# Testing of Camouflage Patterns



## viperarcher

*Camo*

I believe that camo should most reflect the surrounding area you are intending to hunt another words match the terrian your hunting in! Its mostly about shadows and light and uv brightness.


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## Rchr

*Camo patterns*

SCT146,
This a great topic. I have seen many advertisements and everybody seems to show how their product works best. Every time I go to an Outdoor store like Cabelas, Bass Pro, Gander Mountain or Sportsmans warehouse I always seem to spend a good while checking out all the new camo's. Then there is the theory that deer and other game do not see colors or at least not very well (except turkeys) so camo doesn't matter. At a friends ranch that we hunt hogs during the off season we noticed that they take off when we turn on our red sight lights (we hunt them at night). Last time we hunted I let them eat for about 10 minutes so that they could get comfortable and as soon as I turned on my little red light they took off. Minutes later when the herd went to my friends stand and he saw them coming he turned on the light while they were still about 70 yards away. They stopped and took off into the brush and didn't come back. So we know they can see red.
I have two camo's that work pretty much in any terrain. I am in South Texas so most of the brush is green most of the year except in Jan. The first is called Bushlan, it is a camouflage that was designed here in south Texas and is pretty much just sold in Texas (I believe). When I first saw it I thought it was the ugliest Hawaiin shirt I had ever seen. Then my friend told me that it was a new camo, and I still thought it looked ugly. When I finally saw that camo in the brush I became an instant fan. Others that have seem me with that camo for the first time have also had the same impression as I have. There is a guy that is making some pop up blinds here in Texas called RED ARROW blinds I believe. He is using Bushlan because he says that he has used in Texas, Colorado and Africa and that it is the Camo that has blended that best. A friend of mine that moved to Colorado a few years ago, came back and to my surprise one of the first things he did was to restock on the Bushlan Camo he says that when he uses it in Aug/Sept that it works great.
The second camo that I like to use is an oldie but a goodie and one that the military Special Forces still uses because of its versatility. Tiger Stripe it is still used today because it works very well in most green conditions and even in treestands.

My .02¢
Rchr


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## DwayneR

Good Question!

Here is my experience from MY neck of the woods...Just like you say, it should blend you in the background.

In the winter time, how much "GREEN" (as in green leaves in some camo) do you see? ZELCH.

How many "twigs" do you see??? ZELCH, only on the ground.

What is the color of *most* trees during the winter time? DARK brown, or almost BLACK. (except for some trees :smile

Then, one must look at *their* hunting area. Some places will have green throughout the whole year!

One thing I have found out for sure here. A perfectly BLACK pancho will CAMO you better than *any* camo out there if you are in a tree or on the ground. that means wear black everything. This has been proven to me, my friends, and others, time and time again. They have a more difficult time finding me and others if we wear pure black than any kind of Camo. Black Jeans and Black shirts will bend you in so good in the trees, people will not see you. Yet with different kinds of Camo, they spot you very quickly.

The only camo we have not experimented with, is the Ghilli <sp> suit.

Dwayne


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## PABowhunt4life

If the area is green - Predator Spring Green

If it is more brown and dry colored- Predator Fall Brown or ASAT

More in to the gray, wintery months - Predator Fall Gray or Cabela's Outfitter Camo


There was a post done a LONG time ago that basically showed that Predator and ASAT blended in better than the other big name camos, but that does not mean that the big names are bad by any means, especially now since Realtree and Mossy Oak are lightening up the patterns instead of producing dark, blobby patterns with leaves :darkbeer:


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## moecarama

Someone did a test on these last year viewed from 20 ft. up


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## moecarama

Ok here is the thread it came from http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=267678&highlight=asat


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## BDOG6351

*bow*

couple questions... what spectrum range do deer see? shorter/longer wavelengths? I thought I read this somewhere, there must be some tech info.

Humans see in a very small range, but light is a mixture of wavelengths (and our band is a narrow)... what makes up the spectrum.. UV, visible, ultraviolet, infrared (there are others but thats all I can think of).

I think a camo test is necessary- Im just not big up on what deer see. Recreating light environments, then measuring the light and controling as a constant. further recreating an environmental tone and then taking a snapshot. its a long winded event.

Im sure we have some experts on AT.


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## BDOG6351

????? no responses??????


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## VidorBoy

*article on wavelength*

http://www.qdma.com/articles/details.asp?id=48


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## the engineer

*camo*

i live in central florida, and it is GREEN 24/7, 365 days a year. the best camo i've found for our area is DK Flatwoods. it was made here in south florida, but an alabama company bought the company and is now making it there. it has a green/brown palmetto print, with muscodine grape leaves on it as well. their website is dkflatwoods.net.


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## 963369

I saw a video some time ago and in that video Paul Brunner suggested that Rhodesian camo was by far the best camo in trees and on the ground. After researching the pattern a bit, I must say he had made his point well. The stuff is tremendous and would buy it in a heartbeat if it were widely available in, say, No Trace. The combo would be very very hard to beat. And, as long as it was manufactured WITHOUT UV brighteners, you could say camo dominance in the marketplace(*but who listens to us, anyhow*?). BTW---found a site where they do sell Rhodesian camo---Trident Military supply. It is reproduction, but should work well----just don't know if it contains brighteners.


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## Will K

*Cool*

That rhodesian stuff looks a lot like predator (or vice versa). I like that pattern a lot.


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## rauchtown

I have done extensive study on camo patterns, black and white photos, color photos, from the ground to the ground, from the ground to the tree, etc. The best camo pattern I have found is ASAT closely followed by Enigma.


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## BDOG6351

rauchtown said:


> I have done extensive study on camo patterns, black and white photos, color photos, from the ground to the ground, from the ground to the tree, etc. The best camo pattern I have found is ASAT closely followed by Enigma.


rauchtown, not sure if you still have this info collectively but do you have the time to report this info to us? I am interested in seeing how and what you did in your study.

thanks
Jon


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## Sleazy_E

It is my understanding that open patterns actually blend better then the detailed patters of most of todays camo..... That stuff with the fine detail is made more to appeal to the eye of the hunter than to hide you from game.... Deer see in black and white and shades of grey as do most mammals..... they obviosly are red/green color blind... because if they werent then when hunters wear the bright hunter orange the deer would pick them out everytime... and no one would kill a deer during gun season.

