# NFAA indoor nationals issues



## rn3

Why would you need someone to tell you it was scoring end. You get 2 practice ends then score, been that way forever.


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## Hoytusa#1

No they was letting you shoot until they told you stop. It was done by how much time you had before it was your start time.


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## deadeyedickwc

two points here guys one is yes the announcers need to speak better not mumble,but the pa system in the hall isnt to good it was a combo of the two,as far as people not knowing when to shoot i can tell you of 2 girls who were to busy talking and didnt hear the announcment , and then tried to use that excuse we didnt hear them ,u need to pay attention ,


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## Jim C

I was there as a coach, not a shooter and was present for all three lines and on day one I did not hear-for TWO lines-an announcment that the scoring end was starting nor was there SCORING END NUMBER ONE announced. Secondly, on at least one line, there were three rounds of practice-the announcer stated IF YOU HURRY BACK WE CAN GET ANOTHER ROUND OF PRACTICE IN

I will note on sunday-the B line the announcer did ask everyone to raise their hands if they could hear his announcement that it was a scoring end.


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## Hoytusa#1

This happened to Pro shooters as well, there was a posting put from a PRO SHOOTER on Face book the first day of the same situation. I too was there as a coach and not as a shooter. How would you know if to young ladies was talking or not, I am sure you was not on the line shooting with them. Plus we had one young lady shoot 9 practice arrows that is on the Junior Olimpic Team and proceed to pull her arrows also, but got stopped after she had pulled out 5 of the 9 arrows. 
Yes, you are correct Sudnay was run better, the Referee's was walking down the line telling everyone that the next round was for score, but we still had the same situation that shooters was released to shoot with the referee's still at the target butt's.
The referee's on the lines need RED and GREEN stop signs to hold up, so the podium can seen them, before someone gets SHOT.


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## "Supertec"

Yeah that system was a joke ... i love the clocks too....oops we forgot to start them so that lines gets 4:40 seconds to shoot....

They blow the whistle to come to the line on my line and i look down the range and the clocks are already running and nobody on our line even has a bow in their hand. lmao...not that i really care ... 4 min is so freaking long anyway but its just the fact at how bad it was run ... I had three people ask me where to turn in cards caused they had no idea where to go .. 

I also enjoyed the building being locked up at 6:00 in the morning on sunday ... we snuck in through the hotel but still they wouldnt even open the doors till 6:45 - 6:50 to let the shooters in ...then it was running with the bulls...lol

Oh well i still had a great time ....and OMG how much weight does REO have on the end of that blade...hes awesome to watch.


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## Lien2

WOW. It's too bad big shoots like this can't go off without some kind of problem. C'mon NFAA.......... 

Lien2


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## Hoytusa#1

Reo shoots 21 oz on his 30 inch and 14 oz on his side bar last time I looked. I do not how he holds it up. I sure hate about htis shoot most of the time its great. I feal bad for the people that end up losing because the way things was done. The Line referee's did a gret job, it was just the PODIUM.


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## YankeeRebel

What is up with payouts? I heard 4th in Pro Mens Freestyle only paid $53.00. That would be a kick in the teeth.


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## r49740

I agree with Jim C above. I was there for most of it. I just wish it would be consistent and communicated.. not a run back after pulling arrows and maybe you will get three ends to practice. That is what we were told at the 7:30 line on Sunday. Why can't they just say 3 ends to practice(or 2 or 4 or whatever), communicate it on Friday before shooting begins, and then keep it the same for everyone? However, since it is a 5 spot round, why shoot 6, 7, etc arrows? 

I also saw some of the pro postings for $53 for 4th place. However, there were 15 of them that got paid that I believe. So 4th place payout was $795. There were 95 registered pros shooting at $225 each which is $21,375 total. After payouts there was about $8,700 left over to the NFAA. Not sure if they should payout more or not based on the expenses they have for the weeknd. I would assume that none of them would complain if they took home the 1st place check? Doesn't affect me since I am not in the pro class at this point, but at least in my opinion, Vegas is for shooting a 900 and Louisville is for shooting 120x. If you don't shoot those, then better luck next year. 119x is phenomenal shooting, but the game is to get the 120, not tie 14 others by dropping one. Unpopular opinion I'm sure, but along the same lines as to how a lot of pros say amateurs shouldn't get paid anything.


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## field14

r49740 said:


> I agree with Jim C above. I was there for most of it. I just wish it would be consistent and communicated.. not a run back after pulling arrows and maybe you will get three ends to practice. That is what we were told at the 7:30 line on Sunday. Why can't they just say 3 ends to practice(or 2 or 4 or whatever), communicate it on Friday before shooting begins, and then keep it the same for everyone? However, since it is a 5 spot round, why shoot 6, 7, etc arrows?
> 
> I also saw some of the pro postings for $53 for 4th place. However, there were 15 of them that got paid that I believe. So 4th place payout was $795. There were 95 registered pros shooting at $225 each which is $21,375 total. After payouts there was about $8,700 left over to the NFAA. Not sure if they should payout more or not based on the expenses they have for the weeknd. I would assume that none of them would complain if they took home the 1st place check? Doesn't affect me since I am not in the pro class at this point, but at least in my opinion, Vegas is for shooting a 900 and Louisville is for shooting 120x. If you don't shoot those, then better luck next year. 119x is phenomenal shooting, but the game is to get the 120, not tie 14 others by dropping one. Unpopular opinion I'm sure, but along the same lines as to how a lot of pros say amateurs shouldn't get paid anything.


Used to be that Pro "payouyts" were 80% of their registration fees? You said there was $21,375 total (95 men X $225 each), correct? So, 80% pay-back should have been a total payback of $17,100 in the Men's Freestlye Professional Division. I'm not going thru and adding this all up, but that is what the math says that total should be if they paid back 80% of the entry fees to the division.
I was indeed surprised that they didn't go back thru and figure out who dropped the X first and put that person on the bottom and worked their way up to the last person to drop an "X" got 4th place, but however the cookie crumbled is how they crumbled it. That would have been time consuming, but for the number of shooters involved, they could have had time to do this between 3PM and 7PM, IMHO.
Maybe some pros would have grumbled, but most would have understood, I think.

It is sad when you get 4th place in a NATIONAL TOURNAMENT...and don't even get your entry fee back, however!!! Some tournaments earlier on this past indoor season had 17th place getting way more than their entry fee back, and the host didn't have $21,375 to work with!

field14 (Tom D.)


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## Champion Shootr

PMFS 
1st-$7500
2nd-$3000
3rd-$1500
4th-$53X15=$795
5th-$22X11=$242
Total payout=$13037


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## r49740

80% of the appx. $21,000 registration fees should be about $17,000. Looks like the payouts were short about $4,000 then.


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## S4 300-60

Here are some numbers from past years in comparison to 2011:

‎2009:
95 shooters in PMFS
$22,699 paid back
26 shooters recieved checks

2010:
101 shooters in PMFS
$23,028 paid back
34 shooters recieved checks

2011:
95 shooters in PMFS
$13,037 paid back
29 shooters recieved a check


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## J Whittington

Im sorry this happened to so many good shooters that spent hard earned money to attend this Legendary event. What a shame. Is this a sign that indoor target archery is on a decline? IF what I read is accurate, then this event in Louisvlle was not treated as it should have been. Its the the dang indoor NATIONALS...not leg night at Bubba's beer and barbeque.


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## "Supertec"

IT had a good turn out too...i believe there was over 1300 archers at this event. Being my first National Event i had a great time but....it just seem to very un-organized. I can deffinalty see i need alot more time behind the bow ... i have been shooting now about 3yrs and started shooting dots with my wife two years ago so i thought i did good. I took 4th in Flight 5 for BHFS and shot a 296/43x and a 299/36x ... gave me a total of 595 with 79x .. got beat for third in my flight by 1x. lol ... Congrats to Dan reed and Travis Johnson on great finishes as well....i believe Dan finished 6th in flight 1 and Travis was 10th in flight 1. 

Had a blast though and can't wait to shoot another National event.


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## field14

r49740 said:


> 80% of the appx. $21,000 registration fees should be about $17,000. Looks like the payouts were short about $4,000 then.


Check the NFAA website again...there evidently was a decimal error in the postings that wasn't caught....I think you'll find things are now correct. The $53 has become $538, and the $22 has become...$220. 

Goes to show that once again, just one more time....WE "jump the gun" and start crying over things right out of the hat....and REFUSE to give 'em time to set things straight. 
The exact same thing goes on if they do a RUSH JOB on those line time assignments and lane assignments...they get MESSED UP and delayed even longer that DOING IT RIGHT THE FIRST TIME.

Once again...the "arm-chair quarterbacks", the "masses" are NOT, I Repeat NOT entitled to "top priority" when it comes to scores posting, especially on the internet/web-site. The PAYING CUSTOMERS COME FIRST...as they well should. You want "instant results", then attend the tournament and either compete or watch. Better yet, attend the tournament and VOLUNTEER TO HELP.

The pay back, based upon 95 shooters in that Men's Pro Division is per the NFAA standard for than many registrants in a division.

field14 (Tom D.)


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## field14

field14 said:


> Used to be that Pro "payouyts" were 80% of their registration fees? You said there was $21,375 total (95 men X $225 each), correct? So, 80% pay-back should have been a total payback of $17,100 in the Men's Freestlye Professional Division. I'm not going thru and adding this all up, but that is what the math says that total should be if they paid back 80% of the entry fees to the division.
> I was indeed surprised that they didn't go back thru and figure out who dropped the X first and put that person on the bottom and worked their way up to the last person to drop an "X" got 4th place, but however the cookie crumbled is how they crumbled it. That would have been time consuming, but for the number of shooters involved, they could have had time to do this between 3PM and 7PM, IMHO.
> Maybe some pros would have grumbled, but most would have understood, I think.
> 
> It is sad when you get 4th place in a NATIONAL TOURNAMENT...and don't even get your entry fee back, however!!! Some tournaments earlier on this past indoor season had 17th place getting way more than their entry fee back, and the host didn't have $21,375 to work with!
> 
> field14 (Tom D.)


I now have to eat crow...the "corrections" have been made....Once again, even I got sucked into "jumping the gun" and not giving a fair chance to allow things to meld together. This is exactly what we get when we try to PUSH THINGS and give NEGATIVE feedback...it puts those in "control" OUT OF CONTROL...and helps to cause significant errors to be made as a result of "doing a rush job."

field14 (Tom D.)


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## KP/Recurve

I remember that as well... In fact i was on the shooting line when the refs were down at the targets. At first none of us raised our bows but the refs down there motioned us to shoot so we did. This happened 2 times!

We also only got 2 or 3 practices before scoring which really messed me up. Im used to the half hour practice and then the 2 OFFICAL practice ends.

But i have to admitt that it was very fun! And i will be there next year!


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## brtesite

There has been a lot of talk about not hearing the PA system. & not knowing that what is the first scoring end. We tried to give a little extra time for practice before the scoring . In vegas it averages 4 ends ,12 arrows. In Louisville it is 3 ends 15 arrows. 


I think I will bring it up that In vegas 2 ends practice before scoring ,6 arrows, & Loiusville 2 ends , 10 arrows. 

this way we don't even have to announce what is going on . Once you start shooting, you can count 2 ends & then you will know that you better be ready to shoot. 
This way , the NFAA doesn't take the heat


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## Jim C

brtesite said:


> There has been a lot of talk about not hearing the PA system. & not knowing that what is the first scoring end. We tried to give a little extra time for practice before the scoring . In vegas it averages 4 ends ,12 arrows. In Louisville it is 3 ends 15 arrows.
> 
> 
> I think I will bring it up that In vegas 2 ends practice before scoring ,6 arrows, & Loiusville 2 ends , 10 arrows.
> 
> this way we don't even have to announce what is going on . Once you start shooting, you can count 2 ends & then you will know that you better be ready to shoot.
> This way , the NFAA doesn't take the heat


that would be a good idea-that is what we do in the NAA indoor nationals-two ends. the problem was Mike (and I was there for all three lines on Saturday) was no consistency. One line it was clearly announced SCORING END NO. ONE. Not so on the B line on Saturday. I heard too many people say they didn't hear the announcment-people who have tons of experience including a world field champion (compound) who is now Young Adult NFAA recurve champion to a former US National Target champion to several newbies.


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## brtesite

Jim C said:


> that would be a good idea-that is what we do in the NAA indoor nationals-two ends. the problem was Mike (and I was there for all three lines on Saturday) was no consistency. One line it was clearly announced SCORING END NO. ONE. Not so on the B line on Saturday. I heard too many people say they didn't hear the announcment-people who have tons of experience including a world field champion (compound) who is now Young Adult NFAA recurve champion to a former US National Target champion to several newbies.


Jim, we tried to give all the practice that we can to accommodate the shooters, but i guess that it can't happen . We used to do 2 ends only, but tried to give more
I was on the mike Sat. for the A line & 1/2 of the B line as we work 6 hr shifts. I announced every end what was going on to the best of my ability 
Some times the shooters are to busy visiting each other to pay attention
Just like when they forget to turn in the score cards & if we refuse them , it is still our fault.


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## Jim C

I have run enough tournaments to know that no matter how hard you try there will always be problems that sometimes result from people not paying attention and for the most part the NFAA indoor is a top tournament that we really push our members to attend. I merely note that some lines it was obvious when scoring end ONE started-for others it was not.


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## "Supertec"

Kinda what im saying ... I was a newbie there as this was my first national event. I had a good walk through with my wife who shot pro for 14yrs so i knew what to expect. I had my bow in hand waiting on the last shot from the previous line and kept my eye on the clocks to start rather than the whistle all the time. And of course the obvious things like not knocking arrows down range when people where still down range .... i saw alot doing that one. Anyway it was a great time and i look forward to many more.


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## r49740

field14 said:


> Check the NFAA website again...there evidently was a decimal error in the postings that wasn't caught....I think you'll find things are now correct. The $53 has become $538, and the $22 has become...$220.
> 
> Goes to show that once again, just one more time....WE "jump the gun" and start crying over things right out of the hat....and REFUSE to give 'em time to set things straight.
> The exact same thing goes on if they do a RUSH JOB on those line time assignments and lane assignments...they get MESSED UP and delayed even longer that DOING IT RIGHT THE FIRST TIME.
> 
> Once again...the "arm-chair quarterbacks", the "masses" are NOT, I Repeat NOT entitled to "top priority" when it comes to scores posting, especially on the internet/web-site. The PAYING CUSTOMERS COME FIRST...as they well should. You want "instant results", then attend the tournament and either compete or watch. Better yet, attend the tournament and VOLUNTEER TO HELP.
> 
> The pay back, based upon 95 shooters in that Men's Pro Division is per the NFAA standard for than many registrants in a division.
> 
> field14 (Tom D.)




Actually if you read my first post you'll see that I wasnt "crying" over the payouts. I was commenting on the pros that were upset that they just got $53 for their 4th place finish, but there were 15 of them that came in "4th" place. It appears that for flights they place people based on 1st x dropped.. why not do that for the pros as well? Then there aren't 15 4th place finishers, etc. I wasn't crying about that at all, my opinion is that the payouts are posted and since it's Louisville then it should be the 120x to get a nice payout. Same thing with Vegas being a 900 to get to a good payout.

What I feedback, or crying according to above, was that there was not a lot of consistency in how the lines were run. If the NFAA would just state ahead of time that there will be 2 ends, or 3 ends or whatever to practice, then it will never be an issue that falls on them. Until there is consistency and good communication, this will continue to be a problem. 

Also, for Mike at Britesite, has the NFAA ever considered having 2 way radios for the line judges to communicate with the booth? As you know there were a few times the line judges tried to hold the line and it didnt happen. I'm sure trying to see them behind the shooting line is tough, so why not use some radios to communicate and just make it easier and safer? I believe Indiana does that for their state tournament so they may be able to give some guidance as to what they use successfully.


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## field14

I agree that two practice ENDS "should" mean just that...TWO practice ENDS and NOT shoot as many arrows as you can in 4 minutes. IMHO, that is asking for problems and whining because some will "get" more arrows shot for "practice" than others. Only recently has this come about that there is no longer "TWO OFFICIAL PRACTICE ENDS" before scoring begins, and it has really, again, IMHO gotten people all mixed up on what the heck is going on.

I'd like to see the return to the "standard" two official practice ENDS (NO MORE THAN 5 ARROWS PER END) and then scoring begins, no if's and's or but's about it. Then, there can be no whining and crying about, "the 7AM line got 3 ends, and our 11 AM line only got two." EVERYONE gets exactly the same number of ends and exactly the same number of practice arrows before scoring begins.
That always worked well in the past, without any confusion, so why was this allowed to become a confusing thing of late? 

INCONSISTENCY always breeds whining and crying, along with mistrust and confusion. If everyone gets exactly the same thing every time, then there is no reason or excuse for them to pee and moan.

Just my thoughts on this particular issue. All you have to do is tell the competitors, in advance, and again during announcements, the way it IS GOING TO BE, and keep it that way, for everyone, througout the event...end of whining and crying and confusion.


