# 40# Bow Penetration Test.



## Curve1 (Nov 25, 2009)

Flyboy, you're test proved what a lot of folks already knew and a lot of folks just dont believe.
I've killed and seen too many deer killed with 40-45 lb. bows.
Thanks for sharing the info......interesting. But, you make me envious with you're Stallion, __. I wish I still had mine, an awsome bow.


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## WindWalker (Jan 23, 2005)

There was a time when 40# and 45# recurves were common draw-weights bowhunters used. Much of the penetration efficiency is a result of the right heads vs. the bow and a well-tuned rig. Then too, close shots was the rule of the day.

Though "Flyboy's" tests may not be thoroughly scientific, the results are still credible. If you can obtain that type of penetration in solid objects, consider that in game the broadhead is penetrating pliable and lubricated tissue.

As for bone; using a *45#* 1-piece recurve, shooting a heavy glass shaft mounted with a a 6-blade coned-tip Wasp, the head penetrated half of it's length into a Buck's spine.


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## Two Blade (Jul 13, 2008)

Drawing to 30" is a big help. :darkbeer:


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## Curve1 (Nov 25, 2009)

Windwalker, most of the bows I remember seeing in the stores and shops in the 70's were mostly 40-45 lbs.
Once in a while I'd see a 55 lb. bow , a lot of deer were killed with 40-45 lb...........of course you already knew that.


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## Flyboy718 (May 20, 2008)

*Update...*

Decided to try all same specs as above from 15 yards with a now dull Magnus Stinger on some 3/4" sanded pine. 1 1/8" penetration with two back to back shots.


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## trapperDave (Mar 12, 2005)

now do it with a single bevel


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## Flyboy718 (May 20, 2008)

*Next test...*

Here is my next test subject....using same specs as above with the exception that I had to change to 145 grain First Cut Broadheads the arrow now weighs a total of 405 grains and probably has a FOC around 15 -17% now. Pulling about 41 -42 pounds at 30" and the shots taken from 15 yards. What do you think will happen? Destroy the arrow? Stick in the block? I took two shots at it. I will post the pics soon.:darkbeer:


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## airwolf (Jul 28, 2005)

*nice tests*

interesting to see that.
and I was curious about the gumption of a 40 lbs


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## airwolf (Jul 28, 2005)

depends, is it a concrete or cinder block ?


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## Flyboy718 (May 20, 2008)

Yes, that is a concrete cinder block.


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## Perceval (Nov 25, 2008)

When i was young , i've taken a lot of red river hog's , river antelope and many small animals ( never lost one ) shooting a 40# bear kodiak TD with bear razorheads ...many shot were very close and maybe my draw lenght was shorten a bit while snapshooting and string was dacron .
I can't remember the arrow specs but they were made with fiberglass .
it wasn't the fastest bow out there and i'm sure your stallion is way faster but it was dead quiet and pretty accurate .

40-45# is sufficient for a lot of games when properly set up .

Btw I'm a Flyboy too :wink:


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## LongStick64 (Aug 29, 2009)

Can you do a follow up test with a 3 blade head. It's been my experience that a 2 blade head on a low weight bow outperforms a 3 blade head.


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## Flyboy718 (May 20, 2008)

LongStick64 said:


> Can you do a follow up test with a 3 blade head. It's been my experience that a 2 blade head on a low weight bow outperforms a 3 blade head.


Sure! I need to fletch up some more arras though...I have ran out of fletched shafts. I am very interested myself, as my thought process is that the three blades produce a better hole with better blood trail....I have some Magnus 125grain Snuffers to waste, we will try those first and then maybe some 100 grain Muzzy 4-blade and finally some 100 grain Thunderheads...any ideas for materials to try to penetrate?


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## LongStick64 (Aug 29, 2009)

For a reasonable comparison use the same materials.


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## Flyboy718 (May 20, 2008)

*Concrete Cinderblock Results*

Same original specs: 15 yards. 41 - 42# at 30" draw except 145 grain head to bring total arrow weight to around 400 grains. Here are the results with 145 grain First Cut two-blade head. Both shots penetrated exactly 1/2" into the concrete cinderblock. Surprisingly the only damage to the Easton Excel carbon arrow was at the nock end of the arrow right where the nock inserts into the shaft busted. The nock shot all the way straight back to me at about mach 2 on both shots.


