# Official BARESHAFT tuning and tips thread



## Horns and Hides (Jun 24, 2013)

There seems to be quite a few threads on bareshaft tuning, all with great info from experienced tuners that are willing to share the facts and experiences related to this...Most topics are related to a specific bow and my bareshaft does "this" compared to my fletched arrow does "that". Has there been any threads that I havent seen that would cover the majority of scenarios one could see when trying this tuning method based on their bow/cam style? I have lots of links saved with particular scenarios for reference but think if something could be compiled into one spot this would be helpful to many myself included.

Assuming all of the following- draw length is correct, arrows are correct spine, no rest contact, proper grip etc etc, please chime in and share your expertise and experiences..Looking for all styles of cam systems with what to do's...Fletched are dead nuts but bareshaft hits 4 inches low nock high and left on a hybrid system, what are we looking to adjust and how? fletched are dead nuts but bare shafts hit 2 inches high nock tail down on a single cam, whats the next step? I know there are quite afew scenarios but wondering if there is a quick way sum up what to do to what when this does that!


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

Horns and Hides said:


> Assuming all of the following- draw length is correct, arrows are correct spine, no rest contact, proper grip etc etc, please chime in and share your expertise and experiences..Looking for all styles of cam systems with what to do's...
> 
> Fletched are dead nuts but
> bareshaft hits 4 inches low
> ...



1) sooo, did you follow the USUAL advice, and set your d-loop so that an arrow sits NOCK HIGH, when your front stabilizer is level?

So,
if you set your d-loop,
so that the TAIL END of your arrow, is NOCK high,
with the bow at rest...

and you fire an arrow with ZERO steering correction,
so...
now you find that with a d-loop set so the TAIL END of your arrow is NOCK HIGH (arrow is pointed DOWNHILL)

and 
you are surprised that a bareshaft, an arrow with ZERO steering correction,

FLYS DOWNHILL?


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

Horns and Hides said:


> Assuming all of the following- draw length is correct, arrows are correct spine, no rest contact, proper grip etc etc, please chime in and share your expertise and experiences..Looking for all styles of cam systems with what to do's...
> 
> Fletched are dead nuts but
> bareshaft hits 4 inches low
> ...


IF YOUR BOW looks like this....



then,
reset your d-loop so it looks MORE like THIS.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

With the d-loop set so your arrow is LEVEL,
and parallel to your front stabilizer,
so that the arrow is running 90 degrees to your WALL....

if your bareshaft still impacts POINT LOW....and NOCK HIGH...

then,
for a hybrid cam bow...



FIND the top end loop of the control cable.....

and make a half twist adjustment.

YOu have a 50/50 chance to guess the correct direction.

LET your BARESHAFT results,
GUIDE you for what to do,
to the TOP end loop of the control cable.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

Horns and Hides said:


> There seems to be quite a few threads on bareshaft tuning, all with great info from experienced tuners that are willing to share the facts and experiences related to this...Most topics are related to a specific bow and my bareshaft does "this" compared to my fletched arrow does "that". Has there been any threads that I havent seen that would cover the majority of scenarios one could see when trying this tuning method based on their bow/cam style? I have lots of links saved with particular scenarios for reference but think if something could be compiled into one spot this would be helpful to many myself included.
> 
> Assuming all of the following- draw length is correct, arrows are correct spine, no rest contact, proper grip etc etc, please chime in and share your expertise and experiences..Looking for all styles of cam systems with what to do's...Fletched are dead nuts but bareshaft hits 4 inches low nock high and left on a hybrid system, what are we looking to adjust and how? fletched are dead nuts but bare shafts hit 2 inches high nock tail down on a single cam, whats the next step? I know there are quite afew scenarios but wondering if there is a quick way sum up what to do to what when this does that!



WHen I was at the Columbus Ohio,
Bow Hunting Super Show...

I came up with a SHORT RANGE exercise.

1 yard duct tape shooting line.

duct tape is 1 yard away from the chest height target.

Piece of heavy paper attached to front of target.

USe a sharpie pen to make a cross hair aiming point.

Aim your top pin at the aiming point.
Fire a fletched arrow and you now pull out the fletched arrow.
YOU HAVE A FRESH HOLE.

BAck to the 1 YARD duct tape shooting line.

FIRE a bareshaft.
YOUR JOB is to STUFF the bareshaft into the SAME HOLE, you just made with the fletched arrow.

MOST folks can do this.


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## brdz71 (Aug 1, 2009)

Wouldnt you need to add some kind of weight like say elec tape or something in place of the missing fletchings. Because would the fletched arrow impact lower because its lets say 15 grains heavier


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

Horns and Hides said:


> There seems to be quite a few threads on bareshaft tuning, all with great info from experienced tuners that are willing to share the facts and experiences related to this...Most topics are related to a specific bow and my bareshaft does "this" compared to my fletched arrow does "that". Has there been any threads that I havent seen that would cover the majority of scenarios one could see when trying this tuning method based on their bow/cam style? I have lots of links saved with particular scenarios for reference but think if something could be compiled into one spot this would be helpful to many myself included.
> 
> Assuming all of the following- draw length is correct, arrows are correct spine, no rest contact, proper grip etc etc, please chime in and share your expertise and experiences..Looking for all styles of cam systems with what to do's...Fletched are dead nuts but bareshaft hits 4 inches low nock high and left on a hybrid system, what are we looking to adjust and how? fletched are dead nuts but bare shafts hit 2 inches high nock tail down on a single cam, whats the next step? I know there are quite afew scenarios but wondering if there is a quick way sum up what to do to what when this does that!


So,
work at 1 YARD
and stuff the single bareshaft into the SAME hole, from the fletched arrow hole,
say 30 shots.

Builds quality muscle memory.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

brdz71 said:


> Wouldnt you need to add some kind of weight like say elec tape or something in place of the missing fletchings. Because would the fletched arrow impact lower because its lets say 15 grains heavier


Nope.

Not at 1 YARD.
No need to make this complicated.

When I was at the Bow Hunting Super Show,
I would ask the fella,
did you bring a BARESHAFT?

he would say NOPE.

So,
I would say, NOW you have a BARESHAFT.

I take my knife
and I cut off the vertical steering surfaces,
and leave the base of the vane behind.

100% of all shooters were able to STUFF their NEW BARESHAFT
into the same hole,
at my 1 yard shooting line.

The WEIGHT of the vanes at the back end,
has ZERO effect on flight point of impact,
at 1 YaRD.

The REDUCTION in weight,
does not change flight trajectory at 1 YARD.

IN fact,
the rEDUCTION in weight,
changes the harmonics of the arrow tube
and actually makes the arrow tube BEHAVE weaker,
cuz the nodes have now changed...position.

So,
no need to get into subsonic aerodynamics,
cuz at 1 yard,
the effects are not measurable.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

Horns and Hides said:


> There seems to be quite a few threads on bareshaft tuning, all with great info from experienced tuners that are willing to share the facts and experiences related to this...Most topics are related to a specific bow and my bareshaft does "this" compared to my fletched arrow does "that". Has there been any threads that I havent seen that would cover the majority of scenarios one could see when trying this tuning method based on their bow/cam style? I have lots of links saved with particular scenarios for reference but think if something could be compiled into one spot this would be helpful to many myself included.
> 
> Assuming all of the following- draw length is correct, arrows are correct spine, no rest contact, proper grip etc etc, please chime in and share your expertise and experiences..Looking for all styles of cam systems with what to do's...Fletched are dead nuts but bareshaft hits 4 inches low nock high and left on a hybrid system, what are we looking to adjust and how? fletched are dead nuts but bare shafts hit 2 inches high nock tail down on a single cam, whats the next step? I know there are quite afew scenarios but wondering if there is a quick way sum up what to do to what when this does that!



Sooo,
when stuffing a bareshaft into the SAME hole as the FLETCHED ARROW hole
gets boring for you at 1 YARD...

then,
goto 4 yards.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

Horns and Hides said:


> There seems to be quite a few threads on bareshaft tuning, all with great info from experienced tuners that are willing to share the facts and experiences related to this...Most topics are related to a specific bow and my bareshaft does "this" compared to my fletched arrow does "that". Has there been any threads that I havent seen that would cover the majority of scenarios one could see when trying this tuning method based on their bow/cam style? I have lots of links saved with particular scenarios for reference but think if something could be compiled into one spot this would be helpful to many myself included.
> 
> Assuming all of the following- draw length is correct, arrows are correct spine, no rest contact, proper grip etc etc, please chime in and share your expertise and experiences..Looking for all styles of cam systems with what to do's...Fletched are dead nuts but bareshaft hits 4 inches low nock high and left on a hybrid system, what are we looking to adjust and how? fletched are dead nuts but bare shafts hit 2 inches high nock tail down on a single cam, whats the next step? I know there are quite afew scenarios but wondering if there is a quick way sum up what to do to what when this does that!


At 4 yards,
you aim a FLETCHED arrow at the sharpie pen cross hair,
and make a NEW hole with your fletched arrow.

PULL the fletched arrow.

Mark the NEW 4 yard fletched arrow hole
with a double line mark, with your sharpie pen.

Now,
fire a bareshaft.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

Horns and Hides said:


> There seems to be quite a few threads on bareshaft tuning, all with great info from experienced tuners that are willing to share the facts and experiences related to this...Most topics are related to a specific bow and my bareshaft does "this" compared to my fletched arrow does "that". Has there been any threads that I havent seen that would cover the majority of scenarios one could see when trying this tuning method based on their bow/cam style? I have lots of links saved with particular scenarios for reference but think if something could be compiled into one spot this would be helpful to many myself included.
> 
> Assuming all of the following- draw length is correct, arrows are correct spine, no rest contact, proper grip etc etc, please chime in and share your expertise and experiences..Looking for all styles of cam systems with what to do's...Fletched are dead nuts but bareshaft hits 4 inches low nock high and left on a hybrid system, what are we looking to adjust and how? fletched are dead nuts but bare shafts hit 2 inches high nock tail down on a single cam, whats the next step? I know there are quite afew scenarios but wondering if there is a quick way sum up what to do to what when this does that!


IF you moved your d-loop to LEVEL,
with your arrow rest in the FULL up position...

and at 4 YARDS,
your bareshaft is missing 12-o'clock HIGH
or
your bareshaft is missing 6-o'clock LOW...

work the TOP end loop of the control cable.



Try a half twist adjustment.

You have a 50/50 chance to get it correct.

Won't take much adjustment
before you begin to STUFF a bareshaft into the SAME hole as the FLETCHED arrow hole....
from a 4 yard shooting line.


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## Jon Clayton (Mar 4, 2012)

I'm all ears... I mean EYES...


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

Horns and Hides said:


> There seems to be quite a few threads on bareshaft tuning, all with great info from experienced tuners that are willing to share the facts and experiences related to this...Most topics are related to a specific bow and my bareshaft does "this" compared to my fletched arrow does "that". Has there been any threads that I havent seen that would cover the majority of scenarios one could see when trying this tuning method based on their bow/cam style? I have lots of links saved with particular scenarios for reference but think if something could be compiled into one spot this would be helpful to many myself included.
> 
> Assuming all of the following- draw length is correct, arrows are correct spine, no rest contact, proper grip etc etc, please chime in and share your expertise and experiences..Looking for all styles of cam systems with what to do's...Fletched are dead nuts but bareshaft hits 4 inches low nock high and left on a hybrid system, what are we looking to adjust and how? fletched are dead nuts but bare shafts hit 2 inches high nock tail down on a single cam, whats the next step? I know there are quite afew scenarios but wondering if there is a quick way sum up what to do to what when this does that!


Sooo,
I have shooters at the Columbus Ohio Bow Hunting Super Show
drilling a tunnel in my BRAND NEW targets...

nailing a bareshaft into the SAME hole, at 4 yards,
again and again and again.

I told them to go ahead,
and do it.

Build shooter confidence.
Builds quality muscle memory.

So,
after drilling a tunnel completely through my brand new target,
(he spent hours...cuz he was having sooo much fun)...

when he went home,
with his NEW muscle memory...

he did THIS at 22 yards.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

Jon Clayton said:


> I'm all ears... I mean EYES...


Sooo,
I teach folks how to fish.

HYBRID CAM bow...

bareshafts are hitting LOW?

IS your d-loop set for a SKY HIGH nock?
Could be 1/16th inch SKY HIGH nock.
Could be 1/8th inch SKY HIGH nock.
Could be 3/32nds SKY HIGH NOCK.

If you set your nock SKY HIGH..any amount,
and
then you discover your bareshafts are hitting DOWN LOW...

are you REALLY surprised?



D-LOOP set for the NOCK above level.
So,
the fletched arrow is pointed DOWN HILL.

So,
you fire a bareshaft with ZERO steering correction,
and...

well....

the bareshaft flies DOWNHILL.

So,
your choice.



or



TRY both ways...

any amount NOCK HIGH for the d-loop
or
NOCK LEVEL for the d-loop
and see what gives YOU BETTER RESULTS.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

THEN,
after you decide WHERE you want your d-loop,
if you have a HYBRID CAM bow...

try my 1 arrow exercise,
and tweak the CONTROL CABLE.



TOP end loop only,
CONTROL CABLE

half twist adjustment

50/50 chance to get the direction correct.

Try my 1 YARD duct tape shooting school.
YOur mission...

stuff a bareshaft into the SAME hole.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

Then,
when you GRADUATE from 1 yard shooting school,
try 4 yards.

TWEAK the control cable,
with a half twist adjustment...

until you can STUFF a bareshaft
into the SAME hole,
you made in a fresh target,
with a fletched arrow...

aiming at a sharpie pen cross hair.

You get the idea.

This is part bow tuning
and MOSTLY training the shooter for consistent shooting posture
and consistent SHOT EXECUTION.

Try to STUFF the bareshaft into the SAME fletched arrow hole,
say 30 TIMES.

ONE bareshaft.
BAck and forth.
Fire arrow.
Pull arrow
Fire arrow.
Pull arrow.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

Horns and Hides said:


> fletched are dead nuts but
> bare shafts hit 2 inches high
> nock tail down on a single cam, whats the next step?


Work the bottom of the buss cable, for a single cam.
You have a TWO part rigging system.


a) bowstring...super duper LONG bowstring

2) buss cable.

So,
you are CHANGING the STARTING rotation position of the cam attached to the bottom axle.

When you find the SWEET SPOT...
either ADDING or REMOVING half twists....from the LONG CENTER LEG of the buss cable...

you will be able to STUFF a bareshaft into the same hole, as the fletched arrowo,
at 1 yard.

Now,
a SINGLE CAM is very picky about d-loop placement.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

Sooo,
NOW I gotta get kinda TECHY...
and get into the ENGINEERING of a single cam.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

Horns and Hides said:


> fletched are dead nuts but
> bare shafts hit 2 inches high
> nock tail down on a single cam, whats the next step?



So,
a bow,
ANY bow...

has a TOP HALF leaf spring suspension
and
has a BOTTOM HALF leaf spring suspension.

So,
when your bareshaft is hitting POINT HIGH
when your bareshaft is hitting NOCK LOW..

WHAT DOES THIS MEAN?

This means, your BOTTOM LIMB, the BOTTOM HALF of the bow is working OVERTIME.

This means, your TOP LIMB, the UPPER HALF of the bow is on VACATION....not working HARD enough.


So
WE MUST BALANCE the top half and the bottom half of the bow.

GOTTA get BOTH halves of the bow working TOGETHER...in the CORRECT AMOUNTS.


Sooo,
we do a ROUGH FIX FIRST.

We move the d-loop HIGHER UP THE BOWSTRING.

When we move the d-loop HIGHER UP THE BOWSTRING,
we LOAD the TOP AXLE,
we LOAD the UPPER LIMB HARDER...

and
we WORK the bottom limb LESS HARD.


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## Hidden Danger (Mar 13, 2008)

nuts&bolts said:


> Sooo,
> NOW I gotta get kinda TECHY...
> and get into the ENGINEERING of a single cam.


Been waiting for this one.


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## Horns and Hides (Jun 24, 2013)

Thanks Alan, I think guys will be getting some ink cartridges :wink:


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

So,
POINT of bareshaft hitting HIGH
TAIL of bareshaft hitting LOWER than the point...

MOVE the d-loop to a new position HIGHER and HIGHER up the bowstring,
and we CHANGE the FOCUS POINT of the pulling pressure

we CHANGE and SHIFT the balance of the work, MORE towards the UPPER LIMB,
when we move the d-loop HIGHER and HIGHER up the bowstring.

KEEP shifting the d-loop HIGHER and HIGHER on a single cam bow,
for CRUDE, ROUGH adjustment for bareshaft arrow flight.

If you are aiming at a shoulder height x-ring,
or sharpie pen cross hair say 4 YARDS AWAY...

then,
when you can STUFF the bareshaft into the SAME hole from the FLETCHED arrow...

when you MOVE the d-loop HIGH ENOUGH....


then,
goto 10 yards
and try again.

*At 10 yards,
aim at the Sharpie Pen Cross Hair
and fire the fletched arrow and make a FRESH HOLE.

Now,
fire a bareshaft.

If the bareshaft misses 12-o'clock high
or
if the bareshaft misses 6-o'clock LOW..

NOW,
we do the FINE TUNING
with the BOTTOM of the buss cable,
and try a HALF twist adjustment.*


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## War_Material (Jul 17, 2012)

Some great info on here for sure!


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

Horns and Hides said:


> Thanks Alan, I think guys will be getting some ink cartridges :wink:


I teach you how to fish.

Then,
you can tune ANYTHING.

Welcome.


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## Hidden Danger (Mar 13, 2008)

Horns and Hides said:


> Thanks Alan, I think guys will be getting some ink cartridges :wink:


and a little less sleep. lol


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## Horns and Hides (Jun 24, 2013)

LOL true but one more night and having answers is better than several nights laying around wondering about all of this..man i need help


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## Hidden Danger (Mar 13, 2008)

Horns and Hides said:


> LOL true but one more night and having answers is better than several nights laying around wondering about all of this..man i need help


True.


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## Btcook1 (Aug 31, 2012)

Yea, gonna have to bookmark this thread. I'll be coming back to it.


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## ilhunter997 (May 4, 2012)

Tag


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## War_Material (Jul 17, 2012)

The best thing about Allen's way is that you don't need much room to tune the bow to you. I loved it!


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## Kenro287 (Feb 12, 2014)

Great info


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## Irish Sitka (Jul 2, 2009)

Will be studying this as well.


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## Draw27 (Dec 7, 2010)

bump


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## crazy4hunting (Feb 4, 2006)

Starting it tomorrow


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## basnbuks (Jul 13, 2010)

nuts&bolts said:


> I teach you how to fish.
> 
> Then,
> you can tune ANYTHING.
> ...


What about a binary cam?


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## Bowtoons (Jan 4, 2008)

nuts&bolts said:


> I teach you how to fish.
> 
> Then,
> you can tune ANYTHING.
> ...


You can tune a bow, but ya can't tunafish. Lol


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

basnbuks said:


> What about a binary cam?


Had several folks come by at the Bow Hunting Super Show,
in Columbus OH, with binary, no yoke cable bows.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

basnbuks said:


> What about a binary cam?


duct tape shooting line,
1 yard away from the target, shoulder height.

Had the shooter fire a fletched arrow,
fresh sheet of paper in front of the target.

Hang up bow, and pull out fletched arrow.

You now have one hole in the target.

Now,
same aiming point, fire a bareshaft arrow.

Most folks, will be able to STUFF the bareshaft into the same hole, from the fletched arrow.

Repeat 30 times, to build muscle memory.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

basnbuks said:


> What about a binary cam?


Sooo,
when it gets boring to stuff a bareshaft into the fletched arrow hole,
shooting from the 1 yard duct tape shooting line...

then try at 4 yards.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

basnbuks said:


> What about a binary cam?


Soo,
duct tape shooting line 4 yards away from the target.

You fire a fletched arrow and make a new hole,
aiming at the sharpie pen cross hair on the fresh sheet of paper
or a bullseye target.

Now,
you pull out the fletched arrow,
and now you fire a bareshaft.

So,
the bareshaft misses 12-o'clock HIGH
or
the bareshaft misses 6-o'clock LOW.

So,
we goto the bow press
and
we find the top cam,
and we look for the control cable peg,
the peg closest to the edge of the cam.

Make a half twist adjustment,
to this ONE end loop.

LEAVe all other end loops for the control cables alone.

ONE end loop, ADD or REMOVE a half twist,
to UN SYNC the cams on PURPOSE...

until you can stuff a bareshaft into the same hole
as the FLETCHED arrow hole.





By tweaking ONE end loop,
for ONE of the control cables,
the end loop attached to the peg, on the top cam,
the peg closest to the OUTSIDE edge...

tweaking this ONE end loop,
will CHANGE your cam sync,
will UN-SYNC your bow, ON PURPOSE,
until you get to the point,
where the bareshaft no longer misses HIGH-LOW
and
now the bareshaft is STUFFED into the same hole,
as the fletched arrow hole,
when you shoot at 4 yards.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

Repeat with the bareshaft,
fire the bareshaft,
pull the bareshaft,
fire the bareshaft,
pull the bareshaft.


STUFF the bareshaft into the same fletched arrow hole,
at least 30 times,
to build muscle memory, to build shot execution consistency.

You can ONLY bareshaft train at YOUR skill level.

So,
when you MASTER shooting a bareshaft into the same hole,
30 times or more, at 4 yards...

then,
work up to 6 yards.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

Had one fella at the Columbus Bowhunting Super Show...

he liked this 4 yard training sooo much, I challenged him to drill a tunnel through my brand new target,
until he drilled completely through the target...18-inches thick,
until he could nail the plywood behind the target.

He did.


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## basnbuks (Jul 13, 2010)

nuts&bolts said:


> Soo,
> duct tape shooting line 4 yards away from the target.
> 
> You fire a fletched arrow and make a new hole,
> ...


Soooo: when i "un synch" my cams do i go back and rest my draw stops to hit at the same time?


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## MDCII (Jan 25, 2014)

Interested!


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

basnbuks said:


> Soooo: when i "un synch" my cams do i go back and rest my draw stops to hit at the same time?


UN-SYNC means the cams do NOT hit at the same time.
UN-SYNC means the stops do NOT hit at the same time.

UN-SYNC means to have ONE cam hit FIRST.


Sooo,
when you have the bareshaft STUFFING into the same hole, as the fletched,
when you have UN-SYNC the cam so you get THIS RESULT....

goto the draw board,
and slowly crank the binary cam bow to full draw,
until ONE draw stop hits the limb.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

basnbuks said:


> Soooo: when i "un synch" my cams do i go back and rest my draw stops to hit at the same time?


UN-SYNC means the cams do NOT hit at the same time.
UN-SYNC means the stops do NOT hit at the same time.

UN-SYNC means to have ONE cam hit FIRST.


Sooo,
when you have the bareshaft STUFFING into the same hole, as the fletched,
when you have UN-SYNC the cam so you get THIS RESULT....

goto the draw board,
and slowly crank the binary cam bow to full draw,
until ONE draw stop hits the limb.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

Use a turnbuckle on the draw board, to sneak up on full draw,
until ONE draw stop touches the limb.

Now,
while on the draw board,
then,
loosen the draw stop that is NOT touching the limb..

and manually move the 2nd draw stop,
so the 2nd draw stop now DOES touch the other limb....

while your cams are OUT OF SYNC,
on purpose.

Now,
you have two limb stops in contact,
with the CAMS OUT OF SYNC....

such that you can stuff a bareshaft into the same fletched arrow hole.

RESULTS based tuning.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

of course,
this assumes you have two limb stops,
in a slot on your cams.


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## Windowlicker (Oct 10, 2013)

Thanks for sharing you knowlage and info. Going to give it a try.


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## Hidden Danger (Mar 13, 2008)

I just realized that binary cam systems are not for me.


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## Mahly (Dec 18, 2002)

Personally, I get my best results on my binary cam bow by keeping the cams in synch, and then making adjustments to the rest and/or D loop.


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## kowboy17 (Nov 24, 2013)

Alan,
I thought you've said in earlier posts to NEVER change the D-Loop once you have it set? So….do all of you're tweaking via the cables etc? I'm confused. Also, is an Overdrive Binary different tuning to an binary? thanks


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## crazy4hunting (Feb 4, 2006)

kowboy17 said:


> Alan,
> I thought you've said in earlier posts to NEVER change the D-Loop once you have it set? So….do all of you're tweaking via the cables etc? I'm confused. Also, is an Overdrive Binary different tuning to an binary? thanks


You can also yoke tune with the od system. Plus, the od is more of a dual cam bow, not binary. Binary are slaved together, the od is connected to a cam, and a yoke on the axle on opposing limb.


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## Govtrapper (Mar 24, 2012)

Thank y'all for all this info. I just had new string install an used nuts an bolts direction an got my bare shaft hitting the same hole as my fletched one at 1 yard. Got dark on me thank you so much


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

kowboy17 said:


> Alan,
> I thought you've said in earlier posts to NEVER change the D-Loop once you have it set? So….do all of you're tweaking via the cables etc? I'm confused. Also, is an Overdrive Binary different tuning to an binary? thanks


always several ways to do things.

Mahly likes to move the d-loop up or down the string, and leave cables set for even cam sync.

Well,
you can tweak the cables to tweak cam sync, to take the cams OUT OF SYNC, on purpose.

Well,
if you move the d-loop up or down the bowstring, you are changing the cam sync.

So,
your choice.

Pick Door #1 or Door #2 or Door #3.

I say if you have a hybrid cam bow or a binary cam bow (no yoke cables) work the cam sync with your cables,
and leave the d-loop alone.

Does moving the d-loop change cam sync? Yes.
Does twisting or untwisting one end of one cable, change cam sync? Yes.

So,
do you have a single cam bow,
that is giving you ALL KINDS of trouble,
with NOCK HIGH bareshafts
or
with NOCK LOW bareshafts?

For a single cam,
work the d-loop,
cuz SOME single cam bows, have a GREAT deal of difficulty with level nock travel,
so you MIGHT need medium to LARGE adjustments to balance the LOADING for the upper and lower axles.

