# Do Wraps Make 2712's Illegal



## TNMAN (Oct 6, 2009)

Just got thru reading Bruce Cull's "From the President's Desk". The new arrow rule reads "Maximum arrow shaft diameter allowed in NFAA competition will be 0.422 inches. The shaft diameter will include any wrap placed on the arrow and will include the size of the nock and the nock insert."


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## rock monkey (Dec 28, 2002)

only if the arrow penetrates deep enough to touch the target face.

i'm fairly certain that FITA has the same type of rule for their 23 series rule.


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## TNMAN (Oct 6, 2009)

rock monkey said:


> only if the arrow penetrates deep enough to touch the target face.
> 
> i'm fairly certain that FITA has the same type of rule for their 23 series rule.


How's it going to penetrate if they won't let you shoot it? Talking about maximum allowable diameter. Are full bores and 2712's actually 27/64 of an inch, or is that an approximation? The thinnest wraps made will put you over .422 if that is a true 27/64".


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## TNMAN (Oct 6, 2009)

rock monkey said:


> only if the arrow penetrates deep enough to touch the target face.
> 
> i'm fairly certain that FITA has the same type of rule for their 23 series rule.


RM, I see that you are referencing RIC 2010-4 RIC 2010–4. That ruling was made to the "old" rule on max arrow size. The "new" rule, just passed by mail-in directors vote and soon to be published, is quoted in the OP---all wraps are included in the max allowable shaft diameter. Anyone using wraps with a 27 series arrow will exceed the max diameter, and the arrows would not be allowed. There are many people using wraps, esp on carbon, that need to know about the new rule. Show up at Vegas or Indoor Nats with wraps on a 27 arrow, and you may be disappointed.


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## rock monkey (Dec 28, 2002)

TNMAN said:


> RM, I see that you are referencing RIC 2010-4 RIC 2010–4. That ruling was made to the "old" rule on max arrow size. The "new" rule, just passed by mail-in directors vote and soon to be published, is quoted in the OP---all wraps are included in the max allowable shaft diameter. Anyone using wraps with a 27 series arrow will exceed the max diameter, and the arrows would not be allowed. There are many people using wraps, esp on carbon, that need to know about the new rule. Show up at Vegas or Indoor Nats with wraps on a 27 arrow, and you may be disappointed.



i shoot 25series carbons for indoor nfaa and 2213's for indoor fita. but you would have to ask dale_b1 to be certain.


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## Kade (Jan 11, 2011)

Well if they are going to be that petty, wouldn't fletching also make your arrows illegal?!?!? If your arrow is gonna gain points because of a wrap then a vane is really going to hook you up. Never had a wrap sink in a bale indoors that my vane didn't also sink into. 


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## PAUL PUGLISI (Dec 21, 2002)

does anyone know the micrometer (SP*) reading for a 23 series FITA legal arrow?


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## I BOW 2 (May 22, 2002)

9.3mm


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## archer_nm (Mar 29, 2004)

Do not read anything into the rule, it says 27/64 that also includes wrap, nock, and nock insert. So to be on the safe side if you use a true 27/64 then don't put on wraps...


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## Bean Burrito (Apr 20, 2011)

archer_nm said:


> Do not read anything into the rule, it says 27/64 that also includes wrap, nock, and nock insert. So to be on the safe side if you use a true 27/64 then don't put on wraps...


Hmm, but CX still sell their 27 series arrows with the pin nock that adds additional OD... Interesting


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## Macaholic (Mar 18, 2004)

Bean Burrito said:


> Hmm, but CX still sell their 27 series arrows with the pin nock that adds additional OD... Interesting


Sounds like Easton still has it's way with the nfaa


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## Kade (Jan 11, 2011)

Bean Burrito said:


> Hmm, but CX still sell their 27 series arrows with the pin nock that adds additional OD... Interesting


They sell them with pins. That pin adapter is EXACTLY like everyone else's pins. They do not add to the shaft diameter. Your thinking about the dog collar that comes with them that do not have to be put on. Frankly for indoor why anyone would use them or think they need them is beyond me. Mine are in the bag they came in and are in the box of clutter. 


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## RickT (Mar 14, 2009)

PAUL PUGLISI said:


> does anyone know the micrometer (SP*) reading for a 23 series FITA legal arrow?


 9.3mm decimal equivilent is .366141".


