# Tough Landowner situation...how would you handle this?



## AlwaysSwitchbck (Oct 2, 2012)

The guy made an honest mistake. Maybe see if you can somehow lower the price next year or something. Try to make a deal or just let it go.


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## jrmsoccer32 (Feb 22, 2007)

Be the bigger person it's just a deer. You made some kid the happiest hunter alive. Maybe ask for a monetary reimbursement but don't blow it out of proportion. That's awful it sucks but there's nothing you can do now except be happy for the kid.


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## sleeperls (Feb 19, 2009)

Doesnt sound like a guy i want to lease from.

You pay for sole rights. Get your money back.


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## nomansland (Sep 12, 2008)

I'd want my money back plain and simple.


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## Jenn79 (Apr 6, 2010)

I would probably have a talk with the landowner about the amount of money that you pay to hunt there and how much time and money you have invested into managing the deer and make sure he is aware that it's not right that you pay for exclusive hunting rights when he did something like this. You ask what to do and what is there to do... You could do many things... The thing is what do YOU want to come of it? Think about that and then let the landowner know what you think is fair.


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## Midwestvest (Feb 3, 2012)

Let me add this to the equation...I really think it is a lapse in judgement even though it is a pretty big one. I am not looking to leave this farm but think something needs to come out of it. What % reimbursement are we talking about? The landowner even knew that this was our target deer this year...was familiar with it, etc. Said "his heart sunk" when he saw it and knew he had messed up bad.


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## QS34Reaper (Nov 2, 2011)

Honestly......I would explain to him (the landowner) the amount of time and money you had invested on that deer and see if he would give you a percentage off for resigning next year. Obviously a good guy buy manning up and calling you. Make it sound good for you but don't come across angry or upset. Then I would call the kid and congratulate him on shooting a world class deer. After all he is just a kid and this may be his buck of a lifetime and your congrats may be what he needs in his life right now. Everything happens for a reason! Good luck with the situation.


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## mazdamitch333 (Nov 8, 2009)

Tough choice. I guess it would depend on you wanting to hunt there again or not. If you were leasing it for that one deer then you may want to to ask for your money back. If there are more to choose from ask for a discounted rate. Any pictures of this deer that was taken?


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## Midwestvest (Feb 3, 2012)

mazdamitch333 said:


> Tough choice. I guess it would depend on you wanting to hunt there again or not. If you were leasing it for that one deer then you may want to to ask for your money back. If there are more to choose from ask for a discounted rate. Any pictures of this deer that was taken?


We haven't seen pics yet but our landowner said "its the one you were after." I would rather not post any pics until it is 100% confirmed...it is that kind of world class deer.


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## bulpitt62b (Aug 12, 2012)

I can understand the frustration of the situation. I think there are a few ways to look at this. You stated that a lot of time and money have been invested in this venture already. You could possible get your money back if you felt thats the way to go, but never your time. If it were me I would have to give the landowner the benefit of a doubt and realize mistakes happen. Hunt this year out and see how things go. Surely there are other trophy bucks on the propety. The other way to look at this situation is simply a breech of contract. Depending on how the agreement is written, a full refund could be in order. If you have other prime places to hunt then this could possibly be your answer. If it were myself in your situation the way you described it, I would stick it out this year and see what happens.


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## I like Meat (Feb 14, 2009)

Suck it up and make sure he dosnt pull that crap again.....also, see if he'll give a brake on the $$ for next season....just hope he dosnt want to let a "relative" or buddy out there next....to me, exclusive means exclusive....that is why I and my buddy lease(well, did).....I want full rights to the place when I'm out there, no "my nephew will be out there next week" type of crap.....I have something similar going on right now.....my Good friend the landowner has had me lease for 17 years and I was considered caretaker of the place.....he and his wife passed all in one year....property went to the son and daughter...daughter could care less....., however, He has now broke up the season as to who's on it by certain weeks and has 3 other guys on the place hunting all the foodplots I put in and using the place after 17 years of having it to myself, as his Dad had wanted..... sucks big time....If I cant lease it exclusively, I'm done with it and will find another with an exclusive lease.... I dont play nice with others....


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## G20 (Jan 31, 2008)

I would be angry but if its a great piece of property and I believed it was an isolated incident (you believe the landowner) then I would let it slide this time after a good sit down with the landowner. Nothing you can do will change what happened at this point. I guess you could sue and see about recouping some cost but that might be long and drawn out. Personally,it wouldn't be worth it to me.


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## Midwestvest (Feb 3, 2012)

btw, I agree about all the sentiment directed towards the kid and I am especially glad it happened to a kid, not some random adult. It just sucks when you have 3 years of history with an animal, pass him so many times, watch him grow up, film him, etc...then you feel like the rug gets pulled out from under you.


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## 1shot1 (Oct 14, 2013)

You have leased the land for a few years, and "he made a mistake'??? It would make me wonder what other "mistakes" he has made...
I'd want a full refund for this year and find another lease, he broke the terms...


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## harleybuilder (Nov 10, 2011)

He made the mistake of giving permission for them to hunt, since you have the exclusive hunting/lease rights to the property, but you don't/didn't have exclusive hunting/lease rights on the deer..If you have the great relationship/friendship that you say you do chalk up as a mistake and move on...............


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## sticknstring33 (Nov 17, 2008)

Damn, that would suck. Honestly think it's fair to ask for a full refund this year. He broke the written agreement. Pretty big deal whether it was an honest lapse in judgement or not. That buck is the reason you pay the money and do all the work. Now that opportunity is gone. I'd want some compensation, but not at the expense of ruining the relationship or ending the lease.


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## Fulldraw1972 (Jan 6, 2012)

Like said above, depends if you want to continue to hunt there. 
If you do want to continue hunting there. Me personally I wouldn't ask for money back. I would express your concerns and ask that it don't happen again. If you want to move on then I would ask for your money back.


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## deerhuntinsunof (Mar 15, 2012)

Id ask for 50% of the lease fees back I mean a deer as you describe would be 5000+ on a guided hunt


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## gatorbait42 (Jun 17, 2007)

If it's a place you want to keep and you don't think the guy intentionally tried to screw you then ask him to waive your fee for next year. Then get everything and anything that could possibly come up in a new lease agreement. You can't replace your time with money but being able to hunt for free next year would make me forget about it.


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## Midwestvest (Feb 3, 2012)

I don't want to move on, I love the farm and the entire situation. The landowner was distraught when he called, owned up to his mistake, and feels terrible. I am confident that nothing like this has happened before. When I asked him why he allowed it he said "Midwestvest, there was a little 11 year old boy asking to hunt with his dad and in the moment I jsut couldn't turn him down...I don't know what I was thinking." 

But I just don't know how to process this. Should I ask for a discount on next year's lease? How much? He knows what that deer meant to me. 

Also, if that deer had been killed off our property it is fine...but it doesn't matter whether anyone "leases the deer or not." I have the rights to hunt whatever deer are on the property, and no one else does. The deer was killed on the property, end of discussion (harleybuilder).


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## Timinator (Feb 10, 2012)

Suck it up I guess. Kid shot a deer of a lifetime, yours! You did everything you could right, something better will probably come from this you never could have fathomed.


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## chaded (Jan 15, 2011)

harleybuilder said:


> He made the mistake of giving permission for them to hunt, since you have the exclusive hunting/lease rights to the property, but you don't/didn't have exclusive hunting/lease rights on the deer..If you have the great relationship/friendship that you say you do chalk up as a mistake and move on...............


I think the point here is that the deer would likely not of been shot by the person that shot it if they had not being hunting on the property that he leases and should not have been on. It's great that a kid shot it but that really would not matter to me. Nothing against the kid or his father because they were given permission so can't blame them. The landowner is 100% at fault here and should make it right. However they want to work it out. I personally would have to sit and think about what I would do because my initial reaction would be a full refund for violating the lease agreement and I would be looking elsewhere.


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## GVDocHoliday (Jan 20, 2003)

Question, over the last couple of previous years did you harvest good quality animals? Animals that you'd consider worth your time and money at the time?

If yes, I'd chalk this up as a one time blunder. He came clean and I can respect that. I would be looking to recoup any lease fees for this year. Then continuation of your current agreement from here on out for your normal rate. Though you may need to be more strict with the wording of your lease agreement to include possible legal action.


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## WVohioFAN (Jun 5, 2011)

Midwestvest said:


> btw, I agree about all the sentiment directed towards the kid and I am especially glad it happened to a kid, not some random adult. It just sucks when you have 3 years of history with an animal, pass him so many times, watch him grow up, film him, etc...then you feel like the rug gets pulled out from under you.


You pay for sole rights. Sole rights you were not afforded. Ask for your $ back. This guy doesn't sound like someone that I'd want to lease from.


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## nicko (Feb 17, 2006)

Well, he broke the lease agreement and nobody could fault you for getting what you have coming to you per the terms of the lease. I'm sure the money you have invested is not peanuts. You know the landowner so only you know if this is an isolated incident. But I can't help but wonder if the only reason he came clean to you is because the kid killed your target buck and he knew word about the kill and where it happened would make it's way back to you.

Personally, I'd let him know that you still want to hunt the rest of the season on the property but you want to enforce the terms of the lease and get whatever refund is due to you for him violating the terms. After the season, you can have a sit down a talk about whether or not you want to continue the business relationship and the concerns you have moving forward.

It sounds like you have a good relationship with the landowner but you may need to put that aside to deal with this situation to ensure you are compensated fairly. Good luck and let us know what you decide to do.


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## sleeperls (Feb 19, 2009)

Its simple. 

You pay to hunt there. 

You dont pay for him to let others hunt there. I dont give a darn how many puppy eyes you give me. I enjoy taking kids hunting and putting them on giants. Leased land is leased land period. They knew about that deer or they wouldnt have bothered asking imho.

Get refund...


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## ackool1234 (Sep 11, 2012)

i would let it go. you already said the guy is a standup guy and just made a mistake. The kid got lucky and he will remember that for the rest of his life. Its not worth losing as lease like that for. The ground must be good to produce a deer like that to start off with, and i'd bet it won't be long before you get another deer of that class. I will say if it was just anyone that went and got permission we would have a problem but with it being a kid i would just let it go.


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## zeewhiteone (Oct 31, 2010)

In for the pics....


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## harleybuilder (Nov 10, 2011)

Midwestvest said:


> I don't want to move on, I love the farm and the entire situation. The landowner was distraught when he called, owned up to his mistake, and feels terrible. I am confident that nothing like this has happened before. When I asked him why he allowed it he said "Midwestvest, there was a little 11 year old boy asking to hunt with his dad and in the moment I jsut couldn't turn him down...I don't know what I was thinking."
> 
> But I just don't know how to process this. Should I ask for a discount on next year's lease? How much? He knows what that deer meant to me.
> 
> Also, if that deer had been killed off our property it is fine...but it doesn't matter whether anyone "leases the deer or not." I have the rights to hunt whatever deer are on the property, and no one else does. The deer was killed on the property, end of discussion (harleybuilder).


You are correct that you have the right to hunt whatever deer that are on the property,and that landowner made the decision to allow the young man to hunt whatever deer was on the property....A mistake was made....


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## sticknstring33 (Nov 17, 2008)

> When I asked him why he allowed it he said "Midwestvest, there was a little 11 year old boy asking to hunt with his dad and in the moment I jsut couldn't turn him down...I don't know what I was thinking."


That reminds me, I need to start taking my 4 yr old w/ me when asking for permission next year!


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## WVohioFAN (Jun 5, 2011)

How many other puppy dog eyed kids or "pals" has he let hunt without your knowledge? I'm guessing the only reason you got a call is because he knew word of the buck would make it's way back to you.

Red Flags everywhere.


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## shaffer88 (Dec 3, 2007)

If I was in your boots and things were little different . Let's say he called and asked if he could have a neighbor kid hunt it for youth weekend. I being a hunter who wants to help kids and can understand when it comes time for my kid to ask for his own hunting permission I would say yes only for the weekend it's a non rut situation. He hunts he kills a giant. **it happens he bred for the last couple years offspring are still around. Good luck. And let's see some photos of this giant you been saving until this nov.


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## Midwestvest (Feb 3, 2012)

I will ultimately make the decision that rests right in my heart, but you guys are bringing up good points from both sides! Part of me thinks I should receive a full refund regardless of what I decide to do, whether we stay or not, the other part thinks I should have a reduced price next year, and part of me wants to just let it go. If It had been ANY OTHER DEER ON THE FARM I wouldn't be this conflicted.

Yes, this property has produced top notch deer over the years for me, but this one was a once-in-a-lifetime buck regardless of how good your property was.


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## P&y only (Feb 26, 2009)

Since you apparently did nothing wrong I would reverse the situation and explain how you feel and ask the landowner what HE is going to do to rectify the situation..


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## WVohioFAN (Jun 5, 2011)

Midwestvest said:


> I will ultimately make the decision that rests right in my heart, but you guys are bringing up good points from both sides! Part of me thinks I should receive a full refund regardless of what I decide to do, whether we stay or not, the other part thinks I should have a reduced price next year, and part of me wants to just let it go. If It had been ANY OTHER DEER ON THE FARM I wouldn't be this conflicted.
> 
> Yes, this property has produced top notch deer over the years for me, but this one was a once-in-a-lifetime buck regardless of how good your property was.


I gathered that you live far away from this property. I wouldn't be a bit surprised if your farmer 'friend' didn't put his buddy(don't think for a second this wasn't a friend of his because it was) and his kid in the right spot. Call me a cynic.


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## Mr. Man (Sep 19, 2011)

Oh man, if it was a world class deer, the only thing that could make this better is if North American Whitetail does a story on it. How bad would that suck? Maybe they could interview the OP.


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## Midwestvest (Feb 3, 2012)

Mr. Man said:


> Oh man, if it was a world class deer, the only thing that could make this better is if North American Whitetail does a story on it. How bad would that suck? Maybe they could interview the OP.


I think I would laugh and cry at the same time.


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## BP1992 (Dec 24, 2010)

I would be absolutely irate! Not much you can do though without ticking him off.


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## jasboj (Feb 7, 2011)

This is a bad situation all the way around. I feel for you! On another note MAN y'all take this stuff WAY serious! ITS ONLY A DEER! There's more than one in the woods. If you have a good thing going with landowner chalk it up and move on. I can promise this, it sucks way worse to lose a great spot to hunt than it does to lose one target deer. Trust me.


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## Midwestvest (Feb 3, 2012)

jasboj said:


> This is a bad situation all the way around. I feel for you! On another note MAN y'all take this stuff WAY serious! ITS ONLY A DEER! There's more than one in the woods. If you have a good thing going with landowner chalk it up and move on. I can promise this, it sucks way worse to lose a great spot to hunt than it does to lose one target deer. Trust me.


Yeah, I hear you, but there really isn't more than one of these in the woods, I can promise you that.


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## Binney59 (Nov 28, 2008)

Sorry to hear about the situation, certainly not an easy way to go about it. I would approach the landowner, letting him know my frustrations with the event and see how he goes about it. If he genuinely feels bad and it was an honest mistake he should offer some way that he thinks could make it up to you- that starts the dialogue. If he does not seem too concerned then he is not as good of a friend as you thought. 

Assuming that he "wants to make it up to you" I would have him promise that it will not happen again and then ask him to knock off what ever he thinks is fair. I would not get too greedy with my requests because A) he is a friend B) it was a genuine mistake and C) it doesn't sound like he would have a hard time just leasing it out to someone else. 

It sucks but there are still other deer in the area and more will grow to be big in time. A long term, stable lease is worth an awful lot in most places. Good luck.


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## WVohioFAN (Jun 5, 2011)

jasboj said:


> This is a bad situation all the way around. I feel for you! On another note MAN y'all take this stuff WAY serious! ITS ONLY A DEER! There's more than one in the woods. If you have a good thing going with landowner chalk it up and move on. I can promise this, it sucks way worse to lose a great spot to hunt than it does to lose one target deer. Trust me.



Easy for you to say. You're not the one with thousands invested. Not to mention a heart set on a world class buck. Good deer or not, it would be my last year doing business with said farmer. The OP obviously has the means to find other property......property where the lease agreement wouldn't be broken.


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## slinger (Jul 25, 2003)

You can either make a big deal out of it and lose your friend and hunting spot over 1 deer, or let it go.


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## WhiteTailFevah (Nov 6, 2011)

So has the landowner offered to do anything? Has he made any reference to doing something to make this up to you?
I also feel like after talking to him a little I would ask the landowner what he thinks would be fair to get a feel for where he is at. Who knows he might offer you more then you would ever ask for...


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## nicko (Feb 17, 2006)

I think the only way to handle this now is to give the landowner's contact info to Jackie Bushman and Buckmasters.


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## CardiacBH (Aug 17, 2013)

I know it sucks but I'd move on. Have a heart to heart with the land owner to try and feel him out about some kind of reimbursement for next season. It sounds like you've got a honey hole and if I was you, I wouldn't cause to much friction over it. Just allow him (landowner) to make the move on making it better. Life is to short to dwell on the past now, let the path of being a better man lead you in the right direction and a promising place to hunt in the future.


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## Midwestvest (Feb 3, 2012)

WhiteTailFevah said:


> So has the landowner offered to do anything? Has he made any reference to doing something to make this up to you?


We didn't broach that over the phone. I just got all of the details of the situation and told him I needed to sit on it. I will be up there in 2 weeks and we will have a face to face.


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## WhiteTailFevah (Nov 6, 2011)

Midwestvest said:


> We didn't broach that over the phone. I just got all of the details of the situation and told him I needed to sit on it. I will be up there in 2 weeks and we will have a face to face.


I also feel like after talking to him a little I would ask the landowner what he thinks would be fair to get a feel for where he is at. Who knows he might offer you more then you would ever ask for..


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## newview (Sep 28, 2010)

Look for another lease. Bottom line is the landowner will decide who will hunt when. If you aren't satisfied; move on.


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## Voldy27 (Oct 17, 2012)

I would be asking for money back on this years lease. You paid for the rights this year and were not given them. I would also put something in the lease for next year with it spelled out, if someone other me hunts this property a full refund will be given. 

For all the guys saying its just a deer, it is, but that deer would not have been killed that weekend if it was not for the landowner allowing permission to hunt it. It would be no different if someone trespassed on your property and shot a giant you were after. I can guarntee you would not be saying its just a deer.

I have had plenty of target bucks shot by the neighbors and that hurts to see them in someone elses truck, but this would make me sick!


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## goathollow (Jun 18, 2008)

Well this is a tough one. On one hand I can see how from a strict contractual sense you may be entitled to some restitution. But before pursuing that I would suggest you ask yourself a simple question that only you can answer. Will you really feel better if he coughs up part of the lease payment? Be honest with yourself, if the answer is no, then I would sit down with the landowner and simply tell him how disappointed you are that he faulted on the lease agreement and ask him to never let it happen again. Easing his pain/guilt may go a long way towards keeping that lease for a long, long time. Instead of killing a world class buck you just might create a world class friend. I'd take the latter over the former any day.

I would also ask him to have the young man and his father come there while you are present so you can see pictures of the buck and hear this kid's story. Hearing about it might actually ease the pain. I'll bet that young man's grin will be from ear to ear and his excitement will be off the chart. I had something similar happen to me last year. I had a couple buddies down to my cabin to deer hunt. When they arrived they asked if there were any deer around they should not shoot. Half kidding I mentioned the big 12 point I had on a couple of trail cams that I would like to save for myself. Low and behold that 12 point walked right under the one of their stands and all he did was take pictures of him from 10 yds. I felt like a total butt head when he showed me the pics. He was just fine with it but I was guilt ridden for the next month until I got an email from him with a picture attached of a monster 10 pt he took on his dad's farm. Needless to say he was very excited. The 10 pt probably scored higher than the 12. We have a one buck rule in Indiana so had he shot "my" 12 pt he couldn't have shot the 10pt. I was totally relieved. This is why I'm thinking you might also feel some relief if you talk to the boy who shot "your" deer and can feel his excitement. And by the way, "my" 12 pt has not been seen since that day! I don't know if he went somewhere and got killed, died from old age, died in a fight, etc. I almost think he was put there to teach me a lesson in humility and selflessness.


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## Jimmy Anderson (Aug 24, 2012)

I wouldn't force the issue if I were you. I can certainly understand your are heart broken over the situation. That's a tough pill to swallow. It's hard as a lessee because landowners tend to be unforgiving when you break the lease but they tend to hold all of the power when they break it. Unless you want to go to small claims court over it, which I would advise against, I think you need to just let it go. When you meet face to face, I would see if he offers you a discount or a refund, but like I mentioned before I wouldn't push it. Sounds like he made an honest mistake in letting someone else hunt it and even though it was a kid, a deal's a deal. If you have a long standing good relationship with the landowner and you know that the property is capable of producing trophy deer, I wouldn't do anything to prevent you from harvesting other wall hangers in the future. Good luck!


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## Midwestvest (Feb 3, 2012)

goathollow said:


> Well this is a tough one. On one hand I can see how from a strict contractual sense you may be entitled to some restitution. But before pursuing that I would suggest you ask yourself a simple question that only you can answer. Will you really feel better if he coughs up part of the lease payment? Be honest with yourself, if the answer is no, then I would sit down with the landowner and simply tell him how disappointed you are that he faulted on the lease agreement and ask him to never let it happen again. Easing his pain/guilt may go a long way towards keeping that lease for a long, long time.
> 
> I would also ask him to have the young man and his father come there while you are present so you can see pictures of the buck and hear this kid's story. Hearing about it might actually ease the pain. I'll bet that young man's grin will be from ear to ear and his excitement will be off the chart. I had something similar happen to me last year. I had a couple buddies down to my cabin to deer hunt. When they arrived they asked if there were any deer around they should not shoot. Half kidding I mentioned the big 12 point I had on a couple of trail cams that I would like to save for myself. Low and behold that 12 point walked right under the one of their stands and all he did was take pictures of him from 10 yds. I felt like a total butt head when he showed me the pics. He was just fine with it but I was guilt ridden for the next month until I got an email from him with a picture attached of a monster 10 pt he took on his dad's farm. Needless to say he was very excited. The 10 pt probably scored higher than the 12. We have a one buck rule in Indiana so had he shot "my" 12 pt he couldn't have shot the 10pt. I was totally relieved. This is why I'm thinking you might also feel some relief if you talk to the boy who shot "your" deer and can feel his excitement. And by the way, "my" 12 pt has not been seen since that day! I don't know if he went somewhere and got killed, died from old age, died in a fight, etc. I almost think he was put there to teach me a lesson in humility and selflessness.


You are full of wisdom!


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## NC Kansas (Nov 28, 2009)

If he let them, he's probably let others.


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## WVohioFAN (Jun 5, 2011)

NC Kansas said:


> If he let them, he's probably let others.


Ding Ding Ding


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## goathollow (Jun 18, 2008)

Midwestvest said:


> You are full of wisdom!


I've been told before that I'm full of "IT", but I'm not sure those people were talking about wisdom. :wink:


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## ilhunter997 (May 4, 2012)

Man that sucks! I would probably ask for a 25% discount next year. 

Any pics of the world class deer?


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## Yichi (Dec 18, 2008)

goathollow said:


> Well this is a tough one. On one hand I can see how from a strict contractual sense you may be entitled to some restitution. But before pursuing that I would suggest you ask yourself a simple question that only you can answer. Will you really feel better if he coughs up part of the lease payment? Be honest with yourself, if the answer is no, then I would sit down with the landowner and simply tell him how disappointed you are that he faulted on the lease agreement and ask him to never let it happen again. Easing his pain/guilt may go a long way towards keeping that lease for a long, long time. Instead of killing a world class buck you just might create a world class friend. I'd take the latter over the former any day.
> 
> I would also ask him to have the young man and his father come there while you are present so you can see pictures of the buck and hear this kid's story. Hearing about it might actually ease the pain. I'll bet that young man's grin will be from ear to ear and his excitement will be off the chart. I had something similar happen to me last year. I had a couple buddies down to my cabin to deer hunt. When they arrived they asked if there were any deer around they should not shoot. Half kidding I mentioned the big 12 point I had on a couple of trail cams that I would like to save for myself. Low and behold that 12 point walked right under the one of their stands and all he did was take pictures of him from 10 yds. I felt like a total butt head when he showed me the pics. He was just fine with it but I was guilt ridden for the next month until I got an email from him with a picture attached of a monster 10 pt he took on his dad's farm. Needless to say he was very excited. The 10 pt probably scored higher than the 12. We have a one buck rule in Indiana so had he shot "my" 12 pt he couldn't have shot the 10pt. I was totally relieved. This is why I'm thinking you might also feel some relief if you talk to the boy who shot "your" deer and can feel his excitement. And by the way, "my" 12 pt has not been seen since that day! I don't know if he went somewhere and got killed, died from old age, died in a fight, etc. I almost think he was put there to teach me a lesson in humility and selflessness.


Your best option is right here.


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## ohiobooners (Mar 31, 2008)

I'm usually a very big hearted person. That being said I am also a businessman. Regardless of how much you enjoy one another's company this is still a business transaction. If it wasn't you would have hunting rights for free. 

He might be a stand up guy but he knew when he gave permission he was breaking all the rules. I would not lease from him again. Had the boy not killed would he have told you? I know it's just a deer but its a deer you spent hard earned money to chase. I would tell him that you kept your end of the deal by paying, he needed to keep his. Grown ups have consequences in life. Losing a great lessee like yourself might be his. It sounds harsh over a deer, but it's principle. It was an agreement between two men. Agree to keep what you can of the friendship but you will have the sour taste in your mouth for a while. Move on and spend the money you work hard for somewhere it will be treated responsibly


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## Liv4Rut (Mar 24, 2006)

Man that is a tough one. The landowner should of said no or at leaat gave the hunters your information to ask. It didnt happen to take place in eastern, ia by chance did it. Got a velvet field scope pic of world class deer shot by a youth hunter however the harvest photos had not surfaced yet.


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## PSUBowhunter (Jul 10, 2006)

I would be more pissed at myself for being upset about a kid shooting a big buck.

We all complain about the future of our youth, yet we continue to be so greedy with something that was once a past time.


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## crawdad (Jul 21, 2008)

OP, you already said you don't want to leave the lease, so I think you are wondering if you should ask for a free lease or discount next year. How many bucks have you taken on average each season? How many of this class have you taken? If you took this buck and no other deer in a given season, would you feel satisfied with that season? If so, that buck is worth approx. your lease fee. (?)

Be realistic and do some cold, passion-free math to determine how much money that buck was worth to you. Then throw in the fact that you may never have killed it, and discount it some more because you love the place and value the friendship. Have that rough idea in the back of your head for when you talk to him about it.

Good luck, I thought I had finally found the lease I would stay in, and after 3 years, the landowner decided he wanted only family to hunt it. At least my friend who ran the lease gets to stay, so far, as he has been keeping it up for 20 years. I have found nothing close to as good so far.


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## Speedykills (Apr 16, 2010)

AlwaysSwitchbck said:


> The guy made an honest mistake. Maybe see if you can somehow lower the price next year or something. Try to make a deal or just let it go.


 land is so hard to come buy I would just eat it and move on......there will be plenty deer in your life time.If you have a honey hole I wouldn't push it with land owner good luck.


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## NYSBowman (Aug 21, 2012)

sleeperls said:


> Its simple.
> 
> You pay to hunt there.
> 
> ...


I agree. Nobody makes a mistake....and ACCIDENTALLY gives permission for someone to hunt. Especially on land that is leased to someone else.

My guess? They figured they'd let the kid hunt there(and kill a deer)....thinking that you'd be none the wiser. And since the buck was huge(and known).....he called you with the sob story.

I'd insist on either a refund.....or a HUGE discount on next seasons lease.

The whole "turn the other cheek" mentality rarely helps. Most people see that as weakness....and will crap all over you again.

It's easier for some here to say, "Let it go" cause it didn't happen to them. The only reason for this attitude is cause there was a kid involved. Sure, don't be mad at the kid.......BE MAD AT THE ADULTS INVOLVED.

P.S. if the landowner refuses to give you a sizable refund....then those are "crocodile tears" you are seeing in his eyes.


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## Uzurmnd247 (Jun 1, 2009)

My question is if that boy tells where he killed it , others might take advantage of a nice fellow allowing kids to hunt and over run him with kids wanting to hunt youth day. If you live a good ways away, he might have let other people hunt there. Especially if he knows when you're coming to hunt. There should be some consequenses knowing you were after that peticular buck. He could have told the boy to shoot any buck other than the one you were watching grow to maturity. Don't think for a minute that some hunters are not going to ride the road around there and hope to see a big buck crossing it. Now that they know his genes are there. I understand your situation and feel for you. I know to get a buck like you're talking about would cost alot of money from an outfitter. You would probably have to work your way up to the prime properties of an outfitter as he has loyal clients every year returning. I'm glad it's your decision and not mine! Good luck and keep us posted here on AT.


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## robampton (Nov 24, 2004)

Midwestvest said:


> I don't want to move on, I love the farm and the entire situation. The landowner was distraught when he called, owned up to his mistake, and feels terrible. I am confident that nothing like this has happened before. When I asked him why he allowed it he said "Midwestvest, there was a little 11 year old boy asking to hunt with his dad and in the moment I jsut couldn't turn him down...I don't know what I was thinking."
> 
> But I just don't know how to process this. Should I ask for a discount on next year's lease? How much? He knows what that deer meant to me.
> 
> Also, if that deer had been killed off our property it is fine...but it doesn't matter whether anyone "leases the deer or not." I have the rights to hunt whatever deer are on the property, and no one else does. The deer was killed on the property, end of discussion (harleybuilder).


Man this is a really tough situation for you. I dont know what to tell you. If it was me, I would just move on because it sounds like he does feel he did wrong and I am sure that now that he knows what happened he wont make the same mistake again. I am not saying that is what you should do, its just what I would do because I am not a very confrontational person. Again, I think you would be in your rights to ask for several different things. The only problem with that is if he gets upset and your relationship starts a downward slide that ends up with you having to find another place. Honestly, I think the best thing is to ask him simply if you do or do not have an exclusive agreement moving forward. If the answer is yes, than I would forgive him like a friend and move on. You know, there is always short term and long term considerations. If the is a place you feel comfortable, then I would look long term and continue to build that relationship. Short term, it is sad for you and I know that has to be disappointing.


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## Southern Hunter (Apr 18, 2005)

When you lease property and you have sole rights to it,in writing, he can not break that contract. Even though he is the land owner, he wrote a legal binding document for both parties to adhere to. Lack of judgement no.. he broke your contract. I would ask for my money back and move on and find another spot. Even if you love this spot and value his friendship, move on because you will never get this settled satisfactory in your mind. Money changed hands you bought the rights and he broke that trust or bond. Good for the kid for shooting a big deer.. but you know the land owner knew you had a big buck and probably had a few pictures of it too..he could have let them hunt with the restrictions of don't shoot this deer if you see him.. but he didn't.
it's pretty crappy but I would not feel right hunting there again.. because of trust issues. tough decision... good luck


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## ruffme (Aug 4, 2005)

Well, it sucks but you probably made some wonderful father/son memories.
The more I hear about this stuff the more happy I am I'm not a horn hunter.


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## ohiobooners (Mar 31, 2008)

"Buddy I would love to be able to let you hunt but another fella pays to hunt here and I've given him my word" would have been all the excuse he needed to get out of the guilt put on him from the 11 yr old.


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## G20 (Jan 31, 2008)

If its a world class as you say I'm surprised the pictures haven't gotten around yet.


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## Bob Wallace (Aug 11, 2012)

That surely sucks for you. You could ask for a discount next year and I probably would do that. Since you like huntng it then I'd advise against telling him you want your money back. He may just decide to lease to someone else next year if so. 
The deer is gone. He needs to make it right. No doubt. 
I think I'd look at it as paying it forward. That kid is hooked. On your dime yes however there are worse things in life. 
The only real solution is to buy your own land with the money you spend on the lease.


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## ishootstuff (Apr 2, 2012)

I have to side with ohiobooners here. I'm sure the kid is stoked and that's great. He did nothing wrong and good for him. BUT, you made a business deal and principle is everything. At minimum, you should be compensated for his lack of judgement. I do business with friends a lot and that definitely wouldn't fly with me.


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## ZachMason (Feb 23, 2013)

ohiobooners said:


> Losing a great lessee like yourself might be his. It sounds harsh over a deer, but it's principle. It was an agreement between two men. Agree to keep what you can of the friendship but you will have the sour taste in your mouth for a while. Move on and spend the money you work hard for somewhere it will be treated responsibly


Problem is I don't think the landowner will have a problem finding another good lessee, but I think the OP might have a hard time finding prime hunting land.


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## Foggy Morning (Aug 3, 2012)

I've read all the posts and when you said you didn't want to leave was set on replying that you should stay and gut it out, but upon thinking about it because of the trust issues and sleepless nights that I'd have if leasing from him. I wouldn't want to be paying a man that has let people back there and could possibly have in the past or in the future. This is a complete business transaction like stated before and if he couldn't understand it one time there is a great possibility that it won't be fully understood in the future. I would say get all you can out of it, move on and thank the land owner for what he has provided you even though he has done you wrong. His intentions may not have been bad but it there are other places out there for you to lease. It sounds like the property isn't close to home and every deer season I'd be driven crazy thinking of this happening again. Best of luck to you and congrats to the boy


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## chad8 (Sep 6, 2011)

What would he have done if the kid killed some other deer. Would he have said anything to you at all ?


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## BvrHunter (Apr 8, 2010)

goathollow said:


> Well this is a tough one. On one hand I can see how from a strict contractual sense you may be entitled to some restitution. But before pursuing that I would suggest you ask yourself a simple question that only you can answer. Will you really feel better if he coughs up part of the lease payment? Be honest with yourself, if the answer is no, then I would sit down with the landowner and simply tell him how disappointed you are that he faulted on the lease agreement and ask him to never let it happen again. Easing his pain/guilt may go a long way towards keeping that lease for a long, long time. Instead of killing a world class buck you just might create a world class friend. I'd take the latter over the former any day.


^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^THIS^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Me personally would be upset but would ultimately Forgive and Move On. I have more important things in my life to worry about. Again Thats just me


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## nicko (Feb 17, 2006)

I wonder what the responses would be like here if the OP got on and said he himself violated the terms of the lease by maybe bringing another hunter on the property with him or doing something in direct violation of the lease terms. If he did and got booted, I'm sure most would say he got what he deserved. Not sure why it is different for the landowner and why the OP should turn the other cheek. He paid money and they have a contract. A contract means nothing if it is not observed and not enforced. 

Yeah, it's great the kid got the buck of a lifetime and it's not his fault but he got it at the expense of the OP. The fact the kid got the slammer buck is just salt in the wound but the real issue is the landowner screwed the OP, maybe not intentionally but he did screw him. Granted, there is no guarantee the OP would have ever seen it or shot it. But it kept him energized and sounds like the primary deer he wanted to chase.


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## 12-Ringer (Jan 3, 2008)

Man, I am wondering if half of the "tough-guy" comments are coming form folks who lease ground, or even more have a good relationship with the landowner; it easy to talk a big talk....think about what you wrote in the OP..."great guy", "enjoy the company", "stand-up guy", "mistake", "feels terrible", "lapse in judgment"....your answer is right there...

If you are leasing land that has the potential to produce "world-class buck" AND you have good relationship with the landowner....you would be foolish to attempt any action what-so-ever. Think about this, you reported he feels bad and there is a reason he feels bad, because of the relationship that you have developed with him. There is no need to report how much time, energy, effort,expense, etc...that you've dedicated to that deer, he knows or else he wouldn't have felt that way. Also consider the fact that he could have never told you and you would have been none the wiser....just another one of those giants who mysteriously disappeared.

I would take the exact opposit approach that many are suggesting and the landowner if he could introduce you to the young man who likely complete the hunt of a lifetime. Share with that young man and his father some stories about the bauck, add a few trail cam photos, field videos, and shed antler if you have them for effect. I am not suggesting you forward anything over, but make it clear in a "backdoor" type of way the history that you had with that buck....if the father and young made have any character what-so-ever they too will likley "feel-bad", but you come across as a true ambassador for our sport and really drive home the work it takes to produce deer like that and maybe even drop the idea that hunt was a one-time youth special. I doubt that family. Would ever ask again or the landowner would ever make that mistake again.

Trust me, I feel your pain and am very sorry this happened. I know what I feels like to lease land, manage as best you can, only to loose deer to wandering neighbor, the landowners nephew who showed up when the landowner was in Florida, and the local EMT who landowner let hunt one weekend for helping her husband when he had a heart attack. On each occasion, with the exception of the wandering neigbor, I was as angry as hell especially considering I don't live in an area that will typically produce world class deer, and for a deer to make 140, you'd likely be looking at a 5 year old deer. On each occasion I came out ahead in one way or anthoer.

More and more land is being closed to hunters every year for a wide variety of reasons, even land that was previously leased. I know you mentioned you pay a pretty penny, but I bet he could get more for it if up he wanted too, in today's hunting world there is always another do-it-yourself, self-filming group pooling their resources trying to break into the sponsored network right around the corner...ask yourself...is it worth possibly loosing that spot or fracturing a relationship that most of us are likely jealous of with the landowner.

I hope I gave you something to think about.

Joe 
(Sorry for any misspellings or grammatical errors, my IPad thinks it is smarter that I amukey


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## ohiobooners (Mar 31, 2008)

ZachMason said:


> Problem is I don't think the landowner will have a problem finding another good lessee, but I think the OP might have a hard time finding prime hunting land.


Not gonna argue that BUT there is something to be said for character and honesty. Had the kid not shot THAT deer the lessee would have prob never known. Not the kind of agreement I want my money going to.


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## ohiobooners (Mar 31, 2008)

12-Ringer said:


> Man, I am wondering if half of the "tough-guy" comments are coming form folks who lease ground, or even more have a good relationship with the landowner; it easy to talk a big talk....think about what you wrote in the OP..."great guy", "enjoy the company", "stand-up guy", "mistake", "feels terrible", "lapse in judgment"....your answer is right there...
> 
> If you are leasing land that has the potential to produce "world-class buck" AND you have good relationship with the landowner....you would be foolish to attempt any action what-so-ever. Think about this, you reported he feels bad and there is a reason he feels bad, because of the relationship that you have developed with him. There is no need to report how much time, energy, effort,expense, etc...that you've dedicated to that deer, he knows or else he wouldn't have felt that way. Also consider the fact that he could have never told you and you would have been none the wiser....just another one of those giants who mysteriously disappeared.
> 
> ...


I'm not trying to make tough guy comments at all, honestly. I would just want my lease agreement to be honored, that's all. It was broken big time in this situation.


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## Junglekat (Sep 7, 2006)

He did not ask you if the boy could hunt.Wonder how many people hunt when you are not there.Stand up guy would not have let this happen.It happened before it will happen again.I would be done.But that is me.Definite complete refund.


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## Skeptic (Dec 11, 2005)

The landowner had no legal right to give them permission. He signed that right away to you with the lease agreement. I can't really give you any advice but if it bothers you that much seek out a good attorney. If it really is a world class deer you could be looking at a lot of money in restitution. 

That aside, the landowner is CLEARLY not a trustworthy man. I'd never lease from him again. He got your money and your deer. He's making a fool of you as I see it. 

Had he called you for permission it would be entirely different.


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## WVohioFAN (Jun 5, 2011)

12-Ringer said:


> Man, I am wondering if half of the "tough-guy" comments are coming form folks who lease ground, or even more have a good relationship with the landowner; it easy to talk a big talk....think about what you wrote in the OP..."great guy", "enjoy the company", "stand-up guy", "mistake", "feels terrible", "lapse in judgment"....your answer is right there...
> 
> If you are leasing land that has the potential to produce "world-class buck" AND you have good relationship with the landowner....you would be foolish to attempt any action what-so-ever. Think about this, you reported he feels bad and there is a reason he feels bad, because of the relationship that you have developed with him. There is no need to report how much time, energy, effort,expense, etc...that you've dedicated to that deer, he knows or else he wouldn't have felt that way. Also consider the fact that he could have never told you and you would have been none the wiser....just another one of those giants who mysteriously disappeared.
> 
> ...


They aren't "tough guy" comments, they're "smart business" comments.

The landowner has likely let "friends" hunt there before. Who knows how many other bucks have been secretly taken from the OP's hot spot.
The only reason the OP got a call is because word would have reached him anyway. The "nice guy" landowner figured he'd better make the call and do some damage control. I'm amazed at the # of you who are offering the advice of "let it go". If he lets it go it'll happen over and over. The kid shows up and just happens to luck into the biggest buck on the farm?? Cmon.... 

I'm betting the farmer put his buddy and his kid on this deer. You people are blind.


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## WVohioFAN (Jun 5, 2011)

Skeptic said:


> The landowner had no legal right to give them permission. He signed that right away to you with the lease agreement. I can't really give you any advice but if it bothers you that much seek out a good attorney. If it really is a world class deer you could be looking at a lot of money in restitution.
> 
> That aside, the landowner is CLEARLY not a trustworthy man. I'd never lease from him again. *He got your money and your deer. He's making a fool of you as I see it. *
> 
> Had he called you for permission it would be entirely different.


What do you know. Not everyone here is blind. The OP is getting taken for a ride.


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## Junglekat (Sep 7, 2006)

Why would you want to stay,as far away as you are he will continue to let friends hunt world class deer at your exspense.I would be nice getting a attorney.Stand up guy my *****,just see he if he offers you full refund and hunt for free all year.He is a crook.


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## P&y only (Feb 26, 2009)

So if you had a legal document saying that ONLY you could hunt there...........Does that mean they were trespassing when they killed that deer?????????? Oh Boy!:behindsof


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## Midwestvest (Feb 3, 2012)

Fellas, the landowner is 89 years old. He can barely get out of his house and had no clue where that deer was, only that I had been hunting it. The property is big enough that the deer could have been anywhere, the kid and his dad just lucked out.

I have my reasons to believe that this is an isolated event, and I am there enough that I would know whether I was getting taken for a ride or not. Plus I am friends with the neighbors and they would let me know if something was up. 

All this to say, I still working through this in my head and I am very much enjoying reading each and every take on this. I think there is merit to so many opinions just because of how complicated the situation is.


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## WVohioFAN (Jun 5, 2011)

Midwestvest said:


> Fellas, the landowner is 89 years old. He can barely get out of his house and had no clue where that deer was, only that I had been hunting it. The property is big enough that the deer could have been anywhere, the kid and his dad just lucked out.
> 
> I have my reasons to believe that this is an isolated event, and I am there enough that I would know whether I was getting taken for a ride or not. Plus I am friends with the neighbors and they would let me know if something was up.
> 
> All this to say, I still working through this in my head and I am very much enjoying reading each and every take on this. I think there is merit to so many opinions just because of how complicated the situation is.


You're going to sweep it under the rug. I can tell from the way you're typing. If I ever hit Powerball I'm going to buy a sizable chunk of prime ground in the Midwest and I want YOU to lease from me. 

$ in my pocket and plenty of big bucks for my friends and I......courtesy of your QDM plan.


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## NYSBowman (Aug 21, 2012)

I agree...the OP is going to bend over and take it. I'll bet he asks for no monetary compensation either. JMO


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## Midwestvest (Feb 3, 2012)

WVohioFAN said:


> You're going to sweep it under the rug. I can tell from the way you're typing. If I ever hit Powerball I'm going to buy a sizable chunk of prime ground in the Midwest and I want YOU to lease from me.
> 
> $ in my pocket and plenty of big bucks for my friends and I......courtesy of your QDM plan.


Cool, let me know when that happens. 

In this case, though, the farmer happens to be a sweat-of-the-brow, worked for 70 years farming tens of thousands of hours a year type man who earned everything he has. This doesn't mean I am not going to try to recoup a loss, but it means that not all situations require spur-of-the-moment decisions, even when you suffer from someone else's spur of the moment decision.


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## Buckstar25 (Aug 28, 2007)

Easy to say let it go, easy to say go somewhere else. 

What I find interesting is that in the modern era of "hunting" that this "situation" is even brought up. I understand totally your predicament, I am just glad it isn't me ( if that makes you feel any better). Leasing gets a bad rap from a lot of guys, for selfish reasons, greed plays a part in it, all of the stuff that is hard to believe comes into play in the hunting community. 

I don't think there is a right or wrong post in this thread, just a bunch of people situationally speaking. Sure there is the black an white aspect, but it's both sides. I didn't see any "tough guy" posts, just posts from the other side of the fence. What I do agree with is the fact that (and we are all taking your word on this) you say this guy is everything most men consider admirable. If you truly believe it's just a lapse in judgement then it's just that (that's the black and white). If you feel there is more to it then you have to do what you feel is right. When you bring money into any situation there is usually the potential for a bad outcome, sad to say but it's the truth, I choose tradition and heritage over money. Good luck in your decision it isn't an easy one. Keep us posted on what happens.


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## cds913 (Aug 27, 2012)

P&y only said:


> Since you apparently did nothing wrong I would reverse the situation and explain how you feel and ask the landowner what HE is going to do to rectify the situation..



^ this.

Owning up to a mistake doesn't make it right. I guess what I did would depend on what he did next.


