# Hoyt Tiller, nock high, nock travel?



## WEATHERBY460 (Dec 24, 2002)

On my am32 I am getting a nock high tear with basically any type of rest I install. If I move the nock lower, it almost goes away, but not totally. It actually mkae my d-loop nock sit lower then the rest. I was wondering if these hoyts have level nock travel? I bet they don't. My cams and tiller are set perfect. I might try to adjust my tiller on 1 limb and see what happens later today.

I wish I could measure level of the arrow/rest relationship when I am drawn back.

Any ideas?


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## MTNMAN5C (Oct 2, 2007)

I've had this happen on many of my hoyts. What I always do (as you mentioned) is decrease poundage in one limb. Soooo if you have a high nock rip this tells me the top limb is pulling a little harder, so I would decrease the lbs in the top limb onehalf turn at a time. I've never had it take more that one turn to get a bullet hole. Let us know what happens.


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## WEATHERBY460 (Dec 24, 2002)

You are correct!

I gave my bottem limb a half turn tighter, and it made my nock high tear shrink to almost nothing.

I put the bow on the draw board and it seems to still be hitting pretty close to the same on both cams. 

Thanks...is there anything else I need to check?


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## MTNMAN5C (Oct 2, 2007)

I think you are good to go. If it's shooting a good hole through paper the only thing left to do is shoot it outside and see how she groups. Happy Shooting !! :darkbeer:


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## Roskoe (Apr 15, 2007)

Hmmm . . . it appears he did the opposite of what you recommended.


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

Not trying to be a pain - I'm a little in pain and more aggrevated - arm in bandage/cast from arm pit to knuckles.

Regardless of "My cams and tiller are set perfect" what you describe is almost always a timing issue. I've owned and setup more Hoyts than any other bow and never found weak limbs, tiller or nock travel the root cause of bad tears. 

Hint; Bottom cam, string dead on with reference point - on top cam, reference point is almost always a tad off. Read manual; timing marks, holes are just reference points. In other words, the marks aren't exact.

If you haven't, read over and set your bow as per Javi's draw stop timing, Sticky in this forum.


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## TMan51 (Jan 25, 2004)

MTNMAN5C said:


> What I always do (as you mentioned) is decrease poundage in one limb.


If you don't have a press to get the cam timing correct for you, this is a reasonable solution. Taking a couple of turns out of the bus, or adding a couple to the control will do the same thing.


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## Hoyt Thompson (May 7, 2007)

Creep tuning might have helped you out in this situation as well. As it tuned the cams rotation to your form.


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## Hoyt Thompson (May 7, 2007)

Also I have a feeling that you need to powder tune you bow. Not for fletching clearance but to see if you are experiencing level nock travel. With your setup being nock lower than 90 I feel that you might be getting downward travel of the nock and when the back end of the arrow releases the potion near the fletching is literally bouncing of the rest/shelf area and after the bounce giving you a good bullet hole.

Most hybrid cams exhibit downward nock travel of some form or another even when in the best of tune. when it is out of tune it can be very unpredictable as to what it is really doing.

Reset you timing and sync.
rest you nock to 90 degrees or slightly higher.
Creep tune.
Paper tune.
If not getting a good tear then powder tune to eliminate the possibility of fletching collision.

Get back to us on what you find.

You will also find out that the shorter A2A may never paper tune to perfect like a conventional bow. If you choose to fore go paper tuning because the bow has to much attitude on release there are other methods to you such as:
French Tuning
Modified French tuning
Bare shaft tuning
Line tuning
walk back tuning
broadhead tuning

that you can use to get your center shot and nock height set properly.


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## Hoyt Thompson (May 7, 2007)

SonnyThomas said:


> Regardless of "My cams and tiller are set perfect" what you describe is almost always a timing issue. I've owned and setup more Hoyt's than any other bow and never found weak limbs, tiller or nock travel the root cause of bad tears.


