# Are we rewarding the best shooter? Time for a good discussion!



## cenochs (May 2, 2007)

I figured it was time for another discussion this forum seems to be dead! Do we as 3D Archers reward the best shooter? Me and some others had this discussion. If Archer A shoots a 40 target course clean all 10's total score 400..and Archer B shoots 2-5's - 2-8's and 2-14's and 4-12's and shoots 402 whom was the better shot? Archer B will be rewarded with the win according to how the scoring is set up now but was he really the better archer? We had this discussion just thought it would be a good topic for AT!


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## nickel shooter5 (Dec 26, 2009)

Just like any sport, it dont matter how you get there, final score is rewarded. (Baseballs losing picher can throw a one hitter and winning picher throws a 8 hitter)


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## Hoosier bowman (Jan 10, 2010)

This should be a good one......


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## cenochs (May 2, 2007)

nickel shooter5 said:


> Just like any sport, it dont matter how you get there, final score is rewarded. (Baseballs losing picher can throw a one hitter and winning picher throws a 8 hitter)


I like it good example!!!


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## 12sonly (Jan 6, 2007)

is 14 ethical shot?


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## shaffer88 (Dec 3, 2007)

Sound like he was consistently better since twelves and fourteens are better. Score wins. . Just ask greenbay packers

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## 12sonly (Jan 6, 2007)

the man that shot all the 10s , i feel shot best.


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## gaberichter (Aug 31, 2008)

It's a game. For score. Luck wins sometimes. Consistency wins more.


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## Kaptain (Jun 2, 2011)

Archer B is the better shooter.


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## candymaker13 (Apr 19, 2011)

In the eyes of archery community the final score is posted and the man with the higher score is the better archer on that day, the best man does not always win. When we look at tournament scores we don't get to look at the scorecard just the podium. And that man holding the big check or the big trophy is the better archer on that day .


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## ABTABB (Apr 4, 2007)

This discussion comes up around here pretty often... My Wife finished tied for 1st at +22up in Women's K-40 in Metropolis, but finished 2nd with one less bonus ring... The object of the game is to post the highest score, and hit as many bonus rings as possible IMO, so breaking ties with them makes sense to Me...


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## cenochs (May 2, 2007)

Do you think that if the ASA removes the 14 ring next year there will be certain archers that will be affected? I think scores will be closer. If someone shoots 8 14's now they are 32 up if they shot 8 12's then they would only be up 16 and more Archers will be in the Mix? I like the opinions so far!


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## schmel_me (Dec 17, 2003)

3d is target shooting who cares if a 14 is an ethical shot its a scoring point to aim at on a target if it was practice for bowhunting an are the size of a football would be a kill on a deer target. Like said above the guy that scores higher is the better shooter. Doesnt matter how consistent he/her is they were able to shoot to score more points period.


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## tmorelli (Jul 31, 2005)

Taking risk and succeeding at it is rewarded in ASA.....just like life and business. Thats why it is more fun and mentally challenging than just shooting centers. Winning at Asa requires precision shooting and a different kind of brain power than shooting centers.

In my opinion, losing the 14 is a bad move.



typed slowly and with many errors on this touchscreen.......


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## T Miller73 (Jul 22, 2008)

I feel that a 10 should be the highest score for a target and 12 rings should be counted as x's . So two archers shooting a tie score can be placed using x count to break ties . Once points are dropped they should not be able to be made back up by a lucky shot. That would (always) reward the best and most consistent archer at the same time.


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## brdmt72 (Mar 13, 2008)

In asa you could miss a 12 by a 1/4" and be an 8 low, or miss a 12 by 3" and be a 10 high. So who is actually the better shot the on who missed by 1/4" or the one who missed by 3"?


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## tmorelli (Jul 31, 2005)

T Miller73 said:


> I feel that a 10 should be the highest score for a target and 12 rings should be counted as x's . So two archers shooting a tie score can be placed using x count to break ties . Once points are dropped they should not be able to be made back up by a lucky shot. That would (always) reward the best and most consistent archer at the same time.


Yawn. What you are talking about it dots where there is only downward momentum. That's wildly succesful in its various forms in the US so let's model 3d after it :thumbs_do

Every target on a 3d course represents an opportunity. You never "get points back". You already missed your opportunity. The man that maximizes on the most opportunities wins. Period.

