# K50-PRO's



## boilerfarmer12 (Nov 22, 2011)

been listening to bow junky eh?

i can see the side to both points. I agree with bow junky that their checks should not be as big but I honestly think known yardage is where 3D is heading.


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## 573mms (Jan 23, 2014)

I have shot 3d since before 3d targets, and we shot 2d foam targets. If 3d is heading to known distance its heading the wrong way!!!


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## boilerfarmer12 (Nov 22, 2011)

i have always shot unknown as well (since 2003 when I started at 13) but I think the known yardage is gonna grow. the open pro class is shrinking and the marked classes in amateur are getting bigger.


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## arrowblaster (Feb 9, 2004)

573mms said:


> I have shot 3d since before 3d targets, and we shot 2d foam targets. If 3d is heading to known distance its heading the wrong way!!!


Agreed!! That's all part of the 3d. If you want to shoot known yardage, shoot indoors. jmo


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## jimg (Apr 17, 2004)

573mms said:


> I have shot 3d since before 3d targets, and we shot 2d foam targets. If 3d is heading to known distance its heading the wrong way!!!




Been shooting 3d for 20 yrs ,,, I have won a shoot or two. I disagree. I think known yardage is the way to go
3d started as a way to be a better bow hunter. I do not go in the woods without a rangefinder when I am hunting now ,,,so why not in 3d??

The better shooter will win no matter if it is known yardage or unknown
Look at the pro scores now. They already know how far it is. Look at their 12 count

A better example is the open b shooters in asa. The ones winning are shooting the better scores on sat and on sun combined


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## tmorelli (Jul 31, 2005)

The pros are pros for a reason. Open pro is dying for a reason too. 

Like it or not, known distance is the future of this game. If you don't like it, I'd suggest that you do something about it.....

Support your local club. 
Take time to teach some guys to judge.
Lobby the orgs and mfrs for cheaper and better and possibly standardized targets.

Its not about k50 shooters being as good or better than the pros. And rather than just saying its about "growing" the sport... I might say its about preserving or saving it.


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## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

Everyone wants the change the game of the open pros because they cant win on that level. It simple and honestly the true facts. 

Open pros have worked there butts off to get the point of there game where it is. It not easy being Pro. 

Lots of know Pro archery to shoot and anyone can go shoot it anytime. 

When K50 the only pro game around and entry fee $250.00 to go shoot against Levi and some of the top pros will see how many still talk about shooting Pro class.

Im thinking next everyone will want an orange dot placed on the target to aim at as well. That way no one has unfair advantage that so many talk about.
DB


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## tmorelli (Jul 31, 2005)

Dan, who is doing what about the decline of participants in Open Pro?


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## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

tmorelli said:


> Dan, who is doing what about the decline of participants in Open Pro?


What are you going to do about the facts no one what to shoot against the Top Pros? There that good and apparently many realize they cant win against them so let change the game as we all have known it that been around for many years. So let open up another pro class where hopefully some can have a chance to win. Maybe eventually we can many pro class's for everyone to be called a pro. Other wise let penalize the guys who have promoted and dedicated there lives to shooting and becoming pros for ASA for being that good.
DB


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## boilerfarmer12 (Nov 22, 2011)

I agree with what was said on Bow Junky Pro Known would be for blue collar working guys that just do not have the time to shoot full time and be able to practice yardage judging all the time. 

Look at the top pros: Levi, shooting/hunting is his job (no problem to me), Gillingham works for GoldTip/BStinger, shoots all the time. Chance, shoots all the time.... they should win all the time because thats what they do for a living.


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## tmorelli (Jul 31, 2005)

Daniel Boone said:


> What are you going to do about the facts no one what to shoot against the Top Pros? There that good and apparently many realize they cant win against them so let change the game as we all have known it that been around for many years. So let open up another pro class where hopefully some can have a chance to win. Maybe eventually we can many pro class's for everyone to be called a pro.
> DB



Whose responsibility is it to keep open pro from going the way of limited pro? 

This seems like evidence of evolution in our game more than anything. 

You know you are preaching the choir with me. I have national wins in both known and unknown 3d. I have been buying targets so that I can reinforce my judging so I can take that next step.... But I'm not sure there will be a relevant Open Pro class to shoot in when I get there in a couple years.....which is why I'm posing the questions and pointing out what I believe to be the issues.


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## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

boilerfarmer12 said:


> I agree with what was said on Bow Junky Pro Known would be for blue collar working guys that just do not have the time to shoot full time and be able to practice yardage judging all the time.
> 
> Look at the top pros: Levi, shooting/hunting is his job (no problem to me), Gillingham works for GoldTip/BStinger, shoots all the time. Chance, shoots all the time....


So let penalize those guys because they have done what it takes to be the best at something! 
DB


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## tmorelli (Jul 31, 2005)

Daniel Boone said:


> So let penalize those guys because they have done what it takes to be the best at something!
> DB


Nobody is proposing to penalize them.


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## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

tmorelli said:


> Whose responsibility is it to keep open pro from going the way of limited pro?
> 
> This seems like evidence of evolution in our game more than anything.
> 
> You know you are preaching the choir with me. I have national wins in both known and unknown 3d. I have been buying targets so that I can reinforce my judging so I can take that next step.... But I'm not sure there will be a relevant Open Pro class to shoot in when I get there in a couple years.....which is why I'm posing the questions and pointing out what I believe to be the issues.


As long as manufacturers put the contingency money in the class there will be a pro class. Thats what shooting pro is all about the money. Some keep talking about a working class pro. I could make up plenty of pro class names.
DB


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## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

tmorelli said:


> Nobody is proposing to penalize them.


Manufactuers will not support two pro class's IMO, there only so much money to put forward to pro class. The K50 was tried like that in the beginning.
DB


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## tmorelli (Jul 31, 2005)

Daniel Boone said:


> As long as manufacturers put the contingency money in the class there will be a pro class. Thats what shooting pro is all about the money. Some keep talking about a working class pro. I could make up plenty of pro class names.
> DB


How long is that going to last? What direction have those checks been heading in? When do we wake up to the mfrs saying "it just doesn't have marketing value any more"?.... 

Can you honestly say you aren't surprised they are still paying at IBO?


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## rohpenguins (Dec 2, 2012)

I fail to see the point in 2 Separate pro classes.


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## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

tmorelli said:


> How long is that going to last? What direction have those checks been heading in? When do we wake up to the mfrs saying "it just doesn't have marketing value any more"?....
> 
> Can you honestly say you aren't surprised they are still paying at IBO?


When the manufactures stop we wont be discussing this! It could happen. They got plenty of known and support it already in other assc's.
DB


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## boilerfarmer12 (Nov 22, 2011)

tmorelli said:


> How long is that going to last? What direction have those checks been heading in? When do we wake up to the mfrs saying "it just doesn't have marketing value any more"?....
> 
> Can you honestly say you aren't surprised they are still paying at IBO?


I would say the way I have heard IBO is going, Regions will take their contingencies.


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## 573mms (Jan 23, 2014)

K50 shooters are not pro's, far from it!!! If you can't judge yardage you are not much of a 3d shooter at all, should stick to openc or open b were you belong!!!


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## boilerfarmer12 (Nov 22, 2011)

Daniel Boone said:


> So let penalize those guys because they have done what it takes to be the best at something!
> DB


I am not completely disagreeing with you but why could someone not be the best at known 3D? The sport is not as pure as it used to be anyways these days. Gone are the days of bringing your hunting bow to shoot hunter class (mostly). The bows today shoot so fast yardage is not as critical as it once was. Do I think that there is a place for known Pro yes. That is the way the sport is going. The known classes in the amateur and youth are the biggest classes out there. most people hunt with rangefinders these days. so in all honesty if they want to make 3D like it was intended when it started, to help hunters practice for hunting, then they should allow the use of rangefinders as many, many hunters use them.


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## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

boilerfarmer12 said:


> I am not completely disagreeing with you but why could someone not be the best at known 3D? The sport is not as pure as it used to be anyways these days. Gone are the days of bringing your hunting bow to shoot hunter class (mostly). The bows today shoot so fast yardage is not as critical as it once was. Do I think that there is a place for known Pro yes. That is the way the sport is going. The known classes in the amateur and youth are the biggest classes out there. most people hunt with rangefinders these days. so in all honesty if they want to make 3D like it was intended when it started, to help hunters practice for hunting, then they should allow the use of rangefinders as many, many hunters use them.



I think that's what ASA as done is trying to test the game to see if its the direction it will go in the future. I certainly understand why someone who winning in open pro feels the game (unmarked) they grew to be the best in is being challenge to change. 
DB


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## boilerfarmer12 (Nov 22, 2011)

I still think being in open pro would have more prestige with it. but with the pace of the world today how many people are gonna have the time to commit to practicing yardage all the time?


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## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

boilerfarmer12 said:


> I still think being in open pro would have more prestige with it. but with the pace of the world today how many people are gonna have the time to commit to practicing yardage all the time?


It just like any sport. Not easy being a pro on any level ASA, NFAA. Only a few will ever stand on a podium in a pro class at any major archery event where money is at stake. 
DB


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## boilerfarmer12 (Nov 22, 2011)

I guess I agree but with the K Pro class, I think the people you brought up (NFAA and USA Archery pros) would be much more likely to crossover and help grow 3D.


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## tmorelli (Jul 31, 2005)

573mms said:


> K50 shooters are not pro's, far from it!!! If you can't judge yardage you are not much of a 3d shooter at all, should stick to openc or open b were you belong!!!


Anonymity is much of what's wrong with AT. 

What's your name?


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## panther08 (Jan 7, 2008)

Since I started shooting 3-d I felt that known was a joke but since I have started to dedicate more time to learning how to shoot better And less time judging I'm going to make the move to known myself. As a farmer feeding y'all I don't have the time to work on numbers so what time I have I work on form. So I'm for a known pro class because I still have a chance to reach my goal of becoming a pro and still farm over 3000 acres.


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

573mms said:


> I have a question, probably not going to go over very well but the only way to find out is ask right! Do you consider the K50 guys pro's, like the open pro's? Their has been lots of threads on here about growing the class, them not getting the recognition they desirve, weather its no shoot off like the pro's or the money difference. So what do you think are the K50 guy's on the same level as the open pro's? I'm not nocking their shooting abilty at all they are excellent shots, but we are talking about a 3d shoot. I don't believe their should be any known classes on a 3d course, I no some people are going to say its for people that don't have time to judge yardage. But its 3d that's half the job, right


Complainers and Whiners... ??? Bowjunky. I hear or see what people post of it. A couple didn't care for Bowjunky being first to relate of ASA doings. A couple didn't care of Bowjunky's drug article. And now this K50 thing. "Squashed" was used in the ASA forums....

Open Pros; ASA side.
Open Pros are Pros for a reason, they're damned good at doing what they are doing, judging and being accurate... If a reason for decline in numbers, perhaps the upper half of Pros that have been there so long.... I mean, Jeff is still to be reckoned with and Levi on top and both have more SOY Awards than all others put together. That's along time for two people to be reigning champions...

I have followed along for some time and just recently PMed with another of my thoughts and findings again for this year with this; At least 50% of all Pros on the bottom half of the score sheet are there 100% of the time. Average number of Pros per National stood around 45 to 47. So half the Pros are on the losing end all the time. This is awfully hard to justify remaining a Pro.....

Still early in the season, 3 events in, the average is up 2 for 49 Pros per event, but still the score sheets shows the same pattern, 50% of all Pros half way down the score sheet there 100% of the time. Yes, there are fluctuations, a Pro down but having his day and get to the top ten or even placing.
I'm retired now, but figured up what it what cost me to be Pro; $275 entry fee plus whatever side events, so maybe over $300.00. Travel expenses; Gas, motel, eats and whatever and loss of time at work....When working I was Grade IV Machinist, so figure possibly Thursday, Friday and Saturday was time and one-half.. So roll back a bit and maybe a cost/loss total of $800 per weekend....

For Pros there are benefits that offset costs....Paid this and that.... How many benefit, I don't know...Can we say half?

K50 Shooters not getting recognition? Well, they ain't on the level of Open Pros, are they? K50 has always been known started for a reason, to grab a bit of the spot shooter crowd and it hasn't...so far. 
K50 may be the thing to increase Pros in the future. tmorelli and Daniel Boone related of this.

Known yardage levels the field a bit, but who wants to lock horns with the Greats? Sure we would, but would when win? Doubtful, but we'd have a bit more of a chance when distance id known...Look at Vegas, Louisville, Lancaster and known doesn't level the field, not if comparing to 3D, but the top "rungs" change a bit.

Say K50 takes hold, is the game of 3D games. The cream of the crop surfaces. They will not garner the recognition held by those who shoot unknown now and of the past. Granted, many of the present Top will cross over very easily. Regardless, the unknown distance Pros will always be noted as Greats and the now and future Known distance shooters as....as what?

tomorelli noted the future of 3D being Unknown distance. He didn't go far enough. 3D will be the future of bow hunters. Hunting land is disappearing, leases, Outfitters, outrageous fees for hunting deer, they are ruining of the future of bow hunting. I can tell of bunch on the subject, but leave it with this; I sell my 31 acre home site out in the country, I'm done hunting.


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## perdieu2011 (May 16, 2011)

573mms said:


> K50 shooters are not pro's, far from it!!! If you can't judge yardage you are not much of a 3d shooter at all, should stick to openc or open b were you belong!!!


I would say most of the guys in K50 have won their way out of the other classes?? You think they would let us shoot open C at the next one??


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## shooter74 (Jul 7, 2005)

573mms said:


> I have a question, probably not going to go over very well but the only way to find out is ask right! Do you consider the K50 guys pro's, like the open pro's? Their has been lots of threads on here about growing the class, them not getting the recognition they desirve, weather its no shoot off like the pro's or the money difference. So what do you think are the K50 guy's on the same level as the open pro's? I'm not nocking their shooting abilty at all they are excellent shots, but we are talking about a 3d shoot. I don't believe their should be any known classes on a 3d course, I no some people are going to say its for people that don't have time to judge yardage. But its 3d that's half the job, right


And what class do you shoot in. since you started this thread


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## Bowhunter163 (Sep 25, 2012)

573mms said:


> K50 shooters are not pro's, far from it!!! If you can't judge yardage you are not much of a 3d shooter at all, should stick to openc or open b were you belong!!!


So do you think if you knew the yardage on a 50 yard range you could consistently shoot 30 to 40 up ? You do realize if these guys dropped down to open C they would get kicked out in one tournament . Lol saying these guys can't judge yardage is ridiculous . Have you ever thought that maybe they have won there way out of judging classes and instead of going to Open pro where you have to judge every target pretty much perfect or you have wasted your money , they would rather shoot K50 where they can't blame anything but themselves if they don't win some money ? 

I'm nowhere near being pro or on a K50 level . But even I can figure out that shooting 30-40 up on a 50 yard course even if you know the yardage takes a heck of a shooter. You still have to make the shot , and you still have to hit the spot you can't see . 

I look up to those guys shooting K50 like Sam , Calvin , Keith trail, Perdieu, Daniel , and all the others . And I only hope one day I can shoot as good as those guys .

What class are shooting ? Just out of curiosity?


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## STRICNINE (Oct 22, 2012)

573mms said:


> K50 shooters are not pro's, far from it!!! If you can't judge yardage you are not much of a 3d shooter at all, should stick to openc or open b were you belong!!!


Then step into K50 and find out 

On a seperate note, what's going to be tough, in regards to adding contingency money etc., is that so many archers already go out and buy shooter shirts, hats, etc with company logos all over them, many folks are walking billboards. If I am a large company, why would I put more money into contingency when I am reaping the rewards of getting paid to advertise?

I want to see K50 grow just as much as all of us who are in the class, but from a financial perspective what does a company gain by paying out more money when they are in essence getting paid for free advertisement?


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## Lazarus (Sep 19, 2005)

There is a known distance game already out there. It's called NFAA Field. It's where the Pro's of known distance should be recognized for their outstanding abilities. But unfortunately the NFAA is a dead/dying organization with no interest in reviving the best known distance game to ever exist. 

This comment, ^, may seem kind of off topic, but I don't believe it is. What is the point in growing a known distance game that already exists except for the fact that the targets are 1d instead of 3d? And, in Field you actually shoot arrows, 4 per target, 112 per 28.

My apologies if you think this is off topic. I don't believe it is in reality.


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## tmorelli (Jul 31, 2005)

Lazarus, you answered your own question. Have you tried finding a field shoot worth attending in ASA geography?.... There might be one per year....and there is no money on the line.


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## Lazarus (Sep 19, 2005)

tmorelli, Agreed! Completely! And I am convinced that is the reason that the K50 even exists. There are many people who would just rather shoot arrows than stand around watching people glass targets and guess yardages. Furthermore, and this is the comical part, in the NFAA Field hayday the biggest complaint was this; how can pro's be expected to shoot a target that if they miss by a quarter inch one way they could lose the entire tournament (on the animal round) but miss by a quarter inch the other way they could win. 

What I'm getting at here is this; if the ASA is the leading organization they need to just recognize that there is a group of Pro's that are precision shooters, not yardage guessers. And, if the NFAA want's to sit in the cultural archery mecca of the world (Yankton, SD) and let their game die, let them. If the ASA has enough people that want to shoot known, they should put together a known round that doesn't depend on just shooting rubber deer. That could possibly attract those who like to "shoot" instead of guess yardages of targets with sometimes inconsistent scoring lines. .02


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## Gerard18 (Jan 1, 2013)

So I have read every post on here about the why or why not's with he K50.my thoughts are and will be always the same. Ifs it easy,its not worth the prize.
I just got into archery,bow hunting last year to get my son involved in the outdoors in warmer weather.with that being said,I got hit by the 3d bug and used a rangefinder in some shoots and by choice not to in others.obviously,my scores were higher with he rangefinder then without.i have not entered a competitive tournament yet but maybe this summer.
I work 60/70 hour a week and don't have time to judge yardage just like most on here.but what I do is take my rangefinder with me where I go. At work or play.when I'm pouring concrete and have time to judge a tree,bench in the park,1st,2nd and 3rd base's are at or that car that's 4 car lengths ahead of me at the stoplight I judge it.my point here is this,if you truly want to be the best at either sport you are in you just need to make time to get better.excuse's are for those not willing to put in the time to get better.JMO!!!!if not then except that you just have to shoot in a lower class.
By the way,I have 3 kids in sports so I don't have time either.


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## Bowhunter163 (Sep 25, 2012)

Gerard18 said:


> So I have read every post on here about the why or why not's with he K50.my thoughts are and will be always the same. Ifs it easy,its not worth the prize.
> I just got into archery,bow hunting last year to get my son involved in the outdoors in warmer weather.with that being said,I got hit by the 3d bug and used a rangefinder in some shoots and by choice not to in others.obviously,my scores were higher with he rangefinder then without.i have not entered a competitive tournament yet but maybe this summer.
> I work 60/70 hour a week and don't have time to judge yardage just like most on here.but what I do is take my rangefinder with me where I go. At work or play.when I'm pouring concrete and have time to judge a tree,bench in the park,1st,2nd and 3rd base's are at or that car that's 4 car lengths ahead of me at the stoplight I judge it.my point here is this,if you truly want to be the best at either sport you are in you just need to make time to get better.excuse's are for those not willing to put in the time to get better.JMO!!!!if not then except that you just have to shoot in a lower class.
> By the way,I have 3 kids in sports so I don't have time either.


I hear what your saying , but read your next to last sentence . Most of the guys in K50 Have won out of every lower class and have to shoot semi, open pro, or known 50 . I'm not saying your judging skills are in question , but regarding the classes I just listed the judging is on a different level .


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## tmorelli (Jul 31, 2005)

K50 is "easy and not worth the prize".

smh


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## Bowhunter163 (Sep 25, 2012)

tmorelli said:


> K50 is "easy and not worth the prize".
> 
> smh


 wasn't gonna say anything about that one . Lol Says its easy and admitted to never shooting in a competitive tournament in the same post .


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## Lazarus (Sep 19, 2005)

Bowhunter163 said:


> wasn't gonna say anything about that one . Lol Says its easy and admitted to never shooting in a competitive tournament in the same post .


AT.........:darkbeer:


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

Yeah, kind of off topic, but it isn't that the NFAA gave up or is in decline. It's that people no longer wish to shoot Field. Die hard spot shooters kept the NFAA from embracing 3D. If they had, as large as the NFAA was, ASA and IBO would be a distance 2nd and 3rd instead of the leaders they are today...


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## Lazarus (Sep 19, 2005)

Sonny. I don't disagree with anything you said except this, people no longer wish to shoot field. I don't believe that's the case at all. There's just no place to do it. There needs to be an organization that can put archery's biggest challenge (fragmentation) aside and emerge as a leader. This is a perfect opportunity for the ASA to do so.


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## 573mms (Jan 23, 2014)

I am not saying K50 is not a hard class to win andI already said that they are exellent shooters. The point I was trying to make is it is 3d!! In a 3d shoot to me anyway you have 2 jobs to do guess yardage and execute a good shot, every body, me, you, everbody has a topping out point. No matter what class you top out in thats fine as long as you are doing your best and having fun, not everybody is going to be a pro! The pro's are exellent at both yardage and executing the perfect shot that's why they are were they are! Just seems to me that if you are only good in half the game(executing the shot) and are getting topped out in your ability, say in open a or what ever class it is. To jump into a known class and throw half of the sport of 3d away (yardage guessing) just so you can jump around all the shooters that are better at 3d then you and then call yourself a pro seems wrong.


