# US Target Nationals



## Bob Furman (May 16, 2012)

Anyone here planning on attending the US Target Nationals in Hamilton, OH?


Bob Furman
Phoenix,AZ


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## Matt Z (Jul 22, 2003)

Yep! Being that it's an hour away and I've never attended one, I can't afford not to do so. Really looking forward to it!


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## Bob Furman (May 16, 2012)

I'm still debating if I can make it or not. Living in Phoenix, I have allot more costs on getting there and taking off work too. Living there which one of the hotels would you recommend?

http://www2.teamusa.org/USA-Archery...~/media/858E509EC12E430BA6F2A000E0695454.ashx


Do you have a room to rent? 


Bob Furman
Phoenix, AZ


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## red_elan10 (Apr 23, 2008)

Updated hotel list was posted this morning at this page: http://www2.teamusa.org/USA-Archery...-Championships-and-Easton-JOAD-Nationals.aspx


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## Bob Furman (May 16, 2012)

red_elan10 said:


> Updated hotel list was posted this morning at this page: http://www2.teamusa.org/USA-Archery...-Championships-and-Easton-JOAD-Nationals.aspx


Thanks Teresa, but I posted the other link because hotel information link was not working.


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## red_elan10 (Apr 23, 2008)

Thanks Bob! I had just posted that document - it's now visible at that link. It sometimes takes a few minutes. Sorry for the confusion.


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## lksseven (Mar 21, 2010)

I'm going.


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## ksarcher (May 22, 2002)

I do not recall the reasons leading to the current schedule format. It was much easier to justify the cost of travel to a National event if it offered a full week of shooting. I'm sure there was some logic applied to the decision but when USA Archery is concerned Logic may been avoided.. Just my opinion folks!!! I continue to pay my dues only because of my Son, Ian. Hopefully he will start to practice more and we can travel together. He has natural archery skills but as most 14 year old Kids their interest are spread over too subjects practicing archery is low on the list.

Stan


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

I'll be bringing my wife and daughter and at least one student. Possibly more if I can talk them into riding up with us.

We'll be camping at Hueston woods state park. Spending $350 on a hotel room for the week just doesn't make any sense to me when we can all camp for less than $100 and use the rest to pay for gas (actually, diesel). If we do it just right, the entire week won't even cost us $350! At 47 mpg, my Golf TDI should get us all there and back for less than $150 in fuel. Gotta love that German engineering!


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## Jim C (Oct 15, 2002)

I will be there given its in my neck of the woods but not shooting. Too many kids to look after. I wish the JOAD event was a FITA like the adults. I am not a fan of the the bowmen or cubs being limited to their longest possible distance (same with Girls in Junior and Cadet) since it favors kids (especially bowman and cub) who have had an early growth spurt I also hope that there is some sanity with the BB shooters-shooting the 6 ring target at 50M is not sound thinking. (I wonder how many average recurve archers that will drive away too)


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## Lindy (Nov 7, 2008)

My wife and I will be there. There are a number of things to do in and around Hamiltion when you are there. Before or after the tournament here are just three things.

•	Kings Island is off I-71 exits 24 and 25 0n Kings Island Drive. This is a family entertainment park. Go to www.visitkingsisland.com for more information. This park is approximately 18 miles from the center of Hamilton.
•	The Beach Waterpark is off I-71 exit 25A at Waterpark Dr. The park offers slides, inner tube rides etc. Go to www.thebeachwaterpark.com for more information. This park is approximately 18 miles from the center of Hamilton.
•	Governor Bebb Preserve and Pioneer Village. The Governor Bebb Preserve is 264 acres of hardwood forest. The preserve features nature trails, rustic camping, picnic area etc. For more information go to http://www.gettothebc.com/listings/Governor-Bebb-Preserve-and-Pioneer-Village/540/. The preserve is approximately 15 miles from the center of Hamilton


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## olympics84 (Nov 5, 2004)

41st year in a row...


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Glenn, that's awesome. Hope I get to see you there.

John


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## midwayarcherywi (Sep 24, 2006)

olympics84 said:


> 41st year in a row...


Wow. I wonder what the record is. See you there Glenn

Gabe


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## Matt Z (Jul 22, 2003)

olympics84 said:


> 41st year in a row...


Wow! That's impressive Glenn! Going to Regionals again this year?


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## BobCo19-65 (Sep 4, 2009)

I'm going! First one for me.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Okay, let me make sure I have a couple things right...

1) $150 registration fee for JOAD archers? Seriously? Same as an adult?

2) Adult (Senior) Male and Female recurve archers will all be shooting the 6-ring 80 cm. faces at 50 meters? Seriously? 

The 80 cm face at 50M is actually a slight degree of difficulty HARDER than the 122 at 70M. And there were plenty of 5's or worse FROM THE TOP 16 ARCHERS AT THE OLYMPIC TRIALS when the wind was blowing.

If that's the case (with the targets), we can expect to see a fair number of "M's" recorded, esp. if it's windy at all... Dumb move IMO. If an archer pays $150 to enter the event, they should at least have a choice to use a full 10-ring face whenever they choose. I understand it makes it more difficult on the event organizers, but this format (and the $150 fee for young archers) is a great way to scare potential archers off... So much for growing the sport...

John


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## Bob Furman (May 16, 2012)

olympics84 said:


> 41st year in a row...


Hey Glenn,

I recall you from when I shot the Nationals in Oxford, Ohio at Miami University. Recall those days? What a party town that was 


Bob Furman


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## knotdodger (Oct 2, 2005)

Ouch, 80cm only 6 ring to gold at 50m. I don't shoot that well yet. That is a bummer.
For me anyway. I mainly shoot 2 or 3 Fita's a year. Was thinking
of going because it is fairly close, I live in Michigan. Between fighting
off the boss at work for time off and no Five or under ring for me......


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## knotdodger (Oct 2, 2005)

150.00 bucks too! Sheww. Thats a decent start on some new limbs.. hehe


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## mholz (Sep 7, 2005)

Is that 80cm 6 ring at 50m for barebow too? Yikes!


