# Lack of unknown yardage shooters at ASA shoots



## buckeyebuckhntr (Jan 5, 2004)

This is my first year doing ASA Federation shoots (being from Ohio its all IBO here) Shooting Men's Open 40 I've done three in Ohio and one in Pennsylvania. One Ohio shoot I had three others plus myself, the other Ohio shoots and the PA shoot it was just one other different person per shoot plus me.

The known 40 class has 15 plus every shoot. So does known 45. Open 40 averages like two guys and open 45 runs between zero and two shooters.

What I am getting at is why doesn't anyone like to shoot unknown anymore? Thoughts?


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## RickT (Mar 14, 2009)

People don't want to put the time in to learn how to judge yardage.


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## RJH1 (Jul 30, 2015)

Mainly because learning to judge yardage sucks and takes a huge amount of time, and people would rather just shoot their bows and learn to shoot their bows well than worry with judging how far a Target is when they have a handy dandy rangefinder to take care of that.

The unknown classes are so lightly participated in I honestly don't know why asa has them anymore. I really wish the men's would just go to all known and all 50-yard Max regardless of class and age. But they didn't really ask me so whatever.

So when you add up that learning to judge yardage is hard and takes a huge amount of time, and then after you spend the time learning how to do it you get to shoot against one or two other people, it's pretty easy to see why no one shoots unknown anymore


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## yohowen (Jun 1, 2021)

I've started to notice the same is the case here in Texas aswell. I feel like unknown yardage ads an extra layer of skill to separate the good from the great, and I honestly find it disappointing that a lot of people don't bother with it anymore. Kind of takes some of the fun and challenge out of it.


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## pottergreg (Mar 20, 2015)

If you need to use a rangefinder for 3D, you might as well stay at home and shoot your target in the back yard IMO. Funny thing, I am in favor of using a rangefinder to hunt so people don't wound/make bad hit on live animals.


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## Wiscoboy (Feb 18, 2019)

We live in a participation ribbon society. Why get good at anything when you can just take an easier way out. 

I have also noticed a lot more hunters on and off film making poor hits, my guess is the lack of ranging skills coincide. 

I am not condoning anyones way of shooting over anothers, im just saying dont confuse a high score with a rangefinder vs a medium score without as being superior. 

To me, 3d has always been to practice to become a better bowhunter, and part of that includes ranging skills.


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## RJH1 (Jul 30, 2015)

Wiscoboy said:


> We live in a participation ribbon society. Why get good at anything when you can just take an easier way out.
> 
> I have also noticed a lot more hunters on and off film making poor hits, my guess is the lack of ranging skills coincide.
> 
> ...


In asa the participation ribbons are handed out in the unknown classes. All the heat is in the know classes. I am talking on the amateur level, the pros are all good and no participation ribbons handed out in any pro class.

Not taking anything away from the good unknown shooters, but when there is 3 unknown shooters and 20+ known shooters, the unknown shooters look to be the ones angleing for a participation ribbon


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## sagecreek (Jul 15, 2003)

Unknown is more funner


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## Daddymac (Oct 27, 2014)

buckeyebuckhntr said:


> What I am getting at is why doesn't anyone like to shoot unknown anymore? Thoughts?


My guess would be they want to shoot a higher score by shooting the known distance.


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## farscapesg1 (Sep 30, 2019)

Everyone has a different opinion of fun? I mean, I could ask the same thing about why more people don’t shoot recurve. There is usually only 1 or 2 barebow shooters at any given ASA qualifier I’ve gone to. Trad may have 3 at most. Why is everyone using training wheels . Recurve is where the fun is, not worrying about how many 12’s you missed.

As to the known vs unknown, I overheard someone talking about ASA moving to known distances and they put it this way. People are paying for an archery competition, not a distance judging competiton.


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## midnight_f150 (Jul 4, 2009)

I have a buddy he hates unknown won't shoot a tournament that doesn't allow a rangefinder. But same guy thinks using a back bar stabilizer is cheating in hunter class.


