me. Who cares if somebody else found a different way that works for them? Just like fishing last February. Logic said crappie would be in deep water in channel or bluff ledges. I caught my limit in 6ft of water over a flooded field 1 ft from the top in less than an hour. Sometimes you just have to find what gives you the best results and have the confidence in yourself to do so.


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## EPLC

Mahly said:


> Suppose the point is, that if holding the release more horizontal makes it easier to fire the hinge using "old school" back tension, it may still be a very viable method of shooting.
> While it doesn't work for you, it may well work for someone else.
> Just as "old school" shooters may find THAT technique works best for them, it might not work for someone else.
> 
> I brought up the horizontal/vertical thing as I remember it as I remembered back when I first got a hinge. NO ONE said anything about it being held horizontally. The instructions didn't mention it, the people I was getting advice from didn't talk about it. SO I started holding it vertically. Obviously, held that way, flexing the rhomboids didn't get the desired results.
> 
> I personally, prefer to keep everything working in one plane, so I use "back tension" only to hold, not to fire. I have been using one of Padgett's engines lately, and found that works very well for me.
> At the same time, I KNOW I can fire a release with "old school back tension", but it seems to mess with my float more. Larry doesn't seem to have that issue.
> In the end, I see a couple methods of firing a release. which one works best for you depends on who you are, and who is coaching you.
> 
> I would think EPLC would not get me the results I want by trying to teach me "old school back tension" as a firing engine.
> I would think Ron W would not get me the results I want by trying to teach me to manipulate the hinge.
> 
> Doing it the hard way (not having any coach) takes longer, but I have found what works best for me (or at least this latest engine works best of all the engines I have tried). I MIGHT have done "old school" better with someone like Ron W coaching me....maybe not. But where I am at now, I'm happy, and improving.
> 
> It's kind of like martial artists debating what style is best. Many systems have been proven to work. The 2 defining things are, what works best for YOU, and what your coach (mentor, friend at the range) trying to teach you. If they don't match, your gonna struggle till you find both pieces of the puzzle.
> 
> P.S. Some of those martial arts guys get CRAZY when asked what system is best and why LOL!


The statement in red states exactly the problem many people experience with the old school method. To position this as the "only true way", "the way it was designed", etc., etc. as some do only serves to hinder the many that do not find this method effective. 

As far as the teaching examples go, I can not speak for ron w but I would not be teaching any methodology that I did not believe in. What I can say is this: There was a time when I was influenced by the "experts" to believe in this "old school" method and therefore was on the "bandwagon" so to speak. It didn't work for me and after a very long period of darkness, I have seen the light.


----------



## PSE Archer

Instead of arguing on how to shoot a hinge, would it not be better to ask how "you - the shooter" shoots your hinge?

Politics, women, religion and how to shoot a hinge - What a man perceives is his reality.


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## EPLC

PSE Archer said:


> Instead of arguing on how to shoot a hinge, would it not be better to ask how "you - the shooter" shoots your hinge?
> 
> Politics, women, religion and how to shoot a hinge - What a man perceives is his reality.


Actually this was somewhat what I said originally but the freedom to post one's experience has been continually challenged by those that only see things their way. One thing leads to another, bunny trails are pursued, rehashed and rehashed again. And here we are.


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## grantmac

"using no way as way, having no limitation as limitation"

-Bruce Lee

“Using no way as way” means do not presuppose a way. Be in the moment. Be present. Be open to the best way to meet the moment in which you find yourself, rather than planning before hand what way will be best.

“Having no limitation as limitation” means keep an open mind. Do not limit yourself or your thinking. Do not let your beliefs or your style limit your experience.


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## Mahly

SonnyThomas said:


> Backwards, I believe. ron, old. EPLC, other means.
> 
> See no one wants to say who is right or wrong of what I have... No problem. Do it your way, perfect it and you'll do well....


Nope, I meant it as such, neither would be the best to teach methods they didn't think we're the best.


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## SonnyThomas

Mahly said:


> Nope, I meant it as such, neither would be the best to teach methods they didn't think we're the best.


Ahhh.. Now I got it....


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## SonnyThomas

I shot with a ASA Senior Pro today...Well, we were putting on demonstrations with both the thumb and hinge releases and having customers give them a try... These customers were bow hunters, index finger shooters. I Posted in "What did you do today." Tim now uses a thumb release and I do.
Long story short. Tim talked me out of my Stan two finger Deuces (2). I traded to get one back. He is of the back tension kind. He hadn't shot the Deuce in quite awhile. He used mine and the arrow was gone. He yelled that I changed it. Nope! I did not and told him he was use to his thumb release. He engaged his brain. His next shot was top of the X ring, 2nd was dead center of the X ring and his last split the X it's self at 3:00. He agreed it had been a while. We had the customers try back tension with our thumb releases and a decided improvement. Still, we had them get all in position, hold with back tension and stare hard at the target and they got off some darn good shots. Two of the customers were impressed and one charged up he'd like to get a thumb release. Believe me, all were more than a little fearful of the hinges, but saw they could be extremely accurate. No one wanted to try my Stan MagMicro Trio - no pulling post/barrel to hang on to 
One shot with his index release and applied the same principal and piled up some good groups....


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## rn3

Here's a thread started by DB back in 2012, relates some what to this discussion.
http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=1676924


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## southgaboy

Lazarus said:


> Opinions vary. :wink:
> 
> Kind of depends on if you are a shooter or a writer.


Guess I needed an invitation to post a comment..lol


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## ron w

Mahly said:


> Nope, I meant it as such, neither would be the best to teach methods they didn't think we're the best.


on the contrary, I can teach either method because I fully understand either method. I just prefer one over the other.
like Quigley said...." I never said I didn't know how to use a hand gun...I said I have no use for them".
.


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## EPLC

ron w said:


> on the contrary, I can teach either method because I fully understand either method. I just prefer one over the other.
> like Quigley said...." I never said I didn't know how to use a hand gun...I said I have no use for them".
> .


Thanks Ron, you've just made my day!


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## ron w

I guess I don't understand what you mean by, " you just made my day". 
there's a difference between understanding both methods and establishing the basic fundamentals, before branching off into a personal method.


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## EPLC

I didn't think you would, but believe it or not you did it again today!


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## cbrunson

EPLC said:


> I didn't think you would, but believe it or not you did it again today!


