# crossbow yes or no



## jbteal

Tennessee wants to let hunters use crossbows during main archery season .Is this a good idea or not.My opinion is no.If you dont want this to happen go to twra web sight and let them know.


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## TJ_Hoss

*Kind of selfish, dont ya think.*

Some people who love to bow hunt get injured and cant use a regular bow. I know a pastor who loves to hunt put lost his arm. Needless to say he has to use a crossbow. That would suck if he had to bow hunt during a "special" season. Or what if you lost a limb? you would want to hunt. 

People need to start working together instead of being divided. gun/bow/crossbow/spear, whatever. just hunt


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## LetThemGrow

*Very selfish I think...*

that you would deny someone the chance to hunt with the weapon of their choice. How would you feel if you hunted with a recurve and someone else hunted with a compound? Most people accept that as personal preference, yet for some reason have a hatred of crossbows? Why? I invite anyone to give me legitimate reasons why crossbows should not be allowed...I would really like to hear only from those who have actual experience with a crossbow, not just repeating the " 60 yard shots" fable. I hunted with a crossbow for 2 years while rehabilitating my rotator cuff from a hockey fight...and I was so glad to get back to the bow. Ever lug something 2-3times heavier through the woods? Did you ever hear them shoot, like a 22 subsonic...Anyone who realizes the speed of sound realizes that quiet is more important than speed. The only advantage I felt was that I did not have to make movement and draw the bow on a deer...it was cocked and ready to go. 

Would appreciate hearing from some intelligent sportsmen on this issue, it is a hot one here in PA too...


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## Targetnut

The poll did not say anything about disabled hunters.

There is no question that a crossbow is a viable weapon that can be used to harvest game animals.

But I believe that the differences in shooting a crossbow should keep them from being used during regular archery season (except by truly disabled hunters). 

I would have no problem with allowing them during black powder or general firearms season. 

I think also that there needs to be a requirement for weapon specific hunter education. Like a special certificate for firearms, Archery, Crossbows, etc. No exceptions or "grandfathering" either.


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## FLBowHunter2

If disabled, I say yes. If able bodied, no. A neighbor of mine has a chronic lower back condition and, after a near act of congress, was able to get a permit to use a cross bow during archery season(s) on our WMA's. I have no problem with that.
However, I am not able to put a scope on my bow nor am I able to add a device that holds my bow at full draw so why should I be held to a higher standard than an able bodied hunter with a cross bow?
I agree with the gentleman that said to let them use them in the muzzleloader or general gun seasons. You're basically shooting a rifle or at least it's very simular.
Just my opinion.


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## tjozz

*Just my opinion...*

i own and hunt with both. i use the crossbow during firearms season. in my opinion it has no real clearcut advantage other than being ready to shoot quickly once cocked and being able to use it with gloves and warmer clothing on. my hunting bow will smoke an arrow considerably faster than my crossbow and is much quieter. but i cant shoot well all suiited up for regular season hunting. i use the crossbow in place of my gun. my fear is that many more rifle hunters will run out and by a crossbow to take advantage of more hunting time and our nice peacfull time in the woods will become like rifle season with a bunch of guys in orange crashing about in the woods. imagine still hunting with your bow and you run into a buch of rifle huntin buddies putting on a drive...... it may happen ive heard it mentioned. i like rifle hunters and have nothing against any dedicated ethical hunter
but there are to many rifle hunters that think they can just pick up a cross bow and it will be just like takin out the '06. 
i think the setup (at least in pa) should remain as it has in the past. i know several people that hunt with disabled permits. they arent teribly hard to get if you are legitimatly disabled. i have no problem with them. i am just worried about those that see it as an easy way to get into archey season....

ok ill stop now


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## BingoFlyer

In MIchigan you can hunt with a crossbow if you are permantly disabled durring the archery season.

You can also hunt with a X-bow durring the rifle season and I have no argument with either of these options but will argue against fi they would put this into the archery season without a disability.


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## SPECTRE

I voted yes....but again on the disabled contingent.

I do think however that crossbows with scopes will appeal more to the "gun hunter" variety and may tend to cause unethical shots......i.e. shooting 60 yards or through brush. Heck, we sell em like crazy and almost every purchaser asks us to boresight it when we sell it, LOL.

There's just something special about getting to within 20 yards of the critter you're after.

It's not about the killing to me anymore, just the thrill of the chase.

But if you're disabled, and it gets you in the woods....then by all means, have at it.


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## clever_guy

It would be interesting to find out the rational of the Tennessee wildlife control board (or whatever state body is the authority) wants to add crossbows to archery season. Are there enough bowhunting licences being sold state wide for adequate animal conservation/management? Are they just trying to increase the pool of bowhunters so they can get more revenue from licences? or other reasons...

Looks to me like more and more states and provinces are going to combined bow & crossbow hunting seasons.

-CG


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## Flbowhntr01

I voted yes .. in Arkansas you can hunt with a crossbow and out of all the deer killed with archery equipment crossbows make up less than 5% of the deer killed .. the only advantage to them is you dont have to draw on the deer .. the range on them is not as good as a compound and no where near as accurate or quiet as a compound ..






hunt like there is no tommorrow


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## Guest

We were told 30 years ago that adding crossbows would kill all archery seasons, well after numerous increases in season lengths and additional tags we are still waiting for the sky to fall, this is probaly the biggest non issue in bowhunting.


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## clever_guy

hoyt_pro;

"I do think however that crossbows with scopes will appeal more to the "gun hunter" variety and may tend to cause unethical shots......"

Crossbows or not you always get a percentage of bad hunters. I think the only way to reduce that percentage is through hunter education, wildlife enforcement and engaging the hunters so that as a group they have a "culture" that encourages good hunting practices.

-CG


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## 3dthunder

*X bows*

I think that they are ok for disabled individuals and they do let more people enjoy the sport and woods than if they are not alowed. I also think that the VDGIF should moniter them a little closer.


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## robk

we have done this type of poll for many years now and it still runs the same and some us like it and know it won;t hurt the regular archery season and others think there is a disadvantage to the archer. truth is most states in the next 10 years will probably have it legal for anyone who is disabled and has proof of this disability will be able to use the xbow. if you can draw a bow then you should but for those who are disabled i see no problems with having one and using it during regular archery season
rob k


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## LetThemGrow

*attitudes*

Gotta love the attitudes expressed above: "more hunters in the woods will mess me up" (selfish), "why should an able-bodied person have a crossbow if I can't?" (selfish). Some of you were right on the money-the crossbow will not ruin archery. In a time when hunter numbers are declining, why would we want to turn someone away?? Self-righteousness will ruin hunting as we know it, not crossbows!!!

To quote a famous statesman (think key and lightning) "Assuredly we must all hand together or we will all hand seperately".


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## YeOldFart

I would have to say for a disabled hunter yes, allow crossbows. I also do not see anything wrong with allowing older hunters 65 and older use them. 

Here in Wisconsin it is now legal for hunters 65 and older to use them. Most of the guys that I know that are eligable to use them because of their age are still using a bow but there are a few who are up in their 70s that being able to hunt with a crossbow is allowing them to still hunt.


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## Hasbro

So, Arrowhead, anyone that has an opinion that is not consistent with your is selfish? 

Why are you so set on fiddling with the bowhunting regulations?

I smell a flame war!

I voted NO.....for able bodied archers.

I notice that no vote for the disabled was available on the poll?!?
That could sqew the results!

I would be in favor of a seperated crossbow season....even if the time was taken from the regular bow season.


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## docteur

I am still wrestling with this issue. I really have mixed thoughts on the whole subject. I have no problem with the x-bow as a hunting weapon. I think the conflict comes when you put it in the regular archery season. There must be some reason why most of the states have set aside a special season for bows. Assuming that the reasons relate to the difficulty of mastering the equipment, and the natural impairments of a hand drawn, short range weapon, somewhere it has to be decided what the limits on that equipment have to be. I think that a weapon that can be pre-drawn, bench rested on a log or some other support, scope sighted, and propel an arrow with more than twice the force than the average archer can even draw, might just be crossing over the line a bit. I suspect that if we let the definition of "archery" become blurred by a weapons as radically different as crossbows, we may eventually lose the current special benefits that we archers now enjoy. Some day, I fully expect to see muzzleloaders allowed to take over pieces of the archery season, in fact here in NYS, that has already happened. I know there are other states that already have overlapping muzzleloader and bow seasons. I think the addition of crossbows into the archery season will just hasten along this sharing until it finally occurs to the various DNR's that there really is no reason to have a special archery season. As the frustration over the inability to control the deer herds increase, we can expect the DNR's to feel pressure to use our premium archery season in a more productive fashion. I don't think we want to encourage that kind of thinking by liberalizing our archery definitions to include shoulder fired weapons such as the crossbow.

Now maybe this kind of development is fine with some people, but I personally, jealously guard all the special treatment that we archers have received and I am always a bit suspicious of any radical changes that might impact these priviledges. That may be a bit selfish..........so be it!

Doc


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## Flbowhntr01

from reading what most of you have said I am goin to take most of you have never shot a xbow.. they may shoot 60 yards but the chances of hitting and killing a deer at that range are slim .. one theyloud and no where near as accurate as a compoud ..I have the option to hunt with either but prefer a bow but with the number of hunters decreasing (which means less money for game preservation ) they need to do what they can to increase the number of hunters .. If you get a chance to shoot a xbow go ahead and do it and see what kind of groups you get when you start getting to longer ranges (40 yards +) you will see that a compound is a much more efficient weapon and stay with it .. I work in an archery shop and most people who start with xbows eventually go to compound bows.. we are also a check station and last year we checked 24 archery deer only 3 of those were with xbow .. i think you should be able to hunt with either as we are all hunters and there is no advantage to using a xbow!!!!!!





Brian


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## mobowhunter

*All depends on situation*

All depends on if the hunter has any disablities. I take a buddies 11 year old boy with CP hunting once and awhile, for him to be able to hunt it as precious as life itself. We can't shut doors to those want to enjoy the outdoors and don't have the capibilites. I don't however approve of physically able people using crossbows, unless it's in rifle season. Main reason for my thoughts is because I believe that there will be alot of crippled deer due to bad shot selection. Resembles a rifle to much, and I feel that the gun hunters will act upon instinct, throw up and shoot, at least down here that is the way it is. I did have the opportunity to hunt with a crossbow, even bought one, when I tore my rotator cuff, but just couldn't bring myself to doing it.


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## Larry Rooks

Disabled hunter, yes, I am all for it. Those that are able to shoot
a conventional bow, NO. Some take to the crossbow because they are too lazy to practice with a recurve or compound, beleiving that practice is not required with a crossbow. Seen in
time and time again since it was legalized in Ga two seasons ago.
Most fot ehr crossbows sold are now in the pawn shops as those that went that way thought they were being able to use some sort of super bow, extended range, NOPE, faster, NOPE, and
better killing power (NOPE). Ease of shooting, yes, just aim and pull the trigger is the only advantage unless you are disabled.
But you do have to wonder just how disabled some are. Cocking
a 150-200 lb corssbow is no simple task, not as easy as drawing
a 60 lb bow. Back up shots, not hardly, as it is very hard to cock a crossbow for a follow up shot in a lock on deer stand, even a climber. Danger factor with a corssbow, YES. I have seen fingers
ripped off by the string going forward, hunters fault, not the cross
bows, but s danger factor. I have seen these fools climb into a
stand and pull up a COCKED and LOADED crossbow aimed in their direction, also the hunters fault but still a danger factor. How many compounds have you seen go off? It is all a simple fact of common sense, but how many will use it. One intance, a hunter thought he had his crossbow fully cocked, loaded an arrow
and then pinned his foot the stand, crossbow was not fully ingaged and went off. Another shot himself in the arm while pulling up a cocked and loaded drossbow, the hunters fault again
and an ignorant one at that but it is a danger factor that is not there with conventional archery equipment. Sort of like the new
PRIMITIVE WEAPONS season, many fuss that a high powered scope shoule be allowed, making their high dollow muzzle loader into a more conventional rifle with todays standards. Is the
new scope PRIMITIVE WEAPONS or just something to give the hunter more range and ease of killing


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## CWG

Check my sig.

I didnt really read this thread, just wanted to inject "how dare anyone suggest a crossbow isn't suitable for hunting"
That, and for the short time I was into blackpowder hunting the debate about "real" traditional blackpowder vs. the modern pellets, sabots, ignition blah blah and all stages in between.
Those who argue against using a crossbow are demented and kidding themselves.
Same as traditional archery vs. modern compound bows and synthetics. Pfffft.

I'll never go back to crossbow unless its either that or not bowhunting.
I never, never ever would have gotten into archery if it weren't for the crossbow. Ever. 

CWG

edit: I just read the entire thread...some of this is so painful to read I need some kind of code to decifer it. LOL, spellcheck is too hard to use, I dont, but at least RE-READ what you typed and get the obvious ones - there the smiley face so I dont hurt anyones feelings


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## Archeryboy

Go ahead and let people use a crossbow during archery season. Many arguments have been made against it, but I can make the same argument agaisnt gun hunters. 

No one has give turn valid reasons not to allow crossbows.

