# Bowhunting over deer feeders



## pinshooter (Jun 11, 2004)

I don't have a problem with it  but I don't know who is shooting two deer with one arrow, no one around my hunting grounds can do that, nor would most hunters I know try. If I have more than one deer at a time under my stand then I wait to get a clear shot on only ONE deer. I'm a live and let live guy when it comes to hunting. If its legal I don't argue or condemn others, again if its legal in their state. The anti-hunters battle against us enough we don't need to battle among ourselves. Thats just my take on it. If its illegal then hunters shouldn't be doing it and I would not support that.

oh I will say I'm mostly a meat hunter. My boys and I eat 3-5 deer a year. If I were a trophy hunter then I would not bait as I will tell you trophy bucks don't make a habit of visiting corn piles in daylight hours.


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## WindWalker (Jan 23, 2005)

> but I don't know who is shooting two deer with one arrow, no one around my hunting grounds can do that, nor would most hunters I know try


If it occurs, it is undoubtedly accidental.


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

Who cares - If you don't like feeders and hunting over feeders - then don't do it. I don't care how anyone else hunts, what they hunt with, where they hunt, whatever - as long as I can hunt the way I want - I could care less how anyone else hunts. P&Y will likely never disqualify hunting over bait - if they did - then do we disqualify hunting on or over an apple tree, a food crop, scents, decoys, etc... Anyone who has ever hunted over bait in the wild knows it is not some easy piece of cake to kill a mature whitetail - especially a mature buck - spikes and basket rack juvenile animals - sure - they are easy to kill over bait or not - but mature animals in the wild are had to kill - period.


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## Mo0se (Sep 24, 2002)

The way I see it, deer have natural feeding areas and as hunters, we scout and intercept them in between bedding/feeding areas. Creating a feeding environment that does not occur naturally is not fair chase IMO. So I do the legwork..that's part of the enjoyment for me. Others may see it differently and laws are what they are. I've never had to do anything but my homework scouting, and working the wind. I don't watch many Hunting shows either..most of those only focus on the size and quantity. I find them very superficial and lacking in quite a few areas..but that's probably another thread.


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## JParanee (Oct 13, 2009)

sharpbroadhead said:


> Who cares - If you don't like feeders and hunting over feeders - then don't do it. I don't care how anyone else hunts, what they hunt with, where they hunt, whatever - as long as I can hunt the way I want - I could care less how anyone else hunts. P&Y will likely never disqualify hunting over bait - if they did - then do we disqualify hunting on or over an apple tree, a food crop, scents, decoys, etc... Anyone who has ever hunted over bait in the wild knows it is not some easy piece of cake to kill a mature whitetail - especially a mature buck - spikes and basket rack juvenile animals - sure - they are easy to kill over bait or not - but mature animals in the wild are had to kill - period.



I agree 

If it legal it's the same as hunting over a corn field or doe in estrus scent.


Does anyone think deer drives are unethical ?


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## WindWalker (Jan 23, 2005)

> If it legal it's the same as hunting over a corn field or doe in estrus scent.


Definitively not!


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## pinshooter (Jun 11, 2004)

JParanee said:


> Does anyone think deer drives are unethical ?


personally I don't think deer should be allowed to drive


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## pinshooter (Jun 11, 2004)

WindWalker said:


> Definitively not!


I would have to disagree with your thoughts on that.


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

exactly JParanee - these guys that act all holier than thou about their hunting usually hunt in areas with a lot of agriculture or concentrated natural food sources - take them and put them in the middle of the Chequamegon National Forest which is thousands of acres of carniforous forest with few or no oaks - no agriculture, and no concentrated natural food sources, and small deer populations per square mile - where the deer eat by browsing - let them try and predict where a deer is going to show up in bow range - it can be done - but it is nothing like hunting in areas with agriculture, concentrated natural feed sources, and larger concentrations of animals in smaller tracts of land.


I am not going to judge any of this and don't care about "fair chase" - because that is subjective and relative to the individual - some think treestands are not fair chase, some think camo is not fair chase, some think guns are not fair chase, and I am sure many anti-hunters think any weapon, including bows are not fair chase. 

This stuff is all nonsense - heck - there are guys who think game cameras are not "fair chase" - and some states ban lighted arrow nocks - it can get ridiculous and the trad and ethic police are jack-booted thugs in my opinion.

I am for freedom - hunt and let hunt - there are things that I personally would not do - but I am not going to stop someone else from doing it - as long as it is not effecting my hunting or other peoples hunting in any significant way, it is not destroying the herd or the habitat - I could care less.


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## JParanee (Oct 13, 2009)

pinshooter said:


> personally I don't think deer should be allowed to drive



Classic


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## JParanee (Oct 13, 2009)

WindWalker said:


> Definitively not!


I respect your opinion


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## benofthehood (May 18, 2011)

It is certainly not my cup of tea and as Ken alluded too regarding state land ... most of my hunting is done on deer that browse ... The idea of an automated feeder is a bit of anathema to me . Mind you , here in Oz we are a bit behind the times as I am yet to actually see a tree stand in real life either ...

However ... it isn't my hunt ... it is someone else's and as I don't think it is my place to condemn nor condone others methods as long as they are legal . Also ,i could see great value in such a practice from a management perspective in terms of identification and sex targeting by game depts etc


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## JParanee (Oct 13, 2009)

sharpbroadhead said:


> exactly JParanee -
> 
> I am for freedom - hunt and let hunt - there are things that I personally would not do - but I am not going to stop someone else from doing it - as long as it is not effecting my hunting or other peoples hunting in any significant way, it is not destroying the herd or the habitat - I could care less.



I agree with that 

Personally I have never hunted over a feeder but I have hunted on travel corridors that lead to feeders  

It is not allowed in my zone so I really don't have many opportunities to hunt over a feeder

If it where allowed here in my zone I would definitely sit with one of my kids over one


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## guyver (Jan 3, 2012)

If your hunting land that is surrounded by others using "bait", what choice do you have? Hard to compete with that. 

Heard of a group of hunters that brought out dump trucks full of corn and dumped it on the roads on the edge of their property.


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## marc weier (May 26, 2009)

My only problem with it is that you do all the scouting and then someone sets up a bait site and changes the pattern!


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## Mo0se (Sep 24, 2002)

I've lived and hunted in Montana, Kansas, Wyoming, and Arkansas. 3 of those states are non agricultural. Where I currently live in NW Arkansas there are no crops..so it makes me holier than thou that I don't need to hunt over bait? So it's not ok to have my opinion on what my definition of a hunt is? Heaven help the guy that does his homework..he is evidently the trad police? Really? Give me a break.. sitting over a feeder is not hunting..it's target practice.


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## MAC 11700 (Feb 22, 2011)

I think hunting over a feeder should be outlawed.There is a major difference in hunting with sexual scents during the 
rut and a actual food sources...the scents won't engrain 
on a deers behavior and cause them to return year after year.Natural food will...placing a feeder and then hunting over it is baiting IMHO...but different strokes for different folks as the saying goes..and if legal..knock yourself out...


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

if feeders and bait are banned - then so should food crops.

I have never hunted over a feeder - feeders are not legal in my state - but we can use up to 2 gallons of scattered bait - and two gallons of scattered bait does not change anything for anyone I have actually seen deer walk past the bait and keep browsing and never touch the bait. 

But - a large food plot with plants that are specific to attract deer and other hunted animals, sometimes genetically modified to be more appealing to the animals does change patterns and does change how deer behave - a person with a large food plot could attrack and keep deer on his property for the entire hunting season - nobody can do that with a few gallons of bait.

I think it is the height of hypocrisy when people plant food crops - but oppose baiting.

I don't care what anyone does - but don't be a hypocrite about it - if you want to ban one - then ban it all - but I am not a dictator - I am for freedom and if joe blow enjoys hunting over feeders - more power to him and if joe smith likes still hunting - good for him, and if johnny B good likes to do deer drives - awesome - and if jerry berry likes to hunt with hounds - have at it - I don't care and do not feel a need to force my ethics on anyone.


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## WindWalker (Jan 23, 2005)

> it's the same as hunting over a corn field or doe in estrus scent.


Depending on the region, a population of whitetails can have a habitat area as large as several-hundred acres and can/will range for several miles in search of food in accordance with weather, time of year, pressure, etc.

Here is an Ariel view of one territory I hunt in. Just this section is vast and is but a snapshot of a thousands of acres of agriculture fields and large and small state-planted food sources; not to mention the large amounts of natural foods that grows in the areas. All those areas you see that are not woodland,are agriculture fields that are large and interconnected for miles upon miles. Throughout the fields, are treelines, creeks, dry beds, shallow gullies, etc.

Now; on any given day , time of day, time of year, weather conditions, hunting pressures, wind direction(s), etc, where should I setup and be assured the deer will come into my fire zone and gather about as to compare this hunting with hunting over a "feeder?"


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## MAC 11700 (Feb 22, 2011)

> if feeders and bait are banned - then so should food crops.





> I think it is the height of hypocrisy when people plant food crops - but oppose baiting.
> 
> I don't care what anyone does - but don't be a hypocrite about it - if you want to ban one - then ban it all- but I am not a dictator


First off I'm not a hypocrite..and take offence at your calling me one..or anyone else..Keep your name calling to yourself.

Second..stop telling people what they should or shouldn't do..

Third...if you can't understand the differences in planting food crops or living in a agricultural disctrict that allows hunting and that of having a stand set up specifically for hunting over a mechanical feeder..then your the one who has a problem. Most small food plots are there for other purposes other than hunting...not all are used as you are describing...Other are...and such people hunt near them..and some times over them..Most food plots benifit all of the wildlife...especially yearlings...A mechanical feeder set up as Windwalker is describing it is not ..Many food plots are used for all types of wildlife not always specific for hunting on top of...while setting up a stand on top of a mechanical feeder to draw deer into them long after whatever crops are done...by acticvely baiting when that feed is no longer avalable or has ever been present at any time...well...WindWalker is correct..it is to me  very like shooting fish in a barrel..thus..to me.. not very sporting..regardless of your feelings on the matter Ken. Making clearings in woodlands allows undergrowth to occur..which does attract deer..but it also is benificial to all kinds of non huntable species as well..having a mechanical feeding spweing out corn doesn't do near as well for these other species.Growing clover or some of the other high neutriant cover is acceptable means of wildlife habitat improvement..a feeder used for baiting deer to a specific location is not.

Why is it..only you are allowed to have a valid opinion ? Why is it you have to start with the name calling games..?

Mac


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## JParanee (Oct 13, 2009)

I have no dog in ths fight, in my zone I can not hunt over a feeder but i'm curious is it sporting to hunt bear over bait or elk over a water hole. 

What if it's a man made water source ? 

I can see why it might not be someone's cup of tea but unsporting when done where its legal is a pretty strong sentiment. In a world of deer hunting where people are planting all kinds of food plots putting in bedding areas and water sources etc. 

just because a style of hunting is not your bag it does not make it wrong or unethical it just means it's not for you.


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## Long Rifle (Dec 8, 2011)

I keep feeders going pretty much 24/7/365 on my own land. I'm surrounded on three sides by commercially planted pine forests(Weyerhauser) where the browse is so scarce that rabbits carry a fanny-packed lunch with them. I have feeders within sight of my back porch and I use them primarily for entertainment for me and my family. Rarely, if ever, have I seen a buck sporting large enough headgear at any of mine to tempt me but I'd sure hunt the trails going to it if I did because generally you won't kill them during daylight hours standing over a cornpile. That being said, if I needed the meat or have a kid or novice hunter that I'm trying to introduce to the sport I'd take them to a feeder blind in a heartbeat and let them harvest a doe.


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## Chris Segina (May 2, 2012)

The only thing a hunter has to do to be "ethical" is do thier best to deliver an accurate killing shot to take the animal in the most humane way possible in my opinion. How you go about getting a shot is up to you. I dont hunt over food plots or feeders but i sure notice when acorn, beech nuts and pig nuts are dropping and I am sure looking at the thick edges above corn fields right after they are chopped, been known to hunt around old overgrown apple trees too. Knowing where deer are feeding doesn't guarantee success you still have to do a couple dozen other things right to get a crack at a mature buck so if your game laws allow baiting and you want to do it who am I to tell you different or say Im a better hunter because I dont bait. Every habitat is different and you have to adapt your methods to be successful. Have to agree with sharpbroadhead I dont see much difference between a 3 acre plot of white clover and 200lbs of cracked corn you are still creating a food source for lots of different animals I am sure the turkeys and squirrels hit those bait stations too. 

chris


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## MAC 11700 (Feb 22, 2011)

JParanee said:


> I have no dog in ths fight, in my zone I can not hunt over a feeder but i'm curious is it sporting to hunt bear over bait or elk over a water hole.
> 
> What if it's a man made water source ?
> 
> ...


Unsporting to me is how I said it... and how I feel.. You're entitled to feel as you wish.. strongly worded or not.... so...you consider a man made lake of 5000 acres the same as a water trough? 

Like I said.. if legal.. knock yourself out if that's how you do things... but don't ask for me to approve... 

Mac


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## WindWalker (Jan 23, 2005)

Just to make it clear for those that might be under the impression that I am condemning those that do hunt over feeders or bait and are on a personal defense trip; I am not. If it is legal and that is your way of hunting, so be it. 

