# Why on earth a 650 grain arrow for a whitetail in the northeast.



## Blade1970 (Oct 9, 2016)

I know I will get some crap for posting this. Just a little feedback. I have bow hunted every single year since 85 and have harvested over 300 dear because I live on a farm with a crop damage stamp. My old bow shot 302 fps and I used a gold tip at 8.2 grains per inch with spitfire tips (100 grain) and since I hunt on the ground I always get a straight pass through on a deer. I see so many new hunters going with much heavier arrows. Almost all the misses in archery is due to the drop of the arrow and yet it seems like the new trend is to hunt with these heavy arrows. Mine goes stright through sometimes 30-40 yrds past where I hit the deer. Did I miss something in the last few years for the heavy arrow thing?


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## Shphtr (Oct 12, 2016)

Because weight kills and speed don’t


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## Bowman1989 (Sep 12, 2018)

I agree 650 grains is insane but honestly a dropping arrow is not why ppl miss especially today with rangefinders. People miss because of lack of practice or the big one, buck fever.


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## nuttinbutchunks (Jul 18, 2008)

My son likes Dr Ashby and is always talking about front loading his shafts. What ever! My arrows weigh 390 grains and I've killed a bear with them. I like to have 100 yards range, not that I would take that shot all the time but I did kill a mule deer at 98 yards. Heavier shafts would shorten that range and I'm just not into that.


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## dtrkyman (Jul 27, 2004)

https://youtu.be/mLr2Uyno8Kg


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## Shphtr (Oct 12, 2016)

Never takes long for ignorance to show up. People really need to educate themselves


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## dtrkyman (Jul 27, 2004)

You can see what looks like a large 2 blade slash, rage maybe? Deer probably had his leg back or jumped string but a 650 grain arrow with a fixed head goes through! Aaron shoots that other buck they show in the video through the shoulder with a Montec and an fmj !


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## H80Hunter (Jan 23, 2016)

Because if you’re in the northeast, you’re not shooting a mule deer at 100 yards. If you shoot a 400 grain arrow and even a 650 grain arrow side by side, you’ll see that the difference isn’t what you expect.


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## loujo61 (Apr 29, 2005)

Shphtr said:


> Because weight kills and speed don’t





Shphtr said:


> Never takes long for ignorance to show up. People really need to educate themselves


How does weight without speed kill? Educate us on this, please.


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## copterdoc (Oct 9, 2005)

Blade1970 said:


> I know I will get some crap for posting this. Just a little feedback. I have bow hunted every single year since 85 and have harvested over 300 dear because I live on a farm with a crop damage stamp. My old bow shot 302 fps and I used a gold tip at 8.2 grains per inch with spitfire tips (100 grain) and since I hunt on the ground I always get a straight pass through on a deer. I see so many new hunters going with much heavier arrows. Almost all the misses in archery is due to the drop of the arrow and yet it seems like the new trend is to hunt with these heavy arrows. Mine goes stright through sometimes 30-40 yrds past where I hit the deer. Did I miss something in the last few years for the heavy arrow thing?


You are exactly right.
A 650 grain arrow is way overkill for Whitetails.

A 400 to 450 grain arrow, traveling at 270 FPS will get reliable 100% passthrough penetration of a deer's rib cage. Even with 1.5"+ diameter mechanical heads.
And those numbers are easily achievable at the average DL, and less than 70# of DW.

Most people can't get a 650 grain arrow going faster than 220 FPS.
Arrows going that slow drop fast, giving deer excessive time to "jump the string" and make precise range estimation critical.

You'll lose more deer by shooting an arrow that is heavier than it needs to be, than you will from getting poor penetration.


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## rjoe (Jun 6, 2009)

Turn your back on someone and have them shoot a 390 gr arrow and then a 650 gr arrow. You might be surprised. Deer don't jump what they don't hear.


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## loujo61 (Apr 29, 2005)

H80Hunter said:


> Because if you’re in the northeast, you’re not shooting a mule deer at 100 yards. If you shoot a 400 grain arrow and even a 650 grain arrow side by side, you’ll see that the difference isn’t what you expect.


I have 6-7"s of drop between 20 and 35 yards, how many more inches of drop should I expect if I add 250 grains to my 400 grain arrow?


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## KMiha (Jan 8, 2015)

Because I can. Why on earth do you care? 

People don’t miss because of how fast or how slow their arrow is. People miss because they made bad shots. I’ve seen people miss with crossbows that shoot well over 300 FPS.


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## copterdoc (Oct 9, 2005)

rjoe said:


> Turn your back on someone and have them shoot a 390 gr arrow and then a 650 gr arrow. You might be surprised. Deer don't jump what they don't hear.


Stand downrange behind a barrier and listen to the arrow coming towards/past you.
Even you will "jump" that sound.

I don't care how quiet you make a bow. 
It's always going to be loud enough that even the most deaf deer in the woods can easily hear it.


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## loujo61 (Apr 29, 2005)

copterdoc said:


> You are exactly right.
> A 650 grain arrow is way overkill for Whitetails.
> 
> A 400 to 450 grain arrow, traveling at 270 FPS will get reliable 100% passthrough penetration of a deer's rib cage. Even with 1.5"+ diameter mechanical heads.
> ...


I shot that speed back in the 1980s! Not because I wanted to but because that's all you could get out of that equipment, been there done that. The good old days were not that good...


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## Shphtr (Oct 12, 2016)

loujo61 said:


> How does weight without speed kill? Educate us on this, please.


Nope I’m good. I educated myself on the subject, a lot here should try it here instead of posting baseless nonsense that proves they know nothing on the subject


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## Mbrazier (Sep 9, 2014)

same as y use a 300 win mag on a whitetail


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## ARnut31 (Dec 24, 2006)

Keep shooting your fizzle sticks. Someday you’ll come to the heavy side


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## BuckmasterB (Mar 2, 2019)

To each his own. What ever works for you


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## Frederick D. Be (Mar 3, 2009)

Shphtr said:


> Never takes long for ignorance to show up. People really need to educate themselves


Hi...just because someone states an opinion does not make them ignorant. The heaviest arrow I hunt whitetails with is 380 grains...that is my choice. If I were to go after elk...larger game...then I would go up to around 420 grains probably...maybe a little higher depending on tuning/arrow flight. Weight is very good...momentum vs kinetic energy has been discussed in depth on here. But, what it really boils down to is it enough energy to get through the animal and is a person comfortable with it. Hope this helps. Cheers!
Fred


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## Alaska at heart (Aug 25, 2009)

I hunt deer and turkeys with a 420gr Easton Axis arrow and do just fine, but killed my moose in AK shooting a recurve with a 565gr arrow and very sharp two blade Magnus head. I was definitely under 200fps on my 23-24 yard shot, but blew through the bull and lost my arrow on the back side in the alders. My AK friend went back after leaves had dropped and found my arrow about 15 yards beyond the spot the moose was standing. THAT is why a heavier arrow works well in the field on real game. Whether it is "necessary" is up to the individual shooting that weight of arrow.....who am I to judge?


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## loujo61 (Apr 29, 2005)

Mbrazier said:


> same as y use a 300 win mag on a whitetail


At least the 300 win mag is fast.


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## copterdoc (Oct 9, 2005)

ARnut31 said:


> Keep shooting your fizzle sticks. Someday you’ll come to the heavy side


I've been on both sides of this argument. 
I've hunted (and killed) deer with arrows that were way too light, and arrows that were way too heavy.

There is a balance that you have to strike.

And for Whitetails, 650 grains is way too heavy.


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## Shphtr (Oct 12, 2016)

Frederick D. Be said:


> Hi...just because someone states an opinion does not make them ignorant. The heaviest arrow I hunt whitetails with is 380 grains...that is my choice. If I were to go after elk...larger game...then I would go up to around 420 grains probably...maybe a little higher depending on tuning/arrow flight. Weight is very good...momentum vs kinetic energy has been discussed in depth on here. But, what it really boils down to is it enough energy to get through the animal and is a person comfortable with it. Hope this helps. Cheers!
> Fred


Actually if you state an opinion it’s a fact like in this post it totally makes you ignorant. And btw energy is not what controls penetration


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## loujo61 (Apr 29, 2005)

loujo61 said:


> How does weight without speed kill? Educate us on this, please.





Shphtr said:


> Because weight kills and speed don’t





Shphtr said:


> Nope I’m good. I educated myself on the subject, a lot here should try it here instead of posting baseless nonsense that proves they know nothing on the subject


Your post ^^ is about as baseless and nonsensical as it gets.


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## copterdoc (Oct 9, 2005)

Hey Shphtr,

Have you actually ever killed a deer?


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## loujo61 (Apr 29, 2005)

Shphtr said:


> Actually if you state an opinion it’s a fact like in this post it totally makes you ignorant. And btw energy is not what controls penetration


How do you get energy without speed?


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## Shphtr (Oct 12, 2016)

copterdoc said:


> Hey Shphtr,
> 
> Have you actually ever killed a deer?


Hahahha


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## copterdoc (Oct 9, 2005)

Shphtr said:


> Hahahha


So that's a no.


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## Shphtr (Oct 12, 2016)

loujo61 said:


> How do you get energy without speed?



No one said speed wasn’t a factor but it’s the least important factor


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## Shphtr (Oct 12, 2016)

copterdoc said:


> So that's a no.



How about 50 plus , few dozen Alaska brown and grizzly, Dall sheep , moose , bison ,wolf, caribou , Sitka black tail does that count for my experience smh


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## gettinold (Oct 23, 2013)

"Mine goes stright through sometimes 30-40 yrds past where I hit the deer."

I don't think so.


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## copterdoc (Oct 9, 2005)

Shphtr said:


> How about 50 plus , few dozen Alaska brown and grizzly, Dall sheep , moose , bison ,wolf, caribou , Sitka black tail does that count for my experience smh


I don't believe you. At all.


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## loujo61 (Apr 29, 2005)

Shphtr said:


> Because weight kills and speed don’t





Shphtr said:


> No one said speed wasn’t a factor but it’s the least important factor


Hmm.


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## Gruder (Feb 19, 2016)

I don't see what it matters to anyone else, you know as long as they practice and set thier pins appropriately, as long as they have fun and enjoy it. Yeah sure probably overkill but hit the scapula and it may help. Not trying to be argumentive but Sorry I just don't see the big problem. 150 gr. head might be fun


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## Shphtr (Oct 12, 2016)

copterdoc said:


> I don't believe you. At all.


You don’t have to. My guide license says otherwise lol


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## Shphtr (Oct 12, 2016)

loujo61 said:


> Hmm.


Correct speed doesn’t kill but I never said it wasn’t a factor


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## copterdoc (Oct 9, 2005)

Gruder said:


> I don't see what it matters to anyone else, you know as long as they practice and set thier pins appropriately, as long as they have fun and enjoy it. Yeah sure probably overkill but hit the scapula and it may help. Sorry I just don't see the big problem


90% of the scapula covers nothing but meat. Shoulder roast specifically.

Every time I've hit scapula, my broadhead penetrated it far enough. But the only times I recovered the animal, was if it was low enough to hit the spinal cord.
I've never had an arrow hit low enough on the scapula to enter the chest cavity.


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## Allen cox (Dec 29, 2018)

I' ll take the 400 grain anyday


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## Gruder (Feb 19, 2016)

copterdoc said:


> 90% of the scapula covers nothing but meat. Shoulder roast specifically.
> 
> Every time I've hit scapula, my broadhead penetrated it far enough. But the only times I recovered the animal, was if it was low enough to hit the spinal cord.
> I've never had an arrow hit low enough on the scapula to enter the chest cavity.


How about spine, frontal shot, femoral artery? Many situations it may help.


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## Gruder (Feb 19, 2016)

Or a scapula on a 1/4 to, anywhere you may need extra penetration on a good or bad decision? Anyway again what does it matter to anyone else? Maybe someone setting up for future heavier game


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## copterdoc (Oct 9, 2005)

Gruder said:


> How about spine, frontal shot, femoral artery? Many situations it may help.


There are many more circumstances where the slower arrow results in nothing vital being in it's path when it finally gets there, than there are instances that more penetration than you had with a 400 grain/270 FPS arrow would have mattered.


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## Allen cox (Dec 29, 2018)

Iv always wondered if Chuck Adams ever visted this site.


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## Shphtr (Oct 12, 2016)

copterdoc said:


> There are many more circumstances where the slower arrow results in nothing vital being in it's path when it finally gets there, than there are instances that more penetration than you had with a 400 grain/270 FPS arrow would have mattered.


You should seriously stop. Go talk to some trad folks and ask them how they blow through moose when they are barely breaking 170 ish.


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## Allen cox (Dec 29, 2018)

Shphtr said:


> copterdoc said:
> 
> 
> > So that's a no.
> ...


 i guess he does !!!


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## copterdoc (Oct 9, 2005)

Think about this.
Have you lost more deer due to not getting enough penetration, than you have after getting a pass-through?

Pass-through hits are desirable. But they don't guarantee that you'll recover the animal.


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## Shphtr (Oct 12, 2016)

copterdoc said:


> There are many more circumstances where the slower arrow results in nothing vital being in it's path when it finally gets there, than there are instances that more penetration than you had with a 400 grain/270 FPS arrow would have mattered.


You should seriously stop. Go talk to some trad folks and ask them how they blow through moose when they are barely breaking 170 ish.


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## loujo61 (Apr 29, 2005)

Gruder said:


> Or a scapula on a 1/4 to, anywhere you may need extra penetration on a good or bad decision? Anyway again what does it matter to anyone else? Maybe someone setting up for future heavier game


Because adding an extra half once to an once arrow shouldn't give you a green light on a 1/4 to shot.


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## copterdoc (Oct 9, 2005)

Shphtr said:


> ..........Go talk to some trad folks and ask them how they blow through moose when they are barely breaking 170 ish.


Their recovery rates are also atrocious.


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## Shphtr (Oct 12, 2016)

loujo61 said:


> Because adding an extra half once to an once arrow shouldn't give you a green light on a 1/4 to shot.


Absolutely true in my opinion but it definitely helps for the “what if” factor


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## Shphtr (Oct 12, 2016)

copterdoc said:


> Their recovery rates are also atrocious.


Not where I’m from


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## Gruder (Feb 19, 2016)

Just spent 10 mins typing brilliant response then lost it all on page reload then it happened again, very frustrating. 
Anyway I like and respect copterdoc many because he congratulated me on my buck kill, lol. I guess my point is you don't need it, it may help once in awhile. But it's up to the one shooting bow anyway. There's no law against heavy arrow is there? For the record I shot average weight for 30 years, about 380-420, went up to 480ish last two years. I liked but they both work


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## bow_hunter44 (Apr 20, 2007)

Is 400 grains enough to kill a north east whitetail? Yes. But the argument that comes to mind is that there is no such thing as 'too dead', but there is certainly such a thing as 'not dead enough'! Can you kill a deer with a .243? Sure. Is a .270 a better choice. Absolutely.


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## tack09 (Feb 13, 2009)

Shphtr said:


> Actually if you state an opinion it’s a fact like in this post it totally makes you ignorant. And btw energy is not what controls penetration


Your name fits your comments in this thread perfect! You seem to be talking out of it also.


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## tack09 (Feb 13, 2009)

bow_hunter44 said:


> Is 400 grains enough to kill a north east whitetail? Yes. But the argument that comes to mind is that there is no such thing as 'too dead', but there is certainly such a thing as 'not dead enough'! Can you kill a deer with a .243? Sure. Is a .270 a better choice. Absolutely.


Is a 375 H&H Mag. overkill?


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## GreggWNY (Sep 6, 2002)

I wont go 650 grains but I'd never go to under 500 grains either. I went the light arrow/more speed crap for years. Without getting into the details I will say I feel confident putting a 2" rage through ever deer I hit at 250 fps and a 60 lbs/27.5" bow. MOMENTUM not KE is what does the job.


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## Dafis (Jul 12, 2009)

50lb Halon 32 6 395 gr rage complete pass thru at 30 yards, he went 30 yards. It would have fallen over with a 500 gr arrow also.


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## Gruder (Feb 19, 2016)

Dafis said:


> 50lb Halon 32 6 395 gr rage complete pass thru at 30 yards, he went 30 yards. It would have fallen over with a 500 gr arrow also.


Beautiful, good example, nice shot


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## iceman14 (Jan 25, 2011)

Whitetail scapulas aren’t stopping anything. Joint, yeah that’s a different story. The only reason people go heavy is because they must enjoy tinkering with arrows or got brainwashed by a “dr”. I’ll be under 450 forever just because of the nonsense on here. I don’t really care if guys want to shoot 600+ grain arrows, whatever floats your boat. But it’s completely unnecessary. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## tack09 (Feb 13, 2009)

iceman14 said:


> Whitetail scapulas aren’t stopping anything. Joint, yeah that’s a different story. The only reason people go heavy is because they must enjoy tinkering with arrows or got brainwashed by a “dr”. I’ll be under 450 forever just because of the nonsense on here. I don’t really care if guys want to shoot 600+ grain arrows, whatever floats your boat. But it’s completely unnecessary.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Well said Iceman.


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## Allen cox (Dec 29, 2018)

We all know 400gr will do the job, we all know 650gr will do the job,but why give up better speed and better trajectory on that 35yd shot that the lighter arrow brings, i understand the marginal hit idea that the heavy arrows brings but 650 for whitail, which is all i hunt, ( except for 2 bears that i got lucky on ) is extremely heavy to me, if you chronod at 35 yds a 500 gr vs a 650 gr is it worth it, its just my opinion and iv i actually never used a 650gr arrow , i dont really know anyone that does for deer, and i seriously dout i ever will, iv had to many pass thru with a 375gr, to me 400 is plenty at 300 fps, i dont know what fps i would get with 650 ??


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## copterdoc (Oct 9, 2005)

Allen cox said:


> We all know 400gr will do the job, we all know 650gr will do the job,but why give up better speed and better trajectory on that 35yd shot that the lighter arrow brings, i understand the marginal hit idea that the heavy arrows brings but 650 for whitail, which is all i hunt, ( except for 2 bears that i got lucky on ) is extremely heavy to me, if you chronod at 35 yds a 500 gr vs a 650 gr is it worth it, its just my opinion and iv i actually never used a 650gr arrow , i dont really know anyone that does for deer, and i seriously dout i ever will, iv had to many pass thru with a 375gr, to me 400 is plenty at 300 fps, i dont know what fps i would get with 650 ??


You'll lose about 80 FPS going from 400 to 650 grains.
About the same as losing 8" of draw length, or 40# of draw weight.


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## rob-c (Mar 9, 2010)

I have my wife that has a 25.5 inch draw at 40 lbs shooting a 398 grain Easton ions with 75 grain brass insert with a 100 grain 3 blade head. She’s had excelent results on deer, not a heavy arrow but heavy for her set up. Me I am a true 32 inch draw and have shot 400’ ish grain arrows for years. I have had multiple pass through’s with nap spitfires where’s the head cut ribs In half on the way in and out and still buried in the ground to the shaft . Is a heavy shaft needed ? in some cases sure, but not always mandatory. But having said that, what ever one wants to use you need to know your equipment.


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## nightvision (Aug 30, 2011)

Why does anyone care what someone else shoots? Why not question their arrows, bow, broadhead? Want to shoot logs? Go for it. Lightweight straws? Have at it.

Thought we were all on the same team.


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## nightvision (Aug 30, 2011)

rob-c said:


> I have my wife that has a 25.5 inch draw at 40 lbs shooting a 398 grain Easton ions with 75 grain brass insert with a 100 grain 3 blade head. She’s had excelent results on deer, not a heavy arrow but heavy for her set up. Me I am a true 32 inch draw and have shot 400’ ish grain arrows for years. I have had multiple pass through’s with nap spitfires where’s the head cut ribs In half on the way in and out and still buried in the ground to the shaft . Is a heavy shaft needed ? in some cases sure, but not always mandatory. But having said that, what ever one wants to use you need to know your equipment.


Your wife’s arrow is the equivalent of a 60lber using 600 grain arrows or a 70lbsr using 700 grain arrows.


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## rob-c (Mar 9, 2010)

nightvision said:


> Your wife’s arrow is the equivalent of a 60lber using 600 grain arrows or a 70lbsr using 700 grain arrows.


Right I am not saying to not use a heavy arrow, but for me with my long draw and even at 60 lb draw weight I see no advantage to myself going to a heavy arrow. If a guy that has average draw length wants to shoot a 600 grain arrow have at it. But honestly it’s not absolutely needed on a whitetail.


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## Shphtr (Oct 12, 2016)

tack09 said:


> Your name fits your comments in this thread perfect! You seem to be talking out of it also.


Yeah I’m not like you cool kids with all the posts. Sadly my experience comes from the real world... oh well


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## hoyt fo life555 (Jan 31, 2005)

copterdoc said:


> Stand downrange behind a barrier and listen to the arrow coming towards/past you.
> Even you will "jump" that sound.
> 
> I don't care how quiet you make a bow.
> It's always going to be loud enough that even the most deaf deer in the woods can easily hear it.


Yep, there’s no way your going to make them silent. I’ve had them react to the russel of a candy wrapper in my coat pocket. I fart louder then that. Any Un natural noise is going to be noticed, it’s just a matter of how they react to it.


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## brutus69 (Jun 13, 2009)

could have been a good discussion if it hadn't turned into a pissing match. this site is starting to get old. people kill deer with all kinds of set ups from extremely low gpi to extremely high gpi. a simple fact is the more mass you have the more momentum you have. is there a point of diminishing returns that would be an individual decision, everyone has there idea of what the best set up is.
but that's just my opinion, take it or leave it.


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## dtrkyman (Jul 27, 2004)

basically any set up will work on ideal shots, the heavy stuff helps when things go wrong! All of the whitetail bucks I have not recovered were shot in the shoulder area and lack of penetration was a major problem! Would I have gotten them all with a heavy arrow, no, but a couple of them for sure!


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## Allen cox (Dec 29, 2018)

Shphtr said:


> copterdoc said:
> 
> 
> > So that's a no.
> ...


 if had shot dozens of grizzly with a 650gr arrow like you have i would post the pics !?!?!??


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## Allen cox (Dec 29, 2018)

Shphtr said:


> tack09 said:
> 
> 
> > Your name fits your comments in this thread perfect! You seem to be talking out of it also.
> ...


 should us cool kids start posting pics ?? I only have 2 blackbears unlike youre dozens of grizzly but i will be glad to share .


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## loujo61 (Apr 29, 2005)

Allen cox said:


> should us cool kids start posting pics ?? I only have 2 blackbears unlike youre dozens of grizzly but i will be glad to share .


Poser


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## Shphtr (Oct 12, 2016)

Allen cox said:


> if had shot dozens of grizzly with a 650gr arrow like you have i would post the pics !?!?!??


They were clients smh


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## pa.hunter (Jan 3, 2008)

Blade1970 said:


> I know I will get some crap for posting this. Just a little feedback. I have bow hunted every single year since 85 and have harvested over 300 dear because I live on a farm with a crop damage stamp. My old bow shot 302 fps and I used a gold tip at 8.2 grains per inch with spitfire tips (100 grain) and since I hunt on the ground I always get a straight pass through on a deer. I see so many new hunters going with much heavier arrows. Almost all the misses in archery is due to the drop of the arrow and yet it seems like the new trend is to hunt with these heavy arrows. Mine goes stright through sometimes 30-40 yrds past where I hit the deer. Did I miss something in the last few years for the heavy arrow thing?


i shoot 500 why bow is quieter lasts longer and if i mess shot up hit bone better chance to have a dead deer at end of blood trail why not ?


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## frog gigger (May 4, 2007)

gettinold said:


> "Mine goes stright through sometimes 30-40 yrds past where I hit the deer."
> 
> I don't think so.


Maybe it's a crossbow.:noidea:


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## Shphtr (Oct 12, 2016)

Allen cox said:


> should us cool kids start posting pics ?? I only have 2 blackbears unlike youre dozens of grizzly but i will be glad to share .


I share plenty just not on this sight. This place is a joke. I help folks all the time fufill their bucket list at no cost just to give back since I no longer guide.


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## crankn101 (Jan 26, 2007)

dtrkyman said:


> basically any set up will work on ideal shots, the heavy stuff helps when things go wrong! All of the whitetail bucks I have not recovered were shot in the shoulder area and lack of penetration was a major problem! Would I have gotten them all with a heavy arrow, no, but a couple of them for sure!


 So many ways I could go with this one...

The left to right doesnt change, so why were you off by inches horizontally? 

Then add a more arching arrow and distance thats always changing and why do you think you wont be off that direction?


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## copterdoc (Oct 9, 2005)

Shphtr said:


> Yeah I’m not like you cool kids with all the posts. Sadly my experience comes from the real world... oh well


Your experience, or your client's experience?



loujo61 said:


> Poser


No doubt.
This might be OB.


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## copterdoc (Oct 9, 2005)

Shphtr said:


> I share plenty just not on this sight. This place is a joke. I help folks all the time fufill their bucket list at no cost just to give back since I no longer guide.


You are completely FOS.


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## Shphtr (Oct 12, 2016)

copterdoc said:


> You are completely FOS.


No worries cupcake you’ll lead a full life in AT land. I’ll continue to do my thing.


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## copterdoc (Oct 9, 2005)

Shphtr said:


> ....I’ll continue to do my thing.


Lying to people, and pretending to be something you're not?


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## Shphtr (Oct 12, 2016)

copterdoc said:


> Lying to people, and pretending to be something you're not?


Hahahha it’s ok. I didn’t mean to hurt your feelings. It’s been fun


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## copterdoc (Oct 9, 2005)

Shphtr said:


> Hahahha it’s ok. I didn’t mean to hurt your feelings. It’s been fun


You didn't even slightly, hurt my feelings.


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## jjtrain44 (Mar 11, 2008)

BALANCE boys find the balance with your arrow weight and life in general. What ever gives you confidence in your setup and makes you happy. Shooting product X at weight x because others do is like buying a pair of shoes not because they fit you well and you like the looks but because Lebron James does.


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## Allen cox (Dec 29, 2018)

Shphtr said:


> Allen cox said:
> 
> 
> > should us cool kids start posting pics ?? I only have 2 blackbears unlike youre dozens of grizzly but i will be glad to share .
> ...


 thats what i thought, no pics , all talk


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## Allen cox (Dec 29, 2018)

loujo61 said:


> Allen cox said:
> 
> 
> > should us cool kids start posting pics ?? I only have 2 blackbears unlike youre dozens of grizzly but i will be glad to share .
> ...


care to define ( poser) ???


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## rkillar (Jun 14, 2008)

Some folks in the south may use a heavier arrow if there likely to encounter a large hog while deer hunting and they are more forgiving if you hit something you weren't aiming for. That being said I keep mine around 500 gn.


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## Shphtr (Oct 12, 2016)

Allen cox said:


> thats what i thought, no pics , all talk


Yep you got me. AT is always good for a joke thanks for the entertainment lol


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## copterdoc (Oct 9, 2005)

Allen cox said:


> care to define ( poser) ???


I don't think loujo61 was calling _you_ a poser.
He was calling the poser that you quoted, a poser.


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## leoncrandall74 (Apr 9, 2017)

copterdoc said:


> I don't think loujo61 was calling _you_ a poser.
> He was calling the poser that you quoted, a poser.


Lol that's how I took it

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## Allen cox (Dec 29, 2018)

copterdoc said:


> Allen cox said:
> 
> 
> > care to define ( poser) ???
> ...


 ok cool, this what i call a poser, lol. -375 gr and 390 grain arrows.


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## Allen cox (Dec 29, 2018)

If we have time tomorrow we could post the deer, all with a 425gr and under, i will never understand why anyone would use over 500 grains unless your in Africa, then i could understand the use of 650gr for the real big game hunters, im just a weekender in the east.


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## Allen cox (Dec 29, 2018)

jjtrain44 said:


> BALANCE boys find the balance with your arrow weight and life in general. What ever gives you confidence in your setup and makes you happy. Shooting product X at weight x because others do is like buying a pair of shoes not because they fit you well and you like the looks but because Lebron James does.


 best post on this thread, totally agreed, im out till next time.


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## rmscustom (Mar 7, 2011)

I’ve killed a lot of deer with a 320fps 350ish grain arrow in my younger days. Nowadays I’m at 485grs with the goal of being between 270-280fps. I really think that’s the sweet spot for penetration, trajectory and forgiveness.


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## Where's Bruce? (Jul 11, 2011)

That weight s sense if shooting trad.


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## daveparr (Mar 10, 2006)

I just like heavy arrows out of my longbows. I hunt whitetails in Kansas and my shots are usually 15 yards or so. The deer I am after are in the thick stuff so long shots are rare. The heavier arrows are much quieter coming out of the bow and traveling to the animal. In my experience, animals jumping the bow or arrow has a lot to do with noise. My arrows of choice are maple, ash or laminated birch with 190 grizzlies. I hate noisy bows. 

I also shoot compounds over ponds when elk hunting and like close pins so do not go to heavy arrows. Our average shots of ponds are about 40 yards.


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## KSQ2 (Oct 10, 2007)

copterdoc said:


> I've been on both sides of this argument.
> I've hunted (and killed) deer with arrows that were way too light, and arrows that were way too heavy.
> 
> There is a balance that you have to strike.
> ...


I can’t really understand why an arrow would be way too heavy? Those of us who been bowhunting deer since the 80s used heavy arrows back then with much less efficient bows. I’ll wont shoot a deer over 30 yards away, that’s my personal choice. So, my 670 gr arrow works great. I dont shoot it because it hits hard, that’s just a nice perk; I shoot it because I love a whisper quiet shot.


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## levikoehn (Nov 26, 2018)

Wow if you are not paying attention to modern archery an physics and you don't know what (FOC) weight means...than stay in the 80s. Be happy an kill deer 

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## copterdoc (Oct 9, 2005)

KSQ2 said:


> I can’t really understand why an arrow would be way too heavy?


Because you are giving up 80 FPS for *no reason*.

You can't get more than 100% penetration.

A 400 grain arrow at 270 FPS is all that you need, to consistently get pass-through penetration of a Whitetail's vitals. 
It has way more than enough momentum.

A 190 FPS arrow will cost you shot opportunities, and can completely miss the vitals, due to it's poor trajectory, and not reaching the animal before it has time to react, and get out of the way.


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## vonfoust (Jan 9, 2012)

To be honest, I shot a lot of deer in the 80's with the heavy arrows. I don't spend a lot of time at pro shops so by the time I went to 'upgrade' in 2001 or 02 (still before forums really got going so I had no idea I was 'doing it wrong') the guy says "Wow you are shooting telephone poles". Fast forward to 2019. I'm shooting about 500 grains. My comfort range hasn't changed since 1985. So if I'm shooting 390 grains or 650 grains, it really doesn't matter much as far as range. I'm at 40yds on a best case scenario on eastern whitetail. Been that way since 1985. 

So, having said that, why not go heavier?? Going lighter didn't increase my range. But then again, I've often been told to take a flying leap into the 90's :embara:


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## Beartraxx (Sep 22, 2018)

copterdoc said:


> Gruder said:
> 
> 
> > How about spine, frontal shot, femoral artery? Many situations it may help.
> ...


Hey, I love this guy he has the neurotic deer from the matrix that intentionally dodge arrows and bionic vision that can pick out a slightly twitching trigger finger at 100 yards! These deer are legendary and can only be killed with his supersonic death Ray bow!


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## vonfoust (Jan 9, 2012)

Why not go back to overdraws?


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## copterdoc (Oct 9, 2005)

vonfoust said:


> Why not go back to overdraws?


There is no reason to use an overdraw, if you can build a full-length arrow that weighs less than 6 GPP of draw weight.
And that's easy to do with carbon shafts.


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## Beartraxx (Sep 22, 2018)

copterdoc said:


> KSQ2 said:
> 
> 
> > I can’t really understand why an arrow would be way too heavy?
> ...


Which is exactly why No one has ever killed a deer with a traditional bow! They see those arrows coming and run off or just naturally graze out of the way while the arrow is en route! 
Man just stop it's embarrassing.


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## copterdoc (Oct 9, 2005)

Beartraxx said:


> Which is exactly why No one has ever killed a deer with a traditional bow! They see those arrows coming and run off or just naturally graze out of the way while the arrow is en route!
> Man just stop it's embarrassing.


My Mother killed her first and only deer with a Volkswagon. It was only going 50 M.P.H.
I'm still not going to hunt with one of those.


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## copterdoc (Oct 9, 2005)

She didn't even get a pass-through.


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## leoncrandall74 (Apr 9, 2017)

That's just funny 

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## Beartraxx (Sep 22, 2018)

copterdoc said:


> She didn't even get a pass-through.


Are you like 12 or something?


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## copterdoc (Oct 9, 2005)

Beartraxx said:


> Are you like 12 or something?


I'm pretty sure I was bowhunting when you were still in diapers.


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## Beartraxx (Sep 22, 2018)

copterdoc said:


> Beartraxx said:
> 
> 
> > Are you like 12 or something?
> ...


I killed my first archery deer in 1978 with a Browning wasp recurve, an easton aluminum arrow and a bear razorhead. I don't think it's too highly likely you were shooting deer while I was in diapers.


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## copterdoc (Oct 9, 2005)

Beartraxx said:


> I killed my first archery deer in 1978 with a Browning wasp recurve, an easton aluminum arrow and a bear razorhead. I don't think it's too highly likely you were shooting deer while I was in diapers.


In that case, you're older than I am.


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## mn5503 (Feb 21, 2006)

I can remember a time on AT, long long ago, when my 450g whitetail arrow was considered plenty heavy. Maybe because it is.


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## leoncrandall74 (Apr 9, 2017)

mn5503 said:


> I can remember a time on AT, long long ago, when my 450g whitetail arrow was considered plenty heavy. Maybe because it is.


Never known a time when it wasn't heavy enough

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## hawkdriver55 (Sep 6, 2010)

Reduces noise, bone crushing penetration and because you can. But I hunt with between 420 and 475 in the compounds and 525 in traditional gear.


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## Guardian Shoote (Jan 11, 2007)

Shoot what you like, just be proffecient with the equipment you choose, and enjoy the sport.


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## Normash Shwacks (Jun 2, 2018)

I'd say it's because he's been drinking Ashby koolaid

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## BDHUNTR (May 24, 2003)

My arrows tend to range between 475 and 500 grains. 

Regardless of other’s opinions, in my history of bowhunting, I noticed a decrease in pass-thrus when I dropped to lighter-weight arrows (365-400 grains). I know others have different results (which may be affected by draw weight, draw length, what cams they are shooting, etc.). All I know is that I have failed twice to get a total pass-thru when shooting arrows that are 475-500 grains. Once was a spine hit that was stopped at exit by the vanes, and the other was a quartering-away shot that exited the off-side brisket and was stopped by the off-side leg. In both cases the deer dropped either at the spot of the shot (spine hit) or went 40 yards. 

I hunt some thick places, where in early-mid seasons a deer can run off 20 yards and you can lose sight of it. My goal is to always get a full pass-thru. Always. Do I need a 650 grain arrow for that? No. I don’t. 475-500 grains works for me as far as speed, accuracy and penetration. But if someone prefers 650 grains and they are familiar with how their arrow flies, good for them. I highly doubt shots between tbe tree and 20 yards are affected much by shooting a 650 grain arrow. And out of the many deer I’ve arrowed over 20+ years, the average shot distance is 17 yards. My preference are close shots, as I like them to be close (that’s why I prefer bowhunting), but also due to the fact that those thick places rarely offer shots longer than 25 yards or you will hit a twig you don’t see. 

650 grains may be a tad high for most, but it’s not outrageously high. I’m sure many think my 500 grain arrows are stupid heavy. Such is life!


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## ARnut31 (Dec 24, 2006)

Who really gives a crap about how heavy of an arrow someone else shoots?


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## deadquiet (Jan 25, 2005)

BDHUNTR said:


> My arrows tend to range between 475 and 500 grains.
> 
> Regardless of other’s opinions, in my history of bowhunting, I noticed a decrease in pass-thrus when I dropped to lighter-weight arrows (365-400 grains). I know others have different results (which may be affected by draw weight, draw length, what cams they are shooting, etc.). All I know is that I have failed twice to get a total pass-thru when shooting arrows that are 475-500 grains.
> shots longer than 25 yards or you will hit a twig you don’t see.


My theory on that is maybe they have, maybe they haven't, maybe they are lucky or maybe they even just say that. I saw exactly what you did. I go a lot less penetration at 400 or less noticeably less with the same bow, draw weigh and broad head. 

Also if you watch TV you see that.....the difference is the people on TV have to air the video so it's harder for than just typing it on a form. Granted you don't have to a pass through to kill a deer....again we see that too play out on TV as well. The arrows goes in about 8 inches and then flops out as the deer runs off.....but they still get it. 

Of course the same people here will say they stink, shoot 50 pounds of draw weight or take bad shots but not everyone is as good as they are. :wink:

My point is there is a WIDE range of what will work but 2 things always get me fired up when I read these posts. 1) is when people try to act as if there is no penetration loss with light(er) arrows and 2) there is NO benefit to heaver arrows. 

Both of those are false...…..they may NOT be "beneficial" to them but they may be to others. Not understanding shows a lack of bowhunting knowledge IMO.....or just a "my way is best attitude" because it works for me...…...lol


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## deadquiet (Jan 25, 2005)

ARnut31 said:


> Who really gives a crap about how heavy of an arrow someone else shoots?


I sure don't.....but I still like to be honest about archery basics and people that try to act as if the don't exist. Know the facts and then use em' to optimize your setup.....but I don't like it when they try to re-write physics or act as if the rules don't apply. It confuses people.


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## BDHUNTR (May 24, 2003)

deadquiet said:


> My theory on that is maybe they have, maybe they haven't, maybe they are lucky or maybe they even just say that. I saw exactly what you did. I go a lot less penetration at 400 or less noticeably less with the same bow, draw weigh and broad head.
> 
> Also if you watch TV you see that.....the difference is the people on TV have to air the video so it's harder for than just typing it on a form. Granted you don't have to a pass through to kill a deer....again we see that too play out on TV as well. The arrows goes in about 8 inches and then flops out as the deer runs off.....but they still get it.
> 
> ...


I rarely see TV hunts in the type of areas I hunt. They tend to be on ag fields with strips of timber without a lot of undergrowth. That, and they have scads of folks helping them track, etc. 

I'm on my own 95% of the time. I arrow a deer in September through October, it may run 20-30 yards and disappear. I'd better have a good blood trail to follow. And unlike TV hunts, they don't have the worry about a nice buck or fat doe making it 300+ yards (or less) onto adjoining tracts owned by folks who don't cotton to hunting and don't allow you to track and retrieve your game.


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## enewman (Jun 5, 2007)

iceman14 said:


> Whitetail scapulas aren’t stopping anything. Joint, yeah that’s a different story. The only reason people go heavy is because they must enjoy tinkering with arrows or got brainwashed by a “dr”. I’ll be under 450 forever just because of the nonsense on here. I don’t really care if guys want to shoot 600+ grain arrows, whatever floats your boat. But it’s completely unnecessary.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Maybe you are the one that is brain washed. Haha. It’s so funny that every time anyone talks about a heavy arrow dr ashby’s Name is brought up. Pretty pathetic on your side. In your words “I’ll be under 450 forever just because of the nonsense on here” haha. You sound like a Jr high girl. 

Some people like the science behind it. Some don’t. You are one that dosent. That is fine, but know reason to talk crap. 

To the op. You don’t need 650gr arrow for whitetail. Yes you can kill all day long with 400gr arrows. We all have done it. We also see lots of deer shot with bad penetration. You must ask why. Let’s look at a few things. Let’s use iceman14 as an example. He shoots a 450gr arrow. What he didn’t say is at what draw weight, what draw length or what bow. So let’s just say he’s a 29” Draw at 70 lbs. I’m a 26.5 Draw at 65 lbs. so if we where shooting the same arrow. His penetration abilty is better then mine. Just due to velocity lost. This is something most people that brag about what they can due with a light arrow never thinks or wants to talk about. Or it could be the ignorance to this information. Now the next question is why do we see so many tv shows that have no passthrough. Most are shooting arrows in the 400 to 450 range. So, why the problem. Most generally incorrect broadhead for that set up. There are lots of things people should look at when building a penetration system. People with long draw and high draw weight don’t have to look at it as hard as people with less weight and short draw. 

Heavy arrows are not for all. It never will be. But the only reason an heavy arrow is ever a problem is when you reach a point you no longer like the trajectory you have.


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## enewman (Jun 5, 2007)

deadquiet said:


> I sure don't.....but I still like to be honest about archery basics and people that try to act as if the don't exist. Know the facts and then use em' to optimize your setup.....but I don't like it when they try to re-write physics or act as if the rules don't apply. It confuses people.



This. ^^^^^^


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## enewman (Jun 5, 2007)

deadquiet said:


> My theory on that is maybe they have, maybe they haven't, maybe they are lucky or maybe they even just say that. I saw exactly what you did. I go a lot less penetration at 400 or less noticeably less with the same bow, draw weigh and broad head.
> 
> Also if you watch TV you see that.....the difference is the people on TV have to air the video so it's harder for than just typing it on a form. Granted you don't have to a pass through to kill a deer....again we see that too play out on TV as well. The arrows goes in about 8 inches and then flops out as the deer runs off.....but they still get it.
> 
> ...


On a roll this morning. This ^^^^^^^^


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## jaximus (Feb 23, 2015)

deadquiet said:


> My theory on that is maybe they have, maybe they haven't, maybe they are lucky or maybe they even just say that. I saw exactly what you did. I go a lot less penetration at 400 or less noticeably less with the same bow, draw weigh and broad head.
> 
> Also if you watch TV you see that.....the difference is the people on TV have to air the video so it's harder for than just typing it on a form. Granted you don't have to a pass through to kill a deer....again we see that too play out on TV as well. The arrows goes in about 8 inches and then flops out as the deer runs off.....but they still get it.
> 
> ...


i agree here. there is a wide range of what will work, theres no denying that. each end of the spectrum has tradeoffs in terms of speed/trajectory/noise/penetration. everyone must determine what they are personally willing to give up in order to gain. i find myself somewhere in the middle where im compromising a little of everything to gain a little of everything. 

i consider my bows energy pretty average, 29" 60# and 330ibo. my DL is a little longer so i can get away with lighter limbs than the shorter draw guys and get the same energy. i picked a quiet vibe free bow to begin with, so i dont need arrow weight to absorb extra energy. 

theres also other things to consider. theres a certain weight range you can reach with what i consider standard shafts and changing the head or the components. its hard to get to 650 with 100gr heads without a pile of brass for the insert. that gets annoying and expensive. you can use heavier heads, but then you lose adaptability if you wanted to use mechs for turkeys or your bow for things other than deer. 

so theres lots to consider when looking at arrow weight for eastern whitetails. to me, the overall benefits of moderation are much more advantageous than the tradeoffs at either end of the spectrum. but that it to my overall hunting style with my bow specs/bow choice. give me something in the 450-500gr range for balanced performance.


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## Brettski7 (Sep 13, 2017)

bow_hunter44 said:


> Is 400 grains enough to kill a north east whitetail? Yes. But the argument that comes to mind is that there is no such thing as 'too dead', but there is certainly such a thing as 'not dead enough'! Can you kill a deer with a .243? Sure. Is a .270 a better choice. Absolutely.


Dead is dead. There is no such thing as dead enough or not dead enough. Lol


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## enewman (Jun 5, 2007)

Brettski7 said:


> Dead is dead. There is. I such thing as dead enough or not dead enough. Lol
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I like deader lol


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## Brettski7 (Sep 13, 2017)

KMiha said:


> Because I can. Why on earth do you care?
> 
> People don’t miss because of how fast or how slow their arrow is. People miss because they made bad shots. I’ve seen people miss with crossbows that shoot well over 300 FPS.


This is only somewhat accurate. I missed a deer at 40 yards. Placed perfect shot. Deer ducked the arrow, probably cut a hair off its back. Bow was only shooting around 250-255 at the time. My new bow however shoots little over 290 and bout to bump that up some. If I had made that same shot with new bow I’d have dead deer. Sorry but speed absolutely makes a difference. 


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## Brettski7 (Sep 13, 2017)

enewman said:


> I like deader lol


Sorry had to fix my post but glad you knew what I meant lol. 


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## roosiebull (Oct 3, 2010)

deadquiet said:


> My theory on that is maybe they have, maybe they haven't, maybe they are lucky or maybe they even just say that. I saw exactly what you did. I go a lot less penetration at 400 or less noticeably less with the same bow, draw weigh and broad head.
> 
> Also if you watch TV you see that.....the difference is the people on TV have to air the video so it's harder for than just typing it on a form. Granted you don't have to a pass through to kill a deer....again we see that too play out on TV as well. The arrows goes in about 8 inches and then flops out as the deer runs off.....but they still get it.
> 
> ...


I thought this thread had some entertainment value at least.. if I was new here, and read this thread, it would seem that light arrows were used only by 15 yr old girls, due to the maturity level, then would give them a pass because I would be impressed how many teenage girls were passionate about archery hunting:wink:


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## enewman (Jun 5, 2007)

Brettski7 said:


> Sorry had to fix my post but glad you knew what I meant lol.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Haha. Just enjoying another great morning. Have a good one.


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## roosiebull (Oct 3, 2010)

Brettski7 said:


> This is only somewhat accurate. I missed a deer at 40 yards. Placed perfect shot. Deer ducked the arrow, probably cut a hair off its back. Bow was only shooting around 250-255 at the time. My new bow however shoots little over 290 and bout to bump that up some. If I had made that same shot with new bow I’d have dead deer. Sorry but speed absolutely makes a difference.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


you blame a poor yardage estimation on the arrow rather than yourself? Haha..


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## Brettski7 (Sep 13, 2017)

roosiebull said:


> you blame a poor yardage estimation on the arrow rather than yourself? Haha..


You assume something you know nothing about. You disregard where I said he ducked the arrow. Had he not it would have hit right where I placed the pin. I knew the yardage. 

But go ahead and keep making yourself look dumb because you can’t comprehend what you read. 


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## plecavalier (Jan 10, 2008)

Blade1970 said:


> I know I will get some crap for posting this. Just a little feedback. I have bow hunted every single year since 85 and have harvested over 300 dear because I live on a farm with a crop damage stamp. My old bow shot 302 fps and I used a gold tip at 8.2 grains per inch with spitfire tips (100 grain) and since I hunt on the ground I always get a straight pass through on a deer. I see so many new hunters going with much heavier arrows. Almost all the misses in archery is due to the drop of the arrow and yet it seems like the new trend is to hunt with these heavy arrows. Mine goes stright through sometimes 30-40 yrds past where I hit the deer. Did I miss something in the last few years for the heavy arrow thing?


Guys shooting controlled environments will never understand why there is a need for a 650gn arrow.

On the flip side, why is there a need to shoot a 400gn arrow? Do you need the speed? No. Looks like the same argument to me...what do you need so much speed for?


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## enewman (Jun 5, 2007)

plecavalier said:


> Guys shooting controlled environments will never understand why there is a need for a 650gn arrow.
> 
> On the flip side, why is there a need to shoot a 400gn arrow? Do you need the speed? No. Looks like the same argument to me...what do you need so much speed for?


Now now. You can’t flip the argument like that. You will cause confusion.


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## plecavalier (Jan 10, 2008)

Lol

20 years ago my Jennings split T flung arrows at 130-40fps and killed deer dead no problem. Back then we even took 80+ yard shots, no rangefinder. Yet somehow ppl here are implying I'm insane to shoot at less that what? 250? Haha.

What do you need that speed for? One would say it's almost... cheating.


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## KSQ2 (Oct 10, 2007)

enewman said:


> Maybe you are the one that is brain washed. Haha. It’s so funny that every time anyone talks about a heavy arrow dr ashby’s Name is brought up. Pretty pathetic on your side. In your words “I’ll be under 450 forever just because of the nonsense on here” haha. You sound like a Jr high girl.
> 
> Some people like the science behind it. Some don’t. You are one that dosent. That is fine, but know reason to talk crap.
> 
> ...


Good post, I should probably have said I shoot my 670 gr arrow out of a 31.5” draw bow at 62#. I’m not telling anybody to shoot an arrow like mine, the reason I shoot it is NOT penetration or performance, it’s a QUIET shot. A deer will duck a 295 FPS arrow just like they’ll duck a 205 FPS arrow.


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## loujo61 (Apr 29, 2005)

plecavalier said:


> Lol
> 
> 20 years ago my Jennings split T flung arrows at 130-40fps and killed deer dead no problem. Back then we even took 80+ yard shots, no rangefinder. Yet somehow ppl here are implying I'm insane to shoot at less that what? 250? Haha.
> 
> What do you need that speed for? One would say it's almost... cheating.


There's no sane reason to shoot slow at Whitetails

Speed is needed to produce energy.


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## copterdoc (Oct 9, 2005)

KSQ2 said:


> ....A deer will duck a 295 FPS arrow just like they’ll duck a 205 FPS arrow.


Inside of 20 yards, a deer can easily duck a 205 FPS arrow. But it physically cannot duck a 295 FPS arrow. 
No deer has ever, or will ever duck a 295 FPS arrow inside of 20 yards. If one did, it was already moving before the arrow left the string.

However, beyond 30 yards, even 400 FPS isn't fast enough.


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## plecavalier (Jan 10, 2008)

loujo61 said:


> There's no sane reason to shoot slow at Whitetails
> 
> Speed is needed to produce energy.


One could almost imply speed is needed to make up for skill since you can create the more energy with weight. How is it I don't need that speed and you do?


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## bow_hunter44 (Apr 20, 2007)

copterdoc said:


> Inside of 20 yards, a deer can easily duck a 205 FPS arrow. But it physically cannot duck a 295 FPS arrow.
> No deer has ever, or will ever duck a 295 FPS arrow inside of 20 yards. If one did, it was already moving before the arrow left the string.
> 
> However, beyond 30 yards, even 400 FPS isn't fast enough.


This arrow wasn't 295 fps, but it was going 275 fps and this impala ducked a LONG way. It ducked enough to make me skeptical of the' physically cannot duck' duck statement. They, impala and white tail, can certainly duck enough to change a killing shot into a nightmare, I expect at 295 fps. I assume you have the math to back up the 'physically cannot' statement?


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## loujo61 (Apr 29, 2005)

plecavalier said:


> One could almost imply speed is needed to make up for skill since you can create the more energy with weight. How is it I don't need that speed and you do?


One could also imply that an extra half ounce of arrow can break large bones... I don't want to have to guess whether the deer i'm shooting at is 20 or 25 yards, with a 650 grain arrow that mistake of 5 yards even at close distances could make a substantial difference on impact. No thanks


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## copterdoc (Oct 9, 2005)

bow_hunter44 said:


> This arrow wasn't 295 fps, but it was going 275 fps and this impala ducked a LONG way. It ducked enough to make me skeptical of the' physically cannot duck' duck statement. They, impala and white tail, can certainly duck enough to change a killing shot into a nightmare, I expect at 295 fps. I assume you have the math to back up the 'physically cannot' statement?


 At 295 FPS, the arrow reaches a 20 yard target in 0.2 seconds.
A deer has a reaction time of about 0.15 seconds.

Gravity cannot accelerate the deer's body towards the ground fast enough, in only 0.05 seconds, to move it out of the path of the arrow.


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## roosiebull (Oct 3, 2010)

Brettski7 said:


> You assume something you know nothing about. You disregard where I said he ducked the arrow. Had he not it would have hit right where I placed the pin. I knew the yardage.
> 
> But go ahead and keep making yourself look dumb because you can’t comprehend what you read.
> 
> ...


 haha... oh yeah, a louder and faster bow would have helped.... and a couple doses of midol :wink:


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## plecavalier (Jan 10, 2008)

copterdoc said:


> At 295 FPS, the arrow reaches a 20 yard target in 0.2 seconds.
> A deer has a reaction time of about 0.15 seconds.
> 
> Gravity cannot accelerate the deer's body towards the ground fast enough, in only 0.05 seconds, to move it out of the path of the arrow.


lol. All deer react at 0.15. simple enough. Therefore anything faster is like shooting fish in a barrel I guess!


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## copterdoc (Oct 9, 2005)

plecavalier said:


> lol. All deer react at 0.15. simple enough. Therefore anything faster is like shooting fish in a barrel I guess!


It's a Physical limitation of the nervous system. That's how long it takes for the nervous system to respond to a stimulus.


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## rmscustom (Mar 7, 2011)

Shoot at a whitetail after the wi 9 day gun season and you will see some incredible gravity defying reaction times. Haha


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## Fortyneck (Oct 8, 2010)

I used to enjoy pizzing and moaning about the infinite nuances, perceived or otherwise, brought about by 1/2 oz. to 1/3 oz differences in arrow weight, but meh... maybe I'm losing my edge...

I like around five hundy grains...

Oh yeah, and turtles...


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## 3D Pinwheeler (Jan 29, 2007)

Whats speed of sound 1100fps or so
300fps or 200 fps in whitetail ranges is thousanths of seconds. Louder noise quicker reactions???
To say deer wont get out of the way of 300 fps is ridiculous. 
Watch crossbow shot deer reactions.


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## copterdoc (Oct 9, 2005)

A louder noise might make the reaction stronger, but it's Physically impossible to make it take place faster.


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## plecavalier (Jan 10, 2008)

copterdoc said:


> It's a Physical limitation of the nervous system. That's how long it takes for the nervous system to respond to a stimulus.


My point is you trying to beat that (and the speed of sound) is futile. Shoot the deer when it's the right opportunity aka work on hunting skills rather than arrow speed and you'll do better all round. Like I said, I don't feel I need the speed; I get close and wait for the right opportunity. If that doesn't happen I go home empty handed with a smile on my face, good memories and experience gained from studying my prey at close range. Some even call that dare I say, "hunting".


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## 1fast20xd (Nov 9, 2014)

I personally feel that 450+/- is the magic number for a 70lbs bow. Perfect blend of speed/penetration for deer


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## Fortyneck (Oct 8, 2010)

plecavalier said:


> My point is you trying to beat that (and the speed of sound) is futile. Shoot the deer when it's the right opportunity aka work on hunting skills rather than arrow speed and you'll do better all round. Like I said, I don't feel I need the speed; I get close and wait for the right opportunity. If that doesn't happen I go home empty handed with a smile on my face, good memories and experience gained from studying my prey at close range. Some even call that dare I say, "hunting".


^^^I like this too.^^^


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## copterdoc (Oct 9, 2005)

plecavalier said:


> My point is you trying to beat that (and the speed of sound) is futile..


No it is not futile.

It's actually very easy, as long as you limit your shot distance accordingly.


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## jaximus (Feb 23, 2015)

hmm, every single one of these arrow weight threads turn into a battle about deer ducking arrows. 

sure seems to be a correlation with bow noise. depending on the bows inherent sound and vibration (a concious choice we can make), we may need different arrow weights to deaden that sound. maybe we should focus on choosing bow systems that fit our hunting sytles best instead of arguing about weight? treestand whitetails under 40yds, you really dont need 70# limbs. then you may not need extra arrow mass to tame the noise.


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## Brettski7 (Sep 13, 2017)

roosiebull said:


> haha... oh yeah, a louder and faster bow would have helped.... and a couple doses of midol :wink:


Yep your completely ignorant. Lol. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## plecavalier (Jan 10, 2008)

copterdoc said:


> No it is not futile.
> 
> It's actually very easy, as long as you limit your shot distance accordingly.


Okay okay. So you need speed to shoot longer ranges because for some reason your rangefinder might mislead you but now your limiting your range to beat an alert deer by 15 hundreds....hm. I dunno man. I've argued a ton on here and I'm not seeing the need to argue these two contradicting points.

Again shoot at the right time and all this speed light arrow stuff is moot.


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## copterdoc (Oct 9, 2005)

plecavalier said:


> Okay okay. So you need speed to shoot longer ranges because for some reason your rangefinder might mislead you but now your limiting your range to beat an alert deer by 15 hundreds....hm. I dunno man. I've argued a ton on here and I'm not seeing the need to argue these two contradicting points.
> 
> Again shoot at the right time and all this speed light arrow stuff is moot.


If your arrow reaches the deer in less than 0.2 seconds, there is nothing *IT* can do to change the outcome.
That's a fact, and it matters.

Your arrow can't reach a 30 yard target in less than 0.2 seconds.


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## leoncrandall74 (Apr 9, 2017)

1fast20xd said:


> I personally feel that 450+/- is the magic number for a 70lbs bow. Perfect blend of speed/penetration for deer


Agreed imo a 450-500gr arrow is ideal for deer. I use a 480 gr arrow and for me it's the best of all worlds. Speed, sound and penetration. It's all give and take tho

Sent from my SM-G532M using Tapatalk


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## rmscustom (Mar 7, 2011)

leoncrandall74 said:


> Agreed imo a 450-500gr arrow is ideal for deer. I use a 480 gr arrow and for me it's the best of all worlds. Speed, sound and penetration. It's all give and take tho
> 
> Sent from my SM-G532M using Tapatalk


There is no room for that type of common sense in this thread!


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## plecavalier (Jan 10, 2008)

copterdoc said:


> If your arrow reaches the deer in less than 0.2 seconds, there is nothing *IT* can do to change the outcome.
> That's a fact, and it matters.
> 
> Your arrow can't reach a 30 yard target in less than 0.2 seconds.


I don't need it to, I shoot when there is a good opportunity. Now what happens when you bank on that 1.5 millisecond gap and the deer starts moving before you release but not enough for you to stop the shot? Oops. Now where is the arrow going to hit? Your guess is as good as mine but if you hit a bone how's that featherweight arrow going to do? Especially with that huge (and thin) mechanical. Oh boy. Not shooting fish in a barrel anymore I guess.

But that's true, who can't stop a shot sequence in less than 1.5 milliseconds. No problem right? I guess that's what I'll do from now on. Sounds like a safe plan.


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## KSQ2 (Oct 10, 2007)

copterdoc said:


> Inside of 20 yards, a deer can easily duck a 205 FPS arrow. But it physically cannot duck a 295 FPS arrow.
> No deer has ever, or will ever duck a 295 FPS arrow inside of 20 yards. If one did, it was already moving before the arrow left the string.
> 
> However, beyond 30 yards, even 400 FPS isn't fast enough.


???


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## hunterhewi (Jun 12, 2010)

rmscustom said:


> There is no room for that type of common sense in this thread!


So his opinion is common sense because he dont shoot a heavy arrow, but my opinion, according to this thread is a bunch of BS crap because i choose to shoot 600 grain arrows that suit MY needs as far as speed, sound, and penetration.....makes sense to me


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## Gruder (Feb 19, 2016)

Hey I'm Hoping for 48-50 lbs, light arrow, super sharp broadhead. It's all I'll be able to do.
If you can argue about it consider yourself lucky


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## hunterhewi (Jun 12, 2010)

Who the hell cares what weight each person shoots. Or who cares what the “need” is for 650 grains. If u dont like the huge arching trajectory that most on here think happens then shoot your 400 grain arrows at 300 fps but ill take my 600 grains at 265-270 fps. You guys on here act like its impossible to kill a deer without aiming at its knees so it drops into to the arrow. Sorry but ive killed around 30 deer with the bow since 07 and never, i repeat NEVER had one duck the string. Even killing a doe at 56 yards last year on full alert after missing at 30.


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## hunterhewi (Jun 12, 2010)

Gruder said:


> Hey I'm Hoping for 48-50 lbs, light arrow, super sharp broadhead. It's all I'll be able to do.
> If you can argue about it consider yourself lucky
> View attachment 6765861


At 50lbs id be shooting 10gpp if it was me. So 500 grains which isnt light for 50 lbs


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## rmscustom (Mar 7, 2011)

hunterhewi said:


> So his opinion is common sense because he dont shoot a heavy arrow, but my opinion, according to this thread is a bunch of BS crap because i choose to shoot 600 grain arrows that suit MY needs as far as speed, sound, and penetration.....makes sense to me



Maybe my humor didn’t come across. You wanna shoot a heavy arrow that’s fine with me. If you wanna shoot a 300gr arrow I really don’t care. 
If you wanna guess at deers reaction time and state it as fact that a 290fps arrow will kill a deer dead while a 250fps will clean miss it I’ll start to second guess your common sense. Haha


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## hunterhewi (Jun 12, 2010)

rmscustom said:


> Maybe my humor didn’t come across. You wanna shoot a heavy arrow that’s fine with me. If you wanna shoot a 300gr arrow I really don’t care.
> If you wanna guess at deers reaction time and state it as fact that a 290fps arrow will kill a deer dead while a 250fps will clean miss it I’ll start to second guess your common sense. Haha


Exactly what im saying. According to you guys on here its impossible to kill a deer with 250 fps arrows smfh.... that doe at 56 yards was on full alert staring at watching me slowly grab and nock another arrow after i missed her at 30 because i caught a small branch. She never budged when my bow went off the entire time that arrow wend 56 yards into heart. Idk how you guys kill deer at all with them ducking so badly


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## tack09 (Feb 13, 2009)

1fast20xd said:


> I personally feel that 450+/- is the magic number for a 70lbs bow. Perfect blend of speed/penetration for deer


I'm curious to know what you feel to be the magic number for a 60lb bow? less-same-heavier
Not trying to be a smart ass. Just like to know others opinion.


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## hunterhewi (Jun 12, 2010)

Guess we should all stop bow hunting and pick up rifles. But even then idk that 2500fps is fast enogh for that deer not to duck. Hell maybe we should stop hunting since all we can do on here is say my way or the highway. What i do is right and what you do is stupid. I try to refrain from these posts, but the ignorant and stupid bickering back and forth over someone elses arrow weight just shows the kinda world we live in i suppose.


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## copterdoc (Oct 9, 2005)

rmscustom said:


> ....If you wanna guess at deers reaction time and state it as fact that a 290fps arrow will kill a deer dead while a 250fps will clean miss.......


That's a straw man argument.

I never said that.


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## 1simplemann (Nov 22, 2018)

copterdoc said:


> Because you are giving up 80 FPS for *no reason*.
> 
> You can't get more than 100% penetration.
> 
> ...


Copter doc, While I'm not shooting 190fps, I am shooting 650 gr. at 250fps. I have found that it increases my opportunities. I shoot them from all angles. Many times in the past I waited for the perfect shot angles that never materialized. Some of those deer haunt me! Now I just shoot them however they come in. I still wait for the best angle they will give but if I feel it's not going to happen then I shoot. Since I've gone to the heavy arrow setup, I've had impressive results. The "jump the string" scenario has never happened. The arrow hits where I'm aiming and usually ends up in the dirt w/ 2 exceptions. I spine shot an elk. and this year I shot a big 10pt thru the ball joint of his shoulder. The arrow exited but didn't pass thru. He went 40 yds. The rest have been in the dirt. I started "heavy" in 1980 and went lighter and lighter thru the years. I lost too many critters in the early 2000's with the light set up. I took a hard look at my set up and what I had changed. Now I'm back heavy and liking it. I'll be heavy forever. I say shoot what you want and I'll shoot what I want. Since the majority of everything I've ever shot has been 30 yds and under I don't feel like I'm giving up a thing. Plus the bow is so dang quiet! Try it, you might like it! So God bless and have a good day


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## hunterhewi (Jun 12, 2010)

tack09 said:


> I'm curious to know what you feel to be the magic number for a 60lb bow? less-same-heavier
> Not trying to be a smart ass. Just like to know others opinion.


For me, imo, i like around 500-550 grains for a 60 lbb bow. Add another 100 for 70 lbs. that puts me in the speed range I, let me repeat that, I want to be. Not what the professionals on AT tell me i need to be to kill deer. I used to play the speed game. 400 grains at 80lbs. I can tell u right now thatll never happen again. For me there is NO benefit from a lightweight setup. If others want to use it, fine and dandy. Im not goin to tell them they are wrong. No different than the poundage threads that get beat to death on here.


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## 1simplemann (Nov 22, 2018)

dtrkyman said:


> https://youtu.be/mLr2Uyno8Kg
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Aron, Do you know the guys set up? I would be willing to bet it wasn't a 650 gr arrow w/ a 2 blade cut on contact. If it was that's a dead deer. He missed by 1-2" at most. That's why I shoot 650 gr because it's very easy to miss by that margin in a hunting scenario.


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## mn5503 (Feb 21, 2006)

leoncrandall74 said:


> Never known a time when it wasn't heavy enough
> 
> Sent from my SM-G532M using Tapatalk


450g is considered "light" by MANY here today....


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## Beendare (Jan 31, 2006)

Guys get so wrapped up over this...and the "Mine is best" commentary here is overwhelming.

*I doubt anyone wants to hear a common sense answer.....*

Reasons to use a very heavy 650 gr arrow; 
IF you are shooting very short shots [25yds and under] the poor trajectory of that very heavy arrow is not a factor. Plus it will make your bow whisper quiet.

Now if you are shooting longer shots in the 40 and 50 yd range....now the lower noise level of the heavier arrow is a non factor....and the trajectory loss becomes an issue with hitting what you are aiming at. 

*BEST ADVICE;* IME, A guy is better served using a middle of the road setup and staying away from the extremes of EFOC, very heavy...or very light arrows, etc. Most guys are best served with a 450gr-550gr arrow as this will give you the best of all worlds.


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## frog gigger (May 4, 2007)

hunterhewi said:


> At 50lbs id be shooting 10gpp if it was me. So 500 grains which isnt light for 50 lbs


That's me. 50#, 475-525 grains, coc head. 

Speed has never concerned me in a hunting shaft.
Zipped right through my last kill from 42 yds.


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## copterdoc (Oct 9, 2005)

1simplemann said:


> Copter doc, While I'm not shooting 190fps, I am shooting 650 gr. at 250fps. I have found that it increases my opportunities. I shoot them from all angles. Many times in the past I waited for the perfect shot angles that never materialized. Some of those deer haunt me! Now I just shoot them however they come in. I still wait for the best angle they will give but if I feel it's not going to happen then I shoot. Since I've gone to the heavy arrow setup, I've had impressive results. The "jump the string" scenario has never happened. The arrow hits where I'm aiming and usually ends up in the dirt w/ 2 exceptions. I spine shot an elk. and this year I shot a big 10pt thru the ball joint of his shoulder. The arrow exited but didn't pass thru. He went 40 yds. The rest have been in the dirt. I started "heavy" in 1980 and went lighter and lighter thru the years. I lost too many critters in the early 2000's with the light set up. I took a hard look at my set up and what I had changed. Now I'm back heavy and liking it. I'll be heavy forever. I say shoot what you want and I'll shoot what I want. Since the majority of everything I've ever shot has been 30 yds and under I don't feel like I'm giving up a thing. Plus the bow is so dang quiet! Try it, you might like it! So God bless and have a good day


 420 grains is not a lightweight arrow for Whitetails.

I've certainly tried shooting a heavier setup, and a lighter setup.
And I've both recovered and lost deer that I hit with both.

I also used to think that I could tell when a deer wasn't alert, and was "safe" to shoot at with my heavy, slow, arrow coming from my whisper quiet bow.

Today, I've found a middle ground that works best for the Whitetails that I hunt. 
They are pressured, and jumpy. I hunt thick timber, from a tree stand.

And I pick the shot opportunities that give me a clear lane, to a broadside rib cage less than 30 yards away. 
I know that my 420 grain, 270 FPS arrow with a 1.5" mechanical head is going to eat dirt on the other side.

I also know that between 17 and 30 yards, there's a good chance that the deer could react and change where my arrow hits. 
So, I'm reluctant to take those shots, and I make sure that they aren't looking in my direction if I decide to shoot.

But inside of 17 yards? I don't have to worry about what state of mind they might be in.
There's nothing they can do.


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## leoncrandall74 (Apr 9, 2017)

mn5503 said:


> 450g is considered "light" by MANY here today....


Correct it is.. and as I said I've never seen where a 450 gr arrow wasn't heavy enough for a whitetail. 

Sent from my SM-G532M using Tapatalk


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## Gruder (Feb 19, 2016)

frog gigger said:


> That's me. 50#, 475-525 grains, coc head.
> 
> Speed has never concerned me in a hunting shaft.
> Zipped right through my last kill from 42 yds.


I'm sure I'll be right there, maybe 450-480 and keep my shots under 30


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## enewman (Jun 5, 2007)

Beendare said:


> Guys get so wrapped up over this...and the "Mine is best" commentary here is overwhelming.
> 
> *I doubt anyone wants to hear a common sense answer.....*
> 
> ...


But what if I can build efoc arrows and still be under 550.


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## catkinson (Jul 17, 2007)

*Me too*



Gruder said:


> Hey I'm Hoping for 48-50 lbs, light arrow, super sharp broadhead. It's all I'll be able to do.
> If you can argue about it consider yourself lucky
> View attachment 6765861


 My sentiments exactly brother !!


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## cold finger (Mar 6, 2016)

Many deer have been hit and NOT recovered with every conceivable arrow weight and speed . The slower and noisier the bow/arrow combination the more likely a deer will "duck" the arrow . Whitetails are lightning quick and we do not know exactly what each deer will do when we release the arrow. Bad hits do happen no matter how fast an arrow leaves a bow . The heavier/slower vs. lighter/faster argument has went on forever. I recently heard a story about a moose that was shot with a fairly light traditional bow and the arrow passed completely thru the rib cage. I also know of deer shot at with heavy (75-80lb.) compounds and extreme arrow speed that were missed or hit and not recovered . I just watched a video of deer ducking crossbow bolts at an average of 30 yards . The deer in the video were calm, feeding and not "jumpy" or alert. Most crossbows today are faster than our compound bow & arrow combinations . My current set up probably falls into the average weight/speed for a compound , but If I could shoot an 800gr. arrow at 800fps with a 4 blade 2 inch cut broadhead ACCURATELY I would , not because It is necessary but because there is no such thing as to much arrow weight/speed/kenetic energy and tissue damage ,IMO . Dr Ashby's data and info on arrow/broadhead penetration is very interesting also .


