# ASA REALTREE Ft. Benning Championship->1350+!



## knox_nate (Dec 27, 2009)

Challenging ranges and set up. Great shoot! Thanks ASA and the ASA Staff for a great weekend!


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## CMA121885 (Sep 7, 2009)

Mike told me 1469 shooters. A new record attendance total, also a new record for K45 class.


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## alligood729 (Mar 25, 2007)

CMA121885 said:


> Mike told me 1469 shooters. A new record attendance total, also a new record for K45 class.


141 shooters in K45....had to split us up, half shot the range we were assigned to, other half shot the Sims range, after they reset it a little. Today, we swapped....definitely a great weekend. Weather was perfect. My shooting was not..lololol


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## STRICNINE (Oct 22, 2012)

Yeah, the k45 split up was actually very nice! I hope they keep the format going forward. Only 4 to a target which made it quick and really gave us time to focus on the shooting. Great times!


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## tmorelli (Jul 31, 2005)

Glad to see K45 doing well.... 

I'm hopeful it eventually leads to growth of K50 too. Not that a bigger K50 would've done me any good this weekend. 

I'm still a believer that known yardage fixes most complaints people have with 3d in general. 



Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2


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## STRICNINE (Oct 22, 2012)

26 shooters in K50 is considered a pretty good turn out! lol


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## knox_nate (Dec 27, 2009)

Some dang good shooters this weekend. When someone shoots 36 up with 19 12s or 44 up with 22 12s that's dang good shooting!!


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## 3-D Quest (Jan 26, 2007)

CMA121885 said:


> Mike told me 1469 shooters. A new record attendance total, also a new record for K45 class.


Wow! 1469 shooters! I figured it was better than my number; I just counted in my head as I went through the different classes checking out the scores. The ASA staff will need some rest this week.



tmorelli said:


> Glad to see K45 doing well....
> 
> I'm hopeful it eventually leads to growth of K50 too. Not that a bigger K50 would've done me any good this weekend.
> 
> ...


I tend to side with you T. I think known distance actually will make you a better shooter. Thing is...there are too many die hards that would rather moan and groan about KD. So, ASA will try to offer everyone something.
I think all the amateur classes should have UKD on Saturday and KD on Sunday. It would put you on the road home sooner.


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## Babyk (Jul 5, 2011)

K50 would be a monster class size if 14s were put back in play......companys offered money of some sort since it is a pro class......I


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## ELPalmer (Mar 2, 2013)

Lots of Georgia Peaches too. Love the Bow babes. 
Shot the team shoot, brought my team way down, reallly have developed some target panic, shooting spots too much and freezing up on brown foam.. Im a Hoyt guy, Shot with two Mathews guys, a Pro and a Semi Pro, I have to admit, these two guys were 1st class acts, impressive range estimating abilities. 

I have only attended 3 ASA big shoots, this is the 1st time I came in Thursday afternoon and took it all in. It was Great experience.

I had a dream we were following the Lancasters trailer on the way home and it went off the road and came apart like a giant Pinata...and 3d Shooters following were having another X mas.......yeah, I know Im sick. Maybe I should see a shrink?


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## Kstigall (Feb 24, 2004)

I really enjoyed the weekend even though I didn't perform at my best. I loved leaving 5 inches of snow and rolling into warmth and sunshine! 

K50 will have to grow with K45 pulling 140+ this past weekend. K50 is a class that has to be initially filled by people moving "up" into it. Once it draws around 50 or so shooters it will begin drawing from Semi-Pro, Open A and B classes as well as the others. Not every one can or wants to go to "Open Pro". At some point some "newbie" K45 archers will filter over into the Open classes after shooting some tournaments in K45.


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## ELPalmer (Mar 2, 2013)

oh yeah, the group of guys I shot with in Ft Benning were great bunch of boys to shoot with in Hunter class. The Gainesville shoot hooked me up with a couple of whiners, I wish I called an official over on hind sight at Fla.


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## GreggWNY (Sep 6, 2002)

Wonder how many "former" IBO shooters are now going to shoot ASA since the target switch to Rhineharts?


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## n2bows (May 21, 2002)

It's good to have such a large turn out. And it was great to see the K50 with 26 shooters! I thought the largest attended ASA Pro-Am was in Oak Ridge Tennessee a few years back though? Over 1600 if I remember right.


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## wpk (Jan 31, 2009)

So much for the economy hurting attendance 
Glad to see the high numbers


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## Kstigall (Feb 24, 2004)

It is an excellent venue.


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## cenochs (May 2, 2007)

I bet to say KY ASA will break all records it usually is one of the top attendance shoots and it is closest for the IBO guys! I say they ASA better be planning for 1500 plus shooters more ranges and larger practice areas!


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## n2bows (May 21, 2002)

cenochs said:


> I bet to say KY ASA will break all records it usually is one of the top attendance shoots and it is closest for the IBO guys! I say they ASA better be planning for 1500 plus shooters more ranges and larger practice areas!


I agree 100% More and larger practice areas!


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## bhtr3d (Feb 13, 2004)

cenochs said:


> I bet to say KY ASA will break all records it usually is one of the top attendance shoots and it is closest for the IBO guys! I say they ASA better be planning for 1500 plus shooters more ranges and larger practice areas!


I know Thur the state scholastic champ will be there before the pro/am Friday starts....and there might be more kids shooting the pro/am than ever


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## 4him (Jan 14, 2011)

Had a blast. Shot K-45 with some great guy's.


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## asa3dpro (Dec 31, 2002)

tmorelli said:


> I'm still a believer that known yardage fixes most complaints people have with 3d .
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2



I believe if this was the case, there would be 200+ shooters in that class. K45 that is...


