# Terry Ragsdale draw



## Mahly

That pretty much describes Alister Whittingham's style of draw he teaches.
Personal preference, both dudes shoot well.


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## unclejane

jelmore said:


> So I was watching a old video of Terry shooting in a tournament. I noticed when he draws, his bow arm is straight in front of his face and he draws it straight back. But if you watch almost any of the current pros they all seem to lift their bow arm and drawing arm a lot higher for their draw. Is this because of new bio mechanical information and training that the older guys didn't have? When you are working on your draw what do you concentrate on and why?


Bob Ragsdale talked about this many years ago, so this is not new. His analysis of this in his words, IIRC:"If you have to reach for the sky to rip it on back, your draw weight is probably too high". So in my view, it's probably mostly a symptom of being overbowed. 

A lot of the pros that aren't overbowed draw straight back a-la AW's advice, like Scott Starnes for example. He just pulls it back like butter, no idea how much poundage he pulls tho....

LS


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## ron w

there's a little difference in the dynamics of today's bow than the bows he shot, back then.


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## TNMAN

Looks like a Laser in the video---probably somewhere around 55% letoff. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7h1w1idw_5s

Terry Ragsdale's strength allowed him to handle a fairly heavy bow like a kid's 18 lb toy bow. That kind of strength is an advantage if a guy has all his other ducks in a row.

Most of today's pro's do draw a little higher than yesteryears pro's, but it has nothing to do with being over bowed.


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## unclejane

True about the bows, mostly the cams on our modern bows are vastly more aggressive than the typical wheels on bows in the 80's. My Supra Max IBOs at 320-330fps or something like that; even at its current 30lb setting it's a lot of work for me to draw back to the valley. 

So I think even at the same weights, today's shooters are generally doing a bunch more work drawing their bows back. So they're probably having to compensate with the reach-for-the-stars thing. OTOH, if it allows you to avoid injury, well, who cares lol....

LS


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## Mahly

A lot of it isn't because of a struggle to pull the weight, it simply "setting the shoulder" for the draw. 
I have experimented with it. You start pointing up a bit, and as you bring down the bow, once it's near level, that's when you start your draw.
One continuous motion, but the bow is level long before you even hit peak weight.


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## SonnyThomas

I pretty much try to draw with having my pin just a tad high over the bull's eye or wanted point of impact. I don't like searching for where to shoot. Most say I draw straight back.


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## Padgett

I love watching the only stinking video of Terry that i can ever find where he is in a shoot down, to me he is one of those pro shooters like jesse broadwater that when you watch them shoot everything they do makes perfect sense.


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## rsw

There are only 4-5 shooters to compare to Terry and a couple of them are from his era. Most if not all of us were self-trained, but Terry's dad worked with him all the time. Although the draw cycles are different today, bows from our era were just as difficult, if not more so, to draw. Letoff was more in the 55-65% range so our holding weight was higher. I suspect most of us were shooting around 56-58 pounds and many were down in the low 50s. In my humble opinion, Terry's form is perfect. Obviously, one can very successfully draw high and come down throughout he draw. I believe it is better to look at the target as though it just spoke to me, bring the bow up and aim at the spot (through the scope, but not through the peep) throughout the draw, and anchor/shoot without ever moving my head even a little bit until the arrow is in the target. Terry did essentially the same thing, I believe.


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## ron w

you're about right and if you've read some of his dad's writings about form, you'll notice that he puts a big emphasis on the "addressing the target" part of the shot process. it's the element that sets the "attitude" for a well executed shot.


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## jelmore

I watched Alistair whittinghams episode on the draw. He basically says bone to bone on bow arm then close the gap between the bicep and forearm on the draw arm then fit into the anchor. Like was said, this is pretty much what Terry does. I find it interesting that even before all the bio mechanical research and info, slow motion camera analysis etc. These shooters knew what good form was and could get the job done.


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## Padgett

You know this is something that i am interested in because I personally have modeled myself around the current pro shooters because I can watch them in videos and in person to see how they are doing things like drawing the bow. I really feel much more smoother raising the bow about 5 inches above level and just as it gets there very smoothly I start drawing and let the bow smoothly drop down back to the bulleseye. This makes the action effortless to me and I love it.

To me bringing the bow up to the bulleseye and then drawing straight back with my 52lb target bow isn't that big a deal and I will feel the back half of my body doing a little more work than normal but I don't think it is to much to ask of it. So I am going to do it tonight when I shoot. To me it isn't something that is tied to my execution in the grand scheme of things but it falls into the getting rid of garbage in your shot categorie, raising my bow like jesse broadwater a few inches above the spot and bringing it down to the spot as I draw could very well be garbage that is slowing down the beginning of my shot just enough to send me into the latter half of my shot sequence, it could also be adding to the muscle tension in my front arm since I use it to help smooth out the draw cycle. That muscle tension in the front half may be adding to my overall float pattern and by simply drawing straight back could eliminate this issue, that makes two things potentially that drawing straight back could offer me.

Right now I am really not missing hardly any x's at all so little things like this that could allow me to clean up and tighten up my shooting are what I am looking for. I am totally going to look for that video of terry shooting to watch him again right now.


