# Super important, the draw cycle



## Iowa shooter (Feb 23, 2013)

The draw cycle doesn't get discussed a lot. If the correct technique isn't used you will hurt your shoulders and joints over time, make it more difficult to use back tension, be out of alignment, etc.

Please discuss proper technique as it relates to target archery from muscles used to rotating upper body as you draw to height of elbows and shoulders etc. 

If the beginning of the shot(the draw cycle) is done wrong, the end result is probably not good either.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

Iowa shooter said:


> The draw cycle doesn't get discussed a lot. If the correct technique isn't used you will hurt your shoulders and joints over time, make it more difficult to use back tension, be out of alignment, etc.
> 
> Please discuss proper technique as it relates to target archery from muscles used to rotating upper body as you draw to height of elbows and shoulders etc.
> 
> If the beginning of the shot(the draw cycle) is done wrong, the end result is probably not good either.


Alistair, his thoughts on "The Front End".

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rNGJo77OAs8

Alistair, his thoughts on "Posture".

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rV2SP7PkpME&list=UUK5AqQF7nYbxfPe1iKNid4A

he talks about lordosis and kyphosis...flattening the lumbar S-curve. Try for a slight weight bias, weight more towards the forefoot, getting weight LIGHT on the heels.
Standard "ready stance" for other sports disciplines. MORE than 50% of your weight on the balls of the feet.

Alistair also talks about folks who HAVE to rock the upper body towards the RIGHT SIDE, for a right handed shooter.
Basically WEAK core muscles. Alistair demonstrates the DRAW motion with a rubber stretch band.

Alistair and his thoughts on "The Draw".
Simple, compact, efficient LINEAR movement of the release hand.
I call it the KITCHEN DRAWER SLIDE movement. The RELEASE hand (JUST PRETEND) is duct taped to a KITCHEN DRAWER SLIDE, so the RELEASE HAND
can ONLY move in a STRAIGHT LEVEL LINE...NO lifting both hands for the SKY DRAW style..JUST raise the BOW HAND to LEVEL, same height as the two shoulder joints
JUST raise the RELEASE HAND to the HEIGHT that keeps the ARROW DEAD LEVEL..
then,
the release hand, which is DUCT TAPED to a KITCHEN DRAWER SLIDE (PRETEND...OK)
and the RELEASE HAND can ONLY TRAVEL in a DEAD HOrizontal LINE,
and the ARROW IS DEAD LEVEL the ENTIRE time you pull the d-loop BACK to full draw.

Now,
Alistair demonstrates this with his bow, with NO ARROW loaded.

I don't recommended doing this with your release.
I recommend you LOAD AN ARROW, and stand directly in front of a target.

Otherwise,
I agree with what Alistair teaches,
I just describe it a little bit differently.


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## Fury90flier (Jun 27, 2012)

Iowa shooter said:


> The draw cycle doesn't get discussed a lot. If the correct technique isn't used you will hurt your shoulders and joints over time, make it more difficult to use back tension, be out of alignment, etc.
> 
> Please discuss proper technique as it relates to target archery from muscles used to rotating upper body as you draw to height of elbows and shoulders etc.
> 
> If the beginning of the shot(the draw cycle) is done wrong, the end result is probably not good either.


I haven't seen the vids as I'm at a client site and can't devote the time...but will comment on the above, though it may be moot.
There is no draw cycle that we can conclusively say is "proper". The main reason for this is directly related to our individual biomechanical/alignment or structure. About the only theing we can discuss is proper loading and unloading vs alignment.

For example, stance.
I have a different stance with my compound vs recurve. For recurve, it's much more open by comparision. This is due to a shoulder injury that prevents me from using a "classical" draw arm rotation. I have to rotate more with my back to get the alignment, if I don't use my back early on in the draw, I get a popping in my shoulder...not good.

On my compound setup I draw low then bring the whole rig up to anchor...this helps me keep my shoulders low. Also, helps to deal with the shoulder issue I have.

if others try the same draw style, they may collapse or they may find it easier to draw. I know that once I learned to really pull with the back, it helped smooth out the process and allow me to more easily drop my shoulders.


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## subconsciously (Aug 22, 2009)

Angular draw good. 
Linear draw bad.


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## Fury90flier (Jun 27, 2012)

why is drawing on target with your shoulder set bad?


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## subconsciously (Aug 22, 2009)

Front shoulder being set and drawing on target is fine. The draw arm side is angular. In order to draw linear - a straight line- is biomechanically wrong. To draw linear you would actually have to lean back to keep the striaght line. Some people actually do. The angular draw incorporates the Lan2 area sooner - which in turn leads to less shoulder injury (rotator cuff) and less fatigue. Now thats a fact.


