# Next NFAA PRO chair?



## bigGP

Is anyone even interested in the race for the next Pro chair? There are some interesting things in the works and we could possibly make some good advances for the Professional sport of archery in the future. Is anyone wanting to get involved or is it gonna be the same ole same ole?

The fact that LESS THEN 30 pros voted last time concern anyone else???


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## Mike2787

Since this is a good place to put all of the info, I would like to hear what good things are coming in the future and what the candidate's positions are on the issues. Since the NFAA Pro Division is the only group I am aware of that represents archery professionals, I think the next chairman is going to be critical to the success of our group. I've been here a long time and I've heard and been involved with several ideas that were tried to advance the growth of professional archery, but 33 years later, we are basically still having pot shoots. I'd like to hear something fresh and exciting. I'd like to hear the candidates platforms. Thanks bigGP for getting this started.


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## 60Xbulldog60X

I for one am very interested in what is happening in the Pro Division. It was a welcome sight at the last meeting to see so many Pro's attending the meeting. That was the biggest turnout I have witnessed so far for a Pro meeting. I for one think that there should be a meeting at every WAF and NFAA venue that we attend. With having only one meeting a year, things are forgotten and makes it hard to stay on top of the issues that we face. I also think that Bruce should be in attendance at these meetings with input on what is going on in the organization. The problems that we face can only be fixed if we all work together. One person cannot make things happen by themselves. No matter how hard a Pro Chair works for the good of the division, they will need the help of all the Pro's in the division. I honestly believe that if we all work together and stay on top of the issues that we can better the division and archery as a whole. Anyone reading this post should contact your local Pro or Pros and tell them about this thread and to give input on this matter.

Take care,

Kendall Woody


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## Moparmatty

:moviecorn:


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## brtesite

bigGP said:


> Is anyone even interested in the race for the next Pro chair? There are some interesting things in the works and we could possibly make some good advances for the Professional sport of archery in the future. Is anyone wanting to get involved or is it gonna be the same ole same ole?
> 
> The fact that LESS THEN 30 pros voted last time concern anyone else???


 greg, you may have answered your own question.
i think most don't care to be involved.
I have 35 pros in my section, 6 shot the sectionals. I know the sectionals don't pay much, but it is a registered shoot. Maybe double pro points would help.


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## blueglide1

I agree Kendall,I think some good info was given at the meeting and now after the new Pro Chair is elected its time to put the info into motion.It was a good thing that Bruce was listening ,and giving advice as to how we can get our voices heard.I sincerely hope that the next chair wont have as difficult time as Diane had with the powers that be.Diane tried hard and kudos to her for not giving up to adversity.Whoever the next chair is good luck,and good hunting.
Don Ward


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## deadx

GP, remember a couple of years ago when I asked that the pros in attendance vote on whether we should have a pro organization and almost everyone just sat there with dumb looks on their face? I have not attended a meeting since then and I won`t attend any meetings until we get an organization up and running. It doesn`t do any good to have meetings when we have no authority to do anything because we have no professional organization. We have all the expertise and knowledge in the world to run an effective professional organization but we are all willing to settle for "pot shoots" as Mike so aptly calls them. When I have occasion to tell someone who asks me that I am a professional archer I usually get a look that says" Really, I didn`t know there was such a thing!". I am beginning to think that is right. I think we are all just "pot shooters" and wanna be pros. We have no authority to approach sponsors and videographers to film shoots for tv because we have no organization. We aren`t going to get any real money unless we form an organization, much like the PGA, and get real sponsorship money that will let archery pros actually make a living shooting their bows.


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## PAUL PUGLISI

bring back the PPA, for those that remember it.


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## deadx

Paul, I believe that should be the PAA not the PPA.......


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## Mike2787

Here are a couple of ideas that have failed in the past. The NFAA Pro Division voted to take part of pro dues and the majority of pots and place it into a fund and hire someone to promote professional archery with the intent of selling the sport to outside sponsors or get TV exposure. For a couple of years, first place at Nationals paid a couple of hundred bucks in men’s unlimited. The smaller purse sizes made going to tournaments less attractive to a lot of pros and the NFAA Pro Division experienced a large drop-off in membership. Obviously, that approach didn’t work.

Next, the PAA (a group that did not embrace the compound and release) and NFAA Pro Division decided to merge. The PAA was an unaffiliated group and therefore could not be influenced by the NFAA Board or the regular membership for that matter. Once again, the idea was to try and attract outside sponsorship. Most NFAA Pros bought into this but a few decided to stay put. The NFAA Board was highly upset and decided to keep an NFAA Pro Division and compete against the PAA. The PAA was a small group and had no success in establishing itself as a major influence in archery championships outside of their own indoor and outdoor nationals. This experiment lasted no more than 3 years before the pros, with humble hat in hand, went back to the only professional archery organization available to them. Once again, the pro membership declined and nothing of real value was gained.

I’m only citing these examples as two things that I know did not work in the past and if anyone suggests this as their platform without advocating any fresh ideas, then I’m not going to be supportive. I don’t know what the answers are. There are many people in the organization that have the experience to move us forward. I’m open to changes but it has to make sense.


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## deadx

The NFAA Pro Division is only one division among several others in the NFAA organization at this time. If we have our own separate professional organization with elected leadership then we can make deals with other non-archery related sponsors and conduct our own policing of our own ranks and pursue much higher tournament paybacks than what we presently enjoy, perhaps even setting up tournaments outside of the sanction of the NFAA. Should we consult with the PGA to determine how their professional organization is conducted and run or do we have enough info on that from our own wanna-be archery "pros" who also play golf? One thing is for sure, the number of different styles that are supported in the prospective new Professional organization will have to be reduced to two, Pro Male and Pro Female in both compound and recurve. I think we can arrive at a solution without forking out a lot of consultation fees and reducing paybacks even temporarily.


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## 60Xbulldog60X

Hey Steve,

I understand where you are coming from but I'm not sure that is the answer. This has been tried before and ultimately failed.The main problem the division has as far as getting anything accomplished is that there are very few Pro's that are in the politics of the organization. Most of the Pro's do give back to the sport in some form or fashion but the political part is not one of them. The Pro division has a Pro Chair that goes to the NFAA meetings. This one person is all we have representing us to the other 50 Directors and Councilmen. If anyone wants to see why we never get anything accomplished, all they have to do is go to a NFAA meeting and you will be able to see very quickly why the Pro division never gets anywhere. The Pro Chair basically just bangs their head against a wall trying to convince 50 Directors to vote in favor of an agenda item. It's a good chance that the agenda item may never get to the floor to be voted on. It has to go through a commity first. The only way we are going to make advancements in the division is for the Pro's to step up and participate in the political aspect of the organization. If Pro's would take Directors positions in their perspective State Associations, then things could move forward. I also think that Bruce should be at all Pro meetings. If he wants to grow the sport, then he should have no problem sitting in on the meetings and giving advice on the issues that we face. I honestly think that if we all step up and take a part in the organization that we can accomplish great things for all of archery. Waiting around for things to fall out of the sky has not produced anything. We must all take an active part.

Anywho, let's keep this going.

Take care,

Kendall


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## FV Chuck

Well, .... I was nominated... I'll chime in a bit.
By the way, Chuck Cooley here.

I'm pretty intrigued by what's listed so far. It really falls in line with what I said at this past meeting and last year as well. IMHO the Pro division is a commodity and a business. It needs to be marketed and treated as such. We treat it like a job and get paid for what we do. Some more than others but we are ALL doing it for some kind of money or something. Pro ball players, Pro golfers, Pro drivers, Pro jockeys... whatever...it's all Pro divisions - it's a primary draw and revenue stream for the related organizations and should be treated that way. It's all in the marketing. Every industry has it's elite group that drive that industry. It's good for research, product development and sales. 
I think finding some sort of middle ground on our own control or self direction with the ability to work together for the success of both of us is critical. Simply trying to walk away and form our own new pro org deal I wouldn't bank on working. I wouldn't support it yet, we dont have the funding or the base to make it work. (unless somebody's got 100K to drop?...... anyone?,..... anyone??.. )

That said though this process, this plan, this dream we share is pretty complex and hard to just wave a hand at and solve. It's not a problem the "next guy" solves 100%...it's a plan that continues the motions and progress that Diane has tried to do so far with possibly a different tack, or different goals initially. Then the long term stuff starts to develop and grow...whatever we decide that should be. 

Kendall hit the nail on the head PERFECT. As Pro's the days of throwing your hands in the air and saying well it's never gonna change because we dont have a vote have to stop. The NFAA structure is pretty straightforward with directors, council and board. If WE, yes WE want to see change then we need to become part of the solution. I dont think the council as a whole is anti-Pro, but you have to remember they ARE for the NFAA. It's what they were entrusted with. Ideas and changes that are presented must be well thought out, balanced, and good for both the Pro Division and the NFAA as a whole.

Keep in mind we do have a voice at the Sectional level... in every section. If you dont know who your Pro rep is than you should a) find out b) run for it if there is no representation. c) find a way to help or communicate with the other pros in your section to make things better. Address your concerns and have them brought to the table so we can fix them. FWIW Tom Coblenz is the Mid-Atlantic Rep.

If you dont have good state representation for the Pro Class by your Director...run for the position, Directors have a vote....we need votes!

The Pro Chair also has a vote at the upper level as well. Now when you look at 50 to 1, the odds well....not so good. But great well thought out, well planned, well intentioned planse brought up through the directors, council and board stand a much better chance if there are votes behind it all along. It's a long process but it is still a process. The doors are not closed just hard to get to.

There is also supposed to be a Pro Executive Council, put in place by the Pro Chair. This council should be working together with the Pro Classes to further their ideals and dreams as well as supporting the Pro Division with help for the Chair, help for the NFAA, help for us... That council will be a very important part of the team that takes us into the next level as a group.

As for meetings Kendall there are actually a minimum of 2 per year. Indoor and Outdoor Nationals. I'd like to see more myself..this much work will need more input but thats the minimum right now.

I'll jump off for now.... I think I have some really tremendous ideas that would further the Pro cause but it's important to listen as well. I dont want to just stand here on a soapbox and preach it. I'd like to hear more and develop it....

Thanks-

Chuck


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## target guy

Chuck, I do agree with you that the Pro class needs a better representation. Here is something I also believe in, you mentioned pro golf, ball, drivers, jockeys etc. to become a pro in everything except ball (and most of them have a college background) you HAVE to be schooled in that area. You have to progress in knowledge and ability. To become an NFAA pro you have a current pro sign off and you pay your fee. Where is the “pro” in that? 
A professional in any area has had to show they can be a professional. The NFAA has no pro school and until they can show that a pro archer is truly a professional I believe that nothing will change. I also agree that unless you drop to two divisions anyone outside of archery will never understand why there are so many “champions”.


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## AT_X_HUNTER

Target Guy, you don't even need a current pro to sign off on you anymore. All you need to do to shoot pro division is pay additional dues and tournament fees. I joined up a couple years ago. When elections were held last year I found out about them after the fact. I don't think the NFAA even has anything in the mag about PRO divisions. But why should they? To them we are just another division, same as bowhunter or any of the other 5 million divisions.

Pro golf got it's start with a department store owner wanting to brand some products. He got some of the top golfers together and created a signature line of equipment. Eventually it evolved into what it is today, but at it's base the PGA is still a brand. The problem with comparing archery to golf or pro ball is that our game is much more diverse than theirs. In basketball, everyone plays with basically the same format that everyone watching understands. The ball, court, hoop, etc. are the same. scoring is the same no matter if it's high school, college, or pro ball. Same goes for golf. In our sport there are different scoring on different targets, 3-D, Field, indoors, outdoors, FITA, name your flavor. Then you have the guys that just hunt and shoot in their back yards. How do you brand or market to that? How do you brand a group of Pros that only have to pay an additional fee per year to be a Pro? What makes us special? What did we do that the average guy can't? I don't have an answer anymore than anyone else here.

Being new here (to pro div), and since I wasn't able to go to the meeting, I have a question. Where can I find info relating to our group? I haven't seen anything on the NFAA site or in the mag. I know we don't have our own web site or e-mail. How do I even find out who is running for pro chair? Beyond that, how do I cast a vote? I assume I won't see a ballot in the mail or find a link to any kind of online voting.


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## DarrinM

You all do realize the PGA and the PGA Tour are different orgs within the same family right?

As a past shooter of some merit I do believe there is some opportunity but as of yet the right persons have not appeared. One day maybe.

Outside sponsorship is just a beginning... To get that you need a forum. I do not see a TV contract in our future and the small crowds that attend shoots will not warrant a large sponsorship committment at this time.

Good luck Chuck and all of you other pros! I hope you make it blossom!!!!!! Darrin


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## FV Chuck

Darrin.... 

yours is more than just a respected opinion, not just a shooter of some merit (well in my opinion anyway)
I think many are either to new or too quick to forget your resume. I remember you having help and advice for me many many times.

I frankly dont like the full blown comparisons to golf either.(even though I've used it in the past, I need to not do it again).... the more I think about it we are so far from the stratospheric standard of golf and the revenues that you may as well compare a t-ball team to MLB. I mean really....

As for the TV thing, I actually think it's something thats much much closer to the horizon than most of you think. Of course it's going to take a pretty good pile of cash and a big gamble but there are ways and means that will support it. If anyone needs proof that it's coming, go look up the ArcheryTV Channel on YouTube. 5.3 MILLION views on just over 700 vids. It was created in 2007, so dropping the first year or so for growth and discovery that leaves 4 Million views in 2 years.... It is crystal CLEAR that there is an audience and there is a format it just needs to be embraced and developed here in the US. These people have moved the bar a very long way. For starters they have sponsors like KIA motors, Longines, Turkish Airlines etc.... 

ArcheryTV Channel
http://www.youtube.com/user/archerytv

An example of their production, World Cup 2010 Stage 1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=swvtFP0DaDU

Copenhagen... The CROWN PRINCE of Denmark was there for crying out loud!
http://youtu.be/rW1IiwDcAtM


We may not see it on ESPN Primetime anytime soon, but I think it's making amazing progress. 

IHMO- THESE are the types of partnerships the Pro division needs to develop and foster. But there is much work to be done before these types of relationships can even be a dream. I'll tell you now the NFAA as a whole will have the drop on us as a division because of the relationship THEY have already fostered with FITA and the World Championships....It is our DUTY and and JOB to get on board and be a part of it. Standing by and watching the extravaganza that is almost certain to happen in Vegas this upcoming year will be like watching the train leave the station in my opinion. Now I dont know if they have anything planned or not or even if they are dreaming of it but if I was Bruce, and I knew the World Championship was coming to Vegas again, and bringing FITA-TV like they did last time (2010) I would be doing all I could to find a way to get something going.... Our next Pro Chair should be trying to make inroads as well.

Back to the point of getting us to the next level....
Most of it goes to a couple basic things (NFAA Administration notwithstanding for this part of the conversation) I think thats a whole topic and issue on it's own
We need to find our identity - who are we?.. really??? who are we in every sense of the word. What do WE have to offer an advertiser or sponsor.
We need to sculpt that identity into exactly what it is they want....
We need to then actively and aggressively align and market that Pro product to those sponsors/advertisers.
Once we get to that point we can start to look at our ranks and our group and then start to implement the training and qualifying schools and things like that... but honestly I think thats a bit off in the future. The framework should be designed and built now for the generations that are coming.

THese are some of the things I'd like to see advanced for the Pro Division...


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## FV Chuck

target guy said:


> Chuck, I do agree with you that the Pro class needs a better representation. Here is something I also believe in, you mentioned pro golf, ball, drivers, jockeys etc. to become a pro in everything except ball (and most of them have a college background) you HAVE to be schooled in that area. You have to progress in knowledge and ability. To become an NFAA pro you have a current pro sign off and you pay your fee. Where is the “pro” in that?
> A professional in any area has had to show they can be a professional. The NFAA has no pro school and until they can show that a pro archer is truly a professional I believe that nothing will change. I also agree that unless you drop to two divisions anyone outside of archery will never understand why there are so many “champions”.


I think I failed to address this earlier.... I certainly believe there needs to be a training ground, a progression, a set of standards that needs to be met to become a Pro...several ideas have been brought forward already but if those standards are too tight initially then the class becomes self suffocating...right now I think it's important to bring new members to gain the "strength in numbers" aspect and then plan our outline or a long term goal of our higher tougher standards...mentioning maybe a first step idea here, you would be required to shoot your State, Sectional, and at least one National every year to keep your card...but these are just some of the beginning phases...we have much much much to do before we can get to this actual super elite phase. But I like the direction your going TargetGuy


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## ohioarcher300

I had mentioned a couple years ago that the state shoot and sectionals could be used as a qualifier to get in the pro class. You would have to shoot them to get in.



FV Chuck said:


> I think I failed to address this earlier.... I certainly believe there needs to be a training ground, a progression, a set of standards that needs to be met to become a Pro...several ideas have been brought forward already but if those standards are too tight initially then the class becomes self suffocating...right now I think it's important to bring new members to gain the "strength in numbers" aspect and then plan our outline or a long term goal of our higher tougher standards...mentioning maybe a first step idea here, you would be required to shoot your State, Sectional, and at least one National every year to keep your card...but these are just some of the beginning phases...we have much much much to do before we can get to this actual super elite phase. But I like the direction your going TargetGuy


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## 60Xbulldog60X

Hey Chuck, 

These are some really good ideas. I was told recently that the Pro's use to get pro points for attending State and Sectional tournaments. I assume that these points went towards the Shooter of the Year Awards. That is an assumtion though. Not sure if they still do that or not or if they ever did at all. This could be a good idea in order to get the Pros to compete at the State and Sectional level.


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## field14

So, folks, how is it that EUROPE is taking the lead in WORLD field archery Pro Tour events? How can this happen? WHY is it happening "over there".

http://wn.com/New_Pro_Archery_Series_Event__Welsh_Masters_2011

THREE tournaments "over there" in 2011...and somewhere, I know that there is a and on-line link where you can watch the event...just didn't take the time to find it....today....

THEY are getting the money not only to hold the event...but also get it LIVE ACTION on video?? We here in the USA are lagging way behind, folks!

I do believe that Dave Cousins won the tournament that was held in Wales this past weekend...by 5 points. FULL COVERAGE...from a tournament in Wales? Are we missing the boat? You be the judge.....

http://www.europroarchery.com/cgi-bin/start.cgi/main.htm


field14 (Tom D.)


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## FV Chuck

Tom -

.... Your years and experience demand respect so understand when I say this - I do it nicely. Please do not derail this thread into a blame game.... if you want to comment #1) be respectful #2) have some suggestions.

I think I also addressed much of it in my response to Darrin (see post #17)

This particular series (unless something has changed) is generally not live but slightly tape delayed. It's important to note that this Pro Series has been going since 2008.... it's not new or alarming really if you've been on the tour. They actually do a pretty decent job and the idea has some real merit. Understand though that this is a series created with IFAA affiliation and with a pretty good financial backing to launch it. It was mentioned in another thread that this kind of thing could exist in the US but one would need tens of thousands of dollars if not more than 100K to launch it effectively and with some hope of success and growth. 

From their website... I did some looking around before posting.
_What is European Professional Archery?

European Professional Archery is a commercially run enterprise acting as promoters of professional tournaments. We promote the PMFU and PFFU professional classes within the IFAA, and we are dedicated to producing a real Professional Archery Series within Europe.

We do not run the tournaments ourselves. We pay IFAA affiliated clubs to do this. We promote the events, we handle the entries, we raise sponsorship for the events, we underwrite the financial side of the events and in conjunction with Alternative2TV we provide an online video platform for the advertisers and sponsors to get value for the money they put into each event. To date, Alternative Services is by far the biggest contributor to the funding and promotion of European Professional Archery.

"European Professional Archery is a commercially run enterprise acting as promoters of professional tournaments."

The European Professional Archery concept was created by IFAA Vice President, Steve Kendrick and Alternative Services owner, Tony Goodwin. Other founding personnel include Edwin de Ligter and Glyn Goodwin. We also employ a film crew on an ad-hoc basis for each event plus we have various other people that work towards the successful promotion of the events.

We appreciate this is completely different to the way things are normally done within archery, but as an analogy, Formula 1 do not run motor races, they employ tracks and the various FIA national bodies to do that for them._

IMHO - In the US there are several primary competitors for "Pro" shooters... NFAA/IFAA/ (the NAA or World Cup)/IBO/ASA just to grab the ones off the top of my head. Then you have several state orgs and private companies also holding major money shoots. (Iowa, Badger, BigSky, LAS Classic to pop a few)... 

Yes things like this should absolutely be on our horizon as Pro's but initially we are going to have to work with those org's to create viability and desire for sponsor marketing dollars. Key questions include why should a sponsor like Hoyt give a new org 10,20,or 50K for a series and not just spread it around to the existing orgs?... Additionally there is a huge cultural difference in archery when comparing Europe to US. The interest and attention paid to it per capita are alarmingly different. Here the primary focus for advertising and sponsorship dollars is hunting based and until recently (last several years) even that was a minimal effort by those sponsors. Now I think all of us would agree that it's evolved into millions of dollars on hunting, thousands on target.

As a Pro Org we have other irons in the fire to deal with before this can be a done deal.... but, like I said it absolutely needs to be on our radar and not far at all from any planning meetings we have or goals we want to reach.

respectfully-

Chuck


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## FV Chuck

Hey Kendall.... 

This is what I found in the By-Laws.... looks like you should be getting points already - 


12. National Ranking:
12.1 Each period will last for one year and commence on January 1. Participation in
both the Indoor National Championship and the Outdoor National Championship is 
required for National Pro Points Ranking.
12.2 Pro points can be earned only at NFAA Professional Division sanctioned events.
12.3 The National, Sectional, and State Championships are automatically sanctioned
events. (Points may be earned only at a state field and/or state indoor championship 
tournament).
12.4 In the event that a state championship tournament does not recognize a pro
division, pro members will earn the point value applied to the position finished in
the adult division.
12.5 No tournament will be awarded a greater number of points than assigned to the
National Championships.
12.6 A pro member may earn no more than 25 pro points in “5-point” tournaments in a 
ranking period.NFAA
2010/2011
40
12.7 The following schedule of point values shall apply.
12.7.1 NATIONAL CHAMPIONSHIP- 200 possible points. Points distributed to
the first 40 places. Decrements of five (200-195-190-185, etc.)
12.7.2 SECTIONAL CHAMPIONSHIP – 100 possible points. Points distributed
to the first 20 places. Decrements of five (100-95-90-85-etc.)
12.7.3 STATE CHAMPIONSHIP – 25 possible points. Points distributed to the
first 5 places. Decrements of five (25-20-15-10-5).
12.7.4 OTHER NFAA PRO SANCTIONED TOURNAMENTS – Points will be
awarded based upon the cash awards available for members of the pro
division “as determined by the NFAA Council”.
CASH POINTS PLACES DISTRIBUTION
$100 to 999 5 1 5
1,000 to 1,999 10 2 10-5
2,000 to 2,999 15 3 15-10-5
3,000 to 3,999 20 4 20-15-10-5
4,000 to 4,999 25 5 25-20-15-10-5
5,000 to 5,999 30 6 30-25-20-15-10-5
6,000 to 6,999 35 7 35-30-25-20-15-10-5
7,000 to 7,999 40 8 40-35-30-25-20-15-10-5
8,000 to 8,999 45 9 45-40-35-30-25-20-15-10-5
9,000 to 9,999 50 10 50-45-40-35-30-25-20-15-10-5
$10,000 and above Point values will be negotiated.
12.7.5 The following are guidelines to determine the possible point accumulation 
for each pro member:
Indoor/Outdoor NFAA National - 200 Pts. Each
Indoor/Outdoor NFAA Sectionals - 100 Pts. Each
State Championship Indoor/Outdoor- 25 Pts. Each
Limit of (2) Tournaments (not above) - 100 Pts. Each
Limit of (2) Tournaments (not above) - 50 Pts. Each
Pros competing in National Pro-Am Tournaments, Indoor and
Outdoor, shall receive 25 pro points each. If an archer is
able to win all of above, he or she could accumulate a
possible total of 1000 point


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## ohioarcher300

If you have to qualify for the pro class and add some more shoots you can spread the prize money out. There doesnt have to be such a big gap between first place and the rest.


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## FV Chuck

Are you talking about just the Pro Points Money?


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## ohioarcher300

No just the pro class or redo the point system. 



FV Chuck said:


> Are you talking about just the Pro Points Money?


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## field14

Chuck,
Your post is dead on, and I understand it fully...BUT..>EASTON has definitely contributed millions of dollars on just their two recently new "facilities" that they have helped get off the ground, the one in Yankton, SD, and the one in Florida. I don't know the ins and outs of those two facilities and who really runs the show in either of them, but the money has been "provided" by the major sponsor EASTON.

I guess you "assumed" I was being disrespectful, but that wasn't my intent at all...my intent was really trying to get at the "WHY?" can the Euros get this sort of thing off the ground with what appears to be ample sponsorship and ample dollars to get the video and all the "bells & whistles", and yet we here in the USA, that have the technology, can't seem to get it off the ground?

WHY do our organizations appear to be dragging their feet with regard to this sort of exposure and promotion of the games of competitive archery?

How is it that the Euros have gotten the sponsors and the money for this series of OUTDOOR tournaments, and additionally the exceptional job they are able to do with the video streaming (delayed or not), that we can watch it clean over here in the USA once we know about the links. Yet the best we come up with is "hand-held" work done by a couple of dedicated people doing the best they can with what they have?? 
The Nimes tournament a couple of months ago was exciting and fun to watch. The outdoor events they had for the World Cups (or whatever they were over in Europe and Asia) that we had "video streaming on" were also impressive and very enjoyable to watch, delayed or not. The one in Denmark where they shot across the water was super impressive to watch.

Why can 'they' get it done? How do they get it done?

What besides the interest groups they have creates what appears to be a 'better environment' for the promotion of professional and world class archery "over there" that we can't seem to get over here?

IFAA, GNAS, FITA, and other "organizations" or "sub-organizations" exist in Europe too, but of course, for the short-term they are "target oriented"; but it won't be long until the 3-D takes hold over there as well.

"They" seemed to have found the thousands of dollars to get 'r dun; but yet we are still in the infancy of it, and apparently moving along at a snail's pace; I just don't quite understand how this can be for them and not for the USA.

No blame, but the questions are still Why? and How?

SOME of this, I strongly believe is that lots of people simply expect everything to fall in place by itself without "them" (being we archers) getting out and "pounding the bricks" and those of us that are sponsored ASKING our sponsors about it. We can't expect our orgs to do all the footwork and communications.
What can the ARCHERS do for the organizations so that the organizations can better support the archers? Ask not what the organizations can do for YOU the shooter/archer, but rather what YOU the shooter/archer can do for the organizations? A "shooter" trying to sell shirt space to a potential sponsor does NOT begin to answer that question, does it? You know about which I speak, correct?
Respectfully,
Tom D.


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## FV Chuck

OHIO-

It's two different animals.... The Pro Points system has really no bearing on payouts at events.

I'm guessing you mean create a qualification system to be a pro, right?... we dont have the numbers to be self sufficient already. I dont think putting a filter on it to make it harder is the proper approach yet. Down the road, yes.. now, no..we need numbers and numbers bring revenue.

VEGAS is a WAF event... also different animal, different books, everything...... now dont get me wrong I'm not defending it, it's as close as kissing cousins and sometimes it all seems too weird and clumsy but just trying to keep things separated here.

According to NFAA By-Laws there is a very specific payout chart for tournaments. It looks like this:

11.1 Shooters Place Distribution % Table:
Shooters Place Distribution %
1 - 3 1 100%
4 - 6 2 65-35%
7 - 9 3 50-30-20%
10 - 12 4 45.5-26-17-11.5%
13 - 15 5 41.9-23-15.5-10.7-8.9%
16 - 18 6 38.3-20.8-14.7-10.2-8.7-7.3%
19 - 21 7 35.3-19.2-14.1-9.9-8.5-7-6%
22 - 24 8 32.7-18.1-13.5-9.6-8.3-6.8-5.8-5.2%
25 - 27 9 30.6-17.1-13-9.3-8.1-6.7-5.7-5-4.5%
28 - 30 10 28.7-16.1-12.5-9.1-8-6.6-5.6-5-4.4-4%
31 - 33 11 27.1-15.1-12-8.9-7.9-6.5-5.5-5-4.4-4-3.6%
34 - 36 12 25.6-14.2-11.5-8.8-7.8-6.5-5.4-4.9-4.4-4-3.6-3.3%
37 - 39 13 24.2-13.4-11-8.7-7.7-6.4-5.4-4.9-4.4-4-3.6-3.3-3%
40 - 42 14 22.9-12.7-10.7-8.6-7.6-6.4-5.4-4.9-4.4-4-3.6-3.2-2.9-2.7%
43 - 45 15 21.8-12.1-10.3-8.5-7.5-6.3-5.4-4.9-4.4-4-3.6-3.2-2.9-2.6-2.5%
46 - 48 16 20.9-11.7-10-8.4-7.4-6.3-5.4-4.9-4.4-3.9-3.5-3.1-2.8-2.6-2.4-2.3%
49 - 51 17 20-11.4-9.7-8.3-7.3-6.2-5.3-4.8-4.3-3.9-3.5-3.1-2.8-2.6-2.4-2.3-2.1%
52 - 54 18 19.5-11-9.4-8.2-7.2-6.2-5.3-4.8-4.3-3.9-3.5-3.1-2.7-2.5-2.3-2.2-2-1.9%
55 - 57 19 19-10.8-9.2-8.1-7.1-6.1-5.2-4.7-4.2-3.8-3.4-3-2.7-2.5-2.3-2.2-2-1.9-1.8%
58 - 60 20 18.4-10.5-8.9-7.9-6.9-6.1-5.2-4.7-4.2-3.8-3.4-3-2.7-2.5-2.3-2.1-2-1.9-1.8-1.7%
61 - 63 21 18-10.3-8.7-7.8-6.9-6.1-5.2-4.6-4.2-3.7-3.3-2.9-2.6-2.4-2.2-2.1-2-1.9-1.8-1.7-1.6%
64 - 66 22 17.6-10.1-8.5-7.7-6.8-6-5.2-4.5-4.1-3.5-3-2.8-2.6-2.4-2.3-2.2-2.1-2-1.8-1.7-1.6-1.5%
67 - 69 23 17.2-9.9-8.3-7.6-6.7-5.9-5-4.4-4-3.3-2.9-2.7-2.6-2.4-2.3-2.2-2.1-2-1.9-1.8-1.7-1.6-1.5%
70 - 72 24 16.8-9.8-8.2-7.5-6.6-5.8-4.9-4.3-3.9-3.1-2.9-2.7-2.6-2.4-2.3-2.2-2.1-2-1.9-1.8-1.7-1.6-1.5-1.4%
73 - 75 25 16.5-9.7-8.1-7.4-6.5-5.7-4.8-4.2-3.8-3-2.8-2.7-2.6-2.4-2.3-2.2-2.1-2-1.9-1.8-1.7-1.6-1.5-1.4-1.3%
76 - 78 26 16.2-9.5-7.9-7.2-6.3-5.5-4.6-4-3.1-2.9-2.8-2.7-2.6-2.5-2.4-2.3-2.2-2.1-2-1.9-1.8-1.7-1.6-1.5-1.4-1.3%
79 - 81 27 16-9.4-7.7-7-6.1-5.3-4.4-3.8-3.3-3-2.8-2.7-2.6-2.5-2.4-2.3-2.2-2.1-2-1.9-1.8-1.7-1.6-1.5-1.4-1.3-1.2%
82 - 84 28 15.9-9.3-7.6-6.9-6-5.1-4.2-3.7-3.2-3-2.8-2.7-2.6-2.5-2.4-2.3-2.2-2.1-2-1.9-1.8-1.7-1.6-1.5-1.4-1.3-1.2-1.1%

You see we really are playing for our own money...it can be adjusted I think (not sure) but it takes action by the Pro Class and then the whole voting thing by the directors, council, etc... I dont know why they would oppose it in anyway but that's still the process. 
Other than that the only thing they really guarantee is $6000 for the Indoor, and $6000 for the outdoor.... that's it.
Doing some quick math.... we as a class are not even generating enough from our dues to cover the 12K they are paying out at the 2 National events....to do so using the current rate we need 685 Pros all paying their dues. I dont know what the actual to date number is for paid Pro Members.

