# NFAA Outdoor Midwestern Sectional Dishonesty



## huntelk

*Update*

I went to the Yankton this weekend to the 3d with ONLY because I had already paid my entry. I decided on the way up to try and avoid confrontation until I have had time to simmer a little (hands still shaking this morning I'm still so ). 

We are all leaving Dave Cousin's seminar (which was awesome by the way!)at Dakota Archery when I was approached about whether I am going to get my bid in for next years sectional.......still trying to just focus on taking deep breaths every time I see a couple of the persons involved......

I responded about my problem with our Sectional Director's lack of intestinal fortitude and his "boy" from Minnesota (not what I really want to call the whining snivelling Minnesota State Director, but oh well) and my general concern of wheter I was going to keep trying to do any more work to promote the NFAA.

I was then told not to expect any action because the Minn. State director was taking the Sectional Director on a hunt this fall and he wouldn't want to ruin thatukey:

I headed over to corner both the Nat'l Pres. and the Sectional Director several times this weekend when I thought I was calm enough to do so, but each time realized I was gritting my teeth and clenching my fists. I guess I need to learn how to not take things personal:embara:-that, and I really don't want to be "that guy" (evidently too much Irish blood pumping in my veins:wink


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## target1

I completetly understand your feelings. They have personally cost me ALOT of money and fustration, due to the "politics". When I say alot I meat alot, many thousands$$$$$. However, I realized that the NFAA is what it is, and I cannot do much about it. So I had to let it go. Get back to what you love, just shooting. Realize that politics are usually no more than men struggling to get power and return to what it really is all about. Archery!!!!


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## benglish

I have had some limited experience with the gentleman that you are speaking of, but I've heard many things throught the grapevine about him. If it's the same individual he's been justifiably protested before for being over the NFAA speed limit, and he's protested others for such silly things as having arrows with different colored nocks in their quiver ( and lost ). All of what I've seen and heard makes me think that we are dealing with a guy that values winning over ethics and sportsmanship. If all that you say is true, you should be outraged, because of the conflict of interest, he should have left the call to a third party and accepted the results like a representative of the NFAA would be expected to. Just my two cents.


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## huntelk

*It's not his first rodeo...*

His (Minn. Dir.) lack of sportsmanship was brought up in conversation of the "BHFS" guys before. I had pretty much dismissed it until experiencing it myself. It is pretty much understood around the Midwest that he has a total lack of integrity and will do anything he can to win. In the past I have gotten upset with Field 14 and Brtsite for hammering on the BHFS class-but now that I am seeing some of the dragons rearing thier ugly heads I am starting to understand thier challenges. It is just too bad our sectional director is too "wishy-washy" to stand behind his original statement of the rules.

Another NFAA representative e-mailed me that had talked to the Sect. Rep in Yankton. his response was was "Talked to *** (Midwest sec. director) and put the question to him about the tie breaker and he told me it was broken by the archer that had the highest 14 half score on the Field round

So that was the third different way we (who shot in KC) were told ties were broken after the Minn. Director started changing the rules. 

While shooting at the Nat'l 3-d in Yankton one of the guys in my group from Minn. who shot the sectional in Minn. told be that they were told in thier rules meeting that ties were broken by the best score on the 80 yard walk-up.

I guess they (he-Minn. Director) had to go through several gyrations to find the tie-breaker that would benefit him (and a couple of his buddies) best.

I see he was leading the BHFS class on Monday of the Outdoor Nationals-wonder if his pencil is as sharp as his rule-making:zip:?


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## centerx

Once again the leaders really make this more difficult then it needs to be. However here is how it should be IMO 

The multiple host locations for sectionals is a great idea. However they should be spaced 2 weeks apart. This way you can choose to shoot one or both. If you shoot both the best score is the one that counts. This way everybody has equal opportunity to shoot one or both courses. Nobody can cry fowl if they have the same opportunities as everybody else. With both beign on the same weekend you have to commit to one. Environmental factors can be quite different of course. However with a 2 week spread you have a choice and that is a choice you have to live with. Not to mention many may shoot both and increase attendance?? Heck I don't know if I would be apposed to having a host location with every state in the region… 8 states schedule 2 states a week for one month for example?? At the end of the month post the scores…. Lot's of field shooting in my section for a month and I like that :tongue: 

There is a reason that the X's are printed on targets and that is for tie breakers. This should be the first consideration 

After that I never did like the "1st dropped X" or best single target score approach for a whole bunch of reasons as I feel it cheapens individual efforts. Who's to say your first dropped X was on an 80 yarder while your competition first 4 targets were 60 yards and under?? This would be true of multiple or single locations. Nothing wrong with having ties and "Co-sectional" 3rd place winners. 

The point is to get people involved and not find creative ways to get them to lose. If you shoot the score you get the title and if every once in a while that tittles' is split with another excellent archer then that is the way it is. Of course a different approach can be had with everybody under one roof and a "shoot down" is appropriate

This representative fore the NFAA should be relinquishing his award. No doubt about the confusion as one of the higher up representatives it is HIS JOB to do what ever it takes to make a fair and level playing field . He should learn form the confusion and do his job next year to make sure it does not happen again. When did 3rd place get so important that we have to screw all the participants to get it ………. Ghessh if it was 1st I guess I could understand it a little but 3rd ??


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## huntelk

*Good Ideas*

I understand there were 3 other ties that "swung the other way" after the snafu including the first place in AMFS.

I would like to offer the following opportunity to those in charge:

First of all, change the order of the names/places back to what the were with the original rule. Then list the people that tied as "dual/shared" championships. Then both people get trophies-I just want my name back on the web page in the place I earned and don't need another dust collector. I will personally write the check for the three added trophies for the other guys that lost out on this debacle.

Do the right thing guys, this is your opportunity to wipe the egg off the face of the Midwestern Section.

Tell me where to send the check for the additional 3 trophies for the other guys.


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## frank_jones

*sportsmen like?*

huntelk, I feel for you! I too have heard of an event that involved this man. if the money for the trophys is '' allowed'' and justice is done, send me an email and I would like to send a monitary donation! maybe the director needs to be replaced.


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## Two Bears

huntelk said:


> I went to the Yankton this weekend to the 3d with ONLY because I had already paid my entry. I decided on the way up to try and avoid confrontation until I have had time to simmer a little (hands still shaking this morning I'm still so ).
> 
> We are all leaving Dave Cousin's seminar (which was awesome by the way!)at Dakota Archery when I was approached about whether I am going to get my bid in for next years sectional.......still trying to just focus on taking deep breaths every time I see a couple of the persons involved......
> 
> I responded about my problem with our Sectional Director's lack of intestinal fortitude and his "boy" from Minnesota (not what I really want to call the whining snivelling Minnesota State Director, but oh well) and my general concern of wheter I was going to keep trying to do any more work to promote the NFAA.
> 
> I was then told not to expect any action because the Minn. State director was taking the Sectional Director on a hunt this fall and he wouldn't want to ruin thatukey:
> 
> I headed over to corner both the Nat'l Pres. and the Sectional Director several times this weekend when I thought I was calm enough to do so, but each time realized I was gritting my teeth and clenching my fists. I guess I need to learn how to not take things personal:embara:-that, and I really don't want to be "that guy" (evidently too much Irish blood pumping in my veins:wink




Well maybe you should trump him by offering to take the sec. director on an elk hunt which would of course be a much better hunt for him to go on.....


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## Brown Hornet

Well it looks like the person that I said would be on top in his class is taking care of business:wink:


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## Bob_Looney

Who's gonna mess with a Hornet?


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## Brown Hornet

You would


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## huntelk

Brown Hornet said:


> Well it looks like the person that I said would be on top in his class is taking care of business:wink:


You know I've been watching:wink:. I've never met your pick that I know of, but sure am glad he is putting the hammer down!


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## huntelk

Two Bears said:


> Well maybe you should trump him by offering to take the sec. director on an elk hunt which would of course be a much better hunt for him to go on.....




Uhh, I will be as kind as possible here and just say that I don't hunt elk from the truck:zip:


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## SuperX

Brown Hornet said:


> Well it looks like the person that I said would be on top in his class is taking care of business:wink:


ah, but things do change and today Matt Schmitz took the lead over Tim with a 545 field round. Tim would have to shoot a very very good score tomorrow to beat what Matt already has in the bank (548) for the hunter.

Should be an exciting day - wish I could watch!


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## naklein

*NFAA By Laws*

From the latest edition from the NFAA By-Laws Article IV, Section I, Paragraph 9

ALL shoot offs for ties will take place at the practice range, on the longest yardage commensurate with age. Field or Hunter faces may be used at the discretion of the tournament director. Score, Spots & X's will be used. After one round, if still tied, repeat the end.

This is all I could find in the rulebook about ties at outdoor tournaments. So, since a shoot off wasn't possible, it appears that a tie should have been declared.

If enough members bring this up, maybe the NFAA will update the rule to deal with split tournaments.


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## field14

naklein said:


> From the latest edition from the NFAA By-Laws Article IV, Section I, Paragraph 9
> 
> ALL shoot offs for ties will take place at the practice range, on the longest yardage commensurate with age. Field or Hunter faces may be used at the discretion of the tournament director. Score, Spots & X's will be used. After one round, if still tied, repeat the end.
> 
> This is all I could find in the rulebook about ties at outdoor tournaments. So, since a shoot off wasn't possible, it appears that a tie should have been declared.
> 
> If enough members bring this up, maybe the NFAA will update the rule to deal with split tournaments.



Nope...it isn't enough that "enough members" bring up for a change....won't work.

The "member" or a group of members MUST submit an AGENDA ITEM, in the correct format and form to their state NFAA Director prior to Sept. 30. Then, you wait until the National meeting at Vegas in February for it to be "discussed" etc.

With this item, I would highly suspect that since a couple of directors are BHFS'ers...and the rule change might not benefit them...and reflect on yet another "problem" that occurred where RULES WERE CHANGED AT CONVENIENCE...and WITHOUT "communications" among the various shooting sites....things will get sticky..

Out of jurisdiction; Unnecessary, and on and on and on.. It MIGHT pass too, but don't hold your breath. Changing MOST of the "rules" is pretty darned tough to come by.

This doesn't just affect BHFS rules....so it might not get "enough time"...since most of the meetings of the recent past involved BHFS rules changes or equipment modifications.....

There definitely NEEDS to be a "standard tie-breaker set of rules" for the multiple site tournaments, however, since so many Sections are now going to multiple sites for their championship tournaments. Great Lakes Section is doing this too....but I haven't a clue how "they" are handling tie-breakers.