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## titanium man

S4 300-60 said:


> Here are some numbers from past years in comparison to 2011:
> 
> ‎2009:
> 95 shooters in PMFS
> $22,699 paid back
> 26 shooters recieved checks
> 
> 2010:
> 101 shooters in PMFS
> $23,028 paid back
> 34 shooters recieved checks
> 
> 2011:
> 95 shooters in PMFS
> $13,037 paid back
> 29 shooters recieved a check


Wow! I've been shooting 35 years, and I still can't believe PRO payouts are still pathetic!! Even with archery company matching monies, it just doesn't seem worth the aggravation. Not much incentive with those kind of payouts. Granted if you win them all, it's a pretty good living, I guess, but in comparison, archery is way behind the eight ball in getting corporate money, archery or non-archery, behind them.


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## DarrinM

I was not there this year but common sense says shoot TWO practice ends then score.....

Of course if you shoot more than five arrows in the practice end pull the highest scoring arrows.... Oh wait it's a non scoring end 
So there is no score to warrant a penalty. I have shot many big tournaments and I have shot over the prescribed number of arrows and I have shot less.... The end is 4:30 shoot the end and if some can get more than five shots so be it!

And while you are doing the practice ends walk the line and pull the poorly dressed goat smelling shooters 

Sometimes I really miss the game!


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## carlosii

DarrinM said:


> I was not there this year but common sense says shoot TWO practice ends then score.....
> 
> Of course if you shoot more than five arrows in the practice end pull the highest scoring arrows.... Oh wait it's a non scoring end
> So there is no score to warrant a penalty. I have shot many big tournaments and I have shot over the prescribed number of arrows and I have shot less.... The end is 4:30 shoot the end and if some can get more than five shots so be it!
> 
> And while you are doing the practice ends walk the line and pull the poorly dressed goat smelling shooters
> 
> Sometimes I really miss the game!


howdy. nice to see a post from you. your kind are sorely missed on here. :thumbs_up


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## field14

titanium man said:


> Wow! I've been shooting 35 years, and I still can't believe PRO payouts are still pathetic!! Even with archery company matching monies, it just doesn't seem worth the aggravation. Not much incentive with those kind of payouts. Granted if you win them all, it's a pretty good living, I guess, but in comparison, archery is way behind the eight ball in getting corporate money, archery or non-archery, behind them.


The 2011 information you quoted is INCORRECT. There was a decimal error on the intial posting that has since been corrected....Go to the NFAA Web-site to get the CORRECT numbers.
Don't forget...those top winners also got sizeable checks for "contingency" and for "contract" money from sponsors. I'd venture to guess that Scott Starnes "payout" for the weekend was probably over $20,000 total. (I know from pictures that it is at the minimum $17,500, just from the NFAA winnings and his PSE Contingency check), plus rest assured he has other sponsors besides PSE... Not a bad TWO DAY total.

field14 (Tom D.)


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## Hoytusa#1

Most of the time thats the way it's done, but not this year, some got 2 rounds, some got 3 rounds and some got 1 round.


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## brtesite

Hoytusa#1 said:


> Most of the time thats the way it's done, but not this year, some got 2 rounds, some got 3 rounds and some got 1 round.


Don't believe some only got one round


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## brtesite

Hoytusa#1 said:


> Most of the time thats the way it's done, but not this year, some got 2 rounds, some got 3 rounds and some got 1 round.


there was always enough time for 3 ends, except when the shooters dilly dally , have to fix a hole Or shoot the crap with their partners. if there was not enough time for 3 ends, it was the shooter fault.
I will bring it up for 2 ends only & then go. We tried to do a little extra for the shooters, & we get get a crap storm .


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## brtesite

DarrinM said:


> I was not there this year but common sense says shoot TWO practice ends then score.....
> 
> Of course if you shoot more than five arrows in the practice end pull the highest scoring arrows.... Oh wait it's a non scoring end
> So there is no score to warrant a penalty. I have shot many big tournaments and I have shot over the prescribed number of arrows and I have shot less.... The end is 4:30 shoot the end and if some can get more than five shots so be it!
> 
> And while you are doing the practice ends walk the line and pull the poorly dressed goat smelling shooters
> 
> Sometimes I really miss the game!


 Lazarus , welcome back. The rule is that you can shoot as many as you wish with the allotted time.
Had my wedgies put in . Seems to be helping


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## Mike2787

brtesite said:


> there was always enough time for 3 ends, except when the shooters dilly dally , have to fix a hole Or shoot the crap with their partners. if there was not enough time for 3 ends, it was the shooter fault.
> I will bring it up for 2 ends only & then go. We tried to do a little extra for the shooters, & we get get a crap storm .


I disagree with you on this one Mike. My line on Saturday got two practice ends. It WAS NOT the fault of dilly-dallying archers. There was a problem with one of the bales and a group of archers had to be relocated. This wasted 5 minutes. Then it was announced that practice was over, even though my watch still had 5 minutes of practice time to go. I heard the announcement that the next end was the first scoring end so I was ready, but the PA system was lacking and there were several people who did not hear it. I'm not placing the blame on any one. It just seems that there should be some type of uniformity. 

Go back to two official practice ends. There was nothing wrong with the way it was before.


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## field14

Mike2787 said:


> I disagree with you on this one Mike. My line on Saturday got two practice ends. It WAS NOT the fault of dilly-dallying archers. There was a problem with one of the bales and a group of archers had to be relocated. This wasted 5 minutes. Then it was announced that practice was over, even though my watch still had 5 minutes of practice time to go. I heard the announcement that the next end was the first scoring end so I was ready, but the PA system was lacking and there were several people who did not hear it. I'm not placing the blame on any one. It just seems that there should be some type of uniformity.
> 
> Go back to two official practice ends. There was nothing wrong with the way it was before.


I'd agree with Mike's assessment TWO PRACTICE ENDS ONLY...and that would mean "legal ends" and NOT shoot as many as you can in the allotted time. Too much disparity in allowing them to shoot as many as possible, and too much room for baby boys/girls to cry and whine. Give them 2 ENDS of FIVE arrows each for "official practice" and then, on with the show. CONSISTENCY is the key to this.
I remember a Sectional shoot about 15 years ago. We were told we got two practice ENDS before scoring began. Well, some yahoo decided he was going to shoot 6 arrows on his second practice end. He got nailed for it and lost a point on his first scoring end. The ruling of the loss of that point stuck, too.

Mike, you are right...give 'em an inch....and they'll take a mile...next thing you know...they'll ask for a HALF ROUND OF PRACTICE...then an HOUR's worth. It ALWAYS worked just fine when it was TWO ENDS (and that meant 5 arrows per end and no more) of practice and then "go for score". There wasn't any variance, and nobody got any more than that, but could, if they so chose not take any practice ends.
My opinion concerning all this "warm up and practice" ahead of time? "They" won't like me and will bust my B$$$S over it...but...NOT NECESSARY, and a waste of good line time that can well be used to move those times closer together. They gripe about the scores not getting posted soon enough...well....it could be 1.5 hours SOONER or maybe MORE....if that 1/2 hour of practice before line times was eliminated and NOT GIVEN to them.
People don't realize that they probably shoot their best arrows of the day and waste them by piddling around that 1/2 hour.....

Heck, you can use the old "field course rule" concerning ....NO PRACTICING WILL BE ALLOWED ON THE COURSE BEING USED LATER IN THE DAY FOR THE TOURNAMENT" or however that RULE is written. The "range" is the course to be used...so NO PRACTICE before-hand. "On the course" you get your two offical practice "ends" (targets) and then on with the show.
Remember again, "Give 'em an inch, and they'll want a mile."
Thanks for all that you do in trying to 'smooth over the water' and also for your years and years of VOLUNTEERING your time to help run these tournaments and the administrative stuff. SOME of us understand it and appreciate it.

field14 (Tom D.)


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## Mike2787

field14 said:


> I'd agree with Mike's assessment TWO PRACTICE ENDS ONLY...and that would mean "legal ends" and NOT shoot as many as you can in the allotted time. Too much disparity in allowing them to shoot as many as possible, and too much room for baby boys/girls to cry and whine. Give them 2 ENDS of FIVE arrows each for "official practice" and then, on with the show. CONSISTENCY is the key to this.
> I remember a Sectional shoot about 15 years ago. We were told we got two practice ENDS before scoring began. Well, some yahoo decided he was going to shoot 6 arrows on his second practice end. He got nailed for it and lost a point on his first scoring end. The ruling of the loss of that point stuck, too.
> 
> field14 (Tom D.)



I don't care how many arrows you shoot in your allotted time. I don't see the problem.


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## field14

Mike2787 said:


> I don't care how many arrows you shoot in your allotted time. I don't see the problem.


Just with the whiners and cry-babies...'He/she got to shoot 15 arrows, and I only got to shoot 10, that ain't fair"....So if it is 10 MAXIMUM for EVERYONE, then nobody gets any more that anyone else. Just the consistency of it, to stop that aspect of the whining and crying.

Heck Mike, next thing you know, they'll be asking for a 20 minute break at the target change, "cuz that's what we do in LEAGUES"....hahaha.

field14 (Tom D.)


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## r49740

field14 said:


> Just with the whiners and cry-babies...'He/she got to shoot 15 arrows, and I only got to shoot 10, that ain't fair"....So if it is 10 MAXIMUM for EVERYONE, then nobody gets any more that anyone else. Just the consistency of it, to stop that aspect of the whining and crying.
> 
> Heck Mike, next thing you know, they'll be asking for a 20 minute break at the target change, "cuz that's what we do in LEAGUES"....hahaha.
> 
> field14 (Tom D.)



Why is it that any of the feedback that the actual shooters that participated at the shoot give is considered crying/whining if it isn't what you are recommending- especially when you are basically saying the same thing that everyone else is.. that being that we just want consistency. Pick a number of practice ends and thats it.


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## "Supertec"

Amen !!


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## ArcheryNut2006

Why would someone need more than two ends of practice. My thinking is that if you did not bring your "A game" with you to the tournament, you are not going to find it in two, three, or even five practice ends either.


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## titanium man

field14 said:


> The 2011 information you quoted is INCORRECT. There was a decimal error on the intial posting that has since been corrected....Go to the NFAA Web-site to get the CORRECT numbers.
> Don't forget...those top winners also got sizeable checks for "contingency" and for "contract" money from sponsors. I'd venture to guess that Scott Starnes "payout" for the weekend was probably over $20,000 total. (I know from pictures that it is at the minimum $17,500, just from the NFAA winnings and his PSE Contingency check), plus rest assured he has other sponsors besides PSE... Not a bad TWO DAY total.
> 
> field14 (Tom D.)


I'm glad it was Scott, but my point being it's still a low payout compared to other Pro Sports.


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## field14

r49740 said:


> Why is it that any of the feedback that the actual shooters that participated at the shoot give is considered crying/whining if it isn't what you are recommending- especially when you are basically saying the same thing that everyone else is.. that being that we just want consistency. Pick a number of practice ends and thats it.


Guess it might be because of the "whinging/crying" that is always going on about anything and everything if someone or group even thinks that someone else got something different than someone else.
Warm ups/practice ends/time has always been a minor peeing match and has seemingly gotten worse the past 10 years or so with people demanding separate practice areas (indoors), 30 minutes advance practice on the shooting line before "official practice" begins, wanting to shoot a full quiver of arrows instead of "two official practice ends"...and it has just led to the most recent 'small battle' at this year's nationals.

Yes, you said it better than I did..."We just want consistency, pick a number of practice ENDS, and that's it." NO MORE, and less at the option of the shooter. A shooter does NOT, as you know HAVE to take those practice ends if they don't want to, ha. Those that choose not to take 'em all, or any of them, aren't the ones griping...they make their choice.

field14 (Tom D.)


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## Hoytusa#1

The way I see it is we must of hit a nerve. They know, their self that things, was not, run up to par, as it has been in the past. I had several of the NFAA staff agree that the sound system was bad, so if they knew they had this problem then why didn't they do something about it. The system was so bad that you have referee's down range with arrows being released. I have been to better run shoots in 3d. You say that people are whinging&crying, this is not a game when there is this much at stake. Some of you need to think what would you have done if this had happened to you or your family or friends, after all the practice you have done to get ready for this shoot and the money that you have spent to make this happen. As far as the two ends that would not be a problem. 
As far as people just talking on the lines instead of practing, I did not see that and I know for sure my student was making sure things was working as they should be, with different lighting. The turn out seams to be going down each year, why is that, is it because of how it's being run? We had less vendors set up then ever before.
If the people in charge do not want to make sure that this is a CLASS shoot as it has been in the past, then maybe it time to step down and let someone else take it over.


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## NEVADAPRO

Mike, I would say to do that at the Indoor Nats where they are having issues, not at Vegas where it is run very well!! Everyone and I mean everyone has appreciated the extra few practice ends at Vegas! It was two ends of practice for YEARS at Vegas and it was a blessing when you guys changed it to a 1/2 hour before your actual shooting time. Especially in a tournament where you can't afford to drop a baby "X"!! Instead of changing tournaments that work because of one that has issues....let's work on the one with the issue's!! Lets not move backwards!! Archery has done that enough over the 35 years I've been shooting. You guys do an awesome job at Vegas and I for one appreciate it!! SO let's not go backwards...OK!?!?!!!!! Thanks for all you do Mike!!! God bless



brtesite said:


> There has been a lot of talk about not hearing the PA system. & not knowing that what is the first scoring end. We tried to give a little extra time for practice before the scoring . In vegas it averages 4 ends ,12 arrows. In Louisville it is 3 ends 15 arrows.
> 
> 
> I think I will bring it up that In vegas 2 ends practice before scoring ,6 arrows, & Loiusville 2 ends , 10 arrows.
> 
> this way we don't even have to announce what is going on . Once you start shooting, you can count 2 ends & then you will know that you better be ready to shoot.
> This way , the NFAA doesn't take the heat


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## NEVADAPRO

ArcheryNut2006 said:


> Why would someone need more than two ends of practice. My thinking is that if you did not bring your "A game" with you to the tournament, you are not going to find it in two, three, or even five practice ends either.


Have you ever shot the 7:30am line at Vegas? Even most of the Pro's that I have spoken with were happy with the few extra ends of practice. And unless you are shooting 4-5 ends in your hotel room before your shooting time, you will always shoot better with 3-4 ends to loosen/warm up! It really has nothing to do with bringing your "A" game...it has more to do with getting your muscles warmed up and ready to shoot. God bless


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## brtesite

Hoytusa#1 said:


> The way I see it is we must of hit a nerve. They know, their self that things, was not, run up to par, as it has been in the past. I had several of the NFAA staff agree that the sound system was bad, so if they knew they had this problem then why didn't they do something about it. The system was so bad that you have referee's down range with arrows being released. I have been to better run shoots in 3d. You say that people are whinging&crying, this is not a game when there is this much at stake. Some of you need to think what would you have done if this had happened to you or your family or friends, after all the practice you have done to get ready for this shoot and the money that you have spent to make this happen. As far as the two ends that would not be a problem.
> As far as people just talking on the lines instead of practing, I did not see that and I know for sure my student was making sure things was working as they should be, with different lighting. The turn out seams to be going down each year, why is that, is it because of how it's being run? We had less vendors set up then ever before.
> If the people in charge do not want to make sure that this is a CLASS shoot as it has been in the past, then maybe it time to step down and let someone else take it over.


 First of all, the attendance was up ,as for the sound system, there is nothing that can be done as it belongs to the convention center. 
You make it seem that no one ever heard the announcements. no mater where you go , there is always 2% that don't get the word. We had some turn in their cards late because they said they didn't hear where to do it. Don't you think when you have 500 people standing on line to do any thing you might want to know what is going on. Who do you suggest to take over if we step down. You want perfect, use your spell check


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## r49740

brtesite said:


> First of all, the attendance was up ,as for the sound system, there is nothing that can be done as it belongs to the convention center.
> You make it seem that no one ever heard the announcements. no mater where you go , there is always 2% that don't get the word. We had some turn in their cards late because they said they didn't hear where to do it. Don't you think when you have 500 people standing on line to do any thing you might want to know what is going on. Who do you suggest to take over if we step down. You want perfect, use your spell check


I'm not a electronics person myself, but how about a microphone hooked up to 3 or 4 speakers on each side of the room down the line behind the shooters, and then 2 way radios between the booth and the line judges? Everyone on the line and even behind the line can hear, and the boothe won't start the clock and blow the whistle until the line judges are in a safe place. Then just state the Friday before how many practice end will be given, and what times the lines will be on Sunday. People could plan their trip home, be prepared and understand what to expect with practice. The issue won't be pushed on convention center, the problem would be fixed, and then everyone is happy? Not really that hard once the reality sets in that maybe some changes are needed to run the shoot more effectively. Instead of taking it so defensively, maybe take it into consideration and then move forward. But just stating that those that have suggestions are just whining and being crybabies, or passing the buck to the convention center on other issues, that doesn't get anything done.


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## Hoytusa#1

Thats all any of us want. The saftey issue is a real big concern, but yet they do not want to talk about that.


