# Course management in 3d range ASA



## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

How would you shoot this target. 45yrds Pretty flat ground, maybe a slight downhill slope. I shot center with 42.5yrds and got a eight, thats my nock below ten line. Good thing I was shooting in the center.

Here a good example of digital camera makes targets look closer.


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## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

Another how would you manage it

33 yrds Javelina with slight dowhill. How would you manage this shot in ASA


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## MrKrabs (Dec 8, 2008)

I'm shooting K50 now so my take will be a little different than someone shooting unknown yardage. If I can find a good aiming spot I'm shooting for the 12 no matter what the yardage is. I'm not a big 14 shooter so my game plan is to hit 12's and minimize dropping points. With that being said I've only shot K50 twice now so the guys finishing at the top are likely following a different strategy.


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## MrKrabs (Dec 8, 2008)

By the way wolf and deer I would shoot for the 12. The Javelina I would seriously consider going after the 14 since there looks to be a good aiming spot.


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## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

MrKrabs said:


> By the way wolf and deer I would shoot for the 12. The Javelina I would seriously consider going after the 14 since there looks to be a good aiming spot.


K50 class is tough. You cant help be aggrssive if your going to win. Often wonder what some of your stragedys are on that. Javelina got a dime size 14 ring. Thats no gimme twelve at 33 yrds.
DB


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## nickel shooter5 (Dec 26, 2009)

DB I shot with your buddy Tony in London and he managed the cousre almost perfect, he shot for the connector on most and didnt gamble to much on the 14.. Only shot the ones he was sure on his shot.


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## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

nickel shooter5 said:


> DB I shot with your buddy Tony in London and he managed the cousre almost perfect, he shot for the connector on most and didnt gamble to much on the 14.. Only shot the ones he was sure on his shot.


Tony got a good coach. His father in law is Dan Hart. Tony has improved so much this year. You can tell he putting in the time to get there and certianly is. On the state level the known 50 and know 45 shoot same class. He got some compitition here on state level. Look forward to watching him the rest of the year.
DB


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## MrKrabs (Dec 8, 2008)

Daniel Boone said:


> K50 class is tough. You cant help be aggrssive if your going to win. Often wonder what some of your stragedys are on that. Javelina got a dime size 14 ring. Thats no gimme twelve at 33 yrds.
> DB


I've seen several different strategies in the guys I've shot with. Anything from shooting at every 14 to shooting at no 14's. The guys that are winning are aggressive, but smart about what they go for. I really like the class even though jumping to K50 in my first year of competing may not have been the best thing to do. It's making me step up my game that's for sure.


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

Course Management..... In other words; You gots to know your limitations. And each 3D range, regardless of the same target, presents a different course management. And throw in weather factors, rain, darknes, severe wind.


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## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

SonnyThomas said:


> Course Management..... In other words; You gots to know your limitations. And each 3D range, regardless of the same target, presents a different course management. And throw in weather factors, rain, darknes, severe wind.


What about Senior moments! Afraid Im getting to know my limations to well and not liking it. Just be happy to shoot a complete round and set my sight right the complete course.
DB


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## cenochs (May 2, 2007)

How well do you know the targets?

Do you have confidence in your equipment?

What is the furthest distance you are 100% sure you are deadly accurate

Is there an arrow to go off of in the target already?

Does the target have a good aiming point?

Is there an arrow in the way that may kick you out ?

How have you been shooting?

What score is leading? Need to be aggressive or safe?

Center 10 is always better that low 8!! And every now and then catch a 12 connector!!

Is your yardage been good for the round?

Did you walk the course and see how the layout was going to be before the round started? How many targets did you see that where potential 12's and how many did you see that center 10 would be the best play?


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## 3D_shooter84 (Feb 17, 2009)

Well, I shoot open B. My unknown strategy is to drop as few points as possible. Hold center 10 and if I hit a 12 great, if not hope I keep it in the 10. Now on the known day, I will gun for 12's and 14's out to about 35 yards if I'm holding good enough. If not holding to great that day I will hold connector line.