Some of the other provisions in the by-laws make it pretty hard to recruit or secure additional sponsorship dollars because of they way they are written. This is an area that the next Pro Chair will need to address and work on. It will be contentious at times I'm sure but honestly I believe I could get some changes made if it's approached in a decent manner.

As for the money pot and how it's funded.... it breaks down like this:.... the only way to add to it would be to raise the rates or add a ton of members. 

The NFAA Professional fees being $75.00 per member for the calendar year. The following guidelines will be used in disbursing membership dues:
National Indoor Championship Prize Fund $17.50
National Field Championship Prize Fund 17.50
Sectional Indoor Championship Prize Fund 5.00
Sectional Field Championship Prize Fund 5.00
Pro Point Prize Fund 10.00
Tournament Guarantee Fund 2.50
NFAA Administration Cost 2.50
General Expense Fund 15.00
Total $75.00

-respectfully

Chuck


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## FV Chuck

Tom -

I didnt assume anything about your post. It was short and had no meat like the one you just put up...thanks for rewriting it I know your more than capable of it. 
FWIW I'm not a fan of the us vs. them or the "euros" or "them over there" vs. over here comparison either. As if they are less deserving or less important than we. We are all archers, everywhere Tom, one family.... maybe this unity, one mind, one goal thing is working outside our borders, who knows.

For starters I know as much as the next guy about the supposed Easton deal and what they did or didnt do. Have they contributed millions?...Do you know this to be true?... It's MILLIONS???.. is it a managed fund over the next 20-30-50 years or did they just snuggle up to Bruce and write him a big fat check?....I have zero idea man... zero. And I'm not sure it makes a difference really. I've heard all sorts of tales about who got what and how much and on and on and on...
I'll tell you what we got. 2 of the most amazing training centers built for archery in the country. 

As for the sponsorship etc.... I would wager 2 yrs salary that they got together, formed a business plan, made some rules, laid down some framework, stuck to a format, stuck to the rules no matter what, and went out and sold it. FITA my friend is connected to Millions of dollars for Olympics....THAT is where you make money on sponsors. We cant even get people to wear slacks on the line and you really want to sit here and blame the Org?... What the hell are they going to sell Tom?.. 200 guys shooting for an indoor title.. 12 - YES 12! shooting for the outdoor National Pro Title. It's embarrassing, we dont have a right to go ask for that kind of money....

You fail to grasp the reality of cultural differences.The business of Archery in Europe and Asia is not like anything you've seen here. 

The snails pace you're holding on to is not reality either. If you'll drop back a season or two AT actually had amazing coverage of Vegas. This year as I understand it a deal could not be reached between AT and WAF for coverage so we had none. 

The long and short of it is this... we are but a few thousand across one of the largest countries on the planet. They are 10's of thousands in on specific region that is roughly 1/3 maybe 1/2 at most our size... financially we are a losing proposition unless we can form some unity, some direction, and some self governance.
I was told once that in Vegas we might get 5000-7000 bodies through the doors counting families, guests, shooters etc.... as a comparison in Paris there are almost 10000 archers of some sort. I cant verify it but it caomes from a voice that has been there to shoot several times whos very knowlegeable in the industry so I took it at face value.
It's a simple rule of math/mass marketing.... If I'm Kia Motors do you really honestly thing I'm going to sponsor the outdoor nationals and send a film crew for a couple hundred shooters? ( a whopping 17 combined in PMFS/PFFS - there was one more Pro Male <11> than in Master Senior Barebow..<10>, really? )

Your last paragraph is prophetic and rings very true...... can you answer any of your own questions for us?

Chuck


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## field14

FV Chuck said:


> Tom -
> 
> I didnt assume anything about your post. It was short and had no meat like the one you just put up...thanks for rewriting it I know your more than capable of it.
> FWIW I'm not a fan of the us vs. them or the "euros" or "them over there" vs. over here comparison either. As if they are less deserving or less important than we. We are all archers, everywhere Tom, one family.... maybe this unity, one mind, one goal thing is working outside our borders, who knows.
> 
> For starters I know as much as the next guy about the supposed Easton deal and what they did or didnt do. Have they contributed millions?...Do you know this to be true?... It's MILLIONS???.. is it a managed fund over the next 20-30-50 years or did they just snuggle up to Bruce and write him a big fat check?....I have zero idea man... zero. And I'm not sure it makes a difference really. I've heard all sorts of tales about who got what and how much and on and on and on...
> I'll tell you what we got. 2 of the most amazing training centers built for archery in the country.
> 
> As for the sponsorship etc.... I would wager 2 yrs salary that they got together, formed a business plan, made some rules, laid down some framework, stuck to a format, stuck to the rules no matter what, and went out and sold it. FITA my friend is connected to Millions of dollars for Olympics....THAT is where you make money on sponsors. We cant even get people to wear slacks on the line and you really want to sit here and blame the Org?... What the hell are they going to sell Tom?.. 200 guys shooting for an indoor title.. 12 - YES 12! shooting for the outdoor National Pro Title. It's embarrassing, we dont have a right to go ask for that kind of money....
> 
> You fail to grasp the reality of cultural differences.The business of Archery in Europe and Asia is not like anything you've seen here.
> 
> The snails pace you're holding on to is not reality either. If you'll drop back a season or two AT actually had amazing coverage of Vegas. This year as I understand it a deal could not be reached between AT and WAF for coverage so we had none.
> 
> The long and short of it is this... we are but a few thousand across one of the largest countries on the planet. They are 10's of thousands in on specific region that is roughly 1/3 maybe 1/2 at most our size... financially we are a losing proposition unless we can form some unity, some direction, and some self governance.
> I was told once that in Vegas we might get 5000-7000 bodies through the doors counting families, guests, shooters etc.... as a comparison in Paris there are almost 10000 archers of some sort. I cant verify it but it caomes from a voice that has been there to shoot several times whos very knowlegeable in the industry so I took it at face value.
> It's a simple rule of math/mass marketing.... If I'm Kia Motors do you really honestly thing I'm going to sponsor the outdoor nationals and send a film crew for a couple hundred shooters? ( a whopping 17 combined in PMFS/PFFS - there was one more Pro Male <11> than in Master Senior Barebow..<10>, really? )
> 
> Your last paragraph is prophetic and rings very true...... can you answer any of your own questions for us?
> 
> Chuck


Chuck,
If I could answer my own questions, I may well not have asked them in the first place, haha. 
Why is it that "we" have an apparent rift in our archery games here in the USA while other countries don't apparently (at least from our perspective and what we see, hear, and read) have that rift and "we vs they" problem?

I do admit that we don't really utilize the various target archery "rounds" the way they are used elsewhere on the planet...such as approximately 90 different "types of round" that utilize just the outdoor FITA face alone? We here, are pretty two-dimensional in the utilization of that target face...The 900 round, and the FITA round. We used to shoot the York round, but I don't know if the old York, PA tournament is even held anymore.
We are pretty much one-dimensional on our field shooting too..>NFAA rounds, but rarely IFAA and almost never FITA field rounds here.

Our strong suit, IMHO is our NFAA indoor round (boring for the PROS or not, it has survived the test of time for the average joes), and the Vegas round in the triangular target pattern. 

The European F2F is grabbing hold over here, and I think it is a great format, although I haven't toed the line to shoot it. But those are not within the scope of this thread.

Can't answer the real "why" or "how" that is working for the other countries. Every time I call the kettle a bit more black than people want to hear or read, I get crucified for "bashing"; If I bring up Consistency, or especially 'dress code' is akin to people thinking I'm giving them a root canal or proto-exam or something; let alone mentioning setting the rules and enforcing them explicitly regardless of the age, gender, or notoriety of said archer.

ALL of the above could be having implications for lack of sponsorship. Then comes those that are wanting said sponsorships and major contributors, so there is more money payout seemingly unwilling to get out and pound the bricks and use some salesmanship to help get the ball rolling. This won't come by them coming to us, you know?

I do a ton of that here for our Presley's Shoot, and one thing I've learned to ask...."What do you have to lose in ASKING and PROMOTING?" If you don't ask, you don't receive, and the worst they can say is "NO"....

Quite frankly, in our little Presley's Midwest Open tournament, we get a very LOW percentage of "NO's" from potential purse sponsors and/or door prize contributors when we ask and promote our tournament. However, we do get out and pound the bricks and don't expect them to come to us. 

Are we as successful as we would like to be with this approach? Certainly not. We aren't failing in those efforts either. Just ask those that attend our small 208 maximum shooter tournament each December. 94 total shooters is the norm for our CHAMPIONSHIP DIVISION (Money shooters). We get 54 or so in the Men's Championship Division alone, and pay out 17 places. We do NOT have a "guaranteed purse" for 1st place in any of the Championship Classes; just not the way our committee wanted to go with the payouts in the Championship Division. Amateurs are not permitted to shoot for money at our tournament. But our total payout for those 94 shooters that register in the Championship Division is over $12,000 PLUS the Overall Championship Bowcases and any door prizes that they may receive as pluses. Not bad for a two-day event that is space limited.
field14 (Tom D.)


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## Brad HT

If there is one thing I have learned in the last few years about archery in general, is that the marking and promotion SUCKS. Most of the clubs claim that they promote etc, but it's minimal at best. Since I work in marketing, I have been doing everything I can for my club to help promote, but sadly they don't think they need it....

It's sad... 

B~


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## FV Chuck

Careful Brad if you have a Pro Card you might get drafted!.... LOL

But your right.... it's a challenge. Companies over the last couple of years have really been stepping up (See Tru-Ball as prime example) but the Orgs are still a bit behind. Hopefully we can get some new things going.

Chuck


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## 60Xbulldog60X

Hey Chuck, I see you are digging up some good information. As far as the pro points, do these go toward the Shooter of the Year Awards or are they just for Pro Ranking?

Thanks, 

Kendall


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## FV Chuck

Kendall - 

As I understand it (willing to be corrected and educated here).... this system currently is for "Pro Points" and the related payout & SOY award only. I dont believe there is a current NFAA Pro Ranking system .... but there sure needs to be!


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## ohioarcher300

You are a good example of this. The Pros don’t know how the system works. When I ask, nobody can tell me how it works. The system needs to be redone and then promoted.


60Xbulldog60X said:


> Hey Chuck, I see you are digging up some good information. As far as the pro points, do these go toward the Shooter of the Year Awards or are they just for Pro Ranking?
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Kendall


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## FV Chuck

Ohio -

For sure it needs to be on the next Pro Chairs to-do list....I fully expect if I'm elected to get this type of thing in place.
I've given it quite a bit of thought and am trying to flesh out a good plan that I think will reward archers right down the line... we still have other really important things that need to be done as well before this can be put in place but for sure it is on my highlight list.


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## CHPro

Sorry, but the Pro Points do not have anything to do with SOY. They really are a type of ranking system. You get points for how you finish at the Indoor & Outdoor Nationals, Indoor & Outdoor Sectionals, NFAA sanctioned Indoor and Outdoor Field State events, participation in the ProAms at both the Indoor and Outdoor Nationals and then there are some points available at tournaments who sanction their shoot for NFAA Pro Points (Badger ProAm, Big Sky Open, possibly the Iowa ProAm, etc.). At the end of the tournament season after all Pro Points tournaments are completed the archers are ranked according to how many points they have amassed during the year. As previously noted in an earlier thread, $10 of your $75 pro dues goes into the Pro Points Prize Purse Fund. Payouts are awarded to the archers based on the Pro Payout schedule, also posted in an earlier thread. And you must have shot both the Indoor and Outdoor Nationals to be eligible for a payout. I also believe, though would need to confirm, a portion of the NFAA Pro Points sanctioning fee paid in by orgs to have a tournament sanctioned for NFAA Pro Points (i.e. the Badger ProAm pays in money to the NFAA to sanction their shoot for Pro Points) is also added to the Points Fund. Not a lot of money involved, but usually if you are ranked in the upper 1/3 of the Pros in your Division based on these Pro Points and you competed in both the Indoor and Outdoor Nationals you can at least get enough of a payback to cover your Pro dues for the next year.

Just to provide, hopefully, a little bit of clarity around the NFAA Pro Points. It used to be the Pro Points really was the Pro ranking system more or less. Results were published in the Archery magazine periodically so people knew where they or their favorite Pros were currently ranked. The Pro Points Champions were provided exposure in the Archery magazine in an article, interviews, photos, etc.. This all seemed to start going downhill and has been trumped in recent years with the various SOY awards (not same as the Pro Points) and de-emphasis on Sectional and State tournaments by various Pros....quick history lesson as well !

JB >>-------->


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## FV Chuck

THANKS JEFF!!!

I think I just need to follow you with a notebook for awhile... LOL 
I had no other way that I could think of to go look it up really... Diane was at Az Cup and I really didnt want to bother her while on a shooting weekend with this kind of stuff...All I could find was in the ByLaws...

Man I'd really like to see a return to the "old days" when the ranking was posted, fought for and really meant something...it would be cool to see whos on top and whos making a charge etc...

Do we know who the keeper of the info is?... is it a Pro Chair thing or an NFAA thing?

I'm sure we could get GRIV to start putting in the Archery Magazine

Chuck

Chuck


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## CHPro

Paperwork for Pro Points awards is turned into HQ by the Sectional Pro Reps for Sectionals and the State Pro Reps for State results. HQ is pretty much on point for this at this time and with everything else they have to do I'm not sure overall results are kept up with any regularity until the end of the season. Possibly something the Pro Division should consider taking charge of. Wouldn't take that much to throw all the Pros' names in an excel worksheet and have HQ forward the results to an individual in charge updating the results after each event. I believe Diane tried to get this going again and kept more up to date such that the membership had an idea prior to the onset of the Outdoor Nationals of where they were ranked and what it would take to hold position or possibly move up during Natls.

>>------->


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## FV Chuck

Jeff- 

Totally agreed on the spread sheet thing..... I'd like to see GRIV post it in every edition of NFAA Mag. We should work on it again.

You mention an interesting point in your note.... State Pro Reps. I mentioned it in an earlier post somewhere but was told there are no such thing. I also searched diligently in the By-Laws, thought I saw it one time and then could never find it again... do we have State Pro reps?... I honestly think we should but I cant find much on it.

I think a State Pro rep would be a crucial way to get info, share info and really work towards some common goals of the division


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## bigGP

The reason Archery "Appears" to be thriving more in Europe has a couple facets (Don't be mislead or think its otherwise but the archery Pro events over seas don't pay squat compared to what we make here in the states)…………#1-How many different types of archery do they shoot?? Oh yeah thats right like 3. Indoor and outdoor FITA & FITA field. You don't see many 3D shoots. They haven't diluted their archery with so many different types.#2-Look at how many classes they have? You don't see the 70 classes that we have here.NFAA,IBO,ASA have way to many classes so everyone can feel like they can win or move to a class with 1 person to win a silver bowl.How can we expect our sport to succeed when we have it so diluted that people actually shoot in a class BY THEMSELVES for a national championship???? #3- They actually care about the sport over there. They make sure the sport maintains its integrity. They don't tolerate the things that happen here.Yes they have taken the steps to televise it and they where able to put agendas aside for the betterment of the sport………….Guess how this happened? It had NOTHING to do with the orgs or manufactures. They set up the events and promotions in conjunction with the shoots/org and the sponsors came. Like Darin said the PGA and the Tour are not the same just like the PRO archery series don't put on the shoots but rather work with the shoot to televise and promote it while maintaining the creative control they need.

The pro points SHOULD go towards SOY but thats pretty hard to do with so many conflicting shoots in this country. IF we could get to that point i would be all in favor of making state shoots go towards SOY.


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## FV Chuck

Greg -

This has the potential to be a very long winded response so I cut right to the meat and hopefully not sound short or like I'm not empathetic of the situation. 

Archery overseas may or may not pay what it does here... I would actually like to do a good comparison of that before I agree with you...I think we might be surprised.
Although I group the World Cup in there and last I checked winning one of those was a decent payday.... _(quoted from FITA Press release Sept 24 2009 Denmark) ""The athletes have been qualified based on their top three results out of the four World Cup stages in Santo Domingo (DOM), Porec (CRO), Antalya (TUR) and Shanghai (CHN). The semifinal matches will be shot in the morning and final matches in the afternoon in front of HRH the Crown Prince Frederik, the Culture Minister of Denmark Carina CHRISTENSEN and other dignitaries. A total prize money of more than 150,000 USD is at stake.""_
I dont think we have anything here that has a purse of 150K do we?

I also think there may have been a little more cooperation with the orgs than we might be aware of or be willing to admit..... IFAA teamed up with Alternative.tv for their Pro Series... and FITA has a retail brand.. World Cup
Neither one of those work unless the Org goes along with it in some fashion...

Take a look at this press release - 
http://www.archery.org/index.asp?m_id=836&cnt_id=3873

_"(excerpt)" ........Represented by the new, dynamic logo, the World Archery brand unifies all of the activities, events, and members of the federation under one brand name to be centrally promoted by FITA and its Continental Associations. The FITA entity and logo remain valid as the producer of this brand. The World Archery logo will be used at upcoming events such as the Youth, Para-Archery and World Archery Championships......_

There is NO Question that FITA is looking at this as a business and is finding ways to fund it. They've boiled it down to a few select classes for the elite money game but still...they got their finger on the right button

The care and integrity in other countries I think can be traced to the cultural differences in the way they approach it. In the US I believe we've long gone after the "hunting" market... keep in mind most states didn't even have bow hunting regulations or allowances until the 50's and 60's...so we are kind of behind the curve there.... by comparison World cup events started in 1931... no compounds until 1995- only 16 years ago!

The elite have always had very limited classes... your either in our your out. So on one hand I agree with the "trophy for everyone objection" but the roots of the orgs still allow for a multitude of classes and divisions to foster the growth of the sport...it is incumbent on us as Pro's and the elite of the industry to make sure that growth continues. Take a few of them and show them other options should they want to go forward. 

Example ?... Putting 7 million kids through the NASP program should be an eye popper for anyone...it's a marketing persons wet dream ... kids, family, safe sport,...on and on and on...yet seemingly it gets overlooked every year.... I just dont get it.

ProArchery is a private business, from an "idea" point of view they nailed it!... much like the tournament series I sponsor... Jeremy is a promoter..(DY Promotions - Damn Yankee on AT) he made it happen... he got sponsors to pay cash or donate prizes, charged the shooters to shoot and they won cash... small time by comparison but I think he paid out close to 2000$ in only 2 classes (open or BH, no mens or womens separation) over 3 events, and no one lower than 3rd got a cent. there were close to 70 shooters at each, and we had more card carrying nfaa pros at each leg then we did at the NYS-NFAA Indoor OR Outdoor Championships... I'd call that a success.

Long story short, I dont think it's possible to have one without the other, but.... it must be possible to control one's own destiny when possible.

As for points... I'd like to see it count.

RS
Chuck


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## ohioarcher300

When something changes here I hope its for growth and to make things better. That it just doenst benifit a select few amount of people.


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## FV Chuck

ohioarcher300 said:


> When something changes here I hope its for growth and to make things better. That it just doenst benifit a select few amount of people.


That'll be my plan....


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## bigGP

Chuck, The international game that was referred to was the Pro series of events people watch on TV (3 of them i think this year). That game has low payout compared to US tourneys. The WC events do have a better payout but correct me if i am wrong but the $150k payout is over the entire year in prize money and contingency??? correct? If this is the case one could make an argument for the ASA or IBO or all of the NFAA/WAF events with a total amount could they not? Its great for their ad campaign but the fact still remains Wayne Pearson had people shooting for $50k PER EVENT not to long ago? Thats REAL jack right there.


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## bigGP

ohioarcher300 said:


> When something changes here I hope its for growth and to make things better. That it just doenst benifit a select few amount of people.


If you look at every other sport on earth the Elite of any game not only benefit the most but work the hardest and put the most on the line. Is there any example's of a sport that became a success both financially and publicly (TV=$) from the bottom up? If so please show us. Every sport out there has some sort of Pro rank or class and that class makes all the sacrifices to put said sport on the stage that will draw the attention. As with any other sport The amateurs/fans do buy the products that make it all work but i don't recall seeing any Nike/Adidas/Under Armour/Old Spice/Rolex/Buick/Ford/Nascar etc ads with spokes persons from the local club or team??? They pay the VERY best ALOT of jack to validate the product.The highest level of competition in ANY sport gets the highest amount of jack and publicity for a reason. Why do archers think our sport should be any different? That recipe has worked for every other sport?

If you don't mind me asking…………What is your name ohioarcher300?


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## FV Chuck

bigGP said:


> Chuck, The international game that was referred to was the Pro series of events people watch on TV (3 of them i think this year). That game has low payout compared to US tourneys. The WC events do have a better payout but correct me if i am wrong but the $150k payout is over the entire year in prize money and contingency??? correct? If this is the case one could make an argument for the ASA or IBO or all of the NFAA/WAF events with a total amount could they not? Its great for their ad campaign but the fact still remains Wayne Pearson had people shooting for $50k PER EVENT not to long ago? Thats REAL jack right there.


Yeah for sure the Pro series does not pay loads and loads, but I think he's on the right track....
World Cup... I'm diggin to find better answers there....nothing yet. You could easily be right. Just went with their press release statement.
Wayne had it figured out... I wish we could get his recipe.

Point being though, unless we get his notebook, get him to come back or another one like him to come along.... we have a tough row to hoe. 

Chuck


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## The Swami

So who's the chair? I never got a ballet and so I didn't vote.

I've been a lousy pro, I can't afford to fly all over the country anymore. Did we have to be at one of these tournaments to vote?


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## CHPro

Swami, you haven't missed anything yet. Nominations are/were taken at the Indoor Natl Pro meeting (Chuck Cooley, Reo Wilde and Jimmy Butts). Ballots should be mailed sometime shortly after 6/1 or thereabouts and you'll get something like 2 weeks to submit your ballot. I think last time around e-mail submission of your selection was also permitted - don't know if things will be set up exactly the same or not.

So you haven't missed much yet!

>>------->


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## The Swami

CHPro said:


> Swami, you haven't missed anything yet. Nominations are/were taken at the Indoor Natl Pro meeting (Chuck Cooley, Reo Wilde and Jimmy Butts). Ballots should be mailed sometime shortly after 6/1 or thereabouts and you'll get something like 2 weeks to submit your ballot. I think last time around e-mail submission of your selection was also permitted - don't know if things will be set up exactly the same or not.
> 
> So you haven't missed much yet!
> 
> >>------->


Cool, I would hate to think the $85 I spent buying a vote was wasted.


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## bigGP

I have never received a ballot to vote for the Pro chair since i joined the Pro division in 2006 so i need some input here please? 

In the past does the candidate or candidates speak out about what they want to get done or is this position just a popularity contest ??? I certainly hope it isn't? Is there ever any debate? Is it filled by default because nobody wants it or what?? I have seen that Mr,Cooley is being very vocal about what he would like to get done and some of how he wants to do it? Seems to me thats very good and shows he really cares about??? Or maybe not i am just asking? Is he going outside the normal MO for this election by actually TRYING to get elected? I know Mrs,Watson busted her rear to get things done and laid a TON of ground work for the next pro chair……. so wouldn't it be good to know what direction these people want to go? Ignoring what Diane has done or not learning from her would seem an injustice considering how hard she worked?

Or is it just me? (That has happened before) LMAO


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## gcab

bigGP said:


> If you look at every other sport on earth the Elite of any game not only benefit the most but work the hardest and put the most on the line. Is there any example's of a sport that became a success both financially and publicly (TV=$) from the bottom up? If so please show us. Every sport out there has some sort of Pro rank or class and that class makes all the sacrifices to put said sport on the stage that will draw the attention. As with any other sport The amateurs/fans do buy the products that make it all work but i don't recall seeing any Nike/Adidas/Under Armour/Old Spice/Rolex/Buick/Ford/Nascar etc ads with spokes persons from the local club or team??? They pay the VERY best ALOT of jack to validate the product.The highest level of competition in ANY sport gets the highest amount of jack and publicity for a reason. Why do archers think our sport should be any different? That recipe has worked for every other sport?
> 
> If you don't mind me asking…………What is your name ohioarcher300?



I'm just curious.. not looking for a fight. But what classifies as Elite? A Pro that pays the pro fee and says they are a pro, or a pro that wins tournaments, or places top 20? You mentioned the Elite should benefit.. but what is Elite? You also mentioned they work the hardest. But working and getting results is 2 different things. You said you went pro in 2006. I started shooting-completely new - in 2008. We both shot the same score at Louisville. So how does that make you Elite but I am not just because I didn't just pay the pro fee? Again, not trying to start a fight, but why is it that someone that pays the money is Elite and has a voice in a MEMBERSHIP based organization, but someone that doesn't pay the extra money and gets same result has no voice in MEMBERSHIP based organization?

And you are wrong about sponsors not providing for what you call not in the Elite group, or the highest level. The local youth football league got all uniforms and equipment provided to them this year but Adidas and Under Armour. When I was in high school, the golf team got sponsored by Calloway. I'm pretty sure college sports get equipment provided or sponsored for.

Everyone starts somewhere, and it is never at the top. So to limit the direction or any changes for a class to just what you call Elite... those that pay extra money except a select 5 or 6 that truly are Elite... that will be made up of those that are "non Elite"... doesn't really promote growth. It may pad the pockets for a few that win, which deserve to be paid more for a tournament, but it's not going to benefit the organization as a whole. 

Just my thoughts.


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## bigGP

gcab said:


> I'm just curious.. not looking for a fight. But what classifies as Elite? A Pro that pays the pro fee and says they are a pro, or a pro that wins tournaments, or places top 20? You mentioned the Elite should benefit.. but what is Elite? You also mentioned they work the hardest. But working and getting results is 2 different things. You said you went pro in 2006. I started shooting-completely new - in 2008. We both shot the same score at Louisville. So how does that make you Elite but I am not just because I didn't just pay the pro fee? Again, not trying to start a fight, but why is it that someone that pays the money is Elite and has a voice in a MEMBERSHIP based organization, but someone that doesn't pay the extra money and gets same result has no voice in MEMBERSHIP based organization?
> 
> And you are wrong about sponsors not providing for what you call not in the Elite group, or the highest level. The local youth football league got all uniforms and equipment provided to them this year but Adidas and Under Armour. When I was in high school, the golf team got sponsored by Calloway. I'm pretty sure college sports get equipment provided or sponsored for.
> 
> Everyone starts somewhere, and it is never at the top. So to limit the direction or any changes for a class to just what you call Elite... those that pay extra money except a select 5 or 6 that truly are Elite... that will be made up of those that are "non Elite"... doesn't really promote growth. It may pad the pockets for a few that win, which deserve to be paid more for a tournament, but it's not going to benefit the organization as a whole.
> 
> Just my thoughts.



Being a member of ANY Organization by no means entitles you to have a say in everything contained in it?? LOL Do you get to decide what the women do or do they? (If your not a woman).If your not a member of THAT class then it doesn't effect you, and until it effects you its not your concern.
This year was a debacle for LOTS of people in Louisville for lots of reasons. If you are comparing your score to mine this year then you arent getting the point.I shot 119's the last 2 years in a row but anyway. A PIN shooter shot 120 X's and ALL of the Pros but 3 and all but 1 Am did NOT? Does that make the Pin shooter a better shooter then all of us? 1 tournament an elite shooter not make. ONLY the elite shooters should benefit?? Come on man

The very best at ANY sport work harder then the rest,Have more at RISK,some are trying to pay bills in the sport, Are held to a higher standard because of their shooting ability ( IE- you comparing our scores this year and thinking that means anything),Are generally way more competitive personality types, Enjoy competing against the very best on earth,are paid to be there and perform,I could go on and on but thats why they are better. You look at ONE score of mine and compare yourself to THAT? That in itself is one of the fundamental flaws in our sport.How do you think you would hold up shooting for $20000 a weekend? I played lots of sports my entire life so i am familiar with PRODUCT SPONSORSHIPS very well. Do any of those companies you mentioned PAY large amounts of money to those little league teams or high school teams? Heck no. Do they lavish gifts and large contracts on the coaches? WHAT THEY DO IS………. Have scouts and coaches and agents and all kinds of parents trying to get any lil kid with above average skill noticed. I have first hand knowledge of a 8 year old basketball player whose parents have ALREADY been talked to by NIKE and college recruiters. Haven't you ever heard of these HIGH SCHOOL kids changing high schools so they can get noticed? This is BIG BUSINESS and its all about laying the ground work and fertilizing from the top down.Pro-Semi pro-Farm leugues-AAU-College-summer league-high school-junior high and the all star traveling teams and if you don't think every shoe/clothing company and college isn't looking over all that with a microscope your not paying attention. Now the NCAA is a different beast all together as most already know. 
What you are so loosely calling "Providing" is simply a product DONATION and lots of companies do it for lots of reasons.You are seriously confused on the difference between what these companies do for little league teams and major league teams. Does Alex Rodriguez where a glove with some high school kids name on it? I am looking at a UA catalog right this second and i don't see any little league or high school or prep or whatever people in it? I see PRO'S. Real ones. Thats why all the product you see donated and all the shoes you buy and cloths and balls are endorsed and sponsored by big time PRO'S? You know the ones on the posters and cards and shoes and TV commercials…….You get the point.
Who is on the release or arrows or target or range finder or whatever you have for your hunting rig? YOU? your hunting buddy? The guy down the road that kills deer every year? NOPE. Its Michael Waddell or Lee and Tiff or Levi Morgan or yeah you get the point. 
In order for any sport to make it to the next level there has to be a PRODUCT.The product is NOT the skill of given sport.Its the Top athletes of said sport. Look at Nascar or any other sport on earth and the very best are showcased /marketed/promoted and paid accordingly for the extra work/pressure etc. Do you think MJ or LeBron or Kobe or Alex Rodriguez or gets paid because the Little league/dirt track,playground or recreational league made it?? They get paid because they are the best because THATS who the People at the recreational level of any sport look up to and follow/Buy merchandise they use and endorse and PRO's are who companies USE to market & Advertise with. Archers however have a skewed view of how our sport should work. You get to warm up,shoot and hangout next to the very best archers on earth and you don't even recognize that and you take it for granted? As i posted earlier do you think ANY other amateur or recreational participant gets to warm up and shoot next to or WITH Tiger? or Kobe? Or Alex? HAHAHAHAHAHA Tiger would throw a BF if a 30 handicapper was in his group at a tournament? LMAO Or if Kobe had to warm up and share the court with some High school kids before the finals?

