# STOP trying to tune your bows!



## Viper1 (Aug 21, 2003)

Guys -

Yeah, never thought I have to say this.

Pretty much on all archery forums and in local discussions, "tuning" comes up in one form or another. Paper vs. bare shaft, bare shaft separation vs nock kick-out, group tuning, even things like walk back tuning.

Stop it ... unless you can hold close to a 6" group at 20 yards. And that doesn't mean one 6" group, that means an average. That's a somewhat arbitrary number to confirm some level of consistency and without that tuning will be a fool's errand at best. Once that happens, feel free to knock your socks off.

So what should you do?
Match your arrows spine wise from a reputable source, and forget the bull-dodo about stupid heavy heads or extra long shafts. Go with a basic set up and put your efforts in to reaching that 6" standard. Work on your form, technique, whatever, and THEN think about basic tuning. Two reasons: 1. at the 6" group level, you're shooting consistently enough to get reliable data from tuning exercises and 2. as your form (hopefully) improves, your "required" tune will change as well. Your draw length might get longer (or shorter), your bow grip or release might improve, whatever.

I not against tuning it the least, but wait until you can actually gain something from doing it.

Viper1 out.


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## madkasel (Nov 12, 2009)

Makes sense, if new, to develop a consistent form and grouping first. Start macro before going micro.


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## Brian N (Aug 14, 2014)

I'll add a personal observation as well: Tuning is not a one time "Set it and forget it" Over the last couple of years, I've tweaked my tune, mostly which accompany improvements in my precision. Changes involved tweaks of the plunger and nocking point, and maybe a 1/4 turn of the limb bolts. I don't expect that my tuning will ever be completely "done".


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## NockWorst (3 mo ago)

Is there such a thing as tuning and fine-tuning?


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## Viper1 (Aug 21, 2003)

Nock - 

Yeah, there is, but it falls under the "you can only tune as well as you can shoot" heading. And some of it has to do with the type of shooting you're into. 

Viper1 out.


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## Hikari (May 15, 2021)

No, you should never learn how to align your limbs, set your brace height, adjust your center shot, or make sure your arrow spine works. Certainly, trying to learn more about your sport or craft by gaining the experience and experimenting with tuning is a really bad idea. Look at what happened to John Demmer! 

The new archers I see turning up with gear from a "reputable source" trying to shoot 500 spine arrows that were sold to them out the 25# bow they bought should just stand there pugging away. And if those limbs from the "reputable source" are out of alignment or twisted, they should just keep flinging arrows until they can get those arbitrary 6" groups.

Like any skill, Archery skills and techniques should never be attempted until you reach certain clear and defined milestones. Only when you hit them, should you then figure out what you need to learn to get to the next one. Archery is a dreary hobby that requires a prescribed path. Never experiment or follow your own curiosity--initiative is bad. 

Yes, you can only tune as good as you shoot, so why bother learning the skill? I don't even know why archery shops bother tuning a bow of a beginner. It is not like it will matter...


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## m60gunner (Mar 15, 2003)

I wholeheartedly agree with the OP. There is a lot of confusion especially for newbie’s in basic arrow selection. Their “help” in selection is the internet or the local archery store that caters to wheel bow shooters. Can’t say how many times I have seen their frustration trying to group using 30# bows and 400 spine arrows. sure you can do it after you learn to compensate but a few of those people never come back


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## camperjim (Oct 22, 2016)

This would make sense except for one ugly, ugly factor. Easton, especially, but other arrow manufacturers as well, recommend arrows that are way too stiff. The archery shops follow these out of whack recommendations and new archers are likely to start out with arrows that just will not shoot well.


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## greenpencil (5 mo ago)

Good advice, thanks for posting it.


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## Draven Olary (Jun 12, 2016)

Hikari said:


> No, you should never learn how to align your limbs, set your brace height, adjust your center shot, or make sure your arrow spine works. Certainly, trying to learn more about your sport or craft by gaining the experience and experimenting with tuning is a really bad idea. Look at what happened to John Demmer!
> 
> The new archers I see turning up with gear from a "reputable source" trying to shoot 500 spine arrows that were sold to them out the 25# bow they bought should just stand there pugging away. And if those limbs from the "reputable source" are out of alignment or twisted, they should just keep flinging arrows until they can get those arbitrary 6" groups.
> 
> ...


You are thinking all archers are starting with an ILF. The “silent crowd” who’s not reading or posting often or never on AT buys a takedown a one piece or a vintage bow and starts shooting it first. Some of them are trying to get some help and end on AT asking questions. Half of the answers are “did you check your bareshaft”? Viper’s post is addressing this issue. And he is right. There is the other side of coin that in our small world we forget about it.


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## Hikari (May 15, 2021)

m60gunner said:


> I wholeheartedly agree with the OP. There is a lot of confusion especially for newbie’s in basic arrow selection. Their “help” in selection is the internet or the local archery store that caters to wheel bow shooters. Can’t say how many times I have seen their frustration trying to group using 30# bows and 400 spine arrows. sure you can do it after you learn to compensate but a few of those people never come back


Wouldn't help if they knew the basics of what a tuned setup is so they don't have to struggle with shooting really stiff arrows? Shooting a few bareshafts is not that compacted. They then may enjoy the sport more.


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## candy man (May 9, 2011)

Excellent point. A ballpark spined arrow is all that a new archer needs. They start a shooting session strong and after several arrows they are not drawing to that same spot so how could they possibly worry about their tune. As they get some type of consistent form and anchor they may find a bit better ballpark spine to shoot but until they can do things the same way every time, it would be an exercise in futility.


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## Hikari (May 15, 2021)

Draven Olary said:


> You are thinking all archers are starting with an ILF. The “silent crowd” who’s not reading or posting often or never on AT buys a takedown a one piece or a vintage bow and starts shooting it first. Some of them are trying to get some help and end on AT asking questions. Half of the answers are “did you check your bareshaft”? Viper’s post is addressing this issue. And he is right. There is the other side of coin that in our small world we forget about it.


I don't think the "silent crowd" are the ones doing all the tuning. And if someone comes for help, then should you not give some help? Part of that might be whether your system is actually close to working. Bareshafts are not difficult to explain--rip the vanes off one of your arrows and shoot it. You then have an opportunity to broaden the conversation to talk about things like form. I do this at my range for people asking for help--the arrow spine thing is easy, I tell them they are too stiff (because the "reputable source" mostly gives out 500 spine arrows for 25# bows), let them shoot one of my bareshafts, and then turn to working on form and not worry about arrows until they lose more of the arrows they have. 

I am not sure Viper is addressing this crowd at all. He says unless you are shooting a 6" group consistently, and that is putting all you arrows in the 7 ring or higher (no line cutters either), you should not worry about tuning. If you are shooting consistently 7s or higher, I hope you know the basics of tuning as you are probably shooting 250s (and those archers do know, BTW). I can't see a recreational archer with a takedown recurve shooting 6" groups consistently, so I don't think we are talking about them (and that is an impossibly high criteria for them to meet). (And if trad shooters are getting 250s, they are at the top of the pack.) 

Now my wife and I are not 250 (barebow) shooters, but knowing the basics of tuning has been very valuable. We have spotted and fixed issues with nocking point hight as well as spine. And those changes have had actual results on our shooting. And to give some context to shooting barebow indoors with 250s, Spanky Brooks and Matt Yacca are shooting at that level. 

Learning a skill is not about you learn one thing first, get that down pat, then move to the next. You don't learn to write by getting diction down first, move to grammar, and then finish up with punctuation. You learn them concurrently. They reinforce either other. The same with archery. You learn aspects of the physical, technical, and mental together. 

Also, the learner is motivated by different things. If your argument is that archers leave because they are frustrated, then learning with a pedantic structure can be just as frustrating. Giving different exercises and skills are ways to make learning interesting and keeping the learner engaged. If the learner is engaged by the technical aspects, why would you ignore that interest? (Besides, if the only reason someone gets into archery is to tune their bow, there is nothing wrong with that if that is what blows their hair back--who are we to criticize someone's motivation?)

I am certainly not against stressing form over technical aspects like tuning. Form will always give greater gains. But it is not a simple either/or proposition. Tuning gives valuable insight into archery and can help you analyze the difference between form and tuning errors.


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## HoytHunterRX3 (May 18, 2019)

we owe it to these animals for clean, ethical kills. I will continue to tune my bows and practice at 30 yards. You do you. But tuning your bow is absolutely a must.


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## jtrops (Nov 20, 2018)

Hikari, it's not really that complicated. Yes, the bow needs to have a basic setup. This isn't tuning. It is simply setting everything in the average place (brace/nock/spine) based on common knowledge, or manufacturer recommendations. 

If you can hit consistently enough to put a solid group together every end, then you will be able to see the effects of the adjustments you are making. If you can't get your arrows together there are too many variables in the shooter to warrant any tuning of your equipment. 

Maybe 6" groups aren't the gold standard. But the meaning is clear.


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## Toxalot (Nov 17, 2019)

Newbies go into it without a clue of what spine really is. Read some of the posts on the various forums; some guys have no idea what spine represents or how to effect good dynamic spine. Instead they rely on interactive charts which are sometimes a comedy of errors in themselves...it's the let Seri or Alexa take care of everything syndrome. 

Like anything else, you need to walk before you run, and you really need to have a basic knowledge of what spine really is, and how it reacts to various components that affect it. Relying on charts, that you don't understand anyway, is a quick route to disaster. That's why you see such goofy things as having 400 spine carbon arrows on a 30 pound bow. Even to a new archer, that should be a red flag, if they have a modicum of knowledge of spine and all its vagaries. Take a break from online charts and internet experts, and go read a book from 1965 on arrow spine, it's theory and application.


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## jtrops (Nov 20, 2018)

Toxalot said:


> Take a break from online charts and internet experts, and go read a book from 1965 on arrow spine, it's theory and application.


Or, just get Vipers book (Shooting the Stick Bow), and the recommended aluminum arrows for your bow's weight. That'll get you putting arrows down range with the point in front.


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## marcelxl (Dec 5, 2010)

So true. 

I cringe with some of the advice on arrows and tuning a I read on here.

Also, I will ALWAYS shoot the longest I can, granted I have a 30" draw but still, ain't nobody on here convince me otherwise and I will sacrifice a tune for a "good enough" to get that. Simplified, results driven conclusions got me there. 
The only caveat to that would be broadhead use. 
But I will and have shot with and held it with the very best in the world doing it that way.