Nevertheless, I too have a right to my opinion and it is my (strong) opinion that that sitting in a stand and waiting for the arrival of game and shoot them while they have lowered their defense and are grouping around feeders and bait piles is not “fair chase” hunting. It is, in my opinion, as M0ose said; target shooting.

As for baiting, there is a difference between laying down piles of bait, especially in a manner that, as Mac said, engrains in the game to habitually visit and throng around the bait pile, and that which I and others sometimes do. In areas where the deer do not normally forage and I know they will pass through without stopping, I will sometimes put black molasses on a nearby stump or log, or spray a spot on the trail with Vanilla/Anise spray just to get the deer to momentarily stop. 

As for declaring that hunting near large food plots, agriculture fields, acorn trees, persimmons on the ground, water ways and waterholes, etc., is the same as hunting over a feeder or bait pile; come on. That’s not a genuine comparison.

If you want to hunt over a feeder or bait pile, and it’s legal, have at it. For me I won’t. At one of the properties I hunt; the deer, which includes some big bucks (10-12 point and a 16 point), are constantly coming out of the woods and fields, up to the house to feed at the bird feeders and garden. There 2 very good locations near the house that I could sit and easily ambush them at 10-15 yards. Won’t even consider doing it.


Every person's Moped is their Harley Davidson.


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## Matt_Potter (Apr 13, 2010)

So is is ethical to prune and fertilize an abandoned apple tree so it bares fruit - it is legal and I do it - yet it would be illegal (here) and to some unethical for me to dump a bag of apples in the woods - I just don't see the difference.

Matt


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## WindWalker (Jan 23, 2005)

In my locale; any use of of salt and other minerals is totally illegal. If they (Conservation) suspect you have laid either, they will take a soil sample and have it analyzed at a lab. If the content is higher than what is naturally in the soil, your butt is in big trouble. If you have laid bait of any other type, you must cease before hunting season begins and remove all traces of the bait. You cannot hunt the previously baited spot until 10 days after you have removed the bait. If the bait is still present in any form, you cannot hunt over or near the baited spot. Feeders are illegal.



> _So is is ethical to prune and fertilize an abandoned apple tree so it bares fruit - it is legal and I do it - yet it would be illegal (here) and to some unethical for me to dump a bag of apples in the woods - I just don't see the difference._


Get real!


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## Mo0se (Sep 24, 2002)

Matt_Potter said:


> So is is ethical to prune and fertilize an abandoned apple tree so it bares fruit - it is legal and I do it - yet it would be illegal (here) and to some unethical for me to dump a bag of apples in the woods - I just don't see the difference.
> 
> Matt


Apples fall off trees..and a tree is not a commercial feeder


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

exactly Matt - My brother planted several apple and pear trees at my dad's cabin for the sole purpose of attracting deer - he carefully prunes them and cares for them - there is no more risk of spreading disease, changing deer patterns, effecting other hunters, etc.... by my brother doing this than by another guy taking out two gallons of apples every other day or so and hunting over them. In fact - the trees drop more apples and pears than one could legally bait with.


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## Matt_Potter (Apr 13, 2010)

WindWalker said:


> Get real!


So you see a difference between planting or pruning a tree for no other reason than baiting deer and actually dumping apples??

For me it is just timing and semantics.

Matt


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## MAC 11700 (Feb 22, 2011)

sharpbroadhead said:


> exactly Matt - My brother planted several apple and pear trees at my dad's cabin for the sole purpose of attracting deer - he carefully prunes them and cares for them - there is no more risk of spreading disease, changing deer patterns, effecting other hunters, etc.... by my brother doing this than by another guy taking out two gallons of apples every other day or so and hunting over them. In fact - the trees drop more apples and pears than one could legally bait with.


Basically... either a hunter abides by rules of fair chase... or he doesn't... 

It's that simple really... there are lots of tactics that's legal... but the people who don't hunt are the ones who see what and how we do things that can vote away our rights... and are the ones who we have tobe mindful of these days...


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

The ethics and trad police always like to evoke the dreaded "anti-hunters", me personally - I could care less about what the anti-hunters think - no matter what we do or do not do they will find fault with it and twist it into something it is not (odd - I just had deja vu). 

I have my personal views on how I want to hunt and that is how I hunt. I am not going to impose my personal views on others or call others unethical or claim their methods are not "fair chase", etc... I don't care what other hunters do or do not do - so long as it is not effecting the hunting of others in any significant way, it is not damaging the herd, and it is not damaging the habitat - have at it.

There is no true "fair chase" - the only way for it to be "fair chase" is if we were hunting bare arse naked and killing the animals with our barehands - and even then the anti-hunters would find fault in some manner.

Like I said before what is "fair chase" to one hunter is not to another - there are trad and ethic police who think that treestands, camo, deer cams, lighted arrow nocks, scents, decoys, ground blinds, etc... are not "fair chase" - it is ridiculous.

Just hunt the way you want to hunt and don't pass judgements on other hunters and certainly don't try to ban the way they choose to hunt.


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## centershot (Sep 13, 2002)

It depends a lot on the situation. A deer feeder out here is the west is useless. The country is open and the animals are scattered. They do like hay fields - Is it bad to hunt the edge of a field? In Texas where the brush is so thick you cant get through it, a feeder is about the only way to get a deer into shooting range. I have no problem baiting bears, or deer - as long as it is legal, go for it. I do however have issues with hunting leases, high fence hunts, tresspass fees and the like - but that's another rant.


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

oh and whenever these debates come up - I always like to remind people that there are ethics police in the compound world who would love to see a proficiency test before anyone is allowed in the woods with a bow. Most suggest that it be six out of six arrows in a target the size of a whitetails vitals. Good ole Chuck Adams a few years ago in the North American Hunting Club magazine called traditional bows "deer wounding machines". If the anti-hunters ever decided to jump on this bandwagon - all they would have to do is attend a few 3D shoots with a camera and film the "accuracy" of most traditional hunters and make a commercial with that footage and then find some footage of wounded deer with arrows sticking out of their butts!

The calls to ban traditional bows for hunting would be HUGE!

Ethics have a way of coming back and biting you!


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## fotoguy (Jul 30, 2007)

here in PA, you cannot bait or hunt over bait...but....you CAN put out mineral/salt licks, and other such items all year, except they must be removed a certain time before hunting season, and cannot be out during hunting season.....soo, even though during hunting season the mineral licks are not there, for 9 months out of the year the deer have been programmed to visit that spot....and even though the minerail licks are not there physically, through being there for that length of time, in the elements, and with deer visiting them, the nutrients and such seep into the ground, and the scent is still there, causing deer to continue to visit that area.....I have seen where such items have been placed, and even after removing them, seen deer paw and dig at the ground where they were located.....

If it is legal in the state you hunt...I have no problem with it.....if a person does not agree with it, they have the free choice not to use such tactics....can't do it here, so it is a non factor for me....


Lee


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## trapperDave (Mar 12, 2005)

in indiana its about the same except ALL effected soil must be removed as well to be legal


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## Matt_Potter (Apr 13, 2010)

So who EXACTLY defines the rules of fair chase????

You can't use apples but you can use estrus scent?

You won't hunt suburban deer that are going to feed on a garden but, you will shoot a deer going to a bean field.

Got off your high horse the idea is to kill them cut them up and EAT them.

A deer is no different than one of my old man's cows - they are a source of protein - we owe them, like any animal we kill and eat, the cleanest death possible - but that is all we owe them.

My family has a deep hunting heritage we have been hunters and hunting guides since the first Potter climbed off the boat and realized "hey those ain't the kings deer any more" - but, we don't look at hunting through rose tinted glasses.

Matt


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## bsites9 (Mar 22, 2008)

If it were legal here, I would PROBABLY do it. Not 100% sure though. I don't have anything against it, that's why I say I'd probably do it. Like someone else said, I'm a live and let live kinda guy. As long as you're ruining my hunt directly, I don't care really.


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## Eldermike (Mar 24, 2009)

Hunting is managed and rules change from state to state and even county to county. If you hunt within the rules then you are hunting, if not within the rules you are a criminal. Hunters need to be careful with the ethics stuff, we don't have a lot of friends outside of the hunting community. You will not make more friends by calling any legal hunting method unethical.
Get involved with your local wildlife clubs and you will discover the basic differences in hunting methods and rules within your state. you might find out that promoting methods that increase success are targeted at reducing populations in areas that get 1,000 of nuisance calls to law enforcement for deer eating the flowers someone just put out their 1/2 acre kingdom, or more serious stuff like people being killed in deer car accidents.

There is most likely a good foundation for what's allowed and what's not allowed in any given area.

Ethics = following the rules


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## Wayko (Dec 22, 2011)

Over the years I've seen many changes in deer hunting around here, right, wrong, good or bad, is for each to fugure out on there own.
The biggest change to deer hunting around these parts, has been baiting.
In the 70's early 80's there were very, very little baiting if any at all & if you saw 10 cars along a section of a 2 track, 9 of them were small game hunting & 1 was a bowhunting. Today that same section of 2 track, 9 of them are bowhunting & 1 is small game hunting.
In the late 80's & all of the 90's baiting seem mostly unlimited, truck loads brought in every weekend, & if you did not change how/were you hunted you most likely went deerless.
Afew years ago our area went to "No baiting" But that did not stop bowhunters from baiting, it was only enforced if someone complained & if there was a DNR officer to go out & try to catch who the complain was about, the whole thing was a big joke, I know people who sell bait & there sales only dropped about 90% from the unlimited days, so had there sales go up. Now we have a 2 gallon limit that very few follow.
In the pre-baiting days, when the wind was blowing & acorns were falling, you called in sick at work to get out to the woods, odds were very good if you did your homework, you would get a good chance at a standing buck in bow range, during mid-day. Once baiting became the normal way to hunt, that changed & you had to change, you had to figure out if you wanted to join them or look for areas where no one was baiting or instead of patterning deer, you pattern hunters, if you wanted to fill your tag.
I hunt & have hunted both with & without bait/food plots, and: IMO
The biggest pro's are: Less unrecovered deer,(It's not hard to make a good shot on a deer on a bait/food plots). More bow tags sold (gives bowhunters a bigger voice). Helping out people who sell bowhunting idems & who grow/sell bait/seeds, etc.
The biggest con's are: There seems to be a loss of woodsmanship (there's a large group of people hunting to today that lack the skills needed to hunt without bait/foodplots & afew other hunting related skills). In areas where bait/food plots are all over the place the mature bucks go nocturnal very fast.
There are other pro's & con's but these are the biggest for me.
Don't know if it's the baiting/food plots, or more people bowhunting, or maybe I'am just older & grumpier now, but it seems hunters tend to be more rude now then before.
Like I said, I hunt & have hunted with & without, and it is different now around here, but I don't feel it's for me to judge the right or wrong of it.


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## Wayko (Dec 22, 2011)

Matt_Potter said:


> So who EXACTLY defines the rules of fair chase????
> 
> 
> 
> What ever you figure it is for you, no one has the right to figure it out for you, would be my short answer.


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

I have to say that it is nice to see the trend changing in these trad forums - when I first started visiting them - most everyone was a fanatic member of the ethics and trad police - and had an attitiude of "I am a better hunter than other guys because I am traditional) seems to be going away. The judgemental crap about everything from baiting to treestands, from deer cams to lighted arrow nocks, from camo to groundblinds, is now being relegated to the irrelevant minority - where it should be.

I am very glad to see that most of us are taking a hunt and let hunt mentality and the extremists are either changing their mind or such a small minority that they are irrelevant.


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## Easykeeper (Jan 2, 2003)

Baiting is not legal here so it isn't an option for me. Doesn't stop a large percentage of my fellow hunters from doing it though. It's a minor problem during archery season, major problem for those out during rifle season. Now that chaps my hide...:set1_punch:


As far as how I feel about baiting? Complex subject and one impossible to answer with a yes or no. I will say this, anyone that thinks that hunting over a bait pile of the several square feet size is the same as hunting over several acres of food plots or forty acres of corn is using flawed logic. I have three acres of alfalfa and two acres of clover planted on my land, along with many mature producing oaks spread over another forty acres, a two acre pond and a fifteen acre hayfield. Any and all of these act as deer attractants. The deer action is mostly in the clover and alfalfa and even then I'm lucky if I get a small percentage of those deer in bow range. At least ninety percent of the deer I see in an evening never get within range. Even though there are several spots they most frequently use to enter and leave, you still need to make the right guess. Any deer coming to a corn pile the size of my kitchen will be in range, doesn't matter what direction they come from. The bait pile is the destination. And the food plots provide food year round, most hunters only bait for short periods of time to concentrate deer movement. 

That said, I obviously planted the food plots to attract deer. They also provide forage year round and are hit especially hard in the early spring. I live in a rural area that is a patchwork of agricultural fields, hay fields, and small blocks of woods. It took a lot of time, money, and upkeep. I mowed for six hours the other day bouncing around in the sun and heat on a hot tractor pulling a mower. All for the intention of improving my chances of hunting this fall. Are these food plots bait? Absolutely. Are they the same as a temporary pile of corn? Good luck convincing me of that. The key variable is how concentrated the attractant is.

The apple trees mentioned? Definitely bait, definitely year round, definitely act as a point source destination if there is only one or a few, not an orchard. Gets back to the hard to have a black or white answer on baiting. Planting a few trees is on the agenda for next year or this fall if I can find some on sale...and there will be an apple tree or two in the mix.

