# NFAA agenda items



## brtesite (May 24, 2002)

Any one wishing to have any rule changes for next year must have their directors submit agendas by Sept 30 .
it really don't have to be rules, as they can be policy changes also.
If you want it talked about , Sept 30 is it


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## grantmac (May 31, 2007)

Recurve barebow!


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## fun4afew (Dec 9, 2005)

Youth divisions include bow hunter freestyle!


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## brtesite (May 24, 2002)

fun4afew said:


> Youth divisions include bow hunter freestyle!


 It is all well & good to post them here, but unless you get the directors to write them up & submit them, they will stay here


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## fun4afew (Dec 9, 2005)

The problem with that is so few Nfaa directors have anything to do with working with our youth archers.


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## USNarcher (Oct 12, 2002)

fun4afew said:


> The problem with that is so few Nfaa directors have anything to do with working with our youth archers.


This is not true. There were emails exchanged amongst our rankes a few months ago discussing the youth archers and shooting equipment. No one is excluded. If you want something you have to ask. State directors are YOUR voice to the NFAA


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## pilotmill (Dec 10, 2008)

I agree with Grantmac, recurve BB to align the rules with IFAA and NAA on barebow shooting.


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## grantmac (May 31, 2007)

pilotmill said:


> I agree with Grantmac, recurve BB to align the rules with IFAA and NAA on barebow shooting.


Exactly! I just want to be able to shoot with as many Orgs as possible with my equipment. Right now its NFAA on one hand and pretty much everyone else on the other.

Just put BB and BH into one category (they score the same anyways).


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## 2413gary (Apr 10, 2008)

Most likely never happen this is what I would do and I know some would not like it but we need more shooter at our NFAA shoots.
Freestyle 
Freestyle Lmt.
Barebow 
Recurve
Longbow
Then set the rules for BB and Recurve the same as IFAA shoot how you want just no sight. This would double the size of each division. And put the word competition back in archery instead of everybody getting an award for showing up. And just one Seinor division for each style. Every time we add a new class it just makes the award easier and CHEAPER. This should be done at IFAA also we need more than 2 shooter at a World tournament in each class. Then winning will mean something again!!
Gary


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## grantmac (May 31, 2007)

Freestyle LMT and Compound BB are dying classes, BH is debatable. Sure they have history but that is all thats keeping them alive.
BHFS will always be popular with Freestyle starting to taking a back seat even though the scores are nearly identical.

Look at the other Orgs and see where the growth is. FITA (WA) has ONE compound class! One Freestyle recurve class, One BB class.

Makes it a lot easier to have a team championship when you don't need 18 people to make-up a team.


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## rsw (May 22, 2002)

Instead of adding more classes/divisions, lets think about improvement. Delete at least 1/2 of the 1-2 person classes we already have.

Fingers, releases, sights, no sights and that is enough. As it is now, everybody has their own little class with zero competition outside of freestyle and bowhunter which belong in the same class anyway since we have changed so many bowhunter rules to allow evrything.


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## brtesite (May 24, 2002)

does every one realize that there are over 70 possible national champions available. . At state championships, with the low turnouts, every one that shows up can be a state champion. 
It has been said before,that shoot what you bring & shoot against a score. does it really matter how a 500 was shot. BB or FS the score is the same. 
Think about it. The rules would very simple. Any one who wishes to shoot the style they really like can always do so.


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## grantmac (May 31, 2007)

brtesite said:


> does every one realize that there are over 70 possible national champions available. . At state championships, with the low turnouts, every one that shows up can be a state champion.
> It has been said before,that shoot what you bring & shoot against a score. does it really matter how a 500 was shot. BB or FS the score is the same.
> Think about it. The rules would very simple. Any one who wishes to shoot the style they really like can always do so.


So what, everyone shoots freestyle or can't compete? Where do the recurve archers go? How about being able to shoot with almost every other organization without having to change equipment or technique?


