# Is this allowed in 3D Hunter Class?



## hunt123 (Jan 17, 2009)

Reading the ASA rules, I found that sights are supposed to be "fixed pin". I'm new to 3D shooting...does that mean that single pin sliders like HHA aren't allowed?


----------



## golf assassin (Feb 19, 2009)

sliders are not allowed. they do not require you to gap pins


----------



## Mikie Day (Oct 21, 2002)

nope, cant use them


----------



## GWFH (Jan 22, 2006)

I thought you can use them.....so long as you dont adjust when on the course.
If so, you can always put a mark/dot on the up pin and give yourself another reference mark (pin).


----------



## carlosii (Feb 25, 2007)

GWFH said:


> I thought you can use them.....so long as you dont adjust when on the course.
> If so, you can always put a mark/dot on the up pin and give yourself another reference mark (pin).


My understanding is that the language involving sight adjustment only addresses allowing the adjustment of the pin sight. How do you police that?I think if I were shooting a hunter class and someone showed up with a slider sight, I'd protest it. While most shooters are honest competitors, I rely on President Reagen's statement, "Trust, but verify."


----------



## a/c guy (Nov 1, 2005)

hunt123 said:


> Reading the ASA rules, I found that sights are supposed to be "fixed pin". I'm new to 3D shooting...does that mean that single pin sliders like HHA aren't allowed?


Slider sights are usually allowed as long as they are not moved, they have to be shot as a single, nonadjustable sight. But every club/course may have their own rules, so you're better off asking at that particular event.


----------



## jace (Jul 16, 2005)

I use a slider, my arrows are "nibs", not screwins, my stabilizer is barely legal. But the way I shoot in 3d, Im not gonna get protested. Im gonna use a rangefinder at some point and see just how bad I really am at these tourneys. (and not turn my scorecard in, obviously)


----------



## cmherrmann (Jun 1, 2004)

What is the big deal about adjusting a slider sight? If guys can have a bunch of pins set at 20, 25, 30, 35, 40, 45, how is that different from me moving my single pin? I still have to guess the distance. This seems like it would keep some people from competing.

A lot of people use single pins for hunting, why don't they get in the real world and change the rules?


----------



## GWFH (Jan 22, 2006)

cmherrmann said:


> What is the big deal about adjusting a slider sight? If guys can have a bunch of pins set at 20, 25, 30, 35, 40, 45, how is that different from me moving my single pin? I still have to guess the distance. This seems like it would keep some people from competing.
> 
> A lot of people use single pins for hunting, why don't they get in the real world and change the rules?


Why dont the people using sliders just step up and shoot open class then?
Go compete with both and let us know which is easier.

Why cant people just follow rules and reg's. It's a competition, not hunting, so there has to be limits. Its pretty well accepted what types of equipment give an advantage, but yardage is the trade. If you dont want to call/shoot the extra yardage, then step down....but theres still rules.
Or, go shoot what makes you happy..... you just cant compete against others :darkbeer:


----------



## NC stringpuller (Jan 26, 2007)

cmherrmann said:


> What is the big deal about adjusting a slider sight? If guys can have a bunch of pins set at 20, 25, 30, 35, 40, 45, how is that different from me moving my single pin? I still have to guess the distance. This seems like it would keep some people from competing.
> 
> A lot of people use single pins for hunting, why don't they get in the real world and change the rules?


I can't speak for everyone else, but using a fixed multiple pin site always has that "use the wrong pin" factor a single pin doesn't. (I made that mistake myself at my only 3D shoot.):darkbeer:


----------



## NMAC (Jun 4, 2009)

The few local shoots I've shot in (ASA rules), I was told I could shoot my HHA slider in bowhunter class, but it had to be locked down, and I was allowed one adjustment during the round. I've just been shooting open class (trophy class not money with the big boys). What's ten more yards of max distance? I don't think it would be fair to allow sliders in bowhunter class. You have the ability to always put the pin on the spot. Fixed pins require gapping or aiming over/under. I just bought a four pin sight, so I can shoot bowhunter in the last shoot of the year in a few weeks. I just want to see if there is any difference in my scores. The HHA will go back on for deer season.


----------



## Perfectionist (Mar 2, 2004)

cmherrmann said:


> What is the big deal about adjusting a slider sight? If guys can have a bunch of pins set at 20, 25, 30, 35, 40, 45, *how is that different from me moving my single pin?* I still have to guess the distance. This seems like it would keep some people from competing.
> 
> A lot of people use single pins for hunting, why don't they get in the real world and change the rules?


3D targets are not set perfectly at 20, 25, 30, 35, 40, and 45 yards. Having to put the animal somewhere between 2 pins is very different from having a pin to put exactly where you want the arrow to hit.


----------



## Perfectionist (Mar 2, 2004)

jace said:


> I use a slider, my arrows are "nibs", not screwins, my stabilizer is barely legal. But the way I shoot in 3d, Im not gonna get protested. Im gonna use a rangefinder at some point and see just how bad I really am at these tourneys. (and not turn my scorecard in, obviously)


At my club, we have what we call a Fun class, where people shoot for fun, but their scores are not put in the competitive classes. Some don't even turn in a scorecard. We also let people range the targets after their group shoots the target, so that people can improve their skills.


----------



## Perfectionist (Mar 2, 2004)

NMAC said:


> The few local shoots I've shot in (ASA rules), I was told I could shoot my HHA slider in bowhunter class, but it had to be locked down, *and I was allowed one adjustment during the round. * I've just been shooting open class (trophy class not money with the big boys). What's ten more yards of max distance? I don't think it would be fair to allow sliders in bowhunter class. You have the ability to always put the pin on the spot. Fixed pins require gapping or aiming over/under. I just bought a four pin sight, so I can shoot bowhunter in the last shoot of the year in a few weeks. I just want to see if there is any difference in my scores. The HHA will go back on for deer season.


And if you are going to move the sight, you have to declare it, and all the shooters in your group need to acknowledge you are moving the pin.


----------



## BigBore56 (Mar 30, 2009)

I shoot a single fixed pin which is a .019 fiber up pin in my scope. I don't have the lens in it, and use a G5 Metapeep. 

This is allowed as long as I don't mess with the adjustments after the shoot starts. I would suggest removing your sight tape beforehand, or cover it with black tape.

With this setup, I set my pin for 30 yards...covers my 20 to 35 yd. targets; I have to hold 4" high for the 40....pretty simple...and you don't have to do a lot of "fine ranging" on the course.

I used to shoot multiple pins, but with the new speed bows, all the pins were touching. With the bright fiber optics, it just looked like a big halo of light!


----------



## kickin_buck (Apr 17, 2008)

The big thing with sliders is that you can make sight tapes for them and have every yard marked and you will be able to hold dead on your spot. Where fixed pins you will have to hold over/under your spot. There is also the multiple pin factor. If your first pin is set at 20 yards and you are shooting a target at 35 you are going to pins covering a bunch of the target, which you will not with a slider.


----------



## Bowdon (Aug 17, 2004)

I shot with a guy once who had five pins mounted on a movable sight. He had won the IBO shoot state as BHFSL and of course some one came up to them and said they seen him move it and protested it. They were going to disqualify him, so they came to me because I had shot with him. I told them if he move it I sure didn't see it. The two other guys in or group said the same thing. Your OK till you win then some one will always call you on it. I was surprised they did try to find some thing on me to because I had won second place in Open FS and we were in the same 4 man group. I had to disqualify a shooter once at a state indoor when I was the president of the state because he had won and his stabilizer was only about a 1/8 inch short of the rules. The guy that he had beat protested. If you going to shoot this stuff make sure your well with in the rule or it can come back and bit you in the butt.


