# Dissatisfied Dissatisfied PSE DEALER



## Marty H (Mar 17, 2003)

I have been a PSE dealer for the last eleven years.My bills have always been payed on time.Over the years I have purchased alot of product from this company.
My store is located in Bennington Vt,I have several customers who will drive several hour to shop at my store on a weekly bases.
One customer in particular drives approx. two hours a couple of times a week.The northeast PSE REP has signed him up to be a staff shooter for my store,he was also allowed by this same rep to attend a dealer school.
This customer shoots 3D all over New England as well as the worlds every year.He brings many customers to my store to purchase bows & many othere products.On some years this customer may purchase four or five bows for his personal use.
This year this customer has also purchased several bows from my store including two Archery Research bows.He came to my my store & bought these bows with cash.He has not resold either of these bows.
My PSE REP called me on 7/27 & informed me that I couldn't sell this customer anymore bows or I would be stripped of my dealership.I explained to him that this customer had come in my store & purchased these bow,they were also sold for the regular sell price with no discount.I told the REP if he was going to tell me who I could & couldn't sell bows to that I would be returning my pse & archery research products.He told me that he would have me a return authorization by the end of the day on7/28.By midday on7/30 I still had not heard from him.I was than forced to get rid of these bows any way I could.I have taken sale ads out in a several papers in & out of town to move these bows at a discounted price.
I also talked with this reps boss at the factory he was going to go with what his rep had told him.The northeast Rep had lied to his boss saying that I had one customer reselling bows for me.He also told him that one of my part time employes was bringing bows to his town & selling them.this is an outright lie.
This same REP also goes to the Springfield Mass Sportsmans show & sells these same products at a discounted price to my customers who attend this show for his favorite account.Some of these products are sold for less than ten dollars profit.
In short PSE can keep there product if I will be restricted as to who can walk in my store & purchase them.There rep can sell product to my customers but I can't sell my stuff to certain people who come to my store.Seems one way with him.
Dissatisfied Pse dealer
P.S It is now 8/2 & I still have not recieved a return # I guess they don't care about any of there Northeast dealers.


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## robk (Jun 10, 2002)

i htink i would be calling jon sheply as well as pete and see what is going on here. it sound slike the guy has made some deals with your customer or customers to put them on the pse team for soem reason. or write a letter to jon and pete and see if you can find out why this is happening and get it fixed 
rob k


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## Meatco1 (Apr 9, 2004)

*That Stinks!*

Hello:

I hope you get this resolved. I for one would like to know the outcome.

I wouldn't tolerate this dictator like behavior either.

Richard


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## elkfever (Jul 10, 2002)

I would go to the top of the food chain on this one.


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## jim p (Oct 29, 2003)

It sounds like the fellow who lied now has all the pse business in your area. This seems like a pretty good business move on his part. If you burn all your bridges you are only helping him out. Get all your witnesses together and go and present your case to pse. This way you will probably end up with the pse business and the liar will have his pants on fire.

Good luck and calm down.

I have to believe that pse will be understanding and help you look into the matter.


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## toxo (Jun 19, 2002)

*Somethings wrong here.*

I know the PSE REP...........He has been doing this for over 10 years..........I can not or do not beleive that he would do that......and I do beleive you. What I think is SOMEONE SOMEWHERE is LYING TO HIM.............Do some research find out who is telling the rep this..............that is who the culprit is!!!!!!


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## niteshade (Feb 7, 2004)

*go to the top!*

something sure does stink here and i don't think its your shop!


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## clever_guy (May 21, 2002)

I think you should post this on the PSE forum...and see what happens...

 

-CG


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## crackshot (Dec 4, 2003)

*trouble solving*

Marty H,
Go to pse-archery.com, then to their message board, register and PM a member by the name of Diane Watson. She can help you with anything you need. Don't worry about posting a topic, just contact her, she ahs in the past taken care of people and will almost guarantee she can help you. Take care, good luck
CRACKSHOT


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## The Fella (May 19, 2003)

Marty,

I read both of your post's and then did a little checking with the folks in Tucson, and they tell a different story. Appears that an Archery Research bow was sold in another part of the state and when the serial number was ran through the factory it was traced to your shop. You've got to play by the rules or you can't play at all. Did you read your AR contract? You should have. BTW your PSE rep has one of the best reputations in the North East. Tell Craig that Mark Allen said "hello" the next time you talk with him.


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## Marty H (Mar 17, 2003)

I have read my contract.I can assure you that every AR bow has been sold in my shop.so I guess what they are saying is don't sell any AR bows to people for out of town.As I stated I have several customers who drive two or three hours to get to my store.So I can't sell them any ar bows is this what they are saying?
I f you go to ebay or even this site I see 2004 ar bows for sale should we check this serial #s to see where they are coming from.
Once again every ar bow was sold in my shop & paid for there.
Marty


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## HoytCountry (Nov 13, 2003)

I guess the next time someone comes in his shop with cash too buy an AR or PSE,he has too ask for thier drivers license to make sure there not from out of town...That is the stupidist thing i think i ever heard...

Larry


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## Meatco1 (Apr 9, 2004)

Larry:

I completly agree with you. PSE should get a grip on his problem, and help him out.

The rep. should remember, without dealers their just another catalog bow company!!!!!!!!!