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## CHPro (May 21, 2002)

> Well if they are going to be that petty, wouldn't fletching also make your arrows illegal?!?!? If your arrow is gonna gain points because of a wrap then a vane is really going to hook you up.


Just an fyi, fletching has no impact on the scoring. Score is based on where the shaft lies, not the fletch. So if you sink an arrow up to the fletch the call is made based on where the arrow shaft is, not whether the fletching cuts the line. Hence possibly the reason why the wrap rule was voted in since it would be difficult to determine whether the wrap touched the line or the shaft? 

Still think things could have been ruled on differently though, i.e. put a limit on how far in front of the fletch the wrap could extend and if the arrow was embedded in the target up to the wrap then it would be treated as a pass-thru and have to be re-shot. This would keep people from placing a thick/fat wrap on the front of their arrows just to get an advantage over their fellow archer while still allowing use of wraps (does tend to make it easier to get glues to adhere to the wraps vs. bare-shafts, carbon or aluminum).

And yes, current interpretation in the OP's appears to be correct. I believe per NFAA rules the new requirements would become law 30 days after publication in Archery.

>>------->


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## Mike2787 (Jul 16, 2002)

So if wraps on 27 series shafts make the shaft too large, what about the graphics? Do I have to remove the silk-screened or shrink wrapped graphics from my shafts?


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## wolf44 (Mar 31, 2009)

RIC 2010 – 4
March 5, 2010
The Director from Indiana was asked to rule on the use of wraps on arrow shafts- increasing the diameter beyond
0.422 inches for use in NFAA competition. The Director determined that this would be legal as long as the wrap is
not in the scoring area. If an arrow equipped with a wrap was embedded in the target face so that the wrap was in
the scoring area, that arrow could not be scored and would need to be reshot.


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## TNMAN (Oct 6, 2009)

wolf44 said:


> RIC 2010 – 4
> March 5, 2010
> The Director from Indiana was asked to rule on the use of wraps on arrow shafts- increasing the diameter beyond
> 0.422 inches for use in NFAA competition. The Director determined that this would be legal as long as the wrap is
> ...


That ruling would only apply to the current arrow diameter rule, and will have no bearing whatsoever when the new rule is in effect. My concern is that a lot of people will be caught unaware. Those carbon shafts that are advertised as .421 or .422 may very well be over the allowable .422 at the graphics. Wish I had some to measure.


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## Kade (Jan 11, 2011)

CHPro said:


> Just an fyi, fletching has no impact on the scoring. Score is based on where the shaft lies, not the fletch. So if you sink an arrow up to the fletch the call is made based on where the arrow shaft is, not whether the fletching cuts the line. Hence possibly the reason why the wrap rule was voted in since it would be difficult to determine whether the wrap touched the line or the shaft?
> 
> Still think things could have been ruled on differently though, i.e. put a limit on how far in front of the fletch the wrap could extend and if the arrow was embedded in the target up to the wrap then it would be treated as a pass-thru and have to be re-shot. This would keep people from placing a thick/fat wrap on the front of their arrows just to get an advantage over their fellow archer while still allowing use of wraps (does tend to make it easier to get glues to adhere to the wraps vs. bare-shafts, carbon or aluminum).
> 
> ...


I know Jeff I hear ya. That's why I made the comment. A wrap has the same impact or less then a vane would. I have yet to shoot a wrap that would influence a call. If it really is then someone needs to replace their butts lol


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## Spotshooter2 (Oct 23, 2003)

TNMAN said:


> That ruling would only apply to the current arrow diameter rule, and will have no bearing whatsoever when the new rule is in effect. My concern is that a lot of people will be caught unaware. Those carbon shafts that are advertised as .421 or .422 may very well be over the allowable .422 at the graphics. Wish I had some to measure.


 TNMAN, when was there a new rule on the 27's initiated. Rules can only be changed at the meetings in Vegas.


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## TNMAN (Oct 6, 2009)

Spotshooter2 said:


> TNMAN, when was there a new rule on the 27's initiated. *Rules can only be changed at the meetings in Vegas.*


A mail-in directors vote is the only other way that the rules may be changed. This change is not that big of a deal as long as shooters know about it in time--kind of like the points were last year. Wraps are probably out, but labels are awful thin and may not make the difference, but I would be miking mine if had any.


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## Spotshooter2 (Oct 23, 2003)

Thanks for the update TNMAN.


