# Cheap wooden ILF riser length?



## kegan (Aug 28, 2006)

I'm working on designing a basic hunting ILF rig with longbow limbs. Nothing fancy, just basic wood and fiberglass riser and Omega hybrid limbs. I figured I'd ask others though before I get too far ahead: what length of riser do folks like? I'd hate to design my rig around an unpopular riser length!


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## wseward (Mar 7, 2013)

All those riser lengths are good. Bows that are 62", 64" and 66" all are popular. I now prefer a 66" bow. There are not many good 21" risers out there. Making a 21" riser is more of a challenge, especially with cheaper materials. I think of the Samick Polaris and the long shelf/cord length needed to make the window to shelf area strong enough. I also think of how Border uses multiple lams of carbon to allow the window to shelf area to be strong enough.

Neat project.

Good Luck!


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## kegan (Aug 28, 2006)

Thanks! I'm just hoping I can get an idea of what folks want to see most and design from there. I have a few ideas on how to keep it stiff, the real challenge would be to give the riser nice curves and good looks as well


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## bob cooly (Aug 28, 2011)

Kegan, you do yourself a disservice by using the word cheap, I am thoroughly enjoying my economical and affordable Delta Longbow.


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## kegan (Aug 28, 2006)

bob cooly said:


> Kegan, you do yourself a disservice by using the word cheap, I am thoroughly enjoying my economical and affordable Delta Longbow.


My apologies, I should have said economical, you're right. I don't aim for anything about the final quality of my rig to be cheap, just affordable.


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## bwd (Dec 6, 2013)

Don't really care for anything over a 17" ilf riser. Plenty of economical 21" warf risers out there.


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## Sanford (Jan 26, 2009)

I would say that 17" and 19" seem to be the norm, and 21" or 23" seems to be the size that have a gap in production bows. The current selection of shorter risers keep me out of the wood ILF market at the moment, but, I have a longer draw and would only use it for 3D.


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## Borderbows (Apr 4, 2009)

Kegan, Can I suggest that you make a riser that suits your limbs. for example too short a limb and too long a riser and your vertical stability will wash away.

so pick a riser length that gives you a good limb length for your design. that suits the draw lengths you need.

The market is flexable if your product is good enough...

(just make sure you cover your rear, by having conventional limb pad angles for that riser as ILF be ILF someone will stick recurve limbs on it or say its Longbow limbs only...)


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## Fury90flier (Jun 27, 2012)

17/19 I've seen plenty of-- less you have something different, I don't see a reason to make the same size.

I'd go for 21"...still short enough to be somewhat compact yet long enough to be good for target shooting should you decide to do so.


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## rock74 (Jan 8, 2012)

I would like a 17" riser with sight bushings to mount an ams retriever to make a short fishing bow .


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## nw.primitive (Jan 11, 2012)

Is anyone making 21" wood ILF risers? If not, is that because of the market demand, or is wood not the ideal material for a riser of that length? My 30.25" draw severely limits my interest in short risers.


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## nw.primitive (Jan 11, 2012)

Also curious as to what your expected price point will be? Personally I feel like if it could compete with the Hoyt Excel and Trad Tech Pinnacle that would be a sweet spot. I like the Pinnacle but not enough to buy one at that price. However if it were USA made that probably would have changed my opinion. I won't buy products solely on the country of origin but it is a consideration that factors into the price.


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## kegan (Aug 28, 2006)

Borderbows said:


> Kegan, Can I suggest that you make a riser that suits your limbs. for example too short a limb and too long a riser and your vertical stability will wash away.
> 
> so pick a riser length that gives you a good limb length for your design. that suits the draw lengths you need.
> 
> ...


Much appreciated! I'm looking at existing ILF limb pad angles, and taking your tip about adjusting limb wedge to get my necessary limb angle for longbow. 

NW, as far as price it'll be around 250 or so, depending on how I wind up going around it. Don't want to go much over that though, it has to be something I would buy if I wasn't building it:lol:


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## wseward (Mar 7, 2013)

Another thought, a "shorter" sight window and longer cord back to belly at the shelf, might reduce flex/twist/vibration at the upper limb pad on a longer riser made of inexpensive material?


