# KE out of a recurve for whitetail



## Jamesw (Sep 14, 2007)

Really takes very little to shoot through deer.Sharp broadheads and reasonable arrows in the soft spots usally results in two holes.I don't have any idea of the min but have shot through several with big broadheads from bows that had ke in the 25-26lb range.Killing deer with arrows has more to do with broadhead and shot selection than with numbers. jmo


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## ravensgait (Sep 23, 2006)

Kinetic Energy and speed sell compounds they don't kill deer.... Randy


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## elk country rp (Sep 5, 2005)

my little 50# horsebow will put a steel force 2 blade through my garage door & i know it's tougher than a deer!


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## Raider2000 (Oct 21, 2003)

I have a picture here that although was shot with a compound bow it still showes the power of what one is capable of..

The Bow:
2003 Hoyt Razortec 60# @ 27.5"
The Arrow:
Gold Tip 55/75 Hunter w/ G5 Montec 100gr.
The shot:
45 yards to the Cup.









I'm in agreeance with all that said that sharp broadheads kill not KE but with a sharp broadhead you'd be supprised at what your bow is capable of.

BTW I use this as a demostration for the Hunter Education course as to be sure of your target & beyond drill not only applies to firearms because the hunter that you may not of paid attention to may share the same arrow that killed the deer.


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## Jamesw (Sep 14, 2007)

This was a 17yd shot using a 2" wide fixed blade broadhead with bleeder blades.19 lbs KE and cleanly cut 3 ribs going in and made a disaster out of the brisket coming out.I think it clearly shows baseing killing power on KE numbers alone really means very little when sharp broadheads are involved.


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## sback05 (Oct 26, 2006)

*awesome*

thanks guys. I figured 28-30 ft lbs out of my 50# bow so I guess I'll put a mangus stinger 4 blade on the end and see what happens.


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## Jamesw (Sep 14, 2007)

I normally shoot in that range and have no trouble with deer and hogs.The stinger is a good little broadhead for shooting on lighter weight arrows.I used them one year on some 385gn arrows with good resultsYou will have no trouble if you shoot deer in the sides.


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## trapperDave (Mar 12, 2005)

ravensgait said:


> kinetic energy and speed sell compounds they don't kill deer.... Randy



exactly!


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## dbowers (Mar 24, 2004)

Here's an interesting article that put my mind to ease about KE and traditional bows.

See attachment


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## SlowBowInMO (Dec 4, 2003)

KE has about as much to do with bowhunting as what you had for lunch yesterday. James posted a great example of why.


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## Eldermike (Mar 24, 2009)

dbowers said:


> Here's an interesting article that put my mind to ease about KE and traditional bows.
> 
> See attachment


Great article. Even KE is limited in fully explaining blunt shaped projectiles such as rifle bullets, but it's useful as a comparison method for such projectiles, as long as a standard test method is used. 

Momentum is better for arrows but still limited. KE is the thing that's not conserved in a collision with a soft body, while Momentun is conserved if friction is not to high. So the energy that is used is KE either way. It all gets very confusing. The example of shooting a sharp broadhead and a 45 bullet through a 5 gallon bucket of sand shows this fact, they both turned MV into heat and stopped moving. 
What should be done is the creation of a standard test method that fully accounts for the types of collisions seen in hunting arrows and points.
My guess is, sharp is the most important thing, weight is next, velocity is last and only necessary to get from point A to point B.


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## otacon122 (Jun 13, 2009)

So as far as broadheads go, on a 30# Martin Jaguar Takedown at 30 inch draw, the maximum range I would be able to kill a deer with a set of Martin Cedar Hunting Arrows and RedHead Blackout broadheads would be what, exactly?


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## sback05 (Oct 26, 2006)

otacon122 said:


> So as far as broadheads go, on a 30# Martin Jaguar Takedown at 30 inch draw, the maximum range I would be able to kill a deer with a set of Martin Cedar Hunting Arrows and RedHead Blackout broadheads would be what, exactly?


with that not being a COC head I'm not sure. 
I am shooting a 50# jaguar takedown at 27" with goldtip expedition hunters and a mangus stinger 4 blade head. I will be limiting my shots to under 25 yards.


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## DwayneR (Feb 23, 2004)

> any idea on how much Kinetic Energy is the minimum for shooting a whitetail?


 Most will agree on about 25KE...for a ethical kill with a little room for error.

But at 25KE, you should have a extremely sharp broadhead, and no expandables.

The most important thing, is the broadhead. Nice and sharp and COC? No sweat.


Dwayne


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## otacon122 (Jun 13, 2009)

Actually, the RedHead Blackout is Cut-On-Contact design. Here's a pic:










These are designed the same as the G5 Outdoors Striker, just $10 less.

Stainless steel blades covered in a non-reflective Carbon Black coating to minimize visibility by the hapless target.


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## Eldermike (Mar 24, 2009)

otacon122 said:


> So as far as broadheads go, on a 30# Martin Jaguar Takedown at 30 inch draw, the maximum range I would be able to kill a deer with a set of Martin Cedar Hunting Arrows and RedHead Blackout broadheads would be what, exactly?


Deer have big ears for a reason: Sound is 1150 feet per second and deer are just slightly slower when they have to be. The sound you make shooting an arrow will make it to the deer 10 times faster than the arrow. It all takes place in about a second. My experience deer drop when they react to a sound. At an average (over the distance) of 115 fps the deer could drop just far enough for a painful non-lethal high back hit on a shot of 30 yards. That gives the deer .9 second warning of impending danger. Anything other than this outcome on such a shot is luck. IMHO

Quiet bows are quiter than loud bows but a deer can hear any bow. This is where 300fps cam bows have the advantage. I choose to understand my constraints and hunt close.


