# Asbell "Style"



## LBR (Jan 1, 2004)

I've shot tournaments in several states--TX, MS, AL, GA, TN, FL, OH, WV, PA--and I've never seen anyone who was consistently accurate (especially at any distance) that shot "Asbell style". I wouldn't say it's impossible, but I do think it will be very difficult for most. The best shots I know shoot in a very controlled manner. The Asbell method is more of an explosion--it's hard to be consistent when everything is in motion from the time you start the draw until the arrow is released. If you watch his video, he doesn't hit a consistent anchor point.

I think he gives some good information, but I'd never recommend that style to anyone. I've talked to more folks who have developed problems (at least two were accomplished archers just trying something different) from it than improved trying it.

Chad


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## alanraw (Feb 18, 2005)

Whenever I think about G. Fred Asbell and the "instinctive" style of shooting that he is a proponent of, I am reminded of a quote that Byron Ferguson made concerning a comment that Howard Hill made concerning "instinctive" shooters: "Howard Hill said he had seen hundreds of instinctive shooters but had never seen a good one"


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## longbowhunter (Mar 5, 2004)

So are you - Instinctive? Gap? or Point On? Split Vision? I think the reality is, at least for me, depending on the shot itself and the distance, I use components of all of them.


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## groved (Sep 3, 2007)

I do, atleast most of the time. I am relatively new to traditional shooting and the first book I read was Asbells "Instinctive Shooting" so that's all I knew. That is until I had a buddy film me shooting from different angles and that just got me confused even more! I was trying to fix too many problems at once so once i focused on my biggest problem, my grip, I started to focus on my draw. So long story short I do shoot Asbell style now and I have to tell you... it's working for me now and my shooting has greatly improved.


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## Teucer (Aug 19, 2007)

*So how do u do it*

I see asbell is not a popular style, so tell me how you define your draw. forget about aiming, I don't have an issue with that.


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## LBR (Jan 1, 2004)

First, I am NOT a coach, pro, etc. and don't claim to be. According to my tournament scores, I'm above average but I know I have plenty of room for improvement so take this for what it's worth.

I'm a hunter first and foremost, and that defines my shooting style somewhat. I hold the bow up (to reduce movement in the presence of game) before I ever start to draw. I try to focus on a tiny spot. I don't put a "death grip" on the bow. I try to draw in a slow, controlled manner to my anchor (I have a 3-point anchor). When I get all three anchors, I apply more back tension so my release is more like pulling a trigger--I don't really know when it's going to go off, it just happens. I try to maintain focus after the shot (one of my weak points) and follow through. The only real movement is my string hand, which comes back a little.

That's how it goes when I do it "right". That's for tournaments and most hunting shots. I can shoot "Asbell style" if needed--mostly bowfishing where many of the shots are close and fast--also on moving/aireal targets. On long shots--45-50 yds and beyond--I'll do basically the same thing as a hunting shot, except I'll conciously gap.

Chad


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## longbowhunter (Mar 5, 2004)

> First, I am NOT a coach, pro, etc. and don't claim to be. According to my tournament scores, I'm above average but I know I have plenty of room for improvement so take this for what it's worth.


 by LBR 

Excellent post, Chad! I am neither gifted nor a great shot. Aside from getting older between eyesight and arthritis, I just try to hold my own. Traditional Archery is like Flyfishing. I have spent a lifetime in pursuit of the perfect cast, and perfect arrow flight. I suppose I may never achieve either. But, that is what Heaven is for. 

I think we all adopt from what we read, hear or see. Then practice and use works best for us. It really is an individual thing.


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## Jim Casto Jr (Aug 20, 2002)

I had a chance to have a lengthy one-on-one chat with Mr. Asbell a little over a year ago. I found him to be a most cordial fellow. We were chatting about target panic. As a long time sufferer of the stuff, I was curious to learn his thoughts. I found out that he too has the darned stuff. He told me that if he even thought about holding at anchor, he would start shaking uncontrollably about six inches in front of his face. Hmmmm… maybe something to ponder?


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## Jack NZ (Apr 7, 2006)

I've read Mr Asbells 1st two books and found the methods very good for close in instinctive shooting,but that's it.
As soon as the distance gets much beyond 20 yards,I need to go to a more disiplined split vision style of shooting.
I think where some people go wrong with the Asbell style is to try using it for everything,and it's just not suited to some situations.
Every archer,weather they be a hunter,target shooter or both,needs more than one arrow in their quiver.
The Asbell style is just one arrow,theres a heap more to learn if one wants to be an all round archer.
I'd never hand one of his books to a new archer an say "do this",but I would give one to an expereinced archer and say "here's something different to think about.
Just don't try to make it your only style/method.


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## Fuzzy Hoyt Shooter (May 16, 2005)

I shoot "Asbell / Ferguson Style" Just remember, "BECOME THE ARROW"... it does work, however, in anything you do... "PRACTICE IS THE KEY"!!!!
Shoot'em Strait!
Fuzzy


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## Aspirin Buster (Mar 25, 2004)

*Instinctive Shooting*

If Howard Hill really made a statement like that it was because he never had opportunity to meet the late Rev. Stacy Groscup or see one of his instinctive shooting shows. I'd call Groscup's record of seven aspirin shot from mid air in a row with his recurve bow on national TV pretty good shooting. 


My two cents.


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## SteveB (Dec 18, 2003)

The exceptional are not necessarily the norm.

Steve


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## alanraw (Feb 18, 2005)

SteveB said:


> The exceptional are not necessarily the norm.
> 
> Steve


Well said, Steve. The quote that Howard Hill allegedly made was taken from Byron Ferguson's book entitled "Become the Arrow", not my own subjective opinion. But the reason I tend to think of that quote is my taking into consideration the skills of both Ferguson and Hill, and the aiming/shooting philosophies that both men put forth in their respective literary works: a definite aiming sytem/method of gauging distance which can be easily repeated by a shooter, unlike the simple "look at the spot you want to hit and let it fly" system which Asbell endorses...

Now Aspirin Buster, I am fully aware of the accounts made of the incredible skills of the late Rev. Dr. Groscup and I think I mentioned the nice words written about his life to you in Traditional Bowhunter magazine a while back, but I have to agree with SteveB in that even though Rev. Groscup was undeniably awesome, he may very well be one of the exceptions to the rule. I think the issue at hand is not whether or not someone can develop incredible skills using an "instinctive" method of shooting (i.e. Asbell style), but whether or not it would be better for someone who is trying to learn to shoot would be better off with a definite aiming method which can be easily repeatable so they can develop some degree of consistency with their form---and see some degree of consistency in their results


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## Bubba Dean (Jun 2, 2005)

When I grow up I want to be a snap shooter.


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## Aspirin Buster (Mar 25, 2004)

I think you have a point about new shooters. Instinctive shooting requires time, patience and skill. Good equipment and good coaching can also come into play for a new shooter. 

A few years ago when the Governor of WV wanted to learn to shoot while he was in office, there was no way he had enough time to learn instinctive shooting. So my father set him up with a sight, release, etc. Within an hour he was grouping arrows in the bullseye at 20yards... it was awesome and he became hooked on archery. 

So I agree somewhat with your point about new shooters. Well done. However, regarding his statement, one of the few times when the great Howard Hill "missed" the mark. HA HA


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## SBills (Jan 14, 2004)

LBR said it very well in his first post.

I believe most shooters, and especially new shooters will do better to learn a slower more controlled system to get their form correct and style ingrained. The "Asbell" style ends up with a lot of variables that can lead to inconsistency IMO. My wife after about four months of shooting set a 255 state record at an indoor shoot this year by learning and shooting a controlled style.

I am not a coach or expert, but I did teach her some basics and she has also studied some of the better videos out there.

From what I have read on Fred he started out as a target archer. Looking at pictures he seems to have good alignment and I think this "target basis" probably helps him quite a bit. In an article in TBM a while back he even wrote something to the effect that (paraphrased) "It would benefit many archers to take a more methodical and slowed down approach to shooting from time to time." What do you think he meant? I took it as slowing down the shot process to ensure the proper shot sequence was executed.

Also FWIW Fred is an excellent writer and seems a nice guy so my post is in no way meant to be a slight on the man.


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## tuffshot (Jan 3, 2004)

Most of todays new traditional shooters are from the compound rank and file. Wanting to try something new is good but what some seem to think is that you HAVE to shoot a recurve or longbow totally different. You don't, the priciple is the same. Even though not all compound shooters have perfect form, years ago most of the older gentlemen that went to the first compounds shot them the same a their recurve or longbow. "Vertical", with a solid anchor point and even some with pins.