----------



## PSE Kid (Nov 22, 2008)

cmherrmann said:


> What is the big deal about adjusting a slider sight? If guys can have a bunch of pins set at 20, 25, 30, 35, 40, 45, how is that different from me moving my single pin? I still have to guess the distance. This seems like it would keep some people from competing.
> 
> A lot of people use single pins for hunting, why don't they get in the real world and change the rules?


because then all of the top shooters would shoot a 12 inch stab and no lens and they could win it very easily. becasue then surloc sights would be allowed, the ones with click adjustments


----------



## hdracer (Aug 8, 2007)

cmherrmann said:


> What is the big deal about adjusting a slider sight? If guys can have a bunch of pins set at *20, 25, 30, 35, 40, 45, *how is that different from me moving my single pin? I still have to guess the distance. This seems like it would keep some people from competing.
> 
> A lot of people use single pins for hunting, why don't they get in the real world and change the rules?


In HC, AHC classes you can only have 4 pins, not as many as you want...:darkbeer:


----------



## bhtr3d (Feb 13, 2004)

Let me make this simple to understand:

IF you use a for example copper john ants... sure-loc supreme and have a pin site attachment that goes where the scope are mounted.....IT is PERFECTLY LEGAL..... you get a single gang adjustment when you have started your round.


----------



## Perfectionist (Mar 2, 2004)

bhtr3d said:


> Let me make this simple to understand:
> 
> IF you use a for example copper john ants... sure-loc supreme and have a pin site attachment that goes where the scope are mounted.....IT is PERFECTLY LEGAL..... you get a single gang adjustment when you have started your round.


Yes, but it has to be declared and the others in your group have to acknowledge. And some organizations (I think it may be the IBO) require that you contact a range official before making the change.

And yes, I have a Sureloc Challenger with the multi-pin head, and a Sword Titan with the multi-pin head as well.


----------



## psemadman (Jul 7, 2007)

Ditto BigBore56 ! I have the same set up with my 09' GX. I hava Supreme with a 42mm Black Eagle with a .019 up pin set at 30yds. Tried the multi pin set up and all pins would touch each other.


----------



## ANGEL (Jun 6, 2009)

I shoot a back slider sight. I tried making the "tapes" for it.. didnt work. I had to make my own by going out and figuring it out myself. I have my marks for 10, 20, 30, 40, and 50. Dont see how that is any different than fixed multiple pins. No, i dont mind stepping back and shooting from another peg. Just dont see why i shouldnt be allowed to shoot hunter class if i shoot the same setup i would use for hunting. I agree people need to follow the rules, but clubs also need to let the rules be known. I went to one shoot that allowed my back slider for bowhunter at one shoot, but told me the following shoot i couldnt. Is is my responsability to know what their rules are if they change them so frequently?


----------



## hunt123 (Jan 17, 2009)

Well, this is all disappointing. I just switched to an HHA and it's so much easier for my old eyes to work with. All those glowing pins were difficult. 

So I guess I've got 2 choices. Go back to my old sight and black tape off my 50 & 60 yd pins, or get something like a PSE XForce or a Monster Xtreme and lock down my HHA so the one pin works out to 40 yds. Don't have the money for that so black tape seems like it's my only option.


----------



## bhtr3d (Feb 13, 2004)

hunt123 said:


> Well, this is all disappointing. I just switched to an HHA and it's so much easier for my old eyes to work with. All those glowing pins were difficult.
> 
> So I guess I've got 2 choices. Go back to my old sight and black tape off my 50 & 60 yd pins, or get something like a PSE XForce or a Monster Xtreme and lock down my HHA so the one pin works out to 40 yds. Don't have the money for that so black tape seems like it's my only option.


one pin out to 40 yards wont be work for ya in hunter class for ASA....1) you will most likely be too fast to use one pin
2) there are a lot of guys in hunter that shoot a fair amount of 12/14 .


----------



## hunt123 (Jan 17, 2009)

bhtr3d said:


> 2) there are a lot of guys in hunter that shoot a fair amount of 12/14 .


What's 12/14? 

After I posted I remembered that rules are 280 fps, so 330+ won't work.


----------



## Mac of Michigan (Mar 26, 2009)

cmherrmann said:


> What is the big deal about adjusting a slider sight? If guys can have a bunch of pins set at 20, 25, 30, 35, 40, 45, how is that different from me moving my single pin? I still have to guess the distance. This seems like it would keep some people from competing.
> 
> A lot of people use single pins for hunting, why don't they get in the real world and change the rules?


Great point! The 3D organizations are too damn slow in adjusting rules. They have lived with their rationalized decisions for so long it is hard for them to make rapid appropriate adjustments to new technology. The IBO just started to allow Blazers in the hunting classes. Why just now? And since the bow market is being driven by speed, why does ASA limit the speed? Old habits die hard I guess!
Those guys have gotten so far away from what the average hunter wants in 3D that they are hurting the very sport they have a passion for. There is no excuse for the IBO to have taken so long to adapt to 'Blazer technology'. It is that way in those big organizations. It is too bad 'cause it drives a lot of shooters away, and discourages new shooters from competing.
The sorry part of all of this is that the administrators don't genuinely want to hear what you have to say. They keep talkin' about how numbers drop and yet when suggestions are offered they ignore them. They do not even have the common decency and courtesy to give a response. Then when confronted they reply by saying they don't have time to respond to every email, letter, or voice mail. *Translated that means you and I aren't really important to them.*
You have to have some sort of 'notoriety' to get quality communication from most of the administrators of the NFAA, IBO, or ASA. The 'average Joe' does not usually get a response.
I know those guys are busy and work hard. Bottom line though is that they need to improve - and not because they ignored me and have been flat out rude many times. They need to improve because just like me, many others are fed up with their devisive decisions and are going else where with their recreation dollars. The old sayin' is to "follow the money". In this case it will show you where the demand meets the payin' customer. 
New organizations are starting up to meet those unmet demands. US Bowhunters is one successful example. Will they pass the test of time? We'll see. If they meet the changing demands they will. The world is not like it was when the 'big 3' were born. Just look at the automotive 'big 3' and what happened to them! The American car industry screwed their customers' and Japanese vehicles have taken over because they did not respect the customers demands. I hope the current administrations of the archery 'big 3' can and will learn from the automotive industry and not make the same type of mistakes.


----------



## Perfectionist (Mar 2, 2004)

Something that people are forgetting is that 3D is a sport. It is not hunting. Yes there is a class called "Hunter" class. But this class is for the guy that only brings his bow out one month before hunting season. For the seasoned tournament shooter, there are other classes. 

Something else that needs to be said is that whenever the rules are relaxed, that just open the door for more cheating... *ahem* I mean "bending the rules". I have heard people say that they hunt with a 20" stabilizer, so that should be allowed in Hunter class. I hear people say that hunt from a treestand with a hinged backtension release. I hear people say that they hunt with their shiny chrome finish, super noisy bow. 

Well if people REALLY want to make it more like hunting,I say that the major organizations should change the rules just for Hunter class. They should put a noise sensor at the stake, and move the target so that you have to walk a half mile to get to the one and only target, and then make you sit perfectly still, soaking wet in your own sweat, for an hour. Also, they should limit what type of gear you can bring, and make you carry a 20 pound climber treestand. The target should be a moving target, that does not necessarily have all the scoring rings visible. BECAUSE THAT IS MORE LIKE HUNTING.


----------



## reylamb (Feb 5, 2003)

3D aint got one dag diddly dog thing to do with hunting, regardless of how many folks say yes it does. It is a target archery venue and competition. When was the last time anyone at a 3D went hutning for warthogs, impalas, leopards or wolves? When was the last time they hunted with field tips? I dont know about yall, but my hunting has never invloved walking through the woods in groups of 4 or 5, glass a target, judge the yardage to the critter, and then make a killing shot on it, for some reason the live critters just don't stand around that long for all that. Besides, I have never seen a single scoring ring on a live animal, and have shot more that a few animals that died when the 3D score would have been a 5.......