As for hunting big woods areas. This is the one spot I will step on some toes. If it's legal where you hunt, go for it if you want. I love hunting big woods deer one on one, even though it is as tough as it gets. I live near a huge public area that is mostly big woods, no crop or hayfields for miles. I really like hunting the natural movement patterns, and yes there is a low probability of success on any given day. Most hunts I don't even see a deer. The bucks I have taken in those circumstances mean more to me than the ones at home since I worked my butt off and beat them on their own turf. No bait, no food plot. A good hunter doesn't need bait in big woods areas unless everybody else has bait out. Fortunately that isn't usually a problem during archery season here.

It's up to the individual, but comparing a bait pile to a clover field is silly, it's only the same on the most simplistic level. I've never personally had to decide if I'd go the corn pile route or not since it's not legal here. I think I'm glad it's not, although I wish everyone would comply. If if was legal and everyone around me was doing it...I don't know. It definitely would make it easier to concentrate deer if done right. I kind of like my hunting to be a game of chance and skill but each to their own within the law.


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## martha j (May 11, 2009)

if it's legal by my states laws i'll do it, don't care what anybody says or thinks.


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## airwolf (Jul 28, 2005)

sharpbroadhead said:


> Who cares - If you don't like feeders and hunting over feeders - then don't do it. I don't care how anyone else hunts, what they hunt with, where they hunt, whatever - as long as I can hunt the way I want - I could care less how anyone else hunts. P&Y will likely never disqualify hunting over bait - if they did - then do we disqualify hunting on or over an apple tree, a food crop, scents, decoys, etc... Anyone who has ever hunted over bait in the wild knows it is not some easy piece of cake to kill a mature whitetail - especially a mature buck - spikes and basket rack juvenile animals - sure - they are easy to kill over bait or not - but mature animals in the wild are had to kill - period.


^ what he said


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## trapperDave (Mar 12, 2005)

sharpbroadhead said:


> I have to say that it is nice to see the trend changing in these trad forums - when I first started visiting them - most everyone was a fanatic member of the ethics and trad police - and had an attitiude of "I am a better hunter than other guys because I am traditional) seems to be going away. The judgemental crap about everything from baiting to treestands, from deer cams to lighted arrow nocks, from camo to groundblinds, is now being relegated to the irrelevant minority - where it should be.
> 
> I am very glad to see that most of us are taking a hunt and let hunt mentality and the extremists are either changing their mind or such a small minority that they are irrelevant.


x2.


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## turkethinter84 (Jul 1, 2010)

pinshooter said:


> I would have to disagree with your thoughts on that.


X2! Another note is that deer don't flock to the feeder in most cases. It just keeps them in the area. The deer it does keep I. The area are typically does. Unless its late season you hardly ever see mature bucks at the feeder during hunting hours. Corn fields are created by man. Estrouse is placed in the wild by man. This is all done to increase your odds of success. No different than fishing a brush pile.


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

Easykeeper said: "but comparing a bait pile to a clover field is silly, it's only the same on the most simplistic level"

I disagree totally - every argument against baiting can be used x2 against food plots. Some of those arguments have apeared in this thread.

Here are the ones that come to mind.

1. Baiting is not natural - well neither is planting a food plot with plants that specifically attract deer and are sometimes even genetically modified to grow at diffent times of the year or to grow big antlers.

2. Baiting effects hunters who don't want to bait - well so do food plots - but in a much more significant manner - what do you think will effect deer movement more, a couple gallons of corn - or a 5 acre food plot of their favorite food?

3. Baiting makes for hunters who do not understand woodsmanship - the same can be true of food plots

4. Baiting can spread disease - well if baiting can so can a food plot

5. Baiting is too easy - no easier than shooting them on a food plot

etc...

Don't get me wrong - I am not against food plots and don't care if anyone wants one - BUT if find it the height of hypocrisy if somoene supports food plots but opposes baiting.


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## DDS (Dec 10, 2009)

Happiness is a full tailgate, how you fill that tailgate (as long as it is legal) is not to be judged by any man. As for the guy with the 10, 12, and 16 point coming to the bird feeders, well I guess he has more restraint than I. That just don't happen at my place, and if it did.... during bow season under legal shooting hours.... a dirt nap would have to be arranged.


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

LOL DDS i agree - I know of a couple of guys who have pics of MONSTER bucks that come into their yard and they have large pieces of property - but they won't shoot them because they view them as pets. Heck, any HUGE buck that I can legally shoot is going down!


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## JParanee (Oct 13, 2009)

You know when the best time to kill a big buck is ? ...............when ya see it


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

LOL - JParanee - AMEN to that!


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## Wayko (Dec 22, 2011)

For the most part, I'am going to have to agree with sharpbroadhead as for bait pile being about the same as a food plot, unless your making your food plot something like 5 or more acres, then I would call that cropland hunting, & for me, I hunt them the same way I hunt cropland, when I get the chance to hunt them.
I share a small parcel of land with a few others, in a area that is made up of 40 to 120 acres of private land with state land all around, there is no crops for many miles. I set up my wife on the private land I share, my son & I hunt on state land more the 90% of the time, do to all the food plots & bait piles and hunting pressure in the area, I started with the bait pile thing for her to help her to get deer into her range, the problem that I run into is that I usually hunt over a mile out of camp on state land, as I have got older it's a pain to carry bait all the time to her blind for her during season, so I started with the food plot thing, on the trail behind her blind & a small area in front of it, & what I learned is basicly the food plot works better then the bait pile for her to get a shot at a buck, & alot less work during season for me, (my work is in the spring & late summer in her area). Also I'am one of those people who loves hunting/being in the woods, more then I should, even when my tag is full I'll set in her blind with no weapon just to watch & learn, & what I have found out is that after the snow falls, most deer will walk right though a bait pile to go to the food plot. So I guess from what I've seen, IMO the main differents between small food plots & bait piles, is what time of the year ya do the work. they both allow in range shooting chances, easy'er to hunt, with the edge going to small well placed food plots.


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## 2413gary (Apr 10, 2008)

Love it matt !!!!!!!!!!!


matt_potter said:


> so who exactly defines the rules of fair chase????
> 
> You can't use apples but you can use estrus scent?
> 
> ...


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## Boberau (Dec 15, 2009)

There are lots of different concepts of hunting ethics. Mostly I'm not interested. But, there is one extremely important issue of hunting ethics to me. That is, a species should only be hunted in a fashion where the population is sustainable, or made more healthy by the endeavor. 

Now, I'm not able to judge this. This is an area that we must depend upon the good work of the applicable game departments. So, I expect the game departments to apply hunting limits/methods/etc. in a fashion which leads to healthy game populations. 

After that, I'm not too interested in making one person's personal preferences into supposed "ethics."


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## Wayko (Dec 22, 2011)

Easykeeper, I feel for ya, on the baiting going on when it's not allowed, but how is it going to be stoped, around here when baiting was not allowed, it was still for sale & sold all over the place, kind'a like making all drugs for sale everywhere, but saying it's now not allowed to use them.


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## Mo0se (Sep 24, 2002)

Matt_Potter said:


> So who EXACTLY defines the rules of fair chase????
> 
> You can't use apples but you can use estrus scent?
> 
> ...


The definition of fair chase to me is going in the woods with my bow, my arrows, and my homework, nothing more. Comparing a farmers field in agriculture which has probably been there before any of us were born, to strategically placing a feeding machine with the intent of hunting on top it by some here is ridiculous. The deer have survived foraging in the wild before we were born. This next comment is sure to offend some people, and that's not my intent. The path of least resistance has found its way into hunting...i.e. convenience vs work or woodsmanship. The OP asked our feelings on feeding machines..not agriculture.

What's next..the stream where the deer drink should be lumped in with baiting? Really? There is no comparison in my opinion. They bed down, they eat, and they drink. Pick any two and that's all you need. I lived in Livingston, I hunted the Yellowstone River bottoms...I also hunted in the Absaroka Beartooth Wilderness just south of town. The deer were/are more concentrated on the along the Yellowstone..why? Natural food sources and water. There is a huge difference in naturally occurring habitat than manipulated ones. I'm not throwing rocks at anyone..simply sharing my thoughts. I only quoted you because you asked for a definition of fair chase. Well in my simple mind, taking a deer on their terms is what I'd add to that.


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## bigtone1411 (Nov 3, 2011)

Matt_Potter said:


> So who EXACTLY defines the rules of fair chase????
> 
> You can't use apples but you can use estrus scent?
> 
> ...


:thumbs_up


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## fotoguy (Jul 30, 2007)

We have areas here in PA which they label as "Special Regs", mostly in suburban areas, where deer populations are high...One year they voted to allow baiting in these areas....I had been putting out some kind of whitetail pellets with extra protein, etc,,I started before the season, and usually carried a ziplock bag in my backpack with some....before the season, I checked my area and the pellets were being eaten! I was stoked! Once hunting season started, I played the wind right...kept scent to minimum....came in quiet..etc....pellets were gone but spent all day...no deer.....on and on.....

Decided one day to go in way early, around 3am and sit and wait......got in my stand....and about 3:30 had several deer feeding on the pellets....!!! About an hour or so before legal shooting hours....they meandered off to bed down.....

My conclusion....deer ain't stupid! They mostly feed at night...and while they appreciated the meal, they weren't going to change their clock and feed during daylight......so i just decided to forget spending the money.....the only animals that came in during daylight hours were squirrels....and thanks to my efforts, very fat and well fed squirrels!

Alot of trail camera pics I see of deer at feeders and mineral licks are at night....while they may take advantage of the food...they tend to stick to their routines of nighttime feedings....now I must admit I hunt only public land so pressure and such plays a part as well.....but it ain't just a shooting gallery like some people claim......does it help? probably keeps them in the area....but to me it was an effort in futility and a waste of my money......

Each to their own.......as long as it is legal......go for it!


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

Moose - nobody was comparing farmers fields to baiting - we were comparing planting food crops specifically for the purpose of attracting and keeping deer in a specific area to baiting! Strawman tore down - next?

Oh - yea the stream - well an accurate analogy would be a stream verses a man-made water hole specifically used for hunting and only for hunting - watch the Black Widow African Dreams video where they are sitting in a ground blind over a man made water hole and dozens and dozens of different animals come to this water hole to drink - no different than baiting - not even a little - the exact same thing - in fact - the water hole in Africa attracts far more animals than any bait does here in the USA!

A farmers crop is what it is and does make it much easier to pattern deer and hunt in a given area - but there is a difference between a farmers field and a food plot - just as there is a vast difference between a stream and a man made water hole specifically set for hunting in a desert!


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## rebelcujo (Jul 10, 2012)

Hunting over feeders is legal here but i dont do it. Dont get me wrong i have 2 feeders set up but they are homemade pipe feeders that hold 200+lbs of feed. I keep feed in em year round. I hunt 245 acres that my grandparents own. Ive seen pretty much any kind of animal eat out of those feeders including coyotes. Its fun to sit an watch tha animals come up an eat while me an my son sit by and watch but i can garantee you that jus because tha animals frequent tha feeders doesnt mean they let their guard down at all. And honestly i have never had any luck shooting a deer over a feeder thats why i hunt tha trails going an coming from tha feeders to neighboring corn an rye grass fields


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## centershot (Sep 13, 2002)

I bet that is why some guy put a feeder on a timer.


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## Easykeeper (Jan 2, 2003)

sharpbroadhead said:


> Easykeeper said: "but comparing a bait pile to a clover field is silly, it's only the same on the most simplistic level"
> 
> I disagree totally - every argument against baiting can be used x2 against food plots. Some of those arguments have apeared in this thread.
> 
> ...



You need to be clear sharp. Are you calling me a hypocrite?


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## Chris Segina (May 2, 2012)

if you put something out specifically to attract game animals to an area so you can shoot them it is bait in my opinion the rest is semantics. whether its a pile of corn or a 1/2 acre food plot it was put there so you could shoot a deer coming to it, nothing wrong with it but I just don't see the difference.

chris


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## JParanee (Oct 13, 2009)

I have never shot a deer off a feeder. 

My point is I don't care what people use and that goes for guys that hunt deer over feeders with a crossbow

What ever legal way you hunt more power to ya.

It's all personal choices 

My two best bucks where shot from tree stands. I knew they where in the area, and this was before trail cameras where popular whichby the way I use and love them now . But at the time I knew they where in the area from scouting and glassing 

I played the chess game , I watched the wind....waited for that perfect day slipped in climbed a tree with my old baker stand and the scene unfolded and I shot both those bucks with there nose is a film can with cotton balls and some James River Estrus doe scent. What is the difference between the scent I put out and an apple I placed there ?  

I for one know that in the wild not a high fence operation that mature bucks do not frequent feeders in day light as commenly as people would think.

Sure there are varying degrees of difficulty and challenge in all types of hunting but that should be left up to the individual that is doing the hunting to decide and I don't ever think dividing the hunting ranks is a sound idea


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## WindWalker (Jan 23, 2005)

As long as it is legal, harvest the game the way you desire. It's the actual "hunt" that appeals to me. For me the kill is the culmination of having put a lot of mental and physical effort…and foot mileage… in to bringing about the kill. For years now, my kills have had a “downer” aspect; not because I killed, but that the kill is an indicator that the end of the hunt for the year is nearing, or if I have filled my quota the hunting season is over for me. I relish the hunting aspect as much or more than just a kill.