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## Padgett

I just watched the little 4 minute video of him over and over shooting the shoot down and I have never watched it that closely, here are the things that surprised me:

1. Except for the one shot where the judge went down to check a arrow from the time he hooks the release on the string he never pauses and instantly starts the shot, he has the cam on his hip while waiting to shoot each shot but he basically loads the arrow and has his eyes on that job and watches himself attach the release and then starts drawing the bow.

2. The instant he raises the bow from his hip the draw cycle starts by him putting a little tension on the system as the bow is raising, you can see his front arm extend just a little and the release pull back just a little as he raises the bow. Also the bow is coming up at a angle from his right to the left a few inches to the where he will be aiming.

3. Now, just before he gets the bow all the way up just a couple inches from level he begins drawing the bow back so as the bow reaches level he is almost done drawing the bow straight back.

4. I was surprised that his head is down looking at putting the arrow on the string and hooking the bow and as he is bringing his head and eyes up to the spot to shoot he has already brought the cam off his hip and the bow is coming up to the spot right behind his head moving up to the spot so he comes to full draw very soon after his eyes have first focused on the spot.

5. The first time I watched this video I thought that he had a very long hold on the spot before firing the release but now that I have studied his shot very closely I see that in fact the amount of time that he is actually focused on the spot is way less than most of us, I personally get the arrow loaded and my release hooked up and then I look at the spot for a few seconds and then raise the bow while focusing on the spot and then as I drop the bow and pull the bow I am focused on the spot so I am focused on the spot almost twice as long as Terry.

6. The bow is coming to the spot at a slight angle from right to left so the few inches just before when he starts drawing the bow back the bow is moving at a angle as he draws instead of being stationary at the spot.


WOW, I can't believe that I had never slowed down to watch this master do his thing. Like I said my first impression of his shooting was that he was a very smooth shooter who drew straight back and settled in for a long time waiting for it to fire but in the end after studying him a little closer I see much more of the truth and it is totally different than I thought it would be.


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## bowfisher

Its way easier for me to draw the old 9'' brace height bows like that than the short brace bows of today. It may just be my body type (broad shoulders) but the shorter the brace the higher I seem to raise it to start.


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## Padgett

I was just noticing the same thing, I think that Terrys bow is a 9 or so brace height but Hall's bow is more like 12 or so inch brace height. That would make it way easier, also notice that Hall is bringing his bow up and he puts the bow level basically on the spot and then comes straight back. This is what I envisioned Terry doing and really wasn't overly interested in doing the same because I have done that method many times in the past. Terry is totally doing something different.


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## ron w

terry was a mason,....laying block and brick all day, as his occupation, if I recall. that activity really builds the muscles that are used drawing a bow and holding steady. just go pick up a 12 concrete block !....you'll see what I mean !. then imagine laying 150-200 of them a day.


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## markdenis

I shot beside Terry on many occasions and yes, he was an interesting person...quiet, very focused and super strong. I asked him once how much holding weight he was shooting. and he said "I pull it back until it stops then pull harder into the limbs, so I am not really sure."


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## ron w

yup, he is one of the people that started that whole , "solid wall" on a bow movement. his lasers, were set up with wheel diameters that fit his draw length , so that all he did was draw into the wheels full rotation and when the wheel couldn't rotate any further, the wall was there, because the cables were coming straight out of their holes,off the wheel, at the full draw angles. 
during that time, I had a PSE Citation riser, with laser limbs and tiny little 1-5/8 inch diameter wheels (27-1/4" draw length), built for me, by another PSE pro, that was terry's main competition at Vegas during those years. it worked the same way, and it was excellent, if I recall, the limbs were #3 Laser magnum target limbs, with the wide 1-5/8" wheels and a ton of brace height. using that bow, I won my division of the first tournament I ever entered. shortly after that, my bow case was stolen out of my truck and never recovered. I lost everything archery related that I had. it was all in that bow case !. I felt so bad when that happened, that I didn't want shoot for about two months !.


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## Padgett

I went to the bow shop last night and I did during warm ups draw my bow like I saw Terry in the video and it was nice and I could see how it is a good choice, I did have to think about the process to actually do it and in only 15 or so shots it wasn't going be something that I perfected but I did enjoy doing it.

What was really cool was that the moment that I went back to doing things the way I always do them my shot went right back to feeling perfect, which was a good reminder that picking a method and perfecting it is so important.


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## Padgett

I have reflected on his video all night and this morning and I think the one thing that to me I am going to take from watching him shoot is that he doesn't waste a bunch of time focusing on the spot he is going to aim at. I have been struggling for the last year of 3d and indoor with my eyes blurring during the second half of my firing engine the last 3 seconds of the shot. Terry comes to anchor and his eyes found the spot just a quarter second before getting to anchor, so then even though he has a nice smooth 6 or so second hold on the target before he fires his eyes have only been focusing for a short time.

Me personally I have been standing on the line with my bow resting on my hip and I start looking at the spot and then I smoothly raise the bow and draw and then settle in and then run my engine and I really think I have around 10 extra seconds of looking at the spot which puts me around 15 total seconds that I need my eyes to not blink or blurr as I look at the spot. 

I am not sure how I want to tweek my shooting just yet to reduce the time I spend looking at the spot but I I think that I am going to just pick a time in my draw cycle to uses as a trigger for when I start looking at the spot. I have a feeling that since I raise my bow a few inches above the spot and then lower it during the draw cycle I will use the highest point of raising the bow as my trigger. I will watch myself load the arrow and hook onto the loop and then watch the arrow on the rest as I raise the bow and then as it reaches the highest point I will look at the spot. This will put me looking at the spot about a quarter second before I come to anchor and put my total time focusing on the spot under 10 seconds. It only takes me a second or two to get settled in and then I run around a 5 second firing engine so I should be good to go.