So,
when you MOVE the d-loop up or down the center serving
on a single cam bow...
when your front stabilizer is LEVEL, and you want a bareshaft to also fly LEVEL...

you might get the BEST results, working the d-loop up or down the bowstring,
to balance the loading on the top and bottom axles,
to get LEVEL nock travel.

There are ALWAYS more than one way to get to the end goal.

you can take door #1.
you can take door #2.
you can take door #3.


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## [email protected] (Feb 17, 2013)

hidden danger said:


> I just realized that binary cam systems are not for me.



Aww come on were just getting started.

I'm a beginner when it come to tuning. After doing some kitchen sink tuning on a 15 year old compound bow I was able to replace several nocks after a dozen shots at 20 yards. My better groups were three fletched and a bareshaft just about touching at 30.

Dude knows his stuff. I am by no means saying I can offer professional advice, but I've learned a few things lately


Let's say you get a nock high bareshaft. This could be any number of things besides just being nocked to high on the bowstring. It could be because the cams are out of sync. Could be your grip too, believe it or not. Fire a bareshaft with a high wrist and the same bare shaft with a low wrist.
Could also be the shaft. To test that for yourself just rotate the nocks a little. Even from a well tuned bow I bet you see that shaft take a walk all over the target.

Could it be from nock pinch or nock fit? Might be from dirty grime in your cam tracks.

I had a bareshaft flying nearly perfect once and by accident got the shaft nocked upside down. It landed sideways enough that it broke the shaft!

What if the bozo that served your string used more tent ion on his serving jig on one end of your bow string than the other? 


I begin sitting up a bow just like Alan says and the first thing I do if creep tune and get it as close as I can. Then if my bare shaft nock is high or low I adjust my nock slightly. 

I use my limb bolts because it doesn't throw my can sync off as much as moving the d loop up or down.

Then once I get close with my bareshaft tune I will double check my creep tune. If both are good I've rotated my nock on my bareshaft and watch how the tear changes through paper at around 20 feet. If it rotated over to a one inch right tear and back to a bullet hole I believe my bow to be kicking nock right. Just my own opinion on a lot of this stuff.

After all my tinkering and I don't see it getting better I strip all the vanes off of the five worse out of six arrows that I've patterned.

Get you a big target face and number your arrows. Now put a series of dots on your target and shoot each fletched arrow 12-15 times at its own dot.

What you should notice is at least one arrow has a very good pattern, tighter than all the rest, and this arrow is the one I'm looking for. Its my new tuning tool.

I've been able to rotate the nocks on the rest of the arrows and get them in the same holes made from the one that groups the best.

Doesn't always work. I've had some success with it though. If it didn't work I've cut all the vanes off of a batch of brand new arrows and refletched them with six vanes cut down to about 1/3 the size of a blazer. Yeah, six fletch. Then rotate nocks attempt I g to group tune the whole batch without fear of fletching contact.

When this didn't work I've gone back to all bareshaft and rotate or or replace nocks attempting to get all the shafts touching at 20 yards. Even if they are all kicking left or right, as long as they are all doing the same thing, you can straighten it out.

Look for bent inserts too because having weight to one side of the shaft and it will be hard to get it right.. trust me because I know.

Don't let anyone tell you that drawlength doesn't matter.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

[email protected] said:


> Aww come on were just getting started.
> 
> I'm a beginner when it come to tuning. After doing some kitchen sink tuning on a 15 year old compound bow I was able to replace several nocks after a dozen shots at 20 yards. My better groups were three fletched and a bareshaft just about touching at 30.
> 
> ...



EXCELLENT. You have learned VERY VERY well.

I agree,
moving a d-loop is a pain in the rear.

My Apex 7 is a good bow,
but a real pain.

Very sensitive to cam rotation position.
The Apex 7 has two dimples for reference cam starting rotation position.

So,
after a LOT of experimenting, when the two dimples form an imaginary line,
dead parallel to the bowstring, gets me the BEST results....

IF,
and ONLY IF...

I balance the load on the top and bottom axles,
by doing what [email protected] does...

I balance the top and bottom axle loading,
with ONE of the limb bolts.

I have to remove 1 turn off one of the limb bolts,
to get the TOP half and the BOTTOM half of the bow to behave,
to work together.


Sooo, move the d-loop UP the bowstring,
you make the top limb work harder.

Sooo,
you weaken the bottom limb bolt,
then, the top limb does MORE work.

So,
I get the best results,
with my Apex 7, by weakening ONE limb bolt a FULL turn,
to get dead level nock travel.


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## [email protected] (Feb 17, 2013)

Alan I am completely sold on your methods of set up and tuning. I shot a group of about three inches a little while ago. From either 90 or 100 yards in 10-12 miles of wind. I was shooting pretty good so I thought I'd video a few groups. I shot a seven inch group, then two five inch groups and then one about 3 & 1/4".

Now I know this was a sort of dumb luck and me being focused, on top of shooting pretty well that day. But you can't do four groups all half the size of a pie plate from a football field away with a bow that is not tuned.
Maybe if you're a world class archer you can but I'm a beginner just scratching the surface. I will continue to look at it this was so I stay open minded and continue to learn. Once you know it all, you cease to learn.

Just so happens my uncle and cousin have taken up compound bows. They bumped I to my YouTube video and were surprised a bow could shoot so well. Got a phone call asking what I did to set up my bow and after ten or so calls and emails and a few AT members also asking how to set up a bow like I did I decided to make a series of youtube videos.

After all, when you look on YouTube for how to tune a bow, you get a million videos, yet nothing very descriptive, and no step by step documentary. 

Anyway, my cousin went and ordered the same bow with the same sight and rest and arrows and release..lol. he wants it bad.

So my process was to use a draw board to pull the bow down from some 16 penny nails and 3&1/2 inch gold screws run through a header in an arch way in the center of my house. I use nylon straps as a poor boy bow press that loop through my limbs and back over their selves. So I've got two loops locked in just in front of my cams and another length ran around the loops and tied down with enough length that the bow is pressed and hanging, but just enough to pull a loop off and add twist or whatever.

I've got another loop tied to the grip and adjusted to run around the heal of my boot and use my foot as a lever. When I'm standing flat footed, the bow is drawn all the way, as I pick up my heal a little, the stops come off the cables.

What I'm doing hear with this idea is looking for the cams to touch evenly and see if the gap grows evenly as I raise my foot. If I need to make an adjutment I simply let the bow up slowly and its already pressed. No, 'let's put er in the draw board and if something's not right, go to the bow press'
My idea has me at full draw, if I want a twist in a cable, I can let down, twist and be back at full draw in 15 seconds guys. Call genius book of world records.

OK, stops touching evenly, next step is come to full draw and remove cam lean.
My idea is slightly changed from Nuts&Bolts. I hit full draw and pinch an arrow on both cams but aim them at one another. When I first learned of setting them straight, I had no pictures and this is what I had imagined in my mind. Works very well.

Cams touching evenly and cams laying flat. Might spend a little time on this guys, I've had amazing results.

Step three, optional of course but I've built a draw board with the flange and half inch pipe idea here from Alan. I secure it down and between 20-25 feet behind the bow I mount a pulley. I've used this idea and it works for me.

So I run a length of para cord from my d loop (set level) through the pulley 20+ feet away and run the cord back to myself at the bow. I bring it to full draw and mark where the center of my loop is at, and bolt the riser down.

Two things have happened here, I've set my mark where the nock is at full draw and I've allowed the riser to pivot to full draw, before locking it down. Then I let down to where I'm about a 1/4" from being completely at rest and make a second mark.

Here's the fun part! ;-)

What I do is use a straight edge and draw a line between the marks where my nock is at rest and full draw and use this as a reference line. I draw the bow and stand directly over it as I let down slowly. What I'm looking for is if the dloop tracks a straight line, and if it follows that straight line or not. With 20+ feet of rope this is sensitive and if one can rolls over even slightly you'll see it in one try.

Time to set arrow center shot. Simple as day, 2 arrow trick. Nuts&bolts has posted hundreds of pictures and this one works very sell for me. I can see it not working well if you've got excessive pull on your cables but PSE said to position it at 2 o'clock on a right band rally so I did and haven't moved it.

Ok , from this point, The next thing I do is hang a bowstring from my target, and hit the string. I've found i can split that bowstri g from six feet but Ive discovered something almost as good. Say you're touching the string and its right one time and left the next.. pull your arrows out and see if the string devices the hole evenly. Once you get a few holes where you can't tell which side of the string has a larger portion of the arrows hole on which side, consider your sights set on that string.

The next thing I did was fire a bareshaft and it too had the hole evenly split with the string after pulling the arrow out. I was stoked from the get go.

OK, now is where I stepped outside the box for a second and went straight to 20 yards and shot fletched arrows at a horizontal line. Three normal, three harder.
My pulled harder shots went low and to fix this I added twist into the top Y cable.

Actually, I didn't want to run back and fourth to my draw/press so I tied about half a dozen wraps of 1/32" nylon string around my yoke legs where the legs meet the cable serving. This is a great way to get an immediate idea of what adjustments you will have to make with the bow press. 

My creep tune wasn't far off at all, but I did have to slide the nylon 'BULB' as I call it, up a little on my top Y. What that does is pinch them together above the serving a little bit, actually shortening that cable.
I realize guys that doing this will change your nock left and nock left with a bareshaft slightly. This is because you're slightly changing your cams angle, or cam lean. But I'm not bareshaft tuning yet, I'm attempting to get those cams rolling over as close to perfect as my limited ability will allow. The reasoning behind me saying it will change your cam lean is because the Y leg on one side will almost always have more twist in it than the other.

Once I got the cams perfect, I looked at my bow and my nylon 'bulb' was slid upwards on my top Y, indicating I needed to press the bow and put half a twist or so in one of my top yokes to microscopically shorten that cable. But what side?? I thought, surely I will make a slight change in it when I bareshaft tune to 20.. Wrong! Bareshaft tuned in less than four shots Buddy! At the end of this post I will be posting a few YouTube links for you guys.

After my initial set up, 2 arrow trick (actually used a caliper to make sure the arrows were perfectly parallel) I have not moved my arrow rest at all guys. I set my sights on a hanging string and left it alone. I did, however dial In two clicks on my Optimizer sight, which makes apx. 1/4" at 20 yards.

Initial set up was perfect except for my creep tune because I added a half a twist in the main body of my cable that runs to the bottom can and still slid my nylon bulb up around 1/2" changing my top Y from a 9" yoke to an 8.5" yoke. The reason for this in my opinion is because I hold with a little lower grip than my draw board does. Most people might not think this names any difference but I'm here to tell you It does for me.

After my creep tune was all dialed in as well as I could get it, I was puzzled why I had to make any adjustments at all so I tried something else. I hung it from the D loop again and pulled it down again, but this time I held the bow with my grip hand setting in the grip and found the stops to be touching exactly. If I just pulled the bow down as I had originally, I saw a space on the bottom cam.

Something else I've noticed is at full draw, If I look at both my cables, where they run through the cable slide, and pull hard into the wall... as I let back down again to normal pulling pressure, both cables move almost exactly the same amount and at the same time. Back wall is solid as I've ever felt it to be.

I tame away from this, a few things. One of them is, I've found the reason why a lot of guys say to set the top stop touching and a gap on bottom. This I believe to be for the difference in what that bow does in a draw board and what it does in your hand.


Its a fair note to say I didn't have the third axis bracket for my sight. While the optimizer is a great bang for the buck, there's no way to guarantee it will actually be plum, level and true when you bolt it on. And that's with just about any sight you're gonna find.
I knew it wasn't perfect out of the package so I leveled it nearly perfect before I shot the first arrow.

Let me explain something. A level showing you a bubble exactly between the lines doesn't mean squat to me fellas. Unless it is a bubble I see on a compound bow. Then It means something. It means you better have that puppy set right.

So, take a four foot carpenter level and set it on your countertop. See if the bubble reads perfectly level.

Let's say it shows you to be as level as the Great pyramid of Egypt (less than 1/4" over a 14 acre square, or over a span of 477'3")
So its perfect? If not, use some paper shims on the low side until you simply can not improve how perfectly level this bubble is reading.... now switch ends of the level. If its. of still 'perfect' then your bubble in that level is not perfect and your countertop is not perfectly level as well.

A level can be flawed dude, easy peasy for you to find the same results. But a plumb Bob is going to read true every time unless you got some wind on your line.

So, I found a perfectly level door (not door jam). I stapled a seven foot peice of bowstring to the top of this door and taped a pill bottle to the top of the door and let the bowstring run over the pill bottle to allow the line to stand off the door. Tied a nut for a weight on the end of the string and allowed it to stop swinging.

When it stopped swinging, I measured from the door to the string on top and bottom. If there happened to be a few thousands of an inch difference from top measurement and bottom, I couldn't tell. Also I wouldn't be able to tell you which side (over the 80" span) had a smaller measurement. After you build some custom cabinets for a millionaire, you'll appreciate a 1/64" when you sand thirty liner feet of hardwood. 

So, anymore, when I set up a bow, its no different. I used the door and paper shims to set my bubble up at FULL DRAW by holding the limb pockets lightly against the door.

Then I hung a line and shot a fletched arrow at that string again with my pin set in its highest position. Arrow hole centered perfectly behind that line after I pulled it from the target. Repeated the process with my single pin slider set at its lowest position and arrow was again, centered on that line. I gave it my heart and soul dude, I want my stuff perfect.

Did you catch that last part? If so, you realize I was checking to see if my pin tracked perfectly downwards... not just downwards and slightly to one side. .001" is to much play because a thousand inches is less than 30 yards. My highest setting on my sight starts at apx. 38 yards. I did this for the range. I love being stupid and shooting to 120-150 yards. Its just a beautiful thing to watch an arrow fall, so I watch it longer 

After my sight is pyramid level, and my creep tune has most of my arrows landing in a 1/4" strip of tape @20 yards, I throw a bare shaft. If its nock high of low I fine tune that with my limb bolts to see level BS flight by eye. The reason I creep tune first is because if its say, nock high... and I've eliminated the chance of my cams being out of synchronization and now I k ow I truly am nocked high. Right? 

The reason I use my limb bolts to fine tune my nock height is because if you move the d loop, you change can sync. You have to move your peep now, and after you move your peep you gotta twist of untwist the bowstring to get your peep landing straight again. So I'm lazy, use my limb bolts save a few steps.

Don't get me wrong, tillering your limbs will probably alter your cam sync too, because it changes how the bow holds in your hand and I already know your grip pressure differences will indeed change your synchronization. Maybe just slightly.

I mentioned I shot some YouTube videos for my cousin and uncle. After the near perfect set up and initial sighting in on a string from six feet, I creep tuned it.
Here is the results


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8UjQ66l1t5Q&feature=youtube_gdata_player


I mentioned I bareshaft tuned it AFTER I did a creep tune... here are the results for that
Used no adjustments except limb bolts, ended up something like 3/8 of a turn difference.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j2leY-l5wGk&feature=youtube_gdata_player


I also gave three shots at a bowstring (ten thousands of an inch thick) at 20 yards and split it on the third try after nuts and Bolts tuning. Got it on video as well.

You're talking about an Archer who's only been shooting for two years and only taken it serious for a few months... with a 'kids bow'

As Ive also mentioned, I've learned this stuff from Nuts&Bolts. It might not work for you but it DOES wonders for me!!

Cheers fellas.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

[email protected]

WHERE WERE YOU, when I was working on nuclear and natural gas power plants?

WHERE WERE YOU, when I was building multi-million dollar systems for folks like NASA and LAX international airport.

I always said, with the right team, I could build anything.

You remind me of my head technician. He was my best engineer, even though he didn't have an engineering degree.
This guy was soooo smart, he actually holds a patent for a secondary wastewater treatment digester...something he came up with while on a project for a marine base.

He also was a specialist at coming up with out-of-the-box solutions.


I like your DIY solutions. I do the same, and improvise using available materials.
You have a TRUE understanding of my methods, and have improvised the CONCEPTS.

OUTSTANDING work.
RESULTS based tuning at it's FINEST.


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## Daniel75 (Jul 11, 2010)

Marked


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## [email protected] (Feb 17, 2013)

Went a little crazy there huh..lol. The cams are sensitive on this bow I've been playing with.. seriously, A half twist in a yoke leg messes up the sync a noticeable amount. Either, its sensitive or I've become a good enough shot lately to notice the small changes.

Anyway, I like my QAD drop away rest. But I've wondered if the tention on my downward cable is messing with my synchronization so I thought I'd try something.

I was thinking I should modify my rest to tie into both cables with say, a football clamp on both the downward and upward cable and modify the thing to work off of the two football clamps in conjunction. 
Think of the break cable on the handle of a ten speed bike. Its got a small metal cable running through a plastic tube and works by shortening the cable inside of the tube.

I was thinking of trying this idea so my drop away works off both cables and wouldn't mess with my synchronization at all. This should balance out and put an even amount of pressure on both cables, eliminating the change of cam synchronization issues and if I played my cards right, the only I'll effect would be a slightly less let off.

As far as the speed at which it dropped, that is something else. I suppose that could be controlled a bit with a spring in the cable idea, to help control when it started dropping through the shot.

Another idea I had was to tie your d loop knot on top the same except tie the bottom knot upside down. As you follow the loop into the knot on the bottom, the first wrap runs to the lower half of the knot. Hard to explain, but this leaves the release jaws centered behind the nock at full draw, without tied in nock sets of unequal size. As far as arrow flight, it doesn't seem to be something I can prove, but I think it helps.
Having your release behind your arrow evenly would help prevent putting excessive downwards pressure, which might help when tuning a blade rest.

Something else I've come up with is an idea for pulling your knots tight when you've finished up a length of serving, what I do is back serve 8-10 wraps and as I pull the knot tight, I'll tie a knot in the serving thread and pull until it breaks at the knot.

When you tie a knot in string, it cuts the tensile strength almost in half and will break at the knot. Good info to know if you want it tight enough, but not to tight.

I've got several thousand shots on the last set of strings I made, and after a little wax, they look brand new.


So, this string was just a tune string.. something to use to tune the bow. Now I want to build a other set, maybe black and red, but the catch is, I want both colors in each yoke leg and for them to have the same visual number of twist, and for each yoke leg to also be the correct length for the tune. Hard to do with your average string jig I bet.

So, new jig should have two posts locked to an arm that pivots in the center so each yoke leg balances out. Sorda Thought this would end up with one peg of the yoke post shorter, by a shade, and that's the idea.

But lately a few guys have told me I should be investing in the best equipment money can buy, so today I am starting a bow fund for a new bow.

Alan, what I see in your tuning methods are three things that stand out.
1: let the bow tell you what it wants, and let the results guide you.
2: don't be afraid to experiment.
Lastly: to focus and think.

I think I'm doing alright so far but still have a long ways to go


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## [email protected] (Feb 17, 2013)

Anyone else care to chime in with your opinions? Honestly, what I said is true. I'm a new guy and want to learn as much as you guys. Actually I'll venture out on a skinny little limb and say I probably want it more than a lot.

You hear it all the time, 'leave well enough alone'

I could have done that with paper plate accuracy at 55 yards but I didn't and now I can shoot a lot better. I've also learned a little about working on my own bows and enjoy it very much. If my opinions are wrong, let me know.


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## horsetooth (Jul 9, 2012)

[email protected] said:


> Anyone else care to chime in with your opinions? Honestly, what I said is true. I'm a new guy and want to learn as much as you guys. Actually I'll venture out on a skinny little limb and say I probably want it more than a lot.
> 
> You hear it all the time, 'leave well enough alone'
> 
> I could have done that with paper plate accuracy at 55 yards but I didn't and now I can shoot a lot better. I've also learned a little about working on my own bows and enjoy it very much. If my opinions are wrong, let me know.


I tie my d-loop like you have described. I think it keeps things more in line at full draw as well.

I am so glad I ran across this thread! I have been fine tuning a new set of strings lately. 
I reached a point where bare shafts at 30 yrds were good with fletched with respect to windage, but I kept having up and down elevation issues. 
A half twist in control cable in either direction was too much. 
A half twist in buss cable was too much.

So I started trying to visualize what was happening with the shot. I took a 1/4 turn out of my top limb bolt to ease up the pull of the upper half of my bow.
Bingo! bare shafts hitting 1-2" high at 30 yds consistently.

I didn't want to change anything for a while, so I just shot the bow for a few days. I ended up removing a half twist from one of my upper buss legs, because I started noticing a left nock flight pattern.

Then I kept shooting for another day, even though I was noticing a vertical spread in my groups.

I should mention that at night I was checking things out in my basement.
Using N&B's method of firing fletched and bare shafts at a 1yrd target with a string.
Both bare and fletched splitting the string, regardless of the small changes I was making in the field.
The bow has been shooting bullet holes in paper as well, in spite of these small changes made in the field.
EVIDENCE that close range tuning methods can not reveal fine tuning issues that affect field range accuracy.

So today was a good day. No wind!

I was shooting at 25, 40 and 70 yards.
groups were 1.5-2" at 40 yards

bare shaft hitting within 1" of fletched, when I had a good release.
Im struggling with sight picture issues. My sight is maxed out in length, but my scope housing is not really visible through my peep. I only know im centered when I see the housing in my sight picture, indicating I'm off.
I need a new sight.

Anyway, at 70 yds I was seeing a little more vertical spread than I wanted. I experimented with 1/8 turns in top and bottom limb bolts.
I know at this point a twist in any cable is way too much adjustment.
Bare shaft at 70 yds was 6 inches high and 2 inches right.

I was too scared to loose an expensive bare shaft Injexion shooting at 70 yds.
So I went to 25 yds and adjusted my bottom limb bolt until I could see the bare shaft flying dead flat, and hitting the fletched shaft at 25 yds.

My arm was tired, but I finished the day grouping 6 fletched arrows in an 2" square piece of duct tape at 40 yards.

I'm getting there!

A very big thanks to Nut's & Bolts:clap2:
I have learned so much by following his methods. His understanding of bow dynamics is several orders of magnitude greater than anyone. 
A true master!! :hail:


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## tidy313 (Aug 15, 2010)

Tag


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## johncraddock445 (Aug 7, 2012)

Tag


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## flyfisher151 (Jan 4, 2008)

To all reading this LISTEN to what Nuts and Bolts says. It works flat out hands down.


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## horsetooth (Jul 9, 2012)

I guess I should have stated my set-up.

Hoyt Spyder Turbo
#3 RKT 3A mods
68lbs
Winners Choice Strings
Easton 330 Injexion carbon 28.25" 439.5gr
4" wraps, Blazer fletching
Easton 330 FMJ Deep Six 28.25" 463gr


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

horsetooth said:


> I guess I should have stated my set-up.
> 
> Hoyt Spyder Turbo
> #3 RKT 3A mods
> ...


NICE shooting.

Try stuffing a bareshaft,
into the same hole, made by a fletched arrow,
at say 6 yards.

When that gets boring,
then,
try 7 yards.

Fire a fletched arrow into a piece of paper,
sharpie pen, cross hair.

Then,
same aiming point,
fire a bareshaft and see if you can stuff the bareshaft into the same hole,
again and again and again.

This will fine tune your shot consistency...More of a form training exercise.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

horsetooth said:


> I guess I should have stated my set-up.
> 
> Hoyt Spyder Turbo
> #3 RKT 3A mods
> ...


Yup,
working the LIMB BOLTS is an EXCELLENT way to fine tune
the LOADING on the upper and lower limbs/axles.

*When I train at 100 yards (90 meters)*
you would be AMAZED at what a 1/16th turn on ONE of the limb bolts can do,
to your arrow groups.....

Sooo many ways, to tune for LEVEL nock travel..

which really means,
sooo many ways to TUNE for bALANCED loading on the top and bottom axles...

which really means,
sooo many ways to FINE TUNE the bow to be as FORGIVING as possible,
when trying to make your 100 yard (90 meter) fletched arrow groups as FLAT as possible....

or

when trying to make your 76.5 yard (70 meter) fletched arrow groups as FLAT as possible....

or

when trying to make your 54.6 yard (50 meter) fletched arrow groups as FLAT as possible....

or

when trying to make your 40 yard fletched arrow groups as FLAT as possible....

or

when trying to make your 30 yard fletched arrow groups as FLAT as possible.


At 30 yards and less,
all methods of FLATTENING arrow groups work just fine.


As you said,
at the LONGER ranges, 60 yrds, 70 yrds, 80 yrds, 90 yrds, 100 yrds...

then,
yup,
a twist in the cables maybe TOO MUCH adjustment, if your cables were built with a TIGHT twist ratio...

then,
using ONE LIMB BOLT,
to CHANGE the balance of the TOP limb loading to the BOTTOM LIMB loading...

is the ONLY tool, FINE enough...
unless you have a micro adjust arrow rest,
that will CLICK adjust in 2/1000ths...of an inch adjustment.

hehehehehehehehehe


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

horsetooth said:


> I guess I should have stated my set-up.
> 
> Hoyt Spyder Turbo
> #3 RKT 3A mods
> ...


Well Done.


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## horsetooth (Jul 9, 2012)

nuts&bolts said:


> NICE shooting.
> 
> Try stuffing a bareshaft,
> into the same hole, made by a fletched arrow,
> ...


I've been wanting to begin this exercise. I started, but my target is a bag target and the 3rd shot through the same hole punched all the way through and tagged the concrete stem wall behind. Ouch!

I need a new target. $$$$

Also I think my draw length could use some work. 
I want do enroll in your online coaching here shortly.
I'll send you a pm.


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## smithte426 (Feb 20, 2012)

tag


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## [email protected] (Feb 17, 2013)

I've wondered if adjusting the limb bolts is the best way to go for fine tuning nock height. It might slightly change my cam sync on my twin cam bows and might be akin to tiller tuning but I know when you move the loop, cam sync changes. If you move your loop, you gotta move your peep to keep the same anchor. Once you move your peep its not going to land straight at full draw (unless you use an alignment t tube peep) so now you have to twist or in twist your bowstring to get it straight again. Now that you twisted or untwisted your bowstring you have altered your timing.. whatever happened to 'just make one adjustment at a time'?

Lol, touching that loop is a no no for me any more! That's an hours work!

