# Asa Outlaw Division



## whitetail99 (Feb 1, 2003)

Breaking news {to me}:embara:
http://www.miasaarchery.com/asa indoor.pdf


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## Kent Arms (May 27, 2005)

*Outlaw Class*

This Class is a Michigan Federation class ONLY!!!!! Not a pro/am events!!!!

goto www.miasaarchery.com for more info!!!


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## FoggDogg (Jul 9, 2002)

*Michigan is Outlaw country!*

*Substantially* is a relative term, and it's only here in Michigan, so I'm not sure. I do know however that I'm excited about this class here in Michigan this year and suspect Mike Terrell will be watching this closely. And, if this goes well here, you could see it on the national level in a few years. So come on IBO'ers...run what ya' brung!


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## 2putt4par (Mar 24, 2006)

*I'm not sure it would make any difference*

Believe it or not, I have never seen a bow chrono'd at a shoot, so I doubt it would make any difference. People are shooting too fast already. Granted I shoot NFAA and local stuff, but I doubt that there is a lot of speed checking going on anywhere.


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## pinkfletch (Sep 16, 2002)

One of the clubs in our local coalition wanted an "outlaw class" because they said almost all of their members hunting setups were over the 280 limit and wouldn't participate in the shoots...so we instituted the class and most of their members still didn't come to the shoots, even theirs. We still have the class, but it is not the most popular one. Bowhunter is still the top attendance.


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## cameron (Sep 15, 2005)

ASA would gain at least one more shooter if it had the outlaw class!:thumbs_up


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## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

*Question*

Why just ask this of ASA.

IBO doesnt allow you to shoot the fastest bow. They have limits. Believe its 5grns per pound. 
DB


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## jwshooter11 (Aug 18, 2006)

2putt4par said:


> Believe it or not, I have never seen a bow chrono'd at a shoot, so I doubt it would make any difference. People are shooting too fast already. Granted I shoot NFAA and local stuff, but I doubt that there is a lot of speed checking going on anywhere.


I have not only seen bows checked at ASA, I have seen people disqualified over 1 fps. because they got too close to the overall limit and something stretched!


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## pinshooter (Jun 11, 2004)

I think they should, or bump up the speed limit to 300fps. Either way I won't be there due to my class being known distance and the shoots are farther than I'm willing to travel. But over all I think bumping the speed up is a good thing because it will trickle down to our local clubs that go by asa rules.


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## Spoon13 (Feb 20, 2007)

Our local coalition has adopted an Outlaw Class for this year. Some want to see what it will do. 50 yd max distance, shoot what you bring. Most of the shooters will probably still be ASA legal but it was created to entice a few IBO shooters and maybe a Pro or two to shoot at our clubs. We'll see how it goes.


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## allxs (Mar 10, 2005)

jwshooter11 said:


> I have not only seen bows checked at ASA, I have seen people disqualified over 1 fps. because they got too close to the overall limit and something stretched!



JW,
You saw this last year? .... cause I didnt see a mandatory Chron check anywhere at the ASA Pro-ams in 07. I hope they are more diligent in 08!


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## Elf Friend (Mar 1, 2003)

Even though there is no way that I can get my equipment to shoot faster than 284 I voted yes. Why not get some of these IBO people involved. As far as range officals doing mandatory crono checks, I have shot about 12-15 ASA national shoots and have only seen range officals doing crono checks at one shoot. They where there at the end of the shoot and any person who shot a score over 190 for the day was checked. Two where DQed just on my range. Personally, the risk is not worth it. Imagine, you have one of your best days ever only to be DQed becouse your bow is shooting 290 fps. I mean really, what do you gain? You misjudge a target by two yards: whats that 2-3 illigal fps going to do for you?


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

whitetail99 said:


> Do you think ASA membership would substantially increase with a no speed limit division called the Outlaw class?


A resounding; "No."

You started out your Post on the wrong foot right off the bat by the "boo-who" thing. Next, your lack of experience can't absorb the fact that the vast majority of bow setups out there do not come close to all out speed. Can a lot of bows be made to break the rule maximum of 288 fps (not 285 as someone put)? Yes, but these people are put in the same situation that you (evidently) are, having to re-do their bow setups.

Another AT member in here ran a chronograph at his club and found the same thing I did, 1 or 2 shooters breaking 290 and maybe 1 shooter breaking 300 fps. Okay, we don't know where you speed demons are.

It is you, sir, and people like you that make up the "bow-who" crowd because you don't want to comply with rules and evidently can't figure out the ease of having a bow going both ways, within rules of ASA and the NFAA and unrestricted speed of the IBO. By the way, the largest class of shooters that pay the way at the vast majority of down home clubs are in the Free Style BowHunter class (fixed sights), not the unlimited class (movable sights). Basically, it's pretty easy to have a dual setup. One set of arrows for within rules and one set for breaking the 288 fps barrier and then two fixed pin sights or 2 sets of cheat sheets for movable sights (I have). 

Another issue is at hand that maybe you are not aware of. It is said and said many times that "they" (whoever they are) want only one Champion - One man, One woman. Looking at such, who do you see promoted the most? The Top Pros or the local joes who won in the other classes?

Have your Thread pulled and start over. Setup another Thread as a pole to start the workings of a petition for such Outlaw Class and I'll gladly vote for it and I will sign the petition should it come about. With the number of classes are out there another won't hurt. 

Hoyt ProElite - target - 263 fps - 3D - 281 fps
Hoyt UltraTec - target - 275 fps - 3D - 286 fps (have pushed it to 300 fps)
Hoyt PowerTec - never set for target - turned down - 28 1/2" draw, 62 pound draw weight - 285 fps - kept within IBO specs - 292 fps - high of 305 fps.
Hoyt MagnaTec - 3D and hunting - 270 fps.


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

Daniel Boone said:


> Why just ask this of ASA.
> IBO doesnt allow you to shoot the fastest bow. They have limits. Believe its 5grns per pound. DB


IBO is the fastest kept within the safety realm. You wish to break safety rules?

And no, 5 grs is not the limit per sa. With 5 grs of arrow or more per pound of draw weight there is no speed restriction. Bows with arrows weighing lessing than 5 grs per pound of draw weight are restricted to the 280 +/- 3% for error.


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## Po_Boy (Jun 3, 2006)

Daniel Boone said:


> Why just ask this of ASA.
> 
> IBO doesnt allow you to shoot the fastest bow. They have limits. Believe its 5grns per pound.
> DB


But at 5 GPP you can get well over 285 even at 60 lbs. My buddy had to turn his Katera down to 54 lbs just so he could be legal with his Fatboys.