The basic ground work is already there for the compound convert, from there it is just getting the proper bow weight for the individual and the proper arrow combination. After the basics become more second hand then if one wants to try another style I feel it would come more naturally, instead of a total transfomation all at once and expect to be proficient.


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## rattus58 (Jul 9, 2007)

It was very hard for me to do much booklearnin and I have read so many books on shooting and archery.

The one thing that I learned from Asbell was to push and pull at the same time as opposed to trying to just pull alone, or cock and drop, as I've heard it described.

The read of all things archery are enlightening and fun for me.

Aloha...  :beer:


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## tdm (Nov 26, 2008)

LBR said:


> First, I am NOT a coach, pro, etc. and don't claim to be. According to my tournament scores, I'm above average but I know I have plenty of room for improvement so take this for what it's worth.
> 
> I'm a hunter first and foremost, and that defines my shooting style somewhat. I hold the bow up (to reduce movement in the presence of game) before I ever start to draw. I try to focus on a tiny spot. I don't put a "death grip" on the bow. I try to draw in a slow, controlled manner to my anchor (I have a 3-point anchor). When I get all three anchors, I apply more back tension so my release is more like pulling a trigger--I don't really know when it's going to go off, it just happens. I try to maintain focus after the shot (one of my weak points) and follow through. The only real movement is my string hand, which comes back a little.
> 
> ...


Chad - I'm working establishing a consistent anchor, can you explain your 3 point anchor?

Thanks,
Todd


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## LBR (Jan 1, 2004)

It's pretty simple. 

My primary anchor point is my index finger on a upper tooth. This is the tooth directly underneath my eye, which naturally lines me up left and right. I choose an upper tooth because it won't move.

My second anchor is my middle finger in the corner of my mouth. This can move, but it's consistent if used with the other two.

The third is my thumb lying underneath my cheek bone.

With three anchor points, my draw is a lot more consistent. My hand is in the same place every time (if I do it right).

These may or may not work for you, since everyone's facial structure is different. Pick the ones that work for you--there's different ways to skin this cat. Ricky Welch fletches his arrows so one of the feathers touches the end of his nose at full draw--I believe he has two or three anchor points. I've never tried that, but evidently it works for him.

Chad


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## RLA (Nov 29, 2008)

I'm no expert & I've only been shooting traditional archery for 4 years. Over the years I have watched many people shoot & seen several instructional videos. I have tried most of the techniques that I have observed. Everyone is different and what works for one person, will not necessarily work for another. I have also found that different bows require subtle changes in my shooting style to get them to shoot their best. For me, it has mainly been changes in my grip. So to make a long story short...It takes a lot of time patience. It seems like I discover something new almost every time that I shoot. But, that's what makes it fun....


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## Teucer (Aug 19, 2007)

*As Not*

Well since I posted this thread awhile ago, I've played around with what asbell does. INMO I'm not a fan of this style. Too much movement getting the bow up, croutching down, etc. Here in the NE, you need to get spooky close to whitetails for a decent chance for a shot with traditional equipment. The less you give away the better. So I'm not bashing his style but it really does not work for me when it counts.


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## Tajue17 (Aug 18, 2005)

I don't like asbells style of shooting, I have his video and I've met him a few times at denton hill and it certainly works for him but he's a ground hunter always stalking nd moving from cover to cover.. his style to me is more for shots on moving targets, the bending of the knees the picking a spot before you even have the bow up-->its airial shooting at its finest!

I think the best method for hunting is the pull back method where you see a deer coming, you bring the bow up and hold it out there with your draw hand on the string and not at full draw yet,, now when the deer gets into your comfort zone you begin the draw and either hold and pick a spot or you already started picking the spot on the draw for a touch anchor shot.. its the best style I think too because it has the least amount of movement. 

have a buddy stand in front and facing you at about a 15yds with a bow and you watch him as he faces you and draws his bow back to anchor using the different styles (without an arrow obviosly right) at you as if you where an animal,, you will see what i'm talking about with the least amount of movement you will see.


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

If a bowhunter wants to become more successful...they should learn to become more versatile with their shooting form by learning to shoot from different positions and/or learning different drawing techiniques.

By learning BOTH the Swing Draw and drawing the bow while the bow arm is already raised and in place, the bowhunter will increase their chances of being able to take advantage of certain opportunities unique to many hunting situations.

Ray


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## kegan (Aug 28, 2006)

The first "instruction" I got on shooting was Asbell's materials. As an ambitious kid, the lack of structured form led to alot of bad habits. My draw legnth changed from 25"-29" at times, and I never had a good set of rules to fall back on when I just wasn't having a good "shooting day".

A few months ago I got "Hitting 'Em Like Howard Hill" and my shooting has imporved greatly, not so much because of the form, but because I had something concrete to fall back on and perfect. I would also consider Hill form one of the best and most comfortable I have for hunting, and I've never had a deer spook on the draw (just on the miss).

Though I shoot split-vision on stationary targets and long distance movings, I use insitinctive on close range arials a spot in the center and shoot for it. It definately helps to be able to shoot however the situation calls for you to do so.


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## LBR (Jan 1, 2004)

Versitle can be good, but it can also be a slippery slope.

I can think of two fellows I know, both experienced archers, who tried the Asbell style just to try and improve on their versitility. Neither one is a world champion, but both have won their share of big tournaments--they were already good shots.

Long story short, trying to learn to shoot Asbell style caused them a lot of problems that took a long time to overcome.

I've watched the tape (I have it here somewhere) several times, but never studied it or tried to follow it. I can shoot moving targets and/or snap shoot if need be. Most of the shots that call for this, other than bowfishing, are shots I'll just pass on.

A good gap shooter can shoot moving targets also. I watched Rod Jenkins at Cloverdale a few years ago at the areial targets. The only time I saw him miss was when someone else's arrow beat his to the target and knocked it out of the way. Pratice it enough, it becomes second nature--or "instinctive"--and can be done quickly, without really giving it any thought.

Teucer makes a good point as far as hunting goes. That's another reason I never gave that style much consideration--unless you are totally concealed, chances of getting off a shot on a MS whitetail with that much movement are slim and none.

Chad


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

If trying to become 'more versatile' makes an archer become less accurate or causes them to pick up bad habits...than something they are doing is wrong either with the techinique they are trying to learn or the way they are tring to learn it.

If an archer has mastered their versatility...than they have increased their shot opportunities. There's no other way around it. It can be nothing but positive.

The way I see it...everyone has to raise their bow arm up at some point to shoot an animal. We don't go walking around the woods or stand in our treestands with our bow arm already raised in position. So if a bowhunter can learn to draw their bows in a different ways such as slowly, quickly, swing draw or locked arm while maintaining solid form...that versatility should be nothing but a good thing.

The most important aspect an archer should maintain in regards to form and drawing a bow, especially at longer distances, should be their shoulder and arm alignment which can be consistant whether the archer is crouching, bending at the waiste, standing tall, using the Swing Draw or drawing with the bow arm already raised and in position.

Ray


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## LBR (Jan 1, 2004)

> If trying to become 'more versatile' makes an archer become less accurate or causes them to pick up bad habits...*than something they are doing is wrong either with the techinique they are trying to learn *or the way they are tring to learn it.


Bingo! That's why I don't like the Asbell technique. I didn't study it, but I can still shoot with a "swing draw" and/or quickly, at least at shorter ranges.



> We don't go walking around the woods or stand in our treestands with our bow arm already raised in position.


If I hear something, I'm going through a hot spot, or just get a feeling, my bow is up. When I sit in a stand, I generally have my bow positioned so very little movement is required to make a shot. There's a world of difference in a little movement and starting the draw with the bow resting on your knee (Asbell style).

I think I already said it in this thread, but I'll say it again anyway. The main reason I don't like his (Asbell's) method is because it's constant movement, from start to finish. Besides the obvious negatives in a hunting situation, it's next to impossible to be consistent--especially for someone starting out. Even Asbell doesn't have a consistent anchor in his video.

Can it be done? Of course--there's always exceptions to the rule. One of my best friends, who passed away a little over a year ago, was one of them. It's not something I'd suggest anyone try to learn, because I know at least two people and have talked to others that developed big problems due to it.

Chad


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

LBR said:


> Besides the obvious negatives in a hunting situation, it's next to impossible to be consistent--especially for someone starting out. Even Asbell doesn't have a consistent anchor in his video.
> 
> Chad


The Swing Draw is a time proven techinique for many hunting circumstances. History has proven that. It's only going to be negative if it's not used in the right situation. The key is to know how and when to use it.