Risk-Reward. Period. Taking smart risks....making good decisions......and being a tough competitor and a competent shooter...... that's how you get rewarded.

Don't take the fun or interesting elements out of 3d........ or just go shoot IBO where the safest shot is the highest scoring.....or field/fita/indoor/etc......where center scores highest and there is no upward momentum. Yawn again.


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## tmorelli (Jul 31, 2005)

brdmt72 said:


> In asa you could miss a 12 by a 1/4" and be an 8 low, or miss a 12 by 3" and be a 10 high. So who is actually the better shot the on who missed by 1/4" or the one who missed by 3"?


The one who hits the 12.....or is smart enough and competent enough at playing the game to make sure his misses aren't low ones.

I guess we should paste 5-spot cut outs on our 3d targets......... or just go shoot dots.


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## bobbyqualls7 (Jul 1, 2010)

yall are right 3d is hard to decide who is a better shooter when it comes to a cituation like this. just tell the two guys shooting to shoot a 900 round instead of a 3d. this would make it much eaiser to decide. lol


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## kingalw (Aug 30, 2009)

tmorelli said:


> taking risk and succeeding at it is rewarded in asa.....just like life and business. Thats why it is more fun and mentally challenging than just shooting centers. Winning at asa requires precision shooting and a different kind of brain power than shooting centers.
> 
> In my opinion, losing the 14 is a bad move.
> 
> ...


x2.


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## C.Callison (Jun 20, 2006)

The shooter with the highest score is the best shooter for that day. It dosen't matter how many points they missed. It's the ones they hit. I like the way the 14 changes the game. I say if you can see it shoot it.


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## 3Dblackncamo (Jul 22, 2009)

just like racing sometimes the best car dont win because they didnt cross the finish line 1st, 3D is about who shot the highest score!


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## Garceau (Sep 3, 2010)

I always felt tie breakers in 3d should be won by those with the least amount of 8s/ 5s

Just a consistency thing.

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## Jay-J (Apr 20, 2005)

tmorelli said:


> Yawn. What you are talking about it dots where there is only downward momentum. That's wildly succesful in its various forms in the US so let's model 3d after it :thumbs_do
> 
> Every target on a 3d course represents an opportunity. You never "get points back". You already missed your opportunity. The man that maximizes on the most opportunities wins. Period.
> 
> ...


I agree...


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## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

Rules are pretty clear. High score wins.

There risk envolved in 3D. Makes some weak in the knees the thought of getting a five score shooting at lower 12 or 14.

Seems the cream raises to the top at 3d events.
DB


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## carlosii (Feb 25, 2007)

cenochs said:


> I figured it was time for another discussion this forum seems to be dead! Do we as 3D Archers reward the best shooter? Me and some others had this discussion. If Archer A shoots a 40 target course clean all 10's total score 400..and Archer B shoots 2-5's - 2-8's and 2-14's and 4-12's and shoots 402 whom was the better shot? Archer B will be rewarded with the win according to how the scoring is set up now but was he really the better archer? We had this discussion just thought it would be a good topic for AT!


archer b is the better archer IF he was aiming at the 12 and 14 on those shots. if not, then he's just like me, lucky as all get out.


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## Bucks (Jul 27, 2005)

a better question would be, "if the A guy is the better shooter, why did he play it safe with all 10's and not go for any 12's or 14's?" In reality, there could be a number of reasons from personality to risk adversity. everyone has their reasons, but the game is high score wins.


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## sagecreek (Jul 15, 2003)

The guy with the highest score is the better shooter, unless he hit the 14 by accident. lain:


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## WhitBri (Jan 30, 2007)

3d is a game. You know the rules going in. What ring scores what and what breaks ties. The guy with the most points wins, the win doesn't make him the "best shooter" just says he won. Just like I hear all the time from the hunters around here, "you'd be a better shooter if you stopped using those logs for arrows and shoot standard arrows, those logs are cheating arrows". Its a game played by rules that determine a winner.
Is the guys that wins the Iowa Pro am where they go tie break and start counting I/O baby vegas x's really a better shot, or just lucky, no one shoots I/O baby x's consistently with 27s, so luck played some factor. 
I also don't think any of the "best shooters" really care about that title. They are just being the best they can be at the game in front of them.


