# Samick opinions?



## rattus58 (Jul 9, 2007)

I'm not prejudiced.. Personally I'd stay as far away from their inexpensive stuff as I could.... and that is only because of my experience with two new bows I ordered prior to becoming a dealer for them. One creaked in a tree stand on a bear hunt when I drew it, and so I switched to a muzzleloader. I put that bow on shelf and gave the other to a friend of mine.. who has subsequently given it away and bought a bear takedown. Oh... the one on the shelf delaminated itself.

However, there is a guy from New Zealand who says he has a bunch of friends who have the takedown hunter and they ALL LOVE THEIR BOWS. So there you have it...  

Aloha..  :beer:


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## Jack NZ (Apr 7, 2006)

Yeah there's this guy from NZ,,,doesn't have a name,,,,but.
Samick is one of the most popular low to mid priced factory recurve and longbows in NZ.
I've personaly owned 4 of them,and still have my two favorites.
My SLB69 I've had 7 years,and my Verna,,,only a couple of months.
The SLB is a lower end bow,the Verna their top of the line R/D longbow.
I know 5-6 other guys that shoot either recurves or longbows by Samick,none of which have ever had any problems with them.
I do realise that Samick will make the odd dog,every bow maker does.
I've had two blow ups from well know American bow makers," but unlike some people I will never dump on their products because I know "these things do happen".
Plus I still shoot a recurve that was the replacement for one of them and it's my all time favorite recurve.
I do see some bias against Samick coming across American Archery boards,but most of it is aimed at the fact their "not American made" and to me that's not such a bad thing anyway.
My own opinion of Samick products is based soley on how I shoot them and how reliable they have been for me.
This year I've placed in the top three in every Field/3D competition I've entered,and right now I am running first equal in the NZFAA Bowhunter league series, an I see no reason why I won't win over all.
I also stand to take out the longbow section of the NZ Bowhunter nationals next week.
I won all the longbow awards at my club last year and have backed off from club comp's this year to let the young up coming guys have a go. 
If I fail to meet my aims of winning both the League series and the nationals,it won't be because of what I'm shooting.
I bought my first Samick about 15 years ago on price alone, and then found I was hunting successfully and out shooting in competition guys that had all sorts of very expensive bows,so I've stuck with them and see no reason to change.
Anyway,I like them.
:darkbeer:


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## bowsinattic (Sep 8, 2007)

Jack NZ said:


> I've personaly owned 4 of them,and still have my two favorites.
> My SLB69 I've had 7 years,and my Verna,,,only a couple of months.


I think the problems people talk about may be prety recent, Jack. Dont know how old that Verna is.



Jack NZ said:


> I do see some bias against Samick coming across American Archery boards,but most of it is aimed at the fact their "not American made" and to me that's not such a bad thing anyway.


Hm, not so sure. Italian makes don't seem hit by skeptisism like that. Lots of Americans have a problem with China thats true. But what Ive seen said is more along the lines of what Rattus is saying here.


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## Jack NZ (Apr 7, 2006)

All Rattus is saying is that he had a problem with a couple of Samick bows.
I've had the same with American bows and from what I read here on this sight,so do a lot of people.
So what's your opinion and what do you base it on ??
Please don't tell me "hear say" that's not an opinion.
My Verna is "as I said" two months old.
Samick is "Korean",,,you know the "Korean" company that makes limbs and risers for several well know American companys and shops.


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## bowsinattic (Sep 8, 2007)

Jack NZ said:


> So what's your opinion and what do you base it on ??
> Please don't tell me "hear say" that's not an opinion.


Im asking, not telling. So it not an opinion but a request for advice due to wories ignited by ... yeah... hearsay. Nothing wrong with that among consumers is there? I know some people rave about Samicks but youve got to take the writer into account. There wwere some posts on the LW implying their lower end stuff is a bit dismal and some of them from people who know their stuff imo. OTOH I'm sure you do too, Jack.

I know some Samick produce is talked of as a bit of a BW knockoff and that bothers me a bit too, though I dont know trhe truth of it. But basically its only the quality Im asking about. I dont trust gossip on the LW enough to not want a second opinion. Im certainly not beating the "made in China" drum either. I think we should keep politics out of archery all together.


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## John Millard (Aug 2, 2007)

Based on a review made by George Stout of the Samick Chiron Volcano. I bought one and was not disappointed. It is a very comfortable, nice looking, fast shooting one piece 58 inch recurve. I like it very much. Because of its value, I ordered another for a friend starting in traditional archery. The bow is disappointing, finish and workmanship suffer. It still shoots well and has survived at least 3 dry fires. Due to the variability in craftmanship, I would recommend inspection of a bow before purchase.


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## GEREP (May 6, 2003)

My experience with Samick is pretty limited but I do own a set of their Carbon Extreme BF limbs and I could not be happier. I have a set of ILF longbow limbs that are manufactured by Samick on order and they should be here in a day or two. I have heard great things but I guess you could say that the jury is still out on those...I'll let you know.

My local pro shop carries some of the Samick line and I have shot a few of them. I was pretty impressed with the "Deerslayer." Smooth, grip felt good to me and it was adequately fast. I think it would be a decent bow, especially if you take into consideration what he was asking for it. I also shot the one that has the limbs mounted to the back of the riser, I don't remember the model name and I wasn't too impressed with that one. It seemed to stack a little even at my just under 28" draw length and for me, there seemed to be quite a bit of handshock. I shot one of their longbows and it felt like I needed joint replacement afterwords, but then again most one piece longbows give me that feeling so, take that for what it's worth. Funny thing is, the owner of the shop was shooting one of the longbows and he liked it. To each his own I guess.

KPC


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## PineLander (Oct 28, 2003)

Sometimes their bows do not have the draw weight that is marked. And in most cases... it is more poundage, not less (and I'm not talking about a few pounds either). If I were looking to buy one, I would have the actual poundage checked before buying.


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## GEREP (May 6, 2003)

PL:

Maybe that's why that one (I think it's a Hawkeye) seemed to stack for me. It was probably substantially heavier than marked. I never bothered to put it on the scale.

KPC


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## bowsinattic (Sep 8, 2007)

GEREP said:


> Maybe that's why that one (I think it's a Hawkeye) seemed to stack for me. It was probably substantially heavier than marked. I never bothered to put it on the scale.


My only experience with Samck gear was a pair of Oly wood/glass limbs that were 5# heavier than the markings. They were okay but not really fast. That said, they were at least 5 yrs old when I got them - defenitely korean stock and not badly made. Thats why Im curious about the newer stuff.

