# Question about tuning a barebow



## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

2nd one. You'll find that your tune will have a great deal to do with your point of impact. Personally, I shoot what would be considered a "weak" tune on my barebow rig, so that I can aim dead on. If I tuned the bare shaft into the fletched group, I would hit to the left when I aim with the arrow. YMMV.


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## erose (Aug 12, 2014)

limbwalker said:


> 2nd one. You'll find that your tune will have a great deal to do with your point of impact. Personally*, I shoot what would be considered a "weak" tune on my barebow rig*, so that I can aim dead on. If I tuned the bare shaft into the fletched group, I would hit to the left when I aim with the arrow. YMMV.


Can you explain this a little better? Not sure what you mean by weak tune. 

Also if lets say that I adjust the plunger where the arrow tip is slightly left of centerline, and I use the tip to line up with the center of the target, wouldn't the arrow fly right naturally? So would that mean that I would have to have my plunger pretty stiff to compensate?

Thanks for the help, John.


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## Mr. Roboto (Jul 13, 2012)

I have been fighting with this same issue for 3 weeks now. I got my nock point set so that vertically the bare shafts are dead on with the fletched arrows. My vertical groups are tight. Left right I got a bit of a spread, but I have the plunger setting so that the bare shafts are right in with the fletched arrows. All this at 20 yards. And I am shooting way left. The "book" says to adjust your sight. What sight. So I move the plunger in towards the riser. Arrow groups move to the right. Right now the arrow is perfectly centered on the string, and I am still hitting about 4" to the left. My plunger is backed all the way out. I changed arrows from ACC 3-18 with 81 gr tips to VAP 500 with 110 gr tips. Same shooting results. Last night I swapped out the spring in the beiter plunger to the light one. I will get that one tried out in the next day or so depending on the work schedule.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Weak as in bare shaft hitting about 5" to the right of my fletched group at 30 meters. Seems to be where I shoot the best for outdoor barebow.


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## dchan (Jun 29, 2004)

Mr. Roboto said:


> I have been fighting with this same issue for 3 weeks now. I got my nock point set so that vertically the bare shafts are dead on with the fletched arrows. My vertical groups are tight. Left right I got a bit of a spread, but I have the plunger setting so that the bare shafts are right in with the fletched arrows. All this at 20 yards. And I am shooting way left. The "book" says to adjust your sight. What sight. *So I move the plunger in towards the riser. Arrow groups move to the right. Right now the arrow is perfectly centered on the string, and I am still hitting about 4" to the left. My plunger is backed all the way out.* I changed arrows from ACC 3-18 with 81 gr tips to VAP 500 with 110 gr tips. Same shooting results. Last night I swapped out the spring in the beiter plunger to the light one. I will get that one tried out in the next day or so depending on the work schedule.


You guys keep thinking centerline adjustments and plunger tension are "tuning" While they will affect arrow flight some, you need to separate this from actual tuning. 

centerline adjustment is a setup thing NOT tuning. Making centerline adjustments to move the arrow in it's final position, is only a band aid fix. Changing plunger pressure, while it will affect arrow flight, is also really a way for compensating for slight changes in form/release. You really need to be tuning using bare shafts and adjusting weights of both DW and distribution of weight on the arrow or strings. Get it in the sweet spot first, then make very minor adjustments if necessary using the plunger pressure. 

I suspect John would get the bareshaft tune (weak bareshaft 5"@30M) by changing the things that matter, point weight, arrow length, nock weight, draw weight, etc

DC

You


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## grantmac (May 31, 2007)

I found that getting the string blur aligned with the arrow allows me to shoot inline with a fairly wide variety of tunes. Not saying they don't average a bit left or right depending, but the group itself is pretty much inline.
I used to have to shoot a weak tune to accomplish that when I had the blur on the riser.

Also I have the arrow offset half a diameter outside, but I'm also using limbs which prefer that position.

-Grant


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

DC, when you enter into the barebow target world, you can throw some of the Oly. Recurve tuning rules out the window.


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## dchan (Jun 29, 2004)

limbwalker said:


> DC, when you enter into the barebow target world, you can throw some of the Oly. Recurve tuning rules out the window.


Thanks and yeah I am aware of this. 

Most of our archers at the club are barebow shooters and a lot of the tuning experience I have gathered over the years was with barebow as well as compound. 

I am also a tinkerer and have some engineering background so I understand enough of the physics behind it all to be dangerous :wink:

Because so much of the tuning is human based (us as archers) even with OR, sometimes we have to step outside our thinking and "rules" to get the results we want or need. It doesn't mean we (you and I both) don't use common and known methods to get as close as we can before working other possibilities to obtain the best results we can.

Would this be a fair assessment?


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## Mr. Roboto (Jul 13, 2012)

Okay so what am I missing here. I have my bare shafts and fletched arrows grouping together at 20 yards. Isn't this considered tuned? And yet I am hitting to the left of where I am aiming.

The 500 spine arrows are already at full length with 110gr tips (I can go up to 140gr). The 42#@28" limbs are currently at 43# OTF for a 29.5 DL, BH is 9-1/8" So if moving the plunger is the wrong thing to do, what is next? get 600 spine arrows?


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## granite14 (Nov 10, 2014)

Mr. Roboto, 
whenever that happens to me, it is string blur alignment and anchor point too far out from my face.


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## steve morley (Dec 24, 2005)

What Plunger are you using? A dial/click plunger makes life easier in BB, I'm now using a Beiter Plunger, once I have my basic 30y bareshaft tune, I check everything 20y to out to 50y with walkback drop tune and then I will fine tune the Plunger if required i.e. 2 clicks on the Plunger with move my arrow about 1" left/right at 30y (depending on the direction I want to go). You can also shoot an Indoor round and see which side the arrow holes favor left or right and adjust as required but drop tune is quicker.

It really helps if your arrow spine is already in the ball park, you don't want to be out of that initial centerline setup or you will have all kinds of issues on the long shots, also Grant is spot on, string blur really helps keep that line, I lost some draw length but gained a lot more on shot consistency. I also noticed with string blur I see the arrow tip more easily, I tend not to peek at the arrow anymore. 

If anything my Bareshaft is slightly stiff, 1" left of group at 30y.


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## grantmac (May 31, 2007)

If the bareshafts are hitting within a foot of the fletched at 20yds then I'm afraid it's a form issue. Likely having the string blur too far out.

-Grant


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## MartinOttosson (May 31, 2011)

grantmac said:


> If the bareshafts are hitting within a foot of the fletched at 20yds then I'm afraid it's a form issue. Likely having the string blur too far out.
> 
> -Grant


No, it´s not sure that it´s a form issue. It might be, but it is also a result of the choice of arrows and all other spine affecting parameters on the bow. 

It´s the (dynamic) spine of the arrow that determines where you end up sideways, if you tune your bareshafts together with the fletched group. In olympic recurve, you have a rather wide interval of acceptable tune where you can get the bareshafts into the fletched arrows, since you can adjust the hit with the plunger. In barebow you have a specific dynamic spine that will give you a tune where both the bareshafts and the fletched ones will hit in the middle at the same time. Just a little bit too soft or too stiff, and you will have to accept to adjust your bareshaft to hit left or right of the group or else you will not hit where you aim. Think about it as two horizontal pendulums, where the fletched arrows are a slow moving one and the bareshaft a fast moving one. The slow pendulum (fletched) will move sideways when you adjust the plunger/dynamic spine, but not that much. The fast pendulum (bareshaft) will move a lot when you change spine related parameters. Somewhere those two will align, and that alignment is specific for your current setup. Change the setup, and you will move the alignment position sideways. I perform the best when I get my "pendulum alignment" slightly right of center, like to the right in the ten on a 18m indoor target. I then add just a little bit of the plunger tension and hit in the middle. This means that I, in the terms used above, prefer a slightly stiff tune where the bareshaft hit about in the left nine on a 40cm indoor target on 18m. Not much, but a tad from neutral to the stiffer side. 

I am not sure that I managed to explain this, but if not, let me know and I try again.


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## Greysides (Jun 10, 2009)

MartinOttosson said:


> No, it´s not sure that it´s a form issue. It might be, but it is also a result of the choice of arrows and all other spine affecting parameters on the bow.
> 
> It´s the (dynamic) spine of the arrow that determines where you end up sideways, if you tune your bareshafts together with the fletched group. In olympic recurve, you have a rather wide interval of acceptable tune where you can get the bareshafts into the fletched arrows, *since you can adjust the hit with the plunger*.


Do you mean 'adjust the hit with the sights'?


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## MartinOttosson (May 31, 2011)

Greysides said:


> Do you mean 'adjust the hit with the sights'?


Oh, yes, ofcourse. I´ll edit that.

No, I don´t. I just noticed that edit function closes after a while...


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## Ms.Speedmaster (Dec 10, 2010)

granite14 said:


> Mr. Roboto,
> whenever that happens to me, it is string blur alignment and anchor point too far out from my face.


Yep, that's what I was thinking. I have found that barebow really emphasizes the need for a well defined and consistent anchor. I mean, all archery does, but when you lose that string on the nose and chin with Olympic style, you have to find an anchor that allows you to get a similar center alignment. 