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## LongTime (Feb 17, 2005)

My idea no 14 ring 11 for center and the 12 ring. That way I think the most accurate shooter wins.


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

cenochs said:


> I figured it was time for another discussion this forum seems to be dead! Do we as 3D Archers reward the best shooter? Me and some others had this discussion. If Archer A shoots a 40 target course clean all 10's total score 400..and Archer B shoots 2-5's - 2-8's and 2-14's and 4-12's and shoots 402 whom was the better shot? Archer B will be rewarded with the win according to how the scoring is set up now but was he really the better archer? We had this discussion just thought it would be a good topic for AT!


Like another noted, your question should have been worded differently or based on rules of. Our club doesn't count 12s or 14s. 0,5,8,10 and that's it. So a perfect ten 400 would given high score.
I haven't compared ASA and IBO scores as for Xs counted. Has anyone? To me 12 IBO Xs wouldn't be as good accuracy wise to 12 ASA Xs, whether low, high or the 14 counted as a X. As such, aiming for the center of a 10 and getting the X would be "common" and going for and getting a offset X would be "superior." Overly said, but.....

And if "calling" your shot was given the extra credit? It does rule out luck.....


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## tagmaster10 (Jan 26, 2011)

For those of you who do not like the way 3d is scored, you should go shoot something else. The ASA scoring proccess is good just the way it is. It is challenging and gives a shooter who has a slow start a chance to come back. This makes it a more exciting game.


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## Stillfingers (May 6, 2008)

In IBO, keep the 11's, because everyone shoots for the center.

In ASA, keep the 12's and 14's, but call the 14 before you shoot. If you don't call the 14, and then hit it, you only score an 8. If you call the 14 and miss, score where the arrow hits, unless it hit's a 12, (because you called the 14), it only counts as a 10.

Highest score wins!

For tie breakers in both organizations, use the least amount of 8's and/or 5's, and if need be, go back to the shoot-off, (Pressure always helps...).

Wouldn't this award accuracy more than luck?

Just another twist...

~SF~


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## MentalMisfit (Nov 15, 2011)

Stillfingers said:


> In IBO, keep the 11's, because everyone shoots for the center.
> 
> In ASA, keep the 12's and 14's, but call the 14 before you shoot. If you don't call the 14, and then hit it, you only score an 8. If you call the 14 and miss, score where the arrow hits, unless it hit's a 12, (because you called the 14), it only counts as a 10.
> 
> ...


I dont think you should have to call your shot its kind of stupid sometimes people get lucky just have to deal with it. Why not make everyone shoot the same arrow and same sights and same releases while your at it. It's very unlikely that anyone misses going for the center and lands in a 14. And if they do good for them they got lucky on that one. And as far as 8's and 5's go anyone thats going for the 14 is going to have more of those why do you people hate on risk takers just because you don't have the sack to do it yourself....


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## cenochs (May 2, 2007)

Good discussion let me ask you this ? What do you think when the ASA allows both upper and lower 12's to be scored on some ranges? Does this really reflect true scores or just lucky shooting?


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## tmorelli (Jul 31, 2005)

Let me ask you this.

Do you really think that the men, women and kids standing on the podiums were just lucky? How often do you think they accidentally hit a 12 or a 14?

Are there some wild accidental hits? Sure but who is likely to accidentally hit 14's shooting at 10's or 12's.....or a 12 when shooting for a 14? NOT the people in contention to win. Putting yourself in a position to "accidentally" hit 12's while safely taking 10's is part of the strategy and skill required to win.

Why change the rules over the difference between 33rd place and 45th place or 65th vs 90th? Thats what you are dealing with here. Maybe your change affects who gets and $18 check and who doesn't on some rare occasions but I'm going to tell you that the podiums will be filled with the same faces. Talent/skill/discipline/good decisions........they win no matter what the scoring system or symetry of the scoring rings.

