# The dreaded low hold bob



## va MTN MAN

I have been shooting target archery for over 35 years. I have shot decent scores but never top ten. I have always fought a low hold or bob down while aiming. I have tried multiple draw lengths and stabilizer weights fore and aft. Some things help but it is always there,I have a 31 inch draw and hybrid cam bows seem to be worse for me. Well the other day while shooting i took the front bar off just to see and viola all of a sudden no more bob just a faster float. I had the bow set up with a 30 inch stinger and only one ounce on front with a 10 inch on back with 8 ounces, this pretty much balanced the bow. after shooting without the front bar I added 8 more ounces on the rear which balanced out the same as without the front bar. This seems to be working.
Any ideas why I need so much rear weight.


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## cbrunson

My guess is that as soon as you get used to the weight difference, you will start holding low again. It happens with a lot of people. It's a mental block, or form of target panic. I'm sure there will be a few chime in contradicting that statement, but the fact is, if you can hold it anywhere on the paper, you should be able to hold it in the center of the circles.


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## va MTN MAN

cbrunson said:


> My guess is that as soon as you get used to the weight difference, you will start holding low again. It happens with a lot of people. It's a mental block, or form of target panic. I'm sure there will be a few chime in contradicting that statement, but the fact is, if you can hold it anywhere on the paper, you should be able to hold it in the center of the circles.


Thanks you may be right but I guess didn't explain it well, I dont freeze anywhere and I cant hold it steady below the bullseye either. It is more of a float issue, my pin floats up and down (mostly down) like I struggle to hold the bow up. I know its not a strength issue because it has been like this for years and I used to be very strong. I have tears in both shoulders now and my scores are higher now than ever before. In the last few years I have been trying everything (draw length, weights, timing, tiller etc) and this has gotten me back to shooting well but I think years ago I was strong enough to over power the situation. I was hoping after describingng my situation someone might have seen this in the past and shine some light on the subject.
I am pretty sure it is not a target panic issue as I went through that 30 years ago and have been shooting a hinge with back tension ever since. I shoot good shots no mater where the pin goes and accept what I get. On a 14 targpracticeise round I shoot about 272 or 273 out of 280 and 90% of those 7 or 8 misses will be low or high I very seldom miss left or right.


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## Ned250

va MTN MAN said:


> Thanks you may be right but I guess didn't explain it well, I dont freeze anywhere and I cant hold it steady below the bullseye either. It is more of a float issue, my pin floats up and down (mostly down) like I struggle to hold the bow up. I know its not a strength issue because it has been like this for years and I used to be very strong. I have tears in both shoulders now and my scores are higher now than ever before. In the last few years I have been trying everything (draw length, weights, timing, tiller etc) and this has gotten me back to shooting well but I think years ago I was strong enough to over power the situation. I was hoping after describingng my situation someone might have seen this in the past and shine some light on the subject.
> I am pretty sure it is not a target panic issue as I went through that 30 years ago and have been shooting a hinge with back tension ever since. I shoot good shots no mater where the pin goes and accept what I get. On a 14 targpracticeise round I shoot about 272 or 273 out of 280 and 90% of those 7 or 8 misses will be low or high I very seldom miss left or right.


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## va MTN MAN

Thanks
I had seen that and worked on the shoulders and they dont look or feel high but I think I will revisit it.


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## SonnyThomas

Your signature, I read it many moons ago. About as true as true can get. Bernie P; "Tuning can only be relevant if you have consistent form; and if you have consistent form, tuning then becomes irrelevant."


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## Joe Schnur

Check out griv's thing a week on shugru could be shooting a light heel on the wrist and a non stable front shoulder


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## aread

I had a similar problem. Learned to shoot on the bounce which of course led to bad things. My solution was to be stronger in my back with no relaxation at let-off. I learned to come to full draw and transfer the load to my back muscles on both sides, then set my anchor.

Unfortunately, there are 8 to 10 things that can cause the holding low problem. Any one or a combination can cause the problem.

Your results may vary,
Allen


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## Mahly

wondering what your let-off/holding weight is.


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## va MTN MAN

Mahly said:


> wondering what your let-off/holding weight is.