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## field14

NEVADAPRO said:


> Have you ever shot the 7:30am line at Vegas? Even most of the Pro's that I have spoken with were happy with the few extra ends of practice. And unless you are shooting 4-5 ends in your hotel room before your shooting time, you will always shoot better with 3-4 ends to loosen/warm up! It really has nothing to do with bringing your "A" game...it has more to do with getting your muscles warmed up and ready to shoot. God bless


Hype and psyched yourself into THINKING you need more "warm-up", IMHO. There are other ways to 'get warmed up' to shoot a tournament than to take up valuable line time with "more practice ends" to shoot better...BS....IMHO. You do NOT need to SHOOT YOUR BOW to warm up those muscles! The practice ends should be sufficient to "finish" the warming up of your muscles AND to check your equipment to see if something has slipped. I always use the time before practice begins, and always have, to warm up my SHOOTING muscles...and not flap my jaws until AFTER that is accomplished and those muscles "loosend up". 
Yes, it IS about bringing your "A" game...cuz if it isn't there when you hit the shooting line....it isn't going to magically appear, hahahaha. Too much "practice" before scoring begins can work more against you than it can for you. You may well have shot your best arrows of the day and wasted a ton of them on nothing.
If a person PRACTICES correctly during tournament preparations so that they don't NEED to have the "psychological" thing concerning practice before a tournament, then having only 10 arrows for "official practice" isn't going to bother them one bit. It is when they use "warming up for 30 or 40 or 50 shots before scoring" that a person puts themselves into a rut. 
Sure the Pros appreciate the extra...but do they NEED it? Heck NO! Because they've prepared themselves for the MINIMUM practice time and look at any extra that MIGHT appear as a bit of a bonus. Most of the pros can step up to that line and shoot cold turkey without ANY practice ends if need be. Can't say that for very many mid-level shooters or newbies. They have convinced themselves that "I NEED at least 20 or 30 arrows, or maybe 1/2 hour before I'm ready to score." BS.

Now, that being said....the key here is MAKE A DECISION....TWO Practice ENDS, or 3 Practice ENDS...period...and NO VARIANCES from line time to line time either day. Make it stick, and don't be wishy-washy about it. As long as people know what to expect and that it will be consistent, things will be just fine.

I agree with Mike LePera, however....there are going to be 10% (hopefully less, haha) that NEVER get the word no matter how many times it is put into print, posted, announced, re-announced or whatever...People just do NOT pay attention.

Take a gander around you sometime when the tournament announcements are being covered just before the line starts....MOST of the people are chit-chatting and no more paying attention than the man in the moon. Then, they blame the "announcer" or someone else because they didn't "hear" the specific instructions given....that were also in PRINT ON THEIR BROCHURES, which they also did NOT READ.

I don't think the NFAA should feel one bit sorry for those not listening during the announcements...If the system isn't working quite up to snuff...the people knew this because it is so obvious. Then why not be quiet and listened MORE closely. Myself, if I wasn't hearing the announcements, I would have sought out a place where I could hear them better. I sure wouldn't have been talking and kibitzing.
As Foghorn Leghorn says, "Pay attention, son, you might learn sumpin' ". hahahaha.d


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## Jim C

The NAA only has two practice ends and they are two minutes each so I agree with you on that note Field

however, I disgree with other points. I am a coach with a fair amount of experience. I did not hear TWICE any announcement of SCORING END NUMBER ONE at either the A line or B line on Saturday. I also noted there were discrepancies as to the number of practice rounds from line to line, day to day. And no I was not chit chatting with anyone. This was my seventh year at this shoot-I have shot three years and coached, and coached exclusively the last four. I also have helped run 5 national level events including the 04 Olympic trials, two national target championships and two JOAD nationals. This is the first tournament I have attended where I could not tell when the transition from practice to scoring took place. 

and I commend the "podium" controller on Sunday for (the B line-kids and pros) asking everyone to raise their hands to show they understood scoring was to start.


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## field14

Jim C said:


> The NAA only has two practice ends and they are two minutes each so I agree with you on that note Field
> 
> however, I disgree with other points. I am a coach with a fair amount of experience. I did not hear TWICE any announcement of SCORING END NUMBER ONE at either the A line or B line on Saturday. I also noted there were discrepancies as to the number of practice rounds from line to line, day to day. And no I was not chit chatting with anyone. This was my seventh year at this shoot-I have shot three years and coached, and coached exclusively the last four. I also have helped run 5 national level events including the 04 Olympic trials, two national target championships and two JOAD nationals. This is the first tournament I have attended where I could not tell when the transition from practice to scoring took place.
> 
> and I commend the "podium" controller on Sunday for (the B line-kids and pros) asking everyone to raise their hands to show they understood scoring was to start.


THAT kind of inconsistency does indeed have to stop. That is why I still strongly feel that TWO "official practice ENDS" ("end" meaning 5 arrows, not empty your quiver) before scoring starts should be the standard. Set the "standard" abide by it, and NEVER vary that. Of course, the host will still have to "announce" it, but again, 10% aren't going to get the word...but at least if it is CONSISTENT and done the same for everyone every time....nobody has a gripe coming, correct?

We talk about the "shooters" paying attention to details? Well, since you were there and witnessed this, then apparently, the HOSTS need to pay more attention to "details" too. Can't expect the students to pay attention to details if the "teacher" isn't bothering with them or making those "details" important.

field14 (Tom D.)


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## Jim C

I agree with two practice ends but consistent with FITA the time should control not the number of shots. as long as you do not shoot after the whistle or the light turns red, we judges (I am a Regional NAA Judge with a fair amount of experience as both a line judge and a DOS) shouldn't need to inspect targets to count arrows


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## field14

Jim C said:


> I agree with two practice ends but consistent with FITA the time should control not the number of shots. as long as you do not shoot after the whistle or the light turns red, we judges (I am a Regional NAA Judge with a fair amount of experience as both a line judge and a DOS) shouldn't need to inspect targets to count arrows


Agreed. Could live with this...again CONSISTENCY and the same for everyone.


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## kejog

You talk about the pros being shorted. Quick calculations had over 470 FS and BHFS men and women at say 85.00 a piece that over 40.000. All for a bowl or a metal. Was that hall that expensive to rent,


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## rock monkey

kejog said:


> You talk about the pros being shorted. Quick calculations had over 470 FS and BHFS men and women at say 85.00 a piece that over 40.000. All for a bowl or a metal. Was that hall that expensive to rent,


not every amateur is looking for a payday. spots and field, unlike 3D, people shoot it for personal reasons as a priority rather than a personal financial gain. PROs, different story. they know they pay to play the money game.


it kills me to see how fast EVERYONE not involved with the PRO ranks or even in the NFAA game is just chompin at the bit to throw the NFAA under the bus for whatever reason they can justify. when people sign up for the amateur classes in the nfaa, they understand they wont get paid just to show up. some people value a trophy and it's meaning of accomplishment more than some pocket change that gets forgotten after the first stop for gas. try goin to the local high school and look at their trophy case. there's a TON of pride along with the hard work and sacrifice that goes with it that everyone can appreciate. if your name is on it, even more so.

i'm not a PRO and i wont ever claim to be until i earn the title.

were there things that could have been done better? of course. some things are just not fixable at the nfaa level. try getting an electrician to plug in a display's power cord at the IX center in cleveland. hope you arent in any hurry. when renting a hall or building, you're at the mercy of the building's staff and it's facilities. it'll get fixed when THEY want to fix it. once you indentify the problem, you adapt, overcome and improvise.

when you have a party in your apartment, and your toilet overflows, do your guests blame you? nope....just one of those things. apply the same idea on a scale of 1300 person apartment and you might get a clue.


i'm no fan of how the nfaa conducts their business and i dont hide it. i even call them out on some things, but i also offer a suggestion too. when it comes to bustin their chops about things out of their control or a larger than normal workload, give em a break. the door is ALWAYS open for you to help.....have you? try running a shoot. coordinate the logistics to get the bails there and set up. get the lanes marked. work in the catering and vending aspect. some people just dont see it that way. i guess it just miracles itself.


unfortunately, in the misguided notion of trying to please everyone, the nfaa suffered. both in this shoot and overall long-term. it's time that the rules be made, established and enforced EVENLY.....regardless if it's PRO or joe. there are too many classes. there are too many divisions of classes that blur the boundaries. there are too many 'exceptions to the rules' given to the pros but heavy hand enforced on the non-pros.

in the case of the PA system, if the nfaa went by the 2 practice end rule, EVERYONE would know that the third shot end on that time would have been a scoring end regardless of whether or not they heard the announcement. dynamic environment, ok. dynamic management, not ok. by trying to appease the masses with a timed practice period, it failed. no consistency from what i'm reading. some are feeling cheated, some are crying and others are looking for excuses.

make the rules, follow the rules, enforce the rules.....on EVERYONE, EVENLY.


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## field14

I have a solution to the Lousiville problem, when it comes to "RENTING A BUILDING"....VERY simple solution.

Let's have the NFAA UTILIZE the indoor facility in Yankton, SD for the NFAA National Indoor tournament! Then, there is NO RENTAL for the facility. There are NO transportation costs to get the bales and bow racks, target faces, and all the other required items from Yankton to any other location. 
Your STATE ASSOCIATION can PAY FOR the "transportation and lodging" for the NFAA Directors and councilmen to get to Yankton a week early to help set it up, too. Right now, I do think that some of those NFAA Directors foot the bill on their own, because they care enough to try to keep the Vegas shoot, the NFAA Indoor Nationals, the NFAA Outdoor Nationals, and the First Bank shoot viable and running for the archers to come and enjoy! I do know some states to pay the transportation costs for the directors to attend the National meeting...but not so sure about the Vegas shoot, Nationals, etc...

Don't like that Idea, do you? NO you don't, cuz you all gotta have it where you want it, and find fault with whatever location is chosen regardless....

There is a ton more to the costs of running a tournament, IN ADDITION TO, the "rental" of the building space. How did all those bales, bowracks, etc get to Louisville...they walk there on their own? Obviously a lot of the naysayers have never operated a tournament and had to account for the costs of running the tournament and having things there that are required to do so. TIME is money, too. If you all want to improve things, then VOLUNTEER your TIME and come on down to help; you'll be in for a real eye-opener as to what goes on behind the scenes.

AMATEURS do NOT compete for money in the NFAA, period, plain and simple...you want a payout, then ante up and join the PRO organization. I don't think you will ever see a "semi-pro" half-way house in the NFAA either.

Rock Monkey is right on target with his post above (Pun intended).

I'd even propose that the NFAA do away with the Divisions and classes...but continue to FLIGHT the people (excepting in the PRO (Championship) Division.

You can still have the age brackets for CUB, Youth, Young Adult. You can still have Male and Female. But after that....SCORE dictates everything. A 300 50X is a 300 50X regardless of who shoots it or what equipment they use. Hey, in the flights at Vegas, they do it...and it WORKS...of course, Vegas is a completely different beast in that the FLIGHTS get money too...I'm not in favor of amateurs competing for money, but at VEGAS this format has worked for years.
I personally wouldn't favor it for other NFAA events, however...be reminded that Vegas is a WAF event, using most NFAA rules.

Costs for running a sanctioned event would drop drastically, and we also wouldn't have two gazillion "National Champions" either. But of course, those naysayers, in this world of entitlement won't go for that idea either....Afterall, "I" showed up, so I have to get an award of some sort to make it worth my while to come play the game.

$85 registration in this day and age for a National Event? That is, IMHO DIRT CHEAP, considering what it represents. But again, today's people think they are "entitled to some award or payout" just for showing up.


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## MOPARLVR4406

an input from the Joe perspective
and for the record I could not attend L'ville this year 

I have had issues with the extra practice rounds since thier inception
it screws with my game...and waiting for others to shoot thiers does too
I think it was an add with good intentions but undesireable to many
it has always been 2 practice and score since I have been doing this and it works ok.

the sound system has always sucked at that convention center
just gotta listen a little closer.

delays are a fact of life at nationals
a couple of years ago on Sunday a line I wore out a target and never shot an arrow at it
it was from being moved 6 times before the round started
I don't blame the NFAA for this...I blame the inconsiderate amature shooters that decided shooting tha early am line wasn't worth thier time since they shot like crap on Saturday and just didn't show up.

Archery is all about consistancy
Major tournements should be consistant also
IMO...make rules...stick to them...I will follow them or not come.....pretty easy.
I would never attempt to run an event of that scope
so MY hat is off to the NFAA for doing the best they could with what they had to work with :thumbs_up

and to the Joes that take things too seriously....lighten up...it's a game
I am not a pro nor even near being in contingency for any amature title or award
I shoot for the fun and comradary and go to see friends made over the years past
Friends I see only at Nationals.

_that_ is what the NFAA Nats mean to me.


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## Hoyt_em

Hoytusa#1 said:


> Reo shoots 21 oz on his 30 inch and 14 oz on his side bar last time I looked. I do not how he holds it up. I sure hate about htis shoot most of the time its great. I feal bad for the people that end up losing because the way things was done. The Line referee's did a gret job, it was just the PODIUM.


There is a group from the local club that went to his "class"...they said the weight on the bars was nothing compared to how hard the pull is on the release...he stated it took a couple people two hands to get it to pop. He apparently does that because it is near impossible to have an early release.


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## possum trapper

Indoor Nationals should have 2 practice ends then get to scoring.It takes long enough and you should beable to get loosened up with at least 10 arrows.

Vegas can stick to a half hour practice.It works great,the round is fairly short and most people feel the get their monies worth


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## m2racing

If a practice round is concidered sling as many arrows as you can in the alloted time then why wouldnt a scoring round be the same? In my opinion if a round is five arrows it shouldnt matter if its a scoring round or practice round! Shouldnt be hard for a national event to have rules and stick with them. Tell everyone there will be 2 rounds of practice (10 arrows) then 12 rounds of scoring (60 arrows) after that who ever has 300 60 x with last 10 inside out will be the winner!!!!


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## field14

m2racing said:


> If a practice round is concidered sling as many arrows as you can in the alloted time then why wouldnt a scoring round be the same? In my opinion if a round is five arrows it shouldnt matter if its a scoring round or practice round! Shouldnt be hard for a national event to have rules and stick with them. Tell everyone there will be 2 rounds of practice (10 arrows) then 12 rounds of scoring (60 arrows) after that who ever has 300 60 x with last 10 inside out will be the winner!!!!


A "Round" is NOT 5 arrows. For the NFAA blue face, a ROUND is 12 ENDS of 5 arrows each, for a total of 60 arrows for a ROUND.

I'd hate to see how long a tournament would last with 12 ROUNDS of scoring....very few people would be willing to shoot 720 arrows a day for a tournament!

and YES...it MAKES A DIFFERENCE concerning "round" versus "end."

You are sure correct, however in that TWO "ends" (you said rounds which is 120 arrows for practice), and then scoring begins for 12 ENDS of scoring (you said 12 rounds, which is a total of 720 arrows).

field14 (Tom D.)


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## Jim C

m2racing said:


> If a practice round is concidered sling as many arrows as you can in the alloted time then why wouldnt a scoring round be the same? In my opinion if a round is five arrows it shouldnt matter if its a scoring round or practice round! Shouldnt be hard for a national event to have rules and stick with them. Tell everyone there will be 2 rounds of practice (10 arrows) then 12 rounds of scoring (60 arrows) after that who ever has 300 60 x with last 10 inside out will be the winner!!!!


so if someone only shot 4 arrows in a practice end you would penalize them 5 ponts? Look-4 minutes of practice-shoot as many arrows as you want like FITA has been doing for years. If you want to shoot one arrow-fine-10 fine-as long as you don't violate the clock. I like shooting 7 or so to make sure my backup arrows or bolts (depending on what event I enter) are consistent. What are you going to do-have the judges check each practice round to make sure no one shot more than 5 arrows?

jeeez


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## ohioarcher300

practice ends are to warm up and check equip. Good point Jim


Jim C said:


> so if someone only shot 4 arrows in a practice end you would penalize them 5 ponts? Look-4 minutes of practice-shoot as many arrows as you want like FITA has been doing for years. If you want to shoot one arrow-fine-10 fine-as long as you don't violate the clock. I like shooting 7 or so to make sure my backup arrows or bolts (depending on what event I enter) are consistent. What are you going to do-have the judges check each practice round to make sure no one shot more than 5 arrows?
> 
> jeeez


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## r49740

ohioarcher300 said:


> practice ends are to warm up and check equip. Good point Jim


The reality is the nmber of arrows shot in the practice ends has nothing to do with any of the issues that happened at the Nationals. The issues were that the number of scoring ends was inconsistent and the sound system didnt work the way it should. The end result should be deciding on how many practice ends to give(2 or 3), and then how to fix the audio system(again, how about just a few cheap speakers up and down both ends with a wireless mic and 2 way radios for the line judges to communicate with the booth. I would think that would solve both problems.

Archery- and usually when it comes to sponsorship money from corporations - seems to get to be a topic that is related to golf and how the PGA has been able to get enough sponsorship money that the pros can make a living shooting their bow. So why woudl practice be any different? In scoring, they hit 1 ball off the tee per hole. However, out of curiousity, does the PGA tell the pros that they are limited to how many balls they hit at the driving range before hand in the morning, or does the golfer do whatever he/she wants as long as their at their tee box at the right tee time? I'm pretty sure the PGA doesn't tell a pro they can only drive 10 balls before having to go play. Just a thought.


