# Grouping Question



## Horses&Hunting (Oct 10, 2007)

I was wondering how do you gals group your arrows so good? I've been trying my darnest to get a good constant group and I just can't. I'll ground here and there, but not every time. (I'll break a nock every now and then, or shoot a vane. Thats when I do group good). I'm shooting from 20 yards. I want to get that down before I move back. At 10 yards I can group awesome. But 20 its just not happening. I've checked everything for example. My clothes getting in the way and all that. On my level I keep the bubble in the middle, I stay as steady as I can. Any ideas on how I can get better at this? Thanks


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## MN_Chick (Jul 13, 2008)

Horses&Hunting said:


> I was wondering how do you gals group your arrows so good? I've been trying my darnest to get a good constant group and I just can't. I'll ground here and there, but not every time. (I'll break a nock every now and then, or shoot a vane. Thats when I do group good). I'm shooting from 20 yards. I want to get that down before I move back. At 10 yards I can group awesome. But 20 its just not happening. I've checked everything for example. My clothes getting in the way and all that. On my level I keep the bubble in the middle, I stay as steady as I can. Any ideas on how I can get better at this? Thanks


For me, the two biggest things that throw me off are hand torque and my shoulders. Keep the bow hand relaxed, be sure that it sits in the meaty part of your hand. Then be sure your shoulders are locked into place. You should feel like you are pulling your shoulder blades down and toward each other. 

Also, check your feet. Be sure they are about shoulder width apart, but no further. Do you have a draw sequence? A mental checklist that you run through with ever shot can help.


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## Horses&Hunting (Oct 10, 2007)

I tell myself with every shot, feet apart, stand straight, kisser, peep, and sight pin. I even try to put my release in the same spot all the time. I just know I'm doing something wrong.


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## Outdoor Gal (Oct 23, 2003)

Patience, grasshopper!  Not teasing ya.. just letting you know everyone has gone through the same thing, and everyone progresses at their own rate.  One thing I've noticed on my own shooting.. especially when I was shooting lower draw wt/slower arrows, is that I was tempted to try to "peak" to see where the arrow was going/went, and/or drop my bow arm just a tiny bit.. and at short distance it didn't matter so much, but the further away the target, the more I could see the affect!  Don't know if either of those things are affecting your shots or not, but worth thinkin' about!  Good luck!  (BTW, some days poor/erratic grouping STILL happens to many of us.. not enough sleep, too much coffee or stress, a bit under the weather.. many things can affect the shooting. So don't worry too much 'bout it, and enjoy the ride!


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## Cheerioette (Apr 16, 2010)

I agree with all of what these lovely ladies have said before me. I am still fighting bad habits, but now I've gotten to the point where I know on the release if it was a good shot or not, and usually why.

I suffered from (still am) peaking/moving my head to try to see the arrow, dropping my bow arm, inconsistent anchor position (since I'm shooting back tension a floppy hand can be devastating), trying to force the shot, poor follow through, and I'm sure I'm sure I'm forgetting a few. Body stance/position has never been a big issue for me, minus the chicken wing now and then.

If it is your body positioning/stance, try blind bale shooting, and focus solely on your form, not where the arrow goes.
Have you tried shooting at 15 yards?
Everything is properly sighted/lined up/tuned?
I usually know when my body starts getting tired even if my mind is in a euphoric state from shooting, because my form and release gets sloppy, and my groupings grow. Have you noticed this after you've been shooting for a while, or is it just some days you shoot well and others not? I've noted that my state of mind, focus and patient really plays into how well I shoot that day as well.

Sorry this is long! Also, I'm typing this from my phone, so forgive me for any glaring errors (not saying I type any better with a computer keyboard!). :lol: I hope this helped, or got you thinking about possible causes.

Good luck!


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## Cheerioette (Apr 16, 2010)

Horses&Hunting said:


> I tell myself with every shot, feet apart, stand straight, kisser, peep, and sight pin. I even try to put my release in the same spot all the time. I just know I'm doing something wrong.


Sorry for the double post, but I just saw this.... do you have anybody to watch you shoot? You might be torquing the bow, or again peeping and not even realize it! I would highly suggest that you have someone watch you shoot, explain what you want them to look for, if they aren't archery-savvy, and see if that helps. Or even a video camera might help.


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## mathews xt 600 (Jan 5, 2007)

Dont punch the trigger. Shoot for a surpise release and follow through. You'll get it soon enough if you just practice. I can honestly say that frustration is a key factor. Sometimes you just have to walk away!!


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## Horses&Hunting (Oct 10, 2007)

There are a couple things that are bothering me. My peep is driving me insane. I have no clue what is going on with it. Me and the pro shop have done all we can do with it. I think with that on my mind its causing me to mess up. I had my better half out shooting with me and I was told I'm doing everything the same. Was told I need to not grip the bow as hard. But I don't think I am. lol. Any other ideas I can try tomorrow if it doesn't rain? Can practicing too much cause this as well? Thanks.


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## nag (Jun 13, 2007)

First question I have is, "How well is your bow tuned?????"
As you move back from 10 to 20 yards, minor tuning issues, (inconsistanties that don't show up at 10 yards), become *Major* tuning issues at 20 yards.
Improper arrow selection to bow weight plays into this too.

As for your peep, all you mentioned was that it bugs you, but you didn't say how, or why????

