# Very Weird Bare Shaft Tunning Results ? What Does This Mean?



## rattus58 (Jul 9, 2007)

CEM said:


> So I decided to do some bare shaft tunning today. I recently switched from 5” to 4” feathers but mainly this was just a check up. I hadn't done bare shaft tunning in several months and I wanted to see if some changes in my form, and better shooting lately, were going to warrant a better tune. My fletched arrows were grouping well and were perpendicular to the target after impact. Well to my great surprise the first bare arrow at 15 yards winged way right and missed the target. I moved to 10 yards and tried again, hitting the far right side of the target with the arrow nock way to the left, same for the next bare shaft, fletched arrows in the bull's eye. I shoot right handed so this screamed weak arrow, I switched from a 100 grain to a 75 grain head on all four arrows. No noticeable change to the bare shafts: nock way left, arrows hit way right. But the fletched shafts hit slightly left with the nock now noticeably to the right – showing stiff!?! I repeated this a half dozen times, same result every time. I'm perplexed, the bare shafts fly right and impact as if weak, the fletched arrows show stiff. What gives? Thanks in advance to anyone who responds.
> 
> -CEM


No idear... but this could really be a spine issue. How heavy is your point? I can't imagine what you could do with fingers that would cause that without really clobbering the riser on the way out... but I'm capable of all sorts of bad form and have had all sorts of life events such as yours.... but I'm thinking spine and close to centershot riser is the reason for your wide right arrow behavior.... without fletching but on target with...

Much Aloha... :beer:


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## WindWalker (Jan 23, 2005)

Bareshaft tuning does not always tell the truth because it is greatly affected, in the negative sense, by setup and form. That is why some shooters that are well versed in tuning a bow/arrow will often advise to beware, that bareshafting can indicate false positives and negatives. 

Backing up a bit; 2016's with a 125 grain head would likely be too stiff for your setup. In that you have used 100 and 75 grain heads has further stiffened the dynamic spine of the shaft.

My draw-length is 30.5". I shoot Easton aluminum .500 cut to 31.25" length, mounted with 125 grain heads and three 5" feather fletch off 52# to 54# recurves and the new Easton .500 GG's have (still) shown a slight stiff spine off the bows.


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## rogbo (Jan 2, 2004)

To add, a severe stiff arrow can push off the sight window and force the tail wayyyy left coming off the bow, giving a false weak shaft indication. If you've got a wrap on it, look for marks on the inside or the very bottom of the shaft.


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## AReric (Mar 6, 2010)

rogbo said:


> To add, a severe stiff arrow can push off the sight window and force the tail wayyyy left coming off the bow, giving a false weak shaft indication. If you've got a wrap on it, look for marks on the inside or the very bottom of the shaft.


I'm glad I tuned in today to see this thread! I have a similar issue: 46#@28", BH is 7 3/4". Been trying 2016 legacys @ 29.5", stock insert (20gr), and 125gr point. To the right of target and nock left (right-hand shooter) big time! In my secondary vision I see the arrow going nock left in flight to the target. My set up should be showing nock right (stiff) if anything. I will put a wrap on it and try again. Thanks and sorry to hi-jack the thread!:wave3:


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## Viper1 (Aug 21, 2003)

CEM -

Given that the bare shafts are impacting right, with a tail left kickout, that pretty much confirms a weak *acting* arrow. That's very possible with (I'll assume a 32"+ 2016). 

To prove that, you have to make the arrows act stiff. Easiest way to do that is to move the NAP rest about 1/8" or more farther AWAY from the riser and retest. 

Viper1 out.


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## CEM (Jun 14, 2010)

roqbo,

Would an arrow that is too stiff and hitting the riser as you suggest cause rightward flight of the arrow or just the left kick-out?

Viper,

Arrows are 31" Any reason you suggest moving the rest vs. a brace height change?

Thanks everybody.

-CEM


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## rattus58 (Jul 9, 2007)

CEM said:


> roqbo,
> 
> Would an arrow that is too stiff and hitting the riser as you suggest cause rightward flight of the arrow or just the left kick-out?
> 
> ...


For one you're complaint is arrows to the right of target, and nock I think would would be a vertical error. Moving the rest out, I think would possibly validate the assumption that your arrows are dynamically too weak if they start hitting closer to the center of the target instead of off to the right as you indicate is the case now. I'm thinking its a spine problem as well from what you indicate. But like anything... this is strictly an opinion of the three of us resident at this keyboard... :grin:

Here's to hoping you resolve this quickly and inexpensively.

What is your drawlength, if I may ask?

Aloha..  :beer:


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## Viper1 (Aug 21, 2003)

CEM -

Yup, brace height changes typically result in fine tuning. What we're looking for here is a pretty gross change. The degree of center shot typically gives you the most bang for the buck. 

Depending on your current settings, you could also play with the pre-load by moving the limb bolts out, but I think the center shot will confirm or deny the weak shaft thing with the least amount of effort.

Now, if making drastic changes doesn't effect the bare shaft tune, then something is over-riding those changes and that means you 

Viper1 out.


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## centershot (Sep 13, 2002)

Make sure your nocking point is not too low. It will give false readings. Start with it way too high, like 3/4" too high - then work your way down. I was having the same issues a while back and found that when I raised the nock point the symptoms were back to standard and easily fixed.


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## CEM (Jun 14, 2010)

Thanks for the advice guys. I will not get a chance to shoot again till later in the week but will try some of the suggestions and post results.

Rattus, my draw is ~30.75"

-CEM


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## rattus58 (Jul 9, 2007)

CEM said:


> Thanks for the advice guys. I will not get a chance to shoot again till later in the week but will try some of the suggestions and post results.
> 
> Rattus, my draw is ~30.75"
> 
> -CEM


Close to mine.... and thus, I think, makes some things more pronounced. I think that our longer drawlengths exacerbate certain dynamics including paradox. 