80% letoff holding12 lbs
But I had the same type float with my pse freak 70% holding 18 lbs


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## Strodav

Have struggled with this in the past and it creeps back every once in a while. The idea is to keep bone on bone contact on the static side. When it comes back it's because I'm not relaxing my bow hand wrist, grip is off a bit, or not getting my shoulders down.

On my PCE, I run 1 oz in front of a 33" stabilizer and 7 oz on the rear 12" sidebar. The way I set it is to see where the bow goes as the release fires. Right now it moves slightly right then left, but level, no up and down at all.


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## Padgett

I used to drop out the bottom some on indoor and 3d but I have made many changes and no longer have this issue:

1. I got 40 ounces of stabilizer weights and layed them out on my 3d stool and started trying combinations until I found the combination that gave me the best float without drop outs.

2. I am a asa low back 12 guy, so I drew asa scoring rings on cardboard and this is what I shoot at when at home. I refuse to shoot at dots, this has allowed me hundreds of hours shooting at a 12 ring dead on without shooting out the bottom because that results in a 8 and I don't like them.

3. My firing engines, I teach a few engines to the guys who ask me for help and I have learned over the years that all firing engines have a personality of their own which includes float pattern glitches. Some of those glitches include dropping out the bottom suddenly, other firing engines are very smooth and consistent from day to day without glitches and those are the ones that I shoot with.

4. Low grip, I have really come to love the positive qualities of a low grip. There are many but probably one of the biggest is the lack of my shot wanting to drop out the bottom compared to a high grip or mid grip.

These are the things that I have worked on in the last year or so that have made a difference in my shots going off day in and day out without glitches such as drop outs.


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## cbrunson

va MTN MAN said:


> I know its not a strength issue because it has been like this for years and I used to be very strong. I have tears in both shoulders now and my scores are higher now than ever before. In the last few years I have been trying everything (draw length, weights, timing, tiller etc) and this has gotten me back to shooting well but I think years ago I was strong enough to over power the situation. I was hoping after describingng my situation someone might have seen this in the past and shine some light on the subject. I am pretty sure it is not a target panic issue as I went through that 30 years ago and have been shooting a hinge with back tension ever since.


I go through this every year after putting my target rig down for the summer. When I pick it up after hunting season, it takes about a month of heavy conditioning to get the muscles back up to handle the heavy beast. That means just shooting a lot. I may start strong, but then I fall off until I get the strength built back up.

Vertical float issues are usually directly affected by front stabilizer weight. I may start with a lower weight when I first start shooting again, but when my strength builds back up, I have to put the weight back on. Usually pulling harder into the stops helps slow down movement too. Lower let-off just keeps you honest if you relax too much on the stops. If you pull into the stops as part of your firing process, Let-off is mostly irrelevant.

Target panic issues in my experience are reoccurring. When I struggle to get the dot to hold still, for whatever reason, natural instinct sets in and I try to just get it close and fire. The biggest one is dropping out or freezing low. Also the ever dreaded “bump and fire”, that launches the arrow out the top. (all three vertical miss issues) The only cure I’ve found is just practice. Practice holding with let down drills to take the shooting pressure out of your mind. Practice blind bale to work on the release, and short game to build confidence.


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## SonnyThomas

So, nothing on the front and 16 ounces of weight on the back. Seems like a "crutch" and a "crutch" will sooner or later fail.

Like you noted holding weight didn't seem to matter. So I'd look to bow arm, bow shoulder and release arm position and along with it, follow through. You need some one to watch you. Some one that isn't afraid to tell it straight. No gabbing until a collection of watches take place and you call your shot out.


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## Bees

When I started and stopped my release action I got the bob.....

most don't equate the low hold and the bob to form flaws.
When I fixed my form flaws all this stuff went away.

what you have done is used weight to cover up the problem 
I expect the problem will resurface sometime down the line...