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## tmorelli (Jul 31, 2005)

asa3dpro said:


> I believe if this was the case, there would be 200+ shooters in that class. K45 that is...


Already the biggest class out there.....

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2


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## STRICNINE (Oct 22, 2012)

Kstigall said:


> I really enjoyed the weekend even though I didn't perform at my best. I loved leaving 5 inches of snow and rolling into warmth and sunshine!
> 
> K50 will have to grow with K45 pulling 140+ this past weekend. K50 is a class that has to be initially filled by people moving "up" into it. Once it draws around 50 or so shooters it will begin drawing from Semi-Pro, Open A and B classes as well as the others. Not every one can or wants to go to "Open Pro". At some point some "newbie" K45 archers will filter over into the Open classes after shooting some tournaments in K45.


I don't see it happening as it has been the same format for years and nobody moves into it. I see a few K45 shooters moving up to it but the way it looks is K45 shooters move primarily into open classes. My goal is to shoot K50 at some point.


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## bhtr3d (Feb 13, 2004)

tmorelli said:


> Already the biggest class out there.....
> 
> Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2


NOT really...but we let you non judging people believe that. : ) 

ASA we offer the class you wish to shoot. You want know we have it. You want unknown we have it  ASA the SHOOTERS CHOICE


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## Kstigall (Feb 24, 2004)

asa3dpro said:


> I believe if this was the case, there would be 200+ shooters in that class. K45 that is...





tmorelli said:


> Already the biggest class out there.....
> 
> Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2





bhtr3d said:


> NOT really...but we let you non judging people believe that. : )
> 
> ASA we offer the class you wish to shoot. You want know we have it. You want unknown we have it  ASA the SHOOTERS CHOICE


K45 had 141 shooters at Oochee Creek. The largest class by far..........




STRICNINE said:


> I don't see it happening as it has been the same format for years and nobody moves into it. I see a few K45 shooters moving up to it but the way it looks is K45 shooters move primarily into open classes. My goal is to shoot K50 at some point.



It is starting to happen. I quickly recognized two guys, Daniels and Morelli, that shot K50 at Oochee Creek that won out of K45 last year. People aren't just going to start paying the much larger entry fee for the K50 just for the heck of it. IF I win out this year I'll most likely go to K50 next year unless I choose to shoot in the Old Farts class!!!


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## bhtr3d (Feb 13, 2004)

Well we had to break up the open class into 3teirs over 330


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## tmorelli (Jul 31, 2005)

Kstigall said:


> It is starting to happen. I quickly recognized two guys, Daniels and Morelli, that shot K50 at Oochee Creek that won out of K45 last year. People aren't just going to start paying the much larger entry fee for the K50 just for the heck of it. IF I win out this year I'll most likely go to K50 next year unless I choose to shoot in the Old Farts class!!!


There are a few. Curt Taylor (Yankee Rebel here) and Glen Klawitter are shooting K50 too. Of the other win outs, Shane Kemp (kempcrete) went to Open A...... and the concerning part that I think isn't isolated to this year.... more people just seem to fall off the ship altogether after winning out of K45. Look at the list from the last two years. A big number of the names haven't been seen since. 

If I ran the ASA, I'm looking at why. IMO, there is a missed opportunity with Known distance still.



bhtr3d said:


> Well we had to break up the open class into 3teirs over 330


If we're keeping score.....

How about the fact that "Open" C and "Open" B are half known distance? And hunter...... and who knows what else? The vast majority of attendees are playing some known yardage game. 

K45 was the single largest class in GA. It was the single largest class in FL too. I think it fell short only to Open B for last year. 


My point earlier that known distance addresses some systemic issues with 3d was this;

No yardage based cheating.... rangefinders.... gapping techniques.... pacing targets.... sharing numbers.... phones, cameras.... moving ranges around....

No "need" to own a range of targets to be competitive.... this is a big deterent to "new" or "developing/growing" high level 3der's. No need to own the land to support it or have a job that allows hours/week of judging time during the daylight.

No "need" to cheat on speed..... No need to complain about long draw vs. short draw archers and find the ideal speed limit for all...

And my favorite that seems oh-so-timely.... no "NEED" to shoot this standardized Delta junk. If the game was known yardage, the targets could be anything. Think Redding.

JMHO....


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## n2bows (May 21, 2002)

tmorelli said:


> There are a few. Curt Taylor (Yankee Rebel here) and Glen Klawitter are shooting K50 too. Of the other win outs, Shane Kemp (kempcrete) went to Open A...... and the concerning part that I think isn't isolated to this year.... more people just seem to fall off the ship altogether after winning out of K45. Look at the list from the last two years. A big number of the names haven't been seen since.
> 
> If I ran the ASA, I'm looking at why. IMO, there is a missed opportunity with Known distance still.
> 
> ...


Tony, I am Glad to see that I am not the only one that sees the bigger picture!! Hopfully in the near future, some of the sponsors will step out of the way, and let ASA and archery continue to grow. And also, it was good shooting with you Sunday.


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## bhtr3d (Feb 13, 2004)

tmorelli said:


> There are a few. Curt Taylor (Yankee Rebel here) and Glen Klawitter are shooting K50 too. Of the other win outs, Shane Kemp (kempcrete) went to Open A...... and the concerning part that I think isn't isolated to this year.... more people just seem to fall off the ship altogether after winning out of K45. Look at the list from the last two years. A big number of the names haven't been seen since.
> 
> If I ran the ASA, I'm looking at why. IMO, there is a missed opportunity with Known distance still.
> 
> ...


Tony.....I want to say this...I understand your thought about this, but as I have said before ASA offers class and styles for everyone.


Also, just for the record though. A/B/C were around long before we had any known distance added/ full classes. and their numbers have maintained an avg amount roughly a 110 plus for each. 

