# Center shot problem (fingers)



## Jorge Oliveira (Aug 13, 2004)

I think I've overcome most of my form flaws with the ProTec, I've started grouping fairly consistently in the last week.

But my tune demands a quite to the left of center arrow tip, and bare shafts nock side still shows a bit of lean to the left (but they group with arrows).

The cable guard is at the 11 o'clock position, quite less than Hoyt's recommended 2 o'clock setting, so I suppose it's not cable guard torque related.
Vanes doesn't shows any sign of conatact, rest is a Cavalier Free Flyte + plunger.

I've shoot both alum and carbons, same result.

Any clues for the reason?

Thanks,


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## Ian (May 21, 2002)

Isn't it supposed to be left of center for finger shooting? If your right handed opposite for left hand. About how much left is it from inside riser to center arrow? I used to set it down the middle of the string then move it left so the tip was showing like how they show in the tuning guide. Then play with the draw weight up or down and get the bare shaft hitting with the fletched ones.


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## Jorge Oliveira (Aug 13, 2004)

Bare shafts ARE hitting together with arrows, so I think tuning is OK.

But there's about two shaft diameters showing up (my eye guess, hard to measure) when one looks from the string side.

Visual center has been determined through measurement, marking lines in two pieces of card taped to the limbs (Hoyt split ones).
And the ProTec riser has kind of a V groove in the shelf; the arrow is quite slanted to the left relative to it.

I just wonder why so much?

If I move the rest to the right, so just the tip is to the left of the string, as shown in the Easton tuning guide, the shaft hits the bale with a marked slant, nock to the left (like a large left tear in paper).
But bare shafts stll impact with arrows...


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## Hollowpoint (Jul 10, 2003)

Have you tried a stiffer plunger?
How far past the plunger on your rest are your arrows sticking? 
If I get mine too far past, the bare shafts will go tail left even if they are too stiff, beacause they are trying to wrap around the riser more beacause of the extra over-hang combined with the paradox of a finger release.
Good luck, Hollowpoint.


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## Jorge Oliveira (Aug 13, 2004)

*H P*

Well, not stiffer than a piece of matchstick in place of the spring  
I've tested with the old Center Flipper also, same result.

The 29" Epics about 1", the 30" 2216 2", the 31" 7595 3". All show the same behaviour.

I understand your setup is dead center.
One thing I did not test was to start dead center and move a bit at a time to the left. Could this be the reason? Too far to the left to begin with?


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## Hollowpoint (Jul 10, 2003)

I'm going to the range in about 30 minuets.......I'll pull my flipper out 1/8" and shoot it through paper. I'll let you know what happens when I get back.  
Right now it is pefectly in line and shooting bullet holes, with 1/2" over over hang and 22 series arrows.


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## Ian (May 21, 2002)

2 shafts out that is way out there. What's the setup? Draw weight, draw length, poundage arrows etc...


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## Jorge Oliveira (Aug 13, 2004)

Bow - ProTec LX Command cams, 65% L.O, 42#, 29.75" draw.

Arrows:

Epic 400, 29", 121g total tip weight, 3 - 4" Duravanes, nock;
XX75 2216, 30", 128g total tip weight, same vanes, unibushing+nock;
GT XT 7595, 31", 115g total tip weight, same vanes, nock.

All of them group with the corresponding bare shafts. The 2216 ALWAYS impact to the left of the carbons, but this may be unrelated.


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## Ian (May 21, 2002)

Only the epics are close to the right spine the other two are too stiff. Try increasing the poundage to 50lbs and get the tip up to 150 grains 55lbs with the 121g. 

2216 you need to be at 55lbs. The GT's 60lbs to get it spined in the green.


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## Jorge Oliveira (Aug 13, 2004)

We still have a mistery here.

The Epics were 32", gave perfect tune with my old PSE wheeler. The plunger pressure would allow for adjustment from slightly right to slightly left.

When I moved to the ProTec, they became quite weak - bare shafts would hit right of arrows.
I started to shorten them until arrows & shafts flew toghether (even with a piece of matchstick in place of the plunger's spring or a Center Flipper).

The same was done with the 2216 - 30" was the size necessary to tune them.