At 18m, my middle finger is almost in the center of my mouth.


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## J. Wesbrock (Dec 17, 2003)

Martin,

That was an excellent explanation. Thanks.


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## Sanford (Jan 26, 2009)

Mr. Roboto said:


> Okay so what am I missing here. I have my bare shafts and fletched arrows grouping together at 20 yards. Isn't this considered tuned? And yet I am hitting to the left of where I am aiming.


Then they are both going where you are aiming them - form issue. Judge from the nock lean of the bareshaft. If it's straight, it's entering straight - same as the fletched.


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## itbeso (Jul 6, 2005)

Well, I don't know much about shooting non sights but I do know that anyone who tells a barebow archer to tune a bow and arrow like you would tune an Olympic bow is leading you down the wrong path. Barebow tuning is all about tuning the bow and arrow to hit where you are looking in terms of right and left, period.


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## steve morley (Dec 24, 2005)

itbeso said:


> Well, I don't know much about shooting non sights but I do know that anyone who tells a barebow archer to tune a bow and arrow like you would tune an Olympic bow is leading you down the wrong path. Barebow tuning is all about tuning the bow and arrow to hit where you are looking in terms of right and left, period.


Maybe time to post a comprehensive sticky on tuning for Barebow, very little info available anywhere that is specific to Barebow. I watched Ty Pelfry "Modern Traditional" DVD, used the following link http://www.archersreference.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/archref_05.pdf and blindly stumbled more by luck than skill into a half decent BB tune.


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## Sanford (Jan 26, 2009)

itbeso said:


> Well, I don't know much about shooting non sights but I do know that anyone who tells a barebow archer to tune a bow and arrow like you would tune an Olympic bow is leading you down the wrong path. Barebow tuning is all about tuning the bow and arrow to hit where you are looking in terms of right and left, period.


Correct, but is there not a point where your baseline is a tuned arrow by conventional standards, and by conventional standards, a deviation from that "for purpose" is standard procedure for barebow tuning, but, by conventional definition, still an un-tuned arrow? I ask not from BB experience but to know where the difference is at a standard 20 yard test.


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## grantmac (May 31, 2007)

MartinO posted the most comprehensive BB tuning I've ever seen in a thread on TT a few years back. I forgot to save it and that is a shame since it was amazing.

Perhaps he has a copy?

-Grant

P.S. I know for me it's almost always a form issue if the arrows are more than 3-4" off of line at 20yds regardless of tune.


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## Sanford (Jan 26, 2009)

grantmac said:


> P.S. I know for me it's almost always a form issue if the arrows are more than 3-4" off of line at 20yds regardless of tune.


At 20 yards, I've shot a lot of ill-tuned bareshafted arrows for purpose. The power of the fletch usually proves for me what you find, as well.


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## dchan (Jun 29, 2004)

itbeso said:


> Well, I don't know much about shooting non sights but I do know that anyone who tells a barebow archer to tune a bow and arrow like you would tune an Olympic bow is leading you down the wrong path.* Barebow tuning is all about tuning the bow and arrow to hit where you are looking in terms of right and left, period.*


If this were the case, we wouldn't care about finding a reasonable spine, impacts to the riser, anchor, or almost anything else. Using your "logic" If I had a strange but consistent anchor, and arrows that were 4 spines over, causing consistent impacts to the riser but I am able to move my plunger to the point (even if the centershot were way out there) where my point on at 18M put the arrow in the center of the target, that would be tuned.. 

Sorry I don't agree with that.

Barebow or OR, or compound, we need to deal with paradox. We need to think about recovery of the arrow through it's flex cycle. We want the bow to be as forgiving as possible to our "form variances" and errors.

Once we get to that point, then moving and adjusting tune to affect impact location makes sense.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

There is a good reason I'm staying out of this discussion DC.


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## kenn1320 (Aug 28, 2004)

I get my bare shafts and fletched hitting where I want by changing spine and or point weight. This is after setting my bow at or just off center shot. Maybe I'm doing it wrong? My set ups always need stiffer spine than charts suggest, but I tend to keep my shafts full length.


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## 2413gary (Apr 10, 2008)

I was thinking the same thing about how I tune :wink:


limbwalker said:


> There is a good reason I'm staying out of this discussion DC.


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## vabowdog (Dec 13, 2007)

The reason I'm staying out of this conversation is I don't know enough to deserve to be in this conversation...seriously...I'm learning ALOT.


Thanks to you guys for your input.


Dewayne Martin


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## Mr. Roboto (Jul 13, 2012)

The Victory arrow chart says for my draw weight and arrow length, to use 500 spine arrows, so I am using 500 spine arrows. The 110 gr Top Hat points is right in the middle of the weight range (90 to 140). The fletching is 2.25 inch long shield cut at 5gr each. The spine is supposed to be fine for 43# OTF. I set up the arrow tip and the Beiter plunger so that the arrow tip is slightly to the left of the string (I am right handed). I have gone through the paper tuning process with fletched and bare shafts. Got the nock set at 7/8" and very little tear. Nothing up and down, and slightly to the left, but inside the 1" like the book says. Then at 20yards, arrows are way left. I have played with brace height from 8.5 to 9.1 and varied the draw weight between 43 to 50 pounds. Everything shoots to the left. at 20 yards the bare shafts are grouping with the fletched arrows.

The "books" talk about adjusting the sights to get where you are aiming and hitting to be the same point. The "books" ignore the existence of barebows because there is no sight to adjust. I can move the plunger position to move the arrows, but that is moving the arrow tip to the right side of the string (I am a right handed). All of my past wooden bows with plungers pretty much worked with what the book says. And they didn't have this hitting left issue.

People tell my not to move the arrow tip to the right side of the string or you will run into all sorts of clearance issues.

So then how does a barebow shooter get the left-right aiming point and hit point to align when one is following all the other steps according to the "book"

Form issue? could be. This is a jeager 2 grip low/medium. It is very different from the wood bows I have which tends to be more of a medium high grip based on my wrist angle. I have always used the string blur centered on the back of the riser for my past bows and it worked fine. I am doing the same with this bow. I shoot with a gaping at the target aiming style. Having the string blur next to the arrow tip makes it difficult to find aiming points on darker field targets so I went with the blur on the riser method for alignment. This may also be bow length issue with the form. All my past bows were 66" but this one is 70"

Anyways, from a general point of view, how do "barebow" shooters move their arrows left or right when bare shafts and fletched arrows are grouping together because isn't this the key indicator that the tuning is close to where it should be when the two are grouping together?


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## kenn1320 (Aug 28, 2004)

Mr. Roboto said:


> The Victory arrow chart says for my draw weight and arrow length, to use 500 spine arrows, so I am using 500 spine arrows. The 110 gr Top Hat points is right in the middle of the weight range (90 to 140). The fletching is 2.25 inch long shield cut at 5gr each. The spine is supposed to be fine for 43# OTF. I set up the arrow tip and the Beiter plunger so that the arrow tip is slightly to the left of the string (I am right handed). I have gone through the paper tuning process with fletched and bare shafts. Got the nock set at 7/8" and very little tear. Nothing up and down, and slightly to the left, but inside the 1" like the book says. Then at 20yards, arrows are way left. I have played with brace height from 8.5 to 9.1 and varied the draw weight between 43 to 50 pounds. Everything shoots to the left. at 20 yards the bare shafts are grouping with the fletched arrows.
> 
> The "books" talk about adjusting the sights to get where you are aiming and hitting to be the same point. The "books" ignore the existence of barebows because there is no sight to adjust. I can move the plunger position to move the arrows, but that is moving the arrow tip to the right side of the string (I am a right handed). All of my past wooden bows with plungers pretty much worked with what the book says. And they didn't have this hitting left issue.
> 
> ...


You don't mention several key parameters, like arrow length and your draw length. Also welcome to the real world, those charts don't work for everyone. Your weight OTF and a 500 spine tell me weak, but your arrows are hitting left indicating stiff. Your either getting a false stiff, or shooting an arrow shorter than 28"


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## Mr. Roboto (Jul 13, 2012)

They are full length arrows. From nock groove to the end of the carbon shaft, 30-7/8", my draw length is 29.5" AMO, and current setting on the bow is 43# at AMO as measured with the OMP M100 Digital bow scale.


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## granite14 (Nov 10, 2014)

whats your brace height and tiller? I once messed up my tiller and arrows were flying right. 
What nocking point and material? I ask this, because I thought I read a post somewhere where nock can be adjusted to move left/right. I think it was regarding somebody watching John Demmer going through the tuning process.


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## grantmac (May 31, 2007)

I know that quite a few BB guys shoot the 600 VAP for similar set-ups.

I personally can't get a 600 to fly past 38# OTF but that is just me and stiff usually shoots better for me.

-Grant


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## Greysides (Jun 10, 2009)

> I have always used the string blur centered on the back of the riser for my past bows and it worked fine.


As I see it, this is twisting the riser and pointing the arrow to the left, stiff.