If movement is the indicator of someone not being able to be consistant...than there would be no way baseball players, basketball players or football players could be consistant with their accuracy.

Any techinique practiced with a foundation of sound fundamentals can be adapted to work under different circumstances. All it takes is good practice, determination, perseverence and a desire to learn it.

It's not like the Swing Draw is some kind of fluke techinique that only a few people can make work. There are more than many that have effectively learned it and can make it work.

Ray


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## SteveB (Dec 18, 2003)

> All it takes is good practice, determination, perseverence and a desire to learn it.


It would also take the need to have it as an option - one I have never felt.

Steve


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## kegan (Aug 28, 2006)

I'm with Black Wolf on support of the swing draw for hunting, but i thnk it needs that one follow the "finish straight" pull that Shultz covers in "Hitting". By completeing the draw as if the entire draw had been straight back, you are able to make sure you're on target, and help give yourself more time for correction. With an anchor from beneath, like Asbell teaches, one can usually wind up shooting low, or off to the side (if you also face the target at an oblique angle as he tells you). 

The only trouble I've found is that you have to practice getting your shoulder into position before you start the shot, learning how to face the target by twisting at the waist the right amount. It's the one downside I've found, and one that seems to wreck my consistency if I don't pay attention to it.


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## DeerSpotter (Jan 29, 2007)

I have been shooting since I was 10 years old, I never learned from anybody because I never had any brothers and I only had one neighbor, and he didn't shoot the bow, so what I've learned from, is bad shots, my mind knows what works, and what doesn't work, if I'm consistently wrong to get it right, that's what's been happening. I've tried to copy others "to improve", but it never works for me.

As far as movement, you soon learn that if you have very much movement, you don't eat very much deer ! So while hunting you have to put yourself into the deer's head, and visualize, well maybe this will help you, a 28 MM lens that is an eyeball looking at you, matter fact. They can see a nat 20 yards away ! Their nose is 750 times greater than ours, so when it comes to movement, you just move a millisecond at a time. You will eat more deer that way. Asbell is about selling things, I'm sure he is a good archer. But he's more into making dvds and selling books. That's his focus, he is selling a system, if that system can work for you, all the more better. But you'll need to find what works for you like others have said, and also adept things that you learn from some people. If you learn to keep it simple, you'll do a lot better, don't get wrapped up in the technical stuff, speed, poundage, arrow weight. Once you get those things set don't let them make you a victim of your own bow, learn your equipment and let it teach you.

You are your own best competition ! Challenge yourself in a way that it develops you from the inside out. And it will develop you in such a way that it changes others around you. One way of developing good skills is to teach somebody that knows absolute nothing about it, in teaching others we excel ourselves to the next level.

The best thing you can do for yourself, give yourself permission to make a mistake while the whole world is watching !

Carl


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## LBR (Jan 1, 2004)

> The Swing Draw is a time proven techinique for many hunting circumstances. History has proven that.


I can only speak for myself,from my own experiences, and from what I've watched and read over the years. You'd have to elaborate a bit more, because I simply haven't seen that. What are some of the many hunting circumstances in which the hunter could benefit from the swing draw? How has history proven it? 

The only time I've found it useful for hunting deer was when I was totally concealed in a ground blind--it has happened to me once, a VERY close shot, and if I'd had time to think about it I wouldn't have even tried it. I made the shot, but I had a lot of second thoughts afterward, and chances are that situation will never arise again. I guess it could work for pheasants. I hunt deer for the most part, and like I said--I can't see it happening on a MS whitetail.

The discussion was concerning G. Fred's method--not a swing draw in general. Big difference, but either way it's not something I'd advise a beginner to try and learn. I can shoot with a swing draw, and use it pretty regularly bowfishing, but it's not the G. Fred way.



> If movement is the indicator of someone not being able to be consistant...than there would be no way baseball players, basketball players or football players could be consistant with their accuracy.


Apples and banannas. Shotguns and rifles. Only the best (the exceptions) are the pin-point accurate pitchers, quarterbacks, and high-scorers in basketball--and what is their sucess rate? How many pitchers, quarterbacks, and 3-point shooters are on an average team? Even the best of the best aren't always that accurate. At any rate, it's hard for someone just learning to be consistent with a stationary draw, much moreso with everything in motion. I've never seen any consistently good archer who used a swing draw. I've seen some that were good when they were "on", but they lacked consistency.

As I said, there's a few folks that can "make it work", but they are the exception, not the rule. I'd think after years of shooting tournaments and attending rendevous all over the Eastern U.S. I'd have seen more than a very few of these folks if they weren't a rarity. I can only think of two off the top of my head, and they were both "on", or way off. No consistency.

There may be a place for it in close-range hunting, but other than birds I've never considered a bow to be a "jump and shoot" weapon. 'Course that's just me, and (along with personal experience) that is what I'm basing my opinion on.

It's pretty obvious from the books and DVD's on the market that it's not a popular method among the better shooters or coaches either. As far as I know, G. Fred is the only well-known advocate.

Chad


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## Tajue17 (Aug 18, 2005)

LBR said:


> Bingo! That's why I don't like the Asbell technique. I didn't study it, but I can still shoot with a "swing draw" and/or quickly, at least at shorter ranges.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



same here and I can't stress it enough for real world hunting when I hear or see something my bow arm is immediatley coming up slow and I find myself from that point on peeking around my riser at whatever is coming in,, I litterly have that bow out in front, canted and ready with my hand on the string and ready to pull it back to anchor--> I drew back on a buck very slow at 10yds while he had stopped and watching me and he just kept popping his head up and trying to smell and he could not figure out what I was until the bow went off , I did shoot over his back but well thats another story


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

LBR said:


> What are some of the many hunting circumstances in which the hunter could benefit from the swing draw?


Primarily when an animal presents itself for a shot opportunity where a bowhunter does't have time to set up the way they may prefer...which can definitely occur while ground hunting or with moving animals. If you practice for it...than you can be prepared for it. If you don't believe in it...you're most likely not gonna practice it...and therefore you're basically stuck with your one method and have decreased your shot opportunities because you chose not too...and there's nothing wrong with that. It's your choice.



LBR said:


> How has history proven it?


Some of the biggest names in traditional archery such as Howard Hill, Fred Bear, Byron Fergueson, Ron LaClaire, Stacy Groscup, Frank Addington Jr., G. Fred Asbell, John Shultz all have used a swing draw to some extent or another where they drew their bow while they were raising it into position. These guys didn't get well known because they were poor shots or unsuccessful bowhunters. I'd say that should be plenty proof of the effectiveness of that draw style.



LBR said:


> The discussion was concerning G. Fred's method--not a swing draw in general. Big difference, but either way it's not something I'd advise a beginner to try and learn.


If you read Teucers initial post he was asking about the way G. Fred basically draws his bow...which utilizes the Swing Draw.

As I said in my first post concerning this topic...learning to be more versatile is going to increase a bowhunters opportunities...whether the archer is learning to be versatile by shooting from the knees, on one knee, using the swing draw, sitting down, standing prone, crouching, etc. etc. The only time it's not...is when an archer looses his foundation or is learning it incorrectly. Someone who isn't as gifted with good hand and eye coordination may just have to work at it harder...but it can still be mastered.

Ray


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

LBR said:


> What are some of the many hunting circumstances in which the hunter could benefit from the swing draw?


Primarily when an animal presents itself for a shot opportunity that you didn't have time to prepare for or see them coming....which can definitely occur while ground hunting or with moving animals. If you practice for it...than you can be prepared for it. If you don't believe in it...you're most likely not gonna practice it...and therefore you're basically stuck with your one method and have decreased your shot opportunities because you chose not too...and there's nothing wrong with that. It's your choice.



LBR said:


> How has history proven it?


Some of the biggest names in traditional archery such as Howard Hill, Fred Bear, Byron Fergueson, Ron LaClaire, Stacy Groscup, Frank Addington Jr., G. Fred Asbell, John Shultz all have used a swing draw to some extent or another where they drew their bow while they were raising it into position. These guys didn't get well known because they were poor shots or unsuccessful bowhunters. I'd say that should be plenty proof of the effectiveness of that draw style.



LBR said:


> The discussion was concerning G. Fred's method--not a swing draw in general. Big difference, but either way it's not something I'd advise a beginner to try and learn.


If you read Teucers initial post he was asking about the way G. Fred basically draws his bow...which utilizes the Swing Draw.

As I said in my first post concerning this topic...learning to be more versatile is going to increase a bowhunters opportunities...whether the archer is learning to be versatile by shooting from the knees, on one knee, using the swing draw, sitting down, standing prone, crouching, etc. etc.

