# Aiming Issues



## aread (Dec 25, 2009)

Dropping low seems to be the #1 problem for archers trying to get better. Unfortunately, there are quite a few possibilities:

1.	Form... commonly a high/weak bow shoulder and / or release shoulder. 
2.	Draw too long....often a contributor to #1.
3.	Too much mass weight....also commonly contributes to leaning back and #1. 
4.	Nock height, 
5.	Peep height
6.	Shot sequence.... development of the shot prior to stopping the pin on the spot. 
7.	Weak anchor.
8.	Loss of back tension as you settle into full draw
9.	Tilting head forward to get nose on the string with short bows 
10.	Trying to hold your bow UP primarily with your bow arm - you should use your bow arm to hold it away from you. Hold it up with your back
11.	Shoulder alignment.
12.	DW or holding weight too heavy or too light
13.	Poor conditioning,
14.	Tiller

This is often too much for an archer to self diagnose. A good coach can save you a lot of time, effort and frustration.

Hope this helps,
Allen


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## sprinke (Jul 9, 2015)

Here's an idea ... as you are moving further away from the target, you are raising your bow arm to aim higher, rather than pivoting at your waist. This would have the effect of shortening your draw length, resulting in low shots (less power).

_I'm not a coach, just a newbie archer who's been reading a lot._


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## AgroDuck (Oct 2, 2012)

aread said:


> Dropping low seems to be the #1 problem for archers trying to get better. Unfortunately, there are quite a few possibilities:
> 
> 1.Form... commonly a high/weak bow shoulder.
> 3.Too much mass weight....also commonly contributes to leaning back and #1.
> ...


After many a month and lots of headache from searching for answers, I think I got some answers:

Had a complete re-look at all dimensions eg draw length, weight, peep height tiller, cam timing, everything that I could tinker with...
The machine is correct and set comfortable. The TOOL between the bow and the release needs some work. Sidebar angles helped alot and then I found a video of Dave Cousins explaining the happenings of his bow arm elbow and muscle workings and boy what a difference.

A lot of work still needed but it is going in a much better and consistent direction.

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## merlinron (Mar 23, 2020)

common form of target panic,....a mental block that will not let your release process take over the shot because you aiming process doesn't trust it run the shot correctly. the result is that you freeze low, so that your aiming process can say " look, I'm not ready yet" and have a reason to not turn over the shot to your release process. you have to teach your aiming process to trust your release process, by forgetting about shooting any distance and working up close, real close,...10 yards and nothing else,... where the bulls eye is big ad easy to stay in, so your aiming process can learn that where the dot belongs and to be satisfied enough t let your release process run. it will take time shooting many drills at 10 yards until the tendency to freeze is completely gone. then slowly working your way out to that 60 yard shot over the same drills you did at 10, but doing them at every 10 yard change in distance. them if you have any freeze up, any at all at any distance, do not let one single freeze up go uncorrected you have to go back to 10 yards and re- teach you aiming process to let go of the shot. the other part of this is to teach you shot that a let down, is a good thing rather than a failure by letting down every single time your shot is not running exactly like it should,.. with perfection. this all must be together and it takes a good while to overcome that freeze up problem, so if you are going to give it a try, consider that you will probably not do any shooting other than the drills for a whole shooting season. many guys that have the problem including me, do short " tune-up drills" of several shots at the 10 yard bunk before shooting every time they shoot. you will hear people say do blank bailing, but that advice is not what needs to be done. you have no problem running your release process when it runs, your problem is specifically a conflict about shot authority between your aiming process and your release process. they both know how to run just fine, but they both want complete control of the shot 100% of the time and that can not happen.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

AgroDuck said:


> A quick question with hopefully a workable sollution - AIMING - aiming at up to 50y I get to hold nicely on the target but as soon as I go further I tend to get a 6o'clock lock whether coming up from below or from the top I fall past and get stuck at the bottom again. Could you please point me in the right direction? Any and all help is greatly appreciated.