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## Nimrod218 (Apr 10, 2021)

It is interesting because I just recently got back into archery after taking a bunch of years off due to life. I hadn’t ever shot a 3D tournament and was honestly surprised how few known distance shoots there were near me. I’ve had a rangefinder in my pocket or around my neck every time I’ve gone hunting for almost a decade now so shooting a unknown distance tournament seemed odd. Shooting unknown distance is fun but I see it solely as a game. In a hunting scenario I know for sure that animal is inside 20 yds (which I’ve gotten pretty good at judging) I’m gonna range it or pre-range landmarks for reference during the shot. I think what would be cool as more people start to shoot known distance is if they started to stretch the range out. Making a 80 yard shot even if you know exactly how far it is still requires a ton of skill.


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## bunnybrew (Jul 13, 2009)

It's simple, Rangefinders are cheap, crazy accurate, and easy to use. Most target archers start as bowhunters. Why would any new bowhunter dedicate the copious amounts of time towards range estimation when they can buy a nice rangefinder for 200 dollars? Then, when this bowhunter gets into target archery, is he going to go back to square one to learn yardage estimation so he can compete in unknown, or just jump into known? I shoot known because then I can dedicate what little time I have for archery practice all towards shooting.


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## ukxbow (Aug 17, 2018)

All 3D archery in the UK is unknown. My view is that if I want to shoot at known distances, I can shoot target. For me, the combination of animal targets, the woods, fresh air etc goes hand in hand with the challenge of unknown distances and clever target placement. Knowing that the course layers will be using various tricks to fool me on distance is part of the fun for me. I enjoy that it’s not all about ‘pure archery’, because I can do that indoors without even a breath of wind. For known distance outdoors we have field archery. I am not surprised known is more popular in the US, it I doubt it would play out that way in the UK. Part of that is because most archers shooting at 3D shoots are not shooting compound. We have loads of classes, including English Longbow and Primitive and we shoot side by side in a comp. makes it more fun to see the next guy draw back his crooked Osage primitive bow and unleash a wooden arrow with self nock! Nobody knows the distance, so there are lots of bad shots and a nice relaxed atmosphere. I shoot Compound unlimited class, with probably 8-20 in my class on a typical shoot.


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## jesse.cornelson (May 31, 2021)

It is a reflection on how people hunt. These days most every hunter (myself included) carries a laser rangefinder.


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## Dino757 (Jul 2, 2016)

RJH1 said:


> In asa the participation ribbons are handed out in the unknown classes. All the heat is in the know classes. I am talking on the amateur level, the pros are all good and no participation ribbons handed out in any pro class.
> 
> Not taking anything away from the good unknown shooters, but when there is 3 unknown shooters and 20+ known shooters, the unknown shooters look to be the ones angleing for a participation ribbon


I disagree. I know some dudes that shoot unknown that are hammers. And I am glad they don't shoot known yardage. That just another spot I'd fall!!!

I shoot because I like the competition. I do not have the time to dedicate to practicing judging yardage and the time to practice shooting. So I choose to use what time I do have on my shooting. So known yardage is the game for me. Id love to be competitive at the unknown game but lets just tell the truth, I am not. 

I have never understood the argument between known and unknown. No one is forcing you to sign up for either class. Pay your money and get after it.


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## RJH1 (Jul 30, 2015)

Dino757 said:


> I disagree. I know some dudes that shoot unknown that are hammers. And I am glad they don't shoot known yardage. That just another spot I'd fall!!!
> 
> I shoot because I like the competition. I do not have the time to dedicate to practicing judging yardage and the time to practice shooting. So I choose to use what time I do have on my shooting. So known yardage is the game for me. Id love to be competitive at the unknown game but lets just tell the truth, I am not.
> 
> I have never understood the argument between known and unknown. No one is forcing you to sign up for either class. Pay your money and get after it.


You're missing what I'm saying. There are definitely some great unknown shooters out there, but if you're going to try to "win" a participation ribbon the chances of shooting against no one are much higher in the unknown classes. That's why unknown has become the participation award class LOL. Personally I don't really care what anybody shoots, but the odds of shooting against several good shooters instead of maybe one good shooter are much higher in the known classes. But, yes there some outstanding unknown shooters out there


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## buckeyebuckhntr (Jan 5, 2004)

To add to my first post. It never even crossed my mind to shoot the known classes when signing up. Where I live everything is unknown yardage, IBO rules are what all the clubs follow here. There are no close ASA nationals, but two of the 3 legs of the triple crown and the IBO World's are within 3 hours. The only known yardage shoots I've ever been to are the R100 shoots.

