# La. 2006 Regular Session



## Free Range (Apr 18, 2005)

Good news for the Bayou State


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## Engelsmung (Jan 12, 2005)

*Hmmm,*

after the 6 page thread on this, I was surprised no bill was introduced. However, you never know with the La legislature. While working there in the late 80's. I saw a bill to lower the penalty for beating up flag burners amended to be an anti-abortion bill, on the Senate floor about 6 hours before the session closed. So maybe that is the plan here.


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## progers (Jan 22, 2006)

Be happy for this year because from the beginning, we said we were pushing for next year! 10,000+ on LA signatures so far! :wink:


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## PMantle (Feb 15, 2004)

Sorry, but generally, legislative sessions in odd-numbered years are limited to considering laws pertaining to fiscal matters. Although it is possible to introduce legislation that could affect hunting in an odd year, I would not count on it. You guys will probably have to wait for 2008.


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## progers (Jan 22, 2006)

That's kewl! We will still be there! Louisiana wants the money too bad to turn it down. We had something else come up this year that the BSBA was pushing and looks like we got that shot down pretty quick. Some were trying to push antler restrictions on the whole state and it seems that the good folks of North Louisiana ain't gonna have no part of that! Having this shot down was higher on the agenda than crossbows, in my eyes, so.......


Time is on our side. If I was wanting to hunt with a crossbow to begin with, I would just step across the state line and do it in Arkansas, a state where it has been legal for more than 30 years. I only live 10 minutes away.  

We will get the word out to the people over this year and the next, if we have to. We was wanting to wait till deer season anyway this year for the petitions as all the hunters will be gathered up at the deer camps and much easier to locate.

All good things come with time. Hey, we won the debate and that is all that matters for now. That just let us know we were doing the right thing. I just really love seeing them "I'm holier than thou" bowhunters squirm! They will get what they deserve! And the funny thing is, it is all in their imiganation!


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## PMantle (Feb 15, 2004)

So, you are against antler restrictions? Is there any way I could assist you in moving to another State?


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## PMantle (Feb 15, 2004)

progers said:


> That just let us know we were doing the right thing. I just really love seeing them "I'm holier than thou" bowhunters squirm! They will get what they deserve! And the funny thing is, it is all in their imiganation!



Oh I get it, you're an anti-bowhunter. Maybe you would fit in better at a PETA site?


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## PMantle (Feb 15, 2004)

progers said:


> When hunters in Louisiana are allowed 6 deer a year and they average only one, who the hell needs antler restrictions?


Do you really not see how you are wrong on this?


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## progers (Jan 22, 2006)

PMantle said:


> Do you really not see how you are wrong on this?


No but, I can see how you are wrong once again! ukey: 

It might could fly in the Mississippi Delta Region of LA but for the other 3/4 of the state it won't do a thing but hurt. As a matter of fact, the antler restriction project that happened over the past 3 years by the state in the tri-parish area was a FLOP! That is why it was done away with. The Gulf Coastal Region is not a good place for an antler restriction cause their isn't a stable deer herd. The Piney Hills Region of LA is too loaded with deer. The herd has been stable for more than 10 years now. How come people like you want to go and screw it up for everybody, including the deer?  

Here is something for you to read on the 6pt. Experimental Antler Program Results from the State: 
*2005-361 SIX POINT EXPERIMENTAL ANTLER PROGRAM RESULTS
12/9/2005*


The Louisiana Department of Wildlife and Fisheries Wildlife Division released today the results of a three-year six-point experimental antler program that was mandated by the Louisiana Wildlife and Fisheries Commission.
The experiment was done over the 2002/03, 2003/04 and 2004/05 deer hunting seasons in the tri-parish area of Iberville, Pointe Coupee and West Baton Rouge parishes. 

The experiment's plan was to restrict the antlered buck harvest. Only small bucks with antler spikes less than three inches and bucks with six or more antlers could legally be harvested. This plan would protect a portion of the yearling age class of bucks that are about a year and a half in age. These yearling bucks could then have a better chance of survival and become older bucks. While the harvest of 1 1/2-year-old bucks would decrease, and the harvest of 2 1/2 and 3 1/2-year-old bucks would increase.

The results are as follows:

· The yearling buck harvest went from an average of 452 bucks in the three years before the study down to an average of 215 bucks during the study.

