# NFAA Field Nationals 2018 - Mechanicsburg



## sprinke (Jul 9, 2015)

Hello! I'll be coming out to Mechanicsburg to shoot the NFAA field nationals in a couple weeks. Got family in the area.

Can anyone tell me what the course is like? Terrain? 

Will there be vendors there?

Thanks.


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## Demmer3 (Apr 23, 2017)

sprinke said:


> Hello! I'll be coming out to Mechanicsburg to shoot the NFAA field nationals in a couple weeks. Got family in the area.
> 
> Can anyone tell me what the course is like? Terrain?
> 
> ...


A few venders and fairly flat. 

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## Brown Hornet (Aug 8, 2002)

A few vendors and manufacturers, Lancaster will have their truck there of course. 

The course is pretty flat. A few targets with up and down slope but nothing major. No cuts more then a 1/2 yard if memory serves me correctly. 

If you go back and search threads started by me in 2009 you'll find pics from Nationals that summer. 


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## Brown Hornet (Aug 8, 2002)

Hornet's 09 Nationals Run Down

https://r.tapatalk.com/shareLink?sh...k.com/vb/showthread.php?t=974311&share_type=t


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## sprinke (Jul 9, 2015)

Brown Hornet, thanks for that monster of a post about 2009! And aside from any amusement value, it was highly informative. 

So the targets look like they are stacked foam?

My son will be shooting Cub and he's also looking forward to meeting some of the pros. Is it common to run into them on the course or in the vendor areas?

Is it easy to get food during the day at the club? Or should we pack our own lunches?


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## redman (Feb 22, 2003)

What are the targets made out of . Good to see you back Hornet


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## Brown Hornet (Aug 8, 2002)

sprinke said:


> Brown Hornet, thanks for that monster of a post about 2009! And aside from any amusement value, it was highly informative.
> 
> So the targets look like they are stacked foam?
> 
> ...


No problem. I figured it would be much faster for me to find the post. Glad you enjoyed it. 

The targets then were Blocks. Not sure about now. 

You'll see Pros on the practice range and walking around. But you won't run into them shooting. The Pros and Male FS generally are one the course by themselves. 

You'll have to pack lunch. Not all ranges run past the club house. But there is no break and no time given to stop for lunch. 


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## Brown Hornet (Aug 8, 2002)

redman said:


> What are the targets made out of . Good to see you back Hornet


Thanks buddy. Range Blocks back then. Could be different now though. 


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## sprinke (Jul 9, 2015)

Are there multiple start times each day? Meaning, you get a target assignment and a start time? Or does everybody start at the same time?

What happens if you don't want to shoot all five days?


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## Davik (Apr 16, 2003)

You can shoot 3 days, any combo of field,hunter, animal you like ...schedule is field, hunter, animal, field, hunter.


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## Brown Hornet (Aug 8, 2002)

You can shoot 3 days. I'm only shooting 3 this year. 

Be there Thursday at some point. 


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## Brown Hornet (Aug 8, 2002)

sprinke said:


> Are there multiple start times each day? Meaning, you get a target assignment and a start time? Or does everybody start at the same time?
> 
> What happens if you don't want to shoot all five days?


Everyone starts at the same time. Shotgun start. 


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## huteson2us2 (Jun 22, 2005)

There are some advantages to the 3-5 day venue even if I don't care for two days Mulligans at a National tournament. A couple of years ago after shooting a 543 on Coyote (1st hunter round), in Darrington, I slid down a hill coming off the course. I had severe back pain and could not get out of bed on the day of the 2nd Field round. If not for this Mulligan round, I would have been eliminated. I shot the last two days with severe pain, It turned out to be a 1.5 cm stone lodged in my ureter that had moved when I slid down the hill. After spending a couple of thousand dollars and driving a 4,000 mile round trip But if you want my advice, I would much rather have a 3 day (Friday, Saturday, Sunday) tournament like Vegas or Redding. No Mulligan days and only one day off for the working. At Darrington, the retired seniors out numbered all the other archers, because they could.

If you decide to shoot only 3 days, be sure and shoot the last 3 days and not the first 3 days because for some reason, the animal round is shot on the 5th day and not on the 3rd day unless they changed.


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## huteson2us2 (Jun 22, 2005)

I forgot to mention that the field Nationals is not like a 3D round. The rules are required to be followed. No pencil wripping allowed and friends and family do not shoot together and one cannot see the high score for the day and then go out to beat it. You are put into a group of archers shooting the same score as you do. There will be two score keepers and one person will be picked to call the scores. Both score cards are used and the scores must come out the same. There is a shotgun start and all archers must be on their target when it starts. 

If someone can cheat, my hat off to them. I always carry a set of rues in my quiver because it is amazing how many people can shoot a National tournament without knowing the rules. The shot arrow rule is the most abused. At a NFAA Indoors, an arrow that lands less than 10 feet from the archer can be shot again but at the outdoor Nationals, any arrow propelled by the string is a shot arrow. I heard of one guy that believed that if he could lay down on the ground with one toe touching the stake and by reaching out as far as he could with his bow and can touch the arrow with the end of his stabilizer, he can shoot the arrow again.He won his division and is a National Champion.


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## Brown Hornet (Aug 8, 2002)

The animal round is on Friday.... 

