# Why does no one report someone shooting in the wrong class?



## Garceau (Sep 3, 2010)

What happened? 

Sent from my Motorola Electrify using Tapatalk 2


----------



## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

Garceau said:


> What happened?
> 
> Sent from my Motorola Electrify using Tapatalk 2


Just what I said. Someone from your state shooting in the wrong class. Say something.
DB


----------



## Garceau (Sep 3, 2010)

We dont even have an asa federation up here....

Sent from my Motorola Electrify using Tapatalk 2


----------



## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

Garceau said:


> We dont even have an asa federation up here....
> 
> Sent from my Motorola Electrify using Tapatalk 2


I dont care what assc. See someone shooting wrong class say something
DB


----------



## wannabe even (Dec 30, 2009)

I know there is a question about a semi this weekend who finished 2nd I dont know how it works but I was told when u win out your gone for 2 years not 1 year and 1 shoot of the next year 2 full years please correct me if im wrong


----------



## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

wannabe even said:


> I know there is a question about a semi this weekend who finished 2nd I dont know how it works but I was told when u win out your gone for 2 years not 1 year and 1 shoot of the next year 2 full years please correct me if im wrong


It should be reported if it is against the rules.
DB


----------



## Babyk (Jul 5, 2011)

dont want to be the guy who is the rat i guess


----------



## archerykid13 (Aug 11, 2009)

I always wonder the same thing DB. I always report if I see it.


----------



## Double B (Feb 20, 2007)

I won out of a class a couple of years ago and was told I could not shoot in that class again ever unless I appeal to the comp. com. He might have but once you win out that should be it for that class IMO


----------



## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

Double B said:


> I won out of a class a couple of years ago and was told I could not shoot in that class again ever unless I appeal to the comp. com. He might have but once you win out that should be it for that class IMO


I did the same thing after a two year period. I was told it two years.
DB


----------



## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

Babyk said:


> dont want to be the guy who is the rat i guess


Could be the case!
DB


----------



## Double B (Feb 20, 2007)

Daniel Boone said:


> I did the same thing after a two year period. I was told it two years.
> DB


I may be wrong but I'll have to check. It was 2008 and I thought it changed the next year because a guy in my class shot one tournament a year and won it 2 years before , stayed home a year and took second the year I won it and people complained about him. It may have been changed sincethen


----------



## Joseph McCluske (Jun 8, 2005)

Daniel Boone said:


> I did the same thing after a two year period. I was told it two years.
> DB


You said you did the same thiing, did you win out or drop out?


----------



## treeman65 (Nov 24, 2005)

It does no good to say anything cause plenty of shooters win out or move up then they move back down including pros.


----------



## carlosii (Feb 25, 2007)

"Anyone who has won their way out of an ASA class may not return to that class unless approved by the Competition Committee. Any requests for consideration for reassignment to a lower class must be submitted in writing no less than two weeks prior to competition for review by the Competition Committee."

i couldn't find anything else in the current ASA rules regarding this issue. i don't know how IBO handles it since i don't have their rules at hand.

(off topic, but i wish ASA would enforce the qualifying rule for the Classic or just do away with it and call it the ASA Open Championship. i don't think its doing a whole lot to help grow ASA at the state level...but i could be mistaken.)


----------



## shootist (Aug 28, 2003)

carlosii said:


> "Anyone who has won their way out of an ASA class may not return to that class unless approved by the Competition Committee. Any requests for consideration for reassignment to a lower class must be submitted in writing no less than two weeks prior to competition for review by the Competition Committee."
> 
> I was told the semi pro in question did this and the committee allowed him to drop back to semi pro and while I question the decision, it sounds like he followed proper procedure.


----------



## wannabe even (Dec 30, 2009)

Good deal sounds like he done it right just heard alot of talk on the range.He must be a heck of a shot or nobody would say anything.


----------



## 3rdplace (Jan 3, 2004)

shootist said:


> carlosii said:
> 
> 
> > "Anyone who has won their way out of an ASA class may not return to that class unless approved by the Competition Committee. Any requests for consideration for reassignment to a lower class must be submitted in writing no less than two weeks prior to competition for review by the Competition Committee."
> ...


----------



## tmorelli (Jul 31, 2005)

3rdplace said:


> Dan I sent you a PM.


Me too.


----------



## Kstigall (Feb 24, 2004)

I recently found out that someone can shoot open "Pro" in one organization and not shoot pro, semi-pro or K50 in the ASA............... I don't necessarily agree or disagree but it is definitely a grey area.

This open discussion of these types of issues are why so many organization leaders hate the internet and especially ArcheryTalk. They would much rather the paying members not communicate with each other about "insider trading".


----------



## tmorelli (Jul 31, 2005)

Good shooting this weekend kstigall!

