# D Loop height and it's effect on hold



## hrtlnd164

Tom Dorigatti (Field14) has a great read called Proactive Archery and covers loop placement in detail. You could also search his post history or just drop him a PM for his methods.


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## dmr400

Thanks...Already read it, and didn't find quite what I was looking for. Tom is a great resource though!


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## bigHUN

I am interested to read as well the d-loop placement but not sure about final effect on POI.
In my case my DST40 have a nice "D" shape (four thread serving above and about six below the nock with a loose pinch) and d-loop is about half way the berger hole low to the shelf, but
my new Absolute DST38 have a "P" shape (about the same nock point serving) but on this bow the nocking point center is exactly centered between axis...so this means the d-loop is slightly below the center....still tuning the position and may change the number of threads don't know yet....
Both bows are for long range shooting perfectly tuned, I hate to say that but I did tried once the paper from 5 meters (I believe this is a best distance for paper) and I had a slight high tear. I am not entertaining with paper at all anyway, just mentioning.


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## EmersonL

Three options for you would be advancing the top cam a little, advancing the top limb a little and/or coming out the bottom (tiller adjustments), or playing with stabilizer weight. Those will help you more than changing nocking point (which in my opinion is a much subtler feel). Other than that I imagine there are form changes that would help you as well, but that's a whole other can of worms...


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## AT_X_HUNTER

John Dudley covers it in an article he wrote discussing tiller tuning. not sure which one though. check out his website. lots of good reading.


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## RCR_III

I've heard Jesse talk about placement of the arrow in relation to the berger button hole and that he likes his arrow to run through the top of it. This will place his loop higher on the string in relation. He says he likes this because it allows him to weight the front more (meaning the bow will come out of the top of the x ring during his shot if there wasn't the extra weight there). 

I've noticed the effect of this. I run my arrow through the middle to a shade of the bottom of the berger button hole for the exact opposite reason. My grip is more of a medium to low wrist so I come out of the top of the target unless I run a lot of weight on the front, so this allows me to counteract that while going through my shot.


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## Carbofastdirect

Interesting, I suffer from the pin dropping low and often wondered if I raised the d loop and rest above the Berger holes would this help. 
I noticed on a YouTube video of Rio shooting in Vegas that at full draw his arrow looked to be above the bergers quite a bit. Could have been camera angle though


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## Huntinsker

If your pin drops out of the bottom of the target, it could also be a high back shoulder causing it. GRIV talks about it here. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UJN-9F7kHDc
That same thing was happening to me as I was getting tired while practicing. I remembered what GRIV said and made sure my back shoulder stayed low and it fixed the problem.


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## Carbofastdirect

Huntinsker said:


> If your pin drops out of the bottom of the target, it could also be a high back shoulder causing it. GRIV talks about it here. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UJN-9F7kHDc
> That same thing was happening to me as I was getting tired while practicing. I remembered what GRIV said and made sure my back shoulder stayed low and it fixed the problem.


Yeah watched that video and thought it might be it but when I checked MYSELF SHOOTING all was good. 
Don't get me wrong it not too bad and I cope with it well but if I could fix just 1 thing this would be it. Recon I'd give Rio and Jesse a run for their money then!! LOL


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## N7709K

Tiller may be an easier fix or adjusting peep height- changing loop height will cause a bunch of problems with getting a decent tune...

If it's a persistent dropping low with all rigs it's a shoulder issue and probably several other form issues... If it's one rig it's more than likely a fit issue with that rig and how it happens to be setup at the moment


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## Carbofastdirect

N7709K said:


> Tiller may be an easier fix or adjusting peep height- changing loop height will cause a bunch of problems with getting a decent tune...
> 
> If it's a persistent dropping low with all rigs it's a shoulder issue and probably several other form issues... If it's one rig it's more than likely a fit issue with that rig and how it happens to be setup at the moment



Very true, it's mostly me because the more I shoot the less I notice it. This leads me to believe its a form issue. Some rigs were better than others but I always noticed it. 
Super busy making stabs now and not shooting as much as I should be and I'm noticing it more.


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## cbrunson

N7709K said:


> Tiller may be an easier fix or adjusting peep height- changing loop height will cause a bunch of problems with getting a decent tune...
> 
> If it's a persistent dropping low with all rigs it's a shoulder issue and probably several other form issues... If it's one rig it's more than likely a fit issue with that rig and how it happens to be setup at the moment


This ^^^^^ 

If you raise the d-loop, you have to raise the rest to get it tuned, and then the higher you are above the shelf, the more distance from your hand you are and will be affected more by 2nd axis error. Left and right misses will be increase. As low to the shelf as you can get without vane contact is best. Tiller adjustment or timing advancement will only change the way it sits in your hand. If you are falling out the bottom, it is form related or mental.