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## midwayarcherywi (Sep 24, 2006)

Anybody have an idea who has shot the most Outdoor Target Nationals consecutively? 41 for Glenn sounds mighty impressive to me. Is it the most?


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## olympics84 (Nov 5, 2004)

Gabe,

Ed Martin has me by a few years. I'll find out how many at the tournament.

I really wish they would get back to nationals being a family friendly event. It was fun getting together with friends from all over the country, spending the entire week together playing bows and arrows. Now they've cut the shooting time in half, put it in a location that we only see each other on the archery field and of course increased the fees. I think the kids shooting one distance is foolish and will discourage participation. This is the one major event of the year that should be for the membership but it feels like the powers that be have forgotten this.

ok, I'm off my soapbox.

Rob, you could shoot closer to home the weekend before and come and see us at the Michigan State Games in Rockford.

Matt, I just arranged my work schedule so I can go to the Regionals. That reminds me I need to get my registration in.


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## knotdodger (Oct 2, 2005)

Glenn, 
I have registered the daughter and I for the State games. Was there last year also. 
That was my first year shooting oly. recurve and at fita events. I am very hooked for sure.
I don't shoot that well yet, but I had a blast. I registered the two of us for the SAM outdoor
Fita too. I have been looking forward to going to those events since last year.....hehe .
Oh, and I don't want to miss the fall classic either..
Just wish there was another senior recurve in my class. But that is fine, I just want a place
on the shooting line. 
Just call me a participating parent!

Rob B.


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## lmmarcher (Nov 16, 2008)

This will be Numbr 45 in a row for Ed Marten


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

> This is the one major event of the year that should be for the membership but it feels like the powers that be have forgotten this.


Frankly, the "powers that be" forgot about the regular members a while ago. 

IMO, there should be the NAA - that caters to members, and USArchery that concerns itself with Olympic games and international teams.

I don't think (at least it hasn't been proven yet) that there is room in a single organization for both concerns.

John


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## Matt Z (Jul 22, 2003)

limbwalker said:


> Frankly, the "powers that be" forgot about the regular members a while ago.


I'm hoping the Mary Emmons, in the new Outreach Director position, can help promote and support grass roots archery.


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## Beastmaster (Jan 20, 2009)

If I understand the new org chart correctly (given to me verbally), Mary has Diane Watson reporting to her.

This, frankly, should be reversed. Grassroots efforts should feed into JOAD. Not JOAD feeding into grassroots. 

Until I see an actual printed org chart, I still treat it as hearsay. 

-Steve


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## gairsz (Mar 6, 2008)

we were planning on going, but are probably going to pull out. Matt is a first year junior and will not be able to shoot the JOAD tournament without having to skip the open. I can't think of any good reason to fly all the way to ohio just to shoot JOAD nationals when most of the best junior shooters, RA's, will be shooting the open. The trials are over for Matt, usaa is not supporting the kids any more, $150 is a perfect example, and all of the registration fees go to prize money for the top senor shooters. Matt isn't good enough to win any money so this trip is just going to be way to costly without any justifiable benefit. Why does he need a national ranking? He doesn't have one from last year because of USAA politics, so what is different this year. My son saying, "I want to go", isn't good enough any more. When we started in archery nationals were in Colorado. It was a big event with the climax the big open shoot off. Now with the compound shooters shooting 50 meters cadets all the way to masters shoot the same distance. The open could have included so many more shooters. I would have been awesome. Instead the kids were pushed out both on the compound side as well as recurve. Sad. But we all pay the same amount of money while the seniors are the only ones that can win prize money. Interesting, don't you think?

The parents of youth shooters actually pay more money. The kids can't fly by themselves, rent a car or a hotel. Adults pay for one airline ticket, can share a rental car and a room. It actually costs parents twice as much to have their kits compete. Registration should be free for the youth and the pros should pay way more. IMHO

John, you don't fly all over the country competing and you did very well at the trials. I think we should follow your lead for awhile. Chasing the RA program around fighting for a national ranking has become why to costly. I am pretty sure that is by design. Airline tickets, hotel, and rental car will probably run around $1500, plus the $150 registration fee. There are plenty of shoots locally that are just as fun and are about $25.

With all this interest in archery from the Hollywood movies, archery is taking off. I hope the costs to compete don't drive most of the people away.

We already bought our plane tickets, so we may still go, unless I can use those tickets for another shoot down the road.

Gary


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

> John, you don't fly all over the country competing and you did very well at the trials. I think we should follow your lead for awhile. Chasing the RA program around fighting for a national ranking has become why to costly.


Gary, there's a few logical reasons I don't travel to many events anymore. #1 - I know what I'm capable of and I don't feel the need to spend money to prove it. #2 - I met my goal in 2004 - which was to make the 2005 USAT. I am confident I could make USAT any year I want if I'm willing to spend the money to travel, but exactly what would be the point? #3- There are still some archery goals I can reach right here in my home state of Texas (like chasing Vic, Staten and Guy's state records) #4 - I actually enjoy playing golf more than shooting archery, and I can win prize money and find good competition within 20 miles of my house, 4-5 days/week. 

I see some parents spending tens of thousands of dollars to travel with their kids all over the country, or to send them to international tournaments. I often wonder, "to what end?" 

I've always been pretty pragmatic by necessity. Until I proved to myself that I could shoot competitive scores to make USAT and an international team, I was content to stay home, practice and learn more, and get better. 

Having said all that, Nationals is something everyone should do, at least once. And everyone has different amounts of expendible income, so it's really up to them to decide if it's worth it or not.

Not to knock Ohio at all (I think it's a logical location for a National event) but if families are using the week as an annual family vacation, then why not have it somewhere really cool instead? Colorado Springs wasn't close to anyone, but at least it was worth traveling to! If I'm going to load up the family and spend $1000 or more in a week, let's go to the beach, or Washington D.C., or somewhere my family can really look forward to going all year.