We need a "like" button don't we?


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## ron w

some 8 thousand active members, almost two thousand members using the forum presently, and two people disagreeing with me.....hhhmmm, that's not even enough to warrant a second look.


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## bowfisher

cbrunson said:


> We need a "like" button don't we?


:thumbs_up


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## EPLC

cbrunson said:


> We need a "like" button don't we?


:thumbs_up


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## Lazarus

cbrunson said:


> We need a "like" button don't we?


Wouldn't get much use around here now would it? :teeth:


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## cbrunson

Lazarus said:


> Wouldn't get much use around here now would it? :teeth:


It could show support from many of the folks that don't necessarily want to get in a pissing match. It's surprising how many there are via PM.


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## GRIV

> So, Larry Wise is a perpetuator of evil myths? GRIV is just a pro has-been that can pen articles with invented nomenclature? Vilifying these guys gets you where?


And People wonder why Pros don't post here much anymore.:tongue::tongue:


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## TNMAN

GRIV said:


> And People wonder why Pros don't post here much anymore.:tongue::tongue:


Well, I hope you read the very next post.



Lazarus said:


> Larry Wise is a very well respected coach. Ryals is doing a lot to bring kids into the sport. Both of those things are worthy of a great deal of respect. I have no interest in commenting further about any one personally.---


There will always be aholes on AT that would love nothing more than to run good pros away. Most of us want your input when you have time.

edit: the last chance lessons have been great stuff.


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## SonnyThomas

GRIV said:


> And People wonder why Pros don't post here much anymore.:tongue::tongue:





TNMAN said:


> Well, I hope you read the very next post.
> 
> 
> 
> There will always be aholes on AT that would love nothing more than to run good pros away. Most of us want your input when you have time.
> 
> edit: the last chance lessons have been great stuff.


All maligned of back tension or just plain messed up, a solid reply would go far..........


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## bgbls

Pretty new to hinge shooting need to know if this is ok to do. I come to anchor with all pressure on my index finger. Keeping pressure on index finger I curl my pinky back at same time feeling like the point of my elbow is moving back in line with arrow. The arrow then fires. It took me a while to get it not too hot or cold.


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## RCR_III

I know of some archers that shoot this way with good results. Are you having any issues or problems you'd like addressed? Sometimes that's the starting point to whether or not you need to continue to execute a certain way.


bgbls said:


> Pretty new to hinge shooting need to know if this is ok to do. I come to anchor with all pressure on my index finger. Keeping pressure on index finger I curl my pinky back at same time feeling like the point of my elbow is moving back in line with arrow. The arrow then fires. It took me a while to get it not too hot or cold.


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## bgbls

Thanks for response. Did not want to keep practicing this way if not a good way to shoot hinge


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## GRIV

Lemme read through all this so I can understand where y'all are coming from and I'll post a my thoughts.


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## subconsciously

GRIV said:


> And People wonder why Pros don't post here much anymore.:tongue::tongue:


Pro or not, there are a lot of us that don't post on here much anymore. 
Griv, met you in the elevator with my wife in Louisville in 2010. She just so happened to win Nationals that year. It was a pleasure.


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## LadyBowhunter12

GRIV said:


> Lemme read through all this so I can understand where y'all are coming from and I'll post a my thoughts.


Lets hear your thoughts!


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## SonnyThomas

LadyBowhunter12 said:


> Lets hear your thoughts!


Well, the rest of May, June, July, August, September, and here it is October 25. I like to hear his thoughts also, but.........


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## Iowa shooter

SonnyThomas said:


> Well, the rest of May, June, July, August, September, and here it is October 25. I like to hear his thoughts also, but.........


Maybe he feels like posting here is comparable to putting his head on a chopping block. Lol


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## Sasquech

Griv don't waste your time ! This fight has no winners. Eeryone on this forum knows a hinge release needs rotation to go off. Some get it by yielding the index finger. Some get it by the shape of the hand and release setting fine enough that they can pull and get 2 fingers flesh to compress less than the index finger and the release goes off no rotation in their mind. But it did rotate then there are the hand manipulation guys that intentionally rotate the hinge with either their fingers or wrist. Any position you take will be attacked by the others all are right all need to pick what works for them. Some of us have extensively practiced all these to fully understand the pros and cons of each. They all have pros and cons. It is simply what gives your body mechanics and shooting style the best result. We all need to stop trying to convert the masses and convince the rest they are wrong. They are all right just a point of view. The results are in the score and if you all master all of the above you will learn more and be smarter in the end.


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## SonnyThomas

Sasquech said:


> Griv don't waste your time ! This fight has no winners. Eeryone on this forum knows a hinge release needs rotation to go off. Some get it by yielding the index finger. Some get it by the shape of the hand and release setting fine enough that they can pull and get 2 fingers flesh to compress less than the index finger and the release goes off no rotation in their mind. But it did rotate then there are the hand manipulation guys that intentionally rotate the hinge with either their fingers or wrist. Any position you take will be attacked by the others all are right all need to pick what works for them. Some of us have extensively practiced all these to fully understand the pros and cons of each. They all have pros and cons. It is simply what gives your body mechanics and shooting style the best result. We all need to stop trying to convert the masses and convince the rest they are wrong. They are all right just a point of view. The results are in the score and if you all master all of the above you will learn more and be smarter in the end.


May 18th Griv gave his post. And now you have to blow off at the mouth?!!! He doesn't want to reply, he doesn't want to reply. I can't blame him, but he was the one that offered.....


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## dmacey

I can't blame him either. The keyboard Vegas champs who've never been to Vegas on here certainly roll his eyes too far into the back of his head, I would imagine. Good entertainment for us mortal folks, but I can see it being a waste of time for someone like GRIV who's actually out there in the trenches..... 

I've read some of these release aid threads and, yeah, I'd stay 100 miles away too LOL.

DM


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## Padgett

Yes, in years past there were some wars fought. Before I became a member here it happened and after I became a member here it happened again more than once, it has taken these wars to finally break through into where we are right now.

So where are we right now?

1. We have cleaned out the guys that that shove one method down peoples throat and stop all other methods from even being discussed.

2. We have lost many of the pro shooters that had their bridges burned in the first war or two and vanished.

3. We are presenting each and every method out there to anyone that needs help with any of them from execution of a release to aiming to floating etc.