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## deadquiet (Jan 25, 2005)

mn5503 said:


> 450g is considered "light" by MANY here today....


????? Not by the educated ones. You read ALL kinds of stuff here......if you are crazy enough to listen. But look 450 is light or it is heavy that's probably really confusing you right? 

That's why the people that talk about GPP are the ones you really want to listen to. If I shoot a 80 pound bow 450 grains is 5.6 GPP so it is light. If a lady shoot's the same arrow off her 43 pound bow it heavy but it's the same weight. 

How much energy is transferred to the arrow depends on the ratio between draw weight & arrow weight....that's the key. Tossing around abstract numbers like 450 or any number is pointless without all the info if you really get down to it.


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## deadquiet (Jan 25, 2005)

cold finger said:


> Many deer have been hit and NOT recovered with every conceivable arrow weight and speed . The slower and noisier the bow/arrow combination the more likely a deer will "duck" the arrow . Whitetails are lightning quick and we do not know exactly what each deer will do when we release the arrow. Bad hits do happen no matter how fast an arrow leaves a bow . The heavier/slower vs. lighter/faster argument has went on forever. I recently heard a story about a moose that was shot with a fairly light traditional bow and the arrow passed completely thru the rib cage. I also know of deer shot at with heavy (75-80lb.) compounds and extreme arrow speed that were missed or hit and not recovered . I just watched a video of deer ducking crossbow bolts at an average of 30 yards . The deer in the video were calm, feeding and not "jumpy" or alert. Most crossbows today are faster than our compound bow & arrow combinations . My current set up probably falls into the average weight/speed for a compound , but If I could shoot an 800gr. arrow at 800fps with a 4 blade 2 inch cut broadhead ACCURATELY I would , not because It is necessary but because there is no such thing as to much arrow weight/speed/kenetic energy and tissue damage ,IMO . Dr Ashby's data and info on arrow/broadhead penetration is very interesting also .


Loud & fast is just as bad as slow and noisy too. I prefer super quiet and then speed doesn't matter...….fast or slow. It's just easier to get a bow super quiet if you don't care if it's real fast. Getting a really fast arrow speed AND a bow quiet isn't as easy and by default you'll never get it as quiet as the same bow shooting slower...... IF that matters to you.


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## shootstraight (Apr 28, 2005)

I personally don’t think any arrow is too heavy. For the guys saying 420 is not a light arrow, well back in the days of aluminum arrows it would have been light. Many arrows were in the 500+ grain area and we hardly ever had pass through issues. According to some of you guys it’s amazing that anyone back then harvested deer at all. 

650 grain isn’t needed but I’d much rather shoot that weight than 350.


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## plecavalier (Jan 10, 2008)

deadquiet said:


> ????? Not by the educated ones. You read ALL kinds of stuff here......if you are crazy enough to listen. But look 450 is light or it is heavy that's probably really confusing you right?
> 
> That's why the people that talk about GPP are the ones you really want to listen to. If I shoot a 80 pound bow 450 grains is 5.6 GPP so it is light. If a lady shoot's the same arrow off her 43 pound bow it heavy but it's the same weight.
> 
> How much energy is transferred to the arrow depends on the ratio between draw weight & arrow weight....that's the key. Tossing around abstract numbers like 450 or any number is pointless without all the info if you really get down to it.


It's also pointless if all you think that matters is speed. If that's the main focus we might as well only talk strictly about weight numbers aka 350 but oh wait that's at 70# so I guess is still matters...


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## catkinson (Jul 17, 2007)

Aim low


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## shootstraight (Apr 28, 2005)

deadquiet said:


> I prefer super quiet and then speed doesn't matter...….fast or slow..


I would disagree with this statement! Sound travels much faster than any arrow, ANY sound. Bows make noise no matter how quiet. Shooting a deer that is aware of you presence (even if they haven’t seen you) is the whole reason they jump the string. If it’s relaxed and unaware of you then a louder bow slow or fast will do the job.


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## plecavalier (Jan 10, 2008)

shootstraight said:


> I would disagree with this statement! Sound travels much faster than any arrow, ANY sound. Bows make noise no matter how quiet. Shooting a deer that is aware of you presence (even if they haven’t seen you) is the whole reason they jump the string. If it’s relaxed and unaware of you then a louder bow slow or fast will do the job.


No. The type of sound really matters. Sound will always get there at least three times as fast as the arrow since the fastest arrow is ~340 and sound is 1100. A thwack vs a thumb or ting of metal anything less natural is a big problem.

What's ridiculous is trying to get the arrow there before the sound. Even a shotgun can fail to do that. Speed of the arrow isn't going to change a thing. Type of sound and when the shot is taken will.


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## KSQ2 (Oct 10, 2007)

shootstraight said:


> I would disagree with this statement! Sound travels much faster than any arrow, ANY sound. Bows make noise no matter how quiet. Shooting a deer that is aware of you presence (even if they haven’t seen you) is the whole reason they jump the string. If it’s relaxed and unaware of you then a louder bow slow or fast will do the job.


I’ve had multiple deer jump the string that had no idea I was there. A quiet shot isn’t without sound, it just doesn’t sound as abrasive.


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## leoncrandall74 (Apr 9, 2017)

deadquiet said:


> ????? Not by the educated ones. You read ALL kinds of stuff here......if you are crazy enough to listen. But look 450 is light or it is heavy that's probably really confusing you right?
> 
> That's why the people that talk about GPP are the ones you really want to listen to. If I shoot a 80 pound bow 450 grains is 5.6 GPP so it is light. If a lady shoot's the same arrow off her 43 pound bow it heavy but it's the same weight.
> 
> How much energy is transferred to the arrow depends on the ratio between draw weight & arrow weight....that's the key. Tossing around abstract numbers like 450 or any number is pointless without all the info if you really get down to it.


You are absolutely correct. However the "450" was in reference to a 450g arrow for a 70# draw comment much earlier... which is about 6.4gpp still plenty heavy for a whitetail. I don't hunt anything bigger than a whitetail or anything that will eat me so don't see the need to go heavy. I find my 480g, 7.4gpp arrows to be a very happy medium for my setup. 


Sent from my SM-G532M using Tapatalk


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## nightvision (Aug 30, 2011)

Brettski7 said:


> Yep your completely ignorant. Lol.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



You’re. Just helping you out a little.


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## leoncrandall74 (Apr 9, 2017)

shootstraight said:


> I would disagree with this statement! Sound travels much faster than any arrow, ANY sound. Bows make noise no matter how quiet. Shooting a deer that is aware of you presence (even if they haven’t seen you) is the whole reason they jump the string. If it’s relaxed and unaware of you then a louder bow slow or fast will do the job.


I'd take quiet over fast any day

Sent from my SM-G532M using Tapatalk


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## LFM (Jan 10, 2004)

I find it Funny Not All Shoot a Bow that produces 220 FPS, Just because a Few Do Appears Most Here Assume All Do Shoot a Bow that is over 300 FPS! Yet some still shoot Recurves & Long Bows... My Bow is maybe 230 FPS I Never Shoot farther than maybe 30 yards... And I "PRACTICE" to know I can hit the target / spot I am aiming at. But on some occasions Some Hit a Bone and Not a Pass Thru and maybe why some "prefer" a "Heavy Arrow". I Continue to wonder why Some think we All Shoot a bow that can shoot an Arrow 300 FPS when older Bows cannot And why Each Archer has "Their" *Choice* of Equipment and yet few if any use the EXACT Same Bow, Arrow, Sight, Rest, BH ETC! Some just cannot get that! that as to why some Use a Heavy Arrow or Completely Different Equipment. Some Don't have the *$* to Afford The High End Equipment and yet Want to "BOWHUNT". So Again If It WORKS for Them *WHO Cares* what their Arrow Weights??? I Have wonder Why some Think Speed Is So Important but to Make Up for Poor Shooting Skills and doing their Due Diligence and Practice to Know their Performance of their Choice Of Equipment. So Stop Blasting other Archers because of their Choice of Equipment and Let them Bow Hunt! That is what is All About Not what You Think They Need or have to Use as to Any Piece of their Equipment Including Their Choice of their ARROW!
Should be No Concern of Any here that Think it is Wrong to use Said Weighted Arrow It is Just That SIMPLE!
We are ALL ARCHER Are We Not? As Long as It works that should be all some should Worry ABOUT! 
LFM


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## plecavalier (Jan 10, 2008)

Well, they've basicly stated that if they don't have 300 they'll miss. That even with a rangefinder! I guess that's why so animals are wounded (ouch that's hitting below the belt haha).


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## PALongbow (Mar 2, 2008)

The reason deer drop on TV is because they are taking 50-60 yard shots. The deer are simply reacting to the bow and arrow noise. Not sure why archery has become a long range game but it has for some reason. Maybe its because people forgot how and get close to the animals or perhaps the 'Got to get a deer' mentality comes into play. I shoot a 350 grain arrow with G5 100 grain Strikers, 58 pounds and my arrows have always gone through deer and planted in the dirt but then again my shots are inside 25 yards. I set up in such a way to get close to critters that I hunt. Put the arrow where its suppose to go and you'll be just fine.


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## SCFox (Dec 11, 2005)

nightvision said:


> Why does anyone care what someone else shoots? Why not question their arrows, bow, broadhead? Want to shoot logs? Go for it. Lightweight straws? Have at it.
> 
> Thought we were all on the same team.


Come on, man. This is AT. If you don’t shoot what I shoot, you’re wrong. Heavy/light arrows are stupid. You pull 70lbs? That’s stupid, etc. 

SCFox


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## Fortyneck (Oct 8, 2010)

SCFox said:


> Come on, man. This is AT. If you don’t shoot what I shoot, you’re wrong. Heavy/light arrows are stupid. You pull 70lbs? That’s stupid, etc.
> 
> SCFox


***


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## shootstraight (Apr 28, 2005)

plecavalier said:


> No. The type of sound really matters. Sound will always get there at least three times as fast as the arrow since the fastest arrow is ~340 and sound is 1100. A thwack vs a thumb or ting of metal anything less natural is a big problem.
> 
> What's ridiculous is trying to get the arrow there before the sound. Even a shotgun can fail to do that. Speed of the arrow isn't going to change a thing. Type of sound and when the shot is taken will.





KSQ2 said:


> I’ve had multiple deer jump the string that had no idea I was there. A quiet shot isn’t without sound, it just doesn’t sound as abrasive.


Just so we’re clear, my bow is shooting an amazing 240 fps (506 grain arrow), it is quite quiet. I’m not into speed, never have been. I’m not sure how old you guys are or if you hunted back in the 80’s or 90’s. If there is one thing that has improved dramatically from back then is how quiet bows have become. One thing that helped greatly back then was everyone used fairly heavy arrows. I’ve shot bows (Oneida Aeroforce) that were very loud on the shot, I killed a lot of deer with it. That bow sounded like a 22 rim fire when shot. Never had a deer jump the string but I only shoot relaxed deer. Ultimately I think we would all agree we want a bow as quiet as we can make it and shoot at deer that have no clue of our presence. 



leoncrandall74 said:


> I'd take quiet over fast any day
> 
> Sent from my SM-G532M using Tapatalk


I would agree, a quiet bow is very important but it is not the end all. My point was if shooting at alarmed deer, noise is still made and deer will hear it and respond by almost hitting the ground.


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## plecavalier (Jan 10, 2008)

shootstraight said:


> Just so we’re clear, my bow is shooting an amazing 240 fps (506 grain arrow), it is quite quiet. I’m not into speed, never have been. I’m not sure how old you guys are or if you hunted back in the 80’s or 90’s. If there is one thing that has improved dramatically from back then is how quiet bows have become. One thing that helped greatly back then was everyone used fairly heavy arrows. I’ve shot bows (Oneida Aeroforce) that were very loud on the shot, I killed a lot of deer with it. That bow sounded like a 22 rim fire when shot. Never had a deer jump the string but I only shoot relaxed deer. Ultimately I think we would all agree we want a bow as quiet as we can make it and shoot at deer that have no clue of our presence.
> 
> 
> 
> I would agree, a quiet bow is very important but it is not the end all. My point was if shooting at alarmed deer, noise is still made and deer will hear it and respond by almost hitting the ground.


Lol

My current bow...


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## cemorales (Oct 10, 2018)

Is there any truth in the concept that these heavier bows need the higher weigh arrows for stability? That could be the reason? the factory speed doesn't take any account of accuracy, right?


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## plecavalier (Jan 10, 2008)

cemorales said:


> Is there any truth in the concept that these heavier bows need the higher weigh arrows for stability? That could be the reason? the factory speed doesn't take any account of accuracy, right?


No absolutely not. If anything a heavier bow is more stable in the hand and less subject to influencing the arrow but that's pretty subtle stuff to begin with. That's where "forgiveness" comes from. Longer and heavier is more forgiving.

With the arrow though, I do believe it isn't so subtle. It's much less touchy in my experience.


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## Vcattleco (Jun 17, 2017)

This thread.


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## leoncrandall74 (Apr 9, 2017)

plecavalier said:


> Lol
> 
> My current bow...


Man I miss my Oneida!!

Sent from my SM-G532M using Tapatalk


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## plecavalier (Jan 10, 2008)

leoncrandall74 said:


> Man I miss my Oneida!!
> 
> Sent from my SM-G532M using Tapatalk


So much fun I can't bring myself to shoot anything else!


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## rmscustom (Mar 7, 2011)

plecavalier said:


> Lol
> 
> My current bow...


I killed some deer back in the day with one of those. It had a overdraw on it stretched to the max cause there was no cables to get in the way with some beaman hunter carbon arrows and wasp compression lock broadheads to ditch the weight of the outsert. Young and dumb, man them we’re the days. Haha


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## kzz1king (Jan 21, 2007)

plecavalier said:


> Lol
> 
> My current bow...


What rest is that? It looks familiar!


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## Beartraxx (Sep 22, 2018)

I've always wanted to try an Oneida bow. Beautiful! How do they shoot. I remember many years ago as a much younger bowhunter, being told they were loud. That was back in the 80s... I was shooting a darton sl50 then. Man I thought that thing was a barn burner! LOL


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## shootstraight (Apr 28, 2005)

plecavalier said:


> Lol
> 
> My current bow...


Lol, yeah that’s funny, they do still have a bit of a cult following. No one can argue about how smooth they are, that’s for sure.


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## hoyt fo life555 (Jan 31, 2005)

shootstraight said:


> I personally don’t think any arrow is too heavy. For the guys saying 420 is not a light arrow, well back in the days of aluminum arrows it would have been light. Many arrows were in the 500+ grain area and we hardly ever had pass through issues. According to some of you guys it’s amazing that anyone back then harvested deer at all.
> 
> 650 grain isn’t needed but I’d much rather shoot that weight than 350.


Are you shooting “ carp” ( solid glass) arrows at deer. I know they weigh a lot, and have seen they are not well suited for hunting deer. In fact it was a horrible out come. I believe there is such thing as to heavy, in fact I know there is.


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## shootstraight (Apr 28, 2005)

hoyt fo life555 said:


> Are you shooting “ carp” ( solid glass) arrows at deer. I know they weigh a lot, and have seen they are not well suited for hunting deer. In fact it was a horrible out come. I believe there is such thing as to heavy, in fact I know there is.


Look forward to your facts then.


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## enewman (Jun 5, 2007)

I personally believe that you should start at least around 7 gr. per lb. for 70lb. and at least 8.5 to 9 gr. per lb. for 60 lb. the 10.5 to 11 gr. per lb. on the 50lb. is a great starting point. Now, this not set in stone for me. I work around these numbers. At this time my arrows are around 7.7 for a 65lbs. bow.


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## loujo61 (Apr 29, 2005)

rmscustom said:


> I killed some deer back in the day with one of those. It had a overdraw on it stretched to the max cause there was no cables to get in the way with some beaman hunter carbon arrows and wasp compression lock broadheads to ditch the weight of the outsert. Young and dumb, man them we’re the days. Haha


No cables is a good thing


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## roosiebull (Oct 3, 2010)

Brettski7 said:


> Yep your completely ignorant. Lol.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


how so? share your wisdom and educate us! elaborate on your reply on how you would killed that buck with less arrow...


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## RavinHood (Sep 17, 2015)

Blade1970 said:


> I know I will get some crap for posting this. Just a little feedback. I have bow hunted every single year since 85 and have harvested over 300 dear because I live on a farm with a crop damage stamp. My old bow shot 302 fps and I used a gold tip at 8.2 grains per inch with spitfire tips (100 grain) and since I hunt on the ground I always get a straight pass through on a deer. I see so many new hunters going with much heavier arrows. Almost all the misses in archery is due to the drop of the arrow and yet it seems like the new trend is to hunt with these heavy arrows. Mine goes stright through sometimes 30-40 yrds past where I hit the deer. Did I miss something in the last few years for the heavy arrow thing?





Shphtr said:


> Because weight kills and speed don’t


this guy wins a prize.



Bowman1989 said:


> I agree 650 grains is insane but honestly a dropping arrow is not why ppl miss especially today with rangefinders. People miss because of lack of practice or the big one, buck fever.


this guy needs one too


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## rmscustom (Mar 7, 2011)

loujo61 said:


> No cables is a good thing


When I got that bow (aero force) not having to sight in for broadheads was unheard of but that bow shot them dead on. No spine indexed and squared on both ends arrows. No shimming or yoke tuning. The thing just shot perfect. But then again there wasn’t archery talk to tell me what was wrong back then. 
At the time it was probably the fastest bow around the way it was set up. My only complaint was trying to shoot a squirrel directly below my stand and my quad caught the lower limb. I still remember that pain and the funny colors my leg turned. Haha


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## copterdoc (Oct 9, 2005)

catkinson said:


> Aim low


Does that work?

I can think of two times that "aim low" really screwed Bill Winke.
In fact, the most recent was this past season.


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## copterdoc (Oct 9, 2005)

plecavalier said:


> Well, they've basicly stated that if they don't have 300 they'll miss.


 When?
Who ever said that?


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## plecavalier (Jan 10, 2008)

kzz1king said:


> What rest is that? It looks familiar!


Cavalier Superflyte


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## spencer12 (Dec 21, 2009)

loujo61 said:


> How does weight without speed kill? Educate us on this, please.


Momentum.


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## copterdoc (Oct 9, 2005)

spencer12 said:


> Momentum.


Without velocity, there is no such thing as Momentum. Momentum is the product of Mass X Velocity.

No velocity, no momentum.


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## spencer12 (Dec 21, 2009)

copterdoc said:


> Without velocity, there is no such thing as Momentum.


That is true, but with modern archery equipment the minimum velocity threshold is more than likely going to be broken even with an insanely heavy arrow.


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## copterdoc (Oct 9, 2005)

spencer12 said:


> That is true, but with modern archery equipment the minimum velocity threshold is more than likely going to be broken even with an insanely heavy arrow.


What?

Say that again, but this time I want you to understand it well enough to explain it.


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## copterdoc (Oct 9, 2005)

copterdoc said:


> Does that work?
> 
> I can think of two times that "aim low" really screwed Bill Winke.
> In fact, the most recent was this past season.


In both cases, (that I'm thinking of) he got a 100% pass-through hit.


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## copterdoc (Oct 9, 2005)

copterdoc said:


> In both cases, (that I'm thinking of) he got a 100% pass-through hit.


And the issue of "string jumping" has "bothered" him enough, that years ago, he wrote at least one article about it. http://www.midwestwhitetail.com/the-truth-about-string-jumping/

There's a great quote in that article, that I *KNOW* applies to me as well.


> It is obvious now, after several encounters, that I don’t think clearly during the moment of truth.


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## dtrkyman (Jul 27, 2004)

1simplemann said:


> Aron, Do you know the guys set up? I would be willing to bet it wasn't a 650 gr arrow w/ a 2 blade cut on contact. If it was that's a dead deer. He missed by 1-2" at most. That's why I shoot 650 gr because it's very easy to miss by that margin in a hunting scenario.


Aaron’s set up was 80lbs with a long draw and fmj, over 500 but not 650, a montec as well, this is for the other but they show get shot in the shoulder and the arrow buries to the nock, might be episode 38?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## plecavalier (Jan 10, 2008)

copterdoc said:


> When?
> Who ever said that?


1. if the arrow is too slow the deer will "jump the string". Remember, you said the arrow has to get there within 0.15 seconds or else
2. if the arrow is too slow the drop is too much if you don't range correctly. I guess you're rangefinder is hit/miss
3. if the arrow is too slow you'll either miss high or low. You guess want all your pins in the vitals in case you're so shaky you don't know which one to use

None of these make any sense to a logical thinking bowhunter yet these are the top rebuttals I get. Over and over. What seems obvious is that the requirement for speed is due mostly to #3 which is rather sad imo. I guess it does make sense in this day and age that everyone wants the easiest route possible. Problem is no one ever said bowhunting is easy and frankly, as of late, I'd rather see it go the other way.


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## copterdoc (Oct 9, 2005)

plecavalier said:


> 1. if the arrow is too slow the deer will "jump the string". Remember, you said the arrow has to get there within 0.15 seconds or else
> 2. if the arrow is too slow the drop is too much if you don't range correctly. I guess you're rangefinder is hit/miss
> 3. if the arrow is too slow you'll either miss high or low. You guess want all your pins in the vitals in case you're so shaky you don't know which one to use.


Nowhere in that quoted statement, does it say that you have to be shooting 300 FPS, or you will miss.
Nor did anyone say that the arrow has to get there in 0.15 seconds or less.

0.15 seconds is the reaction time of a Whitetail. After that, it still needs time to move.
It *cannot* move enough to matter, with even an additional 0.05 seconds.

Those times are easily achieved inside of 20 yards, with an arrow that is travelling at less than 300 FPS.


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## Beartraxx (Sep 22, 2018)

I'll be shooting a moderately weighted arrow this year. 543gr total arrow weight after being headed by a strickland 150 gr single bevel. I don't see this as excessive in any way. I also don't know what velocities I'll reach. I won't bother using a chronograph. At the ranges I hunt I expect this to be a killer.


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## copterdoc (Oct 9, 2005)

plecavalier said:


> ....None of these make any sense to a logical thinking bowhunter yet these are the top rebuttals I get....


 What you need to convince me of, is why consistent 100% pass-through penetration of a Whitetail's rib cage somehow isn't enough.

Because that _IS_ what I get with a 420 grain arrow, at 270 FPS, with a 1.5" mechanical broadhead.
I know, because it's happened every time that I've attempted it.


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## loujo61 (Apr 29, 2005)

plecavalier said:


> 1. if the arrow is too slow the deer will "jump the string". Remember, you said the arrow has to get there within 0.15 seconds or else
> 2. if the arrow is too slow the drop is too much if you don't range correctly. I guess you're rangefinder is hit/miss
> 3. if the arrow is too slow you'll either miss high or low. You guess want all your pins in the vitals in case you're so shaky you don't know which one to use
> 
> None of these make any sense to a logical thinking bowhunter yet these are the top rebuttals I get. Over and over. What seems obvious is that the requirement for speed is due mostly to #3 which is rather sad imo. I guess it does make sense in this day and age that everyone wants the easiest route possible. Problem is no one ever said bowhunting is easy and frankly, as of late, I'd rather see it go the other way.


Sad? What's sad is a wounded animal because you made a small mistake in yardage. There's simply no need in this day in archery for that part to be hard, if you want it to be harder that could be a reason to shoot a 650 grain arrow out of a lower energy bow.


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## copterdoc (Oct 9, 2005)

loujo61 said:


> Sad? What's sad is a wounded animal if you made a small mistake in yardage....


Or, it ducks and you go through scapula, into shoulder roast. There is nothing vital above the spine. It's just meat.

I've wounded/lost at least 5 times as many deer shooting arrows that were too heavy, than I ever did shooting arrows that weren't heavy enough.


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## mn5503 (Feb 21, 2006)

deadquiet said:


> ????? Not by the educated ones. You read ALL kinds of stuff here......if you are crazy enough to listen. But look 450 is light or it is heavy that's probably really confusing you right?
> 
> That's why the people that talk about GPP are the ones you really want to listen to. If I shoot a 80 pound bow 450 grains is 5.6 GPP so it is light. If a lady shoot's the same arrow off her 43 pound bow it heavy but it's the same weight.
> 
> How much energy is transferred to the arrow depends on the ratio between draw weight & arrow weight....that's the key. Tossing around abstract numbers like 450 or any number is pointless without all the info if you really get down to it.


Not confused, 450g is 450g.  The arrow weighs the same no matter what pound bow it's fired from. I thought we were talking arrow weight for whitetails not gpp? I'll take a 450g arrow traveling 300fps over the same 450 arrow going 220fps, all day long. Of course weight is relative if you're talking gpp, I wasn't. I was simply saying there is a trend lately pushing heavy arrows regardless of gpp and 450g seems to be on the light side of the heavy arrow trend. It was just the opposite not too many years ago with the light arrow speed craze. I'm sure we agree on most things but you sure seem to like arguing with just about every one of my posts....

Nobody seems to care about gpp once the arrow gets heavy, everyone is preaching FOC now...


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## plecavalier (Jan 10, 2008)

loujo61 said:


> Sad? What's sad is a wounded animal because you made a small mistake in yardage. There's simply no need in this day in archery for that part to be hard, if you want it to be harder that could be a reason to shoot a 650 grain arrow out of a lower energy bow.


Exactly, you require the speed in order to avoid making a mistake.


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## copterdoc (Oct 9, 2005)

deadquiet said:


> ....How much energy is transferred to the arrow depends on the ratio between draw weight & arrow weight....that's the key. ....


 In reality, the amount of energy transferred into the arrow, depends mostly on how much energy was invested into drawing the bow.

Granted, the bow can only return a percentage of that, and the heavier the arrow, the higher that percentage will be. But we are talking about a minuscule difference in efficiency.


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## copterdoc (Oct 9, 2005)

plecavalier said:


> Exactly, you require the speed in order to avoid making a mistake.


You don't make mistakes?

You think that your heavy arrow's increased penetration will somehow forgive your missing, and that's justifiable. 
While he, with his faster trajectory, is inferior because the flatter trajectory forgave him, and he just didn't miss?


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## tread lightly (Aug 4, 2018)

I recently setup a new set of shafts for this next season. The shafts are 70 grains heavier than my old setup but it's more about the details just like it is more about the opportunities. Where I am @ you have many less opportunities than you did just 20 years ago. It also sounds like you are hunting private with less chance of someone new showing up on the property that throws deer off greatly. More people, more problems. 
My new arrow setup is going from a 100 grain broadhead with 8% FOC on a standard carbon sized shaft to a micro diameter carbon arrow which is denser as well as being thinner with a 125 grain 3 blade broadhead that can be sharpened on a diamond stone with 16% FOC since I special ordered the insert/outsert for my arrows that weighs 95 grains. 
My new black hornet target put the long way behind my paper tuning setup couldn't hold the tip of this arrow and I'm glad I had a bag target behind that. That is @ only 60 lbs. and I tried my other lighter arrows and they only had 10" of penetration on the new block which is 16" deep.
My goal was to get great shoot-ability with a little loss of speed and hopefully approach the penetration I desire without going to 650 grains. I didn't expect these results so soon in the process and I can't wait to see what happens as I continue the process.


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## Normash Shwacks (Jun 2, 2018)

copterdoc said:


> Does that work?
> 
> I can think of two times that "aim low" really screwed Bill Winke.
> In fact, the most recent was this past season.


Yes it works. But you can still aim too low. Don't do that.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


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## copterdoc (Oct 9, 2005)

Normash Shwacks said:


> Yes it works. But you can still aim too low. Don't do that.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


I don't think Bill aimed too low.
The deer just didn't decide to duck.

They do that. 
A lot actually.

That's what we call unpredictable behavior.


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## plecavalier (Jan 10, 2008)

copterdoc said:


> You don't make mistakes?


I do. But the way you guys talk about speed really drives it home that if you didn't have your speed you'd be..."wounding at least 5 times as many deer". So no, in that sense, I don't make mistakes. I get close and I'm sure when I release. There's never a guarantee but a statement like that is as I said, sad.

Like I said earlier, it wasn't a problem at 140 so it certainly isn't at 200. Not for me anyway. If you need nearly 300 to avoid a mistake we don't have the same idea of what bowhunting means.


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## copterdoc (Oct 9, 2005)

plecavalier said:


> I do. But the way you guys talk about speed really drives it home that if you didn't have your speed you'd be..."wounding at least 5 times as many deer".


 So, you like that people are needlessly wounding 5 times as many deer, by using arrows better suited for much larger game?


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## Beartraxx (Sep 22, 2018)

copterdoc said:


> plecavalier said:
> 
> 
> > I do. But the way you guys talk about speed really drives it home that if you didn't have your speed you'd be..."wounding at least 5 times as many deer".
> ...


Please provide verifiable non anecdotal proof of the statement regarding the needless wounding of "5 times as many deer"


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## copterdoc (Oct 9, 2005)

plecavalier said:


> .....it wasn't a problem at 140 so it certainly isn't at 200......


 It absolutely *WAS* a "problem" at 140, and is *still* a problem at 200.

But that still doesn't address my question.
Why do you think that consistent 100% penetration of a Whitetail's rib cage isn't enough?

You literally cannot get more.


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## plecavalier (Jan 10, 2008)

copterdoc said:


> So, you like that people are needlessly wounding 5 times as many deer, by using arrows better suited for much larger game?


Like? No. You must have misread. I wrote I found it sad. It is sad that if all your pins aren't in the vitals you'll wound 5 times as many deer. Really sad.


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## copterdoc (Oct 9, 2005)

plecavalier said:


> Like? No. You must have misread. I wrote I found it sad. It is sad that if all your pins aren't in the vitals you'll wound 5 times as many deer. Really sad.


If they have time to react and move, it *doesn't matter* whether your pin is "in the vitals".
The vitals won't always still be there, when the arrow gets to where it was aimed.


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## Beartraxx (Sep 22, 2018)

copterdoc said:


> plecavalier said:
> 
> 
> > Like? No. You must have misread. I wrote I found it sad. It is sad that if all your pins aren't in the vitals you'll wound 5 times as many deer. Really sad.
> ...



Here's the thing. If a deer jumps string there isn't a bow in the world fast enough to beat it. So, on a somewhat misplaced shot that might have to blow through a femur or a spine, I'll take my heavy arrow with a real broadhead over your light arrow and mech head 100% of the time. 
I'm also still waiting for your verifiable 
Non anecdotal proof that people miss 5 times as many deer due to heavy arrows.


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## copterdoc (Oct 9, 2005)

Beartraxx said:


> Here's the thing. If a deer jumps string there isn't a bow in the world fast enough to beat it....


Yes there is.

A deer *CANNOT* duck an arrow that reaches it in 0.2 seconds or less. And that is easily achievable with today's (and even decade old) archery equipment.


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## plecavalier (Jan 10, 2008)

copterdoc said:


> If they have time to react and move, it *doesn't matter* whether your pin is "in the vitals".
> The vitals won't always still be there, when the arrow gets to where it was aimed.


And we're right back to taking a shot at a non opertune moment. Looks like you've exhausted all your arguments. Certainly haven't convinced me.


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## hoyt fo life555 (Jan 31, 2005)

shootstraight said:


> Look forward to your facts then.


Dude, buy a carp arrow. Tapper the end for a glue on type head. Or an outsert and a heavy broad head. And go shoot a deer. Your out come may be different, as I only witnessed it once( and won’t try it my self) The guy i watched do it could shoot very accurately to about fifty yards. His sights would not allow further without readjusting. I can tell you when he shot the deer it was not a pass through, not even close. 25 yards. The tracking job was really long. The deer suffered far far longer then he should have ( would have if he used a normal arrow). Found him days later, and had to use a rifle to finish him. We never weighed the arrow, but they are heavy. Just saying there is such thing as to heavy to be practical.


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## gregcoya (May 9, 2009)

loujo61 said:


> How does weight without speed kill? Educate us on this, please.


Its really about momentum not KE. Especially FOC. With a high FOC. Do you ALWAYS need a 600 grain arrow? No. But I have shied from the shoulder on occasion ans not gotten the penetration I needed. I don't worry as much when its not a perfect angle. I do use single bevel as well.


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## hunterhewi (Jun 12, 2010)

hoyt fo life555 said:


> Dude, buy a carp arrow. Tapper the end for a glue on type head. Or an outsert and a heavy broad head. And go shoot a deer. Your out come may be different, as I only witnessed it once( and won’t try it my self) The guy i watched do it could shoot very accurately to about fifty yards. His sights would not allow further without readjusting. I can tell you when he shot the deer it was not a pass through, not even close. 25 yards. The tracking job was really long. The deer suffered far far longer then he should have ( would have if he used a normal arrow). Found him days later, and had to use a rifle to finish him. We never weighed the arrow, but they are heavy. Just saying there is such thing as to heavy to be practical.


And 650 grains is NOT too heavy to be practical. That fiberglass arrow probably weighs between 1500-1700 grains. Lets get real here, if it was fiberglass i bet the recovery time of that arrow was horrible being as they arent as stiff as carbon and are usually spined for 40-50lb bows. So if he was shooting 70lbs i can understand one reason for poor penetration. You are basically saying that 1000-1200 grain arrows for elephants would never penetrate or kill the elephant....


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## roosiebull (Oct 3, 2010)

copterdoc said:


> You don't make mistakes?
> 
> You think that your heavy arrow's increased penetration will somehow forgive your missing, and that's justifiable.
> While he, with his faster trajectory, is inferior because the flatter trajectory forgave him, and he just didn't miss?


aren't you talking shots inside 20 yds? something about your arrow speed+distance+deer's reaction time= shot opportunity? how is the speed even a variable for missing due to trajectory?

I went heavier and heavier the past few years, my reasoning to myself was the distance of my normal shooting.... I don't need a flat shooting bow (which is relative, because arrows aren't flat shooting projectiles)

the majority of my shots are inside 20yds, with 40 being my outer extreme (besides follow-up shots of course) that is why heavy was all benefit to my program. I like to have a range beyond 30yds, so my "guessing" will be done at ranges it doesn't matter.

with my 642gr arrows flying in the 240ish fps ballpark, I could keep my arrow in a deer's vitals (dimension-wise) to 34yds, aiming center of lungs... that was an "ah ha" moment, because my lighter, faster rigs were not much better in that regard, it's not the difference you guys try to make it out to be.... that arrow combo was perfect for what I was doing, mega quiet bow, VERY forgiving arrow flight, and a very practical trajectory for what I do.

coincidentally, i'm gonna be shooting a recurve for everything this year, and my draw weight is lower of course vs my compounds (54# with my recurve, 69-73# with my compounds) that's a whole bunch less energy, but i'm going to be shooting a LIGHTER arrow out of my recurve.... that goes somewhat against conventional wisdom, but I do know what matters and what doesn't for the most part, my mind wasn't liking the trajectory path of really heavy arrows in my recurve, I have settled on a perfectly tuned arrow that my mind has an easy time seeing the trajectory.

I would prefer a little heavier arrow, but I will not compromise my accuracy for it. I know that shot placement trumps everything with reasonable equipment, making a good shot with a lighter arrow (still plenty heavy) vs making a poor shot with a heavy arrow is a no brainer to me.... and what suits me best won't suit you best.

everyone wants to think their set-up is the best in the world, everyone wants to be the smartest person, best hunter, etc..... that list of traits is always very visible on this site.... every dang person almost, has it all figured out.... yet everyone's opinion of right is different, with this much arguing, everyone can't be right, which goes to show, lots of stuff works, and everyone wants to overcomplicate this caveman activity of hunting..... I don't know what it is, if you make it more complicated, do you feel more validated when you do kill something? do people want it to sound hard, so they can feel "special" when they kill something?

all I know, is it seems to be pretty obvious to see who's actually out there hunting, and gaining real world knowledge vs the people who sit on their computer instead, finding something they like, the regurgitate it on hunting forums, haha.

lots of arguing here is from people with experience on just one side of the argument (if that) thinking what they are doing must be the best way to do it..... I would say 80% of this thread is that way.... kinda like you comparing heavy arrow speeds from old bows, vs the speeds of lighter arrows through todays bows..... it's like comparing apples to watermelons, and further dilutes the potential info in a thread like this.


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## ANTLERSinNY (Oct 12, 2008)

roosiebull said:


> all I know, is it seems to be pretty obvious to see who's actually out there hunting, and gaining real world knowledge vs the people who sit on their computer instead, finding something they like, the regurgitate it on hunting forums, haha.



:thumbs_up: :darkbeer:


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## plecavalier (Jan 10, 2008)

ANTLERSinNY said:


> :


Some do have decent amount of experience but it's extremely isolated to one type of arrow build. Many bows, releases sights...etc. but one hunting environment (even if it's many species) with one arrow. Hence zero real world knowledge about other builds and what they can and can't do with it. I've met tons of guys that have actually tried it and didn't like it. None of them would dare argue it's effectiveness though. Only those who haven't do.


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## shootstraight (Apr 28, 2005)

hoyt fo life555 said:


> Dude, buy a carp arrow. Tapper the end for a glue on type head. Or an outsert and a heavy broad head. And go shoot a deer. Your out come may be different, as I only witnessed it once( and won’t try it my self) The guy i watched do it could shoot very accurately to about fifty yards. His sights would not allow further without readjusting. I can tell you when he shot the deer it was not a pass through, not even close. 25 yards. The tracking job was really long. The deer suffered far far longer then he should have ( would have if he used a normal arrow). Found him days later, and had to use a rifle to finish him. We never weighed the arrow, but they are heavy. Just saying there is such thing as to heavy to be practical.


I’m sorry, I’m not sure how a fiberglass carp arrow got into this discussion. I assumed we all were talking about heavy arrows meant for killing whitetail deer. I’ll make sure to not try and use a piece of fabricated rebar either.


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## shootstraight (Apr 28, 2005)

copterdoc said:


> Or, it ducks and you go through scapula, into shoulder roast. There is nothing vital above the spine. It's just meat.
> 
> I've wounded/lost at least 5 times as many deer shooting arrows that were too heavy, than I ever did shooting arrows that weren't heavy enough.


5 times as many wounded/lost deer and you’re blaming the weight of the arrow? Maybe fishing is a better sport for you.


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## plecavalier (Jan 10, 2008)

shootstraight said:


> I’m sorry, I’m not sure how a fiberglass carp arrow got into this discussion. I assumed we all were talking about heavy arrows meant for killing whitetail deer. I’ll make sure to not try and use a piece of fabricated rebar either.


It's an attempt to disprove a heavy arrows effectiveness. Sadly, the failure described has likely nothing to do with arrow weight. Not even knowing how much the arrow weighs before sending it at an animal? That arrow was probably north of 1500 grains. Doesn't sound like any sort of due diligence was done tuning wise or other. A fiberglass arrow doesn't have the same reaction as other arrows intended for hunting animals on land. Not surprised at all the deer was wounded. It has no bearing on how a 650 hunting arrow that is well tuned and thought out would perform on a deer.


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## plecavalier (Jan 10, 2008)

shootstraight said:


> 5 times as many wounded/lost deer and you’re blaming the weight of the arrow? Maybe fishing is a better sport for you.


And he still has the nerve to argue beyond that....only on AT.


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## frog gigger (May 4, 2007)

I think some need to first concentrate on hitting the kill zone and how to hunt, over how to build an arrow. 
If you're wounding and losing deer, you're missing the zone.

Speed won't change that, neither will hatchets.


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## 1simplemann (Nov 22, 2018)

dtrkyman said:


> Aaron’s set up was 80lbs with a long draw and fmj, over 500 but not 650, a montec as well, this is for the other but they show get shot in the shoulder and the arrow buries to the nock, might be episode 38?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Aaron made short work of that nice 10 that he shoulder shot. That for me is another example shooting a heavy arrow w/ a heavy bow will give you more shot opportunities. He stated that he was in a tree with very little cover and felt that he was going to get picked off any second. If he waited for the perfect shot then he might not have killed that buck. A lighter bow w/ a lighter arrow set up might not have killed that deer either. The video he posted of that wounded big 8 from Missouri is another example. Almost a perfect shot and no penetration. IMO with a Heavy bow, a heavy arrow and a COC broadhead, that deer is dead within 50 yds. I was wondering if they ever found out who shot that buck? the Neighbor? What was their set up?


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## Bigeclipse (Jul 7, 2013)

Blade1970 said:


> I know I will get some crap for posting this. Just a little feedback. I have bow hunted every single year since 85 and have harvested over 300 dear because I live on a farm with a crop damage stamp. My old bow shot 302 fps and I used a gold tip at 8.2 grains per inch with spitfire tips (100 grain) and since I hunt on the ground I always get a straight pass through on a deer. I see so many new hunters going with much heavier arrows. Almost all the misses in archery is due to the drop of the arrow and yet it seems like the new trend is to hunt with these heavy arrows. Mine goes stright through sometimes 30-40 yrds past where I hit the deer. Did I miss something in the last few years for the heavy arrow thing?


You don't! I would ignore many on this forum. Many hoot and holler that anything under 500grains will bounce off deer...and yet those are the same individuals who were stating speed is king 15 years ago during that craze when everyone was trying to shoot 350grain arrows. If you are shooting over 50lbs and typical draw lengths for a man (27+in) then a 400+ grain arrow with a regular broadhead will be just fine. If we had elk up here then id be shooting heavy arrows OR if you are trying to shoot a large mech, then more weight is better but even then anything over 500grains is a waste of speed.


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## deadquiet (Jan 25, 2005)

shootstraight said:


> I would disagree with this statement! Sound travels much faster than any arrow, ANY sound. Bows make noise no matter how quiet. Shooting a deer that is aware of you presence (even if they haven’t seen you) is the whole reason they jump the string. If it’s relaxed and unaware of you then a louder bow slow or fast will do the job.


You can disagree all you want but for the last 30 years I have been playing around with it in the field. Have you? I have shot bows that were loud and fast, slow and quiet and everything inbetween so this isn't a arm chair & coffee guess it's what I have seen in the field. The good news and why so many people like you think that is the industry is making harder to screw that up by selling very quiet bows. But it can still be seen even today if you throw caution to the wind. 

Anyone that has really tried it knows and then there are the people that just guess, use limited knowledge or parrot others. I hate to be blunt but it's true. 

I'm going to have to save this in microsoft word because I have to say it so often......if you are in your house eating lunch and a the refrigerator kicks on, the heater kicks on, the wife shuts a door etc do you hear those? Of course....do you freak out? Of course not. Why? Because you hear those all day long. 

If it's midnight and the house is just as quiet but you think you heard glass break you DO freak out even though it may not have been as loud as the others noises you heard. 

You can get a compound bow to sound so natural it makes a puff sound and a sound that won't bother the deer. Do they hear it.....of course...do they hear stuff like that ALL day long.....of course. have you ever jumped a quail? Have you ever heard a Turkey roost (sounds like a plane crash) or fly down, ever heard a pine cone drop from a tree? Part of a small dead branch fall? 

I promise if you stand about 10 yards in front of my bow you'll see why I'm saying those things.....because that's about what it sounds like when it goes off. When it's in your face it sounds MUCH different. Granted if you shoot light arrows, have a loud bow, nothing on the string or God forbid something that's loose the bow starts to make noises that are NOT natural and those are the kiss of death for an archer. The you can have combinations of those things as well. 

But if you really do shoot a super quiet bow you'll see what I'm saying is true......then you will understand. Or you can go on doubting me too...…..because I know the truth......I have seen it and done it.


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## deadquiet (Jan 25, 2005)

copterdoc said:


> Yes there is.
> 
> A deer *CANNOT* duck an arrow that reaches it in 0.2 seconds or less. And that is easily achievable with today's (and even decade old) archery equipment.


I wonder how they duck a loud cross bow that's shooting almost 400FPS then if they are alert? Sounds to me it wouldn't matter then if they are alert or NOT if they "cannot" do it in .02 sec according to your math. I think there are numbers people toss around and people that think they know nature based on those numbers and then there are things that we see happen. Don't get them confused. 

Do I need to get a video of a deer ducking a loud/fast cross bow at close range or have you not been around enough to have seen that?


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## Early Ice (Mar 18, 2008)

I'm not reading through this whole thread because I've been down this road. 

First of all, if someone says they shot 300 deer, that's awesome. Sounds like a great time. So 300 of 340 or 300 for 300??? That's where there is missed information. 

I wounded a deer when i was 15, hit him in the shoulder. My fault. Light equipment.

I wounded another buck at 17, scapula or shoulder structure, my fault.

I went 32 of 32 in the next 20 years with various setups I didn't even know In that time frame. 

starting in 2003 i got into "archery" more. I learned, knew my equipment, starting doing my own work and learning from others. 
I shot a 415 grain TAW (and I "thought" that was heavy vs others I talked to) from 03 to 2011, killed every deer I shot at. That will happen on good lung shots, nothing shocking. 

In 2012 I pounded another buck in the shoulder on a shot I shouldn't have taken. 31 yards, hard quartering away and I put the pin too far forward.  I got like 3 inches of penetration. 

At that point i was so SICK, I vowed I'd never take a shot that i wasn't comfortable with, changed my thinking, limited myself to 30 yards or under no matter if it was a world class deer or not. I thought that would do it, well I killed a different buck in 2012 so I was feeling good.

Now in 2014 I was in Iowa, hunted 12 days and never had a big buck within that 30 yards. Finally had a good one come in, unfortunately too close and my only shot was at 7 yards just behind the tree. The buck walked up the ridge, right at me....had to let him pass me to draw. I shot this deer high, just next to the spine angling down and forward. It was a good shot with the correct arrow and head, WHICH I DIDN'T HAVE IN HINDSIGHT. Happy ending though, I hit the flat on the spine, where the ribs start. I got like 5 inches of penetration, I got top lung, about an inch of it. If it weren't for hitting the femoral, i'd still be chasing that buck. Moral of the story, a 650 (550+) grain TAW with a good fixed head would have blown right down through that flat getting lung and may have even passed through. 

I've seen several BAD hits with heavy 600+ arrows and good fixed heads just destroy shoulders and spines. None of this would be possible with anything light....say 350-450 grains and an expandable.

If you kill a lot of deer, one day you'll regret not having the necessary tools for the job. No one wants to have to use their "home owners insurance"....but if you do have something bad go wrong, it could save your butt. 

Missing deer or putting on a bad shot has nothing to do with arrow trajectory or speed or lack there of. From the start of time, if you practice and put your pin where it needs to be, the arrow goes there. Bad shots are never the bows fault. Situations where deer jump the string typically has reasons. Stopping a deer, a nervous deer, no leaves having more sounds, no wind etc. it's hunting, there typically isn't perfect conditions often. I've had one deer duck my arrow, that was a doe at 30 yards that i stopped. I'll admit, it was a stupid shot to begin with. I don't typically shoot at doe more than 20 yards, no need to. I was on a new property and i just wanted to kill. shame on me.


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## adr1601 (Oct 15, 2012)

I don't know why, but I've always respected Randy Ulmers opinion with bow and arrow things. I know he's said he likes an arrow weight for Elk somewhere between 450 and 500 when shooting 70#

I know I've seen Levi Morgan say he likes to be around 420 also. I know you can't dispute Levi's pedigree when it comes to shooting a bow, but I don't know when it comes to hunting.


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## deadquiet (Jan 25, 2005)

Bigeclipse said:


> You don't! I would ignore many on this forum. Many hoot and holler that anything under 500grains will bounce off deer...and yet those are the same individuals who were stating speed is king 15 years ago during that craze when everyone was trying to shoot 350grain arrows. If you are shooting over 50lbs and typical draw lengths for a man (27+in) then a 400+ grain arrow with a regular broadhead will be just fine. If we had elk up here then id be shooting heavy arrows OR if you are trying to shoot a large mech, then more weight is better but even then anything over 500grains is a waste of speed.


LOl…..so you shoot a middle of the road setup and works for you? Imagine that. There a LOTS of people here you don't want to listen to. None of the people you want to listen to are saying the light arrows don't work and we certainly aren't saying what people should use. 

But IMHO you aren't real versed with the facts and are someone I wouldn't listen to unless I were new and looking for a middle of the road generic setup. You kinda' have a one size fits all look at it and while that works for most people without a doubt there is nothing wrong a guy that understands the bigger picture better and tweaks his setup to better benefit his needs. The fact you think it's a "waste" to shoot over 500 grains makes it painfully obvious that you only see things from your perspective and have a limited view either on purpose or by lack of knowledge.

I wish you would make a list for of us of where the waste starts for everything not just arrow weight...….lol

Draw weight
IBO rated bows
Broad head type
Broad head cutting diameter 

Then we could all make sure we are meeting your standards. :wink:

Don't get dialing in a hunting rig to perfection confused with mediocracy...…..and I certainly won't tell you what grain arrow to shoot. It's better to know what happens at both extremes and pick what's right for you rather than close your eyes and jump in the middle.


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## Bigeclipse (Jul 7, 2013)

deadquiet said:


> I wonder how they duck a loud cross bow that's shooting almost 400FPS then if they are alert? Sounds to me it wouldn't matter then if they are alert or NOT if they "cannot" do it in .02 sec according to your math. I think there are numbers people toss around and people that think they know nature based on those numbers and then there are things that we see happen. Don't get them confused.
> 
> Do I need to get a video of a deer ducking a loud/fast cross bow at close range or have you not been around enough to have seen that?


They don't. Head over to the crossbow forum, no one speaks of deer ducking arrows over there...im over there everyday. That is a thing of the past. Sorry but if a deer ducks a crossbow hauling 400 fps it was likely user error or someone shooting way too far distances.


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## Timinator (Feb 10, 2012)

A pass through is a pass through. No more weight needed. You could go to a bigger cut until you don't get a pass through then back off a bit till you do again, but other than that, the OP's initial observations are correct. Why?


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## Bigeclipse (Jul 7, 2013)

deadquiet said:


> LOl…..so you shoot a middle of the road setup and works for you? Imagine that. There a LOTS of people here you don't want to listen to. None of the people you want to listen to are saying the light arrows don't work and we certainly aren't saying what people should use.
> 
> But IMHO you aren't real versed with the facts and are someone I wouldn't listen to unless I were new and looking for a middle of the road generic setup. You kinda' have a one size fits all look at it and while that works for most people without a doubt there is nothing wrong a guy that understands the bigger picture better and tweaks his setup to better benefit his needs. The fact you think it's a "waste" to shoot over 500 grains makes it painfully obvious that you only see things from your perspective and have a limited view either on purpose or by lack of knowledge.
> 
> ...


awe I upset you with my facts. Fact is whitetails are not tough animals. A modern 50lb bow with a typical draw length will blow through a deer using fixed blade heads and a 400 grain arrow. I did mention if you are using larger mechs then weight is your friend but even over 500grains its still likely a waste. Yes I have read up Dr. Ashby. Yes you get more momentum etc with higher weight arrows but it simply is NOT needed for whitetails and that is fact or else people would have been bouncing arrows off deer for the 15 years (light arrow use). I will enjoy sending my 425grain arrows into the dirt after going through the deer...23 of them after this year  You feel free to keep using 500+ grain arrows and burying them deeper into the dirt.


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## KSQ2 (Oct 10, 2007)

deadquiet said:


> You can disagree all you want but for the last 30 years I have been playing around with it in the field. Have you? I have shot bows that were loud and fast, slow and quiet and everything inbetween so this isn't a arm chair & coffee guess it's what I have seen in the field. The good news and why so many people like you think that is the industry is making harder to screw that up by selling very quiet bows. But it can still be seen even today if you throw caution to the wind.
> 
> Anyone that has really tried it knows and then there are the people that just guess, use limited knowledge or parrot others. I hate to be blunt but it's true.
> 
> ...


GREAT post!


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## plecavalier (Jan 10, 2008)

Timinator said:


> A pass through is a pass through. No more weight needed. You could go to a bigger cut until you don't get a pass through then back off a bit till you do again, but other than that, the OP's initial observations are correct. Why?


Because people wound deer with less all the time. The real question imo is what exactly is the harm or negative aspect of using a 650 grain arrow? Unless in a special situation most people would benefit from it. So I say why not?


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## Early Ice (Mar 18, 2008)

Timinator said:


> A pass through is a pass through. No more weight needed. You could go to a bigger cut until you don't get a pass through then back off a bit till you do again, but other than that, the OP's initial observations are correct. Why?


I think you are missing the point. Bigger cut means nothing. Dead is dead. a 1 inch broadhead through both lungs does the same as a 5.5 inch rage. Actually it doesn't, the 1 inch fixed the deer stands there and looks around while it bleeds out. 

your comment assumes it's rib cage hit. I don't understand why people talk about "bigger broadhead". Broadhead size means nothing when it comes to kills.


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## Bigeclipse (Jul 7, 2013)

Early Ice said:


> I'm not reading through this whole thread because I've been down this road.
> 
> First of all, if someone says they shot 300 deer, that's awesome. Sounds like a great time. So 300 of 340 or 300 for 300??? That's where there is missed information.
> 
> ...


Your math is flawed. I blew through both shoulder of a 225lb buck with a 425 grain arrow shooting grave digger broadheads 65lb bow with a 28in draw length. the arrow stuck out 3 inches on the off side of the deer so not a complete passthrough but a dead deer none the less with broken shoulders (one of which was the ball of the femur bone). I have hit shoulder several times on quartering shots...typically quartering away with the arrow exiting the shoulder, and they all blew through (now using G5 Deadmeats). I must have a magical setup I guess.


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## Bigeclipse (Jul 7, 2013)

plecavalier said:


> Because people wound deer with less all the time. The real question imo is what exactly is the harm or negative aspect of using a 650 grain arrow? Unless in a special situation most people would benefit from it. So I say why not?


GIANT pin gaps. 90% of hunters out there do not practice enough to overcome pingaps. Range a deer at 25 yards and then that deer bounds away from you and you don't have time to range again. You guesstimate it is now 30 yards but really its 36. Slow bow misses or wounds...faster bow maybe has a chance. I have seen as many people wound deer because of vertical issues as horizontal. this helps to eliminate those issues.


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## plecavalier (Jan 10, 2008)

Bigeclipse said:


> Your math is flawed. I blew through both shoulder of a 225lb buck with a 425 grain arrow shooting grave digger broadheads 65lb bow with a 28in draw length. the arrow stuck out 3 inches on the off side of the deer so not a complete passthrough but a dead deer none the less with broken shoulders (one of which was the ball of the femur bone). I have hit shoulder several times on quartering shots...typically quartering away with the arrow exiting the shoulder, and they all blew through (now using G5 Deadmeats). I must have a magical setup I guess.


I'm not going to call you out and I'll let Early respond for himself but the experience you describe there is incredibly unique compared to the daily feedback I get if people asking for help to build a better arrow after a bad experience in that exact weight range and wide mechanicals.


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## Bigeclipse (Jul 7, 2013)

Early Ice said:


> I think you are missing the point. Bigger cut means nothing. Dead is dead. a 1 inch broadhead through both lungs does the same as a 5.5 inch rage. Actually it doesn't, the 1 inch fixed the deer stands there and looks around while it bleeds out.
> 
> your comment assumes it's rib cage hit. I don't understand why people talk about "bigger broadhead". Broadhead size means nothing when it comes to kills.


again more false. By your argument if we need a super heavy arrow in the off chance we hit a shoulder bone, then it is EQUALLY likely we might hit guts and the LARGER cutting broadhead WILL kill the deer faster in the guts than the smaller cutting broadhead. I am not saying HUGE mechs are end all be all but it is the SAME argument.


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## plecavalier (Jan 10, 2008)

Bigeclipse said:


> GIANT pin gaps. 90% of hunters out there do not practice enough to overcome pingaps. Range a deer at 25 yards and then that deer bounds away from you and you don't have time to range again. You guesstimate it is now 30 yards but really its 36. Slow bow misses or wounds...faster bow maybe has a chance. I have seen as many people wound deer because of vertical issues as horizontal. this helps to eliminate those issues.


Oh man. That is bowhunting. If you can't deal with that grab a rifle not a lighter/faster arrow.

Just like anything in life if you aren't willing to put the time in don't preach your shortcuts to others as if you're equal. Comes back to wanting bowhunting to be easy. It ain't.


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## plecavalier (Jan 10, 2008)

Bigeclipse said:


> again more false. By your argument if we need a super heavy arrow in the off chance we hit a shoulder bone, then it is EQUALLY likely we might hit guts and the LARGER cutting broadhead WILL kill the deer faster in the guts than the smaller cutting broadhead. I am not saying HUGE mechs are end all be all but it is the SAME argument.


A gut wound is not a lethal shot so the difference between 1.5" and 2" is moot. If the deer will take hours to die the cut width won't change that.


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## enewman (Jun 5, 2007)

Bigeclipse said:


> awe I upset you with my facts. Fact is whitetails are not tough animals. A modern 50lb bow with a typical draw length will blow through a deer using fixed blade heads and a 400 grain arrow. I did mention if you are using larger mechs then weight is your friend but even over 500grains its still likely a waste. Yes I have read up Dr. Ashby. Yes you get more momentum etc with higher weight arrows but it simply is NOT needed for whitetails and that is fact or else people would have been bouncing arrows off deer for the 15 years (light arrow use). I will enjoy sending my 425grain arrows into the dirt after going through the deer...23 of them after this year  You feel free to keep using 500+ grain arrows and burying them deeper into the dirt.


I agree with but if what you see is the norm with your 425 gr arrow then why do we see so many deer shot every year with people coming on here and asking for help. I’ve shot 425gr arrows. And I’ve not had passthrough. So now where is the difference. I’m a 26.5 Draw. So if you are close to 28 inches that is enough to make a difference between me and you. So what do I need to do. I would need to up my mass. 

Here is an example of a real world test number. My 429gr at 279fps slug-ft/s is .534. Just going to 28” increases that set up to 294.7fps and a slug-ft/s of .561. Now that is not much. But it is still a gain. For me and my short draw I would have to increase my mass to 490gr to have the same slug-ft/s Now the good thing is even though my slug matches yours I did this by mass. My penetration potential will way over come yours. 

Two ways to improve penetration. Mass and velocity. Penetration improved by mass will always be better then improved by velocity.


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## Bigeclipse (Jul 7, 2013)

enewman said:


> I agree with but if what you see is the norm with your 425 gr arrow then why do we see so many deer shot every year with people coming on here and asking for help. I’ve shot 425gr arrows. And I’ve not had passthrough. So now where is the difference. I’m a 26.5 Draw. So if you are close to 28 inches that is enough to make a difference between me and you. So what do I need to do. I would need to up my mass.
> 
> Here is an example of a real world test number. My 429gr at 279fps slug-ft/s is .534. Just going to 28” increases that set up to 294.7fps and a slug-ft/s of .561. Now that is not much. But it is still a gain. For me and my short draw I would have to increase my mass to 490gr to have the same slug-ft/s Now the good thing is even though my slug matches yours I did this by mass. My penetration potential will way over come yours.
> 
> Two ways to improve penetration. Mass and velocity. Penetration improved by mass will always be better then improved by velocity.


I agree and is why I said "typical" setup for men. Read my first post. My wife does not use a typical setup for a "man" thus she does use heavier arrow weight to draw weight ratio than someone like me. She also shoots beveled 2 blade fixed blade broadheads and limits her shots to 35 yards. Yes it all depends on what your goals are but when people just flat out say 500+grains blah blah blah I shoot 90lb setup with 35inch draw length yada yada yada I start to laugh.

Lastly...this is whitetails we are talking. Their bodies are what...18inches thick on a broadside shot? I mean come on...it does not take much to fully penetrate that. Most of those threads you speak off (I cant get full passthroughs) is someone shooting large mechs at 30 yard+ distances with a lower poundage or smaller draw length setup than "typical"


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## ruffjason (May 20, 2018)

I don't care what you shoot and you shouldn't care what I shoot.


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## plecavalier (Jan 10, 2008)

Bigeclipse said:


> I agree and is why I said "typical" setup for men. Read my first post. My wife does not use a typical setup for a "man" thus she does use heavier arrow weight to draw weight ratio than someone like me. She also shoots beveled 2 blade fixed blade broadheads and limits her shots to 35 yards. Yes it all depends on what your goals are but when people just flat out say 500+grains blah blah blah I shoot 90lb setup with 35inch draw length yada yada yada I start to laugh.
> 
> Lastly...this is whitetails we are talking. Their bodies are what...18inches thick on a broadside shot? I mean come on...it does not take much to fully penetrate that. Most of those threads you speak off (I cant get full passthroughs) is someone shooting large mechs at 30 yard+ distances with a lower poundage or smaller draw length setup than "typical"


Even with "typical" I don't agree. Too many wounded to agree.


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## enewman (Jun 5, 2007)

Bigeclipse said:


> I agree and is why I said "typical" setup for men. Read my first post. My wife does not use a typical setup for a "man" thus she does use heavier arrow weight to draw weight ratio than someone like me. She also shoots beveled 2 blade fixed blade broadheads and limits her shots to 35 yards. Yes it all depends on what your goals are but when people just flat out say 500+grains blah blah blah I shoot 90lb setup with 35inch draw length yada yada yada I start to laugh.
> 
> Lastly...this is whitetails we are talking. Their bodies are what...18inches thick on a broadside shot? I mean come on...it does not take much to fully penetrate that. Most of those threads you speak off (I cant get full passthroughs) is someone shooting large mechs at 30 yard+ distances with a lower poundage or smaller draw length setup than "typical"


Yes, and most people don’t look at the difference between what I shoot and you shoot. 

As far as recommending a 500gr. That is a good all around weight. When we are on post that is technical
then we can go much deeper into it. But when on a post when a person is just asking what is a good weight. Just give an average. Most people don’t care about all the physics Mumbo jumbo. 

I mean we can break it down into numbers if someone wants. Hell we can do that with broadheads calculations Mechanical advantage. I can show you heads that in reality will suck big time but work great depending on shooters spec. Again most people don’t care enough.


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## Early Ice (Mar 18, 2008)

Bigeclipse said:


> Your math is flawed. I blew through both shoulder of a 225lb buck with a 425 grain arrow shooting grave digger broadheads 65lb bow with a 28in draw length. the arrow stuck out 3 inches on the off side of the deer so not a complete passthrough but a dead deer none the less with broken shoulders (one of which was the ball of the femur bone). I have hit shoulder several times on quartering shots...typically quartering away with the arrow exiting the shoulder, and they all blew through (now using G5 Deadmeats). I must have a magical setup I guess.


Ok, i'll humor you. Kinda like the waterfowl "skybuster". 4 boxes of shells and finally got one. Just reinforces stupid.

I watch the videos, I hear the horror stories. Expandables not even getting out the other side of a ribe cage....and now you are pounding them through shoulders and femurs. Naw..... just going through two scapulas with an expandable and that weight is remarkable.


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## Hoyt slayer (Nov 30, 2011)

just putting some numbers to the 0.2 seconds I saw mentioned earlier and a few other times . Don't have much of a dog in this fight, think 650 grains is foolish personally, but also think under 400 grains is also unwise unless you are shooting very small sharp broadheads.


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## roosiebull (Oct 3, 2010)

Bigeclipse said:


> again more false. By your argument if we need a super heavy arrow in the off chance we hit a shoulder bone, then it is EQUALLY likely we might hit guts and the LARGER cutting broadhead WILL kill the deer faster in the guts than the smaller cutting broadhead. I am not saying HUGE mechs are end all be all but it is the SAME argument.


IMO, the argument you are making does have merit, and I think people should build arrows that suit THEIR needs, whatever they may be. I think most arguments have some merit, but many seem to think what they do is right for everyone.

I have hunted with a wide range of weight, they all worked when I did my part.. none were magic, but I have built my program on my needs. There are pros and cons to everything.

I don’t understand these “matter of fact” arguments, nobody is “right “


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## plecavalier (Jan 10, 2008)

Hoyt slayer said:


> just putting some numbers to the 0.2 seconds I saw mentioned earlier and a few other times . Don't have much of a dog in this fight, think 650 grains is foolish personally, but also think under 400 grains is also unwise unless you are shooting very small sharp broadheads.
> View attachment 6767373


What does that actually prove? An alert deer is going to move? We know that already. That's why everyone else is saying to shoot when the deer isn't on alert. No chance to move.


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## Hoyt slayer (Nov 30, 2011)

plecavalier said:


> What does that actually prove? An alert deer is going to move? We know that already. That's why everyone else is saying to shoot when the deer isn't on alert. No chance to move.


It was stated earlier that assuming a 0.2 second window of time before a deer can move enough to make a difference that a 290ish arrow would get there inside of 20 yards. The numbers seem to agree with that statement.

I think its pretty bold to say a deer has "no chance to move" even if it's not paying attention with a quiet bow. Even your friendly neighborhood ranch fairy talks about how every animal we shoot at is moving and he's not exactly a light arrow kind of guy.


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## Gamover06 (Aug 20, 2014)

Your light, poor penetrating, KE sucking mechanical broadhead arrow is factoring perfect shot and hunting situations. We would all love to take 20 yard shots at slightly quartering or broadside deer while they are completely unalert but unfortunately it is just not possible. I don't need to break the speed barrier but rather break bones and keep penetrating. I do think that 650 is a ridiculous number and I don't see that high of arrow that often for whitetails. I am currently at 580 and that is the highest I will go for whitetail. I will most likely bump it down 25 grains so that I can cut some turkey heads off this year. I see more people in the 500 to 550 range which I more realistic. The speed will still be there in the 260 to 280 range and you will still have the weight to get great penetration.


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## PA Hubba4107 (Mar 4, 2019)

I shot a 550 grain arrow last archery season and my bow is much quieter with them, and the penetration was pretty impressive when I shot a buck quartered away it came out the opposite front shoulder and he went nowhere.


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## enewman (Jun 5, 2007)

Gamover06 said:


> Your light, poor penetrating, KE sucking mechanical broadhead arrow is factoring perfect shot and hunting situations. We would all love to take 20 yard shots at slightly quartering or broadside deer while they are completely unalert but unfortunately it is just not possible. I don't need to break the speed barrier but rather break bones and keep penetrating. I do think that 650 is a ridiculous number and I don't see that high of arrow that often for whitetails. I am currently at 580 and that is the highest I will go for whitetail. I will most likely bump it down 25 grains so that I can cut some turkey heads off this year. I see more people in the 500 to 550 range which I more realistic. The speed will still be there in the 260 to 280 range and you will still have the weight to get great penetration.


It’s funny what people want to see. Any time dr ashby name is brought up its the 650 arrow. Every time a heavy arrow is talked about it’s a 650gr arrow. When I make post on do ashby I’m called a ashby kool aid drinker. But yet my average arrow is only 500 to 550 gr. Hahaha. 

I have no clue why post like this get started. People always want to show that there light arrow works great and they have never had a problem. I’m very happy for them. But I have had problems with light arrows. That’s why I’m at the 500 range.


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## df06 (Jun 9, 2007)

Bowman1989 said:


> I agree 650 grains is insane but honestly a dropping arrow is not why ppl miss especially today with rangefinders. People miss because of lack of practice or the big one, buck fever.


Exactly.
I was wondering where the op got the data on misses.
I shoot a 520 grain arrow, and think it’s a pretty good compromise of speed and energy, for my hunting.
But if others want to shoot 650 or 350, go ahead.


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## 3D Pinwheeler (Jan 29, 2007)




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## plecavalier (Jan 10, 2008)

Yes and it's just as innocent to state that with a certain speed you can always beat the reaction.

The problem with all this is that animals are actually unpredictable. We have no way of knowing for sure when the animal is going to start to react. That's why I say it's pointless to consider beating that. Keeping the gear as quiet and natural sounding as possible and being well equipped for the worst case is a better approach.

Just because a group of scientist can calculate that it's physiology impossible for a deer to react quicker than a specific amount if time doesn't mean you as a bowhunter are aware if the triggered timeframe. Quite the opposite. An unalert deer with a heavy arrow will always be the right recipe imo.


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## hunterhewi (Jun 12, 2010)

I can have my 6-650 grain arrows in the 260-275 fps range, so why not do it? Thats a 345fps ibo bow 30.5/70 lbs. im goin to venture to say most guys running 4-450 grain arrows are in the 270-290fps range so they arent gaining anything over me, but i have a good advantage over them with 200 more grains.

Its the same old stupid arguement on here all the time. “My setup works and is all i need” yes that may be true until it dont work, then you second guess your setup. Like i stated ive killed 30+ deer with the bow and not one single time have i had one slightly duck the string. The experts on here can state what they want, but imo you need to work on you actual hunting skills if you are alerting deer like this. I dont think 600 grains is ridiculous if i can push it as fast as most push a 420 grain arrow. So tell me what benefit you are gaining over me?? I would love to know


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## kickindonkey (Oct 29, 2011)

nuttinbutchunks said:


> My son likes Dr Ashby and is always talking about front loading his shafts. What ever! My arrows weigh 390 grains and I've killed a bear with them. I like to have 100 yards range, not that I would take that shot all the time but I did kill a mule deer at 98 yards. Heavier shafts would shorten that range and I'm just not into that.





> This is not correct at all. Scientifically or even conceptually. Just like ballistics with firearms, heavier projectiles fly more consistent down range and aren't affected as much by external factors. Heavier projectiles may fall faster but you also experience more kinetic energy on impact. I would venture to say that you're 390 grain arrow at a hundred yards with as little as a 4-mph crosswind is absolutely worthless. You may want something if you can even get it to repeat accuracy at that distance. not saying you can't kill something but it would be more of luck then sound archery. Having higher weight usually through heavier points helps achieve more FOC which also helps control flight control and consistency down range. I know people tend to get caught up in trends in archery but heavy arrows and high front of Center is not a new thing. Just ask the traditional guys, they've been putting 175 FPS arrows that weigh over 600 grains through animals since the beginning of time. Most importantly shoot what is more accurate and comfortable for you always..... But don't be closed off to learning new things just because these young kids with their "math" and "science" think it's cool.