And friends can shoot together....not by choice. But I know a lot of folks. Just about every round I've shot i shot with a friend on every round. But I know a lot of people  heck one year I shot 2 rounds with my roommate. 


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## JF from VA (Dec 5, 2002)

The last time I was at Mechanicsburg in 2015, the targets were a combination of stacked foam and celotex. Some targets had the celotex middle replaced with foam sheets, while others were all celotex. I would recommend taking plenty of arrow lube and something to scrape the celotex residue from your arrows, like a pot scratcher pad. They may have made changes since 2015.



sprinke said:


> So the targets look like they are stacked foam?


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## Brown Hornet (Aug 8, 2002)

As someone that does a lot of arrow pulling from celotex and all materials really. When I shoot field I ALWAYS am the one pulling arrows and calling. EVERY TIME. 

Lube makes pulling and build up worse. Trust me. You think it helps. It doesn't. You get more stuff caked on. And it makes your arrows harder to pull. 


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## Brown Hornet (Aug 8, 2002)

Arrow lube is for foam...as in 3D. 

For field you need a puller and a scraper. That's it. 


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## sprinke (Jul 9, 2015)

thanks for all the great tips, everyone.



Brown Hornet said:


> Be there Thursday at some point.


Curious why?


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## Brown Hornet (Aug 8, 2002)

Why? Because I'm shooting the 3 day format not 5 day... Friday, Saturday and Sunday. 


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## sprinke (Jul 9, 2015)

Oh! You meant, "I'll be there Thursday at some point" ... I thought you meant "You should go to the course sometime on Thursday." Misunderstanding!


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## Davik (Apr 16, 2003)

You CAN go shoot Thurs...any combination of three events...animal is on Friday for that very reason...you can shoot Thurs/ Fri/Saturday or any three days as long as you complete the series...
.


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## Bebite (Jul 11, 2011)

I hope you don't mind but I've never shot the Nationals and have some questions:

1. Do you have to be an NFAA member to shoot? If yes, can you pay on site?
2. Do you have to pre-register or again, can you just show up and pay the entry fee?
3. Is the animal round marked distance or un-marked?


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## Brown Hornet (Aug 8, 2002)

Bebite said:


> I hope you don't mind but I've never shot the Nationals and have some questions:
> 
> 1. Do you have to be an NFAA member to shoot? If yes, can you pay on site?
> 2. Do you have to pre-register or again, can you just show up and pay the entry fee?
> 3. Is the animal round marked distance or un-marked?


You can sign up on site. But it's gonna cost you a lot more money. 

You really don't want to show up unregistered. 

All field/animal rounds are marked. 


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## CHPro (May 21, 2002)

And yes, you do have to be an NFAA member (or USAA, I believe there is still a reciprocity clause in the NFAA rules) to compete. You can probably join the NFAA on-site (?) but very easy to go to the NFAA website and join on-line.

>>------->


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## spotshot (Jan 18, 2005)

the shooting lanes are mostly grass and wide they actually want you to shoot 4 wide,there is snacks an drinks available on the courses and as hornet said mostly flat.


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## IGluIt4U (Sep 22, 2004)

From the NFAA today.... 


2018 NFAA Outdoor National Field Championships


Join us at the 73rd annual NFAA Outdoor National Field Championships in Mechanicsburg, PA July 25-29, 2018. This 3/5–day tournament features 2 field, 2 hunter, and 1 animal round. Participants are required to shoot at least one of each round, only the top score from each round will count towards your final score. Register prior to July 17, 2018 to avoid a $50 late fee.

Click here to view target size and shooting distance for all age divisions. Please see pages 27-28 of the NFAA Constitution and By-Laws for full field round rules.

View Mechanicsburg Sportsmen’s Protective Association’s Event Page for more information and details on the tournament.


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## Bill 2311 (Jun 24, 2005)

You can probably reach someone at Mechanicsburg Sportsman's Association. They have a phone there and answering machine as guys use it to reserve spots for the league shoots.


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## sprinke (Jul 9, 2015)

Weather forecast looks like showers and thunderstorms. What do you do in a tournament when you're out on the course and lightning starts? I'm from a place where it doesn't rain that often and thunderstorms are a rare event!


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## nestly (Apr 19, 2015)

sprinke said:


> Weather forecast looks like showers and thunderstorms. What do you do in a tournament when you're out on the course and lightning starts? I'm from a place where it doesn't rain that often and thunderstorms are a rare event!


I shot the PSAA State Field Championship this weekend at Mechanicsburg. We had ~4" of rain this weekend in South Central PA, but fortunately relatively little of it came while we were on the course(s) from 8am to 1pm Saturday and Sunday. The courses I shot were in very good shape considering the amount of rain. As for lightning, if the tournament officials feel it's unsafe, they will blow an air horn that means to clear the courses... other than that, be prepared to shoot though whatever mother nature throws at you. (If NFAA rules pertaining to inclement weather and/or lightning are different, someone can correct me)


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## wa-prez (Sep 9, 2006)

sprinke said:


> Weather forecast looks like showers and thunderstorms. What do you do in a tournament when you're out on the course and lightning starts? I'm from a place where it doesn't rain that often and thunderstorms are a rare event!


