# Hoyt Formula Series Recurve : My Thoughts



## Aspirin Buster (Mar 25, 2004)

Many of you probably noted my thread last year discussing how impressed I was with the performance of the Formula RX bows for my archery exhibitions. Some added to the threads, some criticized me and a few just read the thread and moved on. 

I did a video interview with Douglas Denton around the time the Formula bows were launched and this appeared on Bowtube at www.bowhunting.net. (Under "Addington visits Hoyt" I believe is the title). I do an archery exhibition across the country and the finale of the show used to be a baby aspirin shot from mid air. In 2011 I started doing mustard seeds! This bow is very accurate. Impressively accurate. Having performed for celebrities at private functions, on stage at major sports shows and related events, and also at the request of Jim Easton at the 2003 FITA World Championship in NYC for the media. At that particular show CNN's Jeanne Moos covered the show and I had her shooting a recurve on camera.

Anyway, I have great respect for target archers and target archery. As an instinctive shooter it was never my cup of tea but insure respect those that do it. I've known several of the shooters such as Jay Barrs and others and I know this style of shooting requires great discipline and perseverance. Ann Clark tried to get me interested in JOAD as a teen but my roots were already in instinctive shooting and by the time I was 18 in was already on stage doing my shows. That was 27 years ago....

I posted here originally because I knew if I could tell such a huge difference in the Formula bows with what I did, that in the hands of the worlds best target archers they would be very accurate. After talking with Douglas Denton at the 2012 ATA show imam really looking forward to trying the HPX/F7 with foam limbs. I will post results here once I get it set 

I think some people discounted the fact I do a stage show at close range and so my opinion of a bow wasn't relevant to their style shooting. I disagree. Think of it this way. I do thirty or so major events across the US every year. The shows provide a thrower at each venue, which means I will have thirty different throwers too. The targets and baby aspirin never fly the same, and it takes accuracy to hit the targets consistently. I believe that hitting a flying baby aspirin from mid air with the bow behind your back is as tough as hitting a ten ring in a competitive situation. Pressure is pressure. 

One more note, Al Henderson was the first to call my attention to the mental side of shooting. Although he was an Olympic coach I was very impressed with him when I met him and I read his articles and book. He had a big impact on me. 

Anyway, I will post results after the new bow is set up.

Thanks for reading.






I have started a new thread because next week I will be setting up a new Hoyt HPX/F7 with foam limbs. I will post results on this thread once the bow is set up and tuned.


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## Aspirin Buster (Mar 25, 2004)

I apologize for the errors in this post, I don't always catch mistakes when typing with my iPad.


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## Harperman (Sep 3, 2006)

Aspirin Buster said:


> I apologize for the errors in this post, I don't always catch mistakes when typing with my iPad.


Frank, keep doing what You do, and let the haters hate....Your Archery style isnt what I'm into personally, but You are insanely talented, dedicated to Your goals and traveling to the shows, and have attracted alot of folks both young and old to Archery in a positive way, as well as bringing Archery it's self to the mainstream Public in a positive light....Rock on, Frank!........Jim


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## Aspirin Buster (Mar 25, 2004)

Thanks Jim. Yeah, With regards to those that toss insults they don't realize that we are all part of the archery family and that I learned to ignore jeers from the bleachers years ago... 27 years on stage gives you thick skin. 

Teddy Roosevelt said it's the man in the arena that gets the credit... 

Thanks so much for your post,
Frank


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## Aspirin Buster (Mar 25, 2004)

Reading the original post reminded me why I typically post here on my laptop instead of my IPad. It's harder for me to catch mistakes on the ipad and sometimes it seems to have a mind of it's own.... 

Next week when I get the new bow together I'll revisit this thread. I am shooting the new F7 limbs with my Formula RX riser this weekend and they shoot great. I am anxious to try the new riser.


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## goodgrief (Feb 15, 2007)

Do you ever shoot your bows like everyone else is ? Or is it all behind the back ?


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## Aspirin Buster (Mar 25, 2004)

Goodgrief
I was a protege of Rev Stacy Groscup. In 1994 I started the behind the back shooting and stayed with it. I noticed no one had ever done it and that the media loved it. I wanted to be the first to do some shoots... so then I went to three baby aspirin/three arrows in 2007 and in 2011 started doing mustard seeds with spotters from the audience to help conform the hits. The behind the back thing is out of the box... when I shot at the FITA WORLD CHAMPIONSHIP in 2003 in NYC CNN's Jeanne Moos called me "The William Tell of popping pills." When I went to the Fred Hall show in California, all six LA TV stations filmed me. Sometimes being different helps draw attention to archery... and to my show. Now you will see some of the exhibition shooters doing some behind the back stuff... which is cool because it's been my signature shot for more than 18 years now.

Thanks for asking. There will be some cool new video coming to YOUTUBEvery soon from the Chicago show I did this weekend.


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## Aspirin Buster (Mar 25, 2004)

AT Friends
Although I have not set up my new Formula riser, I did use the new F7 limbs this past week in Chicago at a show. Anyone else notice how smooth they pull?!? Doug Denton told me I may notice that and I did. Saturday I hit the baby aspirin tablets the first try and then turned around and hit the mustard seeds first try. I give the thrower ALOT of credit, he worked for the show and did a great job, my HOYT bow of course, but God gave me the eyesight..... so HE also gets all the credit. 

Once I get the riser set up I'll post more results. These f7 limbs are awesome. I plan to get some for my other riser!

Frank


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Ouch.

[

I wonder what Byron Ferguson is doing these days? I really enjoyed his performances.


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## Harperman (Sep 3, 2006)

Highfield...whats up??...Frank hawks Hoyt equipment...What's that to You??...Hoyt sponsors Frank, Frank uses Hoyt gear, and tells folks how good it is...That's Business....Not wanting an argument, just sayin'....Harperman


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## Harperman (Sep 3, 2006)

Highfield....I understand fully what is involved in "Trick Shot" Archery....I also understand fully the impact that Trick Shots have made on Archery, and Shooting Sports in general...How many kids in the 50's grew up watching Howard Hill's trick shooting became Archers, and better Men/Women for taking up the bow and arrow??...Trick shots with the bow, or firearms do entertain the masses, and they do bring new blood into this great Sport/Pastime/Hobby of Ours...I see nothing wrong with that...Hawking one's choice of "Gear" from a paid sponsor is just the means to and end...No harm in that, to me, either...Is Hoyt equipment top shelf, reliable gear??....Millions of folks World-Wide think so...it's not like Frank, or anyone else is trying to convince folks to buy some junk, or that Frank is trying to convince folks that if They buy a Hoyt bow, that they too can shoot aspirins out of the air from behind their backs...That would be an issue with me, but otherwise, Frank's shows do no harm, and only encourage kids (and Adults, as well) to put the video game controllers down, and maybe try some Archery...Thats a good thing, to me anyway...I gotta add that Frank's my "Homeboy", I have Family that live near Frank, and I'm from Tyler Mountain, myself....I gotta support my fellow Mountaineer's, Ya know??....Take care.......Jim


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Harperman, you guys are talking apples and oranges. 

Frank, Brady, Jake, or anyone else that wants to insist that it's the bow that makes the difference really paints themselves into a corner, because we all know they were great archers prior to using those bows. If somehow they were unknowns who couldn't hit a bull in the you-know-what with a bass fiddle, then we might easily be convinced that the bows really are making that big a difference. It's easy to make an argument sound convincing when there is no way to disprove it.

I think Frank's a good guy and one heck of an archery talent, but I'm not naive enough to think that somehow there wasn't a connection between his "return" to a certain manufacturer and his all the sudden new presence on this and other archery forums. It's pretty transparent. Other archers who've been picked up by the same company all the sudden launched big marketing campaigns too. Guess it's part of the contract, or at least, the expectations. It would be more interesting and believeable if it weren't so predictable.

But marketing and hype work, and all the sheep that rush to the "checkout" button have proven that time and again.

I learned early on in target archery that real, unbiased performance data is 1) almost impossible to obtain, 2) even more difficult to find from a reliable source, and 3) squashed as quickly as possible by one particular company that has the most to lose. The top bows from every manufacturer are capable of shooting the same scores, so it really comes down to a matter of features, feel, customer service, relationship with that company, etc. for the average archer. And let's not fool ourselves - for the top level archers it almost always comes down to money. Be it contingency money or contracts or equipment or all three. That's the deciding factor. Not the bow. Haven't we accepted this yet?

John


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## ryan b. (Sep 1, 2005)

all of those same arguments/criticisms can be made for hunting equipment, stabilizers and even arrows.

it doesnt invalidate a guys preference for a hunting setup just becaue he is taking deer at 30yds with the latest, greatest compound bow, sights , arrows releases etc just because those setups are capable of longer range shooting. 

..obviously someone could do this hunting mumbo jumbo with a 20year old compound or even a fiberglass kids bow. 


..maybe a formula and f7s DO feel better for the man than a fiberglass kids bow. no, he doesnt NEED the setup but it is something he prefers, for many reasons (great sponsorship being one of them).


i dont think any target archer is going to rush out and sell their INNO CXT after reading one of Franks posts but then again I dont think thats why he is sponsored by hoyt in the first place.


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## Harperman (Sep 3, 2006)

John..I'm with ya 100% on Your post....All I'm saying about Frank is that I dont see the harm in what he does, and try to see the positive in it....Simple as that...If Highfield doesn't like Frank, that's His business, but why knock Frank around on the board?...I've never seen Frank's show, not real interested in that type or bow shooting.....But I dont feel the need to get on an Archery board and hack on him, either...I've never understood the sponsorship from Hoyt, either, but again, that's between Hoyt, and Frank....Take care, John!.........Jim


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Harperman, you're a good man. Good on you for focusing on the positives because if Frank's shows bring people together and inspire them to pick up a bow, then in the end it's all good. And you're right. Any company has the right to sponsor whoever they feel, and likewise any archer has the right to promote said company in whatever fashion they see fit. Just as anyone reading along here has the right to ignore me, you Highfield or Frank if they think we're leading them astray. 

Ain't it great! 

John


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## Aspirin Buster (Mar 25, 2004)

The new F7 limbs are awesome. Hope to get the riser set up tomorrow!

John, have you shot a Formula yet?


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## ArtV (Jan 29, 2008)

Like the saying goes...it ain't the equipment. It's still and always will be the monkey behind the bow. Watch some of Ron LaClairs trick shots...some amazing shooting because he actually does them in a hunting style, truly instinctive and at a distance. 

Frank does a great show, has developed a nitch, learned how to exploit it, and makes a buck doing it. Enterprising for sure. But the key word is "trick" It's about being a showman and then being an archer. But, not close to comparable to Olympic level shooting.

Frank, Not many have shot the Formula......do you sell your old bows after Hoyt sends you a new one or do you have to give them back?

Just curious.
Art


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## Aspirin Buster (Mar 25, 2004)

Art
In 27 years of bows, I have every single bow I've ever used to hit aspirin with on stage except two. Here's the story of the two I didn't save...

Around 1997 or 98 I was invited to the historic King ranch t perform my show for the family that owns the 825,000 acre ranch. I set my show up under a mesquite tree on the main lawn of the big, white historic mansion or main house. While between shows, I was shooting with the wildlife manager Butch Thompson. I let him shoot my bow and he shot a robin hood with it. So I signed the bow and gave it to him. 

The second bow is a burnt orange Formula. Last year I was honored to do archery shows for coach Mack Brown and the Texas longhorn football team (university of Texas.). This fall I went to visit coach Brown in Austin and presented him with my burnt orange Hoyt bow. Coach Brown has it in his office.

Thats where the two bows are. I have the rest, signed and put up. Retired I suppose is what id call them. I turn down offers to sell them. I want my son to inherit a pretty thorough collection someday. 

I have also given new bows to folks like Toby Keith, George Strait, Earl Campbell and other high profile people. Fred Bear taught me the importance of putting a bow in the hands of high profile people.

Although some paint it different sometimes, I try and look at the big picture. Hundreds of VIPs are in coach Browns office each year. They will now see a burnt orange bow!

That's the story, thanks Art.
Frank


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

> I have also given new bows to folks like Toby Keith, George Strait, Earl Campbell and other high profile people. Fred Bear taught me the importance of putting a bow in the hands of high profile people.