As to your comment about getting the same results so thats all that matters? Does the local club player think he should be on tour when he shoots a better score then Tiger ONCE because Tiger went shankapotomuss or was late cuz his HO held him up? Or when an NBA player misses a free throw and you don't you should be in the NBA? If Adam Vinateri shanks a 30 yard field goal and the guy at the park doesn't ? Bring him up he is ready for the NFL! I don't know who you are or what kind of archery you shoot but i WELCOME you to come shoot with some PRO's at a national tournament for $12000-$25000 DOLLARS and lets see how things wash out? I appreciate your questions but your attitude towards our sport and the level at which it is performed at its best shows how little you understand about it. Please PM me your location and i would be more then happy to find a PRO in your area so you can get some tutelage. Its rather difficult to find a good archery coach these days (But go to ANY golf course and there is a Golf PRO on site hmmmmmm).

Good luck with your archery and I look forward to seeing you on the line shooting with the PRO's next year.


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## ohioarcher300

That’s why I still say there needs to be a qualifying system to become a pro and not one were you get voted in by other pro. You have to shoot your way in. Also a little more recognition for the past champions would be a help. 


bigGP said:


> Being a member of ANY Organization by no means entitles you to have a say in everything contained in it?? LOL Do you get to decide what the women do or do they? (If your not a woman).If your not a member of THAT class then it doesn't effect you, and until it effects you its not your concern.
> This year was a debacle for LOTS of people in Louisville for lots of reasons. If you are comparing your score to mine this year then you arent getting the point.I shot 119's the last 2 years in a row but anyway. A PIN shooter shot 120 X's and ALL of the Pros but 3 and all but 1 Am did NOT? Does that make the Pin shooter a better shooter then all of us? 1 tournament an elite shooter not make. ONLY the elite shooters should benefit?? Come on man
> 
> The very best at ANY sport work harder then the rest,Have more at RISK,some are trying to pay bills in the sport, Are held to a higher standard because of their shooting ability ( IE- you comparing our scores this year and thinking that means anything),Are generally way more competitive personality types, Enjoy competing against the very best on earth,are paid to be there and perform,I could go on and on but thats why they are better. You look at ONE score of mine and compare yourself to THAT? That in itself is one of the fundamental flaws in our sport.How do you think you would hold up shooting for $20000 a weekend? I played lots of sports my entire life so i am familiar with PRODUCT SPONSORSHIPS very well. Do any of those companies you mentioned PAY large amounts of money to those little league teams or high school teams? Heck no. Do they lavish gifts and large contracts on the coaches? WHAT THEY DO IS………. Have scouts and coaches and agents and all kinds of parents trying to get any lil kid with above average skill noticed. I have first hand knowledge of a 8 year old basketball player whose parents have ALREADY been talked to by NIKE and college recruiters. Haven't you ever heard of these HIGH SCHOOL kids changing high schools so they can get noticed? This is BIG BUSINESS and its all about laying the ground work and fertilizing from the top down.Pro-Semi pro-Farm leugues-AAU-College-summer league-high school-junior high and the all star traveling teams and if you don't think every shoe/clothing company and college isn't looking over all that with a microscope your not paying attention. Now the NCAA is a different beast all together as most already know.
> What you are so loosely calling "Providing" is simply a product DONATION and lots of companies do it for lots of reasons.You are seriously confused on the difference between what these companies do for little league teams and major league teams. Does Alex Rodriguez where a glove with some high school kids name on it? I am looking at a UA catalog right this second and i don't see any little league or high school or prep or whatever people in it? I see PRO'S. Real ones. Thats why all the product you see donated and all the shoes you buy and cloths and balls are endorsed and sponsored by big time PRO'S? You know the ones on the posters and cards and shoes and TV commercials…….You get the point.
> Who is on the release or arrows or target or range finder or whatever you have for your hunting rig? YOU? your hunting buddy? The guy down the road that kills deer every year? NOPE. Its Michael Waddell or Lee and Tiff or Levi Morgan or yeah you get the point.
> In order for any sport to make it to the next level there has to be a PRODUCT.The product is NOT the skill of given sport.Its the Top athletes of said sport. Look at Nascar or any other sport on earth and the very best are showcased /marketed/promoted and paid accordingly for the extra work/pressure etc. Do you think MJ or LeBron or Kobe or Alex Rodriguez or gets paid because the Little league/dirt track,playground or recreational league made it?? They get paid because they are the best because THATS who the People at the recreational level of any sport look up to and follow/Buy merchandise they use and endorse and PRO's are who companies USE to market & Advertise with. Archers however have a skewed view of how our sport should work. You get to warm up,shoot and hangout next to the very best archers on earth and you don't even recognize that and you take it for granted? As i posted earlier do you think ANY other amateur or recreational participant gets to warm up and shoot next to or WITH Tiger? or Kobe? Or Alex? HAHAHAHAHAHA Tiger would throw a BF if a 30 handicapper was in his group at a tournament? LMAO Or if Kobe had to warm up and share the court with some High school kids before the finals?
> 
> As to your comment about getting the same results so thats all that matters? Does the local club player think he should be on tour when he shoots a better score then Tiger ONCE because Tiger went shankapotomuss or was late cuz his HO held him up? Or when an NBA player misses a free throw and you don't you should be in the NBA? If Adam Vinateri shanks a 30 yard field goal and the guy at the park doesn't ? Bring him up he is ready for the NFL! I don't know who you are or what kind of archery you shoot but i WELCOME you to come shoot with some PRO's at a national tournament for $12000-$25000 DOLLARS and lets see how things wash out? I appreciate your questions but your attitude towards our sport and the level at which it is performed at its best shows how little you understand about it. Please PM me your location and i would be more then happy to find a PRO in your area so you can get some tutelage. Its rather difficult to find a good archery coach these days (But go to ANY golf course and there is a Golf PRO on site hmmmmmm).
> 
> Good luck with your archery and I look forward to seeing you on the line shooting with the PRO's next year.


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## field14

If the PROS want to be "elite", then some things have got to change. Let's STOP the "just pay your PRO dues, and you are a PRO. How's about some of these items:
1. QUALIFYING scores shot at TOURNAMENTS (selected tournaments) in order to be selected as a "Pro"
2. Sponsorship by a current Pro in good standing (that used to be there, don't know if it is now or not, or is being by-passed).
3. Maintenance of a level of prowess, or maintenance of a SCORING AVERAGE (not necessarily a top 20 finishing score, but just a MINIMUM "average" to maintain your PRO status.
4. TRAINING program for any new Pros that are brought in to the organization. Such things as proper dress, guidance of promotion of the sponsors and the organization (how to do it, what to do, what NOT to do)
5. MINIMUM requirements for attendance in order to maintain PRO status, such minimums as your STATE's Championships, your SECTIONAL Championship, Vegas, Indoor Nationals, Outdoor Nationals, and then add a few others as "recommended". Can list those as required to "qualify to maintain your Pro Card.
6. Training on the Code of Ethics, etc as it relates to conduct, dress, etc.

The "sponsors" of many of the Pros do require attendance at trade shows, and certain tournaments, but....they require that of "joes" that are on shooting staff as well.

Unfortunately, most all of the above used to be requirements for the "Old PAA", which has bee defunct for a number of years.

I'd venture a guess that a lot of what I mention above is part of what is in the works that "we joes" aren't privvy to, since according to "some" of the current Pros, we don't have a right to know. (they could be correct). However, what about the "joes" that have the goal of becoming an accepted PRO in the not-to-distant future? Don't they have a "right to know" what their dues are being paid for? Don't they have a right to know the REQUIREMENTS to become an accepted "Pro"? Don't they have the right to know what it takes to MAINTAIN their status as a card-carrying Pro? Who would just up and pay the fees and then find out what else is part of the "program" as an after-the fact discovery.

The PRO organization shouldn't be a secret, mystical entity of "elites" that are "better" than the rest of the archers, if you get my drift.....
Yeah, I know...I ain't a card carrying Pro so I"m not affected by all this...or am I (along with the rest of the DUES PAYING MEMBERSHIP of the NFAA). Since the PROS are getting things out of the NFAA....I sure would think paid up members have a right to know where that money is going, and what it is going for....
field14 (Tom D.)


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## ohioarcher300

Field I agree, I am glad you took the time to type everything I wanted to say



field14 said:


> If the PROS want to be "elite", then some things have got to change. Let's STOP the "just pay your PRO dues, and you are a PRO. How's about some of these items:
> 1. QUALIFYING scores shot at TOURNAMENTS (selected tournaments) in order to be selected as a "Pro"
> 2. Sponsorship by a current Pro in good standing (that used to be there, don't know if it is now or not, or is being by-passed).
> 3. Maintenance of a level of prowess, or maintenance of a SCORING AVERAGE (not necessarily a top 20 finishing score, but just a MINIMUM "average" to maintain your PRO status.
> 4. TRAINING program for any new Pros that are brought in to the organization. Such things as proper dress, guidance of promotion of the sponsors and the organization (how to do it, what to do, what NOT to do)
> 5. MINIMUM requirements for attendance in order to maintain PRO status, such minimums as your STATE's Championships, your SECTIONAL Championship, Vegas, Indoor Nationals, Outdoor Nationals, and then add a few others as "recommended". Can list those as required to "qualify to maintain your Pro Card.
> 6. Training on the Code of Ethics, etc as it relates to conduct, dress, etc.
> 
> The "sponsors" of many of the Pros do require attendance at trade shows, and certain tournaments, but....they require that of "joes" that are on shooting staff as well.
> 
> Unfortunately, most all of the above used to be requirements for the "Old PAA", which has bee defunct for a number of years.
> 
> I'd venture a guess that a lot of what I mention above is part of what is in the works that "we joes" aren't privvy to, since according to "some" of the current Pros, we don't have a right to know. (they could be correct). However, what about the "joes" that have the goal of becoming an accepted PRO in the not-to-distant future? Don't they have a "right to know" what their dues are being paid for? Don't they have a right to know the REQUIREMENTS to become an accepted "Pro"? Don't they have the right to know what it takes to MAINTAIN their status as a card-carrying Pro? Who would just up and pay the fees and then find out what else is part of the "program" as an after-the fact discovery.
> 
> The PRO organization shouldn't be a secret, mystical entity of "elites" that are "better" than the rest of the archers, if you get my drift.....
> Yeah, I know...I ain't a card carrying Pro so I"m not affected by all this...or am I (along with the rest of the DUES PAYING MEMBERSHIP of the NFAA). Since the PROS are getting things out of the NFAA....I sure would think paid up members have a right to know where that money is going, and what it is going for....
> field14 (Tom D.)


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## FV Chuck

bigGP said:


> I have never received a ballot to vote for the Pro chair since i joined the Pro division in 2006 so i need some input here please?
> 
> In the past does the candidate or candidates speak out about what they want to get done or is this position just a popularity contest ??? I certainly hope it isn't? Is there ever any debate? Is it filled by default because nobody wants it or what?? I have seen that Mr,Cooley is being very vocal about what he would like to get done and some of how he wants to do it? Seems to me thats very good and shows he really cares about??? Or maybe not i am just asking? Is he going outside the normal MO for this election by actually TRYING to get elected? I know Mrs,Watson busted her rear to get things done and laid a TON of ground work for the next pro chair……. so wouldn't it be good to know what direction these people want to go? Ignoring what Diane has done or not learning from her would seem an injustice considering how hard she worked?
> 
> Or is it just me? (That has happened before) LMAO


Greg- 
Cant comment on the ballot issue, I think I've received a couple but I would also make the leap if the Chair is running un-opposed there would be no reason to mail them to have people vote. On the same topic I did speak with MariHelen yesterday and she said ballots would be going out within days. As I understand the process it's the NFAA's gig to make sure they get mailed to each current paid pro member.... I would recommended that if you've moved recently or if you think by the slimmest margin that NFAA does not have your proper address, shoot he an e-mail or call with your updated info. I dont want people claiming to be disenfranchised on this. There is a 60 day period to return them.

As for past elections, I dont really know much about those either...I never really followed them all that well. It just seemed that it was kind of "done" and *bing we have a new chair. I cant say I ever recall anyone really reaching out, and I've never ever seen or even heard of a debate.

I can address the rest from my point of view if you like. 

I was pretty shocked when the nomination popped at out the meeting. It was completely unplanned and I still actually dont know who put my name in. Initially I was pretty apprehensive because I do believe in the past it may have had a fair bit to do with popularity. I actually asked Diane for a few days to kind of wrap my head around it and do the homework before just saying yes on a whim or last min idea.
I think historically as pros we've looked to people we knew and trusted by face or name to step up and "do the job". In the few weeks that have followed I have done quite a bit of soul searching at home with Mari, I've chatted with several close friends in the pro ranks, met with my business partners at Feather Vision and had conversations with Diane, MariHelen, and Bruce Cull to kind of test the waters if you will. The most important thing to me on the whole affair was #1, can I do it?, #2, will I have the support of my family, business, and those that I'll have to work with to try and further our position in the NFAA as a division. So far it's been yes across the board. So I've kept my name on the list and become more involved with things I hear about that might impact the NFAA and the Pro Division. 
I've spent quite a bit of time reading and researching to see how things work, why they work the way they do and trying to gain a better understanding of the processes, time frames, etc. 
Diane sent me an e-mail with the duties...MariHelen backed it up in our conversation as well. HOLY Cow, I had no idea all the stuff on her plate. I will need help to get it done and managed but I intend on putting the Pro Executive Council back in play to help offset those tasks and to gain a better understanding and knowledge of the different styles of shooting that are represented by our Pro Division. With the right team in place I think some really great things could happen in a better faster fashion.

So... do I care about it?... in short yes. It's intensely passionate the way I look at the game and the things we could do. You know me and it's not hard to tell that team sports didnt really fit my mold as a kid, football sure a little if 4th Quarter fill in counts, soccer, yeah (I was actually a hell of a goalie), baseball... ahh not so much.... Archery to me is where I can excel. It's me against me...if I'm good it's me, if I'm bad...it's me. My detail and process, logical personality suits it perfect.
It's a pretty safe bet I'll never be the next Reo or Jimmy or Braden, or Levi or Jesse or any one of 20 or 30 guys on the list but I will be competitive and I will care...who else in their right mind would pay what we pay, fly where we fly, do what we do knowing full well a top ten is going to be a stellar off the chart weekend.

Yes... I'm absolutely trying to get elected. I think I can do it -
I think my business background and the respect of the archery community will serve me very well. I also have a lot less to loose than Reo or Jimmy. If I have a bad day at the range or have to go deal with an issue and loose focus... ultimately it wont thrill me but it's cool - I have a day job. My paycheck is created outside the industry. These guys are trying to literally make a living flinging arrows. Not that they are not as passionate or capable or connected or popular....I'm sure they are. I've always considered Jim a good friend, I've always thought it was a two way street. Reo I dont know as well but I've never had a bad vibe and he certainly has a good family history in the sport. I'm sure if the election goes the way that I want it to go I will be challenged by them both to make sure I do the best job possible and I welcome that. But looking "big picture" they have a lot more riding on shooting than I do. From what I understand this has the potential to affect that a bit.

My goal is to really spend some time with Diane to get a better grasp on what she's tried and what the challenges were and hopefully find ways to gain ground on them. Going forward her support and knowledge will be critical to being successful in this position.

There will be some key things that need to be addressed right away - there are other major things that need to be addressed but I dont want to get the cart before the horse. So, some highlights.......

#1 Communication and information sharing- I'll move to go "high-tech" by comparison to create and implement e-mails systems, websites, databases, and information sharing technologies to keep our division better connected. Connection breeds communication, and communication breeds success. If we as a division are to make these giant leaps forward that we seemingly long for it is mission critical to make sure this infrastructure is in place and operating so we can move in directions we desire.

#2 Identity - I'll move to find a way to actually find and identify our demographic. Who are we?, what do we do?, what do we buy, drive, etc... everything we can learn. Not private info but important information that we can use to market our division to sponsors inside and outside the game. This lack of information literally is preventing us from taking even the smallest and simplest of steps. I have connections at a demographic agency and Bruce Cull has indicated he will share the information we need to make this happen.

#3 Goals/Plans - I'll move to reach out to the membership and find out what they actually want from their organization. Where do we want to be in 5, 10, 20 years? How would we get there?, A failure to plan is the same as planning to fail. It should include a type of business plan that will identify our growth, marketing, and financial concerns.

#4 Membership building - I'll move to gain strength in numbers for our division. We absolutely need to have a strong membership base that is well represented across the board. We are currently somewhere in the mid 200's for registered Pro's and I think it needs to double to have a legitimate pool of talent that can draw sponsorship interest. The growth in the womens and senior divisions will be an additional key component to that so we can not only better represent our true NFAA membership but also to offer a broad base of shooters that fit an advertising spectrum.

All of this should be done in a format and system that remains in place so that successive chairs can step in and take over....moving in the direction the membership desires.

I dont want to get into a full blown campaign message here, so I'll hold off...but these are some of the thoughts I have so far.

RS-
Chuck


----------



## FV Chuck

field14 said:


> If the PROS want to be "elite", then some things have got to change. Let's STOP the "just pay your PRO dues, and you are a PRO. How's about some of these items:
> 1. QUALIFYING scores shot at TOURNAMENTS (selected tournaments) in order to be selected as a "Pro"
> 2. Sponsorship by a current Pro in good standing (that used to be there, don't know if it is now or not, or is being by-passed).
> 3. Maintenance of a level of prowess, or maintenance of a SCORING AVERAGE (not necessarily a top 20 finishing score, but just a MINIMUM "average" to maintain your PRO status.
> 4. TRAINING program for any new Pros that are brought in to the organization. Such things as proper dress, guidance of promotion of the sponsors and the organization (how to do it, what to do, what NOT to do)
> 5. MINIMUM requirements for attendance in order to maintain PRO status, such minimums as your STATE's Championships, your SECTIONAL Championship, Vegas, Indoor Nationals, Outdoor Nationals, and then add a few others as "recommended". Can list those as required to "qualify to maintain your Pro Card.
> 6. Training on the Code of Ethics, etc as it relates to conduct, dress, etc.
> 
> The "sponsors" of many of the Pros do require attendance at trade shows, and certain tournaments, but....they require that of "joes" that are on shooting staff as well.
> 
> Unfortunately, most all of the above used to be requirements for the "Old PAA", which has bee defunct for a number of years.
> 
> I'd venture a guess that a lot of what I mention above is part of what is in the works that "we joes" aren't privvy to, since according to "some" of the current Pros, we don't have a right to know. (they could be correct). However, what about the "joes" that have the goal of becoming an accepted PRO in the not-to-distant future? Don't they have a "right to know" what their dues are being paid for? Don't they have a right to know the REQUIREMENTS to become an accepted "Pro"? Don't they have the right to know what it takes to MAINTAIN their status as a card-carrying Pro? Who would just up and pay the fees and then find out what else is part of the "program" as an after-the fact discovery.
> 
> The PRO organization shouldn't be a secret, mystical entity of "elites" that are "better" than the rest of the archers, if you get my drift.....
> Yeah, I know...I ain't a card carrying Pro so I"m not affected by all this...or am I (along with the rest of the DUES PAYING MEMBERSHIP of the NFAA). Since the PROS are getting things out of the NFAA....I sure would think paid up members have a right to know where that money is going, and what it is going for....
> field14 (Tom D.)


Tom -
I like your track, and eventually I'll support it...but I think we need to build a little to, it might be hard to do both right away. It is clearly something to move towards though...... I actually like the post. 
Thank you for that


----------



## field14

You are welcome. I was "on the list" to become a "real" PAA Pro just before the old PAA "went away". I left Sacremento, CA before I could finish accomplishing that goal to be in with the likes of Denise Libby, Anne Butz, Roger Erlandson, Jim Yochum, to name a few. I only met others such as Luther Powell, Steve Robinson, and Victor Berger when I finally arrived in Columbus, Ohio and started to attend tournaments in the Great Lakes Section. I was, at the time, sooooo close to that PAA Card! If I recall, there was a dress code, code of ethics, minimum average that had to be maintained, certain tournaments that had to be attended, and on and on. But then again, that "Pro Organization" did, for whatever reason "fall by the wayside." Many blamed the advent of the release aid for it; but I think it ran a lot deeper than that.

Their concept of a maintenance of, and adherence to a minimum combination of standards, however, was, IMHO, on the right path.

field14 (Tom D.)


----------



## FV Chuck

field14 said:


> You are welcome. I was "on the list" to become a "real" PAA Pro just before the old PAA "went away". I left Sacremento, CA before I could finish accomplishing that goal to be in with the likes of Denise Libby, Anne Butz, Roger Erlandson, Jim Yochum, to name a few. I only met others such as Luther Powell, Steve Robinson, and Victor Berger when I finally arrived in Columbus, Ohio and started to attend tournaments in the Great Lakes Section. I was, at the time, sooooo close to that PAA Card! If I recall, there was a dress code, code of ethics, minimum average that had to be maintained, certain tournaments that had to be attended, and on and on. But then again, that "Pro Organization" did, for whatever reason "fall by the wayside." Many blamed the advent of the release aid for it; but I think it ran a lot deeper than that.
> 
> Their concept of a maintenance of, and adherence to a minimum combination of standards, however, was, IMHO, on the right path.
> 
> field14 (Tom D.)


I for one think it still is a good path.... it's going to take some work, and before we go down the road that is approaching, I'm not worried about putting that kind of thing on the AM Classes yet... LOL! ,.... k ?


----------



## bigGP

field14 said:


> If the PROS want to be "elite", then some things have got to change. Let's STOP the "just pay your PRO dues, and you are a PRO. How's about some of these items:
> 1. QUALIFYING scores shot at TOURNAMENTS (selected tournaments) in order to be selected as a "Pro"
> 2. Sponsorship by a current Pro in good standing (that used to be there, don't know if it is now or not, or is being by-passed).
> 3. Maintenance of a level of prowess, or maintenance of a SCORING AVERAGE (not necessarily a top 20 finishing score, but just a MINIMUM "average" to maintain your PRO status.
> 4. TRAINING program for any new Pros that are brought in to the organization. Such things as proper dress, guidance of promotion of the sponsors and the organization (how to do it, what to do, what NOT to do)
> 5. MINIMUM requirements for attendance in order to maintain PRO status, such minimums as your STATE's Championships, your SECTIONAL Championship, Vegas, Indoor Nationals, Outdoor Nationals, and then add a few others as "recommended". Can list those as required to "qualify to maintain your Pro Card.
> 6. Training on the Code of Ethics, etc as it relates to conduct, dress, etc.
> 
> The "sponsors" of many of the Pros do require attendance at trade shows, and certain tournaments, but....they require that of "joes" that are on shooting staff as well.
> 
> Unfortunately, most all of the above used to be requirements for the "Old PAA", which has bee defunct for a number of years.
> 
> I'd venture a guess that a lot of what I mention above is part of what is in the works that "we joes" aren't privvy to, since according to "some" of the current Pros, we don't have a right to know. (they could be correct). However, what about the "joes" that have the goal of becoming an accepted PRO in the not-to-distant future? Don't they have a "right to know" what their dues are being paid for? Don't they have a right to know the REQUIREMENTS to become an accepted "Pro"? Don't they have the right to know what it takes to MAINTAIN their status as a card-carrying Pro? Who would just up and pay the fees and then find out what else is part of the "program" as an after-the fact discovery.
> 
> The PRO organization shouldn't be a secret, mystical entity of "elites" that are "better" than the rest of the archers, if you get my drift.....
> Yeah, I know...I ain't a card carrying Pro so I"m not affected by all this...or am I (along with the rest of the DUES PAYING MEMBERSHIP of the NFAA). Since the PROS are getting things out of the NFAA....I sure would think paid up members have a right to know where that money is going, and what it is going for....
> field14 (Tom D.)


I agreed with EVERYTHING you had to say there for a minute but as usual you went right ahead and sunk your own battleship. On your 1-6 you are absolutely correct that all those things are needed but once again your negativity has over run and negated your post. NONE of those things are in the works or part of what i would consider the "Hit List". So as said previous what you "Joes" don't know is for good reason. Their dues will go for the same thing as mine and Chucks. Who the heck knows what that is at this point. What grade of gasoline did you pour over your self and your keyboard before you lit the match and threw it on yourself and a pretty good post up until you stopped cut and pasting from the old PAA and let Tom D take over. The Pro organization SHOULD keep certain information private until deals are done because if let out could submarine forward moving efforts because of people like you Tom.

So please wax poetic about what NFAA regular dues go towards the PRO's? Once again Tom please stick to NFAA shoots not Pressleys,Vegas etc. This topic was discussed at the pro meeting in Louisville and has been looked at before so i look forward to you shedding some light on it? What "Things" are Pro's getting out of the NFAA? The NFAA does have a better payout schedule for our ENTRY FEES them the ASA/IBO but once again thats just paying us back our own money? This should be interesting………………….


----------



## bigGP

ohioarcher300 said:


> That’s why I still say there needs to be a qualifying system to become a pro and not one were you get voted in by other pro. You have to shoot your way in. Also a little more recognition for the past champions would be a help.


I agree 100%!!! There are a few things that need to happen before we can attempt to validate our class but you are right.


----------



## bigGP

FV Chuck said:


> Greg-
> Cant comment on the ballot issue, I think I've received a couple but I would also make the leap if the Chair is running un-opposed there would be no reason to mail them to have people vote. On the same topic I did speak with MariHelen yesterday and she said ballots would be going out within days. As I understand the process it's the NFAA's gig to make sure they get mailed to each current paid pro member.... I would recommended that if you've moved recently or if you think by the slimmest margin that NFAA does not have your proper address, shoot he an e-mail or call with your updated info. I dont want people claiming to be disenfranchised on this. There is a 60 day period to return them.
> 
> As for past elections, I dont really know much about those either...I never really followed them all that well. It just seemed that it was kind of "done" and *bing we have a new chair. I cant say I ever recall anyone really reaching out, and I've never ever seen or even heard of a debate.
> 
> I can address the rest from my point of view if you like.
> 
> I was pretty shocked when the nomination popped at out the meeting. It was completely unplanned and I still actually dont know who put my name in. Initially I was pretty apprehensive because I do believe in the past it may have had a fair bit to do with popularity. I actually asked Diane for a few days to kind of wrap my head around it and do the homework before just saying yes on a whim or last min idea.
> I think historically as pros we've looked to people we knew and trusted by face or name to step up and "do the job". In the few weeks that have followed I have done quite a bit of soul searching at home with Mari, I've chatted with several close friends in the pro ranks, met with my business partners at Feather Vision and had conversations with Diane, MariHelen, and Bruce Cull to kind of test the waters if you will. The most important thing to me on the whole affair was #1, can I do it?, #2, will I have the support of my family, business, and those that I'll have to work with to try and further our position in the NFAA as a division. So far it's been yes across the board. So I've kept my name on the list and become more involved with things I hear about that might impact the NFAA and the Pro Division.
> I've spent quite a bit of time reading and researching to see how things work, why they work the way they do and trying to gain a better understanding of the processes, time frames, etc.
> Diane sent me an e-mail with the duties...MariHelen backed it up in our conversation as well. HOLY Cow, I had no idea all the stuff on her plate. I will need help to get it done and managed but I intend on putting the Pro Executive Council back in play to help offset those tasks and to gain a better understanding and knowledge of the different styles of shooting that are represented by our Pro Division. With the right team in place I think some really great things could happen in a better faster fashion.
> 
> So... do I care about it?... in short yes. It's intensely passionate the way I look at the game and the things we could do. You know me and it's not hard to tell that team sports didnt really fit my mold as a kid, football sure a little if 4th Quarter fill in counts, soccer, yeah (I was actually a hell of a goalie), baseball... ahh not so much.... Archery to me is where I can excel. It's me against me...if I'm good it's me, if I'm bad...it's me. My detail and process, logical personality suits it perfect.
> It's a pretty safe bet I'll never be the next Reo or Jimmy or Braden, or Levi or Jesse or any one of 20 or 30 guys on the list but I will be competitive and I will care...who else in their right mind would pay what we pay, fly where we fly, do what we do knowing full well a top ten is going to be a stellar off the chart weekend.
> 
> Yes... I'm absolutely trying to get elected. I think I can do it -
> I think my business background and the respect of the archery community will serve me very well. I also have a lot less to loose than Reo or Jimmy. If I have a bad day at the range or have to go deal with an issue and loose focus... ultimately it wont thrill me but it's cool - I have a day job. My paycheck is created outside the industry. These guys are trying to literally make a living flinging arrows. Not that they are not as passionate or capable or connected or popular....I'm sure they are. I've always considered Jim a good friend, I've always thought it was a two way street. Reo I dont know as well but I've never had a bad vibe and he certainly has a good family history in the sport. I'm sure if the election goes the way that I want it to go I will be challenged by them both to make sure I do the best job possible and I welcome that. But looking "big picture" they have a lot more riding on shooting than I do. From what I understand this has the potential to affect that a bit.
> 
> My goal is to really spend some time with Diane to get a better grasp on what she's tried and what the challenges were and hopefully find ways to gain ground on them. Going forward her support and knowledge will be critical to being successful in this position.
> 
> There will be some key things that need to be addressed right away - there are other major things that need to be addressed but I dont want to get the cart before the horse. So, some highlights.......
> 
> #1 Communication and information sharing- I'll move to go "high-tech" by comparison to create and implement e-mails systems, websites, databases, and information sharing technologies to keep our division better connected. Connection breeds communication, and communication breeds success. If we as a division are to make these giant leaps forward that we seemingly long for it is mission critical to make sure this infrastructure is in place and operating so we can move in directions we desire.
> 
> #2 Identity - I'll move to find a way to actually find and identify our demographic. Who are we?, what do we do?, what do we buy, drive, etc... everything we can learn. Not private info but important information that we can use to market our division to sponsors inside and outside the game. This lack of information literally is preventing us from taking even the smallest and simplest of steps. I have connections at a demographic agency and Bruce Cull has indicated he will share the information we need to make this happen.
> 
> #3 Goals/Plans - I'll move to reach out to the membership and find out what they actually want from their organization. Where do we want to be in 5, 10, 20 years? How would we get there?, A failure to plan is the same as planning to fail. It should include a type of business plan that will identify our growth, marketing, and financial concerns.
> 
> #4 Membership building - I'll move to gain strength in numbers for our division. We absolutely need to have a strong membership base that is well represented across the board. We are currently somewhere in the mid 200's for registered Pro's and I think it needs to double to have a legitimate pool of talent that can draw sponsorship interest. The growth in the womens and senior divisions will be an additional key component to that so we can not only better represent our true NFAA membership but also to offer a broad base of shooters that fit an advertising spectrum.
> 
> All of this should be done in a format and system that remains in place so that successive chairs can step in and take over....moving in the direction the membership desires.
> 
> I dont want to get into a full blown campaign message here, so I'll hold off...but these are some of the thoughts I have so far.
> 
> RS-
> Chuck


Thats not a campaign message? LMAO I am very happy to see that you are not afraid to voice your thoughts!! Thanks Chuck! I am glad to see your not trying to bite of too much right of the bat.


