# If A.S.A. open b was ....



## 573mms (Jan 23, 2014)

I believe open c and open b should be all unkown. Were is they entry level class for guys that's strongest weapon is judging yardage? All the classes with known yardage is getting to be a joke.


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## toypar (Feb 7, 2008)

I think it needs to be unknown 45 or open b all unknown and a unknown 40 or open c. Then in the known classes a known 45 and a known 40


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## nccrutch (Feb 26, 2003)

Yep, i think the half and half experiment hasvworked. It has brought in some new shooters. Now i think all classes should be all unknown, or all known.


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## JimmyP (Feb 11, 2006)

Back when I shot in it open c and open b was all un known


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## tmorelli (Jul 31, 2005)

nccrutch said:


> Yep, i think the half and half experiment hasvworked. It has brought in some new shooters. Now i think all classes should be all unknown, or all known.


Agreed.


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## jimg (Apr 17, 2004)

573mms said:


> I believe open c and open b should be all unkown. Were is they entry level class for guys that's strongest weapon is judging yardage? All the classes with known yardage is getting to be a joke.




Why a joke. The classes with the known part are where the larger growth is in ASA

Open b had 163 shooters in the last asa 
Open a. 103
Known 45. Had 132

The known armature classes are getting 30-60% more shooters than the all unknown armature classes

I feel if pse, mathews, hoyt ect put up the contingencies in the known 50 class it would also grow larger than the pro class unknown


Side note. I shoot unknown class. But I would like half known.


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## josechno (Sep 20, 2007)

If Open B is all unknown and 45 yards then what will Open A be because its all unknown 45 yards max


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## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

nccrutch said:


> Yep, i think the half and half experiment hasvworked. It has brought in some new shooters. Now i think all classes should be all unknown, or all known.


Well said and I agree as well.
DB


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## mmiles1 (Aug 20, 2010)

Open B, Yes I can see it being all unknown with k45 being the known side progression, especially with the recent talk of a future known pro class. 



573mms said:


> I believe open c and open b should be all unkown. Were is they entry level class for guys that's strongest weapon is judging yardage? All the classes with known yardage is getting to be a joke.


If open C were all unknown, where would the entry level for open setup known yardage be? You can't shoot an open setup in novice, so straight to k45? I think known yardage is becoming more popular because everybody hunts with a range finder. I was pretty confident in my judging until I actually started trying to do it on a course and realized judging out of a tree stand is much different than judging on uneven ground, and I'm one of the few "younger guys" who bow hunted many years without a range finder. I can usually get within a couple yards, but "usually" and "a couple yards" won't cut it. What about the guys who never have and can't judge at all but want to shoot an open setup? Again, straight to k45?


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## wpk (Jan 31, 2009)

I think it should be 
c all unknown 40 yards 
b all unknown 45 yards
A all unknown 50 yards 

Then known 45 and known 50


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## josechno (Sep 20, 2007)

so get rid of Open C make it Known 40 (that's what it is) then Known 45, Known 50, 
Open B become all UNKNOWN 40 yrds max, then Open A 45 yards max, then Semi, OPen Pro


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## wpk (Jan 31, 2009)

josechno said:


> so get rid of Open C make it Known 40 (that's what it is) then Known 45, Known 50,
> Open B become all UNKNOWN 40 yrds max, then Open A 45 yards max, then Semi, OPen Pro


I like that better


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## Luv2shoot3D (Feb 4, 2013)

josechno said:


> so get rid of Open C make it Known 40 (that's what it is) then Known 45, Known 50,
> Open B become all UNKNOWN 40 yrds max, then Open A 45 yards max, then Semi, OPen Pro


This sounds good or open c will be half&half and open b be all unknown


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## J-Dubyah (Mar 6, 2010)

josechno said:


> so get rid of Open C make it Known 40 (that's what it is) then Known 45, Known 50,
> Open B become all UNKNOWN 40 yrds max, then Open A 45 yards max, then Semi, OPen Pro


That would make for good progressive movement.


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## sagecreek (Jul 15, 2003)

I like to shoot the 40 yard stake and I like to guess the yardage. That is what 3D is to me. ASA has taken that away from me. I don't feel there is a class for us that feel the same way any longer.