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## DRFrance (Feb 4, 2006)

*No likely to grow the membership*

Sorry, I don't believe the membership would grow much.

I'm certain it would create an interesting shooting classification that many shooters who are already members might switch to.

Basically, you are cutting the pie one extra time to create the extra shooting category, and some classes will ultimately have a few less shooters and a bit less to win.

Hope it works though if we do it.


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## bhtr3d (Feb 13, 2004)

I agree with you Dfrance.... Make another class //people that already shoot, some would fill into that class. 

make another class ... so what? someone else can be another national champion? Sounding like NFAA  :wink:


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## jwshooter11 (Aug 18, 2006)

allxs said:


> JW,
> You saw this last year? .... cause I didnt see a mandatory Chron check anywhere at the ASA Pro-ams in 07. I hope they are more diligent in 08!


No, it was a couple of years ago! They set up a chrono and caught everybody coming off of 1 range. The other thing to consider is that if someone in your group is shooting a set-up that you think is too fast, let a range official know and they will be checked.


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

jwshooter11 said:


> No, it was a couple of years ago! They set up a chrono and caught everybody coming off of 1 range.


I heard of this before. One reply said someone was disqualified for 1 fps. Maybe he or she was, but the 1 fps, by the rules, must have come within the average of number of shots, 3 if I remember correctly. As such, you could have only 1 arrow make the average fps kill you if pushing the limit to begin with. 285 + 287 + 290 = 287 average and legal. 288 + 288 + 295 = 290 average and DQ'ed.


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## Spoon13 (Feb 20, 2007)

I am not for or against the idea. Me personally, I have a bow setup for ASA and that's it. I have a set of arrows I can use if I decide to shoot IBO but have never done so.

A point that I would like to make though is this. People will shoot ASA with the rules that are in place if they truely want to. If a person really wants to shoot an ASA shoot then they will make the proper modifications to shoot a legal bow. If they don't want to change thier setup, then they really don't want to shoot ASA. Don't blame ASA or any other organization for not modifying the rules to suit you. The rules are the rules. Adhere to them or don't get caught.


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## cameron (Sep 15, 2005)

If I can have one 3D bow set up that is legal for IBO and ASA, I will end up shooting both. So I say yes, you will see a membership increase due to opening the door to the speed bows.

I also think that EVERY shooter should have to go through the chrono. Just checking the shooters with the top scores is called discrimination, and is providing a level playing field for ALL competitors.


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## Kent Arms (May 27, 2005)

*Outlaw Class*

This class is only in the Michigan ASA Federation as far as i know.....The idea is to bring archers to a ASA shoot so they can see if they like to shoot 3d. not everyone can afford 2 bows or multipe arrow sizes. If a Archer wants to compete nationally in the ASA, they will have to adhere to ASA Pro/am rules.

At the State level all classes shoot the chrono. if you shoot over 288 u are dq'd. there is no AVG. 1 arrow 1 shot....the ASA speed limit is 280 fps +/- 3% for chrono vaiences. So if you push the limit....you might get burned.
Most Bowhunters shoot the bownovice class..thats a trophy only class this year at the michigan federation. 

not trying to divide any classes with the OUTLAW class, just trying to get more shooters. We need more archers to participate, not more reasons to keep people out. If u never shot a ASA how do you know if you like it or not? I like getting paid, If i shoot good enough!!!! come on down and give it a try.....:wink:

vince schultes
Michigan ASA State Director


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## bhtr3d (Feb 13, 2004)

SonnyThomas said:


> I heard of this before. One reply said someone was disqualified for 1 fps. Maybe he or she was, but the 1 fps, by the rules, must have come within the average of number of shots, 3 if I remember correctly. As such, you could have only 1 arrow make the average fps kill you if pushing the limit to begin with. 285 + 287 + 290 = 287 average and legal. 288 + 288 + 295 = 290 average and DQ'ed.



No, the rule reads as follows: ASA adhears to the maximum arrow speed in each compettion class as measured by the offical on-site chronographs, with a three percent (3%) margin for differences between chronographs. Refer to the section ''classes'' of these rules for maxium speed allowalbe in each class. Each competitor understands and agrees that they may be required to shoot through the designated on-site chronograph. Any arrow required to be shot through the chronograph during or after a tournement round that exceeds the maximum arrow speed for their class, plus three percent (3%) will result in the disqualification of that round's score: 
So, in reading this you have ONE shot ...best make it count.


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## cameron (Sep 15, 2005)

Kent Arms said:


> This class is only in the Michigan ASA Federation as far as i know.....The idea is to bring archers to a ASA shoot so they can see if they like to shoot 3d. not everyone can afford 2 bows or multipe arrow sizes. If a Archer wants to compete nationally in the ASA, they will have to adhere to ASA Pro/am rules.
> 
> At the State level all classes shoot the chrono. if you shoot over 288 u are dq'd. there is no AVG. 1 arrow 1 shot....the ASA speed limit is 280 fps +/- 3% for chrono vaiences. So if you push the limit....you might get burned.
> Most Bowhunters shoot the bownovice class..thats a trophy only class this year at the michigan federation.
> ...


This is a positive change for us Michiganders, and you will see a few new faces because of this "new" division because of it. Thank you for opening the door and placing the welcome mat.:thumbs_up


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## shamlin (Aug 18, 2007)

*Wow*



SonnyThomas said:


> A resounding; "No."
> 
> You started out your Post on the wrong foot right off the bat by the "boo-who" thing. Next, your lack of experience can't absorb the fact that the vast majority of bow setups out there do not come close to all out speed.
> It is you, sir, and people like you that make up the "bow-who" crowd because you don't want to comply with rules and evidently can't figure out the ease of having a bow going both ways, within rules of ASA and the NFAA and unrestricted speed of the IBO.
> ...


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## whitetail99 (Feb 1, 2003)

It seems the majority here get it. Yes I am having a little fun with the Boo-who crowd but none the less thats why I call them the Boo-who crowd. I do stand corrected and must say I do NOT believe that the Hunter classes would be eclipse by the Outlaw class. Nor any open class would exceed the numbers of the hunter class IBO,ASA or what ever group. Just that the Outlaw class will over time become more popular with open class shooters that are now at 285 groups.


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

bhtr3d said:


> No, the rule reads as follows: ASA adhears to the maximum arrow speed in each compettion class as measured by the offical on-site chronographs, with a three percent (3%) margin for differences between chronographs. Any arrow required to be shot through the chronograph during or after a tournement round that exceeds the maximum arrow speed for their class, plus three percent (3%) will result in the disqualification of that round's score.


Read rules again. I stand corrected. Thank you. Now to find where I got that 3 shot average.