----------



## bigGP

Tom D, I see you watching but not replying? I am awaiting your reply to shed some light on how YOUR dues are being spent on the PRO division in the NFAA? (NOT Pressely's,Iowa or Vegas) Or as is your MO, where you just fanning the flames of discontent & Division with your inaccurate statements and willingness to spread mis information to make yourself feel important?

What you do DOES harm the Pro division and our sport because not everyone knows what's going on, or more importantly how you are. When someone glances at your plethora of negative posts about and how YOUR regular dues pay for the PRO's and how you have the "Right to know" and many of your other inaccurate rants they just assume (Incorrectly) that you know what you're talking about.


----------



## FV Chuck

Sorry bout that Greg.... <sheepish grin>

I get a little amped up, and it's really hard to convey the long laundry list of things that should/could be done without typing mini-novels...

But it's also important to be restrained yet focused. ... It would be easy to get so many things on the table all at at once that nothing gets done...


----------



## bigGP

FV Chuck said:


> Sorry bout that Greg.... <sheepish grin>
> 
> I get a little amped up, and it's really hard to convey the long laundry list of things that should/could be done without typing mini-novels...
> 
> But it's also important to be restrained yet focused. ... It would be easy to get so many things on the table all at at once that nothing gets done...



Naw man its all good! i was serious! I am glad you are speaking up about what direction you think things needs to start going.From your post it doesn't look like you are shooting for the stars and trying to blow a bunch of smoke up peoples rears with promises we know cant happen for some time. keep it up and lets see where all this goes? Good luck man


----------



## field14

bigGP said:


> Tom D, I see you watching but not replying? I am awaiting your reply to shed some light on how YOUR dues are being spent on the PRO division in the NFAA? (NOT Pressely's,Iowa or Vegas) Or as is your MO, where you just fanning the flames of discontent & Division with your inaccurate statements and willingness to spread mis information to make yourself feel important?
> 
> What you do DOES harm the Pro division and our sport because not everyone knows what's going on, or more importantly how you are. When someone glances at your plethora of negative posts about and how YOUR regular dues pay for the PRO's and how you have the "Right to know" and many of your other inaccurate rants they just assume (Incorrectly) that you know what you're talking about.


First off, YOU aren't going to change your mind, so why should I bother. 
Secondly, WHAT "mis-information" are you speaking of? YOUR misinformation is that My NFAA dues have NOTHING to do with Presley's, Iowa, or Vegas, nor do yours (other than "possible pro-points for Iowa and Vegas, but ONLY if you are an NFAA member). Vegas is a WAF shoot and open to everyone, as are Iowa and Presley's. Thus the ONLY ones getting anything out of their NFAA dues are the PROS (if they get pro-points for it, and the "bonus money" at VEGAS for being a card carrying NFAA pro).

Please tell me that you know positively for certain that some of the "joes'" dues are NOT being used to help support the Pros...and that some of the PRO's dues are not supporting the "Joes" side of the game....that would be indeed interesting of how it can be done? Please provide the TRUTH that counters my "suspicions". I'd sure like to see how you jostle the books to PROVE that some of EVERYONE's dues isn't used to run the NFAA, you know....do the work for computing the correct pro-points to give, do the work to calculate and sort the DATA for the PRO Division's scores, payouts. It would be nice to watch you go thru all this and the PROVE that some of everyone's dues somewhere is NOT used to "support the pros">>>>>
Yeah, I know, you'll turn that around and twist it and warp it as a negative, but the fact remains that if the PROS are members and I am a member, and the rest of the Joes are members...the SOME of those dues inevitably have to be going to help support the PROS in some fashion. But go ahead...PROVE ME WRONG; provide the numbers....
Frankly, however, I think that the Pros and Joes must support each other, but some Pros, such as yourself apparently think contrary to that?

YOU are like so many others....the second someone types what you don't want to see, hear, or read...it becomes "negative".
I'll say it again....You want the TRUTH? YOU can't HANDLE the truth...otherwise, you'd see some of the writing on the wall. History is in the process of repeating itself with regard to the PRO division, the NFAA, and its distinction from the other orgs, and etc, but you probably weren't in the game the last time this same thing was going on...so...

You keep putting YOUR negative interpretations into what YOU want to think and then twist what I say into YOUR bent and warped interpretation, just like a typical lawyer or politician...twisting things around to favor your own "rants" and "negatives" and "attacks" because you just don't like what you are reading.

Lastly, MY bait of the day is "shrimp eggs", what's yours?


----------



## FV Chuck

bigGP said:


> Tom D, I see you watching but not replying? I am awaiting your reply to shed some light on how YOUR dues are being spent on the PRO division in the NFAA? (NOT Pressely's,Iowa or Vegas) Or as is your MO, where you just fanning the flames of discontent & Division with your inaccurate statements and willingness to spread mis information to make yourself feel important?
> 
> What you do DOES harm the Pro division and our sport because not everyone knows what's going on, or more importantly how you are. When someone glances at your plethora of negative posts about and how YOUR regular dues pay for the PRO's and how you have the "Right to know" and many of your other inaccurate rants they just assume (Incorrectly) that you know what you're talking about.



deep breath Greg.... let's not give him ammo....
not that your wrong in your assessment but rather than responding and asking him to add fuel, it's better to simply show the facts and quell it altogether.


----------



## field14

FV Chuck said:


> deep breath Greg.... let's not give him ammo....
> not that your wrong in your assessment but rather than responding and asking him to add fuel, it's better to simply show the facts and quell it altogether.


Chuck,
You haven't seen the light yet? He's simply baiting me, and I'm going to "re-bait" him.....but I'd like to see you PROVE that part of MY dues (and everyone else's) inevitably is NOT supporting the PROS in the NFAA after a fashion? Among other things. I'd seriously doubt that the books will ever go into THAT much detail. Splitting hairs, you bet...but....

Does the NFAA have a SPECIFIC "operating budget" exclusively for the NFAA PROS only...that is ALL of the monies paid to the NFAA by ALL of the PROS goes ONLY to that operating fund to support ONLY the Pros and not a dime goes elsewhere and not a DIME comes in from other "parts" of the NFAA monies? If so, then I'm wrong, if not...then I'm hardly wrong.

I will NOT however stand by and be insulted by him, you, or anyone else....when you are only interpreting things in YOUR way, and are of perhaps a differing "opinion"...and then trying to take away MY right to said opinion. 
It is easy to twist things to make the other person look "ugly"; goes on in politics all the time...things taken out of context, totally misinterpreted, people not liking others' "Style"... baiting each other back and forth....which is pretty much what you all are doing.

Today's Bait is still Shrimp eggs, what is yours?


----------



## FV Chuck

field14 said:


> Chuck,
> You haven't seen the light yet? He's simply baiting me, and I'm going to "re-bait" him.....but I'd like to see you PROVE that part of MY dues (and everyone else's) inevitably is NOT supporting the PROS in the NFAA? Among other things.
> 
> Bait is still Shrimp eggs, what is yours?


Yes Tom - and I posted that he should not give you ammo as well., If that's going to be the tone of the post where we are playing baiting games and slamming each other I WILL remind BOTH of you to RE-READ the terms of this section in the Sticky at the top of the thread list. This is the Pro forum and non-pros are guests. As a guest we welcome and desire your input but everyone (yes everyone) is expected to act with respect and dignity.If you like games, please see GenPop.

Keep it civil or keep it out....

If either of you cant then I'll ask Diane to step in. Getting banned or put in time out would be something I dont want to have to deal with.... K?

As for your dues and where they go, I dont know. I'm not privvy to that info but as a General Member of the NFAA I'm sure you could ask your State rep, or someone at the office for the accounting breakdown. 
In the Pro Division we know where ever cent goes, it's in the bylaws. You can find them on the NFAA website.

RS-
CHuck


----------



## field14

FV Chuck said:


> If that's going to be the tone of the post where we are playing baiting games and slamming each other I WILL remind BOTH of you to RE-READ the terms of this section in the Sticky at the top of the thread list. This is the Pro forum and non-pros are guests. As a guest we welcome and desire your input but everyone (yes everyone) is expected to act with respect and dignity.If you like games, please see GenPop.
> 
> Keep it civil or keep it out....If either of you cant then I'll ask Diane to step in. Getting banned or put in time out would be something I dont want to have to deal with.... K?
> 
> As for your dues and where they go, I dont know. I'm not privvy to that info but as a General Member of the NFAA I'm sure you could ask your State rep, or someone at the office for the accounting breakdown.
> In the Pro Division we know where ever cent goes, it's in the bylaws. You can find them on the NFAA website.
> 
> RS-
> CHuck


I know you will say "he, said, I said"...>BUT...nowhere have I called anyone "ignorant", stupid, or dressed them down....until the slams became personal.

I fully understand the rules...and agree with them, but I won't be personally attacked, period. I felt very insulted by bigGP and responded in kind in the post of which you speak concerning civility; who wouldn't? He was far from treating me with dignity and respect.

You on the other hand have kept it reasonably civil, and "put downs" are there, but at least subtle and not so demeaning or belittling; bigGP's are not.

Two wrongs don't make a right...and you are entirely correct in your cautioning...but remember....I did NOT cast the first stone with "insults". I express opinions that some don't like and get insulted because of some pretty "gross" misinterpretations of where I'm trying to come from by a person that doesn't know me yet puts words in my mouth and makes me today's whipping post?

Chuck, are you sure that a part of your NFAA memership dues doesn't go to the "general operating fund" for running the NFAA? There have to be "administrative fees" that would dictate that some of the PRO monies (membership fees) go to take care of these. I know that the "payout monies" from your registration fees and all of that are covered in the by-laws...but..

I agree, enough of this nonsense, however. I've said my piece and taken MY "pound of flesh" back...On with some REAL discussion that involves SOLUTIONS; it would be welcome on my part too. It is up to big GP to man up now.

field14 (Tom D.)


----------



## FV Chuck

field14 said:


> I know you will say "he, said, I said"...>BUT...nowhere have I called anyone "ignorant", stupid, or dressed them down....until the slams became personal.
> 
> I fully understand the rules...and agree with them, but I won't be personally attacked, period. I felt very insulted by bigGP and responded in kind in the post of which you speak concerning civility; who wouldn't?
> 
> You on the other hand have kept it reasonably civil, and "put downs" are there, but at least subtle and not so demeaning or belittling; bigGP's are not.
> 
> Two wrongs don't make a right...and you are entirely correct in your cautioning...but remember....I did NOT cast the first stone with "insults". I express opinions that some don't like and get insulted because of some pretty "gross" misinterpretations of where I'm trying to come from by a person that doesn't know me yet puts words in my mouth and makes me today's whipping post?
> 
> field14 (Tom D.)


Tom....

I've noted them, and I've tried to keep you both in check here.... worrying about who casts the fist stone only deals with what happened after the fact..... how 'bout we just dont let it get there in the first place ok?

moving on......


----------



## field14

Circa 1975...when the "we vs. They" was running hot and heavy. 
The NFAA was almost torn apart by many of the decisions made at that time, and has yet to recover from them. 
Yes a lot of it it did involve the PROS and a "bigger separation between the pros and general membership" back then(Much of it involving the upper crust wanting to make the round more difficult and to have a wider "gap" between PRO scores and Amateur (Open) scores, to help the PROS stand out from the crowd; sound familiar?). 
The Pros did win out on a lot of things and the NFAA was changed forever; most of it good...but the bad is still with us. Mistakes were made on both side, and both are to blame. Quick decisions were made that should perhaps have been thought out more thoroughly, and on and on and on. DO NOT INTERPRET THIS that "I" blame the Pros or that I'm bad-mouthing them, because if that's the way you are interpreting it...YOU ARE WRONG from the outset.
I just don't want to see history repeat itself, is all. Probably the majority of current "Pros" weren't even in the game, many of them not even born when this accumulation of errors and missed opportunities occurred. Thus they don't have a clue as to how similar today's situation is to the sets of circumstances back then. They don't understand that many of the Coucilmen and Directors WERE "members" back then, and are still reeling from that period of hard times.
The same types of comments, reactions, "we vs. they", elitism, "separatists" and all this stuff was prevalent back then, too. Mistakes were made, BIG mistakes...and, if things continue in that direction, the NFAA and the PRO org might be making those same ones over again.

You gotta understand that many of us "older folks" remember this all too well, and want to avoid those mistakes again...that is why this particular party is so "caught up" in this fiasco.


----------



## bigGP

field14 said:


> First off, YOU aren't going to change your mind, so why should I bother.
> Secondly, WHAT "mis-information" are you speaking of? YOUR misinformation is that My NFAA dues have NOTHING to do with Presley's, Iowa, or Vegas, nor do yours (other than "possible pro-points for Iowa and Vegas, but ONLY if you are an NFAA member). Vegas is a WAF shoot and open to everyone, as are Iowa and Presley's. Thus the ONLY ones getting anything out of their NFAA dues are the PROS (if they get pro-points for it, and the "bonus money" at VEGAS for being a card carrying NFAA pro).
> 
> Please tell me that you know positively for certain that some of the "joes'" dues are NOT being used to help support the Pros...and that some of the PRO's dues are not supporting the "Joes" side of the game....that would be indeed interesting of how it can be done? Please provide the TRUTH that counters my "suspicions". I'd sure like to see how you jostle the books to PROVE that some of EVERYONE's dues isn't used to run the NFAA, you know....do the work for computing the correct pro-points to give, do the work to calculate and sort the DATA for the PRO Division's scores, payouts. It would be nice to watch you go thru all this and the PROVE that some of everyone's dues somewhere is NOT used to "support the pros">>>>>
> Yeah, I know, you'll turn that around and twist it and warp it as a negative, but the fact remains that if the PROS are members and I am a member, and the rest of the Joes are members...the SOME of those dues inevitably have to be going to help support the PROS in some fashion. But go ahead...PROVE ME WRONG; provide the numbers....
> Frankly, however, I think that the Pros and Joes must support each other, but some Pros, such as yourself apparently think contrary to that?
> 
> YOU are like so many others....the second someone types what you don't want to see, hear, or read...it becomes "negative".
> I'll say it again....You want the TRUTH? YOU can't HANDLE the truth...otherwise, you'd see some of the writing on the wall. History is in the process of repeating itself with regard to the PRO division, the NFAA, and its distinction from the other orgs, and etc, but you probably weren't in the game the last time this same thing was going on...so...
> 
> You keep putting YOUR negative interpretations into what YOU want to think and then twist what I say into YOUR bent and warped interpretation, just like a typical lawyer or politician...twisting things around to favor your own "rants" and "negatives" and "attacks" because you just don't like what you are reading.
> 
> Lastly, MY bait of the day is "shrimp eggs", what's yours?



If you where at the PRO meeting in Louisville you would have heard the breakdown from the PRO chair where all of the PRO dues go. You weren't and wont be i assume. You are so hung up on what you assume is the truth and how you assume history will repeat itself but your 1-6 items you assumed where the items you arent "Privy" to where completely inaccurate at this time, NOT what the Pro division needs to do to get the ball rolling but you once again just fabricate your own theories and put them out in the public and you question ME about whether i am certain?? OMG your hilarious!. You throw out inaccuracies then want me to prove you wrong??? LMAO why don't you try to find out the truth before you spread inaccuracy's? YOU are the Politician that says ANYTHING they want then says "Not meant to be a factual statement". Your the National Enquirer of archers Tom. Say whatever wild theories and stories you can come up with them expect someone else to find out if its true or not with no regard for the damage you do. 
The Truth Tom?? I don't have to twist your words or make things up Tom you do that for all of us. I am all about the truth and what is needed and whats happenning to get the PRO division to where it needs to be and get our sport to the next level but what you do is a far cry from speaking the truth. Writing on the wall is the VERY reason we are doing the things we are THE WAY we are and people like you CANT know about it or you would try to undermine it as you always do. I can and do handle the truth but all i want is people like you to be quiet and let the people that ARE trying to better the PRO division to do it without your interference. If it doesn't work then you can come out and say "I told you so" from your soap box and pound your chest claiming your wisdom. Until then do the PRO division and our sport a favor and keep your inaccurate statements & Blatant misrepresentations segregated to the divisions and events YOU participate in.

PRO points are a joke.Untrackable,Nobody knows jack about them or how they are paid and they mean ZERO. They are unrelated to the operation and promotion of the organization or the Pro class? come on man thats pretty weak. 
"Vegas is a WAf shoot and open to everyone"…………….. I assume you are talking about the "Championship class"? hahahahahahahaha yep Tom you are certainly "Up to speed" on current affairs arent you? LMAO what a joke!

I appreciate your dialogue and i know you feel you have the wisdom of a 1000 year old man but having these battles with someone who so belligerently stays uninformed has gotten old.Good luck with all of your archery endeavors Tom.

Until you wish to be part of the solution you ARE part of the problem.


----------



## FV Chuck

field14 said:


> Circa 1975...when the "we vs. They" was running hot and heavy.
> The NFAA was almost torn apart by many of the decisions made at that time, and has yet to recover from them.
> Yes a lot of it it did involve the PROS and a "bigger separation between the pros and general membership back then. The Pros did win out on a lot of things and the NFAA was changed forever; most of it good...but the bad is still with us. Mistakes were made on both side, and both are to blame. Quick decisions were made that should perhaps have been thought out more thoroughly, and on and on and on.
> I just don't want to see history repeat itself, is all. Probably the majority of current "Pros" weren't even in the game, many of them not even born when this accumulation of errors and missed opportunities occurred. Thus they don't have a clue as to how similar today's situation is to the sets of circumstances back then. They don't understand that many of the Coucilmen and Directors WERE "members" back then, and are still reeling from that period of hard times.
> The same types of comments, reactions, "we vs. they", elitism, "separatists" and all this stuff was prevalent back then, too. Mistakes were made, BIG mistakes...and, if things continue in that direction, the NFAA and the PRO org might be making those same ones over again.
> 
> You gotta understand that many of us "older folks" remember this all too well, and want to avoid those mistakes again...that is why this particular party is so "caught up" in this fiasco.


I think there might be a little more in play than good intentions to avoid a 35 year old repeat, but please Tom try to stay on focus and not dredge up thorns that cannot be solved in a public form. It's not constructive.... especially in this particular thread. Maybe a different one with a different topic but this one is dealing with PRO CHAIR and I'd like it to not get derailed into an anti NFAA spin.


----------



## field14

FV Chuck said:


> I think there might be a little more in play than good intentions to avoid a 35 year old repeat, but please Tom try to stay on focus and not dredge up thorns that cannot be solved in a public form. It's not constructive.... especially in this particular thread. Maybe a different one with a different topic but this one is dealing with PRO CHAIR and I'd like it to not get derailed into an anti NFAA spin.


I agree, there is enough ANTI-NFAA spin going on about the 3-D target situation at Yankton.

bigGP...again you don't READ...I'm not going to split any more hairs with you...

There you go ASSUMING again, NO! I was NOT talking totally about the CHAMPIONSHIP division....but I am CORRECT with regard to VEGAS (WAF tournament)... NOBODY has to be a paid of member of ANY organization to shoot the Vegas tournament, and that includes those that desire to shoot the CHAMPIONSHIP division. A person does NOT have to be a card carrying NFAA PRO or for that matter a card carrying PRO from ANY organization to shoot in the CHAMPIONSHIP division at Vegas. I, myself, could shoot CHAMPIONSHIP if I was willing to write the check and paid the entry fee for that division, OR I can opt to shoot any division I so choose as long as I shoot according to the equipment rules (NFAA guidelines, for the most part), and meet age requirements of divisions that have one.

I even think PROS have shot in other "divisions" at Vegas in the past and allowed to do so? Not positive of that, but I'm pretty sure that recently there was some flak over that situation occurring? Maybe I'm wrong, however.

Nice shot you took at the NFAA..."Pro points are a joke?" great opinion...hopefully you have offered up a better solution and program to replace or modify pro-points????

done with this, done with you. Let the thread go on, will ya? Just knock off the insults and insinuations and re-read the rules of the forum concerning personal attacks, etc.


----------



## FV Chuck

field14 said:


> Chuck, are you sure that a part of your NFAA memership dues doesn't go to the "general operating fund" for running the NFAA? There have to be "administrative fees" that would dictate that some of the PRO monies (membership fees) go to take care of these. I know that the "payout monies" from your registration fees and all of that are covered in the by-laws...but..
> 
> field14 (Tom D.)


By the way - 

The answer to your question, from the NFAA By-Laws online

These dues are on top of our NFAA dues, so I would say that as pros we are paying into the GenFund and admin fees at least twice...

Professional Dues:
The NFAA Professional fees being $75.00 per member for the calendar year. The
following guidelines will be used in disbursing membership dues:
National Indoor Championship Prize Fund $17.50
National Field Championship Prize Fund 17.50
Sectional Indoor Championship Prize Fund 5.00
Sectional Field Championship Prize Fund 5.00
Pro Point Prize Fund 10.00
Tournament Guarantee Fund 2.50
NFAA Administration Cost 2.50
General Expense Fund 15.00
Total $75.0


----------



## field14

FV Chuck said:


> By the way -
> 
> The answer to your question, from the NFAA By-Laws online
> 
> These dues are on top of our NFAA dues, so I would say that as pros we are paying into the GenFund and admin fees at least twice...
> 
> Professional Dues:
> The NFAA Professional fees being $75.00 per member for the calendar year. The
> following guidelines will be used in disbursing membership dues:
> National Indoor Championship Prize Fund $17.50
> National Field Championship Prize Fund 17.50
> Sectional Indoor Championship Prize Fund 5.00
> Sectional Field Championship Prize Fund 5.00
> Pro Point Prize Fund 10.00
> Tournament Guarantee Fund 2.50
> NFAA Administration Cost 2.50
> General Expense Fund 15.00
> Total $75.0


Thanks, Chuck. I so stand corrected on that issue regarding Pro dues. I think it is good you brought this out for everyone to see; it is an eye-opener for others that might think things are different that what this shows to be the real case.

I would think that the NFAA administration cost $2.50 deals directly with costs for the PRO division alone, but the part of your "regular" NFAA dues does get muddy as to what "other costs" are involved to make it appear that you guys are paying TWICE for "administrative costs" to run your division. I can see it for the targets, the magazine, and other such related things...but....Interesting, most interesting.

field14 (Tom D.)


----------



## FV Chuck

gotta bail for a few hrs.... work beckons 

Play nice boys


----------



## gcab

bigGP said:


> Being a member of ANY Organization by no means entitles you to have a say in everything contained in it?? LOL Do you get to decide what the women do or do they? (If your not a woman).If your not a member of THAT class then it doesn't effect you, and until it effects you its not your concern.
> This year was a debacle for LOTS of people in Louisville for lots of reasons. If you are comparing your score to mine this year then you arent getting the point.I shot 119's the last 2 years in a row but anyway. A PIN shooter shot 120 X's and ALL of the Pros but 3 and all but 1 Am did NOT? Does that make the Pin shooter a better shooter then all of us? 1 tournament an elite shooter not make. ONLY the elite shooters should benefit?? Come on man
> 
> The very best at ANY sport work harder then the rest,Have more at RISK,some are trying to pay bills in the sport, Are held to a higher standard because of their shooting ability ( IE- you comparing our scores this year and thinking that means anything),Are generally way more competitive personality types, Enjoy competing against the very best on earth,are paid to be there and perform,I could go on and on but thats why they are better. You look at ONE score of mine and compare yourself to THAT? That in itself is one of the fundamental flaws in our sport.How do you think you would hold up shooting for $20000 a weekend? I played lots of sports my entire life so i am familiar with PRODUCT SPONSORSHIPS very well. Do any of those companies you mentioned PAY large amounts of money to those little league teams or high school teams? Heck no. Do they lavish gifts and large contracts on the coaches? WHAT THEY DO IS………. Have scouts and coaches and agents and all kinds of parents trying to get any lil kid with above average skill noticed. I have first hand knowledge of a 8 year old basketball player whose parents have ALREADY been talked to by NIKE and college recruiters. Haven't you ever heard of these HIGH SCHOOL kids changing high schools so they can get noticed? This is BIG BUSINESS and its all about laying the ground work and fertilizing from the top down.Pro-Semi pro-Farm leugues-AAU-College-summer league-high school-junior high and the all star traveling teams and if you don't think every shoe/clothing company and college isn't looking over all that with a microscope your not paying attention. Now the NCAA is a different beast all together as most already know.
> What you are so loosely calling "Providing" is simply a product DONATION and lots of companies do it for lots of reasons.You are seriously confused on the difference between what these companies do for little league teams and major league teams. Does Alex Rodriguez where a glove with some high school kids name on it? I am looking at a UA catalog right this second and i don't see any little league or high school or prep or whatever people in it? I see PRO'S. Real ones. Thats why all the product you see donated and all the shoes you buy and cloths and balls are endorsed and sponsored by big time PRO'S? You know the ones on the posters and cards and shoes and TV commercials…….You get the point.
> Who is on the release or arrows or target or range finder or whatever you have for your hunting rig? YOU? your hunting buddy? The guy down the road that kills deer every year? NOPE. Its Michael Waddell or Lee and Tiff or Levi Morgan or yeah you get the point.
> In order for any sport to make it to the next level there has to be a PRODUCT.The product is NOT the skill of given sport.Its the Top athletes of said sport. Look at Nascar or any other sport on earth and the very best are showcased /marketed/promoted and paid accordingly for the extra work/pressure etc. Do you think MJ or LeBron or Kobe or Alex Rodriguez or gets paid because the Little league/dirt track,playground or recreational league made it?? They get paid because they are the best because THATS who the People at the recreational level of any sport look up to and follow/Buy merchandise they use and endorse and PRO's are who companies USE to market & Advertise with. Archers however have a skewed view of how our sport should work. You get to warm up,shoot and hangout next to the very best archers on earth and you don't even recognize that and you take it for granted? As i posted earlier do you think ANY other amateur or recreational participant gets to warm up and shoot next to or WITH Tiger? or Kobe? Or Alex? HAHAHAHAHAHA Tiger would throw a BF if a 30 handicapper was in his group at a tournament? LMAO Or if Kobe had to warm up and share the court with some High school kids before the finals?
> 
> As to your comment about getting the same results so thats all that matters? Does the local club player think he should be on tour when he shoots a better score then Tiger ONCE because Tiger went shankapotomuss or was late cuz his HO held him up? Or when an NBA player misses a free throw and you don't you should be in the NBA? If Adam Vinateri shanks a 30 yard field goal and the guy at the park doesn't ? Bring him up he is ready for the NFL! I don't know who you are or what kind of archery you shoot but i WELCOME you to come shoot with some PRO's at a national tournament for $12000-$25000 DOLLARS and lets see how things wash out? I appreciate your questions but your attitude towards our sport and the level at which it is performed at its best shows how little you understand about it. Please PM me your location and i would be more then happy to find a PRO in your area so you can get some tutelage. Its rather difficult to find a good archery coach these days (But go to ANY golf course and there is a Golf PRO on site hmmmmmm).
> 
> Good luck with your archery and I look forward to seeing you on the line shooting with the PRO's next year.


Thanks for the offer. I have a coach though. Maybe thats part of the reason why my results are catching up, or maybe I work as hard or harder than you do. But I guess I still don't know what the answer is as to what is "Elite", or what makes an archer "Elite". Not sure how not winning any big tournaments, myself included, would make one "Elite". A pin shooter shot 120 x's, compared to the rest of every and any class that did NOT shoot 120 x's. Yes, that weekend, he was better than the rest of you. Just because someone pays an extra $85 doesn't mean the pressure is any different. He didn't choke, and he shot better. He would be National Champ and compared to a non-national champ, I would say that is elite. 

Not sure why my attitude concerning how I would think of Elite has anything to do with my knowledge of the sport. In fact, I think it would be just the opposite. Reo, Braden, Jesse, Chance, McCarthy, Hopkings, Levi, Erica, Jamie.. these people WIN... that makes them elite. THEIR attitude(which to us lowly people that shot the same scores but for $85 less that see them walking around), is what makes them Elite. Not ranting about being Elite for not winning. We both mentioned football. Ok, so you have Manning(either of them), Ben, Rogers, etc... they have won play off games and superbowls. Romo never has. So Romo would not be Elite because he doesn't win the meaningful games, and the others are because they do. You are stating I wouldn't be Elite becuase I haven't beaten any pros at a national shoot.. but neither have you. Thats why I am curious what is Elite and what is not.

I guess thats just my opinion. The US ranking system I think gives a good basis. Maybe the NFAA can adopt something such as that.


----------



## FV Chuck

field14 said:


> Thanks, Chuck. I so stand corrected on that issue regarding Pro dues. I think it is good you brought this out for everyone to see; it is an eye-opener for others that might think things are different that what this shows to be the real case.
> 
> I would think that the NFAA administration cost $2.50 deals directly with costs for the PRO division alone, but the part of your "regular" NFAA dues does get muddy as to what "other costs" are involved to make it appear that you guys are paying TWICE for "administrative costs" to run your division. I can see it for the targets, the magazine, and other such related things...but....Interesting, most interesting.
> 
> field14 (Tom D.)


It's all public info on the NFAA Site Tom 
I didnt do anything special except look it up.


----------



## bigGP

gcab said:


> Thanks for the offer. I have a coach though. Maybe thats part of the reason why my results are catching up, or maybe I work as hard or harder than you do. But I guess I still don't know what the answer is as to what is "Elite", or what makes an archer "Elite". Not sure how not winning any big tournaments, myself included, would make one "Elite". A pin shooter shot 120 x's, compared to the rest of every and any class that did NOT shoot 120 x's. Yes, that weekend, he was better than the rest of you. Just because someone pays an extra $85 doesn't mean the pressure is any different. He didn't choke, and he shot better. He would be National Champ and compared to a non-national champ, I would say that is elite.
> 
> Not sure why my attitude concerning how I would think of Elite has anything to do with my knowledge of the sport. In fact, I think it would be just the opposite. Reo, Braden, Jesse, Chance, McCarthy, Hopkings, Levi, Erica, Jamie.. these people WIN... that makes them elite. THEIR attitude(which to us lowly people that shot the same scores but for $85 less that see them walking around), is what makes them Elite. Not ranting about being Elite for not winning. We both mentioned football. Ok, so you have Manning(either of them), Ben, Rogers, etc... they have won play off games and superbowls. Romo never has. So Romo would not be Elite because he doesn't win the meaningful games, and the others are because they do. You are stating I wouldn't be Elite becuase I haven't beaten any pros at a national shoot.. but neither have you. Thats why I am curious what is Elite and what is not.
> 
> I guess thats just my opinion. The US ranking system I think gives a good basis. Maybe the NFAA can adopt something such as that.