> People tell my not to move the arrow tip to the right side of the string or you will run into all sorts of clearance issues.


Regardless, this is what I'd try if you wish to retain your string position. I see it as returning to the normal relationship upset by your string position.

Try it and see for yourself what happens. What hurt will it do?


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## 2413gary (Apr 10, 2008)

Pete move the arrow to the right and see what happens. just because it didn't work for the first guy doesn't mean it won't work for you. Sandy's arrow is a shaft and 1/2 out side center mine sets 1/8 inside of center both with great arrow flight both forgiving and group well. Every arrow and bow and shooter will produce a different tune don't get hung up on what the books say. In fact through the book out the window(in a safe place) and move things around it's a great learning experience.


Mr. Roboto said:


> The Victory arrow chart says for my draw weight and arrow length, to use 500 spine arrows, so I am using 500 spine arrows. The 110 gr Top Hat points is right in the middle of the weight range (90 to 140). The fletching is 2.25 inch long shield cut at 5gr each. The spine is supposed to be fine for 43# OTF. I set up the arrow tip and the Beiter plunger so that the arrow tip is slightly to the left of the string (I am right handed). I have gone through the paper tuning process with fletched and bare shafts. Got the nock set at 7/8" and very little tear. Nothing up and down, and slightly to the left, but inside the 1" like the book says. Then at 20yards, arrows are way left. I have played with brace height from 8.5 to 9.1 and varied the draw weight between 43 to 50 pounds. Everything shoots to the left. at 20 yards the bare shafts are grouping with the fletched arrows.
> 
> The "books" talk about adjusting the sights to get where you are aiming and hitting to be the same point. The "books" ignore the existence of barebows because there is no sight to adjust. I can move the plunger position to move the arrows, but that is moving the arrow tip to the right side of the string (I am a right handed). All of my past wooden bows with plungers pretty much worked with what the book says. And they didn't have this hitting left issue.
> 
> ...


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## itbeso (Jul 6, 2005)

dchan said:


> If this were the case, we wouldn't care about finding a reasonable spine, impacts to the riser, anchor, or almost anything else. Using your "logic" If I had a strange but consistent anchor, and arrows that were 4 spines over, causing consistent impacts to the riser but I am able to move my plunger to the point (even if the centershot were way out there) where my point on at 18M put the arrow in the center of the target, that would be tuned..
> 
> Sorry I don't agree with that.
> 
> ...


D-chan, you and other "coaches" are a big part of the barebow problem in this country. You know one way to tune a bow and it doesn't necessarily jive with how to set up a bow for shooting barebow. This is the reason I don't post how tos' anymore on these forums because you go out and win national and world titles, then try to give your experiences to other barebow shooters only to have 20 people tell you that you don't know what the hell you are talking about. Keep trying to feed people the same bs and I'll keep tuning the way I tune and let's see who has the best results. Good luck everyone.


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## Mr. Roboto (Jul 13, 2012)

Thanks Gary, I won't throw all of them out. One of them is borrowed. Steve might get mad at me if I burned his autographed copy of the book he loaned me.

Thanks to everyone that is trying to help. It is sounding like I may be one of those archers that doesn't quite fit in the mold. Just be patient with me and all my stupid questions. I will get this figured out. If not, I will blind everyone on the shooting line with my white than white legs when I wear a kilt to the shoots.

Pete


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## Warbow (Apr 18, 2006)

I'd like to think that we can have different opinions about technical issues and do so dispationately, without the discussion being taken personally...we aren't talking fixed vs. mechanical broad heads, after all.


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## erose (Aug 12, 2014)

Concerning the string blur; I've found in my limited experience that where you put the string blur is highly critical. Instead of putting your string blur center your riser, try lining it up with the right side of the gold and see what happens.

Reason why I say that is if you have your point just to the left of the centerline and you are using your point as an aiming device, then to truly be in line with the target requires the string blur to be just right of the point you are aiming at.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Warbow said:


> I'd like to think that we can have different opinions about technical issues and do so dispationately, without the discussion being taken personally...we aren't talking fixed vs. mechanical broad heads, after all.


Apparently this is not possible when barebow is being discussed on the FITA forum.


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## itbeso (Jul 6, 2005)

erose said:


> Concerning the string blur; I've found in my limited experience that where you put the string blur is highly critical. Instead of putting your string blur center your riser, try lining it up with the right side of the gold and see what happens.
> 
> Reason why I say that is if you have your point just to the left of the centerline and you are using your point as an aiming device, then to truly be in line with the target requires the string blur to be just right of the point you are aiming at.


erose, I have seen many posts about paying attention to string blur or lining up string blur on the bow somewhere. I can honestly say that in 46 years of shooting non sight, I have never payed attention to string location in my vision at all. What is important to me is that your anchor is very consistent and use your nose on fletch or your eyebrows touching string to give yourself a second head angle reference. Getting those two thing ingrained in your shot sequence is extremely important in making sure that your arrows impact the same, shot after shot. Soon, if you touch the string with your eyebrow or touch your nose to the fletching in a different spot, your brain will let you know that you are set up wrong. Head angle is so important in barebow shooting, especially at distance. Getting back to string blur, that is just another distraction to aiming that the archer doesn't need to pay attention to if he anchors and leans his head the same every time. This is just one of the many nuances to better barebow shooting, in my opinion.


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## itbeso (Jul 6, 2005)

Warbow said:


> I'd like to think that we can have different opinions about technical issues and do so dispationately, without the discussion being taken personally...we aren't talking fixed vs. mechanical broad heads, after all.


Warbow, people who are passionate rarely do things without passion. It seems to me that there is a good movement to bring the barebow class into the mainstream. However, in my opinion, that movement is set back daily by uninformed posters putting out information that sets back the curious, who are anxious to be properly informed. I do get passionate when I see garbage being presented as valid fact, especially by archers and coaches who don't have a clue as to how to shoot or set up to shoot barebow. Wouldn't it be wonderful if any new archer wanting to learn barebow, could get info that would cut their learning curve in half? I realize that is not going to happen under the current formats and the serial posters who throw stuff out there just to see how much will stick. Just for the record, being frustrated with the things I just spoke of in no way, shape, or form translates into taking things personally. Unlike others, My only concern is trying to help others shoot better.


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## steve morley (Dec 24, 2005)

Ben I never worried about string blur and shot pretty decent, one issue I had with Indoor shooting was I couldn't see the arrow tip in artificial light and ended up peeking for the arrow tip, which distracted me and messed up the rest of my shot sequence. I found using the string blur down the arrow helped, I just kept using it for outdoors and it's been a great help and feel I'm making stronger and more confident shots, my scores this season reflect this, I still have a way to go but I'm going in the right direction.

You do what is necessary to make you feel confident in the shot and different things work for different people, sometimes Barebow is about thinking outside the box:thumbs_up As I had nobody shooting BB here I had to figure a lot of this stuff out for myself, the standard Oly tuning was a baseline starting point and experimented/tweaked from there, it would have been a lot easier to have some experienced info as it would have saved me a lot of time and money, I tried at least 4 different spines of arrows before getting it right.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

> You do what is necessary to make you feel confident in the shot and different things work for different people, sometimes Barebow is about thinking outside the box


Yup. Barebow is as much about "feel" as it is about technical proficiency. This is what draws some of us to it, and what drives us nuts at times too.


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## Mr. Roboto (Jul 13, 2012)

Thanks Ben,

Gary got me started on tilting my head forward for the shot. I wear glasses, so I cant get on the eyebrow, but I do go all the way down and put the glass on the string. I started that one last Fall, and it is finally become second nature. With this, I can also get my nose to touch the fletching. Up until now, I haven't thought about making the nose-fletch part of my sequence.


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## itbeso (Jul 6, 2005)

steve morley said:


> Ben I never worried about string blur and shot pretty decent, one issue I had with Indoor shooting was I couldn't see the arrow tip in artificial light and ended up peeking for the arrow tip, which distracted me and messed up the rest of my shot sequence. I found using the string blur down the arrow helped, I just kept using it for outdoors and it's been a great help and feel I'm making stronger and more confident shots, my scores this season reflect this, I still have a way to go but I'm going in the right direction.
> 
> You do what is necessary to make you feel confident in the shot and different things work for different people, sometimes Barebow is about thinking outside the box:thumbs_up As I had nobody shooting BB here I had to figure a lot of this stuff out for myself, the standard Oly tuning was a baseline starting point and experimented/tweaked from there, it would have been a lot easier to have some experienced info as it would have saved me a lot of time and money, I tried at least 4 different spines of arrows before getting it right.


Steve, you are an accomplished barebow archer and I'm glad to see you are thinking outside the box because I'm assuming you are referring to the box where every one tunes as in Olympic style. Your reference to indoors and not being able to see your arrow tip confuses me. How did putting the string blur in the middle of the shaft enable you to see the arrow tip. Just asking in hopes of learning something new. Some food for thought. If a person sets their centershot according to the book, then adjusts button pressure so that bareshaft groups with fletched arrows, then goes to their point on and is shooting 12 inches right, or even 1 inch right, I have seen it said in print many times that you just adjust button tension till the arrow comes into the middle. At the point that you adjust any tension, have you not ruined your tune? Again , this is not sight shooting where you move your sight to wherever, it is barebow where you want the arrow to impact in the middle when you are looking down the middle of your arrow shaft.


