# What separates Male/Female in the sport of Archery?



## Humdinger

Ok so this has come up a few times im sure as it seems to be a topic pondered around our range. With female and male archers scores so close, is there a reason to have Female class and Male class? We were trying to debate whether or not there was any clear advantage in the Male category other than Physical strength and size. Archery along with the physical side is a sport of deep concentration, ability to stay still, and repeat a shot sequence.

My question is... What Separates the Male Archer from the Female Archer? It seems to me it is pretty equal in the sport of archery...

Cant wait to hear some of the responses!!


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## chrstphr

i have always felt the FITA distances should be the same for both men and women. I dont see what the difference is. They certainly shoot the same distance in the world cup and Olympic tourneys. And sometimes the womens recurve score is higher than the mens compound score. 


Chris


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## jmvargas

...if the 90M distance is totally eliminated from future competition it would make a stronger case to make archery an OPEN competition much like in equestrian wherein there is no distinction between male and female competitors..

in fact this is already happening in the Olympics wherein both sexes shoot at 70M only..

if I were a woman however--(I'm NOT)--i would still want the present system to be maintained mainly because all other things being equal the stronger archer will still have an advantage--and for many other sports for that matter--specially on windy days...


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## chrstphr

yes, 

but most of the top archers shoot in the 40 pound range for outdoor FITA. The Korean men and women shoot approx 42-44 lbs. Most of the olympic recurve men in the US and in Europe are 46-48lbs. The women are rarely lower than 38. 

Not much difference there. Katuna Lorig shoots 49lbs. Only a very few shoot 50 or more lbs, usually to not so consistant scores. 

Most of the more intermediate archers shoot in the 30 pound range, but thats men and women. So 90 is still as much a stretch as anything. 

and personally for windy days, in my opinion, a short heavy arrow with short power stroke is better than the long heavy arrow with long power stroke. So the women equalize on that one too.

Chris


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## Marshall Law

If the distances are closer then thats a distinct advantage.


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## Humdinger

So one difference you pointed out is Physical Strength. This is one spot i can't get myself to completely agree with... Hmm.. I see the fact that the Male archer would be able to pull more weight and get a flatter trajectory. However shooting with a sight, if we are going to talk about Olympic archery. I would think it wouldn't matter to much... Now i could be completely wrong. So please enlighten me if I am.

Most Female Oly archers i know shoot around 36-40 lbs limbs which is right on par with a big number of Male.

I think we need to call Mythbusters!


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## chrstphr

if the distances are closer who is it an advantage to? the men? recurve men? the women? 

the recurve men scores at world cups and olympics are not that different from the womens, most shoot between a 108 and a 112. In fact sometimes the womens are higher than the mens.


The only down side i see is if it became open and no gender, then we would lose medals. We now have medals for mens and medlas for womens. I woudl not want to see any medal catagories removed. But i fail to see what that has to do with the distances each shoots. 

Chris


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## Humdinger

one thing i should point out is Im a Male. Im 5'7" and 135 lbs.. So as much as i hate to say it..I am the size of a Woman! LOL

This is why i always wondered about this..


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## chrstphr

Park Sung Hyun is 5'6 and 158lbs ish. I am 6' and 165 lbs. I would stand no change competing against her at any distance. 

My height and weight have no bearing on the outcome of the match. Lol, im not even sure i could take her in wrestling. 


Chris


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## limbwalker

> What Separates the Male Archer from the Female Archer?


At most events, about 4 hours, and not much else... 

I've coached quite a few students and almost without exception, the ladies have better technique.

John


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## >--gt-->

While I happen to know several women who can (and do) handily outshoot men, especially in mixed team competitions (Kaori Kawanaka shot the highest scores of anyone in the Bangkok mixed team final yesterday and I have seen Jennifer (nee Nichols) Harvey do the same numerous times), I don't know anyone who would support "open" competition who has either thought the matter through or is competent to consider such things.

It is a ridiculous and destructive idea.


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## Stash

I completely agree with >--gt-->

While there have been occasions where the very top women's scores match and exceed the men's, the depth of the field is considerably different. Look at the 10th place scores in each, and the cut line for eliminations at 32nd, 64th or wherever it is for any specific event. Both indoors or outdoors. Both compound or recurve. It's obvious that there is a considerable difference in scoring between men and women overall. 

If you group men and women together, you will have a huge majority of male shooters, and women will quickly start to drop out of competition.


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## limbwalker

Agreed. 