As far as beginners go...I'm more concerned about their arm and shoulder alignment after they have drawn their bow than how they get there.

If I had a beginning archer ask me what draw techinique will be more effective in hunting circumstances...I would tell them that the one that needed the least amount of movement would be...especially if they are hunting deer...but they would also benefit themselves by increase their shot opportunities by learning to do it more ways than just one 

Ray


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## Silvertip1 (Aug 17, 2008)

alot of us shoot the gap style and dont realize it. I focus on the target but do not release until the arrow tip comes in to my focus, and its always in the same spot for the yardage I'm shooting. it becomes so natural that many of us call it instinctive. Freds style is a little to loose for me.

Billy


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## LBR (Jan 1, 2004)

> Primarily when an animal presents itself for a shot opportunity that you didn't have time to prepare for or see them coming....


That's one, and I agree it can happen, but like I said before--in my opinion, the bow is not a "jump and shoot" weapon, except maybe on birds like grouse or pheasant. The bow isn't the best weapon for that type of shot, at least IMO. I try to have the dicipline to pass on shots like that myself.



> Some of the biggest names in traditional archery such as Howard Hill, Fred Bear, Byron Fergueson, Ron LaClaire, Stacy Groscup, Frank Addington Jr., G. Fred Asbell, John Shultz


I think it's safe to say these folks are the exception, not the rule. Howard Hill is quoted as saying he'd seen a lot of instinctive shooters, but never seen a good one. Fred Bear got lucky on a lot of hunting shots. Watch some of his old hunting videos, then read "The Adventures of Fred Bear: Fred Bear's Field Notes". The narrator on the films wasn't exactly honest, but Fred was up-front in the book.



> As far as beginners go...I'm more concerned about their arm and shoulder alignment after they have drawn their bow than how they get there.


Guess that's where we differ in opinion. In my experience, it's hard enough to get someone started correctly when the shot is excuted in a slow and deliberate manner. Also much harder to diagnose any form problems when the shot is basically an explosion, with everything in motion from start to finish.

Learning to shoot from different positions is, to me at least, a whole lot different that trying to learn to shoot consistently with everything in motion. You can be slow and controlled from most any position. 

I like the idea of versatility to improve my chances of getting a shot, but I don't like the idea of risky shots on big game. That's just me though.

FWIW, I may not be able to reply any time soon. My dad had a stroke, and we're at the hospital, probably for a few days, for tests.

Chad


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## J. Wesbrock (Dec 17, 2003)

LBR said:


> FWIW, I may not be able to reply any time soon. My dad had a stroke, and we're at the hospital, probably for a few days, for tests.
> 
> Chad


My condolences to you and your family. I'll keep a good thought for your dad.


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

LBR said:


> That's one, and I agree it can happen, but like I said before--in my opinion, the bow is not a "jump and shoot" weapon, except maybe on birds like grouse or pheasant. The bow isn't the best weapon for that type of shot, at least IMO. I try to have the dicipline to pass on shots like that myself.


That is one example...but it happens quite often in the field....especailly if you hunt from the ground...just as a deer standing broadside, walking, running and a quartering away are examples of possible shot opportunities. One thing about animals I'm certain of...they are almost always constantly on the move.

You can either have the discipline to pass on a shot because you haven't practiced it enough and lack the confident and/or skill to make it...OR...you can be disciplined enough to practice the shot to the point you have the skill and the confidence to take it when it presents itself. It's a 2 way street. Either choice would be correct in my book...but only one choice will increase you shot opportunities.



LBR said:


> I think it's safe to say these folks are the exception, not the rule.


I disagree. They were all at the top of their game...whether it be bowhunting, competion archery or trick shooting and they are and were many others that were close...but just not at the top. 

The Swing Draw isn't a fluke because the archers I mentioned had exceptional skill. There's a reason why it works and why they chose to use it at times or as their primary draw style.

Fred Bear was definitely not the most accurate archer in the world...but he was primarily a bowhunter. You would think if the Swing Draw was such a bad techinique for hunting...a man with his experience would have tossed that techinique to the curb.



LBR said:


> Howard Hill is quoted as saying he'd seen a lot of instinctive shooters, but never seen a good one.


Now you're talking aiming techiniques and not drawing techiniques. Aiming techiniques are independent of the drawing techinique. An archer doesn't have to Swing Draw to aim Instinctively.



LBR said:


> In my experience, it's hard enough to get someone started correctly when the shot is excuted in a slow and deliberate manner. Also much harder to diagnose any form problems when the shot is basically an explosion, with everything in motion from start to finish.


The Swing Draw doesn't have to be explosive or executed quickly. It can be slow and deliberate also. The release can also be held or initiated the moment the archer touches anchor...but than we are talking about the release and not the drawing style.



LBR said:


> I like the idea of versatility to improve my chances of getting a shot, but I don't like the idea of risky shots on big game. That's just me though.


I don't like risky shots either. I only take shots I feel very confident in because I have practiced them.



LBR said:


> FWIW, I may not be able to reply any time soon. My dad had a stroke, and we're at the hospital, probably for a few days, for tests.


I'm sooo sorry about you dad. That sucks. I'll be praying for him.

I hope you realize that even though we are debating this...I have no negative feelings toward you. I think we both have been debating this respectfully.

Ray


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## LBR (Jan 1, 2004)

It's around 3:35 am, and I can't sleep, so......

First, thanks for the condolences. Things look good right now, but the outlook is touchy. We just have to wait and see.



> That is one example...but it happens quite often in the field


It varies with where you hunt, what you hunt, and how you hunt--the way I hunt, from tree stands and ground blinds, it doesn't happen often at all. At least it hasn't happened very often to me in the past 25+ years.



> You can either have the discipline to pass on a shot because you haven't practiced it enough and lack the confident and/or skill to make it..


I don't care how good you are--taking a shot at a whitetail busting out of it's bed or running full-bore through the woods is a risky shot even with a rifle or shotgun.



> You would think if the Swing Draw was such a bad techinique for hunting...a man with his experience would have tossed that techinique to the curb.


Fred Bear, Ben Pearson, Howard Hill, etc. were modern bowhunting pioneers. They pushed the limits and tried a lot of things most of us wouldn't consider these days--like 100+ yard shots, lob shots, etc.



> archer doesn't have to Swing Draw to aim Instinctively.





> The Swing Draw doesn't have to be explosive or executed quickly.


I'm referring to Asbell style. You have to shoot instinctively to shoot the way he teaches, and at least in the video is is executed quickly.



> I don't like risky shots either. I only take shots I feel very confident in because I have practiced them.


Like I said........



> I hope you realize that even though we are debating this...I have no negative feelings toward you. I think we both have been debating this respectfully.


Likewise. I just have a different opinion. 

I better get back to the room.

Chad


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## SteveB (Dec 18, 2003)

Best to you and your Dad - will be hoping for a speedy recovery.

Steve


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## LBR (Jan 1, 2004)

Thanks Steve--headed back to the hospital this am. Hopefully he won't have to stay more than another couple of days.

One last point (maybe). Executing the swing draw in a slow, controlled manner pretty much nullifies the point of using the swing draw in the first place, doesn't it? At least from a hunting perspective--it's the archery "quick draw", but if you do it in slow motion what's the point?

If you don't do it in a slow and controlled manner......well, we've already covered all that.

Chad


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

LBR said:


> Executing the swing draw in a slow, controlled manner pretty much nullifies the point of using the swing draw in the first place, doesn't it? At least from a hunting perspective--it's the archery "quick draw", but if you do it in slow motion what's the point?
> 
> Chad


Nullifies what?

Just because an archer uses the Swing Draw doesn't mean they are shooting as fast as they can.

Like I said...everyone at some point has to raise their bow arm up into position to shoot it. If you compared 2 bowhunters...one using the Swing Draw and the other not drawing the bow until their bow arm was in position and they BOTH raised their bow arms at the same speed...the Swing Draw would have the archer at anchor sooner than the other.

How does this help a bowhunter?

It decreases the amount of time the archer is moving...which can be beneficial when a deer or any other animal for that matter has appeared in an opening and the archer still needs to raise his bow arm and get to anchor without spooking the deer.

By learning to draw that way a bowhunter has just increased his choices for certain scenarios...which has increased his versatility and increased his chances for success.

A bowhunter who refuses to learn to draw that way may spook a deer in that situation as they are drawing back the string because they are spending more time moving than what they would have if they were drawing the bow as they were raising their bow arm.

If this doesn't expalin it to you...I'm not sure what will.

Ray


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## longbow billy (May 19, 2008)

:vom:


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## LBR (Jan 1, 2004)

> Nullifies what?