That's what surprised me the most with the federation classes unknown participation. All these guys around here have shot unknown their whole lives.


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## RJH1 (Jul 30, 2015)

buckeyebuckhntr said:


> To add to my first post. It never even crossed my mind to shoot the known classes when signing up. Where I live everything is unknown yardage, IBO rules are what all the clubs follow here. There are no close ASA nationals, but two of the 3 legs of the triple crown and the IBO World's are within 3 hours. The only known yardage shoots I've ever been to are the R100 shoots.
> 
> That's what surprised me the most with the federation classes unknown participation. All these guys around here have shot unknown their whole lives.


Since there are no IBO shoots around me, I don't know their rules. Do they have no unknown classes? And have their numbers been dropping or going up since ASA started?


The way the numbers are in asa it seems known classes is where people want to be for sure, and if you're wanting to draw in shooters I would assume IBO would end up having known classes as well. But I don't know


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## buckeyebuckhntr (Jan 5, 2004)

RJH1 said:


> You're missing what I'm saying. There are definitely some great unknown shooters out there, but if you're going to try to "win" a participation ribbon the chances of shooting against no one are much higher in the unknown classes. That's why unknown has become the participation award class LOL. Personally I don't really care what anybody shoots, but the odds of shooting against several good shooters instead of maybe one good shooter are much higher in the known classes. But, yes there some outstanding unknown shooters out there


I do not feel this is an accurate take. You have guys who have been shooting 3D a very long time shooting known 40 which ASA labels a beginner class. 

I am not a beginner, my first National shoot was back in 2004. However this is the first year I have decided to try shooting open equipment so I am shooting BBO at the Triple Crown and Open 40 at the Federation. I will most likely shoot known 45 at the Federation shoots next year if the unknown game doesn't get more guys shooting it.


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## RJH1 (Jul 30, 2015)

buckeyebuckhntr said:


> I do not feel this is an accurate take. You have guys who have been shooting 3D a very long time shooting known 40 which ASA labels a beginner class.
> 
> I am not a beginner, my first National shoot was back in 2004. However this is the first year I have decided to try shooting open equipment so I am shooting BBO at the Triple Crown and Open 40 at the Federation. I will most likely shoot known 45 at the Federation shoots next year if the unknown game doesn't get more guys shooting it.


You're missing what I'm saying as well. I just pulled a recent State qualifier and glanced at it,Hunter class which is known, there were about 10 shooters, and Hunter elite which is basically the same thing but unknown there was one. In k40 there were about 10 shooters, and Open C which is the same thing but unknown, there was one. In k45 there were about 12 shooters, in open A or b I can't remember which is the same one there were none. So you can see there's a lot less competition in the unknown classes and just by entering in an unknown class you have a decent chance of winning. The same cannot be said for the known classes. I'm speaking strictly of asa here I don't know much about IBO. And don't think any of that means that there aren't some good unknown shooters,if you're thinking that's what I'm saying you're wrong, what I am saying is no one shoots unknown so the odds of "winning" go way up if you just show up and sign your name. 


None of what I am saying is emotionally driven because of whatever class I shoot, it's strictly looking at the numbers. If you want a better chance of "winning" you shoot unknown because the odds are there's only going to be one or two people in that class. That is kind of the definition of participation ribbon classes LOL 



PS the only reason I brought up the participation award stuff is because someone else earlier said something about everybody wanting a participation award, seeming to allude to that's why people are shooting known. But I could have been misunderstanding what they said. Have a good one


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## Dino757 (Jul 2, 2016)

buckeyebuckhntr said:


> I do not feel this is an accurate take. You have guys who have been shooting 3D a very long time shooting known 40 which ASA labels a beginner class.
> 
> I am not a beginner, my first National shoot was back in 2004. However this is the first year I have decided to try shooting open equipment so I am shooting BBO at the Triple Crown and Open 40 at the Federation. I will most likely shoot known 45 at the Federation shoots next year if the unknown game doesn't get more guys shooting it.


I dont see the unknown game getting stronger anytime soon. Honestly if it wasn't for a few major names keeping it alive I think it would have died off sooner. Ive seen the same thing in my area. Known 3D wasnt even a thing until a few years ago. Now any given weekend it will be the largest class.


