# **UPDATE** Need some serious help, trust my paper tune ?



## Road_Clam (Aug 24, 2021)

New archer, I have a PSE Stinger Max set to a 29" DL and 49# draw , thus far I have been REALLY struggling to obtain a good paper tune. I basically have been plagued with a substantial nock low , nock right arrow tear. I tried initially trying very small adjustments from my bow's out of the box factory tune as I figured it should be reasonably close but no progress on my paper tune. Long story short I had to make some substantial movements on both the elevation and the windage on my rest. Now when I move back and look at a nocked arrow it looks WAY out of squareness. I'm very concerned that either there's some type of major geomatry issue with my bow, or i'm doing something very wrong with my draw and shot execution ? Is it normal for a nocked arrow to look so screwed up ? Should I trust my paper tune and just stop worrying ? 

Pre tune shots with a basic initial bow setup :










after major arrow rest adjustments:


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## Mighty Mouse (Jul 16, 2019)

Since it's a single cam bow, the only means of adjusting the vertical tune are rest height and nocking point (D-loop) height. It's not uncommon for a bow to tune best with the nocking point a little higher than the rest.

Generally speaking, horizontal tune is adjusted via rest windage, cam/wheel lean, lateral cam/wheel position, or cable guard. I don't know if your particular bow has a shim-able cam/wheel or an adjustable cable guard, but I see that it has a static split yoke connected to the idler wheel axle, which can be used to adjust the lean of the idler wheel. Adding twists to the right side of the yoke and/or removing twists from the left side can be used to fix a nock right tear. You'll need a bow press to adjust yoke twists, but tuning with the yokes should allow you to move your rest back to the right (closer to centershot) and still get a good paper tear.

Below are a couple of handy charts from Gold Tip that I refer to frequently when tuning:


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## Aeolian (Sep 25, 2021)

Well ...
First you will have to fix your cable -string crossing.
This “crossing” should be below the
cable guard and not above it ,as is the
case with the bow at the pic .
Cable should not rub with string.
( BTW,the cable of your bow seems
pretty worn out due to friction with
the string ...)
Sufficient clearance is present if
the cable slide / roller glide is
installed correctly ( string at deep groove / wheel ,towards riser // cable at shallow groove towards archer ) .At your bow you have installed the cable glide the wrong way.The arrows are flying erratically for this reason ,99.99% .

I’ve myself three Stinger Max bows .
They are relatively easy to tune .
My procedure is as follows:
1) Adjust cam lean as straight as possible ( usually adding twists to right
yoke & untwist the left yoke ,for RH bow)
2 ) Center arrow rest & install the
nock point & D-loop.
3 ) Adjust vane-cable clearance.
4 ) Re -check cam lean and if meeded
re-adjust .
5 ) Measure Tiler ( on a piece of string
tied from axle to axle .Adjust if needed.
Both limps should have equal distance
from piece of string tied ATA .
6 ) Paper tune .
7) Step back tuning.
8 ) Fine tuning .


















































PS :

Replace the D97 factory string-cable set .It creeps like no other.
For my Stinger Max bows I’m
using 24 strand X-99 sets.
Quite a difference in almost every aspect.To the (much) better .


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## Road_Clam (Aug 24, 2021)

Aeolian said:


> Well ...
> First you will have to fix your cable -string crossing.
> This “crossing” should be below the
> cable guard and not above it ,as is the
> ...


Thanks a lot for taking the time to post with your reference pics . I had to replace my top axle as it kept bending . I replaced it with custom titanium . Im positive i ran the string configuration incorrectly. Ill get this corrected asap. I do have a newly purchased 60x string set that i bought just to have as a spare, sounds like it would be a good time to use it !


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## Aeolian (Sep 25, 2021)

At this part of the world ,
it’s not cheap to obtain string -cable sets. So ,I’d to learn making my own sets.AT forum provided most of the readily available knowledge needed and from there experience builds up ,
set by set made .
It’s quite ritualistic experience building your own strings and cables.


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## Road_Clam (Aug 24, 2021)

*UPDATE *Well let me just state this has been theee most aggravating experience! A few days ago I was ready to throw this bow off a cliff and take up playing chess. I've watched about 10 hours worth of bow "setup and tuning" vids and they are basically all the same as far as methods. No matter what I did for a setup I was constantly getting a nock right tear. Then last night I watched this "Tuning Myths" vid from Average Jack Archery:






Quote at 11:00 "Your grip has 99% to do with your tuning"

This vid was just an awesome eye opener that got me thinking in a different direction. Long story short, I reset my nock point to center using a bow square, I set my center shot measurement to 13/16" off the riser, and I adjusted my Yoke so as to have a plum vertical upper pulley at full draw. I went out and shot 4 arrows with my current "relaxed" grip : 









Same nock right tears.

Then I decided to try slightly pivoting my bow support wrist to the left and I got this :











The shot at 6:00 was actually me going back to my "relaxed" type grip. So CLEARLY my friggin' issue all along is simply a slight grip adjustment. There's absolutely NOTHING wrong with my bow, and in fact the basic methods setup is pretty dam good ! My adjusted grip feels a bit weird so this will take me some practice to become "muscle memory" but i'm just THRILLED that I was able to put this nock right issue to bed.


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## DPretz (Apr 30, 2021)

Road_Clam said:


> *UPDATE *Well let me just state this has been theee most aggravating experience! A few days ago I was ready to throw this bow off a cliff and take up playing chess. I've watched about 10 hours worth of bow "setup and tuning" vids and they are basically all the same as far as methods. No matter what I did for a setup I was constantly getting a nock right tear. Then last night I watched this "Tuning Myths" vid from Average Jack Archery:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Good stuff , I had a very similar experience a long time ago. Some bows have touchy (skinny) grips in my experience and are easily affected by grip torque. I had a bow that took a lot of practice just to get a consistent tear . If you had anything wrong with your grip it sure let's you know on paper.