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## Warbow (Apr 18, 2006)

itbeso said:


> Warbow, people who are passionate rarely do things without passion.


Passion is a motivator, but that doesn't make the way they passionately *choose* to respond to something necessarily the most productive response. It is possible to dispute someone's position without harshing on them personally. And if your ideas are better, it should be possible to demonstrate that factually. 



itbeso said:


> It seems to me that there is a good movement to bring the barebow class into the mainstream. However, in my opinion, that movement is set back daily by uninformed posters putting out information that sets back the curious, who are anxious to be properly informed. I do get passionate when I see garbage being presented as valid fact, especially by archers and coaches who don't have a clue as to how to shoot or set up to shoot barebow. Wouldn't it be wonderful if any new archer wanting to learn barebow, could get info that would cut their learning curve in half? I realize that is not going to happen under the current formats and the serial posters who throw stuff out there just to see how much will stick. Just for the record, being frustrated with the things I just spoke of in no way, shape, or form translates into taking things personally. Unlike others, My only concern is trying to help others shoot better.


You've just described a niche that needs filling and rather than concentrate on calling other people out, perhaps you could take positive and constructive steps and write a comprehensive on-line piece on all the stuff you you've learned over the years as a world class BB shooter. There are a few key archery resources on line that get passed around a lot, but there is a dearth of reliable, high level info on BB - which is one of the main reasons why I took up Oly Recurve and stepped away from my trad bows, there's just more high level info on it. You can help fix that in a more comprehensive way than just internet posts. And maybe you already have and I just don't know about it :dontknow: I'm looking to get more into BB and for that I need good info, not criticism of other posters.


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## itbeso (Jul 6, 2005)

Mr. Roboto said:


> Thanks Ben,
> 
> Gary got me started on tilting my head forward for the shot. I wear glasses, so I cant get on the eyebrow, but I do go all the way down and put the glass on the string. I started that one last Fall, and it is finally become second nature. With this, I can also get my nose to touch the fletching. Up until now, I haven't thought about making the nose-fletch part of my sequence.


Good to know Pete, glad things are improving for you. There are so many little things that make up a good barebow shot routine that it is a shame we can't seem to get that information out there.


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## Warbow (Apr 18, 2006)

itbeso said:


> Good to know Pete, glad things are improving for you. There are so many little things that make up a good barebow shot routine that it is a shame we can't seem to get that information out there.


You have typing fingers, you have the expertise and lots of info to pass along. Make it happen. I'm interested. I'm certain others are, too.


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## itbeso (Jul 6, 2005)

Warbow said:


> Passion is a motivator, but that doesn't make the way they passionately *choose* to respond to something necessarily the most productive response. It is possible to dispute someone's position without harshing on them personally. And if your ideas are better, it should be possible to demonstrate that factually.
> 
> 
> 
> You've just described a niche that needs filling and rather than concentrate on calling other people out, perhaps you could take positive and constructive steps and write a comprehensive on-line piece on all the stuff you you've learned over the years as a world class BB shooter. There are a few key archery resources on line that get passed around a lot, but there is a dearth of reliable, high level info on BB - which is one of the main reasons why I took up Oly Recurve and stepped away from my trad bows, there's just more high level info on it. You can help fix that in a more comprehensive way than just internet posts. And maybe you already have and I just don't know about it :dontknow: I'm looking to get more into BB and for that I need good info, not criticism of other posters.


Warbow, your post doesn't meet the smell test and this is the reason why. You say that you are from California, which is the national hotbed for barebow and traditional archery. I could name you a dozen current and past National champions in those classes from California. They are the most helpful and knowledgeable group of archers you will ever meet. Over the years I have seen each spend many hours sharing that knowledge with others. If you live in California and can't get help with nonsight shooting then that's on you. There is no logical reason for any California archer to switch from nonsight shooting because of lack of help available.


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## Warbow (Apr 18, 2006)

itbeso said:


> Warbow, your post doesn't meet the smell test and this is the reason why. You say that you are from California, which is the national hotbed for barebow and traditional archery. I could name you a dozen current and past National champions in those classes from California. They are the most helpful and knowledgeable group of archers you will ever meet. Over the years I have seen each spend many hours sharing that knowledge with others. If you live in California and can't get help with nonsight shooting then that's on you. There is no logical reason for any California archer to switch from nonsight shooting because of lack of help available.


I think this post kind of summarizes the issue. I say I'm looking for reliable, high level info on BB and suggest that your expertise and stated desire to inform people is an opportunity, one where you can help people. You tell Mr. Roboto "There are so many little things that make up a good barebow shot routine that it is a shame we can't seem to get that information out there." And what is your response to me? That my post smells. I'm seeing a bit of a disconnect between your stated desire to inform people and the follow up.

I don't lack for trad shooters with opinions on how to shoot, but what I found was that consistency of opinion among trad shooters was rather variable, yet the opinions were stated as fact. This is why I said took up Oly Recurve seeking *reliable* high level info. I've since found there are disputes in Oly Recurve, but nothing like the variability in trad shooting. One of the problems is that even high level archers can have a hard time differentiating their personal idiosyncrasies from fundamentals. For example, is not seeing the string really a fundamental? Or is it merely a choice that works well for you? The experiences of a single person are not dispositive on such an issue.


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## steve morley (Dec 24, 2005)

itbeso said:


> SteveYour reference to indoors and not being able to see your arrow tip confuses me. How did putting the string blur in the middle of the shaft enable you to see the arrow tip. Just asking in hopes of learning something new.


It's not in the middle, the string sits on the right hand edge of the shaft, I cannot explain why, just that the arrow stays in my Peripheral vision this way. Before that it would annoyingly just disappear and I would take my eyes of the spot the check aim, really messed with my head.......Must be a throwback from my Instinctive days 

It is possible my left eye was taking over and the String blur helps the right eye stay focused and in control.


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## itbeso (Jul 6, 2005)

Warbow said:


> You have typing fingers, you have the expertise and lots of info to pass along. Make it happen. I'm interested. I'm certain others are, too.


Warbow, If you want to come to tournaments in California, it is difficult to not find a knowledgeable barebow shooter at any given one. You can then digest or spit out whatever is presented to you. On the internet, for every suggestion, there are 20 people telling you a better way, whether they can hit the broad side of a barn or not, not that that is the ultimate criterion. When I started in archery, it took me 7 years before I became proficient. I have coached archers and cut that time down to 1 year and that should be what these forums should be about, not trying to make yourself look like you are some guru. And actually, you should be calling those posters out instead of calling me out, people would have less clutter to pick through.


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## Sanford (Jan 26, 2009)

Warbow said:


> For example, is not seeing the string really a fundamental? Or is it merely a choice that works well for you? The experiences of a single person are not dispositive on such an issue.


You have to have tried it at least once in your career first  String blur is as helpful and passive in use as any other reference, touch or not. Though he made it sound imperative to not see it, I kinda took that as "instinctive" shooters don't look at the arrow lest they ruin their mind.


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## itbeso (Jul 6, 2005)

steve morley said:


> It's not in the middle, the string sits on the right hand edge of the shaft, I cannot explain why, just that the arrow stays in my Peripheral vision this way. Before that it would annoyingly just disappear and I would take my eyes of the spot the check aim, really messed with my head.......Must be a throwback from my Instinctive days
> 
> It is possible my left eye was taking over and the String blur helps the right eye stay focused and in control.


Thanks for the explanation.


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## itbeso (Jul 6, 2005)

Sanford said:


> You have to have tried it at least once in your career first  String blur is as helpful and passive in use as any other reference, touch or not. Though he made it sound imperative to not see it, I kinda took that as "instinctive" shooters don't look at the arrow lest they ruin their mind.


And you know that my mind was ruined long ago.:teeth:


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## itbeso (Jul 6, 2005)

Warbow said:


> I think this post kind of summarizes the issue. I say I'm looking for reliable, high level info on BB and suggest that your expertise and stated desire to inform people is an opportunity, one where you can help people. You tell Mr. Roboto "There are so many little things that make up a good barebow shot routine that it is a shame we can't seem to get that information out there." And what is your response to me? That my post smells. I'm seeing a bit of a disconnect between your stated desire to inform people and the follow up.
> 
> I don't lack for trad shooters with opinions on how to shoot, but what I found was that consistency of opinion among trad shooters was rather variable, yet the opinions were stated as fact. This is why I said took up Oly Recurve seeking *reliable* high level info. I've since found there are disputes in Oly Recurve, but nothing like the variability in trad shooting. One of the problems is that even high level archers can have a hard time differentiating their personal idiosyncrasies from fundamentals. For example, is not seeing the string really a fundamental? Or is it merely a choice that works well for you? The experiences of a single person are not dispositive on such an issue.


