# My thoughts on tuning



## Louro (Jun 19, 2009)

outstanding post, a lot of good information. Thanks......:thumbs_up


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## Neuralgia (Mar 25, 2008)

so NO walk back tuning? Can you elaborate a bit more on this.


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## fletched (May 10, 2006)

Neuralgia said:


> so NO walk back tuning? Can you elaborate a bit more on this.


I never walk back tune. I never need to. Walk back tuning will help you set you center shot but so will paper tuning. Paper tuning can tell me if I am torqueing the bow, if I an under/over spined, if my centershot is off, if my rest is set properly amd if my cam/cams are timed/position properly. I hsve nothing against walk back tuning, I played around with it but I find that paper tuning, if done right, will give you great results. I just don't understand where someone says they paper tune then walk back tune then broadhead tune. Apparantly it never was tuned if another tuning method was needed. If your second tuning method forces you to make adjustments then you have undone the first tuning method. Paper tuning has been used for years and has had excellent results. I find that most, not all, people walk back tune because they can't get their bow to paper tune. They give up and give it a walk back tune and say it is tuned. I believe if it won't paper tune then something isn't right and some changes need to be made. The purpose of tuning is to get good arrow flight. If your arrows fly good, they will group good and shoot broadheads good. That is my observation.


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## Spikealot (May 27, 2009)

*Just my old worn 2 cents...*

Sorry but I dont totally agree with the OP.
I can paper shoot any of my bows - with field points & fletching - and make them shoot bullet holes thru paper from 3 yards out to 20 yards, or more, but then when I screw on broadheads - they will not automatically impact exactly the same as the field tipped arrows or shoot bulletholes thru the paper. Some heads are better than others but they all will effect your arrow.
They may weigh the same as your field tips (gotta be) but they add length and wings to your arrow.
Yes - all the cam timing/rotation, ATA, BH, etc... needs to be set up first or nothing will turn out right but - if you are a hunter and are going to shoot broadheads - the final step to all of it is getting them to fly straight and impact at the same spot as field points. After all - a broadhead thru the heart is your final goal aint it? Now if this is considered de-tuning your bow - so be it. Bottom line is that all your arrows need to have the same poi. If you absolutely cant make that happen - then you probably are shooting the wrong spine. And along that line - if your setting up your rig for hunting - always error to the stiff side on the spine chart. Weak arrows and broadheads are not a good combination.
And your tiller setting does not have to be equal. Once you have everything dialed in - try playing with your tiller. Shoot a good group of arrows at the distance you normally shoot at. Then turn your top limb bolt out 1/4 turn and shoot another group. Is it tighter? Ya get where I'm going... Adjust the limb bolts 1/4 turn at a time till you have your tightest groups. This is de-tuning I guess...
My hunting bow will put broadheads (Magnus Buzzcuts) right on top of my field points out to 65 yards (I havent shot them farther than that) but if I shoot the field points thru paper - its not bullet holes at 3 or 12 yards. 
I also dont believe you can set up a bow for someone else to shoot. You can
set the cam timing (really close) ATA, BH, etc with a draw board but you cant final tune it with out the owner shooting it. I can set up a bow that shoots perfect for me in all respects - but if my wife shoots it - may not be anywhere close. Everyone shoots differently and the bow has to be adjusted for them.
... dont mean to be obnoxious or diss anyone - just think that YOU need to go thru all the tuning methods and decide what works for you...


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## fletched (May 10, 2006)

Spikealot said:


> Sorry but I dont totally agree with the OP.
> I can paper shoot any of my bows - with field points & fletching - and make them shoot bullet holes thru paper from 3 yards out to 20 yards, or more, but then when I screw on broadheads - they will not automatically impact exactly the same as the field tipped arrows or shoot bulletholes thru the paper. Some heads are better than others but they all will effect your arrow.
> They may weigh the same as your field tips (gotta be) but they add length and wings to your arrow.
> Yes - all the cam timing/rotation, ATA, BH, etc... needs to be set up first or nothing will turn out right but - if you are a hunter and are going to shoot broadheads - the final step to all of it is getting them to fly straight and impact at the same spot as field points. After all - a broadhead thru the heart is your final goal aint it? Now if this is considered de-tuning your bow - so be it. Bottom line is that all your arrows need to have the same poi. If you absolutely cant make that happen - then you probably are shooting the wrong spine. And along that line - if your setting up your rig for hunting - always error to the stiff side on the spine chart. Weak arrows and broadheads are not a good combination.
> ...


When intially setting up a bow it is best to set the tiller even, if you want to make some adjustments to it later then do so. I meant it as a starting point. Tillering a bow will change the angle of the bow in respect to how it sits in your hand. This can balance the bow for the shooter. Most bows have good grip angles and are easy to adapt to. If you shoot with a totally relaxed grip, it will self pressurize most of the time.