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## TAYLOR CO. (Jun 9, 2005)

573mms said:


> I am not saying K50 is not a hard class to win andI already said that they are exellent shooters. The point I was trying to make is it is 3d!! In a 3d shoot to me anyway you have 2 jobs to do guess yardage and execute a good shot, every body, me, you, everbody has a topping out point. No matter what class you top out in thats fine as long as you are doing your best and having fun, not everybody is going to be a pro! The pro's are exellent at both yardage and executing the perfect shot that's why they are were they are! Just seems to me that if you are only good in half the game(executing the shot) and are getting topped out in your ability, say in open a or what ever class it is. To jump into a known class and throw half of the sport of 3d away (yardage guessing) just so you can jump around all the shooters that are better at 3d then you and then call yourself a pro seems wrong.


You are certainly entitled to your own opinion. But I shoot K45, cause no#1 I don't have the time and money to own the targets to do the necessary judging it takes to compete in Unmarked or OpenA. I am trying to become a better shooter, not judger. Atleast, not at this juncture.
Tmorelli and others that are shooting K50 have shot their way out of all of those classes. And most of them are using K50 as a stepping stone to get to Open Pro. I'd challenge anyone to try K50 and see how they fare with those guys. They can flat out shoot!! 3d is not for hunting, it's a target sport. If it was, then we'll throw away magnification on sights and might as well get rid of binos...
The future is Known classes..JMO


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## Kstigall (Feb 24, 2004)

Maybe there will be a Pro Known one day....... BUT simply changing the current K50 to "Pro" is a mistake and actually a foolish idea. I know the Open Pro's would like to take the money that is growing in K50 and I know there are a "hand full" of K50 guys that want to be labeled a "Pro" and garner the benefits that comes with the "label". They want to shoot against the Open Pro's but ONLY in their game of Known distance. 

BUT the fact is right now it's not a good idea. The reason I say this is that K45 is hugely popular and growing every day. For folks_ currently _winning out of K45 to move to K50, Semi-Pro or Open A requires a _major _step up! It is big step up in _shooting_ skills from K45 to K50 and the entry fee goes to $125 (semi-pro price). To make K50 "Pro" and to schedule the shooting times to accommodate the current Open Pro's and to increase the entry fee to the Pro rate ($250?) would be building a bigger wall for future archers to climb. Maybe some 3D'ers want to choke off Known distance 3D. 

It will never be a good idea to simply change K50 to Pro. K50 must be a "semi-pro" class or even an Open A type class. When the numbers have built up then a Pro Known distance class can be created. Having shooters going from K45 straight to "Pro" is simply too big of a leap. A lot of archers will _never_ be able to make that leap so where will they land?.........too many won't land on any ASA platform. If you require those wining out of K45 to shoot K50 Pro it would be like requiring Open B winners to jump to Open Pro. I bet not many of the Open B winners would jump into paying a "Open Pro" entry fee. Let us not forget that if you shoot a Pro class in ASA you must shoot Pro in the NFAA and the IBO. K50 must remain a basic step up from K45, though in reality going from K45 to K50 is more of jump up than a step up.

I will not be paying a $250 entry fee to shoot K50 and expect I never will. Though I would like to shoot K50 and be at least somewhat competitive not everyone has "delusions of grandeur" about one day being a fully sponsored "Pro shooter". Now if there was a "Senior Pro Known" class I might hop on that platform......change that, I would definitely shoot "Senior Pro Known". I feel confident saying making K50 a true Pro class would be detrimental to known distance 3D. Maybe that is what those that are against the current K50 class want. The more I think about it the more I wonder if some folks "ideas" are noble or simply a way for them to keep things from changing or to benefit themselves NOW. It sure seems some folks recent the growth of Known distance 3D which I understand.

If I were the ASA I'd do what the numbers told me to do. From what I see that would be to run with Known 3d and not do things to turn archers away from becoming ASA members. I'd take dozens of K45 and K50 members over a handful of K50 members. The Unknown distance 3D'ers have a solid structure of levels with a solid number of participants. I doubt that will much change any time soon. Who knows 10 years from now unknown distance 3D may again be the growing classes.


Assuming the number of participants supports it what is wrong with having the following? 
Know distance classes- Known C (40 yard), Known B (45 yard), Known A (50 yard), Known Semi-Pro (60 yard?) and/or Pro Known (60 yard?)
Unknown distance classes- Open C, Open B, Open A, Semi-Pro and Pro

If the numbers aren't there to have two classes you make a class "half and half" like Open B is currently. I'm not so sure Open C shouldn't be "half and half".
Right now "Pro Known" would not have the numbers and to force it would hurt the ASA.


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## carlosii (Feb 25, 2007)

K50 vs. Pros at Texas ain't gonna happen. Official ASA announcement.


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## cnmodaw (Aug 3, 2008)

You guys are missing the whole point of why making k50 be a pro class. They are trying to grow this sport to much bigger then what it is! I have mad respect for the open pro shooters as well as the k50 top shooters! Do you think the best k50 think they are a better "3d'er" than the best open pro shooter? Of course not. But by making a known pro class, will "hopefully" grow the sport!

Why doesn't reo, Braden, cousins (who use to shoot a lot of 3d) and several more "spot" shooters come and shoot 3d? Because they don't want to donate $250 plus traveling fees to Levi, Tim, or Jeff. They don't spend the time they do on judging yardage. But give them a known pro class, where they can put in their $250, and know they have a chance at winning with larger contingency checks, you will bring many more spot shooters into the 3d circuit. There ar dozens if not more nfaa pros that have nothing to do after indoor season is over. Put together this pro class, with the chance at making some good money....bingo! You now grow this sport. There doesn't need to be as much money in the known pro as open pro in terms of contingency, but why not target those "spot" shooters that would like to get into the 3d game. Maybe then they will decide they want to convert and work on their judging skills to try and take on Levi. 

I'm tired of all these people who think it's going to take away from the talent that the top open pro shooters do. It's not, they will still be known as the best overall. But why not take an opportunity like this, where people are interested in building up this class and build the sport! Heck, make it more interesting and have be a k60 class to add to the difficulty. Either way, support the growth of this sport, rather then trying to tear down any opportunity it has at being much bigger than what it already is.


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## Kstigall (Feb 24, 2004)

cnmodaw said:


> You guys are missing the whole point of why making k50 be a pro class. They are trying to grow this sport to much bigger then what it is! I have mad respect for the open pro shooters as well as the k50 top shooters! Do you think the best k50 think they are a better "3d'er" than the best open pro shooter? Of course not. But by making a known pro class, will "hopefully" grow the sport!
> 
> Why doesn't reo, Braden, cousins (who use to shoot a lot of 3d) and several more "spot" shooters come and shoot 3d? Because they don't want to donate $250 plus traveling fees to Levi, Tim, or Jeff. They don't spend the time they do on judging yardage. But give them a known pro class, where they can put in their $250, and know they have a chance at winning with larger contingency checks, you will bring many more spot shooters into the 3d circuit. There ar dozens if not more nfaa pros that have nothing to do after indoor season is over. Put together this pro class, with the chance at making some good money....bingo! You now grow this sport. There doesn't need to be as much money in the known pro as open pro in terms of contingency, but why not target those "spot" shooters that would like to get into the 3d game. Maybe then they will decide they want to convert and work on their judging skills to try and take on Levi.
> 
> I'm tired of all these people who think it's going to take away from the talent that the top open pro shooters do. It's not, they will still be known as the best overall. But why not take an opportunity like this, where people are interested in building up this class and build the sport! Heck, make it more interesting and have be a k60 class to add to the difficulty. Either way, support the growth of this sport, rather then trying to tear down any opportunity it has at being much bigger than what it already is.


A big reason the big time spot shooters aren't shooting K50 is because they don't want to spend the time or don't have the time to commit to 3D even known distance 3D.

If you made K50 a "Pro" class you would occasionally have a big time spot shooter or two show up. BUT every time you would have many aspiring known distance 3d shooters avoiding paying the Pro entry fee and also being labeled a Pro by ALL archery orgs. Over time some of the current Open Pro's would convert to shooting Pro Known but that is a wash with no net gain in "Pro" archers. K45 is a very large class I can't see where making the next "step" a huge leap to "Pro" would help grow archery.

The contingency money is an off shoot of the popularity of a style of archery and not simply because a privately owned business labels a class "Pro".


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## IL CSS Shooter (Jan 12, 2007)

here is my take on this whole thing. I am nobody so take what you will from this. There is a place in our 3-D game (although it is a different game than what we were raised on) for known distance shooting. with that being said I think there will be a decline in unkown yardage classes participation in the future. Bare with me here. people saying the top pros do it for a living you are correct. but these guys have been shooting unkown yardage out to fifty yards since they were in youth classes and that is how they have become the excellent archers they are today in unknown distance. now take the kids of today having the heros they have. They start in jr eagle all known then to eagle and sr eagle half and half. then up to youth and young adult still half. so if they are not learning well enough to judge when they leave there they will more than likely go to open c still not judging. win out of that class they go K45 and win out there they will go to K50. I understand people do not have the time to spend like the pros because they are blue collar working class folks. but with that being said are we shooting archery for the love of the sport or you shooting to make a living at it? Now there is nothing wrong with trying to win alittle money help with the costs of the weekend. I know with a family of 3 shooting for several years it can cost alot. If you want to be a open pro put in the work like these folk have. As far as a known pro class I think it is great as long as it doesn't take away money from the regular pro classes. the archery product companies are not a endless well of contingency monies. I guess what I am trying to say if you want to be one of the best do the work you know you have to and get it done. I just worry for the future of our great sport if the young ones coming up relay to much on a range finder the sport will willow away from what it was. Not trying to tell anyone how to shoot just a few of my thoughts. Like I said I am nobody just a concerned archer. Wish you all the best in your future endeavors in the greats sport in the world.


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## Garceau (Sep 3, 2010)

Kstigall said:


> A big reason the big time spot shooters aren't shooting K50 is because they don't want to spend the time or don't have the time to commit to 3D even known distance 3D.
> 
> If you made K50 a "Pro" class you would occasionally have a big time spot shooter or two show up. BUT every time you would have many aspiring known distance 3d shooters avoiding paying the Pro entry fee and also being labeled a Pro by ALL archery orgs. Over time some of the current Open Pro's would convert to shooting Pro Known but that is a wash with no net gain in "Pro" archers. K45 is a very large class I can't see where making the next "step" a huge leap to "Pro" would help grow archery.
> 
> The contingency money is an off shoot of the popularity of a style of archery and not simply because a privately owned business labels a class "Pro".


Put enough money on the line, they will committ to it, it is there living after all - then the class grows.


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

Lazarus said:


> Sonny. I don't disagree with anything you said except this, people no longer wish to shoot field. I don't believe that's the case at all. There's just no place to do it. There needs to be an organization that can put archery's biggest challenge (fragmentation) aside and emerge as a leader. This is a perfect opportunity for the ASA to do so.


Well, I can't agree with your assessment. Our club, rated 4 star with only a 14 Field course. Do you understand the start system? Well kept course, flag, kid's playground, Concessions, ease of access and so on... They wanted us to host a Field shoot. Field course all cleaned up, distance blocks cleaned and repainted. New distance plates put up. All ready and 8 people showed up. The want of another Field shoot and a promise of "better." 5 showed up.... Quess what our club did... We had to move and as "we'll show you" the entire field range was put to the bulldozer... At our new location there is not a Field and more likely will never been a Field range.
Another club. Nice 14 Field course. Spring Opener came. I was the only one that showed up. Another club, 1 of 3 or 4 full 28 Field course in the State of Illinois. Field shoots put on every month and qualified shooters to help those new to Field. 25 was the best turn out in two years of trying. You can't support a 28 Field course with a average of 20 shooters.... This once consider great 28 Field course is now in decline, used by only members to fling arrows. I doubt very seriously this club will ever again host another state sanctioned Field event. And to ward off possible new incoming Officers a ruling was put forth...No 3D moneys to be used to repair/upgrade the Field course. This happened once, Spot shooter Officers taking power and robbing the 3D moneys to upgrade the Field course. Taking money from 3D to pay for repairs and replacement of target bales all but broke the club. As a result, no money to replace 3D targets and attendance began suffering. To this day this club has poor 3D attendance and at one time standing in line shooter waiting to sign up for 3D... Yeah, bite the hand that feeds you and you'll suffer.....


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## n2bows (May 21, 2002)

573mms said:


> I have shot 3d since before 3d targets, and we shot 2d foam targets. If 3d is heading to known distance its heading the wrong way!!!


I too have shoot 3D since befor 3D targets, (started shooting in the late 80's) And I believe known distance 3D is the right direction.


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## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

carlosii said:


> K50 vs. Pros at Texas ain't gonna happen. Official ASA announcement.


What a shame. I for one was sure wanting to see this happen. I know the few open pros I talk about it with were all for it. It will never be a pro class unless you have the top archers in 3d shooting it. 
DB


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## tmorelli (Jul 31, 2005)

Daniel Boone said:


> What a shame. I for one was sure wanting to see this happen. I know the few open pros I talk about it with were all for it. It will never be a pro class unless you have the top archers in 3d shooting it.
> DB


And they won't as long as the manufacturers ignore it..... and we've arrived where we started....full circle....chicken/egg.....etc


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## WhitBri (Jan 30, 2007)

The real problem with 3d and all of archery is money. Many will never compete in a pro class as they see they have no chance to bet the Levi's and Reos. Ok how do we get them to compete? Money. We need to make the sport recognized and make it some Pepsi, Chevy, and other non archery sponsors can put up money for. If 20th place in open pro won 1000 more people would sign up. Changing the name or rules for the pro class will not grow anything because there are a handful of true pros that will win 80% of all the pro money


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## Garceau (Sep 3, 2010)

I hoped they at least shot saturday afternoon but not sunday. Then nothing would/could have been taken aware from any of the K50 regulars. But having at least 20 targets would have shown at least on that one day where people played out.


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## cnmodaw (Aug 3, 2008)

Kstigall said:


> A big reason the big time spot shooters aren't shooting K50 is because they don't want to spend the time or don't have the time to commit to 3D even known distance 3D.
> 
> If you made K50 a "Pro" class you would occasionally have a big time spot shooter or two show up. BUT every time you would have many aspiring known distance 3d shooters avoiding paying the Pro entry fee and also being labeled a Pro by ALL archery orgs. Over time some of the current Open Pro's would convert to shooting Pro Known but that is a wash with no net gain in "Pro" archers. K45 is a very large class I can't see where making the next "step" a huge leap to "Pro" would help grow archery.
> 
> The contingency money is an off shoot of the popularity of a style of archery and not simply because a privately owned business labels a class "Pro".


I see where your coming from. But these shooters go where the money is and where they can win. If they feel they can compete in 3d and win a great chunk of change, they will start showing up.


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## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

tmorelli said:


> And they won't as long as the manufacturers ignore it..... and we've arrived where we started....full circle....chicken/egg.....etc


Who knows what will happen in the future! Manufactuers will make the difference in if it a pro class or amatuer for sure. Wont be surprised if a sponsor steps up and support the class. 
DB


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## Kstigall (Feb 24, 2004)

I'm not knocking the Open Pro's but not all of them would walk all over some of the K50 guys on a challenging Known distance course. Just look at how the Pro 3D'ers do in spot shoots. I know it's a different game. Transitioning from aiming at a spot face to a small "area" on different 3D targets takes some mental gymnastics to have a solid shot execution. That is another reason you don't see world class "spotties" slogging around poking foam.


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## Kstigall (Feb 24, 2004)

I for one believe "Known" can grow a nice money class (Pro) by building steps up to that level and not by just saying K50 is now "Pro". I know some of the K50 guys aren't wanting to wait 5 or 6 years for a "Pro Known" class but that is most likely what needs to happen..... Grow from the bottom up and not from the top down.

Open Pro grew from a lot of archers shooting every weekend at many local clubs scattered through out the country. It did not suddenly appear and then folks began shooting recreational 3D. 

Sure if a philanthropist put up a big bundle of money interest would jump but that's more like winning the lottery than growing archery.


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

Here's off the ASA Forums. It wasn't put down, but give for a reason;

"Per Mike, due to range capacity and competitive balance issues the Open Pros WILL NOT be shooting the K-50 class in Texas. However, the LimbSaver will be available for shooting."


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## McCann (Feb 27, 2005)

As I read through this thread and ll of the "this known stuff ain't 3D" malarky I have to say that I keep hearing all of the old school field shooters that i have met through the years in the back of my head. Before anyone jumps on what i am about to say understand that i am in the process of rebuilding a full 28 target Field Course at my club... 

Field archery in my area is a dinosaur.

Why? because those who supposedly love the game have killed it by not allowing it to grow and change. THE DIEHARD FIELD SHOOTER HAS KILLED FIELD ARCHERY! by not allowing the game to evolve it has died! I hear all of this jabber about NOT 3D! NOT THIS NOT THAT! IMO you are putting 3D on to the exact same course as field.


As for the sponsorship debate...

The fact is available sponsorships are out there, but , some are currently outside of the game or on the fringes of the game. Some are quite frankly right in front of us. I think the NIKON RANGEFINDER KNOWN PRO has a certain ring to it. 

as for my thoughts on the Open Pro's....
at my first Pro/Am I didn't register early enough so i got to shoot all 40targets in one day. That 2nd day i had a friend shooting Semi Pro and a few friends shooting K50. I decided to kill time by watching the A&B range. it was absolutly eye opening. These folks, the men and the women, are due the utmost respect.

Sooner or later someone in this thread is going to make a silly comment that other sports don't evolve. This will be hogwash no matter how you phrase it. Whether it be football and its ever changing rules on contacting a defenseless reciever or basketball and its change of pace over the last several decades ALL GAMES EVOLVE! if Known isn't your deal thats fine shoot a unkown class. the ASA, like no other organization, has a place for you.

Marc


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## Kstigall (Feb 24, 2004)

McCann speaks the truth. 

The NFAA chose not to embrace 3D and look where they are now. When 3d was coming of age the NFAA had the membership to take control of the national or regional 3D game but chose instead to let the NFAA become one of the least viable archery orgs in the country. The field archery game has shriveled to the point of being a _dried _raisin. The NFAA does have indoor spot archery but the big VEGAS tournament is NOT an NFAA tournament.

The IBO struggles because they refuse to evolve and grow. They stand stagnant.

The ASA is the only archery organization/business that has shown the ability to evolve and to explore archery games.


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## Mark1976 (Apr 12, 2012)

We use magnifiers, clarifiers, 30"+ stabilizers, 10-20" sidebars, limit speed and poundage, ext... And use umbrellas to keep the sun out of our eyes, yet think that range finders and known distance aren't legit?!?! Are you kidding me??? This whole post was created to start a pissing match...and unfortunately it did! I wish we had every shooter that doesn't shoot competitively because of the politics and crying show up and shoot! I am sure it would be a record attendance! This kind of crap is what is taking away from our sport, not a damn range finder. Who is anyone on AT to say who should or shouldn't be a considered a Pro? Put your keyboards down and grab a bow and go to these shoots and shoot with some different classes and get informed before you spout off at the mouth! This isn't hunting or even close! My michigan hunting guide has less rules and regulations than the IBO/ASA handbook...and how many of you take out your competition rig to the tree stand come deer season? Better yet, how many don't have a range finder in their pocket, even the "pro's"? So just stop trying to piss in others Cheerios and do your own thing! Your starting arguing matches does nothing for the sport of archery or hunting!


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## WhitBri (Jan 30, 2007)

Kstigall said:


> I'm not knocking the Open Pro's but not all of them would walk all over some of the K50 guys on a challenging Known distance course. Just look at how the Pro 3D'ers do in spot shoots. I know it's a different game. Transitioning from aiming at a spot face to a small "area" on different 3D targets takes some mental gymnastics to have a solid shot execution. That is another reason you don't see world class "spotties" slogging around poking foam.


Have you looked at a pro 3d leaderboard recently? Name the last Vegas shootoff Levi wasn't in. Chance made his name on the indoor line and decided to start shooting more 3d and he's been on the podium a fair share over the last year. 
IMO if you want the pro class to grow you have to get more money to pay deeper because in this game the top tier are far and away better than the rest no matter what rules they shoot by.


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## ThunderEagle (May 11, 2011)

WhitBri said:


> Have you looked at a pro 3d leaderboard recently? Name the last Vegas shootoff Levi wasn't in. Chance made his name on the indoor line and decided to start shooting more 3d and he's been on the podium a fair share over the last year.
> IMO if you want the pro class to grow you have to get more money to pay deeper because in this game the top tier are far and away better than the rest no matter what rules they shoot by.


The point being at indoor spots, the top 3d guys are even with the top spot guys in terms of shot execution. I think you would see a much tighter and bigger group at the top, but honestly, that is neither here nor there.