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## RickT (Mar 14, 2009)

Easton FullBore's measure .418 shaft and .420 label. HT-4's measure .419 shaft and .420 label. 2712's measure .419 and .4195 label.


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## field14 (May 21, 2002)

Getting pretty "petty arsed" over this max diameter stuff. The arrow wraps are on the back of the shaft to help with vane adhesion and to help saved people from potentially ruining a $12 shaft when refletching them. It is completely ludicrous in my opinion to "outlaw" a person's 27 diameter arrows because of a wrap on the back end of the shaft that, indoors especially, is likely to rarely, if NEVER, come into contact with the scoring area on the target face.

I will say, and say it now, that at the upcoming Presley's shoot, NFAA rules are a "guideline", and if a person has wraps on their 27 diameter arrows..>GO FOR IT, they will NOT be deemed illegal for the Presley's shoot next weekend. In addition, a week's notice before the tournament isn't sufficient time to change things anyways.

27's with wraps are LEGAL for the Presley's Midwest Open. Further more, we have brand new BLOCK target bales installed, and I'm telling you right now, NOBODY is going to penetrate those bales with a 27 diameter arrow all the way to the fletches anyways, haha.

field14 (Tom D.)


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## hdracer (Aug 8, 2007)

Just curious--when will this rule go into effect?

Also, when did the Oct/Nov magazine come out? I haven't received mine yet and it's Dec. Is this normal (I joined NFAA in Jul '11)?


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## hdracer (Aug 8, 2007)

Well, I sent my application in Jul/Aug but my membership card says Oct.


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## FishAlaska (Nov 30, 2010)

I confirmed this rule with my director. You will not be disallowed to shoot in NFAA shoot but if the fee to challenge your equipment is paid and your arrow wrap exceeds .422 you will be disqualified. I went with 2613s wrapped to be safe. Chances of someone paying the fee to challenge are slim unless you place well enough to make it worth it to the challenger.

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## field14 (May 21, 2002)

Yet an 'out collar' that is WAYover the 0.422 for the nock insert on the back of some of the 27 diameter shafts are "legal" and a person with those won't be DQ'd?
The wrap is over the shaft, and SO IS the "nock collar", so technically, both of them have indeed become part of the arrow shaft...which makes ALL of the 27 series of arrows that use outserts ILLEGAL if someone should pay the protest fee???

What I read is a ruling that if the wrap came in contact with the target face, the arrow was to be re-shot...NOT a ZERO or a DQ????
I do think also that there is an NFAA Agenda item about this subject, so come February....of course the won't help for VEGAS or the National Indoors in Louisville.
field14 (Tom D.)


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## FishAlaska (Nov 30, 2010)

field14 said:


> Yet an 'out collar' that is WAYover the 0.422 for the nock insert on the back of some of the 27 diameter shafts are "legal" and a person with those won't be DQ'd?
> The wrap is over the shaft, and SO IS the "nock collar", so technically, both of them have indeed become part of the arrow shaft...which makes ALL of the 27 series of arrows that use outserts ILLEGAL if someone should pay the protest fee???
> 
> What I read is a ruling that if the wrap came in contact with the target face, the arrow was to be re-shot...NOT a ZERO or a DQ????
> ...


You read old ruling that was made on spot at a shoot only until the directors or whomever voted. New ruling was made.

New ruling went into effect in last few weeks....it was in NFAA magazine. Nock collars illegal if challenged now too. .425 on tip and .422 for whole rest of the shaft to include bushings and nocks. Bad deal but it is the ruling the directors made. You must be challenged amd the fee must be made they said. 


I just want to know whos micro do tbey use to measure...is it a 10.00 POS or a decent quality machinist micro.

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## field14 (May 21, 2002)

FishAlaska said:


> You read old ruling that was made on spot at a shoot only until the directors or whomever voted. New ruling was made.
> 
> New ruling went into effect in last few weeks....it was in NFAA magazine. Nock collars illegal if challenged now too. .425 on tip and .422 for whole rest of the shaft to include bushings and nocks. Bad deal but it is the ruling the directors made. You must be challenged amd the fee must be made they said.
> 
> ...


Can 'o worms...I hope they have lots of "protest forms"....More than one way to get rid of some "brands" of 27 or even 26 series Carbon arrows and to stop people from protecting their shaft investment with arrow wraps.