Maybe I'm wrong here, but it seems the main "reason" given for using the swing draw is to get off a quicker shot. Like I said, it's traditional archery's answer to a "quick draw". I don't see the point in doing a quick draw in slow motion.



> How does this help a bowhunter?
> 
> It decreases the amount of time the archer is moving...which can be beneficial when a deer or any other animal for that matter has appeared in an opening and the archer still needs to raise his bow arm and get to anchor without spooking the deer.


Not where I hunt, unless you are totally hidden from the deer's sight. You move fast, and/or at the wrong moment, you are busted. Fast movement will get you busted quicker than slow, controlled movement. Nobody is going to draw and shoot faster than a spooked whitetail can move--swing draw or not. 

Once again, I don't consider a bow to be a "jump and shoot" weapon, especially for deer. I rather loose a shot opportunity than loose a deer because I attempted a stupid shot.

Chad


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## ravensgait (Sep 23, 2006)

Why is it when some can't or wont do a certain thing it is in their minds wrong for everyone. Or as in some cases here anything they don't like or want to do is something that shouldn't be done by anyone..

Asbell's style is Instinctive shooting if you don't shoot instinctively then why even comment on instinctive shooting.

I don't shoot Asbell's style but then for the most part my style isn't all that different I just shot this way before he wrote a book lol.. I have read his first book and I guess I got something from it that most here didn't IE shoot the way that works best for you and the situation. 

How many here can take a shot from 3/4 draw and be confident that they will hit where they want? how about a shot way over to your string hand side or sitting on your butt shooting under a limb 2 feet off the ground?? ETC ETC....Point being that if you shoot any way but instinctive shots like that are very difficult too impossible for you. Same problem Compound shooters have you cant your bow or can't hit your exact draw length and you are chit out of luck.

If I'm taking a shot that I can address before hand, in other words have a little time to prepare for it, I tend to crouch a little , look at and concentrate on the spot I want my arrow to go. Or I can deal with a quick or surprise shooting opportunity and take the shot that is given to me. I don't think about the distance of the shot, I shoot instinctively. In the day I was confident of shots a a pretty good distance (more than 60 yards) now with my eyesight no longer what it was I can't pick a small spot at distances like that so don't shoot out as far as I once did. 

In a slight crouch you can move up or down fluidly or move to one side or the other or turn if needed, you can go to a knee or a crouch smoothly, things you can't do standing like you're on the target range. You can draw as fast or as slowly as the situation requires. The thing is there is nothing set in stone for an instinctive shooter, you don't have to consciously think about the shot, you see an opportunity and you take it. 

I could do the same with a shotgun, shoot from the hip or pretty much any where else and hit the bird I was shooting at. You shoot enough and and challenge yourself and you get better.. So I see Asbell's method as Instinctive shooting, if you want to shoot instinctively it is a good way to learn to do just that. Randy


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## LBR (Jan 1, 2004)

I just post my opinions and experiences, like everyone else. Sometimes it's more than an opinion--it's fact. 

For instance, it's a fact that in around 15 years of shooting in tournaments and at rendevous from TX to PA I've never seen a consistently good archer that shot Asbell style. It's a fact that I've talked to experienced archers that are good shots that developed major problems after trying the Asbell method. It's a fact that consistency is a major factor in accuracy (at least at any distance), and it's much more difficult to be consistent when the shot is executed with everything in motion. It's a fact that your chance of getting a shot at a deer where I hunt with that much movement is slim to none.

I can shoot from odd positions, snap shoot, etc.--it's pretty common to have off-position shots at tournaments, snap-shoot when bowfishing, etc. It's just my opinion, based on my experience, that it's not a good idea to do this on big game because the chance of wounding goes way up.

If you can do this accurately and consistently, you are the exception. Most folks aren't. I post my opinions to hopefully help some folks avoid the mistakes I've made, and keep from learning them the hard way like I have.

Chad


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## ravensgait (Sep 23, 2006)

gee really need to check your facts or find out just what the method being discussed really is

Not the exception, I'm an instinctive shooter and just someone who practices and knows where my arrow is likely to go when I let go of the string.. Been around Archers for well over 4 decades and must have missed the group you hand around with.. Randy


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## bradd7 (Oct 17, 2008)

I think it's just a simple matter whether or not you are satisfied with pie plate groups at 20 yards or tart tin groups. More people will get to tart tin groups much faster with time-proven instruction as opposed to shooting dozens and dozens of arras over decades to hone 'instinctive.'

I'll wager that someone with 6 months of 'good' instruction will out shoot anyone with 6 months of trying to find their instincts. I'll even wager that someone with a years worth of good archery education can out shoot 'most' instinctive guys with years of experience.


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

bradd7 said:


> I think it's just a simple matter whether or not you are satisfied with pie plate groups at 20 yards or tart tin groups. More people will get to tart tin groups much faster with time-proven instruction as opposed to shooting dozens and dozens of arras over decades to hone 'instinctive.'
> 
> I'll wager that someone with 6 months of 'good' instruction will out shoot anyone with 6 months of trying to find their instincts. I'll even wager that someone with a years worth of good archery education can out shoot 'most' instinctive guys with years of experience.


Couldn't agree more...which is why I've always said it is harder to master aiming Instinctively and why it's more impressive when an archer has taught themselves to aim that way to the level of winning archery competitions.

Ray


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## bradd7 (Oct 17, 2008)

I agree Black Wolf!


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

LBR said:


> Maybe I'm wrong here, but it seems the main "reason" given for using the swing draw is to get off a quicker shot. Like I said, it's traditional archery's answer to a "quick draw". I don't see the point in doing a quick draw in slow motion.
> 
> Chad


You're right...the main reason for the Swing Draw is to get a shot off quicker...AND as I stated...even when slowed waaaaay down....it's still quicker than the other drawing techiniques if the bow arms are raised at identical speeds.

Answer this:

2 bowhunters see a deer aproaching within shooting range. Both bowhunters had their bows at their sides before they saw the deer. Both bowhunters raise their bows very slowly at the same speed to not spook the deer. One bowhunter is drawing the bow as he raises it (Swing Draw) and the other doesn't draw the bow until he has raised his bow arm all the way up into position.

Which bowhunter has the quicker draw and which one created the least amount of movement based on time?

Fact is...the Swing Draw is very effective and in some cases even more effective in certain hunting situations than the other drawing techiniques...and vice versa.

The key is knowing how to use it and when.

Fact is...being able to correctly draw both ways and knowing when to use use the right one...increases a bowhunter's versatility and ability to fill his tag.

Ray


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## bradd7 (Oct 17, 2008)

You are right again about learning the swing draw to add to the tool kit, but it also has another advantage.

When I started my sweetheart off, I got her a youths compound because she had never shot before, had no archery strength and I wanted her to learn form before anything else, without the frustration of holding and with the benefit of hitting bullseyes. Although she was only pulling 26lbs before let off, it was hard for her so I taught her the swing,push-pull draw to make it easier. It worked!!! Now she does it without thinking but instead of wobbling all over the place, she can bring the bow right up to peek, sight and anchor and is aiming within microseconds. So, for using higher weight bows, the swing has this advantage too.

In fact, although I shoot only target, I am not a big fan of the hold-up, point and draw. I feel that it's wasted energy that could be used for calming down and aiming. So my technique is to get the bow up, back muscles working and at anchor as quickly as possible. 

When I did hunt (in my youth-bunnies, groundhogs, birds etc) I still used the swing draw but held at anchor until I acquired the target for a sure kill....so that I could lead the shot if needed.


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

bradd7,

Another very valid point. It is physically easier to draw a bow with the Swing Draw than with the other stlye.

The easiest way to draw a heavier bow is to raise it above your head and begin drawing from that position as you lower your bow arm.

I primarally draw the same way as you described most of the time unless I feel the situation calls for me to get my bow arm up first.

I almost always hold at anchor between a split second and 3 sec. with whatever draw method I'm using.

The only time I release at the moment of hitting anchor...is when I'm shooting at a very fast moving target.

The speed of my release is related to the speed of my draw. It's very rythmic. If I draw fast...I usually shoot fast. If I draw slowly...I usually hold longer.

Ray


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## ravensgait (Sep 23, 2006)

How much are you thinking of wagering Brad?? I'd take you up on that at unknown distances say between 30 and 100 yards, but you have to make it worth my while  

I've seen people shoot bows with some rather different styles and methods which seemed to work for them . I likely seem to be a bit hard on some of the respondents here, well I guess I get a bit tired of the 'My way or the highway' crowd. It is one thing to state an informed opinion but to keep on pounding something goes beyond just stating your opinion. 