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## Raider2000 (Oct 21, 2003)

Sweet man, I was at a 3D & field shoot a month ago & made a very tired bad shot at a 40 yard field target, lets just say the 1 X 4 backing that I hit with my 440gr. field pointed GT Trad has a nice 80% pass through hole in it from my 51* @ 27.5" Zona Recurve.

These Traditional bows have more omph than many of the Compounders want to admit.


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## Flier (Jul 16, 2010)

*awsome*

This is an awsome thread. I'm lookin forward to the 2 blade/3 blade comparisons.
My thought is a two blade will go further due to less resistance in mass due to less arrow head material. But I'm far from an expert.

good stuff


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## flywise (Jul 13, 2010)

I like this thread, it gives me ammo for the conversations with friends who cant believe a traditional bow is a good weapon for deer.


By the way, I'm a flyboy also


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## Perceval (Nov 25, 2008)

flywise said:


> I like this thread, it gives me ammo for the conversations with friends who cant believe a traditional bow is a good weapon for deer.
> 
> By the way, I'm a flyboy also


one more ! :cheers: ....

I had equal penetration shooting a 60# DXT with 400 grains arrows and slick-tricks and my 62# Border recurve shooting 750 grains EFOC arrows and two blades outback supreme FE .....momentum ! :darkbeer:


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## van (May 3, 2003)

*duh*

Now that’s a convincing test, which proves a 40-45 lb bow just isn’t enough to hunt concrete cinder blocks.


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## Flyboy718 (May 20, 2008)

van said:


> Now that’s a convincing test, which proves a 40-45 lb bow just isn’t enough to hunt concrete cinder blocks.


LOL...I will just have to let them walk:darkbeer:


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## DeathByCactus (May 26, 2010)

I think this thread proves that your not a real bow hunter unless you hunt with a 175lb war bow made from the parts of a still living unicorn...  

^ That was sarcasm, in a good way.


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## Night Wing (Feb 4, 2009)

WindWalker said:


> There was a time when 40# and 45# recurves were common draw-weights bowhunters used. Much of the penetration efficiency is a result of the right heads vs. the bow and a well-tuned rig. Then too, close shots was the rule of the day.


The above statement is spot on during the time of the mid 60's. This is why I've never had hunting bows above 44 pounds. My bows now are 42# and 37#


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## nyamazan (Jan 31, 2008)

Perceval said:


> one more ! :cheers: ....
> 
> I had equal penetration shooting a 60# DXT with 400 grains arrows and slick-tricks and my 62# Border recurve shooting 750 grains EFOC arrows and two blades outback supreme FE .....momentum ! :darkbeer:


In my limited hunting experience I also have learned that momentum FAR outweighs KE in most species.
I'm using a real, and I mean real, slow longbow (55# shooting 655gr @ 155 fps.), but far prefer the slow heavy arrow to the faster lightweight one.


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## Flyboy718 (May 20, 2008)

*Next test....METAL DRUM!*

OK guys...this is starting to get really expensive. I have been through at least half a dozen arrows and broadheads, but it is fun and interesting to see what will happen and the results. 

This next test involves a small metal drum, not sure of what type of metal it is made of, appears to be of the same type and thickness of a regular 55 gallon drum. Nevertheless, it is strong metal and is tougher/harder than anything a deer can offer to us.

Specs: 40# @ 29" Quinn Stallion Classic drawn to 30", so approximately 42#.
Arrow: 31 1/2" Easton ST Excel .500 with 100 grain Magnus Stinger, total arrow weight is about 365 grains. The distance is 15 yards.