Points that were made agaisnt it....

1> People who use crossbows are lazy......I could say the same thing about Gun hunters, aks the majority of gun hunters how often they shoot thier guns, most will say i might put a thru bullets thru it a week or so before season. But most don't they simply sight it in once and believe its all good year to year.

2> Crossbow user take questionable shoots....Yeah well I can find at least 10 people in my area that took questionable shoot with their compounds and wounded deer that were not recovered. I'll bet everyone can find at lleast 5 in thier area with no problems.

3> I don't like gun hunting and wish they would do away with it, I prefer only to hunt with a bow. Crossbows are to much like guns they are so accurate. Not true all weapons are accurate.....depending on the shooter and the experiance the shooter has with the weapon of choice.

4> If we compound archer look down upon crossbow users, It s wrong just like traddition archers look down on us wheelly bow user. It wrong to look down on or own people (hunters). We should ban togather to make sure we all have the right to hunt . No matter what weapon we choose.


Main point is the only peopel we should look down on are those that use the weapons of choice in correctly and uneithically.

I personally don't like rifle hunting/slug hunting, while I would never want to take away from my fellow (gun) hunters, my selfish side quietlly wishes they would all go bowhunting(compound,tradtional,or crossbow) instead of rifle hunting. 

Now that would be heaven........No loud firearms sounds while I'm up in my treestand ....just the peace and quite sounds of nature.


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## CWG

""Yeah well I can find at least 10 people in my area that took questionable shoot with their compounds and wounded deer that were not recovered. I'll bet everyone can find at lleast 5 in thier area with no problems.""


Oh hell, yes, I found on the second week of archery season a beautiful 8 point with an arrow in its ass- dead on my land. It wasnt a crossbow bolt, it was an expandable carbon arrow.
Asswipes took a butt shot?!?! It wasnt mature either, just a perfect symetrical 17" 8 point. What a shame. I'm guessing it ran a mile or two, in pain, biting all the while at that arrow. What an ass, and I would beech slap the moron that did it.


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## Archeryboy

CWG,

Exactly, it doesn't have to do with the weapon it has to do with the unethically idiot behind the trigger/string.


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## Crusher

> I would have to say for a disabled hunter yes, allow crossbows. I also do not see anything wrong with allowing older hunters 65 and older use them.


Disable hunters-yes!
During firearms season-yes!
Adding a new season/extended season yes!
Over a certain qualifying age-yes!

During regular archery season-NO!


I think it really depends on the area. Some areas can support more people in the woods. Where I hunt, there is more land that CAN NOT be hunted that land that can be hunted. People are searching all over the place to find land to hunt. I like regular archery season in my area because I am able to HUNT it. When firearms season comes along, it is a free-for-all with more hunters than what can be supported by the land they are hunting. It would be safe to say in my area, during shot gun season, there are roughly 15-20 hunters per square mile...way too much because of small plots of land (under 100 acres) that are all interconnected by different owners.

I really don't want that to happen to archery season in my area.

Crossbows will only put firearm hunters in the woods during the regular archery season. Please don't add to the mythes that the addition of crossbows will encourage more hunters...that is so far from the truth! Those who want to hunt already do in some form.


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## robk

i have said this before guys and i will say it now. my dad couldn't hunt if it weren't for a crossbow. his arthritis and problems from old shoulder injuries have put him on the shelf. and the fact he is turning 7 this year and is able to get around better than i do but his old body and old injuries make it impossible for him to hunt with a conventional bow. 
if your ready for the crossbow then you need to have a a dr's certificate or the over 65 thing for the elder statesmen and women sounds like a great idea for all involved. 
i don;t see a reason to belittle anyone over their stance it is our right as hunters to havwe our opinions but i think bashing someone for their opinion isn't the rigth thing to do. 
as big a pain as is it to get my dad set up i am glad he can hunt with me and if not for the crossbow i wouldn't havemy friend to hunt with me. just my 2 cents worth
rob k


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## Larry Rooks

No one ever said that all hunters were ethical and used good judgement, regardless of what they shoot. Shooting deer in the butt with any weapon is STUPID. Shooting deer at ranges that you are not capable of making a clean kill is STUPID, regardless of weapon. Those, we will have to put up with every day and there is nothing we can do to change it, some fools will be in the woods
regardless Regardless of weapon, PRACTICE is needed. I
agree there is less practice needed with a scoped rifle at 25 ayrds than there is a bow, but you still need to know that the ifle is hitting dead on before you carry it to the woods, and some will not even fire a shot before going to the stand. Heck, I have bowhunters comeing in the day before opening day, just brought their bows out of the attic and need new strings etc. How much practice time you reckon they will get before they get in the stand the next morning before daylight.


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## Mudpuppy

Having lived in Arkansas most of my life, I would have to agree with Flbowhntr01 and Archeryboy. Let them hunt, disabled or not. I can remember when they started talking about allowing the crossbows in Arkansas and boy what a fuss. But guess what it did not hurt anything. Like Flbowhntr01 said less than 5 % of the deer are killed with a crossbow. This subject is like Compound bows verses the Traditional bows. Everyone thinks they are right. I think everyone has the right to hunt as long as it is done legally. As far as I go well.....I started out on a recurve way back when and then I stopped. Then a few years later I got a compound bow. It required more time keeping it tuned than anything else. I stopped archery again. Then Arkansas allowed crossbows... so I got one. Used it for a while. Boy, this was more of a chore to use than the old compound was. So I stopped archery briefly again. Then I got another compound bow and another and another and now I'm getting into Longbows. Go figure????? Oh I still like my compound bow but if it weren't for the crossbow experience I might not have gotten back into Archery. If nothing else it was a good lesson learned. And besides this day in age I think all hunters need to stick together regardless of what we use to harvest game.


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## rcd567

I vote yes. The crossbow is nothing like a firearm. Your compound actually has more KE and is a better weapon but if people want to use a crossbow I say why not? Fords, Chevys, and Dodges seem to kill more deer than anything else. I'd like to see a few more hunters, there's strength in numbers. I hunt private land with controlled access so its not a huge deal to me.


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## LetThemGrow

*ATTN: HASBRO*

Have you personally shot a crossbow? Have you personally seen deer that were wounded with a crossbow? I respect everyones opinion, don't consider everyone selfish. I do believe, though, that anyone who says that their particular form/method is acceptable and judges another is selfish. I respect your right to use the weapon of your choice, and don't understand why you would not do the same for others??

Good input, fellows.


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## PA Deer Chaser

Pennsylvania is having this same debate.

Crossbows are allowed for disabled hunters during regular archery seasons, and I think this is great.

If you have ever been in the woods on the first day of Deer season in PA, you know all too well that there is an orange suit behind every tree. I am very concerned that our archery seasons will become similar if xbows are permitted for all.

Perhaps that is selfish. So be it. I want my sons to be able to have the same archery hunting experience I have had. I want them to enjoy the peace and serenity of a PA fall morning. I want them to be able to walk to their treestand in the morning without having to worry about someone already being in it or having 15 hunters within 50 yards of them at first light.


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## concept

*crossbow*

Well,each to their own.In the past as today, we as hunters are our own worst foe.We set and complain about the other guy,hunt with dogs dont hunt with dogs,only stick bow hunters are real hunters,crossbows are like guns and dont belong in archery.in the end when we have cut us all up into little special groups,and nobody can hunt,will we realize that as long as they are a hunter we are better off.
divide an conquer
the anti hunters are watching


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## PA Deer Chaser

Good point, Concept.

For me, it is an issue of inviting too many hunters into the woods that would not otherwise be there. I could be very wrong about this, but if I am right, it will be too late when we find out. PA has a very heavy hunter population as it is. Archery season is the least crowded option out of all the crowded seasons. We already have to wear and/or display flor orange during a good part of the season. Add a few more hunters to the woods and it will be head to toe pumpkin suits.

The only reason to allow all hunters to use xbows is to get more hunters in the woods than are already there.

It is also a matter of drawing a line in choice of weapon. Why not allow M16's and AK47's in firearms season? Maybe someone wants to hunt with a howitzer. Should we let him? How about laser sights and night vision scopes?

Part of the challenge of hunting deer with a bow is reaching full draw unnoticed. An xbow hunter doesn't have that challenge. It takes more physical conditioning and practice to be proficient with a bow than an xbow. Sure, shooting an xbow is a challenge, but it is not an equal challenge.


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## Targetnut

Hmm, Louder and less accurate, What happens when a deer jumps when this noisey thing goes off? And you can't hold a good group with it either? Seems like these things would increase the likelyhood of a bad hit, resulting in a wounded deer that was not recoverable. You guys say that less than 5% of archery deer are taken with a crossbow. I wonder if there has been a study of the percentage of deer that are wounded and not recovered?


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## Perfectionist

*Crossbows in Delaware*

The use of crossbows during regular archery season creates some issues in Delaware. A lot of hunting takes place on public and state owned land, which is open to the public during archery season. Many of the designated hunting areas are within 20 yards from a main trail. 

Since crossbows have a higher potential for accidental release, the chance of accident is increased. The reality is that the number of accidental injuries is probably lower, but the potential is there (you have to be more deliberate drawing a 70 poind bow as opposed to a five pound trigger on a crossbow).

That being said, Delaware provides special stands and locations for handicapped shooters. Crossbows are allowed during regular archery season. During shotgun season, the trails are closed to the public to avoid accidents.


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## Hasbro

ATTN:Arrowhead

Yes Iv'e owned and shot crossbows.....Was shooting grapefruit sized groups in 10 min... good weapon....I personally don't want them in regular bow season.

PS, calling peoples opinons selfish doesn't sound respectful to me.

Hasbro


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## SilentHntr.

Plan on working with some disabled hunters who plan on hunting with crossbows.

They can not pull back a compound bow but do not want to use a gun.

Many hunted with bows before their disabilities. They should have the chance.

Any ethical way of harvesting an animal is ok with me. Try hunting with a crossbow it is not as easy as you think.


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## clever_guy

docteur;

"I suspect that if we let the definition of "archery" become blurred by a weapons as radically different as crossbows, we may eventually lose the current special benefits that we archers now enjoy. Some day, I fully expect to see muzzleloaders allowed to take over pieces of the archery season...I know there are other states that already have overlapping muzzleloader and bow seasons. I think the addition of crossbows into the archery season will just hasten along this sharing until it finally occurs to the various DNR's that there really is no reason to have a special archery season. "

So you are thinking something like:

"...True moderation in the defense of political liberties is indeed a difficult thing: pretending to want fair shares for all, every man raises himself by depressing his neighbour; our anxiety to avoid oppression leads us to practice it ourselves; the injustice we repel, we visit in turn upon others, as if there were no choice except either to do it or to suffer it" (Livy)... 

-CG


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## p8ntballnryan

who cares....all fights like this do is hurtin the community from the inside.


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## docteur

This whole debate has started me wondering why archers have a special season. What is the purpose and thinking behind giving us archers, not only a special season, but the premier time slot......pre-rut & rut?

Does anybody know the official (DNR) reasoning behind this special priviledge. Perhaps that could help settle the argument about what weapons should be allowed.

Another interesting question on the subject: should crossbows be allowed in the freestyle division of all competitive archery tournaments? Perhaps the answer to this question could help with all the arguments about the advantages and disadvantages of the crossbow that we've been reading here.

H-m-m-m??? Anybody????

Doc


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## p8ntballnryan

it's a cross BOW shooting a short arrow...i.e. a bolt! sounds like archery equipmetn to me. Why shouldn't it be allowed to be used in archery season?

ya'll say it'll make people think they can do bolder things than with a bow and end up wounding animals, etc. Look around folks...hate to say it but it happens all the time. It's apart of being a responsible hunter...knowing the limits of you and your equipment...it's just like takin 50 yard shots on deer. Potential for accidental release? come on guys...no pully no shooty. It's the same case with guns. AS far as accuracy goes...the equipment will always be more accurate than the shooter. We shot a cheap barnett crossbow off the rifle bench at 20 yards and had all arrows touching in one hole. 

You honestly think it's gonna make that big of a difference in hunting wether it's in archery or gun seasons? nope...


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## p8ntballnryan

lol..i think it's to give us a better shot at getting an animal...during gun season it seems to me to be harder to find game. Hunting at the beginning of the season will increase your odds cuz the animals are in a conditioned state as they seem to get during gun season. 


that's my thought...


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## gollie15

*Re: attitudes*

To quote a famous statesman (think key and lightning) "Assuredly we must all hang together or we will all hang seperately". [/B][/QUOTE] 

I voted " yes ". 
I don't own a crossbow nor have I ever shot one, but I refuse to deny someone access to hunting, just because I don't believe in their methods ( Legal ) of harvesting game.

Don't give the anti's a chance to get their foot in the door, cause once they do, you'll never get it closed again.


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## LX_Shooter

Well my son will be turning 7 this month and he will be going hunting with me this fall.

Guess what he will carry a crossbow(with me of course)

He has a compound and shoots it very well, but with are reg's he has to pull 45#'s tp be legal and he just cant get that yet..

But thank God we live in a state were he can use a crossbow instead of a gun if he so choose's..


Crossbows have been legal in AR for a while now with no effect...like stated before the kills vs compounds is lower...