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## huteson2us2 (Jun 22, 2005)

I am a spot shooter that would like to take up 3Ds. I cannot judge distance no matter how often I tey and I have been trying for over 60 years. I have always used a rangefinder and before the electronic rangefinders, I had a mechanical one for hunting ot never took a shot over 30 yards.

I also have a 27" DL that again limits my speed for unknown distance. Known distance will level the playing field for me if I start competing in 3D. Now if only I can get my head around shooting an animal in the shoulder or liver to get the 12 or 14. 

By the way, my eyes at 74 are so bad that I have a hard time seeing my arrows at 20 yards and can barely make out the 10 out to 30 yards. So when I make a heart shot at 40 and walk up to see an 8, I go back to spots.


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## Bucket (Jan 6, 2006)

buckeyebuckhntr said:


> This is my first year doing ASA Federation shoots (being from Ohio its all IBO here) Shooting Men's Open 40 I've done three in Ohio and one in Pennsylvania. One Ohio shoot I had three others plus myself, the other Ohio shoots and the PA shoot it was just one other different person per shoot plus me.
> 
> The known 40 class has 15 plus every shoot. So does known 45. Open 40 averages like two guys and open 45 runs between zero and two shooters.
> 
> *What I am getting at is why doesn't anyone like to shoot unknown anymore?* Thoughts?



Like was mentioned, it is pretty simple. No one want to put in the time to get good at judging yardage. (not a criticism, just a fact made by most that like known)

I also think there are some (maybe even a lot) that want to be able to boast about their good scores. Problem is, the "good" scores in known classes are eclipsed by "great " scores. Shooting even or up one or 2 points is pretty damn good in an unknown shoot. But in a known shoot, you are average. But hey, it sounds good to be able to tell someone that doesn't know any better that you shot even.

We shoot all unknown, and I know several guys that shoot unknown that use the yardage game to make up for their lack of execution. Just as there are a lot that shoot known because they cant judge.


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## cs1983 (Jun 2, 2018)

pottergreg said:


> If you need to use a rangefinder for 3D, you might as well stay at home and shoot your target in the back yard IMO. Funny thing, I am in favor of using a rangefinder to hunt so people don't wound/make bad hit on live animals.


Becoming overconfident in one's ability to judge yardage via unknown, in an event which as far as I know was meant to train for hunting, is a surefire way to end up with making bad hits on animals in real life.


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## buckeyebuckhntr (Jan 5, 2004)

cs1983 said:


> Becoming overconfident in one's ability to judge yardage via unknown, in an event which as far as I know was meant to train for hunting, is a surefire way to end up with making bad hits on animals in real life.


I think we can all agree when it comes to live animals knowing the range is important. It doesn't always work out that way (knowing the exact yardage) though so being able to accurately judge yardage is very important in hunting situations.

I've never shot an animal with the aid of a rangefinder. I don't take long shots on deer so not using a rangefinder has nevet affected me. I do always have one on hand in the event I need it though.

Sent from my SM-N975U using Tapatalk


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## Ben7731 (May 28, 2021)

buckeyebuckhntr said:


> This is my first year doing ASA Federation shoots (being from Ohio its all IBO here) Shooting Men's Open 40 I've done three in Ohio and one in Pennsylvania. One Ohio shoot I had three others plus myself, the other Ohio shoots and the PA shoot it was just one other different person per shoot plus me.
> 
> The known 40 class has 15 plus every shoot. So does known 45. Open 40 averages like two guys and open 45 runs between zero and two shooters.
> 
> ...





RJH1 said:


> You're missing what I'm saying as well. I just pulled a recent State qualifier and glanced at it,Hunter class which is known, there were about 10 shooters, and Hunter elite which is basically the same thing but unknown there was one. In k40 there were about 10 shooters, and Open C which is the same thing but unknown, there was one. In k45 there were about 12 shooters, in open A or b I can't remember which is the same one there were none. So you can see there's a lot less competition in the unknown classes and just by entering in an unknown class you have a decent chance of winning. The same cannot be said for the known classes. I'm speaking strictly of asa here I don't know much about IBO. And don't think any of that means that there aren't some good unknown shooters,if you're thinking that's what I'm saying you're wrong, what I am saying is no one shoots unknown so the odds of "winning" go way up if you just show up and sign your name.
> 
> 
> None of what I am saying is emotionally driven because of whatever class I shoot, it's strictly looking at the numbers. If you want a better chance of "winning" you shoot unknown because the odds are there's only going to be one or two people in that class. That is kind of the definition of participation ribbon classes LOL
> ...