I never made reference to tuning a bow and it will shoot the same for everyone. I just went over the basics of getting a bow set up properly so it can be tuned and gave some info on how to paper tune. Not everyone tunes their own bows so some basic tuning methods will get the bow very close.

An arrow won't rip a perfect hole at every yardage. That is why I suggest shooting at 3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,11,12 or longer to get an overall picture of what the arrow is doing so the proper adjustments can be made. I never said it will rip a perfect hole at every yard. If you baseyou adjustments off of one yardage, you can be mislead.

There are a lot of different broadheads. I too shoot the magnus stinger and use the 2 bladed design. I use these heads because they fly very good and hit the same hole as my field points. Some head will and some won't. I would suggest trying different heads and find one the flies best for you bow. Some heads just don't fly well and these heads need to be avoided. Do to higher speeds and shorter bows, it is more important to choose the right heads. If the heads are flying and grouping good but doesn't hit the same place as you field points, then move the sight.


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## Spikealot (May 27, 2009)

Right on .


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## goatranch (Sep 11, 2004)

Lets talk more about tiller. Its something you don't here much about.

So you are saying to set the tiller measurement even then set your pull weight or poundage. Correct?


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## fletched (May 10, 2006)

goatranch said:


> Lets talk more about tiller. Its something you don't here much about.
> 
> So you are saying to set the tiller measurement even then set your pull weight or poundage. Correct?


Yes, set the tiller even then set the poundage.

Tiller is the measurement between the cable and the limb just as it leaves the pocket. To set the tiller even, tighten both limbs all the way down and then back them off evenly to the poundage you desire. I suggest when you back your limb bolts out to the poundage you desire, loosen them about a half turn more then tighten it back up to the desired poundage. This will help keep the bolts from backing out on their own. By stopping in a tightening direction, you load the bolt threads on the pull rather than the push.

When you tighten one limb bolt more than the other, this will offset you tiller. This changes the angle at which the riser sits in the hand. This is mainly done to get the grip to fit the hand better. With todays bows, it really isn't neccessary. Also, when you tighten one limb bolt more than the other, it doesn't mean that one limb is pulling harder than the other. The poundage difference between the limbs will balance itself out between both limbs. When you tighten one limb bolt more than the other, it will move your nocking point toward the one you tighten up. The nocking point may have to be reset if you offset your tiller very much. The best way to know if you need to adjust your tiller is to pay attention to the way you aim. If you have a mental problem that keeps you from placing your pin on the target, tillering won't help. But if you have a natural problem with you pin wanting to sit below the target, you can tighten the bottom limb 1/2 to 1 turn but going 1/4 turn at a time and this will cause the bow to rise a little more than it usually does. If you have a problem with the pin sitting above the target, you can do the same to the top limb and it will bring the bow down. Sometimes a long heavy stabilizer will cause you to hang low and off setting the tiller, bottom limb in, will help you keep your bow pointed straighter.

You can even use your tiller to plow your garden in the spring.


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

All said and done, tuning a bow is a personal thing. To several degrees you don't need a perfectly tuned bow to win or hunt with. Of several top coaches throughout the United States, even the World, you best not blame your bow when the coach asks what's the problem. If it's broke, fine. If it's not prepare for a verbal horse whipping that will leave you broken and in tears or, if determined enough, give you a new mind set to become a better archer. Braden Gellentien made a comment not to long ago that borders on what I just wrote. His coach, none other than Terry Wunderle. Berie Pellerite has wrote articles of it several times and in his book, bows being tuned being irrelevant if the archer repeats their actions and has the proper mind set. Robert Ragsdale wrote of his son, Terry, having a bow that ripped paper by 4 inches and that same bow was used to win Vegas. He also wrote of wheel lean so bad that one would think the string would jump off, but that bow also won. I, myself, have seen bows that were set terrible for center shot, but shot so well that the owner didn't want to change it.

Not to undermine what I have said; I prefer to French tune my bows for 900 rounds and field. I think a bow should be reasonably timed and if anything the arrow to come out of the bow slightly tail high.
My indoor and 3D bow has never seen paper tuning other than to check for that mentioned. Both were setup with levels and a laser. My indoor target bow, new strings and set as above, was sighted while shooting a 5 spot - I shot a 298. Witnesses on hand.....