· The 2 1/2-year-old buck harvest averaged 422 bucks during the three years before the study and dropped to 299 bucks during the experiment.

· The 3 1/2-year-old buck harvest averaged 389 bucks during the three years before the study and stayed almost even with 385 bucks during the experiment.

· Harvest of 4 1/2-year-old bucks averaged 96 in the three years before the study and increased to 174 bucks during the three-year experiment.

· *Physical characteristics of the harvested deer before and during the experiment showed little to no change. Body weights and antler development have remained constant in all three parishes. 

The overall success of this experiment was limited. Applying antler point restrictions across the state as a whole would produce similar results. The study concludes that a reduction in the buck limit would be a better approach for deer management in Louisiana rather than implementing statewide antler restrictions.* 

For more information, contact Dave Moreland at 225-765-2348 or [email protected].



http://www.wlf.state.la.us/apps/netgear/index.asp?cn=lawlf&pid=13&id=1134138074



_________________________________________________________________

If you ain't killing big bucks, it's not the deer herds fault, it's your own. Change your hunting tactics cause there are big bucks all around you. We can't help it if you can't see them. Apparently, they are smarter than most of us! :wink:

If you would like links to more states that are now reconsidering the antler restrictions that they have in place, I will be happy to hook you up! We have been researching this since the end of the crossbow debate and we will gladly challenge you to another debate! 

Have a good day! :darkbeer:


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## PMantle (Feb 15, 2004)

First you said:



> When hunters in Louisiana are allowed 6 deer a year and they average only one, who the hell needs antler restrictions?



then you said:



> The Piney Hills Region of LA is too loaded with deer.


then you quoted a study that said:



> The study concludes that a reduction in the buck limit would be a better approach for deer management in Louisiana rather than implementing statewide antler restrictions.



Look, I know this stuff is more than you are used to having to deal with. I am sorry that you can't really understand it. It might assist us in helping you if you could tell us what you actually believe about the deer heard and what your desires are. Only then can we actually have an educated discussion of how best to manage the herd.


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## PMantle (Feb 15, 2004)

> · The yearling buck harvest went from an average of 452 bucks in the three years before the study down to an average of 215 bucks during the study.
> 
> · The 2 1/2-year-old buck harvest averaged 422 bucks during the three years before the study and dropped to 299 bucks during the experiment.
> 
> ...


So, harvest of bucks that should not have been shot went down, and harvest of mature bucks went up. Them's the facts, and the facts look good.


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## progers (Jan 22, 2006)

PMantle said:


> So, harvest of bucks that should not have been shot went down, and harvest of mature bucks went up. Them's the facts, and the facts look good.



And the fact is that it was up for the ENTIRE STATE for those years! Isn't that funny!  :wink: 

WOW! 78 deer over 3 years! That is worth getting rid of a few thousand hunters! 

Research the areas! It only went up in one parish and the other two went down! :wink: 

1 out of 3 is pretty bad odds! ukey: 

As I said, the STATE done shot that down, it ain't happening! :wink:

Also, look at some of the other states with documentation of how antler restrictions has caused the average of antlers to decline. Mississippi and Arkansas should get you started. 

The greed of hunters like you is what keeps PETA in business. Keep up the good work and get it shut down for all of us. :cocktail: 

Oh, and by the way, it ain't all about hunting horns for most of the folks in Louisiana. But, you wouldn't understand because all you do is hound dog people on the internet cause you ain't got a life! 

Just as last time, you are a waste of my time!


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## PMantle (Feb 15, 2004)

progers said:


> But, you wouldn't understand because all you do is hound dog people on the internet cause you ain't got a life!
> 
> Just as last time, you are a waste of my time!


You're a big sweetie aren't you?

*** :nono: Please, this is an Archery site, not a fishing site. Trolling is certainly frowned upon doctariAFC ***


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## Engelsmung (Jan 12, 2005)

*so, to sum it up...*

before the thread hijack/degeneration into name calling, we had some other threads about introducing crossbows to La. followed by online petitions, etc. The legislative session started, only one bill was filed, to allow drawlocks for 60+ and handicapped hunters, who are already allowed to use crossbows. 2007 is a fiscal only session, so I guess we'll have to wait until 2008 to share the love and woods, or at least to see a bill directed toward that purpose. By that time I'll be so old, fat and decrepit I might actually have to use a gun to hunt deer. Oh the humiliation. 