And no one has gave a GOOD reason to say no to them....

My God if it can put people into the woods whay not...Like before I think "selfish" is a big part of it....

BTW pic inclosed of my sons weapon of choice..Just have to figure how to get it there......


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## docteur

Gollie-

I don't think anyone is trying to deny a crossbow a hunting weapon. The original question related to crossbows in _Archery season_.

I think we need to understand why archers have a unique special season. I mean, what was the DNR's thinking when they gave archers their own season. That answer could help decide what weapons are really appropriate for the season. The one thing I worry a bit about is that if we continue to expand the definition of archery, we may see that "special season" drift away and disappear. As I stated above, NY and a few other states have already co-mingled muzzleloaders with bows for part of our season. This may only be the beginning. 

Doc


----------



## clever_guy

LX_Shooter;

Now that is one stink'in cool little Ballista! Did you make it or buy it?

-CG


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## BUCKSTER

LX Shooter,

I gotta used deer dolly we could rig up for that crossbow contraption 

I say used but ya know I'm not sure it ever hauled a deer out.....


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## LX_Shooter

C_G......Just found the pic on the net....No nothing about it..... 

BUCKSTER.....Might have to take you up on that..... ....


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## MNmike

I voted yes. The way I look at it is more archers in the sport. It doesn't mean overcrouding. Gun hunters may or may not go with a crossbow. One may not be able to hunt during the gun season if he fills a crossbow tag. At least that is the way here. If I take my deer during archery season, filling my tags, I'm done. Most gun hunters are group hunters and are fulfilling a tradition that most are not wanting to give up. 

As far as accuracy. The same has been said about archery overall.
It really depends on the individual knowing the equipment and his or her's ability to shoot. The same goes with all archery equipment and the person behind it.

If a seperate season is made that also creates a problem. If a hunter is disabled, he may need help. Able bodied people are needed to help out. Why should I have to buy another license and piece of equipment to hunt with a friend or relative?

Just my thoughts.

Mike


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## docteur

> This whole debate has started me wondering why archers have a special season. What is the purpose and thinking behind giving us archers, not only a special season, but the premier time slot......pre-rut & rut?
> 
> Does anybody know the official (DNR) reasoning behind this special priviledge. Perhaps that could help settle the argument about what weapons should be allowed.
> 
> Another interesting question on the subject: should crossbows be allowed in the freestyle division of all competitive archery tournaments? Perhaps the answer to this question could help with all the arguments about the advantages and disadvantages of the crossbow that we've been reading here.


I'm still curious about these two questions and would really like some serious answers. I think they are key to the debate about crossbows in archery seasons.

Doc


----------



## Matt Musto

sweet and to the point


----------



## bps3040

TJ_Hoss said:


> Some people who love to bow hunt get injured and cant use a regular bow. I know a pastor who loves to hunt put lost his arm. Needless to say he has to use a crossbow. That would suck if he had to bow hunt during a "special" season. Or what if you lost a limb? you would want to hunt.
> 
> People need to start working together instead of being divided. gun/bow/crossbow/spear, whatever. just hunt


Totally agree


----------



## meatmissle

On the good side, I think it will get alot of youth hunters involved in the archery season who cannot draw enough weight with a bow to hunt yet. On the bad side, I think it will cause you to have alot more road hunters and have people taking shoots at distances they have no business shooting at. I've dabled with the crossbow and off a table using sandbags a good quality crossbow will drive nails! But shooting offhanded it's a different story! I think people get the misconseption that these things will shoot like a rife and tend to push the limit on how far to fling a arrow that will result in alot more deer being wounded than killed at the longer yardages.


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## spurroad

I'm all for using crossbows only if you are unable to draw back a conventional bow due to disability or advancing age. Crossbow is nothing more than a gun for close up shots. What makes archery hunting fun is that you have to draw the bow when the game is very close. The crossbow is not sporting in this regard.


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## preyquester

swim to the boat & pull the ladder up.....what the he77 do you care what someone dose??????????


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## hjort jagare

.:shade: Our state and others have legalized them end of story unless you want to join the anti hunter groups and try to limit our crossbow brothers opportunities? That being said I will continue to use a compound until I cant I believe the advantages of a crossbow our outweighed by disadvantages. JMO :darkbeer:


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## antler fool

disabled yes, otherwise no. I hunt in Pa. where Crossbows became legal last year The inclusion of crossbows sunsets in three years from last season,it then will be reviewed by the Game Comission. I'm sure they are here to stay, more crossbow sales more money etc.,etc. Our archery kill was up 13% last year with the inclusion of Crossbows. If you want to check, this info is on the Pa. Game Comission web site . Anyway isn't it about the resource? I worry about the impact on our deer heard,I couldn't care less what someone else hunt's with. Putting crossbows out there will increase the amount of pre rut bucks killed during archery season. Everyone worries about killing to much doe but they seem to think that this will not have a impact on our buck population, I find that hard to believe.


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## Hemi

Oklahoma just allowed full crossbow use by anyone this year. I wish the state would require users to take a doe before allowing them a buck tag.


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## hmanjr

I think crossbows should be allowed for the entire bow season regardless of physical ability.


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## Runningbuck

The sad part of this thread and so many like it, the stickbow hunters don't like compounds because they have a advantage. The compound hunters don't like crossbows because they have a advantage. crossbow hunters and gun hunters don't feel they have a advantage. Bottom line, UNITED WE STAND DIVIDED WE FALL


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## Chief55

I always loved bow season because it was the first season to open and I would see more deer. They had not been pressured to the point of going nocturnal yet. There was hardly any other hunters and you could take a buck or a doe for your table. It never had anything to do with me liking bows and arrows better than guns or anything else, it was about seeing more deer. I suspect that lots of folks having a problem with crossbow use during bow session really just have a problem with shearing their space with other hunters, doesn't matter what they use. I think that meny of them just don't want more hunters out there. I have had to learn to except the fact that I will see other hunters. Lots of other hunters and most of time right were I had planned on being. Funny, when I was in my prime most of them were not even born or were in diapers. It's ok, I just go to plan B mod 2. Live and let live. That is part of the problem with getting old. Everything changes but it doesn't get any better. But I am glad to see people enjoying nature and hunting in general and wish everyone the best of luck with getting your deer. Darn, I just missed one yesterday.:aww:


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## black_ice_84

I have 2 problems with crosbows. First reason is that it would cause more people to take shots that would either just wound the deer or hurt someone else. My reasoning is for the that I started hunting public land long ago and have witnessed and heard too many times of rifle hunters shooting first and identify later. That is the main thing I am afraid of and why I mostly hunt only during bow season because I know you have no choice but to see what your gonna shoot at before you draw verses a crossbow that you can walk around with at full draw and "shoot off the hip" if the person wanted to and you cant tell me that that appeal wont pull those type of hunters. 

My second reason is for fear of a lost season. Now before that statement gets taken out of context I am not meaning losing the season by the incorporation of crossbows. you have to understand what has already happened in mississippi, the loss of muzzleloader season. Muzzleloaders lost thier season becuase of the incorporation of the next best thing so to say that eventualy led to using singleshot breech loaded rifles and the new "primitive weapon" season. Well the majority of bowhunters in Mississippi don't want this to happen to the archery season. I mean if crossbows get fully included whats to stop the dominoe effect of say muzzleloaders saying "Crossbows not that different from a rifle so let us get a peice of that season and so on and so on". Don't tell me it won't happen because that is exactly how this state lost muzzleoader season. 

With that being said this year they have included crossbows as archery equipment on public land and the MDWFP are trying to push for a whole season of "bring what you want" so we are fighting a losing battle anyways. 

But those are just my 2 cents and its not ment for everyone to like or agree with me.


----------



## Jim C

Targetnut said:


> The poll did not say anything about disabled hunters.
> 
> There is no question that a crossbow is a viable weapon that can be used to harvest game animals.
> 
> But I believe that the differences in shooting a crossbow should keep them from being used during regular archery season (except by truly disabled hunters).
> 
> I would have no problem with allowing them during black powder or general firearms season.
> 
> I think also that there needs to be a requirement for weapon specific hunter education. Like a special certificate for firearms, Archery, Crossbows, etc. No exceptions or "grandfathering" either.


any able bodied person who uses a bow with letoff and a release has absolutely no credibility in whining about a crossbow being used in the same season as the bow they shoot


----------



## Jim C

spurroad said:


> I'm all for using crossbows only if you are unable to draw back a conventional bow due to disability or advancing age. Crossbow is nothing more than a gun for close up shots. What makes archery hunting fun is that you have to draw the bow when the game is very close. The crossbow is not sporting in this regard.


I am all for using compound bows if you are unable-after practicing at least 600 arrows a week, to use a real bow and fingers.
this crap about drawing in the presence of game is just the lastest talking point from the selfish.

I can hold an Ohio legal compound hunting bow at full draw for several minutes. that's a huge advantage over a recurve

if you shoot a compound bow, you have no credibility in whining about crossbows


----------



## Jim C

black_ice_84 said:


> I have 2 problems with crosbows. First reason is that it would cause more people to take shots that would either just wound the deer or hurt someone else. My reasoning is for the that I started hunting public land long ago and have witnessed and heard too many times of rifle hunters shooting first and identify later. That is the main thing I am afraid of and why I mostly hunt only during bow season because I know you have no choice but to see what your gonna shoot at before you draw verses a crossbow that you can walk around with at full draw and "shoot off the hip" if the person wanted to and you cant tell me that that appeal wont pull those type of hunters.
> 
> My second reason is for fear of a lost season. Now before that statement gets taken out of context I am not meaning losing the season by the incorporation of crossbows. you have to understand what has already happened in mississippi, the loss of muzzleloader season. Muzzleloaders lost thier season becuase of the incorporation of the next best thing so to say that eventualy led to using singleshot breech loaded rifles and the new "primitive weapon" season. Well the majority of bowhunters in Mississippi don't want this to happen to the archery season. I mean if crossbows get fully included whats to stop the dominoe effect of say muzzleloaders saying "Crossbows not that different from a rifle so let us get a peice of that season and so on and so on". Don't tell me it won't happen because that is exactly how this state lost muzzleoader season.
> 
> With that being said this year they have included crossbows as archery equipment on public land and the MDWFP are trying to push for a whole season of "bring what you want" so we are fighting a losing battle anyways.
> 
> But those are just my 2 cents and its not ment for everyone to like or agree with me.


complete BS-to say crossbow archers take longer shots is without any basis in fact. there are many stories of trad archers years ago launching arrows at 100 yard deer etc. compounds can aim at a deer at 100 yards-while I have yet to see a crossbow that allows that. try again


----------



## rn3

Jim C said:


> I am all for using compound bows if you are unable-after practicing at least 600 arrows a week, to use a real bow and fingers.
> this crap about drawing in the presence of game is just the lastest talking point from the selfish.
> 
> I can hold an Ohio legal compound hunting bow at full draw for several minutes. that's a huge advantage over a recurve
> 
> if you shoot a compound bow, you have no credibility in whining about crossbows


Do you hunt?


----------



## Tim50

WOW!!! Who would drag up a six year old thread. Interesting to find not much has changed on the arguement against the crossbow inclusion.* ALL emotion!!!* Also interesting to see at least three of the states mentioned in this thread have gone full inclusion. Pennsylvania-Tennessee & Arkansas!! So I guess the thing to do to gain inclusion is to eliminate the emotion because I have yet to see one FACT to support the anti crossbow inclusion debate.


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## Jim C

rn3 said:


> Do you hunt?


yeah

are you an archer as opposed to a bowhunter


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## rn3

Jim C said:


> yeah
> 
> are you an archer as opposed to a bowhunter


I am both, an archer and a bowhunter.


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## CardiacKid74

I voted yes. Suprised to see no's winning. The way I look at it is if crossbows get more people involved in hunting I'm all for it. If we currently keep losing hunters every year like the statsitics show we will not have a hunting heritage to pass onto our children or grandchildren. 

Crossbows give no advantage to a well tuned bow.


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## Jim C

rn3 said:


> I am both, an archer and a bowhunter.


well if you are an archer you really wouldn't care what others hunt with

a real archer realizes that -as the poster right above this post noted-crossbows really aren't an advantage compared to other bows in the hands of ARCHERS

now I concede that a crossbow will allow a non archer faster acquisition of hunting level accuracy compared to a compound bow in the hand of a non archer. But if you are an archer, you have nothing to worry about so there is no reason for you to worry about crossbows


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## rattus58

What is a crossbow? How does it kill game? Is there any differnce between how a crossbow kills and a compound bow? Is there any difference in the range of the crossbow versus the compound bow? Are there any limitations with the crossbow compared to the compound? The one most talked about advantage of the crossbow is that it is a bow that is at constant draw, if you desire.

When you are talking hunting, how does this impact you the compound bow shooter? How does an 80-90% letoff benefit the compound shooter? How do wrist slings and release aids benefit the compound shooter? How do blinds and elevated stands benefit the hunter... regardless of equipment?

Since we are talking hunting, and not competition, having the crossbow in an archery season really doesn't impact the harvest, and hasn't proven to be an impact in the harvest in the states that have approved use of crossbows in archery seasons. The advantages of crossbows are outweighed by weight, cumbersomeness, and loading.