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## m2racing

Jim C said:


> so if someone only shot 4 arrows in a practice end you would penalize them 5 ponts? Look-4 minutes of practice-shoot as many arrows as you want like FITA has been doing for years. If you want to shoot one arrow-fine-10 fine-as long as you don't violate the clock. I like shooting 7 or so to make sure my backup arrows or bolts (depending on what event I enter) are consistent. What are you going to do-have the judges check each practice round to make sure no one shot more than 5 arrows?
> 
> jeeez


I'm not saying that the judges need to count everyones arrows to see how many they shot in a practice "end" but if everyone on the line was only allowed 5 arrows in their quiver it would be hard to shoot more than 5 wouldnt it? Allow every archer 5 arrows while on the line and in the event an arrow is damaged while shooting that shooter has the option to replace it before the next "end" begins.


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## m2racing

r49740 said:


> The reality is the nmber of arrows shot in the practice ends has nothing to do with any of the issues that happened at the Nationals. The issues were that the number of scoring ends was inconsistent and the sound system didnt work the way it should. The end result should be deciding on how many practice ends to give(2 or 3), and then how to fix the audio system(again, how about just a few cheap speakers up and down both ends with a wireless mic and 2 way radios for the line judges to communicate with the booth. I would think that would solve both problems.
> 
> Archery- and usually when it comes to sponsorship money from corporations - seems to get to be a topic that is related to golf and how the PGA has been able to get enough sponsorship money that the pros can make a living shooting their bow. So why woudl practice be any different? In scoring, they hit 1 ball off the tee per hole. However, out of curiousity, does the PGA tell the pros that they are limited to how many balls they hit at the driving range before hand in the morning, or does the golfer do whatever he/she wants as long as their at their tee box at the right tee time? I'm pretty sure the PGA doesn't tell a pro they can only drive 10 balls before having to go play. Just a thought.


Have you ever seen a golfer walk up to the tee box the day of an event and hit balls from that box? No because that doesnt happen! No one is telling you not to shoot as many arrows as youd like when preparing for an event. When the event begins is when the rules should apply. If the rules state that an "end" is five arrows than everyone should only be allowed five arrows! If the rules state an "end" is four minutes than it should be as many as you want to shoot in four minutes and score the best five!!


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## m2racing

ohioarcher300 said:


> practice ends are to warm up and check equip. Good point Jim


 Why would you even be scoring a PRACTICE END?


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## Jim C

m2racing said:


> I'm not saying that the judges need to count everyones arrows to see how many they shot in a practice "end" but if everyone on the line was only allowed 5 arrows in their quiver it would be hard to shoot more than 5 wouldnt it? Allow every archer 5 arrows while on the line and in the event an arrow is damaged while shooting that shooter has the option to replace it before the next "end" begins.


its a stupid limitation that makes no sense. why do you care how many arrows another archer shoots in practice? I am curious how many big tournaments have you shot? at the big outdoor nationals there are practice ranges and I have seen people there 2 hours before the official practice ends warming up


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## Jim C

m2racing said:


> Why would you even be scoring a PRACTICE END?


you seem to understand now so who cares how many arrows are shot in a PRACTICE END


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## 60Xbulldog60X

Mike, 

Last year was perfect. The shooters got 30 minutes of practice then 2 official practice ends and then scoring started. This year, it was changed to 30 minutes practice, no official practice ends and straight into scoring. Every year something is different, there is always some kind of change. I have personally witnessed 2 shootoffs done differently at the very same event. 

I honestly think the 30 minutes of practice, then 2 official practice ends is the way to go. Especially in Vegas where the practice range is small. That will give plenty of time to get loose and check equipment before scoring starts. It also opens up the practice ranges.


Take care,

Kendall


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## m2racing

Jim C said:


> its a stupid limitation that makes no sense. why do you care how many arrows another archer shoots in practice? I am curious how many big tournaments have you shot? at the big outdoor nationals there are practice ranges and I have seen people there 2 hours before the official practice ends warming up


I could care less how many arrows another archer shoots before an event, or during an event for that matter, but when some archers get different treatment during the event it becomes a problem! All I am saying is it should be the same for everyone! If you are on the line at 9 o'clock and they tell you if you hurry maybe we can get another "end" of practice after allready shooting 2 "ends" of practice and I'm on the line at 11 and shoot 5 arrows in 4 minutes and they say next "end" is a scoring end after 1 "end" of practice would that be right? All I'm saying is when you step up on line at the time you are told to be there all rules should be the same for everyone. I have only shot in one indoor tournament because I have only been shooting a compound for 1yr. At that particular tourn. I arrived 30 minutes before time to shoot at 11. I shot as many shots as i could for thirty minutes to sight in and warm up. At 11 oclock 16 archers steped up to the line and it was announced this is a practice "end". Everyone shot five arrows then retrieved arrows. It was then announced this is the second and final practice "end" next will be a scoring "end". Some archers shoot and others waited for the scoring "end". After arrows had been retrieved everyone then shot 12 scoring "ends" of 5 arrows.


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## r49740

m2racing said:


> I could care less how many arrows another archer shoots before an event, or during an event for that matter, but when some archers get different treatment during the event it becomes a problem! All I am saying is it should be the same for everyone! If you are on the line at 9 o'clock and they tell you if you hurry maybe we can get another "end" of practice after allready shooting 2 "ends" of practice and I'm on the line at 11 and shoot 5 arrows in 4 minutes and they say next "end" is a scoring end after 1 "end" of practice would that be right? All I'm saying is when you step up on line at the time you are told to be there all rules should be the same for everyone. I have only shot in one indoor tournament because I have only been shooting a compound for 1yr. At that particular tourn. I arrived 30 minutes before time to shoot at 11. I shot as many shots as i could for thirty minutes to sight in and warm up. At 11 oclock 16 archers steped up to the line and it was announced this is a practice "end". Everyone shot five arrows then retrieved arrows. It was then announced this is the second and final practice "end" next will be a scoring "end". Some archers shoot and others waited for the scoring "end". After arrows had been retrieved everyone then shot 12 scoring "ends" of 5 arrows.


 Your post above where you quoted me and this post are completely contradictory, with the second one agreeing below. The rule is 4 minutes. For scoring it is 4 minutes for 5 arrows. For practice it is just 4 minutes. They can not say 4 minutes for 5 arrows for practice since some people don't shoot practice. So since the rule is 4 minutes, just state ahead of time that every line gets either 2 or 3 practice ends, and then thats it. Just keep that part the same. If you want to shoot 10 arrows per practice end, but stay within the 4 minutes, that doesn't matter. Since some don't take any practice shots, if you take even just 1, then you are already doing something that they don't do. For practice, the time limit and number of ends should be the only thing that matters... not how many you shoot during practice. I have not seen golfers hit balls from the tee box, but there is a driving range that is available for them. So until the NFAA grows large enough to have another whole facility of which every archer can practice, then shooting as many arrows as desired in practice shouldn't be an issue as long as it is within the 4 minutes.

To say every archer only gets 5 arrows in their quiver is a mistake.


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## Jim C

r49740 said:


> Your post above where you quoted me and this post are completely contradictory, with the second one agreeing below. The rule is 4 minutes. For scoring it is 4 minutes for 5 arrows. For practice it is just 4 minutes. They can not say 4 minutes for 5 arrows for practice since some people don't shoot practice. So since the rule is 4 minutes, just state ahead of time that every line gets either 2 or 3 practice ends, and then thats it. Just keep that part the same. If you want to shoot 10 arrows per practice end, but stay within the 4 minutes, that doesn't matter. Since some don't take any practice shots, if you take even just 1, then you are already doing something that they don't do. For practice, the time limit and number of ends should be the only thing that matters... not how many you shoot during practice. I have not seen golfers hit balls from the tee box, but there is a driving range that is available for them. So until the NFAA grows large enough to have another whole facility of which every archer can practice, then shooting as many arrows as desired in practice shouldn't be an issue as long as it is within the 4 minutes.
> 
> To say every archer only gets 5 arrows in their quiver is a mistake.


agree totally. the other poster is off track IMHO trying to regulate uniformity in NUMBER of practice arrows vs. NUMBER of Practice ends (which should be the same on Saturday for sure--where the classes don't shoot together) On Sunday its less of a problem because everyone in a given class shoots at the same time


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## field14

I agree that allowing only 5 arrows in a quiver is a bad idea. If a person has a nock that is busted, then by allowing only 5 arrows in the quiver, said person wouldn't have any "spares" to cover the broken nock. Same if a vane comes loose, or an arrow "loses a tip in the bale". OR....if the person drops his/her arrow out in front of the shooting line, or an arrow is "sent" forward, but within the 10 foot line. The shooter cannot step forward to pick up that arrow, and delaying the shooting line for this so that a line judge can pick it up will torque off the other shooters on the line. Claiming an "equipment failure" for a busted nock or loose vane is pretty "weak", especially since I believe the current rule says something like "the shooter must have enough arrows in their quiver to allow for breakage, damage, or lost arrows." (something like that???).

However I still solidly feel that TWO "practice ends" of 4 minutes each for the NFAA Indoor, and TWO practice ends of 2 1/2 minutes each for Vegas is ample...and NEEDS TO BE THE SAME, ALL THE TIME, and on BOTH DAYS (or all three if for Vegas), for EVERYONE, regardless of line time, division, or whatever. This way people know TWO is the magic number, and then it is for real.
Don't go changing it from two on Saturday to three on Sunday, or vice-versa...that is inconsistent and asking for problems.
I could live with the TWO ends of practice, each end is 4 minutes (or 2 1/2 minutes for Vegas), and in that time, shoot as many as you WANT to....Not such a big deal; it is THEM that are going to be that much more tired at the end of the round.....especially those that spent 1/2 hour or more "practicing" before the line time...and most likely shooting their best arrows of the day THEN. Turns their day from 70 arrows to 120 or more arrows...THEY are the ones that will tire out, haha.
field14 (Tom D.)


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## FV Chuck

60Xbulldog60X said:


> Mike,
> 
> Last year was perfect. The shooters got 30 minutes of practice then 2 official practice ends and then scoring started. This year, it was changed to 30 minutes practice, no official practice ends and straight into scoring. Every year something is different, there is always some kind of change. I have personally witnessed 2 shootoffs done differently at the very same event.
> 
> I honestly think the 30 minutes of practice, then 2 official practice ends is the way to go. Especially in Vegas where the practice range is small. That will give plenty of time to get loose and check equipment before scoring starts. It also opens up the practice ranges.
> 
> 
> Take care,
> 
> Kendall


BEst Idea so far.....


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## deadeyedickwc

i think the reason the half hour practice was started was because of the lack of practice area at louisville,you cant practice then people ***** ,if you do practice people ***** so whats the answer, vegas will have a much bigger practice area next year i believe so that wont be a issue their


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## FV Chuck

Tom D. -

What lines did you shoot by the way (Vegas and Louisville).... not being a jerk, just curious?


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## field14

FV Chuck said:


> Tom D. -
> 
> What lines did you shoot by the way (Vegas and Louisville).... not being a jerk, just curious?


Chuck,
Never bothered to go to Louisville; can't afford it these days, and in the past, I lived too far away. I've been to Vegas several times, and frankly, I shot like crap, haha. 
When I was shooting really well before the health problems hit, I lived too far away and couldn't afford a "vegas run". I do shoot, now, in Senior Men's Freestyle (for another year and a half, then I graduate to Master Senior, haha), and do NOT even fathom "getting my stuff back together" well enough to be able to compete with the likes of Steve Boylan. However, Steve and I do shoot together, and we are close friends.

It isn't about what "field14 shoots", or what lines "field14 shoots); it is about CONSISTENCY, and it is in offering my opinions on consistency that is important, IMHO.
If "they" make it TWO ends for one line...then by golly it is TWO ends for ALL the lines. If they make it 3 ends, then fine...but 3 ends for EVERY SINGLE LINE BOTH DAYS, or at Vegas, ALL THREE DAYS. No wishy-washy, "if you hurry up, we'll squeeze in 3 ends for you guys." Cuz when the other lines that hear bout it and they only get 2 ends...all heck is going to break loose.

Having been a tournament chair for many, many events over the past 45+ years....the key to running an event is CONSISTENCY and COMMUNICATION...just as it is in the classroom...no wishy-washy stuff, and whatever you do, you do NOT treat one group/person differently from another...or you get into big doo-doo real quick.

By the way, we met each other at Vegas two years running. We chatted at the, what was it then, "Splash Bar"? Talked a lot about "sponsorships" and how people were abusing those items?????

field14 (Tom D.)


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## FV Chuck

I remember well meeting you several times Tom... not trying to stir things up I just thought I missed you somehow at the last couple but in my sometimes foggy memories wasnt exactly sure, look in the results and couldnt find you and wasnt sure why???... Sorry man like I say not trying to stir, was just wondering.


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## rock monkey

ok.... lets try to combine a few ideas and i'll play devil's advocate.

30mins of practice with/without 2 ends of practice to start the game still requires a reliable and functional public address system. how do the archers in the parts of the hall farthest from the wall clocks and speakers know when their half hour is up and they begin the '2 official practice ends'? what if the speakers fail or the cables get cut/disconnected? what about the control board for the sound system? is there a back-up communication system like the officials with radios? 100+ bales is a rather large area to patrol. increase that with 100+ bales on the other side and the officials are gonna need help.

i think the timed practice period has more negatives than positives if the above failures occur.

if those going there prep for the event by only shooting the venue format of 2 practice ends and score, they will be better prepared in the long run. the gabbers wont 'not hear' or claim to 'not hear' the announcements.

if some feel they need more time for practice, petition and push for an extra end or practice to be added to the rules. if you need to shoot a half hour to loosen up, you're gonna tire out at about halftime when you combine the physical with the mental demands and stresses of shooting in a big tourney. that can be good or bad, depending on your perspective. for me, shooting 60arrows at the indoor nats is more tiring than shooting 112 on a field course.


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## field14

FV Chuck said:


> I remember well meeting you several times Tom... not trying to stir things up I just thought I missed you somehow at the last couple but in my sometimes foggy memories wasnt exactly sure, look in the results and couldnt find you and wasnt sure why???... Sorry man like I say not trying to stir, was just wondering.


The last time I attended Vegas was the time of the "incident" where my brothers about had a duking it out contest with a couple of idiots that were observing my tremor....and said, "Look at that guy out there, he is so nervous and shaking so badly, they should take him off the shooting line before he hurts somebody." Of course, my brothers had to tell me about this on Saturday, dang it. That would have been better left alone, since I never heard it, and in this case...what I didn't know would NOT have hurt me. However, once I heard this, the tremor situation wore on me, and that Vegas tournament was my last competition; that incident completely took out the "fire" and drive to even bother with competitions. I've struggled ever since....to the point of changing back to left-handed about 15 months ago...the tremor is gone, but the memory of that "shaking on the line" still persists. Can't say I want to waste my time bothering with spending the bucks to compete anymore.....mental game has gone completely "out South" to la-la land somewhere.

I still pay my dues to the associations, still run the Presley's December tournament, and still run the leagues and help people, however. Paying my dues to the associations still gives me the right, just like every other paid member to express my opinions, just as it should, know what I mean? Been tempted to run for NFAA Director, but only tempted....I"m not "politically inclined" because I do call the kettle black a bit often; as if nobody on here has ever noticed, hahahahaha.

I did attend Vegas two years ago, as a spectator....and I will say that it was very enjoyable to have my freedom to roam, observe, kibitz, and go to the "seminars and/or discussion groups" without being tied down to a particular regimen or line time. Pretty expensive to just go and watch, however, know what I mean?

Tom D. (field14)


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## reaperjb7

2 Practice ends are perfect! Just use the 2 side walls for practice instead of vendors and bags. Vegas I felt was great but a lot smaller rooms. Again... Let us warm up with another practice range, go with 2 practice ends or 3 Just make it consistent! Vegas was not 4 it was 3 20 mins in and they said well we can't get a full practice in in so now we start!


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## FV Chuck

#1 - As A Vendor I object to this by the way.....
#2 - Are we even sure the NFAA has enough bales to even add a practice range?
#3 - If we are going to add a practice range then we need practice officials... since we pretty much maxed out the volunteers we had, who's going to work it from 6:30am to 7pm for 2 or 3 days ???... ( I could quote your sig here but you would probably think I was being a jerk) ...
#4 - Bow Storage, and Vendors are a) good funding for NFAA, b) Vendor fees helps to pay the rent on the building...less vendors might result in higher registration fees. I certainly dont think the NFAA is in a position to start turning away people who are interested in adding to the sport.


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## brtesite

Folks I've been reading all of these posts, And as one who is involved with all of the situations & who is involved with all of the work, I'm a little Pissed off. It's funny that the ones who complained the most never did any of the work.
We tried to give more practice time for you guys, but the complaints are that not every one got the same . They say it isn't fair. Your right life is not fair. Some times due to Unforeseen situations, not every one gets the same practice. Maybe the sound system was not up to par. it wasn't ours. We can't just bring in sound systems, just like we can't bring in food for sale.
At our next meeting , I'm bringing up my solution. it will need no announcements , only a whistle . Two practice ends & go. As long as you can count, you will know where you're at. That means 8 min. for the indoor, & 5 for Vegas. That will take care of being consistent as every one wants.


