# Switching from a trigger release to a back tension hinge



## buckshotiii

Guys,
I hope this is the right sub-forum for this topic as it is directly related to target shooting and equipment issues. Here is the deal: I recently switched from a Scott Silverhorn to a Scott Longhorn Pro. (I really like the Silverhorn but wanted to try a bt hinge) I followed Padgett's articles on setup and firing engines and feel very comfortable with the hinge release. I focused on keeping everything consistent, i.e. grip, stance, visualization, draw sequence, etc. However, and here is my issue, after doing the blank bale and what not to get comfortable with the hinge, when I started shooting at an actual target, my point of impact moved 5-6" to the right and 5-6" down from where it was when using the trigger style release. 

I can say this with certainty because I did not move the sights and shot over a dozen 3 arrow groups. No flyers or anything like that. In fact, my groups went from being like 2-3" to literally all arrows touching in nearly every group (at 20 yards). Obviously, I am very happy with the new consistency but that is just shooting in my back yard (so I have not bought any plane tickets for Vegas...yet  ). With a 2 year old and a 3 month old, I only get to shoot for about an hour once a week, so 2-3" groups is something I can live with (although not exceptional given the quality of archers on this site).

My bows are a 2011 Hoyt VE+ at 28" with a d loop which is about 5/8 to 3/4 inch long shooting Easton acc 3-39, 100 grain tips at 29" long, and a 2011 Hoyt Contender Elite with the same draw length and d loop setup shooting Easton Fatboy 400, 100 grain tips at 29" long. I am 6' tall and weigh 185. My anchor point is ever so slightly different between the two releases because of how my hand grips the releases, i.e. hinge I hold deep in my hand while the trigger I would fire with the second pad of my index finger, but I feel comfortable and my draw arm is in line with the arrow when at anchor.

Ultimately, I am happy with the new consistency and have now moved my sights to be spot on, but I was wondering if anyone has an explanation? I do not believe/never felt like I was torqueing the string or bow with the trigger, but maybe I was? Anyone have a similar result?

Joe


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## AT_X_HUNTER

it's most likely the change in anchor point and how you are looking through the peep. It's difficult for most people to shoot two hand held releases with the same sight settings.


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## CarlV

This happens often and is not in the least bit unusual.

I have a shooting friend who often is in the top three of the state, to say he is a very good shot. He switches back and forth between his thumb release and his hinge pretty often. His impacts are different and he knows just how far to shift his scope. If I remember correctly, it's 2" left and 1 or 2" high when he goes from his hinge to his thumb release.


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## buckshotiii

Thanks for the quick responses. At least there is some comfort in knowing it is not uncommon to happen.


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## bigHUN

I have four releases the same brand same model (in my signature) same dimensions, same anchor, only difference is the sensitivity, one is "faster" one is "harder" one is "longer stroke"...and all these have a slight offset in POI @ long range shooting....


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## buckshotiii

This is interesting. You read about guys switching between releases but no one seems to say anything about POI changing. I would think that is something very important to keep in mind, from a back up standpoint, when competing.


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## SonnyThomas

Opinion; Belongs in General Discussion....


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## buckshotiii

SonnyThomas, I tried to make sure this topic was appropriate, but if it is not, the Moderator can move it. However, per the Moderator's rules:
What target archery is:
Questions relating to COMPETITIVE target archery
...
Equipment only as how it relates to competitive archery shooting. i.e. Converting from a hinge to a trigger when shooting in the wind. NOT "whats a better release brand X or brand z?" "What is a good set-up for field and 3-D" NOT "what brand of arrows do you like?"

I believe discussing why point of impact changes when switching between different types of releases commonly used by target archers is an appropriate topic for this subforum. Additionally, I believe discussing what can be done to avoid such issues is likewise appropriate given equipment setup and tuning issues may be involved. 

I am no expert and can tell you have far more experience than I given your post count, perhaps you can add to the discussion.

Joe


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## montigre

buckshotiii said:


> I believe discussing why point of impact changes when switching between different types of releases commonly used by target archers is an appropriate topic for this subforum. Additionally, I believe discussing what can be done to avoid such issues is likewise appropriate given equipment setup and tuning issues may be involved. Joe


Joe, please do not take offense. This is a very basic question and likely something that would not be discussed here. Everyone who shoots with more than one release already knows that when you change your anchor, as you usually do when switching releases, you also change you POI. It is through practice that you learn to determine how to compensate (add or subtract clicks or play the bubble) for that change.


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## AT_X_HUNTER

I think this is an appropriate thread. Don't want to limit ourselves too much or else this forum will be as dry as most of the other subs.

I believe the reason POI changes for some and not for others is the way the release is actuated. Personally, I can shoot my Scott backspin, Long horn, and Exxus (which is a thumb trigger) with the same POI. I can not with a wrist release. I've found that the way I set off my release is very important and small changes can affect my shot even with the same release at 20 yards. For example: I set off my hinge by allowing my hand to stretch with emphasis on my index finger. If I get a little tight and rotate the release my POI shifts to the Right. It's subtle at 20 yards, but at 50 or 70 Meters I'm dropping points.