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## tmorelli

cbrunson said:


> This ^^^^^
> 
> If you raise the d-loop, you have to raise the rest to get it tuned, and then the higher you are above the shelf, the more distance from your hand you are and will be affected more by 2nd axis error. Left and right misses will be increase. As low to the shelf as you can get without vane contact is best. Tiller adjustment or timing advancement will only change the way it sits in your hand. If you are falling out the bottom, it is form related or mental.


I agree with Jacob too....and I'm familiar with the theory you add but have never seen it come to fruition. I've absolutely had bows that performed their best with the nock point higher than "normal" above the grip/shelf/berger hole. 

Nock height has a simliar effect to aiming as tiller/timing do. 

Higher nock point (compared to grip)= more lift.
Backed off bottom limb...or in on top limb = more lift.
Advanced top cam = more lift.

Some of the best archers in the world (who have very good form) do some/all of these things to get their bows to aim where/how they want them to. It isn't always form or mental.....but like Jacob said, if it repeats itself across multiple setups, it probably is.


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## cbrunson

tmorelli said:


> I agree with Jacob too....and I'm familiar with the theory you add but have never seen it come to fruition. I've absolutely had bows that performed their best with the nock point higher than "normal" above the grip/shelf/berger hole.
> 
> Nock height has a simliar effect to aiming as tiller/timing do.
> 
> Higher nock point (compared to grip)= more lift.
> Backed off bottom limb...or in on top limb = more lift.
> Advanced top cam = more lift.
> 
> Some of the best archers in the world (who have very good form) do some/all of these things to get their bows to aim where/how they want them to. It isn't always form or mental.....but like Jacob said, if it repeats itself across multiple setups, it probably is.


Bubble splitting for wind compensation?


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## tmorelli

cbrunson said:


> Bubble splitting for wind compensation?


No, the idea that nock location compared to grip location affects forgiveness as it pertains to 2nd axis.


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## cbrunson

tmorelli said:


> No, the idea that nock location compared to grip location affects forgiveness as it pertains to 2nd axis.


You can see it with bubble splitting.


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## tmorelli

cbrunson said:


> You can see it with bubble splitting.


I'm unfortunately familiar with bubbling for wind. But, I've never made a connection between nock location and second axis "forgiveness."

I take it to mean that you are saying the POI value of a fraction of a bubble is greater the higher the nock gets.

Rough example of what I think you are saying:

Nock height vs grip = +1.5"
1/4 bubble = 3" @ 60 yards

Nock height vs grip = +2"
1/4 bubble = 4" @ 60 yards


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## N7709K

It's moving nock farther out from the point that the bow rotates around so I get the thought process- but I'm with you Tony, I've never seen it make an issue... If I bubbled for the wind I might?

That said- running too low causes way more inconsistencies than too high


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## fanio

N7709K said:


> That said- running too low causes way more inconsistencies than too high


That's interesting. Why?


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## cbrunson

N7709K said:


> It's moving nock farther out from the point that the bow rotates around so I get the thought process- but I'm with you Tony, I've never seen it make an issue... If I bubbled for the wind I might?
> 
> That said- running too low causes way more inconsistencies than too high


The "bubbling" was an example. We may be splitting hairs at 20 yards but further out, not having the bubble perfetly centered it can be a bigger issue. Of course, why wouldn't you have the bubble perfectly centered when you shoot? It's relative to forgiveness and error compensation. The lower the nock point, the less affected by it. 

What inconsistencies have you run into with too low of a nocking point?


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## N7709K

tuning issues off a blade, some up/down string(thats more due to the blade issues than anything) but the big one for me was how much the window closed for getting indoor and outdoor arrows to tune off the same blades- too low and it wouldn't work. Scores never matched or exceeded those of nock level or above center. bottom cam lean and rotation is stuff i don't really like fighting with either

i don't put much into setting second axis for what i shoot; its not important. If i shoot the same shot with the same bubble location they will print the same


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## Mestang99

This thread has perfect timing.

I had the chance to talk to a couple Hoyt Pros that told me the ProComp Elite likes an extra high nocking point. One had his X27's almost completely on top of the berger hole. To be honest it was high enough it actually drew my attention. We were on the line and he did not have time to explain his theory to me, but he strongly suggested I try it. After reading your comments it has me thinking...


