# Help with horizontal groupings - stab?



## Garceau (Sep 3, 2010)

My groups are always considerably wider than are taller

At 40 or 50 yards in my group so maybe an inch to an inch and a half tall but 3 to 4 inches wide at any given time

Of course there are days when everything's perfect and they just stack in regardless. But when they arent I am missing left to right just a little bit more than I would like.

My pin moves horizontally as well left to right: slowly

Target set up with long bars just feel like I should be able to tune out a little bit more any thoughts?


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## Mahly (Dec 18, 2002)

Any chance of variable amounts of facial contact?


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## Garceau (Sep 3, 2010)

That's a chance, but not sure that would show up with what I see for pin movement.

I can see the pin waggle back and forth. 

If it was sitting still and I got flyers I could see something like face contact


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## Blue X (Dec 22, 2007)

Garceau said:


> My groups are always considerably wider than are taller
> 
> At 40 or 50 yards in my group so maybe an inch to an inch and a half tall but 3 to 4 inches wide at any given time
> 
> ...


You know theres a point in learning where someone else cant help you anymore. You are the only one who can see thru your peep and feel what you feel. When it gets to thast point, its pure testing and shooting and recording the results. You could be talking anything from differences in your set up to equipment to differences in your execution or in your hands in relation to activation of your release. 

As far as what you could do with your stabilizers, maybe more weight on your long rod. But because it changes from day to day, I would say your probably needing to work on your release hand because your index finger is overpowering the other side. try having even tension on all your fingers when you go to anchor, this way the outside fingers can take weight from the index finger immediatly as you start your execution.

Or work on load and transfer the step that at the end of your draw and before you tilt up into your anchor. in the load transfer the elbow will go down a little as the bottom of your scapula can be felt getting closer to your spine. the tension in the rhomboid stays the same as you tilt into your anchor. the bow goes down on target as the back end comes up to anchor, but the scapula and the tension you set previously stays the same.

My few thoughts, could be a mile off or dead on, not nearly enough evidence to make a call on horizontal grouping.

Blue X


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## N7709K (Dec 17, 2008)

two twists into string and another oz up front to start... limb stops or cable stops? 

dot/pin? can you see the complete outer edge of the housing? release hand angle the same each time? what release?

at all distances do you have a left/right spread with very few high/low misses, indoors as well?


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## Honeymonster (Nov 3, 2005)

Does your pin move left and right as much or as little as up and down?

Is your bow arm stable? 

Do you pull into the wall with an even and equal amount of force?

How much let-off?


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## Garceau (Sep 3, 2010)

Honeymonster said:


> Does your pin move left and right as much or as little as up and down?
> 
> Is your bow arm stable?
> 
> ...


Pin rarely moves up and down, considerably less than side to side anyways.

Bow arm stable and consistent

Yes I believe I do, I shoot fairly well, just trying to get this bit of movement to tighten it up a bit

74% let off


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## Garceau (Sep 3, 2010)

N7709K said:


> two twists into string and another oz up front to start... limb stops or cable stops?
> 
> dot/pin? can you see the complete outer edge of the housing? release hand angle the same each time? what release?
> 
> at all distances do you have a left/right spread with very few high/low misses, indoors as well?


Jacob , always a consistent left to right spread. All distances. Indoors usually still in the X.....at 40-50 is where it seems to show up.

Set up as cable stops, regardless of which hinge I shoot same groups.


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## bigHUN (Feb 5, 2006)

I assume you have an established and consistent form, also assume you have some consistent accuracy and assume you have at least one sidebar (me personally like two sidebars just for easy tuneability....I am not much into that fashion hanging a weight single sided)...
I assume you tuned the bubble in 2nd and 3rd axis...assume you have numbered your arrows....
Get a box of washers what will fit over the weight holding screw, not sure what stabilizers you have but the 1/4" and 5/16" screw size is common.
Go shooting longest distance what you feel comfortable with, focus on shooting and watch the group pattern (fliers)....
let assume the fliers are wider out to left from center in example, put one washer below the left side weight....this shall not move out the bubble but micro tune your "torque"
keep shooting and watch and monitor the fliers....adjust accordingly.....
tuning the stabilizers is many many days job...don't pay full attention to it but you just keep shooting, days after days, this tuning shall be a background job....
sooner or later you will find the group size shrank....but not necessary will stay like that, one day or the other will occasionally come back if you loose the momentum...