The problem with detailed camo is that after you get about 30 feet (only 10 yards) you look like a blob of the primary color (ussualy brown).... this is doing nothing to hide your outline or break you up...... that is why ASAT and Predator ect..... do so well.... they are very open patterns and blend well on the ground and great in the treestand....

Turkey hunting is different... they do see color and thier eye sight is so good that the detailed camo will actuallyhelp you.... While they are not as observant as deer they see better and that little bit of detail may be just the thing you need to seal the deal.....

For the record I am not sponsered by any camo company... and I buy what is on sale most of the time. although I do intend to pick up some ASAT or Predator, or something along those lines.... I am not brand specific I will buy what ever I can get in size cheapest.


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## Rchr

Don't forget; a good camo will prevent others from seeing you thus keeping your favorite hunting spot all your own.:wink:


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## MIKEINEUGENE

The one thing i never do is wear the same camo pattern for pants as i do for my jacket or shirt.I am new to bowhunting but i have used a handgun or muzzleloader for years and getting close got much easier when i used different patterns for jacket,boots,gloves,headnet and pants.Your profile may blend in with a camo pattern that matches the surroundings but it still is the profile of a human and that will not put meat in the freezer.You can significantly reduce your chances of getting busted by mixing it up in my experience.


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## darkstar

Indians had no camo, yet they walked right up on game. It has more to do with your movements or lack of than any camo pattern, at least on the ground. In a tree its a little different, your standing out against the sky and are much more likely to be seen, so if in a treestand and your trying to let the animals get close for bowhunting its a different game. Im gonna try Mossy Oak tree stand, looks like an interesting pattern.


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## DwayneR

As we are talking about camo, there is one thing that most everyone seems to ignore.

I see these pictures of Camo, and are still not impressed with them. Every picture I have seen is of the Non-movement kind. A good example can be shown with the pictures uploaded by a member.

the pictures show TWO different kind of Camo. A White camo with break up and a Dark Camo with breakup. Not only that, the person is Hanging away from the tree.

Do you take your shots hanging out from a tree like that? I don't. That white camo is worthless when you are using the tree as a background breakup. Every move you make will be like chalk on a chalkboard. Easily seen and witnessed by anyone.

And lets look at the other side of the coin. *IF* you take shots like that hanging out from a tree *WITH* DARK camo, you are a sitting duck. Every move you make will be seen like a piece of cake.

Since most people use trees for background breakup, WHITE camo is worthless. 

If we are to judge Camo, it is all about movement to take the shot. And that movement hopefully should be covered up by the Camo. 

Dwayne


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## Atheist

This is the early season getup that I just purchased:


















And I intend to use the pants in late season +









In real tree AP:









Early season here is really just as the colors are beginning to change and by November1 there are no leaves and usually some snow on the ground intermittenly (Michigan's UP)

I will still hunt the early season but stand hunt the latter in either hemlocks or hardwoods. In either case, I always build a fortress out of pine and other branches and have a very have back drop. Even if deer can't see colors, I want the hues to blend well. Their visual accuity is still pretty precise from what I've seen and they spend their lives getting better and better at detecting predators in the hue of their natural world.


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## lefteye

Put a hang-on stand with a black strap in a tree. Walk 50 to 100 yards from the stand. Look at the stand. What do you see? The black strap!!!

Next, look for something else in the timber that is black. If you see something black, it is either a piece of coal, a skunk, or an Angus steer or cow.

Predator and ASAT are harder for the human eye to see in a tree stand, and may be the best for bow hunting deer from a tree stand.

For turkey hunting, camo that looks like a photograph of your background while sitting on the ground is best.


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## shooter31

I've surfed around the net looking for all I can on animal's color vision. From what I've been able to read, a deer's vision is skewed to the short wave side of things making it similar to someone with a red color blindness (Protanopia). That means they see the blue/purple side of the spectrum and into the UV very well but the red side very poorly. Very poorly meaning they don't distinguish the color very well. Essentially they trade the red cones like we have, which provide color and clarity, for more rods which detect movement and see in low light better. Here is how colors appear to someone with Protanopia (I'll have to take their word for it). The left dots are normal, the right are adjusted. And how those old school red flannel shirts appear.


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## vyrtual

I'll try and post some pics of my guillie suit when it gets here, then maybe I'll have some comparisons. But from what I've seen, a guillie suit breaks up your outline and blends in with brush far better than any camo I've owned


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## DirtNapTV

*Camo that is not seen*

Try Custom Camo Tomaflage, it is unreal with green in the woods for spring and early bow season. This year 2008 the tomaflage fall pattern will be introduced and it has the fall colors in the pattern not the black colors in other camo patterns.

The spring pattern has the green colors you see in the spring woods.

www.Tomaflage.com


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## pdj

Camo does nothing more than breakup the "human shape" along with minimizing a diffference in reflective qualities with the surroundings. I have hunted from Canada to Florida and have found nothing that works better than ASAT.Typically I see more game closer than the others I hunt with.I also believe that a plaid in similar colors as ASAT or Predator can be very effective.Animals senses seemed to be calmed and I found I can get away with alot more movement using these camos than ones that tend to blob out and show the human ouline very well(the ones that typically look like a tree,branches etc).Playing the wind along with knowing how and when to move are probably more important than camo anyway.


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## Dooby

*learn from nature*

Some of the most impressive forest hunters are tigers. They are orange with black stripes And a white belly.
This should confirm that it doesn't take mulch to break your silhouette if you are alert and know when/how to move. It's so much more about sound, smell, and motion than colors and patterns (unless you're hunting people).

Wear whatever puts you in your "zone".


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## EDDAKA

Did any of you know that even when you are looking at really green forest.(like here in east texas in the summer) That you see 60-80% black and brown and not green? Like the guy above said, wear all black.