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## ron w

yup, I think a lot of why people have so many problems, is because they fool around too much , trying different things they see, or hear about some pro doing, all the time. it gets to the point that their shot process, doesn't get a chance to develop the way it wants to work, intrinsically...it's always trying to figure out something new.


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## jelmore

Always interesting for me to hear about the history and background of a person who achieves at a high level like Terry, and how they develop into a champion. Sometimes it is superior technique, other times it may be a certain physical gift or just simply determination. Like was said in EPLCs thread, if you can hold steady your probably going to be a real good shooter. My question is, IS the "steady hold" really a gift or can following a proper step by step technique lead to it and help one attain it? Just like with golf, I listen to and respect the "experts" on theory but I also try to examine what the champion actually does which sometimes does not agree with the "experts".


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## ron w

good form and real good bow fit, is really the key. as far as strength is concerned, most everyone is naturally strong enough to have a steady hold, if they aren't over bowed. for fear of being chastised for referring to fundamentals, again. the fundamentals of decent form has been developed to have the best advantage of supporting a decent hold, in the presence of the tension your body is under during a shot.
that said, repetitious training does do some developmental improvement in this respect. the important aspect to that is that the training is done in acknowledgement of those fundamental elements....."perfect practice , practiced perfectly".


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## markdenis

ron w said:


> good form and real good bow fit, is really the key. as far as strength is concerned, most everyone is naturally strong enough to have a steady hold, if they aren't over bowed. for fear of being chastised for referring to fundamentals, again. the fundamentals of decent form has been developed to have the best advantage of supporting a decent hold, in the presence of the tension your body is under during a shot.
> that said, repetitious training does do some developmental improvement in this respect. the important aspect to that is that the training is done in acknowledgement of those fundamental elements....."perfect practice , practiced perfectly".


Respectfully, I disagree with "good form and real good bow fit, is really the key." The reason I say that is if you watch the pros now and in the past, there are endless numbers of different fit and form going on. Some have too short a draw, some too long...some do all kinds of stuff against the "perfect setup". 

It seems pros in this sport do whatever it takes to hold steady on the target...form and fit only comes into play if it works for them. If they stray from perfect form and fit, it is because it works better for them and they are not afraid to adapt.


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## Padgett

Ronw you are so right, in the past I would have possibly tried to change my shot to copy a shooter like Terry. I enjoyed reading about him and watching his 4 minute video for about a stinking hour yesterday and studying it really closely, I even enjoyed doing his draw cycle for a few shots in my warm up but thank god I am far enough along mentally to know that my shot process is really strong and doesn't need a overhaul.

That doesn't mean that I didn't get anything from studying him because I think that the excessive amount of looking at the 12 ring or vegas x is something that I can easily tweek in my shot process and solve my blurred view of the spot in the second half of my firing engine problem I have. To me these little tweeks in a really solid shot are the little things that may tighten me up just enough to prove really valuable.


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## markdenis

The best pros in this sport have found what works for them and lets them hold the steadiest on the X. It is impossible for them to do that without trial and error. To list the little tweaks and adjustments is probably endless, and I would guess it never stops for them.


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## ron w

both him, Michelle, and his dad, were real strong advocates of the "aim hard" agenda in archery. there are several articles or posts, in the OLD at archives by Michelle, that go into deep detail about it, she was much more present on AT than Terry was. I don't now if they can be brought up, but I clearly remember reading them and learning.
the inner advantage to this agenda, is that you have to find the stuff you like to use and stick with it, because as you get used to it, it becomes easier to develop association between the function of "aim hard", and your shot execution.
when you keep switching things around, you distract the formation of that association. you are consciously aiming and the recognition of that picture by your shot process, initiates the final stage of the shot's execution. ' bottom line, is that as much as you want to believe your shot runs completely sub consciously, it's motivation requires approval from your conscious sight, to proceed to the step, in the shot process. if there was no connection there, at all,..... there would be no control about when the shot happens.


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## Lazarus

ronw.......I don't really recall if Terry was a brick Mason or not. However, I don't believe he had layed tons of bricks when he set the record for the NFAA Field Nationals at Jay, Vermont in the Adult Male Freestyle division...........at age 18. Even when he was 16 he was solid as a rock. 

Your point is well taken though. It takes strength to hold a bow. Something that most in the archery community refuse to (1)admit and (2)talk about. Sure, there's been great shooters that have shot 28# bows really well. But none of them needed to hit a 3" dot at 60 yards repeatedly to win. That's where we're at now.


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## ron w

obviously, he wasn't a mason at 16..... or even 18, most likely. my recollection of his shooting was as he got older, when his adult occupation was a mason. at younger ages, people are more likely to stand out as a natural product of their youth.....that changes as people get older.....the playing field sort of levels out and it takes dedication and training to maintain similar level of performance that will bring you to the top.


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## Padgett

There are two things that I have been doing this winter that I really like that you have brought up in this thread that Terry was doing and reading them from you guys is really helping me have even more confidence in the things that are in my shot process.