4. Right now you can have discussions about any method and the subtle things that go along with it without being called a hinge cheater or any other comment trying to make you feel like a failure.


I personally think the main reason that our pro shooters aren't here is that almost all of them have normal jobs all day long and they have to shoot after work and range targets and be a dad and husband in what free time is left. They simply can't come here and hang out and remain a pro shooter on top of their game. The only reason I am here a lot is because I went from a class room teacher who could check in once every hour for 3 minutes and quickly post when the kids were doing home work time to my current teaching position as the iss teacher. I have two kids in my room today and they are sitting quietly serving their time for getting written up, I can work with people all day long from 8am to 3:30 pm because I am stuck in my chair with a computer.

I am what I am and I wish that I was a top dog pro but I simply am not, I am a really strong shooter that can go a week without missing a 5-spot x and I am earning my way up the ladder closer to that next level and since I have won into the semi pro class you know what that next level is. I am going to share what I have learned that has gotten me to this point and when I earn the right to the next level I will still be here sharing with anyone who wants to listen or needs help. Nothing more or less.


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## dmacey

Padgett said:


> Yes, in years past there were some wars fought. Before I became a member here it happened and after I became a member here it happened again more than once, it has taken these wars to finally break through into where we are right now.
> 
> So where are we right now?
> 
> 1. We have cleaned out the guys that that shove one method down peoples throat and stop all other methods from even being discussed.
> 
> 2. We have lost many of the pro shooters that had their bridges burned in the first war or two and vanished.
> 
> 3. We are presenting each and every method out there to anyone that needs help with any of them from execution of a release to aiming to floating etc.
> 
> 4. Right now you can have discussions about any method and the subtle things that go along with it without being called a hinge cheater or any other comment trying to make you feel like a failure.


That's not my observation, unfortunately. I'm still seeing instances here and there of keyboard Vegas champs appointing themselves moderators of some of the content on here; when they're challenged, they still throw tantrums and Mahly has to step in at the end to restore order. 
I see it enough still that a lot of the good content can get obliterated, or at least more difficult to find than it should be. 
On the other hand, that's just par for online forums and there's not too terribly much that can be done about it. I've still managed to find a lot of good information on here though and I think the moderators do a great job at a kind of thankless job here. 
I don't think there will ever be a complete purge there, so we'll just have to accept the bad along with the good. But that's life, I guess.



> I personally think the main reason that our pro shooters aren't here is that almost all of them have normal jobs all day long and they have to shoot after work and range targets and be a dad and husband in what free time is left. They simply can't come here and hang out and remain a pro shooter on top of their game. The only reason I am here a lot is because I went from a class room teacher who could check in once every hour for 3 minutes and quickly post when the kids were doing home work time to my current teaching position as the iss teacher. I have two kids in my room today and they are sitting quietly serving their time for getting written up, I can work with people all day long from 8am to 3:30 pm because I am stuck in my chair with a computer.
> 
> I am what I am and I wish that I was a top dog pro but I simply am not, I am a really strong shooter that can go a week without missing a 5-spot x and I am earning my way up the ladder closer to that next level and since I have won into the semi pro class you know what that next level is. I am going to share what I have learned that has gotten me to this point and when I earn the right to the next level I will still be here sharing with anyone who wants to listen or needs help. Nothing more or less.


What I've gotten out of your posts is pure information, without the self-appointed moderator stuff I've seen from several others who shall not be named. That's just speaking for myself, but for me, the rubber meets the road if what someone shares is something that you can use to improve their shooting. And I would say what I've read of yours definitely qualifies there. Credentials don't matter to me because anyone on an online forum can make up whatever credentials he or she likes unless they're well-known to place at Vegas or the World Cup or at other elite level competitions, as GRIV has. And even then, they could just be KB warriors under a famous pseudonym, so you still have to be careful.

So I for one definitely appreciate everything you share on here and have taken as much of it to heart as my mediocre skill set can exploit LOL.

PS: I agree with you about the pros. Far be it from me to know much about the life of a typical pro, but I should think they're pretty busy out there pounding the X at tournaments. Unlike myself who is still working on his basic shot and figuring out how to get to local tournaments because of work and all that mess LOL. So I'm sure that's a big contributor as well...

My .02,

DM


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## RCR_III

GRIV documents his thoughts on release use through video and written avenues as well. What would be his motivation to want to come on here to be belittled? He has his platform and for those of us that appreciate it and look to it, it's there.


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## SonnyThomas

I don't think any of here today would trash anything Griv would give. If any one Post/Thread broke the atmosphere of the magical realm of hinges I would say it was Daniel Boone's. It wasn't Levi or any other top shooter that hailed the coming of manipulating the hinge. Cheating the hinge became real, became honest because it worked and worked well. Still, back tension is real, used in part and fully.


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## Padgett

A new member of archery talk must:

1. use common sense to sift through the information and threads and find things that can help you out. 

2. learn how to get past the tough to deal with members and move on without getting wrapped up in their 

As a long time member:

1. Enjoy the site and the conversations to be a part of.

2. Share what you have learned with the new members.

3. Lead the new members to the threads or information that we have.

I was almost 40 years old when I was lurking around archery talk and then finally became a member, I guarantee you that I thought i was a accomplished shooter back then. I was so wrong, I sucked and had little to no knowledge in any area from form to execution to equipment to aiming or anything else. I have went back and read through my threads and posts way back and it is so funny to see what I thought and was talking about back then. I think going back and seeing where I came from helps me to be more patient with the new shooters that I work with in threads knowing that over time they can learn the lessons and progress just like I did.

When you suck and don't even know that you suck and you are 100% confident in your shooting it takes time for you to actually see the truth and then you can break through the brick walls that have been holding you back, those guys put up a good fight but really they are the ones that once I can get through to them and they start learning the lessons of shooting that are out there to learn that are most appreciative. I am one of those guys that wasted over 30 years of my life shooting a bow incorrectly and I can't have those decades back, I am so glad that archery talk gave me a chance to actually enjoy shooting at a high level and I repay by giving back the lessons I learned to as many people that I can.


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## Padgett

RCR 111, I totally agree on the Griv stuff. I can still remember the first time I saw his video on yielding where he explains how to do it both with a index finger release and a hand held. I still recommend to guys to search for that video, the key is to have more than one person presenting the information. I have learned as a teacher that even the best teacher out there doesn't connect to every student and having another teacher to present the information in a slightly different way makes all the difference.