I've more thoughts on this... but the missuse is calling me to the office... :grin:


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## CEM (Jun 14, 2010)

Well more frustration today, I worked on tunning for a couple hours, still have the same problem (bare shaft way right (in the 1 ring of a 300 target) with nock left of point (~45 deg angle), fletched arrows look fine & group well). Tried the following at 10 yards and got the stated results:

Moved rest away from bow ~1/4 inch – no change in bare shaft, fletched impacted left and showed stiff

Moved nock marker up ¾ of an inch – no change in bare shaft or fletched except both showed nock high

Increased brace height 1 inch – no change – thought this one kinda odd cause even the fletched arrows showed no visible changed

Increased point weight from 100 to 175 – no change in bare shaft, fletched maybe show a little weak

Decreased point weight from 100 to 75 – no change in bare shaft, fletched show a little stiff

Working under the assumption that there was some sort of contact with the riser I coated the end of the bare shafts with baby powder and looked for some to rub off on the riser. Maybe some did but it was a real little and might of just fallen on the arrow as it passed . Not sure how you're suppose to apply this and not get it everywhere anyway. 

Still assuming it was riser/rest contact I tried some shots with a fully open hand (I shoot with a sling and a very relaxed almost open grip anyway). This made a remarkable difference causing the bare shafts to impact with the fletched arrows and show a greatly reduced angle (maybe 10-15 deg – nock left of point). Thought I was on to something here, thought maybe this was a combo of form error (torquing bow hand) and a weak arrow. Tried some different head weights while shooting hand open with little change (except the heavy heads now made the situation worse which at least made sense). 
Still shooting with an open hand, I moved the rest ¼ inch away from center again. It made the problem much worse! Bare shafts were impacting in the 2 or 3 ring with a more pronounced nock left angle. Frustrated and running out of energy anyway (I repeated everything with a dozen or more bare shafts and a dozen+ fletched to get good sample sizes) I shot a few ends to cool off and went inside.

Really not sure what to try next. With fletched arrows, the bow seems well tuned and shows minor responses in the directions expected when things are varied. I still think its riser / rest contact of some kind but whether its form of tunning or a little of both I have no idea. 

Any advice would be much appreciated. Thanks.

-CEM


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## CEM (Jun 14, 2010)

should clarify, moving rest away the second time made the arrows miss right - i.e. act weaker


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## Viper1 (Aug 21, 2003)

CEM -

That fact that all the equipment changes made no difference pretty much implicates you as the cause. You then proved that by eliminating bow torque from the equation and the problem partially resolved - confirming shooter error. 

Let's break it down:

1. original configuration = arrows showing WEAK.
2. Moving the rest OUT will push everything to the LEFT, the real question is are the bare and fletched arrows impacting any closer?
3. Increasing the brace height should make the arrows act WEAKER. (OK, it was worth a shot.)
4. Decreasing the point weight by 25 gr may not show that much of a difference, but you said "fletched arrows showed a little stiff". When bare shafting, the bare shafts IN RELATION to the fletched should tell the story, not just were the fletched ones are going. 

If you think the baby powder isn't readable, you can coat the edge of the hen feathers with lip stick or similar and then look for color marks on the bow (but your arrows are acting WEAK and that usually doesn't result in fletch contact). 

Now, the open hand worked (OK, bow hand torque usually gives a false stiff reading, so the arrow should have behave even weaker, but I'll bite...) Now, with the open hand, you pushed the plunger out and they acted weak again - that should have made them act stiffer. BUT, you were already tired and frustrated .., which kinda nullifies the testing (trust me on that one).

Repeat the exercise when you are fresh, with the default plunger set up AND the open hand. MAKE SURE YOU ARE NOT PLUCKING, and see what happens.

Sorry, really tricky to do this stuff over the web.

Viper1 out.


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## CEM (Jun 14, 2010)

Thanks for the thorough reply Viper. I'll try again tomorrow with an open hand the whole time. I wonder, now that you mention it, if a bad pluck might not be the cause of the whole thing. The open bow hand might be causing me to rotate the string hand in some way that lessens the pluck. 

-CEM


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## CEM (Jun 14, 2010)

So I finally resolved this and thought I'd post for the solution in case anyone finds this in a search in the future.

After my last post I went out and repeated my tuning exercise. I got similar results. I then spent the last month shooting as normal but finding time to drill on particular things that I thought might be causing the problem on my end (shooting with an open hand, not plucking, steadier bow hand... it was a long list). I regularly shot some bare shafts to see if the problem went away. No such luck. I also regularly did mess with the tuning (though always returning the bow to the same setup at the end) and I did notice that moving the rest away from the riser made the kick-out and the rightward flight worse. Consistently. So finally, I tried moving the rest a little closer to the riser, even though that should of made the apparent weak arrow worse. Nothing, no change. Moved it quite a bit closer and Wa la, problem fixed. 

The arrow must of been stiff. I never heard it but there must of been some kind of contact with the rest/riser that was causing something weird and a false weak shaft. 

I had also been noticing a tendency for fletched shafts to show stiff at <=10 yards, straight impact ~15 yards, and slightly weak at >= 20. I thought this was a fluke at first, but it continued over a long period of time. That has gone away as well and the arrows impact straight at all ranges I shoot at. I mention that last bit only in cast it might point someone to what exactly was going wrong in the first place.

Anyway, problem solved, I’m happy.

-CEM


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## BowmanJay (Jan 1, 2007)

From what you posted it still sounds like it was you, but glad it is solved!


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