# Shooting in the wind.



## Stash (Jun 1, 2002)

NOVABB said:


> It was suggested that I had too much weight on the point and the nodes were causing a greater paradox which was amplified because of the wind.


Whoever said this did it with a straight face? 

No, you just need more practice in tricky winds.


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## straat (Jan 22, 2009)

These guys must have master degrees from Bull**** University


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## Viper1 (Aug 21, 2003)

N - 

The only question you have to worry about, is the wind affecting you or your arrows?
Most of the time, the former far out weighs the latter. 

Also, shooting in the wind doesn't train you to shoot in the wind, shooting in the wind with a plan for analysis and correction does.

As far as the node thing ... I think Stash and straat covered it. 

Also when you ask a question like that here, stating your average (not best) scores might get you more appropriate answers.

Viper1 out.


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## NOVABB (Feb 7, 2013)

36 arrow 290 avg


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## Viper1 (Aug 21, 2003)

N - 

It ain't the arrows, unless they are inherently unstable, and that would should up in any wind condition.
IMHO, of course.

Viper1 out.


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## SouTex (Feb 9, 2014)

As mentioned. Practice in the wind really won't help. I just wait for another day to practice.


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## fita_chick (Jan 29, 2009)

SouTex said:


> As mentioned. Practice in the wind really won't help. I just wait for another day to practice.


I beg to differ - if you practice in the wind "with a plan for analysis and correction" you can learn a great deal about how you and your equipment react to it. Then when winds come up in competition, as we all know they will, you will be more ready to analyze & correct.

If you practice in the wind just flinging arrows to say that you practice in the wind, then no it won't really help.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Stash said:


> Whoever said this did it with a straight face?
> 
> No, you just need more practice in tricky winds.


This.


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## lksseven (Mar 21, 2010)

Practicing in a steady side wind can help you learn to aim off (and stay aimed off all the way through the shot).

Practicing in a gusty swirling wind can teach you the benefit of quickening your shot process so you're not holding as long.

Shooting in the wind helps keep you from getting cocky :darkbeer:


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## dmacey (Mar 27, 2015)

Heck I'm still just trying to learn to shoot with no wind... But I've shot in the wind quite a bit over the years with my compound and my general finding there is: find the best compromise between speed and weight on the arrow. 

That's kind of vague, but the general idea is you want to get the arrow to the target as quickly as possible with the least perturbation of its flight by the wind as possible during the trip. Reason being, the less time the arrow is in flight, the less effect the wind has on its path. You also want to minimize the effect of the wind on the arrow itself, so in general, the thinner the shaft and the smaller the vanes, the less the wind will affect it. Finally, up to a point, more weight on the shaft will reduce the effects of the wind. But once the weight gets to a certain point, the slower speed/increased time for the wind to have its effect on the shaft begins to dominate the overall effect on the arrow's path.

You pilots out there will remember all this from your PPL training on the affects of winds during navigation, etc. But the idea is pretty much the same. It's a compromise to reach a minimum, limited primarily by the thickness of your wallet .

For example, on my compound setup, I shoot Easton ACE 470's with 100grain tips and AAE max vanes outdoors and my indoor setup is GT ultralight 400's, 80 grain points with 3" feathers. The overall weights of the shafts are actually almost the same (around 320-ish grains), but the ACE's group quite a bit better at 50 meters. Especially if there's a wind. Reason being, after about the 30 yard mark, the ACE's retain significantly more airspeed than the GT's do. So they get to the target faster and with less grief from the wind.

As for the FOC, I have not found that it makes that big of a difference. If you shoot bareshafts, yes, but we don't shoot bareshafts in competition so I don't pay too much attention to it. 

As for wind effects on the archer, the recurve has a huge advantage over the compound. Compounds have giant turkey platters on each end that act like giant kites in the wind, and the holding weight is a fraction of what we hold on our recurve bows. I have to pack up and go home with my compounds in winds that I can still reasonably well hold the pin on the bale with my recurve bow. 

Anyway, 98% of all this is compound experience, as I'm still just trying to learn to release an arrow period again with my recurve so wind just no longer makes a difference there at all lol. But those are some of the general principles in my experience,

DM


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## frankenarcher (Aug 18, 2015)

lksseven said:


> Shooting in the wind helps keep you from getting cocky :darkbeer:


Yup. I got my teeth kicked in by the wind on tuesday practice.


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## XForce Girl (Feb 14, 2008)

As a compound archer I find the wind effects ME and my bow more than my arrows.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

XForce Girl said:


> As a compound archer I find the wind effects ME and my bow more than my arrows.


That's everyone. But still, everyone likes to obsess over which arrows drift less.


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## grantmac (May 31, 2007)

With wind like that breaking a strong shot near the middle is going to score a whole lot better than trying to get the perfect offset and either breaking a weak shot or shooting mid gust.

The wind pattern matters as much as the speed and direction.

Grant


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## Dave_Gilbert (Aug 28, 2012)

NOVABB said:


> Yesterday it was windy (25mph) so I thought it would be a good day to practice shooting 70M in the wind. The wind was from behind me going left to right at about 30 to 45% to the target. My arrows were all over the place. I tried shooting off and would miss the bale right, aim on center and they would go left. With the slight tail wind the arrows wobbled all the way to the target. It was suggested that I had too much weight on the point and the nodes were causing a greater paradox which was amplified because of the wind. I wanted to get some thoughts on this. These shaft worked great on calm or light breeze days.
> 
> 25” riser, long limbs, 43# ONT, 28.75” AMO draw length, Carbon Express Nano SST 550 spine 28.75 nock valley to back of point, 120 grain SS point.
> 
> ...


