# fastest trad bow



## Two Blade (Jul 13, 2008)

For longbows, the Border Griffon GL is REALLY fast. I have a A&H Archery ACS-CX and they are one of the fastest but using the numbers from Pete Ward's website, the Griffon GL is faster. If I read all the numbers right, wrote them down right, if Pete conducted the tests the same and if Pete's chrono is correct, the Griffon GL is faster. The numbers below are from www.peteward.com Go to Pete's 'Traditional Reviews' section and you can read his test on the Griffon GL and his test on four ACS bows.



The Griffon GL at a 27" 45# draw, looses a 668 grain arrow at 165fps.

The ACS 3 piece at a 27" 52# draw looses a 660 grain arrow at 165fps.

The 3 piece ACS that Pete's wife tested at a 27" 47# draw looses a 660 grain arrow at 159fps.

The ACS 1 piece that Pete tested at a 27" 48# draw looses a 636 grain arrow at 167fps.

The O.L.Adcock 1 piece that Pete tested at a 27" 53# draw loosed a 655 grain arrow at 171fps.


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## rattus58 (Jul 9, 2007)

I don't think you're going to find an answer this this. My Quillan is pretty decent for a recurve and the 21st century is pretty decent as well... and my Deathwish bow had an arrow catch up to a hyperaccelerating doe and penetrate from rear through left front shoulder... of course it was approximately 90-95 pounds draw weight at the time.... 

I think fast is one thing, accuracy, feel, balance, accuracy... are another...

Aloha...  :beer:


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## steve morley (Dec 24, 2005)

These threads always makes me smile, before the Compound and Chrono nobody really cared how fast their Bow was.

When I shot European Field champs this year I was the only Longbow not to put his Bow through the Chrono, I imagine plenty of Bows faster than mine but the name of the game is putting your arrow where you aimed and no who's got the fastest Bow, the only place a fast bow really matters is in Flight Archery.

Most of the top tourney shooters I've met over the years are winning because they have good shooting form, a well tuned rig and good aiming system. Speed helps reduce aiming errors but good form and a reliable aiming system will give a better result than a fast Bow, I see so many people overbow themselves thinking speed will compansate for form\aiming errors, it won't.

Bows like Border, ACS and Blackbrook cost quite a lot, beyond many peoples budgets, maybe a more useful question is whats the best overall performing bow for the lowest price.


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## alanraw (Feb 18, 2005)

Gary Sentman's longbows have a longstanding reputation for being not only extremely fast but also quite pleasant to shoot. Randy Dehnel claims that his Saxon recurves (Saxon American Traditional, Saxon Selkirk) are some of the fastest traditional offerings. I've also heard claims that Border's recurves (from Scotland) are extremely fast. The old Damon Howatt Hi-Speed recurves were supposedly speed demons...the old Dan Quillian Canebrake model (which some claim the Martin Hunter is modeled after) was supposed to be able to really smoke an arrow...the newer Martin Hunters are supposed to be fairly quick as well. I am sure that there are some that might claim that Black Widows are some of the faster ones available, but I don't know about that...

As far as the best performing _at the most reasonable price_, I would definitely give either the Martin Hunter or the Saxon American Traditional my vote. Both are quick (although I am inclined to give the Saxon the edge), excellent cast, shoot where you are pointing (again, I think the Saxon may be ahead in this aspect as well, but then again, it's a 50's style), and decently priced (usually between $450-$550 brand new)

On a peripherally related note, can anyone tell me why the Hunter is not shown in Martin's 2010 catalog?


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## sooperrooster (Apr 9, 2007)

ya was just wondering cuz someone posted that a blecher??? recurve shot ibo at around 260fps. seems unlikely to me but ya never know


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## sooperrooster (Apr 9, 2007)

ok found it belcher bow high speed of 257fps ibo
http://www.belcherbows.com/video_2.htm
thing sounds like a rifle going off. geez


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## BowmanJay (Jan 1, 2007)

Most modern LB's and recurves are "fast" by today's standards. Most of my Belcher LB's shoot my 500gr arrows at 165-180 fps. My Hill "wesley special" is slower at 146 fps or so. That belcher SSR recurve is very fast just as most black widow recurves are.


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## Viper1 (Aug 21, 2003)

rooster -

Concerning modern laminated bows, the fastest bow is the one that can safely shoot the lightest arrow with the thinnest (lightest) string. 