As for visual comparison:
*
Feeder*

















*Bait pile:*










*Food plot:*


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

nice - find a pic filled with deer at a feeder and show an empty food plot - yea that is real unbiased - LOL here are some realistic pics of food plots:


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

Easykeeper I don't know how much clearer I can make it - I find it to be extremely hypocritical for someone to be against a guy putting out a couple of gallons of corn or apples in the middle of a national forest - but have no problem with someone planting a food crop for the sole purpose of attacting and keeping as many deer as possible on his property for the purpose of hunting them. I find that hypocritical - it is my opinion that holding such a view is extremely hypocritical - am I not allowed to hold that view? Funny the guys against baiting can hold the view that guys who hunt over bait are unethical - but somehow I am out of line for thinking a particular view is hypocritical.

Clear enough?


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## 5263LL (May 18, 2012)

If ya need it use it.. its like the EZ buttom... WHO CARES


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## Wayko (Dec 22, 2011)

Sharp, if you were not an eagle scout, you should have been, "you always seem prepared" LOL ....... nice pictures


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

Like I said before I am soooooo glad these views of the ethics and trad police are fast vanishing and now in the minority.


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

LOL Wayko


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## WindWalker (Jan 23, 2005)

The difference between food plots, and feeders and bait piles; is food stands at the state fairs vs. a vending machine.


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## Bushwacked (Apr 6, 2012)

I have never been able to figure out why guys get so upset over how someone else hunts. Just hunt the way you want to and forget the crap others say. I will hunt the way I want to with no concern what anyone else does. Good luck to ya is all I will say.


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## Mo0se (Sep 24, 2002)

sharpbroadhead said:


> Moose - nobody was comparing farmers fields to baiting - we were comparing planting food crops specifically for the purpose of attracting and keeping deer in a specific area to baiting! Strawman tore down - next?


Keep telling yourself that and it still won't be true.


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## Mo0se (Sep 24, 2002)

sharpbroadhead said:


> Easykeeper I don't know how much clearer I can make it - I find it to be extremely hypocritical for someone to be against a guy putting out a couple of gallons of corn or apples in the middle of a national forest - but have no problem with someone planting a food crop for the sole purpose of attacting and keeping as many deer as possible on his property for the purpose of hunting them. I find that hypocritical - it is my opinion that holding such a view is extremely hypocritical - am I not allowed to hold that view? Funny the guys against baiting can hold the view that guys who hunt over bait are unethical - but somehow I am out of line for thinking a particular view is hypocritical.
> 
> Clear enough?


The topic is feeders..remember?


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## WindWalker (Jan 23, 2005)

> I have never been able to figure out why guys get so upset over how someone else hunts.


I believe the original question is based on what is a person's personal opinion regarding hunting at feeders and bait piles; not a forum campaign to solicit petition signatures to outlaw feeders and bait piles. If it's legal and you want to hunt over either and call it "hunting," so be it. I don't and do not consider the method to be "hunting"......more like "watching."


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## Easykeeper (Jan 2, 2003)

sharpbroadhead said:


> Easykeeper I don't know how much clearer I can make it - I find it to be extremely hypocritical for someone to be against a guy putting out a couple of gallons of corn or apples in the middle of a national forest - but have no problem with someone planting a food crop for the sole purpose of attacting and keeping as many deer as possible on his property for the purpose of hunting them. I find that hypocritical - it is my opinion that holding such a view is extremely hypocritical - am I not allowed to hold that view? Funny the guys against baiting can hold the view that guys who hunt over bait are unethical - but somehow I am out of line for thinking a particular view is hypocritical.
> 
> Clear enough?




Seems clear you didn't read my post. Or if you did, you misunderstood. Here's a copy, if you can find in there where I say you or anybody else shouldn't be baiting if legal point it out. The whole gist of what I wrote is that it is a matter of scale between a pile of corn, a small food plot, a multi-acre food plot, and and agricultural field. The general comparison between a discrete bait pile and a large area is vast over simplification. 

Clear enough?

_*Quote:*_ Baiting is not legal here so it isn't an option for me. Doesn't stop a large percentage of my fellow hunters from doing it though. It's a minor problem during archery season, major problem for those out during rifle season. Now that chaps my hide...


As far as how I feel about baiting? Complex subject and one impossible to answer with a yes or no. I will say this, anyone that thinks that hunting over a bait pile of the several square feet size is the same as hunting over several acres of food plots or forty acres of corn is using flawed logic. I have three acres of alfalfa and two acres of clover planted on my land, along with many mature producing oaks spread over another forty acres, a two acre pond and a fifteen acre hayfield. Any and all of these act as deer attractants. The deer action is mostly in the clover and alfalfa and even then I'm lucky if I get a small percentage of those deer in bow range. At least ninety percent of the deer I see in an evening never get within range. Even though there are several spots they most frequently use to enter and leave, you still need to make the right guess. Any deer coming to a corn pile the size of my kitchen will be in range, doesn't matter what direction they come from. The bait pile is the destination. And the food plots provide food year round, most hunters only bait for short periods of time to concentrate deer movement. 

That said, I obviously planted the food plots to attract deer. They also provide forage year round and are hit especially hard in the early spring. I live in a rural area that is a patchwork of agricultural fields, hay fields, and small blocks of woods. It took a lot of time, money, and upkeep. I mowed for six hours the other day bouncing around in the sun and heat on a hot tractor pulling a mower. All for the intention of improving my chances of hunting this fall. Are these food plots bait? Absolutely. Are they the same as a temporary pile of corn? Good luck convincing me of that. The key variable is how concentrated the attractant is.

The apple trees mentioned? Definitely bait, definitely year round, definitely act as a point source destination if there is only one or a few, not an orchard. Gets back to the hard to have a black or white answer on baiting. Planting a few trees is on the agenda for next year or this fall if I can find some on sale...and there will be an apple tree or two in the mix.

As for hunting big woods areas. This is the one spot I will step on some toes. If it's legal where you hunt, go for it if you want. I love hunting big woods deer one on one, even though it is as tough as it gets. I live near a huge public area that is mostly big woods, no crop or hayfields for miles. I really like hunting the natural movement patterns, and yes there is a low probability of success on any given day. Most hunts I don't even see a deer. The bucks I have taken in those circumstances mean more to me than the ones at home since I worked my butt off and beat them on their own turf. No bait, no food plot. A good hunter doesn't need bait in big woods areas unless everybody else has bait out. Fortunately that isn't usually a problem during archery season here.

It's up to the individual, but comparing a bait pile to a clover field is silly, it's only the same on the most simplistic level. I've never personally had to decide if I'd go the corn pile route or not since it's not legal here. I think I'm glad it's not, although I wish everyone would comply. If if was legal and everyone around me was doing it...I don't know. It definitely would make it easier to concentrate deer if done right. I kind of like my hunting to be a game of chance and skill but each to their own within the law.


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## bldtrailer (Feb 2, 2010)

NOT FAIR CHASE might as well shoot them in a pen(FISH IN A BARREL)


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

Mo0se said:


> Keep telling yourself that and it still won't be true.


LOL - ok then


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## Long Rifle (Dec 8, 2011)

bldtrailer said:


> NOT FAIR CHASE might as well shoot them in a pen(FISH IN A BARREL)


Finally, an educated opinion...ukey:


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## MAC 11700 (Feb 22, 2011)

sharpbroadhead said:


> Moose - nobody was comparing farmers fields to baiting - we were comparing planting food crops specifically for the purpose of attracting and keeping deer in a specific area to baiting! Strawman tore down - next?
> 
> Oh - yea the stream - well an accurate analogy would be a stream verses a man-made water hole specifically used for hunting and only for hunting - watch the Black Widow African Dreams video where they are sitting in a ground blind over a man made water hole and dozens and dozens of different animals come to this water hole to drink - no different than baiting - not even a little - the exact same thing - in fact - the water hole in Africa attracts far more animals than any bait does here in the USA!
> 
> A farmers crop is what it is and does make it much easier to pattern deer and hunt in a given area - but there is a difference between a farmers field and a food plot - just as there is a vast difference between a stream and a man made water hole specifically set for hunting in a desert!


I agree with you as far as the water hole comparison...but..the problem you have Sharp is in understanding 1 thing...not all who plant food plots set up over directly over them to hunt. Do they bring in deer to them..yes..but..by also supplying extra mineral rich browse can and does benefit the entire herd that utilizes it and many other species of wildlife..just as doing some limited clear cutting..and allowing the undergrowth to come up..Some folks..believe it or not want the deer in their area to actually grow and prosper..so that there are more deer in the area..more opportunities for the kids to be able to actually hunt..Some folks even feed them in the winter months as well..to keep them alive..instead of starving..

Personally...I don't hunt over food plots..or a mechanical feeder and I certainly would never hunt in Africa over the only water hole for miles around...nor would I ever bear hunt where the bear is coming into a bait pile or feeding out of a 55 gallon drum...to me...*and that is to me*...I find it totally unsporting....and refuse to participate teach or even condone these type of tactics..when discussing it with other sportsman.I won't actively try to stop others from doing what is legal..but..will remind them that others who don't hunt can be swayed to vote against hunting in general if they see something that isn't right to them...I am entitled to my own opinions just as much as any one else is..I am long over my blood lust days..where the only way I considered a hunt successful was if my tags were filled or my game bag filled..I would never take or teach someone who has never hunted to a place that did this type of hunting neither...I hold myself to a higher set of standards than most people..and do my best to help promote safe ethical hunting...I am a firm believer in the rules of fair chase...I don't shoot game from a 1000 yards and try to convince others that I am a hunter by doing so...just as I wouldn't set up on a food plot or mechanical feeder and call that hunting as well...I don't strap my deer on the hood or trunk of my car and drive home with it where non hunters can see this and take offense to it..I actually worry at times when going into a strange town what type of image I am portraying to those that don't know me..and do my best to show myself and "hunters" in a good light ..Does that make me the Ethics Police...to you..I am quite sure it does...and you know what..that makes me real happy knowing it. Knowing that perhaps I am bugging yours or others conscious a little...You say you don't worry about what the non hunters or anti hunters think...this type of thinking has led to all kinds of BS laws being enacted...hard feelings and distrust from those who don't hunt...and continuing to bury your head in the sand is a sure fire recipe for them to continue to gain strength and get legislation passed against us..and convince those who did not care that we hunt to be turned against us..by how we act and how we hunt..or by those who are hell bent to stop all hunting..

What also amazes me is someone on this thread asking what the rules of fair chase is..and then others actually condemning those who try live and hunt by them..What a sad state of affairs this place has become..

Mac


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

Everyone that baits or uses feeders does not set up directly over them either - in fact - most who are trophy buck hunters who bait by me - do not hunt over the bait at all - they set up and then hunt the rub and scrape lines near the bait - big bucks rarely come into bait during daylight hours. I don't care what anyone does - as long as it is not effecting the hunting of others in a signficant way - and ya know what - I can see where food plots can effect and has effected other hunters in a significant way - if a guy plants a large food plot - he will attract and keep the deer on his land until that food source is dried up - and that can effect all of the public land hunters hear him and other landowners - I know that my brother felt the need to plant a food plot because everyone else around him planted them too and he was not seeing any deer - when baiting was legal in his part of the state - he never baited - but he saw deer all the time.


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

well guys I am off to go camping with the kids - have fun solving all these ethical questions - I will be eating venison stew cooked in a dutch oven tomorrow night


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## OregonBlacktail (Nov 1, 2011)

sharpbroadhead said:


> exactly JParanee - these guys that act all holier than thou about their hunting usually hunt in areas with a lot of agriculture or concentrated natural food sources - take them and put them in the middle of the Chequamegon National Forest which is thousands of acres of carniforous forest with few or no oaks - no agriculture, and no concentrated natural food sources, and small deer populations per square mile - where the deer eat by browsing - let them try and predict where a deer is going to show up in bow range - it can be done - but it is nothing like hunting in areas with agriculture, concentrated natural feed sources, and larger concentrations of animals in smaller tracts of land.


Welcome to hunting Oregon. I would love the opportunity to hunt over a feeder. I just don't own enough land.


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## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

I feel this way about plots, feeders and mineral blocks or watering holes i.e. "baiting of any sort"...

Could i be a more successful hunter utilizing such?...absolutely...but would i have the same level of pride in such a harvesting?..

Absolutely Not!

For an analogy?...If we were cops?..it would be called "entrapment".

Is it "Fair Chase"?...what chase?...what hunt?..what sign?..any rubs or scrapes?...did you look for them?...or didja just have'em come to you out of hunger or thirst?.

Whats missing?..woodsmenship and hunting skills...for instance...would the young guy who helped the old guy toss sacks of corn in a timed out moultry feeder ever know how to truely "Hunt"?...would he ever learn how to spot a rub or scrape let alone tell if it's fresh or not?..would he ever discover the rut?..(okay..maybe the rut)...but would he ever realize that the white oaks of the forest are natural feeders as they drop their acorns?..would he ever discover "natural feed times" or just the ones programed in on the feeder/timer?...would he ever bother to discover what natural funnels and bedding areas are?..or which moon phases offer up the best opportunity?...or?...would he just know which feed store has the cheapest corn? LOL!