So, when I set the bow up (mine has fine limb bolts, can unscrew ten rounds!)
What I did was unscrew the bolts a full turn each and twisted the strings till I had my DL dialed in pretty close, cams standing flat at FD and stops touching evenly. Didn't care about data, but hitting peek weight with limb bolts one round out... that way I had some nock height adjustment.

Switched gears mentally from "if it does that, this is wrong, And I will do...this"
Went from that mentality to, let's set up the bow with micrometer detail, and see what happens. If it doesn't work like I believe it will, then I will try something else. If I got lost, back to the drawing board.

All I've ever had the privilege of shooting has been factory strings and entry level bows. The first bow I bareshaft tuned and yoked tuned was a 2000 bear whitetail.. the bow I was using when posted 'I am DONE bareshaft tuning compound bows'

That bow cost me 40 dollars and was never shot. It set in a mans house in Ohio for years with the factory tags still on the bow.

I think I've done a fine job of proving, its not what you got, its what you do with it.

I'm going to embarrass myself and record another video for you guys, to demonstrate how I built and use my 2 dollar bow press. Weights less than two ounces, I can put it in my pocket when I go to the field... if I get stuck, use it to tow my pickup out of the Mudd.

Maybe not that last part..lol. seriously, its not what you have or how much money you have, its what you got and you're imagination of how to use it.


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## [email protected] (Feb 17, 2013)

http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=2060738

My first tune, was pleased as they get. I know, I didn't land in the bullseye, I shot an arrow and tried to split it.


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## horsetooth (Jul 9, 2012)

[email protected] said:


> I've wondered if adjusting the limb bolts is the best way to go for fine tuning nock height. It might slightly change my cam sync on my twin cam bows and might be akin to tiller tuning but I know when you move the loop, cam sync changes. If you move your loop, you gotta move your peep to keep the same anchor. Once you move your peep its not going to land straight at full draw (unless you use an alignment t tube peep) so now you have to twist or in twist your bowstring to get it straight again. Now that you twisted or untwisted your bowstring you have altered your timing.. whatever happened to 'just make one adjustment at a time'?
> 
> Lol, touching that loop is a no no for me any more! That's an hours work!
> 
> ...


I wasn't sure if limb bolt adjustment was legitimate either. 

But I was in a bind because 1/2 twists in cables were too large of an adjustment. 
I did not want to move my d-loop

I thought about adjusting all the cables to get the load distribution different, since what we are really trying to do is maximize and synchronize the energy transfer from limb to arrow.
but what a headache

Adjusting the limb bolts has seemed to work for me

My only concern is the effects of this type of tweaking adjustment over time. Im thinking about the wear and tear on the limbs, strings, cams, etc.


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## [email protected] (Feb 17, 2013)

nuts&bolts said:


> Yup,
> working the LIMB BOLTS is an EXCELLENT way to fine tune
> the LOADING on the upper and lower limbs/axles.
> 
> ...





Make your groups flat as possible... you mean, like this??

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Ht0tVr55UU&feature=youtube_gdata_player


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## [email protected] (Feb 17, 2013)

horsetooth said:


> I wasn't sure if limb bolt adjustment was legitimate either.
> 
> But I was in a bind because 1/2 twists in cables were too large of an adjustment.
> I did not want to move my d-loop
> ...



Naa, I bet you're ok. If you got yokes, twist in the yokes will yield you a much smaller change.
Sorry, I'm not famiar with your bow set up.. binary cams?

Have you tried micro adjusting your rest up and down?


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## horsetooth (Jul 9, 2012)

nuts&bolts said:


> Well Done.


Thank you sir!
I owe it all to you :cheers:


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## horsetooth (Jul 9, 2012)

[email protected] said:


> Make your groups flat as possible... you mean, like this??
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Ht0tVr55UU&feature=youtube_gdata_player


Awesome!
Nice work in that West Texas wind!


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## horsetooth (Jul 9, 2012)

[email protected] said:


> Naa, I bet you're ok. If you got yokes, twist in the yokes will yield you a much smaller change.
> Sorry, I'm not famiar with your bow set up.. binary cams?
> 
> Have you tried micro adjusting your rest up and down?


Hybrid Hoyt RKT cams

I haven't messed with the rest. Rest and nock are level. Sticking to Nuts&Bolts principles.


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## [email protected] (Feb 17, 2013)

horsetooth said:


> Awesome!
> Nice work in that West Texas wind!


Sorta dumb luck but I was shooting pretty well that day for sure. Someone pointed out that I had walked 96 paces in the video. While he clearly can not count, it wasn't my usual 110-112 paces for 100 yards so I might have been confused and shot from my 90 mark. Who knows.. but even that size group at 40-50 is good.

I shot two five inch group before I turned the camera on.. no way is that group a normal group. But they are usually always flat like that, no matter the size of the group.. might be three inches tall and nine inches wide.

Might be from bow hand torque inconsistencies, but I've come up with a remedy. I've yet to prove it works but we shall see shortly


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## [email protected] (Feb 17, 2013)

Its a good idea to slightly adjust your rest a little up and down and side to side to see if your groups improve on average. If they do, re adjust your sights to where your new, better group lands.

Surely there is a point of deminished returns.. I haven't found it yet


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## Stinger85 (Apr 1, 2009)

Tagged


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## Horns and Hides (Jun 24, 2013)

hopefully I will have time to work on one of my newly strung rigs tomorrow and post some info on how it goes..Probably the Insanity!


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## Justin82 (Mar 12, 2009)

Subbed thanks


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## TheDuke4 (Oct 22, 2009)

Tagged


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## [email protected] (Feb 17, 2013)

Horns and Hides said:


> hopefully I will have time to work on one of my newly strung rigs tomorrow and post some info on how it goes..Probably the Insanity!


In an attempt to save you some trouble, you said new strings.. might give it about 75-100 shots before you take it serious to allow your strings to stretch and settle in. There's no better way to shoot in a set of strings that from five feet.
Get in front of a big target and aim center mass. Close your eyes and practice your imagination.

In my mind I imagine I've got a 200" plus muley in my line of sight. 81 yards. Long ways for a bow but I have been practicing for this shot all year! I *know* I can make a clean kill. I judge the wind, half cross wind from my right to left, half bead wind.
I set my sights for 83 yards.. aim six inches right and let her fly. The arrow is taking a million years to get there but I *k ow* he's mine!

Lol I'm playing man. Kinda. You know, the imagination is a powerful thing. Doing this from five feet you won't miss the target. You'll build skills feeling your release.

If we don't use our imagination, we grow as mindless as monkey's. Seriously. You should meet my brother in law


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## djw195 (Mar 26, 2012)

tagged


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## Glenn58 (Mar 25, 2013)

Came across this just in time!
New string set going on now that league finished last night. 
Like they say...timing is everything.
Thanks to all the contributors!!!!
This is going to be fun.


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## cdsamm (Jan 24, 2012)

Marked for later


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## Jhorne (Jul 15, 2003)

Bareshaft tearing nock high about 1" at 10 feet. Raising rest did not help. How should I adjust limb bolts?


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## IowaAssassin (Aug 1, 2011)

Sticky please!


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

Jhorne said:


> Bareshaft tearing nock high about 1" at 10 feet. Raising rest did not help. How should I adjust limb bolts?


1) what bow?

2) what arrow rest?

3) pic of your bow against a wall....with arrow rest arm in the FULL up position, so I can evaluate d-loop position.

Need photo like these.

Sooo, with arrow rest arm in the FULL up position,
is your d-loop SKY HIGH?




Soooo, with arrow rest arm in the FULL UP position,
is your d-loop set for a more LEVEL arrow?


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## johncraddock445 (Aug 7, 2012)

E35 70lb 28.5dl 
30x cut at 26" 100 grain... bareshafts are picking the nocks out of fletched arrows at 20 yards but at 30 yards they are missing about 18 inches to the right... great holes through paper with bareshaft and fletched... where do I go from here?


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

johncraddock445 said:


> E35 70lb 28.5dl
> 30x cut at 26" 100 grain... bareshafts are picking the nocks out of fletched arrows at 20 yards but at 30 yards they are missing about 18 inches to the right... great holes through paper with bareshaft and fletched... where do I go from here?


As the distance grows,
then, the control and skill required from the shooter gets harder and harder..
and
it is less a bow tuning issue.

So,
let's try working on your grip technique.

Strip of masking tape on the grip.
Draw a centerline all the way up to the shelf of the riser.

Now,
grip your bow normally,
and where you see the pen centerline on the masking tape,
make a matching mark on your bow hand.

So,
shoot a fletched, and at least TWO bareshafts at the fletched, 30 yards away.

So,
now play with bow hand position,
and MOVE the mark on your bow hand,
say 1/64th to the LEFT of the masking tape centerline
or
say 1/64th to the RIGHT of the masking tape centerline

and see what happens to the bareshaft point of impact.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

johncraddock445 said:


> E35 70lb 28.5dl
> 30x cut at 26" 100 grain... bareshafts are picking the nocks out of fletched arrows at 20 yards but at 30 yards they are missing about 18 inches to the right... great holes through paper with bareshaft and fletched... where do I go from here?


Was working with a fella at Lancaster Archery on Friday, day before the seminar.
I got there early.

So,
fella was having bareshafts missing about 6-inches RIGHT,
at 20 yards. Right handed shooter.

So,
he wanted to know what to do to his bow.
Binary cam bow, no yokes, if I remember correctly.

So,
we did NOTHING to the arrow rest.

So,
we did NOTHING to the yoke cables, cuz he has no yoke cables.

So,
WHAT did I have him do DIFFERENT?


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

I said, how long have you been leaning BACKWARDS.

LEANING BACKWARDS?

Am I leaning BACKWARDS?

I cannot FEEL that I am leaning BACKWARDS.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

So,
I said do a REVERSE LEANING backwards.

MOVE your hips, the RIGHT hand belt loop,
AWAY from the shooting line.

Just slide your hips 2-3 inches AWAY from the shooting line.

and,
now just fire normally.

When you move the hips AWAY from the shooting line,
and you aim at the same bullseye 20 yards away (at the Lancaster Archery Shooting Center),
the height of the target did not change...

so,
the two ARM PITS automatically
will move TOWARDS the shooting line..

as long as you do NOT bend the bow arm elbow..

keep the bow arm elbow extended.

So,
when your LOWER body moves AWAY from the shooting line,
then,
the UPPER BODY will automatically lean FORWARDS...instead of backwards..

and
the bareshaft NAILED the x-ring.

LEAN FORWARDS, the REVERSE of leaning BACKWARDS...

and
play with bow hand grip position,
using masking tape,
using a centerline on the masking tape
using a matching mark on your bow hand,
and then shifting the mark a little LEFT or RIGHT of the masking tape centerline.

ROLL
PITCH 
YAW

YAW is a flat turn, left or right,
say a fighter jet on an aircraft carrier,
parking in the LEFT hand parking spaces
parking in the RIGHT hand parking spaces.

When a jet makes a flat left or right turn, on the runway,
this is YAW.

THUMB on your bow hand is the nose of the jet.

MAKE a FLAT left or RIGHT turn,
a really TINY one,
point your bow hand thumb
by rotating your bow hand around the grip,
in a FLAT left or right hand turn...

say 1/64th inch.


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## DaneHunter (Jul 6, 2013)

Tagged for later. Having a heck of a time with this new Motive. Cant get my low nock tear gone. Set everything back to center shot and will go through this thread again later.


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## oldbear (May 13, 2013)

tagged


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## johncraddock445 (Aug 7, 2012)

nuts&bolts said:


> So,
> I said do a REVERSE LEANING backwards.
> 
> MOVE your hips, the RIGHT hand belt loop,
> ...


Okay great thank you, I will give it a try tomorrow


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## evox (Jan 5, 2014)

tagged for later


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## [email protected] (Feb 17, 2013)

I will tell you, Nuts&Bolts gave me this same advice and IT helped so much.

Nock high or low could also be cam synchronization. What your stops do in a draw board and what they do when you hold the bow and draw it, will not be the same unless your hand happens to be a metal pipe.

This may be the reason why people say you want the top stop hitting and gap on bottom. When you hold the bow in your hand, you change Center of Pressure to a lower point and that gap on the bottom will close.

Does for me, every time.


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## Jhorne (Jul 15, 2003)

[email protected] said:


> I will tell you, Nuts&Bolts gave me this same advice and IT helped so much.
> 
> Nock high or low could also be cam synchronization. What your stops do in a draw board and what they do when you hold the bow and draw it, will not be the same unless your hand happens to be a metal pipe.
> 
> ...


Will having the top cam stop hit first take care of the high tear?


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## DaneHunter (Jul 6, 2013)

[email protected] said:


> I will tell you, Nuts&Bolts gave me this same advice and IT helped so much.
> 
> Nock high or low could also be cam synchronization. What your stops do in a draw board and what they do when you hold the bow and draw it, will not be the same unless your hand happens to be a metal pipe.
> 
> ...


I think timing is my issue. Didn't matter how high I move my d loop still get the tear. I set my arrow level, but have no draw board to check timing. Can I experiment with twisting cables to set if I can get my tear to go away? Or do I tinker with limb pressure. I didn't really have an issue before I increased poundage so I'm guessing maybe my limes need tweaked?


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

Jhorne said:


> Will having the top cam stop hit first take care of the high tear?


What arrow rest?


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

DaneHunter said:


> I think timing is my issue. Didn't matter how high I move my d loop still get the tear. I set my arrow level, but have no draw board to check timing. Can I experiment with twisting cables to set if I can get my tear to go away? Or do I tinker with limb pressure. I didn't really have an issue before I increased poundage so I'm guessing maybe my limes need tweaked?


Provide pic of current d-loop position.
Bow limb pockets both touching s wall.
ARROW rest arm in full up position.


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## DaneHunter (Jul 6, 2013)

nuts&bolts said:


> Provide pic of current d-loop position.
> Bow limb pockets both touching s wall.
> ARROW rest arm in full up position.


I can get A few pics when I get home. What do you mean "s wall"? Bow has 70lb limbsturned down to 62lbs. Was paper tuned at 60lbs shooting bullet holes.


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## Jhorne (Jul 15, 2003)

nuts&bolts said:


> What arrow rest?


Golden Key Infinity Blade


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

Jhorne said:


> Golden Key Infinity Blade


A blade is finicky to tune.

Step one.
set axle rotation spring pressure to max stiffness.

Adjust blade angle to 30 degrees.

Now install a 0.008 blade. ..if you can.

If you are using the heavy Infinity blade...
then set axle rotation spring pressure as cushy as you can
where the spring pressure is so oooo low
arrow weight causes arrow to sag below horizontal. 


Put bow sideways on kitchen table.
Hold arrow parallel to table.
Hold arrow parallel to horizontal arm of your sight.
Hold arrow parallel to front stabilizer. 

This SIMULATES level arrow flight.

Now raise or lower arrow rest height adjustment
until blade just kisses underside of arrow.

Adjust blade arrow rest height so top of
blade just KISSES arrow tube
when you have arrow tube in SIMULATED LEVEL ARROW FLIGHT.

For Golden Key Infinity rest...
if you are using the supplied HEAVY blade...set spring
pressure so the arm SAGS under the weight of the arrow.

A BLADE rest us just a shock absorber.
sooo for Fixed Blade rests....we use super thin spring steel blades
that BEND under the weight of the arrow.

Sooo if using the Super Heavy Un Bending blade from Golden Key
you adjust shock absorber CUSHI-NESS
with the round dial and make the axle rotate the Heavy Blade
to provide VERY GENTLE shock absorption....

Just like a bendy 0.008 blade would provide.

If the WEIGHT of the arrow does not cause the heavy arm to
rotate down....spring rotation pressure is too stiff.

Keep changing spring pressure to a lighter setting...for your
Infinity arrow rest.

The spring pressure rotation dial has a needle indicator
which tells you how much the heavy blade rotated out of the
way of the arrow.

You want a light enough spring rotation pressure so
that you get enough movement from the needle indicator.

A shock absorber that does NOT bounce down and bounce
back up....is not a shock absorber...if the shock absorber
does not move.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

Try playing with spring rotation pressure for your Infinity arrow rest.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

Set arrow rest height for a level arrow with zero rotation on you
Infinity arrow rest.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

Then...play with cam sync to adjust your vertical tear.


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## Jhorne (Jul 15, 2003)

Thanx Allen, I'll play with the rest tension.


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## DaneHunter (Jul 6, 2013)

nuts&bolts said:


> Provide pic of current d-loop position.
> Bow limb pockets both touching s wall.
> ARROW rest arm in full up position.


This is my tear I cant get rid of:



This is my bow with an arrow square attached: 





I only have 8 yards to shoot a home, but at that distance my bareshafts hit in the same spot. Move out to 20 yards and my bareshafts are six inches high and to the left or my fletched.


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## DaneHunter (Jul 6, 2013)

I just realized by looking at the pictures that I bet my D-loop actually is low because my rest doesn't go full height until I'm at full draw.... Guess I need to correct that. Funny how you notice things you never even thought of looking from outside perspective.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

DaneHunter said:


> I just realized by looking at the pictures that I bet my D-loop actually is low because my rest doesn't go full height until I'm at full draw.... Guess I need to correct that. Funny how you notice things you never even thought of looking from outside perspective.


Load an arrow.
Hold the arrow rest to the full up position.

If the arrow is pointing UP HILL,
then,
correct the d-loop position.

d-loop TOO LOW, you load the bottom axle TOO HARD, and you get your tail low paper tear.

So,
the fix is always the same,
move the d-loop higher,
to load the TOP AXLE HARDER
and
to allow the bottom axle to work LESS hard.


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## ArcherXXX300 (Apr 22, 2013)

Tag for future reference.


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## treestandnappin (Aug 5, 2012)

for later


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## Jhorne (Jul 15, 2003)

Using a .010 blade Allen


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## gettinold (Oct 23, 2013)

mark


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## ontarget7 (Dec 30, 2009)

DaneHunter said:


> I just realized by looking at the pictures that I bet my D-loop actually is low because my rest doesn't go full height until I'm at full draw.... Guess I need to correct that. Funny how you notice things you never even thought of looking from outside perspective.


You might have posted and I could have missed it but what are your specs, draw length and arrows ?


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## Bowtoons (Jan 4, 2008)

DaneHunter said:


> This is my tear I cant get rid of:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


By the looks of your loop. I would almost bet your getting nock pinch. Tie in a soft nock set and see if it helps. Only takes a min. to do.


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## Dsquared (Feb 13, 2009)

I have a Elite Energy 35 bareshaft question. I spent time tuning the bow. Cams are timed, shoots perfect bullet hole at 6 ft., bareshafts hit with fletched arrows at 30 yds. But at 40 yds. the bareshaft goes nuts fishtailing and misses the target high, left, who knows? I'm not sure how much more I want to mess with it because it does shoot fletched arrows and broadheads great. Am I thinking too much into this or make some minor adjustment? All thoughts appreciated.


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## jab73 (Jan 22, 2013)

Dsquared said:


> I have a Elite Energy 35 bareshaft question. I spent time tuning the bow. Cams are timed, shoots perfect bullet hole at 6 ft., bareshafts hit with fletched arrows at 30 yds. But at 40 yds. the bareshaft goes nuts fishtailing and misses the target high, left, who knows? I'm not sure how much more I want to mess with it because it does shoot fletched arrows and broadheads great. Am I thinking too much into this or make some minor adjustment? All thoughts appreciated.


I would be thrilled with 30 yard bareshaft. Broadheads shooring well. 40 yards is probably a form issue magnified ...


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## Bowtoons (Jan 4, 2008)

DaneHunter said:


> This is my tear I cant get rid of:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Another thing if you hadn't check already would be fletching contact. That rest cord needs to be longer and moved down a bit.


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## [email protected] (Feb 17, 2013)

Jhorne said:


> Will having the top cam stop hit first take care of the high tear?



I'm just learning but from what I understand, the can with the gap will fire first during the shot. If it doesn't reach full draw, it should start first.

My biggest advice for a high or low tear would be creep tune to the best of your abilities, then shoot a bare shaft. It will tell you if you've got a nocking point issue or not.

Nock high or low could be a nocking point issue or a cam synchronization issue. Could be a bit of both or even a spine issue from what I've heard.


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## [email protected] (Feb 17, 2013)

DaneHunter said:


> I think timing is my issue. Didn't matter how high I move my d loop still get the tear. I set my arrow level, but have no draw board to check timing. Can I experiment with twisting cables to set if I can get my tear to go away? Or do I tinker with limb pressure. I didn't really have an issue before I increased poundage so I'm guessing maybe my limes need tweaked?



I'd guess its not timing but rather synchronization. When you move your nocking point you change cam synchronization a little bit.

Maybe a few of my videos will answer your questions

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Smrbmp0tNU&feature=youtube_gdata_player

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8UjQ66l1t5Q&feature=youtube_gdata_player

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j2leY-l5wGk&feature=youtube_gdata_player

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qB65QMwW6b8&feature=youtube_gdata_player


It might make a little since (?) If you view them I order.


I'm sorry they are long winded and I have trouble trying to explain what I mean. 

If I've been saying something that may be incorrect. I just began to understand how bows work . Let me k ow how it works for you


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## [email protected] (Feb 17, 2013)

Shortly I will post one more video here with the conventional drawboard. Its always hard to catch these tiny things on camera but I'll do my best.
My attempt will be to show the small change in how the draw stops hit, from in a draw board and in your hand. Its simple really, its called center of pressure. The center of pressure is not the same in your hand as a draw board unless your hand is a 1/2" black pipe. 

Now, I don't k ow if this is universal for all can systems, bows, and shooters but it is a very simple test that you can duplicate at home with next to no money at all.

One thing I've done was use a draw. board to set my cams to land on the cables perfectly. I used a turn buckle to micro adjust how far I had the bow drawn and would slide a piece of paper in between the cams and stops until I had the same amount of 'drag' on each cam. 

Talking perfectly even guys!

Shoot a fletched and bareshaft through paper at 12 feet = 3" tail high tear.
A lot of people would say, " my cams are PERFECT" and move their d loop down..

Mistake.

I fought with it, measured limb deflection, experimented with spine and even changed serving diameter around the cams to change the amount of 'take up' of bow string during the shot.

Went through a lot of trouble. Found out it was indeed a cam ynchronization issue.


The way I found out was with creep tuning and then shot a bare shaft. I was amazed at how little adjustment with my cables.... made a ton of change to my nock high issue.

In fact, after I did that I only used my limb bolts to change a very slight tail high tear with my bareshaft. I was so surprised man I couldn't tell you guys enough.

I was videoing all this for my cousin and uncle and two guys here from at that I've been in messing with through email and texts. I'm so happy I was recording it because when I say I split a single strand of bowstring at 20 yards, I got proof.
Or when I say I had almost an exact, perfect, bareshaft tune in only three shots (only adjusting my limb bolts guys!) I've got it on tape for a demonstration.

Now, I use the limb bolts from now on. No moving d loop and peep any more.. which changes the cam synchronization.

If you move the d loop and peep, gotta twist the bowstring to get your peep landing straight again.
You have to have a press for that and on top of that think of this...
You twist the bowstring, you have altered your 'timing'

So you spend half a day adjusting this and that and not seeing results.. that's because when you make one change, you make SOOOO many changes to the bow without realizing it.

I'm going to be posting a video in a bit to add visual to the story.


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## [email protected] (Feb 17, 2013)

[email protected] said:


> Shortly I will post one more video here with the conventional drawboard. Its always hard to catch these tiny things on camera but I'll do my best.
> My attempt will be to show the small change in how the draw stops hit, from in a draw board and in your hand. Its simple really, its called center of pressure. The center of pressure is not the same in your hand as a draw board unless your hand is a 1/2" black pipe.
> 
> Now, I don't k ow if this is universal for all can systems, bows, and shooters but it is a very simple test that you can duplicate at home with next to no money at all.
> ...




Didn't do the best demonstration but tried to illustrated my theory.

I'm seriously asking for advice as well. Nobody gets it right the first time and even Albert Einstein has been proven wrong.

He published his theory of relitivity , stating nothing could move faster than the speed of light. He has been proven wrong with the hydron collider.

Anyway, here's what I was speaking of.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X8Ol9qSCzD4&feature=youtube_gdata_player

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SImhZhQ17k0&feature=youtube_gdata_player

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ebxjkuiP8G0&feature=youtube_gdata_player

Thanks for viewing and voice your opinions. It don't hurt.

Thanks


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## [email protected] (Feb 17, 2013)

Bowtoons said:


> Another thing if you hadn't check already would be fletching contact. That rest cord needs to be longer and moved down a bit.


Agreed. I've never seen one so high. I know mine was to long and was causing issues so I'd think being to short would also create problems.

If your curious you could spray the whole arrow down on the bottom side and you would see if the arrow was skipping along the rest, and also see about where it drops.

Interesting idea but I never got it to work.


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## kballer1 (Aug 31, 2010)

Tagged.


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## DaneHunter (Jul 6, 2013)

You were right Hartshot, it was a cam sync issue. Had my wife watch my cams as I drew and my bottom cam was hitting about 1/4" before the top cam. Added one complete twist to my buss cable and now Im shooting bullets holes. Bareshafts are hitting perfect but has a slight left right tear through paper, but I can probably adjust that by slighting tweaking the rest. Appreciate all the input. Ive never had a Dual cam bow before, so all this type of tuning is new to me, but I think Im getting better at it. Thanks for all the help!


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## [email protected] (Feb 17, 2013)

DaneHunter said:


> You were right Hartshot, it was a cam sync issue. Had my wife watch my cams as I drew and my bottom cam was hitting about 1/4" before the top cam. Added one complete twist to my buss cable and now Im shooting bullets holes. Bareshafts are hitting perfect but has a slight left right tear through paper, but I can probably adjust that by slighting tweaking the rest. Appreciate all the input. Ive never had a Dual cam bow before, so all this type of tuning is new to me, but I think Im getting better at it. Thanks for all the help!


Cool deal. Glad I could help. I fought with it for so long I was hoping to save the world when I figured it out.
Glad its working for you.