I doubt Tiger Woods goes to the local putt-putt to prepare for the Masters. 

I am going to go out this year with my Vantage Elite, nice Green Jade Color, Easton x-10 28" stabilizer, Copper John ANTS site with the lens, and my complete V-Bar setup and kill a deer. That way I can say, hey, that is my hunting setup change the rules for me please also.

The speed limit in the ASA is in place and was established for one reason, competitive balance. 280 can be achieved by almost everyone today with the right arrow/bow combination, regardless of DL. It keeps things fair. How do the guys with the 25 - 26" DL compete with guys with 30 - 31" DL in 3D at the IBO? Most don't. Speed is not the end all be all fix for judging yardage, but in the IBO game with center 11s tons of speed can overcome a lot of misjudgings and hold 10s.........


----------



## Mac of Michigan (Mar 26, 2009)

reylamb said:


> 3D aint got one dag diddly dog thing to do with hunting, regardless of how many folks say yes it does. It is a target archery venue and competition. When was the last time anyone at a 3D went hutning for warthogs, impalas, leopards or wolves? When was the last time they hunted with field tips? I dont know about yall, but my hunting has never invloved walking through the woods in groups of 4 or 5, glass a target, judge the yardage to the critter, and then make a killing shot on it, for some reason the live critters just don't stand around that long for all that. Besides, I have never seen a single scoring ring on a live animal, and have shot more that a few animals that died when the 3D score would have been a 5.......
> 
> I doubt Tiger Woods goes to the local putt-putt to prepare for the Masters.
> 
> ...


I disagree with this. Whether or not it helps for hunting depends on how the 3d shoot is structured. I've shot lots of 3d tournaments that helped my hunting. Not with a 30 inch stabilizer and a scope though. I do shoot open equipment sometimes and I have killed deer with a backtension hing (SP?)release from a tree stand. I also squirrel hunt with field tips and have shot and killer crows, ground hogs, *****, possums, and one skunk (never again!) with field tips.
I'm not tryin' to 'flame' this, just present a different opinion.


----------



## Mac of Michigan (Mar 26, 2009)

Perfectionist said:


> Something that people are forgetting is that 3D is a sport. It is not hunting. Yes there is a class called "Hunter" class. But this class is for the guy that only brings his bow out one month before hunting season. For the seasoned tournament shooter, there are other classes.
> 
> Something else that needs to be said is that whenever the rules are relaxed, that just open the door for more cheating... *ahem* I mean "bending the rules". I have heard people say that they hunt with a 20" stabilizer, so that should be allowed in Hunter class. I hear people say that hunt from a treestand with a hinged backtension release. I hear people say that they hunt with their shiny chrome finish, super noisy bow.
> 
> Well if people REALLY want to make it more like hunting,I say that the major organizations should change the rules just for Hunter class. They should put a noise sensor at the stake, and move the target so that you have to walk a half mile to get to the one and only target, and then make you sit perfectly still, soaking wet in your own sweat, for an hour. Also, they should limit what type of gear you can bring, and make you carry a 20 pound climber treestand. The target should be a moving target, that does not necessarily have all the scoring rings visible. BECAUSE THAT IS MORE LIKE HUNTING.


That's your opinion. I would suggest it is inaccurate. I would challenge you to shoot with some of those 'unseasoned' hunter class shooters in their class and see how you compare. Some of the guys I know that shoot there can and do on a regular basis beat some of the best shooters, and not just from the short stakes either. They in fact, are doing what the IBO was originally set up to do. And that is help bowhunters become better hunters. 
No set of rules are gonna stop people from cheating either. Cheaters find a way of doing it. And I'll say it again, I have killed deer with a hinged back tension release from a tree stand, 18 foot up! If I at any time I think a 30 inch stabilizer will help me kill deer...guess what?


----------



## Perfectionist (Mar 2, 2004)

Mac of Michigan said:


> That's your opinion. I would suggest it is inaccurate. I would challenge you to shoot with some of those 'unseasoned' hunter class shooters in their class and see how you compare. Some of the guys I know that shoot there can and do on a regular basis beat some of the best shooters, and not just from the short stakes either. *They in fact, are doing what the IBO was originally set up to do. And that is help bowhunters become better hunters.*
> No set of rules are gonna stop people from cheating either. Cheaters find a way of doing it. And I'll say it again, I have killed deer with a hinged back tension release from a tree stand, 18 foot up! If I at any time I think a 30 inch stabilizer will help me kill deer...guess what?


I would not say that my opinion is inaccurate, because your statement in bold just confirmed what I was trying to say. So either we both agree and are correct, or both agree and are both inaccurate. :darkbeer:


----------



## carlosii (Feb 25, 2007)

Mac of Michigan said:


> Great point! Those guys have gotten so far away from what the average hunter wants in 3D that they are hurting the very sport they have a passion for.
> The sorry part of all of this is that the administrators don't genuinely want to hear what you have to say. Haven't found that to be true. They keep talkin' about how numbers drop and yet when suggestions are offered they ignore them. (I think if you check, you'll see the numbers are up for both IBO and ASA this year.) They do not even have the common decency and courtesy to give a response. (Never found this to be true either. Go to either web site and pose a question/suggestion and you'll get an answer from Judy/Dee.) Then when confronted they reply by saying they don't have time to respond to every email, letter, or voice mail. *Translated that means you and I aren't really important to them.*
> You have to have some sort of 'notoriety' to get quality communication from most of the administrators of the NFAA, IBO, or ASA. The 'average Joe' does not usually get a response. (Again I have to challenge this. I'm fairly new to IBO and ASA but have never had a problem communicating with either Ken or Mike.)I know those guys are busy and work hard. Bottom line though is that they need to improve - and not because they ignored me and have been flat out rude many times. They need to improve because just like me, many others are fed up with their devisive decisions and are going else where with their recreation dollars. The old sayin' is to "follow the money". In this case it will show you where the demand meets the payin' customer.
> The American car industry screwed their customers' and Japanese vehicles have taken over because they did not respect the customers demands. I hope the current administrations of the archery 'big 3' can and will learn from the automotive industry and not make the same type of mistakes.


It seems you've had a bad experience dealing with one or the other of the national organziations. My experience has been pretty much the opposite of yours.

I really disagree as well with your analogy comparing the archery organizations to the auto industry.

I think ASA has been very responsive to the ideas put forth by the membership. As an example, ASA is working to develop an indoor "game" for archers due to requests from the membership.


----------



## hdracer (Aug 8, 2007)

From what I'm reading it seems that some want the rules changed to fit the setup they created instead of them creating a setup that meets the rules. What is wrong with shooting in the class that allows you to use your current equipment? Seems to me everyone wants to shoot Hunter Class regardless of what they shoot. If that is the case, eliminate all classes but one. Everyone shoot from the same stake, say 45 yds. May a be a little long for some and a little short for others. We would all be on the same playing field. But that wouldn't be fair in the long run, would it? Some would argue that it's too long and they can't keep up with the "open style" shooters. Others would argue that it's too short and not challenging enough. More people would drop out of the shoots and eventually the sport would die off.

Life is way too short to argue about petty things. If your equipment meets the rules, shoot the class. If it doesn't, step up to a class that your equipment does fit and shoot. Either way it's all good...:darkbeer:


----------



## orion2506 (Jul 11, 2009)

cmherrmann said:


> What is the big deal about adjusting a slider sight? If guys can have a bunch of pins set at 20, 25, 30, 35, 40, 45, how is that different from me moving my single pin? I still have to guess the distance. This seems like it would keep some people from competing.
> 
> A lot of people use single pins for hunting, why don't they get in the real world and change the rules?


actualy where i shoot. you are allowed 4 pins in hunter class. any more would be release class.


