# Arrows selection - choosing the lesser of two evils - weaker or stiffer?



## vlesiv (Oct 20, 2013)

Hi, guys 

Wanted to ask two questions re arrows selection 

1. Just choosing the lesser of two evils - what's better for a competitive archer
a) weaker arrows - so, you get lighter points, cut them as much as possible and add a bit of weight at the end of the arrows to tune them?
b) stiffer arrows - so, you get heavier points and keep arrows as long as possible to make them tune

2. In general - let's say i tuned arrows with _X_ spine properly for _Y _draw weight. If I move 4 pounds higher in draw weight and keeping same length of arrows with, lets say, same point weight, what's the typical formula in selecting the right spine? + 100? +50? 
a) Example - I tuned Carbon Express arrows in 650 spine for #40 otf (I didn't, it's just an example) and then I decide to move to #4 heavier limbs, should i get 550 arrows spine? 

Thanks


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## chrstphr (Nov 23, 2005)

Stiffer.

4 ponuds is generally one arrow spine. 


Chris


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## ChefMatt (Nov 7, 2014)

Why stiffer? So point on is closer at shorter distances? 

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## grantmac (May 31, 2007)

I score better on the stiff side of the tune.


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## PregnantGuppy (Jan 15, 2011)

I'd go with stiffer arrows just to be able to cut them down or reduce point size later if the bow weight is increased. Most people don't decrease their bow weight, so this generally works well. This is assuming both arrows can be made to tune well, of course.

I would also agree that 4# is about one spine size up, but only at draw weights around 40#. For lower draw weights, the range of spines that work may be different. You can check the manufacturer's spine chart to double check.


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## chrstphr (Nov 23, 2005)

stiffer arrows can be tuned to group at one distance. weak arrows will generally not group well regardless of the tuning. Too touchy to finger releases. and a number of other reasons. Too much flex in the shaft is dangerous, too light an arrow is not good for the bow or limbs etc.


Chris


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## dchan (Jun 29, 2004)

Stiffer is more forgiving to a host of other problems (to a point)


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## Astroguy (Oct 11, 2013)

There is a lack of....Correct Arrow Spine stated in this thread. A workable spine is ideal and can be tuned with minor weight adjustments to either limbs or arrows.

Weak arrows are and always will be inconsistent. And drive new shooters nuts when a shop sells them unmatched gear. 

A stiff spine will be more forgiving of a sloppy release. And shoot outside of the sight window as distance increases. Left for RH and right for LH the further out. 

Generally an archer with 2 years might not shoot the same arrows as someone with 15 years in, givin everything equal. So arrow tuning with some limb weight and point weight to break the spine is a general practice.

Your bare shaft test will let you know how much your spine is out. Test with a few arrows .050 weaker of the same make and type.


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## zal (May 1, 2007)

Always stiffer. Major problem for weaker arrow is clearance issues, which tend to be pretty drastic.

I'm currently shooting about 3-4 sizes too stiff arrows, as there's no long enough arrows for my (current) low poundage, so shooting 450 rather than about 600ish that would tune. No problems. Scoring about 5% less than with well tuned arrows. Bare shaft is about 40 inches to the left from 30m.


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## grantmac (May 31, 2007)

What I'm talking about is taking the right arrow and tuning it so that it's slightly stiff. Not enough to drift right over distance or have the bareshaft way outside the group.
Shafts setup like that don't necessarily produce the tightest groups for me, but they make do score better over the course of a day.


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## Archery30 (Jan 15, 2016)

I have heard quite a few shooters now are doing the opposite and using slightly weak shafts. They are using max 100 gr. points... Instead of cutting them down to make them stiffer and having a shorter arrow, they are getting a spine stiffer and leaving it longer... and then adjusting bow poundage to make arrow act on the weaker side. The result is a slightly stiffer plunger. They claim with slightly more flex out of the bow, it gives better clearance and the arrow initially flexes out and away from the bow. Also, since it has less point weight, it does drift more in wind, but they must aim off a bit more.. 

What do you think about this approach?


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## theminoritydude (Feb 11, 2013)

Archery30 said:


> I have heard quite a few shooters now are doing the opposite and using slightly weak shafts. They are using max 100 gr. points... Instead of cutting them down to make them stiffer and having a shorter arrow, they are getting a spine stiffer and leaving it longer... and then adjusting bow poundage to make arrow act on the weaker side. The result is a slightly stiffer plunger. They claim with slightly more flex out of the bow, it gives better clearance and the arrow initially flexes out and away from the bow. Also, since it has less point weight, it does drift more in wind, but they must aim off a bit more..
> 
> What do you think about this approach?


A tuned arrow is neither stiffer nor softer. It is just, "tuned".
If it is softer, then it is not tuned.


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## zal (May 1, 2007)

99% of cases it's easier to just shoot a tuned arrow. That 1% though seem to include a lot of very top level archers, who have enough rigorous testing behind them to know how much and in which direction it must be offtuned for them to provide best result. Weaker/stiffer if just one axis, dynamic tiller and nock travel is altogether another matter.

As said, theres no really different tunes. It is either tuned or not tuned. Sometimes being in the latter category is what you are looking for.