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

shamlin said:


> SonnyThomas said:
> 
> 
> > A resounding; "No."
> ...


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## 6xbulls (Jul 11, 2005)

It would be kind of a cool class to have for those who love speed. Here in TX on the IBO state circuit, there was a chrono at every shoot for those who shot over a certain score. Seems that score was around 180 and above. I was chrono'd at all but one shoot. But, I shot the chrono by choice only after my arrows had been weighed. I always chose weight. My Hoyt Vulcan shot 287 at 65 lbs with a 407 gr arrow. The 287 fps was just too close to risk shooting through a chrono that may have been off enough to get me DQ'd. Since there will not be an IBO tournament circuit in TX this year, I'm shooting ASA for the first time. So, I have the choice of reducing my draw weight or adding more weight to my arrows. I'm thinking of dropping the weight by pound which should equate to about 3 fps and should keep me easily within the 280 fps +3%. I'm just not willing to travel, pay money to shoot, shoot well enough for a payout and get DQ'd for a single or couple fps over the 280 +3%. Better to play it by the rules. But, a speed freak class would be kinda cool to shoot from time to time for fun. Maybe it will happen. Good luck on your quest.

6xbulls


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## Slice (Jul 20, 2005)

It would be a great class. Not everyone wants to shoot 600 grain arrows out of a 40 pound bow to be within the required speed.


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## djkillaz (Apr 14, 2005)

whitetail99 said:


> It seems the majority here get it. Yes I am having a little fun with the Boo-who crowd but none the less thats why I call them the Boo-who crowd. I do stand corrected and must say I do NOT believe that the Hunter classes would be eclipse by the Outlaw class. Nor any open class would exceed the numbers of the hunter class IBO,ASA or what ever group. Just that the Outlaw class will over time become more popular with open class shooters that are now at 285 groups.


 I agree. If we can get just a few guy's from IBO and the local Maso to shoot an ASA event. It's all the better. Turn outs at these events are getting lower all the time. Someone actually who really cares if the sport grows is what we need. We are all archers.... its all about growing and having fun!! To take the chance on a new class like the Out Law class is great. Though I wont shoot it cause I dont have a burner bow. I want to see more people get into the sport. And the comments that there are few fast bows at shoots.... The new bows that are out in 2007-2008 are fast. Almost every manufacturer has come out with there version of a speed bow. And speed bows are a hot seller now. Its the perfect time to get those guy's and gals with their speed bows to shoot some 3d.
I dont care if they have a newborn class if it will help the sport grow. All of us love archery on this site or we wouldnt be here. We all need to help it grow.....


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

djkillaz said:


> The new bows that are out in 2007-2008 are fast. Almost every manufacturer has come out with there version of a speed bow.


Just to bring things to light: This being 2008, 8 years ago we had speed bows nailing 325 and faster - Mathews comes to mind with 330 fps. Hoyt was another with 328 fps. Darton had the Maverick and it cranked pretty fast. In fact, there were a bunch of bows that hit 315 fps and faster.

Get a straight forward Poll going, get a petition together and submit it to the proper channels of the ASA. I don't know if ASA would accept a petition if non- members were to sign it. I would forget the NFAA as they seem very much on the verge of dropping 3D. (Either the Old Guard has a death grip on shooting paper or they are mad because they didn't embrace 3D before the IBO and ASA came on the scene.)

Pete Shepley (PSE) said some time ago after he came out of retirement; (In so many words); "Hunting has flattened out and growth is in target shooting."

Archery has room to grow and I look for other classes and target events to come about.


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## jlone (May 29, 2006)

*300 ft*

i think the only they want the speed is because they are probally lacking in the yardage judging department and they are shooting hunter class which at 300+ you only need one pin were is the fun in that 
at 285 you are shooting against the shooter the speed of the bow


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## cameron (Sep 15, 2005)

jlone said:


> i think the only they want the speed is because they are probally lacking in the yardage judging department and they are shooting hunter class which at 300+ you only need one pin were is the fun in that
> at 285 you are shooting against the shooter the speed of the bow


That could be one reason, but certanily not the only reason.


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## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

*The rule for IBO is 5grns per pound max*



SonnyThomas said:


> IBO is the fastest kept within the safety realm. You wish to break safety rules?
> 
> And no, 5 grs is not the limit per sa. With 5 grs of arrow or more per pound of draw weight there is no speed restriction. Bows with arrows weighing lessing than 5 grs per pound of draw weight are restricted to the 280 +/- 3% for error.


Now who says the fastest bow should have an advantage. I happen to feel 280 makes it more fair for everyone. Safety rules, I believe everone here is calling this an outlaw div. Someone will eventually try and shot under that and bows will break. Who thinking safety now.
DB


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

Daniel Boone said:


> Now who says the fastest bow should have an advantage. I happen to feel 280 makes it more fair for everyone. Safety rules, I believe everone here is calling this an outlaw div. Someone will eventually try and shot under that and bows will break. Who thinking safety now.
> DB


You lost me or you skipped over replies. However, I believe as you have put forth, someone will try to make the cut (Outlaw speed limit) and end up destroying equipment and possibly cause injury.


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## Erbowman (Mar 24, 2004)

ASA has one of the best divisions now to draw in newcomers. Its called bow novice. It has known yardage and really speed is of no factor when you know the yardage. All you have to do is execute a good shot. I agree with DB. With a rule like "shoot what you bring " would only cause problems. You would have people shoot well underspined arrows and ruining equipment and causing injury. Besides, where would it end? Think of the other equip people would put on in a class like that. I also agree that very few people don't shoot ASA only b/c of that speed rule.

Stay within the rules and have fun. I have seen some people not qualify through the crono before. I would say they were embarrassed for cheating. I however do wish that they made at least the top 20 in the larger classes have to shoot through and that should deter most from trying the limits. 

I will say though, maybe the speeds need to be adjusted since bows do seem to be getting faster.


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## J Name (Dec 30, 2005)

I think the 280 rule ******s advancment of the archery industry. I dont see thourobreds wieghted down so us big guys can ride on a level playing field.


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## Erbowman (Mar 24, 2004)

J Name said:


> I think the 280 rule ******s advancment of the archery industry. I dont see thourobreds wieghted down so us big guys can ride on a level playing field.


You can't compare a racing game to an accuracy game. Thats like apples to oranges. Besides racing does have rules that they have to follow for the safety of jockeys and the horses. IBO and ASA both have rules on speed. They are just different in how you calculate the speed.


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## gpalma (Oct 3, 2007)

J Name said:


> I think the 280 rule ******s advancment of the archery industry. I dont see thourobreds wieghted down so us big guys can ride on a level playing field.


Hardly.