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## [email protected] (Feb 17, 2013)

Also, I was planning on some put together stuff for the initial set up of my bow. I followed Alans advice and my bareshaft was inline with fletched all the way from 6 feet, to 20 yards. Not a lot of people will go through all the trouble I did setting up my bow. But it was truly a breeze to tune it and I'm just a beginner with a beginners bow. The chances of getting it perfectly set up from the beginning are less than winning the power all three times in a roll.

Mostly the set up was identical to nuts&bolts idea. While I followed it almost exactly, I did make a few changes to it. Mostly, identical though.


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## [email protected] (Feb 17, 2013)

Dane. 
One other thing I noticed was your bow square is sitting on the serving on top but on the string itself on bottom. I don't know it it will make as big of a change as people say because I don't use one.


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## RuntCX2 (Oct 8, 2012)

I put new string's on my Answer yesterday and shot a few shot's to settle the string's before I put my peep in. I fired the top 2 fletched first then the bottom fletched and the bare shaft was last at 20 yard's. I was rather impressed with out a peep.


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## [email protected] (Feb 17, 2013)

Can't beat that!


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## huntforfood703 (Jan 14, 2014)

tagged


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## turkeyhunter60 (Apr 19, 2010)

Subscribed....


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## Mrcnwlvrn (Feb 24, 2014)

Tagged


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## stuie88 (Nov 14, 2013)

So I have a new (used) bow, and for the first time creep and then yoke tuned bare shafts.

I had just stripped it and put new limbs and cams on, so I started from scratch. The previous owner of the cams had drawn timing marks, which were a little misleading. But I got it close, did a quick French tune for centre shot and then started to creep tune. 
The arrow seemed to be climbing as I went back, hitting very high. The rest is set dead level so I assumed it was a nock travel issue.
Top cam seemed to be behind, so I removed a twist at a time and then shot a fletched and a BS each time and watched.









It was interesting to watch the impacts walk down the target, and I was surprised at how much lateral difference there was from the timing change.

The holes at the bottom are from about 8 metres, the others are from 15. I don't have a lot of room in my yard. Once the height was ok a put an extra twist in the left yoke, followed by a half twist more and got my "x".

Then, for the first time ever I grabbed two different broadheads (one two blade and a three, both fixed), and a couple BS, and shot this.








Unfortunately the box isn't holding together to well so the arrows fell apart a bit, and I was pretty fatigued and pulled a bit of a flier in the top left bareshaft. But I was pretty happy with this. 
Easily the best tune I've ever done.

So I just wanted to say thanks to all the guys who regularly contribute to these threads to help guys like me. 

Because of you guys I am, for the first time, not tearing my hair out trying to find a way to make my broadheads hit where I'd prefer.

Thanks very much


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## eliminator2 (Feb 19, 2011)

Tag


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## [email protected] (Feb 17, 2013)

stuie88 said:


> So I have a new (used) bow, and for the first time creep and then yoke tuned bare shafts.
> 
> I had just stripped it and put new limbs and cams on, so I started from scratch. The previous owner of the cams had drawn timing marks, which were a little misleading. But I got it close, did a quick French tune for centre shot and then started to creep tune.
> The arrow seemed to be climbing as I went back, hitting very high. The rest is set dead level so I assumed it was a nock travel issue.
> ...




Good work. Yes it is interesting to see how synchronization will change point of impact.

I usually will creep tune first to rule out synchronization being the cause of nock high or nock low through paper with a bareshaft. I got pretty lucky with one bow and synchronized the cams first, then shot a bareshaft through paper until I had a perfect bullet hole out to 15 yards. I used yokes to take care of right and left, and my limb bolts to fine tune the nock height for a bullet hole.

Shot a bare and three fetched at 20 and they all slapped. 30 yard groups were 1-1.5" with fletched and broad heads flew true with field tips to 90.

I thought I'd fly a bareshaft out to 80 and used the wrong pin. Went over my target and down I to a pit behind it. Found the. bareshaft several days later over 200 yards away, point first in the dirt.

I'm gonna have to. break that bow back out and put some new strings on her and zee what I can do with it now that I can shoot a little. etter


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## horsetooth (Jul 9, 2012)

Ive been using Nuts & Bolt's methods and these are the current results
Real results!!

Starting point with a good paper tune 30yds








Made some adjustments 30yds








I went down a rabbit hole for a while and things got really out of whack

So I started over. I took video of myself shooting to make sure my draw length and form were good.
reset the cables for cam lean and paper tuned to bullet holes
set nock height perfect 90 degree.
splitting string at 5' with bare and fletched

went to the range and things were good, but needed some fine tuning.
added 1/8 turn to bottom cam and bumped the rest left less than a pencil line. 

Results
35yds, 3 fletched, 1 bare








45 yds








I still have a bit of vertical travel. I was a little tired, so Im not going to do anything until I can get out and shoot fresh.

Thanks Nut's & Bolts !!

Thanks [email protected]!!


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## [email protected] (Feb 17, 2013)

horsetooth said:


> Ive been using Nuts & Bolt's methods and these are the current results
> Real results!!
> 
> Starting point with a good paper tune 30yds
> ...




I'll tell you that's some great shooting! 

One of the best tunes I did was adjusting limb bolts faintly to micro adjust nocking point. Reason was it was less than an inch tail high tear through paper with a bareshaft @15 yards. Slight adjustment gave a bullet hole. Fletched and bareshaft were touching at 20 and one inch groups at 30. Actually would aim slightly high or low or to the side because I was ruining nocks. I was tickled, I'm not that great of shot, but those arrows always found each other.


I've wondered something for any of you fellas that might have any theories or ideas.. would slightly adjusting the limb bolts to fine tune the nock height do the exact same thing as moving the rest?
I'm sure it would slightly change tiller, which supposedly will change how the bow holds.

Any ideas with that one?


Would center of pressure differences make it hard to actually tell the difference?


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## ctownshooter (Jun 6, 2013)

*bareshaft help*

so im reading all this great info, and tried nuts and bolts 1 yard bareshaft exercise last week. seemed to really be helping my grip, posture and overall shooting. had problems with weird arrow flight, until i went back and reset my centershot, and that cured the flight issues. i worked up to 4 yds on the bareshaft and all seemed to really be going well. my 40 and 50 yard shots were really improving. i was gaining some confidence in my setup and my shooting. all this was the last 2 weeks. this past weekend i went and shot some 3d and all seemed to be going well at first. 10s were popping up and even a couple 12s. then the second half of the course things seemed to fall off a little. was it me, or the bow? so i rechecked my shot sequence. seemed ok. l still finished with a personal best. ok. so today im practicing in the back yard and all shots off right. examining my bow i found that my rest was loose. i guess i didnt get it tight enough last week. great, back on. so i went to 10 yards bareshaft exercise, my shafts are hitting the flectched sharpie mark, but nock left about 1 inch or so. will twist or untwist yoke cable help here or is it just form? 

sorry for the longwindedness, just wanted you guys to know how much your info and tips have helped me. thanks a whole lot.
Jeff


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

ctownshooter said:


> so im reading all this great info, and tried nuts and bolts 1 yard bareshaft exercise last week. seemed to really be helping my grip, posture and overall shooting. had problems with weird arrow flight, until i went back and reset my centershot, and that cured the flight issues. i worked up to 4 yds on the bareshaft and all seemed to really be going well. my 40 and 50 yard shots were really improving. i was gaining some confidence in my setup and my shooting. all this was the last 2 weeks. this past weekend i went and shot some 3d and all seemed to be going well at first. 10s were popping up and even a couple 12s. then the second half of the course things seemed to fall off a little. was it me, or the bow? so i rechecked my shot sequence. seemed ok. l still finished with a personal best. ok. so today im practicing in the back yard and all shots off right. examining my bow i found that my rest was loose. i guess i didnt get it tight enough last week. great, back on. so i went to 10 yards bareshaft exercise, my shafts are hitting the flectched sharpie mark, but nock left about 1 inch or so. will twist or untwist yoke cable help here or is it just form?
> 
> sorry for the longwindedness, just wanted you guys to know how much your info and tips have helped me. thanks a whole lot.
> Jeff



IF you are right handed...

two ways to go about this.

1) work the bow, and tweak the yoke cables and don't change a THING with your form.

or

2) leave the bow alone, and work your form.


I was at Lancaster Archery a day early, to do my seminar over there.
Fella was shooting bareshafts and missing 6-inches RIGHT of the x-ring, at 20 yards (nock left condition)
and a Right Handed shooter.

He wanted to know what to FIX on his bow.

I said NOTHING.

WORK on your form.
STOP leaning backwards.

He said, "I cannot FEEL that I am leaning backwards".

I said. OK.

Just lean FORWARDS then. Move the hips sideways away from the shooting line, say 2-3 inches.
The two arm pits will AUTOMATICALLY move closer to the shooting line.

MOVING the lower body AWAY from the shooting line,
forces the UPPER body to move TOWARDS the shooting line,
and

what this REALLY DOES,
moving the hips AWAY from the shooting line,
forces an ALIGNMENT change of the release side forearm,
so the release side forearm POINTS MORE DUE NORTH...instead of NORTH EAST (left paper tear....bareshafts pointing NOCK LEFT).

Give that a whirl.

*Go from THIS....*



*to THIS...*




When you move the RIGHT hand belt loop of your jeans
SIDEWAYS
AWAY from the shooting line,

your release side forearm SWINGS LIKE A WEATHER VANE
and will cleanup your LEFT paper tear,
or will cleanup your bareshaft pointing NOCK LEFT.


Sooo,
back to this fella at Lancaster Archery,
whose Baresahft was missing 6-INCHES to the right of the x-ring.

NO CHANGES to his bow.
Same shooting stance, for lower body/feet.

Had him SLIDE his hips SIDEWAYS away from the shooting line, 2-3 inches.
Two armpits automatically moved CLOSER to the shooting line.

SAme bow arm elbow bend, as always.

BINGO.

Bareshaft NAILED the x-ring 20 yards away.


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## [email protected] (Feb 17, 2013)

Jeff,

I really am just a new archer and my experience is somewhat limited. I do not claim to be an expert. With that said, I'll continue on with my spill..

By FAR the best thing I did with my grip was to experiment with bareshaft through paper... using liquid dish soap on my grip and hand to get a torque free grip on the bow. I used this idea I got from Nuts&Bolts.

Instant feedback because if you normally get a bareshaft bullet hole and then try the soap and get a left of right tear, you know you were naturally adding a bit of torque when you originally tuned the bow for a bullet hole.
If you get a rip naturally, then try the soap and get a bullet hole, I'd say the bow was tuned pretty well, but the archer naturally torques a little and needs to work on the grip.

I've been a little cocky with some of my statements, I admit. I'm just a little proud of myself for the mountain of obstacles Ive overcome. I mentioned I split a bowstring at 20 yards, and bareshaft tuned in three shots. True story, and I'm glad I got it on camera. He!! Yeah, anyone would upload that to YouTube. Same as a 3" group from a football field away. Can I do it every time? Of course not! But could I do it again.. I bet I could.

If you wanna try to improve your grip, I'm sure there are a millions ways to do it. What works for me was to use liquid dish soap and rotate nocks on a bareshaft through paper at 22-24 feet.
Picture this... as I rotate the nocks, let's say I get a 1" right tear at the largest tear, and as I rotate the nocks slightly each time I rotate and shoot again, the tear walks around to a bullet hole... come full circle again, rotating the nocks slightly and every shot I see the tear getting worse, eventually ending up back to a 1" right tear.


I think the nock position that gave a bullet hole, was where the spine index of the shaft, or the stiff side of the shaft, was resisting the right tear. So Indeed, I believe I have found the stiff side of the shaft, but have it sideways, to resist the slight side ways kick that my bow is producing.

I've heard guys just rotate the nocks to give bullet holes, fletch them up, and call it good. But it was nagging at me that I saw the right tear.

Let's experiment with this... Either back the lower limb bolt out and add to the top slightly, or drop your rest. Either way, you're going to Induce nock high flight.

Good to know!

From that point, rotate nocks again until you get the smallest tail high position. I think I've found the stiff side, and its facing up this way.

In all I do, I probably over think things a lot. I'm not always right, and what works for me might not work for you. 18 months ago I couldn't hit a paper plate at 60. Now I can from twice the range. Use to, couldn't get a bareshaft to fly 20 yards... now I can from several football fields away. Didn't record it for. bragging rights and maybe I should have. When I say I can shoot 1.5-2" groups at 40 yards, I got videos. Split a .010"-.012" bowstring at 60 feet, got videos for that too. In fact, I've been called out on a lot of my statements, thus.. I've learned. If I'm going to brag a little and pat myself on the back at least be able to prove it.

Now, I'm no expert. Basically just joined ArcheryTalk a shade over a year ago and I still say I'm new. Not being modest, or big headed, but truthful. Although I've come along way, I'm just scratching the surface.

So, to be realistic, if you can get a bareshaft and fletched arrow within 2" @ 20 yards, you're doing better than MOST. From that point its about the Indian and his arrows because the bow is a machine, and will do the same thing every time. As long as the Indian does the same thing every time.

Using the bareshaft and soap, is a little over kill. But I got the same bullet holes at 22-24 feet, with and without the soap. Then I went outside, split a bowstring at 20 yards, and bareshaft tuned my bow in three shots.

What I really enjoy about archery, is watching it fall in there and hit the mark at long range. The flight of an arrow is a sight to beheld. But the real kick in it for me is, nobody can tell me how good I can be. I decide


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## [email protected] (Feb 17, 2013)

What Alan says about draw length and release side forearm alignment is true. A key to accuracy. Got a video on that as well


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## ctownshooter (Jun 6, 2013)

*thanks*

i see why you guys are so good at this, you never sleep.. lol. thanks for the input. Nuts and Bolts after reading your post on that the other night, i thought i might be leaning a little. but i didnt get a clear understanding, but i see what your saying now. i will work on my form because i think it needs a little improvement. i think im bending at the waist but my feet maybe positioned incorrecttly. i will have to pay more attention to stance to see. the bareshafts are hitting with the flecthed, but the nock points to the left, by the way i am left handed. Hartshot i consider myself a new at this too, joined about a year ago. but my progression has not been like yours. i watched a couple of your vids and that was great shooting. gives me something to shoot for, no pun intended. i was shooting one hot, muggy, sweaty day and i noticed i was shooting pretty good. my hands were real sweaty and so was the grip on the bow. so i went with it. havent really tried the soap thing but i will try that. sounds like it works the same. i think i got the dl correct thanks to Nuts and Bolts advise. but i havent had much success with paper tuning, maybe i need a better paper setup. i do a lot of creep tuning and walkback tuning. my best group at 60 yards 8 inch so far which i havent done a lot.

so guys i really appreciate all the advise yall are giving. looks like i still got a lot of work to do on ME. there is still a lot of reading and learning to do. i also think its time for a new rest as well. looking at the limbdriver pro. thanks again guys, and get some rest, so we can catch up.


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## MOBIGBUCKS (Aug 12, 2006)

Marked for later


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## db102550 (Sep 20, 2011)

Saved for later


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

ctownshooter said:


> i see why you guys are so good at this, you never sleep.. lol. thanks for the input. Nuts and Bolts after reading your post on that the other night, i thought i might be leaning a little. but i didnt get a clear understanding, but i see what your saying now. i will work on my form because i think it needs a little improvement. i think im bending at the waist but my feet maybe positioned incorrecttly. i will have to pay more attention to stance to see. the bareshafts are hitting with the flecthed, but the nock points to the left, by the way i am left handed. Hartshot i consider myself a new at this too, joined about a year ago. but my progression has not been like yours. i watched a couple of your vids and that was great shooting. gives me something to shoot for, no pun intended. i was shooting one hot, muggy, sweaty day and i noticed i was shooting pretty good. my hands were real sweaty and so was the grip on the bow. so i went with it. havent really tried the soap thing but i will try that. sounds like it works the same. i think i got the dl correct thanks to Nuts and Bolts advise. but i havent had much success with paper tuning, maybe i need a better paper setup. i do a lot of creep tuning and walkback tuning. my best group at 60 yards 8 inch so far which i havent done a lot.
> 
> so guys i really appreciate all the advise yall are giving. looks like i still got a lot of work to do on ME. there is still a lot of reading and learning to do. i also think its time for a new rest as well. looking at the limbdriver pro. thanks again guys, and get some rest, so we can catch up.


LEft handed shooter.
Nock is pointing LEFT.

Think of your RELEASE side forearm, 
as a weather vane.

DOUBLE the length of your d-loop
and swing your elbow FARTHER Behind your head,
when at full draw.

MORE stretch across the chest.

Forearm is pointing NORTH EAST,
so,
with longer d-loop,
swing elbow behind your head,
so your forearm points DUE NORTH.


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## reezen11 (Oct 22, 2009)

tons of helpful info here


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## RedbeardHD90 (Mar 3, 2013)

Tag


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## bigStickslinger (Oct 22, 2013)

Tag


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## ctownshooter (Jun 6, 2013)

thanks for the advise, so moving the elbow farther behind the head slightly changes the dl. this along with working the grip should bring the nocks inline with the impact point. thanks again. cant wait to get that dvd.


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## bullsi (Jan 18, 2006)

Tagged


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## rmt1993 (Feb 10, 2013)

Tagged


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## dw'struth (Mar 14, 2008)

Tag


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## [email protected] (Feb 17, 2013)

nuts&bolts said:


> Soo,
> duct tape shooting line 4 yards away from the target.
> 
> You fire a fletched arrow and make a new hole,
> ...





Hey bud, what bow is this? The design of that cam is amazing. Really looks like an aggressive bow...


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

[email protected] said:


> Hey bud, what bow is this? The design of that cam is amazing. Really looks like an aggressive bow...


This is the Stevens Archery Inception.


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## [email protected] (Feb 17, 2013)

One thing, and I can't stress this enough.. once you get a bareshaft tune, flip that shaft upside down and see what it does. Almost every time I have, the shaft flew different, so try from close. 
I'm in the market for new arrows, once I can afford them and get them, I'd like to post a pictorial/ video of what issues I might encounter, and what it takes to fix it.
Bareshaft tuning is a little advanced. For a new archer, its like rocket science. For an advanced shooter, its more along the lines of 8th grade math. So it really depends on your skill level. If you need work on your form, grip, or draw length, you'll likely experience a ton of trouble.
With me, I know I need to work on my form more, but I'm doing alright.
Something not mentioned as much is your release. If you're inconsistent and pulling sideways as you release, you'll have a ton of trouble. I've just begun to focus on this more and it helps a lot.

Anyone else have ideas, please chime in.

I'm rather pleased with this thread guys! Made it past 5 pages and there's no name calling yet! I feel like everyone can learn something here, so thank you all for you're shared experiences.

Some guys like me, probably only me, tend to pick everything apart. This is because I truly want to know if the issue is me, or my bow. I just want to learn so I jump in face first. Then when I think I've learned something or discovered something, my goal is to share it with you fellas. I look at it as an opportunity to give back something to you people who have been kind enough to respond to my questions, and plant ideas in my mind.
Thank all of you so very much for your kindness, and time. Truly a bunch of good folks!


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## horsetooth (Jul 9, 2012)

Not posting this to brag,
But the tune is good!
Better than my ability

I noticed something very interesting with this group.

The farthest left arrow was the "flyer" of the group.
When the shot went off I noticed the slightest sensation, for lack of a better word, in my grip.

The other shots went off without any feeling at all in my grip.

When the left shot went off, the feeling was like a slight pinch or pressure
very, very, very subtle
noticeable only because I have been paying extra attention to grip

Goes to show how important the grip is to the mechanics of a good shot

50 yds
4 fletched, 1 bare shaft


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## ctownshooter (Jun 6, 2013)

so i put in some serious practice time today, and im feeling it a little right now. so i first made sure my centershot was close. then i did some shooting from the 40 to check my group tuning which didnt go so well. so i had to move my rest a little, to the right, to clean up left misses. shot for another hour or so. then came the bareshaft tuning time. i had lenghtened the dloop a little and tried another release. bareshafts still hitting nock left to the fletched arrows. so i concentrated on my bow hand. i noticed my thumb was pointing off to the left side a lot, so i changed it to point more at the target. this helped some. then i noticed i was not dropping my bow shoulder. dropped the shoulder and an hour later and 3 paper plates later the bareshafts were touching the fletched at 7 yards. so i guess a whole lot more work is needed to extend this to 10 then 20 yards. i really want to work on this as i think it will go a long way into fixing my inconsistencies. thanks guys for all the info, im still reading and learning. 

when i can figure it out i will post some pics, i know how we like those. anybody own an arrow sniffing dog i can borrow, im still looking for a few lost in the brush, no backstop.
Jeff.


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## [email protected] (Feb 17, 2013)

Awesome shooting man. I've only been able to get one bow shooting a bareshaft with the group like that at 60 yards and I was using a QAD with level nocking point and a TL1 bracket. The bottom of the arrow is even with the top of the berger hole. It could just be something with the design of the bow. Everyone says to run it even with the Berger hole, but when I do with this bow the bareshaft is higher than fletched. Don't k ow why, so I just keep the TL1 bracket on it.


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## Rredle (Jul 14, 2012)

Tagged


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## [email protected] (Feb 17, 2013)

We are all learning here, does anyone have any other info or ideas, maybe a success story?

I've been reading a lot here, learning a lot every day. Hope others are as well.
Thanks!


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## c5mrr270 (Mar 3, 2009)

I don't have a success story, its more of a problem. I have been trying to bareshaft my PSE DNA but I cannot seem to clean up my up and down. My left and right is perfect and my bareshafts are grouping, so much so that I robin hooded a bareshaft with another.

The best I can seem to do is bareshafts hitting about 4" high with nocks low. I put twists in the control one way and it's gets to where the BS are hitting 4" high and then starts to get worse. If I put twists in the other way, same thing. My arrow is through the berger hole and nock point is slightly high. Any ideas?


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

c5mrr270 said:


> I don't have a success story, its more of a problem. I have been trying to bareshaft my PSE DNA but I cannot seem to clean up my up and down. My left and right is perfect and my bareshafts are grouping, so much so that I robin hooded a bareshaft with another.
> 
> The best I can seem to do is bareshafts hitting about 4" high with nocks low. I put twists in the control one way and it's gets to where the BS are hitting 4" high and then starts to get worse. If I put twists in the other way, same thing. My arrow is through the berger hole and nock point is slightly high. Any ideas?


Simple.

Bareshaft hitting 4-inches HIGH...is bottom axle working OVERTIME.
Bareshaft hitting 4-inches HIGH...is top axle, not working hard enough...top axle on vacation.

SEVERAL ways to fix this.

EASIEST way.

1/4-turn off the bottom limb bolt.
ASSUMING top limb bolt is at maximum, so leave it alone.


TEST it.

Then,
take another 1/4-turn off the bottom limb bolt.

TEST again.


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## Ob1.25 (Sep 5, 2010)

Bareshaft point high /nock low at 20 yards, left/right ok,very tight bareshaft group. 

Alphaelite fuel cams,50-60lbs, spot hogg edge rest, .008 blade at around 30 degrees,
29.5 inch module, bomar draw stop in 29 in. position,68% let off, bottom cam a hair behind top cam.
Arrow level with no load/ sag in blade.

Keep lowering arrow rest? Back out bottom limb bolt?

How do I use limb bolts to tune if they are bottomed out, Without cutting peak weight? Bow is shooting 282fps I hate to drop anymore. I like the current holding weight and pin float pattern.

Could I back the bolts out, twist cables to preload limbs? Should I start shopping for some heavier limbs??


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## [email protected] (Feb 17, 2013)

Ob1.25 said:


> Bareshaft point high /nock low at 20 yards, left/right ok,very tight bareshaft group.
> 
> Alphaelite fuel cams,50-60lbs, spot hogg edge rest, .008 blade at around 30 degrees,
> 29.5 inch module, bomar draw stop in 29 in. position,68% let off, bottom cam a hair behind top cam.
> ...



The first thing I do is take one turn off each limb and add twist to ALL three strings to shorten data and add per load to the limbs till I reach spec. Draw weight. That way I have plenty of limb bolt adjustment.

If you creep tune first, you will make sure you're not just putting a bandaid on a nocking point issue when its usually a CAM SYNC issue. After you get cams synchronized, a bare shaft will tell you if you're nocking point is good.


Finished creep tune:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8UjQ66l1t5Q&feature=youtube_gdata_player


Bareshaft came out almost perfect after a creep tune:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j2leY-l5wGk&feature=youtube_gdata_player


The first thing I do with new bow or strings is creep tune, then fire a bare shaft. I've had such good success with this method, as you can see.


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## [email protected] (Feb 17, 2013)

I forgot to mention why I twist all three strings. Its because I'm trying to keep static timing the same. If I add twist only to the power cables and not the bowstring I end up with slightly over rotated timing and slightly longer draw length


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## horsetooth (Jul 9, 2012)

Ob1.25 said:


> Bareshaft point high /nock low at 20 yards, left/right ok,very tight bareshaft group.
> 
> Alphaelite fuel cams,50-60lbs, spot hogg edge rest, .008 blade at around 30 degrees,
> 29.5 inch module, bomar draw stop in 29 in. position,68% let off, bottom cam a hair behind top cam.
> ...


I'm shooting a Hoyt Spyder Turbo with the RKT cams

This bow is very sensitive to limb bolt adjustment. I notice 1/8 turns.
Don't be afraid to try a small 1/8 turn.


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## Art Wells (Jul 23, 2010)

[email protected] said:


> One thing, and I can't stress this enough.. once you get a bareshaft tune, flip that shaft upside down and see what it does. Almost every time I have, the shaft flew different, so try from close.
> I'm in the market for new arrows, once I can afford them and get them, I'd like to post a pictorial/ video of what issues I might encounter, and what it takes to fix it.
> Bareshaft tuning is a little advanced. For a new archer, its like rocket science. For an advanced shooter, its more along the lines of 8th grade math. So it really depends on your skill level. If you need work on your form, grip, or draw length, you'll likely experience a ton of trouble.
> With me, I know I need to work on my form more, but I'm doing alright.
> ...