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## otacon122 (Jun 13, 2009)

I may not have used bows before, but I have used other weapons enough to be able to compensate for what the target is doing. Since deer drop in reaction to sounds, common sense would say aim your shot lower than you normally would, so that when the deer drops, the shot goes through the vitals and the deer actually moves INTO the shot instead of away from it.

"Leading off" the target is a common tactic used against moving targets or targets that can react to your shot faster than the shot can get to him. It is a tactic every weapons user needs to learn.

The trick to success with this tactic is aiming in such a way that the target unintentionally moves towards your projectile instead of away from it.


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## SandSquid (Sep 2, 2008)

otacon122 said:


> on a 30# Martin Jaguar Takedown at 30 inch draw, the maximum range I would be able to kill a deer with a set of Martin Cedar Hunting Arrows and RedHead Blackout broadheads would be what, exactly?


As far back as you can _accurately _put one in the vitals.


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## Jamesw (Sep 14, 2007)

Trust me.You can do all the leading you want to do on a deer at 30yds with a 30lb bow and it will make no difference.At 30yds a deer could change his mind and change directions 3 times before your arrow gets there. A rutting whitetail coming by the stand at 10yds is one thing.He has his mind on other stuff.But shooting at a deer at 30 that will hear that bow go off is a crap shoot with most any bow.To try it with a 30lb recurve you better have a tame deer and a rabbits foot in every pocket. LOL


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## sback05 (Oct 26, 2006)

this is what I meant by COC:


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## elk country rp (Sep 5, 2005)

lol- you'll only think that you can predict a ******'s reaction until shoot an arrow at one.......
i've had them duck arrows from a 300fps compound at 30 yds, then laugh at me & calmly walk away. they can duck & swap ends much faster than you think. 30 yards with traditional gear for whiteys isn't something i'm gonna try (muleys & speed goats may be a different story- i haven't seen them react too much to the shot).

nope, for traditional hunting, i'll stick with a scary sharp fixed blade on a heavy arrow shot at close range from an accurate bow & skip the KE equations. i fully admit to being a KE freak with my compound (95ft/lbs from my former hunting bow), but that's a completely different animal to me.


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## rattus58 (Jul 9, 2007)

*Hyper-velocity the answer ??*



Eldermike said:


> Deer have big ears for a reason: Sound is 1150 feet per second and deer are just slightly slower when they have to be. The sound you make shooting an arrow will make it to the deer 10 times faster than the arrow. It all takes place in about a second. My experience deer drop when they react to a sound. At an average (over the distance) of 115 fps the deer could drop just far enough for a painful non-lethal high back hit on a shot of 30 yards. That gives the deer .9 second warning of impending danger. Anything other than this outcome on such a shot is luck. IMHO
> 
> Quiet bows are quiter than loud bows but a deer can hear any bow. This is where 300fps cam bows have the advantage. I choose to understand my constraints and hunt close.


I'm curious where you get the 115fps average over the distance value from, and is that meant to be over 30 yards?

I don't think that anyone disputes that faster gets there quicker but I might like to know how much the shooter is responsible for the "duck" that deer seem to execute successfully even against the fastest bows.

The speed of sound... I've not seen any study on the noise of bows and the sorta terrestial "lomcevak" these deer perform, but I've seen enough video of deer to recognize that this is not universal, and it is not quite as easy for me to accept that "speed" would have made the difference in many of the "shots" I've seen on video.... a poor medium at best when you don't get the whole of the experience to evaluate.

Aloha ...  :beer:


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## Eldermike (Mar 24, 2009)

I took a piece of aluminum arrow shaft out of a deer I killed a few years ago. I saw a bump on it's hind end and cut into it and pulled out a short piece of arrow, the head had completely dissolved away and the thing had healed over.


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## Eldermike (Mar 24, 2009)

rattus58 said:


> I'm curious where you get the 115fps average over the distance value from, and is that meant to be over 30 yards?
> 
> I don't think that anyone disputes that faster gets there quicker but I might like to know how much the shooter is responsible for the "duck" that deer seem to execute successfully even against the fastest bows.
> 
> ...



I am guessing at an average velocity, we always use starting velocity with guns or bows but things slow down. Same is true for estimated KE, it's usually based on 10 feet from the bow and is a useless number at 30 yards. It's all for comparing one thing to another and not for predicting what will actually happen at 30 yards.

I said there is an advantage to speed compared to reaction time of deer, but I agree with your premis that it's not enough. I don't shoot 30 yards at deer unless it's got gun powder in it and a trigger on it.


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## otacon122 (Jun 13, 2009)

The reason I asked what the maximum range was on a 30# by 30" bow is because all the calculators I've used all say the bow with a 400-grain arrow doesn't produce enough power to ethically kill a deer.


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## SandSquid (Sep 2, 2008)

Imagine a world with no hypothetical situations.











Speed of sound @ 20°C (68°F) = 1127.2965879265091 F.P.S.
Lets suppose the speed of arrow = 350 F.P.S.

What a spooked deer will actually do in that time span, is anybodies guess.

None of the "calculators" said my daughter could have been able to humanely take a yearling doe w/ her 22.5# @ 22" Parker Sidekick....


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## Eldermike (Mar 24, 2009)

otacon122 said:


> The reason I asked what the maximum range was on a 30# by 30" bow is because all the calculators I've used all say the bow with a 400-grain arrow doesn't produce enough power to ethically kill a deer.



In my home state 40 lbs is min for hunting deer. I think that's a recent change, it was 45. However, I think my grandsons 25 lb long bow would do the deed at 10 feet given the right very sharp cutting on contact head. But we are not going to try it.