What it DOES do is allow shooters of shorter stature and strength to compete. 

NOW, a shooter drawing 26" at 50# can compete with a person having a 30" draw that shoots 70# or more. With unlimited speed limits, they cannot. Now it comes down to who can estimate yardage better, not shoot the flattest arrow.


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## djkillaz (Apr 14, 2005)

correct..... You still have to make the shot. Plus yardage being out to 50 yds in the OutLaw class. you'll still need to be able to judge yardage.


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## cameron (Sep 15, 2005)

This can be debated for the next two years, I don't care. But for me, I am thankful I do not have to make ANY equipment changes to shoot an ASA event.

Thank you to the Michigan chapter for welcoming us to your sport.


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

Just had a great idea from one of the replies. Let's make classes broken down by draw length. 

HEY! I'm joking with ya.

I'm waiting for someone to start a petition to go about this the proper way instead of the name calling that started of this Thread.


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## tennpin (May 20, 2005)

*speed*

A good shooter shooting 280 will alway beat a bad shooter shooting 320.


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## cameron (Sep 15, 2005)

SonnyThomas said:


> I'm waiting for someone to start a petition to go about this the proper way instead of the name calling that started of this Thread.


Sugar works better....


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## cameron (Sep 15, 2005)

tennpin said:


> A good shooter shooting 280 will alway beat a bad shooter shooting 320.


I do agree. But at least 320 will be invited now.


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## whitetail99 (Feb 1, 2003)

How about breaking down classes by your eye sight or maybe physical fitness. Hay why not have a class with...... bla-bla-bla. 
A great shooter at 320 will stomp a 280 good shooter every time $$$
Really how about getting more people to shoot. If more heads are extracted and egos left at home we might have a resurgence of shooters. I truly hope that the good hearted majority out in our archery community will prevail. but I do see a lot of Boo-Who people deeply ensconces in archery {especially in competitive archery}. A 280 bow is slow by the vast majority of modern production bows. Most modern bows can shoot a arrow well at 300 fps with fixed broad heads. Bottom line find more ways to get more shooters to try. Oh yeah by the way speed is fun. :wink:


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## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

*Amazing*



whitetail99 said:


> How about breaking down classes by your eye sight or maybe physical fitness. Hay why not have a class with...... bla-bla-bla.
> A great shooter at 320 will stomp a 280 good shooter every time $$$
> Really how about getting more people to shoot. If more heads are extracted and egos left at home we might have a resurgence of shooters. I truly hope that the good hearted majority out in our archery community will prevail. but I do see a lot of Boo-Who people deeply ensconces in archery {especially in competitive archery}. A 280 bow is slow by the vast majority of modern production bows. Most modern bows can shoot a arrow well at 300 fps with fixed broad heads. Bottom line find more ways to get more shooters to try. Oh yeah by the way speed is fun. :wink:



Most the Mathews shooters cant hit 320 and they seem to win there fair share of IBO events.  Good shooters know how to judge yardage better.
DB


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## macworkz23 (Aug 9, 2007)

*great idea!*

I do not believe this will 'fix' the drop in numbers of 3D. It may make it easier to get a 'yes' when a 'newbie' is invited to shoot ASA for the first time. The fundamental flaw I see in that class as it stands is you are pitting pin/beginner shooters against hi tech shooters.

I think the focus for building the sports' numbers is in need of a change. All major organizations need to think 'out of the box' to get it done. Doing it the same way is insane (doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results).

At the Kurek shoot we had 105 newbies - never shot a 3d tournament before. I know new numbers can be brought in. 

When we advertised for this shoot we asked newbies what would keep them away and what would get them to support the shoot. We structured the shoot around what they told us.

If the advertising for the Deltaplex shoot in Michigan is handled properly it will bring newbies in. I think that shoot is a great idea - my challenge and question for Vince S. and Mike W. is, what are you doing to advertise your shoot and build your numbers?


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## hutchies (Jun 8, 2005)

I would hate to see the ASA go the route of the IBO and go with 5 GPP. Yeah my bow is slow and whatever..........Sorry I can't help my genetics that I was born with short arms. I shoot 28" draw.........Losing 20 FPS right off the top. Do I think 280 is fair...........Yeah. I'm barely getting over 280.................................


Answer me this..........Why doesn't IBO allow High Country shooters to shoot the speed pro max arrows? Manufacturer warranties them so they can't be that dangerous.............Probably because nobody can keep up with the speed of them.


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## macworkz23 (Aug 9, 2007)

*great point TD!*



whitetail99 said:


> How about breaking down classes by your eye sight or maybe physical fitness. Hay why not have a class with...... bla-bla-bla.
> A great shooter at 320 will stomp a 280 good shooter every time $$$
> Really how about getting more people to shoot. If more heads are extracted and egos left at home we might have a resurgence of shooters. I truly hope that the good hearted majority out in our archery community will prevail. but I do see a lot of Boo-Who people deeply ensconces in archery {especially in competitive archery}. A 280 bow is slow by the vast majority of modern production bows. Most modern bows can shoot a arrow well at 300 fps with fixed broad heads. Bottom line find more ways to get more shooters to try. Oh yeah by the way speed is fun. :wink:


All I would ask is for the experienced folks that run the shoots to be open minded and willing to recieve feed back; then be willing to act on appropriate feed back. 

My experience has been frustrating when I have been 'pro-active' in providing feedback. I am repeatedly ignored and too often I am treated rudely and frankly, disrespected. It doesn't seem to matter which organization I've spoken to or whether my feed back has been positive or negative . This I do not under stand.


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## cameron (Sep 15, 2005)

macworkz23 said:


> All I would ask is for the experienced folks that run the shoots to be open minded and willing to recieve feed back; then be willing to act on appropriate feed back.
> 
> My experience has been frustrating when I have been 'pro-active' in providing feedback. I am repeatedly ignored and too often I am treated rudely and frankly, disrespected. It doesn't seem to matter which organization I've spoken to or whether my feed back has been positive or negative . This I do not under stand.


As a "new" 3D course director, I will welcome your constructive comments, good or bad.... So pay our course a visit this year!!! livingstongunclub.org


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## macworkz23 (Aug 9, 2007)

cameron said:


> As a "new" 3D course director, I will welcome your constructive comments, good or bad.... So pay our course a visit this year!!! livingstongunclub.org


I've shot IBO there numerous times! I'm sure I will this year too! Feel free to PM me w/ a phone # and I'd be happy to provide my 2 cents worth.


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## cameron (Sep 15, 2005)

macworkz23 said:


> I've shot IBO there numerous times! I'm sure I will this year too! Feel free to PM me w/ a phone # and I'd be happy to provide my 2 cents worth.