Richard


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## The Fella (May 19, 2003)

*12Pointer & Meatco1*

12Pointer & Meatco1,

There's more to the story than Marty is telling. He had a shop shooter selling Archery Research bows outside of his territory. To be an Archery Research dealer you must sign a contract that states you will not sell these bows on the net and that you will hold firm to the MSRP, these provisions are put in place to help the shop owners be more profitable. This shooter was selling bows 70 miles away from Marty's shop below MSRP. Stop and think about it for just one minute, why would the rep (who I know, and have worked with at PSE) one day decide to stop selling bows, arrows, and other accessories to this one dealer? The rep is a commissioned sales rep, if he loses a dealer he loses income, so does PSE. The rep had to make a tuff choice but if he and PSE don't inforce the terms of their contract what good is it? Mathews has the same type of restricions to be a dealer. And trust me PSE and the sales rep do not want to lose revenue.


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## Marty H (Mar 17, 2003)

Again I am telling you I have not sold an AR BOW FOR UNDER THE $599.95.THE CUSTOMER I SOLD THE TWO BOWS TO HAS NOT RESOLD THEM.HE DID SELL HIS LAST YEARS AR 37.ISN'T IT OK FOR HIM TO SELL HIS USED BOW THAT HE SHOT 3D & HUNTED WITH LAST YEAR?HE DOES SHOOT FOR MY STORE & BRINGS MANY CUSTOMERS HERE WITH HIM.AS A MATTER OF FACT HE IS BRINGING SOMEONE HERE TO BUY A BOW THIS MORNING.ARE YOU GOING TO TELL ME I CAN'T SELL THIS BOW TOO?I CAN'T HELP IT IF I HAVE GOOD SERVICE & THEY WOULD RATHER COME HERE
I CAN TELL YOU THIS MY AR & PSE BOWS ARE NOW ON CLOSE OUT PRICES.I JUST WANT THEM OUT OF MY STORE.


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## justshoot (Jul 26, 2003)

don't blame u one bit... sounds like someone doesn't have
there facts together.. 

Marty, glad to see you take a stand for what
is right...

If I was in your shoes and knew I had been abiding by
the PSE/AR contract, and they told me this, I'd tell 
them to stick it. I'd go with another line and never look
back...there's just too much competition and too many
great bows for dealers to carry than to be treated like
this. Best of luck to u Marty.


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## Meatco1 (Apr 9, 2004)

I second what "justshoot" said, exactly!! 

Richard


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## GatorSlayer (Oct 24, 2003)

One issue that seems odd to me in this situation is the fact that the sales representative, which makes his living from sales commissions, is going to release a dealer who is obviously selling bows. Why would he make a decision to release a dealer that is making him and PSE money? Also, by releasing this dealer he is reducing his annual income which has a direct impact on not only himself and PSE, but his family and those who depend on him for their financial support. I do not know any one that would make a decision like this without careful consideration. We on the forum may not know all of the facts of this particular situation, we are only seeing from the dealers point of view, but the sales representative being willing to take the step he is taking is very compelling in my opinion.


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## Marty H (Mar 17, 2003)

PSE & AR DID NOT RELEASE ME,I AM THE ONE THAT RELEASED THEM.AGAIN THEY CAN TRACE ALL THE BOWS THAT THEY WANT.THESE CUSTOMERS CAME IN MY SHOP & BOUGHT THEM FOR THE $599.95 THAT I WAS SUPPOSED TO SELL THEM FOR.I WAS TIRED OF THE REP CALLING ME & HARASSING ME ABOUT SELLING MY AR BOWS TO PEOPLE FROM OUT OF TOWN.


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## shawn_in_MA (Dec 11, 2002)

I know said rep very well and have worked with him numerous times over many years. I find it very hard to believe that all the facts are coming out here. The rep is a stand up guy and a straight shooter...he would not call you out on rumor or hearsay. If everything on your end is on the up and up then why didn't you work with him to get to the root of the problem????


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## ind_buck_fever (May 26, 2004)

p.s.e.


pull shoot explode 

just kiddin
couldnt resist
hope the best on your troubles


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## BUCKSTER (Jan 20, 2003)

Let me put another spin on this......

Lets say there 2 bow shop that sale AR bows. Company A and lets call the other AR dealer in another town company B.

Lets say company B calls up the AR reps and says hey I've got this bow that I know came from A's shop run the serial number and see...I know this casue a cusotmer brought it in and wanted me to work on it and I asked him where he got it. SO Ar rep runs the serial number and sure enough its form company A!

Now company B is not happy that someone who is in his own hometown didn't buy the bow from him! And tells sales rep that he better take care of this. Lets just say company B put the screws to the Rep and company B does do more in all sales both PSE and AR than company A.

Which company do you think the Rep would rather lose? 

I don't know what the real story is, but htis could be the possible reason behind what going on!


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## toxo (Jun 19, 2002)

*Rep*

I have known Craig for to long and to many years. He would not do this unless told him to do so or he knew of something either he or someone is not telling. Criag is a professional and has been doing this for many years.......We do not buy bows from him but a lot of other items. He is a professional who would not cut off his nose to spite his face. I am not doubting you........but something is fishy. If you sell as many PSE bows as you say, then why would Craig or PSE want to drop you unless there was something concrete. 
It maybe not you. But someone somewhere did something. As others said...........it makes no sense to drop a great dealer unless something happened . Would you hurt yourself or your business...........I do not think so.......keep looking.........the truth is out there.