Faults in your form, especially in your bow hand *WILL* cause problems too.
You shouldn't be gripping the bow anyway. Just let the bow "float" (as I teach my 4-H kids) in the web of your hand. And keep your fingers off the riser. You willl not drop the bow. 
Gripping it with all your fingers will turn the top of bow towards the right, so let the darn thing go.

Other than that, no subsitute for lots of practice. :thumbs_up


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## rdneckhillbilly (Jan 25, 2010)

This is all great advice. One thing to add (if you do not already use one) is get a wrist sling. That way you can relax your bow hand and let the bow jump and drop naturally.


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## Horses&Hunting (Oct 10, 2007)

I have a wrist sling. I hold my bow as if you are making a tight letter C with your hand. Thats the I was told to do so it will help me from hitting my arm. Which works pretty good. My peep keeps twisting on me and I've had my bow at the shop 3 times already for this. So I'm not sure whats going on. I emailed VT to see what needs to be done. As far as tuning I have no clue, I just take it to my shop and they work on it if I have problems. Sorry so short will finish in a bit.


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## MN_Chick (Jul 13, 2008)

Horses&Hunting said:


> There are a couple things that are bothering me. My peep is driving me insane. I have no clue what is going on with it. Me and the pro shop have done all we can do with it. I think with that on my mind its causing me to mess up. I had my better half out shooting with me and I was told I'm doing everything the same. Was told I need to not grip the bow as hard. But I don't think I am. lol. Any other ideas I can try tomorrow if it doesn't rain? Can practicing too much cause this as well? Thanks.


Yes, practicing too much can be harmful. If you shoot when you are tired, you will reinforce bad habits and get frustrated.



Horses&Hunting said:


> I have a wrist sling. I hold my bow as if you are making a tight letter C with your hand. Thats the I was told to do so it will help me from hitting my arm. Which works pretty good. My peep keeps twisting on me and I've had my bow at the shop 3 times already for this. So I'm not sure whats going on. I emailed VT to see what needs to be done. As far as tuning I have no clue, I just take it to my shop and they work on it if I have problems. Sorry so short will finish in a bit.


Your fingers should be completely relaxed- usually they will curl a little, but don't focus on that. Just relax them. That alone could be the problem. Also, be sure that you aren't jumping to grab it after you relase the shot. Let the bow do what its gonna do- that is what the wrist sling is for.


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## ABQ_Chica (Oct 29, 2009)

I'm having the same problem, so it's great to see all of these ideas. I especially agree with MN_Chick. I didn't think it was possible to overdo it, but despite your best intentions and efforts, it really does help to know your limits. It's too easy to get excited and shoot way too many arrows each end for way too long each session. That's probably at least one of my problems!

It's also a good idea to either take a video to show someone, or have someone at the pro shop take a look at your form. Sometimes other people see what we can't see in ourselves. Of course, that's true about a lot of things--not just archery!


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## Horses&Hunting (Oct 10, 2007)

I will give that a try, with the bow hand. When I go out to shoot I'm not really all that tired. But I think because I'm spending 2 hrs or more shooting a day its taking its toll on me. Not physically but mentally. How do you check if your bow is tuned the right way? I have no clue about bow tuning or anything. I just take it to my shop when ever I have an issue and they fix it for me. Thanks guys.


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## Cheerioette (Apr 16, 2010)

Horses&Hunting said:


> I will give that a try, with the bow hand. When I go out to shoot I'm not really all that tired. But I think because I'm spending 2 hrs or more shooting a day its taking its toll on me. Not physically but mentally. How do you check if your bow is tuned the right way? I have no clue about bow tuning or anything. I just take it to my shop when ever I have an issue and they fix it for me. Thanks guys.


I "tuned" (or at least checked) my bows for the first time recently. All I did was paper tune them, but it was a good indicator for me to know which of my arrows were more compatible with my bows, and how they flew.

I *think* most pro shops are equipped to help you paper tune your bow; however, mine is not, so I had to improvise at the archery range (I had help with this)! All you do is stand about 5-yards away from the sheet of paper you will be shooting through -- make sure you have a backdrop behind the paper.  Shoot two or three of the same arrows through the paper, while making sure you have a clean release. This will give you a good reference on how your arrows are flying, and if you need to adjust certain things.

That is pretty much what I do as well, if I have a problem -- take it to the people who know what they are talking about, and ask questions. That is the best way to learn.

I am probably at fault for shooting for too long; however, I am trying to take breaks more frequently, and be more in tune with what my body is telling me. I can easily be at the shooting range for four hours... and sometimes to the point where my shoulder is telling me I need to stop. Not good for my body, confidence, or consistency. It's difficult though, because the place I shoot at is about an hour's drive from where I live, so I feel as if I need to cram as much in as I can for the day. In retrospect it is probably hindering me more than anything.

GL.


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## Outdoor Gal (Oct 23, 2003)

*Single cam or dual cam?*

It's considerably harder to get a peep to not twist/turn on a single cam bow, than with a dual cam. Not impossible, just more difficult!  

If you're using a dual cam and having a lot of trouble with the peep twisting.. had the shop added or subracted quite a few twists to the cable to adjust your draw length? Sometimes too many changes to twists of cable or string can make it really hard to keep a peep lined up. Just a thought.