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## kegan (Aug 28, 2006)

wseward said:


> Another thought, a "shorter" sight window and longer cord back to belly at the shelf, might reduce flex/twist/vibration at the upper limb pad on a longer riser made of inexpensive material?


I'll most likely just be tweaking the design of my Delta and adjusting the pad angles/styling for an ILF. That's the _plan _anyway:lol:


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## Roger Savor Sr (Feb 16, 2014)

Kegan, I voted for the 19" handle. Wood risers are most often used by hunters and a 62" bow(with medium limbs) is just about perfect for anyone but much taller guys who will shoot it fine fine with longs. The market is inundated with inexpensive(like sub $150) 21" WARF handles, so I think it makes it tougher to compete anyway. While 17" risers are great, and even though I have the TT Apex and love it, they are somewhat limited by a smaller sight window which can be problematic for some archers.......So, in my mind's blind eye the 19" handle appears to stand out. Best of luck in this endeavor, btw, and I can't wait to see a picture.


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## Rick Barbee (Jan 16, 2013)

There are quite a number of 15, 17, and 19 inch wood ILF risers to choose from.

I only know of two 21 inch wood ILF risers, and they are high dollar.

I personally think an affordable 21 inch wood ILF riser is needed, 
and would be eagerly welcomed into the market place.

Just my 2 cents worth.

Rick


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## martha j (May 11, 2009)

17-19" would be the favorite for hunting,,, { work on a 15" behind the scene} imho.


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## UrbanDeerSlayer (Feb 10, 2012)

You know what I think. But I will add my thoughts here. I have two points. One, I agree that a 21" wood riser is probably the least currently available option. However, secondly, you have a good thing going with the Delta at 18". The Delta is a very smooth shooting set up. So.... What's wrong with an 18" Delta "warfed" to ILF. Is it possible? There aren't any 18" ILF risers around that I know of, you have the basic design to start with, so can you rework the limb pads and get a working ILF riser?


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## Trigun (Mar 27, 2005)

kegan said:


> Thanks! I'm just hoping I can get an idea of what folks want to see most and design from there. I have a few ideas on how to keep it stiff, the real challenge would be to give the riser nice curves and good looks as well


I totally agree with the other member said work with your limbs. You might alreay know recurve hunter want a shorter bow, so a shorter riser should be more demanding, I think Bearpaw also come up a short riser recurve named Mohawk hunter.

Edmond


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## grantmac (May 31, 2007)

15-19" is a saturated market. At least 3 manufacturers are offering risers in the <$400 market with a bunch more in the high end.
21-23" is completely untapped until you start to spend +$600.

A fairly short sight window combined with an Ipe and fiberglass construction should get the job done.

Do yourself a favor though, don't do what most other builders do and just shrink Olympic geometry. Make it Barebow specific.

-Grant


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## Todd the archer (Feb 7, 2003)

I have made several 21" all wood ILF risers with no added laminations just from a single block of wood. They are a little blocky looking mostly because I lean towards over building them for strength and I like a little extra mass for stability.

This one is hickory.


I have another from walnut try to post picture later if people want to see it.

Personally I like 21" as my favorite length with 19" a close second.

Love to see what you come up with Kegan.

Todd


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## MAC 11700 (Feb 22, 2011)

Out of all of the riser lengths I've owned and shot...the 21 " has always been my favorite..

I've got a 29" draw and feel the shorter risers never really feel right to me. .

Mac


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## kegan (Aug 28, 2006)

Thanks for all the input folks, I really appreciate it! I have an Excel riser that I'm working on my limb prototypes, and I have to admit I like the 66" bow with the long limbs, however I'm aware that many bowhunters also prefer a shorter riser for hunting.

Ultimately I would like to offer multiple lengths, but at the moment I only have so much money I can spend on desiging something this new.

Keep it all coming!


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## fatzboys (Dec 2, 2006)

Kegan
I voted for a 19 inch ILF riser. I would buy 18,19,or 21 inch though. As long as it had a large sight window. 
Ive been waiting to place my order for another Imperial, but the one I have shoots so good i'm not sure what I would do different to the next one.
What ever you decide to do, count me in.I think adding a ILF riser is a good move.