One LAST THOUGHT that I do have.....FILE A WRITTEN PROTEST, and send the $25 check in! That "might" at least FORCE the RIC to rule on it and either get it corrected or something...but since the offender is a Director....who knows how it will come down???

field14:tongue::darkbeer:


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## centerx

Not that it is pertinent to the Bull that has transpired. As I mentioned I don’t know if a tiebreaker for multiple locations needs to have a ruling or not. Count the X’s as they are supposed to and then if the rare tie takes place then it’s a tie. Already to many odd and obscure rules around Field archery. However if most feel like was must root out all ties here are some suggestions

1)Count x’s first 

2)Count the “dots” on the animal round. next. Not points but actuall dot’s hit , treat them like an X for tie breaker purposes

3)If A tie still exist then the scores from a pre detemined series of targets will be counted. Maybe a 40and 65 from the Field round and the 28 fan and 70 walk up from the hunter round. Scores first and if still tied X’s on those targets only.

4) If still tied screw it you shot the same score and you have the exact same skill sets it's truly a tie , have a beer and enjoy :wink:yourslf 

No first X dropped, No Who was the king of the longest target. Simply a good sampeling of skills across the targets presented.


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## 60Xbulldog60X

huntelk said:


> I understand there were 3 other ties that "swung the other way" after the snafu including the first place in AMFS.
> 
> I would like to offer the following opportunity to those in charge:
> 
> First of all, change the order of the names/places back to what the were with the original rule. Then list the people that tied as "dual/shared" championships. Then both people get trophies-I just want my name back on the web page in the place I earned and don't need another dust collector. I will personally write the check for the three added trophies for the other guys that lost out on this debacle.
> 
> Do the right thing guys, this is your opportunity to wipe the egg off the face of the Midwestern Section.
> 
> Tell me where to send the check for the additional 3 trophies for the other guys.



Just FYI, you would not believe what this same Director has been pulling this week at the Outdoor Nationals. It's hard to believe that anyone would go to these measures to help friends and ones own personal gain. From what I have been witnessing, I have never seen such unethical behavior on an archery range or any other type of course.

I'm sure his sponsors would not like this kind of conduct.

This is very SAD!!!


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## field14

60Xbulldog60X said:


> Just FYI, you would not believe what this same Director has been pulling this week at the Outdoor Nationals. It's hard to believe that anyone would go to these measures to help friends and ones own personal gain. From what I have been witnessing, I have never seen such unethical behavior on an archery range or any other type of course.
> 
> I'm sure his sponsors would not like this kind of conduct.
> 
> This is very SAD!!!


IF what you all are saying is FACT, then it is a simple process to PROTEST, with PROOF....and see that action is taken...including the "bit" about a "Director" and his conduct? There IS a code of ethics, you know...and such a thing as a "recall" on an Officer, too.....

But YOU that have the "PROOF" (and it better be iron-clad) have to take the action and not just talk about it...but walk the walk.....

Without PROOF and positive action...it is just hear-say and sour grapes being vented.

field14


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## Two Bears

huntelk said:


> Uhh, I will be as kind as possible here and just say that I don't hunt elk from the truck:zip:



Where did the "hunt from a truck" come from? I don't get it....


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## Brown Hornet

SuperX said:


> ah, but things do change and today Matt Schmitz took the lead over Tim with a 545 field round. Tim would have to shoot a very very good score tomorrow to beat what Matt already has in the bank (548) for the hunter.
> 
> Should be an exciting day - wish I could watch!


I saw that:doh: Tim has been having a rough week....he needs pull it together and shoot the way he can....he has a 555+ hunter in him.


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## huntelk

Two Bears said:


> Where did the "hunt from a truck" come from? I don't get it....


That was the only sentence I did submit from the long nasty post I "almost" submitted. But since you asked, it was a jab at the guy in question never getting off his 4-wheeler or far from his truck on a flat field shoot-let alone at 9500 feet above sea level to hunt in the mountains. When someone pushes my buttons like the above mentioned guys, I tend to go straight for the jugular and take no prisoners-but I am trying hard not to be that guy!


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## huntelk

*changing/adding rules*

I don't think it is nessesary to go through all the trouble adding/changing rules. There are pages and pages of rules. We as "MEN" just need to have a little honor and integrity. As an officer or leader in any organization your "WORD" needs to be worth something.

There definitely are some ways of breaking ties that are more fair than others but what is most important to me is sticking with the rule (whatever it is) after you make it. I don't care really if you break the tie by who which archer has the most hair (I would usually loose:wink if you state the rule up front and stick with it.


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## huntelk

field14 said:


> IF what you all are saying is FACT, then it is a simple process to PROTEST, with PROOF....and see that action is taken...including the "bit" about a "Director" and his conduct? There IS a code of ethics, you know...and such a thing as a "recall" on an Officer, too.....
> 
> But YOU that have the "PROOF" (and it better be iron-clad) have to take the action and not just talk about it...but walk the walk.....
> 
> Without PROOF and positive action...it is just hear-say and sour grapes being vented.
> 
> field14


We (in Missouri) were told that a protest was only valid for a short time after the shoot. This all came about after the original scores that were posted on the NFAA web page were changed days later (which is enough "proof" in itself IMO). I didn't find out about it until last week when I got on the web.


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## huntelk

*Go Steve Jones GO!*



SuperX said:


> ah, but things do change and today Matt Schmitz took the lead over Tim with a 545 field round. Tim would have to shoot a very very good score tomorrow to beat what Matt already has in the bank (548) for the hunter.
> 
> Should be an exciting day - wish I could watch!


Me too! I'd be cheering for Steve Jones to take over 3rd and push :chicken01: into fourth. Or better yet beat him out with a tie breaker (oh please, oh please:wink.


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## huntelk

*by the way*

It is Steve Wagner that is tied for third, not Steve Jones


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## USNarcher

Matt doesn't need to lay down money to make a point. The boy can flat out shoot. I have heard that there is plenty of controversy in this group. Just like the last Nationals that I shot BHFS with them. It's always the same common denominator.

I heard that it was protested that Matt was using an illegal bow. The limbsaver bow cannot be taken serious on a field course therfore cannot be legal. :tongue:


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## pragmatic_lee

Dang, had to look twice to make sure I was in the Field forum, thought for a minute that I must be in the 3D forum. :wink:


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## huntelk

USNarcher said:


> Matt doesn't need to lay down money to make a point. The boy can flat out shoot. I have heard that there is plenty of controversy in this group. Just like the last Nationals that I shot BHFS with them. It's always the same common denominator.
> 
> I heard that it was protested that Matt was using an illegal bow. The limbsaver bow cannot be taken serious on a field course therfore cannot be legal. :tongue:


It really stinks that the entire BHFS class has to get a black eye because of one or two rotten apples.


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## Brown Hornet

huntelk said:


> It really stinks that the entire BHFS class has to get a black eye because of one or two rotten apples.


It's not just one or two.....99% of the problems regarding classes, equipment and other things along these lines all come from BHFS ranks.


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## WV Has Been

Brown Hornet said:


> It's not just one or two.....99% of the problems regarding classes, equipment and other things along these lines all come from BHFS ranks.


As an ex BHFS shooter I guess this is where you have to ask the golden question. 

*Why does an individual choose to shoot BHFS?*

Some say its because they want to shoot there hunting equipment but in return they shoot a new target bow, new site and $150.00+ doz of arrows to compete.

In most cases, I stress not all cases, the BHFS shooter is looking for a place to cherry pick. When you get a multitude of cherry picking mentality people all together you are bound to have trouble. The cherry pickers continually strive to change rules to make the class easier but fail to understand easier for one is easier for all. 

Then you have your cherry pickers that shoot freestyle but figure there chances are much better in BH equipment class so they take the dive. In return the year round cherry pickers in the class see the hope of a win dwindling so they get extremely furious just causing more controversy.


Its just an on going thing. To many people use BHFS for a flight class that rewards with the term National Champion or they use it to take a stab at what looks like some easy money.


*What is the answer?*


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## USNarcher

*BHFS is the core of archery*

Most archers get into archery because of hunting and 90% of all hunting is done with BHFS equipment. That is why I don't understand why manufacturers don't put more into this division. If Matt Schmidt can nail an 80 yards walk up everytime with a Limbsaver Deadzone bow it should show a thousand hunters that it is deadly :darkbeer:accurate and they should capitalize on that. Who hunts with a pretty bow, 6x scope, lizard tongue rest and 3 foot stabilizer?


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## Brown Hornet

WV Has Been said:


> As an ex BHFS shooter I guess this is where you have to ask the golden question.
> 
> *Why does an individual choose to shoot BHFS?*
> 
> Some say its because they want to shoot there hunting equipment but in return they shoot a new target bow, new site and $150.00+ doz of arrows to compete.
> 
> In most cases, I stress not all cases, the BHFS shooter is looking for a place to cherry pick. When you get a multitude of cherry picking mentality people all together you are bound to have trouble. The cherry pickers continually strive to change rules to make the class easier but fail to understand easier for one is easier for all.
> 
> Then you have your cherry pickers that shoot freestyle but figure there chances are much better in BH equipment class so they take the dive. In return the year round cherry pickers in the class see the hope of a win dwindling so they get extremely furious just causing more controversy.
> 
> 
> Its just an on going thing. To many people use BHFS for a flight class that rewards with the term National Champion or they use it to take a stab at what looks like some easy money.
> 
> 
> *What is the answer?*


Very well put WV.:clap:

You and I both know the answer because we have talked about it before:wink:


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## USNarcher

WV Has Been said:


> As an ex BHFS shooter I guess this is where you have to ask the golden question.
> 
> *Why does an individual choose to shoot BHFS?*
> 
> Some say its because they want to shoot there hunting equipment but in return they shoot a new target bow, new site and $150.00+ doz of arrows to compete.
> 
> In most cases, I stress not all cases, the BHFS shooter is looking for a place to cherry pick. When you get a multitude of cherry picking mentality people all together you are bound to have trouble. The cherry pickers continually strive to change rules to make the class easier but fail to understand easier for one is easier for all.
> 
> Then you have your cherry pickers that shoot freestyle but figure there chances are much better in BH equipment class so they take the dive. In return the year round cherry pickers in the class see the hope of a win dwindling so they get extremely furious just causing more controversy.
> 
> 
> Its just an on going thing. To many people use BHFS for a flight class that rewards with the term National Champion or they use it to take a stab at what looks like some easy money.
> 
> 
> *What is the answer?*


Horse pooey. BHFS is in no way Cherry picking. They are shooting 300 vegas rounds, 300 60x indoor, 1525 Redding, 550's + field. There is no way you can make your statement stick.

Most 5 pin sights are as at home on the range as they are in the field. Same with arrows.


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## Bob_Looney

A knuckle sandwich will fix the problem.


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## USNarcher

Bob_Looney said:


> A knuckle sandwich will fix the problem.