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## ssrhythm (Jul 11, 2007)

The dood thought it would be great to let a kid hunt there not ever thinking he'd kill a monster you'd been hunting. He made a mistake and owned up to it and apologized. I'd chalk this one up to "good for the kid" and just make sure that the landowner will never do that again. I bet he offers to lower the lease price for you, but if not, what are you going to do? A good lease is not something that is easy to come by, and unless you are willing to pack up and get another piece of ground, I'd just discuss it with him and not strain the relationship.


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## bsites9 (Mar 22, 2008)

If you want to continue to hunt there (which you do), then I'd be the bigger man and NOT ask for money back. Because eventhough you're close to the landowner, he may very well decide he wants to lease it to someone else next year instead of giving you money.

And I'd definitely not call and congratulate the young hunter. Him and his dad probably showed up there for a reason...they probably knew that deer was there.


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## saskguy (Aug 25, 2007)

If he's 89 I'm betting he is not trying to screw you. At the very least I'd be asking for my cash though. He should understand business and investments and you didn't get what you paid for. At the very least you deserve your money.
You'd want it back from a contractor or a mechanic or whatever if you paid for something that didn't happen. No difference at all.


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## Liv4Rut (Mar 24, 2006)

Heck at 89 years old I just hope I could remember I even had the farm leased out. I couldn't get upset with an 89 year old I dont think. He manned up to it, just have him will the farm to you. Problem solved.


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## Maxemus (May 20, 2013)

As a landowner that leases land in the Midwest I take my responsibility to my tenants very seriously. I was even told by the lessee that I could hunt the place whenever I wanted to but truth be told I haven't. As someone that can relate to both sides of the argument I can tell you that ignoring this as an isolated issue is the worse thing you can do. Every thing you do and say will impact what happens in the future. If you really do pay handsomely for your lease then you represent a significant amount Of money to the landowner and he would want to continue this relationship moving forward. If this is the case then you have a valid argument to getting a free year next year. I you do not press the issue he will do this again at some point. That I can guarantee. I negotiate for a living so believe me when I tell you staying quiet and not asking for concessions will work against you. Good luck


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## onebigdude (Dec 13, 2012)

Sounds like you have been spending ample amounts of time and money "raising" this buck. Paying year after year for sole rights to the land, passing on the deer multiple times to wait for it to mature to the world class animal you describe, tending the land, and doing your research only to have someone else take the animal, I would be furious. Sure it's just a deer, but it also sounds like there is some serious history with the animal. Great for the kid, very foolish for the landowner. Like others have said, what are the chances he lets people hunt when he knows you're not there and the only reason you found out us because the kid just so happened to take your target buck? I think it's more than reasonable to ask for a full refund on this years lease. You paid for sole rights and didn't get that. You got it MUCH worse. If he's a quality guy, get a refund for this year. Then next year be very clear about the meaning of sole rights. You will never get the money back you invested in the property to raise the deer, but getting your money back for this years lease is the least he could do.


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## Junglekat (Sep 7, 2006)

Would you mind if me and my 8 year old daughter hunt on your lease.It would be great if I could get her a world class deer before age 10.By the way I'am a stand up god fearing man,husband,father johnny apple red tax payer.


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## Onza (Jul 17, 2005)

There has been some sound advice given here. My 2 cents....

I would not ask for a refund for this year, but a discount for the next based upon his breech of contract if you do decide to continue the lease. Have you confirmed this is "the buck!", what is the other potential on the property, are there other bucks on the property that will fill your needs.

Another concern I have is the landowners age. He may not have many more years left, and if his family is to get the property, you may either lose the lease at the time of his death or have put yourself in the position to continue the lease through the new owners as an established customer. You may also have a toe in the door on purchasing the property outright. 

It all comes down to seeing pics of the buck taken and then having a serious discussion with the landowner, but I wouldn't go up there with your mind made up already.


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## chaded (Jan 15, 2011)

Liv4Rut said:


> Heck at 89 years old I just hope I could remember I even had the farm leased out. I couldn't get upset with an 89 year old I dont think. He manned up to it, just have him will the farm to you. Problem solved.


I actually think your on to something here...


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## ohiobooners (Mar 31, 2008)

Maxemus said:


> As a landowner that leases land in the Midwest I take my responsibility to my tenants very seriously. I was even told by the lessee that I could hunt the place whenever I wanted to but truth be told I haven't. As someone that can relate to both sides of the argument I can tell you that ignoring this as an isolated issue is the worse thing you can do. Every thing you do and say will impact what happens in the future. If you really do pay handsomely for your lease then you represent a significant amount Of money to the landowner and he would want to continue this relationship moving forward. If this is the case then you have a valid argument to getting a free year next year. I you do not press the issue he will do this again at some point. That I can guarantee. I negotiate for a living so believe me when I tell you staying quiet and not asking for concessions will work against you. Good luck


Yup


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## tschammel (Oct 28, 2009)

I would say let it go. My reason is that my grandfather sounds a lot like this man. He was very kind, same age and would have called you like this old gentleman did. My grandfather just passed away this last Saturday, breaking many hearts. This old man doesn't have many years left and this mistake is probably going to eat at him until he does die. One thing that can make this worse is that if you go to him and act upset enough to ask for a refund. You have a point he broke the agreement, but only because he couldn't break that 11 year old boys heart. I would let him know that this can't happen again but you forgive him, and reiterate that you do forgive him. I wouldn't be able to sit in my tree on that guys land, knowing that he leased it to me, made a mistake and now your hunting it for free? But thats me and everyone is different. If we all owed restitution for the mistakes we made, we all would be broke.


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## chaded (Jan 15, 2011)

There are enough guys on this thread that say let it go. I wonder if maybe they would all go in together and pay part or all of the OP's lease. Think about it, they don't care, the old guy gets off the hook, OP gets part or all of his money and gets to keep his spot, and the kid has a world class deer. Win?


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## nicko (Feb 17, 2006)

So the landowner has the wherewithal to lease his property for a good amount of money to the OP for hunting but he shouldn't be held to the terms of the lease contract because he is an older gentleman?


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## mathews_rage (Oct 10, 2010)

Im having a gut feeling that the landowner just made a really bad mistake. He probably just thought well this kid probably couldn't kill "your" buck and that it wouldn't hurt letting him hunt deer, because its just deer. 

Well this incident is just eating this guy up, because deer are no longer just deer. They now help feed his family from your pocket. He will now have a new appreciation for you and this may lead to things better than expected for you. You may be able to lock in at a lower price for more than 3-5 years.


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## bjmostel (Jun 12, 2010)

I'd just suck it up and forgive the man. Very few people have conscience to even come clean with the truth. If the land is that good then he probably wouldn't have any issue finding new leasers if he doesn't like your refund idea.


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## LXhuntinPA (Jan 22, 2006)

So he only felt bad after the big buck was killed? I'd take a grand off the price for next year and let him know if it happens again your done.


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## NYSBowman (Aug 21, 2012)

Once word gets out about the giant buck....good luck keeping trespassers off your lease, not to mention anyone else that the old man allows to "quietly" hunt there.

I would hope that the OP has some arrangement where he can continue to lease the property(assuming he still wants to) after the old man's death.

At this point, it sounds like the OP has a lot of time/money/effort invested in the place. For his troubles, his target buck has been killed....and hes probably created a great lease that someone else will end up benefitting from in the future.

It's hard enough to keep trespassers/poachers off property when you live close by.......I would imagine that it's near impossible to do when you don't live in the area. Can't imagine an 89yr old man patrols the property much...if at all.

FWIW: if the old man "came clean" before the buck was shot....that would be one thing. The fact that he did so afterward....tells me that he had an "Oh, crap!" moment when he realized that the big buck news would get around.


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## posco (Feb 27, 2007)

Nothing is going to bring back that world class deer but you do have genetics working for you. I'd convey my strong displeasure/disappointment in as kind a way possible seeing that you have developed both a business and a personal relationship with the guy and suggest a substantial reduction in price when you renew the lease.


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## NYSBowman (Aug 21, 2012)

posco said:


> Nothing is going to bring back that world class deer but you do have genetics working for you. I'd convey my strong displeasure/disappointment in as kind a way possible seeing that you have developed both a business and a personal relationship with the guy and suggest a substantial reduction in price when you renew the lease.


Smart thing to do...is to ask for the refund NOW.....while the old man is feeling guilty. Next year, the old guy could be dead.....or have been offered a LOT more money for the lease now that a giant has been shot there.


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## Skeptic (Dec 11, 2005)

I don't know how expensive your lease is, but say its 10 grand, and that was the primary deer you were after, full reimbursement of at least this years lease, if not a couple would seem appropriate to me. Don't let the guys age fool ya. Just because he's old doesn't make him a good guy, and clearly breaking the contract makes him a dishonorable guy. Lack in judgement my arse!


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## kingfishn1 (Sep 24, 2012)

Until you meet with gentleman face to face, hold off making ANY decisions. He may very well offer you some sort of deal that makes you and him very happy, not just now but for along time. Once you see him and discuss, I am sure you will feel much better about what happened. 

Without pictures, it never happened. Also, if you decide not to continue lease, let ME (and only Me) know. :angel:


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## 12-Ringer (Jan 3, 2008)

I bet that father and his kid are waiting in line to lease that land, just be careful. Like I said earlier the best situation possible is find a way to let the father and his son know that you know they violated the lease, perhaps taking advantage of the landowners kindness. There are several tactful ways this can be done while maintaining what sounds like a sound relationship with not only the landowner, but his neighbors as well. At 89 you have to wonder how many years you have left, once the land changes hands (if it isn't developed) it might be advantageous to have the endorsement of the old-man passed along to the next landowner.

One thing I know for sure is that when folks lease their land the last thing most want is drama....grant-it the landowner created the opportunity for drama to creep in, only you have the choice whether or not that happens. 

Have you been there to speak with him for any reason since hearing the news? I believe you and believe he feels as though he made a mistake, but perhaps he was taken advantage of?? He might suprise you and offer a refund or discount and you won't have to ask for anything....

Like I said orginally, I hope things work out...

Joe


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## Timmy Big Time (Aug 8, 2010)

He knows he is wrong let him know next year is free or it a breech of contract


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## posco (Feb 27, 2007)

NYSBowman said:


> Smart thing to do...is to ask for the refund NOW.


My thinking is maybe the guy doesn't have a lot of money to begin with and it would be easier to knock some coin off next year than to try to dig up the loot now. Tough situation for sure.


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## NYSBowman (Aug 21, 2012)

If this ever went to court for breach of contract....I'm curious as to whether the "value" of the deer killed would/could factor into what monetary damages were awarded.

I'm guessing that the answer is NO, but it would be very interesting to know if anything more than the actual amount paid for the lease.....could be awarded.


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## tackscall (Jul 26, 2004)

nicko said:


> I think the only way to handle this now is to give the landowner's contact info to Jackie Bushman and Buckmasters.


Dude that's capital punishment!


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## sawtoothscream (Apr 19, 2008)

If it was me I would no doubt ask for some type of refund, you payed good money and spent even more to get to that property and im sure you probably did all sorts of things to make it good deer land. So you spend all that cash, are nice to the owner and have a agreement and he just says screw it, hunt the land some guy has full hunting rights to and pays a ton of money for, for free. I wouldn't be mad at the kid at all, good for him, not his fault the land owner took a dump on your contract. Have a face to face with him and see what he wants to do, tell him what you would like and find some type of agreement that would make you feel less screwed. If you continue to hunt there draw up a new contract saying if anyone else hunts there you get a full refund and throw a few trail cams in places you think people would pass through to get to the good spots. That way if he screws you again (doubt this is a one time deal) you have proof. Sucky deal all around but why would you pay for sole right of the land when you are not getting it? Hell maybe you should just ask him if you can just hunt there for free like the others do.

I fully understand that you have to respect a land owner that allows you to hunt his land, I dont own or lease any land so if the owners doesnt want me hunting certain days fine, lets a few buddies hunt, no problem at all. But when thousands of dollars where put down it changes all that.


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## Tugman (Jun 22, 2013)

That is a tough break. I'm as easy going as anyone you will ever meet, but I also work very hard for my money and I do my utmost to live up to my end of things. It sounds like you have a good relationship with the landowner. If it were me, when I next met with him, I would give HIM the opportunity to suggest a way to make this right. If, after a reasonable period of time he did not, then I would suggest that we need to come to an agreement on redress. As the saying goes, it's not personal, it's business. I would be professional and calm, but firm. When something fair is *agreed* upon , I would get it in writing... *NOW*.


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## goathollow (Jun 18, 2008)

89 years old!! Does he live alone by chance? A lonely old man not wanting to say no to a guy and his son. Is that so hard to fathom? Is it so hard to fathom that at 89 yrs old he simply never thought to tell them to not shoot the big buck and now feels foolish for making such a mistake that's hurt some he too considers a friend? For a man his age Id bet next months pay check it's not about a contract it's about honoring his word to his friend.
OP: based on the tenor of your posts I think you already know the right thing to do.


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## Edtred (Jul 24, 2013)

Think of it as free range. Deer could have wandered anywhere. But I agree, refund.


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## ohiobooners (Mar 31, 2008)

So you pay big money for the lease and sole hunting rights and the kid gets to hunt for free and kills a huge buck. Regardless of age, he voided your contract.


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## Midwestvest (Feb 3, 2012)

goathollow said:


> 89 years old!! Does he live alone by chance? A lonely old man not wanting to say no to a guy and his son. Is that so hard to fathom? Is it so hard to fathom that at 89 yrs old he simply never thought to tell them to not shoot the big buck and now feels foolish for making such a mistake that's hurt some he too considers a friend? For a man his age Id bet next months pay check it's not about a contract it's about honoring his word to his friend.
> OP: based on the tenor of your posts I think you already know the right thing to do.


His wife still lives with him. I have a feeling that he is thinking at this point about how he might make this right. He knows how upset I am.


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## Midwestvest (Feb 3, 2012)

Edtred said:


> Think of it as free range. Deer could have wandered anywhere. But I agree, refund.


Its free range deer, not free range hunters!


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## Midwestvest (Feb 3, 2012)

ohiobooners said:


> So you pay big money for the lease and sole hunting rights and the kid gets to hunt for free and kills a huge buck. Regardless of age, he voided your contract.


Yep, thats it. And its not just that, but the fact that I spend even more money planting foodplots, managing herd, etc. It sucks.


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## nathanrogers (Dec 5, 2010)

Situation - sucks.
Legally - he is at fault and you are entitled to a refund or damages
Morally - you'd have never known unless he told you
My opinion - you have leverage and the upper hand 

I would explain to him that it took a good 2-3 years to get that deer to that caliber and that you want to know if he will work out a 2-3 year lease at a better price. Gives you extra funds for time spent, and food plots. 
Bright side? I'm sure he spread his genes the last couple years.


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## WhiteTailFevah (Nov 6, 2011)

Can we see some pictures of this buck already! I wanna see!!


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## WildmanWilson (Jul 30, 2009)

He should return a years lease fees. He broke it and he knew he was wrong. Its not like he fell in a hole. Thats an accident. What he did was on purpose and he broke the contract. I wouldn't hold anything personal against him but he owes you. Thats why you paid the money. His mistake, he should pay.


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## weekender7 (Nov 1, 2011)

I still want to see the picture of the deer............


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## Baldona523 (Feb 12, 2010)

I would be irate and probably looking for another lease. I would ask for a FULL refund of this year for the price of the lease, as you said you have spent other money there. Then I would take my time figuring out what the best thing to do for you is. If this was a booner or even worse 200'' it further complicates it. Booners are not on every corner no matter where you are, and sometimes a great property is worth putting up with BS to hunt. 

As many have said, he told you because the MONSTER was shot. He probably would of never said anything if it was a smaller buck so that begs the question, what ELSE is going on there that is not supposed to?

A lease is a fun contract for you, but it is PURELY business for the landowner. If it was any other business transaction, how would you feel if they gave their product to a competitor? 

Think of this like rent to a landlord. If you are a great tenant that pays on time, is a good person, treats the property well, etc. then that is worth quite a bit. There are plenty of guys that lease property and treat it poorly and don't pay on time. I don't think i'd ruin a friendship over it, but the landowner screwed up BIG TIME. You could easily sue him for the money you have spent in gas, plots, etc. I would be no means do that, but I am just saying legally dumber things have been done and won. Many guys would.

Don't give me the bull about an 11 year old kid, this wasn't a fishing pond catching blue gills out back. Farmers know good and well the money and effort that is involved in big time deer hunting. I'm all for kids, but again it was a business contract for him no different that if the Co-Op were to charge him $5000 more 1 year for seed just because they needed it for an 11 year old boys farm.


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## jdk81 (Nov 20, 2012)

Any pics of this deer?


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## NCAVI8TOR (Oct 5, 2003)

Full refund for this year, PERIOD! Kid should have been allowed to kill a doe only, with your permission of course. I would not be so understanding and nice about it. You were screwed over! I don't believe the landowner made a mistake. It was pretty black and white in the lease, right? 

NC


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## bigracklover (Feb 1, 2008)

Dang, that is an unfortunate turn of events. I would be very upset and expect some form of reimbursement.


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## outdoorsman3 (Nov 15, 2010)

in for pictures... but I also have a statement..

not sure if this is a "legal action" of land ownership/leasing (of course this only applies if you want to stay there) what if you said, I want a legal document of 10 (maybe more?) years saying even if this land was to go to his son, or his wife, or whoever in his family.. that you will still have the chance to lease it? not sure if that is an actual thing though.

I personally would stay, you said this ground has produced you good deer every year... you are doing better than 80% of hunters still. it sucks you cant get a "world class deer" (whatever that is) but I am sure the land could produce another one since this deers seed has spread around the area


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## RxBowhunter (Feb 16, 2005)

You got shafted by a temporary lack of judgement by an old man. It appears he is very upset about it, as are you. 
You have three years invested in this place. What's that worth to you? Getting your money back and finding a new lease isn't easy not to mention the time spent learning the property, managing the herd and planting food plots. 
Personally I would be ticked but I'd give the landowner the opportunity to make it right with you. 
The property grew a world class deer for a reason so it's likely, in time, it will again. Switching to a new lease means you'll be starting all over again with a lot of unknowns. 
I would stay friendly and personable with him but be firm about what an exclusive lease means and get it in writing.


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## Baldona523 (Feb 12, 2010)

Screw the old man stuff, if anything that means he should of known better. Furthermore, being old the chances that he can make it up to you in the future are slim. I'd demand your money back this year asap. The idea of signing a better long term contract to make amends, is not a bad idea.

As others have said, the chances the father and son did not know about the nice buck are slim. The chances that the nice buck was the first deer and the first buck to walk out are very slim and improbable. 

Again, a good lease is not cheap. If this was a purely business deal, and you paid a guy $5000+ for a product and then he turns around and gives it (for free) to someone else then what would you do?


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## turdypointbuck (Dec 17, 2010)

Id be done at that property. A cheating wife might be really sorry as well,would it matter to me? Nope...a persons word is important,the people that are running this country in the ground are a prime example of what happens when its broken.


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## onebigdude (Dec 13, 2012)

A lease is a lease. If the contract was broken and there is no recourse, what was the point of the contract? I can't believe so many people are saying to just let it go! Doesn't matter if he is 100 years old. You paid good money to be the ONLY person with access. I wouldn't expect my landlord to allow some people to stay at my apartment, just because I was on vacation. I signed a contract and pay good money to be the only one who lives there.


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## razortec 0001 (Aug 15, 2004)

How big is this buck do you estimate?


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## LXhuntinPA (Jan 22, 2006)

The guy probably ended up telling you because if this deer is as big as you say it will be all over the place and everyone will find out where it was from. Probably told you because he would have been caught eventually and he knew that.


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## rhodes31072 (Sep 20, 2011)

You and the landowner might get along great, but if you go in like some suggest and DEMAND things, you won't get along well anymore. I know you have a lease and it definitely sucks that he broke it, but you can be off this property for good at his whim. I bet he knows a father and son who would be happy to make up his loss!

Now, if he's as stand up a fella as you think he is, he will make this as right as he can with you. If he's not, you at least know that for future reference. 

I don't lease out any of my land, so my opinion doesn't count for much, but as a landowner, nothing rubs you the wrong way more than someone telling you what you better do for them as they stand on your land.


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## madarchery (May 28, 2003)

I laugh at the macho guys and there lease $ refunds. The OP stated he likes it there and wants to stay there, if the OP and landowner are friends just talk it out, obviously the LO feels crappy. 

To demand any money back may also find yourself loosing the lease. Thats the sucky part of leasing, just like any rental you pay for nothing in the end.


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## Baldona523 (Feb 12, 2010)

rhodes31072 said:


> You and the landowner might get along great, but if you go in like some suggest and DEMAND things, you won't get along well anymore. I know you have a lease and it definitely sucks that he broke it, but you can be off this property for good at his whim. I bet he knows a father and son who would be happy to make up his loss!
> 
> Now, if he's as stand up a fella as you think he is, he will make this as right as he can with you. If he's not, you at least know that for future reference.
> 
> I don't lease out any of my land, so my opinion doesn't count for much, but as a landowner, nothing rubs you the wrong way more than someone telling you what you better do for them as they stand on your land.


You are thinking of this incorrectly. A lease for hunting is just like a lease to live in a house. As said, if you lease a house and go on vacation would someone else be allowed to stay there? NO! 

If someone leases your property you can't kick them off for no reason just like a house. 

It is not like he leased the property for $100, and the father and son would of leased the property themselves if they had the money to do so. This sounds like a good property and the lease is a pretty penny. To get a good long term lessee is not as easy as others have said, especially if you are an old guy.


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## kycamtrakker (Nov 26, 2007)

in for pics and outcome.....


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## WVohioFAN (Jun 5, 2011)

madarchery said:


> I laugh at the macho guys and there lease $ refunds. The OP stated he likes it there and wants to stay there, if the OP and landowner are friends just talk it out, obviously the LO feels crappy.
> 
> To demand any money back may also find yourself loosing the lease. Thats the sucky part of leasing, just like any rental you pay for nothing in the end.


And we laugh at your doormat mentality.


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## turkeyhunter60 (Apr 19, 2010)

Subscribed....


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## itsslow98 (Aug 3, 2010)

Midwestvest said:


> Fellas, the landowner is 89 years old. He can barely get out of his house and had no clue where that deer was, only that I had been hunting it. The property is big enough that the deer could have been anywhere, the kid and his dad just lucked out.
> 
> I have my reasons to believe that this is an isolated event, and I am there enough that I would know whether I was getting taken for a ride or not. Plus I am friends with the neighbors and they would let me know if something was up.
> 
> All this to say, I still working through this in my head and I am very much enjoying reading each and every take on this. I think there is merit to so many opinions just because of how complicated the situation is.


You already know what your gonna do which is nothing....so why even start the thread and waste everyones time?


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## DeanH (Feb 2, 2013)

my take on this. 

you want to stay there.

you want/need some sort of compensation. 

the owner is really sorry about this.

imo, talk to the owner, ask him what he feels would set things right between you. 

See if that agrees with your feelings on this and if it will help keeping things as they are. 

If not, then as much as you dont want to, consider getting a refund, the guy is 89, he might not be alive next year. and then your out of land too..


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## EROS (Feb 15, 2004)

NYSBowman said:


> I agree. Nobody makes a mistake....and ACCIDENTALLY gives permission for someone to hunt. Especially on land that is leased to someone else.
> 
> My guess? They figured they'd let the kid hunt there(and kill a deer)....thinking that you'd be none the wiser. And since the buck was huge(and known).....he called you with the sob story.
> 
> ...


You know kinda hard to argue this point. 

My thing be why didn't the land owner say yea you can hunt but don't shoot this deer. 
If you where friends I have to come to the conclusion he knew you where after this deer. 
A friend or a land owner who leases should have never let this happen.
Which brings me to the conclusion they all knew what they were doing.


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## nicko (Feb 17, 2006)

madarchery said:


> I laugh at the macho guys and there lease $ refunds. The OP stated he likes it there and wants to stay there, if the OP and landowner are friends just talk it out, obviously the LO feels crappy.
> 
> To demand any money back may also find yourself loosing the lease. Thats the sucky part of leasing, just like any rental you pay for nothing in the end.


Then the lease contract means nothing and the OP is being cheated by the landowner. He is probably paying thou$and$ for the lease while the dad and kid got to come hunt for free and drop the biggest buck there. 

I'm amazed how many here say you should just suck it up. If you really want to break it down to this, the landowner is stealing the OPs money. I'd like to hunt great land and big bucks as much as anybody but if you steal from me or screw me when we have a deal in writing that I'm paying a lot of money for, I don't care how sorry you are, how torn up you are, how devastated you are. You owe me something.


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## buckchaser86 (Jun 10, 2009)

If you still want to hunt there I would for sure at least be getting this year or the next free as the lease contract was broken. Whats the point of filling out lease paperwork if its not followed. I am sure there are some guidelines the hunter is expected to follow. And I am sure the landowner wouldn't be happy if those were broken. If it was a handshake and a few hundred dollars I would understand. But this is probably big money, thorough contract, and signatures on the page agreeing from both parties.


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## pinwheeled (Apr 27, 2008)

Fulldraw1972 said:


> Like said above, depends if you want to continue to hunt there.
> If you do want to continue hunting there. Me personally I wouldn't ask for money back. I would express your concerns and ask that it don't happen again. If you want to move on then I would ask for your money back.


It would be no problem for the farmer to lease his land He probably has more then one person waiting for you to get out of the lease so they can. Your in a no win position you lost your buck that you were after and you if you raise to big of stink your out.


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## Nock On 4 Life (Jun 17, 2013)

jennz1999 said:


> I would probably have a talk with the landowner about the amount of money that you pay to hunt there and how much time and money you have invested into managing the deer and make sure he is aware that it's not right that you pay for exclusive hunting rights when he did something like this. You ask what to do and what is there to do... You could do many things... The thing is what do YOU want to come of it? Think about that and then let the landowner know what you think is fair.


^^This


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## Southern Hunter (Apr 18, 2005)

I find it humorous that some people say "oh forget it since you want to keep the lease" I hunted for years on a few leases because I wanted to have a say in how the herd was managed on that property. I spent money to lease, place stands, feed, build mineral sites and try (mind you ) to keep the poaches and thefts down. So in other words it took more than just money to develop a hunting property. It took time and money does transfer from the time spent. If you put a cost on man hours it would blow someones mind the dollar amount spent, not to mention the other cost of materials that are unseen now because they were planted and eaten by the herd.
Most guy's who have only the opportunity to hunt public land do not see these higher cost, just because you lease the property you must develop the area to hold deer and draw deer to your area. Time and money... so to have a agreement or contract for the sole rights to hunt after you have developed this area, then have someone just break it because the look in a 11 year old's eyes doesn't hold sand. I would let the next person in line have this property and move on as I have stated before, its a trust issue now since a legal document didn't keep the owner from just saying no. 
I also stated that (in my last post) he could have told these people not to shoot this deer.. but that is not really the point.. they had really no business being on a legally leased property. This misfortune should open the eyes of a lot of people who lease property and those who wish to lease. Prime property goes for prime dollars and you should expect the land owner to give you the value you have paid for, nothing more and nothing less.


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## Baldona523 (Feb 12, 2010)

One other point to note, how much luck will the landowner have getting another lessee for HIGH dollar when he just broke the last lease? Would you pay a boat load of money to lease land that the landowner let a kid on to shoot the monster buck off of the year before? I know I wouldn't. Just saying the OP has more cards in his hands than most think.

I don't think the landowner is really sorry about letting the boy hunt, he is sorry because the little boy got lucky and shot the monster and cost him a bunch of money. The landowner called to get some sympathy so the OP doesn't take his $1000s back from the breach of contract.


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## Bucks (Jul 27, 2005)

great long term hunting property with a conscientious land owner is very hard to find at any cost. if you want to stay there and not have to search for another, let it go. if you want to risk the land, then take a stand. the most I would do is just remind him that this situation is exactly why you need and are willing to pay big bucks for "exclusive." it sounds like he "gets" it now anyway. that father/son will be back again next year asking for permission, as will others.

if it were me, I would ask for a pic of the kid and the deer. a wildly ecstatic 11 year old is worth quite a bit in my book, even if it was your sacrifice.

I look at the motivation, and he had none except a kid standing there looking for a place to hunt, and a dad who wants to get him involved. at his age, the guy probably doesn't care as much about the money as he does about doing the right thing.


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## shaunmeli (Oct 29, 2012)

If you don't want to hunt there anymore, tell the guy you want your money back.

If you want to hunt, word it like this:
"Hello (farmer). That buck kept me up at night a lot when I knew he was alive. After we spoke, I have lost even more sleep. I have a bunch of buddies telling me to find another lease. I told them you are a stand up guy because you did call and fess up. You didn't have to do that and I appreciate the honesty, but I am still disappointed to say the least. I really don't want to find another lease. Would you agree to a 50% discount for next season."

If he says no, tell him that when you pay that kind of cash you want the lease agreement to be followed. Don't be a jerk if you still want to hunt.


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## BowTechForever (Jun 12, 2012)

Go beat up the kid and take the bucks rack. Tell him if he hunts your lease again you'll hang him from your tree stand platform.....by his neck. Then kick the crap out if the landowner and throw him out of his house and tell him your taking his land and house. Beat him again if he doesn't comply. Your next move ought to be to put up a twelve foot, electrified, razor wire topped fence around the entire property. Now you can have your own hunting compound.


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## Junglekat (Sep 7, 2006)

It sounds like your paying 10,000.00 to 20,000.00 or more counting everything.These people say suck it up.Your sole right to a monster.All parties on the other side knew what they were doing.Come on people try saving that much money every year.You got screwd over.You can find a lease when you are talking that kind of money.It was not the first time it happened.Alot of you long time lease people better open your eyes.I have had land owners that lease property to people that are long distance traveling to get there.They tell me come on hunt,I know when they are coming in town.They always call telling me when.They told me about the mineral sites,trail cams tree stands where they are at.Come on hunt they won't know.There even getting pics of monsters.I swear this has been offered to me twice jn my hunting career.I know there is other people who have been offered the same thing.Some of you other guys chime in with stuff similar to this.Lets open there eyes.You thought you were the only one right.He is a old man forget about it yeah right.Old men go to prison child molesting,stealing.I do not buy into the old man deal.People will kill you foor far less than 10,000.00 to 20,000.00 or more.If he does not know any better.Time to educate the old man before he kicks the bucket.


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## air leak (Nov 15, 2010)

Why would anyone spend many thousands of dollars, plus time and effort, on someone else's property? Exclusive lease or not, it's still someone else's land. This is the chance that you take. There isn't any guarantee that the land will be leased again, when the contract is expired.

The best thing to do is save and buy your own land.


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## Fullstrutter (Jul 8, 2008)

Absolutely heart wrenching


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## Treehugger98 (Nov 9, 2012)

That deer was seen and knew about, no mistake ! Pay to play, he pudged so he needs to pay you back your money and drop the lease cost following year. Happy for the kid, but something sounds fishy


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## madarchery (May 28, 2003)

I understand a lease agreement guys, but the OP wants to stay there. Unless the lease agreement has a first refusal clause the OP can find himself out the door if he pushes to hard. Thats the power of being an OWNER. Yes there was a breach of contract, and yes the OP has the RIGHT to compensation. BUT there will be a cost, and this is where the OP must make a decision of what that deer and the breech was worth.

Doormat mentality? Well if you don't own then yes people can walk on ya.


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## rmayflyfish (Jan 11, 2009)

I would demand a refund. Simple as that. You are paying for something now that is not exclusively yours anymore. The parties at fault should understand that and warrant that.


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## rutmaster (Dec 12, 2007)

bad thing for you is now the landowner has some connection to hunting, his land, trophy deer, and a young happy hunter, and the only way he will remember you in this is your reaction! be careful because if you approach this to angrily the kid might end up with more than your deer! i would let him know in a non threatening way that it wasn't cool and that you invested time and money after that deer, accept his apology and move on, tell him you understand the circumstances and for brownie points, at least act very happy for the kid. the last thing you want is for jr to take your lease next year!


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## Squirrel (Aug 6, 2008)

It sounds like you like this guy and this property. My concern would be, has he let people hunt on it in the past? And did he only tell you because it was your target buck or would he have told you if it was a scrub buck or doe? I would hunt it this year but I would make it 100% known that if he ever does it again you expect a full a refund and it is breaking your exclusive rights lease contract.


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## HuntinFreak (Jan 26, 2005)

The land owner was definitely pulling a fast one. No way did he just have a lapse. Question is, what to do about it.


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## robampton (Nov 24, 2004)

BowTechForever said:


> Go beat up the kid and take the bucks rack. Tell him if he hunts your lease again you'll hang him from your tree stand platform.....by his neck. Then kick the crap out if the landowner and throw him out of his house and tell him your taking his land and house. Beat him again if he doesn't comply. Your next move ought to be to put up a twelve foot, electrified, razor wire topped fence around the entire property. Now you can have your own hunting compound.


You high fence hunters drive me crazy.


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## bigbucks170 (Feb 2, 2006)

Midwestvest said:


> Hey folks, got an unfortunate situation on my hands.
> 
> I lease a good chunk of land in the midwest and pay a premium price for it. I have a great relationship with the landowner, we really enjoy each others' company, it is mutually beneficial, etc. The lease is exclusive...and in writing: meaning I have paid and signed for the sole rights to deer hunt.
> 
> ...


you say you got tons of pics velvet footage? lets see some of those pics please...


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## rutmaster (Dec 12, 2007)

i see everyones point of dont take any crap, i do agree there too! its a tough situation and only you know the landowner! i kinda look at life like a chess game, calculating every move and anticipating the response, then addressing each situation differently and accordingly, ive had to eat crow at times only to come out smelling like a rose and other times take a more direct approach. just look at what you want in the future and judge your move, sounds like the balls in your court!


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## Trykon Mike (Aug 25, 2007)

I would get with the landowner and tell him the only way to make this right is to have him put you in his will as landowner trustee:wink:


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## ohiobooners (Mar 31, 2008)

Tonight I think I will take my lady to buy a new car. I'll pick her out the nicest one I can. I want to get her the biggest one on the lot. I'll pay a lot of my hard earned money for it. After we buy it the dealership is going to give the next guy that comes along a key to my car as well. No he doesnt have to buy one, he can just use the one I paid for. Am I going to get upset with the dealership? Naw, the guy with a key to my new car has an 11 yr old he'll be driving around. I will probably want to buy another car someday so I wont give the dealership a bad time....I'll just sit here and take it.


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## robampton (Nov 24, 2004)

Junglekat said:


> It sounds like your paying 10,000.00 to 20,000.00 or more counting everything.These people say suck it up.Your sole right to a monster.All parties on the other side knew what they were doing.Come on people try saving that much money every year.You got screwd over.You can find a lease when you are talking that kind of money.It was not the first time it happened.Alot of you long time lease people better open your eyes.I have had land owners that lease property to people that are long distance traveling to get there.They tell me come on hunt,I know when they are coming in town.They always call telling me when.They told me about the mineral sites,trail cams tree stands where they are at.Come on hunt they won't know.There even getting pics of monsters.I swear this has been offered to me twice jn my hunting career.I know there is other people who have been offered the same thing.Some of you other guys chime in with stuff similar to this.Lets open there eyes.You thought you were the only one right.He is a old man forget about it yeah right.Old men go to prison child molesting,stealing.I do not buy into the old man deal.People will kill you foor far less than 10,000.00 to 20,000.00 or more.If he does not know any better.Time to educate the old man before he kicks the bucket.


The thing is, you may be right, no doubt about it. However, many people are answering the question under the assumption that what the OP tells us about the landowner is true. Many are assuming the intentions of the landowner are not what the OP says. You may be 100 percent right, but I dont know the man or his motivations so I am going by what the OP says they are.


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## nicko (Feb 17, 2006)

I'd love to see the OP post up a dollar amount figure as to how much he paid for the lease + money he spend on food plots, minerals, and improving the property. Then I'd like to see how many people are willing to say let it slide with the landowners' promise it won't happen again. It happened once and it may very well happen again. I would have little trust in any lease with that landowner being honored.


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## mg3320 (Aug 3, 2004)

You're not going to like this, but in the end you don't own the land. Hunting leases are nice, but they are not iron clad. If he decided to sell every tree tomorrow to a timber company, chances are there is not a darn thing you could do about it. Moreover, if he or any of his family decided to step out the back door and shoot "one of your deer", again there is nothing you could do about it. If you are going to get upset about stuff like this, and you may have a right to be upset, you had better put that lease payment towards the actual purchase of your own land. Sorry for being brunt, but a lot of guys whose lease don't have the rights they think they do. Even large lease payments don't really guarantee you anything else but access to the property.


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## rhodes31072 (Sep 20, 2011)

You've seen all the different opinions, let us know how you handle it and how it works out.


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## Gyoung96 (Mar 5, 2013)

I would like to see pics of the deer


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## Joe W. (Feb 6, 2006)

Midwestvest said:


> Hey folks, got an unfortunate situation on my hands.
> 
> I lease a good chunk of land in the midwest and pay a premium price for it. I have a great relationship with the landowner, we really enjoy each others' company, it is mutually beneficial, etc. The lease is exclusive...and in writing: meaning I have paid and signed for the sole rights to deer hunt.
> 
> ...


Dude......I know it is your money and your passion and your legal right ...but is it really the WORST possible thing that could have happened? That a young kid on his first youth hunt shot a great deer? Is it? take a chill......go see the kids deer....congratulate him....when you see how happy he is maybe you will feel differently. Maybe he is a great kid and will now pass it on to his kids. Maybe he will hunt now instead of getting high in the school yard. the deer is dead now....make lemonade.


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## DonMatzeder (Sep 28, 2012)

Everyone is happy for the kid but where I am from, a very small percentage of kids on youth hunts ever get a shot. It is just an excuse for dad to get an early season firearms deer without using one of his tags. I see 50 pound kids being drug to the stand with the dad carrying a 300mag and coming back grinning with the kid half asleep. Your best option is to tell the owner that this has caused you to evaluate what you are paying for the lease and land development. This has led you to want a longer term agreement in a lease/purchase or contract to deed deal. Use your lease payment plus the lease back of the farming land and the house as your payment. You then are in control and you could write in a balloon closeout of the deal if it passes into an estate.


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## saskguy (Aug 25, 2007)

I'm wondering what the odds were that the kid's dad knew the buck was there?
I suspect high and would almost bet someone shady pulled a fast one on the landowner and the kid was a pawn in the game.


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## Midwestvest (Feb 3, 2012)

saskguy said:


> I'm wondering what the odds were that the kid's dad knew the buck was there?
> I suspect high and would almost bet someone shady pulled a fast one on the landowner and the kid was a pawn in the game.


I am worried about this, yes. Plan on meeting the father and son the next time I am up.


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## Fullstrutter (Jul 8, 2008)

saskguy said:


> I'm wondering what the odds were that the kid's dad knew the buck was there?
> I suspect high and would almost bet someone shady pulled a fast one on the landowner and the kid was a pawn in the game.


100%...this is the most obvious thing in the whole thread unfortunately.


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## Fullstrutter (Jul 8, 2008)

Midwestvest said:


> I am worried about this, yes. Plan on meeting the father and son the next time I am up.


Dude, you got 7 pages of feedback. Now throw us a bone bro. Let's see at least one pic of the deer please. It's not too much to ask. At the minimum, at least tell us in a 25" range what it would have approx scored.


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## 12-Ringer (Jan 3, 2008)

Good luck, please keep everyone informed - I am anxious to read how this plays out..

Joe


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## Midwestvest (Feb 3, 2012)

Fullstrutter said:


> Dude, you got 7 pages of feedback. Now throw us a bone bro. Let's see at least one pic of the deer please. It's not too much to ask. At the minimum, at least tell us in a 25" range what it would have approx scored.


I am not going to post a pic until I see a photo of the dead buck or put my hands on the rack myself, which I haven't yet. There is always a chance that the buck that was killed was not him.


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## 747 pilot (Nov 10, 2010)

*I agree*



Tugman said:


> That is a tough break. I'm as easy going as anyone you will ever meet, but I also work very hard for my money and I do my utmost to live up to my end of things. It sounds like you have a good relationship with the landowner. If it were me, when I next met with him, I would give HIM the opportunity to suggest a way to make this right. If, after a reasonable period of time he did not, then I would suggest that we need to come to an agreement on redress. As the saying goes, it's not personal, it's business. I would be professional and calm, but firm. When something fair is *agreed* upon , I would get it in writing... *NOW*.


I agree with this and would add one caveat. I would agree with what ever he proposes. Not require anything more than a handshake. If he suggests a 50% discount for the next year... fine. If he wants to give you 25% back for this season ...fine. You could approach it like "I feel like I'm due some kind of compensation for all this. I'm going to suggest that you come up with a plan you feel is fair."
If you didn't want to keep the relationship going your course would be different, but it sounds like you like the guy and the arrangement.


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## bigbucks170 (Feb 2, 2006)

un subscribed


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## ohiobooners (Mar 31, 2008)

Joe W. said:


> Dude......I know it is your money and your passion and your legal right ...but is it really the WORST possible thing that could have happened? That a young kid on his first youth hunt shot a great deer? Is it? take a chill......go see the kids deer....congratulate him....when you see how happy he is maybe you will feel differently. Maybe he is a great kid and will now pass it on to his kids. Maybe he will hunt now instead of getting high in the school yard. the deer is dead now....make lemonade.


In life, no its not the worst case scenario. For the current business agreement it is the worst case. I would have been upset if the kid went in and didnt shoot anything. This man spent his money and time for sole hunting rights. He was not given what he paid for. Why is this so hard for people to understand? Go to a restaurant tonight and order your meal. When they bring you 1/4 of what was advertised dont you dare say a word about it. Just say "well I guess its not the end of the world".

The fact that a kid shot it....who cares. Shame on his father for taking a kid hunting on land another man leased. It is considered poaching in my state because those hunting rights were not the owners to give away, he already did that when he took the OP's check. SO because the shooter was a child this makes the situation better? Nope. Dont hold the child accountable....hold the adults accountable. With so many ppl so high on ethics on here I am shocked that no one has mentioned that poaching is poaching. I dont know about the OP's state so that might not be an issue and I am NOT saying to go that route, Im just saying that if this were my hard earned money I would not want it to be spent this way. I do a very good job of putting family and friends a head of a deer but this is a business transaction that the OP was taken advatage of. 

If the landowner was concerned about the OP's opinion he would have called and asked his opinion on letting the kid hunt. Age is just a number. The best farm I have is owned by a man of that age. I am here to tell you that NO ONE will hunt that farm (legally) besides me. He is a true to his world fella that took discovering my grandfather saved his life in WWII to allow me to hunt there. If he can say no, so can another 89 yr old fella.


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## Yichi (Dec 18, 2008)

saskguy said:


> I'm wondering what the odds were that the kid's dad knew the buck was there?
> I suspect high and would almost bet someone shady pulled a fast one on the landowner and the kid was a pawn in the game.


Playing devil's advocate though, the guy could have known the old man has a chunk of property and wanted to take his kid out hunting to try and get him involved in the outdoors. Maybe where the Father hunts is public land nad he hasn't seen many deer. Could have been that he saw a bunch of deer (maybe not even the target buck) on this guys property and just wanted some meat and figured he'd be able to kill one.

I agree that the whole situation sucks royally, but it could be an honest misunderstanding and a dad just wanting to take his kid out hunting. Your buck may have just been an unfortunate circumstance.


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## timberjak (Jan 22, 2010)

I would bet he will not let this happen again. As where a new lease and land owner you never know. Yes its a big screw up. But if the land is what your looking for and you have always got along in the past. I would put the ball in his court and say you do what you feel to make this right. Then when he lets you know what he suggests if any you will know what you kind of person he is. Then you can decide from there. Good luck.


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## nicko (Feb 17, 2006)

I'd like to see a dollar figure as to how much the OP has invested in this lease. I suspect the amount is significant. 

OP, can you say if your outlay for this year alone is 5 figures?


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## GIL67 (Aug 10, 2009)

If the land owner is as straight as you say and is aware of how much the deer meant to you I would think that you will get a reduced rent next season ,but make him aware this cant happen again ,it should make your relationship stronger. The deer could have been poached in the middle of the night or hit by a car ,at least it's made a youngsters season


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## huntnfishnut (Jan 12, 2011)

I would negotiate a reduced rate for next year, a greater percentage if it is the buck you were after. Add that if it does happen again, full reimbursement of this years and next years lease.


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## maxx98 (May 10, 2010)

OK so what did I learn from this? I need to take my 6 and 8 year old with me when I ask for permission. 

Sorry to make light of your situation, Chiat happens though.


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## DeSoto65 (Aug 29, 2013)

You got your panties all in a bunch and you're still not sure it's the "target" deer?


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## stillern (Feb 1, 2005)

I feel for you man. You just have to weigh you options. If you have a spot with a world class deer on it never let it go. K don't even know how to advise you. BUT, I can say, the farmer made a conscious decision to allow the permission that per the contract was not his to give. I would have him defer all further access decisions to you. This way he is not the bad guy and you are happy. Regarding this move...I would say some refund is in order. Just don't go too far.


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## nicko (Feb 17, 2006)

maxx98 said:


> *OK so what did I learn from this? I need to take my 6 and 8 year old with me when I ask for permission. *
> 
> Sorry to make light of your situation, Chiat happens though.