----------



## thunderbolt (Oct 11, 2002)

hunt123 said:


> Well, this is all disappointing. I just switched to an HHA and it's so much easier for my old eyes to work with. All those glowing pins were difficult.
> 
> So I guess I've got 2 choices. Go back to my old sight and black tape off my 50 & 60 yd pins, or get something like a PSE XForce or a Monster Xtreme and lock down my HHA so the one pin works out to 40 yds. Don't have the money for that so black tape seems like it's my only option.


Actually as others have stated earlier there is one other obvious choice - shoot what equipment you want and shoot in the class that allows that equipment instead of trying to change hunter class to something it wasn't intended to be....


----------



## Mac of Michigan (Mar 26, 2009)

carlosii said:


> It seems you've had a bad experience dealing with one or the other of the national organziations. My experience has been pretty much the opposite of yours.
> 
> I really disagree as well with your analogy comparing the archery organizations to the auto industry.
> 
> I think ASA has been very responsive to the ideas put forth by the membership. As an example, ASA is working to develop an indoor "game" for archers due to requests from the membership.


Don't get me wrong, I'm not gonna 'sugar coat' inconsistent performance. that doesn't mean I am ticked off - only frustrated. Answer me this then, why are so many bowhunters NOT shooting the tournaments? And why isn't adequate funding being put forth to do proper marketing research to get those numbers up? Look at other sports. They do it. 
Interesting that you have the perceptions that you do. When I spoke with them this summer at the shoots they said numbers were down. Might they be using 'creative accounting'? I don't know. I know Dee - He is a great guy, and I have met Ken. My post is not about anyones personality, rather the inconsistent communication, slowness in response, and the lack of research.
As far as the analogy I used I stand behind that. American auto makers ignored customers for so long that they switched to japanese cars in a very short time frame. If the archery guys do the same it will hurt all of archery. My guess is that switch can and will happen much quicker due to faster paced communications via the web.
You may see ASA as quick to respond, yet I do not. Nor is the IBO. And to be fair, maybe it is better that they are slow. Tell me please, was the delay to approve Blazers in hunter classes necessary? How many years did that simple change take?
So why have we had an indoor state ASA shoot for 2 years now and the national organization are only 'developing' it now? That is not quick response. Vince, our state rep, devised an Outlaw class (no speed limit) - a great move - to get the IBO guys into ASA. Why hasn't the national organization? And why isn't their more rhetoric here and at the shoots that promotes the other organizations? Just a couple of points for improvement, wouldn't you agree?
FYI I have sent emails via their web page, directly, and via my state and regional rep. Still no answers. Some of those emails are 3 years old. Would you like copies to verify?
I am glad you got responses that satisfy you. I did not.


----------



## mjgonehunting (Mar 5, 2007)

Just a thought to everyone who commented above on the rule not being fair,and want it changed.

It does very little good to whine about it here!

Write or email the IBO and ASA reps and get them to bring it up at the meetings of the ruling powers!


----------



## BarneySlayer (Feb 28, 2009)

Mac of Michigan said:


> Answer me this then, why are so many bowhunters NOT shooting the tournaments?


I wouldn't claim to know, but I would guess that a lot of hunters value the hunting more than shooting competitions, 3D or not. They're not really the same thing, even if one sort of emulates the other, and requires some similar abilities.



> Vince, our state rep, devised an Outlaw class (no speed limit) - a great move - to get the IBO guys into ASA.


I think that's a good idea. If had the strength, wingspan, and equipment to get my arrows flying faster than anybody else, I'd certainly benefit from that too. Unfortunately for me, my draw length isn't that long, and bows that would take advantage of any strength advantage aren't really common, and perhaps not even a good idea from a safety standpoint.

Though it should be recognized that whenever you remove limitations on equipment, you lessen requirements on skill to differentiate the competition. With unmarked yardage, speed is of massive advantage. It will often mean that the guy with the faster arrows beats out the guy with the superior yardage estimation. Not necessarily wrong, but if you've got a game, (and it is a game) just keep in mind why you have what rules you do.

I am glad that you're being vocal with the people who make the rules. Regardless of whether I agree with the direction (to be explicit, I don't care all that strongly), voices like yours are fuel for change. If you get enough agreement on your side, you might even help us all out :smile:


----------



## Mac of Michigan (Mar 26, 2009)

BarneySlayer said:


> I wouldn't claim to know, but I would guess that a lot of hunters value the hunting more than shooting competitions, 3D or not. They're not really the same thing, even if one sort of emulates the other, and requires some similar abilities.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I see the speed as being market driven. The reality is that most bow hunters want it because they have the perception that it gives a more efficient kill and that they have limited time to practice yardage judgement and so they actually use a range finder to hunt with. Virtually every customer of mine at Gander Mountain uses one. So why force those hunters that use range finders to do something they have clearly chosen not to. Their dollars have proven that they want to shoot and know the distance prior to the shot. With the technology we have now it seems ethical to me to promote proper hunting shots at these competitions. By todays standards it seems that most hunters value known distance. I do. NFAA offers that. 


Btw thanks for the ending comment.


----------



## jcs-bowhunter (Jul 7, 2007)

Mac of Michigan said:


> Don't get me wrong, I'm not gonna 'sugar coat' inconsistent performance. that doesn't mean I am ticked off - only frustrated. Answer me this then, why are so many bowhunters NOT shooting the tournaments?


Because it is still perceived as "target archery", no matter what you name the class or specific rules govern it. Casual shooters are not going to travel, pay enterance fees, get their butts whooped while risking their handfull of hunting arrows. I know guys that kill deer every year but have a hard time scrounging up 1/2 dozen shafts. These are not "working poor", but degreed engineers & professionals. They just juggle archery like they juggle every other personal interest. My 2 cents worth...


----------



## BigBore56 (Mar 30, 2009)

*speed sells*

Speed sells...it always has. If it didn't, everyone would be shooting recurves and longbows. It sold in the 1980's, when I got into 3D competition. Look at all the posts on the new Omen...shooters can't get them fast enough. I can honestly say that the manufacturers are doing their best to "outspeed" one another and get their share of consumers dollars. PSE wins this year!!! 

Last years bows are "slow and outdated" and sell for 1/2 of new price...a bargain for the guys on a budget! They still shoot great...just not "state of the art fast" like the newest and greatest models....and then there's bragging rights....who has the "newest and greatest" PSE or Mathews?

Speed also comes with some benefits, like Kinetic Energy. I can't believe the penetration of my X-Force at 62#, nor can the guys that have to pull my arrows at the weekly shoots! You could blow thru 2 deer-end to end-with these darts!

3D competition will always appeal to competitive people...and not always hunters. I spent the past 30 years trying to get friends/bowhunters to attend shoots...they will not...because they are not competitive, and have a fear of being made fun of or just looking stupid. You cannot force them to attend a shoot, even though you know they would be hooked if they did. They enjoy hunting and consider it a "personal" thing....3D is more social and outgoing.

So us die hard "competitors" keep attending the shoots, trying to beat the clubs "hot shot" each week. We buy the $1K bows, and $100 shafts. We are always looking for the "hottest arrow or coolest stablizer" on the market, and spend a fortune on new releases....in the quest to win the Sunday shoot...and take home the gold. We look forward to the next shoot for the entire week...live on Archery Talk when we can...and save up for the next "warp speed...(hunlee)...break the sound barrier...compound bow!

What else is there in life? Golf, tennis, bowling, trapshooting....NOT!
*3D RULES!* Just don't give me too many rules.


----------



## Mac of Michigan (Mar 26, 2009)

:teeth::icon_1_lol::icon_1_lol:


BigBore56 said:


> Speed sells...it always has. If it didn't, everyone would be shooting recurves and longbows. It sold in the 1980's, when I got into 3D competition. Look at all the posts on the new Omen...shooters can't get them fast enough. I can honestly say that the manufacturers are doing their best to "outspeed" one another and get their share of consumers dollars. PSE wins this year!!!
> 
> Last years bows are "slow and outdated" and sell for 1/2 of new price...a bargain for the guys on a budget! They still shoot great...just not "state of the art fast" like the newest and greatest models....and then there's bragging rights....who has the "newest and greatest" PSE or Mathews?
> 
> ...