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## 2413gary (Apr 10, 2008)

Mike this exactly why I am saying combine some of our classes just didn't want to cut them off at the knees and have only one class but it would almost cut them in half
Gary


brtesite said:


> does every one realize that there are over 70 possible national champions available. . At state championships, with the low turnouts, every one that shows up can be a state champion.
> It has been said before,that shoot what you bring & shoot against a score. does it really matter how a 500 was shot. BB or FS the score is the same.
> Think about it. The rules would very simple. Any one who wishes to shoot the style they really like can always do so.


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## itbeso (Jul 6, 2005)

brtesite said:


> does every one realize that there are over 70 possible national champions available. . At state championships, with the low turnouts, every one that shows up can be a state champion.
> It has been said before,that shoot what you bring & shoot against a score. does it really matter how a 500 was shot. BB or FS the score is the same.
> Think about it. The rules would very simple. Any one who wishes to shoot the style they really like can always do so.


Mike, you are right that we have too many cflasses but you have to bear as much responsibility or more than most as you have been around forever and keep voting in more classes. Have some backbone for a change and get the nfaa setting the example for other orgs.


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## brtesite (May 24, 2002)

itbeso said:


> Mike, you are right that we have too many cflasses but you have to bear as much responsibility or more than most as you have been around forever and keep voting in more classes. Have some backbone for a change and get the nfaa setting the example for other orgs.


I may have been around for a long time, but I don't think you can find where I have voted for more classes
As for the back bone comment, I am not in any position to have any say in what goes on


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## brtesite (May 24, 2002)

grantmac said:


> So what, everyone shoots freestyle or can't compete? Where do the recurve archers go? How about being able to shoot with almost every other organization without having to change equipment or technique?


 Grant, I don't believe that you understand the concept. the recurve archer will shoot against who ever is shooting the same score as they are. If you shoot a 450, & the FS shoots a 450, what is the difference. The score is the same. Don't tell me that the FS has an advantage. This way , the recurve archer would not have to change equipment or technique to shoot in other organizations.
But take heart, you don't have to worry, it will never happen because of the mind set.


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## itbeso (Jul 6, 2005)

brtesite said:


> Grant, I don't believe that you understand the concept. the recurve archer will shoot against who ever is shooting the same score as they are. If you shoot a 450, & the FS shoots a 450, what is the difference. The score is the same. Don't tell me that the FS has an advantage. This way , the recurve archer would not have to change equipment or technique to shoot in other organizations.
> But take heart, you don't have to worry, it will never happen because of the mind set.


Mike, It makes a big difference on what style is used in flight shooting, just look at Vegas. 290-290 on the first two days becomes 290-290-299 on the last day. It's called SANDBAGGING.


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## brtesite (May 24, 2002)

itbeso said:


> Mike, It makes a big difference on what style is used in flight shooting, just look at Vegas. 290-290 on the first two days becomes 290-290-299 on the last day. It's called SANDBAGGING.


I tried to find that score, but I didn't know where to look.
I don't know how you can ever stop Sandbaggers


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## itbeso (Jul 6, 2005)

brtesite said:


> I tried to find that score, but I didn't know where to look.
> I don't know how you can ever stop Sandbaggers


Mike, 2012 Vegas shoot---flight 11-----287-291-299 The winner!!! You are right about not being able to stop sandbagging, so lets get back to four classes and have some real champions.


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## brtesite (May 24, 2002)

itbeso said:


> Mike, 2012 Vegas shoot---flight 11-----287-291-299 The winner!!! You are right about not being able to stop sandbagging, so lets get back to four classes and have some real champions.


looking at the scores, i don't think it was sandbagging. He only won on X's. that's kind of hard to control. The next 5 shooters were tied also but ranked by the X's


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## itbeso (Jul 6, 2005)

brtesite said:


> looking at the scores, i don't think it was sandbagging. He only won on X's. that's kind of hard to control. The next 5 shooters were tied also but ranked by the X's


Mike, with all due respect to all the years you have been in office, I can't believe that you are seeing the picture here. 11th flight 289 average the first two days. 299 the last day and tied with another sandy who "only" shot 298. Every flight except flight one follows the same pattern. We need people running the Nfaa who at least have competed at one time or another to understand and listen to the concerns of the current competitors and clubs. Less classes!!!