Strictly leaving political opinions out of thuis, Im thinking of quality now. Are ALL the ILF limbs made in Korea? What would they be like on a Warf?? And what about the more trad stuff? Ive seen a couple of wood riser that looked somwhat basic to me - not exactly a labor of love. But the prices ARE atractive.


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## kdroberts (Aug 6, 2007)

I shoot a 70", 32lb Samick mind-10, which is about as low end Samick you can get, but I'm happy with it. I've shot it with reasonable accuracy up to 60 yards in the past although recently as I've been getting back into things I've only had it up to 25 meters. It's not flash, no bells and whistles, but suits me fine right now. Wouldn't want it forever but Samick risers and limbs will be on my list to test shoot when I look at getting a heavier bow.


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## cutty (Jan 5, 2006)

Here's a fun little game for all. Guess the bow each of these Samick Wood Hunting bows is based on.


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## cutty (Jan 5, 2006)




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## cutty (Jan 5, 2006)

The first ones a gimmie-- Samick Hawkeye...

Second one is a Samick Woodsman, based on the venerable Hoyt Sky Hawk.

Third one is a Samick Spikerman. Based on the Howatt/Martin hunter.

The last one is the Verna that has been discussed above.

Samick retailers are very open about the fact these bows are based on tried and true designs. 

Here's a quote from one seller, "There bows include some reproductions of popular American designs and sell for a lot less. The bows come with written guarantees and are already well known in the US."

I find it quite interesting that I've never seen Ken Beck make a negative comment about the Hawkeye, and even most Black Widow shooters have no problem with the obvious similarities. The same can be said about Hoyt.

As for quality, I know the Tradmall sold Samick Bows for years, and there's no doubt that Rwilliams knows bows and wouldn't be selling junk.

Are they of equal quality to the originals the designs are based on? Not in my opinion, but for the price I'd say it's hard to dispute they're value.

Personally, I've shot the Verna that Jack NZ owns and I will unequivocally say it is a superior design, superior bow to the Bear Montana that is a long time favorite in the Trad community and similarly priced...actually, I believe the Verna is cheaper.

The Samick line is very popular in Australia and if you want additional reviews, info, I suggest you do a search on www.ozbow.net.

Oh, and don't forget to search for Warf bows too...there's a classic line where someone says, "Wasn't Warf a character on Star Trek?"

Another interesting and telling tidbit is PSE used to sell a Talon in their Heritage series, relabled Samick bow, with nearly a 100 % markup over the same Samick Talon sold in AUS. The bow was a poor seller here and was discontinued, but continues to have a following "Down Under."


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## palmer (Sep 23, 2003)

I own a Samick Hawkeye, Samick Verna, and an Internature Viper Deluxe. All are awesome bows that would cost you double or triple from other bow makers. The Hawkeye is a Black Widow copy, no doubt, but at 1/3 of the price, you can't beat it.

Samick seems to run a couple of pounds heavier than marked, Internature seems to run a couple of pounds lighter than marked. I don't know why.


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## moss (Jul 8, 2007)

As a newcomer to bow hunting and archery Samick have provided a cheap introduction ,2 months with a Polaris 28# ... now with a spirit ii take down 40# ... I can buy limbs to increase draw weight when Im ready.. This is the market they are aimed at .It would be foolish to rush out and buy a custom 60# bow straight away...... I guess labour charges in China and Korea are a fraction of that in USA. Having said that a bow is a work of art and a personal thing so in due course if I can afford it.... a custom bow maybe next year~~


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## Warbow (Apr 18, 2006)

cutty said:


> I find it quite interesting that I've never seen Ken Beck make a negative comment about the Hawkeye, and even most Black Widow shooters have no problem with the obvious similarities. "


Well, Black Widow folks could comment on the design aspect but not the overseas aspect now that Black Widows are no longer made in the US...still waiting for the price drop, though. Maybe I just missed it?


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## JimPic (Apr 8, 2003)

Warbow--BW's not made in the US? Where do you get your info from? I just called them and talked to Roger last week


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## cutty (Jan 5, 2006)

Lol...Warbow, tread lightly now...them Widder shooters, ain't a cabal, they're a lynch mob....


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## Landjaeger (Mar 15, 2005)

> now that Black Widows are no longer made in the US...


That's the first I've heard of that. Where are they made now?
My good friend just took delivery of a PMA and it is a very nice bow. Nicer than I expected.

I looked at a Samick Leopard at a shoot not long ago but didn't get a chance to shoot it. It seemed to be very well made and was rather attractive.

I have an older set of Agulla Ultra limbs that I used to shoot on my DAS. VERY fast, very smooth. I've shot their Extremes and they are at least as fast and even smoother. I wouldn't hesitate to buy from Samick.


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## Warbow (Apr 18, 2006)

JimPic said:


> Warbow--BW's not made in the US? Where do you get your info from? I just called them and talked to Roger last week


It is possible that I'm misinformed. This was a topic that came up on a trad board a while ago. If I'm wrong I apologize for the misinformation.

Edit:
I've been searching the Black Widow website and Google and I can't find any confirmation of where the bows are made! A cursory look at the Widow website doesn't seem to say anything about where they are made now. Is it just me or is the Widow website completely lacking in any info on where the Widows are _currently_ being made.

I like to have the correct information, even if it means admitting I was wrong. So, if anyone can update my info, please do so.


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## JimPic (Apr 8, 2003)

Contact Black Widow Bows
Phone--- (417)-725-3113 
Fax--- (417)-725-3190 


Black Widow Bows
1201 Eaglecrest
PO Box 2100
Nixa, MO 65714


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## Warbow (Apr 18, 2006)

JimPic said:


> Contact Black Widow Bows
> Phone--- (417)-725-3113
> Fax--- (417)-725-3190
> 
> ...


What? And give up my secret identity?


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## Warbow (Apr 18, 2006)

Well, this TV news video shows risers being CNC'd in the US at Black Widow.

...nothing about the limbs, though.

And yes, I could just call and ask, but that's like saying you can get venison in a supermarket. What's the fun in that?


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## GEREP (May 6, 2003)

Sorry guys but I have to laugh at this one.

:wink:

This could get good, no...REALLY good, and there ain't even a metal riser involved.



KPC


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## cutty (Jan 5, 2006)

Easy there GEREP, any combination of metal riser and Samick in the same thread triggers the top secret early warning system...makes the Feds "Carnivore" look like Pong...