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## Joe Schnur

Let's have a video posted lots of conjecture with insufficient data.here is my guess when I shot a week shot I would get bobing also if I let the sight ever get below the center. If you use muscles to raise the bow those can cause bobing . If it ever goes below center I let down and start over. An accurate consistent hold hates muscles to get involved they run out of oxygen quickly and begin to move


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## Joe Schnur

N7709K said:


> Getting a handle on your float and making the changes needed to it is more or less a two-fold process: 1) you need to diagnose what your float is, how much it moves, and HOW it moves AND 2)you need to evaluate the most likely cause for why your float is doing what does and subsequently the best course of action to adjust your float. Part one takes hours behind the bow; learning your float isn't something that will be done in a session or two at the range or while sitting at home- you need to put time in and arrows through the bow. Part two takes applying solutions to part one AND understanding that for the first day or two things may become unstable with sight picture due to the changes...
> 
> 
> part 1)
> 
> first step is shoot the bow; put arrows through it, lots of them. Keep ALL targets and watch what and where your dot goes. on the GOOD shots, make a mental note of what the dot did (if you have a training log WRITE THIS FEEDBACK DOWN until you have learned what a good shot looks like through the sight); same for the bad shots- BUT don't be descriptive with them "dot hit the red, moved very fast, fell out the bottom, etc"... leave it vague. After bout 1000 arrows you'll see patterns show up and you'll have a decent idea at HOW your dot moves; it moves at this speed, moves this much... you'll know that it moves in a consistent path, but you won't really be able to describe that path yet.
> 
> After you have the mental image of what your dot is doing and have some notes hang a NEW face(this is important; you don't want a blemished face) and watch your dot- watch the pattern it moves in, how it moves. Make notes of how the sight looks on a virgin face. Now shoot a game, watching your dot as you go; are there any correlations in how your dot reacts to shot quality? do different spots have different holds? etc (this is where saving faces comes in HUGE). After the end of the round take a few shots on the used face and pay very close attention to how your dot moves.
> 
> When you get home or the range gets quiet lay your target faces out and start running through how much your dot moves; how it moves. Look at the targets. Are the targets showing the same pattern that your dot is making? if you have a low bob in your sight you'll have a vertical string on the paper, etc... are the groups tighter than how much your dot moves? are they more open? As the shooter you need to identify the pattern between dot movement and how arrows are printing.
> 
> Part 2)
> What pattern is showing up? how is your dot moving?
> 
> Some of the common issues:
> 
> Hard hands- the sight will seem jittery and you're dot is going to dart back and forth; the whole bow will feel like it is teetering... (bow hand). Release hand being hard will have the dot hold VERY tight, but the release doesn't wanna move; the shot just won't go.
> 
> Low bob- The most common is shoulders being out of alignment; the bow shoulder being high and forcing the bow arm down and the release shoulder being higher than the bow shoulder causing the upper portion to "slant" downward. Peep height will also add a low bob; setting the peep for the distance you are shooting is the best option for indoors AND setting it so as to keep the head up straight (when you come to full draw and hit anchor you should be looking through the peep at your dot on the paper; the bow should be setup to fit the shooter not make the shooter fit to the bow). Bars not being tuned correctly is another issue; but it is usually compounded on one or several of the above.
> 
> Loose hold- DL is too long, mass weight is too much for the holding weight, leaning back/hollow back, imbalance is weight distribution between the feet, torso lacks a partial twist... this is more case sensitive as to the real cause and which of the issues is causing the others
> 
> Fast dot movement- DL is too short, too light on mass weight, firm hands, too small of a dot/pin
> 
> Slow and sweeping dot movement- DL too long, holding weight is too light, bars are set incorrectly, bleeding pressure during the shot
> 
> Directional float- by this I mean is your dot have a low right fade, a straight left fade, a high right fade, etc. There is an imbalance in pressure between the halves and one is giving in to the other... The shot can be collapsing (low right for a right handed shooter), the shooter can be trying to strong arm the shot (straight left, again for a right handed shooter).
> 
> just to list a few....
> 
> Knowing what your dot does you can decide the cause and make the needed changes... with 90% of this there won't be a blanket answer; each case is a little different.


From the float thread might be helpful


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## Lazarus

va MTN MAN said:


> I have been shooting target archery for over 35 years. I have shot decent scores but never top ten. I have always fought a low hold or bob down while aiming. I have tried multiple draw lengths and stabilizer weights fore and aft. Some things help but it is always there,I have a 31 inch draw and hybrid cam bows seem to be worse for me. Well the other day while shooting i took the front bar off just to see and viola all of a sudden no more bob just a faster float. I had the bow set up with a 30 inch stinger and only one ounce on front with a 10 inch on back with 8 ounces, this pretty much balanced the bow. after shooting without the front bar I added 8 more ounces on the rear which balanced out the same as without the front bar. This seems to be working.
> Any ideas why I need so much rear weight.