I'd love to see some of the serial advice givers out there doing it, the internet guru is the worst to get advice from.


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## Brad Lehmann (Sep 4, 2010)

Hikari said:


> No, you should never learn how to align your limbs, set your brace height, adjust your center shot, or make sure your arrow spine works. Certainly, trying to learn more about your sport or craft by gaining the experience and experimenting with tuning is a really bad idea. Look at what happened to John Demmer!
> 
> The new archers I see turning up with gear from a "reputable source" trying to shoot 500 spine arrows that were sold to them out the 25# bow they bought should just stand there pugging away. And if those limbs from the "reputable source" are out of alignment or twisted, they should just keep flinging arrows until they can get those arbitrary 6" groups.
> 
> ...


What you are bringing up is basic archery knowledge. I think what Viper is saying is to stop messing with stuff all the time. My son in law drives me crazy with all his tweaking equipment when it is clearly him causing the difference.


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## Dartwick (Oct 28, 2019)

Hikaris first post is one of the dumbest posts I have ever seen here.


If you cant shoot a ~ six inch group then tuning beyond what "the book" says is a waste of time. It will just result in a lot of adjustments based on your variance and you never be sure about either your own consistency nor your tune. Sure if all your arrows are going 2 feet wide to one side you have a problem, but thats not what were talking about here.


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## LampaStamp (Sep 6, 2020)

Oops just realized this is the trad board


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## Jim Casto Jr (Aug 20, 2002)

HoytHunterRX3 said:


> View attachment 7745447
> 
> 
> we owe it to these animals for clean, ethical kills. I will continue to tune my bows and practice at 30 yards. You do you. But tuning your bow is absolutely a must.


You missed the mark completely.

This is not exclusively a hunting forum; the replies are directed at inexperienced archers and certainly has nothing to do with compound devices.


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## HoytHunterRX3 (May 18, 2019)

Jim Casto Jr said:


> You missed the mark completely.
> 
> This is not exclusively a hunting forum; the replies are directed at inexperienced archers and certainly has nothing to do with compound devices.


ahhh my bad.


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## 1canvas (Mar 29, 2009)

I have found it very useful 6 months after I started out doing a bit of tuning. I first matched my arrows better (never cutting) by shooting bare shaft into foam up close to make sure on nock height, then head weight. Whether that is considered tuning I don’t know. Once I got into ILF bows then arrow rest adjustments for side to side adjustments. 
Even though form may be off I believe after 6 months some adjustments need to be made to start the process of closing up the group and that becomes very rewarding and helps keep interest high. I know from shooting recurves years ago that you can only tune to your abilities, but I believe some tuning early on is needed. Now after three years in I started real tuning and cutting arrows and that has worked great.


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## Bowmania (Jan 3, 2003)

A six in group at 20 yards??????????? The 4 ring on a blue face is about 6 inches. That means if you shot the 60 arrow round and put 30 arrows in the four ring and 30 in the 5 ring, you'd be looking at a score of 270. We're kind of talking beginners here, so I mean no sights and touching the nock.

I don't disagree with Viper's point. The difficult of tuning and form for a beginner is really dilemma. A missed shot could be tune, aiming, or form. It's a wonder how we all didn't give up. Really calls for a coach to shorten the learning curve.

Bowmania


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## Viper1 (Aug 21, 2003)

Todd - 

That's exactly what I mean, for the simple reason an average trad shooter/bow hunter years ago, with a few years under his belt, could do that - yeah we've come a long way. Even a semi-serious was in the B or A classes, and that's hovering around the 250 mark - more or less. At least in the clubs I belonged to. And most guys who couldn't break a 250 knew enough to not give advise.

Camperjim - 

Easton can and usually does go one or two spines stiffer than required, and while it does bother me, for a new shooter, unless the arrow comes out sideways (and they usually won't), it just isn't going to matter. Oddly enough the OLD Easton charts (pre-1983) were spot on, and that info is still available.

Now, are you saying that you or I couldn't stack nominally configured 1916s from a 30# bow at 20 yards? Heck I know I've done it, but OK they were 1914s from 26# limbs.

Hoythunter - 

I guess not being able to get with the times is still better than not being able to read... 

Viper1 out.


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## OhioChris (Feb 5, 2018)

Viper1 said:


> Guys -
> 
> Yeah, never thought I have to say this.
> 
> ...


I for one have benefited greatly from your book and years of online advice. Just wanted you to know that some of us are hard at work, improving our archery skills! 

Thanks++ @Viper1


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## Hank D Thoreau (Dec 9, 2008)

I am probably an outlier when it comes to tuning. I think it is best to break tuning into three phases: basic setup, rough tune and fine tune.

Most of what folks here are referring to is fine tuning.

I only worry about fine tuning when I am prepping for competition. The same often applies to rough tuning. I often shoot untuned lightweight bows while working on my form.

I also don't shortcut the learning process. If a tournament comes up and I am still working on a change, I shoot it anyway with the bow I have and setup as is.

I was once admonished by my coach for showing up with an untuned bow. He didn't get that I was not ready to start tuning. I shot the tournament for fun and experience, but I stayed focused on the form changes I was making.

Also, shooting a bow is such a "feel" thing. I only do a standard setup for the first four to six weeks to get used to the bow.

Only after I am comfortable with the bow do I start a formal tuning process.

You can shoot an untuned bow and still put arrows on the center line. You just have to execute well. I do it all the time with my lightweight form setups.

I am not about to buy arrows for my lightweight bow configurations. I would rather shoot them until I can put the arrows down the middle.

When I finally get around to tuning, I use the very formal Tuning for Tens process which works well for me.

Eventually, I will need to revisit the tune on my stringwalking bow. I am pretty sure I can fine tune it a bit, but for now, I would rather spend my time shooting.


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## camperjim (Oct 22, 2016)

Viper1 said:


> Todd -
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I do agree, it is very possible to get solid results with arrows that are a couple of spines too stiff. Unfortunately I have also seen quite a few trad archers shooting arrows that are grossly over stiff. They are typically shooting off the shelf and getting horrible arrow flight and they need to do some tuning. Anyway, I do agree that pretty close is close enough.

As a corollary to your recommendation to avoid excessive tuning and tinkering, I would add that expensive arrows are not necessary. The average trad arrow I find on the 3d ranges cost in the range of $15 or more. I don't know any trad shooters who could come close to outshooting a $3 Jazz arrow. Aluminum gets banged up on 3d ranges so I switched to carbon years ago. My dirt cheap Beman flash arrows from many years ago do just fine. I stopped shooting them because they were made by an extrusion process and were prone to undetected damage and just too dangerous to shoot. Instead I am shooting $4 promotional "Aviator" arrows that Lancaster sold several years ago. There is no way I will ever be good enough to outshoot those arrows. Those of us trying to hit 6" groups don't need to worry about buying expensive arrows.


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## Viper1 (Aug 21, 2003)

Jim - 

That's very true. Like I've been saying upstairs, the only people using X10s are those who don't know any better and those who don't pay for them 

Viper1 out.


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## Stash (Jun 1, 2002)

camperjim said:


> Anyway, I do agree that pretty close is close enough.


Completely agree.

Just an example, and not “proof” of anything regarding tuning, but my own experience demonstrates that. I shoot trad these days, just for fun. I don’t compete or hunt. My skill level isn’t what it used to be, but I generally stay inside an 8” group at 20 yards. No stringwalking or gap or point of aim - I shoot as close to “instinctive” as I’d want to describe it as.

I have 3 identical bows at 3 different weights, 24, 34 and 38#, and 3 sets of 28” arrows, 900 and 750 spine with 120 grain points, and 600 with 250 grain points. I draw about 27”, and usually use the corresponding arrows (24# - 900s, 34# - 750s and 38# - 600s).

Now, bare shaft - wise, the 900s are too stiff for the 24# but fly nicely out of the 34#. The 750s are too stiff for the 34# but fly nicely out of the 38#. The 600s with the heavy points also work well for the 38#. Elevated rest, no plunger.

I generally shoot the 34# the most (I’m old and weak 😥) with the 750s because I have lots of them but only have 6 900s, and I like to fire off a dozen or so while the Oly guys are shooting their 3. But sometimes just for fun I take everything to the club, and shoot every arrow out of every bow.

The interesting thing is, it doesn’t seem to matter which arrows I use out of which bow, weak, stiff or just right, I pretty much group the same. All I have to adjust is for the height due to different arrow weights.

So, yeah, I’m agreeing with Viper on the concept - tuning is way over-rated for the vast majority of us.


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## Jim Casto Jr (Aug 20, 2002)




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## marcelxl (Dec 5, 2010)

Viper1 said:


> Jim -
> 
> That's very true. Like I've been saying upstairs, the only people using X10s are those who don't know any better and those who don't pay for them
> 
> Viper1 out.


Like those guys who argue they can tell the difference between .001s and .006s.


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## GCook (Aug 22, 2016)

I agree with Viper because I've dealt with the frustration of trying to tune before I was consistent enough and getting conflicting results and frustrated. 
Get a shaft that's close. Stu Miller and 3Rivers have great calculators to get you close. Close is enough to get you consistent. 
Sent from my Nokia XR20 using Tapatalk


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## Remote (Dec 10, 2020)

I agree and many folk have said more or less the same on TradTalk (including myself). It's futile and the road to madness to tune until you can shoot consistently. Novice archers will read around and guess the reason they're not hitting consistently is because they're out of tune. Not the case. Too late, they're off down the rabbit warren of bareshaft tuning and come out the other end depressed and/or insane about trad.

Letting a novice archer begin tuning and encouraging them to do so may actually be enough to end their career in traditional archery. It can be that confusing and tough on them, following tuning advice and spine is reading all wrong, blowing money on shafts and then realising they can't un-cut an arrow.

Rather than talking tuning, it's best to support them by getting their DL more or less sorted out (good frame, back tension and alignment), then find what they're really pulling on the bow, and get them some basic 'good enough' arrows fletched and in the ballpark for their setup. Then and only then can they start working on their shooting in confidence, enough to get somewhere to even begin bloody tuning.


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## Remote (Dec 10, 2020)

Viper1 said:


> That's exactly what I mean, for the simple reason an average trad shooter/bow hunter years ago, with a few years under his belt, could do that - yeah we've come a long way. Even a semi-serious was in the B or A classes, and that's hovering around the 250 mark - more or less. At least in the clubs I belonged to. And most guys who couldn't break a 250 knew enough to not give advise.