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## Bo Hunter (Apr 15, 2003)

*I don't get it....*

I still don't get what the problem is with this guys situation? So his "Shop Shooter", who lives 3 hours away, picks up a couple bows at his "sponsor", and brings them back for his buddies. Unless the shop shooter is somehow making money, what is the problem? Isn't the purpose of having shop shooters to promote the product? I believe it is probably the fault of AR/PSE in granting "Shop Shooter Status" to someone in the wrong region. No? Am I way off base here?

Take me for example. I am hooked up with a sporting goods store that sells Hoyts. I also work in the same area which is a 1 hour commute. I often will pick up bows for people at the store and bring them home. Is that dealer selling out of his region? I'm not making money on it. I drove to the shop and picked it up. It gets paid full price for? What gives?

Someone please explain, in simple words, where the wrong doing is, or provide the "details" that are missing?

Bo


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## Shure Shot 1 (Jun 2, 2004)

hmmmmm, i am a new dealer in the upstate ny area, i am wondering if you have the same rep as me ????just wondering if you could send me a name ??? i am wondering if i will get the same thing !!


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## x-time (Dec 16, 2003)

pick and choose you shop shooters carefully. why would a guy by so many bows? you should have receipts for all the bows he purchsed from you. this is your proof he paid the $600. i know your rep for a long time. he is my rep also. 

i just lost my AR dealership this year. i had a left over bows that i sold on ebay. jon shepley actually was surfing ebay and he saw it on their. he terminated my contract. i told my rep he should of bought it to help me out. lol. i am not mad. i read the contract and i was totally in the wrong. pse is one of the best companies i have ever delt with and so is craig. he is willing to anything to help you out.

i just do not know why a pse shooter would pay full retail for a bow. i know the mentality of "shop shooters". how many of you shop shooters pay full retail for your archery accessories. be honest.

i think there is more to this story. instead of jumping down craigs throught you should of resolved this problem together. 

just soulnds fishy. maybe you did follw your contract, but your so called great customer and shop shooter just gave you a a problem that you didn't need.

PICK AND CHOOSE YOU SHOP SHOOTERS CAREFULLY.


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## Marty H (Mar 17, 2003)

again I say these bows where bought & paid for in my shop.My shooter gets one bow per year at a discount.He also gets a brake on all acce.. throughout the year.Again he sells many bows for me.;He drives people personnally to my shop approx.two hours.Am I to be told that I cannot sell these people bows because there is a dealer closer to them?
If tHIS is the way PSE & Craig want to do business they can keep there bows.I will never have anothere Pse product in my store.
Again if Craig was really worried about his othere dealer he would have gotten my return # like he said he would.
My PSE stuff is on close out prices & will not be sold here again.


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## Adam Lee (May 24, 2004)

just get rid of pse and get Mathews!


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## arrowactionarch (Mar 2, 2003)

I started shooting with Pete, you know the founder of PSE, around 30 years ago. yes the same baby face...lol. I have sold PSE bows off and on for around 27 years. I have never had a problem with PSE service. Yes mistakes can happen, but PSE has alaways come threw for me. 

I dont know of one bow company that dont change things at times. And when that happens not everyone is happy. Sometimes it takes change to grow. 

PSE in my book is one of a few leaders of service in archery. If you want to point fingers at bow makers with true bad service you will have many to point at. But I know better than most, PSE does the best they can.

PS: I have never shot for PSE, just sold them. The only money I made off PSE outside of sales was the $5.00 bet Pete and I had at shoots around 25 years ago. 

I dont like to use my name in here, but for Pete I will.
Ken Stanislawski

And in my 38 years of shooting from Pee Wee division to Pro to has been, I say dont fight archers, help them. To shoot an arrow is all the same.


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## nontypical (Jan 4, 2004)

Based on comments of people like "The Fella" and Jonh Shepley terminating dealerships on left over bows. I WILL NEVER BUY A PSE PRODUCT AGAIN. I had trouble buying an AR 34 last year when they first came out. My local dealer could not order one because of the 10 bow minimum and bogus contract BS that PSE pushed. I saw the dealer price and the 599.95 price is a jip. MSRP is exactly what the acronym says Manufactures SUGGESTED Retail Price. Chevy, Ford and every other car dealer puts suggested price stickers on every car. If you pay that price, your an IDIOT. Same goes with bow MSRPs. Our soceity is based on capitalism not dictatorships. Get a life and let people do business as THEY deem appropriate. Congratulations for standing up for yourself Marty. Good luck.


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## Catfish369 (Jul 31, 2004)

I think all such "contracts" are lame anyway. I mean, why should they care if the shop owner makes $2 or $200 on a sale...they are still getting their price per bow. 

And I would think that regardless of WHO sells their bows, they'd appreciate the business and interest in their products.....afterall, again they made their money from the original sale.


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## Bighook (Aug 12, 2003)

*The independent dealer is going away*

The probelm is that dealers go out of business everyday becaues they dont make enough money...... so Mathews and bowtech and Archery Research, pse and a few others saw what was happening. The independent dealer is going away.....Why, too many hobbyist and not enough business people. So the manufactures are trying to help educate the dealer on how to make money and stay in business, if the dealer stays in business all manufactures will do better. Bottom line the manufactures are in this for the long term, yes they did make the sale to the dealer, but if the dealer does not make enough money to cover his overhead he will not be there very long, and the manufacture will not be able to make an additonal sale down the road.

As a former dealer, I just wished they would have done this sooner.