The bottom line here is that crossbows might keep hunters hunting without having to be disabled to do so... a good thing in my estimation since the more we can keep people hunting, the longer we will enjoy our sport... remember who is in office... who is in the Department of the interior, and who is running your DNR.

A bow is a bow. It kills the same, shoots the same, and has the same range whether crossbow or compound. With letoff and releases, the argument of drawing in the presence of game is mute, and with tents, pop-ups, and blinds, wouldn't matter if your using a longbow or machine gun. Crossbow is a good compromise... :teeth:

Much Aloha... :beer:


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## SteveB

> if you shoot a compound bow, you have no credibility in whining about crossbows


:thumbs_up


----------



## kebees4

rcd567 said:


> I vote yes. The crossbow is nothing like a firearm. Your compound actually has more KE and is a better weapon but if people want to use a crossbow I say why not? Fords, Chevys, and Dodges seem to kill more deer than anything else. I'd like to see a few more hunters, there's strength in numbers. I hunt private land with controlled access so its not a huge deal to me.


 I voted yes.
You are 100% correct. Crossbows have been legal for probably 20 years in Ohio and there is no problem with them. They get more people in the woods and don't have more range. The people that don't want them are not helping out in getting people out. I have hunted with both so I think before people run them down they need to just shoot one before judging them.


----------



## hockeyref

PA allows them. I "personally" don't feel that an able bodied hunter should be permitted to use them. If all are allowed to use them during archery season, then they should put specific limits on them regarding draw weight, bolt weight, as well as max FPS and Max & Min KE so that they are - at most - the ballistic equivalent of a compound. Also, they should specifically disallow any sort of optical sight (holo\dot\scope, etc). Specify that they can have fiber optic pins up front and a simple peep "v - notch" rear sight - same as what is used on a compound.

IMHO the main reason they were included was $$$$... more license sales, and more hardware sales..... they are trying to get more gun hunters to buy archery tags.... But then again, it's become an equipment race in the last 20 years....

JimC, just curious since I know you are heavy into the JOAD, etc... do you take out a x-bow, recurve or compound? I personally use anything from a selfbow to a modern compound depending on how I feel that day and they type of terrain and cover I will be in.

Freestyle division? Can I wear my rifle coat? Talk about an unfair advantage....


----------



## Jim C

I have taken game with just about every type of bow there is

unfair to who? are you confused into thinking hunting is a competition against other hunters.

I shot highpower, trying to hunt in a Creedmore Jacket would be awful


----------



## rattus58

hockeyref said:


> PA allows them. I "personally" don't feel that an able bodied hunter should be permitted to use them. If all are allowed to use them during archery season, then they should put specific limits on them regarding draw weight, bolt weight, as well as max FPS and Max & Min KE so that they are - at most - the ballistic equivalent of a compound. Also, they should specifically disallow any sort of optical sight (holo\dot\scope, etc). Specify that they can have fiber optic pins up front and a simple peep "v - notch" rear sight - same as what is used on a compound.
> 
> IMHO the main reason they were included was $$$$... more license sales, and more hardware sales..... they are trying to get more gun hunters to buy archery tags.... But then again, it's become an equipment race in the last 20 years....
> 
> JimC, just curious since I know you are heavy into the JOAD, etc... do you take out a x-bow, recurve or compound? I personally use anything from a selfbow to a modern compound depending on how I feel that day and they type of terrain and cover I will be in.
> 
> Freestyle division? Can I wear my rifle coat? Talk about an unfair advantage....


 They ARE the ballistic equivalent of a Compound... that is the problem with bias and misinformation and not checking things out for yourself...


----------



## rn3

Would all you crossbow advocates admit that already having the bow cocked is an advantage when an animal walks up.


----------



## SteveB

Sure its an advantage - if the deer walks into the path you have it pointed at.
But so is drawing an 80% letoff compound while a deer's head is behind a tree and can't see you and waiting 3 minutes at full draw (longer with the lower cam resting on your knee) and then pulling the TRIGGER to shoot him.


----------



## Hasbro

Jim C said:


> complete BS-to say crossbow archers take longer shots is without any basis in fact. there are many stories of trad archers years ago launching arrows at 100 yard deer etc. compounds can aim at a deer at 100 yards-while I have yet to see a crossbow that allows that. try again


Complete BS. PSE tac 15(?). Pete Shepley... 6" groups at 100yds. Talk about CB talking points. CB's are a major advantage!

Oklahoma opened CB's to all in archery season this year. A bear season was opened last year.... 1 month long season... 20 bears total kill... Archery only. 
Last year 19 bears were killed in Ok in one month.... Compounds & trad only. This year 31 bears were killed in Ok in one weekend. 21 with a CB. End of bear season!
So as ole whats his name said "Don't piss down my back & tell me its rain'n".

Can't wait for the season long kill info.


----------



## rattus58

Hasbro said:


> Complete BS. PSE tac 15(?). Pete Shepley... 6" groups at 100yds. Talk about CB talking points. CB's are a major advantage!
> 
> Oklahoma opened CB's to all in archery season this year. A bear season was opened last year.... 1 month long season... 20 bears total kill... Archery only.
> Last year 19 bears were killed in Ok in one month.... Compounds & trad only. This year 31 bears were killed in Ok in one weekend. 21 with a CB. End of bear season!
> So as ole whats his name said "Don't piss down my back & tell me its rain'n".
> 
> Can't wait for the season long kill info.


What do you mean end of bear season?


----------



## Hasbro

rattus58 said:


> What do you mean end of bear season?


20 bear permits for the month long season... You have to check the web site every day to see if all of the permits were filled... If more than 20 bears are taken the season is over.


----------



## Guest

if hunting with a crossbow was such an advantage why doesn't the harvest rate reflect that, haven't seen on report from anyplace that doesn't show both about equal harvest % rates


----------



## Jim C

Hasbro said:


> Complete BS. PSE tac 15(?). Pete Shepley... 6" groups at 100yds. Talk about CB talking points. CB's are a major advantage!
> 
> Oklahoma opened CB's to all in archery season this year. A bear season was opened last year.... 1 month long season... 20 bears total kill... Archery only.
> Last year 19 bears were killed in Ok in one month.... Compounds & trad only. This year 31 bears were killed in Ok in one weekend. 21 with a CB. End of bear season!
> So as ole whats his name said "Don't piss down my back & tell me its rain'n".
> 
> Can't wait for the season long kill info.


I love educating people who have no clue

yeah that can be done perhaps off a rest. I also have seen good compound archers shoot 60/60 at 90 meters. that is a 4.2 inch or better group at 99 yards. no rest. so your claims that a fanciful claim by the maker of a crossbow proves crossbows have an advantage is just plain stupid. 

so what is your rant about.?

learn about the subject please before trying to discuss it with me


----------



## Jim C

Sean McKenty said:


> if hunting with a crossbow was such an advantage why doesn't the harvest rate reflect that, haven't seen on report from anyplace that doesn't show both about equal harvest % rates


you are using logic in dealing with a poster who does not.


----------



## rn3

SteveB said:


> Sure its an advantage - if the deer walks into the path you have it pointed at.
> But so is drawing an 80% letoff compound while a deer's head is behind a tree and can't see you and waiting 3 minutes at full draw (longer with the lower cam resting on your knee) and then pulling the TRIGGER to shoot him.


I'd like to see you hold a bow back for 3 minutes and still make a good shot.


----------



## rn3

Jim C said:


> I love educating people who have no clue
> 
> yeah that can be done perhaps off a rest. I also have seen good compound archers shoot 60/60 at 90 meters. that is a 4.2 inch or better group at 99 yards. no rest. so your claims that a fanciful claim by the maker of a crossbow proves crossbows have an advantage is just plain stupid.
> 
> so what is your rant about.?
> 
> learn about the subject please before trying to discuss it with me


Who have you seen clean 90 meters.


----------



## SteveB

rn3 said:


> I'd like to see you hold a bow back for 3 minutes and still make a good shot.


Not hard at all with a 50lb 80% (you can get up to 99%) compound thingy.
And doing it for a minute ( before you pull thr TRIGGER) is a piece of cake.
Like to see you do a minute (very easy w/compound)with a 50 lb recurve and make the shot.


----------



## Hasbro

Jim C said:


> I love educating people who have no clue
> 
> yeah that can be done perhaps off a rest. I also have seen good compound archers shoot 60/60 at 90 meters. that is a 4.2 inch or better group at 99 yards. no rest. so your claims that a fanciful claim by the maker of a crossbow proves crossbows have an advantage is just plain stupid.
> 
> so what is your rant about.?
> 
> learn about the subject please before trying to discuss it with me


You are the opinionated overbearing jerk here not me... You don't have enough facts on the CB pro side to have an honest debate so you attack people that have diff thoughts. Typical liberal trick.

I know an eight year old girl that shoots 4" groups at 40yards with a crossbow.... I know that she hasn't shot the thing 20 times total. I don't know any bowhunters that were able to do that.
As far as the 100yd debate... the 90 meter shooters are practiced, trained & have thousands and thousands of shots under their belt to reach that level of play... Xbows?


----------



## Hasbro

Jim C said:


> you are using logic in dealing with a poster who does not.


More attacks? Trying to shut down the debate? Friggin liberal!


----------



## Hasbro

SteveB said:


> Not hard at all with a 50lb 80% (you can get up to 99%) compound thingy.
> And doing it for a minute ( before you pull thr TRIGGER) is a piece of cake.
> Like to see you do a minute (very easy w/compound)with a 50 lb recurve and make the shot.


True on the recurve... But 50#'s is not a normal hunting weight for a fit archer, at least not around here. A woman, small frame person/young or an elderly archer is less likely to be able to hold that bow for a min.


----------



## Hasbro

Sean McKenty said:


> if hunting with a crossbow was such an advantage why doesn't the harvest rate reflect that, haven't seen on report from anyplace that doesn't show both about equal harvest % rates


All i have to go on in OK is the bear hunting fiasco... I am not an unreasonable person.... If the rest of the season kills arn't way off then i'll change my mind as to wether CB's should be used in archery season. But to say that the CB hunter has no advantage over a compound or trad archer is IMO a large stretch.


----------



## Tim50

> *Pat's Archery*..... PSE. Mathews. Hoyt. Martin. Bowtech. Bear. Browning. Diamond. Mission
> PSE XF Axe6....29"....Black. 62" Rutter&Stiles, Shape Shifter, recurve 45#. 62" Hoyt GameMaster recurve, 45#.


Another anti crossbow supporter with personal motives. Try dealing with the issue using facts not emotion & personal agenda. Are you "Pat's Archery"? Will crossbows affect your bottom line? PSE & Bowtech produce two of the most advanced crossbows on the market. Did you notify these companies of your anti crossbow stance & discontinue selling their product? If you oppose crosbows & what they stand for that is your call...but man up & drop those bow lines..I guess you are not *ALL IN *when it comes to $$$$$ in your pocket.


----------



## Curve1

In Alabama they legalized CB's a few years ago. I could care less what someone uses. I shoot recurves and longbows and to me I dont see a lot of diiference between a compound and a cross-bow, except the fact that one is held vertical and one horizontal. 
I dont see any ill effect here in Alabama with the use of crossbows. Folks will have different opinions, but the way I see it , I may not care for a particular weapon personally but it could be *my *weapon of choice coming under fire next time.
Hunting in general is constantly under fire and I dont take it for granted anymore.


----------



## Tim50

Curve1 said:


> In Alabama they legalized CB's a few years ago. I could care less what someone uses. I shoot recurves and longbows and to me I dont see a lot of diiference between a compound and a cross-bow, except the fact that one is held vertical and one horizontal.
> I dont see any ill effect here in Alabama with the use of crossbows. Folks will have different opinions, but the way I see it , I may not care for a particular weapon personally but it could be *my *weapon of choice coming under fire next time.
> Hunting in general is constantly under fire and I dont take it for granted anymore.


Great post!! Well said!


----------



## Jim C

rn3 said:


> Who have you seen clean 90 meters.


do you know what the current world record is at 90 meters?

do you know what the NFAA indoor record is with a crossbow--I do, a boy I coach set it 

115/120X

do you know how many 120X have been shot with a compound? I don't but I have seen it done at least 30 times in the 6 NFAA Indoors I have attended


Its fun watching people who have no clue about crossbows set themselves up to get schooled constantly by those of us who do.

lets cut the crap--the only thing that motivates people like you is that you don't want other people joining the bow hunting season. all this specious BS about crossbows having an advantage is just pure and simple nonsense.


----------



## Jim C

Hasbro said:


> More attacks? Trying to shut down the debate? Friggin liberal!



Psychobabble--I want you to keep talking. Every time you do you set Sean up to slap around your anti xbow bws


----------



## Jim C

Hasbro said:


> You are the opinionated overbearing jerk here not me... You don't have enough facts on the CB pro side to have an honest debate so you attack people that have diff thoughts. Typical liberal trick.
> 
> I know an eight year old girl that shoots 4" groups at 40yards with a crossbow.... I know that she hasn't shot the thing 20 times total. I don't know any bowhunters that were able to do that.
> As far as the 100yd debate... the 90 meter shooters are practiced, trained & have thousands and thousands of shots under their belt to reach that level of play... Xbows?


wrong and you can call me names but the fact is I know what i am talking about and you do not. and when you have hunted 35 years with crossbows as I have and rung up a bunch of 1200 FITA recurve scores come and talk to me. 