I like the unknown....for a few reasons....im old school....and it works for me as to keep in the shot.....known just makes me not care actually....I psychological but still that's how I feel.


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## treeman65 (Nov 24, 2005)

tmorelli said:


> Already the biggest class out there.....
> 
> Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2


It's a great opportunity for people that don't have the time to practice judging or shoot other venues like field
I can't wait to shoot it at regions and metro
I love the reasons people are against it then see how some of these people shoot


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## tmorelli (Jul 31, 2005)

bhtr3d said:


> Tony.....I want to say this...I understand your thought about this, but as I have said before ASA offers class and styles for everyone.
> 
> 
> Also, just for the record though. A/B/C were around long before we had any known distance added/ full classes. and their numbers have maintained an avg amount roughly a 110 plus for each.
> ...


I understand and I don't disagree with you. I shot all unknown in the 90's and did pretty well (judging was my stength vs. my shooting too) before I quit in pursuit of other things. I had a "stigma" about going known distance when I started back up in late 2011 but when I tried it, the game changed my mind... aka I was wrong about it. I thoroughly enjoyed it last year but I'm working on my yardage (primary reason I'm ticked about the target situation... I'm ready to buy a range when Delta gets their crap together). This year is TBD as initially I think removing the 14 from known yardage makes it a lot more like a dot shoot. I enjoyed the strategy and the risk-reward calculation that isn't there now.

So, I don't have anything against unknown at all. But, I still think that the general acceptance and perhaps prioritization of known distance provides an answer to many of the issues keeping 3d from growing.... and most being griped about on here regularly. Many of those same "gripers" are often "old-school" though and have that same stigma or a general disregard to known distance 3d...... when it can fix many of the complaints.


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## Kstigall (Feb 24, 2004)

tmorelli said:


> I understand and I don't disagree with you. I shot all unknown in the 90's and did pretty well (judging was my stength vs. my shooting too) before I quit in pursuit of other things. I had a "stigma" about going known distance when I started back up in late 2011 but when I tried it, the game changed my mind... aka I was wrong about it. I thoroughly enjoyed it last year but I'm working on my yardage (primary reason I'm ticked about the target situation... I'm ready to buy a range when Delta gets their crap together). This year is TBD as initially I think removing the 14 from known yardage makes it a lot more like a dot shoot. I enjoyed the strategy and the risk-reward calculation that isn't there now.
> 
> So, I don't have anything against unknown at all. But, I still think that the general acceptance and perhaps prioritization of known distance provides an answer to many of the issues keeping 3d from growing.... and most being griped about on here regularly. Many of those same "gripers" are often "old-school" though and have that same stigma or a general disregard to known distance 3d...... when it can fix many of the complaints.


I entirely agree. I realized some "excitement" was missing over the weekend. Not having the 14 to consider on each target made the game a LOT simpler but also much less stimulating (fun). Now I realize why so many archers were happy to see the 14 taken out of play. For many the added pressure (excitement and challenge) of evaluating whether to shoot at the 14 and/or actually shooting at the 14 is too much for them. For others it was the simple fact that they don't have the skills and/or confidence to shoot at the 14 so removing it increased, at least in their minds, the chances of them placing higher. Personally, removing the 14 from play has made the game much less fun for me. Now about the only thing to really consider on each target is deciding how hard to go at the 12. I believe the 14 should still be in play in at least the Know distance classes.

Some of the folks that gripe about "known" 3D don't like it because there is NO hiding a poorly executed shot that hits high or low behind "my yardage was off". The same folks really don't like shooting indoor spots because a long list of excuses for yipping a shot are no longer valid. Unwilling to acknowledge their shot and psychological weaknesses their 3D game fails to evolve.


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## bhtr3d (Feb 13, 2004)

Tony, and Kent....>See I like when people actually can have discussions and not bicker/ back and forth. 


I get both of your thoughts. and they are greatly appreciated. 

Thanks. for your imput


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## tagmaster10 (Jan 26, 2011)

Ok, after waisting this much time reading all of your posts about the subject, I only have this to say: Just because known is your thing, does not mean that everyone in the sport should want to change the game. I like the fact that judging yardage is part of the game and I am sure that alot if not most of the shooters in unknown classes feel the same way. Known classes were put in place to give shooters that option. As far as class sizes go, for years, Hunter has been one of the largest classes at every shoot and this is a big draw for me. I want all the competetion that I can get to shoot against.


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## tmorelli (Jul 31, 2005)

tagmaster10 said:


> Ok, after waisting this much time reading all of your posts about the subject, I only have this to say: Just because known is your thing, does not mean that everyone in the sport should want to change the game. I like the fact that judging yardage is part of the game and I am sure that alot if not most of the shooters in unknown classes feel the same way. Known classes were put in place to give shooters that option. As far as class sizes go, for years, Hunter has been one of the largest classes at every shoot and this is a big draw for me. I want all the competetion that I can get to shoot against.


I assume that was pointed at me Mike. .... and chill a bit. You didn't have to waste any time reading my posts. 

I'm not proposing to do away with unknown 3d. I only said that known has the potential to provide an answer to many of the "problems" (barrier to growth of the sport) and address the complaints of many of the "gripers". As such, I think it should be considered/prioritized more heavily than it is now rather than "shunned"....

I don't expect everyone to want to change the game. But I would encourage them not to stare at a good answer to a given problem and then turn and say "we're stuck between a rock and a hard place.... let's just keep doing what we've been doing and gripe about it more" as if that gets anything done.