1. I tweeked my draw length this winter and now when I come to draw and hit anchor I begin to settle in on the x and during that time I apply a good amount of back tension into the wall and I am holding a significantly more amount of poundage than if I was just sitting in the valley touching the wall like I have done in the past. When you talked about Terrys pse bow being rotated to where the the string came directly out of the cam and that allowed him to shoot with a back wall and pull bast the wall generating back tension.

2. "aim hard" I would love to read the articles or posts that the him and his wife made to see how they saw aiming. I feel like it relates to the focus that I have for my follow through to go into the x because this is directly related to letting my pin float very small and the follow through funneling into the absolute center of the x but these are thoughts I came up with on my own and hearing how they used analogies or certain phrases to direct their thoughts would be cool.


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## Lazarus

If you think about this Terry Ragsdale "hold" thing beyond the surface something lies much deeper. That 70's era was a time where nothing was impossible with a bow. Had it been accomplished? No, it still hasn't. However, most competitors knew the sky was the limit to what they could do. This attitude was brought on by all the brand new technology.Terry was a very quietly confident guy. I honestly don't think he thought he could not win, really. Yes, I said that bassackwards, I didn't say "he didn't think he could be beat" because he was humble. I just don't think in that 1973 and beyond era he thought he wouldn't win when he showed up. He was major confident because he was on his game and had some really innovative toys to play with. 

Imagine what winning like that at a young age can do for your confidence. He beat all of the men at Jay, Vermont while setting the record. He was tied with Gale Cavallin (the Pro leader) going in to the last day. The Pro's shot a different target the last day than the open guys. So we'll never know if he would have been the top Male shooter at the tournament. 

I say all that to say this; He had an advantage in that era because as I said earlier, the sky was the limit. And this; there was no well meaning mid-level Pro's running around all the time telling him he couldn't hold that steady. In that era folks in the compound world didn't use the hideous term "float" at every turn. He held his bow still because that's what you did. Just like you should today if you want to win.


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## ron w

I guess all those archives were lost when AT had it's big crash about 2005, or so. as I recall, it was off line for several days.
they were good reading...... Michelle had a knack for getting her ideas across in type.


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## markdenis

Lazarus said:


> If you think about this Terry Ragsdale "hold" thing beyond the surface something lies much deeper. That 70's era was a time where nothing was impossible with a bow. Had it been accomplished? No, it still hasn't. However, most competitors knew the sky was the limit to what they could do. This attitude was brought on by all the brand new technology.Terry was a very quietly confident guy. I honestly don't think he thought he could not win, really. Yes, I said that bassackwards, I didn't say "he didn't think he could be beat" because he was humble. I just don't think in that 1973 and beyond era he thought he wouldn't win when he showed up. He was major confident because he was on his game and had some really innovative toys to play with.
> 
> Imagine what winning like that at a young age can do for your confidence. He beat all of the men at Jay, Vermont while setting the record. He was tied with Gale Cavallin (the Pro leader) going in to the last day. The Pro's shot a different target the last day than the open guys. So we'll never know if he would have been the top Male shooter at the tournament.
> 
> I say all that to say this; He had an advantage in that era because as I said earlier, the sky was the limit. And this; there was no well meaning mid-level Pro's running around all the time telling him he couldn't hold that steady. *In that era folks in the compound world didn't use the hideous term "float" at every turn.* He held his bow still because that's what you did. Just like you should today if you want to win.



I still don't subscribe to floating around in the dot is the way to learn to shoot, and that it will produce archers who can consistently shoot winning scores. I think it is a bad way to teach. You can't shoot 60 X's by floating round in the dot. I bet Jesse and some of the other pros who consistently shoot 60 X's don't float around in the dot. I bet the stay in the X ring nearly 100% of the time. That is the way they learn not to miss the X.


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## Mahly

Back to his draw vs. Most modern shooters, I feel some of it is due to brace height. He looks to have a shorter draw length, couple that with a bow that as someone suggested, was the generous side of 9" and your already at the same point in the draw curve as an archer with a shorter brace, especially if he has a longer draw length.


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## PSE Archer

Around 26 years later. Different bow. Different release. Same draw cycle. 2nd arrow - a busted nock. 






I believe Toby recorded this video of Terry.


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## Mulley1951

Thanks for the post ,I just got back into competitive shooting a year ago,I shot archery back in the 80's and seen Terry at alot of shoots only talked to him one time seemed like a nice guy. I didn't realize he is 10 years younger than me.


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## Padgett

markdennis, those of us talking about floating around in the dot are talking about floating inside the 5-spot x. When I shoot with a .19 3d pin I am floating completely inside the x on a five spot target and a 10 ring on a vegas target. When I am shooting really good I am able to float completely inside the x for up to 50 or so shots and then a shot or so I will have some float touch the line a little but on those it doesn't mean I don't get a inside out x it just means that for am moment the pin touched the line. On a average day when I am not missing x's but I am having many of them touching the line on the outer edge my pin is floating on the line on a regular basis enough that a percentage of them are hitting the line dead on or slightly on the outer edge.

I am just a amateur shooter so for a guy like terry I have a feeling his pin would be a good 1/8 inch inside a 5-spot x most of the time and never float over to the line.