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## itbeso (Jul 6, 2005)

Mike, the other point I would like to make is that the Nfaa only seems to listen to the new archers coming into the sport. They look around or go to a couple of shoots, decide they aren't shooting as well as established archers so immediately look for a new class because they don't want to put in the time and effort to compete with the best.And once they say they won't stay unless they have their own class, The Nfaa trips all over itself to accomodate them. I'm looking forward to the day when all the archers who have been in the sport for decades, band together and give the Nfaa an ultimatum. Maybe that is what it will take to make you guys wake up.


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## nock tune (Jul 5, 2009)

Mike, I see what you point is about having classes based on score as apposed to style, and it can work, South Jersey's TCAA has been doing that for ever and it works!
PS, sure hope I did'nt misspell any words!


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## xring1 (May 28, 2008)

brtesite said:


> I may have been around for a long time, but I don't think you can find where I have voted for more classes
> As for the back bone comment, I am not in any position to have any say in what goes on


maybe thats why youre not in that position any more!!!


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## brtesite (May 24, 2002)

itbeso said:


> Mike, the other point I would like to make is that the Nfaa only seems to listen to the new archers coming into the sport. They look around or go to a couple of shoots, decide they aren't shooting as well as established archers so immediately look for a new class because they don't want to put in the time and effort to compete with the best.And once they say they won't stay unless they have their own class, The Nfaa trips all over itself to accomodate them. I'm looking forward to the day when all the archers who have been in the sport for decades, band together and give the Nfaa an ultimatum. Maybe that is what it will take to make you guys wake up.


who in the Nfaa would get this ultimatum


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## brtesite (May 24, 2002)

nock tune said:


> Mike, I see what you point is about having classes based on score as apposed to style, and it can work, South Jersey's TCAA has been doing that for ever and it works!
> PS, sure hope I did'nt misspell any words!


Dave , I don't believe that it will ever happen. You can't convince a non sight shooting against the sight that they don't have an advantage because they have a sight. This has been debated hundreds of times with no progress.
Every one blames the Nfaa for all of the classes. What they don't realize is that none of the officers have a vote on any of the rules. They can make policy & where or what the national shoots will happen. All of the rules good or bad come from the rank & file thru their directors, or that is the way it is supposed to happen. 
Everyone directs their anger at the Nfaa at hdqts. The only ones that are out there are the girls in the office, the secretary & the Pres who happens to live there. Vegas & the Classic is a whole different story.


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## Brad HT (Dec 9, 2006)

brtesite said:


> Dave , I don't believe that it will ever happen. You can't convince a non sight shooting against the sight that they don't have an advantage because they have a sight. This has been debated hundreds of times with no progress.
> Every one blames the Nfaa for all of the classes. What they don't realize is that none of the officers have a vote on any of the rules. They can make policy & where or what the national shoots will happen. All of the rules good or bad come from the rank & file thru their directors, or that is the way it is supposed to happen.
> Everyone directs their anger at the Nfaa at hdqts. The only ones that are out there are the girls in the office, the secretary & the Pres who happens to live there. Vegas & the Classic is a whole different story.


Agreed.. everyone seems to have a beef, but when the rubber hits the road and they are told they have to do something about it.... nobody ever steps up. 

Myself, I am happy about the way the NFAA is run, and have no current issues. Sure there are little things here and there, but nothing that makes me jump up and down. 

One day when I give up shooting tournaments regularly, I would love to be the Illinois Director.... I would enjoy that.

B~

And Mike... thanks for all you do! I appreciate all your hard work...


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## brtesite (May 24, 2002)

thank you


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## Matt_Potter (Apr 13, 2010)

I'm going to Vegas and redding from MT I'll be shooting bb recurve it just seems logical to have Nfaa and WA classes be the same if you don't you will see nfaa fade and fita grow


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## Rolo (Dec 16, 2002)

brtesite said:


> who in the Nfaa would get this ultimatum


I can't get past the part about all the archers in the sport for decades getting tohether and coming close enough to a consensus enabling them to to band together to give the NFAA an ultimatum...


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## itbeso (Jul 6, 2005)

Rolo said:


> I can't get past the part about all the archers in the sport for decades getting tohether and coming close enough to a consensus enabling them to to band together to give the NFAA an ultimatum...