The 7595 has been just a guess - 31", shot them and arrows and shafts flew together.


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## Hollowpoint (Jul 10, 2003)

I moved the flipper out 1/4", and the tear was exactly the same as it was set dead center.
the 75/95's are too stiff IMO.


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## Jorge Oliveira (Aug 13, 2004)

*H P*

That's interesting.
Today I moved the rest all the way to the center - and the shaft is hitting the butt almost perfectly perpendicular, better than with it to the left! Go figure!

I suppose the 7595 is too stiff - I've purchased them to see why I couldn't fine tune using the plunger spring (the arrows never went left, even the 7595, with the matchstick).

Maybe with the new center shot I can fine tune - did not do it today.

Sometimes one has to just shoot! :smile:


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## broken arrow123 (Nov 13, 2002)

*bow tuning*

Jorge:
This thread is interesting in the fact that you say you are shooting groups with your arrow point about 2 arrow diamenters outside the bow string and with a match stick keeping the cushion plunger stiff.
You also say that your bare shafts shoot with your fletched arrows, which only means that your nocking point is relatively set correctly.
First, have you ever tried tuning, using the French method ?
This walk-back method works very well in getting a very good tune, which can be refined even more.
The French, (walk back method), of tuning indicates weather the arrow rest is in or out too far, ( first adjustments), and if the plunger spring tension is either too stiff or weak.
To use this method, you need to adjust the arrow point about half the diamenter of the arrow outside the bow string and the spring tension so the plunger moves in about 1/4 inch with little pressure. 
You also need to shoot atleast 2 series before making any adjustments. disregarding shots that you know were bad.

I shoot 39 pounds @ 27 5/8 DL", using several different sized arrows, (Gold Tip ultra light 600's, Gold Tip Series 22's and Easton 2114's), 27" to 27 1/2 "arrow shaft, with total arrow length between 28 1/4 and 29 inches, with only changing the nocking point a couple of turns to account for the arrow diamenter. The total arrow weight varies between 270 grains to 400 plus grains and the groups are acceptable. The 600's group around 2" @ 20 yards and the Series 22's at 2 1/2" @ 20 yards, with the 2114's at 3 1/2" @ 20 yards. In a pinch, I can leave the nocking point alone and still group well.
I switch back and forth between the 600's, (for spots), and 2114's for 3-D.

http://home.earthlink.net/~baswb/archery/

www.nasppa.net


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## Jorge Oliveira (Aug 13, 2004)

*broken arrow123*



broken arrow123 said:


> Jorge:
> This thread is interesting in the fact that you say you are shooting groups with your arrow point about 2 arrow diamenters outside the bow string and with a match stick keeping the cushion plunger stiff.


No, what I mean to say is that when tuning, I start by using a matchstick in place of the spring.
If bare shafts are a bit overspined, they will hit left of the arrows. Then I place the spring back and adjust the spring so shafts and arrows hit together (side wise).
For some reason, the shafts as described above never went left.

At shooting time, I went back to a stiif spring just in case.

Re the French/walk back tune:

The only place I have to shoot nowadays is an indoor range with a maximum distance of 23m.
I would really like to do a walk back, but...

Thanks for your ideas.


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## broken arrow123 (Nov 13, 2002)

*tining*

If you do not have a location to shoot the "walk back" method, you can use this method and it works well.
From 10 yards or meters, place a piece of cardboard with a horziontal and a vertical line, (1/2" - 3/4" tape), about 12 to 18 inches long and shoot 6 to eight arrows. First across the horizontal line several times. (nocking point) If the arrows are not straight, (within your shooting capiabilitie), adjust your nocking point up , (first), or down until you are satified that is your straighest line.
Then shoot 6 to 8 arrows down or up the verticle line and adjust your arrow rest in or out, (first), to narrow the gap between the arrows. Then work on the spring tension to narrow the gap even more.

Did not post the way I put it on the thread, so I deleted it. :angry: 

http://home.earthlink.net/~baswb/archery/

www.nasppa.net

Last edited on 4/13/05


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## broken arrow123 (Nov 13, 2002)

*Tuning*

O'well, they did not post the way they were set up.