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## chris3497

What do you shoot for a bow? I just started shooting again after 25 yrs but in the last two yrs I been putting people that have been shooting for the time I haven't to shame I guess I just have a gift for this plus it's one of the last things I can do with my son and daughter as a family. Ok as for nock I guess it really comes down to what you like and works for you. Do you death grip the bow or have an open hand like you should if so is it a high med or low hold I have an open low hold and o set my doop loop so my arrow is dead center of my berger holes. That is what works for me I can robinhood arrows at 20 to 40 on purpose and can cut a piece of paper in half at 20 and 30 yards. I have my bow tuned to me well I can set the scope at 20 yrds and go to 10 yrds put the pin dead on the center x and that is where the arrow hits. So I guess what im trying to say is make sure the bow is tuned as best as you can for cam lean and tiller/timing and just try different d loop spots till you find the point that works best for you. What works for a pro or me or anyone on here might not work for you we are all different is your draw length right are you pulling thought the backwall or does your bow have stoppers on the cams like Athens which is what I shoot and love to death smooth drawing and let down bow I have shot and with the cam stops it has a great backwall. to play with your d loop placement I would get one of tru balls bolt on d loops I know a lot of people don't like them much but loosing 2 screws is way better then trying to loosen a tied d loop without messing it up or your server up then start playing with it at different heights and with luck you will find that sweet spot. 1 thing that could help to is if you have a video cam. video yourself shooting or have someone do it from different shots side back and have a ladder for above shots so you can see your form to make sure that your not moving at the last second or something. I video myself and my kids it is a great tool to fine tune yourself. I hope that I might of gave you some ideas that's what this is site is for and it doesn't matter if your new at it or been doing it along time it is a great sport that's way I got my kids into it and know one should ever get put down for any question they ask about. I hope you get this worked out soon so you can live by my motto nothing but X


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## jmann28

chris3497 said:


> What do you shoot for a bow? I just started shooting again after 25 yrs but in the last two yrs I been putting people that have been shooting for the time I haven't to shame I guess I just have a gift for this plus it's one of the last things I can do with my son and daughter as a family. Ok as for nock I guess it really comes down to what you like and works for you. Do you death grip the bow or have an open hand like you should if so is it a high med or low hold I have an open low hold and o set my doop loop so my arrow is dead center of my berger holes. That is what works for me I can robinhood arrows at 20 to 40 on purpose and can cut a piece of paper in half at 20 and 30 yards. I have my bow tuned to me well I can set the scope at 20 yrds and go to 10 yrds put the pin dead on the center x and that is where the arrow hits. So I guess what im trying to say is make sure the bow is tuned as best as you can for cam lean and tiller/timing and just try different d loop spots till you find the point that works best for you. What works for a pro or me or anyone on here might not work for you we are all different is your draw length right are you pulling thought the backwall or does your bow have stoppers on the cams like Athens which is what I shoot and love to death smooth drawing and let down bow I have shot and with the cam stops it has a great backwall. to play with your d loop placement I would get one of tru balls bolt on d loops I know a lot of people don't like them much but loosing 2 screws is way better then trying to loosen a tied d loop without messing it up or your server up then start playing with it at different heights and with luck you will find that sweet spot. 1 thing that could help to is if you have a video cam. video yourself shooting or have someone do it from different shots side back and have a ladder for above shots so you can see your form to make sure that your not moving at the last second or something. I video myself and my kids it is a great tool to fine tune yourself. I hope that I might of gave you some ideas that's what this is site is for and it doesn't matter if your new at it or been doing it along time it is a great sport that's way I got my kids into it and know one should ever get put down for any question they ask about. I hope you get this worked out soon so you can live by my motto nothing but X


You can Robin Hood arrows on purpose at 20 and 40 yards lol?? Cut paper in half at 20 and 30. Hahaha. Great post guy


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## Huntinsker

tmorelli said:


> I'm unfortunately familiar with bubbling for wind. But, I've never made a connection between nock location and second axis "forgiveness."
> 
> I take it to mean that you are saying the POI value of a fraction of a bubble is greater the higher the nock gets.
> 
> Rough example of what I think you are saying:
> 
> Nock height vs grip = +1.5"
> 1/4 bubble = 3" @ 60 yards
> 
> Nock height vs grip = +2"
> 1/4 bubble = 4" @ 60 yards


Wouldn't the miss get closer to the bull if you move your arrow closer to the sight? When you cant the bow, the sight is still put on the target so the closer the arrow is to the level of the sight, the less it moves away from the "Point of Aim" that the sight is holding.