We have a farm, I put up two hang on stands leave them in place,and mark trees rocks streams for yardage,


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## GreggWNY (Sep 6, 2002)

RickT said:


> People don't want to put the time in to learn how to judge yardage.


Not true at all. I put 25 years into the IBO and ASA circuits shooting unknown. I worked at my yardage every day during the 3D season. Now I just enjoy the known. It’s more relaxing, faster, and more like pure target. In my shooting group at the London ASA shoot this weekend every guy in my group were former pros who shot unknown for many, many years and now just shoot known because they enjoy it.
It’s also why the ASA is growing and the IBO has become a joke.


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## Bucket (Jan 6, 2006)

42 up on a 40 target course...now that's a joke.

To each their own, but I just can't see how anyone would call that fun.


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## buckeyebuckhntr (Jan 5, 2004)

GreggWNY said:


> Not true at all. I put 25 years into the IBO and ASA circuits shooting unknown. I worked at my yardage every day during the 3D season. Now I just enjoy the known. It’s more relaxing, faster, and more like pure target. In my shooting group at the London ASA shoot this weekend every guy in my group were former pros who shot unknown for many, many years and now just shoot known because they enjoy it.
> It’s also why the ASA is growing and the IBO has become a joke.


What class?

Sent from my SM-N975U using Tapatalk


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## RJH1 (Jul 30, 2015)

Bucket said:


> 42 up on a 40 target course...now that's a joke.
> 
> To each their own, but I just can't see how anyone would call that fun.


That is just awesome shooting


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## Bucket (Jan 6, 2006)

RJH1 said:


> That is just awesome shooting


It absolutely is. But, when dang near half your field shoots even or better, the shoot is setup to easy, and screams "feel good shoot"

This isn't to take away from the shooters, they obviously can hit a spot.


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## RJH1 (Jul 30, 2015)

Bucket said:


> It absolutely is. But, when dang near half your field shoots even or better, the shoot is setup to easy, and screams "feel good shoot"
> 
> This isn't to take away from the shooters, they obviously can hit a spot.


Idk, once you understand how to shoot even it's not that hard to do. Shooting in the teens is not even that hard, shooting 42 up that's a different story LOL


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## farscapesg1 (Sep 30, 2019)

Some shoots are set up too easy, but I was happy to see that the London recurve ranges threw in some difficulty. Shooting between trees, a target behind a log that was just below the 10 ring, several of the small targets at max distance, etc. If you all want a challenge come on over.. we need more recurves in 3D anyways!


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## 1/2 Bubble Off (Dec 29, 2016)

When I shoot ASA, I always shoot the KNOWN classes.... As much as I want to WIN, I also want to shoot against someone.... A guy on FB a few years ago, posted a picture of his ASA State Champion buckle and score card.... IIRC, he won after shooting almost 30 down (in 20 targets) and the only other shooter in his class didn't even finish the course.


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## RJH1 (Jul 30, 2015)

1/2 Bubble Off said:


> When I shoot ASA, I always shoot the KNOWN classes.... As much as I want to WIN, I also want to shoot against someone.... A guy on FB a few years ago, posted a picture of his ASA State Champion buckle and score card.... IIRC, he won after shooting almost 30 down (in 20 targets) and the only other shooter in his class didn't even finish the course.


^^^Yep


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## RickT (Mar 14, 2009)

GreggWNY said:


> Not true at all. I put 25 years into the IBO and ASA circuits shooting unknown. I worked at my yardage every day during the 3D season. Now I just enjoy the known. It’s more relaxing, faster, and more like pure target. In my shooting group at the London ASA shoot this weekend every guy in my group were former pros who shot unknown for many, many years and now just shoot known because they enjoy it.
> It’s also why the ASA is growing and the IBO has become a joke.


You have been shooting for a long time like I have been. Shooters today won't learn like we did. They will shoot known distance so they won't have to learn to judge distance.


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## grouse (Dec 9, 2003)

Same reason crossbows are so popular.


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## RJH1 (Jul 30, 2015)

grouse said:


> Same reason crossbows are so popular.