But at least I'll have some fancy new camo and a new Ford on which i can strap my deer to the hood.


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## cynic (Jan 25, 2006)

The gun part would probably be a good idea since you don't seem to be able to achieve with a bow..What I really don't understand is if most of you guys have a problem killing 1 deer no matter what is legislated ya'll will still have a problem so why worry about it? Maybe all the extras that you worry about, is what is keeping you from being a real hunter..Week-end warriors need to be content with just being able to hunt..


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## PMantle (Feb 15, 2004)

Engelsmung said:


> But at least I'll have some fancy new camo and a new Ford on which i can strap my deer to the hood.


LIAR!



You'd never buy a Ford. Oh, and your 1996 Mathews won't do in our crowd. It's Switchback XT or nothing! Oh, and that 3 miles pansy walk you do to pig island is simply not far enough to be a real hunter. Better find some place deeper in the woods you newb!


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## cynic (Jan 25, 2006)

PMantle said:


> LIAR!
> 
> 
> 
> You'd never buy a Ford. Oh, and your 1996 Mathews won't do in our crowd. It's Switchback XT or nothing! Oh, and that 3 miles pansy walk you do to pig island is simply not far enough to be a real hunter. Better find some place deeper in the woods you newb!


Not deeper in the woods just back in the hole..Switchbacks aren't anything special it just has a bigger price tag because those that buy them pay for the advertising..Not really the smartest thing for educated people to do..
And his one of a kind Mathews would do in any crowd since it is the only one they made with his specs...Bowhuntersukey:


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## Engelsmung (Jan 12, 2005)

*wow!*

Cynic, they haven't kicked you off the Anger Management team yet? You seem a bit testy. I didn't take any Psych classes at LSU, so I'll let Pmantle analyze the rationale behind asserting the inadequacies of others...projection, maybe? Well, he took those classes just to meet girls, so I doubt he remembers any of that. 

At least Progers, regardless of whether we disagree, actually hunts here in La. His interest is therefore personal, and based on what he wants to do here, and will actually affect him. All the stuff from out of state folks seems pointless. But i digress...


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## Engelsmung (Jan 12, 2005)

PMantle said:


> LIAR!
> Oh, and that 3 miles pansy walk you do to pig island is simply not far enough to be a real hunter. Better find some place deeper in the woods you newb!


Well, if you would actually be dressed when I come to your house at 3:45am, I might have time to walk further into the woods. I could even start following my hero, Johnny, back to his secret spot. 

You are correct about the Ford though. After the LTD left me hanging on the interstate, I'll never buy one.


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## cynic (Jan 25, 2006)

Nope not yet! I will be hunting La this year..I am going to get to be out there the last wk of june and 2 wks in aug to build stands for the season.....So, we may meet after all..

to build stands for the season...


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## thesource (May 19, 2005)

progers said:


> The greed of hunters like you is what keeps PETA in business. Keep up the good work and get it shut down for all of us. :cocktail:


LOL....

What's with you guys? You start losing an arguement and out pops the "PETA defense".

You know the one ..... "You don't agree with me so you must belong to PETA!"

It really doesn't matter if its crossbows, high fence, antler restriction, baiting, or Matthews vs Hoyt......


You're Peta....I/m gonna tell! He's touching me!


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## cynic (Jan 25, 2006)

Engelsmung said:


> I didn't take any Psych classes at LSU, so I'll let Pmantle analyze the rationale behind asserting the inadequacies of others...projection, maybe? Well, he took those classes just to meet girls, so I doubt he remembers any of that.


Is LSU even a real school? JK That's the problem with colleges. Back in my day we went for an education, girls were a bonus..Seems that most after that era went for girls and skipped the educational process..


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## PMantle (Feb 15, 2004)

*** :nono: Please, this is an Archery site, not a fishing site. Trolling is certainly frowned upon doctariAFC ***[/QUOTE]

Uh Doc, I was the one told I had no life.


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## doctariAFC (Aug 25, 2005)

PMantle said:


> *** :nono: Please, this is an Archery site, not a fishing site. Trolling is certainly frowned upon doctariAFC ***


Uh Doc, I was the one told I had no life.[/QUOTE]
I know, and I deleted that post, but, let's not get the gasoline out to quench the fire, ok?