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## blueglide1

I totally agree with Mike on this.Two ends and go.Just like any other local,state,sec tournaments.Why does Nationals need a half hour?The only announcments needed is archers to the line,from then on your on your own to pay attention.


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## r49740

Why are people getting pissed off and offended? Consistency is all anyone has asked for since the first post. Just pick a number of practice ends and then everyones happy. No reason to get pissed about that. 

The sound system... I think the ones that have a right to get pissed are the line judges. Theres no reason the NFAA cant either use their own system or have cheap 2 way radios to communicate line judges with the booth. The line judges were the ones that were put in an unsafe situation, and they should be pushing for changes as well. Not sure how the one blowing the whistle should be pissed, or why anyone else is pissed at all since people are giving suggestions on how to make it easier and better. I guess I look at feedback differently.


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## field14

brtesite said:


> Folks I've been reading all of these posts, And as one who is involved with all of the situations & who is involved with all of the work, I'm a little Pissed off. It's funny that the ones who complained the most never did any of the work.
> We tried to give more practice time for you guys, but the complaints are that not every one got the same . They say it isn't fair. Your right life is not fair. Some times due to Unforeseen situations, not every one gets the same practice. Maybe the sound system was not up to par. it wasn't ours. We can't just bring in sound systems, just like we can't bring in food for sale.
> At our next meeting , I'm bringing up my solution. it will need no announcements , only a whistle . Two practice ends & go. As long as you can count, you will know where you're at. That means 8 min. for the indoor, & 5 for Vegas. That will take care of being consistent as every one wants.


Agreed. TWO practice ends is sufficient and consistent. In addition, it is consistent with the NAA/FITA, and also consistent with how many practice targets are given prior to starting to score for field and hunter rounds as well.

The old adage, "give 'em an inch and they'll want or take a mile" sure holds true. It adds to the problem and rarely does it solve things.

In addition to this, by ridding things of that unnecessary 1/2 hour advance practice time before the established line time, there is the potential of the following four important things:

1. People pee and moan over the 7AM starting times on Sunday at the Nationals and Vegas. By eliminating the 1/2 hour advance practice....The NFAA/WAF could investigate moving that time to 8AM instead of 7AM!
2. People pee and moan over the scores and line assignments not being posted "early enough"....by eliminating that 1/2 hour advance practice time, the line times on Saturday & Sunday (and at vegas, Friday AND Saturday AND Sunday), and be moved closer together, thus having things, if they run right, done 1 1/2 hours EARLIER than in the past...this should then give allowances for the scores tallying and posting to be done and ready 1 1/2 hours SOONER.
3. Savings on target faces and the amount of time the voluteers are out there having to monitor this and monitor that.
4. People won't be kibitizing and chatting so much and dilly-dallying once they know that there isn't such a long period between shooting lines. The changeovers may well run smoother, since people will know others are waiting NOW and chomping at the bit to get their space on the line.

field14 (Tom D.)

field14 (Tom D.)


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## MoBuzzCut

I understand that things happen. I understand that not all will be pleased, but I do feel that there needs to be some changes. Mike do you think that it was okay for line judges to be holding the line and the judges stand to tell archers to shoot and start the clock? Mike you say no one helped out was there any kind of notice letting NFAA members know that help was needed? Mike I understand that you are frustrated but to get on here and tell everyone you are pissed at them and you have the solution and that is the only way to go is not the way to respond. I know that the NFAA can bring in a PA system and there will not be a problem even radios as stated would help. I was on the west end of the building and could not here the sound system. Just my perception on this thread


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## reaperjb7

FV Chuck said:


> #1 - As A Vendor I object to this by the way.....
> #2 - Are we even sure the NFAA has enough bales to even add a practice range?
> #3 - If we are going to add a practice range then we need practice officials... since we pretty much maxed out the volunteers we had, who's going to work it from 6:30am to 7pm for 2 or 3 days ???... ( I could quote your sig here but you would probably think I was being a jerk) ...
> #4 - Bow Storage, and Vendors are a) good funding for NFAA, b) Vendor fees helps to pay the rent on the building...less vendors might result in higher registration fees. I certainly dont think the NFAA is in a position to start turning away people who are interested in adding to the sport.


Just to Clarify!!! I'm not saying get rid of Vendors!!! I believe all of you are VERY important and I believe that you do a lot for the sport as a big group!!!! Bag storage...VERY important!!! All I said was move it! As for more range officials needed. There are ways around that. Have you asked for more volunteers? I have never received a letter? If you shortened the time frames to say 45 mins to sit at a practice range and blow a whistle and ACTUALLY asked i bet you would see many would not have a problem helping out! COMMUNICATION!

Again. Not saying anything about the vendors or storage... Just move it to the middle for louisville. Now La Porte would still need to be against the wall. 

A practice place is very important though! We call archery a sport... What other sport do people not stretch and warm up? Take ground balls? Have a shoot around 3 hours before the BBAll game! Run drills and passing routes? It's part of sports!!! I like to shoot 45 arrows min before a competition! I shoot way better and isn't that what we want! Everyones A game! 

You all are getting offended over things that are nothing more than concerns or suggestions! Take constructive criticism and see what WE want! Isn't that why you are on these boards? As the sport evolves so must the organizations! 

Two way radios are a great idea! 50 bucks for 4 at Sams club! A tool that makes line judging not a guessing game! 

Those who are complaining... Ask yourself...What are you doing to make it better! How can you help instead of *****!
Those offended...Ask yourself...Are we doing things right? Are some of these complaints legit? Do I really need to get this offended by someone voicing their opinion? Have we looked into this? Maybe it is a good Idea! 

Stop being so Freaking Close MINDED!!!!!


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## FV Chuck

Mike -
Please.... take a breath here... I implore you....dont take a snap stand because of the crap that's posted on the internet.

I'm going to get blasted for this but cant sit and watch anymore... 

If I might just shine some light and have you all bask in it for a moment before you ride Mike's butt any further...(intentional or not)

Raise your hand if youve attended an NFAA meeting at ANY level in the last couple years
Raise our hand if you've submitted even one suggestion to your director or councilman (not in a public internet forum... I mean submitted it on paper as it should be?)
Raise your hand if you've volunteered at an NFAA National, or Sectional in the last few years
Raise your hand if youre here contributing novels to a 4 page complaint and weren't even at the event.
Raise your hand if your going on and on about this kind of thing until you get the people in charge so angry that they take it out on the rest of us. 
Raise your hand of your becoming more of the problem instead of more of the solution.
Raise your hand if youve presented your opinion in a fair, decent and productive manner in the spirit of making things better

Now think about what you've raised your hand for and ponder who you owe apologies to. 

Mike and the folks at the NFAA honestly do their best. If your typing well "no one asked us to help" thats a cop-out. It's not something "NEW" that NFAA or any other org for that matter simply never ever ever EVER has enough help. It's a fact as old as archery itself, there is never enough help... never. Period. If you care to help... ask. If you dont care to help you dont get to complain...it's like complaining about the election and not voting. It dosent work that way Martha!

Several people have stated just bring in a PA system.... any idea what that costs for a weekend in a building like that????? Who's got 10grand they don't know what to do with?.... anyone????.... right then... The announcements may have been an issue for some but I have to say it's not the majority... seems several hundred cards made it through just fine... Maybe you could ask a few more questions of the people around you instead of just making assumptions about scoring or timing...if it dosent mean enough to you to ask about whats going on, well then I guess it just didn't mean all that much to you at all to begin with.

Saftey is PARAMOUNT to the organization... and to the men and women working the line...To in anyway insinuate that the guy on the tower was soooo lackadasical that he would let his friend of 20,30, 40 or more years stand in the line of fire because they were to lazy or preoccupied should get you banished..... you should be ashamed to think it and mortified to say it out loud. Unless you've been in the tower you've no right to judge.

Simply moving the bow storage or the vendors to somewhere else... OK... where? we pretty much fill the room as it is and last I checked the people at the convention center will happily give all the room we need if we just simply pay for it.... break out the checkbook, 10 or 20 grand should get you a room then if you'd like to pay 500$ a day for bow storage, I'll ask Mike and the gang to get you the keys....you can stand at the door as a volunteer, charge a couple bucks and have people complain to you that someone put his stuff on your stuff or moved their box and they dont like it.
The extra bales we would need for practice are about 300$ a throw plus stands and shipping... how many you want???? We will need another back net...those are only a few grand...Course you'll have to get some help setting those up but no worries the volunteer line is winding out the door with people, should be easy. I dont even want to get into vendor issues....

Wow....... ok
Yeah with that I'm out.... Mike I'll apologize for the bunch, I'm terribly sorry, please reconsider your position...

By the way why is this in the Pro section?

See you guys on the line-


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## NEVADAPRO

First off, as someone that used to help set up the Vegas shoot at the Tropicana Hotel every year, it is a ton of work!! 100+ targets to set (and they were the American Round targets) and for a few years the vendors were on the tennis courts where the tournament was held. A ton of work. Volunteers were harder to find than Bigfoot himself!! So the comment that "I never got a letter" is a little ridiculous! That's like saying "I want to run for President, but no one sent me a letter asking me!!" I'm sure that if everyone is honest with themselves, they realize how much work goes into these tournaments and how many extra hands they could use to help set everything up and run the entire tournament. 

Tom, as far as warming up....it's kind of a bold statement to say that NO ONE needs to shoot to warm-up!! I know you have medical issues and that's why you don't participate in these tournaments....and so do I and many other shooters!! I've had 6 back surgeries over the last 16 years and it takes more than a few minutes pulling a rope to get me warmed up. Sometimes it takes everything I have to finish some of these tournaments!! I have shot Vegas at just about every venue it has been shot at and when I was 20, then yea, I could just walk in and shoot. But not now!! Especially for those that have to shoot a 7am line!! 

Mike, you guys do an incredible job, especially considering what you have to work with at times! How many people just come up to you guys and say "THANK YOU" for the hard work!!??!!?? Everyone is quick to complain about a single issue but not as quick to say "THANKS" for the other 99% of that weekend!! Just sayin'.... THANKS!!!!


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## ohioarcher300

FV Chuck said:


> Mike -
> Please.... take a breath here... I implore you....dont take a snap stand because of the crap that's posted on the internet.
> 
> I'm going to get blasted for this but cant sit and watch anymore...
> 
> If I might just shine some light and have you all bask in it for a moment before you ride Mike's butt any further...(intentional or not)
> 
> Raise your hand if youve attended an NFAA meeting at ANY level in the last couple years
> Raise our hand if you've submitted even one suggestion to your director or councilman (not in a public internet forum... I mean submitted it on paper as it should be?)
> Raise your hand if you've volunteered at an NFAA National, or Sectional in the last few years
> Raise your hand if youre here contributing novels to a 4 page complaint and weren't even at the event.
> Raise your hand if your going on and on about this kind of thing until you get the people in charge so angry that they take it out on the rest of us.
> Raise your hand of your becoming more of the problem instead of more of the solution.
> Raise your hand if youve presented your opinion in a fair, decent and productive manner in the spirit of making things better
> 
> Now think about what you've raised your hand for and ponder who you owe apologies to.
> 
> Mike and the folks at the NFAA honestly do their best. If your typing well "no one asked us to help" thats a cop-out. It's not something "NEW" that NFAA or any other org for that matter simply never ever ever EVER has enough help. It's a fact as old as archery itself, there is never enough help... never. Period. If you care to help... ask. If you dont care to help you dont get to complain...it's like complaining about the election and not voting. It dosent work that way Martha!
> 
> Several people have stated just bring in a PA system.... any idea what that costs for a weekend in a building like that????? Who's got 10grand they don't know what to do with?.... anyone????.... right then... The announcements may have been an issue for some but I have to say it's not the majority... seems several hundred cards made it through just fine... Maybe you could ask a few more questions of the people around you instead of just making assumptions about scoring or timing...if it dosent mean enough to you to ask about whats going on, well then I guess it just didn't mean all that much to you at all to begin with.
> 
> Saftey is PARAMOUNT to the organization... and to the men and women working the line...To in anyway insinuate that the guy on the tower was soooo lackadasical that he would let his friend of 20,30, 40 or more years stand in the line of fire because they were to lazy or preoccupied should get you banished..... you should be ashamed to think it and mortified to say it out loud. Unless you've been in the tower you've no right to judge.
> 
> Simply moving the bow storage or the vendors to somewhere else... OK... where? we pretty much fill the room as it is and last I checked the people at the convention center will happily give all the room we need if we just simply pay for it.... break out the checkbook, 10 or 20 grand should get you a room then if you'd like to pay 500$ a day for bow storage, I'll ask Mike and the gang to get you the keys....you can stand at the door as a volunteer, charge a couple bucks and have people complain to you that someone put his stuff on your stuff or moved their box and they dont like it.
> The extra bales we would need for practice are about 300$ a throw plus stands and shipping... how many you want???? We will need another back net...those are only a few grand...Course you'll have to get some help setting those up but no worries the volunteer line is winding out the door with people, should be easy. I dont even want to get into vendor issues....
> 
> Wow....... ok
> Yeah with that I'm out.... Mike I'll apologize for the bunch, I'm terribly sorry, please reconsider your position...
> 
> By the way why is this in the Pro section?
> 
> See you guys on the line-


Since this the pro section I will have to pay my 75 bucks to talk here. Will just have to see how long things can stay the same in a bad economy and gas at $3.89 a gallon. Hopefully membership and attendance doesnt go down


----------



## brtesite

NEVADAPRO said:


> First off, as someone that used to help set up the Vegas shoot at the Tropicana Hotel every year, it is a ton of work!! 100+ targets to set (and they were the American Round targets) and for a few years the vendors were on the tennis courts where the tournament was held. A ton of work. Volunteers were harder to find than Bigfoot himself!! So the comment that "I never got a letter" is a little ridiculous! That's like saying "I want to run for President, but no one sent me a letter asking me!!" I'm sure that if everyone is honest with themselves, they realize how much work goes into these tournaments and how many extra hands they could use to help set everything up and run the entire tournament.
> 
> Tom, as far as warming up....it's kind of a bold statement to say that NO ONE needs to shoot to warm-up!! I know you have medical issues and that's why you don't participate in these tournaments....and so do I and many other shooters!! I've had 6 back surgeries over the last 16 years and it takes more than a few minutes pulling a rope to get me warmed up. Sometimes it takes everything I have to finish some of these tournaments!! I have shot Vegas at just about every venue it has been shot at and when I was 20, then yea, I could just walk in and shoot. But not now!! Especially for those that have to shoot a 7am line!!
> 
> Mike, you guys do an incredible job, especially considering what you have to work with at times! How many people just come up to you guys and say "THANK YOU" for the hard work!!??!!?? Everyone is quick to complain about a single issue but not as quick to say "THANKS" for the other 99% of that weekend!! Just sayin'.... THANKS!!!!


We do the job because we want to. We don't really require thanks, but some times it does help when we do get some. I don't know about the others, But in my case , if a dozen people came up to me & said thanks, it was a lot. It really is appreciated when we do get them. i won't comment on this thread any more.