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## markdenis

Padgett said:


> markdennis, those of us talking about floating around in the dot are talking about floating inside the 5-spot x. When I shoot with a .19 3d pin I am floating completely inside the x on a five spot target and a 10 ring on a vegas target. When I am shooting really good I am able to float completely inside the x for up to 50 or so shots and then a shot or so I will have some float touch the line a little but on those it doesn't mean I don't get a inside out x it just means that for am moment the pin touched the line. On a average day when I am not missing x's but I am having many of them touching the line on the outer edge my pin is floating on the line on a regular basis enough that a percentage of them are hitting the line dead on or slightly on the outer edge.
> 
> I am just a amateur shooter so for a guy like terry I have a feeling his pin would be a good 1/8 inch inside a 5-spot x most of the time and never float over to the line.


Of course I agree to that kind of float...inside the X, but the term "float" is usually referred to floating within the entire dot of which I don't agree with.


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## ron w

i'll agree, you can't have a float range that big, and expect to nail the center every shot. that may be the reason rings aren't as popular as dots. with a ring, the idea is for it to be big enough to see through it, to the x ring. the bigger the ring is the less noticeable float is. consequently, it does to some degree impede the exact accuracy needed to hit x's every shot, by allowing you to accept a sloppier float. the give and take of it is that if you having trouble motivating your execution, a ring will allow the development of that motivation, at the expense of maybe a bit less precision. the issue becomes, the need to learn to trust your float by allowing the development of your shot execution despite your float being somewhat unnoticeably large, vs. the frequency of letdowns from the appearance of unacceptable float, with a dot.
which is the better of two evils ?.


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## rsw

I had the pleasure of shooting with/against Terry many, many times early in our careers. He is easily in the top 1 - 5 best archers ever. He certainly was among the very elite competitors ever. Perfect, flawless execution on every Vegas round shot I ever witnessed him shoot except for one shot - the one time I beat him indoors. It took back to back 560s to beat him in the TFAA State Field - obviously I was quite lucky then also. That was the helpless feeling one had as his competitor - most of us knew we were shooting for 2nd place even during his teen years.

The bottom line is that he was a top contender in every event he entered going in from his teenage years until he retired. When you view his indoor record, it is almost blemish free and I suspect he averaged about 555 on a field round at the championship level. Current shooters might not think that is so outstanding, but remember he was shooting antique equipment compared to modern gear. I have absolutely no doubt, given today's modern technology, Terry would be a very consistent 560 shooter - a favorite going in every time. That was his competitive nature and skill level. Even with that old gear, his Vegas round targets usually had a single little hole dead center in the target - what today would have been many, many 30 X rounds over his career. Indoors, I suspect he would still be a dominant shooter.

I don't know what he might have done as a youngster - mason? But his adult career was with PSE and not a brick mason.


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## 2little2late

I have an old vhs tape of him aiming with a laser pointer on his bow. His dot would have been well within the 10. I have to see if I can find it and watch it again. Any thing close to a clean shot and the middle would be his.


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## ron w

yup I remember that vhs. from about 75-76 maybe. about the time was basically "unbeatable". If I recall, it was done by some college coach, studying just how steady the top pros and college shooters hold.
the main focus was that as they build tension in their shot, the laser dot comes to almost a dead stop, just before the shot breaks.


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## markdenis

ron w said:


> yup I remember that vhs. from about 75-76 maybe. about the time was basically "unbeatable". If I recall, it was done by some college coach, studying just how steady the top pros and college shooters hold.
> the main focus was that as they *build tension* in their shot, the laser dot comes to almost a dead stop, just before the shot breaks.


Interesting that archery taught now is opposite of "building tension". Now it is all about relax, relax, relax.


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## ron w

the process of executing a good shot, hasn't really changed much at all since then. we still need to build a certain amount of tension as the shot develops, simply to get the shot to break. the idea of "relax", is that we must build that necessary tension, while still remaining as relaxed as we can, for the advantage of our sight alignment and float range .
it is the primary criteria of having our draw length exactly correct.


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## markdenis

ron w said:


> the process of executing a good shot, hasn't really changed much at all since then. we still need to build a certain amount of tension as the shot develops, simply to get the shot to break. the idea of "relax", is that we must build that necessary tension, while still remaining as relaxed as we can, for the advantage of our sight alignment and float range .
> it is the primary criteria of having our draw length exactly correct.


I wish Terry would get on here and tell us his shot routine. Of course it is only my opinion, but I think there was no relaxing in his shot. I bet when he started his draw and continued his shot execution he powered it through all the way....no relaxing. Granted, he may have maintained a few positions and muscle tension while at full draw, but it appeared he did not lose anything, no muscle relaxing, no melting hand, not anything but power all the way until the shot was fired.


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## Pete53

MR. Terry Ragsdale was a great archer including his wife michele, i seen michele and terry ragsdale shooting a few times both nice to talk too. but i think Terry and Michele both are burned out on archery ,back in ragsdale`s era they never made a ton of money,so they had other jobs too and a family. because of family time,money, jobs and just getting older maybe they just don`t have time for archery anymore ? but i bet if they came back to shoot in the senior divisions they both would do very well. a couple of years ago i did get to shoot with the great Jim Poen and sat and talked with jim all day, so sometimes they do come back.we can only hope ??


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## SonnyThomas

I don't know if they were burned out. I understood there was a health issue in the family and they wished to dedicate their full attention....Last I heard archery wise was of Michele on-hand when Ginger Moorehead broke her New York (?) record. Other, I read and saw pictures of Michele in some Iron Man, Woman?, events....