Your thinking of LCSA, we are LGC..... LCSA is on Mt.Clements Rd, and we are on Hunter road.:wink:


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## nikebear (Jul 17, 2002)

OK... Here is the DEAL
1. OUTLAW class in only in MI ASA.
2. OUTLAW class was thought of after many discussions with current MI ASA participants and some who don't currently participate.
3. This is a great example of thinking out of the box. It is pretty original... In case you didn't know "out of the box" means to develop something that is not currently in practice!
4. I doubt that a "newbie" shooting a bow over 280 fps is a "newbie" shooter. I bet they have been hunting for YEARS and want the speed for longer distance shots. A true newbie, most likely will have a slower bow and will fit into the bow novice class. I am positive at registration, there will be someone there to help them figure it out.
5. As far as safety, how stupid do you think an organizer of a 3d shoot really is?

As far as the advertisiment of the shoot at the Delta Plex, why don't you just call the organizer of this shoot? 

Now let's all play nice....


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## whitetail99 (Feb 1, 2003)

Daniel Boone said:


> Most the Mathews shooters cant hit 320 and they seem to win there fair share of IBO events.  Good shooters know how to judge yardage better.
> DB


If your first statement is actually correct with in the 5 GPP I would be EXTREMELY surprised. Quality shooters do win and they are rewarded with the best offers. Your last statement is open for interpretation. I know good shooters that can not judge distance. I know shooters that can judge distance very well but do not shoot well. Good people are better at being nice. Sounds nice but is it really good?:wink:


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## macworkz23 (Aug 9, 2007)

*interesting question*



nikebear said:


> OK... Here is the DEAL
> 1. OUTLAW class in only in MI ASA.
> 2. OUTLAW class was thought of after many discussions with current MI ASA participants and some who don't currently participate.
> 3. This is a great example of thinking out of the box. It is pretty original... In case you didn't know "out of the box" means to develop something that is not currently in practice!
> ...


I've shot some down right un safe tournaments. So it does not always pay to assume a shoot is set up safely!

I agree - we should all play nice!


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## Bubba Dean (Jun 2, 2005)

Kent Arms- Vinnie good luck on drawing the IBO crowd. You take away their only excuse for not shooting ASA and they still won't come. They will have to use the 12 as their excuse now. You know the old you get rewarded for making a bad shot BS.


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## cameron (Sep 15, 2005)

I have never shot ASA, but I will now. And I have about 5 IBO shooters that will also be shooting it as well because of the Mich Outlaw division. That is 6 IBO shooters that would not have shot, so yes, the project is already successful.

Lets look at the advantages:

1. IBO shooters need not buy new equipment.
2. IBO shooters now feel welcome.
3. Match attendance will show an increase.
4. All speed limit classes are still in place.
5. The potential for Eastern side of Mich clubs to start hosting ASA events.

Lets look at the disadvantages:

1. Some current ASA members do not like it.
2. ??????

And just to note, the 6 of us IBO'ers signed up for a marked yardage shoot, so the estimation discussion is out the window.

Still have to make the shot.


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## macworkz23 (Aug 9, 2007)

*unfortunately...*



Bubba Dean said:


> Kent Arms- Vinnie good luck on drawing the IBO crowd. You take away their only excuse for not shooting ASA and they still won't come. They will have to use the 12 as their excuse now. You know the old you get rewarded for making a bad shot BS.


...I have to agree with a large part of this. 

I like ASA scoring better than IBO scoring because it presents more challenges at each shot. The thinking process is different. There are more available risks and you still have the option to 'gamble'/'risk' higher points or a 'safe' center 10. I see value in both strategies. I bet if more IBO 'newbies' are exposed to ASA scoring many would enjoy the scoring format as well. 

I'd like to see an Outlaw Hunter class for hunting rigs at 35 yards max, and an Outlaw Open class where anything goes class. Last year I asked guys I shot with at the IBO shoots in the hunter class about the outlaw class and all would have shot it if the yardage was limited to 35 yards *OR* less. These guys have a different mind set and actually think like most of the bow hunters who do not shoot tournaments. To build the 3d numbers those hunters need to start shooting 3d.

The question becomes how do you get them to shoot the tournaments?

Another question arises. Is the point of the Outlaw class to draw IBO shooters to ASA or to draw new 3d shooters to ASA or both? I do not care if a person shoots ASA or IBO. I enjoy both. 

The sad part is that most bow hunters would enjoy them both as well. Too often they view tournament shooters as snobs. It makes me wonder what we have done as representatives, advocates, participants of the sport to foster this perception; and what we must do to change that perception. 

If NASCAR, NFL football, NBA basketball, and NHL hockey can do it so can 3d archery. 

Mathews Inc. has a grasp of this concept. Look at what they have done to create demand for their bows. It's hard to argue with their success. They have been so successful that other bow companies are copying their strategies. 

I think we need to create demand for 3d archery as a sporting option. That will only happen if the way 3d archery is marketed changes.


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## cameron (Sep 15, 2005)

Most people feel intimidated by the thought of shooting a tournament, even leagues!!!

I for one am going to find a way to offer the "first" time 3D shooters a free pass at my club to try it out. Maybe that will break the ice to get more folks shooting their bows from December through August.


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## Slice (Jul 20, 2005)

cameron said:


> Thank you to the Michigan chapter for welcoming us to your sport.


:amen:


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## macworkz23 (Aug 9, 2007)

cameron said:


> Most people feel intimidated by the thought of shooting a tournament, even leagues!!!
> 
> I for one am going to find a way to offer the "first" time 3D shooters a free pass at my club to try it out. Maybe that will break the ice to get more folks shooting their bows from December through August.


That's a great idea Cameron! I spoke at length to reps from IBO and ASA last year about just that. It would make it easier to 'network' market new shooters to the sport.


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## cameron (Sep 15, 2005)

macworkz23 said:


> That's a great idea Cameron! I spoke at length to reps from IBO and ASA last year about just that. It would make it easier to 'network' market new shooters to the sport.


If you can be of any assistance, I will find a day this summer/spring to offer a free shoot at my club to anyone that has not had the 3D experiance.:darkbeer:

Or better yet, I will make a coupon for Michigan bow shops to hand out. First 3D shoot free at LGC. That way, they can come when they are ready.


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## macworkz23 (Aug 9, 2007)

cameron said:


> If you can be of any assistance, I will find a day this summer/spring to offer a free shoot at my club to anyone that has not had the 3D experiance.:darkbeer:
> 
> Or better yet, I will make a coupon for Michigan bow shops to hand out. First 3D shoot free at LGC. That way, they can come when they are ready.


I spoke with Jack Romeo from the IBO. He is expecting a call from you. I'll pm you with his number.