Heck, I dunno...but a 22 series carbon shaft with a nock collar on the back end MIGHT be over .422 too? Good way to eliminate the competition...in the tournament...and in the market-place, huh?

field14 (Tom D.)


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## Kade (Jan 11, 2011)

Good thing those collars aren't needed. If anyone wants a bag of them that go on XJammer27s let me know and I will send them to you. They have never been on a shaft and my arrows shoot awesome without them. I don't need to protect the back end of the shaft from impacts indoors.


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## FishAlaska (Nov 30, 2010)

field14 said:


> Can 'o worms...I hope they have lots of "protest forms"....More than one way to get rid of some "brands" of 27 or even 26 series Carbon arrows and to stop people from protecting their shaft investment with arrow wraps.
> 
> Heck, I dunno...but a 22 series carbon shaft with a nock collar on the back end MIGHT be over .422 too? Good way to eliminate the competition...in the tournament...and in the market-place, huh?
> 
> field14 (Tom D.)


I use 2613s and with a wrap they are .420 I dont suspect to many people will challenge because you have to pay the fee and unless they physically see you have a shaft at 27 it would be dumb because once they see it up close it may be a 26 or even some 27s are under .422 with a wrap. I can say X7 2712s are not under with a wrap...they are .422 bare I believe. Many people wont pay the challenge fee because I dont think they get it back and if the arrows proved to be under...I dont think the shooter gets the cash which is wrong. If you challenge me and I am legal...I should get the cash!

An Easton Full Bore arrow exceeds max diameter at .423 over the label on the arrow itself without a wrap. I wonder how this is gonna fly since they made that for indoor and 3D use.


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## field14 (May 21, 2002)

FishAlaska said:


> I use 2613s and with a wrap they are .420 I dont suspect to many people will challenge because you have to pay the fee and unless they physically see you have a shaft at 27 it would be dumb because once they see it up close it may be a 26 or even some 27s are under .422 with a wrap. I can say X7 2712s are not under with a wrap...they are .422 bare I believe. Many people wont pay the challenge fee because I dont think they get it back and if the arrows proved to be under...I dont think the shooter gets the cash which is wrong. If you challenge me and I am legal...I should get the cash!
> 
> An Easton Full Bore arrow exceeds max diameter at .423 over the label on the arrow itself without a wrap. I wonder how this is gonna fly since they made that for indoor and 3D use.
> 
> ...


The Big "E" ain't gonna be happy that the LABEL is going to make that shaft ILLEGAL. I checked my XXX Gold Tips at the label and they make it....but with the 2-mil wraps I'm using...they don't.

So to HECK WITH the fat shafts...don't NEED them that big anyways...I'll go with GT 22Series, or maybe right back to correctly spined arrows; shoot better scores with corrrectly spined arrows anyways.

field14 (Tom D.)


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## FishAlaska (Nov 30, 2010)

field14 said:


> The Big "E" ain't gonna be happy that the LABEL is going to make that shaft ILLEGAL. I checked my XXX Gold Tips at the label and they make it....but with the 2-mil wraps I'm using...they don't.
> 
> So to HECK WITH the fat shafts...don't NEED them that big anyways...I'll go with GT 22Series, or maybe right back to correctly spined arrows; shoot better scores with corrrectly spined arrows anyways.
> 
> field14 (Tom D.)


Here is the mag article. GT 27 series are usually a little under but wrap may take them over. But like I said whos micrometer are we using. They can range plus minus .005.

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## field14 (May 21, 2002)

FishAlaska said:


> Here is the mag article. GT 27 series are usually a little under but wrap may take them over. But like I said whos micrometer are we using. They can range plus minus .005.
> 
> Sent from my SCH-I510 using Tapatalk


I'm shooting GT XXX's and the thin 2-mil wraps I have on the GT XXX's DOES take them over the .422 limit. However, the LABEL on the GT XXX does NOT take them over....at least per my set of S-1 Certified Calipers, that is.
Obviously, even a 2-mil wrap turns the GT XXX's ILLEGAL, so much for FAT SHAFTS...even tho I know I can pull off the wraps and be just fine with them....GRRRRRR
HASSLE AFTER HASSLE over thousandths of an inch....silly, plain silly.
field14 (Tom D.)