*Notes*
Out of 4 shots the arrow penetrated all 4 times and hit the opposite side of the barrel also. On two of the shots the tip of the broadhead actually made a small pinhole penetration on the opposite side of the barrel! I tried to take pics of that but they wouldn't show up. The Easton arrow is surprisingly strong for a carbon arrow! It withstood three shots and on the fourth recieved a few nicks and stratches compromising the integrity of the shaft probably due to the metal scraping the sides of the shaft after the head penetrated. 
I tell you what...that Magnus Stinger is one tough cookie! It withstood four shots a metal barrel! No bending or breaking! Now, the blade is ever so slightly loose from the furrel and the blades are wore but I think I am sold on this head. Pics of the broadhead will follow shortly.


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## Flyboy718 (May 20, 2008)

*Broadhead pics...*

Here are the pics of the two blade Magnus Stinger after going through the metal drum 4 times...the only damage done is the blade is ever so slightly loose and of course the blades are slightly chipped. No bending or curling at all. Tough heads!


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## madarchery (May 28, 2003)

Glad to see your using your head. Keeping cost down using them magnus. Now ya can do more tests with the free replacements:wink:


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## Tajue17 (Aug 18, 2005)

the guy who used to make the stotler bows,, Jerry Dishion told me he killed his first 17 deer with a 37# selfbow and port orford arrows,,,, if the 2-blade broadhead is sharp as a scapel and the arrows flew perfect even a 20 pounder would kill one too.


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## BowmanJay (Jan 1, 2007)

Curve1 said:


> Flyboy, you're test proved what a lot of folks already knew and a lot of folks just dont believe.
> I've killed and seen too many deer killed with 40-45 lb. bows.
> Thanks for sharing the info......interesting. But, you make me envious with you're Stallion, __. I wish I still had mine, an awsome bow.


Couldnt agree more and I am still doing it!


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## Canuck71 (Jul 7, 2009)

*Fantastic Thread!!!!!!!*

This is great stuff!! I just bought a 40lb Samick sage and am VERY glad to see how these tests are working out....might have to pick up some of those Magnus heads!

On another note - these tests are somewhat similar to what Grim Reaper broadheads did in a controlled lab to show the strength of their mechanical heads. They shot a variety of different broadheads of the same weight from the same bow and same arrow combination. I do not have the link, but Google may show it somewhere...I think it is on YouTube (steel drum broadhead test). Anyhow - some of the mechanical heads blew right through both sides of the drum - not sure on the poundage of the bow, but I know for sure it was MUCH heavier than a 40lb trad bow!

Your test on the drum shows EXCELLENT penetration - easily as much as some of the popular mechanical heads shot from a 60lb compound bow at a similar target!!! That is truly something else!!

Thanks for the hard work and the excellent pics!


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## Flyboy718 (May 20, 2008)

I wish I could afford to do more testing on different broadheads, but I am running out of shafts and time due to hunting season being 61 days away.


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## rattus58 (Jul 9, 2007)

My rubber blunts penetrate plywood pretty easily and also a strand of straw can penetrate through a telephone pole in a good wind so I'm really not impressed by shooting through things much since it can also be shown a broadhead can penetrate through a can of sand where a rifle bullet fails.

What DID interest me though was that you look at the entrance cut and then notice where the broadhead ended up rotation-wise. Clearly the arrow kept turning.

Much Aloha... :beer:


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## Snuffer (Oct 15, 2002)

Sure wish you could have tried the Snuffers because those are the 2 broadheads I am torn between. Buy the way, I have shot thru the last 4 deer I have shot at with Stinger 4 blades. When I shot compounds, I always shot Snuffers with the same results.


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## rattus58 (Jul 9, 2007)

Snuffer said:


> Sure wish you could have tried the Snuffers because those are the 2 broadheads I am torn between. Buy the way, I have shot thru the last 4 deer I have shot at with Stinger 4 blades. When I shot compounds, I always shot Snuffers with the same results.



Snuffers break bone and leave awesome blood and are sharpenable enough to kill quickly.

Much Aloha... :beer:


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## warped Arrow (Sep 20, 2005)

Hey Fly, did I send you that head to try out? I cant remember......

WA

PS, those that your shooting, they have the replaceable main blades, right?


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## DeerHuntin79923 (Dec 15, 2007)

Great Post!!!