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## hawgdawg (Sep 8, 2002)

I would rather sell 10 bows and make 50.00 each on them than to sell a couple bows and make 150.00 each. Besides on the 10 bows you'll get a lot of accessories to add on. I was in Laurel Miss. awhile back and looked at a AR 34. Price was 599.00 but the shop would give me a dozen arrows with the bow. Seems as he was finding a way around that flakey contract.


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## bhtr3d (Feb 13, 2004)

I know my two cents arent going to be worth much but, All I can say is if someone wants to buy a bow from somewhere its the customers choice the the bow company or the bowshop to dictate where they have to buy it. 
Maybe, the person doesn't like the service at one shop. 
RULE 1 of all Customer Service generated business
THE CUSTOMER IS ALWAYS RIGHT..
If I wanna drive 2hrs cuz I feel ill get better service ill do it


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## GABowHunter (Apr 21, 2003)

I've been shooting PSE for approximately 15 years and started shooting AR last year. I'm a member of the AR ProStaff and I would go to the main man on this. PSE hasn't done you wrong, the rep has and you need to get to the bottom of the problem. Go to PSE-archery.com and post this problem with Diane Watson. She will help you.


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## AustinArcher (Feb 21, 2003)

*keep it up*

Please continue this thread. It has real implications for a consumer based "price fixing" anti-trust complaint.
Alway good to confirm that Dealers and Suppliers are conspiring to fix prices.
Would love to hear more about Easton and arrow prices.
If you feel truly aggrieved, I suggest you contact your State's Attorney General. There is possibly a divisin th at really likes these types of cases.


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## AKDoug (Aug 27, 2003)

Price fixing is when a group of retailers get together and conspire to raise the price and all of them sell it at that higher price. Like all the gas stations in a town falsely raising the price and conspiring to do so.

It is totally legal for a manufacturer to set a contactual minimum price on a product that they supply. Happens all the time on thousands of consumer products, not just archery.


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## pointer (Apr 14, 2004)

http://www.michigan.gov/ag/0,1607,7-164-17343_18163-44650--,00.html
an article on msrp.


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## Meatco1 (Apr 9, 2004)

Pointer, that was a great post, on information I have always been courious about.

Thanks,

Richard


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## cgchris99 (Apr 10, 2003)

Pointer, I read page you posted. Talk about a slippery document. I like the part, if they agree on what's charged it's illegal. But if it was independent decisions it's now legal.

Well it doesn't take rocket science to figure out that the retailer must charge what the manufacturer dictates or they can't buy the product from the manufacturer in order to sell it. So is that legal or illegal?


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## wvhuntinnut (Sep 1, 2004)

Interesting read on the Price Fixing link by Pointer!!

But can it not be considered coercion(sp) if the dealer(s) know that if they don't sell at the MSRP they will not be able to continue getting supplied by the manufacturer?? 



> While the manufacturer may suggest a retail price, it cannot coerce the retailer into agreeing to it. If an agreement between the manufacturer and retailer is obtained, then the agreement is illegal.


Seems to me that according to this next quote they enforce the aggreement and have the right to whether legal or illegal!



> A manufacturer does have a legal right to set a suggested retail price (a manufacturer's suggested retail price or MSRP). The manufacturer also has the right to unilaterally terminate a retailer who prices below the MSRP. Frequently, when prices are identical for a product at every store, it is because each retailer has decided to adhere to the MSRP.


So one time they cannot set the price but they can terminate a dealer's contract if they do not adhere to the MSRP.

Seems like the manufacturers get there cake and eat it too!

All they do is either put money in there own pocket or a little in the dealer's. I can't believe that they would increase dealer profit by setting a high price MSRP but low wholesale to help the dealer. And at the same time so all the dealers get the same wholesale or is it "negotiated"? 

Interesting angle this thread has taken.

Bow prices have gotten kind of out of hand if you ask me. When I can buy a new hunting rifle and scope combo with a case to boot for less than I can by a bow things are strange, IMO.

Don't get me wrong I like a lot of the bows on the market today, I just don't know why if I want one of the better bows it is gonna be at least $600.00 for the bow then add the accessories and you are easily at $800-900. But my new Remington top of the line and scope combo was less than that. I do mean TOP of the line it wasn't a bdl it was an LSS.

I like the input here and look forward to seeing some more!

wvhuntinnut


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## Northbowman (May 8, 2004)

I agree go to the top and get some answers. I was a Hoyt dealer and I had to sell at their suggested retail price while others were selling below the suggested retail. I stopped handling Hoyt bows.


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## Larry Rooks (Jan 25, 2003)

Being a long time PSE and AR dealer, sounds like something fishy to me.


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## rbthntr64 (Aug 22, 2004)

*My $.02*

Guys,
For what is worth, I bought a name brand bow at my local pro-shop and his after the sale service sucked! For my $700+ I think I deserve a little support and service after the sale. First he ordered my bow before I had it paid for, then his display sold so he put my bow on display for everyone to put their hands on and draw, then when I went to pick up the bow he had sold it. I had to wait 2 weeks for another bow to come in. I got my bow.
Guess what? He will never get another penny from me, or a good referal for that matter. 
I drove 70 miles to the next authorized dealer for help. Quess what? He helped me with no questions asked. 
I spend MY money where I want to. If some money hound thinks the other guy beat him out of a sale, Guess what? He beat himself out of not one, but many future sales he may have got from my referals.
Hear this loud and clear DEALERS! Your customers are who make you or break you. Treat them badly and it will cost you more in lost customers than the cost of treating them with respect.
I hope that you get your problem resolved Marty H. I would call and talk to MR. PSE himself. Maybe he should look at the other dealer to see why customers are driving so far. Might be for better service after the sale. Hmmmmmmm. What a concept!
RBTHNTR64