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## cameron (Sep 15, 2005)

macworkz23 said:


> I spoke with Jack Romeo from the IBO. He is expecting a call from you. I'll pm you with his number.


Thank you! I had a chat with Jack.:wink:


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## stevegabriel (Apr 18, 2007)

*seeking enlightenment*

I'm a recurve shooter and I don't understand the issue.

The reason you use a compound bow is because it's fast! The game is to hit your target, preferably cutting the 'x' or '11' ring. Accuracy is the name of the game.

I understand creating separate divisions for sights vs. barebow, fingers vs releases, even "traditional" using wood arrows, like the IFAA does, vs modern traditional gear. 

But not allowing a shooter using sights, a peep and a trigger with a 310 fps rig to shoot while someone else using sights, a peep and a trigger with a 285 fps rig can shoot is beyond me.

I'm not trolling for trouble, I'd just like to understand the logic.


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## Bubba Dean (Jun 2, 2005)

Steve hope this helps. it levels the playing field. Other than the brand BS you know Brand M is faster than Brand X, a speed limit allows someone with a 27" draw to be more equal to someone with a 30"+. General rule of thumb is same poundage, same arrow weight you gain approximately 10 fps/inch of extra draw. The faster you can shoot the more yardage challenged you can be and still shoot a 10. I also shoot recurve but don't understand some of the division in our shoots. I think if a guy wants to shoot wood that is his choice and shouldn't be given special consideration. Just as with the bow itself you choose to shoot of the shelf while someone else uses a rest that is your choice you shouldn't get a separate class or be allowed to shoot at a shorter distance because you feel you are "handicapped" by your equipment. JMHO


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## macworkz23 (Aug 9, 2007)

stevegabriel said:


> I'm a recurve shooter and I don't understand the issue.
> 
> The reason you use a compound bow is because it's fast! The game is to hit your target, preferably cutting the 'x' or '11' ring. Accuracy is the name of the game.
> 
> ...


If you pay attention to the rules in the various organizations I'll bet you will wonder what the logic was for several rules. I laugh some times because they make no sense to me. Oh well - I still shoot 'em.


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## stevegabriel (Apr 18, 2007)

Bubbadean and macworkz23,
Thanks for the heads up. I just started in August 2006 after a 30+ year layoff. I have a metal risered bow because I wanted a stickbow that was tunable and left me options (sight, stab etc.) but I _choose_ to shoot barebow.
At my club the longbow guys tell me to get a "man's bow" and most of the compound shooters tell me they don't understand why anyone in his right mind would shoot a recurve. YEESH!
We're having a 3-D shoot in April and I signed up. They thought I was nuts when I wanted to shoot from the same stakes as everyone else as opposed to the "blue stakes" for women, kids and stickbows.

I'll settle for having a good time.

Thanks,
Steve


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## cameron (Sep 15, 2005)

Your recurve is always welcome at my home club!!!!



stevegabriel said:


> Bubbadean and macworkz23,
> Thanks for the heads up. I just started in August 2006 after a 30+ year layoff. I have a metal risered bow because I wanted a stickbow that was tunable and left me options (sight, stab etc.) but I _choose_ to shoot barebow.
> At my club the longbow guys tell me to get a "man's bow" and most of the compound shooters tell me they don't understand why anyone in his right mind would shoot a recurve. YEESH!
> We're having a 3-D shoot in April and I signed up. They thought I was nuts when I wanted to shoot from the same stakes as everyone else as opposed to the "blue stakes" for women, kids and stickbows.
> ...


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## Bubba Dean (Jun 2, 2005)

Steve- It is fun to shoot with the compound shooters(I have been a compound shooter for 30+ years and still shoot one) with your recurve. Especially on those days when you are on. I was shooting with some friends who shoot Limited Pro on the practice range a couple of years ago, we had the typical jawing going on. I told Larry you don't want none of this when we started. I was stepping up closer to my max distance for my class to shoot most of the targets. We had a Large Deer at about 35 yards when he asked me if I wanted to step up I said no it isn't that far(they had been shooting at 50+). Well I put an arrow a 1/2" over the 12, turned to Larry and said I told you don't none of this. It is still a joke with us today. Good luck and have fun.


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## stevegabriel (Apr 18, 2007)

Funny you said that Bubba Dean.

I was involved with a couple of guys teasing me about my "toy bow" and I made comments about them using "training wheels". 
One guy shot a McKenzie turkey from 60 yards. 60 happens to be my point on range. Anything under, I have to gap. So I hit the Turkey 2 out of 3 shots and both were in the "8" ring. Naturally I didn't mention that the tip of the arrow acted as my sight pin. I just wrote it off to skill.:wink:


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## whitetail99 (Feb 1, 2003)

I just smile when I hear the training wheel thing. Have any traditional shooters ever whent to a event that would not let them shoot? I don't know of any around here in Michigan. I do know of 3D shoot that will not allow compound shooters. I know some great archers that just love to shoot and they can really shoot no matter what type of bow they use. Natural ability with discipline will keep you at the top in most any event in any class. The most important thing is to participate.. get out and practice at your local club. Support them with your attendance and help build a enjoyable experience.:wink:


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## milkman38 (Mar 5, 2007)

does the speed really matter in the bow novice class, 30y all you need is one pin at 280 or 315. mi bow novice is just a trophy now and its has the largest # of shooters, no speed limit would bring a few more in.


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## stevegabriel (Apr 18, 2007)

I hear you, whitetail99!

The people who've given me a hard time don't participate in club shoots. This goes for the "Trad" guys as well as the "wheelie" bows.

The rest of us just have fun and rag each other. 

As I mentioned before, I'm the one who chooses to shoot a recurve barebow instead of using a compound. My 12 year old uses a compound. He whips my butt regularly!  We're evenly matched even though I shoot more, but at least this way he comes and shoots with me every few weeks. 
Life is good.


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## macworkz23 (Aug 9, 2007)

*super!*



stevegabriel said:


> Bubbadean and macworkz23,
> Thanks for the heads up. I just started in August 2006 after a 30+ year layoff. I have a metal risered bow because I wanted a stickbow that was tunable and left me options (sight, stab etc.) but I _choose_ to shoot barebow.
> At my club the longbow guys tell me to get a "man's bow" and most of the compound shooters tell me they don't understand why anyone in his right mind would shoot a recurve. YEESH!
> We're having a 3-D shoot in April and I signed up. They thought I was nuts when I wanted to shoot from the same stakes as everyone else as opposed to the "blue stakes" for women, kids and stickbows.
> ...


That's the spirit!!