Not TARGET panic. What distance is giving you trouble? What is the maximum distance you are attempting to shoot? For the "uninitiated"...he has no trouble aiming UP to 50 yards. Then, he ONLY has trouble aiming at the LOOOOONGER distances. So, AgroDuck, to solve your problem, need to know the max distance you want to shoot? 70 yards? 90 yards? 100 yards? (90 meters). One more thing. What is your draw length?


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

sprinke said:


> Here's an idea ... as you are moving further away from the target, you are raising your bow arm to aim higher, rather than pivoting at your waist. This would have the effect of shortening your draw length, resulting in low shots (less power).
> 
> _I'm not a coach, just a newbie archer who's been reading a lot._


EXCELLENT question. You read excellent articles.


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## AgroDuck (Oct 2, 2012)

nuts&bolts said:


> So, AgroDuck, to solve your problem, need to know the max distance you want to shoot? 70 yards? 90 yards? 100 yards? (90 meters). One more thing. What is your draw length?


I enjoy IFAA shoots here in South Africa, so max distance would be 80 yards. I currently draw my CPXL at 30".

Interesting thing for ME is that most bows my comfortable draw is 30,5". Previous Bowtech's I jad to set to 29,5" with the CPXL coming closer at 30".

Yhanx nutts&bolts for looking into this question


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

AgroDuck said:


> I enjoy IFAA shoots here in South Africa, so max distance would be 80 yards. I currently draw my CPXL at 30".
> 
> Interesting thing for ME is that most bows my comfortable draw is 30,5". Previous Bowtech's I jad to set to 29,5" with the CPXL coming closer at 30".
> 
> ...


Since you shoot field archery...especially IFAA, you need to hit the practice range, and line up at the 50 yard target. REMOVE your sight. What did you say? I said, REMOVE your sight. BUT, how can I hit the 50 yard target, with NO sight? You can. Bring your bow press with you to the practice range, cuz we are gonna re-position your peep sight, to change your anchor for the 50 yd target. What does that mean? That means, you will assume T-FORM. Stand as tall as you can. Keep the bow arm dead level. But, how will I know if my arm is level or not? Bring a friend. Fire arrows at the 50 yard target, with bow arm DEAD level, and with your backbone DEAD vertical. BUT, my arrows will dive into the ground. K. 

Then, you goto the bow press, press the bow, relax the bowstring, and move the peep UP the bowstring 1/16th inch. This means your nock will land on your face, 1/16th inch LOWER. This means the arrows will no longer dive into the ground in front of the 50 yard target and might hit the target, but might hit LOW below the 50 yard bullseye. So, go back to the bowpress, and press the bow, relax the bowstring and move the peep even HIGHER, this time only 1/32nd inch. Fire again at the 50 yard target. Hitting closer to the bullseye, but the peep is crooked. Press the bow and add twists to both ends of the bowstring, to get the peep STRAIGHT at brace, and to get back to ZERO peep rotation. Move the peep higher yet again, another 1/32nd inch. BINGO. The arrows are hitting the 50 yard target bullseye, with NO sight, with your backbone TALL, and with your bow arm DEAD horizontal.

BAM. TArget panic is gone. You never had target panic. Simply a peep sight set TOO LOW, for IFAA archery (max shooting out to 80 yards).


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

AgroDuck said:


> I enjoy IFAA shoots here in South Africa, so max distance would be 80 yards. I currently draw my CPXL at 30".
> 
> Interesting thing for ME is that most bows my comfortable draw is 30,5". Previous Bowtech's I jad to set to 29,5" with the CPXL coming closer at 30".
> 
> ...


Now that you can hit the 50 yd practice range bullseye with NO sight, re-install your sight. Adjust your sight marks for 50 yards, with your NEW lower nock position (anchor). Do not touch your peep. You are going to tune your sight to your NEW anchor. Find your NEW 50 yd sight mark. Now, to hit 20 yards, to find your new 20 yd sight mark, you need to BEND at the waist, BEND at the mid chest, LEAN FORWARDS with entire upper body, to hit the 20 yd bullseye (like leaning over a balcony railing)....the left armpit has to move FORWARDS of the left ankle.