Agree. If you can't consistently get 6" groups at 18-20m you are not really qualified to give advice and nor should you be hunting IMO. It's OK to have good standards and the one cited is not even that high.

I think it's really great and exciting to see trad growing so fast in many places, but that should not lower the bar as to expecting quality from ourselves and putting in some work to get it.


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## 1canvas (Mar 29, 2009)

Remote said:


> I agree and many folk have said more or less the same on TradTalk (including myself). It's futile and the road to madness to tune until you can shoot consistently. Novice archers will read around and guess the reason they're not hitting consistently is because they're out of tune. Not the case. Too late, they're off down the rabbit warren of bareshaft tuning and come out the other end depressed and/or insane about trad.
> 
> Letting a novice archer begin tuning and encouraging them to do so may actually be enough to end their career in traditional archery. It can be that confusing and tough on them, following tuning advice and spine is reading all wrong, blowing money on shafts and then realising they can't un-cut an arrow.
> 
> Rather than talking tuning, it's best to support them by getting their DL more or less sorted out (good frame, back tension and alignment), then find what they're really pulling on the bow, and get them some basic 'good enough' arrows fletched and in the ballpark for their setup. Then and only then can they start working on their shooting in confidence, enough to get somewhere to even begin bloody tuning.


Then there is the other side of the coin where their gear is so mismatched and out of wack and their arrows are flying all over the place, pretty discouraging. I think things need to be set up close starting out, maybe not “tuned” but set up properly.


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## Viper1 (Aug 21, 2003)

1 - 

How "mismatched" could it possibly be? Let's take the oft cited 30# bow with 500 spine arrows. Sure, you may not like the way the arrows fly down range, or necessarily where they go, but they will usually all go to the same place. (It's the "if they don't come out sideways" rule.)

Again, I'm a big believer in tuning a rig, but only when it's appropriate. 

Viper1 out.


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## Brian N (Aug 14, 2014)

I'll open the can of worms: How many equipment "upgrades" do new archers go through expecting miraculous improvements, only to discover marginal or none or worse performance changes? Related to tuning in that when you're ready to take advantage of tuning and fine tuning, or equipment upgrades, there can be increased precision and accuracy. This probably relates to many sports, archery among them.


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## 1canvas (Mar 29, 2009)

Brian N said:


> I'll open the can of worms: How many equipment "upgrades" do new archers go through expecting miraculous improvements, only to discover marginal or none or worse performance changes? Related to tuning in that when you're ready to take advantage of tuning and fine tuning, or equipment upgrades, there can be increased precision and accuracy. This probably relates to many sports, archery among them.


From what I have read in threads I really don’t think many, especially in traditional archery, expect miraculous changes in gear and tuning, I believe most after researching the subject understand it’s stepping stone and not leaps.


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## Brian N (Aug 14, 2014)

1canvas - Agree, changes in equipment are more akin to stepping stones. Tuning is similar, in that the better you shoot, the better you can tune, then repeat the same at the next stepping stone. Perhaps "Trad" shooters are less inclined to become equipment obsessed, but this was not the case especially with the young Oly archers I observed when my son frequently competed.


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## Viper1 (Aug 21, 2003)

1- 

I think they do, Sure, people want prettier stuff, but spending 2K on a super duper custom bow has to make you a better shot than the silly little Chinese bow you've been playing with, right? Companies, and bowyers, count on that.

When I teach some one to shoot, #1 is safety, stopping anything that can cause harm to themselves or others (that includes a bow that's too heavy). #2 I look for their biggest form issue, and frankly ignore more minor flubs. And a distant third is equipment and from "tuning". 

Viper1 out.


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## 1canvas (Mar 29, 2009)

Brian N said:


> 1canvas - Agree, changes in equipment are more akin to stepping stones. Tuning is similar, in that the better you shoot, the better you can tune, then repeat the same at the next stepping stone. Perhaps "Trad" shooters are less inclined to become equipment obsessed, but this was not the case especially with the young Oly archers I observed when my son frequently competed.


Since I started traditional three years ago the beginning stages are still fresh in my mind. I got a lot of helpful info from here and elsewhere that kept my expectations in check. When I would make changes and be really happy about them Viper would warn me that I was in the honeymoon stage, how true.
That said, I was able to keep both expectations and costs down, I started out with the idea of simplicity and buying a bow that wouldn’t hinder my abilities and fit me and my needs, most of all enjoyable to shoot.
Being into archery all of my life, especially compounds, I was smart enough not to search for that elusive “perfect bow“ or gear that many are on a constant search for. For me good enough is good enough for my bows, gear, and my groups, that has kept my journey into traditional archery enjoyable and just plain fun, something that I find very refreshing at this stage of my life with over 50+ years in archery.


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## DaveHawk (Jul 16, 2009)

Viper1 said:


> Guys -
> 
> Yeah, never thought I have to say this.
> 
> ...


I agree 100% I've always said that my bow shoots better than I can shoot it.


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## woof156 (Apr 3, 2018)

Along with many other posting here I agree with Viper. As a BB shooter and one who had enjoyed the experience of trying to tune arrows and bow etc I have also had the frustration of inconsistent grouping to the point that I realize that any kind of tuning has to be statistical at best. I use the My Target ap for looking at arrow grouping over 70-80 arrows but still a variation or change in release throws most of that out the window in the next session. One thing that I have found useful for both spine and plunger tuning is shooting at a perpendicular rope at 20 yds and seeing which side most of the arrow group on and how close to the rope are they. And BTW plunger settings do change arrow spine testing effects. The rope must be perpendicular and and it is easy to aim the arrow because the shaft disappears when properly aligned with the rope.. Still and all it has and continues to be a fun journey and until they allow BB in the Olympics it is just for fun


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## 3finger (Mar 29, 2018)

Skimming through all the replies prompted me to include having all that beginning stuff behind me. In my own experience once set-up and tuned leave the thing alone.


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## Dartwick (Oct 28, 2019)

On a side note.

Ive found that if I try and shoot arrows that are too weak I start unintentionally adjusting my form and shortening my draw to compensate.


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## GroundhogGristle (Oct 31, 2020)

Getting it in the ballpark at first is important but if you cant shoot correctly, I believe it can be moot.


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## Earthen_vessel (4 mo ago)

I’m a fairly new shooter. I’m retired at 73 and I have a lot of time to spend in my back yard. I’ve probably shot well over 5,000 arrows this year and I’m self taught. I don’t recommend that approach. When you are doing everything wrong it hard to gain any progress. However, it was important to me to get at least in the ball park with arrow selection so I would have one less variable. I’m getting better and am pleased with my progress. Heck I haven’t lost any arrows for two weeks. 🙃


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## Viper1 (Aug 21, 2003)

E-v - 

Most of the people I shoot with these days are in your age group. Do yourself a favor, get some instruction. It's doesn't have to be anything formal, just shooting with more experienced guys can make a difference.
At any age, the biggest problem with being self taught is not being able to see what you are doing, and too many times, what we think we're doing isn't what's actually happening. 

If you're happy with your progress, carry on, but if you want to shorten the curve, maybe your backyard isn't the best place to do it. At least not all the time.

BTW - above I alluded to an average shooter years ago being capable of a 6" (+/-) group at 20 yards. That met with some resistance, or rather disbelief. The big difference was, the guys I shot with were part of a fairly large club for the time and not backyard shooters. 

Viper1 out.


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## Remote (Dec 10, 2020)

Viper1 said:


> BTW - above I alluded to an average shooter years ago being capable of a 6" (+/-) group at 20 yards. That met with some resistance, or rather disbelief. The big difference was, the guys I shot with were part of a fairly large club for the time and not backyard shooters.


I personally think any resistance it incurred was misplaced. It is a useful guide, very reasonable and achievable goal for the aspiring trad shooter. Hunters especially should be able to group at that before putting blades on the end of their arrows.

This was one of my groups at 20m last night. It clearly shows I have some work to do with this particular bow before I hunt with it. There should be no fliers in 6 rounds of 6, from the first arrow to the last.


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## MGF (Oct 27, 2012)

I don't know...if you aren't shooting broadheads and/or you can't shoot very well anyway there's probably no real reason to work real hard at tuning...unless you just want to.

Some years back in response to one of these threads where a new archer was having trouble and everybody told him to tune...I went outside and shot some tiny little groups at 10 or 15 yards with a 15# bow and 400 spine arrows and posted pics. If your shooting fletched arrows with anything but a broadhead at fairly close range you can shoot about any arrow. 

If you're going to shoot broadheads you'd better do some basic tuning. If nothing else just shoot some broadheads to see how things go. You need not be restrained by someone else's opinion regarding the significance of a 6" group at 20 yards. You can kill deer at 10 yards. 

I guess I sort of tune all the time. I only have 4 "practice" arrows for he bow that I've been shooting and one of them is a bare shaft...well it has the quill on it. Most of my shooting is 20 and in and virtually all of it is inside 30. I'm not sure I need to fletch any arrow unless I'm going to mount a broadhead and take it hunting.


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## 3finger (Mar 29, 2018)

Remote said:


> I personally think any resistance it incurred was misplaced. It is a useful guide, very reasonable and achievable goal for the aspiring trad shooter. Hunters especially should be able to group at that before putting blades on the end of their arrows.
> 
> This was one of my groups at 20m last night. It clearly shows I have some work to do with this particular bow before I hunt with it. There should be no fliers in 6 rounds of 6, from the first arrow to the last.
> 
> View attachment 7747566


How did the fletching on the low right arrow get so catty-wompus?


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## Remote (Dec 10, 2020)

3finger said:


> How did the fletching on the low right arrow get so catty-wompus?


Shot it through some bushes 6months ago, never recovered. Smooth it down before shooting but it always lands looking insane. Doesn't change where it lands though. I'm on the road so no refletching of ol' catty-wompus.


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## bigbuckdn (Sep 19, 2007)

HoytHunterRX3 said:


> View attachment 7745447
> 
> 
> we owe it to these animals for clean, ethical kills. I will continue to tune my bows and practice at 30 yards. You do you. But tuning your bow is absolutely a must.





HoytHunterRX3 said:


> View attachment 7745447
> 
> 
> 
> we owe it to these animals for clean, ethical kills. I will continue to tune my bows and practice at 30 yards. You do you. But tuning your bow is absolutely a must.