John


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## midwayarcherywi (Sep 24, 2006)

Oh man, I just nutted a 5 iron to 15 feet. What was the question again? Oh yeah, Nationals. I'll pay my $150, have fun and try to shoot some 10s.


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## ArtV (Jan 29, 2008)

I had no idea it cost $150 to shoot. Now that is pricey pricey. Frankly, I don't know why anyone would spend that just to shoot a tournament. Unless of course they are an elite shooter, but for the average shooter...$150 for the chance to get a ribbon or little medal. Nah, If it was next door I would pay that price to shoot. Heck you can spend that much total in 3-D shoots and win 5 to 8 times that amount in prize money. Heck, the IBO and ASA charges for what division you are in...pro's pay Pro's level entry fees,,,all the rest pay a much lower amount and the kids are cheap.


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## TER (Jul 5, 2003)

$150 is a significant amount to charge, but this tournament is more than just a chance to win a ribbon or little medal. It's a chance to compete in the US National Championships with some of the best archers in the world. I'm not saying $150 is a fair fee; but I am saying shooting in such a prestigious tournament with great archers is a pretty cool experience.


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## Matt Z (Jul 22, 2003)

Every year I read the same issues with Nationals no matter the format, location or cost. We know USAA staff read this board and do not comment (for good reason imo). So let's hear it, what is the "perfect storm" for Nationals. Plant seeds for the future and let them know our thoughts.

Location - Although I do think a midwest location does help the majority of the membership with travel expenses, I do agree with John (limbwalker) on the attraction to a family friendly location. Make it a sought after venue rather than a club that steps up to host. Since Nationals is so close to where I live, I'm forgoing a larger family vacation to participate as I have only so many vacation days. I hope I'll do more in the future but the family will always come first as a casual shooter.

Participation - What's the answer? Having the top shooter participate in their own class, a "pro" division if you will? I was always under the impression is you shoot against score and not others. Shoot your best and see where you end up.

Format - I've always assumed USAA was somewhat at the mercy of WAF and the standard formatting they've established? I do agree that the 5 ring 80cm target is risky, but I'm also going to assume that it's an option and not required based on the skill of the archer.

Cost - What has been the cost of years past? The number of $130 sticks in my head, but I don't know. What's acceptable for the value of venue?

I would love to see a report of past Nationals based on cost/participation numbers/location to see if there is some sort of pattern. The only Nationals venue I've EVER heard anyone talk about in good standing was when they were held at Miami (OH) University and the big reason for that was the school opened the dorm rooms where archers could continue the camaraderie together after shooting...


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## Jim C (Oct 15, 2002)

limbwalker said:


> Okay, let me make sure I have a couple things right...
> 
> 1) $150 registration fee for JOAD archers? Seriously? Same as an adult?
> 
> ...


agreed-in 99 the NAA sprung the individual faces on us at 30 without any advance warning and after the contracts had been signed (yes sports fans an entry application is a legal contract). I filed a protest as did several other archers. Some idiot claimed that they could do whatever they want. TIm Strickland was on the jury, had coached me and I told him of the fact that this was upsetting to us non world class archers whose main goal at nationals was to shoot a PB. 90% of us have no illusions about getting a medal. Well I was told the NAA could do what it wanted and FITA required it--A LIE. So I told the powers that be I was going to see the presiding judge at the Southern District of Ohio and get a TRO and an injunction shutting down the tournament for breach of contract, violation of the AA protection act and several other things I could think of. at that point someone figured out I was series and explained that the NAA had not ordered enough 10 ring 80CM targets

one elite shooter noted that the nationals should cater to the membership-world trials, olympic trials etc caters to the elite.


The 80CM six ring target is going to be used-as of now-for Bare Bow archers-not a good move IMHO. and it will cause lots of even 1200 level archers to have misses at 50. I watched a near 1300 level archer practice at my house in the same wind we will get at Joyce Park and he had misses. Same with at top 15 lady archer. 

BTW John kids are all shooting the big target if they are recurves-its only kid compound archers shooting the spots

the whole idea for this 50 M stuff is to shoot 6 arrow ends so the JOADS can shoot along side the adults because the JOADs have to shoot 6 arrow ends in their single distance event

I have a much better idea-go back to what we had 2 decades ago--four days, two full FITAS, 80CM full targets and three arrow ends at the short distances


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## midwayarcherywi (Sep 24, 2006)

ArtV said:


> I had no idea it cost $150 to shoot. Now that is pricey pricey. Frankly, I don't know why anyone would spend that just to shoot a tournament. Unless of course they are an elite shooter, but for the average shooter...$150 for the chance to get a ribbon or little medal. Nah, If it was next door I would pay that price to shoot. Heck you can spend that much total in 3-D shoots and win 5 to 8 times that amount in prize money. Heck, the IBO and ASA charges for what division you are in...pro's pay Pro's level entry fees,,,all the rest pay a much lower amount and the kids are cheap.



Hmmm. I'm not an elite shooter and I'll pay my $150 to shoot. No, I'm not rich either. It's a week of entertainment and fun. Think about it in that context and you can make the argument it is cheap. It is certainly the cheapest part of the trip for me!

C'mon folks, catch the spirit of the event and have some fun, meet your archery friends, maybe even tip a couple back with them after the days shooting is complete. It's all good.


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## BowMakr (Sep 13, 2009)

I think 150 is reasonable for a big tournament. I certainly will spend more than that for travel expenses. I'm not so pleased about spending 150 for a club shoot, which is all that nationals really is anymore. It went from a double FITA to a single, and this year they've dropped the T shirts and more importantly, they eliminated the banquet. It's becoming less significant each year lately. In my opinion, the Arizona Cup is now more of a "big tournament" than nationals. How long will it be before it becomes a multi-site shoot like indoor nationals?


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## Jim C (Oct 15, 2002)

midwayarcherywi said:


> Hmmm. I'm not an elite shooter and I'll pay my $150 to shoot. No, I'm not rich either. It's a week of entertainment and fun. Think about it in that context and you can make the argument it is cheap. It is certainly the cheapest part of the trip for me!
> 
> C'mon folks, catch the spirit of the event and have some fun, meet your archery friends, maybe even tip a couple back with them after the days shooting is complete. It's all good.