I looked around for anyone I thought might've been you........but was unsuccessful. Good luck next year.


----------



## Kstigall (Feb 24, 2004)

tmorelli said:


> Good shooting this weekend kstigall!
> 
> I looked around for anyone I thought might've been you........but was unsuccessful. Good luck next year.


Thanks.

Good job yourself getting on the podium! Congrats

Were you in the "1st" group with Larry Daniels and Klawitter? My group was a bunch of no name "old farts". We had a good time.


----------



## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

Seems there some ASA members that feel it none of ASA members buissness to get involved if they see someone shooting the wrong class or cheating.



See no evil hear no evil and speak no evil LOL Thought ever ASA member had right to question anything they feel an injustice in ASA. We all pay are memberships.
DB


----------



## reylamb (Feb 5, 2003)

Daniel Boone said:


> Seems there some ASA members that feel it none of ASA members buissness to get involved if they see someone shooting the wrong class or cheating.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Everyone has the right to question.....the problem is very few are willing to pony up the $50 protest fee to do anything "official" about it.


----------



## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

reylamb said:


> Everyone has the right to question.....the problem is very few are willing to pony up the $50 protest fee to do anything "official" about it.


 I agree and most understand the rules are very grey in some areas. 
DB


----------



## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

Kstigall said:


> I recently found out that someone can shoot open "Pro" in one organization and not shoot pro, semi-pro or K50 in the ASA............... I don't necessarily agree or disagree but it is definitely a grey area.
> 
> This open discussion of these types of issues are why so many organization leaders hate the internet and especially ArcheryTalk. They would much rather the paying members not communicate with each other about "insider trading".


Im being told over the years there been 4 or 5 allowed to shoot amatuers being a pro in another assc. Im talking a few well known pros and won that won indoor nationals. Your either a pro or not in my opionion.
DB


----------



## Shadowrider13 (Feb 24, 2012)

I understand you have to pay the $50 protest fee at the event. But, what if you don't know someone is shooting in the wrong class until after the event? I am in the process of writing a letter to the ASA office in Georgia right now. Ya know, phones are not allowed on the range while you are shooting and it was brought to my attention on my way home that this person shooting with us had changed classes 3 times this year and had won more than the allotted amount of money and should not have been allowed to compete in our group but did. I took this as just begruntled rumors until I looked this person 2012 record up and found it to be true.


----------



## treeman65 (Nov 24, 2005)

Daniel Boone said:


> Seems there some ASA members that feel it none of ASA members buissness to get involved if they see someone shooting the wrong class or cheating.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


well im an asa life member and its not that I feel its not the members business but it does no good to worry about it. If pros are allowed to moved down in class then what the heck does it matter. There should not be the grey area in the rules once you win out or move up you dont move back


----------



## RackAttak (Mar 7, 2012)

Sounds like someone got their butt kicked.


----------



## 3rdplace (Jan 3, 2004)

Seems like if they were a pro they would have won every shoot. I would think that they would dominate the podium. One thing to keep in mind is that in NFAA there is no win out. A person that should shoot pro can sit in an amateur class their whole career. Sandbaggers.


----------



## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

RackAttak said:


> Sounds like someone got their butt kicked.


Im queesing you would have no promblems shooting against Levi or pros. Now that would be a butt kicking
DB


----------



## RackAttak (Mar 7, 2012)

Daniel Boone said:


> Im queesing you would have no promblems shooting against Levi or pros. Now that would be a butt kicking
> DB


You "quessed" right. I would have no problem shooting against them. It would be fun watching them put on a clinic. Scores wouldn't be close but I wouldn't cry to momma about it.


----------



## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

3rdplace said:


> Seems like if they were a pro they would have won every shoot. I would think that they would dominate the podium. One thing to keep in mind is that in NFAA there is no win out. A person that should shoot pro can sit in an amateur class their whole career. Sandbaggers.


Maybe we drop all classes and just have one class. LOL Bet the turnout wouldnt be so good.

NFAA pro has no where to win out to go. He at the top of his game.
DB


----------



## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

RackAttak said:


> You "quessed" right. I would have no problem shooting against them. It would be fun watching them put on a clinic. Scores wouldn't be close but I wouldn't cry to momma about it.


No one stopping you. Your welcome in pros. There amatuers and pros and good reasons we got classes for each.
DB


----------



## treeman65 (Nov 24, 2005)

RackAttak said:


> You "quessed" right. I would have no problem shooting against them. It would be fun watching them put on a clinic. Scores wouldn't be close but I wouldn't cry to momma about it.


HECK YEAH. I heard ASA and IBO came out with new towels for certain shooters nerxt year FREAKN CRYING TOWELS
no wonder field tournament was so much fun a couple weeks ago.