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## alanraw (Feb 18, 2005)

cutty said:


> Here's a fun little game for all. Guess the bow each of these Samick Wood Hunting bows is based on.


OK-----Being the idiot I am, I'll bite

The Samick Hawkeye (why did those people at Samick have to name their bow after my fave comic book character? ) is based on the rear limb mount design of Black Widow

The Samick Woodsman is modeled after the Martin Hatfield


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## GEREP (May 6, 2003)

If you think that "other" debate can get hot, just say that Black Widows are made in China. 

ooooo baby...

Ever stuck a screwdriver in the 220?

KPC


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## alanraw (Feb 18, 2005)

cutty said:


>






The first one is based on either the Martin Hunter or the Dan Quillian Canebrake

The Samick Verna is based on either the Martin Vision or Black Widow's r/d longbow


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## LBR (Jan 1, 2004)

Habu td recurves are mounted on the belly side of the riser. Chek-Mate used to make a model that did the same. Pearson Archery had a one piece model where the limbs came off the belly side--maybe before BW started doing it. 

Point being, pretty much everything on the market is a copy of something someone else has already done.

As for the lower priced Samicks, I've only handled a few, but based on that limited experience I couldn't recommend them to anyone. Seems that the good ones are good, but quality can vary a good bit.

Chad


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## cutty (Jan 5, 2006)

Stop the presses! One of my international contacts has forwarded me the following...My German is a little rusty, but I trust his translation; and I'd say it applies directly to this thread, so I hope BowsintheAttic doesn't mind that it does mention China...if you do, Bows, I'll be glad to delete it-- but somehow I don't think you'll mind-- 

--A notice currently on the site of a European dealer: http://bogenschuetze.de/

"Da es wiederholt zu massiven Qualitätsproblemen gekommen ist,
verkaufen wir derzeit weder die Modelle Samick Talon ( Deer Slayer), Talon Hyper, Woodsmann, noch Samick Spirit II. Selbstverständlich bearbeiten wir jedoch alle Garantiefälle der von uns verkauften Bögen!" 

Translation: "Since serious quality problems have repeatedly arisen, we are currently not selling the models Samick Talon ( Deer Slayer), Talon Hyper, Woodsmann or Samick Spirit II or any limbs, recurve or longbow Of course, we are still handling warranty cases for bows we have sold."

Posters on the boards attribute this to a shift of production to China.


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## cutty (Jan 5, 2006)

A couple of other notes-- No, it wasn't Martin. Though I've stated before I find him more interesting and entertaining that quite a few posters and he's always welcome to contact me where he can.

Secondly, why in the world have things gotten to the point where people like this source, are afraid to add relevant information--

And I consider the info above to be very relevant to this threadlike the stuff--

... when it's exactly the kind of stuff we should be discussing, debating, and basing our decisions as consumers in this sport?

Isn't that a sign of what a wrong turn we've all taken in the internet world of Trad Archery over the last couple years, as more and more commercial entities introduce products and try to get their slice of the expanding Trad Pie?

By the way, this source's credentials are impeccable-- 

Given the ongoing attempt to discredit me, and portray me as biased, when no substanitive corrections have ever been made to my posts...

...I hope this addition will shed light on my true motivations, ones I've repeatedly shared...


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## rwilliams (May 29, 2005)

Some think of it as networking


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## cutty (Jan 5, 2006)

Well RWilliams, I know you have been a distributer for Samick Bows in the past. Don't think you still are presently, besides your stock on hand, but if I were a Samick distributer, I sure wouldn't consider that gossip...

...I'd have a sticky posted IMMEDIATELY...

That's called building customer trust.

Since I know you still retail low end ILF retail limbs that are now being made in China...you might want to look into some of the info I've been getting.

I'd be glad to share it with you.


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## cutty (Jan 5, 2006)

In fact, if a retailer has head even the faintest rumor that there might be problems with a product of his, I'd say it's his moral, and ethical obligation to check them out and make the info available to his customers.

There are sporting goods products that can cause severe injuries if they manfunction...


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## njstykbow (Jul 30, 2007)

I know some complaints from the Samick bows have been concerns over their finish. I had an opportunity to talk with their chief of engineering a few months ago about these bows. They know their finish is not up to the quality they are capable of and intend to address it. The few issues I've seen were incomplete coverage with the poly coat. I was told the bows would receive multiple coats of finish in the future. As for a time frame when that will take place, I don't have one. 

I think they're a pretty good value...may not be what a guy looking for a $1,000 custom will be satisfied with, but that's also not the market they're aiming for. I recently purchased a Samick Leopard for my wife and couldn't be happier with it. That bow new, cost about what I would have paid for a decent quality (I hope) used bow.

Many tastes=many bows. Everyone can find one that suits them.


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## rwilliams (May 29, 2005)

Cutty, if you repeat stuff you hear without knowing whether it's true or not or caring whether it's true or not, it's gossip and could easily be considered malicious gossip. While I admire your dillgence in seeking out all the latest "news" to share with everyone, I think it would be good to make sure you're not passing off (bad, false, misleading) information just for the sake of personal entertainment or being the "go to guy" for the latest juicy scandals real or imagined.

If I have any good reason to believe there's a problem with a product, I simply won't sell it. That makes it easy for me and my customers both. 

p.s. I don't think Black Widow bows are made anywhere but in the US, but if you have any doubts, I think it would be best for anyone who might be inclined to ask Black Widow first before posting something like "HOLD THE PRESSES - BLACK WIDOW MADE IN CHINA". It's fun to break juicy scandalous news but we sacrifice our integrity and honesty if we don't make sure it's true, at least, before cranking up the rumor mill.


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## Warbow (Apr 18, 2006)

rwilliams said:


> Cutty, if you repeat stuff you hear without knowing whether it's true or not or caring whether it's true or not, it's gossip and could easily be considered malicious gossip. While I admire your dillgence in seeking out all the latest "news" to share with everyone, I think it would be good to make sure you're not passing off (bad, false, misleading) information just for the sake of personal entertainment or being the "go to guy" for the latest juicy scandals real or imagined.
> 
> If I have any good reason to believe there's a problem with a product, I simply won't sell it. That makes it easy for me and my customers both.
> 
> p.s. I don't think Black Widow bows are made anywhere but in the US, but if you have any doubts, I think it would be best for anyone who might be inclined to ask Black Widow first before posting something like "HOLD THE PRESSES - BLACK WIDOW MADE IN CHINA". It's fun to break juicy scandalous news but we sacrifice our integrity and honesty if we don't make sure it's true, at least, before cranking up the rumor mill.