Warbow, you are right, my post does summarize the issue. Not because of your references but because it cut through all the bs and was truthful. You are not going to get me to argue about techniques, seeing a string blur, or any of the other things I use to maximize my accuracy, I've got better things to do with my time. The first weekend of june there will be an impressive group of barebow archers shooting the Team Shoot at Nevada City. You could probably get lots of good info to sort out if you were there.


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## Warbow (Apr 18, 2006)

itbeso said:


> Warbow, you are right, my post does summarize the issue. Not because of your references but because it cut through all the bs and was truthful. You are not going to get me to argue about techniques, seeing a string blur, or any of the other things I use to maximize my accuracy, I've got better things to do with my time. The first weekend of june there will be an impressive group of barebow archers shooting the Team Shoot at Nevada City. You could probably get lots of good info to sort out if you were there.


Those were rhetorical questions, questions posed to make a point and not intended for you defend any particular opinion on BB.

You said this: "There are so many little things that make up a good barebow shot routine that it *is a shame we can't seem to get that information out there.*"

Yes, yes it is.


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## Greysides (Jun 10, 2009)

itbeso said:


> If a person sets their centershot according to the book, then adjusts button pressure so that bareshaft groups with fletched arrows, then goes to their point on and is shooting 12 inches right, or even 1 inch right, I have seen it said in print many times that you just adjust button tension till the arrow comes into the middle. *At the point that you adjust any tension, have you not ruined your tune? *


I don't think you have. To me the plunger's main job is to direct the group left or right. Preferably by spring tension thus keeping a standard centreshot setting but if necessary by altering plunger depth.

Yes, it will affect the tune slightly, as Martin Ottossan's post explained but this is the compromise to get 'those' arrows shooting straight with 'those' limbs set at 'that' poundage.

It's a very fine moderation compared to altering the left-right with bow poundage which is the better option but without deep pockets or endless time sometimes those arrows and that bow have to used together, and soon. 

As regards moving the string blur onto the target face at a particular point... you have to remember that the arrow at full draw isn't actually going to fly down along the line of the arrow at full draw. Unless maybe you've set the tune up to gun barrel it. There will be a slight moderation of that line as the back of the arrow is bent on finger release. (According to the node theory which if not scientifically correct at least gives an explanation that can be used as a guideline to work from)
Yes, you are aiming with tip but not necessarily looking completely straight down the shaft.

.......as I see it.


Perhaps a moderator could split this thread to keep the scarcity of BB coaching element separate to the tuning element for ease of reading...?

We do need a wide ranging discussion on BB tuning as it's a subject with little info available and all opinions are valuable but we could without the diversion.


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## Warbow (Apr 18, 2006)

Greysides said:


> Perhaps a moderator could split this thread to keep the scarcity of BB coaching element separate to the tuning element for ease of reading...?
> 
> We do need a wide ranging discussion on BB tuning as it's a subject with little info available and all opinions are valuable but we could without the diversion.


I'd be fine with that, but I think it would be a BandAid on a more systemic problem. I think it might be appropriate to have a "Debate-free" thread tag for technical discussions on BB, no calling out posters or personal arguments. This is something a number of trad forums have had to implement, and now that BB is getting more airtime here we may need rules to deal with the type of arguments that sometimes come with it.


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## Greysides (Jun 10, 2009)

Greysides said:


> As regards moving the string blur onto the target face at a particular point... you have to remember that the arrow at full draw isn't actually going to fly down along the line of the arrow at full draw. Unless maybe you've set the tune up to gun barrel it. There will be a slight moderation of that line as the back of the arrow is bent on finger release. (According to the node theory which if not scientifically correct at least gives an explanation that can be used as a guideline to work from)


This is what I am referencing....from the Easton Tuning Guide..


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## itbeso (Jul 6, 2005)

Greysides said:


> I don't think you have. To me the plunger's main job is to direct the group left or right. Preferably by spring tension thus keeping a standard centreshot setting but if necessary by altering plunger depth.
> 
> Yes, it will affect the tune slightly, as Martin Ottossan's post explained but this is the compromise to get 'those' arrows shooting straight with 'those' limbs set at 'that' poundage.
> 
> ...


Aidan, I really don't pay attention to the technical issues. I do know that when I tune my bow properly, I do not have to go back and forth adjusting plunger tension when going from short to medium to long distances. I see competing archers doing this constantly in tournaments and , to me, this is a result of not tuning for barebow shooting. When I have made the statement that tuning for barebow shooting is different from oly style tuning, I get skewered on these forums so let the so called experts have at it.


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## Greysides (Jun 10, 2009)

Ben, I think there's a couple of different points there in answer to your post.



> When I have made the statement that tuning for barebow shooting is different from oly style tuning, I get skewered on these forums


I think that it makes sense that for gap shooting once you've an arrow that flies straight (along your line of sight) then distance is irrelevant... a matter of how high do you hold arm. 
So, Olympic tuning would be okay provided the end result is an arrow that 'flies straight'.

For SW, then distance comes into it. And to complicate things, it varies with the archer. When you're crawling for string-walking, the length of time the arrow is on the string changes with crawls, as does the jump up the nock experiences on release, and, hand-in-hand with that, the period of 'dry-fire' as the slack in the string is taken up and the string gains momentum while the arrow is still not moving forward.

Beiter have a classic clip on YouTube or their website that shows this in slow-mo.

Add in differences in an archer's release and what you end up with arrows that have a tendency to go one way off-centre at short crawls and the other at long. 
For myself, and Limbwalker I believe (if memory serves) that's a stiff tendency at short distance and a weak tendency at the distances under the nock. For Martin Ottossan and, what seems like, most of everybody else it is the opposite.

Now, I'm deliberately using the word 'tendency'. Here's why. We've already seen explained how fletched shafts have a more dampened reaction to plunger changes than bareshafts. The same seems to happen with dynamic spine changes. In other words, as an example and in my case, if the 5m fletched arrows are to the left at 9 o'clock in the 5 ring field face then the bareshafts will likely be in the 3 at 9 o'clock.

Now, throw in some torsionally resistant limbs to go with my poor release and the fletched are dead-centre while the bareshafts are in the 4.

On the occasion I have a really slick release the fletched are still dead-centre and the bareshafts are in the 5.


The point of that explanation is that while fletched arrows can be gotten to fly straight at all distances, the bareshafts are likely to be varying from left to middle to right as distances change. As we score with fletched arrows and not bareshafts that's good enough for most if it can be achieved.

Now, if we could tune such that bareshafts came as close as possible to flying straight at all distances then we'd have a very forgiving set up and I could relax a little more about my release. 

The plunger adjustment method seems to have been used by Mark Applegate and Ty Pelfry (to good effect) and maybe it's use comes from their success.

I know string walkers that aim off on some shots, others that alter the string alignment and some that gap/point-of-aim shoot the closer shots. A lot of middle ranking (not an insult, and not aimed at anyone) string-walkers don't fuss about tuning they just get on with using what they've got however they have to. It surprises me that they shoot the great scores they do. However, the 'elite' string-walkers generally seem to be a lot more clued in about tuning.

Ben, if you can shoot straight at all distances without worrying about plunger changes then that's great as you don't need to fuss about this and can concentrate on practice, which is much more interesting. I just wonder how much of that shooting straight comes from the limbs you are using..... as I think a lot of mine comes from the same source. 

I think we will see a lot more of the torsionally resistant limbs that are out there showing up in international field shooting as it moderates some of the left-right spine variation we have to deal with. 

The limbs people are/were using are likely to influence/have influenced how they tune/tuned.

Anyhow, my point is that Olympic tuning may form part of tuning for string-walking but there's a whole lot more to cope with after that. You can only tune Olympic-wise for one distance.


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## itbeso (Jul 6, 2005)

Greysides said:


> Ben, I think there's a couple of different points there in answer to your post.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Aidan, thanks for the comprehensive and polite reply. My one comment to your post would be that I feel anyone can tune their arrows to shoot down the middle from 5-50 meters. It takes tuning out of the accepted line of thinking. Hint: barebow tune in my opinion usually involves being closer to or at center shot on the riser in order to get the arrow to shoot the middle at short to long distance.


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## kenn1320 (Aug 28, 2004)

itbeso said:


> Aidan, thanks for the comprehensive and polite reply. My one comment to your post would be that I feel anyone can tune their arrows to shoot down the middle from 5-50 meters. It takes tuning out of the accepted line of thinking. Hint: barebow tune in my opinion usually involves being closer to or at center shot on the riser in order to get the arrow to shoot the middle at short to long distance.


Ben my 3 under bows tune as you suggest, but SW bows "will not" tune in this fashion from my limited experience. I can tune one crawl and be spot on, but the minute I walk up or down from that point the tune changes. This is why some move string blur and or adjust plunger. Do you SW Ben? And yes, I know of you and your accomplishments, but not your chosen style of addressing the target. 8O)


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## Greysides (Jun 10, 2009)

itbeso said:


> My one comment to your post would be that I feel anyone can tune their arrows to shoot down the middle from 5-50 meters. It takes tuning out of the accepted line of thinking. Hint: barebow tune in my opinion usually involves being closer to or at center shot on the riser in order to get the arrow to shoot the middle at short to long distance.


