# Insane level of shooting Korean style ...



## DarkMuppet (Oct 23, 2013)

So while the rest of the world were busy at the World Championships, this went down in Korea .... :mg:

















It probably won't stand as a new World record as it wasn't shot in an open tournament that anyone could enter, but it's a new Korean one, and they obviously thought it was important enough to get Park Sung-Hyun to pop over and congratulate her..... :wink:


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## chrstphr (Nov 23, 2005)

Wow


Chris


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

That 50M score is a little weak. Must have gotten bored shooting 10's. :laugh:


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## lksseven (Mar 21, 2010)

Stunning - 15 years was a long time for Park's 1405 to stand.


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## chrstphr (Nov 23, 2005)

still room for improvement. Only a 358 at 30. two points for the taking there. Same for Park SungHyun. I think she also had a 358 at 30 meters for her 1405 score. 




Chris


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## monterey (Feb 16, 2015)

Here's a link to the web site: (google translate will make it easier to navigate - click on "South" to see the women's scores.)

https://www.archery.or.kr/archer/games/result/countryDet.do?gmId=AR029&gmYear=2019&gmMth=AR001&mixYn=One&initGb=Y


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## PregnantGuppy (Jan 15, 2011)

The archer's name is 유수정 (Yoo Soo Jeong, but apparently she uses the romanization Ryoo Su Jung). She also holds the indoor world record of 595 since December last year. Seems to be another excellent Korean archery that we haven't had the chance to see before because there's just way too many of them to fit on one team 

Edit: Also, a slightly interesting fact. I watched the World Championships finals this Sunday, and I asked my Korean friends if they watched the tournament on the weekend. They immediately mentioned this score instead, but they didn't even seem aware that the World Championships were going on. This isn't the first time, either; they seem to consider most World Archery events to be bonus, but the real competition for them is within Korea


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## tooold (Jul 26, 2015)

Imagine shooting 1381 and coming second!


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## naveedgt (May 9, 2012)

tooold said:


> Imagine shooting 1381 and coming second!


Imagine shooting 1381


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## lksseven (Mar 21, 2010)

Imagine shooting 1300 :darkbeer:


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## DarkMuppet (Oct 23, 2013)

lksseven said:


> Imagine shooting 1300 :darkbeer:


Imagine being the only one on the field who DOESN'T ..... :mg:

https://www.archery.or.kr/archer/ga...07&gmYear=2019&gmMth=AR001&mixYn=One&initGb=Y


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## lksseven (Mar 21, 2010)

DarkMuppet said:


> Imagine being the only one on the field who DOESN'T ..... :mg:
> 
> https://www.archery.or.kr/archer/ga...07&gmYear=2019&gmMth=AR001&mixYn=One&initGb=Y
> 
> View attachment 6853031


:cocktail: Sadly, that requires no imagination for me at all!!!!! 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=efHVcgUajtA


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## Stash (Jun 1, 2002)

How hard can it be? I mean, I do recall shooting a 60 end once at 70, and a 59 at 60 (we used to shoot a round in Canada that included a 60m distance for men). I know I’ve shot 30s and 29s at 50, but maybe not in a row, but a 58 for sure, and I’ve shot lots of 60s at 30. So all you need to do is all of these, 6 times in a row each, without screwing up. Easy 1420+ score. 

Next challenge, please.


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## lees (Feb 10, 2017)

Agree, what's all the fuss about, it's not that hard. Even I shot good yesterday. Well, once..... 

lee


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## lksseven (Mar 21, 2010)

PregnantGuppy said:


> The archer's name is 유수정 (Yoo Soo Jeong, but apparently she uses the romanization Ryoo Su Jung). She also holds the indoor world record of 595 since December last year. Seems to be another excellent Korean archery that we haven't had the chance to see before because there's just way too many of them to fit on one team
> 
> Edit: Also, a slightly interesting fact. I watched the World Championships finals this Sunday, and I asked my Korean friends if they watched the tournament on the weekend. They immediately mentioned this score instead, but they didn't even seem aware that the World Championships were going on. This isn't the first time, either; they seem to consider most World Archery events to be bonus, but the real competition for them is within Korea


I'm not "arguing this position", but mildly amused that "the sky is falling crowd" could have a field day if so desired - "Kim Woojin got upset out in the first round of the 2016 Oly, and now in the most important tournament before the Olympics 2020 none of the Korean men made it even to the Quarterfinals of World Championships, and lots of new up and comers did. Is something wrong with the Korean juggernaut? Do they need to rethink their training for elimination rounds? Is this the breeze that announces the coming tornado?"

But in any case, in the interest of seeing good dramatic competitions up the ladder, your Korean friends might want to consider rethinking that insular perspective. Or not, of course.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

An argument could be made that the single elimination format is all that prevents archery from being removed from the Olympic games, the way Softball was, because the same country kept winning every Olympic cycle.


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## DarkMuppet (Oct 23, 2013)

limbwalker said:


> An argument could be made that the single elimination format is all that prevents archery from being removed from the Olympic games, the way Softball was, because the same country kept winning every Olympic cycle.


This is pretty much it. 


I won't pre-empt the article, but I believe there's going to be something published on this very subject, very soon.


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## tkaap (Nov 30, 2009)

This score is amazing. Great shooting!



limbwalker said:


> That 50M score is a little weak. Must have gotten bored shooting 10's. :laugh:


I'm fully aware that you're joking, but I felt like running some numbers on this. 


The first thing to note is that the apparent angle for 50 meters is the smallest of the four distances:

Distance : Angle (in degrees)
70(122cm) : 1.00
60(122cm) : 1.16
50(80cm) : 0.92
30(80cm) : 1.53

Nearly everyone in that tournament had a lower 50 meter score, but by 2-4% on a target that is closer, but 8% smaller by aiming angle. Ryoo's falloff at 50m was similar to everyone's (~2% from her 70m score), but her 70m score was 2% higher than everyone else's.

Compared to the part of the field over 1300, Ryoo Su Jung shot over average: +16 at 70, +11.6 at 60, +16.4 at 50, and +8.8 at 30.
Over the Top Ten, Ryoo Su Jung shot over average: +9 at 70, +5.5 at 60, +8.5 at 50, and +6.6 at 30.

She was 1-2% better at each distance. Especially on each day's long distance. So she crushed the field.

Chart of the top ten scores. Doesn't even need labels.