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## eliteshooter88 (Jan 24, 2013)

I like what some guys are saying open b all unknown 40
open a unknown 45 and
semi max 50 

this would be awsome and I would love it. It is hard to compete against some of these spot shooters. But it is what it is


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## sagecreek (Jul 15, 2003)

eliteshooter88 said:


> I like what some guys are saying open b all unknown 40
> open a unknown 45 and
> semi max 50
> 
> this would be awsome and I would love it. It is hard to compete against some of these spot shooters. But it is what it is


Sounds perfect to me.


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## 12sonly (Jan 6, 2007)

Got to remember asa is for profit business. More shooters more money!!!


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## Crs89 (Aug 5, 2013)

I recently started lookin at the Asa shoots to start getting into it and I don't really understand why there is any known distance. To me all 3-d shoots that was the real challenge I know the 12 and 14 ring are small and all but to me as a newbie that was the fun and challenge.


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## 573mms (Jan 23, 2014)

That don't mean you forget what 3d is all about. Their is 2 jobs in 3d judging yardage and executing a good shot, if you can't do both then your not much of a 3der. That's what levels the playing field, some people are better at yardage judging and some are better at shooting. If you take yardage judging out of the picture you might as well just have 300 shoots in the woods.


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## sagecreek (Jul 15, 2003)

I'm fine with having both. Known appeals to some, but not the true 3D'ers IMO.

I didn't like them forcing 1/2 and 1/2 on the 40 and 45 yard class.

It would be nice IMO if they separated them and let people shoot which ever one they want to.


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## Chuk22us (Feb 12, 2013)

I would gladly still shoot open b if it were all unknown. Would prefer it actually...I came through the ranks though from novice when all of those classes were unknown. 
For a new shooter there are no options for entry level classes with unknown yardage. To me this is a mistake. 
I think this also dictates the tract for new shooters. So I think the known distance trend will only continue, partly because of ASA's changes to known yardage in entry level classes.


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## jimb (Feb 17, 2003)

I agree with alot said, open C half and half as an entry into B and K45. Open B all unknown 40 yards.

But the known yardage classes are the fastest growing and that brings money.


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## schmel_me (Dec 17, 2003)

I like both aspects and think they do a good job at setting the classes so everyone fits. Start at open c (k40)then you go either k45 or head to open b and break into judging one day. Then open A (all unknown)and so forth. So at the start it gives you a start to pick your path.


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## sagecreek (Jul 15, 2003)

schmel_me said:


> I like both aspects and think they do a good job at setting the classes so everyone fits. Start at open c (k40)then you go either k45 or head to open b and break into judging one day. Then open A (all unknown)and so forth. So at the start it gives you a start to pick your path.


You want to "start" judging yardage at 45 yards. lain:


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## 573mms (Jan 23, 2014)

What if you want to start out in unkown, their is no unknown starter classes. Even. Bow novice 30yd max is known yardage, if you want to start in unkown open class you have to go all the way up to open a. Were are the unkown starter classes that gives the yardage guesser a fair shake?


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## sagecreek (Jul 15, 2003)

Why would a 30 yard male class need to be all known anyways. :noidea:


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## shooter74 (Jul 7, 2005)

all unknown would be great shot my best scores that way


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## dw'struth (Mar 14, 2008)

I've been shouting that open classes should be unknown ever since they introduced K-45&50. But, no one has listened. lol


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## jbuckles39 (Jan 25, 2010)

Entry level starts here= Novice: 30yrd max half known and half unknown
Then they can choose there path of progression here= Known or Unknown
K40:40yrd max known; Open B: 40yrd max unknown; Hunter 40yrd max unknown -->
K45; Open A -->
K50 "Semi"; Semi Pro 50yrd max unknown -->
K50 "Pro" -->
Open Pro

Make classes the same dollar amount to get bumped up but if a shooter wins a top three they are on to the next level.
And shooter of the year doesn't come into play till K45, Open A.


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## sagecreek (Jul 15, 2003)

jbuckles39 said:


> Entry level starts here= Novice: 30yrd max half known and half unknown
> Then they can choose there path of progression here= Known or Unknown
> K40:40yrd max known; Open B: 40yrd max unknown; Hunter 40yrd max unknown -->
> K45; Open A -->
> ...


