# "Fast flight" vs. traditional flemish strings



## kill_goose (Sep 5, 2008)

So what does a guy gain going from more "traditional" type string like a flemish, to a fast flight string on a longbow or recurve?

Also, whats an endless loop?

Thanks


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## rembrandt (Jan 17, 2004)

You will notice the difference right off. Your arrow will fly flatter and you gain speed which is the intent of FF strings. Pay the extra and you will be glad you did.....

the loop thing, sombody else will have to elaborate on that.....


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## fotoguy (Jul 30, 2007)

Actually, you can have a flemish string made with fast flite...as well as with dacron...same token, you can have a dacron endless loop, as well as fast flite....flemish and endless loop are two types of strings made..what they are made of has nothing to do with it.....with fast flight you will get less stretch, and more speed....


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## guyver (Jan 3, 2012)

Not all bows can safely handle modern string materials (d97, fast flight etc) this is the case for most older/vintage bows.


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## BowmanJay (Jan 1, 2007)

Yeah your mixing string types and string materials. As mentioned a flemish string can be made of B-50 or FF materials. There is no guarentee that you will see any gains as every bow is different and will react differently. Some bows are not able to use FF strings and will cause limb damage if your not careful. I prefer endless loop strings over flemish because they tend to not stretch as much over time.


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

put on a fast flight string and your shooting will improve by 1000% - 

seriously - as was said - the various "fast flight" materials can usually be made into a flemish twist string - with the exception of Majesty due to the impregnated plastic resin.

I think that flemish are "prettier" - but they are also noiser when it is cold out - they creek when you draw in the winter. I use endless loop made out of Angel Majesty - love those strings.


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## kegan (Aug 28, 2006)

sharpbroadhead said:


> put on a fast flight string and your shooting will improve by 1000% -
> 
> seriously - as was said - the various "fast flight" materials can usually be made into a flemish twist string - with the exception of Majesty due to the impregnated plastic resin.
> 
> I think that flemish are "prettier" - but they are also noiser when it is cold out - they creek when you draw in the winter. I use endless loop made out of Angel Majesty - love those strings.


I've never had a creeking Flemish string? I've had squeaky nocks before, where the material rubs the nocks and squeaks. Happened a lot on my old selfbows with hardwood overlays.


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## Charon (Apr 17, 2011)

sharpbroadhead said:


> put on a fast flight string and your shooting will improve by 1000% -


Not really. A modern FF type string material can increase arrow speed significantly. But if a guy isn't a very good shooter he'll still suck. He'll just suck faster.


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## sawtoothscream (Apr 19, 2008)

I like FF, I had to use a dracon string over the summer and that sucker really stretched alot. would finish shooting a course and would have to twiste it up then twiste again before I shot again. repeat was a cheaper proshop string though


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

Charon - I was being sarcastic - just joking

Kegan - you must have never hunted in extreme cold - ie: in the teens to below zero - I don't know if it is the wax between the twists or what - but the flemish twist strings make noise in very cold weather in the late season when I draw


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## rickstix (Nov 11, 2009)

kill_goose said:


> Also, whats an endless loop?


“Endless” or “continuous” strings are made by setting two posts…one at each end of the given string length. Typically, the string material then wraps around and around each post until the chosen number of strands is attained…it is a single unbroken strand of material. Then the end loops are served (sometimes extra material is added to “pad” the loop’s diameter) followed by serving at the center section.

Flemish twist strings are often made with multiple bundles (2 or 3) composed of individual strands of material…that have each been cut to length. In the simplest of versions…Flemish strings have as many strands in their loops as there are strands in the rest of the string, where with “endless/continuous” there would be half as many strands per loop…if “padding” is not done. (Going from post A, around post B and back to A produces 2 strands in the body, but only one at the loop.) Hope that’s clear enough without pictures. Enjoy, Rick.


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## rembrandt (Jan 17, 2004)

????? I came across a guy on ebay that makes FF strings and he makes them with 18 strands. I was of the opinion that FF strings came with 14 or less strands?


