# Ontarios first Pro-Am?



## Topper1018 (Feb 19, 2013)

Hey everyone, following the outpour of support after the floyd armstrong memorial tournament, Hailee and I are considering organizing another event. I want to get everyones opinion on an idea to mimic the pro-am tournament held at each ASA event. The stipulations there are one pro or semi pro, as the 'captain', to a team and the other 3 members are assigned at random. Each group of 4 will then shoot as a team. Targets are unknown distances but the group can discuss yardage among themselves. This brings into play a lot of strategy as to at what point you have your "best" shooters shoot their arrow. Normal shooter rotation does not apply. 3 of the 4 arrows shot will be scored allowing one lesser scored arrow to be dropped per target. There is one pin per target that everyone shoots from, if the interest is there i will add a second pin for trad shooters who wish to participate. I have personally participated in this event down south and it makes for a very enjoyable time and allows archers to learn from and spend time with other archers they may never had otherwise had the opportunity to meet. Since up here we lack in the pro and semi pro participant department, we would use open class shooters. Course may be 2 loops of 15 or 20 depending on amount of interest. Prizes are payback of 50% of entry fee. i.e. 100 shooters @25$ each is 1250 in prize money up for grabs to top 3 teams. 
Feedback?


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## JDoupe (Dec 9, 2006)

Sounds like a great shoot!!!!!


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## Cory J~ (Jun 29, 2010)

I'm in.


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## Haileebird (Jul 4, 2013)

Uh oh.. Looks like I'm not going to get any laundry sorted and put away after all..


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## oktalotl (May 21, 2012)

I'm definitely in, seen those tournaments too. It's VERY interesting and very "sporty".


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## ronperreault (Mar 24, 2013)

I'd love to shoot with someone who can judge yardage, I certainly can't. Sounds like fun!


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## thunderbolt (Oct 11, 2002)

Sounds like a great concept and sounds like fun. Just because someone shoots open doesn't mean they are Pro/SemiPro calibre...some of the best shots shoot pins instead.
The hardest part would be determining who to put in that position...


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## Robert Piette (Mar 21, 2012)

thunderbolt said:


> Sounds like a great concept and sounds like fun. Just because someone shoots open doesn't mean they are Pro/SemiPro calibre...some of the best shots shoot pins instead.
> The hardest part would be determining who to put in that position...


Agreed, it's a great concept, the difficulty is determining who is Pro/Semi Pro. To my knowledge I don't think we have actual pro 3D shooters in Ontario, that is, people who are paid to shoot competitively. We have lots of sponsored shooters, but by no means does that make them much better then anyone else.


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## JDoupe (Dec 9, 2006)

Rob.....you're a pro in my eyes.

As an armature....I would love to shoot on your team.


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## ontario3-d'r (Feb 17, 2012)

These types of tournaments are great. There may need to be some way to pre-register the people who would be team captains. Not really sure how to do that. The concern I have would be 15 people willing to be captains and 70 people who want to shoot as a teammate. There would be 25 people there with no captain to shoot with. If you knew ahead of time that you had 15 willing captains, then you could limit registration to the number of committed captains. May sound wrong to some people, but I always try to think of the 25 people that would not have anybody to shoot with at the event if it was for teams only.

The one event that I was at they just ran it as a regular tournament. Once they knew who were willing to be captains, an announcement was made that the first "x" number of people that wanted to be part of the team event was to come to the registration desk. Once the team event was full, names were randomly drawn from a hat. Individual awards and team awards were given out that day.

I would attend an tournament like that. They are great fun.


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## postman99 (May 9, 2008)

sounds like alot of fun, but im really curious to see how the captains are chosen


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## Topper1018 (Feb 19, 2013)

Guys I understand your concerns and I like the idea of guys committing to be a captain. If 15 committed that would be great, if we had an excess of shooters I would still carry on with random teams. One good shooter does not sway the balance enough. For example I don't think a team captained by Levi or gillingham has ever won a team event in the ASA


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## Topper1018 (Feb 19, 2013)

Also lets not emphasize the term captain, it will be a team effort.

I would also think about instituting the Asa risk and reward scoreing system of low 12 with the option to call high 12. This also helps with kiss outs. Which SUCK!


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## DODGE-3D (Feb 17, 2005)

Great idea Eric,I am In.


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## Robert Piette (Mar 21, 2012)

DODGE-3D said:


> Great idea Eric,I am In.


Hey Dan, can me and Jason be on your team


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## mike106 (Mar 12, 2007)

I also think this is a idea iam in to


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## dh1 (Dec 16, 2004)

I'd be in for sure


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## Moosetalker (Oct 19, 2008)

I want to be on Blakes team because for once when you are shooting on the same stake as him he would still be constanty chirping but he would be trying to pep you up and help you out so that his team will do better over all rather than trying to get in your head and mess you up. LOL !!!! Just kid'n Blakester, you old 3 D dog you. Anyways, yes an awesome idea for a change of pace at a 3 D shoot.