If xbows are so much more accurate why does the world champion-shooting a 3000 dollar bow after shooting 4-500 shots a week for 5 years (not counting thousands of rounds through an air rifle working on trigger control) and lifting weights three times a week (as well as being a JOAD gold olympian in compound)-post scores that wont even make the first page on the pro compound division at the NFAA?

I am not opinionated--I am right. Deal with it


----------



## Hasbro

Tim50 said:


> Another anti crossbow supporter with personal motives. Try dealing with the issue using facts not emotion & personal agenda. Are you "Pat's Archery"? Will crossbows affect your bottom line? PSE & Bowtech produce two of the most advanced crossbows on the market. Did you notify these companies of your anti crossbow stance & discontinue selling their product? If you oppose crosbows & what they stand for that is your call...but man up & drop those bow lines..I guess you are not *ALL IN *when it comes to $$$$$ in your pocket.


I am not Pat's Archery... He's a friend of mine & I help him when it gets busy. & by the way... He sold a crap load of CBs this year. I have NO financial dog in this fight.. I do have an opinion thats not the same as yours. So manup & deal with it!


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## Hasbro

Jim C said:


> wrong and you can call me names but the fact is I know what i am talking about and you do not. and when you have hunted 35 years with crossbows as I have and rung up a bunch of 1200 FITA recurve scores come and talk to me.
> 
> If xbows are so much more accurate why does the world champion-shooting a 3000 dollar bow after shooting 4-500 shots a week for 5 years (not counting thousands of rounds through an air rifle working on trigger control) and lifting weights three times a week (as well as being a JOAD gold olympian in compound)-post scores that wont even make the first page on the pro compound division at the NFAA?
> 
> I am not opinionated--I am right. Deal with it


Bla Bla Bla.... Sick of talking this stuff with you... Nothing I say will change your mind & nothing you say will change mine. Sean hasn't kicked me anywhere & I flat just don't like you.


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## Tim50

Hasbro said:


> I am not Pat's Archery... He's a friend of mine & I help him when it gets busy. & by the way... He sold a crap load of CBs this year. I have NO financial dog in this fight.. I do have an opinion thats not the same as yours. So manup & deal with it!


I have no issue with opposing "opinions" on the crossbow issue. Some just attempt to push their "emotional opinion" to others under the guise of facts. I would have loved to hear your sales pitch in your "friends" shop when a fellow hunter came in wanting a crossbow! I'm sure your put your "personal agenda" aside & delt with the customer using all the available crossbow data & facts...:lie:


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## Tim50

Hasbro said:


> Bla Bla Bla.... Sick of talking this stuff with you... Nothing I say will change your mind & nothing you say will change mine. Sean hasn't kicked me anywhere & I flat just don't like you.


Facts do tend to confuse some!!!


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## rattus58

rn3 said:


> I'd like to see you hold a bow back for 3 minutes and still make a good shot.


What is the point? That is not the point of archery.... and shows how vacuuous the arguments become. The point of archery is not how long you can hold the draw but how the equipment functions... nothing more, nothing less, and a crossbow is in ALL MANNER a bow. It has nothing to do with anything else. What powers the shot... limbs... crossbow and recurve, compound, and recurve. What IS shot.... an arrow... crossbow, recurve, longbow and compound. How does it kill.... a broadhead... crossbow, compound, recurve and longbow. 

What is the range of a compound bow? Chuch Adams came here and hunted with Eugene Yap up on the slopes of Mauna Loa for Mouflon sheep. He made a 55 yard shot on the ram maybe 10 or 15 years ago. I haven't read a single account of a CREDIBLE animal taken with a crossbow at those distances and EVERY manufacturer of whom I contacted (I'm trying to get crossbows legal in Hawaii) doesn't consider a shot over 40-60 yards to be anywhere in the norm and NOT A ONE called it a 100 yard shooter... in other words... no one is bragging on the range except those who are against them.

Now this idea of holding time. How does that equate to hunting? You go hunting to find game and kill it. A crossbow doesn't do it, a Barret doesn't do it, hunting skill, woodsmanship if you will, is what makes a successful hunt. Hunting has changed recently too... when I started (and still pretty much how most hunt in Hawaii) it was stalking game that got you your animal (spot and stalk I suppose more accurately). I've scouted and made blinds, set up in travel routes in blinds and used a treestand ONLY hunting bears. I can't tell you the number of times I didn't get a shot with my muzzleloader (the ONLY thing I hunt with other than a bow... longbow or recurve). Being drawn doesn't matter. Does any form of hunting have an advantage for the hunter in *finding game?* NO!

Today with treestands and blinds, both home made and commercial, you do that to mask movement of your actions, rifle OR bow. MOVEMENT! A crossbow doesn't mask movement. I've shot game from in the open with my Quillan Recurve twice... and I can tell you that from my experience and the experiences of others who have used crossbows and compounds, movement is what kills the shot... not the holding time... and ASSUMING HOLDING TIME entered into it... SO WHAT? That is not the criteria for archery or BOW HUNTING. Bow hunting suggests killing game with a BOW! And a Crossbow is nothing but a BOW. 

Much Aloha... :beer:


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## Hasbro

Tim50 said:


> I have no issue with opposing "opinions" on the crossbow issue. Some just attempt to push their "emotional opinion" to others under the guise of facts. I would have loved to hear your sales pitch in your "friends" shop when a fellow hunter came in wanting a crossbow! I'm sure your put your "personal agenda" aside & delt with the customer using all the available crossbow data & facts...:lie:


My friend sells crossbows... Doesn't mean I have to like them. I don't have a "personal agenda".... I just state my opinion. 

I have avoided the CB debate for years & would not have gotten involved (again) with this 6 yr old thread had one member with an extremely "emotional opinion" not ridden rough shot over another members OPINION.


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## Tim50

Hasbro said:


> My friend sells crossbows... Doesn't mean I have to like them. I don't have a "personal agenda".... I just state my opinion.
> 
> I have avoided the CB debate for years & would not have gotten involved (again) with this 6 yr old thread had one member with an extremely "emotional opinion" not ridden rough shot over another members OPINION.


BUT if you work in your friends shop can you give an unbiased opinion on crossbows presenting the hunter with available facts & data about his crossbow choice? You were against this issue 6 1/2 years ago and your opinion has not changed! Re-read the recent posts & see who jumps who! 6.5 years is a long time to hold a grudge & not become enlightened to the true facts available. If someone makes claims they better be able to support those claims with facts....it is just that easy! All I ask is you debate with data & facts not emotion! Do not expect to make outlandish claims about crossbow & not be called on it! Those days are over!


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## Jim C

Hasbro said:


> Bla Bla Bla.... Sick of talking this stuff with you... Nothing I say will change your mind & nothing you say will change mine. Sean hasn't kicked me anywhere & I flat just don't like you.


What a great testament to the intellectual strength the anti-xbow types bring to the debate

No wonder their side continues to lose state after state


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## Monster X

LetThemGrow said:


> Gotta love the attitudes expressed above: "more hunters in the woods will mess me up" (selfish), "why should an able-bodied person have a crossbow if I can't?" (selfish). Some of you were right on the money-the crossbow will not ruin archery. In a time when hunter numbers are declining, why would we want to turn someone away?? Self-righteousness will ruin hunting as we know it, not crossbows!!!
> 
> To quote a famous statesman (think key and lightning) "Assuredly we must all hand together or we will all hand seperately".


I agree. here in va archery season is compound, recurve, longbow and crossbow. I have a fix for this...... Would you rather someone kill a deer with a crossbow or wound a deer with a bow because they cant hold it still enough. Or even gut shoot it and it run off and you cant find it. I do not use a crossbow. I hunt with a Monster 7.0. Crossbows are only good for certain yardage, compounds are good up to 60-70 yards. So no complaints from me.


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## Monster X

rn3 said:


> I'd like to see you hold a bow back for 3 minutes and still make a good shot.


I have done that 3 weeks ago and got a doe at 40 yards between 2 trees about 2ft apart. When she went behind the brush it gave me time to draw. Then it took her a few min to come out. The only good shot i had was then. So yes it can and has been done. Oh yea,,,,,, It wasnt that bad to hold with a 65% cam. 28in draw and 60lbs. Rather easy


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## Jim C

Monster X said:


> I have done that 3 weeks ago and got a doe at 40 yards between 2 trees about 2ft apart. When she went behind the brush it gave me time to draw. Then it took her a few min to come out. The only good shot i had was then. So yes it can and has been done. Oh yea,,,,,, It wasnt that bad to hold with a 65% cam. 28in draw and 60lbs. Rather easy


years ago a FITA world indoor silver medalist used to shoot at a range my wife owned. so did the only two time individual men's olympic gold medalist. we also had several top junior recurve archers and later (at my current range) the world crossbow champion. its easier to hold a 80% let off average hunting compound at full draw for 3 minutes than it is to hold a crossbow aimed while standing. I hunted with a crossbow for decades and I never shot one at a deer off a rest. 

we let all sorts of people try to hold each bow-we put lazers on them to show the movement

but i agree with Monster-better someone makes an accurate shot than wound a deer


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## TheTracker

Jim C said:


> ye. its easier to hold a 80% let off average hunting compound at full draw for 3 minutes than it is to hold a crossbow aimed while standing. I hunted with a crossbow for decades and I never shot one at a deer off a rest.


100% True


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## TheTracker

I met a woman a few weeks ago who just recently got into archery and has already had 4 robin hoods at 30 yards! Crossbows have no advantage over Compounds!


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## Buckhavoc

not unless you truely are handicapped or to old to pull a bow back...


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## rattus58

Buckhavoc said:


> not unless you truely are handicapped or to old to pull a bow back...


What happened to freedom of choice? What about if its bowhunting.... and a crossbow is a bow... its hunting?


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## Tim50

Buckhavoc said:


> not unless you truely are handicapped or to old to pull a bow back...


I guess there are different degree's of handicapped in some peoples minds. There is handicapped then there is "truely" handicapped. How old is too old to draw a bow? Just what most states need another layer of government. Now we will have the "Archery Handicap & too old to draw a bow police"!!:smile: Just because crossbow are inclued in a states archery season does not mean anyone has to change how they hunt. It is just another option for fellow hunters to choose! And if it brings some new hunters into the archery season OR some hunters BACK is that such a bad thing? If you don't want/need a crossbow that is fine also no one is twisting your arm to use one!


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## SARASR

Not for me but different strokes for...


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## pentail

I have both, in KY both are legal for at least part of the archery season. 90% of the time I pick up my compound. See no real advantage in a crossbow, they are loud, no more accurate, and kind of a pain to shoot out of a deerstand.


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## shine

Been through all the data on this. First, there is no compelling data to support the notion that adding crossbow “gets and keeps more people in hunting.” Next, I am not for crossbow in archery. There is a reason people hunt archery and it generally has a lot to do with being an “archer.” And, that is the experience they are looking for. Same with people who hunt muzzleloader. Well, why not add single shot shotguns to muzzeloading season? The ballistics are the same? But, the reality is the experience is not. I am for Cross bows and I am for Vertical Archery – but put them in separate seasons – make everyone happy. Overall, states who combined the two have created more animosity between the groups. Statistics show you actually lose about 1/3 of vertical archery, but eventually replace that 1/3rd with crossbows. These are not vertical going cross, but a different group of hunters that nets out an older demographic. The result is the exact opposite of what most state game and fish commissions wanted, you end up with an older population of people who will “age out” of the sport more quickly. Keep the meat and milk seperate.


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## Jim C

shine said:


> Been through all the data on this. First, there is no compelling data to support the notion that adding crossbow “gets and keeps more people in hunting.” Next, I am not for crossbow in archery. There is a reason people hunt archery and it generally has a lot to do with being an “archer.” And, that is the experience they are looking for. Same with people who hunt muzzleloader. Well, why not add single shot shotguns to muzzeloading season? The ballistics are the same? But, the reality is the experience is not. I am for Cross bows and I am for Vertical Archery – but put them in separate seasons – make everyone happy. Overall, states who combined the two have created more animosity between the groups. Statistics show you actually lose about 1/3 of vertical archery, but eventually replace that 1/3rd with crossbows. These are not vertical going cross, but a different group of hunters that nets out an older demographic. The result is the exact opposite of what most state game and fish commissions wanted, you end up with an older population of people who will “age out” of the sport more quickly. Keep the meat and milk seperate.


uh how is YOUR experience INFLUENCED by what another guy uses. Compounds are much closer to crossbows than trad bows so using your "logic" crossbows and compounds in one season, trads and recurves in the other


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## TheTracker

shine said:


> Been through all the data on this. First, there is no compelling data to support the notion that adding crossbow “gets and keeps more people in hunting.” Next, I am not for crossbow in archery. There is a reason people hunt archery and it generally has a lot to do with being an “archer.” And, that is the experience they are looking for. Same with people who hunt muzzleloader. Well, why not add single shot shotguns to muzzeloading season? The ballistics are the same? But, the reality is the experience is not. I am for Cross bows and I am for Vertical Archery – but put them in separate seasons – make everyone happy. Overall, states who combined the two have created more animosity between the groups. Statistics show you actually lose about 1/3 of vertical archery, but eventually replace that 1/3rd with crossbows. These are not vertical going cross, but a different group of hunters that nets out an older demographic. The result is the exact opposite of what most state game and fish commissions wanted, you end up with an older population of people who will “age out” of the sport more quickly. Keep the meat and milk seperate.