----------



## SonnyThomas

Padgett said:


> RCR 111, I totally agree on the Griv stuff. I can still remember the first time I saw his video on yielding where he explains how to do it both with a index finger release and a hand held. I still recommend to guys to search for that video, the key is to have more than one person presenting the information. I have learned as a teacher that even the best teacher out there doesn't connect to every student and having another teacher to present the information in a slightly different way makes all the difference.


And it is. We had many telling us how they did it and lines were drawn so that "armies" formed and battles began. X Pro said such and probably meant what Y Pro meant and what Z Pro said was still different, but still got results like X and Y. 

Daniel Boone's Post/Thread, coming up on 4 years old; *"Backtension as told to me from Chance, Nathan and Eric Griggs."*

http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=1676924

Read EGriggs #30, 38 and 40. Slip down to #202, you'll love it. Kstigall is there. tmorelli is there. Padgett a bit. Read mine, 251. Tom got me wound up and I burned a few days tinkering for pure bow fit and lo and behold I shot my first ever 5 spot with my eyes closed, witnessed by others at different times (won a few diet Coke!). Won another Coke from 30 yards when someone made it different. Let me sight in and then he turned off the lights. Pitch black my arrow was dang near dead center in the X ring. Yep, field14 and nuts&bolts there. montigre (Ata girl! Got a pat on the back). Mahly and Lazarus.


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## Padgett

I have read through that one more than once and love it, I like to look at where I was at mentally and at that time I really wasn't even a real hinge shooter yet. I was just scratching the surface of understanding things and that thread really helped, at the time I didn't realize that it was helping but it had a effect on me for sure.


----------



## Padgett

Wow, I just went through all 19 pages again.


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## SonnyThomas

Great reading, ain't it


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## dmacey

Oh man, is that thread 40 miles of bad road or what? Great info, but I'm already starting to get tired just a few pages in .

DM


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## stromdidilly

Being new to this site, I love threads like that. A) a CRAP ton of information B) you can start to formulate backgrounds for people that have been here for a while and have an opinion on just about everyone and everything


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## SonnyThomas

dmacey said:


> Oh man, is that thread 40 miles of bad road or what? Great info, but I'm already starting to get tired just a few pages in .
> 
> DM


Well, I don't know many times I've went back through that Thread to touch on things, but some. Got to reading again today and got inspired. I shoot pretty decent to start and I if I spread out my shooting I shoot pretty good throughout the day. Getting to shooting maybe too much and communication between me and my back gets garbled and I start ripping shots. Okay, my back holds well, but it won't do what I want it do. I read something and I can't tell you what, but I went out and some how relaxed. My Zenith, forever getting to the click zoomed to the click and I then just pulled with my middle and ring finger and magic, sort of. I explained it more to Padgett in a PM, but took a break and went to practicing. I shot until dark and my wimpy back never got in the way. I've got a hole as big around as my thumb where arrow after arrow dropped in. Hey, I wasn't perfect. When I screwed up I had 4 or 5 shots go way low, but dead center of the 5. All in all I felt more comfortable than I've ever felt using a hinge. Nope, not 100%, but enough the Zenith is going to get a work out for a few days and just maybe give confidence to set aside my thumb release.


----------



## Lazarus

SonnyThomas said:


> And it is. We had many telling us how they did it and lines were drawn so that "armies" formed and battles began. X Pro said such and probably meant what Y Pro meant and what Z Pro said was still different, but still got results like X and Y.
> 
> Daniel Boone's Post/Thread, coming up on 4 years old; *"Backtension as told to me from Chance, Nathan and Eric Griggs."*
> 
> http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=1676924
> 
> Read EGriggs #30, 38 and 40. Slip down to #202, you'll love it. Kstigall is there. tmorelli is there. Padgett a bit. Read mine, 251. Tom got me wound up and I burned a few days tinkering for pure bow fit and lo and behold I shot my first ever 5 spot with my eyes closed, witnessed by others at different times (won a few diet Coke!). Won another Coke from 30 yards when someone made it different. Let me sight in and then he turned off the lights. Pitch black my arrow was dang near dead center in the X ring. Yep, field14 and nuts&bolts there. montigre (Ata girl! Got a pat on the back). Mahly and Lazarus.


Don't forget Dean Pridgen and Mike Leiter chimed in. Two of the most solid shooters to ever pick up a bow, one of which might be THE most solid shooter to ever pick up a bow. One of their posts contains more background than 10,000 of most of us's. 

I just read the first 8 pages again, great topic. So much good info and discussion. :cheers:


----------



## SonnyThomas

Tried to catch as many as I could. All of us that are older have the deepest respect for Dean. Mike, great at archery, leaving for such a long time, and then coming back. Problem is the vast majority don't compete at a higher level to know these two and more. Mike wasn't shooting when I began shooting. Randy Ulmer wasn't shooting when I began shooting.
So many that posted back then and so few that still post or open a subject. Daniel was good that, opening a discussion/subject. PMed with him. So archery active and now his health. Can't remember, JAVI stopped sometime before Daniel's post. Spoke with him on the phone for a hour. I've spoke with so many, not here, but on the phone. Won't forget talking with Doug Springer, information wise and my phone bill. Only $60.00


----------



## Mahly

Back in the day when "all the pros" frequented AT, AT was the biggest game in town.
Now with Facebook, and Youtube, they have the ability to discuss what they want to discuss, and be their own moderators. If they don't like you disagreeing with them, they can delete you and your comments without a 2nd thought.
Their "likes" and "friends/followers" on their pages can be a benefit to them. WHY give it away here with no control over the content, and no "score keeping" to look good for sponsors and advertisers?
I do not blame them one little bit for not posting here. But what we DO have here is open discussion of the topics. Yes, if people start attacking others, we have to step in and try to keep things civil, but in the end, you DO get ALL sides of the story. You don't get that on Facebook.

I LOVE when a pro make a video about technique, and I am "friends" with quite a few on Facebook. But to really LEARN and understand the issue? That's why I am here.

Of ALL the pros videos, and all of the debate and discussion here, I chose to make my own engine based on several different engines described in this forum. I took the information here, found what works best for me in each, and Frankensteined MY engine....the one that works best for ME.

I would not have found the technique that works best for me just by listening to "_____" Pro on Facebook, and I would not have learned the pros and cons of each technique watching a Youtube video.