Like it. Makes perfect sense to me. I never liked the fact of forcing shooting known on people who would rather shoot all unknown. I'm not a Open A shooter yet, probably never will be.


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## bamajk (Apr 30, 2006)

josechno said:


> so get rid of Open C make it Known 40 (that's what it is) then Known 45, Known 50,
> Open B become all UNKNOWN 40 yrds max, then Open A 45 yards max, then Semi, OPen Pro


This is the best option I have seen. Agree 100%.


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## STRICNINE (Oct 22, 2012)

bamajk said:


> This is the best option I have seen. Agree 100%.


I agree as well. As for the anti known distance comments, I haven't seen many hunting without rangefinders now a days.....even on tv. lol

I know guys that can be lights out unknown but really suffer in known and vice versa. I'm glad the ASA listens to the masses and gives all of us an opportunity to compete in classes we prefer and match our styles.


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## sagecreek (Jul 15, 2003)

STRICNINE said:


> I agree as well. As for the anti known distance comments, I haven't seen many hunting without rangefinders now a days.....even on tv. lol
> 
> I know guys that can be lights out unknown but really suffer in known and vice versa. I'm glad the ASA listens to the masses and gives all of us an opportunity to compete in classes we prefer and match our styles.


That's my point. This isn't hunting. It's 3D target archery. Some want to shoot unknown and some want to shoot known. I think known is great for guys who want to shoot that, but "if" you don't want to shoot unknown, you have to shoot in the Open A class. I'm comfortable shooting in the 40 yard class and would like to shoot that distance until I win out, which will be never.


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## STRICNINE (Oct 22, 2012)

I haven't been in the game long so please excuse my ignorance, but when 3d was introduced to me I was understanding that it was originally created to get folks more comfortable in hunting situations or to "refine" their hunting skills. Is this not correct?

I will add I REALLY respect anyone, pro or amatuer, that does great in unknown classes, very tough to do! It's also just as challenging to be in a known class as well. Being able to particpate in both has really opended my eyes to both sides of the fence.


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## dw'struth (Mar 14, 2008)

STRICNINE said:


> I agree as well. As for the anti known distance comments, I haven't seen many hunting without rangefinders now a days.....even on tv. lol
> 
> I know guys that can be lights out unknown but really suffer in known and vice versa. I'm glad the ASA listens to the masses and gives all of us an opportunity to compete in classes we prefer and match our styles.


Even on TV?? They use range finders cause it's another product to endorse. 

I definitely agree that one should be able to shoot all unknown without going to A. I said heck with it and went to A anyway. I probably don't need to be there, but I like unknown....


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## STRICNINE (Oct 22, 2012)

dw'struth said:


> Even on TV?? They use range finders cause it's another product to endorse.
> 
> I definitely agree that one should be able to shoot all unknown without going to A. I said heck with it and went to A anyway. I probably don't need to be there, but I like unknown....


Yeah, even on TV. I don't know, or have seen many folks in the woods or on TV not using a range finder when their bow is in their hands to put food on the table. Maybe I'm in the minority. People not on TV are not using them as an endorsement opportunity by the way. lol


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## Kstigall (Feb 24, 2004)

All unknown Open B directly to Open Pro? That's ridiculous. But not as ridiculous as going from K45 to Pro K50, Open A or Semi-Pro..........

It appears the time has come for better structuring of classes for Known distances archers.


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## athomPT (Dec 14, 2008)

josechno said:


> so get rid of Open C make it Known 40 (that's what it is) then Known 45, Known 50,
> Open B become all UNKNOWN 40 yrds max, then Open A 45 yards max, then Semi, OPen Pro


This ^^^^. Heck i shot 20pts higher last year at the classic on unknown lol....,dont ask why or how cause i dont know


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## jbeasleyshoot (Jan 29, 2008)

i like the open C being half and half 40 yard max then B being unknown 45 max. A could remain the way it is. This seems to give everyone a starting point and a chance to get there feet wet. If you shoot out of C you could go to K45 or B. But hey I said that the unknown should be more like K50 and k80 and got shot down pretty quick so what do I know.


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## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

I just never have understood why they ever did the half known and half unknown thing. I would have rather seen class's either all known or all unknown.