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## Jamesw (Sep 14, 2007)

Otacon122 there are many things that charts and calculators can never show.One is how you are going to use your bow and arrows.  No denying you will not have a lot of anything to waste with your setup but that does not mean you can not hunt and ethically take deer with it.It just means you have to pay a lot more attention to details.Choose small two blade broadheads over large ones.Don't be happy with anything but the most perfect tune and arrow flight.Learn to use the bow and shoot it well before you go hunting.Above all go into it realizeing that to be a good and ethical hunter with a bow means passing on shots on more deer than you will ever have the right shot at.No matter how well you shoot in the yard you will only shoot half that good when a deer is around.Allow for that by making sure you get close perfect shots.A good hunter kills deer on his terms not because one walks by and he thinks he can make the shot.Follow this reasoning and you will get your first deer one day.Don't worry if it takes a while because you will learn more and become a better hunter every day you spend letting the wrong deer walk. jmo


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## ravensgait (Sep 23, 2006)

SandSquid said:


> As far back as you can _accurately _put one in the vitals.



I'm with the Squid lol.. If you know you can place the arrow in the animals vitals then go for it. The difference between 300fps and say 175fps in the reaction time of a deer is so very very small that even the deer couldn't tell the difference. 

Tough I'd want to use more than a 30 pounder it will kill a deer.

Shooting at a game animal and the range you feel you can cleanly kill one is on you the person in the situation . You have to be able to read what is happening, if a deer is keyed up because something doesn't seem quite right , well if it is going to come unglued at the sound of the release it isn't going to matter much how far away or close it is.

You don't want to aim low anticipating the deer will drop, that is a good way to miss low or wound an animal. If you've watched a bunch of deer you know they don't always drop, they can spin, short jump, my favorite is the stiff legged hop to the side ETC ETC . We are using stick bows which tend to be quieter than compounds . Heck I've shot at and missed deer that looked where the arrow went not where it came from , they just stand there like wow big bee lol . If a deer is undistributed you can clap you hands and usually the most they do is look up to see what it was. Sure pressured, heavily hunted animals are touchier but you can see that in them. Take each deer as it comes and make your decision on what you see at the moment but never aim low..
Randy


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## Bowdon (Aug 17, 2004)

Back in the 60's and 70's gun hunters and bowhunter were alway finding broadheads and piece of arrow in deer. I have found a few that way back then. One was a wood arrow with a old Bear razer broke of just were the rib come off the spins and another it was in the front leg a piece of about 4 inch's of aluminum with a bear razer. A Friend shot one with a 60 lb recurve and a person single blade and couldn't find the deer. A gun hunter shot it and called him because he knew he hunted the same place and it was the one he had shot. About 8 inch's of arrow was still in him and the broadhead cut the bottom of the heart. The gun hunter said they see this buck get up and only go about 50 yards and lay down. Chuck had shot the buck about two weeks before they kill it. I seen a doe once with a arrow coming down a trail and the arrow was sticking through in neck. It was coming through the tree and brush like it was part of her. I shot one in Missouri once that had about 4 inch's of aluminum arrow in it and a Bobkin on it right in the top of it's rib cage. A friend off mine who has past on had a piece of ones spine with a old Herter 140 gr. Ram X broadhead stick in it in the 60's. Another friend had a deer skull with a bear razer no arrow stuck in it almost between the eyes. Gun hunters were alway saying that bow hunting should be out law and come to me and aways say I found a arrow in a dead deer. Know days with a modern compound the arrow passes through 90 % of the time. I learned years ago to put my name and address on my arrow so if a gun hunter comes up to me and says he found my arrow sticking out of a dead deer. I just ask them did it have my name on it and I want to see the arrow. I haven't seen or heard of this sense about the 80's Thank god I don't miss those day at all. I'm a believer it lots of KE and momentum so this doesn't happen.


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## Eldermike (Mar 24, 2009)

Jamesw said:


> Otacon122 there are many things that charts and calculators can never show.One is how you are going to use your bow and arrows.  No denying you will not have a lot of anything to waste with your setup but that does not mean you can not hunt and ethically take deer with it.It just means you have to pay a lot more attention to details.Choose small two blade broadheads over large ones.Don't be happy with anything but the most perfect tune and arrow flight.Learn to use the bow and shoot it well before you go hunting.Above all go into it realizeing that to be a good and ethical hunter with a bow means passing on shots on more deer than you will ever have the right shot at.No matter how well you shoot in the yard you will only shoot half that good when a deer is around.Allow for that by making sure you get close perfect shots.A good hunter kills deer on his terms not because one walks by and he thinks he can make the shot.Follow this reasoning and you will get your first deer one day.Don't worry if it takes a while because you will learn more and become a better hunter every day you spend letting the wrong deer walk. jmo


Amen


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## sj_lutz (Feb 25, 2005)

That's part of the beauty of hunting IMHO, there's no telling what the animal will do from moment to moment. It's compeling, fun-ish, and very simple to try and reduce to a simple equation all the variables that will be in play as you start to draw that string back, but at the end of the day, any equation is flat useless. There are as many stories about folks loosing a deer hit with arrows shot from 70lb compounds as there are 40 yard recoveries from 30-40lb stickbows. It's an art, not a science. 

That said, there are a number of things that fall into the tried and true category; things you can do to maximize your opportunity should you be fortunate enough to get one. Scary sharp CoC broadheads, picture perfect arrow flight, quiet bows, shot placement ect. None of these are "sexy" I suppose, no whizz bang numbers or formulas involved, but they're neglected at the hunters peril.


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## otacon122 (Jun 13, 2009)

I see hunting the same way I see fighting a war - you have to stay one step ahead of your opponent and always assume your opponent knows everything you are going to do. As I learned from combat - "surprise is decisive and you must be decisive. The secret to maintaining the element of surprise is knowing when to just let the opponent walk right on by without alerting him to your location."


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## sj_lutz (Feb 25, 2005)

I spent 22 years in the Army before I retired a couple years back. Near as I could tell the best way to win a war was to kill the bad guy before he killed you.