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## PregnantGuppy (Jan 15, 2011)

lksseven said:


> I'm not "arguing this position", but mildly amused that "the sky is falling crowd" could have a field day if so desired - "Kim Woojin got upset out in the first round of the 2016 Oly, and now in the most important tournament before the Olympics 2020 none of the Korean men made it even to the Quarterfinals of World Championships, and lots of new up and comers did. Is something wrong with the Korean juggernaut? Do they need to rethink their training for elimination rounds? Is this the breeze that announces the coming tornado?"
> 
> But in any case, in the interest of seeing good dramatic competitions up the ladder, your Korean friends might want to consider rethinking that insular perspective. Or not, of course.


While I agree with your last point because I also want to see better competition, I really don't think they care much. It's a very different philosophy and goals that they have towards shooting. Not just because they compete with themselves for the most part, but for them it also just seems to be a job (which it technically is). As an example, the only time I've seen them excited about and tracking live scores was when one of them was in the selection tournament for the national team. I don't really see them excited over the latest tournament like many people in this forum do. So as long as they keep shooting and keep getting paid, I don't think they terribly care what tournaments they shoot. Now, if Korea suddenly was unable to put forth archers that can actually win at the Olympics, I wonder if Hyundai and the other big companies would pull their funding, but that's a completely different debate.

To be fair, I haven't really had a good conversation about this with them. Language barrier is still very much a thing; while most Koreans learn some level of English, archers tend to have spent more time at the range than at the classroom, so they don't really know the language very well. Maybe I'll try to get their perspective on this; it could be interesting to see how their outlook on the sport differs from ours.



tkaap said:


> Chart of the top ten scores. Doesn't even need labels.
> View attachment 6853243


I really like this way to visualize the scores. A few things immediately pop out. First, Ryoo's score is significantly higher than that of other competitors, which is very interesting considering all archers at the event probably train under similar circumstances (especially her teammates). The lead at 70m and 50m is specially big. It also makes it clear that Yoon Mi-Jin's score was only really marred by a bad 50m score; she was otherwise right in the middle of the pack.


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## tkaap (Nov 30, 2009)

PregnantGuppy said:


> I really like this way to visualize the scores. A few things immediately pop out.


It's great for this tournament's results. It doesn't always show as cleanly as this, but when one archer wins all four distances, it works.


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## jmvargas (Oct 21, 2004)

Stash said:


> How hard can it be? I mean, I do recall shooting a 60 end once at 70, and a 59 at 60 (we used to shoot a round in Canada that included a 60m distance for men). I know I’ve shot 30s and 29s at 50, but maybe not in a row, but a 58 for sure, and I’ve shot lots of 60s at 30. So all you need to do is all of these, 6 times in a row each, without screwing up. Easy 1420+ score.
> 
> Next challenge, please.


....I have also birdied or eagled ALL the 18 holes in my par 72 home golf course through the years---eagled all 4 par-5s and eagled 1 par-4 and birdied all the remaining 13 holes. Easy 49 score..


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

jmvargas said:


> ....I have also birdied or eagled ALL the 18 holes in my par 72 home golf course through the years---eagled all 4 par-5s and eagled 1 par-4 and birdied all the remaining 13 holes. Easy 49 score..


LOL - that's one way to look at it! 

I think I saw a scorecard from Jack Nicklaus with all the best scores from each hole at the Masters over his career. I believe it was a 42. LOL


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## Stash (Jun 1, 2002)

Nicklaus doesn't hold a candle to the Koreans...



> North Korean leader Kim Jong-Il once carded 38-under par at Pyongyang Golf Course back in 1994.
> The North Korean dictator scorched the 7,700-yard Pyongyang Golf Course in a stunning 38-under par, 34.
> 
> Now, before getting all bent out of shape that such a score is impossible or clearly the product of creative scorekeeping on the part of the “Dear Leader,” it’s important to note that witnesses attest to his great round.
> ...


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## Gregjlongbow (Jun 15, 2016)

I am also trying to keep a level head about the Korean dominance. Of course, they are the most dominant country for archery at any given time, but they are far from actually winning every tournament. It’s still great competition out there, and very exciting to watch. I think if you really breakdown why Korea is so dominant, it is the depth of their rosters. If Brady’s current run on the world stage doesn’t inspire organizations here at home to our more money and effort into recruiting and cultivating talent, I don’t know what will. He’s on fire! 

Also, it’s no secret what a Kim Woojin fanboy I am. 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## jmvargas (Oct 21, 2004)

i made a similar post in the thread on the odds of making the olympic team but now think it's more appropriate here..

I just watched a video on Youtube on how Korea became an Olympic archery legend and aside from showing and describing their training and development regiment which only THEY can do, I was struck by an observation made by a European world class lady archer and world champion who trained in Korea regularly several months a year in preparation for all her international competition-----"the Americans are more concerned about where the arrows go, the Koreans just concentrate on developing their form.."


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## DarkMuppet (Oct 23, 2013)

Yoo Soo Jeong shot another 1400 last week (the lady at the top of this thread).
Maybe we'll see her make the A team next year... 😉 
View attachment 6875779


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## PregnantGuppy (Jan 15, 2011)

DarkMuppet said:


> Yoo Soo Jeong shot another 1400 last week (the lady at the top of this thread).
> Maybe we'll see her make the A team next year... &#55357;&#56841;


But she was also out in eliminations on her first match after two byes. Actually, it might have been her second match; I forget exactly. But the point is that she seems to shoot incredible qualification scores, yet they don't translate into matches. It would be really incredible to see her out of Korea, though.


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## Vittorio (Jul 17, 2003)

PregnantGuppy said:


> But she was also out in eliminations on her first match after two byes. Actually, it might have been her second match; I forget exactly. But the point is that she seems to shoot incredible qualification scores, yet they don't translate into matches. It would be really incredible to see her out of Korea, though.


The path they follow to get better in matches has been made evident during last years. Most proabably you will see her around during Indoor World Cup this winter, only way to train for matches at top internatonal level before the start of the outdor season.


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## PregnantGuppy (Jan 15, 2011)

Vittorio said:


> The path they follow to get better in matches has been made evident during last years. Most proabably you will see her around during Indoor World Cup this winter, only way to train for matches at top internatonal level before the start of the outdor season.


Well, if we want to get specific, she has done some international events before.She did the Macau Open last year, and she's done a few events as a university student/youth athlete. And from the results, she's clearly competitive on a global level. But in Korea only, she seems to struggle against other competitors for some reason.