:darkbeer: :icon_1_lol::lol3:

You know I used to think the same thing. And some will never shoot it. Yet at the Joe Kurek Memorial we had 105 out of 192 new 3D shooters. All of them were bow hunters. This summer our travelling 3D league grew and we had 4 of the 20 teams were all new guys. All hunters too.


----------



## djkillaz (Apr 14, 2005)

that wasnt just a tournament. It was more of benefit shoot than a tournament. Alot of the people were just hunters. But, hunters will step outside the realm for a good cause. The larg turn out had nothing to do with it being a tournament. It was to help the family out ! Which I did see a ton of people I knew and didnt know. Which was good..... went to a great cause!


----------



## Mac of Michigan (Mar 26, 2009)

djkillaz said:


> that wasnt just a tournament. It was more of benefit shoot than a tournament. Alot of the people were just hunters. But, hunters will step outside the realm for a good cause. The larg turn out had nothing to do with it being a tournament. It was to help the family out ! Which I did see a ton of people I knew and didnt know. Which was good..... went to a great cause!



That is EXACTLY the point. it was not seen as 'just another tournament' by those hunters. Many of them told me directly they did it for the family. 
The couple that drove up to Michigan from Ohio were tournament shooters who supported the cause too. So why isn't more of this being done? 
Just like those charity supporting running road races fueled growth during the running boom, a similar approach will work with archery provided the marketing is adequate. The 2 large road races that supported Special Olympics helped bring people into running that never would have given it a second thought. 
Today we have the Old Kent Riverbank Run which is on the same elite level as the Boston Marathon. It serves as the national championship for that distance and brings people from all over the world to our town each year. This race was helped by the exposure the other 2 recieved in the media. People are very receptive to helping others. All 3 races are still being held each year. The Crim race is also considered a national level event. 
My point is that the race director teams were all working in a spirit of cooperation for the greater good - to build running into a major sport. Some of you younger guys weren't around for that. I see archery as being right on the 'cusp' of the same thing right now. With the right 'push' and sustained enthusiasm it will grow and prosper.
DJ you must be familiar at least with the Riverbank Run. Vinny ran that a couple of years ago. My take is that we as archers need to get involved at this time and help that push get started.


----------



## boxer-man (Jun 25, 2009)

I've never gone to a 3d shoot,but would like to give it a try.I have one bow with a HHA ol3000 sight with a mark for 20 30 40.I'm wondering what class that puts me in.I don't want to look like a fool or make anyone angry.


----------



## djkillaz (Apr 14, 2005)

I think "we" or should I say our NEW state rep needs to come at promoting from a different angle. Any time a "HUNTER" hears the word tournament.... they are turned off from shooting..... We need to promote the Novice class more for future shooters to get them in the door as far as shooting. The ones who just want to shoot to have fun and practice all year for the upcoming hunting season. We need to push it that way more I think in Novice. I think Novice being a Trophy class was the right move. The more competative archers in novice will more likely move due to no money is offered. I remember when I first started shooting asa my first year. There were like 30-40 people in Novice and alot were moving up in other class's. With the economy the way it is. Its going to be tough.... Maybe doing something like lowering entry fee for novice of few dollars to just get peoples foot in the door. Alot of people dont want to travel all over to shoot when there's not money offered. But if you make it affordable for them and they get hooked....and they will like I did... they will spend the money too shoot. Theres actually alot we can do to get more involved. Just need to break don and do it!!! Need to make it more family orientated for sure.....


----------



## Perfectionist (Mar 2, 2004)

djkillaz said:


> I think "we" or should I say our NEW state rep needs to come at promoting from a different angle. Any time a "HUNTER" hears the word tournament.... they are turned off from shooting..... We need to promote the Novice class more for future shooters to get them in the door as far as shooting. The ones who just want to shoot to have fun and practice all year for the upcoming hunting season. We need to push it that way more I think in Novice. I think Novice being a Trophy class was the right move. The more competative archers in novice will more likely move due to no money is offered. I remember when I first started shooting asa my first year. There were like 30-40 people in Novice and alot were moving up in other class's. With the economy the way it is. Its going to be tough.... Maybe doing something like lowering entry fee for novice of few dollars to just get peoples foot in the door. Alot of people dont want to travel all over to shoot when there's not money offered. But if you make it affordable for them and they get hooked....and they will like I did... they will spend the money too shoot. Theres actually alot we can do to get more involved. Just need to break don and do it!!! Need to make it more family orientated for sure.....


True, but we (the entire archery community) also need to move the sandbaggers out of this class.


----------



## srcarlso (Mar 3, 2005)

*Sandbaggers*



Perfectionist said:


> True, but we (the entire archery community) also need to move the sandbaggers out of this class.


I fully agree...lots of sandbaggers at the various shoots. After one or two shoots with these type of guys, regular shooters get turned off.


----------



## Perfectionist (Mar 2, 2004)

At my 3D club, we make things very family oriented. We give medals to all the cubs and future bowhunters and really make a big deal about them when it comes time to give out awards.

In order to address sandbaggers, if anyone wins 2 shoots, we make that person move back a stake. Not only does this keep the same person from winning every shoot, it also provides opportunity for the average shooter to move up the ranking. For the person that has to move back a stake, it forces them to improve. But we also recognize those shooters when we give out trophies, so that everyone knows they are shooting from a farther stake. 

For the cubs and youth that move back, we hear from the parents that this is great. When it comes to the state and national shoots, they are better prepared for the competition. We even have some youth shooting from the open stakes. They love the challenge and don't get bored with the same ol' same ol'.


----------



## Mac of Michigan (Mar 26, 2009)

srcarlso said:


> I fully agree...lots of sandbaggers at the various shoots. After one or two shoots with these type of guys, regular shooters get turned off.



You guys are assuming that most bow hunters that don't shoot tournaments think the same way as you. *They DON'T!* 
I shoot IBO Senior Hunter and Hunter class and know hundreds of guys that ARE NOT sandbaggers that don't want to shoot over 35yards. They work just as hard as you at improving. They don't shoot ASA because they think it is wrong to be forced to shoot longer than 35 yards. And they resent being called sandbaggers. These guys shoot 'lights out' and can shoot longer stakes - but prefer to shoot shorter stuff. Why do you think that those shorter distance classes are always so big? 
Too many long term ASA members don't 'get it', they miss that 'connection', that a LOT of shooters are turned away from tournaments because of that. The potential 'newbies' get the idea that they _*must*_ shoot the longer stakes. You need to leave them alone and let them grow into the longer competitive classes. You need to use 'positive reinforcement' to encourage them to keep coming back AND SPENDING MONEY at the shoots. Quit 'brow beating' them into longer distance classes. Maybe even create a class they can stay in and shoot. You need to encourage them to come back and shoot again.*FELLAS IT'S ABOUT RESPECT FOR THEIR CHOICES! IT'S REAL SIMPLE.* I haven't seen enough of it at the ASA shoots. No offense, I'm just calling the way I see it.
Can you do that? Cause if you can't you'll continue to cripple 3D archery in general. You think I'm wrong? You come work a couple of weekend shifts with me at Gander Mountain, be quiet and listen, and you won't have one bit of doubt that I know what I am talking about. I have been having these conversations with customers for a long time, and getting paid for it!  
The fact that the IBO and ASA and NFAA are so backwards in their thinking is not my fault. They don't reward the 'short stake' guys; and they feel it is a waste of time encouraging them to compete. Yet the bulk of archery dollars are spent by those same guys. These 3 organizations are wrong - period. It is too bad that the administrators have become so closed minded. That thinking process is what is crippling 3D archery - and all competitive stuff. 
As an example think about most little league baseball players becoming pros. No they don't. But I would love to see the statistics for how many of them play softball - untill they are old (like me!). 
I am not attempting to flame this thread. I am passionate about seeing the sport grow. It thoroughly angers me that it was not adequately presented, in the schools, while I was growing up. I am frustrated that we as a group enjoy the sport, yet most of us do very little to help a bad situation get better.