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## JDoupe (Dec 9, 2006)

Robert Piette said:


> Hey Dan, can me and Jason be on your team



Done and Done!!!!


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## crkelly (Mar 17, 2011)

Can I play too. lol


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## bigHUN (Feb 5, 2006)

I don't shoot 3d for last 4-5 years because lost the feel with distances, but with a good team taking care of that part I am sure this will be a great game....looking forward to play


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## stjoebowhunter (Mar 12, 2011)

Love the idea!


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## DODGE-3D (Feb 17, 2005)

Robert Piette said:


> Agreed, it's a great concept, the difficulty is determining who is Pro/Semi Pro. To my knowledge I don't think we have actual pro 3D shooters in Ontario, that is, people who are paid to shoot competitively. We have lots of sponsored shooters, but by no means does that make them much better then anyone else.


Chris Perkins does . He won the ASA in Kentucky last weekend .


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## Robert Piette (Mar 21, 2012)

DODGE-3D said:


> Chris Perkins does . He won the ASA in Kentucky last weekend .


Sorry Dan, I meant real 3D, not K50.


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## Haileebird (Jul 4, 2013)

Pretty sure when it's known yardage your archery skill is being tested, not your ability to judge distance- the best archers in the world shoot k50.


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## Bigjono (Apr 21, 2009)

Trying to say know yardage is something inferior to regular 3D is both insulting and absurd. That's like saying field shooters are somehow less skilled than OAA 3D shooters because they have the yardage.


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## Haileebird (Jul 4, 2013)

All together dick move.


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## bigHUN (Feb 5, 2006)

Bigjono said:


> ...field shooters are somehow less skilled than OAA 3D shooters....


:set1_rolf2:


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## CLASSICHUNTER (May 20, 2005)

my concern is what if a team is dan dodge ..blake....and 2 other top shooters.. then the rest don`t really stand a chance.. not to pee on parade.. but how do you separate top shooters ...and sandbaggers...tough to make teams even..with asa over the year or years your scores are retained and you are ranked..so then its easy to do ..but guys just showing up is tough.. fix to it is you submit your top 5 scores from tournaments and a spread sheet constructed..and rankings will come of it.. and that's lets say for 40 target tournaments... and then a general average score is developed for every one.. so top 15 become captains and can`t shoot together.. and they can recruit the other 3 shooters from rest of listings..... and again it will only be open shooters with moveable shoots you would be catering too .... unless you had different categories for teams.. imho..hope this helps and nothing like moving archery forward..good luck


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## CLASSICHUNTER (May 20, 2005)

hailey check your pm`s


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## Robert Piette (Mar 21, 2012)

Bigjono said:


> Trying to say know yardage is something inferior to regular 3D is both insulting and absurd. That's like saying field shooters are somehow less skilled than OAA 3D shooters because they have the yardage.


Never said inferior, I said it is different.


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## Bigjono (Apr 21, 2009)

Robert Piette said:


> Never said inferior, I said it is different.


Ok then. I find known yardage harder because there's a higher expectation.


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## Robert Piette (Mar 21, 2012)

Bigjono said:


> Ok then. I find known yardage harder because there's a higher expectation.


The second anyone suggests there is a difference in skill sets for variousness disciplines, people jump all over it, they assume you think one is better then the rest. You guys need to relax!!


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## crkelly (Mar 17, 2011)

Great idea folks stick with it. The top shooters are already known in this game and I'm sure they don't need to prove it. Sounds like you already have a good grasp of how it should be run.
Looking forward to attending it.


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## Haileebird (Jul 4, 2013)

Thanks for getting back on track Charles! Like Eric mentioned before, I think stressing the term "captain" or "leader" is the wrong approach here. If we could get 10-15 guys to commit to doing it as a team leader, we could do it that way. 

What we do want to stress is RANDOM assigned teams, meaning guys like Blake, Dan Dodge, etc would either (hopefully) commit to being a team leader or they would be assigned a group randomly. So they could end up with someone like, say, me..


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## Topper1018 (Feb 19, 2013)

Hailees right guys. Randomely assigned teams, you get a target number from say a random number generator on the computer at registration, you show up to your target and meet your team. simple concept.

Robert, you should be careful how your word things. Condescendingly saying "I meant real 3D", to me can only be interpreted one way. I shoot known distance but I can judge too. If you look into the stats, known distance classes are the fastest growing most competative classes. Known distance the best SHOOTER wins, you still gotta hit it. Judgeing the best shooting guy who can put it all together wins.