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## lksseven (Mar 21, 2010)

PregnantGuppy said:


> Well, if we want to get specific, she has done some international events before.She did the Macau Open last year, and she's done a few events as a university student/youth athlete. And from the results, she's clearly competitive on a global level. But in Korea only, she seems to struggle against other competitors for some reason.


Can you link to the Macau Open results from last year?


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## DarkMuppet (Oct 23, 2013)

https://worldarchery.org/competition/19624/macau-indoor-archery-open#/qualification/RW/individual

I think Korea just edged the qualification.. 😉


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## lksseven (Mar 21, 2010)

DarkMuppet said:


> https://worldarchery.org/competition/19624/macau-indoor-archery-open#/qualification/RW/individual
> 
> I think Korea just edged the qualification.. &#55357;&#56841;


Ahh, yes. I saw that page, but was looking for "Yoo Soo Jeong". I had forgotten it was mentioned she goes by another version "Ryoo Su Jung".

Certainly a super small sample size of just a few high profile anecdotal observations, but is Korea having a problem with their collective elimination match performance? This gal has tremendous sublime skill, obviously, but her head2head apparently doesn't yet keep up; no Korean in mens Vegas Final; Korean females tank in team final against TaiPei; Korean female fails to win gold in ind. final; no Korean men make it to the quarter finals of World Championships; Kim Woo Jin is amazing archer, but doesn't have a sterling record of being Godzilla in head2head ( this World Champs, last Olympics). 

I'm sure I'm forgetting much of the other tournament results where it's "Koreans win 5 out of 8 golds ... same-o same-o" ... but would the recent spate of stumbles be enough to rise to the level of having national Korean coaches questioning their recent training/prep methods?


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## lees (Feb 10, 2017)

Not meaning to be a heretic, but KIM JongHo shot a perfect 150 at the Hyundai world championships a week or two ago. So, apart from just his individual accomplishment, I think the Koreans are coming after the compound bow with everything they got too:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P-qN5TQWKkQ

lee.


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## PregnantGuppy (Jan 15, 2011)

lksseven said:


> Ahh, yes. I saw that page, but was looking for "Yoo Soo Jeong". I had forgotten it was mentioned she goes by another version "Ryoo Su Jung".
> 
> Certainly a super small sample size of just a few high profile anecdotal observations, but is Korea having a problem with their collective elimination match performance? This gal has tremendous sublime skill, obviously, but her head2head apparently doesn't yet keep up; no Korean in mens Vegas Final; Korean females tank in team final against TaiPei; Korean female fails to win gold in ind. final; no Korean men make it to the quarter finals of World Championships; Kim Woo Jin is amazing archer, but doesn't have a sterling record of being Godzilla in head2head ( this World Champs, last Olympics).
> 
> I'm sure I'm forgetting much of the other tournament results where it's "Koreans win 5 out of 8 golds ... same-o same-o" ... but would the recent spate of stumbles be enough to rise to the level of having national Korean coaches questioning their recent training/prep methods?


One thing I've noted from my Korean friends is that they rarely ever practice matches. As I've mentioned in other threads, they mostly show up and shoot 70m every day, occasionally shooting a FITA round for score to check progress. But they only seem to shoot a team round for practice maybe four times a year. Maybe they expect their top archers to get more practice in matches from regular tournaments, and maybe other teams have more regular match practice, but to me it seems that their training in that area is somewhat deficient.


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## jmvargas (Oct 21, 2004)

it's not a big deal anymore for me to see exceptional performances from the Koreans as it has been more the norm rather than the exception for the last 30 years..

.....what would be a big deal would be another country making significant inroads to their dominance in this sport but unfortunately I do not see much of this in the future although we do see sporadic excellent performances from Italy, India, China ,Mexico and even Turkey...

Compared to their previous dominance however, the United States is sadly but a shadow of the force they USED to be in Olympic archery and may even lose whatever dominance they now have in compound---also to the Koreans-----unless they make significant strategic changes..


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## chrstphr (Nov 23, 2005)

Moldova seems to be coming along with their program.

USA Archery is now seeing the results of having NTS forced on our best and brightest for more than a decade. The OTC program has ruined more than it helped or made. 

The fault lies completely there.

Chris


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## Vittorio (Jul 17, 2003)

About Korean dominance, it is still there and strong, but of course if you consider the number of professional archers in the world and the fact that they concentrate presence to main competitions, the number of concretely competitive archers is increasd dramatically, and of course the apex of presences has been reached at World Championships were Olympic quota places was the real target.

If there was no limit to the number of archers by country in compettions, then there is no game for others , like it is already happening in Indoor world cup, that is becoming more and more a Korean Indoor world cup only.
But at World championships, it is 3 against 200, were around 100 can be competitive in the set system 
Much easier for them on a limited field of participants like Olympic Games, 3 against 61, were probably only 40 can be competitive. 

Anyhow, let's make it simple:
- The winner is nowdays usually a 690 level archer for Men and a 670 level archer for women
- The 690 level archers for men are presently KIM WooJin, LEE Seung Yun, Lee Woo Seuk, Brady Ellison, Mauro Nespoli, Sief Van Del Berg, Mete Gazoz (3 over 7)
- The 670 level for women is filled by too many names to list from 692 to 670 in this season, so results are more unpredictable at least up to the quarter of finals (5 over may be 25 ) 
- Training for matches *against unknowns competitors* of same level is possible at internaitonal compeititions only,so those that are frequent fliyers usually have advantage during top level matches.


And a the end, everything goes back to money and more than to the amount, how you spend it in your archery system. Great Britain is a clear example were less money in comparison to 2011 is giving more results. Bielorussia (more funds because of Europen Games) being the other example.


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## lksseven (Mar 21, 2010)

Vittorio said:


> About Korean dominance, it is still there and strong, but of course if you consider the number of professional archers in the world and the fact that they concentrate presence to main competitions, the number of concretely competitive archers is increasd dramatically, and of course the apex of presences has been reached at World Championships were Olympic quota places was the real target.
> 
> If there was no limit to the number of archers by country in compettions, then there is no game for others , like it is already happening in Indoor world cup, that is becoming more and more a Korean Indoor world cup only.
> But at World championships, it is 3 against 200, were around 100 can be competitive in the set system
> ...