Best thing to come along in some time is the mixed team event that allows the men and women to play on the same field and same format. I believe that's as far as we need to go. I tire of Jenny beating me already. 

John


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## lksseven

Strength - it seems to me that the archer's physical strength to resist being moved (and having his bow arm moved) by the wind is a definite benefit to men (in general). 

As to the more general thrust of the question, I agree with John and <gt>.


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## Warbow

>--gt--> said:


> It is a ridiculous and destructive idea.


Why?

There was a thread about this that centered on indoor where neither distance nor wind resistance are a factor. So, why different gender divisions indoors? Some folks said that people who shoot higher poundage bows (i.e. men) had an advantage because higher poundage bows are more forgiving on release, since the string will be deflected less by variability in technique than the string of a lighter poundage bow. 

Sounds like *instead of having gender categories* which, under the "we should separate the big from the weak to make competition fair" theory unfairly make smaller men compete against bigger men and smaller women compete against bigger women, that *we should have draw weight categories,* say a 30-4.99, 35-3.99, 40-44.99, etc., with draw weight measured at the fingers at their competition clicker distance.

Wouldn't that be more fair to **everyone**? (Especially more fair to Humdinger at any shoot where giants like John show up :wink: (John also gets a power stroke advantage with his long draw length. More time under acceleration means more velocity than a shorter draw length with the same draw weight on the fingers. So maybe a draw length modifier, or KE classes rather than draw weight? :dontknow: Complicated, possibly unworkable, but definitely more fair than the current system. )


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## Viper1

humdinger -

The actual difference would be the gonads (I'm actually not joking about that, if you think about it). Other than that, while there might be a strength advantage for males over the longer distances, I think with today's equipment, it much, much less than in decades past. The real reason(s) may just be tradition or the desire to have everybody win something.

In our local leagues, we don't separate shooters based on age or gender. The classifications are based purely on scores. Everybody seems happy. 

Viper1 out.


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## Seattlepop

Warbow said:


> Why?
> 
> There was a thread about this that centered on indoor where neither distance nor wind resistance are a factor. So, why different gender divisions indoors? Some folks said that people who shoot higher poundage bows (i.e. men) had an advantage because higher poundage bows are more forgiving on release, since the string will be deflected less by variability in technique than the string of a lighter poundage bow.
> 
> Sounds like *instead of having gender categories* which, under the "we should separate the big from the weak to make competition fair" theory unfairly make smaller men compete against bigger men and smaller women compete against bigger women, that *we should have draw weight categories,* say a 30-4.99, 35-3.99, 40-44.99, etc., with draw weight measured at the fingers at their competition clicker distance.
> 
> Wouldn't that be more fair to **everyone**? (Especially more fair to Humdinger at any shoot where giants like John show up :wink: (John also gets a power stroke advantage with his long draw length. More time under acceleration means more velocity than a shorter draw length with the same draw weight on the fingers. So maybe a draw length modifier, or KE classes rather than draw weight? :dontknow: Complicated, possibly unworkable, but definitely more fair than the current system. )


Or...have it classed like combat sports by body weight. It would make weigh-in less complicated.


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## Dado

Park Sung Hyun is more an exception to the rule, or the top Compound ladies.
In reality we men get more speed with our maxed out draw weight and draw length. If you had to set up your bow so it can not exceed, say, 285 FPS *actual speed* not IBO, then we would be pretty much equal.


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## lksseven

Seattlepop said:


> Or...have it classed like combat sports by body weight. It would make weigh-in less complicated.


Good luck selling that to the female contingent ... "Ok, we're all gathered around - now just step up here on the scale, Jane/or Pam/or Betty."


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## LittleJP

What about draw weight/draw length categories?


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## >--gt-->

One reason Archery was recently adopted as a Core Olympic Sport by the IOC - WITH NO DISCUSSION- is our outstanding record of opportunity for and participation by women. The main reason wrestling is out of the Games is the convoluted, confusing and boneheaded changes to classifications and qualifications adopted in recent history in that sport- and a stubborn refusal to create opportunities for women. Exactly the sort of idiocy being promoted by some here.

No thanks.


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## Humdinger

Pretty good points.. I can see this topic is a bit of a touchy one for some. I understand why there are seperate classes for male and female. I just wanted to know if there was a distinct difference between the two as far as performance. I think I got the answer I was looking for "none". With that said I'm not looking to change they game, just curious! 

Some of your comments had me rolling!! Thanks for all the input..