You are so full of political correctness. :wink:


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## centerx

Actually while they are shooting the same quality score as FS shooters they also typically don' t have to worry about 11 ways ties that they have to battle through as well on the national level and on the local level they tend to have -0- competition in most parts of the US if they are that good

I also know BH shooters that will study past scores and practice all year to get to a consistency with those scores. Of they can't get there came the big shoot they don't travel take FS gear to "have fun" 

I have seen way more BH cherry pickers over the years then FS 


The ones causing the trouble most of the time are those with target rigs with fixed pins. The individual who just whips out the hunting rig for a little fun are not the people making the problems. However they sure do suffer from the outcomes frequently


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## WrongdayJ

WV Has Been said:


> . . .*Why does an individual choose to shoot BHFS?*
> 
> Some say its because they want to shoot there hunting equipment but in return they shoot a new target bow, new site and $150.00+ doz of arrows to compete.
> 
> . . .the BHFS shooter is looking for a place to cherry pick. When you get a multitude of cherry picking mentality people all together you are bound to have trouble. . .


I shoot BHFS because I am kinda new to the game, and do not yet have the experience and/or equipment needed to be competitive in full-tilt FS just yet.
I am using this class to get my feet wet and develop my shot. 

I know that you are speaking about a certain type of individual, so I'm not flaming. . .just chiming in from the perspective of someone who shoots BHFS who is not a 'cherry picker'. But I do see people shooting in this class that are clearly FS caliber shooters with short stabs and pin sights. I guess that is their choice, but I often wonder why someone would do this if they are obviously highly skilled and probably should be testing their skills against the FS level talent.

Maybe they are looking to 'skim' some easy money. . .or maybe they are bored and want to try something else.


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## mdbowhunter

Brown Hornet said:


> It's not just one or two.....99% of the problems regarding classes, equipment and other things along these lines all come from BHFS ranks.


Yep, right on the money. :thumbs_up



WV Has Been said:


> As an ex BHFS shooter I guess this is where you have to ask the golden question.
> 
> *Why does an individual choose to shoot BHFS?*
> 
> Some say its because they want to shoot there hunting equipment but in return they shoot a new target bow, new site and $150.00+ doz of arrows to compete.
> 
> In most cases, I stress not all cases, the BHFS shooter is looking for a place to cherry pick. When you get a multitude of cherry picking mentality people all together you are bound to have trouble. The cherry pickers continually strive to change rules to make the class easier but fail to understand easier for one is easier for all.
> 
> Then you have your cherry pickers that shoot freestyle but figure there chances are much better in BH equipment class so they take the dive. In return the year round cherry pickers in the class see the hope of a win dwindling so they get extremely furious just causing more controversy.
> 
> 
> Its just an on going thing. To many people use BHFS for a flight class that rewards with the term National Champion or they use it to take a stab at what looks like some easy money.
> 
> 
> *What is the answer?*


For some of us Has Been, it was the closest match to our present hunting set-up. For me, I started shooting pins from the first time I drew a compound. So, the choice was simple. Yes, I bought the target color bow, the different arrows, etc...but it was a comfort issue more than anything. IMHO *THAT* is why many choose BHFS.


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## Brown Hornet

USNarcher said:


> Horse pooey. BHFS is in no way Cherry picking. They are shooting 300 vegas rounds, 300 60x indoor, 1525 Redding, 550's + field. There is no way you can make your statement stick.
> 
> Most 5 pin sights are as at home on the range as they are in the field. Same with arrows.


Someone needs to take a breath....go get a beer....sit back down and read what Brian said again....read it and take it in this time without putting words in his mouth.

You might get what he is saying the second time:wink:


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## USNarcher

Beer language yeah. :darkbeer::darkbeer::darkbeer: I ain't upset. Anyone that knows anything about tournament archery knows that division has plenty of competition. :wink:


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## pragmatic_lee

My archery "cherry" got "picked" the first day I sat foot on a Field course. :tongue:


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## huntelk

I'm not sure why anyone would pick the 3rd most competetive class to "cherry pick". Male freestyle and Pro male freestyle are the only classes with more competitors.

This thread turning from an issue of two directors mis-using thier authority for personal benefit to a BHFS bash proves what???? A state director that is well-known for underhanded lowlife actions happens to shoot BHFS-so what? He would be the same way if he went to freestyle-wouldn't he? I just don't understand why it is that when an individual acts unfavorably that the class they shoot in gets the blame. When a pro freestyle guy cheated in Vegas he was shooting BHFS-so does that mean BHFS guys are cheaters or does it mean "the man himself" is a cheater???

I for one am intelligent enough to see that there are several other classes with a handful or less competitors where I would have a better chance of getting a silver cup than in BHFS. I don't think there is such a thing as sandbagging when it comes to shooting a field course with pins-indoor maybe, but not field.


The old saying "Don't hate the player, hate the game" Does NOT apply here. Do we all hate football because a "player" beat up his girlfriend or had dog fights.........


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## mdbowhunter

huntelk said:


> I don't think there is such a thing as sandbagging when it comes to shooting a field course with pins-indoor maybe, but not field.


Yes, it can be done and it has happened. Here in MD we divide each style into classes based on average score. BHFS has been one of the *WORST* for sandbaggers. Believe you me, I've witnessed it at a number of State Outdoor Field Championships.

But you are correct, cheating is an issue with the individual, not the style he shoots.


----------



## Spotshooter2

MDbowhunter , then it is your setup that allows the cheating. Forget about the averaging and just shoot mano e mano. Everyone shoots against each other and top score wins it all.


----------



## WV Has Been

USNarcher said:


> Horse pooey. BHFS is in no way Cherry picking. They are shooting 300 vegas rounds, 300 60x indoor, 1525 Redding, 550's + field. There is no way you can make your statement stick.
> 
> Most 5 pin sights are as at home on the range as they are in the field. Same with arrows.


Perhaps your definition of cherry picking and mine are much different.

I thought my wording clearly defined the type of person I was speaking of.

Your statement only further proves my assessment of the violators. 

Do you think the top Pro FS shooters could dominate in the pin class or do you think it truly takes a special person to shoot pins. I personally have shot pins indoor as well as I do my FS setup so it would be hard for me to assess. Perhaps I am the exception.





huntelk said:


> I'm not sure why anyone would pick the 3rd most competetive class to "cherry pick". Male freestyle and Pro male freestyle are the only classes with more competitors.
> 
> This thread turning from an issue of two directors mis-using thier authority for personal benefit to a BHFS bash proves what???? A state director that is well-known for underhanded lowlife actions happens to shoot BHFS-so what? He would be the same way if he went to freestyle-wouldn't he? I just don't understand why it is that when an individual acts unfavorably that the class they shoot in gets the blame. When a pro freestyle guy cheated in Vegas he was shooting BHFS-so does that mean BHFS guys are cheaters or does it mean "the man himself" is a cheater???
> 
> I for one am intelligent enough to see that there are several other classes with a handful or less competitors where I would have a better chance of getting a silver cup than in BHFS. I don't think there is such a thing as sandbagging when it comes to shooting a field course with pins-indoor maybe, but not field.
> 
> 
> The old saying "Don't hate the player, hate the game" Does NOT apply here. Do we all hate football because a "player" beat up his girlfriend or had dog fights.........


 You just mentioned two reason that someone would cherry pick in the pin class. 

1) The Armature Male Freestyle class is more competitive.

2) The Pro Male freestyle class is more competitive. 

Where would it be easier to win a silver bowl if you was a talented shot?


I think the person you speak of is a BHFS shooter because he fits the *classification of a cherry picker*. It is the lowest class that will allow him to shoot a release so he must flex the rules to win. It has nothing to do with the class just the class of person.:wink:


----------



## sharkred7

There may be some "Cherry picking" going on in the class as is evident at Vegas. The class is NOT easy to do that in - No matter who you are! The top FS would still dominate the pin class. The way Jesse shot this weekend I wouldn't want to challenge him if he took his sight off Congrats Jesse!:darkbeer:

I shoot pins because I don't care for the long Stab, haven't found a combo that works for me. A scope is not a benifit to me either (especially indoors) and I enjoy the challenge of pin shooting field. 

Next year I am going to FS outdoors for a bigger challenge. There just arent as many shooters in my class outdoors around here. Also I won my section and state. I am not in it to see how many awards I can achieve, I want to challenge myself. I enjoy shooting with great people and grreat archers, if I find myself in a situation like the one that started this thread and I am no longer having fun, I'll move up - no matter what equipment I choose to shoot:wink:

I won't be a "cherry picker":wink: I'll move to the next class when my goals are reached 

John


----------



## WV Has Been

sharkred7 said:


> There may be some "Cherry picking" going on in the class as is evident at Vegas. The class is NOT easy to do that in - No matter who you are! The top FS would still dominate the pin class. The way Jesse shot this weekend I wouldn't want to challenge him if he took his sight off Congrats Jesse!:darkbeer:
> 
> I shoot pins because I don't care for the long Stab, haven't found a combo that works for me. A scope is not a benifit to me either (especially indoors) and I enjoy the challenge of pin shooting field.
> 
> Next year I am going to FS outdoors for a bigger challenge. There just arent as many shooters in my class outdoors around here. Also I won my section and state. I am not in it to see how many awards I can achieve, I want to challenge myself. I enjoy shooting with great people and grreat archers, if I find myself in a situation like the one that started this thread and I am no longer having fun, I'll move up - no matter what equipment I choose to shoot:wink:
> 
> I won't be a "cherry picker":wink: I'll move to the next class when my goals are reached
> 
> John


Great post John.

You are a great representative of what competition is all about. The willingness and desire to compete.

If you want to be the best then work your way to the top and beat the best.:wink:


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## field14

What I find so funny about sandbaggers and "cherry pickers"....is that sooner or later...a sandbagger runs into someone that is better at sandbagging than they are, and the same goes with a "cherry picker".

We had a fella in NY State in our club in BHFS that constantly held his scores down so he wasn't in the top BHFS class....then he would go to state, "sandbag" his first score and shoot within the class break...and then on day two...shoot a score way above the top limit...but it was only ONE of the two scores, so the state couldn't do anything about it. The following year, he'd do the same thing....all scores within "class"...and then bust loose on day two. Well, the third year, he got caught in his own game...day one he and another "sandbagger" were shooting together (by coincidence)...and both of them went over the "class score limit", cuz neither one would give the other "quarter". The next day, they were together again...and the guy from our club just didn't have enough to get 'r dun, and got clobbered...best thing...that made TWO scores well above "class limit"...so BOTH of the sandbaggers, the following year were moved UP into the higher class within the division. They both complained that their scores for the summer were below the higher class points limit....but the State held their ground and said that last year BOTH of their tournament scores were way above the lower class limit...so TOUGH on them...and they had to shoot top class for the division...and they BOTH got clobbered but good, too. hahahahaha...serves them right.

Sooner or later, the sandbagging and "cherry picking" come to an end; usually when you run across someone that has it figured out better than you do...and you are so used to holding back...you don't know HOW to come on really strong when you really NEED IT...