The most frequent cause of this all too common phenomena is a very simple, yet usually mis-diagnosed. Please hear me out. 

Most people grab up a freestyle bow that with everything on it weighs (give or take) close to ten pounds. Now, complicate that with the fact that X ounces of raw weight have at least (depending on stabilizer length) 30" of leverage on the shooters extended arm which is likely 30" long or so, that's almost 60" of leverage. Now, if you don't train the specific muscles to hold that much weight steady what's going to happen when under a little stress? It's obviously going to want to drop out the bottom! 

The reason I point this out is I'm convinced the majority of shooters that complain about the "low hold" or bob don't do anything to train those specific muscles that are effected by un natural weight and leverage. On the other hand I do know shooters who train with either extra heavy weight on their bars, or regular weight training. I don't know a one that complains about "low hold." 

Just like most things in archery shooters tend to make it too complicated, or look for technical solutions to simple problems. Again, most times "low hold" is gravity, or maybe even laziness. 

:02


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## SonnyThomas

Nice catch, Lazarus.

I just went through this not too long ago. I thought I wanted something in the 8 pound range. At first it seemed pretty darned good and then the bottom started falling out. I ended up removing 10 ounces before things felt good again. I've added -1- ounce since. Maybe a bit more is needed, but just taking off -1- ounce on the right and moving it to the left should make things better. Basically, weight wise, I'm right back where I was with my other target bow, just that I've the weight spread out between -2- back bars instead of -1-.


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## Bees

Lazarus said:


> The most frequent cause of this all too common phenomena is a very simple, yet usually mis-diagnosed. Please hear me out.
> 
> Most people grab up a freestyle bow that with everything on it weighs (give or take) close to ten pounds. Now, complicate that with the fact that X ounces of raw weight have at least (depending on stabilizer length) 30" of leverage on the shooters extended arm which is likely 30" long or so, that's almost 60" of leverage. Now, if you don't train the specific muscles to hold that much weight steady what's going to happen when under a little stress? It's obviously going to want to drop out the bottom!
> 
> The reason I point this out is I'm convinced the majority of shooters that complain about the "low hold" or bob don't do anything to train those specific muscles that are effected by un natural weight and leverage. On the other hand I do know shooters who train with either extra heavy weight on their bars, or regular weight training. I don't know a one that complains about "low hold."
> 
> Just like most things in archery shooters tend to make it too complicated, or look for technical solutions to simple problems. Again, most times "low hold" is gravity, or maybe even laziness.
> 
> :02


yep most on this website will say you don't want to use muscle to hold the bow steady.

I used to think that too and then one day I wondered why I couldn't improve.

So I started doing one arm push offs against the wall with my bow arm. 
I still do that exercise as it strengths my whole bow arm side of my body.

then with a lot of work I learned what I had to do to hold the bow steady
and yep contrary to popular opinion, I use muscle to hold steady and plenty of it.
In the beginning I had to concentrate really hard on making this holding steady thing happen.
Today I don't have to think about it much at all. 
I think what happened is my subconscious mind has taken over the muscle control duties of my holding steady 
Still using the muscles, I'm just not consciously as aware of it.

Same thing with my rhomboids, I finally have conscious control of them
no telling what my subconscious mind is doing with them during my cycle
I just don't know but I suspect there is a lot of subconscious muscle control happening in my body when I shoot my shot.. 
muscle makes it all work.... 

Oh; my target bow used to weight 10 pounds 6 ounces.
After my alignment work and my bow weight is 7 pounds 8 ounces.
and I don't miss the 3 pounds at all... 
it's easier for me to hold a lighter weight steady than a heavier one.

Welp; back to my eye sight picture work, I can shoot just fine.
if I can get an good focused sight picture on the target face I might be able to score better
right now it's like trying to shoot with a hand in my face, can't see so good..


