# D-loop adjustments & effect on hold/balance



## enderson (Apr 21, 2015)

Hi all~

Please discuss thoughts on slight vertical adjustments of d-loop to fine tune hold and bow balance. Lets assume DL and d-loop length are already relatively close to ideal.

I've always just set my nocking point dead center through the berger hole and tied the d-loop around it. I feel like there may be advantages to approaching this a different way. Maybe shooting with d-loop a 1/16th or 1/8th higher and also lower than standard and see how the bow holds. No need to tune arrow rest yet, only matters how the bow holds.

This is stemming from a tendency I've noticed in my shooting. My hold with various bows, and just about every stabilizer weight combo possible tends to bob out the bottom. There are periods where I can float within the X-ring at 20yrds but at some point the tendency to bob low comes back to varying degrees depending on the bow. I'm a consistent 55x+ at practice rounds indoors 5-spot so this is not a really severe persistent bob low, but the slight pattern is there nonetheless. Worked countless hours on low rear shoulder and relaxed bow hand and lower grip pressure. 30" front bar with 15" rear and played with heavy skew to back weight. What I have not worked with is any tiller tuning or moving d-loop position. All thoughts welcome!


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

Well, I'll start. Draw length needs to be pretty dead on, short if nothing else. Look to the d-loop. Low is not a option and high is preferred regardless of height, 1/16" to as much as 3/8". It should be a perfect ">" back to the string.


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## LMacD (Mar 16, 2015)

I'm interested to see the comments on this one. I've been using the "P" loop [i.e. the whole loop is under the nock, a la Rodger Willett] and like it, but haven't committed to it quite yet. And off we go...


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## D.Short (Aug 5, 2010)

Yes,I would like to here more on this issue. I feel this is one of those tiny overlooked things that is a very,very important factor that can make the difference between a average hold/ float and an awsome hold that really isn't talked about.
More please,more


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

LMacD said:


> I'm interested to see the comments on this one. I've been using the "P" loop [i.e. the whole loop is under the nock, a la Rodger Willett] and like it, but haven't committed to it quite yet. And off we go...


Type of loop is but a personal preference. I've used many and had success with all, just prefer string tied nocks and regular d-loop.


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## cbrunson (Oct 25, 2010)

It would have some minor affect on grip angle similar to an advanced top cam (with solid stops) or tiller adjustment. I prefer to set my rest as low as possible for vane clearance with room for tuning. That minimizes bubble error at longer distances. 

I believe the tiller adjustment is the best way to get what you're looking for. Opinions will vary.


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## jmann28 (Nov 22, 2010)

I've found with the elite's in particular (perhaps this goes for all Binary cam systems), that having the arrow in the top half of the berger button, produces a better hold. I'd say the center of my dloop is through the top 1/3rd of the berger button.


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## Huntinsker (Feb 9, 2012)

To me it makes sense that having the loop higher would help keep your pin/scope up on target. If you move the loop up, this will cause more tension on the top draw stop and will give you more leverage to hold the bow up. If you take it to the extreme and were to draw the bow with your loop up above the peep sight, you'd see that the top cam will rotate much further than the bottom as the string is pulled more directly off of that cam. By moving the loop up a little, you're doing the same thing on a smaller scale. 

For this reason, I don't think it's a coincidence that you'll hear a lot of people say that they like how their bow holds, shoot and tunes when the arrow is running high in the berger hole. 

On a side note, I know you say you've worked on a low back shoulder but what about your front shoulder. A high front shoulder, whether it's just part of your form or your form breaking down as you fatigue, can cause the dropping or holding low problem. As your front shoulder raises up, the bow will force your arm down. Think of it like this. If you were to put a hinge in the middle of a 2x4 and lay it flat so that the full length of the board is in a line, then press straight toward the center of the board from each end, the board would stay straight even though there's a hinge in the middle. Now bend the board up several degrees like a high shoulder would be and press inwards on each end. The hinge would raise even higher and the front end that would be your hand, drops low. That's what the bow's holding weight does to your bow arm when your front shoulder elevates.

Here's a good video by GRIV on keeping the front shoulder low, I think it also has the back shoulder video as well in the second half of the vid. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TJbu3GtfUro


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## Strodav (Apr 25, 2012)

Was listening to a Dudley podcast and picked up an interesting tidbit. He was going to extreme lengths trying to set up two identical bows (main and backup) for the exact same feel. He found a significant factor in how the bow feels is the height of the dloop. I usually set up my bows to have the arrow running through the Berger hole and set the starting nock point so the arrow is perpendicular to the string. Rarely adjust the rest up or down. Thinking as part of tuning I should play with the arrow height to see how it changes how the bow feels.


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

For arrow height, I've found not to have the center of the shaft not below the bottom of berger hole and not to have the center of the shaft above the top of berger hole. This is a pretty wide range to search for a sweet spot. I prefer center of the shaft a bit above center of the berger hole and then have a little down play for the arrow rest. Still, I "read" the d-loop back to the string.