Vittorio, not to take all of your Sunday, but how specifically has Great Britain changed 'how' they spend their archery dollars that is now producing better results?


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## DarkMuppet (Oct 23, 2013)

lksseven said:


> Vittorio, not to take all of your Sunday, but how specifically has Great Britain changed 'how' they spend their archery dollars that is now producing better results?


GB's good results recently can be pretty much put down to the raw talent of quite a few good archers that have gelled together well at the training facility, with the coach, Olympian Richard Priestman, who is just a thoroughly nice guy who knows exactly what he's doing and how to get the best of his archers.
I'm not really aware they've invested any money differently to usual, I'd say their good results are down to a solid practice regime.


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## jmvargas (Oct 21, 2004)

Vittorio..

I have no problem with your explanations with regards to Korean dominance but it always seems to be a rationalization as to why the other countries cannot catch up..

And your ending with regards to the money and how it is spent is spot on but is nothing new..

let's just all recognize and admit Korea's dominance as of now and also admit the deficiencies on our own country's system and all work towards closing the gap..

my point is you are not saying any new anymore but just repeating previous observations albeit with updated figures..

--without Brady for example the USA would be nothing in the current world Olympic archery picture..

as a start why not cherry pick then on all the effective practices Brady is doing and see what is applicable to the US archery program..

same with all the individuals from other countries which are on the similar world class level of the Koreans that you mentioned ...

notwithstanding their individual talents and personal motivations there MIGHT be some things in their practice or training regimens that could help the archery programs of other Western countries because in my opinion they will have a hard time emulating the practices of the countries in the Far East ..

this is just my personal opinion as a very interested observer but one who has also been involved in the development of archery in my country but a bit frustrated now because of the politics involved..


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## Vittorio (Jul 17, 2003)

jmvargas, there is nothing new in my note, as there is nothing new under the sun of archery. 

Korea with their large 1500 professional archers can sort out 5 x 690 level men 
Rest of the world with a total number of professionals much less than Korea alone has now sorted out 4 only (may be 5 if you add Furukawa) 

It is simply a dream to be able in some misterious way to sort out more than 1 690 level archer from each country. 

Today USA is nothing without Brady, same as Italy is nothing without Nespoli, Turkey without Gazoz and Netherland without Van Der Berg. But in any case there are 4 archers that are competitive against Koreans, and this is first time since so many years (since 2003-2004). 

Everything is related to money only and let's make it even simpler:

25K US$/year salary to 1500 professionals = 37.5 MILLIONS US$ /YEAR investment to keep dominance in archery, that x 30 Years already means >> 1 BILLION US$ investment on archers only. Not so difficult to understand how they can get some return and why no other can or will.


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## jmvargas (Oct 21, 2004)

Vittorio said:


> jmvargas, there is nothing new in my note, as there is nothing new under the sun of archery.
> 
> Korea with their large 1500 professional archers can sort out 5 x 690 level men
> Rest of the world with a total number of professionals much less than Korea alone has now sorted out 4 only (may be 5 if you add Furukawa)
> ...


..Well said and I totally agree..

but again nothing new except for the updated figures ...

thank you..

PS: again as a start ...why not follow the Korean lead on the 1500 professionals but bring it down to more manageable /affordable figures--ie--50-100.

...just saying..

I also realize it is not an easy task to do in convincing the powers that be but we have to try..

my 1st cousin recently resigned as President of the Philippine Olympic Committee due to the politics involved..


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## John_K (Oct 30, 2011)

Without disagreeing with the points above, such discussions often tend to skip over or ignore the foundation of Korea's dominance: the fact they have a school-based system, not a club-based one. That's why you have so many archers coming up through the ranks and competing so heavily for the national team.

Of course, that costs a lot of money as well; it's just that it's spent in a different way.


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## Vittorio (Jul 17, 2003)

John_K said:


> Without disagreeing with the points above, such discussions often tend to skip over or ignore the foundation of Korea's dominance: the fact they have a school-based system, not a club-based one. That's why you have so many archers coming up through the ranks and competing so heavily for the national team.
> 
> Of course, that costs a lot of money as well; it's just that it's spent in a different way.


Sorry to say that this is not a chicken and egg debate, but a carrot and donkey system, only. The School programs (donkey) follow the carrot ( potential salary in business teams, life pension and so on). No carrots, no donkeys . 


I have no idea about number of professional archers in all countries, but I have precise numbers and names for Italy.

Recurve Men:
Air Force: 7
Prisons Police: 1

Recurve Women:
Air Force: 6
Prisons Police: 1
Police: 2

Compound Men:
Prisons Police: 2 

Compound Women:
Prisons Police: 1
Navy: 2

Bare Bow Men:
- none

Bare Bow Women:
Police: 1 

21 archers, were someone is no more active already, and at present 1 x 690 level in Recurve Men (Nespoli) and 1 x 660 level in Recurve Women (Andreoli). 
Unfortunately the system is a pure chicken and egg one: you will not enter in any military corp to get a salary, if you don't score high level, but you can not score high level if you don't have a salary. So the simple result is that all of them have first scored high level with money from their families . And some still do, as salaries are very low in comparison to cost of archery and living. 
Objective limit to results: money, as said many times already and as everyone knows.


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## jmvargas (Oct 21, 2004)

Vittorio..

I fully understand where you're coming from..

but consider this: if you have a strong and credible national archery association it is not that difficult to get sponsors for your programs..

you just have to make sure that any potential sponsor you approach is sympathetic to your sport and they have the necessary resources..

we have plenty of those in my country but they tend to choose the sports they like and those that will give them the most for their buck--ie--basketball, golf, boxing, shooting come to mind..

these are proven gold medal winners perhaps not yet in the Olympics but in the lesser games including the Asian Games, the South East Asian(SEA) games, and many other regional competitions..

now that weightlifting got a silver in Rio there are many sponsors also for this sport..

Italy has already gotten many medals for archery in international events including an Olympic Gold so you already have a good start..

the sports leader should be youngish and well connected in the government and private sectors and being independently wealthy will be a big help..

then you will have a GODFATHER for archery..


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## John_K (Oct 30, 2011)

Vittorio said:


> Sorry to say that this is not a chicken and egg debate, but a carrot and donkey system, only. The School programs (donkey) follow the carrot ( potential salary in business teams, life pension and so on). No carrots, no donkeys .