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## va MTN MAN

Lazarus said:


> The most frequent cause of this all too common phenomena is a very simple, yet usually mis-diagnosed. Please hear me out.
> 
> Most people grab up a freestyle bow that with everything on it weighs (give or take) close to ten pounds. Now, complicate that with the fact that X ounces of raw weight have at least (depending on stabilizer length) 30" of leverage on the shooters extended arm which is likely 30" long or so, that's almost 60" of leverage. Now, if you don't train the specific muscles to hold that much weight steady what's going to happen when under a little stress? It's obviously going to want to drop out the bottom!
> 
> The reason I point this out is I'm convinced the majority of shooters that complain about the "low hold" or bob don't do anything to train those specific muscles that are effected by un natural weight and leverage. On the other hand I do know shooters who train with either extra heavy weight on their bars, or regular weight training. I don't know a one that complains about "low hold."
> 
> Just like most things in archery shooters tend to make it too complicated, or look for technical solutions to simple problems. Again, most times "low hold" is gravity, or maybe even laziness.
> 
> :02


I might be wrong but I dont think that would apply here as I dont have as much of a bob problem with the added 8ozs I put on the rear. If it was a strength issue I would think the extra mass weight would show it. I have a 14 target range at my home and last summer I shot an average of 5 or 6 rounds a week, bob was no better at the end of summer than begining. Strength should have built up over summer and seen an improvement.


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## Lazarus

va MTN MAN said:


> I might be wrong but I dont think that would apply here as I dont have as much of a bob problem with the added 8ozs I put on the rear. If it was a strength issue I would think the extra mass weight would show it. I have a 14 target range at my home and last summer I shot an average of 5 or 6 rounds a week, bob was no better at the end of summer than begining. Strength should have built up over summer and seen an improvement.


Question; as a general rule if you are doing lots of reps with a light weight are you building strength, or are you building endurance? In order to more effectively hold up a heavier weight what do you need to have? Strength or endurance?


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## EPLC

Lazarus said:


> Question; as a general rule if you are doing lots of reps with a light weight are you building strength, or are you building endurance? In order to more effectively hold up a heavier weight what do you need to have? Strength or endurance?


Depending how many arrows you need to shot I submit you would need both.


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## Lazarus

va MT MAN, my point above was this; most archers think that because they are shooting a lot they are building strength. That's just not the case. You have to lift "heavier" to build strength. That's why so many people struggle with the low hold/bob, because they think they have built their strength by shooting a lot, when in reality they haven't. They _have_ built muscle memory however, therefore if they have been doing it wrong (holding low) it's built into their subconscious so they won't "think" it's a strength issue.

There's a couple of things you can do to overcome that. After giving it some thought PM me if you "buy in." If not, no big deal.


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## Lazarus

EPLC said:


> Depending how many arrows you need to shot I submit you would need both.


You are right EPLC. If you shoot ONE arrow, you need the strength to hold that weight up! :wink:

True story.


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## Joe Schnur

I guess we are probably saying the same thing just indifferent ways if you raise your bow with the bow arm and shoulder muscles then draw with the draw arm you will fatigue the bow arm and shoulder quite quickly the system must be balanced and held up at draw by your solid stance and hold form if everything was completely relaxed the bow would drop on the floor


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## cbrunson

va MTN MAN said:


> I might be wrong but I dont think that would apply here as I dont have as much of a bob problem with the added 8ozs I put on the rear. If it was a strength issue I would think the extra mass weight would show it. I have a 14 target range at my home and last summer I shot an average of 5 or 6 rounds a week, bob was no better at the end of summer than begining. Strength should have built up over summer and seen an improvement.


Just for clarification. Are you saying you shoot each target one time for a round, five or six times a week? That's only 75 - 90 shots a week.


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## Bees

I didn't hold the bare bow (sight on it) very steady until I fixed my alignment issues.
the normally accepted position of open shoulders didn't work for me. 
so with just the bow I changed my alignment and bow arm posture until I could hold steady.
it's a balance of the front bow arm side and the back, when you find the correct dynamic tension between the bow handle and the string
the sight pictures slows down ,way down, and your left with a small float. (doesn't sound like you have found your best alignment to me)
the next part , how to get the arrow released without making the float any bigger.
what you see is when you start moving things in the back, the front moves a lot, sight picture takes a big dump.
this isn't really your float, its just you generating a lot of wanted motion while your trying to release the arrow.

when I had a big float out into the yellow and white, I also generated a lot of motion (weak bow arm was most of it) while trying to release, which made the sight jump out into the red. And it would jump out there just as the arrow was leaving, to late to save it.

it's Only taken me 12 years to learn how to release an arrow without making the float bigger...
during that time I would do what I could physically with my rhomboid move, when I had it the best I could get it
I would add weights to the stabilizer to minimize the movement I was generating. and shoot that set up.
with time I got my rhomboid range of motion developed and now I don't generate the motion.