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## newby1967

*camo*

always do your homework meaning know the area you will be hunting in and then match your camo clothes to that. i have a combo of natural gear and mossy oak/realtree.blends very well for were i hunt. my brother in law walked passed me one day being no more than 10 ft from me.movement is the biggest hunt buster and then add scent


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## atkins72

I am partail to Nat Gear. From my experience it does a great job in most situations. I use it from early season duck hunting to deer, turkey etc. This year I had a tom just yards away and he never had any idea. 
That being said I think movement will give you away more than anything. Maybe second to smell. I have shot coyotes in jeans and a white t-shirt. As well I have shot deer in Brown Carhart work pants and a brown sweat shirt. (with rifles, but inside 50yards). 

I have had so many animals get very close to me while not wearing camo, and none had any idea I was there until I moved.
I hunt a lot of public land and my camo is more to hide me from other people, to not give away my spots.

Break up your profile, hide your scent, don't move and you will be fine in most cases.


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## heritagehunters

Here's a review we did on a 3D suit that shows some of the stuff mentioned in the first post. The Grayscale photos really show the effectiveness of these types of suits (as does the video)
*http://www.theheritagehunters.com/fieldtesting.php*


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## willie

Critters zoom in on the human form.

I've had deer spook at my "man shadow" cast on the ground below my stand before..

Open patterns - such as Predator or ASATS is the way to go..Breaks up that human form.

Deer and turkeys are more prone to pick you out as much if you are in a sitting position. 

Of course movement is the BIG no-no.

The pictures posted might have shown better *IF* the camera had been the same distance from EACH subject camo.

Here is another one................

http://whitetail.com/camo1.html


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## 206Moose

willie said:


> Critters zoom in on the human form.
> 
> I've had deer spook at my "man shadow" cast on the ground below my stand before..
> 
> Open patterns - such as Predator or ASATS is the way to go..Breaks up that human form.
> 
> Deer and turkeys are more prone to pick you out as much if you are in a sitting position.
> 
> Of course movement is the BIG no-no.
> 
> The pictures posted might have shown better *IF* the camera had been the same distance from EACH subject camo.
> 
> Here is another one................
> 
> http://whitetail.com/camo1.html


Not trying to discredit anyone but I don't think hunting 3 years makes someone an expert on camo patterns. I have been bow hunting for 25 years and don't consider myself an expert on anything. That being said the following is just my opinion.
I read the article and would disagree with some of the statements made. For example in every picture the author says the predator camo breaks up the silhouette while Mossy Oak doesn't. In my opinion the predator camo sticks out like a sore thumb. It's the first thing I notice when looking at the pictures. Think about it what is your eye drawn to in every picture. The first thing you notice is the predator camo in my opinion. I'm not saying predator camo isn't any good. What I am saying is the pictures do not prove the author's point. In fact I think it proves just the opposite. Mossy Oak is better at hiding you in the woods. This of course is just my opinion. Mossy Oak Treestand is a brand new pattern and hasn't been tested by average deer hunters during hunting situations. However, I believe Mossy Oak Treestand will prove to be one of the most effective patterns on the market. I will be giving it a thorough test this fall for sure.


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## heritagehunters

> However, I believe Mossy Oak Treestand will prove to be one of the most effective patterns on the market


I too am curious as to how we will like this pattern come Fall :wink:


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## DuckBuckGoose

Did any of you guys read the new issues of field and stream? There's an article in there entitled "The Big Game Is About To Change" which details scientific findings about a deer's vision, hearing, rut movement patterns, density, and breeding. Pretty interesting article.

Under the Vision section - it basically says that it doesn't matter what camo you wear...just as long as it breaks up your outline. It goes on to say that "a deer's ability to distinguish details is horrendous". Using a live deer in the study they somehow figured out that the deer had 20/100 vision - meaning that "if you are 20 feet from a deer and remain motionless, the deer can resolve the details of your appearance no better than a human observing you from 100 feet."

The biggest factor in beating a deer's vision is to remain totally motionless - because deer have an extremely wide field of view. It also says that because of how a deer's eyes are constructed (pupils are horizontally slit) it naturally orients their eyes to pick up movement at or just below the horizon. So, get up in that treestand, don't move, and wear any kind of camo that will break up your outline and you'll have that bucks eyes beat. Now...for his nose, that's another story all together...


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## DwayneR

> Did any of you guys read the new issues of field and stream? There's an article in there entitled "The Big Game Is About To Change" which details scientific findings about a deer's vision, hearing, rut movement patterns, density, and breeding. Pretty interesting article.


 IMO pretty worthless article..



> Using a live deer in the study they somehow figured out that the deer had 20/100 vision - meaning that "if you are 20 feet from a deer and remain motionless, the deer can resolve the details of your appearance no better than a human observing you from 100 feet."


 Deer can pick you out at 300+ yards in full Camo if you move. 20/100... to me? BS.



> The biggest factor in beating a deer's vision is to remain totally motionless - because deer have an extremely wide field of view.


 Their view is like ours...Only their eyes are on the side of their head...Predators have their eyes more on the front of their heads.



> It also says that because of how a deer's eyes are constructed (pupils are horizontally slit) it naturally orients their eyes to pick up movement at or just below the horizon. So, get up in that treestand, don't move, and wear any kind of camo that will break up your outline and you'll have that bucks eyes beat.


 Total BS...Those deer can nail you in trees 30 feet high... Just as well or better than you or I can nail someone in a tree.

Two ways IMO to get a deer...

Get rid of scent...(stand positioning to the wind)
Get rid of movement...(Camo)

With those gone, you only have natural instinct to overcome...

Dwayne


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## WTAILHUNTER

*This a long read but I promise worth it!*

*Of course there are going to be plenty of people that will disagree with the following info, I am fine with that, we are all entitled to our own opinion(agree or disagree)...even me...lol that is why we live in the U.S.A.*

In my opinion I don't believe you should worry so much about a particular camo pattern as much as the break up of it.(lights and darks) Deer don't see like us, they see in dark and light tones, so if your wearing a solid color your going to be a large yellowish blow to them. 