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## carlosii

women have a lower center of gravity giving them better foundational balance and therefore a more stable platform from which to build.


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## Serious Fun

I hope we see mixed teams in the Olympics and Paralympics! Crossing my fingers for Rio 2016.


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## Warbow

>--gt--> said:


> Exactly the sort of idiocy being promoted by some here.


You are pretty free with the word "idiocy". I see your use of it as a poisoning the well rather than discussing the topic on the merits. Nobody here, as far as I can tell, is seeking to exclude or disadvantage women.

I remember watching tv and seeing "Ladies Pool" and I thought, that is rediculous. If anything is a skill sport, it is pool. Why on earth should there be ladies pool? Should we have ladies darts? And ladies chess? 

Archery is a skill sport where strength can confer some advantage. Faster arrows spend less time in the air and are less subject to wind. Heavier bows are more forgiving of inconsistent release. If we control for those factors with an arrow speed or weight on the fingers class, why should men and women shoot separately? And, no, I don't care about the Olympics answer, I want to know from the question of competing against one another, sans politics.


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## Stash

You can debate all you want "sans politics", but it will always be moot, because there is nothing in the real world that functions "sans politics".

That being said, however, there is no real way to level the playing field equipment-wise between men and women in archery. Even if you limit speed or weight on fingers, *on average*, men will have a distinct advantage. Limit the weight to 30#? A man who is capable of holding 45# will have a considerable endurance advantage over a woman who is capable of holding only 35#.

You need to stop looking at only the very top few women's scores and look at the whole field to see the lack of equality in performance. Case in point - recurve divisions at Vegas this year. If you combine the men and women into one championship flight the top woman would have placed 2nd - great. But the 3rd place woman would have been 16th, 10th place woman 36th.

There were only 2 women in the top 20 in the flights where the men and women are combined.

There is a difference. Try to determine the real cause and effect of this enormous disparity before concluding there _*shouldn't*_ be any difference.


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## ppayne

Humdinger said:


> So one difference you pointed out is Physical Strength. This is one spot i can't get myself to completely agree with... Hmm.. I see the fact that the Male archer would be able to pull more weight and get a flatter trajectory. However shooting with a sight, if we are going to talk about Olympic archery. I would think it wouldn't matter to much... Now i could be completely wrong. So please enlighten me if I am.
> 
> Most Female Oly archers i know shoot around 36-40 lbs limbs which is right on par with a big number of Male.
> 
> I think we need to call Mythbusters!


No need to call Mythbusters, Hon, I'll dispell one for you right here and there...Sure our limbs are in the 36-40 lbs range BUT our draw lengths are very often shorter than the average 28 inches standard (I recall Coach Kim Hyung Tak stating in his seminar that Miss Park Sung Hyun's own draw length was 26 inches...as the discussion was precisely about the difference between men and women draw lengths...) Soooo, a pair of 40 pounder gives me a range of 36 to 38 lbs and no heavier. Granted I am a t-rex even for a female but still most of the women archers I shoot with use limbs marked heavier than what they end up holding on their fingers...Just saying 
Pascale


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## HikerDave

Stash said:


> You can debate all you want "sans politics", but it will always be moot, because there is nothing in the real world that functions "sans politics".
> 
> That being said, however, there is no real way to level the playing field equipment-wise between men and women in archery. Even if you limit speed or weight on fingers, *on average*, men will have a distinct advantage. Limit the weight to 30#? A man who is capable of holding 45# will have a considerable endurance advantage over a woman who is capable of holding only 35#.
> 
> You need to stop looking at only the very top few women's scores and look at the whole field to see the lack of equality in performance. Case in point - recurve divisions at Vegas this year. If you combine the men and women into one championship flight the top woman would have placed 2nd - great. But the 3rd place woman would have been 16th, 10th place woman 36th.
> 
> There were only 2 women in the top 20 in the flights where the men and women are combined.
> 
> There is a difference. Try to determine the real cause and effect of this enormous disparity before concluding there _*shouldn't*_ be any difference.


My daughter's coach, an accomplished female archer, sometimes points out small physical differences between men and women. For instance, women often prefer a slightly more toes-out stance, and preferred shoulder positioning is different.

At the JOAD camp last fall, Mel Nichols gave some of his thoughts on coaching women. One big difference between men and women is that men are more likely to just to what they are told, but women want to know why and won't just blindly take orders from their coach.