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## victor001 (Jan 31, 2011)

I shoot all unknown . Around my part's that's all they shoot . Alot of little club's around hear with next to no people coming out for thier shoot's I'm sure would double thier att. if they had a marked shoot . A few club's to the south of us have more people every year than any other club's , and they have known shoot's . Don't know what the hard chore archer like's but I do know the general public like's marked . I do think there's less fear of missing a target . JMO


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## tagmaster10 (Jan 26, 2011)

tmorelli said:


> I assume that was pointed at me Mike. .... and chill a bit. You didn't have to waste any time reading my posts.
> 
> I'm not proposing to do away with unknown 3d. I only said that known has the potential to provide an answer to many of the "problems" (barrier to growth of the sport) and address the complaints of many of the "gripers". As such, I think it should be considered/prioritized more heavily than it is now rather than "shunned"....
> 
> I don't expect everyone to want to change the game. But I would encourage them not to stare at a good answer to a given problem and then turn and say "we're stuck between a rock and a hard place.... let's just keep doing what we've been doing and gripe about it more" as if that gets anything done.


Damm Tony.....don't have to take it as a personal attack. It was pointed to all that think we have to change the way things are done to suit their class. I respect what you think about this sport and all the good things you do for it. My point is just that we don't need to canabalize other classes to make your bigger.


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## tmorelli (Jul 31, 2005)

tagmaster10 said:


> My point is just that we don't need to canabalize other classes to make your bigger.


Agreed.


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## Garceau (Sep 3, 2010)

I dont think Tony ever meant to cannibalize another class for K50 to grow.

I do see his point when people win out of K45 and then just disappear, not sure if its the entry fee vs the payouts or what in K50. Some slide into Open A, and I can only assume (yeah assume) its to maintain a fairly significantly cheaper fee than K50.

Make K50 an 85 dollar a weekend class and watch it EXPLODE with attendance. Yes K45 would lose some for sure.


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## bhtr3d (Feb 13, 2004)

Garceau said:


> I dont think Tony ever meant to cannibalize another class for K50 to grow.
> 
> I do see his point when people win out of K45 and then just disappear, not sure if its the entry fee vs the payouts or what in K50. Some slide into Open A, and I can only assume (yeah assume) its to maintain a fairly significantly cheaper fee than K50.
> 
> Make K50 an 85 dollar a weekend class and watch it EXPLODE with attendance. Yes K45 would lose some for sure.



Kevin....that is completely the wrong way that K50 shooters would want to go. They are wanting to make it a ""PRO"" class , and taking the entry fee even farther down, would be extremely wrong, and ever making it a ''''PRO"" class. impo


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## Garceau (Sep 3, 2010)

bhtr3d said:


> Kevin....that is completely the wrong way that K50 shooters would want to go. They are wanting to make it a ""PRO"" class , and taking the entry fee even farther down, would be extremely wrong, and ever making it a ''''PRO"" class. impo


Maybe.....i guess id see it as this - do i want it to be more like a pro class or cash a bigger check at the end with it being further away from a pro class.

Sent from my Motorola Electrify using Tapatalk 2


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## tmorelli (Jul 31, 2005)

Garceau said:


> Maybe.....i guess id see it as this - do i want it to be more like a pro class or cash a bigger check at the end with it being further away from a pro class.
> 
> Sent from my Motorola Electrify using Tapatalk 2


I don't know what the right answer is. They are definitely two very different paths...

IMO, turning K50 into a pro-class has higher potential to grow from outside the sport and cleaning up "the path" from Bow Novice through the Open's and the K's can provide a long term benefit.

Wanna grow the class fast?.... lower the entry fee.... so the attendance rises... so the pay goes deeper. Who will it alienate?.... the "real" pro's that already shoot it... but, they're already somewhat alienated by in not being a pro class so it probably won't hurt anything.

I've had recent conversations with two high level 3d pro's (Open Pro) that shocked me. Both said, unprompted, that marked yardage is a primary key to growing the sport. 

Who's standing in the way? Mathews is what I'm told.


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## 3-D Quest (Jan 26, 2007)

Kstigall said:


> Some of the folks that gripe about "known" 3D don't like it because there is NO hiding a poorly executed shot that hits high or low behind "my yardage was off". The same folks really don't like shooting indoor spots because a long list of excuses for yipping a shot are no longer valid. Unwilling to acknowledge their shot and psychological weaknesses their 3D game fails to evolve.


Couldn't have said it better myself! This is exactly why UK Saturday and K Sunday didn't last in the senior divisions.
Like I said, 50/50 would solve a lot of problems.


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## shootist (Aug 28, 2003)

Kstigall said:


> Some of the folks that gripe about "known" 3D don't like it because there is NO hiding a poorly executed shot that hits high or low behind "my yardage was off". The same folks really don't like shooting indoor spots because a long list of excuses for yipping a shot are no longer valid. Unwilling to acknowledge their shot and psychological weaknesses their 3D game fails to evolve.


Most people that I know shooting unknown just like the challenge of judging distance.


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## n2bows (May 21, 2002)

tmorelli said:


> I don't know what the right answer is. They are definitely two very different paths...
> 
> IMO, turning K50 into a pro-class has higher potential to grow from outside the sport and cleaning up "the path" from Bow Novice through the Open's and the K's can provide a long term benefit.
> 
> ...


First let me say, that I have never said that ASA should not offer unknown distance classes. The way that it is done now is good, they offer something for everyone (almost), They just need to do a little tweeking. 

The K50 class has been treated like red headed step children ever since it was started! (And most of us know the reason for that.) When ASA did away with the Limited Pro class, that was the perfect time for them to go ahead and make the K50 a legetment Known Pro class. In every type of sports whether it is archery, football, golf or racing. There is a Pro level that is there as the ultiment goal for most people to achieve. And known distance 3-D dosen't have that right now. When ASA does finally make the K50 a Known Pro class, that is when the class WILL draw shooters from other venues. And that's WHEN the contingencey and more sponsors WILL come. 