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## cbrunson

Huntinsker said:


> Wouldn't the miss get closer to the bull if you move your arrow closer to the sight? When you cant the bow, the sight is still put on the target so the closer the arrow is to the level of the sight, the less it moves away from the "Point of Aim" that the sight is holding.


Just opposite. If you cant to the right, you miss to the right. How much you miss by is determined by the distance from the pivot point on the riser (your hand), to the rest. Some people use this to their advantage in steady wind so they can hold the pin on the spot and counter act wind drift. Some others prefer to hold level and aim right or left of the spot. Both are estimations based on wind speed as to how far you compensate.


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## N7709K

When you have angled targets or footing bubbling helps a bunch- it helps in the wind as well, but you have to play a bit to learn how much


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## jaydub

chris3497 said:


> What do you shoot for a bow? I just started shooting again after 25 yrs but in the last two yrs I been putting people that have been shooting for the time I haven't to shame I guess I just have a gift for this plus it's one of the last things I can do with my son and daughter as a family. Ok as for nock I guess it really comes down to what you like and works for you. Do you death grip the bow or have an open hand like you should if so is it a high med or low hold I have an open low hold and o set my doop loop so my arrow is dead center of my berger holes. That is what works for me I can robinhood arrows at 20 to 40 on purpose and can cut a piece of paper in half at 20 and 30 yards. I have my bow tuned to me well I can set the scope at 20 yrds and go to 10 yrds put the pin dead on the center x and that is where the arrow hits. So I guess what im trying to say is make sure the bow is tuned as best as you can for cam lean and tiller/timing and just try different d loop spots till you find the point that works best for you. What works for a pro or me or anyone on here might not work for you we are all different is your draw length right are you pulling thought the backwall or does your bow have stoppers on the cams like Athens which is what I shoot and love to death smooth drawing and let down bow I have shot and with the cam stops it has a great backwall. to play with your d loop placement I would get one of tru balls bolt on d loops I know a lot of people don't like them much but loosing 2 screws is way better then trying to loosen a tied d loop without messing it up or your server up then start playing with it at different heights and with luck you will find that sweet spot. 1 thing that could help to is if you have a video cam. video yourself shooting or have someone do it from different shots side back and have a ladder for above shots so you can see your form to make sure that your not moving at the last second or something. I video myself and my kids it is a great tool to fine tune yourself. I hope that I might of gave you some ideas that's what this is site is for and it doesn't matter if your new at it or been doing it along time it is a great sport that's way I got my kids into it and know one should ever get put down for any question they ask about. I hope you get this worked out soon so you can live by my motto nothing but X


And an a.t. hero is born! I was diligently reading this post for useful information, and all was well until I had to read your autobiography. Im glad to be in the presence of greatness. I apologize for my post that added nothing to the topic at hand, but I wanted to give you the "atta-boy"that you are desperately seeking.


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## Huntinsker

cbrunson said:


> Just opposite. If you cant to the right, you miss to the right. How much you miss by is determined by the distance from the pivot point on the riser (your hand), to the rest. Some people use this to their advantage in steady wind so they can hold the pin on the spot and counter act wind drift. Some others prefer to hold level and aim right or left of the spot. Both are estimations based on wind speed as to how far you compensate.


Not sure you're correct on that one. If you cant to the right, you pin moves to the to the right and slightly lower. That makes you move the bow more to the left and higher to get to the same point of aim which leads to a slightly high, left point of impact. 

I also think the further away your pin is from your nock point, the greater the amount of lateral impact change when you cant your bow. 

I whipped these up to explain what I'm seeing in my head.

First one is our pin on target our grip and an arrow slightly above the grip and an arrow higher above the grip.








Second one is where they are "canted" about the grips central axis and where the pin and arrows move in relation to the amount of rotation.








Third is the same amount of rotation but now the pin has been moved back on target. Notice how far to the left the lower arrow is in relation to the original point of aim and then how much closer the higher arrow is in relation to the original point of aim.


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## jaydub

Huntinsker said:


> Not sure you're correct on that one. If you cant to the right, you pin moves to the to the right and slightly lower. That makes you move the bow more to the left and higher to get to the same point of aim which leads to a slightly high, left point of impact.
> 
> I also think the further away your pin is from your nock point, the greater the amount of lateral impact change when you cant your bow.
> 
> I whipped these up to explain what I'm seeing in my head.
> 
> First one is our pin on target our grip and an arrow slightly above the grip and an arrow higher above the grip.
> View attachment 1938314
> 
> 
> Second one is where they are "canted" about the grips central axis and where the pin and arrows move in relation to the amount of rotation.
> View attachment 1938315
> 
> 
> Third is the same amount of rotation but now the pin has been moved back on target. Notice how far to the left the lower arrow is in relation to the original point of aim and then how much closer the higher arrow is in relation to the original point of aim.
> View attachment 1938316


Wow. That is an awesome diagram. thank you.