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## vlesiv (Oct 20, 2013)

Tuned vs not tuned - agree. The general direction of what I've heard is: it's better to get slightly stiffer arrows, keeping them long and adding heavier points to tune them vs working with weaker arrows and lightening points or making arrows shorter to tune


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## Arcus (Jul 7, 2005)

vlesiv said:


> Tuned vs not tuned - agree. The general direction of what I've heard is: it's better to get slightly stiffer arrows, keeping them long and adding heavier points to tune them vs working with weaker arrows and lightening points or making arrows shorter to tune


In both of your scenarios, you have tuned arrows. If you want to shoot untuned arrows, then the advice given here is to shoot a stiff arrow versus a weak one.


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## vlesiv (Oct 20, 2013)

Arcus said:


> In both of your scenarios, you have tuned arrows. If you want to shoot untuned arrows, then the advice given here is to shoot a stiff arrow versus a weak one.


Uh, yes, that's what I was trying to find out. 

Example: 650 and 600 spines for #40-41 otf. 650 spine can tune with 90 grain points and heavier nocks - light weight. 600 spine can tune with 120 grn points and being slightly longer. 

What's better for competitive shooting?


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## Arcus (Jul 7, 2005)

But, if you have a tuned arrow, what difference does it make whether you started out stiff or weak?


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## vlesiv (Oct 20, 2013)

Arcus said:


> But, if you have a tuned arrow, what difference does it make whether you started out stiff or weak?


Overall weight of an arrow and speed, let's say. When it's windy - what flies better? When your release is not perfect, what gives better forgiveness and recovers faster? Heavier arrow is slower, but with heavier point will be more stable with cross wind flying for 70-90 meters... 

Or does it even matter when, as you said, both option can be tuned and shoot - do people see any differences in scores shooting with one or another options?

Just wanted to know that, to sleep better 


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## Arcus (Jul 7, 2005)

Gotcha. What style do you shoot? Oly?


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## vlesiv (Oct 20, 2013)

Yes, Oly recurve, just moving up in weight to #40, thinking about diff options on arrows...


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## chrstphr (Nov 23, 2005)

heavier point. 


Chris


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## Seattlepop (Dec 8, 2003)

What is the best way to have stiff arrows? Say they are bare shaft tuned to 70m with a Beiter set with medium spring at 7.0 on the barrel scale which is approx 450 grams. Just turning the barrel scale to 6.0, around 500 or so grams, would make the arrow fly more "stiff". Adjust the sight. Is that all there is to it?


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## vlesiv (Oct 20, 2013)

Well, that's a "fine" tuning already ) 

But I learned one rule in this thread - if you have doubts re the spine of your new arrows (assuming several options can tune based on others feedback) - get a stiffer set and heavier points, this will be safer and eventually cheaper at the end



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## Astroguy (Oct 11, 2013)

grantmac said:


> What I'm talking about is taking the right arrow and tuning it so that it's slightly stiff. Not enough to drift right over distance or have the bareshaft way outside the group.
> Shafts setup like that don't necessarily produce the tightest groups for me, but they make do score better over the course of a day.


That's what I'm calling a correct workable spine. And I also tune arrows for a slight stiff read. I want my bare shafts in the group slightly nock high outside. When I'm happy with my Walkback tune. My paper test shows a faint 1/4 shaft tear high and 1/4 shaft out. I always keep 2 bare shafts in the quiver to let me know if I'm performing or if something has moved. I think we are all going to say about the same thing in a different way. 

Younger archers need to know, they need to be able to hold and shoot to tune a setup right. Personal skills are as much a factor as knowledge. So bare shaft at 20 then Walkback tune. To get your personal results.


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## zal (May 1, 2007)

I'd stick with reasonable FOC (15-18% has been good for me), using at least 110gr point. That way you'll end up with an arrow that has at least a chance to work in the wind.

I usually shoot 370, 400 or 430 ACE's, the last to cut a bit from the back. I pretty much always pick 430 and 120gr point which gives me right trajectory and a better FOC than the others. All can be tuned to same length, using same point, within 1-2# difference, by cutting different amounts from the back.

I tune my bareshafts to about 6.5, 10:30 o'clock from 70m. Or used to, when I was in good enough form to get consistent readings. These days I won't bother.


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## Dillinger1 (Aug 14, 2017)

chrstphr said:


> stiffer arrows can be tuned to group at one distance. weak arrows will generally not group well regardless of the tuning. Too touchy to finger releases. and a number of other reasons. Too much flex in the shaft is dangerous, too light an arrow is not good for the bow or limbs etc.
> 
> 
> Chris


This, weak is less forgiving and more erratic.


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## heuerlover (Jun 17, 2017)

vlesiv said:


> Example - I tuned Carbon Express arrows in 650 spine for #40 otf (I didn't, it's just an example) and then I decide to move to #4 heavier limbs, should i get 550 arrows spine?
> 
> Thanks


Yes, i'd go with the 550. This way you are fine in case you'd go up 4lbs. But you can get them work also when to going up 4lbs.

The following example surprised me:
We have a beginner in our club and his bow has 28lbs and his draw lenght is about 28"... 
He stands next to me and the arrows were flying quite good when watching him executing the shot. 
He shot easton powerflight 400.... which i'd use on a 60lbs compound.


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