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## FishAlaska (Nov 30, 2010)

field14 said:


> I'm shooting GT XXX's and the thin 2-mil wraps I have on the GT XXX's DOES take them over the .422 limit. However, the LABEL on the GT XXX does NOT take them over....at least per my set of S-1 Certified Calipers, that is.
> Obviously, even a 2-mil wrap turns the GT XXX's ILLEGAL, so much for FAT SHAFTS...even tho I know I can pull off the wraps and be just fine with them....GRRRRRR
> HASSLE AFTER HASSLE over thousandths of an inch....silly, plain silly.
> field14 (Tom D.)


I agree but who wants to chance they use a junk micrometer right! Or better yet dont know how to use one! I doubt anyone would pay the protest fee at least not on my scores but some others could.

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## field14 (May 21, 2002)

FishAlaska said:


> I agree but who wants to chance they use a junk micrometer right! Or better yet dont know how to use one! I doubt anyone would pay the protest fee at least not on my scores but some others could.
> 
> Sent from my SCH-I510 using Tapatalk


Trying to skip around the LAW has gotten us 12 million or more ILLEGAL immigrants in the country and we can't seem to get rid of them, nor can our 3 branches of government seem to get what the word ILLEGAL means....picking and choosing which laws to enforce.

Same thing here...with wraps the 27's are ILLEGAL...against the rules...choosing to circumvent the rules by "if somebody protests, then fine, if not, then go for it" is the same thing as turning the head the other way on ILLEGAL immigrants. The problem won't go away, just gets worse. Peer enforcement??? Doesn't work. Would YOU want to be the "butt-head" in the group when you see/know someone has broken the rule?

field14 (Tom D.)


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## psargeant (Aug 1, 2004)

field14 said:


> Trying to skip around the LAW has gotten us 12 million or more ILLEGAL immigrants in the country and we can't seem to get rid of them, nor can our 3 branches of government seem to get what the word ILLEGAL means....picking and choosing which laws to enforce.
> 
> Same thing here...with wraps the 27's are ILLEGAL...against the rules...choosing to circumvent the rules by "if somebody protests, then fine, if not, then go for it" is the same thing as turning the head the other way on ILLEGAL immigrants. The problem won't go away, just gets worse. Peer enforcement??? Doesn't work. Would YOU want to be the "butt-head" in the group when you see/know someone has broken the rule?field14 (Tom D.)


And hence we get the "click" controversy from several years ago...

That said, i see why the rule was made, and agree with it. Let's just say for a minute that I am a creative archer looking to gain an advantage...

I go and by some 20" long 4 mill material to make "wraps" out of... all of a sudden, I've got more shaft area to work with...(Not that it would make a difference with my game)

Rule could have forced a reshoot where a wrap or nock pin penetrated far enough to be in the scoring area, but that isn't the way it went...

What are you using wraps for anyway?


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## TNMAN (Oct 6, 2009)

ARTICLE VI BOD

G. Effective Date of Actions:
1. All action taken by the Board of Directors shall carry an effective date of 30 calendar days
from notification in Archery, the official publication of the NFAA, unless an individual
action includes an effective date, in which case the effective date shall be set to allow for
publication in Archery magazine. Notification in Archery shall be the April/May issue.
2. Updated Constitution and By-laws handbooks shall be available within 90 calendar days
from the close of the bi-annual meeting.
H. Mail Voting:
On all questions submitted to the Board of Directors for a mail vote, the ballot shall be submitted
by the Executive Secretary. Twenty-eight (28) days after the mailing of the ballots, the Executive
Secretary shall count the ballots received. The Executive Secretary shall submit the record to the
President, who shall thereupon declare the result of the vote as the official action of the Board. *All
questions requiring the action of the Board of Directors shall carry an effective date.*

Why did the mail in vote on the arrow diameter not carry an effective date as required by the constitution?
Does the quote of the new rule in the President's column constitute "notification" or does that have to happen in the Apr/May issue of the magazine? Does anyone know for sure when the new rule takes effect?


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## field14 (May 21, 2002)

Yes, "we" worry about the thickness of a wrap...and yet one HUGE ITEM concerning SAFETY is let slide, over and over and over again....including allowing it to happen with "big name" shooters, cuz they are "Pros" and know what they are doing??

Off subject for a minute, but SKYING THE BOW is SERIOUS, indoors and out...yet it is becoming more and more common place all the time. FITA/NAA has rule 7.7.7 strictly prohibiting this practice...but yet, here in the USA, it goes on practically unimpeded. Just wait until, in the middle of a tournament, someone, and it could be some of the top name Pros...hits a sprinkler head and breaks it open. End of tournament for the day while first they find the shut off valves, second the fire department comes in, third the host tries to get the water picked up, and on and on and on...All because of allowing an unsafe practice to go on unimpeded. It is NOT OK to draw the bow in this manner!