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## wseward (Mar 7, 2013)

The Border Covert and WW RCX-17 have very good looking geo in the riser. Th ample deflex combined with the forward and high throat grip may be worth looking into.

Some Internet stores offer G-10 and Carbon in panels of various thicknesses. Lam of some dense wood block with layers of these thin pre-cured panel strips may make a strong platform for whittling a good strong riser. Then again you could lam your own panels from bi and uni cloth and resin. Inspect the panels, test them and then use with denser wood. You could try cores of Hickory/Mable for the panels. Or just go carbon-carbon-carbon. I always wanted to try carbon-kevlar-carbon (maybe even loft/fuzz-up the cured kevlar "core" with a sure form) again. Carbon-kevlar-carbon "heel patches" withstood the "heel dent" test on one of my sailboards after many big jumps. Carbon alone is great until it fails, then it really fails. Kevlar may keep the structure from coming unglued?

Not sure about the structure of these as I have not used them (nor have I purchased from the vendor), yet:

http://www.carbonfiberglass.com/Carbon-Fiber-Sheets-Composite-Panels-Fibre/07-plate
http://www.carbonfiberglass.com/com...nidirectional-Carbon-Fiber-Cloth-yard-50.html
http://www.carbonfiberglass.com/com...-Satin-Weave-Carbon-Fiber-Fabric-Yard-49.html
http://www.carbonfiberglass.com/Res...xy-System-Slow-Quart-Resin-Pint-Hardener.html

There is also lots of carbon tape available:
http://www.carbon-fiber.us/
http://www.westmarine.com/west-syst...al-carbon-tape--P004_120_004_506#.UW7ia8rJKAY
http://www.carbonfiberglass.com/com...-Tapes/5-7oz-3K-Carbon-Fiber-Tape-Yard-2.html

Glass:
http://www.carbonfiberglass.com/composite-materials/Fiberglass-S2-Glass-Cloth
http://www.eplastics.com/G10_FR4_Glass_Epoxy_Sheet

NOT SURE any of the above is good for bow construction. I used to frequently talk with guys in the Lam/Tech/Engineering area to double check my cRaZeY ideas.

Remember to not over spend or over expand...unless you can or want to make the RnD or capital expense. ;-)


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## wseward (Mar 7, 2013)

Todd the archer, That is a really nice looking Hickory riser bow. That looks like a great solution. A close up pic that shows the lams would be nice (rings/grain).


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## Todd the archer (Feb 7, 2003)

wseward here is a picture during construction. Hope you can see the grain. It is flat grain with tree bark side being the back of the riser the side away from the shooter when held in shooting position.


Not trying to hijack this thread just wanted to show that a 21" riser can be made with a single piece of wood although it is true a riser made with laminations put in strategic location make for a stronger riser just saying not mandatory.

Todd


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## wseward (Mar 7, 2013)

Todd the archer, Hickory is the bomb! The stuff is amazing tough. Thanx for the pic.


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## kegan (Aug 28, 2006)

Todd, you're not hijacking- I'm loving your riser! Any chance to see the limb pads without a limb on? It looks like you just used regular hardware store bolts?

Wseward, G10 is popular, but very expensive riser wise. Lots of folks really like it, but I have a very basic wood/fiberglass lay up on my Delta riser that seems to be working out really well. Not the best of the best, but economical is straight forward.

It seems that 19" is still the most popular by vote. Building a 19" riser would just be a simple matter of extending my 18" Delta riser a tad and slightly tweaking it for ILF.


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## Todd the archer (Feb 7, 2003)

Here you go Kegan:
I drilled a hole and used the dove tail button as a locator pin


Limb bolts started out as standard bolts (1/2") then ground down on a bench grinder to 3/8" off center. Rotating the bolt allows limb alingment and by turning the nut on the other side provides tiller and weight adjustment.


As you can tell I am an economical archer as well.

Todd


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## kegan (Aug 28, 2006)

Todd, I officially dub your bow as my favorite ILF of all time. The simplicity speaks to me on a deep, spiritual level


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## Todd the archer (Feb 7, 2003)

Thanks Kegan, that was my second all wood ILF riser. Later I will try to post a picture of a 21" all walnut riser with recessed limb pockets.