From your stated location (Northern Virginia) I'll bet you were shooting at the Centreville IWLA. We were out shooting there around noon and the winds were nasty. The winds were both variable and swirling, very difficult to read and yet my daughter was able shoot mostly gold with 42# draw weight, 24" draw length nano pro extremes. The problem wasn't arrow drift in the wind, it was holding still, while executing the shot quickly. Most of the archers I know will tend to shoot more slowly in the wind, and that's where shots start to break down and errors creep in. The trick is to shoot your shot as if there were no wind at all. 

Tail winds will make any arrow stabilize more slowly, and i am sure that's what you perceived as poor arrow flight. i can assure you that the arrow flight you experienced is totally normal and to be expected with a strong tail wind. Your equipment should be fine in the wind and I doubt that is the problem. If you do indeed shoot at the Centreville IWLA, give me a shout and I or my daughter would be happy to give you some pointers.


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## chrstphr (Nov 23, 2005)

dmacey said:


> If you shoot bareshafts, yes, but we don't shoot bareshafts in competition so I don't pay too much attention to it. DM


Shooting bareshafts pertains exactly to your quote below....



dmacey said:


> the general idea is you want to get the arrow to the target as quickly as possible with the least perturbation of its flight by the wind as possible during the trip. Reason being, the less time the arrow is in flight, the less effect the wind has on its path. You also want to minimize the effect of the wind on the arrow itself, so in general, the thinner the shaft and the smaller the vanes, the less the wind will affect it.
> 
> DM


You shoot bare shafts and if you can get the same flight from them as fletched arrows, then the arrow itself has less hard time correcting for a bad release or effects of the wind. If your bare shaft is crazy off the bow, the you are pushing your fletchings to work much harder at correcting the arrow flight which makes it harder to correct for wind and inconsistent release. 



dmacey said:


> As for the FOC, I have not found that it makes that big of a difference. DM


FOC is everything in the wind. Everything....


Chris


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## lksseven (Mar 21, 2010)

chrstphr said:


> Shooting bareshafts pertains exactly to your quote below....
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Agree with Chris that FOC is very important in the wind. You want the arrow balance/center of pressure to be such that the arrow is trying to tack gracefully into the wind and not just getting pushed and drifted - sure, it's going to get moved some, too, but not as much as the light nosed arrow. You can watch two guys shooting the same draw weight in the wind, and one guy is having to aim off in the black, and the other guy only aiming off in the red ... over 144 arrows, being able to aim off in the red - versus in the black -is a big advantage.


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## chrstphr (Nov 23, 2005)

High enough FOC and you aim off in the yellow.

And you will watch the arrow tack in the wind as the nock drifts with wind, while the heavy point continues straight to target. 

Last weekend i was shooting with another archer. We both shooting in 30 mph winds. We both shoot about 40ish pounds. He was aiming off in the black, i was aiming in the yellow. His FOC is not great because he has a very long X0 arrow and not heavy point. We had the same groupings. He was complaining that he had to aim off in the black. 

Chris


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## Azzurri (Mar 10, 2014)

I found the tail wind situation to be a rough one for me also, lower poundage and routinely aiming off, particularly a shifty tail wind. One bad day I had in our TOTs outdoor series last year the wind was often tail but I am convinced was sometimes slightly left and sometimes slightly right, and if you're aiming off that's pushing your arrows different directions. I would do well one end and get hammered the next. Cross-wind I can at least plan on wind direction and just watch for wind level.

I get the FOC stuff but does anyone have suggestions for how to pick up on and handle a shifty tailwind? I'm even used to the feel of tailwind from having done some small boat sailing and windsurfing. I just without a sail don't necessarily catch the precise angle. Suggestions?


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## dmacey (Mar 27, 2015)

chrstphr said:


> FOC is everything in the wind. Everything....


Interesting. I've just never noticed much difference with it on my compound arrows. That may be because I tend to be a tuning nazi with my compound setups so my fletchings do as little work as possible regardless of the FOCs on any of the shafts I've used. Overall shaft weight, profile and drag have always been the items that affected my groups at distance or in the wind.

Now, with my current recurve skills and setup.... where I'm lucky to hit my bale during practice at 8 yards.....weeel, that's an entirely different calculus there 

DM


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## Mr. Roboto (Jul 13, 2012)

A compound shooting an arrow at 300 ft/s at 50m, the time of flight will be about 0.55 seconds. A recurve shooting a 200 ft/s arrow at 70m the time of flight will be 1.15 seconds. The lateral drifting due to the wind is a function of the time of flight squared. Thus a slower arrow that takes twice as long in the air will drift 4 times further than the faster arrow.


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## dmacey (Mar 27, 2015)

Yep, I'm sure it's my compound bias there. Though my setup isn't nearly 300fps, but more like 230 to 240 the last time I chrono'ed it (a PSE Supra Max at about #32 peak weight). But the physics make sense. And the last time I actually shot a recurve in competition at a competitive poundage was in the late 80's I think it was, so I'm sure my memory is faulty .

DM


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## beefstew27 (Mar 18, 2008)

Here's how to shoot in the wind. 