The idea that 5 FPS or 10 FPS matters his being sold by the bow manufacturer so you will need a new bow every year 

Sent from my Pixel XL using Archery Talk Forum


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## Early Ice (Mar 18, 2008)

PA Hubba4107 said:


> I shot a 550 grain arrow last archery season and my bow is much quieter with them, and the penetration was pretty impressive when I shot a buck quartered away it came out the opposite front shoulder and he went nowhere.


550 is a really nice weight to be at for whitetail. It will do some damage. 

The problem with a thread like this, is that when a # is assigned to "what you should be"....it gets funky.... My personal opinion is that if you are at 350, adding 50 grains won't even affect your arrow drop but an inch maybe at 25 yards if that. 

Even as small as going from a 100 grain head to a 125 or 150, it will all help, it can't hurt. People don't have to go out and spend money on new arrows, heads etc etc, but moving up 50 grains is super easy if one wanted to. The drop you get being 50 grains heavier....most won't even notice. When I went to 125 from 100....I had no drop to 25 yards. I don't know why I was so baffled but I was. Like I said before, I don't even know why 100 grain tips are even made anymore.

550 is a really nice weight actually, glad it served you well.

I ended up making two complete arrow builds recently. I have 3 now, all the same arrows just different components, i'll probably be hunting with 598 TAW this year. i'm really not afraid of tucking it up front where it needs to be where as years back I stayed away from scapula and leg bone at all costs.


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## shootstraight (Apr 28, 2005)

frog gigger said:


> I think some need to first concentrate on hitting the kill zone and how to hunt, over how to build an arrow.
> If you're wounding and losing deer, you're missing the zone.
> 
> Speed won't change that, neither will hatchets.


Truth!



deadquiet said:


> You can disagree all you want but for the last 30 years I have been playing around with it in the field. Have you? I have shot bows that were loud and fast, slow and quiet and everything inbetween so this isn't a arm chair & coffee guess it's what I have seen in the field. The good news and why so many people like you think that is the industry is making harder to screw that up by selling very quiet bows. But it can still be seen even today if you throw caution to the wind.
> 
> Anyone that has really tried it knows and then there are the people that just guess, use limited knowledge or parrot others. I hate to be blunt but it's true.
> 
> ...


Well give yourself a pat on the back for being the only one here who understands that a quiet bow is helpful. Btw I find many of your posts condescending so I’m modeling this response off of that. I too have over 30 years bowhunting, I’ve shot by today’s standards very quiet bows and also very loud bows. I’m not too much into meat hunting so don’t have huge numbers when it comes to bow kills. Somewhere in the 40 range, I’ve had one deer in that time jump the string and I shouldn’t have taken the shot. Mature buck, he knew I was there at 40 yards. 

I’m right there with you on having your bow and all equipment extremely quiet, however I stand by my disagreement of your statement. If given the choice of having a loud bow and shooting a relaxed deer, vs shooting a quiet bow at a deer on alert, I’d take the the former all day long.


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## Bigeclipse (Jul 7, 2013)

plecavalier said:


> A gut wound is not a lethal shot so the difference between 1.5" and 2" is moot. If the deer will take hours to die the cut width won't change that.


100% WRONG....you can bet your arse a gut shot is lethal. That deer will 100% die! It will likely take hours. Now if you know anything about the digestive tract, the small and large intestines are surrounded by blood vessels. This is why if you mess up and hit a deer in the guts, it is often better you hit intestine and not just stomach as if you cut enough of the blood vessels that deer could bleed out in just a couple hours versus all night. This is where a larger cutting mech is valuable. But again, no one should advocate shooting guts, just like no one should advocate shooting shoulders.


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## roosiebull (Oct 3, 2010)

shootstraight said:


> Truth!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


FYI, a nice tight set screw on your rest will keep it from rattling around, that’s likely what caused that buck to jump your string :wink:


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## 3D Pinwheeler (Jan 29, 2007)

I'll take too far forward over too far back any day.


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## frog gigger (May 4, 2007)

shootstraight said:


> Truth!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Same here.
Last years buck I shot from 42, and had literally yelled to make it stop. 
It didn't flinch till the arrow was on the other side with a 50#, 475 grain setup.


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## plecavalier (Jan 10, 2008)

Bigeclipse said:


> 100% WRONG....you can bet your arse a gut shot is lethal. That deer will 100% die! It will likely take hours. Now if you know anything about the digestive tract, the small and large intestines are surrounded by blood vessels. This is why if you mess up and hit a deer in the guts, it is often better you hit intestine and not just stomach as if you cut enough of the blood vessels that deer could bleed out in just a couple hours versus all night. This is where a larger cutting mech is valuable. But again, no one should advocate shooting guts, just like no one should advocate shooting shoulders.


No it's not 100% WRONG. If you read what I actually wrote you'll see I confirmed the deer would die. Your shorts are too much in a bind to read properly. By lethal, meaning it will die within a reasonable amount of time...minutes not hours. Just about any shot could be lethal...

Again the difference between a 1.5" cut and a 2" is moot under those circumstances. A 1" cut could be more lethal in guys if it cuts more vessels than your 2". This is ridiculous....


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## Early Ice (Mar 18, 2008)

3D Pinwheeler said:


> I'll take too far forward over too far back any day.


To each his own on this one, but I've been unlucky and had an unfortunate gut hit back in 2015. The buck looked at me at full draw for at least 2 minutes and didn't have the shot yet. By the time he took his two steps I needed I guess i was just so flustered and discombobulated that I gut shot him. He went 150 yards, laid down and found him still alive 14 hours later. 

That said, a gut shot deer doesn't go far. a one lung can run for a mile. So If I had to pick, guts all day over too far forward. I have buddies than run dogs....gut shot is 100% recovery rate. 

I"m not arguing, i'm just stating my stance on this subject. Gut shot is NOT pretty, but if I screwed up, i'd rather see it back. Gut shot deer don't run far. Like I said, it's one of the two shot's people hate the most, Gut and spine, however both get it done and are the best "ugly" kill shot you can hope for. I'll take a gut shot over a high one lung or clip one lung and out the brisket. Those shots you better get on the running shoes and knee pads cause it's an all nighter. I don't know, that's me though.


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## 3D Pinwheeler (Jan 29, 2007)

Early Ice said:


> To each his own on this one, but I've been unlucky and had an unfortunate gut hit back in 2015. The buck looked at me at full draw for at least 2 minutes and didn't have the shot yet. By the time he took his two steps I needed I guess i was just so flustered and discombobulated that I gut shot him. He went 150 yards, laid down and found him still alive 14 hours later.
> 
> That said, a gut shot deer doesn't go far. a one lung can run for a mile. So If I had to pick, guts all day over too far forward. I have buddies than run dogs....gut shot is 100% recovery rate.
> 
> I"m not arguing, i'm just stating my stance on this subject. Gut shot is NOT pretty, but if I screwed up, i'd rather see it back. Gut shot deer don't run far. Like I said, it's one of the two shot's people hate the most, Gut and spine, however both get it done and are the best "ugly" kill shot you can hope for. I'll take a gut shot over a high one lung or clip one lung and out the brisket. Those shots you better get on the running shoes and knee pads cause it's an all nighter. I don't know, that's me though.


Yep I understand...I've killed a pile of deer and screwed up a lot of shots in my younger years. Been on some tracking jobs too. lol


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## Hoyt slayer (Nov 30, 2011)

plecavalier said:


> Yes and it's just as innocent to state that with a certain speed you can always beat the reaction.
> 
> The problem with all this is that animals are actually unpredictable. We have no way of knowing for sure when the animal is going to start to react. That's why I say it's pointless to consider beating that. Keeping the gear as quiet and natural sounding as possible and being well equipped for the worst case is a better approach.
> 
> Just because a group of scientist can calculate that it's physiology impossible for a deer to react quicker than a specific amount if time doesn't mean you as a bowhunter are aware if the triggered timeframe. Quite the opposite. An unalert deer with a heavy arrow will always be the right recipe imo.


I'm guessing you were trying to reply to me.

Yes and it's just as innocent to state that with a certain speed you can always beat the reaction.
Within a certain range it is pretty plausible. As was the reason for showing the numbers.

The problem with all this is that animals are actually unpredictable. We have no way of knowing for sure when the animal is going to start to react. That's why I say it's pointless to consider beating that. Keeping the gear as quiet and natural sounding as possible and being well equipped for the worst case is a better approach.
You just literally said “when the deer isn’t on alert. No chance to move.”. You posted that your current bow is an Oneida. While they have some cool aspects, nobody claims them to be quiet so maybe that’s why you need such a heavy arrow.

Just because a group of scientist can calculate that it's physiology impossible for a deer to react quicker than a specific amount if time doesn't mean you as a bowhunter are aware if the triggered timeframe. Quite the opposite. An unalert deer with a heavy arrow will always be the right recipe imo.
Actually yes, that’s how math and science work. They can measure the distance from brain to eyes/ears and they know how fast an electrical current can travel. If they publish that data then, yes I can be aware of that timeframe. From some quick google searching it appears the 0.15 - 0.2 seconds is commonly claimed (this is the time for the signal to get to the brain, doesn’t account for how long to actually drop), Visual responses being faster than audible responses. I don’t think anyone is advocating to purposefully only shoot at alert deer. It is nice to know in your head thanks to math that inside of 20 yards with my current speed of 290 fps with a 500 grain arrow that it is going to get into the vitals (provided I make a good shot) even on an alert deer if need be.


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## plecavalier (Jan 10, 2008)

Hoyt slayer said:


> I'm guessing you were trying to reply to me.
> 
> Yes and it's just as innocent to state that with a certain speed you can always beat the reaction.
> Within a certain range it is pretty plausible. As was the reason for showing the numbers.
> ...


You missed my point in every response. I'm not going to cover all of it because I'm on my phone now and you'll probably disagree anyways. This whole discussion is pointless imo...

I would never say "no chance to move". I've been hunting long enough to know that.

My point about the reaction time is that no Hunter can know when the triggered time is. If it's all math and science when does the 0.15 seconds start? When you pull the trigger or when the deer decides to start moving? lol See my point. You'll never know so stating you can beat the reaction is innocent on both your part.


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## frog gigger (May 4, 2007)

^^^Somebody will invent a gadget to detect trigger time, best thing since the Garmin.ukey:


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## christianslick (Aug 2, 2018)

What a thread! I've always been on the fence about my arrow weight (390-410gr) but I've definitely been convinced to up the weight to around 450 and give it a go. Is it 650gr like some of you? No but I can definitely see why some may do that and could eventually see myself gravitating that way in the future.


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## hoyt fo life555 (Jan 31, 2005)

plecavalier said:


> It's an attempt to disprove a heavy arrows effectiveness. Sadly, the failure described has likely nothing to do with arrow weight. Not even knowing how much the arrow weighs before sending it at an animal? That arrow was probably north of 1500 grains. Doesn't sound like any sort of due diligence was done tuning wise or other. A fiberglass arrow doesn't have the same reaction as other arrows intended for hunting animals on land. Not surprised at all the deer was wounded. It has no bearing on how a 650 hunting arrow that is well tuned and thought out would perform on a deer.


I was posting as to the,” there is no such thing as to heavy”. Iam just saying there really is a practical limit, that’s all.( as would rebar be) I don’t care what any body shoots, just giving a “ bad” example of a guy trying to use an overly heavy arrow, thinking he is going to blow through anything. And yes he tuned his bow to it, it actualy shot good to the 50 yards he tried it to. But flew like a rainbow. Carry on, it’s obvious there are different opinions on the subject. And iam sure he knew how much it weighed, ( I know he told me but I don’t remember) but I myself don’t know what it was. Good luck to all, heavy, light or in between.


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## montanacur (Sep 12, 2005)

I get a kick out of this thread. I've been out of the loop since 2012 when I decided to take a hiatus for a bit. I started shooting in the mid 2000's, and the craze then was speed. Almost everyone was shooting arrows as close to 5 gpp as they could get, even for hunting. That was still going on in 2010, 11. When I got back on to here this last October, now everyone is shooting super heavy arrows. I'm not trying to knock anyone's choices, because really, shoot what and how you want ethically, but it's always interesting to see the newest fads (and yes, I know a lot of guys have always shot heavy arrows) and the arguments they create. 15 years ago it was speed (I'm faster than you!!), now it's weight (I'm heavier than you!!).... where will it be in 5 more years? Just shoot what works for you. I think my hunting arrows this year will be right around 420 grains out of a 61.5 lb bow with an FOC of a little over 14%. I'm pretty happy with that. Good luck this year!


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## plecavalier (Jan 10, 2008)

christianslick said:


> What a thread! I've always been on the fence about my arrow weight (390-410gr) but I've definitely been convinced to up the weight to around 450 and give it a go. Is it 650gr like some of you? No but I can definitely see why some may do that and could eventually see myself gravitating that way in the future.


Lol add a few grains every year and look what happens.


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## Hoyt slayer (Nov 30, 2011)

plecavalier said:


> You missed my point in every response. I'm not going to cover all of it because I'm on my phone now and you'll probably disagree anyways. This whole discussion is pointless imo...
> 
> I would never say "no chance to move". I've been hunting long enough to know that.
> 
> My point about the reaction time is that no Hunter can know when the triggered time is. If it's all math and science when does the 0.15 seconds start? When you pull the trigger or when the deer decides to start moving? lol See my point. You'll never know so stating you can beat the reaction is innocent on both your part.









don't worry, I found it for you.


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## copterdoc (Oct 9, 2005)

montanacur said:


> ....I think my hunting arrows this year will be right around 420 grains out of a 61.5 lb bow with an FOC of a little over 14%....


 That's a perfect setup for Whitetail.


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## plecavalier (Jan 10, 2008)

Hoyt slayer said:


> View attachment 6767735
> don't worry, I found it for you.


Haha. So that's what they mean by never say never. I think it's worse when you write it. I wouldn't have passed that one up either.


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## Hudsy (Jan 23, 2017)

plecavalier said:


> Lol add a few grains every year and look what happens.


You must be shooting some iron skinned deer with that puppy...



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## shootstraight (Apr 28, 2005)

frog gigger said:


> I think some need to first concentrate on hitting the kill zone and how to hunt, over how to build an arrow.
> If you're wounding and losing deer, you're missing the zone.
> 
> Speed won't change that, neither will hatchets.





plecavalier said:


> Lol add a few grains every year and look what happens.


That arrow is way to heavy to kill a deer! :wink:


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## shootstraight (Apr 28, 2005)

roosiebull said:


> FYI, a nice tight set screw on your rest will keep it from rattling around, that’s likely what caused that buck to jump your string :wink:



Actually it might have been that horrific scratchy sound of the arrow grinding it’s way through the WhiskerB. :embara:


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## crankn101 (Jan 26, 2007)

shootstraight said:


> That arrow is way to heavy to kill a deer! :wink:


 Good thing deer dont have opposable thumbs, they would catch those right out of the air.


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## BDHUNTR (May 24, 2003)

plecavalier said:


> Lol add a few grains every year and look what happens.


Good lookin' aluminum arrow there!


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## pa.hunter (Jan 3, 2008)

lots cool aid:darkbeer: drinkers on here


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## enewman (Jun 5, 2007)

pa.hunter said:


> lots cool aid:darkbeer: drinkers on here


Kool aid drinkers? What or who are we drinking kool aid for.


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## crankn101 (Jan 26, 2007)

enewman said:


> Kool aid drinkers? What or who are we drinking kool aid for.


 -Asks the congregation


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## jewalker7842 (Aug 15, 2011)

You don't need a telephone pole to kill a deer, hog, or elk. A well placed 400gr arrow with a sharp COC broadhead will do the trick every time.


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## hunterhewi (Jun 12, 2010)

jewalker7842 said:


> You don't need a telephone pole to kill a deer, hog, or elk. A well placed 400gr arrow with a sharp COC broadhead will do the trick every time.


No one on here that shoots heavier setups is saying otherwise. That well placed shot is not always 100% just look at all the lost deer threads on here. I can push 600+ grains as fast as most are pushing their 420-450 grainers. Its a no brainer for me. All the light setup guys act like we are saying their setup dont work and they get their panties in twist. Not a single one of the heavy guys said 400 grain setups wont kill deer, the lightweight crowd put those words there themselves. It is what it is and i could care less what any of the experts of AT say. Ill do my thing and you all do yours.


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## plecavalier (Jan 10, 2008)

jewalker7842 said:


> You don't need a telephone pole to kill a deer, hog, or elk. A well placed 400gr arrow with a sharp COC broadhead will do the trick every time.


You're right. I don't need it. Most of time. So how do I predict when I do and when I don't? When is a "good enough" setup not good enough. See you didn't say you'll never need a telephone pole. So you know you might need it. See Overkill vs good enough is a funny debate to me because the one that's got too much will not be faced with not enough whereas as the other will eventually. It's inevitable. I'll get every pass through you get plus the kill when you don't.

I guess you don't need insurance? Never a plan b in your strategies? You shouldn't need any of that either right? When I used to rifle hunt I carried a full magazine to the woods. I would pride myself on never needing a second bullet. Went many years not needing one. I knew one day I would otherwise I wouldn't have brought a magazine but I teased my buddies who took their deer in more than a shot.

One day he didn't go down. Man was I happy I had a second shot. Biggest deer of my life. 14pt 12" brow nearly 300lbs.

I know you have multiple arrows but you know what I mean. Plan b man. Think about it.


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## 3D Pinwheeler (Jan 29, 2007)

https://youtu.be/F6_Mjrq1984


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## enewman (Jun 5, 2007)

3D Pinwheeler said:


> https://youtu.be/F6_Mjrq1984


Randy is completely wrong. Just ask people here on Archerytalk. Haha.


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## plecavalier (Jan 10, 2008)

enewman said:


> Randy is completely wrong. Just ask people here on Archerytalk. Haha.


He's not on AT so he can't possibly be right or even know what he's talking about.


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## Early Ice (Mar 18, 2008)

jewalker7842 said:


> You don't need a telephone pole to kill a deer, hog, or elk. A well placed 400gr arrow with a sharp COC broadhead will do the trick every time.


you are spot on, like other said and I've experienced. I shot 30+ deer in a row over a decade with a arrow like that. One day though you'll realize and say "I wish I had a little more". I had my "awe crap" moment....and when you work so hard and spend so much time, you get so sick to your stomach when that arrow doesn't penetrate. Like PLecavalier said, no one plans on making a not so good shot. I been there. I can pound a rubber deer all year long on a course and never hit the shoulder or leg bone...the whitetail woods isn't the outdoor 3d range, stuff happens.


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## plecavalier (Jan 10, 2008)

Early Ice said:


> you are spot on, like other said and I've experienced. I shot 30+ deer in a row over a decade with a arrow like that. One day though you'll realize and say "I wish I had a little more". I had my "awe crap" moment....and when you work so hard and spend so much time, you get so sick to your stomach when that arrow doesn't penetrate. Like PLecavalier said, no one plans on making a not so good shot. I been there. I can pound a rubber deer all year long on a course and never hit the shoulder or leg bone...the whitetail woods isn't the outdoor 3d range, stuff happens.
> 
> There is something to be said about a heavy arrow too. I don't know why, but it just seems to take the air right out of those animals like you hit em with a sledgehammer. Since i've gone to heavy, the animals just don't take off like a raped ape. It seems like you shocked em in the face with fist. Seriously, I don't know how to explain it. Some deer don't even run. It also has something to do the single blade broadheads. That's another story though.


Single bevel and heavy arrow in the same post. Huh oh. This guy must be talking about that Ashby stuff. Bring on the hate mail haha.


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## adr1601 (Oct 15, 2012)

3D Pinwheeler said:


> https://youtu.be/F6_Mjrq1984


Yeah but he also likes to shoot mechanicals. That pretty much voids his opinion.


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## plecavalier (Jan 10, 2008)

adr1601 said:


> Yeah but he also likes to shoot mechanicals. That pretty much voids his opinion.


lol well, a mechanical with a heavy arrow on whitetail is pretty darn effective.


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## Early Ice (Mar 18, 2008)

plecavalier said:


> Single bevel and heavy arrow in the same post. Huh oh. This guy must be talking about that Ashby stuff. Bring on the hate mail haha.


Too funny, yeah, I deleted that part. I figured someone would hate on me. I see you grabbed that before I edited. LOL

But if you notice, I DID NOT say "bevel". I said BLADE. I figured someone would not like that.


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## plecavalier (Jan 10, 2008)

Early Ice said:


> Too funny, yeah, I deleted that part. I figured someone would hate on me. I see you grabbed that before I edited. LOL


I'm always the front man for the hate. Wouldn't want anyone else getting hurt haha


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## Early Ice (Mar 18, 2008)

plecavalier said:


> I'm always the front man for the hate. Wouldn't want anyone else getting hurt haha


Funny thing about the whole single bevel thing is, when i first started looking into a better penetrating setup....I first looked at what the traditional guys shoot. I figured, if these dudes are shooting these type of tips it's for a reason so why wouldn't I shoot them with a compound. That was it, literally no other thought was put into it. It wasn't until later that I read and learned the "why". I admit, i was hesitant about such a small head...but I think they do the job better than any other tip i've ever used as far as toughness, penetration and if people are into blood, they make em bleed. Idunno, so I shoot a single bevel, why is that so wrong?


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## plecavalier (Jan 10, 2008)

Early Ice said:


> Funny thing about the whole single bevel thing is, when i first started looking into a better penetrating setup....I first looked at what the traditional guys shoot. I figured, if these dudes are shooting these type of tips it's for a reason so why wouldn't I shoot them with a compound. That was it, literally no other thought was put into it. It wasn't until later that I read and learned the "why". I admit, i was hesitant about such a small head...but I think they do the job better than any other tip i've ever used as far as toughness, penetration and if people are into blood, they make em bleed. Idunno, so I shoot a single bevel, why is that so wrong?


That's why we get along. Very similar thought process. I had the exact same thought just as you describe it. I was already shooting a heavy arrow. Always wanting better I realized if these guys are using a specific head at 140fps and getting good results...

And it's funny I don't tell people what to do. I make suggestions. When someone asks what head they should shoot and go on about the fact they're willing to try anything well, I suggest single bevel. When they look it up the first comment is always I can shoot that out if a compound? As though there's some sort of ruleset to deny them the right haha.

Yep if you want the most efficient but least disruptive approach, there is no substitute for an old fashion single bevel head.


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## jewalker7842 (Aug 15, 2011)

Early Ice said:


> you are spot on, like other said and I've experienced. I shot 30+ deer in a row over a decade with a arrow like that. One day though you'll realize and say "I wish I had a little more". I had my "awe crap" moment....and when you work so hard and spend so much time, you get so sick to your stomach when that arrow doesn't penetrate. Like PLecavalier said, no one plans on making a not so good shot. I been there. I can pound a rubber deer all year long on a course and never hit the shoulder or leg bone...the whitetail woods isn't the outdoor 3d range, stuff happens.


Bad shots are going to happen. It's part of hunting. Chances are that craptastic shot you took with 650gr telephone pole isn't going to help you much either. Like most things in archery it's about moderation. There comes a point in time where heavy is too heavy.


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## jewalker7842 (Aug 15, 2011)

hunterhewi said:


> No one on here that shoots heavier setups is saying otherwise. That well placed shot is not always 100% just look at all the lost deer threads on here. I can push 600+ grains as fast as most are pushing their 420-450 grainers. Its a no brainer for me. All the light setup guys act like we are saying their setup dont work and they get their panties in twist. Not a single one of the heavy guys said 400 grain setups wont kill deer, the lightweight crowd put those words there themselves. It is what it is and i could care less what any of the experts of AT say. Ill do my thing and you all do yours.


The only people that are getting their panties in a bunch are the "heavy or die" people lol. Y'all get so offended when someone says that there is a point where heavy is too heavy.


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## alex.vogel99 (Apr 1, 2014)

jewalker7842 said:


> Bad shots are going to happen. It's part of hunting. Chances are that craptastic shot you took with 650gr telephone pole isn't going to help you much either. Like most things in archery it's about moderation. There comes a point in time where heavy is too heavy.


maybe true that you can go too heavy, but 650 is not.


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## plecavalier (Jan 10, 2008)

jewalker7842 said:


> The only people that are getting their panties in a bunch are the "heavy or die" people lol. Y'all get so offended when someone says that there is a point where heavy is too heavy.


So if you're here to tell us where the magical point is where is it? When is it too heavy and why? Keep in mind the only person to spit out a specific number is the OP who in case I need to remind you is standing on your side of the proverbial fence I believe based on his choice of words.


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## Early Ice (Mar 18, 2008)

plecavalier said:


> So if you're here to tell us where the magical point is where is it? When is it too heavy and why? Keep in mind the only person to spit out a specific number is the OP who in case I need to remind you is standing on your side of the proverbial fence I believe based on his choice of words.


Too heavy, too slow....PLecavalier made me stop on a dime when he questioned me about being too slow. What is too slow? No seriously though....I literally felt like a dumbazz. What is too slow? after pondering that for a while, I realized that there is no such thing to an extent. I was shooting 213 FPS at 600 grains and I said i'd like to be faster than that "cause that's getting a bit slow". 

I was worried about an arrow traveling 213 feet in one second and I only shoot to 25 yards.....I'm going to leave it at that.


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## jewalker7842 (Aug 15, 2011)

alex.vogel99 said:


> maybe true that you can go too heavy, but 650 is not.


I never said 650 was too heavy, but it's definitely too heavy for my taste. As long as we all agree there does come to a point where there is too heavy. For me 650 would be waaaaay to heavy for a 50lb bow. It would cut my shooting distance in half as I like to practice long range. It would not be practical for me. I'm glad it works for you if that is what shoot.


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## jewalker7842 (Aug 15, 2011)

plecavalier said:


> So if you're here to tell us where the magical point is where is it? When is it too heavy and why? Keep in mind the only person to spit out a specific number is the OP who in case I need to remind you is standing on your side of the proverbial fence I believe based on his choice of words.


That magical point is all personal preference. In my opinion when you can can't shoot past 20-30 yards without having the arrow do a divebomb like an pelican into the bay. I think that may be too heavy. That is an example of my too heavy.


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## 3D Pinwheeler (Jan 29, 2007)

How do these trad bow guys do it? They probably just snicker reading these threads


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## jewalker7842 (Aug 15, 2011)

3D Pinwheeler said:


> How do these trad bow guys do it? They probably just snicker reading these threads


They also do not shoot past 20 yards on the game most of the time. These are two different worlds.


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## 3D Pinwheeler (Jan 29, 2007)

How far is your average shot????


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## Early Ice (Mar 18, 2008)

jewalker7842 said:


> I never said 650 was too heavy, but it's definitely too heavy for my taste. As long as we all agree there does come to a point where there is too heavy. For me 650 would be waaaaay to heavy for a 50lb bow. It would cut my shooting distance in half as I like to practice long range. It would not be practical for me. I'm glad it works for you if that is what shoot.


I'm in your same boat. i'm shooting 51lbs, 598 grains. My arrow on paper seem slow or "like a pelican dive bombing a dead sheephead" but when you shoot outside or in the woods, they are so darn quiet no one would have a clue. I've had people ask how fast my bow was thinking it's fast just because it's so quiet. 

My setup may be slow to "mainstream hunting" nowadays but that son of a gun throws those meats sticks pretty effectively.

I personally set my limit at 30, but I can't remember the last deer I've killed that was over 24 yards.....I think 2005 in illinois I shot a buck at 31 yards and I didn't have a limit back then, i was a young dummy back then.


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## plecavalier (Jan 10, 2008)

jewalker7842 said:


> They also do not shoot past 20 yards on the game most of the time. These are two different worlds.


I just finished up the podcasts of Fred Bear's field notes in which he describes on multiple occasions shooting 60 on elk and moose. He's got a heavy arrow and I doubt his recurve at the time was anywhere over 140.

I shoot my 775gn arrows at (50#/29") 40 yards and they do not look like they divebomb as you say. I'm also not aiming at the sky. 

All this is misnomer based on not having actually field tested anything over 500. If you shoot game under 40 you should try a 650gn arrow. Enevn if it's just for fun. I know guys shooting 800 at 80 yards no problem. The flight path of the arrow is totally a matter of perspective. Just try it.


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## Gruder (Feb 19, 2016)

Not sure if this has been mentioned yet but
The poll thread; whitetail arrow weight, fits in perfectly with this thread. It clearly shows twice as many archers choosing 400-450 (111) over the 54 or so +500 crowd. So for whatever reason, a perceived balance of the two, longer practice range, or just a decision it's "enough", more whitetail hunters, on AT at least, are choosing some sort of balance. Not to say they disagree that heavier may benefit necessarily but still they choose a balance for whatever reason.


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## shabbos1 (Jul 28, 2017)

jewalker7842 said:


> They also do not shoot past 20 yards on the game most of the time. These are two different worlds.


I'd be willing to bet that if people took an honest assessment (leaving Internet bravado and exaggeration out of the equation) of their average whitetail shot distance hunting from a treestand in the Northeast, the figure would probably be 20 yards or less. It doesn't take an advanced degree to figure out what type of arrow benefits a person in that scenario.


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## plecavalier (Jan 10, 2008)

Gruder said:


> Not sure if this has been mentioned yet but
> The poll thread; whitetail arrow weight, fits in perfectly with this thread. It clearly shows twice as many archers choosing 400-450 (111) over the 54 or so +500 crowd. So for whatever reason, a perceived balance of the two, longer practice range, or just a decision it's "enough", more whitetail hunters, on AT at least, are choosing some sort of balance. Not to say they disagree that heavier may benefit necessarily but still they choose a balance for whatever reason.


I bet more than half of them are shooting that balance because their friend or shop told them it's the cat's meow. And again, any 7-8gpp arrow will do good but it's not the cat's meow because it can be stopped and the risk management of it is that the benefits of a heavier (10-12 gpp) arrow outweigh the risks. The I it risk is trajectory and if you allow yourself to actually try it you'll likely discover it's a moot point.


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## hunterhewi (Jun 12, 2010)

jewalker7842 said:


> The only people that are getting their panties in a bunch are the "heavy or die" people lol. Y'all get so offended when someone says that there is a point where heavy is too heavy.


We are talking 6-650 grains which is not too heavy. I see a bunch of the 400 grain guys getting pretty offended themselves. Then you contradict yourself saying that 650 is not too heavy. No one is shooting much over that so why did u feel the need to state that we are “shooting logs” at 650 grains? Especially when im pushing it as fast or faster than your setup. So tell me how my 600+ grain has more arch than your 400 grain at the same or slower speeds????? I like being in the 260-275 fps range ill build my arrows as heavy as i need to get there


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## 3D Pinwheeler (Jan 29, 2007)

shabbos1 said:


> I'd be willing to bet that if people took an honest assessment (leaving Internet bravado and exaggeration out of the equation) of their average whitetail shot distance typical of those a person might encounter hunting out of a treestand in the Northeast, the figure would probably be 20 yards or less. It doesn't take an advanced degree to figure out what type of arrow benefits a person in that scenario.


I'm close to 100 deer shot with a bow in 30 years of hunting. I'd say 75% have been inside 20 yards. 95% inside 30 yards. Thats why I bowhunt... I want them close. I'd take a 10 yarder all day.
I do practice out to 80 yards just to fine tune form.


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## plecavalier (Jan 10, 2008)

hunterhewi said:


> We are talking 6-650 grains which is not too heavy. I see a bunch of the 490 grain guys getting pretty offended themselves. Then you contradict yourself saying that 650 is not too heavy. No one is shooting much over that so why did u feel the need to state that we are “shooting logs” at 650 grains? Especially when im pushing it as fast or faster than your setup. So tell me how that 600+ grain has more arch than your 400 grain at the same or slower speeds?????


Haha. I think it's in reference to my pic. I'm pushing almost 16gpp. But that's just me. 650 is not a log. It's 100gn over what others are posting and fwiw I'm only neither 100 over that. It's certainly not subtle but it's not as huge as people make it out to be. Too many guys starring at numbers on a computer screen and not actually building that arrow and shooting it to see.


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## Mgivy4 (May 9, 2018)

650 sounds fun but overkill ha. I like a 500+ with a 70lb bow. Good enough for about anything in North America!


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## alex.vogel99 (Apr 1, 2014)

plecavalier said:


> Haha. I think it's in reference to my pic. I'm pushing almost 16gpp. But that's just me. 650 is not a log. It's 100gn over what others are posting and fwiw I'm only neither 100 over that. It's certainly not subtle but it's not as huge as people make it out to be. Too many guys starring at numbers on a computer screen and not actually building that arrow and shooting it to see.


i would bet a lot of people can hold a 550 grain arrow in one hand and a 650 in the other and not be able to tell the difference. Lets switch up our unit of measurement quick and look at the difference between the two. How much different is 650 grains to 550 grains, but measured in grams? Answer: its like 7 grams. Ounces? Like 1/4 of an ounce. 

Guys act like a 650 grain arrow is shooting a full grown redwood out of your dang bow.


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## hunterhewi (Jun 12, 2010)

plecavalier said:


> Haha. I think it's in reference to my pic. I'm pushing almost 16gpp. But that's just me. 650 is not a log. It's 100gn over what others are posting and fwiw I'm only neither 100 over that. It's certainly not subtle but it's not as huge as people make it out to be. Too many guys starring at numbers on a computer screen and not actually building that arrow and shooting it to see.


I agree 100% just like how everyone says 20% FOC nose dive


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## plecavalier (Jan 10, 2008)

alex.vogel99 said:


> i would bet a lot of people can hold a 550 grain arrow in one hand and a 650 in the other and not be able to tell the difference. Lets switch up our unit of measurement quick and look at the difference between the two. How much different is 650 grains to 550 grains, but measured in grams? Answer: its like 7 grams. Ounces? Like 1/4 of an ounce.
> 
> Guys act like a 650 grain arrow is shooting a full grown redwood out of your dang bow.


I completely agree but you'll probably get a lot of flak because archery needs to be a little more precise than ounces and even grams but it does put it into perspective.


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## plecavalier (Jan 10, 2008)

hunterhewi said:


> I agree 100% just like how everyone says 20% FOC nose dive


Yep. It makes sense to think it initially but that doesn't make it right or true.


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## hunterhewi (Jun 12, 2010)

Ive never been on the extreme side of of FOC but i have been building my arrows to around 20% for the last 6-7 years and have had great results


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## loujo61 (Apr 29, 2005)

3D Pinwheeler said:


> I'm close to 100 deer shot with a bow in 30 years of hunting. I'd say 75% have been inside 20 yards. 95% inside 30 yards. Thats why I bowhunt... I want them close. I'd take a 10 yarder all day.
> I do practice out to 80 yards just to fine tune form.


Big shot.


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## loujo61 (Apr 29, 2005)

hunterhewi said:


> I agree 100% just like how everyone says 20% FOC nose dive





plecavalier said:


> Yep. It makes sense to think it initially but that doesn't make it right or true.


It's all relevant to weight distribution and propulsion.


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## KSQ2 (Oct 10, 2007)

If I was hunting out west, I would not shoot a 670 gr arrow, that’s just me, some guys do it I’m sure. On the other hand where I hunt in the Midwest, I’ve made a decision not to shoot over 30 yards. I’ve had some bad things happen on 30+ yards with 412 grain arrows that I shot for years. One of the things I personally like about a heavy arrow is it limits my shot distance. This is just me, I’m not telling anyone to limit themselves to what I limit myself to. At the same time, I bet most bowhunters average shots over the last ten years of their deer hunting doesn’t exceed 25 yards.


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## roosiebull (Oct 3, 2010)

jewalker7842 said:


> They also do not shoot past 20 yards on the game most of the time. These are two different worlds.


Most of my shooting at game with my compound is inside 20yds, it’s a different world for sure, but in my world, not due to shooting distance. Coincidentally, I will be shooting a recurve this year, and realize the difficulty I face, but not because of range or arrow weight. I will never chronic my recurve, but I won’t be reaching 180fps. That aspect doesn’t really matter, it’s always been fast enough, it’s the human perspective that has changed


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## shabbos1 (Jul 28, 2017)

KSQ2 said:


> If I was hunting out west, I would not shoot a 670 gr arrow, that’s just me, some guys do it I’m sure. On the other hand where I hunt in the Midwest, I’ve made a decision not to shoot over 30 yards. I’ve had some bad things happen on 30+ yards with 412 grain arrows that I shot for years. One of the things I personally like about a heavy arrow is it limits my shot distance. This is just me, I’m not telling anyone to limit themselves to what I limit myself to. At the same time, I bet most bowhunters average shots over the last ten years of their deer hunting doesn’t exceed 25 yards.


For most in the midwest and out east it's probably significantly less than 25 yards.


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## plecavalier (Jan 10, 2008)

One thing we're always type of topic is Arrow drop difference. And that's such a glass half empty way to look at things in my opinion. I prefer to look at what I called point of aim instead because if you think of it the business end of the trajectory Applebee's with your form and your position where the arrow leaves not where it impacts the arrow is going to go where you point the PINso it doesn't matter where your PIN was for your light or Arrow once you've readjusted your pins.

So when we talk about point of aim were talking about how much you need to move your bow arm up to get to the same point of impact. Any gas is also an interesting way to look at it we'll cover that one later

On my boat which is 300 IBO at 65 lb 29 inch draw the difference between a 400 and 600 grain Arrow in point of aim was 3 in. So the drop rate and point of impact difference may very well be significant but I think we can all agree that the point of aim but having to move your arm 3in is not significant. On a fast bowl rated at 3:40 it would no doubt be even less.

With the same setup my pinga was 3 mm which in my opinion is also insignificant but many have disagreed over I think the disagreement there comes down to guys wanting all their pins in the vitals at 30 yards.as I've mentioned before if that's a requirement for you we are not on the same page and can't really have these discussions. I don't disagree that it's nice to have but if it's a requirement...


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## roosiebull (Oct 3, 2010)

KSQ2 said:


> If I was hunting out west, I would not shoot a 670 gr arrow, that’s just me, some guys do it I’m sure. On the other hand where I hunt in the Midwest, I’ve made a decision not to shoot over 30 yards. I’ve had some bad things happen on 30+ yards with 412 grain arrows that I shot for years. One of the things I personally like about a heavy arrow is it limits my shot distance. This is just me, I’m not telling anyone to limit themselves to what I limit myself to. At the same time, I bet most bowhunters average shots over the last ten years of their deer hunting doesn’t exceed 25 yards.


Just curious, how does a heavy arrow limit your shot distance? Don’t own a range finder? I shoot better at long range with a heavy arrow, they are more forgiving on form. Beyond about 35yds, regardless of arrow speed out of the bow, it’s pretty important to have precise range, arrows are all slow projectiles, none shoot flat, and they all start falling out past about 35yds.

For a disclaimer, I’m not pushing anything, and think folks should shoot what is practical for them, but I do think these subjects will be better understood explaining their “whats” and “whys”


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## jdmecomber (Jul 2, 2011)

interesting


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## Early Ice (Mar 18, 2008)

3D Pinwheeler said:


> I'm close to 100 deer shot with a bow in 30 years of hunting. I'd say 75% have been inside 20 yards. 95% inside 30 yards. Thats why I bowhunt... I want them close. I'd take a 10 yarder all day.
> I do practice out to 80 yards just to fine tune form.


I don't know exactly how many deer i've killed, but I could probably think back and recall almost every one....However, I do agree 100% about being close. If I wanted to shoot to 40-50 yards i'd go gun hunting. Everyone hunts for different reasons. Some people like to brag they shot a whitetail at 60 yards. Personally when I hear those stories I completely stop listening to the rest of what they have to say and just nod my head.


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## enewman (Jun 5, 2007)

Early Ice said:


> I don't know exactly how many deer i've killed, but I could probably think back and recall almost every one....However, I do agree 100% about being close. If I wanted to shoot to 40-50 yards i'd go gun hunting. Everyone hunts for different reasons. Some people like to brag they shot a whitetail at 60 yards. Personally when I hear those stories I completely stop listening to the rest of what they have to say and just nod my head.


I have only ever shot one deer at 40 yards. All my other deer are normally under 20 yards. I like it up close.


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## plecavalier (Jan 10, 2008)

enewman said:


> I have only ever shot one deer at 40 yards. All my other deer are normally under 20 yards. I like it up close.


Yeah you probably leave the light on to.


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## enewman (Jun 5, 2007)

plecavalier said:


> Yeah you probably leave the light on to.


And?


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## olehemlock (Dec 10, 2004)

A lot of old timers can remember when we were shooting 600gr plus arrows we had 10, 20 and 30 yard pins on our bows and for good reason, those logs fell out of the sky.


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## enewman (Jun 5, 2007)

olehemlock said:


> A lot of old-timers can remember when we were shooting 600gr plus arrows we had 10, 20 and 30-yard pins on our bows and for good reason, those logs fell out of the sky.


I can also remember shooting 450gr arrows same speed as my 635gr now


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## loujo61 (Apr 29, 2005)

plecavalier said:


> One thing we're always type of topic is Arrow drop difference. And that's such a glass half empty way to look at things in my opinion. I prefer to look at what I called point of aim instead because if you think of it the business end of the trajectory Applebee's with your form and your position where the arrow leaves not where it impacts the arrow is going to go where you point the PINso it doesn't matter where your PIN was for your light or Arrow once you've readjusted your pins.
> 
> So when we talk about point of aim were talking about how much you need to move your bow arm up to get to the same point of impact. Any gas is also an interesting way to look at it we'll cover that one later
> 
> ...


What???

If i'm walking in and a buck jumps up I can draw back and if all of my pins are in his vitals I know he's in range. Also up in the tree @280fps my first pin covers 0-25 yards and if i'm off a yard or two with my second pin (30 yards) I miss small. It's a reassurance luxury plan.


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## loujo61 (Apr 29, 2005)

olehemlock said:


> A lot of old timers can remember when we were shooting 600gr plus arrows we had 10, 20 and 30 yard pins on our bows and for good reason, those logs fell out of the sky.


Yup


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## olehemlock (Dec 10, 2004)

When I was younger I was shooting 80 to 84 pound bows, York Tracker then later original Browning Mirage, the York would be equivalent to the 60 pound bows I own today the Mirage would probably be faster.


enewman said:


> I can also remember shooting 450gr arrows same speed as my 635gr now


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## loujo61 (Apr 29, 2005)

3D Pinwheeler said:


> I'm close to 100 deer shot with a bow in 30 years of hunting. I'd say 75% have been inside 20 yards. 95% inside 30 yards. Thats why I bowhunt... I want them close. I'd take a 10 yarder all day.
> I do practice out to 80 yards just to fine tune form.





Early Ice said:


> I don't know exactly how many deer i've killed, but I could probably think back and recall almost every one....However, I do agree 100% about being close. If I wanted to shoot to 40-50 yards i'd go gun hunting. Everyone hunts for different reasons. Some people like to brag they shot a whitetail at 60 yards. Personally when I hear those stories I completely stop listening to the rest of what they have to say and just nod my head.


Don't let him ^^ fool you, he hunts with a rig that shoots 290fps and lets fly quite often at 40+ yards. He's a cheater...


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## 3D Pinwheeler (Jan 29, 2007)

loujo61 said:


> Don't let him ^^ fool you, he hunts with a rig that shoots 290fps and lets fly quite often at 40+ yards. He's a cheater...


Lol....I didn't say all. I love a 10 yarder sometimes they won't cooperate


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## plecavalier (Jan 10, 2008)

loujo61 said:


> What???
> 
> If i'm walking in and a buck jumps up I can draw back and if all of my pins are in his vitals I know he's in range. Also up in the tree @280fps my first pin covers 0-25 yards and if i'm off a yard or two with my second pin (30 yards) I miss small. It's a reassurance luxury plan.


It's always special chatting with you Lou. If a buck jumps up the last thing on my mind is "quick shoot" unless my rifle is in hand. If you don't even have time to range him you shouldn't shoot. Our definition of bowhunting is very different.


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## 3D Pinwheeler (Jan 29, 2007)

loujo61 said:


> What???
> 
> If i'm walking in and a buck jumps up I can draw back and if all of my pins are in his vitals I know he's in range. Also up in the tree @280fps my first pin covers 0-25 yards and if i'm off a yard or two with my second pin (30 yards) I miss small. It's a reassurance luxury plan.


You know if you extend your housing from your bow more your pins will get closer.


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## loujo61 (Apr 29, 2005)

3D Pinwheeler said:


> You know if you extend your housing from your bow more your pins will get closer.


No, they will be farther apart.


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## loujo61 (Apr 29, 2005)

plecavalier said:


> It's always special chatting with you Lou. If a buck jumps up the last thing on my mind is "quick shoot" unless my rifle is in hand. If you don't even have time to range him you shouldn't shoot. Our definition of bowhunting is very different.


I don't need an EZ V sight I just use my pins.


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## KSQ2 (Oct 10, 2007)

roosiebull said:


> Just curious, how does a heavy arrow limit your shot distance? Don’t own a range finder? I shoot better at long range with a heavy arrow, they are more forgiving on form. Beyond about 35yds, regardless of arrow speed out of the bow, it’s pretty important to have precise range, arrows are all slow projectiles, none shoot flat, and they all start falling out past about 35yds.
> 
> For a disclaimer, I’m not pushing anything, and think folks should shoot what is practical for them, but I do think these subjects will be better understood explaining their “whats” and “whys”


It’s just a personal limit I’ve placed on my shooting. I choose to use 3 pins set at 15, 25, and 30 yards. I do use a range finder, but mostly just to range landmarks around my stand. I do practice out to 50 yards, since I have an adjustable sight, I just don’t allow myself to move it while hunting.


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## copterdoc (Oct 9, 2005)

enewman said:


> Randy is completely wrong. Just ask people here on Archerytalk. Haha.





plecavalier said:


> He's not on AT so he can't possibly be right or even know what he's talking about.


Did either of you actually watch the video?


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## plecavalier (Jan 10, 2008)

copterdoc said:


> Did either of you actually watch the video?


Haha. Sarcasm bud.


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## copterdoc (Oct 9, 2005)

plecavalier said:


> Haha. Sarcasm bud.


Sure it was.





































(BTW, _that_ actually was sarcasm.)


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## plecavalier (Jan 10, 2008)

copterdoc said:


> Sure it was.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I don't play games bud. If you have something to say say it or move on. Did actually watch the video? Because a lot of what he said contradicts you statements. I've been saying most of that for years.


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## copterdoc (Oct 9, 2005)

plecavalier said:


> ............Because a lot of what he said contradicts you statements.....


 I'd like you to point out one thing he said, that contradicts anything that I've said in this thread.


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## copterdoc (Oct 9, 2005)

I can point out at least three things he said, that contradict things that _you've_ said in this thread.

And he's right about all of them.


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## plecavalier (Jan 10, 2008)

copterdoc said:


> I can point out at least three things he said, that contradict things that _you've_ said in this thread.
> 
> And he's right about all of them.


Knock yourself out bud I'm done arguing with you.


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## copterdoc (Oct 9, 2005)

plecavalier said:


> Knock yourself out bud I'm done arguing with you.


I never saw you actually present an argument.

Lots of contradiction, but no argument.


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## Fortyneck (Oct 8, 2010)

Man this thread has some serious momentum... uh... er... I mean kinetic energy... hmmm penetration potential? :confused3:



jewalker7842 said:


> They also do not shoot past 20 yards on the game most of the time. These are two different worlds.


Might be different mentalities, but same world. Hunting whitetail in the northeast usually means 20-25yrds



jewalker7842 said:


> That magical point is all personal preference. In my opinion when you can can't shoot past 20-30 yards without having the arrow do a divebomb like an pelican into the bay. I think that may be too heavy. That is an example of my too heavy.


100% of arrow shot out of a treestand divebomb like a pelican into the bay. Food for thought.


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## plecavalier (Jan 10, 2008)

copterdoc said:


> I never saw you actually present an argument.
> 
> Lots of contradiction, but no argument.


LMFAO. You read what you want not what's written. You've wanted your spot on the block list. Good riddance.


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## Troy F (Oct 30, 2015)

Mostly because it breaks things.
With stupid consistency. When things dont go right.

But here's a dated thing. Back in the day, when compounds were new. I PROMISE you those arrows weren't going 180. We only had arrows over 525 grains and cut on contacts. Heck, I remember when the Thunderhead was so awesomely new.
We never expected to leave arrows in animals. 

Now a days. It's normal to have 12' of arrow sticking out and some joker says....wait for it...."I must have hit a rib".
Whew. There's a lot of them.








You may now return to your regularly scheduled programming. Good job!


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## Lugg (Feb 17, 2019)

Fortyneck said:


> Man this thread has some serious momentum... uh... er... I mean kinetic energy... hmmm penetration potential?


This thread is completely penetrated.


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## Beartraxx (Sep 22, 2018)

Troy F said:


> Mostly because it breaks things.
> With stupid consistency. When things dont go right.
> 
> But here's a dated thing. Back in the day, when compounds were new. I PROMISE you those arrows weren't going 180. We only had arrows over 525 grains and cut on contacts. Heck, I remember when the Thunderhead was so awesomely new.
> ...


Man, I remember those days! My son just asked me today if years ago I thought that I'd ever see 300 fps bows.. nope...
I can remember drooling over a Mc Pherson , spoiler i believe. If memory serves it was somewhere in the low to mid 200s ibo.... SCREAMING FAST!! I was shooting a Pearson Renegade at that time. I thought that was quite a stick.
Today I can shoot a much faster arrow of the same approximate weight as I was shooting way back then. 
I hunt in the thick stuff, on the ground in a ghillie suit. A heavy arrow on a quiet bow that I still consider to be quite fast is perfect for me. I honestly feel like until you've hunted with a trad bow or a really slow compound you have no idea how fast today's bows really are. We used to kill deer years ago with bows that I doubt most modern archers would even use if they had to. This is not meant to be an insult to anyone here. Just observations. I absolutely hate seeing deer run off on some of these videos with an arrow waving around in their body like a flag on a freaking moped!


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## Beartraxx (Sep 22, 2018)

...


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## Early Ice (Mar 18, 2008)

Troy F said:


> Mostly because it breaks things.
> With stupid consistency. When things dont go right.
> 
> But here's a dated thing. Back in the day, when compounds were new. I PROMISE you those arrows weren't going 180. We only had arrows over 525 grains and cut on contacts. Heck, I remember when the Thunderhead was so awesomely new.
> ...


I love blowing through ribs, That sound can't be imitated by any other means in the world. Just a dead thump. Gotta love it.


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## plecavalier (Jan 10, 2008)

Beartraxx said:


> I honestly feel like until you've hunted with a trad bow or a really slow compound you have no idea how fast today's bows really are. We used to kill deer years ago with bows that I doubt most modern archers would even use if they had to.


Yes! Better yet everyone should start with a recurve to learn archery. Develope that instinct and learn how an arrow flies. Then move on to fast compounds if desired.

Much like learning a stick shift makes you a better driver  wait, what's a "clutch"? ....


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## deadquiet (Jan 25, 2005)

enewman said:


> Randy is completely wrong. Just ask people here on Archerytalk. Haha.


At 1:36 in the video he says he has lost more mule deer do to noise than ANY other reason. If you don't know Randy his a failry good archer...…….lol. Unlike many folks here he has a proven track record not just keyboard proficiency. :wink: I really felt the same way......that's why my screen name is dead quiet and I have spent the last 30 years working to make my bows more quiet. Like Ulmer said in the video a heavier arrow makes the bow more quiet and more forgiving....and those are HUGE for a hunter. 

That's exactly what I have seen first hand. So again I'm NOT saying you have to shoot a heavy arrow and that is relative anyway but all you folks denying archery physics and saying there is NO advantage to a heavier arrow are showing you really don't understand the basics. 

There ARE advantages to shooting lighter faster arrows too...…..but for many of us that have tried it those advantages aren't worth the disadvantages the also bring.....

Of course enewman said it best...….what does Randy know compared to the guys here on AT? 

PS he also said a stiff shaft has worked better for him as well...…….sounds familiar too.


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## roosiebull (Oct 3, 2010)

plecavalier said:


> Yes! Better yet everyone should start with a recurve to learn archery. Develope that instinct and learn how an arrow flies. Then move on to fast compounds if desired.
> 
> Much like learning a stick shift makes you a better driver  wait, what's a "clutch"? ....


It has sure taught me a lot, and after thousands of arrows, I have just scratched the surface. There was a lot I didn’t learn in my 20something years of shooting compounds.

I thought I was a decent archer, shooting compounds well, but I never have been. I know some will disagree, but I believe Joel turner when he says everyone has target panic


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## plecavalier (Jan 10, 2008)

roosiebull said:


> It has sure taught me a lot, and after thousands of arrows, I have just scratched the surface. There was a lot I didn’t learn in my 20something years of shooting compounds.
> 
> I thought I was a decent archer, shooting compounds well, but I never have been. I know some will disagree, but I believe Joel turner when he says everyone has target panic


Why don't you cross over to the dark side and get you a lever bow? You'll never go back. It's all there: heavy arrow, compound, fingers, instinctive. It's blissful man.


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## loujo61 (Apr 29, 2005)

plecavalier said:


> Why don't you cross over to the dark side and get you a lever bow? You'll never go back. It's all there: heavy arrow, compound, fingers, instinctive. It's blissful man.


Ignorance is bliss


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## plecavalier (Jan 10, 2008)

deadquiet said:


> At 1:36 in the video he says he has lost more mule deer do to noise than ANY other reason. If you don't know Randy his a failry good archer...…….lol. Unlike many folks here he has a proven track record not just keyboard proficiency. :wink: I really felt the same way......that's why my screen name is dead quiet and I have spent the last 30 years working to make my bows more quiet. Like Ulmer said in the video a heavier arrow makes the bow more quiet and more forgiving....and those are HUGE for a hunter.
> 
> That's exactly what I have seen first hand. So again I'm NOT saying you have to shoot a heavy arrow and that is relative anyway but all you folks denying archery physics and saying there is NO advantage to a heavier arrow are showing you really don't understand the basics.
> 
> ...


He also stated that slowing down his arrow has #1 increased forgiveness which increased accuracy and #2 increasing FoC and arrow weight improved penetration. I have and so have many others stated for several years that slowing things down has advantages. Yet people are still consistently trying to increase velocity at all cost. Those "costs" include critical aspects that are not worth the benefits. People here are saying their miss less because they have a faster arrow and all their pins are in the vitals. That's all for nothing if you're arrow doesn't go where the pins are because your setup is too touchy. Slowing things down increases consistency. There's more value in that then having all the pins in the vitals.


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## loujo61 (Apr 29, 2005)

roosiebull said:


> It has sure taught me a lot, and after thousands of arrows, I have just scratched the surface. There was a lot I didn’t learn in my 20something years of shooting compounds.
> 
> I thought I was a decent archer, shooting compounds well, but I never have been. I know some will disagree, but I believe Joel turner when he says everyone has target panic


Shooting a recurve is not going to cure your target panic


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## plecavalier (Jan 10, 2008)

loujo61 said:


> Ignorance is bliss


Ignorance. Excuse me?


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## roosiebull (Oct 3, 2010)

plecavalier said:


> Why don't you cross over to the dark side and get you a lever bow? You'll never go back. It's all there: heavy arrow, compound, fingers, instinctive. It's blissful man.


I seriously doubt I will ever shoot any bow with more than one string again. A recurve will kill anything I will shoot at. I love the simplicity of the weapon


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## plecavalier (Jan 10, 2008)

roosiebull said:


> I seriously doubt I will ever shoot any bow with more than one string again. A recurve will kill anything I will shoot at. I love the simplicity of the weapon


That's certainly respectable. And I agree. I might be the one making a change one day actually. I can feel it calling me.


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## roosiebull (Oct 3, 2010)

plecavalier said:


> That's certainly respectable. And I agree. I might be the one making a change one day actually. I can feel it calling me.


It has made shooting an obsession for me.. never would have thought.


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## plecavalier (Jan 10, 2008)

roosiebull said:


> It has made shooting an obsession for me.. never would have thought.


Yeah it's a beautiful thing isn't it. When I took my sight off my Oneida I felt like a kid again.


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## catkinson (Jul 17, 2007)

*2219*

Killed my first pope and young buck in 89 with a pawnshop compound bow using my fingers and no sights LOL
That thing probably wasn’t shooting 200 ft./s but I found the 2219 shaft buried in the ground on the other side. Also was using a Walmart special three blade cut on contact 
I got caught up in the light weight arrow mechanical hype but have since returned to my roots
I have not ever shot a deer over 22 yards, in my neck of the woods speed is not an issue but quietness is


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## laur (Sep 6, 2017)

Fortyneck said:


> Man this thread has some serious momentum... uh... er... I mean kinetic energy... hmmm penetration potential? :confused3:


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## Timredbow (Oct 24, 2013)

Blade1970 said:


> I know I will get some crap for posting this. Just a little feedback. I have bow hunted every single year since 85 and have harvested over 300 dear because I live on a farm with a crop damage stamp. My old bow shot 302 fps and I used a gold tip at 8.2 grains per inch with spitfire tips (100 grain) and since I hunt on the ground I always get a straight pass through on a deer. I see so many new hunters going with much heavier arrows. Almost all the misses in archery is due to the drop of the arrow and yet it seems like the new trend is to hunt with these heavy arrows. Mine goes stright through sometimes 30-40 yrds past where I hit the deer. Did I miss something in the last few years for the heavy arrow thing?


It is for the added kinetic energy from the weight


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## schreib (Jul 16, 2011)

_loujo61: "how many more inches of drop should I expect if I add 250 grains to my 400 grain arrow? "_
*. . .probably 10 to 18" more drop, of course, depending on your draw weight and length. But don't ask us, check yourself. It is WORTH doing.
*
It is a LOT of drop when you start shooting heavy arrows past 20 yds.

Summary of above and other, similar discussions, just my opinion too: 
-- Don't shoot long shots unless you are desperate. Why? because it is not fair chase to the animal due to likely mis-hit and wound but not killing animal; it is a low probability hit-- much less kill; it proves YOU are narcissistic and only want to prove what a great shot you are. Is that what you want to tell others?
-- Instead of long shots take short shots proving that you are a good sport, a good woodsman / HUNTER, you understand how to place a stand, play the wind, and be quiet in order to get a short shot. This means more than taking a long shot where none of those things matter. A similar shot is what happens when someone with a long gun and 25x, $2000 scope takes an elk at 800 yards. That shows nothing about being a hunter or woodsman. It shows he practices long shots and probably paid a guide big bucks to get into that place.
-- USE heavy arrows because they are for BIG game, because heavy means quiet too, because they are for SHORT shots with little, relative drop, because they are most effective under heavy forest cover and able to make bone hits of less consequence when your aim is imperfect.
-- Don't use heavy arrows for smaller animals, for long shots, for proving your bow shoots faster than the Jones's
-- USE the right arrow and draw weight for the animal, as needed.

I use 460 grain arrows, shot only 232 fps at the bow, and kill deer every year; if lucky, a turkey too. Big deal. If I was going after bear or moose I would go to 650 grains and practice with 65 to 70# pulls instead of my present 60# x 26" draw. I would become an expert months before going on that hunt. Likewise, if presented with a 12 pt buck at 35 yards through heavy cover, I simply would NOT take that shot without having practiced that long with a heavier arrow and setup. Instead, for that moment in time, I would wait and try to lure him in closer. Life is simple here.


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## plecavalier (Jan 10, 2008)

schreib said:


> _loujo61: "how many more inches of drop should I expect if I add 250 grains to my 400 grain arrow? "_
> *. . .probably 10 to 18" more drop, of course, depending on your draw weight and length. But don't ask us, check yourself. It is WORTH doing.
> *
> It is a LOT of drop when you start shooting heavy arrows past 20 yds.
> ...


Also, and I elude to this earlier and was called ignorant.... Look at difference in point if aim rather than arrow drop.


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## 40Caliber (Mar 21, 2005)

All I know is I shot through the chest cavity of a 325 900lb Bull with an Alpha Max 35 on 60 pounds , with a 360 gr. ACC , spitfire mechanical , at 265 fps.


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## shootstraight (Apr 28, 2005)

40Caliber said:


> All I know is I shot through the chest cavity of a 325 900lb Bull with an Alpha Max 35 on 60 pounds , with a 360 gr. ACC , spitfire mechanical , at 265 fps.


There’s going to be cases both ways. Back about 10 years ago I shot my nicest buck with a very similar set up as yours with regards to speed, my arrow was 390 grain though. Hit it right in the burner with a 3 blade spitfire at 28 yards, 61 lb older Elite Energy. He took off with a foot of the arrow waving from the side of his rib cage. Piled up in 80 yards but no blood trail. I’ll never shoot that light of an arrow again, you might feel the same if (when) it happens to you. I just want every opportunity to make sure my arrow is going through the animal.


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## roosiebull (Oct 3, 2010)

loujo61 said:


> Shooting a recurve is not going to cure your target panic


Haha... really?


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## BigFish7 (Oct 19, 2017)

jewalker7842 said:


> alex.vogel99 said:
> 
> 
> > maybe true that you can go too heavy, but 650 is not.
> ...


If anybody’s willing to sacrifice two arrows I’m willing to try an extreme build. I have 30” 2514’s, I could fit a 2317 inside, put a 2712 outside, and make a 30” arrow @35.12gpi that would bare shaft weigh 1054ish grains. Add a 325 grain BH, 21 grain insert, 20 grain lumenok, 3 9” wraps, 4 fletch 4” vanes, plus add some JB weld to bond the shafts together, would probably end up about 1475 ish grains. I’ll fire it from the Safari bow, PM me if you’re willing to sacrifice parts. Idk if it would be too heavy to fire or not.


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## Drkoster (Sep 10, 2016)

In a nutshell I'd say keep doing what's been working for you with your game of choice.

I'm going to catch heat for this. There's a Dr. Ed Ashby cult out there and they're kind of loud. I think that's the source of a lot of this heavy arrow/high FOC phenomenon. 

To me the extremes are LASERs (super fast) or lawn darts (super heavy/high FOC). Everyone is always looking for a silver bullet that's just not there. I fashion mine to give me the trajectory and speed I want while still delivering power on target. I'm always going for the pass-through on any animal and only want to shoot one arrow out of my hunting bow. Out of necessity I'm currently shooting what's nearly a pointy log and I ain't loving it. I'm waiting on shafts for my new build that will give me a better speed, distance, trajectory, and still blow through anything I shoot.

I've had this discussion dozens of times, so if the proselytes come out and start hating on me here, I'm not buying it or discussing it any more. I've done the math and I'm not into throwing logs or lawn darts.


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## plecavalier (Jan 10, 2008)

roosiebull said:


> Haha... really?


Actually it will.


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## plecavalier (Jan 10, 2008)

Drkoster said:


> In a nutshell I'd say keep doing what's been working for you with your game of choice.
> 
> I'm going to catch heat for this. There's a Dr. Ed Ashby cult out there and they're kind of loud. I think that's the source of a lot of this heavy arrow/high FOC phenomenon.
> 
> ...


You've done the math but you haven't actually tried it. Kind of providing support of what I've been saying all along. You can call my arrows lawn darts if you want but until you try any of it, your comments have no weight


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## roosiebull (Oct 3, 2010)

plecavalier said:


> Actually it will.


I wouldn’t say that, but it will certainly show itself with a stick bow, it won’t fix it, but you will if you want to shoot well :wink:

Shooting compounds, it’s not as obvious, and as long as it’s not severe, you can still shoot well with target panic.

I have always had it, just didn’t know it, and was never forced to address it


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## Greasey (Aug 12, 2009)

Blade 1970, if you have been fortunate enough to kill 8-9 deer a year for 34 yrs., doesn't sound like your missing anything at all !!Maybe some people use heavy arrow to get rid of some noise, or maybe they feel heavier arrow will give them better penetration on a marginal hit. What ever their reason it should be ok with all of us bowhunters. Your post seems like something that anti-hunters could use for ammunition. We all love and enjoy our archery hunting (and hopefully pass our knowledge on the younger people of this sport),or we wouldn't be on this site.We need to be concentrating on how to keep our beloved sport legal for all of us and the kids.We all need to nix the controversy and work together. Nothing personal just my opinion.


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## MT Elk Hunter (Sep 27, 2013)

*C'mon, why all the rants*



Blade1970 said:


> I know I will get some crap for posting this. Just a little feedback. I have bow hunted every single year since 85 and have harvested over 300 dear because I live on a farm with a crop damage stamp. My old bow shot 302 fps and I used a gold tip at 8.2 grains per inch with spitfire tips (100 grain) and since I hunt on the ground I always get a straight pass through on a deer. I see so many new hunters going with much heavier arrows. Almost all the misses in archery is due to the drop of the arrow and yet it seems like the new trend is to hunt with these heavy arrows. Mine goes stright through sometimes 30-40 yrds past where I hit the deer. Did I miss something in the last few years for the heavy arrow thing?


Many may want to take a step back to reflect on why they are on AT. It should be to discover, learn and better their archery passion while building up each other rather than attempting to tear someone apart. With that said, my opinion is that a shooters best outcome will be with what they are most comfortable and have most trained with. This discussion reminds me of the hornet's nest argument about the best caliber for concealed carry weapons.

At 58, my choice of arrows after decades of hunting seasons only matters to me and works as I am comfortable and train with them effectively. 

Since I am primarily an elk hunter I use a 700 grain arrow set-up. 200 grain single bevel Maasai broadhead mounted on a FOC (forward of center) GrizzlyStick TDT (thin diameter tapered) arrow for both elk and deer. For whatever reason, if my shot impact becomes less than optimal, my arrow can usually still drive through elk bone. My interest in such an arrow came after a 2003 incident when I used light and fast arrows for elk and deer and needed to finish off a bull elk I had shot. It was laid up in the tall grass of a mountainside Alder tree thicket leaving only poor shot angles. I did put the bull to rest, but the first arrow hit a rib and without it penetrating deeply stuck out like a sore thumb. Luckily the bull was so close to expiring, it didn't even flinch. If you are a student of archery, try Googling: Understanding Arrow FOC and Applying it to Bow Hunting, How to get your arrows to "Fly Like Darts", and GrizzlyStik Bone Breaking Videos.

Also, not altering my set-up for different species provides for one less distraction which provides for increased shot focus. From a physics standpoint, yes my heavy arrows drop more than a lighter one, but it is not a factor to me since that's what I practice with and it's the norm. As a last thought, how can western guides and clients, where it's advocated to use heavier arrows be so successful in taking game, which at many times are at greater distances?


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## loujo61 (Apr 29, 2005)

roosiebull said:


> Haha... really?


Yes really.


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## lazyjmc (May 22, 2018)

Allen cox said:


> If we have time tomorrow we could post the deer, all with a 425gr and under, i will never understand why anyone would use over 500 grains unless your in Africa, then i could understand the use of 650gr for the real big game hunters, im just a weekender in the east.


I personally shoot about 570 grains because I am shooting 73 lbs at 32” DL. This keeps my speed at around 285 which I have always found to produce the best Broadhead flight for me. Also, with that much energy on the arrow, component strength matters. A lighter arrow shaft is going to be thinner, therefore less strength. Lighter front end components also have less strength. I don’t shoot that weight of an arrow because I think heavier is better, i shoot it because through testing that is what I have found gives me the best performance out of my projectile, which honestly should be the goal in my opinion. I have tried setups that produced around 320 fps, but they just didn’t fly well. Just wanted to provide what I believe to be a legitimate reason for why someone would shoot over 500 grains.


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## hoyt3 (Apr 22, 2005)

nuttinbutchunks said:


> My son likes Dr Ashby and is always talking about front loading his shafts. What ever! My arrows weigh 390 grains and I've killed a bear with them. I like to have 100 yards range, not that I would take that shot all the time but I did kill a mule deer at 98 yards. Heavier shafts would shorten that range and I'm just not into that.


He's a Dr, after all, and therefore he must NOT know what he's talking about, right?


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## Dafis (Jul 12, 2009)

I scrolled thru this and a quite a few people who answered or are arguing, probably have never shot let a lone have seen a deer in the NE. 

When the OP mentioned NE I picture, upper New York through Maine. So I, who just shoot Midwest deer, thought "How big are the deer in the NE?"

so I google and came up with this

Maine is home to one of the largest of the 30 recognized subspecies of white-tailed deer. After attaining maturity at age five, our bucks can reach record live weights of nearly 400 lbs. Most adult bucks, however will normally range from 200 to 300 lbs live weight, and will stand 36 to 40" at the shoulder.

By this, NE deer are bigger then the deer in the Midwest,(every now and then I hear of the 300 pounder) and if that is the case, I would be shooting a minimum 700gr arrow out of a 80+ lb bow


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## roosiebull (Oct 3, 2010)

loujo61 said:


> Yes really.


Glad we got that cleared up:wink:


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## Cyde (Mar 10, 2018)

Here's my opinion for what it's worth,and I've done some fairly extensive testing. Every bow setup will max out in kinetic energy somewhere. My current setup I shoot a 480 grain arrow because if I went heavier I actually stopped gaining energy. And if I went lighter I loose energy as well


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## copterdoc (Oct 9, 2005)

Cyde said:


> .....if I went heavier I actually stopped gaining energy......


 No you didn't.

If you actually shoot through a chrono, rather than just believe what a calculator tells you, you'll see that KE *ALWAYS* increases with added arrow weight.
Even at well over 1,000 grains.

It doesn't increase by much, but it does always increase.

The reason this happens, is that the bow only transfers a percentage of the energy you invested into drawing it, into the arrow.
The heavier the arrow, the more efficient (less wasteful) the bow becomes.