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## Jorge Oliveira (Aug 13, 2004)

*broken arrow123*

Could the figure you were tryng to draw some of the presented in figure 5.2 of this document?

http://www.tenzone.u-net.com/Equipment/tuning/pdfs/tuning01.pdf


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## broken arrow123 (Nov 13, 2002)

*tuning*

Jorge:
The figures I was drawing is on page 15 of the document in your reply.
The way I tune my bow is:
I clamp my bow in a vise, (padded of course), at the sight window and plum it vertically. The string does not have to be level. I then put an arrow on the string and let it hang down, I then put a plum bob on the string and let it hang as close to the arrow point as possible. Then I move the cushion plunger so the point of the arrow is one half the arrow shaft outside the string. That is my starting point.
Next, I set the spring tension to a soft setting. The button moves easily. No real resistance until the button is in about 1/8 inch. That also is a starting point.
I set the nocking point at7/16th above horzontal as a starting point.
My next step is to shoot 6 arrows along the horizontal line atleast twice before making any adjustment of the nocking point to see if the result is about the same. I move my nocking point in one turn increments, shooting two ends before making addittional adjustmrnts and do so until I am satified.
I like my nocking point slightly low of any fletched group, not in the middle of the fletched group.
I then shoot 6 arrows along the vertical line and adjust the rest in or out in 1/4 turn increments until further in and out adjustments only open up the gap. Then comes the spring tension adjustment. I adjust the spring tension in one half turn adjustment to see if the gap opens up and how much. I do this until the gap opens and then back it up until I achive a straight as line as I am capable of shooting.
The final test is to shoot 4 to 6 arrows at 20 yards or meters to check the group and then go to a range and shoot 6 arrows at 40, 50 and 60 yards, as that will tell the tale.
You can change arrow point weight, move the nock slightly left or right, (1/32 to 1/16 of an inch, make minor adjustments to the arrow rest or spring tension until your group tightens to about two inches.
Take several days to tune and when you are tuning, if you get tired or inconsistant, stop! and start another day.

As a note, I use magnetic arrow rests, so there is no resistance to a vane or feather hitting it.
Being right handed, I use a one degree left offset on the Dura vanes so the vane moves in, should a vane make contact and about a 1/32 nock offset to the left of the index vane. :smile: 
Hope this helps.

http://home.earthlink.net/~baswb/archery/

www.nasppa.net


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## Jorge Oliveira (Aug 13, 2004)

*broken arrow123*

Thanks a lot for your help, I will tune as per your posting.


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## jarlicker (Jul 29, 2002)

Jorge -
I am sorry to say all of your arrows are much too stiff for your 42 lbs. set up. 
You will go nuts trying to tune these arrows. 
Then never get it right.
Because of the short distances you are shooting you could add some really heavy points and maybe get them to work. 
Add more draw weight to the bow.

When setting up the centershot, line up the string down the center of the grip and center of the limb pocket. 
Line up the arrow down the center or just a touch left of center of the string.
This is really the only position the rest will work if you change distances while shooting.

The walk back method is an excellent test to check rest position.

Do not live and die by the bare shaft tuning method. 
It is just a starting point.
This is usually a good test to see if your arrows will spine correctly for your given set up.
If you can not get the bare shafts to fly with the fletched arrows your arrow spine is wrong. 
Changes must be made. 
Adjust the arrow set up or change arrow size. 
The bare shaft test tells you which way you need to go stiffer or weaker. 
Use a arrow spine chart or ask for help before sellecting an arrows size.
Arrows cost too much $$$$$$$$ to be buying the wrong size.

After you get the bare shaft test arrows to group together you still need to group tune the arrows.

This usually requires a little nocking point adjustment (usually Higher) and then a poundage adjustment.
Every time you move the nocking point your spine reading will change.
You will have to adjust the draw weight.
Usually if you need to move the nocking point up you will need to add weight.
If you lower the nocking point, you will need to lower the draw weight.
Usually not more than 3/4 of a turn on the limb bolts.