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## Kstigall (Feb 24, 2004)

Course strategy?
- The first thing an archer has to know is his strengths, weakness, tendencies and shot to the finest degree before he can even think about course management.

My "course management" is fluid. I may "go for it" on some shots and other times I may "back off". Each target is unique and each day shooting is unique I have to be standing in front of the target for a final decision on how to shoot it. My decision is almost solely based on "me" and rarely influenced by another. On the second day in London, KY I didn't make a single bad decision though I did hit two 8's. 

There are a lot of variables to consider when "managing a course". Single target "clips" aren't a good example of managing a course. How I shoot "this" target may be influenced by how I shot the previous target. Maybe I noticed I'm "off" on up hill shots so I go in soft on "this" target. Maybe I've been holding like a rock with perfect shot execution and I "go after" the 14 or 12 harder than "normal". Lighting, shadows or target marks effect where you aim. 

In London,KY I was more comfortable shooting at the 14 on the black bear at 32+ yards than the 14 on some 21.5 yard targets and the scores showed why. My short yardage marks were "weak" while the longer marks were perfect and I was shooting VERY good.

You start the weekend with a plan. But you have to be tuned into what is actually happening at any given moment to maximize your score. Just because you draw down on what has been a "gimme 14" doesn't mean you can't or shouldn't let down and start over shooting at the 12.


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## Kstigall (Feb 24, 2004)

Daniel Boone said:


> How would you shoot this target. 45yrds Pretty flat ground, maybe a slight downhill slope. I shot center with 42.5yrds and got a eight, thats my nock below ten line. Good thing I was shooting in the center.
> 
> Here a good example of digital camera makes targets look closer.


Why did you take 2.5 yards off? That seems a lot for "maybe a slight downhill" target. Did you have something to aim at that was 2 yards high?


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## 3Dblackncamo (Jul 22, 2009)

Daniel Boone said:


> How many have an idea on how they will shoot and manage the 3d course?
> 
> Always said it not how many 12 rings you shoot but how many 8's and fives you dont shoot.
> 
> ...


I like to shoot center 10 on long stuff, will shoot at connector if its a good target for me, dont shoot at 14s if I cant stay in the 10 how can I get a 14


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## tmorelli (Jul 31, 2005)

Great topic Dan,

This is a topic I discuss fairly regularly with my stepdad and have worked hard on this year. 

I think the best reply I've seen so far is Kent's. 

For me, it starts with a plan. The plan is developed in practice (skill development, risk evaluation, hit ratio's based on elements, etc). Those can only be determined through real practice. 

Then the plan has to be fluid and adaptable not only to the course but to the moment. For me, every target is a risk analysis. Visibility, other arrows in the target, footing, distance, past performance and experience on similar situations, recent performance, mental/physical state, etc all weigh in on my decision at the stake. All of that must be addressed mentally, decided and COMMITTED to before I raise the bow. If questions are rolling through your head about those things, you've self-destructed because shot quality will suffer.

Each target is unique in its own way but it is rare that I alter my point of aim more than an inch (inside of connecter to center of 12). If I'm going conservative, I still rarely come far off the connector unless I have zero visibility. I will pretty often play "yardage games" for convenience if I have aiming points in a vertical line from my desired POI (pull a 1/2 yard off, aim at an arrow above 12, etc)

The big difference for me after TX this year is this. A practice change that built a mindset change and a simultaneous equipment change. Basically I'll say that recognized the need to shoot some 14's and do it well in K45 but doing so always resulted in a more tense and lower quality shot so I was missing some I shouldve hit. 

After missing a couple of chip shot 14's in TX, I committed to solving it and went hard into practice on shooting 14's specifically. I quickly realized that on many targets, the 14's are a higher percentage shot (not higher risk). Consider that the 14's are often bigger and more visible (high side of target) than a low 12 (more often shaded by the target shape, "uncomfortably" low aka hard to hold on, smaller, etc). So now, I shoot 14's not in the mindset that they are higher risk (in certain situations) but as they are higher percentage. The biggest thing it did for me was give me confidence on my commitment to shoot them and a higher quality shot resulted. Since "the change" my rounds on 14's have been something like 6/7, 9/10, 4/4, 6/10 (archers for christ), 7/9 (KY). I'll leave out the crap round I shot @ bristow for convenience . All in all, I've gotten comfortable on the larger targets (assuming other factors are acceptable) out to about 38 yards, more on the corsican and ibex. 