----------



## r49740

FV Chuck said:


> Mike -
> Please.... take a breath here... I implore you....dont take a snap stand because of the crap that's posted on the internet.
> 
> I'm going to get blasted for this but cant sit and watch anymore...
> 
> If I might just shine some light and have you all bask in it for a moment before you ride Mike's butt any further...(intentional or not)
> 
> Raise your hand if youve attended an NFAA meeting at ANY level in the last couple years
> Raise our hand if you've submitted even one suggestion to your director or councilman (not in a public internet forum... I mean submitted it on paper as it should be?)
> Raise your hand if you've volunteered at an NFAA National, or Sectional in the last few years
> Raise your hand if youre here contributing novels to a 4 page complaint and weren't even at the event.
> Raise your hand if your going on and on about this kind of thing until you get the people in charge so angry that they take it out on the rest of us.
> Raise your hand of your becoming more of the problem instead of more of the solution.
> Raise your hand if youve presented your opinion in a fair, decent and productive manner in the spirit of making things better
> 
> Now think about what you've raised your hand for and ponder who you owe apologies to.
> 
> Mike and the folks at the NFAA honestly do their best. If your typing well "no one asked us to help" thats a cop-out. It's not something "NEW" that NFAA or any other org for that matter simply never ever ever EVER has enough help. It's a fact as old as archery itself, there is never enough help... never. Period. If you care to help... ask. If you dont care to help you dont get to complain...it's like complaining about the election and not voting. It dosent work that way Martha!
> 
> Several people have stated just bring in a PA system.... any idea what that costs for a weekend in a building like that????? Who's got 10grand they don't know what to do with?.... anyone????.... right then... The announcements may have been an issue for some but I have to say it's not the majority... seems several hundred cards made it through just fine... Maybe you could ask a few more questions of the people around you instead of just making assumptions about scoring or timing...if it dosent mean enough to you to ask about whats going on, well then I guess it just didn't mean all that much to you at all to begin with.
> 
> Saftey is PARAMOUNT to the organization... and to the men and women working the line...To in anyway insinuate that the guy on the tower was soooo lackadasical that he would let his friend of 20,30, 40 or more years stand in the line of fire because they were to lazy or preoccupied should get you banished..... you should be ashamed to think it and mortified to say it out loud. Unless you've been in the tower you've no right to judge.
> 
> Simply moving the bow storage or the vendors to somewhere else... OK... where? we pretty much fill the room as it is and last I checked the people at the convention center will happily give all the room we need if we just simply pay for it.... break out the checkbook, 10 or 20 grand should get you a room then if you'd like to pay 500$ a day for bow storage, I'll ask Mike and the gang to get you the keys....you can stand at the door as a volunteer, charge a couple bucks and have people complain to you that someone put his stuff on your stuff or moved their box and they dont like it.
> The extra bales we would need for practice are about 300$ a throw plus stands and shipping... how many you want???? We will need another back net...those are only a few grand...Course you'll have to get some help setting those up but no worries the volunteer line is winding out the door with people, should be easy. I dont even want to get into vendor issues....
> 
> Wow....... ok
> Yeah with that I'm out.... Mike I'll apologize for the bunch, I'm terribly sorry, please reconsider your position...
> 
> By the way why is this in the Pro section?
> 
> See you guys on the line-



1. I haven't been to an NFAA meeting 
2. I have submitted ideas and suggestions.
3. I actually have to be a part of the Sectionals since I'm the treasurer for the OAA. We do all the work for it in our state, and the organization gets no money to grow, as well as being told we can't allow guests to learn the sport.
4. I don't believe anything I said was a complaint. I was at the event, as well as at Vegas, and at the event last year, and the year before. It has been inconsistent every year. Thats not a complaint. The suggestion was to just be consistent with Number of practice ends instead of trying to give as many as possible in 30 minutes. Also, the suggestion was for a 2 way radio and couple speakers.
5. Not sure if its considered on and on, but when the people in charge cant take a suggestion as a suggestion instead of complaints, and refuse to change as an effort to not give in, then on and on is what happens... thats the lack of progress.
6. People judge others by actions and results and not intentions, so maybe I am part of the problem. However, for our state organization and the current committee we have over just the last 2 years, has had our attendence for our state 300 tournament go up by 150%+. 
7. Again, not sure. I don't see how suggesting to pick a number and some radios is taken so offensively... so I guess the people that are upset should probably answer that.
8. I don't feel as though I need to apologize to anyone whether they are upset or not. I am a member, one that volunteers for our state organization of which we run 7 tournaments a year. I attend the shoots, I help run our sectionals. Doesn't make sense to apologize by making two suggestions.
9. Doesn't cost $10,000 grand to fix the sound system issue, and if that is the cost that is being considered, someone else needs to take charge of that check book. 2 way radios to communicate with the booth wouldn't cost more than a couple hundred.. at the high end. Speakers to hook up to a microphone and some extension cords... not positive but I'm sure that can be done for less that $2,000. Teh communication with the line judges and the booth was an issue, as arrows were released after being given the ok, with line judges down range. Noone said it was intentional by the booth, but it did happen. Thats why the cheap fix of 2 way radios instead of some handsignals while standing behind the line of shooters was given.

I am not calling you out, just like you probably weren't calling me out in particular. Just don't understand why easy suggestions are not even considered, but instead we are told we are whiners, moaners, complainers, and lazy for not helping. Easy changes can and should be made, or at the very least, considered without being yelled at because people are offended when mistakes were made. 

But I guess keeping it the same as it is now would be consistent.


----------



## FV Chuck

Despite your simple view these are not easy suggestions when brought in this type of forum..... they are often perceived as b**** sessions, complaints, and what-not..... if what you say is tru and I had gone online and ripped the OAA for what went on in the tourny there I bet your response would have been just like Mike's.... 

As for the sound issue.... it's never been an issue...we have been in that building for years and NEVER have we had this type backlash. Why do you need someone to hold your hand that hard???? Seriously..... you really cant ask the guy next you you?? no one near you had a clue???? I dont buy it.

As for cost... sure 2 way radios are probably pretty cheap, may it is something that they should look at but understand it's NEVER been an issue before. The system in place has worked for years, you cannot run up and blame them and say see we told you it wouldnt work....because it has. I suppose you could have probably called your state people or your director had a conversation and suggested it... heck maybe you already did. We can look for it at the next meeting. As for the cost... who knows... i just tossed a figure... but have you rented a sound system lately?...and I'm not talking about the last karaoke night at the fire hall...this is not "a couple speakers" no matter how you look at it...... I'm talking about something that would suit your needs... speakers every 75' or so...probably a thousand of feet of cords, a mixboard, line amps to carry the signal that far... the guys to set it up, the insurance rider to make sure no-one gets electrocuted, crushed by one falling off a stand, or trips over the wires, the set up time, the tear down time....probably a union gig... If it came in under 5G I'd be stunned.

See it's like this..... a NATIONAL event is not your state championship at the boys and girls club with 200 shooters. It's 3000 to 4000 people (families guests etc) moving in and out of a building with a couple tractor trailer loads of gear, volunteers, plans, contracts, and stupid huge big money expenses..... just throwing out a suggestion like your dismissing your waitress with a wave of your hand is irresponsible and poorly thought out. It tends to piss of the guys who actually sat around a table and hammered it out so you could have fun....it takes every bit of a year to get it right for the next one.

Me by the way?... I offer to volunteer, I sit on the board for my state, help run and sponsor a triple crown series of tournaments, and I've done the announcing before at nationals and vegas, and I shoot the Pro Class, and I've shot the Am classes, Ive been in there at 6:30 to prep for the early line and I've left at 10 after shooting the Pro-Am.....I get it.... I totally understand both sides here... having 4 pages of people seemingly hammering Mike and calling it the NFAA for the announcing without actually saying his name or it's his fault?... I'm surprised his computer isnt through the wall.....

Really People.... be nice, be supportive, this destructive angle wont help any.

By the way r49740... Looking at #1 through 3 you sound pretty bitter about what goes on in your org. jus' sayin
I re-read your last several posts and they are pretty straightforward... I think the issue lies with several other posts that were not as well thought out and concise


----------



## MoBuzzCut

FV Chuck said:


> Despite your simple view these are not easy suggestions when brought in this type of forum..... they are often perceived as b**** sessions, complaints, and what-not..... if what you say is tru and I had gone online and ripped the OAA for what went on in the tourny there I bet your response would have been just like Mike's....
> 
> As for the sound issue.... it's never been an issue...we have been in that building for years and NEVER have we had this type backlash. Why do you need someone to hold your hand that hard???? Seriously..... you really cant ask the guy next you you?? no one near you had a clue???? I dont buy it.
> 
> As for cost... sure 2 way radios are probably pretty cheap, may it is something that they should look at but understand it's NEVER been an issue before. The system in place has worked for years, you cannot run up and blame them and say see we told you it wouldnt work....because it has. I suppose you could have probably called your state people or your director had a conversation and suggested it... heck maybe you already did. We can look for it at the next meeting. As for the cost... who knows... i just tossed a figure... but have you rented a sound system lately?...and I'm not talking about the last karaoke night at the fire hall...this is not "a couple speakers" no matter how you look at it...... I'm talking about something that would suit your needs... speakers every 75' or so...probably a thousand of feet of cords, a mixboard, line amps to carry the signal that far... the guys to set it up, the insurance rider to make sure no-one gets electrocuted, crushed by one falling off a stand, or trips over the wires, the set up time, the tear down time....probably a union gig... If it came in under 5G I'd be stunned.
> 
> See it's like this..... a NATIONAL event is not your state championship at the boys and girls club with 200 shooters. It's 3000 to 4000 people (families guests etc) moving in and out of a building with a couple tractor trailer loads of gear, volunteers, plans, contracts, and stupid huge big money expenses..... just throwing out a suggestion like your dismissing your waitress with a wave of your hand is irresponsible and poorly thought out. It tends to piss of the guys who actually sat around a table and hammered it out so you could have fun....it takes every bit of a year to get it right for the next one.
> 
> Me by the way?... I offer to volunteer, I sit on the board for my state, help run and sponsor a triple crown series of tournaments, and I've done the announcing before at nationals and vegas, and I shoot the Pro Class, and I've shot the Am classes, Ive been in there at 6:30 to prep for the early line and I've left at 10 after shooting the Pro-Am.....I get it.... I totally understand both sides here... having 4 pages of people seemingly hammering Mike and calling it the NFAA for the announcing without actually saying his name or it's his fault?... I'm surprised his computer isnt through the wall.....
> 
> Really People.... be nice, be supportive, this destructive angle wont help any.
> 
> By the way r49740... Looking at #1 through 3 you sound pretty bitter about what goes on in your org. jus' sayin
> I re-read your last several posts and they are pretty straightforward... I think the issue lies with several other posts that were not as well thought out and concise


Well said Chuck I have to agree


----------



## MoBuzzCut

I think some might have taken my post that I was slamming Mike and that is not what it was meant to do. i understand some of the complaints, but some of the people on here are just slamming Mike and not only will they not get involved but I dont they were even there at nationals. there are things that i think that need addressed and need changed but this is not the place to do it.


----------



## ohioarcher300

I am not sure the first couple have to do with being mad at his own org. it seems the NFAA wants to keep raising the price of a membership. Yes that is help keeping the numbers down to about 200 on the state level. The State level has no say in this. The NFAA wants the state level ORG. to run the sectionals but wont give anything for helping out. This is Volunteer work for the NFAA. So since r49740 is collecting the money for the NFAA he is Volunteering his time for them.



r49740 said:


> 1. I haven't been to an NFAA meeting
> 2. I have submitted ideas and suggestions.
> 3. I actually have to be a part of the Sectionals since I'm the treasurer for the OAA. We do all the work for it in our state, and the organization gets no money to grow, as well as being told we can't allow guests to learn the sport.
> 4. I don't believe anything I said was a complaint. I was at the event, as well as at Vegas, and at the event last year, and the year before. It has been inconsistent every year. Thats not a complaint. The suggestion was to just be consistent with Number of practice ends instead of trying to give as many as possible in 30 minutes. Also, the suggestion was for a 2 way radio and couple speakers.
> 5. Not sure if its considered on and on, but when the people in charge cant take a suggestion as a suggestion instead of complaints, and refuse to change as an effort to not give in, then on and on is what happens... thats the lack of progress.
> 6. People judge others by actions and results and not intentions, so maybe I am part of the problem. However, for our state organization and the current committee we have over just the last 2 years, has had our attendence for our state 300 tournament go up by 150%+.
> 7. Again, not sure. I don't see how suggesting to pick a number and some radios is taken so offensively... so I guess the people that are upset should probably answer that.
> 8. I don't feel as though I need to apologize to anyone whether they are upset or not. I am a member, one that volunteers for our state organization of which we run 7 tournaments a year. I attend the shoots, I help run our sectionals. Doesn't make sense to apologize by making two suggestions.
> 9. Doesn't cost $10,000 grand to fix the sound system issue, and if that is the cost that is being considered, someone else needs to take charge of that check book. 2 way radios to communicate with the booth wouldn't cost more than a couple hundred.. at the high end. Speakers to hook up to a microphone and some extension cords... not positive but I'm sure that can be done for less that $2,000. Teh communication with the line judges and the booth was an issue, as arrows were released after being given the ok, with line judges down range. Noone said it was intentional by the booth, but it did happen. Thats why the cheap fix of 2 way radios instead of some handsignals while standing behind the line of shooters was given.
> 
> I am not calling you out, just like you probably weren't calling me out in particular. Just don't understand why easy suggestions are not even considered, but instead we are told we are whiners, moaners, complainers, and lazy for not helping. Easy changes can and should be made, or at the very least, considered without being yelled at because people are offended when mistakes were made.
> 
> But I guess keeping it the same as it is now would be consistent.


----------



## FV Chuck

Thanks Mo.... nicely said

Ohio...

Getting a little off topic but I'll share the little bit I know from NY.
I hate increases just as much as the next guy, but there isnt an aspect of my life that cost less tomorrow than it did today.. I'm sorry man it's a fact. I know the folks up at NFAA are not trying to find ways to pull an extra couple bucks out of a pocket to keep membership down...I dont think thats what you meant to say but thats what it reads like, I think what you meant to say was it's a challenge to pull membership money out of folks with what we have to offer and thats hurting our recruitment and our numbers....it's a challenge every single state faces every single day every single year. In NY we've gone from several thousand to a couple hundred in our state org so I feel your pain. 

The State does have a say, it's your director...he reports to the sectional... thats your voice. It's small sometimes but the voice is there. The only way to effect change is to find ways to work the system your given. If you dont like the voice or the message it carries...get a different voice. They hold elections for this very reason.

In our Sectionals the events are hosted by archery shops who do the work for a cut of the registration.....it's literally only a couple bucks but it's something. Thats where the money part comes in, they get the workers, the locations, the targets etc... Score card & money collection is the duty of the director for the most part to make sure it was all collected, mailed, transferred etc...in this day and age it really shouldn't be too complex although it is still time consumptive.....maybe Ohio is different, dont know...just saying it's how it goes here.

I dont think the NFAA ever said we dont want to have guests learn our sport.... the spirit of the rule is it's a sectional or state or national championship... if you would like to shoot alongside of those who are shooting for it, then you'll have to join. Even your local gym has a limit on "guests".... c'mon dont play twisted politics on this stuff. I have to see it on the news every night. Not here too.

Keep in mind as well that Vegas is NOT an NFAA event, it's a WAF event (World Archery Festival) they have their own rules, board, etc.... it honestly should have no bearing on Nationals...that line gets blended and blurred sometimes but it's important to remember.

PLease I encourage all of you PLEEEEEASE.... spend no less than 24 Hrs. writing a couple simple paragraphs on your observations, thoughts, questions and suggestions for the 2011 Indoor....Do it in a constructive and supportive way with logical reasoning and room for understanding if it comes back as a no..... Have a few people proof read it, just to be sure....if your really interested in making it better I personally challenge you to do it. If you dont then you really have no right to complain any further... not one word. Make sure you toss in your name and contact info if you would like to volunteer even a few min next year...I bet the folks at registration or on the line or at bow storage or in the tower would love a pee break, smoke break, someone to grab them a drink or a snack...hell bring them a bag off homemade cookies and say thanks...they are not evil monsters in zebra stripes.

going to bed on that note.
Have a good night all...

Cheers -
See you on the line.

Chuck


----------



## brtesite

ohioarcher300 said:


> I am not sure the first couple have to do with being mad at his own org. it seems the NFAA wants to keep raising the price of a membership. Yes that is help keeping the numbers down to about 200 on the state level. The State level has no say in this. The NFAA wants the state level ORG. to run the sectionals but wont give anything for helping out. This is Volunteer work for the NFAA. So since r49740 is collecting the money for the NFAA he is Volunteering his time for them.


 Ohio, The NFAA splits 50-50 with the host club or clubs. They pay for the targets,& awards & score cards. You must be a member of the NFAA to shoot sectionals, Nationals, & your required state championships. You may have all the guests you wish below the state championship level. 
i'm sure the guest issue will come up at the next meeting


----------



## r49740

FV Chuck said:


> Despite your simple view these are not easy suggestions when brought in this type of forum..... they are often perceived as b**** sessions, complaints, and what-not..... if what you say is tru and I had gone online and ripped the OAA for what went on in the tourny there I bet your response would have been just like Mike's....
> 
> As for the sound issue.... it's never been an issue...we have been in that building for years and NEVER have we had this type backlash. Why do you need someone to hold your hand that hard???? Seriously..... you really cant ask the guy next you you?? no one near you had a clue???? I dont buy it.
> 
> As for cost... sure 2 way radios are probably pretty cheap, may it is something that they should look at but understand it's NEVER been an issue before. The system in place has worked for years, you cannot run up and blame them and say see we told you it wouldnt work....because it has. I suppose you could have probably called your state people or your director had a conversation and suggested it... heck maybe you already did. We can look for it at the next meeting. As for the cost... who knows... i just tossed a figure... but have you rented a sound system lately?...and I'm not talking about the last karaoke night at the fire hall...this is not "a couple speakers" no matter how you look at it...... I'm talking about something that would suit your needs... speakers every 75' or so...probably a thousand of feet of cords, a mixboard, line amps to carry the signal that far... the guys to set it up, the insurance rider to make sure no-one gets electrocuted, crushed by one falling off a stand, or trips over the wires, the set up time, the tear down time....probably a union gig... If it came in under 5G I'd be stunned.
> 
> See it's like this..... a NATIONAL event is not your state championship at the boys and girls club with 200 shooters. It's 3000 to 4000 people (families guests etc) moving in and out of a building with a couple tractor trailer loads of gear, volunteers, plans, contracts, and stupid huge big money expenses..... just throwing out a suggestion like your dismissing your waitress with a wave of your hand is irresponsible and poorly thought out. It tends to piss of the guys who actually sat around a table and hammered it out so you could have fun....it takes every bit of a year to get it right for the next one.
> 
> Me by the way?... I offer to volunteer, I sit on the board for my state, help run and sponsor a triple crown series of tournaments, and I've done the announcing before at nationals and vegas, and I shoot the Pro Class, and I've shot the Am classes, Ive been in there at 6:30 to prep for the early line and I've left at 10 after shooting the Pro-Am.....I get it.... I totally understand both sides here... having 4 pages of people seemingly hammering Mike and calling it the NFAA for the announcing without actually saying his name or it's his fault?... I'm surprised his computer isnt through the wall.....
> 
> Really People.... be nice, be supportive, this destructive angle wont help any.
> 
> By the way r49740... Looking at #1 through 3 you sound pretty bitter about what goes on in your org. jus' sayin
> I re-read your last several posts and they are pretty straightforward... I think the issue lies with several other posts that were not as well thought out and concise


 

Actually I am not bitter at the state organization at all. In fact, I enjoy it quite a bit or else I wouldn't volunteer my time just like others are on here braggin about. The point with the NFAA sectionals, as you tried to imply that noone helps or offers help, is that I do. 