To hit the 80 yard target, you have to LEAN BACKWARDS, get your upper body to rotate AWAY from the shooting line, just not much. Hitting 80 yards will NOW be no problem. If you still have slight trouble leaning backwards, to get enough arrow launch angle to reach out to 80 yards...move your sight closer to the riser, and your 20 yd to 80 yd sight mark gap, will be shorter, so you don't have to lean backwards quite so far, to get enough arrow launch angle, to reach out to 80 yards.


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## AgroDuck (Oct 2, 2012)

Whole bunch of interesting info. Definitely going to some changes and see what happens.

Thanx Nutsandbolts

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## merlinron (Mar 23, 2020)

nuts&bolts said:


> Not TARGET panic. What distance is giving you trouble? What is the maximum distance you are attempting to shoot? For the "uninitiated"...he has no trouble aiming UP to 50 yards. Then, he ONLY has trouble aiming at the LOOOOONGER distances. So, AgroDuck, to solve your problem, need to know the max distance you want to shoot? 70 yards? 90 yards? 100 yards? (90 meters). One more thing. What is your draw length?


yes,...a classic case of typical target panic,....not everyone has the same threshold concerning target panic. some people get it when holding on all target distances, some people get it when holding on distant targets only. it is a mind problem,... your mind has no trouble at closer ranges because it is confident the shot will run good at the closer target, but at longer distances, as the pin gets harder to hold on a smaller bullseye, it starts to mistrust the shot procedure and freezes low. he even states in his post that he gets it if he starts low and tries to raise into the bull or he starts high and drops through the bull and then freezes trying to get the pin back up into the bull. that my friend, is classic target panic. we hear about most commonly at 20 yards because people most commonly get it at the spot target, trying to hit the x-ring. at thos dstances the whole bulls eye seems like an x-ring to the aiming process.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

merlinron said:


> yes,...a classic case of typical target panic,....not everyone has the same threshold concerning target panic. some people get it when holding on all target distances, some people get it when holding on distant targets only. it is a mind problem,... your mind has no trouble at closer ranges because it is confident the shot will run good at the closer target, but at longer distances, as the pin gets harder to hold on a smaller bullseye, it starts to mistrust the shot procedure and freezes low. he even states in his post that he gets it if he starts low and tries to raise into the bull or he starts high and drops through the bull and then freezes trying to get the pin back up into the bull. that my friend, is classic target panic. we hear about most commonly at 20 yards because people most commonly get it at the spot target, trying to hit the x-ring. at thos dstances the whole bulls eye seems like an x-ring to the aiming process.


YOu have ZERO idea about shooting IFAA...international field archery. Not target panic. Not even close.
I did a seminar in Florida once. Flew all the way from CA. One shooter claimed he had TARGET PANIC. I said, so, "why do you THINK you have target panic". Fella said, I KNOW I have target panic. So, I ask "how do you KNOW"? He said, why of course, I'm STUCK low.

I say, K. So, you only KNOW that you are STUCK LOW at 20 yards. We were doing this at in indoor range. So, I asked again, why do you THINK you have target panic? He said, it's OBVIOUS. I'm STUCK LOW. Then , I asked...2nd question. Any medical issues? Older gentleman. Well, he says, you are the FIRST person to ask. He says, he has NO bicep muscles. Surgically removed. Bilateral. He was shooting a Mathews Apex 7, single cam. I say, WOW! First I have heard of this. So, I ask him to shoot several arrows for the crow of students. He obliges. He manages to shoot a compound bow with NO bicep muscles. Except, I tell him that his draw length is not ideal, for him. Since he has no bicep muscles, he can do certain things, and only at certain angles. By the end of that first day of my seminar, we "SOLVE" his "alleged Target Panic" and got rid of the TP, that same day. NOT a mental issue, strictly an ANGLES issue, related to full draw posture and bow draw length setting.