Frank, you're a great salesman alright, which I'm sure is why you have a sponsors contract. Fred was a great salesman too. He had a company to run and a bottom line to keep. 

Guess I'm just not that interested in the "high profile people" or in name dropping. Those folks can take care of themselves, and more often than not that's their highest priority anyway. I'm more interested in putting bows in the hands of "low profile" people like my JOAD and 4-H kids. Things like the NASP program and the Genesis bow have introduced archery to 1000's of kids who never would have had the opportunity to ever try the sport.

Some folks are impressed by big names, glitz, glamour and fancy shows. Guess I never really was. 

Tell you what. You keep putting your sponsor's bows in the hands of celebrities for their trophy collections, and we'll keep putting whatever bow we can in the hands of kids who's parents can't afford to buy them a bow, and that way we'll have both ends covered.

Sounds like a good thing to me.



> John, have you shot a Formula yet?


Frank, have you shot a W&W or Samick or PSE or SKY or Bernardini or BEST or Border yet? 

To answer your question, about a year ago I asked Hoyt if they would send me a formula bow to test. They declined. Not sure what they were afraid of, but I was willing to give it an honest evaluation and if it had outperformed my other bows, I would have been shooting it at the Olympic trials. I'm convinced they are good bows. Hoyt has always made good bows (especially risers), and probably always will. I'm busy raising three kids, working for a living and paying for college tuition. Frankly I can't afford to buy a new bow every year or two, but if you want to send me one to test, I'd be glad to put it through the paces alongside bows I have from several other companies.

As it was, I took my trusty "old" Hoyt Axis riser with a pair of Samick Limbs to the trials and shot a personal best 36 arrow score with it at the end of the qualification round. To my knowlege, I was the only archer that made the top 16 cut at the trials using different brands of riser and limbs. I wonder why that is?

Unlike many archers, I am not satisfied to take someone's word about the performance and shooting characteristics of a bow. I only form my opinions after actually handling and shooting one myself. At the moment I have limbs from 5 manufacturers and risers from 4 companies (including Hoyt) in my workshop and one more on the way. I am able to test them to my satisfaction by using digital scales to calculate draw force curves and chronographs to determine actual performance, in addition to feel, sound, ease of tuning, forgiveness and ultimately performance on the target.

I don't earn my living through archery like you and so many of the other recognized archers, which allows me to be truly objective about the equipment I use. Companies have sent me equipment to test because of this, and others - like Hoyt - have declined, most likely because of this. No company is going to control what I have to say about a piece of equipment if someone asks me about it. 

How many sponsored archers who claim to be shooting "the best bow ever" have tested equipment from all the major brands? Really? And of those who have, how many are you going to hear objective feedback from? 

Frank, we all know how marketing works these days. No need to remind us. Just keep shooting your shows and impress those who you can and be a good ambassdor for archery. Nothing in the world wrong with that. Byron Ferguson has done this for a long, long time, and you follow in that tradition. I understand Ron LaClair has put on some amazing performances too. I've had the pleasure of meeting Ron and shooting with Byron, but haven't yet seen your show. Hopefully I will someday. I wish you all the best in your performances.

Incidentally, I've always been a bit confused as to why your sponsor has you shooting a bow that really wasn't designed for what you do or the audience you perform for. Seems to me the Buffalo would be a lot more practical for both you and your audience. But hey, if that's what they want you to shoot, and it works for you, then go for it.

John


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## Aspirin Buster (Mar 25, 2004)

John

Not all my time is spent doing the big sports shows. I spend a great deal of time to speak and perform for a variety of Children's events-- from Special Olympics, SAY NO programs, countless Church, 4-H and Scout camps. I have also worked with a local hospital to do shows and speak to their drug addicted teens from the drug addicted teen unit. I also remember speaking and performing at a correctional facility for youth. Like you, that I find the highest rewards at those events even though it often pays little or nothing. So therefore I have to balance those shows out with the big performances that do pay the bills.

As far as the celebrities, I think Fred Bear was the one to encourage me to do that so that it kept archery in the spotlight. Anytime you have archery getting attention--whether in a movie or in the hands of a high profile person it helps.

It takes us all doing what we can do to promote the sport. The true unsung heroes are those camp counselors, state archery organizations and others who teach archery to first time archers. Without them the sport would not grow. Good archery pro shops also help. We are all the family of archers.

I know you are a golfer, and you know that the golf companies want people using and endorsing their products that can help put their products in a good light and help market them. It's the same with archery. Why would archery be different from other sports? Most use pro staffers and endorsement deals. I think sometimes people make assumptions about archery pro staffers, there are alot of misconceptions out there. I don't discuss my arrangements, it's between my sponsors and myself. But having been with Hoyt 22 years, I consider it my "home." Everyone there from the bottom to the top are eager to help and work very hard to be the best. 

Thank you so much for all you do. I've seen you give new people solid advice on these forums. Even though you and I don't always see 100% eye to eye, I do consider you a good guy and good for the sport of archery. 

Best of luck. 

Frank


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

I knew you did those things as well Frank. Good for you. You and I both know that those are the things that really matter. Personally I could care less whether Mack Brown has a burnt orange bow in his office. He has enough money to buy 1000 of them if he wanted to. And you're "in the business" so you work within that framework and I respect that. Just don't be surprised when those of us who aren't bound by the same limitations point out inconsistencies or obvious sponsor script. After being beat over the head with it long enough, it does make one a little weary, that's all.

What you do is nothing short of awesome and I hope that being sponsored by Hoyt helps you continue doing it for as long as you are able. But honestly, feedback on this particular forum from folks like Jake or Brady or Joe McGlyn about actual performance results is probably more helpful and seen as more credible. That shouldn't surprise you because I know you're familiar with what we ask these bows to do.

So I tell you what. You send me a Formula bow to test and I'll send you a few others to try. Then you'll really know how good your equipment is.  kay?

kidding of course. I know you can't shoot anything else on stage. My brother was assimilated by the borg and has been trying to get me to shoot his formula bow for a while now. So when I get a little time, I'll do just that. I'm actually looking forward to it, 'cause I've heard they're nice. 

John


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## Aspirin Buster (Mar 25, 2004)

John
I had trouble with my Formula at first. I couldn't hit the baby aspirin..... it bothered me. The bow was tuned, everything was right... and I felt great. So what was the problem?!? I spent time going over it... and then called Doug at Hoyt. My theory was that the arrow wasn't out of the paradox and was skirtting around the baby aspirin...most of my shows are 21'. That's the only room some shows have. We went over it and I decided to drop my 145 gr field point to 100 grains and it stiffened my arrow. That was it!!! My dad and Doug were very wise.. I've never had a bow do what that bow does! And last weekend in Chicago I hit the baby aspirin shot first shot and the mustard seed shot first time.

I think Earl Hoyt, Al Henderson and some of my other late friends would tell you that accuracy is accuracy... hitting a baby aspirin requires concentration, etc just as shooting a ten ring. Pressure is pressure. The fact that Joe Johnston, first President of Hoyt, traveled on the road with me for a week, meant a great deal to me. When Mr. Easton asked me to come to NYC in 2003 to perform for the media at the FITA World Championships, well, it was a huge honor. 

I have great respect for these Olympic archers. I do believe there is common ground and that some of the mental techniques I use can be used by them on the competitive field. And accuracy is accuracy. 

I laugh at the time and say that I feel like a circus act... but that's my role in the sport. I get attention in the media and at shows for archery. Kids get excited at my shows. Then hopefully they try archery.

Do I self promote? you bet. But I also go out of my way to help others. I think even you and I found common ground. I'll be in Texas in 2012 doing shows, hope you can make it.

Frank


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

> I've never had a bow do what that bow does!


And others have said the same thing, and I believe them. I've not seen anything but good products come out of Doug's shop. I really like what he's done with the lineup - esp. for the more affordable bows - and would love to talk riser design with him someday.

But, having said all that, what other bows have you tried? Because personally I believe that W&W's newest bow is the equal to the formula bows, and is even a little more refined. I bet you Butch Johnson would agree, as he's currently in the top 3 of the Olympic trials process at the age of what, 55? I thought it quite interesting to see his gradual departure from the Hoyt lineup. I suspect I know why that was, but it's just my theory. 

Frank, the promotional and performance aspects of professional archers are so intertwined that it's really impossible for the average person to know if someone like yourself is 1) being objectively honest, and 2) given all the various brands of equipment a thorough test before making their decision. Wouldn't it be nice to have that kind of freedom? To know for sure?

People would know that if I carried a Formula bow into an event, that it's only because it out-performed every other manufacturer's bows that I could get my hands on, and not because of the paycheck attached to it.

It's really a paradox in that the higher up the food chain an archer goes, the more opportunity and the less freedom they have to select equipment. Likewise, the unranked or unsponsored archers are free to offer pure objective feedback, but then they don't have the credibility of a top tier archer. So, there really is no way for a regular person to know the score... It's frustrating for sure.



> I laugh at the time and say that I feel like a circus act... but that's my role in the sport. I get attention in the media and at shows for archery. Kids get excited at my shows. Then hopefully they try archery.


Frank, there's nothing in the world wrong with what you do and I'm glad you're out there doing it. Just like Byron and Ron and Howard Hill before them. Awe them all you can, and bring them into the sport. That's a great thing. I've shot with Byron and have seen his setups and watched Wanda toss for him. Are the shots he makes impossible? Of course not, but they are hard enough, especially in front of a live crowd, and he obviously trains and trains and trains to be able to make those shots on demand, which I greatly respect. I'm sure you do the same. I don't think anyone (well maybe one guy) has an issue with what you do. Least of all me. Hope to get to finally meet you in person this year. I'll look up your show dates. Too bad your shows aren't outdoors, or else we could shoot together like Byron and I did a few times in Southern Illinois. He shot lifesavers out of the air at 20 feet and I shot balloons at 70 meters and the crowds loved it.

John


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## Hunter Dave (Jul 17, 2007)

I've been watching this thread and have been kinda disappointed by the archers-bashing-archers comments. 

This thread was supposed to be about Frank's thoughts regarding the Hoyt Formula, so could we just get back to that?

Frank, can you tell us more about your bow, how it's set up, and your evaluation compared with previous models? I, for one, am interested. Also, would you please comment on what you are using for an arrow rest? Thanks.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

> I had trouble with my Formula at first. I couldn't hit the baby aspirin..... it bothered me. The bow was tuned, everything was right... and I felt great. So what was the problem?!? I spent time going over it... and then called Doug at Hoyt. My theory was that the arrow wasn't out of the paradox and was skirtting around the baby aspirin...most of my shows are 21'. That's the only room some shows have. We went over it and I decided to drop my 145 gr field point to 100 grains and it stiffened my arrow. That was it!!!


Frank, the bow may have been tuned, but the arrow wasn't stiff enough for that point weight. Pretty simple stuff there. Shoot fita and you can bare shaft tune at 70 meters by merely changing the weight of the nocks a few grains. Yikes!


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## Aspirin Buster (Mar 25, 2004)

John
Whats funny is that the particular arrow and 145 gr field point was a combo I'd used with several bows in a row... my bows changed but my arrow remained the same. The Formula really is faster and has more energy in the arrow than my earlier bows. That new F7 limb seems to draw so smooth, it is something else. They keep getting better and better!

Frank


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

> They keep getting better and better!


Yes, every pair of limbs is unique, and they are getting better. The newer SKY, Border and W&W limbs I have all easily eclipse the performance of my beloved SKY Jacks that I used in Athens. I have had the same arrows tune at 47# with one set, 45.5# with the next, 46 with the third, and so on. The effects of limb design and efficiency has been covered ad nauseum here in the past, with some pretty good information provided from Vittorio and Sid among others. It's interesting reading for the technically inclined.

But the affect on dynamic spine alone isn't a full measure of a limb's efficiency, and really says nothing ultimately about accuracy, especially at indoor ranges. For example, the fastest pair of limbs I have (Border Hex-6) are also the most "gentle" on the spine, allowing you to use a lighter overall arrow. So for us long distance shooters, the benefits are twofold. A high performing limb that breaks down the spine only serves to defeat itself somewhat at long ranges because you are then required to use a stiffer (and heavier) arrow or lighter point weight, sacrificing valuable FOC in the end. 