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## cbrunson

Huntinsker said:


> Not sure you're correct on that one. If you cant to the right, you pin moves to the to the right and slightly lower. That makes you move the bow more to the left and higher to get to the same point of aim which leads to a slightly high, left point of impact.
> 
> I also think the further away your pin is from your nock point, the greater the amount of lateral impact change when you cant your bow.
> 
> I whipped these up to explain what I'm seeing in my head.
> 
> First one is our pin on target our grip and an arrow slightly above the grip and an arrow higher above the grip.
> 
> Second one is where they are "canted" about the grips central axis and where the pin and arrows move in relation to the amount of rotation.
> 
> Third is the same amount of rotation but now the pin has been moved back on target. Notice how far to the left the lower arrow is in relation to the original point of aim and then how much closer the higher arrow is in relation to the original point of aim.



Yes it looks good on paper but it is not relative to the sight pin. It’s how it comes off of the rest. What you are showing would make it miss to the left, but it doesn’t do that. Try it, you’ll see.


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## hrtlnd164

Huntinsker said:


> Not sure you're correct on that one. If you cant to the right, you pin moves to the to the right and slightly lower. That makes you move the bow more to the left and higher to get to the same point of aim which leads to a slightly high, left point of impact.
> 
> I also think the further away your pin is from your nock point, the greater the amount of lateral impact change when you cant your bow.
> 
> I whipped these up to explain what I'm seeing in my head.
> 
> First one is our pin on target our grip and an arrow slightly above the grip and an arrow higher above the grip.
> View attachment 1938314
> 
> 
> Second one is where they are "canted" about the grips central axis and where the pin and arrows move in relation to the amount of rotation.
> View attachment 1938315
> 
> 
> Third is the same amount of rotation but now the pin has been moved back on target. Notice how far to the left the lower arrow is in relation to the original point of aim and then how much closer the higher arrow is in relation to the original point of aim.
> View attachment 1938316


Now I am confused. The diagrams are not taking the arch of the arrow leaving the bow into consideration. Let's say you have a 15 mph wind blowing left to right. Those who bubble compensate for this will lean the top limb into the wind which moves the bubble to the right to compensate for this situation.


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## cbrunson

hrtlnd164 said:


> Now I am confused. The diagrams are not taking the arch of the arrow leaving the bow into consideration. Let's say you have a 15 mph wind blowing left to right. Those who bubble compensate for this will lean the top limb into the wind which moves the bubble to the right to compensate for this situation.


That's why they are incorrect. I understand what he is getting at, it just doesn't work that way. He would need a 3D or isometric view to incorporate the arc into it.


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## Huntinsker

cbrunson said:


> Yes it looks good on paper but it is not relative to the sight pin. It’s how it comes off of the rest. What you are showing would make it miss to the left, but it doesn’t do that. Try it, you’ll see.


So the arc when the bow is held vertically is entirely in the vertical "ZY" plane with zero "X" vector component. The arc only exists though because we raise the bow above horizontal to compensate for gravity. Gravity only works in one plane, the vertical or "ZY" plane. So if we only raise the bow to compensate for gravity, how would our arrow move laterally all of a sudden? Please don't think I'm trying to be a smart aleck with that question. Just trying to wrap my head around this. 

Here's how I imagine it. My bow is set up a little nock high so that if I affix the bow in a shooting machine so that the bow string is completely vertical while at brace, the arrow will be pointing down on a slight angle. If I was to shoot that arrow, it would take off on a slightly downward trajectory. I can tip the bow back a little to get the arrow horizontal to the ground and if I fire the bow that way, it will shoot horizontally and then descend straight down with gravity. The arrow doesn't arc because the bow makes it, the arrow arcs because I raise the arrow above horizontal. 

So, I have my arrow that starts out slightly on a downward angle, lets call it 5 degrees (and assume we have a binary with perfectly level nock travel), and the bow is in my shooting machine so that the string is perfectly vertical. Now I rotate the bow 90 degrees to the right so that my bow is laying horizontal to the ground on the "X" axis of a Cartesian coordinate system. My arrow that once was pointing 5 degrees downward on the Y plane is now angling 5 degrees left but is now horizontal to the ground (We're imagining that my arrow stays at the bottom of the rest and doesn't fall on the riser or side of the containment rest.). So if I shoot that arrow, it will travel horizontally to the ground angling 5 degrees off line to the left and will fall straight down as gravity pulls it. 