I completely agree, Vittorio. I just meant that the school-based system often gets left out of the discussions about what makes Korea such a successful archery nation


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## Vittorio (Jul 17, 2003)

News from WA:

https://worldarchery.org/news/172954/lee-woo-seok-san-withdraw-2019-hyundai-archery-world-cup-final

We will not see Lee Woo Seuk, An San and also Lee Seug Yun in Moscow for the Wolrd cup final, as they decided to concentrate to the qualification process for the 2020 Olympic team.


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## PregnantGuppy (Jan 15, 2011)

Vittorio said:


> News from WA:
> 
> https://worldarchery.org/news/172954/lee-woo-seok-san-withdraw-2019-hyundai-archery-world-cup-final
> 
> We will not see Lee Woo Seuk, An San and also Lee Seug Yun in Moscow for the Wolrd cup final, as they decided to concentrate to the qualification process for the 2020 Olympic team.


I can see their reasoning. Lee Woo Seok already has a World Cup gold, so for him the next step up is the Olympics. And An San is only 18, so she may get a few more chances to compete for the World Cup, whereas the Olympics aren't as frequent. Still an interesting development for sure


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## >--gt--> (Jul 1, 2002)

Logical, considering the relative disaster that the World Championship was for them.


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## Vittorio (Jul 17, 2003)

>--gt--> said:


> Logical, considering the relative disaster that the World Championship was for them.


More e a personal choice or Team choice rather than a Federation choice. Kim Woojin, Bae Jaehyeon and Kang Chae Young will be in Moscow.

To note also that An San , 18 years and surely the top of the world for her age, is NOT going also to Madrid for the World Junior Championships. This was more predictable.


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## Roof_Korean (Dec 19, 2018)

jmvargas said:


> i made a similar post in the thread on the odds of making the olympic team but now think it's more appropriate here..
> 
> I just watched a video on Youtube on how Korea became an Olympic archery legend and aside from showing and describing their training and development regiment which only THEY can do, I was struck by an observation made by a European world class lady archer and world champion who trained in Korea regularly several months a year in preparation for all her international competition-----"the Americans are more concerned about where the arrows go, the Koreans just concentrate on developing their form.."


"Fundamentally, the marksman aims at himself." -D.T. Suzuki


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## jmvargas (Oct 21, 2004)

Roof_Korean said:


> "Fundamentally, the marksman aims at himself." -D.T. Suzuki


..and THAT--in a nutshell--is why the Western can never catch up with the East in this sport..


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## lksseven (Mar 21, 2010)

Roof_Korean said:


> "Fundamentally, the marksman aims at himself." -D.T. Suzuki


"I just watched a video on Youtube on how Korea became an Olympic archery legend and aside from showing and describing their training and development regiment which only THEY can do, I was struck by an observation made by a European world class lady archer and world champion who trained in Korea regularly several months a year in preparation for all her international competition-----"the Americans are more concerned about where the arrows go, the Koreans just concentrate on developing their form..""

From Zen and the Art of Archery .... "By archery in the traditional sense, which he esteems as an art and honors as a national heritage, the Japanese does not understand a sport but, strange as this may sound at first, a religious ritual. And consequently, byu the “art” of archery he does not mean the ability of the sportsman, which can be controlled, more or less, by bodily exercises, but an ability whose origin is to be sought in spiritual exercises and whose aim consists in hitting a spiritual goal, so that fundamentally the marksman aims at himself and may even succeed in hitting himself.

♥ Should one ask, from this standpoint, how the Japanese Masters understand this contest of the archer with himself, and how they describe it, their answer would sound enigmatic in the extreme. For them the contest consists in the archer aiming at himself - and yet not at himself, in hitting himself - and yet not himself, and thus becoming simultaneously the aimer and the aim, the hitter and the hit. Or, to use some expressions which are nearest the heart of the Masters, it is necessary for the archer to become, in spite of himself, an unmoved center. Then comes the supreme and ultimate miracle: art becomes “artless,” shooting becomes not-shooting, a shooting without bow and arrow; the teacher becomes a pupil again, the Master a beginner, the end a beginning, and the beginning perfection."

The above is beautiful sentiment, and cool. But ...


Sorry, I don't buy this line of reasoning at all - that Korea 1) currently superior because of a strain of Eastern Zen/archery metaphor. Korea isn't in the spot they're in because they're reading Zen and the Art of Archery, all little marksmen aiming at themselves. They're on top because of the incredible apparatus they have built (with clear eyed resolve and planning) of sustaining cold, hard logistics and business practices resulting in having 1000+ professional archers working full time to make their international travel teams and secure financial futures for themselves. 

And the American mindset seemed adequate for the decades that American, not Korea, owned this sport - mens' Olympic podium medals all over the place, and mens golds in '72, '76, 'woulda been in '80, '84, '88, '96. For decades in the middle of the last century, the Yankees seemed destined to be permanently fixed atop the baseball world, an invincible dynasty. But History is a long walk, and things usually eventually change. 

Some steady, dramaless support, a brilliant coach, and a few talented/committed/and cohesive young archers is all that is needed to throw a monkey wrench into the current hegemony. That's certainly not inevitable, but it's certainly possible/doable. 

That's one person's take, anyway.


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## PregnantGuppy (Jan 15, 2011)

lksseven said:


> The above is beautiful sentiment, and cool. But ...
> 
> 
> Sorry, I don't buy this line of reasoning at all - that Korea 1) currently superior because of a strain of Eastern Zen/archery metaphor. Korea isn't in the spot they're in because they're reading Zen and the Art of Archery, all little marksmen aiming at themselves. They're on top because of the incredible apparatus they have built (with clear eyed resolve and planning) of sustaining cold, hard logistics and business practices resulting in having 1000+ professional archers working full time to make their international travel teams and secure financial futures for themselves.
> ...


I would take that dominance with a huge grain of salt, though. The difference in resources and population at that time were significant. Most of the countries we recognize as top in the world now were either recovering from WW2, recovering from other wars, or Soviet. The USA had a massive advantage in almost every resource for a long time, so obviously more leisurely endeavors like amateur sports would be dominated by the USA.

That being said, I do agree that it's not quite correct to assign all credit of the Korean success to one training philosophy. Their training system is a fantastic organization, and although the actual archery technique might be a good part of why it works well, the actual organization is probably a better explanation for their dominance.