George Ryals made a short video with Last Chance Archery talking about release technique and he mentions being able to shoot a hinge or button release with the same sight settings. He calls his videos "Thing a week". Check it out, it's a good clip.


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## buckshotiii

Montigre, no offense taken and I did not mean to take a shot at SonnyThomas. I just felt it necessary to show him I did do the appropriate due diligence to see if my topic belonged here. I don't want to waste anyone's time, but this site is loaded with great shooters and I figured this would be a great place to ask the question.

Montigre, your response is a perfect answer and easily understandable (i.e., makes sense). I posted the question because no one ever mentions that happening when switching releases. I am not certain if this "target archery" subforum is supposed to be more for high level/expert archers to discuss topics or if it is intended to invite less experienced archers to post questions about topics so they can get help from the experts. Does that make sense? 

At X Hunter, thank you for the comments. 

Joe


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## montigre

Joe, It will probably evolve into something that is a little of both.... 

The less experienced archers need to learn that sometimes it is much better to read through the posts to gain knowledge and ask appropriate questions within that post and not post a bunch of willy nilly threads about what type of equipment someone uses, or how to tie in a peep sight.... 

The more experienced archers need to remember what it was like starting out and assist when possible to help bridge the gap and bring the newbies along. 

Both groups need to learn which posts are appropriate here and which would be better answered in one of the other forums. 

It's an evolving entity that will go through some growing pains every now and again, but the eventual outcome is very promising. :wink:


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## buckshotiii

Agreed. I promise you I have read a thousands of your posts, nuts and bolts, viper1, etc. and have learned a ton! You are great and I appreciate your willingness to share the knowledge.


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## cschwanz

Good thread topic. I switched to a hinge release and had some issues with arrows hitting high shortly after. Wasn't sure if it was because i was dropping my arm on the shot with the old thumb trigger release and now i wasn't or if it was truly a POI shift with a new release mechanism and slightly new anchor. I made some grip adjustments to finish out my league and now I want to seriously look into it as ive been slapping my forearm a lot more the past couple weeks. I truly think that the POI shifted with the new hinge. Im going to retune my bow with new arrows anyway for this season (its a hunting bow I use for targets right now) so the sight will get adjusted too. need to find the perfect grip io want then set it up right.


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## cbrunson

I think this can be a very appropriate topic for this forum. If you are gripping the riser the same and you see the same picture through the peep (housing centered ), using different releases should have the same POI if the string isn’t pulled to one side or the other upon release. I have experimented with this using hinges and buttons. If you roll the hinge to fire it, you will move POI. If the motion is straight back, or as mentioned above, consistent firing motion between the different releases, you can get the same POI. There may still be some slight difference due to the way the string comes off the release, but I have been able to adjust angles and tension on the releases to get them very close. 

This same idea comes into play when you start shooting one day and for some reason you are hitting left consistently without changing anything. You may be pulling away from your face as you fire not realizing it, or thinking you are anchoring the same as always, but you aren’t. It’s usually not a big deal if it’s a half inch off. (At 20 yds) You’ll see guys on the line turning a couple clicks here and there quite often. But several inches is a whole different story. That seems to involve the sight picture changing as well. If not, I would suspect some aggressive motion in the firing process that you didn’t have with the other release.


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## Mestang99

I am with Sonny and Montigre don't see the connection to this forum... 

You changed releases, you changed your anchor. Any small changes at the rear of the arrow translate to big changes at the front and POI...

I personally have my rigs set to be able to bounce from hinge, thumb, and wrist strap as needed with no real change in POI. You just need to set your nock point, draw length and repeatable anchor to allow for this. It is also important to realize the release style makes a difference as far as neck length and other fit issues are concerned.


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## buckshotiii

Mestang, can you please elaborate on this statement:
"I personally have my rigs set to be able to bounce from hinge, thumb, and wrist strap as needed with no real change in POI. You just need to set your nock point, draw length and repeatable anchor to allow for this. It is also important to realize the release style makes a difference as far as neck length and other fit issues are concerned."

Because if you are doing this (changing releases without any change in POI), it appears you have solved an issue which several other very experienced people who have posted on this topic acknowledge happens. So, please explain so we can all know how to avoid this problem. Specifically, how can you set up the same bow to work with multiple releases if each release has a different neck length and other fit issues, since I am assuming you don't change anything on the bow when you switch releases?

Additionally, how do you establish a repeatable anchor point, when, by definition, each release would result in a different anchor location since they don't have the same neck length? Are you saying you need to set an anchor for each release style so the results (point of impact) are the same or do you set the same anchor location for all release styles an you don't need to adjust your sights?