----------



## 3rdplace (Jan 3, 2004)

DB what I was saying is that there are a lot of amateurs that should shoot pro but dont have to in NFAA. They can come over to ASA and shoot without a fuss.


----------



## Kstigall (Feb 24, 2004)

RackAttak said:


> Sounds like someone got their butt kicked.


I hope you aren't talking about me because I certainly didn't get my butt kicked!!!


----------



## RackAttak (Mar 7, 2012)

Kstigall said:


> I hope you aren't talking about me because I certainly didn't get my butt kicked!!!


Nope. OP


----------



## tmorelli (Jul 31, 2005)

RackAttak said:


> Nope. OP


then you obviously dont get it.


----------



## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

3rdplace said:


> DB what I was saying is that there are a lot of amateurs that should shoot pro but dont have to in NFAA. They can come over to ASA and shoot without a fuss.


So in your opionion pro NFAA 60X or good field shooter should be able to shoot K45 in ASA? 

Who decides this. Would it been fine for Dietmier Trilluss to shoot K45? I doubt Dietmier ever shot ASA.
DB

I know I wasnt allowed to shoot NFAA amatuers when I shot ASA Senior pro.


----------



## Kstigall (Feb 24, 2004)

He shot K50 this weekend.




Daniel Boone said:


> So in your opionion pro NFAA 60X or good field shooter should be able to shoot K45 in ASA?
> 
> Who decides this. Would it been fine for Dietmier Trilluss to shoot K45? I doubt Dietmier ever shot ASA.
> DB
> ...


----------



## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

Kstigall said:


> He shot K50 this weekend.


I know that. http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=1814721 

But Im asking would it be Ok for him to have shot K45 sense he never shot ASA.

What is the difference from him being a pro and other NFAA pros being allowed to shoot in amatuers.

Im trying to understand who and how the rules allow some but not everone.
DB


----------



## 3rdplace (Jan 3, 2004)

Indoor pro coming over heck yeah I would let them shoot K45. Totally out of their type of archery and I dont think they would compete.....at first.


----------



## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

3rdplace said:


> Indoor pro coming over heck yeah I would let them shoot K45. Totally out of their type of archery and I dont think they would compete.....at first.


 Indoor shooters suck. What possiable would a guy who hits 120X know about shooting outside.

Looking at Jesse K50 score he should have shot K45. Dietmier as well.

Come on now. Most indoor shooters dont have a promblem hitting outdoors. 

DB

Why not a make a rule anyone can start in K45 with move up. Promblem solved. Everyone Happy!


----------



## 3rdplace (Jan 3, 2004)

ASA uses their discretion already. They have the right to place a person in the correct class.


----------



## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

3rdplace said:


> ASA uses their discretion already. They have the right to place a person in the correct class.


Quess thats the end of this disscusion. ASA has that right to place anyone in any class at anytime.
There the answer.

Thats exactly what I wanted someone to post and say. There are no set rules for shooting pros or amatuers.
DB


----------



## Kstigall (Feb 24, 2004)

DB, 
Someone that has shot all ASA season in a certain class and then shoots one NFAA tournament as a Pro I do not see a problem with them finishing the ASA in non-pro class. An accomplished Pro even if only modestly accomplished should most likely shoot one of the Pro or Semi-Pro ASA classes. Even that isn't cast in stone. I could see some of the NFAA Pro's shooting an ASA tournament or 2 in say Open A , Semi-Pro or even Open B. It should probably be encouraged. 

I doubt seriously if any accomplished field Pro would even think about shooting an amateur class they thought they could dominate. Known 50 could draw some of their attention however.


----------



## tmorelli (Jul 31, 2005)

If the rules can't or won't be enforced, simply change it to match the desired enforcement and effect.

For now, this rule is clearly worded for all examples used in the above posts about Dietmar and a hypothetical indoor pro and it seems the Pro/Semi pro.

1. Dietmar didn't seem to have a choice of K45 or K50. He shoots pro in "nationally sanctioned field events" so he must shoot in his "respective pro class". 

2. Hypothetical indoor shooter is not specifically addressed so he should be "left to discretion." The provided example for "exercising discretion" is for barring "sandbaggers" from entering the novice classes based on experience. 

3. The semi pro/pro evidently met the requirements of the competition committe and was approved to drop back. Seems fairly clear in this rule too.....


----------



## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

Kstigall said:


> DB,
> Someone that has shot all ASA season in a certain class and then shoots one NFAA tournament as a Pro I do not see a problem with them finishing the ASA in non-pro class. An accomplished Pro even if only modestly accomplished should most likely shoot one of the Pro or Semi-Pro ASA classes. Even that isn't cast in stone. I could see some of the NFAA Pro's shooting an ASA tournament or 2 in say Open A , Semi-Pro or even Open B. It should probably be encouraged.
> 
> 
> ...