Whats the question, Rolo. I'll try to answer if I can.


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## wa-prez (Sep 9, 2006)

Brad HT said:


> One day when I give up shooting tournaments regularly, I would love to be the Illinois Director.... I would enjoy that.


Sounds like that has been a problem sometimes - that a lot of the Directors are people who no longer shoot. So if they are not out al the tournaments big and small every weekend, how do they know what people want or what works and what doesn't?


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## Rolo (Dec 16, 2002)

itbeso said:


> Whats the question, Rolo. I'll try to answer if I can.


Do you really think you can actually get "all the archers that have been in the sport for decades" to come together to form anything resembling a consensus or majority that cvan be presented to the NFAA as an ultimatum?

I can tell you in my little corner of the world, it ain't hapopening anytime soon. The consensus of those who have been in the sport for decades, amongst themselves, is that there cannot be a consensus. Joust wondering how you are going to pull that off in the entirety is all...


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## itbeso (Jul 6, 2005)

Rolo said:


> Do you really think you can actually get "all the archers that have been in the sport for decades" to come together to form anything resembling a consensus or majority that cvan be presented to the NFAA as an ultimatum?
> 
> I can tell you in my little corner of the world, it ain't hapopening anytime soon. The consensus of those who have been in the sport for decades, amongst themselves, is that there cannot be a consensus. Joust wondering how you are going to pull that off in the entirety is all...


Rolo, I agree with you 100%. My statement was more of a fantasy wish, because ,like you, I realize nothing of the sort would ever happen and so does the Nfaa, that's why they just don't care about cleaning things up.


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## Rolo (Dec 16, 2002)

itbeso said:


> Rolo, I agree with you 100%. My statement was more of a fantasy wish, because ,like you, I realize nothing of the sort would ever happen and so does the Nfaa, that's why they just don't care about cleaning things up.


Um...how do you know the NFAA doesn't want to "clean things up? If the members of the NFAA can't figure it out, what do you expect the NFAA to do about it?

When you speak of the NFAA, what exactly is it you are speaking of? The officers only? The council? The Directors? Or, the members?


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## itbeso (Jul 6, 2005)

Rolo said:


> Um...how do you know the NFAA doesn't want to "clean things up? If the members of the NFAA can't figure it out, what do you expect the NFAA to do about it?
> 
> When you speak of the NFAA, what exactly is it you are speaking of? The officers only? The council? The Directors? Or, the members?


Rolo, Obviously you are looking for an argument and this is the only answer you are going to get from me on the subject.The Council supposedly runs the Nfaa, The directors are the ones who vote in changes and both parties will use the lame excuse that they are just doing the bidding of the members, which is the crux of the whole problem.Usually, the elected directors and council people, are people who have been around the sport for some time, as it should be. Members come and go every year which is why the organization needs to be run effectively, by the elected officials, for the good of the sport. I haven't seen another organization where the inmates run the show and I hate that The Nfaa is run that way.Our club has about a 20 person turnover every year so I hate to think what the turnover is in the Nfaa. Yet, you let these people that will be here today and gone tomorrow tell you how to run your organization? Take the rules changes out of the hands of a transient archery population and put it in the hands of people who will still be tomorrow.


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## Rolo (Dec 16, 2002)

itbeso said:


> Rolo, Obviously you are looking for an argument and this is the only answer you are going to get from me on the subject.The Council supposedly runs the Nfaa, The directors are the ones who vote in changes and both parties will use the lame excuse that they are just doing the bidding of the members, which is the crux of the whole problem.Usually, the elected directors and council people, are people who have been around the sport for some time, as it should be. Members come and go every year which is why the organization needs to be run effectively, by the elected officials, for the good of the sport. I haven't seen another organization where the inmates run the show and I hate that The Nfaa is run that way.Our club has about a 20 person turnover every year so I hate to think what the turnover is in the Nfaa. Yet, you let these people that will be here today and gone tomorrow tell you how to run your organization? Take the rules changes out of the hands of a transient archery population and put it in the hands of people who will still be tomorrow.


Not looking for an argument, just trying to understand where you're coming from.

I also think there is some merit in what you are saying, and it may be why the ASA is perceived to be a better org. It is really a dictatorship.

