# Working on hinge really helping with thumb trigger



## ron w (Jan 5, 2013)

I shoot my thumb trigger exactly the same as my hinge. the back tension rotation that fires the hinge, also fires the thumb trigger. as a matter of fact, my thumb trigger is the back up release to my hinge, so changing from one to the other at any time is just a matter of which release is in my hand no change in process of execution is needed.


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

Sort of goes hand in hand with me believing you can't learn back tension (forms of) unless you learn with a hinge release. And then I practice with a hinge to keep me honest with my thumb releases. 

My present training aids; The string, with permission by my Therapist, is set for a bit of tension right at my draw length. The rubber band was set by my Therapist just this week, just tied knots until there was enough tension for me to know there was tension (I might of cheated). Just checked it, 7 pounds. I just draw, anchor, add that tiny bit of draw and wait for the releases to fire. No rotation, just bio-mechanics as field14 would say, I guess.
Not really all that different than what Doug Springer of Stanislawski instructed me when starting to train with a hinge. I get it just right and the string will fly off my thumb and I have to go pick it up....But then strict orders by my Therapist; "I am not to over do it."

In another thread we discussed bow weight and it's effects and I told of what my Therapist said, turning that pressure loose can hurt you. Try one of the training rigs and see if there isn't effective come back of the release arm when the release fires. Then imagine more than the 7 pounds I have.


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## WCork (Apr 22, 2010)

For those that shoot both a hinge and a thumb button....do you keep your thumb on the barrel of your hinge as if it were a trigger, so that you are basically firing both style of releases the same? Or do you remove your thumb from the barrel and fire your hinge with only your fingers?


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## ron w (Jan 5, 2013)

for me, it comes off the barrel with the hinge and obviously stays on the barrel with the thumb trigger. the idea is that the rotation from rhomboid contraction in back tension causes the thumb to load the barrel as the outside of the release rotates with the arm, firing the release. obviously with a hinge there is no barrel loading required, just the rotation,... but that element is exactly the same in both instances.


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## Mahly (Dec 18, 2002)

Pretty much the same here. I take it off of the safety peg, and I move my thumb up to touch the ring finger when shooting a hinge.
With the thumb release, I draw with it off the barrel, then wrap it a bit with the thumb. Keep pulling with the back and it goes of.
Without seeing it, I can't say for sure if it's much of a rotation, or the other fingers yielding slightly transferring more tension to the thumb, firing the release. 
Follow through looks/feels pretty much the same with both releases.


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## cbrunson (Oct 25, 2010)

Mahly said:


> Curiosity only: who else changes up depending on the game their are shooting that day?


I do it differently than most say they do. (imagine that) When I am outside in the wind, I shoot my hinge because it forces me to be patient and make a good shot when everything in me wants to just time it on a drive-by. I am more accurate in perfect conditions with my button, so I shoot it indoors.


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## Mahly (Dec 18, 2002)

Just goes to show, different stroke for different folks! [emoji106]🏻


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## RCR_III (Mar 19, 2011)

I shoot a hinge for indoors and outdoors too. I've notice that outdoors when it's windy I'll use two different methods depending on the wind that day. If the wind comes in spells and I can get my shot off inbetween I will just be a little more aggressive and speed up the timing if I need to. If it's constant wind then I've noticed I will pause my shot usually as I drift off target until I get back centered up again. So similar to what you're doing with your thumb button.


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## ron w (Jan 5, 2013)

i'm just the opposite . i'm much more accurate and confident with my hinge both indoors and outdoors, windy or not. shooting a thumb trigger usually culminates in my putting it back in the pouch from making too many errors after several shots. I find it easier to deliberate a shot if need be, in windy conditions with my hinge than I do with a thumb trigger. when I get the urge to deliberately fire my thumb trigger I end up getting timid in windy conditions, the thumb trigger then goes back in the pouch for good.


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

cbrunson said:


> I do it differently than most say they do. (imagine that) When I am outside in the wind, I shoot my hinge because it forces me to be patient and make a good shot when everything in me wants to just time it on a drive-by. I am more accurate in perfect conditions with my button, so I shoot it indoors.


Where you from? Those boys down Texas way and Oklahoma say the wind gets so bad it'll carry you off.


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## cbrunson (Oct 25, 2010)

Not that bad here. Gusts to 30 mph at times. It does blow a lot though.


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## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

I am right there with you mahly, even though I have some thumb triggers that were given to me by tru ball I started my journey to become a hinge shooter so my thumb trigger shooting has always just been very limited. I will shoot a thumb trigger from time to time maybe once a month outside or indoor but that is about it for time spent with one. 

With that said, some of my favorite shots on a 3d range have came from a thumb trigger that I pulled out of the 3d stool and made a shot off a wooden deck at a target that is on a severe downward angle. Also, I have shot many many 60x rounds over the last few years with a hinge but the day that I shot one with a thumb trigger is one of my favorites. It is one of my favorites because I am not a thumb trigger guy but I used my aiming and execution lessons learned from hinge shooting to simply pick up and produce a nice score with thumb trigger.