But most importantly?...a very wise and well informed hunting bud of mine once told me...

"If ya got one every time they'd call it "Killing" NOT "Hunting".

which begs one last analogy..a Jinksterism (if you will)...as follows..

"If everybody bowled a 300 everytime they went to the lanes?..how long would you enjoy going bowling?"

all i got..and moultry will NEVER sell this hunter a feeder..might not harvest near as many deer but..that'll make it just that much sweeter when i do...and when other fellow hunters ask me how i got it?...i'll have a real cool story to tell'em..with pride...and?..

not just a huge reciept from the feed store. :laugh:

To each their own but..all i got on the topic and L8R, Bill. :cool2:


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## WindWalker (Jan 23, 2005)

> he will attract and keep the deer on his land until that food source is dried up - and that can effect all of the public land hunters hear him and other landowners - I know that my brother felt the need to plant a food plot because everyone else around him planted them too and he was not seeing any deer -


Bull! Unless the habitat and food sources in the area is scarce/bad, a food plot won't pull populations to just the food plot and keep them in the area. A food plot is just another fare on the deer's buffet table. Deer need various types of nutrients to maintain health and to survive and a person could not possibly supply all the needed foods in a food plot. Please! Give me a break.


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## Wayko (Dec 22, 2011)

I have posted on this thread way more then any other thread, mainly because I think about this all the time, & I know no one will change anyones mind on this subject, I guess I'am posting so much on this to get things off my chest, LOL.
I grew up & learned hunting deer when very few baited & planted food plots (I knew of no one during that time, but I've read were papa Bear did at grouse haven back then), do I wish it was still like that, yes, but I also would like to go back to .25 to .40 cents a gallon gas also, I wish alot of things would go back to the way they were, just don't think any will happen again, so is life.
I have area's I hunt with no bait/food plots, and I have spots were I've hunted with bait & food plots, most of my bucks have came with no bait or food plots, (you can guess were most of my hunting is done at). As I said before, I used to pattern deer, now I mostly pattern hunters, I had to change. Joining hunting forums also helps me to keep up with what hunters are thinking & doing also, guess maybe it's part of my patterning, LOL.
As for bait pile vs. food plot, I'am sorry, but I see no different between the two, other than food plots seem to work better for shooting deer, both change deer's habits, anything that lives in the wild, will spend less energy for the most food as possible, when the pressure starts & there's more food than deer, they will feed at safer times, (after dark) for the most part. As for fare chase, I know what it means to me, but who am I to tell someone else what it is for them, I don't feel I've got the right to do so, but if I not like the way you hunt I do have the right not to go hunting with you, but beond that not much else.
I know I might view thing different than most, being called different before, & it is usually one of the nicer things I been called in the past, LOL. I grew up hunting, it's what & who I am, I would never called hunting a sport, I track down & kill things & eat them, I feel no need to drive a dead deer around, & show people, killing a deer is a very personal thing with me, but thats me, everyone does what they feel is right for them. Also, I'll go hunting with a longbow or recurve not because it's harder, or more traditional (whatever that is) it's because that's how I started, & over the years it's what I enjoy shooting the most, I love the feel of the limbs bending, can't explain it, I just love the feel. Now I also flyfish, & when doing so I practice catch & release, I do call that a sport.
As I posted before I've seen many changes in hunting over the years, some I feel are good & some bad, but that my view, I don't feel I have the right to tell someone else what they should do as long as it's legal. everything has (+) & (-) sides to it, & I think it always will.
Now my views on this is about deer hunting only, I have no real view on baiting bears, I don't hunt them, me & the bears around here have a agreement so to say, they don't mess with me, when I only have a split bamboo fly rod in my hand, & I will not mess with them during bear season, & as long as they live up to there in, I'll live up to mine. LOL.
No one going to change anyones mind, but thank you for letting get my veiw off my chest, with all my posts on this thread. LOL


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## voodoofire1 (Jan 24, 2006)

I have no problem with it, and if it were legal here I'd be doing it too, because contrary to popular belief, living in agricultural areas doesn't mean it's a shooting gallery, sure sometimes there are isolated pockets of primo deer, but they are the exception and not the rule , every area has it's own unique challenges and ways to overcome them........


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## WindWalker (Jan 23, 2005)

> every area has it's own unique challenges and ways to overcome them........


Yep! It's called learning as much as you can about the game you are hunting, learning all you can about the territory you are hunting, determine the habits of the game in that particular territory, and apply the knowledge when you hunt. Outwitting the game on their level is the real challenge; plunking them while they are totally engrossed in feeding at the local MacFeeder affords absolutely no challenge for me.


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## Jim Casto Jr (Aug 20, 2002)

WindWalker,

Curious.... Would you “hunt” pronghorns from/near a windmill water tank in Wyoming; or, stalk peccary along a baited sendero in south Texas; or, pigs over a feeder in the swamps of Florida, or a black bear over bait in the bush of eastern Canada?


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## WindWalker (Jan 23, 2005)

> Would you “hunt” pronghorns from/near a windmill water tank in Wyoming; or, stalk peccary along a baited sendero in south Texas; or, pigs over a feeder in the swamps of Florida, or a black bear over bait in the bush of eastern Canada?


Would you “hunt” pronghorns from/near a windmill water tank in Wyoming: No.

_Stalk_ peccary along a sendero: Yes

Stalk peccary along a baited sendero: No

Pigs over a feeder in the swamps of Florida: No

Black bear over bait in the bush of eastern Canada: No

Would you fish for crappie with a dip seine: No


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## voodoofire1 (Jan 24, 2006)

WindWalker said:


> Yep! It's called learning as much as you can about the game you are hunting, learning all you can about the territory you are hunting, determine the habits of the game in that particular territory, and apply the knowledge when you hunt. Outwitting the game on their level is the real challenge; plunking them while they are totally engrossed in feeding at the local MacFeeder affords absolutely no challenge for me.


Evidently you missed the part where I said this isn't a shooting gallery here, matter of fact, the deer here are few and far between, wanna see?...Consider this an invite to hunt with me.....


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## WindWalker (Jan 23, 2005)

> the deer here are few and far between,


And?

PS: Why are the deer few and far between?


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## Jim Casto Jr (Aug 20, 2002)

WindWalker,

Well sir, I tip my camo cap (or felt Barcelona—depending on the time of year) to you… you’re consistent, and appear to be confident and comfortable with your self-set standards. 

In answer to your original question, yes, I would, and have shot critters over feeders and bait. I’ve done it all, spot & stalk, ambush, still hunt, calling, and over food/water sources (natural and manmade), and I know the difference. My absolute favorite way to hunt is calling. There’s just nothing like turning a mature buck with a grunt tube or antlers and watching him come on a string straight to you; or, a screaming bull coming into bow range, or an old longbeard gobbling his head off making his way toward a broadhead. Next, I guess, would be spot & stalk. But, like I said…. I’ve done it all and enjoyed my time and effort at each one. 

I don’t understand the mindset of folks who think baiting deer is despicable but will sit over a water tank for pronghorns, or over a bait waiting for a black-bear; or, won’t hunt a 25,000 acre high-fence Texas ranch, but will fly to South Africa and hunt a 15,000 high-fenced concession for plains game.

I don’t have any issues with how anyone else does it, as long as it’s legal, and I make no judgments with the standards everyone sets for themselves, but I do have problems with some pimply-faced punk, or some sanctimonious old-phart telling me what and how “I” should do it. :^)


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## WindWalker (Jan 23, 2005)

It's always been the "chase" for me. Without the chase I would not hunt. After some hard work and long hours I have been but a string pull of being the winner, only to be outwitted within the last seconds. I simply smile, nod my head, and mentally say: "You da man...or girl." For me, those kinds of incidents are as enjoyable sans a kill.


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## bldtrailer (Feb 2, 2010)

What it comes down to is some "HUNTERS "are willing to learn the habits of the hunted and it is called WOODSMANSHIP and some are LAZY and would rather the hunted hunt the bait they Put out(we called them slob/city or in some areas poachers) Just because it's leagle doesn't make it RIGHT (killing the un-born) It takes skill to read sign , track and find natural food/ water sources. It takes nothing to dump a truck load of crop on the ground(or in a feeder). and growing food crops and controling the destuction of the farmers fields was considered a public servise. Haveing land and planting JUST THE KILL OVER is still BAITING, you just are less lazy then the feeder/ dump on the ground guy( the food will help the herd) but it just means you have deeper pockets then the baiter(you own or lease land) Eather( baiting or food plot) has all the thrill of a canned or live stock(penned hunt) Most have swallowed the TV and addvertised notion that you need thier product(store bought) to kill a buck/deer. READ tHE WIND< FIND THE DEER SIGN AND REALLY HUNT, who knows you just might enjoy the HUNT


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## WindWalker (Jan 23, 2005)

bldtrailer:

Don't beat around the bush; just say what you believe.


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## Jim Casto Jr (Aug 20, 2002)

No sir, not bashful about calling like he sees'm, huh? :^)

So.... which one are you.... the pimply-faced punk, or some sanctimonious old-phart? lol lol

You really need to get hold of yourself. Going thru life putting youself on such a high pedestal might prove to be harmful.


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## JParanee (Oct 13, 2009)

Wow......


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## JParanee (Oct 13, 2009)

Threads like this just bring out the best in people


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## bldtrailer (Feb 2, 2010)

Some things in life can't be bought... But must be earned : ) That's the BEST in LIFE !!!


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## bldtrailer (Feb 2, 2010)

P.S NOT A Pedestal A TREE STAND ( I stand for what I Believe in.)


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## RackAttak (Mar 7, 2012)

Ive shot plenty of deer in Michigan when they have a carrot in their mouth. Some out of spite of sitting there eating non stop.


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## Jim Casto Jr (Aug 20, 2002)

bldtrailer said:


> P.S NOT A Pedestal A TREE STAND ( I stand for what I Believe in.)


You mean to tell me a guy of your high standards, has the audacity to take advantage of animals by ambushing them from a treestand? Heck, I figured you’d surely get down on the ground and hunt them at their level. Gee Whiz! Anyone can sit in wait—sooner or later a deer is going to walk by. Here I thought you really had standards (like WindWalker). I’ll bet you’d even sit over a waterhole too—huh? 

Some of you guys really crack me up. lol lol


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## bldtrailer (Feb 2, 2010)

Road hunting, spotlighting and shooting the day before the season, It's all were you draw the line ( and the last deer I harvested was from a ground blind, eye level 15yrds)


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## Easykeeper (Jan 2, 2003)

Sorry, this is long...

These threads are definitely interesting. I'm not sure what is more apparent though, the different attitudes about the topic in question or the ability of members to frame a coherent post and carry on a dialogue without it degenerating into another accusatory name calling fest.

_*Let's face it, we all bait, it's just a matter of degree and it's up the the individual to decide where on the spectrum is their personal line of "fair".*_ Everybody has an opinion and nobody is really right or wrong as long as they are following the law IMO. Even when I am hunting in a big woods, no agriculture situation, I still look for natural attractants and movement concentrating terrain conditions...all could be considered bait to a certain degree. The closest to no bait at all would be a spot and stalk hunter, but I would assume even then they concentrate their search and "spot" in areas known to concentrate game like feeding or bedding areas. Any kind of calls...bait. Duck and goose decoys...bait. All forms of fishing I can think of include some kind of bait.

Baiting is really a matter of degree and concentration. We could do a little math and make some simple comparisons.

Lets set up some conditions:
- One acre equals 43,560 sq. ft. 
- Bow range, let's assume a compound hunter since that's where many of us came from and trad hunters will be in the same set only more restricted. Let's assume a maximum range for the bowhunter of 40 yards. I think most will agree that is reasonable for most compound shooters.

*First scenario - Bait pile vs. small food plot (1 acre or less).*
The bait pile is only a matter of a few square feet and can usually be covered 100%. The food plot covers an area of 43,560 sq. ft. and for simplicity sake lets say it is circular. The radius of that circle is 39.25 yards so if there is a tree in the middle our archer can cover the whole area assuming there is a clear shot in all directions. Usually the treestand or blind is located on the edge, giving at best coverage of 50% the area of the plot. Of course the archer could cover approach routes to the plot, sometime the best chance for a shot. But then they also have to choose which approach routes to cover.

*Second scenario - Bait pile vs. large food plot (1-5 acres. Not uncommon, think of a small hayfield).*
Once again we are comparing a bait pile with 100% coverage. The 1-5 acre food plot will cover an area from 43,560 to 217,800 sq. ft. Once again for simplicity assume it's round. At best our archer will be able to cover 1/5 or 20% of the area, less if they are on the edge. The archer can cover some approach cover but must now put some effort into determining where and when deer are entering the plot.

*Third scenario - Bait pile vs. small corn field, corn is at an edible stage (lets say 40 acres, relatively small).*
Again, the bait pile is 100% coverage. A 40 acre field is 1,742,400 sq. ft. Here we need to deviate since I have never seen a round corn field and only rarely are there trees in the middle. At best, an archer hunting the edge with be able to cover half an acre of the field or 1.25%. There are also many good opportunities as deer approach the field for an archer either on the edge or back in cover a ways. This requires some a bit of knowledge and analysis of deer movement though.

All of these simple scenarios are baiting to some degree, assuming we define "bait" as something that will attract deer or influence their travel patterns. We are using something the deer want and will go to to help us predict their movements and get us in range for a shot. 