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## N7709K (Dec 17, 2008)

both hands relaxed, the release doesn't hang up? 

i'd start with shortening dl a touch and adding an oz up front; from there i'd work through the bars and DL until the dot sits inside big 10 at 18m. at that point i'd move to 50m and shoot a 720 or two and get an idea of the pattern. if its better but still persistent i'd look towards hard hands, face contact, and slight variations in release angle.


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## Huntinsker (Feb 9, 2012)

I'm assuming you've tried a little more weight up front? That or inconsistent face contact? Just watched a GRIV video about the face contact and realized I was doing that on occasion.


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## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

The two big things that I think have helped me eliminate left and right issues from my shooting are my torque indicator and my firing engine. The torque indicator is simply on my bow forever and it is something I absolutely will not go without, if you want to know how I make them just pm and I will explain. The firing engine thing is something I came by this spring when I was coaching many people and I was out training with a variety of hinges and firing engines. It was freaking windy and I was struggling to group and missing at least 5 inches to the right at 40 yards because of the wind, I laid down my competition hinge and picked up my other hinge and decided to shoot with a new firing engine that I had written up and not shot that much. I instantly started grouping nice and tight and just a inch and a half right of the bulleseye and I did so for 15 minutes not having one bad shot and then I decided to shoot my competition hinge again thinking I was just warmed up or something now. I instantly started shooting 5 inches to the right and grouping poorly, and then i decided to shoot my competition hinge with the new firing engine also and it started grouping right with the other shots 1.5 inches to the right. The difference in the two firing engines was the solid j hook grip compared to a relaxed and stretched out grip on the hinge.


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## [email protected] (Feb 17, 2013)

Can't believe all the good info!


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## dua lam pa (May 29, 2014)

more holding weight - shorter DL - or the last thing that you might want to hear ( hardest to change ) angle of release and arm , however it is the easiest to test
A colder release might be worth a try as well - 
All of the above might aid in a stronger shot and keep you from "side slipping " out of your shot ?


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## Connor Marceaux (Feb 23, 2014)

Up and down groups- DL too long
Left and right groups- DL too short
(To an extent, there are plenty of other factors as we'll)


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## RCR_III (Mar 19, 2011)

When I start getting left to right movement it is usually the way I'm gripping or putting pressure into the riser with my bow hand. If I start putting too much pressure and not relaxing my bow hand enough I'll see more movement in my float. If it's an inconsistent thing with you, have someone video you on a good day, and then again on one of the days you're having the problems. You may not be able to see anything through video, but you may. I would think it is inconsistencies in your form. But what you'll need to find out is why they are there. Are you fighting your bow for some reason on the bad days? Or is it just an off day with your body not lining up the same? Are you keeping a good shot process with checkpoints? If so, pay close attention to each check point, and see if you need to add another for the reason that is causing your left and right movement.


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## ron w (Jan 5, 2013)

left and right issues are many times the result of tension in the bow hand. when there is tension....hand not entirely relaxed into good, bone-to bone submission,... the pad of your thumb will remain somewhat hard, as it is the biggest muscle in your hand, and the riser will rock left and right, on that hard muscle.
many shooters experience this as they try to work the "push-pull" shot execution. pushing from the hand, instead of pushing from the bow shoulder. if you push from your shoulder, your entire hand can still remain completely relaxed. as soon as you attempt to push with your arm and/or fore arm, it sends that tension into your thumb pad.