The unforeseen benefit of that is a confidence that I know I can make my points when the time is right and take it easy on the higher risk targets. 

The unforseen downside to that was that I found myself "waiting" on 14 opportunities and not keeping the intensity high on the shots I shouldve been taking 12's on. Once I saw it, it was just a mental change to keep that intensity up on EVERY target. 

That's a lot about the target and conditions but I don't want to downplay my evaluation of myself. I know when I'm on and when I'm not.... That's got to be my single biggest factor in developing the game plan for maximizing score at each stake. 


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## tmorelli (Jul 31, 2005)

I shouldve also added this because I see so many shooters fall in the trap of "I need to make up points....." How often does that work? 

If I make a bad shot or have a miss that I am not 100% comfortable with, I back off the next target... Or two, or three........ (Yes, even if its a "chip shot"). This allows me to address whatever issue it is with minimum collateral damage and rebuild confidence.

Like an NBA jump shooter needs to see the ball go through the net, I need to see an arrow bury behind the pin. 

Nock out a couple good shots and I'll start rolling aggressive again as the course permits. 

Throw all that out the window for the pro's in the shootdown though 

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## keyman (Mar 22, 2003)

Very good topic. I would like to see more topics like this and would like to hear more opinions from other members on this topic.


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## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

Kstigall said:


> Why did you take 2.5 yards off? That seems a lot for "maybe a slight downhill" target. Did you have something to aim at that was 2 yards high?


Im shooting unmarked. I judged it short! Caught a eight just below the ten ring. Some are talking they shoot known distance.
DB


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## carlosii (Feb 25, 2007)

i cannot begin to see the "connector line" through my 4X lens. as a geezer of limited ability, i nearly always set out to shoot for the ten ring. if i don't have the skill to hit those, what business do i have shooting at connector lines or 14's?

good, informative discussion though.


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## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

How do you guys approch these sloped hill shots. Like the Wolf. Where it not only downhill but at 45 degree slope. 

Seems I fight my bubble constantly on these shots and get some rights and lefts. I let down alot of times and maybe should have done more. Dont get allot of chance to practice this around here.

I here guys talking they cant into the hill.


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## tmorelli (Jul 31, 2005)

Daniel Boone said:


> How do you guys approch these sloped hill shots. Like the Wolf. Where it not only downhill but at 45 degree slope.
> 
> Seems I fight my bubble constantly on these shots and get some rights and lefts. I let down alot of times and maybe should have done more. Dont get allot of chance to practice this around here.
> 
> I here guys talking they cant into the hill.


For me Dan, I level the bow when I raise and straighten my arm to draw it. I then keep it level through the shot.

If I draw the bow, hit my anchor and then have to make some huge level adjustment I can garuantee left-to-right misses. Can't really explain it, just know how I prevent it.

The other likely reason for missing is footing on a sidehill. If your toes are pointed downhill, the likelihood of a miss in that direction is increased. If the target is also sloping in the same direction, it is more so, much in the same way you are likely to miss low on a target leaned way back. I don't know why but just recognizing this while studying the target at the stake is enough correction for me. 

On the ups-and-downs, we don't have much in OK that requires much adjustment from line-of-sight/target judging due to slope. If the game is low 12, I'm more likely to cut yards just because of the target's percieved lean (looking down at it) and my tendency to not get low enough with my hold. 

And course management with regards to aggressiveness, aimpoint is really very similar with known vs. Unknown. The margin of error on yardage is only one more factor to weigh in to shot selection and it runs through the same process as all the others. My aimpoint doesn't really change much when I don't have the yardage. I aim where I'm comfortable and move the sight to address the likelihood of under or over judging. All of the other factors remain the same. If a man can't settle and commit to a yardage number, the result is a crappy shot. Its a discipline to put an end to the second guessing and make a good shot.