----------



## Mac of Michigan (Mar 26, 2009)

boxer-man said:


> I've never gone to a 3d shoot,but would like to give it a try.I have one bow with a HHA ol3000 sight with a mark for 20 30 40.I'm wondering what class that puts me in.I don't want to look like a fool or make anyone angry.


My sister lives in Port Washington. Are you near there? I'll bring my bow later this month and shoot a tournament with you.


----------



## srcarlso (Mar 3, 2005)

*Appreciate Your Point But...*



Mac of Michigan said:


> You guys are assuming that most bow hunters that don't shoot tournaments think the same way as you. *They DON'T!*
> I shoot IBO Senior Hunter and Hunter class and know hundreds of guys that ARE NOT sandbaggers that don't want to shoot over 35yards. They work just as hard as you at improving. They don't shoot ASA because they think it is wrong to be forced to shoot longer than 35 yards. And they resent being called sandbaggers. These guys shoot 'lights out' and can shoot longer stakes - but prefer to shoot shorter stuff. Why do you think that those shorter distance classes are always so big?
> Too many long term ASA members don't 'get it', they miss that 'connection', that a LOT of shooters are turned away from tournaments because of that. The potential 'newbies' get the idea that they _*must*_ shoot the longer stakes. You need to leave them alone and let them grow into the longer competitive classes. You need to use 'positive reinforcement' to encourage them to keep coming back AND SPENDING MONEY at the shoots. Quit 'brow beating' them into longer distance classes. Maybe even create a class they can stay in and shoot. You need to encourage them to come back and shoot again.*FELLAS IT'S ABOUT RESPECT FOR THEIR CHOICES! IT'S REAL SIMPLE.* I haven't seen enough of it at the ASA shoots. No offense, I'm just calling the way I see it.
> Can you do that? Cause if you can't you'll continue to cripple 3D archery in general. You think I'm wrong? You come work a couple of weekend shifts with me at Gander Mountain, be quiet and listen, and you won't have one bit of doubt that I know what I am talking about. I have been having these conversations with customers for a long time, and getting paid for it!
> ...


I agree with your concepts but there are sandbaggers out there...shot with them on the ASA circuit as well (in Michigan..no names). My first year shooting the circuit I got paired with some club guys on open C which were far too good to be shooting that class...over multiple years. That was the only year I shot that class. At least with ASA groups get broken...IBO local shoots don't stress this so you do get groups that bend the rules and are liberal with shot calls. Most shooters are not sandbaggers...it is up to all of us to call them out when we see them but that doesn't happen much either.

If you want to shoot under 35 yards..great...I think that decision is commendable. If you can shoot the lights out of others at that distance, that is great as well, just tarnishes the whole skill level rankings that IBO, ASA, NFAA have in place. For those who are trying their best to get better or just learn the 3D sport, seeing very accomplished shooters in the beginner classes (open C, HC, etc) can create some bad feelings...I know, too bad...get over it.


----------



## Mac of Michigan (Mar 26, 2009)

srcarlso said:


> I agree with your concepts but there are sandbaggers out there...shot with them on the ASA circuit as well (in Michigan..no names). My first year shooting the circuit I got paired with some club guys on open C which were far too good to be shooting that class...over multiple years. That was the only year I shot that class. At least with ASA groups get broken...IBO local shoots don't stress this so you do get groups that bend the rules and are liberal with shot calls. Most shooters are not sandbaggers...it is up to all of us to call them out when we see them but that doesn't happen much either.
> 
> If you want to shoot under 35 yards..great...I think that decision is commendable. If you can shoot the lights out of others at that distance, that is great as well, just tarnishes the whole skill level rankings that IBO, ASA, NFAA have in place. For those who are trying their best to get better or just learn the 3D sport, seeing very accomplished shooters in the beginner classes (open C, HC, etc) can create some bad feelings...I know, too bad...get over it.


NFAA doesn't really have 'skill level rankings' in 3d. Everyone shoots the same stakes regardless of equipment (with the exceptions of kids and recurves). At least they did at the NFAA sectional shoot I attended. I shot 50 yards with my bowhunter set up! BTW it was a blast. I don't see any 'tarnishing' of skill levels at all, only imaginary 'tarnishing'. What you just communicated is exactly the thinking process I am trying to point out here. Are most of your kill shots on live animals at or over 35 yards?
The majority of white tail kills are at 20 yards or less. So why berate and badger the short stake guys? FYI for those guys to be competitive they have to be able to regularily hit the 11, 12, or 14 ring on turkeys at 35 yards. So give me a break. Can you do that? That is like hitting a 20 yard FITA 'super' at 35 yards on a regular basis. I don't care who the shooter is a 35 yard FITA 20 yard super hit is a tough shot, especially up or down hills. And then to do it with hunter set up makes it even more difficult. In IBO and NFAA hunter set up does not allow a lens to be used. So can you make that shot more than 50% of the time without the long stabilizer and scope? My point is a 'ten' isn't good enough for those guys. To regularily win those tournaments at those stakes you have to hit 11's and above. 
I have shot both long and short stakes. With and without open set ups. I think the short shots with hunter rigs better prepare bowhunters for their up coming seasons. I do think that the long shots are a good time. But the majority of the bow hunters are not interested in this. I see too much of the 'I'm gonna jam my thought process down your throat' syndrome used with these guys, and that just aint right! The good side though is that I sell those guys 3D targets for their back yards! And...Gander Mountain profits from it! So keep on thinkin' that way, and makin' more money for the stock holders of the businesses. And by the way, those same guys that buy the targets for their back yards take that money away from the clubs and the shoots and the organizations.


----------



## Mac of Michigan (Mar 26, 2009)

Mac of Michigan said:


> :teeth::icon_1_lol::icon_1_lol:
> 
> :darkbeer: :icon_1_lol::lol3:
> 
> You know I used to think the same thing. And some will never shoot it. Yet at the Joe Kurek Memorial we had 105 out of 192 new 3D shooters. All of them were bow hunters. This summer our travelling 3D league grew and we had 4 of the 20 teams were all new guys. All hunters too.


{Please note that I just sent this apology to BigBore56 in regards to my answer to his post a few days ago. 
"I did not want to leave you with the wrong impression on the thread. My internet quit when I had only 2 sentences completed while responding to you and quoting you. I did not mean for my post to come off as rude as it seems to be when I just re read it. Please accept my apologies for that.
Matt" 
I just read this and it reads as attacking - to me. That is not my intent in any of this.}


----------



## srcarlso (Mar 3, 2005)

*Nfaa*



Mac of Michigan said:


> NFAA doesn't really have 'skill level rankings' in 3d. Everyone shoots the same stakes regardless of equipment (with the exceptions of kids and recurves). At least they did at the NFAA sectional shoot I attended. I shot 50 yards with my bowhunter set up! BTW it was a blast. I don't see any 'tarnishing' of skill levels at all, only imaginary 'tarnishing'. What you just communicated is exactly the thinking process I am trying to point out here. Are most of your kill shots on live animals at or over 35 yards?
> The majority of white tail kills are at 20 yards or less. So why berate and badger the short stake guys? FYI for those guys to be competitive they have to be able to regularily hit the 11, 12, or 14 ring on turkeys at 35 yards. So give me a break. Can you do that? That is like hitting a 20 yard FITA 'super' at 35 yards on a regular basis. I don't care who the shooter is a 35 yard FITA 20 yard super hit is a tough shot, especially up or down hills. And then to do it with hunter set up makes it even more difficult. In IBO and NFAA hunter set up does not allow a lens to be used. So can you make that shot more than 50% of the time without the long stabilizer and scope? My point is a 'ten' isn't good enough for those guys. To regularily win those tournaments at those stakes you have to hit 11's and above.
> I have shot both long and short stakes. With and without open set ups. I think the short shots with hunter rigs better prepare bowhunters for their up coming seasons. I do think that the long shots are a good time. But the majority of the bow hunters are not interested in this. I see too much of the 'I'm gonna jam my thought process down your throat' syndrome used with these guys, and that just aint right! The good side though is that I sell those guys 3D targets for their back yards! And...Gander Mountain profits from it! So keep on thinkin' that way, and makin' more money for the stock holders of the businesses. And by the way, those same guys that buy the targets for their back yards take that money away from the clubs and the shoots and the organizations.