I appreciate your hint, I'll take all the help I can get. 

Have you found that the case for all brands of limbs?

I had a bow tuned for 5m to 80m+ once. Arrows straight at all distances. Was more by accident than any application of intelligence. Hex6 limbs. Turns out my centreshot setting was a mirror image of the conventional one. Arrow tip aligned on the inside (RHS) of the string.......Personally I credit the limbs and 'stiff' arrows.

Kenn, my 'chosen style of addressing the target' usually involves profanity.


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## itbeso (Jul 6, 2005)

kenn1320 said:


> Ben my 3 under bows tune as you suggest, but SW bows "will not" tune in this fashion from my limited experience. I can tune one crawl and be spot on, but the minute I walk up or down from that point the tune changes. This is why some move string blur and or adjust plunger. Do you SW Ben? And yes, I know of you and your accomplishments, but not your chosen style of addressing the target. 8O)


Kenn, since coming back to recurve, I have started stringwalking. This was a new situation to me and took some time to get used to. What threw me initially was not being able to set my bow up to hit the middle from against the nock to my longest crawl down the string. Once that dilemma was figured out, it is quite easy for me to tune new setups that, for me, shoot down the middle all the way thru my crawls. I will say again that if you are taking your aiming focus off the arrow tip and looking at string blur or any other peripheral distraction, then, in my opinion, you are hurting your shot.


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## itbeso (Jul 6, 2005)

Greysides said:


> I appreciate your hint, I'll take all the help I can get.
> 
> Have you found that the case for all brands of limbs?
> 
> ...


Aidan, I have seen some posts where the op has stated that the border limbs tune closer to center shot because of their torsional stability. I can't confirm that because I get the same tune with W&W limbs also. My arrows aren't stiff in my opinion. I'm shooting 500 spine out of anywhere from 46-50.5 pounds, 28 3/4 inches long, 100 grain point.


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## Blumanc (Mar 25, 2015)

itbeso said:


> Kenn, since coming back to recurve, I have started stringwalking. This was a new situation to me and took some time to get used to. What threw me initially was not being able to set my bow up to hit the middle from against the nock to my longest crawl down the string. Once that dilemma was figured out, it is quite easy for me to tune new setups that, for me, shoot down the middle all the way thru my crawls. I will say again that if you are taking your aiming focus off the arrow tip and looking at string blur or any other peripheral distraction, then, in my opinion, you are hurting your shot.



Itbeso, I'm new to archery and especially stringwalking and would welcome information on your tuning methods as barebow info is somewhat scarce and scattered on the Internet and non existent within the group of archers that I shoot with, many thanks.


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## J. Wesbrock (Dec 17, 2003)

itbeso said:


> Aidan, I really don't pay attention to the technical issues. I do know that when I tune my bow properly, I do not have to go back and forth adjusting plunger tension when going from short to medium to long distances. I see competing archers doing this constantly in tournaments and , to me, this is a result of not tuning for barebow shooting. When I have made the statement that tuning for barebow shooting is different from oly style tuning, I get skewered on these forums so let the so called experts have at it.


I've heard about folks having to adjust their plungers for different crawls, but I've never had to do that. Even for NFAA Field -- 20 feet to 80 yards -- my tune puts my shot down the line through all my crawls. I've been shooting with Scott Antczak for years, and I've never seen him use different plunger setting for different crawls either.

Regarding being skewered...you're not kidding. Sometimes I find it a lot easier to help people privately instead of on public forums.


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## kenn1320 (Aug 28, 2004)

J. Wesbrock said:


> I've heard about folks having to adjust their plungers for different crawls, but I've never had to do that. Even for NFAA Field -- 20 feet to 80 yards -- my tune puts my shot down the line through all my crawls. I've been shooting with Scott Antczak for years, and I've never seen him use different plunger setting for different crawls either.
> 
> Regarding being skewered...you're not kidding. Sometimes I find it a lot easier to help people privately instead of on public forums.





itbeso said:


> Kenn, since coming back to recurve, I have started stringwalking. This was a new situation to me and took some time to get used to. What threw me initially was not being able to set my bow up to hit the middle from against the nock to my longest crawl down the string. Once that dilemma was figured out, it is quite easy for me to tune new setups that, for me, shoot down the middle all the way thru my crawls. I will say again that if you are taking your aiming focus off the arrow tip and looking at string blur or any other peripheral distraction, then, in my opinion, you are hurting your shot.


If you guys can do this with a bare shaft, Im all ears. Admittedly Ive only worked on SW off a shelf bow for hunting, so maybe some of the secret is in the plungers spring tension.


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## Harperman (Sep 3, 2006)

limbwalker said:


> There is a good reason I'm staying out of this discussion DC.


.....


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## itbeso (Jul 6, 2005)

J. Wesbrock said:


> I've heard about folks having to adjust their plungers for different crawls, but I've never had to do that. Even for NFAA Field -- 20 feet to 80 yards -- my tune puts my shot down the line through all my crawls. I've been shooting with Scott Antczak for years, and I've never seen him use different plunger setting for different crawls either.
> 
> Regarding being skewered...you're not kidding. Sometimes I find it a lot easier to help people privately instead of on public forums.


:thumbs_up. Much easier and more rewarding.


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## itbeso (Jul 6, 2005)

kenn1320 said:


> If you guys can do this with a bare shaft, Im all ears. Admittedly Ive only worked on SW off a shelf bow for hunting, so maybe some of the secret is in the plungers spring tension.


Kenn, I guess I'm not your guy. I don't shoot bare shafts in competition so I have never used that method to tune my bows. I tune for groups at my point on with fletched shafts. And yes, the plunger tension is invaluable as is using the proper tension spring in the plunger. Having said that, the same concept applies when using a springy, the proper oz. springy, and the right centershot with the springy. I've yet to see a barebow archer fine tune their fletched arrow to a bare shaft and then have the arrow shoot right down the middle for them at their point on, without adjusting spring tension or center shot, which , in my opinion, just screws up the tune they just achieved.


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## itbeso (Jul 6, 2005)

Blumanc said:


> Itbeso, I'm new to archery and especially stringwalking and would welcome information on your tuning methods as barebow info is somewhat scarce and scattered on the Internet and non existent within the group of archers that I shoot with, many thanks.


I'm a bit of a rebel in that I think too much is made of the difficulty of tuning recurves. I will cut thru a lot of technical things and just say this. When setting up a recurve for barebow, make sure your limbs are centered on the riser. try using a brace height in the 8.75-9.00 inch range, initially set your nock height at 3/4 inch high and your arrow dead centershot. Assuming you are using an arrow within your proper spine range, find your point on and use the plunger tension to move the impact of your arrow into the middle of the dot. This is where you should tune for groups. If you are consistently shooting high and low, it is a nock height problem. If you are consistently shooting right and left, it is a centershot problem. Yes, it really is that simple.


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## Greysides (Jun 10, 2009)

itbeso said:


> I don't shoot bare shafts in competition so I have never used that method to tune my bows. I tune for groups at my point on with fletched shafts.


For Olympic archers the bareshaft comparison is a basic set up after setting up the bow with default settings. After that it is followed by group tuning using all variables.

After all that is completed a bareshaft comparison may be done again but this time its function is to find that individuals best bareshaft location for future set ups.

The preferred bareshaft low and right is a default setting used until proven otherwise.

Ultimately, group tuning is the final decider.


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## kenn1320 (Aug 28, 2004)

itbeso said:


> Kenn, I guess I'm not your guy. I don't shoot bare shafts in competition so I have never used that method to tune my bows. I tune for groups at my point on with fletched shafts. And yes, the plunger tension is invaluable as is using the proper tension spring in the plunger. Having said that, the same concept applies when using a springy, the proper oz. springy, and the right centershot with the springy. I've yet to see a barebow archer fine tune their fletched arrow to a bare shaft and then have the arrow shoot right down the middle for them at their point on, without adjusting spring tension or center shot, which , in my opinion, just screws up the tune they just achieved.


 When I get a bareshaft hitting where I'm aiming, the fletched go in the same spot. Ive heard mention of "group" tuning, do you have a minute to explain your method or a source I could read up on the topic? Do you grab several spines fletched and start shooting for groups, then widdle it down to point weight and or length? Seems for my level of accuracy, the fletching hides so many things that I dont see variants in my fletched adjustments.


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## Mr. Roboto (Jul 13, 2012)

itbeso said:


> I'm a bit of a rebel in that I think too much is made of the difficulty of tuning recurves. I will cut thru a lot of technical things and just say this. When setting up a recurve for barebow, make sure your limbs are centered on the riser. try using a brace height in the 8.75-9.00 inch range, initially set your nock height at 3/4 inch high and your arrow dead centershot. Assuming you are using an arrow within your proper spine range, find your point on and use the plunger tension to move the impact of your arrow into the middle of the dot. This is where you should tune for groups. If you are consistently shooting high and low, it is a nock height problem. If you are consistently shooting right and left, it is a centershot problem. Yes, it really is that simple.


