# Paper and Rest tuning



## nag (Jun 13, 2007)

A 30+ pro shop owner told me years ago that broadheads were difficult to tune at speeds over 285 f.p.s.
Not sure what he based this on, but it does make sense that the faster we push an an arrow; any mismatches in broadhead rest combinations will show up.
My tuning method is pretty much like yours.
Bow torquing and grip inconsistances tend to show up at longer yardages. Not implying you have a problem...just stating a fact.
Don't worry about hpw the paper teear look....as long as the bow groups and the arrows hit where you want, that's the issue.
That's why you walkback tune.
You didn't mention the brand broadhead......... maybe a differnt brand with a different profile might work better.
Muzzy's always flew the best for me, with Thunderheads a close second.


----------



## bfisher (Nov 30, 2002)

Just for giggles try dropping the draw weight a few pounds. Could be that your arrows are right on the edge for spine and any mistake you make will show up more readily. Don't be afraid to play with the limb bolts. What weight points are you using? Could be that the FOC is just a tad on the light side which would let the arrows drift at the longer distances. Just a couple things to take into consideration.


----------



## Rob D (Dec 26, 2009)

bfisher said:


> just for giggles try dropping the draw weight a few pounds. Could be that your arrows are right on the edge for spine and any mistake you make will show up more readily. Don't be afraid to play with the limb bolts. What weight points are you using? Could be that the foc is just a tad on the light side which would let the arrows drift at the longer distances. Just a couple things to take into consideration.


x2...


----------



## kilerhamilton (Jul 19, 2010)

not to be blunt but my honest thought. tune with field points. and move sights, sight in with broad heads. just spin test your broad heads


----------



## Ehunter42 (Mar 3, 2010)

I've tried dropping the draw weight down to 60 pounds, still get the same results. Shooting 100 gr. Shuttle T-Locks. Arrows have been spin tested with the broadheads, and are straight. My FOC is pushing 22%. Tried shooting with Slick Tricks last night, got the same results. If I was torquing the bow, wouldn't it show up gradually as I changed to longer distances? A little off at 30, more at 40, etc.... I'm getting 1 1/2 inch groups at 40 yards, and right on the mark. Then at 50 yards, about 2 inch groups, but high and right. Checked my pin alignment again, for being perfectly vertical, and it seems to be right. I don't have much hair left to pull out, so any help is GREATLY appreciated. Thanks to all that have replied.


----------



## sniperjim (Aug 28, 2010)

Ehunter42 said:


> I've tried dropping the draw weight down to 60 pounds, still get the same results. Shooting 100 gr. Shuttle T-Locks. Arrows have been spin tested with the broadheads, and are straight. My FOC is pushing 22%. Tried shooting with Slick Tricks last night, got the same results. If I was torquing the bow, wouldn't it show up gradually as I changed to longer distances? A little off at 30, more at 40, etc.... I'm getting 1 1/2 inch groups at 40 yards, and right on the mark. Then at 50 yards, about 2 inch groups, but high and right. Checked my pin alignment again, for being perfectly vertical, and it seems to be right. I don't have much hair left to pull out, so any help is GREATLY appreciated. Thanks to all that have replied.


Your FOC is too high! You want a range of 5%-15% for best results.


----------



## Doc (Jun 10, 2003)

Why are you going backwards? Paper gives you a starting point, then you move to walk-back tuning to do finer adjustments and then you broadhead tune to get your rig ready to hunt...why go back to paper again?:noidea:
This is like changing the oil in your car and then driving it with the new oil. You would then put the old oil back in...doesn't make sense.


----------



## Bonz (Jan 15, 2006)

Try just paper tuning to a perfect bullet hole and then shooting your broadheads. Paper tune more than one arrow. Skip the walkback tune and just for grins try getting a few arrows to shoot a perfect, and I mean perfect bullet hole. Then go out and sight in with fp's and get your sight set, then throw on some bh's on the arrows that you paper tuned with and see what happens. Usually if I get all 12 arrows out of a dozen to shoot a perfect bullet hole, my bh's will shoot right on with my fp's, that is with no walkback tune or anything else that involes moving the rest. As was said before make sure the bh's spin true on your arrows. And also, don't pyche yourself out when shooting bh's. Sometimes I find myself so worried if they are going to be on that it ruins my form. Just shoot it like you don't care where the bh hits, take your time and just relax and follow thru on your shot. Another important thing is when paper tuning, use the same grip, form, and follow thru that you use when shooting at a target. If you change anything in your form between paper tuning and shooting at a target, it will make you think your tune is off. Always use the same consistant form whether you are paper tuning or shooting at a target. For instance, if you hold your arm up after the follow thru when paper tuning and then let's say you drop your arm after the shot when shooting at a target, those arrows will be leaving the bow different when you are shooting at a target even though you thought you were getting a perfect bullet hole in paper. If you go back and shoot thru paper and drop your arm on the follow thru it will give you a different reading in the paper than you had before when you were holding your arm up and following thru. 
One thing I learned this year is when I would get tired after shooting some arrows that I would dip or tilt my head to the side of the string instead of bringing the string to my face like you are supposed to do. Bring the bow to you, not you to the bow. When I was dipping my head my arrows would start drifting off to the right( I am a right handed archer) especially as longer ranges it would progressively get more and more to the right. Once I figured out what I was doing wrong the arrows started shooting right down the middle again. It showed up on paper also, I would start out shooting perfect bullet holes and after a while I would get a left tear. It was because I was getting sloppy on form and tilting my head to meet the string. Therefore It caused a left tear and the arrows were coming off the bow pointed to the right, which would explain why they planed off to the right when I was shooting at my targets.