It has been proven that animals and birds have sensitivity to ultraviolet light and the 438nm short-blue wavelengths that humans are blind to

The following graphs illustrate the difference between the Daylight (color) vision of the Human and the Whitetail deer. Each trace reveals the profile of sensitivity of a single class of receptor. Notice that the deer has only blue peaking and green peaking receptors while the human has a third receptor that is normally referred to as “red” because it gives us the ability to see red light. This third cone makes us far more sensitive to the longer wavelengths (such as blaze orange at 605 nanometers). Notice also that the sensitivities of our blue receptor and the short side of our green receptor are less than that of the deer. This is the result of our Ultraviolet (UV) Filter that is absent in the deer. It makes us unable to see UV and far less sensitive to all wavelengths below 500 nanometers. The color bars illustrate the full range of color and brightness that each would see if deer and human both observed the spectrum in equal brightness. 










Scotopic or rod vision is the black/white/gray capability in low light conditions at the peak hunting hours when these animals are most active. While deer are clearly superior in low light at all wavelengths, the advantage is greatest at wavelengths where the deer’s sensitivity continues after human vision has ceased (Blocked by the UV Filter). This graph illustrates the extended capability of game animals and birds to see beyond our visible range. Note that at 400 nanometers (where human vision is fully blocked by our UV filter) the game animals have greater sensitivity than humans have for Blaze Orange. For ease of illustration, a logarithmic scale is used to compress the huge advantage in rod sensitivity of the deer. 











I live and die by this info as far as everything I do hunting! and my brother and I have personaly proved all of this info to be true while hunting.

*So...* 1st and number one thing I make sure none of my camo has UV and believe me this is harder to do then you think. My brother and I have been doing this for years. I have found that Natural Gear camo if made in the US or Canada will be UV free..I guess I should go into that a bit.

We have found that about 98% of all camo is now made in China and will have UV's The trick is to find Camo that is made in either the US or Canada usually they will not have UV....Usually! We have camo from RealTree and MossyOak that is UV free but it is hard to find. I purchesed a MINI BLB light from Atsko to check close when I go to buy camo. You can also buy a 21" BLB light at Lowes for about $20 bucks to hang on the wall in your dark room.

I would love to tell you buy anything and treat it with UV-Killer but it does not work! We have tested this extensively on all types of fabric. The only fabric it dulls (does not eliminate)very temporaraly is cotton but after a couple days it will glow again. The UV-Killer for metal has no effect on a bows paint that contains UV either or arrows. 

I mix match all my camo. I will take two different shirts, pants, of diff camo patterns one lighter one darker and cut them right up the middle and sew them back togeather after swapping the shirt & pant halves. that way you get a much better break up pattern. To be honest if you could find a Hawiian shirt that was UV free it would be an outstanding breakup pattern. To be safe Wool (which a lot of people own from the older days) does not contain UVs and neither does any kind of military fatigues, no military camo contains UV's. A lot of people own the old style army pants. We found in our research that the military uses UV free clothing because a snipers position can be given away by an animal squawking or bird (like you've heard blue jays do while hunting)and seen in night vision goggles.

But that realtree AP and new Mossyoak Treestand are sweet realistic patterns (at least to the human eye) 

My 2 Cents...


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## darkstar

I am 100% convinced that a deers vision-what it sees, what spectrums, colors, etec,etc doesnt mean squat. Match your camo to your surroundings and you will appear as a part of the forest. If you can fool a humans eye, you can fool a deers, very simply if it looks really good to you then it should work. In my opinion, scent is a much bigger problem with bow hunting than camo, if a deer is directly down wind, you will eventually get busted.

As for wearing all black i couldnt imagine a worse color for my area, with all the bear around and the "blob" effect. Hey it may work somewhere else but i would opt for all brown before wearing all black.


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## Varbogen

*If you can wear blaze Orange*

If you can wear Blaze orange in the woods and not be spotted , Goes to prove the point . 
Its also Scientific fact that Deer only see in the UV spectrum, that said , Camo for Deer is a sham, Always has been and the Professional Hunters know it . 

Camo Works for Turkeys, Thats about it , Even then Don't Skimp and buy cheap because there vision is acute enough to disseminate at great distance.


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## Varbogen

*Absolutely WRONG !*



darkstar said:


> I am 100% convinced that a deers vision-what it
> sees, what spectrums, colors, etec,etc doesnt mean squat. Match your camo to your surroundings and you will appear as a part of the forest. If you can fool a humans eye, you can fool a deers, very simply if it looks really good to you then it should work. In my opinion, scent is a much bigger problem with bow hunting than camo, if a deer is directly down wind, you will eventually get busted.
> 
> As for wearing all black i couldnt imagine a worse color for my area, with all the bear around and the "blob" effect. Hey it may work somewhere else but i would opt for all brown before wearing all black.


Do you Read ? I mean in the Sense of , Have you EVER read anything like a Science textbook ?

Human Vision is ok , but no where near as Acute as most animals . 

We would like to think we are at the Apex of everything , but we are Animals in nature as our quarry is , The difference is we have evolved differently and with it certain instincts changed the way we body reacts to stimulus , changing our genetic code to be passed on to the next Generation . 

We have evolved to do a great many things with this process over 10,000 years , But with the Instincts being Vastly different than even 1000 years ago Easy to see we do not have the Strength , Speed , or Agility we had , let alone the sense of smell and sight , as we have developed our minds instead our bodies changed , giving us another different kind of sight ,Insight .
Camoflauge works on the Human mind , and those that see as we do or close to it . 

We always see animals as our lessor, kind of sad , they are usally out smarting us , usually stronger ,faster, and more resilient than we are , its because they still live by instinct and using the knowledge they have of thier bodies and environment to thier advantage . 

I am not saying they are Intelligent Species, But I am Saying They Listen to thier Instincts Which is thier Advantage and thier Downfall , Depends on the season . 
Then Again I can get nutty when I want to Breed , So I understand !!

Seriously though , We adapt because we do not have thier Strengths, Speed and resiliency , But Mother nature gives to all her creatures , evolution is not a Human only trait .


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## shooter31

> Its also Scientific fact that Deer only see in the UV spectrum,


That is not true according to what I've been able to read in research. They see in the UV spectrum *in addition to* most of the human visible spectrum. The exception is the longer wave visible spectrum. Basically, they don't see the reds they way we do.