Does anyone ever make a crappy shot that stays in the X or 10 ring indoors? What about on a field course? Hell yes they do. Every time a crappy shooter shoots a 5 or an X on a field course, should it not count because it was obviously luck that put it there based on the percentages? Why not, just because its in the center and is an agreed upon aiming point? 

Luck is a part of life and every game played. The talented/gifted individuals play the games such that their in a position to benefit from it when it happens.


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## John-in-VA (Mar 27, 2003)

As far as upper and lower 12 to count there are 6 shooters on a stake .The 12 ring fill up or gets blocked it only fair that the last couple shooter still have a chance.
As far as the 14 goes I dont play that game .It will cost most shooter in the long run .I'm all for 12's that's the only way you can make a bad shoot and still have a chance .
Like already said if you dont like the way ASA is run go and do something you do like .If you think IBO is better than why did they change it from X count to 11.


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

tagmaster10 said:


> For those of you who do not like the way 3d is scored, you should go shoot something else. The ASA scoring proccess is good just the way it is. It is challenging and gives a shooter who has a slow start a chance to come back. This makes it a more exciting game.





John-in-VA said:


> Like already said if you dont like the way ASA is run go and do something you do like .If you think IBO is better than why did they change it from X count to 11.


I think is so much BS. No one was cutting down ASA scoring. What was given was differing scoring methods - No cheap shots that I could see.

I've shot just about all there is, club through ASA, IBO, and NFAA scoring. When it was all said and done the person with the most points won, skill, luck or whatever.


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## schmel_me (Dec 17, 2003)

I dont think the thead was to argue which organizations scoring is better or worse. 

But since we are on the subject i think asa scoring is great. I say keep the 14's i think they should be used in all the open classes. but i also understand that the 14 not being in the insert takes its toll on the targets and they do what they have to do.


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## Bubba Dean (Jun 2, 2005)

Shooter B is the best shooter. Having the ability to hit 12's & 14's shows this. If they are aiming at the 12 or 14 that easily explains the 5 & 8. A shooter of this ability could aim center 10 and shoot even. However most of the time even gets you a thanks for coming.


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## Kaptain (Jun 2, 2011)

When it comes to a lucky shot - luck is where preparation meets opportunity.


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## archeryshooter3 (Apr 12, 2011)

I think we all forget that this is a precision sport. NO ONE has yet to shoot a perfect score since 12's and 14's are in play. A class with 14's in play a perfect score is 560 and 480 without 14's in play. So by shooting center 10's we are in essence dropping 4 points every time we shoot. We don't get points back, we only drop them. So who is the better shooter? Its the one willing to risk points to get them all. The guy on top of the podium with the most points is the best shooter that day.


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## jimb (Feb 17, 2003)

I don't shoot at the 14's because I can't hit them and I also think that it should be only lower 12's and if it has arrows in it that is part of the game and the luck of the shooting order. You will be up first of second in a couple of targets.


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## Stillfingers (May 6, 2008)

cenochs said:


> I figured it was time for another discussion this forum seems to be dead! Do we as 3D Archers reward the best shooter? Me and some others had this discussion. If Archer A shoots a 40 target course clean all 10's total score 400..and Archer B shoots 2-5's - 2-8's and 2-14's and 4-12's and shoots 402 whom was the better shot? Archer B will be rewarded with the win according to how the scoring is set up now but was he really the better archer? We had this discussion just thought it would be a good topic for AT!


Good discussion subject, I think?



tagmaster10 said:


> For those of you who do not like the way 3d is scored, you should go shoot something else. The ASA scoring proccess is good just the way it is. It is challenging and gives a shooter who has a slow start a chance to come back. This makes it a more exciting game.





John-in-VA said:


> Like already said if you dont like the way ASA is run go and do something you do like .If you think IBO is better than why did they change it from X count to 11.


*tagmaster10* and *John-in-VA*, I shoot them both and take what I get.



MentalMisfit said:


> I dont think you should have to call your shot its kind of stupid sometimes people get lucky just have to deal with it. Why not make everyone shoot the same arrow and same sights and same releases while your at it. It's very unlikely that anyone misses going for the center and lands in a 14. And if they do good for them they got lucky on that one. And as far as 8's and 5's go anyone thats going for the 14 is going to have more of those why do you people hate on risk takers just because you don't have the sack to do it yourself....