----------



## Ehunter42 (Mar 3, 2010)

Doc, I only shot through paper again to see what my tears looked like. It was just a curiosity. I just wanted to see how far from a perfect hole I would get after rest tuning.

Bonz, I shot 6 arrows paper tuning, got a perfect hole with all 6. Then changed 3 of them over to BH's. Made sure they were spin tested, and straight. That's how I've always done my BH tuning in the past. After not hitting with both FP and BH at 50 yards, I shot again at 40, and they were right on target. That kind of eliminated a form problem to me. I'll try again tomorrow afternoon, and see what happens. 

Thanks again to all who have replied!


----------



## 3children (Aug 10, 2008)

The only thing I can suggest is to go up in spine. Find someone that shoots a 300 spine with 29-30" and shoot it. The charts are not figuring in the speeds of todays bows. I shoot a 340 spine at 55lbs and the chart says 400 is the right shaft. Well the chart lied!!! I can get the bh to fly fine at 30-40yds but at 80+yds it was off. You can also drop the weight on your bow to 60lbs and that might work!


----------



## sniperjim (Aug 28, 2010)

Your FOC is still too high. Arrow drift with 22% is going to be greater after 30-40 yds, try a heavier grain head.


----------



## Ehunter42 (Mar 3, 2010)

sniperjim, adding a heavier head is just going to make the FOC even greater. I've always been told that there is no such things as too high of an FOC. I have seen some guys on here with an FOC over what I'm shooting, and they say it works just fine.

I shot again last night, and still couldn't figure out what the heck is causing my problem, so last night I decided to start over. Stripped the bow down to bare, then started putting everything back on it, double checking everything as I went. Should be able to go shoot it tonight, and see what happens. I know stripping the bow is overkill, but it was time ot start over for me. Thanks again too all who replied!


----------



## fletched (May 10, 2006)

Try a few different broadheads to see if the results change. Some broadheads don't fly as well as others. Try some magnus stingers or something that has a reputation of flying well.


----------



## bjleslie (Aug 28, 2006)

Curious as to how you get 22% FOC with a 100gr head?? You don't say what rest you're using but with a 29" draw & 30" arrow with most of what's on the market you'd have something like 2 1/2" of excess shaft hanging out in front of the rest. That would lower your effective spine about 10+#. Also could be you need more assitance from your fletching, more spin to counter whatever the bh is doing.


----------



## Ehunter42 (Mar 3, 2010)

bjleslie, the arrows I'm shooting are Victory Armour Piercing 340 spine. They have a 43 gr. half outsert. That's how the FOC gets so high. I do have about 2 1/2 inches of arrow beyond the rest. I shoot a Trophy Taker drop away. Gotta keep the broadhead in front of the riser with it so you can get to full draw without popping the arrow off the string. Fletched with 2in. Quick Spins, so I think that the stability is there. Also tried shooting with 3 inch Fusion vanes, and 3 inch Wildman Fury vanes. Same result with both of the other fletchings.

fletched, I have tried 3 different broadheads, and get the same result with all of them. Figure it's gotta be something in my tuning, so I just started over. Paper, rest, and nock tuned last night with field points, but ran out of light to shoot broadheads. That's my plan of attack for today.


----------



## rraming (Aug 5, 2006)

What distance (or distances) are you paper tuning? No offense but 6 out of 6 were bullet holes and you are fairly new to this forum (8 months) - let's take a look at how your paper tuning this bow. Is the paper LEVEL with your arrow, what distance, bullet hole at 6 feet, 10 feet, 10 yards, make sure your doing this correct, then move on. I would like to hear, your Bow, Rest, bow specs, draw and arrow spine, tip weight etc..Time to start over in my opinion - just trying to help


----------



## bjleslie (Aug 28, 2006)

So what happened today?


----------



## Ehunter42 (Mar 3, 2010)

Didn't get a chance to shoot tonight. I'll let you know what I find out tomorrow. 

rraming, I'm fairly new to the forum, but I have been shooting bows for over 20 years. I paper tune at 6 feet, then again at 10 feet. Then back at 10 yards. Anything beyond 10 yards, and the results are meaningless to me. The fletching takes over by then. Paper is level with my shooting arm/bow. I'm shooting a 2011 Firecat, 28 1/2 in. [email protected] pounds. Bow IBO is 335. Cams are timed, and tiller is even. Shooting a 398 gr. arrow at 298 fps. Total arrow length is 30 3/4 inch with 100 gr. broadhead. 340 spine. Trophy Taker full containment drop away rest. After paper tuning, I walk back tune to get perfect centershot adjustment. I do that from 20-60 yards. Then I horizontal line tune to make sure the nock is positioned perfectly. I do that with 6 arrows. Then take 3 of them, switch to broadheads, spin test them, then start adjusting for broadhead flight. I did drop the draw weight down to 60 pounds to make sure I wasn't underspined. Got the same results. I shot this same arrow set up on my last bow, a 2009 Firecat, set up exactly the same as this one. Same rest, sights, timing, tiller, everything identical. Was within 2 fps of this speed as well. Never had a problem at all. That's what has me so confused. Tomorrow when I get to shoot, I'll know more hopefully.