Your second point, if they want that pro class to grow and thrive, it is going to need to pay deeper, and that is going to mean the Ford 3d Nationals, the Pepsi 3d Worlds, the Chick-fil-A 3-D Championships (One chicken target per range! Think you hate turkeys, just wait!). 

Much like a few years ago when it was kind of Tiger and maybe a couple of others competing for top spot in golf, if there wasn't big money and paying deep, you just couldn't have pro golfers. If 3D archery is going to grow and thrive, the money has to get bigger at the top, and go deeper. Can it? Will it? No idea, but I'm betting the manufacturers are going to start cutting the gravy train down again soon. From what I hear, there used to be outside money in this game, what happened to it?

I'd like to see the sport grow. Hell, ASA or Regions taking on and doing some kind of Field shoot alongside of 3d interests the hell out of me. Heck, have one of these organizations start touring a Redding style shoot around the country. I bet that would be pretty popular.


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## Kstigall (Feb 24, 2004)

WhitBri said:


> Have you looked at a pro 3d leaderboard recently? Name the last Vegas shootoff Levi wasn't in. Chance made his name on the indoor line and decided to start shooting more 3d and he's been on the podium a fair share over the last year.
> IMO if you want the pro class to grow you have to get more money to pay deeper because in this game the top tier are far and away better than the rest no matter what rules they shoot by.


I am very aware of the 3D'ers that are great spot shooters. I shoot spots as well as 3D


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## okarcher (Jul 21, 2002)

Mark1976 said:


> We use magnifiers, clarifiers, 30"+ stabilizers, 10-20" sidebars, limit speed and poundage, ext... And use umbrellas to keep the sun out of our eyes, yet think that range finders and known distance aren't legit?!?! Are you kidding me??? This whole post was created to start a pissing match...and unfortunately it did! I wish we had every shooter that doesn't shoot competitively because of the politics and crying show up and shoot! I am sure it would be a record attendance! This kind of crap is what is taking away from our sport, not a damn range finder. Who is anyone on AT to say who should or shouldn't be a considered a Pro? Put your keyboards down and grab a bow and go to these shoots and shoot with some different classes and get informed before you spout off at the mouth! This isn't hunting or even close! My michigan hunting guide has less rules and regulations than the IBO/ASA handbook...and how many of you take out your competition rig to the tree stand come deer season? Better yet, how many don't have a range finder in their pocket, even the "pro's"? So just stop trying to piss in others Cheerios and do your own thing! Your starting arguing matches does nothing for the sport of archery or hunting!


What he said, lol


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## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

okarcher said:


> What he said, lol


K50 archers cant wait until all pros are shooting known. 
DB


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## tmorelli (Jul 31, 2005)

Daniel Boone said:


> K50 archers cant wait until all pros are shooting known.
> DB


Now you're talking.


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## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

tmorelli said:


> Now you're talking.


Hey Im all for it and disappointed it wont be happening at Texas.
DB


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## Mark1976 (Apr 12, 2012)

I don't care either way, but I sure as hell ain't afraid of it and am really unclear on how it will "hurt" the sport! I am just getting tired of the complaining from the guys that shoot neither class, nor have the guys to step up and shoot these classes to see what goes into competing in either class, open pro or k50! But they sure as heck don't mind trying to start a conflict between the classes! The whole K50 guys don't want this...be careful what you wish for..., known classes aren't worthy..., your robbing the pro's..., bla,bla,bla! If you think that any of us in K50 are intimidated by Levi, Tim, Chance, Darren, or anyone else...you must be confused! I have great respect for those guys and really enjoy talking to them and pick their brain on certain things to better myself, but I also have respect for many other people including myself! Tim Gillingham has always answered all of my questions and helped me out when he could have just told me to piss in the wind. I believe all top archers have a mutual respect for one another and are most of the time, willing to help up and comers that may well be competing against them in the future! I have only been competing in Archery for about 3 1/2 years and have won my way to where I am now. All the way I have listened, watched, and used things that others helped me with to grow. Most of what I have gotten is from my competitors! It has always blown my mind on how much your own competitors are willing to give advice and help you when you are struggling...and I have always tried to return that to others I shoot with! So stop trying to put up road blocks for that to continue with your AT bs! This is my first year in K50 and I can see that most of the K50 guys know the open pros and most are friends with one another, so trying to get them to argue and step on each other's toes prolly won't happen, but they also are not scared of one another! Everyone that level is pretty confident in what their abilities are win or lose! I agree with making the K50 class a pro class, and hope that it doesn't take anything away from the known side of things, but if it does...it won't be because the known guys and the unknown guys are against each other!


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## tmorelli (Jul 31, 2005)

Preach it.


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## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

Mark1976 said:


> I don't care either way, but I sure as hell ain't afraid of it and am really unclear on how it will "hurt" the sport! I am just getting tired of the complaining from the guys that shoot neither class, nor have the guys to step up and shoot these classes to see what goes into competing in either class, open pro or k50! But they sure as heck don't mind trying to start a conflict between the classes! The whole K50 guys don't want this...be careful what you wish for..., known classes aren't worthy..., your robbing the pro's..., bla,bla,bla! If you think that any of us in K50 are intimidated by Levi, Tim, Chance, Darren, or anyone else...you must be confused! I have great respect for those guys and really enjoy talking to them and pick their brain on certain things to better myself, but I also have respect for many other people including myself! Tim Gillingham has always answered all of my questions and helped me out when he could have just told me to piss in the wind. I believe all top archers have a mutual respect for one another and are most of the time, willing to help up and comers that may well be competing against them in the future! I have only been competing in Archery for about 3 1/2 years and have won my way to where I am now. All the way I have listened, watched, and used things that others helped me with to grow. Most of what I have gotten is from my competitors! It has always blown my mind on how much your own competitors are willing to give advice and help you when you are struggling...and I have always tried to return that to others I shoot with! So stop trying to put up road blocks for that to continue with your AT bs! This is my first year in K50 and I can see that most of the K50 guys know the open pros and most are friends with one another, so trying to get them to argue and step on each other's toes prolly won't happen, but they also are not scared of one another! Everyone that level is pretty confident in what their abilities are win or lose! I agree with making the K50 class a pro class, and hope that it doesn't take anything away from the known side of things, but if it does...it won't be because the known guys and the unknown guys are against each other!


Where have anyone said either group of archers was against one another? Its an archery discussion thread, thats what we do here is disscuss. It not a life or death and it most likely will never matter to anything that happens in ASA events. Anyone who wants to input can and it dont matter what class they shoot in ASA. I know alot of these guys in both class's and understand entirely what at stake. Some of us have been around ASA sense it started.
DB


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## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

tmorelli said:


> Preach it.


Maybe we need another Bowjunky podcast about this. !:tongue::tongue::beer:
DB


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## tmorelli (Jul 31, 2005)

Daniel Boone said:


> Maybe we need another Bowjunky podcast about this. K50 guys are trouble makers any way!
> DB


Lol. How's that?


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## jbeasleyshoot (Jan 29, 2008)

Im a lowly B class guy that finishes in the middle of the pack. I started 3D when it was a sin to even talk about having a range finder on the 3D course. I started shooting last year after a 10 year break and known was in full swing. I shot C class last year where we did half and half and gained a great respect for known distance. My scores dont really change with known because I dont manage the course as well. This being my point that it is somewhat two different games. I have much respect for known shooters even though I will probably never go that direction just due to my personal aspirations of maybe going semi or pro someday, yea right... Anyhow I think it is good for the sport. I have seen lots of great shooters loose interest over the years because for whatever reason they were not good yardage guessers so anything that keeps someone shooting is good. As for the K50 v pro thing who knows. Known is growing and the sport evolves just like anything else we would have never thought 15 years ago this conversation would even exhist. Maybe in the future we will see half known and half un on the pro course who's to say but one thing is for sure there aint enough money for both imho if we wanna keep paybacks decent enough for guys to pay the big entry fees. Not to change the subject but has anyone ever thought of making the pros shoot out to 70-80 yds or having a known 80? Talk about something that could level the playing field, just a thought


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## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

tmorelli said:


> Lol. How's that?


Just shoot and be Happy Happy Happy. Just kidding around! You guys are sensitive!
DB


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## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

jbeasleyshoot said:


> Im a lowly B class guy that finishes in the middle of the pack. I started 3D when it was a sin to even talk about having a range finder on the 3D course. I started shooting last year after a 10 year break and known was in full swing. I shot C class last year where we did half and half and gained a great respect for known distance. My scores dont really change with known because I dont manage the course as well. This being my point that it is somewhat two different games. I have much respect for known shooters even though I will probably never go that direction just due to my personal aspirations of maybe going semi or pro someday, yea right... Anyhow I think it is good for the sport. I have seen lots of great shooters loose interest over the years because for whatever reason they were not good yardage guessers so anything that keeps someone shooting is good. As for the K50 v pro thing who knows. Known is growing and the sport evolves just like anything else we would have never thought 15 years ago this conversation would even exhist. Maybe in the future we will see half known and half un on the pro course who's to say but one thing is for sure there aint enough money for both imho if we wanna keep paybacks decent enough for guys to pay the big entry fees. Not to change the subject but has anyone ever thought of making the pros shoot out to 70-80 yds or having a known 80? Talk about something that could level the playing field, just a thought


It takes alot of work to cut 50 yard lanes for an ASA. Not an easy task to cut in so many ranges. Known 80 would require cutting over head branchs.
DB


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## Mark1976 (Apr 12, 2012)

There is a difference between a discussion and making comments to intentionally start an argument! If some of you have been around so long...how did you feel when magnification came in, long stabilizers, umbrellas? I sure that the cavemen were pissed about the rubber wheel too, but look where we are now!!! Don't take that wrong or you too are "too sensitive"!!! Lol


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## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

Mark1976 said:


> There is a difference between a discussion and making comments to intentionally start an argument! If some of you have been around so long...how did you feel when magnification came in, long stabilizers, umbrellas? I sure that the cavemen were pissed about the rubber wheel too, but look where we are now!!! Don't take that wrong or you too are "too sensitive"!!! Lol


Mark I just want to say everyone has an opionion. Your the only one that is saying it an arguement! Its a disscussion and no one here should be getting upset. You for some reason think everyone against known yardage shoot. I know exactly why the top pros are against it and many posted exactly why on facebook. they have not asked a long the way to make the game of 3d easier. They toned there skills in yardage and shooting to earn the respect they deserve. On the other hand I understand guys who want known because they feel they cant judge or have the time to judge to compete in pro class.
DB


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## drahthaaraddict (Jul 22, 2013)

I just started to shoot 3d this year and if it wasn't for the known distance classes I wouldn't have ever started shooting 3d. I would bet that the known distance classes bring more new shooters to the sport than the unknown. 

If you make k50 a pro class then you have nowhere to move to after you win out of K45 if you don't want to compete on or pay pro level entry fees. Most would probably like to see a know pro class, however I don't think the shooting pool is quite big enough yet to have a k50 and kpro class.


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## Mark1976 (Apr 12, 2012)

Dan, there have been many post on here that known is not for 3d and that the guys that use them aren't true 3d shooters! You have made comments that the pros would have love this and were chomping at the bit to take our money! I do get upset when comments like these are made! I, on the other hand have not heard any known shooter come on here and say anything negative towards the unknown shooters or say that there is no place for judging anymore! We are simply saying that we believe the known class should indeed have a pro side, not that the open pros that judge should have to shoot known or that the guys in open a, or semi pro should start using range finders! I believe there is a place for both! We are all passionate about the things we do...so when "you" and "others" make certain comments, you have to know that it is going to upset people! I am not saying that you have no opinion nor am I saying that anyone can't say whatever they choose, no more than you can say that known shouldn't be a pro class! I am very well aware of what AT is all about and that it is a discussion forum! So we all have to listen to all of it when we decide to log on! So...I will try not to take you so serious, but you will have to know that if someone says something that cranks me off...you will see me on here preaching...as Tony put it! Lol


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## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

Mark1976 said:


> Dan, there have been many post on here that known is not for 3d and that the guys that use them aren't true 3d shooters! You have made comments that the pros would have love this and were chomping at the bit to take our money! I do get upset when comments like these are made! I, on the other hand have not heard any known shooter come on here and say anything negative towards the unknown shooters or say that there is no place for judging anymore! We are simply saying that we believe the known class should indeed have a pro side, not that the open pros that judge should have to shoot known or that the guys in open a, or semi pro should start using range finders! I believe there is a place for both! We are all passionate about the things we do...so when "you" and "others" make certain comments, you have to know that it is going to upset people! I am not saying that you have no opinion nor am I saying that anyone can't say whatever they choose, no more than you can say that known shouldn't be a pro class! I am very well aware of what AT is all about and that it is a discussion forum! So we all have to listen to all of it when we decide to log on! So...I will try not to take you so serious, but you will have to know that if someone says something that cranks me off...you will see me on here preaching...as Tony put it! Lol


Only thing that matters in pro class is the amount of money won. Question is there enough manufacturers willing to split the contingency money up or take away from the open pro class. When I say put the money in known class the open pros will go where the money is to be won and will hold there own and I stand by this comment completely. How many would put up 250 entry fee to shoot against the best archers in the world maybe one day will see it. The whole class will change completely when you put up big money to be won in it. Will be a different leader board IMO if this happens. It all just discussions and no one will know for sure what would happen. When I comment be carefull what you wish for I really mean it will change the K50 all together (IMO). Will ASA and pro 3d go this route only time will tell.
DB


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## TAYLOR CO. (Jun 9, 2005)

tmorelli said:


> And they won't as long as the manufacturers ignore it..... and we've arrived where we started....full circle....chicken/egg.....etc


I agree.


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## jbeasleyshoot (Jan 29, 2008)

This is true DB it still would be cool to see. Didn't think of the logistics though


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## Kstigall (Feb 24, 2004)

I've just recently shot my first tournament in K50 and I'll most likely shoot K50 in London, Ky. I stand by my statement that making "K50" a full blown "Pro" class right now would be a BIG mistake. I know there are K50 archers, archers shooting Open Pro 3D and big time spot shooters that seriously disagree with me. If there were to be a Pro known distance it should be a new class. BUT I seriously doubt I'd turn Pro. The costs are measurably higher as I would also be required to shoot "Pro" in the NFAA and the IBO.

I can only repeat my previous comments.... Requiring archers that shoot out of one of the largest, fastest growing and most popular classes as it currently stands to turn Pro is not conducive to growing archery. There must be level(s) between K45 and the highest class (Pro Known). That would be much like dissolving Open A and Semi-Pro and requiring Open B "winners" to go Pro or stay home. IF K50 becomes "Pro" then another class above K45 and below K50 needs to be created. Possibly increasing the "win out" format for K45 could help.

It seems some of the guys wanting K50 to just turn Pro are either only thinking of themselves OR think doing so will ultimately take the current known distance archers down a notch. Neither thought is conducive to growing archery or healthy for the ASA.


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## boutarchery (Mar 19, 2013)

all I can say is I don't miss this at all.... we need to support archery not talk bad about archery, ultimately being responsible when we go to the woods I.E. Rangefinder


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## okarcher (Jul 21, 2002)

Good points, Kstigall. Maybe if the K50 class can grow down the road there may be a better possibilty of a known Pro. Still would like to see of mfg's take a little more notice in the k50 class, we do pay semi pro entry fee. Be nice if some of the mfg's paid us at least as well as they do the semi's. Proud of the bow company I shoot for (Strother) stepping up and paying contingency to us in the k50 class.


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## Mark1976 (Apr 12, 2012)

I would agree that upping the win out of k45 would help a bit, but I also think it would hurt some as well! Maybe I am wrong, but you always see the top 5-10% of each class doing 90% of the winning and by allowing them to remain in a class that they have clearly shown that they have the ability to move out of, would possibly deter others in that class from competing in the future. That is one of the things I love about ASA...is that they don't allow you to just sit in a class once you have shown that you should no longer be there! I realize the cost would be higher, and that alone would be a huge factor, but also believe that if you won your way out of K45, you are ready to shoot a pro known class, and you would clearly be able to compete at that level! You do not have to go to K50, you would not have to go to the known pro class...you are still allowed to go to open A, or Semi pro, or even Open B! Either way this will take some serious thought! I really don't think it is about just thinking of themselves or ourselves! Sure some of it is, but I also believe that it is truly about growing the class and bringing recognition to the growing Known side of 3d competition.


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## Kstigall (Feb 24, 2004)

Mark1976 said:


> I would agree that upping the win out of k45 would help a bit, but I also think it would hurt some as well! Maybe I am wrong, but you always see the top 5-10% of each class doing 90% of the winning and by allowing them to remain in a class that they have clearly shown that they have the ability to move out of, would possibly deter others in that class from competing in the future. That is one of the things I love about ASA...is that they don't allow you to just sit in a class once you have shown that you should no longer be there! I realize the cost would be higher, and that alone would be a huge factor, but also believe that if you won your way out of K45, you are ready to shoot a pro known class, and you would clearly be able to compete at that level! You do not have to go to K50, you would not have to go to the known pro class...you are still allowed to go to open A, or Semi pro, or even Open B! Either way this will take some serious thought! I really don't think it is about just thinking of themselves or ourselves! Sure some of it is, but I also believe that it is truly about growing the class and bringing recognition to the growing Known side of 3d competition.


I have to disagree when you say those winning out of K45 are ready to compete as a Pro archer. As it stands right now you can _not_ win out of K45 and then move to Open B. You must go to a high level (semi-pro or Open A) unknown distance class or K50. To elevate K50 to "Pro" would be really raising the bar. There is already quite a significant difference between K45 and K50. I'm fortunate in that I have the option of shooting Senior Open and that is what I would shoot if K50 was "elevated". If K50 was a "Pro" class and I was shooting K45 I'd move to Open B before I won out of K45 if I did not want to be forced to shoot Pro.

I know at least some K50 guys want the chance to win more money but it's not in the organizations best interest to basically place a big wall in front of their most popular product (mid-level known distance class). Add a Pro Known class if it appears it is viable but don't hinder what is proven and currently working. Most of us are not focusing on becoming any kind of Pro. We are focused on improving our archery skills, enjoying competition and generally enjoying our _hobby_. If it make it to a higher level that's just icing on the cake.


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## okarcher (Jul 21, 2002)

Rule changed they can shoot in Open B now.

Known 45 Open – No restrictions on age or sex. 45 yards, 290 FPS, Known 
Anyone in Known 45 who earned over $500 and had at least one top-ten finish in their last year of Pro/Am competition 
must compete in Open B or higher.


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

Mark1976 said:


> I would agree that upping the win out of k45 would help a bit, but I also think it would hurt some as well! Maybe I am wrong, but you always see the top 5-10% of each class doing 90% of the winning and by allowing them to remain in a class that they have clearly shown that they have the ability to move out of, would possibly deter others in that class from competing in the future. That is one of the things I love about ASA...is that they don't allow you to just sit in a class once you have shown that you should no longer be there! I realize the cost would be higher, and that alone would be a huge factor, but also believe that if you won your way out of K45, you are ready to shoot a pro known class, and you would clearly be able to compete at that level! You do not have to go to K50, you would not have to go to the known pro class...you are still allowed to go to open A, or Semi pro, or even Open B! Either way this will take some serious thought! I really don't think it is about just thinking of themselves or ourselves! Sure some of it is, but I also believe that it is truly about growing the class and bringing recognition to the growing Known side of 3d competition.


Yes, going from $50 to $125 is a deterrent for jumping to K50.... I heard whimpering for those who won out in Open A having to go to Semi Pro and then going from Semi to Pro.... If the money isn't there why would you want to go Semi Pro or Pro... Hey, you just plain got to be good to knock over those who pretty consistently place in the top 10. Or should I say Top 5 or 3 even? Right now it's more like you pay to get beat....


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## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

okarcher said:


> Rule changed they can shoot in Open B now.
> 
> Known 45 Open – No restrictions on age or sex. 45 yards, 290 FPS, Known
> Anyone in Known 45 who earned over $500 and had at least one top-ten finish in their last year of Pro/Am competition
> must compete in Open B or higher.



Good change because some don't want the higher entry fees.
DB


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## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

okarcher said:


> Good points, Kstigall. Maybe if the K50 class can grow down the road there may be a better possibilty of a known Pro. Still would like to see of mfg's take a little more notice in the k50 class, we do pay semi pro entry fee. Be nice if some of the mfg's paid us at least as well as they do the semi's. Proud of the bow company I shoot for (Strother) stepping up and paying contingency to us in the k50 class.


I do think manufacturers are taking notice of K50 class and with more entry's in the future I think you will see others doing like Strothers paying contingency in this class.
DB


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## Kstigall (Feb 24, 2004)

okarcher said:


> Rule changed they can shoot in Open B now.
> 
> Known 45 Open – No restrictions on age or sex. 45 yards, 290 FPS, Known
> Anyone in Known 45 who earned over $500 and had at least one top-ten finish in their last year of Pro/Am competition
> must compete in Open B or higher.


I did not know that. Looks like I have another option! Now I'm really confused......... K50, Open B or Senior Open?

They also lowered the bar for winning out of K45.


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## STRICNINE (Oct 22, 2012)

Kstigall said:


> There is already quite a significant difference between K45 and K50.


15 feet?