_The problem is, and the arguments start, when people equate hunting over a bait pile to anything other than a very small food plot, and even then the comparison is weak. *This in no means meant as a slam on those that hunt over bait piles, but it gets annoying to constantly hear it proclaimed as the "same thing" as hunting over a decent sized food plot or agriculture field*. There may be similarities but to proclaim it as the "same thing" is a vast over simplification. It's up to everybody to determine where and how they hunt and it's their own business, assuming they are following the law in my opinion._

And I didn't even get into the other year round and secondary advantages for deer and wildlife of well designed food plots.

Rant over. Doubt many people got this far anyway.


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## Jim Casto Jr (Aug 20, 2002)

bldtrailer said:


> Road hunting, spotlighting and shooting the day before the season, It's all were you draw the line ( and the last deer I harvested was from a ground blind, eye level 15yrds)




Drawing lines? Yes sir, that's what the conversation is about, but you've brought in illegal activity, and it doesn't have anything to do with it. No one here has advocated being an outlaw, poacher, liar or horse thief.

Lines are fine, except where individuals are concerned. When you add the human factor, you end up with a jagged line, and even some curves along the way. I know several guys who live and hunt in the west. They’ve never hunted from a tree stand, and consider it as taking an unacceptable advantage of animals. There’s nothing wrong with personal goals and standards; the problem comes when you set standards for everyone else.


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## HoughsArchery (Oct 7, 2011)

When you think about it, how much different is it than hunting over a corn or bean field.

Sent from my PC36100 using Tapatalk 2


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## Wayko (Dec 22, 2011)

Easykeeper, Your math makes sence, but there are other factors to get the whole picture, like I said I currently hunt with & without bait & food plots and with them, the reason I post this is around my neck of the woods people have been debateing this for a long time (baiting vs. food plots) my only problem I see with the debate is the ones that grow food plots put themself above (think there a higher level of a hunter or it's really harder to shot a deer over a food plot then a bait pile). My testing has not showen that at my wifes blind, & a few buddies hunting areas, The fact I've found is food plots lead to more shooting chances then bait piles, that may have not been the case when baiting was unlimited around here, I never tested then.

The areas around here, & others from what I here, where baiting is currently allow, is no more then 2 gallons of bait to be on the ground, spread over an area no smaller then 10' x 10' area per hunting area, & can only be out during hunting season, lets face it, if there any amount of deer in the area that is gone alot of times in one night, meaning a person would have to walk around there hunting area everyday during season, & if anyone hunts a pressured area for deer you know what that does to your hunting. Small food plots the food is for most of the year & it gets ingrained in deer patterns, etc. This is one of the main reasons food plots allow for more shots. 

Hey for the most part, I like food plots, they work better then baiting for sure around here, if thats the way you want to hunt, helps with turkeys, less walking around, etc. means more deer seen & shooting, during hunting hours, etc.

But, IMO, the ones with food plots who think there a higher level of a hunter, then ones who bait, does not hold water, IMO. Lets look at the ones who have food plots where baiting is legal, & look down on baiters: They own land, most baiters do not, this debate about who a better hunter is, someone who hunts over bait vs. someone who hunts over a food plot, seems more like class warfare to me. Anyone who hunts over a food plot, & thinks they have a higher standard of fare chase so to say then a baiter (where legal) needs to look deep down inside themself, & get to the real reason, they might find the real reason, maybe is more along the lines of, I'am a land owner & it bugs me to think some low life baiter on public land might get one of my deer, or maybe they just need to look down on someone to make themself feel better, who really is just like them, the biggest different between the 2 is food plots (land owners) - baiters (public land hunters), IMO, thats more of the heart of the debate of one vs. the other.


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## MrSinister (Jan 23, 2003)

It is not legal in my state and I am glad it is not. If I wanted to shoot over a feeder I would go shoot a cow. More meat there any way.


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## Chris Segina (May 2, 2012)

Slightly different scenario but what do you guys think about this. On one place where I hunt Multaflora rose grew up and made basically a fence that prevented deer from crossing into an area and routed them down into some low pine thickets that are way too thick to get a shot into that ended up in a wind damage bedding area. So I went up and cut a 20' section out of the briar patch that allowed them to cut the corner on their way down that put them past one of my stand sites. So I altered the "natural" environment to create a choke and when my neighbors corn gets chopped and they come in at night to feed on the spillage those first few mornings its like having those deer come out of a gate in bow range. Is this unethical, I don't believe it is but just wonder what some other opinions are.

chris


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## Easykeeper (Jan 2, 2003)

Sounds like a smart move to me. I do similar things all the time. I will pinch a part of my wire fence to encourage them to cross there. I will "enhance" a blowdown in the woods to encourage them to go around one end or the other. I just got done mowing several acres of clover and alfalfa and when I done mowed a couple paths from the edge of my property to corners of the fields through about 20 acres of fallow pasture. Deer are lazy (I can relate to that...LOL) and will follow the path of least resistance. Doesn't always work but sometimes...

One time several years ago I bushwacked and made a 3/4 mile trail through the woods on public land, never cutting anything bigger than finger size brush and moving dead logs. I made it so it wasn't visible unless you knew it was there. Just something so I could move through the woods quieter to a tree I'd hang my climber in. Deer ended up using it for a trail. I never hunted it that way but sure could have.


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## Overkiller (Feb 12, 2012)

"Bowhunting" over a deer feeder is simply.....shooting deer with an arrow over a deer feeder. It could not be farther from "bowhunting" deer.


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## trapperDave (Mar 12, 2005)

WindWalker said:


> And?
> 
> PS: Why are the deer few and far between?


I can answer that for him. because our DNR has had an outright war on does the past few years. In Indiana you can take one buck (more on special draw hunts but I digress) and over 400 does legally/year


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## benofthehood (May 18, 2011)

I have posted previously in this read ... so there is no point re hashing my opinion , but gee whizz there is some self righteous grandstanding in this thread . 

I doubt I'll ever even see a 'feeder' lat alone an automated one ... and I wouldn't kill an animal at one even if the choice arose .... but I'd sure hate to see others legal methods of hunting impinged because the ranting of the "ethical" ....

As usual Mr Casto said it all quite well ...


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## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

are you folks serious?...what makes anybody here think that just because they shared their ideals and opines regarding the ethics of "Feed Or Not To Feed" that their way is the only right way and anyone who does or thinks differently is a schmuck?..and then get nasty with each other about it?..i think a little open-mindedness and subjectiveness is in order here as follows..

What about the mid-westerners who (due to lack of cover) even with the best blind and baiting methods are hard pressed to get within 50yds of a deer?

Or the guy that dishes out upwards of $25,000 to fly 1/2 way around the world to arrow a once in a lifetime cape buffalo..you gonna dis him for hang'in out at the watering hole?

I have my standards but i hunt the southeast...here we're blessed with many deer and lotsa cover...so here i feel it's not fair chase to hunt over a feeder...yet i have no objections to finding out where the bedding areas, acorns and streams are..but?...that's just me...and just because that's the way i do it doesn't mean it gives me the right to be nasty with someone who doesn't do as i do as they may have their reasons and they may be darn good ones.

Sorry....i just hate to see the bickering folks...we're all archers and that says something to me right there...as i don't care if it's compound or trad...it takes a special kinda person to prefer bowhunting over other forms of harvesting game..now if we could just learn to treat each other like we're special...we would have unity instead of dis-unity and if there was ever a time hunters need to be united?

Just a thought and L8R, Bill. :cool2:


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## WindWalker (Jan 23, 2005)

> In Indiana you can take one buck (more on special draw hunts but I digress) and over 400 does legally/yea


.

Know what you mean. Over the years I have seen the results of wildlife management implemented by and through the conservation departments do greater harm than good to the game populations.


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## WindWalker (Jan 23, 2005)

*Food plot = baiting* 










*Food plots = not baiting*


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## BarneySlayer (Feb 28, 2009)

I think baiting is fair, if you're wearing the bait, have a boom box playing some really bad rap music, or death metal, or Justin Bieber, and give a warning shot with a golf ball first. If you can't scare it off, it's pretty much self defense.


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## JParanee (Oct 13, 2009)

JINKSTER said:


> are you folks serious?...what makes anybody here think that just because they shared their ideals and opines regarding the ethics of "Feed Or Not To Feed" that their way is the only right way and anyone who does or thinks differently is a schmuck?..and then get nasty with each other about it?..i think a little open-mindedness and subjectiveness is in order here as follows..
> 
> What about the mid-westerners who (due to lack of cover) even with the best blind and baiting methods are hard pressed to get within 50yds of a deer?
> 
> ...



Good post Bill


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## reddogge (Jul 21, 2009)

Nothing like a good ole baiting thread to get the moral compasses spinning like ceiling fans. I'd like to invite a couple of these guys to Dorchester Co. MD to do a little Sika hunt in the marsh....."spot and stalk" only. Ha ha.


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## voodoofire1 (Jan 24, 2006)

Thanks Trapperdave, and let me add that some of the se fellas around here are deer killin machines.........I've been at this a long long time, killed my first deer in the early 70's and have killed many more since, I love the chase, I love the wait, the search, the learning, I love the hunt, period........ but, just being diagnosed with cancer changes things a bit, and as much as I love the hunt, I wanna kill some deer, I'm tired of screwing around, and any legal means is ok with me, life is short, if it's legal and makes you or me happy, then who the hell is anyone to tell us different, it's my life, my way........ no regrets.


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## Easykeeper (Jan 2, 2003)

voodoofire1 said:


> Thanks Trapperdave, and let me add that some of the se fellas around here are deer killin machines.........I've been at this a long long time, killed my first deer in the early 70's and have killed many more since, I love the chase, I love the wait, the search, the learning, I love the hunt, period........ but, just being diagnosed with cancer changes things a bit, and as much as I love the hunt, I wanna kill some deer, I'm tired of screwing around, and any legal means is ok with me, life is short, if it's legal and makes you or me happy, then who the hell is anyone to tell us different, it's my life, my way........ no regrets.


:thumbs_up


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## WindWalker (Jan 23, 2005)

> "spot and stalk" only. Ha ha.


Someone say that unless you hunt by spot and stalk, you are not a hunter?


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## voodoofire1 (Jan 24, 2006)

Is ambushing a poor little deer actually hunting?,lol,lol........


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## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

voodoofire1 said:


> Is ambushing a poor little deer actually hunting?,lol,lol........


uhmmmm.....YEP! :laugh:


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## reddogge (Jul 21, 2009)

WindWalker said:


> Someone say that unless you hunt by spot and stalk, you are not a hunter?


Being facitious. Anyone who has hunted for them there knows spot and stalk is impossible in swamps with hip boots on. Baiting is big down there on private land only.


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

I MUCH rather spot and stalk or use calls than to sit in a treestand over bait or a food plot...BUT...I know each and every circumstance can be unique.

I don't look down on any archer who hunts legally by whatever means they choose.

For some people it's more about putting meat in the freezer. For others it's the pursuit and challenge and for others it's about the size of the rack.

As long as a hunter is hunting legally and is trying to do everything they can to insure a quick clean kill...I'm TOTALLY fine with it.

I'm not going to judge a hunter based on whether they stalk, hunt from a treestand, use a gun, hunt over a corn field or over a bait...but at the same time....I also know what is harder or the more challenging techniques to use to fill a tag.

Ray :shade:


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## catscratch (Jan 5, 2010)

Have all of you actually tried to shoot a mature buck over a pile? I’ve tried a lot of hunting methods including: tree stands, ground blinds, spot and stalk, scents, decoys, travel routes, bedding areas, vocal calls, rattling, bait, food plots, mast producing trees, rut, cutting trails, blocking trails, lowering fences, temperature, wind, etc… I’ve even went so far as to leave a wind-up alarm clock in a thicket set to go off an hour after daylight so that I could ambush the buck as he leaves the hillside thicket on a known escape route. As a hunter I do not just pick a random spot and sit down hoping a deer walks by. I study the deer and try to take advantage of one of his three main needs; food/water, cover/shelter/safety, and sex. I routinely try all these things and still am unsuccessful the majority of the time. Of all the things I have tried in the pursuit of mature bucks the one I have abandoned is baiting. Not because I have an ethical issue with it but because it is the most difficult method of getting close to an old buck. In fact, I think the easiest way to shoot a buck is to hunt a scrape line near a deer’s bedding area. Throw a buck decoy up by this scrape line and it is much more like cheating than hunting over a bait pile. 

I’ve found that deer are wild critters and you can’t “make” them do anything, let alone what you want. To claim that putting out 1000lbs of corn out will make shooting a mature buck easy is just as foolish as thinking that throwing a lure into a pond that has a 12lb bass in it will make it bite! 

I could care less how other people hunt. Most forms of hunting are steeped in family or regional traditions. A common rifle season tactic locally is pushing draws. I grew up around it and it is a fun event, but not how I choose to hunt anymore. I’ve never seen anyone use dogs to run deer because no one does it around here but I’m not going to knock the guys who grew up doing it because that is how their family has done it for the last six generations. If someone wants to throw some corn out and watch does and yearling bucks run around for the last hour of daylight so be it. Who am I to decide what is important to them and how they feel about their hunt?