Oh there's compelling data that Crossbows adds more hunters to the woods, Ohio currently has around 175000 hunters who hunt with crossbows, In the 1982-83 season when ohio lifted restrictions on crossbows in archery season there was only 11000 hunters who used crossbows! Why would they put them in seperate seasons in any state, In ohio there are more crossbow hunters then they are longbow hunters.


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## Tim50

TheTracker said:


> Oh there's compelling data that Crossbows adds more hunters to the woods, Ohio currently has around 175000 hunters who hunt with crossbows, In the 1982-83 season when ohio lifted restrictions on crossbows in archery season there was only 11000 hunters who used crossbows! Why would they put them in seperate seasons in any state, In ohio there are more crossbow hunters then they are longbow hunters.


I would think longbow hunters are in the minority in any state. And remember in Ohio centerfire rifles are NOT an option to hunt with.


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## billygoat1

i never been around anyone hunting with crossbows until this year it seemed like everyone in PA. a bunch of people in MA.are using them. out of the five guys i hunted with 3of them were using crossbows all 3 guys didn't seem to practice at all one of them told me that he had it somewhat sighted in at 35 yds but still was taken shots at 50+yds and wounding the animal.this ticked me off so bad that i ended up driving 10 hrs home because i found out that they each took 1 deer out of the woods but between the three they shot and wounded around 15 deer,i know that people lose deer but losing an animal because you do not think you have to practice because you think it is just like shooting a gun I think that is wrong. and if you are disabled and unable to shoot a bow then yes you should be allowed to do the sport you love but you still need to practice.


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## Tim50

billygoat1 said:


> i never been around anyone hunting with crossbows until this year it seemed like everyone in PA. a bunch of people in MA.are using them. out of the five guys i hunted with 3of them were using crossbows all 3 guys didn't seem to practice at all one of them told me that he had it somewhat sighted in at 35 yds but still was taken shots at 50+yds and wounding the animal.this ticked me off so bad that i ended up driving 10 hrs home because i found out that they each took 1 deer out of the woods but between the three they shot and wounded around 15 deer,i know that people lose deer but losing an animal because you do not think you have to practice because you think it is just like shooting a gun I think that is wrong. and if you are disabled and unable to shoot a bow then yes you should be allowed to do the sport you love but you still need to practice.



Goat1..I agree with your issue that these hunters were not prepared. Did these same so called hunters practice endlessly with their compound bow? In my opinion this is on the hunters not the weapon. We all know of people who shot their bow a week before the season starts, don't scout & just stunble into the woods. Is it Bowtech's or Hoyts fault these guys don't practice? It is not the weapon it is all on the hunter! Read the bow forums in ANY state during season & read the accouts of the one's that got away. There are more posts on this subject than there should be. (IMO) Even well prepared hunters pull a shot. I am a full inclusion crossbow advocate BUT everyone needs to prepare for their season regardless of his/her weapon of choice. How many days did you hunt that these 3 guys were able to wound 15 animals???:set1_thinking:


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## rddrappo

Targetnut said:


> The poll did not say anything about disabled hunters.
> 
> I think also that there needs to be a requirement for weapon specific hunter education. Like a special certificate for firearms, Archery, Crossbows, etc. No exceptions or "grandfathering" either.


I fully agree with this. I recently had to take the hunter safety class to get my license, and most of it pertained to gun safety. There was very little mention of archery. I don't own a gun, and never will. I like guns, but a past mistake keeps me from having one. I was pretty upset that I had to learn which kind of shot shells to use for which birds and take a test on the parts of a firearm, when I only plan to hunt with a bow. 

As for crossbows, I have no problem with them. I personally think they are more trouble than they're worth, being heavy and leaving zero chance for a second shot if needed. However, I think they should be allowed to be used in archery season. It's still a stick and string, and they are no more or less technologically advanced than a compound bow.


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## TsavoCreek

For disabled hunters, yes.

People seem to forget that one difference between a crossbow and a compound/recurve/longbow is the holding of the weight at that critical time. Yes, a compound at full draw is a fraction of the max weight, but controlling your nerves and holding that weight should not be discounted. I have all of them. A crossbow in the hands of an able bodied man or woman should not be in the archery woods.


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## billygoat1

Tim50 it was supposed to be 6 days i cut it down to four the first day i was not there yet they went sat.-sat. i got there sun left thursday night


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## SteveB

jp85932 said:


> A crossbow in the hands of an able bodied man or woman should not be in the archery woods.


A 34" ata compound machine with let off that only can be shot with a trigger should not be in the archery woods - only the bows that started the archery seasons should be allowed.
See how easy it is to set arbitrary standards.


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## Jim C

jp85932 said:


> For disabled hunters, yes.
> 
> People seem to forget that one difference between a crossbow and a compound/recurve/longbow is the holding of the weight at that critical time. Yes, a compound at full draw is a fraction of the max weight, but controlling your nerves and holding that weight should not be discounted. I have all of them. A crossbow in the hands of an able bodied man or woman should not be in the archery woods.


every couple years or so the anti xbow people try to find some legitimate reason to allow compounds in a season while banning crossbows. Its all based on a facade hiding a desire to keep outhers out of the woods

I shoot Olympic recurve. At one time I was shooting 50,000 shots a year and at my very very best I was able to shoot a 1250 FITA. I can do that with a few weeks practice with a compound. IF we are going to allow Crossbows only for the disabled I suggest all those studly strong crossbow archers put away the 80% let of bows and the releases and learn to shoot a 50 pound recurve with fingers. After all, Mr Allen invented the compound for someone who was physically unable to shoot a recurve


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## PitBull Daddy

Jim C I can not agree more with you!!! If you are against a crossbow(other than for the disabled) then common sense would state that you would also be against the compound bow(other than for the disabled) since it was invented for the weak and disabled. Problem is so many archers are hypocritical about this point. There is only one reason for this and it is the same reason a group of archers are so anti-gun hunting, they want to exclude others for their own gain i.e.-ANTLER GREED!


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## Tim50

PitBull Daddy said:


> Jim C I can not agree more with you!!! If you are against a crossbow(other than for the disabled) then common sense would state that you would also be against the compound bow(other than for the disabled) since it was invented for the weak and disabled. Problem is so many archers are hypocritical about this point. There is only one reason for this and it is the same reason a group of archers are so anti-gun hunting, they want to exclude others for their own gain i.e.-ANTLER GREED!


Exactly.....Well stated!!


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## WinkWink

Targetnut said:


> I think also that there needs to be a requirement for weapon specific hunter education. Like a special certificate for firearms, Archery, Crossbows, etc. No exceptions or "grandfathering" either.


I absolutely <3333 this idea!!!!


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## rn3

Jim C said:


> every couple years or so the anti xbow people try to find some legitimate reason to allow compounds in a season while banning crossbows. Its all based on a facade hiding a desire to keep outhers out of the woods
> 
> I shoot Olympic recurve. At one time I was shooting 50,000 shots a year and at my very very best I was able to shoot a 1250 FITA. I can do that with a few weeks practice with a compound. IF we are going to allow Crossbows only for the disabled I suggest all those studly strong crossbow archers put away the 80% let of bows and the releases and learn to shoot a 50 pound recurve with fingers. After all, Mr Allen invented the compound for someone who was physically unable to shoot a recurve


I believe, you may just be exaggerating a bit.


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## Jim C

about what? I took a guy-a former USMA pistol shooter who had no archery background and spent two hours working with him and he shot over 270 on a NFAA indoor round with a Martin Cougar, Carter Trigger release and a trophy taker drop away rest.


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## rn3

Jim C said:


> about what? I took a guy-a former USMA pistol shooter who had no archery background and spent two hours working with him and he shot over 270 on a NFAA indoor round with a Martin Cougar, Carter Trigger release and a trophy taker drop away rest.


 1250 fita maybe once in practice you did. Shooting 270 in a few hours is not that big of a deal espiecialy,someone with a shooting background. Let me tell you something about good recurve shooters, they always think they can pick-up a compound and release and just go and beat everyone, not as easy as you seem to think. As far crossbows go, most of the people that I know who want to hunt with them are gun hunters who are to lazy to practice and learn to shoot a regular drawn bow. In my state crossbows are only for the handicap.


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## Jim C

rn3 said:


> 1250 fita maybe once in practice you did. Shooting 270 in a few hours is not that big of a deal espiecialy,someone with a shooting background. Let me tell you something about good recurve shooters, they always think they can pick-up a compound and release and just go and beat everyone, not as easy as you seem to think. As far crossbows go, most of the people that I know who want to hunt with them are gun hunters who are to lazy to practice and learn to shoot a regular drawn bow. In my state crossbows are only for the handicap.


lots of misinformation you are spewing there. Brandon Spray-#2 Jr Recurve archer in 2000 picked up my Jennings Target bow and practiced two weeks with it and set the FITA 25M WR indoors at the 2000 Ohio State Shoot. 

I never said anything about a good recurve archer beating a good compound shooter given it takes about a 1350 to win our state shoot (and that is not counting Ben Cleland or his Uncle who haven't been at many lately). A 1250 is not a strong compound score. and I have shot several 1200+ scores before I had shoulder surgery several years ago. 

MOst compound shooters I know don't want to shoot a recurve with no release or no let off.


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## Jim C

The bottom line is that there is no rational argument for treating a crossbow hunter any differently than a compound bow hunter. Both of those types of bows allow a novice a far faster learning curve than a recurve or longbow. and who cares? If you want to think you are "better" for doing it "the hard way" fine. Just don't impose a sense of entitlement into the season given I have seen hundreds of trad shooters who IMHO couldn't demonstrate an ethical level of accuracy.

those who whine about crossbows almost always are people who either think they have "earned" a greater right to hunt in archery season than others or are too dishonest to admit that their real motivation is not wanting others in "Their season"

and if gun hunters want to hunt with a crossbow who cares? Fred Bear used to market his bows to gun hunters so they could enjoy BOTH seasons.


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## blackoak

rn3 said:


> 1250 fita maybe once in practice you did. Shooting 270 in a few hours is not that big of a deal espiecialy,someone with a shooting background. Let me tell you something about good recurve shooters, they always think they can pick-up a compound and release and just go and beat everyone, not as easy as you seem to think. As far crossbows go, most of the people that I know who want to hunt with them are gun hunters who are to lazy to practice and learn to shoot a regular drawn bow. In my state crossbows are only for the handicap.


If cross bow are so easy and superior to vertical bows, why didn't Sitting Bull use one? Cross bow have been around for as long, if not longer than vertical bows.


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## Tim50

Sitting Bull was anti crossbow! He thought it would too many "pale faces" to the plains, to harvest his buffalo! It would ruin his hunting expierence! He wanted to keep the trophy buffalo for only HIS braves. I believe he has reliatives in Wisconsin...:laugh:


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## blackarrow911

I have read it over and over in this forum. I think the real argument here is fair and unfair advantage. Take this into consideration though, if I take my bow and upgrade it to the level of a crossbow (Scope, Draw device, and a way to keep it held back) it has just become the most awesome bow ever...and totally illegal. If you allow crossbows to become part of regular bow season, wouldn't you have to either make crossbows adhere to the bow standard or would you allow bows to use the same equipment as crossbows? Again, Fair vs. unfair advantage.

I do agree with everyone else on the disabled crossbow hunting, no argument there. I think, in my opinion, Crossbows should be merged with muzelloading. A crossbow is a gun. It is considered "Loaded", has a safety, shoulder rest, scope, and trigger. It has more in common with a muzzleloader than a bow. But again, it's just my opinion.


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## Jim C

blackarrow911 said:


> I have read it over and over in this forum. I think the real argument here is fair and unfair advantage. Take this into consideration though, if I take my bow and upgrade it to the level of a crossbow (Scope, Draw device, and a way to keep it held back) it has just become the most awesome bow ever...and totally illegal. If you allow crossbows to become part of regular bow season, wouldn't you have to either make crossbows adhere to the bow standard or would you allow bows to use the same equipment as crossbows? Again, Fair vs. unfair advantage.
> 
> I do agree with everyone else on the disabled crossbow hunting, no argument there. I think, in my opinion, Crossbows should be merged with muzelloading. A crossbow is a gun. It is considered "Loaded", has a safety, shoulder rest, scope, and trigger. It has more in common with a muzzleloader than a bow. But again, it's just my opinion.


so you think you are in competition with a crossbow hunter? that is idiotic

you might check out the predicted harvest rates

you might also check out the crossbow scores at the NFAA indoor vs the compound scores

A muzzleloader can easily kill at 200 yards so that argument is specious as well

the bottom line-you don't want more people in the woods with you


When I see people spewing arguments that not only are contrary to facts but are based on outright lies, all that is left is greed


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## blackarrow911

I'm not greedy in the least bit. I do shoot a crossbow, I do not hunt with it though. You let me put a rangefinder, Lowlight vision enhancing scope, and the ability to hold the bow back without any effort at all and I would agree crossbows should be with Bow season. But until you level the LAWS out, how can you add a gun to Bow season?