In case of lightning near by, they will sound a signal (usually the same as the signal to start the day) and everyone will be required to come off the course.

In case of just rain … the show will go on. Anyone leaving the course just because they are miserable can later rejoin their group but can't make up the targets their group shot in their absence.

A few years ago at Mechanicsburg there was a weather delay in getting started (the second or third day I think it was). Since you only have to shoot ONE field and ONE hunter, I took the option of just going back to the hotel.


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## Bebite (Jul 11, 2011)

Anybody know where they will be next year?


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## nestly (Apr 19, 2015)

It seemed like pretty high attendance for a soggy Wednesday. 
There was only some intermittent light rain during the round until one random thunder clap sent the air horns off and the ranges were cleared. A lot of people had just finished so it worked out well for them...a few of us had to head back out to shoot the last few....which didnt work out that great for me.









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## wa-prez (Sep 9, 2006)

Bebite said:


> Anybody know where they will be next year?


2019 should be west coast turn in the rotation.

Darrington Archers (Darrington WA) said they have submitted a bid for the tournament, but haven't heard if it is approved or if it has been awarded to someone else. I am not aware of any other bids.


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## wa-prez (Sep 9, 2006)

I have now seen a copy of Darrington WA bid for the 2019 NFAA Outdoor National.

They put in for a straight 3-day event, 26-28 July 2019 (Friday - Saturday - Sunday).

I have HEARD that it was approved. Those present at Mechanicsburg will probably hear an announcement.


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## sprinke (Jul 9, 2015)

I'm having a very nice time in Mechanicsburg. First day of shooting today; animal round. Very glad that the forecast was updated to not include RAIN these three days!!


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## Lazarus (Sep 19, 2005)

It was a great week of shooting despite the mud and a not so friendly forecast. The Mechanicsburg crew is to be commended for a job well done under way less than ideal conditions!

Met and shot with even more top notch folks! Was really good to meet AT member "nestly" who no doubt can hang!


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## TNMAN (Oct 6, 2009)

Just saw on Bowjunky that Page Gore shot 558 with 85X's on the hunter round.


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## IGluIt4U (Sep 22, 2004)

Some good shooting this year at Nats... Joe Macgrogan shot a new record for senior field with a 557 and Chris Perkins shot a 559/105x round.. that is pretty damned impressive! :cheers:


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## nestly (Apr 19, 2015)

Lazarus said:


> It was a great week of shooting despite the mud and a not so friendly forecast. The Mechanicsburg crew is to be commended for a job well done under way less than ideal conditions!
> 
> Met and shot with even more top notch folks! Was really good to meet AT member "nestly" who no doubt can hang!


Agree... conditions and personnel was remarkably pleasant considering the amount of rain that M-burg received before and during the tournament. Thanks for looking me up, it was a pleasure meeting you. (my "tournament" is isn't quite over... I still have to fight with NFAA to get my score corrected because they used my lower Hunter round in my final total, so I'm shown in 8th with a 1657, when I should be tied at 2nd place with 1670.



IGluIt4U said:


> Some good shooting this year at Nats... Joe Macgrogan shot a new record for senior field with a 557 and Chris Perkins shot a 559/105x round.. that is pretty damned impressive! :cheers:


I shot with Joe on Friday (animal) and Saturday (Field #2). I was in awe of how easy he made that 557 look. Super nice guy and well deserving of the record and the SMFS win.


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## EPLC (May 21, 2002)

How about that 559 105x Hunter round by Chris Perkins... WOW!


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## Unclegus (May 27, 2003)

EPLC said:


> How about that 559 105x Hunter round by Chris Perkins... WOW!


 that's stout for sure. I just wonder how Shane Wills feels shooting only the second 560 field round ever shot in a nationals, a 559 on the Hunter round and 23 spots on the animals and finishing 12th????? That truly sucks....


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## nestly (Apr 19, 2015)

They probably should have frozen the Field and Hunter records when they switched Pros from 5-4-3 scoring to 6-5-4-3 scoring. There's really no sense recording the 560 scores when it has no impact on the final results. NFAA outdoor should be synced with NFAA indoor (or vice versa) If they're going to count X's count them all the time, if not don't. For example 2018 Vegas Champ only shot 65/90X's... that would have had him lower than 30th place using current "Field scoring" where X's have value, but he kept all 90 arrows in the 10-ring so he made the shootoff. By contrast, Broadwater and Schlosser absolutely crushed him on X's (85/90X's) which was just as impressive as Perkin's X count in the Hunter round, but in Vegas, all those X's count for nothing.


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## EPLC (May 21, 2002)

Here’s the problem. If you don’t record the 560 scores the pros loose all connection to the average Joe field shooter. Loose that and the pros have no relevance.


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## nestly (Apr 19, 2015)

EPLC said:


> Here’s the problem. If you don’t record the 560 scores the pros loose all connection to the average Joe field shooter. Loose that and the pros have no relevance.


That's a self-imposed "problem" by not using the same scoring system for everyone. Either count the X's as a bonus point, or don't, and then do the same for indoor and outdoor.

Currently, the Pro winner is the guy that shoots the most X's, Currently the amateur winner is the guy that shoots the most spots.