I think I find myself somewhere inbetween you and cutty. I think the idea that you would be obligated to share the "faintest rumor" is a bit much, but I also think your idea that you say nothing but simply don't carry the product is too much in the opposite direction. When it comes to my interests as a consumer as opposed to yours as a retailer, I'd like more information (accurate information) not less. Silence doesn't help me make informed decisions, nor does wild speculation. So, somewhere inbetween there is a middle ground with relevant facts. So far, this thread has some speculation but I think also some facts, and a discussion as to which is which.

I try to be factual. I admit that I'm the one who posited that BW bows are made overseas in this thread. I did not post it in all caps as you have mockingly reposed the idea. However, I'm also the kind of person who seeks to set the record straight where possible. I wonder if you will do the same if you find out they are made overseas? Or will you just stay silent as you suggest is your way?

There is no statement that I can find on BW bows that says they are made in the USA nor is there a statement that they aren't. If they are made in the USA it would seem rather dumb not to proudly point it out in nice big print. 

I thought I'd remembered that the shipment of BW production overseas as being a done deal with much discussion at the time, but I may be wrong. I must admit that my generally non-confrontational nature (a contradiction with my logical and argumentative side) does not immediately warm to the idea of calling up BW and just asking outright, but I can see that might be necessary. I was hoping that someone who's knowledgeable might chime in with some additional details.


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## PineLander (Oct 28, 2003)

Warbow, if someone chooses not to sell a product because they are aware of a problem.... there should be no reason that they should provide information on a product they do not sell.

I don't think the ALL CAPS headline that was referenced had anything to do with your previous post, but rather about "others" going to another board and parroting the same thing that's being discussed here. There are some folks here who tend to use conversations and topics from other boards as discussion fare on their own archery board.


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## tuffshot (Jan 3, 2004)

Warbow said:


> I try to be factual. I admit that I'm the one who posited that BW bows are made overseas in this thread. I did not post it in all caps as you have mockingly reposed the idea. However, I'm also the kind of person who seeks to set the record straight where possible. I wonder if you will do the same if you find out they are made overseas? Or will you just stay silent as you suggest is your way?
> 
> There is no statement that I can find on BW bows that says they are made in the USA nor is there a statement that they aren't. If they are made in the USA it would seem rather dumb not to proudly point it out in nice big print.
> 
> I thought I'd remembered that the shipment of BW production overseas as being a done deal with much discussion at the time, but I may be wrong. I must admit that my generally non-confrontational nature (a contradiction with my logical and argumentative side) does not immediately warm to the idea of calling up BW and just asking outright, but I can see that might be necessary. I was hoping that someone who's knowledgeable might chime in with some additional details.


*Black Widow Custom Bows*
1201 Eaglecrest
P.O. Box 2100
Nixa, MO 65714
->*U.S.A.*<-

Phone: 417-725-3113

Website: www.blackwidowbows.com


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## cutty (Jan 5, 2006)

Rwilliams, again...name me one time I've been wrong about any factual item I've posted...

Last I checked, you were still selling the product I referred has potential problems.

If you know about the potential problems, and are just hoping for the best, because of potential sponsor conflict, I'd say that's not only unethical, but legally actionable.


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## Hutnicks (Feb 9, 2006)

Warbow said:


> I think I find myself somewhere inbetween you and cutty. I think the idea that you would be obligated to share the "faintest rumor" is a bit much, but I also think your idea that you say nothing but simply don't carry the product is too much in the opposite direction. When it comes to my interests as a consumer as opposed to yours as a retailer, I'd like more information (accurate information) not less. Silence doesn't help me make informed decisions, nor does wild speculation. So, somewhere inbetween there is a middle ground with relevant facts. So far, this thread has some speculation but I think also some facts, and a discussion as to which is which.
> 
> I try to be factual. I admit that I'm the one who posited that BW bows are made overseas in this thread. I did not post it in all caps as you have mockingly reposed the idea. However, I'm also the kind of person who seeks to set the record straight where possible. I wonder if you will do the same if you find out they are made overseas? Or will you just stay silent as you suggest is your way?
> 
> ...


I'd like to see a thread in general listing manufacturers countries of origin with CONFIRMED sources.

Speculation is one thing but when it comes to an Icon like Black Widow, the results if untrue could be disasterous. I am a firm believer in quoting source. There is a ceratain optics manufacturer I have been trying to find country of origin on and all they will tell me is they are an "American company". that essentially tells me where they pay their taxes and nothing else.

So call em up Warbow! If they answer Brack Ridow, you have yer answer


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## Dsturgisjr (Aug 20, 2004)

I don't know anything about the wood risered Samick bows, but I know for a fact that all Black Widow bows, limbs and risers are made in Nixa, MO USA and have been for 50 years.

There was a rumor/lie going around a couple years ago that they were made in Mexico. The only source I found repeating it was another custom bowyer who shut up when he was called a liar.


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## [email protected] (Oct 17, 2003)

*Samick's Quality on Trad. Bows*

As someone with an intimate knowledge of what Samick is currently doing in traditional archery, I can assure you that improving the quality in every facet of making the bows is JOB 1 right now. They are very committed to making traditional bows that are as good and as respected as their olympic target recurves are. Final Sanding and finish are areas that have already improved greatly in recent weeks. Limb tips, string groove and limb notches are their current focus areas right now. The bows they are building are getting much better every week... They were extremely impressed and humbled during their trip to the US for the Denton Hill ETAR shoot in August when they had the opportunity to look at the bows made here in the USA... They are not going to copy anything they saw here other than to raise the bar for the quality that they know is expected of them. The previous BW/Hawkeye and Sky/Woodsman copies were a result of Eric Hall at AIM sending them bows and requesting that they copy them for him. Samick is extremely talented and does not have to copy anyone; I have asked them not to produce anything in a bow that could be considered or even recognized as being similar to anyone elses bow or design. They have the utmost respect for the work of the custom bowyers who they met and saw they appreciate the meticulous work that our USA bowyers put into their works of shooting art...

Samick has always been great to work with on any warranty issue and we will certainly assist anyone who may have an issue with their bows. 

If anyone would like to contact Samick of North America; Contact Tae Choe at [email protected] 

Thanks,
Rob


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## rattus58 (Jul 9, 2007)

Limbs delaminated on both sides, both limbs. Picture of the riser which is probably the best part of the bow in that for my hands it has a fairly comfortable grip.