Deer aren't human and surprisingly fail to respect quotes from humans.


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## Ratdog68 (Feb 22, 2009)

*LOL Sorta like....*



sj_lutz said:


> I spent 22 years in the Army before I retired a couple years back. Near as I could tell the best way to win a war was to kill the bad guy before he killed you.
> 
> Deer aren't human and surprisingly fail to respect quotes from humans.


all these experts on bear behavior... who tells the bear what it's supposed to do, and how to behave?


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## Eldermike (Mar 24, 2009)

One other factor: panic
I have hunted all my life and had my share of success, but not on this day: I was walking to my stand just at daylight (I was late). When I got to my stand and put down my possibles bag and bow a big buck busted right in on me, 15 feet away. He was so out of it from rut that he could care less about me. So I picked up my bow, nocked an arrow, drew back, and began to move the arrow in circles and draw it back and forth, Nothing would hold still. When I let it go it went up through some limbs, over the tree and out of sight. The deer walked away. I went up the tree and stayed all day, He never came back.

I went for years without telling anyone. But as I get older I find the stupid things I did in life, funny.


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## sj_lutz (Feb 25, 2005)

Ratdog68 said:


> all these experts on bear behavior... who tells the bear what it's supposed to do, and how to behave?


Maybe those "smart" folks out in Vegas who had the "tame" tiger as a part of thier act and were shocked when the tiger actually **gasp** ate the one dude?


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## Ratdog68 (Feb 22, 2009)

*The ones I really like are...*



sj_lutz said:


> Maybe those "smart" folks out in Vegas who had the "tame" tiger as a part of thier act and were shocked when the tiger actually **gasp** ate the one dude?


the ones who go out of their way to traverse numerous obstacles which are purposely built and in place... just so they can stand next to the cage of "Blinkie"... or some other Ursus Maritimus (sp?). 

I believe I was living in Anchorage when that happened the first time around. Someone has (since) done it again at another locale... with similar results. (jackasses)


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## rod251 (Feb 1, 2007)

Jamesw said:


> This was a 17yd shot using a 2" wide fixed blade broadhead with bleeder blades.19 lbs KE and cleanly cut 3 ribs going in and made a disaster out of the brisket coming out.I think it clearly shows baseing killing power on KE numbers alone really means very little when sharp broadheads are involved.




Jamesw, I would like to know your setup on this kill, the draw weight you were pulling and how much the arrow weighed, just for my curiosity.


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## Jamesw (Sep 14, 2007)

I was shooting a 45lb bow at the time.The deer came behind me while in a small tree.I reached around the tree with my bow and pulled the string from the other side so could only draw 22".It was a 510gn pultruded carbon arrow tipped with a Simmons Treeshark .I was pulling around 30-32lbs or so at that length.When I checked after getting back home was in the 130fps range.The least ke that I have used was around 15lbs to kill a deer.It was the first wooden bow I built and I used a smaller broadhead on a 5/16 cedar for that.

I use big broadheads on heavy arrows but go to smaller broadheads for light weight faster arrows.Big broadheads need momemtum from a heavier arrow to work well. jmo

It's funny but I shot 80lb plus compounds for 20 years and the last 10 I have killed the same animals with bows sometimes half that weight with much bigger broadheads.I still get as many passthroughs and shoot just as many animals as I did with my compounds.I think moslty because I finally learned that where you hit them means more that what you hit them with.


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## ravensgait (Sep 23, 2006)

Ratdog68 said:


> the ones who go out of their way to traverse numerous obstacles which are purposely built and in place... just so they can stand next to the cage of "Blinkie"... or some other Ursus Maritimus (sp?).
> 
> I believe I was living in Anchorage when that happened the first time around. Someone has (since) done it again at another locale... with similar results. (jackasses)



LOL I was up there then for both Polar bear feedings lol dam foreigners. Gee lets climb over two fences to pet the cute Polar bears !!! I remember the video of the shoe lol.. Were you up there when they went after the DJ for getting the Brown bear killed in the Phone company parking lot?? Randy


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## Ratdog68 (Feb 22, 2009)

*Alascom?*



ravensgait said:


> LOL I was up there then for both Polar bear feedings lol dam foreigners. Gee lets climb over two fences to pet the cute Polar bears !!! I remember the video of the shoe lol.. Were you up there when they went after the DJ for getting the Brown bear killed in the Phone company parking lot?? Randy


When was that? I was there from about '86-93 (minus one of my 3.5yrs. in "Kotexabue")


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## SturgellatOSU (Oct 2, 2007)

otacon122 said:


> So as far as broadheads go, on a 30# Martin Jaguar Takedown at 30 inch draw, the maximum range I would be able to kill a deer with a set of Martin Cedar Hunting Arrows and RedHead Blackout broadheads would be what, exactly?


Glad to have you back to trolling, even if you have heeded some advice on using a lighter weigh bow.



otacon122 said:


> The reason I asked what the maximum range was on a 30# by 30" bow is because all the calculators I've used all say the bow with a 400-grain arrow doesn't produce enough power to ethically kill a deer.