According to many here, as long as the kid shot the buck, that should be enough for the OP to just let it go. 

There is plenty of reason to believe that father and son didn't just knock on that landowner's door by accident and that the kid may not have been the one pulling the trigger. I'd like to see a game warden get the kid alone without his dad present and ask him to tell the story of how the buck was shot. Then interview the dad and see what shakes out.


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## Yichi (Dec 18, 2008)

nicko said:


> According to many here, as long as the kid shot the buck, that should be enough for the OP to just let it go.
> 
> There is plenty of reason to believe that father and son didn't just knock on that landowner's door by accident and that the kid may not have been the one pulling the trigger. I'd like to see a game warden get the kid alone without his dad present and ask him to tell the story of how the buck was shot. Then interview the dad and see what shakes out.


Game warden wouldn't even bother. They were given permission from the landowner to hunt. Kid shot the buck during youth hunt. Is it really necessary to punish the kid for something that he probably knew nothing about?

The only thing that might happen is for the parties involved to go to court since is was a violation of the lease agreement, if it got that far.


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## nicko (Feb 17, 2006)

Yichi said:


> Game warden wouldn't even bother. They were given permission from the landowner to hunt. Kid shot the buck during youth hunt. Is it really necessary to punish the kid for something that he probably knew nothing about?
> 
> The only thing that might happen is for the parties involved to go to court since is was a violation of the lease agreement, if it got that far.


How is that punishing the kid? Don't you find it suspicious that of all the doors that kid could have knocked on, it was this guys door? I am not a suspicious or skeptical person by any means but something sounds very weird about this.


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## Yichi (Dec 18, 2008)

nicko said:


> How is that punishing the kid? Don't you find it suspicious that of all the doors that kid could have knocked on, it was this guys door? I am not a suspicious or skeptical person by any means but something sounds very weird about this.


Could also be just the opposite as I said earlier:



Yichi said:


> Playing devil's advocate though, the guy could have known the old man has a chunk of property and wanted to take his kid out hunting to try and get him involved in the outdoors. Maybe where the Father hunts is public land nad he hasn't seen many deer. Could have been that he saw a bunch of deer (maybe not even the target buck) on this guys property and just wanted some meat and figured he'd be able to kill one.
> 
> I agree that the whole situation sucks royally, but it could be an honest misunderstanding and a dad just wanting to take his kid out hunting. Your buck may have just been an unfortunate circumstance.


Could have been a number of different outcomes and chances are that the OP isn't going to find out the true outcome of how this gentleman and his son came about to ask permission or why they asked for that chunk of land. Could have been the buck, could have been they seen a bunch of deer and wanted to go hunt, could have been that its a chunk of land close to home that way if the little guy got bored or frustrated, they didnt have far to go to get back home.

We'll never know. But having a game warden sit down with the kid and mini-interrogate him like he broke the law all because he killed a buck that, as far as he knows, he killed on a deer hunt with his dad legally.

Would you advocate the same thing if he killed a fawn or a doe?


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## mg3320 (Aug 3, 2004)

He said he regretted it, I would leave it at that. As a landowner if you pushed this with me after I apologized, then I would tell you to find a new farm next year. If you want 100% control, buy your own property. Any rural judge would laugh you out of the county if you made a legal complaint. If you're happy with your lease, and your relationship with the landlord, you had better just shut up. Otherwise, get a real estate guide and do your own thing. You'll probably be better off based on your comments here. I am not trying to be a jerk, but unless your lease payments are higher than I have ever seen, they would not even hold a candle to landowner farming costs, taxes, upkeep, etc. Once you own your own farm, you'll understand. Should he have lived up to his word and the written lease, absolutely. Do you pay him enough to take any more crap on this issue, absolutely not.


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## ricetime (Oct 15, 2008)

Midwestvest said:


> I am not going to post a pic until I see a photo of the dead buck or put my hands on the rack myself, which I haven't yet. There is always a chance that the buck that was killed was not him.


Yes at 89 who knows what he saw. Or if he saw. Would there be any chance of you purchasing the land out right?


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## Joe W. (Feb 6, 2006)

ohiobooners said:


> In life, no its not the worst case scenario. For the current business agreement it is the worst case. I would have been upset if the kid went in and didnt shoot anything. This man spent his money and time for sole hunting rights. He was not given what he paid for. Why is this so hard for people to understand? Go to a restaurant tonight and order your meal. When they bring you 1/4 of what was advertised dont you dare say a word about it. Just say "well I guess its not the end of the world".
> 
> The fact that a kid shot it....who cares. Shame on his father for taking a kid hunting on land another man leased. It is considered poaching in my state because those hunting rights were not the owners to give away, he already did that when he took the OP's check. SO because the shooter was a child this makes the situation better? Nope. Dont hold the child accountable....hold the adults accountable. With so many ppl so high on ethics on here I am shocked that no one has mentioned that poaching is poaching. I dont know about the OP's state so that might not be an issue and I am NOT saying to go that route, Im just saying that if this were my hard earned money I would not want it to be spent this way. I do a very good job of putting family and friends a head of a deer but this is a business transaction that the OP was taken advatage of.
> 
> If the landowner was concerned about the OP's opinion he would have called and asked his opinion on letting the kid hunt. Age is just a number. The best farm I have is owned by a man of that age. I am here to tell you that NO ONE will hunt that farm (legally) besides me. He is a true to his world fella that took discovering my grandfather saved his life in WWII to allow me to hunt there. If he can say no, so can another 89 yr old fella.


OK......go make a huge stink.....demand compensation....threaten legal action.....alienate the landowner....get your money back and sit home choking the chicken because you have no place to hunt and it is only October 15th. Is that a better outcome? Instead of thinking the worst of the landowner and the kids father (all he did was ask permission and everybody here has put horns and a tail on him)...maybe the owner just felt sorry for a kid who had no place to hunt. People often lose sight of what hunting is supposed to be....a bond between generations....I have never forgotten how cool it was to hunt with my dad and he has been gone since 1987. Lighten up Francis.


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## Midwestvest (Feb 3, 2012)

The landowner just called me again...it is the big buck. A few things came out of the conversation...apparently the father used to hunt the farm before we leased the property, which leads me to believe he 1. knew exactly where he was going and 2. probably had seen the buck and knew its wherabouts. and 3. might have been hunting behind our backs all along

The most disturbing thing is that the guy told the farmer that one of our TC's got them on camera. Again, another reason to believe that we wouldn't have known about this unless it was the big deer and if they hadn't been caught.

Finally, our farmer said that the dad asked if "the guy who leased the property was upset." Our farmer said he is very upset and that the guy whose son killed it laughed at the situation.

This is not good. Unless a heavily renegotiated lease agreement comes about I will be finding new property. 

I am not going to post pictures and will be waiting to see if they pop up on their own on the internet.


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## ohiobooners (Mar 31, 2008)

Joe W. said:


> OK......go make a huge stink.....demand compensation....threaten legal action.....alienate the landowner....get your money back and sit home choking the chicken because you have no place to hunt and it is only October 15th. Is that a better outcome? Instead of thinking the worst of the landowner and the kids father (all he did was ask permission and everybody here has put horns and a tail on him)...maybe the owner just felt sorry for a kid who had no place to hunt. People often lose sight of what hunting is supposed to be....a bond between generations....I have never forgotten how cool it was to hunt with my dad and he has been gone since 1987. Lighten up Francis.


Ok since you want to be a funny guy, read the post DIRECTLY BELOW THIS LAST POST OF YOURS from the OP and the new news that came out. Seems I was right. Francis wont be lightening up.


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## ohiobooners (Mar 31, 2008)

Joe W. said:


> OK......go make a huge stink.....demand compensation....threaten legal action.....alienate the landowner....get your money back and sit home choking the chicken because you have no place to hunt and it is only October 15th. Is that a better outcome? Instead of thinking the worst of the landowner and the kids father (all he did was ask permission and everybody here has put horns and a tail on him)...maybe the owner just felt sorry for a kid who had no place to hunt. People often lose sight of what hunting is supposed to be....a bond between generations....I have never forgotten how cool it was to hunt with my dad and he has been gone since 1987. Lighten up Francis.


Further more, I need the address of the land you hunt. No worries tho, I'll bring my 5 year old so we wont be poaching, we'll simply be bonding. If that dad wants to bond with his kid he can pay for a lease, ask permission on unleased land, go to public land, or buy his own farm. The OP was taken advatage of.


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## Joe W. (Feb 6, 2006)

ohiobooners said:


> Further more, I need the address of the land you hunt. No worries tho, I'll bring my 5 year old so we wont be poaching, we'll simply be bonding. If that dad wants to bond with his kid he can pay for a lease, ask permission on unleased land, go to public land, or buy his own farm. The OP was taken advatage of.


Dude......go ahead and battle your way through life....everyone is a scumbag....everybody sucks and is out to get you.....hunting is the most important thing in the world and the 11 year old was in on the "Great Deer Conspiracy". I'll take your boy hunting any day.....my hunting objective is to enjoy it and pass it on.

The landowner called the OP to tell him all about it because it was a big conspiracy and he thought that would be the best way to keep a lid on it.

No matter how much ass you kick that deer is still dead.
AND FURTHERMORE.....YOUR SIG IS JUST FOR SHOW?....GOD? LOVING FELLOW MAN?* Except when it comes to big deer I guess.
'A*


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## WVohioFAN (Jun 5, 2011)

Midwestvest said:


> The landowner just called me again...it is the big buck. A few things came out of the conversation...apparently the father used to hunt the farm before we leased the property, which leads me to believe he 1. knew exactly where he was going and 2. probably had seen the buck and knew its wherabouts. and 3. might have been hunting behind our backs all along
> 
> The most disturbing thing is that the guy told the farmer that one of our TC's got them on camera. Again, another reason to believe that we wouldn't have known about this unless it was the big deer and if they hadn't been caught.
> 
> ...


If you stay with that lease I am going to question your intelligence. Scratch that.... if you stay, you're an idiot.


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## Yichi (Dec 18, 2008)

Midwestvest said:


> The landowner just called me again...it is the big buck. A few things came out of the conversation...apparently the father used to hunt the farm before we leased the property, which leads me to believe he 1. knew exactly where he was going and 2. probably had seen the buck and knew its wherabouts. and 3. might have been hunting behind our backs all along
> 
> The most disturbing thing is that the guy told the farmer that one of our TC's got them on camera. Again, another reason to believe that we wouldn't have known about this unless it was the big deer and if they hadn't been caught.
> 
> ...


Then I retract my statements about a Father just taking his son out hunting. It now sounds like that this guy knew EXACTLY what deer were there and why you were hunting there. Since the guy had hunted it before, the landowner knew him and his family prior, so it wasn't just a stranger. So, yes, this whole thing was a setup by the guy and his son to kill the big buck that you were after and they knew it was on that property. He brought his son with him to gain permission as to label the landowner as a bad guy who would turn down an 11yr old to go out and hunt with his dad. This guy knew exactly how to push the old man's buttons and it worked and they got the deer they were after, your deer.


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## dogg3250 (Aug 16, 2006)

Is the land that good that you want to continue to hunt it? if it is then you have to let it go, asking for a reduced rate this year maybe, next year as well is most likely going to get you the boot. Most people are going to say it is just a deer get over it. I understand the financial and time commitment you have into that Deer and the herd in general. Talk to the land owner and let him know that if anyone comes knocking that you want a phone call first and together you will decide what to do about it. Also remember that this bucks genetics are all over that farm.


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## robampton (Nov 24, 2004)

Midwestvest said:


> The landowner just called me again...it is the big buck. A few things came out of the conversation...apparently the father used to hunt the farm before we leased the property, which leads me to believe he 1. knew exactly where he was going and 2. probably had seen the buck and knew its wherabouts. and 3. might have been hunting behind our backs all along
> 
> The most disturbing thing is that the guy told the farmer that one of our TC's got them on camera. Again, another reason to believe that we wouldn't have known about this unless it was the big deer and if they hadn't been caught.
> 
> ...


The only thing is that when the landowner saw the reaction of the father, he might have seen how callous the guy was and confirm how big of a mistake this was. It might give him the spine he needs to enforce the agreement moving forward. 

A question I have is this, and I am sure it would depend on how the agreement was written, but wouldnt you have a right to have someone busted for trespassing if you have exclusive rights to hunt the property? I guess what I am asking is this. If the landowner signed an agreement with you, he no longer has the authority to give permission to hunt does he?


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## sway415 (Jan 31, 2012)

Midwestvest said:


> The landowner just called me again...it is the big buck. A few things came out of the conversation...apparently the father used to hunt the farm before we leased the property, which leads me to believe he 1. knew exactly where he was going and 2. probably had seen the buck and knew its wherabouts. and 3. might have been hunting behind our backs all along
> 
> The most disturbing thing is that the guy told the farmer that one of our TC's got them on camera. Again, another reason to believe that we wouldn't have known about this unless it was the big deer and if they hadn't been caught.
> 
> ...


Wow, this sounds like an awful situation to be in. I have to wonder, if it truly is a "world class" deer, what would happen if the guy/kid try to take this deer on the road and turn a profit from it? I mean, if it were me and I saw this kid on the cover of magazines, getting endorsements, etc. to display this deer I would have to imagine I'd do something...


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## brangus (Mar 31, 2005)

What would the landowner do if he caught you hunting on his land without permission and you had killed a monster, record book buck ? I know 2 guys that hunt the youth turkey season with their young nephews every spring just so they can get a jump on turkey hunting....the kids are there just incase someone questions them. If the ground is as good as you say you are going to have to get over it or leave....what else can you do not living there or owning it ? Good luck.


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## davydtune (Apr 27, 2007)

You should get next year for free


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## huntin4Christ (Sep 3, 2009)

sway415 said:


> Wow, this sounds like an awful situation to be in. I have to wonder, if it truly is a "world class" deer, what would happen if the guy/kid try to take this deer on the road and turn a profit from it? I mean, if it were me and I saw this kid on the cover of magazines, getting endorsements, etc. to display this deer I would have to imagine I'd do something...


This is exactly what I was thinking......if this buck is truly as big as what it is being made out to be, then one of the bigger magazines is going to want the story. If the killing of this deer does stir up a racket in the hunting community, it will be interesting to see what comes of it.


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## Huff/MO (Dec 9, 2008)

Midwestvest said:


> I am not going to post pictures and will be waiting to see if they pop up on their own on the internet.


I wish you would have posted this in the beginning. I was pretty much here for the pictures.


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## Midwestvest (Feb 3, 2012)

robampton said:


> The only thing is that when the landowner saw the reaction of the father, he might have seen how callous the guy was and confirm how big of a mistake this was. It might give him the spine he needs to enforce the agreement moving forward.
> 
> A question I have is this, and I am sure it would depend on how the agreement was written, but wouldnt you have a right to have someone busted for trespassing if you have exclusive rights to hunt the property? I guess what I am asking is this. If the landowner signed an agreement with you, he no longer has the authority to give permission to hunt does he?


This is true, but the kid is the innocent victim. I wont strip away his joy, he knew no better. If it was just a grown man I would think about involving them, but as it stands, this is between me and the landowner.


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## Kansas Bruisers (Dec 14, 2006)

Midwestvest said:


> The landowner just called me again...it is the big buck. A few things came out of the conversation...apparently the father used to hunt the farm before we leased the property, which leads me to believe he 1. knew exactly where he was going and 2. probably had seen the buck and knew its wherabouts. and 3. might have been hunting behind our backs all along
> 
> The most disturbing thing is that the guy told the farmer that one of our TC's got them on camera. Again, another reason to believe that we wouldn't have known about this unless it was the big deer and if they hadn't been caught.
> 
> ...



Sounds like the dad was going in behind you and checking your cameras. He saw the buck and convinced the landowner to let his boy hunt. If that's what he did, he's a scumbag but unfortunately your complaint isn't with the dad, it's with the landowner for giving in to the dad and his son.

I don't know the landowner and won't presume to know what his motivation was, what I do know is my grandpa was a farmer and if there's one thing he would never do it would be breaking a contract because he couldn't say no to a child. If anyone knows the importance of keeping your word over leased ground, it's a farmer no matter what his age.


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## nicko (Feb 17, 2006)

Yep, the stink comes out now. This was crooked from the get go. I wouldn't trust that farmer any further than I could throw him and that dad is just as crooked. The farmer never would have told you if it wasn't for the big buck being dropped and the game cam taking their pics. 

I'd hunt the property a bit more, drop a deer or two for your freezer, and demand a refund of my lease money for this year. It sucks in a big way but I think you need to move on to another property and a more honorable landowner.


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## gatorbait42 (Jun 17, 2007)

Midwestvest said:


> The landowner just called me again...it is the big buck. A few things came out of the conversation...apparently the father used to hunt the farm before we leased the property, which leads me to believe he 1. knew exactly where he was going and 2. probably had seen the buck and knew its wherabouts. and 3. might have been hunting behind our backs all along
> 
> The most disturbing thing is that the guy told the farmer that one of our TC's got them on camera. Again, another reason to believe that we wouldn't have known about this unless it was the big deer and if they hadn't been caught.
> 
> ...


I'd say you got screwed. In this case I'd make it a point to get my money back, even if it meant taking the old man to court.


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## robampton (Nov 24, 2004)

Midwestvest said:


> This is true, but the kid is the innocent victim. I wont strip away his joy, he knew no better. If it was just a grown man I would think about involving them, but as it stands, this is between me and the landowner.


I agree with you, I was referring more to the future, if you stay, than about this situation. You can tell the guy that hunted with his son, look, I am not going to do anything this time, but you know I have the rights to this property and if I see any evidence of you hunting the property in the future I will pursue it. While it may sound weird that the owner of the property doesnt have the authority to let someone hunt, he doesnt. He willingly gave that up.


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## cschwanz (Sep 10, 2012)

You got worked over. Id want some or all of my money back for this year and Id have to really consider doing business with this guy again. This probably isn't the first time someone else has been back there without you knowing. And if you stay for next year, how can you be sure it won't be the last? Im not sure what land is around your area, but it sounds like you have some financial stability in your life to put out good money for a lease. Why not try to buy your own property and not have to deal with it anymore?


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## richl35 (May 15, 2013)

mg3320 said:


> You're not going to like this, but in the end you don't own the land. Hunting leases are nice, but they are not iron clad. If he decided to sell every tree tomorrow to a timber company, chances are there is not a darn thing you could do about it. Moreover, if he or any of his family decided to step out the back door and shoot "one of your deer", again there is nothing you could do about it. If you are going to get upset about stuff like this, and you may have a right to be upset, you had better put that lease payment towards the actual purchase of your own land. Sorry for being brunt, but a lot of guys whose lease don't have the rights they think they do. Even large lease payments don't really guarantee you anything else but access to the property.


I am a land owner and have also leased property and I do not agree with anything you just said. If he had a lease and it was worded correctly he has every right to that land as if it was his own. It doesn't matter if it is a piece of hunting land, a place of business or a home. A lease for property is a pretty solid deal and the land owner breached it. Now if the land was leased on a handshake then he is screwed. 
What he needs to decide and is the far bigger question is if he still wants the land or not. Because if he goes forward with anything the landowner certainly isn't going to extend the lease to him when it runs out.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I747 using Tapatalk 4


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## kilby91 (Aug 13, 2012)

Man, that sucks. But from what you say, it sounds like the father knew exactly what he was doing and dooped the landowner into letting him hunt that deer. I know how angry i would be if i were in your shoes. It sucks bad enough when a neighbor takes a buck that you have been watching, but when a person takes a deer from one of your stands without your permission, that would make me irate.. And hearing that the father laughed when he found out you were upset, that would make my blood boil to the point my head might explode.. 

Not knowing the hunting land situation in your area, it would be hard to tell you to walk away from the lease. If the land has the capability to grow one world class buck, it might have the possibility of growing another one. You are in a pickle, and only you know what you should do. But if you can't trust the landowner or the surrounding hunters/fathers/neighbors/kids, then i would have to question how much money/effort to dedicate to that property.


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## Rocky (Jul 3, 2004)

Maybe I have missed this. You do have a written contract for the hunting rights to this land and it states how much you paid and for what amount of time? I ask because in this area there is alot of cash under the table leases and then at that point U don't really have any recourse. It is still wrong but if people want to make this into a business transaction then it should be treated like one. Along with the reporting of income to the IRS for the landowner and the specifics stated on the lease as to what seasons and or all hunting and so on and so forth that in no way is anyone else to be on property for hunting purposes.


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## ohiobooners (Mar 31, 2008)

Joe W. said:


> Dude......go ahead and battle your way through life....everyone is a scumbag....everybody sucks and is out to get you.....hunting is the most important thing in the world and the 11 year old was in on the "Great Deer Conspiracy". I'll take your boy hunting any day.....my hunting objective is to enjoy it and pass it on.
> 
> The landowner called the OP to tell him all about it because it was a big conspiracy and he thought that would be the best way to keep a lid on it.
> 
> ...


You really should know your audience before you make those kind of comments. Your ignorance over flows at this very moment. I was right about the situation. I said the OP should not allow himeslf to be walked on. He should make sure his contracts are honored the way they should be. I said not to hold the child accountable, yet the adult, who low and behold turns out is a jerk. I asked for no asses to be kicked and no hard words to be shared. I said that this is not right.

I dont fight my way thru life. I actually live an amazing life and I have donea lot for archery and children. I teach ethics classes for kids taking their children to hunter safety classes. I teach an archery in the schools program. I teach the boyscouts archery on my land and have never taken a dime for it. I take 3-5 children hunting every year and let them shoot whatever they want on heavly managed land. I fight for hunters rights year round. Questioning my signature or my values because I said the OP was mistreated (which he was) and he should ask for the situation to be made right, something even the good Lord teaches, makes you look silly seeing that you do not know me. I dont need to know the land owner to know that breaking a contract is not honorable. Are deer the most important thing in life? Not even close and PLEASE copy and attach where my conversation I ever mentioned the deer being the issue. PLEASE DO THAT. I said the land owner did not respect the contract and its obvious that this is true. Trading jabs at me when you do not know me is ignorant. 

I have been here for years and most ppl will tell you I usually ALWAYS try to offer something positive. I was giving my opinion that the OP was not treated with respect. You decided to call me out because you dont agree with my opinion. Then when I tell you I dont agree with yours. Simple enough. Taking a jab at my christianity, my morals, and my character is your way of dealing with that. Fine. I hope you have a great season and shoot a giant. Next time know who youre talking to before you make those kind of comments.


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## Kstigall (Feb 24, 2004)

Nothing about this story surprises me in anyway. 
1. Man leases hunting rights.
2. Land owner gives others permission to hunt.
3. On youth day world class buck is killed _supposedly _by youth.
4. Youths father had hunted land previously.
5. Youths father laughs about lease holder being upset. 
6. Land owner comes clean. It is suspected he came clean because he realized lease holder may find out anyway. With trail cameras and a "world class" deer the land owner was probably correct.

What about any of this is surprising?
There is no doubt that a multitude of laws have been broken. I could see a judge requiring the "hunters" to turn over the deer and for the land owner to make restitution to the lease holder. I doubt seriously if a judge would give the deer to the lease holder since the deer was technically poached and all deer are owned by the state.

If lease holder had been nearby it is likely none of this would have happened. The land owner figured the lease holder would never know. The "hunter" may have hunted the place if the land owner had not given him permission. If I was the lease holder I'd be super pissed! Not because a kid killed a deer but that the land owner screwed me......................

I think it is safe to say we now make too big of a deal out of killing a "super" buck. It is evident by all the deer killed in high fenced enclosures that folks play off as being hunted in the "wild". I know of a couple of guys that talk about the monster bucks they killed only to find out later that it was a fenced hunt area and the deer had tags in their ears and the price of the deer was based on the deers ear tag. Every year you hear about someone traveling to "trophy" state, killing a nice animal and then taking it to their home state and playing it off as a "local" trophy kill.

I know the hunters with "vision of grandeur" or the hunting "industry" in general won't like what I have said.


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## Joe W. (Feb 6, 2006)

ohiobooners said:


> You really should know your audience before you make those kind of comments. Your ignorance over flows at this very moment. I was right about the situation. I said the OP should not allow himeslf to be walked on. He should make sure his contracts are honored the way they should be. I said not to hold the child accountable, yet the adult, who low and behold turns out is a jerk. I asked for no asses to be kicked and no hard words to be shared. I said that this is not right.
> 
> I dont fight my way thru life. I actually live an amazing life and I have donea lot for archery and children. I teach ethics classes for kids taking their children to hunter safety classes. I teach an archery in the schools program. I teach the boyscouts archery on my land and have never taken a dime for it. I take 3-5 children hunting every year and let them shoot whatever they want on heavly managed land. I fight for hunters rights year round. Questioning my signature or my values because I said the OP was mistreated (which he was) and he should ask for the situation to be made right, something even the good Lord teaches, makes you look silly seeing that you do not know me. I dont need to know the land owner to know that breaking a contract is not honorable. Are deer the most important thing in life? Not even close and PLEASE copy and attach where my conversation I ever mentioned the deer being the issue. PLEASE DO THAT. I said the land owner did not respect the contract and its obvious that this is true. Trading jabs at me when you do not know me is ignorant.
> 
> I have been here for years and most ppl will tell you I usually ALWAYS try to offer something positive. I was giving my opinion that the OP was not treated with respect. You decided to call me out because you dont agree with my opinion. Then when I tell you I dont agree with yours. Simple enough. Taking a jab at my christianity, my morals, and my character is your way of dealing with that. Fine. I hope you have a great season and shoot a giant. Next time know who youre talking to before you make those kind of comments.


Feel better now? Have you pounded your fist on the "I AM A CHRISTIAN LOOK AT ALL THE GOOD WORKS I DO" pulpit enough for one day? 

Good luck to you too bro.


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## Square_Dancer (Nov 12, 2012)

Joe W. said:


> Feel better now? Have you pounded your fist on the "I AM A CHRISTIAN LOOK AT ALL THE GOOD WORKS I DO" pulpit enough for one day?
> 
> Good luck to you too bro.












u mad bro


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## Toonces (Dec 16, 2008)

sway415 said:


> Wow, this sounds like an awful situation to be in. I have to wonder, if it truly is a "world class" deer, what would happen if the guy/kid try to take this deer on the road and turn a profit from it? I mean, if it were me and I saw this kid on the cover of magazines, getting endorsements, etc. to display this deer I would have to imagine I'd do something...


From a purely legal perspective it would make an interesting case to attempt to sue the landowner for these kinds of damages. I suspect a court wouldn't entertain it long, but it would be a cool argument to try to make.


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## Joe W. (Feb 6, 2006)

Square_Dancer said:


> u mad bro


LOL.....not really.....just get tired of people shouting about being Christian and not realizing that by the mere act of shouting it they are acting very un-Christian.....the shoeless carpenter was a very humble dude.


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## Toonces (Dec 16, 2008)

Midwestvest said:


> This is true, but the kid is the innocent victim. I wont strip away his joy, he knew no better. If it was just a grown man I would think about involving them, but as it stands, this is between me and the landowner.


You could have a case for tortious interference against the father, at least something to consider.

_Tortious interference with contract rights can occur where the tortfeasor convinces a party to breach the contract against the plaintiff, or where the tortfeasor disrupts the ability of one party to perform his obligations under the contract, thereby preventing the plaintiff from receiving the performance promised. The classic example of this tort occurs when one party induces another party to breach a contract with a third party, in circumstances where the first party has no privilege to act as it does and acts with knowledge of the existence of the contract. Such conduct is termed tortious inducement of breach of contract._


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tortious_interference


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## Victory357 (Oct 21, 2012)

Midwestvest said:


> Yeah, I hear you, but there really isn't more than one of these in the woods, I can promise you that.



I personally have had my target deer, would have been the biggest deer I've killed in my life, shot and die right in front of me by someone who wasn't allowed to shoot it. Unbeknownst to me, the guy was hunting less than 150 yards from me. He was only allowed to shoot does. I heard a bow go off and my target 10 pointer comes running into view and collapses about 40 yards in front of my stand, as it falls I see the arrow sticking out of the far side of his body. The kicker - he had hung a stand less than 30 yards from one of my other stands, and that is where he was when he shot it.

At the end of the day, you just have to do whatever is going to make you happy. If 50% off next year is what it takes, then ask for that. You risk pissing off the farmer, but that is a risk you have to take if its necessary for you to enjoy hunting on that farm again. Personally, the money makes no difference to me and wouldn't make me feel any better. The deer aint coming back, and that is all there is to it. All you can do is keep hunting and hope that one day a deer of the same caliber will walk by.


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## Square_Dancer (Nov 12, 2012)

Joe W. said:


> LOL.....not really.....just get tired of people shouting about being Christian and not realizing that by the mere act of shouting it they are acting very un-Christian.....the shoeless carpenter was a very humble dude.


That's right. Jesus never once told anyone he was a christian. Got it.
Go cry about it in some other thread.


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## sway415 (Jan 31, 2012)

Toonces said:


> From a purely legal perspective it would make an interesting case to attempt to sue the landowner for these kinds of damages. I suspect a court wouldn't entertain it long, but it would be a cool argument to try to make.


Yea I really wasn't referring too much to suing the landowner, more of just blowing the whistle on the legality of the deer being taken. I mean, I don't think I could sit back and watch this guy/kid be glorified for a deer that for all we know wasn't even legal.


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## Joe W. (Feb 6, 2006)

Square_Dancer said:


> That's right. Jesus never once told anyone he was a christian. Got it.
> Go cry about it in some other thread.


What's wrong dude? Couldn't stir anything up anywhere else so you want to jump in here? Weak. Later.


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## Square_Dancer (Nov 12, 2012)

Joe W. said:


> Weak. Later.


don't sign your posts


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## nyhunt79 (Dec 21, 2007)

It's your lease with a written contract and it was also a record book deer.....I love how half the people on here say let it go, be happy for the kid, etc. I bet they would think differently being in your shoes. It's all how you feel, but if it were me if be getting a refund and finding a new lease.


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## ohiobooners (Mar 31, 2008)

Joe W. said:


> LOL.....not really.....just get tired of people shouting about being Christian and not realizing that by the mere act of shouting it they are acting very un-Christian.....the shoeless carpenter was a very humble dude.


You asked about my signature line and you know it. You asked if it didnt apply when big deer were involved. Come on man. I didnt just jump on here and start hitting you with a bible. lol.


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## bjmostel (Jun 12, 2010)

What state are you in? If you have a legal binding lease agreement then this is poaching and with the kid laughing I'd do what I could to settle the score. Some states will take this more serious than others especially if it qualifies as a "trophy deer". We are all refering to this is a kid but it maybe a 15 year old jerk with many deer under his belt and taking advantage of the situation and "youth season".


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## Victory357 (Oct 21, 2012)

Joe W. said:


> Dude......go ahead and battle your way through life....everyone is a scumbag....everybody sucks and is out to get you.....hunting is the most important thing in the world and the 11 year old was in on the "Great Deer Conspiracy". I'll take your boy hunting any day.....my hunting objective is to enjoy it and pass it on.
> 
> The landowner called the OP to tell him all about it because it was a big conspiracy and he thought that would be the best way to keep a lid on it.
> 
> ...




You are way out of line with this. Don't question someone's religion. 

Moreover, I find in life that the people who say "lighten up, just let it go, share whats yours, don't take it so seriously", etc., etc., those are exactly the people that take and take and never give back.


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## Toonces (Dec 16, 2008)

sway415 said:


> Yea I really wasn't referring too much to suing the landowner, more of just blowing the whistle on the legality of the deer being taken. I mean, I don't think I could sit back and watch this guy/kid be glorified for a deer that for all we know wasn't even legal.


I would probably do more than that, especially after I heard the father was laughing about it. I doubt he would be laughing after getting served with papers.

I think the OP has an actionable claim against both the landowner for breach and the father for tortious interference.

Not a big fan of locking up land in hunting leases, but a contract is a contract and the OP is entitled to remedies.


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## Victory357 (Oct 21, 2012)

Midwestvest said:


> The landowner just called me again...it is the big buck. A few things came out of the conversation...apparently the father used to hunt the farm before we leased the property, which leads me to believe he 1. knew exactly where he was going and 2. probably had seen the buck and knew its wherabouts. and 3. might have been hunting behind our backs all along
> 
> The most disturbing thing is that the guy told the farmer that one of our TC's got them on camera. Again, another reason to believe that we wouldn't have known about this unless it was the big deer and if they hadn't been caught.
> 
> ...




I agree with you that the trail camera thing makes the whole situation worse. I'd really be wondering if I ever would have been told in there were no trail cameras. 

I can tolerate mistakes but I can't tolerate being walked on. I'd probably ask for next year for free, not because the money is important but because then the land owner is sharing in the misery. Then after next year I wouldn't renew.


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## sway415 (Jan 31, 2012)

Toonces said:


> I would probably do more than that, especially after I heard the father was laughing about it. I doubt he would be laughing after getting served with papers.
> 
> I think the OP has an actionable claim against both the landowner for breach and the father for tortious interference.
> 
> Not a big fan of locking up land in hunting leases, but a contract is a contract and the OP is entitled to remedies.



x2...


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## gavennn (Dec 18, 2007)

Midwestvest said:


> Let me add this to the equation...I really think it is a lapse in judgement even though it is a pretty big one. I am not looking to leave this farm but think something needs to come out of it. What % reimbursement are we talking about? The landowner even knew that this was our target deer this year...was familiar with it, etc. Said "his heart sunk" when he saw it and knew he had messed up bad.


I think this alone gives you your answer. Other people cant assign a value to something. No two people are going to assign value to something the same. I would simply talk to the person, the way you would want to if the roles was reversed. I myself if i stated the same thing you h ave would simply explain to the landowner a mistake was made. You believe restitution needs to be made and see put the ball in his court as too whats fair. 

Money is always a big deal. You stated that you have built a relationship with him. To me damaging that relationship would be more of a loss than one deer. The fact that he told you the truth and felt extreme remorse tell him on some level he is scared of losing that as well.


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## Fury90flier (Jun 27, 2012)

Money back? Sure...proportionatly reduced. Cost for the lease (only the lease not what YOU have invested in hunting) divided by how many hunting days are there gives you a price per day...subtract the number of days he let someone else hunt...this is what you have coming to you.

Just another situation that proves, if you want exclusive hunting rights, buy your own land


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## cujrh10 (Feb 26, 2006)

I don't know exactly where your lease is but here in central IL things are about to start ramping up. My vacation time (the first 2 weeks of nov) starts in about 2.5 weeks. If you are in my area I really feel for you because having this dumped on you at this point of time really puts you in a tough situation as to where you will rut hunt on such short notice. With that being said, I also know that while there are a few 200 inch deer in my area there are also several other that I consider trophies that are reasonably smaller. I would probably renegotiate the contract and ask for a significant amount back from THIS YEARS LEASE. Let him know that 'NO' is simply not an option for him as you will take legal actions to recoup all of your investment including up front lease cost, time spent traveling to/from and on the property, fuel for travel, vehicle mileage, fuel for atv use, food plot/supplement costs.................. That is where my beef would be. Not so much about the deer that was taken but the contract that was breached, virtually throwing all that hard work and money spent out the window. 

I'm not a lawyer but I would assume that a very strong case could be made for all of these costs and the breach of said contract........ And I stayed at a holiday in express last night


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## Joe W. (Feb 6, 2006)

Victory357 said:


> You are way out of line with this. Don't question someone's religion.
> 
> Moreover, I find in life that the people who say "lighten up, just let it go, share whats yours, don't take it so seriously", etc., etc., those are exactly the people that take and take and never give back.


You got me! you saw right through me....I am a taker.


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## Square_Dancer (Nov 12, 2012)

Victory357 said:


> You are way out of line with this. Don't question someone's religion.
> 
> Moreover, I find in life that the people who say "lighten up, just let it go, share whats yours, don't take it so seriously", etc., etc., those are exactly the people that take and take and never give back.


just a little taste of yankee hospitality!


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## Joe W. (Feb 6, 2006)

Square_Dancer said:


> just a little taste of yankee hospitality!


I knew you just jumped in because I was from NY! LOL


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## bigbucks170 (Feb 2, 2006)

I have pics of the dead buck and trail cam pics of him sent from a friend..but I will not post them until the OP post them..hahah


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## [email protected] (Jan 17, 2005)

sleeperls said:


> Its simple.
> 
> You pay to hunt there.
> 
> ...


The money is exchanged for something specific and he broke that contract. Get some of your money back. If he is so "distraught" he will gladly give it back and keep you as his customer next year. It's not about the kid, and not about owning that deer. It's about loosing the opportunity you paid and worked for.

I didn't read all the posts after reading enough "It's just a deer", "suck it up", "honest mistake" posts. You guys wouldn't say that if this was about the purchase/lease of a house, car, appliance, bow, etc that you paid money for. I don't care how good of a guy your salesman appears to be, or how "honest" his mistake was...you wouldn't just shrug it off. Well maybe some of you would, you are the pushovers salesmen dream of.


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## IrregularPulse (Sep 22, 2012)

You ever know how many others he's let on that land. Perhaps he just finally got bit by them taking a notable buck this time.


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## Midwestvest (Feb 3, 2012)

bigbucks170 said:


> I have pics of the dead buck and trail cam pics of him sent from a friend..but I will not post them until the OP post them..hahah


I can't tell if your being serious or not!


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## sway415 (Jan 31, 2012)

Midwestvest said:


> I can't tell if your being serious or not!


I can smell the sarcasm in that post... hahaa... OP, c'mon buddy we need some pics.


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## Skeptic (Dec 11, 2005)

The permission the landowner gave was not legally his to give. That is an illegally killed deer. I'd let the authorities know and sue the pants off the landowner. Gotta make an example of them both and hopefully it doesn't happen to someone else.


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## sethfymf (Nov 20, 2008)

Its a kid be happy for him everyone acts like they own the deer these days I know it sucks and I'd be upset to but its life might as well look at the good side that kid will never forget this memory with his dad.As for the landowner I'd be getting some of my money back this year.


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## bgriff008 (Dec 28, 2011)

I sort of had the same thing happen to me 2 years ago.....but with alot less details and contracts. 90 acres of farm land ends at my parents back yard. We have known the farmer forever and he let me hunt there the other year. Well, I didnt hunt there last year, so he let someone else hunt, which I was totally surprised by. The farmer is real particular about anyone on his property. Anyway, this guy set up a shop and killed a monster. He got his picture and story in one of the bow magazines. I couldnt believe it. I was sick to my stomach. I just never thought the farmer would allow anyone to hunt there, so I thought I could go back whenever. No one had ever hunted there but me. Of course, I didnt have an agreement/contract, but knowing the long history our family has with theirs, it never crossed my mind. Oh well. Ive moved on.


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## EG01004 (Sep 28, 2004)

Where are the pics of this buck...trail camera even? What is the problem with posting them Midwestvest? You said you had trail camera pics. I would love to see this "monster" buck that this thread is about. This thread seems kind of fishy to me.


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## dsking (Aug 8, 2008)

Hmmmmmm.......It's a tough spot to be in. Bottom line, I would let it go. Nothing can bring that buck back now. The ground is obviously capable of producing big deer, and it's not worth the price of a season to chance losing the spot forever. Besides, the farmer didn't have to own up to it, but he did. Sounds like a decent guy who made a mistake. That deer bred plenty of does the past couple years. His genetics remain in the herd. 5 years from now you may kill a deer just as big. For all the talk of legal action, I say forget that. First it costs $ to involve lawyers, and unless you pay a crazy amount of $ for the lease the effort and money you spend won't make it worth your time. Secondly, as far as changing the lease agreement to include more "strict" language or talk of "potential legal action". As the farmer, if you tried to include that language, I would just stop leasing to you. It's a bad deal, I realize the time and hope you put into that deer. However, you just have to move on. I don't know your situation, maybe you have plenty of other farms to hunt that have "world class" potential. I know if I had a property that consistently produced trophy bucks, I wouldn't lose it over a mistake. If the farmer was being a jerk about the situation, then I would leave, because you couldn't trust it not to happen again. He isn't, from your description, so I'd give him the benefit of the doubt. He knows how upset you are. No need to ruin a friendship. Good luck this season, I hope you kill a giant!


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## bowscience (Jul 10, 2013)

I was reading through a few of these pages here at work but don't have time to read them all to see if my thoughts have already been expressed by another. I would say in reality that if you do anything like ask for your money back, request a partial refund or anything of that nature then no matter what the relationship is between you and the landowner it will never be the same again. Even if the landowner agrees to pay you back anything, still, there goes the once perfect relationship that you previously had. Next thing you know in a year or two the land will be leased to another. Yeah maybe he made a mistake. But all he had to do to free himself from the 11 yr old puppy eyes is that he could have told them that the invdividual that wanted to hunt should first check with you since you are legally leasing the land. He could have explained his agreement to the father and then gave them your number. That way if you allowed the kid to hunt for a weekend or whatever and he killed the monster buck you wouldn't feel quite as let down as you do now. I totally understand how you feel. Life isn't fair. If I were in your shoes and if I wanted to continue hunting this farm then the landowner would know that I was very disappointed but I would make sure that our relationship grew even stronger. At least that way you would feel that it will never happen again while you watch another potential world class deer grow. My only concern would be would the land owner have even told you that someone else was hunting the land if the kid had not killed the big buck? Anyway I would drop it and move forward.


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## Skeptic (Dec 11, 2005)

bgriff008 said:


> I sort of had the same thing happen to me 2 years ago.....but with alot less details and contracts. 90 acres of farm land ends at my parents back yard. We have known the farmer forever and he let me hunt there the other year. Well, I didnt hunt there last year, so he let someone else hunt, which I was totally surprised by. The farmer is real particular about anyone on his property. Anyway, this guy set up a shop and killed a monster. He got his picture and story in one of the bow magazines. I couldnt believe it. I was sick to my stomach. I just never thought the farmer would allow anyone to hunt there, so I thought I could go back whenever. No one had ever hunted there but me. Of course, I didnt have an agreement/contract, but knowing the long history our family has with theirs, it never crossed my mind. Oh well. Ive moved on.


That's not even close to being a similar situation.


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## Victory357 (Oct 21, 2012)

Midwestvest said:


> I can't tell if your being serious or not!


Because I'm curious to see the pic, let me suggest this. If you are mainly interested in proving whether or not they are posting pictures, you could alter your picture by putting two big blue dots over the deers eyes or something. If it shows up in a magazine without the blue dots, you know it is from another source.


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## hockeyref (Jun 2, 2006)

I'd go shake the kids' hand and congratulate him.... Tell him that I've been trying for that bruiser but he just kept out foxing me and (that) he scored the trophy of a lifetime.....

To the land owner.... "we should sit down over a few beers and talk about it since we're both reasonable men and is was "just a (really big) deer".... Yep I'm upset and disappointed, but I can get over it. Besides, that bruiser was spreading his genes around so he might just have a couple sons for me to chase in the upcoming years... This would put the ball in the lad owners court to come up with some "compensation".... Maybe a cheaper long term lease? who knows...


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## bgriff008 (Dec 28, 2011)

Skeptic said:


> That's not even close to being a similar situation.


Sure feels like it is, but without all the contracts and stuff. I get there is more to the OP's story.


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## sway415 (Jan 31, 2012)

bgriff008 said:


> I sort of had the same thing happen to me 2 years ago.....but with alot less details and contracts. 90 acres of farm land ends at my parents back yard. We have known the farmer forever and he let me hunt there the other year. Well, I didnt hunt there last year, so he let someone else hunt, which I was totally surprised by. The farmer is real particular about anyone on his property. Anyway, this guy set up a shop and killed a monster. He got his picture and story in one of the bow magazines. I couldnt believe it. I was sick to my stomach. I just never thought the farmer would allow anyone to hunt there, so I thought I could go back whenever. No one had ever hunted there but me. Of course, I didnt have an agreement/contract, but knowing the long history our family has with theirs, it never crossed my mind. Oh well. Ive moved on.


Yea bud, me too. I once asked a guy to hunt his property, and he said no. Then three weeks later some other guy shot a huge buck out there and got his picture and an article in a magazine too. What a jerk! Hahahahaaa... sorry bud, had to...


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## Kansas Bruisers (Dec 14, 2006)

sethfymf said:


> Its a kid be happy for him everyone acts like they own the deer these days I know it sucks and I'd be upset to but its life might as well look at the good side that kid will never forget this memory with his dad.As for the landowner I'd be getting some of my money back this year.


That's assuming the kid actually killed the deer and not the dad. If the dad was shady enough to go on the property when he knew it was leased, check the OP's trail cameras, and then smooth talked the landowner in to letting his son hunt when he knew the land was leased........... it's not to far of a stretch to think the dad killed the deer.


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## ohiobooners (Mar 31, 2008)

Joe W. said:


> I knew you just jumped in because I was from NY! LOL


Well Joe W. you have hurt my feelings beyond repair. I am going to blame you if I have a bad season this year due to my depression! :tongue:


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## Toonces (Dec 16, 2008)

hockeyref said:


> I'd go shake the kids' hand and congratulate him.... Tell him that I've been trying for that bruiser but he just kept out foxing me and (that) he scored the trophy of a lifetime.....
> 
> ...