I also feel that the K45 should be treated more like a semi-pro known class.


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## tagmaster10 (Jan 26, 2011)

n2bows said:


> First let me say, that I have never said that ASA should not offer unknown distance classes. The way that it is done now is good, they offer something for everyone (almost), They just need to do a little tweeking.
> 
> The K50 class has been treated like red headed step children ever since it was started! (And most of us know the reason for that.) When ASA did away with the Limited Pro class, that was the perfect time for them to go ahead and make the K50 a legetment Known Pro class. In every type of sports whether it is archery, football, golf or racing. There is a Pro level that is there as the ultiment goal for most people to achieve. And known distance 3-D dosen't have that right now. When ASA does finally make the K50 a Known Pro class, that is when the class WILL draw shooters from other venues. And that's WHEN the contingencey and more sponsors WILL come.
> 
> I also feel that the K45 should be treated more like a semi-pro known class.



So, by that logic....they should also have a "Pro Hunter" class? IMHO, the Open Pro and Senior Pro are plenty and serve well as an ultimate goal for those headed that direction. 

Sponsors are not looking for several pro divisions in any sport. They look to the best of the best as their marketing tools.


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## n2bows (May 21, 2002)

tagmaster10 said:


> So, by that logic....they should also have a "Pro Hunter" class? IMHO, the Open Pro and Senior Pro are plenty and serve well as an ultimate goal for those headed that direction.
> 
> Sponsors are not looking for several pro divisions in any sport. They look to the best of the best as their marketing tools.


I agree that there should be a Pro Hunter class. But you are wrong, when you say that the open pro and senior pro are plenty and serve well as an ultimate goal for those headed that direction. They known distance shooters and the unknown distance shooters are playing TWO DIFFERENT games! With that logic, there should only be pro archers, no pro dot shooters, no pro fita, no pro women, no pro world cup. ect, ect ect.


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## Kstigall (Feb 24, 2004)

I am shooting K45. I shot 2 K45 shoots last summer, London and the Classic. I shot Uchee Creek and plan to shoot London, Metropolis and the Classic this year. IF lightning strikes and I win out what will I do next year? I am 50 years young and my physical ability to shoot and eye sight are not going to improve and may decline measurably. Do I shoot K50 (Semi-Pro), Semi-Pro, Open A, Unlimited or quit shooting nationals ASA tournaments? I will most likely shoot K50 UNLESS it turns into a "Pro" class!!!! If I can't improve my yardage guessing I must decide between "playing at national level 3D" or finding something else to waste money and time on..... More fishing, hunting and gun shooting come to mind......not a bad thing! Right now I could stop shooting K45 and shoot Senior Open.

Of course the "old guys" want all unknown shooting. All the vast majority of "senior" 3D'ers know is shooting unknown distances and so consequently that is what they like. It's hard to like something you have no or little experience with. I see quite a few guys shooting K45 that appear to be in their late 40's or older. So with that said I am not for K50 becoming a true "pro" class with a stupendous entry fee. I'm sure there are a few guys winning in K50 that would love to see the entry fee doubled! At this point making K50 a true Pro class will do little to attract the Cousins, Wildes and Gellenthiens to shoot the ASA circuit. Their schedules are quite full as it is. Keeping it a "Semi-Pro" class WILL keep the class slowly growing up to a certain extent. But I wonder if making it a $75 class would not have it growing even faster! I bet that it would. I would even consider making it K55 but then it would have to be another range or at least an additional stake on a 50 yard range.


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## Kstigall (Feb 24, 2004)

tagmaster10 said:


> So, by that logic....they should also have a "Pro Hunter" class? IMHO, the Open Pro and Senior Pro are plenty and serve well as an ultimate goal for those headed that direction.
> 
> Sponsors are not looking for several pro divisions in any sport. They look to the best of the best as their marketing tools.


A "Known" distance 3D "Pro" would be the best of the best in that game. It's a different game and one which dearly needs to have the 14 in play!!


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## tmorelli (Jul 31, 2005)

Kstigall said:


> A "Known" distance 3D "Pro" would be the best of the best in that game. It's a different game and one which dearly needs to have the 14 in play!!


AMEN!!! Preach on brother!!


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## n2bows (May 21, 2002)

Kstigall said:


> I am shooting K45. I shot 2 K45 shoots last summer, London and the Classic. I shot Uchee Creek and plan to shoot London, Metropolis and the Classic this year. IF lightning strikes and I win out what will I do next year? I am 50 years young and my physical ability to shoot and eye sight are not going to improve and may decline measurably. Do I shoot K50 (Semi-Pro), Semi-Pro, Open A, Unlimited or quit shooting nationals ASA tournaments? I will most likely shoot K50 UNLESS it turns into a "Pro" class!!!! If I can't improve my yardage guessing I must decide between "playing at national level 3D" or finding something else to waste money and time on..... More fishing, hunting and gun shooting come to mind......not a bad thing! Right now I could stop shooting K45 and shoot Senior Open.
> 
> Of course the "old guys" want all unknown shooting. All the vast majority of "senior" 3D'ers know is shooting unknown distances and so consequently that is what they like. It's hard to like something you have no or little experience with. I see quite a few guys shooting K45 that appear to be in their late 40's or older. So with that said I am not for K50 becoming a true "pro" class with a stupendous entry fee. I'm sure there are a few guys winning in K50 that would love to see the entry fee doubled! At this point making K50 a true Pro class will do little to attract the Cousins, Wildes and Gellenthiens to shoot the ASA circuit. Their schedules are quite full as it is. Keeping it a "Semi-Pro" class WILL keep the class slowly growing up to a certain extent. But I wonder if making it a $75 class would not have it growing even faster! I bet that it would. I would even consider making it K55 but then it would have to be another range or at least an additional stake on a 50 yard range.


