# Question for NFAA members



## voxito

Judging by what you said, your area is a quite a bit different than mine. Of our top 5 in the state, 3 are seniors. That is only due to waining numbers in the open class.


----------



## The Swami

50 isn't old or senior anymore. I will be 50 in less than 6 years. There is no way I would belong in a Senior class. 50 is the new 30 and I feel 25 at 44 years old now.

It looks like you made your choice. You compete more in the ASA and knew the rules going in.

If anything, I think the senior open class for the ASA should be moved to 55. Shooting the ASA is less physically demanding. Most of the ASA courses are pretty flat and they don't shoot a lot of arrows.

50 just isn't old anymore. I don't know anyone that is old at 50. If they moved it to 50 in the NFAA guys like me would have a big advantage on a field course if it has hills etc. How would the seniors complain then if they had a bunch of guys that looked 30 something competing in their class? 

Why do you think shooting open pro at 50 is unfair? There are a few pros that are 50 competing in Open Pro. No one is complaining about that. Is it because you don't think you can win some money? I am here to tell you, the senior pro division isn't going to be any easier. Just less amounts of shooters.

I Think the way the NFAA has it now is ok.

Good luck in the ASA this year!! Tear it up!


----------



## Bob_Looney

I don't think shooting in the Senior pro will help much.
Wilde, Snoddgrass, Boylan, Crowe, Ruddock, ....

Then there is that Dean fellow in master senior.

There's always somebody better, prettier, and richer.


----------



## rock monkey

is it fair for a 40something recovering stroke victim to shoot against 20something thorobreds?

pick your class, shoot your game and deal with the results instead of trying to get life to change for you.

lets get em to make a 'medically deficient class' so that anyone thats been hospitalized with a potentially life altering experience can feel better about themselves.


not me, no way......i'll put my best up against anyone regardless of age or experience. sometimes i win, most times i dont. that that doesnt kill me only makes me stronger.


----------



## field14

Dan'll,
This of course has been an agenda item at the National meeting more than once, and each time, it gets voted down...or doesn't make it to the floor for a vote...

Until the 'old guard" changes, and maybe not even then, we all will have to be age 55 or over to be considered a "senior" in the NFAA.

I have heard talk of some support for doing away with senior and Master Senior divisions....including doing away with the PRO Senior Unlimited Division...and THOSE MOVES, IMHO, would be disastrous for the NFAA....

Hopefully the "cutting axe" won't fall in those areas...but....with the way other "votes" and rescinded votes have gone lately...who knows?

It would be nice to have consistency...but since NFAA was THERE FIRST...then maybe it is the IBO and ASA that should "coordinate" the senior division age limits....????

field14


----------



## Bobmuley

I'd be for it. I still have a bunch of years before I'd be eligible in either case. Just seems to me that we lose a bunch of those late-40 and early-50 year olds until they hit senior status when they come back.


----------



## JAVI

Bobmuley said:


> I'd be for it. I still have a bunch of years before I'd be eligible in either case. Just seems to me that we lose a bunch of those late-40 and early-50 year olds until they hit senior status when they come back.


Exactly...:wink:


----------



## Daniel Boone

*Go count the numbers*



The Swami said:


> 50 isn't old or senior anymore. I will be 50 in less than 6 years. There is no way I would belong in a Senior class. 50 is the new 30 and I feel 25 at 44 years old now.
> 
> It looks like you made your choice. You compete more in the ASA and knew the rules going in.
> 
> If anything, I think the senior open class for the ASA should be moved to 55. Shooting the ASA is less physically demanding. Most of the ASA courses are pretty flat and they don't shoot a lot of arrows.
> 
> 50 just isn't old anymore. I don't know anyone that is old at 50. If they moved it to 50 in the NFAA guys like me would have a big advantage on a field course if it has hills etc. How would the seniors complain then if they had a bunch of guys that looked 30 something competing in their class?
> 
> Why do you think shooting open pro at 50 is unfair? There are a few pros that are 50 competing in Open Pro. No one is complaining about that. Is it because you don't think you can win some money? I am here to tell you, the senior pro division isn't going to be any easier. Just less amounts of shooters.
> 
> I Think the way the NFAA has it now is ok.
> 
> Good luck in the ASA this year!! Tear it up!



There not many that can compete with the young guns in NFAA.  They attendance would gain popularity. 50 is old whether you think so or not. I have only seen one over 50 win lately. Dave Barnsdale. Glad you feel your going to compete with guys in there prime at age 50. I do believe your just kidding yourself. I have talk with most the senior guys and they would welcome the 50 year old age limit. It would gain attendance and extra money to the class. Steve Boylan said he more than willing to see it happen.
I made my choice and quess its no NFAA:wink: I would say guys 50 to 60 are about in the same condition. Lots of difference between 30 and 50:wink:
If senior pros want the class to grow its the only way.
DB


----------



## Daniel Boone

*Ill ask*



field14 said:


> Dan'll,
> This of course has been an agenda item at the National meeting more than once, and each time, it gets voted down...or doesn't make it to the floor for a vote...
> 
> Until the 'old guard" changes, and maybe not even then, we all will have to be age 55 or over to be considered a "senior" in the NFAA.
> 
> I have heard talk of some support for doing away with senior and Master Senior divisions....including doing away with the PRO Senior Unlimited Division...and THOSE MOVES, IMHO, would be disastrous for the NFAA....
> 
> Hopefully the "cutting axe" won't fall in those areas...but....with the way other "votes" and rescinded votes have gone lately...who knows?
> 
> It would be nice to have consistency...but since NFAA was THERE FIRST...then maybe it is the IBO and ASA that should "coordinate" the senior division age limits....????
> 
> field14


Then you think there a big difference in 50 to 55. I think you can watch the shootdowns and how many 50 yaers old do you see in the pro shootdowns?
What consistancy change it to 50 and watch the class grow. Right now its not growing and doubt it will. Lot more guys till shooting between 50 and 60 than 55 to 65. The fact I shoot pro in ASA shouldnt have a darn thing to do with NFAA if there rules are not the same. Just infair, but hey Ill play by the rules and keep my money in the bank.
DB


----------



## Daniel Boone

*So you shoot Open Pro*



rock monkey said:


> is it fair for a 40something recovering stroke victim to shoot against 20something thorobreds?
> 
> pick your class, shoot your game and deal with the results instead of trying to get life to change for you.
> 
> lets get em to make a 'medically deficient class' so that anyone thats been hospitalized with a potentially life altering experience can feel better about themselves.
> 
> 
> not me, no way......i'll put my best up against anyone regardless of age or experience. sometimes i win, most times i dont. that that doesnt kill me only makes me stronger.



Your shooting against the best of the best? Your paying the higher entry fees to shoot against the pro class.

DB


----------



## rock monkey

i see quite a few scores that rival the pros in the first flight of amfs. only 18 pros shot a perfect round on saturday. my score would have put me in 25th if i did shoot pro.

just to please you, i shot a 300 and 49x saturday, and a 300 and 51x sunday. finished 11th in the 6th flight.

my league bests this year are a 300 with 59x's and a 450 33x vegas round. it doesnt matter tho.....i didnt do it in a tournament. numerous 58x and 57x rounds and some 445+ vegas rounds, but nothing i would settle with.

one of my league buddies that i shoot with twice a week shot and won the third flight. his only edge on me is his tournament temprament.....that is it. once i get over my tournament jitters and shoot my game.....its game on.

when i do shoot consistant 59x games and 449 40x+ vegas games under tournament conditions, then yeah i will turn pro. until then, i will put myself in as many shoots as i can and shoot as best i can with dogged determination to condition my mind so i can shoot with the best of the best and make both of us work for it.

just curious as to why you discredit and disrespect the achievements of those that dont shoot pro class?


----------



## Daniel Boone

*Your comment*



rock monkey said:


> i see quite a few scores that rival the pros in the first flight of amfs. only 18 pros shot a perfect round on saturday. my score would have put me in 25th if i did shoot pro.
> 
> just to please you, i shot a 300 and 49x saturday, and a 300 and 51x sunday. finished 11th in the 6th flight.
> 
> my league bests this year are a 300 with 59x's and a 450 33x vegas round. it doesnt matter tho.....i didnt do it in a tournament. numerous 58x and 57x rounds and some 445+ vegas rounds, but nothing i would settle with.
> 
> one of my league buddies that i shoot with twice a week shot and won the third flight. his only edge on me is his tournament temprament.....that is it. once i get over my tournament jitters and shoot my game.....its game on.
> 
> when i do shoot consistant 59x games and 449 40x+ vegas games under tournament conditions, then yeah i will turn pro. until then, i will put myself in as many shoots as i can and shoot as best i can with dogged determination to condition my mind so i can shoot with the best of the best and make both of us work for it.



You seemed to be telling me to man up with the best pros in the buisness. Untell you can shoot 60X pretty simple the pro open class should not be a option. Thats my opionion. Not many at age 45 can shoot back to back 60X's. Im honest with myself and know Im not capable of even coming close to competing with open pros. Now my thoughts are there is a big difference in age between 50 and 30. But there not alot of difference between 50 and 55. It would open the small class of senior pros to make a larger class and make other feel they can compete. If Im competing in a pro class its because I think I can win money. Other wise I might as well stay in amatuers. For anyone that is in the early 40 to say they know how they will feel at 50 is strange to me. At age 43 I was benching close to 600lbs but realized my body was at the age to quit. Now can I do that now at age 50, maybe but I sure think it wouldnt be good for the body. Each shoots for his own reasons. 
DB


----------



## rock monkey

age is an excuse, not a reason.


----------



## Daniel Boone

*Wait untell your fifty and say that.*



rock monkey said:


> age is an excuse, not a reason.


In all sports age is a factor for many atheletes. We have senior classes for reasons. If age doesnt matter than we shouldnt have senior classes. Sorry but your not making any logic saying this. I suggest you talk to those age 50 and let them tell you age does matter.
DB


----------



## Daniel Boone

*Actually it would be nice to hear from senior shooters*

I think and realize you guys know your limits. Would it be a good move for NFAA? I have ask many seniors at the ASA and everyone there says they need to move it to 50 to gain popularity. It works great for ASA.
DB

25 shooters at indoor nationals is not very many. I would diffiantly bet the numbers would grow if age was lowered.
DB


----------



## jonabxring

*I don't really qualify*

I'm not a pro...just started shooting field shoots last year, I'll turn 50 this year. I'm no slouch with a bow, but still got a lot of learning to do and improvements to make.
I'm in reasonable condition and the best observation I can make is that I could not in any way compete with who I was 10 years ago much less 20 years ago...I've been shooting 4 years and am just now starting to step out a little. Shot a lot of indoor this year and went to "Vegas". 
Bottom line, I cannot beat a younger me...course, I don't have too. It is what it is and I just hope to continue to grow and enjoy the journey.


----------



## Daniel Boone

*Thought for NFAA*

Let the guys that are senior pros vote. Let the decide if they want the class to have more entrys.

DB


----------



## The Swami

Daniel Boone said:


> Let the guys that are senior pros vote. Let the decide if they want the class to have more entrys.
> 
> DB


Sounds fair to me.

But trust me, I am not your normal 44 year old, nor will I be normal at 50.


----------



## field14

Daniel Boone said:


> Let the guys that are senior pros vote. Let the decide if they want the class to have more entrys.
> 
> DB


Dan, that is almost like having the fox guarding the hen house!:wink: Of course they will vote to expand their division!

There are a couple of SENIOR PROS that have voiced an opinion of doing away with that and the Master Senior division....believe it or not...fortunately, however, it is only a FEW of them!

I'm all for lowering it to age 50...even tho I'm age 61 soon...just makes better sense to me and "coordinating" with the rest of the world....

field14


----------



## Daniel Boone

*Really*



field14 said:


> Dan, that is almost like having the fox guarding the hen house!:wink: Of course they will vote to expand their division!
> 
> There are a couple of SENIOR PROS that have voiced an opinion of doing away with that and the Master Senior division....believe it or not...fortunately, however, it is only a FEW of them!
> 
> I'm all for lowering it to age 50...even tho I'm age 61 soon...just makes better sense to me and "coordinating" with the rest of the world....
> 
> field14



I would think if your not going to listen or let the guys in the class help make those disscissions the class will never grow and might even get smaller. Just a thought. Works for me either way. Im not the best spot shooter around. Just saves me from being a donater to the pros.:tongue:
DB
DB


----------



## field14

Daniel Boone said:


> I would think if your not going to listen or let the guys in the class help make those disscissions the class will never grow and might even get smaller. Just a thought. Works for me either way. Im not the best spot shooter around. Just saves me from being a donater to the pros.:tongue:
> DB
> DB


I sure "hear you" on that one, and couldn't agree more....egads....shoot 120X's, and could be in 11th place...Shoot 119X...and MAYBE get your registration fee back....

I wouldn't be a "contributor" to the pro fund for long...not at age 61....or even 51, haha.

field14:wink::tongue:


----------



## WV Has Been

Daniel Boone said:


> I would say guys 50 to 60 are about in the same condition. Lots of difference between 30 and 50:wink:
> If senior pros want the class to grow its the only way.
> DB


If its such a big gap between 30 and 50 lets meet in the middle and make it 40. I just turned 41 it would be a big advantage to me.:wink::wink::wink:

Dan,

Call the executive secretary of the NFAA and tell her that you are an NFAA member and you want to shoot the National Tournaments as a non-competitor. I would be willing to bet that she would not turn you or your money away. 