Thus far the "debate" is bordering on the abyss. I have no issues, indeed I encourgae, such debate regarding legislation, as this is important. However, I am applying the "No Class gets an EOP Action Award" out equally to all.

And, I also can read, and although you are to be commended for keeping your comments somewhat professional, I can worms on a hook with the statements, especially "sweetie".....

I was born in the dark, but it wasn't last night 

Thanks in advance for your help in keeping the thread a few steps away from the terlet.....


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## Engelsmung (Jan 12, 2005)

cynic said:


> Is LSU even a real school? JK That's the problem with colleges. Back in my day we went for an education, girls were a bonus..Seems that most after that era went for girls and skipped the educational process..


It's definitely a basketball, football and baseball school. And "your day" was only 5 years before mine, so I doubt the skirt chasing had ramped up any.

Anyhow, I stand corrected. You're obviously hunting private land here, so have an actual dog in the fight. I'm hunting public land exclusively, so am more affected by the various rules and regs imposed statewide. When I get invited to a good private lease, it's like going to heaven. Some folks just want to improve the hunting on all land, while private clubs can make whatever rules they want to create the type of hunting their members prefer. Until you've spent few years in the public woods, it's difficult to understand what we go thru, but it is not easy, by any stretch of the imagination.


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## progers (Jan 22, 2006)

PMantle said:


> Oh I get it, you're an anti-bowhunter. Maybe you would fit in better at a PETA site?



TheSource, I think YOUR side throwed the PETA comment out first, just as always.  I guess you can't retain information past a couple of lines!  

And yes, out of state hunters have intrest in this state and Cynic is now a member of a lease here in LA so, that puts him in the running for arguement. :wink: 

Mungs, if you will be too fat in 2 years then chances are you are too fat now! ukey: 

Anyway, we didn't push the crossbow to the legistlature this year as there was not much time when all this started. The online petition was just a diversion that you fell for. We are circulating hand signed petitions and have reached the 10,000 mark and we still haven't had our seminar with Keith Warren from the Outdoor Channel who is backing the crossbow 100%! 

As I said, we were more concerned with the stupidity of the antler restrictions and we focused on that. And it looks like that was shot down. Now that is behind us, we will focus on the crossbow issue. 

Oh, I noticed that a few more states has revised their crossbow laws for the better since our last conversation. I don't recall any restrictions being prevoked. Yall are getting choked down state by state, year by year.  

As far as this year, you can let your **** **no personal attacks, this is a wanring, next personal attack shall result in an EOP action. Keep it perofessional, please doctariAFC **that it was shot down when actually it wasn't persued. I will bide my time and see you when the crossbow hits the market in LA over the next few years.


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## cynic (Jan 25, 2006)

Engelsmung said:


> Well, if you would actually be dressed when I come to your house at 3:45am, I might have time to walk further into the woods. I could even start following my hero, Johnny, back to his secret spot.
> 
> You are correct about the Ford though. After the LTD left me hanging on the interstate, I'll never buy one.


Several things puzzle me about people of higher education

1. Why would you continue to go hunt a spot that is not producing what you want..? 
2. Why do you think you have to walk farther to find a bigger deer..? Many live along and in small parcels. You just have to hunt them, not hike
3. Why would you blame an inanimate object for leaving you stranded? Maybe the blame should be placed where it is best deserved..Most stranded motorist come from not properly maintaining the vehicle..


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## PMantle (Feb 15, 2004)

progers said:


> As I said, we were more concerned with the stupidity of the antler restrictions and we focused on that. And it looks like that was shot down. Now that is behind us, we will focus on the crossbow issue.


Could you tell us why you are against the antler restrictions? Do you favor the 6 deer limit with no buck limit? Are you in favor of harvesting 1 1/2 year old bucks? 

Thanks.


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## PMantle (Feb 15, 2004)

cynic said:


> Several things puzzle me about people of higher education
> 
> 1. Why would you continue to go hunt a spot that is not producing what you want..?
> 2. Why do you think you have to walk farther to find a bigger deer..? Many live along and in small parcels. You just have to hunt them, not hike
> 3. Why would you blame an inanimate object for leaving you stranded? Maybe the blame should be placed where it is best deserved..Most stranded motorist come from not properly maintaining the vehicle..