So I would agree except for the OP posted this in trad archery whole different concept then compound. So I understand what he means 
I am a huge advocate of walk back tuning but first you have to be able to shoot at a string and hit the dam thing 20 30 40 yards consistently 
Walk back with trad equipment well ?


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## bigbuckdn (Sep 19, 2007)

People read the OP posted this in Traditional Archery 
Whole different game then compound


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## GCook (Aug 22, 2016)

Those six groups of six really don't mean a lot except consistency. Hunting is one arrow. The first shot counts. So let's leave hunting out of the conversation for now. 
If you hold to the 6" at 20 requirement, what percentage of archers would ever need to tune? 

Sent from my Nokia XR20 using Tapatalk


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## Remote (Dec 10, 2020)

GCook said:


> Those six groups of six really don't mean a lot except consistency. Hunting is one arrow. The first shot counts. So let's leave hunting out of the conversation for now.
> If you hold to the 6" at 20 requirement, what percentage of archers would ever need to tune?
> 
> Sent from my Nokia XR20 using Tapatalk


Being able to shoot with consistency, across different conditions, greatly improves the chances of your first shot being of a high quality. While I am going into competition, my shooting is all about that first arrow the rest of the time.

@bigbuckdn, I would say almost everyone in this thread is aware that it's in the trad archery forum. Walk back bare shaft tuning is standard for us trad archers, once we have good repeatable form that is.


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## Eshowers7 (Sep 23, 2018)

I would agree with this statement. Tune can change as you get more consistent with your shot. I started shooting a recurve 3 years ago and my arrow setup is completely different now than when I started and thought I had a perfect setup. Good insight!


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## BigJohnx13 (Sep 8, 2013)

NockWorst said:


> Is there such a thing as tuning and fine-tuning?


The difference between the two is the $100 for tuning and the $ 250 for fine tuning aka super tuning. 

I always thought installing the sight, rest, stabilizers etc is basic equipment setup and then making sure both cams turn and lock the same time is tuning.


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## MGF (Oct 27, 2012)

BigJohnx13 said:


> The difference between the two is the $100 for tuning and the $ 250 for fine tuning aka super tuning.
> 
> I always thought installing the sight, rest, stabilizers etc is basic equipment setup and then making surer both cams turn and lock the same time is tuning.


No cams in this forum.


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## c_m_shooter (Aug 15, 2018)

BigJohnx13 said:


> The difference between the two is the $100 for tuning and the $ 250 for fine tuning aka super tuning.
> 
> I always thought installing the sight, rest, stabilizers etc is basic equipment setup and then making surer both cams turn and lock the same time is tuning.


We don't have cams.


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## 3finger (Mar 29, 2018)

GCook said:


> Those six groups of six really don't mean a lot except consistency. Hunting is one arrow. The first shot counts. So let's leave hunting out of the conversation for now.
> If you hold to the 6" at 20 requirement, what percentage of archers would ever need to tune?
> 
> Sent from my Nokia XR20 using Tapatalk


The idea is to practice until you cannot make a mistake. Probably not going to change the mentality of those reporting "oh well stuck another one" unfortunately.


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## Remote (Dec 10, 2020)

BigJohnx13 said:


> The difference between the two is the $100 for tuning and the $ 250 for fine tuning aka super tuning.
> 
> I always thought installing the sight, rest, stabilizers etc is basic equipment setup and then making surer both cams turn and lock the same time is tuning.


I only have one camera and I don't know how to tune it


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## OCHO505 (May 27, 2010)

I agree


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## GCook (Aug 22, 2016)

Honestly I think it's just as much about being able to tell why you had a flier. Why one doesn't hit with the group. Whether it's twelve, twenty or forty yards. When a flyer occurs and you know you flagged with your bow arm or plucked the release or peeked, collapsed, etc you are probably ready to fine tune your set up. 
Fliers happen to everyone. Saying six ends of six arrows and no fliers is a great way to say consistent. But not realistic for most archers shooting hunting weight bows. And that's where well tuned arrows make a great difference in lethality. Target weight bows are easier to manage but take just as much mental focus. And long range targets require well tuned set ups to maximize accuracy. 
So if I'm shooting in my backyard, which I do, and I'm sitting on my butt at twenty yards shooting 4" groups with my hunting bow I should be good. But honestly with 55lbs I'm not going to be able to shoot 36 arrows that way. 
My 42lb bow I can deal with the repetitive shooting much easier and that's great during competition season but for hunting season I'm about dropping that first arrow in the spot at my maximum range. So I shoot three arrows. Usually varying yardage. Shoot nine a session usually and try to shoot two or three sessions a day. 
A well tuned set up is important. 
How well you can get tuned is really dependent on how capable you are. And I think many of us think we are more capable than we really are. Especially early in our progression. 

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## Viper1 (Aug 21, 2003)

G -

Can't really agree with that.

While not the norm, when I was hunting, my "target" recurves were in excess of 60#, LBs over 70#. A usually shooting session was about 200 arrows over around 2-3 hours. And I wasn't the only one doing that. Yeah, that was over 40 years ago. If you can't shoot 36 arrow from a given weight bow, the odds are the first 36 are going to be suspect as well, especially after you've been sitting for a few hours.

And yes, the more arrow you have down range, the better the odds that the first one will be like all the others. For a new shooter, that means at a close set distance, and not till usually much later on should thing like roving and the one shot at different distances come into play.

The tuning thing in hunting is relative. Sure it's true that a "tuned arrow" will bleed less energy down range, but the difference between "perfect" tuned and close enough usually isn't enough, even with light weight bows, to make a bad shot good or a good shot bad. Even with a modest tune, most fletching will fully stabilize an arrow in under 10 yards.

Lastly, it always struck me odd that the same (OK, some of the same) bow hunters who boast about tuning are the same guys who tell you that "as a hunter" some times you have to take shots from less optimal positions. That perfect tune goes right out the window when your draw length drop an inch (or more) or you torque the bow bow or any of the other things you mentioned. A good tune will indeed help to forgive MINOR shooter errors, w\but we're not talking "minor" here.

There are five stages of "tuning", and each shooter has to determine what's appropriate for what he's doing and his current ability. 

Guys - 

Here's an experiment, if you're interested. 
If you have a chronograph.
Tune your rig as best you can and get a base line set of readings.
Then mess up the tune, remove the plunger, move nocking point, change the brace height, whatever, just stop short of having the arrow come out sideways. (Yes, you have to use the same arrows and can't change the draw weight of the bow.)

See how much of a difference there is in the initial velocity. 

When I did that, the worst case scenario was a couple of fps and usually less.

Viper1 out.


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## Remote (Dec 10, 2020)

GCook said:


> But honestly with 55lbs I'm not going to be able to shoot 36 arrows that way.


Not a pissing contest, but if I can't shoot 36 arrows that well I consider myself overbowed. The above arrows were with a 54lb recurve (OTF). I shot 90 arrows with it recently, the last round too tired to group. I consider myself slightly overbowed with this setup. It should feel like 25lb on the fingers, so I can hold it for a minute or two as needed, dead still, waiting for the right moment when caught in a blind. It should also feel so easy that if I am pack worn on a long hike, shoulders aching, I can still shoot it perfectly.

Many roads to the same path. I know one guy who tires after half a dozen arrows with his heavy setup, but his first arrow is almost always great. Exception to the rule though, and living dangerously. I bet with one fortnight off shooting he would barely hit anything at 15m.


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## bigbuckdn (Sep 19, 2007)

Remote said:


> Being able to shoot with consistency, across different conditions, greatly improves the chances of your first shot being of a high quality. While I am going into competition, my shooting is all about that first arrow the rest of the time.
> 
> @bigbuckdn, I would say almost everyone in this thread is aware that it's in the trad archery forum. Walk back bare shaft tuning is standard for us trad archers, once we have good repeatable form that is.


Agreed I was just addressing a few compound shooters that responded 
I am new to Trad about a year and not consistent enough yet to walk back tune it 
Getting there though


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## Viper1 (Aug 21, 2003)

bbd - 

Sorry, but what exactly do you think walk back tuning is going to buy you?
IOWs, what's the longest shot you think you'll be able to a shot at game with a traditional bow?

In my experience walk back tuning in the 30 yards and under range doesn't do much. 
Getting bare shafts to coincide with fletched field points and broad heads at your maximum "safe" distance pretty much covers it. 

Again, it's the appropriate and ability thing.

Viper1 out.


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## GCook (Aug 22, 2016)

Viper
My issues with that many arrows at heavier weights stems from a progressive issue in my spine. I knew coming in I had a shelf life in the game.
I just didn't expect the recent progression to diminish the strength so rapidly. I like shooting large numbers. And I can with low poundage without much discomfort. Two bows are identical except for poundage and it's nice to have that. As for what shot some hunters take that's up to them. I will pass a shot that I can't reasonably take and maintain decent form. One can if one practices for those things. But those who don't do, don't understand what they don't know. 
Heck I see guys who's arrows don't fly like darts score well and kill game. So in the end it seems all relative. 

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## lameduck (Jul 24, 2019)

I became a meticulous bareshaft tuner since I started archery 3 years ago. Some of the practical things I learned and worked good for me:

* I didn't have to cut my arrow shafts after selecting the appropriate spine...changing to a different point weight and/or adjusting the bow poundage (the beauty of ILF system) is enough to get there.

* How good the fletched arrows fly is more important than how "good" the bareshaft tuning shows.


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## GCook (Aug 22, 2016)

And it's not just about the arrows hitting the same with field points vs broadheads or loss of energy. It's about fine tuning your for and release. 

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## GCook (Aug 22, 2016)

lameduck said:


> * How good the fletched arrows fly is more important than how "good" the bareshaft tuning shows.


Normally if the bare shaft is right the fletched is as well. 

Sent from my Nokia XR20 using Tapatalk


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## arkyarcher (Oct 28, 2011)

bigbuckdn said:


> Agreed I was just addressing a few compound shooters that responded
> I am new to Trad about a year and not consistent enough yet to walk back tune it
> Getting there though


Bigbuckdn walk back tuning just moves your rest left or right which will move your grouping right or left. How's your group at 20 yards? While I practice at 40 and 50 yards with my recurve I would never attempt a a shot passed 30 yards. 40 and 50 yards is where moving your rest really shows up in moving a group but very little in hunting range. 

The very best way to learn to shoot traditional is bow fishing!