Hate to break the news but if you have won the US 50+ title you are an ELITE archer Gabe!!


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## lksseven (Mar 21, 2010)

Jim C said:


> Hate to break the news but if you have won the US 50+ title you are an ELITE archer Gabe!!


Agree!


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## ArtV (Jan 29, 2008)

limbwalker said:


> Frankly, the "powers that be" forgot about the regular members a while ago.
> 
> IMO, there should be the NAA - that caters to members, and USArchery that concerns itself with Olympic games and international teams.
> 
> ...


Wouldn't this increase the cost of doing business, which may increase membership dues and all the other sundry cost that may be shared by having one org.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

All you guys that don't mind paying the $150, I think that's great. But you're adults.

Come tell my parents of JOAD archers that you think $150 is reasonable, and that part of the entry fee money for thier child will be spent to pay prize money for the elite archers - some of them who traveled there (at least the recurvers) for free.

Yea, freakin' brilliant. 

I have at least two JOAD parents that literally gasped when I told them nationals cost $150 to register.

Way to grow the sport.

John


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## lksseven (Mar 21, 2010)

John,

I agree. $150 for kids is indefensible. 

There's way too much focus by the execs on the high profile side of things, at the expense of the rank and file. It's not right, and it's not longterm smart, either.

I also agree with Gabe in seeing it as an opportunity for a few days to compete and share in the camaraderie of others who share the same interest/pursuit. I'm envious of the past venue at U of Miami-Ohio, with so many being able to stay in the dorms for the week and really get to visit with the others. I wish I had started young enough to where I was coming to my 41st consecutive Nats, like Glenn. But, better late than never!


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

I was talking to my JOAD parents at practice last night, and yes, there should be a seperate fee for JOAD/Collegiate/Adult. One $150 registration fee for everyone is absolutely ridiculous. What other organization does this for their events? 

So, let's assume a parent wants to go shoot Nationals with two of their children. That's not an uncommon scenario, or at least - it shouldn't be uncommon. But hey, that's $450 right off the top! Are you kidding me?

I would have loved to hear the discussion that led to this decision.


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## Beastmaster (Jan 20, 2009)

Using this as a comparison - JOAD aged children pay 75 dollars for Indoor Nationals....the same as an adult. If the JOAD is competing in the JOAD Indoor Nationals as well, that's an additional 35 dollars (that is technically a different event but is still part of the tournament).

So, if a JOAD aged person is wanting to compete in both, they pay more than an adult would.


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## rharper (Apr 30, 2012)

Man, I better get a better job to send my 3 boys to a tourny like this.


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## pilotmill (Dec 10, 2008)

I probably would have felt better paying that amount if I knew the kids were going to benefit with a low fee and a fun shoot for them.


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## montigre (Oct 13, 2008)

I'm going....this will be my first time, so I can use all of the insider information I can get!!. Help a Field shooter get her feet wet on the other side of the fence....


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## Paula (Sep 8, 2009)

www.ohiotraveler.com should have some suggestions for things to do other than archery while you are here.I believe the Beach Waterpark has gone under,,,it was not open over Memorial Day when we drove by.I can see were the 6 ring 80cm target will be difficult for many of us who are far from advanced archers.I wish people at the top had given this a little more thought.After all this should be a tournement for ALL the members.


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## Lindy (Nov 7, 2008)

More things to do other than archery. Paula is right. The Beach Water Park is closed.
•	Cincinnati Zoo and Botanical Garden is reached via I-75 exit 6. Go to www.cincinnatizoo.org for more information. The zoo is approximately 26 miles from the center of Hamilton.
•	Cincinnati Museum of Natural History and Science is on the grounds of Cincinnati Museum Center at Union Terminal at 1301 Western Ave. Go to http://www.cincymuseum.org/sciencemuseum for more information. The museum is approximately 28 miles from the center of Hamilton. 
•	National Museum of the United States Air Force. Arguably the largest aircraft museum in the nation. This museum is located in Dayton, Ohio. For more information go to www.nationalmuseum.af.mil/. The museum is approximately 40 miles from the center of Hamilton.

Regards,


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## lastickbow (Nov 13, 2007)

John,stayed at Hueston Woods State Park for many years when the Nationals and Olympic trials were in Oxford but Glenn steered us to a much closer campground called Winton Woods Campground just 15 minutes south of Hamilton. We are staying there for about $35.00 a night.

Terry


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## Jim C (Oct 15, 2002)

Paula said:


> www.ohiotraveler.com should have some suggestions for things to do other than archery while you are here.I believe the Beach Waterpark has gone under,,,it was not open over Memorial Day when we drove by.I can see were the 6 ring 80cm target will be difficult for many of us who are far from advanced archers.I wish people at the top had given this a little more thought.After all this should be a tournement for ALL the members.




1) I live a mile from the Beach. Its dead-Kings Island's water park killed it. 

2) it appears that all that matters these days is getting olympic gold medals not making a shoot fun for the Paulas of the country. We already have several USAT shoots for the 1300 shooters. 

3) I think the single distance for the kids is idiotic-especially at the cub and cadet level where there are huge disparities in size and this single distance benefits bigger kids immensely


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Jim, your points 2 and 3 are well taken. But then, too few who make the decisions these days have your experience as a parent or as a JOAD coach. I've met too many recently who are making decisions in what I call "la-la" land, and not reality.

I can see a point where we need a members-focused organization once again. Let the USOC run the selection shoots and international teams.