I set up my new pro edge, with a blade rest. Set the blade per kitchen sink method. I sighted in at 20 yards. First bare shaft was within a inch of fletched. Same bare shaft , same result on the second shot. Third shot 5" low ,and nock high. I shot about ten times and it was on or it was 5" low. So I marked the arrow. One way it hit with the fletched arrow, flipped it and 5" low and nock high.
I was going to rotate the nock, and see if it affected it at all but I ran out of time. Tomorrow I think I will strip the fletching from another arrow and try it again.


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## dw'struth (Mar 14, 2008)

I'm having trouble getting that last inch to inch and a half. My bareshaft is about an inch to the right of my fletched, and I am stacking bare shafts together. 

It seems no matter what I do, with the rest or yoke, I can't get that last inch from roughly 25 yards. That inch, of course, turns into 6-7 at 30 yards. Tomorrow is a new day....maybe it'll come to me then??


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## [email protected] (Feb 17, 2013)

Art Wells said:


> I set up my new pro edge, with a blade rest. Set the blade per kitchen sink method. I sighted in at 20 yards. First bare shaft was within a inch of fletched. Same bare shaft , same result on the second shot. Third shot 5" low ,and nock high. I shot about ten times and it was on or it was 5" low. So I marked the arrow. One way it hit with the fletched arrow, flipped it and 5" low and nock high.
> I was going to rotate the nock, and see if it affected it at all but I ran out of time. Tomorrow I think I will strip the fletching from another arrow and try it again.


Blade rest... try to weaken the tent ion a shade and/or add microscopic amounts to top limb bolt and subtract small amounts off the lower end. Might take a little of both to work, assuming you're sure your cams are synchronized.

Try a creep tune first, this will tell you a lot about how well the cams are actually working together, or if they are slightly out. The limb bolts adjustment will not change synchronization except of such a microscopic scale, that one would have to be a world class Archer to notice it.

Also, you could try changing from a high to a medium to a low grip and see if that helps. Be careful though. because this will indeed cause you left and right deviations due to accidental, unwanted, and in noticed right and left torque. So start that from close, say 10 yards or so. Let us know.

Sounds like it could be a cam synchronization issue or a nock high. A creep tune will help diagnose if its a nock high.

Adding to top limb and subtracting from bottom slightly, will raise nock point slightly. It will raise the tail off the blade rest a little, maybe perventing it from flipping off the rest. If the limb bolt adjustment makes it worse, you k ow your nocking point is to high.

Also, if you're shooting a limber shaft, spine may be an issue.

Just some ideas, let us know if it helps. Anytime an adjustment makes something worse, try the other way.


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## [email protected] (Feb 17, 2013)

Art Wells said:


> I set up my new pro edge, with a blade rest. Set the blade per kitchen sink method. I sighted in at 20 yards. First bare shaft was within a inch of fletched. Same bare shaft , same result on the second shot. Third shot 5" low ,and nock high. I shot about ten times and it was on or it was 5" low. So I marked the arrow. One way it hit with the fletched arrow, flipped it and 5" low and nock high.
> I was going to rotate the nock, and see if it affected it at all but I ran out of time. Tomorrow I think I will strip the fletching from another arrow and try it again.


Take tentsion off your blade slightly.. it could be a little. to stiff.
It could be slight synchronization issue, try half a twist in one cable and see if it gets better or worse.
Could be nocked to high, or to low. If its to low, it will flip off the rest, into tail high.

You could try adding slightly to top limb bolt Or taking a small amount off the bottom and see if it gets worse or better.
You could also try a low wrist grip and compare the result to a medium grip and a high grip. Lots going on here.

You might have a synch issue.
You might have a nocking point issue (slightly to low)
Or you might have a spine issue (weak)?
Maybe the blade is slightly stiff.


Let us know how it turns out for you


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## [email protected] (Feb 17, 2013)

dw'struth said:


> I'm having trouble getting that last inch to inch and a half. My bareshaft is about an inch to the right of my fletched, and I am stacking bare shafts together.
> 
> It seems no matter what I do, with the rest or yoke, I can't get that last inch from roughly 25 yards. That inch, of course, turns into 6-7 at 30 yards. Tomorrow is a new day....maybe it'll come to me then??


If you're right handed, I bet a slightly shorter D loop will help this. Maybe 1/2" long on draw length. Record yourself as you shoot from straight behind and see if you're pulling your release sideways any when you shoot. This did wonders for me.


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## [email protected] (Feb 17, 2013)

Art Wells said:


> I set up my new pro edge, with a blade rest. Set the blade per kitchen sink method. I sighted in at 20 yards. First bare shaft was within a inch of fletched. Same bare shaft , same result on the second shot. Third shot 5" low ,and nock high. I shot about ten times and it was on or it was 5" low. So I marked the arrow. One way it hit with the fletched arrow, flipped it and 5" low and nock high.
> I was going to rotate the nock, and see if it affected it at all but I ran out of time. Tomorrow I think I will strip the fletching from another arrow and try it again.



I read your post again and I think you may just have experienced your strings settle in after your adjustments. Sometimes I've seen it take my stock strings half a dozen shots. That's another important thing to remember, and when we shoot a bareshaft, the smallest thing will throw it off.


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## crazy4hunting (Feb 4, 2006)

I have a xpedition xcentric(hybrid cam). Long story I won't go into, but I had to start over from scratch. Bow is all in spec. Only ran it thru some paper. Bow is shooting just fine. Decided to try bare shaft at 20. Tried this three times with exact same results. Fletched is perfect of course, bs is impacting to the right about two inches, with the left nock result. Vertically both arrows are the same. So, it needs some twist in the yoke to correct this. Should I simply put a twist in left side, take one out of the right, or only do one side? 

Second ? On my other bow, also hybrid, at 20 yards, it's just the opposite. Left and right are spot on, but bs is hitting 3" low with nock high. If I'm understanding this correctly, a slight adjustment to bottom limb bolt could be made, or is my info mixed up?


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

crazy4hunting said:


> I have a xpedition xcentric(hybrid cam). Long story I won't go into, but I had to start over from scratch. Bow is all in spec. Only ran it thru some paper. Bow is shooting just fine. Decided to try bare shaft at 20. Tried this three times with exact same results. Fletched is perfect of course, bs is impacting to the right about two inches, with the left nock result. Vertically both arrows are the same. So, it needs some twist in the yoke to correct this. Should I simply put a twist in left side, take one out of the right, or only do one side?
> 
> Second ? On my other bow, also hybrid, at 20 yards, it's just the opposite. Left and right are spot on, but bs is hitting 3" low with nock high. If I'm understanding this correctly, a slight adjustment to bottom limb bolt could be made, or is my info mixed up?


BARESHAFT is flying downhill.

Sooo,
this means the UPPER half of your bow (top axle) is working OVERTIME.

Sooo,
this means the LOWER half of your bow (bottom axle) is NOT working hard enough...bottom axle is on vacation.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

crazy4hunting said:


> I have a xpedition xcentric(hybrid cam). Long story I won't go into, but I had to start over from scratch. Bow is all in spec. Only ran it thru some paper. Bow is shooting just fine. Decided to try bare shaft at 20. Tried this three times with exact same results. Fletched is perfect of course, bs is impacting to the right about two inches, with the left nock result. Vertically both arrows are the same. So, it needs some twist in the yoke to correct this. Should I simply put a twist in left side, take one out of the right, or only do one side?
> 
> Second ? On my other bow, also hybrid, at 20 yards, it's just the opposite. Left and right are spot on, but bs is hitting 3" low with nock high. If I'm understanding this correctly, a slight adjustment to bottom limb bolt could be made, or is my info mixed up?



Sooo,
MULTIPLE ways to make the top axle take a break,
and work LESS HARD.

So,

1) MOVE the d-loop down the center serving, say 1/32nd inch.....this reduces the LEVERAGE on the top axle. IF you move the d-loop say 10-INCHES UP towards the top axle,
then, when you hit anchor, you will SNAP the upper limb.

Therefore,
if we move the d-loop DOWN the bowstring,
then, the MORE you move the d-loop DOWN the string,
you are changing cam sync, cuz you pull on the TOP AXLE LESS HARD,
so the top axle MOVES DOWN less than before
so the TOP LIMB bends less than before
so you increase the GAP between the top cam and the cable.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

crazy4hunting said:


> I have a xpedition xcentric(hybrid cam). Long story I won't go into, but I had to start over from scratch. Bow is all in spec. Only ran it thru some paper. Bow is shooting just fine. Decided to try bare shaft at 20. Tried this three times with exact same results. Fletched is perfect of course, bs is impacting to the right about two inches, with the left nock result. Vertically both arrows are the same. So, it needs some twist in the yoke to correct this. Should I simply put a twist in left side, take one out of the right, or only do one side?
> 
> Second ? On my other bow, also hybrid, at 20 yards, it's just the opposite. Left and right are spot on, but bs is hitting 3" low with nock high. If I'm understanding this correctly, a slight adjustment to bottom limb bolt could be made, or is my info mixed up?


Sooo,
if you don't want to move the d-loop....

cuz it can be a hassle, cuz you also have to move the peep as well...

then,
method 2...

is to change the cam sync,
which means you find the control cable..

and you try removing a half twist from the control cable...and test

and you try removing another half twist from the control cable...and test

and you try removing another half twist from the control cable..and test


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

crazy4hunting said:


> I have a xpedition xcentric(hybrid cam). Long story I won't go into, but I had to start over from scratch. Bow is all in spec. Only ran it thru some paper. Bow is shooting just fine. Decided to try bare shaft at 20. Tried this three times with exact same results. Fletched is perfect of course, bs is impacting to the right about two inches, with the left nock result. Vertically both arrows are the same. So, it needs some twist in the yoke to correct this. Should I simply put a twist in left side, take one out of the right, or only do one side?
> 
> Second ? On my other bow, also hybrid, at 20 yards, it's just the opposite. Left and right are spot on, but bs is hitting 3" low with nock high. If I'm understanding this correctly, a slight adjustment to bottom limb bolt could be made, or is my info mixed up?


Sooooo,
method 3...

is to work the TOP limb.

We want to make the TOP AXLE work a bit LESS HARD.

*So,
removing 1 FULL TURN would be tooo much adjustment from the top limb.*

*So,
removing 1/2-TURN would be tooo much adjustment from the top limb.*

*So,
removing 1/4-TURN would be tooo much adjustment from the top limb.*

*So,
removing 1/8th-TURN would be tooo much adjustment from the top limb.*


*So,
removing 1/16th-TURN MIGHT BE JUST RIGHT for adjustment to the top limb.*


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

crazy4hunting said:


> I have a xpedition xcentric(hybrid cam). Long story I won't go into, but I had to start over from scratch. Bow is all in spec. Only ran it thru some paper. Bow is shooting just fine. Decided to try bare shaft at 20. Tried this three times with exact same results. Fletched is perfect of course, bs is impacting to the right about two inches, with the left nock result. Vertically both arrows are the same. So, it needs some twist in the yoke to correct this. Should I simply put a twist in left side, take one out of the right, or only do one side?
> 
> Second ? On my other bow, also hybrid, at 20 yards, it's just the opposite. Left and right are spot on, but bs is hitting 3" low with nock high. If I'm understanding this correctly, a slight adjustment to bottom limb bolt could be made, or is my info mixed up?



MULTIPLE ways to make the top half of your bow, work a TINY BIT less hard.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

crazy4hunting said:


> I have a xpedition xcentric(hybrid cam). Long story I won't go into, but I had to start over from scratch. Bow is all in spec. Only ran it thru some paper. Bow is shooting just fine. Decided to try bare shaft at 20. Tried this three times with exact same results. Fletched is perfect of course, bs is impacting to the right about two inches, with the left nock result. Vertically both arrows are the same. So, it needs some twist in the yoke to correct this. Should I simply put a twist in left side, take one out of the right, or only do one side?
> 
> Second ? On my other bow, also hybrid, at 20 yards, it's just the opposite. Left and right are spot on, but bs is hitting 3" low with nock high. If I'm understanding this correctly, a slight adjustment to bottom limb bolt could be made, or is my info mixed up?



Sooo,
bareshafts missing RIGHT about 2-inches, at 20 yards.

I went to Lancaster Archery to teach a 2-day seminar.
I went a day early.

So,
I was in the shooting center on Friday, day before the seminar
and a customer came downstairs to say hello.

He shot 20 yards,
and bareshafts were missing 6-INCHES to the right.

He wanted to know how to FIX HIS BOW.

*I said, NOTHING wrong with your bow. Bow needs NO ADJUSTMENT.*


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

Fletched were hitting fine in the bullseye at 20 yards.

BARESHAFTS were missing RIGHT by 6-INCHES, and he is a right handed shooter.

I said LEAN FORWARDS.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

He said, I cannot FEEL 
that I am leaning backwards.

I am leaning "backwards"??????

I said,
regardless of what you FEEL..

lean FORWARDS then,
about 2-3 inches.

MOVE the hips, sideways, 2-3-inches AWAY from the shooting line..

pretend that your wife is grabbing your right belt loop
and pulling your jeans/pants sideways in a horizontal line 2-3 inches away from the shooting line.

Your two armpits will automatically move sideways
towards the target, 2-3 inches.

Keep aiming at the bullseye.
Keep the bow arm elbow bend EXACTLY the same.

Just slide the hips, top of jeans sideways, in a horizontal line away from the shooting line.

BELT buckle moves sideways closer to the RIGHT ankle,
before you pull back the d-loop to fire the arrow.

Maintain that NEW shooting posture,
while getting to full draw.


Sooo,
the bareshaft NAILS the x-ring.

*ONE way to fix your issue.*

Shoooting Posture,
lean FORWARDS for a Right Handed Shooter,
bareshaft point of impact will MOVE LEFT.


WHY?
WHY lean forwards?
WHY does it work?

Cuz,
when you lean FORWARDS,
instead of leaning BACKWARDS..

when you lean FORWARDS,
you are actually...

or I am actually,
forcing a re-alignment of YOUR release side forearm.

Your release side FOREARM is a laser pointer guidance system, for your bareshaft.

LEAN FORWARDS,
and I am re-directing your guidance system, MORE towards 90 degrees to the shooting line (DUE NORTH)
just like your front stabilizer is pointed 90 degrees to the shooting line (DUE NORTH).

*When you lean backwards,
YOUR GUIDANCE SYSTEM (release side forearm...is OUT of ALIGNMENT..and points NORTH EAST).*


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## c5mrr270 (Mar 3, 2009)

Lovin' this thread!!! Thanks for the replies.


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## [email protected] (Feb 17, 2013)

nuts&bolts said:


> Fletched were hitting fine in the bullseye at 20 yards.
> 
> BARESHAFTS were missing RIGHT by 6-INCHES, and he is a right handed shooter.
> 
> I said LEAN FORWARDS.



Lol,

When I started standing straight up and using the proper draw length, I noticed my misses were more forgiving and my groups got better.


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## [email protected] (Feb 17, 2013)

I haven't studied hysteresis nor limb deflection differences as much as a lot of guys around but here is my take on this.
Alan is right when you have a nock high, top of bow is working harder in one way or the other.
Its hard to tell what the problem is sometimes. I think I've done a well enough job proofing that you can have nearly perfect arrow flight with a cam synchronization issue and just adjust your nocking point until the arrow comes out of the bow straight. 
That's why paper is useless, because I can show you a bareshaft bullet hole out past 25 yards, then use my digital camera/poor boy high speed photography to show you the nock is on a roller coaster ride IN the bow.

For me, the bareshaft bullet hole, from 22-24 feet, only means quality arrow flight when I know my cam system is working together in unison. Digital photography and a lighted nock is amazing for seeing what the nock is doing inside the bow.
Quality arrow flight is nice, but it starts inside the bow. 

An arrow and a snake have something in common for me. If you can get ahold of the right end, you can control it. With a snake, you get him behind the head.
With an arrow, you get ahold of that nock. Being able to see, on camera, what is happening inside the bow let's you see what your adjustments are doing.

My reasoning for this is, if your arrow is on a roller coaster ride, coming out of the bow... your arrow is flexing more than it should. If you're 'spined properly' and broad heads are all over the place, could be from excessive flex inside the bow, even if its coming out with a bullet hole...even if they spin true.
This is also scary if you've got a damaged shaft or a weak spine.

Go get you a single, high quality arrow that's 20-30 pounds OVER spine and shoot it. It is stiffer and will resist the paradox created inside the bow and will tell ya what your bow is doing. The term paradox is common with finger shot bows, but if you watch any release shot compound bow, with high speed cameras, you see they have a small vertical paradox.
Its just one arrow, won't break the bank, as long as its a good arrow, you have a better chance of spine index not being an issue.

I was shooting [email protected]" and they came out low. At 27" it was tail high. Photography/fireworks display/ blurred motion snowed what to work on.
And since I was able to see it, I could fix it. You can too, and you only need to creep tune a bow first, then use a bareshaft for several things.

I just put the third set of strings on my PSE, went outside and shot them maybe 50 times to let them settle in. I took extreme efforts to build a good set, by laying each strand with 2.5 oz of tension of my tool I use to wrap strands around the pegs. Closed the loops and stretched to 75# while I twisted to 7 twists per foot and separated each color bundle. 200# burnish, strip wax. 300# for an hour, another burnish and serving.

So I started with a pretty good string to begin with. Shot 50 or so shots and then did a little creep tuning. Nuts&Bolts has the best info on this tuning method. Just keep in mind, not to pull HARD for this. You're trying to tune out your draw length inconsistencies from shot to shot, so match that. What works the best for me, the absolute best way I've found is to shoot several shots at 20 yards from just touching the draw stops, and note their impact locations. Then shoot several more shots by pulling a little harder. Add to your pulling tension what you think is about 3 more pounds of pressure for your second set of shots.

If they all land in the same height plane, you're good. You have no tuning to be done, as far as synchronization. Keep in mind, nock travel, spine, as well as spine index. Knowing these elements and how they effect the shot and tune are instrumental and I've just begun to learn a little about these things myself.

If one set of shots land higher or lower, you've gotta decide if its OK with you or you want to fix it. For a tree stand hunter shooting 30 yards with mechanicals, you're good with a poorly tuned bow. It will get the job done. But give this idea a try if you want to be able to call which two ribs you're trying to slide between, and if you want that arrow flying perfectly, to gain the most chance of a pass through.
For a tree stand hunter, you need that pass through so you have a hole on bottom to begin bleeding immediately. If you don't have that second hole on the bottom of the deer, he can run along ways before leaving much blood for you to follow.

I keep trying to get this one buck and he's smart. Can't get within 200 yards.. so I'm going to synchronize my cams perfectly, and practice a lot at 200 yards.. lol, just kidding.

OK, just threw the strings on, shot a few to settle and then began creep tuning. No bareshaft/broad head tuning/ none of that. I had a microscopic change in my static timing to shorten my DL about 1/8" so I only checked my bubble and creep tune.

My soft shots were higher than my pulled harder shots so I had two adjustments I could make to fix this. Remove twist from one power cable, or add twist to the other. A brilliant man from ArcheryTalk with years more experience than me, said not to untwist strings, so I found the one I needed to ADD twist to. It was my top Y cable.

Consider half a twist in your main cable a course adjustment. 
Consider half a twist in your yoke legs is a medium adjustment.
Consider my nylon bulbs idea, if you want a super duper fine adjustment.

With my tiny nylon 'bulbs' on both yoke cables, I can adjust cam synchronization to such a fine degree, that I can't notice moving it an eighth inch, but can notice half a twist in the yoke leg. After I use this idea out to 35-40 yards, and simply can not fine tune it any better, I press the bow and add twist in my yoke legs until I get the cable the length I want it, and the cam is standing flat at full draw.

From this point, I'll go to limb bolts to fine tune my nock point slightly. Because my QAD is set as high as it will go and just hardly lays flat on the sheilf. I consider it non adjustable. I do, however have four different length launcher forks for it, changing the arrow from even with the rest hole, to bottom of arrow being even with top of berger hole.

Just from a good set of strings, and adjusting the bow until the stops hit evenly, IN MY HANDS, I shot my creep tune and didn't have much adjustment this time at all. Half a twist in each yoke leg.

Keep in mind the adjustments I speak of are only 'improvement' adjustments. Very small adjustments to fine tune the bow. My synchronization adjustments are usually smaller than one twist in the main body of a power cable. My limb bolt adjustments are small and on a parallel limb bow. Its not effecting tiller or how the bow holds, and if it is, its such a small amount I can't notice it, and I've developed a pretty sensitive feel lately.

For my nylon bulbs, I was concerned I would be indeed inducing varying amounts of cam lean while sliding these things around.. so I skated around that the best I could with the strings I built. The yoke legs are actually not the same length, so I can end up with the same twist in each yoke. Also got them twisted into a low twist, for smaller adjustments. Let me assure you, this was no easy task building a jig with floating posts to measure the old/tuned strings...then trying to match it with indifferent yoke leg lengths, as well as three colors in each yoke leg. It was also a challenge to stretch the whole string. I had to use a pulley and let each yoke leg even out. Through some thought, trial and error I managed my own string build and didn't have to pay the 260 dollars quoted to me. I believe I hit my mark perfectly with this idea, on the first try. Didn't turn out bad considering I'm a newbie.

Got the twist rate I wanted, three colors in each yoke leg and cams standing flat at full draw. Only cost me 100 for it instead of the 260 Winners choice quoted me.. and if I didn't like it, I still had half a mile of string to play with!

So, only after I creep tune and I've got the nylon bulb slid up say1" then now I know what to do when I press the bow.

Nocking point is started at 90 degrees and I'll just adjust limb bolts a little, while shooting a bareshaft to see if its nock high or low. If its very far off I'll tie a new dloop on and try again.
Adjusting your nocking point will change the amount of string above and below the nock point, your cam synchronization, and your loop to peep height. Its a lot of work to fix all of this and you end up messing with it for half a day chasing your tail. One adjustment you desire, not knowing it, you make several adjustments. The other adjustments take all day and you've lost where you were. I'd rather not move my peep, loop and change timing of the cams and the synchronization and anything else, when its as easy as turning a limb bolt slightly.
The nylon bulbs will work on a bow with only one Y cable. It will let you know something and you've got a 50/50 chance of it making it. better, or worse.
The good news is. ow you know what to adjust when you press the bow.

I've done nothing more than throw on the strings, made a small adjustment to one bulb, and was pounding the target at 100 yards. With more accuracy than I use to several months ago. Although I haven't done any real tuning, the arrow flight is pretty clean. There are lots of small adjustments to be made yet, to gain that quality arrow flight I am after.


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## [email protected] (Feb 17, 2013)

Here is a picture of my 'nylon bulbs' idea.
http://s1336.photobucket.com/user/h.../IMG_20140512_120505_413_zpsef0ef413.jpg.html

Its just some 1/32" nylon string I tie on with a series of knots on each side. It works by sliding it towards the cams and will pinch the yokes together, slightly shortening that cable. This is for fine tuning my cams and after I can't fine tune it any more, I add twist into the cable I had to use the bulb on, then remove the bulb. If you do a creep tune, every single time you adjust something, make sure to re adjust your 20 yard pin until you're hitting a skinny horizontal line again, and then you can trust your adjustments to your cables. When you get sighted in, you could move that bulb 1/2" and you will notice a change in your impact, just from a small synchronization adjustment.

Even with those strings I made I still get a small amount of can lean change if I slide them all the way up like this:

http://s1336.photobucket.com/user/h.../IMG_20140512_120411_393_zps8ac7c84d.jpg.html

That's a full five inches!! If I've had to move it much more than an inch, back in the press she goes and I add twist into that cable and start over again. Same thing goes for limb bolt adjustments.. if I've moved it much at all, new loop and another creep tune. 
I've even used this idea out past 100 yards for crazy small adjustments. But I've come to the same conclusion as some of the better archers and pros have.. if you do it right at 20 yards, you don't have much at all to adjust after that.

Small changes.. small adjustments guys. Even if it takes you five small adjustments it is better to go small. When I first took the controls of an airplane for the first time, within five seconds, my instructor was like 'Small corrections!' So I hear it in my head sometimes. 

Every one of these small adjustments and changes have made me better. More accurate. Dude there's not a paper plate safe within 100 yards anymore. I'm just about 90% with that after I set up the bow and tune it myself.

Now, I really am a beginner. I don't k ow a lot. But what I do know I want to share it with everyone and get your opinions on it. You may see something Ive missed or haven't thought of. And some people have contacted me with questions. Those questions make me think and I'll do what I can to answer them but my knowledge is limited to what I've experimented with and what I've read here on AT. Although, I must say... most every day I am on this web site studying tuning issues. Even issues with bows I don't own and will probably not ever shoot. A single cam for example.. don't own one and to make a string for it my jig has to be longer.. plus I just like twin cams and twin yokes.

Anyway, if anyone in interested in trying the bulbs for creep tuning, let me know. There's a video explaining how to tie them so they won't move.

Also, keep in mind not to pull your guts out while creep tuning. You're creating more string angle, lowering your peep excessively and probably going to get frustrated with this. Just remember, 3# more and that's plenty. You're trying to match your draw length inconsistencies from one shot to the next. A few pounds extra is plenty


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## [email protected] (Feb 17, 2013)

crazy4hunting said:


> I have a xpedition xcentric(hybrid cam). Long story I won't go into, but I had to start over from scratch. Bow is all in spec. Only ran it thru some paper. Bow is shooting just fine. Decided to try bare shaft at 20. Tried this three times with exact same results. Fletched is perfect of course, bs is impacting to the right about two inches, with the left nock result. Vertically both arrows are the same. So, it needs some twist in the yoke to correct this. Should I simply put a twist in left side, take one out of the right, or only do one side?
> 
> Second ? On my other bow, also hybrid, at 20 yards, it's just the opposite. Left and right are spot on, but bs is hitting 3" low with nock high. If I'm understanding this correctly, a slight adjustment to bottom limb bolt could be made, or is my info mixed up?



Yes sir, its worth a try.
I bareshaft tuned my second set of strings in three shots.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j2leY-l5wGk&feature=youtube_gdata_player

But do a creep tune FIRST. Even if the arrow is nock low or high a little bit, it shouldn't effect a creep tune. One bow I was creeping, was way nock high, and creep tune went fine. I'm not sure if this is universal with all cam systems or not.