I think the link you posted, sorta confirms that. IBO is 5 gr / lb and NOT safe for most real world stickbow shooting.

Viper1 out.


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## bbairborne (Aug 7, 2008)

My ACS (A&H) [email protected] is shooting a 530gr arrow 200-202fps. I draw it to 29.5 which is about 62#s and what Viper mentioned, newer lams, materials let you get by with lighter arrows, thinner strings, etc. My string is 12 strand and I do have a OL Adcock that I have an 8 strand on. It is [email protected]

I gave up on speed though and like concentrate on the cast of the arrow and feel of the bow and it hits were I look. My 21st Century Edge is no dog but a bit slower and may be more accurate. It has darn sure harvested more critters.


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## flntknp17 (Mar 12, 2004)

Just gonna post a few numbers from experience shooting a lot of target styled recurves (in FITA type shooting speed does matter). 

My hunting bow is a 21" Hoyt Excel riser with CX900 limbs currently pulling 52# at 27". It shoots my hunting arrows (about 420 gr) 205fps. Same limbs on my 25" Matrix riser for target shoot a light target arrow around 220fps.

Several of my friends that I shoot with have long draws (30-31") and they can easily get high 220s with a hunting arrow and bow of the proper design.

I read with great interest the section in the Traditional Bowyer's Bible V. 4 by Dan Perry about the physics of why certain bows shoot faster and all the variables with it. He says (and proves through example) that a bow will either be capable of shooting a light arrow very fast OR a heavy arrow very efficiently and not both. The two ideas are mutually exclusive because they demand different things of a bow limb. A Hill style longbow is not pleasant, nor efficient to shoot with a light target arrow, and my bows with ILF style limbs tend to perform their best with lighter arrows because thats what they were designed for.

Just my $0.02

matt


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## WindWalker (Jan 23, 2005)

> fastest trad bow


For bowhunting, that would be one that consistently reaches the target before the target can avoid the arrow. 

The formula I use is: Known or gauged bow arrow speed + shooting distance from target.


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## kegan (Aug 28, 2006)

flntknp17 said:


> I read with great interest the section in the Traditional Bowyer's Bible V. 4 by Dan Perry about the physics of why certain bows shoot faster and all the variables with it. He says (and proves through example) that a bow will either be capable of shooting a light arrow very fast OR a heavy arrow very efficiently and not both. The two ideas are mutually exclusive because they demand different things of a bow limb. A Hill style longbow is not pleasant, nor efficient to shoot with a light target arrow, and my bows with ILF style limbs tend to perform their best with lighter arrows because thats what they were designed for.
> 
> Just my $0.02
> 
> matt


I disagree. A bow with a higher mechanical efficiency will shoot a lighter arrow better. A bow with higher sotred energy will shoot a heavier arrow better. It's the same old "longbow vs. recurve" of the 40's- all the stuff you'd read in Hill's books. It comes down to why shoot a heavier arrow when your bow can shoot the lighter arrows jsut as well? A well made R/D bow or modern recurve can do that- handle both heavy and light arrows. Old longbows stored alot of energy, but weren't very efficient, but heavier arrows help mechanical efficiency so you see they "shoot better" with heavy.

As for what's the fastest, Viper hit it on the head for actual number speed. If you're talking equal design, you'd jsut be going through the levels- longbow, R/D longbow, recurve, and _compound_.

That being said, I don't have any experience with acutal brands- I just make my own slow bows:zip:.


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## mossanimal (Apr 19, 2009)

So... DO these Belcher bows shoot 254 fps or not??? Seems unbelievable....


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## str8sh2ter (Sep 11, 2006)

*how about...*

the Sovereign Ballistic?Aren't sovereigns known for being one of the fastest /


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## Viper1 (Aug 21, 2003)

moss -



mossanimal said:


> So... DO these Belcher bows shoot 254 fps or not??? Seems unbelievable....


Probably is, but do you want to shoot a 5 gr/lb arrow from a 30" draw on a stickbow? I sure wouldn't. 

Viper1 out.


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## Warbow (Apr 18, 2006)

steve morley said:


> Speed helps reduce aiming errors but good form and a reliable aiming system will give a better result than a fast Bow, I see so many people overbow themselves thinking speed will compansate for form\aiming errors, it won't.