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## Bowdon (Aug 17, 2004)

In the 60's and 70's I would get 2 to 3 different calls a week to go out to help some one find there deer in or club. Now day if I get maybe one or two calls a year in a bad year to help some try to find one. In the 20 years I shot a recurve bow I lost more deer than I ever have in the 25 years with a compound and I shot a 65 lb recurve bow and could shot the center of a 3 inch bullseye at 20 yards and put all my arrows in a pop can at 40 yards. If a deer walked out in front of me out to 30 yards my hunting buddies would say you could put your money on me making a great shot in the boiler maker. Thats one reason I have never lost that many deer in 45 year of bowhunting not as most others have. I have lost deer in the 45 years of hunting because I hunted every where and have shot so many deer. I have taken as many as 2 to 5 deer a year and maybe a elk or bear every year sense 1966. Even now at 62 years old I still fill two tags a year and make very clean kills. They only run 20 to under a 100 yard and they are dead with the arrow sticking in the ground were I shot it. A pass through kills so much faster and you have more blood on the ground period


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## Bowdon (Aug 17, 2004)

If you are going to hunt with a light poundage recurve here are some tricks. Sharpen the back side of you broad heads. If the deer pulls it out or the brush pulls it out or it will cut more as the deer runs off with your arrow. Some on here talk about a pass through with 45 lbs , but don't depend on it the percentages are against you. Arrow that stays in a deer well plug the hole so you must look for blood that is dripping of the arrow or on the hoof as it runs down it leg. Look where the deer steps to find it. If you can't put all your arrow in a pie pan at 20 yard don't shoot any thing at 20 yards. You must respect the game you hunt and not depend on luck for a ethical kill. We owe it to the game we hunt to make the cleanest and most ethical kill we can make and to yourself most of all.

Good Luck


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## Arthur P (May 28, 2002)

Don't be mislead by stories about finding broadheads in rifle shot deer in days of old. Those stories are not so much about the effectiveness of traditional equipment as they are about how our ethics and hunting tactics have changed in the many years since. Actually, telling those stories without putting them into their proper context is, in my opinion, rather misleading.

In those days a hunter that killed a deer with bow and arrow was an event, and he nearly always got his picture on the front page of the local newspaper. Hunters didn't have PETA and such breathing down their necks. Ethics? Not nearly as much as today. They took shots that at distances, angles and under conditions that would make us cringe these days. 

Now, we're much better. Our ethics demand we hold off until we've got high probability shots at distances we are reasonably certain of making a good shot. Tradtional bowhunters have to practice enough that they've got a very good idea of their capabilities and aren't as likely to try and stretch a shot. 

Your 50 pound bow with sharp broadheads will take any deer, even elk, ever spawned on this continent as long as you get within your effective shooting distance and put the broadhead in the right spot. Don't ever let anyone put any doubt in your mind about the power your bow delivers.


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## Flyboy718 (May 20, 2008)

Bowdon said:


> In the 60's and 70's I would get 2 to 3 different calls a week to go out to help some one find there deer in or club. Now day if I get maybe one or two calls a year in a bad year to help some try to find one. In the 20 years I shot a recurve bow I lost more deer than I ever have in the 25 years with a compound and I shot a 65 lb recurve bow and could shot the center of a 3 inch bullseye at 20 yards and put all my arrows in a pop can at 40 yards. If a deer walked out in front of me out to 30 yards my hunting buddies would say you could put your money on me making a great shot in the boiler maker. Thats one reason I have never lost that many deer in 45 year of bowhunting not as most others have. I have lost deer in the 45 years of hunting because I hunted every where and have shot so many deer. I have taken as many as 2 to 5 deer a year and maybe a elk or bear every year sense 1966. Even now at 62 years old I still fill two tags a year and make very clean kills. They only run 20 to under a 100 yard and they are dead with the arrow sticking in the ground were I shot it. A pass through kills so much faster and you have more blood on the ground period


I have happened across many of your posts, because you frequent the same areas I do; and you always have to put yourself above everyone else.

"In the 20 years I shot a recurve bow I lost more deer than I ever have in the 25 years with a compound and I shot a 65 lb recurve bow and could shot the center of a 3 inch bullseye at 20 yards and put all my arrows in a pop can at 40 yards."

If you really are that good a shot with a 65# recurve, that's great, I just find it hard to believe...but if you say you did then I guess you did. But I would be inclined to say that 65# recurve and you loosing more deer than you ever have with a compound tells me that you were good at target shooting but poor at actually shooting at a live animal with a recurve. Sounds like you had the shot placement down with the recurve at targets though. As far as people loosing deer goes...it happens just as much if not more. Maybe they just don't call on you as much.


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## Bowdon (Aug 17, 2004)

Arther is right about the ethic. It has really changed over the years. The longest kill I have ever made was with a recurve bow. Two 60 yard perfect shots that I wouldn't even think of doing today with my 70 lb compound. To many eyes watching every move we make. To many groups after or sport. We did find arrows and broadheads in deer more than we do today. I was at a DNR meeting once and some collage kid came in and had a survey on the deer lost with the bow & arrow and said this is way bowhunting should be out lawed. We looked at it and it was taken in 1956. The next meeting the DNR had they were there again asking to out law bowhunting and we had a updated survey and difference was like the difference between night and day. We never seen them again. Thats way Fred bear was a big promoter of the pod to help with deer lose. He talk about it often. He said thats how they are going to get or sport shut down. I was into the politics of bowhunting for years with or state DNR and had seen a lot of this. They alway go after bowhunting as a unethical means of taking game. They watch to much TV and think there are deer running around out there with arrow sticking out of then. If they do find one I know for a fact it won't be mine. There are three kind of people out there hunters, anti group and the biggest is the one who don't care about it ether way. The one who get to that group first and convince them there way is the right way is going to be the winner.


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## Jamesw (Sep 14, 2007)

Well I don't know about the way things were in the old days.I can tell you that in the 30 or so years I have bowhunted with every kind of bow the recurve or longbows sure does not have a monopoly on lost or wounded deer.The hunter misses and wounds.The bow has nothing at all to do with.Anything from a selfbow to a tricked out Bowtech kill the same way.The guy carring it knows how to use it or not.Both have and will cleanly kill anything that walks this old earth when the archer does his part.It is easy to blame equipment instead of admitting to operator error.Seems to happen a lot on the internet. :darkbeer:


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## ravensgait (Sep 23, 2006)

Well I call BS lol, don't know where you were hunting way back when Bowden but sounds like a bunch of you needed to hang it up.. I and other here have been at this longer than many here have been alive. I've killed many many animals with a bow and seldom even killed or seen an animal killed that carried an arrow in it.