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## MrKrabs (Dec 8, 2008)

carlosii said:


> i cannot begin to see the "connector line" through my 4X lens. as a geezer of limited ability, i nearly always set out to shoot for the ten ring. if i don't have the skill to hit those, what business do i have shooting at connector lines or 14's?
> 
> good, informative discussion though.


I usually can't see the lines through my lens either. If I can find a spot that is what I aim for. That spot may be a hole from other people going for it, sun, elbow crease, etc.. I'm seriously thinking about going back to a clarifier which did allow me to see the rings in a lot of cases. If I can fix the left and rights I get with a clarifier I know I will go back.


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

*Course management in 3d range ASA*



Daniel Boone said:


> How do you guys approch these sloped hill shots. Like the Wolf. Where it not only downhill but at 45 degree slope.
> 
> Seems I fight my bubble constantly on these shots and get some rights and lefts. I let down alot of times and maybe should have done more. Dont get allot of chance to practice this around here.
> 
> I here guys talking they cant into the hill.


Test thing, DB. Shot field and drilled into me was canting into the hillside, draw and it will level out... I think it worked...been while since I shot field.
If I wanted my ear bent on the subject I'd contact field14.


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## Thornearcher (Sep 8, 2007)

I agree. a 300 with a couple of 12's for yardage miscalculation Is the safe way to play it. When others get aggressive, they tend to always be the ones to go for it and fall short. Maybe only 1 or 2 % actually are consistent enough to always be up. 

Now with that said. The 14 on a Mountain Lion is always a good bet as most are within 35 yards.


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## DanielMatthews (May 12, 2011)

I walk the course and give myself a realistic score of what I think I can shoot on the course. I shoot known distance so it's a little different for me than it is for u. I shoot at 12's and try to be far enough up that I dont "need" 14's. Depending on the difficulty of the course I try not to shoot at any 14's unless they are in my comfort zone.


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## tmorelli (Jul 31, 2005)

DanielMatthews said:


> I walk the course and give myself a realistic score of what I think I can shoot on the course. I shoot known distance so it's a little different for me than it is for u. I shoot at 12's and try to be far enough up that I dont "need" 14's. Depending on the difficulty of the course I try not to shoot at any 14's unless they are in my comfort zone.


Good reminder Daniel. There are some high level unknown guys doing the same type of surveying with great success.

I do similar and like to walk our ranges and look at "opportunities" and challenges. I also get a feel for where the scores will wind up. You can normally tell within a few points of where the top scores will lie on our ranges.


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## Jay-J (Apr 20, 2005)

Excellent thread!!!:thumbs_up


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## boweng (Aug 7, 2006)

I'm a recent starter in open C. We shoot lower 12's for unknown and upper twelves for known yardages (usually). I shoot the first half for center 10 anticipating dropping a few twelves and mainly targeting being up at the end of that round. I obviously go for any twelves that are closer in range but they tend to be far and few between. On big targets at medium range I will tend towards the connector if I can pick a good spot or have a good indicator. On the second half I target twelve but tend towards the connector. I only go for 14's on reasonable targets and if I'm shooting pretty good. 

Keep in mind that I'm not placing very high so maybe I've got the wrong approach. I too like this kind of discussin much better than the usual rant or complaint thread.


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## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

boweng said:


> I'm a recent starter in open C. We shoot lower 12's for unknown and upper twelves for known yardages (usually). I shoot the first half for center 10 anticipating dropping a few twelves and mainly targeting being up at the end of that round. I obviously go for any twelves that are closer in range but they tend to be far and few between. On big targets at medium range I will tend towards the connector if I can pick a good spot or have a good indicator. On the second half I target twelve but tend towards the connector. I only go for 14's on reasonable targets and if I'm shooting pretty good.
> 
> Keep in mind that I'm not placing very high so maybe I've got the wrong approach. I too like this kind of discussin much better than the usual rant or complaint thread.


One thing I would suggest is practicing those upper 12's on local level. I think your thinking right. Maybe keep a log on local shoots and remember which targets you seem to judge better and hit the majority of the time.

One thing I know the targets that I have trouble judging and often shoot center ten on them
DB


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