To clarify, my sight picture between the two releases is identical (or at least it seems that way) as I use tiny peeps in both bows to match up with the scope housings. The releases are different in neck length, which is why there is the difference in my hand's location regarding anchor. However, the other points I use to anchor, i.e. brushing the side of my nose with the string and peep alignment, are the same.

I am thinking I must be putting some torque on the string due to the difference in how I am pulling the releases to fire or maybe the sight picture is different even though it is not perceivable.

Would using a torqueless style d loop solve the torque problem?

Joe


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## Mestang99

Joe,

Your answer was in my original post, but I will try to clarify it. I don't set my bow to match a release. I also do not change my anchor to fit a release either. They sell so many different styles of releases that you just need to find a few that work well together. I also have my releases set to fit me, not to fit my bow. My wriststrap is set short so it can be fired with the same back tension as my thumb and hinge. The only change is that my index finger is hooked over the trigger instead of my thumb. I still pull through my shot the same way. I also attribute its repeatability to the use of a kisser button. The string is always landing in the same location at anchor.

I personally have not messed with the torqueless loop as I like to play with loop lengths. After reading the Dloop thread in this forum I may actually be making a big change this week... Always something...


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## Fury90flier

if the release is a little longer, shorter, fits the hand differently- your anchor will change- so will how the pressure is applied to the loop. 

There is only 1 reason you get POI changes when changing a release....you're pulling on the loop differently. 


I've got 3 releases I typically use, ST360, Solution 2, Zenith Comfort 2- each of them fit differently...each of them have a different POI (slightly). Though if I do MY part and make sure anchor is the same, pulling into the wall is the same (change your release- this can change too), make sure draw arm is properly in-line....that POI shift is significantly reduced--- as in, you couldn't tell the shots were from different releases.


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## Mahly

Does your string touch your face more with one release or the other?
Does your release hand sit on your face differently (farther in or out)?
Are you sure you don't turn your head more or less with either release?

To be able to go from one release to the next without making any changes to the bow and still hitting the same POI, any face contact on the string needs to be the same, as well as how hard the release sits on your face.
If one release has your hand in a position that is crowding your head so you have to turn you head to get to anchor will change POI as well.

Also, your firing engine between a hinge and a trigger may not be the same. Perhaps the hinge has you pulling through the shot harder ... or less hard depending on your engine.



As for topic relevance, I think there is room for it here....anyone shooting outdoors with a hinge in a strong wind should see the possible advantage to being able to go to a lower travel release, or command release.


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## cbrunson

All above are true. The main thing being that it is moving slightly (even if consistently) during the firing process differently with different releases. You have to use a different anchor reference than your hand on face anchor to do it. I use the string on the tip of my nose and peep/housing alignment only and focus on pulling straight back. Doing it that way, I can use any release. I still use a hinge 95% of the time, but when the wind is blowing I use the button and it hits the same spot.


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## buckshotiii

I think my answer to this question may come from additional range time. Although I may be thinking everything is the same, when it comes down to 1/4" and 1/8"s of an inch, I am probably not exactly the same. So, like many other things, the only solution is practice, practice, practice.

I appreciate everyone's input and do believe this post was appropriate even though some "experts" think it was too basic of a question because they already knew the answer.

My ultimate purpose for asking the question is how, like Mahly says, some shooters are able to switch between a hinge and a trigger when it is windy and still be successful. Given many people experience a shift in POI, I was wondering how people dealt with it. Meaning, are those people who are able to successfully switch doing so without a shift in their POI between releases or are they simply adjusting their sights knowing how their POI shifts between the respective release? Some people have said it will shift POI, some have said POI doesn't shift if you are consistent enough with your shooting routine, I think it may just be different for different people.

Joe


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## cbrunson

You are always going to get different answers from different people. If you get some idea that helps you it is worth it IMO. You still have to figure it out yourself. Knowing it can be done helps. It is very handy being able to just grab a different release in the middle of a shoot, and be confident with it.


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## Mahly

cbrunson said:


> All above are true. The main thing being that it is moving slightly (even if consistently) during the firing process differently with different releases. You have to use a different anchor reference than your hand on face anchor to do it. I use the string on the tip of my nose and peep/housing alignment only and focus on pulling straight back. Doing it that way, I can use any release. I still use a hinge 95% of the time, but when the wind is blowing I use the button and it hits the same spot.


That's pretty much what I am doing as well.
String to the nose
String to corner of mouth
Peep aligned
Let the hand/release sit where it wants.

I can go back and forth between my thumb trigger and hinge... But get just a slight lateral change in POI when I go to a wrist strap.... bettering it's a face contact thing there.


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## buckshotiii

Thanks everyone. I learned a lot and now have some direction on what to focus on to get better.


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## bigHUN

you folks claiming you can change releases and still fill the same holes with arrows.....well this may work with tossing logs @ 20, but try this and compare the groups @ 50-70-90...meters....btw I didn't meant to offend


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