It wouldn't suprise me if ASA had a senior known class in the next five years.


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## Kstigall (Feb 24, 2004)

n2bows said:


> It wouldn't suprise me if ASA had a senior known class in the next five years.


It's something to ponder. IF I win out this year, something I intend to do, I have to either go to the semi-pro K50 or make a BIG leap to an ALL unknown class. I can't see making K50 a _pure_ pro class at this time much helping grow the game. I may need to find out if shooting K50 will force me to shoot "Pro" in NFAA indoor competition. I had not thought about it until just now and I'm not concerned........

Thinking out loud....... Should K45 winners be allowed to move to Open B? Open B is the same distance but it's half _unknown_ distance. It may give a path for known distance archers to develop some yardage guessing skills. There were 142 archers in K45 at Uchee Creek. It may be time to contemplate the possibilities of where all these archers may continue their ASA participation.


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## tmorelli (Jul 31, 2005)

Kstigall said:


> I may need to find out if shooting K50 will force me to shoot "Pro" in NFAA indoor competition. I had not thought about it until just now and I'm not concerned........
> .


I wouldn't think so.... but let me know if you find out differently.


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## n2bows (May 21, 2002)

Kstigall said:


> It's something to ponder. IF I win out this year, something I intend to do, I have to either go to the semi-pro K50 or make a BIG leap to an ALL unknown class. I can't see making K50 a _pure_ pro class at this time much helping grow the game. I may need to find out if shooting K50 will force me to shoot "Pro" in NFAA indoor competition. I had not thought about it until just now and I'm not concerned........
> 
> Thinking out loud....... Should K45 winners be allowed to move to Open B? Open B is the same distance but it's half _unknown_ distance. It may give a path for known distance archers to develop some yardage guessing skills. There were 142 archers in K45 at Uchee Creek. It may be time to contemplate the possibilities of where all these archers may continue their ASA participation.


Open C and Open B are stepping stone classes for archers to decide if they want to take the known path (K45) or the unknown path (Open A). That's the reason archers that win their way out of K45 are not allowed to move into Open B.


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## rattlinman (Dec 30, 2004)

I'm not a big proponent either way...and I agree that there should be a direction for the K45 to work toward...but my question would be: if you make K50 a Pro Class, would they be required to have their own shootoff or be added to the Pro shootoff?


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## Kstigall (Feb 24, 2004)

n2bows said:


> Open C and Open B are stepping stone classes for archers to decide if they want to take the known path (K45) or the unknown path (Open A). That's the reason archers that win their way out of K45 are not allowed to move into Open B.


I understand the "current" thinking and reasoning. But what if you have 142 archers in K45 and a lot of them consider going to Open B a "step up" because of the unknown targets? It is not the distance that defines the class so much as the skill level of the players. It is not unreasonable to think those that may be weak in judging yardage would consider going from K45 to Open B a much bigger challenge than moving up to K50. At the current time K45 is a step "up" for many in Open B ONLY if judging yardage is a real strength and precision shooting is their "weakness" in relation to others in K45. If K45 continues to grow (142 at Uchee Cr) then the reasoning behind the "steps" in the ASA may evolve. However, by forcing all the K45 archers registering after the 80th to shoot both ranges on Saturday it should or rather may restrict it's growth.

K45 and K50 are different games from Open A, Semi-Pro, Pro and even Open B. The 14's should be in play in K45 and K50. It is much more exciting when 14's have to be considered on each target.


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## bhtr3d (Feb 13, 2004)

tmorelli said:


> I wouldn't think so.... but let me know if you find out differently.


No, it doesnt. it is not a pro class... nfaa pro card holders can shoot k50....but k50 shooters don't have to shoot anything pro - for nfaa


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## n2bows (May 21, 2002)

Kstigall said:


> I understand the "current" thinking and reasoning. But what if you have 142 archers in K45 and a lot of them consider going to Open B a "step up" because of the unknown targets? It is not the distance that defines the class so much as the skill level of the players. It is not unreasonable to think those that may be weak in judging yardage would consider going from K45 to Open B a much bigger challenge than moving up to K50. At the current time K45 is a step "up" for many in Open B ONLY if judging yardage is a real strength and precision shooting is their "weakness" in relation to others in K45. If K45 continues to grow (142 at Uchee Cr) then the reasoning behind the "steps" in the ASA may evolve. However, by forcing all the K45 archers registering after the 80th to shoot both ranges on Saturday it should or rather may restrict it's growth.
> 
> 
> 
> K45 and K50 are different games from Open A, Semi-Pro, Pro and even Open B. The 14's should be in play in K45 and K50. It is much more exciting when 14's have to be considered on each target.


An archer should decide if they want to shoot known or unknown BEFORE they get to K45. That is the whole idea of Open C and Open B.


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## 450r20 (Nov 19, 2008)

I kinda miss the 14 it did make it interesting! But i do think the scores was a little closer. Either way I had a blast! Don't know where to go next year! 
I guess I'll have all winter to think about it.


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## tmorelli (Jul 31, 2005)

n2bows said:


> An archer should decide if they want to shoot known or unknown BEFORE they get to K45. That is the whole idea of Open C and Open B.


I'm not sure that I agree Kelly. By taking the Open B/C route, they already decided to shoot unknown. That's what I mean when I say "clean up the path to/through K45"....

Personally, I'm would want to format so that the only 50/50 class would be at the introductory level (Novice). After that, it's either all known or all unknown.


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## Kstigall (Feb 24, 2004)

n2bows said:


> An archer should decide if they want to shoot known or unknown BEFORE they get to K45. That is the whole idea of Open C and Open B.