That is why I don't like the class system, and also why I'm getting more and more convinced that a 540 is a 540 regardless of which equipment you use to shoot it with....shoot whatcha bring and live with it...YOU make your equipment selections...but a score is a score regardless.

field14:wink::tongue:


----------



## Hutnicks

field14 said:


> What I find so funny about sandbaggers and "cherry pickers"....is that sooner or later...a sandbagger runs into someone that is better at sandbagging than they are, and the same goes with a "cherry picker".
> 
> We had a fella in NY State in our club in BHFS that constantly held his scores down so he wasn't in the top BHFS class....then he would go to state, "sandbag" his first score and shoot within the class break...and then on day two...shoot a score way above the top limit...but it was only ONE of the two scores, so the state couldn't do anything about it. The following year, he'd do the same thing....all scores within "class"...and then bust loose on day two. Well, the third year, he got caught in his own game...day one he and another "sandbagger" were shooting together (by coincidence)...and both of them went over the "class score limit", cuz neither one would give the other "quarter". The next day, they were together again...and the guy from our club just didn't have enough to get 'r dun, and got clobbered...best thing...that made TWO scores well above "class limit"...so BOTH of the sandbaggers, the following year were moved UP into the higher class within the division. They both complained that their scores for the summer were below the higher class points limit....but the State held their ground and said that last year BOTH of their tournament scores were way above the lower class limit...so TOUGH on them...and they had to shoot top class for the division...and they BOTH got clobbered but good, too. hahahahaha...serves them right.
> 
> Sooner or later, the sandbagging and "cherry picking" come to an end; usually when you run across someone that has it figured out better than you do...and you are so used to holding back...you don't know HOW to come on really strong when you really NEED IT...
> 
> That is why I don't like the class system, and also why I'm getting more and more convinced that a 540 is a 540 regardless of which equipment you use to shoot it with....shoot whatcha bring and live with it...YOU make your equipment selections...but a score is a score regardless.
> 
> field14:wink::tongue:


Gee Field, you ever think if they got slaughtered in the next class up, they might have been right in the first place?:becky:


----------



## field14

Hutnicks said:


> Gee Field, you ever think if they got slaughtered in the next class up, they might have been right in the first place?:becky:



You missed it, didn't you...BOTH of them were *capable* of scores ABOVE the upper limit of the next higher class...in fact well into it, and also, the one in my club would shoot practice scores WAY UP there (I'd seen him shoot 540 in PRACTICE)...and then in local tournies, would intentionally miss so as to keep his scores below the upper limit of his "class". We all knew what he was pulling, and knew he would meet his waterloo sooner or later.

They were BOTH shooting practice scores way above the upper limit for the lower class and well into the next HIGHER CLASS...but just not ENOUGH to be at the TOP of the next higher class...so they intentionally held their scores down so they wouldn't be put into the next higher class..but could EASILY WIN the lower class by shooting well beyond the limits.

THAT is SANDBAGGING and intentional to boot.

Just because you can't shoot at the TOP of the class you BELONG IN...doesn't mean you INTENTIONALLY shoot lower in tournaments leading up to state so that you won't be put into the class you BELONG in....

It is disgusting, and IMHO...is a form of CHEATING to boot.

I've seen this countless times...even in FS shooters...guys will intentionally shoot 519 or 518 when the class break is 520...but in practice routinely shoot 530.....but see, 530 isn't a TOP END score of "A" class....so they intentionally shoot 519, knowing that 520 breaks them into "A" class..but the 519 keeps them in "B" class....then, they register for "B" class...and shoot their 519 or 520 the first day....and then "bust loose" and shoot their capable 530 the second day and blow away the LEGITIMATE "B" class shooters....

So, NO, they were under no circumstances RIGHT in the first place....they knew they couldn't WIN in the class they belonged in...but could cheat and easily WIN by intentionally holding back so they could shoot in the LOWER class...and cheat legitimate shooters out of it.

Sandbagging 101, or cherry picking 202...take your choice...but it is NOT RIGHT.:wink:

field14


----------



## Brown Hornet

USNarcher said:


> Beer language yeah. :darkbeer::darkbeer::darkbeer: I ain't upset. Anyone that knows anything about tournament archery knows that division has plenty of competition. :wink:


It isn't the competition....it's about that fact that you missed the ENTIRE point in WVs post:wink:


----------



## FS560

field14 said:


> That is why I don't like the class system, and also why I'm getting more and more convinced that a 540 is a 540 regardless of which equipment you use to shoot it with....shoot whatcha bring and live with it...YOU make your equipment selections...but a score is a score regardless.
> 
> field14:wink::tongue:


There are many people in agreement on this, including me.

Every time this comes up, there are the sandbaggers, cherry pickers, and small freebe ponders that scream about all the archers we would be excluding or running from the game.

That type of same arguement was uswed every time they wanted to allow something additional in BHFS. "If we allow this piece of equipment or change in equipment specification, there will be additional members and shooters flooding in to the shooting style."

That has never happened. Not one, not ever. The who premise is just BS.

The same goes for severe loss of attendance if all styles are blended together in a score based class system.

The sandbaggers, cherry pickers, and small freebe ponders will just pick a class or quit. There are really not that many of them.

NFAA has become nothing but a club of little ponds for everyone to win and feel good about themselves.

There were some styles at the nationals this week with one shooter. That's right, one shooter, but national champion no less.


----------



## USNarcher

WV Has Been said:


> Perhaps your definition of cherry picking and mine are much different.
> 
> I thought my wording clearly defined the type of person I was speaking of.
> 
> Your statement only further proves my assessment of the violators.
> 
> Do you think the top Pro FS shooters could dominate in the pin class or do you think it truly takes a special person to shoot pins. I personally have shot pins indoor as well as I do my FS setup so it would be hard for me to assess. Perhaps I am the exception.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You just mentioned two reason that someone would cherry pick in the pin class.
> 
> 1) The Armature Male Freestyle class is more competitive.
> 
> 2) The Pro Male freestyle class is more competitive.
> 
> Where would it be easier to win a silver bowl if you was a talented shot?
> 
> 
> I think the person you speak of is a BHFS shooter because he fits the *classification of a cherry picker*. It is the lowest class that will allow him to shoot a release so he must flex the rules to win. It has nothing to do with the class just the class of person.:wink:


Yes and Yes. Cuz did it one year in Vegas, shot both classes and got chastized. The Hammer did up until this year. Of course it is harder especially in field and Redding. I moved up after two years of almost always being on the podium. Podium visits are way far and few between now. And yes I have thought about going back. Not to "cherry pick" though.

Guys like the person this thread was started for will never leave this class. Probably for the very reason you state. Should Matt Schmitz move to FS now that he has back to back nationals? Should Hinky move up for the same reason. If it was me I would. But I won't criticize them for not, at least not in a serious way. 

I caught your drift with the post and like I said I do and don't agree. Cept on the beer note. :wink::darkbeer::darkbeer::darkbeer:


----------



## NEVADAPRO

This is exactly why I choose to shoot in the Pro (or whatever is the highest division at a particular shoot) division!

I shot Vegas this year in the Pro division after a 16 year lay-off and I knew I shouldn't have!! But I would rather shoot with the best and get my butt kicked than shoot A-FS or Flights! This is a way that "I" know I will improve by being on the line with guys like Brian, sorry, Has been, and a lot of other great guys at these shoots!! 

I have been shooting for 30 years and if I'm going to win, I want it to mean something to me!! I want to beat the best!! If I can't, so be it! I will work harder!! 

Bottom line...if you need to flat out cheat to win "anything", YOU SUCK!!!


----------



## Hutnicks

field14 said:


> You missed it, didn't you...BOTH of them were *capable* of scores ABOVE the upper limit of the next higher class...in fact well into it, and also, the one in my club would shoot practice scores WAY UP there (I'd seen him shoot 540 in PRACTICE)...and then in local tournies, would intentionally miss so as to keep his scores below the upper limit of his "class". We all knew what he was pulling, and knew he would meet his waterloo sooner or later.
> 
> They were BOTH shooting practice scores way above the upper limit for the lower class and well into the next HIGHER CLASS...but just not ENOUGH to be at the TOP of the next higher class...so they intentionally held their scores down so they wouldn't be put into the next higher class..but could EASILY WIN the lower class by shooting well beyond the limits.
> 
> THAT is SANDBAGGING and intentional to boot.
> 
> Just because you can't shoot at the TOP of the class you BELONG IN...doesn't mean you INTENTIONALLY shoot lower in tournaments leading up to state so that you won't be put into the class you BELONG in....
> 
> It is disgusting, and IMHO...is a form of CHEATING to boot.
> 
> I've seen this countless times...even in FS shooters...guys will intentionally shoot 519 or 518 when the class break is 520...but in practice routinely shoot 530.....but see, 530 isn't a TOP END score of "A" class....so they intentionally shoot 519, knowing that 520 breaks them into "A" class..but the 519 keeps them in "B" class....then, they register for "B" class...and shoot their 519 or 520 the first day....and then "bust loose" and shoot their capable 530 the second day and blow away the LEGITIMATE "B" class shooters....
> 
> So, NO, they were under no circumstances RIGHT in the first place....they knew they couldn't WIN in the class they belonged in...but could cheat and easily WIN by intentionally holding back so they could shoot in the LOWER class...and cheat legitimate shooters out of it.
> 
> Sandbagging 101, or cherry picking 202...take your choice...but it is NOT RIGHT.:wink:
> 
> field14


Didn't miss it at all Field. I just thought I'd bring in another element to the mix. There are more than a few "Range Rats" out there that will decimate the X on home turf and then fold up like a deck chair in competition. It's largely a matter of the mental game itself. Sandbagging itself is also a mental game (rather than use the more colorful description) issue.

I do not see how you can effectively manage via ruling's the mental aspect of competitive archery. And I'm not sure we'd _*want*_ to if we could. 

Score based competition is a partial solution and at first glance I'm all for it. BUT when you are talking about crowning Regional or National kings and queens you really need to consider the equipment in the equation.

Even the service realizes that there is a difference between shooting expert with a rifle as opposed to a pistol.:wink:


----------



## mdbowhunter

Spotshooter2 said:


> MDbowhunter , then it is your setup that allows the cheating. Forget about the averaging and just shoot mano e mano. Everyone shoots against each other and top score wins it all.


I totally agree. Or, if someone shoots X number of points ABOVE the class break point....move them to the next higher class. That'll fix 'em. Not my decision alone. That's for the members in the Maryland Archery Association to decide.


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## Ode1891

mdbowhunter said:


> if someone shoots X number of points ABOVE the class break point....move them to the next higher class. That'll fix 'em. .


Sounds like a great idea! If a B shooter shoots 515 in competition, he's an A shooter and should compete with other A shooters.

I know a guy or two who also shoot the indoor league that way too. They'll shoot horribly to establish an average, and then start pounding out 295's. I barely made the A class this year, so that's my class, yet I know I'll do really well to get in the 520's. I guess as long as you are within the rules as published, it's not really cheating to sandbag for a trophy.