Is it about competing or the money that you think you would be donating in the Pro Male Freestyle class?


----------



## JAVI

All you young folks come back and review this thread when y'all get to 50... :wink: That'll be a blast... :tongue:


----------



## Big Country

JAVI said:


> All you young folks come back and review this thread when y'all get to 50... :wink: That'll be a blast... :tongue:


Listen Mike, you need to get this straight now, cause this young feller will be 50 in less than 3 years.


----------



## The Swami

JAVI said:


> All you young folks come back and review this thread when y'all get to 50... :wink: That'll be a blast... :tongue:


Sure thing.  It will be a blast. It won't be long.


----------



## The Swami

> I have talk with most the senior guys and they would welcome the 50 year old age limit. It would gain attendance and extra money to the class.


Them cagey old geezers.  :tongue: Of course they will say that to you, they are looking to take donors away from the young guns. 

It is all just a matter of which class you wish to donate to.


----------



## Daniel Boone

*I wont play if I dont think I have shot to place decent*



WV Has Been said:


> If its such a big gap between 30 and 50 lets meet in the middle and make it 40. I just turned 41 it would be a big advantage to me.:wink::wink::wink:
> 
> Dan,
> 
> Call the executive secretary of the NFAA and tell her that you are an NFAA member and you want to shoot the National Tournaments as a non-competitor. I would be willing to bet that she would not turn you or your money away.
> 
> Is it about competing or the money that you think you would be donating in the Pro Male Freestyle class?



Its about competing, Im there to place or win especially if Im putting a big entry fee. I can compete and shoot scores at the house or leagues.:wink:
Not driving all the way to Lousiville to shoot for fun or practice. Ill hang with indoors and support NFAA. Only five years to practice and get better.:wink:
When Im 55 Ill still be supporting the 50 year olds in this class.:wink:
DB


----------



## ROB B

*Dan is right!*

To all of you that don't think there is a change at 50....well I can't put it here!
I found that at 50 my eyes started to refuse to focus fast enough and the doc said was normal. It started taking longer to warm up and I didn't like that. I said there was no way I was getting OLD! But the body started letting me down, couldn't hold as steady, Couldn't see the targets as well, etc.
I started noticing that I was finishing lower and lower.
I said wait till I turn 55. Well I did last spring(turn 55) and in may had a heart attack. I am coming back but it is slow. Eyes are really gone now and poundage is down,along with what little speed I once had.
But at least I can now shoot with guys that understand (and most have same prob) and hope I will be competitive again

Rob

Ps I laugh at the young guys as they too start to age, firat they try to buy their way back to good scores and after they go broke realise it is a natural thing:embara:


----------



## Daniel Boone

*I have to admit*



ROB B said:


> To all of you that don't think there is a change at 50....well I can't put it here!
> I found that at 50 my eyes started to refuse to focus fast enough and the doc said was normal. It started taking longer to warm up and I didn't like that. I said there was no way I was getting OLD! But the body started letting me down, couldn't hold as steady, Couldn't see the targets as well, etc.
> I started noticing that I was finishing lower and lower.
> I said wait till I turn 55. Well I did last spring(turn 55) and in may had a heart attack. I am coming back but it is slow. Eyes are really gone now and poundage is down,along with what little speed I once had.
> But at least I can now shoot with guys that understand (and most have same prob) and hope I will be competitive again
> 
> Rob
> 
> Ps I laugh at the young guys as they too start to age, firat they try to buy their way back to good scores and after they go broke realise it is a natural thing:embara:



I use to be just like them. I thought heck 50 not old. Now I wear glasses. Have high blood pressure and the body sure aches more than ever. Never talk about how it feels to be older untell you get there. Quess I should have taken better care of this older model body.:tongue:
DB


----------



## JAVI

Those of us who shoot senior pro in the ASA at 50, are required to shoot pro in the NFAA until we reach 55; the bulk of the pros who are not fully sponsored with entry fees and travel expenses are not going to waste the money to shoot the NFAA/WAF National tournaments when know they are not competitive with the younger shooters. So the same NFAA that cries about not having enough shooters is in fact driving several away. And from what I've heard it may well be a similar situation in the amateur ranks.


----------



## FS560

There will never be separate age groups for Senior Pro and regular Senior.

So, you guys screaming for Senior Pro at 50 because of all the shooters to be gained, what about the loss of seniors between 60 and 64 that will then have to compete with the 50 year old kids?

Then they will be screaming for Master Senior to start at 60 instead of 65.

Then we have to create a Master Master Senior.


----------



## JAVI

FS560 said:


> There will never be separate age groups for Senior Pro and regular Senior.
> 
> So, you guys screaming for Senior Pro at 50 because of all the shooters to be gained, what about the loss of seniors between 60 and 64 that will then have to compete with the 50 year old kids?
> 
> Then they will be screaming for Master Senior to start at 60 instead of 65.
> 
> Then we have to create a Master Master Senior.


Of course not... while you old guys are in power :wink: Y'all would rather just see us not shoot at all until we turn 55..

But maybe Easton will see it differently...:tongue:


----------



## hunter111

*Two years ago Rob at Lancaster put in a Senior Class of age 50... From the over 50 crowd that I knew, there was much more talk and interest in competing at Lancaster... Before that, most would say the same as Boone, that they couldn't compete with the young guns. So, Yes, a lower Senior Class age will increase some interest.

I guess my problem with all of this class stuff is everybody wants their own class/group so they have a chance of WINNING…

What ever happened to competing with yourself and just being satisfied with shooting the best you can… I have lost tournaments with a 600 55x and felt great about my shooting and on the other hand I have won tournaments with a 596 and 38x’s where I know I didn’t shoot well… 

To me, it is all about improving my shooting each and every time I toe the line, not winning… but then again, it sure would be nice to win a new car… Hey, maybe that’s the answer, instead of getting more classes, we need the NFAA to just give away more cars…. *


----------



## JAVI

hunter111 said:


> *
> I guess my problem with all of this class stuff is everybody wants their own class/group so they have a chance of WINNING…
> 
> What ever happened to competing with yourself and just being satisfied with shooting the best you can… I have lost tournaments with a 600 55x and felt great about my shooting and on the other hand I have won tournaments with a 596 and 38x’s where I know I didn’t shoot well…
> 
> To me, it is all about improving my shooting each and every time I toe the line, not winning… but then again, it sure would be nice to win a new car… Hey, maybe that’s the answer, instead of getting more classes, we need the NFAA to just give away more cars…. *


Usually when you start paying pro dues and entry fees you do so because you expect to be competitive, otherwise you stay in the Am's...:wink:


----------



## WV Has Been

JAVI said:


> Usually when you start paying pro dues and entry fees you do so because you expect to be competitive, otherwise you stay in the Am's...:wink:


I disagree!

People turn pro for one of two reasons.

1) They expect a return.

2) To pump there ego!


----------



## JAVI

WV Has Been said:


> I disagree!
> 
> People turn pro for one of two reasons.
> 
> 1) They expect a return.
> 
> 2) To pump there ego!


Either one would also imply a need to be competitive...:wink: Otherwise one will not be forthcoming and the other will be crushed...


----------



## The Swami

I turned pro to learn more. 

Been shooting 4 years and 2 of that pro. The bought lesson is indeed a good one.


----------



## distributor

*senior division*

Well you might condersider a senior pro division at the age of 50 year olds, but not with the 55 year old seniors, Dan if you would like to have a younger senior division start one at the age of 45 years old threw 54 years old and leave the senior division of the 55 years old alone, Then Dan when you reach the age of 55 you would be a true senior and you could switch to the 55 year class. The problem with a 50 year old in the senior division the 55 year old plus cannot compete with the younger 50 year olds. But Dan I can see your point that a 50 year old cannot compete with the young guns on a day to day basic. So Dan the solution would be a additional senior division
for the 45 year olds threw 54 years old the problem would be solved.


----------



## JAVI

I'll be 59 this year and I still feel competitve with the 50-55 bracket... :wink:


----------



## Daniel Boone

*Calling BS on that one*



WV Has Been said:


> I disagree!
> 
> People turn pro for one of two reasons.
> 
> 1) They expect a return.
> 
> 2) To pump there ego!


I dreamed of shooting pro when I first starting shooting archery. I shoot pro because I want to find out if I have what it takes to compete with archers that I know are ther best at shooting archery. Shooting for a purse money prize brings out the cream of the crop.
DB


----------



## Daniel Boone

*Not sure who your asking*



distributor said:


> Well you might condersider a senior pro division at the age of 50 year olds, but not with the 55 year old seniors, Dan if you would like to have a younger senior division start one at the age of 45 years old threw 54 years old and leave the senior division of the 55 years old alone, Then Dan when you reach the age of 55 you would be a true senior and you could switch to the 55 year class. The problem with a 50 year old in the senior division the 55 year old plus cannot compete with the younger 50 year olds. But Dan I can see your point that a 50 year old cannot compete with the young guns on a day to day basic. So Dan the solution would be a additional senior division
> for the 45 year olds threw 54 years old the problem would be solved.


But I started asking several years ago. Most that shoot senior pro have no promblem thinking they can compete with 50yr olds. Theres always going to be great shooter that can shoot good untell there 65. Im saying its only going to make the class bigger and more money. Rob at Lancasters realized this and his numbers show in the seniors. Steve Boylan can hold his own with anyone 50 and older. and will for quite awhile.
DB
DB


----------



## Daniel Boone

*Just want to say this*

Im not sure I can compete on the ASA level. But Im giving it my best shot.

Im darn sure not a good enough indoor shooter to beat anyone. I just hate the fact I dont get to shoot NFAA for a few years. Really wont make a world of difference to me. Im thinking it will just help the NFAA. Bring in numbers and make the senior class larger.
DB


----------



## distributor

JAVI said:


> I'll be 59 this year and I still feel competitve with the 50-55 bracket... :wink:


Javi: Where you may be competive with the 50 year olds there will be about 70 to 80 percent that will not be able to be competive with the 50 year olds so what you are saying force them out for the 50 year olds?


----------



## Mike2787

Don't tell anyone but I'm turning 50 in August. Even got my AARP card in the mail yesterday. I think I can still compete with the big guns. Never been much of an indoor shooter but I plan to give them a run outside this year. My dilemma will be when I register for Lancaster next year. My ego will want to shoot in the junior class but my pocketbook will be telling me to register in the senior division. I'm all for moving the age to 50 for the NFAA. The ASA, NAA and Senior Olympics all start at 50.


----------



## JAVI

distributor said:


> Javi: Where you may be competive with the 50 year olds there will be about 70 to 80 percent that will not be able to be competive with the 50 year olds so what you are saying force them out for the 50 year olds?


We're talking mainly about the pro division... what the AM's do about age is not an issue to us. I can see where a 55+ who shoots one night a week would not be able to compete, but I doubt that same shooter would be competitive with a dedicated 65 year old either...


----------



## Daniel Boone

*You will hold your own*



Mike2787 said:


> Don't tell anyone but I'm turning 50 in August. Even got my AARP card in the mail yesterday. I think I can still compete with the big guns. Never been much of an indoor shooter but I plan to give them a run outside this year. My dilemma will be when I register for Lancaster next year. My ego will want to shoot in the junior class but my pocketbook will be telling me to register in the senior division. I'm all for moving the age to 50 for the NFAA. The ASA, NAA and Senior Olympics all start at 50.


If you shoot indoors like you do field. You should be just fine. Besides Dean would say its just 20yrds how hard can it be.:tongue: Didnt realize you were that old but have to figure some of those pictures with you and Dean. Dean still had plenty of hair also.:tongue:
DB


----------



## JAVI

Come on up Mike... The weather is fine and my arm should be healed in time for Vegas next year... This old 59 year old will share a bale with ya' anytime...


----------



## Jbird

*What's Behind this is $$$$*

Everyone knows that Mathews supports the Senior Pros with good contingency money. Right now that means you have a shot at the loot from 55 to 64. There is no way that the 50 year old Senior division will get any backing without lowering Master Senior to 60. Master Seniors don't get squat for contingency. So.........be careful what you wish for. Do you want your shot at the real money to end at age 60 or do you think the bow companies are just automatically going sink a bunch of money into Master Seniors? While considering the Ying and the Yang of this don't get your ying/yang caught in the rules.
Jbird


----------



## proXarchery

ASA and IBO have seniors at 50 . I think NFAA should follow suit. Just my 2 cents


----------



## SuperX

Mike2787 said:


> Don't tell anyone but I'm turning 50 in August. Even got my AARP card in the mail yesterday. I think I can still compete with the big guns. Never been much of an indoor shooter but I plan to give them a run outside this year. My dilemma will be when I register for Lancaster next year. My ego will want to shoot in the junior class but my pocketbook will be telling me to register in the senior division. I'm all for moving the age to 50 for the NFAA. The ASA, NAA and Senior Olympics all start at 50.