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## Kstigall (Feb 24, 2004)

STRICNINE said:


> 15 feet?


Yep, the _only _difference is 15 feet!!!


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## okarcher (Jul 21, 2002)

The biggest gripe I hear from K45 guys wanting to move to K50 is the entry fee jump, not the higher competition. You hear the same thing from open A guys going to semi's. I guess it does always come down to the $$$$.


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## 573mms (Jan 23, 2014)

You are talking about growing the sport, what about all the guys that have shot local 3d tournaments for years and absolutely don't believe in known yardage. Asa has forgot about these guys, the same kinda guys that got them started in the first place! If you don't want to shoot known yardage with a bow with pins you have to start out in unlimited class, hunter is half and half and bow novice is all known. If you are shooting a open bow you have to go all the way to open A to shoot unkown, openC is a joke its k40 and open b is half and half. So if you are talking about growing the sport what happened to all the entry-level unkown classes for all the local tournament guys. 3d has been around for alot longer than known yardage classes have and whether or not the known guys like it or not, their are still alot of guys out their that believe 3d is about yardage guessing. The guys like this are not going to start shooting asa because they don't have any classes to start out in.


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## Kstigall (Feb 24, 2004)

okarcher said:


> The biggest gripe I hear from K45 guys wanting to move to K50 is the entry fee jump, not the higher competition. You hear the same thing from open A guys going to semi's. I guess it does always come down to the $$$$.


Let's not forget that not only does the entry fee increase the chances of winning decreases........ Back to the $$$$ and ego!


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## Bowhunter163 (Sep 25, 2012)

573mms said:


> You are talking about growing the sport, what about all the guys that have shot local 3d tournaments for years and absolutely don't believe in known yardage. Asa has forgot about these guys, the same kinda guys that got them started in the first place! If you don't want to shoot known yardage with a bow with pins you have to start out in unlimited class, hunter is half and half and bow novice is all known. If you are shooting a open bow you have to go all the way to open A to shoot unkown, openC is a joke its k40 and open b is half and half. So if you are talking about growing the sport what happened to all the entry-level unkown classes for all the local tournament guys. 3d has been around for alot longer than known yardage classes have and whether or not the known guys like it or not, their are still alot of guys out their that believe 3d is about yardage guessing. The guys like this are not going to start shooting asa because they don't have any classes to start out in.


In all honesty , not meaning this in a bad way . But I am guessing the reason ASA has their classes set up that way is because that is what is drawing the shooters . I mean they are obviously doing something right . I would assume if these hardcore anti known yardage shooters were showing up it never would have went the way it has . ASA is evolving to whatever they feel will make them the most money . And it's working .


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## jimb (Feb 17, 2003)

ibo is all unknown


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## Garceau (Sep 3, 2010)

573mms said:


> You are talking about growing the sport, what about all the guys that have shot local 3d tournaments for years and absolutely don't believe in known yardage. Asa has forgot about these guys, the same kinda guys that got them started in the first place! If you don't want to shoot known yardage with a bow with pins you have to start out in unlimited class, hunter is half and half and bow novice is all known. If you are shooting a open bow you have to go all the way to open A to shoot unkown, openC is a joke its k40 and open b is half and half. So if you are talking about growing the sport what happened to all the entry-level unkown classes for all the local tournament guys. 3d has been around for alot longer than known yardage classes have and whether or not the known guys like it or not, their are still alot of guys out their that believe 3d is about yardage guessing. The guys like this are not going to start shooting asa because they don't have any classes to start out in.


Where are they all when it comes to ASA?

ASA is a business and in it to make money as much as grow the sport - lets face it.

Up here 3D shoots were dieing, flat out going away and losing interest. In the 90s couple hundred would come to a shoot, in the mid 2000s a couple dozen MAYBE. What brought shooters back? Allowing them to use range finders and shoot in their own class, they flat out said they didnt like losing 15 dollar arrows. They now shoot in their own class or for fun and the numbers are slowing coming back.


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## Tallcatt (Jul 27, 2003)

573mms said:


> You are talking about growing the sport, what about all the guys that have shot local 3d tournaments for years and absolutely don't believe in known yardage. Asa has forgot about these guys, the same kinda guys that got them started in the first place! If you don't want to shoot known yardage with a bow with pins you have to start out in unlimited class, hunter is half and half and bow novice is all known. If you are shooting a open bow you have to go all the way to open A to shoot unkown, openC is a joke its k40 and open b is half and half. So if you are talking about growing the sport what happened to all the entry-level unkown classes for all the local tournament guys. 3d has been around for alot longer than known yardage classes have and whether or not the known guys like it or not, their are still alot of guys out their that believe 3d is about yardage guessing. The guys like this are not going to start shooting asa because they don't have any classes to start out in.


ASA certainly and quite obviously knows that the known distance element is very popular with the shooters and very important to ASA's success. On the other hand ASA gives the shooters a lot of choices and the opportunity for shooters to find their comfort level whether it be in a known distance class, a 1/2 and 1/2 class or an all unknown class. If shooters feel that they have a chance to compete they will come back. They have not only come back, but come back in record numbers. 

ASA has 34 shooting classes. 12 classes shoot all unknown distance, 11 classes shoot all known distance, and 11 classes shoot 1/2 known distance and 1/2 unknown distance. 

In Tuscaloosa there were 592 shooters shooting Known distance classes, 566 shooters shooting Unknown distance classes, and 374 shooters shooting 1/2 and 1/2 classes for a total of 1532 shooters which set a new attendance record. 

Its hard to argue with success.......


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

Garceau said:


> ///////
> Up here 3D shoots were dieing, flat out going away and losing interest. In the 90s couple hundred would come to a shoot, in the mid 2000s a couple dozen MAYBE. What brought shooters back? Allowing them to use range finders and shoot in their own class, they flat out said they didnt like losing 15 dollar arrows. They now shoot in their own class or for fun and the numbers are slowing coming back.


I've been member of this one club since 1999. Average attendance in 2000 was well over a 100 and crept up to average 187 and 198. Several companies moved or shut down and average attendance dropped to around 100. For the last 4 or 5 years the average has held at 140+. Two weeks ago, our first 3D of the year we drew 204 shooters. We have always had individual classes and just this year we started allowing Range Finders, a class of it's own. We had -6- shooters. Sort of goes against my grain having the class. We allowed Range Finders, but scores weren't allowed. As it is now, anyone shooting with a person who uses a Range Finder their score wont' be allowed.


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## Mark1976 (Apr 12, 2012)

If I recall correctly 57mms...you started this post as a question...so like it or not your getting your answer!!!


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## cenochs (May 2, 2007)

Kind of off the subject but Competitive 3D archery cannibilizes itself especially in the Pro Class. The shooters are trying to win entry fee money paid by themselves makes no sense. If you finished 10th in AL which is a great finish in the Top Ten you would have earned 275$ but wait your entry fee was 275$ so actually you won ZERO!!!!!

Most of the Guys winning and Placing in the Top 5 are working for a Archery Manufacturer already so it is not a surprise they are at the Top they earned it... For the last 14 years only 2 shooters in the Mens Pro ASA have own shooter of the year...??? 

Until the Pro Class gets outside sponsors not Archery Related then it will continue to eat itself from the inside.

Everyone talks about contingency woo wee just another way to canniblize yourself. Keep taking more and more from the same pot that seems to be the solution. 

You want a TRUE PRO CLASS
1. Entry costed ZERO or like the PGA Tour The Pros pay 125$ to enter a event..
Entry to the Class is earned and you are invited in and must meet requirements to stay - no large corporate sponsor is going to sponsor a Pro Class of anything if any Tom Dick and Harry can sign up and shoot it does not make the sport legitimate and competition is watered down..
2. Must Find Outside Sponsors Chevy Ford do some research and see how much each gives towards sports each year!! What we would be asking for would be nothing..
3. Must change the shooter of the year system to something that is not elementary like we have now
4. Guaranteed payout at each event down so many places 
5. Need to have a Cut and anyone that makes the cut gets $$$ Talk about making shooting count more on day 1..


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## Tallcatt (Jul 27, 2003)

I am all for a strong Pro class but the facts are its the amateur classes that make the 3D organizations (ASA, IBO and NFAA) successful. 

For example...at Tuscaloosa their were 1532 shooters and 152 were in the three Pro classes. That is 9% of the shooters. 

Even if you included Semi-Pro (75 shooters) and K-50 (31 shooters) for a total of 258 shooters (Pro+Semi-Pro+K50) that is still only 16% of the shooters. 

If you made it tougher to be a Pro shooter that 9% would surely go down.


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## 573mms (Jan 23, 2014)

Ya, I guess I got my answer and by the difference in money Tim won compared to what Sam won at the last asa. I guess you got your answer too$$$


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

Tallcatt said:


> I am all for a strong Pro class but the facts are *its the amateur classes that make the 3D organizations (ASA, IBO and NFAA) successful. *
> For example...at Tuscaloosa their were 1532 shooters and 152 were in the three Pro classes. That is 9% of the shooters.
> 
> Even if you included Semi-Pro (75 shooters) and K-50 (31 shooters) for a total of 258 shooters (Pro+Semi-Pro+K50) that is still only 16% of the shooters.
> ...


Agree.......


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## schmel_me (Dec 17, 2003)

Open c,b,a semi, open pro, k45, k50 (7) men's open classes. 
Why not go to k40,k45,k50. (Unknown) open C,B,Semi pro,open pro. 
Would use the same 40-45-50 yd ranges. 
Then would have to clear paths to choose known or unknown. Could always add a known pro I the future If needed.


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## Mark1976 (Apr 12, 2012)

I wasn't the one asking the question!!! It just doesn't make sense to ask a question then complain at the answers. You made up your mind how you felt about it by answering your own question in your original post..."you" don't think that k50 guys are PRO and that's fune! But when "you" ask what others opinions are, don't gripe about their responses!


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## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

I posted on this the other day but after this weekend I have been reminded why I believe that the top k50 shooters are pro shooters, I was in kansas and our 3d range was unknown and really tough but the course was on a piece of land that had distances marked with bricks with the yardage painted on the bricks on a few of the targets. I would say around 4 of the 40 shots were like this and they put the target right up to the layered target that matched the brick and the shooting stake was next to the brick so when the brick said 45 yards I shot the target for 44.5 yards to allow for the target being in front of the layered target.

I didn't get a single freaking 12 on any of the four targets that were marked like this with the bricks. I made a solid shot and got my 10 but I missed each one of them by 1.8 inch up to half a inch, it was so irritating to shoot those 4 shots that strong and not get at least two twelves out of the 4 targets.

That reminded me of Sam and when I shot with him locally a few weeks ago, he walked up and asked if he could shoot with us and I said yes and he shot a couple 10's to start the day on targets that I thought he would have smoked and he never showed any emotion bad or good about the 10's he had just gotten and I think I actually got a 12 on one of them. Then something special happened and he started shooting 12's over and over and over regardless of how many arrows were blocking the 12 ring and he did it without rattling our arrows. He simply had my best friend who is a new 3d shooter and had never shot with a pro shooter before speechless at his ability to shoot a stinking bow and not only shoot the bow but do it effortlessly and pin point accurate target after target all day long.

I think there are some strong pro shooters in known 50 but not as many as are in the open pro class, both k50 and open pro have some shooters that don't belong there but that is the nature of the beast when dealing with humans. If you get a chance to meet Sam he is a good guy and if I am near by he will be making fun of me so you can join in with him, then shoot with him if you can and watch his firing engine and shooting form because it is world class good.


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## STRICNINE (Oct 22, 2012)

Padgett said:


> both k50 and open pro have some shooters that don't belong there but that is the nature of the beast when dealing with humans.


Sometimes it's just the difference of who's hitting them and who's not that day. The cream always rises to the top but one thing I have learned quickly in ASA everyone at some point has their good and bad days. Luckily I have met a few at the top that have shared their past stories of tough times, showed me the scores of their first trips into the class.

It was at that time I personally realized I was competing with some of the most humble folks around that have earned their way to the top. Don't count out the guys that don't always win, their day is coming. For some, that time is now.


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## Kstigall (Feb 24, 2004)

STRICNINE said:


> Sometimes it's just the difference of who's hitting them and who's not that day. The cream always rises to the top but one thing I have learned quickly in ASA everyone at some point has their good and bad days. Luckily I have met a few at the top that have shared their past stories of tough times, showed me the scores of their first trips into the class.
> 
> It was at that time I personally realized I was competing with some of the most humble folks around that have earned their way to the top. Don't count out the guys that don't always win, their day is coming. For some, that time is now.


Anybody that has ever won anything in archery worth a damn has also been humbled...........more than once! I'm amazed not at the guy that shoots 60 X's in practice or league, I can do that, but the guys that do it day after day time after time when the chips are down. What Levi has been doing for the last few years is amazing to me. He consistently gets in the shoot down and scores very well whether it's in Vegas, ASA Classic, IBO Worlds or over seas. The way Jesse, Reo and Braden are always at the top is Michael Jordan like......


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## tmorelli (Jul 31, 2005)

STRICNINE said:


> ...showed me the scores of their first trips into the class.



399 with 17- 12's. 

:doh:


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## shootist (Aug 28, 2003)

tmorelli said:


> 399 with 17- 12's.
> 
> :doh:


Did you hit any 10's???? lol.


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## tmorelli (Jul 31, 2005)

shootist said:


> Did you hit any 10's???? lol.


I don't remember. I do remember setting my sight for 42 yards on a leopard. I broke a beautiful shot that would've been my 6th consecutive 12.....if that leopard hadn't been 47 yards.


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## shootist (Aug 28, 2003)

tmorelli said:


> I don't remember. I do remember setting my sight for 42 yards on a leopard. I broke a beautiful shot that would've been my 6th consecutive 12.....if that leopard hadn't been 47 yards.


I think that is a key to success in a known distance class...shooting it for the correct distance.  There is nothing I hate more than mis-setting my sight. I've done it twice in big shoots and it was very painful on both occasions.


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

Anyone look at the Tuscaloosa scores for K50 and Pro? K50, 23 with 400 and up (high 428). Open Pro, 36 with 400 and up (Tim G with 436 and all others 428 and down).


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## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

SonnyThomas said:


> Anyone look at the Tuscaloosa scores for K50 and Pro? K50, 23 with 400 and up (high 428). Open Pro, 36 with 400 and up (Tim G with 436 and all others 428 and down).


Interesting but not at all surprising. The money will always bring the best shooters in pro class's. 
DB


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## perdieu2011 (May 16, 2011)

SonnyThomas said:


> Anyone look at the Tuscaloosa scores for K50 and Pro? K50, 23 with 400 and up (high 428). Open Pro, 36 with 400 and up (Tim G with 436 and all others 428 and down).


And what does this prove??? What about the first 2 shoots???? To me it proves nothing? Two different classes..........not dissing the Pros at all because they can shoot lights out and I look up to everyone of them!!! But you give some of the pros the right yardage and maybe they will not shoot as good...but then on the other hand you give some of them the right yardage and they will shoot better!!! How many of the pros know every target to the half yard anyhow???


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## tmorelli (Jul 31, 2005)

SonnyThomas said:


> Anyone look at the Tuscaloosa scores for K50 and Pro? K50, 23 with 400 and up (high 428). Open Pro, 36 with 400 and up (Tim G with 436 and all others 428 and down).


Im not disagreeing in spirit but in this specific case, K50's lead peer group was also assessed zero's for shooting a target out of sequence on Sunday. Several groups of pros did the same on Saturday and did not receive zeros.


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## Bowhunter163 (Sep 25, 2012)

tmorelli said:


> Im not disagreeing in spirit but in this specific case, K50's lead peer group was also assessed zero's for shooting a target out of sequence on Sunday. Several groups of pros did the same on Saturday and did not receive zeros.


^^^^^ This . I was wondering why the pros got to reshoot their target Saturday but they made the K50 guys take zeros . Doesn't seem fair to me .


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## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

:moviecorn:moviecorn:moviecorn


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## SlinginZ7 (Feb 22, 2010)

tmorelli said:


> Im not disagreeing in spirit but in this specific case, K50's lead peer group was also assessed zero's for shooting a target out of sequence on Sunday. Several groups of pros did the same on Saturday and did not receive zeros.


That was a different circumstance. The pro group shot the target out of turn (ie shot 15 when they should have been on 14. So they shot the right target from that stake.).

Sam and his group shot from the right number stake but the wrong target from that stake. 

A buddy of mine was in the pro group that shot the wrong stake and they did it following the group ahead of them. When I was watching him on Sunday Sam and his group shot the wrong target right beside us.


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## Scott Bennett (Aug 12, 2012)

tmorelli said:


> The pros are pros for a reason. Open pro is dying for a reason too.
> 
> Like it or not, known distance is the future of this game. If you don't like it, I'd suggest that you do something about it.....
> 
> ...


Mr. Morelli, 

You are spot on with this post bro! I have been shooting 3d off and on for 23years and yes, I was the hardcore judge or go home kind of guy....but as you grow into adulthood and realize that your time is consumed by other priorities in life that keeps you from being able to judge or look at targets in order to compete at your potential, the known classes seem much more appealing to guys like me. 

I agree...the Open Pro class is a dying breed.....


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## JimmyP (Feb 11, 2006)

Scott Bennett said:


> Mr. Morelli,
> 
> You are spot on with this post bro! I have been shooting 3d off and on for 23years and yes, I was the hardcore judge or go home kind of guy....but as you grow into adulthood and realize that your time is consumed by other priorities in life that keeps you from being able to judge or look at targets in order to compete at your potential, the known classes seem much more appealing to guys like me.
> 
> I agree...the Open Pro class is a dying breed.....


Great post family should always come first,I see so many put there hobbies in front of there wife and kids.to be the best it takes a lot of time.known is perfect for people who have family and jobs.my wife and I are real close to be empty nesters and she likes to shoot,so now I can give it more time it's some thing we do together .i have great friends who love to shoot that makes for a great sport.


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## tmorelli (Jul 31, 2005)

SlinginZ7 said:


> That was a different circumstance. The pro group shot the target out of turn (ie shot 15 when they should have been on 14. So they shot the right target from that stake.).
> 
> Sam and his group shot from the right number stake but the wrong target from that stake.
> 
> A buddy of mine was in the pro group that shot the wrong stake and they did it following the group ahead of them. When I was watching him on Sunday Sam and his group shot the wrong target right beside us.



Interesting. In the moment I didn't talk to anyone enough to understand the difference


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## Bowhunter163 (Sep 25, 2012)

SlinginZ7 said:


> That was a different circumstance. The pro group shot the target out of turn (ie shot 15 when they should have been on 14. So they shot the right target from that stake.).
> 
> Sam and his group shot from the right number stake but the wrong target from that stake.
> 
> A buddy of mine was in the pro group that shot the wrong stake and they did it following the group ahead of them. When I was watching him on Sunday Sam and his group shot the wrong target right beside us.


Thanks for explaining that to us .


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## STRICNINE (Oct 22, 2012)

It was easy to hit the wrong target on that course in Tuscaloosa. I'm surprised more didn't do it. I stood at 5 targets or so that when at the stake you were looking forward at the incorrect target. Had to ask to make sure a few times to be sure. lol


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## tmorelli (Jul 31, 2005)

STRICNINE said:


> It was easy to hit the wrong target on that course in Tuscaloosa. I'm surprised more didn't do it. I stood at 5 targets or so that when at the stake you were looking forward at the incorrect target. Had to ask to make sure a few times to be sure. lol


I was lost as last year's easter egg. 

A1, B1, A3, B3, A5, B5............

B2, A2, B4, A4, B6, A6.............

Two ranges mixed and set into about a 200 yd span. 

Stakes numbered on one side and stomped in mud......


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## Bowhunter163 (Sep 25, 2012)

tmorelli said:


> I was lost as last year's easter egg.
> 
> A1, B1, A3, B3, A5, B5............
> 
> ...


I wasn't even shooting it and I was lost lol .


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## McCann (Feb 27, 2005)

Padgett said:


> I posted on this the other day but after this weekend I have been reminded why I believe that the top k50 shooters are pro shooters, I was in kansas and our 3d range was unknown and really tough but the course was on a piece of land that had distances marked with bricks with the yardage painted on the bricks on a few of the targets. I would say around 4 of the 40 shots were like this and they put the target right up to the layered target that matched the brick and the shooting stake was next to the brick so when the brick said 45 yards I shot the target for 44.5 yards to allow for the target being in front of the layered target.
> 
> I didn't get a single freaking 12 on any of the four targets that were marked like this with the bricks. I made a solid shot and got my 10 but I missed each one of them by 1.8 inch up to half a inch, it was so irritating to shoot those 4 shots that strong and not get at least two twelves out of the 4 targets.
> 
> ...





It was nice to meet you this weekend Shawn. I'm the guy who was running the shoot and set the course. I will on occassion set a few shots on our field ranges just to open the eyes of some of the local blow hards who trash anyone shooting the fun class and walking through with a rangefinder. Depending on the blow hard i find it quite satisfying to ask how many 12's they shoot ono those targets!

Look forward to seeing you again.