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## unclejane

Michelle Ragsdale was actually my first archery hero. IIRC, it was because my 2nd bow (and the one I ruined my right chest area with) was an older PSE wheel bow with way too much poundage. But MR shot a PSE so I started following her shooting. Now there's only one video of her on youtube that talks about her follow through technique - but I learned loads and loads about archery reading her writings here and there where I could find them. Then I found Bob Ragsdale's column and.. let's see... the next thing I remember was waking up this morning.... 

I'm only learning about TR's career recently after the fact and, of course, what a champion for our sport... 

Since I'm 52 I think I'm most inspired by comebacks and/or archers who continue to be champions for a long time (like Dee Wilde, Butch Johnson, Ed Eliason and all the others that are still shooting at very high/championship levels). So I'd love to see TR return to the sport too.

LS


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## ron w

she was on here a lot more than Terry. actually, her and BOB R. both, were on here a lot more than Terry. Bob was a big proponent of the "let-down drill", and "drills", of various types, in general. the application of your mental game to the drills was a subject he spoke on, often.


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## field14

rsw said:


> I had the pleasure of shooting with/against Terry many, many times early in our careers. He is easily in the top 1 - 5 best archers ever. He certainly was among the very elite competitors ever. Perfect, flawless execution on every Vegas round shot I ever witnessed him shoot except for one shot - the one time I beat him indoors. It took back to back 560s to beat him in the TFAA State Field - obviously I was quite lucky then also. That was the helpless feeling one had as his competitor - most of us knew we were shooting for 2nd place even during his teen years.
> 
> The bottom line is that he was a top contender in every event he entered going in from his teenage years until he retired. When you view his indoor record, it is almost blemish free and I suspect he averaged about 555 on a field round at the championship level. Current shooters might not think that is so outstanding, but remember he was shooting antique equipment compared to modern gear. I have absolutely no doubt, given today's modern technology, Terry would be a very consistent 560 shooter - a favorite going in every time. That was his competitive nature and skill level. Even with that old gear, his Vegas round targets usually had a single little hole dead center in the target - what today would have been many, many 30 X rounds over his career. Indoors, I suspect he would still be a dominant shooter.
> 
> I don't know what he might have done as a youngster - mason? But his adult career was with PSE and not a brick mason.


Let's talk about shooting PERFECT 1200's at both Vegas and Cobo Hall in the same year, with two different bows. Both of which were having some sort of "failure" during the events! Yes, I said back to back PERFECT 1,200 scores at Vegas AND Cobo Hall!
Back then, the format was 450 round on Friday, 450 round on Saturday, and 300 round on Sunday, for 1,200 possible! 
IF I recall correctly, at Vegas, the bowstring was failing and Terry had to adjust on the go by clicking his sight. He finished the event clean in spite of this. Dacron bowstring, wheely bow, springie arrow rest. 
At Cobo Hall, it was a different bow, and the story goes that the cam lean was so bad that they didn't know if the bow would hold together and he was shooting what it took to make the bow shoot correctly, as in reverse tiller. This may be an exaggeration that has grown over the years, but his PERFECT 1,200 score for that tournament is NOT an exaggeration!

Nor is his first ever perfect 560 in NATIONAL competition an exaggeration either...There weren't any "apps" to give sight settings, there weren't any "clinomoters" or electronic aids for "the cuts", springie shoot around arrow rest, to boot. My oh my if he would have had today's advances in bow and string materials!!!

I remember the story about Terry shooting a "17" on a target and still finish with a 557 for the day. The story goes that when he dropped his 3rd arrow out the bottom of the spot (it was a chip shot target, to boot, so I heard), Terry said, "I knew that arrow would be low when I could see the tips of my shoes in the bottom of my scope."
I hold Terry and his prowess and professionalism in the highest regard. Sure wish both him and Michelle would come back to competitive shooting more on a full time basis...and rock the senior, or maybe even the Pro Division again!

field14 (Tom D.)


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## unclejane

ron w said:


> she was on here a lot more than Terry. actually, her and BOB R. both, were on here a lot more than Terry. Bob was a big proponent of the "let-down drill", and "drills", of various types, in general. the application of your mental game to the drills was a subject he spoke on, often.


Well my favorites were BR's columns on tuning and equipment. He always absolutely just told it like it was - he was always talking about archers' obsessive/compulsive disorders about the little details of equipment that didn't really matter. I was always LOL... But his mantra was best possible arrow spine, knocking point and centershot - don't sweat anything else unless it's just visibly way way off or screwed up. "if I make this change, how much is it guaranteed to improve my score with no other effort on my part?". 

I'm kind of a gearhead and even worse of a tuning Nazi, so I can get really obsessive about my gear (your kiddo can outshoot me eyes closed, but hey I got my bow shooting a good bareshaft at 20 yards!). So BR's columns were always totally refreshing to me.

As for drills, that's what I liked also. A really new-age, spiritual, etc. approach to archery (or anything else really) just doesn't work for me - I need something real that I can actually go do and practice till I got it down, so if it doesn't actually exist I have no interest in it lol. So I really liked that about BR too.