But to accomplish what you suggest would require that the entire NFAA Constitution be rescinded. The NFAA is modeled after the federal government. This, to a large degree is why it functions the way it does. 

I would also suggest that part of the problem may arise from the thought that the council and directors should be made up of people who have been around a long time. Sometimes, those who have been around a long time are the most resistant to change for the betterment of an organization, and the influx of new ideas is exactly what is needed.


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## capemaybowman (Aug 13, 2008)

nock tune said:


> Mike, I see what you point is about having classes based on score as apposed to style, and it can work, South Jersey's TCAA has been doing that for ever and it works!
> PS, sure hope I did'nt misspell any words!


The TCAA does have styles and classes, free style does not shoot against bow hunter or any other style. The classes are based on score.


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## grantmac (May 31, 2007)

So I can practice everyday and be shooting with the best archers in the world, then show-up only to get beat by a notice BHFS and that would be fine? Give your head a shake, equipment and technique matters in the recurve divisions a LOT more than the Freestyle or BHFS.

-Grant


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## brtesite (May 24, 2002)

itbeso said:


> Mike, with all due respect to all the years you have been in office, I can't believe that you are seeing the picture here. 11th flight 289 average the first two days. 299 the last day and tied with another sandy who "only" shot 298. Every flight except flight one follows the same pattern. We need people running the Nfaa who at least have competed at one time or another to understand and listen to the concerns of the current competitors and clubs. Less classes!!!


 Just got the info on how the flights are set up at vegas. It is up to the discretion of the tourney chair & based on any combination of the 3 day scores.
If the shooter that you are concerned about would have shot one more point, he would have been in the bottom of the next higher flight. That would have taken a lot of luck to have cut it so fine. So as I said before I really don't think that it was sand bagging.


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## target1 (Jan 16, 2007)

brtesite said:


> Just got the info on how the flights are set up at vegas. It is up to the discretion of the tourney chair & based on any combination of the 3 day scores.
> If the shooter that you are concerned about would have shot one more point, he would have been in the bottom of the next higher flight. That would have taken a lot of luck to have cut it so fine. So as I said before I really don't think that it was sand bagging.


Your right...you can't sandbag in Vegas flights, because you have no idea where the cut is going to be.


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## itbeso (Jul 6, 2005)

target1 said:


> Your right...you can't sandbag in Vegas flights, because you have no idea where the cut is going to be.


Target and Mike, I call bs on your statements. Last years flight were set on the first 2 days scores. If you look at any flight you will see a variance of no more than 3 points in the first two days scores of the people in those flights. I can't see one instance where an archer was moved into a higher flight based on last days scores. Unless they are changing it this year, and I highly doubt it, there will be sandbagging going on everywhere except in flight 1. Last year, for example, flight 11 winner averaged 289.5 the first two days , the shot 299 the last day. He would have tied for first in the 10th flight. There were no penalties last year for shooting low the first two days then turning it on the last day. Mike, i can't believe you can't grasp this!


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## reylamb (Feb 5, 2003)

itbeso said:


> Target and Mike, I call bs on your statements. Last years flight were set on the first 2 days scores. If you look at any flight you will see a variance of no more than 3 points in the first two days scores of the people in those flights. I can't see one instance where an archer was moved into a higher flight based on last days scores. Unless they are changing it this year, and I highly doubt it, there will be sandbagging going on everywhere except in flight 1. Last year, for example, flight 11 winner averaged 289.5 the first two days , the shot 299 the last day. He would have tied for first in the 10th flight. There were no penalties last year for shooting low the first two days then turning it on the last day. Mike, i can't believe you can't grasp this!


Not to be a true smart arse, but how much was the winner of the 11th flight paid? Was it even enough to cover the entry fees? I know the lower you go in the flights the lower the payouts are, at what point is sandbagging really not worth it?


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## RickT (Mar 14, 2009)

Flight 10 paid $475 and Flight 11 paid $425. itbeso, before you call bs on posters you should look the shoot rules. The WAF rules state that flights will be set after the third day of competition or at the shoot director's discretion. Tell us how somebody is going to sandbag without knowing how the flights are going to be set?