----------



## OneBowTie

USNarcher said:


> Yes and Yes. Cuz did it one year in Vegas, shot both classes and got chastized. The Hammer did up until this year. Of course it is harder especially in field and Redding. I moved up after two years of almost always being on the podium. Podium visits are way far and few between now. And yes I have thought about going back. Not to "cherry pick" though.
> 
> Guys like the person this thread was started for will never leave this class. Probably for the very reason you state. Should Matt Schmitz move to FS now that he has back to back nationals? Should Hinky move up for the same reason. If it was me I would. But I won't criticize them for not, at least not in a serious way.
> 
> I caught your drift with the post and like I said I do and don't agree. Cept on the beer note. :wink::darkbeer::darkbeer::darkbeer:


USN.....there is a big difference between YOU and CUZ/HAMMER and SCHMITZ and them.....

they are and have been PRO'S shooting in all the other BIG MAJOR tourneys as PRO'S and not in classes that are PERCEIVED as JOE classes......as it has been mentioned in this thread.....that just MIGHT make them look like cherry pickers......what is that saying....if it walks, talks, and quacks like duck:wink:

i have no issues at all with YOU, SCHMITZ, HINKY or any other winning JOE staying in the JOE class till you or they are good and ready to move out....

i dont think for a second that the BHFS class is for or about sandbaggers....there are some great shots that simply enjoy that style of shooting.....some names that come to mind are HUMAN, SHARKRED, EWYERS......those guys are awesome shots....and they are the types that are the heart and soul of the BHFS class....

for the record though USN.....you PRObably should go to another class...any class...as you just were a flash in the pan in the freestyle class:tongue:.....


----------



## USNarcher

OneBowTie said:


> USN.....there is a big difference between YOU and CUZ/HAMMER and SCHMITZ and them.....
> 
> they are and have been PRO'S shooting in all the other BIG MAJOR tourneys as PRO'S and not in classes that are PERCEIVED as JOE classes......as it has been mentioned in this thread.....that just MIGHT make them look like cherry pickers......what is that saying....if it walks, talks, and quacks like duck:wink:
> 
> i have no issues at all with YOU, SCHMITZ, HINKY or any other winning JOE staying in the JOE class till you or they are good and ready to move out....
> 
> i dont think for a second that the BHFS class is for or about sandbaggers....there are some great shots that simply enjoy that style of shooting.....some names that come to mind are HUMAN, SHARKRED, EWYERS......those guys are awesome shots....and they are the types that are the heart and soul of the BHFS class....
> 
> for the record though USN.....you PRObably should go to another class...any class...as you just were a flash in the pan in the freestyle class:tongue:.....


Flash in the pan.......I guess showing up to a shoot could constitute a flash. :wink: 

Where has thou been residing to be such an illusion to the archery venue?

USN shall be a contender in 2009 no matter the style of equipment.


----------



## Jebby

*Tool-----The guy is a tool*

I shot with the wonderful MN. dir. in Redding. We always have a good time at that shoot. I have shot with the guy before, he can ruin your day IF you let him. we put the guy in his place, and had a great weekend. Don't let his games get under your skin. Call a spade a spade----or should I say a Tool a Tool. To bad the BHFS class is getting a black eye because a couple of shooters do this. Most of the BHFS shooters know him and his games, brush him under the rug. Shoot and have fun!!!


----------



## rudeman

Jebby,



> To bad the BHFS class is getting a black eye because a couple of shooters do this.


Thanks, finally, for the voice of reason.


----------



## OneBowTie

USNarcher said:


> Flash in the pan.......I guess showing up to a shoot could constitute a flash. :wink:
> 
> Where has thou been residing to be such an illusion to the archery venue?
> 
> USN shall be a contender in 2009 no matter the style of equipment.


you know what i like about you USN....(besides NOTHING:tongue is the fact that you remind me of my good friend HAM R IT ....aka anvil....aka weeble wooble..........no matter how many times you boys get drummed, dropped, beat down.....you dont loose the faith and just keep getting up and coming back.....and still fantasize that you will be a contender......:tongue:



Jebby said:


> I shot with the wonderful MN. dir. in Redding. We always have a good time at that shoot. I have shot with the guy before, he can ruin your day IF you let him. we put the guy in his place, and had a great weekend. Don't let his games get under your skin. Call a spade a spade----or should I say a Tool a Tool. To bad the BHFS class is getting a black eye because a couple of shooters do this. Most of the BHFS shooters know him and his games, brush him under the rug. Shoot and have fun!!!


wow.....after reading this stuff on the MN DIRECTOR.....makes ONE take a whole new outlook on " ESTEEMED"


----------



## Hutnicks

OneBowTie said:


> you know what i like about you USN....(besides NOTHING:tongue is the fact that you remind me of my good friend HAM R IT ....aka anvil....aka weeble wooble..........no matter how many times you boys get drummed, dropped, beat down.....you dont loose the faith and just keep getting up and coming back.....and still fantasize that you will be a contender......:tongue:
> 
> 
> 
> wow.....after reading this stuff on the MN DIRECTOR.....makes ONE take a whole new outlook on " ESTEEMED"


Either that or YOU didn't read the manual properly:wink: Get on that will ya:


----------



## Hinkelmonster

My thoughts on the BHFS class is this......................

If they wanna shoot pins then shoot pins..................if they wann shoot scopes then shoot scopes................


BUT!!!!!


Once the game is all said and done DO NOT try and compare the scores shot in BHFS with the scores shot in FS!!!

My reasoning...............

Especially in Vegas and Indoor...............in FS you KNOW you CANNOT miss!!! In BH you can shoot an 8/5 on your first arrow and still win!!!

It's a completely different type of mind set!!!

In feild...............to win a shoot with gamers..........you need an upper 50's score while the BH usually need a 50ish. Once again it's a completely different mind set!!!!

Now am I in anyway trying to put down the BH's.........NOPE............is Timmay the man..............usually, but I'd like to see him shoot the pins in the FS class and see what scores he's able to compile...........all while knowing that one bobble and it's syanara!!!!


----------



## Juice Box Hero

I'm sorry to see so many people jump on the case of one person, especially people who were not involved. 

I was at the midwestern sectionals in MN. It was stated before we even began shooting that ties would be broken with the score of the first 80yd walk-up target we shot. Our first scoring target was circled on our score card. 

HuntElk, Did you contact the director at your shoot about this issue or did you just start pointing fingers? 

In reading this thread it doesn't seem to occur to anyone that the other director could have mis-spoke or that there could have been a misunderstanding on how ties were to be broken. As for using X's as the tie-breaker: I've shot many different field shoots and not once have I seen them use X's as tie breakers, not at worlds, nationals, or state. I've never seen anyone even record them.

To the director's credit - I've shot with this individual in the past and I've never seen him do anything unsportsmanlike. It seems obvious to me that someone spoke incorrectly, but let's not assume the culprit. 

According to the rules, as they were stated at the beginning of the tournament, the director won that third place metal. Next time come and shoot in the wind with us!!!! we were shooting in 30-40mph wind gusts, compared to 5mph winds reported in Kansas City, MO. If a third place metal means that much to you - I know where I can get a pro class metal for ya. PM me and I'll get it sent out :wink:


----------



## Hutnicks

Hinkelmonster said:


> My thoughts on the BHFS class is this......................
> 
> If they wanna shoot pins then shoot pins..................if they wann shoot scopes then shoot scopes................
> 
> 
> BUT!!!!!
> 
> 
> Once the game is all said and done DO NOT try and compare the scores shot in BHFS with the scores shot in FS!!!
> 
> My reasoning...............
> 
> Especially in Vegas and Indoor...............in FS you KNOW you CANNOT miss!!! In BH you can shoot an 8/5 on your first arrow and still win!!!
> 
> It's a completely different type of mind set!!!
> 
> In feild...............to win a shoot with gamers..........you need an upper 50's score while the BH usually need a 50ish. Once again it's a completely different mind set!!!!
> 
> Now am I in anyway trying to put down the BH's.........NOPE............is Timmay the man..............usually, but I'd like to see him shoot the pins in the FS class and see what scores he's able to compile...........all while knowing that one bobble and it's syanara!!!!


Hinkel, once in a while you come out with a real gem and this is one of em. The whole score is a score thing gets pooped around like some save all system. And WITHIN classes it works. BUT as you so eloquently point out equipment makes a very big difference and dictates the entire STYLE of shooting.

Good work man!


----------



## huntelk

*maybe you should have read the whole thread*



Juice Box Hero said:


> I'm sorry to see so many people jump on the case of one person, especially people who were not involved.
> 
> I was at the midwestern sectionals in MN. It was stated before we even began shooting that ties would be broken with the score of the first 80yd walk-up target we shot. Our first scoring target was circled on our score card.
> HuntElk, Did you contact the director at your shoot about this issue or did you just start pointing fingers?
> 
> In reading this thread it doesn't seem to occur to anyone that the other director could have mis-spoke or that there could have been a misunderstanding on how ties were to be broken. As for using X's as the tie-breaker: I've shot many different field shoots and not once have I seen them use X's as tie breakers, not at worlds, nationals, or state. I've never seen anyone even record them.
> 
> To the director's credit - I've shot with this individual in the past and I've never seen him do anything unsportsmanlike. It seems obvious to me that someone spoke incorrectly, but let's not assume the culprit.
> 
> According to the rules, as they were stated at the beginning of the tournament, the director won that third place metal. Next time come and shoot in the wind with us!!!! we were shooting in 30-40mph wind gusts, compared to 5mph winds reported in Kansas City, MO. If a third place metal means that much to you - I know where I can get a pro class metal for ya. PM me and I'll get it sent out :wink:


You should have read the whole thread before blowing smoke! Go back and read where it was clearly stated that the SECTIONAL DIRECTOR was in KC and stood before all of us and stated the rules for the SECTIONAL competition. The SECTIONAL Director stated that BOTH KC and MINN would count x's for tie breaker.

Everyone in MINN was told that the 80 yd (as you again confirmed my info) was the tie breaker. In the end, NEITHER of the rules stated were used. In the end and I QUOTE the SECTIONAL director "it was broken by the archer that had the highest 14 half score on the Field round".

This all came about first and formost because of a LACK OF COMMUNICATION between the SECTIONAL director and a STATE director. In the end, neither original rule was upheld, the scores were changed from how the SECTIONAL Director had laid them out to something ENTIRELY different that benefitted ONLY the MINN. STATE director and HIS boyz. 

Next time you decide to open your trap, FIRST get your facts straight.


----------



## field14

Guess this time, it WAS or IS in the "jurisdiction" of somebody in the NFAA.

How many other "ties" were there? Were they all broken in the SAME MANNER as this 3rd place tie was broken? Or was each tie broken in a different manner?

For the person a ways back that in a post said "they NEVER use X's for tie-breakers and I've never seen people so much as even count x's." WRONG....perhaps in his area, people don't count x's...but....In the areas of the country I've had the pleasure and fortune to shoot in....at nearly ALL local shoots, and even sectionals and nationals, the groups I shot in COUNTED X's...maybe not for tie-breakers every time...but as a INDICATOR of how well they were really shooting. The goal was always at least 50% X's...or we shooters knew that we weren't shooting all that good at all. 40X+ was really good shooting, and kept us really happy! And, YES....I"ve seen x-counts on a half OVER 50 X's! 