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## Fury90flier (Jun 27, 2012)

I think I understand what you're saying though without a visual reference, it's a little difficult to "see".

As to the need to lean back, if you open your stance a little and rotate with hips and back at once as you draw- you don't lean. Watch Brady in how he draws- best image I can think of. After watching him and using a similar draw, my draw shoulder is much less irritated.


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## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

To me the biggest mistake most people make is extending their front arm to its final position first, this forces them to reach forward with the rear arm past the center of their core and then all of the pulling of the bow string is done with that arm. It totally allows the front half of the body to do absolutely nothing because the straight bone on bone contact of the front arm being extended takes care of the front half and the rear half has to do the entire job.

Now by raising your front arm about 1 foot above the spot you are going to hit moves the bow up and back closer to the center line of your core, now your back side and your front side are balanced on the front and the rear of your core body and when you expand your front side and rear side they work together to get the job done. The rear forearm and the front grip are above both shoulders and as they expand forwards and back they do so in a arc motion down to the back and forward to the front. These two actions form a very smooth draw cycle.

To me the worst draw cycles are the people who extend their front arm and then they draw with a low elbow where their forearm rubs against their chest inline with their peck muscle. I see many shooters at the novice level shooting 3d tournaments and a few high level shooters doing this but it is just bad.


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## subconsciously (Aug 22, 2009)

Fury90flier said:


> I think I understand what you're saying though without a visual reference, it's a little difficult to "see".
> 
> As to the need to lean back, if you open your stance a little and rotate with hips and back at once as you draw- you don't lean. Watch Brady in how he draws- best image I can think of. After watching him and using a similar draw, my draw shoulder is much less irritated.


You can watch Reo, Braden G., Cousins, Jesse, Brady Ellison, every Korean, and anybody Kisik lee coaches uses an angular draw.


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## subconsciously (Aug 22, 2009)

Padgett said:


> To me the worst draw cycles are the people who extend their front arm and then they draw with a low elbow where their forearm rubs against their chest inline with their peck muscle. I see many shooters at the novice level shooting 3d tournaments and a few high level shooters doing this but it is just bad.


Excellent example of linear draw.

Thanks Padgett


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

Fury90flier said:


> I think I understand what you're saying though without a visual reference, it's a little difficult to "see".
> 
> As to the need to lean back, if you open your stance a little and rotate with hips and back at once as you draw- you don't lean. Watch Brady in how he draws- best image I can think of. After watching him and using a similar draw, my draw shoulder is much less irritated.


Just for you.

The ANGULAR DRAW, by Reo.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

Fury90flier said:


> I think I understand what you're saying though without a visual reference, it's a little difficult to "see".
> 
> As to the need to lean back, if you open your stance a little and rotate with hips and back at once as you draw- you don't lean. Watch Brady in how he draws- best image I can think of. After watching him and using a similar draw, my draw shoulder is much less irritated.


Soo,
to differentiate from the SKY DRAW...

FIRST and LAST photo back to back...this is NOT a sky draw.
STARTING and ENDING arrow angles are very similar.


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## dua lam pa (May 29, 2014)

nuts&bolts said:


> Soo,
> to differentiate from the SKY DRAW...
> 
> FIRST and LAST photo back to back...this is NOT a sky draw.
> STARTING and ENDING arrow angles are very similar.


 He takes up a lot of real estate on line


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## TNMAN (Oct 6, 2009)

The draw that Alistair shows is not the draw most good compound archers are using today. 30 years ago, yeah, fairly common. The difference is the cams and higher peak weight now used---that, and all the wrecked shoulders that most of us that shot 30 years ago now have.


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## montigre (Oct 13, 2008)

dua lam pa said:


> He takes up a lot of real estate on line


That he does, but he is also very considerate of where those stabs are in relation to other shooters. I shot a couple of practice ends at Nationals a couple years ago between he and Logan and he always asked if I had enough room after we returned from the line. However, the two of them had me laughing so much, I was finding it difficult to concentrate....lol!


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## dua lam pa (May 29, 2014)

montigre said:


> That he does, but he is also very considerate of where those stabs are in relation to other shooters. I shot a couple of practice ends at Nationals a couple years ago between he and Logan and he always asked if I had enough room after we returned from the line. However, the two of them had me laughing so much, I was finding it difficult to concentrate....lol!


 funny and 100% positive , left a lasting impression on me 
Made me change my mind set when competing as well.