I remember back when this all started and I was a Open B class shooter. I literally loved shooting Open B all unknown. When they went to half and half it forced me to go find a all unknown class which is what worked for me being an old school guy that learned to judge yardage and enjoy that challenge in 3d.

All good things change and Im sure they had there good reasons. With all the changes we really have not seen major growth in the sport over all. It just seems some have changed class's. I said many years ago that we would see a 2000 in attendace in an ASA event in the future but that goal just hasnt happened yet. 
DB


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## Barn Burner Strings (Sep 10, 2011)

This is my opinion on the classes. 
Open-45 yard max all unknown. 
Semi- 50 yard max all unknown. 
Open pro-50 yard max all unknown. 

Known - 45 yard max. 
Known semi - 50 yard max. 
Known pro - 50 yard max. 

That's 6 classes. Instead of 7. There are way to many classes as it is. This would give a person a route to be a pro of their choice known/open. Just a thought.


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## bhtr3d (Feb 13, 2004)

Barn Burner said:


> This is my opinion on the classes.
> Open-45 yard max all unknown.
> Semi- 50 yard max all unknown.
> Open pro-50 yard max all unknown.
> ...


The amount of shooters....vs ranges would not work in this format


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## Kstigall (Feb 24, 2004)

Barn Burner said:


> This is my opinion on the classes.
> Open-45 yard max all unknown.
> Semi- 50 yard max all unknown.
> Open pro-50 yard max all unknown.
> ...





bhtr3d said:


> The amount of shooters....vs ranges would not work in this format


But it sounds good Tim! 


I hate it when people actually think, research and understand the issue.......... It makes things more complex which takes more computing (thinking) to figure out how to "improve". The only issue is that many times the issue IS complex and it takes a broad understanding and higher reasoning to come up with an improved product.


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## Barn Burner Strings (Sep 10, 2011)

It would work if we were willing to do something along the lines of Saturday one group shoots at 8am the other at noon. Then on Sunday it would be flopped. The group that shot at 8 would shoot at noon. Same 40 target course could hold 400 people with 5 to a stake I think my math is right. Let's say course A and B. 100 on A @ 8am 100 on B @ 8 am then 100on A @ 12pm and 100 on B @ 12pm. 526 combined shooters for Open A Open B Open C and Known 45. All 45 yard courses that would be combined in my scenario. So Open A and Open B would be combined into one class all (open) and have 266 if Tuscaloosa numbers were combined and Open C and Known 45 would be combined to make known 45 with 260 shooters. Surely there is a way to make it work. Imagine that pay out.


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## bhtr3d (Feb 13, 2004)

Barn Burner said:


> It would work if we were willing to do something along the lines of Saturday one group shoots at 8am the other at noon. Then on Sunday it would be flopped. The group that shot at 8 would shoot at noon. Same 40 target course could hold 400 people with 5 to a stake I think my math is right. Let's say course A and B. 100 on A @ 8am 100 on B @ 8 am then 100on A @ 12pm and 100 on B @ 12pm.


Let me sat it this way......it doesn't work in the as a model format. ....its a nice idea....just not a solution to the pie.


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## baller (Oct 4, 2006)

I'll chime in, and I am sure others have said this already. Here's what i'd like to see.....

For brand new shooters.....Novice as it is today.

For anyone who is not a "Novice" shooter.....


Known classes:
K40
K45
K50
KPro (50y max)

For Unknown Classes:
U40
U45
U50
UPro (50y max)


A few more classes, just as many shooters as would be in other classes at any given event, same ranges to be shot, and there's nothing that says that peers in the same class group and distance group can't be paired together. For instance, a K50 and KPro can be in the same shooting group, a U50 and Upro in the same group etc.

I think it would work, and it think it would do well for shooters and for the ASA. Shooters like options, not silos....just my 2 cents.


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## 3dbowmaster (Sep 16, 2005)

Sometimes you need to invest the $$$ to improve on the quality and quantity of the product....hense giving room for growth.....I'm just thinking out load....but would another range benefit at all?