AARP - I got mine too - it was an eye opening day when it showed up. :embara:

I would shoot Senior if my competitors would but we have kind of a tradition in the PFFS divison of shooting in the Adult division and I kind of like it. Besides I can't beat those ladies either so what's the difference? :darkbeer:


----------



## FS560

I think the people moaning that Senior Pro should start at 50 will be moaning in 10 years that NFAA should create a Master Senior Pro division for 60 year olds.



Maybe we should separate age divisions of 1 year each from 50 to 70 so that everyone can have their own little small competition freebe pond.


----------



## field14

FS560 said:


> I think the people moaning that Senior Pro should start at 50 will be moaning in 10 years that NFAA should create a Master Senior Pro division for 60 year olds.
> 
> 
> 
> Maybe we should separate age divisions of 1 year each from 50 to 70 so that everyone can have their own little small competition freebe pond.


They will, Jim....

The new division could be called "Senior CUB"...since most men over 60 are accused on a daily basis by their wives of being in their SECOND CHILDHOOD!:wink::tongue:

Senior Cubs could even shoot from the cub stakes and the ranges could be set no more than 200 yards from a potty. Inconsistency and incontinence go hand in hand, hahaha.

field14:tongue::wink:


----------



## FS560

Well, the two most important things for us old geezers to remember are:

1. Never pass up a bathroom.

2. Never trust a fart.


----------



## JAVI

FS560 said:


> Well, the two most important things for us old geezers to remember are:
> 
> 1. Never pass up a bathroom.
> 
> 2. Never trust a fart.


And the slip of paper with your address and the phone numbers of people who will come give you a ride home when you forget where you live.:wink:

And I don't need no Master Senior class...:nyah::moon:


----------



## field14

And the golden rule of retirement: "ALWAYS put off 'til tomorrow that which you should be doing today."

field14:darkbeer::darkbeer:


----------



## distributor

*Old senior pros*

Why would a 50 year old in his prime even want to shoot in a division with the old 55 to 64 year olds anyway, if you won't a junior senior division for the 50 year olds set one up make a cruser division that cannot compete with the younger pros.

Yes Java I know that we are talking about the senior pro division, since you are 59 years old where have you been for the last 4 years at the NFAA outdoor nationals I am 65 years old and have been shooting them where have you been?


----------



## JAVI

distributor said:


> Why would a 50 year old in his prime even want to shoot in a division with the old 55 to 64 year olds anyway, if you won't a junior senior division for the 50 year olds set one up make a cruser division that cannot compete with the younger pros.
> 
> Yes Java I know that we are talking about the senior pro division, since you are 59 years old where have you been for the last 4 years at the NFAA outdoor nationals I am 65 years old and have been shooting them where have you been?


I don't shoot the Outdoor nationals for several reasons... not the least of which is a bad leg that won't take the pounding for 5 days. And I can't (or won't) afford the time off from work to shoot 5 days...


----------



## distributor

JAVI said:


> I don't shoot the Outdoor nationals for several reasons... not the least of which is a bad leg that won't take the pounding for 5 days. And I can't (or won't) afford the time off from work to shoot 5 days...


Javi: That is the reason for why that most of the older shooters do not need to be in a 50 year old division this 55 year old division is made up mostly of older people that have some kind of problems that puts a restriction on their
shooting, I know that you can name several shooters that still shoot very well such as Ellis Gibbson, Dean Pregeden, Joe Benfiene,Frank Graandy,
Dennis nealey, James Thurman, Richard Wheatley,Frank Person, and so on. But that is just a hand full if shooters that can. There is also a lot of shooters that can not. The Senior games at the National level last year is prove of this, The 50 year old shooters shot much better as a whole than the age braket down under them.


----------



## Daniel Boone

*Where are all these 55 to 65 year old shooters*



distributor said:


> Why would a 50 year old in his prime even want to shoot in a division with the old 55 to 64 year olds anyway, if you won't a junior senior division for the 50 year olds set one up make a cruser division that cannot compete with the younger pros.
> 
> Yes Java I know that we are talking about the senior pro division, since you are 59 years old where have you been for the last 4 years at the NFAA outdoor nationals I am 65 years old and have been shooting them where have you been?



25 shooters only at Indoor nationals. Thats sure a small amount for pro class.
DB


----------



## Billincamo

The Swami said:


> 50 isn't old or senior anymore. I will be 50 in less than 6 years. There is no way I would belong in a Senior class. 50 is the new 30 and I feel 25 at 44 years old now.
> 
> It looks like you made your choice. You compete more in the ASA and knew the rules going in.
> 
> If anything, I think the senior open class for the ASA should be moved to 55. Shooting the ASA is less physically demanding. Most of the ASA courses are pretty flat and they don't shoot a lot of arrows.
> 
> 50 just isn't old anymore. I don't know anyone that is old at 50. If they moved it to 50 in the NFAA guys like me would have a big advantage on a field course if it has hills etc. How would the seniors complain then if they had a bunch of guys that looked 30 something competing in their class?
> 
> Why do you think shooting open pro at 50 is unfair? There are a few pros that are 50 competing in Open Pro. No one is complaining about that. Is it because you don't think you can win some money? I am here to tell you, the senior pro division isn't going to be any easier. Just less amounts of shooters.
> 
> I Think the way the NFAA has it now is ok.
> 
> Good luck in the ASA this year!! Tear it up!


50 is just as old now as it was 100 years ago. I have been blessed with good health and great vision. I am 46 years old and still very competitive. I win more then my share of dot and 3d shoots in the pro class at the state level shooting against younger and older shooters. Unfortunately the average male in this country starts to have eye problems around 45 years old. Typically they cannot see the target or the pin as well as they use to. You are in the same boat as I am. That will change overnight one day for both of us, we will wake up one morning and will be moving the morning newspaper further away to focus. Its coming. Bottom line at 50 yrs of age you no longer are in the prime of your life (your lying to yourself if think you still are or you were in lousy shape when you younger). I still pack elk out on my back, carry people out of burning buildings, and hunt long and hard in the mountains of Colorado. I also know I don't do these things at the same speed or with the same stamina that I did them with when I was 23 yrs old. I was in excellent shape at age 23 and am in excellent shape for my age now. I think they would have more participation if the NFAA lowered the senior class to 50. There are more healthy people between 50 and 55 then there are healthy people between 55 and 60. Its sad but true as we get older are health and even death are issues we face more and more. I do wish you the same health, vision, stamina, and scores you have now and 10 years from now. Chances are someting will start to give by the time your 53 or 54. Bill


----------



## 2fingers

WV Has Been said:


> I disagree!
> 
> People turn pro for one of two reasons.
> 
> 1) They expect a return.
> 
> 2) To pump there ego!




3) TO GET A GREAT SHOOTNG TIME ON SUNDAY.(NOT 7AM)


----------



## 2fingers

Billincamo said:


> 50 is just as old now as it was 100 years ago. I have been blessed with good health and great vision. I am 46 years old and still very competitive. I win more then my share of dot and 3d shoots in the pro class at the state level shooting against younger and older shooters. Unfortunately the average male in this country starts to have eye problems around 45 years old. Typically they cannot see the target or the pin as well as they use to. You are in the same boat as I am. That will change overnight one day for both of us, we will wake up one morning and will be moving the morning newspaper further away to focus. Its coming. Bottom line at 50 yrs of age you no longer are in the prime of your life (your lying to yourself if think you still are or you were in lousy shape when you younger). I still pack elk out on my back, carry people out of burning buildings, and hunt long and hard in the mountains of Colorado. I also know I don't do these things at the same speed or with the same stamina that I did them with when I was 23 yrs old. I was in excellent shape at age 23 and am in excellent shape for my age now. I think they would have more participation if the NFAA lowered the senior class to 50. There are more healthy people between 50 and 55 then there are healthy people between 55 and 60. Its sad but true as we get older are health and even death are issues we face more and more. I do wish you the same health, vision, stamina, and scores you have now and 10 years from now. Chances are someting will start to give by the time your 53 or 54. Bill


The only problem with this is my dad just turned 61 and he does not shoot the scores he shot 5 years ago. Instead of making 2 different classes why not flight the pro class then all of the pro classes might pick up more shooters. if more people have a chance of winning some $$.


----------



## Daniel Boone

*This is the pro class*



2fingers said:


> The only problem with this is my dad just turned 61 and he does not shoot the scores he shot 5 years ago. Instead of making 2 different classes why not flight the pro class then all of the pro classes might pick up more shooters. if more people have a chance of winning some $$.



I wouldnt enter if they flighted the classes. Its the best shooters win. Shoot amatuer if you want flights. Pro is the best of the best scores.
DB


----------



## 2fingers

Daniel Boone said:


> I wouldnt enter if they flighted the classes. Its the best shooters win. Shoot amatuer if you want flights. Pro is the best of the best scores.
> DB


whats the different between fights and different classes?
So you are saying "pro" should all be in ONE class and not seperated buy age?


----------



## Daniel Boone

*Im saying sperate by age like other assc*



2fingers said:


> whats the different between fights and different classes?
> So you are saying "pro" should all be in ONE class and not seperated buy age?


My thoughts are most senior pro classes are 50 year old. Thats my point. Im being pushed into Open pro for shooting in ASA. Thats not right. Flights is not for pro classes. I would not want anything for 20th place in a pro class.
DB


----------



## 2fingers

I think your missing my point everone wants there own class set up for themselfs. Im disabled can i have a pro disabled class?(lol) i shouldnt have to shoot with some 25years old that is in perfect health. the only different between flights and classes is a way to set a competitive level for each group of people. i dont want flights in pro class.


----------



## Daniel Boone

*I made my point*



2fingers said:


> I think your missing my point everone wants there own class set up for themselfs. Im disabled can i have a pro disabled class?(lol) i shouldnt have to shoot with some 25years old that is in perfect health. the only different between flights and classes is a way to set a competitive level for each group of people. i dont want flights in pro class.


I gave the reasons I think the NFAA would benefit lower the age. Most senior pro classes lack envolvement. To me having less than 25 shooters at a national event is very small. Pro class can be larger and have more shooters. If you think a disabled class would draw enough shooters for a pro class go for it. But for them to make rules that dont even match other asssc ages is very unfair. Quess Il wont be attending any of the NFAA events. Hopefully they will realize change in this class would be for the best.
DB


----------



## brtesite

FS560 said:


> There will never be separate age groups for Senior Pro and regular Senior.
> 
> So, you guys screaming for Senior Pro at 50 because of all the shooters to be gained, what about the loss of seniors between 60 and 64 that will then have to compete with the 50 year old kids?
> 
> Then they will be screaming for Master Senior to start at 60 instead of 65.
> 
> Then we have to create a Master Master Senior.


 I want master senior to start at 74.
I'm 74 & I can't compete with those 65 year old youngsters.


----------



## abe archer

*50 isn't old!!!*

For some reason I started shooting better after I turned 50. I plan on going pro next year, I will be 54 this year, and shoot in the under 55 age group for several years. I however am a finger shooter. The shooting only gets better after 50!!!


----------



## rock monkey

will the pro geezer classes have a lower entry fee since most of you are on fixed incomes?:tongue:


----------



## JAVI

brtesite said:


> I want master senior to start at 74.
> I'm 74 & I can't compete with those 65 year old youngsters.


I thought you were going to start shootin' bare bow like the rest of the older directors and council folks, ain't that what you do when you get too old to compete in freestyle...


----------



## field14

JAVI said:


> I thought you were going to start shootin' bare bow like the rest of the older directors and council folks, ain't that what you do when you get too old to compete in freestyle...


and shoot from the CUB stakes, too.

field14:wink:


----------



## deadeye24

senior pro almost sounds like an oxymoron for someone shooting in the pro class you would think that means something but to complain about it i for one dont get the senior pro class if you cant compete well you just cant compete pro class should be just that pros class


----------



## field14

deadeye24 said:


> senior pro almost sounds like an oxymoron for someone shooting in the pro class you would think that means something but to complain about it i for one dont get the senior pro class if you cant compete well you just cant compete pro class should be just that pros class


Yep, just like Arnold Palmer and Jack Nicklaus can compete on an even level with TIGER WOODS....uh, huh! Fat chance of THAT being even remotely competitive at all.

Maybe put Charles Barkley, Michael Jordan, Larry Bird, Magic Johnson, and Patrick Ewing out there as a team against the LA Lakers or Boston Celtics, too....afterall, a PRO is a PRO...yeah, right!:darkbeer:

Same thing applies in archery....