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## catscratch (Jan 5, 2010)

Oh ya, I sometimes use live bait when I'm trying for that bass. Chew on that a while


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## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

catscratch said:


> Have all of you actually tried to shoot a mature buck over a pile? I’ve tried a lot of hunting methods including: tree stands, ground blinds, spot and stalk, scents, decoys, travel routes, bedding areas, vocal calls, rattling, bait, food plots, mast producing trees, rut, cutting trails, blocking trails, lowering fences, temperature, wind, etc… I’ve even went so far as to leave a wind-up alarm clock in a thicket set to go off an hour after daylight so that I could ambush the buck as he leaves the hillside thicket on a known escape route. As a hunter I do not just pick a random spot and sit down hoping a deer walks by. I study the deer and try to take advantage of one of his three main needs; food/water, cover/shelter/safety, and sex. I routinely try all these things and still am unsuccessful the majority of the time. Of all the things I have tried in the pursuit of mature bucks the one I have abandoned is baiting. Not because I have an ethical issue with it but because it is the most difficult method of getting close to an old buck. In fact, I think the easiest way to shoot a buck is to hunt a scrape line near a deer’s bedding area. Throw a buck decoy up by this scrape line and it is much more like cheating than hunting over a bait pile.
> 
> I’ve found that deer are wild critters and you can’t “make” them do anything, let alone what you want. To claim that putting out 1000lbs of corn out will make shooting a mature buck easy is just as foolish as thinking that throwing a lure into a pond that has a 12lb bass in it will make it bite!
> 
> I could care less how other people hunt. Most forms of hunting are steeped in family or regional traditions. A common rifle season tactic locally is pushing draws. I grew up around it and it is a fun event, but not how I choose to hunt anymore. I’ve never seen anyone use dogs to run deer because no one does it around here but I’m not going to knock the guys who grew up doing it because that is how their family has done it for the last six generations. If someone wants to throw some corn out and watch does and yearling bucks run around for the last hour of daylight so be it. Who am I to decide what is important to them and how they feel about their hunt?


Great Post catscratch!..very insightful...so insightful in fact that i must ask..especially with the board handle..

are you "Uncle Ted"?

like ya'd tell me if ya were! :laugh:

my hunt'ins over today and i didn't even get'im! :laugh:


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## JParanee (Oct 13, 2009)

I have to agree with Catscratch in that in a non high fence situation big bucks seldom come to feeders in shooting light 

Sure some does and young bucks do but around here big old bucks don't get that way by being stupid.


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## catscratch (Jan 5, 2010)

JINKSTER said:


> Great Post catscratch!..very insightful...so insightful in fact that i must ask..especially with the board handle..
> 
> are you "Uncle Ted"?
> 
> ...


lol, that made me laugh. To answer your question; no I'm not the Nuge... but I wish I had his finacial freedom

Thanks for the compliment!


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## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

catscratch said:


> lol, that made me laugh. To answer your question; no I'm not the Nuge... but I wish I had his finacial freedom
> 
> Thanks for the compliment!


You're very welcome...you told it like it is!


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## olecowpoke (Nov 16, 2010)

Get down off you high horse boys….on both sides….and lose your feminine sensitivity. Last I checked, this is America (at least for a little longer), any you still have the right to speak your own opinion even IF it offends. Doing so may make you an *******, but many of us got ourselves shot to hell defending your right to run your mouth…..on both sides….AND we’d STILL fight to defend that right. Speak you opinion, say it anyway you like, be an ******* if you like, and if you choose to read what is written, stow your sensitive feelings. 
With that said, let’s consider Great, Great, Great Grandpa, who hunted to survive, who hunted to literally feed his family. He used everything he could think of to bag his game and fill his belly…otherwise He starved. He’d never believe WE would be planting food plots, ONLY to attract deer. He didn’t have that luxury. If HE planted it, HE ate it, and shot anything that tried to raid his planted field. In those days, hunters did anything they could to assure a game harvest. That’s how and why hunters developed blinds, decoys, game calls, blunderbuss guns, (etc.), so they wouldn’t have to just wait to get lucky over a ten thousand acre lake or forest or plain. 
But we ARE different today. We hunt as a hobby. I seriously doubt if any of us would miss a meal if we failed to harvest our game. So do we need game limits? Or should we simply hunt the Bison into extinction. Do we need self imposed hunting ethics? Or should we allow off season poaching of pregnant does? The question and answer is simple….Because some people can’t control themselves, because some people have no self imposed limits, morals or ethics, we must have civilized restrictions and regulations imposed on us….before we are all relegated to hunting high fence, high price, commercial game preserves because the government has gone broke and can no longer manage and maintain our natural resources. Is it different today than when G.G.G Granpa was hunting? Duh!!!

I suggest we forget all this other useless argurment, join together and fight against stuff that really matters…..like the United Nations Small Arms Treaty…..Have you written your Senator yet? How ‘bout the hoards that will soon be pouring over our borders because of the Presidents recent Executive Order of Amnesty for Illegal Aliens. Have you written your U.S. Representative, demanding Congress take action against Executive Branch for imposing legislation upon us without a Congressional vote? …..or how ‘bout we join together and use our guns for something really useful….like hunting down the million plus gang members who are manufacturing and selling crack, crank, meth and other deadly drugs to our citizens….our children....in our schools and on your own street….or maybe we should join together to fight the common socialist progressive politics that is sweeping over our nation and absolutely ignoring our Constitution. Need I go on?
Or maybe you’d just prefer to be offensive in you language to fellow hunters, or maybe you’d just prefer to be offended by someone who has the inalienable right to speak an opinion different than yours. Or maybe we’ve just discovered what’s wrong with ALL of us…..we’ve turned into a bunch of selfish, self absorbed ingrates who care more for an Archery Talk post that the ruination of our Nation….How ‘bout it guys?


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

olecowpoke said:


> Get down off you high horse boys….on both sides….and lose your feminine sensitivity. Last I checked, this is America (at least for a little longer), any you still have the right to speak your own opinion even IF it offends. Doing so may make you an *******, but many of us got ourselves shot to hell defending your right to run your mouth…..on both sides….AND we’d STILL fight to defend that right. Speak you opinion, say it anyway you like, be an ******* if you like, and if you choose to read what is written, stow your sensitive feelings.
> With that said, let’s consider Great, Great, Great Grandpa, who hunted to survive, who hunted to literally feed his family. He used everything he could think of to bag his game and fill his belly…otherwise He starved. He’d never believe WE would be planting food plots, ONLY to attract deer. He didn’t have that luxury. If HE planted it, HE ate it, and shot anything that tried to raid his planted field. In those days, hunters did anything they could to assure a game harvest. That’s how and why hunters developed blinds, decoys, game calls, blunderbuss guns, (etc.), so they wouldn’t have to just wait to get lucky over a ten thousand acre lake or forest or plain.
> But we ARE different today. We hunt as a hobby. I seriously doubt if any of us would miss a meal if we failed to harvest our game. So do we need game limits? Or should we simply hunt the Bison into extinction. Do we need self imposed hunting ethics? Or should we allow off season poaching of pregnant does? The question and answer is simple….Because some people can’t control themselves, because some people have no self imposed limits, morals or ethics, we must have civilized restrictions and regulations imposed on us….before we are all relegated to hunting high fence, high price, commercial game preserves because the government has gone broke and can no longer manage and maintain our natural resources. Is it different today than when G.G.G Granpa was hunting? Duh!!!
> 
> ...


Now that's what I call a Reality Check! :thumbs_up :wink:

Ray :shade:


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## Saggitarius (Oct 12, 2012)

The bottom line for me is that hunting over a feeder isnt hunting at all; it's harvesting. Nothing wrong with harvesting from an over-crowded deer population, just don't call yourself a "hunter". I bow hunt all season. I love being in nature and learning patterns of the deer and their habits and routes. It is a challenge sort of like a chess match and is very Zen for me. I have never hunted over a feeder and never will. Always seemed a cheap trick to me.


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## ChadMR82 (Sep 22, 2009)

As long as it's legal in that area, I don't have a problem with it. Not my thing but to each his own. I see it more of a problem with spreading diseases than anything else. Indiana has been hit hard with EHD the past few years. 

I think areas that allow it like Texas, have such high deer numbers that they allow feeders so more deer get harvested. Im not sure how different a feeder is from the two acre food plot I hunt over. I also hunt a small orchard and areas with lots of acorns.


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## Logos (Jul 29, 2012)

Seems to me that unless you're trophy hunting very selectively, most hunting from an elevated stand is an enhanced form of target practice in a target rich environment (unless deer are scarce in your area) so adding bait isn't going to make a lot of difference.

If you're trophy hunting, you can spend years (maybe a lifetime) watching the little deer before a trophy shows up, so bait would make that even more fun.

I vote for bait.

:amen:


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## jcs-bowhunter (Jul 7, 2007)

I find these types of threads very interesting from a couple perspectives. 

We have not yet defined as an overall bowhunting community what and what is not ethical hunting and what defines slob hunting. On one side of the equation people like me have a strong opinion on what is and what is not to us personally. There is a sliding scale or a la cart tendency to cherry pick the things we feel are appropriate and reject what we do not. Some of these things are baiting, crossbows, compounds, drop away rests, tree stands, mechanical heads, lighted sights, hunting shows, scent lok, food plots, QDM, driving, poison pods, dogs, game cameras, range finders, GPS, and so on. My personal definition is a portion of the list above. Therefore I'm as guilty as anyone for having a narrow definition on bow hunting base on my experiences and opportunities.

My concern on this topic is that the sense of being a sportsperson has eroded into being "something else". If you look at the list above and outline the items I do not personally agree with. I'm ok openly debating them with others, openly challenging a topic because it is "legal in other states" does not mean that I'm enabling a "divide and conquer" opportunities for the antis. It's an opportunity for us to collectively look into the mirror and ask if we like the "something else" we are becoming.

For the record I will not bait for deer (I'm too cheap to buy it), but will setup near food sources.


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

who cares - i don't care how anyone chooses to hunt - if you don't like baiting - don't bait - if you don't like treestands, don't use them - if you don't like camo - don't wear it, if you don't like xbows - don't use t hem, etc... - pretty simple stuff here - don't let trolls resurrect this stuff


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## 2413gary (Apr 10, 2008)

Dead in the freezer is Dead in the freezer I'm ok Gun, Arrow, Rock, Truck, Knife or a friend giving me venison


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## FORESTGUMP (May 14, 2008)

sharpbroadhead said:


> who cares - i don't care how anyone chooses to hunt - if you don't like baiting - don't bait - if you don't like treestands, don't use them - if you don't like camo - don't wear it, if you don't like xbows - don't use t hem, etc... - pretty simple stuff here - don't let trolls resurrect this stuff



Whoa there quickdraw!!!
The person who posted on this old thread is brand new here,post # 1. Probably just reading in the forum and decided to join up not realising it was an old post.

BUT, what about the OP of this old post? He is MIA. Anyone know anything about windwalker? Has he been posting in some other forum? Somebody gotta know something.


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## kegan (Aug 28, 2006)

My guess is that WW is out hunting?

Not sure if I posted before but lately I've been looking at it like this: if it's legal, then we all have an opportunity to take advantage of it. It's not really an unfair advantage at that point- no more so than one person using a compound while we choose recurves. Or someone using a mordern recurve while you choose to use a selfbow. Your choice.

Now, if it's not legal then it's not legal. You can petition or what have you to change it but if you're breaking the law you're doing something wrong. Plain and simple.


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## NickW (Aug 1, 2010)

A guy I work with pays big money to go every year to a fenced in Deer Farm. The farmer (for lack of a better word) drives him out to a tree stand, he dumps a couple bags of feed onto the ground, takes a club and bangs the $&!+ out of a metal garbage can lid then drives off. A few minutes later the deer come to dinner. Every year my workmate brags about the trophy Buck he’s killed, he shows everyone the pictures of him smiling away over his 200 class trophy. Folks, it’s a free country and it’s his money BUT, that’s not hunting IMO.


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## UrbanDeerSlayer (Feb 10, 2012)

Baiting would sure make my task easier. That task being thinning the overpopulated neighborhood deer herd. Then I could attract the deer into the pockets of woods I hunt instead of watching them cruise through the safe zones of manicured landscaping. If it were legal, I would not have a problem with it. But that being said I have no interest to go hunting on a preserve over a bait pile.


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

There were a bunch of guys on the WidowWall - the Black Widow Forum a few years ago that totally bashed baiting as unethical and slob hunting, supported by Fred Asbell who was also against baiting, but not as extreme as the other guys.

Well - a year later the WidowWall guys got together for a Hog hunt - I think at a place called Shilo Farms or something - they posted pics and videos of their hunt - they sat in treestands over huge feeders and a farm! Most of those guys were the same guys totally bashing using a couple gallons of corn or apples in the middle of a national forest to hunt deer!

Fred Asbell - who is also opposed to baiting - appears in the Black Widow Video - African Dreams - in which they hunt out of a shed right next to a man-made waterhole - in which you see dozens and dozens of animals of all sorts of species coming in to drink - a manmade waterhole in Africa is likely a much bigger attractant than a few gallons of corn or apples.

Also - most all these guys against baiting for deer have no problem baiting for bear!

Just like the guys against using hounds for bear - but have no issue using hounds for cougar - that hypocrite editor of TBM tried ot make a case that it was different if you used hounds for cats than bear - what a load of crap.