So how do you decide? Whether a pro good or not? If won allot of tournaments and proven he can shoot pro in NFAA. I just wish the rules were clear but after reading this its obviously wide open.

State levels combined K45 and k50. Thats no where fair. Usually the good K50 shooter dominates.
DB


----------



## jimb (Feb 17, 2003)

Kstigall said:


> I recently found out that someone can shoot open "Pro" in one organization and not shoot pro, semi-pro or K50 in the ASA............... I don't necessarily agree or disagree but it is definitely a grey area.
> 
> This open discussion of these types of issues are why so many organization leaders hate the internet and especially ArcheryTalk. They would much rather the paying members not communicate with each other about "insider trading".


K50 isn't a pro class as far as I know.


----------



## jimb (Feb 17, 2003)

Just looked it up, K50 is a Semi-Pro class. I was kinda right.


----------



## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

jimb said:


> Just looked it up, K50 is a Semi-Pro class. I was kinda right.


How do you get this? Your telling me some of those shooting it are semi pros. World class pros. Some have won the biggest events in archery.
DB


----------



## jimb (Feb 17, 2003)

Daniel Boone said:


> How do you get this? Your telling me some of those shooting it are semi pros. World class pros. Some have won the biggest events in archery.
> DB


Read the rules, K50 is listed under Semi-Pro


----------



## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

jimb said:


> Read the rules, K50 is listed under Semi-Pro


Best semis pro you will ever see on the planet. Jesse Broadwater, Dietmier Trillus and Russel Payne.

If you say so. I do know there was quite the controversy when this class was introduced. Queesing this was a way to not upset the pros.
DB


----------



## jimb (Feb 17, 2003)

Seems odd to me also. The ASA lists 3 professional classes. Open Pro, Womens Pro and Senior Pro.

Those are some good shooters listed there.


----------



## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

jimb said:


> Seems odd to me also. The ASA lists 3 professional classes. Open Pro, Womens Pro and Senior Pro.
> 
> Those are some good shooters listed there.


Dont forget Chance and Dave Cousins shoots this class.

Not sure why you saying this is a semi pro class. Rule reads. Just saying semi and pro must shoot known 50. My thoughts are with this written why are some allowed to shoot K45. Seems like to me semis and pros have to shoot K50. Once agian rules just dont make sense at times.

Known 50 Open – Known distance only. 50 yards, 280 FPS
Anyone required to compete in semi-pro or above may compete in this class. ASA membership is required, Pro Certification is optional.


----------



## jimb (Feb 17, 2003)

The biggest difference I see is that an ASA Pro Certification is optional for this class just like Semi-Pro. The class is listed under Semi-Pro in the class definitons. Maybe someone else can shed some light on this, but that is the way that I see the rules being written. Is there someone here that shoots this class or the Pro classes that can enlighten everyone on this.


----------



## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

jimb said:


> The biggest difference I see is that an ASA Pro Certification is optional for this class just like Semi-Pro. The class is listed under Semi-Pro in the class definitons. Maybe someone else can shed some light on this, but that is the way that I see the rules being written. Is there someone here that shoots this class or the Pro classes that can enlighten everyone on this.


I do hope more pros from field and fita come shoot ASA. Its awesome to see Cousins and Dietmier and Broadwater coming and trying the waters at ASA. Know if some sponsor would add money this class could draw more shooters from all over. Would love to see more top field shooters, Perkins from Canada. Shane Wells and others come join the fun.
DB


----------



## jimb (Feb 17, 2003)

I agree, I'm glad that the ASA has a place for these guys to shoot if they get a opportunity from their busy schedules. In Kentucky I had the opportunity to watch Dave Cousins shoot the practice bales. I get to shoot maybe one of these shoots a year and I enjoy watching some of these shooters. I'm also the guy that always stays for the shoot down because I enjoy them. Without the requirement of the ASA Pro Certificate it makes it hassel free for them, same registration that I have to complete.


----------



## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

jimb said:


> I agree, I'm glad that the ASA has a place for these guys to shoot if they get a opportunity from their busy schedules. In Kentucky I had the opportunity to watch Dave Cousins shoot the practice bales. I get to shoot maybe one of these shoots a year and I enjoy watching some of these shooters. I'm also the guy that always stays for the shoot down because I enjoy them. Without the requirement of the ASA Pro Certificate it makes it hassel free for them, same registration that I have to complete.


When pros shoot on Fridays. I love going and watching Levi and Gillingham and those guys shoot. Actually the practice range is a good place to visit and see there set ups. All seem to be good talented archers. 
DB


----------



## Hallsway (Jan 16, 2009)

You want to find a place for the field guys then make a known 80 class. You want to talk about getting things stirred up? Wow would that do it. But then again the poor guys that have to set and clear the lanes would have on heck of a chore. They would go from volunteers to lumber jacks.