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## JRM6868

Here's a pic of Enigma at 20' away from my camera.


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## dangutting

*How Deer See camo*

Hi,
My name is Dan Gutting and I Make U-V-Killer.
I see a lot of hard thinking went into some of the posts in this thread.
I believe I can answere most questions comparing human vision to deer vision but you would be bored to tears if I start at the beginning of the thread and try to do them all.
Instead I'll try to summerize what we need to understant and I will try to check back to help with details.
It goes without saying that movement is a major giveaway and, if the animal can come in from downwind, smell can be important too. Everyone seems fixated on the importance of choosing the right pattern and there are more opinions than patterns.
Let me assure you that you are an infinitely better judge of the match of your pattern than the most astute deer. Unless you're completely red/green color blind (completely lacking red cones) you see a rainbow of color where a deer sees only blue and yellow. So if the pattern looks like a good match to you, it is a great match to the deer.
The problem comes with the wavelengths (Colors) that he sees better than you. These are the wavelenghts shorter than 450 nm., blue and a little of what we call ultraviolet. We have the receptors, but they are protected (blocked) by a UV filter to make our eye last more than 10 years. This makes us unable to see after the sun goes down. It almost totally blinds to 440nm where UV brighteners radiate all the energy they collect from UV.
To be sure you don't glow you must check all your clothes with a UV light.

Here comes the shameless ad.

If they glow you must cover them with UV KIller spray.

In a nutshell. 
You can judge the pattern better than the deer.
Just test everything with a UV Light to be sure you don't glow.
Regards, Dan


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## gungho

I believe that most camo paterns are made to atract the hunter and not to fool the deer I think that a camo patern should breakup your outline it has been my experiance that most popular patern are to dark and clutterd and the deer can pick up any movment I use preditor but there are other ones that breakup your profile it apeares that some of the majore companies are starting to lighten up their paterns
Gung


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## ftshooter

Very Interresting ......


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## Diesel77

My favorite bow hunting camo, works all season.


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## phumb

gungho said:


> I believe that most camo paterns are made to atract the hunter and not to fool the deer I think that a camo patern should breakup your outline it has been my experiance that most popular patern are to dark and clutterd and the deer can pick up any movment I use preditor but there are other ones that breakup your profile it apeares that some of the majore companies are starting to lighten up their paterns
> Gung


Couldn't agree more!


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## mpk1996

One thing that we all forget about all of this camo talk is how well a deer blends into its environment. you have a solid greyish color that is so very hard to see. I think most of the camo patterns work extremely well, but nothing works just standing in the open. camoflage is more than just the clothing we were, but a state of mind in the woods. everything we do from stand placement (yes, high does work very well) and natural background and foreground elements that will break up your outline are a must. I have spent a lot of time in the woods hunting and in the military. Camoflage goes way beyone patterns. That all being said, i think that the UV killers (sprays and wash) are a must due to the spectrum that deer see in. I know we have all had sucess and failures, but its hard to tell why a deer did or did not see us. kinda tough to talk to them and find out what they are seeing. One thing everyone talks about is wind and scent. I make sure that the clothing i buy have some sort of scent blocker in it. some say it doesn't work, but I think that it does, and if not, i certainly doesn't hurt (except the pocketbook). anyway, this is just my 2 cents and may not be worth that to some


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## 206Moose

dangutting said:


> Hi,
> My name is Dan Gutting and I Make U-V-Killer.
> I see a lot of hard thinking went into some of the posts in this thread.
> I believe I can answere most questions comparing human vision to deer vision but you would be bored to tears if I start at the beginning of the thread and try to do them all.
> Instead I'll try to summerize what we need to understant and I will try to check back to help with details.
> It goes without saying that movement is a major giveaway and, if the animal can come in from downwind, smell can be important too. Everyone seems fixated on the importance of choosing the right pattern and there are more opinions than patterns.
> Let me assure you that you are an infinitely better judge of the match of your pattern than the most astute deer. Unless you're completely red/green color blind (completely lacking red cones) you see a rainbow of color where a deer sees only blue and yellow. So if the pattern looks like a good match to you, it is a great match to the deer.
> The problem comes with the wavelengths (Colors) that he sees better than you. These are the wavelenghts shorter than 450 nm., blue and a little of what we call ultraviolet. We have the receptors, but they are protected (blocked) by a UV filter to make our eye last more than 10 years. This makes us unable to see after the sun goes down. It almost totally blinds to 440nm where UV brighteners radiate all the energy they collect from UV.
> To be sure you don't glow you must check all your clothes with a UV light.
> 
> Here comes the shameless ad.
> 
> If they glow you must cover them with UV KIller spray.
> 
> In a nutshell.
> You can judge the pattern better than the deer.
> Just test everything with a UV Light to be sure you don't glow.
> Regards, Dan



You should read this http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=715471 According to this guy your stuff doesn't work.


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## deer man

*camo*

my brother was having trouble deer picking him off,and he hunts 25-40 ft,He is a great bowhunter.two years ago he tried the wash and uv killer,and has not had a problem since he treated that one piece camo suit.


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## SidneyArcher

Our US Air Force has recently (in the last year or two) rolled out a new camo pattern know as the ABU (Airman Battle Uniform). They spent over 5 years of R&D and testing to finaly come up with the patern, and the material like most of militaries uniforms, is uv protected. I have not used it to hunt with, and do not have an opinion yet if it should be used for such. However if you do a search for the topic, some info on the development and critera may be helpful to this thread.


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## jfish

*Way too much info here*

From what I have learned after reading way too many research papers on this topic I think WTAILHUNTER pretty much covered it. During hours of day light deer see in tones yellows and blues, and after dark in tones of black and white. Breaking up the human outline is obviously paramount and 3d type suits help in this area. Next is UV issues and like WTIALHUNTER I too have found most foreign made camo fabrics have brighteners which are difficult to hide.

It appears that in most cases UV brighteners are not unique to a specific pattern but to the manufacture. For what it’s worth I have yet to find a single piece of Remington clothing with brighteners. Redhead is hit and miss, some do some don’t. Off brand camo regardless off pattern all typically reflect UV. 