The thing is there are many different ways to do most anything. The hard part is finding the one that works for YOU. Not Joe Blowhard but you...

You can use any method or style and if you spend the time required to become proficient it'll work for you. Heck you could start out shooting behind your back and if you sling enough arrows you'll get good at it . 

Shooting Instinctively is like throwing a ball ETC ETC for whatever reason it comes easier to some than others, some can get is quickly other have to work harder at it and may never be really good. Gap shooting ETC is like using a sight it will get you where you want to be quicker but you have to be better at judging range to use these methods at any distance . Just like in most things there are pluses and minuses .. Randy


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## bradd7 (Oct 17, 2008)

Ravensgait:

I agree with you. Anything can be perfected with enough time, energy and effort...even unique archery forms. We are talking learning curve here though. 

I am not advocating anyone go beyond what is most comfortable with them. I am simply pointing out proven facts that the learning curve is shorter with technical instruction. Otherwise, everyone in the Olympic instruction programs would be teaching 'instinctive'. 

My idea is to learn as much as I can from all sources, then to take only what I need for me to shoot the best that I can.

This isn't another 'them' versus 'us' thread.

In fact, the truth be known, I just quit trying to learn the "bow up straight, concentrating on GAP" method because, with an aged curved spine, it WAS uncomfortable for me. My method, since a young age, was always a cant/ split-vision, and, with this method over the past 4 months, I dented all of my aluminum arrows from tightly grouped hits. BUT, in the past few months of being back to archery, I made a true effort to learn as much as I could about ALL instructions (including B.E.S.T.) and, after trying many of them out, found out that I was using many of the form basics already. I just adopted them to my 'style' and improved what I could, wherever I could. I am not satisfied with merely flingin' arras and hitting pie sized plates at 20 yards. I want to improve on every shot. So at least I have the knowledge that I need to try or adapt when I am ready. 

On the other hand, as I have pointed out, I seem to have perfected some form errors so that I could make them my own.


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## AKRuss (Jan 10, 2003)

I've read a few of Fred's books and had the opportunity to see him demonstrate his shooting techniqe. It is all very interesting and I enjoy reading his stuff and he seems like a nice guy. There are aspects of his shooting style that I suppose I picked up and some that just didn't suit me. Fred shoots very smoothly and did not appeared to be rushed or snap shooting. Unfortunately I developed target panic and began snap shooting using a swing draw but that was really my fault. I've looked at a lot of different shooting styles and try to develop what works for me. I've always assumed everyone else does the same.


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## kegan (Aug 28, 2006)

AKRuss makes a really good point that I'm suprised hasn't ended this argument way before: there is no one way to do all this stuff. It's archery- one of the most variable sports in the world. What's works for one isn't the best for the next. 

Hill's form is far from perfect, but for someone like myself who struggles a great deal trying to get to 'proper form' even with light weight bows, it's comfortable and something I can eaasily practice for long periods (provided the weather permits). Consistency being one of the big factors of archery success. It may not make you a very good target shot, but it certainly works for hunting.

Sorry for birnging Hill into a discussion about Asbell, but I was just trying to make a point.


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## Teucer (Aug 19, 2007)

*Timing*

My problem with the asbell style is the timing. When I shoot and I'm in the groove you can notice that my shhoting form follows a timing pattern. I find that trying to duplicate the time I swing up and draw varies if I shoot the asbell style. If I shoot with the bow raised up, It is way easier to duplicate the tempo of the shot sequence. But hey if you can do it who am I to say no.


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## LBR (Jan 1, 2004)

I don't have the time to get into it right now--headed back to the hospital.

I'll just say that it's no coincidence that the better shooters all have similar shooting styles, and it's not Asbell style.

If you *have* to swing draw/shoot quickly, you are overbowed.

It's not a "my way or the highway" thing. If you shoot better when wearing pink panties and makeup, more power to you. That makes you the exception, not the rule. I've often said there are few "rules" in this sport that apply equally to everyone, but there are some things that can't be argued with any logic. It's simple to prove me wrong--name a top shooter that shoots Asbell style.



> Fact is...the Swing Draw is very effective and in some cases even more effective in certain hunting situations than the other drawing techiniques...and vice versa


I have agreed that there can be instances that a swing draw will allow you to get a shot. You said "many", but you have offered maybe two similar scenarios. Drawing while raising the bow vs. raising the bow, then drawing has the exact same amount of movement. What is more likely to spook an animal--more movement at given time, or less? Which archer is more likely to miss/wound--one who takes their time on a shot, or one who shoots in a split second?

Gotta run.

Chad


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

LBR said:


> I'll just say that it's no coincidence that the better shooters all have similar shooting styles, and it's not Asbell style.


Better shooters at what? 3D, Field Archery, NFAA 300 rounds, wing shooting, bowhunting???

If it's target competition...I agree because there generally is no real need to get a shot off quickly or a need to not spook the target 



LBR said:


> I have agreed that there can be instances that a swing draw will allow you to get a shot.


Than you agree that the Swing Draw can increase a bowhunters versaltility and increases their chances of filling their tags...which has been my point all along.



LBR said:


> You said "many", but you have offered maybe two similar scenarios.


I said "many" as it applies with a specific scenario that happens quite often while hunting...especially while hunting on the ground and in thick woods.

Drawing while raising the bow vs. raising the bow, then drawing has the exact same amount of movement...BUT one of them is about twice as fast as the other if raising the bow and drawing are at the exact same speed. Guess which one 



LBR said:


> What is more likely to spook an animal--more movement at given time, or less?


"More movement" can be measured by the length of time to move and/or the amount of movement within a space.

Again...the key is to know how and when to use a specific draw style to increase your chances of getting the shot off without spooking the animal.



LBR said:


> Which archer is more likely to miss/wound--one who takes their time on a shot, or one who shoots in a split second?


Time isn't a factor...unless an archer NEEDS that time to execute a shot properly. 

The archer that is most likely to miss/wound an animal is the archer who isn't prepared for the shot, lacks confidence, lacks skill or is rushing the shot beyond his capability.

Ray 

PS...how's your dad?


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## anglingarcher (Jul 10, 2006)

The concept of the swing draw is a joke. I am with LBR right from his first post. If you are a hunter first and foremost swinging the bow is a recipe for disaster. Since I do both, I have never seen a good target shooter do a swing draw like Asbell.


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## kegan (Aug 28, 2006)

anglingarcher said:


> The concept of the swing draw is a joke. I am with LBR right from his first post. If you are a hunter first and foremost swinging the bow is a recipe for disaster. Since I do both, I have never seen a good target shooter do a swing draw like Asbell.


It seemed to have worked for Howard Hill. I've never seen, read, or heard of him ever bringing the bow up first and then pulling back, and he was the greatest bow hunter of all time.


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## ravensgait (Sep 23, 2006)

Big difference between standing on the line at a tournament and trying to stick an arrow into a deer. Target shooting is great but if you have to hunt using only that form you're going to have to pass up a lot of shots. A hunting archer AKA Bow Hunter tries to be ready for any opportunity that comes their way. 

Hey you want to gap shoot use a sight or what have you, good for you . Just don't try to tell us what we and many many others do doesn't work because you are wrong. So instinctive shooting is beyond you, no biggie you've obviously found something else that works..... Randy


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## LBR (Jan 1, 2004)

Still at the hospital, maybe get to come home Mon or Tues. Very limited computer acess here, but dad is getting an x-ray right now so I have a little time to kill.

First, I've never claimed to be any kind of expert, coach, guru, etc. I just give my opinions and experiences, so take 'em for what they are worth. I'm lucky to know a couple of the tops shooters in the U.S., along with several that are well above average, and I like to pick their brains. Most are also very accomplished hunters.

My experiences have been just the opposite as far as "needing" the swing draw for hunting. I've used it once on a deer, and that was only because I'd fallen asleep in the blind. If I'd been awake and alert, it never would have happened. If I'd thought about it, I wouldn't have risked the shot. I don't like quick shots on large game--too much can go wrong. Again, I don't consider the bow to be a "jump and shoot" type weapon, and sticking to this has never "cost" me a shot.

I can shoot "instinctively", just not nearly as well. I don't have to swing draw to do this. Extra movement, especially fast movement, definately has gotten me busted many, many times.



> Than you agree that the Swing Draw can increase a bowhunters versaltility and increases their chances of filling their tags...which has been my point all along.


Actually, no. You might get off a shot you normally wouldn't, but the chances of spooking the game, wounding, or missing go up exponentially. Better chance of getting a shot, maybe. Better chance of filling a tag, definately not.