Also, are you using a D-Loop? Most folks seem to any more, but I didn't until recently (trying to get the anchor point I wanted! :wink: ) Even with the shop installing the peep and them re-adjusting things many, many times (at no cost to me, by the way! ) it would only stay lined up for a few shots at a time. But, the D-Loop helped, AND I developed a slight sub-step to my shooting sequence. I'd been taught to handle arrows by the nock anyway, getting the nock/arrow lined up properly before nocking to the string... so I just added the sub-step of kind of "brushing" the string and d-loop to line it up AS I was nocking the arrow, and the tension of the nock helped it stay in place while I attached my release, and drew to anchor. Hard to explain, but hope you can get the general idea!  Anyway, I understand the frustration and destraction of a turning or twisting peep!  BTW, if you and the shop can't get it to "cooperate" in spite of everything you try, you might have to switch to a peep that uses aligning tubing. I know.. they don't look as nice, but that's what most of us had to use for many years.. especially with single cam bows and the type of strings we often had to use! 

It is easy and inexpensive to try a different peep for awhile, so don't hesitate to try one of the several sizes of peeps that use alignment tubing. See if that can help you get your focus back on shooting instead of being frustrated by the peep. You can easily switch back to a "plain" peep any time you want.. after you've had the chance to get back into ENJOYABLE shooting for awhile! 

And I "second", or "third" the comments about shooting too long without breaks, too long per session, etc. You know the phrase "quit while you're ahead"? There's a LOT of truth to that!  Many good music teachers and sports coaches will advise that! Trying to force beyond/through declining "performance" develops/reinforces BAD habits, can leave you with subconscious negative thoughts and attitudes, reduce confidence and reduce your overall enjoyment. 

Have FUN!


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## ABQ_Chica (Oct 29, 2009)

"Quit while you're ahead." Too true. I may have to tattoo that on my draw arm! I am kind of relieved though--I thought I was the only one who shot for hours on end to cram as much as possible into the sporadic times when I can make it to the range. Have learned the hard way that it doesn't help, and I'm having to unlearn some bad habits. New mantra: Less is more!


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## ABQ_Chica (Oct 29, 2009)

By the way, thanks for all the suggestions, ladies!


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## Horses&Hunting (Oct 10, 2007)

Thanks for all the great advice. I'm taking today off, last day of turkey season and now its raining. I don't think its my peep sight, as it works great. I've moved my string silencer on top down some and it straighten it out a bit. The bow I have is a single cam bow. By nocking the arrow like you said, could that be the reason its turning on me? What I mean is, by just nocking it and then turning the d-loop would that mess things up? There is a archery shop down the road, I'm going to take it tomorrow hopefully and see if they can twist the string some. Hope they don't charge that much lol. I'll post a picture of my rig so you can get a better idea the peep. Couple more things off layaway and my rig will be complete lol. But yeah a much needed break is due. Thanks again guys.


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## nag (Jun 13, 2007)

Vapor Trail does make a fine string/cable set...I've used them myself plenty of times as well as having put several set on friends bows.

The Sting/cables I now use are built by Scotts Strings in Iowa. These are prestretched and take less than 20 shots to set.
http://www.scottsstrings.com/index2.html

I have noticed that when my strings have been shot a lot....even though they might not look worn out, the material is still for the most part, finished.
So when I see my peep start to roll out of position, I know it's time to replace the string/cable.

If your sting was made with 8125 string material, then expect that string to stretch .8125"... that's over 3/4"!!!! It was named 8125 because if this.

Next time try 452-X, (if you haven't already)...you won't regret it.

Only other fix is to get a peep aligner...rubber tubing, but if your string is built correctly and of the right material, you shoudn't have to do this.


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## Horses&Hunting (Oct 10, 2007)

I called Mike at VT and hes hooking me up with a new string. Hopefully this will fix my rotation problem. Thanks for the string advice. Do you guys have any pictures of your grouping from 20 yards or? Just wondering what a good group is suppose to look like.


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## z28melissa (Feb 8, 2007)

If you get a chance post up some pictures of you at full draw, as you're shooting at 20 yds. It could be something as simple as a flaw in your form. One pic straight on (so your stomach is facing the camera at full draw) and one from behind (so your right elbow is pointing at the camera at full draw).

On a sidenote, it is strange that your pro shop can't fix your peep rotating issue. Hopefully the VT strings will eliminate the problem though


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## krniemoth (May 8, 2009)

If you are having trouble with your peep turning, use an aligner peep. I use one anyway because when I am hunting I dont want to have to worry about it. It sounds like you just need to relax and not think so much. To me, it seems like i shoot better if I am not worried about where my hand is, how long I am holding etc. Don't worry so much about getting a good group and worry about shooting your best and trying your hardest. It will all come with time.


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## Horses&Hunting (Oct 10, 2007)

Ok heres some pics. Please don't mind the empty house, as we are trying to move lol. Its hard to tell in the front pic, but I do have a little bend in my elbow. My better half didn't want to get shot lol so its not a great pic. 
I wanted to add, that I got a "newer/used" release from a friend. Its like my old one, but alittle different of a style. Didn't know if that had anything to do with it either.


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## archerykid13 (Aug 11, 2009)

Horses&Hunting said:


> Ok heres some pics. Please don't mind the empty house, as we are trying to move lol. Its hard to tell in the front pic, but I do have a little bend in my elbow. My better half didn't want to get shot lol so its not a great pic.
> I wanted to add, that I got a "newer/used" release from a friend. Its like my old one, but alittle different of a style. Didn't know if that had anything to do with it either.
> 
> 
> ...