I have less weights on the bow today and with my new improved smaller float, my score has a change to go up. time will tell...


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## va MTN MAN

cbrunson said:


> Just for clarification. Are you saying you shoot each target one time for a round, five or six times a week? That's only 75 - 90 shots a week.


4 arrows per target
Nfaa targets
20 feet to eighty yards
112 arrows


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## SonnyThomas

va MTN MAN said:


> I might be wrong but I dont think that would apply here as I dont have as much of a bob problem with the added 8ozs I put on the rear. If it was a strength issue I would think the extra mass weight would show it. I have a 14 target range at my home and last summer I shot an average of 5 or 6 rounds a week, bob was no better at the end of summer than begining. Strength should have built up over summer and seen an improvement.





va MTN MAN said:


> 4 arrows per target
> Nfaa targets
> 20 feet to eighty yards
> 112 arrows


When I was working I didn't believe in strength training, still don't to a large degree. You can either shoot your bow or you can't. If you tire out; over bowed, bow fit sucks or your form sucks or combination. Shooting as much as you indicate I would have been a World Champion in Field. As it was I only practiced Field when Field events came up, twice a year, Spring Openers and the State Championship later in the year. I had one practice range, my back yard. No body kicked my ass....

*35 years of target archery*, you need a coach to tear you apart and put you back together. You're not going to find the cure of your problem here.


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## Joe Schnur

True it is foundational. Body strength is unlikely to be the issue but alignment release form... Hold the key somewhere a good coach should be able to fix the basic issue in no time at all


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## va MTN MAN

Thanks need to get to a coach


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## Ned250

Lazarus said:


> You are right EPLC. If you shoot ONE arrow, you need the strength to hold that weight up! :wink:
> 
> True story.


Ha so true, yet grossly overlooked.


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## bseltzer

I think the mass weight of your rig might be more of a factor than you think. If I'm understanding you correctly, the problem is less pronounced when you move the load to the rear bar. Yes? If so, then remember that a given weight 10" behind the bow exerts a much lower load than a similar weight 30" in front of the bow. Think of it as a lever. Certainly, the form issues already mentioned may make you more sensitive to the bow arm downward load, but I'm guessing that a real solution will involve addressing both factors.


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## Fury90flier

I'll go back and read through everything later...so this may be moot.

most people I know who have problems with hold try to fix it wrong...what stab to use, what weight to use, tune this/that...wrong, wrong, wrong.

First thing you do is get to understand YOU and how YOU fit the bow. There is only one way to do this and that is to take everything off...sight, stab, peep- everything but a rest.

now, go shoot. Maybe you can do this at 20 yards, maybe it's 10--it makes no difference...learn how to mound the bow.

the only thing you need to pay attention to is what the bow is doing at the shot---is it wiggling? is it leaping forward- what is going on between shooter and bow ...by this I mean how does it feel in your hand at anchor, how does it feel during the draw.

Once you understand the bow/archer fit...you can make necessary adjustments to YOU first. Figure out how your hand needs to be placed on THIS riser. For example, my Vantage Pro and my Supra require different hand placement...why on earth would I think that they'd be the same- both have completely different grips- one is nice and flat, the other is like an "A" tilted on its side.

Every bow geometry is different and if you don't figure out how to properly mate with it, there will be problems.

Once you figure out how YOU mate to the bow, then you can figure out dropping/dipping from there...Tiller tuning may be in order...maybe a DL change, maybe how you pull through.


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## Lazarus

bseltzer said:


> I think the mass weight of your rig might be more of a factor than you think. If I'm understanding you correctly, the problem is less pronounced when you move the load to the rear bar. Yes? If so, then remember that a given weight 10" behind the bow exerts a much lower load than a similar weight 30" in front of the bow. Think of it as a lever. Certainly, the form issues already mentioned may make you more sensitive to the bow arm downward load, but I'm guessing that a real solution will involve addressing both factors.