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## 1/2 Bubble Off (Dec 29, 2016)

Road_Clam said:


> *UPDATE *Well let me just state this has been theee most aggravating experience! A few days ago I was ready to throw this bow off a cliff and take up playing chess. I've watched about 10 hours worth of bow "setup and tuning" vids and they are basically all the same as far as methods. No matter what I did for a setup I was constantly getting a nock right tear. Then last night I watched this "Tuning Myths" vid from Average Jack Archery:


I've been saying these 2 things for a long time.... 

1) 99% (I never did the math but the figure of speech seems pretty accurate in this case) of the time, when a customer comes in and tells me "I had this bow to [insert number here] pro shops and they can't get it to tune", the problem is the shooter!!!! When these bows usually come in they are way out of whack because instead to telling the customer "You need to work on YOU and/or your FORM" it seems like like one local (Elite dealer about 20 minutes away) shop chooses to make adjustments to the bow to compensate for inconsistent form. (Grip and ill fitting bows are the most common issues) I'm not complaining as this has been good for my business. Folks are seeking me out after visiting other shops and being frustrated.... 

2) Your tune is only as good as your "shot". Learning to manipulate the rest, twisting/untwisting yokes/cables is easy for a noob to learn. Recognizing inconsistencies in your form (kind of self evaluation) is a real challenge when you don't really KNOW what "right looks/feels like". This is why I don't recommend shooters learn to tune and shoot at the same time. I know there are some folks who do fine with learning both as they go.... but most folks will struggle!!!!!

@Road_Clam I applaud you for jumping in with both feet and trying to grow as a shooter. Everyone who says the best way to tune is to do it yourself is 100% correct. But, they leave out the most important part.... You need to have consistent and repeatable form to do it!!!! My above post was not an attempt to bash you and I truly hope you didn't take it that way. But this is the exact reason I cringe every time someone on the internet tells a brand NEW shooter to "buy a press and do it yourself". I know how much satisfaction there is to be gained by figuring things out yourself.... but how much less stress would you have had if you had better guidance along the way???


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## Road_Clam (Aug 24, 2021)

1/2 Bubble Off said:


> I've been saying these 2 things for a long time....
> 
> 1) 99% (I never did the math but the figure of speech seems pretty accurate in this case) of the time, when a customer comes in and tells me "I had this bow to [insert number here] pro shops and they can't get it to tune", the problem is the shooter!!!! When these bows usually come in they are way out of whack because instead to telling the customer "You need to work on YOU and/or your FORM" it seems like like one local (Elite dealer about 20 minutes away) shop chooses to make adjustments to the bow to compensate for inconsistent form. (Grip and ill fitting bows are the most common issues) I'm not complaining as this has been good for my business. Folks are seeking me out after visiting other shops and being frustrated....
> 
> ...


Thanks for the feedback, no offence take at all ! This has been a frustrating but also a good knowledge experience. I'm amazed at how substantial a "minor" grip adjustment can alter your arrow travel. So my tasks over the winter is to practice, practice , practice shooting through paper in my shed and let the paper tell me NOT that I have a tuning issue, but let the paper tell me when my shot execution is correct or not ! When I can consistiently send perfect arrow tears, then I will know I have a correct grip, anchor , draw , and let off.


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## luke308 (Nov 12, 2020)

Road_Clam said:


> Thanks a lot for taking the time to post with your reference pics . I had to replace my top axle as it kept bending . I replaced it with custom titanium . Im positive i ran the string configuration incorrectly. Ill get this corrected asap. I do have a newly purchased 60x string set that i bought just to have as a spare, sounds like it would be a good time to use it !


why did the axle keep bending,dont get that


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## Road_Clam (Aug 24, 2021)

luke308 said:


> why did the axle keep bending,dont get that


I don't get it either. My bow is only about 3 months old and I noticed the bend when it was new, I was not sure if this was normal or not. I ended up dissasembling the upper pulley, removing the axle , straightening it on a lathe , reassembled and it basically bent right back again. I custome machined a set of titanium axle pins and that's the end of it.


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## luke308 (Nov 12, 2020)

wow that is a pretty bad bend


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## luke308 (Nov 12, 2020)

how could you tell it was first bent, was it not tuning right or shooting right. that axle should not have bent like that under normal conditions pse should take notice of that


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## Road_Clam (Aug 24, 2021)

luke308 said:


> how could you tell it was first bent, was it not tuning right or shooting right. that axle should not have bent like that under normal conditions pse should take notice of that


Bow shot fine. Just looking straight on at the upper axle you could easily tell the limbs were bent downwards.


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## luke308 (Nov 12, 2020)

Road_Clam said:


> Bow shot fine. Just looking straight on at the upper axle you could easily tell the limbs were bent downwards.


thats really strange to bend an axle like that. i have all the pse stinger line bows including the max and the first one they came out with in 2009 i think it was.. i like them all, the 3g might be my favorite .i do like the max to but i wish it was a little longer ata


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## luke308 (Nov 12, 2020)

t thought those axles were really hardened steel and it would almost have to be run over by a truck to bend like that


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## Road_Clam (Aug 24, 2021)

luke308 said:


> t thought those axles were really hardened steel and it would almost have to be run over by a truck to bend like that


The axle pins are definitely not hardened. I do cnc machining and the axles are just low grade steel and i was able to bend it back very easily. Im guessing that a batch of "soft" pins found their way into bows. If yours have not bent yet im sure your fine. With my new titanium pins the limbs will snap long before the pin bends !


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## BigGameHunter7 (10 mo ago)

Never trust paper tuning


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