I've had many bow failures with browning, bear and martin, mostly.. all do to my overdrawing the bow... in MY OPINION. This bow took itself apart.

Aloha... Tom :beer:


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## rattus58 (Jul 9, 2007)

[email protected] said:


> Samick has always been great to work with on any warranty issue and we will certainly assist anyone who may have an issue with their bows.
> 
> If anyone would like to contact Samick of North America; Contact Tae Choe at [email protected] Thanks, Rob



We shall see then.... not that I really expect anything actually... I've written both of the Samicks I've had off to "you get what you pay for" but maybe they'll trade for a longbow of some kind.

I appreciate your enthusiasm for Samick, I've had the same for other manufacturers myself.. some with bows and some with muzzleloaders but the two bows I originally purchased from Samick/AIM were... well here you see it..

Aloha.. :beer:


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## cutty (Jan 5, 2006)

Warbow, just wanted to clarify my position because I believe it's exactly like yours. 

What I posed above, wasn't just a "faint rumor," it's about as open an acknowledgement as you'll find. Plus, the source of the information is someone I trust as much as anyone I've met in the world of Trad Archery. 

Usually by the time something hits the boards, it's been floating around the archery community for weeks.

If retailer is ignoring a rumor of safety issues by the time it's hit public archery boards, most of the time he's already heard that rumor repeated many times over. To ignore a rumor at that point, or to adopt a "head in the sand" posture towards it, is wrong. 

If the retailer is also an archery board owner, it's also wrong, in my opinion, not to make the potential safety issue known to the members of his board. Seems like that's the least he could do.


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## Jack NZ (Apr 7, 2006)

bowsinattic said:


> Im asking, not telling. So it not an opinion but a request for advice due to wories ignited by ... yeah... hearsay. Nothing wrong with that among consumers is there? I know some people rave about Samicks but youve got to take the writer into account. There wwere some posts on the LW implying their lower end stuff is a bit dismal and some of them from people who know their stuff imo. OTOH I'm sure you do too, Jack.
> 
> I know some Samick produce is talked of as a bit of a BW knockoff and that bothers me a bit too, though I dont know trhe truth of it. But basically its only the quality Im asking about. I dont trust gossip on the LW enough to not want a second opinion. Im certainly not beating the "made in China" drum either. I think we should keep politics out of archery all together.


Fair enough,sorry if I got a bit carried away with myself.


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## Warbow (Apr 18, 2006)

PineLander said:


> Warbow, if someone chooses not to sell a product because they are aware of a problem.... there should be no reason that they should provide information on a product they do not sell.


I didn't mean to suggest that retailers must publish details of why they choose not to carry certain products. My response had to do with what seemed to me to be a policy of silence about known issues with bows as a general policy. To my mind, RWilliams was almost implying that bad things about bows should be kept secret and that nobody should talk about them. He mocks this thread as gossip, which it is to some extent, but further seems to deny that it may have any reasonable truth divining purpose. I disagree with that proposition.



tuffshot said:


> *Black Widow Custom Bows*
> 1201 Eaglecrest
> P.O. Box 2100
> Nixa, MO 65714
> ->*U.S.A.*<-


Tuffshot, you perhaps have not been reading my posts closely. I have already posted a link to a 2007 TV news piece showing BW TD risers being CNC'd in the US.

The question is not whether BW is a US based company but if they are farming out any of their work overseas. So far, in spite of some apparent indigence for my belief that may be so, nobody in this thread has proven that BW bows are not made overseas or shown any evidence either way (their business address doesn't tell you where all the parts are made). Frankly I'd expect RWilliams to know off the top of his head if it was the case or not, but he doesn't. Nor has anybody explained why it would be such a horror if they did, especially considering that Korea produces many world-class OR bows.

My point when I mentioned my belief that BW had sent production overseas was that prices never came down, so cost savings were not immediately passed along to consumers--a point which would be significant if BW has farmed BW bows overseas given the fairly high pricepoint of BW bows. No matter what, nobody is disputing that BW bows are fine shooters regardless of where they are made.


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## Warbow (Apr 18, 2006)

Dsturgisjr said:


> I don't know anything about the wood risered Samick bows, but I know for a fact that all Black Widow bows, limbs and risers are made in Nixa, MO USA and have been for 50 years.
> 
> There was a rumor/lie going around a couple years ago that they were made in Mexico. The only source I found repeating it was another custom bowyer who shut up when he was called a liar.


I missed this post before I made my last post. Thanks for chiming in. 

If all Black Widows are made in the USA why doesn't it say so on their website? I've searched the internet and have been unable to find any mention of where these bows are made except for a TV News video which didn't say anything specific and merely showed TD risers being CNC'd.

JMO, but if BW are made in the USA then BW should proudly post that on their website. They would have a much better claim to it than a certain distributor which proudly proclaims "[blank] is a USA company" even though that company only sells imported products. Of course, I don't think that foreign products are bad but I do think we should be able to know the country of origin before we make a purchase.


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## rwilliams (May 29, 2005)

cutty said:


> If the retailer is also an archery board owner, it's also wrong, in my opinion, not to make the potential safety issue known to the members of his board. Seems like that's the least he could do.


Sounds like a cheap shot to me, personally, since I'm the "board owner" who also sells archery equipment you are issuing your not-so-thinly-veiled character assasination, but I've come to expect that from you cutty. But to respond to your personal attack, anyway. None of the bows on the list you got from that quote sent to you by a friend who got it from a friend who got it from a friend that lives in Germany and did the translation are being sold on my site, so you are, in fact mistaken. 

So now you can apologize and move on to denounce anyone else selling these bows and posting on websites but failing to remark on or remove from stock what you now insist are "bows with potential safety issues". But of course, that's only if you really are so concerned about archery consumers everywhere and retailers not making consumers aware of what you now have determined to be "safety issues" with bows.

We both know that someone who already posted in this thread sells a LOT of these bows and carries a whole lot more Samick equipment than I do, but I haven't heard you attempt a character assasination on that distributor. Why are you so selective in who you target in your "consumer awareness campaign"?


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## GEREP (May 6, 2003)

rwilliams and all:

I am the one that posted "HOLD THE PRESSES - BLACK WIDOW MADE IN CHINA" on another forum. I think it is also disingenuous to imply that something OBVIOUSLY posted in jest is somehow serious and trying to "crank up the rumor mill.