Oh, back to the wraps....I use some 2-mil "stuff" I bought several years ago...about 7 or 8, in fact. I got a 12" wide 30 feet long roll of white 2-mil vinyl for $23.95!!! I have to cut it to width and length with a sharp blade, but it sure beats the heck out of a dozen wraps (of the wrong size that need to be trimmed anyways) for $17.95.

I still have a lot of that roll left; even after 7 or 8 years of using it, not only for myself, but also once in a while to help out a friend.
Now a daze, they have even more colors and selections...and I'm thinking of getting another roll of some wild colored stuff...even if the price did go up to $25.95... Problem is WHAT COLOR or design???

field14 (Tom D.)


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## super* (Jan 26, 2008)

Kade said:


> Well if they are going to be that petty, wouldn't fletching also make your arrows illegal?!?!? If your arrow is gonna gain points because of a wrap then a vane is really going to hook you up. Never had a wrap sink in a bale indoors that my vane didn't also sink into.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Well your fletchings are not your shaft. The arrow shaft has to be cutting the line.


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## Masterarcher (Mar 1, 2006)

And what about the time honored tradition of dipping arrows. I can dip and dip and dip until my shaft is .500. This whole thing about wraps is a bunch of you know what. No one is winning more because they have a 27 size shaft with a wrap and I shoot almost all of the major tournaments. The winners get there because they have their arrows in the middle of the target. Where are the stats that show this rule is necessary?


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## FishAlaska (Nov 30, 2010)

Masterarcher said:


> And what about the time honored tradition of dipping arrows. I can dip and dip and dip until my shaft is .500. This whole thing about wraps is a bunch of you know what. No one is winning more because they have a 27 size shaft with a wrap and I shoot almost all of the major tournaments. The winners get there because they have their arrows in the middle of the target. Where are the stats that show this rule is necessary?


I agree but it is the rule...funny that they allow full bores which are not uniform at all and can be over size limit over the label. It is what it is though. They dont mention dipping but I am sure it is covered in the catch all total shaft size part.


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## field14 (May 21, 2002)

Why in heaven's name can't the NFAA just look around a bit and start working WITH the other orgs just a little bit:
FITA solved the wraps issue back in 2010 quite easily and quite fool-proof, too!!!

Here is the FITA rule concerning wraps on the 23 diameter arrows (the maximum allowable arrow diameter for INTERNATIONAL competition:

Book 3, Article 8.3.2.7.1
An arrow consists of a shaft with head (point) nock, fletching and, if desired, cresting. The maximum diameter of arrow shafts will not exceed 9.3mm (_arrow wraps will not be considered as part of this limitation as long they do not extend further than 22cm toward the point of the arrow when measured from the throat -nock hole where the string sits- of the nock to the end of the wrap_); the points (heads) for these arrows may have a maximum diameter of 9.4mm. All arrows of every athlete must be marked with the athlete's name or initials on the shaft. All arrows used at any end will carry the same pattern and colour(s) of fletching, nocks and cresting, if any.

FITA Communication

So, because some use 5" feathers...even the 22 cm. for FITA rules gives you 8 3/4" of room for arrow wraps, which is MORE than ample!! FITA doesn't seem to have a problem with over 8" of arrow wrap and their 2315 diameter...but NFAA does? 

But no...the NFAA plays games with this instead of....oh, whatever.....

Simple solution and yet....SKYING the bow, a dangerous safety issue is allowed...for NFAA, IBO, and ASA...that is.


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## Kade (Jan 11, 2011)

What is with the skying the bow thing?

The NFAA doesn't need a rule for SKY drawing. That's is a safety issue that just needs to be dealt with when it arises on your range or shoot. Just like the NFAA does when it happens at an NFAA event if you don't want to say something to the person then get someone in charge of the shoot to handle it. I know at Outdoor Nationals a few years ago there were people drawing in an unsafe manner on the practice range and when we noticed it Mike Lepera was in ear shot so we called him over. I pointed it out to him and he stopped what he was doing and went directly to them and told them either draw your bow safely or you will not be allowed to shoot on the practice range or in the tournament until you draw safely. They threw a fit and said that they wouldn't shoot then. He said fine if you feel that way you can have your money back, but you and your children will not be allowed to shoot on our ranges drawing in an unsafe manner. 