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## [email protected] (Feb 17, 2013)

Also, if your center shot is good, a twist or half a twist would move your bareshaft left. Like on a car, if you put a small tire on one side and a big tire on the other side, the car will track towards the bigger tire slightly. All that is needed is a better balance between the two tires. 
So If your car has the same size tired and still tracks to one side, you could let air out of one side and you'll see it get worse or better. Same thing with yokes, a little adjustment will change it.

For my right and left, I start with cams standing flat, center shot down the center of the grip or two arrow trick. You can shorten or lengthen your draw length adjustment and watch a bare shaft jump right and left of fletched. I shortened mine 1/8" and nailed a small string with fletched and bare shafts without yokes or moving the rest. That just may have been instrumental in the last tune I did on it. May have been the key


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## [email protected] (Feb 17, 2013)

nuts&bolts said:


> Sooo,
> MULTIPLE ways to make the top axle take a break,
> and work LESS HARD.
> 
> ...



I was just trying to tell a fella this the other day. My explanation skills must need some work. I was flat out put on the spot over trying to help another guy. I admire your ability of explaining simple stuff for us guys that are hard to understand


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## jschins (Apr 1, 2010)

Tagged


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## ctownshooter (Jun 6, 2013)

????????? kind of confusing. may take me a while to figure all this out. but this is good information to know. most of it pertains to right handed shooters. i have to turn everything around so it works as a left hand shooter, which takes me a few minutes to understand. the printer's working overtime for sure. thanks to everyone for sharing.


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## DeAdEye15 (Sep 28, 2013)

Subscribed


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## [email protected] (Feb 17, 2013)

Art Wells said:


> I set up my new pro edge, with a blade rest. Set the blade per kitchen sink method. I sighted in at 20 yards. First bare shaft was within a inch of fletched. Same bare shaft , same result on the second shot. Third shot 5" low ,and nock high. I shot about ten times and it was on or it was 5" low. So I marked the arrow. One way it hit with the fletched arrow, flipped it and 5" low and nock high.
> I was going to rotate the nock, and see if it affected it at all but I ran out of time. Tomorrow I think I will strip the fletching from another arrow and try it again.


Hey brother.. I've mentioned I'm a beginner but from the sounds of it, your bow is kicking tail high, or your blade may be to stiff. I've never liked spring loaded rests because if you're nocked slightly low, it could still kick tail high from flipping off the rest. Here is a picture to add a visual.
http://s1336.photobucket.com/user/hartshot/media/DSCN1655_zps10db308f.jpg.html?sort=3&o=0

This was shot through a whisker biscuit rest. I had pretty clean nock travel using a d loop, and switched to a P loop for this shot. The drop right at the beginning of the power stroke does not appear to be caused from cam synchronization because a synchronization issue usually looks more like a long sideways 'S'.
This nock dropped initially for maybe 2 inches and traveled straight. 

I'm more interested in the nock path as it encounters the rest. The arrow was showing a tail high paper tear, yet the camera is showing a low nocking point. I dropped my rest slightly and it lined out nicely.

That's is backwards from conventional wisdom/ common advice. For a nock high you would usually raise your rest or lower your nocking point. A blade rest, or a spring loaded prong style rest has more spring in the upwards direction than the bristles of a whisker biscuit rest. 

So, again with my spill. That's why I advise people to give creep tuning a try. And during a few experiments I feel like my learning curve advanced a lot in a rather short period of time.

One day before this all 'clicked' with me, I had asked for help for a nock high bareshaft. It was pretty bad.. about 3" at 12 feet. I tried a few things, three different rests, adjusting my grip and draw length to every extreme. Then I pulled the bowstring off the bow and cut the serving off the bowstring around the lower cam.

I added several extra strands of bowstring and re served the bottom of the bowstring. This slightly increased the size of the serving around the bottom cam and made the lower cam pull string slightly faster. It did reduce the nock high a little.

Went to 30 yards and was getting 1"-1.5" groups fairly consistently. So I rotated nocks on one arrow and just watched the arrow closely. As I rotated the nocks I could see it would sometimes kick right and left depending where the nock was rotated.

And from that moment on, I had an Idea...

So what I'm saying is, what is happening in the picture could be happening to you. The fastest way for me, and probably the only thing I will ever do is creep tune first. It works with twin cams, and hybrids, and single cam bows.. after I feel like it can't be improved upon, bareshaft tune.


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## [email protected] (Feb 17, 2013)

That picture could have been the result of my release elbow being to high


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## OhioShedder (Nov 24, 2012)

My bare shafts hit with fletched arrows to about 10-15 yds. At 20 yd and beyond the bareshafts start to hit left of the fletched arrows and the nock of the bareshaft is noticeably right of the tip on impact. I vary my stance with no real change. I purposely try to torque left and they don't hit much more left of my normal shots. I purposely try to torque right and the bareshafts go waaaaay right. I can't seem to torque just a little right to get bare and fletched hitting together beyond 20 yd. Whats my next move? Any suggestion in form changes to try or should I start twisting cables to try to bring the bareshafts right?


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

OhioShedder said:


> My bare shafts hit with fletched arrows to about 10-15 yds. At 20 yd and beyond the bareshafts start to hit left of the fletched arrows and the nock of the bareshaft is noticeably right of the tip on impact. I vary my stance with no real change. I purposely try to torque left and they don't hit much more left of my normal shots. I purposely try to torque right and the bareshafts go waaaaay right. I can't seem to torque just a little right to get bare and fletched hitting together beyond 20 yd. Whats my next move? Any suggestion in form changes to try or should I start twisting cables to try to bring the bareshafts right?


IF you are right handed,
install a 2X longer or 3X longer d-loop.

MUST get your RIGHT elbow to swing around your shoulder,
like a door,
a FULL stretch across the chest,
so that your forearm ROTATES around your shoulder like a door hinge.

So,
forearm is pointing NORTHWEST with current d-loop.

Use your NORMAL grip.
Use your NORMAL shooting stance.

So,
with the 3X too long d-loop,
forearm will POINT northeast,
instead of north WEST.

Bareshafts will now fly and miss to the RIGHT.

This works IF YOU DON't have shoulder issues on the RELEASE side.

So,
with the TOO LONG d-loop
and you swinging your elbow AROUND your right shoulder,
like a door,
like a weather vane....


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

UNDO one d-loop knot,
cut off the melted ball..

pick at the end of the freshly cut d-loop cord,
make a new 1/4-inch diameter cotton ball..

melt, DO NOT BURN, the fibers,
and mash it down to form a new melted end of your d-loop.

Re-tie your new, slightly SHORTER d-loop
and ROTATE your release side forearm around your shoulder,
like a door,
like a weather vane.

Fire your bareshaft.

Bareshaft misses a little bit LESS to the right of your bullseye.

Repeat this process
to dial in your d-loop length,
always keeping a FULL stretch across the chest,
always swinging your release side forearm COMPLETELY around your shoulder,
at a comfortable amount of release side forearm rotation around your shoulder.



FIRST pic,
is 2nd Nature,
with forearm pointed NORTH WEST,
when front stabilizer and target are DUE NORTH.

Bareshafts miss to the LEFT.

NEW shooting posture,
and the forearm is now pointed MORE north east.

Work your d-loop length,
to change WHERE, and WHAT direction your forearm points.

ADJUST d-loop length,
then,
SWING your forearm around your shoulder, a COMFORTABLE, repeatable amount of angle rotation,
and then,
you will FIND your sweet spot
for d-loop length,
for forearm rotation around your shoulder...

IT's ALL alignment folks...

and you will get better results,
in your fletched arrow groups...MORE SKINNY left to right,
at ALL distances...

AFTER you tweak d-loop length
and forearm (release side) alignment.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

Your release side forearm is a LASER guidance system.

Your arrow is really no different than a missile.

So,
your missile,
your bareshaft,
goes where-ever YOU point your release side forearm.

The d-loop controls WHERE you point your forearm,
presuming...you get that FULL stretch across the chest
and a FULL rotation of your elbow around your shoulder.


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## OhioShedder (Nov 24, 2012)

That makes a lot of sense. Thanks for taking the time to post all that. Is there a scenario where you would yoke tune based on left/right bareshaft issues or is the solution to left/right misses mostly a form issue? I am a finger shooter so I guess I will have to play with draw length instead of the d loop changes. I will also play with the alignment of my release arm. I will say that my bareshaft groups are real tight at 20 yds even though way left of fletched arrows so I am at least consistent.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

OhioShedder said:


> That makes a lot of sense. Thanks for taking the time to post all that. Is there a scenario where you would yoke tune based on left/right bareshaft issues or is the solution to left/right misses mostly a form issue? I am a finger shooter so I guess I will have to play with draw length instead of the d loop changes. I will also play with the alignment of my release arm. I will say that my bareshaft groups are real tight at 20 yds even though way left of fletched arrows so I am at least consistent.


FINGER shooter,
then we are talking about archer's paradox.

So,
for FINGERS,
FINGERS recurve
or 
FINGERS compound...

MORE draw weight, for a RIGHT handed FINGERS shooter,
will move the bareshaft point of impact to the RIGHT.

LESS draw weight, for a RIGHT handed FINGERS shooter,
will move the bareshaft point of impact to the LEFT.

MORE point weight, for your arrow, for a RIGHT HANDED FINGERS shooter,
will move bareshaft point of impact to the RIGHT.

LESS point weight, for your arrow, for a RIGHT HANDED FINGERS shooter,
will move bareshaft point of impact to the LEFT.

HEAVIER WEIGHT on the BACK end of the arrow, 
like adding an arrow wrap
like using LONGER vanes, which WEIGH more

will make your arrow BEHAVE more stiff,
so for a RIGHT HANDED FINGERS shooter,
the bareshaft point of impact will move LEFT.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

OhioShedder said:


> That makes a lot of sense. Thanks for taking the time to post all that. Is there a scenario where you would yoke tune based on left/right bareshaft issues or is the solution to left/right misses mostly a form issue? I am a finger shooter so I guess I will have to play with draw length instead of the d loop changes. I will also play with the alignment of my release arm. I will say that my bareshaft groups are real tight at 20 yds even though way left of fletched arrows so I am at least consistent.


Tweak draw weight 
and arrow point weight,
until you can get bareshafts AND fletched,
to smack together.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

OhioShedder said:


> That makes a lot of sense. Thanks for taking the time to post all that. Is there a scenario where you would yoke tune based on left/right bareshaft issues or is the solution to left/right misses mostly a form issue? I am a finger shooter so I guess I will have to play with draw length instead of the d loop changes. I will also play with the alignment of my release arm. I will say that my bareshaft groups are real tight at 20 yds even though way left of fletched arrows so I am at least consistent.


For a FINGERS shooter,
start at 20 yards, to get fletched and bareshafts smacking together.

Fine tune your plunger,
IF you are using a plunger.

Plungers are VERY handy devices for a FINGERS shooter.

If you are using a Springy Rest,
then,
try different weight SPringy Rests,
until you get the SIDE pressure just right.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

OhioShedder said:


> That makes a lot of sense. Thanks for taking the time to post all that. Is there a scenario where you would yoke tune based on left/right bareshaft issues or is the solution to left/right misses mostly a form issue? I am a finger shooter so I guess I will have to play with draw length instead of the d loop changes. I will also play with the alignment of my release arm. I will say that my bareshaft groups are real tight at 20 yds even though way left of fletched arrows so I am at least consistent.


Then,
we have to look at your finger tab.

Cordovan leather gives a cleaner release,
and I get more arrow speed,
with a Cordovan tab,
versus a hair tab....arrows HIT higher.

Then,
we have to look at your "loose" technique,
your FINGERS release technique.

This is at the later stages of FINGERS shooter coaching.

WE have a deep hook hold,
versus the shallow hook hold.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

OhioShedder said:


> That makes a lot of sense. Thanks for taking the time to post all that. Is there a scenario where you would yoke tune based on left/right bareshaft issues or is the solution to left/right misses mostly a form issue? I am a finger shooter so I guess I will have to play with draw length instead of the d loop changes. I will also play with the alignment of my release arm. I will say that my bareshaft groups are real tight at 20 yds even though way left of fletched arrows so I am at least consistent.


LEAVE the yokes alone,
at 20 yards...

and work on POINT weight of the arrow (make it heavier)
and/or
work on draw weight...(make it HIGHER draw weight...if you can)
and the bareshaft point of impact will move MORE to the RIGHT.

Sooo,
even for a FINGERS shooter,
alignment is critical,
alignment of the FINGERS forearm.

I have a SIMPLE HUG THE WALL exercise.

Make a paracord loop that simulates your full draw position.

Now,
with just the paracord loop hooked around your bow hand,
and your 2 finger or 3 finger hold on the other end of the paracord loop..

walk towards any wall,
in your PRETEND full draw position,
and see if your ELBOW hits the wall FIRST.

If so,
make the paracord loop LONGER
and walk toward ANY WALL
and your JOB
is to have your bow hand TOUCH the wall,
is to have the ENTIRE paracord loop touch the wall
and
is to have the ENTIRE SIDE of your FINGERS forearm, touch the wall.

THIS is an INLINE forearm alignment.

The paracord loop is your PRETEND arrow.

Then,
your job is to find a NEW shooting posture,
where your FINGERS side forearm
ALL touches the wall, the SIDE of your entire forearm and the paracord loop, TOUCHING the wall.



ELBOW hits the WALL first,
if this fella tries my HUG THE WALL exercise.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

BEFORE and AFTER FINGERS shooter posture.


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## OhioShedder (Nov 24, 2012)

As usual you hit the nail on the head. I just put some washers behind my field point to add weight and it definitely brought the bareshaft back to the right. Now I need to find a better way to add about 10 grains to all my heads. I thought I had this all figured out last year....spent months bare shafting various spine, point weight, arrow length, etc. I just got a new string and cables put on my bow and assumed that the reason my bareshafts were no longer hitting with fletch was a cable issue....I should have gone back to the drawing board with arrow stiffness. 

For the record I'm shooting a 2013 PSE Freak Max at 60# and 29" draw length. I put a van handle death grip on it. Shooting gold tip velocity pro 340s at 30" long with 125 gr tip with 7" wrap and three 4" feathers. I shoot a NAP flipper and wish they made it with a plunger. I use a calf hair tab holding 1 finger above nock and 2 under. Thanks.


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## OhioShedder (Nov 24, 2012)

The washers I have are larger diameter than the arrow and are thick enough that they don't allow all threads to engage when screwing in heads. Any suggestions on thin, small diameter washers? I have 2 doz arrows with inserts permanently glued so using a heavier insert would require all new arrows. I have a lifetime supply of 125 gr broad heads and would really like to add to the weight instead of going to say 150 gr field pts and bh's. Thanks.


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## bowman72 (Jan 13, 2009)

Gold tip arrows have inserts you can add weight from nock end. Remove nock and screw on weights using special long wrench.


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## cenochs (May 2, 2007)

Marked !! Later


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## OhioShedder (Nov 24, 2012)

I thought the weight had to be at the point of the arrow to make it act weaker...maybe nock end has same effect?


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

OhioShedder said:


> I thought the weight had to be at the point of the arrow to make it act weaker...maybe nock end has same effect?


MORE weight on the front of arrow,
makes arrow behave WEAKER,
so for a RIGHT handed FINGERS shooter..

the bareshaft point of impact will move to your RIGHT.

LESS weight on the FRONT end of the arrow,
makes the arrow behave WEAKER
so for a RIGHT handed FINGERS shooter..

the bareshaft point of impact will move to your LEFT.

This is the BASICS of archer's paradox.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

OhioShedder said:


> I thought the weight had to be at the point of the arrow to make it act weaker...maybe nock end has same effect?


Weight at the BACK end of an arrow,
has the OPPOSITE effect.

Sooo,
for a FINGERS SHOOTER,
going from a Easton G-Nock
to...

a LIGHTED NOCK (read super duper HEAVY)..

this simple change,
will make the bareshaft arrow for a FINGERS SHOOTER,
make the arrow behave MUCH MUCH MUCH STIFFER,
so the HEAVY LIGHTED NOCK at the BACK END of your arrow..

will make a FINGERS SHOOTER...bareshaft arrow impact MORE TO YOUR LEFT,
if you are a RIGHT HANDED FINGERS shooter.


Sooo,
what happens if HALF your arrows, have no arrow wrap
and
what happens if HALF your arrows, HAVE AN ARROW WRAP.

It's just 8-grains. What can that do to you?

Well,
if SIX of your bareshafts have NO arrow wrap,
these bareshaft have LESS weight at the back end,
and these bareshafts will behave WEAKER...

so the point of impact for the BARESHAFT with no arrow wrap, will impact MORE TO YOUR RIGHT.

Well,
if SIX of your bareshafts have a 8 grain ARROW WRAP,
these bareshaft have MORE weight at the back end,
and these bareshafts will behave STIFFER...

so the point of impact for the BARESHAFTS with AN ARROW WRAP, will impact MORE TO YOUR LEFT.

Since you are a consistent FINGERS SHOOTER,
these are VERY VERY SIMPLE tests for you to do.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

OhioShedder said:


> As usual you hit the nail on the head. I just put some washers behind my field point to add weight and it definitely brought the bareshaft back to the right. Now I need to find a better way to add about 10 grains to all my heads. I thought I had this all figured out last year....spent months bare shafting various spine, point weight, arrow length, etc. I just got a new string and cables put on my bow and assumed that the reason my bareshafts were no longer hitting with fletch was a cable issue....I should have gone back to the drawing board with arrow stiffness.
> 
> For the record I'm shooting a 2013 PSE Freak Max at 60# and 29" draw length. I put a van handle death grip on it. Shooting gold tip velocity pro 340s at 30" long with 125 gr tip with 7" wrap and three 4" feathers. I shoot a NAP flipper and wish they made it with a plunger. I use a calf hair tab holding 1 finger above nock and 2 under. Thanks.


A cordovan tab will give you a bit more speed, a cleaner release.
This will move your bareshafts some to the right.

Some folks even put baby power on the cordovan tab, to make it even MORE slippery.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

OhioShedder said:


> The washers I have are larger diameter than the arrow and are thick enough that they don't allow all threads to engage when screwing in heads. Any suggestions on thin, small diameter washers? I have 2 doz arrows with inserts permanently glued so using a heavier insert would require all new arrows. I have a lifetime supply of 125 gr broad heads and would really like to add to the weight instead of going to say 150 gr field pts and bh's. Thanks.


if your inserts are not epoxied in...

then,
you can heat the field point,
and tug on the field point,
and the field point insert will come out.


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## OhioShedder (Nov 24, 2012)

If I need my arrow to act weaker then easiest changes would be to increase point weight or get rid of my wrap. All inserts are permanently glued on my current batch of arrows. I may need to look into one of those cordovan tabs. If my bareshaft testing gets best results with 17 grains of extra point weight and my fletching weighs 9 grains then should I only add 8 grains to my points on the fletched shaft? I'm thinking no...although the bare and fletched shaft would weigh the same, the extra weight is at the wrong end of the arrow on the fletched shaft. 


Thanks for the clarifications on weight at the rear...FYI there is one typo...less weight at front makes arrow stiffer, not weaker.


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## OhioShedder (Nov 24, 2012)

I just realized gold tips weights screw to the back of the insert ( not back of arrow) so they are effectively adding weight at point. Looks like that's the answer. Thanks for all the input.


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## bowman72 (Jan 13, 2009)

I was talking about adding weight to the insert at the front of the arrow- but you access it from the nock end with a long special wrench...made just for your situation when the arrow is already built.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

OhioShedder said:


> If I need my arrow to act weaker then easiest changes would be to increase point weight or get rid of my wrap. All inserts are permanently glued on my current batch of arrows. I may need to look into one of those cordovan tabs. If my bareshaft testing gets best results with 17 grains of extra point weight and my fletching weighs 9 grains then should I only add 8 grains to my points on the fletched shaft? I'm thinking no...although the bare and fletched shaft would weigh the same, the extra weight is at the wrong end of the arrow on the fletched shaft.
> 
> 
> Thanks for the clarifications on weight at the rear...FYI there is one typo...less weight at front makes arrow stiffer, not weaker.


NOT necessarily a one to one weight ratio.

Just general rules of thumb.
MORE weight in the front end,
will make arrow behave WEAKER,
so

for a RIGHT HANDED FINGERS shooter...bareshaft point of impact will move to the RIGHT.

For a RIGHT handed FINGERS shooter,
refletch your arrows...

kill the arrow wraps
try a shorter vane (less weight)

and this will also cause your arrows to behave WEAKER
and this will move bareshaft point of impact to YOUR RIGHT..

and your fletched arrow groups should TIGHTEN up.


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## Strodav (Apr 25, 2012)

Marked


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## Vik (Apr 8, 2014)

I would like to hear any opinions on the following scenario. Bow is RH Switchback XT.

I have been shooting a bareshaft occasionally during shooting practice as an added form/tuning check. The first time I shot it the nock was very high and very left with POI about 4-6" under and 3-4" right of fletched at 20 yards. So, I moved the nock down about 1/32-1/16" and the nock high was gone, but I couldn't get rid of the tail left, moved the rest way, way in and it was still there. So, I added a half turn off the left yoke and removed a half turn from the right yoke. Both moving the nock and the yoke adjustment brought my POI within an inch of my group and tail left went from 3-4" to 1-2". However, given the general advice of "straight edge on shelf side of idler should be 1/8-1/16 inch from the nock point", and that is how the bow was tuned at the moment, I hesitated to continue yoke adjustments to correct the remaining tail left. I assumed it was a grip or release or draw length issue. So, I continued to practice with fletched arrows for a day or so and then shot bareshaft again - and it was even worse. I moved my rest in again and tried to induce torque in my grip to make it move, to no avail. I went through and double checked all the bow measurements to make sure it was in spec. I found that the cam timing was off, starting over rotated just slightly. So, I took a half turn off the bow string, and shot bareshaft again. Tail left was almost completely gone, maybe 1/2" tail left remained.

So, again I shot fletched for a couple hours at the range and then shot bareshaft at the end of the session - tail left was back again. Double checked cam timing - it was off again! Apparently my string set was not fully settled in yet - they are vapor trail strings with probably 200-250 shots, which I would think would be enough. But, nonetheless, I took another half twist off the bow string and it put the cam in perfect position. Shot again from 20 yards, bingo.










Both arrows are slightly above the ring because I moved my peep and haven't readjusted my sight tape yet. But none the less, I am pretty happy with things as they stand now.

All that to say - I haven't come across any information stating that cam timing on a single cam can induce nock L or R bareshaft flight. I have read that cam timing was suggested as a culprit for nock high/low, but not left right. So, while I believe that it was indeed my cam timing as the cause - I have certainly believed falsehoods to be true in the past. Any one else experience this before?

Cheers!


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

Had a fella come see me at Lancaster Archery, when I was there for my seminar.
I was there a day early, on a Friday.

He fired his fletched into the bullseye at 20 yards,
but his BARESHAFT was missing to the RIGHT by 6-INCHES....call it TAIL LEFT, call if POINT of impact missing right, 6-inches.

Right handed shooter.

Sooo,
he is shooting a binary, no yoke cable bow.

He wanted to know how to FIX HIS BOW.
I said, nothing wrong with your bow.

WE need to fix YOU, the shooter.
Just lean FORWARDS.

He said, "I cannot FEEL that I am leaning BACKWARDS".

I say, YUP, I hear that a lot.

PRetend that someone grabs your right belt loop and pulls the top of your jeans 2-3 INCHES away from the target.

Your two armpits will automatically move CLOSER to the target.

BINGO.

BARESHAFT nails the x-ring, 20 yards away.

LEANING backwards, makes the RIGHT handed shooter forearm, point NORTH EAST, 
resulting in a TAIL LEFT bareshaft...resulting in a bareshaft point of impact missing INCHES TO THE RIGHT.

LEAN forwards,
no changes to the bow,
the bareshaft point of impact moves 6-INCHES to the LEFT.

WHY?

Cuz,
when you lean FORWARDS,
this completely change the direction of the elbow (RIGHT SIDE, for right handed shooter)
this completely changes where the direction of your forearm points (RIGHT SIDE, for right handed shooter)

cuz the FOREARM POINTING direction (release side forearm)
controls if you have ZERO sideways pull on the bowstring

or
controls is your FOREARM pulls the bowstring SIDEWAYS, RESULTING in LEFT-RIGHT bareshaft POINT of impact, bareshaft arrow flight.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

Put up a sheet of paper,
with a sharpie pen cross hair....VERTICAL line and horizontal line for aiming purposes.

Now,
fire a single bareshaft.

Hang up your bow.
PULL out the bareshaft.

Back to the 20 yard shooting line.
FIRE a bareshaft.
Hang up your bow.
PULL out the bareshaft.

REPEAT for 10 shots
and see how CONSISTENT YOU are...for bareshaft point of impact.

NO changes to your bow.

THIS will show you the effect of how CONSISTENT YOUR SHOOTING POSTURE IS..

and the left or right misses.

WORK on posture,
LEANING Backwards,
LEANING forwards...

to tune out your LEFT-RIGHT bareshaft misses.

*When you MASTER how much to LEAN FORWARDS...

your FLETCHED arrow groups will be MUCH TIGHTER
at ALL distances.*


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## Vik (Apr 8, 2014)

Hi Alan,

I've read this story before about the guy who only needed to lean forward more to correct bareshaft flight and I have been spending time on the range experimenting with my hip, torso, shoulder positioning because of it.

However, the inquiry I posted above was simply if any one else has experienced cam timing as the cause of a bareshaft hitting nock left or right. I have only been shooting for a month, and I know my form is not as consistent as it needs to be - however, I am first trying to get my bow as close to tuned as possible so that I can start tweaking my form and seeing real results. When I was getting the persistent nock left bareshaft results, I tried changing my grip, changing my stance, leaning forward, leaning backward, intentionally inducing torque in my grip, changing the angle of my release arm, etc... but nothing I did changed the fact that my bareshaft was nock left every time. EXCEPT when I re-timed the cam, then if there was any nock left remaining it was quite small.

