# barebow aiming/form advice needed; grouping too far right



## bahboric (Aug 22, 2013)

My wife recently switched from compound to barebow, and we're having problems getting her groups to move left to the center. Her groups tend to be to the right, probably centered about 4-6" right of center. I tried tightening her plunger, and we're now at a place where a Beiter with medium spring is turned all the way in.

In the beginning a large problem was her not holding her hand to her face real tight at anchor, and things have improved a lot with a tight anchor. We've talked about string blur, and she says she now has the string blur right next to the arrow. Her 'barrel of the gun' is pretty straight, and her draw elbow is in line. But no matter what we do, the arrows group a few inches to the right.

She's shooting 3-under, and anchors with her index finger tight against her cheek bone. She doesn't seem to pay much attention to the position of any finger to help with anchoring (such as in corner of mouth or on tooth). 

She is shooting a 68" riser with 22 lb OTF at a draw length of 25.75"" (she could pull more, but we're trying to get her form settled in before using her heavier limbs). She has full-length 30 7/8" (nock groove to end of carbon) VAP 900 with 110gn pts and feathers. Bareshaft and fletched arrows seem to reliably group together at 20yds, which is all she'll shoot with these limbs. We've tried some stiffer arrows, and they did group further left, but the arrow flight was not as straight as the 900s. Stiffer arrows may be the way to go, but since the bare shafts group with the fletched and the arrows fly straight, I am thinking the problem is elsewhere.

It's a drag that the main person helping her (me) knows so little about barebow, so any advice would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks,
Ric


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## leatherback (Jun 7, 2017)

Is she right or left handed?

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## bahboric (Aug 22, 2013)

Right handed. My bad--I was trying to think of any info that might be helpful and I forgot the most important thing.


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## Elmosaurus (Sep 15, 2010)

Does she complain about her fingertips hurting after a practice session? 

A stiff hook that doesn't relax fully is a common beginner's malady, and results in deflection of the bowstring more towards bow arm. This sends the arrow back towards the other side. (towards right for right handed archer)

You mention 'tight anchor'; make sure she understands she has to relax and 'stop holding' the string, rather than try to open her fingers up to loose the arrow. (Lots of compound archers that convert over have a 'death grip' mentality from years of holding onto a mechanical release really tightly)

Cheers,
Elton


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## leatherback (Jun 7, 2017)

9 times out of 10 if the Fletched and bareshaft are grouping together then then problem is aiming "technique"

Most of the time for right handed archers the problem is that the arrow is not directly under the eye but slightly to the right leading to the arrows grouping to the LEFT.

Your partner seems to have the opposite problem.

Maybe try pulling the arrow away from the nose and anchoring more to the side of her face?

Or move the string blur closer to the riser away from the arrow.

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## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

Try moving her plunger out a bit more.


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## j.conner (Nov 12, 2009)

As above, given that impacts are to the right for a right-handed shooter (behaving weak), but the arrows are tuned with fletched hitting with bareshafts, you have a few things to check. Look for a clean release, not a pluck, and a loose grip that is not torquing the bow (use a wrist or finger sling). Ensure the string hand is close on the face, grabbing the jawbone with web of the thumb. Check the location of the string blur and try moving it to the right, aliging it to the riser instead of the space between the arrow and the riser. Finally, set centershot a bit further to the left and adjust plunger tension. I like to get a good tune with the plunger tension set at mid-range so there is room to adjust. Otherwise, having to go to extremes on plunger tension tends to indicate an incorrect spine. You could also try using the stronger spring in the Beiter. When you get tune, you can note the amount of tension (measured in Newtons) on the graph that comes with the plunger, switch springs, and adjust for the same amount of force - they are pretty precise and I have found that swap springs and set it accordingly and it actually works.

Where is centershot set to on that bow?


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## bahboric (Aug 22, 2013)

These are all good ideas; thanks very much.

We're going to shoot a bit when it warms up in a few hours, and will try these ideas.

Her centershot is set so that the arrow point is on the left side of the string (so about half the arrow is to the side of the string). I will try moving that out a bit. She also doesn't grab the jawbone with the web of the thumb; I just showed her that and she'll try it today.

She knows she is supposed to not try to open the fingers, but she may be doing it. She's never mentioned her fingers hurting (but she is shooting very low poundage). I may try to use her phone to take a slow motion video of her release, so I can see if it looks like she is trying to open her fingers. I do think she tries to force the follow-through, instead of it happening naturally, and something similar may be going on with the release. 

The string blur is more difficult, because she has a hard time explaining to me where it is at. She used to put it between the arrow and the riser, but now says she's looking right down the side of the arrow. I will ask her to try to move the string blur, but once she start's concentrating on that, lots of other stuff goes wrong (anchor, etc.); there's only so much we can think of at once. She has gotten rather frustrated with me when I ask about the string blur, and so that is something we need to work on slowly. 