A ranking system would be great as would a Q school but we have alot of other things to get done before those. IMHO what separates Elite athletes from recreational athletes is what they are competing for and whats at stake. Shooting fro a silver bowl cant even come close to the pressure of shooting for $20000 dollars. Playing in the rec football league cant compare to playing for millions of dollars in front of millions of people. Different expectations,different rewards,different pressures. So whether the scores are the same or not the pressures associated with the elite level of any competition change things. Keep up your shooting and keep working with whomever your coach is and hopefully one day i will see you on the line. I can remember the first time i went from Am to pro and the first shoot was only a state event and i shot worse then i did as a Am because i was freaking. LMAO


----------



## bigGP

field14 said:


> I agree, there is enough ANTI-NFAA spin going on about the 3-D target situation at Yankton.
> 
> bigGP...again you don't READ...I'm not going to split any more hairs with you...
> 
> There you go ASSUMING again, NO! I was NOT talking totally about the CHAMPIONSHIP division....but I am CORRECT with regard to VEGAS (WAF tournament)... NOBODY has to be a paid of member of ANY organization to shoot the Vegas tournament, and that includes those that desire to shoot the CHAMPIONSHIP division. A person does NOT have to be a card carrying NFAA PRO or for that matter a card carrying PRO from ANY organization to shoot in the CHAMPIONSHIP division at Vegas. I, myself, could shoot CHAMPIONSHIP if I was willing to write the check and paid the entry fee for that division, OR I can opt to shoot any division I so choose as long as I shoot according to the equipment rules (NFAA guidelines, for the most part), and meet age requirements of divisions that have one.
> 
> I even think PROS have shot in other "divisions" at Vegas in the past and allowed to do so? Not positive of that, but I'm pretty sure that recently there was some flak over that situation occurring? Maybe I'm wrong, however.
> 
> Nice shot you took at the NFAA..."Pro points are a joke?" great opinion...hopefully you have offered up a better solution and program to replace or modify pro-points????
> 
> done with this, done with you. Let the thread go on, will ya? Just knock off the insults and insinuations and re-read the rules of the forum concerning personal attacks, etc.




No disrespect intended Tom but are you sure about that? Answer Carefully LMAO


----------



## bigGP

FV Chuck said:


> It's all public info on the NFAA Site Tom
> I didnt do anything special except look it up.


pffffft since when does that matter? LOL


----------



## gcab

bigGP said:


> A ranking system would be great as would a Q school but we have alot of other things to get done before those. IMHO what separates Elite athletes from recreational athletes is what they are competing for and whats at stake. Shooting fro a silver bowl cant even come close to the pressure of shooting for $20000 dollars. Playing in the rec football league cant compare to playing for millions of dollars in front of millions of people. Different expectations,different rewards,different pressures. So whether the scores are the same or not the pressures associated with the elite level of any competition change things. Keep up your shooting and keep working with whomever your coach is and hopefully one day i will see you on the line. I can remember the first time i went from Am to pro and the first shoot was only a state event and i shot worse then i did as a Am because i was freaking. LMAO



Louisville winner got $7,500.. not $20,000. But it looks like the answer is just pay the $85 to be considered Elite. That is fine, I was just curious. My opinion is different, but that is why it is my opinion and not yours. But speaking of a coach, I would be willing to offer you the number of my coach. Maybe you could use some help on the mental side of the game. The target is stationary at 20 yards for 60 arrows. What you are shooting against or for shouldnt have anything to do with the result. So if the result is 119x or 116x.. doesn't matter what you were shooting for since you won't win. Same as a pin shooter getting 120x. Doesn't matter what the prize is, the pressure is to shoot the 120x. Not sure why thinking about a payout would matter for one, myself included, that has never shot a 120 to get to a shootoff anyways. But pressure is only what you make of it. So just because there is a larger payout, doesn't mean the pressure would be any less.


----------



## FV Chuck

field14 said:


> Thanks, Chuck. I so stand corrected on that issue regarding Pro dues. I think it is good you brought this out for everyone to see; it is an eye-opener for others that might think things are different that what this shows to be the real case.
> 
> I would think that the NFAA administration cost $2.50 deals directly with costs for the PRO division alone, but the part of your "regular" NFAA dues does get muddy as to what "other costs" are involved to make it appear that you guys are paying TWICE for "administrative costs" to run your division. I can see it for the targets, the magazine, and other such related things...but....Interesting, most interesting.
> 
> field14 (Tom D.)


We have to pay regular PLUS pro dues....we pay twice. Thats what I was getting at.
The NFAA presumably uses our regular member dues for NFAA business, (just as they do with your dues) and then there is 17.50 as well from the pro side that goes into the office.
Thats where the double dip occurs.


----------



## bigGP

gcab said:


> Louisville winner got $7,500.. not $20,000. But it looks like the answer is just pay the $85 to be considered Elite. That is fine, I was just curious. My opinion is different, but that is why it is my opinion and not yours. But speaking of a coach, I would be willing to offer you the number of my coach. Maybe you could use some help on the mental side of the game. The target is stationary at 20 yards for 60 arrows. What you are shooting against or for shouldnt have anything to do with the result. So if the result is 119x or 116x.. doesn't matter what you were shooting for since you won't win. Same as a pin shooter getting 120x. Doesn't matter what the prize is, the pressure is to shoot the 120x. Not sure why thinking about a payout would matter for one, myself included, that has never shot a 120 to get to a shootoff anyways. But pressure is only what you make of it. So just because there is a larger payout, doesn't mean the pressure would be any less.


Where did you come up with the $7500? Let me guess…………….. you looked on the same website where you saw the scores??? LMAOROTF While i appreciate your interest you really should TRY to educate yourself about things before you go public with your "Opinion's" unless you really don't care?
A stationary target at 20 yards so its as easy as that? LMAO your a funny guy. Larger payout doesn't mean the pressure is any different? Or shooting to pay your families bills? or shooting to maintain your sponsorships? WOW you have it all figured out so you certainly should be a PRO considering you apparently have the mental game of Ghandi? Come on with it bro. I have shot lots of 120's to get into shoot offs just not at nationals and i have shot alot of 300 vegas rounds but at Vegas the stakes are a bit higher and like most others i haven't got my poop in a group at the right time. For someone with your apparent mental game of a stone cold killer,shooting a 116 must have been devastating considering its only 20 yards and the target doesn't move? How are you living with yourself having shot so bad like the rest of us? I mean its so simple? Its just 20 yards and pressure is what you make of it? Its ridiculous really? i mean the very best shooters in the USA where there and only 3 of the Pro's shot 120x? They should have their pro cards revoked for having a bad weekend right? I understand you are fairly new to this side of the game and i don't want to insult you too bad and with all due respect,but to be honest you are pretty clueless? And the information you do regurgitate is not even accurate? 

Except maybe the mental coach?? Lets have that mental coaches number while your at it?


----------



## bigGP

field14 said:


> Thanks, Chuck. I so stand corrected on that issue regarding Pro dues. I think it is good you brought this out for everyone to see; it is an eye-opener for others that might think things are different that what this shows to be the real case.
> 
> I would think that the NFAA administration cost $2.50 deals directly with costs for the PRO division alone, but the part of your "regular" NFAA dues does get muddy as to what "other costs" are involved to make it appear that you guys are paying TWICE for "administrative costs" to run your division. I can see it for the targets, the magazine, and other such related things...but....Interesting, most interesting.
> 
> field14 (Tom D.)


Brought it out? Its been public information on the website forever but god forbid you actually look??? So since you have now been "Informed" about information that was at your fingertips for the entire 72 years you have been a NFAA member does that mean since PRO's pay twice as much as you that we have twice as many rights? hmmmmmmmmm


----------



## field14

bigGP said:


> Brought it out? Its been public information on the website forever but god forbid you actually look??? So since you have now been "Informed" about information that was at your fingertips for the entire 72 years you have been a NFAA member does that mean since PRO's pay twice as much as you that we have twice as many rights? hmmmmmmmmm


So, you are still on the attack, but today you picked TWO whipping posts, huh?
Of course your lack of concern for even considering that potential NEW members just might want to know this same information? What about potential NEW Pros that don't know where to go to get this information? 
But then again, you are still on your pedestal and so set with a self-centered nature with TWO "whipping posts" to inflame and pick on today, that you must be in your 7th heaven or something, that you can't see the forest for the trees...hahaha.

I begin to think YOU don't "really" care about "new Pros" joining in and being informed BEFORE they do join in...probably cuz you have an inherent fear that they will be lowering your position in the final standings and relegating you to an even lower final finish. 
You make light of people that, at a NATIONAL tournament shoot 120X's in the MBHFS division and try to make a mockery of it as "not elite", or at least not elite enough for you, that is. 
That particular person in the AMBHFS not only shot 120X, he set a NEW NATIONAL RECORD for that Division...which means...it is the first time it has ever been done by any AMBHFS shooter....that makes this person pretty ELITE in any category, by simply becoming the FIRST ONE to ever do it. But for YOU that evidently doesn't count, cuz it wasn't "under pressure" of the MONEY SHOOTERS....BUNK! Talk about demeaning...that takes the cake, and coming out of a supposed Professional archer, too? HMMMMMM.
Put yourself in the AMBHFS'ers shoes and how YOU would feel if your achievement of being the first ever to shoot 120X at the NFAA Nationals in AMBHFS...and some "pro" gives the appearance that it isn't up to "standard". 

Of course, you also don't make mention that this year's finals was the LOWEST number of PROS in the PMFS that shot 120X since 2004!. It has, in the past been way more than THREE toeing the line for the National title: 2011: 3; 2010: 7; 2009: 10; 2008: 10; 2007: 10; 2006: 9; 2005: 7; 2004: 3.

What IF, and that is a big "IF" a paid up, card carrying NFAA Pro, shot 120X's and also WON the shoot-off. However that particular person was footing the entire bill by himself, without ANY contracts or sponsorships. He shoots a bow made in a foreign country, along with his other equipment being something that wasn't on the "contingency list". As such, he will NOT receive a DIME in contingency money, cuz he doesn't have any contracts, and isn't shooting "for" anyone...therefore, his payoff would be ONLY what the NFAA payout is for the NATIONAL CHAMPIONSHIP....as in $7,500 period. 

The particular winner for 2011 that you speak of getting something like $20,000....is a highly SPONSORED PRO, with contracts that give him contingency money from several sources. He still only got $7,500 from the NFAA payout the rest did NOT come from the NFAA.

A person on the outside looking in only sees, from the NFAA Standings, $7,500 period, so, how are the "outsiders" supposed to know otherwise? Is there something whereby people learn this by osmosis.

You've already blasted the heck out of me and your other whipping post today....and failed to consider what YOU are doing to HARM the image of the PROS with how you are attacking others that tread on your "sacred turf." Look in the mirror when it comes to "negativity" cuz you sure aren't presenting much of a professional image to prospective new PROS to want to join the likes of YOUR type of Pro thing. 
You should be evaluting the damage YOU are doing to the PRO image with YOUR rants, insulting nature, demeaning attitude to RECORD SETTING achievements, and general "elitism", because people are looking at YOU in a different light being a paid up pro...than they are me, being sorta like a "washed up pro from years past."


----------



## field14

FV Chuck said:


> We have to pay regular PLUS pro dues....we pay twice. Thats what I was getting at.
> The NFAA presumably uses our regular member dues for NFAA business, (just as they do with your dues) and then there is 17.50 as well from the pro side that goes into the office.
> Thats where the double dip occurs.


Yes, I understand that, Chuck; I knew that you had the "regular dues" AND the PRO dues...it has been that way for quite some time. I'm assuming you are looking into the 'double-dip', correct? That "could" amount to an extra couple thousand bucks to be redistributed to the "Pro Purses" if that 'double dip' is remedied, couldn't it? Or am I wrong again?
T


----------



## The Swami

bigGP said:


> I agree 100%!!! There are a few things that need to happen before we can attempt to validate our class but you are right.


I better start practicing.


----------



## FV Chuck

field14 said:


> Yes, I understand that, Chuck; I knew that you had the "regular dues" AND the PRO dues...it has been that way for quite some time. I'm assuming you are looking into the 'double-dip', correct? That "could" amount to an extra couple thousand bucks to be redistributed to the "Pro Purses" if that 'double dip' is remedied, couldn't it? Or am I wrong again?
> T


No... actually I'm not yet...I dont really have the authority... perhaps double dip was the wrong term. 

I think I need to have some conversations so I can understand better how it all works before I go making too much noise .... it will be something I look at for sure. But for the record, I dont believe the 250ish or so Pro's are making thousands of dollars for anyone....it's a much deeper issue but one that should be dealt with in the Pro Ranks, not necessarily aired here.


----------



## field14

FV Chuck said:


> No... actually I'm not yet...I dont really have the authority... perhaps double dip was the wrong term.
> 
> I think I need to have some conversations so I can understand better how it all works before I go making too much noise .... it will be something I look at for sure. But for the record, I dont believe the 250ish or so Pro's are making thousands of dollars for anyone....it's a much deeper issue but one that should be dealt with in the Pro Ranks, not necessarily aired here.


Gotcha.
T


----------



## bigGP

field14 said:


> So, you are still on the attack, but today you picked TWO whipping posts, huh?
> Of course your lack of concern for even considering that potential NEW members just might want to know this same information? What about potential NEW Pros that don't know where to go to get this information?
> But then again, you are still on your pedestal and so set with a self-centered nature with TWO "whipping posts" to inflame and pick on today, that you must be in your 7th heaven or something, that you can't see the forest for the trees...hahaha.
> 
> I begin to think YOU don't "really" care about "new Pros" joining in and being informed BEFORE they do join in...probably cuz you have an inherent fear that they will be lowering your position in the final standings and relegating you to an even lower final finish.
> You make light of people that, at a NATIONAL tournament shoot 120X's in the MBHFS division and try to make a mockery of it as "not elite", or at least not elite enough for you, that is.
> That particular person in the AMBHFS not only shot 120X, he set a NEW NATIONAL RECORD for that Division...which means...it is the first time it has ever been done by any AMBHFS shooter....that makes this person pretty ELITE in any category, by simply becoming the FIRST ONE to ever do it. But for YOU that evidently doesn't count, cuz it wasn't "under pressure" of the MONEY SHOOTERS....BUNK! Talk about demeaning...that takes the cake, and coming out of a supposed Professional archer, too? HMMMMMM.
> Put yourself in the AMBHFS'ers shoes and how YOU would feel if your achievement of being the first ever to shoot 120X at the NFAA Nationals in AMBHFS...and some "pro" gives the appearance that it isn't up to "standard".
> 
> Of course, you also don't make mention that this year's finals was the LOWEST number of PROS in the PMFS that shot 120X since 2004!. It has, in the past been way more than THREE toeing the line for the National title: 2011: 3; 2010: 7; 2009: 10; 2008: 10; 2007: 10; 2006: 9; 2005: 7; 2004: 3.
> 
> What IF, and that is a big "IF" a paid up, card carrying NFAA Pro, shot 120X's and also WON the shoot-off. However that particular person was footing the entire bill by himself, without ANY contracts or sponsorships. He shoots a bow made in a foreign country, along with his other equipment being something that wasn't on the "contingency list". As such, he will NOT receive a DIME in contingency money, cuz he doesn't have any contracts, and isn't shooting "for" anyone...therefore, his payoff would be ONLY what the NFAA payout is for the NATIONAL CHAMPIONSHIP....as in $7,500 period.
> 
> The particular winner for 2011 that you speak of getting something like $20,000....is a highly SPONSORED PRO, with contracts that give him contingency money from several sources. He still only got $7,500 from the NFAA payout the rest did NOT come from the NFAA.
> 
> A person on the outside looking in only sees, from the NFAA Standings, $7,500 period, so, how are the "outsiders" supposed to know otherwise? Is there something whereby people learn this by osmosis.
> 
> You've already blasted the heck out of me and your other whipping post today....and failed to consider what YOU are doing to HARM the image of the PROS with how you are attacking others that tread on your "sacred turf." Look in the mirror when it comes to "negativity" cuz you sure aren't presenting much of a professional image to prospective new PROS to want to join the likes of YOUR type of Pro thing.
> You should be evaluting the damage YOU are doing to the PRO image with YOUR rants, insulting nature, demeaning attitude to RECORD SETTING achievements, and general "elitism", because people are looking at YOU in a different light being a paid up pro...than they are me, being sorta like a "washed up pro from years past."



Oh how you love to play the poor lil victim don't you Tom? LMAO

For your information HIS name is ZACH PARKER and he is a great guy. HE WILL BE TURNING PRO IN 2012. OMG the sky is falling!! Ask him why sometime and he will tell you "Because i want to compete against the best archers on earth". Zach runs a shop and i am sure has a great archery career ahead of him. Unlike you Tom i look forward to competing against and welcome ANYBODY to the Pro class regardless of whether they are going to beat me or not but with your narrow minded views and knowledge i wouldn't expect you to understand. Its not about winning for the vast majority of us……..Its about COMPETING against the best archers on earth for the highest stakes on earth but thats more lead then your pencil carries know isn't it. Its pretty much common knowledge that COMPANIES pay contingency for winning…..i mean they advertise it all over the place? When they announce what Lebron signed in Miami for should i just assume thats ALL THE MONEY he makes??? Coming in here and asking real questions is one thing but its obvious Gcab is slow playing this situation and your input (as erroneous as it is) actually makes people that don't know any better think you know what your talking about and they act accordingly (Perfect example of why you need to stop,go away or god forbid get educated :mg.

So lets take your "what IF" scenario and look at it………….. When has this EVER happened? Dave Barnsdale winning with his own bow? aside from that when was the last time a "Free Agent" (LIKE ME) that doesn't get travel money,wear a "Shirt",Pays for Bows, or any financial assistance won a national tourney? Shall i wait for this response like i did your accusation demanding your "Right to know" how much of YOUR NFAA dues pay for the Pro class? I am not saying it hasn't happened before Dave but lets hear it there conspiracy theory boy?


----------



## FV Chuck

field14 said:


> There you go ASSUMING again, NO! I was NOT talking totally about the CHAMPIONSHIP division....but I am CORRECT with regard to VEGAS (WAF tournament)... NOBODY has to be a paid of member of ANY organization to shoot the Vegas tournament, and that includes those that desire to shoot the CHAMPIONSHIP division. A person does NOT have to be a card carrying NFAA PRO or for that matter a card carrying PRO from ANY organization to shoot in the CHAMPIONSHIP division at Vegas. I, myself, could shoot CHAMPIONSHIP if I was willing to write the check and paid the entry fee for that division, OR I can opt to shoot any division I so choose as long as I shoot according to the equipment rules (NFAA guidelines, for the most part), and meet age requirements of divisions that have one.


Tom... there is some legislation pending in the Pro community that may affect this. Not being privy to the Pro meeting I'm sure you're unaware, but you may want to hold off on this assumption....
FWIW though this past year in Vegas of the WHOLE ENTIRE Championship Freestyle division, there were only something like 20 who were not card carrying Pro's. So it's more or less viewed as a Pro Class when there.... we are just looking to clarify it a bit better...
Before you ask... no I wont share more than that. It's a Pro matter and will stay as such for now.


----------



## bigGP

The Swami said:


> I better start practicing.


I am sure you will be just fine bro! Just stay involved in your state and region as best you can and when the time comes you will be called on i am sure.


----------



## bigGP

Originally Posted by field14 
There you go ASSUMING again, NO! I was NOT talking totally about the CHAMPIONSHIP division....but I am CORRECT with regard to VEGAS (WAF tournament)... NOBODY has to be a paid of member of ANY organization to shoot the Vegas tournament, and that includes those that desire to shoot the CHAMPIONSHIP division. A person does NOT have to be a card carrying NFAA PRO or for that matter a card carrying PRO from ANY organization to shoot in the CHAMPIONSHIP division at Vegas. I, myself, could shoot CHAMPIONSHIP if I was willing to write the check and paid the entry fee for that division, OR I can opt to shoot any division I so choose as long as I shoot according to the equipment rules (NFAA guidelines, for the most part), and meet age requirements of divisions that have one.

CAN YOU? Pump the brakes Mr current affairs. LMAOROTF


----------



## bigGP

FV Chuck said:


> Tom... there is some legislation pending in the Pro community that may affect this. Not being privy to the Pro meeting I'm sure you're unaware, but you may want to hold off on this assumption....
> FWIW though this past year in Vegas of the WHOLE ENTIRE Championship Freestyle division, there were only something like 20 who were not card carrying Pro's. So it's more or less viewed as a Pro Class when there.... we are just looking to clarify it a bit better...
> Before you ask... no I wont share more than that. It's a Pro matter and will stay as such for now.


Chuck- And how many of those 20 are Foreign archers where there is no PRO division or class or organization? Yeah, so pretty much everyone (Save a handful) in the championship class in Vegas is ALREADY a pro or a foreign shooter that qualifies as Pro. GREAT point Chuck.Thanks for bringing that point to light.


----------



## FV Chuck

bigGP said:


> Chuck- And how many of those 20 are Foreign archers where there is no PRO division or class or organization? Yeah, so pretty much everyone (Save a handful) in the championship class in Vegas is ALREADY a pro or a foreign shooter that qualifies as Pro. GREAT point Chuck.Thanks for bringing that point to light.


Exactly.... I think what we need to do is extend an invitation to the Elite archers that cross our borders and get them involved somehow. It was a great point that was brought up by several members of the Pro Div at the meeting... I'm looking forward to working with NFAA and the Div to make it happen for 2012.

ok .... that's it.... no more tidbits.


----------



## field14

bigGP said:


> Originally Posted by field14
> There you go ASSUMING again, NO! I was NOT talking totally about the CHAMPIONSHIP division....but I am CORRECT with regard to VEGAS (WAF tournament)... NOBODY has to be a paid of member of ANY organization to shoot the Vegas tournament, and that includes those that desire to shoot the CHAMPIONSHIP division. A person does NOT have to be a card carrying NFAA PRO or for that matter a card carrying PRO from ANY organization to shoot in the CHAMPIONSHIP division at Vegas. I, myself, could shoot CHAMPIONSHIP if I was willing to write the check and paid the entry fee for that division, OR I can opt to shoot any division I so choose as long as I shoot according to the equipment rules (NFAA guidelines, for the most part), and meet age requirements of divisions that have one.
> 
> CAN YOU? Pump the brakes Mr current affairs. LMAOROTF


You know what, your continued attacks don't deserve a response. YOU are the one that keeps fueling the fire with rants, accusations, insults, innuendo, elitist remarks.....You don't realize that it is the likes of your type of supposed 'pro shooter', I say "shooter" because a "Pro ARCHER" wouldn't act anything along your remarkable 'role model example' of what a pro should be like.
Keep on ranting and belittling people, cuz now you are the one on the path to making a spectacle of yourself. I'm no longer stooping to your low level, cuz you are the "loser"....great job, 'pro shooter. Real PRO ARCHERS are well above your level...and by more than 4X's, too.

Chuck, my information CURRENTLY is correct, so it is inded FACT through 2011. However, I also know for a fact that in the PAST, there were many shooters in the CHAMPIONSHIP Division at VEGAS that were NOT paid up, card carrying Professional archers. I shoot with no less than 6 of them myself every day. They've done this more than once, too. However, as the "accuracy standards" have been going up and shooting 900 mandatory, those willing to part with the cash to "donate" to a "sponsored professional ARCHER".s fund. Also, as I said in the past several would shoot the CHAMPIONSHIP Division just to avoid shooting at 7AM. Maybe in the future, VEGAS might change the requirements for the CHAMPIONSHIP Division, but RIGHT NOW....that isn't the case, and has NOT been the case for many years.
Not sure it NEEDS to be the case either, but like you said, that is a PRO matter to deal with and shouldn't be aired at this point in time.
field14


----------



## bigGP

field14 said:


> You know what, your continued attacks don't deserve a response. YOU are the one that keeps fueling the fire with rants, accusations, insults, innuendo, elitist remarks.....You don't realize that it is the likes of your type of supposed 'pro shooter', I say "shooter" because a "Pro ARCHER" wouldn't act anything along your remarkable 'role model example' of what a pro should be like.
> Keep on ranting and belittling people, cuz now you are the one on the path to making a spectacle of yourself. I'm no longer stooping to your low level, cuz you are the "loser"....great job, 'pro shooter. Real PRO ARCHERS are well above your level...and by more than 4X's, too.
> 
> Chuck, my information CURRENTLY is correct, so it is inded FACT through 2011. However, I also know for a fact that in the PAST, there were many shooters in the CHAMPIONSHIP Division at VEGAS that were NOT paid up, card carrying Professional archers. I shoot with no less than 6 of them myself every day. They've done this more than once, too. Maybe in the future, VEGAS might change the requirements for the CHAMPIONSHIP Division, but RIGHT NOW....that isn't the case.
> field14


The point is Tom that you don't know whats in the works or what direction the pro class is going and for good reason.But whether you know anything or not you just have to try to feel important by pretending you do. You can say whatever you want about me or my horrible weekend in Louisville (Where did you finish again?) but once again what i have said is the TRUTH and what you say and continue to say is Inaccurate and blatant misrepresentation's to inflate your own ego.


----------



## FV Chuck

field14 said:


> What IF, and that is a big "IF" a paid up, card carrying NFAA Pro, shot 120X's and also WON the shoot-off. However that particular person was footing the entire bill by himself, without ANY contracts or sponsorships. He shoots a bow made in a foreign country, along with his other equipment being something that wasn't on the "contingency list". As such, he will NOT receive a DIME in contingency money, cuz he doesn't have any contracts, and isn't shooting "for" anyone...therefore, his payoff would be ONLY what the NFAA payout is for the NATIONAL CHAMPIONSHIP....as in $7,500 period.
> 
> The particular winner for 2011 that you speak of getting something like $20,000....is a highly SPONSORED PRO, with contracts that give him contingency money from several sources. He still only got $7,500 from the NFAA payout the rest did NOT come from the NFAA.
> 
> A person on the outside looking in only sees, from the NFAA Standings, $7,500 period, so, how are the "outsiders" supposed to know otherwise? Is there something whereby people learn this by osmosis.


Almost happened this year in Vegas.... John Pero a no bow contract shooter, but carries a Pro Card, pays his OWN way for everything. He has a discount deal with FV and some kind of deal with BStinger, and gets a deal on WR Strings, and some kind of deal with Axcel but I know for a fact he buys almost everything else he has. I sold him the last set of arrows he bought, and the bows he shoots he buys.....no trip help, no entry fee help, no nothing... totally getting it done on his own dime. Couple highlights -shot a 1200 with something like 100+x's, won almost everything indoor in the NE last year, AND..... made it to the lucky dog in Vegas (that's an 899)... lost to Tim G.
I would have put all my money on him at Nationals...but he got called into work and had to cancel last min.
(FWIW - I think the Hoyt rep in his area is doing his Co. a disservice by not even getting him a deal on a bow...nothing, not a cent, not even a free truck sticker...if he didn't love the gear so much I bet he'd be gone to another company but... I digress)
Hows that for almost making the dream come true?....As I understand it he would have been paid contingency's as well because HE SHOT THE GEAR in the CHAMP DIVISION...

FWIW, I dont know of a single bow made in another country thats shot on the Pro Line?..Kind of an unrealistic example but I get your point.

As for what people "can win" as contingencies in the Pro Class or in Vegas in the Champ Division - you dont need to be a "highly sponsored shooter".... you shoot it, you win?... you get a check.. Those amounts are printed in every single NFAA program that pertains to that event as well as being posted and printed in almost every issue of the NFAA magazine - ARCHERY. 

I believe Scott's check from PSE was 10K,(there was a pic on Facebook) plus the 7500 from NFAA, plus any arrow deal or sights or what ever... It's probably a pretty accurate statement to say 20K for winning it.

Anything else he got is a private matter between him and his employers (sponsors) and I wouldnt have the sak to even dream of asking him THAT question. Kinda personal dont you think?


----------



## FV Chuck

field14 said:


> You know what, your continued attacks don't deserve a response.
> field14


I dont know if anyone else will find this next statement funny... but I'm LMAO

*But I bet you will....
*
Sorry guys, couldnt resist.....just trying to lighten it up


----------



## gcab

bigGP said:


> Where did you come up with the $7500? Let me guess…………….. you looked on the same website where you saw the scores??? LMAOROTF While i appreciate your interest you really should TRY to educate yourself about things before you go public with your "Opinion's" unless you really don't care?
> A stationary target at 20 yards so its as easy as that? LMAO your a funny guy. Larger payout doesn't mean the pressure is any different? Or shooting to pay your families bills? or shooting to maintain your sponsorships? WOW you have it all figured out so you certainly should be a PRO considering you apparently have the mental game of Ghandi? Come on with it bro. I have shot lots of 120's to get into shoot offs just not at nationals and i have shot alot of 300 vegas rounds but at Vegas the stakes are a bit higher and like most others i haven't got my poop in a group at the right time. For someone with your apparent mental game of a stone cold killer,shooting a 116 must have been devastating considering its only 20 yards and the target doesn't move? How are you living with yourself having shot so bad like the rest of us? I mean its so simple? Its just 20 yards and pressure is what you make of it? Its ridiculous really? i mean the very best shooters in the USA where there and only 3 of the Pro's shot 120x? They should have their pro cards revoked for having a bad weekend right? I understand you are fairly new to this side of the game and i don't want to insult you too bad and with all due respect,but to be honest you are pretty clueless? And the information you do regurgitate is not even accurate?
> 
> Except maybe the mental coach?? Lets have that mental coaches number while your at it?


The payout for Louisville WAS $7,500 to first place. If someone has endorements and sponsorships over that... doesn't change the fact that the payout at Louisville was $7,500. If Reo won, I'm pretty sure he would get a total payout from everything much higher than yours. But the payout for winning was $7,500

You are trying to call me out for not having a clue or to educate myself? I think you need educated as to how to read. I never said I shoot 120x. I never have, never even have gotten 60x once yet. The fact that you shoot those scores in practice or small tournaments and then choke at Nationals... of which you havent won.. simply means you are NOT elite either. I went to Nationals this year and shot my average. Same with Vegas. For anyone to go to a national event and shoot their average, and maybe some will agree, is better than someone running around about how good they are and then choking. I also didn't say they should have pro cards revoked... but they aren't ranting about being the Elite either. Not sure where any of the info I regurgitated was inaccurate. The payout of the tournament was $7,500. Thats fact. You shot a 116. Thats fact. Maybe the only opinion that may not be fact, although I have gotten a couple PMs here of people agreeing, is that a 116 at Nationals-or a 119 at Nationals, still doesn't get anyone to the shootoff, to the winners circle or even to the group of Elite. 