----------



## sniperjim (Aug 28, 2010)

PM me and we will talk in real time. My instinct is to say that 2 1/5 is over kill but there are more things to take into consideration. PM ME I would like to chat with you over the phone.


----------



## sniperjim (Aug 28, 2010)

Ehunter42 said:


> sniperjim, adding a heavier head is just going to make the FOC even greater. I've always been told that there is no such things as too high of an FOC. I have seen some guys on here with an FOC over what I'm shooting, and they say it works just fine.
> 
> I shot again last night, and still couldn't figure out what the heck is causing my problem, so last night I decided to start over. Stripped the bow down to bare, then started putting everything back on it, double checking everything as I went. Should be able to go shoot it tonight, and see what happens. I know stripping the bow is overkill, but it was time ot start over for me. Thanks again too all who replied!


More weight in front means when you finger balance an arrow the heavier end is is the front.


----------



## completepassthru (Feb 3, 2008)

Why are you shooting such a long arrow? You would be better off cutting off at least 2in. of your arrow preferably 3-3.5in. of arrow. Tune your bow with FP's and then move your sights to match broadheads. I bet you will see improvement. At the very least cut off some of your arrow length. There is no need in shooting a 30.75in arrow. If you cut them down you will stiffen them up a good bit.


----------



## rraming (Aug 5, 2006)

Ehunter42 - maybe your strings are just going through original stretch, did you get the bow and do all this right away? I read you had paper tuned well and then later it changed which leads me to believe string stretch. I know you paper tuned and got good holes but I personally never had good luck with drop aways on 32" bows (this is most likely just me though). Do you think it could be string stretch? 
Can someone run his specs through OT2 and see if it all works with that arrow and length?


----------



## Ehunter42 (Mar 3, 2010)

I think my last post vanished, so I'll shorten it a bit on this attempt.lol

rraming, I put about 2-300 arrows through this bow before I started tuning it. Haven't had any peep rotation since shot #1. Strings are BCY Trophy material. That kinda leads me to believe that it's not string stretch. The bow I'm shooting is a new model of the last bow I had. 2009 vs. 2011. ATA is 1/4 different. The drop away worked very well on the old bow, so I figured it would work just as well on this one. Paper tuning leads me to believe it does. 

Been windy as heck, and a bit chilly here, so I haven't gotten to shoot today. Looks like it'll be a few days before things setle down and I get to shoot. I'll post the results when I get a chance to shoot. 

Once again, thanks to all who have helped! Great to have a group of guys that are willing to help each other like this!


----------



## rraming (Aug 5, 2006)

just trying to cover all the bases


----------



## rraming (Aug 5, 2006)

I ran your number through OT2 - says your weak spine and FOC is 14.some% - your ideal spine is .3166 with that outsert and arrow length 30" - couldn't find your arrows in database so I used Nano's (350). Go with a 300 spine


----------



## Ehunter42 (Mar 3, 2010)

Well, not sure what was causing my problems, but after setting the bow up again, paper, rest and nock tuning, then walk back tuning, I'm hitting good out to 70 yards with both FP and BH. 

rraming, I'm shooting Victory Armour Piercing arrows. I added pin nocks to them to bring down the FOC a little. Now sitting at 16%. Everything is shooting fine for me now. Maybe the pin nocks stiffened the arrow up a little too. 

Thanks to everyone for their input.


----------



## harley (May 20, 2006)

What fletching are you useing? Most fixed blade heads require more stabilization at the rear to controll them. The bigger the airplane,the bigger the tail. I only use a 5" helical and they fly like bullets and hit like field points. You may sacrifice some speed. I know mine tear left with 2" vanes no matter what I do.


----------



## Ehunter42 (Mar 3, 2010)

Shooting a 2 in Quick Spin vane. Blazers were enough to stabilize it on my old bow, so I figured the little bit more the QS would give would be beneficial. It's shooting like a champ now, so looks like whatever was causing the problem is fixed. It must have been something in the tuning just slightly out of whack.


----------



## jim46ok (Oct 9, 2008)

Ehunter42 said:


> Shooting a 2 in Quick Spin vane. Blazers were enough to stabilize it on my old bow, so I figured the little bit more the QS would give would be beneficial. It's shooting like a champ now, so looks like whatever was causing the problem is fixed. It must have been something in the tuning just slightly out of whack.


Yup. Something was slightly out of whack. But you/we CANNOT correct problems evident out at 40, 50, 60, 70 yds by looking at paper out just a few feet...guess you found that out. Glad you got it!


----------