Sorry to interfere in the Women's forum, but it looks like you're gripping the bow to tight therefore torquing it. That could be a problem.

AK13


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## z28melissa (Feb 8, 2007)

Horses&Hunting said:


> Ok heres some pics. Please don't mind the empty house, as we are trying to move lol. Its hard to tell in the front pic, but I do have a little bend in my elbow. My better half didn't want to get shot lol so its not a great pic.
> I wanted to add, that I got a "newer/used" release from a friend. Its like my old one, but alittle different of a style. Didn't know if that had anything to do with it either.
> 
> 
> ...


Excellent. A side photo (belly facing cam) would show this more but, do you see how your elbow is pointing down? Your forearm should actually be flat; parallel with the arrow/ground. This low elbow makes your wrist bent and that will DEFINITELY make it hard to stay stead and get a good grouping.

As for the cause of this, it could be a number of things and maybe someone more experienced at the pro shop can take a look too. But here's my take... usually it's caused by too long of a draw length, and it looks like maybe just a shorter release could help too. 

You should be able to stand straight up, shoulders even, head turned with the string touching your nose (or kisser where you like it), bow arm slightly bent. If you find yourself having to pull your head back OR pull your release wrist back too far (causing a low elbow), your draw length may need shortened.

I think this small change can really help you  have your draw length checked again and see if they think shortening it would help.


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## Horses&Hunting (Oct 10, 2007)

Thanks. I will give that a try. The release was given to me cause my old one was causing blisters on my hands. He had bought a new one so handed this one down to me. But this one seems like its wants to slip off my arm even tho its tighten all the way. Just may give it back to him. I have tiny wrists so lol. I'd rather deal with blisters than a broke bow lol. Thanks for the great advice I will be out tomorrow trying it out. Will let ya know how it goes. Thanks again.


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## z28melissa (Feb 8, 2007)

Horses&Hunting said:


> Thanks. I will give that a try. The release was given to me cause my old one was causing blisters on my hands. He had bought a new one so handed this one down to me. But this one seems like its wants to slip off my arm even tho its tighten all the way. Just may give it back to him. I have tiny wrists so lol. I'd rather deal with blisters than a broke bow lol. Thanks for the great advice I will be out tomorrow trying it out. Will let ya know how it goes. Thanks again.


Sounds good, let me know what the pro shop says about your draw length. What is it currently, and how tall are you?


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## Horses&Hunting (Oct 10, 2007)

I believe my dl is 27? The first bow I had on layaway he had it set on 27. But then I saw the bow I have now and changed lol. So its either 26 5/8s or 27" dl. lol. I'm about 5'7". I found a shop thats not real far from me so I'm going to go there today and check em out. As far as releases go, what would be a good one? Thanks.


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## absolutecool (Mar 26, 2006)

Releases are like everything else...what one person likes you may not like...it is hard to say, by far my favorite wrist release is the first one I ever used, a fletcher, I still love it and use it for hunting season. 

I agree that your draw may be a tad long and it really looks like you are gripping your bow but my husband looks like he has a death grip on his and he swears he is not gripping it at all.

If you can try all the releases you can, that is what everyone will say. Scott makes good crisp releases and their wrist strap is very comfortable to me. Tru ball also makes very nice releases but I can't find a happy place with their straps...as I said, everyone is different in what they choose.

Good luck!! I am gonna try to find a pic of my hand on the bow and post it...it may take me a while...lol


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## krniemoth (May 8, 2009)

Personally I use a scott sabertooth but like they said it is all your preference. If you have a really small wrists you may need to try a youth size wrist strap. I have huge wrists and with the scott i only have about 3 holes before I need a smaller strap.


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## Horses&Hunting (Oct 10, 2007)

Well I went out to shoot. Was shooting open handed. Just tried a few different things. Got my grouping back for the most part. Its not perfect but its getting there. Now just have to figure out the release part lol. Thanks again for all yalls help.


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## z28melissa (Feb 8, 2007)

Horses&Hunting said:


> Well I went out to shoot. Was shooting open handed. Just tried a few different things. Got my grouping back for the most part. Its not perfect but its getting there. Now just have to figure out the release part lol. Thanks again for all yalls help.


What did the pro shop have to say about your draw length?


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## Horses&Hunting (Oct 10, 2007)

Well he said I'm about a 26. So I guess thats ok. I didn't have my bow with me. Will take it with me next time. Will keep ya updated on that.


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## nag (Jun 13, 2007)

No one like to hear that they are doing someting wrong, but I see 2 things.....

1. you are gripping the bow!!!!! BAD BAD BAD. 
Let the bow "float" in the web of your hand. 
2. And from my point of view, your draw length is too long.
Your body language say so.

Personally, your current Pro shop doesn't inspire my confidence, especially if they can't solve a rotating peep problem.

Just my 2 cents worth.....right between the eyes:wink:


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## Horses&Hunting (Oct 10, 2007)

I got my new VT replacement string in. I plan on taking it to this new shop I found next week. I will have them check my dl and all that. If my dl is to long should I not work on turning up the poundage til its fixed? Thanks guys.


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## Horses&Hunting (Oct 10, 2007)

*Update*

Just wanted to let yall know that I'm about to take my bow in. Planning on getting dl checked, and everything else checked. Keep your fingers crossed I don't have to change anything lol.