IFAA...meaning INTERNATIONAL field archery, is field archery with a twist. EXTREME shooting angles, so the uphill shots are EXTREMELY uphill, and the downhill shots, can be darn near vertical, for the downhill shots. His peep needs to be set for 50 yards, and not for 20 yards.


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## merlinron (Mar 23, 2020)

Nuts and Bolts,......there is no mention of IFAA in any post of the OP's, (or anyone else's, for that matter) BEFORE I POSTED MY REPLY. I could not have known the OP was talking about IFAA, now could I have ? look closely for yourself, read all the replies before I posted before you jump to conclusions and have to hear yourself tell someone they are wrong... all the mention of IFAA comes AFTER I posted my reply about TP...... all you are doing is trying to make yourself look better than someone else, on the forum. I can clearly see that this site has not changed one bit over the years that I've been gone......so immature. I've only been back on this forum for a few weeks and for whatever reason, you and Dale are trying to chase me off,....again,.....it won't happen this time,... you might as well give up. I might have no idea about IFAA, but you have no idea about plain old forum courtesy.


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## Huntinsker (Feb 9, 2012)

merlinron said:


> yes,...a classic case of typical target panic,....not everyone has the same threshold concerning target panic. some people get it when holding on all target distances, some people get it when holding on distant targets only. it is a mind problem,... your mind has no trouble at closer ranges because it is confident the shot will run good at the closer target, but at longer distances, as the pin gets harder to hold on a smaller bullseye, it starts to mistrust the shot procedure and freezes low. he even states in his post that he gets it if he starts low and tries to raise into the bull or he starts high and drops through the bull and then freezes trying to get the pin back up into the bull. that my friend, is classic target panic. we hear about most commonly at 20 yards because people most commonly get it at the spot target, trying to hit the x-ring. at thos dstances the whole bulls eye seems like an x-ring to the aiming process.


The target size is proportional to the distance you're shooting. A 40cm target face at 18m looks the same size as a 122cm face at 60m. You didn't need to know that he was shooting IFAA because he said he didn't have an issue until he got past 50y. That indicates that he's fine shooting at targets, with no panic. People with TP have problems at every distance. Those of us that understand archery, have shot archery ourselves or have coached others can recognize that if you have an issue past a certain distance that you don't have at shorter distances, it's likely a form break down or a setup problem. 

The people who don't understand scream TARGET PANIC. The people that do understand actually fix the problems. TP is a convenient scapegoat for the less knowledgeable. Like witches got blamed during the witch trials in Salem. Ignorance led to people blaming some mystical being. TP is archery's mystical being like witches were in Salem.


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## merlinron (Mar 23, 2020)

yah,... you're right,.... I don't understand archery,.....from now on, i'll wait until you or N&B replies, then ask if it's ok if I contribute and agree with everything you two say....how foolish of me to think someone else could possibly know anything on this forum.....you two have it all under control, I can surely see that !.....sorry i'm not one of your sheep.


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## AgroDuck (Oct 2, 2012)

Between nuts&bolts, huntinsker and myself we all pointed to a form breakdown and maybe a slight adjustment needed on peep height. I have not yet gone the no peep way that was suggested but have been working heavily on front end form as well as trigger travel with the elbow and trigger location on the index finger - all at my COVID LOCKDOWN max abled 40 yards. Slow-mo video has helped very much to show when you are giving more correct pressure to the correct places.

I have had TP so bad that I punch a hinge on a handle-string-dloop trainer in mid-air not even aiming at something specific. It cause quite a bit of chuckles at he shop. 

I KNOW that this is is not TP.

Another topic on this forum can be evidently applied here - listen to all advice, take the advice relevant to your problem, give it a good try and accept what works FOR YOU. Archery does not have a one fix for all issues.