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## tagmaster10 (Jan 26, 2011)

This subject is being beat to death. I was also one who was against known at first. I shot 3D in the 90s when everything was unknown and there were no 12s, but center Xs. I stopped shooting for over 10 years except to hunt. When I returned to the sport in 2010, there was now a lot of classes. I started with hunter and stayed there until this year. My strong point has always been judging yardage. I moved to open C to get used to the open set up and I have learned one thing about myself because of the fact that it is all known. I have to work on my shot. For that reason, I agree with the fact that the novice classes are known classes. The first thing that every new archer should work on is his/her shot. Judging well comes from practice as well. However, you can practice that while shooting known. I judge every target before I range it. When I am shooting a local club shoot, I will judge/shoot/range. This is the best way for me to practice. When shooting qualifiers, I judge/range/shoot and this has forced me to start working on my shot. I believe this will prepare me to move into higher classes, whether that be known or unknown.


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## bhtr3d (Feb 13, 2004)

I dont mean to educate you a little ......but.....There has always been AS.A. 12 rings......since and be for asa started in 1993.... the Budweiser shootout that was held in Valdosta, Ga.is where the 12 ring all got started. ...there wasn't any center x.......before the 12.....or the ibo 11..... there was just 10. ...8......5.....or x (for a miss)


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## jaydub (May 16, 2008)

I remember the budweiser shootout in valdosta!


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## TURBOTECH (Oct 23, 2005)

573mms said:


> I believe open c and open b should be all unkown. Were is they entry level class for guys that's strongest weapon is judging yardage? All the classes with known yardage is getting to be a joke.


+1.


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## bhtr3d (Feb 13, 2004)

jaydub said:


> I remember the budweiser shootout in valdosta!


I remember your Hoyt super slam supreme blowing up there on the practice bags and you were in shock for 10mins just holding g your riser....as everything else as at the bag....


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## gaberichter (Aug 31, 2008)

I happen to like it just the way it is. If it didn't work there wouldn't be 16x shooters in the class.


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## jimb (Feb 17, 2003)

they are setting attendance records, with all of the known yardage stuff.


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## J Whittington (Nov 13, 2009)

combine 45-50 known 5 more yards is not that big of deal,,,when you know how far the target is




wpk said:


> I think it should be
> c all unknown 40 yards
> b all unknown 45 yards
> A all unknown 50 yards
> ...


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## 537 (Jul 1, 2003)

josechno said:


> so get rid of Open C make it Known 40 (that's what it is) then Known 45, Known 50,
> Open B become all UNKNOWN 40 yrds max, then Open A 45 yards max, then Semi, OPen Pro


This is the best suggestion I have heard


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## Kstigall (Feb 24, 2004)

J Whittington said:


> combine 45-50 known 5 more yards is not that big of deal,,,when you know how far the target is


That would be very counter productive UNLESS you want to choke out Known distance 3D. I know choking off K45 and K50 is what some unknown distance 3D'ers would like to see. It is not about the distance. It is about having multiple levels of competitive play not unlike Open B leads to Open A which leads to Semi-Pro and finally plateaus at Open Pro.

Basically it would be like combining rolling Open B into Semi-Pro. It would be very unattractive to many Open B archers and the archers coming into 3D in the future, i.e. it would hinder growth.

You can't "grow" archery or a particular archery class by forcing folks to compete at a level over their heads or by forcing them to pay higher entry fees. Jacked up entry fees and the reduction of levels of competition would hinder growth and I can not think of how that would benefit the ASA.


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## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

I agree with kstigall here and I didn't get it when I started three years ago and I jumped right into open b my first year and I wish I had shot open c first because I was good enough to get two 7th places in open b within 4 shoots and I jumped to open a before the season was over and shot the last three shoots and got another 7th in open a. In all reality if I had shot open c I could have possibly been a asa champion my first year and then got bumped to open b and then I should have stayed there for the entire season and tried to win out instead of just jumping to open a like I did.

We did a better job with Jason Hickey my shooting buddy who has came on strong in the last year, we had him shoot his first asa in open c and he won metropolis and then this year he won regions in open b at oklahoma and he has placed good in open b at the one he attended. He is progressing up the ladder just like you are supposed to and if he can attend enough asa's this year hopefully he can win out. 

I have screwed around and got my top ten in open a and I have won 400 bucks so I am just a few hundred more dollars from winning out of open a which is a big goal of mine. I didn't understand these goals when I started even though I should have because I had some guys telling me but I didn't listen, but now I am where I belong in open a and can't wait to get to texas and shoot a solid score.


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