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## shawn_in_MA (Dec 11, 2002)

nestly said:


> That's a self-imposed "problem" by not using the same scoring system for everyone. Either count the X's as a bonus point, or don't, and then do the same for indoor and outdoor.
> 
> Currently, the Pro winner is the guy that shoots the most X's, Currently the amateur winner is the guy that shoots the most spots.


It is ridiculous that the pros are scored different than the amateurs. Everyone should be 6-5-4-3 scoring IMO


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## nestly (Apr 19, 2015)

shawn_in_MA said:


> Everyone should be 6-5-4-3 scoring IMO


Not agreeing, or disagreeing, but what was wrong with the old 560 scoring and using X's as a tie breaker if two archers shot the same 560/1120 score? (In other words the current amateur Field scoring system)


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## EPLC (May 21, 2002)

nestly said:


> Not agreeing, or disagreeing, but what was wrong with the old 560 scoring and using X's as a tie breaker if two archers shot the same 560/1120 score? (In other words the current amateur Field scoring system)


Agreed... the NFAA has done just about everything in its power to complicate this wonderful venue. As an example: What target do I shoot? There are so many subjective answers to that question it makes my head spin. There is a simple solution to this. If you are on the right or left, shoot the side you're on. If you're on the outside, shoot the top, inside shoot the bottom. Switch positions at targets 1 & 15. Outside positions move to the opposite inside position and inside positions move to the opposite outside positions. I guess that's too simple for them to grasp.


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## EPLC (May 21, 2002)

shawn_in_MA said:


> It is ridiculous that the pros are scored different than the amateurs. Everyone should be 6-5-4-3 scoring IMO


I don't see this happening anytime soon.


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## nestly (Apr 19, 2015)

EPLC said:


> If you are on the right or left, shoot the side you're on. If you're on the outside, shoot the top, inside shoot the bottom. Switch positions at targets 1 & 15. Outside positions move to the opposite inside position and inside positions move to the opposite outside positions.


How's that different or less complicated than what's described in (4.2 & 4.3) of the NFAA Field shooting rules?


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## EPLC (May 21, 2002)

nestly said:


> How's that different or less complicated than what's described in (4.2 & 4.3) of the NFAA Field shooting rules?


It leaves no room for subjective reasoning.


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## nestly (Apr 19, 2015)

EPLC said:


> It leaves no room for subjective reasoning.


Below is 4.2 and 4.3) Explain how an archer on the left could "reason" that he should not shoot a target on the left, or how he could "reason" that he should not shoot the target on the top if he is on the outside? If you're on the left and on the outside, NFAA rules are *crystal clear* about which target to shoot, as they are for the other 3 possible shooting positions, IMO.

IMO, the "problem" is when people don't read the rules, and if they don't read the rules, it doesn't much matter how the rules are worded because they wouldn't have read them anyway.


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## EPLC (May 21, 2002)

You are reading the wrong rule. Your example does not pertain to field archery (although it should). The rule that needs fixing (and your example works just fine) is on page 45, 2. 2.1, 2.2 and 3, not page 63 which refers to the “Lake of the Woods” round, whatever the hell that is.


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## nestly (Apr 19, 2015)

On page 45, it is not possible for an archer to "reason" that they should shoot other than the left target if they are standing on the left of the marker. Also on pg 45, it says that the first archers will shoot bottom, and that the archer must continue to shoot bottom if they started on bottom for the remainder of the unit. There's no way to "reason" that you should not shoot the top for the entire 14 target unit if you started the unit on the top, or that you should not shoot left for the entire 14 target unit if you started the unit on the left.


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## Unclegus (May 27, 2003)

the indoor this winter the I/O X's are going to be counted from the get go. Everyone counted X's at Mechanicsburg for ties....


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## EPLC (May 21, 2002)

nestly said:


> On page 45, it is not possible for an archer to "reason" that they should shoot other than the left target if they are standing on the left of the marker. Also on pg 45, it says that the first archers will shoot bottom, and that the archer must continue to shoot bottom if they started on bottom for the remainder of the unit. There's no way to "reason" that you should not shoot the top for the entire 14 target unit if you started the unit on the top, or that you should not shoot left for the entire 14 target unit if you started the unit on the left.


If it’s not possible, why all the confusion? Every group I shot with had a different perception of this rule. The rules should be consistent across the board, which these two examples point out nicely. It’s too confusing, and you quite frankly made my point by posting your first example.


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## nestly (Apr 19, 2015)

Rules for Field are consistent across the board, The wording may be different between the Lakes round and Field, but both rules have the same target shot from the same shooting location when there is more than one face on the target butt. If someone doesn't know which target to shoot, it's because they aren't sufficiently familiar with the rules, beyond that I expect there are a certain number of shooters that shoot the wrong target and then "claim" they didn't know... but in reality, that's probably about the same percentage of archers that shoot the wrong target indoor. Shooting the wrong target is always going to happen, but let's not blame "rules" when it's really just a lack of attention on the shooters part. For the record, I shot a zero on my 2nd Hunter round at NFAA Nats in Mechanicsburg because I aimed my 3rd arrow on the 23-20 at the bottom target instead of the top target where I had just shot 2X's from 23yds. That had nothing to do with rules, and everything to do with me loosing focus, and there's no one and nothing to blame for that mistake other than myself.