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## Blue X (Dec 22, 2007)

ron w said:


> left and right issues are many times the result of tension in the bow hand. when there is tension....hand not entirely relaxed into good, bone-to bone submission,... the pad of your thumb will remain somewhat hard, as it is the biggest muscle in your hand, and the riser will rock left and right, on that hard muscle.
> many shooters experience this as they try to work the "push-pull" shot execution. pushing from the hand, instead of pushing from the bow shoulder. if you push from your shoulder, your entire hand can still remain completely relaxed. as soon as you attempt to push with your arm and/or fore arm, it sends that tension into your thumb pad.


Very nicely put.

Blue X


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## rohpenguins (Dec 2, 2012)

ron w said:


> left and right issues are many times the result of tension in the bow hand. when there is tension....hand not entirely relaxed into good, bone-to bone submission,... the pad of your thumb will remain somewhat hard, as it is the biggest muscle in your hand, and the riser will rock left and right, on that hard muscle.
> many shooters experience this as they try to work the "push-pull" shot execution. pushing from the hand, instead of pushing from the bow shoulder. if you push from your shoulder, your entire hand can still remain completely relaxed. as soon as you attempt to push with your arm and/or fore arm, it sends that tension into your thumb pad.


were good explanation


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## tmorelli (Jul 31, 2005)

Sounds like you are going to have to experiment.... My first reaction was opposite several above. 

My opinion-

The left/right wiggle in the pin often comes from too much weight on the rods (for the holding weight), too long of rods, or an imbalance (less than perfect weight distribution). I'd also look at the angle of the rods.... Maybe a down angle main? 

Otherwise, I think DL and face contact are good explanation for "misses" but not the pin motion I think you are describing.


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## EPLC (May 21, 2002)

I can only speak for myself. Having the same type of inconsistent left right issues... they have gotten somewhat better by having "Center the Peep/Housing" added to my shot sequence. I also don't worry about pin movement. Watching pin movement is generally my issue when things go bad. It causes all kinds of issues. I've been shooting through a 5/8" hole in a nylon washer covering my 6X lens to train myself.


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## Fury90flier (Jun 27, 2012)

first thing to do is pull your stabs off...then see if your DL is on...forget what YOU think it is, get proper pics so you can see alignment of draw arm, bow arm facial anchor. It probably feels right but even a slight change of .125" will make a difference.


next thing you do is relearn how to control your float without your stabs. Time for blank baling again.


you'll likely find that the bow wiggles L/R at release- as mentioned this is a grip/follow through issue...

If you try to use the stab to fix this, you're only masking the issue.


Listen to what Ron is saying about pushing from the shoulder (for me it's best described as moving the shoulder blade to the target)...when done right, the bow just sits in your hand- zero wiggle.


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## ctownshooter (Jun 6, 2013)

subscribed


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## aread (Dec 25, 2009)

Could it be as simple as inconsistent anchor? 

Or maybe if you have a little face or nose contact with the string, inconsistent pressure, even a tiny bit of variation can make the difference you are seeing at 40 yards.

Have you torque tuned your rest & sight?

Several very little things that could be inconsistent and giving you those results. 
The problem may be really small and hard to find. 
If you work it out, please let us know.
Allen


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

Garceau said:


> My groups are always considerably wider than are taller
> 
> At 40 or 50 yards in my group so maybe an inch to an inch and a half tall but 3 to 4 inches wide at any given time
> 
> ...


Sometimes abrasively opinionated...I've noted before that decently tuned bows fitted to the archer are relative accurate to a good distance. I shot beside a kid (younger than me) this past weekend. He had no trouble "killing" the regulation size bull's eye out to 50 yards with his Bow Hunter bow. Weekend before a Bow Hunter shot one of the highest scores shot at this club, 394 for 400 possible. Distances ran from 13 yards out to 50 yards. I shot with him the first day where he shot 98/100 and 98/100. So he shot a 98/100 and a 100/100 the second day. Of the second day he also shot the 3 Man Scramble where 12s were counted and he and his "hat" drawn group won...

