# What can I do to stiffen my arrows some more?



## Last_Bastion (Dec 5, 2013)

The first thing I'd ask is why you are paper tuning for recurve shooting? That's a tuning method that applies more to compound (with a release aide)

Also, one piece of info that would help us out in answering your question is what is your DW, and what weight are you OTF? Also, are you shooting with a stabilizer at all, or shooting barebow/trad?


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## vinfoto (Feb 23, 2010)

Do u have enough spare points ? Do u have a adjustable button on your bow ?


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## rostov (Mar 12, 2015)

I'm following the Archery Book by Coach Kim, Hyung Tak, arrow tuning guide, 1st step. The next step would be bare shaft tuning, then distance tuning, horizontal/vertical tuning, before I get to dynamic selection of arrows. 

Yes. I have 2 more shibuya buttons (new), plus a spig button (used, but currently tuned for indoors X7's)


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## rostov (Mar 12, 2015)

Oh. Spare points. Sorry, I read that incorrectly.

Not really. All I have are the 100-110-120 steel points that are long. My clicker is at the edge already so I may have to pull/extend my body more to release if I put them in. But they are heavier points means the arrow becomes less stiff, right?


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Stiffen the dynamic spine on an X10... 

Let me count the ways (from most desireable, to least)

1) Adjust tiller bolts to reduce draw weight
1a) Reduce brace height
2) Use heavier string
3) Use pin nocks if you aren't already
4) Use plastic vanes (AAE Plastifletch Max 1.7 or 2" work well)
5) Use wraps under those vanes

All those things are reversible. The following are not:

6) Reduce point weight
7) Trim from the nock end of the shaft
8) Trim from the point end of the shaft.
9) Buy new arrows.

I'm probably forgetting a few as well.

when all the options are considered for setting up an X10, a person should have at LEAST a 4# range of draw weights to choose from. Maybe more.

Good luck.


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## chrstphr (Nov 23, 2005)

for what its worth, i have not found that reducing the break off point weight to do anything to weaken or stiffen an X10 arrow shaft. The amount you can break off is too small. Also having an 80grain point on an X10 will not fly as well out to 70 and 90 meters.

cutting X10 arrows from the back is the best choice of your options. 1/4 to ½ inch will really stiffen an arrow up. 


Chris


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## Bob Furman (May 16, 2012)

...


rostov said:


> Hi,
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

I agree with Chris, that breaking off the point won't show much difference.


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## Huntinsker (Feb 9, 2012)

You sure you're not just getting a false weak tear from fletching contact or are you doing this with bareshafts?


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## vinfoto (Feb 23, 2010)

Show US the paper tear if u can ?


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## rostov (Mar 12, 2015)

Hi,

Thank you very much for your replies. Looks like I'll have to trim off from the back as the next resort.

I'll post up pictures of the tear(s) when I get back home (at work now). I intend to follow up with a confirmation with a bare shaft testing thereafter so I'll post some pics on that as well?


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## dchan (Jun 29, 2004)

add string weight.. IF you are using tie on nock locators, switch to brass nock points.
add an additional layer of serving over your current center serving. Or switch to more strands and change your nocks.
switch to beiter out nocks (IIRC they are heavier than standard pins)

Other ways to add tail weight include heat shrink tubing. Duct tape (same as wraps) longer plastic vanes (try 2.5" low profiles) they add weight without adding much drag,. 

As John points out, 

Cutting arrows from the back is a one way trip. Cutting arrows is a one way trip.

DC


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## dchan (Jun 29, 2004)

Oh yeah, adding stabilization weights may help too if you are light on the stabilizers and shooting recurve (assuming it doesn't affect form and endurance)

DC


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## dchan (Jun 29, 2004)

BTW 1.5" tear left is not too terrible for a recurve shooter. I would check your bare shaft flight and patterns


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## Mika Savola (Sep 2, 2008)

Forget paper tuning on recurve/finger release. Use bare shafts


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## ShooterPhill (Feb 23, 2015)

Mika Savola said:


> Forget paper tuning on recurve/finger release. Use bare shafts


+1, I always felt like this step could be skipped all together as most people end up spending WAY to much time analyzing paper tear patterns (at least at my club). I would say that if you feel like you can generally hold 8-ring size grps at 18m (on a 40cm face) then just go ahead to bare shaft tuning.

Also, if you are concerned with being able to reach 90m then I would suggest going to A/C/E's rather than X10's. A/C/E's are considerably lighter and may give you that extra distance at 90m without having to pull your sight bar back.


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## rostov (Mar 12, 2015)

Apologies: right after posting my question I went out bare shaft tuning, and returned home to have my PC died on me (damned motherboard got too aged I guess).

Nonetheless, the tear picture:

Paper tear

Several sequence of events happened after doing the paper tuning:

1) I screwed in the Shibuya DX spring all the way in until I could hardly move the spring: maybe like 2mm if I really try hard

2) Then went out bare shaft testing without more paper tunings (as suggested by a few here). At 20m they indicated that I needed to tighten somemore, which I was unable to do.

3) I then wound out one full tuen per bolt to reduce poundage (thus speed?) by 1 pound overall, and the bare shafts tuned fine.