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## Bubba Dean (Jun 2, 2005)

Whitetail 99- I have never been told I couldn't shoot. I think the most problems for me would occur if I attended a "traditional" shoot such as Compton or Cloverdale. The pure "traditional" folks tend to frown on metal risers, stabilizers and carbon arrows.


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## djkillaz (Apr 14, 2005)

ttt................


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## macworkz23 (Aug 9, 2007)

*a different...*



Bubba Dean said:


> Whitetail 99- I have never been told I couldn't shoot. I think the most problems for me would occur if I attended a "traditional" shoot such as Compton or Cloverdale. The pure "traditional" folks tend to frown on metal risers, stabilizers and carbon arrows.


...organization for a different kind of archer. They would love to have compound shooters support them. They recognize the differences between styles is all.


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## Bubba Dean (Jun 2, 2005)

Mac- Sorry gonna disagree with you. Some(not all) of the pure traditional folks look down at compound shooters too. I have had a "recognizable" name traditonal hunter tell me that I could kill more and larger animals with a stick than a compound. It has less to do with the style you shoot than what you shoot. After all shooting a recurve is shooting a recurve whether is metal or wood riser and the arrows are aluminum, carbon or wood. I will leave the longbow guys out because I envy them, can't shoot a longbow if my life depended on it. Last year at the IBO World I had a gentleman tell me that he wouldn't shoot where he had to shoot against metal bows with his wood bow. I told him if he thought he needed a metal bow to compete he needed to buy one. I have one because it is my choice of weapon just as he choose a wood one. I just get tired of folks who shoot stick, at tournaments, wanting to be given special considerations because they shoot wood arrows or have a wood bow. For crying out loud there are not that many of us to start with that we can divide a small class even smaller. What is next a class for blue eyed blondes?


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## stevegabriel (Apr 18, 2007)

*arrow hostile ranges*

I don't want to go off topic, but you guys started talking about increasing participation in 3-D.

I know at my club a lot of guys don't want to deal with some targets because a miss can have the arrow going into a "swamp" with the arrow buried and lost in the mud, or hitting a rock and breaking the arrow. I've never been to an IBO or ASA shoot, just my club's range and Frost Valley's. Frost Valley has a lot of targets where a miss means the arrow goes to @#$%^&# Egypt!

I've heard similar stories about other ranges. Perhaps setting up some backstops would help.

Sorry for going off topic


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## stevegabriel (Apr 18, 2007)

Bubba Dean said:


> ...What is next a class for blue eyed blondes?


How about using Horsebows on rollerskates?


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## powerpoint9 (Jul 6, 2007)

*Equipment Determines Rules!*

When I played a lot of golf starting back in the early 80's I noticed I played on some short courses. Now I see the newer courses averaging in some cases 500+ yards longer than the older ones because the *EQUIPMENT HAS CHANGED*. It's easier for an average golfer to get a longer drive!


So the ASA should be proactive not reactive and make these changes before they become obsolete. *If it will continue to be "The Shooters Choice" they should see what the shooters want to shoot!* One day in the near future 300 fps will be a the expected speed we get out of a youth bow!


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## macworkz23 (Aug 9, 2007)

*this is a step in the right direction*

I think this class is the right move. I hope the national level will agree.


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## J Name (Dec 30, 2005)

macworkz23 said:


> I think this class is the right move. I hope the national level will agree.


 I agree


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## bhtr3d (Feb 13, 2004)

the 280 fps for ASA is a rule from it's inception ....DONT look for it to change.


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## macworkz23 (Aug 9, 2007)

*why not?*



bhtr3d said:


> the 280 fps for ASA is a rule from it's inception ....DONT look for it to change.


Do you know if the ASA national staff has done a complete formal market study to see what the shooters want? Have they asked the 'Joe Average' bowhunter what would entice him to try 3d? 

My concern is that I hear ASA and IBO and NFAA reps telling me shooter numbers are down. So my question for you and them is ... what are the organizations doing about it? 

This is America and I don't buy that we don't have the ingenuity to get more folks involved with 3d archery. So...what's ASA doing about it? Vince is trying something, and I give him credit for 'thinking outside of the archery box'.


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## hoytsalot (Aug 14, 2006)

i agree with mac if this outlaw class is going to increase partipation in the archery world why not let it happen. good thinking vince.


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## whitetail99 (Feb 1, 2003)

I am going to make time for this shoot. I want to be able to shoot in the very first Michigan Outlaw class. Years from now when its open class its outlaw class and say what a great change it was.
Links 
http://www.deltaplex.com/
http://www.deltaplex.com/location.htm

Here is a .pdf flyer.

http://www.miasaarchery.com/asa indoor.pdf


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## macworkz23 (Aug 9, 2007)

*great idea...*



whitetail99 said:


> I am going to make time for this shoot. I want to be able to shoot in the very first Michigan Outlaw class. Years from now when its open class its outlaw class and say what a great change it was.
> Links
> http://www.deltaplex.com/
> http://www.deltaplex.com/location.htm
> ...


I hope more of the shooters from your side of the state will come over here. It would be nice to get their support. 

I hear too many excuses by the East side crowd for not coming to the West side. Not that I don't hear the same bs here about going over there.


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## whitetail99 (Feb 1, 2003)

macworkz23 said:


> I hope more of the shooters from your side of the state will come over here. It would be nice to get their support.
> 
> I hear too many excuses by the East side crowd for not coming to the West side. Not that I don't hear the same bs here about going over there.


I am slightly concerned about the weather. If its going to be 4 hours of driving 35 MPH on ice I am not going to even try. The only day I could do this would be on Sunday. I have a Saturday evening shoot at Full Quiver that is only minutes from my house.


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## macworkz23 (Aug 9, 2007)

*weather...*

The weather looks promising! Hope to see you there.


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## cameron (Sep 15, 2005)

macworkz23 said:


> The weather looks promising! Hope to see you there.


See ya on Sunday???


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## huntinpool (May 5, 2004)

*speed*

the speed rule helps the 25" to 27" draw shooters the most . they really have to do everything they can to get 280 out of a bow. 30" like me can just shoot lighter poundage to get the speed under. It is there to make it fair across the board. I hated being told I had to slow my bow down at first, but I have found that my groups and accuracy have improved greatly at 284 over 307 and accuracy wins you money.


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## whitetail99 (Feb 1, 2003)

I ended up with too many work commitments to make the first Michigan ASA Outlaw event. Hope all that attend had fun and look forward to hearing how things went.