I watch a LOT of World Cup archery on Youtube.... There is NO one true technique. There is no ONE true engine. There is NO one true form. There is a bunch of people using what they found works best for themselves......winning.

If you want to use the techniques of "____" pro, go to their Facebook page and get the lowdown from them.
If you want to find out what works best for YOU, read a bunch of pages here. With all the disagreement, it's a bit of work (we could make this easier by worrying more about posting why what works for us works for us than posting why a technique posted by another isn't as good (in your mind)) but the information is there.


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## stromdidilly

Mahly said:


> I would not have found the technique that works best for me just by listening to "_____" Pro on Facebook, and I would not have learned the pros and cons of each technique watching a Youtube video.
> 
> I watch a LOT of World Cup archery on Youtube.... There is NO one true technique. There is no ONE true engine. There is NO one true form. There is a bunch of people using what they found works best for themselves......winning.


Quick hijack. I'm a huge fan of WorldArchery TV myself and recently stumbled on the Pro Archery Series on Vimeo...if you haven't checked that out yet, you definitely should.


**We now return you to your regularly scheduled bickeri...errr...programming**


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## Sasquech

Sonny Griv and I have talked about this subject at length at Vegas last year. It is great to see him back. And I appreciate the hell out of him. My comment was sincere these discussions are battles and I think my post was concise and to the point a summary of the multitude of threads and positions on the subject.


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## SonnyThomas

GRIV said:


> *Lemme read through all this so I can understand where y'all are coming from and I'll post a my thoughts*.





Sasquech said:


> Sonny Griv and I have talked about this subject at length at Vegas last year. It is great to see him back. And I appreciate the hell out of him. My comment was sincere these discussions are battles and I think my post was concise and to the point a summary of the multitude of threads and positions on the subject.


Pretty much all of us knows why people like Griv and Pros don't hop in here. To keep slamming it in others faces.....rude at best.


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## SonnyThomas

Sent Padgett some pictures to show my hand and holding a hinge.....His first words were; "Holy hell," 

Actually, my banged up hand looks pretty good until it wraps around a medium hinge handle :sad:


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## subconsciously

No matter how good the information, some people have it and some people don't. 

Most people are not willing to think like a gardener and work like a carpenter.


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## dmacey

SonnyThomas said:


> Pretty much all of us knows why people like Griv and Pros don't hop in here. To keep slamming it in others faces.....rude at best.


Another thought - the pros have to make a living, thats what the "pro" part of their credentials means. And you don't earn anything trying to get your post past a keyboard World Cup champ who's appointed himself a moderator of your post's content. All forums have these derelicts including AT as we've all seen. So if you try to you can waste the better part of a day or more on an effort that accomplishes nothing at all, financially or otherwise.

So there's a financial incentive too, I hate to say. Guys like GRIV are real champions and they do real work with real archers winning real competitions, so they got their hands full already.

Just a thought about that,

DM


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## SonnyThomas

A little PMing, I think we can let it pass..........


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## dmacey

SonnyThomas said:


> A little PMing, I think we can let it pass..........


Well to bring it back around to the actual topic, I don't even shoot a hinge-style, but I've copy-n-pasted posts #30 and #43, from Eric Griggs and Kstigal from that thread. Sort of like being able to peer into the mind of true pros who shoot and win true championships, etc. This is just great stuff, IMO. Almost makes me want to go buy that HBX that makes my credit card whimper when I look at it online and try the hinge style release out again.... 

DM


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## Lazarus

dmacey said:


> Another thought - the pros have to make a living, thats what the "pro" part of their credentials means. And you don't earn anything trying to get your post past a keyboard World Cup champ who's appointed himself a moderator of your post's content. All forums have these derelicts including AT as we've all seen. ,
> 
> DM


Honest question dmacey. You're here. I'm curious who you are talking about in the above post, but that's not my question. I've read your advice and theory filled posts for some time now.

What have you won lately? :set1_thinking: 

I'd like to "bring it back around" but I really have nothing to ad. :cheers:


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## SonnyThomas

dmacey said:


> Another thought - the pros have to make a living, thats what the "pro" part of their credentials means. And you don't earn anything trying to get your post past a keyboard World Cup champ who's appointed himself a moderator of your post's content. All forums have these derelicts including AT as we've all seen.
> DM





Lazarus said:


> Honest question dmacey. You're here. I'm curious who you are talking about in the above post, but that's not my question. I've read your advice and theory filled posts for some time now.
> 
> *What have you won lately?* :set1_thinking:
> 
> I'd like to "bring it back around" but I really have nothing to ad. :cheers:


Not that I question your question, but I could question this to the vast majority of AT members, to the vast majority of all who shoot National events. I've asked a few that attend National events for the year of just how much it costs them. Reported was something of $4000 to $5000 dollars and X number of days on the road and away from home. And to finish in the bottom half of the score sheet every time?

Now, I go on about this due to the overwhelming number of people, mostly in General Archery Discussion, that have to have their bows Super Tuned and arrows built to perfection. Where the Hell are their credentials or real proof to so profoundly to state bows have to be Super Tuned and arrows built to perfection?


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## dmacey

SonnyThomas said:


> Not that I question your question, but I could question this to the vast majority of AT members, to the vast majority of all who shoot National events. I've asked a few that attend National events for the year of just how much it costs them. Reported was something of $4000 to $5000 dollars and X number of days on the road and away from home. And to finish in the bottom half of the score sheet every time?
> 
> Now, I go on about this due to the overwhelming number of people, mostly in General Archery Discussion, that have to have their bows Super Tuned and arrows built to perfection. Where the Hell are their credentials or real proof to so profoundly to state bows have to be Super Tuned and arrows built to perfection?


Well, ya see...... the thing about the internet and credentials....... I think you can guess where this is going LOL...... 

The real problem with internet credentials is that anyone can invent any credentials they want online. It can just be a kid with a laptop out in the boonies somewhere claiming to have a 300/57x game and there's really no way to tell in actuality. So the rule of thumb is to not take them seriously unless a) the credentials are demonstrated and b) proven to be associated to the actual poster, the guy actually poking on the KB keys, claiming them. 