1) Notice that it's windy outside
2) Shoot arrows
3) realize you'd rather have a beer
4) get a beer and shoot on a different day


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## Stash (Jun 1, 2002)

Mr. Roboto said:


> The lateral drifting due to the wind is a function of the time of flight squared. Thus a slower arrow that takes twice as long in the air will drift 4 times further than the faster arrow.


I'm having a hard time believing that. Twice as long in the air is twice as much drift.


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## chrstphr (Nov 23, 2005)

Stash said:


> I'm having a hard time believing that. Twice as long in the air is twice as much drift.


Well, i can assure you my arrow at 200fps takes longer than 1.15 seconds to get to target at 70 meters. Its more like 2.5 to 3 seconds. Since my arrow doesnt go straight to target but arcs to target. 

I think the drift would be 4 times what a compound shot arrow would drift.


Chris


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## dedgemon (Feb 1, 2016)

drift = (flight time)*(cross wind component)

during the first few feet of travel the arrow will experience a sideslip angle due the cross wind component. This makes the arrow turn into the wind. The sideslip angle goes to zero as the arrow turns and is accelerated downwind. After this the arrow is just drifting downwind for the remainder of the flight.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

> That's everyone. But still, everyone likes to obsess over which arrows drift less.


Like I said...

Once again, we will obsess over equipment when it's really US that need to improve. Typical humans - always blaming the equipment to take the focus off our own shortcomings.



> Here's how to shoot in the wind.
> 
> 1) Notice that it's windy outside
> 2) Shoot arrows


That's the list. No need for #3 and 4.

When I was training seriously for the '04 and '12 trials, I would use vacation time at work to take off on windy days - just to go shoot. How many people here have done that? If you have, you are serious about learning to shoot in the wind. The result of my efforts were high finishes at the Texas Shootout and the '04 trials - both windy events. If I hadn't specifically targeted windy days for practice (and used calm wind days as my days off from shooting) I would never have done as well.


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## Stash (Jun 1, 2002)

chrstphr said:


> Well, i can assure you my arrow at 200fps takes longer than 1.15 seconds to get to target at 70 meters. Its more like 2.5 to 3 seconds. Since my arrow doesnt go straight to target but arcs to target.
> 
> I think the drift would be 4 times what a compound shot arrow would drift.
> 
> ...


4 times? Are you using fluflus? 

The arc of typical arrow flight for 70 meters straight line is something like 72 meters. Haven't done the math, but it's not any more. Initial velocity 200 fps and terminal velocity maybe 180 fps gives an average 190 fps, 72m is 236ft, so time in the air is about 1.25 seconds, tops. For a 280 fps compound time in the air is about .85 seconds. Difference on the order of 35 to 40%. Nowhere close to 4 times.


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## Mr. Roboto (Jul 13, 2012)

Stash said:


> I'm having a hard time believing that. Twice as long in the air is twice as much drift.


The wind applies a force on the arrow. Force = mass times acceleration. Acceleration = Wind Force divided by the mass of the arrow (note in the math that heavier arrows yield lower cross acceleration and thus are affected less by cross winds). Integrate acceleration with respect to time, you get the velocity = (wind force/mass)*Time. Integrate velocity with respect to time you get displacement = (wind force/mass)*Time^2. Assuming zero initial conditions, and the arrow is identical in shape and mass so that the wind force is the same on both arrows. If one arrow takes 2 times longer, the lateral drift will be (Time =2)^2=4 times longer.

Crazy isn't it


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## Mr. Roboto (Jul 13, 2012)

chrstphr said:


> Well, i can assure you my arrow at 200fps takes longer than 1.15 seconds to get to target at 70 meters. Its more like 2.5 to 3 seconds. Since my arrow doesnt go straight to target but arcs to target.
> 
> I think the drift would be 4 times what a compound shot arrow would drift.
> 
> ...


When I shoot 90m, I swear I can sit down, relax, and drink a cup of coffee by the time the arrow hits the target. My arrows only go a measly 195 ft/s.


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## lksseven (Mar 21, 2010)

The lion's share of the noticeable drift occurs in the last 10-15 yards of a 70meter shot, especially with lighter weight arrows and lighter poundages/lower initial arrow speed. The lighter slower arrows have bled off a lot more kinetic energy and speed and so the wind just 'takes them' that last 10 yards. I've watched Kathleen Stevenson shoot lights out with a 29/30lb bow in calm conditions, and then in robust wind she can have difficulty staying inside the black on many shots - you can just see the arrow act like it's folded up like a shotgunned pheasant that last 10 yards as it runs out of steam and flails. The heavier, faster propelled compound arrows are already in the target at 50meters, denying the wind the chance to really sink its fangs into the arrow that last 20 meters. 

Like John (although to less spectacular effect) I've learned to look forward to shooting on windy days. Rare is it 'no wind' on the day of competition.


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## lksseven (Mar 21, 2010)

Stash said:


> 4 times? Are you using fluflus?
> 
> The arc of typical arrow flight for 70 meters straight line is something like 72 meters. Haven't done the math, but it's not any more. Initial velocity 200 fps and terminal velocity maybe 180 fps gives an average 190 fps, 72m is 236ft, so time in the air is about 1.25 seconds, tops. For a 280 fps compound time in the air is about .85 seconds. Difference on the order of 35 to 40%. Nowhere close to 4 times.