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## Draven Olary (Jun 12, 2016)

Roof_Korean said:


> "Fundamentally, the marksman aims at himself." -D.T. Suzuki





jmvargas said:


> ..and THAT--in a nutshell--is why the Western can never catch up with the East in this sport..


This is so wrong on so many levels, that I don't know where to start. But I will say just the "aiming at himself" is worthless without the knowledge the practitioner receives. That knowledge is passed down and the practitioner's main purpose is to hone his skills until that passed down knowledge becomes his. In western world is happening the same. An archer receives knowledge and is honing his skills through training. I don't think a "western"competitive archer is not making that knowledge received, HIS. They might not catch yet (based on some opinions) due to the lack of ancient knowledge in archery that is shared by "new" archery in countries with continuous archery tradition, but the more the archery knowledge becomes "internationalized" the less the gap is. And knowledge is accumulating, is not stagnant to one era. 

PS You have to understand that archery in Japan had a purpose: to kill humans in combat. Since it became obsolete and it is not acceptable to say "I am training with a bow and arrow to become good at killing people", the purpose was moved toward personal development with the intent of keeping alive an ancient art of war - passing down the knowledge. "Aiming at yourself" has many layers, one of them being "accepting the result as consequence of your own training". This is part of the western training too, just it is not said with same words.


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## Roof_Korean (Dec 19, 2018)

I was simply responding to a statement with a quote i found relevant. You guys are reading into it waaaaaay to much. 
Someone stated that the koreans are more interested in practicing form than seeing where their arrows land. As an archer i find that to be a great shot you need to focus on changing, or "aiming", at yourself rather than trying to change where the arrows land. Most of us do not enjoy blank baling but its good practice, and shooting at a target cannot take its place. 
The fact that the quote is from a japanese philosopher is completely inconsequential, and kyudo has more in common with modern competitive archery than you think, it is also not for killing people, as you say.
As for knowledge, Brady Ellision and Kim Woojin both have unconventional styles (and setups), do you think that knowledge was passed down to them or was it something they discovered with their coaches. I would speculate it was gained through self reflection of the shot process. Theres a reason we use cameras as a training tool, its important to look at our shot process.


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## Draven Olary (Jun 12, 2016)

You understood that the message is not for you, but the gent who quoted you, right? Selective reading doesn't work, sorry. Some dojos have a wooden horse to shoot from and based on my knowledge you need to be japanese with good roots (read samurai roots) to be allowed to shoot outside or from a horse. Horse archery is not honing your skills to hit the X of a target. Until recently enough competition was not even something kyudo wanted to be part of. But this topic is not about japanese archery and I find Zen quotes forced on the korean archery like a Ford truck painted in flower power pattern. And odd when actually they try to explain something that it is not there, no matter how patriotic someone wants to be.
Brady Ellison is what he is due to his Coach, KSL. No matter what someone says, I stand with this story. And I think you have no idea how knowledge becomes yours: through personal study, breaking apart what you are taught, understanding it and adjusting it to you. Japense named this learning process Shu-Ha-Ri. But enough with this subject, back to awesomeness of the korean archers please.


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## Roof_Korean (Dec 19, 2018)

Draven Olary said:


> You understood that the message is not for you, but the gent who quoted you, right? Selective reading doesn't work, sorry. Some dojos have a wooden horse to shoot from and based on my knowledge you need to be japanese with good roots (read samurai roots) to be allowed to shoot outside or from a horse. Horse archery is not honing your skills to hit the X of a target. Until recently enough competition was not even something kyudo wanted to be part of. But this topic is not about japanese archery and I find Zen quotes forced on the korean archery like a Ford truck painted in flower power pattern. And odd when actually they try to explain something that it is not there, no matter how patriotic someone wants to be.
> Brady Ellison is what he is due to his Coach, KSL. No matter what someone says, I stand with this story. And I think you have no idea how knowledge becomes yours: through personal study, breaking apart what you are taught, understanding it and adjusting it to you. Japense named this learning process Shu-Ha-Ri. But enough with this subject, back to awesomeness of the korean archers please.


So critisizing my post by "talking" about it to another person means i have no right to address you? Your passive agressiveness is on a completely different level man.


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## jmvargas (Oct 21, 2004)

in the end I believe it comes down to the difference in culture--specifically discipline-- between the East and the West..

..and if you can't get it yet---that's on you.


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## chrstphr (Nov 23, 2005)

Draven Olary said:


> Brady Ellison is what he is due to his Coach, KSL.


 let's be real here. 

Brady is what he is due to his Coach Mel Nichols. 


Chris


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## jmvargas (Oct 21, 2004)

chrstphr said:


> let's be real here.
> 
> Brady is what he is due to his Coach Mel Nichols.
> 
> ...


..maybe you can agree that it's due to his COACHES???


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## chrstphr (Nov 23, 2005)

jmvargas said:


> ..maybe you can agree that it's due to his COACHES???


Yes, i would even include people like Butch Johnson. However, his statement seemed inclusive to only KSL. Which is not true. 

Brady was a two time World champion in 2004 -2005 before KSL ever started working with him. Kisik lee came to USA archery in 2006. 

So again, lets be real. 

Chris


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## Draven Olary (Jun 12, 2016)

chrstphr said:


> jmvargas said:
> 
> 
> > ..maybe you can agree that it's due to his COACHES???
> ...


Brady’s shooting is the picture perfect of the NTS. I know the debate between who’s who and who should or not be or that every teacher an archer had should have a piece of cake, but at the end counts who influenced your approach to the execution and how much you bought into it. And he bought 100% KSL’s approach to the shooting, being the single one who got it right ( by luck or by really getting it based on other comments it is not yet clear ). Is this bad? Is this good? Will be Brady’s “style” embraced by the others once KSL is no more? I have the feeling it will not be. Based on other coaches opinions, including your opinion, once KSL is gone, NTS will be the black swan between the rest. It sounds out of place, unrealistic, but for me, Brady is KSL’s creation based on the above. We agree to disagree.