And for the record, I never said I was in competition with anyother weapon. I never said a Crossbow is a better harvesting weapon. I never compared the shooting accuracy of crossbows to compound. I never suggested a crossbow can shoot the distance of a muzzleloader. And I never said crossbow hunters cant own a compound bow as well and hunt in the designated archery season, so all that stuff you typed was speculation. My entire argument was based on LAWS and REGULATIONS, not keeping hunters out of the woods. You my friend are excatly the person you are witch hunting for. And calling other hunters ideas and OPINIONS idotic is indeed a show of the lack of intellegence for the single minded person. If you dont like reading other peoples opinions, A Poll post would not be the right place for you. 

Thank you for the time to voice my OPINION for all the others who are interested in reading. If you are not interested in my opinion, you should have stopped reading a long time ago. Thank you.


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## Jim C

blackarrow911 said:


> I'm not greedy in the least bit. I do shoot a crossbow, I do not hunt with it though. You let me put a rangefinder, Lowlight vision enhancing scope, and the ability to hold the bow back without any effort at all and I would agree crossbows should be with Bow season. But until you level the LAWS out, how can you add a gun to Bow season?


so much avoidance

who are you competing with?

the difference between a compound/release and a crossbow is minimal

yet the difference between a stick bow and a compound/release is huge

if we include compounds with sticks then it makes sense for the crossbow to be included too

and you aren't hurt in the least by some other guy using a crossbow

proof of objective hard is your burden

go ahead-prove objective harm

you cannot-I have been at this issue for 30 years and have seen all the arguments

none of them have any merit whatsoever


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## blackarrow911

I'm not understanding you. Avoidance? Competing? Release issuses? Why would I be hurt by someone using a crossbow? Objective harm? I have neither brought up or adderessed any of these issues. My agrument is in the laws and regulations that govern Bow hunting in general, not the petty arguments between two men on a forum that in the grand scheme of things means nothing. So calm down and relize that all people, you and me included, have the right to an OPINION. Trying to prove yours when not warrented by degrading anothers OPINION is selfish and greedy. Think about that, and next time you get on an OPINION forum, voice yours and listen to others, their views might be diffrent, but you may learn something, and look less like a .........


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## Bige204

I say, let them hunt with crossbows if they want to. There's no way that many gun hunters would flock to crossbow hunting. If the adage that gun hunters don't wander more than 1/2 a mile from their trucks is any indication, how is two months of scouting and tree stand hanging and trail camera checking going to feel for a gun hunter? I'm not implying that gun hunters don't do these things, but how many do you know that find the field the deer are feeding in and then set up a blind, chair or 5 gallon pail on the edge? Bow hunting (Traditional, Compound and X-bow) is a lot more time consuming than gun hunting. (Scouting, tree stand placement, mosquitoes, etc.) Believe me as a dedicated bow hunter, muzzle loader hunter, and gun hunter, it is much, much less work to sit on a field edge and wait for a deer to poke out into a field, then it is to sneak into a tree and wait for a deer to walk within bow range. Never mind finding the right tree. Also, try to still hunt with a 15 pound crossbow in your hands. Good luck. IMO, I think that anything that enables us (hunters) to recruit more hunters is not a bad thing. The more hunters, the less chance the antis win and the better chance we don't lose our right and opportunity to hunt. Hope everyone is having or has had an excellent season. Happy hunting.


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## SteveB

A


> crossbow is a gun. It is considered "Loaded", has a safety, shoulder rest, scope, and trigger.


You either forgot the smiley face or little things like BANG, gunpowder, 2200 fps, hydrostatic schock, and probably a couple dozen others.


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## blackarrow911

Firearms have BANG, Gunpowder, 2200FPS, hydrostatic shock...and a couple dozen others. Guns are anything that fires a projectile at an accelerated rate.. I.E. Paintball Guns, Air soft Guns, Pellet Guns (Which some are well above 1500 FPS presently), Sling shots, or Crossbows. Thats not opinion, thats Law. The questions is not What it is...but Where to put it.


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## Jim C

blackarrow911 said:


> I'm not understanding you. Avoidance? Competing? Release issuses? Why would I be hurt by someone using a crossbow? Objective harm? I have neither brought up or adderessed any of these issues. My agrument is in the laws and regulations that govern Bow hunting in general, not the petty arguments between two men on a forum that in the grand scheme of things means nothing. So calm down and relize that all people, you and me included, have the right to an OPINION. Trying to prove yours when not warrented by degrading anothers OPINION is selfish and greedy. Think about that, and next time you get on an OPINION forum, voice yours and listen to others, their views might be diffrent, but you may learn something, and look less like a .........


you were the one whining about "unfair advantage". and yes greed and selfishness is behind the anti xbow mentality


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## Jim C

blackarrow911 said:


> Firearms have BANG, Gunpowder, 2200FPS, hydrostatic shock...and a couple dozen others. Guns are anything that fires a projectile at an accelerated rate.. I.E. Paintball Guns, Air soft Guns, Pellet Guns (Which some are well above 1500 FPS presently), Sling shots, or Crossbows. Thats not opinion, thats Law. The questions is not What it is...but Where to put it.


lets talk about LAW since that is something I understand maybe even better than archery

Firearms (guns) are regulated by the United States Code starting around 18 USC 920 or so. to sell guns as a business one needs a FEDERAL FIREARMS LICENSE. book keeping requirements on GUNS (firearms) are strict

the federal government treats CROSSBOWS AND COMPOUND BOWS exactly the same. Most crossbows don't shoot any faster than MOST COMPOUND BOws. IN reality the average HUNTING Crossbow shoots at the same speed as the average HUNTING COmpound bow. THe compound bow is ballistically a little more efficient. I can also tell you there are very few crossbows that can be aimed directly at a 100 yard target and hit at that aiming point. In other words, you have to aim above the center of a 100 Yard bullseye. Most compound bows-that is not true. People with forty pound compound bows can hit the center of a FITA target at 100 yards while aiming directly at that center. 

so again your claims seem to be in error. guns are not something that fire something at an accelerated rate. that is just a term you made up


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## blackarrow911

Jim C said:


> lets talk about LAW since that is something I understand maybe even better than archery
> 
> Firearms (guns) are regulated by the United States Code starting around 18 USC 920 or so. to sell guns as a business one needs a FEDERAL FIREARMS LICENSE. book keeping requirements on GUNS (firearms) are strict
> 
> the federal government treats CROSSBOWS AND COMPOUND BOWS exactly the same. Most crossbows don't shoot any faster than MOST COMPOUND BOws. IN reality the average HUNTING Crossbow shoots at the same speed as the average HUNTING COmpound bow. THe compound bow is ballistically a little more efficient. I can also tell you there are very few crossbows that can be aimed directly at a 100 yard target and hit at that aiming point. In other words, you have to aim above the center of a 100 Yard bullseye. Most compound bows-that is not true. People with forty pound compound bows can hit the center of a FITA target at 100 yards while aiming directly at that center.
> 
> so again your claims seem to be in error. guns are not something that fire something at an accelerated rate. that is just a term you made up


This guy will argue with a brick wall. Just one question... can anyone with a 40, 50, 60 lb bow shoot level at a target at 40 yards and actually hit the target? Much less 100 yards? Am I the only one seeing this claim or am I misunderstanding (I may misunderstand you as I do not actually competitivly shoot). Why do I have more than one pin for 10-100 yards then...I got jipped. 

Second off, are you telling me that a crossbow is not a gun? You never did actually define a gun by the way, just danced around the fact that you understand a law you never explained. Here is from a few dictionaries from the web, not law dictionaries, thats at my office, you can pick and choose all you like, I'm sure you can find one to say what you want also...

Firearm A firearm is a tool that projects either single or multiple projectiles at high velocity through a *controlled explosion.* a small arms weapon, as a rifle or pistol, from which a projectile is fired by *gunpowder. *

Gun A weapon incorporating a metal tube from which bullets, shells, or other missiles are propelled by explosive force (this can be air, or kinetic energy, NOT POWDER as powder is defined in Firearm), typically making a characteristic loud, sharp noise 
A device for discharging something in a required direction 
(My Favorite) any device for shooting something under pressure: a paint gun; a staple gun; Pellet Gun

Is it a gun? no it's a crossbow. can it classified as a gun, Yes, but in reality so can a bow. You still are arguing a mute point to your own 30 year bias mentality. 

This will be my last post on this subject, if you would like to argue your point with me, or prove me wrong, PM me please, dont keep making people read your one sided thinking. You have totally missed the point of a poll post, I feel like I'm in a mental battle with someone ill-equipped. I have read your other posts, and you trash and belittle other peoples OPINIONS if they do not share yours, we have a word for that, *bully*. You dont have to respond to ever post made that you dont agree with. Maybe after 30 years, you need to change your way of thinking and open up to a new idea, heck we cant all be right all the time. 

Alas, I appreciate everyones time in reading, and I hope my OPINION does not hurt you in any way. I pray you dont all throw your crossbows away due to my horrible OPINION and greed to keep my fellow hunters out of my own personal woods. 

I could rant and flame all day, but it's late and by now, my readers are over it I know. Not only that but these petty arguments do nothing but hurt all hunters. Thanks again ya'll, and I'll see you in the woods, Bring your bow, or crossbow where legal.


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## Jim C

calling a crossbow a gun-given that crossbows predate "guns" by thousands of years" pretty much label you as being ignorant of history.

Crossbows don't shoot arrows out of tubes so you FAIL again

I do employment law. IN employment law it is rare to see anyone admitting to say being anti-Black, anti female or anti-disabled. BUt we see thousands of cases where someone is fired or not promoted due to claims that the employer was biased. The way the law works-if the plaintiff can establish what is known as a _prima facie_ case of discrimination (ie they are a member of a protected group, they suffered an "adverse action" and a similarly situated peer who is not a member of the protected group was not subject to an adverse employment action despite doing the same thing as the plaintiff) then the Employer must advance a non-discriminatory reason for the employer's action. IF THE EMPLOYER CANNOT or if the GIVEN REASON IS PROVEN TO BE FALSE then normally a presumption is created that the EMPLOYER's reason is nothing more than a facade for discrimination.

I submit to that the reasons advanced by the anti crossbow crowd are specious and have no merit and thus the real reason behind the opposition is one of greed and discrimination. YOu anti xbow types have never come up with a rational objective argument to treat crossbows differently than release fired compound bows and since you cannot do anything other than make silly claims that "crossbows are guns" etc your proffered argument fails and is a facade for discrimination


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## rn3

What is the reason a person would choose a crossbow over a hand drawn bow when getting


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## Jim C

rn3 said:


> What is the reason a person would choose a crossbow over a hand drawn bow when getting


who cares? why does a person choose a compound and release over a trad bow and fingers? Carbon arrows over wood?


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## Tim50

rn3 said:


> What is the reason a person would choose a crossbow over a hand drawn bow when getting


To some it KEEPS them in the archery woods, to others it brings them BACK to the archery woods to most it is JUST a choice of weapon. Why would you choose a Ford over a Chevy? Not rocket science!!! Freedom of choice.


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## wheelie

Targetnut said:


> I think also that there needs to be a requirement for weapon specific hunter education. Like a special certificate for firearms, Archery, Crossbows, etc. No exceptions or "grandfathering" either.


With all due respect, Ones like you then, when something happens and U can no longer shoot a vertical bow would be the first one in line screaming you should be grandfathered in! I live by watch what you say, because it just could happen. Be like Canada, someday we will even need a licence just to flush our toliet in our own home! Some goverment worker will get a big bonus for coming up with the idea for making goverment more money.


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## Cold Weather

Jim C said:


> calling a crossbow a gun-given that crossbows predate "guns" by thousands of years" pretty much label you as being ignorant of history.
> 
> Crossbows don't shoot arrows out of tubes so you FAIL again
> 
> I do employment law. IN employment law it is rare to see anyone admitting to say being anti-Black, anti female or anti-disabled. BUt we see thousands of cases where someone is fired or not promoted due to claims that the employer was biased. The way the law works-if the plaintiff can establish what is known as a _prima facie_ case of discrimination (ie they are a member of a protected group, they suffered an "adverse action" and a similarly situated peer who is not a member of the protected group was not subject to an adverse employment action despite doing the same thing as the plaintiff) then the Employer must advance a non-discriminatory reason for the employer's action. IF THE EMPLOYER CANNOT or if the GIVEN REASON IS PROVEN TO BE FALSE then normally a presumption is created that the EMPLOYER's reason is nothing more than a facade for discrimination.
> 
> I submit to that the reasons advanced by the anti crossbow crowd are specious and have no merit and thus the real reason behind the opposition is one of greed and discrimination. YOu anti xbow types have never come up with a rational objective argument to treat crossbows differently than release fired compound bows and since you cannot do anything other than make silly claims that "crossbows are guns" etc your proffered argument fails and is a facade for discrimination


very true. these anti xbow types with their logic is amazing. really child like. no wonder they keep losing state to state.

why dont they just go bowhunting with their weapon of choice and allow others and show the respect to others to do the same?