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## merlinron (Mar 23, 2020)

Huntinsker said:


> The target size is proportional to the distance you're shooting. A 40cm target face at 18m looks the same size as a 122cm face at 60m. You didn't need to know that he was shooting IFAA because he said he didn't have an issue until he got past 50y. That indicates that he's fine shooting at targets, with no panic. People with TP have problems at every distance. Those of us that understand archery, have shot archery ourselves or have coached others can recognize that if you have an issue past a certain distance that you don't have at shorter distances, it's likely a form break down or a setup problem.
> 
> The people who don't understand scream TARGET PANIC. The people that do understand actually fix the problems. TP is a convenient scapegoat for the less knowledgeable. Like witches got blamed during the witch trials in Salem. Ignorance led to people blaming some mystical being. TP is archery's mystical being like witches were in Salem.


OH I see,...so knowing that you are holding on a bull that is far away, has no detrimental input to your aiming process and it's conversion to the release process. my oh my, aren't you the one who knows it all....tell me,... how could you have any idea what is going on in some else's head when they are aiming ?.... and what gives you the almighty right to say someone is wrong on an open forum? further,....just because he is fine up to 50 yards doesn't mean there is no threshold where a person can be intimidated by the target,....oh,.. but you are so professional that you can't be intimidated, right ?. like I said, I can see this forum hasn't changed one bit, it's the same old immature forum bullies leading the sheep around by their nose rings as it was 6 or 8 years ago. Heaven help the poor ignorant person who might dare to reply to a post without your blessing. I think you know what you can do......


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## AgroDuck (Oct 2, 2012)

At this stage I think merlinron that you should rather leave your comments for another topic and better yet, take your differences with the member to a private message of some sort.

Thank you for the high-jack

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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

AgroDuck said:


> At this stage I think merlinron that you should rather leave your comments for another topic and better yet, take your differences with the member to a private message of some sort.
> 
> Thank you for the high-jack
> 
> Sent from my SM-A307FN using Tapatalk


AgroDuck. Some people like to talk about things they assume they have knowledge about. Field archery is very different from shooting spots indoors. IFAA can be much more challenging that NFAA field archery here in the States. Toes uphill. Toes pointing downhill. Lead foot lower than rear foot. Lead foot higher than rear foot. Sidehill lies. Shooting between trees. Target backlit with bright sun. Targets in a dark tunnel. Trees that did not grow vertical and throw off your sense of what is vertical. Targets that are not square to the shooting lane, target angled left or target angled right. Targets partially in shadow. 

But the most challenging targets will be the longer distance targets (say 80 yards), but either steep uphill shot or steep, really steep downhill shot. I find the uphill shots more challenging.

https://docplayer.net/43926578-Ifaa...-to-level-2-instruction-manual-1-p-a-g-e.html

Nice guide to shooting IFAA.


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## merlinron (Mar 23, 2020)

Nuts & Bolts,....I shoot targets like that all summer long in a fixed blade broadhead league,...have for years,.... rough terrain,...always out of position, unmarked yardage, up hills ,down hills,(very hilly, densely wooded course doesn't have extreme hill shots, but steep enough that you can have trouble shooting them) and a different course every week because different people set the course every week, so different in yardage and different in presentation every week.... what's the big deal about it ?. the shots on our course don't get all the way out to 80 yards, but 50 and 60+ every week. it's plenty for the average shooter to deal with. the club has a history of hosting the NFAA Field State Championship several times and one or two National Championship years ago..


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## merlinron (Mar 23, 2020)

I hope I didn't break any of your rules by posting that.:wink:


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## Huntinsker (Feb 9, 2012)

merlinron said:


> OH I see,...so knowing that you are holding on a bull that is far away, has no detrimental input to your aiming process and it's conversion to the release process. my oh my, aren't you the one who knows it all....tell me,... how could you have any idea what is going on in some else's head when they are aiming ?.... and what gives you the almighty right to say someone is wrong on an open forum? further,....just because he is fine up to 50 yards doesn't mean there is no threshold where a person can be intimidated by the target,....oh,.. but you are so professional that you can't be intimidated, right ?. like I said, I can see this forum hasn't changed one bit, it's the same old immature forum bullies leading the sheep around by their nose rings as it was 6 or 8 years ago. Heaven help the poor ignorant person who might dare to reply to a post without your blessing. I think you know what you can do......