So, particularly when aggression is engaged in, the best default position is to simply disregard it as a simple keyboard tantrum (and report to the real moderator of the forum as I have done and will do from here on out), unless/until the source is actually verified to be of the quality claimed. That's why I have no internet credentials - I barely have any in my real archery life. So only the insecure will feel obligated to take my posts seriously and engage in attacks, _especially_ if I happen to question them on a matter. the rest will take what they want and leave the rest, which is what we all should really do with the information here in the end.

But yes you're absolutely right, IMO, about the cost of competing. Just the gas alone to drive to a venue can set you back significantly, especially if you drive a big gas guzzler like I do .

DM


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## pwyrick

I'd like to weigh in on the issues of "credentials" and "what have you won lately?" Sometimes, performance ability and knowledge meld perfectly together for some remarkable athletes. But my experience tells me that the best coaches are rarely the best at their sport, and that goes for manufacturers, tuners, teachers, writers, etc. Good information doesn't have to reside in a great performer. Sometimes it does. Discounting information because the informer doesn't perform well enough may avoid the topic at hand. I've not won anything on the national level; probably won't. My information may be garbage, but it is garbage because its garbage, not because I don't shoot well enough.


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## cbrunson

Lazarus said:


> Honest question dmacey. You're here. I'm curious who you are talking about in the above post, but that's not my question. I've read your advice and theory filled posts for some time now.
> 
> What have you won lately? :set1_thinking:
> 
> I'd like to "bring it back around" but I really have nothing to ad. :cheers:


I think the issue lies more with admitted beginner level (or proven fakes) calling out folks that are actual doers. 

It takes a lot of hard work and determination, as well you know, given the fact that you have many more achievements than I do. Some of these guys just don't understand that, because they haven't actually been through the learning process. They've spent a number of years just running in the circles, and maybe reading some inspiring voodoo articles or books, and then become self appointed experts or arbitrators in the masked public. 

I think maybe if they spent a little more time in the real circles, where these elevated status pros are standing right next to you, maybe they would see that these guys are normal guys like you and me that have just put in the time and hard work to achieve more.


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## dmacey

pwyrick said:


> I'd like to weigh in on the issues of "credentials" and "what have you won lately?" Sometimes, performance ability and knowledge meld perfectly together for some remarkable athletes. But my experience tells me that the best coaches are rarely the best at their sport, and that goes for manufacturers, tuners, teachers, writers, etc. Good information doesn't have to reside in a great performer. Sometimes it does. Discounting information because the informer doesn't perform well enough may avoid the topic at hand. I've not won anything on the national level; probably won't. My information may be garbage, but it is garbage because its garbage, not because I don't shoot well enough.


Good points, IMO. One thing I look for is does the source ever ask any questions or discuss issues of their own. If they never have any threads open on an issue they may be having, and only ever seem to offer advice and talk about how experienced they are, etc., that should raise a Yellow Flag on whether the source is experienced or simply repetitive of other sources of information. Especially if they're aggressively sensitive to criticism or questioning, as several examples demonstrate on this forum, the Red Flag should go up. 

The ones who actually respond with real and experienced information without the aggression - say, Padgett, SonnyThomas, montigre and others - are the ones, to me anyway, that are trustworthy. Sorry folks, didn't mean to name names but I have whole pages of study material culled from ya'lls posts .

DM


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## dmacey

PS: that goes back to the topic of the thread. If you read the cited thread, that's what ultimately ran off the folks like Eric Griggs and, elsewhere, George Ryals and others. The self-appointed moderators of content trying to moderate their content (and the analogue we saw attempted with my post above). That's different than simply questioning the information - that's motivated by an honest desire for more information or clarification. But when the "inquiry" is clearly insincere and comes from "internet insecurity", that's a different matter altogether especially if it's your bread and butter. And, you can imagine the task that puts on the plate of the real forum moderators. They have to walk a fine line there between what's trolling, etc., and what's allowable and follows the forum rules, etc.

I personally consider problems that others have with my posts their problems and not mine, but then again I'm not a professional with a limited amount of surplus time and effort to spend in any one place. I find it good (if not kind of sad at the same time) entertainment when I'm not shooting, but I can understand how a professional archer wouldn't want to spend the time.....

DM


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## SonnyThomas

pwyrick said:


> the best coaches are rarely the best at their sport, and that goes for manufacturers, tuners, teachers, writers, etc. Good information doesn't have to reside in a great performer. Sometimes it does. Discounting information because the informer doesn't perform well enough may avoid the topic at hand.


Baseballs' Connie Mack was not all that all great of a player, but went on to be one of most famous baseball coaches ever.


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## dmacey

SonnyThomas said:


> Baseballs' Connie Mack was not all that all great of a player, but went on to be one of most famous baseball coaches ever.


Yep, and there are the two old sayings:
- those that can't do, teach
- those that can't teach, do

Take your pick, lol.....

DM


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## Lazarus

cbrunson said:


> I think the issue lies more with admitted beginner level (or proven fakes) calling out folks that are actual doers.
> 
> It takes a lot of hard work and determination, as well you know, given the fact that you have many more achievements than I do. Some of these guys just don't understand that, because they haven't actually been through the learning process. They've spent a number of years just running in the circles, and maybe reading some inspiring voodoo articles or books, and then become self appointed experts or arbitrators in the masked public.
> 
> I think maybe if they spent a little more time in the real circles, where these elevated status pros are standing right next to you, maybe they would see that these guys are normal guys like you and me that have just put in the time and hard work to achieve more.


Knew you'd get it. :thumbs_up You're gonna be a great shooter one of these days. Sooner rather than later I suspect. 

As for the question I posed, I just realized who it was I was inquiring about. I regret I wasted my time. :sad:


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## RCR_III

Back on topic.....


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## Jaliv92

Ttt


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## Jaliv92

Jaliv92 said:


> Ttt


Sorry I meant tagged.....


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## Sasquech

[emoji851][emoji985][emoji378][emoji325] love the topic could not delete my postsorry


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## SonnyThomas

Trying this manipulation thing, but due, I guess, to my reattached scapula, I guess, tiring out and quitting on me.

Struggling here with trying to manipulate a hinge. Breaking habits (engaging back tension when I should just be holding with back tension), not able to relax as I do with a thumb release, hinge releases not as I want them, but slowly working out and my overhauled shoulder not helping. When I put it together I can slap arrows, even bust nocks. It's a new kind of "work" and tiring. Just about happy with results and tiring makes repeating well go wrong.
I've sold off 3 hinges because I just could not get along with them, mostly just too small for my hand. The 3 that I have, the Zenith is just small enough my middle finger touches, presses on the head, so some grinding is in order. My Stan MagMicro (large) requires the draw length of my bow draw length shortened or shorten my d-loop some. My two finger Stan Deuce is giving best results.