Now since an arrow doesn't change course because a sight is on the bow, we have to move the bow to where we want the sight, how does the arc make the arrow now travel the opposite direction when you're canting the bow with a pin on a target?

Here's a Cartesian coordinate system with the planes illustrated for reference.


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## N7709K

You are disregarding nock travel(your bow will have it worse than others) and the torque induced when cant is input. The bow doesn't sit true vertical either.


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## Huntinsker

N7709K said:


> You are disregarding nock travel(your bow will have it worse than others) and the torque induced when cant is input. The bow doesn't sit true vertical either.


So get rid of the nock high arrow and forget about the 5 degrees to the left. It still doesn't move out of its plane just because the sight is on the bow. The bow can sit at 45 degrees but as long as the string is perpendicular to the target, the arrow will only travel in a straight line toward the target and a straight line to the ground as gravity pulls it down. The arc is still in the "YZ" plane.


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## cbrunson

Huntinsker said:


> So the arc when the bow is held vertically is entirely in the vertical "ZY" plane with zero "X" vector component. The arc only exists though because we raise the bow above horizontal to compensate for gravity. Gravity only works in one plane, the vertical or "ZY" plane. So if we only raise the bow to compensate for gravity, how would our arrow move laterally all of a sudden? Please don't think I'm trying to be a smart aleck with that question. Just trying to wrap my head around this.
> 
> Here's how I imagine it. My bow is set up a little nock high so that if I affix the bow in a shooting machine so that the bow string is completely vertical while at brace, the arrow will be pointing down on a slight angle. If I was to shoot that arrow, it would take off on a slightly downward trajectory. I can tip the bow back a little to get the arrow horizontal to the ground and if I fire the bow that way, it will shoot horizontally and then descend straight down with gravity. The arrow doesn't arc because the bow makes it, the arrow arcs because I raise the arrow above horizontal.
> 
> So, I have my arrow that starts out slightly on a downward angle, lets call it 5 degrees (and assume we have a binary with perfectly level nock travel), and the bow is in my shooting machine so that the string is perfectly vertical. Now I rotate the bow 90 degrees to the right so that my bow is laying horizontal to the ground on the "X" axis of a Cartesian coordinate system. My arrow that once was pointing 5 degrees downward on the Y plane is now angling 5 degrees left but is now horizontal to the ground (We're imagining that my arrow stays at the bottom of the rest and doesn't fall on the riser or side of the containment rest.). So if I shoot that arrow, it will travel horizontally to the ground angling 5 degrees off line to the left and will fall straight down as gravity pulls it.
> 
> Now since an arrow doesn't change course because a sight is on the bow, we have to move the bow to where we want the sight, how does the arc make the arrow now travel the opposite direction when you're canting the bow with a pin on a target?
> 
> Here's a Cartesian coordinate system with the planes illustrated for reference.


It leaves the bow traveling upward on the vertical plane of the bow. When you cant the bow, it still comes off the bow the same, but gravity wont let it come back the the same plane in left the bow from. Does that make sense? If it was a laser shooting as you have depicted, you would be correct. The arc essentially rotates around the horizontal plane traveling away from you, but once it reaches its arc height, it continues traveling away from the aiming point instead of coming back to it like it would if it stayed on the vertical plane. 

If you are still not sure, go try it. compare the difference at say 20 and 40 yards. You'll be surprised how far it moves.


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## N7709K

The arc is in a 3 axis plane- as the bow is canted the arrow no longer sits true level on the rest. When you torque the bow to get Said can't the string doesn't track directly inline with center of the target. There is also spin drift to a degree, especially at longer ranges...


Disprove it all you want on paper- fact of the matter is in practicality as you change second axis poi changes left/right. I don't really care what a diagram looks like to illustrate it, i know it happens and I work around the real world output.


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## Huntinsker

cbrunson said:


> It leaves the bow traveling upward on the vertical plane of the bow. When you cant the bow, it still comes off the bow the same, but gravity wont let it come back the the same plane in left the bow from. Does that make sense? If it was a laser shooting as you have depicted, you would be correct. The arc essentially rotates around the horizontal plane traveling away from you, but once it reaches its arc height, it continues traveling away from the aiming point instead of coming back to it like it would if it stayed on the vertical plane.
> 
> If you are still not sure, go try it. compare the difference at say 20 and 40 yards. You'll be surprised how far it moves.