You are looking at it as everyone starts their _competitive_ archery hobby with unknown distance 3D such as Hunter or Open C. That is not always the case. I started competing in "Bow Hunter" classes with some modest success. I shot pins in national spot tournaments up until late May with some modest success. I haven't been a "novice" archer in more than a few decades so Open C or Bow Novice was not, in my mind, an option.

I do not know where in the future experienced K45'ers will go but I'm betting the ASA has their fingers on the pulse of the Known distance classes. If the class continues to grow I expect the ASA will be more than willing and able to accommodate their customers. Heck, IF I had the time and money to practice yardage guessing I wouldn't mind making a run in the Senior Pro class so the idea of getting beat does not bother me in the least! But I don't care to pay a premium to take an asss whipping........$50 is enough!


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## tmorelli (Jul 31, 2005)

Kstigall said:


> Heck, IF I had the time and money to practice yardage guessing I wouldn't mind making a run in the Senior Pro class....


I overheard a conversation the other day that made my ears perk up. They said something to the effect that the Senior classes were shrinking.....

and then it dawned on me that they were talking about the size of the participants, not the quantity. 

If you hurry, you'll fit right in!... for a little while.









:set1_polevault:


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## carlosii (Feb 25, 2007)

just curious...does ASA charge a late registration fee to walkups? there's a thread in the nfaa pro forum where they're complaining about a 50 dollar late registration fee, i think for they say the pros. they're saying late registrations put too much pressure on the ladies at registration...just wondering.


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## Kstigall (Feb 24, 2004)

Maybe one day there will known distance classes such as "Known A", "Known B" and "Known C" but that seems well down the road. Right now we have "Known A/Semi-Pro" (K50) and Known B/A (K45).

Taking the 14 ring off the Known distance targets really took some of the "excitement" out of the game! At least it has for me. Now you step to the stake and only focus on the 12 ring and decide how aggressive you will be. Previously, there frequently was a little voice whispering in your ear "don't be a wuss go for the 14" or "fool, you are giving points away if you go for the 14"! Sometimes you couldn't help but eyeball the 14 even after you decided to go for a connector side 12.


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## tmorelli (Jul 31, 2005)

carlosii said:


> just curious...does ASA charge a late registration fee to walkups? there's a thread in the nfaa pro forum where they're complaining about a 50 dollar late registration fee, i think for they say the pros. they're saying late registrations put too much pressure on the ladies at registration...just wondering.


No ASA does not. I pay the same price to pre-register as if I sign up on Friday afternoon at the shoot.

NFAA doesn't just charge pro's the late fee.


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## Kstigall (Feb 24, 2004)

tmorelli said:


> I overheard a conversation the other day that made my ears perk up. They said something to the effect that the Senior classes were shrinking.....
> 
> and then it dawned on me that they were talking about the size of the participants, not the quantity.
> 
> ...



:wink: The fat guys don't tend to last a long time....... Will-X-It is a big man but he doesn't measure out vertically to a whole lot. If he'd take the boots off I think I could stand on my tippy toes and see the top of his head! Maybe there should be a Senior Pro Short Man class........... That way the old big guys could keep their machismo intact!


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## tmorelli (Jul 31, 2005)

Kstigall said:


> :wink: The fat guys don't tend to last a long time....... Will-X-It is a big man but he doesn't measure out vertically to a whole lot. If he'd take the boots off I think I could stand on my tippy toes and see the top of his head! Maybe there should be a Senior Pro Short Man class........... That way the old big guys could keep their machismo intact!


Oh, for a minute I thought you were calling me fat. :caked:


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## Kstigall (Feb 24, 2004)

carlosii said:


> just curious...does ASA charge a late registration fee to walkups? there's a thread in the nfaa pro forum where they're complaining about a 50 dollar late registration fee, i think for they say the pros. they're saying late registrations put too much pressure on the ladies at registration...just wondering.


I hate to say it but the folks running the NFAA are well behind the ASA and even the IBO when it comes to running a tournament. No late fees in the ASA. 

This is how it works. Approach the trailer at about 9:00 am on Friday. Stand in line behind 3 or 4 people. In about 7 or 8 minutes you are at the front of the line. In 2 or 3 minutes a card is printed out with your range assignment and target assignment printed on it along with the shoot times for both Saturday and Sunday. If you chose to shoot the team shoot that starts at 1 o'clock _that_ day that also is printed on the card as is whether you paid to use the 3D practice range. Mosy over to the board and check the list to see whom is your team shoot Pro. That's it....... Be at your assigned starting target about 30 minutes before the shoot start.

In the Known 45 class there were 142 shooters. Way too many folks for one 20 target range. Soooooo, right before the shoot time half the folks, those on targets 1-9, were told to go to the Simms range as it was being re-aligned to accommodate the large class. No problem. We were shooting probably within 30-40 minutes of our scheduled shoot time with 4 to a group. The ASA does a damn good job of running a sprawling outdoor tournament with 1400 archers where the environment can have a real impact. The NFAA is WAYYYYY behind in their use of technology, leadership and general organizational abilities.