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## rescue15 (Apr 11, 2003)

I don't see what the difference is in that article that Pointer posted. (Quoted Below)


*"While the manufacturer may suggest a retail price, it cannot coerce the retailer into agreeing to it. If an agreement between the manufacturer and retailer is obtained, then the agreement is illegal...
...A manufacturer does have a legal right to set a suggested retail price (a manufacturer's suggested retail price or MSRP). The manufacturer also has the right to unilaterally terminate a retailer who prices below the MSRP. "*


The manufacturer can't tell the dealer he has to sell the product at a specific price ...but if the dealer doesn't sell it at that price the manufacturer can terminate the dealer's contract? 

What kind of double talk is that?!?!?!?


Steve


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## pointer (Apr 14, 2004)

http://www.michigan.gov/ag/0,1607,7-164-17343_18163-44650--,00.html to read the full article.


A lawyer would be better to consult, but the Attorney General states * "It is frequently difficult in antitrust enforcement to determine when a retail price is set based upon a manufacturer's unilateral pricing policies and when the retail prices are set based upon an illegal agreement. The basic rule of thumb is: if the manufacturer's decision to set a suggested retail price and the retailers choice to adhere to that price are independent decisions, then it is probably not considered price fixing under the law. But if manufacturers and retailers agree that a certain price will be charged, the agreement will be considered illegal."


*
http://www.ftc.gov/ftc/consumer.htm is the place to get information, but depending on the contract, he might have to consult the Attorney General of his state and see what they say on it.


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## 963369 (Nov 15, 2003)

*Interesting*

My uncle taught international law and anti-trust law at Harvard. One of their law buildings bears his last name. I learned quite a bit at his knee. I read this post, and I am extremely disappointed in the behavior mentioned above. The practice of MSRP is not only slippery it is un-American. And I do not care who practices it; if they are "offended" by my assertion as regards THEIR regard of their alleged consumers----the dealers, then they are hypocrites besides.


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## rbthntr64 (Aug 22, 2004)

*Any Updates?*

Has PSE got back with you on your problem?


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## arrowactionarch (Mar 2, 2003)

*Re: Interesting*



Tautog Rich said:


> *My uncle taught international law and anti-trust law at Harvard. One of their law buildings bears his last name. I learned quite a bit at his knee. I read this post, and I am extremely disappointed in the behavior mentioned above. The practice of MSRP is not only slippery it is un-American. And I do not care who practices it; if they are "offended" by my assertion as regards THEIR regard of their alleged consumers----the dealers, then they are hypocrites besides. *


 Well My dads bigger than your dad...LOL What are you thinking?

let the makers put a price on what they think it should sell for. If you dont like it dont sell it!


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## Barry James (Aug 2, 2004)

*Good luck Marty H*

If I remember right, this is still the U.S.A. and the way I see things a person has the RIGHT to sell anything he/she wants at the price they want; does this rep pay Marty's bills? does he buy Marty's food for his family? does P.S.E. or AR offer to pay Marty's house payment? I don't think so. If Marty pays his bills with P.S.E. THEN HE SHOULD BE ABLE TO SELL ANYTHING HE WANTS TO ANY BODY NO MATTER WHERE THEY LIVE; TELL P.S.E. QUIT SELLING TO BASS PRO AND CABELAS BECAUSE THEY WILL SELL TO ANYONE,ANYWHERE! Marty H., tell this rep to hit the road and buy from a company that will sell to your shop and doesn't mind who you sell your bows to; my personal opion Martin bows are the best around; as far as the bowhunters here in Arkansas we gave up on P.S.E. along time ago; I hope you the BEST and may God bless your business; and God bless the U.S.A.


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## arrowactionarch (Mar 2, 2003)

If you dont like a vender drop them. You cant tell me a well run company banks so much on one vender. 

Bow companys dont run the market, service does. If you offer great service you can sell many of the great bows on the market. 

No matter how much you bash PSE you cant hurt them. So many other dealers like them. 

I just wish small minded people wouldnt use this sight the way you do. This is a great sight to build up archery, not break it down. 

I have no ties with any company, this is just my take on things with 38 years in all fields of archery.


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## wvhuntinnut (Sep 1, 2004)

> If you dont like a vender drop them. You cant tell me a well run company banks so much on one vender.


There are several problems with that statement!!

For one he can't drop the vendor because the vendor dropped him as a retailer!! Now I don't know if he is on the up and up, but I do know that there are people having problems with the MSRP!! If you order the product(s) required to fulfill your contract then you should be able to resell those product in the retail marker at a price YOU deem necessary. The problem is not the retailer dropping vendors but VENDORS DROPPING RETAILERS. If they are dropping them do to the MSRP issue it is wrong. As I have said before, archery equipment has skyrocketed in the last 6 or 8 years. Is this due to increase in manufacturer's cost or are they simply raising profit to make more $$. I don't really care if the dealer makes more as well, PRICE GOUGING IS PRICE GOUGING. Seems to me that most are complaining that oil companies are doing the same thing with gasoline. I would tend to agree, but if you can show me a correlated price increase in the manufacturing of the bow, I would be a little more understanding. 

Top end bows have more than doubled in the last 6 to 8 years -- has any other product on the open, free market done the same?? I personally do not believe so, with the exception of oil and oil distilates.