I think the "4 times" was describing the difference in side drift, not the difference in elapsed time to target.

I agree with your general notion of 'time in flight' for 70meters - even at 140fps average, the elapsed time is around 1.65seconds.


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## Stash (Jun 1, 2002)

Mr. Roboto said:


> The wind applies a force on the arrow. Force = mass times acceleration. Acceleration = Wind Force divided by the mass of the arrow (note in the math that heavier arrows yield lower cross acceleration and thus are affected less by cross winds). Integrate acceleration with respect to time, you get the velocity = (wind force/mass)*Time. Integrate velocity with respect to time you get displacement = (wind force/mass)*Time^2. Assuming zero initial conditions, and the arrow is identical in shape and mass so that the wind force is the same on both arrows. If one arrow takes 2 times longer, the lateral drift will be (Time =2)^2=4 times longer.
> 
> Crazy isn't it


If you're going to describe the force of the wind, you need to use the mass and acceleration of the wind, not the mass and acceleration of the arrow.

Not going to debate that this late in the evening, but here's a thought experiment. Release a neutrally buoyant balloon in the wind for 1 second and measure how far it travels. Then release the same balloon for 2 seconds. You're telling me it will travel 4 times as far?


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## straat (Jan 22, 2009)

The force of the wind depends on the relative flow velocity squared. When the arrow accelerates, this goes down so the force acting on the arrow goes down as well, also non-linear. When the arrow reaches the wind velocity, the force acting on it will be zero so it will stop accelerating and maintain constant velocity.


A balloon is low in mass and high in surface area, so it will accelerate in a fraction of a second. After this initial acceleration it will move twice the distance in twice the time.

If an arrow was that slow to accelerate in the wind that the full force as presumed by mr roboto applied constantly, it would drift four times zero, so still zero


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## theminoritydude (Feb 11, 2013)

dedgemon said:


> drift = (flight time)*(cross wind component)
> 
> during the first few feet of travel the arrow will experience a sideslip angle due the cross wind component. This makes the arrow turn into the wind. The sideslip angle goes to zero as the arrow turns and is accelerated downwind. After this the arrow is just drifting downwind for the remainder of the flight.


Just curious, do you by any chance hold an FAA license?


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## dedgemon (Feb 1, 2016)

yup,
also do missile simulation work
new to archery however. toughest type of shooting sport that i've tried.


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## dchan (Jun 29, 2004)

limbwalker said:


> Typical humans - always blaming the equipment to take the focus off our own shortcomings.
> 
> When I was training seriously for the '04 and '12 trials, I would use vacation time at work to take off on windy days - just to go shoot. How many people here have done that? If you have, you are serious about learning to shoot in the wind. The result of my efforts were high finishes at the Texas Shootout and the '04 trials - both windy events. If I hadn't specifically targeted windy days for practice (and used calm wind days as my days off from shooting) I would never have done as well.


First part.. THIS.... +1
Second part.. One other person I know that trained like that was Rick, At our L3 in Chula Vista, he shared an experience where he knew at an upcoming world event, he most likely would have to shoot in the rain. At the time he was living in Arizona (I think) and rain in the summer in Arizona? so he set up a sprinkler to dump water on him while he practiced shooting.. Like John, you understand what your challenges will be and train specifically to over come them..


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## theminoritydude (Feb 11, 2013)

dedgemon said:


> yup,
> also do missile simulation work
> new to archery however. toughest type of shooting sport that i've tried.


Very pleased to make your acquaintance. Looking forward to sharing notes.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

dchan said:


> First part.. THIS.... +1
> Second part.. One other person I know that trained like that was Rick, At our L3 in Chula Vista, he shared an experience where he knew at an upcoming world event, he most likely would have to shoot in the rain. At the time he was living in Arizona (I think) and rain in the summer in Arizona? so he set up a sprinkler to dump water on him while he practiced shooting.. Like John, you understand what your challenges will be and train specifically to over come them..


I honestly don't know why more people don't just do this. It is the simplest form of approaching a known problem IMO.

I'm not a rocket scientist, and I don't carry an FAA license, but common sense tells you if you want to shoot better in the wind, practice shooting in the wind. If you want to shoot better in rain, practice shooting in the rain. Heat? Cold? Same deal. Again, not rocket science. Don't overthink this stuff folks.


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## Stash (Jun 1, 2002)

Same for field archers. I've come across so many who had no idea how to shoot uphill or downhill when they came to a hilly course "because my archery club has only flat terrain and I have nowhere to practise". 

I used to practise at home by putting a target at the bottom or top of a flight of stairs. Didn't help with sight settings, but I sure learned how to maintain my form for steep shots. 

There's so much people can do to learn how to deal with archery situations other than nice, flat, warm, calm conditions. Shoot off a pile of rocks to experience unusual and uneven footing. Time your practise sessions to simulate competitions. Firing off a dozen arrows at a time is a bit different than shoot 3 and waiting for the second line and slow people taking their time scoring, until the next end 15 minutes later.

Bowhunters especially. You see them all the time on the practise ranges and 3Ds on nice sunny days, but stick one in a tree on a cold December morning wearing 6 layers of insulated clothing, have him sit perfectly still for 2 hours, and then try to make a 45 degree downhill shot from a sitting position, twisted to the right, with a pounding heart, and then listen to them claim the deer "jumped the shot".