The only limbs I've ever seen that give me "something for nothing" compared to older limbs are my new SKY and Border limbs. Esp. the Borders. 

Again, that's just talking performance though, which is only part of the accuracy equasion.

John


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## Matt Z (Jul 22, 2003)

limbwalker said:


> But the affect on dynamic spine alone isn't a full measure of a limb's efficiency, and really says nothing ultimately about accuracy, especially at indoor ranges. For example, the fastest pair of limbs I have (Border Hex-6) are also the most "gentle" on the spine, allowing you to use a lighter overall arrow. So for us long distance shooters, the benefits are twofold. A high performing limb that breaks down the spine only serves to defeat itself somewhat at long ranges because you are then required to use a stiffer (and heavier) arrow or lighter point weight, sacrificing valuable FOC in the end.


Not to get this thread totally off track, but.... Funny you mention this John, as it's been a worry on my mind as I need/want to get new equipment. The poundage is now an issue when buying new limbs across the board. The first and only time I've experienced it was Hoyt's G3 limbs. They were kinetically faster than my Vectors, causing my arrows to be weak, therefore causing me to spend more cash on new arrows. 

So now when I'm looking at the newest, I'm debating getting lower poundage (2-4lbs mind you) to make sure they fall inline with my arrow spine. Nothing more upsetting when you're working with a budget to update equipment only to find out you need to spend more...

Frank, what does the Formula bring to you technically that allows you to perform better? (looking for more than just "marketing fluff" words)


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

I hear ya' Matt. Two dozen good arrows costs as much as a pair of limbs, esp. once you consider the time you have in building them and testing them on other platforms. It is an often overlooked or misunderstood issue when testing new equipment. 

It's also the reason the same arrow spine won't work for two archers with seemingly the same spec's. 

Frank, do you use aluminum arrows in your shows? I know Byron was shooting pretty heavy Easton Legacy shafts. 2219's I think, even at his draw length. But IIRC he shot upwards of 65# too.

One thing I've often wondered about in your style of shooting is what's your draw length? It would have to be much shorter than normal. Did you and Doug spend any time talking about the length of bow that would work best for your draw length?


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## leongarrett (Mar 15, 2006)

Byron was shooting a 70# bow with Easton Legacy shafts.


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## Aspirin Buster (Mar 25, 2004)

I shoot Acc 371. The bow is 45# and is the longest bow I can get. 

I think consistancy would be one thing I have noticed with the formula. Although I am an instinctive shooter, these Formula bows are fun once you have them tuned--- effortless. I have confidence that when they are tuned and I am "on" I will not miss. I have added some very difficult shots... things like asking a lady on the front row for a piece of popcorn.. then having the thrower toss it and hitting it first try. Confidence would be the 2nd thing the Formula has brought to the table. The bow seems to stay tuned too. 

I have also added a mustard seed shot to the show. I bring up five or six spotters from the audience at random so they can witness it is the arrow and not the feather hitting the seeds. 

I believe the new f7 Limbs are smoother too...they seem to draw so smoothly. I used them last week. I'll be setting the new riser up this week.

More notes here once I do.

Matt, I rely on Douglas for technical info. However, in my hands, I can tell a bow that's accurate from one I have to work at to hit my mark..if that makes sense. I have used wooden bows from 1953 to hit the baby aspirin, but it took real effort. The new Formula bows are so forgiving and easy for me to shoot it's awesome. Simply awesome.

It took me a little while to warm to the Formula but once I did I LOVE it.

Frank


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

leongarrett said:


> Byron was shooting a 70# bow with Easton Legacy shafts.


What a stud. He's not nearly as tall as I am, but he's twice as thick! And probably twice as nice too.


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## lizard (Jul 4, 2003)

We, Coombes, have seen Frank's show at Ann Clark's Birthday, and it is nothing short of amazing! I bet if Frank's desire is to ever shoot indoor distances, he could probably do pretty well, and maybe even be able to shoot a tournament shooting behind his back! BUT, that is not his preference, his "Trick" shooting is what he practices, and if you DO see his show, you'll be amazed! 
Formula RX IS AN AWESOME BOW! I shoot it barebow, and love it! In fact, our JDT kids and I counted how many FRX bows we have in our club, and I think there is a nice lucky 13-15 FRX bows, soon to add 3-5 of the "new and improved" HPX! The F7 LIMBS are FAST! Amazingly fast!


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## Aspirin Buster (Mar 25, 2004)

Thanks! Ann's party was great! ALOT of archery talent there--- all of you and Darrell Pace... Ann herself... many great archers in the audience.

Thanks again for posting.

Frank


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## Aspirin Buster (Mar 25, 2004)

Ann says her next party will be her 100th birthday party! Can't wait. 14 years to go..
Frank


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## julle (Mar 1, 2009)

Did you know that a full win&win bow can also shoot and hit things behind the back ?


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Julle, what's all that white stuff covering everything? ha, ha.

It's Feb. 3rd and 75 degrees F. here. 

Cool post.

John


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## julle (Mar 1, 2009)

haha, that's something we rarely see in the Netherlands called snow  Don't mind caveman scream, It was my 4th shot ever behind the back and I didn't really expect to hit it YET


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## Matt Z (Jul 22, 2003)

Straight from the man himself...


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## Aspirin Buster (Mar 25, 2004)

Doug is the man... I love my Formula RX bows and can't wait to try the new HPX! The F7 limbs are great too!

Frank


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Good to see Doug explaining his designs. Nice job. Hoyt did good to pick him up. My fomer next-door neighbor Don Wasilewski (carbon matrix engineer) was another good hire. No doubt they have some great talent working for them.


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## Aspirin Buster (Mar 25, 2004)

Doug is sharp, thanks for posting that video! I did one with him on bowtube when the Formula RX first launched. 

Earl Hoyt would be proud!

Frank


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## Aspirin Buster (Mar 25, 2004)

I tried the F7 limbs, they are very smooth... Doug was right as usual.

Here's the riser, will set it up next week.

Frank


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

> Earl Hoyt would be proud!


I'm sure he would appreciate the design and finished quality. One thing folks always said about Earl was that nothing ever left his shop with even the smallest flaw in it. I can attest to that. Both sets of SKY limbs I bought from Ann were considered "blem's" but it took me literally a year to figure out why - it was that minor of an issue (paint). He really had a high professional standard. 

The new owners of Earl's company are working on some pretty neat stuff too... 

John


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## Aspirin Buster (Mar 25, 2004)

I have a Sky Longbow he made me... Very proud of the workmanship... It's a great shooting bow too.

I like Doug Denton alot, very sharp....


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## Matt Z (Jul 22, 2003)

Frank, why not use the Buffalo? Seems like the HPX is overkill?


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## Aspirin Buster (Mar 25, 2004)

I do use a Buffalo sometimes, it's a great bow. However I have always used Hoyt's flagship target recurves since Day 1 with Hoyt and I guess I'm spoiled. Last weekend I hit the baby aspirin shot and the mustard seed shot first try... I love the accuracy and consistency of the Formula bows. 

Accuracy is accuracy and I like to have confidence that I'm going to hit my mark as often as possible in front of an audience. Last year I did a show with 15,000 in the audience. When that Formula is in my hand I know I can deliver a good show...


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Frank, what do you think the Formula does that the Buffalo doesn't do?


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## Aspirin Buster (Mar 25, 2004)

John
Oh, I have done every shot in my show down to the baby aspirin with the Buffalo... It performs very well. But I like the longest bow I can get, which with the long riser and long limbs makes my Formula bows around 72". My Buffalo is 62". I just like the longer bow and enjoy shooting target bows. The Buffalo is the best shooting hunting recurve I've ever drawn... Hands down. I love mine. If I drive to a show I usually bring my Buffalo along.

Have you tried one yet? They are great shooting bows.

Frank


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Nope. Haven't even ever seen a Buffalo in person, other than the ones where I work... 

I have a few ILF hunting risers that I'm completely happy with. My 15" TradTech black onyx is a wood/phenolic riser that gives me a 60" bow with long limbs. Perfect for tree stands or ground blinds, and I took a dandy 10 pt. with it this year. I used to have a metal ILF hunting handle, but after a few seasons with it I decided I'd rather have a wood riser for my hunting bow. That dang metal gets cold in a tree stand! ha, ha.

I've been off-and on with the 72" bow thing. I actually own the very first 27" target riser in the U.S. - a Bernardini Luxor that my friends the Frangilli's sent me for doing some prototype testing for them. Having probably one of the longest draw lengths in North America at 32.5", you'd think I'd shoot nothing but 72" bows, but I've found that at 70 meters, for whatever reason, I prefer 70" bows. 72"ers are nice indoors though. 

Sometimes a particular length bow just "works" for you better than another. Sounds like you've found your favorite combination too. We can measure and calculate and keep records all we want, but sometimes it just comes down to what a person is most comfortable using.

John


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## Aspirin Buster (Mar 25, 2004)

John
I will be doing some Texas gigs again this year, you'll have to come see the show.

Frank


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## Harperman (Sep 3, 2006)

Matt Z said:


> Straight from the man himself...


Matt......Thanks for posting this......Harperman


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## Aspirin Buster (Mar 25, 2004)

Here's the one we made when the Formula was launched at the 2010 ATA Show...

http://www.bowtube.com/media/778/AspirinBuster_At_Hoyt/


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Frank, with all due respect to you and to Doug, subjective terms like faster, smoother, etc. don't really offer much in the way of comparison to bows built by any other company. I'm glad that Doug has developed a bow that's that much better than the original Formula, but it doesn't tell us how much better it is than the W&W Inno, the Samick, the PSE, etc. 

Real numbers are always hard to come by because we all know they can be interpreted differently by different folks, or for different purposes. But there are some standards that could be used. 

It's real easy for you (or me) to say "try one and see for yourself" because for the most part, we don't have to purchase the equipment we use. However (and I've been there) the average guy or gal has zero chance of actually trying something new before dropping some serious coin on it. 

It would sure be nice to see some real data. But then, I've been wishing for that only about 7 years now...

John


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## Warbow (Apr 18, 2006)

Great thread. Props to Frank and Limbwalker. You are both experienced, expert in your respective fields of archery and you are both very well spoken and persuasive. I felt like a ping pong ball as I read your exchanges, finding things to agree with in every post, though I'm rather more in line with Limbwalker's down to earth, just the objectively quantifiable empirical facts without the limiting and distorting interference of sponsorships, position. 

Even though Frank is clearly hyping his sponsor, I'm pretty sure few people would turn down a free Formula rig. Hype aside, pretty much everyone agrees the Formula bows are terrific bows. And I'm pretty sure that Limbwalker is right that other makers make bows that can shoot just as well as the Formula bows, and, who knows, maybe better. All I know is that pretty much every bow shoots better than I do. 

Anway, thank's for a fun read.


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## Aspirin Buster (Mar 25, 2004)

John
I feel pretty confident when I recomend Hoyt bows to the public that they will be getting value for their money.. The best money can buy in my opinion. This is my 22nd year with Hoyt and I love these Formula bows. The way they are sweeping tournaments tells me the top shooters in competitive archery must like them too. 

These bows are smooth, shoot fast, and perform. Try one and let me know what you think. 

I will be setting the HPX riser up this week... More on this bow after I do.

Frank


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Frank, I think it's great that you feel good about recommending a good product. You should. And there is no doubt it's a good product. However, how informed and unbiased is your opinion, really? Because to a lot of folks who are debating about where to spend their hard earned cash, that's the bottom line. You keep asking me and others if they've shot the bows you're shooting. I would ask you how many other bows you've shot, because it's relevant to the conversation. 



> The way they are sweeping tournaments tells me the top shooters in competitive archery must like them too.


This has been beaten to death here and elsewhere. Top shooters shoot what they are paid to shoot. Period. Some of them have a little bit of leeway, but most of them are under contracts that are pretty limiting, and they wouldn't dare stepping outside their brand at risk of being tossed aside. Any of the top shooters could win with a multitude of bows. That's undeniable fact, because it's happened over and over. 