1. It's the only spot reasonably close without a very long gun season. The place does not have the numbers it once had, but has decent numbers of mature bucks.
2. To avoid walking up on other hunters, i.e., the lack of bowhunting only public land creates crowding issues.

3. He has an irrational hate of Ford.


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## doctariAFC (Aug 25, 2005)

PMantle said:


> Could you tell us why you are against the antler restrictions? Do you favor the 6 deer limit with no buck limit? Are you in favor of harvesting 1 1/2 year old bucks?
> 
> Thanks.


Pmantle, we're going thourhg this debate right now in NYS as well. PM me your email address and I can send you some very interesting reading concerning AP and QDM. Perhaps some ideas would foment from some of the stuff we are going through here.

To give some specifics, we have two QDM ideas circulating, one in the Eastern part of NY (Region 3), where two Wildlife Mgmt Units adopted an AR of 3 measureable tines on one beam (1 inch or bigger) as a pilot progra,. Buck harvests in both WMUs were down over 50%, despite the buck harvest being up across NYS (albeit slightly). The second QDM ppsl would demand antler beam width beyond the ear tips, and this one is being shoved through the legislative process. Three County Federations have already voted on a position, and my Federation, Erie County, along with Allegany and Cattaraugus are virtually unanimously against these plans. The idea is good, but needs some serious refinement.


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## cynic (Jan 25, 2006)

What ya'll are forgetting is that each of you has the ability to pass on any deer. Not every deer that you pass will get shot. It would be impossible. Stop worrying about what someone else does and concern yourselves with what you do. Hunting is supposed to be FUN and EXCITING I get excited everytime I see a deer. I get even more excited dragging one out


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## doctariAFC (Aug 25, 2005)

cynic said:


> What ya'll are forgetting is that each of you has the ability to pass on any deer. Not every deer that you pass will get shot. It would be impossible. Stop worrying about what someone else does and concern yourselves with what you do. Hunting is supposed to be FUN and EXCITING I get excited everytime I see a deer. I get even more excited dragging one out


Good points. Its also about effective herd population management, not trophy buck management. Trophy bucks are trophies, not because they're big and impressive, but because they are RARE. QDM practices, when legislated, turn the effective management tool hunting truly is for herd conservation into much more about trophy hunting. Educating a hunter and leaving it up to the hunter is what should be done, not making laws. This is on the same level as catch & release angling, which was adopted by many through hard work in educating and promoting the practice. 

One other issue is we constantly hear about the need to harvest more antlerless deer to maintain the herd, yet how many hunters do you know personally who simply refuse to shoot does because that "isn't deer hunting" or "its too easy" or whatever? I know tons of them. We need to educate and change attitudes concerning harvesting does, not shove it down throats, because that, too, will drive hunters away from the sport.

Must be careful with this one.


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## cynic (Jan 25, 2006)

Gun season does not exclude the use of a bow, You can still use the weapon you choose..If the area maintains a good herd consisting of many mature bucks no change is needed to the herd. Maybe you can work on the skill of luck.. Close is a relative term. Close to me is the SE US, Fl Ga Sc Al and this year La..I spend a great deal of money on hunting. I hunt backstrap except during Rut.


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## PMantle (Feb 15, 2004)

cynic said:


> Gun season does not exclude the use of a bow, You can still use the weapon you choose..If the area maintains a good herd consisting of many mature bucks no change is needed to the herd. Maybe you can work on the skill of luck.. Close is a relative term. Close to me is the SE US, Fl Ga Sc Al and this year La..I spend a great deal of money on hunting. I hunt backstrap except during Rut.



If there is a gun season going on, it is crowded, and generally over hunted in this area. No thanks.


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## Engelsmung (Jan 12, 2005)

cynic said:


> Several things puzzle me about people of higher education
> 
> 1. Why would you continue to go hunt a spot that is not producing what you want..?
> 2. Why do you think you have to walk farther to find a bigger deer..? Many live along and in small parcels. You just have to hunt them, not hike
> 3. Why would you blame an inanimate object for leaving you stranded? Maybe the blame should be placed where it is best deserved..Most stranded motorist come from not properly maintaining the vehicle..