At this point, after seeing this happen 2 times - i.e. nock left is persistent - get cam timing back on and nock left goes away - I am pretty convinced that it was indeed the culprit. But, given my inexperience I was wondering if anyone here has either experienced it, or can give me a reason why it can't possibly be the case.

I will start a new thread soon with form pictures to hopefully get some help on that as well, but for now any info you or anyone else may have regarding the above question would be appreciated.

Thanks much


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

Single cam bow.

YOu adjusted the string shorter, cuz the string was stretching
and the cam starting rotation position was changing.

So,
when you shortened the bowstring, a HALF twist,
this corrected your bareshaft point of impact
and the bareshaft was now 90 degrees to the face of the target.

So,
your REAL question...
does shortening the bowstring,
affect bareshaft point of impact..

does shortening the bowstring
affect/change a "TAIL LEFT" bareshaft skidding through the air
to cleaner bareshaft arrow flight....reduce or eliminate sideways bareshaft arrow flight?

Yes.


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## Vik (Apr 8, 2014)

nuts&bolts said:


> Single cam bow.
> 
> YOu adjusted the string shorter, cuz the string was stretching
> and the cam starting rotation position was changing.
> ...


Thank you for the response and for clarifying my inquiry. However, I lengthened the bow string by half a twist - cam was slightly over rotated at rest, removed half twist from bottom of bow string to get cam in alignment. 

Given your answer to the above, I am slightly concerned since your reply indicates shortening the bow string could help correct nock left. If the opposite is true - lengthening the bow string should move nock further left - then color me confused!

Thanks again for the speedy reply.


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## Ob1.25 (Sep 5, 2010)

Ob1.25 said:


> Bareshaft point high /nock low at 20 yards, left/right ok,very tight bareshaft group.
> 
> Alphaelite fuel cams,50-60lbs, spot hogg edge rest, .008 blade at around 30 degrees,
> 29.5 inch module, bomar draw stop in 29 in. position,68% let off, bottom cam a hair behind top cam.
> ...


Hmmm.. Something just hit me. I shoot a torqueless dloop, so it will be quite lower than a normal dloop. Moving dloop down will create more leverage on bottom limbs. Maybe this is causing the nock low/point high concern?

Been having a hard time pulling pin up to the target spot also, pulling on that bottom limb, pulling pin down..
Took an ounce off the 30in front bar and added 8 to the back 14in bar didn't see a huge change.

I backed bottom limb bolt out 1 turn and it got better. Gonna tinker some more this weekend.

My wife always tells me "the enemy of good is better" when I'm tinkering.


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## [email protected] (Feb 17, 2013)

Ob1.25 said:


> Hmmm.. Something just hit me. I shoot a torqueless dloop, so it will be quite lower than a normal dloop. Moving dloop down will create more leverage on bottom limbs. Maybe this is causing the nock low/point high concern?
> 
> I backed bottom limb bolt out 1 turn and it got better. Gonna tinker some more this weekend.



Well sir, a d loop or a P loop with the whole loop under the arrow?

If you take a twin cam with a normal d loop and replace the d loop with a P loop or shoot off the string under the arrow, yes you'll get nock low. Ive run that experiment myself


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## [email protected] (Feb 17, 2013)

Ob1.25 said:


> Hmmm.. Something just hit me. I shoot a torqueless dloop, so it will be quite lower than a normal dloop. Moving dloop down will create more leverage on bottom limbs. Maybe this is causing the nock low/point high concern?
> 
> I backed bottom limb bolt out 1 turn and it got better. Gonna tinker some more this weekend.


This was the first thing I learned on AT. I couldnt get rid of a nock high and Alan sent me some pointers saying to retie my D with both knots under the nock and instantly got nock low. I was so happy it wasn't nock high I shot that way for a while..lol.

It did change the nock travel during the shot as well.. it dropped initially for maybe the first 2" or so of the shot and followed a near perfect path out of the bow. I recorded it with a digital camera and a lighter nock..


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## [email protected] (Feb 17, 2013)

Vik said:


> Hi Alan,
> 
> I've read this story before about the guy who only needed to lean forward more to correct bareshaft flight and I have been spending time on the range experimenting with my hip, torso, shoulder positioning because of it.
> 
> ...



A few pages back I posted a video of bareshaft tuning a bow in three shots. I've since developed a theory about something I saw in my video. I had already crept tuned my bow extremely well and I began playing with my limb bolts slightly... I had a very slight nock high flight.. so I was trying to fine tune the nock slightly lower and went a little to far. When I did, I noticed I picked up nock left and my shaft landed right.

I think what happened was, I went to far, and it was rubbing or skipping on my QAD fork before it had time to fall. That's possibly what's happening to you

Edit: I'm sure this could happen with a blade rest or a whisker rest or a prong or just about any fall away on the market.

Another hunch I have is if you shot a pretty stiff shaft and your normal shaft both at the same spot from 50-60 yards or more, your stiff shaft would land left of your other shafts. I'm no expert, and I don't bet, but that's probably what would happen to you as it did to me.
A lot of guys smarter than I say spine doesn't play right or left with a release shot compound bow.. that got me wondering....

I shot 29" .340 and got nock low.. a 27" .340 came out tail high.. I believe the stiff shaft was telling the truth and the weaker shaft was flexing and recovering from the flex as it left the bow, thus a low nock. This told me I had up and down nock travel...
So with different spines landing left and right, I probably also had left and right nock travel issues.
I guess the thing for me to try would have been adjusting my yokes a bit to see if that would bring different spines closer together... and if it did, I would have to micro adjust my rest to get bare shafts flying straight again


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## Ob1.25 (Sep 5, 2010)

[email protected] said:


> Well sir, a d loop or a P loop with the whole loop under the arrow?
> 
> If you take a twin cam with a normal d loop and replace the d loop with a P loop or shoot off the string under the arrow, yes you'll get nock low. Ive run that experiment myself


yes the loop is under the arrow. Its on a alphaelite with the cam and a half system.


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## [email protected] (Feb 17, 2013)

Ob1.25 said:


> yes the loop is under the arrow. Its on a alphaelite with the cam and a half system.


Creep tune first, then fire a bare shaft to find nocking point. If you move your loop, creep tune again. Once your creep tune is good, fire a. bareshaft.. it will tell you if you're nocking point is off.
Without a creep tune, in my opinion, adjusting the nocking point is wasted time. Its gotta have good nock travel.
Would you believe this bow will fire a bareshaft bullet hole through paper at 20 yards in this condition???!!??


[img=http://www4.picturepush.com/photo/a/13394622/640/Anonymous/DSCN1638.jpg]




If you adjust the nocking point, and leave the cam synchronization the way it is, you can.

However, its tricky.


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## killerloop (Mar 16, 2008)

[email protected] said:


> Creep tune first, then fire a bare shaft to find nocking point. If you move your loop, creep tune again. Once your creep tune is good, fire a. bareshaft.. it will tell you if you're nocking point is off.
> Without a creep tune, in my opinion, adjusting the nocking point is wasted time. Its gotta have good nock travel.
> Would you believe this bow will fire a bareshaft bullet hole through paper at 20 yards in this condition???!!??
> 
> ...


I enjoy your posts. But my comment to your question aski g if one can believe a bullet hike at 20 yards. .. I must add. I'm not an expert on yardage but that's no 20 yards.


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## [email protected] (Feb 17, 2013)

killerloop said:


> I enjoy your posts. But my comment to your question aski g if one can believe a bullet hike at 20 yards. .. I must add. I'm not an expert on yardage but that's no 20 yards.



Lol, no sir, not twenty yards. My question was do you believe it is possible to get a bareshaft bullet hole at 20 yards,' in this condition '
This might have been 15 feet. Pardon the mess, several grand worth of computer parts, spare clothes, model airplanes, tools and junk I didn't have space for at the time. I'm really asking myself why I was shooting towards all that stuff ?!?

Anyway, as hard as it is to believe from seeing all that flex, and cam UN synchronization, it really is possible. That picture is about as extreme of an example as I feel safe doing with a 72# bow...

I've just ordered some Easton Injexion from OnTarget, spine indexed and fletched. Going to try and get to the field soon to see how they work for me. But first, just to make sure my nock travel is perfect, I'll use this idea again. Will post some pictures when I'm done.


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## wv hoyt man (Feb 17, 2012)

Marked for later.


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## [email protected] (Feb 17, 2013)

Got my arrows and ran into a situation I've never heard of before. Grouping OK, but I had a slight nock low. I backed off the top limb slightly, and shot another group from 40 yards. My group landed lower, as suspected but it also moved to the right around five inches to the center of my group.

Best 25 yard group



And best 40 of the day, 6 inches low, 5-6" right of point of aim just after the limb bolt adjustment.


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## [email protected] (Feb 17, 2013)

I was centered around a spot repeatedly, then limb bolt adjustments brought in down and right. I am getting fletching contact, and didn't realize it until after this group. I am using a QAD LD, and I lowered my pull cord down about an inch. It seems to have helped. Due to the curved shelf on my PSE, I'm thinking about trying a new rest. I just have to have the arrow so high to get the fork to lay down flat, my arrow sits above the berger hole. Thinking of a blade but I'll just have to look around and see.
Bareshaft flies straight, but the fletched wasn't consistent enough for me to trust it. I might go back to half sized blazers to see if it helps


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## [email protected] (Feb 17, 2013)

The more I wonder about it, the more I question if I'm getting horizontal nock travel. In one of my experiments I showed I could produce a bareshaft bullet hole with cam synchronization being out of whack, just from slightly adjusting my nocking point. So it makes me wonder if the same thing could be happening on the horizontal plane. I guess I've got tons to learn yet


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## coatimundi01 (Oct 18, 2013)

Is this just moving the rest left/right? I'm assuming moving left to straighten out the nock left? The two bares hit slightly nock low as well, but barely. Keep in mind the one on the right was aimed over there. They're hitting where I aim, just way nock left...


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

coatimundi01 said:


> Is this just moving the rest left/right? I'm assuming moving left to straighten out the nock left? The two bares hit slightly nock low as well, but barely. Keep in mind the one on the right was aimed over there. They're hitting where I aim, just way nock left...


*LEave arrow rest alone*.

LEAN forwards 1-inch.
Move hips/top of jeans, away from the target 
(pretend to have someone GRAB your right hand belt loop and PULL 1-2 inches away from target).


When you have someone PULL the top of your jeans 1-2 inches AWAY from the target,
your two armpits will AUTOMATICALLY move CLOSER to the target.

Aim normally,
and the bareshafts will straighten out.


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## coatimundi01 (Oct 18, 2013)

Straightened out a bit but still nock left. I just rechecked for rest contact and there is none. I may have to re test centershot


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## coatimundi01 (Oct 18, 2013)

Centershot came up good with mod French tuning. Now I'm stumped.

Spine issue?
Would rest up/down have any bearing on bareshaft tail left/right?


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

coatimundi01 said:


> Centershot came up good with mod French tuning. Now I'm stumped.
> 
> Spine issue?
> Would rest up/down have any bearing on bareshaft tail left/right?


Bow hand grip.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

Grip your bow normally.

Have masking tape run UP to the arrow shelf.
Mark the centerline.

Mark your hand, with a match mark (bic pen).



This gives you a consistent position to PLACE your bow hand.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

Bareshafts are flying NOCK LEFT,
which means Bareshafts are flying NORTH EAST...

if your front stab is pointed DUE NORTH.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

Soo,
your bareshafts are SKIDDING sideways, TAIL LEFT through the air.


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## coatimundi01 (Oct 18, 2013)

Correct.

I've been trying different grips to see if it's me. Would cam lean cause this also? As in right to left nock travel as the arrow is still on the string?


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

Must RE-POINT...

must RE-DIRECT your bow hand thumb
to point MORE north WEST.

Sooo,
mark on the back of your BOW HAND...
move the MARK on the back of your bow hand to the RIGHT of the masking tape centerline mark..

3 THOUSANDTHS of an inch,
the THICKNESS of a sheet of paper.

Bow hand SPINS COUNTER-CLOCKWISE around your grip of your bow...

so there is 0.003-inches of separation between your bow hand MARK...which is now 0.003-inches to the RIGHT
of your masking tape centerline mark.

REPEAT this COUNTER-CLOCKWISE re-positioning 
of your bow hand.

Think of your bow hand THUMB as the NOSE of an F-16 fighter jet,
that just landed on the aircraft carrier.

You need to park your jet, into the parking space on the left side of the flight deck.

The NOSE of the jet must make a FLAT LEFT turn....this is what you are doing with your bow hand THUMB,
*making a FLAT left turn...by 0.003-inches...thickness of a sheet of paper.*


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

coatimundi01 said:


> Correct.
> 
> I've been trying different grips to see if it's me. Would cam lean cause this also? As in right to left nock travel as the arrow is still on the string?


There are HUNDREDS of things that cause a bareshaft to fly TAIL LEFT or TAIL RIGHT.

I was at Lancaster Archery, a day early, for my seminar.

Sooo, a fella heard that nuts&bolts was downstairs in the shooting center.

He came down,
and fire a group of fletched arrows.

Smacked the 20 yard bullseye.

Binary, no yoke cam bow.

*He fires a bareshaft, and it misses 6-INCHES to the right...so, NOCK is TAIL LEFT in the Block Wall, 20 yards away.*


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

Lancaster Archery built me SIX tuning stations for my seminar.

Fella wanted to know how to FIX HIS BOW.

I said, nothing wrong with your bow.
Just LEAN forwards 3-INCHES.
Move the top of your jeans, away from the target, 2-3 INCHES.
Pretend someone grabs your right hand belt loop, and pulls the TOP of your jeans 2-3 INCHES away from the target wall.

Bareshaft slams into the x-ring, 20 yards away.
TAIL left bareshaft flight problem is gone.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

coatimundi01 said:


> Correct.
> 
> I've been trying different grips to see if it's me. Would cam lean cause this also? As in right to left nock travel as the arrow is still on the string?


Pull down on the top axle,
LEFT side yoke leg loop..

try ADDING 1/2- twist.

This will help clean up the TAIL LEFT bareshaft skidding.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

coatimundi01 said:


> Correct.
> 
> I've been trying different grips to see if it's me. Would cam lean cause this also? As in right to left nock travel as the arrow is still on the string?


Lean forwards.
This will help clean up the TAIL left bareshaft skidding.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

coatimundi01 said:


> Correct.
> 
> I've been trying different grips to see if it's me. Would cam lean cause this also? As in right to left nock travel as the arrow is still on the string?


MORE relaxed bow hand thumb muscle (thenar eminence).
Cushy as a goose down pillow.
Spin the bow hand thumb to point several THOUSANDTHS of an inch, more counter-clockwise, more NORTHwest.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

coatimundi01 said:


> Correct.
> 
> I've been trying different grips to see if it's me. Would cam lean cause this also? As in right to left nock travel as the arrow is still on the string?


If you are right handed,
reduce draw length by 1/16th inch,
to ROTATE your release forearm, from 7-o'clock to 6-o'clock (I'm in a helicopter with a video cam pointed straight down on your head).


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

coatimundi01 said:


> Correct.
> 
> I've been trying different grips to see if it's me. Would cam lean cause this also? As in right to left nock travel as the arrow is still on the string?


Adjust your stance,
CLOSER to a neutral stance..

to increase your TOTAL spread distance (TOTAL spread distance = pivot point of grip.....to the TIP of your release elbow).

These are just off the TOP of my head,
with no freeze frame video work analysis....which is what I typically do,
for my online students.


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## coatimundi01 (Oct 18, 2013)

I'll try these things. I don't have a press so the left yoke twist is gonna have to wait.

I'll try the grip stuff and the forearm adjustments.


I already have my feet very close and stand straight thanks to your other posts. So right now I'm just weeding out the causes.


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## coatimundi01 (Oct 18, 2013)

Thanks for your help N&B


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

coatimundi01 said:


> Thanks for your help N&B


If you do not have a past parallel limb tip bow,
the $20 DIY Pipe Clamp Press works just fine.


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## coatimundi01 (Oct 18, 2013)

Ok, I looked at the yoke and considering that the right one if twisted a lot and the left one literally only has like one full twist. I think this may be my culprit. The thing is there isn't much lean in my cam at brace but I have no idea what it's doing at draw. I'll head to the shop tomorrow to even out the yokes and start bareshafting again...


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## bullsi (Jan 18, 2006)

marked


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## [email protected] (Feb 17, 2013)

Alan knows his stuff


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

[email protected] said:


> Alan knows his stuff


Nice shooting.

Keep going...asking questions...experimenting...discovering what works for YOU.


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## [email protected] (Feb 17, 2013)

Turns out its working very well with these injexions, even if they are just a little more expensive.

People, invest in quality arrows. Period.


How do I get rid of this massive tear? Lol


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

[email protected] said:


> Turns out its working very well with these injexions, even if they are just a little more expensive.
> 
> People, invest in quality arrows. Period.
> 
> ...


Shoot a shoulder height target at 30 yards.
Pin a FRESH sheet of cardboard to your target. 
Two fletched arrows. Take a photo. Pull out the fletched arrows.

Now,
you have just two holes in the sheet of cardboard. Label the TWO holes, with "F".
Now, fire two bareshafts. Take a photo.


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## [email protected] (Feb 17, 2013)

I just got my new cable rod in the mail today, threw it on and had a small left tear compared to the home made rod I e been using. Checked my creep tune, and flung some arrows 


30 yards, 2 fletched, 3 bare

Couldn't understand what's going on so I checked my 20



Shot another 30, 2 fletched, 1 bare.. looks like it hit one of the previous bareshaft holes, but I could be mistaken



Shot a 45, all fletched. Worried of missing the Target, I didn't fire a bare shaft from 45 yards. I lack a back stop




Shot another group after this one and it was around 3" group. Sort of unpleased with it until I reminded myself, anything under five inches is a fairly respectable group at 45 yards, and plenty good enough to kill a deer. 

It appears I need to adjust my cam sync a little and shorten my draw length about 1/4".

Alan, I'll have you know, that 45 yard group is your fault. I moved my hips backwards a few inches, like someone was pulling on my belt loop, and leaned forwards a bit, stretching my arm out straighter. The one arrow outside the group, I don't know what happened. Not face contact, and Ive spent so long getting my torque indicator set, and check it every shot. I don't think I'm torqueing a whole lot, and it is pretty consistent. 
Weather or not my hand is setting exactly the same in the grip is another story. 

I do appreciate all your help buddy! 16-18 months ago, I was pulling 30.5", leaning backwards and struggling to keep 20 shots on a paper plate at 55 yards.


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## [email protected] (Feb 17, 2013)

OK, I have a theory on this. I've been messing with my grip as far as high and low pressure. Not a lot, just small amounts. I haven't got it dialed in yet, but these are carbon injexions, a pretty good arrow. The fella said he spine indexed them as well, so unless I spend a lot of coin, I don't think I'll get a better arrow. He also said, on a few of the shafts, the Ram spine tester didn't move.
So what am I getting at? Those arrows are way more arrucate, than a shooter of my abilities can appreciate. Being spine indexed, I can trust the bareshaft completely. When I make an adjustment according to what the BS is doing, I am sure I am doing something right. Before, all I've wondered... is, am I at fault, or is this because of spine index being off, or is the wind blowing in china?
I think the up and down wrist play, and my inconsistencies are just something I will have to continue to work on.

Without that flyer in the 45 yard group, that's a 1.25" group guys. We all have good days and bad, some killer groups and some, you run to the target as fast as you can to pull them out, trying to spare ourselves the embarrassment.

What I see is a can synchronization issue, and a nocking point issue covering the vertical nock travel in a way where it will come out nearly straight. I also think as I slightly raise or lower my wrist, I'm getting accidental, in wanted, and unacceptable left and right torque.
I really would like to invest in a quality stabilizer, instead of a 15 dollar rubber thing that just happens to look cool because its the same color as my bow.

That's my opinion, what's yours? I'm asking everyone here, pros and beginners. I learn just as much from people who know next to nothing at all about archery as I do from those who've invested a large portion of their time, money, and efforts into this sport. Seriously, thanks for your help. I want to be a good archer, so bad... I can tell you what it tastes like.


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## ZuluWhiskeyFox (Apr 7, 2014)

[email protected] said:


> OK, I have a theory on this. I've been messing with my grip as far as high and low pressure. Not a lot, just small amounts. I haven't got it dialed in yet, but these are carbon injexions, a pretty good arrow. The fella said he spine indexed them as well, so unless I spend a lot of coin, I don't think I'll get a better arrow. He also said, on a few of the shafts, the Ram spine tester didn't move.
> So what am I getting at? Those arrows are way more arrucate, than a shooter of my abilities can appreciate. Being spine indexed, I can trust the bareshaft completely. When I make an adjustment according to what the BS is doing, I am sure I am doing something right. Before, all I've wondered... is, am I at fault, or is this because of spine index being off, or is the wind blowing in china?
> I think the up and down wrist play, and my inconsistencies are just something I will have to continue to work on.
> 
> ...


Just a thought. Try numbering your arrows. In an effort to see if that flyer is always the same arrow.


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## [email protected] (Feb 17, 2013)

ZuluWhiskeyFox said:


> Just a thought. Try numbering your arrows. In an effort to see if that flyer is always the same arrow.


It appears to be the first shot, usually landing higher than the rest. Its pilot error. I have given up on it but did manage to get my 30 bs straightened out fairly well. I might give it another try this evening. 
I think I understand the idea behind the drill. A fletched is forgiving and a bare shaft is not. A fletched hold is just a marker, and each single be hole is an indicator of what I'm doing wrong, correct?

The idea seems to be to fire one bare and see what happens, hang the bow up and pull the arrow and repeat. Each time, its allowed you to have some rest, and allowed you to reset. The pattern of holes ought to shot what mistakes you make from freshly picking up the bow.

I will give the 30 yard test a try. As with everything, distance will magnify any mistakes.

In billiards, I've got a formula for 'throw' or how much friction will effect a ball when the cue ball hits an object ball. About the most you compensate for on your average bar table is 5degrees.
5 degrees at five feet equals five inches.
But with bows and arrows its a little different. 30 yards is over 1,000 inches. One inch groups at 30 yards is excellent by just about anyone's standards. Serious accuracy if you really think about it


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## coatimundi01 (Oct 18, 2013)

New prolines, a little tuning, and I almost robin hooded an Axis with a bareshaft... I shot it again off to the side since when it hit the nock it impacted crooked. Shot it in a spot on its own, and it's almost IDENTICAL to the fletched at 15 yards. It's a good feeling!
It probably would've stuck in if I had regular field points and not the fat billet points for use with the adapter rings.


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## Elvis_Is_Dead (Nov 25, 2009)

^^^ Good job. Looks like you nailed it.


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## cfinn (Jun 1, 2013)

tag for later


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## deer slayer 11 (Nov 22, 2012)

So I have been working on the old kitchen sink / creep / bare shaft tunning. I shot 3 bare and 1 fletched arrow at 20 yds. So how do I straighten my bare shafts? Rest, yokes, hand torque?


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## jab73 (Jan 22, 2013)

deer slayer 11 said:


> View attachment 1990121
> So I have been working on the old kitchen sink / creep / bare shaft tunning. I shot 3 bare and 1 fletched arrow at 20 yds. So how do I straighten my bare shafts? Rest, yokes, hand torque?


If your center shot is good , I would give the right yokes 1/2 or a full twist and see what that does..


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## deer slayer 11 (Nov 22, 2012)

Awesome. I'll play with it this weekend. Thanks!


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## Harley D (Feb 27, 2004)

Tagged


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## limpwrist (Oct 17, 2013)

Cut my arrows one inch shorter, extreme nock high suddenly...

Thought I'd share, I was puzzled


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

I was tuning a 2nd Gen Maitland Zeus, for the DVD.
The bow was purchased used from the ArcheryTalk Classifieds.
29-inch DL module. Custom strings from the seller. Other than that, bone stock.

So,
this is the group I shot, after sighting in at 20 yards.





3 shots.
Stone Cold.

This is the baseline.

*Let's call this STEP 1.*

Target sight.
Scope.
Only a front stabilizer...no side rod. Very basic setup.

Limbdriver Micro Elite drop away arrow rest.

Kinda like what any new target shooter setup would look like.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

So,
I goto the draw board
and check for ZERO cam lean at full draw.

Yup,
need to tweak the yoke legs to get to ZERO lean, while at full draw.

DONE.

Then,
I check the arrow rest sideways position.

Yup, the arrow was not pointed in the same direction as the front stabilizer.
Sooo, I move the arrow rest sideways, until the arrow and the front stabilizer BOTH look like they are pointed DEAD straight ahead.

Checked the arrow rest height (arm in the FULL up position)
and confirmed that the middle of the arrow tube
and the middle of the arrow rest mounting bolt were both at the same height.

DONE.

Then,
confirmed that the d-loop position,
was installed so that the arrow and the front stabilizer were both horizontal,
at the same time.

DONE.

*Let's call this STEP 2.*


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

So,
now I do my own 2 yard shooting school.

I step up to the target wall (indoor range...but it was empty at the time)
and at roughly 2 yards,
I aim at the RIGHT edge of the target face,
to check sight windage.



I tuned the sight windage,
until I got THIS result.

*Let's call this STEP 3.*


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

So,
still at the 2 yard shooting line....about 2 yards away from the target wall...

I switch over to a bareshaft.

This is my ROUGH draw length test.

Here is what I got.



Did it again,
to double check the ROUGH draw length test result.




So,
this means that my CURRENT draw length setting
on the used 2nd Gen Maitland ZEUS bows,
with the 29-inch DL modules

that I am within 1/4-inch of my PERFECT DL setting.

*Let's call this STEP 4.*


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

Sooo,
I step back to 20 yards,
and fire a bareshaft.

*(Let's call this STEP 5).*

Here is what I got.



WHOAAA.

Bareshaft is missing nearly 12-inches LEFT????

I am a right handed shooter.

BUT,
I got fairly DECENT fletched arrow groups.




BUT,
at 2 yards...a FLETCHED arrow
and a BARESHAFT arrow were pretty close.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

What does it mean,
when a RIGHT handed shooter fires a bareshaft 
at 20 yards....

and the bareshaft misses WAY WAY WAY LEFT?