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## EPLC (May 21, 2002)

Yes, but the wording on page 45 confuses some people. They should combine the two. In 2015 at this same shoot I’m shooting left inside position and shooting the bunny. I’m at full draw and an arrow hits my spot (second row, right side). Big duspute on that one from an NFAA Director. This year we ran into several different opinions on it. One guy even got an official and he didn’t seem to have a handle on it.


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## wa-prez (Sep 9, 2006)

The Field and Hunter rules as they are written assume two and only two archers will be at the shooting stakes at a time.

In those circumstances when 3 or all 4 shoot at once (the fans and maybe the birdie) the common practice is that the two who are the "first shooters" take their positions (and for the birdie, identify which column they will shoot) and then the other two archers take the remaining positions (and targets).


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## EPLC (May 21, 2002)

wa-prez said:


> The Field and Hunter rules as they are written assume two and only two archers will be at the shooting stakes at a time.
> 
> In those circumstances when 3 or all 4 shoot at once (the fans and maybe the birdie) the common practice is that the two who are the "first shooters" take their positions (and for the birdie, identify which column they will shoot) and then the other two archers take the remaining positions (and targets).


And here lie the problem.


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## TNMAN (Oct 6, 2009)

Agree. The "choosing" rule needs to go.


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## EPLC (May 21, 2002)

TNMAN said:


> Agree. The "choosing" rule needs to go.


Where points can be lost for shooting the “wrong” target, there is no room for confusion, subjective reasoning or anything else. This ruleset needs to be fixed. Especially troubling is the 20cm subset which is contradicted by the rules that proceed it.


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## shawn_in_MA (Dec 11, 2002)

nestly said:


> Not agreeing, or disagreeing, but what was wrong with the old 560 scoring and using X's as a tie breaker if two archers shot the same 560/1120 score? (In other words the current amateur Field scoring system)


Because that system does not allow for separation over the first 224 arrows shot for score, yet makes the 28 arrows shot on an animal round so important that it can pretty much decide the champion. Lots of 558-560 scores shot the first 2 days in the pro divisions. With the scores that the pros are shooting now, counting X's as 6 is what they want, and I think it's necessary. Braden, Paul Tedford, Stephan Hansen and I discussed this on the Archery Uncensored podcast last night (the episode will be posted soon)


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## nestly (Apr 19, 2015)

Meh... If I'm counting correctly, I've shot a total of 14 full field rounds (28 targets each) in competition this year (7 league, 3 State/Regional, 4 NFAA Nats) plus numerous 14 target league rounds on week nights. Not once has there been a misunderstanding in my group about which archer should shoot which target. I would suggest that the problem is a simple matter of the archers not communicating with each other, as prescribed by rule #2, which proceeds all the other rules about shooting/target positions. I don't know how long the Field rules have been in place, but ya'll are acting like it's a big problem, which clearly it is not, IMO. I'm not opposed to amending the rules, but I really think the problem is not with the rules, it's with the archers not fulfilling their obligation to know the rules.


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## shawn_in_MA (Dec 11, 2002)

nestly said:


> Meh... If I'm counting correctly, I've shot a total of 14 full field rounds (28 targets each) in competition this year (7 league, 3 State/Regional, 4 NFAA Nats) plus numerous 14 target league rounds on week nights. Not once has there been a misunderstanding in my group about which archer should shoot which target. I would suggest that the problem is a simple matter of the archers not communicating with each other, as prescribed by rule #2, which proceeds all the other rules about shooting/target positions. I don't know how long the Field rules have been in place, but ya'll are acting like it's a big problem, which clearly it is not, IMO. I'm not opposed to amending the rules, but I really think the problem is not with the rules, it's with the archers not fulfilling their obligation to know the rules.


I agree with you 100%. And I'm the guy who has shot (more than once) the wrong target. I think the fans are unnecessary in the field game but they certainly are not a big deal. Learn the rules and play the game.


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## nestly (Apr 19, 2015)

shawn_in_MA said:


> Because that system does not allow for separation over the first 224 arrows shot for score, yet makes the 28 arrows shot on an animal round so important that it can pretty much decide the champion. Lots of 558-560 scores shot the first 2 days in the pro divisions. With the scores that the pros are shooting now, counting X's as 6 is what they want, and I think it's necessary. Braden, Paul Tedford, Stephan Hansen and I discussed this on the Archery Uncensored podcast last night (the episode will be posted soon)


Makes sense however, everyone is still shooting the same targets so everyone still has equal potential to score. 

Also, an X in animal is really only worth 1/4th as much as an X in Field because the most points you can gain in Animal is 28 points on a round with a par of 560, compared to Field/Hunter where an archer can gain 112 points over the par score of 560, then you can potentially gain another 112 points above "par" on Hunter. So there's a 224 potential points to be gained over "par" in Field/hunter, but only 28 in Animal. Seems like a statistical wash to me. One way rewards the archer that doesn't make any big mistakes, the other provides a method for an archer to "pick up" dropped points. 

Again, I really don't care whether we score extra-middle as X or 6, but I would prefer it be done the same for pro and amateur.

BTW, I love your podcasts... will listen at first opportunity.