Now as far as dropping a vendor is concerned -- yeah it is an option, but with as few companies producing quality product in today's archery world how many times could you do that -- MAYBE -- JUST MAYBE 2 or 3. Then you would be carrying the same things as a BPS or Cabela's--see the whole idea for the vendor to have the retailer under contract is to sell there product -- but most companies only give BPS and Cabela's a limited line. So what happens to the little guy under contract -- IT IS COMPLY OR DIE!! If you don't follow there MSRP they drop you and -- what happens -- shop dies do to lack of "High-End" bows.

There are two groups that get killed in this scenarario -- the small mom and pop dealer and the guy on the purchasing end -- the consumer.

If you can prove otherwise let me know. I like the new bows too -- unfortunately I can't justify somewhere of 1/6th of my annual mortgage to buy one. And I can't see how the darn things have to cost that much to cover the cost of manufacturing and still turning profit. Is it OK to rape the average hunter if you are in the hunting business?? IMO -- no. See there was a time when guys would buy bows every two to four years and hand old ones down to kids or newbies -- today it is just to damn expensive and they are limiting themselves by pinching a shrinking market. Hunters as a group are lowering in numbers and with the cost to break in it won't be easy to replace the ones we loose. Maybe that is something they should consider.

Sorry I went so long, just had to give my 2 cents!!

wvhuntinnut


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## 963369 (Nov 15, 2003)

*arra action guy*

I hear what you're saying.....and yeah, I understand what it is that you're saying. It all boils down to dollars, and you're right about that. I recently bought a PSE, and it is an okay bow, though I use it for a back up only due to it's light draw weight, and therefore better use as a cold weather bow. Down the road apiece, I'll be trading that PSE in on a Bowtech dually. Then I'll have two duallies---one primary and one backup. I guess you're right in many regards---I'll just vote with my dollars. AND buy from those with whomever services my equipment right the first time. So, a point well taken. As far as nobody being able to put anybody out of business........look at the airlines industry, or how some domestic auto manufacturers who became arrogant about what they presumed to be THEIR market. Some of those folks woke up one day to discover VW Beetles and Toyota Corollas had surpassed them in quality and durability. When they tried to build small cars to compete, many Americans had switched their brand loyalty to foreign manufacturers, and they got---"ungatz"(nothing) from the American consumer. I don't wish anything bad on PSE, rather I wish them well, and hope they place the customer first. Just because something is "perfectly" legal it does not always follow that it is the right thing to do by those who purvey that company's wares(the dealers). Bash them(PSE)? Never! I think they have a large share of the market and they are doing a number of things right. But, like some folks have said on this thread, "someting schmell!!" It does make one pause when one reads about "flakey" contracts and the fact that a dealer apparently felt so frustrated he had to go to a forum to get it out! I just hope to see that things get ironed out. Not too many months ago I found a site where the whole site is nothing but one guy who claims he got "the giant cylinder" from PSE. Either the guy is a sicko, or really burned up about alleged poor service. I guess it can be both (or neither) to be fair. One thing is for certain: many folks will be watching to see if this thing gets worked out amicably and reasonably, or maybe, just maybe they'll find themselves looking at brand loyalty anew. Last time I checked, Loyalty was a TWO way street. In fact, I just reminded my boss about that the other day. He's a good egg, and he mumbled an "I'm sorry," and he took care of my problem pronto. I did not look down at him because he "caved," but rather held him in much higher esteem, because he was man enough to do the right thing, and because he was man enough to admit it. Today, when someone tried badmouthing him, I quietly informed them about his open door policy AND told them how I'd gotten fairly treated. Imagine what some forward thinking companies will have for a customer base when THEY do it!?!!! Remember the Tylenol scare some years back? The manufacturer yanked it ALL from the shelves, swallowed the profit, came out and apologized for not keeping a close eye and asked the consumer for Forgiveness. Last time I checked they are STILL in the top 500 on Wall Street...hell...they're probably spankin' most if not all their competitors. Shoot! Iam so sorry this is so long winded, but durnit, ya got me goin!


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## tmarch (Jun 7, 2002)

What many companies don't understand is that different areas need to have different pricing to sell any product. Some can charge full price and sell a lot of items and some can only sell so many no matter what the price. Often it seems that the companies try to limit the options so that their dealers can all make the same of profit when in reality all they're doing is making the customer pay more.
I'm not a big fan of setting prices or limiting the way any item is sold. If the dealer has bought and paid for anything they should be able to sell it to whoever and for whatever they want. JMHO


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## AVENGER (Jul 27, 2004)

After reading your posts i will never buy a PSE product and i was really interested in the AR bows but i have had bad deals with bow companys like BOWTECH <<<<{terrible costomer support} and the worst thing for companys like these is a bad word of mouth.If you have a bad experience like this you tell 10 of your friends then they tell 20 of their friends and they tell 40 of there friends and soon PSE lost 20 sells so if i were you just put the word on the street and guess what PSE looses not you!!
I am a member of 2 archery clubs and i have 2 bowtech bows and a parker and i know myself that i have stopped 20 people from buying a BOWTECH bow by telling them my experience with BOWTECH and probably helped sold 20 parker bows and i will continue putting the word out.Good job Mark


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## 2066 (Jan 4, 2003)

Okay, I have a problem with this. What difference does it makes who buys a bow and from what shop it is purchased from?