Sky drawing does not need a special rule. There are safety rules in place that this could and should fall under. Do we need a special rule saying don't point your bow at people and draw it with an arrow loaded also? Don't beeotch and moan about it and cry about not having a rule. Common sense would tell me to say something. Just like we do around here. We also do it for other common sense practices that pose a threat that aren't in the rule book. There is a range I shoot at on park land. On days there is a field shoot the back trails are marked off and closed but people ignore it and enter the range and can walk behind targets. There is no rule on not shooting when someone is behind the target that shouldn't be on the range in the rule book. Should we also put a rule for that in there so people know not to shoot when people trespass and are behind the target? Would you still let someone shoot if they were at full draw and didn't see the person pop up behind the target and you did? It's the same thing. Say something...or get someone that will correct them. Or better yet TEACH them how to draw the bow properly.

I still have yet to see all these sky drawers though. Must be a localized thing in your area. Sure once in awhile at the range with the normal riff raff bowhunters. But at an actual field or indoor shoot I don't see it. Maybe it's because we correct people around these parts when they are doing unsafe things. The only person I can think of seeing sky draw in the past few years at an actual shoot that someone should say something to is Dan McCarthy. NASA stopped the space program because they were afraid he was going to put a GT in a Space Shuttle.


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## Spoon13 (Feb 20, 2007)

Here's a thought. Since the these rules seem so near and dear to you, why don't you submit the necessary agenda items to make it so. I've looked at the proposed agenda items and I didn't see anything regarding these rules submitted by IL or the GL Section. But we all know it's far easier to sit behind a computer and complain than it is to ACTUALLY do something about it. Heaven forbid.


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## TNMAN (Oct 6, 2009)

field14 said:


> Why in heaven's name can't the NFAA just look around a bit and start working WITH the other orgs just a little bit:/QUOTE]
> 
> Field, I think that is exactly what NFAA has done, except our max is .422. See FITA ruling below:
> 
> ...


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## field14 (May 21, 2002)

Hopefully you supporters of "sky drawing" and UNSAFE range practices won't have to deal with it WHEN (if) somebody gets struck with a ricocheted arrow, or a hole is shot through the ceiling, or a light get shot out and you inhale the carcinogenic mercury vapor, or get the glass shattering on you. Hopefully it won't be YOU that deals with the lawsuit.
You'll wish you had thought about the risks being taken by the range owners, the club leadership, and the club members, AND the sky-drawers/UNSAFE practices people.
FITA/NAA is PROACTIVE...there are rules in place for UNSAFE practices, specifically drawing the bow an an unsafe angle: Rule 7.7.7. And...it IS ENFORCED. 
NFAA has something there, but it is obscure and pretty much is left up to the shooters themselves to police....Yeah, right...

KADE: YOU go up to the person you mentioned and tell him to quit "sky-drawing". Or in fact go up to anyone on your range or in a tournament, in your group and tell them to quit sky-drawing....First off, you have NO TEETH in a "rule" to go by...secondly you are in for a fight on your hands, too.

Go to any rifle or pistol range, or even a pellet gun range...and point the muzzle loosely around anywhere but TOWARDS the target you intend to shoot...and see how long you stay on the range! Don't give me that a gun and a bow are different...they are LETHAL weapons, and arrows can ricochet just like bullets can; the trigger can fail on a release at any time, just like a safety can fail...
Enough of this...I can well see that UNTIL somebody gets severely injured or a supporter of sky-drawing is directly involved with a clean up, patch up, struck by an arrow or debris...they don't care...Just let it ride UNTIL it happens...and try to pick up the pieces later.
People's nonchalant attitudes when it comes to safety is unbelievable.
field14 (Tom D.)


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## field14 (May 21, 2002)

TNMAN said:


> field14 said:
> 
> 
> > Why in heaven's name can't the NFAA just look around a bit and start working WITH the other orgs just a little bit:/QUOTE]
> ...