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## z28melissa (Feb 8, 2007)

Horses&Hunting said:


> Just wanted to let yall know that I'm about to take my bow in. Planning on getting dl checked, and everything else checked. Keep your fingers crossed I don't have to change anything lol.


Don't be afraid of change - if it helps fix something, then it's a GOOD thing!

I'd say don't worry about DW until you're shooting consistently at 20yds. It's not going to make much of a difference for now.


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## Horses&Hunting (Oct 10, 2007)

Well just got back not to long ago. Here is what he said. My dl is fine, release length is ok. He said everything looks good. He installed the new string and put everything back the way it was. He had me shoot for a bit to make sure everything was ok. I asked all kinds of questions, and was told everything was ok. So I'm guessing I just needed to lighten up on my grip. I dunno. He did say that my peep could be rotating due to the fact of my low poundage and not having enough tension on the string. Have you guys ever heard of this? Thanks again for all yalls help.


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## z28melissa (Feb 8, 2007)

Hmm... so he thinks your DL is fine, what did he say is causing the low elbow and bent wrist, and head lean? What is your draw weight right now? They should absolutely be able to fix the peep turn issue regardless of draw weight, IMO.

This wasn't a "big box store" was it? I don't want to make any assumptions but I'm just getting the impression that they're not giving you very professional advice; I don't know if they're not taking you seriously, or they are inexperienced, or what. I've been to a handful of "bow shops" that will hire any Joe Schmoe, and have heard and gotten some reeeally bad advice, particularly in chain stores. My favorite one so far is the guy who tried convincing me that the peep sight was supposed to touch my nose - it makes a good anchor point don't ya know! haha. 

I really still think though that a change in your form will help immensely. That may or may not involve changing your draw length. If you're up to it, post up your "full draw" photos in the General section, there are dozens of very experienced archers and coaches who will really analyze your form thoroughly and let you know where you can make improvements. Unfortunately those guys don't seem to poke into the women's section very often! But they are very helpful.


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## Horses&Hunting (Oct 10, 2007)

He didn't say anything, just that everything looked good. I even asked if I were nocking my arrow right. Just in case I was doing it wrong and causing the d-loop to rotate and whatnot. My dw is 40lbs. I've gotta find my allen wrenches so I can turn up the pounds a little. I told him about what the other place did and said. He didn't really say anything about that. I think they should be able to fix it as well. I just don't have a clue why one shop isn't fixing it and the other will. Don't get me wrong the one shop I love going to. They've helped me out soooo much. They know us and know we don't have jobs and everything. So they help me out. I can't say that about other shops. If its nice tomorrow, I'll go out and have a full picture taken while I'm shooting.


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## z28melissa (Feb 8, 2007)

Horses&Hunting said:


> He didn't say anything, just that everything looked good. I even asked if I were nocking my arrow right. Just in case I was doing it wrong and causing the d-loop to rotate and whatnot. My dw is 40lbs. I've gotta find my allen wrenches so I can turn up the pounds a little. I told him about what the other place did and said. He didn't really say anything about that. I think they should be able to fix it as well. I just don't have a clue why one shop isn't fixing it and the other will. Don't get me wrong the one shop I love going to. They've helped me out soooo much. They know us and know we don't have jobs and everything. So they help me out. I can't say that about other shops. If its nice tomorrow, I'll go out and have a full picture taken while I'm shooting.


Glad to hear the one shop is taking care of ya at least! 40lbs is really not that low - it is not what's causing the peep problem, no question about it. If you were pulling 15lbs, then it would be more believable. Here's a recent example of how to post up a form photo for critiquing:
http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=1207361&highlight=form


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## Horses&Hunting (Oct 10, 2007)

Sorry it took me so long to reply. Heres a pic I had taken today. I had a break in our moving sale so was able to shoot for a bit. Do you guys know where I can get some nocks for my arrows? I can't find em any where. I'm down to 2 arrows. Which sucks with all the walking back and forth. Thanks.


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## z28melissa (Feb 8, 2007)

Horses&Hunting said:


> Sorry it took me so long to reply. Heres a pic I had taken today. I had a break in our moving sale so was able to shoot for a bit. Do you guys know where I can get some nocks for my arrows? I can't find em any where. I'm down to 2 arrows. Which sucks with all the walking back and forth. Thanks.
> 
> View attachment 793937


Great pic, do you see how your elbow is dropping down (right arm)? Your forearm should be flat; parallel with your arrow. You're also leaning back and pulling your head back. All 3 things point to a draw length issue, but go ahead and post this up in the General section and see what others say. What do I know 

Your pro shop will have more nocks.


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## Horses&Hunting (Oct 10, 2007)

Thanks. You know more about this stuff than I do, thats for sure. So if my dl is to long and the 2 pro shops say its ok. Then what do I do? I have no clue on how to change that stuff myself. Thanks for taking the time to help me. Really means alot.


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## z28melissa (Feb 8, 2007)

Horses&Hunting said:


> Thanks. You know more about this stuff than I do, thats for sure. So if my dl is to long and the 2 pro shops say its ok. Then what do I do? I have no clue on how to change that stuff myself. Thanks for taking the time to help me. Really means alot.


No problem at all, I know i've needed a whooole lot of help along the way too haha.