We shot PSE for years and outside of our initial 4 purchases, did NOT buy anything else from our local dealer. Why? Because his customer service and technical ability left much to be desired. He did more damage to the bows than he fixed.

We went the "road trip" route and drove 120 miles to buy from a reputable shop that knew what they were doing and treated their customers right. We highly recommended this shop and sent many of our friends there. 

We frequently made a 5 hour drive to the PSE ProShop in Tucson, and bought bows there. We sold many of our older bows to make room for newer bows. It is my right as a consumer to buy what I want, from whoever I want, and sell it whenever I want.

Is it unusual for someone to buy more than a bow or two in a year? Boy, I hope not because since February we have purchased 7 new bows. One we sold because my husband did not like it, the other 6 we shoot all the time. 

I don't know if this makes the "out of our area" shop(s) that sold us bows wrong or in violation of their contracts, but I know it makes us "preferred" customers and they don't hesitate to take our money!

We have a friend who is a Hoyt dealer and is having the same type of problem. His Rep is making him hold to selling at MSRP, but another dealer in a reasonable driving distance is allowed to sell below MSRP. 

Product loyalty will go a long way, but customer loyalty only goes so far. When you can save $$$ on the same bow by going down the street, it is going to happen.

Someone asked how many Pro Staff people paid for their bows? I DID. I shot for the bow company, not for what they gave me, but because I was proud to represent them and to be a Pro Staff member and to promote archery. 

I am not sure who is right or wrong. But, I know when a Manufacturer doesn't treat their retailers or Pro Staff member right, they go elsewhere. 

It is tough enough for a shop/dealer to make it in today's economy. I hope you follow up on this and if nothing else, make your side known to Jon Shepley. 

Take Care and Shoot Straight!


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## Fletch Helical (Jul 20, 2004)

This is one of those things I just can't understand. The companies say they wand to "protect" their dealers and these bow companies are making their money regardless if the dealer just sold a bow to somebody who lives next door to their shop or in another state. Let's assume I go on a hunt hunt in another part of the country. And for whatever reason I decide to buy a new bow at a local shop, after shooting it over the next couple of months I just don't like it and so I sell it wheteher it's ebay or locally whatever. How is it okay for a bow company to crucify the poor guy I bought the bow from in another state on a hunt because the serial number showed up in another part of the country? Or let's assume I went to a pro shop for years and was great friends with the owner even on a non archery basis and I moved to a different state but was still friends with this guy and still visited around the holidays a few times a year. Now I still buy everthing through him because he's a friend. but I sold one of my bows I bought through him to someone on-line or locally and a bow company pulls their line from his shop, is that "protecting" people who are selling your product. Or if I go to a shoot in PA and decide to stop into Lancaster Archery because I know their reputation and I buy a new bow even though I live out of state. Then I decide to sell that bow after 3d season, I guess it makes sense to punish the pro shop because a serial number showed up in a different state. I understand the industry doesn't want the "marts" to run the pro shops out of business, but how can you restrict who you sell a bow to. If a father owns a pro shop one the east coast I guess he can't sell a bow to his own kid who moved out west because that's going to get him in hot water. Again if I'm not understanding this correctly, and I'm not trying to stir the pot, I would just like to understand this whole thing and if someone can explin it to me I would appreciate it. I know a few people who own shops and I don't want to get them in trouble if I sell a bow I got through them on ebay.


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## JMARLEY7 (Sep 23, 2004)

If I understand LADYBOWHUNTER's post you can go to Tucson and by a bow from the PSE pro shop. 
Now how does this help the mom and pops, and what is the profit margin on this sale for PSE.
This is not a bash on LADYBOWHUNTER, I agree with her. Buy were you want to, but this sounds like a doble standard on PSE's part.


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## 963369 (Nov 15, 2003)

*Capitalism and Tariffs*

This all vaguely reminds me about the car manufacturers again. Our domestic makers speak at Rotary or other "clubs" and very eloquently remark about how they support a "free market." Then, when outsiders (pronounced in some parts as "furriners") attempt to introduce their product to the market the same capitalists scream about how we need "tariffs" (we'd like some protection please). If the truth hurts, it may be because it's true! Just whom is protecting what?


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## 2066 (Jan 4, 2003)

JMARLEY7,

No offense taken! 

You understood what I was saying!  

Take Care and Shoot Straight!


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## ArcherWolf (Oct 6, 2004)

Yep, this MSRP thing is a big sham. One particular rep from a well known manufacturer was asked.. Why can Kittery trading post sell under MSRP for the same products we sell here. The Reps answer was.. "They are Kittery Trading Post, they can do what they want."


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## [email protected] (Sep 16, 2004)

As far as I know Hoyt does not have a MSRP htta Reps make you go by! Now Reflex doea have an MSRP but I've never heard of a shop that got in troulbe for going below that. 

Now why does a manufacture have a MSRP? If you are in the industry as a dealer most manufactures put MSRP on the bow that you find in BAss Pro, Cablea's and such! They do this to help the small shops out...by asking that they sale the bows at that price they make it easy for the small shops to compete with the BOX Stores.

As with any company you have the right not to sell a product to someone for what ever reason! (Now you might end up in court but hey I can look at someone crosseyed and that person can sue me, might not win but they can still sue me).

I think that the main point with maufactures is that they allow people "proshop" to sale their product and that "proshop" doesn't even know how to set up a bow......thats more important than what price a dealer sales a bow at. IMO, thats whats wrong with the industry, allow "proshops" to sale a bow when they don't even have a clue!