I apologize to Chuck for this thread getting off track, but a suggestion may be at some point to have a ranking system based on scores at Nationals. Maybe that would eliminate the extreme arrogance from those that haven't won anything just like the rest of us trying to get better.


----------



## Mike2787

gcab said:


> The payout for Louisville WAS $7,500 to first place. If someone has endorements and sponsorships over that... doesn't change the fact that the payout at Louisville was $7,500. If Reo won, I'm pretty sure he would get a total payout from everything much higher than yours. But the payout for winning was $7,500
> 
> You are trying to call me out for not having a clue or to educate myself? I think you need educated as to how to read. I never said I shoot 120x. I never have, never even have gotten 60x once yet. The fact that you shoot those scores in practice or small tournaments and then choke at Nationals... of which you havent won.. simply means you are NOT elite either. I went to Nationals this year and shot my average. Same with Vegas. For anyone to go to a national event and shoot their average, and maybe some will agree, is better than someone running around about how good they are and then choking. I also didn't say they should have pro cards revoked... but they aren't ranting about being the Elite either. Not sure where any of the info I regurgitated was inaccurate. The payout of the tournament was $7,500. Thats fact. You shot a 116. Thats fact. Maybe the only opinion that may not be fact, although I have gotten a couple PMs here of people agreeing, is that a 116 at Nationals-or a 119 at Nationals, still doesn't get anyone to the shootoff, to the winners circle or even to the group of Elite.
> 
> I apologize to Chuck for this thread getting off track, but a suggestion may be at some point to have a ranking system based on scores at Nationals. Maybe that would eliminate the extreme arrogance from those that haven't won anything just like the rest of us trying to get better.


Just what do you consider elite? So a person has an off tournament, are they no longer considered elite? Only a person that shoots 120X is elite? I'm guessing that Reo is no longer elite given his last couple of finishes. Maybe he should consider dumping this archery profession and go back to driving a truck. I'd be interested in what you consider elite in FITA, 3-D or field. 

This thread has gotten so off track from what it was originally intended for. As far as I'm concerned, if your not an NFAA Pro, keep your opinions to yourself. This thread was meant to allow the three candidates for the Pro Chairman a soapbox to express their ideas about improving the outlook for professional archery in the US. I appreciate Chuck taking the time to give the rest of us some insight as to his views and his passion for pro archery.


----------



## gcab

Mike2787 said:


> Just what do you consider elite? So a person has an off tournament, are they no longer considered elite? Only a person that shoots 120X is elite? I'm guessing that Reo is no longer elite given his last couple of finishes. Maybe he should consider dumping this archery profession and go back to driving a truck. I'd be interested in what you consider elite in FITA, 3-D or field.
> 
> This thread has gotten so off track from what it was originally intended for. As far as I'm concerned, if your not an NFAA Pro, keep your opinions to yourself. This thread was meant to allow the three candidates for the Pro Chairman a soapbox to express their ideas about improving the outlook for professional archery in the US. I appreciate Chuck taking the time to give the rest of us some insight as to his views and his passion for pro archery.


I would consider someone that is respectful at the same as winning, or have actually won, tournaments. Jeff Hopkins hasn't done great the last couple years at Louisville, bu thas a resume that shows he is Elite. Never winning a real tournament is not Elite. Acting like a jerk to everyone in an arrogant tone for stating their opinion, is not Elite.


----------



## FV Chuck

gcab said:


> The payout for Louisville WAS $7,500 to first place. If someone has endorements and sponsorships over that... doesn't change the fact that the payout at Louisville was $7,500. If Reo won, I'm pretty sure he would get a total payout from everything much higher than yours. But the payout for winning was $7,500
> 
> You are trying to call me out for not having a clue or to educate myself? I think you need educated as to how to read. I never said I shoot 120x. I never have, never even have gotten 60x once yet. The fact that you shoot those scores in practice or small tournaments and then choke at Nationals... of which you havent won.. simply means you are NOT elite either. I went to Nationals this year and shot my average. Same with Vegas. For anyone to go to a national event and shoot their average, and maybe some will agree, is better than someone running around about how good they are and then choking. I also didn't say they should have pro cards revoked... but they aren't ranting about being the Elite either. Not sure where any of the info I regurgitated was inaccurate. The payout of the tournament was $7,500. Thats fact. You shot a 116. Thats fact. Maybe the only opinion that may not be fact, although I have gotten a couple PMs here of people agreeing, is that a 116 at Nationals-or a 119 at Nationals, still doesn't get anyone to the shootoff, to the winners circle or even to the group of Elite.
> 
> I apologize to Chuck for this thread getting off track, but a suggestion may be at some point to have a ranking system based on scores at Nationals. Maybe that would eliminate the extreme arrogance from those that haven't won anything just like the rest of us trying to get better.


John, aside from poking Greg with a stick I'm not sure where this is going....let me see if I can re-direct a bit.

#1 - Yes a better Pro Rankings need to be done, how?...not sure yet. It's a work in progress to sort it out so it's meaningful and equitable sine most likely it will have a financial impact on Pro archers.
#2 - Payouts - There are NFAA payouts and then just about everywhere we go there are contingency awards. It may be semantics that you guys are going at here...


----------



## FV Chuck

Mike2787 said:


> Just what do you consider elite? So a person has an off tournament, are they no longer considered elite? Only a person that shoots 120X is elite? I'm guessing that Reo is no longer elite given his last couple of finishes. Maybe he should consider dumping this archery profession and go back to driving a truck. I'd be interested in what you consider elite in FITA, 3-D or field.
> 
> This thread has gotten so off track from what it was originally intended for. As far as I'm concerned, if your not an NFAA Pro, keep your opinions to yourself. This thread was meant to allow the three candidates for the Pro Chairman a soapbox to express their ideas about improving the outlook for professional archery in the US. I appreciate Chuck taking the time to give the rest of us some insight as to his views and his passion for pro archery.


Mike....
You've echoed my sentiments exactly......

THanks man.


----------



## FV Chuck

gcab said:


> I would consider someone that is respectful at the same as winning, or have actually won, tournaments. Jeff Hopkins hasn't done great the last couple years at Louisville, bu thas a resume that shows he is Elite. Never winning a real tournament is not Elite. Acting like a jerk to everyone in an arrogant tone for stating their opinion, is not Elite.


I would simplifiy it to "Elite" is a "personna".... it varies in it's definition based on the overall contribution to the sport


----------



## bigGP

gcab said:


> I would consider someone that is respectful at the same as winning, or have actually won, tournaments. Jeff Hopkins hasn't done great the last couple years at Louisville, bu thas a resume that shows he is Elite. Never winning a real tournament is not Elite. Acting like a jerk to everyone in an arrogant tone for stating their opinion, is not Elite.


So let me get this straight……Charles Barkley, Jim Kelley and all the other Pro athletes that never won the Big one arent elite either then? LMAO Your definition of elite is pathetic and alienates every Pro anything that never won OR won and is a ****** bag? Dennis Rodman won lots but he was a freeeeak? Bill Laimbeer? they are elite though right? winning without being respectful is ok right? 
Once again you are way wrong on the contingency issue for nationals. If i would have won i would have won just about the same as Reo,Scott,Jesse Chance etc save a Bow company "Bonus" if they had already made the podium so you are incorrect again in saying that $7500 is what it pays cuz thats what the NFAA said. ANYONE shooting said equipment is eligible for that companies contingency. The fact i shot my worst indoor nationals this year is your bell to ring??? LMAO I am liking Mike's advice the more and more that you post. You can think i am arrogant or whatever but the FACT is people like YOU and Tom D are pretty much clueless about the Pro game but you jump right in as though you are part of it or even have the slightest clue how it works? Its only 20 yards remember? the target doesn't move remember? Pressure is only what you make of it remember? YEP i shot 116 x in nationals this year and i am not proud of it and it will NEVER happen again. But i am proud to be a PRO AND I WAS PROUD TO BE THERE SHOOTING. I love this sport and am involved on a level you and Tom d will never know because you are a tourist. You want to come to a foreign class and demand it works they way your uninformed mind thinks it should? I live in a country with millions of people just like you. Come to MY country and demand i speak YOUR language? Guess what Gcab (Funny you wont tell your real name) NO HABLA your ignorance brotha. I offered to help you in the beginning to attempt to understand but your just not getting it. So as far as i am concerned your Visa has expired and your ghetto pass has been revoked.


----------



## bigGP

Mike2787 said:


> Just what do you consider elite? So a person has an off tournament, are they no longer considered elite? Only a person that shoots 120X is elite? I'm guessing that Reo is no longer elite given his last couple of finishes. Maybe he should consider dumping this archery profession and go back to driving a truck. I'd be interested in what you consider elite in FITA, 3-D or field.
> 
> This thread has gotten so off track from what it was originally intended for. As far as I'm concerned, if your not an NFAA Pro, keep your opinions to yourself. This thread was meant to allow the three candidates for the Pro Chairman a soapbox to express their ideas about improving the outlook for professional archery in the US. I appreciate Chuck taking the time to give the rest of us some insight as to his views and his passion for pro archery.


Hello Mike

Well said but i am sure cgab (John) will set you straight. It is refreshing that Chuck is letting it be known he is in it to win it.


----------



## sps3172

*Respectful SUGGESTION from a confirmed AMATEUR*

This is just an observation/suggestion from a true amateur.

I've done my best to read this entire thread....trying mainly to focus on what potential candidates have planned for professional archery. I've purposely tried to ignore the embedded debates.....and as such, I may have missed something.

That being said, It seems that the SINGLE BIGGEST challenge facing anyone interested in deriving their means of support from shooting competitive target archery, is the lack of a real revenue stream. From my perspective, 'sports' that produce a revenue stream large enough that a 'pro' can make a living in the sport fall into 1 of 2 categories. I had trouble naming the categories.....forgive me if the semantics are a bit contrived or corny.

Category 1: Entertainment Value Sports (e.g. NASCAR, SUPERCROSS, BASEBALL, etc): The average person doesn't actually participate in these sports, but is interested in watching because the sport provides a significant level of entertainment. Sponsors from all markets flock to these venues and fight for a chance to get their brand in front of the general public.

Category 2: Interested Participant Sports (e.g. Golf, Hunting, etc.): These sports are of little interest to anyone that doesn't participate on some level. They provide little entertainment value to the general public. However, sponsors use these sports to sell their product through emulation (i.e. participants will buy what they see the pros using).

Obviously, there are some sports that might walk the line between these two....but by and large, it seems that you can generally put a 'pro' sport into one of these two categories. I'll use my girlfriend to illustrate this point. Aside from archery, I also play golf and race dirt bikes. My girlfriend does neither. I could not PAY HER MONEY to watch a golf tournament with me....live or on TV. However, she's usually the first one to talk about buying tickets to supercross when it comes to town. I also notice that she tends to buy a certain brand of energy drink because her favorite rider is sponsored by them. Blah...blah...blah...

Right now (and from my outsider's perspective) it seems that the vast majority of the dollars spent in the archery industry revolve around hunting. There is enough general interest/participation in hunting that a revenue stream capable of supporting network TV shows can be supported. I doubt that anyone tunes into a hunting show if they haven't worn camo at least once in their life.

Let's face it. TARGET ARCHERY IS BORING TO WATCH....unless you are a participant. *I think the single biggest key to your success as pros, will be finding ways to increase participation in the sport of TARGET ARCHERY, among the general public.* Until that happens, I suspect that the rest of the points of debate won't matter. If and when it does happen, a lot of your points of contention will take care of themselves.

If I were a pro, the candidate that I would count on to lead my sport to the 'promised land' would be the one with the best plan for expanding TARGET ARCHERY participation in this country.

Again....this is just a respectful suggestion/observation. If this has been covered already, and I missed it, I'm sorry for wasting everyone's time. If I managed to offend anyone, it was purely by accident and I apologize, in advance. I really dig this sport, and I long for the day that I get to watch some of you, on network TV, out there 'wearing a red shirt on Sunday'.

- SS


----------



## gcab

bigGP said:


> So let me get this straight……Charles Barkley, Jim Kelley and all the other Pro athletes that never won the Big one arent elite either then? LMAO Your definition of elite is pathetic and alienates every Pro anything that never won OR won and is a ****** bag? Dennis Rodman won lots but he was a freeeeak? Bill Laimbeer? they are elite though right? winning without being respectful is ok right?
> Once again you are way wrong on the contingency issue for nationals. If i would have won i would have won just about the same as Reo,Scott,Jesse Chance etc save a Bow company "Bonus" if they had already made the podium so you are incorrect again in saying that $7500 is what it pays cuz thats what the NFAA said. ANYONE shooting said equipment is eligible for that companies contingency. The fact i shot my worst indoor nationals this year is your bell to ring??? LMAO I am liking Mike's advice the more and more that you post. You can think i am arrogant or whatever but the FACT is people like YOU and Tom D are pretty much clueless about the Pro game but you jump right in as though you are part of it or even have the slightest clue how it works? Its only 20 yards remember? the target doesn't move remember? Pressure is only what you make of it remember? YEP i shot 116 x in nationals this year and i am not proud of it and it will NEVER happen again. But i am proud to be a PRO AND I WAS PROUD TO BE THERE SHOOTING. I love this sport and am involved on a level you and Tom d will never know because you are a tourist. You want to come to a foreign class and demand it works they way your uninformed mind thinks it should? I live in a country with millions of people just like you. Come to MY country and demand i speak YOUR language? Guess what Gcab (Funny you wont tell your real name) NO HABLA your ignorance brotha. I offered to help you in the beginning to attempt to understand but your just not getting it. So as far as i am concerned your Visa has expired and your ghetto pass has been revoked.


Actually, no I would not consider Jim Kelly Elite. There is a difference between good and Elite. Being a freak and being a dbag as you put it is being 2 seperate things. You answered your own question, although in 2 completely ends of the answer spectrum with the payouts. Winner got paid the $7,500. The rest was endorsements or sponsorships. Just as you put above about "save a bow company bonus".. Thas why they are Elite and not you. What you don't understand is Elite isn't almost making it, Elite is making it. Good is 119x 2 years in a row. Elite is 120x. Elite is winning, not almost winning. Romo is good, but not Elite in any sense because he has never won when it mattered. Maybe that will change someday, but hasn't yet so not Elite yet. 

I am not demanding anything works in anything my way. I just thought since you jumped over Ohio300 about only the Elite should benefit and since he's not a "pro" then he's not Elite, that maybe you could define Elite for us. All you have done is pay your $85, so that makes Elite. I get you are involved with other things for the sport. That makes you involved, but doesn't make you an Elite archer. 

The humorous part is being called ignorant or clueless and pathetic because I disagree with you considering yourself or your defination of Elite, and how respectfulness should be a part of that, but you are the one that acts like that, and spouting off about YOUR supposed country and your language. I am no Spanish, Mexican, or Hispanic. I hope others won't be offended by that, but I guess shows what was meant by the arrogant part, or the dbag stuff as you put it.

Just an FYI, I choose to not post names on an internet forum because I have 3 daughters and there are too many dirtbags. I used to live in Ohio, then moved a couple times and now reside in the Southern parts of the states. Not sure how that makes me a foreigner.


----------



## blueglide1

sps3172 said:


> This is just an observation/suggestion from a true amateur.
> 
> I've done my best to read this entire thread....trying mainly to focus on what potential candidates have planned for professional archery. I've purposely tried to ignore the embedded debates.....and as such, I may have missed something.
> 
> That being said, It seems that the SINGLE BIGGEST challenge facing anyone interested in deriving their means of support from shooting competitive target archery, is the lack of a real revenue stream. From my perspective, 'sports' that produce a revenue stream large enough that a 'pro' can make a living in the sport fall into 1 of 2 categories. I had trouble naming the categories.....forgive me if the semantics are a bit contrived or corny.
> 
> Category 1: Entertainment Value Sports (e.g. NASCAR, SUPERCROSS, BASEBALL, etc): The average person doesn't actually participate in these sports, but is interested in watching because the sport provides a significant level of entertainment. Sponsors from all markets flock to these venues and fight for a chance to get their brand in front of the general public.
> 
> Category 2: Interested Participant Sports (e.g. Golf, Hunting, etc.): These sports are of little interest to anyone that doesn't participate on some level. They provide little entertainment value to the general public. However, sponsors use these sports to sell their product through emulation (i.e. participants will buy what they see the pros using).
> 
> Obviously, there are some sports that might walk the line between these two....but by and large, it seems that you can generally put a 'pro' sport into one of these two categories. I'll use my girlfriend to illustrate this point. Aside from archery, I also play golf and race dirt bikes. My girlfriend does neither. I could not PAY HER MONEY to watch a golf tournament with me....live or on TV. However, she's usually the first one to talk about buying tickets to supercross when it comes to town. I also notice that she tends to buy a certain brand of energy drink because her favorite rider is sponsored by them. Blah...blah...blah...
> 
> Right now (and from my outsider's perspective) it seems that the vast majority of the dollars spent in the archery industry revolve around hunting. There is enough general interest/participation in hunting that a revenue stream capable of supporting network TV shows can be supported. I doubt that anyone tunes into a hunting show if they haven't worn camo at least once in their life.
> 
> Let's face it. TARGET ARCHERY IS BORING TO WATCH....unless you are a participant. *I think the single biggest key to your success as pros, will be finding ways to increase participation in the sport of TARGET ARCHERY, among the general public.* Until that happens, I suspect that the rest of the points of debate won't matter. If and when it does happen, a lot of your points of contention will take care of themselves.
> 
> If I were a pro, the candidate that I would count on to lead my sport to the 'promised land' would be the one with the best plan for expanding TARGET ARCHERY participation in this country.
> 
> Again....this is just a respectful suggestion/observation. If this has been covered already, and I missed it, I'm sorry for wasting everyone's time. If I managed to offend anyone, it was purely by accident and I apologize, in advance. I really dig this sport, and I long for the day that I get to watch some of you, on network TV, out there 'wearing a red shirt on Sunday'.
> 
> - SS


Vey well said,and your observation is correct.There was a quote at the Pro meeting ,and I cant remember who said it." Fun do do boring to watch" was somebodys statement.That was right on the mark,and you are also correct when you said the sport has to grow with participants,not only spectators.I also believe that is true.I hope the next chair has some ideas how to achieve that,and get the council to agee with us. Don Ward


----------



## field14

FV Chuck said:


> Almost happened this year in Vegas.... John Pero a no bow contract shooter, but carries a Pro Card, pays his OWN way for everything. He has a discount deal with FV and some kind of deal with BStinger, and gets a deal on WR Strings, and some kind of deal with Axcel but I know for a fact he buys almost everything else he has. I sold him the last set of arrows he bought, and the bows he shoots he buys.....no trip help, no entry fee help, no nothing... totally getting it done on his own dime. Couple highlights -shot a 1200 with something like 100+x's, won almost everything indoor in the NE last year, AND..... made it to the lucky dog in Vegas (that's an 899)... lost to Tim G.
> I would have put all my money on him at Nationals...but he got called into work and had to cancel last min.
> (FWIW - I think the Hoyt rep in his area is doing his Co. a disservice by not even getting him a deal on a bow...nothing, not a cent, not even a free truck sticker...if he didn't love the gear so much I bet he'd be gone to another company but... I digress)
> Hows that for almost making the dream come true?....As I understand it he would have been paid contingency's as well because HE SHOT THE GEAR in the CHAMP DIVISION...
> 
> _FWIW, I dont know of a single bow made in another country thats shot on the Pro Line?..Kind of an unrealistic example but I get your point._
> As for what people "can win" as contingencies in the Pro Class or in Vegas in the Champ Division - you dont need to be a "highly sponsored shooter".... you shoot it, you win?... you get a check.. Those amounts are printed in every single NFAA program that pertains to that event as well as being posted and printed in almost every issue of the NFAA magazine - ARCHERY.
> 
> I believe Scott's check from PSE was 10K,(there was a pic on Facebook) plus the 7500 from NFAA, plus any arrow deal or sights or what ever... It's probably a pretty accurate statement to say 20K for winning it.
> 
> Anything else he got is a private matter between him and his employers (sponsors) and I wouldnt have the sak to even dream of asking him THAT question. Kinda personal dont you think?


See in red above... Perhaps not THIS year (2011) but in the past (Vegas, NFAA Indoor Nationals, Redding, NFAA Outdoors, ALL of those, and obviously more than that)...there indeed were several of a particular brand of bow, made overseas, that was indeed shot, not only on the PRO line as you call it, but on the Amateur side as well. It HAS been done, and I would suspect it also WILL be done again (obviously can't make guarantees of this, ha) in the near future, if it hasn't already. Did they "win"? No. However, they were competitive with this brand of bow, and didn't fare any worse than some of the other up and coming brands that were in the hands of "Pros".
I know positively for certain that on the Amateur side of the fence in 2011 and also 2010, there were several of this brand of bow on the line at the NFAA Indoor Nationals in 2011; just don't know for sure about the "Pro end of the shooting line for 2011, ."

Of course, you and I also realize that this company doesn't have the huge advertising or operating budgets of the "Big 3" and "little 2 or 3" and a few of the "Wannabee 2 or 3" here in the USA. This small company doesn't have the "horses to compete against the major corporations" but does make a heckuva fine product. 

But "eso es harina de otro costal."


----------



## FV Chuck

field14 said:


> See in red above... Perhaps not THIS year (2011) but in the past (Vegas, NFAA Indoor Nationals, Redding, NFAA Outdoors, ALL of those, and obviously more than that)...there indeed were several of a particular brand of bow, made overseas, that was indeed shot, not only on the PRO line as you call it, but on the Amateur side as well. It HAS been done, and I would suspect it also WILL be done again (obviously can't make guarantees of this, ha) in the near future, if it hasn't already. Did they "win"? No. However, they were competitive with this brand of bow, and didn't fare any worse than some of the other up and coming brands that were in the hands of "Pros".
> I know positively for certain that on the Amateur side of the fence in 2011 and also 2010, there were several of this brand of bow on the line at the NFAA Indoor Nationals in 2011; just don't know for sure about the "Pro end of the shooting line for 2011, ."
> 
> Of course, you and I also realize that this company doesn't have the huge advertising or operating budgets of the "Big 3" and "little 2 or 3" and a few of the "Wannabee 2 or 3" here in the USA. This small company doesn't have the "horses to compete against the major corporations" but does make a heckuva fine product.
> 
> But "eso es harina de otro costal."



Pros Tom,.....Pro's
....not clue what bow line your chatting about?... is it a secret?
Stay on track


----------



## sps3172

blueglide1 said:


> Vey well said,and your observation is correct.There was a quote at the Pro meeting ,and I cant remember who said it." Fun do do boring to watch" was somebodys statement.That was right on the mark,and you are also correct when you said the sport has to grow with participants,not only spectators.I also believe that is true.I hope the next chair has some ideas how to achieve that,and get the council to agee with us. Don Ward


Thanks for the acknowledgment, Don. Perhaps others will comment when they finish the debate 

The moral of the story, as I see it, is this.....

From my perspective, it seems that everyone is squabbling over nickles and dimes.....instead of focusing on how to make dollars. 

Correct me if I'm wrong here but based on some of the numbers I've seen thrown around, the most ELITE professional archers are hard pressed to out earn the average guy/gal with a Bachelor's degree and a tiny bit of common sense. How fair does that seem? You all have a very UNIQUE skill set that has taken YEARS to hone and many hours of consistent devotion to keep sharp. Shouldn't that be worth more than what they pay a mindless schlep (like me) to sit at a desk and play on facebook all day? *smile*


----------



## bigGP

sps3172 said:


> This is just an observation/suggestion from a true amateur.
> 
> I've done my best to read this entire thread....trying mainly to focus on what potential candidates have planned for professional archery. I've purposely tried to ignore the embedded debates.....and as such, I may have missed something.
> 
> That being said, It seems that the SINGLE BIGGEST challenge facing anyone interested in deriving their means of support from shooting competitive target archery, is the lack of a real revenue stream. From my perspective, 'sports' that produce a revenue stream large enough that a 'pro' can make a living in the sport fall into 1 of 2 categories. I had trouble naming the categories.....forgive me if the semantics are a bit contrived or corny.
> 
> Category 1: Entertainment Value Sports (e.g. NASCAR, SUPERCROSS, BASEBALL, etc): The average person doesn't actually participate in these sports, but is interested in watching because the sport provides a significant level of entertainment. Sponsors from all markets flock to these venues and fight for a chance to get their brand in front of the general public.
> 
> Category 2: Interested Participant Sports (e.g. Golf, Hunting, etc.): These sports are of little interest to anyone that doesn't participate on some level. They provide little entertainment value to the general public. However, sponsors use these sports to sell their product through emulation (i.e. participants will buy what they see the pros using).
> 
> Obviously, there are some sports that might walk the line between these two....but by and large, it seems that you can generally put a 'pro' sport into one of these two categories. I'll use my girlfriend to illustrate this point. Aside from archery, I also play golf and race dirt bikes. My girlfriend does neither. I could not PAY HER MONEY to watch a golf tournament with me....live or on TV. However, she's usually the first one to talk about buying tickets to supercross when it comes to town. I also notice that she tends to buy a certain brand of energy drink because her favorite rider is sponsored by them. Blah...blah...blah...
> 
> Right now (and from my outsider's perspective) it seems that the vast majority of the dollars spent in the archery industry revolve around hunting. There is enough general interest/participation in hunting that a revenue stream capable of supporting network TV shows can be supported. I doubt that anyone tunes into a hunting show if they haven't worn camo at least once in their life.
> 
> Let's face it. TARGET ARCHERY IS BORING TO WATCH....unless you are a participant. *I think the single biggest key to your success as pros, will be finding ways to increase participation in the sport of TARGET ARCHERY, among the general public.* Until that happens, I suspect that the rest of the points of debate won't matter. If and when it does happen, a lot of your points of contention will take care of themselves.
> 
> If I were a pro, the candidate that I would count on to lead my sport to the 'promised land' would be the one with the best plan for expanding TARGET ARCHERY participation in this country.
> 
> Again....this is just a respectful suggestion/observation. If this has been covered already, and I missed it, I'm sorry for wasting everyone's time. If I managed to offend anyone, it was purely by accident and I apologize, in advance. I really dig this sport, and I long for the day that I get to watch some of you, on network TV, out there 'wearing a red shirt on Sunday'.
> 
> - SS




GREAT POST!!!! I haven't looked at your profile but whats your name? For someone that says you haven't read it all you are THE MAN! You my friend Get it!


----------



## bigGP

gcab said:


> Actually, no I would not consider Jim Kelly Elite. There is a difference between good and Elite. Being a freak and being a dbag as you put it is being 2 seperate things. You answered your own question, although in 2 completely ends of the answer spectrum with the payouts. Winner got paid the $7,500. The rest was endorsements or sponsorships. Just as you put above about "save a bow company bonus".. Thas why they are Elite and not you. What you don't understand is Elite isn't almost making it, Elite is making it. Good is 119x 2 years in a row. Elite is 120x. Elite is winning, not almost winning. Romo is good, but not Elite in any sense because he has never won when it mattered. Maybe that will change someday, but hasn't yet so not Elite yet.
> 
> I am not demanding anything works in anything my way. I just thought since you jumped over Ohio300 about only the Elite should benefit and since he's not a "pro" then he's not Elite, that maybe you could define Elite for us. All you have done is pay your $85, so that makes Elite. I get you are involved with other things for the sport. That makes you involved, but doesn't make you an Elite archer.
> 
> The humorous part is being called ignorant or clueless and pathetic because I disagree with you considering yourself or your defination of Elite, and how respectfulness should be a part of that, but you are the one that acts like that, and spouting off about YOUR supposed country and your language. I am no Spanish, Mexican, or Hispanic. I hope others won't be offended by that, but I guess shows what was meant by the arrogant part, or the dbag stuff as you put it.
> 
> Just an FYI, I choose to not post names on an internet forum because I have 3 daughters and there are too many dirtbags. I used to live in Ohio, then moved a couple times and now reside in the Southern parts of the states. Not sure how that makes me a foreigner.


You just keep beating a horse that was never alive. CONTINGENCY is WINNINGS NOT ENDORSEMENTS OR SPONSORSHIP regardless of who you are or what your contract is ANYONE THAT WINS WITH THE BOW GETS THE $$$$$$. Why cant you get that thru your head? If I had won i would have got the EXACT same amount as anyone else UNLESS that person had already made the podium this year in which case they would get a SMALL bonus on top of what i would. 
Jim Kelly went to the superbowl how many times? He is a Hall of Fame quarterback and you don't consider him elite??? hahahahahahahahahahahahahaha any player in the NBA,NFL,MLB,NHL etc IS A ELITE PLAYER simply by making it to that level of competition. So everyone that shot 1190's is just good? LMAO you are a real jewel. I will send Reo,Jeff Hopkins,Dave Cousins,Braden G and all the other guys texts telling them they are just good because they only shot 119's because you think so.


----------



## bigGP

sps3172 said:


> Thanks for the acknowledgment, Don. Perhaps others will comment when they finish the debate
> 
> The moral of the story, as I see it, is this.....
> 
> From my perspective, it seems that everyone is squabbling over nickles and dimes.....instead of focusing on how to make dollars.
> 
> Correct me if I'm wrong here but based on some of the numbers I've seen thrown around, the most ELITE professional archers are hard pressed to out earn the average guy/gal with a Bachelor's degree and a tiny bit of common sense. How fair does that seem? You all have a very UNIQUE skill set that has taken YEARS to hone and many hours of consistent devotion to keep sharp. Shouldn't that be worth more than what they pay a mindless schlep (like me) to sit at a desk and play on facebook all day? *smile*


CORRECT again! What ends up happening is some of the people you see on this thread and others that have no vested interest in the PRO class interject negative tones and misrepresent and misinform others in regard to things that the PRO's are trying to do so we end up having to do damage control because of people that arent even involved but feel the inherent right to meddle simply because its the same sport. It does damage and takes away from true progress.