Thanks Ben, This is generally what I normally do, and getting arrows to fly straight has been pretty straight forward. Usually takes about an hour to do at the flat range for distances out to 60 yards. Then on to memorizing new gaps.

When I started down the ILF route, I decided to follow the "book" because ILF barebow is "supposed" to be the same as a ILF Oly rig except no sight, mile long stab, and clicker, right? I follow the book, align the limbs, got bare shafts to group with the fletched. I have been trying different draw weights, brace heights, nock positions, different arrow spines, and tip weights, and yet everything groups to the left of the aiming point. The book says to adjust the "sight" to get things aligned and don't move the plunger position.

So, I am going back to my old way. Life was simpler and more enjoyable.


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## Mr. Roboto (Jul 13, 2012)

But, for those of you out there that are more familiar with the "book" method, how do you go about getting centershot to align up? 

The book says that once the bare shafts are grouping with fletched arrows, and walk back shooting results in vertical changing arrow groups, the bow is tuned. The books never say to adjust plunger position to get left-right alignment, they say adjust sight. The book says that if you cant get left-right to align its a clearance problem. But that isn't always the case, right?

There are a lot of people that are experts on this topic, so it would be good to hear how they get their center shots to align once the bare shafts are grouping with the fletched arrows.

This is a great topic


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## J. Wesbrock (Dec 17, 2003)

Pete,

Getting bare shafts and fletched arrows to group together is a starting point, not a final destination. Unlike Ben, I start with bare shaft tuning because I find it easier for me to get in the ballpark. After that, the location, size and shape of groups dictate my fine tuning.


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## rsarns (Sep 23, 2008)

When I am tuning for new arrows, I start with full length and 100 gr tips as my standard, normally I know I need something in the 430-500 spine range for most of my limbs (46-48#'s OTF) I then fletch 3 arrows and take 2 BS's. First I set my plunger to stiff as per tuning for tens. (really not sure it matters tho). I align my centershot to tip just to the right edge of string. I start at 10 yards, and see if the BS is close. Here is where I deviate a bit. If the shafts are close, I play with brace height and draw weight to get as close as I can. (If the BS is not close, I then trim or add tip weight). Once I am getting the BS close (I want it weak just a tad), I adjust plunger to medium setting and shoot thru paper. Adjust as necessary and then walk back tune. If my bare shafts will fly to 30 yards in the group I am confident and finish walk back tuning to 60 yards. Funny thing here is I am fighting to get my point on down for a 40 yard max 3D coming up, and am switching arrows around... so need to go do some tuning this morning. LOL Oh, the reason I want the BS to be slightly weak is once fletched it stiffens the arrow. As far as nock height, I start at 1/2" now and adjust from there.


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## Sanford (Jan 26, 2009)

Mr. Roboto said:


> The book says that once the bare shafts are grouping with fletched arrows, and walk back shooting results in vertical changing arrow groups, the bow is tuned. The books never say to adjust plunger position to get left-right alignment, they say adjust sight. The book says that if you cant get left-right to align its a clearance problem. But that isn't always the case, right?


No, it's not always the case. Your line of sight might not be congruent with the tuned path of the arrow either from your anchor position or form. You can move a sight without aiming off at the point by your vision, but can't move the point without aiming off in your vision. If you want to use the tip in the horizontal and be point on, assuming you are not already, you have to tune the arrow's path differently. This takes your arrow out of tune by the "book". It's for good reason for a BB shooter, but the book is talking about something totally different - how to tune a bow and arrow for the most efficient and forgiving flight travel. It's just not covering how to tune if you want to tune to where you look - a different subject.

I basically tune like J. Wesbrock and shoot sighted and unsighted. I don't string walk. The arrows go where I look by the point and shaft, and I tune as needed by plunger and centershot on finer needs.


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## itbeso (Jul 6, 2005)

rsarns said:


> When I am tuning for new arrows, I start with full length and 100 gr tips as my standard, normally I know I need something in the 430-500 spine range for most of my limbs (46-48#'s OTF) I then fletch 3 arrows and take 2 BS's. First I set my plunger to stiff as per tuning for tens. (really not sure it matters tho). I align my centershot to tip just to the right edge of string. I start at 10 yards, and see if the BS is close. Here is where I deviate a bit. If the shafts are close, I play with brace height and draw weight to get as close as I can. (If the BS is not close, I then trim or add tip weight). Once I am getting the BS close (I want it weak just a tad), I adjust plunger to medium setting and shoot thru paper. Adjust as necessary and then walk back tune. If my bare shafts will fly to 30 yards in the group I am confident and finish walk back tuning to 60 yards. Funny thing here is I am fighting to get my point on down for a 40 yard max 3D coming up, and am switching arrows around... so need to go do some tuning this morning. LOL Oh, the reason I want the BS to be slightly weak is once fletched it stiffens the arrow. As far as nock height, I start at 1/2" now and adjust from there.


Ren, trust me on this one. If you are 3 under and stringwalking, your best grouping will be close to or at 3/4 inch height on your nock position. Save yourself some valuable time.:smile:


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## 2413gary (Apr 10, 2008)

First thing I do is put my favorite springy on. Second thing I do is set the weight. Then I pick an arrow length and weight to get my point on at 42 yds. I try to stay at the middle to a little stiff on the spine chart. Arrow weight and speed is extremely critical for me to keep my gaps where I want them. 325 gr and 195 fps or faster is where I like it. Then set center shot start with a 1/2" high nock point. Then paper tune with point weight, nocking point or limb bolt weight until I get a 1/4" tear up and left at 10 to 11 on the clock. Then go outside and shoot for center at my point by simply moving my spring until I get perfect line. It's really simple for me I have been shooting the same tune for a long time. And did I say the springy is the Key ?


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## MartinOttosson (May 31, 2011)

grantmac said:


> MartinO posted the most comprehensive BB tuning I've ever seen in a thread on TT a few years back. I forgot to save it and that is a shame since it was amazing.
> 
> Perhaps he has a copy?
> 
> -Grant


Hmm... I´m not sure what that was, but I´ll have a look. 
Something like this maybe? 
http://www4.idrottonline.se/ImageVaultFiles/id_630112/cf_57129/Barebowtrimning.PDF
(in swedish, but maybe you recognize the graphics and then I know what you are searching for)


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## MartinOttosson (May 31, 2011)

Hmm...

@grantmac

It might be this you are talking about:
http://tradtalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=33076&page=3

Check my replies there


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

I know I said I was done here, and at the risk of destroying the palpable tension amongst barebow archers on this forum, for the good of the group I have to agree with both Jason and Ben here.

Ben is spot-on on his 3/4" nock height recommendation for SW (every one of my SW bows have ended up within 1/32" of 3/4 for the final tune).

I also agree with both him and Jason in that once you get close, it's all about getting the arrows to hit where you're looking, not about a "textbook" bare shaft tune.

I do things the same way Jason does - starting out with BS tuning, and then tuning for point of impact. I find BS tuning is a bit of a shortcut to me, and allows me to confirm that I'm starting with the correct draw weight, arrow point weight/length, spine, etc. before I then look at point of impact.

I also agree that I've been able to achieve vertical alignment without plunger tension adjustments. I shot our state field in the barebow division last spring and was shooting from 5 to 50 meters without ever touching my plunger. My 5 meter crawl was about 2" and my 50 meter was index finger touching the nock and point-on. 

Having said all that, I still maintain my position as Ben and Jason's mortal barebow enemy and hope they feel the same way.  LOL.

We can't have all the barebow guys sitting around the campfire singing kumbaya at Nationals. It would completely ruin the image we've all fought so hard (with each other) to create.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Essentially, elite barebow and Olympic archers are doing the same thing. Start out with a good BS tune, then tune for groups or impact. When I'm done fine tuning with either bow, there is a darn good chance the bare shaft isn't going in the middle of the fletched group. It also depends on whether we're talking 60 or 70 meters, 5-50 meters, or 18 meters.


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## Mr. Roboto (Jul 13, 2012)

This is a great topic.

Wow, there is a whole lot more going on to getting a good tune. The books make it sound so simple and easy. I hope I am not the only one eating up all of this vast experience and different tuning styles information. I have booked marked this topic.

Martin, that non linear spring (progressive) spring discussion over at trad talk really blew my mind away. Quick question, how do you know how much your plunger moves when the arrow is shot?

Pete


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## kenn1320 (Aug 28, 2004)

limbwalker said:


> Essentially, elite barebow and Olympic archers are doing the same thing. Start out with a good BS tune, then tune for groups or impact. When I'm done fine tuning with either bow, there is a darn good chance the bare shaft isn't going in the middle of the fletched group. It also depends on whether we're talking 60 or 70 meters, 5-50 meters, or 18 meters.


So lets say you have your BS hitting the X at 30yds and your feltched are as well. What are your next adjustments/steps to group tune that won't move your point of impact that's already where you want it? I'm really looking for 3 under no sw info, but will take what you are willing share. 
How often do you get a BS hitting the X and fletched arrows aren't?


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## grantmac (May 31, 2007)

MartinOttosson said:


> Hmm...
> 
> @grantmac
> 
> ...


That is indeed the one. I admire your attention to detail.