In many tournaments, the SENIOR PROS have a very tight competition and a large following and participation in shooters. ALL of us are headed there to the senior division sooner or later....and if you think that MOST 55 year old plus shooters can compete evenly against the young pups...just wait until you are 55+ and try it sometime!

field14:wink::tongue:


----------



## deadeye24

so then why not just shoot as a senior whats all the hoopla about PRO like i said before if you cant cut it with the pros then ...... and by the way im 53 years old and on a great day i can muster a 540 outdoors and i realize that score wont cut it as a pro shooter so it is what it is i still dont get the senior pro class your comparisons didnt maks any sense to me when larry bird and the like couldnt cut it as a pro what did they do hmmm oh yea they retired and senior golf pros shoot the same scores as regular pros what did tiger shoot to win the open today a 1 under par big deal help me to understand the senior PRO class


----------



## Daniel Boone

*I cant shoot as a senior in NFAA*



deadeye24 said:


> so then why not just shoot as a senior whats all the hoopla about PRO like i said before if you cant cut it with the pros then ...... and by the way im 53 years old and on a great day i can muster a 540 outdoors and i realize that score wont cut it as a pro shooter so it is what it is i still dont get the senior pro class your comparisons didnt maks any sense to me when larry bird and the like couldnt cut it as a pro what did they do hmmm oh yea they retired and senior golf pros shoot the same scores as regular pros what did tiger shoot to win the open today a 1 under par big deal help me to understand the senior PRO class


I choose to shoot ASA Pro. Goal of mine for many years. My only choice in NFAA is shoot open Pro due to rules for ASA and NFAA. Not a big deal. I just wont be shooting any NFAA. Simple as that! If you think the senior open guys can shoot and beat the pros< I dissagree.  Bottomline is I wont be shooting NFAA for a few years. I still run the state website and still support the NFAA.
DB


----------



## Blue X

*Older shooters are wise*

I shoot with a few older shooters and what they lack in youth they make up for in wisdom. 

I can see the 12 when most of them can't, but they see the extra few yards past a hump that I miss. I have shot a lot of 12's that they can't see, but they hit a lot of 10's when I get 8's. 

I do feel I have a little advantage on the indoor targets, but they have advantages over me on the outdoor targets. They always know when and where to aim off, and exactly how many yards to cut. 
So we both have advantages over the other.

One thing I've noticed about my senior shooting buddies is the one that accept thier age gracefully shoot better than the ones that are still unable to accept they have some limitations. The one that sees his limitations can make a plan to work around them. I would rather shoot with the older guys because they don't throw a fit when they miss a twelve on a turkey at 45yds.

I learned to shoot by the instruction of these older guys. They never made fun of me when I missed because of my youth limitations, they tryed to always make me better. Now the shoe is on the other foot, I am always trying to finds ways to make them better.

Go shoot wheather or not there is a specific class for you. When you do get 55 you will have 5 years experience shooting the NFAA events. In 5 years you will know where your going to stay, How the shoot is run, how long it's going to take you to get there. You will know more people who shoot in your class. All that should make it less stressfull when you are eligiable for the NFAA senior class.

You will be one of the young whipper-snappers in your class then. 
Blue X


----------



## LongTime

Every other sport and archery org. set 50 as the age for senior status. The NFAA is wrong again.


----------



## rn3

> senior golf pros shoot the same scores as regular pros


Not exactly the Senior Pro's play a lot shorter course than the regular Pro's. If age wasn't a factor there would be more 40+ U.S.Open Champions.


----------



## field14

LongTime said:


> Every other sport and archery org. set 50 as the age for senior status. The NFAA is wrong again.


I beg to differ with you...the NFAA was there FIRST..>Since 1939. The only org older might be the NAA.

However, the 3-D orgs weren't forming until the 1980's and 1990's...so...THEY might be the ones that are WRONG....in spite of their numbers.

Sometimes one has to realize who's rules and things came FIRST...and the FACT that any changes are very slow indeed when NEW KIDS ON THE BLOCK are the ones fancying up the rules....and pleasures....

Now, with that said....some STANDARDIZATION across all archery certainly would be nice:

SHAFT SIZE: standardize at 23 diameter MAX..across the board.
Seniors AGE: STANDARDIZE at 50 to be eligible for Senior Division
ELIMINATE speed limitations, but maximize poundage at 70 or 80 pounds MAX. But across the board in ALL organizations...which would make the NAA change away from its 60 pound limit...since only ONE organization would have to change on that weight limit.

I'm 61 and don't have a problem with age 50 for SENIORS in the NFAA; it shoulda been done years ago, IMHO...and move the MASTER SENIOR to age 60....or whatever.

field14


----------



## Jim Pruitte

field14 said:


> ELIMINATE speed limitations, but maximize poundage at 70 or 80 pounds MAX. But across the board in ALL organizations...which would make the NAA change away from its 60 pound limit...since only ONE organization would have to change on that weight limit.
> 
> field14


The 60 # limits isn't NAA's rule, it is FITA's. I don't think they are going to change because orgs in the US say so.


----------



## field14

Jim Pruitte said:


> The 60 # limits isn't NAA's rule, it is FITA's. I don't think they are going to change because orgs in the US say so.


You are correct, and the NAA follows the FITA rules.....

To me, the 60 pound max weight limit is FINE...but for a bowhunter/3-Der, I can well see that they would like more poundage...and it isn't a problem, really...it is those "macho guys" that have to pull all that weight for 90. 112, or 144 arrows: it is those "macho guys" that have to try to pull those arrows sunken deeper into the target bosses; it is those "macho guys" that tire out more quickly...and give us "weaklings and mere humans" points late in the round(s).

But for the sake of the game...>SPEED LIMITS as they are now set at 280 fps are BOGUS....when today's equipment has to be down-turned to get DOWN to the 280 speed limits....most bows are going well into the 305+ fps barrier or more now...so the 280 fps...is totally BOGUS and needs to be updated.

To what? Heck I dunno....pick a number....

field14


----------



## deadeye24

again making the age 50 doesnt change a thing i still havent got a reply that explains senior pro either your a pro or a senior which one is it and even as an amatuer senior if you cant shoot in the 40s on a field course you you are not going to win anything even if they change the age to 50 for senior pro whats to be gained as a senior


----------



## JAVI

deadeye24 said:


> again making the age 50 doesnt change a thing i still havent got a reply that explains senior pro either your a pro or a senior which one is it and even as an amatuer senior if you cant shoot in the 40s on a field course you you are not going to win anything even if they change the age to 50 for senior pro whats to be gained as a senior


A senior pro is a professional archer who has reached the age of 50, in every organization other than the NFAA where the age is 55. A professional archer is someone who competes for a cash prize and contingency monies from the manufacturers as opposed to an amateur who is usually competing for bragging rights and a trophy. The contingency monies normally far exceed the prize fund and are only available to those with pro status whether it be in the 18 to 50/54 age group or the 50/55 plus group. 

It is also a requirement that you shoot pro in the NFAA if you compete as a professional in any other archery organization. In Dan’s case, he is a 3-D shooter of some note and is competitive in the ASA Senior Pro division, but he is not an experienced field or indoor shooter. However, because of the NFAA’s age limitations Dan would be required to enter any sanctioned event as a professional despite the fact that he would not be remotely competitive with Jesse Broadwater, Dave Cousins or any of the other younger professionals in those events. His lack of competitiveness isn’t attributed as much to his age but rather to experience in these events. 

This isn’t important to you but to a professional required to either sit out the events or pay the pro fees and entry monies for the fun of shooting it does. Dan and others like him would love to support the NFAA, but because of the rules they must donate to the younger generation or sit out the events. Many of us would like to this change and those in the gap be allowed to compete with their peers from other organizations instead of the young guns.


----------



## brtesite

Javi, this comes up all the time about the age thing.

you not only have the problem of the pros who want to compete @ age 50, but if it gets changed to 50, you have the guys who are 64, competing with 50 year olds that woul;d like to win a bowl . Don't know what the answer is. Maybe a solution would be to have 50 the age for Pros only & leave the am's at 55.
what ever it is, is in the hands of the directors. Get yours to write it up again.


----------



## field14

brtesite said:


> Javi, this comes up all the time about the age thing.
> 
> you not only have the problem of the pros who want to compete @ age 50, but if it gets changed to 50, you have the guys who are 64, competing with 50 year olds that woul;d like to win a bowl . Don't know what the answer is. Maybe a solution would be to have 50 the age for Pros only & leave the am's at 55.
> what ever it is, is in the hands of the directors. Get yours to write it up again.


I think the answer lies in "odd man out"...that is, in spite of the NFAA being among the OLDEST orgs....it is high time that perhaps the NFAA got proactive, and STANDARDIZED with the REST OF THE WORLD with regard to the Seniors...at age 50....since the NFAA is the ONLY one hanging on to the albatross with the age 55 thing....

The NFAA is the one hurting for membership, having problems with people being put off by the rules, and other "things"....so, it would seem to me....that it is high time for the NFAA to see the light and to step off the pedestal and go along with the flow instead of against it. But then again, that would be seen as a "negative" thing....and contrary to the interests of the organization or archery in general.:wink::tongue:

But....submitting an agenda item to get this changed? Fat chance of it ever getting off the floor at the Director's meeting....

The other orgs that are at age 50 for seniors are the ones GROWING...and the NFAA is the one out on the limb.....

field14


----------



## ShakesTheClown

deadeye, I'm not sure what you don't understand about being a senior pro.

The NFAA already has a senior pro division for pros 55 and over, just like golf has their senior pros except that pro golfers become a senior at 50. 50 seems to be the magic number for most sports and all the other archery organizations except the NFAA.

This isn't about catering to any individual or group, but rather what is best for NFAA participation.

I, like you, am in my early 50's. My first love is field archery and probably what I do best. I currently average in the mid to low 540s. However, I also like to shoot FITA shoots. Like most people, I can't go to every shoot that's out there, so, if it comes down to a choice between an NFAA shoot or a FITA shoot I go to the FITA shoot where I can shoot against guys my age. If both organizations were the same and seniors started at 50, I'd probably always choose the NFAA shoot.

I'm not complaining. 55 will be here soon enough. But, in the meantime, how much participation is the NFAA losing because of guys like me and DB?

And, that is the point. What is best for the growth and participation of the NFAA.


----------



## ShakesTheClown

Oh, and field14, the NAA was founded in, I believe, 1879. 

Also, if the NFAA were to change seniors to 50 it would then make sense to drop master senior to 60. That would also be in line with what other organizations are doing I'm pretty sure.


----------



## field14

ShakesTheClown said:


> Oh, and field14, the NAA was founded in, I believe, 1879.


Good. I knew that they had been around a long, long time...then the NFAA in 1939 and the 3-D orgs AFTER that....nearly 50 years after that!

Now, here sits the NFAA out on a limb all by themselves in many regards, and the SENIOR DIVISION AGE being one of the BIG sticklers. NFAA is having attendance and MEMBERSHIP problems...and yet continues to buck the system and be out by themselves on this very issue, along with SHAFT SIZE restrictions, etc ,etc, etc.

EVERY TIME that the change to age 50 for seniors has been brought up...it has been turned down...and yet....the NFAA is the ONLY PLACE (well WAF, too) that has seniors at at 55!!! By themselves, turning away people....as always.....

field14


----------



## brtesite

field14 said:


> I think the answer lies in "odd man out"...that is, in spite of the NFAA being among the OLDEST orgs....it is high time that perhaps the NFAA got proactive, and STANDARDIZED with the REST OF THE WORLD with regard to the Seniors...at age 50....since the NFAA is the ONLY one hanging on to the albatross with the age 55 thing....
> 
> The NFAA is the one hurting for membership, having problems with people being put off by the rules, and other "things"....so, it would seem to me....that it is high time for the NFAA to see the light and to step off the pedestal and go along with the flow instead of against it. But then again, that would be seen as a "negative" thing....and contrary to the interests of the organization or archery in general.:wink::tongue:
> 
> But....submitting an agenda item to get this changed? Fat chance of it ever getting off the floor at the Director's meeting....
> 
> The other orgs that are at age 50 for seniors are the ones GROWING...and the NFAA is the one out on the limb.....
> 
> field14


 well then fat chance of it ever happening if you don't get it written up. 
this way you will always have something to B--ch about.


----------



## FS560

You guys are using tunnel vision to study only the 50 to 54 age shooters. Do you think a shooter 58 or 59 wants to shoot against 50 year olds?

Next we will have 40 to 44 year olds not wanting to shoot against 20 year olds.

Maybe we should create more small freebie ponds and age groups every five years. Or maybe three year groups. There will always be those that want their own small freebie pond and for sure will want to change it when they outgrow that.

If we change it to 50, there will be just as many 55 year olds quitting as you expect to retain at age 50 with the change.

It is always something!!!!!!!


----------



## JAVI

FS560 said:


> You guys are using tunnel vision to study only the 50 to 54 age shooters. Do you think a shooter 58 or 59 wants to shoot against 50 year olds?  I'd rather shoot against 50 year olds than 60+ year olds... Y'all fall asleep too easy
> 
> Next we will have 40 to 44 year olds not wanting to shoot against 20 year olds.
> 
> Maybe we should create more small freebie ponds and age groups every five years. Or maybe three year groups. There will always be those that want their own small freebie pond and for sure will want to change it when they outgrow that.
> 
> If we change it to 50, there will be just as many 55 year olds quitting as you expect to retain at age 50 with the change.
> 
> It is always something!!!!!!!


I normally agree with many of the statements you make, but this time I call BS...:wink: Just set the age brackets like every other archery organization and get over it...


----------



## field14

brtesite said:


> well then fat chance of it ever happening if you don't get it written up.
> this way you will always have something to B--ch about.