Wait, are you now saying LSU is higher education? 
1. It's free, and the best spot discovered in years of scouting. I hunt both Lac Ophelia(marksville) and Bayou Cocodrie(ferriday) NWRs. With a wife & three daughters, one of whom is headed to LSU in August, I can not afford a nice, bow only lease.
2. Sometimes I wonder that myself, but there are no public small parcels, just big woods and CRP.
3. I don't think Mom changed the oil for 30K miles in the LTD before she gave it to me, so you're probably right. However, the prejudice stuck. My Jeep has 211K miles, so I do maintain my stuff.

So, where do you hunt in La?


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## thesource (May 19, 2005)

progers said:


> TheSource, I think YOUR side throwed the PETA comment out first, just as always.  I guess you can't retain information past a couple of lines!


Let's review.

You said:


progers said:


> I just really love seeing them "I'm holier than thou" bowhunters squirm! They will get what they deserve!


at which point PMantle replied:


PMantle said:


> Oh I get it, you're an anti-bowhunter. Maybe you would fit in better at a PETA site?


Hard to disagree with that - you are busted on an archery website saying demeaning bowhunters. 


Your statement, however, is not nearly as cut and dry:



progers said:


> The greed of hunters like you is what keeps PETA in business. Keep up the good work and get it shut down for all of us. :cocktail:


What greed? Are you suggesting _bowhunters _are keeping PETA in business? Where did that come from?

Perhaps there are some other, non-archery sites that may be more in line with your point of view.

They probably like crossbows there, too.:wink:


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## progers (Jan 22, 2006)

PMantle said:


> Could you tell us why you are against the antler restrictions? Do you favor the 6 deer limit with no buck limit? Are you in favor of harvesting 1 1/2 year old bucks?
> 
> Thanks.


OK, for starters, I have told yall that I also bow hunt. It was here and I believe that it was someone who is posting in this thread that told me that "bowhunters" are a better 'class of hunters', which is a joke! Considering most "bowhunters" are actually gun hunters that take advantage of the easy hunting of early season and most "bowhunters" take advantage of the 'easy way out' by using compounds instead of actual traditional archery equipment so, quit trying to fool yourself.

Now, to answer your question, I'm in favor of whatever the individual wants to take as long as he or she stays in the seasonol bag limits. It is estimated that 67% of LA land is POSTED and PRIVATE property where most are "trying" to "manage" what they call "their deer herd". Then, the funny thing is, most of the largest state record bucks are coming off WMA's, which by the way doesn't have the people making these screwed up rules to prevent killing deer that is needed to meet "quotas" on a stable deer herd that has been that way for over 10 years.

As far as the public land goes, there are a few WMA's that are slightly overcrowded, mainly in South Louisiana. Most don't get far off the road. As I said, the larger trophies are coming off the WMA's in LA so, you need to actually get into the woods to see deer and quit seeing people. There is about 1.3 million acres of WMA land in LA. There is one single deer lease in LA that is over 1.5 million acres. If you don't like hunting the public land, go work some overtime and fork out a few 100 bucks and join a lease and push the rules on those people! 

People need to be left alone to do what they feel is the right thing to manage their individual areas. It is called DEER hunting, not BUCK hunting. Any state that has antler restrictions calls for mass killing of doe to keep the herd in check. This can not happen for many years until it seriously damages the deer herd and causes it to become unstable again.

Also, where antler restrictions come into play you have QDMA knocking at the door to sell their product. I find it funny that QDMA never gave LA anything until LA shot down the antler restrictions then they show up with 10 cheap GPS's to give the LDWF. Sounds like a cheap bribe to me! 

All it is is another means to use deer hunting to line the pockets of people and it will push away more hunters. 

They were proposing a 6pt. or better antler restriction for LA which is a JOKE! What that does is cause children and new comers to have to pass on bucks that could be their "first" deer and will cause them to give up on hunting after a few years because they can't meet the restriction or may not be sure if that 6pt really has brow tines.

Now, QDM will push it for supplemental food plots. Now you have 1.5's with great genetics hitting the legal antler restriction and getting killed and the inferior bucks left to breed. It is a documented fact that this is happening in other states thus leading to smaller average racks being taken. As I said, it is a joke. In the states that have antler restrictions, the in state hunters are dropping rapidly and the out of state hunters for those states are climbing as of now. Just speculation but, they think that they are going to have an easier chance at getting a trophy buck. As these states are haveing smaller average bucks taken, it is just a matter of time before these out of state hunters quit coming there to hunt.