Way back in the good old days(read sig line below lol) People hunted with stick and string because it was a stick and string, having been there and having hunted all over this country with said stick and string I'd say they were more (I wont say ethical because ethics is a personal thing) in tune with the bow than many are today.

I'm not taking a shot at compound users as I play with one now and then but many compound shooters hunt with the easy to use compounds just to add another deer season IE to try and kill more deer. Before you get all bent think about this. If next season Compounds were outlawed how many fewer bowhunters would there be. Most Wheel shooters would hang it up and you know it.

So most wheel shooters are in it for extended deer hunting time ,, no problem with that but we have all seen and or know people that sight in their bow right before season and don't shoot it again till next preseason. Sure there are stick bow folks who should practice more but percentage wise far fewer. Stick shooters have more invested in the sport, IE takes longer to master and requires constant practice. 

I could go on but why lol Stick bow shooters wound no more animals then any other bowhunters. Randy


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## Flyboy718 (May 20, 2008)

*That is ridiculous*



Bowdon said:


> The longest kill I have ever made was with a recurve bow. Two 60 yard perfect shots that I wouldn't even think of doing today with my 70 lb compound.


Once again, another "fairytale" from bowdon.

How can you take a 60 yard shot at a deer with a recurve...wait a minute TWO 60 yard shots! I don't even want to hear the explanation to that tale. If you took shots like this "back in the ol days" then no wonder you lost so many deer.


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## Arthur P (May 28, 2002)

Whether or not Bowdon took shots at 60 yards in the good ol' days, the fact is that such shots were not all that uncommon. I thought I was pretty good with a bow when I was a youngster and did the same. No thought whatsoever about whether it was 'ethical' or not. I was trying to kill an animal and make meat. I would accept a clean first shot kill, naturally, but was prepared to wound and follow the critter, and use as many arrows as it took to bring it down. That was the mind set a lot of us had 50-odd years ago.

Read in Hunting the Hard Way about Howard Hill taking several ranging shots before connecting on an elk at *275 yards*... with a longbow! Ethics have changed dramatically in the past 50 years. Even more over the past 130 years. Read Maurice Thompson's The Witchery of Archery if you want real instruction on how hunting ethics have changed.

We can pat ourselves on the back all we want about how ethical we are as a group now, and rightly so, but we really can't escape our history.


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## Bowdon (Aug 17, 2004)

Arthur P Most can't remember all we had was field archery and the animal round to shoot. They call it target archery now and we shot long yardage all the time to practice for hunting. My X could hit the 80 with a 25 lb Wing recurve. Most probably never heard of that recurve bow. Both of the bucks I shot at around 60 yard were lung shots and killed the deer dead. I never lost as many as most back then in fact never lost very many at all. Field archery has been around a lot longer then the close ranges at a 3D shoots they shoot now. Bowhunter ethics is a good thing with the number of bowhunters we have now and the presser we have on us by the anti hunting groups and we need for all to practice ethics at all times with are equipment and are shooting.


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## Arthur P (May 28, 2002)

I've still got a 35# Wing Presentation II, bowdon. An old Wing Red Wing Hunter delammed on me a few years ago and left me heartbroken. I love Wing bows, even more than old Bear recurves. 

I hear ya about field archery. That game had us practicing our shooting out to 60, 70 and 80 yards and those of us that got into it turned into some good shooters, that's for sure. Field archery was invented in the 30's and during it's evolution the distances were set by people using what we call traditional bows now. They were just bows then. 

My favorite field archery recurve with my best arrow length had a point-on distance dead on 60 yards. I actually shot better scores at 40 yards than I did at 30 because I shot instinctive from 30 and in, and gap on all distances over 30.

Really and truly, NFAA field archery is the true traditional archery tournament format. But I've heard some are hollering for NFAA to shorten the distances for traditional class. How absurd is that? Traditional shooters moaning about not being able to shoot the distances their fathers and grandfathers did?

I've said once or twice that traditional archery is an idealized idea of a type of archery that never actually existed before. The equipment is the same, the spirit is the same, the camaradarie is the same, but the perspective is fabricated.

Of course, archery and bowhunting are two entirely different things. Archery has hard and fast rules and tournament officials to ensure the rules are obeyed. Bowhunting has ethics in addition to game laws. The only one who can ensure compliance on ethics is one's own self. 

I forget who said it and it's exact wording, but here's the paraphrased quote:

Archery is the art of seeing how far you can get from something and still hit it. Bowhunting is the art of getting close enough that you can't miss.


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## Bowdon (Aug 17, 2004)

My x wife shot a Swift Wing and a John Williams Slim Line and shot as a AM. I alway shot PAA pro and open. I had a Herters Utopian. a Carol Gentle Jim , a Lord Mercury target and shot a Mountaineer later. I shoot who ever gave the best deal shooting for them. For hunting I shot a Herters Seka, a Herters take down, a Carol take down and a Lord Mercury take down that I wish I still had. They were all 60 to 65 lb hunting bows. I shot target indoor with about 35 lbs and out door with 40 lb through a clicker. I had a 300 average indoors and have shot 300 back to back at tournaments before and I was in the 500's at Field archery the old scoring. It's nice to be able to talk to some one thats in the know about recurves and I agree 100 % about the trad. thing thats going on now days. They just don't know how or under stand how it was 40 or 50 years ago.


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## SandSquid (Sep 2, 2008)

Bowdon said:


> They just don't know how or under stand how it was 40 or 50 years ago.