John


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## Lindy (Nov 7, 2008)

Butler County (encompasses Hamilton) has been sending emails to interested parties on activities within the county (June activities). Prominently noted is the Natioanal Archery Tournament. Other activities are also listed. 
This is the email address that forwarded the information. [[email protected]]


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## montigre (Oct 13, 2008)

Will there be a shaded seating area provided for the archers? What's the parking like? Will we have to hike our equipment very far to get to the shooting lines? What about apre round meet and greets? Let a noob in on what to expect....pleeeez ;-)


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## lksseven (Mar 21, 2010)

https://maps.google.com/maps?ie=UTF...OXg2AWWhtHqAg&oi=local_result&ved=0CAkQ_BIwAw

It's a trek from the majority of the parking (mostly on the side of the road that runs to the left of, and in front of, Joyce Park in the map link above) to the archers' area. I think Joyce is about 5 football fields wide, so it's bigger than it looks on the map (to me anyway) .

If I'm not remembering that stuff correctly, someone please correct me.


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## Archer 4 Life (Oct 27, 2008)

Seems to me the USAT qualifier series counts for a little more than nationals nowadays, and are still cheaper entry fees by a little bit. I can shoot with the same "elite, world's best archers" at these shoots for less and still get a high quality tournament.

I'll be attending, but I'm not blinded by USA Archery hyping the tournament up as usual like a Hollywood film.


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## Lindy (Nov 7, 2008)

Montigre,

I believe Iksseven is right. 

From my experience at Hamilton two years ago. Yes there is cover for the archers. If you have friends etc. that are attending but not shooting they should bring a canopy or umbrella. Non archers will not be allowed to sit under the cover for archers. It is a hike from the parking to the archery field i.e. about 150 to 200 yards depending on where you park and your target assignment. Yes the field is wide but I don't think the majority of the archers will be walking farther than 150 yards to 200 yards from the shooting positions.
If you are at Hamilton the day before and participate in the practice rounds you can get acquainted with the field layout, electronic scoring etc.


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## montigre (Oct 13, 2008)

Lindy said:


> Montigre,
> I believe Iksseven is right. From my experience at Hamilton two years ago. Yes there is cover for the archers. If you have friends etc. that are attending but not shooting they should bring a canopy or umbrella. Non archers will not be allowed to sit under the cover for archers. It is a hike from the parking to the archery field i.e. about 150 to 200 yards depending on where you park and your target assignment. Yes the field is wide but I don't think the majority of the archers will be walking farther than 150 yards to 200 yards from the shooting positions. If you are at Hamilton the day before and participate in the practice rounds you can get acquainted with the field layout, electronic scoring etc.


That's great news... Yes, I plan to arrive the day before so I can get a feel for the area, shoot a couple of ends to make sure nothing shifted during the drive and get my equipment checked over. 200 yards or so really is not that bad and to hear there's cover for the archers means I may be able to leave the mini shelter in the car. Now about this electronic scoring...does that mean we don't have to keep a paper record? Never experienced that one before either...haha

Iksseven, thanks for providing the map with layout of the field--that was most helpful!!


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## Lindy (Nov 7, 2008)

The first time I used the electronic scoring was two years ago in Hamilton. My guess is that they will use the same system this year. If they do it will mean NO paper. A few of us not familiar with the system took a few minutes to educate ourselves before the official scoring started.


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## dal.las12 (Apr 22, 2011)

Originally, I was going to post a new thread entitled “Reasons to send your kid to Target Nationals” but I thought too many people might take offense or just not participate in the thread thinking it was sarcasm.

But based on all of the negativity I’ve been reading regarding about the target national championships …… I guess I have my answer to my above question……
Transportation X dollars
Lodging and food Y dollars
equipment Z dollars
etc.
Entry Fee $150
Price of entering the Target Nationals……. Not priceless!

But for us its priceless to attend nationals spending time with family and other good folks.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Interesting to discover that the cost to register for a qualifying spot for the U.S. Open golf tournament is the same as that for a bowman JOAD to shoot nationals.

Purse for the U.S. open is over 7 million dollars.


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## Matt Z (Jul 22, 2003)

You mean for the same money you can shoot with some of the worlds best archers for a week or not set foot any where near that golf course as a competitor with the world's best golfers?


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## montigre (Oct 13, 2008)

Yes, I also thought the entry was a bit pricy, but as an individual shooter, to be able to toe the line and maybe shoot the breeze with some of the best shooters in the world at a venue that's relatively close to my home (only a 7 1/2 hr drive), it's well worth the cost. 

However, if the entry fee increases much more in the future, I will also have to seriously look at the cost versus benefit factor. But for 2012, I'm 100% there!! :wink:


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Matt Z said:


> You mean for the same money you can shoot with some of the worlds best archers for a week or not set foot any where near that golf course as a competitor with the world's best golfers?


Guess that's one way to look at it. Only, I think we all know the level of competition is, oh, just a tad higher at the U.S. open, now don't we... 

Let's not kid ourselves. For all but a few archers, winning Nationals is not that big of a deal when there are only a handful of archers in each division. There's a reason I've never bothered to shoot Nationals. I can compete with the best archers in the U.S. in a weekend event, closer to home, at less than half the cost. So, really, what's the difference if you win the AZ Cup, the Texas Shootout, or Nationals? They're all the same archers.

John


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## Serious Fun (May 12, 2003)

I suggest that everyone use a paper scorecard and confirm which format is official.


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## Serious Fun (May 12, 2003)

I love having choices. From world ranking with international competitors to a quick USAT qualifier to a national championship with full adult and youth offerings. Then there is indoors, Vegas, and field. Diversity. One size does not fit all.


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## Lindy (Nov 7, 2008)

I'm not a golfer but I think comparing the revenue and sales of archery to the golf is an apples and oranges comparision. Golf has billions in product sales. The major TV net works have committed hundereds of millions to sponser (broadcast) major golf tournaments. Golf has HUGE $$$$. Archery, not so much.
I don't know maybe it does cost a pro $150 to sign up for a major golf tournament but I seriously doubt that anyone can show up and play. 

Anyway this seems a little bit off topic. I'm looking forward to shooting in Hamilton.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

I'm only comparing entry fees. You can pay $150 for a chance to -MAYBE- win back most of your travel expenses or say you shot with some of the "best in the world" or claim a national championship when only 5-10 people showed up...