You shoot the bows you shoot because you're under contract. Nobody holds that against you, but most folks with a smidgen of awareness realize the position from which you promote your equipment.

I find it pretty interesting that a whole stable of archers under contract with one particular manufacturer come to the AT fita forum over and over to promote their gear. As I said already, it's become pretty predictable at this point.

All I'm saying is that the fita forum is a pretty intelligent bunch. Some real numbers and objective data would only help you make your point. The tolerance for hyperbole is rather thin here.

John


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## Jake Kaminski (Mar 10, 2007)

Hey John. You say that you shot the best equipment you can get yore hands on. Well Hoyt wouldn't give you a RX or now HPX you obviously see it dominating everywhere why don't your purchase one and give it a fair chance just like you have with other bows. Or are you more swayed in you're opinions you lead on to be? Also the hp is flat out faster period. I have said this before. Loo it up as to why.


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## harvyedavies (Feb 4, 2012)

Jake Kaminski said:


> Hey John. You say that you shot the best equipment you can get yore hands on. Well Hoyt wouldn't give you a RX or now HPX you obviously see it dominating everywhere why don't your purchase one and give it a fair chance just like you have with other bows. Or are you more swayed in you're opinions you lead on to be? Also the hp is flat out faster period. I have said this before. Loo it up as to why.


Hello Jake and Frank,
Ive been shooting an RX for the last two seasons and after an initial struggle to get the right brace height Frank's review pointed me in the right direction and I settled for a BH higher than I had been expecting - thank you for that review Frank. I've just treated myself to an HPX - same spec as the RX but am really struggling to get it to tune - ive tested BHs from the recommended right up to 9" and am settling at about 8 3/4 which is outside Hoyts range of 8 to 8 1/2 the lower BH gives me real clearance issues with heavy contact between rear arrow node and riser - sufficient to crack knocks. I had thought this was my release but switching back to the RX suggests my release is not the problem - I've also dropped two arrow spines which seems to have solved the contact issues. Both bows measured on the fingers are showing identical draw weights so I'm a bit puzzled!!


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## Matt Z (Jul 22, 2003)

harvyedavies said:


> I've also dropped two arrow spines which seems to have solved the contact issues. Both bows measured on the fingers are showing identical draw weights so I'm a bit puzzled!!


This is precisely what scares my on buying new equipment. I don't have the money to buy hundreds of dollars worth of different sized arrows. Wondering if there is a poundage/spine conversion chart out there somewhere? Meaning if I currently shoot 42# standard carbon/foam ILF limbs, should I purchase 38# Formula limbs to equal the dynamic energy of the limb.

Jake (or anyone for that matter), any thought on that?


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## Aspirin Buster (Mar 25, 2004)

John-
I have only been with two companies in 27 years of shooting professionally. My experience with Hoyt is 22 years and during those years at no time has anyone told me where to post, what to say, etc. Sure a part of my role is to promote and put the product in a good light, but we have not been told what to say or where to say it. I think that's a misconception. Archery, like any sport, has endorsement deals and pro staffs. However, I know that I have turned down endorsement deals from other bow companies, some for even higher dollar amounts. It's not always about the money. To me Hoyt feels like Home. I started there in 1986, and I have always been able to get questions for consumers answered quickly, get what I need when I need it, and have a variety of folks willing to help with any request that pops up. It may be something simple or perhaps a consumer needs a question answered. Hoyt takes care of it. Knowing you have people like Douglas to use as a resource means a great deal as well. 

Warbow-
Thank you for your input, much appreciated. I took your advice a few years ago and added the "Hoyt Pro Staff" to my signature so that people knew I was ons staff. Hope you are doing well my friend.

Jake-
Last time I corresponded with you I think it was asking about your thoughts on F3 vs. F4 limbs. How do you like the new F7 limbs? By the way, between the F3 and F4, I preferred the F4. I have used carbon/foam limbs so long I am spoiled. Good luck on your shooting....

Matt Z
If you will send me anote via email, I will forward it to the right people at Hoyt and get an answer for you. How's that? Send it to [email protected]. 


Harvey-
I will be seeing up my new HPX riser this week. If memory serves me right, Doug told me the BH was about 1/2 to 3/4 less on the new riser. Will advise once I tune it. I will have the new HPX in Indy for the Indiana Deer, Turkey and Waterfowl Expo. Once I tune mine I'll post the BH. Jake can probably already tell you his...

Frank


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Frank, I can understand the feeling of "coming home" to a familiar company where they treat you right. It's a good feeling, and lets you worry about your shooting and nothing else, which is how it should be. No doubt their customer service is great. That's a major consideration when a pro is looking for a brand to use. Other professional archers have told me the same, and I completely understand.

Recently, I had one professional archer who responded to my question "why did you switch to that brand?" with the answer - "hey, I have a family to take care of..." And they know who they are  So there are a lot of things at play here besides pure performance characteristics, and every archer has to consider the whole arena when they spend their money or lend their name to a particular manufacturer. I've said 100 times that I'm very fortunate not to be in a position where I have to make equipment decisions based on whether or not I can pay the rent.

Jake, the answer to your question is pretty simple. I can't afford to just go out and purchase one. Nothing more than that. That's why I asked if they would send me one to evaluate. I was honestly interested in using one because it's easy to see how successful archers like yourself have been with that bow. In fact, it was your performance at the Vegas shoot and Indoor Nationals that caused me to decide to ask! 

Other companies have sent me bows to test and I consider it a real blessing to have that option available to me. I did have a retailer offer to send me a bow, but it would have come out of their inventory, so I didn't accept that generous offer. Eventually, I'll get an opportunity to put one through it's paces. My brother is shooting a Formula now and is pretty happy with it, so I plan to run it through some tests soon. I have no doubt they are good bows. I do have doubts whether they are any better than the best bows from other manufacturers, however. Only real data will persuade me. But that's just me.

Jake, one thing you have to understand about me is that I have a science background and I don't make decisions without data. Sure, I could, but it's not something I'm comfortable doing. So I get my hands on every bow I can and put it through the same evaluation process, so that when I take a bow into competition, there is no doubt that I'm shooting the best gear that I can get. If I show up somewhere with a particular riser/limb combination, it's because I've tested it thoroughly against everything else I have and it earned a spot at that event. I will admit loyalties to the SKY brand because of what Ann and Earl meant to me and so many others, and because Ann personally helped me get SKY limbs that I eventually used to make the Olympic team. I'd like to see that brand continue on as part of their legacy, and I've offered my time and support to Jim to make sure I've done all I could to see that that happens. I'm also partial to the PSE brand simply because that was my first "real" bow (back in 1979) and because of the work they do supporting our ladies. I think there are some great folks behind their recurve line, and their engineering is top notch. David and Pete really think outside the box, and have been since long before it was fashionable. They also have the horsepower and brain power to back up their ideas. I like that.

But at the end of the day I'm going to shoot the best bow, for me, that I can get my hands on regardless of what brand it is, because, well, I can.

I'm sure you noticed that my two bows at the trials were made up from handles and limbs from four different companies. I was shooting Hoyt, SKY, Samick and Bernardini at that event. Why? Because that's what I had available to use, and those are the combinations that were working the best for me. I was pleased that my final 36 arrows at the end of a rather gruelling first day of shooting was a personal best 70M score for me with my Hoyt Axis and Samick Masters limbs. So at least for now, that's the combination that anything else will have to beat.

And there's only one way to know for sure if anything else will beat it. You gotta try everything you can!

I wish you luck this year Jake, not that you need it. And I look forward to shooting with you again in April.

Frank, watch for me. I'm going to take in one of your shows in Texas this year!

John


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## Jake Kaminski (Mar 10, 2007)

Yes. So basically we moved the plunger hole back in space thus shortening the BH so this changes the arrows normal cycle time to get Max clearance and keep a tune. In order to keep the proper cycle and tune going from a normal geometry bow to the hpx you can expect to shoot at least 2#s heavier to get the same arrow to tune. This results in the actual speed gain. Or you can go down an arrow spine keep the same weight and also gain speed. No longer do you have "faster" limbs that push the arrow harder resulting in a lower poundage to tune whic ultimately results in the same arrow speed.


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## Aspirin Buster (Mar 25, 2004)

Jake, you impressed me. Pretty sharp young man, and I also hear you are a fine shot too. Young people like you are good for the sport and good for archery. I don't get to do many events where our paths would cross but I do look forward to shaking your hand one day. I'll watch you guys do your thing with bullseyes and then you can see my show.

I did do the New York FITA World Championship in 2003, that was fun. I did the media while the competitors competed. 

Thanks for all you do for archery and for Hoyt.

Frank


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

> This results in the actual speed gain. Or you can go down an arrow spine keep the same weight and also gain speed. No longer do you have "faster" limbs that push the arrow harder resulting in a lower poundage to tune whic ultimately results in the same arrow speed.


Glad to hear Hoyt has caught up. I can think of two other companies who's gear has provided this feature for a couple years now. Gone are the days when a limb demands a stiffer spine to go along with higher performance, cancelling out any benefits you might see. 

This is why you need to test everything you can. Because some manufacturers are just now catching up with technology that's been available in the market for a couple years now. 

Bottom line is equipment across the board just keeps getting better, and we all benefit from that.

John


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## 2413gary (Apr 10, 2008)

If the new limbs are faster why not shoot a heavier shaft and create more down range energy at the same weight. or is the lighter weight a better benefit. Going to get a new formula for barebow and need help


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

2413,

Some limbs, and from the sounds of it - the newest Hoyt limbs - have a draw force curve that is easier on the arrow and still retains the same velocity, allowing you to have your choice of 1) shooting a heavier point for a given spine, or 2) reducing the spine and thereby the overall arrow weight. What you're suggesting is a viable option for those that don't have to worry about reaching a distance, or for those that just prefer a heavier arrow. Some folks want the lightest, fastest arrow they can get. A lot of research has been done to determine what the more successful approach is in the wind, although none that I've seen is definitive since there are so many variables involved to consider for each archer. I know Rick McKinney has long been an advocate for shooting the lightest arrow possible at the greatest speed (hence his industry-leading ultra lightweight McKinney II shafts). Others, like the Frangilli's of Italy, have advocated for the maximum FOC, while others prefer reasonable FOC but a heavier overall arrow to retain the maximum amount of downrange "energy." 

Not sure there is one best answer. All three approaches have won at different times.

John


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## Jake Kaminski (Mar 10, 2007)

John you're missing the key here. It is not the limbs that yield this higher speed. It's the geometry change. The limbs are going to gain you ~1 fps and the riser 4-9 fps.


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## Aspirin Buster (Mar 25, 2004)

Jake
Doug told me about changing the riser slightly, how do you like yours? I shoot 45# and will be setting mine up this week. I already tried the F7 limbs..amazing.

Good luck.. 

Frank


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## Harperman (Sep 3, 2006)

Jake Kaminski said:


> John you're missing the key here. It is not the limbs that yield this higher speed. It's the geometry change. The limbs are going to gain you ~1 fps and the riser 4-9 fps.


Jake.....So basically the riser has a bit over .700 LESS deflex than the regular Formula X, right??...1" of brace height normally will gain or lose approx. 10 f.p.s...So this makes sense....I know that to my eyes, the new Formula is a seriously good looking riser.....Take care............Harperman


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Jake, I get that. Less deflex, lower brace ht., more power stroke. But ultimately, the limbs are what decide the performance. The riser just holds them in place. Put a different set of limbs with a different draw force curve on that same riser, and you'll get a completely different result. You also may as well be shooting different limbs or risers when the limb bolts are turned fully out or fully in. 

So many variables, so little time. 

You don't have to convince me that it's a good bow. It's pretty obvious what it's capable of doing in the right hands. 

Where my bs flag starts to go up however, is when I see any company's pro staff crowing about their product without tangible data, and data that's compared to the best products of other companies. 

Look, I'll believe that any one particular bow is overwhelmingly better when the WAF starts making rules because of it. Kinda like the stock car races where everyone plays by the exact same rules. 

If any one bow ever gets to the point that it's technology is so advanced that no other bow can really compete with it, then I suspect there may be some investigation into those properties and some rule changes because of it.