Observing our large contingent of archers at Paseo Vista, I don't really see any differences, other than there seem to be a lot more young women than young men. Lately archery seems to becoming a sport more predominantly female. It will be interesting to make a similar score comparison ten years from now to see whether the scores of the top ten or twenty are more evenly distributed.


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## Alsoran2

In the book "Total Archery" Kisik Lee has a paragraph or two where he mentions synchronizing important competitions with one's menstrual cycle. So there is THAT difference...


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## chrstphr

Dado said:


> Park Sung Hyun is more an exception to the rule, or the top Compound ladies.
> In reality we men get more speed with our maxed out draw weight and draw length. If you had to set up your bow so it can not exceed, say, 285 FPS *actual speed* not IBO, then we would be pretty much equal.


My speed is around 206 fps. My top speed ever was 210 shooting 54lbs. For recurve men and women, almost all are in the 190s to 200s. 

Chris


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## cc46

Men and women should be separate in my opinion for state, provincial, national levels and above. 

While it's true many scores are similar for the reasons mentioned, I think it's a disservice to the sport to squash the classes at those levels. I think it's interesting to see mixed teams at high levels and that has merit to me. I'd watch.

At a club level, I think the other way, squash the classes and the ages and make all shoot against those of the same skill. It creates interest and rivialy. And who wants a medal for being 2 in a group of 2 in your class. I liken this to the 70's notion of club shoots with butt prizes. Shoot half the score and then rank the shooters regardless of age, sex or equipment to butt 1,2,3 based on the first half scores then shoot the second half of the arrows against the other 3 on your butt. Award a prize to top shooter on every butt. One prize to every 4 shooters right through to the last butt on the line, which usually has beginners.

But at the higher levels keep men and woman separate.


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## chrstphr

ppayne said:


> No need to call Mythbusters, Hon, I'll dispell one for you right here and there...Sure our limbs are in the 36-40 lbs range BUT our draw lengths are very often shorter than the average 28 inches standard (I recall Coach Kim Hyung Tak stating in his seminar that Miss Park Sung Hyun's own draw length was 26 inches...as the discussion was precisely about the difference between men and women draw lengths...) Soooo, a pair of 40 pounder gives me a range of 36 to 38 lbs and no heavier. Granted I am a t-rex even for a female but still most of the women archers I shoot with use limbs marked heavier than what they end up holding on their fingers...Just saying
> Pascale


But you can shoot higher poundage limbs at your short draw and still get the poundage you want. Just shoot 42 or 44lb limbs and you get 40 lbs. i am a male, and i also have a 26 inch draw. The 48 lb limbs i shoot, get me 48-50 lbs. Not all men have a long draw. I shoot Korean limbs which are weighted at 26 inches instead of 28. 

and i personally think that the shorter arrow , shorter time on the string is an advantage to the longer arrow, long power stroke that is on the string longer and can have more issues from the release though not everyone will agree with me on that. 

Chris


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## TexARC

There is an incredible number of amazing generalities landing out in the green in this thread. Wow.
Let me add a few. 
The notion(oops, I nearly said "fact") that women seek consensus does not prevent them from entertaining competitive attitudes.
Women are mentally stronger than men when operating in an informed way and far less likely to overbow themselves.
The majority of females who do shoot overbowed are those dictated to do so by stupid coaches, the majority of which are male.
Coaches who say they understand womens' motivations, most likely don't. 
Men are far more likely to presume a non-existent ability through unfounded confidence, and since archery fundamentally depends on confidence, able to shoot above their common abilities. Sometimes that actually makes a difference.
Every person, male or female, has unique combinations of characteristics that defy pigeonholing by the dilettante up here that thrives on persistent conflict and dissension. Contrary arsle.
The saying, "shoot like a girl" is actually an admirable goal many male archers would benefit from apprehending. 
On any given day, the "best" archer may win or lose, and that is gender independent. 
The brains of adolescents (male and female) have fundamental differences in function that are never resolved into homogeneity until oh, about 95 years of age... 
Vive la difference! 

The descriptive term, "perfectionist" is a gender-independent characteristic common to many archers. I would suspect that most females are recalcitrant about boasting...it's a girl thing. 
<GDRLH>
The mixed team event is perhaps the best enhancement to, the best opportunity for, stimulating appeal of and interest in the sport since the restoration of archery to the modern era olympics...and I for one cannot wait for it to be added to the current male and female events in the games. 
Every statement above can be negated by an individual performance. So there is little rationale to firmly staking a position one way or tother. Rather, remain open to the character of each person and accept their ways...or not.