Anyone can say that anyone else is wrong. You think I'm wrong and you're saying so. I think the needle is tipping in my favor though. Part of being on an open forum is that people are allowed to disagree with you and even point out why you're wrong. I did that. TP is thrown around willy nilly like it's some kind of disease that you catch. The truth of it is that TP is nothing but bad shooting habits that have been allowed to become the "normal" for that shooter. Another truth is that form issues can, and very often do, cause shooting problems. That doesn't mean that it's some panic disorder. It means that it's just another bad habit that needs correcting. The OP came on here, in the coaches corner, to ask experienced archers in dealing with his problem. He's had TP and he knows this isn't TP so you yelling that it is simply isn't helpful. So, to ask the same question of you, what gives you the almighty right to tell the OP that he's wrong and that it is TP?


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## TNMAN (Oct 6, 2009)

Several possible causes for holding low.

https://vimeo.com/5420018


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

merlinron said:


> Nuts & Bolts,....I shoot targets like that all summer long in a fixed blade broadhead league,...have for years,.... rough terrain,...always out of position, unmarked yardage, up hills ,down hills,(very hilly, densely wooded course doesn't have extreme hill shots, but steep enough that you can have trouble shooting them) and a different course every week because different people set the course every week, so different in yardage and different in presentation every week.... what's the big deal about it ?. the shots on our course don't get all the way out to 80 yards, but 50 and 60+ every week. it's plenty for the average shooter to deal with. the club has a history of hosting the NFAA Field State Championship several times and one or two National Championship years ago..


The OP is fine shooting out to 50 yards. He is having trouble at 80 yards (max distance for field archery). For IFAA (international field), the uphill shots are or can be very extreme. For IFAA, the downhill shots can be darn near vertical, shooting at your feet. So, since you don't shoot 80 yards, and don't shoot down at your feet....you have not shot IFAA.

This is Dudley shooting an EXTREME downhill shot, like you would find in IFAA.


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## CreedBratton (Feb 27, 2020)

That’s a fantastic video to watch...thanks for posting.


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## easton400 (Jun 17, 2007)

merlinron said:


> common form of target panic,....a mental block that will not let your release process take over the shot because you aiming process doesn't trust it run the shot correctly. the result is that you freeze low, so that your aiming process can say " look, I'm not ready yet" and have a reason to not turn over the shot to your release process. you have to teach your aiming process to trust your release process, by forgetting about shooting any distance and working up close, real close,...10 yards and nothing else,... where the bulls eye is big ad easy to stay in, so your aiming process can learn that where the dot belongs and to be satisfied enough t let your release process run. it will take time shooting many drills at 10 yards until the tendency to freeze is completely gone. then slowly working your way out to that 60 yard shot over the same drills you did at 10, but doing them at every 10 yard change in distance. them if you have any freeze up, any at all at any distance, do not let one single freeze up go uncorrected you have to go back to 10 yards and re- teach you aiming process to let go of the shot. the other part of this is to teach you shot that a let down, is a good thing rather than a failure by letting down every single time your shot is not running exactly like it should,.. with perfection. this all must be together and it takes a good while to overcome that freeze up problem, so if you are going to give it a try, consider that you will probably not do any shooting other than the drills for a whole shooting season. many guys that have the problem including me, do short " tune-up drills" of several shots at the 10 yard bunk before shooting every time they shoot. you will hear people say do blank bailing, but that advice is not what needs to be done. you have no problem running your release process when it runs, your problem is specifically a conflict about shot authority between your aiming process and your release process. they both know how to run just fine, but they both want complete control of the shot 100% of the time and that can not happen.


Very good post thank you. This is something I am struggling with. Got this copied and pasted to notes. Thanks again


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