# Playing with stabilizer weight(s)



## JV NC

In an attempt to find the "I definitely don't want that much weight", I added a lot of weight to my stabilizer(s) setup. What I found was.....a really tight group. But, that group was low and left of my previous POI. Is this normal?

Also....I toned it back from the above....and still saw my POI hitting left of where it was with a lighter stabilizer(s) weight setup. Same question as above (normal)?

It almost felt as though the bow was torqueing to the left on the shot (back end to the right) with the new weights added. Is THIS normal?

I have perused the forums, and I can't find the answer to what I really want to know. In my VERY intermediate mind (which is new to open setups), my first inclination is to set up my bow "balanced". But, I can only do this in the static (not full draw) position. Is there another train of thought that would incorporate what's happening to the bow (and what advantages I need to try to take) when the bow's at full draw? 

If there's simply some reference material you can point me to....without having to re-hash something I may have missed, please direct me to it (with my thanks).

If you take the time to respond, can you tell me (for reference ONLY) what you're running? I started at what I had weights for....which was 8oz. on the front of a 30" rod.....with 16oz. on the back of a 12" rod in the rear. Like I said, it's super stable....but the POI thing puzzled me. I lowered it to (same rods) 6 in front and 14 in back.....and my grouping got sporadic. 

Was there an "aha" moment for you......and/or did that come a long way into a LOT of trial and error?

Thanks again.


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## cbrunson

How you set it up is strictly preference in my opinion. You will see 30 different set ups with 30 different guys. I personally like to set mine to hold level with a completely relaxed hand and bow arm at full draw. I run enough back weight to keep it from falling forward after the shot. I don’t use the weight on the stabs to add mass weight to the bow. I only add enough to slow down the movement, then add weight to the riser to fine tune mass weight. 

POI should not change. You are likely unintentionally torqueing the bow or collapsing on the shot to compensate for the different feel.


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## Padgett

Don't over think the change in poi, just change your windage and be done with it and enjoy your new tighter float. More than likely you didn't have the bow dialed in as good as you thought and it just needs to be moved a little.


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## SonnyThomas

I'd agree with cbrunson. I think point of impact could change, but again agree with cbrunson of collapsing. You just don't throw weight on and expect all things to be good or better. I takes time getting use to the heavier weight.
And some see all the weight some of the top shooters have on their stabs. Hey, Reo, Jeff, Levi and Tim are pretty good size with muscles....


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## cbrunson

Padgett said:


> Don't over think the change in poi, just change your windage and be done with it and enjoy your new tighter float. More than likely you didn't have the bow dialed in as good as you thought and it just needs to be moved a little.


This could be true as well.


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## Padgett

There is a fine line between getting into some setup that is so extreme to your body that your muscles aren't ready to handle it and you can tire out really quick. I personally shoot a lot of weight and I can shoot it all day long and never feel the effects because I am a high volume shooter but what I do see when I make a change is very subtle and usually only a click or so if any.

For example I have been shooting 33 ounces on my 15 inch rear bar for a long time and I for some reason put less up front around 12 or so and about 3 weeks ago I was shooting in the back yard really good at 40 yards and I had been a thread like this one earlier that day and I decided to go in and find my other weight that is more like 20 ounces and stick it on for a while. Well, all i can say is why in the hell did I take it off in the first place because it is freaking awesome. With that said my point of impact did change just enough at 40 yards that my arrow was now really dead on, I had been hitting on the top edge of the 12 ring at 40 yards with my bow for a couple of days and I was thinking about changing my needle just a little on the sight tape to get it dead on perfect but I hadn't yet. Well with the heavier weight it changed the bow just a little which brought the arrow down about a quarter inch, so I was dead on. So yeah the point of impact did change a very little but I really don't think I would have noticed at 20 yards and for me to really notice I had to be a good enough shooter to hit a 12 ring at 40 yards almost every time. 

The one thing I will say that I think most guys make a huge mistake with stabilizers and getting them set up is not having enough weight. The stupid things only come with 3 ounces and the weight is so freaking expensive that people only buy a few and they play around with them taking off one little ounce. I don't like doing things like that and it is why I like to lay out at least 40 ounces of weight on my 3d stool and then try a variety of combinations and find one that really performs well.