Pmantle, incase you didn't know, a deer killed with a crossbow is just as dead and as just as much of a trophy than any other deer. 

Sounds to me thru your words that yall are pushing to have less hunters in "your woods"! That is the GREED that I am referring to! :wink: 

Yes, I am in favor of harvesting a 1.5 year old buck if I so choose! QDM does not put quality backstrap in the freezer and don't you forget that! :darkbeer:

Don't be fooled by antler restrictions and QDMA. Do you know the difference in Quality Deer Management and Trophy Deer Management? Probably not!


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## PMantle (Feb 15, 2004)

I really don't think your answer is responsive to the questions asked. I'll take a stab at it though. You favor killing any deer at any age, buck or doe? You have no interest in protecting young bucks? You don't believe our buck to doe ratio is out of whack?


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## doctariAFC (Aug 25, 2005)

PMantle said:


> I really don't think your answer is responsive to the questions asked. I'll take a stab at it though. You favor killing any deer at any age, buck or doe? You have no interest in protecting young bucks? You don't believe our buck to doe ratio is out of whack?


Buck to doe ratio can be controlled with other means, beyond the AR or QDM initiatives. First, you can limit hunters to a set number of bucks per season, per hunter. Such as one or two. Further, at the same time, promote the living you know what out of harvesting antlerless deer, either through more permits (or any permit system in LA for that matter) or extended season opportunities for antlerless only harvest.

Education and hunter attitude is critical to success of more effective herd management. Legislation restricting opportunity results in higher poaching and even lower license sales, as hunters, especially on private lands, will simply say, to heck with this, I'll shoot what I want on my land and process it in my garage or barn. Come and get me. Without a solid statewide permit and reporting system in place, it becomes awfully difficult to enforce, even with an AR, but the perception of a "loss of opportunity" in ability to harvest a buck, be it a trophy or scruff/ young deer, will most certainly drive hunters away. Having an abundance of "trophy bucks" does not necessarily boost hunter excitement. You still have to see them and hunt them and bag them, and this does not change with QDM. AFter all, the older a buck is, the smarter a buck is.

This one needs to be thought out very carefully, including identifying the current trends of hunters in LA, understanding and benchmarking where the current harvests, statewide, public and private lands, stand before making any QDM/ AR implementations responsible and effective.

Also, as an aside, many wildlife biologists are in agreement that when it comes to antlerless harvest, the desired animals are the younger does, rather than the more mature does. The reason is reporductive maturing. As it was explained to me, many does will be ready to breed at 1 1/2. However, the hormonal levels and lack of maturity will often mean the first year, even first two years, or sexual maturity, translates into higher birth numbers. Something to do with a doe maturing to the ability of the land to sustain more deer, and their bodies naturally account for this and birth rate may be one or two fawns, vs two or three fawns from a younger doe. I kind of scratched my head at this, but more than a couple cervid biologists I know have repeated this aspect of doe management and herd management, so I must take this as truth. How do you promote taking little does and big bucks effectively? The answer is with incredible difficulty.


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## progers (Jan 22, 2006)

PMantle said:


> I really don't think your answer is responsive to the questions asked. I'll take a stab at it though. You favor killing any deer at any age, buck or doe? You have no interest in protecting young bucks? You don't believe our buck to doe ratio is out of whack?


Well, I think it was. What part of stable deer herd for over 10 years in LA do you not understand? You're not going to get a perfect 1 to 1 ratio unless you have less deer than what we have here in LA. We are LOADED with deer. 

What do you consider "out of whack"? 2 to 1, 3 to 1, 4 to 1? What? On my property we have documented a 1.5 to 1 over the past two years running. I have been practicing, for the most part, certain parts of "QDM" and now I have spikes running all over the place. It's time to start putting them down for the benifit of the deer herd. The food is plentiful and they are not moving on along like the book said they would. Now, we are possibly having interbreeding.