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## CLASSICHUNTER (May 20, 2005)

so Charles that makes you a team leader...just yanking.. yes need the top dogs to be willing to be TEAM LEADERS ..most of the top shooters are also spot shooters so oaa has historys for most ....checking tournament records will show venues and scores...


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## Robert Piette (Mar 21, 2012)

I think it's also important to consider the timing of the shoot, most of the people you will want as team leads will already have pretty heavy tournament schedules in June, July and August.


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## DODGE-3D (Feb 17, 2005)

Count me out ,to much BS.Just show up if you want to play and enjoy.


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## Robert Piette (Mar 21, 2012)

Topper1018 said:


> Hailees right guys. Randomely assigned teams, you get a target number from say a random number generator on the computer at registration, you show up to your target and meet your team. simple concept.
> 
> Robert, you should be careful how your word things. Condescendingly saying "I meant real 3D", to me can only be interpreted one way. I shoot known distance but I can judge too. If you look into the stats, known distance classes are the fastest growing most competative classes. Known distance the best SHOOTER wins, you still gotta hit it. Judgeing the best shooting guy who can put it all together wins.


Should have said traditional 3D, but then that would been confused with something else.


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## Haileebird (Jul 4, 2013)

I think timing would be good right before bow hunting starts, early september maybe or last weekend in august. sort of one last fun gig before we all hit the woods.


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## CLASSICHUNTER (May 20, 2005)

that's the right time for sure as most clubs have booked their tournaments for years ... and keep them on the same weekends so they don`t conflict with each other ..just a club courtesy... between clubs...


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## moosemeat (Jul 31, 2011)

im in


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## x-quizit (Mar 8, 2011)

I would be up for something like this for sure!!!!


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## wellis1840 (May 29, 2005)

Hey this sounds like a party, I am in! When Hailey, Eric and their crew are the hosts, this event will rock! I am amazed how some here think that this event requires so many rules thus inventing complications. It’s just about winning a medal/recognition at a local shoot and not the Olympics. Chill. If you are that worried about not getting a piece if tin at the end of the day, stay at home.


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## Haileebird (Jul 4, 2013)

wellis1840 said:


> Hey this sounds like a party, I am in! When Hailey, Eric and their crew are the hosts, this event will rock! I am amazed how some here think that this event requires so many rules thus inventing complications. It’s just about winning a medal/recognition at a local shoot and not the Olympics. Chill. If you are that worried about not getting a piece if tin at the end of the day, stay at home.


Hey, my medals were pretty nice...
Just kidding. Well said.


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## wellis1840 (May 29, 2005)

They are extremely nice Hailey, I own one!


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## CLASSICHUNTER (May 20, 2005)

bill its not just for a medal as per first post 1250 dollars...involved.. changes whole venue of shoot when big cash involved....Hailie set your rules run with it and tweek it the following year but be receptive to shooter input..some good some bad...lol lol


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## wellis1840 (May 29, 2005)

You know what ted, I am still in it for a fun day and will get to shoot with some guys that I have not shot with before. Win some money great, if not, big deal. I expecting an enjoyable day with some new acquaintances, anything more is gravy. I do not agree with your statement “…._changes whole venue of shoot when big cash involved_”. The three top teams of four get to split $1250.00. Nice, but not worth creating a complexity of rules. There is no way to make all the teams equal in skills. Some teams will be stronger than others even with a random draw. Just their lucky day. Some good and great shooters will experience a bad day. Some lesser skilled shooters will have an amazing day. Hailey, Eric and their crew proved their organizational abilities at the Floyd Armstrong Shoot. Did it all on their own. Beyond amazing for their first time. So all here should accept that this is their show and their rules and then, let them be to do their business. What Hailey, Eric and their crew should be getting here is encouragement and commitment from this archery community, nothing more.


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## Haileebird (Jul 4, 2013)

That's why it's random assignment, it's impossible to balance the skill level and make it fair by hand selecting people. The money is just to ensure that something gets paid back. Whether we have 10 teams or 100 participate, we don't need to get rich or even mildly wealthy hosting tournaments. We just want to do them so that we can bring back a healthy tournament circuit of the P&P calibre while also getting the experience out of it for ourselves


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## Haileebird (Jul 4, 2013)

And thank you for the sincere compliment!


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## CLASSICHUNTER (May 20, 2005)

bill did you miss something in what I said in post previous to yours..and as per how they run their shoot .... maybe read my posts praising their efforts... I guess we are all entitled to our opinions...