That would normally be my reaction too, but the more I think about this the more it annoys me. This is how I view it:

1) Father knew about the exclusive high priced lease
2) Father knew the deer was on the restricted property (how he knew suggests possible tresspassing or prior hunting on restricted property)
3) Father convinces old man to breach the lease to let his son hunt that particular deer covertly during a special youth season, when he knew OP wouldn't be on the land and son would have the highest chance to kill the deer. (Tortious interference)
4) Assumption that father targeted this particular deer (otherwise why go through the trouble and legal risk of the conspiracy just to have the kid shoot a doe).
4) Old man allows this (breach of contract) (query - was the old man compensated in any way by father?)
4) Father & Son kill deer and get caught in the act (either by the trail camera, or anticipated possible publicity over the giant deer or both).
5) Father gets nervous, conspires with old man to try to smooth it over with OP before **** hits fan.
6) Old man gets equally nervous about possible exposure and does try to smooth over with OP.
7) Father laughs about situation thinking he got away with it.


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## Joe W. (Feb 6, 2006)

ohiobooners said:


> Well Joe W. you have hurt my feelings beyond repair. I am going to blame you if I have a bad season this year due to my depression! :tongue:


Dude....you know what? I am liking you more and more here and I apologize to you for some of the things I said. You can accept it or not...but there it is.

On the other hand....I went into Square Dancers profile and read some of his posts.....everything he puts out there is nasty and sarcastic.

To the OP....sorry for hijacking your thread....I hope your situation sorts itself out.


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## Skeptic (Dec 11, 2005)

bgriff008 said:


> Sure feels like it is, but without all the contracts and stuff. I get there is more to the OP's story.


The exchanged money and contract are everything in this story. Otherwise, its just permission(something that can be granted or taken away at any moment).


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## sway415 (Jan 31, 2012)

Toonces said:


> That would normally be my reaction too, but the more I think about this the more it annoys me. This is how I view it:
> 
> 1) Father knew about the exclusive high priced lease
> 2) Father knew the deer was on the restricted property (how he knew suggests possible tresspassing or prior hunting on restricted property)
> ...


Do you have a law degree? If not, you must watch a lot of CSI and crime shows??? hahahaaa... good breakdown though


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## Skeptic (Dec 11, 2005)

Joe W. said:


> Dude....you know what? I am liking you more and more here and I apologize to you for some of the things I said. You can accept it or not...but there it is.
> 
> On the other hand....I went into Square Dancers profile and read some of his posts.....everything he puts out there is nasty and sarcastic.
> 
> To the OP....sorry for hijacking your thread....I hope your situation sorts itself out.


You guys are making me feel all warm and cozy. Time for a group hug?


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## Square_Dancer (Nov 12, 2012)

Skeptic said:


> The permission the landowner gave was not legally his to give. That is an illegally killed deer. I'd let the authorities know and sue the pants off the landowner. Gotta make an example of them both and hopefully it doesn't happen to someone else.


Bingo.

To put it in perspective, imagine you have rented a house. It's Christmas time. The tree is up with presents all underneath it. 
While you're off having Christmas dinner at your in-laws' place, the landlord comes over to your house with a young Chinese boy. 
The landlord let's the Chinese boy unwrap all your presents, eat the cookies for Santa, and take pictures with all the gifts for the great memories.
You arrive back home and wonder what happens. The landlord calls and says, "Hey sorry about your Christmas, but this little Chinese boy had never
experienced Christmas before, so I thought it would be ok to show him what it's all about."


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## ILOVE3D (Feb 4, 2009)

NC Kansas said:


> If he let them, he's probably let others.


Did you notify him of the big deer before the kid shot it? Perhaps he also charged them to hunt there, who knows. It all depends on how much you want to continue on leasing and hunting his land. Seems kind of funny that all of a sudden someone shows up to hunt his land even if it was for a kid. Perhaps the dad was or did hunt/lease nearby land and maybe even saw the buck and had an idea where he hid out. Was he using a stand, was it your stand? Like someone else said, he might have let others hunt as well and they just didn't kill the big one. Glad I don't have to contend with leases out here in Arizona. You know up front that anybody might show up where you find a big one. Lots of good hunters here are tight lipped about where they hunt and what's been spotted and rightly so. As you already know a lot of time, work and money goes into scouting and locating a nice buck and the knowledge that goes along with being able to take him.


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## Toonces (Dec 16, 2008)

sway415 said:


> Do you have a law degree?


Yeah, but don't hold it against me.


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## BigDeer (Aug 9, 2005)

The '11 year old' was probably using dad's 7 mag too.

I lease in Kansas and wonder how many locals sneak into our farms. Broken contract = compensation. Ohiobooners, Skeptic etc...are right...it's bs. I would guess the land owner was compensated to make that decision to let the 'youth' hunter hunt.


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## brandon170 (Jul 5, 2010)

I'd get my money back, take my stands down and start looking for another lease. Don't think I could ever trust the landowner again.


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## BigDeer (Aug 9, 2005)

Is the kid the landowner's great grandson?


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## redneckromeo (Jul 11, 2011)

I'd meet up with the landowner face to face and say "well how do you plan to make this right?" The answer to that question should be all you need to determine the future of your lease.


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## ohiobooners (Mar 31, 2008)

Joe W. said:


> Dude....you know what? I am liking you more and more here and I apologize to you for some of the things I said. You can accept it or not...but there it is.
> 
> On the other hand....I went into Square Dancers profile and read some of his posts.....everything he puts out there is nasty and sarcastic.
> 
> To the OP....sorry for hijacking your thread....I hope your situation sorts itself out.


Haha. Accepted. Well crap now Ive lost my excuse for a bad season.


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## ohiobooners (Mar 31, 2008)

Skeptic said:


> You guys are making me feel all warm and cozy. Time for a group hug?


well yeah! you game?


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## HuntinFreak (Jan 26, 2005)

I'm surprised you haven't caught them in there or at least seen signs of other hunters because it sounds like it wasn't a one time hunt.


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## Square_Dancer (Nov 12, 2012)

redneckromeo said:


> I'd meet up with the landowner face to face and say "well how do you plan to make this right?" The answer to that question should be all you need to determine the future of your lease.


This too.


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## BigDeer (Aug 9, 2005)

HuntinFreak said:


> I'm surprised you haven't caught them in there or at least seen signs of other hunters because it sounds like it wasn't a one time hunt.


I'd bet the landowner knows when the OP will be there and when the OP won't. It's all about father and son bonding though...


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## WVohioFAN (Jun 5, 2011)

1. The Farmer knows(and is good friends with, I'll guarantee it)The Father.
2. The Father knew the buck was there. The Farmer KNEW the Father knew the buck was there.
3. The kid was likely brought into the story and used as a Pawn only AFTER the buck was killed.
4. This isn't the first time it's happened and it won't be the last.

5. If you(yes you reading this) can't see what's going on here, you're blind.


6. As I have said from page 1 of this thread.... get a full refund and find a new lease.


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## GVR (Aug 12, 2013)

If it were me, I'd take a copy of the written lease to an attorney and ask his options. I would likely ask the landowner for a renegotiated lease giving you exclusive access for the remainder of the season at a reduced fee (half off to free), with significant financial penalties for the owner breaking it and giving me the option to end it after this year. I would immediately start the legwork for hunting someplace else next year.
I don't know the legal ramifications of the leases, but it sounds like the owner had transferred the legal authority for granting hunting rights to you, which would make that deer illegally harvested. If that's the case, as soon as I had a signed renegotiated lease for this year, I'd call the states poaching hotline. Provide phone log notes from your conversations with the owner, trail cam photos, any other evidence you can come up with to get that kid's father (and/or the kid) busted. Whether or not it can legally be proven and prosecuted, he poached that deer and he knows it. If the conservation wardens up there are worth their salt, they'll have a nice conversation with those two.
If you really want to exact your pound of flesh from the shooter(s) and you think the deer will show up in some magazines, wait until it gets some publicity, and THEN drop your dime. If they get prosecuted right now, it will be rather quiet, but if that deer has been in the public eye first, everyone will know that guy is a scumbag.


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## Matte (Oct 4, 2006)

OP,

First off delete the thread. What you are reading is toxic only you can make a choice. It is always better to follow your gut. I am guessing most posters on here are city folks who do not know how kind hearted some country folks are. I can almost see the situation unfolding in a front porch of an old farmhouse with some local kid the land owner may see in church every weekend, "Go ahead kid give it a crack at em". Then dumb luck prevails on a wild animal nobody owns or grew genetically ( the ground did not make that deer, his genetics did ). Let it go and be happy you have a wonderful place to hunt. The land owner probably doesn't take deer hunting so serious so he may not know the feelings that have unfolded over this ordeal. Also realize you as a person who leases a piece of ground that most likely could have been hunted by any kid who asked is part of the down turn in youth hunting (land access). If I was the land owner in mention and seen this post I would refund your money. Then I would tell you, "you can hunt free next year along with anybody else who asked".


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## TJS209 (May 17, 2011)

What a crappy situation. Gotta see a pic of this buck dead or alive.


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## WVohioFAN (Jun 5, 2011)

Matte said:


> OP,
> 
> First off delete the thread. What you are reading is toxic only you can make a choice. It is always better to follow your gut. I am guessing most posters on here are city folks who do not know how kind hearted some country folks are. I can almost see the situation unfolding in a front porch of an old farmhouse with some local kid the land owner may see in church every weekend, "Go ahead kid give it a crack at em". Then dumb luck prevails on a wild animal nobody owns or grew genetically ( the ground did not make that deer, his genetics did ). Let it go and be happy you have a wonderful place to hunt. The land owner probably doesn't take deer hunting so serious so he may not know the feelings that have unfolded over this ordeal. Also realize you as a person who leases a piece of ground that most likely could have been hunted by any kid who asked is part of the down turn in youth hunting (land access). If I was the land owner in mention and seen this post I would refund your money. Then I would tell you, "you can hunt free next year along with anybody else who asked".


I have some Beach Front Property in Logan West Virginia that I'd love to sell you.....and I'm sure you'd jump all over it.

Unreal.


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## blackradio (Jul 18, 2012)

I'd be heartbroken. Now let's see the buck you have trail cam pics of.


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## BigDeer (Aug 9, 2005)

Kind hearted country folks I know won't break an agreement, contract or no contract. Apparently the landowner takes deer hunting serious enough to charge a pretty penny to the OP I believe. Plain and simple a few thought they could get away with the hunt until they shot a monster and they were caught on the OP's TC. 



Matte said:


> OP,
> 
> First off delete the thread. What you are reading is toxic only you can make a choice. It is always better to follow your gut. I am guessing most posters on here are city folks who do not know how kind hearted some country folks are. I can almost see the situation unfolding in a front porch of an old farmhouse with some local kid the land owner may see in church every weekend, "Go ahead kid give it a crack at em". Then dumb luck prevails on a wild animal nobody owns or grew genetically ( the ground did not make that deer, his genetics did ). Let it go and be happy you have a wonderful place to hunt. The land owner probably doesn't take deer hunting so serious so he may not know the feelings that have unfolded over this ordeal. Also realize you as a person who leases a piece of ground that most likely could have been hunted by any kid who asked is part of the down turn in youth hunting (land access). If I was the land owner in mention and seen this post I would refund your money. Then I would tell you, "you can hunt free next year along with anybody else who asked".


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## BamaBoy (Jul 12, 2005)

I have been dealing with out of state hunting leases for more than 30 years. My first lease or two I felt a lot like many of those who have posted .... you leased the land, the landowner violated the lease, you have been harmed, you deserve some sort of compensation/restitution ... and come hell or high water you should get it. Maybe I have just been beat down by 30 years of experience but I feel differently now. Well, I don't necessarily feel differently but I have accepted that 90+% of the time that is not how it works out. I have accepted that, as an out of state lease holder, I really have no idea what happens on the property when I am not around. The landowner smiles when he takes your check and is very friendly when you are on the property. However, the bottom line is that the landowner deals with you only when you are around .... which is a relatively small percentage of the time. The landowner deals with local friends/acquaintances 365 days a year. These are people/families he has known for decades ... in some cases for generations. These are people/families he depends on for support of one form or another. I can't count the number of times that a particularly nice deer just disappeared from a property that I had leased and managed. The landowner was surprised that the deer disappeared and assurred me that no one else had hunted the property .... or he certainly had not given anyone else permission to hunt the property The first few times, I wrote it off to poachers, deer crossed onto neighbors property, etc. However, I finally began to install plot watcher cams high up in the trees on a few properties. The first of the plot watcher cams were crude time lapse security cams but several of the trail cam companies make them now. In a couple of situations, I asked close personal friends who had leases in the same area to quiety look in on the property when I was no around. Interesting what I found out. In some cases the property owner or other family members were hunting the property .... not a lot but enough to matter. In other situations, locals were hunting the property. Given the way they were accessing the property, the landowner undoubtedly knew they were there. Realistically you have a couple of choices. You can raise hell with the landowner ... in which case you likely will lose the lease. This was my approach for a few years. However, as I looked back on most of these situations I realized that I had lost a whole lot more than the landowner. The landowner quickly found someone else to take the lease ... which was more attractive due to the things I had improved on the property. Your other option ... and the one that I use now ... is to understand what goes on when you are not around, manage it aggressively and be thankful that you have a good place to hunt. By manage aggressively I mean .... treat the lease as a business, be cordial with the landowner but recognize he is not your best buddy, show up on the lease unannounced, try not to have a set pattern to your visits, don't talk about big deer with the landowner or any other locals, make sure the landowner knows you use trail cameras but do not share pics of big deer, make sure the landowner thinks/knows you use plot watcher cams that do not need to be installed at ground level ,etc. You don't need to be an ***** about any of this with the landowner. Have a reason as to why you show up unannounced, etc. Don't act as if you are trying to catch him up to something .... although that is what he will likely think. After 30 years, I have lucked onto a few exceptions to the rule .... but they are definitely a rare exception.


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## ohiobooners (Mar 31, 2008)

Matte said:


> OP,
> 
> First off delete the thread. What you are reading is toxic only you can make a choice. It is always better to follow your gut. I am guessing most posters on here are city folks who do not know how kind hearted some country folks are. I can almost see the situation unfolding in a front porch of an old farmhouse with some local kid the land owner may see in church every weekend, "Go ahead kid give it a crack at em". Then dumb luck prevails on a wild animal nobody owns or grew genetically ( the ground did not make that deer, his genetics did ). Let it go and be happy you have a wonderful place to hunt. The land owner probably doesn't take deer hunting so serious so he may not know the feelings that have unfolded over this ordeal. Also realize you as a person who leases a piece of ground that most likely could have been hunted by any kid who asked is part of the down turn in youth hunting (land access). If I was the land owner in mention and seen this post I would refund your money. Then I would tell you, "you can hunt free next year along with anybody else who asked".


Ya gotta read what they OP stated as the last conversation with the land owner. All involved knew about the sitaution and the father found humor in the OP's misfortune. 

The land owner understood the contract when he signed it. It wasnt his first year leasing to the OP. Had the trail cam not got his picture and the deer had not been shot, would the OP have ever known? Any way you look at it, that leaves a sour taste in your mouth. It is saying "I appreciate your big check every year, but Im still not going to hold my end of the deal"


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## Kstigall (Feb 24, 2004)

The *land owner* screwed you. That is fact. A lot of the rest is mere conjecture or has not been proven at this time. I'm guessing you spent thousands of dollars and a lot of man hours on the lease over some years. Let us say that the deer is worth $10,000. The landowner owes you at least $10,000. I am NOT saying the deer is worth $10,000! 

If the deer had been poached and the shooter arrested and convicted what would the state value the deer at?


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## hockeyref (Jun 2, 2006)

redneckromeo said:


> I'd meet up with the landowner face to face and say "well how do you plan to make this right?" The answer to that question should be all you need to determine the future of your lease.


Yup,,, that's what the beer is for.



Toonces said:


> That would normally be my reaction too, but the more I think about this the more it annoys me. This is how I view it:
> 
> 1) Father knew about the exclusive high priced lease
> 2) Father knew the deer was on the restricted property (how he knew suggests possible tresspassing or prior hunting on restricted property)
> ...



Yep, Well laid out.....
Now, If I wanted to thoroughly nuke this bridge and maybe try to bend the landowner and the dad over the barrel then I guess we'd be talking conspiracy, fraud, breach of contract, and whatever else my lawyer could dream up to get me payment for damages.How much would the publicity of the "world class buck" be worth?... Do ya think I could take him for enough that he'd just have to sign the property over to me? haha.... 

Generally not my style.... But then, I'm one of those "It's just a deer" type people that get almost as much from sitting in a stand and watching nature happen as I do actually drawing down on a critter..... Last year I sat there with my arms crossed and bow in my lap watching my daughter miss a deer twice inside of 25 yards from a ground blind. I could have picked up the bow and "backed her up", we would have had venison in the freezer, but it was her experience and I wanted to take it all in. Except what I pay in dues for my gun club, I don't know if I would lease property to hunt...
But that's me....


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## Matte (Oct 4, 2006)

Like I said thread is toxic.. Haters attacking other true hunters just for posting their thoughts, not to mention all the post about the land owner you call a friend over a deer. Glad some of you guys are not my neighbors here in Kansas, as this is not my kind of crowd in here.


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## onebigdude (Dec 13, 2012)

I still can't believe that so many people say let it go! Once again, what was the point of the OP paying a premium for sole hunting rights if others are hunting when he's not there? Monster buck or not, you are renting the land! Money isn't being thrown from helicopters where I live, so every cent I make I work my @ss off for. I wouldn't care if the kid/dad killed a limping half rack, the OP should have been informed that there was a party interested in hunting HIS lease and from there it should have been up to him whether or not they were granted permission. The kid and his dad could have hunted public and it would have been a great lesson for the youngster on what hunting is all about: patience, sitting still, patience, being quiet, patience, getting shut out. No way this guy and his kid are from the area and were unaware that a monster lived on the lease.


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## HuntinFreak (Jan 26, 2005)

WVohioFAN said:


> 1. The Farmer knows(and is good friends with, I'll guarantee it)The Father.
> 2. The Father knew the buck was there. The Farmer KNEW the Father knew the buck was there.
> 3. The kid was likely brought into the story and used as a Pawn only AFTER the buck was killed.
> 4. This isn't the first time it's happened and it won't be the last.
> ...


I would bet this also! Thing is it's kinda like being pretty sure the someone you know stole something from you, you can't be pretty sure, you have to be certain. Have you ever almost jumped in someone's S and then found out it wasn't them? wow! You're thinking how close you came to making a fool out of yourself. :embara:


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## WVohioFAN (Jun 5, 2011)

Matte said:


> Like I said thread is toxic.. Haters attacking other true hunters just for posting their thoughts, not to mention all the post about the land owner you call a friend over a deer. Glad some of you guys are not my neighbors here in Kansas, as this is not my kind of crowd in here.



If we were your neighbors we could walk onto your lease, kill the deer you've spent thousands of dollars growing, and then laugh it off when we find out you're upset.

Why? Cause we know that all you'd do is go "Awwww shucks!".

In fact.... what's your address? I'm looking for a good out of state rifle hunt and Kansas fits the bill. Be sure and practice QDM for me.


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## BigDeer (Aug 9, 2005)

Matte said:


> Like I said thread is toxic.. Haters attacking other true hunters just for posting their thoughts, not to mention all the post about the land owner you call a friend over a deer. Glad some of you guys are not my neighbors here in Kansas, as this is not my kind of crowd in here.


Other than Joe and OB hugging, who got attacked? Stick your head in the sand all you want, but the OP got hosed on this and it wasn't an accident. Wish it was honestly.


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## BigDeer (Aug 9, 2005)

seriously, can we see a darn pic of the deer??


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## WVohioFAN (Jun 5, 2011)

HuntinFreak said:


> I would bet this also! Thing is it's kinda like being pretty sure the someone you know stole something from you, you can't be pretty sure, you have to be certain. Have you ever almost jumped in someone's S and then found out it wasn't them? wow! You're thinking how close you came to making a fool out of yourself. :embara:


Yessir. The best part is, The kid didn't even kill the buck. The Father did.


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## BigDeer (Aug 9, 2005)

Hey OP,

Do you have a copy of the contract? When I started leasing a particular farm in Kansas I actually posted for some copies on AT and had several offer examples of theirs. Curious what language you have in yours regarding a broken contract.


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## berdarien (May 29, 2013)

You just gotta move on. You should get a full refund. Nothing else will do. I also would take down all my equipment and public hunt this year. It is no different then theft. You seem like an intelligent guy so act like it. No way would I be able to deal with someone taking something like the chance to hunt a monster away from me. It is not awesome that the kid poached his monster deer. Whether knowing or not it is still poaching and as is said often ignorance is no excuse. No idea where you are from but I would rather hunt 100 acres of my own property then lease a thousand from someone i can't trust. Good luck either way and I hope your season improves.


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## robampton (Nov 24, 2004)

At this point you have confirmed that the deer you wanted has been killed. Not trying to be a nag, but is there any reason that at this point you cant show us the deer? Lets see a pic of this beast.


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## hockeyref (Jun 2, 2006)

Kstigall said:


> The *land owner* screwed you. That is fact. A lot of the rest is mere conjecture or has not been proven at this time. I'm guessing you spent thousands of dollars and a lot of man hours on the lease over some years. Let us say that the deer is worth $10,000. The landowner owes you at least $10,000. I am NOT saying the deer is worth $10,000!
> 
> If the deer had been poached and the shooter arrested and convicted what would the state value the deer at?


You and a couple of the other guys DO make a VERY STRONG CASE for not letting it go and turning the other cheek....... Guess it's a matter of perspective since - as I've said - I do not and probably would not lease land to hunt. After thinking about what you guys have commented, IF I DID lease, I now believe that I would likely look at it as many of you do and would possibly be pursuing legal action.


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## BigDeer (Aug 9, 2005)

I know of some great public ground depending on what part of Kansas you hunt Mr. Op. PM me if you're interested.


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## BigDeer (Aug 9, 2005)

hockeyref said:


> You and a couple of the other guys DO make a VERY STRONG CASE for not letting it go and turning the other cheek....... Guess it's a matter of perspective since - as I've said - I do not and probably would not lease land to hunt. After thinking about what you guys have commented, IF I DID lease, I now believe that I would likely look at it as many of you do and would possibly be pursuing legal action.


hockeyref..

cmon, you took out the coolest thing to do...lol put it back in your post!


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## ESMO-Joe (Oct 18, 2004)

QS34Reaper said:


> Honestly......I would explain to him (the landowner) the amount of time and money you had invested on that deer and see if he would give you a percentage off for resigning next year. Obviously a good guy buy manning up and calling you. Make it sound good for you but don't come across angry or upset. Then I would call the kid and congratulate him on shooting a world class deer. After all he is just a kid and this may be his buck of a lifetime and your congrats may be what he needs in his life right now. Everything happens for a reason! Good luck with the situation.


Good answer.


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## rutnstrut (Sep 16, 2003)

I know you said you trust the guy, but you need to make 100% sure he isn't double dipping. For all you know, he could have leased it to the father/son for youth season also. Especially if the father knew about the buck and made a hard to refuse offer. The land owner may have thought the risk was worth it and is now trying to cover his ass.


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## hockeyref (Jun 2, 2006)

berdarien said:


> You just gotta move on. You should get a full refund. Nothing else will do. I also would take down all my equipment and public hunt this year. It is no different then theft. You seem like an intelligent guy so act like it. No way would I be able to deal with someone taking something like the chance to hunt a monster away from me. It is not awesome that the kid poached his monster deer. Whether knowing or not it is still poaching and as is said often ignorance is no excuse. No idea where you are from but I would rather hunt 100 acres of my own property then lease a thousand from someone i can't trust. Good luck either way and I hope your season improves.


I would not hold this against the kid... I know that my 15 yr old daughter still just follows me to "wherever I say that we are going to hunt today". She doesn't know any better and I would find it hard to believe this kid really knew otherwise... Or had the stones to stand up to dad if he did. My 11 yr old would probably just do as she's told and she's the one that will argue everything with me. It will get messy enough if dad set it up for him to be able to kill the monster and legal action is pursued....


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## hockeyref (Jun 2, 2006)

BigDeer said:


> hockeyref..
> 
> cmon, you took out the coolest thing to do...lol put it back in your post!


Whoops - you caught that!!!! I didn't say that.....:zip:


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## GVR (Aug 12, 2013)

Matte said:


> Like I said thread is toxic.. Haters attacking other true hunters just for posting their thoughts, not to mention all the post about the land owner you call a friend over a deer. Glad some of you guys are not my neighbors here in Kansas, as this is not my kind of crowd in here.


Just for perspective, I'm out in the country in Wisconsin, surrounded by lots of farmers. If I had permission from one of them to hunt, and something like this happened, I wouldn't consider it a big deal...owners just being generous, let a kid hunt, etc, but that's not the situation here. This situation sounds like something that could occur over in Buffalo County, or some of the other high-trophy areas. Folks in those areas understand why leases are worth thousands of dollars annually, and once the land owner signs the lease and starts cashing the OPs checks, he no longer is in a position to say "aw shucks, sure son, good luck and have at it out there...".
As for staying on the land or looking for a new lease, that's a tough call, but my guess is whenever some monster buck started showing up on cams I'd be getting nervous about someone coming in and poking it, and if you're writing a check for exclusivity, you shouldn't have to worry about that.


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## bullfries (Jan 11, 2008)

I have not read the entire thread, just the first few pages. But here is my take, the dad knew the buck was there and used his son as an excuse to take advantage of the old timer's kindness and killed your deer. 
I would want a free SOLE hunting rights lease for at least a year. He obviously wasn't malicious in what he did, but he screwed up and now he has to own up to it. I would try to work out a deal as reasonably as possible. At 89 he doesn't have many years left, and you don't know how many years you have left on the property.


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## sway415 (Jan 31, 2012)

I think we may have scared the OP away with all of our requests for pics... You've got us all typing like crazy and wondering what this brute looks like...


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## crawdad (Jul 21, 2008)

I think a lot of theses posters did not read the latest post from the OP. Now that it is clear that the father formerly leased/hunted this land, and is a POS that laughed when the farmer told him the lessee was upset, it seems WAY less likely that this only happened once, and very likely he planned to go in there and kill that world class deer, possibly with the kid as a prop.

OP, you need to go up there and check all your trail cams. Kid may not even be there, the trespasser(s) May have been there other times, etc. I wouldn't leave now in the midst of a season, but if no restitution is made, I would not be back.

I have to disagree with the post that said he only owes you for the percentage of hunting days that the trespasser hunted. That's crazy!


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## Bert Colwell (Jun 25, 2005)

To be very honest, my first thought is that I would get everything I've got coming to me! I can be very selfish and irrational by nature! 

Given everything I've read in this thread, and letting that digest for a little while before posting, I would probably have to just let it go. Good people are not immune to making mistakes and poor decisions, regardless of what is written on a simple piece of paper. I know I have made more than my fair share over the years. Right or wrong, the old man has a soft spot and let a kid hunt. The kid got lucky and shot the deer of a lifetime. I believe everything happens for a reason, even if I don't like or understand it at the time. At this point, the ball is in your court. It can either go bad or good. You have total control over the direction it will go. The entire thing is a little tough to stomach, but only you know all the details. I think you have to trust your heart and feelings, and probably already know what you need to do in order to sleep well at night. 

I would definitely make it a point to talk with the kid who harvested the deer. I agree it will probably make you feel better. That kid now has an awesome memory that will last for the rest of his life, and may have an impact on so many others too. Yes, your hard work, money and effort helped to create that memory. Even though I'm a horn hunter and live to kill big deer, how many opportunities do you have to help make that big of an impact on a young hunter. Harvesting that deer will be a pivotal moment in that kid's life, and could help send him in a better direction throughout the rest of his life. I can't speak for you, but I get too wrapped up in this stuff sometimes! Is it really all about the dollars and cents? I wish I wasn't so selfish! There will be other "deer-of-a-lifetime"! That what keeps me going back to the woods!


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## Midwestvest (Feb 3, 2012)

sway415 said:


> I think we may have scared the OP away with all of our requests for pics... You've got us all typing like crazy and wondering what this brute looks like...


I am still following along. I promise I will return to this with a pic when this all wraps up and I have decided what I am going to do. It really is going to depend entirely on how the farmer reacts in our face to face...I have a feeling I will know my answer within the first 30 seconds of talking to him.


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## Bigbuckdan (Sep 7, 2010)

Bert Colwell said:


> To be very honest, my first thought is that I would get everything I've got coming to me! I can be very selfish and irrational by nature!
> 
> Given everything I've read in this thread, and letting that digest for a little while before posting, I would probably have to just let it go. Good people are not immune to making mistakes and poor decisions, regardless of what is written on a simple piece of paper. I know I have made more than my fair share over the years. Right or wrong, the old man has a soft spot and let a kid hunt. The kid got lucky and shot the deer of a lifetime. I believe everything happens for a reason, even if I don't like or understand it at the time. At this point, the ball is in your court. It can either go bad or good. You have total control over the direction it will go. The entire thing is a little tough to stomach, but only you know all the details. I think you have to trust your heart and feelings, and probably already know what you need to do in order to sleep well at night.
> 
> I would definitely make it a point to talk with the kid who harvested the deer. I agree it will probably make you feel better. That kid now has an awesome memory that will last for the rest of his life, and may have an impact on so many others too. Yes, your hard work, money and effort helped to create that memory. Even though I'm a horn hunter and live to kill big deer, how many opportunities do you have to help make that big of an impact on a young hunter. Harvesting that deer will be a pivotal moment in that kid's life, and could help send him in a better direction throughout the rest of his life. I can't speak for you, but I get too wrapped up in this stuff sometimes! Is it really all about the dollars and cents? I wish I wasn't so selfish! There will be other "deer-of-a-lifetime"! That what keeps me going back to the woods!


Bert- you obviously didnt read the OPs follow up post about his follow up conversation with land owner. Long thread I know but seek out his post.


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## sway415 (Jan 31, 2012)

Midwestvest said:


> I am still following along. I promise I will return to this with a pic when this all wraps up and I have decided what I am going to do. It really is going to depend entirely on how the farmer reacts in our face to face...I have a feeling I will know my answer within the first 30 seconds of talking to him.


I'm totally just bustin' your balls bud... I understand. This is a very interesting thread so I know there are tons of ppl wondering what this deer looks like. Can you give an indication of what we are lookin' at??? 200"+ typical, 300"+ non-typical???


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## icculus (Sep 14, 2013)

would love to see pics of this "monster'. I feel bad for your situation, OP. Thatd be a very tough decision for me. I'm not meaning this negative but I'm starting to think that this "world class buck" may just be a little above average IL buck. He's dead man, why are you afraid to show him?


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## huntin4Christ (Sep 3, 2009)

sway415 said:


> I'm totally just bustin' your balls bud... I understand. This is a very interesting thread so I know there are tons of ppl wondering what this deer looks like. Can you give an indication of what we are lookin' at??? 200"+ typical, 300"+ non-typical???


Yes.....please please please


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## Yichi (Dec 18, 2008)

Midwestvest said:


> I am still following along. I promise I will return to this with a pic when this all wraps up and I have decided what I am going to do. It really is going to depend entirely on how the farmer reacts in our face to face...I have a feeling I will know my answer within the first 30 seconds of talking to him.


How about a rough idea of what you think he would score?


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## Bert Colwell (Jun 25, 2005)

Bigbuckdan said:


> Bert- you obviously didnt read the OPs follow up post about his follow up conversation with land owner. Long thread I know but seek out his post.


Thanks for pointing that out Bigbuckdan. I obviously missed post #206, which obviously changes things quite a bit!


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## bigbucks170 (Feb 2, 2006)

land owner is 89 years old? he is lucky he has any of his wits left at that age..not sure he has many years left.. something to think about before signing a lease or having hopes of long term deal.


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## sawtoothscream (Apr 19, 2008)

K so he knows the guy,let him hunt the land in the past . Not just some random guy with a cute doe eyed kid by his side. I bet he has been letting this guy hunt more then you think. He doesn't sound like a stand up landowner at all and if he was a true friend he wouldn't have screwed you out of your cash and target buck. He didn't even call and ask what you thought about letting the kid hunt, so he is sneaky, steals, doesn't stand by a written contract and obviously doesn't think he should have to talk with the guy leasing his land if others can hunt. I don't think this will be the last time he allows others on if you just blow it off. Sucks about the good land but the owner cant be trusted


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## zell (Jul 13, 2012)

Pics or it didn't happen!:darkbeer:


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## 184896 (Jun 28, 2010)

Don't know how I'd handle it,
I'd definitely be pissed off.


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## bigbucks170 (Feb 2, 2006)

the kids dad is laughing at you!! go call the game warden and have the kid and his dad charged with poaching. HE WILL NOT BE LAUGHING ANYMORE.. Then Sue the land owner for lease fees..


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## ksgoosekillr (Jul 9, 2009)

Midwestvest said:


> I am still following along. I promise I will return to this with a pic when this all wraps up and I have decided what I am going to do. It really is going to depend entirely on how the farmer reacts in our face to face...I have a feeling I will know my answer within the first 30 seconds of talking to him.


This happens a lot to out of state hunters who lease ground. Friends and family will always trump money no matter what unless you have a local presence. 

If I were in your shoes I would first find another local person you can trust (either someone on here, or meet someone) and ask them to join you on this lease, with the agreement that you pay the fee, they patrol the ground. Make an agreement to decided who shoots what deer and when (qdma). Since the genetics are obviously in the area there will be large deer in the future. 

Speak with the landowner and tell him you forgive him for what happened this time and that you still want to continue leasing the ground on the condition that he allows the local gentlemen on as well. Tell him you have a lot of time and money invested and you hate to lose it all, and the best way to insure the deer herd is managed well is to have someone nearby helping you. If this does not sit well, wish him the best of luck in the future, and let him know you are going to visit with his neighbors about leasing their ground. 

I would find the father of the son and tell him that since he has no morals when it comes to breaking another mans agreement you are teaming up with a local hunter to make sure this doesn't happen again.


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## Mike318 (Oct 7, 2011)

hmm, i mean. I would be very upset.

Part of hunting is watching your buck, you have hundreds of pisc of, die to someone else. but not like this....


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## cujrh10 (Feb 26, 2006)

bigbucks170 said:


> land owner is 89 years old? he is lucky he has any of his wits left at that age..not sure he has many years left.. something to think about before signing a lease or having hopes of long term deal.


who are you? did the OP post the landowners age and I just missed it or are you involved somehow?


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## cujrh10 (Feb 26, 2006)

ksgoosekillr said:


> This happens a lot to out of state hunters who lease ground. Friends and family will always trump money no matter what unless you have a local presence.
> 
> If I were in your shoes I would first find another local person you can trust (either someone on here, or meet someone) and ask them to join you on this lease, with the agreement that you pay the fee, they patrol the ground. Make an agreement to decided who shoots what deer and when (qdma). Since the genetics are obviously in the area there will be large deer in the future.
> 
> ...


Good post


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## Fullstrutter (Jul 8, 2008)

This thread is starting to get absurd with no idea WHATSOEVER of even how big this deer is. Yeah, whatever, you're not gonna post pics until it's "over", whenever that might be. But at least tell us how big the damn thing was.


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## goathollow (Jun 18, 2008)

Midwestvest said:


> The landowner just called me again...it is the big buck. A few things came out of the conversation...apparently the father used to hunt the farm before we leased the property, which leads me to believe he 1. knew exactly where he was going and 2. probably had seen the buck and knew its wherabouts. and 3. might have been hunting behind our backs all along
> 
> The most disturbing thing is that the guy told the farmer that one of our TC's got them on camera. Again, another reason to believe that we wouldn't have known about this unless it was the big deer and if they hadn't been caught.
> 
> ...




Sounds to me that the father needs to be stump hung not the old farmer. The farmer appears to be an unwilling pawn as is the little boy. The father should be scrubbed in a sensitive area of his body with a wire brush for a.) taking advantage of an old man and b.) using his son in his ruse. I still don't think the old man needs to be castigated but I am now leaning toward that buck was killed by the father not the son. Who ever suggested that the game warden be summoned so both the father and son can be questioned may be on to something. If the father did set up this ruse to kill that buck during youth season before the OP could get to it he would be subject to some fines and penalties associated with killing game out of season.

By the way, good luck! I really do hope that cooler heads prevail and this works out for you.....and I hope my faith in humanity is correct and the old man wasn't in cahoots with the father. If the father did kill that buck, sooner or later he'll have to brag about it or the kid will tell a buddy and his buddy will tell his dad and that dad will tell another dad and so on and so forth until someone tells the local GW...... If he lied to get on the property, lied that his kid killed it, he won't have enough sense to keep his mouth shut for long.


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## jaytea24 (Sep 26, 2012)

Depending on the legality of the lease I would potentially consider legal action. He doesn't let you hunt there for free, you pay him for that luxury and he basically wiped his ace with that lease. About the only way I let this slide is to get exclusive rights in writing at no cost for a few years. You have a tremendous amount of your time and money invested that he just pissed on. 

I also wouldn't believe that this was some random guy and his kid. Even if it were he should have set guidelines for them. This is totally on him.


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## bigbucks170 (Feb 2, 2006)

the kids dad is teaching him how to sneak onto or slick his way into leased land at age 11 ..how do you think the boy will hunt in his later teens into his 20`s..I will tell you with no respect
he is gonna get celeb status from killing this "world Class" deer. thinks he can hunt anywhere because he is a kid, and now being a kid that shoots world class whitetails ..he is entitled..


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## Buxndiverdux (Oct 19, 2008)

ksgoosekillr said:


> This happens a lot to out of state hunters who lease ground. Friends and family will always trump money no matter what unless you have a local presence.
> 
> If I were in your shoes I would first find another local person you can trust (either someone on here, or meet someone) and ask them to join you on this lease, with the agreement that you pay the fee, they patrol the ground. Make an agreement to decided who shoots what deer and when (qdma). Since the genetics are obviously in the area there will be large deer in the future.
> 
> ...


If I was going to do that, I'd invite the local Game Warden to hunt the property with me.


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## gridman (Aug 26, 2007)

Midwestvest said:


> Hey folks, got an unfortunate situation on my hands.
> 
> I lease a good chunk of land in the midwest and pay a premium price for it. I have a great relationship with the landowner, we really enjoy each others' company, it is mutually beneficial, etc. The lease is exclusive...and in writing: meaning I have paid and signed for the sole rights to deer hunt.
> 
> ...


point this whole statement out to him ^^^^^^^^^^and what you have invested that is now lost, and at the very least, lower the cost of the lease next year to make up for your time wasted


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## Bottmhtr (Feb 19, 2004)

when is the face to face with the landowner.


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## BowTechForever (Jun 12, 2012)

Give us as rough score. Over 190? Over 200 even? The way you talk about the deer it has to be bigger than anything you've ever seen


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## BoHunter0210 (Oct 3, 2011)

This deer better be at least P&Y...

Pics posted later and it's a 3.5 year old 130" ten point...everyone who read this will want a refund.

In all seriousness, I would probably ask for the money back or a discount for the future lease and maybe look elsewhere. If it isn't refunded etc then I would think about legal action with the landowner and the father.


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## BoHunter0210 (Oct 3, 2011)

I am still interested in the cost of the yearly lease and the amount of money spent on the property's QDM.


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## Toonces (Dec 16, 2008)

bohunter0210 said:


> this deer better be at least p&y...
> 
> Pics posted later and it's a 3.5 year old 130" ten point...everyone who read this will want a refund.


lol


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## ILbowhunter79 (Mar 15, 2011)

I would just forget about it, its just a deer, so what if its 140 or 190, there will be another. If your willing to pay a premium price so is someone else if you go asking for a discount and make him mad. could end uup with nothing.


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## nicko (Feb 17, 2006)

I said it before and I'll say it again. The only fair recourse at this point is to give the landowners mailing info and phone number to Jackie Bushman and Buckmasters.


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## swilk (Sep 14, 2005)

From a principle point of view it would not matter if it was a 1.5yo 4 point or a Milo Hanson crushing typical ..... the man broke an agreement and now his word dont mean spit. 89 years is a long time to have lived and go out without even your word being good.

From an Archery talk point of view .... how big was the dang buck?


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## bigbucks170 (Feb 2, 2006)

nicko said:


> I said it before and I'll say it again. The only fair recourse at this point is to give the landowners mailing info and phone number to Jackie Bushman and Buckmasters.


haha Good one...I spit after reading this


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## Mike318 (Oct 7, 2011)

fullstrutter said:


> this thread is starting to get absurd with no idea whatsoever of even how big this deer is. Yeah, whatever, you're not gonna post pics until it's "over", whenever that might be. But at least tell us how big the damn thing was.


amen!


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## mplane72 (Apr 18, 2010)

BoHunter0210 said:


> This deer better be at least P&Y...
> 
> Pics posted later and it's a 3.5 year old 130" ten point...everyone who read this will want a refund.
> 
> In all seriousness, I would probably ask for the money back or a discount for the future lease and maybe look elsewhere. If it isn't refunded etc then I would think about legal action with the landowner and the father.


Better be B&C for all this fuss! 

Seriously, no matter the size it would be disappointing to be back doored like this. Trust is not easily given but this trust was bought and payed for.


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## Fullstrutter (Jul 8, 2008)

I am guessing that the buck was easily 215" nontypical, minimum...maybe even 230+

I'll be anxious to hear how big it was two years ago (guessing 155"ish as 3.5yo) and how big it was last year when you guys had the gumption to pass him (madd props) knowing he was only 4.5 (guessing 180"ish as a 4.5yo).


Give us something


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## EG01004 (Sep 28, 2004)

Guys....it didn't happen otherwise a trail camera picture at a minimum would have been posted. This guy is pulling one over on everybody.


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## klutzington (Feb 22, 2013)

Found a picture of the brute...


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## Toonces (Dec 16, 2008)

This saga better end "Breaking Bad" style or I will be dissappointed.


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## PutnamCountyHunter (Aug 22, 2011)

I haven't read all 12 pages, but I fail to see what the size of the deer matters. If the OP leased the property and was hunting the buck and passed it for a couple years and was hoping to hunt it this fall on his EXCLUSIVE lease - he has every right to be bummed the kid shot it. I think he should be compensated in some way for the landowner breaking the lease, period. Otherwise, why pay for an exclusive lease?


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## EG01004 (Sep 28, 2004)

Now that is a "legendary" whitetail. Now I know what all the fuss was about.


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## 12-Ringer (Jan 3, 2008)

The worst aspect of this whole terrible situation is that an 89-year old trusting landowner who appreciates the sport of hunting enough to lease his land was duped by a fellow Sportsman. Sure some will make a case the OP losing the deer or having the contract violated is worse, but I just don't see it that way; that was the by-product by a very devious, well-thought out and executed plan. Even worse than that....a kid was taught a very terrible lesson....these situations are very troubling and have absolutely contributed to more and more land simply being shut-down.

With all of that said, I still would take the approach of meeting the guy, sure you can congratulate the kid, but find a way to make it abundantly clear that you know he violated your lease and you believe he took advantage of the landowners kindness and have reason to beleive he has been in there on several other occaissions, and a that you have been assured the landowner will never make the mistake of allowing him to hunt again, especially aftet the attitude he displayed when the spoke about you being angry or not. I disagree a little that your issue remains sole with the landowner, sure he gave why the permission, but you have no idea how well he was worked over...it sure seems like the hunter's father had a well thought out approach. 

I'll share one personal example of how this approach may help.....I have had the distinct honor of managing a rather decent parcel of land in SE PA for the last 8 years, I have been on the property for 21 years, but only recently have been "in charge". Part of being in charge, at least for me, was to introduce myself to all of the neighboring landowners, share what I was doing for their neighbor, ask if they had any concerns with trespassers, if they allowed hunting or engaged in outdoor activities (mountain biking, horseback riding, etc...) this approach actually expanded my range picking up three adjoins properties inluding a 200+ acre BIG BUCK haven that for this purpose we'll call the sanctuary. The catch...I could not hunt the sanctuary nor could anyone else and the landowner had given me written permission to post ans escort anyone off of the property. I also took the time to meet the local game warden and his deputy, as well as, two sergeants from the local police force. Now this may not sound much to you, but private and individual access to 300 acres in SE PA is UNHEARD OF...as a hunter who travels west each fall I can easily equate this a acquisition to 2-3 sections...that's how different it is....I property has been posted and patrolled heavily ever since, I have 4-family members who hunt the property with me and that is it, I have escorted several folks off the property, called both the police and the warden on more than one occaission, I confiscate stand and cams when I find them and leave notes on the tree how they can be retrieved. It took a. Good two years or more for folks to realize they couldn't just come in....now that I have established that on opening day of shotgun season in 2010 I was perched In my usual spot looking for headlamps going through the timber and listening for any shots. A shot rang at first light and I was on the move, as I crested the ridge I saw a a young kid standing over a typical SE PA 2 year old 7 point (maybe 90") and a father with the tell-tale "oh-crap" look on his face as I approached. I was very quick to congratulate the youngster and hung around while the went through the field dressing process, took a few pictures, and even helped drag to his vehicle. As the father strapped the buck to the tailgate hauler and the kid climbed in the truck I politely introuced myself and shared that I didn't expect to ever see him on the property again. He thanked me for treating them the way I did and not embarrassing him or alerting his son tot he fact that they had been trespassing. In fact, while they were field dressing the deer, I had asked if they knew where they were hurnting and before the father could respond the kid shouted, "my dad's boss owns the property and gave us permission to hunt", the look on the dad's face was priceless..