I've always assumed that all other things being equal a faster, flatter shooting bow would make distance estimation slightly less critical. I can't imagine any bow being forgiving of aiming errors since bows are supposed to shoot where you aim them. 



steve morley said:


> Bows like Border, ACS and Blackbrook cost quite a lot, beyond many peoples budgets, maybe a more useful question is whats the best overall performing bow for the lowest price.


I think this is a great point. People often start "what is the best [blank]" threads, but for most things "best" is subjective and the question is really more nuanced and involves some sort of compromise. As an example Consumer Reports, which doesn't test bows, often tries to come of with objective measures for "best" based on attempt to quantify various performance and quality metrics, but usually gives the nod to items that represent excellent value, providing very good performance and quality for a good price. 

When it comes to choosing equipment I'm some what subjective, but I like seeing the raw data for myself. Unfortunately, bows are rarely tested using objective standards and very few bows, whether from small shops or major factory manufactures, have published KE at the rated draw weight, Draw Force Curves, torsional resistance or any measure of handshock. And I've heard that one magazine that made detailed objective reviews of ILF limbs was threatened with loss of advertising by a manufacturer who's limbs were compared to those of other makers, which is too bad. When you look through the Hoyt ILF limbs the only details they offer are price, draw weight and length, the rest is all marketing hype and there is no way for someone reading through the Hoyt catalog to have any objective idea just what each price point in the catalog actually gets you--if anything. Same is true for most other makers, with 21st Century being a rare exception, offering Force Draw Curves of their bows, as **all** makers should, IMO>


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## mossanimal (Apr 19, 2009)

Thanks Viper... I didn't see the specs for that. Makes sense now...


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

Warbow said:


> I've always assumed that all other things being equal a faster, flatter shooting bow would make distance estimation slightly less critical. I can't imagine any bow being forgiving of aiming errors since bows are supposed to shoot where you aim them.


Estimating distance is part of the aiming process like the positioning of the bow arm is a part of an archer's form...at least that is how I explain it 

Ray


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## Viper1 (Aug 21, 2003)

moss -

Regarding speed. Don't think for a second that bow makers, and that includes the "trad custom" guys aren't concerned with it. A few years ago a well known bowyer made a statement that no traditional bow has reached a speed of 200 fps with a 10 gr/lb arrow. Don't know if that's still true or not, but the next thing you know he and a few other guys are starting to chrono their bows with 4 strand bow strings. Can't lighten the arrow, then lighten the string ... The numbers aren't 1:1 of course, but the effect is the same. 

Might be more prevalent in the compound community, but speed sells. Always did. Real question, if when does speed actually matter? That's a different debate.

Viper1 out.


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## kegan (Aug 28, 2006)

I think anyone who shoots past 20 yards appreciates a fast bow in terms of aiming. Of course, there are still lots of compound hunters who keep their shots to 30 yards and still want the fastest bow they can buy. Me? I think I'm just too mentally lazy to keep having to regauge distance, even subconsciously.


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## Warbow (Apr 18, 2006)

BLACK WOLF said:


> Estimating distance is part of the aiming process like the positioning of the bow arm is a part of an archer's form...at least that is how I explain it
> 
> Ray


I suppose so. Since I'm mostly shooting with my FITA recurve these days I tend to think of compensating for distance (adjusting the single sight pin) as separate from aiming. The two things are rather more integrated with my gapstinctive stickbow shooting.


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

Warbow said:


> I suppose so. Since I'm mostly shooting with my FITA recurve these days I tend to think of compensating for distance (adjusting the single sight pin) as separate from aiming. The two things are rather more integrated with my gapstinctive stickbow shooting.


As an added thought...I see adjusting the sight pin similar to how a barebow archer may adjust their arrow tip and/or a Stringwalker/Facewalker moves their rear sight in relationship to the target and the distance. Where the archer places their sighting reference while aiming is depencent on knowing or guestimating the target's distance.

Ray


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## flntknp17 (Mar 12, 2004)

kegan said:


> I disagree. A bow with a higher mechanical efficiency will shoot a lighter arrow better. A bow with higher sotred energy will shoot a heavier arrow better. It's the same old "longbow vs. recurve" of the 40's- all the stuff you'd read in Hill's books. It comes down to why shoot a heavier arrow when your bow can shoot the lighter arrows jsut as well? A well made R/D bow or modern recurve can do that- handle both heavy and light arrows. Old longbows stored alot of energy, but weren't very efficient, but heavier arrows help mechanical efficiency so you see they "shoot better" with heavy.
> 
> As for what's the fastest, Viper hit it on the head for actual number speed. If you're talking equal design, you'd jsut be going through the levels- longbow, R/D longbow, recurve, and _compound_.
> 
> That being said, I don't have any experience with acutal brands- I just make my own slow bows:zip:.