Marc


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## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

Scott Bennett said:


> Mr. Morelli,
> 
> You are spot on with this post bro! I have been shooting 3d off and on for 23years and yes, I was the hardcore judge or go home kind of guy....but as you grow into adulthood and realize that your time is consumed by other priorities in life that keeps you from being able to judge or look at targets in order to compete at your potential, the known classes seem much more appealing to guys like me.
> 
> I agree...the Open Pro class is a dying breed.....


Put up a $250.00 entry fee in K50 and watch a dying class, last time I check K50 was growing like wildfire. Make the K50 a pro class and will see one day how many want to step up and shoot against guys like the top 3d pros.
DB


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## Kstigall (Feb 24, 2004)

STRICNINE said:


> showed me the scores of their first trips into the class.


My first K50 was the Regions shoot in Lawndale, NC this past weekend. Being that I was pretty unprepared, set sight tape and shot my first 6 3D targets of the year the previous Tuesday, I was mostly satisfied. 422 - 13 (12's), played it fairly safe.


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## FitaX10 (Aug 1, 2002)

573mms, My personal opinion, many of the diehard judge or go home 3d guys are looking for an excuse. I'm not talking about the guys that prefer unknown to known but the "that's the way 3D was meant to be" guys. If you take away the "excuse" of "my yardage was off" for a miss, it makes them look bad and the egos of many of the bubba type just can't seem to handle it. While 3D started as a game to help hunters in the off-season, it went the way of a target game many years ago. Anytime you make a game a competition, especially when you make it for money, you bring in the guys that want to win. You now have competitors with $1500 bows, $500 worth of stabilizers, $500 sights, $200 arrows and for what? To shoot better! I wish one of these "judge or go home" guys would explain to me (573mms) what the bad about not judging or a known class is. Other than, that's the way it has always been. Its a target game, there are scoring rings, hit what you aim at. if you don't like it go shoot traditional, oh wait, there are guys that are practicing and aiming there too so the guys that want to hit what they aim at win as well. How about this, go get you some targets, put them in your yard and judge all you want. I would say that if contingency money was in a known class like it is in the unknown class (pro) you would see a severe decline in the unknown pro class. The top tier unknown pros are amazing judgers of distance as well as amazing shooters, there are many others that shoot good but have those one or two targets per weekend that keep them out of the money. Not from shooting but judging. As for the NFAA being a place for known distance, the NFAA is dying a slow and painful death. While there are a couple of events per year outside of the indoor arena, there would be opportunities for them to shoot more if there was a reason. There are many NFAA pros that either do not judge at all or are not on that level and choose not to compete. With no contingency money in K50, there is no reason for them to come play the 3D game. Not many will go and donate $275 to the guys that are walking rangefinders when they have no chance of seeing any return. As for K50 being a pushover class for the spottie pros, there are already many spot shooters in and doing well. Aiming at a 3D target is different than aiming at a spot. To get to the top level in either known or unknown takes much dedication and an incredible amount of drive. Its a game and as such should be played and supported not castigated. 
I totally agree with Kstigal as we are not quite ready for the K50 to be renamed to K Pro, but I do see that Known classes are here to stay as demands on time and resources make the ability to spend time judging more than shooting fewer and fewer. Many of the Pros also have "normal" jobs so to say that Known is a "blue-collar" pro class is a bit of a slap in the face to those pros that do work and make the sacrifices or have the latitude to work on the difficult and time consuming aspect of judging. The known pro class will come and probably soon. As more of the youngsters start entering the adult classes you may see the known classes grow even larger as this is how they started as was stated earlier. 
My question is, What's wrong with a Known class? Please do not answer with "that's the way its always been". Evolve or die, look at the NFAA, the NFL, the NBA, NASCAR, FITA, all examples of the good and bad. Some evolved and are growing and some haven't and are dying. Which is better?


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

SonnyThomas said:


> Anyone look at the Tuscaloosa scores for K50 and Pro? K50, 23 with 400 and up (high 428). Open Pro, 36 with 400 and up (Tim G with 436 and all others 428 and down).





Daniel Boone said:


> Interesting but not at all surprising. The money will always bring the best shooters in pro class's.
> DB


I was sort of pointing out you can't go forward without looking back. Some note K45, K50, Pro and then in the future a Known Pro.



perdieu2011 said:


> And what does this prove??? What about the first 2 shoots???? To me it proves nothing? Two different classes..........not dissing the Pros at all because they can shoot lights out and I look up to everyone of them!!! But you give some of the pros the right yardage and maybe they will not shoot as good...but then on the other hand you give some of them the right yardage and they will shoot better!!! How many of the pros know every target to the half yard anyhow???


If you had looked it up like I did you would have found scores are still nearly equal. The want of K45, K50 and then a possibly a Known Pro class? I'd think a Known Pro class scores would have to really stand out to garner attention...



tmorelli said:


> Im not disagreeing in spirit but in this specific case, K50's lead peer group was also assessed zero's for shooting a target out of sequence on Sunday. Several groups of pros did the same on Saturday and did not receive zeros.


What I was noting was how close the scores were and I should have added the first two ProAms, K50 barely edging out the Pros by 6 and 10 points. Again, to me, to have a Known Pro class...it would need something to really draw attention to it...


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## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

FitaX10 said:


> 573mms, My personal opinion, many of the diehard judge or go home 3d guys are looking for an excuse. I'm not talking about the guys that prefer unknown to known but the "that's the way 3D was meant to be" guys. If you take away the "excuse" of "my yardage was off" for a miss, it makes them look bad and the egos of many of the bubba type just can't seem to handle it. While 3D started as a game to help hunters in the off-season, it went the way of a target game many years ago. Anytime you make a game a competition, especially when you make it for money, you bring in the guys that want to win. You now have competitors with $1500 bows, $500 worth of stabilizers, $500 sights, $200 arrows and for what? To shoot better! I wish one of these "judge or go home" guys would explain to me (573mms) what the bad about not judging or a known class is. Other than, that's the way it has always been. Its a target game, there are scoring rings, hit what you aim at. if you don't like it go shoot traditional, oh wait, there are guys that are practicing and aiming there too so the guys that want to hit what they aim at win as well. How about this, go get you some targets, put them in your yard and judge all you want. I would say that if contingency money was in a known class like it is in the unknown class (pro) you would see a severe decline in the unknown pro class. The top tier unknown pros are amazing judgers of distance as well as amazing shooters, there are many others that shoot good but have those one or two targets per weekend that keep them out of the money. Not from shooting but judging. As for the NFAA being a place for known distance, the NFAA is dying a slow and painful death. While there are a couple of events per year outside of the indoor arena, there would be opportunities for them to shoot more if there was a reason. There are many NFAA pros that either do not judge at all or are not on that level and choose not to compete. With no contingency money in K50, there is no reason for them to come play the 3D game. Not many will go and donate $275 to the guys that are walking rangefinders when they have no chance of seeing any return. As for K50 being a pushover class for the spottie pros, there are already many spot shooters in and doing well. Aiming at a 3D target is different than aiming at a spot. To get to the top level in either known or unknown takes much dedication and an incredible amount of drive. Its a game and as such should be played and supported not castigated.
> I totally agree with Kstigal as we are not quite ready for the K50 to be renamed to K Pro, but I do see that Known classes are here to stay as demands on time and resources make the ability to spend time judging more than shooting fewer and fewer. Many of the Pros also have "normal" jobs so to say that Known is a "blue-collar" pro class is a bit of a slap in the face to those pros that do work and make the sacrifices or have the latitude to work on the difficult and time consuming aspect of judging. The known pro class will come and probably soon. As more of the youngsters start entering the adult classes you may see the known classes grow even larger as this is how they started as was stated earlier.
> My question is, What's wrong with a Known class? Please do not answer with "that's the way its always been". Evolve or die, look at the NFAA, the NFL, the NBA, NASCAR, FITA, all examples of the good and bad. Some evolved and are growing and some haven't and are dying. Which is better?


 Not one thing wrong about known! But like you said NFAA dying and if this known distance is all that good why isnt it growing in leaps and bounds. Judging yardage is part of shooting 3d. Like many of us have shot it that way now for over 20years and were not complaining about it. Many of us like the challenge of judging yardage. Imigine that! I find shooting spots ( I do shoot it as often as I can) and known just a little on the boring side and why many 3ders dont shoot it, they actually like the judging yardage side of 3d. When they first introduced known yardage in my class at ASA I moved to all known 3d class. Just isnt for everyone. 3D been around a longtime. Some want to change the game so many of us love and that includes judging yardage. Just because you not able to be successful at a game like 3d and judging doesnt mean you change the game.
DB


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## tmorelli (Jul 31, 2005)

Daniel Boone said:


> Not one thing wrong about known! But like you said NFAA dying and if this known distance is all that good why isnt it growing in leaps and bounds. Judging yardage is part of shooting 3d. Like many of us have shot it that way now for over 20years and were not complaining about it. Many of us like the challenge of judging yardage. Imigine that! I find shooting spots ( I do shoot it as often as I can) and known just a little on the boring side and why many 3ders dont shoot it, they actually like the judging yardage side of 3d. When they first introduced known yardage in my class at ASA I moved to all known 3d class. Just isnt for everyone. 3D been around a longtime. Some want to change the game so many of us love and that includes judging yardage.
> DB


Seems like known distance is growing very quickly. Case in point \/\/\/




Tallcatt said:


> ASA certainly and quite obviously knows that the known distance element is very popular with the shooters and very important to ASA's success. On the other hand ASA gives the shooters a lot of choices and the opportunity for shooters to find their comfort level whether it be in a known distance class, a 1/2 and 1/2 class or an all unknown class. If shooters feel that they have a chance to compete they will come back. They have not only come back, but come back in record numbers.
> 
> ASA has 34 shooting classes. 12 classes shoot all unknown distance, 11 classes shoot all known distance, and 11 classes shoot 1/2 known distance and 1/2 unknown distance.
> 
> ...


There isn't a day that goes by that I don't get a call, or PM, or FB message about a guy switching to known distance....

Take a tiny little glimpse and look at the state level shoots....where is the attendance? Novice, OC, K45.... your biggest classes at each one. Then Hunter...and OB... the half/half classes...... then what are your smallest?


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## Kstigall (Feb 24, 2004)

Daniel Boone said:


> Not one thing wrong about known! But like you said NFAA dying and if this known distance is all that good why isnt it growing in leaps and bounds. Judging yardage is part of shooting 3d. Like many of us have shot it that way now for over 20years and were not complaining about it. Many of us like the challenge of judging yardage. Imigine that! I find shooting spots ( I do shoot it as often as I can) and known just a little on the boring side and why many 3ders dont shoot it, they actually like the judging yardage side of 3d. When they first introduced known yardage in my class at ASA I moved to all known 3d class. Just isnt for everyone. 3D been around a longtime. Some want to change the game so many of us love and that includes judging yardage.
> DB


The NFAA chose long ago to dismiss 3D...........which let the ASA sprout and the IBO to grow! The NFAA is not dying but rather is dead because it's very poorly organized, very poorly structured and very much suffered from poor vision many years ago and still does. The NFAA has only the Redding trail shoot and Indoor Nationals. Vegas is a WAF owned tournament. Other NFAA tournaments are very poorly attended. When they sold their CA property and moved I suspect that the NFAA basically became "Easton-Cull-nfaa"..... 

The NFAA and the ASA are vastly different. One chose to wither and die rather than evolve while the other is "working" to stay viable. The IBO seems to be more like the NFAA than the ASA in it's style of doing business and it's leadership.


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## FitaX10 (Aug 1, 2002)

Daniel Boone said:


> Not one thing wrong about known! But like you said NFAA dying and if this known distance is all that good why isnt it growing in leaps and bounds. Judging yardage is part of shooting 3d. Like many of us have shot it that way now for over 20years and were not complaining about it. Many of us like the challenge of judging yardage. Imigine that! I find shooting spots ( I do shoot it as often as I can) and known just a little on the boring side and why many 3ders dont shoot it, they actually like the judging yardage side of 3d. When they first introduced known yardage in my class at ASA I moved to all known 3d class. Just isnt for everyone. 3D been around a longtime. Some want to change the game so many of us love and that includes judging yardage. Just because you not able to be successful at a game like 3d and judging doesnt mean you change the game.
> DB


Well, to turn what you say back, Just because you are not able to be successful at a game like 3D and knowing how far it is doesn't mean you shouldn't change the game. 
I am sure that there are many that liked the game of football before all the rule changes and heaven forbid, wear a helmet but it has to grow as well. I was hoping for an answer that said why you like judging, not because we like the game we started with. The NFAA and its known distance game is dying or is dead already because of poor leadership and management not because of the game. Judging yardage WAS a part of 3D because there were no rangefinders worth a hoot to either hunt with or shoot with. That's what it started out as. With improvements in technology come changes to the game. I know many hunters from the beginning of 3D that used to pace off ranges and mark them from their treestand. Didn't make them a bad hunter but made them a smart hunter. Hit what you're shooting at. Ethically pertinent.


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## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

Kstigall said:


> The NFAA chose long ago to dismiss 3D...........which let the ASA sprout and the IBO to grow! The NFAA is not dying but rather is dead because it's very poorly organized, very poorly structured and very much suffered from poor vision many years ago and still does. The NFAA has only the Redding trail shoot and Indoor Nationals. Vegas is a WAF owned tournament. Other NFAA tournaments are very poorly attended. When they sold their CA property and moved I suspect that the NFAA basically became "Easton-Cull-nfaa".....
> 
> The NFAA and the ASA are vastly different. One chose to wither and die rather than evolve while the other is "working" to stay viable. The IBO seems to be more like the NFAA than the ASA in it's style of doing business and it's leadership.


My point is that 3d has been always judging yardage game for many years. Now for whatever reason some success in K45 class and now everyone wants to change the game of 3d like so many of us know it. There plenty of folks who still shoot 3d and judge yardage. If some of you had your way and it diffiantly shows in your posts you would eliminate judging yardage all together and change the game of 3d as it been for so many years. I'm certainly one of the old timers that see the game of 3d as more than just a spots shoot and honestly thats what know 3d all about. If you cant win judging yardage let change the game to where it benefits you. Dont feel that how it should be done. Im certianly glad the manfactuers are supporting the Pros and keep the game the same. 
DB


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## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

FitaX10 said:


> Well, to turn what you say back, Just because you are not able to be successful at a game like 3D and knowing how far it is doesn't mean you shouldn't change the game.
> I am sure that there are many that liked the game of football before all the rule changes and heaven forbid, wear a helmet but it has to grow as well. I was hoping for an answer that said why you like judging, not because we like the game we started with. The NFAA and its known distance game is dying or is dead already because of poor leadership and management not because of the game. Judging yardage WAS a part of 3D because there were no rangefinders worth a hoot to either hunt with or shoot with. That's what it started out as. With improvements in technology come changes to the game. I know many hunters from the beginning of 3D that used to pace off ranges and mark them from their treestand. Didn't make them a bad hunter but made them a smart hunter. Hit what you're shooting at. Ethically pertinent.


You seem to left out me saying I like and enjoy the challenge of judging yardage.:beer: I find just aiming and shooting a spot is boring and yes I fine known yardage boring and doubt I would be one of the few who would shoot it on a regular basis of course I love shooting most all archery and might do it if there wasnt any other choice. I answered your question openly and honestly as I can. You didnt like my answer.:wink:
DB


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## FitaX10 (Aug 1, 2002)

Daniel Boone said:


> You seem to left out me saying I like and enjoy the challenge of judging yardage.:beer: I find just aiming and shooting a spot is boring and yes I fine known yardage boring and doubt I would be one of the few who would shoot it on a regular basis of course I love shooting most all archery and might do it if there wasnt any other choice. I answered your question openly and honestly as I can. You didnt like my answer.:wink:
> DB


I guess I was looking for a bit more. Why do you like to judge? What is the thrill? Would you participate in a judging only competition? Its not that I didn't like your answer, I want more:wink: Known yardage 3D as has been stated is unlike spot shooting as you have no "spot" to aim at so you still have to pay attention and know your targets. I have missed many 12s hitting the spot I aimed at only to find out that wasn't the right spot :embara: I like to shoot, what limited time I have to spend practicing I don't want to spend judging distance. I want to shoot. Fortunately I don't have to, there is a venue to play the game and continue to just shoot. Almost every interview I have heard or read by the pros say they spend way more time judging than shooting. Sorry but I like to shoot.


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

Kstigall said:


> The NFAA chose long ago to dismiss 3D...........which let the ASA sprout and the IBO to grow! The NFAA is not dying but rather is dead because it's very poorly organized, very poorly structured and very much suffered from poor vision many years ago and still does. The NFAA has only the Redding trail shoot and Indoor Nationals. Vegas is a WAF owned tournament. Other NFAA tournaments are very poorly attended. When they sold their CA property and moved I suspect that the NFAA basically became "Easton-Cull-nfaa".....
> 
> The NFAA and the ASA are vastly different. One chose to wither and die rather than evolve while the other is "working" to stay viable. The IBO seems to be more like the NFAA than the ASA in it's style of doing business and it's leadership.



You got this right....I would have said stagnant instead of dead. There when it happened, the wrench that wrecked the NFAA or the start of the wreck was the TNUSA merger and then it failing.... I sat in the meeting that informed of the merger and thought then it wrong. Following came the decline in numbers for the NFAA and still the Spot Shooter regime did nothing. Our state all but collapsed, dropping from 23 clubs to 13. Virtually broke, raffles for firearms helped keep it afloat.

The NFAA members and number of clubs appears leveled off and I doubt seriously if it will grow to the peak it held for so long. The Easton/Bruce South Dakota complex....a drowning man grasping at a straw.... Refusing states to grow through the more desired shooting venues, namely 3D. Our club hosted the IAA 3D Championship and the IAA received their "cut" which more than equaled all other income combined from other IAA events that year and still 3D looked upon with distain - the Spot Shooter Regime.
Already noted is it hard to find a Field event. NAA and FITA virtually unheard of here in Illinois. And the same for the IBO here in Illinois. Poor insight for both the NFAA and IBO lacks real description... 

Hands on approach allowed by ASA. Texas has a new class that if successful may result in a across the board class for the NFAA. Give Mike T another Atta boy.


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## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

FitaX10 said:


> I guess I was looking for a bit more. Why do you like to judge? What is the thrill? Would you participate in a judging only competition? Its not that I didn't like your answer, I want more:wink: Known yardage 3D as has been stated is unlike spot shooting as you have no "spot" to aim at so you still have to pay attention and know your targets. I have missed many 12s hitting the spot I aimed at only to find out that wasn't the right spot :embara: I like to shoot, what limited time I have to spend practicing I don't want to spend judging distance. I want to shoot. Fortunately I don't have to, there is a venue to play the game and continue to just shoot. Almost every interview I have heard or read by the pros say they spend way more time judging than shooting. Sorry but I like to shoot.


 3d grew as a judging targets event from the beginning. If you dont see or understand the challenge of judging yardage all I can say it not easy and often anything in life that not easy folks tend to not like to do. I guarantee those top pros spend allot of time learning to judge targets and there craft. I understand why they wouldn't want to change the game after many years. But let make no mistake as good as those guys are judging there great archers as well. They toned there shooting skills to be the best as well. I have a hard time trying to understand why the american 900 round not more popular event. I myself enjoy it. 
dB


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## Scott Bennett (Aug 12, 2012)

You know....I sit back and hear about the contingency money in the K50 class...but several days ago I sent ASA an email on April 3rd regarding my company possibly sponsoring several amateur classes....yet, there is no response as of today....I hear Bowjunky talk about an endemic sponsor stepping up to the plate....but I am compelled to think that maybe, just maybe there is a reason why these endemic's are not sponsoring the ASA today....

Oh and for what its worth, I haven't shot an ASA tournament in 11 years.....yet, my company could possibly be willing to put up some serious money in an effort to "grow" and honor these amateur shooters who work just as hard as these "pros" but don't have the time to judge the targets or practice as much to compete with or donate to the walking rangefinders.....

Just my 2cents....my offer will not stand forever......


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## FitaX10 (Aug 1, 2002)

Scott Bennett said:


> You know....I sit back and hear about the contingency money in the K50 class...but several days ago I sent ASA an email on April 3rd regarding my company possibly sponsoring several amateur classes....yet, there is no response as of today....I hear Bowjunky talk about an endemic sponsor stepping up to the plate....but I am compelled to think that maybe, just maybe there is a reason why these endemic's are not sponsoring the ASA today....
> 
> Oh and for what its worth, I haven't shot an ASA tournament in 11 years.....yet, my company could possibly be willing to put up some serious money in an effort to "grow" and honor these amateur shooters who work just as hard as these "pros" but don't have the time to judge the targets or practice as much to compete with or donate to the walking rangefinders.....
> 
> Just my 2cents....my offer will not stand forever......


Thanks Scott Bennett, I hope your offer gets acted upon.