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## copterdoc (Oct 9, 2005)

deadquiet said:


> At 1:36 in the video he says he has lost more mule deer do to noise than ANY other reason......


 Wow! 
You _really_ only heard what you wanted to hear from that video.


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## plecavalier (Jan 10, 2008)

Cyde said:


> Here's my opinion for what it's worth,and I've done some fairly extensive testing. Every bow setup will max out in kinetic energy somewhere. My current setup I shoot a 480 grain arrow because if I went heavier I actually stopped gaining energy. And if I went lighter I loose energy as well


Whatever you're using to calculate that drop is incorrect. You won't see a drop till you get way over 1000gn.


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## Gwilson1973 (Feb 6, 2019)

Very impressive discussion! 18 pages on arrow weight, gotta be a record! Lol


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## roosiebull (Oct 3, 2010)

Gwilson1973 said:


> Very impressive discussion! 18 pages on arrow weight, gotta be a record! Lol


Not even close :wink: check out the latest Ashby thread


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## Teemster (Jul 11, 2014)

copterdoc said:


> Wow!
> You _really_ only heard what you wanted to hear from that video.


Im curious what you heard?


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## plecavalier (Jan 10, 2008)

Gwilson1973 said:


> Very impressive discussion! 18 pages on arrow weight, gotta be a record! Lol


I've been talking about arrow weight for years...one longassthread imo.


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## copterdoc (Oct 9, 2005)

Teemster said:


> Im curious what you heard?


He says that there are a lot of good reasons to shoot a fast bow.
He considers 270 FPS to be a slower arrow.
He considers 500 grains to be a heavier arrow.
He considers 270 FPS to be the best balance of speed and forgiveness.
He shoots a "fast" bow, but that "extremely high speed bows" aren't that easy for him to shoot well.
A heavier, slower, arrow makes his bow a lot quieter.
He has lost a lot more big mule deer bucks, by having them *jump the string* than for *all the other reasons put together.*
He adds front weight to increase FOC balance.
He prefers a stiffer shaft.

Of note, I also noticed that the arrow scale reads 482 grains, the shaft he points at is a .330 spine, and the footage showing the buck "jumping the string" shows the buck looking directly at the arrow coming at it. The range seems to be *at least* 30 yards.


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## jaximus (Feb 23, 2015)

im trying to keep up even though theres a bunch of silly nonsense mixed in

i dont have a dog in the fight because i have developed a very well balanced system that works extremely well for my hunting sytle, situations and target species. 

seems like a lot of the same arguments for heavy arrows keep coming up...
*its quiets the bow
*shots are short, so the trajectory tradeoff is minimized
*increased penetration
*take lessons learned from trad guys with low energy

ill pose a few questions in response to those listed points

instead of 70# limbs, why not 60 or 50? less energy to dissipate, so its inherently much quieter in the same bow platform. 

shots are short anyway, so the extra range from the bow poundage isnt needed right? if a trad bow can do it at 40 or 50#, a compound at 50 or 60# can do it better.


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## copterdoc (Oct 9, 2005)

jaximus said:


> ....i dont have a dog in the fight because i have developed a very well balanced system that works extremely well for my hunting sytle, situations and target species......


 The setup in your siggy makes perfect sense for Whitetails, *because* it actually *has* balance.

You have learned to trade some of the things that you really don't need, for a little more of the things that you actually do need.

However for some reason; some (maybe even most), people will tend to go completely off the deep end, in either direction. 
And right now, it seems to be that the current AT fad is to hunt deer with arrows that are far better suited for hunting buffalo.


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## hunterhewi (Jun 12, 2010)

copterdoc said:


> The setup in your siggy makes perfect sense for Whitetails, *because* it actually *has* balance.
> 
> You have learned to trade some of the things that you really don't need, for a little more of the things that you actually do need.
> 
> ...


So my balance of 70lbs/30.5” DL and 630 grain arrows at 20.5% FOC are nonsense?? Just because im all of 150 grains heavier with 10+ lbs of draw weight i bet im pushing my arrow as fast as that E35 and his DL. So explain to me why going over 600 grains is an issue for me, cuz id love to hear the explaination of how too much penetration is too much.


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## roosiebull (Oct 3, 2010)

jaximus said:


> im trying to keep up even though theres a bunch of silly nonsense mixed in
> 
> i dont have a dog in the fight because i have developed a very well balanced system that works extremely well for my hunting sytle, situations and target species.
> 
> ...


I think if I ever go back to a compound, it will likely be a 60lb bow, 500ish gr arrow (my setups are basically built for shooting roosies at close range, which works for everything else)

I don’t see that in my future, but I’m not one to rule anything out. My favorite bow was a 60# bow, not because the weight, but it certainly didn’t hinder me in any way. I have always shot 70lb bows because I can pull them plenty easy... but you are right, down size the whole setup, proportionately, and still target that 250-60fps as a good balance.


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## Greasey (Aug 12, 2009)

Well said Elk 




Well said Elk Hunter


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## plecavalier (Jan 10, 2008)

hunterhewi said:


> So my balance of 70lbs/30.5” DL and 630 grain arrows at 20.5% FOC are nonsense?? Just because im all of 150 grains heavier with 10+ lbs of draw weight i bet im pushing my arrow as fast as that E35 and his DL. So explain to me why going over 600 grains is an issue for me, cuz id love to hear the explaination of how too much penetration is too much.


Lol balance. What does that actually benefit? Take a knife to a gun fight and feel like you've got a good balance between your fist and a gun?


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## jaximus (Feb 23, 2015)

hunterhewi said:


> So my balance of 70lbs/30.5” DL and 630 grain arrows at 20.5% FOC are nonsense?? Just because im all of 150 grains heavier with 10+ lbs of draw weight i bet im pushing my arrow as fast as that E35 and his DL. So explain to me why going over 600 grains is an issue for me, cuz id love to hear the explaination of how too much penetration is too much.


youre at 9gpp and im just shy of 8. you have me be 1.5" of DL, so i dont doubt your arrow is the same or a bit quicker. with your specs, that arrow isnt unreasonable, but most dont have that 30.5" draw. i would consider your bow specs a bit 'out of the norm' just because your draw is so long. you can keep a heavier arrow at higher speeds because of that without going outside the norm on draw weight. 

this is why i find it so absolutely important to share qualifiers when making suggestions. simple things like bow and arrow specs in your signature and your location to help make sense of why people suggest what they do. you have a long draw and shoot 70#, eric has t-rex arms, phil shoots a lever bow, roosie shoots big bodied elk, i shoot large quantities of herd control city does in TINY parcels, DQ is a stealthy SOB... these are all things that influence our choices and have bearing on our suggestions and setups


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## copterdoc (Oct 9, 2005)

hunterhewi said:


> So my balance of 70lbs/30.5” DL and 630 grain arrows at 20.5% FOC are nonsense?? Just because im all of 150 grains heavier with 10+ lbs of draw weight i bet im pushing my arrow faster than that E35 and his DL. So explain to me why going over 600 grains is an issue for me, cuz id love to hear the explaination of how too much penetration is too much.


 If the numbers you have stated are correct, you are shooting a bow with at least a 23.75" power stroke, and are investing at least 110 ft lbs of energy into drawing it back.

If you are 24 years old, 6' 4" tall, and 250 lbs of lean muscle, then it might be so easy, that it doesn't matter.
But the average 40 year old, 5' 9" tall, 200 lb American male has a 28" DL and is way "overbowed" at even 70 lbs of draw weight.

Most people are physically incapable of getting that much KE into an arrow. Period
So, they have to compromise.


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## roosiebull (Oct 3, 2010)

plecavalier said:


> Lol balance. What does that actually benefit? Take a knife to a gun fight and feel like you've got a good balance between your fist and a gun?


I think the theme is, how does a 600+gr arrow benefit you in the whitetail woods? I want a quiet, forgiving setup with sufficient energy... that’s it..


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## copterdoc (Oct 9, 2005)

roosiebull said:


> I think the theme is, how does a 600+gr arrow benefit you in the whitetail woods? I want a quiet, forgiving setup with sufficient energy... that’s it..


And inside of 10 yards, there's a lot of guys that can beat you down with their fists, before you even have a chance to draw and aim your gun!


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## plecavalier (Jan 10, 2008)

roosiebull said:


> I think the theme is, how does a 600+gr arrow benefit you in the whitetail woods? I want a quiet, forgiving setup with sufficient energy... that’s it..


I have 12 reasons. We covered those pretty good already but I could go over all of them again 

Randy added a couple of pretty good ones that haven't been mentioned in a while: deflection and wind. Deflection is twofold: for branches and during penetration.

But of course, the age old argument is if you've never experienced poor penetration then your setup is good enough I guess...Until it isn't. Plan B man. I guess I have plans B through F covered lol.


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## roosiebull (Oct 3, 2010)

copterdoc said:


> And inside of 10 yards, there's a lot of guys that can beat you down with their fists, before you have a chance to draw and aim your gun!


True... other than AT, if you started a poll, 90% would tell you that less than 10% of people could bash their face in:wink:

Like 90% of people think they are in the 10% of people that kill 90% of the game, haha... the math never works out


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## copterdoc (Oct 9, 2005)

plecavalier said:


> ...Randy added a couple of pretty good ones that haven't been mentioned in a while: deflection and wind. Deflection is twofold: for branches and during penetration.....


 Both of these are actually better combated by increasing FOC %, than they are by increasing total arrow mass.


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## Hammer-1 (Jun 21, 2013)

The only reason I shoot a 650 grain arrow is because I have to. I’m pulling 89 pounds at 260 fps I don’t feel comfortable shooting carbon arrows at this weight. This is my pig hunting bow. Ive had 400gr arrows fall out of a big boar with my 70# set up at 300 fps. With only 3” of penetration. Lost a small buck once from shooting to close and too high up. Killed him dead, but no pass through,no blood trail. Coyotes got to him before I found him next morning. Light arrows to blame? Yes. Shooter errors to blame? Yes. Would my heavy set up blew right through both of them. You bet. So far I’ve never had a deer duck a 300 fps arrow. Had 2 duck my heavy rig at 25 But I’ve killed deer with recurves only doing 160 with 500 gr arrow. So no matter what we try to blame on equipment (unless is a real malfunction)it’s always going to be user error.


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## plecavalier (Jan 10, 2008)

roosiebull said:


> True... other than AT, if you started a poll, 90% would tell you that less than 10% of people could bash their face in:wink:
> 
> Like 90% of people think they are in the 10% of people that kill 90% of the game, haha... the math never works out


Not so sure trying to hit a guy with a gun from 30 feet away would work in his favour...


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## roosiebull (Oct 3, 2010)

plecavalier said:


> I have 12 reasons. We covered those pretty good already but I could go over all of them again
> 
> Randy added a couple of pretty good ones that haven't been mentioned in a while: deflection and wind. Deflection is twofold: for branches and during penetration.
> 
> But of course, the age old argument is if you've never experienced poor penetration then your setup is good enough I guess...Until it isn't. Plan B man. I guess I have plans B through F covered lol.


But if penetration is reasonably sufficient, it’s good enough unless you make a poor shot... if your poor shot is back, heavier won’t help, if it’s forward, any reasonable weight will not reliably bail you out, that’s where balance comes in for most


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## plecavalier (Jan 10, 2008)

roosiebull said:


> But if penetration is reasonably sufficient, it’s good enough unless you make a poor shot... if your poor shot is back, heavier won’t help, if it’s forward, any reasonable weight will not reliably bail you out, that’s where balance comes in for most


But in both those scenarios (front and back shots) where does mid range or light weight bail you out? It doesn't. So again where is the advantage of balance? Are you saying you won't miss because it's a balanced set up? I think that would be a slippery slope  if anything the heavy arrow stands a good chance if bailing you out if the forward shot. I do t look at balancing I look at odds. I. The woods the odds of not hitting perfect bullseye are "good". If I hit back, it's a track job for a second shot. Nothing to do with arrow bow setups there. (I do t agree a wider cut makes a significant difference). However on a forward shot if I have as many of the 12 factors as possible (including mass) my odds are good. So again, I see no downside to a heavy 10-12 gpp arrow over what guys are calling balanced (speed vs mass). Only time I might agree is a western guy shooting 100 yards. But then there's other issues.


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## copterdoc (Oct 9, 2005)

plecavalier said:


> Not so sure trying to hit a guy with a gun from 30 feet away would work in his favour...


You have a poor grasp on the concept of time.


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## roosiebull (Oct 3, 2010)

plecavalier said:


> Not so sure trying to hit a guy with a gun from 30 feet away would work in his favour...



Maybe not, but I also don’t understand your analogy in this context. Using an arrow that works well every time you make even a decent shot isn’t “bringing a knife to a gun fight”

My Broadhead failure this year wouldn’t have happened if I would have done my part... that’s on me. I didn’t expect that, and I would have guessed my setup would have survived and bailed me out, but it didn’t. I will never shoot that particular head again, but those odds don’t make me want to go impractically heavy, the 2 elk I have shot and not recovered were both due to the shoulder, but I’m not building my arrows solely on the mistakes, and there is no proof I have seen it would have mattered


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## copterdoc (Oct 9, 2005)

roosiebull said:


> But if penetration is reasonably sufficient, it’s good enough unless you make a poor shot... if your poor shot is back, heavier won’t help, if it’s forward, any reasonable weight will not reliably bail you out, that’s where balance comes in for most


This touches on something important.
Where to aim.

I aim at the center of the vitals.
I don't aim at the heart, and I don't aim at the diaphragm.

I aim at the center of the vitals, giving me the most room to miss. 
In any direction.


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## plecavalier (Jan 10, 2008)

roosiebull said:


> Maybe not, but I also don’t understand your analogy in this context. Using an arrow that works well every time you make even a decent shot isn’t “bringing a knife to a gun fight”
> 
> My Broadhead failure this year wouldn’t have happened if I would have done my part... that’s on me. I didn’t expect that, and I would have guessed my setup would have survived and bailed me out, but it didn’t. I will never shoot that particular head again, but those odds don’t make me want to go impractically heavy, the 2 elk I have shot and not recovered were both due to the shoulder, but I’m not building my arrows solely on the mistakes, and there is no proof I have seen it would have mattered


I build and plan for the worse case scenario because not doing is to bring a knife to a gun fight. It's just how I approach things. Not a judgment on you or anyone else. I'm also making light of the situation because let's face it, this post has little to no useful information.


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## copterdoc (Oct 9, 2005)

plecavalier said:


> I build and plan for the worse case scenario because not doing is to bring a knife to a gun fight.....


 You should rather plan for the most likely scenario.
Because that's usually what actually happens.


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## plecavalier (Jan 10, 2008)

plecavalier said:


> I build and plan for the worse case scenario because not doing is to bring a knife to a gun fight. It's just how I approach things. Not a judgment on you or anyone else. I'm also making light of the situation because let's face it, this post has little to no useful information.


I would add that I feel strongly that that head worked until it didn't and if you had the head your going to use now that bull would have went down. No guarantee but I'd say odds were decent for failure when they could have been good. Add a footer and it would be the last piece of the puzzle imo.


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## Teemster (Jul 11, 2014)

hunterhewi said:


> So my balance of 70lbs/30.5” DL and 630 grain arrows at 20.5% FOC are nonsense?? Just because im all of 150 grains heavier with 10+ lbs of draw weight i bet im pushing my arrow as fast as that E35 and his DL. So explain to me why going over 600 grains is an issue for me, cuz id love to hear the explaination of how too much penetration is too much.


I’m in the same boat and keep thinking the same thing.


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## copterdoc (Oct 9, 2005)

Teemster said:


> I’m in the same boat and keep thinking the same thing.


You two are in a very small boat.


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## Teemster (Jul 11, 2014)

As long as I have your approval doc...don’t want ur panties twisted over me shootin more than 400 grains


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## copterdoc (Oct 9, 2005)

Teemster said:


> As long as I have your approval doc...don’t want ur panties twisted........


 You wouldn't say that to my face.


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## roosiebull (Oct 3, 2010)

plecavalier said:


> But in both those scenarios (front and back shots) where does mid range or light weight bail you out? It doesn't. So again where is the advantage of balance? Are you saying you won't miss because it's a balanced set up? I think that would be a slippery slope  if anything the heavy arrow stands a good chance if bailing you out if the forward shot. I do t look at balancing I look at odds. I. The woods the odds of not hitting perfect bullseye are "good". If I hit back, it's a track job for a second shot. Nothing to do with arrow bow setups there. (I do t agree a wider cut makes a significant difference). However on a forward shot if I have as many of the 12 factors as possible (including mass) my odds are good. So again, I see no downside to a heavy 10-12 gpp arrow over what guys are calling balanced (speed vs mass). Only time I might agree is a western guy shooting 100 yards. But then there's other issues.


I never said balance will bail you out, I have seen no evidence stating anything will reliably bail you out.. only text claiming that. I don’t think anything will reliably bail you out, so balance is practical, and balance varies between all of us. 

I’m the only thing that can bail me out, and I can only do that before the arrow leaves the bow. The mistake needs to be stopped before it happens, because we are talking arrows here.

Don’t get me wrong, if a heavy arrow is practical for you, then that’s your balance, if you just like testing this stuff, that’s cool too, but share the evidence, a bunch of claims in theory or text will not make me believe something I have not seen in my own experience, you cannot expect it to.

It would take quite a bit of evidence to convince me too, because I have had light arrows go through stuff it shouldn’t have, so I know there are exemptions. 

I’m not building my arrow to break an elk’s shoulder, because I don’t think it will be done reliably with an arrow, I have not seen it done reliably. If you have, that gives you confidence, I don’t have that confidence.

I build my arrows as heavy as I can without compromising trajectory at the distance I plan on shooting, which ends up being heavier than average. I know I can go what most consider too heavy without compromise, I have shot different weight arrows side by side.

I think balance is a good compromise for most folks, I also think many shoot a lighter arrow than that balance, because they don’t know, it’s easier to assume than test.

It looks like I will be shooting a lighter arrow from my 54# recurve than my 72# compound, because at a point, my mind doesn’t like the trajectory of heavier, and I know the single most important thing to me is placing that arrow where it needs to go. That is compromising my personal accuracy for extra weight, and isn’t practical. I will still be over 10gpp, but not crazy heavy.


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## roosiebull (Oct 3, 2010)

copterdoc said:


> This touches on something important.
> Where to aim.
> 
> I aim at the center of the vitals.
> ...



Me too, but I try to always pick off the slow dumb ones... it’s always worked for me. I have made mistakes, and that aiming concept saved me, hugging any direction would have been bad. I vividly recall making a couple really bad shots and watched them tip over, you can miss pretty bad and still make a good shot on an elk.

The ONE time I held “tight” on an elk was this year, and it bit me. I will be able to chase him this year, but that decision I made haunts me. Had I been using a 400gr arrow, I would have given myself more room, but I had a pretty heavy arrow, and a big black horned bull at pizzing distance.... stupid decision to make, but it happened and I learned


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## roosiebull (Oct 3, 2010)

copterdoc said:


> This touches on something important.
> Where to aim.
> 
> I aim at the center of the vitals.
> ...



Me too, but I try to always pick off the slow dumb ones... it’s always worked for me. I have made mistakes, and that aiming concept saved me, hugging any direction would have been bad. I vividly recall making a couple really bad shots and watched them tip over, you can miss pretty bad and still make a good shot on an elk.

The ONE time I held “tight” on an elk was this year, and it bit me. I will be able to chase him this year, but that decision I made haunts me. Had I been using a 400gr arrow, I would have given myself more room, but I had a pretty heavy arrow, and a big black horned bull at pizzing distance.... stupid decision to make, but it happened and I learned


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## roosiebull (Oct 3, 2010)

plecavalier said:


> I build and plan for the worse case scenario because not doing is to bring a knife to a gun fight. It's just how I approach things. Not a judgment on you or anyone else. I'm also making light of the situation because let's face it, this post has little to no useful information.


For the sake of conversation, what is worse case scenario to you? I assume shoulder? I personally can’t bring myself to build an arrow for shoulder shots. You having confidence in your equipment is paramount. I can’t disagree with that whatever that is. Everyone should do that, put some thought into it, build with the aspects you see as important, build confidence, and be willing to change if you uncover a weak point in your system


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## trellaf (Dec 6, 2018)

Gees, the guy killed over 300 deer and you're telling he is using the wrong arrow combination?


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## roosiebull (Oct 3, 2010)

trellaf said:


> Gees, the guy killed over 300 deer and you're telling he is using the wrong arrow combination?


Who said anyone was using the wrong arrow? Just a discussion of opinions. Nobody said anybody is using the wrong arrow


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## odin544 (Apr 6, 2016)

Same reason guys are shooting 80lbs. They think it makes their balls bigger.


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## hunterhewi (Jun 12, 2010)

copterdoc said:


> If the numbers you have stated are correct, you are shooting a bow with at least a 23.75" power stroke, and are investing at least 110 ft lbs of energy into drawing it back.
> 
> If you are 24 years old, 6' 4" tall, and 250 lbs of lean muscle, then it might be so easy, that it doesn't matter.
> But the average 40 year old, 5' 9" tall, 200 lb American male has a 28" DL and is way "overbowed" at even 70 lbs of draw weight.
> ...


So, saying everyone that shoots a heavy arrow is basically shooting “too much arrow” is not true. I dont have to compromise anything with my setup. Im 6’ 240 and can pull 80lbs very comfortably and have done it on and off for years. Even if i was 50lb shooter, id have more arrow than most shoot at 70


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## BigFish7 (Oct 19, 2017)

odin544 said:


> Same reason guys are shooting 80lbs. They think it makes their balls bigger.


Not think, proven fact.


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## crankn101 (Jan 26, 2007)

20 pages? WOW. all hard hitting intel im sure....


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## jvccspeed (Jan 13, 2019)

Blade1970,

You are right in your setup, and it CLEARLY works. We aren't out west with large bodied game

A heavy arrow has one advantage, but several disadvantages. That one advantage: it will retain a larger proportion of its speed at 20,30,40, ... yards in relation to its speed when leaving the bow. Think of the BC of a bullet of a bullet, same concept.


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## plecavalier (Jan 10, 2008)

jvccspeed said:


> Blade1970,
> 
> A heavy arrow has one advantage, but several disadvantages. That one advantage: it will retain a larger proportion of its speed at 20,30,40, ....


I've been talking about the exact opposite for quite some time. the one disadvantage is trajectory. Can you indulge me and list the rest if there are several?


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## 3D Pinwheeler (Jan 29, 2007)

copterdoc said:


> This touches on something important.
> Where to aim.
> 
> I aim at the center of the vitals.
> ...



View attachment 6770265


Too me the "center" of the vitals is straight up from the heart above the elbow.
Or am I seeing it wrong?


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## copterdoc (Oct 9, 2005)

3D Pinwheeler said:


> View attachment 6770265
> 
> 
> Too me the "center" of the vitals is straight up from the heart above the elbow.
> Or am I seeing it wrong?


That's not an accurate depiction of the chest cavity. It's a cartoon.


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## 3D Pinwheeler (Jan 29, 2007)

Here's an Elk


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## ForestPhantom (Aug 22, 2007)

It is ALL about where you hit. I am very happy with 445 grains. I feel it is a good combination and so does my bow.


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## 3D Pinwheeler (Jan 29, 2007)

Another cartoon Doc

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZObfMPAhFLw


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## plecavalier (Jan 10, 2008)

roosiebull said:


> For the sake of conversation, what is worse case scenario to you? I assume shoulder? I personally can’t bring myself to build an arrow for shoulder shots. You having confidence in your equipment is paramount. I can’t disagree with that whatever that is. Everyone should do that, put some thought into it, build with the aspects you see as important, build confidence, and be willing to change if you uncover a weak point in your system


Worse case is heavy bone. Any heavy bone. Shoulder yes. But spine. Top of ribs, scapula ridge, spine heck even skull. I helped more than one guy build an arrow that, when shot (at the wrong time no doubt, the deer lower his head to feed and the arrow had to get through both sides of the skull, the neck and top of the torso before touching vitals. And it worked. Dead deer in sight.

If you believe this is theory nothing I'm going to show you it's going to change your mind because you don't believe me.hunters have been splitting heavy boned with a bow and arrow for since the dawn of time. It is not up to me provide evidence change your mind. Heck I don't even have elk up here. So why would you believe me? When you head to the woods with your recurve and cutthroats you will see for yourself and you will not need evidence from some guy up in Canada I want to chat forum. Now, there are some issues if I can call it that what you're mentioning with your new setup pertaining to this subject.

For 1 it will be apples and oranges to what you're accustomed to so the comparison will be extremely difficult.

Secondly, you no longer are using a site and you will no doubt see as you probably already have your accuracy and odds of a perfect hit are significantly lower. This brings us right back for an increase in needing that plan B where buy perfect balance is no longer as effective.

Lastly, you mentioned a few times that you're actually going down in Arrow weight no doubt because your draw weight is significantly less than it was with your compound. Problem with that as you know actually need Arrow weight as you decrease Broadway equal or more momentum due to the decrease in velocity. The problem with a balanced approach as you guys refer to it is that you're relying mostly on velocity and trajectory to dictate your arrow weight and energy potential. The problem was trajectory is that it's a mental game meaning that if you can't be accurate with a certain trajectory it's simply because you're not allowing yourself to be. and I don't mean that in a condescending wait at all I'm just saying that if you'll allow yourself you can be accurate with any trajectory.

Sorry for all the weird text my voice to text doesn't seem to recognize me this morning.


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## Nosajnh (Dec 11, 2018)

I'm new hear and love this type of debate. When you read through this thread most of the sad stories are from people with light arrows not getting enough penetration. I have not read many stories of guys who shot heavy arrows going lighter due to poor heavy arrow performance. I understand heavy arrows are somewhat of a new trend so it will be interesting to see which way the trend goes. I plan on shooting a mechanical with a heavy arrow and see what I get for results. With that said I am going to start making arrows and play with FOC and try out some fixed heads as well. In the end what ever I feel the most comfortable with is what I am going to shoot because I do believe that the best arrow set up is the one that you can shoot the most accurately.


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## enewman (Jun 5, 2007)

Nosajnh said:


> I'm new hear and love this type of debate. When you read through this thread most of the sad stories are from people with light arrows not getting enough penetration. I have not read many stories of guys who shot heavy arrows going lighter due to poor heavy arrow performance. I understand heavy arrows are somewhat of a new trend so it will be interesting to see which way the trend goes. I plan on shooting a mechanical with a heavy arrow and see what I get for results. With that said I am going to start making arrows and play with FOC and try out some fixed heads as well. In the end what ever I feel the most comfortable with is what I am going to shoot because I do believe that the best arrow set up is the one that you can shoot the most accurately.


Heavy arrows are not a new trend. What your seeing is a return to a heavier arrow. Light arrow was the trend. It started in the 90’s. I was there. Haha. When the carbon arrows came out. This is the same for foc. Foc has been around forever. It was mainlyba trad thing. But, it came over into compound long ago. It just was not as a big of a deal, knowing how to tune and again carbon arrows you didn’t need it. But like everything in history it comes back around. 

You are just seeing itvas new because of social media. And more people are beginning to see it has some merit. 

Good luck on your build and playing around. Great way to learn. Let me give you some examples of things. Youbare talking about playing around and see which one shoots the best. The will change depending on what arrow you use. Just reference only. A 350spine might shoot better for you with a 100gr tip so foc will be low. But a 250 spine may shoot the best with a 300gr tip. High foc. So just choosing the wrong shaft or even the right shaft can and will give you false results. Almost always a person that try’s to increase foc and tells you the arrows shot like crap is all due to the incorrect arrow to start with.

Next thing to look at. Spine is a static term. Somthe spine of a shaft say 350 is just that. That static spine will never change. No matter what, we’ll unless you break it. Now there are times it can change but that is due to arrow where. Some arrows where out. 

When you shoot arrows you now have a dynamic reaction. Some people call this dynamic spine. That is an incorrect term but people us it because it’s easy to understand. But it is dynamic reaction. When you look at arrows being shot and the dynamic reaction there is no longer a weak or stiff arrow. There is more bend or less bend. Learning to understand this helps when tuning and finding the arrow that shoots best for you your bow and the arrow. There are several good tuning methods that are dynamic reaction tuning. 1: cut and trim, 2: tip replacement 3: H.I.L. method. All three of this are working with dynamic reaction of the arrow. You are looking to find where the arrow doesn’t have to much or to less of a bend. 

The cut and trim and tip replacement methods are both in the build a hunting arrow link in my signature


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## enewman (Jun 5, 2007)

Oops double post


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## shootstraight (Apr 28, 2005)

Nosajnh said:


> I'm new hear and love this type of debate. When you read through this thread most of the sad stories are from people with light arrows not getting enough penetration. I have not read many stories of guys who shot heavy arrows going lighter due to poor heavy arrow performance. I understand heavy arrows are somewhat of a new trend so it will be interesting to see which way the trend goes. I plan on shooting a mechanical with a heavy arrow and see what I get for results. With that said I am going to start making arrows and play with FOC and try out some fixed heads as well. In the end what ever I feel the most comfortable with is what I am going to shoot because I do believe that the best arrow set up is the one that you can shoot the most accurately.


Actually it’s not a trend, it’s how everything began. Lots of guys on here have only ever seen carbon arrows and grew up in that era. They never saw the advantages of a heavier arrow. Many of us started with aluminum arrows where 500+ grains was normal, we rarely had problems with pass throughs and penetration. We went to carbons to get more speed thinking the speed gain would even out the loss of weight. What we’ve found is that the weight is needed more than speed for penetration. More weight means more momentum which many people don’t measure.


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## Nosajnh (Dec 11, 2018)

Enewman,

Thanks for the insight. I am planing on playing with spine as well, where I work we do a lot of dynamic balancing of flexible rotors so I can relate to dynamic flexing due to imbalances. One thing I need to look into is how will an underspined or overspined condition exhibit its self. Before I go down the arrow test road I want to work on tuning the bow.


Enewman/shootstraight,

The fact that heavy has been around and you still do not hear a lot of complaints about heavy arrows points me in the heavier direction within reason.


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## enewman (Jun 5, 2007)

Nosajnh said:


> Enewman,
> 
> Thanks for the insight. I am planing on playing with spine as well, where I work we do a lot of dynamic balancing of flexible rotors so I can relate to dynamic flexing due to imbalances. One thing I need to look into is how will an underspined or overspined condition exhibit its self. Before I go down the arrow test road I want to work on tuning the bow.
> 
> ...


When I started looking at dynamic reaction I always started with a known arrow that had to much bend. So it is critical to have the bow set. When setting up a bow. You set center shot at 13/16 for most all bows. Best is to look at manufacture recommendation. Then I like to take a measurement to the arrow at front and back of riser. Make sure it’s square. If not you adjust cams till it is. Set arrow center on burger hole. Cams In Sync, Then you shoot a known weak arrow. If the arrow doesn’t require nock tuning it will have a high tear. If it has any tear other then high something is wrong. High tear is a weak indicator. So if it has a different tear turn nock. It will move so turn it till you have a high tear. If it doesn’t move and it is a side tear you need to adjust cam lean. It means the string is not directly behind the arrow. (Note: when I set up I use a very stiff arrow. That requires no nock tuning. I shoot this shaft several times to verify consistency if it is good then I fix my power stroke. Once this is done you should not ever need to touch power stroke again. Well until string change or stretch) once you have this you will learn and see how weak arrow react. Then you know what to look for. Best way is full length shaft with a heavy tip. Shoot it through paper at about 5 yards. With this high tear start cutting the shaft it will reach apoint it’s a bullet hole. You can stop with just a touch high. Back up to 10 and repeat. Then at 15 and last at 20 yards. Then that arrow will have the correct dynamic reaction. 

Few things you must think about when playing with dynamic reactions. Not all arrows are the same. You need to find a arrow that between the dozen spine is very close. Try to find no more then .005 to .008 between them. Easton, blackeagle, are some of the best for this. There are others but that is right of the top of my head. 

Now most of this is not needed to still have good shooting arrows. But it is a great way to do things and learn what is going on. Once you have done it then you don’t have to do it anymore unless you just want to. 

Eric


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## rutnstrut (Sep 16, 2003)

Frederick D. Be said:


> Hi...just because someone states an opinion does not make them ignorant. The heaviest arrow I hunt whitetails with is 380 grains...that is my choice. If I were to go after elk...larger game...then I would go up to around 420 grains probably...maybe a little higher depending on tuning/arrow flight. Weight is very good...momentum vs kinetic energy has been discussed in depth on here. But, what it really boils down to is it enough energy to get through the animal and is a person comfortable with it. Hope this helps. Cheers!
> Fred




Texas deer don't count. Their bodies are smaller than the squirrels up here


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## laur (Sep 6, 2017)

Dafis said:


> I scrolled thru this and a quite a few people who answered or are arguing, probably have never shot let a lone have seen a deer in the NE.
> 
> When the OP mentioned NE I picture, upper New York through Maine. So I, who just shoot Midwest deer, thought "How big are the deer in the NE?"
> 
> ...


There are large deer, no doubt. Even in the mountains mature bucks can go over 200 lb. 
Here are some northern NY mountain bucks:
http://adkhunter.com/wall-of-fame/


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## Carter102185 (Sep 18, 2016)

I agree. You have to find a happy medium. Shoot the heaviest arrow you can at decent speeds. Yes a heavier arrow penetrates more, but if your getting easy pass through's then your only hurting yourself by ignoring speed. All these speed haters can say what they will but you can't ignore physics. If you shoot an arrow weight that gets great pass through 's then why up your weight and slow your arrow down? Faster arrow is less gap and easier to be accurate with. If your argument is practice more. Then I suggest the heavy arrow guys practice more and don't shoot them in the shoulder where your need a 650gr arrow to get a pass. Like I said pick a good medium. Weight and speed should both be considered and neither ignored!


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## SCFox (Dec 11, 2005)

I base my arrow weight on finished FPS. I have a certain range I want my fixed blade heads to be at. With my current set up, I can shoot a 515gr arrow. A few bows ago, I was shooting a 450gr arrow. 

SCFox


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## laur (Sep 6, 2017)

Carter102185 said:


> I agree. You have to find a happy medium. Shoot the heaviest arrow you can at decent speeds. Yes a heavier arrow penetrates more, but if your getting easy pass through's then your only hurting yourself by ignoring speed. All these speed haters can say what they will but you can't ignore physics. If you shoot an arrow weight that gets great pass through 's then why up your weight and slow your arrow down? Faster arrow is less gap and easier to be accurate with. If your argument is practice more. Then I suggest the heavy arrow guys practice more and don't shoot them in the shoulder where your need a 650gr arrow to get a pass. Like I said pick a good medium. Weight and speed should both be considered and neither ignored!


Newsflash, deer move.


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## doutdoors (Jan 3, 2011)

Exactly!


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## Carter102185 (Sep 18, 2016)

laur said:


> Carter102185 said:
> 
> 
> > I agree. You have to find a happy medium. Shoot the heaviest arrow you can at decent speeds. Yes a heavier arrow penetrates more, but if your getting easy pass through's then your only hurting yourself by ignoring speed. All these speed haters can say what they will but you can't ignore physics. If you shoot an arrow weight that gets great pass through 's then why up your weight and slow your arrow down? Faster arrow is less gap and easier to be accurate with. If your argument is practice more. Then I suggest the heavy arrow guys practice more and don't shoot them in the shoulder where your need a 650gr arrow to get a pass. Like I said pick a good medium. Weight and speed should both be considered and neither ignored!
> ...


 exactly my reason!


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## doutdoors (Jan 3, 2011)

700 grain arrow on deer? or even elk? you're an idiot~ Completly unnecessary. Clearly you have never shot a deer,pronghorn, bear or elk ---> probably anything with a bow~ Kinetic energy, momentum and shot placement are the main factors in what determines penetration. Pass through on a deer can be achieved with a 40lb draw weight and a 290 gr. arrow. A 375gr. arrow out of a 70lb. bow produces 74.65lbs of kinetic energy. Enough to kill ANY and ALL North American big game and pass through an elk at a fairly long distance. P.S. who gives a -hit about how big GOOGLE says your deer are~


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## plecavalier (Jan 10, 2008)

doutdoors said:


> 700 grain arrow on deer? or even elk? you're an idiot~ Completly unnecessary. Clearly you have never shot a deer,pronghorn, bear or elk ---> probably anything with a bow~ Kinetic energy, momentum and shot placement are the main factors in what determines penetration. Pass through on a deer can be achieved with a 40lb draw weight and a 290 gr. arrow. A 375gr. arrow out of a 70lb. bow produces 74.65lbs of kinetic energy. Enough to kill ANY and ALL North American big game and pass through an elk at a fairly long distance. P.S. who gives a -hit about how big GOOGLE says your deer are~


This is why we have arguments on here. Absolutely no information offered. Nothing more than naysay.


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## hunterhewi (Jun 12, 2010)

plecavalier said:


> This is why we have arguments on here. Absolutely no information offered. Nothing more than naysay.


Most have never tried a heavier arrow so those that do, are obviously idiots. So i guess ill wear that idiot badge myself. Ive shot all weights ranging from 380-630 grains. Ill take the heavier gpp and arrow weight 10 times out of 10. Most of the guys shooting 400 grains have never shot anything much heavier so they dont have anything to contribute except that we are idiots and 600 grains isnt needed. I just laugh and chuckle since they have no experience yet feel qualified to say what kind of impact it has


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## plecavalier (Jan 10, 2008)

hunterhewi said:


> Most have never tried a heavier arrow so those that do, are obviously idiots. So i guess ill wear that idiot badge myself. Ive shot all weights ranging from 380-630 grains. Ill take the heavier gpp and arrow weight 10 times out of 10. Most of the guys shooting 400 grains have never shot anything much heavier so they dont have anything to contribute except that we are idiots and 600 grains isnt needed. I just laugh and chuckle since they have no experience yet feel qualified to say what kind of impact it has


I keep asking what the disadvantages are. One guy wrote it was less accurate in another thread but we cleared that up pretty quick. There exists only one known disadvantage and it's trajectory. Even that is negligible in most cases aka shots under 40 yards.


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## doutdoors (Jan 3, 2011)

For optimum penetration kinetic energy is the base for arrow set up. KINETIC energy and or momentum. Some "experts" say there is a flaw in the formula for momentum so the kinetic energy formula continues to be the standard arrow weight x fps x fps = _____ divide by 450240 = KE I also have a set standard that I want for my fps (300fps) and with my arrow weight of just 375 grains my KE (74.75lbs) is enough to kill any and all North American big game.


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## 3D Pinwheeler (Jan 29, 2007)

doutdoors said:


> 700 grain arrow on deer? or even elk? you're an idiot~ Completly unnecessary. Clearly you have never shot a deer,pronghorn, bear or elk ---> probably anything with a bow~ Kinetic energy, momentum and shot placement are the main factors in what determines penetration. Pass through on a deer can be achieved with a 40lb draw weight and a 290 gr. arrow. A 375gr. arrow out of a 70lb. bow produces 74.65lbs of kinetic energy. Enough to kill ANY and ALL North American big game and pass through an elk at a fairly long distance. P.S. who gives a -hit about how big GOOGLE says your deer are~


Easy man 4 post per year and two of them today.....don't go over your limit.


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## plecavalier (Jan 10, 2008)

doutdoors said:


> For optimum penetration kinetic energy is the base for arrow set up. KINETIC energy and or momentum. Some "experts" say there is a flaw in the formula for momentum so the kinetic energy formula continues to be the standard arrow weight x fps x fps = _____ divide by 450240 = KE I also have a set standard that I want for my fps (300fps) and with my arrow weight of just 375 grains my KE (74.75lbs) is enough to kill any and all North American big game.


That's some heavy math you got going there buddy. I'm not even sure I could compete with that.


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## Early Ice (Mar 18, 2008)

doutdoors said:


> 700 grain arrow on deer? or even elk? you're an idiot~ Completly unnecessary. Clearly you have never shot a deer,pronghorn, bear or elk ---> probably anything with a bow~ Kinetic energy, momentum and shot placement are the main factors in what determines penetration. Pass through on a deer can be achieved with a 40lb draw weight and a 290 gr. arrow. A 375gr. arrow out of a 70lb. bow produces 74.65lbs of kinetic energy. Enough to kill ANY and ALL North American big game and pass through an elk at a fairly long distance. P.S. who gives a -hit about how big GOOGLE says your deer are~


Do you say the same thing to the guy with a Ford 350 super duty that doesn't own a boat or pull anything with it?? You know the saying "you can never have too much power"?


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## shootstraight (Apr 28, 2005)

doutdoors said:


> For optimum penetration kinetic energy is the base for arrow set up. KINETIC energy and or momentum. Some "experts" say there is a flaw in the formula for momentum so the kinetic energy formula continues to be the standard arrow weight x fps x fps = _____ divide by 450240 = KE I also have a set standard that I want for my fps (300fps) and with my arrow weight of just 375 grains my KE (74.75lbs) is enough to kill any and all North American big game.


Well bless your heart!


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## Early Ice (Mar 18, 2008)

doutdoors said:


> For optimum penetration kinetic energy is the base for arrow set up. KINETIC energy and or momentum. Some "experts" say there is a flaw in the formula for momentum so the kinetic energy formula continues to be the standard arrow weight x fps x fps = _____ divide by 450240 = KE I also have a set standard that I want for my fps (300fps) and with my arrow weight of just 375 grains my KE (74.75lbs) is enough to kill any and all North American big game.


What website did you highlight and copy those lines from? Who ever you got that information from is a straight tool shed. I wouldn't be hitting the ctrl + c on that anymore. Good ole KE term thrown around like a rag doll, gotta love it.


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## roosiebull (Oct 3, 2010)

plecavalier said:


> Worse case is heavy bone. Any heavy bone. Shoulder yes. But spine. Top of ribs, scapula ridge, spine heck even skull. I helped more than one guy build an arrow that, when shot (at the wrong time no doubt, the deer lower his head to feed and the arrow had to get through both sides of the skull, the neck and top of the torso before touching vitals. And it worked. Dead deer in sight.
> 
> If you believe this is theory nothing I'm going to show you it's going to change your mind because you don't believe me.hunters have been splitting heavy boned with a bow and arrow for since the dawn of time. It is not up to me provide evidence change your mind. Heck I don't even have elk up here. So why would you believe me? When you head to the woods with your recurve and cutthroats you will see for yourself and you will not need evidence from some guy up in Canada I want to chat forum. Now, there are some issues if I can call it that what you're mentioning with your new setup pertaining to this subject.
> 
> ...


one year I shot an elk through both scapula with my 63# bow and 300gr muzzy tipped arrows, I got on that trail a little too quick, it went up a ridge and I wanted to see what way it went, as soon as I crest the ridge, I was 10yds from it bedded down dying, but jumped up, ran a little and fell back down, I saw an opportunity, and closed that gap to about 20 yds, he was laying in the ferns with his head up, but I was there so I decided to speed up the process.... all I could clearly see was the head, so that's what I shot.... the arrow went through and was sticking out both sides pretty much equal, then the head went down and broke my arrow. 

that is 2 situations in one elk that "shouldn't" have happened with that setup, did the same to my first deer, walked up on it alive and shot it through the head to finish it.... how heavy of bone are we talking? what percentage of your controlled shots at game do you expect to make a mistake into heavy bone? would you give up personal accuracy to add weight? (that's a real thing with a recurve)


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## roosiebull (Oct 3, 2010)

enewman said:


> Heavy arrows are not a new trend. What your seeing is a return to a heavier arrow. Light arrow was the trend. It started in the 90’s. I was there. Haha. When the carbon arrows came out. This is the same for foc. Foc has been around forever. It was mainlyba trad thing. But, it came over into compound long ago. It just was not as a big of a deal, knowing how to tune and again carbon arrows you didn’t need it. But like everything in history it comes back around.
> 
> You are just seeing itvas new because of social media. And more people are beginning to see it has some merit.
> 
> ...


good post!


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## roosiebull (Oct 3, 2010)

doutdoors said:


> 700 grain arrow on deer? or even elk? you're an idiot~


you win "best irony" reply in this thread... well done, haha


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## enewman (Jun 5, 2007)

roosiebull said:


> good post!


dang, I should proofread more. hahaha so much for spell check.


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## Michaelwebb99 (Feb 6, 2019)

It's definitely not heavy arrows that cause people to miss shots. Every bow hunter should be responsible and work on their shooting before hunting season.


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## olehemlock (Dec 10, 2004)

The simple answer to Blade1970’s question is no, you don’t need a 650gr. arrow to kill deer in the northeast.


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## H80Hunter (Jan 23, 2016)

I hate these threads but can never help myself.

Deer aren’t hard to kill. You don’t need much momentum or arrow weight.

That said, if you mostly shoot inside 30 yards you can go from 275 to about 245 and it BARELY affects trajectory. Seriously try it. If you’re a light arrow guy for speed like 280+ it’s defensible on whitetail FOR SURE and you’re probably not gonna be convinced. There’s no debate on the facts here, it’s just everyone arguing about their own preferences.

One last thought that deals with arrow speed. I think this is important and I wish everyone would consider it, wherever you land on this:

I’ve been dealing with tennis elbow in my draw arm this winter (since August, really). I dropped my bow from 70 to about 65 and then made my own sight tape at my local indoor range. Can only shoot to 35 yards. I marked 20 to 35 in 5 yard increments, just on a blank tape with a pencil. My speed at 65 lbs was ABOUT 270-275.

Anyway, after continuing to have pain, I dropped my bow all the way down to 55 lbs. and honestly, I’m a decent shot, but I basically tweaked the pointer at 20, and the same tape works for me. Yeah, when I get out this spring and put a proper tape on out to 60-70, it’s gonna change big time. But I’ve never shot a deer beyond 35, so I’m absolutely keeping the lower draw weight and slow speed (probably 240s right now).

I think in a blind test, at 30 yards, people would be TERRIBLE at guessing the difference in speed from say 240 to 270, even though when you read it on a screen or a chrono it causes great anxiety.


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## plecavalier (Jan 10, 2008)

roosiebull said:


> you win "best irony" reply in this thread... well done, haha


LMFAO in all the time I've been debating this stuff I've never once had an advocate of a light Arrow tell me it's about physics. if you told me that around the campfire I would last till I fall off of my log backwards.


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## KRONIIK (Jun 3, 2014)

Anybody else remember Tink Nathan strongly advocating unusually heavy arrows back in the early Eighties?

I think he eventually ended up marketing some sort of compressed wood (?) shaft with his brand label also.

He was getting into hunting African game at the time, and taking groups of guys with him to Africa a few years before it became very common. 
IIRC you had to be shooting over a certain weight arrow or you got "uninvited".
(No smokers either; that was a big no-no.)


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## plecavalier (Jan 10, 2008)

H80Hunter said:


> I hate these threads but can never help myself.
> 
> Deer aren’t hard to kill. You don’t need much momentum or arrow weight.
> 
> ...


I absolutely hate deer are not hard to kill attitude. Why is it then that every year I get a multitude of messages asking me to build I better Arrow because a deer was not recovered from poor penetration? Not to mention the dozen upon dozens of threads on here about help me find my dear.

They cannot be both easy to kill and not recoverable. A well-placed shot with the right gear may make it look easy. But even a well-placed shot with the wrong gear can mean one that is not recovered.

Arrow weight is in my opinion one of the biggest factors and not achieving lethal penetration. Too many people fooled by the effects of speed.


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## plecavalier (Jan 10, 2008)

KRONIIK said:


> Anybody else remember Tink Nathan strongly advocating unusually heavy arrows back in the early Eighties?
> 
> I think he eventually ended up marketing some sort of compressed wood (?) shaft with his brand label also.
> 
> ...


I still talk to him in one of the forms I'm in. He is a big advocate of the lever bow.


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## roosiebull (Oct 3, 2010)

plecavalier said:


> LMFAO in all the time I've been debating this stuff I've never once had an advocate of a light Arrow tell me it's about physics. if you told me that around the campfire I would last till I fall off of my log backwards.


the "idiot" was what sold it:set1_rolf2:


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## KRONIIK (Jun 3, 2014)

plecavalier said:


> I still talk to him in one of the forms I'm in. He is a big advocate of the lever bow.


 Cool.
I know he used to be an AT member years ago, but I haven't heard much about him lately.


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## H80Hunter (Jan 23, 2016)

plecavalier said:


> I absolutely hate deer are not hard to kill attitude. Why is it then that every year I get a multitude of messages asking me to build I better Arrow because a deer was not recovered from poor penetration? Not to mention the dozen upon dozens of threads on here about help me find my dear.
> 
> They cannot be both easy to kill and not recoverable. A well-placed shot with the right gear may make it look easy. But even a well-placed shot with the wrong gear can mean one that is not recovered.
> 
> Arrow weight is in my opinion one of the biggest factors and not achieving lethal penetration. Too many people fooled by the effects of speed.


My point, I guess (and I’m a heavy arrow guy!), is that if you shoot a modern bow you have plenty of penetration to burn with just about any arrow weight. If you make a bad shot, a heavier arrow will penetrate better, but it’s no guarantee. We over analyze this stuff to a crazy degree. Anyone who killed a deer in the 90s probably realizes how
absurd this debate has gotten. Heavy arrows penetrate better, INARGUABLY. But don’t tell a guy shooting 70 lbs and 80+ KE that he needs to shoot a log to kill a whitetail deer either.


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## plecavalier (Jan 10, 2008)

H80Hunter said:


> My point, I guess (and I’m a heavy arrow guy!), is that if you shoot a modern bow you have plenty of penetration to burn with just about any arrow weight. If you make a bad shot, a heavier arrow will penetrate better, but it’s no guarantee. We over analyze this stuff to a crazy degree. Anyone who killed a deer in the 90s probably realizes how
> absurd this debate has gotten. Heavy arrows penetrate better, INARGUABLY. But don’t tell a guy shooting 70 lbs and 80+ KE that he needs to shoot a log to kill a whitetail deer either.


True but again, I'd rather have someone overanalyzing than thinking it's easy. Just like overkill versus just enough.


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## jaximus (Feb 23, 2015)

im seeing a resistance to balance but i dont understand it. 

so ill plays devils advocate for the sake of discussion... if more is better, why stop at 650? i keep reading thay 'through testing,' KE and MO grow up to 1000-1200 grains on most bows, why not go to that weight? with shots being short, i keep reading that trajectory is moot, so whats stopping you? the bow would be even quieter, penetration even better...yes? *end sarcasm*

there is so much more to it than a simple number that we assign to arrow weight. thats just a single data point we put on the final arrow system of which you can make many internal changes to adjust its lethality. head choice being one of the biggest deciding factors on lethality and penetration potential. 

then that arrow weight must be considered in relation to the totality of the killing system where you see the influences of bow weight and draw length. 

then theres the environmental influences of species, shot distance, terrain and weather.

thats not even considering the economics of arrow building/buying...

as i read through threads like this, its painfully obvious who is a private land hunter and who hunts free range public land animals. thats not a slight at anyone, simply an observation. in my public land big woods, where deer dont have hard packed trails and its illegal to cut shooting lanes(not that i could from a climber and rarely returning to the same tree twice), trajectory does matter, even if others insist it doesnt... now for my city herd management small private parcels, i can guarantee deer at 7yds broadside on a hardpacked trail with clear lanes, but thats another story...


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## Fortyneck (Oct 8, 2010)

Lugg said:


> This thread is completely penetrated.


Ha ha

I don't know... I think only about 10" went in cuz I can still hear it bawling and smacking saplings as it runs away. :teeth:


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## plecavalier (Jan 10, 2008)

jaximus said:


> im seeing a resistance to balance but i dont understand it.
> 
> so ill plays devils advocate for the sake of discussion... if more is better, why stop at 650? i keep reading thay 'through testing,' KE and MO grow up to 1000-1200 grains on most bows, why not go to that weight? with shots being short, i keep reading that trajectory is moot, so whats stopping you? the bow would be even quieter, penetration even better...yes? *end sarcasm*
> 
> ...


I'm shooting just under [email protected] Above that would cost a lot to build and for no good reason. Deer roam free where I hunt.


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## jaximus (Feb 23, 2015)

plecavalier said:


> I'm shooting just under [email protected] Above that would cost a lot to build and for no good reason. Deer roam free where I hunt.


i think thats what a lot of people feel about going above 500ish. especially for me, above 500gr and my expense goes exponetially up because i can no longer get my shafts for $2.50 each. then add in the quantity of deer shot, (one deer states vs multi deer states, and in my case, unlimited city tags) the amount of arrows i could potentially go through in a year is higher than others. at some point cost plays a role.


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## roosiebull (Oct 3, 2010)

jaximus said:


> i think thats what a lot of people feel about going above 500ish. especially for me, above 500gr and my expense goes exponetially up because i can no longer get my shafts for $2.50 each. then add in the quantity of deer shot, (one deer states vs multi deer states, and in my case, unlimited city tags) the amount of arrows i could potentially go through in a year is higher than others. at some point cost plays a role.


cost IS a factor, I go through lots of arrows, and it wouldn't make sense to do any of my shooting with different arrows i'm hunting with (back to that "familiarization" concept) I lose/break at least a dozen arrows a year, sometimes significantly more.... to me, i'm going for quality, function, and practicality for me


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## plecavalier (Jan 10, 2008)

roosiebull said:


> how heavy of bone are we talking? what percentage of your controlled shots at game do you expect to make a mistake into heavy bone? would you give up personal accuracy to add weight? (that's a real thing with a recurve)


Well, my heavy bone(whitetail) does not equal your heavy bone(Elk) so that's a moot point to discuss on a personal level. I have an opportunity to get back to my Moose stomping grounds this spring and if all goes well I'll be taking bull moose out of there for many years to come. Then we can talk apples to apples. For what its worth, on a really bad shot on a deer (which I consider possible being that I'm shooting instinctively now) a ball joint or scapula ridge would be the heaviest I'd hit. On the joint I'd hope to retain enough integrity to deflect and still continue penetration. For the arrow I build I feel that's realistic. Scapula ridge is out of reach for me because I hunt from the ground so scapula straight on for deer should be a joke. So my only real possibility is misjudging the led position or the deer moving his leg after I loose the string. I consider those real threats. What the odds are? No idea. But that is my worse case scenario and that is what I build my arrow for. That and maybe spine but that hasn't happened yet so it's unlikely but possible.

Weight to accuracy; you loose me there. I'm pulling 50# and shooting 800gn. I've played with arrows above 1500gn and honestly, I could have taken anyone of them to the woods and felt confident with a summers worth of practice. I guess maybe that's because I play around with so many arrows I have no real bearing or comfortable spot when it comes to trajectory; I have totally destroyed that. I shoot an arrow long enough to observe it's trajectory and that's that. Not saying I'm better than anyone for doing it like that but that's just the result of not caring about trajectory for long enough.


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## roosiebull (Oct 3, 2010)

plecavalier said:


> Well, my heavy bone(whitetail) does not equal your heavy bone(Elk) so that's a moot point to discuss on a personal level. I have an opportunity to get back to my Moose stomping grounds this spring and if all goes well I'll be taking bull moose out of there for many years to come. Then we can talk apples to apples. For what its worth, on a really bad shot on a deer (which I consider possible being that I'm shooting instinctively now) a ball joint or scapula ridge would be the heaviest I'd hit. On the joint I'd hope to retain enough integrity to deflect and still continue penetration. For the arrow I build I feel that's realistic. Scapula ridge is out of reach for me because I hunt from the ground so scapula straight on for deer should be a joke. So my only real possibility is misjudging the led position or the deer moving his leg after I loose the string. I consider those real threats. What the odds are? No idea. But that is my worse case scenario and that is what I build my arrow for. That and maybe spine but that hasn't happened yet so it's unlikely but possible.
> 
> Weight to accuracy; you loose me there. I'm pulling 50# and shooting 800gn. I've played with arrows above 1500gn and honestly, I could have taken anyone of them to the woods and felt confident with a summers worth of practice. I guess maybe that's because I play around with so many arrows I have no real bearing or comfortable spot when it comes to trajectory; I have totally destroyed that. I shoot an arrow long enough to observe it's trajectory and that's that. Not saying I'm better than anyone for doing it like that but that's just the result of not caring about trajectory for long enough.


I shoot way better from my bow with 570-600gr arrow.... my mind doesn't like the gaps of 650+gr, shooting instinctively, or even aiming with the arrow, MOST people are going to lose personal accuracy somewhere, some may shoot better with super heavy, but in my experience, there are trajectories I shoot well, and those I don't. same out of my light bow, but significantly lighter arrows, and a slower bow..... 

you may be less sensitive to that for reasons you stated, but I got to a point it was "enough" and kept going until it became too much and my consistency went downhill..... things that matter to me. a 580gr arrow isn't gonna bounce off if I do my part


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## BigFish7 (Oct 19, 2017)

jaximus said:


> im seeing a resistance to balance but i dont understand it.
> 
> so ill plays devils advocate for the sake of discussion... if more is better, why stop at 650? i keep reading thay 'through testing,' KE and MO grow up to 1000-1200 grains on most bows, why not go to that weight? with shots being short, i keep reading that trajectory is moot, so whats stopping you? the bow would be even quieter, penetration even better...yes? *end sarcasm...


Selection dictates the maximum. If you read the post where I asked somebody to send me a 2317 and a 2712 or better yet a 2713 to make a 35.12 gpi shaft with probably a single digit spine index, I was being dead azz serious, but it literally takes marrying 3 shafts together and a 325 grain BH to get to just under 1500 grains. If some company starts making a decently affordable safari arrow that makes it easy to reach well over 1000 grains, then I would absolutely shoot one. But my full length 32” FMJ 250’s with lumenok, 75 HIT, 9” wrap, 4” vanes and 325 grain head hits 1000 on the money. That’s the heaviest arrow I know of. And it is heavy. But until somebody makes it possible to break a grand in grains, doing so consistently is not plausible. Scientifically speaking, of course.


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## Fortyneck (Oct 8, 2010)

Half the people on this threads heads would explode if the used the search function.

Who remembers the xXx-roid?

This thread needs more:

henro

whack&stack

Widgeon

Just to mention a few of the heads that did't just speculate, the pushed the envelope in the real world. They used one of a kind custom gear they developed themselves and like minded individuals. They didn't ask for permission or care about what the mainstream said. They tried different things. They actually knew their gear, didn't just take the douche at the pro shops word for it. They didn't use calculators they WERE calculators... I think it's time to get some of their opinions on the subject.

So to answer the OP: Because they feel like it.

Question for you; Uh... Why on earth do you care so much about other peoples bowhunting gear choices?


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## BigFish7 (Oct 19, 2017)

Therein lies the problem fortyneck, archery plateaued somewhere between 2004-2010 and now all people have to get excited about is a Dr/dentist publishing papers about shooting dead buffalo with weight forward arrows. The rest of the innovators remain silent as they sleep soundly knowing their stuff, and don’t get trolled. Talking about heavy arrows is a reversion of the sport, going back to what works every time. Maybe NAP will start making 160/180 grain thunderheads again.


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## Fortyneck (Oct 8, 2010)

BigFish7 said:


> Therein lies the problem fortyneck, archery plateaued somewhere between 2004-2010 and now all people have to get excited about is a Dr/dentist publishing papers about shooting dead buffalo with weight forward arrows. The rest of the innovators remain silent as they sleep soundly knowing their stuff, and don’t get trolled. Talking about heavy arrows is a reversion of the sport, going back to what works every time. Maybe NAP will start making 160/180 grain thunderheads again.


:darkbeer:

I thought this thread would just die like the buffalo, lol, But, let the war cry be heard!

For the record, the longer this thread goes on the slower my arrows go! FTW!


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

Fortyneck said:


> Half the people on this threads heads would explode if the used the search function.
> 
> Who remembers the xXx-roid?
> 
> ...


Threads like these and this site in general have pushed a lot of good posters away from this website. So many people clouding good information every other post with useless bs and hearsay because most of their archery knowledge is what’s spewed to them by the guy selling whatever he has left on his bow rack. What’s the percentage on guys & gals who even have the tuning knowledge to build a heavy arrow or high foc correctly for spine for their setups? It’s gotta be low as we can all tell reading threads like these over and over again. Speed is what all these guys get sold on to boost their egos and make them feel like the best hunters in the woods. 

This topic has been beaten to death on this site and keeps coming back because nobody ever wants to search or try and test different things for themselves. To people saying whitetails in the northeast aren’t heavy boned or tough and can’t stop a light fast arrow, you haven’t shot one in the hard bones of the shoulder/leg, or you’re a liar. I’ve posted results of shooting fresh real deer shoulder and how tough they are. If anybody would like to argue this, go copy my test and post your own results. Still nobody has since I’ve done it. 

Here’s my original thread which is a long read as to why I hunt with heavy, high foc arrows and single bevel broadheads using as much of Ashby’s penetration enhancing factors as I can to be a more lethal, humane and effective killing machine: https://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=1685182

Here’s my penetration testing on a real deer shoulder: https://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=1859108

Btw, I’d love to see somebody else try this testing and I’ll even donate a couple of my new hunting build arrows for testing. Might even motivate me to do another one of my own. It needs to be fresh real deer shoulder though. Everybody says it’s so hard get the test media but we all shoot deer every year. Use a shoulder from a doe you shoot right after you harvest it. It’s not that hard to setup.


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## crankn101 (Jan 26, 2007)

LOLOLOLOLOLOL!!!!

Good lord, talk about beating a dead horse.


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

crankn101 said:


> LOLOLOLOLOLOL!!!!
> 
> Good lord, talk about beating a dead horse.


Case and point. Still the same dbag you’ve always been with nothing informative to add. 


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## BigFish7 (Oct 19, 2017)

Henro I remember reading that thread, and it’s a great thread. I’m about to build an arrow I think you’d approve of:

Accidentally bought some .166ID VAP’s .350 spine. Long story. But trying to think of what i can do with them, I’m going to cut them to ~28” and I have some 125 grain .166 inserts coming in the mail. Anyways, I found some 1980’s era 29” 1713 shafts that fit over the carbons by .005”. I’m going to JB weld a couple of the VAP’s inside of the aluminums. I’ll use my chamfer to get the aluminum edges flush, then bevel the inside wall with my dremel to get a flush fit with the insert, then cut the carbon accordingly. 

Next I’m going to get a 1913 or 1914 to put over the 1713, repeat the chamfering, beveling and cutting, until I have a double aluminum walled carbon core arrow with a 125 grain insert double footed by the shafts!

I’m going to try and build out 3 of them and test them full poundage out of the 98lb Maxxis DG RKT, they should end up weighing about 24-25 gpi, and I’m mathematizing they will weigh 825 grains just shaft/insert. Adding a Vision Quest 300gr single bevel gets me to 1125 with a 20 grain lumenok and 4 fletched feathers plus wrap, I’ll end up around 1170, probably over 20% foc and hopefully going +200fps!

Anyway, I don’t want to sound like I’m bragging, I’m glad to see you’re still kicking around these parts. You were the first person i friend requested when i joined AT. I’ll let you know if I’m ever going to take a crack at replicating your test. Be well man, Cheers!


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

BigFish7 said:


> Henro I remember reading that thread, and it’s a great thread. I’m about to build an arrow I think you’d approve of:
> 
> Accidentally bought some .166ID VAP’s .350 spine. Long story. But trying to think of what i can do with them, I’m going to cut them to ~28” and I have some 125 grain .166 inserts coming in the mail. Anyways, I found some 1980’s era 29” 1713 shafts that fit over the carbons by .005”. I’m going to JB weld a couple of the VAP’s inside of the aluminums. I’ll use my chamfer to get the aluminum edges flush, then bevel the inside wall with my dremel to get a flush fit with the insert, then cut the carbon accordingly.
> 
> ...


That’s pretty rad congrats. I have no clue how that arrow will end for for spine but you’ll never know until you build it. That bow is a monster so it’ll need to be extremely stiff. Send me a message once you finish the build I definitely wanna hear the results!


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## crankn101 (Jan 26, 2007)

henro said:


> Case and point. Still the same dbag you’ve always been with nothing informative to add.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


 ........


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## crankn101 (Jan 26, 2007)

I already have infractions right now....


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

crankn101 said:


> Same *** saying the crap.


Damn bro you got me there with that super witty reply? Do you have a notification setup when I post to light up your miserable day so you can remind everybody how moronic your posts are? Must’ve taken you months to think that one up huh? 


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## crankn101 (Jan 26, 2007)

Youre just a little baby and dont like people that dont bow to you.


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

crankn101 said:


> Youre just a little baby and dont like people that dont bow to you.


Hey man thanks so much for crawling out of the rock you’re living under to add all this super informative information to help this thread carry on! What would this website be without intelligent insightful people like yourself? I can’t wait to read more of what you have to say!


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## crankn101 (Jan 26, 2007)

At least I didnt have to run to another dying website to post with 5 dudes that all agree with me.

#SNOWFLAKE


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

crankn101 said:


> At least I didnt have to run to another dying website to post with 5 dudes that all agree with me.
> 
> #SNOWFLAKE


How drunk are you right now? You literally make 0 sense. Mods can delete these posts as they’re not adding anything to the thread.


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## huntfish25 (May 29, 2004)

i been shoot a 600gr arrows for years. i used a range finder. if i missed it me not the bow or the arrow. people are missing because they shoot a very fast bow and a short brace height with very little forgiving bows. they sit all day shooting at targets at perfect form but when you are standing on the ground or in a tree stand at a live target they you may have a second to shoot at the animals it a lot of things that can go wrong. they may blame the bow, the arrow or the judgment but the fact is it them who is missing. yes a lighter arrow can fly flatter but just a twitch can throw that arrow off. like i said before ether you shoot a target bow or a hunting bow you can have both but you will give up accuracy. i like heavy arrows because if i hit a bone it will go through the deer, i have broken backs and shoulder many times


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## plecavalier (Jan 10, 2008)

BigFish7 said:


> Henro I remember reading that thread, and it’s a great thread. I’m about to build an arrow I think you’d approve of:
> 
> Accidentally bought some .166ID VAP’s .350 spine. Long story. But trying to think of what i can do with them, I’m going to cut them to ~28” and I have some 125 grain .166 inserts coming in the mail. Anyways, I found some 1980’s era 29” 1713 shafts that fit over the carbons by .005”. I’m going to JB weld a couple of the VAP’s inside of the aluminums. I’ll use my chamfer to get the aluminum edges flush, then bevel the inside wall with my dremel to get a flush fit with the insert, then cut the carbon accordingly.
> 
> ...


 A duplex insert would help that build.


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## enewman (Jun 5, 2007)

crankn101 said:


> At least I didnt have to run to another dying website to post with 5 dudes that all agree with me.
> 
> #SNOWFLAKE


Dang crank. I know it’s fun to screw with people. I do it. But why do you always do it on threads that talk about mass, or foc or heck any type of thread that can be educational. It’s like when the name ashby is posted you must have alarms and lights going off. I have no clue how you find them. You should just try one day to not post or say something with some intelligence to it.


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## enewman (Jun 5, 2007)

1346gr. That is a 600gr bishop head. Should come in around 163fps. Not bad for my 26.5 Draw


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## BigFish7 (Oct 19, 2017)

plecavalier said:


> A duplex insert would help that build.


Okay, I googled it, couldn’t find it, what is it? Also for education sake, how will it help the build? Thanks!


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## 3D Pinwheeler (Jan 29, 2007)

enewman said:


> 1346gr. That is a 600gr bishop head. Should come in around 163fps. Not bad for my 26.5 Draw


You do have short arms


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## plecavalier (Jan 10, 2008)

BigFish7 said:


> Okay, I googled it, couldn’t find it, what is it? Also for education sake, how will it help the build? Thanks!


I like integrity big time. So I came up with an insert that allows me to put my footer inside the shaft. No claim to fame here, I came up with this totally on my own out of necessity but a few other manufacturers have developed very similar products over time.

In a nutshell, it is an insert that the shank fits the inner shaft and collar is flush with the outer shaft.

- it staggers the join of the two shaft which is stronger
- it makes the collar send the initial shock of impact down the length of the main shaft rather than a short piece of footer
- with a typical footer the small piece is only supported by glue whereas this is supported by the insert and main shaft.


I do did this for my beloved 2317 aluminum arrows but the concept is applicable for any shaft that has a matching duplex shaft.























In your case you'd have the OD of the shank catered to the ID of the inner most shaft (2317) and the collar to the 2713's. But like I said, can be for any shaft. Henro had one made for his GT shafts.

I'm working on one that will be fully glue-in / glue-on to completely eliminate threads as a weak point as well.


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## Gruder (Feb 19, 2016)

UntitledAT

Threads like these and this site in general have pushed a lot of good posters away from this website. So many people clouding good information every other post with useless bs and hearsay because most of their archery knowledge is what’s spewed to them by the guy selling whatever he has left on his bow rack. What’s the percentage on guys & gals who even have the tuning knowledge to build a heavy arrow or high foc correctly for spine for their setups? It’s gotta be low as we can all tell reading threads like these over and over again. Speed is what all these guys get sold on to boost their egos and make them feel like the best hunters in the woods. 

This topic has been beaten to death on this site and keeps coming back because nobody ever wants to search or try and test different things for themselves. To people saying whitetails in the northeast aren’t heavy boned or tough and can’t stop a light fast arrow, you haven’t shot one in the hard bones of the shoulder/leg, or you’re a liar. I’ve posted results of shooting fresh real deer shoulder and how tough they are. If anybody would like to argue this, go copy my test and post your own results. Still nobody has since I’ve done it. 