Look at what's happened in other sports. Look at swimming and the controversy about the suits. Look at golf and the limits on COR for drivers. 

Those are clear indications that an athlete can gain an unfair advantage through technology. 

So far, we just ain't there yet in archery. It will be interesting whenver we get there though. I would love to see how the WAF handles it. 

I mean, if this new bow is so good (and I'm not saying it isn't because I honestly have no way to know at this point) then eventually 90+% of all the world class archers will be shooting it, and then something may have to be done about that. Or, perhaps we will have "stock bow" competitions and everyone will have to shoot the same kind of bow so that it once again becomes a competition between athletes and not equipment manufacturers... 

Jake and Frank, I'm honestly not trying to pick on either of you but since both of you have said "try one" multiple times, let me ask you a simple yes or no question...

Did either of you have to pay for the first Formula bow you "tried"? 

Because myself and 99% of those participating here would have to cough up some serious cash to take your advice and just "try" one.  

John


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## OldSchoolNEO (May 11, 2009)

limbwalker said:


> Jake, I get that. Less deflex, lower brace ht., more power stroke. But ultimately, the limbs are what decide the performance. The riser just holds them in place. Put a different set of limbs with a different draw force curve on that same riser, and you'll get a completely different result. You also may as well be shooting different limbs or risers when the limb bolts are turned fully out or fully in.
> 
> So many variables, so little time.
> 
> ...


That's a great post John!


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## Hunter Dave (Jul 17, 2007)

Yes, very well said, John. 

I've also been watching Blacky's Bow Reports hoping he would have some test data. I like his evaluation format. Now, if someone would just get a new Hoyt in his hands...


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Yea, Blacky has done some very good work in the past. As has Norb Mullaney.

Nice to see real, objective, scientific data to help those who need it make a decision.

It's funny how we're all wired a little bit differently. Some folks want the data, others just want a bow that sounds and feels great and don't worry too much about the numbers. Others choose a bow based on past experiences or loyalties or status or various other reasons. Probably as many reasons to choose a piece of equipment as there are archers to use them.

John


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## dkard (Sep 25, 2004)

I like numbers, but they are not the be all when it comes to a bow. Even this new Hoyt is probably within spitting distance of speed of any number of bows that have been out for a while. Looks matter, history plays a part. I have 2 Sky Conquests because of the Sky-Earl Hoyt Legacy. How it feels in the hand is much more important than the "speed". I do think these FX risers look cool, but I am not sure they are that much better than my Sky's or GM's or...
Besides I would have to get all new limbs to use it.

dave


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## Borderbows (Apr 4, 2009)

Jake Kaminski said:


> Yes. So basically we moved the plunger hole back in space thus shortening the BH so this changes the arrows normal cycle time to get Max clearance and keep a tune. In order to keep the proper cycle and tune going from a normal geometry bow to the hpx you can expect to shoot at least 2#s heavier to get the same arrow to tune. This results in the actual speed gain. Or you can go down an arrow spine keep the same weight and also gain speed. No longer do you have "faster" limbs that push the arrow harder resulting in a lower poundage to tune whic ultimately results in the same arrow speed.


i would like to work this one out a little.
changing the BH, changes the centreshot. and like any bow of old, changing centreshot changes the arrow spine. so if you drop the BH, you can pull the button in to get the same amount "point over centre". if you see what i mean. in effect running closer to centre. making the arrow act weak? but if you keep the same button position then the arrow will be futher over centre. making it act stiff even if the bows performance remains constant.


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## Borderbows (Apr 4, 2009)

so the W&W manual says 2fps can be gained by 1/2" drop in brace. and dropping in arrow spine = less in the arrow = more speed, but that doesnt equal a faster bow. that just equals a lower GPP?


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## Jake Kaminski (Mar 10, 2007)

John you're still missin the point yet again. I shot the hpx an f4 limbs 7 fps faster then my
Rx. Also you say Hoyt has caught up. Well hate to point it put again but both bradys and my bow were9-13 kph after at the Olympic test event compared to other rx's and even more then the closest w&w. My bow was 219 Brady's was 217 te closest rx was Oh at 211 most were 207-209 and the w&w was 202-206


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## Aspirin Buster (Mar 25, 2004)

Good luck in Vegas Jake, I will be setting up my HPX this week...


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## Jim C (Oct 15, 2002)

Jake's in the finals after upsetting Brady in the Semis. he's up against the 04 Gold medalist I believe. Good Luck Jake, win the US a championship. And good luck in the team-you guys should rock!


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## Aspirin Buster (Mar 25, 2004)

Thanks for the update Jim C!


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Jake, congrat's on shooting well!

As for the numbers, they are fine so long as you can relate them to draw weight and grains/lb. of arrow weight. So the pure numbers alone really tell me little about actual bow performance unless, by some chance, all of you were shooting the exact same draw weight at the exact same brace ht. with the exact same weight strings and the exact same weight arrows, etc., etc. 

Heck, I shot one of my indoor arrows over the chrono the other day at 232 fps., shooting 49#. Speed is easy, but it's only one measure of performance.

It's easy to run straight to fps as an indication of "performance" but without knowing all the variables, you're not telling the whole story. It's like saying the fastest car on the track has the best engine, when all the cars are different weights and different drivers. It's not that simple.

Can you at least tell us what draw weight you and Brady and Oh were shooting? Then perhaps arrow weight too? That would be useful information for the sake of this discussion. 

And I thought it was a fairly simple question that I asked you and Frank...



> Did either of you have to pay for the first Formula bow you "tried"?


The only reason I asked it is because about 95% of the participants in these threads are in the same boat. There simply is no place we can go and "try" a new RX or HPX, so telling us to go "try" one or asking if we have tried one yet isn't very practical advice.

John


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Borderbows said:


> i would like to work this one out a little.
> changing the BH, changes the centreshot. and like any bow of old, changing centreshot changes the arrow spine. so if you drop the BH, you can pull the button in to get the same amount "point over centre". if you see what i mean. in effect running closer to centre. making the arrow act weak? but if you keep the same button position then the arrow will be futher over centre. making it act stiff even if the bows performance remains constant.


Sid, I'd love to see this in practice. Not saying it isn't possible, but it's so counter-intuitive, that I'd just have to see it for myself. Because you're right. The principles of dynamic spine you describe don't account for this claim.


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## Aspirin Buster (Mar 25, 2004)

John
My father has been in retail archery most of my life. He's always let folks try compound bows before they buy them. Some people do have recurve archery dealers that may let them try the bows, others may have a friend with one that will let them try one. You mention 95% of the people.... I doubt any major bow company would allow shooters to "test drive" so to speak their bows. I understand you have managed to have some send you stuff to try, but sticking to the 95% you speak of, those people just have to rely on what they read, what they see, and then make a decision to order one or not. Right?!? 
My role as I see it is to post my honest thoughts about the bows I use. In 27 years of exhibitions, the Formula is a fantastic shooting bow and one of my very favorites. I love it. I can't wait to get the HPX set up.

I will post results here once I do.

Take care John... and thanks for your contributions to archery. 

Frank


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## grantmac (May 31, 2007)

Aspirin Buster said:


> John
> My father has been in retail archery most of my life. He's always let folks try compound bows before they buy them. Some people do have recurve archery dealers that may let them try the bows, others may have a friend with one that will let them try one. You mention 95% of the people.... I doubt any major bow company would allow shooters to "test drive" so to speak their bows. I understand you have managed to have some send you stuff to try, but sticking to the 95% you speak of, those people just have to rely on what they read, what they see, and then make a decision to order one or not. Right?!?
> My role as I see it is to post my honest thoughts about the bows I use. In 27 years of exhibitions, the Formula is a fantastic shooting bow and one of my very favorites. I love it. I can't wait to get the HPX set up.
> 
> ...


Frank:
Border Archery will build you a completely custom set of limbs (or bow), down to the graphics and if you aren't totally satisfied with them they can returned within 30 days for the cost of postage. Surely a big company like Hoyt could provide similar service?
If I'm going to plunk down $1400 on a bow I want some solid numbers. "more" "better" "faster than" "smoother" is just marketing, I'd like to see them walk the walk.

-Grant


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## Borderbows (Apr 4, 2009)

limbwalker said:


> Sid, I'd love to see this in practice. Not saying it isn't possible, but it's so counter-intuitive, that I'd just have to see it for myself. Because you're right. The principles of dynamic spine you describe don't account for this claim.


you can get english longbows without a window to shoot straight up the middle. and this is where the term archers paradox comes from. You need a weaker arrow so that the arrow can bend round the bow as the pile is soo far out of alignement.
now. if you have half the pile of your arrow sitting over centre, at say 9.75" of brace height, drop the brace height (of have a riser with less deflex) and bring the botton closer to the string in any way you like and watch your arrow appear more over centre. even though the button doesnt sit any further out. its just the angles that the distance from Button to string produces.

id say that if you can get an english longbow to shoot round a 1/2" thick or more bow, with the right spine, then its all about spine and centreshot. to find the right tune.

The scale of the side ways movement is dependent on arrow spine, power stroke, limb stiffness, string length. so the amount the pile sits over centre is dependent on spine is all other variables remain constant. (target archers adjust bow weight, point weight, and clicker at times to get an arrow to tune, but how did people tune bows before adjustable weights and clickers)

in short/blunt explanation, its possible to catch (within limits) a weak arrow's extra swing by moving the point out a little. or a stiffer arrow by moving it in a little. since the ossilation has a different amplitute. so will need a different release angle, based on the centreshot adjustment.

in a rough explanation.

(how would you tune a bow to bareshaft if shooting off the shelf? no clearance space, and no flexability)


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## leongarrett (Mar 15, 2006)

BlackWidow,Alaska Bowhunting supply and a few others will let you test drive a bow before you drive. One will pay the shipping cost.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Frank, you never answered my question. Neither did Jake.

I'm not asking to be disrespectful, but rather to illustrate the fact that folks like you and Jake, and sometimes even me, are in a position to try equipment at no cost, or just for the cost of shipping. Most (where my 95% came from) can't do that. Trying to find an archery retailer that actually has bows in stock that they will let you test is almost impossible in this country. It's one thing to test a compound, but another thing entirely to test a target recurve. Most retailers won't allow you to do that because they don't want the limbs and risers marked up when they get shot. 

So yes, most folks do depend on the best information they can get their hands on. Myself and others I know actually want real data. That's not that hard to provide. For less than $200 worth of equipment, I can give you draw force curves and arrow speed from any given bow. You, Jake and anyone else could easily do the same. Those figures make up a significant part of the decision process for a LOT of archers. Your impressions of the feel, shootability, customer service, etc. make up the rest. I'm not discounting that information at all, and you and Jake provide a valuable service when you offer your impressions and knowlege of the equipment you use. Some of us would simply like to see real data to back up a few of the impressive claims, that's all. After all, it's our money we're talking about here.

I for one would love to hear how this new HPX bow seemingly defies the laws of physics by shooting a weaker spined arrow faster than other bows, while offering MORE clearance at a lower brace ht. That doesn't add up at all, from what we know about archer's paradox and the principles of applying an off-center load to a column. 

For the record, I never said it's not possible. I'd just love to see how it happens for the sake of learning more about this equipment.

My wife teaches Physics, and it was one of my favorite subjects in college. I love learning about this stuff, so more information on the unique properties being claimed here would be welcome.

John


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## Aspirin Buster (Mar 25, 2004)

John
This is a conversation you should probably have with one of the recurve engineers. I know a good shooting bow when I feel and shoot one, but if you want raw data you need another source. I am a shooter, I get on stage and do 45 minutes of archery to try and promote the sport and get folks excited about archery. With his tournament schedule I doubt Jake has time either. You should maybe write an email with your specific questions and then email it to Hoyt.

What is or isnt done for me or any other staff shooter really is between the company and the shooter, you know this. I don't discuss those details with anyone but my sponsors. There's alot of misconceptions out there about staff positions. The point I originally made with this thread is that I am in the process of setting up an HPX and would post results soon.

I have found the Formula bows very accurate. I am very impressed with the F7 limbs. More on the HPX once I have it set up.


If you want raw data, you could email Doug and inquire. Or email me and I can forward it. I am not dodging your question about sponsorship, I just don't discuss that. I was trying to be polite and move on. You are persistent, probably why you are a good archer... And golfer, right? 