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## okarcher (Jul 21, 2002)

I'll say this comparing Known 3D to a spot shooting contest is ridicolous. I've shot 3D for years unknown and known and have won at high levels(Not Pro). The game is the same to me except for the fact that after I judge the target I hit with a rangefinder before I shoot it. Target knowledge is one of the biggest advantage guys who own a range have over the guys who don't own a range. Then the target knowledge roles over into the ability to judge and aim well on 3d targets(I said aim, not shoot). Im still a descent yardage judge and my be close to as good as I ever was right since I've really started working on it again this year to see if I want to go back to semi or stay K50. Saying all that to say this I enjoy 3D which is how it should be, but for those who think known 3d is a spot shoot is full of it. In fact I know several guys who can't shoot as good as scores in known as they can in unknown. They say it puts to much preasure on them to hit 12's taking away the yardage excuse. DB, you do have one thing right the Pro's will always be where the money is. Its real simple if you want to shoot unknown the please do there is a class for you and if you want to shoot known well do it. Just ever tell me why i'm shooting known that my game is easier or not as challenging or isn't what 3D is about cause you'd be wrong on all three acounts and if any known shooter said the same about unknown they'd be wrong too. 3D is about the challenge, the fun, friends and about competing to be the best you can. I may not always compete in a known class but it is part of 3D now and it is here to stay and it has been good for the sport. A few of you guys need to open your minds a little and leave your opinions behind and take a look at the sport as a whole.


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## tmorelli (Jul 31, 2005)

FitaX10 said:


> Thanks Scott Bennett, I hope your offer gets acted upon.


Me too.


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## okarcher (Jul 21, 2002)

FitaX10 said:


> Thanks Scott Bennett, I hope your offer gets acted upon.


Me, three!


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## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

I talked to sam after the shoot and when he told me the story about getting a zero I thought he said that both a and b was on the same course and the course was also zig zag so it was very confusing finding the next shot and they walked up to the target 16 stake and shot the shot but it was for the other course. The stake had a different color on it for each course and there were many targets to skip inbetween targets with a weird zig zag sometimes. He said that the group that they were following all day had already moved on so they approached a vacated stake and just didn't realize that it was the wrong course. So I didn't think he said that they picked the correct stake and shot the wrong target, they picked the wrong 16th stake which caused them to shoot the wrong target.


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## Kstigall (Feb 24, 2004)

Daniel Boone said:


> My point is that 3d has been always judging yardage game for many years. Now for whatever reason some success in K45 class and now everyone wants to change the game of 3d like so many of us know it. There plenty of folks who still shoot 3d and judge yardage. If some of you had your way and it diffiantly shows in your posts you would eliminate judging yardage all together and change the game of 3d as it been for so many years. I'm certainly one of the old timers that see the game of 3d as more than just a spots shoot and honestly thats what know 3d all about. If you cant win judging yardage let change the game to where it benefits you. Dont feel that how it should be done. Im certianly glad the manfactuers are supporting the Pros and keep the game the same.
> DB


Not so! This thread seems to be more about the "judgers" wanting to squash Known distance 3D by turning K50 into a Pro class thereby putting up a monster barrier for amateur known distance 3D'ers. I know for a fact that the guys I shot with in K45 last year never spoke of doing away with unknown distance 3D!

No one is forcing anyone to shoot Known distance 3D. There's little reason that a person should only have the choice between shooting unknown distance 3D or to stay home. Being afraid of change and growth reminds me so much of the NFAA. I was in the middle of the information/technology/automation boom beginning in '82 and for 15 years or more I dealt with people, and sometimes still do, that quietly fought any type of "change"........ To avoid growth only because it is different and unfamiliar ultimately leads to failure. The ASA MUST provide a product that is desirable today and into the future or they will eventually fail. I understand that the folks that shoot the unknown distance classes resent the massive growth and popularity of the Known distance classes. But Known distance 3D is NOT bad or better it is only somewhat different. I would not at all be surprised to find one day that the pendulum has swung back and unknown distance 3D gains popularity.

By the way, I guess I'm an "old 3D'er though I shot my first ASA national tournament fairly recently ('06). I began shooting a little local 3D in the late '80's.


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## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

okarcher said:


> I'll say this comparing Known 3D to a spot shooting contest is ridicolous. I've shot 3D for years unknown and known and have won at high levels(Not Pro). The game is the same to me except for the fact that after I judge the target I hit with a rangefinder before I shoot it. Target knowledge is one of the biggest advantage guys who own a range have over the guys who don't own a range. Then the target knowledge roles over into the ability to judge and aim well on 3d targets(I said aim, not shoot). Im still a descent yardage judge and my be close to as good as I ever was right since I've really started working on it again this year to see if I want to go back to semi or stay K50. Saying all that to say this I enjoy 3D which is how it should be, but for those who think known 3d is a spot shoot is full of it. In fact I know several guys who can't shoot as good as scores in known as they can in unknown. They say it puts to much preasure on them to hit 12's taking away the yardage excuse. DB, you do have one thing right the Pro's will always be where the money is. Its real simple if you want to shoot unknown the please do there is a class for you and if you want to shoot known well do it. Just ever tell me why i'm shooting known that my game is easier or not as challenging or isn't what 3D is about cause you'd be wrong on all three acounts and if any known shooter said the same about unknown they'd be wrong too. 3D is about the challenge, the fun, friends and about competing to be the best you can. I may not always compete in a known class but it is part of 3D now and it is here to stay and it has been good for the sport. A few of you guys need to open your minds a little and leave your opinions behind and take a look at the sport as a whole.


Chad you want ever one to be honest. Everyone being honest. You judge yardage well and have I watched you shoot against the pros. Hold your own against both in known and unknown 3d. Yet you choose marked yardage! Why wouldn't someone like you atleast try and go pro? Im just asking if known yardage goes pro will you hit the pro known circuit and shoot it? Im curious how many will actually go pro known in the future if they had to shoot against guys like Levi and other top guns. Because let face it in almost ever pro event we know who the top 10% are going to win. Pro class is never going to be an easier win regardless if it known or Unknown. I'm all for having both but let not try and tear down the pro class as it is today. Im asking are you in support of Pros or not?
DB


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## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

Kstigall said:


> Not so! This thread seems to be more about the "judgers" wanting to squash Known distance 3D by turning K50 into a Pro class thereby putting up a monster barrier for amateur known distance 3D'ers. I know for a fact that the guys I shot with in K45 last year never spoke of doing away with unknown distance 3D!
> 
> No one is forcing anyone to shoot Known distance 3D. There's little reason that a person should only have the choice between shooting unknown distance 3D or to stay home. Being afraid of change and growth reminds me so much of the NFAA. I was in the middle of the information/technology/automation boom beginning in '82 and for 15 years or more I dealt with people, and sometimes still do, that quietly fought any type of "change"........ To avoid growth only because it is different and unfamiliar ultimately leads to failure. The ASA MUST provide a product that is desirable today and into the future or they will eventually fail. I understand that the folks that shoot the unknown distance classes resent the massive growth and popularity of the Known distance classes. But Known distance 3D is NOT bad or better it is only somewhat different. I would not at all be surprised to find one day that the pendulum has swung back and unknown distance 3D gains popularity.
> 
> By the way, I guess I'm an "old 3D'er though I shot my first ASA national tournament fairly recently ('06). I began shooting a little local 3D in the late '80's.


I don't think any one resent anyone shooting known. We all understand why someone wants to shoot known, thats not hard to figure out. Many have stated the reasons they don't like judging yaradge and so on. I dont understand the argument there. I keep seeing everyone trying to make a case to promote known yardage. Thats not going to sit well with those who like the game like it been for many years.
DB
DB


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## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

Scott Bennett said:


> You know....I sit back and hear about the contingency money in the K50 class...but several days ago I sent ASA an email on April 3rd regarding my company possibly sponsoring several amateur classes....yet, there is no response as of today....I hear Bowjunky talk about an endemic sponsor stepping up to the plate....but I am compelled to think that maybe, just maybe there is a reason why these endemic's are not sponsoring the ASA today....
> 
> Oh and for what its worth, I haven't shot an ASA tournament in 11 years.....yet, my company could possibly be willing to put up some serious money in an effort to "grow" and honor these amateur shooters who work just as hard as these "pros" but don't have the time to judge the targets or practice as much to compete with or donate to the walking rangefinders.....
> 
> Just my 2cents....my offer will not stand forever......


So everyone agreeing the amatuers should get the contengcy money from manufactuers? I thought we were disscussing K50 turning pro for more contengcy money.
DB


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## Scott Bennett (Aug 12, 2012)

Daniel Boone said:


> So everyone agreeing the amatuers should get the contengcy money from manufactuers? I thought we were disscussing K50 turning pro for more contengcy money.
> DB


K50 today is an amateur class......


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## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

Scott Bennett said:


> K50 today is an amateur class......


Were comparing to a pro class! Thats what I thought we were discussing making it a pro class in the future. 
DB


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## Scott Bennett (Aug 12, 2012)

Daniel Boone said:


> Were comparing to a pro class! Thats what I thought we were discussing making it a pro class in the future.
> DB


So ASA shouldn't give my company the time or day if we are interested in sponsoring the amateur classes instead of the pro classes?

As mentioned, K50 is currently an amateur class and I made a proposal to sponsor this class as is in order to give these guys a chance to be recognized just like the pros. 

Maybe I am overthinking this.....


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## Mark1976 (Apr 12, 2012)

I have just realized that cell phones aren't real phones!!! I grew up with a rotary phone with a 15' cord on it and I many liked them just the way they were!!!! Don't even get me started on microwaves and typewriters...!


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## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

Scott Bennett said:


> So ASA shouldn't give my company the time or day if we are interested in sponsoring the amateur classes instead of the pro classes?
> 
> As mentioned, K50 is currently an amateur class and I made a proposal to sponsor this class as is in order to give these guys a chance to be recognized just like the pros.
> 
> Maybe I am overthinking this.....


It was my understanding ASA tried this in the beginning and the manufactuer pulled out. I myself would think Mike Terrell would look at any sponsor serious if it benefited ASA. My understanding from bowjunky podcast and K50 guys speaking they want the K50 to go to a pro class with a $250.00 entry fee. I understand what your saying and only ASA could give you a response. 
DB


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## Mark1976 (Apr 12, 2012)

Scott Bennette, I am also working on possibly getting a huge sponsorship for all classes through one of the biggest auto parts companies in the nation...so let me know if you have any success with ASA! Thanks


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## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

Mark1976 said:


> Scott Bennette, I am also working on possibly getting a huge sponsorship for all classes through one of the biggest auto parts companies in the nation...so let me know if you have any success with ASA! Thanks


It been said to me with sponsorship a certain amount of control is given away and sometimes an organization like ASA isnt willing to give control for anything. Lot more to it then what most realize. Good luck to both of you guys though.
DB


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## tmorelli (Jul 31, 2005)

I know that neither of these are directed at me but I'd like to respond anyway.



Daniel Boone said:


> Chad you want ever one to be honest. Everyone being honest. You judge yardage well and have I watched you shoot against the pros. Hold your own against both in known and unknown 3d. Yet you choose marked yardage! Why wouldn't someone like you atleast try and go pro? Im just asking if known yardage goes pro will you hit the pro known circuit and shoot it? Im curious how many will actually go pro known in the future if they had to shoot against guys like Levi and other top guns. Because let face it in almost ever pro event we know who the top 10% are going to win. Pro class is never going to be an easier win regardless if it known or Unknown. I'm all for having both but let not try and tear down the pro class as it is today. Im asking are you in support of Pros or not?
> DB


Why not "go pro"? I can't speak for Chad but I myself am still putting one foot in front of the other in that direction. Admittedly, I'm doing it with hesitance and watching the pro-class carefully. I've said my piece about the fact that the class is dwindling. I also can't help but feel that the closer you get to the top of this game, the less joy there is in it. The fact remains that I decided long ago that I didn't want to try to make my living at/with/in archery. In it's current state, I'm not sure a man can find success that justifies the expense without that level of investment. I remain very conscious of my level of investment.... every dollar spent, practice hour, tournament trip, etc... they all have a cost to my family. 

If pro went known, I'd make the move. Why?... because I can shoot competitively in known yardage without raising my level of investment (time and $) well beyond where it is now. I do believe this would open the door for many more like me...be they NFAA pros or up-and-comers through the ranks. Unknown takes a level of commitment that isn't realistic for an enormous % of people. I say that understanding and believing that "pro" is a title that should be reserved for the invested and the elite of the sport. However, the current state is producing a dying Open Pro class. I believe someone needs to be asking why and acting on it. This won't come from inside the pro class. Until the day the manufacturers look at the game and say "it's over boys. You're class doesn't have marketing value...like Limited Pro." the open pro's have no reason to think proactively... the smaller the class is, the more it favors the few.... until that day.

I don't know anyone in K50 who is advocating for a Known Pro that is looking for "an easier win." All of us who would advocate this (I do, with conditions on planning/allowance for continued growth) would fully expect more attendance by great shooters. 

I also don't know anyone who is advocating "tearing down" the Open Pro class. I think I'm the only one who is even saying... it is tearing itself down and somebody better do something about it.

Do i support the Pros? Sure....to the same extent that I support archery. If somebody doesn't do something about Open Pro, there won't be one to support. As I say that, I'll say this again... known yardage opens the doors to many more people to play the game. I don't want two pro classes. Like the pro's, I think there are too many classes as it is. So, if you want to grow the sport and crown a real champion, make it all known distance. If you don't, leave it as it is and we'll all sit around and reminisce about pro 3d archery....it's just a matter of how soon.



Daniel Boone said:


> I don't think any one resent anyone shooting known. We all understand why someone wants to shoot known, thats not hard to figure out. Many have stated the reasons they don't like judging yaradge and so on. I dont understand the argument there. I keep seeing everyone trying to make a case to promote known yardage. Thats not going to sit well with those who like the game like it been for many years.
> DB
> DB


Just to clarify, it isn't about "not liking to judge" it is about the level of investment required to do so competitively at a high level. 

As I've said before, if you like unknown yardage.... what are you doing about preserving it?


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## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

tmorelli said:


> I know that neither of these are directed at me but I'd like to respond anyway.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Im confused because I thought we were discussing the K50 class wanting the contingency the pros got! Just like was discussed in the Bowjunky podcast. Tony I never see the pros worrying about there class. They seem to be happy with the way it is! Not sure it needs preserving as you say! Pro class may never have the amount of shooters because it not easy shooting in that class. Would be the same if you had a K50 Pro class. Not allot would shoot it because it not fun getting beat or shooting against the best. Always be someone that thinks because they shoot better the other guys got the advantage. 
DB


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## cenochs (May 2, 2007)

tmorelli said:


> I know that neither of these are directed at me but I'd like to respond anyway.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Perfectly put Tony


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## cenochs (May 2, 2007)

Daniel Boone said:


> Im confused because I thought we were discussing the K50 class wanting the contingency the pros got! Just like was discussed in the Bowjunky podcast. Tony I never see the pros worrying about there class. They seem to be happy with the way it is! Not sure it needs preserving as you say! Pro class may never have the amount of shooters because it not easy shooting in that class. Would be the same if you had a K50 Pro class. Not allot would shoot it because it not fun getting beat or shooting against the best. Always be someone that thinks because they shoot better the other guys got the advantage.
> DB


DB do you have a man crush on the Pros? ! JK


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## tmorelli (Jul 31, 2005)

Daniel Boone said:


> Im confused because I thought we were discussing the K50 class wanting the contingency the pros got! Just like was discussed in the Bowjunky podcast. Tony I never see the pros worrying about there class. They seem to be happy with the way it is! Not sure it needs preserving as you say! Pro class may never have the amount of shooters because it not easy shooting in that class. Would be the same if you had a K50 Pro class. Not allot would shoot it because it not fun getting beat or shooting against the best. Always be someone that thinks because they shoot better the other guys got the advantage.
> DB


Maybe I missed it but I haven't seen anyone asking for k50 to get the same contingency as Open Pro. Several have said "it would be nice to get manufacturer support or recognition." 

Most aren't advocating for k50 to be named a pro class. Most are saying they'd like to see a known pro class eventually. My spin on that is it will happen eventually but I don't want to see additional pro classes added. 

IF it were to happen as an additional pro class, I'm concerned for the same reasons you implied above.... The current hierarchy doesn't work. There must be a semi pro level of known for there to be a pro-known....so renaming the existing semi-pro/pro class to "pro" and raising the entry doesn't fix anything short or long term. 

I agree the pros are happy the way it is (I hate stereotyping them all and assuming this). But, are the sponsors happy the way it is? Will they all be happy in a few years? Have you noticed the declining population of pros?


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## Tallcatt (Jul 27, 2003)

Scott Bennett said:


> So ASA shouldn't give my company the time or day if we are interested in sponsoring the amateur classes instead of the pro classes?
> 
> As mentioned, K50 is currently an amateur class and I made a proposal to sponsor this class as is in order to give these guys a chance to be recognized just like the pros.
> 
> Maybe I am overthinking this.....


K50 is actually kind of a "hybrid class". Although it is not a "Pro" class any pro can shoot in K50 if they choose. Keith Trail, Dave Cousins, Mike Braden and Russell Payne just to name a few have all won ASA Pro/Ams in K50.

From the ASA rules.....

Known 50 Open 50 yards, 290 FPS, Known 
Anyone required to compete in semi-pro or above may compete in this class. ASA membership is required. Pro Certification is optional.


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## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

cenochs said:


> DB do you have a man crush on the Pros? ! JK


 Pro are the best of the best and for that reason, Yes Im certainly a fan of the pros. Thread was discussing making the k50 a Pro class. We were comparing the K50 to the pros right in the title. et i happen to know and watch the semi pro class's and K50 guys and where they place. Im a fan of good archery. Cenochs if you notice on any day of the week many watch the pros in all sports.

DB


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## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

tmorelli said:


> Maybe I missed it but I haven't seen anyone asking for k50 to get the same contingency as Open Pro. Several have said "it would be nice to get manufacturer support or recognition."
> 
> Most aren't advocating for k50 to be named a pro class. Most are saying they'd like to see a known pro class eventually. My spin on that is it will happen eventually but I don't want to see additional pro classes added.
> 
> ...


Maybe I missed something. Bowjunky and the podcast certainly made it clear and Keith Trail certainly wants a $250.00 entry fee and Pro class. Which I would think any K50 guy should want to see sometime in the future if there any chances for contingency money of large amounts. If I witnessed it this year Elite Archery jumped right in feet first into the Pro Class. So I see in the future others doing the same. I see young semi pros moving up in to the class and future top guns hopefully. My question to you is when are you going to go Pro?
DB


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## tmorelli (Jul 31, 2005)

So, are there more Open Pro shooters today than there was 20 years ago? 15 years ago? 10 years ago? 5 years ago?

I know the answer to each. There are less at each interval. Attendance fell badly again around 5 years ago. It hasn't shown signs of recovery. 

So, 5 years from now, if no changes are made, is it reasonable to expect anything but a continued decline? 

What are the consequences of this? Where is the threshold for the manufacturers who make pro archery possible today?


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## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

tmorelli said:


> So, are there more Open Pro shooters today than there was 20 years ago? 15 years ago? 10 years ago? 5 years ago?
> 
> I know the answer to each. There are less at each interval. Attendance fell badly again around 5 years ago. It hasn't shown signs of recovery.
> 
> ...



I would rather have 50 good pros in a class than 100 average. Will see when known yardage has it pro class how many step up and shoot it. I for one Im 100% looking forward to seeing you traveling and shooting pro class. Should be the goal of ever accomplished archer. Elite Archer sure not having any regrets!
DB


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## perdieu2011 (May 16, 2011)

Keith Trail isn't the only one that wants a $250 entry fee :wink:


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## tmorelli (Jul 31, 2005)

Daniel Boone said:


> I would rather have 50 good pros in a class than 100 average. Will see when known yardage has it pro class how many step up and shoot it. I for one Im 100% looking forward to seeing you traveling and shooting pro class. Should be the goal of ever accomplished archer. Elite Archer sure not having any regrets!
> DB



50 would be more than the major 3d's are averaging now. How few is too few? 

It happened to limited pro already. It dwindles.....and dwindles....and one day, the mfrs say "no more" and its gone. 

I guess everyone is gonna sit back and watch it happen....all over the view that "3d is judging."


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## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

perdieu2011 said:


> Keith Trail isn't the only one that wants a $250 entry fee :wink:


I'm sure he not! One day will see it and see how many put up the larger entry fee.
DB


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## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

tmorelli said:


> 50 would be more than the major 3d's are averaging now. How few is too few?
> 
> It happened to limited pro already. It dwindles.....and dwindles....and one day, the mfrs say "no more" and its gone.
> 
> I guess everyone is gonna sit back and watch it happen....all over the view that "3d is judging."


Right now it doesn't seem to be a problem. But if Levi and Tim keep shooting the scores they are Im sure not many want a butt whooping but I do appreciate the young guns like Marlow's who aren't afraid to jump in the pros. Those guys are the future.
DB


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## tmorelli (Jul 31, 2005)

Daniel Boone said:


> Right now it doesn't seem to be a problem.


I just don't see how you can say that. 
The new pros don't outweigh the guys moving to senior. The class is aging and dwindling. Senior Pro is much larger than Open Pro. Why is that?


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## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

tmorelli said:


> I just don't see how you can say that.
> The new pros don't outweigh the guys moving to senior. The class is aging and dwindling. Senior Pro is much larger than Open Pro. Why is that?