----------



## Kstigall (Feb 24, 2004)

Right now having field pros shooting K50 works. It's that simple. Issues that may or may not arise in the future can be dealt with in the future. Other than K50 there is no class in the ASA for a "pro" that doesn't practice judging distance to 3D targets to participate. Maybe one day there will be enough interest in adding a "Pro Known" class to go along with the K45 and K50. 

There are all kinds of "possible" problems that could arise but I see no point is discussing what I see as unlikely issues.


----------



## t8ter (Apr 7, 2003)

Clearly doing a search threw Asa data base shows he can and has won a lot of $$$ shooting semi.Not so well win pro.So we're does Asa draw the line.I made the jump from unlimited to pro on my own.If I wanted to move back(and can done ask)should be ok.Winning out of semi more than once and moving back,not so sure on that.


----------



## J Whittington (Nov 13, 2009)

DB you make valid points that I the all knowing cleatus Lol, cannot dispute. IMHO, I think the reason why k50 is considered a semi pro class is because of the following, 1. entry fees for k50 and semi are the same. If I remember a post made by Range Player, Keith Trail, he stated that reducing the k50 entry fee (that was originally same as pro) would hurt the class as being reconginzed as a true pro class. 2. there is no longer a major contengency supporter for this class, no big money to shoot for 3. no shoot down round like the pros. 

these are the reasons that I think people associate k50 as a semi pro class besides for the use of range finders, is there a difference? my answer to this ? is no


----------



## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

J Whittington said:


> DB you make valid points that I the all knowing cleatus Lol, cannot dispute. IMHO, I think the reason why k50 is considered a semi pro class is because of the following, 1. entry fees for k50 and semi are the same. If I remember a post made by Range Player, Keith Trail, he stated that reducing the k50 entry fee (that was originally same as pro) would hurt the class as being reconginzed as a true pro class. 2. there is no longer a major contengency supporter for this class, no big money to shoot for 3. no shoot down round like the pros.
> 
> these are the reasons that I think people associate k50 as a semi pro class besides for the use of range finders, is there a difference? my answer to this ? is no


Good points! Never understood why everyone feels pros should have high entry fees! What ever happened to sponorships and letting everyone shoot the class and best archer win. Really surprised honestly manufactuers like Easton and more target venue manufactuers didnt get behind this and help sponsor it. Personally Im ready for class sizes in 200 archer range. Want to be taken real serious we need larger numbers.
DB
DB


----------



## shooter74 (Jul 7, 2005)

treeman65 said:


> It does no good to say anything cause plenty of shooters win out or move up then they move back down including pros.


i total agree with you on this.. it does not matter what we say..................................


----------



## okarcher (Jul 21, 2002)

Just have K50 pay pro certification and put them in the shootdown?!


----------



## reylamb (Feb 5, 2003)

Daniel Boone said:


> Good points! Never understood why everyone feels pros should have high entry fees! What ever happened to sponorships and letting everyone shoot the class and best archer win. Really surprised honestly manufactuers like Easton and more target venue manufactuers didnt get behind this and help sponsor it. Personally Im ready for class sizes in 200 archer range. Want to be taken real serious we need larger numbers.
> DB
> DB


Because another manufacturer threatened to pull out all of their sponsorship/contingency money if the ASA recognized K50 as a pro class......or so said the rumor mill, although I did get that from a few very reliable sources.


----------



## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

reylamb said:


> Because another manufacturer threatened to pull out all of their sponsorship/contingency money if the ASA recognized K50 as a pro class......or so said the rumor mill, although I did get that from a few very reliable sources.


This would not surprise me at all. 
DB


----------



## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

okarcher said:


> Just have K50 pay pro certification and put them in the shootdown?!


K50 class will keep growing. Surely some of the K45 will keep moving up each year. They need to make it a Pro class.

If it was me running the tournament. I would set it up where all pros could pay and shoot both classes. Then you got a real pro class. Would love to see the scores from a Levi or Nathan Brooks.

Pro class should be the best of the best. Right now you don't get that. 

This way pros have more chance to win more money. If your a true pro you want to shoot against the best.
DB


----------



## tmorelli (Jul 31, 2005)

okarcher said:


> Just have K50 pay pro certification and put them in the shootdown?!


I like your thinking!



reylamb said:


> Because another manufacturer threatened to pull out all of their sponsorship/contingency money if the ASA recognized K50 as a pro class......or so said the rumor mill, although I did get that from a few very reliable sources.


Tell me more.... via PM if need be. If it's true, that's a manufacturer I wont support.


typed slowly and with many errors on this touchscreen.......


----------



## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

Right now the time is right to have a tournament of Champions in Archery. 