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

they can be made with as many strands as you want - I make my ff Angel Majesty strings 18 strands. It has been shown that there is virtually no difference in speed between a skinny string or one with more strands. There was a debate about this a few years ago - and this is what Ken Beck from Black Widow had to say:

This is Ken Beck's post on the "Widow Wall" dated Feb 15, 2010: 

"TESTING STRINGS In response to a lot of interest in various string materials and “skinny” strings, we have performance tested several materials in both conventional and “skinny” versions to compare to our standard 14 strand DynaFLIGHT 97. Ray Caliendo (our milling machine guru and longtime string maker and expert) made the strings used for testing. The “skinny” strings had about half the strands but were padded in the loops to protect from what I call the “piano wire effect” that can split the limb tips. The center servings were also padded to get the desired arrow nock fit. For our purposes here, no silencers when installed. 

Here is our testing protocol: For the recurve test, we selected a 60" PSA X. We chose to do the tests at a 30" draw (rather than 28") to maximize any benefit gained. The bow was braced at 8 1/ 4" and weighed on our electronic digital scale (0.1 increments) and it weighed in at 57.5#. Then we built an arrow that weighed exactly 517.5 grains (9 x 57.5#). (A higher brace would give a slightly higher draw weight and thus require a heavier arrow.) The shooting was done with our shooting machine. For each test, the bow was drawn with the winch to exactly 30" and the mechanical release was then activated. Each test requires only two or three shots through the chronograph. The readout will never vary more than one foot per second. If the first and second shots read the same (which is usually the case), we record this fps number. If not, we shoot a third arrow and record the two-out-of-three number. Since our chronograph does not measure in tenths of fps, our method is only accurate to within plus or minus 1/ 2 fps. A different chronograph might read faster or slower, but our testing protocol would produce the same consistency. 

PSA X 60" RECURVE 57.5# @ 30" 517.5 grain arrow 

DynaFLIGHT 97 14 strand 196 fps 

Ultra Cam 16 strand 195 fps 

Ultra Cam 8 strand 195 fps 

Excellerent 12 strand 195 fps 

Excellerent 8 strand 195 fps 

Astro Flight 20 strand 195 fps 

Astro Flight 10 strand 195 fps 

Trophy 20 strand 196 fps 

Trophy 12 strand 196 fps 

D 10 18 strand 197 fps 

D 10 12 strand 196 fps 

We then tested a 60" (so we could use the same strings) PL X longbow of exactly the same draw weight at 30" with basically the same results, only 2 to 3 fps slower than the recurve. A 64" longbow would have been more suitable for a 30" draw and would have reduced the difference between the longbow and the recurve. We also compared speeds with and without the typical four Spider string silencers with a difference of 2-3 fps (2 fps on the DF 97}. 

As you can see, it’s a washout. I was not surprised because I had tested an endless “skinny” string some time ago with the same result. Even though these 60" “skinny” strings (with padded loops and center serving) weigh 20 to 30 grains less (depending on which strand material), fewer strands allow more stretch or elasticity and we thus loose what we hoped to gain. The conventional D 10 string was 1 fps faster for both the recurve and longbow. 

Well, there may be those who question these numbers and feel that the “Old Man” has gone over-the-hill and senility has set in. I would simply suggest “Grumpy” old man. So here’s the deal: Since I’m “from Missouri”, bring your Black Widow bow to Missouri with your properly padded “skinny” string and “show me”. Using the scientific testing method described above (you may determine the brace height), if you can achieve an additional 3 fps over a standard 14 strand DynaFLIGHT 97 string, we will build you a new Black Widow bow of your choice. BUT.... if you can not achieve an additional 3 fps, you must leave your Black Widow bow with us, OR.... pay for a new Black Widow bow that we will build for you. SUCH A DEAL! If there is a better mouse trap, we want to know about it! (This offer will expire 12-31-2010.) 

I have also resurrected a post from the past entitled "TESTING & COMPARING BOW PERFORMANCE” for you to review. 

Let me summerize: PHYSICS is PHYSICS is PHYSICS.... and you can’t get around it. 

Ken Beck " 


To date - no one has won the Widow bow.

There is a reason that Olympic Shooters are not out there shooting skinny strings - if there was an advantage to them - you can bet that the best and most competitive archers in the world would be using them.


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## rembrandt (Jan 17, 2004)

Well, that pretty much explains that......Learn something new everyday it seems....


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## kegan (Aug 28, 2006)

Ken, I haven't hunted in temperatures that cold, but I've shot when it's that cold. Makes sense that with sitting still and THEN drawing you might get the wax rubbing the other strands though. If I'm shooting from start to finish, the wax hasn't had time to freeze. Never even thought of it!