Or,

You can pay $150 to enter a qualifying event that is a pathway to one of the most prestigious sporting events in the world, and the opportunity to earn enough money to retire on.

I don't know if I'm more surprised that JOAD kids are expected to pay $150 for Nationals (then expected to shoot for 5 straight days, which I also think is ridiculous for kids to do) or that the entry fee for the U.S. Open golf qualifiers are only $150. Maybe just a little of both.

We just completed our Texas State JOAD Outdoor event, and I can tell you that after two days of shooting, those kids were done. Esp. the bowman and cubs. Some of the cadets could have kept going, and most of the juniors, but please, after two days, kids under 15 are ready for something else. I can see the JOAD divisions that will lead to spots on Jr. USAT (cadet and juniors) shooting for four days. They should be able to do that if they are serious about earning a national title or spot on Jr. USAT. But the cubs and bowmen shouldn't have to shoot for more than 3 tops. 

John


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## midwayarcherywi (Sep 24, 2006)

I've got a good buddy who has played in 2 US Opens through the qualifying process. He didn't make the cut at either event. $150 was the tip of the iceberg. He spent many multiples of that to participate. Most 4 spotters at PGA events have as much chance of beating the eventual winner as I have of beating Brady. The entry fees at PGA qualifiers are about keeping the 10 handicaps off the course. The number of qualifiers who've made a US Open cut are rare indeed. And for those guys, like archers, it is much more than the money.


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## lksseven (Mar 21, 2010)

John,

Just an historical comment (with a touch of relevance - or leavening - I hope): the Belmont race in which Secretariat made immortal history was a field of only 5 horses. So while I completely agree with your point that higher number of participants usually insinuates a fair degree of excellence represented, I would also contend that there are times when that excellence exists without a cast of many, and also that those who show up (as you've said many many times) deserve and earn whatever they win on that field, on that day - winning an openly contested event is an accomplishment, no matter who "doesn't" show up.).

From my limited experience/observation, Nationals and the National Senior Olympics are just about the only outdoor venues where Masters division competitors get more than just a few entries in each division, so that ('going where the most fish are') might be one reason for older archers to point toward those "National in the title' events. For open division/senior archers (no age limitation) your point is well taken.


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## Beastmaster (Jan 20, 2009)

A few thoughts I'd like to note down here. 

1) What is our role as coaches and instructors to kids that are Bowmen/Cub age? If I take the approach that I use when I coached baseball and volleyball - my job is to get the student to the next level, whatever that next level is. 

So, for outdoor, wouldn't it behoove us to have the kids be able to shoot a full FITA in two days, and train them to do that over time? Then, have them train to do a full one day FITA? Wouldn't that be a good set of long term goals for kids that intend to compete?

2) If I was to make a direct comparison of entry fees between the Pan Am Championships and Outdoor/JOAD Nats, the Pan Am Championships were nearly 1/2 the cost. If I take the other costs of airfare, food, housing, and other travel expenses, Outdoor Nats will cost me more if I exclude uniform costs and passport renewals/etc. that involved international travel and being self funded with USA Archery. 

Do I value Spencer's participation in the Pan Am Championships more than Outdoor Nats? No - they are two different tournaments that have two different goals attached to it. 

And that brings us back to #1 again- what are the goals? 

3) What price is participation worth? 

I can say that Outdoor Nationals gives Spencer the chance to see his archery friends. He's looking forward to seeing his Pan Am teammates. He's looking forward to seeing his bowmen aged friends. And he's looking forward to shooting. 

4) Shooting then being idle: this talking point may be the most contentious. Some want to shoot the whole time because they paid for it. Others will say that the kids need a rest time. This one point may be where no one is fully satisfied. 

Anyhow, it all comes down to this: perceived value. If you as the archer or parent can perceive there is a value in going - then go. 

Value can be forced (keeping your USAT or going for your USAT ranking), or can be self generated. Either way, the price is set. It's up to the individual to see if it's worth going.


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## shootemstraight (Jan 13, 2007)

limbwalker said:


> We just completed our Texas State JOAD Outdoor event, and I can tell you that after two days of shooting, those kids were done. Esp. the bowman and cubs. Some of the cadets could have kept going, and most of the juniors, but please, *after two days, kids under 15 are ready for something else*. I can see the JOAD divisions that will lead to spots on Jr. USAT (cadet and juniors) shooting for four days. They *should *be able to do that *if *they are serious about earning a national title or spot on Jr. USAT. But the cubs and bowmen shouldn't have to shoot for more than 3 tops.


Agreed! Strangely enough, all but the top 4 adults (in each division) are done after 3 days of shooting, but youth are stretched out to 4 days. And, we want kids to have "fun" during the team shoot, but it's SMACK in the MIDDLE of the day?

Are team rounds madatory for youth, but optional for adults? How does the "sign up" proceedure work for the adults? Like, how are teams chosen?


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## Beastmaster (Jan 20, 2009)

shootemstraight said:


> Agreed! Strangely enough, all but the top 4 adults (in each division) are done after 3 days of shooting, but youth are stretched out to 4 days. And, we want kids to have "fun" during the team shoot, but it's SMACK in the MIDDLE of the day?
> 
> Are team rounds madatory for youth, but optional for adults? How does the "sign up" proceedure work for the adults? Like, how are teams chosen?


For the youth - if you're intending on going after the JOAD Grand Champion, then yes, you're going to need to shoot team rounds.

You basically get one point for team rounds. If you don't participate in team rounds, you get 999 points, which basically kills any chance of a shooter getting a medal.

With the youth, teams are chosen based upon their ranking round score. So, if there are 30 kids in a particular division, your team starts off with the shooters in position 1, 15, and 30. The next team is position 2, 14, and 29. So on, so forth.