I think dad is back--gotta scoot.

Chad


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

LBR said:


> Actually, no. You might get off a shot you normally wouldn't, but the chances of spooking the game, wounding, or missing go up exponentially. Better chance of getting a shot, maybe. Better chance of filling a tag, definately not.
> 
> Chad


This is simple Probability and Statistics.

When a bowhunter is in the woods hunting an animal that is almost always moving the scenarios and opportunities are constantly changing.

If a bowhunter ONLY prepares for that one shot opportunity where he HAS to get his bow arm up and into position before he can draw it than he has limited himself from all the other opportunities where the archer may need to draw the bow as he raises his arm to get the shot off before the deer is no longer within range or within the shooting lane.

There's a certain skill some bowhunters posses that tells them how and when to draw the bow. Some limit themselves to only one while others teach themselves to be more versatile.

All other things being equal...I would place my money on the bowhunter that is more versatile than the one that limits himself to only one techinique.

Ray


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

LBR said:


> Extra movement, especially fast movement, definately has gotten me busted many, many times.
> 
> Chad



That tells me right there...that you haven't learned how and when to use the Swing Draw or move properly if you've gotten busted many, many times.

Again...it's NOT about moving as fast as you can. It's about KNOWING how fast you need to get to anchor and how fast you can get to anchor without spooking the animal.

Ray


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## jcain556 (Nov 29, 2008)

These "techniques" are designed to build a foundation with solid fundamentals. Practicing other techniques puts more tools in your toolbelt so when the shot presents itself you have the answer. In tactical firearms training you practice shooting from different positions and under different scenarios so you can respond accordingly. Your way is not the right way but the right way for you. We should all strive to learn more.


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## LBR (Jan 1, 2004)

I can and have shot from many different positions at tournaments. Some of the tournamennts I've shot in are downright sadistic the way some shots are set up--the original Howard Hill, the Old Fartes, the TN Classic, the old Lofton Classic, etc. etc. etc. Standing up, sitting down, lying down, leaning, squatting, sitting on a "horse", moving targets, timed targets, targets where you don't know when the shot will happen--you name it. I've also shot from odd positions when hunting, and based on both of these experiences I don't recommend it. 

Some of you seem to imply the reason I don't advocate shooting at game like this is because you think I can't be versitile in my own shooting. That is simply not the case. I don't advocate Asbell style because it's much more difficult for a beginner, it's much easier to develop bad habits (short drawing, snap shooting, missing anchor, etc.). I know of experienced shooters that have developed big problems from trying it, and I've yet to experience or hear a good argument as to why a hunter or target shooter will benefit from it. IMO, there are much better ways to learn and shoot. That's it in a nutshell.

The "reason" for using it is because you can get off a shot faster, then a post or three later it's not at all about getting off a shot faster???

Again, my opinions, my experiences. I don't claim to know it all, but I am honest in my opinions.



> That tells me right there...that you haven't learned how and when to use the Swing Draw or move properly if you've gotten busted many, many times.


That tells me you haven't paid attention to what I said. If you care to go back and look, I said I've only used a swing draw ONCE when hunting, and was successful--completely concealed in a pop-up blind. I said MOVEMENT has gotten me busted many, many times. I've been busted for blinking at the wrong moment. 'Course deer are much more jumpy in some places than they are others. I've been picked off sitting still 25' up a tree, and I've been undetected 12' up a tree and moving--in different states.



> Again...it's NOT about moving as fast as you can. It's about KNOWING how fast you need to get to anchor and how fast you can get to anchor without spooking the animal.


I agree--but that has nothing to do with the swing draw, or Asbell style--or at least no more than any other technique when hunting.

Like I said early on, learning to swing draw has been useful for bowfishing and birds. If you draw slowly, I don't see the benefit--one can work as well as the other. Well, except if you are in the habit of drawing your bow as you raise your arm, and the animal hangs up behind a bush. That could be an aggravating situation, having to stay at full draw for a long time. Some folks have a devil of a time letting down without shooting once they hit anchor--another disadvantage.

I try to sit with my bow positioned so, when the time comes, it takes as little movement as possible to get it in position. If I have less than a second for this, the "swing draw" might give a slight advantage, but that's the kind of shot I'll pass on anyway. If I have time to move slowly and deliberately, I have plenty of time to get positioned. I don't conciously gap, and I don't hold at anchor for very long. I can shoot moving targets just fine. 

Anyhow, it's been fun. Gotta run--dad is doing much, much better and might come home tomorrrow. I'm headed back to relieve my brother.

Chad


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## ravensgait (Sep 23, 2006)

See Chad that is what bothers me about you sometimes. You state your OPINION and then go after anyone that doesn't see it YOUR way. This thread is a good example, You stated your case right off and then again and again and again and again. Seems to me that you feel it is your way or the highway which is why I've made that comment to you more than once.

Quote""The "reason" for using it is because you can get off a shot faster, then a post or three later it's not at all about getting off a shot faster???""

Maybe you need to read more carefully and take a real look at the method being discussed as you don't seem to understand it at all.

Quote""Again, my opinions, my experiences. I don't claim to know it all, but I am honest in my opinions.""

You say you don't claim to know it all but argue with anyone who has a different opinion. I can't recall anyone saying they felt you were dishonest! closed minded maybe but not dishonest.. Hey we heard you the first time the 3rd time it gets a bit irritating . If you're not the expert then open your mind you might just learn something.. Randy


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## LBR (Jan 1, 2004)

I'm not "going after" anyone at all--sorry I came across that way. I'm just trying to understand--the statements seem to contradict themselves (the swing draw is better because it's faster...then it's not about how fast you can get a shot off???), and I keep repeating what I've said because evidently the point obviously isn't getting across. For instance, the quote I posted in my last reply--I never said I'd been busted many times using the swing draw--but that was the implication given.

I had to learn a lot of things the hard way. I try to help others avoid a lot of the mistakes I've made. I used to think "instinctive" was the only proper way to shoot a traditional bow--along with lots of other misconceptions. I didn't just wake up and decide that was wrong one day--I've experienced it, and talked with archers that have probably forgotten more about the sport than most of us will ever know.

Like I said before (I know--repeating myself again), it will be easy to prove me wrong. Simply list the better archers who use the swing draw--if it's better, or even as good, as a stationary draw then surely there's plenty of top archers who do it. Tell me specifically how it actually works better for hunting without vague referances or simple opinion. Specify where my opinions are incorrect, rather than just implying I don't know what I'm talking about or don't understand it.

Maybe I'm the exception? I've only been a bowhunter for just under 20 years, and I generally bowhunt throughout the entire season (from Oct. 1 to Jan 31 here), and I have yet to experience the "many situations" where the swing draw will allow a shot where other techniques won't. I know a lot of people who bowhunt, and I've never heard any of them talk about how the swing draw is superior in any situation.

Along with offering my opinions, I AM trying to learn something here--but it takes a bit more than I've seen so far to convince me, after so many years of experiences being very different.

Chad


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## Tajue17 (Aug 18, 2005)

you guys are getting a pissing match over something as simple as traditional archery... listen if anyone read the 'traditional Bowhunter" magazine that had the interview with G.fred he said he did not like the pull back method for one reason and that was it obstructed your view,, I can get the date and year when i get home.. 

listen what works for you is the one that works for you, this isn't training wheels or JOAD archery where everything has to be perfected and done the same--> nobody in a million years will ever have the perfect "kill all" tactic that works perfect every time in archery... 

did you guys know that if you sharpen the tips of your english longbow and you run out of arrows you can throw that at the deer like a spear,, I'm just not sure if you should just throw it or if you should hold your arm back first for the least amount of movement :teeth:


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## Teucer (Aug 19, 2007)

*good one Taj*

Next time I miss with my longbow, I'm going to try that. I agree this is traditional and one of the reason for traditional was the ability in hunting situations to shoot in unorthodox form. the big problem with threads like this is there are Trad shooters who come from strong FITA style shooting to traditional style and demand that the bow be shot with strict form. Then there are former compound shooters looking to rid themselves of the mechanical advantage and shoot somewhat simpler. I think we have two schools of thought but the simple stick and string keeps us humble. I always wonder, you never read about "form" when it come to our ancestors. Whether it was Native Americans, African Bushmen, English Longbowmen, or the Asiatic horse archers. They all seem to have concentrated on building strength and shooting high weight bows. I've never come accross an ancient form document. Could be wrong, would love to read about it.