So, to answer your questions, I favor killing any deer at any age, buck or doe. Doesn't matter. Younger deer taste better. We are having more twins born than not. I personally let most younger bucks walk but, I would never push for that to be mandatory. As I have said, approximatly 67% of the land is leased and the clubs can put their own restrictions into place if they want. As for me and my family, if my son or wife wants to take a spike or a 4pt. then so be it! The excitement is there and that will keep them hunting for many years to come. Your buck ratio maybe out of wack down there in South LA but, we are apparently looking much better in my neck of the woods. I would bet that the ratio is closer than you could imagine. Go put out some game cameras and see all the bucks that are wondering the woods at night! :wink: 

As Doc said, there are plenty of options to get ratio's into check without AR's. For instance, here in LA right now, they are wanting to go to a 3 buck/ 3 doe limit for the 6 deer per year instead of 6 of either sex. There is your "QDM" at work for you without AR's! Also, they are talking about making everyday doe day! Once again, a "QDM" at work without AR's! How you ask? Because that is releiving the pressure from the bucks.

Now, answer my question: Is AR's a push for Trophy Management rather than Quality Deer Management? 

My answer is: You bet it is! The last thing I want in my state in mandatory trophy buck management!

I would stand behind the tagging proposal and the 3/3 limit with NO AR's but, that is as far as that needs to go! As we have heard so many times tho, that is just a "gateway" to lead to mandatory trophy management so, just as you with the crossbow, we might as well fight the whole thing to keep it ALL out of our state.


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## Engelsmung (Jan 12, 2005)

progers said:


> OK, for starters, I have told yall that I also bow hunt. It was here and I believe that it was someone who is posting in this thread that told me that "bowhunters" are a better 'class of hunters', which is a joke! Considering most "bowhunters" are actually gun hunters that take advantage of the easy hunting of early season and most "bowhunters" take advantage of the 'easy way out' by using compounds instead of actual traditional archery equipment so, quit trying to fool yourself.
> 
> Then, the funny thing is, most of the largest state record bucks are coming off WMA's, which by the way doesn't have the people making these screwed up rules to prevent killing deer that is needed to meet "quotas" on a stable deer herd that has been that way for over 10 years.
> 
> As far as the public land goes, there are a few WMA's that are slightly overcrowded, mainly in South Louisiana. Most don't get far off the road. As I said, the larger trophies are coming off the WMA's in LA so, you need to actually get into the woods to see deer and quit seeing people. There is about 1.3 million acres of WMA land in LA. There is one single deer lease in LA that is over 1.5 million acres. If you don't like hunting the public land, go work some overtime and fork out a few 100 bucks and join a lease and push the rules on those people!


76.5% of statistic are made up, just like that one. Where all these "facts" came from, I can't figure out. Bowhunters are not a better class of hunters, just less successful b/c it's harder to harvest that way. How does one determine that "most" bowhunters are gunhunters taking advantage of the early season? If crossbows were added to the archery season, I suspect your conclusion would become true.
Pmantle and i bowhunt only, b/c we find it more exciting. We live in Central La, and the WMAs and Nat'l Forests are very crowded during gun season, but not so much during bow season. Unfortunately, the harvest during the various gun/mz season limits the deer population, making bow success slight. You can check the WMA stats to confirm that. Bow only leases are relatively rare, and expensive, the last one he belonged to was $2500 a year, and you only got 5 deer(2 does/3 bucks). That's a bit steep. For a few hundred bucks you can get in a cutover piney woods lease, and shoots does and spikes with your gun, but that's not something that I'm interested in.
Anyway, the real battle now in the state is the deer doggers vs. the still hunters. They make the bow vs. crossbow factions look like a gentlemans' club argument over scoth vs. gin.:wink:


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## PMantle (Feb 15, 2004)

Actually, it was 3 does and 2 bucks. They went to high fence, so it is not even an option for me anymore. I know of exactly zero bow only leases within 2 hours of here. I know there is one in north central Tensas I could join, but that is one heck of a drive for me.


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## Engelsmung (Jan 12, 2005)

*I-49 Corridor WMA*

Don't forget the I-49 Corridor, spider infested WMA, which is bow only. That's the shiznit.


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## Fireemt124 (Jan 24, 2006)

I guess I'm on the fence on this one. I like the idea of everyday being a doe day. I bowhunt and gun hunt so the lease I am on is pretty good for the way I hunt. My brother lives and hunts in Arkansas and loves the three point rule, although the first few years were tough, he has seen a big difference in the deer. So whatever the state decides I will manage my lease pretty much the same as I have been. I just hope the doe day thing goes through to save me the DMAP money I planned on spending this year


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