Very true. I would imagine that most people who might discount the suggestion that the low bob could be a mass weight issue have never picked up a full gallon jug of water, (8 lbs) extended it arms length, and tried to hold it "up" for any length of time. :wink:


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## va MTN MAN

A Big Thanks to all that tried to help. After many hours of trying different things and taking picts and videos of my self I can admit it was a low bow shoulder after all. Looking at picts and video it doesn't appear to be low but I finally got the feel of what was being said. It felt really weird after many years of a low shoulder but after a few days all started to click. Right away the holding was 50% better but it messed my release motor up. My arm is straighter and it made my hinge to cold. So after getting that set I am pounding the x as long as I do not force things.Today I shot 8 ends with only one x miss and I had already told myself to let down as something didn't feel right to start( dumb ass didn't listen).
Again thanks to all


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## xavier102772

Tagged.


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## bgviii

I have battled this issue all my shooting life. I've tried different forms, stances, weights and releases. I shoot a hinge and have for about 30 yrs and I have shot consistently decent scores with it. 300 55x and higher is what I consider decent...Anyway, for me..i found that this bob is essentially a blip in my mind. A slight shudder or relaxation or even rebellion of my mind during the aiming process. For me it would manifest itself during an especially great hold or when I'm the steadiest. I'm talking about a quick bob downward from the X to edge of the blue 4 ring. I would recover most of the time regain my float and shoot a decent arrow...however, I do believe this has always kept me from 60x or consistently shooting near that. Some may say this is target panic and I'm not sure I'd disagree. What I do know is that my mind gets tired for just a second of the intense aim. Don't misunderstand..I get lots and lots of arrows that go off when I'm dead steady. But the constant pressure of refining the aim is the culprit I believe...The only way I've found to have any effect on this is to work on two areas. 1. Maintaining great tension from the start of the shot until explosion. This relates to a consistent release process that I'm confident in...2. Aiming drills. Train your mind to stay relaxed and focused for the period of time needed. Just like with my muscles, too much tension tires me out faster. It's the same with my mind...Also I've learned not to freak out during the shot if I should get a bob. If I can recover quickly and regain the float I continue and even add some back tension..If I can't.. I let down and start over...Good luck. I'm making progress with this and I hope you do to.


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## Padgett

I read through this post again this morning and I saw my original post and I still think that all of those things in my post are good but the one thing that I think has completely eliminated dropping out the bottom for me is clearning my mind of all the garbage. I still miss what I am aiming at from time to time but the difference is that I am ok with it. I am 100% confident when I tell you right now in my shooting career is the first time that I have absolutely no little mental issues that I am dealing with that like to grab onto my pin and make it drop out. 

I did some major soul searching to get to this place in my shooting career and one of the hardest things to do was let go of my desire to be a pro shooter, I want to score like them and be on the podium with them. Now here is the cool part, I still want to be a pro shooter and I believe that I might make it but those desires are not connected to my sight pin. Holy crap, take a few seconds and read that last sentence again because it is a good one. This is the one single most important thing that I have done in the last year or so because it has allowed me to shoot better than I ever expected to, it all comes down to the fact that we all want to hit the center of the 12 ring and that desire to hit the center has little control issues attached to it and those control issues are what grabs onto your pin and jerks or pulls it out the bottom. 

For me I had to make the personal decision that the pro shooters could go screw themselves, I am good also. I may not be on their exact level right this moment but I am a very good shooter and I am going to hit where I am aiming at most of the time and if I allow my talent to do its thing it will continue to evolve and become pro level. If I continue to doubt my talent and efforts by trying to be more accurate than my current ability level than I am going to continue to hinder my future development.

This is the key to accept your current level for what it is and enjoy your shooting, this acceptance will clean out the garbage issues of controlling your shot and once you do so your shot will become instantly more fluid and relaxed and you will start learning the next set of lessons of aiming and execution. I talk about these lessons all the time but for most guys they have so many control issues that the lessons could be beating them in the face with a stick and go unseen. 

Good luck and I hope you got something out of this post, it didn't give specifics such as add some rear stab weight but if you truly take that look in the mirror and start seeing the things that are holding you back it was worth my 10 minutes of typing.


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