See I disagree

Cam timing and sync being of will cause the nock to travel in an uneven path.

If the top cam is taking up string faster than the bottom then the nock point will travel high to start with.
As the bottom cam catches up then the nock point travel will start moving into a downward path. thus causing erratic tears.

So in reality the cams timing/sync directly affects tiller(sync) and nock point travel (timing and sync).

Again just my $0.02


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

sonnythomas said:


> regardless of "my cams and tiller are set perfect" *what you describe is almost always a timing issue*. I've owned and setup more hoyts than any other bow and never found weak limbs, tiller or nock travel the root cause of bad tears.


In other words Hoyt has Quality Control engaged; Great limbs, excellent tiller and nock travel.



hoyt thompson said:


> see i disagree
> cam timing and sync being of will cause the nock to travel in an uneven path.
> So in reality the cams timing/sync directly affects tiller(sync) and nock point travel (timing and sync).
> Again just my $0.02


DUH?


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## Hoyt Thompson (May 7, 2007)

SonnyThomas said:


> Not trying to be a pain - I'm a little in pain and more aggrevated - arm in bandage/cast from arm pit to knuckles.
> 
> Regardless of "My cams and tiller are set perfect" what you describe is almost always a timing issue. I've owned and setup more Hoyts than any other bow and never found weak limbs, tiller or* nock travel *the root cause of bad tears.
> 
> ...





SonnyThomas said:


> In other words Hoyt has Quality Control engaged; Great limbs, excellent tiller and nock travel.
> 
> 
> 
> DUH?


*dont DUH me.​ *
The way you state this it is like you can seperate nock point travel from the timing/sync of the cams. You can duh yourself for making a comment that eludes to something not being the case and yet it is a direct result of the other.

You know it is getting to be a headache around here trying to help someone when others feel they need to belittle another person trying to help a guys out.
Disagreeing with someone is one thing. Being rude is another.


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## PA.JAY (May 26, 2004)

alright so basically adding 1 twist to the control cable will do the same ?


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## BigBore56 (Mar 30, 2009)

I just re-timed my control cable and got rid of the "high tear" in my paper. It also took the kick out of my new Vantage Pro, so they must know what they are talking about.

Experiencing lots of frustration, as I shot PSE's for 15 years, and now changed over to Hoyt. Much different animal to work with and tune! I think I am finally getting the HOYT system figured out, and strarting to shoot tight groups.


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## Hoyt Thompson (May 7, 2007)

PA.JAY said:


> alright so basically adding 1 twist to the control cable will do the same ?





BigBore56 said:


> I just re-timed my control cable and got rid of the "high tear" in my paper. It also took the kick out of my new Vantage Pro, so they must know what they are talking about.
> 
> Experiencing lots of frustration, as I shot PSE's for 15 years, and now changed over to Hoyt. Much different animal to work with and tune! I think I am finally getting the HOYT system figured out, and strarting to shoot tight groups.


yes for the most part this will help but sometimes it can go the other way. Creep tuning would be the most preferred method os gettins this right in the least amount of time.


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## WEATHERBY460 (Dec 24, 2002)

I started from ground 0 last night, following javis steps. I am at the poing to twist the string, to get ata back, then I will start shooting again and see what happens.

My tiller was off by a good margin (bottem string was closer then the top)

will keep you posted...

1 thing I learned....don't take shortcuts trying to tune these bows....follow javis steps!


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

Congrats. You're on your way.... I've spoke with Javi a couple of times. If in doubt or having trouble understanding his timing maybe I can help - maybe.


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## WEATHERBY460 (Dec 24, 2002)

Have a problem.....

I have tiller perfect and cams are hitting the stops at the same time at full draw....but when I tried twisting the string back to get the correct ata....my max lbs are below 67lbs. (70lb bow)

What did I do wrong?