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## EPLC (May 21, 2002)

Question for Nestly: in all the Field and/or Hunter rounds you shot in competition, how was the target order shot for the Bunny?


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## huteson2us2 (Jun 22, 2005)

I have not shot a nationals since the last time in Darrington. At Darrington and all field shoots in the last 9 years, The animal round had a spot for an extra point. A score of 570 was average. So according to what Nestly wrote, it sounds like the spot is not scored on the animal round in PA. I also gleam that at different states, the number of days and the days the animal round is shot is different. The last three Nationals that I shot were only at Darrington, so I know how things are done there. Prior to ten years ago, I shot all over the US and at that time, we shot all 5 days for score and the animal round did not have a spot. 

As far as rules, they are interpreted differently by just about every archer I have shot with. I find the easiest way to get along with my group is to act as if I had never shot a field round before and ask the group to tell me how to shoot fans and bunnies. So I will shoot Darrington again next year. I will have to find out which days to shoot before I go sice it is changing again. The two days of Mulligans was stupid for a National tournament anyway.


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## nestly (Apr 19, 2015)

EPLC said:


> Question for Nestly: in all the Field and/or Hunter rounds you shot in competition, how was the target order shot for the Bunny?


When the targets are configured as 4 rows of 4 (as required by NFAA and PSAA) each archer shoots a vertical column in order, top to bottom or from bottom to top. If 4 archers shoot simultaneous the left-most archer shoots the left-most column and the 2nd archer from the left shoots the second column from the left, etc etc. If only 2 archers shoot at a time on the peep/bunny, the archer(s) would shoot the same column they would if there was room for all 4 to shoot simultaneously (ie first 2 shooters shoot the inside 2 columns) A few of the courses in the "league" are not NFAA compliant for the peep/bunny and have the 20cm faces configured as 8 columns of and 2 rows, in which case the group generally agrees each archer shoots what we refer to as a "postage stamp". In every case I can recall where there is not 4 columns and 4 rows of targets and room for all 4 shooters to shoot simultaneously, we discuss it ahead of time to make sure everyone is in agreement.


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## nestly (Apr 19, 2015)

huteson2us2 said:


> I have not shot a nationals since the last time in Darrington. At Darrington and all field shoots in the last 9 years, The animal round had a spot for an extra point. A score of 570 was average. So according to what Nestly wrote, it sounds like the spot is not scored on the animal round in PA.....


Nope, the colored dots are present on the Animal. 1 arrow per target with the dot being worth 21 points for a maximum of 588 points in Animal (560 +28 dots = 588)

My point is that in Field with X's counting as "6" each of the 28 targets has a maximum value of 24 points... In animal, the max value for each target is 21 points. In other words, in Field if you hit half the X's, you're going to gain 56 points in that round, in Animal, if you hit half the X's, you only gain 14 points. By my reasoning, Field X's have a lot more value than animal X's (exactly 4x as much value)


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## EPLC (May 21, 2002)

That’s exactly how we shoot it here as well without issues. But the rules say differently in that the first archers up can choose which columns they shoot from their side of the shooting stake. In at least 3 out of the 4 times I’ve shot Mechanicsburg there has been various perceptions with regard to what target to shoot. I actually had someone shoot my target as I was at full draw. “You shot my target!”.... “No I didn’t”... things went downhill from that point.


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## nestly (Apr 19, 2015)

EPLC said:


> That’s exactly how we shoot it here as well without issues. But the rules say differently in that the first archers up can choose which columns they shoot from their side of the shooting stake. In at least 3 out of the 4 times I’ve shot Mechanicsburg there has been various perceptions with regard to what target to shoot. I actually had someone shoot my target as I was at full draw. “You shot my target!”.... “No I didn’t”... things went downhill from that point.


If you were shooting 2 wide, then possibly there could be some confusion about whether the archer on the left was supposed to shoot the left-most target, or the target 2nd from the left, but either way, the 2nd shooter up on the left would choose the column on the left not yet shot. If 4 shooters were shooting simultaneously, there should be no confusion, you have to shoot the columns in the same order the archers are standing so arrows are not crossing. In the case of 3 shooters shooting simultaneously, see rule 2, you HAVE to establish the shooting position of each archer for each unit. If the archer shoots the inside left for the first target, he MUST shoot the inside left for that entire unit. He may not switch to inside right just because it's an open position. Similarly, if there are 2 shooters on the right and one on the left, then the two shooters on the right MUST shoot the right most targets on the bunny, and the single shooter on the left MUST choose whether he's shooting "inside" or "outside" and shoot the corresponding target for the entire unit. If you (your group of 3) did not establish ahead of time a specific position for each of the 3 shooters (outside left. inside left, inside right, and outside right, 1st/2nd) with 1 position being "reserved" for a non-existent shooter, that's an error on you (your group).