Will see in the future Tony but Im betting man in five years there will still be a Pro class in 3d unmarked. Maybe even more contingency players than before. 
DB


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## tmorelli (Jul 31, 2005)

Daniel Boone said:


> Will see in the future Tony but Im betting man in five years there will still be a Pro class in 3d unmarked. Maybe even more contingency players than before.
> DB


I hope you're right.


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## CMA121885 (Sep 7, 2009)

No ones "afraid" DB! Quit stirring the freaking pot! You post more controversial crap than anyone on this forum! Way to help the sport grow!! No one on here is calling out the open pro shooters, and you also dont see the open pro shooters calling the k50 shooters out! You dont shoot k50 and honestly it dont pertain to you. 

I can go back through your started threads and most topics you start are to generate a arguement. One day 3dit will be mostly known, i understand thats not the way it was when you started but equipment has changed since you started...i dont see yiu shooting a old bear whitetail II! So whats the big deal about a possible change now? (Other than its not changing to your way!)


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## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

CMA121885 said:


> No ones "afraid" DB! Quit stirring the freaking pot! You post more controversial crap than anyone on this forum! Way to help the sport grow!! No one on here is calling out the open pro shooters, and you also dont see the open pro shooters calling the k50 shooters out! You dont shoot k50 and honestly it dont pertain to you.
> 
> I can go back through your started threads and most topics you start are to generate a arguement. One day 3dit will be mostly known, i understand thats not the way it was when you started but equipment has changed since you started...i dont see yiu shooting a old bear whitetail II! So whats the big deal about a possible change now? (Other than its not changing to your way!)


It a (disscussion forum) and everyone entitled to there opionion. Been around this sport long enough to have an opinion and realize exactly how it is. Many pros have made there say about the K50 class. You go back to singing ditty do dah all day long. You dont have a qlue what I have posted here. What I happen to notice is others disscuss and guys like you think you got it figured out. If you cant disscuss then make a post like this. 

DB


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## CMA121885 (Sep 7, 2009)

Im pretty sure i have it figured out. You want everyone to learn to judge. But most of us dont have the time to dedicate to that. Yiur signature says archery is a addiction to you....same goes for most of us. So for all the support we give ASA , why cant the blue collar guys have the same opportunity? 

Most pro shooters, especially at the top, work in the archery industry. They have ALL the resources to be where they are. Did tou ever make it to pro? If not was it because you have a job outside archery and didnt have the time to dedicate to it? Eould you have liked to have a opportunity to shoot pro? I think so, if archery is in fact a addiction...

I work with scott bennett who is in fact trying to sponsor k50/ameture classes. THATS the heart beat of our sport is the ametures. Say what you. If the ametures arent shooting for something worth shooting for most will quit. Do you realize how many shooters would continue to shoot with a reason?


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## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

CMA121885 said:


> Im pretty sure i have it figured out. You want everyone to learn to judge. But most of us dont have the time to dedicate to that. Yiur signature says archery is a addiction to you....same goes for most of us. So for all the support we give ASA , why cant the blue collar guys have the same opportunity?
> 
> Most pro shooters, especially at the top, work in the archery industry. They have ALL the resources to be where they are. Did tou ever make it to pro? If not was it because you have a job outside archery and didnt have the time to dedicate to it? Eould you have liked to have a opportunity to shoot pro? I think so, if archery is in fact a addiction...
> 
> I work with scott bennett who is in fact trying to sponsor k50/ameture classes. THATS the heart beat of our sport is the ametures. Say what you. If the ametures arent shooting for something worth shooting for most will quit. Do you realize how many shooters would continue to shoot with a reason?


You act like Im totally against known. Tony and Chad are good friends who I wish them all the luck in the world in that class. Others to including Trail and Sam. There a place for known in 3d. Im all for it and open it up to every pro whether he shoots known or unknown. Then you got a real pro class that manufactuers will be willing to pay contingency in it. You just think you got me figured out. I want whats best for the pros as a whole.

DB


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## DeepFried (May 15, 2009)

As someone who has shyed away from 3D because I'm not great at judging yardage beyond 40 yards, seeing the known yardage shoots has been the most appealing thing to make me want to try 3D again. I believe it can greatly help the sport grow.


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## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

DeepFried said:


> As someone who has shyed away from 3D because I'm not great at judging yardage beyond 40 yards, seeing the known yardage shoots has been the most appealing thing to make me want to try 3D again. I believe it can greatly help the sport grow.


Shoot this weekend at Tryon, Ok. ASA qaulifier and I think you should go give it a shot. Another shoot coming up in Paris, Tx. ASA Pro am go give it a shot.
There all marked distance shoot at my local club on the 19th, Wagoner Archery on the 19th. Your more than welcome to come shoot it as well.
DB


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## DeepFried (May 15, 2009)

Daniel Boone said:


> Shoot this weekend at Tryon, Ok. ASA qaulifier and I think you should go give it a shot. Another shoot coming up in Paris, Tx. ASA Pro am go give it a shot.
> There all marked distance shoot at my local club on the 19th, Wagoner Archery on the 19th. Your more than welcome to come shoot it as well.
> DB


My bow is at Coyote Bluff getting some new threads from Darrel. Should have it back in a couple weeks. Maybe I'll try a shoot or two soon.


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## Scott Bennett (Aug 12, 2012)

DeepFried said:


> As someone who has shyed away from 3D because I'm not great at judging yardage beyond 40 yards, seeing the known yardage shoots has been the most appealing thing to make me want to try 3D again. I believe it can greatly help the sport grow.


Now THAT my friend is what its all about!!! That's what you call "growing" archery....great job and major congrats to you for even thinking about giving archery a go again.....


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## Ky*Bowhunter (Aug 18, 2013)

There are very few who have the ability and the gift to judge yardage and shoot extremely well and these people truely are the pinnacle of the sport and true pro's. They can do it all. If you start paying big contingency to known 50 then everything starts to get watered down i think. To me 3d is where ydg judging means just as much as shooting. There are other formats to see how you stack up the the pros at known ydg. Judging yardage is just part of the game. If you cant do it so be it. If you want to win big money then get out and put in some hard work and make it happen. People just dont wake up one day and become human rangefinders. Hard work and determination got the too pros where they are. Known 50 shouldnt get full pro contingency because theyre only playing half the game.


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## STRICNINE (Oct 22, 2012)

Daniel Boone said:


> I'm sure he not! One day will see it and see how many put up the larger entry fee.
> DB


I'm curious how many in the Open Pro class pay their entry fees and travel expenses. It all comes down to this.......money. lol


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## shootist (Aug 28, 2003)

Ky*Bowhunter said:


> Known 50 shouldnt get full pro contingency because theyre only playing half the game.


I certainly do not disagree with your entire statement, but I do take issue with this sentence. Contingency is not something given for the level of difficulty. It is given because a manufacturer believes that the money is helping their company. In most cases, it is a way to reward a top shooter who the company thinks brings them sales equal to or greater than the amount they pay out. 

It was certainly more difficult to shoot with fingers than with a release aid, and it definitely is a more "pure" form of archery (not as pure as the traditional style equipment of course), but there came a point where hardly anybody was using fingers to shoot so the manufacturer's had nothing to gain by paying shooters that shot in the Limited Pro class. 

Contingency is all about sales and marketing.


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## Garceau (Sep 3, 2010)

Daniel Boone said:


> I would rather have 50 good pros in a class than 100 average. DB


What do the Pros in the class want? 50 good ones or a 100 average ones? Im betting the handful that are always near contention would rather 100 plus average or less than average


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## Garceau (Sep 3, 2010)

Ky*Bowhunter said:


> Known 50 shouldnt get full pro contingency because theyre only playing half the game.


Half of what game? Half of the game you play or believe in, but they are playing the game to the fullest of their rules.


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## okarcher (Jul 21, 2002)

Here is the deal on raising entry fees in K50. Most if not all of the Pro's get so much money for each tourny to help pay entry, travel and lodging. If you raise the entry in K50 and no mfg's support the shooters then yes I guaruntee the #'s would fall off. Anyone who has tried to shoot Pro or Sr. Pro and pay their on way normally don't last long unless their winning or they are finacially well off. Just raising the entry and calling or even adding a known Pro class does nothing without the support of the mfg's. And no one in the pod cast said anything about getting what the pro's are getting in contingency. I personally am good with what the bow company(Strother) im shooting for pays, just wish other bow companies would follow suit and do the same, as well as some of the other mfg's in archery and at least bump or contingency payouts to those of the Semi's in which we pay the same entry fee. I will say this im dropping the whole Known Pro thing til we have numbers higher than the Pro class. We did use to have 4 Pro classes until limited went under. Thats why I think a Known Pro may work and could take over that position with better #'s and greater return for the mfg's.


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## okarcher (Jul 21, 2002)

Daniel Boone said:


> I would rather have 50 good pros in a class than 100 average. Will see when known yardage has it pro class how many step up and shoot it. I for one Im 100% looking forward to seeing you traveling and shooting pro class. Should be the goal of ever accomplished archer. Elite Archer sure not having any regrets!
> DB


You may only want 50 good pros, but I can guarantee you that you ask any pros and they'll take the 100. That would mean more money and the expansion and growth of their class and 3D archery. Sorry DB but that statement kind of goes against growing the sport. The pros feel like everyone else the more the merrier equals bigger payouts and stability of the class.


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## darton3d (Oct 16, 2009)

Lots of good, valid opinions here. But I have a few questions/thoughts. First I am not against having known yardage classes, if ASA was in the northeast that may very well be what I shoot. I have been shooting 3D a long time, going back to before there were 3D targets and they were 2D. Remember the old Pottinger targets? The game has change a lot since then, it has become more of a finesse and strategy game. 
One of the arguments for known yardage is that many don't have the time to practice yardage, or just don't have the ability. So if having known yardage classes brings them in, great! But what if some can't afford targets or don't have the time to practice on them. Is the person who does at an unfair advantage? Reading the target is still an important part of the game, even with binoculars and known yardage. If enough people express concern about that, do we then change the game again and mark the scoring rings? 
Someone made the comment that 3D was started to practice for hunting and used that to justify the use of rangefinders now since most hunters use a rangefinder. That is true, but you don't see many hunters in treestands with 30" front stabilizers, 15" rear stabilizers, target sight with scopes and lenses. So do we change the game back to meet "hunting" equipment standards, including rangefinders? 
I think we can all agree that years ago there were more shooters at local events, which is where the national organizations are going to pull competitors from. Having more classes hasn't caused a great influx of shooters. In my opinion offering known yardage to these people will not bring the numbers back up. There are a few things that made them stop shooting 3D, in my opinion and from what I have heard them say. Cost of equipment is one, time is also a big one. But the thing I hear the most is that they stopped shooting because of the "target guys" with their long stabilizers, fancy sights, binoculars and chairs. They don't like what the game has become and it takes too long to shoot a course. It's not a hunting game anymore, not even in the "hunter" classes. Now this may be just an excuse for many, and in truth they just didn't like getting beat and being shown just how bad their shooting ability is. But it is an issue non the less.
So at what point do we say "this is how the game is played, conform or don't play"? Or do we just keep making changes trying to please everyone and not really succeeding at all. Look at all the current classes, and there is still arguing. 
Personally I think someone above had a great idea:
K40, K45, K50, KPro, U40, U45, U50, UPro. Have this for both adult men and women. But then you also have guys who like to shoot fixed pins, and seniors, and super seniors what do you do for them? Obviously there are no easy answers.


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

8 pages...... No money, K50 isn't going anywhere....

Question; Say a big outside sponsor joins ranks with the ASA... If the money was there, say across the board, how many more people would show at the National level? Maybe too many...Maybe days of the tournament would have to expand. Maybe you'd have to qualify to enter a National...Maybe entry fees would increase...Maybe some classes would be cut off at X number of entries...Maybe what else?

As it is, at any one national, if 100 or 200 more show up ASA would be hard pressed to handle such...Given some lead time I'm sure Mike and Crew would figure out something...


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## Kstigall (Feb 24, 2004)

DB, 
I've said it and others have said it many times. The majority of folks do NOT want K50 to simply be switched to a Pro class. I know a _few _in the _current _ K50 class would love to see the entry fee doubled immediately. I also mentioned this in previous posts. But that is not in the best interest of the ASA and the majority of those archers that may want to shoot Known distance 3D in the future. K50 needs to to remain as is. Maybe we'll see a known distance Pro class one day or maybe not. 

The ASA and K50 does not exist for a handful of archers. I understand a hand full of K50 guys don't or can't wait 5 or so years for a full blown Pro known class if it ever happens. I'm 51 so I really understand not wanting or even being able to _wait_ for the growth to support a class.......... ;-) like *Senior Pro Known*! The current top dogs in K50 may not be the top dogs when or if a Pro Known class happens. 

I'm fairly certain a majority of the folks with the best interest of 3D archery and the ASA in mind do not believe the ASA should simply flip K50 to "Pro". It would be a bad business decision.


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## LongTime (Feb 17, 2005)

I think they should have a kn50 pro class along with the other pro classes. They should drop the registration fees to $200 for all Pro classes and do awaway with the Pro certification fee then you will see increased attn.


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## rattlinman (Dec 30, 2004)

CMA121885 said:


> Im pretty sure i have it figured out. You want everyone to learn to judge. But most of us dont have the time to dedicate to that. Yiur signature says archery is a addiction to you....same goes for most of us. So for all the support we give ASA , *why cant the blue collar guys have the same opportunity? *
> 
> Most pro shooters, especially at the top, work in the archery industry. They have ALL the resources to be where they are. Did tou ever make it to pro? If not was it because you have a job outside archery and didnt have the time to dedicate to it? Eould you have liked to have a opportunity to shoot pro? I think so, if archery is in fact a addiction...
> 
> I work with scott bennett who is in fact trying to sponsor k50/ameture classes. THATS the heart beat of our sport is the ametures. *Say what you. If the ametures arent shooting for something worth shooting for most will quit.* Do you realize how many shooters would continue to shoot with a reason?


So you think guys like Justin Bethel, Kevin Koch, Danny Evans, and Ty Adkins are not "blue collar"? All 47 of the Pros that shot at Bama have silver spoons in their pockets?

You think amateurs won't show up if they don't have something worth shooting for? You might check attendance #'s, they have been showing up plenty, and for lots of reasons other than being able to call themselves a "Pro" or play for big money at the end. And of course there are many that want to get better and hope to move up to the Pro status, that's what they are shooting for.



Garceau said:


> What do the Pros in the class want? 50 good ones or a 100 average ones? Im betting the handful that are always near contention would rather 100 plus average or less than average


Of course they do, but it's not for the competition, it would be to get a fatter check.



SonnyThomas said:


> 8 pages...... No money, K50 isn't going anywhere....
> 
> Question; Say a big outside sponsor joins ranks with the ASA... *If the money was there, say across the board, how many more people would show at the National level?* Maybe too many...Maybe days of the tournament would have to expand. Maybe you'd have to qualify to enter a National...Maybe entry fees would increase...Maybe some classes would be cut off at X number of entries...Maybe what else?
> 
> As it is, at any one national, if 100 or 200 more show up ASA would be hard pressed to handle such...Given some lead time I'm sure Mike and Crew would figure out something...


I'm not sure just throwing money at it will help. Take Regions for example, he threw something like $2500 at an amateur bowhunter class at Stillwater. Guess how many guys shot in it? Only like 15 total.

Any "Pros" go looking for that prize money? Nope.

This argument continues to remind me why we are failing as a society. 

If the test is too hard, then instead of doing a better job educating we just make the test easier.

If the lower class can't live at the "rich" level, then let's take money from the rich and give it to them instead of making them work for it.

Make sure everyone gets a ribbon so we have no losers, instead of telling them to work harder and get better.

If the Known 50 can't hang with the "Pros" because they don't want to practice yardage judging, (which I know many Pros that practice judging more than shooting) then let's make their own "Pro Class".

Every Known 50 guy that thinks he deserves the same paycheck as a "Pro" just needs to man up, learn to judge, and pay the entry fee. IMO 

I wanted to play football for a living but was never fast enough or big enough. They should make a NFL for just average joes and pay us the same as the Pros!!! :wink:


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## STRICNINE (Oct 22, 2012)

rattlinman said:


> So you think guys like Justin Bethel, Kevin Koch, Danny Evans, and Ty Adkins are not "blue collar"? All 47 of the Pros that shot at Bama have silver spoons in their pockets?
> QUOTE]
> 
> All VERY talented archers but none of the guys you mentioned have won in Open Pro...unless you count SIMS. How long do you participate in that class and not win before you tap out? Travel expense, entry fees, etc.....
> ...


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## cenochs (May 2, 2007)

All VERY talented archers but none of the guys you mentioned have won in Open Pro...unless you count SIMS. How long do you participate in that class and not win before you tap out? Travel expense, entry fees, etc.....

I totally agree with this and will add something these archers have not won and has any of them won even their entry fee to break even for a year of shooting Pro ? I would say not ! Why do they do it is it just for the title ? 

Since I started the ASA the Pro Class shooters have puzzled me.. Less than 10 of the Shooters have a real chance of winning and the rest can't even break even on the expenses and they keep donating ? Name another sport that has a Pro Division where only 4 or 5 people reap all the winnings and everyone else goes home in the hole and the others keeps coming back ? 

I will say it again if you want a true Pro 3D Class that is legit and will attract outside sponsors you need for the class to have requirements for Archers to meet to join and stay Pro and stop the "let anyone shoot that wants to pay" Until then it will always be watered down version of what it could be.

This weekend I will watching every minute of the Masters my first love is golf. I have been to the Masters twice and what a experience. Just imagine if Golf's Pro Class was operated like the 3D Archery Pro Class every person with a Bag of clubs that could pay the entry fee would be invading golf tournaments to play with the Pros..... Not good !! 

Like Tony has pointed out it is dying slowly something needs to change for future growth.


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## STRICNINE (Oct 22, 2012)

cenochs said:


> All VERY talented archers but none of the guys you mentioned have won in Open Pro...unless you count SIMS. How long do you participate in that class and not win before you tap out? Travel expense, entry fees, etc.....
> 
> I totally agree with this and will add something these archers have not won and has any of them won even their entry fee to break even for a year of shooting Pro ? I would say not ! Why do they do it is it just for the title ?
> 
> ...


Let me guess, you route for lefty?  hahahahahahahaha


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## tmorelli (Jul 31, 2005)

Best "solution" I've seen. This is effectively a flighting system that crowns one true champion. 

Make it all known yardage. Look at the success of Redding and Vegas. Look at the draw Lancaster has for pros and Ams alike.... This takes the best of all those things and applies it to 3d.

Maybe this is what Regions should be doing.


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## Rolo (Dec 16, 2002)

tmorelli said:


> Where is the threshold for the manufacturers who make pro archery possible today?


I had a big ol' long philosophical reply to that statement, and then I realized it was a big ol' philosophical reply that wasn't on this point. :wink:

The short answer is IMO, that the threshold is pretty darn short in all venues at the present time for the pro class only. The philosophical discussion comes with how to make it larger, and who are the parties responsible for making it larger. 

IMO, the manufacturers have done about all they can, and maybe should at this point, without the other players, endemic and non-endemic joining in. I think that under the current scheme of things, the manufacturers get a better ROI hitching themselves to a limited few, and reducing the contingency payment possibilities (at least the big ones) to the many. I generally believe that the responsibility for growing the pro class lies with the people in it, and the organizations providing it, not necessarily the manufacturers, though they too have a role to play. 

Current trends suggest that the manufacturers would be better off, at least potentially, throwing their cash behind the known formats for a pro class though.


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## rattlinman (Dec 30, 2004)

STRICNINE said:


> rattlinman said:
> 
> 
> > So you think guys like Justin Bethel, Kevin Koch, Danny Evans, and Ty Adkins are not "blue collar"? All 47 of the Pros that shot at Bama have silver spoons in their pockets?
> ...


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## rattlinman (Dec 30, 2004)

cenochs said:


> All VERY talented archers but none of the guys you mentioned have won in Open Pro...unless you count SIMS. How long do you participate in that class and not win before you tap out? Travel expense, entry fees, etc.....
> 
> I totally agree with this and will add something these archers have not won and has any of them won even their entry fee to break even for a year of shooting Pro ? I would say not ! Why do they do it is it just for the title ?
> 
> ...


While I will agree with you that archery could use a "qualifying" process to be considered a Pro, if we are still talking about building on participation numbers....wouldn't this actually hurt the sport?


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## BowHuntnKY (Dec 10, 2008)

I say we just keep on, keep'n on


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## rattlinman (Dec 30, 2004)

tmorelli said:


> Best "solution" I've seen. This is effectively a flighting system that crowns one true champion.
> 
> Make it all known yardage. Look at the success of Redding and Vegas. Look at the draw Lancaster has for pros and Ams alike.... This takes the best of all those things and applies it to 3d.
> 
> Maybe this is what Regions should be doing.


Interesting idea and would love to see it done, but I don't see where Nathan mentioned it should be known yardage. My guess is he would want it to be unknown, which is what he's good at.


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## tmorelli (Jul 31, 2005)

rattlinman said:


> Interesting idea and would love to see it done, but I don't see where Nathan mentioned it should be known yardage. My guess is he would want it to be unknown, which is what he's good at.


His next post on same topic said "make it known yardage ". It wouldn't fit in my screen cap...