My reference to NFAA was for indoor...sorry. My concern is not over the bowhunter who shows up to practice on a 3D course...it is with competitive shooters who stay in lower classes when they should likely move up...that is all.


----------



## Perfectionist (Mar 2, 2004)

Mac of Michigan said:


> You guys are assuming that most bow hunters that don't shoot tournaments think the same way as you. *They DON'T!*
> I shoot IBO Senior Hunter and Hunter class and know hundreds of guys that ARE NOT sandbaggers that don't want to shoot over 35yards.


We were referring to the "Bow Novice" class in the ASA, not to be confused with the "Hunter" class.

And, I was also referring to locals shoots, not national shoots. Face it, the once-a-year guy will not travel to a national shoot, but if they are going to get started, they will go to a local shoot. But if the same people keep winning the local shoot, guess what? Those non-competitive archers and bowhunters will stop coming.


----------



## BigBore56 (Mar 30, 2009)

Mac of Michigan said:


> {Please note that I just sent this apology to BigBore56 in regards to my answer to his post a few days ago.
> "I did not want to leave you with the wrong impression on the thread. My internet quit when I had only 2 sentences completed while responding to you and quoting you. I did not mean for my post to come off as rude as it seems to be when I just re read it. Please accept my apologies for that.
> Matt"
> I just read this and it reads as attacking - to me. That is not my intent in any of this.}


Mac: I did not take it as an attack...only a statment. I would love to see more people attend the local shoots in Western Kansas...we have hundreds of bowhunters everywhere around us, but you only see the same group of guys at all the shoots. We are lucky to draw 25 shooters, unless it is a fall "hog feed" or special "spirit shoot" for cash. It's hard to justify all the preparation, setup and tear down for just a few shooters.

I set up a 10 acre 3D NFAA range in 1990, and averaged 60+ shooters at each months tournament. There were 4 similar ranges in the NW area, and all of them experienced about the same attendance...you could shoot every weekend somewhere within a 60 mile radius...it was GREAT. Shot 28 targets, total of 112 arrows, ranges of 20-60 yards.

Now, everything is IBO (40 target), range 0-40 BH, 0-50 Open, and most of the shooters are old guys like me. The ones that shot NFAA back in the 90's. Don't know what it would take to get the young guys interested? Maybe we should let them win once in a while!:devil:


----------



## Fall Gray (Jun 18, 2003)

Perfectionist said:


> We were referring to the "Bow Novice" class in the ASA, not to be confused with the "Hunter" class.
> 
> And, I was also referring to locals shoots, not national shoots. Face it, the once-a-year guy will not travel to a national shoot, but if they are going to get started, they will go to a local shoot. But if the same people keep winning the local shoot, guess what? Those non-competitive archers and bowhunters will stop coming.


I agree........ I think for the Bow Novice scores at the ASA nationals to be in the 30-40-up range is pretty ridiculous in a "novice" class. Guys posting those scores are in no way, shape, or form....."novice".

I also feel that in somewhat varies from region to region of the US. Here in the north, we simply are not able (read willing) to shoot outdoors and range targets ten to twelve months of the year. I believe this give the shooters in the southern regions of the US an advantage to be able to shoot much more. Not complaining by any means, just stating my opinion. 

I believe we shoot much more NFAA and FITA indoor stuff here in the north, and there is more 3-D shot in the south. Heck, here in MI we are hard pressed to get more than 2-3 women to shoot our ASA MI State Qualifiers, but at the ASA Nationals I am shocked to see all the women competitors! I just think 3-D is much more socially acceptable in the south, and has a much larger following. I guess from a strictly business perspective, it is no wonder the ASA focuses on the south and forgets us in the north. We can either travel, or not.......I guess??

Back to the "Joe hunter" topic……… I have friends and relatives that are hard-core hunters but have zero desire to shoot any type of 3-D. Some of their reasoning has merits, some does not. Most of what I hear is.......
- I am a hunter, not a tournament shooter.
- I don't want to go shoot with tournament guys.
- I will get laughed at.
- You guys are too good to shoot with.
- It is too much pressure.
- I am not going to shoot at lions and warthogs, I don't hunt those.
- I am not going to pay to shoot.
- You have all that fancy stuff, I don't have that.
- I am not good at judging yardage.
- I am not good enough.

The list goes on and on, but I'm sure you get my point. Bottom line, there are many perceptions about 3-D (good and bad), but you cannot FORCE anyone to come shoot it. You can only try to be a good representatives of the sport, provide good, positive information, encourage people to give it a try, and offer to help in any way you can. 

Being arrogant or aloof or "too good" to talk to, doesn't help anyone. You come off looking like and jerk and drive people away from the sport. There are going to be the "sandbaggers" in most any competitive sport of this nature. I used to shoot quite a bit of local competitive skeet, and you have guys purposely missing targets to keep their averages right where they need to be to win their class at every event. Same in 3-D....... Many people plateau at some point where the ability just will not allow them to win at the next level without considerable effort, so they do just enough to remain in the class they are comfortable in and are able to keep winning. Face it....... winning is fun, winners are popular, and really.......who doesn't like to win?? 

Enough rambling........THANKS for listening!

Mark


----------



## Mac of Michigan (Mar 26, 2009)

Perfectionist said:


> We were referring to the "Bow Novice" class in the ASA, not to be confused with the "Hunter" class.
> 
> And, I was also referring to locals shoots, not national shoots. Face it, the once-a-year guy will not travel to a national shoot, but if they are going to get started, they will go to a local shoot. But if the same people keep winning the local shoot, guess what? Those non-competitive archers and bowhunters will stop coming.


Now we are getting some where. So understanding that getting new shooters into 3d is a 'numbers game' what can be done to get more into the shoots? I agree that there are a lot of "once-a-year guys". I am not referring to them. I am referring to the hundreds of other local folks that just don't know about 3d. As for the 'once a year' crowd I've shot with dozens of them that were 'turned' into fanatics by one or two guys that 'did the work'. Nothing extravagant mind you, just consistent gentle invites over time.

What is being done on a national/international level to entice new shooters into the sport? Womens bowhunting equipment is being introduced, but what about individuals 'introducing' them to the sport. 

Why haven't clubs adopted a system that has, for instance, say 2 Genesis bows in bright colors for first time shooters to use, along with arrows. 
What about women? Talk to GVDoc about his girl friend and how he introduced her into it. She is an avid archer now. 

All I really want to see happen is for people to adopt a 'must grow the sport' mentality. Until that happens the numbers may creep up a bit, but the necessary larger jump in growth will stay unnecessarily inhibited. 

BTW I was clear that you were referring to Bow Novice. Why not create a class that shoots 30-35 yards and rewards for good performance? It can't hurt? And I think it would be well attended. I'd leave Novice as it is - for beginners. After they meet consistent clearly defined 'bump' status they go to the next 'short stake' class until THEY CHOOSE to go up. Why the need to force it? Again it is percieved as a LACK OF RESPECT by the shooters that leave the shoots after a few good times competing. 