Ouch! I don’t hate on risk takers, I’ve been known to shoot at the 14 myself, but if you do take the risk and miss, isn’t that part of the risk? My last line said it best, “Just another twist…”.



SonnyThomas said:


> I think is so much BS. No one was cutting down ASA scoring. What was given was differing scoring methods - No cheap shots that I could see.
> 
> I've shot just about all there is, club through ASA, IBO, and NFAA scoring. When it was all said and done the person with the most points won, skill, luck or whatever.


Thanks Sonny, I was just taking part in the conversation, not bashing any clubs or Organizations. As you said, “the person with the most points wins, skill, luck or whatever”.


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## hfranz (Dec 1, 2009)

3D needs to stay the same. Its fun because of the coarse management and mental game that goes into winning. One thing that I think would be cool, is to make tie breakers (1st and 2nd) go to a shoot out. Just like the pro class, if its k-45 then its known yardage. I think it would be cool to do the top five spots on sunday. Put shooters in front of a crowd for a 5 target shoot out. 
I understand that this would take time but just think that kinda setting is really fun and really gets the nerve's going, then you really get to see who the best shooter is for that day. Its all about risk and reward, who can make the shot when it counts!!


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## Justin82 (Mar 12, 2009)

highest score is the better archer for that day... thats why we have the 12s and 14s, take the risk and miss? so be it


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## Alpha Burnt (Sep 12, 2005)

12s and 14s should be called before the shot by shooter. Flirting with a 5 or an 8 and stroking a 14 by accident should not be rewarded.


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## tmorelli (Jul 31, 2005)

Alpha Burnt said:


> Flirting with a 5 or an 8 and stroking a 14 by accident should not be rewarded.


How often does that happen? How often does it happen to shooters that are in contention? 

Do we really care if shooters that aren't competitive accidentally hit a bonus ring?


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## tagmaster10 (Jan 26, 2011)

hfranz said:


> 3D needs to stay the same. Its fun because of the coarse management and mental game that goes into winning. One thing that I think would be cool, is to make tie breakers (1st and 2nd) go to a shoot out. Just like the pro class, if its k-45 then its known yardage. I think it would be cool to do the top five spots on sunday. Put shooters in front of a crowd for a 5 target shoot out.
> I understand that this would take time but just think that kinda setting is really fun and really gets the nerve's going, then you really get to see who the best shooter is for that day. Its all about risk and reward, who can make the shot when it counts!!


I'm with you on this Heath. A shoot out for top 2 in each class would be alot of fun and get the crowd pumped up. The best part of Paris is the Red River Shoot Out on Friday where the top shooters from each class from OK, TX and AR shoot off for bragging rights.


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## tagmaster10 (Jan 26, 2011)

tmorelli said:


> How often does that happen? How often does it happen to shooters that are in contention?
> 
> Do we really care if shooters that aren't competitive accidentally hit a bonus ring?


You know that whenever I am in contention, it's an accident.


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## hfranz (Dec 1, 2009)

luck is where preparation meets opportunity! At least thats what my daddy said!!:wink:


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## Kstigall (Feb 24, 2004)

cenochs said:


> Good discussion let me ask you this ? What do you think when the ASA allows both upper and lower 12's to be scored on some ranges? Does this really reflect true scores or just lucky shooting?


The better the archer the less "luck" has to do with his score.

When both 12's are scored _without _being called then those folks that shoot for the center of the 10 will most likely end up with a higher score. Statistically they'll "accidentally" hit twice as many 12's when you double the size of the area inside the 10 ring that is scored as a 12.

For the guys competing at the top of a given class making both 12's count without being called will have less of an impact on their scores. They are better shots than the guy that just aims at the center of the 10 therefor they will not pick up as many "stray" 12's due to their arrows grouping close to where they aim and they aim more at the 12 than center 10. 

If you "call" which 12 is to be scored then the best archers will pick up some points but it really depends on the difficulty of the course and the quality shooting of the group. On a short easy course a group of top archers will really benefit from shooting at either 12. In _most _situations calling the 12 offers no scoring advantage to the guy that is just trying to keep his arrows in the 10 ring.


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