----------



## FV Chuck

sps3172 said:


> This is just an observation/suggestion from a true amateur.
> 
> I've done my best to read this entire thread....trying mainly to focus on what potential candidates have planned for professional archery. I've purposely tried to ignore the embedded debates.....and as such, I may have missed something.
> 
> That being said, It seems that the SINGLE BIGGEST challenge facing anyone interested in deriving their means of support from shooting competitive target archery, is the lack of a real revenue stream. From my perspective, 'sports' that produce a revenue stream large enough that a 'pro' can make a living in the sport fall into 1 of 2 categories. I had trouble naming the categories.....forgive me if the semantics are a bit contrived or corny.
> 
> Category 1: Entertainment Value Sports (e.g. NASCAR, SUPERCROSS, BASEBALL, etc): The average person doesn't actually participate in these sports, but is interested in watching because the sport provides a significant level of entertainment. Sponsors from all markets flock to these venues and fight for a chance to get their brand in front of the general public.
> 
> Category 2: Interested Participant Sports (e.g. Golf, Hunting, etc.): These sports are of little interest to anyone that doesn't participate on some level. They provide little entertainment value to the general public. However, sponsors use these sports to sell their product through emulation (i.e. participants will buy what they see the pros using).
> 
> Obviously, there are some sports that might walk the line between these two....but by and large, it seems that you can generally put a 'pro' sport into one of these two categories. I'll use my girlfriend to illustrate this point. Aside from archery, I also play golf and race dirt bikes. My girlfriend does neither. I could not PAY HER MONEY to watch a golf tournament with me....live or on TV. However, she's usually the first one to talk about buying tickets to supercross when it comes to town. I also notice that she tends to buy a certain brand of energy drink because her favorite rider is sponsored by them. Blah...blah...blah...
> 
> Right now (and from my outsider's perspective) it seems that the vast majority of the dollars spent in the archery industry revolve around hunting. There is enough general interest/participation in hunting that a revenue stream capable of supporting network TV shows can be supported. I doubt that anyone tunes into a hunting show if they haven't worn camo at least once in their life.
> 
> Let's face it. TARGET ARCHERY IS BORING TO WATCH....unless you are a participant. *I think the single biggest key to your success as pros, will be finding ways to increase participation in the sport of TARGET ARCHERY, among the general public.* Until that happens, I suspect that the rest of the points of debate won't matter. If and when it does happen, a lot of your points of contention will take care of themselves.
> 
> If I were a pro, the candidate that I would count on to lead my sport to the 'promised land' would be the one with the best plan for expanding TARGET ARCHERY participation in this country.
> 
> Again....this is just a respectful suggestion/observation. If this has been covered already, and I missed it, I'm sorry for wasting everyone's time. If I managed to offend anyone, it was purely by accident and I apologize, in advance. I really dig this sport, and I long for the day that I get to watch some of you, on network TV, out there 'wearing a red shirt on Sunday'.
> 
> - SS


BRILLIANT !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
current vote for best post of the thread...

I'm just gonna say, if I get elected I want you on my speed dial.
(If I dont, I want you on their speed dial too....I would just prefer you on mine...LOL)

Going to you point though of interesting to watch. It was a project I worked on this spring as a proof of concept idea... I formed www.TargetArchery.tv a simple live stream broadcast channel to see if people would watch live archery. Now by comparison my version is rustic but the concept proved it's possible and desirable. 35K Viewer mins on 2 local indoor events. FITA.tv has like 4 million views... it's crazy 
But the point is the concept is there it needs to be tweaked and guided and built and fostered and all those other terms, I honestly think it can be done. No doubt.


----------



## gcab

bigGP said:


> You just keep beating a horse that was never alive. CONTINGENCY is WINNINGS NOT ENDORSEMENTS OR SPONSORSHIP regardless of who you are or what your contract is ANYONE THAT WINS WITH THE BOW GETS THE $$$$$$. Why cant you get that thru your head? If I had won i would have got the EXACT same amount as anyone else UNLESS that person had already made the podium this year in which case they would get a SMALL bonus on top of what i would.
> Jim Kelly went to the superbowl how many times? He is a Hall of Fame quarterback and you don't consider him elite??? hahahahahahahahahahahahahaha any player in the NBA,NFL,MLB,NHL etc IS A ELITE PLAYER simply by making it to that level of competition. So everyone that shot 1190's is just good? LMAO you are a real jewel. I will send Reo,Jeff Hopkins,Dave Cousins,Braden G and all the other guys texts telling them they are just good because they only shot 119's because you think so.



Notice the red print above from your statement. Why can't you get that through your head. 119 is good when that is the best you have ever done. Reo, Jeff, Dave, Braden.... they have all WON.. and won repeatedly at big events. You have NOT... have NOT won. That is why they are Elite and you are not. Not because of 1 tournament, but based on all results. They have WON at the top level, you have NOT. That was why I asked what is Elite after your negative tone to Ohio300 for speaking in a thread that you claim should only be for the Elite. I don't know Ohio300, but would assume since you dont know him either he has never WON at the level of the Elite.. so I guess he should pay his $85 and he could be Elite just like you


----------



## sps3172

bigGP said:


> GREAT POST!!!! I haven't looked at your profile but whats your name? For someone that says you haven't read it all you are THE MAN! You my friend Get it!





bigGP said:


> CORRECT again! What ends up happening is some of the people you see on this thread and others that have no vested interest in the PRO class interject negative tones and misrepresent and misinform others in regard to things that the PRO's are trying to do so we end up having to do damage control because of people that arent even involved but feel the inherent right to meddle simply because its the same sport. It does damage and takes away from true progress.


Hi Greg,

My name is Steve Smith. We've traded a few Q&A sessions over at GRIV's place. I've got the same user ID there too.

It's obvious that everyone posting here is passionate about target archery. Just realize that no matter how much you folks may push one anothers buttons, you still have more in common with each other, than you do with 98% of our country's population.

Basically....everyone here is on the same team, so to speak.

Again....thanks for the props....I really would love to see Pro Target Archery take off here in the states.


----------



## sps3172

FV Chuck said:


> Going to you point though of interesting to watch. It was a project I worked on this spring as a proof of concept idea... I formed www.TargetArchery.tv a simple live stream broadcast channel to see if people would watch live archery. Now by comparison my version is rustic but the concept proved it's possible and desirable. 35K Viewer mins on 2 local indoor events. FITA.tv has like 4 million views... it's crazy
> But the point is the concept is there it needs to be tweaked and guided and built and fostered and all those other terms, I honestly think it can be done. No doubt.


I agree....the potential is tremendous.

I think the folks over the pond (European Pro Archery) were wise to model their 'tour' after that of golf.

Other than the fact that golf has a significant head start on target archery, I see no reason why ultimately, this sport couldn't follow the same course(no pun intended), in terms of progress and popularity.

Archery as so much in its favor:

- An outdoor range (even a field range) would take up far less real estate than even the smallest of golf courses

- An outdoor range would cost far less to maintain (than a golf course) and that would translate into a far more economical form of entertainment for the average American (try and play a nice golf course for less than $50 on a weekend...I dare you)

- Archery would be 'new' to the average American and therefore not subject to all the age old preconceived notions that plague golf (i.e. sport just for rich men, etc)

- Compared to the complexities of TV coverage on a 150 acre golf course, an archery range would be a somewhat simpler task (read as CHEAPER).

That being said, I see a few hurdles (I'm sure I'm missing many) to taking target archery into the mainstream...

-When the average American hears the word 'archery', they immediately think of hunting. Since you folks don't seem to be trying to make a living by killing on camera, you need to find a way to 'adjust' that. There are already folks capitalizing on that segment of society (hunting shows, etc.).....you need the rest of them to realize there's more to the sport than harvesting an animal.

-Equipment cost is a major barrier of entry in terms of target archery. For a mere few hundred dollars, one can buy a full set of clubs and head to a driving range or local course. While it's true that the same economical packages seem to exist for hunting, I don't see many value priced, reasonably competitive, target packages for sale. They're YOUR sponsors....get in their ear.....tell them what you need to help them make more money off this sport.

Ok....I should probably pipe back down now  Bottom line....I agree with Chuck. There's definitely potential.


----------



## FV Chuck

gcab said:


> Notice the red print above from your statement. Why can't you get that through your head. 119 is good when that is the best you have ever done. Reo, Jeff, Dave, Braden.... they have all WON.. and won repeatedly at big events. You have NOT... have NOT won. That is why they are Elite and you are not. Not because of 1 tournament, but based on all results. They have WON at the top level, you have NOT. That was why I asked what is Elite after your negative tone to Ohio300 for speaking in a thread that you claim should only be for the Elite. I don't know Ohio300, but would assume since you dont know him either he has never WON at the level of the Elite.. so I guess he should pay his $85 and he could be Elite just like you


ELITE is not wins and wins alone...it helps...but it's not the single criteria.
I might put it like this to be really stinking blunt... if your cashing a check from an archery company whether you shoot or not?... Yeah that makes you Elite.... there are so few of us that do that it makes us special. 
How about... do they know you by one name?.. K you get a bonus point there too...
Try this... put up a picture of a Pro... anyone that more than 10-15 people can name right off the bat, yep... Elite.
Elite is a package... you earn it with time and effort and participation...


----------



## FV Chuck

sps3172 said:


> I agree....the potential is tremendous.
> 
> I think the folks over the pond (European Pro Archery) were wise to model their 'tour' after that of golf.
> 
> Other than the fact that golf has a significant head start on target archery, I see no reason why ultimately, this sport couldn't follow the same course(no pun intended), in terms of progress and popularity.
> 
> Archery as so much in its favor:
> 
> - An outdoor range (even a field range) would take up far less real estate than even the smallest of golf courses
> 
> - An outdoor range would cost far less to maintain (than a golf course) and that would translate into a far more economical form of entertainment for the average American (try and play a nice golf course for less than $50 on a weekend...I dare you)
> 
> - Archery would be 'new' to the average American and therefore not subject to all the age old preconceived notions that plague golf (i.e. sport just for rich men, etc)
> 
> - Compared to the complexities of TV coverage on a 150 acre golf course, an archery range would be a somewhat simpler task (read as CHEAPER).
> 
> That being said, I see a few hurdles (I'm sure I'm missing many) to taking target archery into the mainstream...
> 
> -When the average American hears the word 'archery', they immediately think of hunting. Since you folks don't seem to be trying to make a living by killing on camera, you need to find a way to 'adjust' that. There are already folks capitalizing on that segment of society (hunting shows, etc.).....you need the rest of them to realize there's more to the sport than harvesting an animal.
> 
> -Equipment cost is a major barrier of entry in terms of target archery. For a mere few hundred dollars, one can buy a full set of clubs and head to a driving range or local course. While it's true that the same economical packages seem to exist for hunting, I don't see many value priced, reasonably competitive, target packages for sale. They're YOUR sponsors....get in their ear.....tell them what you need to help them make more money off this sport.
> 
> Ok....I should probably pipe back down now  Bottom line....I agree with Chuck. There's definitely potential.


Steve - Yet again your right on point with this...you better watch it or your going to get drafted by me here pretty quick 

I have been personally working very very hard in this arena with my own project as well as reaching out to people who can actually make it happen. Sadly I cant divulge too much right now other than to say... in the coming months your going to see an amazing shift and phenomenal step forward for televised archery (of some sort) on american soil. It has nothing to do with me running for Pro Chair... either way, it will happen. 
However I have a nice inside view right now which could be a huge advantage later on.

The challenges involve developing a game that is easy for an average non archer to tune in and figure out. Imagine if you never heard of baseball...watch 30 seconds you got the basics figured out. Throw it at the guy, he tries to hit it, run....football, soccer, rugby, lacrosse...it's all the same. It's inherently easy on the spectator. So we have some work to do there on that aspect. Getting good commentators and back stories and all that would be a key component as well.

As for the expense... you would get a kick out the coverage on FITA for the basic classes... they actually film it all and broadcast it.  I dont suppose there is much interest but they do it anyway for the growth and good of the sport.

Thanks for your posts.... this is the type of dialogue I could read and interact with every singe day.... and what I think the forefathers had in mind for AT I might add.

Please keep it up...


----------



## The Swami

FV Chuck said:


> ELITE is not wins and wins alone...it helps...but it's not the single criteria.
> I might put it like this to be really stinking blunt... if your cashing a check from an archery company whether you shoot or not?... Yeah that makes you Elite.... there are so few of us that do that it makes us special. How about... do they know you by one name?.. K you get a bonus point there too...
> Try this... put up a picture of a Pro... anyone that more than 10-15 people can name right off the bat, yep... Elite.
> Elite is a package... you earn it with time and effort and participation...


I disagree.

I agree with gcab.

I really got to laugh at what you said highlighted in red. LOL! I don't think so. 

Are all PGA touring pros elite? No. They are all pros, but not all are elite. Some are journeyman type pros, they earn a living, but don't win or win consistently. Phil Mickelson is elite, Troy Merritt is not. Got it?

Michael Jordan is Elite, Bill Kerr is not.

I am a pro and I am not elite. 

Reo Wilde is elite, I am not.

All this discussion on forums always ends up in a pissing match. It doesn't look good to me at all. I wonder if any of the pro orgs do this on public forums.


----------



## bigGP

FV Chuck said:


> ELITE is not wins and wins alone...it helps...but it's not the single criteria.
> I might put it like this to be really stinking blunt... if your cashing a check from an archery company whether you shoot or not?... Yeah that makes you Elite.... there are so few of us that do that it makes us special.
> How about... do they know you by one name?.. K you get a bonus point there too...
> Try this... put up a picture of a Pro... anyone that more than 10-15 people can name right off the bat, yep... Elite.
> Elite is a package... you earn it with time and effort and participation...




Hey look at that someone that actually knows?? LMAO WRONG CHUCK!!! If you aint FIRST your LAST!!! End of story!! If you don't WIN you aint S*#T!! Ricky Bobby baby!! weeeeeeehooooooo Who wants to go fast? NOT ME i am a LOSER for never having won a national tournament!!! Face the fear!!! Don't listen to this loser…..Its the Winners that get Paid……And its the Winners that get Laid!!! Shake and Bake! Its the Losers that get Beat……….And its the Losers that Aint ELite! If you aint a Winner you aint D***! Every person on earth that has never won the hardest tournaments on the face of the earth against the very best archers EVER is a LOSER! If you don't like it you can go Letter between E and G yourself old timer! (How much you want fo dat wee…..) anyway! if you see it online or in print ITS TRUE! ALL of the TRUTH regardless of anything else! It don't matter whatever "They" said is the LIMIT weeeeeehooooooo SLINGSHOT………ENGAGE! Im all hopped up on Red bull and Mountain dew and Im gonna …..huh?………..What?……...Hold her hair while you what??????……….I said SPIDER MONKEY! Say I love Crepes? SAY IT! Say I love Crepes? what are they? NO NEVER! your gonna have to break…… What just happened? ………to who?………….why?………..how long ago?…………… tell me again?……………THAT!!! 

So get your phony gold briken ares outta my beach community Lebowski!


Any questions kids?

















I love crepes!


----------



## FV Chuck

bigGP said:


> Hey look at that someone that actually knows?? LMAO WRONG CHUCK!!! If you aint FIRST your LAST!!! End of story!! If you don't WIN you aint S*#T!! Ricky Bobby baby!! weeeeeeehooooooo Who wants to go fast? NOT ME i am a LOSER for never having won a national tournament!!! Face the fear!!! Don't listen to this loser…..Its the Winners that get Paid……And its the Winners that get Laid!!! Shake and Bake! Its the Losers that get Beat……….And its the Losers that Aint ELite! If you aint a Winner you aint D***! Every person on earth that has never won the hardest tournaments on the face of the earth against the very best archers EVER is a LOSER! If you don't like it you can go Letter between E and G yourself old timer! (How much you want fo dat wee…..) anyway! if you see it online or in print ITS TRUE! ALL of the TRUTH regardless of anything else! It don't matter whatever "They" said is the LIMIT weeeeeehooooooo SLINGSHOT………ENGAGE! Im all hopped up on Red bull and Mountain dew and Im gonna …..huh?………..What?……...Hold her hair while you what??????……….I said SPIDER MONKEY! Say I love Crepes? SAY IT! Say I love Crepes? what are they? NO NEVER! your gonna have to break…… What just happened? ………to who?………….why?………..how long ago?…………… tell me again?……………THAT!!!
> 
> So get your phony gold briken ares outta my beach community Lebowski!
> 
> 
> Any questions kids?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I love crepes!


lmao....

to quote TG...... yer killin me smalls......


----------



## The Swami

bigGP said:


> Hey look at that someone that actually knows?? LMAO WRONG CHUCK!!! If you aint FIRST your LAST!!! End of story!! If you don't WIN you aint S*#T!! Ricky Bobby baby!! weeeeeeehooooooo Who wants to go fast? NOT ME i am a LOSER for never having won a national tournament!!! Face the fear!!! Don't listen to this loser…..Its the Winners that get Paid……And its the Winners that get Laid!!! Shake and Bake! Its the Losers that get Beat……….And its the Losers that Aint ELite! If you aint a Winner you aint D***! Every person on earth that has never won the hardest tournaments on the face of the earth against the very best archers EVER is a LOSER! If you don't like it you can go Letter between E and G yourself old timer! (How much you want fo dat wee…..) anyway! if you see it online or in print ITS TRUE! ALL of the TRUTH regardless of anything else! It don't matter whatever "They" said is the LIMIT weeeeeehooooooo SLINGSHOT………ENGAGE! Im all hopped up on Red bull and Mountain dew and Im gonna …..huh?………..What?……...Hold her hair while you what??????……….I said SPIDER MONKEY! Say I love Crepes? SAY IT! Say I love Crepes? what are they? NO NEVER! your gonna have to break…… What just happened? ………to who?………….why?………..how long ago?…………… tell me again?……………THAT!!!
> 
> So get your phony gold briken ares outta my beach community Lebowski!
> 
> 
> Any questions kids?
> I love crepes!


Dude, you are hopped up on Mountain Dew. 

Just face it, we ain't elite. 

You are oversimplifying it and Chuck is trying to complicate it. 

Winning isn't everything. Vince is wrong. 

Lets straighten this all out. The issue is the definition of Elite.

Chuck's Def - Elite=Special
GP's Def - Elite=Total Movie script recollection
My Def - Elite=The best of the best.



Ok, back to your regularly scheduled AT pissing match.


----------



## bigGP

The Swami said:


> I disagree.
> 
> I agree with gcab.
> 
> I really got to laugh at what you said highlighted in red. LOL! I don't think so.
> 
> Are all PGA touring pros elite? No. They are all pros, but not all are elite. Some are journeyman type pros, they earn a living, but don't win or win consistently. Phil Mickelson is elite, Troy Merritt is not. Got it?
> 
> Michael Jordan is Elite, Bill Kerr is not.
> 
> I am a pro and I am not elite.
> 
> Reo Wilde is elite, I am not.
> 
> All this discussion on forums always ends up in a pissing match. It doesn't look good to me at all. I wonder if any of the pro orgs do this on public forums.


Think about this for a second…………. To what level are you comparing??? ELITE is measured by the highest level reached? MJ-Kerr as an example- There are TENS OF MILLIONS if not more people PLAYING basketball. For Kerr to make it to the top ohhhhhh lets see lets take the entire number to Twenty Mill divided into ….How many players are in the NBA? 350 or less? Yeah thats a pretty elite level to accomplish isn't it? Top what % is that of ALL participants? Now MJ was of course a game changer so by that measure your right Kerr is not…… But compared to the other 19999650 or so people that play the game? I am pretty he sure he met the standard.


----------



## FV Chuck

The Swami said:


> I disagree.
> 
> I agree with gcab.
> 
> I really got to laugh at what you said highlighted in red. LOL! I don't think so.
> 
> Are all PGA touring pros elite? No. They are all pros, but not all are elite. Some are journeyman type pros, they earn a living, but don't win or win consistently. Phil Mickelson is elite, Troy Merritt is not. Got it?
> 
> Michael Jordan is Elite, Bill Kerr is not.
> 
> I am a pro and I am not elite.
> 
> Reo Wilde is elite, I am not.
> 
> All this discussion on forums always ends up in a pissing match. It doesn't look good to me at all. I wonder if any of the pro orgs do this on public forums.


Despite my absolute best intentions .... I managed to piss in your Cheerio's...

Sorry bout that, 
See ya in Redding again?


----------



## The Swami

bigGP said:


> Think about this for a second…………. To what level are you comparing??? ELITE is measured by the highest level reached? MJ-Kerr as an example- There are TENS OF MILLIONS if not more people PLAYING basketball. For Kerr to make it to the top ohhhhhh lets see lets take the entire number to Twenty Mill divided into ….How many players are in the NBA? 350 or less? Yeah thats a pretty elite level to accomplish isn't it? Top what % is that of ALL participants? Now MJ was of course a game changer so by that measure your right Kerr is not…… But compared to the other 19999650 or so people that play the game? I am pretty he sure he met the standard.


Oh I have thought about it. 

Bill Kerr is an elite basketball player. He is not an elite pro basketball player. Ya dig?

Not all archery pros are elite pros. Most of us are great shots with a bow however, moreso than most archers. Not all however.

Most Pros are among the best in archery, so they can be called elite archers, but not all are elite pros.

Does that clear it up for all who are concerned about Eliteism?


----------



## FV Chuck

The Swami said:


> Chuck's Def - Elite=Special
> GP's Def - Elite=Total Movie script recollection
> My Def - Elite=The best of the best.
> 
> 
> 
> Ok, back to your regularly scheduled AT pissing match.


OK, I can work with that....


----------



## The Swami

FV Chuck said:


> Despite my absolute best intentions .... I managed to piss in your Cheerio's...
> 
> Sorry bout that,
> See ya in Redding again?


Sorry, but I would never let you piss in my cheerios. I would be an idiot to let you do that.  There is some wisdom there sparky.  

I am just disagreeing with you, I am not mad at you silly. 

You guys get way too protective and veer away from honest discussion too easily. Think about how you all are interacting here.

No, not going to Redding, I do not have the funds necessary to indulge in one of my fave shoots. I am saving money for painting my house and other priorities. I don't get paid by archery companies.  I would have to win to get paid.  Maybe if I was Elite, I could afford to go.


----------



## FV Chuck

The Swami said:


> Oh I have thought about it.
> 
> Bill Kerr is an elite basketball player. He is not an elite pro basketball player. Ya dig?
> 
> Not all archery pros are elite pros. Most of us are great shots with a bow however, moreso than most archers. Not all however.
> 
> Most Pros are among the best in archery, so they can be called elite archers, but not all are elite pros.
> 
> Does that clear it up for all who are concerned about Eliteism?


Justin... it wasnt a dis- 
So now that we have it sorted how do we work with it and capitalize on it...... thats my groove.
Dosent matter why your elite or what semantics you apply to it, mine or yours.... Either way to make the division better it has to be exploited financially...so.. 
What next now that we have it boiled down?
Do we pick 6 or so and ride them like Tiger/Phil/Martina/Phelps/Earnhart or what?


----------



## FV Chuck

The Swami said:


> Sorry, but I would never let you piss in my cheerios. I would be an idiot to let you do that.  There is some wisdom there sparky.
> 
> I am just disagreeing with you, I am not mad at you silly.
> 
> You guys get way too protective and veer away from honest discussion too easily. Think about how you all are interacting here.
> 
> No, not going to Redding, I do not have the funds necessary to indulge in one of my fave shoots. I am saving money for painting my house and other priorities. I don't get paid by archery companies.  I would have to win to get paid.  Maybe if I was Elite, I could afford to go.


Bummer ... wish you could make it. Hoping to be a good year.
Hey no sweat man...the flak jacket is never far from reach on AT... hehehe
Your opinion is one I want to hear no matter what but sometimes it hard to hear the smile through the keyboard.

Oh and by the way.... I've called myself a journeyman pro in conversation more than once...i like the analogy, I pulled the term from a baseball broadcast one day


----------



## The Swami

FV Chuck said:


> Justin... it wasnt a dis-
> So now that we have it sorted how do we work with it and capitalize on it...... thats my groove.
> Dosent matter why your elite or what semantics you apply to it, mine or yours.... Either way to make the division better it has to be exploited financially...so..
> What next now that we have it boiled down?
> Do we pick 6 or so and ride them like Tiger/Phil/Martina/Phelps/Earnhart or what?


You need to make archery a spectator sport. Then you need to make pro archery marketable.

No pro sport can survive without any of these conditions. Simple as that.

If we need to create a game that is spectator friendly, then we do it. I think then we take our best and ride them like a rented mule. Spectators are not going to want to watch a once a week shooter like me hack it around.

I still think if you want a true pro game, we need our own org and an investor. The NFAA will never give us the freedom to promote pro archery. We are not a true pro type of deal the way it is now. We are just an "elite" division that pays more and gets paid more. I know you all will disagree with me on this.

Once you find the way to make it watchable and marketable. You need capital. Someone to invest in it seeing some ROI.

We need a professional archery org and make its focus promoting professional archery. We would need to use the same general rules all competitive archery uses. We use the NFAA for that much like the PGA uses the USGA.

We will never get there if we are constrained by the org we are just a small part of. Not the way the NFAA is set up currently. The way it is now, we would need to change the NFAA to see substantial change in the Pro division.

First step is to find a game that makes archery a spectator sport. Lets start there. Then we have something to market.

I know it has been a while since I have regularly posted here but nobody upsets me. I don't let discussion affect me that way. Neither GP or you have upset me even the slightest bit. You guys are friends and sure I don't always agree, but doesn't mean I am upset. You guys should know my history, I never let stuff like this bother me.


----------



## sps3172

The Swami said:


> You need to make archery a spectator sport. Then you need to make pro archery marketable.


With all due respect, I submit that you can never make target archery into a true spectator sport. I suspect that no matter how you slice it, no one will ever care about archery unless they also shoot a bow. Again...just my opinion....but you would be much better served making sure that archery is a fun/cheap game....so lots of people will want to play it. Don't dumb it down such that you think idiots who don't shoot, will understand what you're doing, when they see it on TV.

I made a comparison to golf as it seems the closest parallel. Does anyone really watch golf.....unless they also play it....even if only occasionally? If you asked me that question, I would respond with a resounding 'no'. It's fairly obvious that golf markets to golfers....there are commercials for golf equipment and also for companies that want to sell other products into the golfing demographic (investments to the wealthy golfing demographic, etc).

You first need to make target archery more popular.....then you inherit a built in audience and it's marketable by default.

As an armature target archer, I want to watch competitive archery. I will buy what I see the pros shooting. Hell...if Cuz claimed he won the last Euro Pro event because of a certain type of underwear....I'd consider it. Dig? I am hooked on target archery as a sport. You need more of me....if that makes sense.


----------



## FV Chuck

The Swami said:


> You need to make archery a spectator sport. Then you need to make pro archery marketable.
> 
> No pro sport can survive without any of these conditions. Simple as that.
> 
> If we need to create a game that is spectator friendly, then we do it. I think then we take our best and ride them like a rented mule. Spectators are not going to want to watch a once a week shooter like me hack it around.
> 
> I still think if you want a true pro game, we need our own org and an investor. The NFAA will never give us the freedom to promote pro archery. We are not a true pro type of deal the way it is now. We are just an "elite" division that pays more and gets paid more. I know you all will disagree with me on this.
> 
> Once you find the way to make it watchable and marketable. You need capital. Someone to invest in it seeing some ROI.
> 
> We need a professional archery org and make its focus promoting professional archery. We would need to use the same general rules all competitive archery uses. We use the NFAA for that much like the PGA uses the USGA.
> 
> We will never get there if we are constrained by the org we are just a small part of. Not the way the NFAA is set up currently. The way it is now, we would need to change the NFAA to see substantial change in the Pro division.
> 
> First step is to find a game that makes archery a spectator sport. Lets start there. Then we have something to market.
> 
> I know it has been a while since I have regularly posted here but nobody upsets me. I don't let discussion affect me that way. Neither GP or you have upset me even the slightest bit. You guys are friends and sure I don't always agree, but doesn't mean I am upset. You guys should know my history, I never let stuff like this bother me.


Actually you would find that I'm alot closer to your thinking than you might imagine.

The obstacle we have is EXACTLY what you point out. The current organization of the NFAA kind of hamstrings us one one side. That said though I think it's going to be critical (unless someone pops out with a 100K they dont know what to do with) to work with the NFAA to establish a program that benefits us both. There is no immanent <sp?> divorce in my instant future for us and the NFAA

You'll see in an upcoming message that I will try to outline this matter as well as some other things in some of my goals as Chair. On this topic it will be to identify and understand EXACTLY how the current system works. Get a great handle on what Diane and the NFAA have done in the recent past and work on those topics that benefit the division. Then it's moving forward to grow this division and make it marketable in it's own way...(all this making the continual and ongoing leap we didnt get a big investor). THe key component is finance. How do we contribute to the Org?... How are (as a div) burning that money?..what can we do to sustain and grow ourselves financially without the NFAA's assistance? I've got some pretty good ideas.....it will be all about finance and growth with a long term business plan with the goal of attracting investors and marketing dollars.

I've already had some conversations with Diane but I need more... I've also spoken to MariHelen, and Bruce to make sure it's something I feel comfortable with. In Redding I'll be spending time with MariHelen to get a much better grasp on what she does for the Div and what I would be expected to do.... by the way Pro Chair has a pretty long list of things... Diane sent it over a few weeks ago.

So in short, like I said I think we are much closer to agreement than not...and at the end of the day I believe most are of a similar mindset.


----------



## FV Chuck

sps3172 said:


> With all due respect, I submit that you can never make target archery into a true spectator sport. I suspect that no matter how you slice it, no one will ever care about archery unless they also shoot a bow. Again...just my opinion....but you would be much better served making sure that archery is a fun/cheap game....so lots of people will want to play it. Don't dumb it down such that you think idiots who don't shoot, will understand what you're doing, when they see it on TV.
> 
> I made a comparison to golf as it seems the closest parallel. Does anyone really watch golf.....unless they also play it....even if only occasionally? If you asked me that question, I would respond with a resounding 'no'. It's fairly obvious that golf markets to golfers....there are commercials for golf equipment and also for companies that want to sell other products into the golfing demographic (investments to the wealthy golfing demographic, etc).
> 
> You first need to make target archery more popular.....then you inherit a built in audience and it's marketable by default.
> 
> As an armature target archer, I want to watch competitive archery. I will buy what I see the pros shooting. Hell...if Cuz claimed he won the last Euro Pro event because of a certain type of underwear....I'd consider it. Dig? I am hooked on target archery as a sport. You need more of me....if that makes sense.


.....Archerytv on YouTube makes a pretty good argument for breaking that myth...5.4 Million views, almost 800 vids. I gotta believe thats more than just competitors watching. Same with the Pro Tour in Europe the Dave just won....they are making it financially work.
Your last paragraph sums it up pretty well and I get it... from that aspect, yes we do


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## The Swami

sps3172 said:


> With all due respect, I submit that you can never make target archery into a true spectator sport. I suspect that no matter how you slice it, no one will ever care about archery unless they also shoot a bow. Again...just my opinion....but you would be much better served making sure that archery is a fun/cheap game....so lots of people will want to play it. Don't dumb it down such that you think idiots who don't shoot, will understand what you're doing, when they see it on TV.
> 
> I made a comparison to golf as it seems the closest parallel. Does anyone really watch golf.....unless they also play it....even if only occasionally? If you asked me that question, I would respond with a resounding 'no'. It's fairly obvious that golf markets to golfers....there are commercials for golf equipment and also for companies that want to sell other products into the golfing demographic (investments to the wealthy golfing demographic, etc).
> 
> You first need to make target archery more popular.....then you inherit a built in audience and it's marketable by default.
> 
> As an armature target archer, I want to watch competitive archery. I will buy what I see the pros shooting. Hell...if Cuz claimed he won the last Euro Pro event because of a certain type of underwear....I'd consider it. Dig? I am hooked on target archery as a sport. You need more of me....if that makes sense.


I never said you could make it a true spectator sport. I just said you need spectators be able to do what you want to accomplish.

I actually agree with your post as that is one of the best ways I can think of to do it. To do that, you need to make archery a sport. I mentioned this on GRIV's website concerning field archery. Most archers are hunters. Many of those don't really care about the competition side of archery. They care about hunting. This is the majority of archers. This is why hunting shows etc. are doing ok.