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## rattlinman (Dec 30, 2004)

tmorelli said:


> His next post on same topic said "make it known yardage ". It wouldn't fit in my screen cap...


Then I stand corrected.......


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## tmorelli (Jul 31, 2005)

rattlinman said:


> Then I stand corrected.......


Nah, I'm taking some liberty but I don't think its that he "wants" known yardage....but that he believes known yardage would help grow the game.


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## 573mms (Jan 23, 2014)

I bet when you known guys play golf you just drive straight to the green and throw your ball in the hole!!! Hec, then you could consider your selves pro golfers too!!!


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## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

cenochs said:


> All VERY talented archers but none of the guys you mentioned have won in Open Pro...unless you count SIMS. How long do you participate in that class and not win before you tap out? Travel expense, entry fees, etc.....
> 
> I totally agree with this and will add something these archers have not won and has any of them won even their entry fee to break even for a year of shooting Pro ? I would say not ! Why do they do it is it just for the title ?
> 
> ...


It pretty obvious they do it for the title of being the best in a sport. One thing for sure these guys aren't sitting back on there butt one day saying I wonder if i could have won in pro archery. I have yet to talk to anyone who shot the pro class's that has regretted it. It something one should be very proud he was able to reach such a level. I think back about Jamie Jamison walking away for archery to keep his family together which he was at his peak at the time only to come back years later and win the Classic on the very last shot. That will be something no one ever takes away from him. There those who do and there those who sit back and never try. Others words there doers and talkers.
DB


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## panther08 (Jan 7, 2008)

I feel like a lot of you anti known guys are blind to the fact that there's more then enough room for both classes. If you want the archery world to grow we need to get the field and fita guys to come play. And the only way to get them out here is to have a pay that's worth a darn. Even if its not a pro class k50 we have to try and get the guys from the paper world to join us, then sit back and watch are sport grow. I will most likely never win but I would feel like we all won if are sport keeps growing


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## 573mms (Jan 23, 2014)

I don't think I'm blind I just dont think changing a sport that has been around for years to make it easier for you makes you anywhere close to being as good as the open pro's. I guess if you only play half the game maybe it makes you half as good! If the paper guys want to shoot known yardage and grow the sport I'm all for it. Just don't have the delutions it makes you as good or better than a real 3d man on a 3d course.


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## panther08 (Jan 7, 2008)

I've shoot unknown since I started and have won lots of local stuff here in KY and in PA. So I understand what it takes to be an unknown open pro. This is not about them or making 3-d easier it about growth and the only way to keep growing is to get some more money in the classes that are pulling the most people and have the potential to bring in more shooters. This isn't about me or you it's about gettin more shooters to the stake. I mean you give a man a fish he eats for a day you teach him how to fish he eats for life. If we stay where we are we eat if we learn and grow we eat for life if that makes any scenes


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## Garceau (Sep 3, 2010)

573mms said:


> I don't think I'm blind I just dont think changing a sport that has been around for years to make it easier for you makes you anywhere close to being as good as the open pro's. I guess if you only play half the game maybe it makes you half as good! If the paper guys want to shoot known yardage and grow the sport I'm all for it. Just don't have the delutions it makes you as good or better than a real 3d man on a 3d course.


Has the sport ever evolved before?


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## cenochs (May 2, 2007)

Daniel Boone said:


> It pretty obvious they do it for the title of being the best in a sport. One thing for sure these guys aren't sitting back on there butt one day saying I wonder if i could have won in pro archery. I have yet to talk to anyone who shot the pro class's that has regretted it. It something one should be very proud he was able to reach such a level. I think back about Jamie Jamison walking away for archery to keep his family together which he was at his peak at the time only to come back years later and win the Classic on the very last shot. That will be something no one ever takes away from him. There those who do and there those who sit back and never try. Others words there doers and talkers.
> DB


DB it has nothing to do with the Pros it has to do with the Class and how poorly they as a whole are compensated for their talent. We all know you will defend the Pros to the bitter end so please comprehend more into each post than negatives about Pro Archers. It has nothing to do with any individual Pro but the Class.

They are great archers and deserve respect for their talents but how long do you perform not seeing a return for your ability? It is OK to finish in the Top 10 or 20 in the Class but with no financial return it is pointless financially.

How long do you work trying to win before you can not financially do it anymore before you reach your potential. 

Many good archers have never met there true potential because of the money it takes to travel and compete but if the Pro Class was more structured and financially promising we might see a different class all together. 

I respect and admire the Pros ability I just would like all of them current and future treated like Pros in Sports should be and it is possible.


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## okarcher (Jul 21, 2002)

573mms said:


> I bet when you known guys play golf you just drive straight to the green and throw your ball in the hole!!! Hec, then you could consider your selves pro golfers too!!!


And I bet when you go play golf you just talk about it instead. Then tell everybody how to play it on your computer keyboard. LOL
Please your killing me with your humor!


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## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

cenochs said:


> DB it has nothing to do with the Pros it has to do with the Class and how poorly they as a whole are compensated for their talent. We all know you will defend the Pros to the bitter end so please comprehend more into each post than negatives about Pro Archers. It has nothing to do with any individual Pro but the Class.
> 
> They are great archers and deserve respect for their talents but how long do you perform not seeing a return for your ability? It is OK to finish in the Top 10 or 20 in the Class but with no financial return it is pointless financially.
> 
> ...


Thats not what you said. Pros today all know the road to pro archery not full of big money. It not always about the big money but it certainly helps them in there travels. How many archers today would be shooting and traveling shooting if it was about the money? Who cares if I like the guys in the pro class, I discuss all archery. 
DB


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## Rolo (Dec 16, 2002)

cenochs said:


> I respect and admire the Pros ability I just would like all of them current and future treated like Pros in Sports should be and it is possible.


It is possible, but IMO it is going to require substantial change in attitude within and outside the pro division. At the very least, the pros need to attempt to get on the same basic page. The way it currently works, there really isn't much incentive for the actual pros (those that are employed to shoot bows) to work for the benefit of the other folks in the class. Heck, the major contingency checks (those from the main sponsors) for a number of the actual pros never get cashed and are merely a prop. Those folks could care less what the manufacturers (again major ones) do with their contingency pay-outs because they have already been paid.


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## Scott Bennett (Aug 12, 2012)

Daniel Boone said:


> It pretty obvious they do it for the title of being the best in a sport. One thing for sure these guys aren't sitting back on there butt one day saying I wonder if i could have won in pro archery. I have yet to talk to anyone who shot the pro class's that has regretted it. It something one should be very proud he was able to reach such a level. I think back about Jamie Jamison walking away for archery to keep his family together which he was at his peak at the time only to come back years later and win the Classic on the very last shot. That will be something no one ever takes away from him. There those who do and there those who sit back and never try. Others words there doers and talkers.
> DB


and then there are those who shoot the "Pro" class who are NOT pro's.....never have been and never will.....just because you pay the money to shoot with the best don't mean you are the best......


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## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

Scott Bennett said:


> and then there are those who shoot the "Pro" class who are NOT pro's.....never have been and never will.....just because you pay the money to shoot with the best don't mean you are the best......


That's your opinion. They paid there entry fee (certification fee) into the class and under today's current rules there classified as a pro. I shot pro (Senior Pro) for two years was I not consider a pro?
So if Scott Bennett starts to shoot well enough and wants to shoot pro he not entitled to shoot the pro class? Tony Morrelli or Chad Hilburn decide next year to turn pro there not going to be consider a pro? Explain this pro thing and how you read the rules of ASA archery or NFAA archery and tell me what qualify someone to be a pro?

DB


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## Scott Bennett (Aug 12, 2012)

Daniel Boone said:


> That's your opinion. They paid there entry fee (certification fee) into the class and under today's current rules there classified as a pro. I shot pro (Senior Pro) for two years was I not consider a pro?
> So if Scott Bennett starts to shoot well enough and wants to shoot pro he not entitled to shoot the pro class? Tony Morrelli or Chad Hilburn decide next year to turn pro there not going to be consider a pro? Explain this pro thing and how you read the rules of ASA archery or NFAA archery and tell me what qualify someone to be a pro?
> 
> DB


Decipher or interpret the rules anyway you like. But the fact of the matter is just because you pay your dues, you are not a "pro"! As one member on here has already stated, there is an overwhelming majority of archers who shoot in the "open pro" class that never have won anything. Just because you are in the "pro" class don't mean your ability as an archer qualifies you to be a professional archer. There is a huge difference in being "certified" and being "qualified"!! 

Another Example: Just because I can run a crane don't mean I am a crane operator....just because I can shoot a bow don't mean I am a professional archer just because I paid my dues......


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## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

Scott Bennett said:


> Decipher or interpret the rules anyway you like. But the fact of the matter is just because you pay your dues, you are not a "pro"! As one member on here has already stated, there is an overwhelming majority of archers who shoot in the "open pro" class that never have won anything. Just because you are in the "pro" class don't mean your ability as an archer qualifies you to be a professional archer. There is a huge difference in being "certified" and being "qualified"!!
> 
> Another Example: Just because I can run a crane don't mean I am a crane operator....just because I can shoot a bow don't mean I am a professional archer just because I paid my dues......


So our saying the score is what makes the pro? Is this correct? So the fact I worked hard for several years in planning to go pro and I was just kidding myself that I was a pro correct? My first event I was leading on day one! I often finished in top 15 of the class. I felt pretty excited about that and pretty proud of my accomplishment. How do you read the rules? You didnt answer my question if Scott Bennett works hard to get his scores to a point where he feels he can compete in the pro class and enter an event he is not a pro correct?

I will say this ever pro archer I ever shot with treated me just like any other pro in the class. Thats exactly how it should be! Under the current rules if you enter a pro class your consider a pro for that event. There was never a time anyone of the guys in that class made me feel any less of a pro. 
DB


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## Scott Bennett (Aug 12, 2012)

Daniel Boone said:


> So our saying the score is what makes the pro? Is this correct? So the fact I worked hard for several years in planning to go pro and I was just kidding myself that I was a pro correct? My first event I was leading on day one! I often finished in top 15 of the class. I felt pretty excited about that and pretty proud of my accomplishment. How do you read the rules? You didnt answer my question if Scott Bennett works hard to get his scores to a point where he feels he can compete in the pro class and enter an event he is not a pro correct?
> 
> I will say this ever pro archer I ever shot with treated me just like any other pro in the class. Thats exactly how it should be! Under the current rules if you enter a pro class your consider a pro for that event. There was never a time anyone of the guys in that class made me feel any less of a pro.
> DB


Just because you "feel" your scores are high enough to compete with the guys in open pro, don't mean you are able to.....there are several guys who shoot open pro and never make it to the top 20 much less the top 10....but when they shoot the local tournaments the usually post decent scores, but nothing to write home about.

I know some guys who post some ridiculous scores at the local level, but are typical 15-20 down shooters at ASA events....hmmm, why is that?

What I am saying is just because you pay the money to enter the pro class does not qualify you as a pro. Simple as that.


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## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

Scott Bennett said:


> Just because you "feel" your scores are high enough to compete with the guys in open pro, don't mean you are able to.....there are several guys who shoot open pro and never make it to the top 20 much less the top 10....but when they shoot the local tournaments the usually post decent scores, but nothing to write home about.
> 
> I know some guys who post some ridiculous scores at the local level, but are typical 15-20 down shooters at ASA events....hmmm, why is that?
> 
> What I am saying is just because you pay the money to enter the pro class does not qualify you as a pro. Simple as that.


Scott I dont consider myself a pro by any means. But I never tell anyone not to try and reach that goal. Someone may shoot the pro class his entire time and not win and it doesnt make them less of a pro. They gave it there best shot. I would suggest to you not be so judgmental to those who are trying to shoot against the best archers. It not easy and it not cheap. But give someone credit for trying to reach a goal in life. I admire someone for not sandbagging and actually shooting against the best. There something to be said for that!
DB


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## Scott Bennett (Aug 12, 2012)

Daniel Boone said:


> Scott I dont consider myself a pro by any means. But I never tell anyone not to try and reach that goal. Someone may shoot the pro class his entire time and not win and it doesnt make them less of a pro. They gave it there best shot. I would suggest to you not be so judgmental to those who are trying to shoot against the best archers. It not easy and it not cheap. But give someone credit for trying to reach a goal in life. I admire someone for not sandbagging and actually shooting against the best. There something to be said for that!
> DB


No question! I admire their aspirations! 

But this thread has taken on many difference fronts since its inception....

Maybe those archers in open pro who are not able to compete with the top 10 or 20 of that class would like the K50 class to turn into much more than just a "blue collar" pro class to entice them into a class that might be more suitable for them. 

Perhaps.....


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## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

Scott Bennett said:


> No question! I admire their aspirations!
> 
> But this thread has taken on many difference fronts since its inception....
> 
> ...


This thread I thought was about making the K50 a Pro class. Some have said it not about that at all. ASA will make the K50 a pro class if they see a need in the future.
IMO most pro archers are diffidently working class guys. I know allot of top pros. Blue collar is exactly what I would call most pros today. 

Whether it known or unknown its all archery. You cant blame those who have shot archery unknown for many years for wanting to keep it that way. 

There no easy class's at a ASA Pro am. K50 the top class in Known right now and who knows what will happen in the future. My hopes is judging yardage will always be part of of 3d but thats just One opionion like others here. 
DB


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## Scott Bennett (Aug 12, 2012)

Daniel Boone said:


> This thread I thought was about making the K50 a Pro class. Some have said it not about that at all. ASA will make the K50 a pro class if they see a need in the future.
> IMO most pro archers are diffidently working class guys. I know allot of top pros. Blue collar is exactly what I would call most pros today.
> 
> Whether it known or unknown its all archery. You cant blame those who have shot archery unknown for many years for wanting to keep it that way.
> ...


I too hope when the dust settles that there are still classes that require the archer to judge yardage. 

But I also hope that the "Known Distance" shooters can be just as embraced from the local scene to the national scene as the "Unknown Distance" shooters...because as mentioned many times during the course of this thread, there are a number of "known distance" archers out there who can stand toe to toe with the best archers in the world when it comes to shear ability of shooting a bow. But I don't feel they get a fair shake just because they either:

1) Don't have the talent to judge yardage just as good as the unknown guys.
2) Have other priorities in their life that prevent them from fully developing those yardage judging talents.

I have said it once and I will say it again, I am all for the amateurs because after all, this is exactly where all archers began.....


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## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

Scott Bennett said:


> I too hope when the dust settles that there are still classes that require the archer to judge yardage.
> 
> But I also hope that the "Known Distance" shooters can be just as embraced from the local scene to the national scene as the "Unknown Distance" shooters...because as mentioned many times during the course of this thread, there are a number of "known distance" archers out there who can stand toe to toe with the best archers in the world when it comes to shear ability of shooting a bow. But I don't feel they get a fair shake just because they either:
> 
> ...


Well said. Were all wanting whats best for archery and those who shoot it including amatuers and pros. ASA will get it figured out whats best for them.
DB


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## RCR_III (Mar 19, 2011)

Here's another take on the known/unknown yardage that I heard from the John Dudley/Jeff Hopkins podcast, John Dudley stated he stopped shooting 3D and moved to target archery because he felt like he could make a good shot and not be rewarded for it because of the misjudgement of yardage. 

I think this can be seen with many shooters, and another reason to try and grow the K50 class or make a venue for Known Pro. Giving options and not taking away one pro class for another is what I see as the correct way to direct things at this point. Then from here just letting attendance, popularity, contengencies, ect guide the paths.


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## ccwilder3 (Sep 13, 2003)

RCR_III said:


> Here's another take on the known/unknown yardage that I heard from the John Dudley/Jeff Hopkins podcast, John Dudley stated he stopped shooting 3D and moved to target archery because he felt like he could make a good shot and not be rewarded for it because of the misjudgement of yardage.
> 
> I think this can be seen with many shooters, and another reason to try and grow the K50 class or *make a venue for Known Pro*. Giving options and not taking away one pro class for another is what I see as the correct way to direct things at this point. Then from here just letting attendance, popularity, contengencies, ect guide the paths.


This^^^.

Leave k50 as it is now alone and create a new pro k50 class.


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

ccwilder3 said:


> This^^^.
> 
> Leave k50 as it is now alone and create a new pro k50 class.


Read; Open Pro, X amount of contingency money for 1st, 2nd, and 3rd. Pros are going to do what?


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## bhtr3d (Feb 13, 2004)

RCR_III said:


> Here's another take on the known/unknown yardage that I heard from the John Dudley/Jeff Hopkins podcast, John Dudley stated he stopped shooting 3D and moved to target archery because he felt like he could make a good shot and not be rewarded imagineecause of the misjudgement of yardage.
> 
> I think this can be seen with many shooters, and another reason to try and grow the K50 class or make a venue for Known Pro. Giving options and not taking away one pro class for another is what I see as the correct way to direct things at this point. Then from here just letting attendance, popularity, contengencies, ect guide the paths.



Well id have to disagree with a few things......because I feel that part of shoot I g the sport is the execution of visually see the distance.........i personally do not see how this is a problem ....your mind is able to do sight calulations far better than you could imagine. ..... i just do t see how ""spot"" shooter are all in about to show the better Chef.....they do shoot unknown in fit a field.......but hey.....shoot what you want.....have fun ....its why asa is the shooters choice


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## JimmyP (Feb 11, 2006)

A lot of the shooters in k 50 have won out of A and semi k50 and open pro is all that's left


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

John Dudley.... Europe, coaching clinics, seminars, Nock On TV, Sponsors.... I imagine he has all the "stress" he can take


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## Kstigall (Feb 24, 2004)

573mms said:


> I don't think I'm blind I just dont think changing a sport that has been around for years to make it easier for you makes you anywhere close to being as good as the open pro's. I guess if you only play half the game maybe it makes you half as good! If the paper guys want to shoot known yardage and grow the sport I'm all for it. Just don't have the delutions it makes you as good or better than a real 3d man on a 3d course.


A lot of your posts in this thread are really short sighted and full of misunderstanding if not basic juvenile reasoning. It is obvious that you very much resent the popularity of known distance 3D. I am beginning to wonder if you may be an old school "3D Pro".

The only one that may be "delusional" is you. By the way, a persons man status is not defined by whether or not he shoots known 3D or unknown 3D. 

Your comments remind me a lot of the NFAA leaders (?) that have driven the NFAA into irrelevance. But they are happy because they are in charge....

It has been said time and again. No one is suggesting that unknown distance 3D should be replaced by Known distance 3D. At the same time the growth and popularity of known distance 3D should not be artificially choked off just so it won't draw attention away from current unknown distance 3D archers.


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## tmorelli (Jul 31, 2005)

Kstigall said:


> I am beginning to wonder if you may be an old school "3D Pro".


Nah, I'm guessing middle aged shop shooter who has probably never left his local ranges.


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## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

I am lucky enough in open a to shoot the pro course on occasion and they move a few of the long targets within my 45 yard max and this allows me to compare my score to the pro scores a little and holy crap when I struggle to shoot even or slightly above even and levi and hopkins and gillingham shoot right at 40 up for the weekend it reminds me that I am right where I should be. 

I will remind you that many of the semi pro guys that win shooter of the year or many semi pro events with super high scores dont go to the open pro class and do the same scoring because the minute you are in the actual class shooting against the best in the world things change and it is harder to produce the same high scores.

The other thing I don't think we give enough credit to the known 50 guys is the game that they play, each discipline forces you to play the game a certain way. For example I have found that sighting my bow in perfectly causes me problems and so I don't do that anymore. My bow is sighted in to my yardage guess so if I guess a target for 42 yards my bow will either hit slightly high safely in the 10 ring or dead on, I do not want to hit low so my brain is trained to guess yardages that allow me to aim at the 12 ring and either hit slightly high or dead on without me adding yardage to my guess. A known 50 shooter is going to play his game differently because he knows the exact yardage that his range finder tells him so he can choose to aim dead on or add a yard or aim at the connector etc.

This is why I think that Sam really may be hard for even levi and hopkins to beat because the second you put a range finder in levis hands he is going to have to play the game slightly different than he is used to and it could cause him trouble. Sam shoots known at all the local shoots and doesn't even turn in a score card many times because they may not have a known class so all he does is known and to me that makes him really good at playing that game.


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## Scott Bennett (Aug 12, 2012)

Padgett said:


> I am lucky enough in open a to shoot the pro course on occasion and they move a few of the long targets within my 45 yard max and this allows me to compare my score to the pro scores a little and holy crap when I struggle to shoot even or slightly above even and levi and hopkins and gillingham shoot right at 40 up for the weekend it reminds me that I am right where I should be.
> 
> I will remind you that many of the semi pro guys that win shooter of the year or many semi pro events with super high scores dont go to the open pro class and do the same scoring because the minute you are in the actual class shooting against the best in the world things change and it is harder to produce the same high scores.
> 
> ...


Padgett, that was a great analogy for sure! I too agree that if an "Unknown" 3D archer steps into the "Known" class that he will NOT clean everybody's clock! Visa-versa....as you said, the game is played totally different in each arena. 

However, this horse has been beat to death....but I will say it again...I am all for the "Known" class guys being just as recognized for their professional shooting ability...such as Sam and the other top guys.....


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

Sam who ?


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