Frank


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Ha, ha. yea, maybe so. 

Frank, this is an open forum. Anyone can chime in here, within reason. You gotta understand that whenever a sponsored, professional shooter starts a thread to promote their company's latest bow, it's seen as mere marketing unless there is real, meaningful data involved. You're doing what everyone expects you to do for your company, because you make a living by using their products. Just don't be surprised that some folks eyes glaze over when a sponsored shooters posts yet another list of glowing subjective terms to describe the latest and greatest "thing." We saw this last year with the stabilizer that seemingly nobody could live without, and now it appears that that product has already been replaced by something better. 

It does make a person a bit skeptical over time when they see the best archers in the world constantly changing equipment.

You're going to shoot the new bow because that's what your sponsor wants you to shoot, so you can do your job as a marketing tool (because frankly, for them, that's what you are), not because your last bow wasn't up to the task. 

Sorry if that sounds blunt, but let's just call it what it is. It's not any kind of statement about your personal character, but rather about the marketing strategies of certain companies, and the tools they use to carry them out.

As for the engineering data, I do plan to have a conversation with Doug the next time I get the chance. However, because I am rather suspect of the marketing of certain companies, I expect to receive a less than warm reception from thier staff. Hopefully that's not the case, because there is some real, valuable data out there that a lot of folks need to understand better, if in fact the physics behind pushing an arrow have been changed.

John


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Frank, allow me to add this:

I appreciate you not taking my questions personally. Some have chosen to do that and have felt as if I was attacking them personally. That's not what I'm trying to do. Years ago, a certain company introduced a new limbs with lots of fanfare and claims of superior performance. I happened to be in the market for new limbs at the same time, and I asked a very well known representative from that company who used to post here for some data to support their claims. Pretty quickly, I was being rebuffed and put down just for asking the questions, and no real data ever materialized. All I and others who were interested ever got was 'trust me'. Well, that's not good enough when you're talking about spending $400 on one pair of limbs. At least, not for me.

I try to seperate the equipment from the person. I may be critical of a piece of equipment or a particular marketing claim that stretches the truth, but that doesn't mean the person carrying the gear or making the claim is a bad person. It's easy for me to seperate the two. I guess for others, it's not so easy.

I'd be honored to share the line with you or anyone else shooting these new bows, or whatever equipment they want for that matter, because at the end of the day we're all archers. I simply pursue the truth, and want valid reasons for why something is better than something else. It's really not more complex than that, and I have no hidden agenda despite what some may choose to believe.

So again, thanks for answering the questions you can answer. I do appreciate it.

John


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## Aspirin Buster (Mar 25, 2004)

John
I think there's a lot of archers like me that want to shoot the best equipment that they can get. In my opinion, that's Hoyt. When you look at their history, the amount of tournaments won, the product innovation, and the best customer service and engineering, it all comes together. I am very proud to have been affiliated with Hoyt 22 years.

I used to marvel at how intelligent Earl Hoyt was. My father and Earl often walked the show isles at trade shows going from booth to booth critiquing that years new bows. It was amazing... They both impressed me. Earl was a gentle giant and knew archery. I see this in Doug Denton, such a brilliant yet humble young man. I am excited for the future with recurves because of this young man! Mark my words, he is brilliant!

Now, when you get an opportunity, try one. See what the fuss is about! These bows are amazing.

Frank


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

> I see this in Doug Denton, such a brilliant yet humble young man. I am excited for the future with recurves because of this young man! Mark my words, he is brilliant!


I agree. Every time I've met Doug, he's struck me as a genuine good guy. My former next-door neighbor (Don Wasilewski) helped design their carbon compound bow - he's another really nice guy. I'm glad to see both of them getting an opportunity to design new gear here in the U.S. I know Don felt he'd landed his dream job when he got the call to work for Hoyt, and I was happy for him.

Tell you what Frank, testing bows and archery gear has become somewhat of a hobby for me. You send me your old Formula RX to test, and I'll post some draw force curves and speed numbers for everyone to see. It would only take me a few days. If they want to know about feel or forgiveness or shootability, then you can fill in the rest.

Deal?


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## Aspirin Buster (Mar 25, 2004)

John
I have to keep my bows in transit this time of year, they literally are shipped somewhere almost weekly back and forth to shows. I try and keep them on the road so that I don't hve to fly with my show gear. I UPS it it ahead of me so that when I land at an event, my net, gear and bows are by the stage waiting on me. It is alot like a rock and roll tour.. you go venue to venue and show up do your gig and then move on. So it isn't a good time of year for me, and I like to have my back up bows with me.

There would have to be one in Texas somewhere you could try....

I am coming to Texas to do shows in May. Have a good weekend


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

I'll try to look you up in May. I should have a little more time then too.

I think a lot of people would be interested to see some real world numbers in comparison to other top bows. If any particular bow really has superior performance, then the numbers will tell the story. Things like feel and shootability will always be subjective and hard to measure, but we can and should measure the things we can measure to support our claims.

John


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## Borderbows (Apr 4, 2009)

limbwalker said:


> I'll try to look you up in May. I should have a little more time then too.
> 
> I think a lot of people would be interested to see some real world numbers in comparison to other top bows. If any particular bow really has superior performance, then the numbers will tell the story. Things like feel and shootability will always be subjective and hard to measure, but we can and should measure the things we can measure to support our claims.
> 
> John


I think you can shout this all day John.

We have posted threads about testing bows at home, and we have introduced testing methods to people, whom have gone about testing thier own bows.

A user on here, Tradtalk, and Archery-Interchange has done some extensive testing of our gear, he has bought a decibel meter, chrono, made his own Draw board, because i think hes wanting to know more too.

There are dozens of archers that have bought bows based on this data alone. Simply because someone posted it.

When someone claims of a "let off" feeling, you know they have tried a smooth bow. I cant see a difference in some of these new limbs from some older classics. Limb butt and limb tip mass = total mass of limb remains the same, showing the same mass distribution too, and the DFC remains the same. so i agree... 5 generations of limbs have come out since, and still show close to idencital measurements.
I would also seriously question subjective terms. without real numbers, replicable by users, the reviews are meaningless.



anyhow, round and round this goes. and nothing to allow people to compair bows.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

http://www.youtube.co/watch?v=9zdEXeycY5I&feature=related

For the life of me, I can't see how a lower brace ht. will help clearance. If anything, it just makes it more difficult. This isn't the best video, but at 12 seconds or so, you can see the arrow leave the string with very little room for error if it's going to clear the rest and plunger. Not sure what brace ht. that bow was being shot at, but I can tell that if you REDUCE the brace ht., it's only going to make it harder to clear the rest and plunger.

Everyone knows that a lower brace gives you more speed. That's a no-brainer. But there is a good reason bows have been shot upwards of 8.5-9" brace for many years. I shot mine at 9 3/8" for years with no clearance issues, even from parallel shafts. It was only when I went below 9" that I began to have clearance issues.

So, rather than accuse me of trying to "bash" a product (which I can assure you is not my intent), myself and most others would appreciate some simple explanation, I think. Anyone?


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## Borderbows (Apr 4, 2009)

http://www.archery-interchange.net/f127/our-brace-height-ranges-115248/

G1225B is shooting a 1250 in practice.
Timid Toad is also a 1230 incompetition lady, who shoots a 68" bow


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## Matt Z (Jul 22, 2003)

Borderbows said:


> I would also seriously question subjective terms. without real numbers, replicable by users, the reviews are meaningless.


Although technical aspects of performance are obviously important, I would not discard subjective terms or more-like adjectives of reviews as a typical consumer. I personally would like a bow that is smooth and comfortable to shoot all day rather than a bow that is more aggressive in performance. I'm still considering the RX over the HPX at this point simply for comfort.

When Brady used the HPX at the London test event, I was taken back by the few times I saw him tightening things on the bow, something I've NEVER seen top competitors do in large events. That will sit in my brain far more than any marketing data....


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## Borderbows (Apr 4, 2009)

Matt Z said:


> Although technical aspects of performance are obviously important, I would not discard subjective terms or more-like adjectives of reviews as a typical consumer. I personally would like a bow that is smooth and comfortable to shoot all day rather than a bow that is more aggressive in performance. I'm still considering the RX over the HPX at this point simply for comfort.
> 
> When Brady used the HPX at the London test event, I was taken back by the few times I saw him tightening things on the bow, something I've NEVER seen top competitors do in large events. That will sit in my brain far more than any marketing data....


Fast doesnt have to be aggressive. For example limb mass limbs will be like a feather skooting forward. While heavy ones will take a bit of stopping.
Bows with high preload will stop more abruptly, since string tension is higher. Bows with less string tension at brace hieght will have a softer stop. lower end of the BH scale will help reduce string tension.

As for HPX vs RX. if it were my choice, id choose the RX. Simply because of the extra deflex. I'm of the opinion that deflex is needed to help reduce the torque of the limbs from paradox from hitting and rotating the bow a little, but i suppose thats what longrods are for. Id also rather take a bow that gives me a advantage as much as i could understand, and use a little threadlock where needed. (just a little of the vibration control rather than something that will seize all the bolts tight)


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Matt, all good points. An archer does need to be shooting a bow they enjoy shooting, so long as it can get the job done.

I've also had bows that were just "accurate" bows for some strange reason, but not necessarily the fastest or smoothest shooters. My old red Axis and those Samick limbs are that way. Very accurate, but neither lightning fast nor quiet and smooth. I've been through probably 5 other Axis risers, but for whatever reason that particular one always out-shot the others and allowed me to do things in competition that no other handle ever did.

Same is true of my 27" Luxor (Bernardini) for indoors. Everyone knows that indoors is a whole different game, where speed matters little. I've not shot a bow for indoor competition that behaves as well as that Luxor, so that's what I usually use both for indoor fita and barebow.

Lots of variables one must consider. I'm fortunate in that my freakishly long draw length means I never have to worry about speed. So other factors come into play when I choose a bow. 

John


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## Jake Kaminski (Mar 10, 2007)

John you keep asking for someone to explains the "lower" braceheight well all I can say is go back and re-read all of my posts about the hpx and it will explain why because I have several times just for you because you repeatedly ask. Also the tighening that Brady and myself were doing was because we got the bows literally the Day prior to that shoot. With any new product there are machine piling residues on surfaces that are to be tight allowing them to loosen up easily and change with very few shots. 


My Claims of instantly gaining points were not a stretch of the truth or a gimmic on my part. Take it or leave it. 


I'm over AT 




Later


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Jake, first of all congratulations on a superb performance in Vegas. I know it's not the finish you wanted, but you have every right to be proud and you'll have many more opportunities in the future.

As for the bow, I read and re-read your posts. 



> thus shortening the BH so this changes the arrows normal cycle time to get Max clearance and keep a tune


I understand what you're trying to say but don't see how this is possible. Maybe I'm a "show me" kind of guy, but an arrow leaving the string closer to the riser is going to result in less clearance, not more. Lowering a brace ht. to create a stiffer dynamic reaction is something traditional archers have known about and been doing for decades, if not centuries. That's nothing new, but there is a reason we've always shot higher brace ht's with target bows - to get sufficient fletching and arm clearance.

So, lets just stick to the facts. I never said you or anyone else was making it up, so you need to realize that and not get so defensive. Only that I don't understand how it's possible that a lower brace ht. can offer better clearance. That seems impossible to achieve, which is why I need to see how it happens. 

If you or Doug would come up with a nice high-speed video like the ones that Beiter or W&W have done with their products, it would answer all these questions, I'm quite certain.

As for the tightening at the event, that wasn't my post. Having competed with bows literally just days after setting them up, I completely understand what that's all about, and it's really not a big deal. 

Jake, what's happening here is simply a dialogue. People are going to ask questions of any new product, and when claims about a product are made that are out of the ordinary, even more questions are going to be asked. If you're going to be a public spokesperson for this product, you should expect that and not take it personally. We're asking about a piece of metal, carbon, foam and fiberglass. It's just a thing. It's not about your credibility I can assure you. Nobody here is questioning that.