The wording would have to be all too perfect, non-offensive, politically correct, and have the blessings of the illustrious sooth-sayers; not to mention needing a fotune teller, a lawyer, and philantropist, and a clarivoyant in order to figure out just what MIGHT be needed to get the proposal a second glance.....
THEN....one would never know what, if anything was wrong with the proposal in order to try again WHEN it fails the first time, then having to figure it all out again a YEAR later to try again....since nobody would be talking....

field14:wink::tongue:


----------



## JAVI

field14 said:


> The wording would have to be all too perfect, non-offensive, politically correct, and have the blessings of the illustrious sooth-sayers; not to mention needing a fotune teller, a lawyer, and philantropist, and a clarivoyant in order to figure out just what MIGHT be needed to get the proposal a second glance.....
> THEN....one would never know what, if anything was wrong with the proposal in order to try again WHEN it fails the first time, then having to figure it all out again a YEAR later to try again....since nobody would be talking....
> 
> field14:wink::tongue:



Perhaps the quickest way to get it passed would be to get Jim Easton to back it....:wink:


----------



## field14

JAVI said:


> Perhaps the quickest way to get it passed would be to get Jim Easton to back it....:wink:


For the NFAA to "standardize" and go with the flow of the rest of the organizations would, to some in leadership positions be construed as heresy!

In addition, the agenda item to change senior division to 50 and align the senior and even Master Senior with the rest of the archery world would be construed by "some of the leadership"....as...."a personal agenda that doesn't have the best interests of the organization or archery in general in mind at all." Heard that story before....

field14:wink::tongue:


----------



## JAVI

field14 said:


> For the NFAA to "standardize" and go with the flow of the rest of the organizations would, to some in leadership positions be construed as heresy!
> 
> In addition, the agenda item to change senior division to 50 and align the senior and even Master Senior with the rest of the archery world would be construed by "some of the leadership"....as...."a personal agenda that doesn't have the best interests of the organization or archery in general in mind at all." Heard that story before....
> 
> field14:wink::tongue:


I think Easton could get it done with a phone call and a meal...


----------



## Hutnicks

JAVI said:


> I think Easton could get it done with a phone call and a meal...


Probably don't even need the meal:wink:


----------



## brtesite

JAVI said:


> I normally agree with many of the statements you make, but this time I call BS...:wink: Just set the age brackets like every other archery organization and get over it...



what happens to the 75 yr olds against the 60 yr olds


----------



## field14

brtesite said:


> what happens to the 75 yr olds against the 60 yr olds


Mike,
The same thing that happens to them in the other orgs....STANDARDIZATION for a change.

What happens to the 54 year olds competing against the 20 year-olds now? Same difference.......

Again, since the NFAA is the "odd ball"....isn't it high time they join the rest of the world?....since the NFAA is the one that is going downhill in participation and membership? Sure needs a shot in the arm....and CHANGE is imminent anyways.

The problem, is, however....writing the agenda item in the "correct format" and then getting it accepted and past the first reading (and laughs)....probably next to impossible to get done; since it has been tried and tried and tried again...and failed every single time.

field14:wink::tongue:


----------



## rock monkey

ok....lets make the change to drop the senior's age to 50. 

can we make the semi-pro class for the 40 to 50 year old shooters only since we're only semi-competitive with the younger top guns? would make sense to me. how many of us older shooters have the time and energy to put in the same amount of effort as the younger shooters? you'd have a ton of shooters flooding the semi-pro ranks because they dont have to shoot against the wonder kids. sure the pots would be reduced, but so would the entry fees. instead of $250 per head for a pot of 5k, make it $150 or $200 for a pot of $3k or $3.5k . semi-pro, semi-competitive, semi-rewarding.

with age comes changes in temperament. it's 20 yds all the time every time. speed and strength is not a requirement in archery, form and finesse is. it is why you see 70yr old archers that can shoot just as good as anyone else.


----------



## FS560

field14 said:


> The problem, is, however....writing the agenda item in the "correct format" and then getting it accepted and past the first reading (and laughs)....probably next to impossible to get done; since it has been tried and tried and tried again...and failed every single time.
> 
> field14:wink::tongue:


Every time the 50 year age for seniors has been introduced as an agenda item, it has gone to the full board for a vote.

I wish you would get off this vendetta thing about "correct format" and "first reading" continual criticism of the annual meeting procedures because NFAA did not send you a registered formal explanation why your rule changes did not pass a few years ago.

You know full well what the "correct format" is because I know you can read and understand the constitution and that the agenda item form has been posted in various places on the NFAA website, both as a template and as actual agenda items, many of which have become rule.

I know that you can understand that the legislative procedures do not set forth a "first reading".

Furthermore, if you need an explanation of exactly why any particular agenda item failed to pass, you should talk with your director for that explanation.

The normal reason any agenda item would fail to pass is not enough votes in favor.


----------



## treeman65

Next someone will wine to have the age for the cub class raised to 21 cause they cant compete with the 30 year olds.


----------



## target1

JAVI said:


> Perhaps the quickest way to get it passed would be to get Jim Easton to back it....:wink:


that is funny...but true. 

9.3


----------



## abe archer

From what I read in the last NFAA Archery magazine they want to do away with the classes and just have one class called shoot what you bring. That should do alot to help you.

I worry about the way they are heading. Instead of cutting classes maybe they should cut expenses at the top.


----------



## field14

abe archer said:


> From what I read in the last NFAA Archery magazine they want to do away with the classes and just have one class called shoot what you bring. That should do alot to help you.
> 
> I worry about the way they are heading. Instead of cutting classes maybe they should cut expenses at the top.


A 500 is a 500 regardless of the equipment used to shoot it with, IMHO.

"easier" with a site/release aid? Maybe, maybe not.

Shoot what you bring? I'm fine with that...with "some restrictions".

The 280 fps speed limit is obsolete and needs updating...many people are already having to go to heavier arrows or reduce draw weight to get their bow speeds DOWN to 280 fps.

I still go along with the 80 pound max peak weight, however.

The shoot whatcha bring would sure streamline things and clear the garbage out of the equipment rules.....

Shoot whatcha bring...would sure make it easier to have NFAA participants...as then, IBO 3-D rigs would be legal too...80 pound max peak weight and that's about it for equipment limitations...

THAT...and...ARROW SHAFT SIZE restrictions...but the NFAA is the ONLY organization that doesn't have an arrow size restriction anyways...so the NFAA would finally "catch up."

field14:wink::wink::tongue:


----------



## FS560

That's right! Shoot what you bring, except for your two pet restrictions.

Everyone always has some personal agenda of restrictions to place on someone else.


----------



## Hutnicks

FS560 said:


> That's right! Shoot what you bring, except for your two pet restrictions.
> 
> Everyone always has some personal agenda of restrictions to place on someone else.


 :darkbeer:


----------



## field14

FS560 said:


> That's right! Shoot what you bring, except for your two pet restrictions.
> 
> Everyone always has some personal agenda of restrictions to place on someone else.


Jim,

Did anyone from the NFAA/WAF get on LANCASTER'S case as having a "personal agenda" when they put in a SHAFT SIZE restriction of 2712 4 days before the 2008 tournament? Of course not...the Lancaster tournament is NOT sanctioned thru the NFAA/WAF...so the NFAA/WAF didn't have squat to say about it.

Nothing to do with MY "pet restrictions"....just look at the rules of the OTHER organizations...ALL but the NFAA have shaft size limits. Prior polls on AT showed the shooters WANT SOME KIND OF RESTRICTION on shaft size...and several NFAA state directors have polled their memberships...but of course the results were NOT told (yet) to the constituents...must be a secret or somthing?

The FITA/NAA has a 60 pound max weight limit and has for quite some time.

I think the NFAA is generous with the 80 pound limit...but the 280 fps rule is antiquated and needs to be updated to keep up with technology.

Ain't no 'personal agenda' anyways....size restrictions will put the game back on track instead of it being an arms race to see who can get the fattest shaft to shoot outta their bow.

The polls on AT clearly showed that the "no limits" is NOT the direction people want it to go within the WAF/NFAA...but then, other "leaders" of the NFAA, with their "own personal agendas" would perhaps rather see it just fade away so they don't have to make a decision, or maybe muster it around so they get yet another year and a half to incorporate some shaft size limit of some sort or other...with more time for "data gathering and analysis."

With regard to shaft size limits...NO LIMITS is endangering the integrity of the INDOOR game. It is ridiculous to be able to darn near just touch the white on the NFAA face and still get an X....if no shaft size limits are implemented...then 1" or more diameters will be forthcoming....some challenge that is...The ONLY challenge being trying to get them to fly when the person shoots low poundage or a short drawlength.

Myself, I'll remain a member of the NFAA regardless...and for 2009, will most likely be a member of TWO state associations; deciding in February or so which of the two I will declare as my "competitive state."

field14


----------



## Hutnicks

field14 said:


> Jim,
> Nothing to do with MY "pet restrictions"....just look at the rules of the OTHER organizations...ALL but the NFAA have shaft size limits. Prior polls on AT showed the shooters WANT SOME KIND OF RESTRICTION on shaft size...and several NFAA state directors have polled their memberships...but of course the results were NOT told (yet) to the constituents...must be a secret or somthing?
> 
> The FITA/NAA has a 60 pound max weight limit and has for quite some time.
> 
> I think the NFAA is generous with the 80 pound limit...but the 280 fps rule is antiquated and needs to be updated to keep up with technology.
> 
> Ain't no 'personal agenda' anyways....size restrictions will put the game back on track instead of it being an arms race to see who can get the fattest shaft to shoot outta their bow.
> 
> The polls on AT clearly showed that the "no limits" is NOT the direction people want it to go within the WAF/NFAA...but then, other "leaders" of the NFAA, with their "own personal agendas" would perhaps rather see it just fade away so they don't have to make a decision, or maybe muster it around so they get yet another year and a half to incorporate some shaft size limit of some sort or other...with more time for "data gathering and analysis."
> 
> With regard to shaft size limits...NO LIMITS is endangering the integrity of the INDOOR game. It is ridiculous to be able to darn near just touch the white on the NFAA face and still get an X....if no shaft size limits are implemented...then 1" or more diameters will be forthcoming....some challenge that is...The ONLY challenge being trying to get them to fly when the person shoots low poundage or a short drawlength.
> 
> Myself, I'll remain a member of the NFAA regardless...and for 2009, will most likely be a member of TWO state associations; deciding in February or so which of the two I will declare as my "competitive state."
> 
> field14


Personally I'd love to see poundage and speed limits removed. If someone wants to shoot one of those gawdawful old McPhersons at 105lbs on the draw , go ahead, you won't be competing for long:wink: Speed limits make about as much sense in archery as they do in any other shooting sport.

The arrow size thing is ludicrous and I don't think there is anyone who doesn't realize that. The limit will happen just as soon as current stocks run out


----------



## 60Xbulldog60X

Hutnicks said:


> Personally I'd love to see poundage and speed limits removed. If someone wants to shoot one of those gawdawful old McPhersons at 105lbs on the draw , go ahead, you won't be competing for long:wink: Speed limits make about as much sense in archery as they do in any other shooting sport.
> 
> The arrow size thing is ludicrous and I don't think there is anyone who doesn't realize that. The limit will happen just as soon as current stocks run out


Not to start an argument but I disagree with your thinking. The poundage issue I agree on but the speed and arrow size I don't agree with. I think the speed needs to be regulated so that there is no decisive advantage for the long draw shooters. Even with that the long draw shooters can reach the magical speed of 280 at lower poundage but most everyone can reach that speed nowadays with the technology of the equipment. The arrow size would be the most important of the three in my opinion. Big arrows wreak havoc on targets of any kind. Sure, if you only have one or two targets to deal with, it is no biggy. But if you have numerous amounts of targets to contend with then it is a different story. If somone has never had to rebuild a bunch of targets then they would not realize what is involved to do so along with the expense. I myself just finished rebuilding 20 targets from the ground up on our field range. It took four whole days and a part of another to get it done with very mimimal breaks for some rest and cooling off. It is nothing short of a tall order. The end result is a beautiful range and a lot of happy members that are shooting more because of it. In the past 20 years, I have not seen as much enthusiasm or participation from club members and non club members. 

In the end, I am well pleased and satisfied with the going ons, but it's somthing that I would not want to do on a regular basis.

Please don't take this the wrong way, but there is many more ways to look at things than just ONE way.