Oh, and in some cases, on field rounds, we would circle shots that were outside the identity line too...again, goal is to minimize how far our "misses" were. 

We also pooled and played "nickel-dime-quarter"....whereby the person with the most X's got paid a nickel, dime, or quarter PER X that they beat each person in the group by...and EVERYONE paid him...the next lower guy was paid by everyone he beat...and the bottom guy in X-count...he paid EVERYONE that beat him in x-count a nickel, dime, or quarter per X. So, you see, X's ARE COUNTED for many purposes in many areas of the country, and not for just tie-breakers either. I've managed to win more than I lost in these "games people play." FIELD SHOOTING CAN BE A BLAST if people just use some ingenuity. These "pools" weren't always just in the shooting group either...there were many times it involved the entire shooting division...such as BHFS, or AMFS, or PRO Male Freestyle, etc....then the Paying up gets to be fun, and for some, maybe a tad expensive....so bring your nickels, dimes, or quarters....

field14:zip::embara::sad::secret:


----------



## huntelk

Juice Box Hero said:


> I'm sorry to see so many people jump on the case of one person, especially people who were not involved.
> 
> I was at the midwestern sectionals in MN. It was stated before we even began shooting that ties would be broken with the score of the first 80yd walk-up target we shot. Our first scoring target was circled on our score card.
> 
> HuntElk, Did you contact the director at your shoot about this issue or did you just start pointing fingers?
> 
> In reading this thread it doesn't seem to occur to anyone that the other director could have mis-spoke or that there could have been a misunderstanding on how ties were to be broken. As for using X's as the tie-breaker: I've shot many different field shoots and not once have I seen them use X's as tie breakers, not at worlds, nationals, or state. I've never seen anyone even record them.
> 
> To the director's credit - I've shot with this individual in the past and I've never seen him do anything unsportsmanlike. It seems obvious to me that someone spoke incorrectly, but let's not assume the culprit.
> 
> According to the rules, as they were stated at the beginning of the tournament, the director won that third place metal. Next time come and shoot in the wind with us!!!! we were shooting in 30-40mph wind gusts, compared to 5mph winds reported in Kansas City, MO. If a third place metal means that much to you - I know where I can get a pro class metal for ya. PM me and I'll get it sent out :wink:


Just another example of how you jumped in without reading the first post OR, knowing what you are talking about! 

Just in case the first post of this thread has too many words for you to comprehend at once, I stated that I found out this information FROM the MO. State director's WIFE (who really runs things). The Mo. Director and crew fought tooth and nail to KEEP things right. But since the MINN. State Director is pals (hunting buddies) with the Sectional Director, and the Sectional director has a complete lack of intestinal fortitude, new rules were made after the fact, places were changed on the website, Shooters from the South were robbed, integrity and honor were pushed aside and the BOYZ will still have a good time on thier hunting trip.

Oh, by the way, I am really sorry the wind was blowing  in Minnesota. Maybe the rule change was their way of giving you a handicapukey:


----------



## huntelk

*I was told by the Mo. organizers there were 4 ties*



field14 said:


> Guess this time, it WAS or IS in the "jurisdiction" of somebody in the NFAA.
> 
> How many other "ties" were there? Were they all broken in the SAME MANNER as this 3rd place tie was broken? Or was each tie broken in a different manner?
> 
> For the person a ways back that in a post said "they NEVER use X's for tie-breakers and I've never seen people so much as even count x's." WRONG....perhaps in his area, people don't count x's...but....In the areas of the country I've had the pleasure and fortune to shoot in....at nearly ALL local shoots, and even sectionals and nationals, the groups I shot in COUNTED X's...maybe not for tie-breakers every time...but as a INDICATOR of how well they were really shooting. The goal was always at least 50% X's...or we shooters knew that we weren't shooting all that good at all. 40X+ was really good shooting, and kept us really happy! And, YES....I"ve seen x-counts on a half OVER 50 X's! Oh, and in some cases, on field rounds, we would circle shots that were outside the identity line too...again, goal is to minimize how far our "misses" were. We also pooled and played "nickel-dime-quarter"....whereby the person with the most X's got paid a nickel, dime, or quarter PER X that they beat each person in the group by...and EVERYONE paid him...the next lower guy was paid by everyone he beat...and the bottom guy in X-count...he paid EVERYONE that beat him in x-count a nickel, dime, or quarter per X. So, you see, X's ARE COUNTED for many purposes in many areas of the country, and not for just tie-breakers either.
> 
> field14:zip::embara::sad::secret:


I only know for sure of mine and the guy that won the male freestyle-he got moved to second


----------



## huntelk

Juice Box Hero said:


> I'm sorry to see so many people jump on the case of one person, especially people who were not involved.
> 
> I was at the midwestern sectionals in MN. It was stated before we even began shooting that ties would be broken with the score of the first 80yd walk-up target we shot. Our first scoring target was circled on our score card.
> 
> HuntElk, Did you contact the director at your shoot about this issue or did you just start pointing fingers?
> 
> In reading this thread it doesn't seem to occur to anyone that the other director could have mis-spoke or that there could have been a misunderstanding on how ties were to be broken. As for using X's as the tie-breaker: I've shot many different field shoots and not once have I seen them use X's as tie breakers, not at worlds, nationals, or state. I've never seen anyone even record them.
> 
> To the director's credit - I've shot with this individual in the past and I've never seen him do anything unsportsmanlike. It seems obvious to me that someone spoke incorrectly, but let's not assume the culprit.
> 
> According to the rules, as they were stated at the beginning of the tournament, the director won that third place metal. Next time come and shoot in the wind with us!!!! we were shooting in 30-40mph wind gusts, compared to 5mph winds reported in Kansas City, MO. If a third place metal means that much to you - I know where I can get a pro class metal for ya. PM me and I'll get it sent out :wink:



As stated before (Oh, I'm sorry I forgot you haven't read the rest of the thread), I just want our names put back where they belong on the NFAA web page per the original rules set fourth by the SECTIONAL Director. I want to restore a little respect to the Midwestern Section of the NFAA. You guys can keep the the medals as we know what your director will do to get them. I'm just curious what he REALLY has to do in deer camp to earn all this:zip:ukey:


----------



## huntelk

*To be completely straight forward,*

The real honest to goodness reason this whole fiasco has my feathers so ruffled is that I have been embarrased by the whole thing. Embarrassed that I have stood by and promoted the NFAA that is. I really like field and indoor and have promoted and promoted these two venues to a bunch of anti-spotties for a while now. I got funds earned by 3-d shoots to help fix up the field course to get re-chartered and bid the sectionals next year. I got volunteers to come out on thier time off to sweat and toil over something they really didn't believe in because I gave MY WORD "Build it and they will come".

Now, it really looks and feels to me that our time was wasted, and my word was be-littled. It seems all my effforts to "sell" field and spots to my "chewie" buddies has been destroyed by greed and politics. -Maybe that is just life, and I need to get used to it-I would like to think that is not how the NFAA really is????

At this point my spirit for having anything to do with the Midwestern Section is really bruised and I don't really know if anything less than a formal apology to all the shooters involved would help (which I do not expect). 

On the side topic, I really like shooting pins and like the BHFS class too. I may have to move to freestyle just to avoid being looked down on and pointed to as being one of the "problem children". I really just love to shoot and wish we could do JUST that without all the CRAP. Life is too short to have a HOBBY that causes this kind of stress. Anyone got a set of golf clubs they would trade for a couple target bows?


----------



## BULSEYE

huntelk said:


> [/COLOR]
> 
> 
> As stated before (Oh, I'm sorry I forgot you haven't read the rest of the thread), I just want our names put back where they belong on the NFAA web page per the original rules set fourth by the SECTIONAL Director. I want to restore a little respect to the Midwestern Section of the NFAA. You guys can keep the the medals as we know what your director will do to get them. I'm just curious what he REALLY has to do in deer camp to earn all this:zip:ukey:


I guess what we are really trying to figure out is, did you do some research to find out what the rule for braking ties was really supposed to be? What was the rule set forth by the NFAA before the shoot? Could it be that your director made a mistake in what they announced was going to be the tie breaker? I am thinking this is a possibility since they do not keep track of X,s in a field round. If this is the case then I believe the person you have a beef with is your director. I am sorry you were excited to get 3rd and then had it stripped away, that sucks. Lets at least point the finger in the right direction.


----------



## huntelk

VTSTRINGMAN said:


> I guess what we are really trying to figure out is, did you do some research to find out what the rule for braking ties was really supposed to be? What was the rule set forth by the NFAA before the shoot? Could it be that your director made a mistake in what they announced was going to be the tie breaker? I am thinking this is a possibility since they do not keep track of X,s in a field round. If this is the case then I believe the person you have a beef with is your director. I am sorry you were excited to get 3rd and then had it stripped away, that sucks. Lets at least point the finger in the right direction.



I will keep trying to get this point across:

1. The Midwest Sectional Field tournament was held in two places similtaniously-Minnesota and Missouri.

2. The Midwest Sectional Director was at the Missouri tournament site as was the Mo. State director.

3. The Midwest Sectional Director stated the rules for the Midwestern SECTIONAL TOURNAMENT including "ties will be broken by counting x's on the field round".

4. The Minnesota shooters were told in their rules meeting "ties would be broken with the score of the first 80yd walk-up target shot" per the Minnesota State Director (I was told this by 2 different guys that were at the Minn. site and now juice box re-confirmed).

5. The scores were posted on the NFAA web to reflect the rules set by the SECTIONAL Director.

6. Later, the scores were changed on the site, and no one was notified-I found out by looking at the site a month later.

7. The scores were changed using a third way of breaking ties not mentioned to either group of shooters. Quote from the Sectional Director in Yankton at the Na'l 3-d---"it was broken by the archer that had the highest 14 half score on the Field round".

8. Per Missouri tounament organizers (State director's family) "Letters were written, phone calls made, the Sect. Direct gave in to Minn. director-we have done everything possible and lost to the interest of hunting buddies"

9. The wind blew in Minnesota, it did not blow in Missouri (not sure what this has to do with the issue at hand but you guys keep bringing it up so I thought I'd clarify)


----------



## huntelk

VTSTRINGMAN said:


> I guess what we are really trying to figure out is, did you do some research to find out what the rule for braking ties was really supposed to be?
> Yes, talked to several shooters from both sites, Mo. State directors family, Iowa shooters and had others talk to the Sect. Direct as I was too angry at him to ask myself.
> 
> What was the rule set forth by the NFAA before the shoot?
> Rules set by Sectional Director "Ties broken by x's on Field round"
> 
> Could it be that your director made a mistake in what they announced was going to be the tie breaker?
> No, becausse it wasn't him that stated them, it was the Sect. Director that stated the rules right in front of me and everyone in KC.
> 
> I am thinking this is a possibility since they do not keep track of X,s in a field round. If this is the case then I believe the person you have a beef with is your director.
> uh, no
> 
> I am sorry you were excited to get 3rd and then had it stripped away, that sucks.
> That and a lot more.
> 
> Lets at least point the finger in the right direction.