I understand our state shoot isn't as big as Nationals.. never said it was. But I do take a different route. I ask people during and after all of our events(different people each time), what they liked and what they did NOT like. I don't take answers as a bash on me. I take it to the group and when we meet, we discuss and figure out how some may work and make changes.

I never called out Mike or the NFAA,outside of saying that the boothe started the clock with line judges down range and that 2 way radios would fix that issue. I also agreed with many others on here suggesting to just pick a number for practice ends. You talked about writing up suggestions in well thought out, concise, professional way and to submit it. Or even to attend the NFAA meetings. However, when anyone on here has suggested anything, again, we are called whiners, moaners, crybabies; told we are out of line, told we should apologize, and told we are just bashing. Why would anyone want to go to a meeting with that kind of response? Doesn't seem like a good commercial to me.


----------



## r49740

FV Chuck said:


> Thanks Mo.... nicely said
> 
> Ohio...
> 
> Getting a little off topic but I'll share the little bit I know from NY.
> I hate increases just as much as the next guy, but there isnt an aspect of my life that cost less tomorrow than it did today.. I'm sorry man it's a fact. I know the folks up at NFAA are not trying to find ways to pull an extra couple bucks out of a pocket to keep membership down...I dont think thats what you meant to say but thats what it reads like, I think what you meant to say was it's a challenge to pull membership money out of folks with what we have to offer and thats hurting our recruitment and our numbers....it's a challenge every single state faces every single day every single year. In NY we've gone from several thousand to a couple hundred in our state org so I feel your pain.
> 
> The State does have a say, it's your director...he reports to the sectional... thats your voice. It's small sometimes but the voice is there. The only way to effect change is to find ways to work the system your given. If you dont like the voice or the message it carries...get a different voice. They hold elections for this very reason.
> 
> In our Sectionals the events are hosted by archery shops who do the work for a cut of the registration.....it's literally only a couple bucks but it's something. Thats where the money part comes in, they get the workers, the locations, the targets etc... Score card & money collection is the duty of the director for the most part to make sure it was all collected, mailed, transferred etc...in this day and age it really shouldn't be too complex although it is still time consumptive.....maybe Ohio is different, dont know...just saying it's how it goes here.
> 
> I dont think the NFAA ever said we dont want to have guests learn our sport.... the spirit of the rule is it's a sectional or state or national championship... if you would like to shoot alongside of those who are shooting for it, then you'll have to join. Even your local gym has a limit on "guests".... c'mon dont play twisted politics on this stuff. I have to see it on the news every night. Not here too.
> 
> Keep in mind as well that Vegas is NOT an NFAA event, it's a WAF event (World Archery Festival) they have their own rules, board, etc.... it honestly should have no bearing on Nationals...that line gets blended and blurred sometimes but it's important to remember.
> 
> PLease I encourage all of you PLEEEEEASE.... spend no less than 24 Hrs. writing a couple simple paragraphs on your observations, thoughts, questions and suggestions for the 2011 Indoor....Do it in a constructive and supportive way with logical reasoning and room for understanding if it comes back as a no..... Have a few people proof read it, just to be sure....if your really interested in making it better I personally challenge you to do it. If you dont then you really have no right to complain any further... not one word. Make sure you toss in your name and contact info if you would like to volunteer even a few min next year...I bet the folks at registration or on the line or at bow storage or in the tower would love a pee break, smoke break, someone to grab them a drink or a snack...hell bring them a bag off homemade cookies and say thanks...they are not evil monsters in zebra stripes.
> 
> going to bed on that note.
> Have a good night all...
> 
> Cheers -
> See you on the line.
> 
> Chuck




Not sure if OH is getting a different deal. Mike listed it above. The state does the work as volunteer time to allow our shooters to shoot in state as oppossed to drive somewhere else for sectionals. Clubs get 50%, NFAA get 50%. I am not saying its wrong, but you asked if we volunteer to help in any of those events, so there you go.

Guests are not allowed at our state shoot, or sectionals. That is the NFAA rule. I hope it is brought up again, as I think it would help allow people to see what its about before seeing its $60/year and not joining. I think most would enjoy it if given a chance to get a taste though, but at this point, they can't participate in the big events. Maybe something like the IBO Worlds would work where they have the IBO World Championship, but for those that didn't qualify, they do the Holiday Valley open.


----------



## ohioarcher300

We are already paying a lot. So why not just add a couple bucks so you dont need volunteers. A event this large is hard to run on volunteer help. I was told that the NFAA cant afford it, I think some restructure needs to be done. Chuck you dont have a problem trying to restructure the pro class for more money. I agree with that it does need to be done. I also think the NFAA needs a little restructure. 



FV Chuck said:


> Thanks Mo.... nicely said
> 
> Ohio...
> 
> Getting a little off topic but I'll share the little bit I know from NY.
> I hate increases just as much as the next guy, but there isnt an aspect of my life that cost less tomorrow than it did today.. I'm sorry man it's a fact. I know the folks up at NFAA are not trying to find ways to pull an extra couple bucks out of a pocket to keep membership down...I dont think thats what you meant to say but thats what it reads like, I think what you meant to say was it's a challenge to pull membership money out of folks with what we have to offer and thats hurting our recruitment and our numbers....it's a challenge every single state faces every single day every single year. In NY we've gone from several thousand to a couple hundred in our state org so I feel your pain.
> 
> The State does have a say, it's your director...he reports to the sectional... thats your voice. It's small sometimes but the voice is there. The only way to effect change is to find ways to work the system your given. If you dont like the voice or the message it carries...get a different voice. They hold elections for this very reason.
> 
> In our Sectionals the events are hosted by archery shops who do the work for a cut of the registration.....it's literally only a couple bucks but it's something. Thats where the money part comes in, they get the workers, the locations, the targets etc... Score card & money collection is the duty of the director for the most part to make sure it was all collected, mailed, transferred etc...in this day and age it really shouldn't be too complex although it is still time consumptive.....maybe Ohio is different, dont know...just saying it's how it goes here.
> 
> I dont think the NFAA ever said we dont want to have guests learn our sport.... the spirit of the rule is it's a sectional or state or national championship... if you would like to shoot alongside of those who are shooting for it, then you'll have to join. Even your local gym has a limit on "guests".... c'mon dont play twisted politics on this stuff. I have to see it on the news every night. Not here too.
> 
> Keep in mind as well that Vegas is NOT an NFAA event, it's a WAF event (World Archery Festival) they have their own rules, board, etc.... it honestly should have no bearing on Nationals...that line gets blended and blurred sometimes but it's important to remember.
> 
> PLease I encourage all of you PLEEEEEASE.... spend no less than 24 Hrs. writing a couple simple paragraphs on your observations, thoughts, questions and suggestions for the 2011 Indoor....Do it in a constructive and supportive way with logical reasoning and room for understanding if it comes back as a no..... Have a few people proof read it, just to be sure....if your really interested in making it better I personally challenge you to do it. If you dont then you really have no right to complain any further... not one word. Make sure you toss in your name and contact info if you would like to volunteer even a few min next year...I bet the folks at registration or on the line or at bow storage or in the tower would love a pee break, smoke break, someone to grab them a drink or a snack...hell bring them a bag off homemade cookies and say thanks...they are not evil monsters in zebra stripes.
> 
> going to bed on that note.
> Have a good night all...
> 
> Cheers -
> See you on the line.
> 
> Chuck


----------



## FV Chuck

ohioarcher300 said:


> We are already paying a lot. So why not just add a couple bucks so you dont need volunteers. A event this large is hard to run on volunteer help. I was told that the NFAA cant afford it, I think some restructure needs to be done. Chuck you dont have a problem trying to restructure the pro class for more money. I agree with that it does need to be done. I also think the NFAA needs a little restructure.


#1) Didnt you just have an issue with the NFAA charging a couple more bucks in a previous post?..... this seems to be contradictory to your previos stance.... can you clear it up for me? 
#2) Have you thought out the additional weekend employee thing?...really thought it out?...You already know the complexity of running and event and an Org on a state level, so just blow that up a couple hundred times and see who want to sign up to run that program. Whoah!!


----------



## FV Chuck

r49740 said:


> Not sure if OH is getting a different deal. Mike listed it above. The state does the work as volunteer time to allow our shooters to shoot in state as oppossed to drive somewhere else for sectionals. Clubs get 50%, NFAA get 50%. I am not saying its wrong, but you asked if we volunteer to help in any of those events, so there you go.
> 
> Guests are not allowed at our state shoot, or sectionals. That is the NFAA rule. I hope it is brought up again, as I think it would help allow people to see what its about before seeing its $60/year and not joining. I think most would enjoy it if given a chance to get a taste though, but at this point, they can't participate in the big events. Maybe something like the IBO Worlds would work where they have the IBO World Championship, but for those that didn't qualify, they do the Holiday Valley open.


Running a side event is plausible, shooting with the sectional or state or national shooters is not. I would not support it either. We are an organization of members not an organization of guests. Your job as a member of the NFAA if you so choose to help is foster, perpetuate and preserve "the use of the bow in accordance with its ancient and honorable traditions."...being a member grants you the privilege of shooting in the big events. If you dont have to be a member then why have the event...


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## ohioarcher300

Yes I did. There is difference when raising your prices to better things, than just raising your price to claim to maintain things. In the past 5 years the NFAA has had record attendance and a big jump in the entry fee and the membership price. 



FV Chuck said:


> #1) Didnt you just have an issue with the NFAA charging a couple more bucks in a previous post?..... this seems to be contradictory to your previos stance.... can you clear it up for me?
> #2) Have you thought out the additional weekend employee thing?...really thought it out?...You already know the complexity of running and event and an Org on a state level, so just blow that up a couple hundred times and see who want to sign up to run that program. Whoah!!


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## FV Chuck

Show me the numbers... no blanket statements please...not that I dont believe you... but show me..... if entry fees went up, registration, membership whatever ... if it went up then how much?...
If your going to bring a point of contention back it up and bring options or different methods. Tell us how it could or should be different.... c'mon I'm gonna make you work a little here.


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## ohioarcher300

In 05 it was 50 to shoot the indoor nationals and 50 for membership. It is now 60 or 65 for a membership and 85 to shoot. I believe in 05 and 06 at the end of the shoot they annc. it was record attendance. This year was the 1st year I missed since it moved to KY. Not sure what attendance was this year. 



FV Chuck said:


> Show me the numbers... no blanket statements please...not that I dont believe you... but show me..... if entry fees went up, registration, membership whatever ... if it went up then how much?...
> If your going to bring a point of contention back it up and bring options or different methods. Tell us how it could or should be different.... c'mon I'm gonna make you work a little here.


----------



## brtesite

ohioarcher300 said:


> In 05 it was 50 to shoot the indoor nationals and 50 for membership. It is now 60 or 65 for a membership and 85 to shoot. I believe in 05 and 06 at the end of the shoot they annc. it was record attendance. This year was the 1st year I missed since it moved to KY. Not sure what attendance was this year.


Ohio, NFAA membership is 35.00 What ever else you are paying is state dues.


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## ohioarcher300

Are all the state dues the same and who picks that number



brtesite said:


> Ohio, NFAA membership is 35.00 What ever else you are paying is state dues.


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## brtesite

ohioarcher300 said:


> Are all the state dues the same and who picks that number


 It is picked by the state
NJ is 10.00


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## ohioarcher300

If I am correct in 05 it was 25 NFAA which is still a 10 dollar increase


brtesite said:


> It is picked by the state
> NJ is 10.00


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## ohioarcher300

and the indoor nationals was 50 for amateur 



ohioarcher300 said:


> If I am correct in 05 it was 25 NFAA which is still a 10 dollar increase


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## brtesite

ohioarcher300 said:


> if i am correct in 05 it was 25 nfaa which is still a 10 dollar increase


and?


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## ohioarcher300

I can understand the shoot going up but why the membership.



brtesite said:


> and?


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## FV Chuck

Not having a personal look at the NFAA books nor do I have a say in the fees, rates, decisions etc...but my business background hunch would be higher expenses warrant higher membership rates. The Org survives and sustains itself on those fees... 
Couple numbers to show what I mean... Taking a look at the CPI which is the Consumer Price Index. It's the number the government arrives at for how much more everything costs than it did before.
2005 saw an increase of 3.5%, 2006 2.7%, 2007 3.9%, 2008 .2%,2009 2.6 and 2010 2.4 === if the NFAA had adjusted the rates to correspond with the cost of everything else going up around them your dues would have gone like this: 
BAse Rate 50$
2005 + CPI = $51.75
2006 + CPI = $53.14
2007 + CPI = $55.21
2008 + CPI = $55.33
2009 + CPI = $56.76
2010 + CPI = $58.13
2011 has not been fully adjusted yet but the numbers so far for the first couple months have already added 1% would have put it at $58.71in February, the forecast for the year will be close to 2.75% which would yield $59.72

I'd say it's pretty close..hard for me to find much of a complaint really...it seems like it's more or less in line with inflation....


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## ohioarcher300

At least your talking more business like now. Now they just need some paid help instead of looking for volunteers. Do the officials get paid to work lines?


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## FV Chuck

I believe officials are volunteers pretty much at all times.....I dont even think they get a free lunch or dinner out of it but I might be wrong.... maybe free registration...

As for "employees" or paid help, I doubt it will ever happen... The mountain of headache and expense would almost certainly prevent it. Our org would have to get to the point of several thousand shooters for an event to justify it. At best you might be able to get a "per-diem" type thing but from a business angle I bet there isn't an officer or lawyer on the planet that would advise it as a good idea. JMHO...


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## Hoytusa#1

Why not get a wireless system, once its paid for then you will always have it and you will not have this problem?


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## FV Chuck

What problem?


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## FV Chuck

What I'm getting at again here is ..... wireless for the line workers?... the speaker system?... what E X A C T L Y do you mean?.... what part of it did you have a problem with while you were there?....

You realize it will be gear that sits in storage 51 weeks a year right? (unless they can find a way to use it in Yankton)

Then, once you have ID'd what we are looking at... lets look at gear and get some #'s
Wireless speaker system suitable for a hall big enough to hold a couple football fields... chek
or a wireless communication system - It's gonna need multi channel and at least 16 units to cover all officials plus back ups to sit in the chargers, plus a mix board, etc...

That all...just trying to work solutions here, not 1 liners


----------



## r49740

Midland GXT1050VP4 50 Chan 30 Mile Camo H20 Waterproof Serie 
Overview - Online stores - Nearby stores - Reviews - Details - Related items 

$63 online 

9 reviews Midways GXT1050VP4 two-way, 22-channel radios are designed for GMRS (General Mobile Radio Service) operation, in a rugged, weatherproof package. With a range of up to 36 miles and Mossy Oak Breakup Camo finish, theyre ideal for your next hunting trip. Features include privacy codes, direct/group calling, NOAA weather radio/alert/scan, silent operation, whisper function, SOS siren, and plenty more. Five animal call alerts are also included. Perfect for the outdoorsman. With a range of up to 36 miles, the GXT1050VP4s are perfect for most any adventure. Click to enlarge. 
Add to Shopping List 



I just did a google search and copied the first thing that came up. Lets say that you would need 8, so you are looking at 4 sets. 4x$63= $252. Even with shipping, let's say $300 even. Then practice targets are $5 per person I think, so the first 51 people to buy a practice target at the next tournament and these are covered. Then the problem of having line judges down range while archers are given the ok would be eliminated as this would make it easier to communicate with the booth.

I know you have said that it's never been a problem before, I at least the couple years I have gone it has not been. But it was this year. This is a cheap fix.

Noone has ever gotten shot or hurt at any tournament, and they never will, until they do.

As far as the speaker system, there probably is more to it than I would think. To me just some speakers and extension cords would cut it, and probably 3 per side would be fine, at least better. However, if there is just a number of practice ends instead of a time limit, then that issue would be gone and would also be free. 