Convince archery hunters to participate in it as a sport will create more people who will want to watch. The target demographic in archery is very small. Very few to watch it as a sport. There are many archers that exist however.

Golfers view golf as a sport. All who golf are likely to watch it. That is why the PGA does so well. They play the same game us amateurs play and we can relate. Same with baseball and football. Lots of people golf as a sport, there is not really another reason to play golf.

Archery has more reasons to shoot a bow. Most shoot a bow only to hunt. That is the huge number. Find a way to make archery appealing as a sport and you can get somewhere. 3D has been the most successful in this strategy, but not on the level desired.

A 3D game is probably the best way to gain spectators in the sport of archery.

Another way is change the game in the olympics. Find a way to make it a popular event and that will also help.

I agree, it has to be popular as a sport to have it go professional.

Soccer in this country is a great example of how to grow a sport. Get a generation or two to play it as a sport. Start children's leagues etc. Hook them at a young age. The NFAA does some of this on a small scale. Look how soccer has done it. That is a similar model and strategy that we could use to grow archery as a sport people will watch. Soccer was very unpopular not long ago.

This isn't something you can do in a couple of years. It will take a long time. Build a foundation now and others who follow continue to grow it. We are talking decades here. I firmly believe that. It isn't something that will be new for next year etc. We need to plant the seed now. The pro part of it is down the road still.


----------



## FV Chuck

The Swami said:


> I never said you could make it a true spectator sport. I just said you need spectators be able to do what you want to accomplish.
> 
> I actually agree with your post as that is one of the best ways I can think of to do it. To do that, you need to make archery a sport. I mentioned this on GRIV's website concerning field archery. Most archers are hunters. Many of those don't really care about the competition side of archery. They care about hunting. This is the majority of archers. This is why hunting shows etc. are doing ok.
> 
> Convince archery hunters to participate in it as a sport will create more people who will want to watch. The target demographic in archery is very small. Very few to watch it as a sport. There are many archers that exist however.
> 
> Golfers view golf as a sport. All who golf are likely to watch it. That is why the PGA does so well. They play the same game us amateurs play and we can relate. Same with baseball and football. Lots of people golf as a sport, there is not really another reason to play golf.
> 
> Archery has more reasons to shoot a bow. Most shoot a bow only to hunt. That is the huge number. Find a way to make archery appealing as a sport and you can get somewhere. 3D has been the most successful in this strategy, but not on the level desired.
> 
> A 3D game is probably the best way to gain spectators in the sport of archery.
> 
> Another way is change the game in the olympics. Find a way to make it a popular event and that will also help.
> 
> I agree, it has to be popular as a sport to have it go professional.
> 
> Soccer in this country is a great example of how to grow a sport. Get a generation or two to play it as a sport. Start children's leagues etc. Hook them at a young age. The NFAA does some of this on a small scale. Look how soccer has done it. That is a similar model and strategy that we could use to grow archery as a sport people will watch. Soccer was very unpopular not long ago.
> 
> This isn't something you can do in a couple of years. It will take a long time. Build a foundation now and others who follow continue to grow it. We are talking decades here. I firmly believe that. It isn't something that will be new for next year etc. We need to plant the seed now. The pro part of it is down the road still.


Your kinda smarter than the average bear arent ya .... kind of earned that Swami name huh?

FWIW... the thread is going much better now I think


----------



## sps3172

FV Chuck said:


> .....Archerytv on YouTube makes a pretty good argument for breaking that myth...5.4 Million views, almost 800 vids. I gotta believe thats more than just competitors watching. Same with the Pro Tour in Europe the Dave just won....they are making it financially work.
> Your last paragraph sums it up pretty well and I get it... from that aspect, yes we do


Chuck, I must confess that I would have been inclined to attribute those numbers to the fact that the rest of the world seems much more 'target-centric' when compared to the US. Mind you, that's just speculation on my part . Also, in full disclosure, I've never been fortunate enough to visit countries across the pond and thus, I've relied on the internet for my perceptions.

All that being said, you've obviously done your homework on this matter. I'd really like to get a read when you publish your campaign message. Will that be available for public consumption? I realize I have no voting rights and technically, it's not my business. However, as mentioned, I'm really rooting for you guys and I'd just like to know what's going on.


----------



## sps3172

The Swami said:


> I never said you could make it a true spectator sport. I just said you need spectators be able to do what you want to accomplish.
> 
> I actually agree with your post as that is one of the best ways I can think of to do it. To do that, you need to make archery a sport. I mentioned this on GRIV's website concerning field archery. Most archers are hunters. Many of those don't really care about the competition side of archery. They care about hunting. This is the majority of archers. This is why hunting shows etc. are doing ok.
> 
> Convince archery hunters to participate in it as a sport will create more people who will want to watch. The target demographic in archery is very small. Very few to watch it as a sport. There are many archers that exist however.
> 
> Golfers view golf as a sport. All who golf are likely to watch it. That is why the PGA does so well. They play the same game us amateurs play and we can relate. Same with baseball and football. Lots of people golf as a sport, there is not really another reason to play golf.
> 
> Archery has more reasons to shoot a bow. Most shoot a bow only to hunt. That is the huge number. Find a way to make archery appealing as a sport and you can get somewhere. 3D has been the most successful in this strategy, but not on the level desired.
> 
> A 3D game is probably the best way to gain spectators in the sport of archery.
> 
> Another way is change the game in the olympics. Find a way to make it a popular event and that will also help.
> 
> I agree, it has to be popular as a sport to have it go professional.
> 
> Soccer in this country is a great example of how to grow a sport. Get a generation or two to play it as a sport. Start children's leagues etc. Hook them at a young age. The NFAA does some of this on a small scale. Look how soccer has done it. That is a similar model and strategy that we could use to grow archery as a sport people will watch. Soccer was very unpopular not long ago.
> 
> This isn't something you can do in a couple of years. It will take a long time. Build a foundation now and others who follow continue to grow it. We are talking decades here. I firmly believe that. It isn't something that will be new for next year etc. We need to plant the seed now. The pro part of it is down the road still.


Now that you mention it, I recall reading your posts in that thread on GRIV's site. I sometimes forget that people use both sites and I also have trouble keeping track of who is who.

I have another question.....

When I consider this from a pure marketing standpoint, I'm inclined to wonder it's important to ENSURE that Pro Target Archery does not become associated with hunting in any way. (e.g. 3D type format, cross marketing by sponsors with their hunting products, etc)

I say that for 2 reasons:

1) If that association occurs, won't you be competing for pre-existing marketing dollars....those already allocated to selling the hunting equipment?

2) I read that less that 10% of America hunts (that was an old figure....2007 I think). Mind you, that doesn't mean that 90% are apposed to it. However, we all know that some definitely are. Although we may not have good things to say about the PETA type, if I were you, I wouldn't mind spending their money *smile* If the association with hunting never happened, then you wouldn't be limiting your potential audience by any amount.

One of the first things I learned about marketing/advertising is that no successful company 'pays' for marketing. They merely 'loan' the money to various channels (sponsorships, commercials, etc.) with the expectation that the customer will repay that loan plus interest.

I'm curious to hear your thoughts on this.

P.S. Who makes the best custom strin........... JUST KIDDING.


----------



## FV Chuck

sps3172 said:


> Chuck, I must confess that I would have been inclined to attribute those numbers to the fact that the rest of the world seems much more 'target-centric' when compared to the US. Mind you, that's just speculation on my part . Also, in full disclosure, I've never been fortunate enough to visit countries across the pond and thus, I've relied on the internet for my perceptions.
> 
> All that being said, you've obviously done your homework on this matter. I'd really like to get a read when you publish your campaign message. Will that be available for public consumption? I realize I have no voting rights and technically, it's not my business. However, as mentioned, I'm really rooting for you guys and I'd just like to know what's going on.


 You might be right, but audience is audience... and it may encourage growth here. We continually see more and more international participation on the Pro lines from cross border/trans ocean competitors.... never gone over either. Maybe 2012..

Yes actually... it will all be public, or at least that's my full intention. I'll post it here, I'll probably post it on my Facebook page as well, I'd like to get it on GRIV's site but need to chat again with him just to make sure he's cool with that type of message and I'm building a website to share it as well. Hopefully the site will have ways to submit questions, I'd like to have some surveys on there to get proper feedback etc. Goal is launching all that by Sunday. Edits will follow for sure 

I've even bought a domain name for the incoming chair... hows NFAAPro.com sound ? Cool huh?.... A way to get all the great Pro info out there!!! Everybody was asking, nobody was doing...so what the heck, now just need a cool slick webbuilder to step up and offer some (*ahem) heavily discounted services to get it up and running... either way elected or not I'm going to get that going just for the greater good of the division in the spirit of helping out the communication side.

Thanks for the homework thing...really I mean it. The nomination was a total surprise. In my case it wasnt planned at all. In the meeting Jimmy was nominated, which we kind of expected then a few moments pause...then Reo's nomination... some more discussion and all of a sudden a guy on the other side of the room nominates me. I was kind of stunned and wasn't sure what the next step was so I went with it. I still dont know who it was but when I asked I was told, hey I think you would do a good job...well Ok I'll think about it.....so I have and I do every day..

Since then I've put hours and hours into the research...Oh my god do you have any idea how boring By-laws, meeting notes, and Roberts Rules of Order are? ....LOL
I mean I used them on the NYBOD the last couple years but I'm rusty..Havent used them since HS on Council. Like I mentioned I've chatted a couple times and exchanged an email with Diane but I need more conversations with her, and spoken with MariHelen and Bruce to make sure it's something I want to do and more importantly CAN do. I have made plans to meet with MariHelen and Diane in Redding to get a better grasp on it all as well. If I got even the slightest sense from people currently in place thinking I shouldn't or couldn't do it I would have bailed... so far so good.
There is a lot to it as you can see even just by the time here on AT recently...and it will more than likely impact my shooting but the end is worth the means I believe. So much for moving up to Elite status huh?...heheheheee

No worries on the need for knowing thing.... Knowledge is power and I wish more like you would take part in the backend parts of the game... it would make a huge difference in our success.

See you on the line-
more to come-

Chuck


----------



## FV Chuck

sps3172 said:


> P.S. Who makes the best custom strin........... JUST KIDDING.


CRAP!.... we can ask "form" questions on AT? OMG! I so need to go find my camera.....


----------



## The Swami

sps3172 said:


> Now that you mention it, I recall reading your posts in that thread on GRIV's site. I sometimes forget that people use both sites and I also have trouble keeping track of who is who.
> 
> I have another question.....
> 
> When I consider this from a pure marketing standpoint, I'm inclined to wonder it's important to ENSURE that Pro Target Archery does not become associated with hunting in any way. (e.g. 3D type format, cross marketing by sponsors with their hunting products, etc)
> 
> I say that for 2 reasons:
> 
> 1) If that association occurs, won't you be competing for pre-existing marketing dollars....those already allocated to selling the hunting equipment?
> 
> 2) I read that less that 10% of America hunts (that was an old figure....2007 I think). Mind you, that doesn't mean that 90% are apposed to it. However, we all know that some definitely are. Although we may not have good things to say about the PETA type, if I were you, I wouldn't mind spending their money *smile* If the association with hunting never happened, then you wouldn't be limiting your potential audience by any amount.
> 
> One of the first things I learned about marketing/advertising is that no successful company 'pays' for marketing. They merely 'loan' the money to various channels (sponsorships, commercials, etc.) with the expectation that the customer will repay that loan plus interest.
> 
> I'm curious to hear your thoughts on this.
> 
> P.S. Who makes the best custom strin........... JUST KIDDING.


I used to be Ivorytooth on this site as well, but died and was reincarnated as the Swami.

Yes, I think it is important that pro target archery is not closely affiliated with hunting to win broader appeal. To get the sport started, we need to recruit archers in the hunting ranks. Then we need to grow it from a populace outside of that. Small steps.

I don't know much about the nuts and bolts behind marketing/advertising and sponsorships so I am not the best one to comment there.

Look at the other sports. Football existed as a game long before the NFL. It took time to become what it is now. Archery will be no different.

As far as making archery a sport, I have a certain philosophy. I have posted this somewhere before, but I will post it again now.

Archery as far as shooting a bow and arrow is not a sport. It is a discipline/art. The game you incorporate that discipline/art in is what makes it a sport. It is the game. Shootin a basketball into a hoop barely bigger than the ball is in itself, a discipline/art. Incorporating that into a game on the court is what makes it a sport. Make sense?

What you need to make archery popular as a sport is to find a game that uses the discipline/art that has some kind of appeal to watch. Now, it won't be anything like a team sport, but you can still do it just like golf has done it. If it is interesting in any sort of way, you have more success drawing in the spectator to become a participant. Many will be hooked on the discipline/art part of archery and play any type of archery game. The challenge against one's self is the drug, like it is in golf. It will be a gradual growth like golf. Lots of people play golf, therefore lots will follow a pro tour. It helps when you have some personalities involved too in the pro game.

Like I said...

Come up with a way to make it a spectator sport. We discussed ways to make that happen in this thread.

Make the highest level of performance in that sport marketable where there is a ROI involved.

Those two things among some others will make it more possible to have pro archery exist and grow.

Pro archery will be the end game not the beginning one. None of the other sports started off being a professional one.


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## sps3172

The Swami said:


> Archery as far as shooting a bow and arrow is not a sport. It is a discipline/art. The game you incorporate that discipline/art in is what makes it a sport. It is the game. Shootin a basketball into a hoop barely bigger than the ball is in itself, a discipline/art. Incorporating that into a game on the court is what makes it a sport. Make sense?


I get it....I really like it too.


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## Mike2787

Finally, this thread is starting to make some sense. I agree completely with Mr. sps3172. Grow the sport, grow professional archery. Can't have one without the other. 

I read a very interesting article on ESPN.com. http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/news/story?id=6391391 I don't know what the top earners in archery are making but I'm guessing that they earn more than the top woman's bowler or billiards champ. Since those two sports are regularly aired on ESPN, I'm surprised that TV exposure does not translate into bigger purses. I don't know if this info has anything to do with this thread but I thought I would throw it out there.


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## blueglide1

Chuck,I agree with Tom on a couple of points.And I think the reason that Euro archery is so popular compared to here is the fact that the hunting availability isnt as widespread over there as it is here.In the US anyone can go out to public land and bowhunt.Over there the land mass and availabilty to do it is very small,but anyone can be a target archer over there.That is why there are so many more target archers than Bowhunters.It the opposite effect.You are correct when you say the face to face comps are gaining popularity.At Lancaster this year,Steve Boylan and I had the most exciting shootoff of the tournament.I compared the nerves for me as the same or worse as the shootoff Dave Barnsdale and I had in my Vegas win last year.I think the head to head formats are the way of the future to put some excitement into a yawning spectator sport.At the tournaments all the talk is about whos in the shootoff,not what everyones daily score was.The shoot offs and face to face is what everyones waiting for.I think some format changes to put a charge in the sport would be a good thing for us all.Cant wait for the next challenger.LOL Don Ward
P.S. Chuck you have proven to me that you are really wanting to be involved as the next Pro Chair,good luck in the election!


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## sps3172

Mike2787 said:


> I read a very interesting article on ESPN.com. http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/news/story?id=6391391 I don't know what the top earners in archery are making but I'm guessing that they earn more than the top woman's bowler or billiards champ. Since those two sports are regularly aired on ESPN, I'm surprised that TV exposure does not translate into bigger purses. I don't know if this info has anything to do with this thread but I thought I would throw it out there.


I'm glad you mentioned this. I would have to think it has something to do with how many people have personally been bowling (most everyone...at least once) vs. how many people have ever shot a bow (very few). I've only been bowling perhaps 5 times in my life and I've wasted some time watching the Bowling Tour on TV, a time or two. As such, companies like 84 Lumber, etc. have gotten a chance to advertise to me....and they know it.

I also suspect that the reason the earnings are lower for pro bowlers or pro billiards players is that the average American doesn't buy their own equipment for those sports.....they head to a public alley or local bar and use their equipment. Less revenue for the manufacturers translates to less pay for the pros.

Luckily, the equipment required for archery is far more personalized (like golf) than that required to bowl or play billiards. Hopefully, you folks wouldn't have to worry that you earnings are ultimately capped by the same things that seem to plague pro billiards and bowling.


----------



## blueglide1

sps3172 said:


> I'm glad you mentioned this. I would have to think it has something to do with how many people have personally been bowling (most everyone...at least once) vs. how many people have ever shot a bow (very few). I've only been bowling perhaps 5 times in my life and I've wasted some time watching the Bowling Tour a time or two.


I think that Reo has a comparable purse, and endorsments to equal Mens Bowling and Mens Billards,and dont forget the ultimate-Sled Dogs,Iditirod at 50,000.00 he made more than that at Vegas alone.LOL


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## bigGP

blueglide1 said:


> I think that Reo has a comparable purse, and endorsments to equal Mens Bowling and Mens Billards,and dont forget the ultimate-Sled Dogs,Iditirod at 50,000.00 he made more than that at Vegas alone.LOL


Reo has had some good years but he is not the top earner in archery. Forgive my laziness but is that list EARNINGS or WINNINGS?


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## bigGP

I just read it. It does not include endorsements or other sponsorships? So by earnings they are referring to a base pay of winnings. Generally speaking the elite of any sports endorsements etc will be MORE then what they win annually.


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## blueglide1

Yes by winnings alone he only beats the dog sleds.LOL But if they included endorsments and contractuall earnings he would I think.Who is the top earner?


----------



## Brad HT

Cousins?


----------



## FV Chuck

blueglide1 said:


> Yes by winnings alone he only beats the dog sleds.LOL But if they included endorsments and contractuall earnings he would I think.Who is the top earner?


Might have been Hopkins?...although Chance had a SOLID run here not to long ago and was winning everything he touched


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## blueglide1

I guess I forgot to add in the 3D guys, TV hunters and personalities,like Wadell and the Morgans too.Im sure they are far above the target archers.


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## bigGP

Tv personalities on Hunting shows should NOT be included in this discussion as they of course are making way more then just a target archer…………. for now. It varies from year to year depending on who has the hot hand but of late in just tournament winnings alone (NOT sponsorships,endorsements,TV revenue etc) Levi is the hot hand right now. Jeff,Jesse,Reo,Chance,Darrin etc have had their years and probably will again but right meow its L.


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## I BOW 2

It would be nice to see the running tally / career earnings for each Pro Archer for the year. Kinda give everyone the real perception of what a full time archer does make. Ken


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## sps3172

I BOW 2 said:


> It would be nice to see the running tally / career earnings for each Pro Archer for the year. Kinda give everyone the real perception of what a full time archer does make. Ken


I think they could probably publish prize money, but publishing income form endorsements (as GP said...the MAJOR source of income) seems a little personal and unlikely to happen. I see what you're saying though....it might inspire more to give it a go if they knew what the potential upside was.


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## field14

sps3172 said:


> I think they could probably publish prize money, but publishing income form endorsements (as GP said...the MAJOR source of income) seems a little personal and unlikely to happen. I see what you're saying though....it might inspire more to give it a go if they knew what the potential upside was.


In addition, I know from current and past experience, that the "terms" of my contracts and how much I get are between me and the sponsor. I'm not permitted to divulge that information either to friends, and least-wise publicly. I'm just a "small timer" with my archery-related contracts, so can well imagine that other higher profiled archers have even more restrictions on releasing details of theirs. In addition, there are Privacy Act restrictions as well, among other things.

Of course all of the other professional sports do keep a running tally or YTD earnings....but they are, in all likelihood way, way off; but at least it is something.

field14 (Tom D.)


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## sps3172

I made mention of this point before but I’ve decided to beat this drum one more time, because I think it’s really important.

I need to start by saying that I have never hunted with a bow and have zero desire to change that. But, please realize that I am NOT anti-hunting. I grew up in a family of upland game hunters….my Dad raised and sold uber-expensive rabbit hunting dogs….etc. I only mention this because I wanted to clarify that, because I’m not currently a hunter, I may move in slightly different circles than a lot of you and as such, may be aware of opinions and perceptions that have escaped you.

Now…I recently saw a statistic that said that 67% of Americans were not apposed to hunting. I have to presume that, by default, 33% ARE apposed to it (please don't get wrapped around the axle over the actual numbers). Keep that in mind for a minute….

There is no such thing as a basketball vs. anti-basketball debate….no such thing as a golf vs. anti-golf debate….no such thing as a NASCAR vs. Anti-NASCAR debate. These sports may not interest everyone, but there aren’t any organized movements that appose their existence or instantly limit their audience. However, right wrong or indifferent, I AM aware of is a very real Hunting vs. Anti-Hunting debate in the United States. Do you think that allowing your sport to become entangled in this debate will, in any way, serve to maximize your earning potential? Remember…your paychecks will ultimately come from the consumer’s pockets and the larger the number of consumers, the larger your paychecks. Why limit your audience by 33% right off the bat?

I personally believe that the Archery industry is currently squeezing every nickel it can out of the ‘Pro Hunting’ public. They seem to have demonstrated that investing in a TV personality that produces a hunting show is the most effective way to spend their advertising dollars. If you think I’m wrong, compare salaries between these TV personalities and that of professional target archers (3D, spot shooting, etc.). GP….correct me here if need be. I got the impression, from one of your posts, that these TV folks out-earned tournament archers quite handily.

If you, as professional target/tournament archers, can create a ‘sport’ that isn’t burdened by having elements of society that are instantly turned off by you, because they associate your sport with hunting, AND combine that with the existing ‘pro-hunting’ archery community (as we all know that many folks cross over…target to hunting), you can effectively DOUBLE DIP. Your audience could be MUCH LARGER that even that of the famous TV hunting personalities. Read above if you need a reminder as to what a larger audience can bring…..CHA CHING!! 

This ‘disconnection’ from hunting would need to be very thorough. It may need to go as far as a separate web site for ‘target specific’ gear (think of the Hoyt recurve-only site). It might mean the professional tournament archers would subscribe to a dress code that avoided camouflage. It might even take the form of the same company adopting a different brand name where the target sector was concerned. However….what you couldn’t afford to have happening is for a perspective fan or participant to be ‘turned off’ to your sport because they happen to be ‘anti-hunting’ and see a dead animal when they visit your sponsor’s website.

I realize this is a wild idea…..perhaps too wild. But I thought I’d throw it out there anyway. Has this been discussed?


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## FV Chuck

sps3172 said:


> I made mention of this point before but I’ve decided to beat this drum one more time, because I think it’s really important.
> 
> I need to start by saying that I have never hunted with a bow and have zero desire to change that. But, please realize that I am NOT anti-hunting. I grew up in a family of upland game hunters….my Dad raised and sold uber-expensive rabbit hunting dogs….etc. I only mention this because I wanted to clarify that, because I’m not currently a hunter, I may move in slightly different circles than a lot of you and as such, may be aware of opinions and perceptions that have escaped you.
> 
> Now…I recently saw a statistic that said that 67% of Americans were not apposed to hunting. I have to presume that, by default, 33% ARE apposed to it (please don't get wrapped around the axle over the actual numbers). Keep that in mind for a minute….
> 
> There is no such thing as a basketball vs. anti-basketball debate….no such thing as a golf vs. anti-golf debate….no such thing as a NASCAR vs. Anti-NASCAR debate. These sports may not interest everyone, but there aren’t any organized movements that appose their existence or instantly limit their audience. However, right wrong or indifferent, I AM aware of is a very real Hunting vs. Anti-Hunting debate in the United States. Do you think that allowing your sport to become entangled in this debate will, in any way, serve to maximize your earning potential? Remember…your paychecks will ultimately come from the consumer’s pockets and the larger the number of consumers, the larger your paychecks. Why limit your audience by 33% right off the bat?
> 
> I personally believe that the Archery industry is currently squeezing every nickel it can out of the ‘Pro Hunting’ public. They seem to have demonstrated that investing in a TV personality that produces a hunting show is the most effective way to spend their advertising dollars. If you think I’m wrong, compare salaries between these TV personalities and that of professional target archers (3D, spot shooting, etc.). GP….correct me here if need be. I got the impression, from one of your posts, that these TV folks out-earned tournament archers quite handily.
> 
> If you, as professional target/tournament archers, can create a ‘sport’ that isn’t burdened by having elements of society that are instantly turned off by you, because they associate your sport with hunting, AND combine that with the existing ‘pro-hunting’ archery community (as we all know that many folks cross over…target to hunting), you can effectively DOUBLE DIP. Your audience could be MUCH LARGER that even that of the famous TV hunting personalities. Read above if you need a reminder as to what a larger audience can bring…..CHA CHING!!
> 
> This ‘disconnection’ from hunting would need to be very thorough. It may need to go as far as a separate web site for ‘target specific’ gear (think of the Hoyt recurve-only site). It might mean the professional tournament archers would subscribe to a dress code that avoided camouflage. It might even take the form of the same company adopting a different brand name where the target sector was concerned. However….what you couldn’t afford to have happening is for a perspective fan or participant to be ‘turned off’ to your sport because they happen to be ‘anti-hunting’ and see a dead animal when they visit your sponsor’s website.
> 
> I realize this is a wild idea…..perhaps too wild. But I thought I’d throw it out there anyway. Has this been discussed?


Not completely fleshed out but very very well done.... and EXCELLENT points. Paragraph 3 was like a shot to the head... ! Nice point
Not as wild an idea as you might imagine.... I could see the vision.


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## bigGP

sps3172 said:


> I made mention of this point before but I’ve decided to beat this drum one more time, because I think it’s really important.
> 
> I need to start by saying that I have never hunted with a bow and have zero desire to change that. But, please realize that I am NOT anti-hunting. I grew up in a family of upland game hunters….my Dad raised and sold uber-expensive rabbit hunting dogs….etc. I only mention this because I wanted to clarify that, because I’m not currently a hunter, I may move in slightly different circles than a lot of you and as such, may be aware of opinions and perceptions that have escaped you.
> 
> Now…I recently saw a statistic that said that 67% of Americans were not apposed to hunting. I have to presume that, by default, 33% ARE apposed to it (please don't get wrapped around the axle over the actual numbers). Keep that in mind for a minute….
> 
> There is no such thing as a basketball vs. anti-basketball debate….no such thing as a golf vs. anti-golf debate….no such thing as a NASCAR vs. Anti-NASCAR debate. These sports may not interest everyone, but there aren’t any organized movements that appose their existence or instantly limit their audience. However, right wrong or indifferent, I AM aware of is a very real Hunting vs. Anti-Hunting debate in the United States. Do you think that allowing your sport to become entangled in this debate will, in any way, serve to maximize your earning potential? Remember…your paychecks will ultimately come from the consumer’s pockets and the larger the number of consumers, the larger your paychecks. Why limit your audience by 33% right off the bat?
> 
> I personally believe that the Archery industry is currently squeezing every nickel it can out of the ‘Pro Hunting’ public. They seem to have demonstrated that investing in a TV personality that produces a hunting show is the most effective way to spend their advertising dollars. If you think I’m wrong, compare salaries between these TV personalities and that of professional target archers (3D, spot shooting, etc.). GP….correct me here if need be. I got the impression, from one of your posts, that these TV folks out-earned tournament archers quite handily.
> 
> If you, as professional target/tournament archers, can create a ‘sport’ that isn’t burdened by having elements of society that are instantly turned off by you, because they associate your sport with hunting, AND combine that with the existing ‘pro-hunting’ archery community (as we all know that many folks cross over…target to hunting), you can effectively DOUBLE DIP. Your audience could be MUCH LARGER that even that of the famous TV hunting personalities. Read above if you need a reminder as to what a larger audience can bring…..CHA CHING!!
> 
> This ‘disconnection’ from hunting would need to be very thorough. It may need to go as far as a separate web site for ‘target specific’ gear (think of the Hoyt recurve-only site). It might mean the professional tournament archers would subscribe to a dress code that avoided camouflage. It might even take the form of the same company adopting a different brand name where the target sector was concerned. However….what you couldn’t afford to have happening is for a perspective fan or participant to be ‘turned off’ to your sport because they happen to be ‘anti-hunting’ and see a dead animal when they visit your sponsor’s website.
> 
> I realize this is a wild idea…..perhaps too wild. But I thought I’d throw it out there anyway. Has this been discussed?




Good post brotha! And on point.


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## 2fingers

Some people are talking about "elite" pro's. I know some "elite" pro's that have not won much BUT spend a ton of time PROmoting our great sport. I would call them "ELITE"! I also know some pro's that win and there attitude STINKS as far as promoting our great sport. I feel the "pro's" should have a higher standard. Be it dress, attitude, support, and/or promoting our great sport. The "pro's" should have a booth at Vegas/nationals to promote PRO archery. There are so many people that ask how/where/why can/should I join the "pro's". The "pro's" need to be accessible to the general archer.

Target archery as a “pro” needs a new format for TV. Shooting 120 arrows then a shoot off that can take a few minute or too much time is something we cannot put on TV. We need a format like the Lancaster/fita shoot offs that takes a set amount of time (head to head matches) to have something that could be put on TV.

It is great that the Redding shoot will be taped/maybe put on TV. This is a great step.


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## FV Chuck

2fingers said:


> Some people are talking about "elite" pro's. I know some "elite" pro's that have not won much BUT spend a ton of time PROmoting our great sport. I would call them "ELITE"! I also know some pro's that win and there attitude STINKS as far as promoting our great sport. I feel the "pro's" should have a higher standard. Be it dress, attitude, support, and/or promoting our great sport. The "pro's" should have a booth at Vegas/nationals to promote PRO archery. There are so many people that ask how/where/why can/should I join the "pro's". The "pro's" need to be accessible to the general archer.
> 
> Target archery as a “pro” needs a new format for TV. Shooting 120 arrows then a shoot off that can take a few minute or too much time is something we cannot put on TV. We need a format like the Lancaster/fita shoot offs that takes a set amount of time (head to head matches) to have something that could be put on TV.
> 
> It is great that the Redding shoot will be taped/maybe put on TV. This is a great step.


Fingers-

It's really pretty cool the TV thing.... totally optimistic that it will be a great springboard for us. It think it will be important to view it that way, at least I will be anyway.

The booth thing... kind of funny you mentioned it. I had some conversations with GRIV (hes the one who does booths for NFAA/Vegas) and asked him how cool would it be if we had something like a merch booth with posters, autograph sessions, flyers and info on the Pro division, schedules and all sorts of things. He's pretty cool with it and thought it sounded like a good idea but we need to work with the NFAA to get it approved (free booth, you wouldnt think it's a problem but still need to work the system properly).... and then need to flesh it out for some better ideas and things like that. 

New format...thats going to be a tough one...I think the best way forward would be to try and meet with some TV people and get their opinion on what is exciting to them and how they could film it with some excitement an things... and then go back and try to adapt or build a new game to fit their mold. That topic is going to be a toughie... there will be LOTS and LOTS of opinions. My vote would be to let the guys writing the big fat check be the guidance LOL !!!!...but again we have much to do before this one is worth fighting over....all in good time fingers, all in good time


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