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## RCR_III (Mar 19, 2011)

I'm going to give a lot of scenarios here on bobbing below the target. It really could be a lot of different things. It has some to do with form, and also when it is happening and how. Such as the dot floating normal and then dropping down as you pull through your shot. Or the dot going in a vertical pattern throughout the entire shot process no matter what. 

Look at the shoulders. On the release side, you want the lower neck/upper shoulder muscle to be relaxed. This will bring the shoulder down and the elbow around behind the head and inline with your eye, peep, and target. It also engages the bigger back muscles, which is where you gain stability from. 

The bow shoulder is the same. Those same muscles need to be relaxed and you need to rely on the larger back muscles to hold the bow up, and the triceps to hold the bow out. Also, you are relying on bone and skeletal structure for support. The problem you can run into is the bow shoulder coming up and the muscles becoming the holding point. What this does is make the shoulder joint a hinge point and cause you to fight the bow up and down. The shoulder needs to stay down and out. When done right, you'll have a dip in the shoulder above the joint. 

Another area to look at is the grip style and pressure. A high wrist grip, where you're pushing into the bow with the webbing of the hand between the thumb and fore finger can push the bow downwards. A medium to lower wrist grip will have the opposite affects. 

Your grip coming into play is where changing the loop height can help. When you raise the loop up, you are changing pulling points and pressure points. You are pulling the top of the bow down into the hand and this brings the bow up or holds it up. If you lower the loop down, then you put the pressure points on the bottom part of your grip and it will bring the bow down. 

Another thing to look at is the stabilizers and how they are weighted. Most everyone will say if the bow is dropping down, load the back bar. I would say look at this the opposite way and load the front bar or bring the bias to the front bar to give a balance forward affect to the bow. Why you may ask? The job of the stabilizers on your bow is to give direction and stabilize it. So, if you put the bow in a balanced forward position then you are going to have to set up the body from the very beginning to hold that up. This is the giving direction portion, because you are having to hold the bow's direction (of wanting to be forward balanced) up. Then throughout the shot, your already pre set to stay up on target with your muscles and skeletal structure.


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## dmacey (Mar 27, 2015)

Cool discussion... I personally like the arrow slightly below the Berger hole. I don't know why, but my bows seem to hold slightly better with the d-loop a little lower, maybe because that puts it closer to the center of the string? So that's just kind of where it ends up for me. 

My newly acquired Hoyt, however, won't shoot a good bareshaft at all at full poundage with the rest at the berger hole. The D loop is almost at the shelf, else it slings the bareshaft way way knock high, no matter how I adjust the wheel timing. Still debugging that one lol.

DM


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## enderson (Apr 21, 2015)

You guys are best! Thanks for all the very helpful and interesting replies. Exactly the direction I hoped the thread would go.

On another note, in recent shooting and slow motion video I've noticed a tendency in my shooting to pull up slightly on the release. This would obviously cause the issue of pulling the front end down. Played with several things from there but best solution I found was actually a different anchor point a little higher vertically. Release began pulling straight through beautifully and front and back and balancing each other out. Float also the most consistent I've experienced so far.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

enderson said:


> You guys are best! Thanks for all the very helpful and interesting replies. Exactly the direction I hoped the thread would go.
> 
> On another note, in recent shooting and slow motion video I've noticed a tendency in my shooting to pull up slightly on the release. This would obviously cause the issue of pulling the front end down. Played with several things from there but best solution I found was actually a different anchor point a little higher vertically. Release began pulling straight through beautifully and front and back and balancing each other out. Float also the most consistent I've experienced so far.


Play with Grip angle. Sugru and GRIV Thing a Week #12.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qFIq0-Qde3k


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

Read. Field14 jumps in. http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=1097929


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

dmacey said:


> Cool discussion... I personally like the arrow slightly below the Berger hole. I don't know why, but my bows seem to hold slightly better with the d-loop a little lower, maybe because that puts it closer to the center of the string? So that's just kind of where it ends up for me.
> 
> My newly acquired Hoyt, however, won't shoot a good bareshaft at all at full poundage with the rest at the berger hole. The D loop is almost at the shelf, else it slings the bareshaft way way knock high, no matter how I adjust the wheel timing. Still debugging that one lol.
> 
> DM


Bow tuning Forum. Ever read Draw Stop timing by JAVI? Spoke with him once on the phone. Awesome guy. Got me going with draw stop timing and use it for most all double cam bows. I've had a few Hoyts in Cam&1/2 and all once synced and timed had the arrow pretty much dead center of the berger hole and mostly with 1/16" high nock setting, checked with a arrow level. Sort of went with advancing the top cam (JAVI calls it a oval wheel  ). However, once I really got into it, advancing the top cam was actually correctly timing the bow by getting the cable to lay exactly flat in the module groove for it. So to me, it wasn't advancing the cam, but timing it correctly. And it was no different with Martin's Cat Cams, Nitro Cams, and Hybrix Cams (Rytera bows), only both cams have the cables lay flat in the modules. Pearson's Legend and L series cams are even better for timing. The tabs are so out in the open you could these cams with a feeler gage.