Someone above asked about night vision or the deer’s ability to see IR? Simply put, deer see better at night because of the number of rods and cones in their eye plus the reflective surface at the back of the eye ball. However, they do not see in the IR range of light like night vision goggles. Along this line I would mention that some camo patterns do vanish under IR however deer cannot see that effect. I don’t mean they become more invisible I mean the pattern turns one solid color when viewed with NVGs. As far as deer this does not matter. What other game may or may not see under IR conditions I do not know. Some birds and reptiles see in IR, not sure about other mammals. 

The observation made regarding pigs seeing the red light of night hunters clearly has something to do with the wavelength visible to a pig’s eye. Sounds like they see into the longer wave lengths therefore red is available to them. However, this typically means they cannot see well into the UV spectrum?

I am troubled to hear the UV Killer as indicated by WTAILHUNTER does not completely mask the UV? I was leaning on that to help save some of my clothing this season %$#@! I did notice that during initial treatments it did not completely stop the blueish color but it did significantly stop the glow. The information about it not lasting on the fabric really sucks. There’s no way I can afford to keep treating the clothing, one treatment and that’s all it’s getting. 

The post about your treestand strap giving you away, TRUE! Have someone take a photo of you in the stand and two things will stand out. The black strap and or shoulder straps and the straight lines of your stand against the sky. If you can break up the parallel lines and camo the black straps you will blend much better. Those strips of 3D camo tape or the 3D strips of fabric used to camo bows are great for fixing the stand. 

Here is how I plan on trying to get luck on my side. 
1. Wear patterns that break up your outline against the surroundings you hunt. Larger patterns tend to work better. 3D is a plus.
2. Identify and mark the pieces of clothing that have UV brighteners. Treat them, wear them as under layers or avoid them.
3. Don’t buy anything in the future with brighteners.
4. Fix all the observed issues with the treestand sticking out like a sore thumb. 

PS. I am not in anyway associated with any products discussed in this post or than a customer.


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## JRM6868

Here's an example of IR light on camo.


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## jfish

*Ir*

JRM That is exactly what I saw when viewed under IR... Good example for sure.. What were you using..?


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## thunderchicken2

jfish said:


> JRM That is exactly what I saw when viewed under IR... Good example for sure.. What were you using..?


It is an IR homebrew camera...P41 I do believe


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## JRM6868

jfish said:


> JRM That is exactly what I saw when viewed under IR... Good example for sure.. What were you using..?


I was wearing Enigma camo.


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## JRM6868

thunderchicken2 said:


> It is an IR homebrew camera...P41 I do believe


You got it.


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## BeachBow

darkstar said:


> I am 100% convinced that a deers vision-what it sees, what spectrums, colors, etec,etc doesnt mean squat. Match your camo to your surroundings and you will appear as a part of the forest. If you can fool a humans eye, you can fool a deers, very simply if it looks really good to you then it should work. In my opinion, scent is a much bigger problem with bow hunting than camo, if a deer is directly down wind, you will eventually get busted.


With all this talk about what a deer sees, is there a way to rig a camera to see in the deers spectrum(s) and photograph various camos in various states, trees, brush, etc., and then be able to compare that? I tend to follow the "blend in with your surroundings" theory, assuming that if I look like everything else I won't stand out. 

I agree 110% about movement and scent! :thumbs_up

PS. Threads like this are what makes AT the place to be! I appreciate all the info as well as the different opinions expressed by everyone! Thanks to all the AT'ers!


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## Dreamer

BeachBow said:


> With all this talk about what a deer sees, is there a way to rig a camera to see in the deers spectrum(s) and photograph various camos in various states, trees, brush, etc., and then be able to compare that? I tend to follow the "blend in with your surroundings" theory, assuming that if I look like everything else I won't stand out.
> 
> I agree 110% about movement and scent! :thumbs_up
> 
> PS. Threads like this are what makes AT the place to be! I appreciate all the info as well as the different opinions expressed by everyone! Thanks to all the AT'ers!


stole the words right out of my mouth


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## squish2519

Wow, what a topic! This has spun some great posts, that normally would not surface without a win-win debate subject that is posed and responded to as intended. I have my own opion which matches those of many previous posts, and have learned much more from others whom have posted. 

My 2 cents are similar:

Scent - Deer "IMO" are a curious animal and will be leary of something strange but not overly alarmed unless there are other factors as well such as movement and scent.
Movement - What is right in front of you is often missed if it doesn't move, why, because it is movement that catches your eye. 
6th sense - Big Bucks are big for a reason and they have a sense just like we do. In the woods we are in their home and sometimes they just act if something doesn't feel right. Ever sat and watched TV, had someone enter the room and without seeing or hearing them you knew someone had entered the room? I believe animals have that same instinctive feeling in their "home" surroundings.
Brighteners - stack the odds in your favor by purchasing camo without brighteners but wow do I know a lot of people that go through all the trouble and then wash them in detergent "with Brighteners". Here's you sign!

Good luck to everyone, may your arrows fly true to an instant kill.


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## wirenut583

SidneyArcher said:


> Our US Air Force has recently (in the last year or two) rolled out a new camo pattern know as the ABU (Airman Battle Uniform). They spent over 5 years of R&D and testing to finaly come up with the patern, and the material like most of militaries uniforms, is uv protected. I have not used it to hunt with, and do not have an opinion yet if it should be used for such. However if you do a search for the topic, some info on the development and critera may be helpful to this thread.


 Have You seen it? It looks great I wish I could get me some. I think that all Combat Issue camos are great and BDUs are they only pant I wear in the woods. I hunt from the ground and have been as close as 3 yards from deer who have never spotted me. I have been even closer to Elk. I would wear the shirts but here in So. New Mexico I usually only wear a long sleeve T-shirt when I am hunting. You can usually buy the BDUs surplus for about $10 a pair. I have some desert BDUS for antelope if I could ever get drawn.


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## Mudshack

So most of us agree that ASAT and Predator Camo break up the human outline the best. But *does anyone know if ASAT and Predator are UV Protected*?