Here’s my original thread which is a long read as to why I hunt with heavy, high foc arrows and single bevel broadheads using as much of Ashby’s penetration enhancing factors as I can to be a more lethal, humane and effective killing machine: https://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=1685182

Here’s my penetration testing on a real deer shoulder: https://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=1859108

Btw, I’d love to see somebody else try this testing and I’ll even donate a couple of my new hunting build arrows for testing. Might even motivate me to do another one of my own. It needs to be fresh real deer shoulder though. Everybody says it’s so hard get the test media but we all shoot deer every year. Use a shoulder from a doe you shoot right after you harvest it. It’s not that hard to 

Have no idea why I'm jumping in again except I'm layed up and bored. I'd like to go thru this post just for the HOI.
1) agree that many posters push people away
2) I don't agree most posters here spew info they hear at the pro shop and don't believe it clouds other info. Pretty easy to tell who has experience 
3) it's not complicated or hard to build a heavy, or any arrow. You don't need a calculator or program, you just need the components to add or subtract and tools to tune your bow. You want a heavy arrow start with a stiffer spine because adding weight weakens spine, light arrow, weaker spine. Heavy draw weight stiffer spine. Enough of that. It's just not as hard as some of you make it sound. There seems to be a lot of newbies that are learning but I'm sure they will.
4) tuning the bow to arrow is not that hard either. Plenty of info right here to figure it out. You need to put in the time. Like ontarget7 and many others say. Get the arrow in line with the power stroke, he calls it aim string. Do it with yokes, shims, rest, whatever. Enough of that!
5) Speed boost their egos? I think it's more like, it's what gets them excited, amazed, interested. We're big little boys again. Wow you see that? See how fast that went? That's super cool! Thwing-Thwack! Not, thunk---------------smash! Boring, to some. Point is there is reason a plenty for everyone to enjoy archery, not only heavy gets it done best. 
6) I also seriously doubt hunters that shoot speed think they're the best in the woods because of it. Anyway they get found out pretty quick. Analogy; I coached my daughters travel softball team for a few years, the pitchers always thought they were better than the other pitchers and I always said "well we'll find out soon enough, as soon as you get on the mound". It's hard to argue when you get pounded and some don't, results.
7) Agree 100% with how tough a whitetail can be. Being from the Midwest I've seen some big boned solid muscled deer!
8) I haven't read henros test but I really don't need too. I'm sure I'll agree on every point, just like I agree with the rest of the heavy arrow results. The Ranch Fairy has arguably the best test lab possible and to me his findings on penetrating hogs is indisputable.
I guess what it comes down to is what is the most important to you as an archer. I don't hear many argue that heavy isn't more effective as far as blasting thru an animal especially on bone but here's the thing,
Many DONT CARE! They have their own reasons for shooting what they do and are not going to change their setup, even if they know it's better. They have their own VALID reasons to shoot what they shoot. Now the most important thing to the heavy guys is to maximize their chance at a quick clean kill, especially if shot is not perfect. Great, very admirable and respectable but it doesn't mean they are better or are more knowledgable or whatever, some know it, believe it but DONT CARE! about that point as much as the other decisions they made about their setup. Why can't some except that and leave them alone?


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## BDHUNTR (May 24, 2003)

Gruder, you have done way more in depth research than I have ever done (or will do) on this subject. My "research" has been limited to what empirical evidence I have gathered in the field. 

I have no axe to grind or point to prove. All I know is that when I switched from a medium-weight arrow (450-500 grains) to a lighter arrow (365-400 grains) to gain speed, I noticed a discernible drop in penetration. Enough so that I switched back to arrows weighing 450-500 grains. My full pass-thru % went back up to almost 100%. 

Others may have different results. If so, that's great. I just didn't see what I wanted to see, which was a bloody arrow stuck in the ground after every kill shot.


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## Gruder (Feb 19, 2016)

my personal experience has shown me the same thing. Last few years I've been adding weight and I have seen they are going slower but hitting harder. Highest weight was 475ish I believe. It works no doubt but as I drop in poundage I'm just gonna experiment with arrows, weights and tunings and find a speed and weight that works for me and my bow. I still don't think it's right or wrong. Unless your going after very big game.
Really the most awesome setup that some guys have on here is the 70+ #age, long draw, heavy arrow, fast speeds.....they have it all and could blast though bone with a mech if they want.
But I gotta shut up before I say something stupid. Adios amigos


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## Early Ice (Mar 18, 2008)

enewman said:


> 1346gr. That is a 600gr bishop head. Should come in around 163fps. Not bad for my 26.5 Draw


That is BAD AZZ!!!!


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## shootstraight (Apr 28, 2005)

enewman said:


> Dang crank. I know it’s fun to screw with people. I do it. But why do you always do it on threads that talk about mass, or foc or heck any type of thread that can be educational. It’s like when the name ashby is posted you must have alarms and lights going off. I have no clue how you find them. You should just try one day to not post or say something with some intelligence to it.


Lol, he’s in the penalty box for now.


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## enewman (Jun 5, 2007)

shootstraight said:


> Lol, he’s in the penalty box for now.


Hahha. I just got out of face jail again hahaha.

I don’t know crank. He may be a good guy. I think he just likes to stir the pot. Normally that doesn’t bother me. But I have let him get under my skin hahaha. But over the last year or so I have pulled back on how I post here on Archerytalk. Well most of the time Hehehehe.


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## enewman (Jun 5, 2007)

Early Ice said:


> That is BAD AZZ!!!!


I doubt I’ll ever hunt with that set up. That arrow was given to me so I don’t want to lose or break it. But I am going to build an arrow off that bishop and go shoot a hog with it. I’m figuring around a 1000gr. But we will have to see. 

It will be an arrow for testing and showing it. It gives me more experiance so when I’m talking heavy I have the background data on that set up. To date my heaviest arrow I’ve hunted with was around 630 to 640 I think I don’t remember exactly. I did not kill with it. My heaviest arrow to kill with has been just under 550.


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## Early Ice (Mar 18, 2008)

enewman said:


> I doubt I’ll ever hunt with that set up. That arrow was given to me so I don’t want to lose or break it. But I am going to build an arrow off that bishop and go shoot a hog with it. I’m figuring around a 1000gr. But we will have to see.
> 
> It will be an arrow for testing and showing it. It gives me more experiance so when I’m talking heavy I have the background data on that set up. To date my heaviest arrow I’ve hunted with was around 630 to 640 I think I don’t remember exactly. I did not kill with it. My heaviest arrow to kill with has been just under 550.


If you shoot a deer with that arrow at 1200 grains, you can just see the grimace on the deer's face. 

Not that you want to take low percentage shots, but with an arrow like that, i'd take a quartering to and just put it on the leg bone. Nothing is stopping it. I have a shoulder issue, have for about 10 years now. I'm at 50lbs and still shoot 600 grains. If was in shape and had the strength when I was a young man in my 20-30's, i wouldn't hesitate to pull 70lbs and a faster bow and throw out a log like that. 1200 grains at 200FPS, you'd just wreck chit!! 

For me, I have shot many "speed" bows so to speak but never did it for speed. I'd always try to increase weight to keep it in that 250fps area. Know I know that random FPS number is just stupid. Speed doesn't mean a thing really if you take good shots and keep em within 25 years. Stuff dies. 

a good test for a heavy arrow is a turkey....i've had more turkey hold an arrow than i've had deer. Those things are armor plated. I have yet to kill a turkey with a heavy arrow, everything is the past with pretty light, 440 with a slick trick. Several didn't pass through. Pretty sad actually, you are shooting a 18lb on average bird and can't push a arrow through it with a decent fixed head.


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## plecavalier (Jan 10, 2008)

Early Ice said:


> If you shoot a deer with that arrow at 1200 grains, you can just see the grimace on the deer's face.
> 
> Not that you want to take low percentage shots, but with an arrow like that, i'd take a quartering to and just put it on the leg bone. Nothing is stopping it. I have a shoulder issue, have for about 10 years now. I'm at 50lbs and still shoot 600 grains. If was in shape and had the strength when I was a young man in my 20-30's, i wouldn't hesitate to pull 70lbs and a faster bow and throw out a log like that. 1200 grains at 200FPS, you'd just wreck chit!!


You can still do that. I know youth and women pulling 45 or less shooting well over 700gn. 15+ GPP is where the fun is at!

If I was the youngster I once was I'd lower my draw even more and take a deer through the leg with 1200 grain, 20gpp arrow just to prove a point. But I'm not that person anymore. Haven't been for a long time.


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## Early Ice (Mar 18, 2008)

plecavalier said:


> You can still do that. I know youth and women pulling 45 or less shooting well over 700gn. 15+ GPP is where the fun is at!
> 
> If I was the youngster I once was I'd lower my draw even more and take a deer through the leg with 1200 grain, 20gpp arrow just to prove a point. But I'm not that person anymore. Haven't been for a long time.


Yeah I know, but at somepoint you have to draw a line or building arrows and chasing a weight becomes an obsession. At least that's where i found myself. you make irrational decisions and just keep buying, next thing you know you have 7 different weight broadheads and 100 field tips of various weights and one big headache. I will pound deer with that 600 grain arrow and be happy for now.....until i hit a high shoulder and wish I had 800. LOL.
Hunting just needs to get here so I can be in a tree 3-4 nights a week for 4 months....then I don't think about anything but where i'm hunting next.


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## mhchrismon (Nov 27, 2018)

so the heavier arrows trend is about getting the most kinetic energy to the target as possible. there is a sweet spot between the weight and speed to obtain the most kinetic energy therefore more pass-throughs. my sweetspot is around 480 grains not too light that it borderline bounces off the deer but not too heavy that it decreases your range. in addition for my bow setup my arrow flight is best at around 280fps


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## Early Ice (Mar 18, 2008)

mhchrismon said:


> so the heavier arrows trend is about getting the most kinetic energy to the target as possible. there is a sweet spot between the weight and speed to obtain the most kinetic energy therefore more pass-throughs. my sweetspot is around 480 grains not too light that it borderline bounces off the deer but not too heavy that it decreases your range. in addition for my bow setup my arrow flight is best at around 280fps


Yes but let's not use KE when talking about this because you can have KE equal with a light arrow traveling high speeds or a super heavy arrow at low speeds. It's about mass and momentum. Sure Ke is part of the equation....but we'll keep KE out of this talk for now. Best way to explain is for you to answer this question and then you'll have all the answers you need. 

would your rather take your chances with a ping pong ball to the forehead at 150 mph

or

a golf ball at 80MPH?

Everyone's range limit is different, but you'd be shocked to find out that adding 50 grains barely does a thing to an arrow out to 25 yards. in your case especially. 280 fps is smoking fast.


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## plecavalier (Jan 10, 2008)

mhchrismon said:


> so the heavier arrows trend is about getting the most kinetic energy to the target as possible. there is a sweet spot between the weight and speed to obtain the most kinetic energy therefore more pass-throughs. my sweetspot is around 480 grains not too light that it borderline bounces off the deer but not too heavy that it decreases your range. in addition for my bow setup my arrow flight is best at around 280fps


Nope. Reread. First KE is not the right thing to look at. Yes it is part of the equation but focusing on KE will have you build the fastest arrow based on velocity alone and that's not the one with the most energy.

Weight drives momentum. As you add weight you increase KE so you build a better arrow. As you add weight KE and momentum grow and there is no point of negative return therefore there is no sweet spot. The only way to determine what is right for you is that point where you feel trajectory has lowered beyond what you feel is efficient. It's a personal choice. Problem is people want too flat and short change themselves on momentum. Don't let speed of an arrow dictate the weight you need.

That's said, 480 is fine for whitetail u less you're not happy with the penetration you're getting.


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## jaximus (Feb 23, 2015)

Early Ice said:


> Yeah I know, but at somepoint you have to draw a line or building arrows and chasing a weight becomes an obsession. At least that's where i found myself. you make irrational decisions and just keep buying, next thing you know you have 7 different weight broadheads and 100 field tips of various weights and one big headache. I will pound deer with that 600 grain arrow and be happy for now.....until i hit a high shoulder and wish I had 800. LOL.
> Hunting just needs to get here so I can be in a tree 3-4 nights a week for 4 months....then I don't think about anything but where i'm hunting next.


i think this confession sums things it up pretty well. and its not just chasing weight, its tinkering with builds in general. the bug bit me pretty hard as well until i stumbled into my current setup. i had piles of parts and all sorts of random shafts, but i wanted to streamline down to one setup. once i found a shaft i could get for silly cheap, it was all about maximizing it. once that was done, ive shot that same arrow for a while and my consistency has improved. i use the same arrows for rodents, grouse, geese, turkeys, bear and deer, so every single shot i take improves my familiarity with my setup.


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## plecavalier (Jan 10, 2008)

jaximus said:


> i think this confession sums things it up pretty well. and its not just chasing weight, its tinkering with builds in general. the bug bit me pretty hard as well until i stumbled into my current setup. i had piles of parts and all sorts of random shafts, but i wanted to streamline down to one setup. once i found a shaft i could get for silly cheap, it was all about maximizing it. once that was done, ive shot that same arrow for a while and my consistency has improved. i use the same arrows for rodents, grouse, geese, turkeys, bear and deer, so every single shot i take improves my familiarity with my setup.


That's not a problem for everyone.


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## Early Ice (Mar 18, 2008)

plecavalier said:


> That's not a problem for everyone.


No, everyone needs hobbies and brain stimulation. Building arrows and tuning bows can seriously be an every day hobby. I know you have a passion for the research and experimentation which i truly respect. I used to be that guy when it came to bow tuning and knowing the "why". 

My personal opinion is that if you have a arrow 550+ you have a pretty good insurance policy. For me, I needed to take a step back and "go with" what i have and kill some more stuff before I go with more weight. I feel good at 600, cause I didn't have many issues at 440, then 530...and now 600. "Building arrows money" is now being investing in open water fishing gear. Pick your poison.


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## enewman (Jun 5, 2007)

mhchrismon said:


> so the heavier arrows trend is about getting the most kinetic energy to the target as possible. there is a sweet spot between the weight and speed to obtain the most kinetic energy therefore more pass-throughs. my sweetspot is around 480 grains not too light that it borderline bounces off the deer but not too heavy that it decreases your range. in addition for my bow setup my arrow flight is best at around 280fps


The heavy arrow is not the trend. Light arrows is the trend. What you are seeing is the change back to heavy.


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## plecavalier (Jan 10, 2008)

Early Ice said:


> No, everyone needs hobbies and brain stimulation. Building arrows and tuning bows can seriously be an every day hobby. I know you have a passion for the research and experimentation which i truly respect. I used to be that guy when it came to bow tuning and knowing the "why".
> 
> My personal opinion is that if you have a arrow 550+ you have a pretty good insurance policy. For me, I needed to take a step back and "go with" what i have and kill some more stuff before I go with more weight. I feel good at 600, cause I didn't have many issues at 440, then 530...and now 600. "Building arrows money" is now being investing in open water fishing gear. Pick your poison.


Agreed.


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## nightvision (Aug 30, 2011)

I really want to understand why anyone cares what somebody else shoots. Some guy posted he hunts with a 1000 grain arrow. Is that for me? Heck no but who am I to say he is wrong or an idiot? It’s his bow, his arrows, time and money. Guess I’m just a mind your own business kind of fellow.

Straight arrows everyone.


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## roosiebull (Oct 3, 2010)

nightvision said:


> I really want to understand why anyone cares what somebody else shoots. Some guy posted he hunts with a 1000 grain arrow. Is that for me? Heck no but who am I to say he is wrong or an idiot? It’s his bow, his arrows, time and money. Guess I’m just a mind your own business kind of fellow.
> 
> Straight arrows everyone.


especially if that person has success with that setup.... it almost seems people take offense to the arrow another person shoots these threads to me are a testament to how crazy efficient modern bows are, people have consistent success with a wide range of arrow weights.

I have seen a big mature roosie bull killed with a very low energy setup (50lbs, 24" draw, 400gr arrow, and a late 90's Hoyt) that bull literally took 2 steps and fell over dead, and that bow had some serious pin gaps, it was SLOW....then we have the other extreme (70+lb bows with over 650+gr arrows) lots of room to play in that range. I don't know why people claim there is a "best" range of arrow weight/draw weight, obviously there is a very wide effective range on arrow weight.... pick what you have confidence in and works for you... if at some point you aren't pleased with the results, change until you are. 

there is no problem using your own trial and error to find that right combo for what you do.


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## enewman (Jun 5, 2007)

roosiebull said:


> especially if that person has success with that setup.... it almost seems people take offense to the arrow another person shoots these threads to me are a testament to how crazy efficient modern bows are, people have consistent success with a wide range of arrow weights.
> 
> I have seen a big mature roosie bull killed with a very low energy setup (50lbs, 24" draw, 400gr arrow, and a late 90's Hoyt) that bull literally took 2 steps and fell over dead, and that bow had some serious pin gaps, it was SLOW....then we have the other extreme (70+lb bows with over 650+gr arrows) lots of room to play in that range. I don't know why people claim there is a "best" range of arrow weight/draw weight, obviously there is a very wide effective range on arrow weight.... pick what you have confidence in and works for you... if at some point you aren't pleased with the results, change until you are.
> 
> there is no problem using your own trial and error to find that right combo for what you do.


I agree. But it depends on the thread. Like this one. “ why on earth would we need a 650 for whitetail in the north east”. That would mean it’s a free for all. Both sides to post. Heavy and light and give there reason why. A post asking about wanting to build heavy should be people for building heavy. Light arrows are for light arrow people. 

The fun post are “build me an hunting arrow”. Now the battle starts. Haha. 

Post like this are nothing but trying to start crap. That’s it. This post was not a teaching or helping post. Although I think several people tried to make it that way. It was just stir the pot post.


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## nicko (Feb 17, 2006)

If I shot a 650 grain arrow out of my setup, the arrow would be traveling a whopping 174 FPS. But if it works for somebody, have at it.


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

Gruder said:


> 3) it's not complicated or hard to build a heavy, or any arrow. You don't need a calculator or program, you just need the components to add or subtract and tools to tune your bow. You want a heavy arrow start with a stiffer spine because adding weight weakens spine, light arrow, weaker spine. Heavy draw weight stiffer spine. Enough of that. It's just not as hard as some of you make it sound. There seems to be a lot of newbies that are learning but I'm sure they will.
> 4) tuning the bow to arrow is not that hard either. Plenty of info right here to figure it out. You need to put in the time. Like ontarget7 and many others say. Get the arrow in line with the power stroke, he calls it aim string. Do it with yokes, shims, rest, whatever. Enough of that!
> 5) Speed boost their egos? I think it's more like, it's what gets them excited, amazed, interested. We're big little boys again. Wow you see that? See how fast that went? That's super cool! Thwing-Thwack! Not, thunk---------------smash! Boring, to some. Point is there is reason a plenty for everyone to enjoy archery, not only heavy gets it done best.


I’m not saying the arrow building or tuning is hard, it’s really not. I’m saying a lot of the same guys who come in trolling these type of threads every time they come up show how little they know on these subjects virtually every time. The arguments most definitely stem from the speed/ego department most of the time. There’s plenty of people(99% of my friend’s personally) who can have a conversation about this stuff that don’t shoot heavy arrows or high foc or like Ashby stuff and don’t come in running their mouths, but the ones that do always ruin these threads. There’s been so many threads that go for many 100s of posts in the past to show this whether you or anybody searches or not. That’s why I’ve said a lot of good long time posters don’t care to waste their time here anymore, no matter what you like to shoot or believe works better. 

Enough talking about this. Who wants to do a deer shoulder penetration test???


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## nightvision (Aug 30, 2011)

^ To both of you. It just amazes me. I don’t care if you throw Spears or bantam weight arrows. They both can help or hurt you. There will be times when you may wish you had one or the other but it’s the individuals choice and it’s their success or failure. People seem to get pissed at other people’s choices. Amazing


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## Gruder (Feb 19, 2016)

Quote - Enough talking about this. Who wants to do a deer shoulder penetration test???
Lol, not that you care but I like you already.
The rest, understood. :cheers:


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

Gruder said:


> Quote - Enough talking about this. Who wants to do a deer shoulder penetration test???
> Lol, not that you care but I like you already.
> The rest, understood. :cheers:





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## enewman (Jun 5, 2007)

henro said:


> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


what's the deal henro back in 2010 I went to shooting the mr5 so did you. 2018 I went to shooting the pse expedite now so are you. are you stocking me? hahaha, I sure like this pse how about you. I'm shooting the fast mod. at 75% i tried it at 65% that sucked hahaah


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

enewman said:


> what's the deal henro back in 2010 I went to shooting the mr5 so did you. 2018 I went to shooting the pse expedite now so are you. are you stocking me? hahaha, I sure like this pse how about you. I'm shooting the fast mod. at 75% i tried it at 65% that sucked hahaah


Great minds think alike lol. Breathn and Team Overkill got me on the PSE trail when I first got my Full Throttle. The Xpedite is my favorite hunting bow I’ve ever owned. It’s super forgiving and still packing plenty of punch with a silky smooth draw and deadly quiet with 680gr arrows. I centered my current bow and arrow build around foregiveness and lethality. The Full Throttle was just too extreme for hunting situations for me when I’m excited and not wanting to think about anything but killing the deer. I went to a smoother draw, high letoff mods and even back to a wrist release so I wouldn’t have the trigger bumped again accidentally by gloves(happened twice). I switched to a 4-pin slider sight so I wouldn’t have to think about close shots but still have more refinement accuracy wise at longer ranges with the heavier arrows. I switched back from feathers to vanes for the durability. The deer has so many advantages so I wanted to simplify what I could on my end. The arrow build is the toughest most durable and lethal I’ve come up with yet. 680gr, 25% FOC,249fps, internally & externally footed, single bevel broadheads, lighted nock, etc. I could’ve gone more extreme with foc or weight but I wanted this package to work together with quality readily available components and be very very strong and lethal. I need some hard bone impacts on deer shoulders to really put them to the test. 


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## enewman (Jun 5, 2007)

henro said:


> Great minds think alike lol. Breathn and Team Overkill got me on the PSE trail when I first got my Full Throttle. The Xpedite is my favorite hunting bow I’ve ever owned. It’s super forgiving and still packing plenty of punch with a silky smooth draw and deadly quiet with 680gr arrows. I centered my current bow and arrow build around foregiveness and lethality. The Full Throttle was just too extreme for hunting situations for me when I’m excited and not wanting to think about anything but killing the deer. I went to a smoother draw, high letoff mods and even back to a wrist release so I wouldn’t have the trigger bumped again accidentally by gloves(happened twice). I switched to a 4-pin slider sight so I wouldn’t have to think about close shots but still have more refinement accuracy wise at longer ranges with the heavier arrows. I switched back from feathers to vanes for the durability. The deer has so many advantages so I wanted to simplify what I could on my end. The arrow build is the toughest most durable and lethal I’ve come up with yet. 680gr, 25% FOC,249fps, internally & externally footed, single bevel broadheads, lighted nock, etc. I could’ve gone more extreme with foc or weight but I wanted this package to work together with quality readily available components and be very very strong and lethal. I need some hard bone impacts on deer shoulders to really put them to the test.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


sounds like you like it. haha for my short darw its a screamer for me. i know one thing for sure if i could shoot a 680 at 249 i sure as hell would be shooting a 680 wow.


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

enewman said:


> sounds like you like it. haha for my short darw its a screamer for me. i know one thing for sure if i could shoot a 680 at 249 i sure as hell would be shooting a 680 wow.


Agreed and like I said that speed is with the super smooth high letoff 90% mods. The only thing to contend with at full draw and a big buck in front of you is the buck fever lol. Heavy arrow efficiency is a beautiful thing and this bow doesn’t feel like a speed bow at all. 29”/70lbs is 373ibo adjusted for a 680gr arrow @ 249fps. 


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## 2ndwindfarm (Mar 1, 2015)

Kinetic energy kills not weight. Some bow get more KE WITH lighter arrow. Mine does beat with 400g arrow and get 85KE. which will kill anything. Depends on the bow. Most people shot over not under 

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## TimmyZ7 (Aug 11, 2010)

BigFish7 said:


> Therein lies the problem fortyneck, archery plateaued somewhere between 2004-2010 and now all people have to get excited about is a Dr/dentist publishing papers about shooting dead buffalo with weight forward arrows. The rest of the innovators remain silent as they sleep soundly knowing their stuff, and don’t get trolled. Talking about heavy arrows is a reversion of the sport, going back to what works every time. Maybe NAP will start making 160/180 grain thunderheads again.


I’ve said many times over that confidence in one’s setup is key. Knowing your equipment because you’ve taken the time to make it an extension of your body when in hand is what produces reoccurring results. I actually set my bows and arrows up around the types of heads I shoot and animals that I pursue. I’m a big mechanical broadhead shooter as many know. What many may not know is that Henro and I, as well as the rest of Team Overkill, have different objectives almost entirely for our setups. Nonetheless, we respect the ambition that each other has for pursuing maximum efficiency from our particular setups. Onepin and I are just as enthusiastic over Sethro and Henro’s setups as our own. Bambikiller builds setups for both schools of thought. Ironically we all admire one another’s enthusiasm and have become great friends as a result.

What many seemingly fail to understand is that there is not a right or wrong approach so long as a person understands the limitations of their personal setup. More significantly, I wish that many would stop drawing the dividing lines and saying you can only be on one side or the other. I never accepted another man’s limitations as my own. I stopped posting as much because people don’t want to think for themselves anymore they just want to fall in line with the trends. Be true to yourself gentleman.


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

2ndwindfarm said:


> Kinetic energy kills not weight. Some bow get more KE WITH lighter arrow. Mine does beat with 400g arrow and get 85KE. which will kill anything. Depends on the bow. Most people shot over not under
> 
> Sent from my SM-J337A using Tapatalk


This is incorrect. Kinetic energy has no linear impact on penetration potential as it increases. Momentum is the factor that shows a linear effect of penetration potential as is it increases which is directly impacted by mass increasing on a given bow setup. 


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

TimmyZ7 said:


> I’ve said many times over that confidence in one’s setup is key. Knowing your equipment because you’ve taken the time to make it an extension of your body when in hand is what produces reoccurring results. I actually set my bows and arrows up around the types of heads I shoot and animals that I pursue. I’m a big mechanical broadhead shooter as many know. What many may not know is that Henro and I, as well as the rest of Team Overkill, have different objectives almost entirely for our setups. Nonetheless, we respect the ambition that each other has for pursuing maximum efficiency from our particular setups. Onepin and I are just as enthusiastic over Sethro and Henro’s setups as our own. Bambikiller builds setups for both schools of thought. Ironically we all admire one another’s enthusiasm and have become great friends as a result.
> 
> What many seemingly fail to understand is that there is not a right or wrong approach so long as a person understands the limitations of their personal setup. More significantly, I wish that many would stop drawing the dividing lines and saying you can only be on one side or the other. I never accepted another man’s limitations as my own. I stopped posting as much because people don’t want to think for themselves anymore they just want to fall in line with the trends. Be true to yourself gentleman.


https://thumbs.gfycat.com/BigUnrulyDotterel-size_restricted.gif

https://media1.tenor.com/images/d4ab5d7e1d2ccd22f704673b14dff48f/tenor.gif


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## jaximus (Feb 23, 2015)

TimmyZ7 said:


> I’ve said many times over that confidence in one’s setup is key. Knowing your equipment because you’ve taken the time to make it an extension of your body when in hand is what produces reoccurring results. I actually set my bows and arrows up around the types of heads I shoot and animals that I pursue. I’m a big mechanical broadhead shooter as many know. What many may not know is that Henro and I, as well as the rest of Team Overkill, have different objectives almost entirely for our setups. Nonetheless, we respect the ambition that each other has for pursuing maximum efficiency from our particular setups. Onepin and I are just as enthusiastic over Sethro and Henro’s setups as our own. Bambikiller builds setups for both schools of thought. Ironically we all admire one another’s enthusiasm and have become great friends as a result.
> 
> What many seemingly fail to understand is that there is not a right or wrong approach so long as a person understands the limitations of their personal setup. More significantly, I wish that many would stop drawing the dividing lines and saying you can only be on one side or the other. I never accepted another man’s limitations as my own. I stopped posting as much because people don’t want to think for themselves anymore they just want to fall in line with the trends. Be true to yourself gentleman.


"beware the old man with one gun"

im with you, i respect guys that have refined and perfected a setup for their own personal objectives


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## plecavalier (Jan 10, 2008)

2ndwindfarm said:


> kinetic energy kills not weight. Some bow get more ke with lighter arrow. Mine does beat with 400g arrow and get 85ke. Which will kill anything. Depends on the bow. Most people shot over not under
> 
> sent from my sm-j337a using tapatalk


smh...


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## plecavalier (Jan 10, 2008)

Gruder said:


> Quote - Enough talking about this. Who wants to do a deer shoulder penetration test???
> Lol, not that you care but I like you already.
> The rest, understood. :cheers:


A year ago I proposed a penetration test. We worked out all the details. *Not a single post*.

The fact is most of the people posting negative stuff about heavy arrows are just trolling to get a reaction out of guys that take it seriously. That's what the internet has become. Forums like this that had enormous potential to be a resource for people seeking information and people with knowledge to have an outlet to teach are a riddled with trolls looking for gratification.


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## jaximus (Feb 23, 2015)

plecavalier said:


> A year ago I proposed a penetration test. We worked out all the details. *Not a single post*.
> 
> The fact is most of the people posting negative stuff about heavy arrows are just trolling to get a reaction out of guys that take it seriously. That's what the internet has become. Forums like this that had enormous potential to be a resource for people seeking information and people with knowledge to have an outlet to teach are a riddled with trolls looking for gratification.


maybe its just me, but i feel this place is still a great resource. sure, you have to sift through some silly nonsense, but you cant just blame the trolls. reaction to the 'trolls' keeps them coming back, and theres plenty of that going on... ignore them and move on. maybe you just notice the trolls more now


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## 2ndwindfarm (Mar 1, 2015)

SMH!! YEA whatever practice and hit target. SHOT DEER UNDER 20 yard. practice at 40-50-60. And dont smell like a scented candle. Wow!! 

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## rmscustom (Mar 7, 2011)

I like to keep a balance! Light enough to take unethically long shots and maybe enough weight to bust some bone on unethical angles. Works great


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## FreeMike (Jan 31, 2018)

650 is insane!

I shoot 625 for everything. One arrow weight. One broadhead (VPA unvented triple). Two bows, one arrow.


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## BIP (Apr 30, 2013)

I use 4 ozs of Comp B for fishing, so 900 gr arrows naturally seem realistic for hunting since explosive Rambo heads aren’t legal.....


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## 2ndwindfarm (Mar 1, 2015)

The arrow I shoot had best penetration and production the most KE. Could have been just coincidental 


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## nightvision (Aug 30, 2011)

2ndwindfarm said:


> The arrow I shoot had best penetration and production the most KE. Could have been just coincidental
> 
> 
> Sent from my SM-J337A using Tapatalk


Your sentences do not make sense. Proofreading is highly suggested.

While I do not shoot heavy arrows it’s a fact that they penetrate better. Trying to debate that is foolish and shows ignorance. Now, arguing about whether it’s needed or not is opinion and it’s obvious you do not think that it is. As I said before, I don’t care what you or anyone else here shoots but please educate yourself a little before posting absolute nonsense.


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## racerdave (Sep 3, 2009)

Pretty polarizing topic, huh? I think i’m going to go 465 or 500-ish.


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## Fortyneck (Oct 8, 2010)

TimmyZ7 said:


> I’ve said many times over that confidence in one’s setup is key. Knowing your equipment because you’ve taken the time to make it an extension of your body when in hand is what produces reoccurring results. I actually set my bows and arrows up around the types of heads I shoot and animals that I pursue. I’m a big mechanical broadhead shooter as many know. What many may not know is that Henro and I, as well as the rest of Team Overkill, have different objectives almost entirely for our setups. Nonetheless, we respect the ambition that each other has for pursuing maximum efficiency from our particular setups. Onepin and I are just as enthusiastic over Sethro and Henro’s setups as our own. Bambikiller builds setups for both schools of thought. Ironically we all admire one another’s enthusiasm and have become great friends as a result.
> 
> What many seemingly fail to understand is that there is not a right or wrong approach so long as a person understands the limitations of their personal setup. More significantly, I wish that many would stop drawing the dividing lines and saying you can only be on one side or the other. I never accepted another man’s limitations as my own. I stopped posting as much because people don’t want to think for themselves anymore they just want to fall in line with the trends. Be true to yourself gentleman.


Well said TimmyZ7. :thumbs_up:thumbs_up

Hope you've been well.

Love the signature! :icon_salut:


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## 2ndwindfarm (Mar 1, 2015)

I shoot carbon reds with100g swackers. And nockternals. Think its 425g. I've lost 1 deer in 20 year. I go to a shop paper tune and chrono. What shoots best I use. then practice. I spine many deer. There is no pass through just expensive ar$38 per arrow 

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## copterdoc (Oct 9, 2005)

3D Pinwheeler said:


> Another cartoon Doc
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZObfMPAhFLw


On both of these bucks, my arrow went through nothing but lungs, and didn't penetrate the diaphragm. The shot angles were similar (exiting the bottom 1/3rd of the rib cage), and they both dropped dead within 20 yards of where they were standing when hit.


















This one, was this year. 

The arrow hit where you see the hair standing up, and exited a couple of ribs forward.
The hit actually _*was*_ way too far back, and the arrow *did* go through the diaphragm. It made a real mess, (stomach contents) on the inside. 
But I *still* got both lungs, and he was dead less than 50 yards from where I shot him.










These are the last three bucks I've killed, all pass-through hits, with mechanical heads, and less than 450 grain total weight arrows.


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## plecavalier (Jan 10, 2008)

2ndwindfarm said:


> I shoot carbon reds with100g swackers. And nockternals. Think its 425g. I've lost 1 deer in 20 year. I go to a shop paper tune and chrono. What shoots best I use. then practice. I spine many deer. There is no pass through just expensive ar$38 per arrow
> 
> Sent from my SM-J337A using Tapatalk


What a troll.


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## Fortyneck (Oct 8, 2010)

rmscustom said:


> I like to keep a balance! Light enough to take unethically long shots and maybe enough weight to bust some bone on unethical angles. Works great


Nicely played sir.


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## 2ndwindfarm (Mar 1, 2015)

You only have to chance blood trails cause your not good enough to hit where u aim. not trolling just fact. Try hunting new England 30+ ft up where the deer aren't caged in eating a pile of corn. Use what shoots best out of your bow!! 

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## plecavalier (Jan 10, 2008)

2ndwindfarm said:


> You only have to chance blood trails cause your not good enough to hit where u aim. not trolling just fact. Try hunting new England 30+ ft up where the deer aren't caged in eating a pile of corn. Use what shoots best out of your bow!!
> 
> Sent from my SM-J337A using Tapatalk


Fact? Haha. Have a good night buddy.


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## KS Bow Hunter (Nov 22, 2013)

Really is an optimization process...what arrow setup works best for you and your hunting methods? Once you get over a certain weight and the bow quiets down, and efficiency is optimized, then you are just adding weight without increasing benefits...at 425-435 grains and 291 ft. sec. I am pushing KE of over 80 and MO of .51ish. With a good broadhead and shot angle, I'm getting a complete pass through anywhere in my hunting distance, out to 35-40 yards on a whitetail and that same setup is fine for elk or moose. At 650 grains, I could do the same, but I would have to seriously adjust for the arc from the heavier arrow at any distance. There is some value to launching a heavier arrow if it is increasing efficiency transfer...

More importantly, there is no "right" answer...we all get comfortable with what we play with and gradually adapt to...I have the same setup for all game and all bows...and it works great for me, and since I am 70# 30" I get great speed and KE+MO from all my bows and that single arrow setup...

Keep an open mind, it is the only way you learn anything new...


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## 3D Pinwheeler (Jan 29, 2007)

copterdoc said:


> On both of these bucks, my arrow went through nothing but lungs, and didn't penetrate the diaphragm. The shot angles were similar (exiting the bottom 1/3rd of the rib cage), and they both dropped dead within 20 yards of where they were standing when hit.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


congrats....i kill deer also. Gut shots suck makes the meat taste bad. Thats why I aim for the crease not mid body.


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## copterdoc (Oct 9, 2005)

3D Pinwheeler said:


> congrats....i kill deer also. Gut shots suck makes the meat taste bad. Thats why I aim for the crease not mid body.


If you aim for the crease, you will hit a lot of deer that you will not recover.
There is just not enough room for error.

And I'm not even talking about the potential for poor penetration. (Although it does simply make a lot of sense to stay away from the "armored" sections of the vitals.)
The vitals are the smallest, at the front of the chest cavity. 

The chest cavity is shaped like a cone.
It is both shorter in height, and narrower in width, the farther forward that you aim.


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

BIP said:


> I use 4 ozs of Comp B for fishing, so 900 gr arrows naturally seem realistic for hunting since explosive Rambo heads aren’t legal.....


What if they were though?

https://media1.tenor.com/images/f385d6c7f5a9c5ac1d93a77991c27777/tenor.gif


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## plecavalier (Jan 10, 2008)

henro said:


> What if they were though?
> 
> https://media1.tenor.com/images/f385d6c7f5a9c5ac1d93a77991c27777/tenor.gif
> 
> ...


Shoot and BBQ at the same time. That's efficient!


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## roosiebull (Oct 3, 2010)

FreeMike said:


> 650 is insane!
> 
> I shoot 625 for everything. One arrow weight. One broadhead (VPA unvented triple). Two bows, one arrow.


haha, I agree, 625 is a good weight, 650 is cray-cray... I have been trying to settle into an arrow the past couple weeks with my recurve, and as of now, I weighed an arrow today @ 636gr, which is a little heavier than I was going for, but it's shooting really well, so i'm gonna stick with it. also undecided on heads... will be 200gr of some flavor, and VPA 3 blades will be one of the heads I will buy and try, along with bear-paw jagers, and cutthroats... once I have them all in hand, compare edge retention and weather resistance, I will make a decision. the end goal is to get something dialed in that I like....and stick with it

I didn't know I was capable of shooting a bareshaft that well at 30yds:wink: but I repeat it a bunch of times, so i'm running with it


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## 3D Pinwheeler (Jan 29, 2007)

copterdoc said:


> If you aim for the crease, you will hit a lot of deer that you will not recover.
> There is just not enough room for error.
> 
> And I'm not even talking about the potential for poor penetration. (Although it does simply make a lot of sense to stay away from the "armored" sections of the vitals.)
> ...


I've been killing deer since 88. Avg 3 a year. I'll be ok. 

I also used to process deer. I know all about deer anatomy. 
Yes the cavity narrows but thats on the front of the leg. 5" from where I'm aiming. Most of the deer I shoot I see them go down. 
When I gut them its usually double lung and top back portion of heart.


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## 1simplemann (Nov 22, 2018)

plecavalier said:


> A year ago I proposed a penetration test. We worked out all the details. *Not a single post*.
> 
> The fact is most of the people posting negative stuff about heavy arrows are just trolling to get a reaction out of guys that take it seriously. That's what the internet has become. Forums like this that had enormous potential to be a resource for people seeking information and people with knowledge to have an outlet to teach are a riddled with trolls looking for gratification.


What are you proposing? I have some pig shoulders in the back of the truck right now waiting for this polar vortex to pass and spring to arrive so I can test. I plan on shooting them with the variety of BH's in my junk box plus my current set up. My current set up is 70lb Experience and 30" Kinetic 200's, GT external collar and a 125 gr Helix. The arrow comes in about 650 gr. With that set up I completely destroyed a mature 150" WT buck's shoulder ball joint and had an exit hole. He went 40 yds. My taxi has skinned alot of deer and thought I shot him with a rifle! I have some 200 gr Helix's coming. I'm going to shoot those as well. If they perform, then that may be my new head nest year. Approximately 725 gn! It's a lot of wight but I hunt elk as well so I want 1 arrow for both species.


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## Rg176bnc (Dec 13, 2004)

I thought for sure this thread would be full of busted bone pics.


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## Fortyneck (Oct 8, 2010)

henro said:


> What if they were though?
> 
> https://media1.tenor.com/images/f385d6c7f5a9c5ac1d93a77991c27777/tenor.gif
> 
> ...


I think that guy is a little underspined :teeth:

He should look into your arrow build thread!


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## copterdoc (Oct 9, 2005)

3D Pinwheeler said:


> ....Yes the cavity narrows but thats on the front of the leg. 5" from where I'm aiming.....


 The entire chest cavity is shaped like a cone.

Look at the picture.


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## plecavalier (Jan 10, 2008)

1simplemann said:


> What are you proposing? I have some pig shoulders in the back of the truck right now waiting for this polar vortex to pass and spring to arrive so I can test. I plan on shooting them with the variety of BH's in my junk box plus my current set up. My current set up is 70lb Experience and 30" Kinetic 200's, GT external collar and a 125 gr Helix. The arrow comes in about 650 gr. With that set up I completely destroyed a mature 150" WT buck's shoulder ball joint and had an exit hole. He went 40 yds. My taxi has skinned alot of deer and thought I shot him with a rifle! I have some 200 gr Helix's coming. I'm going to shoot those as well. If they perform, then that may be my new head nest year. Approximately 725 gn! It's a lot of wight but I hunt elk as well so I want 1 arrow for both species.


Sandbox test. To fully test penetration potential of a system you need consistent medium. This will not literally tell us how it would do on a live animal only a test on live animal will do that. But to compare one arrow system to the next sand is the best way. Especially your build to my built. Build a sandbox at shoulder height with a cardboard trap on the front. Fill it with play sand and shoot each design at least 6 times and take an average. Very simple and imo very effective. I would suggest field points otherwise it gets complicated quick.


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## 3D Pinwheeler (Jan 29, 2007)

copterdoc said:


> The entire chest cavity is shaped like a cone.
> 
> Look at the picture.


Yes....i know.
If you shoot it at the crease behind the front leg you will be center lung.
You are aware the lungs do not fill the entire chest cavity right?
The last 3 ribs at the back is where they end on top and angle towards the front leg as you go down. 
Maybe instead of looking at an empty cavity, google pictures of where the vitals are in the cavity.


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## H80Hunter (Jan 23, 2016)

KS Bow Hunter said:


> At 650 grains, I could do the same, but I would have to seriously adjust for the arc from the heavier arrow at any distance.


You should seriously go on to south shore or Lancaster and order up 1-2 arrows that come out at this weight. Sight in for them at 40 yards and shoot your light one. The difference is WAY smaller than you think.

You’re right that it doesn’t make much difference and both approaches are defensible, but most people who hate the bad trajectory of heavy arrows have never shot them or they’d know that inside of 40 yards the difference is minor.


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## copterdoc (Oct 9, 2005)

3D Pinwheeler said:


> .....You are aware the lungs do not fill the entire chest cavity right?


When the diaphragm and chest cavity are intact, the lungs do fill the entire chest cavity.
When you open the chest cavity, the lungs empty of air, and collapse.

When the deer is alive, its lungs are always touching the diaphragm.


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## 3D Pinwheeler (Jan 29, 2007)

Bring the front leg back to its natural position.
Crease is center of lungs


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## copterdoc (Oct 9, 2005)

Skip ahead to 31:00 to see how big the lungs are when the deer is alive and breathing.


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## 1simplemann (Nov 22, 2018)

plecavalier said:


> Sandbox test. To fully test penetration potential of a system you need consistent medium. This will not literally tell us how it would do on a live animal only a test on live animal will do that. But to compare one arrow system to the next sand is the best way. Especially your build to my built. Build a sandbox at shoulder height with a cardboard trap on the front. Fill it with play sand and shoot each design at least 6 times and take an average. Very simple and imo very effective. I would suggest field points otherwise it gets complicated quick.


I can see some problems with that test. Since this is a bowhunting site, some people will cry that it's not valid because there is no BH involved. Truthfully, I want to shoot some real bone myself and see what happens. That's why IMO Ashby's study is valid. Real testing on live critters! We all know how some people find ways to discredit his study because they just can't bring themselves to see the light. I've been gone awhile but since I've came back I found Ranch Fairy's video's very informative and a confirmation that I was on the right track. His testing ground on hogs w/ video footage is probably the best test that I know of.


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## plecavalier (Jan 10, 2008)

1simplemann said:


> I can see some problems with that test. Since this is a bowhunting site, some people will cry that it's not valid because there is no BH involved. Truthfully, I want to shoot some real bone myself and see what happens. That's why IMO Ashby's study is valid. Real testing on live critters! We all know how some people find ways to discredit his study because they just can't bring themselves to see the light. I've been gone awhile but since I've came back I found Ranch Fairy's video's very informative and a confirmation that I was on the right track. His testing ground on hogs w/ video footage is probably the best test that I know of.


That's why I specified it is not an animal test. It is purely a penetration potential test to compare one arrow build to the next.

now if you want to test integrity, which is what bone is, a dried up frozen bone won't be realistic in comparison to one in a live animal. And that's the problem with those types of tests. They will never be comparable to the live animal. Not in consistency of the actual bone and not in how the bone is supported by the standing animal with flesh and fluids surrounding it. So to me, although it is fun, the exercise itself is futile if you're trying to demonstrate penetration potential of an arrow on an animal. FWIW integrity IMO is better tested on hard material.

The sand is the single best medium I've found to measure. Ballistic gel works too but there's a component of friction and other influencing factors. Play sand doesn't have that. It is loose yet consistently uniform. But again, this has nothing to do with animals. It is to compare one arrow build (or type of build ie light vs heavy) to another.


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## 3D Pinwheeler (Jan 29, 2007)

Good video Doc.
As he says aiming point is top back edge of heart. Which is in the crease. 5th rib back from front. Center of lungs.
If you go 3 or 4 inches up from the elbow its the crease where your video the fellow states is the center aiming point.


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## copterdoc (Oct 9, 2005)

3D Pinwheeler said:


> Good video Doc.
> As he says aiming point is top back edge of heart. Which is in the crease. 5th rib back from front. Center of lungs.
> If you go 3 or 4 inches up from the elbow its the crease where your video the fellow states is the center aiming point.


It's not my center aiming point. Not anymore.

There's just not enough room for error inside that triangle.
And hitting the heart gets you absolutely nothing that you don't get from a double lung.


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## copterdoc (Oct 9, 2005)

3D Pinwheeler said:


> ....As he says aiming point is top back edge of heart. Which is in the crease. 5th rib back from front. Center of lungs.


 If you watch the video all the way through, you'll see that the top back edge of the heart is farther back than you think.

He shows you where to aim, and I agree with what he says.


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## 3D Pinwheeler (Jan 29, 2007)

copterdoc said:


> If you watch the video all the way through, you'll see that the top back edge of the heart is farther back than you think.
> 
> He shows you where to aim, and I agree with what he says.


I did. Count the ribs....5th rib from the front what he shows...thats the edge of the crease. I agree also with it also. 
Its middle of the lungs not middle of the chest


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## copterdoc (Oct 9, 2005)

3D Pinwheeler said:


> I did. Count the ribs....5th rib from the front what he shows...thats the edge of the crease.....


Sigh.......

You better count again. And then go to 38:15 in the video.


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## BigFish7 (Oct 19, 2017)

copterdoc said:


> 3D Pinwheeler said:
> 
> 
> > Good video Doc.
> ...


Not being a jerk here, but I think the recurring argument on the heavy guys’ side has been that a heavier arrow provides significantly more insurance for penetration on a shot that doesn’t end up being perfect. 

So with a heavier arrow, like the 650 grains Ashby studied and Concluded to be the weight at which penetration through bone increases, you wouldn’t have to worry about “not enough room for error.” Respectfully.


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## BigFish7 (Oct 19, 2017)

plecavalier said:


> 1simplemann said:
> 
> 
> > I can see some problems with that test. Since this is a bowhunting site, some people will cry that it's not valid because there is no BH involved. Truthfully, I want to shoot some real bone myself and see what happens. That's why IMO Ashby's study is valid. Real testing on live critters! We all know how some people find ways to discredit his study because they just can't bring themselves to see the light. I've been gone awhile but since I've came back I found Ranch Fairy's video's very informative and a confirmation that I was on the right track. His testing ground on hogs w/ video footage is probably the best test that I know of.
> ...


If this is a play date, I’m down. Come down here to Florida, I’ve got the sand supply on lock. 

Seriously, I would very much enjoy participating in this endeavor, and I have a bunch of arrows in different thicknesses, weights, foc %’s, all the way up to about 900 grains currently. Let’s shoot some sand!


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## 3D Pinwheeler (Jan 29, 2007)

copterdoc said:


> Sigh.......
> 
> You better count again. And then go to 38:15 in the video.


I'm good. I shoot deer when i gut them I know where I was. Thanks though.
If your a little low u hit stomach.
If Im low I hit heart and both lungs. Thanks for the consultation.
All the hunters I've followed through the years say shoot at the crease behind the shoulder. What do we know. Even the vid you sent...the guy shows the same spot. When he shows that deer...just like the last photo I posted a deers leg slides forward on the rib cage. Its not it that position when standing on its feet unless it takes a step.


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## hoyt fo life555 (Jan 31, 2005)

I use sand filled jugs to test, and find its about the best thing I’ve used to date. With broad heads also. Live animals are the funnest, but it’s still never the “ exact same shot”. Pig may be slightly different position, react totally differently with arrow impact ( or before impact) mud caked, sow vs boar, bones are impacted differently. Some dead centered some slightly off center so head glances off at varying degrees, different bone densities, how the blades are positioned on impact as well as the full length of time it’s passing through has a big effect, health of animal could have an affect on this as well. I find sand a good indicator of what its capable of, especially when comparing shafts and heads to one another. On an animal you my shoot a not so great a combo, and blow right through. Shoot a great combo, but angle, impact what ever is not going to be exactly the same, and it may look as though it’s not so good. You are never gong to shoot the exact same shot on any animal. Sand is far quicker to help make a good assessment, imo.


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

So... why won’t any of you do a fresh deer shoulder test?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## plecavalier (Jan 10, 2008)

BigFish7 said:


> If this is a play date, I’m down. Come down here to Florida, I’ve got the sand supply on lock.
> 
> Seriously, I would very much enjoy participating in this endeavor, and I have a bunch of arrows in different thicknesses, weights, foc %’s, all the way up to about 900 grains currently. Let’s shoot some sand!


Good. As soon as our sand thaws I'm IN.


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## BigFish7 (Oct 19, 2017)

henro said:


> So... why won’t any of you do a fresh deer shoulder test?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I live on a peninsula known as St Petersburg with 2.3 million other people, deer are kind of hard to come by for me... I could get a Pork Picnic (whole shoulder) from Publix though, would that work?


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## 1simplemann (Nov 22, 2018)

henro said:


> So... why won’t any of you do a fresh deer shoulder test?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Cuz it ain't deer season! LOL


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## roosiebull (Oct 3, 2010)

plecavalier said:


> What a troll.


You spelled tool wrong :wink:


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## 17ghk (Nov 11, 2009)

bow hunting for 30 yrs. I'll go will a standard carbon 400gr - 425gr arrow every time. i don't care for fooling around with pins or range finders. never needed anything else.


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## KS Bow Hunter (Nov 22, 2013)

I think it is more than you think...like 10+ inches difference at 40 yard...no?


H80Hunter said:


> You should seriously go on to south shore or Lancaster and order up 1-2 arrows that come out at this weight. Sight in for them at 40 yards and shoot your light one. The difference is WAY smaller than you think.
> 
> You’re right that it doesn’t make much difference and both approaches are defensible, but most people who hate the bad trajectory of heavy arrows have never shot them or they’d know that inside of 40 yards the difference is minor.


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## H80Hunter (Jan 23, 2016)

https://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=5420231



KS Bow Hunter said:


> I think it is more than you think...like 10+ inches difference at 40 yard...no?


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## KS Bow Hunter (Nov 22, 2013)

Thanks...looks about right...I think 435 to 650 is about 10"+ at 40 yards...not trivial but also not out of the question...I may try some heavier higher FOC setups if I get a new bow...for now, what I have isn't an issue...



H80Hunter said:


> https://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=5420231


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## H80Hunter (Jan 23, 2016)

https://youtu.be/RjZH5Nx38wc

This is also worth watching.


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## turkeyhunter60 (Apr 19, 2010)

I shoot a full length xx75 2317s close to 650 grain arrow, out of my Oneida Screaming Eagle.. Never had any penetration problems and killed everything it hit.. So what if i do....I don't shoot real light arrows out of any of my Bows...


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

BigFish7 said:


> I live on a peninsula known as St Petersburg with 2.3 million other people, deer are kind of hard to come by for me... I could get a Pork Picnic (whole shoulder) from Publix though, would that work?


No it needs to be a freshly deceased real deer shoulder, like within hours is best. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## nightvision (Aug 30, 2011)

KS Bow Hunter said:


> Thanks...looks about right...I think 435 to 650 is about 10"+ at 40 yards...not trivial but also not out of the question...I may try some heavier higher FOC setups if I get a new bow...for now, what I have isn't an issue...


That drop could be significantly more or less depending on draw length and draw weight.

Padgett 
If we all pitch in arrows, do you have time to shoot them out of your Hooter shooter at a “normal” persons specs? Say, 65 lbs and 28.5” draw length.


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## leoncrandall74 (Apr 9, 2017)

henro said:


> No it needs to be a freshly deceased real deer shoulder, like within hours is best.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Ok I gotta hear this..why? Why not two pig shoulders?
In my opinion for accuracy and consistency purposes of the test sand would be a much better choice. Different deer, different shoulders, angles or point of impact could all effect the outcome of the test. Just the way I see it

Sent from my SM-G532M using Tapatalk


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## jaximus (Feb 23, 2015)

leoncrandall74 said:


> Ok I gotta hear this..why? Why not two pig shoulders?
> In my opinion for accuracy and consistency purposes of the test sand would be a much better choice. Different deer, different shoulders, angles or point of impact could all effect the outcome of the test. Just the way I see it
> 
> Sent from my SM-G532M using Tapatalk


sand favors the heaviest arrow. 

your reasons for saying a real deer shoulder are not a good 'fair' test is exactly why different setups perform well on deer. lighter setups, that some claim should never accomplish certain things, in the real world on real animals accomplish those feats. heavier setups that some claim should blow through everyhing are 'mysteriously' stopped. sand would show that light is bad and heavy is good, but it doesnt account for animals having varying densities. it simply measures a linear relationship to what you can calculate.


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## BigFish7 (Oct 19, 2017)

Freshly dead tissue so ill has some mild electrical impulses going through it, so when it gets cut it is under tension/ peels back and opens up a wound channel that is held open for milliseconds while the arrow penetrates, then snaps shut to begin healing. The momentary muscular contractions creates less friction on the shaft. 

Also, the living tissue inside the bone is spongy and impedes penetration, as the bones don’t just shatter and split apart, they do their best to stay intact and prevent blood loss.


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## Gruder (Feb 19, 2016)

Here's one story that would probably never happen again but never the less it did but to be fair there wer far more times when I could have used more penetration.
Me and my bro were at a assigned hunt area we only got three weekends to hunt so when we got any kind of opportunity we would try to make good. So one evening running out of time and maybe 20 mins before too dark to shot, a doe appears straight ahead thru the woods and I had a clear shot, no way it was gonna bust me but there was brush and trees and she was moving slowly and I had to act fast before my shot opportunity disappeared. The doe was broadside 40 yrds, BUT when in a hurry I took out my crappy range finder to range her I couldn't see the numbers clearly, black digital and light was fading. Waisting precious seconds I pressed the button a few times I thought it said 30. So I quickly set my pin on her, mid body front lung area and let her go. She acted like a bee stung her or something but just walked slowly for 10 yrds, wobbled and tipped over and I could see her white belly from my stand. I was so relieved and full of thanks, texted my bro who was only a couple hundred yrds away and said "big doe down, big doe down". Inside joke because many yrs ago whenever our cousin shot a doe he would text that same thing even though most times it was a fawn.
Anywho, because I shot for 30 but deer was at 40, my arrow with magnus head hit very low but LUCKLY, I admitt, right thru the heart. That's why she bled out so quickly and tipped over.
So arrow was 330 bloodline no extra weight so probably right around 400. I ranged distance from tree next day and that's when I found out it was 40. I'm 100% sure if I had a 600 gr. Arrow I would have missed.
Rare example I know but lighter, flatter worked this time.


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## leoncrandall74 (Apr 9, 2017)

jaximus said:


> sand favors the heaviest arrow.
> 
> your reasons for saying a real deer shoulder are not a good 'fair' test is exactly why different setups perform well on deer. lighter setups, that some claim should never accomplish certain things, in the real world on real animals accomplish those feats. heavier setups that some claim should blow through everyhing are 'mysteriously' stopped. sand would show that light is bad and heavy is good, but it doesnt account for animals having varying densities. it simply measures a linear relationship to what you can calculate.


I would expect sand to favor a heaviest arrow. well... cuz the heavier arrow will penetrate better. I'm not sayin a light arrow can't blow through a shoulder but I certainly won't say it'll penetrate better. Like you said varying densities and other factors can and will effect the outcome. It's all give and take, I started using heavy arrows, I tried light and found my happy middle ground with a 450-500gr arrow. I personally don't see where either extreme is the best. 

Sent from my SM-G532M using Tapatalk


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## plecavalier (Jan 10, 2008)

jaximus said:


> sand favors the heaviest arrow.
> 
> your reasons for saying a real deer shoulder are not a good 'fair' test is exactly why different setups perform well on deer. lighter setups, that some claim should never accomplish certain things, in the real world on real animals accomplish those feats. heavier setups that some claim should blow through everyhing are 'mysteriously' stopped. sand would show that light is bad and heavy is good, but it doesnt account for animals having varying densities. it simply measures a linear relationship to what you can calculate.


The Sand test is more scientific. It is a penetration test to compare arrows. Nothing to relate directly to animals. Not sure how many times I have to explain this. Only live animals will tell you potential on live animals.


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## jaximus (Feb 23, 2015)

leoncrandall74 said:


> I would expect sand to favor a heaviest arrow. well... cuz the heavier arrow will penetrate better. I'm not sayin a light arrow can't blow through a shoulder but I certainly won't say it'll penetrate better. Like you said varying densities and other factors can and will effect the outcome. It's all give and take, I started using heavy arrows, I tried light and found my happy middle ground with a 450-500gr arrow. I personally don't see where either extreme is the best.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G532M using Tapatalk


exactly, i found 475gr to be my balanced setup, which fits in your middle ground also. heavier arrows will out penetrate, lighter will have a better trajectory, but the tradeoffs at either end are minimized in the middle.


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## leoncrandall74 (Apr 9, 2017)

jaximus said:


> exactly, i found 475gr to be my balanced setup, which fits in your middle ground also. heavier arrows will out penetrate, lighter will have a better trajectory, but the tradeoffs at either end are minimized in the middle.


Yep that's my thoughts exactly! My current arrow is 480gr which is my happy medium. Just gives me what I'm looking for with my setup. I don't feel either extreme is the best choice. We each as individuals must decide what we want , it's all give and take. Find what works for you and roll with it

Sent from my SM-G532M using Tapatalk


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## azscorpion (Feb 12, 2010)

I have never met a serious hunter here in the West that shoots anything near 650......and guess what? We all kill BIG ELK, ram, Mule deer, Moose, Bear, caribou, etc.

You all have fun with that 650 plus.....then break out the 50 cal for your 30 yard whitetail shot during gun season.....right?


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## Michshooter (Feb 21, 2016)

This thing really isn’t that hard.....

A light arrow won’t penetrate as well you may not get what you need if all factors don’t go how you planned.

A heavy arrow will drop faster. If you are off on yardage even just 2-3 yards (yes that deer may even move after you use that fool proof range finder that some have said eliminates that issue) you may miss vitals if other factors don’t go as planned as well.

I’ve gone heavy and light over the last number of years, in fact back and forth a few times. Personally I’m going on the lighter side now at 420. Out to 30 I don’t have to worry about exact yardage. That is the factor I chose to eliminate. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## roosiebull (Oct 3, 2010)

azscorpion said:


> I have never met a serious hunter here in the West that shoots anything near 650......and guess what? We all kill BIG ELK, ram, Mule deer, Moose, Bear, caribou, etc.
> 
> You all have fun with that 650 plus.....then break out the 50 cal for your 30 yard whitetail shot during gun season.....right?


nothing wrong with it not being your thing...… but there is some irony here before you finish telling us how awesome you are. I have noticed you, more than any person on this site, bragging about shooting long distances.... because you "hunt in the west" 

I do too, and know a lot of killers, and none need to shoot long distances to fill tags..... and for sure, none would feel obligated to brag about being unable to get closer, and lots of have the ability.... right?:wink:


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## KS Bow Hunter (Nov 22, 2013)

Thanks...good video. So I think that the difference for me then at 435 vs. 650 at 70#/30" may just be 5-6 inches at 40 yards...I'll have to play around with it...



H80Hunter said:


> https://youtu.be/RjZH5Nx38wc
> 
> This is also worth watching.


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## BDHUNTR (May 24, 2003)

Gruder said:


> Here's one story that would probably never happen again but never the less it did but to be fair there wer far more times when I could have used more penetration.
> Me and my bro were at a assigned hunt area we only got three weekends to hunt so when we got any kind of opportunity we would try to make good. So one evening running out of time and maybe 20 mins before too dark to shot, a doe appears straight ahead thru the woods and I had a clear shot, no way it was gonna bust me but there was brush and trees and she was moving slowly and I had to act fast before my shot opportunity disappeared. The doe was broadside 40 yrds, BUT when in a hurry I took out my crappy range finder to range her I couldn't see the numbers clearly, black digital and light was fading. Waisting precious seconds I pressed the button a few times I thought it said 30. So I quickly set my pin on her, mid body front lung area and let her go. She acted like a bee stung her or something but just walked slowly for 10 yrds, wobbled and tipped over and I could see her white belly from my stand. I was so relieved and full of thanks, texted my bro who was only a couple hundred yrds away and said "big doe down, big doe down". Inside joke because many yrs ago whenever our cousin shot a doe he would text that same thing even though most times it was a fawn.
> Anywho, because I shot for 30 but deer was at 40, my arrow with magnus head hit very low but LUCKLY, I admitt, right thru the heart. That's why she bled out so quickly and tipped over.
> So arrow was 330 bloodline no extra weight so probably right around 400. I ranged distance from tree next day and that's when I found out it was 40. I'm 100% sure if I had a 600 gr. Arrow I would have missed.
> Rare example I know but lighter, flatter worked this time.


I had a seven-pointer trot up to my bleat-n-heat can call. He was fully rutted up and lookin' for love, but I stopped him at 17 yards. I aimed slightly quartering-away and just as I was getting ready to trigger the release he jerked to the left. The arrow slammed back way farther back then intended. Went through the paunch into the chest, hit the off-lung and went part-way through his left front leg. Must have also clipped a big blood vessel as he only went 50 yards and dropped. That was a 475 grain arrow. Had I been shooting a 370-400 grain arrow I don't know if my penetration would have been as good, especially after hitting that front leg. 

The thing is, all of us who shoot heavy arrows, or light arrows, have a story or two to tell that relates to our opinions. My best advice is for everyone to shoot with what makes them happy, and especially, something they have confidence in shooting. If that's a fast arrow at 350-400 grains, something midweight at 400-500 grains or something heavy, such as the 650 grain arrow that started this thread, shoot it if you like it and can hit what you shoot. 

It's when you can't that you start to have real problems.


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## hunterhewi (Jun 12, 2010)

Exactly what most people who shoot lightweight arrows will never see, because they knock the heavier arrow for trajectory when in reality at 30-40 yards that light arrow is shedding speed and energy much faster than that heavy arrow. The bow becomes more efficient and will usually IBO at a faster speed than advertised as well, with the heavy arrow. Everyone thinks that 100-200 grains different will drastically change POI. It dont change nearly as much as one would think.


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## 1simplemann (Nov 22, 2018)

azscorpion said:


> I have never met a serious hunter here in the West that shoots anything near 650......and guess what? We all kill BIG ELK, ram, Mule deer, Moose, Bear, caribou, etc.
> 
> You all have fun with that 650 plus.....then break out the 50 cal for your 30 yard whitetail shot during gun season.....right?


I live and hunt out west. Just because we live out west doesn't mean we have to shoot them far. 90% of my bow kills are 20 yds and under. Elk are the main reason I shoot a heavy arrow. If you have ever shoulder bladed a bull or seen someone do it then you would understand. I'm not saying I can break a bull's shoulder with my setup but at least I have a running chance if a mistake happens. AND they do happen!


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## cooperjd (Aug 18, 2009)

azscorpion said:


> I have never met a serious hunter here in the West that shoots anything near 650......and guess what? We all kill BIG ELK, ram, Mule deer, Moose, Bear, caribou, etc.
> 
> You all have fun with that 650 plus.....then break out the 50 cal for your 30 yard whitetail shot during gun season.....right?


I shoot 642gr arrows. Nice to meet you


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## Fortyneck (Oct 8, 2010)

Man, I decided to check out the trad section since I’ve been shooting LBs more that compounds last few years. The same nonsense it’s going on there about “you don’t need this, shoot that, Ashby’s wrong, Ashby’s right, physics don’t lie...”. It is dizzying.


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## Confusion (Mar 10, 2019)

Gruder said:


> Here's one story that would probably never happen again but never the less it did but to be fair there wer far more times when I could have used more penetration.
> Me and my bro were at a assigned hunt area we only got three weekends to hunt so when we got any kind of opportunity we would try to make good. So one evening running out of time and maybe 20 mins before too dark to shot, a doe appears straight ahead thru the woods and I had a clear shot, no way it was gonna bust me but there was brush and trees and she was moving slowly and I had to act fast before my shot opportunity disappeared. The doe was broadside 40 yrds, BUT when in a hurry I took out my crappy range finder to range her I couldn't see the numbers clearly, black digital and light was fading. Waisting precious seconds I pressed the button a few times I thought it said 30. So I quickly set my pin on her, mid body front lung area and let her go. She acted like a bee stung her or something but just walked slowly for 10 yrds, wobbled and tipped over and I could see her white belly from my stand. I was so relieved and full of thanks, texted my bro who was only a couple hundred yrds away and said "big doe down, big doe down". Inside joke because many yrs ago whenever our cousin shot a doe he would text that same thing even though most times it was a fawn.
> Anywho, because I shot for 30 but deer was at 40, my arrow with magnus head hit very low but LUCKLY, I admitt, right thru the heart. That's why she bled out so quickly and tipped over.
> So arrow was 330 bloodline no extra weight so probably right around 400. I ranged distance from tree next day and that's when I found out it was 40. I'm 100% sure if I had a 600 gr. Arrow I would have missed.
> Rare example I know but lighter, flatter worked this time.


And with those situations happening all the time, a flat trajectory can easily wind up saving you a long track. I had a slow borrowed bow and a shot I did not take. Thought it was 30. It was actually 19. I would have hit way too high (grass in the way). It would have been a bad way to go for the Elk and a long (maybe unsuccessful) track.

I'm going to stick with a ~450 grain arrow, but I'm buying something with a lot more speed.


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## 138104 (May 14, 2009)

I shoot a 400 grain arrow with 125 grain fixed-blade head. Speeds probably in the high 270's. I have always gotten pass thrus on whitetails out to 40 yds. I see no reason to go heavier.


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## copterdoc (Oct 9, 2005)

BigFish7 said:


> Not being a jerk here, but I think the recurring argument on the heavy guys’ side has been that a heavier arrow provides significantly more insurance for penetration on a shot that doesn’t end up being perfect.
> 
> So with a heavier arrow, like the 650 grains Ashby studied and Concluded to be the weight at which penetration through bone increases, you wouldn’t have to worry about “not enough room for error.” Respectfully.


 If you want to pop a balloon, you don't aim at the smallest end of it.
You aim at the middle of the balloon, so you have more room for error.

Regardless of the amount of penetration you get, you won't kill a deer by missing it entirely, hitting it in the brisket or hitting it in the shoulder roasts.

Respectfully.


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## jaximus (Feb 23, 2015)

Fortyneck said:


> Man, I decided to check out the trad section since I’ve been shooting LBs more that compounds last few years. The same nonsense it’s going on there about “you don’t need this, shoot that, Ashby’s wrong, Ashby’s right, physics don’t lie...”. It is dizzying.


i guess that sinks the "look at what the trad guys are doing, they have it figured out" argument...


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## plecavalier (Jan 10, 2008)

Confusion said:


> And with those situations happening all the time, a flat trajectory can easily wind up saving you a long track. I had a slow borrowed bow and a shot I did not take. Thought it was 30. It was actually 19. I would have hit way too high (grass in the way). It would have been a bad way to go for the Elk and a long (maybe unsuccessful) track.
> 
> I'm going to stick with a ~450 grain arrow, but I'm buying something with a lot more speed.


You made an 11 yard mistake. That's 33 feet off.


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## Fortyneck (Oct 8, 2010)

jaximus said:


> i guess that sinks the "look at what the trad guys are doing, they have it figured out" argument...


Actually, I saw some of the same anti-Ashby people posting on this thread over there. This was on a thread where the OP was asking about building an EFOC arrow (not about overall arrow weight like this thread). Then out come the Ashby haters to pizz in the OPs Cheerios... Sad really. At least this thread was intentionally inflammatory.