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## ppayne

chrstphr said:


> But you can shoot higher poundage limbs at your short draw and still get the poundage you want. Just shoot 42 or 44lb limbs and you get 40 lbs. i am a male, and i also have a 26 inch draw. The 48 lb limbs i shoot, get me 48-50 lbs. Not all men have a long draw. I shoot Korean limbs which are weighted at 26 inches instead of 28.
> 
> and i personally think that the shorter arrow , shorter time on the string is an advantage to the longer arrow, long power stroke that is on the string longer and can have more issues from the release though not everyone will agree with me on that.
> 
> Chris



Of course, Chris, should I want to do so, I could easily acquire a 44 lbs set of limbs to hold 40 lbs on the fingers. That's easy to figure this one. However this wasn't the point I was making you see.. The argument I was putting forward is that it would be a mistake to assume ( as proposed early on this thread) that most women shoot the same amount as shown on their limbs. From what I have observed, a whole lot of ladies out there are holding in average two pounds less than marked on their limbs. So if they wish to, say, use a 38 lbs bow, many would need to acquire 40 or 42 lbs limbs ( depending on manufacturer, I have learned the hard way...) to achieve such poundage. An observer therefore would be mistaken to assume that a female archer fitting a pair of 40 or 42 limbs on her riser is in fact holding same poundage. Many of us are not ( from what I have seen anyway)


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## limbwalker

Great post Ron. 

You make a strong argument for a National Women's head coach. 

You are absolutely right that most coaches have NO IDEA how to communicate and relate to female archers. None at all.

John


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## chrstphr

ppayne said:


> Of course, Chris, should I want to do so, I could easily acquire a 44 lbs set of limbs to hold 40 lbs on the fingers. That's easy to figure this one. However this wasn't the point I was making you see.. The argument I was putting forward is that it would be a mistake to assume ( as proposed early on this thread) that most women shoot the same amount as shown on their limbs. From what I have observed, a whole lot of ladies out there are holding in average two pounds less than marked on their limbs. So if they wish to, say, use a 38 lbs bow, many would need to acquire 40 or 42 lbs limbs ( depending on manufacturer, I have learned the hard way...) to achieve such poundage. An observer therefore would be mistaken to assume that a female archer fitting a pair of 40 or 42 limbs on her riser is in fact holding same poundage. Many of us are not ( from what I have seen anyway)


Park Sung Hyun has a 26 inch draw, but she still shoot 44 lbs. Not 44 lb limbs necessarily but 44 lbs at clicker. When we talk about the poundage women are shooting, we are not talking about the limb weight. 


Chris


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## ppayne

Sorry Chris, but once again, the argument I was bringing forward was in response to a previous post from Humdinger stating that and I quote 

"...Most Female Oly archers i know shoot around 36-40 lbs limbs which is right on par with a big number of Male..." 

Please notice the RIGHT ON PAR statement here. Yes we are using the same 36-40 lbs limbs, no we are not right on par, we are in fact holding less weight so getting less speed. Unless of course HUmdinger was implying that just like most female archers, male archers using 36-40 lbs limbs are actually holding 33-34 lbs on their fingers, which I don't think is the case...Case closed


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## >--gt-->

Most common limb weight for males at the Games is 44 followed by 42 followed by 46. For females it's 38-40-42-36 in that order.

Men are holding above 47 and females below 42 generally speaking, so the premise of the remark that started this exchange is flawed in the first place. Not on par at all.


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## Humdinger

Yes I made a mistake putting "Limbs" in that statement. I was talking weight at the fingers. Sorry for the confusion. Most the people i see male and female are somewhere near the 40lbs at the fingers. Some more, some less in both Male and female. The point i was trying to make is there doesnt seem to be a huge gap between the two. However i understand both of your points.

Of coarse there are the exceptions where some Male archers are Shooting 50lbs at the fingers. But i'm sure there are some females out there doing the same.

Like i stated at the beginning its been a highly talked about subject that ive listened too time and time again amongst my peers. I just figured i would ask here as i know there are some people on here that have tons of Knowledge on this topic. I will never learn if i dont ask..