LS


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## SonnyThomas

Bob Ragsdale....Grrrrrr. Great as he might be...I take a lot of his articles relating to the public as kids..."You can't hit a 50 yard bull's eye if you have your sight set to 49." No chit?! Quite happily I read one of his articles of setting up a newbie. Straight forward, no bare shaft stuff or outrageous correcting of cam lean and other "you gotta do" things. He had the young man in the middle of the pack the first time out and "learned" he began running with the "big dogs" of the surrounding archery clubs. Sorry, 3D was the game.
And then Bob had to go tromping in my former play ground, precision rifle shooting...A little more than bent out of shape I sent a letter to the magazine and pretty much ripped their editor letting such BS be put to print. I offered others to contact. Later, I got a letter stating what I had said was very much true, but had no control over what one put in a article....Said, I still read his articles, but I'm on guard.


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## unclejane

SonnyThomas said:


> Bob Ragsdale....Grrrrrr. Great as he might be...I take a lot of his articles relating to the public as kids..."You can't hit a 50 yard bull's eye if you have your sight set to 49." No chit?! Quite happily I read one of his articles of setting up a newbie. Straight forward, no bare shaft stuff or outrageous correcting of cam lean and other "you gotta do" things. He had the young man in the middle of the pack the first time out and "learned" he began running with the "big dogs" of the surrounding archery clubs. Sorry, 3D was the game.
> And then Bob had to go tromping in my former play ground, precision rifle shooting...A little more than bent out of shape I sent a letter to the magazine and pretty much ripped their editor letting such BS be put to print. I offered others to contact. Later, I got a letter stating what I had said was very much true, but had no control over what one put in a article....Said, I still read his articles, but I'm on guard.


Yeah like I said, he told it like it was and he didn't sugar coat anything. That was part of what I really liked about him - if he thought something was wrong or dumb, etc. he said it was wrong or dumb..... I do that too, which is why I often end up on ignore lists and such lol.

LS


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## SonnyThomas

Well, don't relate of me being still in Sand Box class and don't talk over my head and I'm agreeable....sometimes.


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## field14

SonnyThomas said:


> Bob Ragsdale....Grrrrrr. Great as he might be...I take a lot of his articles relating to the public as kids..."You can't hit a 50 yard bull's eye if you have your sight set to 49." No chit?! Quite happily I read one of his articles of setting up a newbie. Straight forward, no bare shaft stuff or outrageous correcting of cam lean and other "you gotta do" things. He had the young man in the middle of the pack the first time out and "learned" he began running with the "big dogs" of the surrounding archery clubs. Sorry, 3D was the game.
> And then Bob had to go tromping in my former play ground, precision rifle shooting...A little more than bent out of shape I sent a letter to the magazine and pretty much ripped their editor letting such BS be put to print. I offered others to contact. Later, I got a letter stating what I had said was very much true, but had no control over what one put in a article....Said, I still read his articles, but I'm on guard.


Are you aware, Sonny, that Bob Ragsdale, to my recollection was a MARINE rifle/marksmanship instructor? I don't know if you knew that about his past or not. You don't get to be a MARINE (or any other Armed Forces) rifle instructor unless you know exactly what you are doing and PROVE IT on the rifle range! Yes, he called the kettle black, but NO, he didn't "meddle" in your back yard! Yes, rifle shooting differs in many respects from shooting a bow...and in long distance rifle shooting, that game is TOUGHER, IMHO.

Just so you know, if you didn't know it in the past.

field14 (Tom D.)


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## redman

They did it all with springie arrow rest


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## rsw

Hey! What's wrong with the springie? I shot many, many 550s and 300s with that beautiful little arrow rest. I have even thought about trying it again. Like a launcher, it is pretty failure free and simple as well. Never shot carbon through one though.


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## ron w

the springies were great rests.


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## montigre

rsw said:


> Hey! What's wrong with the springie? I shot many, many 550s and 300s with that beautiful little arrow rest. I have even thought about trying it again. Like a launcher, it is pretty failure free and simple as well. Never shot carbon through one though.


I also really like the springie--can't get much simpler.... but I don't think they can handle the energy produced by today's modern cam systems...


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## Lazarus

rsw said:


> Hey! What's wrong with the springie? I shot many, many 550s and 300s with that beautiful little arrow rest. I have even thought about trying it again. Like a launcher, it is pretty failure free and simple as well. Never shot carbon through one though.


I concur! They were awesome! They had one key feature that many people didn't know about though. They had a unique tune indicator built in. If an arrow straightened it out, that indicated that you were out of tune. This is not a theory. I proved it as fact. :wink:

I miss those days. Gone too soon.


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## SonnyThomas

field14 said:


> Are you aware, Sonny, that Bob Ragsdale, to my recollection was a MARINE rifle/marksmanship instructor? I don't know if you knew that about his past or not. You don't get to be a MARINE (or any other Armed Forces) rifle instructor unless you know exactly what you are doing and PROVE IT on the rifle range! Yes, he called the kettle black, but NO, he didn't "meddle" in your back yard! Yes, rifle shooting differs in many respects from shooting a bow...and in long distance rifle shooting, that game is TOUGHER, IMHO.
> 
> Just so you know, if you didn't know it in the past.
> 
> field14 (Tom D.)


Tom, I did know Bob was up a notch of rifle shooting. That's what ticked me, trying compare a bow with a rifle in the instance of his article...Much can related between the bow and rifle, but not how he set it to print. He didn't separate the different events of precision rifle. My last go was off bench rest and group only counted. There was no subtraction of being off bull's eye, it was group only and we shot five 5 shot groups for a average.... I also competed in Hunter, limited to scope power and type of rest. Best I could do was 1.7???" C/C for 3 shots at 300 yards. I still have that rifle....
Still, someone checked on what I was ticked off about and said I was correct.