4) Days later last night I received more Shibuya DX buttons that I ordered for my sons' recurves. My shibuya DX was 2nd hand, and looking at the new kit arriving I realized they came installed with medium and had soft and hard springs as extras, meaning: *** did I have? Took it apart....mediums.

5) Today I changed a new DX to a hard spring and configured it with paper tuning. I could afford to wind back the tiller bolts to add another 1#, and get decent holes via paper tuning. This afternoon when the weather holds steady I will bareshaft tune like the devil, but the nice thing about having a hard spring on is that I now have > 2mm of plunger to play around.

So yeah, thanks for all the advice. None of the destructive measures were taken (e.g. cut arrows, change points), just a silly error on my part not checking what spring I had on my 2nd hand button. Still, I may be approaching maximum possible stiffness for my 700 spines on the kstorm 34#'s, but for now it'll do for my upcoming outdoor nats; thereafter I hope to see some of you in Vegas (drop me a message) while I shop for 600 spine x10's 

p.s. I have ACE's that are a lot perfect but my first son is using them for his BB outdoor nats. I rather he get better results than myself

p.p.s. Ok. Noted re: 8-ring size groups at 18m/40cm . My average indoor is now 52 per 6-arrow end. The problem is I don't quite have easy access to indoors no more (it's off season) and outdoors is so damned dependent on the lousy weather. 

Thank you for all your advice. I'll be keeping all these notes for future reference.


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## chrstphr (Nov 23, 2005)

Plunger is not used to stiffen or weaken an arrow shaft. Tiller bolts on the riser are for that. Plunger is used to move group and change group size.

What you tune with the plunger at 20 yards will not work for longer ranges. 


Hard spring would be for heavier arrow shafts than a 700 or 600 spine. 


Give or take
Light spring, 1000,900,800 spine
Medium spring 700,600,550,500 spine
Hard spring 450,410,380 spine

Chris


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## rostov (Mar 12, 2015)

Noted with much thanks. I will reduce it back to the mediums, and reduce poundage as much as possible. Currently not yet min for the kaya's and I'm pulling 37# @ 28 for limbs that are rated 34# , and re tune bare shaft @ 20m.


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## dchan (Jun 29, 2004)

Since it's indoor season, if your bare shafts are grouping with your fletched arrows and you are getting tight groups, Why not just leave it alone for now. Do a clearance check just to be sure and leave it alone.. If you are happy with the DW and shooting well, just go shoot. Just because you are outside the "norm" as far as spring tension, or which spring, or if it's spine weak a little who cares as long as it's shooting well and you are comfortable and confident in the way it's shooting.

Forget about getting a perfect "on paper" tune. As mentioned by many. After most tune for tight groups, if they shoot a bare shaft it rarely shoots with the fletched group. Fix the outdoor problem when you get to that season. By then you may be looking to change arrows anyway.


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## rostov (Mar 12, 2015)

It's New Zealand here, so it's summer, and therefore the season for outdoors. My Nationals are in 3 weeks time. 

I'm about to enter the next weeks shooting everyday so ok, I'll try, for the first week, all scenarios to see which one yields the tightest group, then stick with it. Cheers.


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## zal (May 1, 2007)

If you use Kim's method, he stresses that paper tune is just to get a starting point, and to move quickly to bareshaft tuning. If I remember correctly (its been years since I've been in Kim's seminars) it was more to do with checking clearance and release variation.

Also, I always use Shibuya's stiff spring for any bow above 40#. Mediums range works for something like 34-40# and soft for kids bows. You need to end up in spring tension where you can still adjust bareshaft from weak to stiff with button to actually get proper grouping out of them.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

> Since it's indoor season, if your bare shafts are grouping with your fletched arrows and you are getting tight groups, Why not just leave it alone for now. Do a clearance check just to be sure and leave it alone..


Winner


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## dchan (Jun 29, 2004)

The suggestion still stands. Check your bare shaft at a few distances. If its pretty close and a walk back results in no windage change, just leave it alone. Just because it's not "textbook" as far as spring strength, it does not mean it won't work well for you.

DC


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## rostov (Mar 12, 2015)

Ok, done. Spent 3 hours out there starting with bare shafts (hard spring and adjustments) and it grouped well 20m. Spent 1.5 hours doing walk back 20m/25m/30m/35m/40m/45m/50m (adjusting plunger position 1/8th at a time, as suggested by Kim) ... I think I did 6 rounds. Then went on to sight in for WA1440 (30m, 50m, 70m 90m). Sunny day, wind between 15

Very happy to say that none of groups of 6's needed any windage adjustments!


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## lksseven (Mar 21, 2010)

rostov said:


> Ok, done. Spent 3 hours out there starting with bare shafts (hard spring and adjustments) and it grouped well 20m. Spent 1.5 hours doing walk back 20m/25m/30m/35m/40m/45m/50m (adjusting plunger position 1/8th at a time, as suggested by Kim) ... I think I did 6 rounds. Then went on to sight in for WA1440 (30m, 50m, 70m 90m). Sunny day, wind between 15
> 
> Very happy to say that none of groups of 6's needed any windage adjustments!


Congrats. That's a lot of hard work


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