Take care,

Kendall


----------



## Hutnicks

60Xbulldog60X said:


> Not to start an argument but I disagree with your thinking. The poundage issue I agree on but the speed and arrow size I don't agree with. I think the speed needs to be regulated so that there is no decisive advantage for the long draw shooters. Even with that the long draw shooters can reach the magical speed of 280 at lower poundage but most everyone can reach that speed nowadays with the technology of the equipment. The arrow size would be the most important of the three in my opinion. Big arrows wreak havoc on targets of any kind. Sure, if you only have one or two targets to deal with, it is no biggy. But if you have numerous amounts of targets to contend with then it is a different story. If somone has never had to rebuild a bunch of targets then they would not realize what is involved to do so along with the expense. I myself just finished rebuilding 20 targets from the ground up on our field range. It took four whole days and a part of another to get it done with very mimimal breaks for some rest and cooling off. It is nothing short of a tall order. The end result is a beautiful range and a lot of happy members that are shooting more because of it. In the past 20 years, I have not seen as much enthusiasm or participation from club members and non club members.
> 
> In the end, I am well pleased and satisfied with the going ons, but it's somthing that I would not want to do on a regular basis.
> 
> Please don't take this the wrong way, but there is many more ways to look at things than just ONE way.
> 
> Take care,
> 
> Kendall


I must have worded that less than clearly. I'm all for arrow regs I'm just realistic enough to know that it won't happen until the ahem:embara:"special Interest group" allows it. (more thatn happy to see the woldwide FITA standard shaft limit size, in fact)

Still think no speed limit is the way to go. I do not think the technology should be held back to accommodate short draw archers (I consider myself one) if you have a long draw good on you. Not much different than having an advantage in eyesight or strength and we don't regulate against them. The short draw thing always annoys me as it is seen as being a handicapped archer somehow. If anything, allowing and encouraging speed development will benefit the short draw archer more than most. We will really reach a point in development where in fact, the longer draw will be a diminishing return with the compound, and I'd like to see it get there sooner than faster.
Or we could apply the obverse of the short draw argument and look at long draw archers as having an "unfair advantage" and make em all shoot with a d-loop lengthened to reduce their draw to 28" in all cases:wink:


----------



## Daniel Boone

*Shooting ASA senior pro will save me money*

Cant shoot against the seniors in NFAA. Not shooting open pro.:wink:

Cant shoot state ASA qaulifers because there is no pro class.

Its the ASA Senior tour events.

Always Lancasters and KC Pro am shoot out. No wonder Lancasters has twice the numbers in the seniors.

50 just makes to much sense. Would strengthan the senior class in numbers.

Wow this different assc penalizing someone for shooting ASA senior pro makes lots of sense.


Been a strong supporter of NFAA. Going to be hard to support a assc that penalizes me for shooting in another assc as a pro.

Good thing it will save me money from attending NFAA events.
DB


----------



## field14

Daniel Boone said:


> Cant shoot against the seniors in NFAA. Not shooting open pro.:wink:
> 
> Cant shoot state ASA qaulifers because there is no pro class.
> 
> Its the ASA Senior tour events.
> 
> Always Lancasters and KC Pro am shoot out. No wonder Lancasters has twice the numbers in the seniors.
> 
> 50 just makes to much sense. Would strengthan the senior class in numbers.
> 
> Wow this different assc penalizing someone for shooting ASA senior pro makes lots of sense.
> 
> 
> Been a strong supporter of NFAA. Going to be hard to support a assc that penalizes me for shooting in another assc as a pro.
> 
> Good thing it will save me money from attending NFAA events.
> DB


Dan,
You and I know that what you say makes sense....but we are preaching to the choir.

Trying to change the NFAA senior division to age 50 has been tried and tried again...but then comes the "next step"..and that is changing Master Senior from 65 to 60....and the "old codgers" at that end of the scale are the same old codgers that are directing....so fat chance of that...

Gotta save your own turf, you know.

NAA hasn't a problem with 50 and 60 for their senior divisions...but....NFAA...well, they only change when there is a "phone call made", or when there is an ice age in h**l.....

Yeah, I know, there will be two on here that will chime in and say, "put in yet another agenda item concerning the issue and try again".

But we know that it will simply fail, wo why bother wasting the time, effort, paper, and ink.

field14:tongue::wink:


----------



## Daniel Boone

*Nfaa*



field14 said:


> Dan,
> You and I know that what you say makes sense....but we are preaching to the choir.
> 
> Trying to change the NFAA senior division to age 50 has been tried and tried again...but then comes the "next step"..and that is changing Master Senior from 65 to 60....and the "old codgers" at that end of the scale are the same old codgers that are directing....so fat chance of that...
> 
> Gotta save your own turf, you know.
> 
> NAA hasn't a problem with 50 and 60 for their senior divisions...but....NFAA...well, they only change when there is a "phone call made", or when there is an ice age in h**l.....
> 
> Yeah, I know, there will be two on here that will chime in and say, "put in yet another agenda item concerning the issue and try again".
> 
> But we know that it will simply fail, wo why bother wasting the time, effort, paper, and ink.
> 
> field14:tongue::wink:



Should take a vote from the senior pros. I have disscussed it with most of them and most would like to see the division grow like others assc that have growing numbers. Steve Boylan who is the top shooter in that class would love to see growth. Just makes good comman sense!
DB


----------



## WV Has Been

Daniel Boone said:


> Should take a vote from the senior pros. I have disscussed it with most of them and most would like to see the division grow like others assc that have growing numbers. Steve Boylan who is the top shooter in that class would love to see growth. Just makes good comman sense!
> DB


Dan I understand you defending your opinion on a standard age for senior and I wont even disagree. I would love to see consistency from org to org.

My question is where do think this growth you speak of will come from. I cant see a hundred or even a quarter of that number jumping into NFAA style archery because of an age change in the senior pro class. 

I see your point on a standard but not a growth in archery but keep fighting for what you believe in tiger.:wink:


----------



## Daniel Boone

*Just look at the numbers*



WV Has Been said:


> Dan I understand you defending your opinion on a standard age for senior and I wont even disagree. I would love to see consistency from org to org.
> 
> My question is where do think this growth you speak of will come from. I cant see a hundred or even a quarter of that number jumping into NFAA style archery because of an age change in the senior pro class.
> 
> I see your point on a standard but not a growth in archery but keep fighting for what you believe in tiger.:wink:


ASA averages more seniors than the NFAA. Lancasters has proven that many will shoot it. You lose alot between 50 and 55yrs. Numbers would only increase for this class if lowered to 50. We need everyone on the same page.
DB


----------



## Bob_Looney

If people don't compete in the NFAA Pro class because they "can't win" it won't change in the Seniors even if they change the age to 40.

If they can't beat Allan Ruddock or Dennis Nealy they're not going to win outdoors.
If they can't beat Steve Boylan indoors they won't win there either.

Get rid of all the divisions as well as the age groups and flight by score.
Shoot what you bring.


----------



## Hutnicks

Bob_Looney said:


> If people don't compete in the NFAA Pro class because they "can't win" it won't change in the Seniors even if they change the age to 40.
> 
> If they can't beat Allan Ruddock or Dennis Nealy they're not going to win outdoors.
> If they can't beat Steve Boylan indoors they won't win there either.
> 
> Get rid of all the divisions as well as the age groups and flight by score.
> Shoot what you bring.


In the words of David Byrne. "Stop Making Sense":wink:

Funny how hiding behind age is an acceptable alternative to grading by skill level, all of a sudden. I blame that joke of a Senoirs PGA tour for starting that one:becky:


----------



## JAVI

I don't 'spect it's such a joke to Hale Irwin....:wink:


----------



## PUG

*???*



Daniel Boone said:


> ASA averages more seniors than the NFAA. Lancasters has proven that many will shoot it. You lose alot between 50 and 55yrs. Numbers would only increase for this class if lowered to 50. We need everyone on the same page.
> DB



What does it matter if they (50-54 year olds) are shooting the am classes??...As long as the org sees the attendance numbers as being appropriate overall why would there be a reason to change?? If the senior pros want more money, then they need to shoot open pro....

Im all about the flight system...Shoot what ya bring...Last archer standing...


----------



## Hutnicks

JAVI said:


> I don't 'spect it's such a joke to Hale Irwin....:wink:


Wouldn't be too sure of that. How could you beat on guys you never had a sniff at in your prime and not laugh. Get paid for it too.


----------



## rock monkey

:moviecorn


----------



## JAVI

Let me see if I understand this correctly...

All the senior archery pros are a joke, and should either stop shooting or just shoot in the kiddy pro class where they have zero chance of winning because of aging eyesight and reflexes. 

:wink:


----------



## Hutnicks

JAVI said:


> Let me see if I understand this correctly...
> 
> All the senior archery pros are a joke, and should either stop shooting or just shoot in the kiddy pro class where they have zero chance of winning because of aging eyesight and reflexes.
> 
> :wink:


Your words, not mine:wink: I think the senior PGA is a joke and referred to it only as the worst possible model to use.

Now then aging eyesight and reflexes may count as a disability, perhaps an adaptive archery programme is more in order here.:becky:

I'm just not crazy about "career extension" sport classes. When the physical starts to go, why not go back down a class and spread the gained knowledge from years of pro competition to the next generation on the way up?


----------



## JAVI

Hutnicks said:


> Your words, not mine:wink: I think the senior PGA is a joke and referred to it only as the worst possible model to use.
> 
> Now then aging eyesight and reflexes may count as a disability, perhaps an adaptive archery programme is more in order here.:becky:
> 
> I'm just not crazy about "career extension" sport classes. When the physical starts to go, why not go back down a class and spread the gained knowledge from years of pro competition to the next generation on the way up?


A lot of us do share the knowledge with others, and we may be old and blind but we still have a fire to compete with our peers many of whom we've shot with for years.. Then there are those of us who because of family obligations could never devote the time or money to compete on a regular basis when we were younger..

When we do try to drop back to the amateur ranks, all we hear is " he's a pro, it ought to be against the rules for him to shoot in this class..." And believe me we do hear it... and they are probably right... we don't belong in the kiddy pro ranks anymore but we don't belong in the amateurs either... 

Maybe we should do like the old herd bulls, and wonder off to die... before the steers... gore us at the trough...


----------



## Hutnicks

JAVI said:


> A lot of us do share the knowledge with others, and we may be old and blind but we still have a fire to compete with our peers many of whom we've shot with for years.. Then there are those of us who because of family obligations could never devote the time or money to compete on a regular basis when we were younger..
> 
> When we do try to drop back to the amateur ranks, all we hear is " he's a pro, it ought to be against the rules for him to shoot in this class..." And believe me we do hear it... and they are probably right... we don't belong in the kiddy pro ranks anymore but we don't belong in the amateurs either...
> 
> Maybe we should do like the old herd bulls, and wonder off to die... before the steers... gore us at the trough...


Go north, sit on an ice flow and wait for a polar bear:wink:

In all seriousness with the thin pickens out there for the pro ranks as it is, do you honestly think expanding a class is going to be beneficial to the overall fiscal health of the species?

Methinks you are years away from that kind of expansion.


----------



## JAVI

Hutnicks said:


> Go north, sit on an ice flow and wait for a polar bear:wink:
> 
> In all seriousness with the thin pickens out there for the pro ranks as it is, do you honestly think expanding a class is going to be beneficial to the overall fiscal health of the species?
> 
> Methinks you are years away from that kind of expansion.


Ok I’m going to be serious for a minute. 

Please remember that what I’m about to say is not meant with malice toward anyone. 

In my opinion, the NFAA is missing the boat with the age brackets for both amateur and professional alike. But it is their club and the old guys who are afraid to have the 60-65 year olds shoot with them have decided that it isn’t going to happen. So be it.. 

For most amateurs it makes no difference anyway they are there for the fun and to visit; it is a vacation to them. However, the professional that falls into the gap is not going to be jumping up and down to donate to the kids and unless receiving expenses from their sponsors will just stay home. Those pros who are receiving the stipends and appearance monies will still show up and work. Nevertheless, despite the love we have for archery when you pay the pro entry fees and expenses to eight or ten tournaments a year it is an investment and not a vacation. As with any investment, one has to choose when to gamble and when to sit it out… 

The problem here is the fact that the professional archer is dependent on amateurs to decide how and when they can compete.. Like any other professional sport, we need an association whose sole purpose is to grow the sport of professional archery and not be the ugly stepchild of an amateur club whose purpose is diametrically opposed to the growth of professional archery.


----------



## Hutnicks

JAVI said:


> Ok I’m going to be serious for a minute.
> 
> Please remember that what I’m about to say is not meant with malice toward anyone.
> 
> In my opinion, the NFAA is missing the boat with the age brackets for both amateur and professional alike. But it is their club and the old guys who are afraid to have the 60-65 year olds shoot with them have decided that it isn’t going to happen. So be it..
> 
> For most amateurs it makes no difference anyway they are there for the fun and to visit; it is a vacation to them. However, the professional that falls into the gap is not going to be jumping up and down to donate to the kids and unless receiving expenses from their sponsors will just stay home. Those pros who are receiving the stipends and appearance monies will still show up and work. Nevertheless, despite the love we have for archery when you pay the pro entry fees and expenses to eight or ten tournaments a year it is an investment and not a vacation. As with any investment, one has to choose when to gamble and when to sit it out…
> 
> The problem here is the fact that the professional archer is dependent on amateurs to decide how and when they can compete.. Like any other professional sport, we need an association whose sole purpose is to grow the sport of professional archery and not be the ugly stepchild of an amateur club whose purpose is diametrically opposed to the growth of professional archery.