John


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## Jake Kaminski (Mar 10, 2007)

I didn't mean my posts in here. Don't you remember the other thread(s)


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Perhaps not. I'm old, remember... ha, ha. 

I'll go back and look at those and see if I can "get it." 

It's times like this that I really wish I had a good high speed camera. Trying to evaluate the effects of changing brace ht. and centershot on clearance is almost impossible otherwise.

John


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## Hank D Thoreau (Dec 9, 2008)

limbwalker said:


> http://www.youtube.co/watch?v=9zdEXeycY5I&feature=related
> 
> For the life of me, I can't see how a lower brace ht. will help clearance. If anything, it just makes it more difficult. This isn't the best video, but at 12 seconds or so, you can see the arrow leave the string with very little room for error if it's going to clear the rest and plunger. Not sure what brace ht. that bow was being shot at, but I can tell that if you REDUCE the brace ht., it's only going to make it harder to clear the rest and plunger.
> 
> ...


What I am finding is that you have to throw out conventional wisdom when looking at the Border HEX family of limbs. The extreme recurve significantly changes the draw force properties of the bow relative to convention limb shapes. I do not have a high speed camera so I cannot check clearance, but, it does not seem or feel, like a problem. I usually rely on quantative measures, but I will have to fall back on feel for this one. Perhaps the answer is that these limbs are designed to be shot at a low brace height. I am currently using 7 3/4 inches on a 70 inch bow and not experiencing any problems.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Hank, from everything I've read and seen, it sounds like the new Hoyt bow is behaving similarly to our Border gear. More speed achieved by imparting less initial force in the DFC, allowing an archer to shoot a slightly weaker (and lighter) arrow. 

Jake, this is the only reason I mentioned that Hoyt has "caught up." Because those of us who've had the opportunity to shoot a lot of different limbs, including Border limbs, have seen this before. 

Right now, I have limbs from 5 different companies in my workshop. All are or were their top of the line limbs. I have to adjust them all to different draw weights to achieve the same tune with the same arrow from the same bow. Each has it's unique draw force curve and imparts force on the arrow in a different way. 

I believe this is one reason why some folks have so much trouble trying to order the correct arrow spine. Because their limbs may be more or less demanding of an arrow than the average.

If the new Hoyt bow has achieved this property, then that's a significant gain for them and my hat's off to Doug and whoever else was involved for figuring it out.

Out of curiosity, which direction did you go? Lighter draw weight with weaker arrows, or more draw weight with the same arrows? Or, like Frank, more point weight to soften up the spine and increase your FOC?

John


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## DBrewer (Jul 17, 2010)

limbwalker said:


> I believe this is one reason why some folks have so much trouble trying to order the correct arrow spine. Because their limbs may be more or less demanding of an arrow than the average.John


Amen John. I’m in that camp! It’s tough enough as it is getting a properly tuned shaft without having the additional variables that come with the new geometry. I would be tempted (as I’m an equipment geek) to “try” an HPX, but I know that’d I’d struggle with shaft selection. Having said that though, I do love my Rx and will continue to shoot it. What I DO want to try though is the new limb bolts on the HPX, I hope Hoyt offers those retail…I wouldn’t mind putting them on my Rx.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Doug, you can make them yourself with a little bit of work. Fritz (Pencarrow) made up some for his bow. The idea of a floating limb bolt head is nothing new. Compounds have had this for decades now, as well as some of the older t/d recurves. It's a good idea. Not sure why we haven't had this on every competition handle already, considering what we're paying for a fancy piece of aluminum.

John


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## Aspirin Buster (Mar 25, 2004)

John
I went from 145 grains to 100 grain tips to stiffen my arrows, not lighten them. I use ACC 371. The Formula bows are so fun to shoot. Although I do not have raw data you ask for, I can tell you that after 40 years in archery and 27 years on stage, I can tell you in a few shots if a bow "has it" or doesn't have it. The new Hoyt's have it.

Those F7 limbs are awesome. This weekend in Indianapolis I'll have my HPX set up. More on this soon..

I am sure Doug and his staff could answer all your technical questions. Their job is designing it, my job is using the gear they design. And my hats off to them, well done Hoyt...


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Frank, you said that. I got it backwards. 

But since you've reminded me, it's actually contrary to what Jake was saying about the affect the new bow has on arrow spine. So I wonder what's actually happening. 

I assume you are shooting the same draw weight as before?


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## Aspirin Buster (Mar 25, 2004)

Proud of the Hoyt Team Jake!


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## Aspirin Buster (Mar 25, 2004)

That was with the formula RX. The Geometry is different for the HPX.. I may be back to 145 grains with it. Was Jake using the HPX?


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Hoyt has a team? You meant the U.S. team, right Frank? Or maybe the Hoyt/PSE team? Or was it the PSE/Mathews/SKY team?  ha, ha. Just teasing you, of course.

I believe Jake was referring to the HPX when he was explaining how the bow allowed you to shoot a weaker spine at the same draw weight, or the same spine at a higher draw weight, which would only make sense if that bow is shooting at a lower brace ht. than the RX. This is a common trait in all traditional bows - that a lower brace ht. allows you to "stiffen" the dynamic spine of a particuar arrow, while a higher brace ht. "weakens" it. Us 'ol longbow and traditional shooters have used this method to tune our bows for a long, long time. 

But as I've said already, there is a reason we don't just run the brace ht. right down to our wrist and call it good.

You may not be a tech. guy Frank, but you can offer the spec's for your setup and maybe we can learn a little from that at least. If you had been shooting 145 grain points with your previous bow (what were you shooting before the Formula RX?), then switched to 100 grain points for the RX, and may have to switch again with the HPX, we can conclude a few things provided you're staying at the same draw weight. Knowing the brace ht. you shot those bows at would help as well.

John.


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## Borderbows (Apr 4, 2009)

limbwalker said:


> Right now, I have limbs from 5 different companies in my workshop. All are or were their top of the line limbs. I have to adjust them all to different draw weights to achieve the same tune with the same arrow from the same bow. Each has it's unique draw force curve and imparts force on the arrow in a different way.
> John



No need to tease people... 5 sets of limbs... LOL

Though that said, smooth limbs hold their Draw weight during the power stroke. this makes them push harder.

For example. if a stacky limb climbs at 3lbs per inch in th last few inches to get to final draw weight. and a smooth limbs climbs at 1lbs per inch in the last few inches. then when in 1" of release. the smooth bow is still close to peak weight. meaning its still on full power. while the stackly limb is trusting at 3lbs less than full power.


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## Aspirin Buster (Mar 25, 2004)

John,
No, I meant Team Hoyt... As a pro staffer I was congratulating those that use Hoyt. Anyway, my previous bows were GMX bows. On the Formula RX I use a 9 1/4 BH at around 45#. I use the longest riser/limb combo I can get. Once I get the HPX set up I'll note my settings here. I believe Doug told me the BH would be about 1/2 less with the new HPX...

And yes I have played with BH a time or two myself. I do not care about the raw data but bow tuning has always played a role in keeping my gear in top shape. I have a habit of writing each bow's info on the bottom limb with a sharpie. I use an old fashioned term called "sweet spot" when I find where the bow shoots at it's peak performance. Each bow, although identical, can have a slightly different sweet spot. I lucked into it in Chicago when I snapped a set of F7 limbs on a Formula RX riser. What a great weekend of shows! Looking forward to this weekend in Indy!


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## harvyedavies (Feb 4, 2012)

Hello all, can I start by saying how much I appreciate all your contributions - I'm an enthusiastic archer, my goals are very much personal and I'm not in the same league as the contributors in this thread but I enjoy getting the best out my bow challenging as this can be! I am fortunate to shoot both the RX and HPX, I have tested the F3, F4 and Hex 6 limbs and I do find the debates on both the theoretical and practical application of technology and bow design interesting BUT at the end of the day it is how a bow shoots that is critical - for people designing bows and limbs clearly a detailed understanding of what makes a bow (limbs) behave and shoot is critical but for me these forums are about listening to other archers and their experiences about how kit actually behaves in the real world. I do get frustrated when discussions deteriorate into a Hoyt/Border battle of wills to me both manufacturers produce some fantastic kit each with its own idiosyncrasies good points and bad. My early endeavors to set up my HPX have been deeply frustrating - I had thought it would be a straightforward swap but the reality has been that in my case my RX set up arrows are too stiff and setting the BH in the recommended range resulted in so much contact that my beiter knocks are being broken by heavy rear end connection with the riser. Now having read Jake's contribution I have actually dropped two spines and raised the BH to 8 3/4" the bow is quiet and I have greatly improved sight marks over the RX - its early days but the results are promising. For me this is where these forums are invaluable - of course I'm not naive - companies will want to promote their gear and some people post to be mischievous but over the last few years I have received much more positive information than negative.


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## Aspirin Buster (Mar 25, 2004)

Harvey
I think I remember Doug mentioning the BH will be less on the new HPX... Have you tried the F7 limbs?? So smooth..
I am glad you like your Hoyt bows.


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## harvyedavies (Feb 4, 2012)

Hello Frank, yes I m shooting two near identical RX F4 HPX F7 set ups with the F7 being wood core. The RX I have set at a BH of 9 1/4 and the HPX 8 3/4 which is a work in progress. The RX tunes at a measured 43lbs with 550 x10 arrows with 120g points. The HPX I've dropped to 600 spine, still a little stiff but 100g points so may swap these to 120. My challenge is the RX set up runs out of puff a little past 80yds, I've tried to close the performance distance to get to 100 yds which the HPX should give me. We're in the deep freeze in the UK so testing longer distances is a challenge.


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## Aspirin Buster (Mar 25, 2004)

What is your opinion of wood limbs verses the Foam limbs? I prefer foam. Everyone has different preferences. I was just curious.


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## harvyedavies (Feb 4, 2012)

Personally I prefer the wood, in my opinion they are slightly smoother and can only describe them as having a nice spring feel as opposed to the carbon which have more of a snap - shooting F3 and F4 on my RX gives identical sight marks at 100 yds all the way back to 20 yds and the arrows tune identically so I don't think there is any performance difference. This is always the problem how do you describe to someone else what you feel?! I also suspect I have a subconscious leaning towards wood - I work in a different sport with Carbon Fibre and while it is a wonderful material Ive seen how unforgiving it can be - completely irrational I'm sure but wood has the edge for me.


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## harvyedavies (Feb 4, 2012)

Personally I prefer the wood, in my opinion they are slightly smoother and can only describe them as having a nice spring feel as opposed to the carbon which have more of a snap - shooting F3 and F4 on my RX gives identical sight marks at 100 yds all the way back to 20 yds and the arrows tune identically so I don't think there is any performance difference. This is always the problem how do you describe to someone else what you feel?! I also suspect I have a subconscious leaning towards wood - I work in a different sport with Carbon Fibre and while it is a wonderful material Ive seen how unforgiving it can be - completely irrational I'm sure but wood has the edge for me.


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## Aspirin Buster (Mar 25, 2004)

I wonder what the difference is in how the wood verses foam does in variable weather... How heat and humidity and even altitude changes effect them. I suppose Doug would have the scientific/mathematical solution for us. I have my theory, I have been loyal to foam a longtime. The F7 foam is the best limb I have ever used. Love it... So smooth..

I believe Jake may use wood too. At least a year or so ago he was... But that's what I like about Hoyt... They offer it either way and let the archer decide. 

I use a 91/4 BH on my Formula RX and plan to try my HPX at 8 3/4 to start with.

Frank


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

> At least a year or so ago he was... But that's what I like about Hoyt... They offer it either way and let the archer decide.


Frank, every major company does this - just so's you know 

Foam is in fashion, but "wood is good" 

Dangit! I just helped you keep this thread at the top again. Gotta stop doing that.

John


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## Aspirin Buster (Mar 25, 2004)

Thanks John!

Good luck with your shooting.


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## 2413gary (Apr 10, 2008)

I spent the weekend at Vegas shooting and talking to Doug Denton. I am sure I wore him out grilling him on the HPX and F7 limbs. What a great guy. I talked to a few guys that were shooting the HPX also everybody said speed first and formost comparing it to the RX. So if I can generate 5fps more at the same weight. And feel like 2 lbs. less wt. If it stiffens the arrow go to a little heavier point wt. from 100gr. to 110 or 120gr. Create more down range energy. I shoot Barebow nonsight if this does everything they say it will this bow will tighten my short range gaps plus make 90 meters easier to hit. I think they sold me. What do you guys think?