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## Serious Fun (May 12, 2003)

Having NTC and EJN together is a wonderful time and money saver and helps to bring all together. Families can make one trip together with one hotel stay and one car ride or rental and compete in the National Championship for Masters, Seniors (adults) and Youths. No more having to make a trip just for JOAD Championship and a separate trip for National Target Championship. Families don’t have to make the decision between going to one or the other. Having the events overlap saves even more time and money. This year’s NTC/EJN is a family value.
With so many parts, it’s a challenge for the events staff to say the least. Helping as one can is always the right thing to do. Volunteering helps to minimize entry fees for all by avoiding the need to hire labor.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Bob, do you seriously know families that have kids shooting in the JOAD division and their parents shooting in adult divisions? I'm sure there are a few, but I'm also sure it's very rare. The majority of parents will watch their kids instead of shoot.

But I agree that combining them is good for at least one reason. My JOAD students will have an opportunity to meet the Olympic team members and watch some of our best archers shoot. They are excited about that.

John


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## Beastmaster (Jan 20, 2009)

limbwalker said:


> Bob, do you seriously know families that have kids shooting in the JOAD division and their parents shooting in adult divisions? I'm sure there are a few, but I'm also sure it's very rare. The majority of parents will watch their kids instead of shoot.
> 
> But I agree that combining them is good for at least one reason. My JOAD students will have an opportunity to meet the Olympic team members and watch some of our best archers shoot. They are excited about that.
> 
> John


I know of only 1 family from Arizona that meets what you're talking about - Gary Yamaguchi is shooting masters while Nathan and Karissa are shooting their categories.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

I can't think of any myself. And I know a lot of archery families (including my own - I won't shoot at a JOAD event - it's not fair to my kids). It sounds good, and some may take advantage of this, but it's just not practical. In practice, the greater advantage would be to a family with children shooting in both the JOAD and senior events (like the Millers in years past, or theTraffords, etc.) where the parents can watch all their children shoot at the same event. Hopefully this makes it easier for those families, esp. since they are going to be short on cash that week...


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## TomB (Jan 28, 2003)

limbwalker said:


> I can't think of any myself. And I know a lot of archery families (including my own - I won't shoot at a JOAD event - it's not fair to my kids). It sounds good, and some may take advantage of this, but it's just not practical. In practice, the greater advantage would be to a family with children shooting in both the JOAD and senior events (like the Millers in years past, or theTraffords, etc.) where the parents can watch all their children shoot at the same event. Hopefully this makes it easier for those families, esp. since they are going to be short on cash that week...


John, for many years my chief complaint for target nationals was that the youth field was the "baby sitting" field. While parents shot there would be way too many unsupervised and uncoached kids on the youth field shooting. I hope that is not the case as much now, but I haven't been to target nationals since my JOAD graduated from college.


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## midwayarcherywi (Sep 24, 2006)

I went to Nationals last year with my Cadet aged son. We both had a blast. Sadly, he will not be with me this year. He's fine, but has other commitments which take precedence. 

We both shot at the same time and shot the elimination rounds at the same time. I admit to being distracted during the elimination round when he had a thrilling come from behind win. I sure would have preferred to have been able to watch the whole match. He was so pumped up he was shaking after the win. It was a very cool archery moment for him and me. 

Yeah, there could always be a better way to conduct Nationals. And from where I sit, it continues to evolve.


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## Serious Fun (May 12, 2003)

TomB said:


> John, for many years my chief complaint for target nationals was that the youth field was the "baby sitting" field. While parents shot there would be way too many unsupervised and uncoached kids on the youth field shooting. I hope that is not the case as much now, but I haven't been to target nationals since my JOAD graduated from college.


Hi Tom, I have fallen into the trap of living in the past. My experience of several families of JOADs and parents shooting is from NTC of a 5 to 10 years ago. Certainly it is important to learn from the past, but we need to focus on today and the future. It will be interesting to see the participation profile of the combined events over time and the traits of the contemporary target archery family. That was then, this is now!


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## TomB (Jan 28, 2003)

Serious Fun said:


> Hi Tom, I have fallen into the trap of living in the past. My experience of several families of JOADs and parents shooting is from NTC of a 5 to 10 years ago. Certainly it is important to learn from the past, but we need to focus on today and the future. It will be interesting to see the participation profile of the combined events over time and the traits of the contemporary target archery family. That was then, this is now!


Yes me too Bob. I am looking forward to this year to see if things have changed. I hope so.


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## RecurveDad (Mar 9, 2012)

Is it me or does this press release basically state that nobody on the olympic team will be at nationals?

http://www2.teamusa.org/USA-Archery...ominates-Six-Athletes-to-US-Olympic-Team.aspx


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## Jim C (Oct 15, 2002)

RecurveDad said:


> Is it me or does this press release basically state that nobody on the olympic team will be at nationals?
> 
> http://www2.teamusa.org/USA-Archery...ominates-Six-Athletes-to-US-Olympic-Team.aspx


where are you getting that?


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

That's not unusual, and is especially understandable considering the world cup event in UT in late June. 

IIRC, half of the 2004 Olympic team did not compete at Nationals that year. I know I was at home training, as was Vic and Stephanie. The extra expense was not something I could afford either, considering I needed every last penny for my wife and mom to travel to Athens.

We'll miss them, but I certainly don't expect them. They have more important things on their schedule.

Look out for another "Butch vs. Vic" finish at Nationals though! ha, ha.

John


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## Matt Z (Jul 22, 2003)

I believe they are all attending from what I've heard. This would also be the first time the team could compete with each other, unless there is a team event at the Nor'easter? Granted the competition level wouldn't be the same for the entire bracket but would be cool to see non-the-less.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Both these teams (male and female) have competed with each other multiple times at world cup events, so I don't think being at Nationals is that big of a deal. In fact, it will be the least competitive event they will shoot in for the year.

John


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## RecurveDad (Mar 9, 2012)

Well, it never mentions the Nationals, not even the possibility of them showing, and the last paragraph says:

_"While almost all of the Olympic Team nominees will compete at the Nor'easter USAT Qualifier Series Event next weekend, the next official stop for the archers of Team USA will be the third stage of the Archery World Cup and Final Olympic Qualification Tournament in Ogden, UT June 17-24 (the Final Olympic Qualification Tournament, in which the U.S. women's team will compete, will be held June 21)."_

Oh, and I just checked the event on the US Archery website - the mention of sending off our olympic team is no longer there.