I don't see anything malicious in there at all. I've long been a proponent of the professional class taking charge of the destiny of that segment of the sport. Amateur archery and professional archery by their very nature are going to be moving in opposite directions, and taking your carreer into your own hands is always more beneficial than leaving it in someone elses. Particularly when that particular someone else is serving (or servicing "other interests")

You see what I mean by being a few years away from a senoir's class. I believe you have larger dragons to slay before that one:wink:


----------



## JAVI

Hutnicks said:


> I don't see anything malicious in there at all. I've long been a proponent of the professional class taking charge of the destiny of that segment of the sport. Amateur archery and professional archery by their very nature are going to be moving in opposite directions, and taking your carreer into your own hands is always more beneficial than leaving it in someone elses. Particularly when that particular someone else is serving (or servicing "other interests")
> 
> You see what I mean by being a few years away from a senoir's class. I believe you have larger dragons to slay before that one:wink:


We already have a senior pro division with decent contingency money from the manufacturers. Is the pot limited? Of course and partially by the lack of participation at some events because of the age gap thingy. And there are a goodly number of members, however because of the NFAA's hardheadness many just never shoot in the NFAA tournaments... unless they are the few receiving finacial aid from the sponsors there is no reason to show up and donate to the kids. 

By the way no one really knows the actual number of registered professional men, senior men, freestyle limited and women because that information isn't published or available to the rank and file.


----------



## Hutnicks

JAVI said:


> We already have a senior pro division with descent contingency money from the manufacturers. Is the pot limited? Of course and partially by the lack of participation at some events because of the age gap thingy. And there are a goodly number of members, however because of the NFAA's hardheadness many just never shoot in the NFAA tournaments... unless they are the few receiving finacial aid from the sponsors there is no reason to show up and donate to the kids.
> 
> By the way no one really knows the actual number of registered professional men, senior men, freestyle limited and women because that information isn't published or available to the rank and file.


Which would indeed, indicate that some form of _*organization*_ is required here.


----------



## JAVI

Hutnicks said:


> Which would indeed, indicate that some form of _*organization*_ is required here.


But that begs the question…. Do we all go home until someone steps up or do we continue to fight the status quo while trying to grow the sport…

To do the first is to accomplish nothing, but to do the second is sometimes frustratingly unproductive.


----------



## Daniel Boone

*As Seniors*



PUG said:


> What does it matter if they (50-54 year olds) are shooting the am classes??...As long as the org sees the attendance numbers as being appropriate overall why would there be a reason to change?? If the senior pros want more money, then they need to shoot open pro....
> 
> Im all about the flight system...Shoot what ya bring...Last archer standing...


We are trying to help build this class. Apparently your not the age of Seniors.
Would like to hear your opionion when your a Senior.
DB


----------



## Hutnicks

JAVI said:


> But that begs the question…. Do we all go home until someone steps up or do we continue to fight the status quo while trying to grow the sport…
> 
> To do the first is to accomplish nothing, but to do the second is sometimes frustratingly unproductive.


Something about "City Hall" springs to mind. There are times when something is broken to the point beyond repair. At that time it's usually wise the re muster the resources and consider implementing a new solution.


----------



## WV Has Been

Daniel Boone said:


> We are trying to help build this class. Apparently your not the age of Seniors.
> Would like to hear your opionion when your a Senior.
> DB


If you want to build the class just drop senior pro to the age of 40. :tongue::tongue::tongue:

I don't think the growth of the class is your number one priority. If your age was 40 would you still be fighting this battle?

I say concentrate on the growth of archery and the senior class will grow with it. I see no potential growth in archery by dropping the age in the NFAA senior class to age 50 but I would be nice for all the orgs/assoc to be on the same page.


----------



## JAVI

WV Has Been said:


> If you want to build the class just drop senior pro to the age of 40. :tongue::tongue::tongue:
> 
> I don't think the growth of the class is your number one priority. If your age was 40 would you still be fighting this battle?
> 
> I say concentrate on the growth of archery and the senior class will grow with it. I see no potential growth in archery by dropping the age in the NFAA senior class to age 50 but I would be nice for all the orgs/assoc to be on the same page.


It would not increase the number of archers in the world, but it would more than likely bring in some of the 3D senior pros and those NFAA pros who just sit out the tournaments until 55...


----------



## Bob_Looney

why are they sitting out till 55?


----------



## Daniel Boone

*Once again*



Bob_Looney said:


> why are they sitting out till 55?


ASA Senior Pro is forced to shoot open pro untell he is 55 in NFAA. Personally it shouldnt matter what the ASA does  If your going off standards set by other assc get on the same page. 
DB


----------



## JAVI

Bob_Looney said:


> why are they sitting out till 55?


Why donate the pro entry fees to the kids... While some 50-54 year olds can occasionally hang with the young ones, it is not the normal everyday thing... Why spend your entry fees and expense money in a tournament you have a 1 in 10,000 chance of winning when the same money in another venue is a better bet... Put them with their peers and then it is even... 

What most amateurs fail to realize or admit is that to a pro this is a business (even if it is a second job) and it isn't one national tournament a year it is 10, 12 even 15 tournaments a year spread out from January to August, often times on back to back weekends.


----------



## Hutnicks

JAVI said:


> Why donate the pro entry fees to the kids... While some 50-54 year olds can occasionally hang with the young ones, it is not the normal everyday thing... Why spend your entry fees and expense money in a tournament you have a 1 in 10,000 chance of winning when the same money in another venue is a better bet... Put them with their peers and then it is even...
> 
> What most amateurs fail to realize or admit is that to a pro this is a business (even if it is a second job) and it isn't one national tournament a year it is 10, 12 even 15 tournaments a year spread out from January to August, often times on back to back weekends.


I think you are in error there. I believe most amateurs are well aware that it is a business and are even more aware that it is in fact a very poor ROI for all but the very top shooters. That one in ten thousand chance does not strictly apply to seniors but also to the gifted amateur thinking of transitioning to pro. There are more than a few not looking at a pro career for the "donor" resaon you state. Once again the big picture here is not an age limit, it is the overall financial health of the sport in the pro class. It is not a _*viable*_ business proposition for most. The geriatrics are not alone in that respect.

If changing the age was some panacea that would magically bring an influx of money into the sport I could see the logic. As it is I sincerely believe that is a fallacious belief, which ultimately will make no difference whatsoever to the participation numbers.


----------



## PUG

*Oh Really???*



Daniel Boone said:


> We are trying to help build this class. Apparently your not the age of Seniors.
> *Would like to hear your opionion when your a Senior*.
> DB


Oh really??....Is my age a limiting factor in this discussion?? While you make think of me as a kid, Ive been doing this thing called "archery" for 20 years now....and have been involved on EVERY level.... from the consumer, to the shop worker, the laborer, and now as the manufacturer....

Now had this thread been posted in the "senior pro forum" i may have stepped out of line by posting, but last i looked it read different....

Why do you want the class to grow?? Higher payouts?? If money is the issue, having the orgs standardize the age is fine, and preferable even...no argurments there...but it wont grow the class....not by a dramatic amount anyway...and without the numbers, the payouts wont be there....


----------



## JAVI

Hutnicks said:


> I think you are in error there. I believe most amateurs are well aware that it is a business and are even more aware that it is in fact a very poor ROI for all but the very top shooters. That one in ten thousand chance does not strictly apply to seniors but also to the gifted amateur thinking of transitioning to pro. There are more than a few not looking at a pro career for the "donor" resaon you state. Once again the big picture here is not an age limit, it is the overall financial health of the sport in the pro class. It is not a _*viable*_ business proposition for most. The geriatrics are not alone in that respect.
> 
> If changing the age was some panacea that would magically bring an influx of money into the sport I could see the logic. As it is I sincerely believe that is a fallacious belief, which ultimately will make no difference whatsoever to the participation numbers.


It is about three indoor tournaments and one outdoor tournament each year in which several senior pros are not allowed to shoot with their peers from every other professional venue.


----------



## Hutnicks

JAVI said:


> It is about three indoor tournaments and one outdoor tournament each year in which several senior pros are not allowed to shoot with their peers from every other professional venue.


 Okay now we're getting somewhere. It's about a standard across 4 events period. Not some magic thats going to make everyone over 50 jump up and turn pro and save all of archery by swelling the ranks overnight (telling ya I'll be there soon enough, and without payouts and yearly earnings being PUBLICLY posted, personal interest in a pro career here is up there with experimental surgery)

BUT, I still think _*financially*_ it's loaded uzi pointed at the foot. Money for the over 49 gang is going to come out of the same (and only) revenue pool in existence today.

Standardize and go for it! Then you all can dread the day Cousins hit's 50


----------



## JAVI

Hutnicks said:


> Okay now we're getting somewhere. It's about a standard across 4 events period. Not some magic thats going to make everyone over 50 jump up and turn pro and save all of archery by swelling the ranks overnight (telling ya I'll be there soon enough, and without payouts and yearly earnings being PUBLICLY posted, personal interest in a pro career here is up there with experimental surgery)
> 
> BUT, I still think _*financially*_ it's loaded uzi pointed at the foot. Money for the over 49 gang is going to come out of the same (and only) revenue pool in existence today.
> 
> Standardize and go for it! Then you all can dread the day Cousins hit's 50


No one ever though that a few dozen old dudes were gonna swell the purses to astronomical numbers, but yes there would be a slight increase in purses simply from the increased entry fees.. However, that isn’t the real consideration, guys like Dan want to support the class and yet aren’t allowed to under the current rule. Bringing parity to the senior pro division isn’t the salvation of professional archery, but it would allow several who do not now participate to have the option. 
As for Dave reaching fifty, it won’t be my problem… I’ll turn 60 next year.


----------



## Daniel Boone

*You dont have a qlue at your age what Senior Pro class is about.*



PUG said:


> Oh really??....Is my age a limiting factor in this discussion?? While you make think of me as a kid, Ive been doing this thing called "archery" for 20 years now....and have been involved on EVERY level.... from the consumer, to the shop worker, the laborer, and now as the manufacturer....
> 
> Now had this thread been posted in the "senior pro forum" i may have stepped out of line by posting, but last i looked it read different....
> 
> Why do you want the class to grow?? Higher payouts?? If money is the issue, having the orgs standardize the age is fine, and preferable even...no argurments there...but it wont grow the class....not by a dramatic amount anyway...and without the numbers, the payouts wont be there....


Regardless of what age you are That you will learn as your older. Lets leave it alone but lets penalize the guys that shoot in ASA:wink: Thats fair! Ill say its not right to penalize me for shooting ASA 3D. NFAA wants to be different but call ASA senior pros Open class shooters that makes alot of sense. Pug one day you will turn around and be 50. You understand alot more then than you do now regardless of your years. I have disscussed this with several longtime members of NFAA and most agree it should be changed to get on the same standard with other assc. But change is something that doesnt happen in NFAA. Pug I feel any class is better with more archers. 40 archers is better than 22. Im not that good but Im willing to give it a try for 50 and older. Ill compete in the amatuer classes but Im not shooting Open class, leave that for you young guns PUG> Untell then Ill shoot ASA Senior pro and not shoot NFAA. Are state NFAA is struggling. Best make some changes. I will be shooting pro this weekend at the State 3d unmarked championship. 

DB


----------



## PUG

*Well....*



Daniel Boone said:


> Regardless of what age you are That you will learn as your older. Lets leave it alone but lets penalize the guys that shoot in ASA:wink: Thats fair! Ill say its not right to penalize me for shooting ASA 3D. NFAA wants to be different but call ASA senior pros Open class shooters that makes alot of sense. Pug one day you will turn around and be 50. You understand alot more then than you do now regardless of your years. I have disscussed this with several longtime members of NFAA and most agree it should be changed to get on the same standard with other assc. But change is something that doesnt happen in NFAA. Pug I feel any class is better with more archers. 40 archers is better than 22. Im not that good but Im willing to give it a try for 50 and older. Ill compete in the amatuer classes but Im not shooting Open class, leave that for you young guns PUG> Untell then Ill shoot ASA Senior pro and not shoot NFAA. Are state NFAA is struggling. Best make some changes. I will be shooting pro this weekend at the State 3d unmarked championship.
> 
> DB



So you think i dont have a clue?  Actually, its my JOB to understand Professional Archery...Honestly Dan....Ive been involved in PROfessional Archery since the 90's...Im glad your first few months as a pro has taught you more than my two decades of involvement...



Your State NFAA isnt struggling because of a lack of senior pros...More than likely its struggling from lack of overall participation...and perhaps the NFAA could make changes to bring the OVERALL participation, at a state level back to an appropriate amount....

And I agree, classes are better off with more archers, especially if there is a payout involved, but the problem with that statement is that you dont pull seniors from an untouched pool.....they come from the open classes...so if the numbers are down in that class, is it really beneficial to anybody other than the senior pros??

The FOCUS should be bringing new archers into the orgs...and watch the sport grow....


----------



## Daniel Boone

*Pug*



PUG said:


> So you think i dont have a clue?  Actually, its my JOB to understand Professional Archery...Honestly Dan....Ive been involved in PROfessional Archery since the 90's...Im glad your first few months as a pro has taught you more than my two decades of involvement...
> 
> 
> 
> Your State NFAA isnt struggling because of a lack of senior pros...More than likely its struggling from lack of overall participation...and perhaps the NFAA could make changes to bring the OVERALL participation, at a state level back to an appropriate amount....
> 
> And I agree, classes are better off with more archers, especially if there is a payout involved, but the problem with that statement is that you dont pull seniors from an untouched pool.....they come from the open classes...so if the numbers are down in that class, is it really beneficial to anybody other than the senior pros??
> 
> The FOCUS should be bringing new archers into the orgs...and watch the sport grow....