 Ok, I am, and it is pointing North!


----------



## rudeman

> I really like shooting pins and like the BHFS class too. I may have to move to freestyle just to avoid being looked down on and pointed to as being one of the "problem children".


Don't kid yourself, there are problem children in every class. And don't let anyone think they have the right to look down upon you. The classes are equal. There is no hierarchy. When someone refers to "moving up" to freestyle, they're referring to the amount of money they'll be spending.

Keep shooting the pins, if you want. The BHFS is a great class, is as competitive as any and, the winner in that class can hold his/her head up high as the National (or Sectional or State or Club) Champion. 

If the NFAA ever gets serious about growing their membership, it's the bowhunters out there they need to go after. (What forum on this board is the most popular, maybe after General? Bowhunting! Hello!) If there were no BHFS, how many bowhunters will come over to an organization that makes them compete with what looks like to them as guys carrying around lunar orbiters as bows? They'll stay in their 3D world where at least there it's recognized that equipment *does* make a difference.


----------



## BULSEYE

huntelk said:


> Just another example of how you jumped in without reading the first post OR, knowing what you are talking about!
> 
> Just in case the first post of this thread has too many words for you to comprehend at once, I stated that I found out this information FROM the MO. State director's WIFE (who really runs things). The Mo. Director and crew fought tooth and nail to KEEP things right. But since the MINN. State Director is pals (hunting buddies) with the Sectional Director, and the Sectional director has a complete lack of intestinal fortitude, new rules were made after the fact, places were changed on the website, Shooters from the South were robbed, integrity and honor were pushed aside and the BOYZ will still have a good time on thier hunting trip.
> 
> Oh, by the way, I am really sorry the wind was blowing  in Minnesota. Maybe the rule change was their way of giving you a handicapukey:


I will apologize from Minnesota for your loss of third place in a horse crap manner. I will however take offense to your comment towards Juice Box Hero insinuating that she is stupid. She is one of the smartest people I know and and more caring than anyone you will ever have the pleasure of meeting!! Say what you want about the rules, the directors, the wind, but I feel you owe Juice Box Hero an apology!! You can argue a point without trying to belittle people that you don't even have the pleasure of knowing. Neither she or I tried to make you out to be stupid. We were just trying to understand. I will except the fact that you are mad at the situation, but lets keep it civil.


----------



## huntelk

Hinkelmonster said:


> My thoughts on the BHFS class is this......................
> 
> If they wanna shoot pins then shoot pins..................if they wann shoot scopes then shoot scopes................
> 
> 
> BUT!!!!!
> 
> 
> Once the game is all said and done DO NOT try and compare the scores shot in BHFS with the scores shot in FS!!!
> 
> My reasoning...............
> 
> Especially in Vegas and Indoor...............in FS you KNOW you CANNOT miss!!! In BH you can shoot an 8/5 on your first arrow and still win!!!
> 
> It's a completely different type of mind set!!!
> 
> In feild...............to win a shoot with gamers..........you need an upper 50's score while the BH usually need a 50ish. Once again it's a completely different mind set!!!!
> 
> Now am I in anyway trying to put down the BH's.........NOPE............is Timmay the man..............usually, but I'd like to see him shoot the pins in the FS class and see what scores he's able to compile...........all while knowing that one bobble and it's syanara!!!!


I think we are on the same page here. BHFS and Freestyle are two different animals. sure there are guys that can do both, but I don't think a move from one class to the other is a move up or down.....they are two different mindsets entirely.


----------



## sharkred7

VTSTRINGMAN said:


> I guess what we are really trying to figure out is, did you do some research to find out what the rule for braking ties was really supposed to be? What was the rule set forth by the NFAA before the shoot? Could it be that your director made a mistake in what they announced was going to be the tie breaker? I am thinking this is a possibility since they do not keep track of X,s in a field round. If this is the case then I believe the person you have a beef with is your director. I am sorry you were excited to get 3rd and then had it stripped away, that sucks. Lets at least point the finger in the right direction.


Why don't you keep track of X's? There is a spot on the score card for them and even a spot to record # of hits.

I personally like to track X's to gauge how I am shooting. I like Fields analogy of 50% X's.


----------



## BULSEYE

sharkred7 said:


> Why don't you keep track of X's? There is a spot on the score card for them and even a spot to record # of hits.
> 
> I personally like to track X's to gauge how I am shooting. I like Fields analogy of 50% X's.


I personally keep track of X's, but we were not required to as part of the scoring in Minnesota. I just got back from Yankton, the NFAA outdoor nationals, and again we were not required to keep track of X's. I do agree that it is a good idea to keep track for your own benefit to see how you are shooting and the arrows are grouping, but they are not used as tie breakers at any of the field shoots I have done.


----------



## McCann

VTSTRINGMAN said:


> I will apologize from Minnesota for your loss of third place in a horse crap manner. I will however take offense to your comment towards Juice Box Hero insinuating that she is stupid. She is one of the smartest people I know and and more caring than anyone you will ever have the pleasure of meeting!! Say what you want about the rules, the directors, the wind, but I feel you owe Juice Box Hero an apology!! You can argue a point without trying to belittle people that you don't even have the pleasure of knowing. Neither she or I tried to make you out to be stupid. We were just trying to understand. I will except the fact that you are mad at the situation, but lets keep it civil.


Stringman where did he state or insinuate that anyone was stupid? If I remember correctly Earl is the MO state director which would make Mille his wife. Like 'em or hate 'em Earl and Millie do a lot of work for the archery in the State of Misssouri. I do not know if they get on AT or not but Huntelk did not insult the wife of the Missouri State Director.

Marc


----------



## Brown Hornet

*Warning too all*



McCann said:


> Stringman where did he state or insinuate that anyone was stupid? If I remember correctly Earl is the MO state director which would make Mille his wife. Like 'em or hate 'em Earl and Millie do a lot of work for the archery in the State of Misssouri. I do not know if they get on AT or not but Huntelk did not insult the wife of the Missouri State Director.
> 
> Marc


Stringman is correct.....he was slick about it but it's in there:wink:


NOW....Huntelk.....I understand your frustration.....

BUT let this be your *WARNING*. Personal attacks on Juicy Juice are not allowed in this forum and they aren't allowed on anyone else in any other parts of AT either. Next time there will be a vacation instead of a warning...:wink:

Please keep this thread civil otherwise this will be the FIRST thread yanked from the Field forum EVER....:darkbeer:


----------



## huntelk

VTSTRINGMAN said:


> I will apologize from Minnesota for your loss of third place in a horse crap manner. I will however take offense to your comment towards Juice Box Hero insinuating that she is stupid. She is one of the smartest people I know and and more caring than anyone you will ever have the pleasure of meeting!! Say what you want about the rules, the directors, the wind, but I feel you owe Juice Box Hero an apology!! You can argue a point without trying to belittle people that you don't even have the pleasure of knowing. Neither she or I tried to make you out to be stupid. We were just trying to understand. I will except the fact that you are mad at the situation, but lets keep it civil.


First of all, I didn't realize "she" was a "she". So, I am sorry that I may have responded too aggressively to "Her" post. The first things she typed made it obvious that she had not even read what had been said and accused me of not doing my homework. Then she went on in a very uninformed manor to spew more useless diatribe without knowing what she was talking about. Emotions have been hightened over this ordeal and it further irritated the situation when someone jumps in the middle of an issue without the facts or even the curtesy of reading prior posts. The last little snide remark in her post about the medal to someone she doesn't even know is not the kind of thing the "most caring person you know" makes either.

She (and maybe you) obviously either doesn't know, or has chosen to turn a blind eye to the history of the Minn. Director. Most everyone that has had any dealings with him know of his character, and anyone willing to do any research can even find that he has cheated before, been protested, and lost-even though all the NFAA did was throw out one day's score, he is still a convicted cheater in many people eyes.

So, I appologize for hurting your feelings Juice. I would recommend that if you truly wear your heart on your sleeve that you refrain from jumping in the middle of heated discussion. I am sure you are a nice person and I have no personal issue with you. As far as questioning your intelligence, I don't know if you are as smart as Vstringman says, but I do know that even brilliant people sometimes lack the common sense to prepare themselves with good "intellegence" before entering battle. So that being said, I am sorry for making you think I was calling you stupid.


----------



## Brown Hornet

huntelk said:


> First of all, I didn't realize "she" was a "she". So, I am sorry that I may have responded too aggressively to "Her" post. The first things she typed made it obvious that she had not even read what had been said and accused me of not doing my homework. Then she went on in a very uninformed manor to spew more useless diatribe without knowing what she was talking about. Emotions have been hightened over this ordeal and it further irritated the situation when someone jumps in the middle of an issue without the facts or even the curtesy of reading prior posts. The last little snide remark in her post about the medal to someone she doesn't even know is not the kind of thing the "most caring person you know" makes either.
> 
> She (and maybe you) obviously either doesn't know, or has chosen to turn a blind eye to the history of the Minn. Director. Most everyone that has had any dealings with him know of his character, and anyone willing to do any research can even find that he has cheated before, been protested, and lost-even though all the NFAA did was throw out one day's score, he is still a convicted cheater in many people eyes.
> 
> So, I appologize for hurting your feelings Juice. I would recommend that if you truly wear your heart on your sleeve that you refrain from jumping in the middle of heated discussion. I am sure you are a nice person and I have no personal issue with you. As far as questioning your intelligence, I don't know if you are as smart as Vstringman says, but I do know that even brilliant people sometimes lack the common sense to prepare themselves with good "intellegence" before entering battle. So that being said, I am sorry for making you think I was calling you stupid.


Doesn't matter if it was directed to a he or a she........

and I would suggest.....for the last time.....that you watch it. The little "my agent told me to apologize" apology that is more of a kiss off apoplogy is worse then saying nothing. 

If you haven't noticed...you are the only one really that fits the "heated" discussion mold.....

and yes "brilliant people sometimes lack the common sense to prepare themselves with good "intellegence" before entering battle"....some people forget to READ what they type before they hit submit......look in the mirror my friend.


----------



## huntelk

Everyone, my beef is with the two NFAA officials previously mentioned, the Midwest Sectional Director and the Minn. State Director-NONE of you.

I, ME, Myself have been the most angry dog in this issue. I am very passionate about making things that I perceive as "wrong" into "right". In doing so my emotion has been on "high alert" and caused anger to overcome civility. I have bitten at anyone that I perceived as opposition.

I thank everyone that has pm'd, e-mailed and called me in support of encouraging not only justice, but change to issues at hand in the Midwestern Section of the NFAA.

My feelings toward the two offending officials and what they did remains and I will continue to encourage change, but will try diligently to not perceive opposition by other members as a personal attack.