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## Joe Schnur (Mar 22, 2012)

Yes but he is very good at tucking it up due to his ability to completely turn it on and off between ends. I saw him yuck it up behind me at Nats and could not maintain my concentration also got in the head of the pro he was razing. His mental game is amazing


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

Padgett said:


> To me the worst draw cycles are the people who extend their front arm and then they draw with a low elbow where their forearm rubs against their chest inline with their peck muscle. I see many shooters at the novice level shooting 3d tournaments and a few high level shooters doing this but it is just bad.


Bad for everyone... Fifteen tall wall beyond our 60 yard target butt and people manage to get arrows over it, but "I ain't sky drawing." Ceiling lights 12 feet up busted at the archery shop, but "I ain't sky drawing." Arrow sticking through the roof of the archery shop, but "I ain't sky drawing." Tried to tell one person he was doing it wrong, but then the argument started.


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## dua lam pa (May 29, 2014)

Joe Schnur said:


> Yes but he is very good at tucking it up due to his ability to completely turn it on and off between ends. I saw him yuck it up behind me at Nats and could not maintain my concentration also got in the head of the pro he was razing. His mental game is amazing


Earplugs


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

This afternoon while the wife was out raiding the stores I tried drawing like Reo Wilde. Shoulder hurt like Hell. 3 times of that and I said; "Screw this!" I hold dead on, pin on the target, draw elbow right at eye level, bow arm somewhat out, engage back, release arm comes straight back nice and smooth and no pain!


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## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

Anytime you try something new you are going to use new muscles and it can potentially cause pain, by the way you are describing your current draw cycle you are using a completely different muscle group to do the job. You would have to work up to it by possibly using the new draw cycle every fifth shot for a few weeks and then maybe using it twice for every 5 shots and allow the mucsles to build up.


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

Wasn't the muscles. Right smack in the shoulder joint. Felt on fire. Could be due to old throwing injury.


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## Fury90flier (Jun 27, 2012)

Tendon related injury?


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

In the shoulder joint, cartilage. Shoulder has a clunk in it. Doctors X-rayed, give me this shot deep in the joint. Not bad enough for surgery and if they did perform surgery recovery was something of 14 months..... So I live with the clunk, no pain. No clunk if doing normal stuff. The way I come to full draw I hit anchor almost immediately. So smooth that I have to slow me down cause me ready to fire. You can tell I loved my English teacher.

Reo, he has everything up. 1st and 2nd pic, he's actually looking under his scope to the target. Terry Wunderle fan here; Put pin on target and draw.


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## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

Yeah, if you are dealing with a joint injury then finding the form weather it is drawing or actually at anchor that allows you to shoot pain free is a very important thing.


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## Fury90flier (Jun 27, 2012)

SonnyThomas said:


> In the shoulder joint, cartilage. Shoulder has a clunk in it. Doctors X-rayed, give me this shot deep in the joint. Not bad enough for surgery and if they did perform surgery recovery was something of 14 months..... So I live with the clunk, no pain. No clunk if doing normal stuff. The way I come to full draw I hit anchor almost immediately. So smooth that I have to slow me down cause me ready to fire. You can tell I loved my English teacher.
> 
> Reo, he has everything up. 1st and 2nd pic, he's actually looking under his scope to the target. Terry Wunderle fan here; Put pin on target and draw.



If you do the shoulder exercises...you know, arms out rotating in a circular motion...do you feel any cracking/poping? Just curious because of my shoulder injuries/problems. While in my normal shooting or work in general, no gravel feeling but it does if I do the "proper" warm up exercises-lol.


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

Padgett said:


> Yeah, if you are dealing with a joint injury then finding the form weather it is drawing or actually at anchor that allows you to shoot pain free is a very important thing.


I've drawn my bow the same way for years and well before I injured my shoulder. The way Reo is drawing...it ain't natural.. Look at the first pic of Reo. Take his hat off and the top of his foreman is level with the top of his head. Look at his release hand to his eyes. Look at where his peep is. Look at his bow arm, hand, way up. And then look at the last picture. That's one heck of a lot of movement. Works for him, fine.