If you or anyone had read the rest of the post they would have realized that I was most certainly joking as per my reference to Nostadamus, including the "smiley face." The reference to Nostradamus was supposed to imply that the end of days is near. 

Here is the post in it's entirety:


*75.126.80.18/vb/showthread.php?t=556207

Didn't Nostradamus predict something like this?*



*KPC *

I no more believe that BW is making bows in China than I do that Nostadamus would have made a prediction about it.

Are we wrapped so tightly lately that we can't even laugh about anything?

Let's get out of the "looking for arguments" realm and get back to having fun.

KPC


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## Martin F. (Sep 12, 2007)

cutty said:


> "Da es wiederholt zu massiven Qualitätsproblemen gekommen ist, verkaufen wir derzeit weder die Modelle Samick Talon ( Deer Slayer), Talon Hyper, Woodsmann, noch Samick Spirit II. Selbstverständlich bearbeiten wir jedoch alle Garantiefälle der von uns verkauften Bögen!"
> 
> Translation: "Since serious quality problems have repeatedly arisen, we are currently not selling the models Samick Talon ( Deer Slayer), Talon Hyper, Woodsmann or Samick Spirit II or any limbs, recurve or longbow Of course, we are still handling warranty cases for bows we have sold."


This is Martin Farrent.

Yes, I'm normally blocked from posting here, by the looks of things (I received a "refraction worth 1 point" for masking an expletive). Yes, I'm probably breaking forum rules by re-registering under a new handle.

*However: It seems to me that this is necessary, because both RWilliams and [email protected] - and more broadly, Samick - are liable as dealers to suffer from the effects of what is only a false translation.*

My German is very good. Cutty describes his German as "rusty". But even rusty German should suffice to detect the following two points:


1) The original German text only cites four specific bows. There is no mention of "or any limbs, recurve or longbow."


2) Neither the German text nor even the faulty translation mentions "safety issues", as Cutty does. Rather it only speaks of "serious quality problems" - which could easily refer to the finish.

Though I might be personally hesitant to buy Samick equipment given this information, and especially the bows mentioned, I would definitely contact the German dealer involved to find out which quality issues he refers to before using this notice to talk of "safety issues" in public.

I thank Cutty for at least noting that I am not the source of this misinformation. Others have been abusing my name pretty freely on this board.

But I would like to point out that his research is, once again, not very meticulous.

Best,

Martin


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## PineLander (Oct 28, 2003)

cutty said:


> Rwilliams, again...name me one time I've been wrong about any factual item I've posted...
> 
> Last I checked, you were still selling the product I referred has potential problems.
> 
> If you know about the potential problems, and are just hoping for the best, because of potential sponsor conflict, I'd say that's not only unethical, but legally actionable.


Cutty, apparently you are saying that not only RWilliams, but also [email protected] (Lancaster Archery), and dozens of other retailers who sell Samick bows.... are unethical and legally actionable in their business practices.



rwilliams said:


> Why are you so selective in who you target in your "consumer awareness campaign"?


Good question, I would like to hear the answer to that as well.....

before a Moderator comes along shortly to lock this thread, remove Cutty's comments, or ban him completely.


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## rwilliams (May 29, 2005)

GEREP, I wasn't talking to you or about you. I was responding to cutty's personal attack and the general speculation we've seen in this thread that maybe Black Widows are made in China, too. In my opinion that's something that shouldn't be stated without proof, funny as you think it might be.


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## Martin F. (Sep 12, 2007)

Martin F. said:


> I thank Cutty for at least noting that I am not the source of this misinformation. Others have been abusing my name pretty freely on this board.
> 
> But I would like to point out that his research is, once again, not very meticulous.


It seems that Cutty/Atlantis can no longer decide whether he prefers shilling or bashing... and that the lure of bashing TT owner RWilliams was stronger than his documented enthusiasm for the TradTech line of produce from LAS - some of which is produced by Samick, I believe. 

This is how he comments this thread on another board. Guess which one.



> "Keep reading...lol...it gets better...
> 
> ...someone steps on a landmine..."


I think he meant Robert (RWilliams). 

_He owes both RWilliams and [email protected] an apology. And yes, I think he's a liability to any archery board that allows him to post._

May I also remind people of my recent, no longer visible comments on posters with an agenda? And might I urge the moderators to let me continue posting under this new handle?

Best,

Martin


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## Landjaeger (Mar 15, 2005)

Here's my take. Samick is one of the premier archery manufacturers in the world. (isn't archery the national pastime in Korea?) However, "traditional" equipment has not been their main focus. They have concentrated their efforts on FITA gear and it shows. The US traditional market seems to be a relatively small one. Here in the USA compounds are where the money is at. Throughout Europe the money seems to be in FITA. (these are just my impressions, not backed up by any facts or figures)
However the US traditional market seems to be expanding. Rob at LAS has developed a great working relationship with Samick and is working to bring their traditional line up to what we here in the US expect it should be. Bravo Rob!!!!! Seems like a win for everyone.

I would be VERY surprised to find out that Black Widow has outsourced any of their manufacturing but if you have proof that they are, I'd love to see it. Let us know what you find out after you are done talking with them Warbow. If you don't intend to follow up please drop it.

Rwilliams, cutty targets you because it gets under your skin and you open yourself up to it. In my opinion your self proclaimed jihad against certain people has only lowered your credibility amoung this very small tradional archery internet community. Please stop. 

You know guys, this is a big site. I think they'd survive just fine without a Traditional forum. Something to think about .


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## DAS (May 12, 2006)

*landmines*

People wouldn't be stepping on "landmines" if these groups weren't working 24/7 to lay them out. I'd like to know when it became law that a retailer was required to issue a consumer alert based on a fuzzy translation of a german website rumor recounted by an individual who deals loosely with facts at best??? I'd also like to know why RWilliams is particularly liable, even though he doesn't even carry those models. I would assume your comments would include EVERY Samick dealer, unless of course you have a particular agenda here.


If there were a problem with a Samick product, Samick would be the first to issue a recall don't you think? What motivation would Samick have to risk ruining their reputation over something like that?? 


Isn't there a web forum somewhere dedicated solely to character assassination, where folks can go and do all this dirty work? It would sure be nice if we could get away from all that here.


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## rwilliams (May 29, 2005)

Landjaeger said:


> Rwilliams, cutty targets you because it gets under your skin and you open yourself up to it. In my opinion your self proclaimed jihad against certain people has only lowered your credibility amoung this very small tradional archery internet community. Please stop.