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## Flyboy718 (May 20, 2008)

Snuffer said:


> Sure wish you could have tried the Snuffers because those are the 2 broadheads I am torn between. Buy the way, I have shot thru the last 4 deer I have shot at with Stinger 4 blades. When I shot compounds, I always shot Snuffers with the same results.


I tried a couple snuffers, I don't have any pics but they didn't fair so well on the 3/4" plywood and I also shot one into a 55 gallon blue plastic drum and it hit high and one blade contacted the top rim and bent the blade on contact. I still have some and will shoot them through the metal barrel so stay tuned and we will see what happens...


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## dx2 (Aug 25, 2007)

I just picked up some Snuffer 125's for my "slow" compound (232 fps with a 380 grain arra and 15% FOC)....I haven't shot them yet but hoping they do well. Using Blazer vanes now but have been wanting to experiment with helical feathers 3" or 4".

Thanks for doing the tests and looking forward to seeing the next set.

Edit: your fletching looks like 3" or 4" feathers fletched straight or slightly offset?


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## Flyboy718 (May 20, 2008)

dx2 said:


> I just picked up some Snuffer 125's for my "slow" compound (232 fps with a 380 grain arra and 15% FOC)....I haven't shot them yet but hoping they do well. Using Blazer vanes now but have been wanting to experiment with helical feathers 3" or 4".
> 
> Thanks for doing the tests and looking forward to seeing the next set.
> 
> Edit: your fletching looks like 3" or 4" feathers fletched straight or slightly offset?


Snuffers will be just fine for deer, I have shot two hogs with them with my compound and no problems, just a massive blood trail. I am using 4" right helical feathers.


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## dx2 (Aug 25, 2007)

Thanks bud. I shot them last night and they grouped pretty darn good at 30 yards. They hiss in flight which I don't care for, but they have a 1 1/4" cut so I'm looking forward to seeing what kind of damage they do to game.


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## Flyboy718 (May 20, 2008)

dx2 said:


> Thanks bud. I shot them last night and they grouped pretty darn good at 30 yards. They hiss in flight which I don't care for, but they have a 1 1/4" cut so I'm looking forward to seeing what kind of damage they do to game.


I agree! They whistle pretty loud in flight, I thought it was my feathers, but it's the head...that is the only thing I don't like about em.


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## rattus58 (Jul 9, 2007)

Flyboy718 said:


> I agree! They whistle pretty loud in flight, I thought it was my feathers, but it's the head...that is the only thing I don't like about em.


I've not been able to hear any whistles (or maybe no one is whistling at me) for a long time (30 plus years of flying) but it doesn't seem to affect the snuffed arrow getting to the hearts and lungs of acceptable quarry. Blood trails for sure with snuffers. 

Aloha... :beer:


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## ksdblack (Mar 11, 2009)

I guess this thread answers my question i posted this morning on the Bowhunter forum:

Correction - I have 45 pound limbs shooting true at 29" DL at 48 pounds. It is the 55 pound limbs that were recommended to me. Arrows i am shooting are - GT Traditional, 3555. Broadheads i have been shooting are Zwickey Black Diamond 2 Edge 125 Gr.

Same question - Is this sufficient for a 30 yard shot on western Muley? 

Any recommendations on arrow or broadhead? Or; is this set up sufficient?


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## screamingeagle (Sep 12, 2004)

ksdblack said:


> I guess this thread answers my question i posted this morning on the Bowhunter forum:
> 
> Correction - I have 45 pound limbs shooting true at 29" DL at 48 pounds. It is the 55 pound limbs that were recommended to me. Arrows i am shooting are - GT Traditional, 3555. Broadheads i have been shooting are Zwickey Black Diamond 2 Edge 125 Gr.
> 
> ...


In my opinion, I don't think your arrow is heavy enough. I bet its only about 420 grs. I prefer at least 450 with 500 or 10 grains a pound even better. But, I am sure guys have done it with that light of an arrow so it'll probably work just fine.


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## Tajue17 (Aug 18, 2005)

the best thing is when your done testing just send those heads back to Mike for a new set,, hee hee...

I know the 40 is fine but I'm impressed when the broadheads can take the abuse


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## airwolf (Jul 28, 2005)

Flyboy718 said:


> Yes, that is a concrete cinder block.


its either a concrete or a cinder block cant be both which one is it?