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## bigbuckdn (Sep 19, 2007)

arkyarcher said:


> Bigbuckdn walk back tuning just moves your rest left or right which will move your grouping right or left. How's your group at 20 yards? While I practice at 40 and 50 yards with my recurve I would never attempt a a shot passed 30 yards. 40 and 50 yards is where moving your rest really shows up in moving a group but very little in hunting range.
> 
> The very best way to learn to shoot traditional is bow fishing!


My tune is fine I only shoot 25 and in and I shoot off of a feather rest so no movement there 
I was just commenting and As I said I only walk back with compound


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## Viper1 (Aug 21, 2003)

G - 

I'm a, sorry about your injury, my point was there's probably no need for the 55# bow. 

And yes, I agree that at hunting distances and target size, a perfect tune isn't necessary or maybe not even possible. Kinda the point of this thread.

arky - 

Actually walk back tuning is a little more than that. It involves a plunger and is a way of separating center shot from sping tension. You are describing a variation on spine tuning.

Viper1 out.


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## GCook (Aug 22, 2016)

I'm sure you are correct on the weight V. Pride is a tough thing to swallow at times.
I'm in the works of remedying that end for here at home. However for Africa and Alaska I will stick to the stiffer sticks. 

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## Viper1 (Aug 21, 2003)

G - 

The years are gaining on all of us and I know you understand the risk to benefit ratio. I really do wish you the best. 

Viper1 out.


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## OhioChris (Feb 5, 2018)

Viper1 said:


> G -
> 
> The years are gaining on all of us and I know you understand the risk to benefit ratio. I really do wish you the best.
> 
> Viper1 out.


My only regret, it that I should have listen to your suggestion 15+ year’s ago.

Some people have to ) go through the motions ( to get it, and I was one of them….

glad I stayed the course!

Thanks Mr. C!


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## mg1 (6 mo ago)

BLUF: Get a spine test kit and some cheap bronze inserts off Amazon with screw in weight systems. Use a hot glue gun and a heat gun to put in the inserts. Bare shaft tune, DO IT!

Declared Bias: I'm focused on hunting, not target shooting.

As someone new to archery that has spent most of his time bare shaft tuning, both recurve and now compound (as well as paper tuning, plane tuning, and broadhead tuning), I think bare shaft tuning is a vitally important step as you progress--for both platforms. It's really not that hard to see the arrows flying too stiff (nock right) or too weak (nock left). If you shoot enough arrows, consistently for you, you will see consistent flight. Trust your eyes. And if/when you shoot a couple of different spined shafts that present these different flight pictures you will learn a lot. 

I would recommend getting a spine test kit. You can get them from 3 rivers, Lancaster, Sirius Archery, and probably more. This will give you a number of spines to choose from and you can see which flies best with your bow. As your form changes/improves you can try the other spines in the kit and maybe, probably settle on something. 

With adjustable insert weights you can change the dynamic spine of your shafts without having to cut anything. It's not rocket surgery. It's really very simple and if you like shooting and don't mind tinkering too much then it's' really very easy to fine tune things and improve.

I was much happier when I was able to make my arrows fly straight and the ability to make the changes myself was very empowering. 

As an aside for those who have commented on having overspined arrows for very weak bows, maybe it's the (crappy) recommendation so many on this forum make to get an exceptionally weak bow to start with that leads to so many overspined setups. Maybe if adults shot adult recurves and longbows, understanding that some muscle and strength is involved in doing that, there would be fewer folks with overspined arrows. After all, not everyone has 800 spine arrows just lying around in the shop, especially when the market is focused on compounds shooting 340 fps. 

Probably not the fault of the ignorant novice archer, and maybe not the fault of the archery shop trying to make a buck and stay in business, that folks get overspined.


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## Viper1 (Aug 21, 2003)

Chris - 

But now you've turned into one heck of a show off  !
Seriously, I made a few suggestions, YOU made then work.

Viper1 out.


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## pipcount (Oct 9, 2012)

I am with Viper.. There is a strong tendency to overcomplicate archery. 

To put some numbers to this, what I found as I got better, all at 20yds:

Until I put 29/30 arrows on a 60cm/24" target having 600 and 800 spine arrows was good enough. I could not "see" arrow flight well anyway, nor tell much of what I did wrong. 
When I could put 29/30 arrows on 40cm/16" target I started using 800/700/600. But I could barely tell the difference
When I could put 29/30 arrows on 30cm/12" target I invested in spine gaps of 50: 800/750/700/650/600/550/500. 
At first this was clearly overkill.. I did a test at 20yds and put ALL of them pretty much on target in the 12" range one day. As long as I did not hear a "bang" they flew more or less ok.
I could not at first really "see" any difference in flight, but did see it on paper or bare shaft. For a while I bare shafted too much, guess I was simply excited by new idea.
On flip side, over time I figured out stuff, got better, and these have been close enough for me to get to 28 or 29 of 30 into a 20cm/8" target now. 
Additionally, I can usually eyeball to the best arrow and confirm with paper and bareshaft.

I have not yet invested to add smaller increments. I experimented a bit with different tip weights to get in middle, but I could not tell if I shot any better or bare shafted any better... I am not good enough to tell yet.


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## Homey88 (Dec 10, 2013)

Viper,
where can I find one of those pre 1983 Easton spine charts? Thanks


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## Viper1 (Aug 21, 2003)

Homey -

Do a search for Easton Visual Comparator (c1972) or archery catalogs from the 70's through the early 80's - and good luck.

Or, just use the Arrow Guide page on my website .

Viper1 out.


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## Homey88 (Dec 10, 2013)

Viper1 said:


> Homey -
> 
> Do a search for Easton Visual Comparator (c1972) or archery catalogs from the 70's through the early 80's - and good luck.
> 
> ...


Thanks Viper! I’ll use the one on your website!😁


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## smithca1988 (1 mo ago)

1canvas said:


> Since I started traditional three years ago the beginning stages are still fresh in my mind. I got a lot of helpful info from here and elsewhere that kept my expectations in check. When I would make changes and be really happy about them Viper would warn me that I was in the honeymoon stage, how true.
> That said, I was able to keep both expectations and costs down, I started out with the idea of simplicity and buying a bow that wouldn’t hinder my abilities and fit me and my needs, most of all enjoyable to shoot.
> Being into archery all of my life, especially compounds, I was smart enough not to search for that elusive “perfect bow“ or gear that many are on a constant search for. For me good enough is good enough for my bows, gear, and my groups, that has kept my journey into traditional archery enjoyable and just plain fun, something that I find very refreshing at this stage of my life with over 50+ years in archery.


But the problem is seeing new archers with massive draw who are using bows so undersized 30 inch draw on up you wonder how good they are, then same for the bows that are too big and the person is getting 2/3 of the poundage of the bow they are using, having it set up with arrows like they get full 27--28 inch draw in either case is wrong. 

I just had to find a company for me that could make a 24--25 inch one piece Youth Bow at the hunting weights I was looking for but not cost more then the most expensive bow in the lineup so $2,000+ or say they are only willing to make said youth bow to 35 pounds saying they can do a 26 inch draw on the hunting weight bows. I have a 24--24.5 inch draw depending on the bow so to finally find a company making a bow is amazing getting a Youth Longbow at 45 pounds in hickory for the limbs from GREAT PLAINS TRADITIONAL BOW COMPANY Youth Longbow | website (greatplainsbow.com) was like thanks for making a bow I could use better for my small size. Now If I was in Europe I could find a Youth Bow from Barepaw that they do the same thing with but outside of those two areas of USA/Candad and Europe I probably could not find a bow that did not cost a lower end used car or if I did it was going to be right at $2,000 or even more like one place was past $3,000 for the few even willing to attempt such a thing.


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## 3finger (Mar 29, 2018)

smithca1988 said:


> But the problem is seeing new archers with massive draw who are using bows so undersized 30 inch draw on up you wonder how good they are, then same for the bows that are too big and the person is getting 2/3 of the poundage of the bow they are using, having it set up with arrows like they get full 27--28 inch draw in either case is wrong.
> 
> I just had to find a company for me that could make a 24--25 inch one piece Youth Bow at the hunting weights I was looking for but not cost more then the most expensive bow in the lineup so $2,000+ or say they are only willing to make said youth bow to 35 pounds saying they can do a 26 inch draw on the hunting weight bows. I have a 24--24.5 inch draw depending on the bow so to finally find a company making a bow is amazing getting a Youth Longbow at 45 pounds in hickory for the limbs from GREAT PLAINS TRADITIONAL BOW COMPANY Youth Longbow | website (greatplainsbow.com) was like thanks for making a bow I could use better for my small size. Now If I was in Europe I could find a Youth Bow from Barepaw that they do the same thing with but outside of those two areas of USA/Candad and Europe I probably could not find a bow that did not cost a lower end used car or if I did it was going to be right at $2,000 or even more like one place was past $3,000 for the few even willing to attempt such a thing.


What does all of that have to do with tuning the bow?


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## Remote (Dec 10, 2020)

smithca1988 said:


> But the problem is seeing new archers with massive draw who are using bows so undersized 30 inch draw on up you wonder how good they are,


All about draw force curve. I have AMO 30.5" DL, but shoot some 62", even 60", bows just fine. Just shy of stacking, ideal for maximum limb energy. Others not so - awful, impossible. Check out Shrew Bows, some under 60" but take 32" draw. Asiatic bows, case in point.


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## 1canvas (Mar 29, 2009)

Remote said:


> All about draw force curve. I have AMO 30.5" DL, but shoot some 62", even 60", bows just fine. Just shy of stacking, ideal for maximum limb energy. Others not so - awful, impossible. Check out Shrew Bows, some under 60" but take 32" draw. Asiatic bows, case in point.


I was surprised when I went from a 64” bow to a 60” (19” riser and short limbs). I shoot this much better than any combo up to now but I do only have a 27” draw.


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## smithca1988 (1 mo ago)

GCook said:


> I'm sure you are correct on the weight V. Pride is a tough thing to swallow at times.
> I'm in the works of remedying that end for here at home. However for Africa and Alaska I will stick to the stiffer sticks.
> 
> Sent from my Nokia XR20 using Tapatalk


Alaska Has a 45 pound minimum anyhow, they skip Deer Turkey weight and go for the Elk as minimum weight and have a special 50 or 55 pound minimum draw for a bow I forget what the minimum was for Bear also if they just recommended or was an actual hard rule.