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## EPLC (May 21, 2002)

There were 3 shooters. Prior to the target in question I was shooting the inside left position and the two other archers were shooting the two right positions. The archer shooting the inside right position shot an arrow into the inside left target. The third archer was either a NFAA state director or councilman. It was the NFAA official that gave me the grief about the situation... after several targets of him mouthing off I had to get in his face. He then shut up. 
While I agree totally with your method of shooting this target, the rules do not go along with your/our method. Here in the NE section we do not have this issue, it's only when we go to these national shoots. It seems that different regions have different common practices with regard as to how this goes. 
When points are at stake there is no room for subjectivity. The rules should be clear, specific and not subject to speculation. This ruleset doesn't meet that criteria, so please don't go confusing this anymore with more of your common sense answers


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## shawn_in_MA (Dec 11, 2002)

nestly said:


> Makes sense however, everyone is still shooting the same targets so everyone still has equal potential to score.
> 
> Also, an X in animal is really only worth 1/4th as much as an X in Field because the most points you can gain in Animal is 28 points on a round with a par of 560, compared to Field/Hunter where an archer can gain 112 points over the par score of 560, then you can potentially gain another 112 points above "par" on Hunter. So there's a 224 potential points to be gained over "par" in Field/hunter, but only 28 in Animal. Seems like a statistical wash to me. One way rewards the archer that doesn't make any big mistakes, the other provides a method for an archer to "pick up" dropped points.
> 
> ...


I think we are saying the same thing differently...in your example of gaining 224 points over par you are considering the X as 6, in which case I agree with your entire post. I don't like the idea of "standard" scoring for field/hunter with no points available over par, then on the last day those bonus animal dots count for more than what they should imo


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## nestly (Apr 19, 2015)

EPLC said:


> There were 3 shooters. Prior to the target in question I was shooting the inside left position and the two other archers were shooting the two right positions. The archer shooting the inside right position shot an arrow into the inside left target.


Did your group establish by mutual agreement which two archers were shooting left, and which two were shooting right as per rule #2. If so, then there is no ambiguity about the rule, if it was known to the group that he was shooting on the "right side" for that unit, and he shot either of the left two columns, he shot the wrong target.... PERIOD. 

_3.2 20 cm. Targets. Each archer must choose one column of four target faces *on his
or her side of the shooting stakes*. An archer must not shoot at a column that has
already been shot by another archer_

If you were shooting in a 3 or 4 wide configuration, his "side" of the marker was the "right" side. I'm sorry it happened, but I don't see how you can point to the rules as a cause. Either your group was unclear about who was supposed to be shooting left and right, or the rules were not followed as written.


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## nestly (Apr 19, 2015)

shawn_in_MA said:


> I think we are saying the same thing differently...in your example of gaining 224 points over par you are considering the X as 6, in which case I agree with your entire post. I don't like the idea of "standard" scoring for field/hunter with no points available over par, then on the last day those bonus animal dots count for more than what they should imo


Yep, there's plenty of room for reasonable people to have different opinions on the "weight" of bonus rings. A similar conundrum exists in ASA and other organizations when it comes to determining who makes the shootoff/elimination round. Which shooter deserves it more, the one that shot more bad arrows, but picked them back up with bonus rings, or the one that never left the 10 ring in the first place?


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## Brown Hornet (Aug 8, 2002)

This confusion on the bunny would go away fast if the NFAA would stick to the way we shoot the other 4 face targets. Each bunny face has four dots per target face. If your on the top left on the 15-30 shoot the top four dots on the bunny....if your on the bottom right shoot the bottom 4 dots. 

It's pretty simple fix really. But when you bring it up questioning why we change everything for this one target the only answer you get in response is "that's not how the NFAA does it". I don't care if that's how you/we do it. It doesn't make sense to do it that way. 

I'd vote for the change in a heartbeat and every field shooter I've ever talked to about it agrees with my thoughts on how we SHOULD shoot it....unless they are on the NFAA board of course. But the other 100+ shooters I've talked to about it while shooting all agree it should change. 


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## nestly (Apr 19, 2015)

Brown Hornet said:


> This confusion on the bunny would go away fast if the NFAA would stick to the way we shoot the other 4 face targets. Each bunny face has four dots per target face. If your on the top left on the 15-30 shoot the top four dots on the bunny....if your on the bottom right shoot the bottom 4 dots.
> 
> It's pretty simple fix really. But when you bring it up questioning why we change everything for this one target the only answer you get in response is "that's not how the NFAA does it". I don't care if that's how you/we do it. It doesn't make sense to do it that way.
> 
> I'd vote for the change in a heartbeat and every field shooter I've ever talked to about it agrees with my thoughts on how we SHOULD shoot it....unless they are on the NFAA board of course. But the other 100+ shooters I've talked to about it while shooting all agree it should change.


I wouldn't be opposed to shooting the bunny as a "postage stamp" instead of a column. Just out of curiosity, would you also recommend allowing the archer to shoot the 20cm in any order. Very steep uphill/downhill bunny could be problematic as well for the postage stamp configuration. We have one such bunny on a course in our area and if the Field bunny were shot as a postage stamp, the arrows in the bottom target could obscure the spots on the upper target if the bottom archer was shooting ahead of the archer shooting at the top target.


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## Brown Hornet (Aug 8, 2002)

nestly said:


> I wouldn't be opposed to shooting the bunny as a "postage stamp" instead of a column. Just out of curiosity, would you also recommend allowing the archer to shoot the 20cm in any order. Very steep uphill/downhill bunny could be problematic as well for the postage stamp configuration. We have one such bunny on a course in our area and if the Field bunny were shot as a postage stamp, the arrows in the bottom target could obscure the spots on the upper target if the bottom archer was shooting ahead of the archer shooting at the top target.


