# Does higher holding weight really matter on a limb stop bow?



## pwyrick (Feb 13, 2011)

I changed to an Obsession Phoenix XL last December. It's a limb stop bow with 80% let off. I can shorten the valley and increase holding weight without much trouble, and I am capable of getting the draw length back my original. But since I already get into the wall hard and shoot with strong back pressure, should I notice any difference in my holding pattern with increased holding weight?
This is the time of year when I work on form changes and equipment tweaks in order to make improvements for next year. I've been with the bow long enough to understand it quite well. So now is the time for me to consider increasing holding weight. In your experience with a limb stop bow, is there an expected advantage, or will I be wasting my time?
The little reluctance that I have in moving ahead is that I'm shooting really well. I've been known to follow the philosophy, "If it ain't broke, we'll break it." I wouldn't mind avoid breaking things, if that's all that I'm getting ready to do.


----------



## Mahly (Dec 18, 2002)

Yes, and no.
You can use the limb stops to set your holding weight, but doing that very consistently is the hard part.
IMO using the limb stops to set your holding weight is difficult at best, a crutch at the worst.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## pwyrick (Feb 13, 2011)

Agreed that it is hard to get an exact weight adjusting limb stops. Getting close to 18-20lbs is doable. Getting exact, probably not. I'm currently at 12. Can you say more about "a crutch at worst"?


----------



## bigHUN (Feb 5, 2006)

No, the limb stops are there for most folks to learn what is their DL....pulling into that "wall" is a ballpark, it is not consistent especially if not fully trained the muscle memory for the best DL.
You can have any holding weight even on 80% cam modules regardless of the peak DW but you must play with the cam timing either with some sort of modules or twisting the ratio on cables/string.
Adjusting the cam timing in front of the valley can give you the holding weight you planning to use, a draw table is a must. You need to play with that a little bit to feel what is your comfort level. So, mark the cams where is your DL, remove the stops, adjust the cables/strings, when you got to your target holding weight then just fine tune back the DL.

I figure for myself that a custom string/cables combination is a better help, but again my 3 track cam OK bows are the easiest possible to tune and tweak and tune and tweak....
I like the holding weight about #22 - 23 and I have #57 on my FITA/Field bow and #52 on my indoor bow. 
I also adjusted the limb stops that I am barely touching the wall at my fully locked BT DL.


----------



## pwyrick (Feb 13, 2011)

I know how to twist cables/strings to get back to my desired DL and have the draw board, etc to get everything right. Increasing holding weight is basically shortening the valley on my bow.. Question: is there real value in increasing the holding weight. bigHun, it sounds like you think so. 
Calling it a night. I'll follow up tomorrow.


----------



## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

I have had limb stop bows since the summer of 2010. First was with Martin's Cat, Nitro and Hybrix 80% let off cams and the with Pearson's R2B2 (80% let off) and Legend 85% let off cams. None of these have been set for max let off. I set draw length a bit long and then use the draw stops to give the draw length that I desire. Using back tension keeps me on the wall without undue stress. Too short of draw length and one can get into the wall too hard and too hard is asking for the shakes to come. Too long of draw length and you can't stay on the wall..... I also have set draw modules that have been ground that give 88% let off. I set draw length a bit long with the cables and strings and then adjusted the draw stops to put me right at my desired draw length which give something of 80% or less let off. 
Limb stop bows are not what you call "user friendly" using back tension to fire a hinge. Limb stops don't give like cable stops and seeming this give allows that little movement for true back tension. All 3 of my Pearson draw stop bows allows me true back tension to fire a hinge, but then because I'm right at my draw length.

The Martin cams...The valley of these cams were like dropping off a cliff and then hitting rock hard ground. Setting the draw stop gave the drop off into the valley a much friendlier feel and not the sudden slam into the wall.

Some one had a graph for cables bows for let off and holding weight, let off being less and holding weight more. With limb stops, no give, holding weight can climb dramatically.


----------



## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

Let off and holding weight. I forgot the Pearson LMS cams. These are small like cams with large draw modules. Deceiving are these cams. Set to give 85% lef off these bows send a arrow out of the bow like a jet. Let off is there, but the slightest creep and the bow is taking off. I went with a 1/2" longer draw modules, used a bit of string twisting and then the draw stops to finalize the draw length. ASA Senior Pro Tim Yocum helped with this. I had just got this bow done when I had the accident. I didn't get to check let off. Not wanting a new bow set for the year or more that I was said to be laid up I sold the bow.


----------



## pwyrick (Feb 13, 2011)

Thanks Sonny. My plan is to do as you've done: increase draw length and reset it by shortening the valley. I guess the worst thing that can happen is to try it and not get the results that I want. Then, put it back the way it was. Cam sync and timing on the Phoenix XL is easy and straight forward. Not too much hassle.


----------



## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

Haven't messed with or even seen a Phoenix or Phoenix XL. The Pearson Legend cams (modules) have the timing right out in the open. You can fine tune the cams with a feeler gage if you wanted. You can do the same once the bow is timed with setting the dual limb stops. Time it and then back off the draw board and use a feeler gage between the modules and cables to set the draw stops. One, this can allow for O-ring compression and then whatever amount of valley/draw length you desire. On Tim's draw board and the bigger O-rings we could gage compression or like the Martin cams, the rubber cap and the pad used on the limb (only had the one limb draw stop). Smaller O-rings are tedious to measure, but can be done. Now having my own draw board I can play with strings, timing and draw stops all I wish.