Manufactuers pony up sponsorship money and get the best pros and get it televised by ESPN.

Have three venue shoot Field, Indoor and 3d.

How awesome would that be. Archery at a all time high for people interested.

Lets see who is the world greatest archer. Are you archer enough! Are you really the world greatest archer?
DB

Think about it manufctuers pony up there best pros. Worlds greatest archer title. Kinda like worlds strongest man!

Put up or shut up saying your the best. Let find out for once who wins the title.


----------



## carlosii (Feb 25, 2007)

spoke with a pro in Cullman who suggested that they should make the class known yardage, back it up to 100 yards. his point was that what we have now is a yardage guessing game that is unfair to shooters who live in areas where you can't practice year round. he also made the point that not everyone can afford a complete range of targets needed to work on their yardage. from what i understand he believed all the classes could be made more fair if similar changes were made top to bottom.

can't say i agree or disagree, but it does provide fodder for the debate.


----------



## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

carlosii said:


> spoke with a pro in Cullman who suggested that they should make the class known yardage, back it up to 100 yards. his point was that what we have now is a yardage guessing game that is unfair to shooters who live in areas where you can't practice year round. he also made the point that not everyone can afford a complete range of targets needed to work on their yardage. from what i understand he believed all the classes could be made more fair if similar changes were made top to bottom.
> 
> can't say i agree or disagree, but it does provide fodder for the debate.


Heard this unfair excuse for years. 3d a unmarked game and if your a pro 3der you need to find a way to get it done.
DB


----------



## tmorelli (Jul 31, 2005)

reylamb said:


> Because another manufacturer threatened to pull out all of their sponsorship/contingency money if the ASA recognized K50 as a pro class......or so said the rumor mill, although I did get that from a few very reliable sources.


I'm still trying to make sense of the/any manufacturer's motivation against K50 being pro..... I'm reaching here but is it as simple as: They dominate the Open Pro now and likely would not dominate the K50 since it's roots are skilled "dot shooters"?

Seems like Hoyt/Easton would have an interest in the growth of K50 since it's the destination for their high level dot-pro's.....


----------



## reylamb (Feb 5, 2003)

carlosii said:


> spoke with a pro in Cullman who suggested that they should make the class known yardage, back it up to 100 yards. his point was that what we have now is a yardage guessing game that is unfair to shooters who live in areas where you can't practice year round. he also made the point that not everyone can afford a complete range of targets needed to work on their yardage. from what i understand he believed all the classes could be made more fair if similar changes were made top to bottom.
> 
> can't say i agree or disagree, but it does provide fodder for the debate.


Tall lanky feller sporting a red shirt?


----------



## tmorelli (Jul 31, 2005)

carlosii said:


> make the class known yardage, back it up to 100 yards.


I won't need a rangefinder for that game, I'll need a transit and each target will need a reflector.


----------



## carlosii (Feb 25, 2007)

reylamb said:


> Tall lanky feller sporting a red shirt?


ain't sayin' it was...ain't sayin' it weren't. :wink: i will say he was pretty public about his opinions.


----------



## carlosii (Feb 25, 2007)

tmorelli said:


> I won't need a rangefinder for that game, I'll need a transit and each target will need a reflector.


and who you gonna get to cut the ranges? i suspect Bubba Dean would not be available for that chore.


----------



## reylamb (Feb 5, 2003)

carlosii said:


> ain't sayin' it was...ain't sayin' it weren't. :wink: i will say he was pretty public about his opinions.


:wink:


----------



## Kstigall (Feb 24, 2004)

As it is K50 is not ready to be a Pro class! Not even close. Maybe ADD a K50 Pro class but you can't get rid of the current K50. Where would the K45 guys go that win out or just want to move out of K45? It would be turning back the clock. I expect that as the current K50 grows, which it will, a "Pro" know yardage class could become viable. The fact is that it is the amateur classes and sponsors that make the ASA successful and putting the cart before the horse won't work. If Hoyt, Mathews and other big sponsors make contracts with spot or field shooters saying they must shoot X number of ASA tournaments then a "Pro Known" class can be instantly created. Until then the number of archers shooting K50 must greatly increase for archers to develop their skills prior to moving to a "Pro Known" class. It's very similar to how it came to be that multiple "Open" classes or divisions now exist. 

At this time do we really need a "Pro" class of a half dozen archers? I think it's better that the Dave Cousins, Jesse Broadwaters and Keith Trails have a place to shoot if they want to participate. It's not like we currently have a dozen or more successful Pro archers shooting the K50 at every tournament and sponsors clamoring for a higher level of reward and publicity. It'll come but it's not there.