It probably wouldn't be as much of a problem as you think. Not a problem on the Pro Series and they shoot the bunny as extreme as I've ever seen any place. 


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## nestly (Apr 19, 2015)

Brown Hornet said:


> It probably wouldn't be as much of a problem as you think. Not a problem on the Pro Series and they shoot the bunny as extreme as I've ever seen any place.


Do they "walk up" on the bunny in Pro series? The few I've seen on video were not shot as walk ups, so all the arrows are basically all pointing back at the shooting stake. That's not the case when there's an arrow shot uphill into the bottom target(s) 35 or 30 feet, and then you walk up to 25 or 20 feet and try to shoot at the top target, now the archer shooting top has to shoot across/through the arrows of the archer shooting the bottom target(s). I acknowledge it would be a relative rarity, but so too, IMO, is confusion over how to shoot bunnies in the current configuration.


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## Brown Hornet (Aug 8, 2002)

nestly said:


> Do they "walk up" on the bunny in Pro series? The few I've seen on video were not shot as walk ups, so all the arrows are basically all pointing back at the shooting stake. That's not the case when there's an arrow shot uphill into the bottom target(s) 35 or 30 feet, and then you walk up to 25 or 20 feet and try to shoot at the top target, now the archer shooting top has to shoot across/through the arrows of the archer shooting the bottom target(s). I acknowledge it would be a relative rarity, but so too, IMO, is confusion over how to shoot bunnies in the current configuration.


I've shot a few super steep bunnies.... Durham County in NC has a ridiculous one that Jarlicker built. 

You would think it would be an issue shooting the "postage stamp" but when you think about it. There isn't really going to be an issue. Your talking 20-35'... at full draw you don't even see the other spots in your scope. 

As for how to shoot it in the current format.... if your on the bottom left on the 15-30. Shoot the left inside row. Top shoots the outside. I've been in groups that the bottom shot the outside but it's rare. Just figure it out when you get to the target. 

If your shooting 4 across and aren't sure and don't want to ask.... just be slow to the stake and fall in line on your side [emoji12]


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## Lazarus (Sep 19, 2005)

For anyone that would like to see changes made to certain rules I should remind you that you can write an agenda item pertaining to said change and have it submitted at the next directors meeting.

I WOULD certainly encourage this too. The Good Lord knows we need to make some changes.


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## Brown Hornet (Aug 8, 2002)

Lazarus said:


> For anyone that would like to see changes made to certain rules I should remind you that you can write an agenda item pertaining to said change and have it submitted at the next directors meeting.
> 
> I WOULD certainly encourage this too. The Good Lord knows we need to make some changes.


Very true....I've thought about it but don't really know the process. 


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## Lazarus (Sep 19, 2005)

Brown Hornet, contact your state director. It's not too difficult.


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## IGluIt4U (Sep 22, 2004)

Lazarus said:


> Brown Hornet, contact your state director. It's not too difficult.


Oh, that's gonna be trouble... :lol:


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## IGluIt4U (Sep 22, 2004)

The rules are a little ambiguous, but honestly, as has been mentioned by several, a moments discussion before the round, or when approaching a bunny or fan amongst the group will go a long way towards removing the potential embarrassment of shooting the wrong face/s. We have all done it, if you haven't, you will, eventually and in almost every case, it was either a mental fart on the shooters part, or... totally avoidable, cause if you ask, we'll tell you. It is part of what has always set Field Archery apart for me from all the other venues and it's also just part of the game.. you need to keep your head screwed on straight the whole round!! :cheers:


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## nestly (Apr 19, 2015)

IGluIt4U said:


> The rules are a little ambiguous, but honestly, as has been mentioned by several, a moments discussion before the round, or when approaching a bunny or fan amongst the group will go a long way towards removing the potential embarrassment of shooting the wrong face/s. We have all done it, if you haven't, you will, eventually and in almost every case, it was either a mental fart on the shooters part, or... totally avoidable, cause if you ask, we'll tell you. It is part of what has always set Field Archery apart for me from all the other venues and it's also just part of the game.. you need to keep your head screwed on straight the whole round!! :cheers:


Agree, and I'm gonna stop now because frankly I love Field archery more than any other form of target archery and the disagreements over what I consider insignificant things is making me sad that others can't/don't enjoy it as much as I do. If the bunny rules get changed, or the fans get eliminated, or the X scoring changes, it won't have any affect on whether I enjoy it or not, so if it makes a difference to someone/anyone else, please do what Laz suggested and contact your state director if there's something that's keeping you from enjoying Field as much as possible.


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## IGluIt4U (Sep 22, 2004)

It's a fun game with good people that play the game. It's how I learned, years ago, knowing zilch, showed up at a local shoot and before the day was over, I had shot a full field round with a group of pro/soon to be pro shooters that took me under their wing, showed me how the game is played and got me hooked, with my hunting bow and a handful of camo arrows... I had a lot to learn, but that day was the start of a lot of good times shooting archery with a group that became good friends. Sorry I didn't make it to Mechanicsburg this year, but I told Hornet, I'll be there next time they hold Nat's, I promise.


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