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## grantmac (May 31, 2007)

2413gary said:


> I spent the weekend at Vegas shooting and talking to Doug Denton. I am sure I wore him out grilling him on the HPX and F7 limbs. What a great guy. I talked to a few guys that were shooting the HPX also everybody said speed first and formost comparing it to the RX. So if I can generate 5fps more at the same weight. And feel like 2 lbs. less wt. If it stiffens the arrow go to a little heavier point wt. from 100gr. to 110 or 120gr. Create more down range energy. I shoot Barebow nonsight if this does everything they say it will this bow will tighten my short range gaps plus make 90 meters easier to hit. I think they sold me. What do you guys think?


Now if only Hoyt would step up and become to first American manufacturer to produce a decent barebow riser. Not likely I'd say, at least the Italians are filling the niche.

-Grant


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Grant, I think SKY will have this covered soon.


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## grantmac (May 31, 2007)

limbwalker said:


> Grant, I think SKY will have this covered soon.


Not a fan of the reflex, unless they are looking at something a little more target oriented?

-Grant


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## fader (May 17, 2010)

2413gary said:


> I spent the weekend at Vegas shooting and talking to Doug Denton. I am sure I wore him out grilling him on the HPX and F7 limbs. What a great guy. I talked to a few guys that were shooting the HPX also everybody said speed first and formost comparing it to the RX. So if I can generate 5fps more at the same weight. And feel like 2 lbs. less wt. If it stiffens the arrow go to a little heavier point wt. from 100gr. to 110 or 120gr. Create more down range energy. I shoot Barebow nonsight if this does everything they say it will this bow will tighten my short range gaps plus make 90 meters easier to hit. I think they sold me. What do you guys think?


Shot my HPX and F7's for first time yesterday. Agreed it is fast and smooth. Don't agree regarding dropping arrow spine with same weight limbs. In fact it looks like i'll be INCREASING spine somewhat dramatically. From X-10 650's to 550's (might tune to my 600's with a little tweaking). Admittedly I'm using a different type of fastflight string than my last bow. Perhaps that's the issue.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Patience is a virtue, or so I hear... 



grantmac said:


> Not a fan of the reflex, unless they are looking at something a little more target oriented?
> 
> -Grant


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

fader said:


> Shot my HPX and F7's for first time yesterday. Agreed it is fast and smooth. Don't agree regarding dropping arrow spine with same weight limbs. In fact it looks like i'll be INCREASING spine somewhat dramatically. From X-10 650's to 550's (might tune to my 600's with a little tweaking). Admittedly I'm using a different type of fastflight string than my last bow. Perhaps that's the issue.


So, now I'm curious to hear whether Frank had to switch back to his heavier points, or if the new bow has the same property as the RX, causing you to use a stiffer spine.

Can you answer that yet Frank?


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## Aspirin Buster (Mar 25, 2004)

Howdy from Indianapolis John,
No, I am in the middle of my show season and am at a show this weekend, and then Ohio and then New York.. As soon as I can I am going to get my New model set up. I am anxious to get it on stage but need an afternoon to get it set up, it's still in the box. I do have the F7 limbs with me.. Love them.

More soon, thanks for your kind words on LW the other day.

Take care


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## harvyedavies (Feb 4, 2012)

Hello Frank, are you using the F7s on the RX riser if so do you change BH at all?


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Frank, you're welcome. Look forward to seeing what arrows work from the new bow. Without one in my hands, I got to get the info however I can.

I have my brother's RX to play with for a week or so, and I look forward to putting it through it's paces. If curiosity killed the cat, then this is what it does to me. It makes me play with lots of bows and arrows. ha, ha.

I just shot a Personal Best indoor score today, almost 9 years after first picking up the Olympic recurve. It is so satisfying to have a good day. I wish you the same.

John


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## Aspirin Buster (Mar 25, 2004)

No, with my Formula RX I leave the BH at 9 1/4", even with the F7 limbs. The geometry of the new riser iswhat changes the BH so the HPX will probably have a 8 3/4 BH.

John, please tell me the high score was with the Formula.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Sorry. Shot it with my 27" Bernardini Luxor riser and new SKY bamboo core limbs. The CXL 150 arrows didn't hurt either. This is the best performing indoor target recurve I've shot to date. At one point, I shot 30 10's in a row, and I tied Vic's 30-arrow TX indoor record with my final 30 arrows - a 296. It was a very satisfying day to do that next to my brother James, with several good friends and students in the building.

But don't worry. I'm going to give the RX a workout this week.

John


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Frank, I finally had a chance to shoot an RX today. Very impressive shooting qualities. Quiet and free from most all vibration. Very enjoyable to shoot, as I'm sure most RX owners already know. However, I was very dissapointed with the speed. The F3 limbs are a full 3 fps. slower than my slowest limbs (W&W Inno) and 5 fps. slower than my SKY and Samick Masters. I would have compared them to my Borders, but they require a significantly different spine - even at the same draw weight - so there is no way to really compare them. Perhaps the foam core limbs are faster? 

I ran a draw force curve on them today, and they are very smooth through the clicker, but there is nearly no pre-load in the limbs, which is probably where the difference in speed comes from.

Once again, it seems Hoyt managed to produce a world class riser with sub-par limbs. But hey, they look nice!  

Thinking a nice pair of SKY bamboo core limbs would fix that riser right up! 

I can see why you enjoy shooting it so much Frank. It's enjoyable to shoot, so long as you don't need a lot of speed. I can also see why you would have to drop point weight. Even though they are slower, they demand a stiffer dynamic spine. Not a real great combination unfortunately.

This helps me understand why the new geometry for their new bow.

John


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Draw force curves of the Hoyt F3 limbs on the RX, SKY bamboo core limbs on my Bernardini Luxor riser, and Border Hex-6w limbs on my Axis riser. All bows 72". Peak draw was 47# for Hoyt, 45# for SKY and 44# for Border.

When I get some time, I'll run them all again at 47#, but this is what I have for now. 

Only other thing I noticed right off is the design of the grip region, virtually precluding it's use by those who prefer a low grip position. It would take some effort to get a workable low grip on these risers, but for most archers this isn't an issue of course.

John


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## Jim C (Oct 15, 2002)

limbwalker said:


> Draw force curves of the Hoyt F3 limbs on the RX, SKY bamboo core limbs on my Bernardini Luxor riser, and Border Hex-6w limbs on my Axis riser. All bows 72". Peak draw was 47# for Hoyt, 45# for SKY and 44# for Border.
> 
> When I get some time, I'll run them all again at 47#, but this is what I have for now.
> 
> ...


the first thing I do when I get a Formula riser is to buy one of the plastic grips that originally were introduced on the Hoyt Helix. I have a box full of the wood ones from GMX, and now Formulas. I let those who like tinkering with their grips play around with the dremel tool in our range and those wood grips. The plastic ones I like fine


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Jim, I agree those plastic grips were pretty good as-is. I could see Rabska's influence there, I think, and they went in a good direction when they left the old Avalon grip platform for the new ergo and ortho grips. But the wood grip on my brother's bow is just too high for me. I shoot a pretty low grip these days, and have been using Jim Belcher / Paul Jeager's "2.0" scallop design in the lower left corner with very good success.

John


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## Jim C (Oct 15, 2002)

limbwalker said:


> Jim, I agree those plastic grips were pretty good as-is. I could see Rabska's influence there, I think, and they went in a good direction when they left the old Avalon grip platform for the new ergo and ortho grips. But the wood grip on my brother's bow is just too high for me. I shoot a pretty low grip these days, and have been using Jim Belcher / Paul Jeager's "2.0" scallop design in the lower left corner with very good success.
> 
> John


I spent several months working with Paul on a grip for the new skys. Sent a bunch back and forth along with sending him one of my plastic hoyt grips. consulted with DP as to his suggestions. I still couldn't find something better than the plastic hoyt grip. which is what I will shoot on the HPX I will soon be setting up for outdoors.

I don't like the wood ones as well and I am not into spending hours with a dremel tool. I like something that I can replace instantly if it breaks as well


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

That all sounds very familiar to me... 

I agree on the replaceable feature. That's no small thing. Duplication is very important when switching from bow to bow. I wish manufacturers would settle on one platform, but that will never happen. Too bad that all our American companies have their own unique grip area on their risers...


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## lizard (Jul 4, 2003)

JOhn,
If you get a hold of some F7 limbs in carbon/foam, I think you will find them FAST! Sean McLaughlin got a pair in and tried them and they were quite speedy, we didn't have time to set them through a chrono, but there was virtually no time between release and thwack! QUite impressive. I am glad to see you enjoyed shooting the RX. I got a bit concerned when you "seemed" to be overly critical without actually shooting the darn bow! It's sweet, and I have to say very forgiving. I'm even shooting it barebow style indoors, and possibly outdoors! I do love "Pearl", that is what I call her! Pearl, because she is Pearl White!!!
We have something like 13-15 of these FORMULA bows, and ALL our top shooters are shooting them...for good reason!





limbwalker said:


> Frank, I finally had a chance to shoot an RX today. Very impressive shooting qualities. Quiet and free from most all vibration. Very enjoyable to shoot, as I'm sure most RX owners already know. However, I was very dissapointed with the speed. The F3 limbs are a full 3 fps. slower than my slowest limbs (W&W Inno) and 5 fps. slower than my SKY and Samick Masters. I would have compared them to my Borders, but they require a significantly different spine - even at the same draw weight - so there is no way to really compare them. Perhaps the foam core limbs are faster?
> 
> I ran a draw force curve on them today, and they are very smooth through the clicker, but there is nearly no pre-load in the limbs, which is probably where the difference in speed comes from.
> 
> ...


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## Jim C (Oct 15, 2002)

limbwalker said:


> That all sounds very familiar to me...
> 
> I agree on the replaceable feature. That's no small thing. Duplication is very important when switching from bow to bow. I wish manufacturers would settle on one platform, but that will never happen. Too bad that all our American companies have their own unique grip area on their risers...


I have always gone with stock items in every sport. The last real customization I had was a longer stock on my MT-6 Olympic Skeet Gun in 1978. When I started shooting the K-gun I went with their standard international stock. It was a good move-at one big shoot, my triggers broke and I my back up was in the shop getting worked on. Fortunately, one of the guys I trained with shot K-guns and had a back up with the standard stock and I was able to win with his gun. If that plastic hoyt grip breaks, I can take one off one of the 5-6 other bows that have the same grip in my collection and if I am away from home chances someone else has one I can borrow.

Now if I spend 10 hours building some super duper bondo and wood, dremel and file grip and it breaks I am S O L

It would be nice if all risers would take the same grip-like they do the same plunger threads sight screws etc

It also would be nice if every 9mm pistol I own took say glock mags or Beretta military mags which are cheap rather than 50 dollar HK mags etc.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Liz, if a person carefully reads my posts about the formula bows, they will realize that it's not the bow I am critical of. A bow is simply a tool. A piece of metal and wood and carbon. Hoyt has always made great risers. I still shoot my Axis riser all the time. Shot it today in fact. And I can see why the RX is very popular - because that riser is indeed another great Hoyt riser. However, for whatever reason, their limbs have always been slow and stacky. At least the F3's weren't stacky. They did draw smooth. Slow, but smooth. I believe you about the F7's. As I've said before, I'm glad to hear they've finally caught up, because W&W and Samick, and now SKY have been outpacing Hoyt limbs for as long as I have been shooting target bows. 

John


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## Aspirin Buster (Mar 25, 2004)

I love the F7 limbs...wow they are sweet. Shooting them and loving them.


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## DBrewer (Jul 17, 2010)

DBrewer said:


> What I DO want to try though is the new limb bolts on the HPX, I hope Hoyt offers those retail…I wouldn’t mind putting them on my Rx.


Sorry to bring this thread back up again, but since I posted this LAS got the pro bolts in stock. So I ordered a pair...pretty cool. What I really like about them is the Delrin liner they put in them...no more creaky limbs...really!....that's worth the cost in and of itself.


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