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## Tim50

Cold Weather said:


> very true. these anti xbow types with their logic is amazing. really child like. no wonder they keep losing state to state.
> 
> why dont they just go bowhunting with their weapon of choice and allow others and show the respect to others to do the same?


Spoken as a FELLOW hunter. This is how hunters SHOULD support hunters. In todays hunting climate we need all the allies we can muster! What we DON'T need is hunter against hunter over something as simple as his/her weapon of choice!


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## MadBullArchery

i think a crossbow has some advantages over a compound, and some disadvantages...my vote is yes. I hunt in ohio and love it. And if you think its an unfair advantage, how bout all the compound guys shooting 100 yards these days? you cant tell me a crossbow is any better than these trained killers. Its no different than how the trad guys felt when the compound came about...its just that it impacts you and most dont want more competition. I think you may have less wounded animals. Lets face it a crossbow is easier to learn and can be shot accurately out to 40 yards with very little practice. I love my bow and shoot often, the problem is a lot of people dont and cant hit squat. They still try though and wound deer. With a crossbow I think you would have less wounded deer. Just my opinions...but I like it. I am a die hard bowhunter but do like to play with the crossbow too. I welcome anyone who want to hunt by any legal means. Especially archery, crossbow and muzzeloader guys. OOOOO and on that subject how bout inlines vs flintlock! Come on guys....I just think we should welcome all kinds. Our sport of hunting needs us all.


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## cynic

Well all I can say is that Florida bowhunters were sucessful in keeping xbows out of archert season. Instead FWC extended the xbow(special season) by 30 days to run concurrent with archery season.. Boy did they show us xbow hunters


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## ftshooter

If crossbows allow more people to hunt like women and kids is that not a good thing for our side as hunters ?


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## Jim C

ftshooter said:


> If crossbows allow more people to hunt like women and kids is that not a good thing for our side as hunters ?


Depends-if you are concerned with the sport and its future than yes it is a great thing. If you worry that some guy with a crossbow might "steal" your deer than no. You appear to be in the former camp. I salute you:thumbs_up


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## xtreme

There is such a fine line here. Yes a crossbow is considered a firearm, but most dont shoot faster or farther than a regular bow. So distance or shooting thru brush it has no advantage. Scope ?? you still have to take in the yardage so you do have to use it like a sight. Being ready to shoot, well that is where I see the differance. Not much of one, but there is. 
The thing I see is for hunters that want to bow hunt but cant due to injury or other medical condition. I am in full support of that. But I also think about the humane way. In Mo. there is no min. draw # limit on archery. So that can let anyone shoot a deer with any bow. Under draw weight can lead to in humane shots or severly lost and wounded animals. My niece is only 11 and she loves to hunt. She is small and cant handle a rifle more than a .223 ( My opinion here to small of a gun for deer ) So she had to hunt during youth rifle with my crossbow. 
My opinion, youth under the age of 14 with a Hunters Ed. Cert. should be able to during bow. Women should be able to with a Hunter Ed. Cert. also if they cant pull a heavy enough weight to make a clean kill. My wife is only able to shoot about # 38's comfortably. I limit here to a clear open full broadside only shot out to 20 yrds. I have seen her pass on nice deer that was quartering away or just outside 20 yrds. 
So my thoughts are the youth under 14 is allowed. Women that are not confident or capable of pulling at least 45 # is allowed. Hunters with diabilties are allowed. Grown men that are able to use a bow are not allowed. 
There is such a fine line in this question, it should be who and not when is it allowed.


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## Tim50

xtreme said:


> There is such a fine line here. *Yes a crossbow is considered a firearm*, .


Where? Is an FFL needed to purchase or transfer? Is this YOUR opinion? You are correct in one statement. "It should be who and not when". Full inclusion for ALL hunters during any season bows are legal!!


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## Curve1

I wonder if we've missed something here?? I dont care to hunt with a crossbow, but I think that a crossbow is ok myself. We need to watch out with wanting to deny someone the right to use their weapon of choice [within reason]....I mean, obviosly we couldn't allow 50 caliber military machine guns ,ect.
I'm of the opnion that when I fight against a persons right to hunt with a crossbow...I may be eliminating a future ally to help defend my weapon of choice. The crossbow has been around for atleast a thousand years....before the compound. I remember back in the 70's folks among my ranks getting upset about the compound [which was new to the scene]. I never cared for compounds personally, I like my recurves and longbows...but personally I would fight for anyone's right to use a compound or a crossbow....I may need their help one day.


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## Tim50

Curve1 said:


> I wonder if we've missed something here?? I dont care to hunt with a crossbow, but I think that a crossbow is ok myself. We need to watch out with wanting to deny someone the right to use their weapon of choice [within reason]....I mean, obviosly we couldn't allow 50 caliber military machine guns ,ect.
> I'm of the opnion that when I fight against a persons right to hunt with a crossbow...I may be eliminating a future ally to help defend my weapon of choice. The crossbow has been around for atleast a thousand years....before the compound. I remember back in the 70's folks among my ranks getting upset about the compound [which was new to the scene]. I never cared for compounds personally, I like my recurves and longbows...but personally I would fight for anyone's right to use a compound or a crossbow....I may need their help one day.


Great post.......You see the BIG picture........A safe & healthy New Year to you & yours!


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## xtreme

Tim50 said:


> Where? Is an FFL needed to purchase or transfer? Is this YOUR opinion? You are correct in one statement. "It should be who and not when". Full inclusion for ALL hunters during any season bows are legal!!


Well my opinion it would be a primitive weapon much like the black powder,( like the real black powder, not todays that have as much range as some rifles or more. ) but not the bow. ( but the bow is illegal to shoot in some city's as they say it is a lethal wepon so it cant be fired within city limits ) But thats my opinion, just here in Mo. it is considered a firearm. You do have a great point about the FFL, and you also can buy a black powder gun here also (which is considered a firearm ) with out FFL or background check. Now that is something that dont make sense !! 
But that is another topic that would be good to talk about. A felon can not own, buy or be in possession of a firearm. But yet they can go into a sporting goods store and buy a black powder rifle and walk out the door. But since Im a cop I may see things differant. I just think they need to take a closer look at what is a firearm. But since Im on it, I dont think everyone that has a felony in their background should not be able to own a rifle. Say 20 yrs. later after a crime that did not involve violence or guns and has never been in any major trouble, what is wrong with them owning a firearm so they can hunt. I know a few good people that has a felony in their background and has not commited any crime in 10 yrs. other than traffic violations that have become very good citizens and upstanding people, but their right to hunt with a firearm is taken away for good. I have to stop or I will keep talking. But I like your point on the FFL purchase of the crossbow.


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## rattus58

xtreme said:


> Well my opinion it would be a primitive weapon much like the black powder,( like the real black powder, not todays that have as much range as some rifles or more. ) but not the bow. ( but the bow is illegal to shoot in some city's as they say it is a lethal wepon so it cant be fired within city limits ) But thats my opinion, just here in Mo. it is considered a firearm. You do have a great point about the FFL, and you also can buy a black powder gun here also (which is considered a firearm ) with out FFL or background check. Now that is something that dont make sense !!
> But that is another topic that would be good to talk about. A felon can not own, buy or be in possession of a firearm. But yet they can go into a sporting goods store and buy a black powder rifle and walk out the door. But since Im a cop I may see things differant. I just think they need to take a closer look at what is a firearm. But since Im on it, I dont think everyone that has a felony in their background should not be able to own a rifle. Say 20 yrs. later after a crime that did not involve violence or guns and has never been in any major trouble, what is wrong with them owning a firearm so they can hunt. I know a few good people that has a felony in their background and has not commited any crime in 10 yrs. other than traffic violations that have become very good citizens and upstanding people, but their right to hunt with a firearm is taken away for good. I have to stop or I will keep talking. But I like your point on the FFL purchase of the crossbow.


Not so in Hawaii.... felons and everyone else need to have a permit to acquire black powder rifles... you just don't need to register them.

There are all sorts of restrictions here on "weapons" like switchblades and the like... air powered, spring loaded, and a lot more... makes some legal folks illegal if they choose to... selective prosecution... make everything illegal but give people a pass that meet your politics....

Aloha... :beer:


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## Bloodbath

No. It amazes me that the same people are still arguing about this. Seriously, move on to the next topic. This one is beyond beating the dead horse


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## Tim50

Bloodbath said:


> No. It amazes me that the same people are still arguing about this. Seriously, move on to the next topic. This one is beyond beating the dead horse


IMO opposing crossbow inclusion in Wisconsin IS beating a dead horse.....To each his/her own....


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## John316

If you would have asked me this question 10 years ago or so I would be one of those kicking and screaming that I dont think those things should be allowed in the woods during archery season but now that I am in my 50's I see things a little different. I have bow hunted for nearly 30 years but over the last couple of years I have gone from pulling 70+ pounds to 58 pounds and the joints still pop and make funny noises when I do...especially on a cold day. This year MD made the xbow legal during archery season and guess what I now own one. It is fun to shoot but no that much of great advantage over my vbow other then its easier on the old joints...as a matter of fact I have missed two deer with it this year. It is another tool in my arsenal...I can see me using the vbow in early season and the xbow as it get colder...and it is nice to have that option. 

I really dont see what the big deal is...if you dont like them dont use them...its that simple. For example I was never a big proponent of sunday hunting and until a few years ago it wasnt legal here...but now they are allowing it and that's fine but I choose not to hunt on sundays...I hope the ones who do enjoy it but its not for me.


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## Curve1

I apologize....I didn't notice the sticky about not debating crossbows. I have no intention of starting an argument. I geuss if we're just giving our opnion on it...we're not debating.
Here in Alabama, they legalized croosbows about 5 years ago, and I haven't seen nor heard of any negative effects in our state.


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## Carbon Jack

If you hunt with a bow and you hunt with a gun, why would you object to a crossbow?

Have never understood archer's fear of the crossbow. Rather like some who call all small handguns "Saturday Night Specials". A weapon is a weapon is a weapon. I see no difference and don't even care if rifle hunters wanted to hunt during archery season. We as archers can hunt during rifle season if we choose. At least in my state you can. 

Jack


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## a1hoyt.ca

I think in certian situations like my dad a life long bowhunter who can no longer shoot a bow should be able to hunt with a crossbow during bow season he has supported many archery org. He bowhunted for more then 40 years he past it down to his 2 sons and his daughters. He is life long bowman some one like this should not be tossed aside just because he now has a disability due to his job.


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## t hutzler

no matter what you use its still up to the operator they are all just as deadly


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## xring_assassin

I would opt. for "Indifferent" if that was an available option. I live in Alberta - we're seriously getting over-run with whitetails in the area I live in - if it would help get the numbers down BEFORE some major disease wipes them all out - I'm all for it. Personally I love my compound bow - I woulnd't give it up. I would class crossbow as being closer to a bow than a rifle....really I don't care - I think they should be allowed in more then just rifle season though.


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## mr alien x

So why cant we start out younger kids with cross bows? They most likely cannot draw a compound or a long bow but with a cross bow they can get into the woods and be hooked for the rest of their life. When you see many kids hunting is during gun season when up north it is snowing and blowing and can be miserable to hunt in. When kids endure that they will almost never want to go hunting again. But with using a cross bow.... They can be in the woods and be comfortable no coming up looking like an icecube. Once they grow up become stronger they will end up with a regular bow just because that is all you see on tv nowadays and its the "cool thing" to do. And for all the people out there saying archery is for able body and disabled? Ill like to see your opinion when you become older and have arthritis and cant pull a bow back with hunting clothes on. Think ahead in life. You can see your self complaining to your wife how you cant go bow hunting anymore because its just too tuff on you. But if you had a cross bow you could be in the woods enjoying yourself.


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## rn3

mr alien x said:


> So why cant we start out younger kids with cross bows? They most likely cannot draw a compound or a long bow but with a cross bow they can get into the woods and be hooked for the rest of their life. When you see many kids hunting is during gun season when up north it is snowing and blowing and can be miserable to hunt in. When kids endure that they will almost never want to go hunting again. But with using a cross bow.... They can be in the woods and be comfortable no coming up looking like an icecube. Once they grow up become stronger they will end up with a regular bow just because that is all you see on tv nowadays and its the "cool thing" to do. And for all the people out there saying archery is for able body and disabled? Ill like to see your opinion when you become older and have arthritis and cant pull a bow back with hunting clothes on. Think ahead in life. You can see your self complaining to your wife how you cant go bow hunting anymore because its just too tuff on you. But if you had a cross bow you could be in the woods enjoying yourself.


If a child can't pull a bow back, they probably can't cock a crossbow either, at that point I believe they are to young to be hunting. In my state if you had bad arthritis you could get a crossbow permit because you would be considered handicaped. If your not handicaped in Mo. there will be no crosssbow for you.


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