I finally replaced the vintage Bear Tamerlane HC-300 I got rid of in the 80's...
Ended up paying more for it used this year thant it sold for new way back when.... but this one has the original, factory installed plunger and flipper ;-)


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## Bowdon (Aug 17, 2004)

Funny when the compound got popular you could buy all the recurves you wanted for $10 to $20 dollars. Now look at them. A good hunting bow was about $70 and a good target was about $140 new.


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## ravensgait (Sep 23, 2006)

Bowdon said:


> Funny when the compound got popular you could buy all the recurves you wanted for $10 to $20 dollars. Now look at them. A good hunting bow was about $70 and a good target was about $140 new.


 Yep and you could get a new car for a few grand a a Soda cost a a dime. Things change.. Randy


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## ravensgait (Sep 23, 2006)

Ratdog68 said:


> When was that? I was there from about '86-93 (minus one of my 3.5yrs. in "Kotexabue")


I think it was in 90 or 91 ,, He announced over the air that there was a bear in the park if anyone wanted to see one.. They were going to tranquilize him but there were so many people there that they had to kill him. They took him down in the Phone company parking lot. I remember someones Caddy got a slug through the door .

People got all upset because they killed him so the state went after the Bozo who created the problem.. Randy


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## rod251 (Feb 1, 2007)

Jamesw said:


> I was shooting a 45lb bow at the time.The deer came behind me while in a small tree.I reached around the tree with my bow and pulled the string from the other side so could only draw 22".It was a 510gn pultruded carbon arrow tipped with a Simmons Treeshark .I was pulling around 30-32lbs or so at that length.When I checked after getting back home was in the 130fps range.The least ke that I have used was around 15lbs to kill a deer.It was the first wooden bow I built and I used a smaller broadhead on a 5/16 cedar for that.
> 
> I use big broadheads on heavy arrows but go to smaller broadheads for light weight faster arrows.Big broadheads need momemtum from a heavier arrow to work well. jmo
> 
> It's funny but I shot 80lb plus compounds for 20 years and the last 10 I have killed the same animals with bows sometimes half that weight with much bigger broadheads.I still get as many passthroughs and shoot just as many animals as I did with my compounds.I think moslty because I finally learned that where you hit them means more that what you hit them with.



Thanks for the info. This thread is a good read, but it has strayed far from the original post. This will be my second season hunting with a recurve, and I haven't killed a deer with one yet. I will be pulling about 42-43 lbs, shooting a 440 grain (total weight) arrow with a 150 grain Woodsman head about 160 feet per second, keeping my shots inside 20 yards. While my setup should be lethal with a good shot, hearing reports like yours only helps boost my confidence. I think everyone will agree that nothing gives you confidence like having a few kills under your belt. I will be glad when I reach that point with my recurve. Now if October would only get here sooner...


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## rattus58 (Jul 9, 2007)

*Taking shots a deer....*

Do I have a right to criticize someone for taking a 60 or 90 yard shot at a deer? If the answer is yes, how so? Because I can't make that shot that you cannot either?

Olympians shoot 100 yards or thereabouts. I've hit targets that are vitalsized quite frequently while roving or playing around with a volleyball and blunts. The question is... for ME... should I take that shot on a deer? The question for you may also be... "should I take that shot on a deer?" But should we/ME be saying to you that you should could or would.

I've been watching a weekend program called Western Extremes recently. These guys are into LONG RANGE SHOOTING with their setups... ranges like 650 to 750 yards are CHIP SHOTS.... ??? According to African PH Peter Capstick a bet was won on whether an Elephant could be dropped with a 22.

Have you all seen someone in the "shooters" stage of their lives? 60 yards looks like 20 at this stage, the remaining 40 I'm sure being negated strictly through untempered eagerness... or other phenomena... but it is there... and it is almost palpable. However, there are those that practice for those shots. Some of them become quite good at it, and others just think that they are... But... is it up TO ME to criticize when I might not be in possesion of all the facts?

Just thinking out loud.... 

Aloha....  :beer:


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## Ratdog68 (Feb 22, 2009)

*I missed that one...*



ravensgait said:


> I think it was in 90 or 91 ,, He announced over the air that there was a bear in the park if anyone wanted to see one.. They were going to tranquilize him but there were so many people there that they had to kill him. They took him down in the Phone company parking lot. I remember someones Caddy got a slug through the door .
> 
> People got all upset because they killed him so the state went after the Bozo who created the problem.. Randy


I was working on the slope at the time... may've missed it on one of my two week rotations.


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## Arthur P (May 28, 2002)

> Do I have a right to criticize someone for taking a 60 or 90 yard shot at a deer?


Yes you have that right. However, it's patently unfair to use TODAY'S ethics as basis to criticize that person for doing so many years ago, when attitudes, ethics and situations were very different than they are today. I've tried to put that era into context for you so you can think out loud... intelligently. :darkbeer:


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## rattus58 (Jul 9, 2007)

*What are todays "Ethics"*

Hi Arthur... 

"However, it's patently unfair to use TODAY'S ethics as basis to criticize that person for doing so many years ago, when attitudes, ethics and situations were very different than they are today."

What are "Today's" Ethics? You say I have a right to criticize say a 60 yard shot TODAY. Then you go on to say its unfair to criticize something that was done so many years ago by todays standards.

I understand not criticizing someone who depended upon hunting who in a lean winter takes a running shot at a deer with a muzzleloader and only wounds it without recovering it, but I'm asking a generic question. WHY do I have a right to criticize a 60 yard shot other than I CAN? How do I know your preparation? How do I know your capability and in that regard, I do agree that to criticize a 60 yard shot today based upon a 30 year ago practice, and that is where your comment confused me, might be unwarranted. Where do I get off doing it today?