It turns out that this particular father is a prominent political figure in the borough and we had a chance encounter a month later at a Trout Unlimited event. Once again he thanked me and not only has he not been back on that property (at least that I know of) he has offered his support if and when I have been in a bind with others who fail to stop trespassing.

Sorry for the dissertation and I know the circumstances are not identical, but the moral of the story is that sometimes MUCH more can be accomplished taking a thoughtful approach.

Joe
(Sorry of any misspellings and grammatical errors, my IPad thinks it is smarter than I amukey


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## ohiobooners (Mar 31, 2008)

With the recent news that the father found this funny I would be inclined to call the local DNR and find out if this would qualify as poaching. I know in my area it is 100% poaching. Im not saying that because I would want "revenge" yet I would be looking to make sure that myself, or whoever leases the farm after you move on, doesnt have to deal with this jerk again.


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## Huff/MO (Dec 9, 2008)

bigbucks170 said:


> the kids dad is teaching him how to sneak onto or slick his way into leased land at age 11 ..how do you think the boy will hunt in his later teens into his 20`s..I will tell you with no respect
> he is gonna get celeb status from killing this "world Class" deer. thinks he can hunt anywhere because he is a kid, and now being a kid that shoots world class whitetails ..he is entitled..


He just set the world on fire!!!


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## bigbucks170 (Feb 2, 2006)

Huff/MO said:


> He just set the world on fire!!!


and his dad is laughing about it..hahah


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## dsking (Aug 8, 2008)

I'm not understanding why the OP wont show some pics. If the buck is "the buck" and that's for sure, then why not let us see the pics? Confused.


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## nomansland (Sep 12, 2008)

I'd love to know how much you pay a year and how many years you've done this. If it is really a "substantial" amount of money I would sue and really think you deserve every dime back. The entire point of a long term lease is to be able to pass up deer so someday you can shoot a giant. So to me this guy screwed you out of every year's few when they shot this big buck. In closing, sue for ALL of it back and then take that money and put it down on your OWN land. To heck with that guy.


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## cunninghamww (Jun 8, 2011)

dsking said:


> I'm not understanding why the OP wont show some pics. If the buck is "the buck" and that's for sure, then why not let us see the pics? Confused.


I had a situation where I shared too much info in a public setting about my lease and ended up losing it to some rando who figured out who the landowner was. I don't think anyone would like that.


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## Michael A (Sep 19, 2011)

Pics??


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## NYSBowman (Aug 21, 2012)

Toonces said:


> You could have a case for tortious interference against the father, at least something to consider.
> 
> _Tortious interference with contract rights can occur where the tortfeasor convinces a party to breach the contract against the plaintiff, or where the tortfeasor disrupts the ability of one party to perform his obligations under the contract, thereby preventing the plaintiff from receiving the performance promised. The classic example of this tort occurs when one party induces another party to breach a contract with a third party, in circumstances where the first party has no privilege to act as it does and acts with knowledge of the existence of the contract. Such conduct is termed tortious inducement of breach of contract._
> 
> ...



BINGO! ^^^^^^^^^^^


Sue the hell out of that friggin (insert expletive here)! I'd give the guy a call and tape the conversation. I'd bet that HE shot the deer.

At this point, the OP has no choice but to sue IMO(the farmer AND the idiot father). This goes way beyond being a "mistake".

Thousands of dollars changed hands....and then the contract was breached willfully(and surreptitiously). I don't give a rats arse if the guy is 39 or 89yrs old. If he's coherent enough to sign a lease....and accept payment....he coherent enough to sag NO to the scumbag dad.

To continue to hunt this property(and let the landowner off the hook)......would make the OP a HUUUUUUGE sucker. The property is(and probably has been) hunted MANY times by others.


I feel bad for the OP. But anything less than getting a full refund(plus damages).......would be a travesty IMO. 

The scumbag dad needs to be confronted face-to-face IMO. The best thing for the 11yr old is to see that dad breaking the law.....will not be tolerated.

I doubt that the kid shot the deer anyway.


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## BowTechForever (Jun 12, 2012)

Huff/MO said:


> He just set the world on fire!!!


Eyes like an eagle, ears like a hawk..... I'm dying laughing right now


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## Grifter (Jan 7, 2009)

1.	The age of the landowner who signed the lease agreement shouldn’t matter.
2.	The age of the hunter who killed the buck shouldn’t matter.
3.	How much money the tenant pays for the lease shouldn’t matter.
4.	The size of the buck killed and what it scores shouldn’t matter.
5.	What does matter is the landowner broke the lease agreement by letting other hunters on the property (and he admitted it).
6. What matters is the father of the youth hunter knew that the land was leased and yet he still asked permission from the land owner. 
7.	I would ask for a full refund for this year’s lease amount and I would not hunt the property again. I would remove all my belongings from the lease.
8.	Whether I was given a refund or not, I would terminate the lease agreement in writing immediately stating "breach of contract" (hopefully right after the refund has been collected).
9. If no refund is given and you want to take legal action - I would send a letter to the land owner stating that you are taking him to small claims court and your reasoning behind it. List out a timeline of all the events and all your communications with him. State the amount you are requesting from the court and list out all the additional charges ($ to file a claim, travel expenses, lost wages, etc...). Give him a adequate time period to respond and send the letter by certified mail or hand it to him.
10.	I feel the youth hunter is an innocent victim and I would not take legal action in regard to confiscation of the buck. However, I would confront the father if the land owner stated he was manipulated by the father in order to get permission to hunt. I personally would seek out a lawyer in this scenario.
11. I would document all your communications with the landowner and the father in case you end up taking legal action.
12.	Knowing the history of this lease, I would not want it no matter how good it is and how affordable it is. Reason being is that I could never trust the landowner again and for me it would not be fun to hunt the land anymore.
13.	One should never surrender their dignity.

I’ve been in your shoes and I don’t envy your situation. It was very difficult but I walked away with my head held high and I’m glad I did.


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## WVohioFAN (Jun 5, 2011)

The OP refuses give us an idea of how big this buck is and it's got us all red assed. 

You guys get the pitchforks and lanterns and I'll get the rope. We march on MidwestVest's house at Dusk.


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## probuck (Dec 28, 2011)

As much as everybody is always getting text messages of these mysterious big bucks that are sent around has anybody gotten a pic of a kid that has killed a world class whitetail during this year youth season somewhere


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## WhacknstackWI (Sep 19, 2013)

Fullstrutter said:


> This thread is starting to get absurd with no idea WHATSOEVER of even how big this deer is. Yeah, whatever, you're not gonna post pics until it's "over", whenever that might be. But at least tell us how big the damn thing was.


What does it matter how big it was? He pays to hunt the land, no one else should be on it hunting period.


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## wv hoyt man (Feb 17, 2012)

After 13 pages there should be some pics of this "World Class" deer.


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## chaded (Jan 15, 2011)

BowTechForever;106841004 2 said:


> Eyes like an eagle, ears like a hawk..... I'm dying laughing right now


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## Liv4Rut (Mar 24, 2006)

probuck said:


> As much as everybody is always getting text messages of these mysterious big bucks that are sent around has anybody gotten a pic of a kid that has killed a world class whitetail during this year youth season somewhere


Lot of talk of this one being taken in Eastern, ia. I have not received a harvest photo yet. We will see I guess. Sometimes you never know.


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## Charman03 (Jul 31, 2006)

OP is really dean bower, and this world class deer is really big boy


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## Bigbuckslayer (Jul 2, 2004)

PICS or it didn't happen:wink:


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## Huff/MO (Dec 9, 2008)

Charman03 said:


> OP is really dean bower, and this world class deer is really big boy


That would be awesome.


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## raptor4life660r (Nov 19, 2007)

What state is your lease?


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## wolf44 (Mar 31, 2009)

Charman03 said:


> OP is really dean bower, and this world class deer is really big boy


I just spit beer all over my computer


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## shaffer88 (Dec 3, 2007)

wv hoyt man said:


> After 13 pages there should be some pics of this "World Class" deer.


I believe we're all in agreement


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## BoHunter0210 (Oct 3, 2011)

Liv4Rut said:


> Lot of talk of this one being taken in Eastern, ia. I have not received a harvest photo yet. We will see I guess. Sometimes you never know.
> View attachment 1784569



Wow!


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## jeep_cruiser (Oct 3, 2012)

I'm throwing the BS flag on this one. :yield: 

If the OP truly has a private lease then a picture wouldn't reveal anything! nobody would recognize where the picture is, hence the PRIVATE part. There is more to this story than what we are being told.


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## Baldona523 (Feb 12, 2010)

Given the new information, I'd demand my money back this year, hunt this year, and tell the farmer "you are going to have to figure out next year after the season is over"; and most likely find a new lease. UNLESS, this is world class ground and you can't find something different for the same price point.

The guy who shot the huge buck is always going to be around and if the current landowner won't keep him off the property, no one will. The shooter is mad because he can't afford the lease anymore and is a scumbag, he's always going to be a pest. Sounds like he has been watching the buck and knows it WELL, well enough to kill in a couple days that he was planning for all summer long. The worst part is, I wouldn't doubt that he has killed other bucks off the property since you started the lease.

The first question i'd ask the landowner is "is this the first time he's hunted since I've leased".

How big is the deer? You can at least say Booner 10 point, 215ish non-typical 12, something?


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## Baldona523 (Feb 12, 2010)

jeep_cruiser said:


> I'm throwing the BS flag on this one. :yield:
> 
> If the OP truly has a private lease then a picture wouldn't reveal anything! nobody would recognize where the picture is, hence the PRIVATE part. There is more to this story than what we are being told.


Trail cam pics have shown deer to travel many miles, chances are the lease is a couple hundred acres. Many land has a field or 2 that deer can be seen from a road.


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## Make It Happen (Oct 26, 2010)

All I can picture is some buck toothed kid and a goofy dad hoovering over a nice buck with that big pearly white used car salesman smile for some reason. 
I dont know why... You know like the guy in the enzyte commercial for natural male enhancement. Yo know Bob haha

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=yYuBDIWpvT4#t=18


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## stillern (Feb 1, 2005)

OP...no doubt farmer and trespasser knew what they were doing. Simple as that. There is really no mid interpreting the lease agreement. Exclusivity is the only thing that gives the agreement any substantial value. Get this year free or at a discount. If you roll with enough $ to lease hundreds of acres in the mid west you will be able to secure good ground somewhere else. Once secured leave him flat ... he can scramble last minute or go without the cash. See how friendly he is with the guy who doesn't pay then. Worst case he is double dipping. Best case you still got hustled. I'd wait til next season on any dramatic moves though. Sucks either way bit it sounds like you probably have plenty of other tag worthy deer on the lease. Don't ruin your season. And to the farmer apologists on this thread, it's a contract plain and simple, the farmer breached it. There was an agreement.


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## stillern (Feb 1, 2005)

ohiobooners said:


> With the recent news that the father found this funny I would be inclined to call the local DNR and find out if this would qualify as poaching. I know in my area it is 100% poaching. Im not saying that because I would want "revenge" yet I would be looking to make sure that myself, or whoever leases the farm after you move on, doesnt have to deal with this jerk again.


Interesting point. Maybe that knowledge prompted the apology.


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## NYSBowman (Aug 21, 2012)

Toonces said:


> That would normally be my reaction too, but the more I think about this the more it annoys me. This is how I view it:
> 
> 1) Father knew about the exclusive high priced lease
> 2) Father knew the deer was on the restricted property (how he knew suggests possible tresspassing or prior hunting on restricted property)
> ...


If any or all of the above has merit....then the scumbag dad can/should be taken to court and sued. 

I love how everyone ASSUMES that the kid is some wholesome, innocent, little boy.....he sure may be, but he also may be a spoiled rotten, rude , little POS.

Regardless of the kids age...yadda yadda yadda...the deer was POACHED. It should be confiscated by DNR....just as any other poached animal would be. It was taken illegally...pure and simple.

Allowing the kid to keep the deer....just shows him that "the end justifies the means". If the father stole an Xbox from Walmart for his kid....should the kid keep the Xbox?

The OP was duped...and if he doesn't come down HARD on the landowner and scumbag parent.....any other prospective trespassers won't think twice about hunting that farm. 

There is NO RELATIONSHIP(other than bad) ongoing with the landowner. The OP THINKS he has a good relationship with the landowner...the old man obviously doesnt feel the same. No way in hell, he gives permission to ANYONE if he truly respected the OP.

The only reason the OP wants to save the "relationship"...is because he's got time/money invested in the property. He'll just be throwing good money after bad now.

IMO, opinion this thread is like many others here on AT. A person starts a thread asking for advice...many give advice....and then the OPs do exactly the OPPOSITE of what an overwhelming majority suggest.

Why do they bother starting threads asking for advice.....when their minds are already made up?


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## Midwestvest (Feb 3, 2012)

Hey fellas, I am still reading all of these, but I just got back from the woods and haven't been able to respond all afternoon. 

I don't really see the need to post a pic. Like I said earlier, I am very interested to see if photos of this deer surface over the next few days. Again, I am waiting to have a face-to-face with both the farmer and the father (that will be in two weeks) until I make a final decision. A lot can be said about a man in how they sit down and talk to you. 

Fwiw, the deer will gross typical in the high 190's low 200's and probably net typical high 180's low 190's.


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## WVohioFAN (Jun 5, 2011)

Midwestvest said:


> Hey fellas, I am still reading all of these, but I just got back from the woods and haven't been able to respond all afternoon.
> 
> I don't really see the need to post a pic. Like I said earlier, I am very interested to see if photos of this deer surface over the next few days. Again, I am waiting to have a face-to-face with both the farmer and the father (that will be in two weeks) until I make a final decision. A lot can be said about a man in how they sit down and talk to you.
> 
> Fwiw, the deer will gross typical in the high 190's low 200's and probably net typical high 180's low 190's.





Thank you. That's all we wanted.


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## Baldona523 (Feb 12, 2010)

Midwestvest said:


> Hey fellas, I am still reading all of these, but I just got back from the woods and haven't been able to respond all afternoon.
> 
> I don't really see the need to post a pic. Like I said earlier, I am very interested to see if photos of this deer surface over the next few days. Again, I am waiting to have a face-to-face with both the farmer and the father (that will be in two weeks) until I make a final decision. A lot can be said about a man in how they sit down and talk to you.
> 
> Fwiw, the deer will gross typical in the high 190's low 200's and probably net typical high 180's low 190's.


If I was you, as others have said, I'd contact the local DNR and let them know of the situation. I'd tell them that you are a sole lease holder and that an ex lessee knew you hunted there with a lease, approached the farmer, and shot a B&C class buck off the land. He basically poached it and did so because it was so huge. I think you'd be better off being proactive, at least try and talk to a local Game Warden to explain your situation. Maybe even ask the Game Warden for some advice.


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## Midwestvest (Feb 3, 2012)

WVohioFAN said:


> Thank you. That's all we wanted.


lol...I could tell. 

I have really appreciated the myriad of perspectives this forum has offered me over the last 12 hours or so. Besides a few sour apples, this is why I am a member here.


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## NYSBowman (Aug 21, 2012)

Midwestvest,
I'm hoping that the "face-to-face" is only to gauge how much you're going to sue(press charges) for......rather than IF you are going to pursue legal action.

IMO, you should consult an attorney BEFORE you meet with the parties involved....you'll hate yourself if you find out thaf meeting them could somehow hurt your chances of 
Legal recourse against any of them.


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## robampton (Nov 24, 2004)

Midwestvest said:


> lol...I could tell.
> 
> I have really appreciated the myriad of perspectives this forum has offered me over the last 12 hours or so. Besides a few sour apples, this is why I am a member here.


Now I am curious, what is the purpose of meeting with the father?


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## WVohioFAN (Jun 5, 2011)

Midwestvest said:


> lol...I could tell.
> 
> I have really appreciated the myriad of perspectives this forum has offered me over the last 12 hours or so. Besides a few sour apples, this is why I am a member here.


I'm sorry if I come across as one of those apples. I know I seem to have a rigid stance but every fiber of my being tells me you're getting taken advantage of when you aren't there. I was explaining your situation to my hunting partner and told him that it bothered me that I was more upset than YOU were. lol 

I hope it works out for you.


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## btguy (Oct 2, 2013)

Good luck, whatever happens.


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## Midwestvest (Feb 3, 2012)

WVohioFAN said:


> I'm sorry if I come across as one of those apples. I know I seem to have a rigid stance but every fiber of my being tells me you're getting taken advantage of when you aren't there. I was explaining your situation to my hunting partner and told him that it bothered me that I was more upset than YOU were. lol
> 
> I hope it works out for you.


Listen, I am furious, skeptical, and feel like someone kicked me in the groin. I am pissed. But there are so many factors in this situation that are hard to pin down. I will be speaking to a game warden tomorrow about the situation, but I just don't think I can make a wise decision unless I talk to these men. 

I have known the landowner to be a man of integrity and that carries a lot of weight with me. I am pissed that he did this, but I and you and everyone in this thread have had a lapse of judgement before. And I really just don't know the dad's story. Sure, I am getting scumbag vibe, but if that is the case then the virtuous man will ultimately come out on top. And I just don't know how to handle the kid factor in this equation. From what the landowner has told me, the kid is the one who killed it without a doubt. Chances are he is an innocent victim, but how can I have a true read on that until I look his father in the eyes?


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## readonly (Nov 20, 2008)

Midwestvest said:


> Listen, I am furious, skeptical, and feel like someone kicked me in the groin. I am pissed. But there are so many factors in this situation that are hard to pin down. I will be speaking to a game warden tomorrow about the situation, but I just don't think I can make a wise decision unless I talk to these men.
> 
> I have known the landowner to be a man of integrity and that carries a lot of weight with me. I am pissed that he did this, but I and you and everyone in this thread have had a lapse of judgement before. And I really just don't know the dad's story. Sure, I am getting scumbag vibe, but if that is the case then the virtuous man will ultimately come out on top. And I just don't know how to handle the kid factor in this equation. From what the landowner has told me, the kid is the one who killed it without a doubt. Chances are he is an innocent victim, but how can I have a true read on that until I look his father in the eyes?


Integrity is something you either have or you don't. How many lapses of integrity can you have and still be a man of integrity? Did the landowner already intend to tell you that he was going around your lease when he gave the permission? Or is just because he felt guilty _after_ the big boy was killed? Really, the solution here is between you and the landowner. The father doesn't have a stake in it. There may be a lot of factors at play, but I'd say he owes you restitution for all the money and sweat equity invested in the place for the year. I would not want to continue with somebody I can't trust. If he's really honest, he will make a very reasonable offer on restitution without you having to ask for it. My first question to the landowner would be "how do you plan to make this right?"


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## OhioDeer5 (Mar 11, 2012)

Midwestvest said:


> Listen, I am furious, skeptical, and feel like someone kicked me in the groin. I am pissed. But there are so many factors in this situation that are hard to pin down. I will be speaking to a game warden tomorrow about the situation, but I just don't think I can make a wise decision unless I talk to these men.
> 
> I have known the landowner to be a man of integrity and that carries a lot of weight with me. I am pissed that he did this, but I and you and everyone in this thread have had a lapse of judgement before. And I really just don't know the dad's story. Sure, I am getting scumbag vibe, but if that is the case then the virtuous man will ultimately come out on top. And I just don't know how to handle the kid factor in this equation. From what the landowner has told me, the kid is the one who killed it without a doubt. Chances are he is an innocent victim, but how can I have a true read on that until I look his father in the eyes?


Since it was leased is it really the land owners fault? Yes he gave permission but technically it wasnt his permission to give. The father knew it was leased and went ahead and hunted it without asking permission from you. I would keep a good standing relationship with the landowner to ensure it doesn't happen again and you keep the land you have spent so much time and money invested in. In all seriousness deer keep making deer and there will be more. I understand you have waited to harvest this animal but what is done is done and the only thing left is to take legal actions against the person or persons who harvested the animal. It doesn't matter if you're 12 or 112 everyone has to obey the same laws. 

Sent from my HTC ONE


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## adam_p (Sep 16, 2009)

I'd find a new place. Get your money back however possible even if it means going to court. That old man is going to die soon and you might lose your place anyway. Might as well start over somewhere where you at least don't have proof that the landowner is willing to screw you.


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## chaded (Jan 15, 2011)

OhioDeer5 said:


> Since it was leased is it really the land owners fault? Yes he gave permission but technically it wasnt his permission to give. The father knew it was leased and went ahead and hunted it without asking permission from you. I would keep a good standing relationship with the landowner to ensure it doesn't happen again and you keep the land you have spent so much time and money invested in. In all seriousness deer keep making deer and there will be more. I understand you have waited to harvest this animal but what is done is done and the only thing left is to take legal actions against the person or persons who harvested the animal. It doesn't matter if you're 12 or 112 everyone has to obey the same laws.
> 
> Sent from my HTC ONE



Now why in the world would it not be the landowners fault? The landowner still owns the land regardless of the lease agreement. He can chose to just violate the lease agreement and give someone else permission to hunt. There is consequences to that action but he still owns the land. If he had said no like he should have this mess wouldn't be going on unless they then just disregarded what the landowner said and THEN it would be on them totally. I think they do have some responsibility here (the father) but the landowner is at fault big time.


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## hunterp223 (Sep 25, 2011)

jrmsoccer32 said:


> Be the bigger person it's just a deer. You made some kid the happiest hunter alive. Maybe ask for a monetary reimbursement but don't blow it out of proportion. That's awful it sucks but there's nothing you can do now except be happy for the kid.


Exactly! maybe go congratulate the kid on a deer of a lifetime. tough pill to swallow but you'll be better for it! I would also ask for a reduced lease for next year.


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## BowTechForever (Jun 12, 2012)

With a score like low 200s typical I would sue press charges, have them fined for poaching


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## westen (Apr 26, 2011)

Have to wonder what the going price is for a 200" deer??? I know what I spent to go to Kansas for just a chance at one.


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## Skeptic (Dec 11, 2005)

hunterp223 said:


> Exactly! maybe go congratulate the kid on a deer of a lifetime. tough pill to swallow but you'll be better for it! I would also ask for a reduced lease for next year.


LOL. Really? A reduced lease so that it can happen all over again??? The primary deer(which may have been the sole factor in justifying the lease) was poached on the very property the OP had total legal control of all hunting rights. Continuing with that lease in the future would be asinine IMO. How far is a guy willing to bend over?


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## Bearlee (Dec 24, 2009)

Liv4Rut said:


> Heck at 89 years old I just hope I could remember I even had the farm leased out. I couldn't get upset with an 89 year old I dont think. He manned up to it, just have him will the farm to you. Problem solved.


haha winner winner chicken dinner

I would let him make the next step and ask him what we are going to do to move past this... let your actions depend on his response.


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## nicko (Feb 17, 2006)

Congratulate the kid on the deer of a lifetime???? Be the better man?????? What is wrong with some of you? The man got SCREWED and cheated. He pays a lot of money for a lease and has a contract that was blatantly not honored. The dad of that kid is a leach and the kid laughed when he was told the OP was very mad. And he's supposed to congratulate the kid???? For what? Hunting his lease without his permission and shooting the deer the OP has been chasing for a few years???? 

The OP would not be doing that kid any favors by being all smiles and congratulating him on the deer. If anything, that kid should see with his own eyes how pizzed the OP is, hear his dad get blasted, and realize that something very wrong happened here and that his dad is not teaching him to do things the right way. Otherwise, this kid will come away from the experience thinking it is OK to ignore the rules as long as a big buck is involved.

Be the better man???? No friggin way.


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## scrapewatcher (Apr 14, 2009)

sleeperls said:


> Doesnt sound like a guy i want to lease from.
> 
> You pay for sole rights. Get your money back.


u got that right and he'll do it again if the price is right.


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## mustangracer (Oct 3, 2013)

I'd like to say I'd be all tough on everyone involved but I can't honestly say that because its not in my nature. I'd try to get money back for this year and next year free in restitution for the breach of contract and have it written in my contract that I can bring whoever I want to hunt since I lease sole rights for hunting. After that I'd never lay a finger on the place except to kill deer for the remainder of my lease and instead use that travel time and expense to locate a new lease. I'd bring my buddies and kill every deer I could, big small, young, old and fill my freezer and donate a bunch to share the harvest. Then, I'd walk away at the end of the lease period to my newly found lease. I'd also post a review online (if there is such a place as that) for leasers about what happened. Situations like this make me thank God for what I have and have access to so I can hunt and not deal with drama except for running off trespassers.


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## BoHunter0210 (Oct 3, 2011)

A typical hunt on a ranch for that type of animal would easily be $10,000. Plus all the time and money spent on QDM on the property. ukey:


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## mwmich (Nov 6, 2009)

So the land owner is 89. How much longer where you going to lease from him? What are your plans when he was no longer the landowner or able to lease to you? You've put a lot of time and money into this piece of land. Where you hoping to purchase this land and would taking legal action or asking for money back damage your chances at purchasing this land?

Were you going to have to walk away from this land in the near future if you were not going to purchase the land? If that's the case then get recompensated now and move on to another lease.


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## hunterp223 (Sep 25, 2011)

What is wrong with me? I choose not to hold grudges. And why wouldn't you tell the kid good job? It's a kid that shot a great deer. He's friends with the guy everybody makes mistakes and stuff happens everybody wants grace extended to them but apparently some of you can't give it to others.


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## marrj1 (Oct 16, 2013)

150 class bucks go for around $2, 500 at ranch style hunting here in southwest MI.


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## spenn (Jun 15, 2008)

in...


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## rutmaster (Dec 12, 2007)

after hearing more of the story, i believe i would be much more inclined to take legal action as well, you leased this land by contract, if you breached the contract my bet is that the farmer would not hesitate to take action against you! i am just betting that there is more to this story still!!


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## hunterp223 (Sep 25, 2011)

First, I did not read all of the pages and all of your subsequent post after your initial post and I just read about the dad laughing and the tc checking etc. I'd probably still tell the kid good job and depending on the kids age let him know in front of his dad that the deer was basically stolen from you and his dad is ok with that. Being sue-happy won't bring that deer back, and this thread just goes to show what happens with people when deer hunting gets involved. Lots of bad things tend to happen almost like if friends or family go into business together generally doesn't work out too well. Op I would sit back write down what you know to be true surrounding the deer being killed etc and weigh it against the relationship you have with the landowner and decide where to proceed.


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## cb186 (Apr 10, 2012)

I would atleast talk to a lawyer and find out your legal options.


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## Bucks (Jul 27, 2005)

the most expensive legal move is one solely based on principle rather than pragmatism. there seem to be a ton of lawn chair lawyers here ready to spend the OP's money chasing something obscure from an 89 year old man who may not be around in the time for this to pass through the courts. at best, it would be a civil case going for full restitution of the lease fee and would be fought in the landowners backyard, not where the OP lives. At a minimum it would be $2K to $3K just to get a lawyer to look at it, $10K if goes to court, and there are zero guarantees of a win anytime it goes before a judge. the deer itself is mostly irrelevant since it was not personal property and there is no way to prove the OP would have shot it anyway. if the suit crosses state lines, forget it.

I think the OP has it right. Go take the temperature of the landowner and then weigh options.

to the OP... if the guy is 89, you will probably lose the land eventually anyway unless you know the heirs and have a relationship. if you don't feel you can come to terms, it may be time to move on anyway.


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## BigDeer (Aug 9, 2005)

hunterp223 said:


> Exactly! maybe go congratulate the kid on a deer of a lifetime. tough pill to swallow but you'll be better for it! I would also ask for a reduced lease for next year.


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## dx2 (Aug 25, 2007)

Bowhuntin' brother - based on your posts, and I've read them all here in this thread, you appear plenty wise and will know exactly how to handle the situation. I respect how you are going about this....look a man in the eye, face-to-face talk, before making assumptions, like many here want to do. Cheers and good luck. 



Midwestvest said:


> Listen, I am furious, skeptical, and feel like someone kicked me in the groin. I am pissed. But there are so many factors in this situation that are hard to pin down. I will be speaking to a game warden tomorrow about the situation, but I just don't think I can make a wise decision unless I talk to these men.
> 
> I have known the landowner to be a man of integrity and that carries a lot of weight with me. I am pissed that he did this, but I and you and everyone in this thread have had a lapse of judgement before. And I really just don't know the dad's story. Sure, I am getting scumbag vibe, but if that is the case then the virtuous man will ultimately come out on top. And I just don't know how to handle the kid factor in this equation. From what the landowner has told me, the kid is the one who killed it without a doubt. Chances are he is an innocent victim, but how can I have a true read on that until I look his father in the eyes?


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## Skeptic (Dec 11, 2005)

Bucks said:


> the most expensive legal move is one solely based on principle rather than pragmatism. there seem to be a ton of lawn chair lawyers here ready to spend the OP's money chasing something obscure from an 89 year old man who may not be around in the time for this to pass through the courts. at best, it would be a civil case going for full restitution of the lease fee and would be fought in the landowners backyard, not where the OP lives. At a minimum it would be $2K to $3K just to get a lawyer to look at it, $10K if goes to court, and there are zero guarantees of a win anytime it goes before a judge. the deer itself is mostly irrelevant since it was not personal property and there is no way to prove the OP would have shot it anyway. if the suit crosses state lines, forget it.
> 
> I think the OP has it right. Go take the temperature of the landowner and then weigh options.
> 
> to the OP... if the guy is 89, you will probably lose the land eventually anyway unless you know the heirs and have a relationship. if you don't feel you can come to terms, it may be time to move on anyway.


Not sure where you get your figures for attorney fees but around here, to simply file a suit if he did get a lawyer would be about 1/3rd of that. In small claims a lawyer would not be needed and costs very low!


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## not on the rug (Oct 31, 2011)

Toonces said:


> That would normally be my reaction too, but the more I think about this the more it annoys me. This is how I view it:
> 
> 1) Father knew about the exclusive high priced lease
> 2) Father knew the deer was on the restricted property (how he knew suggests possible tresspassing or prior hunting on restricted property)
> ...


yeah...this is how I see it too. and also, i''m not and never was getting the warm and fuzzy feeling about the 11 year old shooting the deer anyway. i'm actually sick and tired of turning on the tv and seeing some little brat shoot a monster buck on a canned hunt. where is the hard work? where is the scouting? where is the knowledge passed from father to son? it's actually worse that the kid killed the deer. at least if the father shot it, it would just be some scumbag poaching a deer. now it's a 11 year old kid learning that he doesn't have to work hard for anything and he will be rewarded for breaking the law and lying to people. I hope the deer gets confiscated and put on display somewhere


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## BowHuntnRedneck (Oct 5, 2006)

I think the OP is fishing....... And he got a hell of a lot of bites!!!

I'm calling BS!!


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## Clifford (Aug 14, 2003)

Wow! Just found this one, and it sure brings back some bad memories of my time in Illinois... I have to agree that this whole thing sounds very fishy, and that I would be expecting compensation, and also anticipating that this relationship and lease is over with. In my opinion, the father manipulated the situation, but he cannot in any way be held accountable, because the landowner gave him permission to hunt. The landowner, without a doubt, broke the lease. But, dealing with it through the legal system may be a real mess, and I suspect getting a refund will be too.

Now to add a little anecdotal information... I was involved in leasing multiple properties in Illinois, in a partnership with a local farmer, and many of the farmers we leased from were friends of his. He couldn't bring himself to say no to any of his neighbors when they asked if they could bring a kid on the lands we leased, during the youth seasons, and we battled over it every year. I conceded as long as they just shot does, because it kept the peace, although I didn't like it. And, the farmers really wanted all the deer shot, so it made sense to them to let more hunters in, in spite of the fact that they had accepted my money for exclusive hunting rights.
It was a very common practice for them to call up and ask if we minded if they let someone gun hunt, since we were basically done with bowhunting, and you might as well knock your head against the wall trying to get them to understand that you wanted to carry over deer to the next season. They would quickly remind you that they made a lot more money farming than they did leasing hunting rights, and that those damn deer were, after all, just corn eaters!

The final, and I do mean final, straw came when one of the land owners decided that he would allow a group of guys to hunt the first week of November on one of our best places, because they offered a few thousand "for just one week". Reluctantly, I countered by offering to pay that much more for the lease, figuring that would settle it. However, he admitted that he would still take their money no matter how much we paid, because it was just more for him, and I knew the group of guys, and that they were not going to back off... By the way, there was never anything more than a handshake agreement on any of these places, because the landowners would not consider signing anything.

My conclusion, after dealing with this for too many years, was that the farmers were not the most reliable bunch, that they were greedy, and that I was better off not dealing with them any more.
So, I wouldn't expect any compensation from the landowner, and would also advise that you start looking for another place, and some way to insure that you are dealing with a landowner that will honor your agreement. Good Luck.... And, thanks for presenting an opportunity for me to vent... I needed it!


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## Bucks (Jul 27, 2005)

Skeptic said:


> Not sure where you get your figures for attorney fees but around here, to simply file a suit if he did get a lawyer would be about 1/3rd of that. In small claims a lawyer would not be needed and costs very low!


then I will trade you legal bills. it is never cheap and the only one who wins are the lawyers who get paid regardless of win/loss. if across state lines, it could get bumped to a federal court due to diversity unless the lease agreement specifically defines jurisdiction. secondly, it sounds like the money he spent goes above the small claims threshold. third, if travel is involved and it sounds like it is, the lawyer will bill for every second of travel, waiting around, court time, etc.

every time I hear people immediately scrambling to sue or take someone to court, it is apparent they have never done it. it is very exhausting mentally and monetarily and something to be avoided. it reminds me of standing in a line at walmart overhearing the inane conversations.


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## Squirrel (Aug 6, 2008)

readonly said:


> Did the landowner already intend to tell you that he was going around your lease when he gave the permission? Or is just because he felt guilty _after_ the big boy was killed?


I mentioned that early on in the thread. Midwestvest (MWV) needs to find out how many times the landowner has let guys hunt in the past. Sounds to me like this wasn't just a one time thing, but this is the first time a trophy animal was taken so he had to tell MWV.

No matter how you look at it, it's a crappy situation all around. I am very curious to read what happens after MWV talks to both the landowner and the father face to face.


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## Skeptic (Dec 11, 2005)

Bucks said:


> then I will trade you legal bills. it is never cheap and the only one who wins are the lawyers who get paid regardless of win/loss. if across state lines, it could get bumped to a federal court due to diversity unless the lease agreement specifically defines jurisdiction. secondly, it sounds like the money he spent goes above the small claims threshold. third, if travel is involved and it sounds like it is, the lawyer will bill for every second of travel, waiting around, court time, etc.
> 
> every time I hear people immediately scrambling to sue or take someone to court, it is apparent they have never done it. it is very exhausting mentally and monetarily and something to be avoided. it reminds me of standing in a line at walmart overhearing the inane conversations.


No doubt you have to be smart about it. Obviously the best case scenario is to settle before it gets to court. Filing is not expensive though, especially compared to the amount I'm assuming the OP paid the past few years for his lease.


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## Skeptic (Dec 11, 2005)

Ill also add, many attorneys offer free consultations. I usually do that over the phone. Then you'll at least have an idea where you stand.


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## nelliott (Feb 22, 2008)

15 pages and still no pics of this deer.....SPAM!


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## goathollow (Jun 18, 2008)

readonly said:


> Integrity is something you either have or you don't. How many lapses of integrity can you have and still be a man of integrity?


It appears in the heat of the moment you are confusing the lack of integrity with a lapse in judgment. Those two things are worlds apart.


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## goathollow (Jun 18, 2008)

dx2 said:


> Bowhuntin' brother - based on your posts, and I've read them all here in this thread, you appear plenty wise and will know exactly how to handle the situation. I respect how you are going about this....look a man in the eye, face-to-face talk, before making assumptions, like many here want to do. Cheers and good luck.


x10!


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## Toonces (Dec 16, 2008)

hunterp223 said:


> What is wrong with me? I choose not to hold grudges. And why wouldn't you tell the kid good job? It's a kid that shot a great deer. He's friends with the guy everybody makes mistakes and stuff happens everybody wants grace extended to them but apparently some of you can't give it to others.


The word "mistake" is being thrown around here a lot. There was no "mistake" here by any party. The landowner knew he was breaching the contract and chose to do so. The father knew he intentionally induced that breach and benefited from it. Everybody knew exactly what they were doing and make a conscious choice to do it.


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## goathollow (Jun 18, 2008)

Bucks said:


> then I will trade you legal bills. it is never cheap and the only one who wins are the lawyers who get paid regardless of win/loss. if across state lines, it could get bumped to a federal court due to diversity unless the lease agreement specifically defines jurisdiction. secondly, it sounds like the money he spent goes above the small claims threshold. third, if travel is involved and it sounds like it is, the lawyer will bill for every second of travel, waiting around, court time, etc.
> 
> every time I hear people immediately scrambling to sue or take someone to court, it is apparent they have never done it. it is very exhausting mentally and monetarily and something to be avoided. it reminds me of standing in a line at walmart overhearing the inane conversations.


X10 again! Not a lawyer but I'm not even sure a breach of contract would go to small claims court. A lawyer from a decent law firm will cost $350-$400/hr. Do the math. Just threatening a lawsuit and the subsequent negotiations could cost the OP $3-$5k. A summary judgment or bench trial would cost $30-$40k. If this went to a jury trial...in the landowners hometown there's a reasonable chance the OP would lose. And, most likely the judge would send it to mediation anyway, in which case the mediator would have to be paid and the OP would very likely not get all what he's asking for. 

Let cooler heads prevail, there is always time to sue later if the face-to-face suggests that is the best course of action.


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## Missouri Hunter (Oct 6, 2006)

Bucks said:


> then I will trade you legal bills. it is never cheap and the only one who wins are the lawyers who get paid regardless of win/loss. if across state lines, it could get bumped to a federal court due to diversity unless the lease agreement specifically defines jurisdiction. secondly, it sounds like the money he spent goes above the small claims threshold. third, if travel is involved and it sounds like it is, the lawyer will bill for every second of travel, waiting around, court time, etc.
> 
> every time I hear people immediately scrambling to sue or take someone to court, it is apparent they have never done it. it is very exhausting mentally and monetarily and something to be avoided. it reminds me of standing in a line at walmart overhearing the inane conversations.


OP - Sorry for your situation, and only you have to live with the decision you make. Look these men in the eye and follow your gut. In my opinion - the quoted post is the best advice so far. It's likely not worth the money, time, and headache to sue. If they man is independently wealthy and could afford to write you a check for $50k and not bat an eye, maybe. He is 89, not moving, won't be long for this world. He is judgement proof. Don't cause yourself anymore stress than you have to over this. Life is too short. I'm not a pushover like people like to say you are if you don't go and burn their houses down, I am just a realist.


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## Toonces (Dec 16, 2008)

Missouri Hunter said:


> OP - Sorry for your situation, and only you have to live with the decision you make. Look these men in the eye and follow your gut. In my opinion - the quoted post is the best advice so far. It's likely not worth the money, time, and headache to sue. If they man is independently wealthy and could afford to write you a check for $50k and not bat an eye, maybe. He is 89, not moving, won't be long for this world. *He is judgement proof.* Don't cause yourself anymore stress than you have to over this. Life is too short. I'm not a pushover like people like to say you are if you don't go and burn their houses down, I am just a realist.


How is the old man judgement proof exactly? It sounds like he is sitting on a goldmine worth of land. Unless it is mortgaged to the hilt and he has no equity, he is certainly not judgement proof by an stretch.


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## stillern (Feb 1, 2005)

nelliott said:


> 15 pages and still no pics of this deer.....SPAM!


What is he spamming?


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## stillern (Feb 1, 2005)

Hmmm...a lein on a mid west property on a guy who is 86. He is judgement worthy. He had better pray he refunds...although maybe he feels judgement proof and is surrounded by fools who tell him that...might be the best couple grand you ever spent!


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## stillern (Feb 1, 2005)

Spamming???


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## Mike318 (Oct 7, 2011)




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## bwhnter4life (Jul 25, 2006)

Midwestvest,

Good luck on your quest for answers. On your meeting with farmer, father and son, please take someone with you that you trust/unbiased opinion to give you honest feedback who does not know the other parties. This will give you a different perspective if the farmer and/or father/son combo is pulling your chain. You are partial to the farmer so if he does slip something by you, you may miss it because your mind would choose not to believe it. 

Make sure you have specific questions and have a second party watch their demeanor and facial impressions...

Hope the game warden helps you out. But with that said, land owner didnt have right to give permission, so trespassing is in order, which deer would be not the kids. Sad the kid was caught up in the middle of a Fathers obsession for a deer. Sad to see what the deer hunting world is coming to in some cases.

I dont know you, nor any affiliation with dad or farmer but I will assist if you so choose, just PM me. An unbiased person may assist you in getting accurate assessment of answers. And help you move in a direction that you may have not considered. 

Sounds like Dad knows more about this property then he is leading you to belief....like he has never given up hunting the property....I would make sure I hide my vehicles next time Im down hunting to see what just happens to show up.


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## emfunk (Jun 10, 2008)

swilk said:


> From a principle point of view it would not matter if it was a 1.5yo 4 point or a Milo Hanson crushing typical ..... the man broke an agreement and now his word dont mean spit. 89 years is a long time to have lived and go out without even your word being good.
> 
> From an Archery talk point of view .... how big was the dang buck?


My thoughts exactly, wouldn't have matter if they killed a button buck or a doe, the money this man shelled out for an agreement to have exclusive hunting rights was broken.


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## nelliott (Feb 22, 2008)

mikepahl318 said:


> View attachment 1784876


This! Spam or not! This thread is useless until we see pics :wink:


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## E72 (Aug 5, 2009)

emfunk said:


> My thoughts exactly, wouldn't have matter if they killed a button buck or a doe, the money this man shelled out for an agreement to have exclusive hunting rights was broken.


Whether or not this really happened , it brings up some very good discussion . Leasing is not as big in my state as say Illinois or Kansas but it's here and I know this situation where friends of the landowner hunts while the ones who pay are away,, happens more than a lot of (non local) leasers realize. Just keep those trail cams rolling. Hahha


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## goathollow (Jun 18, 2008)

OP: Any chance the father is a bow hunter and could possibly be lurking here on AT? If so, you might want to kill this thread and see if the mods will delete it.


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## icculus (Sep 14, 2013)

lets see this monster buck!


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## AF_TT (Aug 24, 2008)

The only way the farmer would know the kid shot the deer for sure is if he was with him.

Anyways until there are pics I am going to imagine that you're the father or farmer and just trying to get out ahead of this.(*For fun and to pass the time!)*


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## sleeperls (Feb 19, 2009)

Did i miss something about the father? was my assumtion correct? Did the dad take the kid out and the dad shot the deer? 

When is this big showdown going to happen already? This thread needs some closer. 

Still in it for pics.


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## BigDeer (Aug 9, 2005)

This thread is worse than "Did I make a good shot" thread and wondering if the op will find the deer and post a pic.

post a darn pic!


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## bigbucks170 (Feb 2, 2006)

Invite the Game Warden to the meeting..thats what they get paid to do, they have more resources then you to find out the truth..


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## air leak (Nov 15, 2010)

I'm call BS on this. Pics of this "world class buck", or it didn't happen.


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## OHMonsters (Oct 23, 2006)

I think the OP is being very thoughtful through this whole situation before taking actions that he regrets. However, I think there is certainly an issue with the farmer breaking the contract, but from what I've read, I think I would be more upset w/ the POS Father who brought his son over to kill the deer. He knew it was leased land, he is probably local and certainly knew the deer was there. I think he took advantage of the farmer having known him from prior years leasing, but did he possibly pay the farmer for the weekend, the farmer thinking what are the odds they kill this thing. Then when it is killed and he see's first hand how damn big it is, realize wholly cow, I screwed up? Hate to see kids be thrown in the middle of bad adult decisions..


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## KSQ2 (Oct 10, 2007)

This happens ALL THE TIME, not the world class deer part, but all the other parts of this sad story. I would never own or lease ground that I could not personally keep an eye one myself.


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## Maxemus (May 20, 2013)

KSQ2 said:


> This happens ALL THE TIME, not the world class deer part, but all the other parts of this sad story. I would never own or lease ground that I could not personally keep an eye one myself.


Highly impractical to do unless you're a local.


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## sway415 (Jan 31, 2012)

marrj1 said:


> 150 class bucks go for around $2, 500 at ranch style hunting here in southwest MI.


Where is there "ranch style hunting" in Southwest MI???


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## marrj1 (Oct 16, 2013)

Place between Zeeland and Hudsonville. Guarantees 150+ class deer for 2500. Ill have to ask my employee the name of the place.


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## sway415 (Jan 31, 2012)

marrj1 said:


> Place between Zeeland and Hudsonville. Guarantees 150+ class deer for 2500. Ill have to ask my employee the name of the place.


Hmmmmmm... I lived in Holland and worked in Zeeland for several years and never heard of such a place. Interesting.