Those are just my simple solutions to the issues


----------



## FV Chuck

r49740 said:


> Midland GXT1050VP4 50 Chan 30 Mile Camo H20 Waterproof Serie
> Overview - Online stores - Nearby stores - Reviews - Details - Related items
> 
> $63 online
> 
> 9 reviews Midways GXT1050VP4 two-way, 22-channel radios are designed for GMRS (General Mobile Radio Service) operation, in a rugged, weatherproof package. With a range of up to 36 miles and Mossy Oak Breakup Camo finish, theyre ideal for your next hunting trip. Features include privacy codes, direct/group calling, NOAA weather radio/alert/scan, silent operation, whisper function, SOS siren, and plenty more. Five animal call alerts are also included. Perfect for the outdoorsman. With a range of up to 36 miles, the GXT1050VP4s are perfect for most any adventure. Click to enlarge.
> Add to Shopping List
> 
> 
> 
> I just did a google search and copied the first thing that came up. Lets say that you would need 8, so you are looking at 4 sets. 4x$63= $252. Even with shipping, let's say $300 even. Then practice targets are $5 per person I think, so the first 51 people to buy a practice target at the next tournament and these are covered. Then the problem of having line judges down range while archers are given the ok would be eliminated as this would make it easier to communicate with the booth.
> 
> I know you have said that it's never been a problem before, I at least the couple years I have gone it has not been. But it was this year. This is a cheap fix.
> 
> Noone has ever gotten shot or hurt at any tournament, and they never will, until they do.
> 
> As far as the speaker system, there probably is more to it than I would think. To me just some speakers and extension cords would cut it, and probably 3 per side would be fine, at least better. However, if there is just a number of practice ends instead of a time limit, then that issue would be gone and would also be free.
> 
> Those are just my simple solutions to the issues


....see!... thats the type of post I'm talking about. AWESOME!
Now, I have no idea if this exact solution will work or not but we should try and flesh it out a bit....this is the type of unity and solution finding that we need if we are to move forward... take an opportunity, find some solutions, work them,...massage them into a true viable fix and then present it to the directors, council, and board.

PERFECT!

Thanks, honestly man really... thanks

So... now the next phase is to find some options, try to play devils advocate and find reasons why it wouldn't work which will then lead us to better solutions...once we/you land on a final type of idea... THEN it gets written up and presented to a State director (or several all at once) so it can be presented at a meeting of the council.... it's approached from a safety standpoint in a nice constructive manner with reasoning and a budget so the NFAA can act on it.... this my friends is how the process works for every single thing we/you want changed in the system...

My .02 on the number would be more like 12 or so...this way Bruce always has one, there is one at Registration, the Tournament Director also carries one...then of course the tower people and all range/line officials with a couple spares just in case...I think it's a great idea!

Chuck


----------



## archer_nm

*NFAA Indoor Nationals issues*

Ok I have a fix to the whole problem and here are the new rules!!!!
Once you walk into the shooting area "YOU WILL NOT TALK" " YOU WILL NOT GET ANY PRACTICE" "1ST ARROW SHOT WILL BE FOR SCORE" 

Now everyone will hear any annoucements made or commands from the tower.


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## FV Chuck

Wow Bob...

Tell me this is a poke at humor and your really not as angry as you sound.


----------



## archer_nm

Now that I have your attention.... First off, get off Mike's back, all that we have tried to do is respond to what YOU have asked for (i.e. not enough practice area, wanting to practice on the target you are assigned to, ect.ect.) I am very sorry that some of you could not hear the PA but having worked there and heard the noise people make inside the hall while announcements are going on is no fault of the system, it is the inconsiderate shooters and spectators that have to carry on a conversation that is so loud that you think you are at a 60's rock concert. The tower person has to put up with all of this plus the pressure of trying to run the shooting line I can see where you might miss an official that is still on the wrong side of the line, but that is why WE ALL have a whistle and know how to use it, but since all of you are busy talking it would not do much good. When you have a shoot you will have problems and we will try to keep them to a minimum, but next year you will more as this is a fact of life.


----------



## FV Chuck

Bob- 

As a group they were off Mike's back.... I think I did a pretty good job of defending the NFAA, the volunteers, the council, the directors, the process, the PA system... there havent been anymore jabs at Mike or anyone else for that matter.

Having you come in this late all furious and full of condemnation for the shooters you serve is not really helping to calm the flames. Although I completely see and understand your side of the frustration... 

Yes, your right there is generally lots of noise in the hall, nothing new, yes there is a lot of folks not paying attention, again nothing new but for all of the years we have been there this is only one moment of an issue.... I dont think it's a pattern of the crew there and dont think there are haywagons and pitchforks outside calling for anyones head. I think this conversation has shifted away from the blame game and was now on track to find some tools that might help the people working the event. Tools to help you guys on the line and in the tower to make life a little less stressful and easier.

I'll challenge you too here Bob - if your going to comment it must be civil and respectful. I asked the people commenting to act that way towards you and the other members, it has to be a 2 way street.

Chuck


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## archer_nm

Chuck, There is no problem with the system, PA or other wise, with out candy coating the issue (I will not do that) I explained were the problem is and what needs to be fixed... Sending you an E-mail Chuck!!


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## FV Chuck

Bob - 

I pointed out that there was no problem with the PA Earlier... I personally have used it. I know it's fine - I think we've done a good job here of addressing the fact that the current PA really is ok and finding any other option is just prohibitively expensive. 

The only other issue address was trying to make communication easier amongst the workers...

I'll look for your e-mail [email protected]

CHuck


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## TNMAN

Shotgun starts are still used outdoors in many places. What's wrong with going to a pre-advertised "air horn start" for each line? Put on some muffs, BLAST for 5 seconds with a $8 disposable air horn, and make the announcement (hopefully to a temporarily hushed mob) that official scoring will now start. Probably still be someone not paying attention and won't get the word, but how much more can you do. I don't in any way mean to criticize the job that is now being done by the tournament officials, and sincerly want to thank Mike and all others who have worked for many years so that we always have good nats.


----------



## ohioarcher300

I wish I could have been there, but from what I am hearing if a line was cleared to shoot and Judges were still down range that is a problem. Accident happens these things just need to be looked at. 



archer_nm said:


> Chuck, There is no problem with the system, PA or other wise, with out candy coating the issue (I will not do that) I explained were the problem is and what needs to be fixed... Sending you an E-mail Chuck!!


----------



## r49740

ohioarcher300 said:


> I wish I could have been there, but from what I am hearing if a line was cleared to shoot and Judges were still down range that is a problem. Accident happens these things just need to be looked at.


That is correct. Noone said it was a malicious act, but it DID happen. Not sure why other helpers and volunteers seem stuck on the fact that an accident happened by the crew, and that shooters are offering a suggestion as to how a quick and easy fix may help. Thanks Chuck for at least speaking as if a consideration could be made.


----------



## field14

TNMAN said:


> Shotgun starts are still used outdoors in many places. What's wrong with going to a pre-advertised "air horn start" for each line? Put on some muffs, BLAST for 5 seconds with a $8 disposable air horn, and make the announcement (hopefully to a temporarily hushed mob) that official scoring will now start. Probably still be someone not paying attention and won't get the word, but how much more can you do. I don't in any way mean to criticize the job that is now being done by the tournament officials, and sincerly want to thank Mike and all others who have worked for many years so that we always have good nats.


I don't think an air-horn system is necessary, nor is it advisable. One of those things going off scares the living delights out of people and causes all sorts of commotion; some people may mistake it for a severe, life threatening safety issue, or even a fire buzzer or something...not wise, IMHO.

Just my opinion, but the easier and way less "noisy (and potentially harmful to those without hearing protection devices in place!), is that once you hit your shooting line area/lane assignment, the announcements are made, talking about rules, time clock, etc...and then the "TWO (or three, pick a number) OFFICIAL PRACTICE ENDS begin, with scoring starting immediately thereafter. This way, you can move the shooting line times closer together by that 1/2 hour each, and you also don't have to sweat out some lines moving faster than others and those getting more "practice" than the other lines do.
Again, the above is an offer of a SOLUTION to the problem....TWO OR THREE "official practice ends"; everyone knows it, and it will be consistent from line to line to line. That "30 minutes and then scoring begins" is too inconsistent and too hard to police and get people onto the same page. The TWO official practice ends and then scoring begins worked for YEARS and people were used to it; obviously this other "practice system" has broken down with inconsistencies prevalent.

I also agree with the SOLUTION offered up to have ALL line officials and the announcing staff equipped with two-way radios or walky-talkies to avoid the situation that occurred with the line being cleared to fire and there were still people down-range. From the previous posts, it doesn't appear that a complete, privately owned sound system is necessary, but two-way capability IS necessary.


----------



## brtesite

now the the real reason that that an official was down range when when I blew the whistle. I only look at the center line judge because I can't really see all the judges He clears the line when he get the signal from the other judges. I got the all clear, & just after the whistle blew, one of he side judges ran out to remove an arrow that was in a wrong target. I told him afterwards that the archer whose target that the errant arrow was in , had the choice to shoot Or make up the arrows at the end & not worry about that arrow.


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## FV Chuck

Cool ! - see guys, not a big deal. Well it is, I'm not sure if it's 5 pages worth of a big deal I mean....

Thanks Mike.... I actually didn't see it happen, wondered why...after ALLLL these years, probably tens of thousands of ends and it's an issue just once.... that's kind of the point I was getting at. It's not usually a problem.

Tom brings a good point... air horns might be overkill for an indoor..... I think we all just need to pay a little better attention, ask a few more questions before pulling arrows or shooting them to see if they are for score or not.

Ok really... IMHO - I think we need to be done with this.

We've got some good ideas, had some decent discussion.... before it goes the wrong way again I say move on to the next topic thats important to deal with....

(I still have no clue why it's in the Pro section anyway?)


----------



## Hoytusa#1

What I was talking about is a Wireless Pa system, you could place several speakers along each of the shooting lanes, so the shooters could here them. Plus you need either 2ways or clear signs for the referee's to hold up when they are clear. The two ways would be the best that way each referee could call in their all clear, before starting the next round. As far as my problem, it was that we had people lose scoring arrows due to not being able to hear that this was the first scoring end. Some people are just trying to help find a fix, but some people want to take offense to the suggestions and start calling names. Acting likes kids and wanting to take their ball and go home because, they do like what they are hearing, is not going to fix any of the problems.
We just need to be open minded, listen and admit that there was indeed a problem and learn from it. Then put processes in place to keep it from repeating its self again.


----------



## FV Chuck

Hoyt -

They use cards already, Mike already stated the reason for the official downrange... it was handled at the time and everyone was dealing with it. Do NOT represent it as a trend.
We've discussed the fact that the PA system does in fact work fine, announcements were heard but some in the building occasionally had trouble.
We've also discussed the prohibitive expense of trying to even go down the road of another system.
As you stated only some of the kids had problems so that must mean it was clear enough for the others and they scored it properly??... Is that true?
If you or your students did not pay close enough attention to the time frame of the practice session, the game, the shooting or the scoring then it falls on your as a coach and them as an athlete. 
MOST of the shooters in the hall, and by a LARGE MARGIN did not have a problem... some did thats true but it falls on them for the most part if the rest of the crowd got it.
This was a one time deal.... it has not been a problem before... c'mon really???? you know this to be true. 

You claim your just trying to find a fix....I wonder if there is a deeper issue here though
You may want to re-read the sticky at the top of this section regarding the rules about personal attacks.

I find a couple troubling trends in your posts. 

#1 I see you havent commented in days, once you got it stirred up enough and placed improper blame on specific people and mis-stated facts.
#2 I also see that we have this pretty much calmed down to the point where we can actually get 2 sitting councilmen to interact with us and listen to what the concern is and you come back and poke at them. Thank you, well done... great way to show respect earn their help and their favorable ear.
#3 You started an inflammatory thread specifically in the Pro Section and by what I can read, research and tell from your posts and info are not a Pro nor was this a real Pro issue.

I stand here confused


----------



## CHPro

> They use cards already,


Actually I do not believe cards or other signalling devices other than a raised hand is used. At Vegas this isn't a big deal because the distance from tower to lines is closer, more central and more importantly, higher so the tower official can easily keep tabs on all judges. Louisville not so much, especially the tower height and location, hence the need for the tower official to rely more strongly on the middle judge's all clear signal and that the judges are following their written instructions stating that the line, once signalled clear, is not to be held up by going down range except in the case of an emergency (that's what they are supposed to be wearing whistles for). If an errant arrow is missed, as Mike noted, the line judge is to instruct the archer whose target it is in that they can either proceed to shoot or can make up any arrow(s) after the round is complete.

To fix this one problem (officials down range when the signal to shoot was given) first, I would suggest continued education of the officials to not proceed downrange unless they specifically get the tower's attention and approval beforehand if an "all clear" has already been given. And secondly, I would supply the line officials with a bright orange or similarly suited brightly colored flag mounted on a 2' or 3' stick that they would raise to signal "all clear". This latter suggestion would be especially useful at Louisville where it is more difficult to observe the entire line from the tower. Our state utilizes the bright flags for our indoor event and I believe they do stand out and are much easier for the tower to monitor.

Just an fyi, I think the idea of 2-way radios is also useful. Easier to use than trying to raise another line judge or the tower official via cell phone or wildly jumping up and down and waving your hands.

Lastly, any of these ideas and suggestions should not require an agenda item and approval by the BOD. Write up the suggestion(s) and give them to a Councilman, like Mike L or Bob McCutheon, or better yet, the NFAA VP, Brian Scheffler -- these are some of the guys who can present any ideas to the rest of the Council for expenditure approval and are some of your mainstay judges and officials at both Vegas and the NFAA Indoor Nationals. You shouldn't need an agenda item to improve upon the safety of the tournament or how its run.

Respectfully submitted...........

>>-------->


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## FV Chuck

Jeff-
Thanks for piping in.... I completely respect and appreciate your wisdom, knowledge and voice of reason. 
Thank you, thank you!!!

I guess I was being a little optimistic about the cards, occasionally I see line judges using what appear to be blank score cards as "flags" of sorts so the tower can see them better.

Good news on the agenda info.... I wasnt really sure of the procedure 100% but figured it had to run up the chain somehow.... I'd like to see some action on the radio thing... I think it just makes good sense in a place that big that people can communicate faster/easier...dosent mattter if there are 100 or zero problems to cite as examples, it seems an easy and logical thing to do just to make lives easier on the people already working hard at making it go.

RS
Chuck


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## Hoytusa#1

test


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## ohioarcher300

I beleive the NAA or US Archery pays their judges to work a shoot. 



FV Chuck said:


> I believe officials are volunteers pretty much at all times.....I dont even think they get a free lunch or dinner out of it but I might be wrong.... maybe free registration...
> 
> As for "employees" or paid help, I doubt it will ever happen... The mountain of headache and expense would almost certainly prevent it. Our org would have to get to the point of several thousand shooters for an event to justify it. At best you might be able to get a "per-diem" type thing but from a business angle I bet there isn't an officer or lawyer on the planet that would advise it as a good idea. JMHO...


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## FV Chuck

ohioarcher300 said:


> I beleive the NAA or US Archery pays their judges to work a shoot.


I was referring to NFAA people.... since we dont have NAA funding, I'm guessing we wont have the big checkbook like they have to pay people anytime soon either... jus' sayin


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## ohioarcher300

Do you know how the NAA gets most of there money?


FV Chuck said:


> I was referring to NFAA people.... since we dont have NAA funding, I'm guessing we wont have the big checkbook like they have to pay people anytime soon either... jus' sayin


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## FV Chuck

Tell me..


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## target guy

Ok I don’t want to beat up on anyone but here is my .02 worth. The main difference between the NAA and the NFAA when it comes to judges is one organization has a set of judge rules to follow. The NAA for the most part follows those rules to the letter. The NFAA tends to pick up judges from where ever they can, most are either Councilmen or Directors, all of the Directors and Councilmen have many years in archery, but that does not necessarily make them good judges.
I have noticed that between shooting lines there are inconsistencies. One judge will try to do a “favor” to the shooting line and squeeze in an additional practice line. Another will blow the “to line whistle” and almost in the same breath blow the “start shooting whistle”. 
I think the tournament director for all NFAA tournaments and sponsored NFAA tournaments IE Vegas should be one person the VP of the NFAA. This person needs to write a set of judges’ guidelines and REQUIRE the judges to adhere to those guidelines. I think this would help shooters and judges alike. Shooters would have consistency between lines and judges would know what is required of them with no room for ad-libbing.


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## brtesite

chuck welcome to the beat up the guys that try to answer problems.


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## FV Chuck

ohioarcher300 said:


> Do you know how the NAA gets most of there money?


Ohio.... did you find how they get "their" funding yet?

Not being a jerk, just curious what you were able to share with the group on it. 

CHuck


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## FV Chuck

brtesite said:


> chuck welcome to the beat up the guys that try to answer problems.


Thanks Mike....
Missed the memo that said wear battle gear ... LOL


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## ohioarcher300

I just think if they have a large checkbook, we should be coping what they are doing on siome levels. I agree that there needs to be guidelines, to follow for the shoots. Both Organizations have a lot to work with. 



FV Chuck said:


> Ohio.... did you find how they get "their" funding yet?
> 
> Not being a jerk, just curious what you were able to share with the group on it.
> 
> CHuck


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## FV Chuck

ohioarcher300 said:


> I just think if they have a large checkbook, we should be coping what they are doing on siome levels. I agree that there needs to be guidelines, to follow for the shoots. Both Organizations have a lot to work with.


Limited funds might indicate that paying help might not be possible just quite yet. .... But I do like their approach of "paid, professional judges" ...it would be cool to afford that here one day.


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## lane preston

they changed 2 years ago, now you get a half hour of practice


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