No big deal - whatever they need to do to win, but thank you to the contributors of this thread for teaching me some things


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## Matt Z (Jul 22, 2003)

limbwalker said:


> Both these teams (male and female) have competed with each other multiple times at world cup events, so I don't think being at Nationals is that big of a deal. In fact, it will be the least competitive event they will shoot in for the year.


All the better to work out any bugs and do some testing, imo.


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## red_elan10 (Apr 23, 2008)

The press release communicates that for Team USA archers (representing the U.S. internationally) the next step is the Ogden World Cup, which is before the Nationals. The Nationals serves as the official send-off for the U.S. Olympic and Paralympic Teams and most team members are competing to my personal knowledge. USA Archery is working on some fun stuff for the official send-off - so please do come out and support the Olympic and Paralympic Team members who are there competing.


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## Matt Z (Jul 22, 2003)

Here's a list of the registered archers as of 6/14. Note: all Olympians are listed.

http://www2.teamusa.org/USA-Archery...~/media/6F08851D69274B0A93089EB18441A41D.ashx


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## RecurveDad (Mar 9, 2012)

WOW! Thank you for the info!


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## Bob Furman (May 16, 2012)

Does anyone know where I might get finla standings or regstered shooters from previos Nationals?


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## Beastmaster (Jan 20, 2009)

2011 National Indoor:
http://www2.teamusa.org/USA-Archery/~/media/E65739E305C64FB59D18650DD52E2470.ashx

2011 Easton JOAD Nationals:
http://www2.teamusa.org/USA-Archery/~/media/A9B0F940BE9A4254B5449CF115C3BE1E.ashx

2011 National Outdoor Target Championships:
http://www2.teamusa.org/USA-Archery/~/media/DA3BA7A5C18040C2BFFE2691A5F6EE68.ashx

-Steve


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## Bob Furman (May 16, 2012)

Beastmaster said:


> 2011 National Indoor:
> http://www2.teamusa.org/USA-Archery/~/media/E65739E305C64FB59D18650DD52E2470.ashx
> 
> 2011 Easton JOAD Nationals:
> ...


Steve,

Thanks, do you know if any records were keep when they were still having the Nationals at Miami University in Oxford Ohio?


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## Beastmaster (Jan 20, 2009)

Bob Furman said:


> Steve,
> 
> Thanks, do you know if any records were keep when they were still having the Nationals at Miami University in Oxford Ohio?


Bob,

The records keeping are in somewhat of a shambles right now. The prior person who used to keep the records basically quit updating things as of late 2011. You can look at things here to see if there is anything from that time/era.

-Steve

http://www.usaarcheryrecords.org/index.htm


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

> The prior person who used to keep the records basically quit updating things as of late 2011


Don't you mean the VOLUNTEER who was told by USArchery that they didn't want him to continue to update the records, despite the fact that they have done NOTHING with them since!?! 

This is a don't-get-me-started issue. An archer gets 10 days to submit a record form, but how the he$$ are they supposed to know what the record is!?! We had this happen at our recent state JOAD event, when one of our top Junior male recurve archers set a new U.S. record - or so it would seem based on some rather old information provided by an unpaid volunteer out of the kindness of his own heart. 

Again, another perfect example of "USArchery" being so caught up in medals and re-signing the "best coach in the world" that they can't stay on top of things that matter to the average member.

John


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## gairsz (Mar 6, 2008)

The star fita record for junior male recurve is 315 at 90, 334 at 70, 334 at 50 and 353 at 30, and the total fita 1300 if my memory serves me right. Matt had all of the records when he was a second year cadet, but they have been broken since that time. There are records that Matt set over two years ago that are still not posted since Ron stopped handling them. It is sad. I offered to help and I was told they wanted to keep it in house. I guess they meant they were not going to record records anymore.

Gary


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

> I offered to help and I was told they wanted to keep it in house. I guess they meant they were not going to record records anymore.


Precisely my point. Ron's too nice a guy to ever point this out himself, but I am not. Maintaining a current list of U.S. records is fundamental to an organization that's focused on ALL it's members. Not just the elite chosen few.

Our recent TX State JOAD outdoor championship followed the current year format of a single distance, 144-arrow event. Last year's JOAD Nationals - for an inexplicable and totally avoidable reason - shared the same format, and yet, there are no current records posted for this format. Who knows how many national records have been set since last year's JOAD Nationals that are not available for review.

Ever since I've been a member of the NAA, the records have been a complete mess. Some archers really have nothing else to shoot for, and it is important to them to know what the current national record is. Ours is such a small fringe sport that oftentimes knowing a record is within reach means the difference between 2 or 3 archers entering a division, or none at all.

It's well past time this issue gets resolved. Accomplished young archers should not have to sit and wonder if their personal best performance was or was not good enough for a new national record.

John


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## Lindy (Nov 7, 2008)

Thanks for the list Matt Z. I counted 479 registered so far.


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## RecurveDad (Mar 9, 2012)

My daughter gets a kick out of seeing and trying to break the state and national NFAA records. She asked if NAA kept them and I told her I didn't think so. She seems to push herself to do better at NFAA events, and she has more fun doing it - that is how she sets her goals.

I agree with John, it is a simple thing, but to some it means a lot. Right now for NAA tournaments her goal is to see who won last year in her division and try and beat their score


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## Matt Z (Jul 22, 2003)

Lindy said:


> Thanks for the list Matt Z. I counted 479 registered so far.


Does anyone know how this attendance compares to Nationals past? I've heard the argument that having tournaments in the midwest should have better turnouts due to the number of localized archers. Curious to see if the data supports it? Assuming the economy is a factor, does it come into play?


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## Lindy (Nov 7, 2008)

Matt,

This topic has come up before. Someone had figures from past tournament etc. I just can't remember where that is. Maybe if you post a new topic you will get a responce from someone.


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