If cutty was targeting you, I think it would get under your skin, too. I'm sorry to hear that you feel my defense against cutty's personal attacks lowers my credibility and I think you care less about my credibility than in supporting cutty's personal attacks. I find it quite odd that you consider me to be responsible for cutty's behavior and seem to hold cutty quite harmless despite the fact that even you, one of cutty's comrades, know he "targets" me and others.

In my opinion, your remarks about a "self proclaimed jihad" against "certain people" lowering my "credibility" reeks of defamation rather than any attempt to improve a situation, so next time you feel the urge to issue another defamatory opinion about me, PLEASE STOP.

I don't see how letting cutty's incessant attempts at character assasination go unhallenged will make everything all better. I think cutty refraining from character assasination attempts would be a big step in the right direction, though.


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## Warbow (Apr 18, 2006)

Landjaeger said:


> I would be VERY surprised to find out that Black Widow has outsourced any of their manufacturing but if you have proof that they are, I'd love to see it. Let us know what you find out after you are done talking with them Warbow. If you don't intend to follow up please drop it.


No I don't have proof. I've been very clear on that point once someone questioned if I had the right info. I certainly thought I did and I think I'm being rather forthright in my statements.

Right now, I have what I thought was true, a statement by a credible source that I was wrong ( Dsturgisjr ) and a lot of people up at arms who actually _don't know any more than I do_!!! So, please be patient. I'm being honest and upfront. I'd hope other people can do the same.

If BW just proudly stated on their website that their bows are made in the US I could have searched this and cleared it up sooner.


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## Landjaeger (Mar 15, 2005)

Robert, I have replied in a PM. No need to further clutter up the forum. I should have done that in the first place. Sorry moderators!


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## rwilliams (May 29, 2005)

Thank you. That's better.


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

This is about as entertaining as watching a bunch of Jedi squirrels duking it out :wink:

Ray :wink:


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## alanraw (Feb 18, 2005)

Hey------what happened to Martin?


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## alanraw (Feb 18, 2005)

BLACK WOLF said:


> This is about as entertaining as watching a bunch of Jedi squirrels duking it out :wink:
> 
> Ray :wink:


Actually Ray, I would _gladly_ pay to see that! :wink:


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## Hutnicks (Feb 9, 2006)

Warbow said:


> I missed this post before I made my last post. Thanks for chiming in.
> 
> If all Black Widows are made in the USA why doesn't it say so on their website? I've searched the internet and have been unable to find any mention of where these bows are made except for a TV News video which didn't say anything specific and merely showed TD risers being CNC'd.
> 
> JMO, but if BW are made in the USA then BW should proudly post that on their website. They would have a much better claim to it than a certain distributor which proudly proclaims "[blank] is a USA company" even though that company only sells imported products. Of course, I don't think that foreign products are bad but I do think we should be able to know the country of origin before we make a purchase.


Man is that ever a sign of the times. Moving manufacturing becoming so prevalent that a company which has never had to explain its origins is now suspect. Something about this really does not sit well with me.


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## Warbow (Apr 18, 2006)

Hutnicks said:


> Man is that ever a sign of the times. Moving manufacturing becoming so prevalent that a company which has never had to explain its origins is now suspect. Something about this really does not sit well with me.


I must say that if I'm to be involved in a controversial post or thread I want to do so on purpose, not by accident which is what happened here.

Let me recap since people often don't bother to read the thread before jumping in:
Earlier I said:


Warbow said:


> Well, Black Widow folks could comment on the design aspect but not the overseas aspect now that Black Widows are no longer made in the US...still waiting for the price drop, though. Maybe I just missed it?


Then JimPic said


JimPic said:


> Warbow--BW's not made in the US? Where do you get your info from? I just called them and talked to Roger last week


I immediately wrote:


Warbow said:


> It is possible that I'm misinformed. This was a topic that came up on a trad board a while ago. If I'm wrong I apologize for the misinformation.


Dsturgisjr wrote:


> I don't know anything about the wood risered Samick bows, but I know for a fact that all Black Widow bows, limbs and risers are made in Nixa, MO USA and have been for 50 years.


The reason that said that BW should proudly post they are made in the USA if they are is two fold. One, **pride**. Two, once JimPic questioned me I tried to be responsible and research the topic of where the BW bows are made by searching the BW website and using Google to scour the internet. I could not find a definitive answer, which I found pretty darn frustrating. It should have been an easy search but it isn't. Try it yourself if you doubt me.

Is BW obligated to proudly proclaim "All custom bows made in the USA?" No. But why the heck wouldn't you want to? _Especially_ if so much manufactoring is moving overseas. Being made in the US is a way to further differentiate you product from some of the competition. 

BTW, please note that at no time in this thread have I denigrated the quality of BW bows--so don't claim that I have in any way slandered BW in that regard.


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## IGluIt4U (Sep 22, 2004)

Ok, it is apparent that this thread will not resolve the question being asked, and all I see is continued attacks towards members, which is not justified here.

I am, therefore, going to ask one last time to remain respectful in your posts, state facts, not conjecture if you actually have something to offer of value here, otherwise we will end this discussion.

Thanks,

Sticky....
AT Moderator


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## Hutnicks (Feb 9, 2006)

OKAY SPORTS FANS. How about when a SIGNIFICANT new topic appears in a thead, spawning a new thread and inserting a link to it in the post (I have seen it work well elsewhere). We can then let the original thread continue on in its native state I was really enjoying the Samick opinions there for a while.


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## Warbow (Apr 18, 2006)

Hutnicks said:


> OKAY SPORTS FANS. How about when a SIGNIFICANT new topic appears in a thead, spawning a new thread and inserting a link to it in the post (I have seen it work well elsewhere). We can then let the original thread continue on in its native state I was really enjoying the Samick opinions there for a while.


That certainly is a possibility. In some forums the mods will do that automatically when they detect a distinct threadjack.

I also think the problem is one of respect as opposed to problems with conjecture. If we were to eliminate conjecture then AT might as well fold up right this minute. Facts are only "facts" until they are refuted. Conjecture is only conjecture until is proven to be right or wrong.

Me, personally, I'm stubborn and I have a rather high threshold of proof, so when opposed with contrary information it may take a while for me to be made certain. And even then, certainty is subject to change. I was fairly certain of my information otherwise I wouldn't have mentioned it in the first place. Now that info is in doubt.

So, as long as people are being honest and sincere I think locking a thread solely because it contains "conjecture" would be very problematic.