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

Teucer said:


> I always wonder, you never read about "form" when it come to our ancestors. Whether it was Native Americans, African Bushmen, English Longbowmen, or the Asiatic horse archers. They all seem to have concentrated on building strength and shooting high weight bows. I've never come accross an ancient form document. Could be wrong, would love to read about it.


Ya just haven't looked in the right places 

Kyudo is the Japanese art of shooting the bow. It's been around for a very long time and utilizes and teaches very specific form techiniques on how to shoot a bow and arrow.

The key factor that pretty much ALL archery techiniques share in common is developing consistantcy and accuracy....which is why form however that may look like...is so important...especially at longer distances.

I agree with alot of what you said. Hunting situations often can put a bowhunter in unique situations that a target archer doesn't need or have to prepare for...which is why versatility can be an important factor for many bowhunters.

People often read about a certain techinique and try it without thoroughly understanding it and often times end up teaching themselves incorrectly and than come to the conclusion that it must be an inferior or a worthless techinique...especially when they come across another techinique that makes more sense to them or where someone correctly teaches them this new techinique.

Studing, learning and understanding FITA archery will generally make any archer more consistant and accurate...what the bowhunter should do is learn to take those fundamentals and adapt them to certain situations they feel they will be exposed to in the field.

Ray


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## Teucer (Aug 19, 2007)

*Kyodo*

Wolfman you got me on that one, forgot about the Japanese. But does anyone think that our Native Americans setup targets and practiced with perfect archery form that some people demand we all do. I think our Native Ameicans learned how to use the bow by using it, on small game, big game, and some cowboys that got too close. I wish we could see into the past and learn from the best, because they relied on the bow.

So I turned on the boob tube and watched the two DVD's about traditional archery, and I have to say the Dean Torges probably has the purest form I've seen. Very smooth and natural. Have to say I picked up my bow and tried to shoot similarly and yes it did feel smooth. But like anything else, once I get the timing down, the rest is up to the arrow.


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## Aspirin Buster (Mar 25, 2004)

*Just ask*

This thread keeps going----I hadn't seen it for awhile. First of all, I hope Chad's father is doing better.

Second, if anyone has any questions on my shooting style I'd be happy to address it. I can't really say much about any of the other folks styles...but the late Rev. Stacy Groscup and I shot about the same way. After he died I dubbed my style "The Groscup method" to keep his name around the sport... 

I knew Fred Bear, have seen Byron's shows, and have watched Howard Hill videos but wouldn't try and comment on their styles. Ask me if you have any questions from my style...

You guys have really put a lot of time and effort into this thread...congrats.


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

Great to see ya here, Frank :thumbs_up

Ray


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## Teucer (Aug 19, 2007)

*Frank*

So I'm going to bite on this, what is your style ? 

Be gentle please

Thanks


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## SteveB (Dec 18, 2003)

It must be the Asbell style - why else would he offer to describe it on a thread about Asbell?


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## bradd7 (Oct 17, 2008)

> But does anyone think that our Native Americans setup targets and practiced with perfect archery form that some people demand we all do.


Yes they did! In fact they played games with the bow and arrows, like shooting small balls of fur, or shooting through a moving ring. They also had inter-tribal competitions...at least in Canada, and the Algonkian Nations throughout the Eastern States.

I have studied this extensively and have been allowed access to the storage facilities of the Museum of Civilization of Canada(unique). 

Not all Native Peoples were allowed to be hunters. Being dependent on game for food or trade, meant that they had to prove their abilities before they would be allowed to join the hunters. Stalking and shooting were the two major components. The had to know how to 'hunt' and 'hoping' was out of the question.

As for their gear, in the museum, many of the old bows had simple sticks used as rests and MOST had some sort of sighting device (leather around the riser, pin tied on etc) *YES...SIGHTS ARE TRAD!!!!* Longbows were not used much in the dense woodlands (much denser than now) but the smaller bows were favored and traded for - the smaller Shoshone Osage being the prime hunting bow. 

Longbows were mostly used in open situations and mainly for war over distance.

Each Nation had it's own Masters of the Barebow and boyers, arrow makers and knappers. Well made, tuned gear was highly respected and sought out. (Mohawks were originally called Kanien'Kehaka which translates to "People of the firestone (flint) and along with being mainly farmers, they also knapped some of the best arrows points.)

Not everyone shot a bow either. Although it was the main tool for hunting, it was simply a past time for some. 

So, armed with these facts, I can imagine that each situation called for different aiming or shooting techniques. I am also sure that they would have the exact same discussions about which technique is better for the right situation. The only differences would be the names of the 'styles' and the people discussing the issue!

Sound familiar????


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

My research also indicates some of the same things that bradd7 is mentioning.

I know the Cherokee had a target competition called The Corn Stalk Shoot if I remember correctly. Accuracy and penetration were scored by shooting at a bale made out of cornstalks at distances around 100yrds.

If anyone has shot at those distances...ya know your form has to be spot on if you want to hit the target consistantly.

We're definitely not the fist people to debate archery techiniques...and I'm sure we won't be the last 

Ray


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## flycaster (Jul 28, 2008)

bradd7 and BLACK WOLF- I've learned a lot from your posts on this thread.. Much appreciated.

Chuck


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

flycaster said:


> bradd7 and BLACK WOLF- I've learned a lot from your posts on this thread.. Much appreciated.
> 
> Chuck


You're welcome, Chuck. 

I don't claim to be an expert or know-it-all on anything...even though I might come across that way to some people...but there are a few things I have studied frontwards and backwards regarding archery and try to look outside the box beyond just my personal experiences.

Ray


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## bradd7 (Oct 17, 2008)

Thanks Chuck. 

I don't pretend to be a know it all either but I am Native and have researched my heritage quite a bit. 

Glad you appreciate the info I can share!


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## Aspirin Buster (Mar 25, 2004)

*The secret*

Well, I look at what I want to hit. That's my "secret". 

That's about as simple as it gets. Like the late Rev. Stacy Groscup, I shoot purely instinctive. That means I don't worry about distance, looking down an arrow, at the bow, or at anything else. I don't have a problem with GAP or point of aim shooting but that's not what I do.

I shot two hours or more per day as a kid into young adulthood, so I spent some time developing my form and getting the hang of it. I place a lot of importance on having the bow properly tuned, arrows set up to the bow, etc. The mental side of shooting is also a high priority. 

I also won't tell people to "do what I do.." because hand-eye coordination differs, abilities differ, etc. Instinctive shooting is a very personal style of shooting. I have some practice techniques I use when teaching new shooters but I won't ever say, "do what I do.."

My two cents.


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

Frank,

What do you do specifically for the mental aspect of archery and what do you specifically concern yourself with in regards to form?

Thanks,

Ray


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## Aspirin Buster (Mar 25, 2004)

Ray
With regards to the mental aspects, I would advise reading Al Henderson's book--- The Mental Approach. Al Henderson was a former Olympic coach that also owned an archery shop in Arizona. He wrote a column for ARCHERY magazine in the old days and was a huge advocate on the mental side of shooting. "ON TARGET COMMUNICATION" should have a website that sells Al's book.

I also use NLP-- Nuero Linguistic Programing. Wyatt Woodsmall taught this to me. You can google Wyatt or NLP. It is simple yet complicated... Wyatt may very well have a book out you could read.

As for form, this varies with my shooting style (behind the back or regular) and with regards to compound, recurve, or longbow. I do like to anchor with my pointer finger in the corner of my mouth and try and get a clean release and follow thru.

Hope this helps.


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

Frank,

I'm looking forward to researching more of the suggestions you made on the mental aspects of archery. Should be interesting

Thanks,

Ray


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## Aspirin Buster (Mar 25, 2004)

Ray
There is a lot line about NLP but I would advise trying to focus on the work that Wyatt Woodsmall does in this area. He is who came here and worked with me and he's considered one of the father's of this process. I can't really do an adequate job of explaining it but I can assure you that the mental part of shooting at the top level is about 90% mental. That I know, whether we're talking Olympic shooting, 3-D, bowhunting or exhibition shooting. In instinctive shooting especially this plays a huge roll.

Frank


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

Frank,

Curious...have you ever delt with target panic?

Ray


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## Aspirin Buster (Mar 25, 2004)

Ray
Howdy, I don't really remember that ever causing me much trouble... shooting at fast moving aerial targets I rarely have time to think about it.

Target shooting, well, I have had it give me fits a few times in the last 37 years. I am convinced target panic is a mental problem. It's almost like you over think the shot or freeze up. 

A well known bowhunter once called me after an African hunting trip and we talked through the issues he was having. I think that sooner or later we all can be victims to it but I always work through it mentally... that is the key.

Email me if you need more specific info. My email is attached to my show website.

Frank


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