----------



## Kstigall (Feb 24, 2004)

carlosii said:


> spoke with a pro in Cullman who suggested that they should make the class known yardage, back it up to 100 yards. his point was that what we have now is a yardage guessing game that is *unfair* to shooters who live in areas where you can't practice year round. he also made the point that not everyone can afford a complete range of targets needed to work on their yardage. from what i understand he believed all the classes could be made more *fair* if similar changes were made top to bottom.
> 
> can't say i agree or disagree, but it does provide fodder for the debate.


Wahhhhhh! Does he not realize the folks living in warm weather areas would be practicing at 100 yards while the great white north is still under 3' of snow?

I've never heard a real "Pro" athlete complain that it's not "fair" that their competition gets to train year round in the southern states. It's not fair that my short draw restricts my arrow speed so the IBO must have a speed limit......... It's not fair to northern bass fishermen that fish grow year round in Texas. It's not fair that us short guys have to play basketball on the same height baskets as a 6'10" guy. 

It's not only "unfair" that some don't have the funds for buying a bunch of targets but also lack funds or time for traveling all over the country (maybe the world) to compete. Many folks don't have the money, time or facilities to practice at 50 meters enough to be competitive at punching paper. By the way, he needs to realize knowing the targets is _HUGE_ in the "Known" classes not just in the distance judging classes. So having access to all the targets would still be a big advantage.

He wants the game changed to better suit HIS situation better. Yardage judging is a BIG part of the 3D game outside of "Known" classes. I perfectly understand successful "spot" archers wishing their game was as big in the U.S. as 3D. 

The ASA has done a stellar job evolving and adapting over the years. But based on the number of participants it isn't time for a top shelf "Pro Known" class. Hopefully it will one day be a no brainer to have a "Pro Known" class.


----------



## tmorelli (Jul 31, 2005)

Kent, 

There aren't a lot of examples of K45 win-outs moving on to K50. There seem to be more examples of people moving "back" to K50. 

Looking at the K50 Classic standings in order of finish:

Daniel Mathews went YA, OB, OA, Semi, 50.
Chris Hansen went OB, 45, 50.
Chris Berry went 45, 50.
Chad Hilburn went OC, OB, Semi, 50
Dietmar went straight to K50.
Marvin Cobb went Semi, K45, K50
Andrew Callaway went A, Semi, K50
Brian Jones went Pro, K50
Shane Gillispie went Unlimited, semi, Pro, K50
Lunsford went OC, OB, Semi, K50, K45, K50, Pro, K50
Haag went youth, YA, OB, K45, Pro, K50
Robison went Semi, K50
Mason has only shot K50
Bordeau went OA, Semi, K45, K50
Wolthius went K50, Semi, K50
Jirovsky went Novice, Hunter, OC, OB, K50
Cooper went Semi, K50
Pollock went OB, OA, OB, K45, K50
Chambers went K45, K50, Senior Pro, K50
Enochs went K45 (1 shoot), K50
Obrien went Semi, K50
Soemod (no history)
K. King went Semi, K50
Irvin went OC, OB, OA, Semi, Pro, K50

Now look at other memorable K50 shooters this year;

Broadwater- straight to K50
Cousins- Open Pro to K50
Trail- Open Pro to K50


This year's K45 SOY Peer Group (all won out)-

Klawitter - likely going K50
Me- Likely going K50
Kemp- likely going OA
Bowersox- likely going K50
Daniels- likely going OA

Last year's K45 Peer group-

Keith Carter- went to OA (only shot LA?)
Michael Hopkins - no records in 12'
Marvin Cobb- shooting K50
Bruce Thompson- shooting K45 in 12'.
Patterson- shooting K45 in 12'


So, all that is to say that K45 isn't a stepping stone to K50. The cast and crew make it look a lot like a pro class already since the overwhelming majority have been pro or semi already. K45 Shooters just aren't making that progression. Many go elsewhere.


----------



## Bowtech11 (Mar 21, 2006)

Well I would love to see that K50 and K45 shoot the same range maybe along with the women's known. Then set the targets up long and hard. remember you can have multiple stakes cause of know judging


----------



## tmorelli (Jul 31, 2005)

Bowtech11 said:


> Well I would love to see that K50 and K45 shoot the same range maybe along with the women's known. Then set the targets up long and hard. remember you can have multiple stakes cause of know judging


Except that the K45 range is over 100 people already. They'd have to add a range or reorganize because Open shoots their known half (also over 100 people) on the K45 range.


----------



## Kstigall (Feb 24, 2004)

tmorelli said:


> Kent,
> 
> There aren't a lot of examples of K45 win-outs moving on to K50. There seem to be more examples of people moving "back" to K50.
> 
> ...


I'm not saying there is a straight line from K45 to K50. Many of the best shooters in a class will skip the immediate next level. But K45 is being shot by a lot of archers and those that win or really develop either choose to go to another class or are required to do so.