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## itbeso (Jul 6, 2005)

reylamb said:


> Not to be a true smart arse, but how much was the winner of the 11th flight paid? Was it even enough to cover the entry fees? I know the lower you go in the flights the lower the payouts are, at what point is sandbagging really not worth it?


First place in flight11 pays more than 7th place in flight 1, but that is not the point. People just want to go home saying they won money, whether it be 60$ or 6000$ and they will do whatever it takes to do it. The Nfaas' only concern is bringing as many people as they can into the flights to cover the other costs of the tournament. I feel they should have structure in place to protect those who don't have the ability to shoot 10 points higher the last day. The only way the flight system will work is to divide the number of flights into the total number of shooters and make the cutoffs that way, however if the Nfaa did that registration would go way down because certain people wouldn't be able to pull off their little scams.


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## itbeso (Jul 6, 2005)

RickT said:


> Flight 10 paid $475 and Flight 11 paid $425. itbeso, before you call bs on posters you should look the shoot rules. The WAF rules state that flights will be set after the third day of competition or at the shoot director's discretion. Tell us how somebody is going to sandbag without knowing how the flights are going to be set?


Rick, You need to look at the facts. Go back and read my post then do your own due dilligence in looking at the scores in any and all flights. The rules as you quoted may be right, however they are set totally at the discretion of the shoot director and that is by using the first two days scores period. No ifs ands or buts.


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## RickT (Mar 14, 2009)

itbeso, I read your post and looked at the results. i do understand what you're saying. The fact remains that placement in the flights after two or three days is out of the shooter's control. To say someone is trying to position themselves at the top of a flight when there are 200-250 higher scores is totally illogical and defies common sense, especially when there is more money to win in the higher flights.


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## Rolo (Dec 16, 2002)

itbeso said:


> Target and Mike, I call bs on your statements. Last years flight were set on the first 2 days scores. If you look at any flight you will see a variance of no more than 3 points in the first two days scores of the people in those flights. I can't see one instance where an archer was moved into a higher flight based on last days scores. Unless they are changing it this year, and I highly doubt it, there will be sandbagging going on everywhere except in flight 1. Last year, for example, flight 11 winner averaged 289.5 the first two days , the shot 299 the last day. He would have tied for first in the 10th flight. There were no penalties last year for shooting low the first two days then turning it on the last day. Mike, i can't believe you can't grasp this!


And what if they are set based on days 1 & 3? Or 2 & 3? Sure if a perosn knows ahead of time, or just plans for days 1 & 2 flighting, they could chose to SB. Of course, they have no idea where the cut-off line will be either. Will SBing take place, maybe, maybe not, but to insinuate that everybody does it is a wee bit of an over-reach. 



itbeso said:


> First place in flight11 pays more than 7th place in flight 1, but that is not the point. People just want to go home saying they won money, whether it be 60$ or 6000$ and they will do whatever it takes to do it. The Nfaas' only concern is bringing as many people as they can into the flights to cover the other costs of the tournament. I feel they should have structure in place to protect those who don't have the ability to shoot 10 points higher the last day. The only way the flight system will work is to divide the number of flights into the total number of shooters and make the cutoffs that way, however if the Nfaa did that registration would go way down because certain people wouldn't be able to pull off their little scams.


Again...an over generalization to say that people just want to go home saying they won money. Maybe from the casino. Yes, yes...everybody who shots good on a given day is committing a scam, and the NFAA has no interest in providing people the opportunity to shoot. Maybe, just maybe, if it were really that bad, the folks signing up for the flights would be smart enough to realize that this epidemic is taking place, and either no sign up, or sign up for the Championship division.

But that gets bact to those people who want to go home saying that that won some money...could it be that the people who are complaining about this issue, are complaining not because of SBing, but because they aren't going home with any money, and the reason just has to be because someone else was SBing? There could be no other explanation...


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## itbeso (Jul 6, 2005)

RickT said:


> itbeso, I read your post and looked at the results. i do understand what you're saying. The fact remains that placement in the flights after two or three days is out of the shooter's control. To say someone is trying to position themselves at the top of a flight when there are 200-250 higher scores is totally illogical and defies common sense, especially when there is more money to win in the higher flights.