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## flapjack (Oct 9, 2004)

*PSE REP Problems*

Sorry to hear about your REP problems.

I agree witha bunch here that ya ought ta give 'ol Pete a ring and give him a chance ta fix it.....if that doesn't work, DUMP PSE.

In reality, I think there are a bunch of manufactures out the with at least as good a product, so PSE isn't the only fish in the sea.


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## donh (Sep 10, 2002)

*Dissatified PSE Dealer*

Help me understand what is going on here. Does PSE require their dealers to ascertain the address of everyone who purchases a bow in his shop? If not , how is the dealer expected to stay within his area.


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## ArcherWolf (Oct 6, 2004)

*Re: Dissatified PSE Dealer*



donh said:


> *Help me understand what is going on here. Does PSE require their dealers to ascertain the address of everyone who purchases a bow in his shop? If not , how is the dealer expected to stay within his area. *


Its not that the bow was sold out of area, It that there may have been a chance that a certain bow may have been sold outside of Marty's shop under MSRP. Whether this is the truth or not has yet to be determined. 

Note to Marty.. If your convictions are so strong , (and i'm not being facetious.. just asking) why did you give up on your contract ?? Just an observation and maybe a little honest advice , If I were in your position I would have plead my case all the way and let them drop me before I gave up first.


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## Marty H (Mar 17, 2003)

I gave up the line as the pse rep has called me several times telling me that I couldn't sell any more bows to a certain customer.This customer came to my store & bought the bows for the $599.95 that I was supposed to sell them for.He never recieved a brake on these AR bows.The rep said he was reselling the bows this was also untrue.The only AR BOW HE SOLD WAS ONE THAT WAS A YEAR OLD.
I GUESS IN SHORT I AM NOT GOING TO PUT UP WITH GETTING HARRASSED BY THERE REP & I WILL NOT BE TOLD WHO I CAN SELL THERE BOWS TO.
I SELL SEVERAL OTHERE BRANDS OF BOWS & DON'T HAVE ANY TROUBLE WITH THERE REPS.THE OTHERE COMPANYS WANT TO SELL BOWS NOT HARASS THERE DEALERS.
APPARENTLY THIS PSE REP THINKS HE IS GOD & CAN TELL YOU AS A DEALER WHO YOU CAN OR CAN'T SELL TO.I FOR ONE DON'T NEED THERE BOWS OR THERE REP ATTITUDE.
Marty


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## ArcherWolf (Oct 6, 2004)

Ok , I can understand you pleading your case here to possibly get some moral support and quite possibly some legal support to some degree but you really should be pleading your case with PSE's upper corporate management. You must have documentation of your sales , correct ??


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## Marty H (Mar 17, 2003)

I can show where i rang everyone of there bows through my computor.On what day I sold them & for how much.My complant is about the rep & when I call PSE they didn't want to hear about it.
I again have sold there bows for approx eleven years & WILL NOT BE TOLD WHO i CAN SELL BOWS.HOW CAN YOU DO BUSINESS WITH SOMEONE WHO KEEPS HARASSING YOU ABOUT SELLING BOWS TO PEOPLE FROM OUT OF TOWN?
FURTHER MORE I BELIEVE THAT THE QUALITY OF THERE PRODUCT IS GOING DOWN HILL.WE SOLD THROUGH EVERY OTHERE BRAND OF BOW EXCEPT PSE.PEOPLE WOULD TRY A PSE & THAN BRAND X & THEY WOULD BUY BRAND X.THE REMAINING PSE ITEMS I HAVE WILL GO ON EBAY.
ALSO IF THE REP REALLY CARED ABOUT HIS OTHERE DEALERS HE WOULD HAVE GOTTEN ME A RETURN # FOR MY REMAINING BOWS ON THE DATE HE SAID HE WOULD NOT FIVE DAYS LATER.
I SOLD MY AR BOW AT A HUGE DISCOUT.
I THINK PSE & THERE REP HAVE MADE A BIG MISTAKE.THEY HAVE IN NO WAY TRIED TO SOLVE THIS PROBLEM.
I JUST DON'T NEED THERE PRODUCT ANY MORE.


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## ArcherWolf (Oct 6, 2004)

The only questions that really still intrigue me are.. What exactly was the reason the PSE rep gave you , why he didn't want you to sell bows to this particular customer?? And.. Concearning your employee... Have you checked your inventory lately ?? 

About the trade shows... Nearly every manufacturer will sell booth product at nearly give away prices. They don't want to pack all that stuff up and carry it back with them. I've seen this in the grocery biz as well. When I was managing groc. retail we went to similar shows . All the vendors were more than happy to give you pretty much anything you wanted from their booths. Whatever was left was donated to local charity such as soup kitchens , food pantry's , churches etc..


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## bowwrench (Dec 7, 2003)

*Rep*

I will be meeting with the rep mentioned tomorrow and I will here his side of the issue. I will post.


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## Marty H (Mar 17, 2003)

My Rep said he didn't want me to sell bows to this customer as he was reselling them.This isn't true.He sold a one year old AR bow as he had bought a couple of new bows.A dealer in the area my customer comes from is mad that this customer promotes my shop & bring many people to my store.
As todays date is 10/16/04 & I have paid my Pse bill in full on 08/01/04 When this all came to a head.I am now getting billed from the for product that I refused & never recieved.Seems to me this company will try & screw you anyway they can.Not a good way to do business as far as i'm concerned.


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