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## dedgemon (Feb 1, 2016)

limbwalker said:


> I honestly don't know why more people don't just do this. It is the simplest form of approaching a known problem IMO.
> 
> I'm not a rocket scientist, and I don't carry an FAA license, but common sense tells you if you want to shoot better in the wind, practice shooting in the wind. If you want to shoot better in rain, practice shooting in the rain. Heat? Cold? Same deal. Again, not rocket science. Don't overthink this stuff folks.


couldnt agree more.

understanding the physics is one thing, learning to shoot is something else.

It is interested to read you guys obsevations and see how they line up with the math. occupational hazard i suppose. &#55357;&#56842;


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Stash said:


> Same for field archers. I've come across so many who had no idea how to shoot uphill or downhill when they came to a hilly course "because my archery club has only flat terrain and I have nowhere to practise".
> 
> I used to practise at home by putting a target at the bottom or top of a flight of stairs. Didn't help with sight settings, but I sure learned how to maintain my form for steep shots.
> 
> ...


Yup.

For archery deer season, I practice from the top of my roof to a 3-D deer target in my back yard. 

Here's what I know about archers... Lots of folks claim to "love" archery. Only about 5% actually shoot enough arrows to ever EVER reach their potential. And of those, only about 1-2% will train under ANY circumstances. 

I'll let everyone figure out what % they are in.


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## jmvargas (Oct 21, 2004)

i guess the practice thing is applicable to most if not all sports...

as Lee Trevino once said _" the more i practice the luckier i get"...


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Speaking of golf, could anyone imagine Tiger or Jack avoiding practice on windy or rainy days? Of course not. The great ones look forward to practice during harsh conditions because they know 1) it will make them better and 2) their competition is sitting somewhere comfortable hoping things will get better.


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## dchan (Jun 29, 2004)

Same for skiers.

The best all around skiers are the ones that are skiing the crud, hard bumps, lousy snow, in the worst possible weather while their friends are in the lodge or bar drinking coffee, or having a beer.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

dchan said:


> Same for skiers.
> 
> The best all around skiers are the ones that are skiing the crud, hard bumps, lousy snow, in the worst possible weather while their friends are in the lodge or bar drinking coffee, or having a beer.


Yup. But we'll still keep talking about equipment 24/7/365 LOL.


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## dmacey (Mar 27, 2015)

theminoritydude said:


> Very pleased to make your acquaintance. Looking forward to sharing notes.


I also got my PP-ASEL, but that was in '98, so I've mostly forgotten all my ground school. But I believe dedge is correct. Wind effects and time do not actually have the linear relationship your intuition might lead you to believe they have. Anyone who's done cross counties in strong upper level winds understands that if you make a mistake in your calculations and then land to get gas . Basically, the longer the flight time of your arrow, the more time the wind has to act on it. So it's not a simple proportional effect simply scaled on the extra time alone.

For me, the best money I've spent for shooting in the wind so far is my trusty Beestinger quick disconnects. Putting the stab in the quiver when required can dramatically improve my hold on the types of winds I have to shoot in around here outdoors .

DM


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## grantmac (May 31, 2007)

Can't really compare a propelled object in cruise with a ballistic object.
If ballistics could be solved on an E6B shooting long range would be far simpler.

Good thing none of it really matters for archery.

Grant


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## dmacey (Mar 27, 2015)

grantmac said:


> Can't really compare a propelled object in cruise with a ballistic object.
> If ballistics could be solved on an E6B shooting long range would be far simpler.
> 
> Good thing none of it really matters for archery.
> ...


Well, no, an object moving through an airmass is an object moving through an airmass; the effects of the "relative wind" are going to be the same. Your last statement I agree with tho.

DM


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## grantmac (May 31, 2007)

dmacey said:


> Well, no, an object moving through an airmass is an object moving through an airmass; the effects of the "relative wind" are going to be the same. Your last statement I agree with tho.
> 
> DM


An object which is countering drag with propulsion is a very different situation to one which is not.
Drift is a simple vector for an aircraft; it's angular.

An aircraft and a balloon have more in common that an arrow does with either.


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## theminoritydude (Feb 11, 2013)

dmacey said:


> Wind effects and time do not actually have the linear relationship your intuition might lead you to believe they have. Anyone who's done cross counties in strong upper level winds understands that if you make a mistake in your calculations and then land to get gas .
> DM


http://www.transair.co.uk/products/images/large/pooleys_crp5.jpg


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## dmacey (Mar 27, 2015)

theminoritydude said:


> http://www.transair.co.uk/products/images/large/pooleys_crp5.jpg


Yep, I think I still have my old E6B around somewhere. An aluminum model too! 

DM


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## piccoloj (May 22, 2016)

So after all the math, what is a practical arrow for shooting in the wind? I'm seeing conflicting opinions as to arrow weight, FOC, and points. Does any of that matter? 

It seems to me that the answer would be the skinniest arrow you can buy for your poundage, with little fletchings. Mostly to just reduce the drag and drift to have the wind affect it the least.


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## piccoloj (May 22, 2016)

And perhaps a heavy bow to counteract shooter drift


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## theminoritydude (Feb 11, 2013)

Spin vanes. Provides the most drag at high pitch angles, shortest time to adjust for down shafte air flow, gets into a terminal constant rate spin with minimized drag thereafter. Then, calculate average true air speed, factor in wind speed and direction, to arrive at resultant velocity.