Rick,the example I used dispels your money argument. The winner of flight11 got 425$ more than the 9th place finisher in flight 1, who finished approx. 300 places in front of the flight11 winner. If you notice how the flights are allocated, there is usually about 4 points sererating the top 2 day scores in each flight. If a person knows they don't have the ability to win flight 1 then why not shoot 289 for two days the blow that flight away with a 299 the last day. Go back thru the complete history of Vegas, This is the recurring theme of the flights and the Nfaa doesn't want to change the format because a lot of people won't show up if it is a clean competition. It is not for me to decide the Nfaas' policy, all I'm saying is don't hide your head in the sand and deny that it exists. (your is not referring to you specifically, but to the Nfaa)


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## itbeso (Jul 6, 2005)

Rolo said:


> And what if they are set based on days 1 & 3? Or 2 & 3? Sure if a perosn knows ahead of time, or just plans for days 1 & 2 flighting, they could chose to SB. Of course, they have no idea where the cut-off line will be either. Will SBing take place, maybe, maybe not, but to insinuate that everybody does it is a wee bit of an over-reach.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Rolo, your arguments are so childish and inane that they don't even warrant a response. Go back and read your post and think about what you wrote.


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## Rolo (Dec 16, 2002)

itbeso said:


> Rolo, your arguments are so childish and inane that they don't even warrant a response. Go back and read your post and think about what you wrote.


Usually when one banters about a description of "childish and inane" it's because they don't have a response...but I read what I wrote again...so

If the flights are set on days 1 & 3 or 2 & 3, how does one know when to SB? Not an argument, just a question...


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## itbeso (Jul 6, 2005)

Rolo said:


> Usually when one banters about a description of "childish and inane" it's because they don't have a response...but I read what I wrote again...so
> 
> If the flights are set on days 1 & 3 or 2 & 3, how does one know when to SB? Not an argument, just a question...


Rolo,If the flights were to ever be set up by your example, the system would work and be fair to all, but the reality is that it has always been set up based on the first two days scores. In addition, The tournament could not assign targets based on shooting against your competition if they didn't have the people flighted before the last day. Just reality. Again, dividing the total number of shooter by the total number of flights would solve the sandbagging, but on the other hand everyone in flights would be randomly assigned targets on the last day and getting results would probably be a logistical nightmare


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## Rolo (Dec 16, 2002)

itbeso said:


> Rolo,If the flights were to ever be set up by your example, the system would work and be fair to all, but the reality is that it has always been set up based on the first two days scores. In addition, The tournament could not assign targets based on shooting against your competition if they didn't have the people flighted before the last day. Just reality. Again, dividing the total number of shooter by the total number of flights would solve the sandbagging, but on the other hand everyone in flights would be randomly assigned targets on the last day and getting results would probably be a logistical nightmare


Quickly looking at 2010 CUX results, it doesn't appear that the flights were determined based on Days 1 & 2.

Target assignments on day 3 are based on the total score of day 1 & 2. There really isn't another way to do it. That doesn't mean that the flights have been set in this manner though.


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## USNarcher (Oct 12, 2002)

Yeah like that sandbaggin Frank guy from AZ that kicked my butt on Sunday. Granted I was sick as heck but I know what his game plan was. 

Vegas is what it is. I can only speak for myself but it seems, for me, that I usually shoot poor Friday and Saturday and more of my game on Sunday.


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## brtesite (May 24, 2002)

USNarcher said:


> Yeah like that sandbaggin Frank guy from AZ that kicked my butt on Sunday. Granted I was sick as heck but I know what his game plan was.
> 
> Vegas is what it is. I can only speak for myself but it seems, for me, that I usually shoot poor Friday and Saturday and more of my game on Sunday.


 frank will be happy to know that he is a sand bagger :wink:


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## itbeso (Jul 6, 2005)

brtesite said:


> frank will be happy to know that he is a sand bagger :wink:


I hate walking behind him because it's like walking on the beach.:teeth:


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## brtesite (May 24, 2002)

itbeso said:


> I hate walking behind him because it's like walking on the beach.:teeth:


why, because he doesn't look good in a bikini?:wink:


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