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## roosiebull (Oct 3, 2010)

Fortyneck said:


> Actually, I saw some of the same anti-Ashby people posting on this thread over there. This was on a thread where the OP was asking about building an EFOC arrow (not about overall arrow weight like this thread). Then out come the Ashby haters to pizz in the OPs Cheerios... Sad really. At least this thread was intentionally inflammatory.


one way of going about it is use some common sense on your arrow build depending on what you are planning to do with that arrow, then run with it, and if you do that, it will work fine within reason, and you may see some aspect that needs improving... then improve it...rinse, repeat...

there is NOTHING wrong with learning things through your own trial and error if you have a reasonable starting point. I think there is some awesome stuff in Ashby's findings, but there is some of it I would have to see to believe, which keeps me from "going all in" on the Ashby stuff. I think what he has shared has a ton of value, but I also think he went off the rails on some of it.... if it was all how he says, we would see more evidence of it.... I hear about people "blowing" through elk shoulders consistently enough that they try to do it (listen to some podcasts with grizzly stik on them) but we don't see the evidence, if it was happening, we would see it. I have had light arrows go through elk shoulders.... I don't think it's reliable no matter what you're shooting (within reason)

I have seen elk shoulders stop 30/06 and .308 bullets, which means you can't even reliably do it with a 30 cal high powered rifle.... but an arrow out of a 70lb bow can? I don't buy it.... maybe it can, but i'm not building an arrow for one part of an elk I try to avoid... makes no sense to me, especially since I don't think it matters if I did.

I certainly think there is something to FOC, it makes sense in every aspect, I think a high FOC arrow is a better mouse trap, and that is easier to build now than it ever has been, without having to spend too much more money on an arrow build. use some common sense, go hunting, and adjust as necessary.


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## Fortyneck (Oct 8, 2010)

roosiebull said:


> one way of going about it is use some common sense on your arrow build depending on what you are planning to do with that arrow, then run with it, and if you do that, it will work fine within reason, and you may see some aspect that needs improving... then improve it...rinse, repeat...
> 
> there is NOTHING wrong with learning things through your own trial and error if you have a reasonable starting point. I think there is some awesome stuff in Ashby's findings, but there is some of it I would have to see to believe, which keeps me from "going all in" on the Ashby stuff. I think what he has shared has a ton of value, but I also think he went off the rails on some of it.... if it was all how he says, we would see more evidence of it.... I hear about people "blowing" through elk shoulders consistently enough that they try to do it (listen to some podcasts with grizzly stik on them) but we don't see the evidence, if it was happening, we would see it. I have had light arrows go through elk shoulders.... I don't think it's reliable no matter what you're shooting (within reason)
> 
> ...


Sure, that all sounds very reasonable, and I agree with all of this post. I'm not an Ashby freak nor anti-Ashby. I'm in it for the exchange of information and experiences. I like to try different things and tune my own gear. Some people don't, and that's fine too.


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## roosiebull (Oct 3, 2010)

Fortyneck said:


> Sure, that all sounds very reasonable, and I agree with all of this post. I'm not an Ashby freak nor anti-Ashby. I'm in it for the exchange of information and experiences. I like to try different things and tune my own gear. Some people don't, and that's fine too.


it's just hard to know about the authenticity of information sometimes, especially on these subjects... it's almost like some are pushing an agenda, which I don't understand.... that isn't pointed at anyone, just the overall theme of arrow weight talk here.


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## whack&stack (Oct 15, 2007)

Bc if you can push 684g over 295fps why wouldn’t you?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## enewman (Jun 5, 2007)

whack&stack said:


> Bc if you can push 684g over 295fps why wouldn’t you?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Dang I hate being short. Haha. If I could do that I would be shooting arrows in the 30% foc range. And still be over 250fps.


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## plecavalier (Jan 10, 2008)

Chasing speed with heavy long draw weight? It's a beautiful thing. But for everyone else that either can't or won't you must turn to efficiency. Either you chase one or the other. If you chase speed you'll need 40% (roughly) the speed over the weight of another arrow. That's to match on paper. Since not all momentum (or KE as some prefer) is created equally you actually a lot more. I don't know what that number is primarily because it varies based on criteria. But let's just give it a number, say another 10%. That's being conservative. So to match my 800gn 200fps arrow on paper I need 280fps @ 400gn. That's realistic right. But that's on paper. To match the actual momentum so that both arrows stop at the same time during penetration I actually need 320fps. Now we're reaching into IBO which means you need 70/350 setup. Some may same that's fine. Yes it's a match so why one over the other? It is because we're talking about point blank shots here. Since weight carries velocity down range the lighter arrow will loose fps faster than the heavier one and that effect will be compounded when met with resistance during penetration.

That is why we shoot a heavy Arrow. Because it's more efficient. Or one could say it is much easier to meet you phishing with a heavier Arrow. One exception is a guy drawing very long and very heavy. But 32/80 proud is not the majority.

the numbers I posted our rough estimation off the top of my head based on my experience and testing over the years. I intend to gather raw data for analysis and then we can really talk fact.


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## Early Ice (Mar 18, 2008)

Since i've gone to heavy arrows, few things I've noticed that has been consistent when shooting a deer

- deer stand around yet looking like what happened. Everyone knows heavy arrows are quieter. Less deer being spooked by the noise.
- Hit deer seem to not run as hard, 75% take a 10 foot bound, walk off or just stand there like nothing happened.
- This year shot a fully mature doe through the scapula, broke two ribs in half and still passed through. That was accidental, I was drawn a long time, she was nervous about a buck on the other side of the tree. It was more of a quartering to shot than I thought. I'm not sure a 400 grain arrow does what that did to her. she ran off 50 yards and bleed like crazy.

So heavy arrows IMO help more ways than one. I like the fact that when you shoot, you aren't spooking the whole woods. 

I'm at 598 and 213 fps w 50 lbs. Speed was on my mind, but I realized that speed doesn't mean a thing. Mainstream commercialized hunting has clouded everyone's minds. Years ago I was all about trying to keep my arrow around 250-260 fps but I had no idea why. Sure I killed many deer over the last 35 years....but i'm embarrassed to admit I was a dummy. I was totally uneducated as to the benefits of more mass. 

I realized that light arrows and expandables are just lowering your chances of success when you have that "praying to god" moment. Everyone makes a bad shot now and again, it happens. I am siding with science as you get better results all around IMO.

A guy at work the other day said heavy arrows are pointless as you don't need that kind of power......says the guy that drives a dodge diesel that doesn't pull a boat, camper or anything heavy....


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## deadquiet (Jan 25, 2005)

That's why I shoot them to EarlyIce. I have seen the same thing over the years and here are a couple more:

- fixed broad heads are more forgiving at slower speeds
- it's easier on the bow (I have owned and hunted with many of the Blowtech's that were prone to limb failure with no issues)
- I hunt tight thick areas and LOVE the thrill of taking game at close range...….so trajectory isn't a big deal

I shoot around 480 (when I getting the speed bug.....lol) to about 525 on all my bows. That usually puts me in the 220 - 245 range depending on the bow and how I choose to set it up. It's NOT for everyone but it's perfect for me and really that's all I'm concerned about...….lol


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## jaximus (Feb 23, 2015)

Early Ice said:


> Since i've gone to heavy arrows, few things I've noticed that has been consistent when shooting a deer
> 
> - deer stand around yet looking like what happened. Everyone knows heavy arrows are quieter. Less deer being spooked by the noise.
> - Hit deer seem to not run as hard, 75% take a 10 foot bound, walk off or just stand there like nothing happened.
> ...


not trying to be problematic, but a few questions as im a very objective and i need to know the hows and whys. 

you mentioned since going to "heavy arrows" youve seen this change. was that ONLY a mass change, or a head change as well? (that makes a difference) 

the speed difference by going to a heavy arrow (lower speed) means less resistance (less felt resistance by the deer). 

pick a quiet, smooth bow to begin with and you will see similar benefits from varying arrow weights. marketing with speed has given people the wrong opinion on things. take a fast bow and youll need a heavier arrow to make it quiet. then you get this belief that you need a heavy arrow to silence your bow. 

again, this is why i am so big on posting your setups and specs. this gives insight into the hows and whys. are you using weight to tame a loud bow? are you hunting larger or tougher game? long or short shots? public or private land? it all makes a difference


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## deadquiet (Jan 25, 2005)

whack&stack said:


> Bc if you can push 684g over 295fps why wouldn’t you?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Hard to argue that point. I can tell you why you don't want to shoot a 375 @ 75 pounds (as a hunter) but if you soak up all that extra draw weight with a heavy arrow it's a win win as long as it's comfortable.


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## plecavalier (Jan 10, 2008)

jaximus said:


> not trying to be problematic, but a few questions as im a very objective and i to the hows and whys.
> 
> you mentioned since going to "heavy arrows" youve seen this change. was that ONLY a mass change, or a head change as well? (that makes a difference)
> 
> ...


The biggest impact related to resistance is the velocity. Mass reduces velocity. If you reduce velocity by any other means you've really lowered energy. I eluded to what I feel the ratio is an an earlier post. It's an uphill battle to say the least.

Second to that is head design. So if you take a fast arrow (increased resistance) and a large cut / abrupt angled head you've basically got the worst of both worlds. An Ashby type head going slower leave the animal wondering what has happened. Imo the reduced noise is the third and more subtle factor. Not be be ignored of course but imo it's a subsidiary of the more important factors.


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## Early Ice (Mar 18, 2008)

jaximus said:


> not trying to be problematic, but a few questions as im a very objective and i need to know the hows and whys.
> 
> you mentioned since going to "heavy arrows" youve seen this change. was that ONLY a mass change, or a head change as well? (that makes a difference)
> 
> ...


I changed arrow spine to 300's, added a 100 grain SS insert and went to 200 grain FIXED heads.

Yes, resistance force I believe is the determining factor. How i understand resistance force is the object strikes (KE) the harder the resistance force acted upon the object. So as Deadquiet eluded to, less resistance on the deer, they feel less pain or less shock? Like a bullet, the bullet hits and the deer takes off like a raped ape or it falls over.

I hunt only whitetail in the midwest, private and public and my limit is 30 yards, I like them at 24 or closer. I haven't shot a deer over 24 yards for about 14 years. I like them close, so heavy arrows, trajectory is pretty much the same at 20 yards with a 350 grain arrow or 600.


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## jaximus (Feb 23, 2015)

plecavalier said:


> The biggest impact related to resistance is the velocity. Mass reduces velocity. If you reduce velocity by any other means you've really lowered energy. I eluded to what I feel the ratio is an an earlier post. It's an uphill battle to say the least.
> 
> Second to that is head design. So if you take a fast arrow (increased resistance) and a large cut / abrupt angled head you've basically got the worst of both worlds. An Ashby type head going slower leave the animal wondering what has happened. Imo the reduced noise is the third and more subtle factor. Not be be ignored of course but imo it's a subsidiary of the more important factors.


you are addressing what i was getting at in my questions, so i think i got my points through. 

as for 'reducing velocity by other means'... we both did it, you with 50# limbs and me with 60# on my new bow vs my previous 70#. could i have continued to shoot 70, sure, but 60 is plenty for my ranges and its quieter and smoother. 

the low impact heads and less impact resistance from lower speeds and deer hardly react.


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## plecavalier (Jan 10, 2008)

Early Ice said:


> I changed arrow spine to 300's, added a 100 grain SS insert and went to 200 grain FIXED heads.
> 
> Yes, resistance force I believe is the determining factor. How i understand resistance force is the object strikes (KE) the harder the resistance force acted upon the object. So as Deadquiet eluded to, less resistance on the deer, they feel less pain or less shock? Like a bullet, the bullet hits and the deer takes off like a raped ape or it falls over.
> 
> I hunt only whitetail in the midwest, private and public and my limit is 30 yards, I like them at 24 or closer. I haven't shot a deer over 24 yards for about 14 years. I like them close, so heavy arrows, trajectory is pretty much the same at 20 yards with a 350 grain arrow or 600.


I often like to make the comparison to bullets and KE when talking about resistance. IMO if a guy focuses on KE and velocity he is choosing an approach that is more conducive to hunting with a firearm. With an arrow you want that subtle (slow) penetration with a lot of lasting force. Not an explosive force on impact that dies off quickly. And that's the mistake imo is thinking the fast light arrow doesn't die off quickly because it has speed.


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## Early Ice (Mar 18, 2008)

jaximus said:


> not trying to be problematic, but a few questions as im a very objective and i need to know the hows and whys.
> 
> you mentioned since going to "heavy arrows" youve seen this change. was that ONLY a mass change, or a head change as well? (that makes a difference)
> 
> ...


I changed arrow spine to 300's, added a 100 grain SS insert and went to 200 grain FIXED heads.

Yes, resistance force I believe is the determining factor. How i understand resistance force is how hard an object strikes (KE), the harder the resistance force acted upon the object. I understand that KE is how hard an object strikes (thats it) So as Deadquiet eluded to, less resistance on the deer, they feel less pain or less shock? Like a bullet, the bullet hits and the deer takes off like a raped ape or it falls over.

SO also, how i understand KE and resistance force is....the faster an object strikes or hits (the arrow) the faster the object stops (resistance force).

I hunt only whitetail in the midwest, private and public and my limit is 30 yards, I like them at 24 or closer. I haven't shot a deer over 24 yards for about 14 years. I like them close, so heavy arrows, trajectory is pretty much the same at 20 yards with a 350 grain arrow or 600.

I don't use a heavy arrow to tame a fast bow. I shoot a 50lb bow because i tore up my shoulder in 2008 and struggle with soreness with 60lbs. I shoot 50lbs and have no issues whatsoever. If i could be at 62lbs yet, I'd probably be shooting a 250 or a 315 grain head. 

I've never been a speed chaser cause i preferred fixed heads. Over 280 fps fixed heads require a lot more attention and tuning. Even at 260 you had to keep that bow timed and all things as good as you could for true flight...at 28 3/4 inch draw, chasing speed would be like a 5'10" white guy chasing his dreams of being in the NBA

NOTE: if i'm wrong or need correction on my heavy arrow science others will correct me.  I am a believer though. It was tough to fight that need for speed though as media has shoved speed down everyone's throat.


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## plecavalier (Jan 10, 2008)

jaximus said:


> you are addressing what i was getting at in my questions, so i think i got my points through.
> 
> as for 'reducing velocity by other means'... we both did it, you with 50# limbs and me with 60# on my new bow vs my previous 70#. could i have continued to shoot 70, sure, but 60 is plenty for my ranges and its quieter and smoother.
> 
> the low impact heads and less impact resistance from lower speeds and deer hardly react.


Yes however, I didn't reduce my draw weight to slow my arrow or quiet my bow. I did it for other reasons. Imo u less you're drawing too much weight you're much better off increasing arrow weight and leaving draw as is than leaving arrow weight and reducing draw weight.

If you reduce draw you have to also increase arrow weight otherwise you're loosing momentum. So you're [email protected] and now [email protected] is quiet and has less penetration resistance buy it has less energy whereas if you had increased arrow weight proportionately you'd have kept the same momentum. Let's guestimate [email protected] was .55 slugs and [email protected] is now .50. You'd want to go to maybe 525 to retain the.55 slugs. To be clear not saying it is required; [email protected] as long as you're 27" and up will do well for whitetail no doubt. But you lost energy. We're not discussing overkill/balanced/good enough here. Just the factors that come into play in comparing light/ fast with heavy/slow and making apples to apples out of it.


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## jaximus (Feb 23, 2015)

Early Ice said:


> I changed arrow spine to 300's, added a 100 grain SS insert and went to 200 grain FIXED heads.
> 
> Yes, resistance force I believe is the determining factor. How i understand resistance force is the object strikes (KE) the harder the resistance force acted upon the object. So as Deadquiet eluded to, less resistance on the deer, they feel less pain or less shock? Like a bullet, the bullet hits and the deer takes off like a raped ape or it falls over.
> 
> I hunt only whitetail in the midwest, private and public and my limit is 30 yards, I like them at 24 or closer. I haven't shot a deer over 24 yards for about 14 years. I like them close, so heavy arrows, trajectory is pretty much the same at 20 yards with a 350 grain arrow or 600.


so you did a whole transformation, one end of the spectrum to another. from light with mechs to heavy and fixed. its really hard to draw any real conclusions then because you missed the whole middle ground and area with light and fixed and heavy with mechs. you went from a very high resistance (high impact on the deer) to the other extreme. careful on how you draw conclusions. is it the head, the speed, the weight, sound quality, a combination?


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## Early Ice (Mar 18, 2008)

plecavalier said:


> Yes however, I didn't reduce my draw weight to slow my arrow or quiet my bow. I did it for other reasons. Imo u less you're drawing too much weight you're much better off increasing arrow weight and leaving draw as is than leaving arrow weight and reducing draw weight.
> 
> If you reduce draw you have to also increase arrow weight otherwise you're loosing momentum. So you're [email protected] and now [email protected] is quiet and has less penetration resistance buy it has less energy whereas if you had increased arrow weight proportionately you'd have kept the same momentum. Let's guestimate [email protected] was .55 slugs and [email protected] is now .50. You'd want to go to maybe 525 to retain the.55 slugs. To be clear not saying it is required; [email protected] as long as you're 27" and up will do well for whitetail no doubt. But you lost energy. We're not discussing overkill/balanced/good enough here. Just the factors that come into play in comparing light/ fast with heavy/slow and making apples to apples out of it.


Now what makes your posting interesting and funny at the same time ( i fully agree with the post ) is that when one goes down in weight due to injury or something, they think they need to get lighter arrows but to increase momentum they would have to do the opposite. Great post bud.


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## Early Ice (Mar 18, 2008)

jaximus said:


> so you did a whole transformation, one end of the spectrum to another. from light with mechs to heavy and fixed. its really hard to draw any real conclusions then because you missed the whole middle ground and area with light and fixed and heavy with mechs. you went from a very high resistance (high impact on the deer) to the other extreme. careful on how you draw conclusions. is it the head, the speed, the weight, sound quality, a combination?


No I didn't. I left out the middle info. I went from various setups in that 390 to 450 range. I've shot deer with just about every mechanical you can think of and fixed as well. Most of my experience has been with lighter arrows and a mix of over the top expandables, Rage type and fixed. I went from fixed to expandable, back to fixed, jumped on the rage bandwagon in 2005, then back off to fixed...and shooting fixed for the last 10 years or so. 

My results in the last 5 years have been better as I keep going up the spectrum. heavier arrows, lower poundage. For me the lower poundage wasn't a choice but it's working well.


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## plecavalier (Jan 10, 2008)

Early Ice said:


> Now what makes your posting interesting and funny at the same time ( i fully agree with the post ) is that when one goes down in weight due to injury or something, they think they need to get lighter arrows but to increase momentum they would have to do the opposite. Great post bud.


@early Yes. And it's something that is a perfectly natural assumption for any human to make. So we see this sort of thing a ton. And if you look at Jack's response he is essentially dismissing what you're saying despite what I'm saying. Yes you changed a lot but it is all inline and related therefore you just saw more of the effect than someone who had merely added mass.

@everyone else. Again it comes down to the difference in approach; some wqnt to dive deep into maximizing efficiency others [email protected] to see performance or else they're not changing a thing. Speed feels good. It's comforting to a bowhunter. Imo what's more comforting is shooting an animal and watching him look back wondering what hit him only to expire before realizing the event that just occured. I don't know man...is that draw conclusions irresponsibly? Which would you rather see?


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## Early Ice (Mar 18, 2008)

jaximus said:


> so you did a whole transformation, one end of the spectrum to another. from light with mechs to heavy and fixed. its really hard to draw any real conclusions then because you missed the whole middle ground and area with light and fixed and heavy with mechs. you went from a very high resistance (high impact on the deer) to the other extreme. careful on how you draw conclusions. is it the head, the speed, the weight, sound quality, a combination?


I actually went from what I thought was heavy (compared to industry standard ) in 438 grains and shot that a while because it seemed to work better....not actually knowing why. Then I went to different arrows, up to 455...then to 125 grain heads so 480 for a few years, then to 515, 535, then 150's and different arrows to 560 now at 598 with a whole different setup. so I progressively worked my way up but not until the last 2 years did I go up knowing that this is helping me in many more ways that I even knew.

note: I went up in head weight a couple times because i have a buddy the preached "weight forward"....more weight up front seems to help he would always say. With no real science to back it up besides his results on the range and in the field. ******* testing so to speak.


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## jaximus (Feb 23, 2015)

plecavalier said:


> Yes however, I didn't reduce my draw weight to slow my arrow or quiet my bow. I did it for other reasons. Imo u less you're drawing too much weight you're much better off increasing arrow weight and leaving draw as is than leaving arrow weight and reducing draw weight.
> 
> If you reduce draw you have to also increase arrow weight otherwise you're loosing momentum. So you're [email protected] and now [email protected] is quiet and has less penetration resistance buy it has less energy whereas if you had increased arrow weight proportionately you'd have kept the same momentum. Let's guestimate [email protected] was .55 slugs and [email protected] is now .50. You'd want to go to maybe 525 to retain the.55 slugs. To be clear not saying it is required; [email protected] as long as you're 27" and up will do well for whitetail no doubt. But you lost energy. We're not discussing overkill/balanced/good enough here. Just the factors that come into play in comparing light/ fast with heavy/slow and making apples to apples out of it.


i lost energy, no doubt, but i gained elsewhere. i was teetering on spine at 70. at 60 im stiff enough i COULD add 25gr more up front and still be slightly stiff. that would put me at 500gr and 21% FoC, but i probably wont. this is using a spine that i can get super cheap. late season by me is cold, 60# is stiff after sitting a few hrs. shooting a 60 arrow round at 60# is pretty easy after doing it at 70. i have a 29" draw.


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## plecavalier (Jan 10, 2008)

Early Ice said:


> I actually went from what I thought was heavy (compared to industry standard ) in 438 grains and shot that a while because it seemed to work better....not actually knowing why. Then I went to different arrows, up to 455...then to 125 grain heads so 480 for a few years, then to 515, 535, then 150's and different arrows to 560 now at 598 with a whole different setup. so I progressively worked my way up but not until the last 2 years did I go up knowing that this is helping me in many more ways that I even knew.


Yep. And most of "us" have. Heck I actually shot 325gn aluminum arrows with a makeshift overdraw at 70# once upon a time. What many don't realize is that most of us have gone from one extreme to another and everything in between. I don't recommend extremes unlike what some may think. What most comical to me is when actually look at what it takes to reach efficiency and you apply a compromising approach aka pick a balanced middle ground you'd actually end up at about 650.

You have to consider that with a modern compound with an IBO of 330/40 at 28/29 inch draw and 70# you will maximize efficiency somewhere around 2000 grains. That means your compromise is a 1000 grain arrow haha.


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## plecavalier (Jan 10, 2008)

jaximus said:


> i lost energy, no doubt, but i gained elsewhere. i was teetering on spine at 70. at 60 im stiff enough i COULD add 25gr more up front and still be slightly stiff. that would put me at 500gr and 21% FoC, but i probably wont. this is using a spine that i can get super cheap. late season by me is cold, 60# is stiff after sitting a few hrs. shooting a 60 arrow round at 60# is pretty easy after doing it at 70. i have a 29" draw.


Where/how did you gain it (it being energy) elsewhere? Not trying to be an ass Jack. Just you say you lowered your draw by 10lbs and didn't increase mass but you gained energy elsewhere. A better choice in spine might get you 3 or 4 fps if you're lucky.


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## enewman (Jun 5, 2007)

plecavalier said:


> Yep. And most of "us" have. Heck I actually shot 325gn aluminum arrows with a makeshift overdraw at 70# once upon a time. What many don't realize is that most of us have gone from one extreme to another and everything in between. I don't recommend extremes unlike what some may think. What most comical to me is when actually look at what it takes to reach efficiency and you apply a compromising approach aka pick a balanced middle ground you'd actually end up at about 650.
> 
> You have to consider that with a modern compound with an IBO of 330/40 at 28/29 inch draw and 70# you will maximize efficiency somewhere around 2000 grains. That means your compromise is a 1000 grain arrow haha.


 I can’t get a damn arrow to 2000gr. Hell my 1551 has a 600gr tip on it hahaha.


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## plecavalier (Jan 10, 2008)

enewman said:


> I can’t get a damn arrow to 2000gr. Hell my 1551 has a 600gr tip on it hahaha.


I know! Even my 1% FoC was still only 1025gn. The most I got with rooting through my tickle trunk of supplies was about 1300. Cx 350 inside a 2114 inside a 2317. Mind you had I had a 600gn point I would have been at 1600.


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## jaximus (Feb 23, 2015)

plecavalier said:


> Where/how did you gain it (it being energy) elsewhere? Not trying to be an ass Jack. Just you say you lowered your draw by 10lbs and didn't increase mass but you gained energy elsewhere. A better choice in spine might get you 3 or 4 fps if you're lucky.


i never said i gained energy, phil. "i gained elsewhere." elsewhere being NOT energy. reread my post.


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## plecavalier (Jan 10, 2008)

jaximus said:


> i never said i gained energy, phil. "i gained elsewhere." elsewhere being NOT energy. reread my post.


Fair enough. That means you lost a lot of energy. It would take a lot of analysis to come to a number to quantify what you lost but draw weight is a big factor. You've said you're content so it's all good and [email protected] is good. I'm just using your specs and changes as comparison because you offer it up as proof many times to say 650 isn't needed when someone asks why they'd want to shoot 650.

A lot of guys are capable of looking at what energy their current setup is giving them and when they move to 650 they do t end up comparing apples to apples and concluded they've lost too much for and trajectory and thus, there is no gain. When you lower velocity by adding mass you can no longer look to fps to conclude what you've gained.


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## enewman (Jun 5, 2007)

plecavalier said:


> I know! Even my 1% FoC was still only 1025gn. The most I got with rooting through my tickle trunk of supplies was about 1300. Cx 350 inside a 2114 inside a 2317. Mind you had I had a 600gn point I would have been at 1600.


I need to build me a couple of 800gr field points


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## jaximus (Feb 23, 2015)

plecavalier said:


> @early Yes. And it's something that is a perfectly natural assumption for any human to make. So we see this sort of thing a ton. And if you look at Jack's response he is essentially dismissing what you're saying despite what I'm saying. Yes you changed a lot but it is all inline and related therefore you just saw more of the effect than someone who had merely added mass.
> 
> @everyone else. Again it comes down to the difference in approach; some wqnt to dive deep into maximizing efficiency others [email protected] to see performance or else they're not changing a thing. Speed feels good. It's comforting to a bowhunter. Imo what's more comforting is shooting an animal and watching him look back wondering what hit him only to expire before realizing the event that just occured. I don't know man...is that draw conclusions irresponsibly? Which would you rather see?


phil, im going to tell you to slow down again here. if you really read what im saying, look into the meaning and not just skim it for a reply, you would see something. by moving limbs, i could better optimize an arrow shaft. of my entire setup, the arrow spine(shaft) is the only thing i wont change. i have 8 dozen. the rest i can and do adjust as needed. i can now build a heavier arrow with more FoC if i ever run into an issue...


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## plecavalier (Jan 10, 2008)

jaximus said:


> phil, im going to tell you to slow down again here. if you really read what im saying, look into the meaning and not just skim it for a reply, you would see something. by moving limbs, i could better optimize an arrow shaft. of my entire setup, the arrow spine(shaft) is the only thing i wont change. i have 8 dozen. the rest i can and do adjust as needed. i can now build a heavier arrow with more FoC if i ever run into an issue...


Without seeming condanscending Jack I know exactly what you're trying to convey. What you're not acknowledging is the point I'm trying to make when you consistently compare your set up to someone wanting to increase arrow weight beyond what you deem necessary. This is why we always end up arguing and you still don't see it. I unblocked you this morning in order to have this discussion yet another time. Somehow we still end up with you telling me I can't read and to slow down...


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## nightvision (Aug 30, 2011)

enewman said:


> I can’t get a damn arrow to 2000gr. Hell my 1551 has a 600gr tip on it hahaha.


Buy a Muzzy gator getter fishing arrow.


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## roosiebull (Oct 3, 2010)

Early Ice said:


> Since i've gone to heavy arrows, few things I've noticed that has been consistent when shooting a deer
> 
> - deer stand around yet looking like what happened. Everyone knows heavy arrows are quieter. Less deer being spooked by the noise.
> - Hit deer seem to not run as hard, 75% take a 10 foot bound, walk off or just stand there like nothing happened.
> ...





deadquiet said:


> That's why I shoot them to EarlyIce. I have seen the same thing over the years and here are a couple more:
> 
> - fixed broad heads are more forgiving at slower speeds
> - it's easier on the bow (I have owned and hunted with many of the Blowtech's that were prone to limb failure with no issues)
> ...


all of that is very valid to me, and within those 2 replies is why I have went to heavier than normal. super forgiving fixed head flight, quiet, good penetration (but not magical) seems to keep shot game calm.

where these threads go sideways are the extreme views highlighting the extreme benefits, that we are supposed to just believe without any evidence besides "trust me" too many lofty claims, not enough proof (to convince me you NEED a super heavy arrow in NA) of course momentum goes up with weight, so hunting the dark continent, yeah, silly heavy arrows make sense, but folks fail to realize the benefits here when the extremes are what's being emphasized, rather that the aspects that are actually6 beneficial to us.

all of those factors you guys mention can be had with less arrow weight, if you are like me, you may not care to shoot lighter, because you aren't planning on shooting any shots where trajectory will be in the equation... but a lot of the arguing here is from people who have been fine tuning their setups non stop, have really forgiving arrow flight, great penetration, whisper quiet bows, etc... because they wanted the heavy arrow benefits with the lightest arrow they could get it with (seems like those folks like jaximus are shooting 450-475gr out of 60lb bows, or guys shooting 500-550gr from 70lb bows) in their thoughts (which I agree with) there is no benefit to going heavier for them, they found that perfect compromise for what they do, they have perfect arrow flight, along with every benefit of heavy arrows without going extreme.

I didn't take the time to do that, because I knew I could jump up in weight pretty far without compromise. I knew I could keep an arrow well within an elk's vitals from 10-35yds with my 642gr arrow, and I will get a range or not shoot beyond 30yds, and will not shoot past 40yds no matter what (besides follow-up shots) any close bull I will shoot top pin, any that are a little further, shoot my second pin, and anything else, i'm ranging anyhow. I like ranging if I can, even 25yds, which I usually can, i'm always trying to slow the encounter down, and make the shot as cognitive as I can anyways, so I don't see any of that as a compromise.... if I don't get a shot, oh well, it means I get to keep hunting, and I will hunt up another opportunity.... no skin off my back:wink:

what causes pages and pages of argument is these folks who have taken the time to test and hunt with different arrows to find that perfect compromise for what they do, then have people telling them they should go heavier, for reasons unproven. I like heavy arrows, but there is a "too heavy" for anyone in practical terms.

another cause for argument is the light and fast crowd saying heavy arrows are dumb, and spew a bunch of misconceptions proving they have zero experience there, and they are hell bent on muddying the waters with misinformation and misconceptions.

I think there have been some valid arguments in this thread from many different angles, these threads could be a lot more useful if people were willing to put their pride to the side, and acknowledge the good arguments that may go against their theories, and keep an open mind, and have some constructive conversation, but everyone wants validation for their decisions, and wants everyone else to follow.

I favor heavier than lighter, but I have killed more elk with light arrows, than heavy, or even middle of the road weights, and saw the effectiveness of these arrows that should have bounced off bull elk.... when I was shooting those light arrows, I compounded things further by shooting an untuned bow... I would shoot field points all year, then around august 1st, I would sight in with my broadheads and only shoot them until season... that was my main reason for shooting muzzy, a 6pk was 40 bucks, buy 2 of those, I would have plenty of practice heads, and hunting heads on the cheap, and they worked.

I went on a 7yr roll of not even looking for a drop of blood on elk, just go walk over to where I saw or heard them tip over, the first 5 yrs of that streak were with a 63lb bow, 380gr arrows out of an untuned bow, then the next 2 were when I bumped weight up, and was shooting 70lb bows.

there wouldn't be pages and pages of arguments if there was a clear advantage either way. I certainly understand the merits of heavy arrows, and personally think they are the way to go, but you don't NEED them to kill game, especially deer. shooting a lighter, low foc arrow doesn't mean you will be leaving a trail of wounded game everywhere you go, and shooting a heavy, high foc arrow doesn't mean you can shoot through a big oak tree, penetrate it and kill the buck on the other side. a high energy arrow is still a pretty low energy projectile in the big scheme of things. I believe in finding the right balance for what you will be doing.... I have hunted with both ends of the spectrum, nothing is magic, we ultimately need to make good shots and the arrow will do it's job within reason.


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## KS Bow Hunter (Nov 22, 2013)

Math genius.


plecavalier said:


> You made an 11 yard mistake. That's 33 feet off.


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## roosiebull (Oct 3, 2010)

enewman said:


> I can’t get a damn arrow to 2000gr. Hell my 1551 has a 600gr tip on it hahaha.


just poor lead into an aluminum arrow, get a whole bunch of weight in the form of foc (as long as you dump the lead in the right end:wink small lead pots are pretty cheap...


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## KS Bow Hunter (Nov 22, 2013)

I'm not sure that a heavier arrow going slower at least according to basic physics principles will have less felt resistance to to the deer...


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## plecavalier (Jan 10, 2008)

roosiebull said:


> just poor lead into an aluminum arrow, get a whole bunch of weight in the form of foc (as long as you dump the lead in the right end:wink small lead pots are pretty cheap...


Interesting you should mention this Mike. So you have actual experience doing this by any chance? I picked up nearly 10 pounds of lead last year in the hopes of doing exactly that (and make a counterweight for a RAM tester) but kept being told it is dangerous to melt down lead. That if there's any humidity (?) it could spit all over the place. So the stock of lead just sits in my garage taunting me.


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## plecavalier (Jan 10, 2008)

KS Bow Hunter said:


> Math genius.


Hm. Missing the point are we?


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## General RE LEE (Nov 8, 2012)

450 grain Black Eagle Carnivore 15% FOC is the sweet spot I found for whitetail here in TN. Hit this guy on a hard quartering shot behind back rib and arrow exited out the front. 1.5” Rage Hypodermic with blades touched up with a Lansky set and stropped on leather with a polishing rouge. Hair popping sharp blades make a difference on slicing through tissue. 




















Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## plecavalier (Jan 10, 2008)

KS Bow Hunter said:


> I'm not sure that a heavier arrow going slower at least according to basic physics principles will have less felt resistance to to the deer...


Then you need to look into that. When you get to the final conclusion, no need to post, we already know that a slower arrow has less resistance. It's squared to be exact.


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## jaximus (Feb 23, 2015)

plecavalier said:


> Without seeming condanscending Jack I know exactly what you're trying to convey. What you're not acknowledging is the point I'm trying to make when you consistently compare your set up to someone wanting to increase arrow weight beyond what you deem necessary. This is why we always end up arguing and you still don't see it. I unblocked you this morning in order to have this discussion yet another time. Somehow we still end up with you telling me I can't read and to slow down...


im very open minded, please dont get me wrong. what i dont want to see happen is people in a quest to improve penetration, back themselves into a corner by being too drastic too soon. whether that corner is financial, availabiltiy, assembly, or versitility. im merely making sure they are aware of options along their path. 

for certain applications, i fully admit i would modify my setup. if i didnt have unlimited tags and shoot a zillion different critters i might modify things. but having unlimited tags lets me have my own whitetail test lab.


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## roosiebull (Oct 3, 2010)

plecavalier said:


> Interesting you should mention this Mike. So you have actual experience doing this by any chance? I picked up nearly 10 pounds of lead last year in the hopes of doing exactly that (and make a counterweight for a RAM tester) but kept being told it is dangerous to melt down lead. That if there's any humidity (?) it could spit all over the place. So the stock of lead just sits in my garage taunting me.


it's not true, we have crazy humidity here on the coast, and it's not an issue at all, you just don't want to have any water in it (of course) but moisture in the air doesn't matter. a really good friend of mine used to have a fishing tackle business, and I have helped him pour 1000's of pounds of lead, without issue..... use some common sense and you're fine.... it's like deep frying food, same rules apply pretty much


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## KS Bow Hunter (Nov 22, 2013)

What is your definition of resistance?


jaximus said:


> not trying to be problematic, but a few questions as im a very objective and i need to know the hows and whys.
> 
> you mentioned since going to "heavy arrows" youve seen this change. was that ONLY a mass change, or a head change as well? (that makes a difference)
> 
> ...





plecavalier said:


> The biggest impact related to resistance is the velocity. Mass reduces velocity. If you reduce velocity by any other means you've really lowered energy. I eluded to what I feel the ratio is an an earlier post. It's an uphill battle to say the least.
> 
> Second to that is head design. So if you take a fast arrow (increased resistance) and a large cut / abrupt angled head you've basically got the worst of both worlds. An Ashby type head going slower leave the animal wondering what has happened. Imo the reduced noise is the third and more subtle factor. Not be be ignored of course but imo it's a subsidiary of the more important factors.





plecavalier said:


> Then you need to look into that. When you get to the final conclusion, no need to post, we already know that a slower arrow has less resistance. It's squared to be exact.


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## plecavalier (Jan 10, 2008)

KS Bow Hunter said:


> What is your definition of resistance?


Just do your homework and stop posting misinformation.

r= m X v^2

Newton's third law would probably be a good place for you to start.


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## KS Bow Hunter (Nov 22, 2013)

I'm not sure where you are getting your information, but I have looked into it. Recently, and as a mechanical engineering graduate. A slower arrow from the same bow, 650 grains at 217 fps has a MO of .63 and a KE of 67.9. The same bow firing a 435 grain arrow at 291 fps will have a MO of .56 and KE of 81.7. The slower arrow will penetrate further, and be more difficult to stop given the MO value than the faster lighter arrow. That's physics. These are real world examples out of my bow too by the way. "Resistance" if you mean the ability of the object being shot to feel the projectile, the arrow with 12% more momentum will feel 12% more impactful.



plecavalier said:


> Then you need to look into that. When you get to the final conclusion, no need to post, we already know that a slower arrow has less resistance. It's squared to be exact.


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## KS Bow Hunter (Nov 22, 2013)

plecavalier said:


> Just do your homework and stop posting misinformation.
> 
> r= m X v^2
> 
> Newton's third law would probably be a good place for you to start.


Wow Doogie Howser, I have a BSME and started my MSE before shifting careers...I've done a little bit of physics in my day...but just a little...


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## KS Bow Hunter (Nov 22, 2013)

I'm not entirely sure where you are getting that equation...resistance is generally referred to in electrical equations relative to Ohms law, or where there is a known frictional coefficient in dynamics. Assuming you are talking about KE then yes, the heavier arrow has less kinetic energy, however, this is not what causes the felt impact. Think about a bee flying at 40 MPH running into a Mack truck doing 1 MPH. We all know what happens. That is due to momentum. The more momentum you have in an arrow, the more the animal will "feel" it so to speak...assuming exact same head, shot angle, etc. I am a scientist by training, I don't post misinformation, but I am human and do make mistakes.


plecavalier said:


> Just do your homework and stop posting misinformation.
> 
> r= m X v^2
> 
> Newton's third law would probably be a good place for you to start.


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## KS Bow Hunter (Nov 22, 2013)

So -- Newton's 3rd Law is for every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction. Got it.

So an arrow hits a deer with a MO of .75.

A second arrow hits a deer with a MO of .50.

Which arrow "feels" more impactful to the deer, using Newton's 3rd law?



plecavalier said:


> Just do your homework and stop posting misinformation.
> 
> r= m X v^2
> 
> Newton's third law would probably be a good place for you to start.


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## plecavalier (Jan 10, 2008)

KS Bow Hunter said:


> Wow Doogie Howser, I have a BSME and started my MSE before shifting careers...I've done a little bit of physics in my day...but just a little...


Pompous and arrogant such a typical combination for an engineer. I'm glad you recently started looking into this because I've only recently look into this for the past 20 years. You know, on one hand you want to have the utmost intelligent conversation but on the other you're thriving to find the most condescending insult you can find.I'm not going to waste my afternoon going back and forth with the likes of you.Whatever you think you have me hung on have added. I've proven to myself and tons of other people that I know what I'm talking about. If you were as smart as you're trying to portray you would not have to showboat all of those credentials nor would you assume everyone around you is dumb and inexperienced.


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## KS Bow Hunter (Nov 22, 2013)

I don't think you are dumb or inexperienced, and I am not the one who said I was posting misinformation and I should educate myself on the laws of physics. You told me I should do that, and I let you know that I had...and you are telling everyone on here that you know everything about everything, yet I can't find a "resistance" equation that matches what you posted, so I was asking where it came from and what you meant by it. I'm sorry if I offended you...

So here is another graph for you to ponder from archeryreport.com that shows a basic arrow from a basic bow...

Which arrow do you think packs the most "punch" in your world?









plecavalier said:


> Pompous and arrogant such a typical combination for an engineer. I'm glad you recently started looking into this because I've only recently look into this for the past 20 years. You know, on one hand you want to have the utmost intelligent conversation but on the other you're thriving to find the most condescending insult you can find.I'm not going to waste my afternoon going back and forth with the likes of you.Whatever you think you have me hung on have added. I've proven to myself and tons of other people that I know what I'm talking about. If you were as smart as you're trying to portray you would not have to showboat all of those credentials nor would you assume everyone around you is dumb and inexperienced.


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## treestandrx3 (Dec 1, 2018)

See another thread on AT has turned into a pissing match . GEEZ , what a surprise .


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## plecavalier (Jan 10, 2008)

KS Bow Hunter said:


> So -- Newton's 3rd Law is for every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction. Got it.
> 
> So an arrow hits a deer with a MO of .75.
> 
> ...


I would have thought an engineer with such qualifications would be accustomed to trick questions...

This was a trap. Because we have points with blades in conjunction with arrow Mass and we are not shooting blunt objects they are not equal and opposite reaction. But there is a basis for resistance as in a long slim head on an arrow that has a lot of weight will have much less resistance then and abrupt angle short head with a light Arrow.


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## KS Bow Hunter (Nov 22, 2013)

And by the way, this is an interesting topic to me, and if you go back a few pages you will see that I fully admitted that my perception was a greater drop in arrows that were heavier vs. light ones...I've never found a good online trajectory calculator but I have looked at MO and KE of my arrows and learned about it when I was getting into archery...you see, what you might think it pompous or arrogant is what us engineers do...we research and seek to understand, and we tend to want to make sense of the physics of a scenario...it is how we are wired...again sorry if I offended you...



plecavalier said:


> Pompous and arrogant such a typical combination for an engineer. I'm glad you recently started looking into this because I've only recently look into this for the past 20 years. You know, on one hand you want to have the utmost intelligent conversation but on the other you're thriving to find the most condescending insult you can find.I'm not going to waste my afternoon going back and forth with the likes of you.Whatever you think you have me hung on have added. I've proven to myself and tons of other people that I know what I'm talking about. If you were as smart as you're trying to portray you would not have to showboat all of those credentials nor would you assume everyone around you is dumb and inexperienced.


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## KS Bow Hunter (Nov 22, 2013)

This is not a trick question. This is simple. You are now shooting a small game head, a blunt tip, even a suction cup. Which arrow hurts more when it hits?



plecavalier said:


> I would have thought an engineer with such qualifications would be accustomed to trick questions...
> 
> This was a trap. Because we have points with blades in conjunction with arrow Mass and we are not shooting blunt objects they are not equal and opposite reaction. But there is a basis for resistance as in a long slim head on an arrow that has a lot of weight will have much less resistance then and abrupt angle short head with a light Arrow.


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## jaximus (Feb 23, 2015)

KS Bow Hunter said:


> So -- Newton's 3rd Law is for every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction. Got it.
> 
> So an arrow hits a deer with a MO of .75.
> 
> ...


youre forgetting that the there is a derivative of time involved. shed the mo quickly and it 'feels' different than shedding it slowly. the higher MO arrow also will continue on theough the animal, retaining a portion. think big picture, dont get lost in numbers.


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## jaximus (Feb 23, 2015)

double post


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## KS Bow Hunter (Nov 22, 2013)

You are correct, it is a complicated equation to solve for...the more momentum you have, theoretically the arrow will move through the animal faster, seemingly with less "felt" impact depending on the time factor to decelerate which we don't know. There is some logic to a lighter arrow not passing through and leaving all of it's energy expended in the animal. I think you would want a balance, which is how I built my arrows...



jaximus said:


> youre forgetting that the there is a derivative of time involved. shed the mo quickly and it 'feels' different than shedding it slowly. the higher MO arrow also will continue on theough the animal, retaining a portion. think big picture, dont get lost in numbers.


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## plecavalier (Jan 10, 2008)

KS Bow Hunter said:


> And by the way, this is an interesting topic to me, and if you go back a few pages you will see that I fully admitted that my perception was a great drop in arrows that were heavier vs. light ones...I've never found a good online trajectory calculator but I have looked at MO and KE of my arrows and learned about it when I was getting into archery...you see, what you might think it pompous or arrogant is what us engineers do...we research and seek to understand, and we tend to want to make sense of the physics of a scenario...it is how we are wired...again sorry if I offended you...


I'm providing you the information you need to understand as you say you want to do but you are refuting the knowledge I'm providing.


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## plecavalier (Jan 10, 2008)

KS Bow Hunter said:


> This is not a trick question. This is simple. You are now shooting a small game head, a blunt tip, even a suction cup. Which arrow hurts more when it hits?


It was me providing the third law of Newton that was the trick question my friend.


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## KS Bow Hunter (Nov 22, 2013)

So again, shooting a small game blunt head - what hurts more .75 MO or .50 MO? That is a simple one sentence question with two choices. You only have to pick one answer.



plecavalier said:


> It was me providing the third law of Newton that was the trick question my friend.


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## KS Bow Hunter (Nov 22, 2013)

I'm only challenging the basics of the laws of physics...not your knowledge...



plecavalier said:


> I'm providing you the information you need to understand as you say you want to do but you are refuting the knowledge I'm providing.


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## plecavalier (Jan 10, 2008)

KS Bow Hunter said:


> I'm only challenging the basics of the laws of physics...not your knowledge...


Says the guy you called me doogie.


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## KS Bow Hunter (Nov 22, 2013)

OK, I am asking simple honest questions...in an effort to understand and have a conversation...you can take your ball and go home though if that feels better...that is your prerogative just like shooting whatever arrow you like is...have a good afternoon...



plecavalier said:


> Says the guy you called me doogie.


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## Swampwise (Sep 2, 2015)

I've gotten pass throughs on deer with 424 grain arrows even a few smaller hogs but the larger ones not so much so, which was my reason for building heavier arrows being I hog hunt all year. I was surprised to say the least when my bow began to feel different and had a very different tone. My 665 grain fly great and just plowed through the larger boars except for a couple of spine hits. The softer tone resulted in less reactions of game to the shot and the hiss of the arrow. The hiss is still their but the extra split second the softer tone provided results in less movement at impact. Hogs in my area are rarely still and really jumpy which means I don't always hit the exact spot but usually bust through any way. The results of the heavy arrow on hogs increased my range on them too. I use the same arrows deer hunting also most times. During the chasing and ruttting times things happen too fast to range before shooting so I use the advantage of my lighter 475 grain arrows, 1 pin to 35 holding low to about 25 yards when hunting a more open areas. For me anyway they both work but my preference is the heavier setup most of the time. The rainbow flight of the heavy arrow only showed when I got up to 725+ so I backed down to a pin gap that worked for me. 665 pins 20 30 40 & 50 545 grains same pin gap 25 35 45 55 475 grains same pin gap dead on at 30 40 touch high at 50 and 60. I have 3 stands that I could shoot at 50 max a couple at 40 max bust most are tight and thick hence the heavy arrow advantage, small stuff doesn't effect flight. I don't trim much and try for a clear shot which is different with heavy arrows within reason.


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## plecavalier (Jan 10, 2008)

KS Bow Hunter said:


> OK, I am asking simple honest questions...in an effort to understand and have a conversation...you can take your ball and go home though if that feels better...that is your prerogative just like shooting whatever arrow you like is...have a good afternoon...


All right it seems like we understand each other now. I'll indulge you and answer your question but I can't right now because I'm voice to text on my phone and I need to look at the specs you provided properly answer.


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## zallen1 (Jun 21, 2013)

This post is an unfortunate reflection of grown men acting like boys. There is some great research that has been conducted on high FOC setups. Penetration is one element. Arrow flight is another. We also have real world situations (many examples listed on this thread) where people have had success with a lighter set up. Fred bear killed a ton of animals with a "slow" bow in comparison to today's set ups. This was a result of an archer that understood and mastered his equipment. My passion around archery motivates me to research and pursue improvements in my own abilities and the equipment I shoot. In the end I need to be confident in my set up, whatever that is. Find the set up that gives you the most confidence and don't look back.


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## jaximus (Feb 23, 2015)

KS Bow Hunter said:


> So again, shooting a small game blunt head - what hurts more .75 MO or .50 MO? That is a simple one sentence question with two choices. You only have to pick one answer.


ill play. the .75 MO will hurt more as the blunt will (hypothetically for this scenario) stop both arrows on impact. that removes the time duration as a variable as well as distance traveled and any energy retained. full MO to zero. 

however, that is not the case for hunting whitetails as we use broadheads, very efficient simple machines. even the dreaded "chopping" "poor blade angle" mechs are remarkably efficient simple machines. add in things like cut on contact, fewer blades, thinner blades and smaller cut diameter and you see even less resistance (felt impact). hit a bone and it all goes out the window


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## Early Ice (Mar 18, 2008)

considering most new comers to this thread aren't reading all posts..... i'll repeat this...*.All arrows will kill a whitetail if hit in the rib cage*. Christ, my mom shoots a 38 lb bow with an arrow that is like 320 grains (not my doing). 

Any properly placed arrow of any weight and any broadhead will kill that deer. This isn't about the perfect shot on a deer. It's about having the momentum to break chit if need be. This is about an insurance policy. This is about having a diesel truck and never towing with it.....BUT power is COOL! 

This thread is NOT about light arrows can't kill, it's about people choosing to shoot heavy because heavy is an insurance policy just like you have on your house, boat, life, car etc etc. When bad stuff happens you are covered, or lets say, a far better chance to get through that bone and get a vital or whatever the situation may be. I been there..... period.


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## 3D Pinwheeler (Jan 29, 2007)

The issue is what broadhead to use. If you shoot a 2 blade 1" cut on contact fixed head 350 gr arrow out of a 60# 29" bow. Versus a 2" rage 650 gr. out of the same bow. Which penetrates better?
Since we're talking resistance and weight.


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## 3D Pinwheeler (Jan 29, 2007)

Early Ice said:


> considering most new comers to this thread aren't reading all posts..... i'll repeat this...*.All arrows will kill a whitetail if hit in the rib cage*. Christ, my mom shoots a 38 lb bow with an arrow that is like 320 grains (not my doing).
> 
> Any properly placed arrow of any weight and any broadhead will kill that deer. This isn't about the perfect shot on a deer. It's about having the momentum to break chit if need be. This is about an insurance policy. This is about having a diesel truck and never towing with it.....BUT power is COOL!
> 
> This thread is NOT about light arrows can't kill, it's about people choosing to shoot heavy because heavy is an insurance policy just like you have on your house, boat, life, car etc etc. When bad stuff happens you are covered. period.


Agree


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## Early Ice (Mar 18, 2008)

3D Pinwheeler said:


> The issue is what broadhead to use. If you shoot a 2 blade 1" cut on contact fixed head 350 gr arrow out of a 60# 29" bow. Versus a 2" rage 650 gr. out of the same bow. Which penetrates better?
> Since we're talking resistance and weight.


I'll take the 650 and rage (Rage, I can't believe i said that). Even though the rage will come out looking like Edward Scissor hands gone bad. But I have no idea what will penetrate better....but that is the complete opposite spectrum, i'll give you that.

You didn't specify, is that 2 blade a single bevel?? LMAO. I went there!


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## 3D Pinwheeler (Jan 29, 2007)

Early Ice said:


> I'll take the 650 and rage. Even though the rage will come out looking like Edward Scissor hands gone bad. But I have no idea what will penetrate better....but that is the complete opposite spectrum, i'll give you that.


What do you use currently?


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## plecavalier (Jan 10, 2008)

Early Ice said:


> I'll take the 650 and rage. Even though the rage will come out looking like Edward Scissor hands gone bad.


Ah! Now we're talking shop. That's exactly what I always try to get at. It's a ratio and very much a love hate relationship. Weight, speed and head MA. If you don't choose the most efficient which is heavy, fast and high MA, you must understand what you're compromising.

If that arrow was 500 instead of 350 I wouldn't hesitate to take that one. But 350 vs 650 as long as that rage doesn't fold over like a wet spaghetti you're good to get the most out of that one. But arguably the 350 will work if it's put through the ribcage IF the 1" head is 3" or more long. If it's 1:1 you couldn't pay me to shoot that head at that weight.


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## H80Hunter (Jan 23, 2016)

3D Pinwheeler said:


> The issue is what broadhead to use. If you shoot a 2 blade 1" cut on contact fixed head 350 gr arrow out of a 60# 29" bow. Versus a 2" rage 650 gr. out of the same bow. Which penetrates better?
> Since we're talking resistance and weight.


This is actually a question id love to see tested. It’s alwyss Broadhead vs Broadhead. I’d love to see a test of a 400 grain arrow with an Iron Will vs a 500 grain arrow with say an Exodus vs a 600 grain and a rage, etc.


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## plecavalier (Jan 10, 2008)

H80Hunter said:


> This is actually a question id love to see tested. It’s alwyss Broadhead vs Broadhead. I’d love to see a test of a 400 grain arrow with an Iron Will vs a 500 grain arrow with say an Exodus vs a 600 grain and a rage, etc.


You can easily do that with sand and just measure the penetration. IT obviously won't tell you how it will do in an animal but you'll see an apples to apples of their potential.


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## jaximus (Feb 23, 2015)

H80Hunter said:


> This is actually a question id love to see tested. It’s alwyss Broadhead vs Broadhead. I’d love to see a test of a 400 grain arrow with an Iron Will vs a 500 grain arrow with say an Exodus vs a 600 grain and a rage, etc.


this is the stuff i played with in my city herd control area. i didnt set it up as a test exactly, just shot different weights and heads. i didnt intentionally bonk "heavy" bone (knuckles), as the parcels are quite small, so i cant have any intentional trouble, but the shots are close and im pretty confident, so i tucked a bunch of shots in tight. ive only lost one and that was an over confident moment trying to sneak one in to break the deer down with a heavy arrow, a branch deflection, a gut punch with a small heavy duty fixed head. short shot in a tigher window than i expected and it was only not recovered due to a refusal of the land owner it expired on.


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## Early Ice (Mar 18, 2008)

3D Pinwheeler said:


> What do you use currently?


I use a 200 grain cutthroat.

To add to you question. If you said 450 grain with a 2 blade, I would take that all day long as the advantage of a 2 blade (single bevel or not) IMO far outweights the wide cut. i've shot a pile of deer in the 400-450 range w very few issues expect one time w a wasp jak hammer. arrow deflected on a rib and took a 60 degree angle back and out the pecker.


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## nightvision (Aug 30, 2011)

3D Pinwheeler said:


> The issue is what broadhead to use. If you shoot a 2 blade 1" cut on contact fixed head 350 gr arrow out of a 60# 29" bow. Versus a 2" rage 650 gr. out of the same bow. Which penetrates better?
> Since we're talking resistance and weight.


This is what I preach or suggest. Yes, heavier penetrates better. I don’t argue that. But while many are talking about the weight imo the head is the “problem”. 

In your above scenario I would say the 650 grain arrow/rage would do better but imo if you bumped the light arrows weight up to say 400 maybe 425 my guess would then change.

I know there are many people who have great success with lighter arrows and large cut expandables but I think those large expandables really shine when you have enough momentum behind them. Problem is determining exactly how much is needed.


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## jaximus (Feb 23, 2015)

nightvision said:


> This is what I preach or suggest. Yes, heavier penetrates better. I don’t argue that. But while many are talking about the weight imo the head is the “problem”.
> 
> In your above scenario I would say the 650 grain arrow/rage would do better but imo if you bumped the light arrows weight up to say 400 maybe 425 my guess would then change.
> 
> I know there are many people who have great success with lighter arrows and large cut expandables but I think those large expandables really shine when you have enough momentum behind them. Problem is determining exactly how much is needed.


combine FoC and a big mech and you have a really deadly combo


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## 3D Pinwheeler (Jan 29, 2007)

jaximus said:


> combine FoC and a big mech and you have a really deadly combo


Have you had any issues with the big mechanical breaking if too much weight is behind it?


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## nightvision (Aug 30, 2011)

roosiebull said:


> all of that is very valid to me, and within those 2 replies is why I have went to heavier than normal. super forgiving fixed head flight, quiet, good penetration (but not magical) seems to keep shot game calm.
> 
> where these threads go sideways are the extreme views highlighting the extreme benefits, that we are supposed to just believe without any evidence besides "trust me" too many lofty claims, not enough proof (to convince me you NEED a super heavy arrow in NA) of course momentum goes up with weight, so hunting the dark continent, yeah, silly heavy arrows make sense, but folks fail to realize the benefits here when the extremes are what's being emphasized, rather that the aspects that are actually6 beneficial to us.
> 
> ...


Very well written and well thought out response.

Earlier someone, maybe you, said if we are planning for worst case scenarios why not use the widest mechanical in case I hit them in the guts. There is some validity in that question. Many argue the penetration advantages of super heavy arrows but want to dismiss misjudging yardage as a nonissues while the light arrow crowd argues flatter trajectory while wanting to dismiss the advantages of better penetration of the heavier arrows. Imo, neither is right or wrong.

It all comes down to what works for you. Thick cover, Northeast, 250lb toad, Max 25 yard shot..... No Brainer. Go very heavy or go home. 

Midwest, rut time, semi open, deer zig zagging and never standing still....again, for me, No Brainer.......Faster arrow with a COC type of Exodus type head.

All of this to sell my wife on why I need 3 different bows setup for hunting.


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## 3D Pinwheeler (Jan 29, 2007)

Early Ice said:


> I use a 200 grain cutthroat.
> 
> To add to you question. If you said 450 grain with a 2 blade, I would take that all day long as the advantage of a 2 blade (single bevel or not) IMO far outweights the wide cut. i've shot a pile of deer in the 400-450 range w very few issues expect one time w a wasp jak hammer. arrow deflected on a rib and took a 60 degree angle back and out the pecker.


Lol that's why I went 350. 200 gr cutthroat ...not much stopping that I'd bet.


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

Mechanicals still don’t penetrate hard bone even with heavy arrows to any acceptable level to give a high rate of pass through’s. I talked about what had happened with these in my own field results back when I started building arrows using Ashby’s ideas here: https://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=1685182&p=1064013730#post1064013730

What a lot of you continually misinterpret and incorrectly judge is that you can fix your current setup completely by just changing one thing like the mass, or the broadhead, or the foc, etc etc... The penetration enhancing factors that Ashby suggests all work together to make the complete package better. They’re all important and the more you apply to your own builds the higher the results you’ll see. He ranks the factors in level of importance and gives tons of data as to why. More of you guys need to actually read his work and just try it instead of debating it without proof. Come back with your opinions after, it’s obvious who has and hasn’t all over this website. 


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## plecavalier (Jan 10, 2008)

henro said:


> Mechanicals still don’t penetrate hard bone even with heavy arrows to any acceptable level to give a high rate of pass through’s. I talked about what had happened with these in my own field results back when I started building arrows using Ashby’s ideas here: https://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=1685182&p=1064013730#post1064013730
> 
> What a lot of you continually misinterpret and incorrectly judge is that you can fix your current setup completely by just changing one thing like the mass, or the broadhead, or the foc, etc etc... The penetration enhancing factors that Ashby suggests all work together to make the complete package better. They’re all important and the more you apply to your own builds the higher the results you’ll see. He ranks the factors in level of importance and gives tons of data as to why. More of you guys need to actually read his work and just try it instead of debating it without proof. Come back with your opinions after, it’s obvious who has and hasn’t all over this website.
> 
> ...


It is cumulative though. I always try and encourage those taking baby steps. Otherwise you're taking a negative approach and say it needs to be all or nothing. A guy that goes from 250gn to 450/500 is a heckofalot better off even with a rage than he was prior. It's far from what I would do but...It's better.


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## jaximus (Feb 23, 2015)

plecavalier said:


> It is cumulative though. I always try and encourage those taking baby steps. Otherwise you're taking a negative approach and say it needs to be all or nothing. A guy that goes from 250gn to 450/500 is a heckofalot better off even with a rage than he was prior. It's far from what I would do but...It's better.


agree 100% 

taking steps rather than giant leaps to find a place where you are comfortable is the best way. if something doesnt go right, take another step. big jumps turn people off and come off as snobbish and we end up in battles like light vs heavy...


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## KS Bow Hunter (Nov 22, 2013)

Correct answer. Now the comments are true too, however, since there is nothing deforming in the arrow (typically) we can assume all of the energy is being transferred into the animal unless there is a complete pass through, in which case some is retained. If we are talking the same head, and both arrows pass through, then at a minimum we can assume that a similar amount of energy was transferred (same head, same path) and we can also assume that slightly more shock and energy was transferred by the arrow with more momentum since it is going slower than it's faster lighter counterpart and will spend more time cutting the same path with the same head. Now, this is only assumption, as we would need to know the exact deceleration of each arrow. However, knowing what we know, we can at a minimum assume that there is minimal difference in two arrows going at very different speeds with basically the same MO. This is basic physics. Agree or am I missing something?

If you hit bone, yes all bets are off.



jaximus said:


> ill play. the .75 MO will hurt more as the blunt will (hypothetically for this scenario) stop both arrows on impact. that removes the time duration as a variable as well as distance traveled and any energy retained. full MO to zero.
> 
> however, that is not the case for hunting whitetails as we use broadheads, very efficient simple machines. even the dreaded "chopping" "poor blade angle" mechs are remarkably efficient simple machines. add in things like cut on contact, fewer blades, thinner blades and smaller cut diameter and you see even less resistance (felt impact). hit a bone and it all goes out the window


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## jaximus (Feb 23, 2015)

KS Bow Hunter said:


> Correct answer. Now the comments are true too, however, since there is nothing deforming in the arrow (typically) we can assume all of the energy is being transferred into the animal unless there is a complete pass through, in which case some is retained. If we are talking the same head, and both arrows pass through, then at a minimum we can assume that a similar amount of energy was transferred (same head, same path) and we can also assume that slightly more shock and energy was transferred by the arrow with more momentum since it is going slower than it's faster lighter counterpart and will spend more time cutting the same path with the same head. Now, this is only assumption, as we would need to know the exact deceleration of each arrow. However, knowing what we know, we can at a minimum assume that there is minimal difference in two arrows going at very different speeds with basically the same MO. This is basic physics. Agree or am I missing something?
> 
> If you hit bone, yes all bets are off.


i believe youre confused on how this works. you ONLY should be looking at the momentum lost while passing through. since weight doesnt change, its all about velocity. thats the equal oppsoite felt by the animal. since the the lighter arrow has a higher velocity, it is met with more resistance (resistance has velocity squared in its equation), therefore slows down more, thus loses more momentum. the higher massed arrow has more inertia;harder to slow down, thus retaining its veloctiy better.


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## KS Bow Hunter (Nov 22, 2013)

I am not at all confused about how it works, I entirely understand your theory. It is a similar argument to why the tumble upon impact bullets work so well and why I use them for my son...he gets more impact out of a smaller caliber because the energy is transferred to the animal, not used in deforming the projectile. I get that.

The point I am trying to make is that the difference in two arrows moving at vastly different speeds, with the same MO is negligible. The animal sees no difference. That's because the change in velocity over time for either is so small and similar that it doesn't matter. 

Where are you guys getting a resistance equation that is a squared product in it? I need to research that because I've never used it...can you use some real numbers to illustrate your concept and theory?

Thanks man...



jaximus said:


> i believe youre confused on how this works. you ONLY should be looking at the momentum lost while passing through. since weight doesnt change, its all about velocity. thats the equal oppsoite felt by the animal. since the the lighter arrow has a higher velocity, it is met with more resistance (resistance has velocity squared in its equation), therefore slows down more, thus loses more momentum. the higher massed arrow has more inertia;harder to slow down, thus retaining its veloctiy better.


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## plecavalier (Jan 10, 2008)

KS Bow Hunter said:


> I am not at all confused about how it works, I entirely understand your theory. It is a similar argument to why the tumble upon impact bullets work so well and why I use them for my son...he gets more impact out of a smaller caliber because the energy is transferred to the animal, not used in deforming the projectile. I get that.
> 
> The point I am trying to make is that the difference in two arrows moving at vastly different speeds, with the same MO is negligible. The animal sees no difference. That's because the change in velocity over time for either is so small and similar that it doesn't matter.
> 
> ...


I'm afraid I don't agree but I also don't think you're confused. The faster arrow is met with more resistance. So yes it will "hurt" more. The one with the most fps will have an explosive effect that would hurt more on impact. But the one with the most weight will penetrate longer. It's not negligible. This has been tested and proven.

When you hit bone or dense tissue (fat, muscle cartilage) the heavier slower arrow out performs it's lighter counterpart.

The formula I gave you for resistance is in the Ashby reports in my signature. It is a leading factor in how arrows of different weights perform during penetration. What we talked about earlier regarding animal reaction and explosive vs subtle energy isn't covered anywhere that I know of. Typically when it comes to arrow weight the benefits are lower noise and increased penetration. I started studying reaction in relation to mass and talking to a lot of serious guys about it that have shot both heavy mass and light mass arrows and have all concluded the same. The reaction is hugely diminished and it's due to the decrease in resistance.


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## KS Bow Hunter (Nov 22, 2013)

Well, you really need to run the calculations comparing different arrows to come up with conclusions that are meaningful, at least for me. I agree, the arrow with MO will outperform one with less. MO is what drives the arrow through the animal. On that we agree. 

Resistance is something that is extremely difficult to calculate and measure in an organic body and I'm not sure I have confidence in Ashby's equations unless they are derived from known laws of physics (which don't change). 

At 20 yards, 2 different arrows have the following characteristics:

- 326 grain, .432 MO, 64.7 KE and 299 fps
- 580 grain, .606 MO, 71.3 KE and 235 fps

If we assume the heavier arrow loses half as much of the velocity of the lighter one through the animal, then he get the following at full pass through:

- 326 grain, exits at 249 fps, 44.8 KE and .360 MO - leaving .070 MO "in the animal"
- 580 grain, exits at 210 fps, 56.7 KE and .540 MO - leaving .066 MO "in the animal"

Essentially the same...you need to know the exit velocity to calculate this...I just used 50 fps for the lighter arrow, and 25 fps for the heavier arrow...

My point is that the difference lost is negligible unless the difference in velocity lost is substantially different which again, if we are comparing pass through to pass through, it is moot point for the most part...

On the part about quieter shots and more efficient use of the mechanical advantage of the bow, yes I agree...

We could model a bunch of different scenarios, but I'd like to understand Ashby's derived equation for resistance...that's a tough one in organic no-linear materials to model well...



plecavalier said:


> I'm afraid I don't agree but I also don't think you're confused. The faster arrow is met with more resistance. So yes it will "hurt" more. The one with the most fps will have an explosive effect that would hurt more on impact. But the one with the most weight will penetrate longer. It's not negligible. This has been tested and proven.
> 
> When you hit bone or dense tissue (fat, muscle cartilage) the heavier slower arrow out performs it's lighter counterpart.
> 
> The formula I gave you for resistance is in the Ashby reports in my signature. It is a leading factor in how arrows of different weights perform during penetration. What we talked about earlier regarding animal reaction and explosive vs subtle energy isn't covered anywhere that I know of. Typically when it comes to arrow weight the benefits are lower noise and increased penetration. I started studying reaction in relation to mass and talking to a lot of serious guys about it that have shot both heavy mass and light mass arrows and have all concluded the same. The reaction is hugely diminished and it's due to the decrease in resistance.


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## KS Bow Hunter (Nov 22, 2013)

By the way, I am a fan of optimized, since for the most part my setup will get a pass through and kill just about any North American game animal...though I may actually try out some heavier shafts at around 650 grains or better...

My setups are all 70#/30" and ironically all IBO around 321 (3 different bows). I use Easton Axis 5mm arrows with Bohning fletchings and 100 grain heads...several different types...my setup is about ~435 grains with a 13.8% FOC which could be better I suppose...


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## copterdoc (Oct 9, 2005)

Early Ice said:


> considering most new comers to this thread aren't reading all posts..... i'll repeat this...*.All arrows will kill a whitetail if hit in the rib cage*. Christ, my mom shoots a 38 lb bow with an arrow that is like 320 grains (not my doing).....


 Then why do you think it doesn't make _more_ sense, to shoot the setup that actually gives you the best chance of *hitting* and then passing-through the rib cage?

What actual benefit is there to increasing arrow weight *WAY* beyond what you actually need to get consistent pass-through penetration of your target species vitals?

Because there definitely *are* trade-offs.
Nobody is shooting NFAA or ASA with a 24" power stroke and 90# of DW.


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

KS Bow Hunter said:


> Well, you really need to run the calculations comparing different arrows to come up with conclusions that are meaningful, at least for me. I agree, the arrow with MO will outperform one with less. MO is what drives the arrow through the animal. On that we agree.
> 
> Resistance is something that is extremely difficult to calculate and measure in an organic body and I'm not sure I have confidence in Ashby's equations unless they are derived from known laws of physics (which don't change).
> 
> ...





KS Bow Hunter said:


> By the way, I am a fan of optimized, since for the most part my setup will get a pass through and kill just about any North American game animal...though I may actually try out some heavier shafts at around 650 grains or better...
> 
> My setups are all 70#/30" and ironically all IBO around 321 (3 different bows). I use Easton Axis 5mm arrows with Bohning fletchings and 100 grain heads...several different types...my setup is about ~435 grains with a 13.8% FOC which could be better I suppose...


Have you actually read Ashby’s work?


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## KS Bow Hunter (Nov 22, 2013)

Yes



henro said:


> Have you actually read Ashby’s work?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

KS Bow Hunter said:


> Yes


All of it? Your comment about you thinking your 435gr arrow will get pass throughs on anything in North America doesn’t seem like it? Have you ever shot a deer in the front knuckle or shoulder bones in general? 