I understand that the arrow point of impact moves right or left when you cant the bow. But I thought you said that the arc allows it to move back toward the target when your pin is on the target. If you cant your bow 10 degrees and hit 3" left at 20, you'd hit 6" left at 40 because it keep traveling in a straight line. They way you made it sound, the farther out you go, the further toward the target the arc moves it, not away.


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## cbrunson

Huntinsker said:


> I understand that the arrow point of impact moves right or left when you cant the bow. *But I thought you said that the arc allows it to move back toward the target when your pin is on the target*. If you cant your bow 10 degrees and hit 3" left at 20, you'd hit 6" left at 40 because it keep traveling in a straight line. They way you made it sound, the farther out you go, the further toward the target the arc moves it, not away.


Nope not what I said. 



> If you cant to the right, you miss to the right. How much you miss by is determined by the distance from the pivot point on the riser (your hand), to the rest. Some people use this to their advantage in steady wind so they can hold the pin on the spot and counter act wind drift. Some others prefer to hold level and aim right or left of the spot. Both are estimations based on wind speed as to how far you compensate.


I said this ^^^^^^ See post #27

The distance from the arrow at rest to the pin on that plane changes based on the distance you are shooting. The arc height would increase for farther distances and increase the distance away from the aiming point because of this. It would be more than double at 40 because of the increased angle the arrow leaves the bow when the sight is set at 40 yds.


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## Huntinsker

N7709K said:


> The arc is in a 3 axis plane- as the bow is canted the arrow no longer sits true level on the rest. When you torque the bow to get Said can't the string doesn't track directly inline with center of the target. There is also spin drift to a degree, especially at longer ranges...
> 
> 
> Disprove it all you want on paper- *fact of the matter is in practicality as you change second axis poi changes left/right*. I don't really care what a diagram looks like to illustrate it, i know it happens and I work around the real world output.


cbrunson said this, "Just opposite. If you cant to the right, you miss to the right. *How much you miss by is determined by the distance from the pivot point on the riser (your hand), to the rest*."

In these diagrams, arrow 1 is in the middle of the bow and on the grip. The grip is acting as the rest to create the perfect storm so that if cbrunson is correct, you won't miss if you cant the bow.

You just said exactly what I've said all along and that's what my diagram shows. The more you cant the bow, the more the POI changes. So the farther the arrow is from where you're sight pin is, the farther the arrow will impact away from where you're aiming when the bow is canted. It's because the sight pin and the arrow are no longer within the same vertical plane.

Notice this time that all three objects, arrow 1, 2 and the pin, are within the same vertical plane the "YZ" plane. Also notice that they are all 3 projecting toward the target perpendicularly to the string and target. The bow string is also in the same "YZ" vertical plane.








Now notice how when the bow string is no longer within the "YZ" vertical plane, the second arrow and the sight pin are also no longer in that plane and their vertical planes are now further right than arrow 1's vertical plane. Arrow 1 hits in the same spot, but arrow 2 is further right. So because the sight is further right, arrow 2 hits closer to where the sight is pointed. 








So pretend we keep the bow canted and move the sight back to the "YZ" vertical plane (Pretend because I didn't want to make another diagram). Now both arrows are left of the "YZ" plane so they will impact left of our target which is some distance down range but still within the "YZ" vertical plane.

Now here's a question I should have asked but only thought of it now. When your describing canting the bow to the right and hitting right, do you mean that you would not then move the pin back to the bullseye? If you don't move it back to the bullseye, then I would agree with you. *However*, that only works if *the arrow is some distance above the grip and you're not moving the pin back to the bullseye*.


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## cbrunson

I think you would do better going and shooting it rather than trying to draw it. The point you are missing is that the arrow leaves the bow at an upward angle.

The reference of hand position to rest height is simply that the bubble travels more with induced torque or movement in the shot process, not POI from canting the bow. Bubbling was the offshoot, off topic, direction this has gone.


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## Mestang99

2 days worth of bickering that could be solved with 5 minutes of shooting and shooting is WAAAAAAAYYYY more fun...


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## Huntinsker

cbrunson said:


> I think you would do better going and shooting it rather than trying to draw it. The point you are missing is that the arrow leaves the bow at an upward angle.
> 
> The reference of hand position to rest height is simply that the bubble travels more with induced torque or movement in the shot process, not POI from canting the bow. Bubbling was the offshoot, off topic, direction this has gone.