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## Flyboy718 (May 20, 2008)

QUOTE=airwolf;1058480893]its either a concrete or a cinder block cant be both which one is it?[/QUOTE]

It's a block made out of concrete bud


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## Flyboy718 (May 20, 2008)

Just wanted to do a little update to this testing thread...got my first Trad deer with the 40# @ 29" Stallion Classic, I am pulling it to 30" and probably getting about 43# out of it. I used Easton Excel .500 shaft cut to 
30 1/2" with 100 grain Magnus two blade up front, giving overall weight about 361 grains and 8.4 gpp.


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## Flyboy718 (May 20, 2008)

An update to this thread and my second trad kill with the Magnus Stingers. Bow specs: 40# @ 29" Quinn Stallion Classic, about 42# at my draw using a 30" Easton 2114 shaft with 100 grain Magnus Stinger, total arrow weight is 450 grains and 10.8 gpp.


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## WindWalker (Jan 23, 2005)

Fly...you're a killing machine!


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## WindWalker (Jan 23, 2005)

Curve1:



> Windwalker, most of the bows I remember seeing in the stores and shops in the 70's were mostly 40-45 lbs.
> Once in a while I'd see a 55 lb. bow , a lot of deer were killed with 40-45 lb...........of course you already knew that.



Didn't read comment until old thread ressurected. Regardless of what (I) may know; that others also know the same is a confirmation. In this case, hopefully, new shooters starting out are being informed that it does not require a braced log to bring down game.


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## JNG (Sep 15, 2007)

But consider this- guys with short draws like me need to somehow figure out how to manhandle "braced logs" in order to be ethical in terms of momentum and energy. My 40# @28" recurve that I draw to 26-26.5" I'm sure would never be considered ethical to hunt whitetails with. With nothing in the string to slow it down, it propels a 404gr arrow @ about 152 fps. Barely 20 fpe. So the folks with 30" DL's probably would be fine since the powerstroke is so much longer, hence more speed/heavier arrow.


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## Flyboy718 (May 20, 2008)

JNG said:


> But consider this- guys with short draws like me need to somehow figure out how to manhandle "braced logs" in order to be ethical in terms of momentum and energy. My 40# @28" recurve that I draw to 26-26.5" I'm sure would never be considered ethical to hunt whitetails with. With nothing in the string to slow it down, it propels a 404gr arrow @ about 152 fps. Barely 20 fpe. So the folks with 30" DL's probably would be fine since the powerstroke is so much longer, hence more speed/heavier arrow.


I have a solution for your problem...in the evening sit down in a chair and get your wife to grab hold of your hand with both her hands and then place her foot in your arm pit and pull and release...do this about three sets of ten reps. Then swap arms and repeat. After about a month you should gain at least an inch of draw. 

Ahhh just kidding with you!! I think you have a great point for the short draw folks and low poundage...I think however you can make up for a good portion of the energy lost due to a short powerstroke by using a 'skinny string' like 8 strands of D97...you would be surprised how much energy that creates!


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

JNG - my 12 year old son took a Black Widow that was 30lbs at his 26" draw and killed a doe with a complete pass through - he was shooting carbon arrows with magnus broadheads - no added weight or anything like that. I don't know what they weighed because back then I did not own a grain scale - but the point is - the job was done just fine.


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## CaptJack (Apr 20, 2005)

*nice test*









15yds - a good sharp broadhead - and put it in the right place = dead animal
even a kid's 25# target bow will kill a whitetail 
but probably just pi_s off a decent sized hog


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## mtbikerwvu (Oct 9, 2011)

My first bow was a 45 pound Ben Pearson recurve and I shot it until the limb delammed on me after about 7 or 8 years. My dad bought at the same time a 58# recurve, do not remember the brand but it was impossible for me to shoot and he also quickly gave up. Ballistic gel with some suspended green rib bones in it might be a good test media. I once had the opportunity to shoot a reproduction foot bow and man that thing would bust stuff up. My friends dad built it and we found out the hard way that it would completely penetrate a barn! We got grounded for that one. LOL The barn it question was a least 75 yards away when we decided to see if we could hit it.