In ASA there's a surprising lack of popularity with crossbows


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## grouse (Dec 9, 2003)

RJH1 said:


> In ASA there's a surprising lack of popularity with crossbows


Surprising? Not to me. It’s all about effort. Crossbow hunters don’t need to practice that much. It’s the same reason the gun range is packed before opening day. Shoot a few arrows and you’re dialed in. In general, we’ve gravitated towards the path of least resistance. I’m all about getting more people into the outdoors, so that is not a judge mental statement.


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## pdm57 (Nov 29, 2004)

If you think that shooting with fewer shooters in the unknown classes will get you a easy ribbon come on over and get ya some, then we’ll see just how easy those ribbons are to get.


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## RJH1 (Jul 30, 2015)

grouse said:


> Surprising? Not to me. It’s all about effort. Crossbow hunters don’t need to practice that much. It’s the same reason the gun range is packed before opening day. Shoot a few arrows and you’re dialed in. In general, we’ve gravitated towards the path of least resistance. I’m all about getting more people into the outdoors, so that is not a judge mental statement.


But in asa there are not many crossbow shooters, which was my point. There is a class for crossbows the "easiest thing to shoot" but very few people shoot them. At proams there will be less that 20 sometimes, less than 10 and there will be over 125 each in k40 and k45


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## RJH1 (Jul 30, 2015)

pdm57 said:


> If you think that shooting with fewer shooters in the unknown classes will get you a easy ribbon come on over and get ya some, then we’ll see just how easy those ribbons are to get.


If you think it is easy to get a ribbon in one of the known classes, go get you one....

That works both ways lol, but since there are many times one to no shooters to shoot against a person in unknown in state qualifiers, a person has a much better chance of "winning" an unknown class because he is the only person shooting in it. It is just math, not emotion


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## grouse (Dec 9, 2003)

RJH1 said:


> But in asa there are not many crossbow shooters, which was my point. There is a class for crossbows the "easiest thing to shoot" but very few people shoot them. At proams there will be less that 20 sometimes, less than 10 and there will be over 125 each in k40 and k45


I guess my point is, is that 3D is practice. But if you don’t need to practice, what’s the point


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## pdm57 (Nov 29, 2004)

What I’m really saying is that someone that can judge yardage can level the playing field against someone that is an excellent shooter from time to time.


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## Corinth Hunter (May 6, 2009)

I just wish ibo would allow you to adjust your sight as I like my single pin but have to use a 3 pin for 3D and my old eyes have difficulties with it. I hunt and adjust my single pin so one would think you could adjust on the course, ok with no rangefinder though.


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## Bucket (Jan 6, 2006)

Corinth Hunter said:


> I just wish ibo would allow you to adjust your sight as I like my single pin but have to use a 3 pin for 3D and my old eyes have difficulties with it. I hunt and adjust my single pin so one would think you could adjust on the course, ok with no rangefinder though.


You can do that...assuming you sign up for the correct class.

If you are just starting, BBO is a great starting point.


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## Bucket (Jan 6, 2006)

RJH1 said:


> If you think it is easy to get a ribbon in one of the known classes, go get you one....
> 
> That works both ways lol, but since there are many times one to no shooters to shoot against a person in unknown in state qualifiers, a person has a much better chance of "winning" an unknown class because he is the only person shooting in it. It is just math, not emotion


If you are getting ribbons in unknown, then you will probably get ribbons in known. Chances of someone that doesnt shoot unknown walking in and placing in an unknown are unlikely.

But I doubt that is where most of us are. If you are a middle of the pack known shooter, you will struggle at unknown. And a middle of the pack unknown shooter will more than likely place much higher, and will absolutely have a better score to tell their friends about.


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## GreggWNY (Sep 6, 2002)

buckeyebuckhntr said:


> What class?
> 
> Sent from my SM-N975U using Tapatalk


Senior Masters Known although there were 2 shooters in my group who shot Super Senior Known. Had the pleasure of shooting with Charles Blankenship and Ken Conley and we all had a lot of fun.


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## 1/2 Bubble Off (Dec 29, 2016)

grouse said:


> I guess my point is, is that *3D is practice. *But if you don’t need to practice, what’s the point


For some of us, 3D is WAY more than just "Practice"!!!! I know quite a few people that don't hunt but love 3D.