I think this is such a hot topic because no mater what kind of bow/broadhead you use, we all strive to be snipers and to blend in. Shoot, I sometimes hide under the cover that is always on our couch when playing with the kids. If you blend in with what the deer are used to, and don't look "out of the ordinary" you will go undetected. If my clothes are emitting a wave length that makes me appear to glow, then I stick out. Think about it. At dusk, our eyes see Blaze orange like it glows. Imagine what we must look like to animals that see our UV glowing clothing.


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## Zakrz11

Let me start off by saying that patterns are only as good as you make them. Knowing how to use your camo is more important than exactly which pattern you buy. 

Most of the time a deer sees you because you moved. One of the biggest problems with patterns that are high contrast or are too open is that they give away movement. I like the idea of the new vertigo camo or predator, but when you draw your bow and there is light moving against dark, it is bad business. There is a huge trade off between blending the outline of a human and concealing movement. 

For example, stand in front of a mirror, put on some camo gloves and move your hand slowly in front of your camo shirt or jacket. Now take the glove off and do the same. The pattern of the camo actually makes slight movement more difficult to detect. I realize that staying still is the name of game, but you do have to draw your bow sometime. 

I also agree that wearing different patterns works for breaking up the human outline. I do this sometimes, but I do not know if it actually makes any difference in fooling game. 

I personally love the Realtree AP pattern for my hunts in Oklahoma. It allows me to blend in the panhandle as well as across the state in the hardwoods. I also like the Mossy Oak Treestand pattern. To me, it has the best balance of breakup and contrast for woods hunting. ASAT seems pretty good for an all purpose camo, but I haven't really seen it in the field.


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## smkdvr29

*Gore-optifade*

Looking at the optifade. Lots of research on this pattern. However if you got to the web site there is a little game you can play called "find the hunter". I found 29 out of 34 on my first try. Asat has pic as well, and found them a little harder to find. Take a look-- www.optifade.com


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## road_kill

i think the best thing to come around in awhile for treestand hunting is that new vertigo camo.....even though it works great it is a tree stand only pattern....on the ground in my area mossy oak obssession works best to me.....the terrain varies soo much around here that i use about 3-4 differant patterns a year depending on location and season


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## AITW

*Camo Hocus Pocus. . .*

No human has any idea what an animal see, especially a deer. There is the best guess theory that has been foisted upon us and a lot of companies back it up with pretty colored graphs that make people believe that animals see this way. And it is all to sell product to the masses.

I look at bowhunters like Gail Martin, Fred Bear, Howard Hill, Jack Zwickey, Dick Mauch, etc. They never wore camo, partly because there was none, but mostly because they didn't need it.

These guys stalked and still hunted and killed hundreds of animals in their careers as hunters.

Now, the best camo that I have ever used, and I've used just about every brand out there, is ASAT. Especially their 3-D leafy camo. I stood 10' from a deer grazing, in a light wind, between two trees and he looked right through me. . .didn't even know I was there. The best thing to do when hunting is to be aware of what is behind you.

Using camo like the 2 "most popular" brands on the market are okay for up close concealment, but from any distance the person "blobs out" and their silhouette can be seen from a good distance. If you are in the open, neither of them works worth a darn. And if you see their adds or commercials, the shots you see are taken in the optimum concealment scenario, which has to be "staged" or "set-up" to optimize the sell and make you (the consumer) believe that that camo is the best there is. But, you as the consumer are just as responsible for making yourself "invisible" as the camo you are wearing.

Now, I have no idea what color spectrum animals (deer) see in, but I do know that they an see for a good long distance and if they spot a dark blob, it looks un-natural to them and they tend to steer away from it. :shade:

IR stands for "Infra-red". And as stated earlier, I would be more concerned about scent and movement. Stay upwind and move slowly, as the animals do, and you increase your chances 20 - 30% just by doing those 2 things!


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## Mykey

I've been using Natural Gear for many many years and have been very successful while using it. I believe in this camo and as long as it's made thats what i'll be wearing.


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## tcrocker

Sct146 it is experance that camo is for people. I kid you not a few years ago I was hunting on the ground sitting by a pine tree I was wearing a black golds gym tank top with a bright green monkey on it and I had 3 does come with in mere feet of me. the only thing I do is smoke up before a hunt. If I'm hunting pines I get some green pine tops and burn them let the smoke cover me and my weapon very good and go. I do were camo but because I like it not for the deer. I think that all this camo and cover sent stuff is a bunch of hog wash, it's just people trying to sell you somthing you don't need. That's my story and I'm sticking to it Just a after thought but how many deer have you killed wearing blaze orange?


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## moto1

"be red-green color blind. This does not mean that the colors red and green are not perceivable it simply means that red and green probably appear the same to a deer"

i know of several instances where wearing orange has cause deer to bust-no movement, we have been down wind and still bust, though admittedly uv could have come to play. however, we've also had deer lay at our laps wearing orange. when i was in school i'd go hunting in a mo camo shirt, ripped out jeans and nikes in a poorboys groundblind. spooked some, passed some, and killed some. despite all the studies, it is still all speculative/theoretical. we are not deer, so we will never truely know what they see or how they interpret what they see. i'm a firm believer that just like people and other critters, there is variation between all of us and how/what we see..........jmo


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## oneilltr2743

*Camouflage evaluation*

A friend told me these questions were coming up.

I was on the team that developed Optifade. Until recently, most of my work was in military camouflage, so this was sort of a trip. I've been doing this work for 36 years, and am still consulting on projects for Army, Marines, FBI, Bureau of Land Management, and various foreign armies. The method we used to develop and test Optifade was similar to the tests I've been running elsewhere.

If anybody has questions, go for it -- 


Tim O'Neill


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## Heavishot

One of the best patterns I've found isn't pretty but it is effective.... Cabelas outfitter brown. Ancedotal evidence... I leaned against a pine tree in 2" high grass and watched a buddy walk by at 15 yards without seeing me until I started whistling at him. Even then, he didn't instantly pick me out.

I really think most of the popular brands are WAAAY to dark. Even in deep woods my Natgear pants blend remarkably well, as i've seen in my trail cam pics. There are perfect shadows where ever you go so why bring shadows with you?