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## CaptJack (Apr 20, 2005)

VPA Terminators
the best broadhead on the market
no nonsense solid three bladed steel
(dealers- http://www.vparchery.com/dealers.php )

I still shoot aluminum, either 2018 or 2117 XX78 SuperSlams - 535grn+
can you say "thump"


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## Flyboy718 (May 20, 2008)

CaptJack said:


> VPA Terminators
> the best broadhead on the market
> no nonsense solid three bladed steel
> (dealers- http://www.vparchery.com/dealers.php )
> ...


Those are pretty sweet! I might give those a try.


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## Tajue17 (Aug 18, 2005)

VPA's are the best 3-blade out there,, these in the link are among the BEST 2-blade single bevel heads out there! 


http://www.centaurarchery.com/broadheadinfo.htm#broadhead-test-video


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## rayzor43 (Apr 8, 2011)

Yeah it surprises a lot of folks. We had a customer get a pass through with one of our 3 blade 175s on a 425lb bear with a 43lb recurve last year. I know of several young people shooting 40 lb compounds with our 3 blade 150 and 175gr heads on heavy arrows getting excellent results. I personally shoot 50# with 27" draw and like the 150s over the 125s because I get better penetration on targets. Always have had pass throughs with both weights on game though.


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## rogbo (Jan 2, 2004)

Tajue17 said:


> VPA's are the best 3-blade out there,, these in the link are among the BEST 2-blade single bevel heads out there!


Centaur's a wicked looking head but VPA makes one hell of a 2 blade as well. Least wise the African critters thought so with a bow that was barely pulling 50 lbs.


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## rayzor43 (Apr 8, 2011)

Our 2 blade has only been out for a few months. It double bevel sharpened and available in 150, 175, 200, 250 and 300gr. I try not to hijack thread of other broadhead folks but I think pretty sure this more about low poundage penetration rather than the Magnus heads in the posted test, so here is a pic of our 2 bladers. Ironically they are being called Penetrators.


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## rayzor43 (Apr 8, 2011)

There are some pretty good tests on the 250s and 300s posted out there on the web.


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## rayzor43 (Apr 8, 2011)

I'd like to have some pics for the gallery on the VPA website of anything taken with our 2 blades (or any of our products).


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## rogbo (Jan 2, 2004)

PM sent Ray


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## centershot (Sep 13, 2002)

Cool tests, enjoyed your post. Simply amazing how tough carbon arrows are on straight on hits. Glancing blows are a different story.


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## rattus58 (Jul 9, 2007)

rayzor43 said:


> Our 2 blade has only been out for a few months. It double bevel sharpened and available in 150, 175, 200, 250 and 300gr. I try not to hijack thread of other broadhead folks but I think pretty sure this more about low poundage penetration rather than the Magnus heads in the posted test, so here is a pic of our 2 bladers. Ironically they are being called Penetrators.
> View attachment 1193211


Are the ferrules tapered for glue ons on some versions?


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## rayzor43 (Apr 8, 2011)

Sorry, at this time there are no glue on versions of the 2 blade models. There may be some in the future. We make 160, 190 and 250 gr glue on 3 blades.


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## rattus58 (Jul 9, 2007)

rayzor43 said:


> Sorry, at this time there are no glue on versions of the 2 blade models. There may be some in the future. We make 160, 190 and 250 gr glue on 3 blades.


  cool... :beer:


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## Flyboy718 (May 20, 2008)

rayzor43 said:


> I'd like to have some pics for the gallery on the VPA website of anything taken with our 2 blades (or any of our products).


Send me some 150's and I will put them through an animal.


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## bowhuntermitch (May 17, 2005)

To add to the thread, I plan on putting an arrow through a deer this weekend (MN rifle opener). Im pulling close to 29.5"-30.0" on a Martin X-200 at 44-45#. 

Shooting a full length Axis 400 with a 75 grain brass insert and a 125 grain head. They are flying like "darts". Magnus 125's are super sharp and going to deflate some lungs!


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

good luck - hope you get one


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