9 of the 24 shooting K50 at the Classic this year at one time shot K45. This year 3 of the top 5 in K45 are likely to move to K50. I think these numbers show that K45 does feed K50. For the better K45'ers that can judge yardage well going to Open A or Semi is an option. Going Pro brings much greater expense. Personally, I'd have to spend a few grand on targets and spend a lot of time practicing yardage to consider an all unmarked class. I'm comfortable that my shooting skills can or could compete............at least right now but next year or even next month could be different!

It's not taking off like K45 but then again the entry fee is 2.5 times greater. Folks are much more likely to pay $50 to _just _play than $125. 
2010 Classic K50 - 10 archers
2011 Classic K50 - 15
2012 Classic K50 - 24


----------



## knox_nate (Dec 27, 2009)

I see the known distance yardage classes growing very steadily over the next few years. A lot of people starting in archery now have never learned how to judge yardage. The fastest move up with the smallest learning curve is novice to K45 to K50. The K45 class is packed now with a lot of good shooters and I see it only getting bigger.


----------



## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

Kstigall said:


> I'm not saying there is a straight line from K45 to K50. Many of the best shooters in a class will skip the immediate next level. But K45 is being shot by a lot of archers and those that win or really develop either choose to go to another class or are required to do so.
> 
> 9 of the 24 shooting K50 at the Classic this year at one time shot K45. This year 3 of the top 5 in K45 are likely to move to K50. I think these numbers show that K45 does feed K50. For the better K45'ers that can judge yardage well going to Open A or Semi is an option. Going Pro brings much greater expense. Personally, I'd have to spend a few grand on targets and spend a lot of time practicing yardage to consider an all unmarked class. I'm comfortable that my shooting skills can or could compete............at least right now but next year or even next month could be different!
> 
> ...


You dont want none of that K50. Most will go to unmarked.
DB


----------



## Kstigall (Feb 24, 2004)

Daniel Boone said:


> You dont want none of that K50. Most will go to unmarked.
> DB


Those guys will just have to move over........ or rather down when I come to town.


----------



## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

Kstigall said:


> Those guys will just have to move over........ or rather down when I come to town.


That attitude the one you better have. I shoot better scores on unmarked. :noidea: 
DB


----------



## Kstigall (Feb 24, 2004)

Daniel Boone said:


> That attitude the one you better have. I shoot better scores on unmarked. :noidea:
> DB


When you know the yardage you are trying too hard (over aiming) and ruining your shot.


----------



## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

Kstigall said:


> When you know the yardage you are trying too hard (over aiming) and ruining your shot.


Most likely the promblem the thing between the ears!
DB


----------



## 3Dblackncamo (Jul 22, 2009)

tmorelli said:


> I like your thinking!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I too would like to know and will not support this manufactor


----------



## Kstigall (Feb 24, 2004)

Daniel Boone said:


> Most likely the promblem the thing between the ears!
> DB


:wink: That's what I was saying without saying it............


----------



## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

Kstigall said:


> :wink: That's what I was saying without saying it............


Appreceite you being nice. Pridgen puts it pretty simple. $1200.00 bow wont help anyone with ten cents worth of talent! Ask where the promble is and he says look in the mirror!

DB


----------



## victor001 (Jan 31, 2011)

DB , sounds like Dean doesn't hold anything back . LOL


----------



## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

victor001 said:


> DB , sounds like Dean doesn't hold anything back . LOL


Would tell anyone here we make this game way to hard. He shot scores with bows 20 years ago that some cant match today.

Very well said from one of the best ever!
DB


----------



## watermedic23 (Aug 23, 2006)

3rdplace said:


> Indoor pro coming over heck yeah I would let them shoot K45. Totally out of their type of archery and I dont think they would compete.....at first.


Levi is an indoor pro champion.


----------



## watermedic23 (Aug 23, 2006)

jimb said:


> Seems odd to me also. The ASA lists 3 professional classes. Open Pro, Womens Pro and Senior Pro.
> 
> Those are some good shooters listed there.


The more defined are the amateur classes which include open a, k-45, open b, open c, senior open, women open a, womens open b, womens known, trad, etc. 

Known 50, semi pro are pro certification optional and all of the pro classes have to be pro certified. They are not amateur classes according to ASA rules.

But those of us who have been around know that ASA does what it wants, when it wants.

To me, if a person does something that jeopardizes their amateur status just before the biggest shoot of the year. Rules are rules. Dumb move dude!! 

The rule was written before the decision was made and they should think about that beforehand. His status has changed now and he has to petition the NFAA to have his status changed back to amateur.


----------



## carlosii (Feb 25, 2007)

watermedic23 said:


> But those of us who have been around know that ASA does what it wants, when it wants.


well, when you own the ball, and you own the bat, its pretty easy to do what you want. :wink:


----------