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## chrstphr (Nov 23, 2005)

Draven Olary said:


> Brady’s shooting is the picture perfect of the NTS. I know the debate between who’s who and who should or not be or that every teacher an archer had should have a piece of cake, but at the end counts who influenced your approach to the execution and how much you bought into it. And he bought 100% KSL’s approach to the shooting, being the single one who got it right ( by luck or by really getting it based on other comments it is not yet clear ). Is this bad? Is this good? Will be Brady’s “style” embraced by the others once KSL is no more? I have the feeling it will not be. Based on other coaches opinions, including your opinion, once KSL is gone, NTS will be the black swan between the rest. It sounds out of place, unrealistic, but for me, Brady is KSL’s creation based on the above. We agree to disagree.


perhaps, but KSL's "NTS" was born and grew from the previous B.E.S.T. system in the USA. You will notice that none of the Australian team that Lee coached in 2004 shot anything NTS. That started once he got the the USA team and the BEST system. 

Much of NTS was taken from how KSL thought Darrell Pace was shooting his form. 

However,KSL got most of Darrell's shot wrong including the NTS bent wrist hook, KSL did not understand what Darrell was actually doing in his form.

I agree Brady has shot NTS the most successfully of all the archers shooting it. But that also fits in with his prior World Champion compound form which has common ground. 

Chris


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## Draven Olary (Jun 12, 2016)

chrstphr said:


> perhaps, but KSL's "NTS" was born and grew from the previous B.E.S.T. system in the USA. You will notice that none of the Australian team that Lee coached in 2004 shot anything NTS. That started once he got the the USA team and the BEST system.
> 
> Much of NTS was taken from how KSL thought Darrell Pace was shooting his form.
> 
> ...



Chris, this is becoming the norm between different coaches and different styles when they don't agree each other. In kyudo the Sensei who's teaching to rotate the string hand clock-wise to get a clean release will be put down by the one who's not teaching this because "they are done naturally if you execute the form". Same thing is happening in sword-fighting and mainly any sport that involves advanced body mechanics. The one who gives the hints on how to learn quicker the correct feeling will not get the approval of the others - most of the time will say: "I don't teach them this, they don't show yet they are worthy" or they purely don't understand. 
KSL took something existing - every coach I've met is doing the same thing - and put his twist on it. Some have some extra knowledge and can improve the existing, others are just teaching what they understood from that existing.
Jim Ploen has a video showing the benefits of the drawing the bow starting off the target for example - a technique he used in '60s and '70s. In his opinion this way of drawing favors the 50-50 work of the arms and scapulas and sets the shoulders at full draw using the natural movement of the shoulder joint which favors the rotation not the linearity. Based on this, KSL invented nothing - if he had access to the info - or he just reinvented the wheel.


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## tunedlow (Nov 7, 2012)

chrstphr said:


> perhaps, but KSL's "NTS" was born and grew from the previous B.E.S.T. system in the USA. You will notice that none of the Australian team that Lee coached in 2004 shot anything NTS. That started once he got the the USA team and the BEST system.
> 
> Much of NTS was taken from how KSL thought Darrell Pace was shooting his form.
> 
> ...


Did he ever bother just asking Darrell why he did what he did in his form?


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Naturally gifted athletes don't always know exactly why they do what they do, other than it feels right and it works. Darrell explained to me once, while having dinner with him and his son in Carbondale IL, how he arrived at his front shoulder position. It was not something he was taught. He arrived at that position through trial and error and once he found it, he realized it made shooting easier for him. It's really that simple. 

This is why I would always encourage my students to experiment, within of course reasonable parameters. Because you never know when a particular tweak to a conventional form is going to work better for you than what you're currently doing, and YOU are the only one who can feel it. This IMO is what Brady has done. He was given ideas by Lee but Brady's form is Brady's form. He created it and made it work based on the feedback his own body was giving him. And that's how it should be. If you don't own your shot 100% you will never reach your full potential.

We spend so much time talking about form and coaching and elite this and that, but that is really only half the equation. The other half is the individual's ability to MAKE something work for them, or make adjustments to what they have been taught so that it does work for them. Honestly, coaches get way too much credit for the success of elite athletes IMO. Coaches have much more impact on lower-performing athlete's progress than they do the elites.


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## midwayarcherywi (Sep 24, 2006)

limbwalker said:


> Naturally gifted athletes don't always know exactly why they do what they do, other than it feels right and it works. Darrell explained to me once, while having dinner with him and his son in Carbondale IL, how he arrived at his front shoulder position. It was not something he was taught. He arrived at that position through trial and error and once he found it, he realized it made shooting easier for him. It's really that simple.
> 
> This is why I would always encourage my students to experiment, within of course reasonable parameters. Because you never know when a particular tweak to a conventional form is going to work better for you than what you're currently doing, and YOU are the only one who can feel it. This IMO is what Brady has done. He was given ideas by Lee but Brady's form is Brady's form. He created it and made it work based on the feedback his own body was giving him. And that's how it should be. If you don't own your shot 100% you will never reach your full potential.
> 
> We spend so much time talking about form and coaching and elite this and that, but that is really only half the equation. The other half is the individual's ability to MAKE something work for them, or make adjustments to what they have been taught so that it does work for them. Honestly, coaches get way too much credit for the success of elite athletes IMO. Coaches have much more impact on lower-performing athlete's progress than they do the elites.


I wish there were a like button on AT. Self discovery is what separates competent from exceptional. I encourage every competent shooter to do this.


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## Draven Olary (Jun 12, 2016)

limbwalker said:


> Naturally gifted athletes don't always know exactly why they do what they do, other than it feels right and it works. Darrell explained to me once, while having dinner with him and his son in Carbondale IL, how he arrived at his front shoulder position. It was not something he was taught. He arrived at that position through trial and error and once he found it, he realized it made shooting easier for him. It's really that simple.
> 
> This is why I would always encourage my students to experiment, within of course reasonable parameters. Because you never know when a particular tweak to a conventional form is going to work better for you than what you're currently doing, and YOU are the only one who can feel it. This IMO is what Brady has done. He was given ideas by Lee but Brady's form is Brady's form. He created it and made it work based on the feedback his own body was giving him. And that's how it should be. If you don't own your shot 100% you will never reach your full potential.
> 
> We spend so much time talking about form and coaching and elite this and that, but that is really only half the equation. The other half is the individual's ability to MAKE something work for them, or make adjustments to what they have been taught so that it does work for them. Honestly, coaches get way too much credit for the success of elite athletes IMO. Coaches have much more impact on lower-performing athlete's progress than they do the elites.