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## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

Mahly, when I listen to you talk about shooting in the wind I can hear some of the concerns that I also had just a little over a year or so ago. I carried a index finger release in my 3d stool just in case there was a shot where the wind was gusting and I just needed to punch a shot and get the arrow on its way. During that time I was attending the asa shootdowns and they were in the open on a ball field or somewhere similar to that and many times there were wind gusts and I sure didn't see levi or anyone else reaching for punchable trigger releases. I saw pro shooters draw back and take their time and smoke 14 rings over and over regardless of the windy conditions and it really messed with me. How in the crap are they hitting the 14 ring over and over with a hinge or thumb trigger without punching the trigger. 

Well, late last summer it finally happened for me where I was in my back yard and I only had 30 minutes to shoot after my daughters ball game or something and the wind was just horrible and swriling. I went out and set up at 40 yards like usual and for 30 minutes for the first time ever something had changed internally and I just kept smoking the 12 ring over and over even though my pin was getting blown off the 12 ring every stinking shot. That night after it got dark I had a lot of soul searching to do because I really didn't understand what had allowed me to shoot like that in those conditions.

It all came down to all my training with the hinge eliminating all the target panic from my system so that when it is windy I can come to anchor and settle in to my anchor and apply some good back tension preload and then start floating on the spot and when I hear a strong gust getting ready to hit me I just pause and allow it to blow me off and then as my pin is coming back to the 12 I start up my execution again and as my pin reaches the 12 ring hopefully it fires or it can float for a while until I get blown off again and if I do then I will pause again.

The key here is that I start my execution about a inch before my pin arrives at the 12 ring, on these days I am not going to be as pin point accurate as a normal perfect day so I don't wait for my pin to reach the 12 ring and then start, I start one inch off the 12 ring and it usually takes a couple seconds for my execution to fire anyway so by the time I get there it is usually good to go.

Another thing I like about this start one inch off trick is that the small amount of momentum that my bow has as it goes towards the 12 ring is a predictable thing that the wind has to fight to change so If I am coming from the left to the 12 ring and one inch from the 12 ring I start my execution that momentum to the right many times will pass right on through a little gust of wind right on to the 12 ring. 

When you wait until you get to the 12 ring to start your bow pauses and settles on the 12 ring and has no momentum so any gust of wind will affect it immediately and in some random direction and then you are in a constant battle to fix the problem. I don't like this method, I like to work with the small amount of momentum and use it to my advantage.


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## Mahly (Dec 18, 2002)

I get that. Absolutely.
My issues with the hinge have always been being distracted by feeling the movement of the release. It's a mental issue alone.
That's why I developed my personal firing engine to be one where I can't feel it move at all. I KNOW it is, but I can't feel the rate of rotation.
Using the normal methods of manipulation I could feel either my index relaxing, ring ringer squeezing, or whole hand stretching.
Using back tension to fire the hinge, wasn't the answer either as at some point continually adding back tension messed with my float/hold.
This method is very hard to "pause"... And for now, I believe that aspect is helping my hinge shooting indoors. The problem outdoors is when a gust comes, I can't pause to get the pin back on target.
This is where the thumb trigger comes in.
Obviously, it takes a very different firing engine ( most similar to how Griv teaches a hinge ), the result is very similar to how you describe your shot with a hinge in the wind.
There is zero impulse to punch, only I can pause the engine if I get blown off target, then get right back into the engine.
With the thumb trigger there isn't perceptible movement, so my wacky brain is kept happy aiming.
I realize my issues are a little out of the norm, so I continue to suggest to others to learn your release firing engines as well as Griv's, as I think these will work better for most.
One of my biggest debts is to you for getting me to look at hinge set up much differently... This has in turn carried over to how I draw with my trigger, and has eliminated a lot of the inconsistency issues I was having with it.
Thanx again for that!!!!!


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## RCR_III (Mar 19, 2011)

Mahly, are you getting one of the HBX's? 

I'm curious how that release would feel to you with your shot needing to not feel a normal hinge movement.


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## Mahly (Dec 18, 2002)

I'm am very intrigued by the HBX! Not sure I can justify the cost without at least trying it out first.
Guessing I'll wait till they start to show up in the classifieds.


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## CHILLX#1 (Jan 21, 2015)

shooting a hinge in the wind can be tricky but you MUST commit yourself 100% to the shot 
I would not recommend changing your set up according to the conditions


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## ron w (Jan 5, 2013)

Chill, most guys go to a trigger of some sort when the wind blows. the rare and few stay with the hinge. they do have their disadvantage in windy conditions, only those with very well developed shot executions and the discipline to control it, can stay with them comfortably.


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## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

I like the things that I am hearing from Mahly in this thread and if there are some new hinge shooters out there reading this stuff make sure that you pay attention to the way he is talking about his progressions as this last year or so has went by. Mahly is no different than any of us here on archery talk, he is a guy that shoots at home and works on his approach to sending a arrow to the target. 

I can remember the first time he mentioned that he had came up with his own personal method to fire his hinge and it being a combination of a couple methods out there. That is what hinge shooting really comes down to in the end, it is a release that allows you to personalize its setup and speed and feel and ultimately send you to some sweet feeling shooting.


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