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## whitetail99 (Feb 1, 2003)

*Outlaw Success!*

Wow I consider this a successful trial run. These score are complement of
this AT thread http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=625441



Jr. Eagle Bow Novice Super Senior 
Eagle Hunter Sr. Women's Open 
Sr. Eagle Traditional Women's Open 
Youth Girls Open C Women's Hunter 
Youth Boys Open B Outlaw 
Young Adult Female Open A 
Young Adult Male Sr. Open 

Class Last Name First Name TOTAL Score 12's Payback 
Total Participants 125 

Jr. Eagle Pietryga Jacob 75 1 1st Place 
Total 1 

Eagle Boice Talon 71 0 1st Place 
Eagle Haisma Chase 68 2 2nd Place 
Total 2 

Sr. Eagle Nix Arlen 96 2 1st Place 
Sr. Eagle Miller Kaelynne 91 2 2nd Place 
Sr. Eagle Boice Jimmy 81 1 3rd Place 
Sr. Eagle Pietryga Aaron 75 2 
Sr. Eagle Pike Joshua 65 1 
Total 5 

Youth Girls VanAusdall Kimberly 288 4 1st Place 
Total 1 

Youth Boys Gardner Andrew 271 2 1st Place 
Youth Boys Zakfeld Kris 241 1 2nd Place 
Youth Boys Tran Chris 231 0 
Youth Boys Pietryga Nick 216 0 
Youth Boys Francisco Kyle 137 0 
Total 5 

Young Adult Female Reed Rachel 274 1 1st Place 
Total 1 

Young Adult Male Redman Chad 301 9 1st Place 
Young Adult Male Berhuis Kyle 234 3 
Young Adult Male Sykora Ryan 191 1 
Total 3 

Bow Novice Clark Justin 306 7 1st Place 
Bow Novice Berghuis James 304 7 2nd Place 
Bow Novice Mick McJunkin 302 6 3rd Place 
Bow Novice Wilson Dave 295 7 
Bow Novice Wurster Wayne 294 7 
Bow Novice Helsel Mark 294 4 
Bow Novice Goosen Jay 293 5 
Bow Novice Henley Zachary 292 6 
Bow Novice Vanderbeek Scott 292 6 
Bow Novice Henion Kevin 292 5 
Bow Novice Woodward Brent 292 5 
Bow Novice Whitta Aaron 290 5 
Bow Novice George Mollen 289 5 
Bow Novice Klow Ryan 288 5 
Bow Novice Heisler Steve 288 4 
Bow Novice Hall Darrin 284 4 
Bow Novice Boice Brian 282 6 
Bow Novice Loose Jason 281 4 
Bow Novice Truckey Scott 279 5 
Bow Novice VandeVrede Russ 279 3 
Bow Novice Gustafson Robb 279 2 
Bow Novice Clark Nick 278 6 
Bow Novice Adams Ryan 278 1 
Bow Novice Paxson Scott 277 4 
Bow Novice Flinn Kelly 276 2 
Bow Novice Gittus Chad 271 1 
Bow Novice Francisco Neal 269 5 
Bow Novice Huston Bryce 269 5 
Bow Novice Lange Cameron 268 6 
Bow Novice Wilson Ken 267 2 
Bow Novice Hooker Todd 265 3 
Bow Novice Lehman Jamey 263 3 
Bow Novice VanAusdall Andy 263 3 
Bow Novice Larson Leif 261 3 
Bow Novice Armock Andrew 259 6 
Bow Novice Dent Tim 259 5 
Bow Novice Norris Rob 245 1 
Bow Novice Hall Jacob 241 2 
Bow Novice Johnson Adam 232 1 
Bow Novice Haisma Brent 220 3 
Bow Novice Eyk Steve 205 1 
Total 41 

Hunter Reed Daniel 299 6 $66 
Hunter Whiting Micheal 298 4 $44 
Hunter Miller Greg 295 6 
Hunter Heisler Ray 294 5 
Hunter Case Mike 294 4 
Hunter Harding Marlin 292 5 
Hunter Race Dave 280 5 
Hunter Maitland Jeff 279 2 
Hunter Gardner Dave 277 4 
Hunter Clark Matt 269 14 
Hunter Wilson Tim 269 4 
Total 11 

Traditional 
Total 0 

Open A Osman Mitch 330 15 $42 
Open A Parish Gary 330 13 $28 
Open A Warner Jason 325 14 
Open A Whalen Mike 319 11 
Open A Mosley Jimmy 313 9 
Open A Kirk Eric 306 5 
Open A Porter James 257 0 
Total 7 

Open B Becker Dave 344 14 $60 
Open B Potter John 320 10 $40 
Open B Stowe Lyle 314 9 
Open B Austin Dean 303 13 
Open B Feldpausch Brent 291 10 
Open B Calvin Richard 291 8 
Open B Schonfelder Rocky 285 1 
Open B Smith Edward 263 3 
Open B Chapman Jason 251 5 
Open B Bebow Christopher 205 2 
Total 10 

Open C Poet Derrick 302 5 $36 
Open C Makley Dan 296 4 $18 
Open C Good Brad 295 10 
Open C Pollard Mike 288 8 
Open C Halsted Dean 283 7 
Open C Wein Matt 265 3 
Total 6 

Sr. Open Kline Vern 329 15 $30 
Sr. Open Olger Mike 323 15 $20 
Sr. Open Bebow John 292 3 
Sr. Open Hill Roger 287 3 
Sr. Open Swix John 264 3 
Total 5 

Super Senior Bare Jack 322 14 $30 
Super Senior Blank Keith 297 7 
Super Senior Riley Jim 268 1 
Total 3 

Women's Senior Hill Carol 267 3 $20 
Women's Senior Bare Sue 259 1 
Total 2 

Women's Open Schultes Joan 302 10 $10 
Total 1 

Women's Hunter Sweat Wendy 284 2 1st Place 
Women's Hunter Bebow Deborah 281 2 2nd Place 
Women's Hunter Champenoy Rachel 274 3 
Women's Hunter Makley Rochelle 266 2 
Women's Hunter Horstmyer Marilyn 242 3 
Women's Hunter Pike Sue 234 2 
Total 6 

Outlaw Couturier Tim 332 15 $75 
Outlaw Depover Paul 319 13 $45 
Outlaw Fernandez John 318 8 $30 
Outlaw Ladd Jason 309 13 
Outlaw Swisher Mark 300 4 
Outlaw Wilson Chip 292 10 
Outlaw Fernandez Cara 290 4 
Outlaw Smith Chuck 285 5 
Outlaw Andrus David 279 7 
Outlaw Penix Paul 274 2 
Outlaw Bailey Chad 273 4 
Outlaw McFry II Tim 270 2 
Outlaw Putman Chris 268 5 
Outlaw Hayden John 245 1 
Outlaw Lehman Cole 0 0 Did not turn in score card 
Total 15


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