Fortunately she's very excited about barebow, and I'm hoping she continues to have enough interest to work at improving. We watched the Lancaster barebow finals together, and that inspired her. She wants to go to our local club shoot tonight, to get experience of shooting under pressure.

Thanks to all


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## bahboric (Aug 22, 2013)

We just shot a few ends and moving the plunger didn't result in a huge improvement (though it may have helped some); she is still grouping to the right. Plunger is set to medium with medium spring. She tried to put the string blur on the riser, but even that didn't seem to matter much (though we need to work at consistency with string blur--a couple of times she had two small groups, one to the right and one in the correct place). I did notice that she struggles with tilting the bow to the left a bit, and also wonder if she is torquing the bow in some way. I posted on youtube a 15 sec slo-mo video of her release, bow hand, and from the back. From that video, I didn't see any problem with too tight a grip or forcibly opening the fingers (but I'm not an expert). I'm wondering if those more experienced than me see anything that might make the arrows group right.
https://youtu.be/lDu3H1Q_pVI
Thanks.


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## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

bahboric said:


> We just shot a few ends and moving the plunger didn't result in a huge improvement (though it may have helped some); she is still grouping to the right. Plunger is set to medium with medium spring. She tried to put the string blur on the riser, but even that didn't seem to matter much (though we need to work at consistency with string blur--a couple of times she had two small groups, one to the right and one in the correct place). I did notice that she struggles with tilting the bow to the left a bit, and also wonder if she is torquing the bow in some way. I posted on youtube a 15 sec slo-mo video of her release, bow hand, and from the back. From that video, I didn't see any problem with too tight a grip or forcibly opening the fingers (but I'm not an expert). I'm wondering if those more experienced than me see anything that might make the arrows group right.
> https://youtu.be/lDu3H1Q_pVI
> Thanks.


I saw 3 issues as follows...

1. She's got four fingers on the string and?..."Dragging Her Pinky"

2. "Alignment": it could have been the camera angle but it appears she's not getting her string arm elbow wrapped around back far enough leaving her string hand forearm at a slight angle just shy of "Properly Aligned". (which may explain the inconsistent post shot bow behavior where on some shots it remained vertical and on others it spun the string away)

3. It appears she's dropping her bow arm immediately upon release.

BTW?....your vid was very well done and this short list of wrongs pales in comparison too the long list of rights...IOW's?....she has a lot of potential.


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## Mr. Roboto (Jul 13, 2012)

What is that on her arm? Looks like that could be part of the problem. What ever it is under her shirt, its big.

A lot of people swear by bareshafts. Well, its true for them, but not everyone. My bare shafts are butt ugly and not even close to the fletched arrows, but my center shot is rock solid from 5 to 100 yards.


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## bahboric (Aug 22, 2013)

She got elbow tendonitis a few weeks ago, and she is wearing some sort of pad that presses on the tendon and is supposed to help. I agree that it looks really big under her shirt. But she doesn't always wear it, and she had this problem before she started wearing that (a week ago). We went to the local club shoot tonight and she didn't wear the pad, and arrows still grouped right.

Tonight she found that if she aimed at the left side of the target (at 20yds) arrows would group around the center. The centershot is set so that the side of the arrow lines up with the side of the string; i.e., the point is about half the diameter of the arrow from the side of the string. She kept the string blur on the far edge of the riser (the plunger side).

I had her work on making sure she anchored with only 3 fingers, worked hard at setting the barrel of the gun and getting in line, and not dropping the bow on release. Tomorrow I'm going to have her shoot various stiffer arrows to see if that helps. 

Fortunately she's still really excited about barebow and is determined to improve her form.


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## j.conner (Nov 12, 2009)

Looks good except for a few minor things as noted above. Centershot set at one-half to one arrow diameter (visually) is typical. Her release looks a little dead and plucky, but not tragic.

Trying stiffer arrows looks like a good idea. It looks like you have plenty of shaft left for trimming too, and that will make them stiffer, but try stiffer shafts first to confirm. Point weight is another parameter that can be adjusted. When experimenting like this, I like to test for a good result and also overcompensate to get the opposite result (go all the way to a shaft that is too stiff) so I can observe the range of the effect. The archery shop where the lessons are should have plenty of spines to try. There are multiple solutions possible for a good tune.

Another thought is to let her form settle in. Get the form solid first and fine tune later. You don't want to suck the fun out of it.

Overall, it sounds like you are on the right track. Just keep working through it!


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## Osmanthus (Dec 2, 2014)

The other day I found that when my bow is not straight up and down (I tend to cant to the right) then my arrows group to the right.
That might be one thing to pay attention to for consistency. I believe it is okay to cant, but it needs to be consistent angle to get consistent result.

It is wonderful to see another female barebow archer! Have fun!


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## bahboric (Aug 22, 2013)

Ok, we've been working on this the last couple of days, and some progress has been made--thanks for all the suggestions!

I changed some of the points from 110 to 90, which stiffened up some arrows. These did group closer to the center, and though a bit stiff, may be what we go with.