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## wyoming4x4 (Mar 16, 2009)

*Thanks for the info guys!*

Trying to get bow dialed in before indoor shoots begin. Waiting on new string/cable. My winners choice servings are frayed at eyelette's at cam. Was told that they are using to much weight to stretch strings. On the tillar tuning and cam syncing I did pretty much what ya'll discussed. Shot a decent score the other night 443 28x vegas. 2nd season freestyle shooting and getting better. This has been a serious learning curve. Some of us do not have a archery shop that is catered to target shooters. I have to do everything myself. Most guys I shoot with are strickly bowhunters and their attitude is I can kill a deer and thats good enough. I bowhunt and I want my bow to shoot better than good enough. Built me a draw board here recently and its a awesome tool. Haven't got the poundage scale yet but it helps on cam timing. Thanks and we'll talk soon.


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## wyoming4x4 (Mar 16, 2009)

*I agree with this, But?*



SonnyThomas said:


> All said and done, tuning a bow is a personal thing. To several degrees you don't need a perfectly tuned bow to win or hunt with. Of several top coaches throughout the United States, even the World, you best not blame your bow when the coach asks what's the problem. If it's broke, fine. If it's not prepare for a verbal horse whipping that will leave you broken and in tears or, if determined enough, give you a new mind set to become a better archer. Braden Gellentien made a comment not to long ago that borders on what I just wrote. His coach, none other than Terry Wunderle. Berie Pellerite has wrote articles of it several times and in his book, bows being tuned being irrelevant if the archer repeats their actions and has the proper mind set. Robert Ragsdale wrote of his son, Terry, having a bow that ripped paper by 4 inches and that same bow was used to win Vegas. He also wrote of wheel lean so bad that one would think the string would jump off, but that bow also won. I, myself, have seen bows that were set terrible for center shot, but shot so well that the owner didn't want to change it.
> 
> Not to undermine what I have said; I prefer to French tune my bows for 900 rounds and field. I think a bow should be reasonably timed and if anything the arrow to come out of the bow slightly tail high.
> My indoor and 3D bow has never seen paper tuning other than to check for that mentioned. Both were setup with levels and a laser. My indoor target bow, new strings and set as above, was sighted while shooting a 5 spot - I shot a 298. Witnesses on hand.....


For me part of the mindset is my bow is tuned and good to go. I'm a mechanic and its just the way I think. Whatever it takes to get my head right before tournament day. Catch you later and talk soon.


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## Neuralgia (Mar 25, 2008)

fletched said:


> An arrow won't rip a perfect hole at every yardage. That is why I suggest shooting at 3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,11,12 or longer to get an overall picture of what the arrow is doing so the proper adjustments can be made. I never said it will rip a perfect hole at every yard. If you baseyou adjustments off of one yardage, you can be mislead.


And that's the part of the Easton guide I do not trust. They say 4-6 feet only. :no:

What you say makes perfect sense.


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## fletched (May 10, 2006)

SonnyThomas said:


> All said and done, tuning a bow is a personal thing. To several degrees you don't need a perfectly tuned bow to win or hunt with. Of several top coaches throughout the United States, even the World, you best not blame your bow when the coach asks what's the problem. If it's broke, fine. If it's not prepare for a verbal horse whipping that will leave you broken and in tears or, if determined enough, give you a new mind set to become a better archer. Braden Gellentien made a comment not to long ago that borders on what I just wrote. His coach, none other than Terry Wunderle. Berie Pellerite has wrote articles of it several times and in his book, bows being tuned being irrelevant if the archer repeats their actions and has the proper mind set. Robert Ragsdale wrote of his son, Terry, having a bow that ripped paper by 4 inches and that same bow was used to win Vegas. He also wrote of wheel lean so bad that one would think the string would jump off, but that bow also won. I, myself, have seen bows that were set terrible for center shot, but shot so well that the owner didn't want to change it.
> 
> Not to undermine what I have said; I prefer to French tune my bows for 900 rounds and field. I think a bow should be reasonably timed and if anything the arrow to come out of the bow slightly tail high.
> My indoor and 3D bow has never seen paper tuning other than to check for that mentioned. Both were setup with levels and a laser. My indoor target bow, new strings and set as above, was sighted while shooting a 5 spot - I shot a 298. Witnesses on hand.....


You are right, a bow will repeat itself every shot. I have read the Terry Ragsdale story about the 4" rip. I also believe that a shooter like Terry Ragsdale can get by with things that most anyone else can't. He is a shooting machine with near perfect precision. Most of the indoor bows are built to be more stable and forgiving. The longer ata and slower speeds help make the bow more easy to shoot accurate. 

I believe a tuned bow will shoot better than an untuned bow.
I believe a tuned bow will group tighter and is less critical of human error.
I also believe that a bow was made for shooting and a person needs to spend more time shooting than tinkering.


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## fletched (May 10, 2006)

wyoming4x4 said:


> For me part of the mindset is my bow is tuned and good to go. I'm a mechanic and its just the way I think. Whatever it takes to get my head right before tournament day. Catch you later and talk soon.


:thumbs_up


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## geekster (Jun 25, 2007)

Great Post fletched


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