The only reason I’m asking you and not the countless others in this thread who keep posting comments like that is that you seem a lot smarter and it doesn’t seem to jive with everything else you’ve said. I figured you’d get that. 

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## copterdoc (Oct 9, 2005)

There is no _good_ reason to ever shoot a Whitetail in the front knuckle, or shoulder bones in general.
Those bones cover up just a tiny fraction of its vitals, on a broadside shot.


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## KS Bow Hunter (Nov 22, 2013)

Yes, and I said that could kill anything in NA, not get a pass through on a bull moose...but a well placed shot, which is all I will take, yes, the 435 grain moving at 291 leaving my bow with a good head is sufficient...maybe not optimal, but for GA deer it is more than sufficient...and no I have not hit one in the shoulder...but like I said earlier, hitting bone is a totally different discussion...it doesn't change the physics of how an arrow acts on pass through which is what I thought we were discussing...

I'd like to see some actual calculations to support that a faster arrow actually delivers more shock to the animal, all things being equal...on a pass through I am not sure I see the argument, and when you do hit bone, the arrow with more momentum is going to shock more than the one with less...



henro said:


> All of it? Your comment about you thinking your 435gr arrow will get pass throughs on anything in North America doesn’t seem like it? Have you ever shot a deer in the front knuckle or shoulder bones in general?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

copterdoc said:


> There is no _good_ reason to ever shoot a Whitetail in the front knuckle, or shoulder bones in general.
> Those bones cover up just a tiny fraction of its vitals, on a broadside shot.


Misses happen and that’s the point, to be prepared for the worst but to expect the best outcome no matter what: 2 holes and a complete pass through= dead deer. 


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## plecavalier (Jan 10, 2008)

KS Bow Hunter said:


> Well, you really need to run the calculations comparing different arrows to come up with conclusions that are meaningful, at least for me. I agree, the arrow with MO will outperform one with less. MO is what drives the arrow through the animal. On that we agree.
> 
> Resistance is something that is extremely difficult to calculate and measure in an organic body and I'm not sure I have confidence in Ashby's equations unless they are derived from known laws of physics (which don't change).
> 
> ...


Your statement on pass through is why Ashby tested on water buffalo as opposed to smaller large game animals. People typically misinterpret why he did that. So I totally agree two pass throughs doesn't matter at all what the characteristics of the arrows were. It's moot.

What interests me is when they don't pass through. At some point one will while the other won't. Now what I eluded to earlier(this morning so it's pretty far back) is an attempt to put a number to how much difference one makes over another specifically relating to the velocity/mass relationship. Personal I don't really care to compare 350/70 to 650/70. What I want to try and decipher is when you reduce arrow velocity and and/or draw weight, how much weight should you add to match what you had before. I can easily do the math to get slugs-ft/sec but there isn't a formula to actually determine penetration because it must incorporate resistance.

Also, most of us realize any sort of test environment is not equal to an animal. I don't care about testing on real animals I feel confident deciphering results from practical test and applying them to real hunting. For example if one arrow penetrates more in sand than another I have confidence it should do better than the other arrow in an animal as well. I don't have many unlimited amount of animals (or time for that matter) to perform testing to satisfy the likes of those who will dismiss results on Mon live animals. For what it's with those people are likely to dismiss any test. On the other hand some testing like the reaction testing I referred to must be done on live animals and will take many years to complete. I'm fine with that too but it isn't necessarily in many cases.


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## copterdoc (Oct 9, 2005)

If you have a setup that can consistently get pass-through penetration of a Whitetail's Humerus, (or both of them), you might as well aim for the pelvis instead.
Because that'd be just as deadly, as aiming for the shoulder knuckle. And it's a much bigger target.


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## plecavalier (Jan 10, 2008)

KS Bow Hunter said:


> Yes, and I said that could kill anything in NA, not get a pass through on a bull moose...but a well placed shot, which is all I will take, yes, the 435 grain moving at 291 leaving my bow with a good head is sufficient...maybe not optimal, but for GA deer it is more than sufficient...and no I have not hit one in the shoulder...but like I said earlier, hitting bone is a totally different discussion...it doesn't change the physics of how an arrow acts on pass through which is what I thought we were discussing...
> 
> I'd like to see some actual calculations to support that a faster arrow actually delivers more shock to the animal, all things being equal...on a pass through I am not sure I see the argument, and when you do hit bone, the arrow with more momentum is going to shock more than the one with less...


Any hit on bone and achieving a low reaction is out the door. That's doesn't matter because the premise is to avoid bone buy be prepared for it so that is also a moot point. The best placement is center double lung which if you're real lucky you'll pass through the ribs. However even with ribs being hit the reaction with a heavier slower arrow with a 3:1 head (combination) is intended and does minimize the reaction. Even on pass through. So that means finding a deer under 50 or possibly way beyond. When an alert deer braces himself to jump he stores oxygen which allows for up to an additional 30 seconds of life (on a mature full size deer). At full Sprint (versus low reaction) can be several hundred yards. But now we're getting all the way back to bow noise and animal state of mind which is before penetration so I digress...


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## plecavalier (Jan 10, 2008)

copterdoc said:


> If you have a setup that can consistently get pass-through penetration of a Whitetail's Humerus, (or both of them), you might as well aim for the pelvis instead.
> Because that'd be just as deadly, as aiming for the shoulder knuckle. And it's a much bigger target.


That's true. I agree 100%. I've actually had this discussion before. However, it is considered unethical.


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## copterdoc (Oct 9, 2005)

Aww, you unblocked me.


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## plecavalier (Jan 10, 2008)

copterdoc said:


> Aww, you unblocked me.


You have to behave for at least 3 days for that to happen  it's a toggle. I didn't unblock you. Yet...


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

KS Bow Hunter said:


> Yes, and I said that could kill anything in NA, not get a pass through on a bull moose...but a well placed shot, which is all I will take, yes, the 435 grain moving at 291 leaving my bow with a good head is sufficient...maybe not optimal, but for GA deer it is more than sufficient...and no I have not hit one in the shoulder...but like I said earlier, hitting bone is a totally different discussion...it doesn't change the physics of how an arrow acts on pass through which is what I thought we were discussing...
> 
> I'd like to see some actual calculations to support that a faster arrow actually delivers more shock to the animal, all things being equal...on a pass through I am not sure I see the argument, and when you do hit bone, the arrow with more momentum is going to shock more than the one with less...


So you never hit one in the shoulder. Got it. Lemme know when you do. 

There’s never a guarantee on a well-placed shot unless you can read a deer’s mind and tell them to sit still and control all the other variables in yourself, the woods, the weather, etc that can alter your shot. 

You can’t count out the possibility of hard bone-impact until you can do that. The rest of your talk about physics is useless because it ignores this fact. It’s like saying I know I’ll survive this ride home with my seatbelt off and no airbags if I don’t happen to get into an accident. 


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## KS Bow Hunter (Nov 22, 2013)

Thanks. I will let you know when I do...and what you are saying is that I will not kill a deer with my setup? 70#/30" 435 grains, 13.8% FOC and normally shots inside 25 yards? Huh. I better go back to rifle hunting only...



henro said:


> So you never hit one in the shoulder. Got it. Lemme know when you do.
> 
> There’s never a guarantee on a well-placed shot unless you can read a deer’s mind and tell them to sit still and control all the other variables in yourself, the woods, the weather, etc that can alter your shot.
> 
> ...


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

KS Bow Hunter said:


> Thanks. I will let you know when I do...and what you are saying is that I will not kill a deer with my setup? 70#/30" 435 grains, 13.8% FOC and normally shots inside 25 yards? Huh. I better go back to rifle hunting only...


I’ve killed plenty of deer with the same type of setups, before I realized after sticking one or two in the shoulder that there was a lot to improve upon. Have you tried hunting with a heavy setup? If you’re not one of the guys who needs to shoot 100yds and you only take 25yd shots why wouldn’t you want to increase your penetration potential?


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## BigFish7 (Oct 19, 2017)

plecavalier said:


> roosiebull said:
> 
> 
> > just poor lead into an aluminum arrow, get a whole bunch of weight in the form of foc (as long as you dump the lead in the right end
> ...


Go on www.jensnetcraft.com and get a Hot Pot II, it’s what I use for making lead heads in fishing. Never made them in a rain storm, but never had any trouble melting lead. The Pot is made for precision pouring so it would work perfectly.


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## plecavalier (Jan 10, 2008)

KS Bow Hunter said:


> Thanks. I will let you know when I do...and what you are saying is that I will not kill a deer with my setup? 70#/30" 435 grains, 13.8% FOC and normally shots inside 25 yards? Huh. I better go back to rifle hunting only...


No, what he said was you're arrow setup and most of what you're discussing assumes the premise of being successful at shot placement. Do you really think 70#/30" 435 grains, 13.8% FOC will make it through a leg bone and survive enough to get to a vital organ and cause the necessary damage to bring on death? There is never a guarantee but there sure are odds. What are the odds of getting the shot placement you're banking on? What are the odds of getting the kill with the arrow you built when you do hit bone? If you say even as low as 10% well, that's still 10 deer out of 100. Many guys on here will do that within 10 years. That's a deer every year lost just because the arrow wasn't built to get through bone. That's how we look at things.


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## copterdoc (Oct 9, 2005)

KS Bow Hunter said:


> ...and what you are saying is that I will not kill a deer with my setup? 70#/30" 435 grains, 13.8% FOC and normally shots inside 25 yards?...


 That's not what he's saying and you know it.

While I don't agree with Henro on what's likely the most effective setup for hunting Whitetails, your assertion is a strawman argument.


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## plecavalier (Jan 10, 2008)

BigFish7 said:


> Go on www.jensnetcraft.com and get a Hot Pot II, it’s what I use for making lead heads in fishing. Never made them in a rain storm, but never had any trouble melting lead. The Pot is made for precision pouring so it would work perfectly.


Thanks! You're link didn't' come up but I'm assuming you mean this?
https://www.basspro.com/shop/en/hot-pot-ii-lead-melting-pot

What I meant earlier was that I intended to pour the molten lead into sand (geez I'm always talking about sand lately...) and was told if there's any humidity in it it would mean bad news.


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

copterdoc said:


> That's not what he's saying and you know it.
> 
> While I don't agree with Henro on what's likely the most effective setup for hunting Whitetails, your assertion is a strawman argument.


Holy ****!

https://media3.giphy.com/media/3ohzdHTRma0rk5pgJi/giphy.gif

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## copterdoc (Oct 9, 2005)

roosiebull said:


> just poor lead into an aluminum arrow, get a whole bunch of weight in the form of foc (as long as you dump the lead in the right end:wink small lead pots are pretty cheap...


There's a big problem with this.

350 deg F is enough temperature to affect the temper (heat treatment) of almost every aluminum alloy.
The melting point of lead is 621.4 deg F.

You literally cannot pour molten lead into an aluminum shaft, without destroying its temper.


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## jaximus (Feb 23, 2015)

henro said:


> So you never hit one in the shoulder. Got it. Lemme know when you do.
> 
> There’s never a guarantee on a well-placed shot unless you can read a deer’s mind and tell them to sit still and control all the other variables in yourself, the woods, the weather, etc that can alter your shot.
> 
> ...


this is why this is no best setup and these discussions likely will never go anywhere. the heavy bone breakers all say the deer turns and you bonk the knuckle. the light fast guys argue trajectory and big mechs where a bad shot is a plunk to the guts and that deer taking off like a raped ape spills the beans faster. both have merit. 

hit that light arrow bug mech in the shoulder and youre SOL. put that heavy arrow with a little tough head through the paunch and good luck finding it. 

my favorite part of ashbys reports was 'using dye' to see the 'tiny slices' caused by a single bevel in intestines. you dont need dye to see a rage hole in intestines...


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## roosiebull (Oct 3, 2010)

copterdoc said:


> There's a big problem with this.
> 
> 350 deg F is enough temperature to affect the temper (heat treatment) of almost every aluminum alloy.
> The melting point of lead is 621.4 deg F.
> ...


only one way to find out what impacts it will have.... aluminum shafts are cheap....


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## cooperjd (Aug 18, 2009)

man, this is a lot of stuff to read through!

I have not seen something brought up yet that i would like to address. It was in the ranch fairy's video somewhere he did on animals moving.

OK, we all know that a 425gr arrow in a broadside whitetail's ribs will kill the deer. got it.

One argument is that under 20 yards or so and an arrow of somewhere around 290 fps, or at least one that will arrive in 0.15 seconds or so (or whatever that number was)...that the deer "CANNOT" duck out of the way.

So this is leading people to shoot lighter arrows for the higher velocity to negate a deer's ability to jump the string, on shots inside 20y or so.

ok... Here is my issue with that thought process...

Let's say, for the sake of argument, that the deer in actuality cannot jump the string enough to cause a miss at those short distances. However, that is NOT to say the deer cannot start to move before the arrow gets there. So, great, your super fast lightweight arrow got to the deer as they are loading their legs and the chest is heading towards the floor....

Now, the way I see it, you have a different problem. How are you going to get that light arrow THROUGH the deer, while it is moving in a direction dang near perpendicular to the path of your arrow? What kills an arrow's momentum (transfer of energy, use whatever term suits you) faster than anything? Forces that take it away from it's line of travel. I.e. a moving deer.

This is where i see the real benefit to a heavier arrow, and also a super quiet bow. As deadquiet has been preaching for a long time, the TYPE of noise is significant. Even as troy's videos suggest almost all animals move at least a little in the reaction to the noise of the shot. I believe that a quiet bow generates less of a "freak out" type reaction than a super loud one does. I have shot next to people that are chasing that magical 300 fps out of their hunting rig and it's like someone brought a .22 to the archery range. I actually thought one guy dry fired his bow, but it was just that dang loud.

anyway, this is one more aspect of why i believe a heavier arrow is a winner. More mass to try and keep moving forward to get through the lungs of a moving target.

carry on.


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## copterdoc (Oct 9, 2005)

roosiebull said:


> only one way to find out what impacts it will have.... aluminum shafts are cheap....


The heat treatment is critical for strength.
If you ruin that, you might as well roll up some aluminum foil and call it an arrow shaft.


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## cooperjd (Aug 18, 2009)

roosiebull said:


> only one way to find out what impacts it will have.... aluminum shafts are cheap....


in my heavy arrows i have the black eagle half-outs. they taper outward toward the point end. i wanted to see if i could heat the end of my aluminum footers over the gas stove so i could slide footer to the very end of the half-out. It did not take much heat on that flame to destroy that piece of aluminum. no way i'd be pouring lead down an al shaft.


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

jaximus said:


> this is why this is no best setup and these discussions likely will never go anywhere. the heavy bone breakers all say the deer turns and you bonk the knuckle. the light fast guys argue trajectory and big mechs where a bad shot is a plunk to the guts and that deer taking off like a raped ape spills the beans faster. both have merit.
> 
> hit that light arrow bug mech in the shoulder and youre SOL. put that heavy arrow with a little tough head through the paunch and good luck finding it.
> 
> my favorite part of ashbys reports was 'using dye' to see the 'tiny slices' caused by a single bevel in intestines. you dont need dye to see a rage hole in intestines...


You do understand that Ashby was showing that the single bevel head rotates and continuously cuts as it passes through the intestines or any part of the cavity making numerous holes right? What part of that is bad? This is a function that doesn’t use impact energy to create more damage and blood loss. 

More people lose gut shot deer from pushing them or not understanding how to track them than anything. It’s a fatal shot with any head, the deer just needs time to perspire. 


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## cooperjd (Aug 18, 2009)

henro said:


> the deer just needs time to *perspire*.


I do enjoy a sweaty deer


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## plecavalier (Jan 10, 2008)

cooperjd said:


> man, this is a lot of stuff to read through!
> 
> I have not seen something brought up yet that i would like to address. It was in the ranch fairy's video somewhere he did on animals moving.
> 
> ...


I don't blame you one but due to the amount of posts but I did state exactly that. Obviously, I would agree 100%. Odds and timing dictate your outcome...or one could call it "causality". Hehe.


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## cooperjd (Aug 18, 2009)

plecavalier said:


> I don't blame you one but due to the amount of posts but I did state exactly that. Obviously, I would agree 100%. Odds and timing dictate your outcome...or one could call it "causality". Hehe.


crap, sorry man. totally missed that. i tried to read through everything but obv i missed some stuff.


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## KS Bow Hunter (Nov 22, 2013)

copterdoc said:


> That's not what he's saying and you know it.
> 
> While I don't agree with Henro on what's likely the most effective setup for hunting Whitetails, your assertion is a strawman argument.


That wasn’t a straw man it’s how I read his comment. That with my setup I will not take a deer if I make a marginal shot on a shoulder. I’m not sure that’s the case on GA deer inside the ranges I’m at but we will see if it happens. I realize that there are an infinite amount of variables that drive what happens at the shot. 


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

cooperjd said:


> I do enjoy a sweaty deer


Lmao wasn’t even looking when I typed that! Meant expire lol. 


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## plecavalier (Jan 10, 2008)

henro said:


> You do understand that Ashby was showing that the single bevel head rotates and continuously cuts as it passes through the intestines or any part of the cavity making numerous holes right? What part of that is bad? This is a function that doesn’t use impact energy to create more damage and blood loss.
> 
> More people lose gut shot deer from pushing them or not understanding how to track them than anything. It’s a fatal shot with any head, the deer just needs time to perspire.
> 
> ...


There is also zero data supporting a wider cut through the guts decreases time of death. Not to.mentiom, a 1" single bevel tyt rotates full round makes 2" worth of cut width. To some degree a 1" Ashby will do equal amount of damage to the guts as a 2" rage. But again, we've hit a moot point boys. I'm not proud of it but I've gut shot deer with a rifle more than a few times. To the point where Ive Found the whole stomach and half the small intestine on the ground and I'm still chasing him! You think your 2" range makes a difference? Maybe but not likely.


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## copterdoc (Oct 9, 2005)

cooperjd said:


> .....Let's say, for the sake of argument, that the deer in actuality cannot jump the string enough to cause a miss at those short distances. However, that is NOT to say the deer cannot start to move before the arrow gets there. So, great, your super fast lightweight arrow got to the deer as they are loading their legs and the chest is heading towards the floor....


 It doesn't take a "super fast lightweight arrow" to beat a deer's reaction time.



cooperjd said:


> .........Now, the way I see it, you have a different problem. How are you going to get that light arrow THROUGH the deer, while it is moving in a direction dang near perpendicular to the path of your arrow? What kills an arrow's momentum (transfer of energy, use whatever term suits you) faster than anything? Forces that take it away from it's line of travel. I.e. a moving deer.


Unless the deer's head is down at the time it initially reacts to the shot, it cannot move down faster than it is accelerated by Gravity.
Which happens to be 32.1705 FPS per second.

They aren't "loading their legs" until after they have stopped free falling, and begin to rebound.

It takes .25 seconds for a deer to drop 12" (after the initial reaction time of .15 seconds) At which time it will be moving down at a rate of about 8 FPS.


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## jaximus (Feb 23, 2015)

henro said:


> You do understand that Ashby was showing that the single bevel head rotates and continuously cuts as it passes through the intestines or any part of the cavity making numerous holes right? What part of that is bad? This is a function that doesn’t use impact energy to create more damage and blood loss.
> 
> More people lose gut shot deer from pushing them or not understanding how to track them than anything. It’s a fatal shot with any head, the deer just needs time to perspire.
> 
> ...


yes i understand he was trying to show that the head rotates as it goes through the animal. contexually he was also trying to convey that it does more drastically damage than it really does. 

"this is also a function that doesn't use impact energy" is incorrect. it does use impact energy. without the forward motion of the arrow, there is no rotation. resistance on the bevel is what induces the rotation, a resistance that is not present in as great of magnitude on a double bevel. there is no "free lunch." the rotational force from a single bevel creates a multi directional disturbance to bone, requiring less energy to overcome its tensility(split it) than a double bevel or trocar style, but it does create more friction in soft tissue, albeit a small amount.


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## loujo61 (Apr 29, 2005)

plecavalier said:


> There is also zero data supporting a wider cut through the guts decreases time of death. Not to.mentiom, a 1" single bevel tyt rotates full round makes 2" worth of cut width. To some degree a 1" Ashby will do equal amount of damage to the guts as a 2" rage. But again, we've hit a moot point boys. I'm not proud of it but I've gut shot deer with a rifle more than a few times. To the point where Ive Found the whole stomach and half the small intestine on the ground and I'm still chasing him! You think your 2" range makes a difference? Maybe but not likely.


Twice the amount of cut in the guts sure makes more difference than your 650 grain slow moving arrow does in penetrating large bones... At least with the larger cut you have more of a chance of hitting something vital.


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

loujo61 said:


> Twice the amount of cut in the guts sure makes more difference than your 650 grain magic arrow in large bones...


That was a really informative and well thought out post. Thanks for contributing. 


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

jaximus said:


> yes i understand he was trying to show that the head rotates as it goes through the animal. contexually he was also trying to convey that it does more drastically damage than it really does.
> 
> "this is also a function that doesn't use impact energy" is incorrect. it does use impact energy. without the forward motion of the arrow, there is no rotation. resistance on the bevel is what induces the rotation, a resistance that is not present in as great of magnitude on a double bevel. there is no "free lunch." the rotational force from a single bevel creates a multi directional disturbance to bone, requiring less energy to overcome its tensility(split it) than a double bevel or trocar style, but it does create more friction in soft tissue, albeit a small amount.


That’s your opinion that the single bevel doesn’t do “drastically more damage than he conveys”. How can you prove that?


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## loujo61 (Apr 29, 2005)

henro said:


> That was a really informative and well thought out post. Thanks for contributing.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Just trying to paint the correct picture here. Obviously you take away energy when you take away speed, there is a trade off, for Phil to argue like he does and glorify his slow azz arrow so much then to say that twice the cut in the guts doesn't matter needs to be pointed out.


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## loujo61 (Apr 29, 2005)

henro said:


> That’s your opinion that the single bevel doesn’t do “drastically more damage than he conveys”. How can you prove that?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Prove that it does.


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

loujo61 said:


> Just trying to paint the correct picture here. Obviously you take away energy when you take away speed, there is a trade off, for Phil to argue like he does and glorify his slow azz arrow so much then to say that twice the cut in the guts doesn't matter needs to be pointed out.


You’re not taking away energy when you take away speed when it’s the result of more mass being added. That’s higher penetration potential being added in more momentum. How can you not understand this basic concept? 

https://media.giphy.com/media/4up3aiyLlAxb2/giphy.gif



loujo61 said:


> Prove that it does.


It’s in Ashby’s work. He literally has pictures posted that jaximus is referencing?


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## loujo61 (Apr 29, 2005)

henro said:


> You’re not taking away energy when you take away speed when it’s the result of more mass being added. That’s higher penetration potential being added in more momentum. How can you not understand this basic concept?
> 
> https://media.giphy.com/media/4up3aiyLlAxb2/giphy.gif
> 
> ...


How can you not understand how twice the cutting surface works? 

My buddy shoots a 465 grain arrow with a VPA three blade COC out of his well tuned bow @290 fps, I'd say that's a much better deer sized bone breaker than that slow azz 650 tank that Phil and Dr shoots.


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

loujo61 said:


> How can you not understand how twice the cutting surface works? My buddy shoots a 465 grain with a VPA three blade out of his well tuned bow @290 fps, I'd say that's a much better deer sized bone breaker than that slow azz 650 tank that Phil shoots.


Lol you sure are a smart one. You must be related to crankn. 


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## loujo61 (Apr 29, 2005)

henro said:


> Lol you sure are a smart one. You must be related to crankn.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I have to be smart I don't hunt over a corn pile in Jersey.


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

loujo61 said:


> I have to be smart I don't hunt over a corn pile in Jersey.


Is that why you switched to a crossbow then?


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## loujo61 (Apr 29, 2005)

henro said:


> Is that why you switched to a crossbow then?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I didn't switch i just added the crossbow because NY added it, i shoot rifle too.


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## jaximus (Feb 23, 2015)

henro said:


> That’s your opinion that the single bevel doesn’t do “drastically more damage than he conveys”. How can you prove that?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


have you played with the spiral wound channels and measured them?

i went back and checked my notes and flung a couple arrows to see again. from my notes i had 120degrees per foot of rotation from a 1 1/8" helix, not sure on the bevel. when measured thats 12.125" of total cut length when "uncoiled." so a total wound channel gain of 1/8" per foot for that 120 degrees of rotation. a far cry from any drastic benefit. 

i just dont see the benefit of a smaller head and no bleeders for that in terms of touting a wound channel... sure, single bevels break bones, but lets leave it at that


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

jaximus said:


> have you played with the spiral wound channels and measured them?
> 
> i went back and checked my notes and flung a couple arrows to see again. from my notes i had 120degrees per foot of rotation from a 1 1/8" helix, not sure on the bevel. when measured thats 12.125" of total cut length when "uncoiled." so a total wound channel gain of 1/8" per foot for that 120 degrees of rotation. a far cry from any drastic benefit.
> 
> i just dont see the benefit of a smaller head and no bleeders for that in terms of touting a wound channel... sure, single bevels break bones, but lets leave it at that


How is that a far cry when you take into account the fact that it’s cutting in a rotational path and hitting more veins/intestinal lining than it would’ve in a straight line. Ashby describes this being similar to twirling up spaghetti with a fork. There’s no way to draw a clear measurement for comparison’s sake as different heads rotate faster or slower based on their bevel angle and blade length and also the media being impacted has great effect on this and no one standard is fair for all but I’ll take the spinning continuous cut all day. This benefit along with the bone splitting ability of a single bevel is all win-win in my book. I know it’s not gonna fail to open or break on impact like so many different mechanicals have. It will also take less energy to penetrate on one single cutting plane vs 2 for a 4-blade head or worse 3 on a 3-blade head. 


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## loujo61 (Apr 29, 2005)

jaximus said:


> have you played with the spiral wound channels and measured them?
> 
> i went back and checked my notes and flung a couple arrows to see again. from my notes i had 120degrees per foot of rotation from a 1 1/8" helix, not sure on the bevel. when measured thats 12.125" of total cut length when "uncoiled." so a total wound channel gain of 1/8" per foot for that 120 degrees of rotation. a far cry from any drastic benefit.
> 
> i just dont see the benefit of a smaller head and no bleeders for that in terms of touting a wound channel... sure, single bevels break bones, but lets leave it at that


My expandables have an off set so they must have some rotation too.


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## copterdoc (Oct 9, 2005)

I agree with jaximus. 
The whole "spiral wound channel" theory actually is pretty weak.

It's like the argument about helical fletching somehow "stabilizing" an arrow through gyroscopic precession, like a rifle bullet.
The average high-powered rifle bullet, is spinning between 150,000 and 300,000 RPM.


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## plecavalier (Jan 10, 2008)

cooperjd said:


> crap, sorry man. totally missed that. i tried to read through everything but obv i missed some stuff.


It's all good man. That's why I said I don't blame you. But it is REALLY important and something that is constantly overlooked when discussing reaction. It's what I call the animals trigger time. In other words, when does the .15 start? It most certainly will not coincide with the exact moment a guy pulls the trigger. If we're lucky it is significantly enough after the launch of the arrow and we win the race. If the deer is alert and it isn't...game over. Or it can be as simple as a squirrel making a noise or a leaf falling...etc. 0.25 before you lose the string. You're brain might even yell STOP! but your finger won't. In fact as good archers we train our brain to go "offline" during the shot sequence in order to have a clean release. Therefore you're not stopping that shot.

I've mentioned this a lot. In fact I can say it's been well over a year since I started talking about this aspect when discussing reaction time. But no one has ever grasped what I was getting at. I'm glad someone finally had a lights on moment


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

copterdoc said:


> I agree with jaximus.
> The whole "spiral wound channel" theory actually is pretty weak.
> 
> It's like the argument about helical fletching somehow "stabilizing" an arrow like a rifle bullet.
> The average high-powered rifle bullet, is spinning between 150,000 and 300,000 RPM.


What theory? It’s not a myth. The blade literally rotates as it passes through the target as the media it’s impacting presses against the single bevel on each blade side causing it to rotate. 

Now you’re going to argue that helical fletching doesn’t do anything either? Lol I think I’ve had enough. 


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## jaximus (Feb 23, 2015)

henro said:


> How is that a far cry when you take into account the fact that it’s cutting in a rotational path and hitting more veins/intestinal lining than it would’ve in a straight line. Ashby describes this being similar to twirling up spaghetti with a fork. There’s no way to draw a clear measurement for comparison’s sake as different heads rotate faster or slower based on their bevel angle and blade length and also the media being impacted has great effect on this and no one standard is fair for all but I’ll take the spinning continuous cut all day. This benefit along with the bone splitting ability of a single bevel is all win-win in my book. I know it’s not gonna fail to open or break on impact like so many different mechanicals have. It will also take less energy to penetrate on one single cutting place vs 2 for a 4-blade head or worse 3 on a 3-blade head.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


yes, different bevels and designs spin slower or faster. that particular one, from its rotation only gained the equivalent of 1/8" of cut length per foot. to get that, its giving up cut width or the ability to have bleeders. both of which would drastically out do the spiral gains. so on soft tissue, single bevels are the worst choice. 

theres always talk of mechanical failure, sure hope you use a trad bow only, no compound, no drop away... yes? all joking aside, theres a degree of "setting yourself up" for failure when it comes to things. as you increase energy in your setup, you increase the potential for failure, roosie and i have talked about this and he experienced it as well. too light and too fast and they mech blades cant handle the shock from the abrupt stop. too heavy and the blades cant hold up to the continuous momentum. somewhere in the middle they perform as designed.


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## Rg176bnc (Dec 13, 2004)

33 pages and 1 impressive picture albeit on a southern deer.


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## copterdoc (Oct 9, 2005)

plecavalier said:


> It's all good man. That's why I said I don't blame you. But it is REALLY important and something that is constantly overlooked when discussing reaction. It's what I call the animals trigger time. In other words, when does the .15 start? It most certainly will not coincide with the exact moment a guy pulls the trigger.


 The .15 second reaction time starts the instant the animal senses the stimulus that initiates the reaction to flee.

Contrary to popular belief, I do not think that this is usually an auditory stimulus, but rather a visual one.

It's pretty much impossible to dump the string without *rapidly* moving most of your upper body.
Just watch the shooters at the line of any archery event. They *move* when the string leaves the release!

A Whitetail's field of view is over 300 degrees. Unless it's eyes are obstructed from your view, it *saw* you move when you dumped the string.

For that reason, I don't count the speed of sound into my estimation of what I can get away with.
I assume that the deer is going to receive the stimulus to flee at the speed of light.


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## plecavalier (Jan 10, 2008)

loujo61 said:


> How can you not understand how twice the cutting surface works?
> 
> My buddy shoots a 465 grain arrow with a VPA three blade COC out of his well tuned bow @290 fps, I'd say that's a much better deer sized bone breaker than that slow azz 650 tank that Phil and Dr shoots.


You conveniently left out the part where I explain that I witnessed a stomach and small intestine on the ground and was still chasing said deer. So you think you're 2" cut is going to make a difference? That bullet was a 160gn nosler partition. When it came out the other side is was close to 4" wide.


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## plecavalier (Jan 10, 2008)

copterdoc said:


> The .15 second reaction time starts the instant the animal senses the stimulus that initiates the reaction to flee.
> 
> Contrary to popular belief, I do not think that this is usually an auditory stimulus, but rather a visual one.
> 
> ...


Exactly. So how is it you're still saying you can beat that reaction? Might be easier to shoot when the deer isn't looking to avoid said reaction in the first place.


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## loujo61 (Apr 29, 2005)

plecavalier said:


> You conveniently left out the part where I explain that I witnessed a stomach and small intestine on the ground and was still chasing said deer. So you think you're 2" cut is going to make a difference? That bullet was a 160gn nosler partition. When it came out the other side is was close to 4" wide.


Yes of course just like the your guts on the ground did, the more function you take away the quicker they die, those deer need those guts to survive.


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## copterdoc (Oct 9, 2005)

henro said:


> What theory? It’s not a myth. The blade literally rotates as it passes through the target as the media it’s impacting presses against the single bevel on each blade side causing it to rotate.
> 
> Now you’re going to argue that helical fletching doesn’t do anything either? Lol I think I’ve had enough.
> 
> ...


 I didn't say that a helical fletching doesn't do anything. I use helical fletchings.
But they do not stabilize the arrow through gyroscopic precession.

And you're right that I shouldn't have called "spiral wound channel" a theory. 
At best, it's only a hypothesis.


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## copterdoc (Oct 9, 2005)

plecavalier said:


> Exactly. So how is it you're still saying you can beat that reaction? Might be easier to shoot when the deer isn't looking to avoid said reaction in the first place.


If my arrow reaches the deer within .2 seconds of when I sent it, that deer ain't doing *ANYTHING* that can change where I hit it.


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

copterdoc said:


> I didn't say that a helical fletching doesn't do anything. I use helical fletchings.
> But they do not stabilize the arrow through gyroscopic precession.
> 
> And you're right that I shouldn't have called "spiral wound channel" a theory.
> At best, it's only a hypothesis.





copterdoc said:


> If my arrow reaches the deer within .2 seconds of when I sent it, that deer ain't doing *ANYTHING* that can change where I hit it.


This... All of this... I’m just in amazement... 


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## copterdoc (Oct 9, 2005)

henro said:


> This... All of this... I’m just in amazement...
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


If you disagree with it, make your case.

Fletchings only work if there's an atmosphere.
.2 seconds doesn't give a deer enough time to react and move enough to make my arrow miss.

Those are pretty simple statements to defend scientifically.


----------



## roosiebull (Oct 3, 2010)

henro said:


> You’re not taking away energy when you take away speed when it’s the result of more mass being added. That’s higher penetration potential being added in more momentum. How can you not understand this basic concept?
> 
> https://media.giphy.com/media/4up3aiyLlAxb2/giphy.gif
> 
> ...


I could find pics to show anything I’m trying to push, pics show it has happened, but pics don’t show if things reliably happen, that’s where it loses me. I do like heavy arrows, but not for their bone crushing capability


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## plecavalier (Jan 10, 2008)

roosiebull said:


> I could find pics to show anything I’m trying to push, pics show it has happened, but pics don’t show if things reliably happen, that’s where it loses me. I do like heavy arrows, but not for their bone crushing capability


We all know my position on these topics but that's a point worth noting in this day and age!


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## Fortyneck (Oct 8, 2010)

copterdoc said:


> If my arrow reaches the deer within .2 seconds of when I sent it, that deer ain't doing *ANYTHING* that can change where I hit it.


I'm trying to understand this... Does this mean you shoot lighter arrows the farther away a deer is from you? Or are you increasing the draw weight if the deer is farther? :confused3:


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## plecavalier (Jan 10, 2008)

Fortyneck said:


> I'm trying to understand this... Does this mean you shoot lighter arrows the farther away a deer is from you? Or are you increasing the draw weight if the deer is farther? :confused3:


That's pretty funny!

But I think he's saying the .2 dictates his effective range.


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## copterdoc (Oct 9, 2005)

Fortyneck said:


> I'm trying to understand this... Does this mean you shoot lighter arrows the farther away a deer is from you? Or are you increasing the draw weight if the deer is farther? :confused3:


At one time, I hunted with a 380 grain arrow at 315 FPS. I've also hunted with 600 grain arrows, at well under 200 FPS.
I've made several adjustments over the years to get to where I am now.

I've dropped a couple inches of power stroke, and several pounds of draw weight.
Because, the fact is that I'm just way more accurate when I'm not "overbowed".

I really do think that 270 FPS is a number that most people can easily achieve. And it's worth it if you can.
But I wouldn't go nuts trying for much more than that. Or much more than 400 grains in arrow weight.

Not for Whitetails anyway.


----------



## Fortyneck (Oct 8, 2010)

plecavalier said:


> That's pretty funny!
> 
> But I think he's saying the .2 dictates his effective range.





copterdoc said:


> At one time, I hunted with a 380 grain arrow at 315 FPS. I've also hunted with 600 grain arrows, at well under 200 FPS.
> I've made several adjustments over the years to get to where I am now.
> 
> I've dropped a couple inches of power stroke, and several pounds of draw weight.
> ...


I get it, but your arrow will only reach the deer in .2 sec. at a set distance for any given bow/arrow/fps combination.


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## KS Bow Hunter (Nov 22, 2013)

Hairs. 

Everyone should practice shooting at hairs. 

Single hairs. 

And when we can split those hairs like 99.9% of this thread we can argue about hair splitting for real. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## copterdoc (Oct 9, 2005)

Fortyneck said:


> I get it, but your arrow will only reach the deer in .2 sec. at a set distance for any given bow/arrow/fps combination.


Having a deer jump the string at a mere 17 yards is simply unacceptable for me.
Over 90% of the deer I shoot, are between 15 and 18 yards away.


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## KS Bow Hunter (Nov 22, 2013)

copterdoc said:


> Having a deer jump the string at a mere 17 yards is simply unacceptable for me.
> Over 90% of the deer I shoot, are between 15 and 18 yards away.


And at that range and a reasonable velocity the arrow is there in the same time as the brain reaction and any chance to move. My arrows travel ~25 yards in .2 seconds. Now 40-50 yards may be a different outcome. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## plecavalier (Jan 10, 2008)

Fortyneck said:


> I get it, but your arrow will only reach the deer in .2 sec. at a set distance for any given bow/arrow/fps combination.


A guy shooting a longbow or recurve (or youth or a women) needs to get to 270 to kill a deer. Otherwise you have to aim 12" under because he's going to duck.

All jokes aside you cannot predict the reaction. Plan to minimize sound and movement a such as possible and aim for a large vital with a good arrow and lots of practice and your odds will be decent. 

As you.can see, we still sidestepped the fact that we can't account for when the .2 second starts. We covered the reaction time at the shot but it can start before that.


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## copterdoc (Oct 9, 2005)

KS Bow Hunter said:


> And at that range and a reasonable velocity the arrow is there in the same time as the brain reaction and any chance to move. My arrows travel ~25 yards in .2 seconds. Now 40-50 yards may be a different outcome.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


No matter how fast your arrow, you aren't safe from "string jumping" beyond 30 yards.
Especially if the deer has its head down when you shoot.


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## Fortyneck (Oct 8, 2010)

copterdoc said:


> Having a deer jump the string at a mere 17 yards is simply unacceptable for me.
> Over 90% of the deer I shoot, are between 15 and 18 yards away.


Fair enough. I guess I don't think about bow hunting in terms of how many fps I need to get my arrow 17 yards, but I admire your conviction.


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## copterdoc (Oct 9, 2005)

plecavalier said:


> A guy shooting a longbow or recurve (or youth or a women) needs to get to 270 to kill a deer.....


 You cannot seriously state that guys shooting traditional archery equipment, or youths and females are not significantly disadvantaged due to the low amount of energy that they have to work with.

Simply because they have to trade so much velocity for enough momentum.


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## Fortyneck (Oct 8, 2010)

KS Bow Hunter said:


> And at that range and a reasonable velocity the arrow is there in the same time as the brain reaction and any chance to move. My arrows travel ~25 yards in .2 seconds. Now 40-50 yards may be a different outcome.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I guess a lot of people say that deer react less @ 40-50yrds, especially if you can hear them drinking water, than they do @ 17yrds, but I hunt in the woods so I wouldn't know :teeth: 

I have seen a deer duck an arrow at 17yrds, though.

I think it's interesting that all us us bowhunters can have such different motivations.


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## copterdoc (Oct 9, 2005)

Fortyneck said:


> ...I have seen a deer duck an arrow at 17yrds, though.
> 
> I think it is interesting


 I have too. 
And it was an eye opening experience.


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## H80Hunter (Jan 23, 2016)

I don’t know what is wrong with me having read this 34 page thread that’s every bit as informative as 20 other 39 page threads on this subject.


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## copterdoc (Oct 9, 2005)

H80Hunter said:


> I don’t know what is wrong with me having read this 34 page thread that’s every bit as informative as 20 other 39 page threads on this subject.


Did they have anything to say about the temperature of molten lead?


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## BigFish7 (Oct 19, 2017)

henro said:


> copterdoc said:
> 
> 
> > I agree with jaximus.
> ...


Ever see a movie where there’s a knife fight going on? Somebody gets stabbed, then the Stabber twists the blade and finishes them off? Same exact concept with a rotational cut.


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## KS Bow Hunter (Nov 22, 2013)

I only release if I can hear them drinking water...if not, I do not release. that really sucks on some of my food plots unless we've gotten A LOT of rain...



Fortyneck said:


> I guess a lot of people say that deer react less @ 40-50yrds, especially if you can hear them drinking water, than they do @ 17yrds, but I hunt in the woods so I wouldn't know :teeth:
> 
> I have seen a deer duck an arrow at 17yrds, though.
> 
> I think it's interesting that all us us bowhunters can have such different motivations.


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## H80Hunter (Jan 23, 2016)

copterdoc said:


> Did they have anything to say about the temperature of molten lead?


No, sadly. However one of them used an argument regarding deer ducking an arrow that started with “imagine you’re in the vacuum of space...”


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## copterdoc (Oct 9, 2005)

BigFish7 said:


> Ever see a movie where there’s a knife fight going on? Somebody gets stabbed, then the Stabber twists the blade and finishes them off? Same exact concept with a rotational cut.


If you twist a knife 120 deg per foot, you only twisted the knife 60 deg with a 6" deep stab wound.


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## copterdoc (Oct 9, 2005)

H80Hunter said:


> No, sadly. However one of them used an argument regarding deer ducking an arrow that started with “imagine you’re in the vacuum of space...”


That'd also be a good way to explain how arrows aren't stabilized by gyroscopic precession.


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## KS Bow Hunter (Nov 22, 2013)

copterdoc said:


> That'd also be a good way to explain how arrows aren't stabilized by gyroscopic precession.


I’ve heard of gyroscopic precession...it is directly related to arrow resistance...oh never mind... 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## BigFish7 (Oct 19, 2017)

copterdoc said:


> BigFish7 said:
> 
> 
> > Ever see a movie where there’s a knife fight going on? Somebody gets stabbed, then the Stabber twists the blade and finishes them off? Same exact concept with a rotational cut.
> ...


Probably enough to kill a deer, it would be 1 lung, but say it’s 1.5” to get through the hide/ ribs, and as you’ve already pointed out the lungs are fully expanded against the walls of the chest cavity— a 45 degree twist to a 4.5” cut of lung tissue is going to keep that lung deflated and cause the animal to expire more effectively than a 4.5” straight on cut will. That just makes sense to me. Not to mention the damage done on the way out by the back edges of the blade that’s twisted 45 degrees is going to be significant as well. Put a heavy arrow behind that, get some more Uumph and achieve 2 holes, that’s a pretty nasty combo.


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## copterdoc (Oct 9, 2005)

BigFish7 said:


> Probably enough to kill a deer, it would be 1 lung,........


 I get both lungs, with a 400 grain arrow pushing a 1.5" diameter three blade broadhead at 270 FPS.


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## BigFish7 (Oct 19, 2017)

copterdoc said:


> BigFish7 said:
> 
> 
> > Probably enough to kill a deer, it would be 1 lung,........
> ...


Cool! Which head? The VPA’s you were talking about?


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## jaximus (Feb 23, 2015)

i dont know about all this ducking the arrow talk. pretty silly if you ask me. make sure you bow is quiet and natural sounding and let it rip. i dont stop deer before shooting, i simply slip one in while they are walking.


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## plecavalier (Jan 10, 2008)

copterdoc said:


> You cannot seriously state that guys shooting traditional archery equipment, or youths and females are not significantly disadvantaged due to the low amount of energy that they have to work with.
> 
> Simply because they have to trade so much velocity for enough momentum.


Just like you can't say 270 is magic within 17 yards.


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## Early Ice (Mar 18, 2008)

henro said:


> That’s your opinion that the single bevel doesn’t do “drastically more damage than he conveys”. How can you prove that?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I've tried lot's of heads on the market. I was VERY hesitant to shoot single bevel because it is a little small but not really. any angle from a tree, that head puts a 2 inch slice, they are impressive. I will shoot nothing but moving forward and no one change my opinion on that. Some say they don't bleed, well i haven't seen that but not bleeding is possible with any head. I do know the deer die and the arrow path is straight. they flat out destroy anything in their way.


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## loujo61 (Apr 29, 2005)

KS Bow Hunter said:


> I’ve heard of gyroscopic precession...it is directly related to arrow resistance...oh never mind...
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Become the arrow and the gyrations will merge with the nodes and the anti nodes and balance out.


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## plecavalier (Jan 10, 2008)

KS Bow Hunter said:


> I’ve heard of gyroscopic precession...it is directly related to arrow resistance...oh never mind...
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Can't figure that equation out so you make fun of it? Also typical of a guy that boast all his credentials right out of the gate...Pride is a double edge sword my friend.


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## deadquiet (Jan 25, 2005)

Rg176bnc said:


> 33 pages and 1 impressive picture albeit on a southern deer.


Funny I thought that was the only thing that didn't mean squat...….lol. If you hunt enough you know that kill shots on deer vary so much that it's pointless to post a picture and think it has any universal meaning. I guess to some people it means something.....but if you have taken a LOT of game you know one picture is worthless.


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## deadquiet (Jan 25, 2005)

I'm trying a GT22 with high FOC this year and it'll weigh about the same as my 2315's but it will have a LOT more FOC. As much as I hate carbon I really want to try a high FOC arrow or the same weight (500gr) just to see if a really high FOC has any noticeable effects. 

I have shot 150 grain heads on aluminum and they are pretty high FOC but these will be much higher...….with 225 grain in the front.


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## Early Ice (Mar 18, 2008)

deadquiet said:


> Funny I thought that was the only thing that didn't mean squat...….lol. If you hunt enough you know that kill shots on deer vary so much that it's pointless to post a picture and think it has any universal meaning. I guess to some people it means something.....but if you have taken a LOT of game you know one picture is worthless.


I didn't comment on that pic, but i'm glad you did cause it's exactly what i was thinking. i'm trying to be a nicer person in 2019


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## 3D Pinwheeler (Jan 29, 2007)

deadquiet said:


> I'm trying a GT22 with high FOC this year and it'll weigh about the same as my 2315's but it will have a LOT more FOC. As much as I hate carbon I really want to try a high FOC arrow or the same weight (500gr) just to see if a really high FOC has any noticeable effects.
> 
> I have shot 150 grain heads on aluminum and they are pretty high FOC but these will be much higher...….with 225 grain in the front.


Those 22's are a tough arrow


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## Fortyneck (Oct 8, 2010)

copterdoc said:


> You cannot seriously state that guys shooting traditional archery equipment, or youths and females are not significantly disadvantaged due to the low amount of energy that they have to work with.
> 
> Simply because they have to trade so much velocity for enough momentum.


The reality is that there are other skills and circumstances that are involved in bow hunting. There are plenty of compound bow hunters that have reached whatever magical paper on paper stats they think are needed to bow hunt effectively that are at a significant disadvantage to the hunting skills and/or circumstances of trad hunters.


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## roosiebull (Oct 3, 2010)

Fortyneck said:


> The reality is that there are other skills and circumstances that are involved in bow hunting. There are plenty of compound bow hunters that have reached whatever magical paper on paper stats they think are needed to bow hunt effectively that are at a significant disadvantage to the hunting skills and/or circumstances of trad hunters.


that's a very good point.... the arrow is a very small factor in the reality of a successful hunter.... very small considering how many arrow variations will work very well when the shot is placed well.


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## copterdoc (Oct 9, 2005)

Fortyneck said:


> The reality is that there are other skills and circumstances that are involved in bow hunting. There are plenty of compound bow hunters that have reached whatever magical paper on paper stats they think are needed to bow hunt effectively that are at a significant disadvantage to the hunting skills and/or circumstances of trad hunters.


Just because someone has learned how to be successful despite being disadvantaged by certain physical laws, doesn't mean that they aren't still disadvantaged.


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## roosiebull (Oct 3, 2010)

copterdoc said:


> Just because someone has learned how to be successful despite being disadvantaged by certain physical laws, doesn't mean that they aren't still disadvantaged.


Sounds like a rifle is a far better fit for you, archery hunting doesn’t coincide with your points of view


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## copterdoc (Oct 9, 2005)

roosiebull said:


> Sounds like a rifle is a far better fit for you, archery hunting doesn’t coincide with your points of view


How on Earth, can you construe something like that?

I guess you should only hunt with a spear.
Barefoot.


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## CareyHamil (Oct 4, 2005)

copterdoc said:


> Stand downrange behind a barrier and listen to the arrow coming towards/past you.
> Even you will "jump" that sound.
> 
> I don't care how quiet you make a bow.
> It's always going to be loud enough that even the most deaf deer in the woods can easily hear it.



The bow isn't the only noise that will cause a jump. The noise that comes from the fletchings is insane. I've seen so many videos were the an animal doesn't jump a string but tries to escape the arrow as it approaches. I was very surprised by how loud arrows are.


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## KS Bow Hunter (Nov 22, 2013)

plecavalier said:


> Can't figure that equation out so you make fun of it? Also typical of a guy that boast all his credentials right out of the gate...Pride is a double edge sword my friend.


A little levity my friend. We are talking about arrows and deer. True story...


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## roosiebull (Oct 3, 2010)

copterdoc said:


> How on Earth, can you construe something like that?
> 
> I guess you should only hunt with a spear.
> Barefoot.


Disadvantages are the whole point of archery hunting, we embrace them, not try to fix every little thing that we got into archery hunting for.

You are acting like all of these factors are problems that need fixing... you over complicate this, but it’s a straight up caveman activity.

Learn to hunt, get within your chip shot range, and execute the shot... it really is that easy


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## copterdoc (Oct 9, 2005)

roosiebull said:


> Disadvantages are the whole point of archery hunting, we embrace them, not try to fix every little thing that we got into archery hunting for.
> 
> You are acting like all of these factors are problems that need fixing... you over complicate this, but it’s a straight up caveman activity.
> 
> Learn to hunt, get within your chip shot range, and execute the shot... it really is that easy


Everybody intentionally makes their chosen sport difficult enough to be challenging, but easy enough that they can still win.
If it's too easy, it's boring. If it's too hard, it's demoralizing.

That's why they have different classes of competition in organized archery events.


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## Fortyneck (Oct 8, 2010)

copterdoc said:


> Just because someone has learned how to be successful despite being disadvantaged by certain physical laws, doesn't mean that they aren't still disadvantaged.


The point is they are only disadvantaged in so far as your definitions/motivations, which are not shared by all... So are they really disadvantages if the goal is to bowhunt successfully?

Not everyone is motivated by .2 sec @ 17yrds. And that is okay.


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## roosiebull (Oct 3, 2010)

copterdoc said:


> Everybody intentionally makes their chosen sport difficult enough to be challenging, but easy enough that they can still win.
> If it's too easy, it's boring. If it's too hard, it's demoralizing.
> 
> That's why they have different classes of competition in organized archery events.


I agree, but on one hand, you are saying the arrow needs to get there in x amount of time, on the other hand, people are saying you need an arrow capable of going through a buffalo shoulder.... but it’s not that complicated. Read the situation and execute a good shot, know your limitations and don’t exceed them... that’s all there is to it


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## copterdoc (Oct 9, 2005)

Fortyneck said:


> The point is they are only disadvantaged in so far as your definitions/motivations, which are not shared by all... So are they really disadvantages if the goal is to bowhunt successfully?
> 
> Not everyone is motivated by .2 sec @ 17yrds. And that is okay.


A physical disadvantage is always a disadvantage.
No matter how you try to spin it.

Even if you deliberately choose to have it.



> dis·ad·van·tage
> 
> noun
> 1.
> ...


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## jaximus (Feb 23, 2015)

cant we go back to talking about the fun stuff? this deer drop and definitions thing is getting old. 

its finally warm enough that my 7ft tall snowbanks are melting, maybe ill be able to shoot outsidd again soon!


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## roosiebull (Oct 3, 2010)

jaximus said:


> cant we go back to talking about the fun stuff? this deer drop and definitions thing is getting old.
> 
> its finally warm enough that my 7ft tall snowbanks are melting, maybe ill be able to shoot outsidd again soon!


Snow? I have to travel to find that:wink: I think it’s not an exaggeration to say I have averaged over 100 arrows a day since the beginning of November... though some of that has been in my shop at 17 yds at night or bad weather. My bow is slow enough that a hay bail can jump the string... but it’s quiet


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## deadquiet (Jan 25, 2005)

Early Ice said:


> I didn't comment on that pic, but i'm glad you did cause it's exactly what i was thinking. i'm trying to be a nicer person in 2019


I'm trying to as well. It was a nice deer and I hope it wasn't taken the wrong way but it's one deer...…..doesn't mean anything really. I got beat up pretty bad on a black bear thread by stating that same point...…..soorrrry fellow archers...…..lol. But it should be pointed out that you'll only see trends with most of the changes we are talking about and they should never be taken as conclusive fact after one kill....or by posting one pic as proof of there effectiveness. 

The folks that have taken lots of game understand that and it wasn't meant to knock the poster.


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## Fortyneck (Oct 8, 2010)

copterdoc said:


> A physical disadvantage is always a disadvantage.
> No matter how you try to spin it.
> 
> Even if you deliberately choose to have it.


#wow

You are the only one (well maybe not the only one) trying to impose a disadvantage based on your hang ups. Sorry, not sorry...

I thought we were making progress with exchange of ideas, but, I, think you are fundamentally wrong on this one. :noidea:


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## copterdoc (Oct 9, 2005)

Fortyneck said:


> #wow
> 
> You are the only one (well maybe not the only one) trying to impose a disadvantage based on your hang ups. Sorry, not sorry...
> 
> I thought we were making progress with exchange of ideas, but, I, think you are fundamentally wrong on this one. :noidea:


 How does one "impose a disadvantage"?

Something either is, or it is not a disadvantage. 
Period.


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## jaximus (Feb 23, 2015)

roosiebull said:


> Snow? I have to travel to find that:wink: I think it’s not an exaggeration to say I have averaged over 100 arrows a day since the beginning of November... though some of that has been in my shop at 17 yds at night or bad weather. My bow is slow enough that a hay bail can jump the string... but it’s quiet


you can have my snow! we had 103" in february alone... my indoor targets have taken a beating as i fend off cabin fever... i dont do well in the winter months with the seasonal blues, cant ice fish with 3ft of ice and this much snow on top, coyotes wont move, so i pretty much sit on AT and wear out my basement range at 10yds


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## Fortyneck (Oct 8, 2010)

copterdoc said:


> How does one "impose a disadvantage"?
> 
> Something either is, or it is not a disadvantage.
> Period.


That is your homework copterdoc.

Please be sure to provide examples like I did.


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## Rg176bnc (Dec 13, 2004)

deadquiet said:


> Funny I thought that was the only thing that didn't mean squat...….lol. If you hunt enough you know that kill shots on deer vary so much that it's pointless to post a picture and think it has any universal meaning. I guess to some people it means something.....but if you have taken a LOT of game you know one picture is worthless.


That's exactly my point. Its all mental masturbation. A bad shot with a 400gr arrow is the same bad shot with a 650gr arrow. If it really made that big a difference someone here would be posting multiple pics of arrows passing length wise thru deer, double busted front legs, hell even accidently going thru ones dome. Theres a lot of funky hits out there yet not one on this thread where 650gr saved someones bacon.


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## copterdoc (Oct 9, 2005)

Fortyneck said:


> That is your homework copterdoc.
> 
> Please be sure to provide examples like I did.


I don't think we are even talking about the same thing.

A bow is a Simple Machine, that converts a percentage of the energy that was invested into the draw (by the shooter) into another form (Kinetic) and sends that downrange with the arrow.
Regardless of whether you are shooting a heavy slow arrow, or a light fast one, the machine physically *NEEDS* an investment of energy in order to function.

If you can't invest but a quarter of the energy into the draw, you can't get but a quarter of the energy transferred into the arrow. No matter what extreme you go to in arrow weight.
That's a disadvantage. You can't say that it isn't.

Even if it's a disadvantage, that you deliberately choose to handicap yourself with, it's *STILL* a disadvantage.


----------



## copterdoc (Oct 9, 2005)

On the other hand, it's also a disadvantage to your accuracy, if you are drawing 1-1/2" over your DL, at 20# over your DW, just so you can put more energy into the bow.


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## plecavalier (Jan 10, 2008)

Rg176bnc said:


> That's exactly my point. Its all mental masturbation. A bad shot with a 400gr arrow is the same bad shot with a 650gr arrow. If it really made that big a difference someone here would be posting multiple pics of arrows passing length wise thru deer, double busted front legs, hell even accidently going thru ones dome. Theres a lot of funky hits out there yet not one on this thread where 650gr saved someones bacon.


But you just stated pictures mean nothing. How many picturee of a 650gn arrow going through stuff would it take for you to say wow, that really works? 3....6.....12....100? Or if I post 100 will you say something to completely discredit all of them? Not attacking you here but it's just that people don't want to believe. You just said if it were true we'd see pictures. Heck I could produce an entire documentary but you don't *want* to believe therefore you won't. It's just the way it is. I came to that realization some time ago and haveaccepted that. Anyone that doesn't believe in Ashby and heavy arrows and the information provided is only ever going to believe on their own terms with their own eyes. It certainly won't be a bunch of pics in a forum where everyone including myself have lost all hope of credibility long ago.


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## Fortyneck (Oct 8, 2010)

copterdoc said:


> I don't think we are even talking about the same thing.
> 
> A bow is a Simple Machine, that converts a percentage of the Energy that was invested into the draw (by the shooter) into another form (Kinetic) and sends that downrange with the arrow.
> Regardless of whether you are shooting a heavy slow arrow, or a light fast one, the machine Physically *NEEDS* an investment of energy in order to function.
> ...


"Simple Machine" indeed. :darkbeer:



copterdoc said:


> On the other hand, it's also a disadvantage to your accuracy, if you are drawing 1-1/2" over your DL, at 20# over your DW, just so you can put more energy into the bow.


I thought you were going to give examples for your point, not mine... :wink:


----------



## plecavalier (Jan 10, 2008)

copterdoc said:


> I don't think we are even talking about the same thing.
> 
> A bow is a Simple Machine, that converts a percentage of the energy that was invested into the draw (by the shooter) into another form (Kinetic) and sends that downrange with the arrow.
> Regardless of whether you are shooting a heavy slow arrow, or a light fast one, the machine physically *NEEDS* an investment of energy in order to function.
> ...


Actually that's not true. Each bow based on its draw force curve has a potential aka 100% of its force or energy to be transferred *at any draw length or weight*. Adding weight absorbs or allows for that energy transfer. If you map it out and Chrono your arrows as you add weight at some point you'll reach into the upper 70s maybe 80s. So your statement is entirely false u less perhaps that not what you meant. BTW the arrow will way North of 2000 by the time you reach above 80% on almost any bow. I've never done it, not useful knowledge to me other than perhaps proving people like you wrong.

Also guys shooting anything under 500 would be shocked to learn how little energy they using from their bow. Kinda like humans only using 10% of the brains. And that's the really smart ones


----------



## copterdoc (Oct 9, 2005)

plecavalier said:


> Actually that's not true. Each bow based on its draw force curve has a potential aka 100% of its force or energy to be transferred *at any draw length or weight*. Adding weight absorbs or allows for that energy transfer. If you map it out and Chrono your arrows as you add weight at some point you'll reach into the upper 70s maybe 80s. So your statement is entirely false u less perhaps that not what you meant. BTW the arrow will way North of 2000 by the time you reach above 80% on almost any bow. I've never done it, not useful knowledge to me other than perhaps proving people like you wrong.
> 
> Also guys shooting anything under 500 would be shocked to learn how little energy they using from their bow. Kinda like humans only using 10% of the brains. And that's the really smart ones


 Regardless of arrow weight, the more energy you invest into the draw, the more energy you will measure in the arrow.
There is no point that you can invest less energy into the draw, where you will get more energy in the arrow.

The only energy that the bow has to work with, is the energy that the shooter put in.

And I'm not saying that KE has any sort of linear relationship with penetration.
But energy *IS* what actually moves the arrow.


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## roosiebull (Oct 3, 2010)

jaximus said:


> you can have my snow! we had 103" in february alone... my indoor targets have taken a beating as i fend off cabin fever... i dont do well in the winter months with the seasonal blues, cant ice fish with 3ft of ice and this much snow on top, coyotes wont move, so i pretty much sit on AT and wear out my basement range at 10yds


we had like 1/2” one morning and school was canceled, haha.. that’s our big snow day this year


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## plecavalier (Jan 10, 2008)

copterdoc said:


> Regardless of arrow weight, the more energy you invest into the draw, the more energy you will measure in the arrow.
> There is no point that you can invest less energy into the draw, where you will get more energy in the arrow.
> 
> The only energy that the bow has to work with, is the energy that the shooter put in.
> ...


We're not talking apples to apples here.

What I'm referring to is the bow's potential in the state you're using it. Of course if you say the bow is 100% at max draw length and max draw weight and you're only pulling it 75% of each you're not going to magically fetch that 25%.

However, if you draw 60lbs at 28 inches *that is your 100%*. So from that, if you map out the draw force curve and start adding weight until you reach the zenith of the graph you will have realized 100% of your bow's potential transferable energy. Change the numbers and map that new curve rinse and repeat for each of you. Therefore *everyone* can realize their bow's maximum potential transferable energy out onto the arrow. On a side note, I don't recommend reaching for 100%. 40-50 will suffice for most unless you're pulling long heavy draw (see below).

As mentioned, most would be totally shocked since both the current state of energy transferred from a typical setup such as the example above is probably south of 30% with a 400gn arrow and would only be 100% above ...I don't know, maybe 1,700? The curve isn't steady after a certain point but it does continue to grow. That point where things start to plateau? I know you didn't ask but I'll venture out and write it anyways, it's right around 650gn ie 50% or just under. Then it climbs increasingly slowly. As I said previously, guys shooting what you call "crazy heavy" are thriving to achieve maximum efficiency out of their equipment. Much like any sports enthusiast would eventually realize they want out of their gear.

The more weight you draw and the longer the draw the longer it takes for the curve to start slowing btw. So all you guys pulling 70+ the sky's the limit boys!


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## copterdoc (Oct 9, 2005)

Again.........

You said;


plecavalier said:


> A guy shooting a longbow or recurve (or youth or a women) needs to get to 270 to kill a deer..........


And then I said;


copterdoc said:


> You cannot seriously state that guys shooting traditional archery equipment, or youths and females are not significantly disadvantaged due to the low amount of energy that they have to work with.
> 
> Simply because they have to trade so much velocity for enough momentum.


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## Rg176bnc (Dec 13, 2004)

plecavalier said:


> But you just stated pictures mean nothing. How many picturee of a 650gn arrow going through stuff would it take for you to say wow, that really works? 3....6.....12....100? Or if I post 100 will you say something to completely discredit all of them? Not attacking you here but it's just that people don't want to believe. You just said if it were true we'd see pictures. Heck I could produce an entire documentary but you don't *want* to believe therefore you won't. It's just the way it is. I came to that realization some time ago and haveaccepted that. Anyone that doesn't believe in Ashby and heavy arrows and the information provided is only ever going to believe on their own terms with their own eyes. It certainly won't be a bunch of pics in a forum where everyone including myself have lost all hope of credibility long ago.


If you reread at no point will you see where I said pics mean nothing. On the contrary Id like to see some of this bone busting bs. Like I said if it was happening there would be plenty of them.


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## copterdoc (Oct 9, 2005)

plecavalier said:


> As mentioned, most would be totally shocked since both the current state of energy transferred from a typical setup such as the example above is probably south of 30% with a 400gn arrow.....


 If you honestly believe that, I'm not at all surprised that you believe that Humans only use 10% of their brains.


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## loujo61 (Apr 29, 2005)

plecavalier said:


> We're not talking apples to apples here.
> 
> What I'm referring to is the bow's potential in the state you're using it. Of course if you say the bow is 100% at max draw length and max draw weight and you're only pulling it 75% of each you're not going to magically fetch that 25%.
> 
> ...


That percentage will not increase that much with today's bows that are designed to shoot at IBO speeds, the velocity will drop off too drastically with that 650 grain arrow and the energy gains will slow consistent with the loss of velocity.


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## copterdoc (Oct 9, 2005)

loujo61 said:


> That percentage will not increase that much with today's bows that are designed to shoot at IBO speeds, the velocity will drop off too drastically with that 650 grain arrow. The energy will plateau do to the loss of velocity.


The energy actually still doesn't plateau until well over 1,000 grains. 
But, since today's bows are so much closer to 100% efficiency, the slope is a lot more gradual than it used to be.


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## loujo61 (Apr 29, 2005)

copterdoc said:


> The energy actually still doesn't plateau until well over 1,000 grains.
> But, since today's bows are so much closer to 100% efficiency, the slope is a lot more gradual than it used to be.


Yes but I responding in reference to Phil's percentages.


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## copterdoc (Oct 9, 2005)

loujo61 said:


> Yes but I responding in reference to Phil's percentages.


Well, don't say that it will plateau then. 
Because he will argue against that point. And he'll be right!


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## loujo61 (Apr 29, 2005)

copterdoc said:


> Well, don't say that it will plateau then.
> Because he will argue against that point. And he'll be right!


You quoted me before i edited.


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## plecavalier (Jan 10, 2008)

Rg176bnc said:


> If you reread at no point will you see where I said pics mean nothing. On the contrary Id like to see some of this bone busting bs. Like I said if it was happening there would be plenty of them.


More proof you don't want to believe; you called it bs. It is not up to me to convince you and if you think the lack of pics on an online forum is irrefutable proof you're not being honest with yourself. I can't fix that either. You know you could just leave the realm of AT and Google it. There's tons of pics and even videos.


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## plecavalier (Jan 10, 2008)

copterdoc said:


> The energy actually still doesn't plateau until well over 1,000 grains.
> But, since today's bows are so much closer to 100% efficiency, the slope is a lot more gradual than it used to be.


You guys need to call a caucus on this before we continue? You know half of 2000 is 1000 and then that 30% is...ah yes 700.


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## copterdoc (Oct 9, 2005)

plecavalier said:


> You guys need to call a caucus on this before we continue? You know half of 2000 is 1000 and then that 30% is...ah yes 700.


Efficiency can be measured. Here's a graph taken from a bow produced over a decade ago, with arrow weights from 400 up to 1425.









And here's the article that it came from.
http://archeryreport.com/2011/02/bow-efficiency-care/


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## tsm213 (Apr 26, 2011)

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## copterdoc (Oct 9, 2005)

Ehh.... It's still better than being at work.


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## copterdoc (Oct 9, 2005)

And this is also something that robots can't do yet.


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## plecavalier (Jan 10, 2008)

copterdoc said:


> Efficiency can be measured. Here's a graph taken from a bow produced over a decade ago, with arrow weights from 400 up to 1425.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Oops. I think you meant to post this one.


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## BigFish7 (Oct 19, 2017)

copterdoc said:


> And this is also something that robots can't do yet.


You might be onto something. Maybe somebody should ask Watson or Alexa or Siri what the beat arrow weight is?


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## copterdoc (Oct 9, 2005)

plecavalier said:


> Oops. I think you meant to post this one.



Well, I *was* replying to your ridiculous "sub 30% efficiency, with a 400 grain arrow" claim.

Sooooo.... that's why I posted the graph that actually applied to efficiency.

But I don't disagree with either one.


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## roosiebull (Oct 3, 2010)

BigFish7 said:


> You might be onto something. Maybe somebody should ask Watson or Alexa or Siri what the beat arrow weight is?


That is what I did :wink: Siri said for my recurve, 636gr, 23% foc was my ideal setup


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## enewman (Jun 5, 2007)

BigFish7 said:


> You might be onto something. Maybe somebody should ask Watson or Alexa or Siri what the beat arrow weight is?


Haha now that’s funny


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## jaximus (Feb 23, 2015)

plecavalier said:


> We're not talking apples to apples here.
> 
> What I'm referring to is the bow's potential in the state you're using it. Of course if you say the bow is 100% at max draw length and max draw weight and you're only pulling it 75% of each you're not going to magically fetch that 25%.
> 
> ...


this looks like a lot of fear mongering. 

i also read this a bunch of times. im not quite sure if you just really poorly portrayed your point or if you dont understand draw force curves and bow efficiency. i really want to believe you understand draw force curves and bow efficiency, so i think its that you really did a poor job explaining.


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## plecavalier (Jan 10, 2008)

jaximus said:


> this looks like a lot of fear mongering.
> 
> i also read this a bunch of times. im not quite sure if you just really poorly portrayed your point or if you dont understand draw force curves and bow efficiency. i really want to believe you understand draw force curves and bow efficiency, so i think its that you really did a poor job explaining.


Really Jack? Must you act this way? So based on your response I'm either an idiot or...an idiot. Nice. And you wonder why I put you on ignore.


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## jaximus (Feb 23, 2015)

plecavalier said:


> Really Jack? Must you act this way? So based on your response I'm either an idiot or...an idiot. Nice. And you wonder why I put you on ignore.


phil, slow down, reread... i dont want to believe that youre an idiot... so i hope you just poorly portrayed the point you were trying to make.


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## plecavalier (Jan 10, 2008)

jaximus said:


> phil, slow down, reread... i dont want to believe that youre an idiot... so i hope you just poorly portrayed the point you were trying to make.


Maybe, just maybe you're consistently misunderstanding me? Maybe it's you not me. Maybe you are the one that needs to slow down and reread Jack?


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## 3D Pinwheeler (Jan 29, 2007)

plecavalier said:


> Really Jack? Must you act this way? So based on your response I'm either an idiot or...an idiot. Nice. And you wonder why I put you on ignore.