The real advantage of low profile shafts is not about constant drift. It's how wind is not constant and changes down range, that a narrow shaft is less susceptible to the change in its own flight path, than a fat shaft.


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## dchan (Jun 29, 2004)

piccoloj said:


> So after all the math, what is a practical arrow for shooting in the wind? I'm seeing conflicting opinions as to arrow weight, FOC, and points. * Does any of that matter? *
> 
> It seems to me that the answer would be the skinniest arrow you can buy for your poundage, with little fletchings. Mostly to just reduce the drag and drift to have the wind affect it the least.





piccoloj said:


> And perhaps a heavy bow to counteract shooter drift


or just practice more. good practice and experience will almost always win out over equipment..

Best arrow? The set you have shot with most and understand how they will react in adverse conditions.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

dchan said:


> or just practice more. good practice and experience will almost always win out over equipment..
> 
> Best arrow? The set you have shot with most and understand how they will react in adverse conditions.


Of course, this is the correct answer to all this speculation and hand-wringing. But it's not the answer most people want. 

Better archery through aggressive spending I say!


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

dchan said:


> or just practice more. good practice and experience will almost always win out over equipment..
> 
> Best arrow? The set you have shot with most and understand how they will react in adverse conditions.


Of course, this is the correct answer to all this speculation and hand-wringing. But it's not the answer most people want. 

Better archery through aggressive spending I say!  LOL.

I once watched my daughter who was probably 12 at the time, earn her 50 meter recurve JOAD pin shooting just 22 lbs at 22" draw and using 1214 Jazz arrows with 40 grain points and FEATHERS. They were basically set up for indoors. She only had one set of arrows at the time. She was lobbing those things into a steady 15 mph crosswind, aiming 2 feet off the bale at a tree branch in the distance. She earned her pin anyway and you would never even know she was aiming that far off unless you asked her. In other words, it was no big deal to her to do that - she had that much experience shooting in the wind at just 12. So really, there is no excuse for a grown person IMO. Esp. if they are too lazy to practice.


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## kshet26 (Dec 20, 2010)

We say "shut-up and shoot" and joke about focusing too heavily on equipment, but there is a component to this sport where equipment factors into score. If that weren't the case, we'd see no score difference between recurve and compound. Heck, if that weren't the case, why not just give Brady a stick bow with wooden arrows? I'm not confident that even with all the training time in the world, he'd be able to make the 104 cut at Antalya.

We can tell those we coach to just focus 100% of their energy on shooting, but this is a board where people come talk about archery and gain understanding (when threads don't fly off the rails). If no one thought deeper about the mechanics of archery we'd still be here:


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## J. Wesbrock (Dec 17, 2003)

Yep, we could make pouring a glass of water seem complicated given enough time.


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## crushedeiffel (May 24, 2015)

limbwalker said:


> She earned her pin anyway and you would never even know she was aiming that far off unless you asked her. In other words, it was no big deal to her to do that - she had that much experience shooting in the wind at just 12. So really, there is no excuse for a grown person IMO. Esp. if they are too lazy to practice.


I remember one very windy ( arrows where falling from compounds rests) FITA with Lionel Torres ans Sebastien Flute present, at 90M most where aiming at the next target not you onw. Looking for my arrow behind the 90M target in the bushes I met Flute....
But one person made way more points more than the others (maybe 70) Lionel Torres. I was the first time he impressed me that much. Because he managed to keep a correct shooting form during all the event. Clicker was still passing smoothly, just some aborted shoot from time to time.
His arrows where the same as everybody else at the event X10 spin wings or flonite. Bow weight same average.
Only difference he shot way better then the rest of us.
Later I we discussed training while not going out during bad weather :if training was scheduled he went regardless of the weather . Do that before spending money on arrows


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

kshet26 said:


> We say "shut-up and shoot" and joke about focusing too heavily on equipment, but there is a component to this sport where equipment factors into score. If that weren't the case, we'd see no score difference between recurve and compound. Heck, if that weren't the case, why not just give Brady a stick bow with wooden arrows? I'm not confident that even with all the training time in the world, he'd be able to make the 104 cut at Antalya.
> 
> We can tell those we coach to just focus 100% of their energy on shooting, but this is a board where people come talk about archery and gain understanding (when threads don't fly off the rails). If no one thought deeper about the mechanics of archery *we'd still be here*:
> 
> View attachment 4399426


I think a lot of people would actually be happier if that were the case.

Some have even figured this out and still shoot that type of equipment.


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## dchan (Jun 29, 2004)

None of us are saying that the equipment does NOT play a part in the accuracy of our shot. There's just too much focus how much the equipment makes a difference rather than the athlete. 

If I (not a "great" archer but pretty good) can take a 10 lb rolan (plastic riser/quintissential limbs) with no sight, stabilizer or plunger (super rest) and consistently put slightly overspined (2000 spine, bare shaft goes left about 6" at 20m) low FOC medallion XR's in the blue at 50M on a slightly windy day, You will have a hard time convincing me that increasing my FOC to 20% and changing all my arrows for perfect match to bow weight will buy me that many points. 

I do agree that based on the above equipment, moving up to a more reasonable weight, higher quality limbs, better matched arrows, plunger, etc would result in much better performance in the wind but, it's still going to be much more about the archer than the equipment.