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## dmacey

Lazarus said:


> As for the question I posed, I just realized who it was I was inquiring about. I regret I wasted my time. :sad:


Mahly is the moderator of this forum, not you. I'd be more than happy to discuss the content of my posts, but if you just want to moderate what I say you'll have to take that up with him. Meanwhile, simply don't read what I write and you should be just fine.
DM


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## Padgett

It is tough, I know that for me having my actual last name as my user name here at archery talk has added pressure to me just showing up to local and national shoots. Anytime I show up and get into a team event or my weekend group at least one or two of the guys in the group or surrounding groups will be guys I have worked with and they want to see me shoot. Many times they just flat out say something like "I want to see if you can hit like you claim on archery talk" 

If you show up here in Marshfield, Missouri you can stand with me on my little local shop range and talk about shooting or hunting and I am going to rattle off a hundred or so shots where either don't miss a x or I might miss one or two. If you are in my group at a team event we will probably win 60 or 80 bucks because I am going to help the pro shooter by stepping up and shooting the first shot and giving him the good feed back to nail down the yardage by the second person shoots. If I am seeing the numbers for the main shoot you will watch me be in the top 10 trying to be on the podium but you aren't going to see a guy suffering with his shooting, just a guy trying to see the numbers.

The one venue that I really want to have some success in is indoor, I have only been to two of the bigger shoots and both were the iowa pro am. I shot respectable scores but nothing to make a dent into the top 10. 

One thing you have to remember about most of the pro shooters is they have to deal with getting their butts kicked almost all year long, the same couple guys win almost all of the asa pro 3d events and when levi wins his share and tim wins his couple it only leaves 1 tournament for the rest of the pack. Then levi shows up and makes shoot downs at the indoor stuff ahead of the top indoor specific guys. 

I have mentioned it a couple times this year that I have screwed up and won into semi pro 3d for asa and now if I have a solid year and win enough money I could be in the stinking pro class without a win nationally in any class and then have to beat Levi at 40 freaking up. Crap, I am still trying to figure out how to shoot over 20 up on a regular basis.


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## SonnyThomas

Ahhhhh. 40 up. Well, I heard it was cause Pros have the easier course


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## dmacey

Well... I don't want to jinx it by saying it out loud, but I may be going back to recurve full-time for various reasons. And compound maybe just for hunting or something. So I won't be shooting much in the gold or even the red for a looong time if I decide to do that. 

Sure wish I was near MO, I'd still love to come over there and get some coaching, and then have you guys really show me how it's done...

DM


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## tonygoz

tag


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## Sasquech

I used to think I was hot stuff then USA archery took away the outer 10 from The 40 cm fita target (Vegas 3spot) shooting a 300 game with a small Nicole as the x has humbled me a bit can't break out of the 280's (high 290s outer10's but boy does it make you clean up your release. You cannot win that game with out solid form. All the way around.


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## Padgett

I would love to shoot with many of you guys but you don't have to come to missouri, when I show up to asa events there are tons of awesome from a variety of classes there who are doing the same thing I am doing. Most of the time when I mention archery talk the response it that "I won't touch that place with a 10 ft pole", these guys for a variety of reasons aren't interested in being a member of a forum where you have to put out effort to belong. 

So they aren't going to be here just like most pro shooters, but they are at the local 3d shoots and indoor leagues and they are awesome shooters and a wealth of knowledge in their own way.

I have had a variety of guys show up over the last few years and shoot with me for a day or we meet up at a asa and spend a few hours on the 3d practice range and each and every time is has been something fun.


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## dmacey

Padgett said:


> Most of the time when I mention archery talk the response it that "I won't touch that place with a 10 ft pole", these guys for a variety of reasons aren't interested in being a member of a forum where you have to put out effort to belong.


Well, as you saw earlier in the thread with me, only the few insecure types here and there are concerned with "belonging" and making sure you and your posts meet with their approval - nothing anyone would want to "belong" to anyway. I just don't tolerate it, but that's just my approach and it may not be the way others like to do things. And, to make this pertinent to the topic of the thread, it was the same thing going on in the cited thread as we've already discussed.

For me, there's no belonging, it's just a place where I try to share info and gather whatever I can too. At least for me, I take what I want and what seems to be valuable and leave the rest. I get the idea of "online community", but, IMO, down that road There Be Dragons....
So, would I love to see pros like Eric Griggs and GRIV come back and post their experiences? Of course. But realistically, I think they got more on their plates in that regard than guys like myself. I just don't let the insecure complainers stop me, but that's just how I am. Others may not want to deal with that and they're perfectly in the right to refuse to do so.

For a real community, it's like you said - folks actually getting together and shooting together. That's where the rubber really meets the road. IMO...

DM


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## redman

great info


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## Padgett

Just last week on tuesday I showed up to my local league night and Sam my local indoor pro was there warming up, we shot next to each other all night and when the scoring round was over I had shot a 320 x I think and shot ok for me this winter and I asked him what he shot and it was a 300 29x. He did is so freaking easy and I didn't even have to make any line calls for him because they were all just solid baby x's except for one of them. 

I did ask him how he was executing his hinge, he is shooting a honey badger in the medium size and he requested a faster click than comes with the honey badger. So, he said that he is coming to anchor and releasing the peg and as he comes to click he begins pulling really hard into the wall and it just fires. He said that the faster click moon they sent him is really helping with this because he doesn't have to do anything with his hand at all and just pull really hard into the wall. I think he uses around 27 lbs of holding weight. He is not coming to click as he comes to anchor either, he is using a thumb peg and as he hits the wall he preloads the wall really strong and then tightens his fingers and comes to click and then without pausing pulls even harder into the wall and then it is gone. Sam is a very active and strong shooter, he is not a valley sitter just waiting around for something to happen. This weekend he won the midwest sectionals with two 60x rounds of 5-spot.

I have been working on this approach of shooting for a good 3 weeks now and it does have promise, it is so much more aggressive than what I have done in the past but I can say that I am enjoying my shooting and learning a different way to do things. The fundamentals are the same but it is the amount of pressure your entire system feels that is the hardest thing to accept and deal with but as soon as you accept that the pressure is a good thing you can move on to learning how to enjoy the feel.