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## Hoyt Thompson (May 7, 2007)

Was you tiller even?

if so or slightly off, seeing you are underweight try twisting both CC an BC equal ammounts. this will lower you A2A on a parallel limbed bow much more effectively than the BS. You must remember that JAVIS tutorial was written before the Parallel limbs were being introduced by hoyt.

You will need to recheck your timing as you do this and may need to tweak it some after this procedure.

I would start by adding 4 twists to each and see where you wind up.


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## WEATHERBY460 (Dec 24, 2002)

It seems like I can either get tiller even, or the draw stop timing correct, but not both at the same time.


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## Hoyt Thompson (May 7, 2007)

I got your PM.

Do not give up.

I will talk to you tonight.


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

WEATHERBY460 said:


> Have a problem.....
> I have tiller perfect and cams are hitting the stops at the same time at full draw....but when I tried twisting the string back to get the correct ata....my max lbs are below 67lbs. (70lb bow)What did I do wrong?


You did nothing wrong. As per Hoyt, ata has a plus or minus tolerance based on max pounds. Example; Bow listed as 32" and 70 pounds maybe 32 1/4" if max pounds is reached or strings twisted to 31 3/4" ata to reach 70 pounds. I have info filed somwhere in this clunk puter of mine, I believe the tolerance Dave gave me was +/- 3/16".



Hoyt Thompson said:


> Was you tiller even?
> if so or slightly off, seeing you are underweight try twisting both CC an BC equal ammounts. this will lower you A2A on a parallel limbed bow much more effectively than the BS. You must remember that JAVIS tutorial was written before the Parallel limbs were being introduced by hoyt.
> You will need to recheck your timing as you do this and may need to tweak it some after this procedure.
> I would start by adding 4 twists to each and see where you wind up.


HT is correct. Javis timing was wrote before the advent of parallel limbs, but still very effective. Measuring tiller on parallel limb bows is a little more difficult than the once traditional style compound bow limb angle.
As per Javi and HT reminding, bring up ata fairly close (between 1/16 and 1/8") with the buss and control cable and finish with bowstring. The bow string is more or less just along for the ride.



WEATHERBY460 said:


> It seems like I can either get tiller even, or the draw stop timing correct, but not both at the same time.


I see you're working with HT. Continue on. He and I PMed and we are both going in the same direction. One thing though, the top cam is not a true cam. It is more or less a wheel, oval, but still a wheel. Hence, Cam & 1/2.


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## vulcan320 (Feb 15, 2009)

I know that this can be a frustrating exercise, so good luck. Just a tip about tiller; with both limbs bottomed if your tiller is out that means that the cams probably aren't properly synched. If the top tiller is higher then twist the buss cable - that will rotate the cams down. This may make more sense when looking at the bow, which unfortunately I am not. When the cams rotate down, the 'eccentric' part of the top cam moves closer to the riser while the bottom moves away from the riser.
I hope that this doesn't muddy things up too much. My final step in all of this is always to creep tune, but this explanation may help some to understand the system more.
Again, good luck.


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## WEATHERBY460 (Dec 24, 2002)

I think I almost have it. I have correct ata length, even tiller, and my draw stops are hitting the same. I took the cables off and remeasured and they are the correct lengths. But, I am for some reason at 68lbs max, not 70. 

Any idea, I actually plan on shooting it at 65lbs, so maybe it is nothing to worry about.

Thanks for the help so far.


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## Nuwwave (May 20, 2009)

Not to hijack, but on my buddy's bow he twisted the stings as close as can be, but tiller is still a little off (like 1/16"). If he twist/untwisted half turn, it would be off the other way 1/16". I know it is probably close enough, but could he tiller tune it to correct? Like 1/4 to 1/2 turn?


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## dillio67 (Oct 1, 2004)

*Hoyts*

Nuwave
most likely the cables are twisted to a point where you start to lose fine adjustment per twist...in other words the more the cable twitsts up the more course the adjustment and the more you untwist the finer the adjustment.This is why its importantto build your strings and cables to the correct lengths with the proper amount of twists to begin with.
Hope that helps


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