Until today she has been trying to anchor tightly to her face and the string was next to her nose. Today she kept her head more vertical, and the string was away from her face (maybe 3/8" or so). She says she now cannot even see the string blur, but I think this is just because it is so far beyond the edge of the riser. Shooting like this her arrows were centered on the target. What worries me is that when I stand behind her and try to look down the arrow at anchor, it looks as if the arrow is pointing quite a bit left of the target when she is aiming, but upon release the arrow takes off towards the right. So even though today the arrows were grouping at the center of the target, the arrow was pointed quite a bit left before release. I am wondering if this is because she has too stiff a hook (as elmosauras suggested) and is plucking the arrow, or if she is torquing the bow upon release. Anyway, since people have been so generous with advice I thought I'd give this update. 

(we've also paying special attention to bow canting, because she really likes to do that)

Thanks.


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## chrstphr (Nov 23, 2005)

bow is canted quite a bit. and her alignment, the elbow is outside of arrow line by a good bit. 











Chris


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## TER (Jul 5, 2003)

Maybe moving the string so far right that it's not even in the sight picture is causing the arrows to point left of the target and then hit centre, not because changing the points had any effect on dynamic spine, but the arrows are being pointed farther left at full draw and then still veering right due to weakness and landing in the target center. Only change one variable at a time or else you can't know which change is doing what. The string should be in the sight picture. There needs to be a good anchor with contact on the face/jaw/somewhere.


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## bahboric (Aug 22, 2013)

Chris--you're absolutely right in what you notice. The last couple of days I've stood behind her and I'd chant "tilt" as long as the bow was canted. She can't do it on her own yet, but with me behind her she can release with the bow vertical (and we still get the grouping right unless she anchors away from the face). I've tried to get her elbow more in-line, but am not sure what to tell her. I thought she wasn't that far out of line, but since a couple of people have mentioned it, it must be worth working on. (I must have low standards for what is in-line).
And TER, you're right about what is going on. The lighter points have only a small effect, and the only reason she's able now to group on center is because she's basically aiming the arrow so far left at anchor. I suppose I could have her use much stiffer arrows, but I'm convinced it must be something in her form that is the primary cause.
Thanks!


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## Elmosaurus (Sep 15, 2010)

In all honesty, Bahboric, if her 'away from the face, arrow pointed to the left' anchor style is putting the arrows in the target, I'd suggest you let that be for now. I've found there's a huge grey area in between trying to get a new barebow shooter to do things more 'textbook', versus allowing them to do some things a little bit 'wrong', but still hit the target with confidence.

Over time, her form will likely evolve, and she will learn to relax the hook more and more upon the loose of the string. As she does, the arrow impacts will start drifting left some; that is when you'll know to start having her bring the anchor back in tighter and string blur will start becoming something worth focusing on. When this begins to happen, the groups will likely begin to tighten, again, increasing her confidence and keeping her in the game with renewed interest.

Nothing ruins a beginner faster than frustration.

Cheers,
Elton


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## bahboric (Aug 22, 2013)

Problem Solved

First of all, thanks to all who responded with helpful suggestions; we tried all of them, learned a lot about barebow, and my wife is improving her form.

Her tab was a bit long, and I decided I'd try to trim it a bit to see if that might be causing arrows to veer right. While taking a close look at her fingers and tab, I noticed that she wasn't hooking the string in the first joint of the index finger, but instead had it about 1/16"-1/8" in from the first joint (towards the wrist about 1/8"). Once she started placing the string in the crease of the joint, the arrows flew straight towards the target (not veering right). I think her too-deep-a-hook was causing the string to deflect towards the bow arm, which then directed the arrows right. I should have noticed this earlier, but with her small fingers, it was easy for me to miss. Elton was right to think the problem was with her hook.

So now she no longer has to worry about the arrows veering right, and can focus on other aspects of her form. Fortunately she is still very excited about improving her barebow skills. She has a lot to learn, but now there isn't the frustration of the arrows veering right.

Thanks to all,
Ric


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## bcaarms (Nov 27, 2020)

JINKSTER said:


> I saw 3 issues as follows...
> 
> 1. She's got four fingers on the string and?..."Dragging Her Pinky"
> 
> ...


For me if I'm not shooting where I'm trying to shoot it usually one of three things:
1. Plucking. It's not her issue since she going to the right.
2. Elbow straight behind arrow. This alignment issue is easily discovered by drawing to a mirror. Don't shoot.
3. Follow through. Even though the arrow is gone, if I don't concentrate on staying in the shot, I notice it's not long before I'm dropping out of shot before the arrow is gone.

For me, warming up drawing to a mirror is worth the time. Then shooting to a hanging string at about 5 yards. Then whatever. If I just go shoot, I have alignment and follow through issues.


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## toxy2020 (Jan 24, 2021)

I spent a long time having to aim off. Check to see if the bow is upright (try a cant in the opposite direction), at the moment when they are off centre its usually a cant I didn't notice. 

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