----------



## bigHUN (Feb 5, 2006)

As you can see you can set the bow DL in two places with a same holding weight, one is in front of the valley the other is beyond (this one is touching the wall). Now, if you chose the second point for your holding weight just to let you know that aprox.1" doesn't do any benefits to the speed, because.....the cam turning speed is slowing down in the valley and only on the slope can start accelerating again...
I don't like the hard back wall, I like a little give on cable stops and I tune for creeping @50M all the way down to half twist on cables either too much.

The following are some scenarios I was playing with my bows whenever any new arrived to my door. I have several cable/string sets if I ran out of twists on a stock cables. 
I have large cams and mediums on the bows, the third option=small cams never tried, those would be a bit aggressive for my back because I am shooting large volumes.
We can see on these charts how much the cam timing alters=moves the powerstroke:

























Right now my four bows are like this:

#46 DW have a holding weight #20
#52 DW have a HW #22 (the above two have somewhere about 55-54% letoff)
#57 DW have a HW #23
#65 DW have a HW #22

I set my DL as to lock my (release arm) shoulder muscle and have a little bit (maybe 1/4") extra length in my bow arm, this one is slightly bent, I don't like a bon-on-bone straight bow arm. Also have always ready couple feets of d-loop to adjust the bow DL to my liking. 
Also, me hating a lot talking a brute=imaginary DL, I know the true DL (string to grip at full draw) is an exact number, my FITA bow is set for 27.1" and the Field bow is 27.0" (this one because of the up/downhill shots).


----------



## pwyrick (Feb 13, 2011)

This morning, I took a little out of the valley and increased my holding weight from approx. 12lbs to 19lbs. The most notable difference was not the HW but the shortened valley. Less valley forced more focus on staying strong into the wall. I shot approx. 70 arrows (20 on 3d and the rest warming up and finishing on a 3 spot target). I got just lazy enough on 5 shots to get pulled some. The other 65 broke well with a very tight pin float. My conclusion is that in a few weeks, this will improve my overall shooting. I can't prove this, but I think the lower HL was allowing me to get a little soft without letting me know (by jerking my arm off). The higher HL or shorter valley lets me know immediately. 
Interesting graffs. Not sure what my draw curve looks like. I hear good things about the OK bows. I'm now waiting for Obsession's double shoot through system bow, the Final Cut.


----------



## bigHUN (Feb 5, 2006)

you made a right chose getting a shot through cables bow, you will see how much easier is working anything with it. We buy bows to play the archery game and not to be a mechanic all the time
also I would suggest trying out the benefits of cable stops, some people don't like it but I assume they didn't spent enough time justifying the difference vs hard limb stops


----------



## nochance (Nov 27, 2008)

pwyrick said:


> This morning, I took a little out of the valley and increased my holding weight from approx. 12lbs to 19lbs. The most notable difference was not the HW but the shortened valley. Less valley forced more focus on staying strong into the wall. I shot approx. 70 arrows (20 on 3d and the rest warming up and finishing on a 3 spot target). I got just lazy enough on 5 shots to get pulled some. The other 65 broke well with a very tight pin float. My conclusion is that in a few weeks, this will improve my overall shooting.


Been having similar results. Have the draw stops on my 28" Victory all the way in(shortest draw lengh) my hold\float feels much steadier but the bow really wants to go. Measured the holding weight today and it was ~22lbs. Tried putting the large O-rings(Red) on the stops and it seams to have a little more of a valley but still high holding weight. Time will tell.


----------



## pwyrick (Feb 13, 2011)

bigHUN said:


> you made a right chose getting a shot through cables bow, you will see how much easier is working anything with it. We buy bows to play the archery game and not to be a mechanic all the time
> also I would suggest trying out the benefits of cable stops, some people don't like it but I assume they didn't spent enough time justifying the difference vs hard limb stops


The Final Cut should be very easy to get the way I want it. I've shot cable stops and actually prefer the limb stops. My float is a bit twitchier but smaller with limb stops. If I go a little longer on the DL the float gets smoother but larger. So, I ignore the twitch.


----------



## pwyrick (Feb 13, 2011)

I've shot 4 sessions with increased holding weight. Now back to my original question. In theory, I don't think increased HW should matter at all on a limb stop bow. In actuality, it is making a big difference. I am getting a more consistent shot: smaller float, smaller group, more consistent break on the shot. My conclusion is that I am being forced into a more consistent load on my back. In theory, I should be able to do this on my own. But many of us have had the experience of thinking how strong we are into the wall, only to be yanked forward the next moment. In actuality, lower HL lets me be inconsistent in my pre-load.
Final thought: I hope this isn't like having a new putter. I'll know in a few weeks.


----------



## stromdidilly (Jan 8, 2014)

I don't think it will be. I decreased the holding weight to see what would happen and my float opened way up. IMO, as long as your DL is correct, the higher weight will 100% force you to be more consistent in your pre load and shot

Sent from my LG-K428 using Tapatalk


----------



## dillio67 (Oct 1, 2004)

I like my holding weight on my 65# about 16-18# for the best float I can get. the difference for me is Its easier to accomplish with limb stops. Simply put it in my draw machine crank till I hit targeted weight and set the stops.
The biggest difference is for me with the limb stop you hit a positive stop. With say a Hoyt and a cable stop if I am not set in my release right and just pulling the cable gives, the shot goes off and typically its a high shot.With a positive limb stop my sight picture will start to move letting me know my release is not rotating or with a thumb I am not on the trigger enough. I just feel I have more control.
With bows set with a high letoff you will notice much more float and any grip tension is easily magnified....this is where I think the lower letoff shines


----------