It means,
that we are within 1/4-inch of the PERFECT DL setting,
but,
we are not there yet.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

But, 
wait a minute.

A 2nd Gen Maitland Archery Zeus bow,
with the Discontinued VTR cam system,

with Maitland Archery no longer around...

Parts are not available.

Whaddya mean that the DL is within 1/4-inch of PERFECT.

Draw length modules only come in HALF inch sizes
and...besides....the bow is out of production,
and the company does not exist anymore.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

Well,
we now step into FRANKENSTEIN bow territory.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

Right handed shooter passes my 2 yard shooting school 
(fletched and bareshaft arrows are hitting near the exact same point of impact....left to right).

So,
the bareshaft is missing nearly 12-inches LEFT of fletched arrows,
when firing at 20 yards.

So,
this means the draw length needs to go LONGER.

No,
not the yoke cables.

We need to tweak DRAW LENGTH,
we need to GROW the draw length setting a little bit LONGER.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

IF we boost the brace height,
we also boost the draw length....cuz power stroke does not change.

*So,
I ADDED 5 twists to the bottom of the buss cable.*

This made the brace height GROW.
The side effect is that the draw weight also became too heavy for me,
so I removed 1 full turn off the limb bolts.

NET effect, the brace height is still LONGER than before,
which means,
the draw length is also LONGER than before.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

ANYTIME you add twists to the buss cable (*SHORTEN BUSS CABLE*),

in this case, we are boosting the brace height, ON PURPOSE...

then,
you also need to *shorten the control cable*.

Sooo,
I GUESS-TI-MATED that 4-ish extra TWISTS would be about correct....for *SHORTENING THE CONTROL CABLE.*


1) removed 1 turn off both limb bolts..to get draw weight back to about where we started
2) ADDED 5 twists to the bottom of the buss cable....for the purpose of GROWING brace height, which also GROWS draw length setting on the bow
3) ADDED about 4-ish twists to the control cable, to get the cam sync back to where we started...roughly.

4) also moved the arrow rest a TINY BIT to the RIGHT...to help out the bareshaft..cuz it was missing WAY WAY WAY LEFT...maybe 1/32nd inch.

*Let's call this STEP 6.*


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

THIS is what happened next.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

Sooo,
I started with THIS.



*Now,
with ZERO yoke tuning...*

I am now getting this...



at 20 yards.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

Sooo,
if you are grouping THIS TIGHT at 20 yards...

do not move your arrow rest. Only work the sight windage (pins or scope) to move the TIGHT arrow group to 12-o'clock high.

Then, move your pins UP a tiny amount
or move your scope UP a tiny amount...

to get THIS result.



*Let's call this STEP 7.*


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

*Started with THIS.*




*Bareshafts at 2 yards.*






*Bareshaft at 20 yards...(for a right handed shooter)...pretty LARGE miss to the LEFT of the fletched arrows.*




*FINISHED with THIS.*




All of this with ZERO YOKE TUNING,
shooting at 20 yards.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

ZERO lean at full draw.

TWeaked the draw length in the SLIGHTLY LONGER direction,
to fix a LARGE bareshaft missing to the LEFT of fletched arrows...fired at 20 yards.

Work on your form.
Work on custom tuning your bow, to fit YOU.

How do you know when you have CUSTOM TUNED your draw length,
so YOUR bow fires at MAXIMUM accuracy, when YOU fire YOUR BOW, in YOUR hands?

When your groups go from THIS SIZE....



to THIS SIZE....



or to THIS SIZE...




Work on your FORM,
work on tuning the bow Draw Length
shorter or longer...

*until you get the RESULTS that make YOU happy.*


I explain further in the DVD,
the hows and whys to my methods.

This is with a target bow,
a target sight,
the VaporTrail Limb Driver micro elite drop away arrow rest
with a front stabilizer.

NOTE...I did not use my SIDE stabilizer.
I did ZERO stabilizer tuning, to get these results. I took my FRONT stab off my DST40, and slapped it onto the Maitland Zeus.

IF,
I had put on my SIDE stabilizer
and custom tuned the FOC for the bow stabilizer system..(front heaviness)
and
custom tuned a TWO-WAY adjustable side mount...
then,
I would have *gotten TIGHTER results.*

*I wanted to simulate a beginning target bow setup.*


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

Shooting a bareshaft is a tuning tool
that tells you a story.

When you interpret the story,
when you learn how to use the bareshaft tuning tool...(it gives you HINTS about what to do next)...

you can get AMAZING results.


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## superdean00 (Jul 23, 2008)

tagged


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## limpwrist (Oct 17, 2013)

Nuts and bolts

A pleasure as always


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## Larkinhjr (Oct 6, 2013)

I am actually little over half a week into my week custom coaching with nuts&bolts. My first step was really bad form and he addressed my form issue. I had my release hand to high on ear and nose touching string. I thought that was what I was suppose to do that's what I was always told, heard. Buts nuts&bolts informed me on a small ATA bow mine is below 30 you cannot have your nose on string and have good form. So he lowered my release hand. I had alot of trouble making this adjustment. After we fixed that I went thru a series of shooting test with nuts&bolts and also did the exact same tuning he did with his maitland. This was the first shot I took but from 10 yards instead of 20.








So basically the exact same result nuts&bolts had. So he had me add 6 twist to my buzz cable but it still wasn't making the bareshaft come over. So he said make sure your form and your grip are the same on every shot so I taped my grip drew a line on tape and hand to make sure they were always on the money. I ended up adding 2 more buzz twist but it really didn't make a change to my bareshaft maybe a little but now my bareshaft was 5 inchs High so I added 6 twist to control to bring my bareshaft down to fletched. Shot another set of arrows and had about the same result as my 1st set of arrows me adjusting the control brought the bareshaft down so I was like good deal but I still had bareshaft left. So since I knew if I add twist to buzz I will have to add twist to control also because when you add twist to buzz it raises your bareshaft. 
Every adjustment I made to the buzz I made a adjustment to control.
I ended up adding 4 more twist to buzz and 3 more to control moved back to 20 yards then got this result








In the pic you can see my bareshaft is higher than fletched and also my fletched are close but I basically have a fletched (flyer) so I left my buzz alone I thought it was good. So I added 1 more twist to control and got this result








My fletched are defiantly tighter and now my bareshaft is even tighter. So I left everything alone. maybe could have added a 1/2 twist more to control but I txt that picture to nuts&bolts and he told me to shoot 10 fletched at 10 yards and put them in the same hole keep on adjusting control/buzz till you have them in the same hole well I shot 10 then I shot 2 more and this is my result I needed no more adjustments from 10 yards.








I was ecstatic. 
I ran out of daylight so I will update more tommorrow. All I have to do now is adjust pins. Then I'll try the 1 arrow test from 20 and see how close I can get. I am very happy and excited!!


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

Very well done.
Nice shooting.


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## marshall1 (Feb 4, 2011)

Saved


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## dad2sixmonkeys (Jun 26, 2011)

Tagfes


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## [email protected] (Feb 17, 2013)

limpwrist said:


> Cut my arrows one inch shorter, extreme nock high suddenly...
> 
> Thought I'd share, I was puzzled


Slight can sync issue I would assume. The shorter, stiffer arrows are showing nock high. I've noticed this several times.


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## limpwrist (Oct 17, 2013)

[email protected] said:


> Slight can sync issue I would assume. The shorter, stiffer arrows are showing nock high. I've noticed this several times.


Even talking a single cam bow?


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## [email protected] (Feb 17, 2013)

limpwrist said:


> Even talking a single cam bow?


Yeah, you still have synchronization issues with a single cam, but you have to work on static timing of the cam. I know a single can is basically two cams together, but you can still have roller coaster nock travel


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## limpwrist (Oct 17, 2013)

So, being that ask I did was cut the arrow shorter, I'm assuming I would have to do nothing more than add/subtract small amount of twist in cable.

Bow was stacking Fletched and BS together dead level at 20 yards


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## [email protected] (Feb 17, 2013)

limpwrist said:


> So, being that ask I did was cut the arrow shorter, I'm assuming I would have to do nothing more than add/subtract small amount of twist in cable.
> 
> Bow was stacking Fletched and BS together dead level at 20 yards


A creep tune should tell you if it is indeed a problem with the static rotation of the cam or not. Its strange what happens during the millisecond a bow is shot. Many entire books of info happen in a split second. I have read a lot and still am just beginning to understand a small amount of it. The thing that might throw your creep tune is a drop away with to much tension on the cable.
I've heard some have better success with tiller tuning a single.
Its hard to say with any certainty, so its just a guess truthfully. I'd say if your spine is very close to perfect, a bare shaft tune is ideal.. once spine is overly stiff, I've noticed with my own bows, that a nock high tune yields the best groups. I've theorized its because an overly stiff shaft is given a little extra flex and helps recover from mistakes in my release.


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## SpotShy (Mar 14, 2005)

This thread is a wealth of information. I would just like to get some clarification of a few things so as to maybe help others while I help me, if there is any help for me...LOL Okay let me pose a scenario kind of like the OP did when he started this thread. 

Lets say you are a right hand shooter with a single cam system. You have done the exercises and now you are at the 20 yard line. You have adjusted sight windage and now have a nice looking group in the center of the bull. Actually a "pretty" tight but not perfect tight group. So you fire the bare shaft and it hits 4" dead left. I know from my recent education from this thread and from talking to Nuts&Bolts personally that if form is good, then we have a slightly short total spread issue. If the shaft was 12" left we would be growing the brace height by twisting the buss, then twisting the long side & short side of the long string to reset cam starting position in order to increase draw length and get our elbow more South. But at 4" should we increase drawlength or work on d-loop length?

I know personally my biggest issue over the last few years is shooting a bow with a total spread that was too short. I have really been working to keep the elbow and line. So I was not surprised to see my bare shaft land left of the fletched group. I started out with the 12" left now I'm at 4" left. I got plenty of room to adjust the drawlength longer and I am sure if I "go fish" I can find the solution but I ran out of daylight last evening and I thought I might ask to save a little time. Again I understand that I may need to work on form as well but I really feel the bow needs a tweak. In a nut shell I guess what I am asking is when can a guy determine when he has a draw length issue or a d-loop issue from paper tuning results. 

I can't wait to get back home and do some more 30 - 1 arrow shooting. I have a target that need a hole in it!

Thanks,

Spot Shy


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## jab73 (Jan 22, 2013)

Is the center shot correct? Cam lean at full draw? If form and grip are good . a twist of the yoke may be next.


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## DEESHAW (Feb 5, 2008)

NB in post 55 you stated moving d-loop up or down you change the sync of cam(binary) that is not possible the cables hold the cams in sync not the string d-loop placement has no effect on binary sync


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

DEESHAW said:


> NB in post 55 you stated moving d-loop up or down you change the sync of cam(binary) that is not possible the cables hold the cams in sync not the string d-loop placement has no effect on binary sync


To clarify.

IF on a binary cam bow,
you move the d-loop 10-inches ABOVE level,
you are going to LOAD the top axle very heavy
and 
you are going to LOAD the bottom axle very light..

even though the cams show the SAME number of dots.

Moving the d-loop 10-INCHES above "level" will wreak havoc on vertical nock travel...on a binary cam bow.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

DEESHAW said:


> NB in post 55 you stated moving d-loop up or down you change the sync of cam(binary) that is not possible the cables hold the cams in sync not the string d-loop placement has no effect on binary sync


Sooo,
I say all the way back in Posts #55,
set your d-loop on your binary cam bow,
or any bow for that matter...

and then leave your d-loop alone,
leave it in place,
where ever you put it...cuz you need a constant,
when you tune a bow...

you need ONE thing that does not change,
so you do not end up chasing your own tail.


Sooo,
for binary cam bows,
I teach folks to TAKE the bow OUT OF SYNC...ON PURPOSE.

Yup,
I have folks with binary cam bows,
take ONE CABLE,
and make it LONGER or SHORTER than the OTHER cable ON PURPOSE...

to take the bow OUT OF SPEC
to take the bow OUT OF SYNC...ON PURPOSE...

and we tweak that ONE cable half a twist LONGER
or
we tweak that ONE cable half a twist SHORTER....ON PURPOSE

until get get the ABSOLUTE tightest groups.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

DEESHAW said:


> NB in post 55 you stated moving d-loop up or down you change the sync of cam(binary) that is not possible the cables hold the cams in sync not the string d-loop placement has no effect on binary sync


I was at the Bowhunting Super Show in Columbus Ohio, earlier this year.

I was teaching folks how to tune their bows, no charge.

So,
had one fella, with a binary cam, no yoke bow.

I had him shoot a fletched arrow at a target, 2 yards away.
He punched a hole.
I had him pull out the arrow.

So,
then I had him fire a BARESHAFT arrow.

BARESHAFT arrow was CLOSE, but did NOT hit the same hole as the fletched arrow hole.

So,
I asked him if he would like to improve his accuracy.

He said, SURE.

So,
I had him TAKE his bow OUT OF SPEC, ON PURPOSE.

ONly required a half twist
LONGER or SHORTER on ONE of his two cables.

BANG.

The bareshaft smacked the SAME hole, as fletched.

Soooo,
we took him out to 4 yards.

Fired a fletched arrow.
Then, he fired a BARESHAFT arrow.

BANG.

SAme hole performance.

Soooo,
I challenged him to DRILL a tunnel through my BRAND SPANKING new target.

He fired that bareshaft into that SAME hole, for HOURS and HOURS
until he drilled a tunnel ALL The way through the 18-inch target
and smacked the plywood panel behind the target.

He went home
and CONTINUED to practice with his OUT OF SPEC bow....
where ONE cable is a SKOSH LONGER than the other cable...

where his binary cams are NOT OUT OF SYNC...
cuz ONE CABLE is LONGER than the OTHER CABLE....

HERE is what he did at 22 YARDS.



TUNE for results...
cuz for MOST folks....cams in PERFECT SYNC...does NOT always means the ABSOLUTE TIGHTEST groups.

AT least for this ONE shooter,
ONE cable 1/2 twist LONGER or SHORTER than the OTHER cable...
gave this shooter BETTER results.


Sooo,
Post #55 is trying to teach general principles.

Take the bow OUT of SYNC,
if you have to,
and try things
to get the RESULTS you want....which means, TIGHTER groups.


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## SpotShy (Mar 14, 2005)

"Is the center shot correct? Cam lean at full draw? If form and grip are good . a twist of the yoke may be next."
Thanks for the response but this would be counter intuitive to all that I have learned this far and the progress I have made. Remember, No Yoke tuning at these distances?

All that was set before tuning. The only thing I moved in the process was a smidge to the d-loop to make a gross adjustment in nock travel. Then a tweak to the buss to get it really good. I somehow over looked Larkinhjr's post above. I got basically what he had so I will go back to growing the brace height until I get the bare shaft to cove visit the group of fletched. Once I get it as good as it gets I think I may ask to hire certain fellow out of Cali to help me get some shooter flaws corrected.


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## DEESHAW (Feb 5, 2008)

nuts&bolts said:


> I was at the Bowhunting Super Show in Columbus Ohio, earlier this year.
> 
> I was teaching folks how to tune their bows, no charge.
> 
> ...


 not what I was questioning at all. Moving D-loop WLL NOT take bow out of sync is what I was talking about, draw board says so


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## jab73 (Jan 22, 2013)

SpotShy said:


> "Is the center shot correct? Cam lean at full draw? If form and grip are good . a twist of the yoke may be next."
> Thanks for the response but this would be counter intuitive to all that I have learned this far and the progress I have made. Remember, No Yoke tuning at these distances?
> 
> All that was set before tuning. The only thing I moved in the process was a smidge to the d-loop to make a gross adjustment in nock travel. Then a tweak to the buss to get it really good. I somehow over looked Larkinhjr's post above. I got basically what he had so I will go back to growing the brace height until I get the bare shaft to cove visit the group of fletched. Once I get it as good as it gets I think I may ask to hire certain fellow out of Cali to help me get some shooter flaws corrected.


Try to push your bow arm towards the target as you use back tension to fire the shot. See if this helps your left bareshaft misses.


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## Govtrapper (Mar 24, 2012)

20 yards tonight. Nuts an bolts thank you for all your help I read an reread this thread.


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## mwntnmuleys (Jan 19, 2014)

Tag


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

Govtrapper said:


> 20 yards tonight. Nuts an bolts thank you for all your help I read an reread this thread.


EXCELLENT shooting.
NICE work.

YOu are very welcome.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

DEESHAW said:


> not what I was questioning at all. Moving D-loop WLL NOT take bow out of sync is what I was talking about, draw board says so


GREAT.
Bow is in sync.

Most shooters are looking to shoot TIGHTER groups.
For some folks,
loading the UPPER HALF of the bow MORE
or
LOADING the upper half of the bow LESS...

helps them shooter better groups.

So,
shooters come to me,
and their bow is IN SYNC.

They want to shoot better, tighter groups.

I tell them,
to leave the d-loop alone
and let's see what happens if we take the bow OUT OF SYNC, by a half twist.
or maybe OUT of SYNC...by a full twist...make ONE cable (LONGER or SHORTER)....on PURPOSE.

If you make a binary cam bow,
if you make ONE of the cables LONGER or SHORTER on a binary cam bow,
then,
you will DEFINITELY take the bow OUT OF SYNC...on purpose.

WHAT happens,
when you take ANY bow OUT OF SYNC,
even a binary cam no yoke cable bow, OUT OF SYNC?

You load ONE half of the bow HARDER,
when ONE cable is half a twist LONGER
when ONE cable is a full twist LONGER
when ONE cable is half a twist SHORTER
when ONE cable is a full twist SHORTER.

The binary cam, no yoke cable bows are VERY VERY Sensitive to tiny changes in the cable length,
when you make ONE cable a little bit LONGER or SHORTER.

To make the bow OUT OF SYNC, on purpose.

They shoot better.

That's what we all want, RIGHT?

Soooo,
if you are happy with your groups,
when your cables are exactly the same length,
and your binary cam bow, with no yoke cables are in PERFECT SYNC...

that's all that matters.

If you want to find out what happens,
if you make ONE cable a little bit longer or shorter...

this will take your bow OUT OF SPEC,
this will UN SYNC your bow...

and you just MIGHT make your groups smaller.


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## crazy4hunting (Feb 4, 2006)

Govtrapper said:


> 20 yards tonight. Nuts an bolts thank you for all your help I read an reread this thread.


We are all very lucky to have the help of N&B's. [emoji106]


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## OhioShedder (Nov 24, 2012)

After 6 months of tuning and effort I finally thought I had my setup perfected with fletched, bareshaft, and broadheads all hitting same POI. I bought a new batch of shafts (Gold Tip Velocity Pros) and cut them to same length, squared ends, installed components all same as previous shafts. With my previous arrows, I was installing 50-60 gr of additional insert weigth to get the bareshafts to hit correctly so I did the same with these new arrows. I then proceed to shoot the bareshafts and these new arrows are waaay off my fletched POI. Most of them are way right and two of them are a bit left. I assumed it was just me, so I tested them for several days and no change. I numbered the new shafts and each individual generally hits the same wrong spot each time. My old shafts group just fine. I removed all the insert weights from the new shafts and started over again. What I found is that I needed to install anywhere from zero to 70 gr of insert weight on individual shafts to correct the left/right flyers. I litterally have shafts from the same batch with no weight, 10 gr, 20 gr.....up to 70 gr. extra weigth to get them to hit center of target. Surprisingly I dont see much vertical difference with them until I get beyond about 25-30 yds due to the extra weight. Can this be right or is this indicative of a bad batch of arrows or a tuning problem?


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## [email protected] (Feb 17, 2013)

OhioShedder said:


> After 6 months of tuning and effort I finally thought I had my setup perfected with fletched, bareshaft, and broadheads all hitting same POI. I bought a new batch of shafts (Gold Tip Velocity Pros) and cut them to same length, squared ends, installed components all same as previous shafts. With my previous arrows, I was installing 50-60 gr of additional insert weigth to get the bareshafts to hit correctly so I did the same with these new arrows. I then proceed to shoot the bareshafts and these new arrows are waaay off my fletched POI. Most of them are way right and two of them are a bit left. I assumed it was just me, so I tested them for several days and no change. I numbered the new shafts and each individual generally hits the same wrong spot each time. My old shafts group just fine. I removed all the insert weights from the new shafts and started over again. What I found is that I needed to install anywhere from zero to 70 gr of insert weight on individual shafts to correct the left/right flyers. I litterally have shafts from the same batch with no weight, 10 gr, 20 gr.....up to 70 gr. extra weigth to get them to hit center of target. Surprisingly I dont see much vertical difference with them until I get beyond about 25-30 yds due to the extra weight. Can this be right or is this indicative of a bad batch of arrows or a tuning problem?


Not a tuning issue. Most likely a bad batch of arrows. I have an idea. Put the weight back with all the new shafts and lay them to the side for a bit. OK, get you a fresh sheet of cardboard and pin it up on your target and put a small black dot, say the size of a marble in the center. Using your old arrows, shoot them all 4-5 times at this dot from say..30 yards. If you're in fear of busting an arrow you can shoot one at a time, but the idea is aim small, miss small... and to create a hole in the cardboard where all your old arrows land.

After you have you a nice hole or small pattern, put your old arrows aside and grab the new. With your new arrows, begin rotating nocks to see if you can bring your new arrows to match the same point if impact as the hole from your old arrows. I've been able to have some success with this in the past but it can be a long process. It is much easier to work on one arrow at a time

With having to add weight to them to get them to group, is perfectly fine if you only plan on using them for short range but at 50-60 yards, you will notice a lot of drop with 70 extra grains.. 

Just out of curiosity, by adding 70 grains to your arrows, which way did it move, left or right? Also are you right handed?


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## [email protected] (Feb 17, 2013)

jab73 said:


> Try to push your bow arm towards the target as you use back tension to fire the shot. See if this helps your left bareshaft misses.


Boy howdy, that's an interesting statement, and completely wrong. Yes it will. For that matter, there's a microscopit change in limb load and cam synchronization change, just from the center of pressure differences between your draw board, and when you hold the bow. Its a small change, but it is there. So moving the loop makes a small change but it is there as well. You're talking to a guy that has spend hundreds of hours experimenting with a bow.. you might not like him, but I assure you he is right


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## OhioShedder (Nov 24, 2012)

I am right handed. Rotating nocks didnt help..they all still hit right. By reducing insert weight I was able to move them left. Som arrows only took minor weight change to move others took alot. Thanks.


[email protected] said:


> Not a tuning issue. Most likely a bad batch of arrows. I have an idea. Put the weight back with all the new shafts and lay them to the side for a bit. OK, get you a fresh sheet of cardboard and pin it up on your target and put a small black dot, say the size of a marble in the center. Using your old arrows, shoot them all 4-5 times at this dot from say..30 yards. If you're in fear of busting an arrow you can shoot one at a time, but the idea is aim small, miss small... and to create a hole in the cardboard where all your old arrows land.
> 
> After you have you a nice hole or small pattern, put your old arrows aside and grab the new. With your new arrows, begin rotating nocks to see if you can bring your new arrows to match the same point if impact as the hole from your old arrows. I've been able to have some success with this in the past but it can be a long process. It is much easier to work on one arrow at a time
> 
> ...


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## Ruttin BUX (Aug 13, 2008)

marked


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## [email protected] (Feb 17, 2013)

[email protected] said:


> Boy howdy, that's an interesting statement, and completely wrong. Yes it will. For that matter, there's a microscopit change in limb load and cam synchronization change, just from the center of pressure differences between your draw board, and when you hold the bow. Its a small change, but it is there. So moving the loop makes a small change but it is there as well. You're talking to a guy that has spend hundreds of hours experimenting with a bow.. you might not like him, but I assure you he is right


Sorry, misquoted wrong person


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## [email protected] (Feb 17, 2013)

OhioShedder said:


> I am right handed. Rotating nocks didnt help..they all still hit right. By reducing insert weight I was able to move them left. Som arrows only took minor weight change to move others took alot. Thanks.


Sorry bud, I was sure it would've helped.. but then again, I saw a group of kids trying to use crazy glue to patch a hole in their tire, and they too, was sure it would work.


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## Mbmadness (May 19, 2009)

Marking this thread


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## Z-Rocket (Jan 11, 2009)

Tag for later


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## Ruttin BUX (Aug 13, 2008)

tagged


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## buckman2591 (Feb 6, 2011)

Bare shaft is almost 45 degrees to target. What would that mean


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## 918hoytman918 (Jan 20, 2012)

I have a question for you guys. Can the weight from your side bar cause torque on the shot? I was doing some tuning last night and was getting bullet holes at 3' and 10'. This was done without my stabs on my bow. Then I put my stabs on and rechecked and now I'm getting a right tear. I was using 3 different arrows and was getting the same results before and after.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

918hoytman918 said:


> I have a question for you guys. Can the weight from your side bar cause torque on the shot? I was doing some tuning last night and was getting bullet holes at 3' and 10'. This was done without my stabs on my bow. Then I put my stabs on and rechecked and now I'm getting a right tear. I was using 3 different arrows and was getting the same results before and after.


Yup.
DESIGNED to do that.
Use it to your advantage.


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## 918hoytman918 (Jan 20, 2012)

nuts&bolts said:


> Yup.
> DESIGNED to do that.
> Use it to your advantage.


So just tune the bow with my stabs on?


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

Online custom coaching.

www.nutsandboltsarchery.com

Student of mine.
Stabilizers ON.

This is the BEFORE photo.



So,
AFTER change #1...with STABilizer's ON.



So,
AFTER change #2...with STABilizers on.



right handed shooter.

So,
AFTER change #3...with stabilizers on.


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## Reddy (Nov 5, 2013)

Tag


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## bojangles808 (Sep 5, 2013)

Tag


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## BuckshutrJR (Feb 21, 2011)

Tagged


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## campergf23 (Apr 28, 2014)

Tag


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## [email protected] (Feb 17, 2013)

I was wrong about almost all of it. Forgive me


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## jumptruck (Feb 21, 2008)

Tag


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## 6APPEAL (Sep 1, 2009)

Tagged


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## conquest428 (Nov 26, 2014)

Tagged


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