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## Kade (Jan 11, 2011)

field14 said:


> Hopefully you supporters of "sky drawing" and UNSAFE range practices won't have to deal with it WHEN (if) somebody gets struck with a ricocheted arrow, or a hole is shot through the ceiling, or a light get shot out and you inhale the carcinogenic mercury vapor, or get the glass shattering on you. Hopefully it won't be YOU that deals with the lawsuit.
> You'll wish you had thought about the risks being taken by the range owners, the club leadership, and the club members, AND the sky-drawers/UNSAFE practices people.
> FITA/NAA is PROACTIVE...there are rules in place for UNSAFE practices, specifically drawing the bow an an unsafe angle: Rule 7.7.7. And...it IS ENFORCED.
> NFAA has something there, but it is obscure and pretty much is left up to the shooters themselves to police....Yeah, right...
> ...


Supporters of sky drawing? :chortle: so when we say something to someone or teach them how to draw correctly that is supporting sky drawing? Interesting.......

Unsafe range practices...not sure how that came up. When we get trespassers or people in closed areas doing as they please that's our fault? Riiiiight. Every time it happens at a club I am at the people are stopped and talked to and the park rangers are notified. 


If someone wants to fight over me saying something about them drawing in an unsafe manner. Trust me I'm not gonna be the one that's worried about getting my butt kicked :chortle: Just like you said, point a gun in an unsafe manner and see how long you stay. Man up and do the same or at least approach them in a RESPECTFUL reasonable manner on the archery range and you will not have an issue. If you do maybe it's the way your approaching them that you need to look at. It's not an issue around here when I do it or anyone that I know has done it. 

Stop complaining about it on AT and complain...no speak to the people that all seem to be congregated in your area that are doing all this unsafe drawing. Or write an agenda item stating that people will be warned and then DQed or asked to leave if they can't draw their bow safely. It really isn't that hard to get it under control if the person doing the approaching does it correctly. 

Nobody said that it's safe. But if your not willing to make an attempt to fix the problem then you really can't complain can you? kind of like catching someone cheating and not turning them in. Or complaining about someone breaking a rule and not filing a protest. If your not willing to attempt to do anything about it then you really can't cry about it can you? Are you really worried about getting beat up if you say something?


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## field14 (May 21, 2002)

You misunderstand...there was a poll sometime back, and believe it or not...20% figured that sky drawing was NO BIG DEAL.
That is something that should be raising a red flag.

Don't go to shoot to have to baby-sit skydrawers and rules violators. However, as obvious as the unsafe practice is, if you approach somebody and tell them about a "problem", it is nice to have a rule to cite, other than just telling them it is unsafe. A potential response is "there aren't any rules against this, so go put it where the sun doesn't shine." At that point, you are screwed. I'm not going back out and search it right now...but I did read a "tournament Rule" that was put in place in their "tournament rules" that specifically dealt with...you guessed it "sky-drawing". Guess if the ASSOCIATION won't do anything about it, then the shoot hosts will. Sad that they don't get the backing of the ASSOCIATION, however.

Just sayin'...."SHOW ME THE RULE" has been used...For NFAA/WAF, there is only the ambiguous one...nothing concrete.

COMMON SENSE doesn't seem to prevail anymore...even when it comes to cheating. People are out there cheating openly or on the sly all the time, or pushing the rules to the limits; even filing lawsuits over rules they don't like. It isn't just in archery either.
field14 (Tom D.)


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## TNMAN (Oct 6, 2009)

Tom's correct. The FITA ruling I posted is outdated---replaced by changes valid on 1 Apr 2011. Sorry for the mistake.


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## CHPro (May 21, 2002)

> That is all the NFAA needs to do...



Lest you forget Tom, the NFAA that decides these things can only go by what is written up and submitted as an agenda item. The Directors/Councilman don't get to decide how to write these things up for the rule book and usually don't get to interpret what someone else already wrote up, submitted and they voted in after the fact. The "NFAA" you refer to would be us NFAA members working with our State Director or Councilman to draft an agenda item to make the change. I agree that FITA's rule regarding arrow wraps make a lot more sense than the current NFAA RIC interpretations or strict adherence to what's already been voted in. I'd be willing to bet if you showed Bob or Judy McC. the FITA wording you could talk them into drafting an agenda item proposing similar language for the NFAA rule book. Given this late date and nearness to the Annual Meeting they may have to try getting it through as a 15-signature item, but the rule makes enough sense that it may carry sufficient support to get to the floor and get passed. I'm sure if Judy is looking for supporters the WI Director could be counted on as one of the 15 needed to get this brought up for a vote. 

Just saying if you want to take the lead on this there is an avenue to get it brought up....... 

>>-------->


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