A few years ago my brother and I were in New York at the IBO World Championships and we met a board member of Wisconsin Traditional Bowhunters, he tried to convince us to join and we both told him that were were not interested because of their extremist stance against baiting. He then went on to explain how the club was unaimously in favor of this position. This was not true - at a board meeting they took a vote that had a handful of members at it and that vote was unanimous - they did not take a vote of all members, but anyhow - he then went on to explain how horrible baiting is, how it effects other hunters who don't want to bait, how it brings all the deer to the baiters bait, etc.... - as he was handing us this load of crap - his wife came up in the middle of the conversation - not knowing my brother's or my posiition on this - and she said: "I don't understand you guys - you are all against baiting, yet all of you on the board have food plots" If looks could kill that poor woman would be dead - my brother and I just shook our heads and walked away. I see this man and his wife quite often - he is the owner of R&R recurves - he won't even look at me!


These are hypocrites who do not even see their own BLATENT hypocrisy!

I say reasonable laws should be in place to give everyone a chance to hunt the way they want. A limited amount of bait does not affect other hunters and still allows those who want to use it, or in areas where it is nearly impossible to get close enough without it.


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## MAC 11700 (Feb 22, 2011)

Saggitarius said:


> The bottom line for me is that hunting over a feeder isnt hunting at all; it's harvesting. Nothing wrong with harvesting from an over-crowded deer population, just don't call yourself a "hunter". I bow hunt all season. I love being in nature and learning patterns of the deer and their habits and routes. It is a challenge sort of like a chess match and is very Zen for me. I have never hunted over a feeder and never will. Always seemed a cheap trick to me.



Welcome to the forum...since no one else is saying it..

Were all entitled to our own opinions..btw...regardless of what some here think..

Mac


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## Logos (Jul 29, 2012)

:banana:


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## kegan (Aug 28, 2006)

UrbanDeerSlayer said:


> Baiting would sure make my task easier. That task being thinning the overpopulated neighborhood deer herd. Then I could attract the deer into the pockets of woods I hunt instead of watching them cruise through the safe zones of manicured landscaping. If it were legal, I would not have a problem with it. But that being said I have no interest to go hunting on a preserve over a bait pile.


Good point, Tony! I think situations like these need to be taken into account.

I agree with Ken, many of these folks who scream "no baiting" are usually hypocrites. Food plots are bait for people with land, time and money. What about others? What about situations like Tony's, where he only has a pokcet of land to hunt to try and limit deer numbers for not only the sake of every motorist who drives too fast without paying attention but for the deer themselves?

It's a choice. Like I said before, it's no different than choosing the weapon you want to take into the woods. Put limits on how MUCH you can use if you're worried about hunters disturbing other hunters or animals becoming dependant. What I find ironic is that we have neighbors who don't hunt but will bait animals during hunting season to "protect" them. Now tell me, how does this not cause the same issues as hunters baiting? We still have tags and bag limits. You're still allowed to hang your tree in an orchard if you own it. Or a grove of white oaks. Now tell me, what sort of untehical behavior are you preventing?

Emotions seems to have free range of laws based on ethics. A small pile of apples to draw deer into a shooting lane is not the same as rasing a herd of pet deer and letting people shoot the one they want when you call them in to eat. Just as a modern compound, recurve, or longbow is not a child's toy incapable of doing anything other than wounding deer.

Wonder how many people who just rifle hunt that still feel that way...?


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## rattus58 (Jul 9, 2007)

Mo0se said:


> The way I see it, deer have natural feeding areas and as hunters, we scout and intercept them in between bedding/feeding areas. Creating a feeding environment that does not occur naturally is not fair chase IMO. So I do the legwork..that's part of the enjoyment for me. Others may see it differently and laws are what they are. I've never had to do anything but my homework scouting, and working the wind. I don't watch many Hunting shows either..most of those only focus on the size and quantity. I find them very superficial and lacking in quite a few areas..but that's probably another thread.


We're talking two different things here. There is an argument that some game departments have made that any artificial feedplot is baiting and that is illegal in some places. Where legal, is it fair chase? Like they say about porn... you know it when you see it.


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## Logos (Jul 29, 2012)

The inevitable spread of Chronic Wasting Disease will probably put an end to this argument, because all feeding of wild deer will eventually be judged unacceptable due to its contribution to spreading the disease.

:amen:


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

oh - really Logos - well if you believe that - I hope that this rut you will come to Wisconsin and roll the condoms on the bucks so that they can practice safe rutting - and while your at it put a fence up around every apple, pear, cranberry and other fruit trees - because if they are going to get CWD from two gallons of corn or apples per 40 acres thrown around - then they are going to get it from reproduction, from apple trees, from pear trees, etc...

This idea that CWD is spread by limited baiting is bovine excrement! Odd that baiting is allowed in Northern, WI and there is no CWD there - where it is banned is where the CWD is and there is no reduction in it - even though the morons at the DNR were telling us that if they did not completely erradicate the herd near madison the entire herd in the whole state would be destroyed in less than 20 years - what a load of crap.

I testified in madison regarding this baiting crap. I suggested that the wardens put condoms on the bucks to reduce the spread of disease, I also asked a female state senator, who was sitting next to a male state senator who was eating a sandwich if she thought she would be more likely to catch a disease from him by taking a bite of his sandwich or having illicit sex with him - the entire room erupted in laughter - and when they calmed down I explained that during the rut a buck will mate with as many does as possible and that if this disease is as contagious as the DNR would have us believe (if it is contagious at all) then it was going to spread like wildfire no matter if we bait or not! That lady senator was one of the ones on the fence - she voted to lift the ban on baiting!


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## Logos (Jul 29, 2012)

You seem to be a man of great passion and emotion, Sharp.

However, that never makes for the best judgement on complex issues.

:thumb:


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## rattus58 (Jul 9, 2007)

Logos said:


> The inevitable spread of Chronic Wasting Disease will probably put an end to this argument, because all feeding of wild deer will eventually be judged unacceptable due to its contribution to spreading the disease.
> 
> :amen:


Chronic wasting disease will take care of itself and if we're going to have an epidemic, let's get it on and get it over with. The survivors will be better deer and our management strategies will build bigger deer from better stock. Where do you get your information from anyways?


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## Logos (Jul 29, 2012)

rattus58 said:


> Chronic wasting disease will take care of itself and if we're going to have an epidemic, let's get it on and get it over with. The survivors will be better deer and our management strategies will build bigger deer from better stock. Where do you get your information from anyways?


It's sheer creative writing.

Doesn't pay well, but it's fun.

:wink:


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## Logos (Jul 29, 2012)

Here, try this though.

http://www.dnr.state.mn.us/mammals/deer/cwd/index.html


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## rattus58 (Jul 9, 2007)

Logos said:


> Here, try this though.
> 
> http://www.dnr.state.mn.us/mammals/deer/cwd/index.html


http://www.cwd-info.org/index.php/fuseaction/about.faqDetail/ID/209ea1b39c93f85dde9a5a4261400ea2

All yours said was that Minnesota wasn't going to allow feeding. They don't know though how it is transmitted... but its almost like HIV....


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## Logos (Jul 29, 2012)

They said:



> * The disease can spread from one deer to another following nose-to-nose contact, contact with saliva or other body fluids. By eliminating deer feeding sites we are reducing the potential for the disease to spread.*


Comparing it to HIV is preposterous.

Really, where do YOU get YOUR information?


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## rattus58 (Jul 9, 2007)

Logos said:


> They said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Let's see... transmission through bodily fluids..., urine, feces, saliva...

Whats YOUR knowledge of transmission?

Oh... and lastly..... I don't really give a chit...


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## Logos (Jul 29, 2012)

Honestly have no idea what you're talking about.

CWD has no similarity to HIV.


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## Logos (Jul 29, 2012)

Maybe you just have a poor understanding of how HIV is transmitted.

Here's how:


> blood
> semen
> vaginal fluid
> breast milk
> other body fluids containing blood


http://www.cdc.gov/hiv/resources/qa/transmission.htm

Now, if CWD were transmitted through semen, deer would be dying by the millions.

So, try to be realistic.


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## rattus58 (Jul 9, 2007)

Logos said:


> Maybe you just have a poor understanding of how HIV is transmitted.
> 
> Here's how:
> 
> ...


Ohhhh good grief.... let it go logos... for one thing, I don't give chit, for another.. i made an offhand comment based upon ... if you took it seriously... I'm apologizing to you right now. If you thought I cared... I'm sorry. If you thought that anyone knows how this works I'm sorry.


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

Logos - so you believe that cwd is transmitted though saliva or nose to nose contact - but not through the exchage of bodily fluids during mating - interesting - I suggest you take a pathology 101

For one thing - nobody fully understands what CWD even is - let alone how it is transmitted - there are theories - but all fall short - for example - there have now been several cases where an infected animal is found on a game farm - and then they kill all the other animals on that farm - sometimes hundreds - they all eat out of the same feeders, they dring from the same water containers, the live in the same pens - yet after they test all the others - they find that only the one had it? Obviously this is not a contagious disease - or at the very least - not a very contagious disease one that would be difficult to contract and perhaps only a small segment of the deer population is even susceptible.

common senes always trumps bovine excrement - even if the bovine excrement comes from "scientists"


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## MAC 11700 (Feb 22, 2011)

sharpbroadhead said:


> Logos - so you believe that cwd is transmitted though saliva or nose to nose contact - but not through the exchage of bodily fluids during mating - interesting - I suggest you take a pathology 101
> 
> For one thing - nobody fully understands what CWD even is - let alone how it is transmitted - there are theories - but all fall short - for example - there have now been several cases where an infected animal is found on a game farm - and then they kill all the other animals on that farm - sometimes hundreds - they all eat out of the same feeders, they dring from the same water containers, the live in the same pens - yet after they test all the others - they find that only the one had it? Obviously this is not a contagious disease - or at the very least - not a very contagious disease one that would be difficult to contract and perhaps only a small segment of the deer population is even susceptible.
> 
> common senes always trumps bovine excrement - even if the bovine excrement comes from "scientists"


Common Sense...that is 1 thing you are surely lacking...

http://www.sciencemag.org/content/314/5796/133

Maybe you should pull your head out of your rump and go take some more classes yourself just to stay current with what is being studied before acting like you know everything Ken..When studies show a direct correlation in transmission...it is usually a safe bet that it can happen in the wild as well..

Science and all of those men & women in that field are the key to finding out how to defeat this disease...and your disdain for them is totally asinine.BTW...they are fairly certain on a number of ways how it is being transmitted..not all of them though, but when the scientist of the CDC is fairly certain...you can bet they know a hell of a lot more than you

Mac


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

Mac, you childish name calling and insults are getting old - grow up:

http://www.unveilingthem.com/MadCowCopperDeficiency.htm

http://wildpro.twycrosszoo.org/S/00Ref/MiscellaneousContents/D109_EIS_CWD_Wisc/4_Background.htm - from this we find: 

*CWD is both transmissible and infectious, but specific details regarding transmission remain unknown * in other words they haven't got a clue!


_Contact between infected and non-infected animals via saliva, urine, and feces is the *most likely *route of transmission_ when scientists - real scientists who are much more arrogant than even Mac - say things like "most likely" that is their way of saying we are guessing - we really have no clue

_Computer simulations indicate that vertical transmission (in utero mother-to-offspring), if it occurs, is unlikely to maintain CWD in a deer population _ really - if it is in blood and saliva - but the offspring will not get it from their mother - like I said - use common sense here - what is the likelyhood that during birth no blood would be exchanged at all - or how about when the mother licks off the new born fawn - no saliva there!

over the years there have been reserachers who have disputed that prions even are the cause of this disease - they are quietly brushed under the rug - the bottom line is we do not know enough about this to make the statements that the DNR is making - we do know this - it only effects a SMALL percentage of the deer herd - even in a state, like Wisconsin that allowed baiting and freeding.


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## MAC 11700 (Feb 22, 2011)

sharpbroadhead said:


> Mac, you childish name calling and insults are getting old - grow up:
> 
> http://www.unveilingthem.com/MadCowCopperDeficiency.htm
> 
> ...


Really...the CDC doesn't have a clue...?

I don't know what planet your on...but...but come back down to earth boy. They aren't just talking about doing computer modeling in their studies...and they have shown the disease is transmittable not only in some grasses but infected feed...and for your information ...they still know a hell of a-lot more than you ever will..


Good Grief...talk about being arrogant...first you slam the sceintist working to cure this and now you act like you know more than them...

Mac


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## Logos (Jul 29, 2012)

Well, first of all--we are lucky that CWD is NOT generally passed along by the mating process--since mating is a big constant that can't be changed.

Second, we are lucky CWD is, apparently, NOT a HIGHLY contagious disease.

Beyond that, the bans on feeding deer are wise. Whenever deer are unnaturally bunched up (like around a feeder) there's a greater likelihood of spreading disease.

Anyhow, I stand by my original statement: if it does get bad (meaning tens of cases show up instead of the single MN case in the wild)--NOBODY will be allowed to feed deer. 

I hope we don't get to that point, and if the MN experience turns out good, we'll have a good paradigm and plan of attack for fighting future outbreaks.

And thanks, Rattus......I thought you were serious.

:amen:


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## ChadMR82 (Sep 22, 2009)

Maybe this thread should get closed. As usual, some don't play well with others and care more about causing an argument then having a sensible, spirited conversation.


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