The only upward angle that the arrow can travel on is in relation to the horizontal ground. You can't make an arrow move "northeast" because you tip the bow. You could lay a gun on its side and shoot it and the bullet will still travel straight out of the barrel and fall straight down to the ground, assuming you forgive the slight deviation due to the centrifugal forces that its spin rate causes. It doesn't move right just because the scope is now right of the barrel.


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## cbrunson

Mestang99 said:


> 2 days worth of bickering that could be solved with 5 minutes of shooting and shooting is WAAAAAAAYYYY more fun...


HAHA. yep :grin:


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## cbrunson

Huntinsker said:


> The only upward angle that the arrow can travel on is in relation to the horizontal ground. You can't make an arrow move "northeast" because you tip the bow. You could lay a gun on its side and shoot it and the bullet will still travel straight out of the barrel and fall straight down to the ground, assuming you forgive the slight deviation due to the centrifugal forces that its spin rate causes. It doesn't move right just because the scope is now right of the barrel.


But the scope compensates for gravity right? So when you sight in zeroed at 100 yds, then lay the rifle on its right side and aim with the scope, the bullet will go right.


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## Huntinsker

cbrunson said:


> But the scope compensates for gravity right? So when you sight in zeroed at 100 yds, then lay the rifle on its right side and aim with the scope, the bullet will go right.


So I think I agree with that. In my earlier posts, I had the arrows perpendicular to the string and the string and target parallel to each other. I do maintain that if the string is vertical and if the arrow is perpendicular to it, when you cant the bow, you will miss left/right. But since we do elevate the bow to compensate for gravity, the string is no longer parallel to the target or perpendicular to the ground but rather angled backward. So when we can't the bow, the backward angle of the string makes the bow face more right or left depending on which way the bow is canted.


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## N7709K

the farther you are from the axis of rotation the farther the miss, the sight mark doesn't have any sway- its only a visual indicator of where the arrow will hit. as the arrow gets farther from the axis of rotation the misses become greater. the sight doesn't matter, its all about rest position; same principle as torque tuning. so yes we are saying that misses become large the more you cant, but for two very different reasons....


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## fanio

actually, it is all about position of the dot. The arrow goes straight up and straight down - gravity only works in one direction and it is a basic law of physics that unless there is a force acting on a moving object it will keep moving in the *exact same* direction.

Canting into the wind moves your dot to the opposite side, so if you aim in the middle after canting the _arrow _is actually pointing slightly to the opposite side, and the wind then pushes it back to the middle. This is why it works (and is in practice seen to be working). Not because the sight position somehow influences the force(s) on the arrow.


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## Huntinsker

fanio said:


> actually, it is all about position of the dot. The arrow goes straight up and straight down - gravity only works in one direction and it is a basic law of physics that unless there is a force acting on a moving object it will keep moving in the *exact same* direction.
> 
> Canting into the wind moves your dot to the opposite side, so if you aim in the middle after canting the _arrow _is actually pointing slightly to the opposite side, and the wind then pushes it back to the middle. This is why it works (and is in practice seen to be working). Not because the sight position somehow influences the force(s) on the arrow.


Correct. The sight has nothing to do with it. I wasn't taking into account that when we create an arc on the arrow, we do it by starting the arrow out above horizontal. That means that you tip the top cam of the bow backward to create the upward angle. If you then cant the bow to the right or left, the backwards tip of the bow causes the bow to actually face a little right or left. That's how the arrow moves toward the pin when the bow is canted. It was like a math problem that you do over and over and can't find your mistake and then all of a sudden you get that "duh" moment and it all make sense again.


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## CarlV

Looking at the title of this thread I'm thinking the OP might be asking something a little different. D loop height and it's effect on hold. Your D loop height certainly does affect your pulling point, and how steady you might see your sights.


> Would be nice to read how someone else chooses it while setting up a bow, and whatever experimentation process they go though. It seems to me that altering the pulling point on the string slightly is another way to fine tune the angle that the bow sits in the hand, the way we did with tiller tuning prior to parallel limb technology.


My process. I initially set up such that my arrow is dead level through the center of the burger hole. Note the steadiness. Then I move the D loop higher by turning the limb bolts singularly, or in combination, a little at a time. I'll normally end up somewhere where my float is noticeably more steady. It's really pretty noticeable as I'm getting close. Then I'll measure the D loop height, return the limbs to zero tiller, and move my D loop to the premeasured height. THis has really improved my float on target and henseforth my game, both indoors and out.

I'm not taking credit for this as I just followed Tom Dorrington's advice in his book Proactive Archery.

Yes this works on parallel limb bows also.


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