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## marrj1 (Oct 16, 2013)

Yea I live in Saugatuck and haven't heard of it til this year. I know there is an exotic animal dealer in Hudsonville whose son raises turkeys, pheasants, and white tails for hunting purposes. 360 acres high fenced. So that could be what my field manager is talking about


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## onebigdude (Dec 13, 2012)

I've read on here multiple times that this deer has been breeding the whole time he's been running the area and his genes have been passed on. Hopefully, the people on this site and the OP are the only ones smart enough to realize this. If the dad understands how genetics works, you can bet he will be back with or without permission to take some of the monster offspring of this buck. Hopefully everyone is getting worked up for nothing. If the farmer is as good of a guy as described, I would assume he will be the first to offer a full refund. People need to realize this isn't private property that the OP was given sole permission to hunt and some neighbors got permission for one weekend. The guy PAID for sole rights to the property. If I pay for a vacation and find out that someone slept in the hotel bed and cleared out the minibar before I got there, you better bet we will have problems. Does not matter one bit if the front desk clerk is Mother Teresa. Why should the OP be paying for a lease if others are hunting it for free?


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## BC Bowstrings (Feb 29, 2012)

Tough call. If there are world class deer walking around then you are not the only one that would pay for the lease I am guessing. The fact that he called you makes me think he is a pretty honest guy. If he wasn't his reaction would probably been more along the lines of "I can always find someone else to lease so deal with it".
All you can do is talk to the guy and figure it out but I wouldn't give up prime hunting land over 1 deer.


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## stillern (Feb 1, 2005)

BC Bowstrings said:


> Tough call. If there are world class deer walking around then you are not the only one that would pay for the lease I am guessing. The fact that he called you makes me think he is a pretty honest guy. If he wasn't his reaction would probably been more along the lines of "I can always find someone else to lease so deal with it".
> All you can do is talk to the guy and figure it out but I wouldn't give up prime hunting land over 1 deer.


The only reason he called you is because he knew you would find out. Damage control. Forget him.


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## Muzzy61 (Oct 22, 2007)

ackool1234 said:


> i would let it go. you already said the guy is a standup guy and just made a mistake. The kid got lucky and he will remember that for the rest of his life. Its not worth losing as lease like that for. The ground must be good to produce a deer like that to start off with, and i'd bet it won't be long before you get another deer of that class. I will say if it was just anyone that went and got permission we would have a problem but with it being a kid i would just let it go.


x2

I would be upset, but I'd let it go.The type of land and relationship you have with land ower is HARD to come by, even with money.
Besides no guarantees that you would have killed or even see that deer again.


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## stillern (Feb 1, 2005)

OHMonsters said:


> I think the OP is being very thoughtful through this whole situation before taking actions that he regrets. However, I think there is certainly an issue with the farmer breaking the contract, but from what I've read, I think I would be more upset w/ the POS Father who brought his son over to kill the deer. He knew it was leased land, he is probably local and certainly knew the deer was there. I think he took advantage of the farmer having known him from prior years leasing, but did he possibly pay the farmer for the weekend, the farmer thinking what are the odds they kill this thing. Then when it is killed and he see's first hand how damn big it is, realize wholly cow, I screwed up? Hate to see kids be thrown in the middle of bad adult decisions..


No doubt the father paid the farmer a little something for his trouble. There is nothing accidental about this. Call it base, reductionist, draconian...when it comes to cash deals, when you suspect the worst and most selfish you are usually correct. The farmer gave hunting permission that was not his to give. The father might as well have asked me for permission, it would have carried as much legal weight under the contract. It is that simple.


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## berdarien (May 29, 2013)

Gotta remember OP. World class deer aren't as rare as one would think. 180-200 range is more just time and some good genetics. Those genetics might be found in many many places but are never given the time and the nutrition to get there. You did it once you can for sure do it again.


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## NYSBowman (Aug 21, 2012)

Muzzy61 said:


> x2
> 
> I would be upset, but I'd let it go.The type of land and relationship you have with land ower is HARD to come by, even with money.
> Besides no guarantees that you would have killed or even see that deer again.


What relationship are you referring to? Oh....you mean the one where the two of them are "buddy-buddy" when he visits his lease, but when he's away the landowner goes behind his back and allows others to hunt his property?

I seriously wonder if the landowner not only only allows others to hunt there....but charges them some fee also.


There has been a breach of multi-thousand dollar lease.....who in their right mind.....advocates "letting it slide"? 

With that kind of reasoning....I guess the law shouldn't prosecute 95% of all monetary crimes cause they fall below the monetary value of the OP's lease.

I would bet that EVERY proponent of the "let it go" mentality......wouldn't let their even their cloest friends defraud them of a $100 bucks, let alone thousands.


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## Midwestvest (Feb 3, 2012)

Since I really won't have much to update on this thread for a few days (because I have made up my mind not to actively pursue anything until face to face conversations) and because SO MANY PEOPLE CARE ABOUT THIS SITUATION, I wonder if we could turn this into a broader conversation about leasing practices? 

For example, in my case, as many of you have inferred...I am not close enough to my lease to be there every week. How do you protect yourself in these types of situations?


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## brandon170 (Jul 5, 2010)

Could someone please pm me if the op ever put pictures on this thread. Thanks


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## berdarien (May 29, 2013)

The mobile cams that send pics to your phone. I know some of them have a box you put the box in a safe place even burying it. Then all cams will send to that box and that box will send you pics to your phone or email..That would be my suggestion. Especially when you are paying a good amount for the lease protection is the key there.


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## blazinsoles (Jul 23, 2013)

partial or full refund


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## dx2 (Aug 25, 2007)

Midwestvest - this guy sounds like he knows what he's talking about when it comes to protecting your investment....



BamaBoy said:


> I have been dealing with out of state hunting leases for more than 30 years. My first lease or two I felt a lot like many of those who have posted .... you leased the land, the landowner violated the lease, you have been harmed, you deserve some sort of compensation/restitution ... and come hell or high water you should get it. Maybe I have just been beat down by 30 years of experience but I feel differently now. Well, I don't necessarily feel differently but I have accepted that 90+% of the time that is not how it works out. I have accepted that, as an out of state lease holder, I really have no idea what happens on the property when I am not around. The landowner smiles when he takes your check and is very friendly when you are on the property. However, the bottom line is that the landowner deals with you only when you are around .... which is a relatively small percentage of the time. The landowner deals with local friends/acquaintances 365 days a year. These are people/families he has known for decades ... in some cases for generations. These are people/families he depends on for support of one form or another. I can't count the number of times that a particularly nice deer just disappeared from a property that I had leased and managed. The landowner was surprised that the deer disappeared and assurred me that no one else had hunted the property .... or he certainly had not given anyone else permission to hunt the property The first few times, I wrote it off to poachers, deer crossed onto neighbors property, etc. However, I finally began to install plot watcher cams high up in the trees on a few properties. The first of the plot watcher cams were crude time lapse security cams but several of the trail cam companies make them now. In a couple of situations, I asked close personal friends who had leases in the same area to quiety look in on the property when I was no around. Interesting what I found out. In some cases the property owner or other family members were hunting the property .... not a lot but enough to matter. In other situations, locals were hunting the property. Given the way they were accessing the property, the landowner undoubtedly knew they were there. Realistically you have a couple of choices. You can raise hell with the landowner ... in which case you likely will lose the lease. This was my approach for a few years. However, as I looked back on most of these situations I realized that I had lost a whole lot more than the landowner. The landowner quickly found someone else to take the lease ... which was more attractive due to the things I had improved on the property. Your other option ... and the one that I use now ... is to understand what goes on when you are not around, manage it aggressively and be thankful that you have a good place to hunt. By manage aggressively I mean .... treat the lease as a business, be cordial with the landowner but recognize he is not your best buddy, show up on the lease unannounced, try not to have a set pattern to your visits, don't talk about big deer with the landowner or any other locals, make sure the landowner knows you use trail cameras but do not share pics of big deer, make sure the landowner thinks/knows you use plot watcher cams that do not need to be installed at ground level ,etc. You don't need to be an ***** about any of this with the landowner. Have a reason as to why you show up unannounced, etc. Don't act as if you are trying to catch him up to something .... although that is what he will likely think. After 30 years, I have lucked onto a few exceptions to the rule .... but they are definitely a rare exception.


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## sway415 (Jan 31, 2012)

berdarien said:


> The mobile cams that send pics to your phone. I know some of them have a box you put the box in a safe place even burying it. Then all cams will send to that box and that box will send you pics to your phone or email..That would be my suggestion. Especially when you are paying a good amount for the lease protection is the key there.


x2... this is a great way to keep up on whats walking around on property you cant actively be on. I like the Covert ones. About $300 for the cam and then just buy a cheapo $20 prepaid phone. You can get a plan for unlimited pics for about $25/month and there is no contract. Spending about $1000 to put up 3 cams and be able to see whats going on in real time seems justifiable to me given your current circumstance.


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## sway415 (Jan 31, 2012)

Also, those cams are password protected so you can't even turn them on if you don't have the password. They also have a GPS feature if they are stolen it will send the GPS coordinates to your phone so you can locate them and bust the scum bag who took them.


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## bigbucks170 (Feb 2, 2006)

well prosecuting trespasser`s would be a good start..Poachers know where they are hunting and who would call or not..and yes trail cams as many as you can..news travails fast..make an example out
of the first trespasser and word will get around quick that you mean business. there is no sure fire way to keep people off if they want it that bad..make it not worth it to them..example if this kids deer
gets taken away..it would not be worth it to some one else to go through all this hard work and get away with it, only to have the deer taken away..hey lets go sneak onto so an so`s and kill a Big ol buck
na even if we did we probably loose the deer and all our hunting stuff...


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## Skeptic (Dec 11, 2005)

Midwestvest said:


> Since I really won't have much to update on this thread for a few days (because I have made up my mind not to actively pursue anything until face to face conversations) and because SO MANY PEOPLE CARE ABOUT THIS SITUATION, I wonder if we could turn this into a broader conversation about leasing practices?
> 
> For example, in my case, as many of you have inferred...I am not close enough to my lease to be there every week. How do you protect yourself in these types of situations?


I don't think you can. I mean really, what could you have done? Like 170 said though, make an example of them. Get the law involved, sue, do everything you can to make a LOT of noise about the situation. More people doing the same will lesson the chances of it happening again in the future.


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## DCStudent (Aug 25, 2009)

I agree with the other guys. It takes 3+ years for bucks to become really nice deer. If you still want to hunt there I would negotiate a reduced lease price for a few years. 

If you have no desire to hunt there anymore then get whatever money back you can depending on how the lease is worded.


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## Toonces (Dec 16, 2008)

Midwestvest said:


> Since I really won't have much to update on this thread for a few days (because I have made up my mind not to actively pursue anything until face to face conversations) and because SO MANY PEOPLE CARE ABOUT THIS SITUATION, I wonder if we could turn this into a broader conversation about leasing practices?
> 
> For example, in my case, as many of you have inferred...I am not close enough to my lease to be there every week. How do you protect yourself in these types of situations?


As mentioned by a couple of other folks, I think having a local guy you can trust on the lease with you would help. Of course if you can't trust the landowner, not sure how you can find a someone local who is trustworthy to watch the place either.


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## ba3darcher (Jan 13, 2005)

I would think if the land owner really felt bad about the situation he would be the person to initiate the conversation regarding the price for next year and you would not have to bring it up.


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## KSQ2 (Oct 10, 2007)

BamaBoy said:


> I have been dealing with out of state hunting leases for more than 30 years. My first lease or two I felt a lot like many of those who have posted .... you leased the land, the landowner violated the lease, you have been harmed, you deserve some sort of compensation/restitution ... and come hell or high water you should get it. Maybe I have just been beat down by 30 years of experience but I feel differently now. Well, I don't necessarily feel differently but I have accepted that 90+% of the time that is not how it works out. I have accepted that, as an out of state lease holder, I really have no idea what happens on the property when I am not around. The landowner smiles when he takes your check and is very friendly when you are on the property. However, the bottom line is that the landowner deals with you only when you are around .... which is a relatively small percentage of the time. The landowner deals with local friends/acquaintances 365 days a year. These are people/families he has known for decades ... in some cases for generations. These are people/families he depends on for support of one form or another. I can't count the number of times that a particularly nice deer just disappeared from a property that I had leased and managed. The landowner was surprised that the deer disappeared and assurred me that no one else had hunted the property .... or he certainly had not given anyone else permission to hunt the property The first few times, I wrote it off to poachers, deer crossed onto neighbors property, etc. However, I finally began to install plot watcher cams high up in the trees on a few properties. The first of the plot watcher cams were crude time lapse security cams but several of the trail cam companies make them now. In a couple of situations, I asked close personal friends who had leases in the same area to quiety look in on the property when I was no around. Interesting what I found out. In some cases the property owner or other family members were hunting the property .... not a lot but enough to matter. In other situations, locals were hunting the property. Given the way they were accessing the property, the landowner undoubtedly knew they were there. Realistically you have a couple of choices. You can raise hell with the landowner ... in which case you likely will lose the lease. This was my approach for a few years. However, as I looked back on most of these situations I realized that I had lost a whole lot more than the landowner. The landowner quickly found someone else to take the lease ... which was more attractive due to the things I had improved on the property. Your other option ... and the one that I use now ... is to understand what goes on when you are not around, manage it aggressively and be thankful that you have a good place to hunt. By manage aggressively I mean .... treat the lease as a business, be cordial with the landowner but recognize he is not your best buddy, show up on the lease unannounced, try not to have a set pattern to your visits, don't talk about big deer with the landowner or any other locals, make sure the landowner knows you use trail cameras but do not share pics of big deer, make sure the landowner thinks/knows you use plot watcher cams that do not need to be installed at ground level ,etc. You don't need to be an ***** about any of this with the landowner. Have a reason as to why you show up unannounced, etc. Don't act as if you are trying to catch him up to something .... although that is what he will likely think. After 30 years, I have lucked onto a few exceptions to the rule .... but they are definitely a rare exception.


Best advice yet on this thread.


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## KSQ2 (Oct 10, 2007)

Maxemus said:


> Highly impractical to do unless you're a local.


That's why it's such an iffy investment. Better be prepare for disappointment and/or lots of investigative work. The above post of bamaboy is excellent!


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## Baldona523 (Feb 12, 2010)

Midwestvest said:


> Since I really won't have much to update on this thread for a few days (because I have made up my mind not to actively pursue anything until face to face conversations) and because SO MANY PEOPLE CARE ABOUT THIS SITUATION, I wonder if we could turn this into a broader conversation about leasing practices?
> 
> For example, in my case, as many of you have inferred...I am not close enough to my lease to be there every week. How do you protect yourself in these types of situations?


1.) Get a local guy to join with you, even for cheap. Would be really really easy if say lease is $5000 and you have local guy just pay $1500 of it.

2.) Hunt with the same Guide Service every year. You can get a guided Midwest Whitetail hunt for $2000 or under/ week. So for $4000 you can hunt for 2 weeks. No idea why more guys don't do this instead of paying for a lease. You get to hunt multiple properties and have someone taking care of it.

3.) Don't give a rip. Deer get poached all the time, etc. I am not worried about the buck as much as the landowner letting the guy hunt for free when you are paying.


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## KSQ2 (Oct 10, 2007)

Baldona523 said:


> 1.) Get a local guy to join with you, even for cheap. Would be really really easy if say lease is $5000 and you have local guy just pay $1500 of it.
> 
> 2.) Hunt with the same Guide Service every year. You can get a guided Midwest Whitetail hunt for $2000 or under/ week. So for $4000 you can hunt for 2 weeks. No idea why more guys don't do this instead of paying for a lease. You get to hunt multiple properties and have someone taking care of it.


Point 1 is good if you can find the right guy, otherwise you're in the same boat again. "My buddy's kid really wanted to hunt and I figured, since I was paying, it would be alright."


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## Baldona523 (Feb 12, 2010)

KSQ2 said:


> Point 1 is good if you can find the right guy, otherwise you're in the same boat again. "My buddy's kid really wanted to hunt and I figured, since I was paying, it would be alright."


I agree, but at the same time there are a lot of good guys when money is not as much of an issue. The problem is not many guys can afford, well justify, a $5000 a year deer lease. But a ton of guys can afford $1000, most if not all. If anything, at least you keep the unknown away. I'd rather have a buddy hunt a place more than he should and watch the property, then have to deal with poachers. But like you said, theres always issues.

Simple fact is, even guys that live on the property they hunt have issues. There are Dirt bags and poachers no matter the situation.


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## Olydog (Sep 1, 2010)

goathollow said:


> Well this is a tough one. On one hand I can see how from a strict contractual sense you may be entitled to some restitution. But before pursuing that I would suggest you ask yourself a simple question that only you can answer. Will you really feel better if he coughs up part of the lease payment? Be honest with yourself, if the answer is no, then I would sit down with the landowner and simply tell him how disappointed you are that he faulted on the lease agreement and ask him to never let it happen again. Easing his pain/guilt may go a long way towards keeping that lease for a long, long time. Instead of killing a world class buck you just might create a world class friend. I'd take the latter over the former any day.
> 
> I would also ask him to have the young man and his father come there while you are present so you can see pictures of the buck and hear this kid's story. Hearing about it might actually ease the pain. I'll bet that young man's grin will be from ear to ear and his excitement will be off the chart. I had something similar happen to me last year. I had a couple buddies down to my cabin to deer hunt. When they arrived they asked if there were any deer around they should not shoot. Half kidding I mentioned the big 12 point I had on a couple of trail cams that I would like to save for myself. Low and behold that 12 point walked right under the one of their stands and all he did was take pictures of him from 10 yds. I felt like a total butt head when he showed me the pics. He was just fine with it but I was guilt ridden for the next month until I got an email from him with a picture attached of a monster 10 pt he took on his dad's farm. Needless to say he was very excited. The 10 pt probably scored higher than the 12. We have a one buck rule in Indiana so had he shot "my" 12 pt he couldn't have shot the 10pt. I was totally relieved. This is why I'm thinking you might also feel some relief if you talk to the boy who shot "your" deer and can feel his excitement. And by the way, "my" 12 pt has not been seen since that day! I don't know if he went somewhere and got killed, died from old age, died in a fight, etc. I almost think he was put there to teach me a lesson in humility and selflessness.



That may be the best post I have seen on AT. I agree but I have been pondering on this for a bit and there would be one situation that might make me think differently. I do not know your seasons there and if the deer stay in certain patterns from year to year. But IF the landowner knows the man and his kid AND the season is a youth hunt only AND that deer was known to use a particular pattern at that time of the year and the kid was set on that pattern for a chance to specifically kill that deer then I would be burnt. I know you have no way of knowing this for sure but if you think in your heart that may have happened I would finish the season and terminate the lease. Otherwise you will always have bad feelings in your heart on that farm and you may never fully appreciate hunting there ever again. If you believe that the landowner made a 1 time lapse in judgement then I would chalk it up to being an unfortunate incident and continue as normal without asking for reimbursement of any kind and think what your hard work and sacrifice did for that kid.


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## alancac98 (Jan 22, 2012)

Midwestvest said:


> Since I really won't have much to update on this thread for a few days (because I have made up my mind not to actively pursue anything until face to face conversations) and because SO MANY PEOPLE CARE ABOUT THIS SITUATION, I wonder if we could turn this into a broader conversation about leasing practices?
> 
> For example, in my case, as many of you have inferred...I am not close enough to my lease to be there every week. How do you protect yourself in these types of situations?


It was already mentioned here - one of the best ways to keep an eye on a place is to have a local go in on it with you. They are there and can be more visible to everyone. However, there are pitfalls to this as well, as they could be the one taking advantage of you. Leasing a good distance from ones home turf is hard to do, particularly now that this has happened to you. Other guys have also hit on the idea of placing some "email" cameras throughout the area, but you would have to be willing to be the prick in finding these guys and prosecuting them. BTW, this is also hard because locals normally stick together and won't tell you who is in your photos. 

On a more personal note, I feel for you. You have put hard work in to growing that mature whitetail over the course of many years and are now in a rather tight undesirable predicament. You are doing the right thing exercising patients and waiting for your face to face with the landowner. Be sure that the landowner knows that "**** may hit the fan" and he has a lot of explaining to do, particularly if he is a stand up guy. Don't be afraid to a little pushy with certain questions, particularly, "Have you ever let anyone else on this property since I began leasing it?" He has to know this question is coming and should not be pissed off for you asking it, otherwise he is not that stand-up guy you thought he was. If you do decide to continue leasing the property from him, let him know that there will be an increase of game cameras throughout the property, many of which will email you the pics immediately. Also, one question - "Do you post his property?" If not, I would make damn sure this is in your lease agreement and I would post posters down his driveway and any road frontage. Hell, I might even ask, under the situation, that he display on his porch a poster of my making, letting everyone know that if they would like permission to hunt, that they need to call you!!!

As many have stated here, only you can make the best decision for you! Good luck!


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## crawdad (Jul 21, 2008)

Wow, are there any attorneys from that state (Iowa?) on here that know whether the trespassing father is actually guilty of anything, since he got permission from the landowner?

Does it hinge on whether he knows that the property is leased to another? That would be useful info.

OP, how many cameras do you have out? Have you ever seen any strangers on them? Do you have any covering the access points?


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## bwhnter4life (Jul 25, 2006)

Find a local you can trust. I do this for my neighbor all the time. The trade off is.......I watch the place, help hang stands, he calls and says when he wants to hunt, he hunts it the days he wants, I stay out of the area a week prior to him arriving and all is well between us. I assist in trail cam monitoring when he cant get down etc....He just has to ask for the assistance from a local gentleman, try a guy who lives in the area. Im lucky because my house borders the property. For the opportunity to hunt if he tells me he wants a certain buck, I would honor that due to I know a monster buck isn't going to change who I am for a lifetime, maybe a little bit of fame for a season or two but after that, most fall off the face of the earth to be never heard of again. I believe there are many trust worthy individuals out there today, problem is we don't spend enough time with a person face to face to figure this out.

If two people have the same ambitions Im sure they both would protect the area as if it were their own.

As for Iowa, if you lease your ground away you have no said rights to say who comes and goes....so technically it is trespassing if the lease so chooses to charge said individual. All how the contract is wrote. Land next to me is....land owner not even allowed on own ground except to harvest crops or retrieve cattle that have got out.


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## NYSBowman (Aug 21, 2012)

I honestly don't see the point of even having a lease. Isn't it cheaper just to buy property in your own area....and manage it to produce big deer?

Huge deer can be produced in EVERY state.


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## BUFFALOCTYBUCKS (Feb 20, 2013)

PSUBowhunter said:


> I would be more pissed at myself for being upset about a kid shooting a big buck.
> 
> We all complain about the future of our youth, yet we continue to be so greedy with something that was once a past time.


I find this hard to believe, if it was your money we were talking about! So i guess I will stop paying for my son to hunt and tell him he has any right to any buck he wants in the woods!


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## HuntinFreak (Jan 26, 2005)

Maybe just let it go and try and get some reassurance from the LO that this won't happen again. Forgive me if this was already suggested in the previous 17 pages.


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## BUFFALOCTYBUCKS (Feb 20, 2013)

Midwestvest said:


> Since I really won't have much to update on this thread for a few days (because I have made up my mind not to actively pursue anything until face to face conversations) and because SO MANY PEOPLE CARE ABOUT THIS SITUATION, I wonder if we could turn this into a broader conversation about leasing practices?
> 
> For example, in my case, as many of you have inferred...I am not close enough to my lease to be there every week. How do you protect yourself in these types of situations?


I would buy the Spy Point cameras that that sore a second copy of the pics in a black box that can be hidden up to 250' away. And let everyone know that the property is under surveillance. As for the farmer, I wouldn't consider him a friend unless he offered to compensate you.


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## BUFFALOCTYBUCKS (Feb 20, 2013)

Joe W. said:


> LOL.....not really.....just get tired of people shouting about being Christian and not realizing that by the mere act of shouting it they are acting very un-Christian.....the shoeless carpenter was a very humble dude.


You sure like to exaggerate, I didn't hear anyone shouting, or battling their way thru life, just an adult trying to make sure the terms of his contract were respected. I find it hard to believe that if you had a contract with a builder for say and he wasn't building the house as the contract stated you wouldn't stick up for yourself.


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## Flatwoodshunter (Feb 3, 2013)

The OP has many options, one being since the landowner did not have the right to give permission to hunt on the leased property, this Deer was killed illegal. Is it not a Poached Deer?


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## readonly (Nov 20, 2008)

goathollow said:


> It appears in the heat of the moment you are confusing the lack of integrity with a lapse in judgment. Those two things are worlds apart.


So if in the heat of the moment I cheat on my wife, then feel bad about.....I'm good right? I am still a man of honor and integrity because I felt bad, fessed up, no matter how lousy I am in the moment when it really counts? Like that?


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## BUFFALOCTYBUCKS (Feb 20, 2013)

Square_Dancer said:


> Bingo.
> 
> To put it in perspective, imagine you have rented a house. It's Christmas time. The tree is up with presents all underneath it.
> While you're off having Christmas dinner at your in-laws' place, the landlord comes over to your house with a young Chinese boy.
> ...


Couldn't have said it any better!!


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## phipdeer (Aug 5, 2008)

No way to fix this. The deer of your dreams is gone. It's not right but at least you know this and won't be wasting your whole season hunting for something that isn't there. 
If you don't own it and live on it you can't be sure it won't happen again.


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## BUFFALOCTYBUCKS (Feb 20, 2013)

Baldona523 said:


> If I was you, as others have said, I'd contact the local DNR and let them know of the situation. I'd tell them that you are a sole lease holder and that an ex lessee knew you hunted there with a lease, approached the farmer, and shot a B&C class buck off the land. He basically poached it and did so because it was so huge. I think you'd be better off being proactive, at least try and talk to a local Game Warden to explain your situation. Maybe even ask the Game Warden for some advice.


 X2 I would at least ask the DNR if this constitutes poaching.


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## Marksman56 (Aug 27, 2013)

I would ask him if he would call the man and his son and have them meet you at your lease next year for a hunt. Tell them that you had planned to hunt the buck that he shot , however you hope that the young lad appreciates this opportunity and furthermore just to show that there are no hard feeling, you would like to have them back to hunt with you. Additionally I would ask the landowner what he thinks he owes you for his mistake. You have no hard feelings however it was a huge disappointment for you.


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## onebigdude (Dec 13, 2012)

Marksman56 said:


> I would ask him if he would call the man and his son and have them meet you at your lease next year for a hunt. Tell them that you had planned to hunt the buck that he shot , however you hope that the young lad appreciates this opportunity and furthermore just to show that there are no hard feeling, you would like to have them back to hunt with you. Additionally I would ask the landowner what he thinks he owes you for his mistake. You have no hard feelings however it was a huge disappointment for you.


Now it's getting out of hand. Have the guy and his son come hunt the lease you are paying for, the year after they took the buck you have been grooming? You sir are crazy. This is as crazy as the guy making the thread about inviting trespassers over for bbq and beers. I absolutely don't think the kid is at fault and deserves to be thrown under the bus, but no reason to give the kid and his dad anything more than they already got. Let's get real here.


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## rfrench247 (Jul 24, 2012)

Some of the things I'm reading here are utterly insane... Can we please just see a picture of this "world-class buck"?


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## sawtoothscream (Apr 19, 2008)

Marksman56 said:


> I would ask him if he would call the man and his son and have them meet you at your lease next year for a hunt. Tell them that you had planned to hunt the buck that he shot , however you hope that the young lad appreciates this opportunity and furthermore just to show that there are no hard feeling, you would like to have them back to hunt with you. Additionally I would ask the landowner what he thinks he owes you for his mistake. You have no hard feelings however it was a huge disappointment for you.


You have to be joking? Why reward the scum bag for stealing from the OP? If anything he should be getting cash from the father for using the land he is paying for. Reward the trespasser, forgive the land owner that broke the contract and screwed the op. Makes sense as long as the d bag had a kid with him.


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## WVohioFAN (Jun 5, 2011)

Marksman56 said:


> I would ask him if he would call the man and his son and have them meet you at your lease next year for a hunt. Tell them that you had planned to hunt the buck that he shot , however you hope that the young lad appreciates this opportunity and furthermore just to show that there are no hard feeling, you would like to have them back to hunt with you. Additionally I would ask the landowner what he thinks he owes you for his mistake. You have no hard feelings however it was a huge disappointment for you.


Replies like this one leave me shaking my head.(in disbelief)


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## Midwestvest (Feb 3, 2012)

WVohioFAN said:


> Replies like this one leave me shaking my head.(in disbelief)


Yeah of all the things that might happen, this is not one of them.


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## WVohioFAN (Jun 5, 2011)

Midwestvest said:


> Yeah of all the things that might happen, this is not one of them.


Here I am prepared to accompany you to said meeting and go to the mattresses......and THIS guy wants you to invite the poacher and his offspring back to have another go at jamming it up your tailpipe!

I need a Xanax.


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## blazinsoles (Jul 23, 2013)

Marksman56 said:


> I would ask him if he would call the man and his son and have them meet you at your lease next year for a hunt. Tell them that you had planned to hunt the buck that he shot , however you hope that the young lad appreciates this opportunity and furthermore just to show that there are no hard feeling, you would like to have them back to hunt with you. Additionally I would ask the landowner what he thinks he owes you for his mistake. You have no hard feelings however it was a huge disappointment for you.


Sounds like this guy is either the boy that killed the buck or the boys father.. Terrible idea but well played


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## frankVA (Oct 31, 2005)

NYSBowman said:


> I honestly don't see the point of even having a lease. Isn't it cheaper just to buy property in your own area....and manage it to produce big deer?
> 
> Huge deer can be produced in EVERY state.


Cheaper to buy? Have you priced land lately? I am in Virginia. Rural area. Farm country. There is 258 acres for sale near me. The asking price is $1,000,000. Right now I am in a club that is leasing 300 acres about 15 miles from the property for sale. For 5 of us it is $600/year. I looked at 40 acres that bordered National Forest. They wanted $90,000 for it. Only way I could have done that was to sell my house and move to the 40 acres. Which we would have considered had it been in the same school district. I would love to be able to afford to buy a small parcel of land, but I don't see it happening unless I hit the lottery.


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## nicko (Feb 17, 2006)

I'd like to know how midwestvest is supposed to get reassurance from the landowner that this will never happen again.

1 - It happened once. Does anybody truly believe this is the only time it ever happened?
2 - The landowner is 89. He will not be around forever and trying to work out a long term lease will only work for as long as he is alive. One he's gone, the hunter leasing the property is most likely gone too. 

I still can't believe some of you say to congratulate the kid or shake his hand. That's like having some dude steal $1 million in cash from you and then you congratulating him on his new found wealth.

I'd would be so pizzed if I was midwestvest that I wouldn't be able to see straight.


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## Joe W. (Feb 6, 2006)

BUFFALOCTYBUCKS said:


> You sure like to exaggerate, I didn't hear anyone shouting, or battling their way thru life, just an adult trying to make sure the terms of his contract were respected. I find it hard to believe that if you had a contract with a builder for say and he wasn't building the house as the contract stated you wouldn't stick up for yourself.


Sorry ...that argument is long over but.....the landowner is 89 years old....and it is a deer and not a house. I am in the construction business in NYC....I know all about contractual agreements and ensuring they are enforced. This is very different.


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## NYSBowman (Aug 21, 2012)

frankVA said:


> Cheaper to buy? Have you priced land lately? I am in Virginia. Rural area. Farm country. There is 258 acres for sale near me. The asking price is $1,000,000. Right now I am in a club that is leasing 300 acres about 15 miles from the property for sale. For 5 of us it is $600/year. I looked at 40 acres that bordered National Forest. They wanted $90,000 for it. Only way I could have done that was to sell my house and move to the 40 acres. Which we would have considered had it been in the same school district. I would love to be able to afford to buy a small parcel of land, but I don't see it happening unless I hit the lottery.



I guess it all depends on WHERE you buy. If someone is trying to buy a large parcel of land that is in prime farm/hunting country....that is already chock full of deer, I would guess that the land would be extremely expensive.

I would also imagine.....that buying a large tract of land off the beaten path and turning it into a deer magnet(food plots etc)would be MUCH less expensive.


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## SilentElk (Oct 6, 2004)

Midwestvest, I leave town for a couple days and a 17 page thread shows up. 

You are probably right and will know in the first 30 second which way you will go when you see him. At the end of the day here is the avenues I see:

1. Blow it off, move forward and relations good.
2. Landowner refunds money for the year, then you both continue onward.
3. Landowner refunds money, and keep it moving forward or give credit towards the future.
4. Landowner may feel bad but doesn't think the deer is worth compensation.
5. It turns nasty and in the end you will move on and wont deal with each other again. This is a bit long winded. You have passed this deer for the 2 previous years. Through time an effort on your part, and some luck, this deer evolved into a world class deer. Unless you very wealthy or have hunt a game farm, you cant just get a world class deer. In short, all you have worked for these years is for nothing. The landowner willfully violated the agreement and thus caused you to loose these 2 years and well as the 3 years of lease payments + time. Time and energy might also be included in here. It might also be argued that moving to a new property might also require much work and multiple years of work and lease payments to build that property to a quality standard. A good lawyer could make it very expensive fast. Not sure how big the property is, but going this route might potentially cost the landowner $10k's. Major downside of this is word will travel fast if you are planning to stay and hunt local.

The landowner may think its a lot of fuss over a silly deer. Then again he probably doesn't think its silly when you hand him a check year after year.

Now you say you have a great relationship with the landowner. Perhaps its a little one sided? Obviously you get along with him good but apparently he doesn't respect your agreement much.

If it was me, I wouldn't settle for anything less than a refund for the years lease and some discount the following year and also having options to continue beyond that at a fair price.

Of course when you go and meet him the conversation will be somewhat normal initially, but when the conversation turns to matter hand, I would just put the following to him and gauge his reaction where to proceed. I would start off, "Here is where I am at. I passed this deer for 2 years, put in tons of time and effort to get that buck to that level, spent X amount leasing the place from you over those years. In the end, you broke our legal agreement and because of that I have nothing to show for it." That will summarize the gravity of the situation clearly for him. His reaction will lead you where to go.

He will likely then say something along the lines of 'Well, I want to make this right to you.' or 'What can we do to resolve this.' Don't answer it with a demand you own. Make him be the first to offer recompense. If he offers something substantial/strong, but potentially less than you like, then you at least know you know he respects you and your situation. You will then also know you can move forward working together. If he offers little or something insubstantial, then you will know he doesn't value you or your lease highly. In which case I would then move on.

Just my take on it. Take my advice you want it, or some of it or disregard it. Its the internet, you have lots of advice to choose from.


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## [email protected] (Jan 17, 2005)

PSUBowhunter said:


> I would be more pissed at myself for being upset about a kid shooting a big buck.
> 
> We all complain about the future of our youth, yet we continue to be so greedy with something that was once a past time.





BUFFALOCTYBUCKS said:


> I find this hard to believe, if it was your money we were talking about! So i guess I will stop paying for my son to hunt and tell him he has any right to any buck he wants in the woods!


Exactly. I still stick with what I said below. 






[email protected] said:


> The money is exchanged for something specific and he broke that contract. Get some of your money back. If he is so "distraught" he will gladly give it back and keep you as his customer next year. It's not about the kid, and not about owning that deer. It's about loosing the opportunity you paid and worked for.
> 
> I didn't read all the posts after reading enough "It's just a deer", "suck it up", "honest mistake" posts. You guys wouldn't say that if this was about the purchase/lease of a house, car, appliance, bow, etc that you paid money for. I don't care how good of a guy your salesman appears to be, or how "honest" his mistake was...you wouldn't just shrug it off. Well maybe some of you would, you are the pushovers salesmen dream of.


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## Smith2013 (Aug 12, 2013)

He may be a stand up guy, so talk to him and give him two options. Either he can refund your money for this season and you move on, or he can renew the lease for next season for free.


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## brandon170 (Jul 5, 2010)

I think it comes down to trust. Apparently you can't trust the land owner and if you continued your lease it would always be in the back of your mind if he is letting others in behind your back


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## Mike318 (Oct 7, 2011)

BigDeer said:


> This thread is worse than "Did I make a good shot" thread and wondering if the op will find the deer and post a pic.
> 
> post a darn pic!


exactly. or the OP realizes everything is completely made up and there are no pics to post.


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## BvrHunter (Apr 8, 2010)

18 pages :noidea:


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## TJS209 (May 17, 2011)

Where's the girl from Playboy? Least she had pics to prove it. :darkbeer:


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## Fullstrutter (Jul 8, 2008)

OP...no pics have "surfaced" from anyone, which we have ALL diligently and patiently waited for. May I inquire the actual reasoning that you are withholding even 1 lousy pic of the deer we have provided you with almost 20 pages of discussion on?


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## Timinator (Feb 10, 2012)

So what did you do? Did you talk with the landowner or what???


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## Kstigall (Feb 24, 2004)

Track down the dad and put a whooping on him he won't forget and if his wife is attractive enough let her take you out and buy you dinner........... I'll guarantee no one in the county will be looking to hunt that farm again!

If the deer is as big as you say he is you better get ready to shell out more money for your lease............ I expect the TV schmucks will be knocking on the farmers door and he's proven to be less than reliable.


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## I like Meat (Feb 14, 2009)

Heck, I'm just here to watch Kstigall's avatar ................ carry on ....


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## sjhauge (Dec 18, 2010)

Fullstrutter said:


> OP...no pics have "surfaced" from anyone, which we have ALL diligently and patiently waited for. May I inquire the actual reasoning that you are withholding even 1 lousy pic of the deer we have provided you with almost 20 pages of discussion on?


Just a thought.........troll ?


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## yotehunter243 (Aug 12, 2013)

Pictures or it didnt happen


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## BUFFALOCTYBUCKS (Feb 20, 2013)

Joe W. said:


> Sorry ...that argument is long over but.....the landowner is 89 years old....and it is a deer and not a house. I am in the construction business in NYC....I know all about contractual agreements and ensuring they are enforced. This is very different.


I am also in construction and sign between 70-100 contracts between subs and myself a year and they all maybe worded some what different they ALL are legal binding agreement period. Two people can write a contract for anything amongst themselves and it will be legal binding.

BTW WHAT DOES THE AGE OF THE LANDOWNER HAVE TO DO WITH ANYTHING! 
AND IT'S NOT A DEER! IT'S A BROKEN CONTRACT!


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## Maxemus (May 20, 2013)

^ +1. Who ever says otherwise is a flaming liberal lmao


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## sawtoothscream (Apr 19, 2008)

BUFFALOCTYBUCKS said:


> I am also in construction and sign between 70-100 contracts between subs and myself a year and they all maybe worded some what different they ALL are legal binding agreement period. Two people can write a contract for anything amongst themselves and it will be legal binding.
> 
> BTW WHAT DOES THE AGE OF THE LANDOWNER HAVE TO DO WITH ANYTHING!
> AND IT'S NOT A DEER! IT'S A BROKEN CONTRACT!


Ya I dont get the age hang up. lots of old people go to jail for horrible things, an azzhole 40yr old may grow to be a azzhole 89yr old. In the end OP wasted thousands of dollars for the opportunity to hunt this deer because 2 adults decided his contract and money means nothing. Farmer gets his cash and all his friends get to keep hunting


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## NYSBowman (Aug 21, 2012)

BUFFALOCTYBUCKS said:


> I am also in construction and sign between 70-100 contracts between subs and myself a year and they all maybe worded some what different they ALL are legal binding agreement period. Two people can write a contract for anything amongst themselves and it will be legal binding.
> 
> BTW WHAT DOES THE AGE OF THE LANDOWNER HAVE TO DO WITH ANYTHING!
> AND IT'S NOT A DEER! IT'S A BROKEN CONTRACT!


If I'm not mistaken....there only needs to be "mutual consideration"(each party gets something) for any contract to be binding.

The dilemma that the OP is going through is like that of a person who just found out that their spouse cheated.

He wants so badly to stay with his spouse(the lease)....that he's going to convince himself to accept any "story" they tell him about the "mistake".

There is absolutely no other explanation for the "meeting".....other than the OP is looking for an 'out'(a way to stay on the lease....and hopefully save some face)


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## Midwestvest (Feb 3, 2012)

NYSBowman said:


> If I'm not mistaken....there only needs to be "mutual consideration"(each party gets something) for any contract to be binding.
> 
> The dilemma that the OP is going through is like that of a person who just found out that their spouse cheated.
> 
> ...


Hi, OP here. There is one reason that a "meeting" is important to me. Before this event I had a long standing relationship with this farmer, his wife, and his extended family. In the years I have known this man, I have known him to be a man of integrity, a family man, and one who has worked by the sweat of his brow. I have never had issues of "deer going missing," never caught his buddies hunting, never got trail cam pics, etc. nothing. It has been a dream situation. 

And now he screws up. And he calls me and owns up to his mistake like a man. Call me old fashion, but I believe that he deserves the right to look me in the eyes and explain himself. I firmly believe that he will attempt to remedy this situation without my suggestion. But if he does not, if he doesn't continue to own up to his mistake as he sits across from another man who is looking him square in the eyes, I will have my answer. 

In other words, I think true men settle things face to face. I want that opportunity for myself and for the old farmer, who I am sure is being eaten up inside by his mistake.

Can you understand this perspective?


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## 2 point (Oct 27, 2010)

Look bud the only reason you even heard about the deer being killed is because it is supposedly world class and you would have found out anyway. If it had been a 140" 8 point, you wouldn't know. No telling how many deer have been killed on this place without you even knowing. This man has probably been making a killing. Leasing it to you and selling hunts to everybody else!!


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## Huff/MO (Dec 9, 2008)

NYSBowman said:


> If I'm not mistaken....there only needs to be "mutual consideration"(each party gets something) for any contract to be binding.
> 
> The dilemma that the OP is going through is like that of a person who just found out that their spouse cheated.
> 
> ...





Midwestvest said:


> Hi, OP here. There is one reason that a "meeting" is important to me. Before this event I had a long standing relationship with this farmer, his wife, and his extended family. In the years I have known this man, I have known him to be a man of integrity, a family man, and one who has worked by the sweat of his brow. I have never had issues of "deer going missing," never caught his buddies hunting, never got trail cam pics, etc. nothing. It has been a dream situation.
> 
> And now he screws up. And he calls me and owns up to his mistake like a man. Call me old fashion, but I believe that he deserves the right to look me in the eyes and explain himself. I firmly believe that he will attempt to remedy this situation without my suggestion. But if he does not, if he doesn't continue to own up to his mistake as he sits across from another man who is looking him square in the eyes, I will have my answer.
> 
> ...


NYSBowman :set1_applaud: You nailed it.


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## stork64 (Sep 11, 2010)

2 point said:


> Look bud the only reason you even heard about the deer being killed is because it is supposedly world class and you would have found out anyway. If it had been a 140" 8 point, you wouldn't know. No telling how many deer have been killed on this place without you even knowing. This man has probably been making a killing. Leasing it to you and selling hunts to everybody else!!


He has game cams all over, hasn't ever gotten pics of other hunters, and seems to have a cataloged inventory of the bucks he is grooming to kill with none going missing before. Doesn't sound like a recurring problem of others hunting on his lease he is just learning of this time.

OP, work it out face to face with him, and let us know how things shake out.


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## bigbucks170 (Feb 2, 2006)

un like everyone else. I doubt he is selling hunts when you are not there..Iam sure it went down like he has told ya..but I would be super mad at the father of the boy..I really think if you can deal
with the buck being gone. you will still have a great place to hunt..word will get around though about the farm growing a 200 incher..I know if I was a poacher and knew the land owner was 89 years
old..hahah he would never catch me in the woods...spend a few grand on trail cameras its not like they will ever go to waste, help catch poachers and scout youre deer win win..really upsetting but 
nothing you can`t over come here..the deer could have been hit by a car or died of EHD or CWD would you still want the lease?? I would take the boys father to the ground ..ground and pound until he 
Tapped out..Best of Luck on your meeting I have a feeling its going to go good for ya...


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## bigracklover (Feb 1, 2008)

I thInk the op Is trollIng, he hasnt posted a pIc and If was a true "world class" buck (killed by a kid nonetheless) wouldnt it be news by now?


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## bigbucks170 (Feb 2, 2006)

Please after the meeting PLEASE post some pics so we can pay our respects to the 200 incher (RIP)


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## crawdad (Jul 21, 2008)

Everyone calm down, he said how big the deer was. If you really must see a pic there are hundreds of pics of big deer you could go look at. Plus he said it will be a couple weeks before he gets a chance to go up there for a face to face.

He also explained why he is not posting the pic yet. I want to see it too, but for now, this is still an interesting thread, but if you don't think so, skip it.

As others have said, it's not just a deer, it's something the OP invested thousands of dollars and a lot of time into, and yes, it definitely is a broken contract. As far as attorneys, you could easily find one to take such a case on a contingency, although the wording of the contract would be critical to whether you have a good case. Then there are only court costs which would be small compared to the potential judgement. So it would be more of a question of whether you wanted to pursue it, not really a practical financial question because you don't necessarily have to pay the attorney a retainer if he thinks he will win.

As far as the post that suggested buying land would be cheaper than leasing, there is no comparison. In MS or LA, cheap land is $2000 to $3000/acre and GREAT deer hunting land is $35/acre per year. For 100 acres you would pay 250,000 to own cheap land vs pay $3500/year to lease great land. 

Even if you paid 71 years on an interest free loan (3500 x 71 = 248,500) there are taxes, insurance, and the cost to improve the land.

This is why people lease.