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## J-Daddy (Aug 7, 2003)

Horses&Hunting said:


> Sorry it took me so long to reply. Heres a pic I had taken today. I had a break in our moving sale so was able to shoot for a bit. Do you guys know where I can get some nocks for my arrows? I can't find em any where. I'm down to 2 arrows. Which sucks with all the walking back and forth. Thanks.
> 
> View attachment 793937


Melissa has you on the right path....Here's my take on most "ProShops" telling you what to do as far as form & draw length= Let it go in one ear and out the other.
Half the guys working in shops dont have a clue when it comes to proper form from what I've seen. Your better off doing what your doing here, posting up pics and getting some advice. 
Regardless of what the local shops are telling you your draw length is to long, I'd start by shortening it up by 1" and then going from there. Also like Melissa mentioned the release is to long for you...See if there's anyway to shorten the connecting rod from the strap to the release head up. In the pic you posted above look at your release hand index finger, your really reaching for the trigger and that's a dead give away it's to long. You should be able to hook your finger around the trigger and it contact your finger in the joint. With you having to reach for it like you are it makes it very easy to punch the trigger. You want a deep hook around the trigger and insted of tripping the trigger with your finger you want to pull through the shot with your back muscles...Think of it as trying to pull your release hand elbow straight back like your pulling a big rubber band.
Another thing you might wanna look into is moving the peep sight "& kisser button" up a little bit since your anchoring pretty high up on your face. 
Your leaning back alot in the picture, that's a dead give away with a to long draw length...You want your spine to stay straight up and down and your shoulders/arms to form a T "think of it like a cross +".
As far as your grip, you are gripping the bow, even if it's just with your finger tips...You want your fingers relaxed and laying at a 45degree angle, just kinda hanging down along the front of the grip. 
If you want the ultimate in a form check get your pics together and get ahold of archerytalk user "Nuts & Bolts" ...He's the guru on here when it comes to form.:thumbs_up


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## psargeant (Aug 1, 2004)

Draw length looks a little bit long, but the thing that really gets me is the release. It is way on the long side from the picture. It looks to me like you are reaching for it and just getting the trigger with the very tip of you finger. It should be short enough the you are getting the trigger into the first joint of your finger at a bare minimum...

I unfortunately don't know too much about that model bow, but the shop you bought it from should be able to shorten it for you. I'd ask them to take it down 1 inch in draw length...


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## Horses&Hunting (Oct 10, 2007)

Thanks guys. I gave the release back, told him what was going on. He cut it down a bit for me. He told me to keep it. Which was real nice of him. But I still really don't like it to much, but didn't want to tell him that lol.


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## absolutecool (Mar 26, 2006)

What kind of nocks do you need?


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## Hoosier bowman (Jan 10, 2010)

z28melissa said:


> Great pic, do you see how your elbow is dropping down (right arm)? Your forearm should be flat; parallel with your arrow. You're also leaning back and pulling your head back. All 3 things point to a *draw length issue*, but go ahead and post this up in the General section and see what others say. What do I know
> 
> Your pro shop will have more nocks.


OK, I know I am a guy and I'm not really supposed to be on this thread, but I am just going to the link Melissa gave in the General forum. 

I just wanted to help out. I really think her DL is fine. (The nock of the arrow is right in-line with her right eye :thumbs_up , which shows proper length.) The issue is her anchor point. Her right arm is too far back. She should be touching her cheek bone with her first knuckles. To attain a better anchor, she needs a shorter release. I suggest she shoot a t-handle and see if she likes it. With a t-handle release it is much easier to get a solid anchor because all your fingers can contact your jaw bone and stay still. 

Granted, I am just a 15 year-old GUY  who is trying to give advice to a woman, but I do know shat I am talking about most of the time. 

Good luck.

Later,
Bowman


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## Horses&Hunting (Oct 10, 2007)

What is a T-Handle release? Never heard of it. 
Bowman you know more than I do about this type of stuff than I do. When it comes to working on bows or something of that nature I have no clue. I can tell you about the extra stuff on the bows. Like strings, stabilizer, peeps. Things like that. So if I change my release and anchor point that should fix itself? Like the leaning back and whatnot? I'm not even sure if I can get another release, we are moving and things are so tight its not even funny. lol.
The nocks I'm looking for are for easton epic st 500s. They are green. Not sure what kind they are. Thanks again guys/gals for all your help.


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## z28melissa (Feb 8, 2007)

Hoosier bowman said:


> OK, I know I am a guy and I'm not really supposed to be on this thread, but I am just going to the link Melissa gave in the General forum.
> 
> I just wanted to help out. I really think her DL is fine. (The nock of the arrow is right in-line with her right eye :thumbs_up , which shows proper length.) The issue is her anchor point. Her right arm is too far back. She should be touching her cheek bone with her first knuckles. To attain a better anchor, she needs a shorter release. I suggest she shoot a t-handle and see if she likes it. With a t-handle release it is much easier to get a solid anchor because all your fingers can contact your jaw bone and stay still.
> 
> ...