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## toxo (Jun 19, 2002)

*Finger tuning*

Paper tuning is a waste of time.....if you shoot at 5 yards it will shoot fiferently at 15 yards. Broken arrow is right on all he says. Group tune. What works for you might not work for me...arrow spine, length of arrow, bow weight and how the string come off your fingers. Do you think the arrow come off your fingers the same way every time? NO WAY!!!!! That is why you get some lefts and rights. Bare shaft tuing is foolish!!!!! PSE said that 30 years ago. If there is any contact with vanes or feathers you will not notice any contact because there is no contact with feather or vanes on the arrows!!!!! Only tune with the fletching on the shafts..
Also have some one watch your shoting. Some times you might get a good release some times not only some one watching you can tell if you got a bad release or you moved the bow or you plucked the string,etc.etc. 
French tuning works. the Cross method works....worry about group tuning that also has a lot to do with your finger release method. But some one watching you is in order here also...standing behind you watching your form.
Broken arrow is right on with a lot of his points. Forget about bare shaft tuning, forget aboput paper tuning,,,get the groups to gether and the arrows going in straigth with the fletching ON the shafts!!!!What do you think? The vanes or feathers STEER the arrow. 
I shoot a funnel rest with both vanes and feather and my vanes and feathers shoot identically. And my rest does not freeze or my arrows fly funny. It takes about 10 yards minimum for an arrow to straighten out shooting either fingers or release, who knew that?


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## Jorge Oliveira (Aug 13, 2004)

Thanks, guys

I will take all the advices in account.


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## broken arrow123 (Nov 13, 2002)

*Tuning*

Jorge:
I ment to say that you can move the nock up or down in 1/32 to 1/16 increments, one or two turns at a time.
When I use my Gold Tip series 22's, I need to raise my nocking point two turns.
To be able to turn a nock without damage to your bow string, (like those brass ones can do), I replaced the metal nock with a tie-on nock, which you can turn with your fingers without any fear of it slipping as long as you tie it on tight.  
I use a different color serving for my tie-on nock.
For you information, here it how to make one: Cut a piece of serving about 10 inches long, fold it equally in half over your bow string with equal string length on each side of the bow string and then make an over hand knot, bring the string up and make another over hand knot opposite the first one, (I use pliers to pull them tight as possible), repeat this process, one on top and one under until you have 10 of them moving from where the arrow will be nocked, toward your kisser button or peep. When you do the 10th one, leave the loop open so you can take the ends of the string after you formed the over hand knot back under, crossing them and bringing them back up through the open loop and then pulling them as tight as possible, locking the loop. cut the remaining string close to the knot, leaving about 1/8th of string sticking out. Then apply fletch tite or any fletching cement, over the entire knot and smoothe the end threads down so nothing is sticking up. let it sit over night. When it is dry, you should not be able to turn it with your fingers until you break it loose with a pair of pliers, (just enough pressure on the pliers so as not to crush it), a quater turn should break it loose. Then you can turn it up or down, like a nut on a bolt. Give it a push up or down, to be sure that you initally have it tight enough so it does not slip. 
This type of nock does: make easy nock adjustments with out tools, increases arrow speed up to 2 FPS, does not cut your bow string when you make an adjustment and it is easy to replace and does last, usually out lasts your string.  
If you have a problem understanding this, PM me with your email address and I will send you a drawing.

http://home.earthlink.net/~baswb/archery/

www.nasppa.net

From your address bar or just click on them. 
.


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## Jorge Oliveira (Aug 13, 2004)

I use a tie on nock, never liked the copper/rubber ones exactly because they cannot be easily adjusted.

But I finish with a knot and burn the thread to make a blob - as it's done with a D-loop. I will try the finish you are suggesting next time.

And I've paced one above and another below the nock - just in case...


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## broken arrow123 (Nov 13, 2002)

*tie on npck*

you can still burn the ends.
I used one below, until I nocked under it in error. After that, I only use the one.

I needed to tighten my spring tension 1/4 turn after shooting groups at 40, 50, 60 and 70 yards.
Everything looks ok now.
I still have a soft spring. As long as you have a good follow through, you only need light spring tension.
The stiffer the spring tension is, the more shooting errors are compounded and that is also true if the spring tension is too waek, besides the arrows going right at long distances and the group opening up. :thumbs_do 

www.nasppa.net

http://home.earthlink.net/~baswb/archery/


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