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## carlosii (Feb 25, 2007)

farscapesg1 said:


> Some shoots are set up too easy, but I was happy to see that the London recurve ranges threw in some difficulty. Shooting between trees, a target behind a log that was just below the 10 ring, several of the small targets at max distance, etc. If you all want a challenge come on over.. we need more recurves in 3D anyways!


As a new recruit to the barebow nation, and a long time ASA compound shooter, I thought I might try BBR at the upcoming Metropolis shoot. If that's the way they set up those ranges, thanks but no thanks. I can miss targets and lose arrows without leaving home.


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## farscapesg1 (Sep 30, 2019)

carlosii said:


> As a new recruit to the barebow nation, and a long time ASA compound shooter, I thought I might try BBR at the upcoming Metropolis shoot. If that's the way they set up those ranges, thanks but no thanks. I can miss targets and lose arrows without leaving home.


Oops… don’t let me scare you away. I’m trying to get more recurves to attend these, not the other way around 

As a relatively new BBR shooter myself (started last year and still struggling) I still miss a target every now and then, usually on the 27-30 yard shots. I still use cheap Carbon Impact arrows for 3D so if I lose one it’s only about $10, though I just re-tuned some VAPs that were way to stifffor my daughter.

I’ve heard Metropolis is easier. London, KY is know for dark shooting lanes, especially at 7:30 in the morning.


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## carlosii (Feb 25, 2007)

farscapesg1 said:


> Oops… don’t let me scare you away. I’m trying to get more recurves to attend these, not the other way around
> 
> As a relatively new BBR shooter myself (started last year and still struggling) I still miss a target every now and then, usually on the 27-30 yard shots. I still use cheap Carbon Impact arrows for 3D so if I lose one it’s only about $10, though I just re-tuned some VAPs that were way to stifffor my daughter.
> 
> I’ve heard Metropolis is easier. London, KY is know for dark shooting lanes, especially at 7:30 in the morning.


OK. 40 ASA targets over two days at ten buck apiece...hmmm $400. LOL I was considering Metro, but a graduation reception and surgery to get rid of a skin cancer have pretty well killed the idea. Good luck to you and all the stickbow shooters at Metro.


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## Centershot30 (Jan 9, 2017)

Not shooting unknown doesn’t make you any less of a shooter than anyone else. Just because someone shoots unknown 3D doesn’t impress me or make him a better archer. And no, known and unknown does separate the men from the boys. Look at Levi Morgan’s indoor 20 yard career. When a guy works 10 hours a day 6 days a week, he doesn’t have the time to put into judging yardage. But can shoot just as well as the next man. If you have a lot of the targets and can practice 8 hours a day on them, it’s fine. But guys are not going to spend the money to compete in a class that they simply can’t have time to practice and learn yardages. You can’t be any kind of competition never being able to have time to learn yardage. No different than a man living and working in city limits and can’t shoot any further than 20 yards. Can he be competitive at a 90 meter shoot? Hell no. But shoot against him at any 20 yard event and he can shoot beside anyone. You can judge phone poles , and bushes, and doors down the hallway at work, but it’s not going to help you on a bedded buck 48 yards across a water hole perched on an upslope. So it’s not even remotely fair to say , just because a guy doesn’t shoot unknown is a less archer.


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## buckeyebuckhntr (Jan 5, 2004)

Centershot30 said:


> Not shooting unknown doesn’t make you any less of a shooter than anyone else. Just because someone shoots unknown 3D doesn’t impress me or make him a better archer. And no, known and unknown does separate the men from the boys. Look at Levi Morgan’s indoor 20 yard career. When a guy works 10 hours a day 6 days a week, he doesn’t have the time to put into judging yardage. But can shoot just as well as the next man. If you have a lot of the targets and can practice 8 hours a day on them, it’s fine. But guys are not going to spend the money to compete in a class that they simply can’t have time to practice and learn yardages. You can’t be any kind of competition never being able to have time to learn yardage. No different than a man living and working in city limits and can’t shoot any further than 20 yards. Can he be competitive at a 90 meter shoot? Hell no. But shoot against him at any 20 yard event and he can shoot beside anyone. You can judge phone poles , and bushes, and doors down the hallway at work, but it’s not going to help you on a bedded buck 48 yards across a water hole perched on an upslope. So it’s not even remotely fair to say , just because a guy doesn’t shoot unknown is a less archer.