You wanna test my theory then get the contact information off of the entry forms of the guys who shot 3 or 4 times and did not return again and ask them why they left. I did this and that is why I am taking my time to write this. Why am I doing this and the national organizations don't? They need to. You can't fix something if you don't understand what is wrong in the first place.

On a personal level each person can choose to take a small piece of their individual 24 hours a day and use it to grow the sport. Almost any effort will pay big dividends if folks would do that instead of giving the tired excuse that they "don't have time". We need to 'make the time'.


----------



## Mac of Michigan (Mar 26, 2009)

MIBIGHNTR said:


> I agree........ I think for the Bow Novice scores at the ASA nationals to be in the 30-40-up range is pretty ridiculous in a "novice" class. Guys posting those scores are in no way, shape, or form....."novice".
> 
> I also feel that in somewhat varies from region to region of the US. Here in the north, we simply are not able (read willing) to shoot outdoors and range targets ten to twelve months of the year. I believe this give the shooters in the southern regions of the US an advantage to be able to shoot much more. Not complaining by any means, just stating my opinion.
> 
> ...



_All of these would be considered 'objections' to a sales guru that needed to be overcome one at a time. It can be done - and needs to be done. A gentle push and consistent tactful invitation works wonders. Sometimes though a little shaming works too!  I try to focus on how greatful I am to Vince for pushing me into it in the early years when I encounter those objections. The other thing I am seeing this year at Gander is that our archery business has grown and a lot of the hunters that said 'no' are asking 'secondary questions' about the league I pitched them. A surprising number are asking about next year already with no prompt from me. _


----------



## Mac of Michigan (Mar 26, 2009)

*Mark let's see it brutha!*

How about a pic of that snazzy trophy you got for puttin' the smack down on the league? Kinda nice to beat the 30 inch stabilizer crowd with a bowhunter rig, eh?


----------



## Fall Gray (Jun 18, 2003)

Mac of Michigan said:


> How about a pic of that snazzy trophy you got for puttin' the smack down on the league? Kinda nice to beat the 30 inch stabilizer crowd with a bowhunter rig, eh?


Ok, Ok.......I'll bite. 










Mark


----------



## Perfectionist (Mar 2, 2004)

Mac of Michigan said:


> Now we are getting some where. So understanding that getting new shooters into 3d is a 'numbers game' what can be done to get more into the shoots? I agree that there are a lot of "once-a-year guys". I am not referring to them. I am referring to the hundreds of other local folks that just don't know about 3d. As for the 'once a year' crowd I've shot with dozens of them that were 'turned' into fanatics by one or two guys that 'did the work'. Nothing extravagant mind you, just consistent gentle invites over time.
> 
> What is being done on a national/international level to entice new shooters into the sport? Womens bowhunting equipment is being introduced, but what about individuals 'introducing' them to the sport.
> 
> ...


Well, I can't answer for anyone except myself. So here is my contribution...

Earlier this year, I (and 3 other people) bought out a failing local 3D club. In our club, we do many things to promote archery that are working very well. 
- We have a "Fun" class, where the shooters shoot from wherever they are comfortable... whether that is from the Open stake or from 5 yards. They don't compete for a trophy. This is where we put most of the people that are just starting in archery.
- We have a "Move back" rule. This is where a shooter, if they win twice in the same year, have to move back to the next longer stake. This way the same person is not winning the same class all year.
- We make it family friendly, by rewarding all Future Bowhunters and Cubs, and really make a big deal out of it.
- We have a lot of women's classes, and have little patience for chest pounding and intimidation.
- Every shoot, we have at least 4 people working all the shoots. Two people to take registrations, one to work the fully stocked concession stand, and one person floating... answering questions and addressing issues.
- For the once-a-year guys, we really encourage them to keep shooting, but stay in the fun class and don't worry about competing.
- We encourage traditional shooters, and had a traditional rendezvous.

Before we bought out the club, the average attendance was 20-30 shooters each month. Now that it is under new management, we have been averaging around 90.


----------



## Mac of Michigan (Mar 26, 2009)

Perfectionist said:


> Well, I can't answer for anyone except myself. So here is my contribution...
> 
> Earlier this year, I (and 3 other people) bought out a failing local 3D club. In our club, we do many things to promote archery that are working very well.
> - We have a "Fun" class, where the shooters shoot from wherever they are comfortable... whether that is from the Open stake or from 5 yards. They don't compete for a trophy. This is where we put most of the people that are just starting in archery.
> ...


Sounds like great work to me!


----------



## djkillaz (Apr 14, 2005)

Mac of Michigan said:


> How about a pic of that snazzy trophy you got for puttin' the smack down on the league? Kinda nice to beat the 30 inch stabilizer crowd with a bowhunter rig, eh?


Matt, let me know this time when you going to do the league again. I didnt find out about till it was about over... thanks... lol
I will be returning for 2010 season. Tookthe whole year off to take care off my buisness and spending a whole year just working on shooting form a judging yardage. Spots are coming up and tuning is complete.....


----------



## Fall Gray (Jun 18, 2003)

djkillaz said:


> Matt, let me know this time when you going to do the league again. I didnt find out about till it was about over... thanks... lol
> I will be returning for 2010 season. Tookthe whole year off to take care off my buisness and spending a whole year just working on shooting form a judging yardage. Spots are coming up and tuning is complete.....


Uh-oh Matt, somebody likey the trophies and wants to play......

Just Kidding (of course)........The bigger the better for next year!!!

Mark


----------



## hotwheels (Dec 5, 2006)

*Well Put*

I'm with you in the part of your statement

here in the GWN we have just gone to no speed limit and it is my belief that a 280 limit levels the playing field
I'm not with you in the statement about 3d not being like hunting it has givin me a better ability to judge distance at a glance no matter what the target is 
i mainly judge by looking at the ground not the animal.

with regaurds to the single pin issue i too shoot a single pin for hunting set at 30yards i can go from 0 to 40 yards by holding a little high or a little low
i don't shoot a PSE or a Monster but it still will work

I would love to shoot my Top Gun in the hunter class but i don't i shot it in FSUL

As for 3d usage in the BH classes IMO it will open the doors to guys wanting to shoot SL or CJ or CBE single pins which will leed to other issues
if your shooting hunter class shoot pins even two pins with todays speed bows will get you out to the 35 yard range if placed properly




reylamb said:


> 3D aint got one dag diddly dog thing to do with hunting, regardless of how many folks say yes it does. It is a target archery venue and competition. When was the last time anyone at a 3D went hutning for warthogs, impalas, leopards or wolves? When was the last time they hunted with field tips? I dont know about yall, but my hunting has never invloved walking through the woods in groups of 4 or 5, glass a target, judge the yardage to the critter, and then make a killing shot on it, for some reason the live critters just don't stand around that long for all that. Besides, I have never seen a single scoring ring on a live animal, and have shot more that a few animals that died when the 3D score would have been a 5.......
> 
> I doubt Tiger Woods goes to the local putt-putt to prepare for the Masters.
> 
> ...


----------



## the phoenix (Aug 13, 2009)

no moveable are not allow in hunter class. they are used in single pin class at 50 yds.


----------



## Perfectionist (Mar 2, 2004)

There is nothing stopping people from shooting one pin in Hunter class... It's easy. You get a 2 pin sight, and a set of pliers, and make it into a one pin sight. :shade:


----------



## Mac of Michigan (Mar 26, 2009)

Perfectionist said:


> There is nothing stopping people from shooting one pin in Hunter class... It's easy. You get a 2 pin sight, and a set of pliers, and make it into a one pin sight. :shade:



LOL!:darkbeer:


----------