Also make sure that you tune your bow with your fully rigged up stabs because if you tune it as a bare bow the tune job will change once you put the stabs back on.


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## JV NC

So, the 16oz (+ 12" bar) in the back is childs play....lol?

If it is....it is. I have no idea what others run. I've shot 2 events with an open setup. My background in shooting has always been HC. If not for the field events I want to shoot allowing both setups (and I don't want to be at an equipment disadvantage), I still would (shoot HC).

Thanks for helping on something that's very new to me.


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## SonnyThomas

JV NC said:


> So, the 16oz (+ 12" bar) in the back is childs play....lol?
> 
> If it is....it is. I have no idea what others run. I've shot 2 events with an open setup. My background in shooting has always been HC. If not for the field events I want to shoot allowing both setups (and I don't want to be at an equipment disadvantage), I still would (shoot HC).
> 
> Thanks for helping on something that's very new to me.


My bow; 30" with 10 degree drop quick disconnect and 2 ounces on the front. Two 12" back bars with quick disconnects, right has 2 ounces and left has 3 ounces.


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## Padgett

Your correct and perfect and most optimal setup has nothing to do with light or heavy, it has everything to do with you finding the perfect setup. I know lots of guys who bought stabs and they got 12 or so ounces of weight and they move those 12 ounces around until they find something that works. To me this is a very small window to play around with and give a very limited look into what is possible. By having access to 40 to 50 ounces of weight you can then spend a few weeks trying different combinations and when you find one that really stands out you can write it down and move on to other ones and by the end of two weeks or so you can have two or three really good ones and then spend another month shooting with those three and see which one gives you the feel that you are looking for.


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## Rick!

JV NC said:


> So, the 16oz (+ 12" bar) in the back is childs play....lol?
> 
> If it is....it is. I have no idea what others run. I've shot 2 events with an open setup. My background in shooting has always been HC. If not for the field events I want to shoot allowing both setups (and I don't want to be at an equipment disadvantage), I still would (shoot HC).
> 
> Thanks for helping on something that's very new to me.


I run 10oz on my 15" left vee bar, 6oz on the 12" right vee bar and between 8 and 10 on my 30" front. But, with the 30" front, it takes more settle time than 4-6oz on a 33" front. I will also add or subtract an ounce on the front depending on the day. Tight groups will happen with added weight sometimes, and then several things can happen after 30-60 shots, or more. You might hit low erratically, you might drop out every time your form is improper, meaning if you are lazy on transfer or BT, the bow drops and activates the release. Sometimes, everything gels and you'll have found your new baseline for your combination. Some say it may take weeks for a weight change to settle in, I'm not in that camp. I know right away if the change was positive or negative and within 60 shots if it is where I need to be.


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## dunmoab

Iswitched to freestyle this past fall for indoor season. I started playing with the weights using a 12" rear and a 30" rear. Ended up with a hair under 16 oz. Up front and just over 27 out back. This gives my bow(specialist) a really solid feel and stays dead even on the shot. I started light and kept adding weight till my groups got tight. This also was brought to be moving the rear angled down and swung out till the left and right grouping got real tight.
And the other...yes my poi changes moving from bowhunter stabs to freestyle setup. Changing nothing else but the stabs. Not much mind you but it does change.


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## chilipowder

POI will change slightly as you change the pressure distribution on your hand. When you change the balance ratio front/back it will change the pressure distribution in your hand (usually only slightly, but just enough to need a sight adjustment). Some people are very perceptive and can keep the same hand pressure distribution and thus the same POI straight away when changing the front/back balance. Sometimes a 'perfect' left/right balance in your hand will still have the POI to one side during the shot. In this case you can fine tune the left/right balance so the POI is good. Grip pressure and where you put it can really influence the POI of the shot. By grip pressure I mean lateral pressure as well and vertical. Slight lateral pressure changes can cause 'tuning headaches' for some.

Currently I am: 9oz 33" front and 16oz 12" rear (lower mount straight back). I have been up to 14oz front and 25oz rear, so my total bow weight varies from time to time. Only thing I noticed is I often group best with ~ 1.78 rear/front ratio, but I can vary my total stabilizer weights depending on how I feel. It's that certain pressure distribution that I feel in my hand that just feels good no matter what total weight I use.