I will tell you it's a heck of a lot of fun knowing I can generally put all my arrows in the target at 50M with the above current setup. Very satisfying to hear that distinct "arrow/paper/bale" thunk!

DC


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## Mr. Roboto (Jul 13, 2012)

Physics is a very powerful tool for understanding archery.

But knowing physics will not make you a better archer. That requires old school methods - shoot, shoot some more, and between those shoots, squeeze in some more shoots.

Physics can help in selecting the right components and setup that works best for you, and understand cause and effect. But all of this can also be learned by the old fashion trial and error approach. Understanding physics can help one move beyond marketing hype for components or spotting incorrect personal opinions about things.

I spend a lot of time in the virtual archery range, and use it to tell me what I need to do when I am at the range. And when I successfully execute the plan, it is amazing how reality and physics agree with each other.


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## dedgemon (Feb 1, 2016)

I find that most of us technical folks want to know more than just what to do, we want to know why. Might not make us better shooters but it does help separate the truth from the lore.

Turns out that some of the behavior of the arrow is fairly straightforward, but there are other aspects that are pretty complex. The system is inherently fl xible with significant bending modes. This makes the math "messy". Then theres that whole fingers thing.  

Oh well, fun stuff.


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## Arcus (Jul 7, 2005)

J. Wesbrock said:


> Yep, we could make pouring a glass of water seem complicated given enough time.


If you're doing it outside, and there are wind gusts, do you aim at the rim of the glass?


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## dedgemon (Feb 1, 2016)

Arcus said:


> If you're doing it outside, and there are wind gusts, do you aim at the rim of the glass?


depends on how full it is


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## theminoritydude (Feb 11, 2013)

Mr. Roboto said:


> But knowing physics will not make you a better archer.


That is not true.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Ah the age-old debate of theoretical vs. applied science. Ain't it fun? 

I'll take applied for 1000 Alex.


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## J. Wesbrock (Dec 17, 2003)

Arcus said:


> If you're doing it outside, and there are wind gusts, do you aim at the rim of the glass?


In it, not at it. That's what my dad used to tell me when I was a little kid.


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## Mr. Roboto (Jul 13, 2012)

theminoritydude said:


> That is not true.


I used physics to completely set up my bow, string, nock points, string walking crawls, and range finding for the FITA Field shoot this past weekend. Everything fell just as it was predicted. The range finding technique wasn't even tried until I shot the first arrow on Saturday. Broke the state unmarked record.

The barebow shooters I was shooting with that was gapping, kept teasing the string walkers about why we weren't banging the 5's and 6's all day long. I said, its because I suck as an archer. I just know what everything is supposed to do, I just can't execute it - nothing to do with physics at that point.

Then on the marked distances. Last target. 40m on the 60cm target. Last arrow. 3 points, I tie the state record, 4 or better the record is mine. I stand there, one stitch crawl, draw, bring the arrow up to the bottom edge of the spot. Just before I release, I think to myself, "don't botch this shot and its yours" Pluck city usa. out into the 1 ring. Physics doesn't help there. Just classic stupid human error.

Physics helps me figure out what I need to do. But the human element is still there - I suck.


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## theminoritydude (Feb 11, 2013)

The qualifying statement "But knowing physics will not make you a better archer" is not true. Because if it were to be true, then the statement "knowing physics will make you a better archer" will therefore be untrue.

One CANNOT prove that.


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## Arcus (Jul 7, 2005)

Mr. Roboto said:


> I used physics to completely set up my bow, string, nock points, string walking crawls, and range finding for the FITA Field shoot this past weekend. Everything fell just as it was predicted. The range finding technique wasn't even tried until I shot the first arrow on Saturday. Broke the state unmarked record.
> 
> The barebow shooters I was shooting with that was gapping, kept teasing the string walkers about why we weren't banging the 5's and 6's all day long. I said, its because I suck as an archer. I just know what everything is supposed to do, I just can't execute it - nothing to do with physics at that point.
> 
> ...


I think there might be confusion by what you mean when you say "better archer." If you mean better scores, then by using physics, you cobbled together the appropriate tackle that played a role in your good scores. But, if "better archer" means better form and mental toughness, then yes, physics will not correct your form flaws and mental lapses.


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## Mr. Roboto (Jul 13, 2012)

Doesn't "better" generally get tied with higher scores?

If archer A is a physicist that knows all the theory in the world and can write books on it, and shoots a 250 on a 300 round, and archer B that has very little knowledge of the physics of shooting, but through shear skill, shoots 295's. Then which of the two is a better archer? Amongst their piers, who will be determined as being a better archer? If the 250 shooter is shooting a barebow, and the 295 shooter a compound, whose the better archer?

I love these forums,


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## Arcus (Jul 7, 2005)

Mr. Roboto said:


> Doesn't "better" generally get tied with higher scores?
> 
> If archer A is a physicist that knows all the theory in the world and can write books on it, and shoots a 250 on a 300 round, and archer B that has very little knowledge of the physics of shooting, but through shear skill, shoots 295's. Then which of the two is a better archer? Amongst their piers, who will be determined as being a better archer? If the 250 shooter is shooting a barebow, and the 295 shooter a compound, whose the better archer?
> 
> I love these forums,


Well, you lost me. I thought you were telling us that your understanding of physics lead to your choices for tackle, which resulted in scores higher than they would have been otherwise, but then concluding that understanding the physics did not contribute to your better scores. I'm neither a physics guy nor a logician, so I'm okay with being confused. But, at least I'm confused on a much higher plane (from an old Skylar cartoon).