 I never said you dont know a thing. I said you dont know what it feels like to be 50yrs old senior. Your telling me your history and how many years you have been in archery. Well your darn sure smarter now than when you were 15. Your going to be smarter at age 50. Thats my point.  You dont know what it feels like to be 50year old. If that comment offends you, so be it. Its a fact! 

Now you mentioned a few things.
Oklahoma now has four senior pros in ASA right now because I talked two others of these gentlemen into going with me.  Thats from one to four. Its a start. There both members here at archerytalk as well.

I happen to have started the OSAA (NFAA Website here in Oklahoma) http://oklahomaarchery.org/. I just got another club to join the OSAA this month. Coyote Bluff archery club. I shoot field, indoor and 3d. Im working to bring new members all the time.

If you dont think I support archery and getting archers to join the sport you obviously dont see me posting 50 to 140 pictures of archers at ever shoot. Come home tired from driving 5 1/2hrs and post pictures for over an hour minimun. Members and archers here see what archery is all about in those pictures and are encourage to try it.

Then again there not many here that support the pros as much as I do openly. But then again I support archers period. Two months in the pros. Pug I been envolved in archery for a longtime. Go ask anyone in my home state who supports Oklahoma archery. I do more than my share for this sport. Oklahoma Archery is growing because we have a movement of people working. ASA is growing. 

Never once have I said lets move the class to 50 for the payouts. Its not about the money for me. I dont know or think Im going to win big money in senior pro class. You just dont get it. You darn sure dont understand me. "You say Honestly Dan" I say it again I never said you dont know anything about archery. I said you dont know what it feel like to shoot at 50. NFAA is asking guys at age 50 to compete on the same level with a 25 yr old open pro just because they shoot ASA Senior pro. Thats not right and when you get age 50 you will understand that more. Thats what Im saying.

Pug my shooting pro is about compeating with the best. Nothing more or nothing less. I dont sit in my state and shoot on that level. I dont sandbag and never will. Im paying the entry fees. Pro doesnt make you smarter and more intelligent or any other archer for that matter. Fact that you are pro or been envolved doesnt make you anything other than a archer that competes on the top level of archery.
DB


----------



## PUG

*Actually...*



daniel boone said:


> *i never said you dont know a thing*. I said you dont know what it feels like to be 50yrs old senior. Your telling me your history and how many years you have been in archery. Well your darn sure smarter now than when you were 15. Your going to be smarter at age 50. Thats my point.  You dont know what it feels like to be 50year old. *if that comment offends you, so be it. Its a fact!*
> 
> *Actually you said i dont have a clue...title of your post #145...and yes comments like that tend to offend those who receive them...*
> 
> now you mentioned a few things.
> Oklahoma now has four senior pros in asa right now because i talked two others of these gentlemen into going with me.  Thats from one to four. Its a start. There both members here at archerytalk as well.
> 
> I happen to have started the osaa (nfaa website here in oklahoma) http://oklahomaarchery.org/. I just got another club to join the osaa this month. Coyote bluff archery club. I shoot field, indoor and 3d. Im working to bring new members all the time.
> 
> *if you dont think i support archery *and getting archers to join the sport you obviously dont see me posting 50 to 140 pictures of archers at ever shoot. Come home tired from driving 5 1/2hrs and post pictures for over an hour minimun. Members and archers here see what archery is all about in those pictures and are encourage to try it.
> 
> *Not sure where i questioned your level of involvement or commtiment??*
> 
> then again there not many here that support the pros as much as i do openly. But then again i support archers period. Two months in the pros. Pug i been envolved in archery for a longtime. * go ask anyone in my home **state who supports oklahoma archery.* *i do more than my **share for this sport*. Oklahoma archery is growing because we have a movement of people working. Asa is growing.
> 
> *Again, i dont see where your level of commitment was questioned...im glad the asa is growing in your state...*
> 
> *never once have i said lets move the class to 50 for the payouts. Its not **about the money for me.* i dont know or think im going to win big money in senior pro class. You just dont get it. You darn sure dont understand me. "you say honestly dan" i say it again i never said you dont know anything about archery. I said you dont know what it feel like to shoot at 50. Nfaa is asking guys at age 50 to compete on the same level with a 25 yr old open pro just because they shoot asa senior pro. Thats not right and when you get age 50 you will understand that more. Thats what im saying.
> 
> *Well then, im proud of you and your fellow oklahoma senior pros, because you are probably the only senior pros that shoot as a pro strictly for the fun of it...i know a number of them that are rewarded quite well for doing it, even some of mine...*
> 
> pug my shooting pro is about compeating with the best (in your age bracket) . Nothing more or nothing less. I dont sit in my state and shoot on that level. I dont sandbag and never will. Im paying the entry fees. Pro doesnt make you smarter and more intelligent or any other archer for that matter. *fact that you are pro or been envolved doesnt make you anything other than a archer that competes on the top level of archery.*db
> 
> *But somehow your involvement makes you more than the average archer?...and my opinions have less merit??[/*quote]
> 
> I dont have a dog in this race, and it doesnt sound like the seniors pros would want my dog in their anyway...I guess Im just too young to understand..
> 
> Dan, have fun in the senior pro class, and saving it from itself....


----------



## Grey Eagle

*Lol.......*

Hey PUGSLY, looks like you've been carded from this discussion 

Dan, go back and read your replys on this thread, if it's not evident to you, it is to many others that you have been more than a little patronizing ....... :wink:

And if I follow your logic  you're going to be a lot more edumakated when you hit 90 as opposed to your whipper snapper age of 50 now :noidea: That true :tongue:

PUG has likely forgotten more about archery than you presently know, even at his tender age. As he mentioned, it's a job requirement of his to be on top of the game......... he's not just playing in it, like you and I.

LOL.............. thanks for the good chuckle though, I really needed it today


----------



## JAVI

Young whippersnappers...:wink:


----------



## Daniel Boone

*Dennis*



Grey Eagle said:


> Hey PUGSLY, looks like you've been carded from this discussion
> 
> Dan, go back and read your replys on this thread, if it's not evident to you, it is to many others that you have been more than a little patronizing ....... :wink:
> 
> And if I follow your logic  you're going to be a lot more edumakated when you hit 90 as opposed to your whipper snapper age of 50 now :noidea: That true :tongue:
> 
> PUG has likely forgotten more about archery than you presently know, even at his tender age. As he mentioned, it's a job requirement of his to be on top of the game......... he's not just playing in it, like you and I.
> 
> LOL.............. thanks for the good chuckle though, I really needed it today



I have talked to more senior pros than most about this. My thread has gone from talking about senior pro to many other things. I have some mighty fine exsperianced archers in my part to ask about archeryin NFAA. Guys with more exsperiance than most. Pug knows my sources and what they have accomplished. My comment to Pug was more about a 50yr old compeating with a 25yr old. Apparently it seemed to mean alot more to you and him. Honestly sorrow I ask and tried to make a logical thread. Seems many get it and some dont. Maybe you post all the good threads to be questioned. I have tried to support a assc that says I cant shoot unless I shoot wgainst the open pros. Pug knows darn well there not one thing fair about me shooting against the top guns.
DB
DB


----------



## Hutnicks

JAVI said:


> Young whippersnappers...:wink:


Damn Kids!


The again Sir Jackie Stewart just made a recommendation for Formula 1 coaching in which he named several from completely outside motorsports.

A sound business knowledge and understanding of sport marketing dynamics is in no way dependant on shooter ability or even participation for that matter.

Why, I'll bet there are even a few PRO's out there who are complete financial disasters:wink:


----------



## Daniel Boone

*No promblem*



PUG said:


> daniel boone said:
> 
> 
> 
> *i never said you dont know a thing*. I said you dont know what it feels like to be 50yrs old senior. Your telling me your history and how many years you have been in archery. Well your darn sure smarter now than when you were 15. Your going to be smarter at age 50. Thats my point.  You dont know what it feels like to be 50year old. *if that comment offends you, so be it. Its a fact!*
> 
> *Actually you said i dont have a clue...title of your post #145...and yes comments like that tend to offend those who receive them...*
> 
> now you mentioned a few things.
> Oklahoma now has four senior pros in asa right now because i talked two others of these gentlemen into going with me.  Thats from one to four. Its a start. There both members here at archerytalk as well.
> 
> I happen to have started the osaa (nfaa website here in oklahoma) http://oklahomaarchery.org/. I just got another club to join the osaa this month. Coyote bluff archery club. I shoot field, indoor and 3d. Im working to bring new members all the time.
> 
> *if you dont think i support archery *and getting archers to join the sport you obviously dont see me posting 50 to 140 pictures of archers at ever shoot. Come home tired from driving 5 1/2hrs and post pictures for over an hour minimun. Members and archers here see what archery is all about in those pictures and are encourage to try it.
> 
> *Not sure where i questioned your level of involvement or commtiment??*
> 
> then again there not many here that support the pros as much as i do openly. But then again i support archers period. Two months in the pros. Pug i been envolved in archery for a longtime. * go ask anyone in my home **state who supports oklahoma archery.* *i do more than my **share for this sport*. Oklahoma archery is growing because we have a movement of people working. Asa is growing.
> 
> *Again, i dont see where your level of commitment was questioned...im glad the asa is growing in your state...*
> 
> *never once have i said lets move the class to 50 for the payouts. Its not **about the money for me.* i dont know or think im going to win big money in senior pro class. You just dont get it. You darn sure dont understand me. "you say honestly dan" i say it again i never said you dont know anything about archery. I said you dont know what it feel like to shoot at 50. Nfaa is asking guys at age 50 to compete on the same level with a 25 yr old open pro just because they shoot asa senior pro. Thats not right and when you get age 50 you will understand that more. Thats what im saying.
> 
> *Well then, im proud of you and your fellow oklahoma senior pros, because you are probably the only senior pros that shoot as a pro strictly for the fun of it...i know a number of them that are rewarded quite well for doing it, even some of mine...*
> 
> pug my shooting pro is about compeating with the best (in your age bracket) . Nothing more or nothing less. I dont sit in my state and shoot on that level. I dont sandbag and never will. Im paying the entry fees. Pro doesnt make you smarter and more intelligent or any other archer for that matter. *fact that you are pro or been envolved doesnt make you anything other than a archer that competes on the top level of archery.*db
> 
> *But somehow your involvement makes you more than the average archer?...and my opinions have less merit??[/*quote]
> 
> I dont have a dog in this race, and it doesnt sound like the seniors pros would want my dog in their anyway...I guess Im just too young to understand..
> 
> Dan, have fun in the senior pro class, and saving it from itself....
> 
> 
> 
> This comment
> Actually you said i dont have a clue...title of your post #145...and yes comments like that tend to offend those who receive them...
> 
> Was talking about you knowing what it like to shoot at 50. If you thought it meant anything else I apoligize. Never have a ever qestion your knowledge of archery. Senior pro ASA is all I can shoot or open pro NFAA. Either you get the question or you dont. Whats fair about that?
> DB
Click to expand...


----------



## pintojk

JAVI said:


> The problem here is the fact that the professional archer is dependent on amateurs to decide how and when they can compete.. Like any other professional sport, we need an association whose sole purpose is to grow the sport of professional archery and not be the ugly stepchild of an amateur club whose purpose is diametrically opposed to the growth of professional archery.


:clap: :thumb:


----------



## fastarrows

*I'm 55*

+ i love beating the young guys,(am i the best no) but i always been a good shot (love me or hate me if you mess up i will take you out)+ spend your money.+ i love winning icecream from the ladies.
but im the first to tell you the ladies have put a whoop arse on me a time or two.

Diane - Delete this thing its getting out of hand


----------



## sheephunter

I turn 50 next year and will get back in the 3D game with both ASA & IBO in the Senior Pro Class. I would like it if NFAA would move the Senior Pro class to 50, but I don't think it would be fair to the rest of the people who had to wait until 55. If there is enough interest in the NFAA Senior Pro class to have a vote to see if the group would want to move the age to 50, cool. I will still shoot Vegas and Indoor Nationals as an Open Pro since I shoot plenty of clean rounds in practice and a few in tournaments. I believe I have an honest chance of winning. However, if I were to vote to move the minimum age for ASA/IBO to 55 from 50, I would vote no. I realized I couldn't compete in the Pro 3D several years ago and win enough money to pay the bills. I don't have the time to commit to yardage and shooting time with my current situation. Not that the Senior Pro Class will be much/any easier to win. It's difficult in a lot of classes to finish in the top. My opinion is that people in the 50ish year range should have their own Pro class . 

I noticed a physical change around 47 with eyesight which doesn't help with archery. For me 49 isn't 45. I'm guessing 55 won't feel like 49. Apparently, there is enough intellegent people to figure out that there should be a separating class between Pros and Senior Pros. Now that I'm in the ballpark of 50, that age seems reasonable to me.


----------



## carlosii

The Swami said:


> I am not your normal 44 year old, nor will I be normal at 50.


"Abby...Abby Normal..."
(Young Frankenstein)

(Just funnin with ya..):wink:

Ya'll wait'll yer 68...you might think you can compete with the 20 somethings...or even 50 somethings...but its hard, man, its hard...But at Nelsonville them 50 year olds were stoppin' going up the hills and I wasn't...hmmm....bring it on, baby, bring in on...


----------