JV NC said:


> In an attempt to find the "I definitely don't want that much weight", I added a lot of weight to my stabilizer(s) setup. What I found was.....a really tight group. But, that group was low and left of my previous POI. Is this normal?
> 
> Also....I toned it back from the above....and still saw my POI hitting left of where it was with a lighter stabilizer(s) weight setup. Same question as above (normal)?
> 
> It almost felt as though the bow was torqueing to the left on the shot (back end to the right) with the new weights added. Is THIS normal?
> 
> I have perused the forums, and I can't find the answer to what I really want to know. In my VERY intermediate mind (which is new to open setups), my first inclination is to set up my bow "balanced". But, I can only do this in the static (not full draw) position. Is there another train of thought that would incorporate what's happening to the bow (and what advantages I need to try to take) when the bow's at full draw?
> 
> If there's simply some reference material you can point me to....without having to re-hash something I may have missed, please direct me to it (with my thanks).
> 
> If you take the time to respond, can you tell me (for reference ONLY) what you're running? I started at what I had weights for....which was 8oz. on the front of a 30" rod.....with 16oz. on the back of a 12" rod in the rear. Like I said, it's super stable....but the POI thing puzzled me. I lowered it to (same rods) 6 in front and 14 in back.....and my grouping got sporadic.
> 
> Was there an "aha" moment for you......and/or did that come a long way into a LOT of trial and error?
> 
> Thanks again.


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## strandbowhunter

> just change your windage and be done with it and enjoy your new tighter float.


Dead on with this comment. Only other thing is to play with the position of the back weight. My bow wanted to torque when I had the weight close to the bow, but balanced in perfect in my hand when I pushed out away from my strings. Just something to think about.


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## Carbofastdirect

Your POI will change with a change in weight how much depends on how much of a change you make. 
I agree with Padgett on this one as I like a lot of weight for a steady hold, probably not as much as Padgett but I like 10oz up front with 32oz on the back.

Adding weight to your set up raises its moment of inertia which is the set ups resistance to rotation. The higher the Moment of Inertia the more resistant to torque your set up will be for you.

You just need to balance what works best for you where you can shoot a full round without running out of steam!!


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## tmorelli

Word of caution... It takes good form to run a lot of weight.

The heavier the mass weight of the assembly, the more leverage it has to "unhinge" a low shoulder. This will cause the shoulder to rise and the shooter to lean as the shot develops. It has immediate and long term effects. 

Mass weight and balance must match the holding weight and the shooter's form/shot style. What anyone else does, doesn't matter much.

From my personal examples of winning bows: 

Bow A- 3oz on 30" straight, 11 oz on 12" angled down and back. 8oz on riser mounted low.

Bow B- 4 oz on 30" main 10° down. 22 oz on 12" rear, mounted low and angled down.

Bow C- 5oz on 30" 10° down. 21 oz on 12" mounted low and angled down.

Bow D- 8oz on 30" main 10° down. 15" v-bars, mounted low, angled down and out, 8 on left, 3 on right. 

The point is, even within one shooter, "best" changes and it is on the shooter to find what that is. Give every change time... Instant results don't necessarily equate to a lasting improvement....or that "best" won't change as the shooter changes.


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## SonnyThomas

tmorelli said:


> Word of caution... It takes good form to run a lot of weight.
> 
> The point is, even within one shooter, "best" changes and it is on the shooter to find what that is. Give every change time... Instant results don't necessarily equate to a lasting improvement....or that "best" won't change as the shooter changes.


Yes. I thought I wanted something heavier and after a 2 or 3 weeks things weren't going so good. Pulled off some weights and lots better.


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## Padgett

Yeppers,

What is really cool is that there is a big difference that two bows with the same total weight can have. My bowtech specialist is a relatively light bow and I run heavy weight a lot of weight on the stabs but when my buddy gave me a matthews apex 8 to shoot for a while I took off a lot of weight from the front and rear stabs but kept the overall weight of the setup the same and there was a big difference in feel. I enjoyed shooting the matthews and shot it well but I prefer a light bow with the mass way out on the ends of the stabs instead of on the bow.