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## smithca1988 (1 mo ago)

3finger said:


> What does all of that have to do with tuning the bow?


If you have a wrong sized bow to who you are and keep going off the fact the bow is what the maker/manufacturer says without testing the weight you draw the bow to you will be screwed in never finding the right arrow to match the bow.

Lots of people just go by the draw weight at 28 inches never matching to there own draw weight and can have arrows made for in my case 10 pounds too heavy if I did not get some 500 spine doing the math of -2 pounds per inch of draw weight for a 45 pound bow I drew to 36--37 pounds.


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## smithca1988 (1 mo ago)

1canvas said:


> I was surprised when I went from a 64” bow to a 60” (19” riser and short limbs). I shoot this much better than any combo up to now but I do only have a 27” draw.


I was looking for a one piece bow so yeah my 24--24.5 inch draw, draw depending on riser shape/handle shape.

I had to get a OEELINE Ariobow 56 inch single piece recurve thinking it would work for my 24 inch draw on that bow but the bow is getting 36--37 pounds at my draw I use, same as the 36 pound bow, a longbow at 60 inches, the Actionbow by Actionrod 8200 made from 1961 to end of 1979.

I had to eventually get the GREAT PLAINS TRADITIONAL BOW COMPANY Youth Longbow | website (greatplainsbow.com) bow in hickory due to being one of the few willing to make the kids bow at 45 pounds like I wanted for hunting. I could have gone a little lighter but I wanted a 45 pound bow just so I could if I ever got desire to get an elk tag have the minimum weight bow for that season in South Dakota, not that there are Elk unless you get a tag for the right parts of the Black Hills. I just wanted a 45 pound bow if I ever tried for the tags in the right parts of South Dakota where Elk are. Most others willing to make a bow at the draw I needed were pricing the youth bow at my draw higher then most of the other custom bows they sell so $2,000 + with some higher then $3,000 at nearly $7,000 the quote I got from Wisconsin maker American Archery with the Youth bow that has a 24 or 25 inch draw or Northern Mist telling me they do a 26 inch draw for the Howard Hill model and could only get a specific handle in flat handle grip made in the narrow and deep style that would not fit my small hands that are a Boys Large/Youth XL to Women's Small/unisex and Men's XS so I would have to modify the grip to notched on my own just to fit my hands.


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## 1canvas (Mar 29, 2009)

smithca1988 said:


> I was looking for a one piece bow so yeah my 24--24.5 inch draw, draw depending on riser shape/handle shape.
> 
> I had to get a OEELINE Ariobow 56 inch single piece recurve thinking it would work for my 24 inch draw on that bow but the bow is getting 36--37 pounds at my draw I use, same as the 36 pound bow, a longbow at 60 inches, the Actionbow by Actionrod 8200 made from 1961 to end of 1979.
> 
> I had to eventually get the GREAT PLAINS TRADITIONAL BOW COMPANY Youth Longbow | website (greatplainsbow.com) bow in hickory due to being one of the few willing to make the kids bow at 45 pounds like I wanted for hunting. I could have gone a little lighter but I wanted a 45 pound bow just so I could if I ever got desire to get an elk tag have the minimum weight bow for that season in South Dakota, not that there are Elk unless you get a tag for the right parts of the Black Hills. I just wanted a 45 pound bow if I ever tried for the tags in the right parts of South Dakota where Elk are. Most others willing to make a bow at the draw I needed were pricing the youth bow at my draw higher then most of the other custom bows they sell so $2,000 + with some higher then $3,000 at nearly $7,000 the quote I got from Wisconsin maker American Archery with the Youth bow that has a 24 or 25 inch draw or Northern Mist telling me they do a 26 inch draw for the Howard Hill model and could only get a specific handle in flat handle grip made in the narrow and deep style that would not fit my small hands that are a Boys Large/Youth XL to Women's Small/unisex and Men's XS so I would have to modify the grip to notched on my own just to fit my hands.


Those are some insane prices.


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## c_m_shooter (Aug 15, 2018)

smithca1988 said:


> I was looking for a one piece bow so yeah my 24--24.5 inch draw, draw depending on riser shape/handle shape.
> 
> I had to get a OEELINE Ariobow 56 inch single piece recurve thinking it would work for my 24 inch draw on that bow but the bow is getting 36--37 pounds at my draw I use, same as the 36 pound bow, a longbow at 60 inches, the Actionbow by Actionrod 8200 made from 1961 to end of 1979.
> 
> I had to eventually get the GREAT PLAINS TRADITIONAL BOW COMPANY Youth Longbow | website (greatplainsbow.com) bow in hickory due to being one of the few willing to make the kids bow at 45 pounds like I wanted for hunting. I could have gone a little lighter but I wanted a 45 pound bow just so I could if I ever got desire to get an elk tag have the minimum weight bow for that season in South Dakota, not that there are Elk unless you get a tag for the right parts of the Black Hills. I just wanted a 45 pound bow if I ever tried for the tags in the right parts of South Dakota where Elk are. Most others willing to make a bow at the draw I needed were pricing the youth bow at my draw higher then most of the other custom bows they sell so $2,000 + with some higher then $3,000 at nearly $7,000 the quote I got from Wisconsin maker American Archery with the Youth bow that has a 24 or 25 inch draw or Northern Mist telling me they do a 26 inch draw for the Howard Hill model and could only get a specific handle in flat handle grip made in the narrow and deep style that would not fit my small hands that are a Boys Large/Youth XL to Women's Small/unisex and Men's XS so I would have to modify the grip to notched on my own just to fit my hands.


I just helped a friend set up a Timberpoint Pegasis that was built to 34# @24 inches. Last year she had difficulty shooting field with her sarrels longbow because she bought arrows based on it being marked 44#, but she wasn't pulling it near that far. She will be near the top of the tfaa indoor season this year if she can get to a few shoots. She lives in west tx and isn't close to anywhere.


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## Remote (Dec 10, 2020)

1canvas said:


> I was surprised when I went from a 64” bow to a 60” (19” riser and short limbs). I shoot this much better than any combo up to now but I do only have a 27” draw.


Yeah. It's not a pissing contest with DLs. We all have different bodies. Just about getting bows to fit them. I've seen people with shorter DLs get top performance out of their carefully chosen and tuned rigs, hitting as hard as any.


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## Viper1 (Aug 21, 2003)

Smith - 

While this IS off topic, you started by saying you wanted a one piece bow - and that may have been your first mistake. A 15" or 17" ILF riser with short limbs would perfectly match your needs without breaking a sweat (or the bank). OR, you can spend $2K+ on a bow that won't shoot anywhere near as well. 

This is just a hobby, and we can certainly take whatever path we choose, but IMHO, some choices do make more sense than others. 

Viper1 out.


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## Remote (Dec 10, 2020)

Worth mentioning there are _always_ exceptions to the rule that you should chose a bow length to match your draw length. Case in point are my 58" Slick Sticks (I have 2). I draw 30.5" AMO DL on these no problem. No stacking, not a whiff. Here's why:











Can't judge a bow by its cover. Have to do your homework.


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## WoodsmanRyan (Jul 1, 2016)

Remote said:


> Worth mentioning there are _always_ exceptions to the rule that you should chose a bow length to match your draw length.


I agree that there are a few variables in choosing your bow length. Draw length is a big one, and yes, certain bows stack at certain draw lengths. But finger pinch based on string angle can also cause a bow to be uncomfortable to shoot and lead to a poor release - which is also variable based on the size of your fingers.

For someone starting out, getting a longer bow would be their best bet in removing the stacking and finger pinch variables. I think you're more likely to run into someone who said they had to get rid of a bow because it was too short than because it was too long.


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## Viper1 (Aug 21, 2003)

Remote - 

And stacking isn't the only issue. Things like finger pinch affecting the release and overall stability factor in, and yes, like stacking, they might be subjective to some.

And your DFC is showing a stack, or at least the beginnings of it, between 24 and 32 inches. Like I said, subjective. 

This thread is about tuning, and yes, a guy with a 24" draw can shoot and tune a 70" recurve, and do quite well with it over the short course, where comfort and stability beat speed any day of the week.

Viper1 out


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## Remote (Dec 10, 2020)

Viper1 said:


> Remote -
> 
> And stacking isn't the only issue. Things like finger pinch affecting the release and overall stability factor in, and yes, like stacking, they might be subjective to some.
> 
> ...


Yes stacking is subjective. I put stacking as something technical - the point the bow draws past 90deg with no more to uncurl, which is in turn experienced/felt as the bow 'locking up'. In the DFC above it's not felt at all, something Pete Ward and many others (some with long DLs) that have noted on reviewing this well known bow.

Finger pinch is an issue yes, esp for those with thick fingers. Only had an issue wearing a glove or with trying to draw some short Asiatic bows mediterranean style.

Recommending a longer bow over a shorter one is generally a good idea, but I think as an archer becomes more competent they can explore somewhat more nervous short bows and learn to shoot them very well, rather than simply deciding they should not due to length. Shrew bows, for instance are very short but built to suit longer DLs. 

For those like myself that are barrel chested short bows are easier to shoot as regards clearance, especially in more bulky clothing. For a 70" bow I need to sit the shoulders right out past the hips as recommended by Kaminski and others, or wear a chest guard if more straight up and down. This makes a 70" bow for me a little uncomfortable and less mobile, while definitely more stable and easier on the draw.

But yep, I agree this is getting a bit off topic, however much bow length does impact forgiveness and so tunability.


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## Viper1 (Aug 21, 2003)

Remote -

You are correct, an experienced shooter will make decisions based on his needs (and experience). He will be able to compromise on one feature for the sake of another; or he may just decide he likes one thing more than another. But like tuning, those decisions can't be made my a relative newbie. What he "thinks" he needs initially and what will work for him 6 months or a few years down the line may bear little resemblance. 

There are tons of information on the Internet for choosing and configuring equipment, and yes "tuning". A lot of that information, while technically correct makes new / inexperienced shooters buy and do things they have little hope of comprehending, much less exploiting. That's the problem with a lot of stuff we discuss here: technically correct, but usually inappropriate. (And I know a few "coaches" guilty of that too.)

Viper1 out.


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## smithca1988 (1 mo ago)

1canvas said:


> Those are some insane prices.