Appreciate the response, but it reads more as an excuse for some to not shoot unknown than anything. It is not hard to find time to practice yardage. You can literally do it anywhere you go. It is considerably more difficult to find time to get all your gear out and get reps in with the bow than it is to put a rangefinder in your pocket while you are outside doing other things.

The point of this thread wasn't to segregate unknown and known shooters, but to better understand why so few are shooting unknown anymore.

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## Conn04 (Feb 29, 2012)

So here is my two cents take it for what it’s worth. When I first started I shot open c which was half unknown half known which is now the open 40 all unknown class. I shot a year at the local level and it was literally me and one other guy. If I won I got like half my entry fee back. Mean time the k45 class had 30+ guys and first place was winning $200 at local events. So I swapped to k45 just to up my level of competition and have a chance to win some real money. Fast forward 11 years and now I work an average of 50 hours a week 6 months of the year the other 6 months I work 70+ I literally don’t have the time to judge. Nor do I want to drive 6-7 hours to an national event and shoot like crap cause my judging was off that weekend. Known classes in the amateur ranks in my opinion have become the working mans/woman’s class. Do I still practice judging? Absolutely cause I shoot 3d to be a better hunter and you’re not always gonna have time to stop and range how far an animal is.


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## Milo357 (May 4, 2014)

Wiscoboy said:


> We live in a participation ribbon society. Why get good at anything when you can just take an easier way out.
> 
> I have also noticed a lot more hunters on and off film making poor hits, my guess is the lack of ranging skills coincide.
> 
> ...



"We live in a participation ribbon society."

Oh please. Unknown or known, you still have hit the target. People can excel or suck at hitting the target both ways.


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## grouse (Dec 9, 2003)

Shooting known distance, might as well shoot fita.


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## Bucket (Jan 6, 2006)

Milo357 said:


> "We live in a participation ribbon society."
> 
> Oh please. Unknown or known, you still have hit the target. *People can excel or suck at hitting the target both ways*.


Absolutely. I don't think anyone is saying that the guys winning in known can't shoot. But, I also think that most would agree that there are a lot of people that would rather say they shot a 400 in known, than a 360 in unknown...even though it is the middle of the pack in each class. Might be a stretch to call that "participation ribbon" but it is all about appearance.


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## rs3711 (May 1, 2008)

RickT said:


> People don't want to put the time in to learn how to judge yardage.


That's never stopped me!!! 😂 I shoot Super Senior (unknown) and have never shot in a known class. We generally have about a third of the S.S. Known class. I shoot my bow as often as possible, but I NEVER practice judging. I tried it once and it didn't help me. Some days my yardage comes to me and some days it doesn't. *For me*, I just think judging is a part of 3D archery.


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## sagecreek (Jul 15, 2003)

rs3711 said:


> That's never stopped me!!! 😂 I shoot Super Senior (unknown) and have never shot in a known class. We generally have about a third of the S.S. Known class. I shoot my bow as often as possible, but I NEVER practice judging. I tried it once and it didn't help me. Some days my yardage comes to me and some days it doesn't. *For me*, I just think judging is a part of 3D archery.


Exactly how I feel and shoot.


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## 3-D Quest (Jan 26, 2007)

Logistically prolly not possible, but I think to square it all up everyone should shoot 20 known and 20 unknown.


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## sharptrenton (Jul 8, 2006)

3-D Quest said:


> Logistically prolly not possible, but I think to square it all up everyone should shoot 20 known and 20 unknown.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


They used to have several classes that shot 20 known and 20 unknown. I know that Open C was one of them.


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## carlosii (Feb 25, 2007)

RJH1 said:


> If you think it is easy to get a ribbon in one of the known classes, go get you one....
> 
> That works both ways lol, but since there are many times one to no shooters to shoot against a person in unknown in state qualifiers, a person has a much better chance of "winning" an unknown class because he is the only person shooting in it. It is just math, not emotion


I always say when that happens, "I beat 'em all, whether they showed up or not",


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## Q2DEATH (May 12, 2003)

I just got back into 3D after a long hiatus with youth sports. Nobody wants to shoot unknow yardage anymore. Sad.


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## sagecreek (Jul 15, 2003)

Q2DEATH said:


> I just got back into 3D after a long hiatus with youth sports. Nobody wants to shoot unknow yardage anymore. Sad.


Welcome back!


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