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## Stykshooter (Aug 2, 2007)

We have a traditional archery group here locally that consists of approximately 50 members now. We have had a lot of "friends of friends" or other new comers who have expressed an interest in converting from the compound or otherwise getting involved in traditional archery. We are very receptive and of course loan equipment out and help these poeple to get their start. It doesn't take long until they are hooked and want to purchase a bow of their own. None of them want to drop $1,000.00 on a new custom bow or deal with the wait of getting one in. They are very reluctant to even spend $500.00 on a good used bow. Last year we got a couple of guys started out with a Deer Master. This is a three piece takedown recurve that has clear glass on the limbs and is fast flight capable. It can be purchased for right at $200.00. The whole club was so impressed with the bows that we now have 8 of them amongst us. The fit and finish of these bows isn't up to that of my Robertsons, Hummingbirds or other bows but neither is the price. The Deer Master is an inexpensive recurve that is fast, quiet and forgiving. A couple of the guys shot the bows for a couple of months and have since passed them on to other archers and moved up to more expensive bows. I picked one up for myself as a bow fishing bow that I didn't mind if it got a couple nicks in it and have picked up a one piece Spikeman for one of my sons to shoot. Performance wise you are giving up very little with at least these models of Samick bows which I am familiar with. 

For someone looking to get started out in traditional archery you would be hard pressed to find a better value, especially for someone who didn't want to invest too much cash until they found out if they were going to like it or not. Same goes for an archer who is looking for a good back up bow or as I did and utilize it as a bowfishing bow. One of our guys has a hunting cabin several hours away. He picked up a deer master to leave there so he would always have something to stump shoot or practice with when there and he would have to worry about someone stealing one of his Assenheimers. The club is considering buying a 40 pounder and making up a set of arrows just to have a "loaner" bow to help new guys get started.

As far as quality goes...I have seen and shot at least a dozen different Samicks which have been purchased over the past year. Fit and finish has definitely improved over that period of time and I believe each bow is better then the one before it. They aren't ever going to make you want to give up your Morrison or 'Widow, but then again, they aren't designed for that market.


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## Hutnicks (Feb 9, 2006)

Warbow said:


> That certainly is a possibility. In some forums the mods will do that automatically when they detect a distinct threadjack.
> 
> I also think the problem is one of respect as opposed to problems with conjecture. If we were to eliminate conjecture then AT might as well fold up right this minute. Facts are only "facts" until they are refuted. Conjecture is only conjecture until is proven to be right or wrong.
> 
> ...


The problem in any forum is that anyone can offer up any conjecture they wish. Without posted corroborated proof it means very little. While I enjoy the "Somebody bought Bowtech" type posts as much as the next guy, I still take it as pure hearsay until someone from the company posts or until there is a link to some confirmation. I am pretty obstinate myself on these issues and the one of foreign manufacture is particularly sensitive to me. There are in fact countries that I would not buy from if I had the choice, and therefore I require "foot on body" type proof before I'm a believer.

Secondly rumors spread like wildfire on the web, and while I think most corporations are big boys and can fend for themselves. A company with a long hard won reputation can be cast into doubt for no other reason than some unknown entity threw out idle unsubstantiated conjecture. A company should not be put in a position to defend against something which did not happen.

Thirdly fair is fair and if someone is trying to "pull the wool" and hide the moving of manufacturing, I'll be the first to put em up against the wall.

I live in Canada and you do not bring _*anything*_ into this country without it being clearly marked as to where it was produced so perhaps I have been sheltered as to manufacturers pulling shenanigans:embara:


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## Warbow (Apr 18, 2006)

Hutnicks said:


> The problem in any forum is that anyone can offer up any conjecture they wish. Without posted corroborated proof it means very little. While I enjoy the "Somebody bought Bowtech" type posts as much as the next guy, I still take it as pure hearsay until someone from the company posts or until there is a link to some confirmation. I am pretty obstinate myself on these issues and the one of foreign manufacture is particularly sensitive to me. There are in fact countries that I would not buy from if I had the choice, and therefore I require "foot on body" type proof before I'm a believer.
> 
> Secondly rumors spread like wildfire on the web, and while I think most corporations are big boys and can fend for themselves. A company with a long hard won reputation can be cast into doubt for no other reason than some unknown entity threw out idle unsubstantiated conjecture. A company should not be put in a position to defend against something which did not happen.
> 
> ...


Well, I was trying to qualify my statement with "So, as long as people are being honest and sincere."

I suppose I should have added "and being relatively responsible..."

I believe that I have and am still living up to those qualifications.

Note that I have not stated that BW is trying to "pull the wool" over anyone. I have stated that if they make their custom bows entirely in the US, as Dsturgisjr says the certainly so, that it seems odd that they don't proudly proclaim that to be the case and that it is very odd that it is so hard to find a clear and unimpeachable statement on the web as to where the bows are made.

Dsturgisjr says they are entirely made in the US. That certainly makes me doubt my earlier belief and what I said earlier certainly is hearsay (double or triple hearsay, more likely), but it does seem an odd circumstance that this isn't easier too look up. While they are under no obligation to do so, I think BW would benefit by proudly stating where their bows are made, presumably in the Ozarks, and specifically Nixa, MO. Why they don't remains a mystery to me.

You are right to doubt my earlier belief and, indeed, it has been cast into doubt in my mind as well. I using similar principles to the ones you posit also want definitive proof. I currently hold that I don't know what the truth is on this matter. We are both holding on to our current belief (in my current case, no firm conclusion either way but leaning towards my being initially wrong) until our standard of proof is met. So, ironically we are in much the same position but with differing default beliefs. I would also like a company to confirm this, though they are under no obligation to do so, so that I might definitively know the answer (though even definitive answers can be subject to change.) In this we are no different.

Second, as to "ruining" the rep of a company, I repeat that I have never denigrated the quality of BW bows in this thread--though you might be referring obliquely to others and their comments about other manufacturers even though you quoted me. Nor would I consider outsourcing to necessarily be a sign of lower quality. Indeed, it might actually allow higher quality for the same price due to lower production costs. So, I think, ironically, it is not I, in any way, who is denigrating BW other than to make fun of their much talked about high prices, though, I think, I am using too many commas...

As to marking country of origin on manufactured imported goods, that is the law in the US as well, though the country of origin markings are often in the form of stickers that don't always manage to stay on the products when sold through some retail channels in spite of the law. Curiously, I do not think companies are under obligation to tell you where products are made when they advertise them or sell them, which, to my mind, reduces the utility of country of origin labeling.


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