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## rattlinman (Dec 30, 2004)

Kstigall said:


> I understand the "current" thinking and reasoning. But what if you have 142 archers in K45 and a lot of them consider going to Open B a "step up" because of the unknown targets? It is not the distance that defines the class so much as the skill level of the players. It is not unreasonable to think those that may be weak in judging yardage would consider going from K45 to Open B a much bigger challenge than moving up to K50. At the current time K45 is a step "up" for many in Open B ONLY if judging yardage is a real strength and precision shooting is their "weakness" in relation to others in K45. If K45 continues to grow (142 at Uchee Cr) then the reasoning behind the "steps" in the ASA may evolve. However, by forcing all the K45 archers registering after the 80th to shoot both ranges on Saturday it should or rather may restrict it's growth.
> 
> K45 and K50 are different games from Open A, Semi-Pro, Pro and even Open B. The 14's should be in play in K45 and K50. It is much more exciting when 14's have to be considered on each target.





tmorelli said:


> I'm not sure that I agree Kelly. By taking the Open B/C route, they already decided to shoot unknown. That's what I mean when I say "clean up the path to/through K45"....
> 
> Personally, I'm would want to format so that the only 50/50 class would be at the introductory level (Novice). After that, it's either all known or all unknown.


I agree with kstigall on this one. I started in Open C, then B, then switched to a "HunterClass" setup and got serious for a couple of years. Now I'm stepping up to Open A because 1. I wouldn't be considered a Novice, 2. my skill level is a mixture of yardage judging and shot placement...not necessarily "spot shooting". But I have several good friends that started out as spot shooters, wanted to try an outdoor ASA format, and started out in K45. Now, honestly, their yardage judging is very poor, so if they wanted to move up and didn't want to go into a Pro Class or K50, then IMO they should be able to move into Open B. It would be a great opportunity for them to practice yardage judging one day and spot shooting the next. Maybe they get good enough to move up...maybe not. But to push them into Open A with no judging skills is not good, and having no other options than Open Pro or K50 is not the best either.

I say make Open C a starting point for Hunter Class or first time novice 3d shooters, but set Open B as the next step for K45 to try their luck at judging.


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## n2bows (May 21, 2002)

If an archer makes less than $600 in K45. Then they can move back to Open B. 

I understand what you guys are saying about someone that is a dot shooter and coming into ASA and starting off in K45. And then thinking about trying unknown distance at a later date. But that is the whole idea of Open C/B, to give them a little taste of both. And I don't see ASA adding several more levels of known distance classes anytime soon. And I know this is not the perfect situation for everyone. But I believe it is best ASA can do RIGHT NOW. 

I am not trying to be a smart A-- here. But the simple fact of the matter is, that a person entering any type of competition should read and know the rules. And they should know the progression of the competitive classes before they sign up.


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## rattlinman (Dec 30, 2004)

I think your wrong on the addition of more known classes, as Tmorelli stated, they are the wave of the future. With almost everyone carrying a rangefinder hunting these days, the art of judging distance is slowly going away. My local club just added new Known classes for women this year just because of how many were asking for it. Look at the growth in the K45 in Georgia. If they want more members, they will add them.

And yep, I'm aware of the rules, didn't think you were tryin to be an a-hole, but knowing the rule has little to do with the discussion of options for people that WIN out of K45....which is what I thought we are discussing.


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## Kstigall (Feb 24, 2004)

Thinking out loud again...... 
- If you win out of K45 AND have not won out of Open B previously you can shoot in Open B. You move up _immediately _to Open A, Unlimited or higher if you have ONE top 5 finish.

Something like the above would give archers shooting out of K45 an opportunity to work on their yardage guessing without jumping to a big boys unknown yardage class. Guys winning out of Hunter and Open C can shoot K45 and then move _across_ to Open B. The only issue I see is that this could possibly slow the growth of K50 as some K45 winners would go to Open B at least temporarily. One top 5 finish in Open B would have the archer moving to K50 or Open A.

I'm convinced that K50 will continue to grow at a steady rate from within the current 3D world. I'm not convinced that K50 needs for any of the current dedicated spot shooters to come on board to grow.


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## n2bows (May 21, 2002)

rattlinman said:


> I think your wrong on the addition of more known classes, as Tmorelli stated, they are the wave of the future. With almost everyone carrying a rangefinder hunting these days, the art of judging distance is slowly going away. My local club just added new Known classes for women this year just because of how many were asking for it. Look at the growth in the K45 in Georgia. If they want more members, they will add them.
> 
> And yep, I'm aware of the rules, didn't think you were tryin to be an a-hole, but knowing the rule has little to do with the discussion of options for people that WIN out of K45....which is what I thought we are discussing.


You preaching to the choir when it comes to known distance classes. I have ALWAYS been one of the biggest proponents of known distance in ASA. With the classes that ASA NOW has, I feel that the progression through the classes is the best that it can be. And I still feel that the K50 should be a Pro class. I would rather the known distance classes were: Novice Known, Known, Semi Pro Known, Pro Known. for both men and women, and I also think they should have a Senior Known Class.


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## reylamb (Feb 5, 2003)

Personally, I would think a good fit would be:

Open C - all known
Open B - 50/50
K45- all known
Open A -all unknown

That would give a truely natural progression for folks to decide if they want to go the known path or the unknown path.


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## BigDirk (Dec 24, 2010)

STRICNINE said:


> Yeah, the k45 split up was actually very nice! I hope they keep the format going forward. Only 4 to a target which made it quick and really gave us time to focus on the shooting. Great times!


Not good for those who wanted to shoot SIMS... Maybe they need to add another SIMS course.. I saw you shot pretty well. Congrats man!!!


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## bhtr3d (Feb 13, 2004)

The sims will not have an issue (hopefully) if some of the other classes no grow then maybe but with the new structures pOp


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## 450r20 (Nov 19, 2008)

Seen on the Asa web site that from now on they will be 80 spots open to shoot on Saturday and Sunday! Every one else will have to shoot them all on Saturday


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## tmorelli (Jul 31, 2005)

450r20 said:


> Seen on the Asa web site that from now on they will be 80 spots open to shoot on Saturday and Sunday! Every one else will have to shoot them all on Saturday


Not all classes.... K45 and a few others.


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## 450r20 (Nov 19, 2008)

Yea hunter and known 45


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