Yes, but not the bow I got, was less than the price of a Bear Grizzly and 2--3 models of adult bows are under $1000 two models, at $775, two models at $995. I would have looked at the Youth Bow, a Recurve at 52 inches if I had known like the adult bows you can get the handle in a different style, I would have asked if they could custom more a Kodiak Magnum handle style as I was not sure if the super contour thumb grip would fit my thumb or the odd finger seperator on other side being I am more in a Kids XL to Women's S or Men's/Unisex XS in gloves and not the age they made the Youth bow, a Recurve in. The handle they make for the bow is really close to a Kodiak Magnum already just a tiny bit more contoured.


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## smithca1988 (1 mo ago)

Viper1 said:


> Smith -
> 
> While this IS off topic, you started by saying you wanted a one piece bow - and that may have been your first mistake. A 15" or 17" ILF riser with short limbs would perfectly match your needs without breaking a sweat (or the bank). OR, you can spend $2K+ on a bow that won't shoot anywhere near as well.
> 
> ...


Yes. I had looked at 15 inch or 17 inch riser but I am left eye dominate with 90% of the risers like this being really cheap handles made for right handed with the only one working being a poor design that takes tweaking to work and hope the riser did not come twisted or was in the stages of twisting due to the fact the riser is glued layers of bamboo and a Cheap Chinese bow. The only other I could find was duel shot from NIKA archery they said to never put more then 35 pound limbs on due to the bow being cast aluminum magnesium alloy. 90% of the others were made Right Hand only or the riser was costing as much as a Bear Bow. 

My Bow was ONLY $310 or so even with being 45 pounds so less then a Bear Grizzly. I was NOT going to spend more then $900--$1000 max on the bow as I find these prices crazy for Custom Youth that is not sold in the weight they sell for the main listing as a kids only bow. I was even considering taking two fiberglass bows From Bear, the Titan and cutting risers and gluing the two bows into one bow hoping I was on the lower end of the draw at 22--23 pounds on one bow right before I had gotten the bow I was looking for or doing the same with the SAS Robinhood a 30--35 pound and using a piece of felt strip about 1/2 inch/1 cm wide to build up a riser I could shoot off the plastic shelf and not need to use the screw in rise. Then convert the POS fiberglass arrows at least one into a Bowfishing arrow with the Robinhood SAS Model.


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## smithca1988 (1 mo ago)

Remote said:


> Yes stacking is subjective. I put stacking as something technical - the point the bow draws past 90deg with no more to uncurl, which is in turn experienced/felt as the bow 'locking up'. In the DFC above it's not felt at all, something Pete Ward and many others (some with long DLs) that have noted on reviewing this well known bow.
> 
> Finger pinch is an issue yes, esp for those with thick fingers. Only had an issue wearing a glove or with trying to draw some short Asiatic bows mediterranean style.
> 
> ...


Bear also has a few models the Supermag 48, a 48 inch bow--1966 and Kodiak Magnum 52--1962 inch that accommodate long draws from the bow, the 26--28 inch draws. It is in the bow models that are made for hunting in places they could never hunt before, so thick that walking with what was then some of the smallest bows at 58--56 inches was nearly impossible in the mid 1960's with the later made bow really made for places an archer should really not be going.


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## smithca1988 (1 mo ago)

I do agree with not tuning as close the bow and spine once you find the spine you need to use for the bow until the archer is more experienced and then only mess with one thing at a time like feathers/fletching on arrow as one, FOC as another, and so on. Sometimes doing a change like FOC or shaft length will force you to use different feathers/fletching for the arrow like bigger/longer or less high profile feather/fletching for the arrow.


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## Viper1 (Aug 21, 2003)

Smith - 

I used to be enamored with wood as well, but after a while form has to follow function...
TradTech Titan II 17" ILF Takedown Riser 

or









DAS Bows Risers


Check out the deal on DAS Bows Risers at 3Rivers Archery Supply




www.3riversarchery.com





Either in right or left hand.

And the fletch never affects the tune, unless there's a pretty dramatic weight difference. Like going from 3" feathers to 5" old style plastic vanes, where the diff can be 40 grains.

Viper1 out.


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## smithca1988 (1 mo ago)

Viper1 said:


> Smith -
> 
> I used to be enamored with wood as well, but after a while form has to follow function...
> TradTech Titan II 17" ILF Takedown Riser
> ...


Was still more expensive then what I bought, still more then my entire bow that was $310 before shipping.


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## [email protected] (2 mo ago)

Solid advice in here. Many archers may never achieve close to perfect arrow flight. Shoot to the best of your ability and practice often.


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## DwayneR (Feb 23, 2004)

Imagine shooting a 2315 aluminum arrow out of a 29# recurve....
Ranking 8th in the nation with a total 10point loss on arrow 120 for a miss....


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## DDSHOOTER (Aug 22, 2005)

About 22 mins in for you ethical hunters.


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## kuriousarrow (14 d ago)

Hi All, new here... wanted to share a great podcast I recently listed to regarding tuning.
The Push Podcast Ep.249 - Precision Tuning for the Diehard Bowhunter with Cody Greenwood


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## r_davis (Dec 4, 2020)

I listened to that podcast-
1. Who’s the shooter that can shoot good enough to get consistent results to be able to sell a course about tuning?
2. Did they really say that paradox doesn’t actually happen?
3. Sounds to me like their precision tuning is actually using a radically stiff arrow that doesn’t have a recovery period for really close range shots?


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## GCook (Aug 22, 2016)

r_davis said:


> I listened to that podcast-
> 1. Who’s the shooter that can shoot good enough to get consistent results to be able to sell a course about tuning?
> 2. Did they really say that paradox doesn’t actually happen?
> 3. Sounds to me like their precision tuning is actually using a radically stiff arrow that doesn’t have a recovery period for really close range shots?


I've met and hunted with Cody. I found him to be a straightforward and humble archer. Nice fella as well. But he had some learning to do then. As we all do. 
I'm not saying he's THE authority on all things tuning. However I agree with a stiff arrow being easier to tune. I shoot a stiff arrow and I know well what my arrow flight is, my penetration capability is and have the dead animals cut up in the freezer as evidence. 
I don't know you. You haven't been on here much and I have no clue what qualifies you to question anyone. You could be the next world champion for all I know. 
That said I'll say this, just because many may not be consistent enough to precision tune doesn't mean others aren't. Just because one isn't perfect doesn't disqualify their ability to teach or impart information. If one had to be perfect then none could bring along those who will carry on. 

Sent from my Nokia XR20 using Tapatalk


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## Beendare (Jan 31, 2006)

Agreed on the premise that a new archer needs to develop consistently good form before attempting to tune.

Personally, I find shooting bareshafts a good way to keep my form in good shape. I went through a period where I was just shooting- no bare shafts…and no blank bale…and I developed a couple shooting quirks.

All of a sudden, I couldn’t get a bare shaft to fly. It was plucking and a little bit of torque in my grip that I didnt realize I had developed.…but at any rate….

Bare shaft shooting and blank baling is helping me pull it back together And I need to do this regularly.


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## Jim Casto Jr (Aug 20, 2002)

r_davis said:


> ... 2. Did they really say that paradox doesn’t actually happen? ...


Yeah, but like so many do, they're substituting flexing with the word paradox. Arrows don't paradox and the flexing is what overcomes the archers paradox. As long as you know the context of their misuse of the word it falls in place.


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## r_davis (Dec 4, 2020)

GCook said:


> I've met and hunted with Cody. I found him to be a straightforward and humble archer. Nice fella as well. But he had some learning to do then. As we all do.
> I'm not saying he's THE authority on all things tuning. However I agree with a stiff arrow being easier to tune. I shoot a stiff arrow and I know well what my arrow flight is, my penetration capability is and have the dead animals cut up in the freezer as evidence.
> I don't know you. You haven't been on here much and I have no clue what qualifies you to question anyone. You could be the next world champion for all I know.
> That said I'll say this, just because many may not be consistent enough to precision tune doesn't mean others aren't. Just because one isn't perfect doesn't disqualify their ability to teach or impart information. If one had to be perfect then none could bring along those who will carry on.
> ...


So Cody is the shooter for the course then. Copy that. I have met and shot with Cody as well, he was an awesome guy.

I do not agree with paper tuning at close range for finger shooters. I also have to remember that it seemed like this idea is for sub 10yd shots where they say that they don’t get good penetration with standard tuning. My theory is that the arrow is still recovering from paradox leading to their issue perhaps. With a radically stiff arrow, you could basically eliminate paradox, this will lead to greater penetration at very close ranges. Hence the bullet hole in paper at very close range. I wonder how this method works out for them at say 30-40yds, but then once again I have to remember that this is for hunting at close ranges so I guess it doesn’t matter. I’m not sure I’d call it precision tuning, I think I’d call it detuning for max penetration at close ranges. Which at the end of the day, for hunting, I think this is what we’re all after.

I shoot and tune to a high level, so I feel like I can discuss ideas and methods which we may or may not agree on. Maybe I’ll learn something new as well. I apologize if it seemed like I was talking down about anyone, that wasn’t the intention.


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## GCook (Aug 22, 2016)

Jim Casto Jr said:


> Yeah, but like so many do, they're substituting flexing with the word paradox. Arrows don't paradox and the flexing is what overcomes the archers paradox. As long as you know the context of their misuse of the word it falls in place.


That's knitpicking on wording Jim. The process is what the term covers. Not the individual aspects. No finger release is as perfect as a mechanical release but even a release aid user is subject to a poor release. 
But if one can work to get a consistent and smooth release the paradox created is overcome quicker. Past center cut allows the riser to be easily cleared. A stiffer shaft is easily used and well tuned. 

Sent from my Nokia XR20 using Tapatalk


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## Jim Casto Jr (Aug 20, 2002)

Not knitpicking, GC, and the process is not the term for the archers paradox. However, I knew what they meant and tried to clarifiy it for r_davis. Hopefully, that was the outcome.


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## c_m_shooter (Aug 15, 2018)

I think what is being lost in this discussion is that 20 yards is just a rough tune. Fine tuning happens at 50, 60, 80 yards. If you are shooting off the shelf, you are extremely limited in tuning options for a walkback.

I chose 50 yards for my group tuning, getting ready for field season just because it is the furthest distance I still hold on the bale. When I take the arrows that group tuned the best and shoot a bareshaft at 20 yards, it does not group with fletched anymore. If I depended on a 20 yard bareshaft as a final tune, I would not be on the paper at 50.