Did you read the part about "dry fire speed"? You can have two 50# longbows and depending on how their limbs bend they will have vastly different "maximum" speeds (the absolute limit of how fast the string will return to brace call "dry fire speed"). One will shoot a heavy arrow and a light arrow at the same speed (whip tillered IIRC) and one will shoot the light arrow far faster. Dan Perry tells the story of how he learned about this through flight shooting. I guess the take home message is that the type of limb and the type of material and the arrow weight are not the only three factors. The tiller is also very important. The "mechanical efficiency", as you put it is relative to the weight of the arrow and the tiller/design of the limbs.


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## kegan (Aug 28, 2006)

I'm pretty sure dry fire and efficiency are the same. For example, a whip tillered bow is NOT efficient, so it can't shoot a light arrow well (the energy isn't going into the arrow, but shock, vibration, and noise). However, a R/D bow is extremely efficient, so it shoots lighter arrows well also. Of course, a R/D bow also sotres more energy, so it can shoot both heavy and light arrows better than another style.

For example, I had a 76# selfbow shoot a heavy arrow faster than a 60# modern recurve (same arrow). Of course, a lighter arrow from the 60# bow was even faster than the light arrow from the heavy bow, because the big bow kicked in the hand so badly it would make me cry. Lots of energy storage- no efficiency!


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## junker (Jul 11, 2008)

kegan said:


> *I think anyone who shoots past 20 yards appreciates a fast bow in terms of aiming.* .


i fall into this category. my longbow and hunting recurve are both over 60#s. both shoot fast...but that recurve is really fast. i just recently started shooting it again. man, world of difference. you cant tell which is faster until you shoot over 15 yds. 20yds...not much difference but noticable. at 25yds....there's at least a 3" difference in the arrow dropping.

the recurve is 63# @ 29"

can't recall the longbow stats.....maybe 61# @ 28"


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## kegan (Aug 28, 2006)

junker said:


> i fall into this category. my longbow and hunting recurve are both over 60#s. both shoot fast...but that recurve is really fast. i just recently started shooting it again. man, world of difference. you cant tell which is faster until you shoot over 15 yds. 20yds...not much difference but noticable. at 25yds....there's at least a 3" difference in the arrow dropping.
> 
> the recurve is 63# @ 29"
> 
> can't recall the longbow stats.....maybe 61# @ 28"


I'm slowly becoming a speed freak, on a smaller scale of course (I think the fastest bow I've made was shooting 175... tops:lol. Still, if the bow shoots the same way as my slower ones, I have less issue shooting it at 20-50 yards, and can actually shoot at 60-90 when it strikes my fancy. Shooting at those distances is fun for me, unless I have to point the bow to the sky and _lob_ the arrow. Same for hunting. A faster bow builds my confidence for shots at 30 yards, and a slower one does not.


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## junker (Jul 11, 2008)

kegan said:


> I'm slowly becoming a speed freak, on a smaller scale of course (I think the fastest bow I've made was shooting 175... tops:lol. Still, if the bow shoots the same way as my slower ones, I have less issue shooting it at 20-50 yards, and can actually shoot at 60-90 when it strikes my fancy. Shooting at those distances is fun for me, unless I have to point the bow to the sky and _lob_ the arrow. Same for hunting. A faster bow builds my confidence for shots at 30 yards, and a slower one does not.


amen brother


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## Jamesw (Sep 14, 2007)

Tested at IBO specs lots of good bows will shoot in the 240-260fps range.ACS,Century,black swan,morrison just to name some will all do it with small strings.Many ilf limb risered recurve combinations can do it as well.Most would not be any pleasue at all to shoot however so those numbers really mean nothing to most of us. jmo


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## kegan (Aug 28, 2006)

Personally, I'd like to get to the point where I can make bows that will shoot a 7 or so gpp arrow from one of my bows (light FF string, long draw) at 200 fps. Even better if I can make one that will do that and still hold together for a while and let me hit a target


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