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## Topper1018 (Feb 19, 2013)

lol, boys boys, we appreciate all the praise! but, we also appreciate any skepticism being voiced as well! This is the place to do it so we can deal with any issues that may arise before they actually do. All of your opinions are welcome, good or bad(or not necessarily bad but skeptical on one issue or another). If running a couple tournaments is something we end up doing on a regular basis, we want the shooters themselves to be heard and make sure we listen and cater as such. Archery here does not grow without those that are currently at the core.


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## Stash (Jun 1, 2002)

Here's a suggestion on a fair way to pick teams.

Once you know how many are registered, decide based on how many participants there are, how many teams there will be and how many archers per team. 30 people? 10 teams of 3. 100 people? 20 teams of 5. 

Everyone shoots a qualifying round - make it day 1 of a 2 day shoot, or the first 10 targets in the morning of a 1-day shoot.
Top scorers (1 per team) regardless of whether they are "pros" or not are the team captains. The rest of the teams are draw by random lot. Each team shoots together. Teams can discuss yardage. Scoring starts fresh for the team competition on the second day or the second half of the round.

To make it fair, since there might be some teams with fewer members than others, or less talented shooters, drop the low score on each target, or take only the top 3, or some variation.


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## Topper1018 (Feb 19, 2013)

Stash, thanks for the input. Rather than a qualifying, I was thinking on nameing shooters based on researching some tournament results and allowing nominations prior to the team event those names would then be recorded (similarily, in the asa all pro's and semi pros are registered and recorded) and if those shooters were to attend and register we would appoint them to a specific target, rather than a random grouping. As mentioned originally teams would be of 4 with the best 3 arrows at each target being scored, allowing for a one arrow drop. 3 isnt diverse enough for a team event and 5 would slow the pace of shooting. We will always run 40 targets in two ranges, so the possibility of 160 participants is there. Also, counting attendees and deciding team numbers the day of is asking for delays and complication in my opinion. The question then is do we have enough team leaders to cover attendance? One can not be sure, but we would then form teams randomely with the remaining participants. If this rubs anyone the wrong way we would have pre-registration open for anyone hoping to be placed with a definite team leader. 

As well, I want to add that while i very much support clubs efforts in giving away draw prizes and souvenirs, I feel the best way to award the top teams is by payback percentage from registration. I hope to create an atmosphere that allows shooters "door prize" for the day to be gained knowledge and experience by working with peers and other shooters. Something in my opinion is of greater value than trinkets (maybe the wrong word). Please dont take me the wrong way, I am just looking to simplify the day.


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## Haileebird (Jul 4, 2013)

That, and I don't have a year to run around collecting stuff for this one!! Lol


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## cody12 (Dec 7, 2004)

I'm in Like Dan said just show up leave your ego's at home enjoy the shoot maybe a bubbly after alls good at day end


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## Robert Piette (Mar 21, 2012)

Stash said:


> Here's a suggestion on a fair way to pick teams.
> 
> Once you know how many are registered, decide based on how many participants there are, how many teams there will be and how many archers per team. 30 people? 10 teams of 3. 100 people? 20 teams of 5.
> 
> ...


I think this concept is probably the easiest to manage and probably encourages more people to attend. The first 20 targets in the morning seed the teams for the afternoon. Teams can be evenly weighted based on scores. Example - One leader (high score), two mid range scores and one low. All morning scores carry through to the afternoon, and you simply add the total of the afternoon team round. That way it really doesn't matter who shows up, teams will always be arranged with one exception archer on that day, then 2 average, then one low/beginner (or visa/versa).

This way you don't have to worry about pre-regristration, or deciding who is a pro/semi pro and then worrying if you don't have enough leads and wehter they will show-up in the end.


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## Crashman (Jan 20, 2005)

cody12 said:


> I'm in Like Dan said just show up leave your ego's at home enjoy the shoot maybe a bubbly after alls good at day end


Well said Pete. 

To Topper and Hailee, as you guys already know it is almost impossible to please everyone at shoots like these. I am sure whatever you guys set up will be great and enjoyed by all.


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## Haileebird (Jul 4, 2013)

feedback is always useful, *****ing is not! Haha we appreciate everyone's input, seriously. I'm sure it'll be a good time!


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## Haileebird (Jul 4, 2013)

I think everyone is looking way too hard at "pro am" and not nearly hard enough at "team shoot". I think making the thread title "pro-am" was a mistake- the focus is on it being a team shoot, not so much a pro/semi pro event.


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## Bigjono (Apr 21, 2009)

I'm taking it this is an all compound event?


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## Haileebird (Jul 4, 2013)

Nope, it we can get a group or two of trad guys all are welcome.


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## kagetora13 (Dec 28, 2013)

Where is the tournament going to be held?


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## Haileebird (Jul 4, 2013)

We are exploring our options right now. We are hoping the lower Trent valley club can host a 40 target event, and if not we will approach Durham or Napanee


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