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## Rchr

oneilltr2743 said:


> A friend told me these questions were coming up.
> 
> I was on the team that developed Optifade. Until recently, most of my work was in military camouflage, so this was sort of a trip. I've been doing this work for 36 years, and am still consulting on projects for Army, Marines, FBI, Bureau of Land Management, and various foreign armies. The method we used to develop and test Optifade was similar to the tests I've been running elsewhere.
> 
> If anybody has questions, go for it --
> 
> Tim O'Neill


Please tell us more. This would probably be very educational to most of us.


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## oneilltr2743

*Camouflage as science*

Optifade -- like the most recent military designs (some of them, anyway) -- works by interfering with two visual processes: detection (seeing something) and recognition (deciding what it is). In humans this is done by two different parts of the visual system: the tectopulvinar ("where is it?") and the geniculostriate ("what is it?"). Work with me -- I don't get a chance to bring this into a conversation very often.

The where is it in humans is outside the center of vision (the peripheral field), and is sensitive to movement and contrast -- we just see something that may not belong. If we detect something, we move the eyes (and sometimes the head, too) so the target is in the center of vision.

The center of vision is called the focal area, and in this area we analyze color, detail, and shape. Here we decide if it is actually a target, and if so what it is (including deciding on an aiming point).

Deer vision is very similar to human vision, but differs in four ways that are important to our design. We all know about the color sensitivity, and many commercial patterns at least try to take that into account. We also know that deer have slightly lower acuity than humans -- mean around 20/40 Snellen, which is better than mine; but deer don't wear glasses.

But there are two other interesting differences. First, deer don't have a fovea. That's the dense disk of cone cells at the center of vision that we use to analyze details (the _geniculostriate_ pathways). Instead, most deerlike critters -- ungulates -- have a "tapetum" -- a streak of such receptors that runs across the retina. This allows the deer to search the horizon efficiently. (My cadets in the engineering psych program at West Point dissected cow eyes to see the tapetum, which looks like an oil streak that reflects rainbow colors.)

The deer's eyes are also on the sides of the head, which allows a wider field of view but makes judging depth and distance the way we do more difficult.

One thing we don't know is how deer think; we can only infer this from how they behave.

When we tested the designs, we filtered the test images for acuity and color sensitivity so the Observers cold see the world, at least visually, the way a deer does. We had to use hunters -- deer get bored when they have to sit in front of a computer screen for a long time.

When I get a moment to continue this, I can talk about some of the design tricks -- those that aren't proprietary, anyway -- so you get a better idea how Optifade came into being.

Stay tuned.


Tim O'Neill


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## Gypsy Rover

*kudos*

Tim,

Great explanation..... and looking forward to more:smile:


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## Rchr

Thanks for the explanation and please tell us more.


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## slay

I tried reading through all of this before posting, but it is way too much overload. I will keep it simple and to the point. This is based on many years of hunting and many types of camo patterns tested. (very little scientific pontification) My apologies to those I may be repeating and to those who do not agree with me.

You must blend in with the particular surroundings you are currently hunting.
Forget UV philosophies. It just doesnt matter. Scent control and movement are the primary enemies moreso than anything. But wary deer require that you "blend well" into the terrain.

I believe in ASAT, and Predator. Only because these 2 camos seem to match most any features found in nature as an all around camo. Nate may work well in the midwest, but the other 2 will fit more geographic locales.

All black??? Sorry, but that is just a bad recomendation. I could probably take a deer in a white tee shirt and orange shorts...but then again, what I lack in fashion, I make up for in woodsmanship......LOL


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## amoberry

Besides excellent points in this thread (and I know you've heard this before), I try to first observe my stand location's background (up in the tree) from the approaching deer's expected position(s), especially above you. Be careful of a hole(s) in the tree canopy above and behind you (I've been busted before in fairly thick woods by a huge 10point due to a small blue sky hole above and behind me that I did not notice). I also regularly seek out 1 or 2 holly or cedar trees next to my stand tree location for movement cover. 

I'm a big fan of leafy camo suits. Probably going to buy a 3rd new lighter color leafy camo suit for my treestand use based on my excellent spring turkey hunting and deer hunting experiences with darker (i.e. darker green (APG) in spring/early fall, darker forest floor brown in late fall/early spring here in VA) leafy camo suits (including the leafy headcover which is the key camo piece since that is what I move the most?). To me a leafy headcover makes a big difference in being unable to recognize my human shape, especially with my XL size head. My 2 cents.


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## KDogg

Tim,

This Optifade that you speak of sounds unique. A few questions:

* is this a uniform camo pattern or are there variances throughout a piece that would aid in the distorting or the "what is it" application
* what specifica colors are used in this camo
* is it commercially available........or where can I purchase it?
* can you tell us more from the testing and how this camo is different

I am anxious to learn more about this.


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## Crom

KDogg said:


> Tim,
> 
> This Optifade that you speak of sounds unique. A few questions:
> 
> * is this a uniform camo pattern or are there variances throughout a piece that would aid in the distorting or the "what is it" application
> * what specifica colors are used in this camo
> * is it commercially available........or where can I purchase it?
> * can you tell us more from the testing and how this camo is different
> 
> I am anxious to learn more about this.


Optifade was designed by Gore, and is licensed to Sitka this year, you can see it on their website. www.sitkagear.com


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## huntinmama

*Animals*

1111111111111


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## jim p

If I wash my camo in detergent with brightners have I just ruined them forever or will these brightners be washed out if I use detergent with no brightners?

I have heard that the military has some IR blockers which keeps a person wearing the IR camo from being detected when using night vision equipment. Now if we had some uv camo that worked the same way maybe it would help prevent deer from seeing us.


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## aggiegoddess

*Col Tim O'Neill*

Q-

How much total black is there in nature? ( not at night?)

Why is the US Army dumping the ACU?


Comments on the new vertigo camo/

WHITE?

Why didn't they sue a Grey?

White appears to be a Danger signal to WT Deer here in Texas.

Thank you for your service to our great nation

Texas Aggie Goddess


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## ftshooter

What you say?


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