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## Tony Bagnall

I was at local ASA shoot..... one of the female pros was shooting in the group a head.. She took few minutes to educate me on the fact I didnt have enough weights on my stabilizers. It was waving all over.... more weight on the front to make the bow dip a little after the shot just dip not fall over And enough on the side so that the bubble stays central on full draw... even move the side bar up and down to get the bubble straight after adding each new weight. forget about POI she said it will change then only change the windage and elevation when I felt the bow was comfortable. My shots were all low left. After a few hours the bow felt good ..... and the arrows all grouped in the same area. So I changed the elevation and windage... I am now read to really take on the shoots... after a few problems with y bow LOL darn module screw popped out after a shot.. now all fixed!!


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## Padgett

I do agree with tmorelli that stabilizer combinations can give a awesome first impression and in the end just don't perform so you have to move on. Just like a new release that you shoot lights out for a couple days and then reality hits, so take your time and do the training and find what works for you. I know that when I first put on 33 ounces in the rear and over 16 oz up front I loved the float and the feel but I got tired quickly and what I did was only shoot one or two arrows at a time in my back yard at 40 or 50 yards and then I went to the target and got my arrows. I did this for a few weeks and during that time I allowed myself to shoot really strong but not stress my system out shooting 6 arrows at a time at short distances where I was only walking 20 yds to get my arrows and shooting again quickly. So my reps were few but really quality ones and over those few weeks I gained strength and then the weight felt normal. 

Now I can shoot for 3 hours indoor shooting a 5-spot target non stop without taking a break and never feel any fatigue setting in.

I will say that one thing you need to do is learn to use some back tension pre load in your shooting instead of just sitting in the valley just touching the wall, when you are just sitting in the valley you are forcing your front end muscles to do way more work to hold up the bow and they are in a constant battle to keep the pin from dropping out the bottom. When you tweak your draw length correctly so that when you come to anchor and add some back tension so that you are now inside the wall a little that back tension assists your front side muscles a bunch and your pin will sit without feeling like it wants to fall out the bottom and everything about your shot will feel positive things from the pre load that you are using.


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## tmorelli

Padgett said:


> I will say that one thing you need to do is learn to use some back tension pre load in your shooting instead of just sitting in the valley just touching the wall, when you are just sitting in the valley you are forcing your front end muscles to do way more work to hold up the bow and they are in a constant battle to keep the pin from dropping out the bottom. When you tweak your draw length correctly so that when you come to anchor and add some back tension so that you are now inside the wall a little that back tension assists your front side muscles a bunch and your pin will sit without feeling like it wants to fall out the bottom and everything about your shot will feel positive things from the pre load that you are using.


I get what you're saying....but just another word of caution for the readers at home.

We want the back in play... we want the back in control....

But, pulling *too hard* in the wall is not a good thing. The back muscles are not going to do much before the arms, wrists, hands, fingers engage and take over. Once that happens, pin motion gets jittery, the shot goes static, we hang up in the release, follow though gets "faked", etc.


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## Jaliv92

Tagged


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## Padgett

That was a great disclaimer by tmorelli on pulling to hard into the wall and the poor affects it can create. There is such a fine line between finding all those things in your shooting that actually compliment you day after day and the things that hurt you.


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## Labs

great read and very helpful at this time for me...thanks


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## WhitBri

I would agree with everything tmorelli and Padgett said. I will also caution about just going and stacking on weight. I know that both guys above worked hard to find their proper dl first but I see it far too often someone trying to get a bow to sit with stabilizers and weights without doing doing the dl work up front. I always tell people to start light and work on form and dl first once your hold is as good as you can get then work on stabilizers to help get a better hold and what I believe is more important and really a stabilizers job is to reduce influence to your already good hold.


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## bigHUN

What holding weight you guys have on your rigs if you need to hang a pickuptruck worth of mass?
Anybody have at least 24 lbs on a hold you can cut the total weight almost like half. I am a high volume and long range shooter (I was at least up to last season  will see now what this year will bring to the table) I can't afford to loose my 55 yo bow arm fighting the gravity, I need it for more important things. I am holding on a 57% letoff from the #58.5 max (modded the 60% modules with twisting cables to get the feel I need to have the form tight).
With a higher holding weight and a bit shorter DL you will tighten the bow between two points, this will cut the float, having a neutral grip will put a POI "somewhere there" and add the stabilizers will keep the POI tight.


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