I agree on the shorter release, and that should be the first fix. I assume by t-handle you're referring to a thumb release? But I'm betting that if her head weren't pulled back, the nock would not be in line with her eye...


and don't feel bad about being in the women's forum! We're equal opportunity here lol


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## z28melissa (Feb 8, 2007)

Horses&Hunting said:


> What is a T-Handle release? Never heard of it.
> Bowman you know more than I do about this type of stuff than I do. When it comes to working on bows or something of that nature I have no clue. I can tell you about the extra stuff on the bows. Like strings, stabilizer, peeps. Things like that. So if I change my release and anchor point that should fix itself? Like the leaning back and whatnot? I'm not even sure if I can get another release, we are moving and things are so tight its not even funny. lol.
> The nocks I'm looking for are for easton epic st 500s. They are green. Not sure what kind they are. Thanks again guys/gals for all your help.


Shorten that release up as much as it'll go, take another side photo like before, and we'll see where we're at  It may feel odd because (hopefully) your elbow will be up where it needs to be and your wrist won't be bent; you'll get used to it though and it will probably feel better.

If after that, it looks like your DL is still too long (honestly I still think it will be), the shop that sold you your bow SHOULD make the DL adjustment at no charge.


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## z28melissa (Feb 8, 2007)

J-Daddy said:


> Melissa has you on the right path....Here's my take on most "ProShops" telling you what to do as far as form & draw length= Let it go in one ear and out the other.
> Half the guys working in shops dont have a clue when it comes to proper form from what I've seen. Your better off doing what your doing here, posting up pics and getting some advice.
> Regardless of what the local shops are telling you your draw length is to long, I'd start by shortening it up by 1" and then going from there. Also like Melissa mentioned the release is to long for you...See if there's anyway to shorten the connecting rod from the strap to the release head up. In the pic you posted above look at your release hand index finger, your really reaching for the trigger and that's a dead give away it's to long. You should be able to hook your finger around the trigger and it contact your finger in the joint. With you having to reach for it like you are it makes it very easy to punch the trigger. You want a deep hook around the trigger and insted of tripping the trigger with your finger you want to pull through the shot with your back muscles...Think of it as trying to pull your release hand elbow straight back like your pulling a big rubber band.


I dug out my wrist release and snapped a few pics for you for reference, this is the length I like; and I've noticed most archers prefer the same or even shorter yet. I don't use this release this time of year, if your release doesn't go short enough you're welcome to borrow this one for a few weeks and see if you like it better! Just shoot me a pm


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## Horses&Hunting (Oct 10, 2007)

Wow, I don't even know if the one I have will go that short. What kind of release is that one? Looks nice. I posted a used old bow so hopefully someone will either buy it or trade for something. I would love to take you up on your offer. But I have such bad luck with things, knowing me it would break or something worse. This why I'm low on arrows and everything else lolol. Thanks again for your offer tho. Was real nice of you.


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## Cheerioette (Apr 16, 2010)

Hoosier bowman said:


> I just wanted to help out. I really think her DL is fine. (The nock of the arrow is right in-line with her right eye :thumbs_up , which shows proper length.) The issue is her anchor point.


This is why I love AT... learn something new everyday. 

Sorry, I have nothing more to add to your thread! I am still learning like you.


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## z28melissa (Feb 8, 2007)

Horses&Hunting said:


> Wow, I don't even know if the one I have will go that short. What kind of release is that one? Looks nice. I posted a used old bow so hopefully someone will either buy it or trade for something. I would love to take you up on your offer. But I have such bad luck with things, knowing me it would break or something worse. This why I'm low on arrows and everything else lolol. Thanks again for your offer tho. Was real nice of you.


It's a tru-fire, think it runs around $60-$70 new. Actually it's just a spare, I bought it one day when I had forgotten my release and wanted to shoot! I don't think you could break it if you tried but if you did, it wouldn't be the end of the world :wink: Just shoot me your address if you decide you'd like to borrow it for a while.


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## Outdoor Gal (Oct 23, 2003)

There's been some GREAT info on this thread.. especially the importance of a release that fits properly!  

Re: "form" and "draw length"... When I look back at old photos of myself at full draw, I see a LOT of the "leaning back" look. I even found a group of pics with the draw length so short, my bow-holding arm was bent so much at the elbow it looked like I borrowed a child's bow, but yet I was still leaned back. So, as has been said before on other threads here in the women's forum... a lot of times it's something as simple as one or more of the following.. trouble seeing through the peep (size and/or location), release size/anchor position, or a "bad habit" and "posture" issue!  

Between prior years of involvement with various other sports and activities, plus some old "nagging" injuries, I had a heck of a time developing proper archery posture/form, or even having a sense that my body was all out of alignment! :wink:

After taking some time away from archery to recover from injuries, I made a point of trying to start off with better posture, even stood in front of a full-length mirror to compare what I was seeing with how it felt, etc. I reviewed/reminded myself that I needed to FIRST put myself in the proper posture as part of my shot sequence... THEN bring the bow to ME!  I'd go to a safe place to practice.. close my eyes.. go into proper "posture", draw bow with eyes still closed, then have someone take pictures. I still don't have "picture perfect" form, but it's a LOT better than it used to be, AND my drawlength looks a lot better.. even though the DL is the exact same as it was years ago when it "looked" too long! 

So, a better-fitting release, getting used to a different anchor point, and reinforcing the habit of good posture with weight evenly distributed onto both feet etc.. you'll be lookin' sharp and shootin' sharp!  And you'll have a much better idea if your draw length is optimal for you, or not!  
Good luck with your archery endeavers, as well as the chaos and stress of moving!