We are in the middle of indoor season now. I will take being able to hold on the spot at 20 over pretty flight. Actually was horrified today shooting my indoor arrows out in the wind this morning. They are scoring well, so not changing a thing until the end of season. Will shoot the first couple 3ds with them just because the seasons overlap and I am focused more on indoor.


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## Beendare (Jan 31, 2006)

c_m_shooter said:


> …. When I take the arrows that group tuned the best and shoot a bareshaft at 20 yards, it does not group with fletched anymore. If I depended on a 20 yard bareshaft as a final tune, I would not be on the paper at 50.
> …


Now thats interesting….and will make me rethink things. How do you think that carries over to BHs at longer ranges Like 40y? I used to group tune with BHs at long range with a compound…it makes sense it would work with trad bows too. 

I had always thought Bare shaft tuning was the ticket for trad bows until I talked to Dwayne Martin years ago. He said he picked up a couple points with a slightly out of tune arrow (20y) when a guy that can shoot back to back 300rds talks…I listen- grin


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## DwayneR (Feb 23, 2004)

Beendare said:


> Now thats interesting….and will make me rethink things. How do you think that carries over to BHs at longer ranges Like 40y? I used to group tune with BHs at long range with a compound…it makes sense it would work with trad bows too.
> 
> I had always thought Bare shaft tuning was the ticket for trad bows until I talked to Dwayne Martin years ago. He said he picked up a couple points with a slightly out of tune arrow (20y) when a guy that can shoot back to back 300rds talks…I listen- grin


I used to watch the arrows and mark them. Usually I would find one arrow that seem to stand out slightly from
all the rest. I could take that arrow and turn the nock about 180, and that arrow would immediately climb that
two inches off, right back into the group where it was supposed to be. If not, I would turn the nock 90 degrees
one way or another and that would either bring the arrow back or not.

If bare shafts can't hit a target at 50 yards (traditional we are talking) then it will be either your release or
a poorly tuned bow. But if they hit slightly above the feathered arrows at 20, with straightness, then it is
a persons release....

Most folks have very poor releases... Yeah, they fire arrows down the lane with 50# bows and hit fairly well,
but take those feathers off, or better yet, give them a 20 or 25 pound bow and see how well they hit. Most
can't hit manure, because their release is so poor. High poundage bows force the string off the fingers, 
covering up all the errors of a good release. Low poundage bows teach you how to release the string,
because there is no coverup for mistakes. 

Another thing that teaches you a good release, is very heavy spined arrows for light bows. This amplifies
your mistakes on the release, because the arrow doesn't flex at the moment of truth. It is done flexing
almost at the time of "Moment of truth.

I shot a 2315 out of a 29# bow for a long time. With a complete 10 point miss on arrow 120, I still
ranked 8th in the nation. I could have been 3 or 4th in the nation with a 10 point hit. But that was
wishful thinking back then. I chocked and blew it. . . Gotta smile and accept the consequences, while
enjoying the fun you had accomplishing what you did.


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## c_m_shooter (Aug 15, 2018)

Beendare said:


> Now thats interesting….and will make me rethink things. How do you think that carries over to BHs at longer ranges Like 40y? I used to group tune with BHs at long range with a compound…it makes sense it would work with trad bows too.
> 
> I had always thought Bare shaft tuning was the ticket for trad bows until I talked to Dwayne Martin years ago. He said he picked up a couple points with a slightly out of tune arrow (20y) when a guy that can shoot back to back 300rds talks…I listen- grin


Broadheads I just shoot to 25. I don't group tune broadheads because I hate fletching arrows. Here is a 175 grain Jager and 2 field points at 20 yards. I think it is good enough to hunt.


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## Remote (Dec 10, 2020)

Really good post @DwayneR. I learned some things.

I shoot off the shelf for hunting and only walk back bareshaft tune to 30m max these days. Anything past that loses real meaning with subtle form errors. Arrow flight with the sun behind me is a better guide past 30m for me, off the shelf. Off a rest is another story.


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## DwayneR (Feb 23, 2004)

Viper1 said:


> Remote -
> 
> You are correct, an experienced shooter will make decisions based on his needs (and experience). He will be able to compromise on one feature for the sake of another; or he may just decide he likes one thing more than another. But like tuning, those decisions can't be made my a relative newbie. What he "thinks" he needs initially and what will work for him 6 months or a few years down the line may bear little resemblance.
> 
> ...


Hello my friend... I hope all is well with you....
This post alone should be a sticky.....extremely well said...unfortunately hardly ever understood.


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## Viper1 (Aug 21, 2003)

Dwayne - 

Good to see you back, old friend. I remember you talking about those 2315s out of a 29# bow at a blazing 98 fps. I wonder how many folks here understand why you did that and why it worked.

Hope you can stick around for a while.

Viper1 out.


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## DwayneR (Feb 23, 2004)

Viper1 said:


> Dwayne -
> 
> Good to see you back, old friend. I remember you talking about those 2315s out of a 29# bow at a blazing 98 fps. I wonder how many folks here understand why you did that and why it worked.
> 
> ...


By the way.... since we last chatted. . . I have worked up to a 15# bow. I can hold it back for about
10 seconds, but shake a little....I think my age has caught up to me to be any good with anything
at all. I leary of shooting much, because I am hovering plus or minus 5 inches around the Bullseye.
I am afraid of "snap" shooting, or "anticipating" coming across the bullseye. So I just let her fly
and not worry about where it hits that much. Yeah, I may score a 180, but my regular 270's are
definitely out of the question. 

I have a great nephew that is really interested in Archery...So I do it for him.

You take care my friend....Watch your 6 and keep teaching!... If only we had more folks like
you, and were able to steer more beginners and intermediates away from internet bad advice.

Dwayne


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## Viper1 (Aug 21, 2003)

Dwayne - 

The years catch up with all of us. Guys like you who've been there and done that are the ones who keep the rest us honest. 

Shoot when you feel like, enjoy the shot, and peace always. 

 I still get a chuckle when i read your "newbie" sticky in the shooting sub forum - well done.

Viper1 out.


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## farisman (8 d ago)

Viper1 said:


> Dwayne -
> 
> Good to see you back, old friend. I remember you talking about those 2315s out of a 29# bow at a blazing 98 fps. I wonder how many folks here understand why you did that and why it worked.
> 
> ...


Well I'm new and curious. And I've got a 30# bow and few 2213s to play with. I enjoy watching them fly - slow enough for my eyes. What are the other pros of launching curtain rods?


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## Viper1 (Aug 21, 2003)

f -

Dwayne was a competitive bare bow shooter and a very good one. He tuned his rig for a dead nuts point on at 20 yards/18M. The rig was purpose built, and while basically useless for anything else, there it was pretty hard to beat.

There's also an argument that a fatter arrows (so-called line breakers) has a greater change of breaking into the higher scoring rings. At higher levels that too can be debated.

It just proves the point that at close range, a perfect tune may not always be to your advantage.

I'll make matters worse.

While I probably shouldn't admit to this ... last week I went to the range after "cleaning out" my bow case of several sets of limbs and arrows I wouldn't be using in the near future (yeah, those bow cases can get heavy).

When I got there, I started setting up my rig, and found I brought mismatched limbs that where not only different materials but about 6# apart. Now, it's a two hour round trip anytime I want to shoot, so going home without shooting time wasn't a great option.

I strung the bow, and the tiller was off by a mile, OK about 3/4". Since it's an ILF rig, I tweaked the bolts to get the tiller close to normal, recorded the changes, and even the first arrow went pretty close to where I was aiming and my subsequent scores weren't that far off. Granted, this was indoors at 20 yards, but sometimes we worry about the wrong things and that story does go to the point of this thread.

Viper1 out.


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## r_davis (Dec 4, 2020)

I absolutely agree with Viper. The better we become, the more we tune for a desired result. You have to know your shot and tendencies to a high level for this to happen.

Let’s make an example-
Let’s say you’re shooting mid 270’s (barebow) with a perfect bareshaft tune. You notice that under pressure you sometimes shoot weak shots that hit left/stiff 9,8, maybe 7 rings (right hand archer). You decide to tune a slightly weak arrow so that under pressure those weak shots are still close to “tuned”, and now you catch 9’s always. Now suddenly you’re shooting 280. What’s the better setup? Tuned or not tuned?

This is of course an example and there’s way more to it, but the point is, until you reach a certain level it doesn’t matter and close enough is good enough. Focus more on “you” and the tuning will come. Personally I do really enjoy talking about tuning though!


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## Hank D Thoreau (Dec 9, 2008)

r_davis said:


> I absolutely agree with Viper. The better we become, the more we tune for a desired result. You have to know your shot and tendencies to a high level for this to happen.
> 
> Let’s make an example-
> Let’s say you’re shooting mid 270’s (barebow) with a perfect bareshaft tune. You notice that under pressure you sometimes shoot weak shots that hit left/stiff 9,8, maybe 7 rings (right hand archer). You decide to tune a slightly weak arrow so that under pressure those weak shots are still close to “tuned”, and now you catch 9’s always. Now suddenly you’re shooting 280. What’s the better setup? Tuned or not tuned?
> ...


In golf they call this choosing the club for your average shot, not your best shot. Ego often subverts this sage advice. The key is understanding what your average is. Our brains like to excuse and edit out the shots that we don't want to consider.


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## PCAB (6 d ago)

Brian N said:


> I'll add a personal observation as well: Tuning is not a one time "Set it and forget it" Over the last couple of years, I've tweaked my tune, mostly which accompany improvements in my precision. Changes involved tweaks of the plunger and nocking point, and maybe a 1/4 turn of the limb bolts. I don't expect that my tuning will ever be completely "done".


Strings also stretch


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## 3finger (Mar 29, 2018)

Hank D Thoreau said:


> In golf they call this choosing the club for your average shot, not your best shot. Ego often subverts this sage advice. The key is understanding what your average is. Our brains like to excuse and edit out the shots that we don't want to consider.


True .WHO PUT THOSE HOLES IN THE 3 RING ON MY TARGET?. (NFAA Blue face.) I remember an add one of the contributors to the FITA page did some years ago. In the first edition the 168cm FITA face had many holes all over the face of course his were in the ten ring. Some time later the same add, second edition came out with a very poor job of photo-shopping out all the undesirable holes. Pretty funny. Here recently my well tuned set-up has been grouping left, I could soften the plunger to help but I know those left arrows are an anchor/aiming issue. Form errors are a work in progress.


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