One more point. For those that are sure that the landowner has done this many times, why have ther been no others caught on trail cams? Maybe Midwestvest could answer that one.

Good luck, you sound like a thoughtful guy who is rightfully upset about shabby treatment.


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## BUFFALOCTYBUCKS (Feb 20, 2013)

Midwestvest said:


> Hi, OP here. There is one reason that a "meeting" is important to me. Before this event I had a long standing relationship with this farmer, his wife, and his extended family. In the years I have known this man, I have known him to be a man of integrity, a family man, and one who has worked by the sweat of his brow. I have never had issues of "deer going missing," never caught his buddies hunting, never got trail cam pics, etc. nothing. It has been a dream situation.
> 
> And now he screws up. And he calls me and owns up to his mistake like a man. Call me old fashion, but I believe that he deserves the right to look me in the eyes and explain himself. I firmly believe that he will attempt to remedy this situation without my suggestion. But if he does not, if he doesn't continue to own up to his mistake as he sits across from another man who is looking him square in the eyes, I will have my answer.
> 
> ...


OP I couldn't agree with your statement more. BUT we all make mistakes and a man will always do the right thing and that is pay for them. He owes you your money back for breaking a contract.

Also if I found the guy sincere and he reimbursed me for breaking the contract I would lease from him again.


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## trooper_740 (Mar 28, 2012)

If I were you I would ask him to reimburse you some money. I don't think you want to try and sue him as it sounds like you have a good relationsh. Also if you tried suing him he would probably not lease the land to you next year.


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## mplane72 (Apr 18, 2010)

This thread is like crack. 
IF the situation is as the OP describes then I think he is on the right course but I would be suspicious. As has been mentioned as far as a court case or anything like that the only damages a court is likely to recognize is the break of the lease contract for exclusive hunting rights, if it indeed gives those rights. The deer has nothing to do with it and no judge in his right mind is going to award damages on it's loss. It's a free range animal, not live stock or property, and no matter how well the OP may have had it patterned there is not going to be an assumption he would have killed it.
I would like to see a pic too.


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## CarlV (Mar 12, 2008)

How in the heck can we be calling what the landowner did a "mistake?"

A "mistake" is leaving the keys in your car and it was stolen.

A "mistake" is forgetting to feed the dog.

The landowner didn't make any "mistakes" as he trotted down to the bank to deposit your check.

This wasn't a mistake, and shouldn't be treated as one.

The landowner simply boned you. So what that he had some remorse? 

Did the landowner mention to the kids dad that you had leased the hunting rights? I'd find out and pay the dad a visit to discuss HIS integrity.

The landowner should offer a year free lease at least if he has any type of integrity.

If this doesn't happen, publicize the heck out of what happened and move on to another piece of property. I know it's tough to find, but it is out there.

That's my "internet opinion and advice" for all it's worth.


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## retrieverfishin (Oct 18, 2010)

Midwestvest said:


> Hi, OP here. There is one reason that a "meeting" is important to me. Before this event I had a long standing relationship with this farmer, his wife, and his extended family. In the years I have known this man, I have known him to be a man of integrity, a family man, and one who has worked by the sweat of his brow. I have never had issues of "deer going missing," never caught his buddies hunting, never got trail cam pics, etc. nothing. It has been a dream situation.
> 
> And now he screws up. And he calls me and owns up to his mistake like a man. Call me old fashion, but I believe that he deserves the right to look me in the eyes and explain himself. I firmly believe that he will attempt to remedy this situation without my suggestion. But if he does not, if he doesn't continue to own up to his mistake as he sits across from another man who is looking him square in the eyes, I will have my answer.
> 
> ...


You are a man of integrity and one whom many on here could take a lesson from. We all make mistakes, some bigger than others. While I agree with many that this is a huge mistake, I don't believe it is one that necessarily needs to ruin a relationship that the OP has spent years building. Just a simple man to man talk laying everything out on the table. Make it very clear where you stand and what your expectations are from here on out. If the relationship is what you say it is then positive things can come from this.

Best of luck OP. It sounds to me like you have a great handle on the situation and I applaud your approach.


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## dx2 (Aug 25, 2007)

Well said, retriever, and agreed.



retrieverfishin said:


> You are a man of integrity and one whom many on here could take a lesson from. We all make mistakes, some bigger than others. While I agree with many that this is a huge mistake, I don't believe it is one that necessarily needs to ruin a relationship that the OP has spent years building. Just a simple man to man talk laying everything out on the table. Make it very clear where you stand and what your expectations are from here on out. If the relationship is what you say it is then positive things can come from this.
> 
> Best of luck OP. It sounds to me like you have a great handle on the situation and I applaud your approach.


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## Kevin85 (Jul 9, 2006)

I am interested to hear how this turns out. I've had most of the biggest deer I've gotten on camera killed on neighboring properties, and THAT bothered me. I could only imagine how I would feel if they were killed on property I paid to hunt. Good luck!


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## Ned250 (Aug 10, 2009)

wow


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## bsites9 (Mar 22, 2008)

has there been pics posted of this giant yet?


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## crawdad (Jul 21, 2008)

I don't expect pics for a couple weeks or so.


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## goathollow (Jun 18, 2008)

Midwestvest said:


> Hi, OP here. There is one reason that a "meeting" is important to me. Before this event I had a long standing relationship with this farmer, his wife, and his extended family. In the years I have known this man, I have known him to be a man of integrity, a family man, and one who has worked by the sweat of his brow. I have never had issues of "deer going missing," never caught his buddies hunting, never got trail cam pics, etc. nothing. It has been a dream situation.
> 
> And now he screws up. And he calls me and owns up to his mistake like a man. Call me old fashion, but I believe that he deserves the right to look me in the eyes and explain himself. I firmly believe that he will attempt to remedy this situation without my suggestion. But if he does not, if he doesn't continue to own up to his mistake as he sits across from another man who is looking him square in the eyes, I will have my answer.
> 
> ...


Yes, I do understand it and I applaud you for your approach. I hope it works out for you, I have a feeling it's going to.


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## Junglekat (Sep 7, 2006)

Keep cutting checks it will be alright.Old man, family and friends laughing all the way to bank and taxidermist.Long distance leasing or buying properties does not work good for most people.


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## 2 point (Oct 27, 2010)

Where is the land? I'm interested in contacting the landowner for one of the hunts he offers. Thanks


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## Musgrat (Oct 22, 2008)

This is like the bowhunterchick13 playboy pic thread everybody waiting to see lol.


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## rwb16 (Jun 16, 2011)

Good luck. Hope it works out for you


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## stanlh (Jul 23, 2010)

Plain and simple the guy owes you your lease payment back at a minimum. If you want to keep hunting there I would put it to him that he owes you next year for no charge and maybe a second year no charge for all the time you put into cultivating a trophy on the property. He is likely a nice guy, but he screwed up and he knows it. He inadvertently screwed you and he knows it. I would ask him for the next two years no charge.


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## stanlh (Jul 23, 2010)

crawdad said:


> Wow, are there any attorneys from that state (Iowa?) on here that know whether the trespassing father is actually guilty of anything, since he got permission from the landowner?
> 
> Does it hinge on whether he knows that the property is leased to another? That would be useful info.
> 
> OP, how many cameras do you have out? Have you ever seen any strangers on them? Do you have any covering the access points?


Well, the contract is between farmer and lease holder, the father/son are not a party to that agreement. Since the father/son got permission from the farmer I can't see where they would have any liability. How could they?


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## NYSBowman (Aug 21, 2012)

stanlh said:


> Well, the contract is between farmer and lease holder, the father/son are not a party to that agreement. Since the father/son got permission from the farmer I can't see where they would have any liability. How could they?


It was mentioned here previously.


http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/tortious+interference

The scumbag father encouraged the farmer to breach the contract....he def can be held liable.


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## stanlh (Jul 23, 2010)

NYSBowman said:


> It was mentioned here previously.
> 
> 
> http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/tortious+interference
> ...


I have not read the whole thread, but how do you know the father encouraged breach of the lease? If the father/son did not know the land was leased I cannot imagine this could be applied.


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## Maxemus (May 20, 2013)

stanlh said:


> I have not read the whole thread, but how do you know the father encouraged breach of the lease? If the father/son did not know the land was leased I cannot imagine this could be applied.


You should read the thread


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## stanlh (Jul 23, 2010)

Midwestvest said:


> Hi, OP here. There is one reason that a "meeting" is important to me. Before this event I had a long standing relationship with this farmer, his wife, and his extended family. In the years I have known this man, I have known him to be a man of integrity, a family man, and one who has worked by the sweat of his brow. I have never had issues of "deer going missing," never caught his buddies hunting, never got trail cam pics, etc. nothing. It has been a dream situation.
> 
> And now he screws up. And he calls me and owns up to his mistake like a man. Call me old fashion, but I believe that he deserves the right to look me in the eyes and explain himself. I firmly believe that he will attempt to remedy this situation without my suggestion. But if he does not, if he doesn't continue to own up to his mistake as he sits across from another man who is looking him square in the eyes, I will have my answer.
> 
> ...


OP, you are doing the right thing here.


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## WhiteTailFevah (Nov 6, 2011)

Midwestvest said:


> Hi, OP here. There is one reason that a "meeting" is important to me. Before this event I had a long standing relationship with this farmer, his wife, and his extended family. In the years I have known this man, I have known him to be a man of integrity, a family man, and one who has worked by the sweat of his brow. I have never had issues of "deer going missing," never caught his buddies hunting, never got trail cam pics, etc. nothing. It has been a dream situation.
> 
> And now he screws up. And he calls me and owns up to his mistake like a man. Call me old fashion, but I believe that he deserves the right to look me in the eyes and explain himself. I firmly believe that he will attempt to remedy this situation without my suggestion. But if he does not, if he doesn't continue to own up to his mistake as he sits across from another man who is looking him square in the eyes, I will have my answer.
> 
> ...


Like a gentleman. Nicely done sir


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## Mr. October (Feb 15, 2003)

I guess I'd ask for the boys name so I could call and congratulate him on taking a great buck. Yes, it was your lease and the landowner should have checked with you but just think, there is a kid out there that is hooked for life and thrilled beyond belief. I'm sure there are other bucks on the property. And it is just antlers.


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## hunter_tlh (Nov 22, 2005)

I would concentrate on what's left on the farm. If there are no other bucks you are willing to hunt this fall I would ask for some kind of money back. I wouldn't pursue anything if you have the opportunity to kill something mature. World Class is what you said. I'm assuming 170 or bigger or big nontypical? Hard call but like you stated earlier at least it was a kid that is probably hooked for life and not some random joker the guy gave permission to.


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## FL-HNT-N-FSH (Dec 4, 2004)

I would demand my money back I paid for the year.


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## Square_Dancer (Nov 12, 2012)

Well what happened?


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## Olydog (Sep 1, 2010)

square_dancer said:


> well what happened?


19 pages of....................???????


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## Midwestvest (Feb 3, 2012)

Square_Dancer said:


> Well what happened?


I started a thread asking for advice, I received a ton of wonderful advice from all sides of the issue, I am in the process of handling it. 

I will let all of AT know how it shakes out, but it ain't happening right now! This is a process...


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## bsites9 (Mar 22, 2008)

still no pics at all? Trail cam, dead deer? Something?


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## sway415 (Jan 31, 2012)

bsites9 said:


> still no pics at all? Trail cam, dead deer? Something?


this...


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## ride394 (Oct 16, 2006)

marked to read later


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## dsking (Aug 8, 2008)

any new info?


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## ONEiiSHOTiiDROP (Oct 18, 2007)

wow... tough situation. I hope he updates us.


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## link1025 (Dec 30, 2008)

Wow. That really is a tough situation. From what you are saying about the character of the landowner I would think that when you sit down face to face he will make the situation right and prob do more than you would have asked for. I'm sure his thinking was that the kid would kill a doe or small buck and didn't consider your target deer would show up. I hate that both of you guys are in the spot that you are in. As a hunter only a few of us will get a chance at at world class deer. On the other side I'm sure the landowner knows this and knows the time and effort that you have invested into that deer. I truly wish you the best. Keep us informed as to what happens.


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## EROS (Feb 15, 2004)

Midwestvest said:


> Hi, OP here. There is one reason that a "meeting" is important to me. Before this event I had a long standing relationship with this farmer, his wife, and his extended family. In the years I have known this man, I have known him to be a man of integrity, a family man, and one who has worked by the sweat of his brow. I have never had issues of "deer going missing," never caught his buddies hunting, never got trail cam pics, etc. nothing. It has been a dream situation.
> 
> And now he screws up. And he calls me and owns up to his mistake like a man. Call me old fashion, but I believe that he deserves the right to look me in the eyes and explain himself. I firmly believe that he will attempt to remedy this situation without my suggestion. But if he does not, if he doesn't continue to own up to his mistake as he sits across from another man who is looking him square in the eyes, I will have my answer.
> 
> ...


Now that you posted this and this is your feelings on the situation why did you even start this thread. 
Usually if a child gets a big deer a small article is written or a picture is take by somebody. 
I'm coming to the conclusion this event never happened.


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## dsking (Aug 8, 2008)

Midwestvest said:


> Hi, OP here. There is one reason that a "meeting" is important to me. Before this event I had a long standing relationship with this farmer, his wife, and his extended family. In the years I have known this man, I have known him to be a man of integrity, a family man, and one who has worked by the sweat of his brow. I have never had issues of "deer going missing," never caught his buddies hunting, never got trail cam pics, etc. nothing. It has been a dream situation.
> 
> And now he screws up. And he calls me and owns up to his mistake like a man. Call me old fashion, but I believe that he deserves the right to look me in the eyes and explain himself. I firmly believe that he will attempt to remedy this situation without my suggestion. But if he does not, if he doesn't continue to own up to his mistake as he sits across from another man who is looking him square in the eyes, I will have my answer.
> 
> ...


Good for you bro. Its good to know some people still have those values.


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## miklacic (Sep 17, 2013)

I'm going to pistol whip the next person that talks about face to face meetings and character.


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## sticknstring33 (Nov 17, 2008)

If the deer was indeed "world class", don't you think it would've surfaced by now? The kid's dad was portrayed to be a d bag and most likely would've paraded that thing around town for weeks. Seems as if we were all taken for a ride! 

Perhaps a face-to-face meeting for an assessment of character is in store.


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## onebigdude (Dec 13, 2012)

How about a trail cam pic with the eyes blurred out? Or tattoos covered? Or his color changed? If he's dead it doesn't matter and if he's not, no one knows where you hunt so why hide the pics?


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## C.morris740 (Nov 11, 2012)

onebigdude said:


> How about a trail cam pic with the eyes blurred out? Or tattoos covered? Or his color changed? If he's dead it doesn't matter and if he's not, no one knows where you hunt so why hide the pics?


Starting to think there are no pics?


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## ohiobooners (Mar 31, 2008)

This is all hog wash. When the old man comes to the door kick it open in his face, begin a swift barrage of elbows to his mid section before transitioning to an arm bar. Once he is willing to tap and sign the deed to the farm over to you you need to then help yourself to some of his sweet tea in his fridge while watching them back their bags. 

Honestly the only answer that is the right answer is the one that you'll be able to live with. There will be no shame in telling him you forgive him and want to remain friends but you can not continue on a business level. I wouldnt be able to hand him another check knowing that other ppl may hunt there on your dime. This doesnt mean he will give them permission again, what it means is that the dad and kid kow the fella isnt going to be walking the property anytime soon and may go in without asking from now on. Yes you can have that anywhere but it sounds like it could happen here for sure. Its just opinion. Do what makes you feel right inside after the face to face.


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## brodie1978 (Jul 24, 2008)

in for pics


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## DoWorkSon (Aug 5, 2010)

Pictures or it didn't happen...


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## Uzurmnd247 (Jun 1, 2009)

I would have been up there on October 14th. The same day as your thread started. Tomorrow is not promised. If he kicks the bucket tonight. Let's say the family puts no tresspassing up, You can't go back and retrieve your camera's or stands. That guy and his son is waiting for you to drop the lease, so that they can hunt. I've offered twice as much as a gun club here to hunt a prime piece of property. They have been on it since 1976. The land owner would not accept, because of the loyalty of the hunt club. I would check to see if the father and son wasn't kin to the landowner. If you decide to keep the lease, and raise another world class buck and the landowner passes away, then what? Do you have potential bucks that could be world class in the next year or two? Word of those types of bucks travel fast. Just some things to think about!


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## HOKIEHUNTER07 (Oct 4, 2005)

If you like the property and would like to continue hunting there I wouldn't make a huge fuss. You can emphasize how much that deer meant to you, but in my experience lease or not, if you raise a stink you'll be looking for a new place to hunt.


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## Joe W. (Feb 6, 2006)

Uzurmnd247 said:


> I would have been up there on October 14th. The same day as your thread started. Tomorrow is not promised. If he kicks the bucket tonight. Let's say the family puts no tresspassing up, You can't go back and retrieve your camera's or stands. That guy and his son is waiting for you to drop the lease, so that they can hunt. I've offered twice as much as a gun club here to hunt a prime piece of property. They have been on it since 1976. The land owner would not accept, because of the loyalty of the hunt club. I would check to see if the father and son wasn't kin to the landowner. If you decide to keep the lease, and raise another world class buck and the landowner passes away, then what? Do you have potential bucks that could be world class in the next year or two? Word of those types of bucks travel fast. Just some things to think about!


Do you realize how selfish this all sounds?? The only thing a man's death would mean to you would be losing out at a chance on a big deer..... jeeze...I hope the landowner has the common courtesy not to drop dead before our guy shoots the big buck! WTH??


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## WRMorrison (Dec 26, 2007)

tag...so I don't have to google it again to find it

-WRM


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## IAWoodsman (Nov 30, 2012)

Sound like someone to get away from. I'd have a hard time enjoying my hunts with that guy on my mind.


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## durangol2 (Apr 24, 2007)

That is a tough one. I know what its like to do a ton of work just to have someone else get the deer your after but on the other hand good 
hunting land is hard to come by. At least it was a kid and not just some random poacher.


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## WVohioFAN (Jun 5, 2011)

Post pics OP. You've jerked us off long enough.


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## optimal_max (Oct 26, 2010)

If the landowner has any respect for his side of the agreement, or remorse for his mistake, he will try to make an effort make it up to you.


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## SNATCH26 (Aug 20, 2012)

This has been going for 20 pages and the OP is afraid to post pics?
We are not asking for a copy of the treasure map!
Pic a pic off your computer of some huge trail cam buck and post it.
What are u trying to accomplish by holding pics? I will go out on a limb and say that nobody here wants YOUR lease.
This community needs pics!!!!


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## Rothhar1 (Apr 1, 2007)

Actually everyone here is all about it was just a kid and bla feel good blaa !! Truth is the DAD knew exactly what he was doing to get that place and landowner to allow them to hunt and that KID is a small adult and has learned how to cheat people and the system .I know that the fact that the op had a lease was likely brought up several times as it should of been in conversation with the pair .But the DAD is likely a con artist and teaching the kid the same ..Just my opinion .Use the lease hunt this year and find a new spot that will have better trust .

That KID is not guilt free here and the dad is despicable.Kids are used to comit all kinds of crimes and untrustworth situations everyday .And they know it many times.


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## flinginairos (Jan 3, 2006)

In for updates


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## Square_Dancer (Nov 12, 2012)

Where are the pics?!


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## gcab (Mar 24, 2010)

My guess is there won't be any pics, and that the OP is actually the father of the kid and is trying to find out what kind of trouble he may be in if the actual lessee does anything now that they found out. Thats my guess


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## lungpuncher1 (Jul 2, 2010)

In for updates


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## dukore (Jun 23, 2006)

I agree, we need pics after two weeks of waiting. My guess is world class may have been a little misleading and it's just another nice deer.


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## Fullstrutter (Jul 8, 2008)

I'm getting sick and tired of seeing this annoying BS thread on the main page and still no friggin pics. Delete the friggin thread already if you arent going to post pics. 

/End rant


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## RCL (Apr 23, 2004)

It's all you guys asking for pics that keep this thread on the front page.......give it a rest and let things play out......:doh:


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## grishw1 (Jan 26, 2013)

Sure I would be disappointed and all the land owner should have done was tell the visitors what not to shoot. I'm of the opinion the guests should have known better. I would have never let my kid shoot that deer. If you love the place it was a mistake and let it go and enjoy what you have.


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## Babyk (Jul 5, 2011)

Don't burn a bridge 

Tell him next year lease is free for you to make up for his mistake


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## Square_Dancer (Nov 12, 2012)

Ban the OP if he doesn't post the pics.


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## Skeptic (Dec 11, 2005)

I'd imagine if the OP is considering legal action he is better off not posting any more. I wouldn't.


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## shaffer88 (Dec 3, 2007)

Fullstrutter said:


> I'm getting sick and tired of seeing this annoying BS thread on the main page and still no friggin pics. Delete the friggin thread already if you arent going to post pics.
> 
> /End rant


I check this thing every day just for the pics but let down again every.


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## Fury90flier (Jun 27, 2012)

ohiobooners said:


> This is all hog wash. When the old man comes to the door *kick it open in his face, begin a swift barrage of elbows to his mid section before transitioning to an arm bar. Once he is willing to tap and sign the deed to the farm over to you you need to then help yourself to some of his sweet tea in his fridge while watching them back their bags*....


You're not allowed to watch wrestling without your meds...


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## RdgRuner (Oct 3, 2012)

Can't wait to hear what happened when it talks to the landowner face to face and also see the pics of this brute.


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## Huff/MO (Dec 9, 2008)

Square_Dancer said:


> Ban the OP if he doesn't post the pics.


This.


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## Midwestvest (Feb 3, 2012)

Guys, seriously? I told you I would update when this thing is resolved...WITH PICS. I am considering legal action and in conversation with law enforcement. I have tc pics of them dragging the deer to their 4 wheeler. I will let you know how it ends WHEN it ends.


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## bigbucks170 (Feb 2, 2006)

when is the meeting taking place?


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## zell (Jul 13, 2012)

Never because the OP is probably jerking us all off.



bigbucks170 said:


> when is the meeting taking place?


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## C.morris740 (Nov 11, 2012)

So what's wrong with posting a pic now? How did the face to face go with land owner? Have you even talked to him or just go to law enforcement?


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## air leak (Nov 15, 2010)

What does law enforcement have to do with this?…

Regardless of your "exclusive rights", if this kid had the permission of the landowner, then he is not trespassing. If this kid had the proper license and tags, and youth season was open, then there isn't any game laws violation.

"IF" this story is remotely true, and this alleged "world class deer" was 200 inches, and you allegedly passed on it last year…well, shame on you.


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## Skeptic (Dec 11, 2005)

air leak said:


> What does law enforcement have to do with this?…
> 
> Regardless of your "exclusive rights", if this kid had the permission of the landowner, then he is not trespassing. If this kid had the proper license and tags, and youth season was open, then there isn't any game laws violation.
> 
> "IF" this story is remotely true, and this alleged "world class deer" was 200 inches, and you allegedly passed on it last year…well, shame on you.


You are wrong on so many accounts. He leased all hunting rights, therefore the landowner had no legal right to grant permission. If my neighbor gives you permission to hunt my land, guess what, you are trespassing. Same thing here.


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## Buxndiverdux (Oct 19, 2008)

air leak said:


> What does law enforcement have to do with this?…
> 
> Regardless of your "exclusive rights", if this kid had the permission of the landowner, then he is not trespassing. If this kid had the proper license and tags, and youth season was open, then there isn't any game laws violation.
> 
> "IF" this story is remotely true, and this alleged "world class deer" was 200 inches, and you allegedly passed on it last year…well, shame on you.


Not exactly. If the OP and the landowner have a hunting rights agreement, then any hunting rights MUST go through the OP.

Kinda like a farmer leasing farming rights and then another farmer down the road knocks on the landowners door and asks to pick the corn. He picks corn and moves on. This is the same situation. The landowner is liable for breach of contract with the OP and the poachers are possibly liable for trespassing.


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## Skeptic (Dec 11, 2005)

Another way to look at it. If a farmer leases ground from me to farm....what do you think would happen if I told my buddy he could farm 10 acres that I already leased to the farmer? I'd be getting my butt sued by the farmer that OWNS the lease!


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## huntinfool14 (Oct 17, 2002)

subscribe


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## Skeptic (Dec 11, 2005)

Buxndiverdux said:


> Not exactly. If the OP and the landowner have a hunting rights agreement, then any hunting rights MUST go through the OP.
> 
> Kinda like a farmer leasing farming rights and then another farmer down the road knocks on the landowners door and asks to pick the corn. He picks corn and moves on. This is the same situation. The landowner is liable for breach of contract with the OP and the poachers are possibly liable for trespassing.


Lol guess we were typing at the same time.


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## air leak (Nov 15, 2010)

Skeptic said:


> Another way to look at it. If a farmer leases ground from me to farm....what do you think would happen if I told my buddy he could farm 10 acres that I already leased to the farmer? I'd be getting my butt sued by the farmer that OWNS the lease!


Guys, I'm just not buying this story. We don't even know if this actually happened. 

I like your user name…"Skeptic"…that is what I am regarding this story.


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## sticknstring33 (Nov 17, 2008)

Trail cam pics of the alleged monster being drug out. The BS train is near derailment...


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## bscountry08 (Oct 15, 2013)

I have been following this for a while can't wait to hear what happens OP


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## BowTechBuck (Jul 3, 2009)

Speaking with law enforcement in a civil action? Monty is this you


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## Skeptic (Dec 11, 2005)

BowTechBuck said:


> Speaking with law enforcement in a civil action? Monty is this you


If it happened like he said I can believe there'd be criminal action as well, including confiscation of the deer head.


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## chaded (Jan 15, 2011)

I would be curious to see how exactly the legal terms worked in this case. I thought that as soon as the farmer granted permission to someone else which would be breaking the exclusive hunting rights agreement the contract would be broken and therefore void. Regardless, the landowner still owns the land and can choose to break the contract at any time he wants but of course will reap whatever consequences there is for breaking the agreement. I don't know how exactly it will work with the father and son knowing that the land was being leased for hunting and pursuing to hunt. I cannot imagine anyone getting in trouble though if they did not know the land was being leased for hunting and just simply asked the landowner for permission and he said yes. That doesn't seem to be the case here and it seems that they did know. Not sure exactly how it all works though because I have never been apart of a lease or anything like that.


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## TheWood!! (Mar 27, 2011)

Legal action? Kinda sounds like the lady who spilled her hot coffee in her lap and sued McDonalds because the coffee was hot. 

Just get your money back or a free lease next year and move on. Good Lord. Everybody is so happy to jump on the legal bandwagon nowadays. America is in a sad state of affairs these days. Just makes me sick.


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## NYSBowman (Aug 21, 2012)

Midwestvest said:


> Guys, seriously? I told you I would update when this thing is resolved...WITH PICS. I am considering legal action and in conversation with law enforcement. I have tc pics of them dragging the deer to their 4 wheeler. I will let you know how it ends WHEN it ends.


Glad to hear that you considering(seriously considering, I hope) criminal/civil action.

After reading that the kid's father was laughing about it.....I sincerely hope that you rake him over the coals(tortious interference). And then make sure to laugh in his face when the judge rules against him.

Suing the scumbag dad will make him think twice before poaching again. I'm sure a game violation isn't a huge fine....but the whole tortious interference thing can cost him a big chunk of change in civil court.

Make sure to have the deer mount confiscated also. It's stolen(poached) goods.....and taking it back is the right thing to do. Don't let the bleeding hearts sway you into feeling sorry for the kid. No parent should allow a child(their child or not) to keep stolen, shoplifted...or in this case POACHED property.

It would send the WRONG message if he was allowed to keep it.


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## AF_TT (Aug 24, 2008)

zell said:


> Never because the OP is probably jerking us all off.


Around maybe?
I got a chuckle never the less.


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## bgriff008 (Dec 28, 2011)

NYSBowman said:


> Glad to hear that you considering(seriously considering, I hope) criminal/civil action.
> 
> After reading that the kid's father was laughing about it.....I sincerely hope that you rake him over the coals(tortious interference). And then make sure to laugh in his face when the judge rules against him.
> 
> ...


Ive read alot of posts, but if you get permission from the land owner then how is it the dad and sons fault? The land owner is at fault. He broke the agreement. Im just asking. Im not a lawyer and dont know how this works. Sad thing is the land owner probably never thought this kid would get that specific buck. So he probably was thinking no harm, no foul. Im sure the land owner is sweating this one.


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## zell (Jul 13, 2012)

AF_TT said:


> Around maybe?
> I got a chuckle never the less.


Oh yes "around". Don't wanna leave that out!:darkbeer:


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## Skeptic (Dec 11, 2005)

TheWood!! said:


> Legal action? Kinda sounds like the lady who spilled her hot coffee in her lap and sued McDonalds because the coffee was hot.
> 
> Just get your money back or a free lease next year and move on. Good Lord. Everybody is so happy to jump on the legal bandwagon nowadays. America is in a sad state of affairs these days. Just makes me sick.


Did you ever care to read the specifics of the coffee case?

Dozens of people had similar things happen. McD's knew people were suffering burns from the coffee and they never adjusted the temp. The lady actually only sued for her medical bills but the jury awarded punitive damages due to mcDs negligence. At the time the award was roughly one day of mcDs coffee sales. The lady wasn't trying to profit from it and has faced years of backlash from jack wagons like yourself that never cared to read up on what actually took place. She wouldn't have even sued had they not refused to pay her medical bills!


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## DeadEyeB (Aug 23, 2011)

bgriff008 said:


> Ive read alot of posts, but if you get permission from the land owner then how is it the dad and sons fault? The land owner is at fault. He broke the agreement. Im just asking. Im not a lawyer and dont know how this works. Sad thing is the land owner probably never thought this kid would get that specific buck. So he probably was thinking no harm, no foul. Im sure the land owner is sweating this one.


I believe they could be victims in the story as well. Likely to lose that deer.


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## TheWood!! (Mar 27, 2011)

Skeptic said:


> Did you ever care to read the specifics of the coffee case?
> 
> Dozens of people had similar things happen. McD's knew people were suffering burns from the coffee and they never adjusted the temp. The lady actually only sued for her medical bills but the jury awarded punitive damages due to mcDs negligence. At the time the award was roughly one day of mcDs coffee sales. The lady wasn't trying to profit from it and has faced years of backlash from jack wagons like yourself that never cared to read up on what actually took place. She wouldn't have even sued had they not refused to pay her medical bills!


Ok, Kory. I understand that part. However, it's freaking coffee. It's supposed to be hot. If somebody comes to my house to visit and I give them a cup of coffee it's going to hot. If they spill it on themselves, well, they should have been more careful. It's just stupid she tried to get McDonalds to pay her bills in the first place. She is the idiot who spilled the coffee. Be more careful or drink cold coffee. It just seems to me like more and more Americans are starting to feel more and more entitled. It just bugs me. But I like you. So I am going to leave it at that. We will agree to disagree.


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## sticknstring33 (Nov 17, 2008)

Pretty bad deal if that kid loses the deer. Better get a replica made soon.


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## ohiobooners (Mar 31, 2008)

Fury90flier said:


> You're not allowed to watch wrestling without your meds...


No No, that's MMA...not wrestling haha


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## wvhuntinnut (Sep 1, 2004)

TheWood!! said:


> Ok, Kory. I understand that part. However, it's freaking coffee. It's supposed to be hot. If somebody comes to my house to visit and I give them a cup of coffee it's going to hot. If they spill it on themselves, well, they should have been more careful. It's just stupid she tried to get McDonalds to pay her bills in the first place. She is the idiot who spilled the coffee. Be more careful or drink cold coffee. It just seems to me like more and more Americans are starting to feel more and more entitled. It just bugs me. But I like you. So I am going to leave it at that. We will agree to disagree.


The difference here is that your home coffee maker doesn't make coffee as hot as what they were at Mcd's at that time -- the lady ended up with burns on 16% of her body -- third degree on her legs and required skin grafts. Think about that a second -- the damn coffee was so hot as to cause a burn severe enough that it required skin grafts.... And, this wasn't the first complaint Mcd's got from the temp of the coffee causing injury -- but because they were competing for business and were told that the higher temps pulled more flavor out of the grounds they ignored the complaints to try and gain a competitive edge. It was just a matter of time before they got burned themselves on this issue.


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## Skeptic (Dec 11, 2005)

TheWood!! said:


> Ok, Kory. I understand that part. However, it's freaking coffee. It's supposed to be hot. If somebody comes to my house to visit and I give them a cup of coffee it's going to hot. If they spill it on themselves, well, they should have been more careful. It's just stupid she tried to get McDonalds to pay her bills in the first place. She is the idiot who spilled the coffee. Be more careful or drink cold coffee. It just seems to me like more and more Americans are starting to feel more and more entitled. It just bugs me. But I like you. So I am going to leave it at that. We will agree to disagree.


I do agree we have become a sue happy society. 

Regarding the case and your example though, if you give me coffee and it burns me to the point it leaves scars will you serve it to someone else at the same temp? Now it happens again, then what? At some point YOU have to realize that you are serving a dangerous product and do something about it. That was the basis of the case and once I understood that I have no problem with it. We all want our coffee HOT, but when it's so hot the burn causes people to need skin grafts there is a serious problem. When they knew of the problem for several years and did nothing about it there is a MUCH bigger problem. 

Beyond that, do I know you?


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## DonMatzeder (Sep 28, 2012)

BS..when you buy coffee to go, you want it hot when you get to where you are going. If you put the coffee between your legs to hold it, you are stupid.....


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## huntnFiend (Feb 17, 2009)

Ya the poor lady in the McDonalds case gets all this **** because people just got their info from the media. She just wanted her medical expenses paid for which would have been what for McDonalds, like a penny out of our pocket, but they pretty much told her to Fu*k off. The one that gets me is the robber in California that fell through the persons sky light attempting to get in to their house. He sued and won because it didn't support his weight.


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## Baldona523 (Feb 12, 2010)

DonMatzeder said:


> BS..when you buy coffee to go, you want it hot when you get to where you are going. If you put the coffee between your legs to hold it, you are stupid.....


Not to add to the derail, but the reason McDonalds had their coffee so hot was because it was able to last longer legally before they had to throw it out. So it was all about saving them money, it had really nothing to do with serving it hot. 

Back to OP, he sounds like a very stand up guy from his posts and with as many as he has on this thread a guys' true intentions usually leak out. I give the OP props for standing true and talking to the farmer like a man. I hope it turns out well for the Op, it seems like the only good scenario is the farmer gives the OP back his lease money for the year and they continue the relationship.


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## Switch734 (Feb 7, 2012)

I bet the OP is telling a wise tale. Which I'm impressed with all the people that believed it. No pictures and over twenty pages. Wow haha . In for pics, yay! Pics will never happen. OP is likely is after a world class water buffalo


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## TheWood!! (Mar 27, 2011)

huntnFiend said:


> Ya the poor lady in the McDonalds case gets all this **** because people just got their info from the media. She just wanted her medical expenses paid for which would have been what for McDonalds, like a penny out of our pocket, but they pretty much told her to Fu*k off. The one that gets me is the robber in California that fell through the persons sky light attempting to get in to their house. He sued and won because it didn't support his weight.


Ok, maybe that was a bad situation to compare this to. I still think the lady sho puts a hot cup of coffee between her legs and burns herself should have been slapped for being stupid. And I do not agree that McDonalds should pay her medical bills. 

However, your comparison is better. Thank you.


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## crawdad (Jul 21, 2008)

Perhaps it's time for legal action against the OP for not posting pics! That or torches and pitchforks?

Haha. Come on guys, he said a long time ago he will wait until it's settled before he posts pics. He said it was a buck in the 190's. I know if I had around 10 grand at stake with possible legal issues, I certainly would not do anything to complicate matters either. Certainly would not cave in to pressure from AT posters if there was a remote possibility it could affect my position.


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## C.morris740 (Nov 11, 2012)

How could posting a pic affect anything legally? Not arguing just honestly asking. I don't believe anything will come out of this story but we'll see.


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## BigDeer (Aug 9, 2005)

Still no pictures? smh


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## crawdad (Jul 21, 2008)

Well I think he suspected the POS Dad might be tempted to show it off, maybe who knows, enter it in a buck contest. If taken illegally (trespassing) he could get in further trouble. All I am saying is I would keep my cards close to the vest until the matter was resolved.

Plus I honestly can't see what all the crying is over having to wait to see THIS buck, when this site and many others are full of pics of giant bucks. In fact, I estimate about half of those posts are just kidding. I hope more than that.


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## bgriff008 (Dec 28, 2011)

Thats society for ya. We are so persuaded by the media. The majority of the time they leave key details out and you know us.....we believe what ever we hear or read. 

It must be true if its on the internet. Here comes my date. He is a french model. Bonjor. LOL. That commercial cracks me up. 

There are alot of idiots in this world, they walk among us.....


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## krabbiepatty (Feb 8, 2007)

This is the worst leave us hanging thread in the history of AT....


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## crawdad (Jul 21, 2008)

Hey Midwestvest, how did it go? It has been two weeks- did you talk to the landowner yet?


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## Rg176bnc (Dec 13, 2004)

My guess is as soon as he enters the room w/ the farmer the OP will know weather it was an honest "mistake" or BS. Im going w/ BS.


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## alancac98 (Jan 22, 2012)

huntnFiend said:


> Ya the poor lady in the McDonalds case gets all this **** because people just got their info from the media. She just wanted her medical expenses paid for which would have been what for McDonalds, like a penny out of our pocket, but they pretty much told her to Fu*k off. The one that gets me is the robber in California that fell through the persons sky light attempting to get in to their house. He sued and won because it didn't support his weight.


How about the one from Johnstown, Pa when a guy tried to break into a company's warehouse that was guarded by guard dogs (there were warning signs all over the fences he had to climb). Well, he got chewed up real good, before a security guard got there to call the dogs off. Anyhoo, the guy sued the company and won $250, 000 for excessive force damages, as well, as his medical bills - and he was the one trying to break in!


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## brandon170 (Jul 5, 2010)

Any new news? Have you talked to the land owner?


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## TheWood!! (Mar 27, 2011)

I'm going to go out on a limb and call BS on this whole situation. That's just me though.


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## BigDeer (Aug 9, 2005)

still no pictures????????????


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## spekwa91 (Mar 30, 2011)

Pictures.


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## RodsNBows (May 26, 2009)

Gotta update this!!!


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## zell (Jul 13, 2012)

Never gonna happen. The OP has been jerking us all off for the last two weeks. Feel free to join the band wagon. 



RodsNBows said:


> Gotta update this!!!


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## WRMorrison (Dec 26, 2007)

I personally don't think it's all BS; I just think that updating the AT community isn't at the top of his priorities.

-WRM


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## Walleyenut (Jul 11, 2013)

Winner winner chicken dinner. The update will come in due time.


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## jaytea24 (Sep 26, 2012)




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## tanna114 (May 2, 2005)

We definitely need an update. The OP said he was going to the lease in two weeks back on October 14th. It's been 2 weeks, so come on Midwestvest, help us out. You can't start a thread like this and then not give us any more updates.


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## PSE_OMEN (Oct 13, 2010)

drop the lease price or money back. $$$ is no one's friend.


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## Dride (Apr 10, 2012)

In for the pics!


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## jamesbalog (Dec 14, 2009)

Just read 66 pages of this thread on my phone.... Cant wait to find out the outcome


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## bigbucks170 (Feb 2, 2006)

Pics...results of the meeting.


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## sway415 (Jan 31, 2012)

Nothing yet???


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## Midwestvest (Feb 3, 2012)

Hey fellas, thanks for the patience. I am hunting hard right now and will update when I get a chance to sit down and write it all out. As Morrison said a few posts above, it just hasn't been my top priority to update all of my internet stranger friends. I will, though, trust me.


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## Skeptic (Dec 11, 2005)

Funny how many guys live and die for an update to this thread!


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## WYelkhunter (Mar 26, 2006)

Midwestvest.. would you be upset or feeling something should be done if the kid had shot a doe and not the the buck you were after ?


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## gwm (Oct 16, 2008)

Skeptic said:


> Funny how many guys live and die for an update to this thread!


No sh*t. You would think this time of year they would have other things on their mind.


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## Skeptic (Dec 11, 2005)

WYelkhunter said:


> Midwestvest.. would you be upset or feeling something should be done if the kid had shot a doe and not the the buck you were after ?


I doubt it'd bother him as much. The big bucks is why he pays so much for the lease.


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## Lowlevlflyer (Aug 2, 2011)

27 pages of this mess, starting on October 14th until today. I can tell you one thing... if this had been MY lease, and I was as concerned about it as the OP has been crowing that he is, I WOULD HAVE HAD a meeting by now and got this straightened out once and for all! 27 pages and no pictures, not even one of this supposed "world class" deer. Not one word of a huge "world class" deer being shot in the area anywhere on the internet. Personally, I think the whole thing is BS and the deer wasn't nearly as big as the OP says it was. Wouldn't be the first time that's happened here on AT now, would it. Well, to each his own, I guess! lol


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## Midwestvest (Feb 3, 2012)

Lowlevlflyer said:


> 27 pages of this mess, starting on October 14th until today. I can tell you one thing... if this had been MY lease, and I was as concerned about it as the OP has been crowing that he is, I WOULD HAVE HAD a meeting by now and got this straightened out once and for all! 27 pages and no pictures, not even one of this supposed "world class" deer. Not one word of a huge "world class" deer being shot in the area anywhere on the internet. Personally, I think the whole thing is BS and the deer wasn't nearly as big as the OP says it was. Wouldn't be the first time that's happened here on AT now, would it. Well, to each his own, I guess! lol


The deer grossed 187 as a typical, which is about ten inches smaller than I was guessing...so I guess you are right on that point. The meeting has been had. My #1 priority is not updating an internet community. I am working on my own time. I will give a FULL update when I am not hanging in a tree!

Everyone else Should be Doing what I am doing right now...hunting!


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## sway415 (Jan 31, 2012)

Skeptic said:


> Funny how many guys live and die for an update to this thread!


Including yourself...


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## Skeptic (Dec 11, 2005)

sway415 said:


> Including yourself...


I could care less, I just like reading the comments .


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## ohiobooners (Mar 31, 2008)

Midwestvest said:


> The deer grossed 187 as a typical, which is about ten inches smaller than I was guessing...so I guess you are right on that point. The meeting has been had. My #1 priority is not updating an internet community. I am working on my own time. I will give a FULL update when I am not hanging in a tree!
> 
> Everyone else Should be Doing what I am doing right now...hunting!


I don't think anyone thinks it should be your #1 priority. People are just curious. The question was asked on a public forum so a lot of people gave their opinions and understandably are curious to know how it played out since it could happen to any of us.


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## crawdad (Jul 21, 2008)

Good luck hunting Midwestvest. I keep checking cuz I find this one of the most interesting threads on AT, so I'm in for the conclusion.

And a pic.


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## WVohioFAN (Jun 5, 2011)

Midwestvest said:


> The deer grossed 187 as a typical, which is about ten inches smaller than I was guessing...so I guess you are right on that point. The meeting has been had. My #1 priority is not updating an internet community. I am working on my own time. I will give a FULL update when I am not hanging in a tree!
> 
> Everyone else Should be Doing what I am doing right now...hunting!



The meeting has been had and MidwestVest is in a tree(presumably on said lease). Therefore, we can all assume that MidWestVest took it up the tailpipe with a grin....just like I said he would.

The Father, Son, and Farmer are still laughing.


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## krabbiepatty (Feb 8, 2007)

After 27 pages and two weeks you can't take ten minutes to tell everyone what happened?


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## NYSBowman (Aug 21, 2012)

WVohioFAN said:


> The meeting has been had and MidwestVest is in a tree(presumably on said lease). Therefore, we can all assume that MidWestVest took it up the tailpipe with a grin....just like I said he would.
> 
> The Father, Son, and Farmer are still laughing.


If the OP didn't get 1-2yrs worth of refund AND prosecute/sue the scumbag dad....then I would agree with the "up the tailpipe" assessment.

Its funny, how some think that the dad/son should get a pass. I'm guessing if this was a "I caught a trespasser" thread....those same people would be telling the OP to call the Game Warden, press charges, etc etc


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## Peewee31 (Sep 20, 2006)

WVohioFAN said:


> I gathered that you live far away from this property. I wouldn't be a bit surprised if your farmer 'friend' didn't put his buddy(don't think for a second this wasn't a friend of his because it was) and his kid in the right spot. Call me a cynic.



I agree. Since you have the hunting rights the deer was actually poached.


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## tanna114 (May 2, 2005)

krabbiepatty said:


> After 27 pages and two weeks you can't take ten minutes to tell everyone what happened?


Exactly! If you didn't want the attention, you shouldn't have started such a polarizing thread.


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## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

Midwestvest said:


> Hey folks, got an unfortunate situation on my hands.
> 
> I lease a good chunk of land in the midwest and pay a premium price for it. I have a great relationship with the landowner, we really enjoy each others' company, it is mutually beneficial, etc. The lease is exclusive...and in writing: meaning I have paid and signed for the sole rights to deer hunt.
> 
> ...