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## Horses&Hunting (Oct 10, 2007)

Thanks for the great advice. I just so happen to have a huge mirror I could dig out to try. I've been working on the way I stand and my release arm. Getting that nice a straight. Other than you gals and the 2 pro shops I have no one to help me. I talked to a lady that lives in town and she said she shoots a hoyt. I told her about how I can't find anyone to shoot with. She pretty much blew me off. Kinda bugged me a bite cause, it would have been nice to find someone to shoot with. Oh well lol. 

The move thing is super stressful. We are left here to do all the work. Painting, cleaning, moving sale. Everything, with no help from anyone. We've almost got the money to move, just wish people would stop today and buy something lol. I've sold most of my good fishing poles, couple of my guns, just a bunch of stuff. I have other guns and fishing stuff so it doesn't bother me. I told me better half when we move and get jobs. I'm getting one heck of a xmas gift, seeing how I sold my stuff so we could move lol. (I'm thinking new bow on layaway lol) haha. Ok better stop before I talk yalls ear off.


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## z28melissa (Feb 8, 2007)

Horses&Hunting said:


> Thanks for the great advice. I just so happen to have a huge mirror I could dig out to try. I've been working on the way I stand and my release arm. Getting that nice a straight. Other than you gals and the 2 pro shops I have no one to help me. I talked to a lady that lives in town and she said she shoots a hoyt. I told her about how I can't find anyone to shoot with. She pretty much blew me off. Kinda bugged me a bite cause, it would have been nice to find someone to shoot with. Oh well lol.
> 
> The move thing is super stressful. We are left here to do all the work. Painting, cleaning, moving sale. Everything, with no help from anyone. We've almost got the money to move, just wish people would stop today and buy something lol. I've sold most of my good fishing poles, couple of my guns, just a bunch of stuff. I have other guns and fishing stuff so it doesn't bother me. I told me better half when we move and get jobs. I'm getting one heck of a xmas gift, seeing how I sold my stuff so we could move lol. (I'm thinking new bow on layaway lol) haha. Ok better stop before I talk yalls ear off.


Dang, if I lived near you I'd lend a hand! And I'd sure as heck fling some arrows with you - I'm in the same boat somewhat, there are no females around here to shoot with, at least not on a regular basis. You're not moving to Michigan are you


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## Horses&Hunting (Oct 10, 2007)

Thanks for the offer, an extra hand would come in handy thats for sure. We got the bathroom painted. One bedroom done. Kitchen ceiling is done today. Have 3 bedrooms to go, computer room, rest of the kitchen, laundry room, and the living room. So alot to do still. 
lol. Nope moving to Pa. Hopefully there will be someone around that would like to shoot. Are you hiring? I could move there if so lol.


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## absolutecool (Mar 26, 2006)

Today my husband and I shot, just us at a tourney. It was kinda nice and not as bad for me as shooting spots in the back yard. I like shooting 3d's more than at spots. I did blank one target but I am battling the dreaded TP again.....and it sucks. 

I am bad about leaning back also. I think it is a lady thing...lol. One thing that can help you is when you get to full draw and anchored just force yourself to push your body towards the target. I have started doing that and it helps to straighted me up.

Don't be afraid to take Melissa up on her offer to borrow her release, she sent me some books to check out...Melissa is a great gal!! She also makes some sweet stabilizer labels also...lol


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## Horses&Hunting (Oct 10, 2007)

Well I went ahead and took Melissa up on her offer. I have to say she is one of the nicest people out there. Thanks again. 

I received the release today and gave it a go. I must say it is way different than the other release for sure. I also have to say I like this release alot. I took a few pics and hopefully I straighten out a bit. I haven't really been able to group anything for some time. But this is what happen. Please don't mind the mess in the back ground. We are trying to get stuff to the dump. Slowly but surely. Let me know what ya think.


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## z28melissa (Feb 8, 2007)

Heyyy lookin better!! Now try and get that elbow up :wink:


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## psargeant (Aug 1, 2004)

Looking better already, but you are definitely still leaning back a good bit, and your back elbow is way too low...

I think that likely it is at least in part draw length, but I would like to see you lower your anchor point before making other significant changes...drop your anchor down so that you are feeling your knuckle along the bottom of your jaw bone. You will need to raise your peep sight after you do this. I still; think the bow is going to end up 1-2" too long, but that might help some.

Let us know how it goes...


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## Horses&Hunting (Oct 10, 2007)

Will do. I'll work on that sometime today. I plan on taking my bow in tomorrow as I had the new string put on and need to have it adjusted a bit I think. I will ask this guy more questions. Hes going to hate me when I'm doing with the questions lol. Thanks again guys. Like I said before all the help is appreciated.


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## litigress1 (Apr 26, 2010)

OMG- I have been going through the same issues. Constantly talking myself through every step. My husband has been my coach and good at it, but I need to concentrate when I'm alone. I rethink all that has been said to me. Pay attention to your grip when in full draw. I'm reminded to relax my grip and hold the bow in the exact same spot in my hand, not allowing the arrows to fly differently. You are obviously trying very hard to concentrate on your form. Also, do you shoot fingers or with a release? Be careful not to release to abruptly. Just this week, my husband changed my arrow rest and what a difference that made on my groups. After he installed the new rest, he also did some fine tuning of the rest and the sight. I am soooo happy with the results. Keep practicing-Don't get discouraged!!!! See if you can have someone knowledgeable fine tune your bow. Good Luck and hope this helped-


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