Agreed. But the Coach that can make me buy his way of shooting and this shooting way checks my own tests - when I am at the level where I can do that - is the one I consider the most important. Thinking how to make yours the way the shot was explained to you is the toughest Judge on the planet. A lot of conflicts can come from this. That's why the high level shooters don't need a Coach - they need a Guide to tell them a small thing they didn't think about that will push them over the plateau. And I think Brady and KSL are checking the boxes on these.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

I wish there was a way to measure how much elite athletes learned from coaches vs. how much the coaches learned from the elite athletes.


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## Draven Olary (Jun 12, 2016)

I think this is always the case in sports that don’t follow a “lineage”. The exchange is always there, and a Coach can twist things based on his best student. If he is open-minded.


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## chrstphr (Nov 23, 2005)

tunedlow said:


> Did he ever bother just asking Darrell why he did what he did in his form?


The simple answer is no. 


Chris


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## midwayarcherywi (Sep 24, 2006)

I hope not to diverge too far but why in the world would USAA not lean on the expertise of its past champions. While I appreciate Darrell's contributions helping to run events, his true expertise is as a shooter. We have a wealth of talent!! To dismiss that talent as dated is spurious.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Draven Olary said:


> I think this is always the case in sports that don’t follow a “lineage”. The exchange is always there, and a Coach can twist things based on his best student. If he is open-minded.


Or take credit for things their student figured out on their own.


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## chrstphr (Nov 23, 2005)

midwayarcherywi said:


> I hope not to diverge too far but why in the world would USAA not lean on the expertise of its past champions. While I appreciate Darrell's contributions helping to run events, his true expertise is as a shooter. We have a wealth of talent!! To dismiss that talent as dated is spurious.


I have said this for years. We are the only country to NOT use our previous champions in our OTC program. 

Where is Rick McKinney, Darrell Pace, John Williams, Justin Huish, Butch Johnson, Rod White? And ESPECIALLY on the women's side. Such experience and talent completely ignored while people who sat thru seminars but never shot recurve nationally become level 4 national coaches implimenting Lee's program and instructing our best and brightest. 


Chris


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## olympics84 (Nov 5, 2004)

chrstphr said:


> I have said this for years. We are the only country to NOT use our previous champions in our OTC program.
> 
> Where is Rick McKinney, Darrell Pace, John Williams, Justin Huish, Butch Johnson, Rod White? And ESPECIALLY on the women's side. Such experience and talent completely ignored while people who sat thru seminars but never shot recurve nationally become level 4 national coaches implimenting Lee's program and instructing our best and brightest.
> 
> ...


I couldn't agree more.


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## Draven Olary (Jun 12, 2016)

limbwalker said:


> Draven Olary said:
> 
> 
> > I think this is always the case in sports that don’t follow a “lineage”. The exchange is always there, and a Coach can twist things based on his best student. If he is open-minded.
> ...


Possible, hardly the norm. I am talking about guys who practiced the art and teach, not just became coaches in class only. But this can be another can of warms. If the student is reaching a level the Coach never reached who’s “fault” is? It’s complicated, because most of the time it is a team effort - coach and archer. I was talking with one of my Sensei a couple of years ago and he told me that even at 7dan he is still learning. The more he is practicing and teaches the more subtle things reveal themselves with the help of his students also. That type of credit you are talking about most of the time is something given by outsiders.


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## jmvargas (Oct 21, 2004)

in golf even Tiger Woods has acknowledged he is still discovering and learning things to improve his game..

....archery--just like golf--is based on "the art of repetition" and there are many ways to develop a repeating golf swing..and I'm presuming it's the same in archery..

as long as your form provides consistent and satisfactory results it's considered good..

the problem is that the elites sometimes strive for too much perfection and that's when the problem begins..


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## jmvargas (Oct 21, 2004)

jmvargas said:


> in golf even Tiger Woods has acknowledged he is still discovering and learning things to improve his game..
> 
> ....archery--just like golf--is based on "the art of repetition" and there are many ways to develop a repeating golf swing..and I'm presuming it's the same in archery..
> 
> ...


...in addition to the above, Tiger has also undergone a number of coaches throughout his career but has always relied on his own ability when push comes to shove....and he also has cherry-picked the best of what the past coaches offered when applicable..

Tiger is admittedly "better than most" and a cut above all during his prime but in the end the coaches were only able to do so much....HE did the rest.

and I believe much of the same applies to the non-Korean archery elites right now specially Brady who has been there the longest aside from the Koreans..


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## Vittorio (Jul 17, 2003)

Just to mention, in Madrid YWC Korea has won all 6 Gold Medal finals for recurve teams, and 1 Gold and 4 Bronze finals for recurve individuals (all those available to them), for a total of 7 Golds and 4 bronze medals, Historycal rcord for them.
IN Buenos Aires in 2017 they "only" got 4 Golds , 3 Silver and 1 Bronze, but 1 gold only for team among them. So in 2 years they have passed from 1/6 to 6/6 for teams ....


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## jmvargas (Oct 21, 2004)

Vittorio said:


> Just to mention, in Madrid YWC Korea has won all 6 Gold Medal finals for recurve teams, and 1 Gold and 4 Bronze finals for recurve individuals (all those available to them), for a total of 7 Golds and 4 bronze medals, Historycal rcord for them.
> IN Buenos Aires in 2017 they "only" got 4 Golds , 3 Silver and 1 Bronze, but 1 gold only for team among them. So in 2 years they have passed from 1/6 to 6/6 for teams ....


...another excellent performance by Korea and thank you Vittorio!!

but really??---is anyone surprised??


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## ZephrusPrime (Dec 2, 2012)

This is going to be an awesome 2020! I hope Woojin gets his but I also would like to see Brady get his Gold.


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## cruzern (Apr 21, 2011)

I read somewhere that An San and Lee Wo Seok is not going to the World Cup Final in Moscow because they are going to concentrate on "making the Korean Olympic team". Anyone here know if that qualifying tournament is already happening? How do we get updates on scores for that?


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## DarkMuppet (Oct 23, 2013)

cruzern said:


> I read somewhere that An San and Lee Wo Seok is not going to the World Cup Final in Moscow because they are going to concentrate on "making the Korean Olympic team". Anyone here know if that qualifying tournament is already happening? How do we get updates on scores for that?


Yes, it's all here. 
http://www.archery.or.kr/mobile/games/result/represent.do

And here... 

http://www.archery.or.kr/mobile/games/relay/compRelay.do

The Chrome browser should automatically translate it.

Currently Lee Woo Seok is in 11th place and Ansan is in 24th...

But true to Korean selection processes, there's a very long way to go yet.


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