Aloha...  :beer:


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## ravensgait (Sep 23, 2006)

There are no Yesterdays or Today's Ethics ! Ethics are a personal thing, you have your Ethics and everyone else has theirs. If you want people to respect your Ethics then you should try respecting theirs.. Randy


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## trapperDave (Mar 12, 2005)

rod251 said:


> Thanks for the info. This thread is a good read, but it has strayed far from the original post. This will be my second season hunting with a recurve, and I haven't killed a deer with one yet. I will be pulling about 42-43 lbs, shooting a 440 grain (total weight) arrow with a 150 grain Woodsman head about 160 feet per second, keeping my shots inside 20 yards. While my setup should be lethal with a good shot, hearing reports like yours only helps boost my confidence. I think everyone will agree that nothing gives you confidence like having a few kills under your belt. I will be glad when I reach that point with my recurve. Now if October would only get here sooner...


I think you would be better off with a good two blade at that poundage to assure good penetration. just my .02


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## LBR (Jan 1, 2004)

I agree with Dave. The WW might do fine, but you should get better penetration with 2 blades. There's plenty of great ones on the market.

Chad


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## Flyboy718 (May 20, 2008)

rod251 said:


> Thanks for the info. This thread is a good read, but it has strayed far from the original post. This will be my second season hunting with a recurve, and I haven't killed a deer with one yet. I will be pulling about 42-43 lbs, shooting a 440 grain (total weight) arrow with a 150 grain Woodsman head about 160 feet per second, keeping my shots inside 20 yards. While my setup should be lethal with a good shot, hearing reports like yours only helps boost my confidence. I think everyone will agree that nothing gives you confidence like having a few kills under your belt. I will be glad when I reach that point with my recurve. Now if October would only get here sooner...


I agree...thread has gone in another direction, I too am using a very similar setup as rod251 and would like to hear of some success from others using similar setups. My setup is a Quinn Stallion Classic 40# with a 360 grain arrow tipped with a Magnus 125 grain two blade. Let's hear some more success or non-success from other hunters with similar equipment.


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## ravensgait (Sep 23, 2006)

I've known a few women over the year that shot 40 to 50 pound bows. They have taken lots of critters with them, Moose, Caribou,Elk, Deer, Sheep, Mt. Goat ETC ETC If your broadhead is sharp and you put it where it needs to go then there isn't much to discuss .. Randy


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## DwayneR (Feb 23, 2004)

*Flyboy...Rod...*

I hunt with a 45# Mamba, 530 grain total wieght, traveling at 145 FPS. My KE is right at 25FP. 

Do NOT (I repeat) do NOT use a mechanical broadhead. Use a COC.

Quartering away shots or broadside shots only...

Do NOT expect your arrow to go all the way through... (I have yet to have that happen). 

As one gent said... sharpen the back sides of the broadheads.... You WANT the deer to pull the arrow out!

Out of all the deer I have shot, I have had about 1/2 and 1/2 of single/double lung shots from the broadside view. I prefer shooting broadside, because I have tracked more deer from arrows not penetrating deep enough from a quartering away shot that are just short of the lung<s>.

Do not go more than 20 yards at most....The angle at which your arrow hits is a downward angle. the downward angle is MUCH greater than a faster bow, and you have a chance of missing the lungs if you are only a couple of inches low of your target.

I enjoy hunting with my Mamba... It is a lethal weapon... But I also know its limitations. Those limitations are not necessarily in the hunter, but of the bow itself. If you know your equipment, you know what you can and cannot do with it.

Dwayne


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## Flyboy718 (May 20, 2008)

DwayneR said:


> I hunt with a 45# Mamba, 530 grain total wieght, traveling at 145 FPS. My KE is right at 25FP.
> 
> Do NOT (I repeat) do NOT use a mechanical broadhead. Use a COC.
> 
> ...


Thanks Dwayne! That is the kind of information we are looking for...I plan on keeping my shot's inside 15 yards, if it don't come that close then that is fine, all part of the hunt. Anyone else?


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## sback05 (Oct 26, 2006)

this thread did go a bit off course, but it has been a good read as well. thanks to everyone for all the input and more input is always welcome:darkbeer:


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## DwayneR (Feb 23, 2004)

One other thing...

sback gave *perfect* examples of COC broadheads...These are the kind of broadheads that give the BEST penetration for their weight for low weight bows. I prefer very SMALL bleeder blades....or better yet...non at all.

I would say that about 1/3? of my deer have reached around and pulled the arrow out at some time or another.


Do NOT use a broadhead such as the RedHead Blackout. That is not a good broadhead to use on light bows... Triangular speading from point of entrance is loss of penetration. 

COC blades usually have a single blade for its *main* slice, main enterance, and friction is very small while it does its job. Anytime you place a point that spreads (like the RedHead Blackout) in place of a blade, you lose energy...

It must..."Puncture", "Spread further apart the wound", and penetrate.

A COC "slices" and spreads very little while entering he wound. The energy is being absorbed by the cutting, not the surface area.

Think of it this way....

A blunt has about the same surface area of a blade... 

But when it is shot, that surface area presents itself all at once... Thus penetration is low...

A target tip presents its area a little slower within a 1/4 of an inch..Thus penetrates a little deeper...

A field tip presents its area a little slower yet, within 1/2 to 2/3 of an inch.. Thus penetrates easier...

A broadhead like the RedHead Blackout presents about 1/2 of its area within the first 1/4 of an inch. Thus penetration is similar to a target point.

A COC broadhead presents the smallest amount of area. Depending upon where the main part of the blade support is, a COC may have penetrate up to 1" or more before even presenting 1/8 or 1/4 of its area to the target. That extra penetration is opening a a larger wound, allowing less friction for the arrow to run against the wound and slow down.


Dwayne


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## Flyboy718 (May 20, 2008)

Thats good stuff Dwayne!


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