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## Pete53 (Dec 5, 2011)

i am a right hand archer my left shoulder got so bad i had major surgery,recovery was long and horrible,but now its alot better but not new.i now purchased on archery talk a used hoyt vantage elite plus 30-40 lb. bow with spirals to target shoot indoors, this 40 lb. weight bow i can handle much easier and is alot more fun to shoot . if you have any shoulder problem go to a lighter poundage bow ,having surgery is not worth it save your shoulders.Pete53


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## subconsciously (Aug 22, 2009)

SonnyThomas said:


> I've drawn my bow the same way for years and well before I injured my shoulder. The way Reo is drawing...it ain't natural.. Look at the first pic of Reo. Take his hat off and the top of his foreman is level with the top of his head. Look at his release hand to his eyes. Look at where his peep is. Look at his bow arm, hand, way up. And then look at the last picture. That's one heck of a lot of movement. Works for him, fine.


Still a good angular draw. I don't know of any top level archers that draw in a linear fashion.


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

subconsciously said:


> Still a good angular draw. I don't know of any top level archers that draw in a linear fashion.


Don't know if linear. Elbow is just above my release hand and release hand is below eye, but in approx. angular alignment of my anchor. Just draw with back muscles to hit anchor. Pin might wander around on the target, but stays on the target. Being left handed, left eye dominant and shooting right handed might be some of the wandering. Left eye wants to see until I get oriented aiming and then right eye takes over. Guns go in left hand, bows go in left hand. No confusion


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## ron w (Jan 5, 2013)

the cause of shoulder injury in drawing a bow repeatedly is from not using the right muscles to initiate the draw. just as the muscles that are used to creat "back tension", these same muscle can be introduced to the draw cycle right from the start of drawing the bow. including these muscles,...you "rhomboids" as the main drawing muscles, supports a firm and controlled arrangement of you shoulder structure as you draw, and eliminates the need for the "conversion to back tension", that some shooters say they have problems with as they get to full draw and start settling in for the shot.
as Alistar, is doing, he is utilizing his "rhomboids" to draw his bow, by starting his draw from that elevated position, he is putting the rhomboids in a tensed condition that includes them in the drawing process. 
you will find that once you learn to do this, draw weight becomes much easier to handle because you are drawing your bow with a much larger muscle group and fatigue from drawing your bow over extended periods of shooting is much eliminated. simply put...imagine trying to run with no "butt muscles" !. 
when we don't include those rhomboids, were are essentially "trying to pull our shoulders out of joint" as we draw. when the rhomboids are included, the shoulder joint is fully encased in the firm musculature, that supports the stress of drawing the bow.


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## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

Sonny Thomas I hate to tell you but reo and jesse and braden and levi all use this draw cycle and there is a reason because it is the best way, decades of doing it your way or your injuries have forced you to only do it your way and I can't help those issues. I can draw with any of the methods all day long but the reo method is by far the easiest way to smoothly draw a bow with little to no percieved effort.


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## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

I shouldn't say it is the best way, I should say it is my favorite way day in and day out shooting tens of thousands of arrows with absolutely no pain ever. Sure when I have a deer coming in and I have the bow extended out in its direction I totally draw with my rear half because it has much less movement for hunting. I even do it sometimes when on a 3d course usually when I have a downhill shot or uphill shot that is weird feeling and not on level ground but the moment I do that style of drawing I notice it imediately.


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## coltd65 (Aug 1, 2012)

Tagged


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## Praeger (Jan 7, 2011)

coltd65 said:


> Tagged


You can subscribe to the thread. Easier and doesn't clutter up the thread.


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

ron w said:


> the cause of shoulder injury in drawing a bow repeatedly is from not using the right muscles to initiate the draw. .





Padgett said:


> Sonny Thomas I hate to tell you but reo and jesse and braden and levi all use this draw cycle and there is a reason because it is the best way, decades of doing it your way or your injuries have forced you to only do it your way and I can't help those issues. I can draw with any of the methods all day long but the reo method is by far the easiest way to smoothly draw a bow with little to no percieved effort.


One more time. I never experienced pain drawing until day before yesterday when I tried that over the eye sight method of Reo's. 50 years old when I returned to archery, late December of 1999. No less than 15,000 to 18,000 shots per year for the last, say 14 years. 65 years old and still placing and winning at club 3Ds (Adult Class, not Senior) and ASA State sanctioned events (Super Senior). Bow set to 55 pounds and feels like a rubber band, that easy. Just to make sure, typing this, I got down my Ole War Horse, 2000 UltraTec set to 62 pounds. Pin on target, drew. Felt a little heavy, but then I've been using 55 pounds since summer of 2010 to stay within the ASA speed limit. 
Retired since December of 2003 - advised by surgeon and company doctor. No exercise program, maybe walk a fast mile every other day - without stopping to light a cigarette


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