I sincerely apologize on my own accord (I don't have an agent:tongue to all above posters whom I have attacked either intentionally or unintentionally in this matter.


Tracy


----------



## Brown Hornet

Good post Tracy.....:darkbeer:


----------



## Bees

So has anyone nailed these guys nuts to a stump and kick em over backwards yet or what ????


----------



## field14

Bees said:


> So has anyone nailed these guys nuts to a stump and kick em over backwards yet or what ????


Even kicking OLD stumps might not get them to budge or "give in" and they'll likely keep doing the same thing and expecting different results anyways...cuz...that is just the way it has always been done.

Sad, but true...REACTIVE instead of PROactive...hoping it will go away or that nobody notices so that you don't have to make a decision or go about changes.

Happens everytime when "new blood" isn't getting into positions of authority, or the "cliques" continue on unabated, or you don't get a NEW MIX on a regular basis... Any idea is a "bad deal" cuz, tried or not...how can it ever work..>"I", "ME" just can't figure it ever working for ME....and that is all that counts..>ME." Or so the sentiment seems to flow these days....

field14


----------



## 60Xbulldog60X

I have a feeling that from this point forward, one individual in particular will not be getting away with anything else at the National level. This past Outdoor Nationals has opened the eyes to many on the said individuals actions during that week in Yankton.:wink:


----------



## WV Has Been

60Xbulldog60X said:


> I have a feeling that from this point forward, one individual in particular will not be getting away with anything else at the National level. This past Outdoor Nationals has opened the eyes to many on the said individuals actions during that week in Yankton.:wink:


PM me some details.

If this guy really is a tool I want to know about it. If he is not then I apologize in advance for assuming he is a tool based on hearsay.:wink:


----------



## rock monkey

just remember,

karma charges interest


----------



## Hutnicks

rock monkey said:


> just remember,
> 
> karma charges interest


That's great if you can actually wait until your next lifetime for justice:wink: It's why the legal system doesn't apply it:


----------



## rock monkey

if the legal system did apply it, things would be much more fair across the board.

i dont see a difference between an office worker embezzling 20mil from a bank and an avg joe robbing a bank for 20mil. somehow, white collar crime isnt as bad of a thing. look at the penalties given for each action when the goal was the same


----------



## WV Has Been

I'll give the individual the benefit of doubt only because I have never met him but if what I have read is true:secret: the guy is a tool. A real black-eye for archery and someone who should not be in a position of authority.


----------



## Hutnicks

WV Has Been said:


> I'll give the individual the benefit of doubt only because I have never met him but if what I have read is true:secret: the guy is a tool. A real black-eye for archery and someone who should not be in a position of authority.


I tend to agree here. Is there no method of arbitration where an uninterested party, say a director from another region or complete outsider can look into stuff like this? Heck even the tax guys up here have a "fairness committee:wink:"


----------



## field14

Hutnicks said:


> I tend to agree here. Is there no method of arbitration where an uninterested party, say a director from another region or complete outsider can look into stuff like this? Heck even the tax guys up here have a "fairness committee:wink:"



Got to be a member of the "good ole boys' club" first! Politics, ya know.

Now you wouldn't ever think favorites might be being played, would you?:wink:

field14:tongue:


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## Hutnicks

field14 said:


> Got to be a member of the "good ole boys' club" first! Politics, ya know.
> 
> Now you wouldn't ever think favorites might be being played, would you?:wink:
> 
> field14:tongue:


I think, that is in fact what we are trying to determine here.:wink: If there is some form of biased rulings going on I would hope that the ORGANIZATION in order to secure it's own future would step up and provide some leadership here.


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## field14

Hutnicks said:


> I think, that is in fact what we are trying to determine here.:wink: If there is some form of biased rulings going on I would hope that the ORGANIZATION in order to secure it's own future would step up and provide some leadership here.


Butcha see....NO "official" payment of a $25 fee for "officially" filing a PROtest...therefore....not in the "Jurisdiction", so it "didn't happen."

Or....maybe not...but....good ole boys' clubs are "funny that way."
field14:zip:


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## Hutnicks

field14 said:


> Butcha see....NO "official" payment of a $25 fee for "officially" filing a PROtest...therefore....not in the "Jurisdiction", so it "didn't happen."
> 
> Or....maybe not...but....good ole boys' clubs are "funny that way."
> field14:zip:


Don't think the protest scenario applies here, as there was no way to determine the issue until after the tournament closed. This is a management issue and speaks to how the parent org is going to allow it's tournaments to be conducted.


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## field14

Hutnicks said:


> Don't think the protest scenario applies here, as there was no way to determine the issue until after the tournament closed. This is a management issue and speaks to how the parent org is going to allow it's tournaments to be conducted.


I would still think that the complaint has to be put into writing and be super well documented to avoid the excuse of "hearsay evidence," wouldn't you? Names, dates, times, places, witnesses...and probably signed statements from the witnesses too....from BOTH locations as to what they were told the first time and how it all finally "panned out."

field14:tongue:


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## rock monkey

Hutnicks said:


> Don't think the protest scenario applies here, as there was no way to determine the issue until after the tournament closed. This is a management issue and speaks to how the parent org is going to allow it's tournaments to be conducted.



that is another problem of the remote program.....you dont find out about things until after the fact.

by putting the rules on the backs of scorecards and issue the cards from a central location, there can be no excuses of stupidity/ignorance on either the archer's part or the tournament director's part.

by enforcing the adherence of policy regarding the use of the officially marked, officially issued scorecards you minimize the cheat factor like i suggested earlier.

the idea of satellite shoots dont bother me as long as the other locations are on the same pages of the rules. to know i shot my personal best and know i placed high by the rules explained to me, i would be highly upset if the rules happened to change overnight.


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## Hutnicks

field14 said:


> I would still think that the complaint has to be put into writing and be super well documented to avoid the excuse of "hearsay evidence," wouldn't you? Names, dates, times, places, witnesses...and probably signed statements from the witnesses too....from BOTH locations as to what they were told the first time and how it all finally "panned out."
> 
> field14:tongue:


No!


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## WV Has Been

Hutnicks said:


> No!


Look into the member in good standing scenario.:wink:


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## huntelk

The only good answer I can find is to just spend my traveling dollar$ on going to shoots like the the hillbilly field and the braggin' rights 3-d. There are a lot of cometitions where the majority come to socialize and have a great time. Shoots where a "crispie" from on of your fellow "Joe's" means more than another dust collector to set on a shelf. No 200 page rule books, no politics, just a bunch of archers that love the game the companionship. Archers that hold each other to the unspoken rule of respect for the integrity of the game and each other.


That is why I started shooting and I have learned through all of this that that is what made it enjoyable. I look back and see what really makes archery the most enjoyable for me is taking someone new along and introducing them to the comaradary and the "brotherhood" of archers.

I am ready to have FUN again! You field guys shoot for crispies don't you? I may have to bring a fistfull to loose, but I am going to have to get practiced up to maybe try and take one from the Hornet, WV or even the ultimate Joe Hinky next year!:tongue:


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## Bees

huntelk said:


> The only good answer I can find is to just spend my traveling dollar$ on going to shoots like the the hillbilly field and the braggin' rights 3-d. There are a lot of cometitions where the majority come to socialize and have a great time. Shoots where a "crispie" from on of your fellow "Joe's" means more than another dust collector to set on a shelf. No 200 page rule books, no politics, just a bunch of archers that love the game the companionship. Archers that hold each other to the unspoken rule of respect for the integrity of the game and each other.
> 
> 
> That is why I started shooting and I have learned through all of this that that is what made it enjoyable. I look back and see what really makes archery the most enjoyable for me is taking someone new along and introducing them to the comaradary and the "brotherhood" of archers.
> 
> I am ready to have FUN again! You field guys shoot for crispies don't you? I may have to bring a fistfull to loose, but I am going to have to get practiced up to maybe try and take one from the Hornet, WV or even the ultimate Joe Hinky next year!:tongue:


TTT

it's good to have goals.


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## huntelk

Looking at how thes guys shoot, I'm going to have to get them to bet a crispie on every target. Then all I have to do is make sure I shoot all 5's on the single target they miss one 5 on:tongue:. So, it should only cost me $27-right:wink:?


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## Bees

huntelk said:


> Looking at how thes guys shoot, I'm going to have to get them to bet a crispie on every target. Then all I have to do is make sure I shoot all 5's on the single target they miss one 5 on:tongue:. So, it should only cost me $27-right:wink:?



you got it.

they got another game called hooters. Closest arrow to the center of the X wins the hooter for that target. 
I saw X hunter on a hill someplace with a bunch of Crispies stuck on an arrow in his quiver indicating that he had won that many hooters.

you should come to the hillbillly shoot next summer, and get in on some of the action. 

oh to stay on topic the offending people will have a fair trial right here on Archery talk and then be Drawn and Quartered at noon. :wink:


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## Hutnicks

huntelk said:


> Looking at how thes guys shoot, I'm going to have to get them to bet a crispie on every target. Then all I have to do is make sure I shoot all 5's on the single target they miss one 5 on:tongue:. So, it should only cost me $27-right:wink:?


So, in essence, you're going to swap political dishonesty for outright pirates?:wink:

I like it, it's rather "retro":becky:


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## huntelk

Hutnicks said:


> So, in essence, you're going to swap political dishonesty for outright pirates?:wink:
> 
> I like it, it's rather "retro":becky:




AAARRRRR Matey:fencing:


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## xmanjeff

*bhfs*

if we just shootem in the middle ,then we wouldnt have this 3 page post,problem solved :shade:


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## swerve

xmanjeff said:


> if we just shootem in the middle ,then we wouldnt have this 3 page post,problem solved :shade:


You haven't got to complicated yet, but you will.


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## huntelk

xmanjeff said:


> if we just shootem in the middle ,then we wouldnt have this 3 page post,problem solved :shade:


Man, I wish I would have thought of that:icon_1_lol:


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## dncx

Brian,i shoot the class just because i enjoy shooting pins.Scopes scare me !!!!
nelson


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## WV Has Been

dncx said:


> Brian,i shoot the class just because i enjoy shooting pins.Scopes scare me !!!!
> nelson


Nelson to many people take the text in this forum way to personal. 

If the shoe does not fit then no need to wear it.:wink:

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Seems to be several threads about the BHFS class floating around in this forum. 

I see it like this.

When an individual makes an effort to defend another's word then somewhere in there mind they feel uneasy about the context. Only the individual doing the defending knows why they feel uneasy.

If truth be known about the BHFS class a majority are there for reasons beyond enjoying pins. Rather right or wrong is nothing more than another persons opinion. If your offended then maybe you are in the class for reasons other than enjoying it. If you are not offended then you more then likely are in the class for the enjoyment. If your offended for other reason perhaps you should go to an anger management class.

If you are willing to blow up on this post please think hard as to why prior to posting. I mentioned no names and only pointed fingers at three types of individuals.:tongue:


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