Can we have one heavy arrow thread where you don't threaten someone with the ignore button? I've never put anyone on ignore...I simply ignore their comments.


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## Fortyneck (Oct 8, 2010)

3D Pinwheeler said:


> Can we have one heavy arrow thread where you don't threaten someone with the ignore button? I've never put anyone on ignore...I simply ignore their comments.


Just one thread... for me... pretty please. Lol!

For the record that is how I work it; I use my natural born ignore button :loco:


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## plecavalier (Jan 10, 2008)

3D Pinwheeler said:


> Can we have one heavy arrow thread where you don't threaten someone with the ignore button? I've never put anyone on ignore...I simply ignore their comments.





Fortyneck said:


> Just one thread... for me... pretty please. Lol!
> 
> For the record that is how I work it; I use my natural born ignore button :loco:


Neither of you seem to host threads or are constantly called upon to defend your comments. Easy to ignore if you're seldom addressed. You don't understand my position here nor do you realize the past I have with Jack.

Nor do either of you seem to see the irony of your comment lol

Carry on...


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## jaximus (Feb 23, 2015)

i spent a few years reading AT from the background before i joined and started posting. i wasnt able to ask questions and clarify things. i simply relied on what others wrote and where the threads were headed. had to search and scour for information that i wanted, hoping it was there. 

thats why i address things that dont make sense. in the flow of a thread in the right now with the current posters, it may seem petty or whatever, but look at the number of reads vs comments. theres a bunch of people reading and not commenting and who knows how many will read this later or search it on google. i use these threads as a reference for later (when the search function works properly). its for learning, not for bickering. 

i dont have any bad blood with phil, we have our history, but each thread is a new adventure


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## plecavalier (Jan 10, 2008)

jaximus said:


> i spent a few years reading AT from the background before i joined and started posting. i wasnt able to ask questions and clarify things. i simply relied on what others wrote and where the threads were headed. had to search and scour for information that i wanted, hoping it was there.
> 
> thats why i address things that dont make sense. in the flow of a thread in the right now with the current posters, it may seem petty or whatever, but look at the number of reads vs comments. theres a bunch of people reading and not commenting and who knows how many will read this later or search it on google. i use these threads as a reference for later (when the search function works properly). its for learning, not for bickering.
> 
> i dont have any bad blood with phil, we have our history, but each thread is a new adventure


Read the PM I sent you Jack.


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## roosiebull (Oct 3, 2010)

jaximus said:


> i spent a few years reading AT from the background before i joined and started posting. i wasnt able to ask questions and clarify things. i simply relied on what others wrote and where the threads were headed. had to search and scour for information that i wanted, hoping it was there.
> 
> thats why i address things that dont make sense. in the flow of a thread in the right now with the current posters, it may seem petty or whatever, but look at the number of reads vs comments. theres a bunch of people reading and not commenting and who knows how many will read this later or search it on google. i use these threads as a reference for later (when the search function works properly). its for learning, not for bickering.
> 
> i dont have any bad blood with phil, we have our history, but each thread is a new adventure


exactly, questioning things brings out more and better information. I like arrows on the heavier side myself, but still like playing "the devil's advocate" because it brings more information, and different points of view into discussion.... that can easily be seen as being argumentative, especially in text, but that isn't the intention.

the bottom line is, if you have strong opinions on internet forums, you need to also have thick skin, there is absolutely NO REASON to take things personally on internet forums. no reason to get mad and hold a grudge on AT, hahaha


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## plecavalier (Jan 10, 2008)

roosiebull said:


> exactly, questioning things brings out more and better information. I like arrows on the heavier side myself, but still like playing "the devil's advocate" because it brings more information, and different points of view into discussion.... that can easily be seen as being argumentative, especially in text, but that isn't the intention.
> 
> the bottom line is, if you have strong opinions on internet forums, you need to also have thick skin, there is absolutely NO REASON to take things personally on internet forums. no reason to get mad and hold a grudge on AT, hahaha


It's different when there's a history between people.


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## jaximus (Feb 23, 2015)

plecavalier said:


> Read the PM I sent you Jack.


i havent gotten one if youve already sent it


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## roosiebull (Oct 3, 2010)

plecavalier said:


> It's different when there's a history between people.


it doesn't have to be.... the past is the past, you can dwell on it, or focus on the present... WE have the ability to choose what effects us and what doesn't


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## plecavalier (Jan 10, 2008)

Oh I'm well aware of that.


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## Fortyneck (Oct 8, 2010)

plecavalier said:


> Neither of you seem to host threads or are constantly called upon to defend your comments. Easy to ignore if you're seldom addressed. You don't understand my position here nor do you realize the past I have with Jack.
> 
> Nor do either of you seem to see the irony of your comment lol
> 
> Carry on...


Simmer down, I was actually poking fun at the way 3D asked, and in the same post stating I use the same strategy. I don’t care if you use the ignore feature or post about it.

Proceed...


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## cooperjd (Aug 18, 2009)

loujo61 said:


> That percentage will not increase that much with today's bows that are designed to shoot at IBO speeds, the velocity will drop off too drastically with that 650 grain arrow and the energy gains will slow consistent with the loss of velocity.


Do you have any evidence to back this up?

I have evidence from the '18 flagship bows from PSE, Bowtech, Hoyt, Prime, and Mathews all tested with a 642 gr arrow that absolutely go against your statement. All of them had calculated IBO ratings much higher when using the heavier arrow. My old destroyer 340 has a calculated IBO of 360 when you test the heavy arrow, as the efficiency goes up with ALL of these bows in a similar fashion.


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## 3D Pinwheeler (Jan 29, 2007)

cooperjd said:


> Do you have any evidence to back this up?
> 
> I have evidence from the '18 flagship bows from PSE, Bowtech, Hoyt, Prime, and Mathews all tested with a 642 gr arrow that absolutely go against your statement. All of them had calculated IBO ratings much higher when using the heavier arrow. My old destroyer 340 has a calculated IBO of 360 when you test the heavy arrow, as the efficiency goes up with ALL of these bows in a similar fashion.


642gr is 200gr heavier than Lou's legal limit. Hard to test if you don't have one.


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## jaximus (Feb 23, 2015)

cooperjd said:


> Do you have any evidence to back this up?
> 
> I have evidence from the '18 flagship bows from PSE, Bowtech, Hoyt, Prime, and Mathews all tested with a 642 gr arrow that absolutely go against your statement. All of them had calculated IBO ratings much higher when using the heavier arrow. My old destroyer 340 has a calculated IBO of 360 when you test the heavy arrow, as the efficiency goes up with ALL of these bows in a similar fashion.


im a pretty a pretty reasonable fella and i understand that energy transfer efficiency does indeed go up with higher weight arrows. 340/360=94.444. would be interesting to see a number somewhere in the middle, say 500gr, and what that would yield in terms of a calculated IBO. coincidentally thats the arrow weight your shooting from that bow. 

where are the big jumps and where is it mostly diminishing returns? ive focused on maximizing shafts/spines for given bows, but maximizing efficiency is fun to look at


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## cooperjd (Aug 18, 2009)

jaximus said:


> im a pretty a pretty reasonable fella and i understand that energy transfer efficiency does indeed go up with higher weight arrows. 340/360=94.444. would be interesting to see a number somewhere in the middle, say 500gr, and what that would yield in terms of a calculated IBO. coincidentally thats the arrow weight your shooting from that bow.
> 
> where are the big jumps and where is it mostly diminishing returns? ive focused on maximizing shafts/spines for given bows, but maximizing efficiency is fun to look at


Jax, here is how i calculated that 360 number.

went to an online calculator and entered 340 IBO, 30/70, and 15gr on the string. that yielded 335 fps from a 350gr arrow, which i tested through a chrono. so that was my baseline.

now enter 642gr arrow and to get to my chrono-tested velocity the IBO must be changed to 360.

Now enter a 520gr arrow and to get my chrono-tested velocity the IBO must be 347. That's what i have for a mid-weight. same for my 496gr arrows...347.


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## loujo61 (Apr 29, 2005)

plecavalier said:


> We're not talking apples to apples here.
> 
> What I'm referring to is the bow's potential in the state you're using it. Of course if you say the bow is 100% at max draw length and max draw weight and you're only pulling it 75% of each you're not going to magically fetch that 25%.
> 
> ...





loujo61 said:


> That percentage will not increase that much with today's bows that are designed to shoot at IBO speeds, the velocity will drop off too drastically with that 650 grain arrow and the energy gains will slow consistent with the loss of velocity.





cooperjd said:


> Do you have any evidence to back this up?
> 
> I have evidence from the '18 flagship bows from PSE, Bowtech, Hoyt, Prime, and Mathews all tested with a 642 gr arrow that absolutely go against your statement. All of them had calculated IBO ratings much higher when using the heavier arrow. My old destroyer 340 has a calculated IBO of 360 when you test the heavy arrow, as the efficiency goes up with ALL of these bows in a similar fashion.


I was referring to energy not efficiency. The energy is not going to drastically jump up (20%) with that heavier arrow nor is the efficiency going to go up that much. Refer to the charts posted for that evidence.


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## Adam634 (Jan 2, 2013)

Blade1970 said:


> I know I will get some crap for posting this. Just a little feedback. I have bow hunted every single year since 85 and have harvested over 300 dear because I live on a farm with a crop damage stamp. My old bow shot 302 fps and I used a gold tip at 8.2 grains per inch with spitfire tips (100 grain) and since I hunt on the ground I always get a straight pass through on a deer. I see so many new hunters going with much heavier arrows. Almost all the misses in archery is due to the drop of the arrow and yet it seems like the new trend is to hunt with these heavy arrows. Mine goes stright through sometimes 30-40 yrds past where I hit the deer. Did I miss something in the last few years for the heavy arrow thing?


Probably one of the more ignorant post I’ve seen on this site. Of course you get a pass through very single time with a 385g arrow. It’s AT I wouldn’t expect anything less. Yes a light arrow works till it doesn’t and you smash into a shoulder knuckle and get about 3in of penetration. Anyone that shoots a heavy arrow is making their bow, arrow, and Broadhead more efficient when a perfect hit isn’t the result. 
Not practicing and not having situational awareness of alert deer and their reaction isn’t going to be made up by a heavier arrow but it will be more forgiving if you make a less than ideal shot


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## jaximus (Feb 23, 2015)

cooperjd said:


> Jax, here is how i calculated that 360 number.
> 
> went to an online calculator and entered 340 IBO, 30/70, and 15gr on the string. that yielded 335 fps from a 350gr arrow, which i tested through a chrono. so that was my baseline.
> 
> ...


thats about how i figured you did it, just didnt know which numbers you used as you are a 31" draw, so i didnt want to play with your numbers from your signature and didnt know which calculator you used. pretty neat to see how it all works together. 

as long as the higher massed arrows velocity is measured with a chrono, it should all be backwards math-able from the KE number.


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## cooperjd (Aug 18, 2009)

jaximus said:


> thats about how i figured you did it, just didnt know which numbers you used as you are a 31" draw, so i didnt want to play with your numbers from your signature and didnt know which calculator you used. pretty neat to see how it all works together.
> 
> as long as the higher massed arrows velocity is measured with a chrono, it should all be backwards math-able from the KE number.


i use to shoot it at 30" but after a correction in my form i had to bump it up a bit. i haven't chrono'd at 31" yet...those speeds are from the old days. i'll eventually update it.


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## loujo61 (Apr 29, 2005)

3D Pinwheeler said:


> 642gr is 200gr heavier than Lou's legal limit. Hard to test if you don't have one.


I have a 2712 that is close to that weight and it is an absolute slob out of my 60# bow at 40 yards. If arrows inherited so much potential energy with the added weight (20% as Phil stated) they wouldn't fall out of the sky so abruptly.


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## jaximus (Feb 23, 2015)

cooperjd said:


> i use to shoot it at 30" but after a correction in my form i had to bump it up a bit. i haven't chrono'd at 31" yet...those speeds are from the old days. i'll eventually update it.


31" and 80# on the cpxl is a lot of mustard. you need a lot of arrow to harness all that energy. a far cry from my 60# e35.


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## loujo61 (Apr 29, 2005)

jaximus said:


> 31" and 80# on the cpxl is a lot of mustard. you need a lot of arrow to harness all that energy. a far cry from my 60# e35.


Exactly.


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## cooperjd (Aug 18, 2009)

jaximus said:


> 31" and 80# on the cpxl is a lot of mustard. you need a lot of arrow to harness all that energy. a far cry from my 60# e35.


i should probably stop shooting that beast, but it packs a punch! I usually like to stay out of a lot of these arrow mass discussions because i have an unfair advantage with heavy arrows and that bow. the 642s are not really even what i would consider heavy, since at 80# they are only 8gpp.  the new limbs are i think around 85# iirc, putting the arrows at 7.5gpp, really not heavy at all. it's insane and somewhat dumb, but i might as well shoot it while i can. it really rocks the 3d targets  My dream is a cape buff with a bow, and before i got married it was an actual possible reality, so i built a couple of heavy bows. now that i am married, have a house and an 11 month old, that hunting acct now looks a lot more like an empty bag...


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## jaximus (Feb 23, 2015)

cooperjd said:


> i should probably stop shooting that beast, but it packs a punch! I usually like to stay out of a lot of these arrow mass discussions because i have an unfair advantage with heavy arrows and that bow. the 642s are not really even what i would consider heavy, since at 80# they are only 8gpp. the new limbs are i think around 85# iirc, putting the arrows at 7.5gpp, really not heavy at all. it's insane and somewhat dumb, but i might as well shoot it while i can. it really rocks the 3d targets  My dream is a cape buff with a bow, and before i got married it was an actual possible reality, so i built a couple of heavy bows. now that i am married, have a house and an 11 month old, that hunting acct now looks a lot more like an empty bag...


gpp is also a neat tool. it goes back to what i was saying about the whole system, the big picture. i definitely feel you on the hunting budget part. a few years back my wife and i made the decision to have her stay home with our then 2y/o boy. now we have a 4y/o boy and a 1 y/o girl and shes still and at home mom. i have more time than ever before to hunt with her being around all the time, but money is scarce. one day in the next 5 years or so, i hope to do an DIY elk trip. then again when my son is old enough. thats my bucket list.


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## josephmdrewniak (Feb 13, 2015)

You're right, simple math and physics. Needs to be a balance of speed and weight, lean too far one way and there are big risks. Guys get obsessed with penetration.........


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## copterdoc (Oct 9, 2005)

Calculating for IBO speed doesn't tell you how _much_ efficiency change there was.

Because, IBO is calculated based on the assumption that arrow speed decreases 1 FPS per every 3.33 grains added.
And since it really doesn't decrease in a linear fashion, the IBO rating does go up when it is calculated.

But if you want to know how much the efficiency has changed, you have to plot the DFC, measure how much energy was invested, and then measure how much energy was transferred into the arrow.

It's all covered in that Archery Report article that I posted last night.


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## jaximus (Feb 23, 2015)

phil, i still havent gotten your PM


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## jaximus (Feb 23, 2015)

copterdoc said:


> Calculating for IBO speed doesn't tell you how _much_ efficiency change there was.
> 
> Because, IBO is calculated based on the assumption that arrow speed decreases 1 FPS per every 3.33 grains added.
> And since it really doesn't decrease in a linear fashion, the IBO rating does go up when it is calculated.
> ...


not to speak for coop, but the calculated IBO has nothing to do with the 1 fps per 3.33 grains. its all about the KE formula. using the one from the article you linked, archery report, with the graphs, 

KE= 1/2MV^2

the original 'rated' IBO mass and velocity are measured. the heavy arrow mass and velocity are measured. if there was no gain in efficiency, KE would be equal. since there is a gain, seen by the graph showing increasing KE with arrow weight, you can simply work the formula backwards. set the two equations equal, KE from the heavy arrow measured (chrono) velocity and solve the other side using IBO weight and solve for velocity. the 'calculated' ibo then is nothing more than the bow showing the heavy arrows efficiency with the lower massed arrow in the KE equation. the lighter arrow shows that energy as noise or vibration in reality, where the heavy arrow absorbs more into KE.


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## copterdoc (Oct 9, 2005)

I didn't say that calculated IBO doesn't tell you if there is/was an increase in efficiency. It actually does.

I said;


copterdoc said:


> Calculating for IBO speed doesn't tell you how _much_ efficiency change there was.


There is a reason that the word "much" is in italics and underlined.
And that reason is that the 1 FPS-per-3.33-grains ratio (that _IS_ how IBO speeds are calculated) is not actually valid.


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## roosiebull (Oct 3, 2010)

Adam634 said:


> Probably one of the more ignorant post I’ve seen on this site. Of course you get a pass through very single time with a 385g arrow. It’s AT I wouldn’t expect anything less. Yes a light arrow works till it doesn’t and you smash into a shoulder knuckle and get about 3in of penetration. Anyone that shoots a heavy arrow is making their bow, arrow, and Broadhead more efficient when a perfect hit isn’t the result.
> Not practicing and not having situational awareness of alert deer and their reaction isn’t going to be made up by a heavier arrow but it will be more forgiving if you make a less than ideal shot


I wouldn't say as ignorant as it is obvious BS.... even on flat ground, that deer will have to be standing on the very top of a tall hill, haha..... just another fib to support his false claims. 

he didn't even try to make his story believable

history does show that setup will kill the heck out of deer though, every time a decent shot is made.... way plenty of energy


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## jaximus (Feb 23, 2015)

copterdoc said:


> I didn't say that calculated IBO doesn't tell you if there is/was an increase in efficiency. It actually does.
> 
> I said;
> 
> ...


sorry for the oversight, was in the car with fighting children, didnt quite finish. so, do what i said to do. it will give you a calculated IBO for a specific arrow mass. take that calculated IBO number and divide it by the actual IBO number. (hint: it will be bigger than 1, showing an increase in efficiency). subtract 1. that will give you just the change, multiply it times 100, to give you a percentage change, in efficiency gained by using a heavier arrow. 

using numbers from earlier in coops example with his d340... using the KE formula instead of the calculator(formula is better) its actually MORE efficient, showing and adjust IBO of 351 fps. (using his signature number of 295fps(he said that was at 30", not 31), 15gr on the string, for his 496gr arrow. 

thats 3% more efficient with the 496gr arrow vs 350. not crazy, but its something, IF the bow meets draw weight spec.


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## jaximus (Feb 23, 2015)

i should include this here as you can simply plus in arrow mass in grains and arrow velocity in fps into the formula to find your numbers

KE(arrow)= (arrow weight in grains * arrow speed in fps ^2) / 450,800


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## copterdoc (Oct 9, 2005)

jaximus said:


> sorry for the oversight, was in the car with fighting children, didnt quite finish. so, do what i said to do. it will give you a calculated IBO for a specific arrow mass. take that calculated IBO number and divide it by the actual IBO number. (hint: it will be bigger than 1, showing an increase in efficiency). subtract 1. that will give you just the change, multiply it times 100, to give you a percentage change, in efficiency gained by using a heavier arrow......


 The calculated IBO speed contains much irrelevant data, due to the 1 to 3.33 "guess" that *has to* be included in calculating IBO speed.

All you actually need to know, is how many ft-lbs of energy was invested into the draw, and how many ft-lbs of energy stayed with the arrow.
The percentage of change in measured KE, *IS* the percentage of change in efficiency.


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## henro (Oct 9, 2007)

Old news...

https://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=1779534


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## jaximus (Feb 23, 2015)

copterdoc said:


> The calculated IBO speed contains much irrelevant data, due to the 1 to 3.33 "guess" that *has to* be included in calculating IBO speed.
> 
> All you actually need to know, is how many ft-lbs of energy was invested into the draw, and how many ft-lbs of energy stayed with the arrow.
> The percentage of change in measured KE, *IS* the percentage of change in efficiency.


there is no 1 to 3.33 in the KE formula calculation i told you to do...

and there are 2 efficiencies to look at, bow efficiency and arrow usage efficiency. your statement of ft-lbs of energy invested into the draw is incorrect, what you need from the draw force curve is the return trip, the 'let down' portion of the curve. thats the actual usable portion of invested energy. somewhere in the 70-90% range of invested draw energy. then you need the ft-lbs of energy in the arrow itself, that will tell you the arrow usage efficiency.


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## copterdoc (Oct 9, 2005)

jaximus said:


> there is no 1 to 3.33 in the KE formula calculation i told you to do...


 You aren't listening.

You *cannot* calculate IBO speed *without* using the 1 to 3.33 ratio.
That's actually *what* you use, to calculate IBO speed!

IBO speed literally has nothing to do with measuring the efficiency percentage of a bow.


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## copterdoc (Oct 9, 2005)

jaximus said:


> ....what you need from the draw force curve is the return trip, the 'let down' portion of the curve. thats the actual usable portion of invested energy....


You cannot disregard hysteresis when measuring efficiency. That's one of the efficiency losses that you get, when converting energy from one form to another.


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## jaximus (Feb 23, 2015)

jaximus said:


> sorry for the oversight, was in the car with fighting children, didnt quite finish. so, do what i said to do. it will give you a calculated IBO for a specific arrow mass. take that calculated IBO number and divide it by the actual IBO number. (hint: it will be bigger than 1, showing an increase in efficiency). subtract 1. that will give you just the change, multiply it times 100, to give you a percentage change, in efficiency gained by using a heavier arrow.
> 
> using numbers from earlier in coops example with his d340... using the KE formula instead of the calculator(formula is better) its actually MORE efficient, showing and adjust IBO of 351 fps. (using his signature number of 295fps(he said that was at 30", not 31), 15gr on the string, for his 496gr arrow.
> 
> thats 3% more efficient with the 496gr arrow vs 350. not crazy, but its something, IF the bow meets draw weight spec.


sorry i need to clarify here. there is a 3% change in speed. i was moving too fast and didnt finish. 

running the calculated IBO number into the KE formula, then doing what i said, gives a 9.78% change in KE for the 496gr arrow vs 350gr arrow.


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## jaximus (Feb 23, 2015)

copterdoc said:


> You cannot disregard hysteresis when measuring efficiency. That's one of the efficiency losses that you get, when converting energy from one form to another.


im not disregarding it. its absolutely important. however, it is specific to the bow and does not change. completely independent of arrow weight. arrow weight has zero ability to change it. so when discussing arrow weight efficiency, its irrelevant.


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## jaximus (Feb 23, 2015)

copterdoc said:


> You aren't listening.
> 
> You *cannot* calculate IBO speed *without* using the 1 to 3.33 ratio.
> That's actually *what* you use, to calculate IBO speed!
> ...



i will slow down... 

KE(arrow) = (arrow weight in grains * arrow speed in fps ^2) / 450,800 
this formula gives ft-lbs of KE when entering grains and fps, thus the constant in the denominator.

IBO speed is measured at 30"/70# 350gr. thats the rating on the bow. thats measured. enter those numbers into the KE formula above (doesnt have 1 to 3.33 in it)

then chrono a heavier arrow. (this worked awesome for coop's 30"/70# bow) again, a measured number. enter those measured numbers into the KE formula above (still doesnt have the 1 to 3.33 in it). 

now, take the MEASURED KE from the heavier arrow and solve the KE equation for arrow speed, using 350gr as the arrow weight. rerun the equation with the new speed for the 'efficient' KE and then calculate the percentage change. 

if you dont have 30" and 70#, thats fine. chrono and light arrow and then chrono a heavy one. run the formulas the exact same as i outlined above.


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## copterdoc (Oct 9, 2005)

cooperjd said:


> Jax, here is how i calculated that 360 number.
> 
> went to an online calculator and entered 340 IBO, 30/70, and 15gr on the string. that yielded 335 fps from a 350gr arrow, which i tested through a chrono. so that was my baseline.
> 
> ...


 I am taking you at your word that your numbers are actual, and have been measured. I have no reason to believe that you'd fib about this.

Now, here's the (relevant) math.

Your baseline arrow, traveling at 335 FPS, carried 88 ft-lbs of energy. With a calculated IBO speed of 340 FPS.
Your 642 grain arrow, traveling at 268 FPS, carried 102 ft-lbs of energy, with a calculated IBO speed of 360 FPS.

That's a difference of 6% in IBO speed, but a difference of 16% in bow efficiency.


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## copterdoc (Oct 9, 2005)

jaximus said:


> i will slow down...
> 
> KE(arrow) = (arrow weight in grains * arrow speed in fps ^2) / 450,800
> this formula gives ft-lbs of KE when entering grains and fps, thus the constant in the denominator.
> ...


You are just confusing yourself. Read my last post, and do the math.

The whole problem with calculating IBO speed, is that the 1 to 3.33 ratio is *wrong*!


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## jaximus (Feb 23, 2015)

copterdoc said:


> You are just confusing yourself. Read my last post, and do the math.
> 
> The whole problem with calculating IBO speed, is that the 1 to 3.33 ratio is *wrong*!


where did you get 268fps for the 642gr arrow?


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## copterdoc (Oct 9, 2005)

jaximus said:


> where did you get 268fps for the 642gr arrow?


That's what an IBO calculator says you'll get when you shoot a 642 grain arrow from a 360 IBO bow, that only gets 335 FPS with a 350 gr arrow at 70/30, with 15 grains on the string.


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## jaximus (Feb 23, 2015)

copterdoc said:


> That's what an IBO calculator says you'll get when you shoot a 642 grain arrow from a 360 IBO bow, that only gets 335 FPS with a 350 gr arrow at 70/30, with 15 grains on the string.


yeah, i wasnt using calculators, i would like to know his chrono speed for that arrow. then we could use the KE formula to get what the IBO would be, then see the change in KE, the real efficiency difference.


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## copterdoc (Oct 9, 2005)

jaximus said:


> yeah, i wasnt using calculators, i would like to know his chrono speed for that arrow. then we could use the KE formula to get what the IBO would be, then see the change in KE, the real efficiency difference.


He's already provided all the info needed.

His 520 grain arrow is traveling at 292 FPS. 
At 98 ft-lbs of KE, that makes his bow 11.5% more efficient than it is with a 350 gr arrow.

But the IBO speed only increased by 2%, so (using IBO) he can't even see the difference in efficiency with his 299 FPS 496 gr arrow.


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## jaximus (Feb 23, 2015)

copterdoc said:


> He's already provided all the info needed.
> 
> His 520 grain arrow is traveling at 292 FPS.
> At 98 ft-lbs of KE, that makes his bow 11.5% more efficient than it is with a 350 gr arrow.
> ...


he gave a calculated number from an unnamed calculator. never a chrono number. 

but you are now calculating changes in efficiency, so problem solved, right?


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## copterdoc (Oct 9, 2005)

jaximus said:


> he gave a calculated number from an unnamed calculator. never a chrono number.
> 
> but you are now calculating changes in efficiency, so problem solved, right?


I'm taking him at his word that he chrono'd these speeds, and simply adjusted the IBO of the calculator to make the numbers match reality.


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## cooperjd (Aug 18, 2009)

Let me clarify something real quick...

i used this calc online:
http://archerycalculator.com/estimate-bow-speed/

first test, 350gr arrow, 15gr on string. 340 IBO bow at 30/70, that gave me 335fps, which i measured through my chrono.

at the 30/70, i also measured (and hunted with for years) a 520gr arrow at 285 fps. that IBO is 347.

same thing, just change arrow mass to 642gr, to get my measured 258 fps you input an IBO of 360.

I say "calculated IBO" because i used the online calc. once you get over 500 grains, i generally see a loss of 1fps per 4 grains of arrow mass, not 3.

I know i have other arrows in my sig, but i need to adjust those numbers since i went to a 31" draw instead of 30. my chrono does not work in the basement, and it snowed a foot today, so i'm not updating this week


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## copterdoc (Oct 9, 2005)

cooperjd said:


> Let me clarify something real quick...
> 
> i used this calc online:
> http://archerycalculator.com/estimate-bow-speed/
> ...


 That calculator assumes 1 FPS per 3 grains (Rather than 3.33). This means that with the IBO ratings remaining the same, it predicts that a heavier arrow's velocity will be reduced more severely...........

So.........

520/285 is 94 KE, and that's a 6.8% increase in efficiency.
642/258 is 94.8 KE, and that's an increase of 7.75% in efficiency.


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## jaximus (Feb 23, 2015)

when using the chrono'd numbers in the KE formula, you a more true picture of the actual story in the KE formula, instead of using the online calculators as there are no linear assumptions. 

measured inputs
350gr and 335fps yields 87.13 ft-lbs KE
520gr and 285fps yields 93.69 ft-lbs KE
642gr and 258fps yields 94.80 ft-lbs KE

working the KE formula, (no linear assumptions)
the 520gr arrow has a calculated IBO of 347fps (online calculator was close)
the 642gr arrow has a calculated IBO of 349fps (online calculator was way off) 

520gr arrow shows a 7.53% gain in efficiency
642gr arrow shows a 8.80% gain in efficiency

why this makes sense, look at the KE line in the archery report graphs linked earlier. the SLOPE of that line is the efficinecy gains, graph the slope(tangent) and you will see a direct correlation to all this math. the first few grains make the most difference, then it starts to taper off, the law of dininishing returns.


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## enewman (Jun 5, 2007)

jaximus said:


> when using the chrono'd numbers in the KE formula, you a more true picture of the actual story in the KE formula, instead of using the online calculators as there are no linear assumptions.
> 
> measured inputs
> 350gr and 335fps yields 87.13 ft-lbs KE
> ...


so, here is the question. we have a 8.8% gain in efficiency. to get that gain we had a lost of 30.8% in fps and a increase of 83.4% in mass. when doing it that way it doesnt look good does it hahaha. but we know if all other factors are equal the 642gr will always out penetrate. so, what do we look at for this. momentum. this means we had a increase of penetration potential of 41.3%. this atleast looks better when adding mass. always fun to play with numbers. and that is all it is.


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## jaximus (Feb 23, 2015)

enewman said:


> so, here is the question. we have a 8.8% gain in efficiency. to get that gain we had a lost of 30.8% in fps and a increase of 83.4% in mass. when doing it that way it doesnt look good does it hahaha. but we know if all other factors are equal the 642gr will always out penetrate. so, what do we look at for this. momentum. this means we had a increase of penetration potential of 41.3%. this atleast looks better when adding mass. always fun to play with numbers. and that is all it is.


absolutely correct! (i trust you did the math right, eric) the bow efficiency is what we were discussing and it isnt as drastic as some want to believe or portray, although there is an increase. the penetration potential of the heavier arrow does, however, go up quite a bit. but we knew that, and its a trade off between the increase in penetration potential and speed loss... back to square one... 

an interesting thing to note here... look at the FPS percentage loss, 30.8%, then the percentage efficiency gain 8.8% and the total penetration gain 41.3%, those numbers about balance out in a vacuum, but in the real world, it can only be done with mass.


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## nightvision (Aug 30, 2011)

josephmdrewniak said:


> . Guys get obsessed with penetration.........


What guy isn’t? Lol


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## cooperjd (Aug 18, 2009)

I shoot currently the 496gr arrows for my 70# bow. I am going to get some 30gr weights to bump them up a bit. I will tell you this, the 496's are very quiet out of that bow. it is well tuned, has cat whiskers on the string, limbsavers, etc... when i shoot the 642s out of that bow it barely makes a whisper. it is truly amazing how quiet it is, even to me shooting it. i always think my bows are loud until i have someone else shoot mine and i stand a few feet away. with the heavy arrows i know that thing is whisper quiet.


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## ember (Jul 23, 2004)

You do not need 650 grain arrow to take deer cleanly.
It will not increase any type of measureable odds at recovery.


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## plecavalier (Jan 10, 2008)

ember said:


> You do not need 650 grain arrow to take deer cleanly.
> It will not increase any type of measureable odds at recovery.


Haha by that token you don't need fire insurance for your house, a helmet for your ATV or a warranty on your car. If you haven't used any of that till now what are the odds right? There's a lot of things you don't need when you have a crystal ball. I guess I should look into getting one of those or maybe I could borrow yours?


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## mn5503 (Feb 21, 2006)

If this hasn’t been answered sufficiently in 39 pages, it’s not going to be.


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## mn5503 (Feb 21, 2006)

Oh, and the answer is....you don’t need a 650g arrow to kill whitetail deer anywhere on the planet.


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## plecavalier (Jan 10, 2008)

mn5503 said:


> Oh, and the answer is....you don’t need a 650g arrow to kill whitetail deer anywhere on the planet.


Why don't you trade your truck in for a Smart car? They sell roof racks for them. Should be good enough.


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## loujo61 (Apr 29, 2005)

copterdoc said:


> That calculator assumes 1 FPS per 3 grains (Rather than 3.33). This means that with the IBO ratings remaining the same, it predicts that a heavier arrow's velocity will be reduced more severely...........
> 
> So.........
> 
> ...


650-400=250/3.3=75.75 so you'll loose 75 fps going from a 400 grain arrow to a 650 grain arrow, that is over 25% of the IBO rated velocity on most of today's bows! If you want to shoot a compound bow at <75% of it's IBO rated speed at North East Whitetails then have at it.


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## Michshooter (Feb 21, 2016)

plecavalier said:


> Why don't you trade your truck in for a Smart car? They sell roof racks for them. Should be good enough.


I’ve hauled more than 90% of the pickup trucks on the road in my Honda Element.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## plecavalier (Jan 10, 2008)

Michshooter said:


> I’ve hauled more than 90% of the pickup trucks on the road in my Honda Element.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Element? That's too much space. Isn't a Fit good enough?


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## Michshooter (Feb 21, 2016)

plecavalier said:


> Element? That's too much space. Isn't a Fit good enough?


It’s a good middle ground....like a 450 to 550 gr. Arrow LOL


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## loujo61 (Apr 29, 2005)

plecavalier said:


> Element? That's too much space. Isn't a Fit good enough?


If a Honda Fit or a big truck hits you @55 mph while you're crossing the street on foot your bones will be breached.


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## gmbhunter (Mar 20, 2015)

Does anyone remember what our arrows weighed when we used aluminum shafts?


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## jaximus (Feb 23, 2015)

gmbhunter said:


> Does anyone remember what our arrows weighed when we used aluminum shafts?


i still have the first arrow i ever hunted with. a 29.5" 2117 tru-flite aluminum with a razorback 5 head still on it. 590gr and 9% FoC.


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## plecavalier (Jan 10, 2008)

jaximus said:


> i still have the first arrow i ever hunted with. a 29.5" 2117 tru-flite aluminum with a razorback 5 head still on it. 590gr and 9% FoC.


Exact same arrow I hunted with.


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## mn5503 (Feb 21, 2006)

plecavalier said:


> Why don't you trade your truck in for a Smart car? They sell roof racks for them. Should be good enough.


Sure if we're going to use it to kill deer, end result would be the same. Dead deer. Smart car = 1.358e+7 grains. Truck = 3.6512e+7 grains. Both will kill a deer exactly the same deadness.

If you want to go with mileage the Smart car will destroy my truck.

Silly comparison that I won't bother debating....


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## cooperjd (Aug 18, 2009)

loujo61 said:


> 650-400=250/3.3=75.75 so you'll loose 75 fps going from a 400 grain arrow to a 650 grain arrow, that is over 25% of the IBO rated velocity on most of today's bows! If you want to shoot a compound bow at <75% of it's IBO rated speed at North East Whitetails then have at it.


not that it's an enormous difference, but 3.3 grains per fps is not a linear loss as you go up in weight. after you cross 500gr arrow weight is more like 4 gr per fps. for my particular bow going from 350gr to 642gr i gained 292 gr of arrow, and lost 80 fps. 23.5% of the IBO speed is roughly what i lost. But what i would gain in penetration potential is a LOT.


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## cooperjd (Aug 18, 2009)

though for the arrows out of my 70# bow, going from a tested (never hunted with) 350gr arrow at 335 fps; to my long-time hunting arrows of 520gr at 285 fps.... i gained 170grains of arrow and lost 50 fps... that one averages out to 3.4gr per fps lost.


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## loujo61 (Apr 29, 2005)

cooperjd said:


> not that it's an enormous difference, but 3.3 grains per fps is not a linear loss as you go up in weight. after you cross 500gr arrow weight is more like 4 gr per fps. for my particular bow going from 350gr to 642gr i gained 292 gr of arrow, and lost 80 fps. 23.5% of the IBO speed is roughly what i lost. But what i would gain in penetration potential is a LOT.


You are 1" over IBO and #10 over IBO so you're 20 fps over the rating to start.


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## plecavalier (Jan 10, 2008)

mn5503 said:


> Sure if we're going to use it to kill deer, end result would be the same. Dead deer. Smart car = 1.358e+7 grains. Truck = 3.6512e+7 grains. Both will kill a deer exactly the same deadness.
> 
> If you want to go with mileage the Smart car will destroy my truck.
> 
> Silly comparison that I won't bother debating....


Wasn't making a literal comparison. I was trying to make a point but you know all that...


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## cooperjd (Aug 18, 2009)

loujo61 said:


> You are 1" over IBO and #10 over IBO so you're 20 fps over the rating to start.


all my numbers were at 70/30. don't look at the numbers in my sig. they are close but not dead on.


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## loujo61 (Apr 29, 2005)

cooperjd said:


> all my numbers were at 70/30. don't look at the numbers in my sig. they are close but not dead on.


OK. You have plenty to work with as do I with my long draw 280 fps is all I want to hunt with.


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## Fortyneck (Oct 8, 2010)

loujo61 said:


> 650-400=250/3.3=75.75 so you'll loose 75 fps going from a 400 grain arrow to a 650 grain arrow, that is over 25% of the IBO rated velocity on most of today's bows! If you want to shoot a compound bow at <75% of it's IBO rated speed at North East Whitetails then have at it.


But IBO goes up with a heavier arrow...


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## copterdoc (Oct 9, 2005)

Fortyneck said:


> But IBO goes up with a heavier arrow...


No, it doesn't.
*Calculated* IBO goes up with a heavier arrow. Simply because the 1 to 3.33 (or 1 to 3) ratio only serves as a guess.

Actual IBO, only goes up with a longer power stroke (shorter brace height), or.........

(1.) Something is done to the bow to require more energy investment at 70#/30". (Lower let-off%, steeper DFC, shorter valley, etc)
(2.) Something is done to the bow to improve its efficiency specifically at 70#/30"/150 gr. (Reduced hysteresis, lighter weight moving components, speed nocks, etc)


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## plecavalier (Jan 10, 2008)

copterdoc said:


> No, it doesn't.
> *Calculated* IBO goes up with a heavier arrow. Simply because the 1 to 3.33 (or 1 to 3) ratio only serves as a guess.
> 
> Actual IBO, only goes up with a longer power stroke (shorter brace height), or.........
> ...


IBO equivalency, despite it not being real, allows us to understand what has been gained and/or lost. I've seen bows with an IBO of 300 have an equivalent of almost 400 with a 1000gn arrow. No I can't shoot a 350gn arrow 400fps with that bow but the point of the exercise is to show you get more out of the bow with a heavier slower arrow than a lighter faster one. But again it comes back to people refusing to believe anything more than their current beliefs based on what they've seen to date. It's normal but when you start debating on a stage like this it's out of place.


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## SDguy (Jun 20, 2005)

Blade1970 said:


> I know I will get some crap for posting this. Just a little feedback. I have bow hunted every single year since 85 and have harvested over 300 dear because I live on a farm with a crop damage stamp. My old bow shot 302 fps and I used a gold tip at 8.2 grains per inch with spitfire tips (100 grain) and since I hunt on the ground I always get a straight pass through on a deer. I see so many new hunters going with much heavier arrows. Almost all the misses in archery is due to the drop of the arrow and yet it seems like the new trend is to hunt with these heavy arrows. Mine goes stright through sometimes 30-40 yrds past where I hit the deer. Did I miss something in the last few years for the heavy arrow thing?


Seems like you have a recipe that works for you. The guys that shoot a different recipe that works for them al be it a heavy arrow and quiet bow works for them.


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## plecavalier (Jan 10, 2008)

SDguy said:


> Seems like you have a recipe that works for you. The guys that shoot a different recipe that works for them al be it a heavy arrow and quiet bow works for them.


Exactly. And to me if this person asking a question like that actually took the time to build that Arrow and shoot it they would be able to. and if after shooting if they still haven't a clue why someone would build that Arrow at least they wouldn't make such an instigating post but rather would ask uninterested question. One thing I've always found both frustrating and funny at the same time when this debate comes up is that the majority of guys posting here that are shooting lighter hours I've never tried a real heavy Arrow whereas the majority of the guys shooting a real heavy Arrow have shot extremely light and everything in between. Yet somehow we're all posting out of vast experiences and knowledge.


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## GRIMWALD (Sep 28, 2012)

I am going to preface my comment by saying I haven't read the entire thread and I am not going to but there is one inescapable fact that seems to get lost on this and similar threads.
A " heavy arrow" is a subjective term, a 650 grain arrow being shot from a 25 lb. draw weight bow, in my opinion would be a heavy arrow. On the other hand, I shoot a 1250 grain arrow, which most would consider a "heavy arrow". Until you take into account that my long bow has a draw weight of 160 lbs.. At less than 8 grain per pound of draw weight, my arrow "should" be considered a light weight arrow.
Context is a major factor in consideration and shouldn't be ignored.


GRIM


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## jaximus (Feb 23, 2015)

GRIMWALD said:


> I am going to preface my comment by saying I haven't read the entire thread and I am not going to but there is one inescapable fact that seems to get lost on this and similar threads.
> A " heavy arrow" is a subjective term, a 650 grain arrow being shot from a 25 lb. draw weight bow, in my opinion would be a heavy arrow. On the other hand, I shoot a 1250 grain arrow, which most would consider a "heavy arrow". Until you take into account that my long bow has a draw weight of 160 lbs.. At less than 8 grain per pound of draw weight, my arrow "should" be considered a light weight arrow.
> Context is a major factor in consideration and shouldn't be ignored.
> 
> ...


we covered that, somewhat briefly, with discussions if gpp and the context of the whole setups and arrow systems.

in terms of this thread though, i can only assume it is directed at ashbys consistent bone breach threshhold, which is purely an arrow weight number of 650gr. it makes no mention of gpp or any bow poundage number. in fact he tests it with his 40# recurve and 60-80# compounds. 

ive been pretty pushy with my desire to get people to post their setups to give more context when discussing arrow weight. everyone views posts with their own ideas in mind, ego-centric. im a compound guy, so all the trad and warbow talk is kind of foreign to me. so in your case with a 160# warbow, if you simply just commented that you shot a 1250gr arrow, i would think you are a little crazy if i didnt know the back story.


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## plecavalier (Jan 10, 2008)

GRIMWALD said:


> I am going to preface my comment by saying I haven't read the entire thread and I am not going to but there is one inescapable fact that seems to get lost on this and similar threads.
> A " heavy arrow" is a subjective term, a 650 grain arrow being shot from a 25 lb. draw weight bow, in my opinion would be a heavy arrow. On the other hand, I shoot a 1250 grain arrow, which most would consider a "heavy arrow". Until you take into account that my long bow has a draw weight of 160 lbs.. At less than 8 grain per pound of draw weight, my arrow "should" be considered a light weight arrow.
> Context is a major factor in consideration and shouldn't be ignored.
> 
> ...


Definitely one of the reasons these threads don't work from the get-go or even make much sense for that matter. Context only seems to have value for guys that don't fit the norm. What's intriguing is our IBO system is way outside the norm. Guys pulling 70/28 never mention they're 2" short.

We've mentioned it a few times in this post how important grains per pound is. And you still get a ton of people writing "550 works great for me" with zero mention of draw weight or length. The majority or guys even in archery which is typically highly technical, people don't bother with details.


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## jaximus (Feb 23, 2015)

plecavalier said:


> Definitely one of the reasons these threads don't work from the get-go or even make much sense for that matter. Context only seems to have value for guys that don't fit the norm. What's intriguing is our IBO system is way outside the norm. Guys pulling 70/28 never mention they're 2" short.
> 
> We've mentioned it a few times in this post how important grains per pound is. And you still get a ton of people writing "550 works great for me" with zero mention of draw weight or length. The majority or guys even in archery which is typically highly technical, people don't bother with details.


we said the same stuff at the same time! 

i dont recall ashbys DL, but he did pick the number of 650gr without attaching any sort of qualifiers to it. would he have picked a different number if his specs were different?


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## plecavalier (Jan 10, 2008)

jaximus said:


> we said the same stuff at the same time!
> 
> i dont recall ashbys DL, but he did pick the number of 650gr without attaching any sort of qualifiers to it. would he have picked a different number if his specs were different?


No because the basis for the test was for all bowhunters. He found that iregardless of draw length and weight 650 yields better odds of bone breach. It's up to each person to weigh their specs against what makes sense with what their trying to achieve. If you look at the tests when he uses a 40# vs his go-to 80# you sort have that energy gap embedded. Same when he tested with compounds. And that's why guys always saying his tests aren't relevant because of the whole longbow vs modern isn't applicable isn't true. It's a baseline for everyone.yo build off of.


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## ember (Jul 23, 2004)

ember said:


> You do not need 650 grain arrow to take deer cleanly.
> It will not increase any type of measureable odds at recovery.


Measurable.


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## plecavalier (Jan 10, 2008)

ember said:


> Measurable.


So how do you draw that conclusion?


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## ember (Jul 23, 2004)

A hunter does not need a 650 grain arrow to take deer consistantly and cleanly.


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## ember (Jul 23, 2004)

Years and years of data.

I hunt with a 560 grain arrow with 15% FOC and it does just fine.


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## plecavalier (Jan 10, 2008)

ember said:


> Years and years of data.
> 
> I hunt with a 560 grain arrow with 15% FOC and it does just fine.


I would not expect to see a night and day difference from 560 to 650. Unless you're pulling 80 lbs at 32. Your 560 grain arrow is not a featherweight.

So yeah probably not measurable because a kill is a kill. But stating that as a blanket statement as you obviously know is far from the truthand is only relevant to you and anyone who has the same specs as you shooting an already heavy Arrow.


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## plecavalier (Jan 10, 2008)

Also when you write "data" you need to specify.

There's a huge difference between hunting and learning what works, what doesn't..etc. And buckling down and doing testing while documenting the results.

For example, if you say years and years. If that's hunting with a 560gn arrow but always shooting for double lung and never hitting bone you could just as easily had a 350gn arrow or a 1000gn arrow. The difference would not be measurable.

On the other hand, as soon as you hit bone, real bone like leg or spine on a bad shot, the difference would absolutely be measurable.

Like we're just touched on above, context makes all the difference.


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## ember (Jul 23, 2004)

I am only shooting 185 fps and make 40lbs. KE.

The question was do you need a 650 grain arrow to hunt whitetail deer?

Not a PH.D. thesis. What you need is a head you can shave your head with.


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## plecavalier (Jan 10, 2008)

ember said:


> I am only shooting 185 fps and make 40lbs. KE.


Interesting. So much like me you're completely over on the flip side of things. I'm 185 as well but with 775gn. But again, if we both shoot through rib and lung it won't be a measurable difference. At any weight. 

So you either have a very short/low draw or are sporting a recurve to only get 185 with 560?


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## ember (Jul 23, 2004)

plecav - I understand your position, and it is valid.


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## plecavalier (Jan 10, 2008)

ember said:


> plecav - I understand your position, and it is valid.


A keep to yourself kinda guy I take it; I respect that.


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## enewman (Jun 5, 2007)

jaximus said:


> we said the same stuff at the same time!
> 
> i dont recall ashbys DL, but he did pick the number of 650gr without attaching any sort of qualifiers to it. would he have picked a different number if his specs were different?


He did not pick that number. He tested different draw weights. On compounds and trad. Bone breach increased dramatically around 630gr I believe. It’s in that range. At around 650gr is where it was breaching 100%. Thst was not just a number that was a test. 

As far as draw length. I can’t remember. But he did talk about where and with what. I believe bone breach was done with a 650gr at .57 momentum with 3 to 1 single bevel. So with those numbers given you do not need to know draw weight or draw length. You have the many factors to caculate.

There are lots of charts in his papers. All show the data. As to what did what. It’s been awhile so I would have to go look. 
What we do know is starting around 630gr it didn’t matter a lot on what it was shot from this is the mass that it took to start breaking things. In physics mass is what matters. As long as all other factors are equal. Momentum numbers don’t really matter. And even less for ke


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## jaximus (Feb 23, 2015)

enewman said:


> He did not pick that number. He tested different draw weights. On compounds and trad. Bone breach increased dramatically around 630gr I believe. It’s in that range. At around 650gr is where it was breaching 100%. Thst was not just a number that was a test.
> 
> As far as draw length. I can’t remember. But he did talk about where and with what. I believe bone breach was done with a 650gr at .57 momentum with 3 to 1 single bevel. So with those numbers given you do not need to know draw weight or draw length. You have the many factors to caculate.
> 
> ...


i brushed up on the bone numbers again last light. it did start at 630gr and go above 650 for pyramid heads. 

so at 650gr the context doesnt matter, just weight. i wonder if theres a reverse of that as well, with speed, like how a tornado can imbed straw into a 2x4.


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## enewman (Jun 5, 2007)

jaximus said:


> i brushed up on the bone numbers again last light. it did start at 630gr and go above 650 for pyramid heads.
> 
> so at 650gr the context doesnt matter, just weight. i wonder if theres a reverse of that as well, with speed, like how a tornado can imbed straw into a 2x4.


I would think so, but not sure we can reach that speed needed. not with a bow anyway.


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## plecavalier (Jan 10, 2008)

enewman said:


> I would think so, but not sure we can reach that speed needed. not with a bow anyway.


That's exactly what I was referred about 30 pages ago. Where to buy there exists a ratio of matched forces or energy and without doing the actual scientific work behind it which someone should do I'm guesstimating it to be somewhere around 40% even 50% in some cases.

So if the number were to be right and I'm not saying it is cuz I haven't done the work but if it was that means to match my 650 at 200 a 350 would have to be traveling 400. Which as we know is not currently possible.

One thing for sure is it's not anywhere near one-to-one ratio.


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## cooperjd (Aug 18, 2009)

jaximus said:


> i brushed up on the bone numbers again last light. it did start at 630gr and go above 650 for pyramid heads.
> 
> so at 650gr the context doesnt matter, just weight. i wonder if theres a reverse of that as well, with speed, like how a tornado can imbed straw into a 2x4.


That's an interesting thought. My inclination would be that with the current 5gr per pound minimum; we will never reach the reverse of that with speed. I have no idea how to actually quantify that though. a 100#, 32" speed bow with a 500gr arrow might be blasingly fast, but as you increase draw weight to try and build speed you also get closer and closer to ashby's 650 number as a minimum arrow weight. Not a lot of folks would say that 500gr is on the light side for deer....so in that case would you really be getting penetration via speed or mass?

if you went the high country route and built bows/arrows that will shoot down to 3gr /lb (IIRC), now that 70/30 IBO bow will be shooting a 210gr arrow. The online calc i plugged into says my 70# D340 at 30" would sling that arrow at 382 fps. pretty speedy, and a full throttle may get closer to 400 fps. i'll still take the slower heavier arrow, but it'd be neat for someone to test. anyone with a HCA bow and super light arrow???


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## Bill 2311 (Jun 24, 2005)

I have found that a 20% increase in arrow weight does not result in 20% loss in velocity.
When things don't go as planned, the extra momentum gained via a heavy arrow really helps push an arrow through a deer. Deer turn so angles are bad and long, shoulders are hit etc.

I have killed a bunch with 390-430 grain arrows going 305 to 330 fps. I have also gone with full length aluminums. Each works... you need to decide how much arrow weight you want to use with the corresponding velocity.


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## hoyt fo life555 (Jan 31, 2005)

A 770 gr arrow traveling 185fps. Drops 84 inches @40 yards. 267 inches @70 yards.
A 360 gr. Arrow “. 310fps. Drops 31 inches @40 yards. 123 inches @ 70 yards
A 650 gr, “. “ 253fps. Drops 46 inches @40 yards. 144 inches @ 70 yards
All of those speeds are probably faster then most people are shooting, but that’s about what many claim to be shooting.
All have above .40 momentum at 70 yards
I am not for or against heavy arrows, nor lighter faster arrows. I just know if I put the arrow ( what ever weight it is) where it should go, I have no problem killing them, and getting pass throughs the vast majority of the time.


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## schreib (Jul 16, 2011)

Alaska at heart said:


> I hunt deer and turkeys with a 420gr Easton Axis arrow and do just fine, but killed my moose in AK shooting a recurve with a 565gr arrow and very sharp two blade Magnus head. I was definitely under 200fps on my 23-24 yard shot, but blew through the bull and lost my arrow on the back side in the alders. My AK friend went back after leaves had dropped and found my arrow about 15 yards beyond the spot the moose was standing. THAT is why a heavier arrow works well in the field on real game. Whether it is "necessary" is up to the individual shooting that weight of arrow.....who am I to judge?


This response offers the best answer and conclusions one could have for arrow weight vs speed. SIMPLE: Shoot a heavy arrow for heavier boned target and, if you want, a lighter one for smaller boned target. As it turns out this moose shot mostly did not need that full 565 gr arrow the poster used because he GOT a pass through. However, if he had hit an alder that deflected the arrow into bone he would have had a LOT better chance of recovering it than with a 300 odd grain arrow. JMO.

I can add only one caveat: Unless you can be _sure_ you will not hit a big bone on your target it makes most sense to use a heavier arrow as insurance. Like the video in the first few responses shows quite well, hitting a deer's shoulder is a sure way to not collect it unless the bone is broken. 

Common sense from contributors here(not myself) with BIG game hunting experience strongly suggests that if that deer had been hit in that same place with a rifle bullet, OR a slow, 650 grain two bladed broadhead, it _very likely_ would have been tagged.


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## hoyt fo life555 (Jan 31, 2005)

There was a show on the other night were a guy killed a black bear with a blow dart. I believe he got a pass through, or said he did at times. That thing can’t weigh more then a couple ounces, if that. Sorry not sure of the guys name, I don’t watch hunting shows. But was flipping channels and seen so I had to watch.


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## thirdhandman (Nov 2, 2009)

Threads like this are amusing to me. There are a lot of things that affect penetration. If the animal is turning, as an example when the arrow reaches its mark, the penetration will suffer regardless of arrow weight. Speed may have gotten the arrow there quicker avoiding the turning motion, making better penetration. If the arrow touches a branch ever so slightly, penetration will suffer. Speed may have gone over the branch making for better penetration. If one makes a bad shot and hits heavy bone, the heavier arrow will help, but doesn't guarantee the kill. I don't believe there is a golden bullet for every shot. I believe in a good sharp broadhead on a 300 grain arrow and a well placed shot will kill better than a 500 grain arrow shot at 250fps in a heavy bone.JMOYMMV


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## deadquiet (Jan 25, 2005)

thirdhandman said:


> Threads like this are amusing to me. There are a lot of things that affect penetration. If the animal is turning, as an example when the arrow reaches its mark, the penetration will suffer regardless of arrow weight. Speed may have gotten the arrow there quicker avoiding the turning motion, making better penetration. If the arrow touches a branch ever so slightly, penetration will suffer. Speed may have gone over the branch making for better penetration. If one makes a bad shot and hits heavy bone, the heavier arrow will help, but doesn't guarantee the kill. I don't believe there is a golden bullet for every shot. I believe in a good sharp broadhead on a 300 grain arrow and a well placed shot will kill better than a 500 grain arrow shot at 250fps in a heavy bone.JMOYMMV


But you can play that game all day......What if a quiet(er) shot cause the animal not to turn, what if the 250 FPS heavier arrow went under (or over father) a branch because of the loop that yours would have hit, what if they both were good shots, what if the bone stopped your light arrow just a few inches short of a lethal kill and that extra few inches punctured the heart?

My point is in reality it can go both ways if you play the what if game. I still think it's best to set the system up to benefit your hunting style but what do I know...…...lol 

One size fits all will always leave you comfortably mediocre.


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## hunterhewi (Jun 12, 2010)

Guess these 658 grain turkey decapitators are just way too much for these little ol turkey noggins..... they do shoot like darts out to 50 yards though! Idk the speed, at 80/30 its plenty fast for sure

Some advice for everyone, shoot what you want and what you are comfortable and confident with. Stop criticizing others for how they hunt or what they choose to hunt with!


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## roosiebull (Oct 3, 2010)

hoyt fo life555 said:


> A 770 gr arrow traveling 185fps. Drops 84 inches @40 yards. 267 inches @70 yards.
> A 360 gr. Arrow “. 310fps. Drops 31 inches @40 yards. 123 inches @ 70 yards
> A 650 gr, “. “ 253fps. Drops 46 inches @40 yards. 144 inches @ 70 yards
> All of those speeds are probably faster then most people are shooting, but that’s about what many claim to be shooting.
> ...





thirdhandman said:


> Threads like this are amusing to me. There are a lot of things that affect penetration. If the animal is turning, as an example when the arrow reaches its mark, the penetration will suffer regardless of arrow weight. Speed may have gotten the arrow there quicker avoiding the turning motion, making better penetration. If the arrow touches a branch ever so slightly, penetration will suffer. Speed may have gone over the branch making for better penetration. If one makes a bad shot and hits heavy bone, the heavier arrow will help, but doesn't guarantee the kill. I don't believe there is a golden bullet for every shot. I believe in a good sharp broadhead on a 300 grain arrow and a well placed shot will kill better than a 500 grain arrow shot at 250fps in a heavy bone.JMOYMMV


that is why these conversations always turn into a long drawn out argument.... there are LOTS of ways to look at this stuff. everyone wants to think what they do is the "best" way, and also why I don't advocate for a specific arrow set-up for everyone. everyone wants to be right (and they think differing opinions are wrong)

I think a person should build an arrow that they are confident in, and suits them well, and focus on perfect arrow flight, and shooting your bow well enough to achieve perfect arrow flight in a hunting situation. I have shot all different arrow weights from 370gr-642gr.... they all worked very well when I do my part, and none were magical. I have went through stuff I shouldn't have with light arrows, and not made it through stuff I should have with heavy arrows.... every scenario is different, which is a good reason to avoid "extremes"

having the experiences I have (and witnessing many more) I think it's ignorant to say my setup is far superior to the next guy's.... for reason XYZ.... if folks were a little more open minded, these threads could have way more useful info and different perspectives, but everyone thinks they're right, so it's always pages of pizzing matches


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## roosiebull (Oct 3, 2010)

deadquiet said:


> But you can play that game all day......What if a quiet(er) shot cause the animal not to turn, what if the 250 FPS heavier arrow went under (or over father) a branch because of the loop that yours would have hit, what if they both were good shots, what if the bone stopped your light arrow just a few inches short of a lethal kill and that extra few inches punctured the heart?
> 
> My point is in reality it can go both ways if you play the what if game. I still think it's best to set the system up to benefit your hunting style but what do I know...…...lol
> 
> One size fits all will always leave you comfortably mediocre.





hunterhewi said:


> Guess these 658 grain turkey decapitators are just way too much for these little ol turkey noggins..... they do shoot like darts out to 50 yards though! Idk the speed, at 80/30 its plenty fast for sure
> 
> Some advice for everyone, shoot what you want and what you are comfortable and confident with. Stop criticizing others for how they hunt or what they choose to hunt with!
> 
> View attachment 6798841


Amen!


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## jaximus (Feb 23, 2015)

hunterhewi said:


> Guess these 658 grain turkey decapitators are just way too much for these little ol turkey noggins..... they do shoot like darts out to 50 yards though! Idk the speed, at 80/30 its plenty fast for sure
> 
> Some advice for everyone, shoot what you want and what you are comfortable and confident with. Stop criticizing others for how they hunt or what they choose to hunt with!
> 
> View attachment 6798841


surprised you went with the 100s and not 125s with your setup!


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## plecavalier (Jan 10, 2008)

750gn grouse and rabbit arrow w/ 135gn glue on judo, 40gn adapter, 100gn insert, 40gn footer and 5" spiral fluflu 21%FoC

Hit rocks, trees, dried roots you name it, spins straight, put it back in the quiver.


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## hunterhewi (Jun 12, 2010)

jaximus said:


> surprised you went with the 100s and not 125s with your setup!


Ive had the same results with the 100s, i just like the smaller diameter


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## Rousselle (Apr 14, 2019)

"so at 650gr the context doesnt matter, just weight. i wonder if theres a reverse of that as well, with speed, like how a tornado can imbed straw into a 2x4"

I was reading all these arguments (bit disappointed with the rudeness of some people) and thinking about KE and the balance of speed and mass and the arguments people were making 'pro-mass'. And I thought what about how tornadoes imbed straw in fence posts - then scrolled down and bam there it was. Spooky.

My opinion on all this (Not that I'm saying it's worth much) is that there is probably a sweet spot for a given bow. To get maximum effective energy, surely you would test your bow with various arrow weights until you got either no significant increase in speed (So dropping arrow weight would become pointless) or alternatively increase arrow weights until speeds begin to drop dramatically meaning the bow is no longer working efficiently.

Also, I shoot competition 3D and hunt (Badly). My preference is for reasonable arrow weight (there used to be a stipulation in NZ that arrows were a minimum of 400gr, although that does not seem to be the case anymore) around 350 -500gr, so that I can shoot reasonably flat in competitions and still carry enough arrow weight for hunting, without changing my set-up. I should mention I'm shooting recurve (traditional) these days, so want lots of practice, including club shoots, and don't want to change my set-up so my 'gaps' remain consistent. Would only shoot out to a max of 30yrds when hunting (On a good day) so probably could shoot heavy arrows without significantly changing gaps I guess.

This response was longer than I meant it to be lol.

Cheers, Campbell


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## enewman (Jun 5, 2007)

Rousselle said:


> "so at 650gr the context doesnt matter, just weight. i wonder if theres a reverse of that as well, with speed, like how a tornado can imbed straw into a 2x4"
> 
> I was reading all these arguments (bit disappointed with the rudeness of some people) and thinking about KE and the balance of speed and mass and the arguments people were making 'pro-mass'. And I thought what about how tornadoes imbed straw in fence posts - then scrolled down and bam there it was. Spooky.
> 
> ...


When looking at the efficiency of a bow, speed is not how we do this. You look at k.e. I’ve personally tested to 1550 and the bow was still extremely efficient. 

For a person not knowing what a good weight is can take a few years. Best way is to read, test, then go hunt. 

Things to remember when building a great hunting arrow. Physics, this means mass. The amount of mass you need is determined by what animal you are hunting, what type of broadhead, and the trajectory you want. This means you might be hunting with a 425gr arrow to a 1000gr.


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## pottergreg (Mar 20, 2015)

I think it is the total system and the game, archer (pounds/draw length and skill), arrow weight and speed, and the broad head is very important. Everyone's needs and ability are different. So different strokes for different folks. I am 67 and no longer want to shoot 70+ pounds, fortunately I have a 31" draw. I chose to shoot 56 pounds because I can pull it easily/slowly sitting down in my tree stand hunting whitetails. I shoot a 500 grain arrow (Easton Hexx) with a 3" feather at 275 fps with a 200 grain COC Cutthroat polished on 3000 grit sandpaper to a mirror finish on a KME broad head sharpener (way past shaving sharp) with a 24% FOC. My bow is very quiet and well tuned and accurate. It does exactly what I need every time without fail! If your set-up works for you, I'm happy for you! If I was hunting antelope out west I would use a @425 grain skinny 4 fletch (small) arrow. Hogs I might go up to a 650 grain arrow!


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## EZ shot (May 6, 2009)

I hunt hogs and they are very thicked skinned.. They get better penetration.


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## RavinHood (Sep 17, 2015)

masonselph said:


> I hunt hogs and they are very thicked skinned.. They get better penetration.


X2 i like it


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## jaximus (Feb 23, 2015)

masonselph said:


> I hunt hogs and they are very thicked skinned.. They get better penetration.


but the OP is about whitetails in the northeast, not about pigs.


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## christianslick (Aug 2, 2018)

Ended up making some arrows pushing over 500gr after getting through this thread awhile back


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## plecavalier (Jan 10, 2008)

christianslick said:


> Ended up making some arrows pushing over 500gr after getting through this thread awhile back


Arrow Mass? Check!


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## deadquiet (Jan 25, 2005)

pottergreg said:


> I think it is the total system and the game, archer (pounds/draw length and skill), arrow weight and speed, and the broad head is very important. Everyone's needs and ability are different. So different strokes for different folks. I am 67 and no longer want to shoot 70+ pounds, fortunately I have a 31" draw. I chose to shoot 56 pounds because I can pull it easily/slowly sitting down in my tree stand hunting whitetails. I shoot a 500 grain arrow (Easton Hexx) with a 3" feather at 275 fps with a 200 grain COC Cutthroat polished on 3000 grit sandpaper to a mirror finish on a KME broad head sharpener (way past shaving sharp) with a 24% FOC. My bow is very quiet and well tuned and accurate. It does exactly what I need every time without fail! If your set-up works for you, I'm happy for you! If I was hunting antelope out west I would use a @425 grain skinny 4 fletch (small) arrow. Hogs I might go up to a 650 grain arrow!


That's what the experienced folks are doing IMO. Like you said so many folks say, "I shoot 56 pounds so what arrow weight should I shoot? " Well like you mentioned if I shoot 64 pounds I'll roughly gain 12- 15 FPS over you so I'm better off right? Maybe, maybe not because HERE is the kicker. With my 28 inch draw I lose roughly 30 FPS compared to you due to that! Probably worth consideration if you think about it. 

So you at 56 actually have a bow shooting 15 FPS faster than I do at 64 if we had identical bows...……..lol. Then when you start looking at arrow weight, broad head choices, different bow models all these abstract numbers people like to use are pointless and show a lack of seeing the bigger picture if you stop and think about it. 

So if people want to entertain questions like, "why shoot a 650 grain arrow" or "should I shoot a 100 grain tip or move to a 125"or "you NEED to shoot a COC" or any other question where the OP doesn't realize that it's about a "system" rather than any 1 thing alone that's all fine and dandy but it's so vague it's pointless and frustrating to keep banging our heads against the wall trying to point this out so we can educate archers. But hey it leads to 42 page threads we all get to enjoy...…...lol


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## plecavalier (Jan 10, 2008)

deadquiet said:


> That's what the experienced folks are doing IMO. Like you said so many folks say, "I shoot 56 pounds so what arrow weight should I shoot? " Well like you mentioned if I shoot 64 pounds I'll roughly gain 12- 15 FPS over you so I'm better off right? Maybe, maybe not because HERE is the kicker. With my 28 inch draw I lose roughly 30 FPS compared to you due to that! Probably worth consideration if you think about it.
> 
> So you at 56 actually have a bow shooting 15 FPS faster than I do at 64 if we had identical bows...……..lol. Then when you start looking at arrow weight, broad head choices, different bow models all these abstract numbers people like to use are pointless and show a lack of seeing the bigger picture if you stop and think about it.
> 
> So if people want to entertain questions like, "why shoot a 650 grain arrow" or "should I shoot a 100 grain tip or move to a 125"or "you NEED to shoot a COC" or any other question where the OP doesn't realize that it's about a "system" rather than any 1 thing alone that's all fine and dandy but it's so vague it's pointless and frustrating to keep banging our heads against the wall trying to point this out so we can educate archers. But hey it leads to 42 page threads we all get to enjoy...…...lol


I like to call it a "killing system". Encompasses everything from the Archer, style of archery, the ACH component of the gear, how it's configured, what animal(s) will be hunted and under what circumstances. Heck even the bowhunters tendencies aka risky shots vs conservative play a huge role. One-off questions in archery are plainly ridiculous which is also why I don't tend to get along with guys who apply a "good enough" or "it ain't that complicated" approach. It's archery boys, no one said it was supposed to be easy yet everyone is constantly trying to find shortcuts...


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## enewman (Jun 5, 2007)

plecavalier said:


> I like to call it a "killing system". Encompasses everything from the Archer, style of archery, the ACH component of the gear, how it's configured, what animal(s) will be hunted and under what circumstances. Heck even the bowhunters tendencies aka risky shots vs conservative play a huge role. One-off questions in archery are plainly ridiculous which is also why I don't tend to get along with guys who apply a "good enough" or "it ain't that complicated" approach. It's archery boys, no one said it was supposed to be easy yet everyone is constantly trying to find shortcuts...


you will always have people that look at the physics side of it. and ones that do not.


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## plecavalier (Jan 10, 2008)

enewman said:


> you will always have people that look at the physics side of it. and ones that do not.


If only there were a group that only cared about physics... We could talk all day without even the potential for arguments...lol


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## enewman (Jun 5, 2007)

plecavalier said:


> If only there were a group that only cared about physics... We could talk all day without even the potential for arguments...lol


if only.


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## Lien2 (Aug 4, 2005)

Wow......only on AT can one simple question turn into 42 pages.


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## enewman (Jun 5, 2007)

Lien2 said:


> Wow......only on AT can one simple question turn into 42 pages.


hahaha, every day. but lots of times when this happens and you know how to weed things out. there is lots of great information.


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## copterdoc (Oct 9, 2005)

plecavalier said:


> If only there were a group that only cared about physics... We could talk all day without even the potential for arguments...lol


Physics also involves the concepts of velocity and time. 
Two things that you choose to completely disregard when selecting your "killing system".


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## loujo61 (Apr 29, 2005)

copterdoc said:


> Physics also involves the concepts of velocity and time.
> Two things that you choose to completely disregard when selecting your "killing system".


Yup, how true.


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## plecavalier (Jan 10, 2008)

copterdoc said:


> Physics also involves the concepts of velocity and time.
> Two things that you choose to completely disregard when selecting your "killing system".


Now why is it you feel comfortable calling me out like that copter? You really think you know my setup well enough to go down that rabbit hole? You need an awful lot of detail about a guy to state he's completely disregarding something he's spent years upon years perfecting without embarrassing yourself.


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