Unfortunately there not alot you can do. Yeah raise a fuss or sue but lost lease for sure. Being someone who has ran a lease for many years have come to the realization if the landowners wants to do something he can and will. It not always right but thats just part of leasing.
DB


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## WVohioFAN (Jun 5, 2011)

tanna114 said:


> Exactly! If you didn't want the attention, you shouldn't have started such a polarizing thread.


Cosign. Guy asks for opinions and then takes an arrogant tone like he's above talking to us "internet strangers". 

I wonder what pose that kid and his dad will get that buck mounted in.


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## turkeyhunter60 (Apr 19, 2010)

Everybody has been had on here, and with no pictures...


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## crawdad (Jul 21, 2008)

Quit dogging the man or he ain't never gonna tell us!


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## Lowlevlflyer (Aug 2, 2011)

crawdad said:


> Quit dogging the man or he ain't never gonna tell us!


He's never gonna tell us anyway, because it's BS, pure and simple.


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## Lowlevlflyer (Aug 2, 2011)

Peewee31 said:


> I agree. Since you have the hunting rights the deer was actually poached.


I'd like to see you make that one stick in a court of law. Lease or not, a landOWNER can still do what he wants on his own land. True, an exclusive lease gives a hunter legal rights, but saying that the deer was "poached" isn't even CLOSE to being right. Landowner gave permission, deer was shot in season on his land... how do you figure it was poached? No game laws were violated that I can see... only a civil case of a lease violation.


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## Square_Dancer (Nov 12, 2012)

dear mods, please ban the OP


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## Square_Dancer (Nov 12, 2012)

Lowlevlflyer said:


> I'd like to see you make that one stick in a court of law. Lease or not, a landOWNER can still do what he wants on his own land. True, an exclusive lease gives a hunter legal rights, but saying that the deer was "poached" isn't even CLOSE to being right. Landowner gave permission, deer was shot in season on his land... how do you figure it was poached? No game laws were violated that I can see... only a civil case of a lease violation.


Sorry, but If I'm leasing 5,000 acres of farmland from you and you decide to dumb thousands of gallons of 2,4-D on all my crops, consequently wiping them all out, your ass is gonna get sued into an oblivion, regardless if you're the landowner. 

I don't think you understand how land leases work.


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## KSQ2 (Oct 10, 2007)

As we await an update, I'll repeat what I said earlier. You guys who lease ground hundreds of miles away from your home have to understand, this is happening to you too, whether you know it or not.


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## nicko (Feb 17, 2006)

Makes sense. Ban the OP because he isn't giving everybody what they want. Some of you need to relax.


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## Lost Sheep (Oct 24, 2013)

After all this time, why no trail cam pix? This thread was a waste of time.


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## robampton (Nov 24, 2004)

I may have missed parts of this, but regarding the whole discussion of what can be done to whom, it would seem would largely be determined by what the actual lease he has in place says. From the legal aspect, what is in that lease means everything. We are all debating something that maybe completely irrelevant.


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## hoosiereric (Aug 28, 2013)

Midwestvest said:


> Hey fellas, thanks for the patience. I am hunting hard right now and will update when I get a chance to sit down and write it all out. As Morrison said a few posts above, it just hasn't been my top priority to update all of my internet stranger friends. I will, though, trust me.





Midwestvest said:


> The deer grossed 187 as a typical, which is about ten inches smaller than I was guessing...so I guess you are right on that point. The meeting has been had. My #1 priority is not updating an internet community. I am working on my own time. I will give a FULL update when I am not hanging in a tree!
> 
> Everyone else Should be Doing what I am doing right now...hunting!


Ok, here is the problem I have... 

This was a "top priority" for you when you reached out to your "internet stranger friends" for help/advise, and as we can all see, many replied with both good and bad. So, to summarize, you reached out for help/guidance and thats what you got from many who took a minute and didn't mind "working on my own time."

Now the tables have turned, and they are asking you to tell them what happened. As you stated many many times that you would. But alas, you are far to busy a man to be bothered by "internet stranger friends" asking something from you in return.

TL;DR - It's a priority when YOU need something.

P.S. I think this all smells like bull droppings... I hope to be proved wrong of course. Regardless, I wish you the best in all your future endeavors. Happy hunting! :usa2:


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## Jester1023 (Dec 16, 2010)

Midwestvest said:


> Hey folks, got an unfortunate situation on my hands.
> 
> I lease a good chunk of land in the midwest and pay a premium price for it. I have a great relationship with the landowner, we really enjoy each others' company, it is mutually beneficial, etc. The lease is exclusive...and in writing: meaning I have paid and signed for the sole rights to deer hunt.
> 
> ...


No sir, there are worse things than someone else killing a free range animal on your lease. Maybe the kid hunts from your treestand and falls out to his death. Maybe he accidentally shoots his dad. When I first read the post, I was pretty pissed for you...as I know what it,s like to have someone kill "the one." Then I got to thinking about the situation.Maybe your lease next year is free. Have you tried to contact the boy and his Dad for some pics of the deer you were growing? Maybe you be the bigger fella and make a cd of the footage you have of the buck. I'm guessing the kid could learn from it. As far as your buddy (the landowner), I'd be a friend first, then talk some business. Let it go and don't sweat the small stuff. By the way, post up a pic of the world class deer so we can enjoy/feal your pain.


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## JBudz (Dec 22, 2012)

OP is full of BS!!!!! Begs for some advice, then acts like everyone is a pee on when they want to see a conclusion. He obviously isn't getting the attention at home, and needed to find it elsewhere. Like when my sister had a second kid, and the first one was feeling left out, so he started to crap his pants just to get any kind of attention. This, smells A LOT like that....


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## wingmastr23 (Sep 10, 2010)

First off......after reading 28 pages of this - my latest opinion is: Who gives a flying F??!!

So annoyed with myself for reading thru this - thinking that the OP was going to (after his 2 week meeting) post a couple pics, update the story, etc. Well, nearly a month later - there is nothing. 

Obviously the OP is "hanging in a tree" night and day....and can't stop for 5 minutes to post a pic, or update the situation that I spent an hour reading....OR....he is full of it.

Either way - who cares? Post pic's and the story - or don't....

Us "Internet Stranger Friends" should learn from this - and don't jump on any OP's bandwagon - getting all emotionally charged one way or the other about a "story" that may or may not be true...

I went from feeling sorry for the little kid - to feeling sorry for the OP...to thinking some of the guys on AT are pricks....to "maybe these pricks are right"...to W T F? Nothing after a month???....to my last thought, why the hell did I just waste my time reading this possibly made up BS....


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## Midwestvest (Feb 3, 2012)

*OFFICIAL UPDATE*

I will start with the smoking gun:








There were 15 pics taken of them pulling the deer out, loading it on the ATV, standing around talking, and driving off. 

Meeting with the farmer: He is devastated. Keep in mind that this farmer owns more land than I actually lease from him, because that is important. When the man and his son knocked on his door, he gave them permission to hunt "by the pond" and pointed to the land by his house...which I do not lease. So, in other words and according to him, he never gave them permission to hunt our lease. W_hen I spoke to the son that killed the deer, he corroborated this (which implicates his father as a trespasser and poacher and was a vital piece of evidence for me as I made my decision)_. In other words, the father and son would have every reason to say that the landowner gave them permission on the actual lease, because that would make them look like less of a scumbag. 

However, despite the fact that the landowner was given the run-around by the father and son, he has still offered to lease the land for free next year, which is ultimately what I am going to do. I have talked to a neighbor who I completely trust about upping the security on the farm, and he has agreed to ride a loop around the farm every time he leaves the woods (he is retired and hunts every day...has nothing better to do with his farm) and he stands to gain by me letting deer get age on them. 

The son: doesn't understand what happened, happy he killed the deer, still a victim of his father.

The father: complete dirtbag. Once I showed him all the evidence and what could be done to him he straightened up a bit. He openly admitted to going against what the landowner told him and hunting by the pond on my lease after I showed him the email where I forwarded this pics of him and a written testimony by the landowner describing what had happened...he thought he would simply be able to say "well he said I hunted by the pond and I did" but knows that he isn't going to get away with that story. 

The gamewarden: Wants me to press charges. I have passed along all relevant info to him, including the pics and the name of the father. He is going to keep a "close eye" on the house until I decide what I want to do, as I haven't decided yet. Does he deserve to be taken to court? Yes, no doubt in my mind. Is it the right thing to do? That is hard to say...he is a single father and that would leave his son with his senile grandparents, even if it is just a short amount of time. Do I want that on my hands? I don't know, but my gut says no. 

Is this the update everyone wanted?


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## SNATCH26 (Aug 20, 2012)

Yes this is the update we were looking but I can't get the attachment to open.


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## wingmastr23 (Sep 10, 2010)

Midwestvest said:


> *OFFICIAL UPDATE*
> 
> I will start with the smoking gun:
> View attachment 1803250
> ...


WOW...looks like I got on this thread just in time....lol

I would go with the Warden....what will actually happen? A few days in the clink and a fine?? Perfect! The boy is obviously being misguided by his father anyway....

You want a security person for life? Press charges - that warden will love you for it - and in turn, you can guarantee your property will be in his little "loop" as he drives around...

You can't feel the burden for what others have done - that boy is his dad's responsibility, not yours....let the courts do their job....


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## SNATCH26 (Aug 20, 2012)

Ok, just saw it then. Now how about one of those trail cam pics so we can see what the deer really looks like.


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## RxMeg (May 25, 2013)

Thanks for the update: I wouldn't worry to much about the boys on AT. It's AT. You don't owe anyone anything. Good luck. If it were me(and it's not) I'd be pressing charges. I fine might do that jerk some good.


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## jbra (Mar 21, 2007)

That's a cool photo!


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## DeadEyeB (Aug 23, 2011)

Let it go. It was the landowners fault for allowing them to do that.. the guy asked permission.. Maybe he didn't follow orders to a T, but if the land owner handn't allowed him on his land in the first place it wouldn't have happened. The land owner appears to have learned from his mistake and is trying to make it right.


If you've got one guy that size you've got much more.. One lucky ass kid...


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## gwm (Oct 16, 2008)

How many apologies will be given from the AT brethren now?


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## Midwestvest (Feb 3, 2012)

gwm said:


> How many apologies will be given from the AT brethren now?


I expect nothing, lol.


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## lastcast33 (Mar 8, 2008)

I think your handling it very well and taking the right approach.


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## sticknstring33 (Nov 17, 2008)

I'll eat crow. Thanks for the update OP. It was a very interesting story and it's nice to finally have the final chapter. Any chance in seeing a trail cam pic of the buck on his feet? 187" typicals are pretty darn rare!


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## Executner (Oct 22, 2011)

Prosecute.


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## stanlh (Jul 23, 2010)

JBudz said:


> OP is full of BS!!!!! Begs for some advice, then acts like everyone is a pee on when they want to see a conclusion. He obviously isn't getting the attention at home, and needed to find it elsewhere. Like when my sister had a second kid, and the first one was feeling left out, so he started to crap his pants just to get any kind of attention. This, smells A LOT like that....


Seriously?


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## gwm (Oct 16, 2008)

Midwestvest said:


> I expect nothing, lol.


Neither would I. Some peoples kids!

Good luck with the decision. Personally, single dad or not, I would press charges. He knew what he was doing. He put you and the landowner in a tough spot.


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## stanlh (Jul 23, 2010)

Thanks for the update. You are handling it well whatever you decide. Ignore the screaming children on here.


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## hoosiereric (Aug 28, 2013)

sticknstring33 said:


> I'll eat crow. Thanks for the update OP. It was a very interesting story and it's nice to finally have the final chapter. Any chance in seeing a trail cam pic of the buck on his feet? 187" typicals are pretty darn rare!


X2 for both.


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## Square_Dancer (Nov 12, 2012)

What does it say about a man who leases land from a landowner who willfully allows others to poach deer off the land with impunity?


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## stanlh (Jul 23, 2010)

Crying out loud, read what the op said and don't make up what you think happened.


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## Midwestvest (Feb 3, 2012)

stanlh said:


> Crying out loud, read what the op said and don't make up what you think happened.


Haha, I know man. Just let it roll off, some folks just want to watch the world burn and laugh. Can't do anything about it.


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## nflook765 (Dec 12, 2009)

gwm said:


> How many apologies will be given from the AT brethren now?


None. We still haven't seen any pictures of said 187" buck except part of his left main beam when he was lying dead.


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## Fullstrutter (Jul 8, 2008)

That pic is worthless sir. We have all waited a LONG time to see real legit pics of the deer dead or alive not some pic of part of his rack in the shadows come on bro

Don't be a drama queen trying to get everyone asking you for legit pics just be a decent guy and post them on your own. No need to play it like this. This annoying story has dragged out for way longer than it should have and then you give us 1 POS pic? To be honest it also seems very weak of you to not punish the filthy rat scum poaching father.


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## WVohioFAN (Jun 5, 2011)

After all that, we get one picture that shows nothing. Where are the hundreds of trail cam pics and the hours of video?

Delete this thread.


PS: He got banged in the rear, and smiled while taking it. Just like I said he would.


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## tackscall (Jul 26, 2004)

gcab said:


> My guess is there won't be any pics, and that the OP is actually the father of the kid and is trying to find out what kind of trouble he may be in if the actual lessee does anything now that they found out. Thats my guess


That's fine he should have better pics


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## tackscall (Jul 26, 2004)

If he presses charges won't the DNR take the kids deer? That would be a shame. Consequences I guess from his fathers actions


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## stanlh (Jul 23, 2010)

tackscall said:


> If he presses charges won't the DNR take the kids deer? That would be a shame. Consequences I guess from his fathers actions


Depends on the trespass laws of the state. If the deer was to be determined to be taken illegally there will be liquidated damages. For a trophy deer that can be thousands of dollars.


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## Fullstrutter (Jul 8, 2008)

1 star rating on this weak sauce sh*t


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## shaffer88 (Dec 3, 2007)

Fullstrutter said:


> That pic is worthless sir. We have all waited a LONG time to see real legit pics of the deer dead or alive not some pic of part of his rack in the shadows come on bro
> 
> Don't be a drama queen trying to get everyone asking you for legit pics just be a decent guy and post them on your own. No need to play it like this. This annoying story has dragged out for way longer than it should have and then you give us 1 POS pic? To be honest it also seems very weak of you to not punish the filthy rat scum poaching father.


+1 brother


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## bigbucks170 (Feb 2, 2006)

wow


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## Victory357 (Oct 21, 2012)

At this point I wouldn't post a picture of the deer either. Too much hate in this thread - all it would accomplish is opening himself up to more criticism. 

Just because there are 28 pages of thread doesn't mean you are entitled to a picture. He probably would have been more likely to post one if so many people in here hadn't been foaming at the mouth.


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## jogr (Oct 2, 2010)

Midwestvest said:


> The gamewarden: Wants me to press charges. I have passed along all relevant info to him, including the pics and the name of the father. He is going to keep a "close eye" on the house until I decide what I want to do, as I haven't decided yet. Does he deserve to be taken to court? Yes, no doubt in my mind. Is it the right thing to do? That is hard to say...he is a single father and that would leave his son with his senile grandparents, even if it is just a short amount of time. Do I want that on my hands? I don't know, but my gut says no.


If you don't press charges he will do it again next year. I don't understand your concern about leaving the son with grandparents. The old man certainly won't be thrown in jail for this. You are expecting way too much. He'll get a slap on the hand, a fine, revoke his hunting license for a while and that's it. If he's convicted you may have the opportunity to state your desires for his punishment. At that point you can suggest probation and termination of hunting rights for a looooong time.


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## nicko (Feb 17, 2006)

My suggestion is to press charges and let the chips fall where they may. Guys like this dad get away with this type of behavior because they get slapped on the wrist when they really need the legal equivalent of a punch in the mouth and a foot up their butt. Otherwise, he'll do this type of thing again. If the kids loses the deer, so be it. The kid thinks his dad is showing him the right way to do things but he isn't. 

It's not your fault if the dad gets time. He knew what he was doing and admitted as much.


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## nicko (Feb 17, 2006)

Fullstrutter said:


> That pic is worthless sir. We have all waited a LONG time to see real legit pics of the deer dead or alive not some pic of part of his rack in the shadows come on bro
> 
> Don't be a drama queen trying to get everyone asking you for legit pics just be a decent guy and post them on your own. No need to play it like this. This annoying story has dragged out for way longer than it should have and then you give us 1 POS pic? To be honest it also seems very weak of you to not punish the filthy rat scum poaching father.


Didn't know anybody here was entitled to pics.


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## BowTechForever (Jun 12, 2012)

Pweety pweeetyyy please can we have one picture of the deer!


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## Coon23 (Nov 30, 2006)

Does the Landowner want you to press charges? I would atleast talk to him about that? Love to see trail pic of him though:wink:


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## sekbowmadness (Oct 29, 2011)

nicko said:


> Didn't know anybody here was entitled to pics.


We aren't entitled to pics.... just like nobody has to answer any questions... but he has made a huge deal about this and all we ask is a simple trail can pic or decent pic. Nobody is going to research it enough to steal your lease bro... apparently it is simple land to get on anyways. My deal is 29pages of whining and a crappy pic and still having to debate whether to "do" anything.... Epic thread fail man.... good luck on future endeavours...


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## Big Country (Apr 25, 2003)

First time seeing this thread……and it sure turned out just like I suspected it would.lain:

Ultimately, you will have to make up your own mind Midwestvest.(hope I got your name right after reading so much)

Here is just another opinion from a guy who has leased a ton of property throughout the midwest…….maintain the good relationship with your farmer. I bet he will not let anyone hunt even the non-leased portions of his ground again. I would even go so far as to NOT take next years lease for free…..maybe some discount, but likely not even that. The deer could just as easily been hit by a car, and the landowner did not give the pair permission to hunt your leased ground. Taking the lease for free may sound good, but it will fester in the farmers mind in the long run.

As far as pressing charges on the father……..mixed emotions there because of the son. First, he will likely have the buck taken from him at that point, and the boy seems to be innocent here. That would be hard for me to do. If it were not for the boy, I would suggest pressing charges in a New York minute.

I had a road hunter poach a buck I had on video in west central IL……..he got caught. There is now a 197 7/8" ten point rack at the DNR headquarters in Springfield. 

Anyway, just one more opinion to ponder, and whatever you do, I hope it all works out for you. :thumbs_up


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## Yockhunter24 (Apr 22, 2011)

Midwest, 

If you spent a significant amount of money on the lease, I would seek to recover damages against the landowner. He clearly breached the contract and even admitted to it. You are entitled to recover the price of the lease and whatever expenses you incurred in relying on the lease (gas, food plots, lodging, etc.). Even though you don't need an attorney, it would benefit you to get one. 

As far as the father and son, I really don't think they are too blame. Your contract was with you and the farmer. The farmer was responsible to uphold his end of the bargain. Meaning, he was responsible for telling the father and son they could not hunt on his property. Maybe it was an honest mistake, but you sacrificed a significant amount of time and money to have EXCLUSIVE rights to the property. If it were me, I would want to be compensated for my investment into the property. I realize mistakes happen. But, when a significant amount of your money is involved, the farmer should be more diligent in holding up his end of the lease agreement.


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## Slosir (Sep 18, 2013)

Big Country said:


> First time seeing this thread……and it sure turned out just like I suspected it would.lain:
> 
> Ultimately, you will have to make up your own mind Midwestvest.(hope I got your name right after reading so much)
> 
> ...


Well said.


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## gwm (Oct 16, 2008)

victory357 said:


> at this point i wouldn't post a picture of the deer either. Too much hate in this thread - all it would accomplish is opening himself up to more criticism.
> 
> Just because there are 28 pages of thread doesn't mean you are entitled to a picture. He probably would have been more likely to post one if so many people in here hadn't been foaming at the mouth.


x2.


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## gwm (Oct 16, 2008)

Big Country said:


> First time seeing this thread……and it sure turned out just like I suspected it would.lain:
> 
> Ultimately, you will have to make up your own mind Midwestvest.(hope I got your name right after reading so much)
> 
> ...


I agree with this. It would be tough.

OP, maybe another option is to have the father pay the landowner the cost of the yearly lease instead of pressing charges. The father pays the price, the landowner recoups the money you would of paid, you maintain your lease and the kid keeps the deer. Just a thought.


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## Varmintwade (Jun 17, 2012)

Let it pass..........................and write up a new contract which states "if the landowner EVER gives permission to any one to hunt anything, you will have the hunting privileges for the next 20 years free" and make him sign it!


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## mmafan (Feb 17, 2012)

do you have another place to hunt?????????if not just eat it...and it was a child


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## NYSBowman (Aug 21, 2012)

Press charges....and the game warden will love you and will "watch your back" while your away.

DON'T press charges...and don't plan on the warden ever helping you again.

It's no different that when a cop comes to a domestic dispute and the victim doesnt press charges. LEOs don't appreciate being called out....and then not allowed to arrest the offender.


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## stanlh (Jul 23, 2010)

Yockhunter24 said:


> Midwest,
> 
> If you spent a significant amount of money on the lease, I would seek to recover damages against the landowner. He clearly breached the contract and even admitted to it. You are entitled to recover the price of the lease and whatever expenses you incurred in relying on the lease (gas, food plots, lodging, etc.). Even though you don't need an attorney, it would benefit you to get one.
> 
> As far as the father and son, I really don't think they are too blame. Your contract was with you and the farmer. The farmer was responsible to uphold his end of the bargain. Meaning, he was responsible for telling the father and son they could not hunt on his property. Maybe it was an honest mistake, but you sacrificed a significant amount of time and money to have EXCLUSIVE rights to the property. If it were me, I would want to be compensated for my investment into the property. I realize mistakes happen. But, when a significant amount of your money is involved, the farmer should be more diligent in holding up his end of the lease agreement.


Read from post 693 on.


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## Yockhunter24 (Apr 22, 2011)

stanlh said:


> Read from post 693 on.


Thanks for catching me up Stanlh! Im glad the farmer has decided to let you lease the property next year.


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## jamesbalog (Dec 14, 2009)

If it were me I would press charges. First off the father deserves it, if you are feeling bad for the kid... Dont. It would probably be better for the kid in the long run to realize what happened was wrong rather than just getting away with it.

Also its already been mentioned but the game warden factor is another reason to press charges. He will always be there for you if you do and likely not help in the future if you dont.

As for pics of the deer, id like to see them just because a 187in typical is a monster. I dont feel that you need to show anyone though


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## turkeyhunter60 (Apr 19, 2010)

I still call BS on this worthless Soap Opera Thread.......The OP is taking you for a ride, tries too keep you sucked in.......Especially with the picture with half a rack...


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## Beefcake (Jan 22, 2013)

turkeyhunter60 said:


> I still call BS on this worthless Soap Opera Thread.......The OP is taking you for a ride, tries too keep you sucked in.......Especially with the picture with half a rack...


Lol


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## Reelrydor (Jan 5, 2010)

Beefcake said:


> Lol


I think everyone got suckered in, and it keeps getting better,---


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## Beefcake (Jan 22, 2013)

Reelrydor said:


> I think everyone got suckered in, and it keeps getting better,---


I really don't have time to read it all but I see stuff like that all the time... like the op is a verbose, talented writer and everyone believes the story because it's well told but they don't stop to wonder, "what are the chances of this really happening?"


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## Bucks (Jul 27, 2005)

if you press charges...
- impact on father: loses face with kid, will have a nice fine, revoked hunting, no way he will do jail time
- impact on kid: will learn the highly valuable lesson of ramifications, losing deer may be a good thing since it was achieved through deceit

if you do not press charges...
- impact on father: he learned he can get away with something with a high probability of repeating
- impact on son: daddy is smarter than everyone else, its ok to cheat
- the warden will never help you again

granted, you are not their ethics police


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## Square_Dancer (Nov 12, 2012)

turkeyhunter60 said:


> I still call BS on this worthless Soap Opera Thread.......The OP is taking you for a ride, tries too keep you sucked in.......Especially with the picture with half a rack...


Good post, BIG FRANK!


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## gcab (Mar 24, 2010)

I still say the OP is the father and has been fishing for what kind of trouble could get into based on responses here.


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## Lowlevlflyer (Aug 2, 2011)

Square_Dancer said:


> Sorry, but If I'm leasing 5,000 acres of farmland from you and you decide to dumb thousands of gallons of 2,4-D on all my crops, consequently wiping them all out, your ass is gonna get sued into an oblivion, regardless if you're the landowner.
> 
> I don't think you understand how land leases work.


No sir, I know EXACTLY how leases work... I've had hunting leases for several years, and I grew up in a farming family, having quite a few acres leased in addition to what we owned. SUING someone for violating a lease agreement is a CIVIL court matter, and would be perfectly acceptable in this case. Had you actually taken time to READ what I posted, you'd have seen I was referring to the poster's comment about the deer being "poached", because it was shot on the lease, which is in NO WAY correct. Poaching is a CRIMINAL offense... totally different scenario. Try a little reading comprehension next time.


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## Lowlevlflyer (Aug 2, 2011)

Ulitmately it looks like to me it's just a question of do you want to spend the time on going to court on the case for what's probably going to amount to nothing more than a fine and a slap on the wrist, because I seriously doubt from what you've said that it would amount to anything more than that. Glad you got some resolve out of it.


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## Babyk (Jul 5, 2011)

BS thread


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## DeadEyeB (Aug 23, 2011)

Lowlevlflyer said:


> Ulitmately it looks like to me it's just a question of do you want to spend the time on going to court on the case for what's probably going to amount to nothing more than a fine and a slap on the wrist, because I seriously doubt from what you've said that it would amount to anything more than that. Glad you got some resolve out of it.


exactly this.. big waste of time IMO.. 


The land owner LITERALLY GRANTED PERMISSION to be on his property.. he said very loosely "over by the pond" 

A) the guy asked for permission in the first place so it's not like it was his original intent to poach
B) he let his kid shoot this insane buck which mean it's not him that wanted to kill a record breaker.. 

He doesn't sound like that much of a dirt bag to me. 

The land owner on the other hand is.. he screwed you on your own lease. If you want justice I'd take it out on him the guy you have the contract with. Let him fight the supposed poacher who ASKED PERMISSION TO BE ON THE LAND.


Huge waste of time all the way round... shrug it off and move on with your life.


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## Square_Dancer (Nov 12, 2012)

Lowlevlflyer said:


> No sir, I know EXACTLY how leases work... I've had hunting leases for several years, and I grew up in a farming family, having quite a few acres leased in addition to what we owned. SUING someone for violating a lease agreement is a CIVIL court matter, and would be perfectly acceptable in this case. Had you actually taken time to READ what I posted, you'd have seen I was referring to the poster's comment about the deer being "poached", because it was shot on the lease, which is in NO WAY correct. Poaching is a CRIMINAL offense... totally different scenario. Try a little reading comprehension next time.


Maliciously dumping thousands of gallons of herbicide onto 5,000 acres of crops is a criminal offense as well. 
Legally the supposed giant deer (it's probably a 140 8 point at best) was poached. Whether you believe this constitutes actual poaching is irrelevant.
That's the funny thing about laws. They're written and passed by the Legislature, interpreted by the Judiciary, and enforced by the Executive, but laws are never what you want them to be when you want them to be.


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## Matte (Oct 4, 2006)

Give us a Google earth shot.

Farmer granted permission to hunt by the pond. How close was the pond to the lease and is the lease marked by signs or fences? Farmer made no mistake here he stated where to hunt. So now it falls on the father and his poor navigational skills. 2 counts of misdemeanor tress pass is all that will come out of this most likely as the farmer nor yourself are considered the owners of wildlife. A judge/prosecutor would be very hard pressed to take this to court due to the circumstances of the ground how it was marked and what was said between the dad and farmer. That is why it is up to you to press trespass charges. If it was a true case of poaching the warden will not wait for you as it would already be out of your hands. Good luck I hope it will all work out in the end.


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## crawdad (Jul 21, 2008)

Bucks said:


> if you press charges...
> - impact on father: loses face with kid, will have a nice fine, revoked hunting, no way he will do jail time
> - impact on kid: will learn the highly valuable lesson of ramifications, losing deer may be a good thing since it was achieved through deceit
> 
> ...


I agree with Bucks. Thanks for the follow up Midwestvest. As for some of these posts, Wow. Name calling, vicious made up theories about the OP, everyone mad that he was busy hunting during F'ing Deer Season. Sad.

By the way, pretty sure if you lease hunting rights to your land, you can't even hunt it yourself unless the contract is written that way - let alone give permission for others to do so. You have pocketed the money for the hunting rights. They are not yours any more.


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## readonly (Nov 20, 2008)

Absolutely press charges. If the buck is taken from the boy, which it doesn't necessarily need to be as the father is the criminal, then he will learn a valuable lesson about cheating in life.

Very rarely do you get all the evidence lined up against a poacher. You have it apparently, so hold him to task.

If the farmer is innocent, I would not be accepting a free lease from him. That is making him pay for the other guys dishonestly, while letting the criminal go. Prosecute him!!!


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## nicko (Feb 17, 2006)

Midwestvest said:


> *OFFICIAL UPDATE*
> 
> ...............
> 
> ...


Press charges.


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## stanlh (Jul 23, 2010)

DeadEyeB said:


> exactly this.. big waste of time IMO..
> 
> 
> The land owner LITERALLY GRANTED PERMISSION to be on his property.. he said very loosely "over by the pond"
> ...


Read, or reread as the case may be, post no. 693 and see if you still agree with what you wrote.


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## goathollow (Jun 18, 2008)

Midwest:

Well done, you handled this with civility and decorum. The outcome for you (the buck is dead and it isn't coming back to life) is as good as you could really expect. I frankly don't know what I would do from this point with respect to the dirt bag father. I sure wouldn't want the boy to lose the deer which seems likely if you press charges. If it gets confiscated it probably would be destroyed. At the same time, I think I would want the father to learn a lesson; and in doing so maybe the boy would learn right from wrong as well. I hope this all works in the end.


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## Toonces (Dec 16, 2008)

Guess I am confused as to why the warden needs the OP to "Press Charges"? If the warden wants prosecute he doesn't need OP's permission to do it.


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## 55esox (Dec 2, 2007)

I would press charges for no other reason but to let the locals know you aren't screwing around. If you let this guy slide, word will travel around and I think you will be fighting an uphill battle regarding trespassers. I didn't read through all the threads, but it seems like you live a fair distance away. Even if you are an hour away, you are not a local, and they know it.

Screw it, let it play out in the courts.


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## stanlh (Jul 23, 2010)

Toonces said:


> Guess I am confused as to why the warden needs the OP to "Press Charges"? If the warden wants prosecute he doesn't need OP's permission to do it.


If it is a trespassing charge that has to come from the landowner or likely in this case the lease holder.


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## raptor3bd (Nov 8, 2013)

Midwestvest said:


> Let me add this to the equation...I really think it is a lapse in judgement even though it is a pretty big one. I am not looking to leave this farm but think something needs to come out of it. What % reimbursement are we talking about? The landowner even knew that this was our target deer this year...was familiar with it, etc. Said "his heart sunk" when he saw it and knew he had messed up bad.


I think you should get a free year out of it. Like another has posted, that kid is on cloud nine and probably hooked on hunting now for the rest of his life (in the asset column if you get my drift). On the other hand, you paid for exclusive rights and the landowner KNOWS what he did was a big mistake. See if he'll give you next year free.


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## Kstigall (Feb 24, 2004)

After reading what actually happened I would not take a free year on the hunting lease. An entire year free is too much to ask of the farmer. You don't wnat the farmer to resent that you took an entire years rent.

It is extraordinarily rare to catch anyone trespassing here so if it was on our land I would have to press charges against the father if the county attorney wants to press charges. I would take the advice of those with more professional legal prosecution experience. 

Around here if you get a chance to prosecute a dirt bag you better do it. More than once we have been taken advantage of. I have told everyone in our area that I am no longer pulling punches and have the game warden, local sheriff (of two counties) and state police in my phone. The next person I see I will not approach but rather I'm making the call.......


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## KYBowhunter (Nov 22, 2005)

I'm not saying this is or isn't legit. However there are multiple trail camera photos of said deer yet all we get is a night shot from 20 yards away showing half a rack sticking out of the grass.


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## terryu80 (May 16, 2012)

jrmsoccer32 said:


> be the bigger person it's just a deer. You made some kid the happiest hunter alive. Maybe ask for a monetary reimbursement but don't blow it out of proportion. That's awful it sucks but there's nothing you can do now except be happy for the kid.


completely agree!


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## alancac98 (Jan 22, 2012)

Big Country said:


> First time seeing this thread……and it sure turned out just like I suspected it would.lain:
> 
> Ultimately, you will have to make up your own mind Midwestvest.(hope I got your name right after reading so much)
> 
> ...


How sure are we that the boy is the one who actually pulled the trigger. Too many times, adults use the youth hunts and the mentoring programs as a means to "hunt". I know many that do, not saying the kid didn't shoot the deer. If you speak to the kid, you would know within a minute whether he shot it, or Dad shot it! I'd decide then what to do, but I would most definitely speak to them about the situation, as well as, the farmer.


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## Lost Sheep (Oct 24, 2013)

OP, no trail cam pic? Why not?


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## crawdad (Jul 21, 2008)

Well, did you decide what to do? Very curious to know how this turns out.


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## Mapes (Feb 17, 2008)

Sorry but killing a deer isnt the worse possible situation. The kid falling to his death maybe, but killing a deer? No


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## FearTheReaper (Nov 13, 2013)

First off, don't be to upset at the child. That's a young hunters dream is to kill a big buck. Congrats to him. 


Now I would be concerned for future of him breaking agreements... This is a touchy situation. Good luck man I have no clue what I would do.


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## Baldona523 (Feb 12, 2010)

Trespassers are hard to catch and you caught one, I would definitely press chargers. The dirtbag has already laughed at you, don't let him keep laughing. Most likely the charges are not severe and just loss of hunting rights and a small fines.


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## krabbiepatty (Feb 8, 2007)

tell the boy's father to pay the farmer for your lease next year and you won't press charges. you get a year free, the farmer isn't out any money, little kid gets to keep his deer and the father bears some responsibilty for what happened.


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## goathollow (Jun 18, 2008)

krabbiepatty said:


> tell the boy's father to pay the farmer for your lease next year and you won't press charges. you get a year free, the farmer isn't out any money, little kid gets to keep his deer and the father bears some responsibilty for what happened.


Now there is a constructive idea!!


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## jogr (Oct 2, 2010)

krabbiepatty said:


> tell the boy's father to pay the farmer for your lease next year and you won't press charges. you get a year free, the farmer isn't out any money, little kid gets to keep his deer and the father bears some responsibilty for what happened.


So the father will take his kid there every year figuring if he shoots a good deer he'll pay the lease fee, if not then he hunts free. I wish I could get a lease deal like that.


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## Square_Dancer (Nov 12, 2012)

krabbiepatty said:


> tell the boy's father to pay the farmer for your lease next year and you won't press charges. you get a year free, the farmer isn't out any money, little kid gets to keep his deer and the father bears some responsibilty for what happened.


The father will just ask to hunt the land because now he's technically paying the lease.


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## stanlh (Jul 23, 2010)

Square_Dancer said:


> The father will just ask to hunt the land because now he's technically paying the lease.


No he wont, his stupid name will not be on the lease and the real lease holder will tell the father if he does this again next time he goes to jail for trespassing. Of course after all this the farmer is not gong to give the father any kind of permission again.


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## krabbiepatty (Feb 8, 2007)

jogr said:


> So the father will take his kid there every year figuring if he shoots a good deer he'll pay the lease fee, if not then he hunts free. I wish I could get a lease deal like that.


there really isn't a good solution i was just trying to offer something constructive...bad situation any way you look at it.


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## Square_Dancer (Nov 12, 2012)

stanlh said:


> No he wont, his stupid name will not be on the lease and the real lease holder will tell the father if he does this again next time he goes to jail for trespassing. Of course after all this the farmer is not gong to give the father any kind of permission again.


Don't take legal advise from this guy


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## Victory357 (Oct 21, 2012)

die thread die


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## Kb83 (Dec 17, 2011)

To all of you saying prosecute the father. How would you feel if part of that prosecution involved confiscation of the animal from the young man? Would you feel like justice was served by taking it away from him? Just something to think about. If I could be assured that the kid would retain possession of the trophy I would prosecute the dad. I don't know if I could feel very good about doing that if I knew the kid would lose his buck. I can't see the positive of breaking a 11 year old kids heart over the stupidity of the father.


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## WVohioFAN (Jun 5, 2011)

Please stop bumping this garbage thread.


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## derrinx (Sep 4, 2013)

Bump


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## WVohioFAN (Jun 5, 2011)

derrinx said:


> Bump


:cheers:


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## derrinx (Sep 4, 2013)

Sorry had to. For the record I completely agree with you


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## Square_Dancer (Nov 12, 2012)

Kb83 said:


> To all of you saying prosecute the father. How would you feel if part of that prosecution involved confiscation of the animal from the young man? Would you feel like justice was served by taking it away from him? Just something to think about. If I could be assured that the kid would retain possession of the trophy I would prosecute the dad. I don't know if I could feel very good about doing that if I knew the kid would lose his buck. I can't see the positive of breaking a 11 year old kids heart over the stupidity of the father.


Seriously? "Think of the children's feelings!" has got to be the most pathetic excuse for inaction and a defense against change.


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## BigDeer (Aug 9, 2005)

that night time picture puts them on the lease? They could be anywhere


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## Kb83 (Dec 17, 2011)

Square_Dancer said:


> Seriously? "Think of the children's feelings!" has got to be the most pathetic excuse for inaction and a defense against change.


I have my opinions and you have yours. Yes, I would not feel right taking the kids buck from him. We all have decisions we have to live with. I just had a kid steal from me. The prosecutor wanted to charge him with a felony. Being as he was a young kid in high school we settled on a plea. The kid gets a little jail time, pays restitution, probation, and all jail is on the weekends so he can graduate high school. You have to live with the choices you make as do I. Easy to talk a big game when the results do not effect you.


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## stanlh (Jul 23, 2010)

Square_Dancer said:


> Don't take legal advise from this guy


Ok smart guy what is your legal advice. How does 'technically paying for the lease' give the father any rights if he is not the lease holder and the real lease holders name, the OP, is on the contract?


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## ohiobow (Jul 22, 2009)

was a picture of the buck ever posted?


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## jdhunter11 (Jan 25, 2012)

Too much to read. Anybody got a synopsis (pics included)????


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## miklacic (Sep 17, 2013)

Page 28


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## ohiobow (Jul 22, 2009)

that's kind of a crappy pic after all the "world class buck" talk he was saying pages 1-5 lol


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## FL-HNT-N-FSH (Dec 4, 2004)

This is the easiest thing in the world. Press charges! The landowner does not owe you because he did not make a mistake. The dirtbag father is at fault and deserves what he gets. Stop being a softy and grow a pair. The kid will learn a lesson by watching the idiot father of his get in trouble and if you do not press charges he will continue to do this crap.


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## HuntinFreak (Jan 26, 2005)

ohiobow said:


> that's kind of a crappy pic after all the "world class buck" talk he was saying pages 1-5 lol


I don't think the OP and the shooter(s) are that tight, probably lucky to get this one.


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## WVohioFAN (Jun 5, 2011)

HuntinFreak said:


> I don't think the OP and the shooter(s) are that tight, probably lucky to get this one.


The OP says he has "thousands of pics and hours of video" of this deer. Plus, the pics supposedly came from his cam, not the shooter's. This thread is the biggest joke in AT history but people will continue to send it to the top.


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## Buxndiverdux (Oct 19, 2008)

I would let the GWarden do his thing. Maybe you can save the kid from being a dirtbag in the process.


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## AR&BOW (May 24, 2009)

Kstigall said:


> After reading what actually happened I would not take a free year on the hunting lease. An entire year free is too much to ask of the farmer. You don't wnat the farmer to resent that you took an entire years rent.
> 
> It is extraordinarily rare to catch anyone trespassing here so if it was on our land I would have to press charges against the father if the county attorney wants to press charges. I would take the advice of those with more professional legal prosecution experience.
> 
> Around here if you get a chance to prosecute a dirt bag you better do it. More than once we have been taken advantage of. I have told everyone in our area that I am no longer pulling punches and have the game warden, local sheriff (of two counties) and state police in my phone. The next person I see I will not approach but rather I'm making the call.......


Agree 100%. The farmer sounds like a great guy and one you want to keep as a friend. Not sure if I would want any discount, but I would prosecute without any hesitation.


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## Jwillman6 (Jun 4, 2007)

Tough situation, only you can decide how you want to approach this. Personally I think it is great to let some youth hunt your land during youth season, but you had the exclusive hunting lease. He should have asked you, but at least he told you. Only you can decide how to proceed from here. You can ask for your money back and he should give you your money back, but he does not have to lease the land again to you in the future.


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## HuntinFreak (Jan 26, 2005)

WVohioFAN said:


> The OP says he has "thousands of pics and hours of video" of this deer. Plus, the pics supposedly came from his cam, not the shooter's. This thread is the biggest joke in AT history but people will continue to send it to the top.


Oh that's right! I forgot about that.


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## danpshack (Jul 10, 2009)

OP, he let someone hunt your lease that you paid thousands for...imagine how many guys that will be there when he's giving it to you for free....


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## StringMusic16 (Dec 5, 2010)

I just read this thread from start to finish..... Good stuff.

I would say, and is obvious from your meeting, that the father is the one to blame here. He obviously knew what he was doing was wrong and the old man and the father's son were pawns and you were the victim. Press charges, make an example of the father. Otherwise, he knows that he can get away from stuff like that. That attitude could also leak down to his son in the future. I understand your confusion/struggle with the ethics in this matter, however. I just think you need to stand up for yourself.


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## willphish4food (Nov 3, 2007)

Midwestvest said:


> Let me add this to the equation...I really think it is a lapse in judgement even though it is a pretty big one. I am not looking to leave this farm but think something needs to come out of it. What % reimbursement are we talking about? The landowner even knew that this was our target deer this year...was familiar with it, etc. Said "his heart sunk" when he saw it and knew he had messed up bad.


So would he not have messed up (in his mind) if the kid hunted and just shot any old deer? Knowing that there were drag marks and gut pile in the field where you may discover them may have made him "do the right thing" and fess up to you. Just saying; he really might be a stand up guy. Straight up, though, you have EXCLUSIVE hunt privilege on his land. He signed away his right to make a decision whether or not to allow someone else to hunt there; you are the only one, as the sole allowed hunter, to make that call. If he had wanted to do the right thing, he'd have told the man this; that he had signed an exclusive contract, was paid for it, and could not break his agreement. Man and kid would be happy. 

Being the devious sort that I am, I wonder how much money he was offered to "Make this mistake." If it were me, knowing I had passed this deer for two years to enable him to achieve the trophy potential he had this year, I would think reimbursement for the last two years and this years' lease payments would be fair. Presenting this to the farmer, and wanting to continue a working relationship with him, I would ask to take this reimbursement in the form of a lease extension of three years. This way no money is lost on his part, and you get to continue hunting there, and the point that he really screwed up is driven home without causing too much pain.


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## crawdad (Jul 21, 2008)

I think some of you must have skipped a few pages, which I can understand. The landowner only gave permission for the POS father to hunt on his property that was NOT part of the lease. I believe they were completely separate parcels. Said POS decided to go to the lease and there he killed the buck. Or maybe the kid actually did. The landowner was taken advantage of and should also want to press charges.

If the kid loses his buck, so what? What, otherwise he would learn to be an ethical hunter because his stinking, thieving dad stole from a hunter who had invested thousands of dollars and countless hours to have a great place to hunt? As it stands, the kid gets to show off a giant buck that was served up to him on a silver platter. A much better buck than most honest hunters will ever get to chase.

Kb83, I think you made the right call on the kid that stole from you- don't make it ruin his life. But taking away a buck that was obtained in such a Sleazy manner from this kid would not ruin his life. It would help him.


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## Olydog (Sep 1, 2010)

Disappointment


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## ONEiiSHOTiiDROP (Oct 18, 2007)

bump lol


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## nodog (Mar 1, 2005)

Midwestvest said:


> Let me add this to the equation...I really think it is a lapse in judgement even though it is a pretty big one. I am not looking to leave this farm but think something needs to come out of it. What % reimbursement are we talking about? The landowner even knew that this was our target deer this year...was familiar with it, etc. Said "his heart sunk" when he saw it and knew he had messed up bad.


doesn't sound like there was any "lapse" in judgement to me. Sounds like there was a deliberate break in a contract, but it doesn't sound like you had any stipulations in the contract for breach of contract by either party. Ask what you want, but your contract allows for nothing to be done.


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## nodog (Mar 1, 2005)

stanlh said:


> Ok smart guy what is your legal advice. How does 'technically paying for the lease' give the father any rights if he is not the lease holder and the real lease holders name, the OP, is on the contract?


a contract is only as good as it's wording. Ever get a loan at a bank, how many places and documents did you sign? Wonder why? All these leases that go on have a ring of legality but aren't worth the paper their written on. The land owner knows you want the place so they won't say anything more than they have too and pushed will just back out, the hunter knows this and thinks just enough cash will get the land owner to sign something, but neither do what's needed to make the contract binding if pushed either way.

Bottom line here is a guy just came on here saying he leases a property that holds "world class" animals. Someone with deeper pockets will be talking to the farmer and he'll listen since cash is their king. The Stan Potts of the world are already knocking with bags of money.


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