Todd


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## kegan (Aug 28, 2006)

Todd the archer said:


> Thanks Kegan, that was my second all wood ILF riser. Later I will try to post a picture of a 21" all walnut riser with recessed limb pockets.
> 
> Todd


I just think that's all kinds of neat


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## yugami (Dec 10, 2013)

I would be interested in something that a 30+ inch draw won't stack - that makes a shortish hunting rig. I'm currently shooting 68" and looking at 70" for target using smooth drawing Axiom+ limbs. I'd be interested in getting a short hybrid traditional rig to possibly use hunting.


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## Roger Savor Sr (Feb 16, 2014)

I must say, I really admire the way you guys are thinking about bows - simple, efficient, straight forward, functional, and no more expensive than it needs to be. Kegan, can't wait to see what you have in mind for the grip.......This is really cool.


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## wseward (Mar 7, 2013)

Todd the archer, Wonderful details!


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## UrbanDeerSlayer (Feb 10, 2012)

yugami said:


> I would be interested in something that a 30+ inch draw won't stack - that makes a shortish hunting rig. I'm currently shooting 68" and looking at 70" for target using smooth drawing Axiom+ limbs. I'd be interested in getting a short hybrid traditional rig to possibly use hunting.


Kegans 62" Delta Recurve draws smooth out to 31". in fact, it is smoother than my 70" barebow set up.


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## Todd the archer (Feb 7, 2003)

Here is my 21" walnut riser I made. Uses the same hardware.

Front view showing relief for thumb.

This shows the recessed limb pockets, which when limbs are mounted are flush with front.


The riser is not as heavy as you might think. Walnut is kind of light I can only imagine how much it would weigh if it was Brazilian Rosewood! It seems to absorb vibrations well at least compared to some metal riser I have shot.

Kegan I read on your website how you like things that perform well and are simple without all the fancy frills which drive cost up. Hope to see soon what you come up with to fill that niche.

Yugami a 21" riser with long ILF limbs would give you a 66" bow which I believe handle your draw length fine.

Todd


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## kegan (Aug 28, 2006)

Todd, you've certainly given me a lot to think about! I'm getting pretty excited, I really like how you skipped the standard metal detent slot. Makes for a much less expensive riser. Would you mind if I used something similiar?

Roger, I think I've found a really nice grip, as far as accuracy, on Tony's new Imperial. Here's a picture. It forces your hand into only one position and makes it very difficult to torque the grip. What do you think?


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## Todd the archer (Feb 7, 2003)

Yeah I am cheap, feel free to use any ideas that you may have gotten from my post. 
BTW the grip looks interesting may have to try it myself.

Good luck, Todd


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## kegan (Aug 28, 2006)

Todd the archer said:


> Yeah I am cheap, feel free to use any ideas that you may have gotten from my post.
> BTW the grip looks interesting may have to try it myself.
> 
> Good luck, Todd


Thanks, Todd!

Definately give the grip a shot. My next personal bow (whenever I get time to build one) will have that shape. I couldn't torque it, grip it wrong, or grab a hold of it if I wanted to. I think Tony is going to do some damage with this thing at IBO


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## wseward (Mar 7, 2013)

I like that grip detail on the Omega Imperial. Reminds me of the Excel and Horizon grips I have. All the bows I have shaped for myself, recently, have that flat grip detail.

Good Luck to Tony at the IBO.


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## grantmac (May 31, 2007)

That grip is very Jager-esq, which is to say excellent. Does the flat section tilt towards the thumb side at all or is it flat?

-Grant


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## JBowdelta (Jan 14, 2014)

I would love to see a 21" ILF wood riser with more mass than the current 19" offerings from tradtech. That should make a great 64" target and hunting bow with medium limbs.


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## Roger Savor Sr (Feb 16, 2014)

Kegan, I really do think that grip makes sense.


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## kegan (Aug 28, 2006)

Grant, this grip is square, the throat (for stiffness) can't be all that small, and a trailing edge toward the thumb pushes the hand uncomfortably into the grip. On a smaller grip though, I did like the taper into the thumb.

It seems the 19" is still the most popular. Todd's method might make it a lot easier to experiement, and cheaper too. I might just need to start trying things out and go from there.

I appreciate all the help, everyone!


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