-Grant


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

kenn1320 said:


> So lets say you have your BS hitting the X at 30yds and your feltched are as well. What are your next adjustments/steps to group tune that won't move your point of impact that's already where you want it? I'm really looking for 3 under no sw info, but will take what you are willing share.
> How often do you get a BS hitting the X and fletched arrows aren't?


There are a few things you can do. Nock Height adjustments are the simplest. I will sometimes tweak centershot and then compensate with plunger tension adjustments. Between those two things, you can change the shape and size of your fletched groups without affecting the L/R impact. Having said that, 90% of barebow target archers are not going to be able to tell the difference, and unless I'm just shooting great that day, I won't either. I suspect that much like Ben, I have learned to visually "see" arrow flight and grouping that either satisfies me or it doesn't. I've either discovered, backed into or worked through a few tunes that for one reason or another, produced tiny, tiny groups. Once you see those, you won't be satisfied with anything less. 

But let's not talk about tuning as if it's the holy grail of archery. It's not. An average tune in the hands of a great archer is still going to beat the pants off a great tune in the hands of an average archer.


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## Matt_Potter (Apr 13, 2010)

I'm just a guy in Montana with a hound habit but I've had the pleasure of competing with a bunch of the posters (barebow guys). To a person we are a confident lot and it shows. That's what your tune comes down to it's about you, how you shoot, and what works for you. As soon as you start crawling down the string and aiming with the point at variable distances most traditional tuning goes out the window. Yes the same rules apply but you have to be willing to play and see what works for YOU.

I've found that with compact crawls I can get my arrows to shoot down the middle 5-50 yards - I think vertically stable limbs help with this. 

But if adding or subtracting clicks on your beiter helps then do it its all about what works for you and your form and more importantly what gives you confidence. 

What works for Ben might not work for Jason of me. It's all about playing with it until you figure it out.

Ben - package in the mail to ya.


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## blue_ridge (Mar 20, 2008)

itbeso said:


> I'm a bit of a rebel in that I think too much is made of the difficulty of tuning recurves. I will cut thru a lot of technical things and just say this. When setting up a recurve for barebow, make sure your limbs are centered on the riser. try using a brace height in the 8.75-9.00 inch range, initially set your nock height at 3/4 inch high and your arrow dead centershot. Assuming you are using an arrow within your proper spine range, find your point on and use the plunger tension to move the impact of your arrow into the middle of the dot. This is where you should tune for groups. If you are consistently shooting high and low, it is a nock height problem. If you are consistently shooting right and left, it is a centershot problem. Yes, it really is that simple.


Question: To help me understand the centershot idea and how dynamic spine works, I'd like to know what happens when you are set up centershot and your string is directly behind the shaft. I would worry that if setup centershot, if your string drifts a little left of center on one shot and little right on the next shot, you're having a major effect on dynamic shaft spine. Whereas, if you have the shaft left of center, your string placement will not have a huge effect because the arrow is flexing initially in the same direction each shot and the plunger is dampening that flex even more. I know the arrow flexes left and right like a noodle, but isn't the idea to start it with the string on the same side of the shaft on every shot? Would love someone to explain this relationship so i can better understand it.


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## itbeso (Jul 6, 2005)

blue_ridge said:


> Question: To help me understand the centershot idea and how dynamic spine works, I'd like to know what happens when you are set up centershot and your string is directly behind the shaft. I would worry that if setup centershot, if your string drifts a little left of center on one shot and little right on the next shot, you're having a major effect on dynamic shaft spine. Whereas, if you have the shaft left of center, your string placement will not have a huge effect because the arrow is flexing initially in the same direction each shot and the plunger is dampening that flex even more. I know the arrow flexes left and right like a noodle, but isn't the idea to start it with the string on the same side of the shaft on every shot? Would love someone to explain this relationship so i can better understand it.


blue ridge, My post was meant as a guideline for archers to have a starting point for tuning their bows. It is my belief that you can save a lot of time by starting your tune with the parameters posted. By no means will everyone end up with the same specs, but, again, I think these starting points will get you close.


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## kenn1320 (Aug 28, 2004)

limbwalker said:


> There are a few things you can do. Nock Height adjustments are the simplest. I will sometimes tweak centershot and then compensate with plunger tension adjustments. Between those two things, you can change the shape and size of your fletched groups without affecting the L/R impact. Having said that, 90% of barebow target archers are not going to be able to tell the difference, and unless I'm just shooting great that day, I won't either. I suspect that much like Ben, I have learned to visually "see" arrow flight and grouping that either satisfies me or it doesn't. I've either discovered, backed into or worked through a few tunes that for one reason or another, produced tiny, tiny groups. Once you see those, you won't be satisfied with anything less.
> 
> But let's not talk about tuning as if it's the holy grail of archery. It's not. An average tune in the hands of a great archer is still going to beat the pants off a great tune in the hands of an average archer.


Thanks. I set my nock height to get my point on at the desired distance, so that is essentially a fixed point in "my" equation. I shoot off the shelf, no plunger per the rules, so I adjust it to where Im hitting where Im aiming and thats it. I could maybe adjust center shot and add/reduce tip weight as needed to get a better grouping tune? 

Wish a fellow ibo-trd guy would lend some insight on this "group" tuning. Dewayne? Im assuming longbow guys also do this group tuning and would be limited in their ability to adjust as well.


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## itbeso (Jul 6, 2005)

kenn1320 said:


> Thanks. I set my nock height to get my point on at the desired distance, so that is essentially a fixed point in "my" equation. I shoot off the shelf, no plunger per the rules, so I adjust it to where Im hitting where Im aiming and thats it. I could maybe adjust center shot and add/reduce tip weight as needed to get a better grouping tune?
> 
> Wish a fellow ibo-trd guy would lend some insight on this "group" tuning. Dewayne? Im assuming longbow guys also do this group tuning and would be limited in their ability to adjust as well.


Kenn, why in the world would you possibly affect your tune and grouping by setting your nocking point to get the desired point on unless that nocking point gave you your best grouping? I would think a better grouping arrow at the proper nock height would be more desirable.


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## kenn1320 (Aug 28, 2004)

itbeso said:


> Kenn, why in the world would you possibly affect your tune and grouping by setting your nocking point to get the desired point on unless that nocking point gave you your best grouping? I would think a better grouping arrow at the proper nock height would be more desirable.


No SW in my class, so the last thing I want is a 50yd point on with 20" gaps at closer distances. As it is now a 30yd point on (high nock and high anchor) gives me a 7" gap at 20yds. Closer shots and Im just looking and hoping my mind puts it where it needs to be.


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## MartinOttosson (May 31, 2011)

Mr. Roboto said:


> This is a great topic.
> 
> Wow, there is a whole lot more going on to getting a good tune. The books make it sound so simple and easy. I hope I am not the only one eating up all of this vast experience and different tuning styles information. I have booked marked this topic.
> 
> ...


Most of the time I don´t know, but I have a kind of a movement indicator made for a Cavalier Master plunger. It´s a small ring of soft leather that slides on to the piston, just so tight so it doesnt affect the motion, but still stays where its put. So if I push the plunger in, the leather ring moves and then stay at the deepest position when the shot is gone.


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## ArrowCrazy (Feb 25, 2011)

itbeso said:


> Warbow, people who are passionate rarely do things without passion. It seems to me that there is a good movement to bring the barebow class into the mainstream. However, in my opinion, that movement is set back daily by uninformed posters putting out information that sets back the curious, who are anxious to be properly informed. I do get passionate when I see garbage being presented as valid fact, especially by archers and coaches who don't have a clue as to how to shoot or set up to shoot barebow. Wouldn't it be wonderful if any new archer wanting to learn barebow, could get info that would cut their learning curve in half? I realize that is not going to happen under the current formats and the serial posters who throw stuff out there just to see how much will stick. Just for the record, being frustrated with the things I just spoke of in no way, shape, or form translates into taking things personally. Unlike others, My only concern is trying to help others shoot better.


Excellent post!


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## High Plains (Feb 29, 2008)

Awesome thread, thanks guys. :smile:


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## itbeso (Jul 6, 2005)

I was out practicing today, trying to set a barebow up for the USA archery outdoor target Nationals/ As I was getting the tune I wanted I realized that some of my previous posts could be misleading and lacking in information. When I refer to barebow recurve, I am referring to that syle utilizing stringwalking when I gave some of the parameters I use to start my tunes.Today, setting up a bow that I will be shooting 3 under touching the nock on all arrows, I ended up with a nock height of 9/16 inch which has been the neighborhood I usually end up in when setting a bow up for shooting trad. I didn't want archers who are shooting all arrows against the nock to think they should necessarily start at the 3/4 height I had posted for barebow.Still loving the center centershot though. Another interesting turn of events today. I usually shoot 100 grain tips in my 500 spine arrows. The last couple of days I have been trying heavier tips for the target nationals, my thinking being that the heavier tips would track better in the wind, which they should. After many different combos, I ended up with 90 grain points which shot the middle consistently at 62 yards. Now , I've got to shoot them at 60 meters (65.4 yards) for the next month and a half.


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