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## Jim C

Uh women often wear skirts in competition while guys don't (well one guy does but that's an exception):teeth:


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## TER

Jim C said:


> Uh women often wear skirts in competition while guys don't (well one guy does but that's an exception):teeth:


Hey now... Kilts are completely masculine. I was on the same target as the archer you are likely referring to when the NAA Outdoor Champs were in Reading PA, the year of the Mother of all Rainstorm Floods occurred. Right away on Day One another target mate said to Guy, "What's that bulge? Are you carrying concealed? Why would you carry a gun here of all places?" Guy jerked his head toward the rest of the archers and said, "Just in case one of these knuckleheads gets out of line." I still chuckle every time I think of that. Always be prepared for you never know what!


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## archeryal

Actually, we had two kilt wearers at the Indoor Nationals regional in Fiskdale (Sutubridge), Mass. Guy was one of them.


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## Jim C

TER said:


> Hey now... Kilts are completely masculine. I was on the same target as the archer you are likely referring to when the NAA Outdoor Champs were in Reading PA, the year of the Mother of all Rainstorm Floods occurred. Right away on Day One another target mate said to Guy, "What's that bulge? Are you carrying concealed? Why would you carry a gun here of all places?" Guy jerked his head toward the rest of the archers and said, "Just in case one of these knuckleheads gets out of line." I still chuckle every time I think of that. Always be prepared for you never know what!


yeah at the ata show he came up behind me and pretended to put me in a choke hold. I saw the kilt and said WHO IS THE HOT CHICK!!!


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## Jim C

archeryal said:


> Actually, we had two kilt wearers at the Indoor Nationals regional in Fiskdale (Sutubridge), Mass. Guy was one of them.


we have an officer of our state NFAA (OHIO ARCHERS) who sports one. No one is confusing him for a lady!!!


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## limbwalker

You guys really need to see sunshine more often. That's all I'm sayin'  ha, ha.


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## >--gt-->

This thread needs to be killed with fire. And maybe a few trigintillion stray neutrons.


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## chrstphr

ppayne said:


> Sorry Chris, but once again, the argument I was bringing forward was in response to a previous post from Humdinger stating that and I quote
> 
> "...Most Female Oly archers i know shoot around 36-40 lbs limbs which is right on par with a big number of Male..."
> 
> Please notice the RIGHT ON PAR statement here. Yes we are using the same 36-40 lbs limbs, no we are not right on par, we are in fact holding less weight so getting less speed. Unless of course HUmdinger was implying that just like most female archers, male archers using 36-40 lbs limbs are actually holding 33-34 lbs on their fingers, which I don't think is the case...Case closed


Yes, i stand corrected. i did not read where he wrote LIMBS. I was commenting in general, not to your specific. You are correct. 


Chris


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## ppayne

Keep in mind, Gentlemen, that if you were to opt for sport skirt wear on the shooting line, they will have to be at least as long as your fingertips with both your arms extended against your legs. Which given your longer arm length might prove to be a wee bit of a challenge... Vive la difference !


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## wanemann

TER said:


> Hey now... Kilts are completely masculine. I was on the same target as the archer you are likely referring to when the NAA Outdoor Champs were in Reading PA, the year of the Mother of all Rainstorm Floods occurred. Right away on Day One another target mate said to Guy, "What's that bulge? Are you carrying concealed? Why would you carry a gun here of all places?" Guy jerked his head toward the rest of the archers and said, "Just in case one of these knuckleheads gets out of line." I still chuckle every time I think of that. Always be prepared for you never know what!


ahh that's funny stuff... i totally pictured this guy being big and tall, with a long bow and back quiver, nudging towards the prim and proper tidy recurve guys lol.


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## >--gt-->

First tournament I ever shot with Guy was when he was a trainee for his department- wore a S&W 686 on his quiver belt. A little unusual to see in NY at that time.


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## Vittorio

HikerDave said:


> .....At the JOAD camp last fall, Mel Nichols gave some of his thoughts on coaching women. One big difference between men and women is that men are more likely to just to what they are told, but women want to know why and won't just blindly take orders from their coach....


Matter is not that easy . If women have trust in their coach, they will go down to the hell without any discussion, while men wil never reach such level of submisison. 
But getting trusted by women is pure art :angel:
You need to perfectly manage "50 shades of archery" to be succesfull :shade:


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## bowgal

Vittorio;1066807328
You need to perfectly manage "50 shades of archery" to be succesfull :shade:[/QUOTE said:


> Vittorio,
> 
> Now that's funny!!


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## lksseven

this is a Sports Illustrated article, exploring the 'art of coaching female athletes', that seems like a very good fit for this thread:

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/article/magazine/MAG1014737/1/index.htm


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## TexARC

*Who's that Guy with the kilt?*

Guy!
aka
Psychocop...


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