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## bgbls

Padgett said:


> Just last week on tuesday I showed up to my local league night and Sam my local indoor pro was there warming up, we shot next to each other all night and when the scoring round was over I had shot a 320 x I think and shot ok for me this winter and I asked him what he shot and it was a 300 29x. He did is so freaking easy and I didn't even have to make any line calls for him because they were all just solid baby x's except for one of them.
> 
> I did ask him how he was executing his hinge, he is shooting a honey badger in the medium size and he requested a faster click than comes with the honey badger. So, he said that he is coming to anchor and releasing the peg and as he comes to click he begins pulling really hard into the wall and it just fires. He said that the faster click moon they sent him is really helping with this because he doesn't have to do anything with his hand at all and just pull really hard into the wall. I think he uses around 27 lbs of holding weight. He is not coming to click as he comes to anchor either, he is using a thumb peg and as he hits the wall he preloads the wall really strong and then tightens his fingers and comes to click and then without pausing pulls even harder into the wall and then it is gone. Sam is a very active and strong shooter, he is not a valley sitter just waiting around for something to happen. This weekend he won the midwest sectionals with two 60x rounds of 5-spot.
> 
> I have been working on this approach of shooting for a good 3 weeks now and it does have promise, it is so much more aggressive than what I have done in the past but I can say that I am enjoying my shooting and learning a different way to do things. The fundamentals are the same but it is the amount of pressure your entire system feels that is the hardest thing to accept and deal with but as soon as you accept that the pressure is a good thing you can move on to learning how to enjoy the feel.


So just curious is your hinge shooting fundamentals 99% complete and this is just a little tweak to your hinge set up process. Are you afraid his could screw up the foundation you already have in place.


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## Padgett

Exactly, you hit it on the nose. 

I am doing everything the same fundamentally from my form to my aiming and my firing engine but by doing the things I went through above that sam uses allows me to do those things with a more aggressive approach. 

I shot with fingers for 30 years and got my first cobra release in 2005 I believe and a d-loop, up till then I shot with a finger tab. From 2005 up until late 2014 early 2015 I was a valley sitter who touched the wall and just felt the bow holding weight. Then I finally worked on my draw length and began using preload into the wall but looking back on it I had been a valley sitter for over 30 years of shooting so I entered into the preload on the light side. 

This fall I snapped my bicep tendon so I didn't get to shoot until early december I believe after recovering from surgery, that forced me to be a start up shooter and use the whole winter season as getting back into shooter shape and up to my normal level of shooting. Hence, I put winning on hold and just executed smooth shots. About a month ago is when I decided to go ahead and switch to a click hinge for the second half of the winter season and I also decided to allow myself to use the more aggressive method that Sam uses since I was still in get up to speed mode in my training. to me this is the first time ever that I have actually been a aggressive into the wall shooter and it is a noticable difference coming from my valley sitting background.

It has been a very nice experience and I am glad that I am doing it. To me these types of stretches in my training are priceless, so many times I get in competition mode and every weekend there is a shoot I want to win or be competitive at the national level in 3d so I can waste time messing around and I have to do things the way I am going to compete. My injury allowed me to take that step back and relax and just work on things.


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## bgbls

Padgett said:


> Exactly, you hit it on the nose.
> 
> I am doing everything the same fundamentally from my form to my aiming and my firing engine but by doing the things I went through above that sam uses allows me to do those things with a more aggressive approach.
> 
> I shot with fingers for 30 years and got my first cobra release in 2005 I believe and a d-loop, up till then I shot with a finger tab. From 2005 up until late 2014 early 2015 I was a valley sitter who touched the wall and just felt the bow holding weight. Then I finally worked on my draw length and began using preload into the wall but looking back on it I had been a valley sitter for over 30 years of shooting so I entered into the preload on the light side.
> 
> This fall I snapped my bicep tendon so I didn't get to shoot until early december I believe after recovering from surgery, that forced me to be a start up shooter and use the whole winter season as getting back into shooter shape and up to my normal level of shooting. Hence, I put winning on hold and just executed smooth shots. About a month ago is when I decided to go ahead and switch to a click hinge for the second half of the winter season and I also decided to allow myself to use the more aggressive method that Sam uses since I was still in get up to speed mode in my training. to me this is the first time ever that I have actually been a aggressive into the wall shooter and it is a noticable difference coming from my valley sitting background.
> 
> It has been a very nice experience and I am glad that I am doing it. To me these types of stretches in my training are priceless, so many times I get in competition mode and every weekend there is a shoot I want to win or be competitive at the national level in 3d so I can waste time messing around and I have to do things the way I am going to compete. My injury allowed me to take that step back and relax and just work on things.


Because of the healing bicep do you notice when you get stressed on target the bow will creep on you.


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## Dgb018

Tag for later


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## Padgett

Bqbls, no the healing of the bicep really has been a non issue and right now it is 100% perfect and I am not having any issues or concerns at all. 

In fact this weekend I stayed really strong on friday in the team shoot and shot 6 out of 10 12's and then on saturday my shooting allowed me to aim directly at almost every single 12 ring on a freakish hard semi pro course where I think only 4 of us shot up out of 75 shooters. I was seeing my distance really strong on saturday so my confidence level was high and it allowed me to draw back and just shoot strong shots and I pulled into the wall really solid and steady every target. 

My only execution issues were on sunday and they were confidence related, I wasn't seeing the numbers as well and was shooting some 8's out the bottom and the top on another really tough course and I allowed myself loose the ability to pick a number and then just shoot it really stong. I found myself coming to anchor and having trouble settling in on the 12 ring because of the lack of confidence in the distance and that caused me to not be as strong in the shot and then when I did execute I ended up very slightly pulling off to the side and firing a few times. On saturday I simply hit dead on every time where on sunday I got a couple of 8's when I picked a good number but missed by a inch or so to the side. 

Competing at a pretty high level is a multi layer thing and the fact that loosing confidence in your yardage can totally cause trouble with your execution is just part of the game but I have to be stronger mentally and just do what I do best and that is step up and pick a number and execute a strong confident shot. 

I will say that using a high amount of preload this weekend allowed me a much stronger feeling for the entire tournament than in the past and I am feeling really good about the decision to use this approach.


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