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## TNMAN

ron w said:


> terry was a mason,....laying block and brick all day, as his occupation, if I recall. that activity really builds the muscles that are used drawing a bow and holding steady. just go pick up a 12 concrete block !....you'll see what I mean !. then imagine laying 150-200 of them a day.


Ron, you were thinking of Levi Morgan. His Dad was a mason, and Levi was following in his footsteps until he was able to put it all together and start winning in pro 3D. Levi talks about this in the latest CAM podcast. CAM Podcast - Levi Morgan (2021 ASA Hoyt Pro/Am)


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## centershot

ron w said:


> good form and real good bow fit, is really the key. as far as strength is concerned, most everyone is naturally strong enough to have a steady hold, if they aren't over bowed. for fear of being chastised for referring to fundamentals, again. the fundamentals of decent form has been developed to have the best advantage of supporting a decent hold, in the presence of the tension your body is under during a shot.
> that said, repetitious training does do some developmental improvement in this respect. the important aspect to that is that the training is done in acknowledgement of those fundamental elements....."perfect practice , practiced perfectly".


I remember reading about Michelle Ragsdale taking up to two weeks getting her draw length just right when she got a new bow...........


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## centershot

Lazarus said:


> If you think about this Terry Ragsdale "hold" thing beyond the surface something lies much deeper. That 70's era was a time where nothing was impossible with a bow. Had it been accomplished? No, it still hasn't. However, most competitors knew the sky was the limit to what they could do. This attitude was brought on by all the brand new technology.Terry was a very quietly confident guy. I honestly don't think he thought he could not win, really. Yes, I said that bassackwards, I didn't say "he didn't think he could be beat" because he was humble. I just don't think in that 1973 and beyond era he thought he wouldn't win when he showed up. He was major confident because he was on his game and had some really innovative toys to play with.
> 
> *Imagine what winning like that at a young age can do for your confidence.* He beat all of the men at Jay, Vermont while setting the record. He was tied with Gale Cavallin (the Pro leader) going in to the last day. The Pro's shot a different target the last day than the open guys. So we'll never know if he would have been the top Male shooter at the tournament.
> 
> I say all that to say this; He had an advantage in that era because as I said earlier, the sky was the limit. And this; there was no well meaning mid-level Pro's running around all the time telling him he couldn't hold that steady. In that era folks in the compound world didn't use the hideous term "float" at every turn. He held his bow still because that's what you did. Just like you should today if you want to win.


Kyle Douglas? Kid just pulled off the double double. He won both Vegas and Indoor Nationals 2 years running. I think he is 22 or 23 years old.


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## FiFi

markdenis said:


> I still don't subscribe to floating around in the dot is the way to learn to shoot, and that it will produce archers who can consistently shoot winning scores. I think it is a bad way to teach. You can't shoot 60 X's by floating round in the dot. I bet Jesse and some of the other pros who consistently shoot 60 X's don't float around in the dot. I bet the stay in the X ring nearly 100% of the time. That is the way they learn not to miss the X.



You would be very wrong in that assumption, having shot with so many of the Pros over the decades most will allude to not holding still but letting it hold still, their float is inside the ten ring where most are not, this is archery fit. This is done by many different avenues to placate the mind to execute a good shot. I shot with Jack Cramer a few times and when I asked how still do you hold he simply said "I don't " or in classic Terry R, (question) what do you do when the dot leaves the ten ring (response) "when I do what?? " keeping any sort of negativity away plays a high role


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## FiFi

ron w said:


> the springies were great rests.


Bob Fazio made the best springys IMO


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## Steven Bressan

jelmore said:


> So I was watching a old video of Terry shooting in a tournament. I noticed when he draws, his bow arm is straight in front of his face and he draws it straight back. But if you watch almost any of the current pros they all seem to lift their bow arm and drawing arm a lot higher for their draw. Is this because of new bio mechanical information and training that the older guys didn't have? When you are working on your draw what do you concentrate on and why?


Lifting your arm is probably because they are over bowed. It should be done just the way Terry did it. Put the bow in front of you and simply draw straight back.


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## ahunter55

I had a shop/lanes back in Illinois when PSE was there 70s. I actually had 2 shops/lanes 60 miles apart for 5 of those years. Anyway, I would sponsor a couple small Pro/ams in the winter months. Terry shows up, puts a new peep in his PSE, shoots his 5 practise & proceeds to win with a 300.. The man was a machine. I also saw Ed Rhode (Iowa) do that in my 1st shop with a Pearson Recurve & Fingers. 5 practise & a 300... Some "just have it".... I was fortunate (or unfortunate) to shoot many tournaments where these fellas participated. We have had some unbelievable archers over many years. When in the Navy & stationed in N.C. for awhile I was able to shoot their NFAA Field Championships in 1960. I was a 18 year old wood arrow, recurve, barebow shooter. I was put with 1 other bare Bow shooter & a sight shooter (Rare back then).. I had "no idea" who they were until like a year later but they were super shooters & great to me. I had shot with O.K. Smathers & Si Graham (look em up) World champion archer & a man that did tons for NC. archery/bowhunting..


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