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## vabowdog (Dec 13, 2007)

Ken is right on with the wax sticking to the back of your limbs especially in cold weather and yes it does make a creeping noise...he also is dead on with fast flight, my experience with dacron like B50 you shoot it twice twist it twice shoot it 30 twist it 30 then when you make it using the Flemish twist it never ends.use some type of fast flight like 8125 or D97 have it built in endless loop and you will never look back...

Dewayne


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## Destroyer (Sep 11, 2009)

kill_goose said:


> So what does a guy gain going from more "traditional" type string like a flemish, to a fast flight string on a longbow or recurve?


Endless loop strings are generally quieter and don't fall apart as easy.


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## rembrandt (Jan 17, 2004)

I've got a Stone Mt. FF on my Excel and got two on order for my SF w/ Kaya limbs......I won't shoot anything else.


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## BarneySlayer (Feb 28, 2009)

In my experience, the flemish twist do take longer for the strands to settle into the wax, particularly if you don't do a healthy pre-stretch, and burnish the string under tension. I usually get 1" or more of initial stretch right off the bat before it ever sees an arrow, and then it will still settle a bit, mostly over the next 50-100 shots, then slightly more, slowly, afterwards. However, it it is well-made, adequately waxed, and kept twisted, it should settle and stay, and not fall apart.


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## rickstix (Nov 11, 2009)

BarneySlayer said:


> In my experience, the flemish twist do take longer for the strands to settle into the wax, particularly if you don't do a healthy pre-stretch, and burnish the string under tension. I usually get 1" or more of initial stretch right off the bat before it ever sees an arrow, and then it will still settle a bit, mostly over the next 50-100 shots, then slightly more, slowly, afterwards. However, it it is well-made, adequately waxed, and kept twisted, it should settle and stay, and not fall apart.


Yup...I don’t find Flemish twist strings to be a bother at all. After I make mine I hang some heavy weight from it for at least overnight...maybe then give it few twists and leave it longer. By the time it’s on the bow and all rubbed-down it doesn’t take long to shoot-in and remain fairly stable.

I have yet to any of the past few dozen show any signs of falling apart...although the first couple of attempts never found their way on to a bow. It was probably an asset that I’d been splicing loops into rope for a long time...slight difference in that the rope comes already twisted...but neither is all that difficult if you put your mind to it. It’s a shame anyone has a bad experience with any string. I like ‘em all. Enjoy, Rick.


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## kill_goose (Sep 5, 2008)

rickstix said:


> “Endless” or “continuous” strings are made by setting two posts…one at each end of the given string length. Typically, the string material then wraps around and around each post until the chosen number of strands is attained…it is a single unbroken strand of material. Then the end loops are served (sometimes extra material is added to “pad” the loop’s diameter) followed by serving at the center section.
> 
> Flemish twist strings are often made with multiple bundles (2 or 3) composed of individual strands of material…that have each been cut to length. In the simplest of versions…Flemish strings have as many strands in their loops as there are strands in the rest of the string, where with “endless/continuous” there would be half as many strands per loop…if “padding” is not done. (Going from post A, around post B and back to A produces 2 strands in the body, but only one at the loop.) Hope that’s clear enough without pictures. Enjoy, Rick.


That explains it perfectly. Thanks!


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## SteveB (Dec 18, 2003)

What is a "traditional" string?


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## Sumpfmann (Feb 27, 2008)

Related question, I guess: is there any reason not to use a continuous loop string vs. a flemish twist string on a longbow, given that the bow is built to take high performance string material?


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## Destroyer (Sep 11, 2009)

No problem using a endless loop on any bow.


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## rickstix (Nov 11, 2009)

SteveB said:


> What is a "traditional" string?


I’d imagine you’re referring to the part of the question that states, “more 'traditional' type string like a flemish”. Can’t really speak from the original poster’s perspective, but Flemish twist strings have been around long before the developement of modern synthetic materials. At least in that regard, I probably wouldn't have a problem considering them "more traditional". 

Basically, any fiber that folds over on itself when twisted can be made into cordage...and making cordage has been practiced for thousands of years (...modern string materials also have the same property, but bowstrings were here first). “They” used to say Tarzan could make a bowstring from the lint in his navel...I just never could figure out where the lint came from, as he never wore a shirt. Rick.


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