Bare shaft tuning requires the best form and execution you can bring forth. Pain in the butt to me. French tuning done at longer distances has worked for me, 9 feet out to 50 and 55 yards. Always missing from French tuning is finishing up with playing with the height of the rest or nocking point. I do a pretty decent French tune using 9 to 10 feet and 30 yards and finishing with the rest and nock height. 
The thing is, you don't have to be "picture perfect" with French tuning. If you work with it on a law of averages you can be dead on up close and out to at least 80 yards. 
French tuned MarXman and the yuck bare shaft. A pair of 14s and a just below the X ring. $17.50 arrow Robin Hooded with that same bare shaft. Irked me good. I came back with a 3rd shot to show I on. Compare arrow to target and then Robin Hooded arrow to target....Disintegrated both the pin nock and pin bushing, couldn't find one tiny piece.


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## wv hoyt man (Feb 17, 2012)

Great thread.


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## dmacey (Mar 27, 2015)

Well this case is so knock-high, it just wouldn't be enjoyable to shoot. I'm still going through the process of elimination of the bits here and there that don't respond and I've marked off the wheel timing. It doesn't respond even when set at extremes either way, enough that I can feel it in the draw into the back wall. 

So next, after some suggestions by PM, I'm moving on to the rest. Right now it's my spare Trophy Taker, but with a very light, .008, blade on it. I may fit one of my trusty Spot Hogg Rover prong rests onto it next, since these have a tremendous amount of adjustability of the launcher tension. 

Oh well, this isn't the first time a bow has baffled me, and it usually comes down to some adjustment or other. Hopefully I'll figure it out before going completely senile.

DM


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## montigre (Oct 13, 2008)

dmacey said:


> So next, after some suggestions by PM, I'm moving on to the rest. Right now it's my spare Trophy Taker, but with a very light, .008, blade on it. DM


Before you change over to the Spot Hogg, try your Trophy Taker with a .010 blade on it. Sounds like you may be experiencing too much spring from the light blade causing the vertical issues. I shoot the .010 blade for pretty much everything--sometimes I have to run a backer if I decide to play with uber-heavy indoor arrows, but most times not. Also make sure you're not too high with the blade angle. A degree or two too high will cause havoc with your tuning.


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## dmacey (Mar 27, 2015)

montigre said:


> Before you change over to the Spot Hogg, try your Trophy Taker with a .010 blade on it. Sounds like you may be experiencing too much spring from the light blade causing the vertical issues. I shoot the .010 blade for pretty much everything--sometimes I have to run a backer if I decide to play with uber-heavy indoor arrows, but most times not. Also make sure you're not too high with the blade angle. A degree or two too high will cause havoc with your tuning.


Ok thanks, I was told by PM to try the same thing, so perhaps I ought to follow your advice . I don't have a .010 thickness blade though, but I can make a backer out of a spare blade. My arrows are GT ultralight 400's, which are pretty stiff for this bow even at 40lbs draw weight. So that may be aggravating the condition a little bit also (way way too stiff can be a little finicky). 

I'm not much of a lizard-tongue rest expert yet, since I've shot prong or wire + plunger rests most of my compound career, so this is a bit of a learning curve.

Thanks for the help, tho,

DM


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## montigre (Oct 13, 2008)

DM, you're probably not even going to need a .08 blade with a modern 40# bow. I'd recommend that you put your tuning on the back burner until you can pick up the correct tools for the job. Since you're not very used to using a blade, get a couple of .010 in the narrow version for your outdoor arrows and a couple in wide ones for your fatter indoor arrows. It's always a good idea to have a spare on hand in case you accidentally catch it on something and bend it.

Yes, the 400s are a bit stiff for your bow, but if your form and DL are spot on, you can get away with shooting a really stiff arrow (up to a point). If not, they may bite you in the nether regions....just something to think about....


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## dmacey (Mar 27, 2015)

montigre said:


> DM, you're probably not even going to need a .08 blade with a modern 40# bow. I'd recommend that you put your tuning on the back burner until you can pick up the correct tools for the job. Since you're not very used to using a blade, get a couple of .010 in the narrow version for your outdoor arrows and a couple in wide ones for your fatter indoor arrows. It's always a good idea to have a spare on hand in case you accidentally catch it on something and bend it.
> 
> Yes, the 400s are a bit stiff for your bow, but if your form and DL are spot on, you can get away with shooting a really stiff arrow (up to a point). If not, they may bite you in the nether regions....just something to think about....


I'm shooting an .008 wide with the same rest on the PSE and the same arrows go in the gold at 30 yards along with the fletched. It was a cinch to get the up-down straightened out with that bow and the left-right I did with 2 turns on the yoke and an afternoon adjusting the cable guard. Go figure lol.

I put the Hoyt in the closet a minute ago, though, since I want to go out and shoot today instead of fiddle. I got a lot more work to do on my shot and my PSE is well good enough dialed in and shooting much better than I am already...

DM


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