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Arcus, I think that too often people forget that the target is the ultimate judge of how much someone knows, and if what they know is really that important.


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## Viper1 (Aug 21, 2003)

John -

You're making way too much sense. 
Also liked the applied vs theoretical Physics thing ...

Viper1 out.


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## theminoritydude (Feb 11, 2013)

I'm going to leave you guys with this:

If knowing physics (and, presumably application of that knowledge) does not make one a better archer (than he or she already is)......

does that archer actually know physics?


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## grantmac (May 31, 2007)

theminoritydude said:


> I'm going to leave you guys with this:
> 
> If knowing physics (and, presumably application of that knowledge) does not make one a better archer (than he or she already is)......
> 
> does that archer actually know physics?


Why don't we hand Stephen Hawking a bow and find out?


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## Stash (Jun 1, 2002)

He could probably tell you what would happen if you shot an arrow into a black hole, but the effect of wind? I bet he'd just tell you to practise aiming off.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Stash said:


> He could probably tell you what would happen if you shot an arrow into a black hole, but the effect of wind? I bet he'd just tell you to practise aiming off.


Nah, some people you just can't tell anything.


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## Mr. Roboto (Jul 13, 2012)

I applied physics to figure out what I needed to do. And when I did it, everything (centroid of the group size) did exactly what was expected.

I have always shot 50# bows, Last summer I dropped to #45 because I am having are harder time holding 50# at full draw for several seconds as I aim. For indoors, I wanted to get point on this year instead of aiming at the ground all the time. I created a draw force curve of my limbs to generate a stored energy model. I took velocity measurements of different arrows. plugged all that into my ballistic profile spread sheet, and it told me that I needed 36# limbs, and 225 grain points on my arrows. I bought a set of cheap limbs from Lancaster that they had in stock, put 225 gr points on the arrow, and bam, point on. Shot a 277 at our state indoors, barebow, a couple months ago. A personal best. Physics didn't make me a better archer. It just told me what changes I needed to get the performance I desired.

Knowing physics doesn't improve my poor eyesight, or my jitters holding the bow, or not letting down when I need to, butter flies in the stomach, plucking the arrow, putting too much pressure on my third finger, healing the bow, raping the for arm with the string on release, getting cocky in the head thinking about how I can't miss, then yanking one into the 1 ring.

I could have learned all of this by trial and error.

The knowledge of physics doesn't make me a physically better archer since I still have to execute the shot. That is the problem most of us have. We all know what we need to do, we just have difficulty executing it. I am using physics to help me figure out what I need to be doing, and what changes to the equipment is needed to meet the goals.

In the original topic, physics can tell you what a particular arrow will do in a certain cross wind. Then one looks at the actual performance in shooting in the cross wind, one can then determine, is the arrow being affected more by the wind, or is it the archer being affected more by the wind. For example if one knows that the wind component of the uncertainty is that the arrow moves, say 5 inches, but the groups are moving 15 inches. Where should the work be? Buying new arrows, or improving ones ability to stand in the wind. A lot of people one to blame the equipment first and buy new things to fix a problem that really isn't in the equipment but it is in the archer. Physics is the objective coach.


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## piccoloj (May 22, 2016)

Do you have a copy of that spreadsheet to share?

Sounds like it could help with eliminating variables trying to figure out point-on, without having to buy one each of 10 different arrows and five tip weights.


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## Mr. Roboto (Jul 13, 2012)

piccoloj said:


> Do you have a copy of that spreadsheet to share?
> 
> Sounds like it could help with eliminating variables trying to figure out point-on, without having to buy one each of 10 different arrows and five tip weights.


Its not one spreadsheet but a series of spreadsheets. One sheet has the draw force curves that is used to calculate stored energy in the limbs. Another spreadsheet had actual velocity measurements for arrows with different weights that is used to generate limb efficiency as a function of arrow mass (the bow efficiency changes quite a bit with different arrow mass). One spread sheet contains physical measurements of arrow flight trajectories at different distances from 5 to 90 meters. One spreadsheet that contains theoretical ballistic profiles with air resistance. One spread sheet that contains the effect of flight profile based on my anchor and aiming method. This shooter specific which incorporates the draw length, the height between nock and the center of the eye, and the angles between the eye sight vector and my aiming point. And a spreadsheet on the effect of flight trajectory due to changing the nock points on the string. Did I mention that string mass also affects this? Then with all of these and overlaying the different plots one can then start to see the cause and effect of each of these parameters, and then interpolating between points or extrapolating points one can then do some virtual simulations when changing different parameters. Not much of it is documented so another person can see what I am doing and then doing all their own measurements, and then how to apply them all together. On occasion I will post some of these plots here, or over at trad talk, or on my facebook page. For the most part, people's eyes gloss over when they see them. But on rare occasions, someone will recognize the nuggets in the plots. Its like they say, a picture is worth a thousand words.


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## piccoloj (May 22, 2016)

Fair enough, I was hoping for a relatively simple ballistics chart where arrow speed, weight and energy would give results to start with. Maybe something similar to a ballistics chart for choosing a rifle load... guess it's too much to hope for. It's probably more fun to just simply go shoot arrows anyway and figure it out by educated guesses and experimenting.


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