Trial and error of bow hand to the grip can resolve some issues. Like above, tension is a killer. Me, I like to feel the rise grip from the web of my hand all the way off the palm of my hand. If enforcing with the heel of my hand to get that feel I'm going to do it or let down and start over. 
Okay, you try a "grip" and you shoot it so to determine if it repeats and gives same point of impact close up and farther out. Hey, off a inch or whatever at 20 yards and arrows at 7:00 time and time again, you got something going for you. Adjust sights to give center and try it out. 

Long front stabilizer and back stabs, you start with about 0 weight and build upon it. Some one in this forum noted a 1 to 3 ratio, front to back. I have a formula in this forum that gives that 1 to 3 ratio and so far no one has tore down that formula.

I've also posted pictures some of my (light weight) stab setups - front 30" has had 3/4 oz. to as much as 3 oz. Back bars have been two different types, a Bernie's Shaker ball thing (never looked up the name) and a 10" Stringer back bar with as much as 6 oz. on the end. The Stringer positioned up or down and side to side has effect. I moved mine down and out to get it away from me. Doing so made the bow feel tipping left at the top and I disliked it. Yesterday I moved it in just 2 tiny tooth points and this made a whopper of a change - Me wike it. I made only one change to the front, removed 1/2 oz. Me doing what I'm supposed to, accuracy proved as good as ever with a bit less wiggle. Not a lover of spots, when I was on the bull's/X ring was in trouble as far back as 40 yards (I rarely exceed 40). No circle to stay in, I did much better on the 3D inserts, going for 12s and 14s without hesitation. So testing for the week and a test hop come this weekend....
I must have tried at least 3 different combinations just this year and so far I've stayed in the top 10 (all classes) for club events. And trying everything in competition is making sure what changes you made are good or not.

No one that I can remember in this forum has related of having a mental check off list. Brian quite capable, a check off list a "mile long" takes hardly anytime at all to go through. Stand correctly, bow arm so, hand to grip so, anchor where it should be and whatever else one wants to add.


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## Garceau (Sep 3, 2010)

thanks guys I am taking it all in.

I have been busy and havent been able to shoot as much as I like. Therefore I dont want to go messing with anything until I am shooting well. 

this work thing is getting in the way!


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## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

You know garceau, I was just thinking about this month and how I would like to finish my season in asa and I kept telling myself that I need to step back and just shoot and let my arrow go where it has gone all season. I don't need to worry or force things to happen, to me you may need to step back a little and just let yourself shoot with no expectations of the arrow hitting the spot. 

I have a feeling that you are trying to stop the horizontal float pattern and you are hoping that you don't miss left or right.


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## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

How about this training session, I do this sometimes and it is relaxing and enjoyable.

1. make a mark so you can put your sight back to the original location.

2. now move the windage way over so you are going to hit about 6 inches to the left and start shooting and every shot put a click into the windage.

3. keep shooting until you move the arrow 6 inches to the right of the bulleseye.



There are many little things you can do with this kind of shooting session and one of them is to relax and enjoy watching the arrow move on the target. I have found that if you do this drill it will give you a window to the left and the right and you can then narrow that window down for a couple days and then be dead on perfect.

During this drill the fact that you are forcing the arrow to hit off to the side will allow you to relax when aiming and enjoy the shooting because you are missing and it is ok but then as you narrow down the window and start finding the tru center it is rewarding.


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## possum trapper (Nov 24, 2005)

I will add to the piece which may or may not help which I believe does help to a certain extent.What everyone calls speed nocks or sleeves on the string.I don't know if you use them or not but I don't use them for speed I use them to keep my left and rights to a minimum.they keep tension on the string so the whip of the string is not doing the floppy chicken when fired but I do believe it helps


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## N7709K (Dec 17, 2008)

I do similar with twist rates in the finished set and how the limbs are pre loaded.


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## swbuckmaster (Dec 20, 2005)

N7709K said:


> both hands relaxed, the release doesn't hang up?
> 
> i'd start with shortening dl a touch and adding an oz up front; from there i'd work through the bars and DL until the dot sits inside big 10 at 18m. at that point i'd move to 50m and shoot a 720 or two and get an idea of the pattern. if its better but still persistent i'd look towards hard hands, face contact, and slight variations in release angle.


This


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