# Guidance with first Barebow



## Josh_RN (Dec 28, 2013)

Greetings all and thanks in advance!
First off a bit about me and my region. I've wanted to get into archery for a while now and tried out a crossbow, one recurve and several compounds. Even though I was able to show some hints of initial accuracy with the compounds, I found the recurve to be more to my liking. I have several guns which ruled out the crossbow for me. The two places I went were very interested in getting me set up with a compound and showed little interest or knowledge with recurves. So now I come here seeking knowledge and opinions. 

My goals include target shooting, first in my back yard and eventually in the woods. 1-2 year goal of field compition if I can find one. With the 2+ year goal of taking it hunting. I plan on starting off with 28# limbs because there is still much debate as to what my actual DL is. Best guess is 29.5", though it should be lower based on height. I prefer to start off with a barebow setup as defined by FITA, which brings me to my quandary. The riser. 

$250: WW SF Axiom plus which includes a plunger and magnetic rest, but I will need several sets of weights @$12 to $20 each for balancing. 

$400: Spigarelli Explorer II which includes includes plunger and magnetic rest and is setup for internal weights. Initially buying one weight set @$30. 

$420: Spigarelli 650 Club which seems to be already weighted for a barebow, includes a magnetic rest and a weight set. Not sure about the plunger or if it's really needed. 

Other Itialian bows appear to be more expensive than Spig before import tax and shipping is even considered. Any guidance and specific recomendations are very much appreciated. Please know that cost is of major concern. 

Thanks for reading!


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## Stone Bridge (May 20, 2013)

I own a 650 and have shot the Explorer. Both well made but the Explorer is more an Olympic design and it is not as steady as the big 650, about 1.5 pounds lighter. I did not like the Explorer much. I love the Spig 650. 

If you think you'll be in the game, forget the starter riser and buy the 650. They are not sexy but they are very easy to shoot and fairly inexpensive if you can find one.


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## Josh_RN (Dec 28, 2013)

Thanks! That would probably the most logical of the three listed. After reading the thread, "buying from Alternative Archery" I'm giving them a second look. Unlike LAS they're not sold out and a bit cheaper! Have you ever tried a Best Moon?


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## trevorpowdrell (May 8, 2012)

Alternative archery uses Stock status: Special Order when they don't carry any in stock and usually give the amount of time it takes to fill the order. Most of the barebow risers are special order items and take 4-12 weeks but it depends on the manufacturer.


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## Bigjono (Apr 21, 2009)

I've owned Explorers, Clubs, BB's, Zenit BB's and Nilos. All I own now are Spig BB and 650 clubs, they are that good.


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## Josh_RN (Dec 28, 2013)

Thanks Trevor, I'll keep that in mind when I go to order, I am a bit impatient!

Thanks Bigjono, the 650 club is looking like the best bet! Did you find it necessary to buy extra weights to help balance it out? What are your thoughts on plungers, it's not included from either web site, yet some other Spig risers come with them.


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## Bigjono (Apr 21, 2009)

The 650 comes with one BB weight, I just bought another one and use that in the from stab hole, it balances perfectly then. As for plungers, just get a Beiter because you will end up getting one anyway no matter what.


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## _JR_ (Mar 30, 2014)

Depending on how much walking around you'll be doing (you mention shooting in the woods and taking it hunting), you might also want to consider a traditional-style recurve as well. Something like the Bear Grizzly or the Bear Super Kodiak. They are sweet-shooting bows - I've got an old Kodiak (1973 or 1974) and also a 2013 Grizzly that always make me smile, even when I miss. I can't shoot them _quite_ as accurately as with my ILF barebow setup (SF Forged Plus riser, SF Carbon limbs, 12oz weight, magnetic rest), but I find that I shoot them more often, and longer, just because they're more fun. They look good, feel good, are well made, seem to last a lifetime, and they're super-simple (just shoot off the shelf like I do, or stick on a plastic rest). And if you're carrying them all over the place out in nature you'll appreciate that they're 10" shorter and several pounds lighter.

If your primary goal is points, ignore this advice. If you're in it for fun, you ought to check those out (and equivalent others).


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## Josh_RN (Dec 28, 2013)

Bigjono, nice setup! I don't think I can swing that nice of a plunger to start with, I was thinking more like a $20 TT and go from there. 

JR, I agree that my first bow might not be the most trail friendly and I love the looks of the classic Bears. But I do need changeable limbs to grow with. Plus I got this sneaking suspicion that I will want different styles in the future to go with my first. Lol


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## Greysides (Jun 10, 2009)

Just to rock the boat, and maybe a bridge, I'd suggest not going immediately with a 650. They are just h.e.a.v.y. If you're sure you're staying in the game an Explorer is a very good place to start- light enough, heavy enough and capable of being well balanced. Well worth the price and should be easy to sell on later. It's light which would be best for a beginner. You can always add weight, you can't start cutting bits off.

For limbs, it's a toss up between mediums and longs. Your DL is likely to increase as you progress so if 29.5" is near accurate I'd go for longs. Start lighter than you think. Their job is to allow you to learn proper form. It you want to improve your strength, go and pump iron. Going up in weight is straight-forward enough once form is on your side. Limbs can be bought second-hand and re-sold.

The Shibuya DX plunger is Olympic quality and close to your price range. You pay for what you get! Yes, you will need one with any of those risers unless you intend to fabricate a side-plate. You will also need an arrow rest. A cheap Hoyt Super Rest (leave the the hook completely alone) is simple to start with, buy a few. They're cheap enough, don't buy imitations.

Horses for courses, later when you branch out, keep the Spig for target and get a specific bow for hunting etc. At that stage you'll know what you want.


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## Josh_RN (Dec 28, 2013)

Greysides, thanks for the voice of reason! The Explorer " INCLUDES BUTTON, CLICKER, AND ARROW REST" per the LAS site. I would remove the clicker until I'm ready to play with it. Since I have no desire to start with a stab, I am planning on at least one weight kit to balance it out. Do you have any recommendations? As far as length, Viper1 recommended that I start with 25" riser and long limbs, so that is the direction I'm planning. That is unless the 25" is on backorder and the 23" is not. 28# limbs would actually be the max, I'm even considering 26#. I've been watching for used long starter limbs online, but so far none have been cheaper than LAS. 

I do appreciate everyone's input! I know I will continue to rely on y'all as questions come up! This decision will not be made until the order is placed.


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## tgross144 (Dec 18, 2006)

Get the 25" riser. Much better for your draw length. I have a 650 club and the only thing I had to do was get e better grip. I have had a Best Moon, it was a very nice riser. I preferred it with one weight. Get the Shibuya DX plunger.

Tim


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## ryan b. (Sep 1, 2005)

Heed greysides words 

Also, ANY riser makes a good barebow riser once you add weights. Of the risers on your list I'd go with the explorer2 and weights. You'll end up with an overall lighter rig that still balances well. You can make it as heavy as you like with weights. The club is HEAVY and does not balance neutral without adding more weight (cool riser if you want a really heavy bow though).


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## ryan b. (Sep 1, 2005)

And def get the shib plunger.


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## Josh_RN (Dec 28, 2013)

Thanks Tim! Have you ever tried the Explorer?


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## Josh_RN (Dec 28, 2013)

:noidea:Thanks Ryan! Since it comes with a "button" will I still need the shib? Really I guess my question is, is there a difference in a button and a plunger?:noidea:


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## Bigjono (Apr 21, 2009)

Are you sure the Explorer comes with a plunger, I thought it was just a clicker and rest. I agree on the DX by the way, great plunger just not click adjustable.


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## TER (Jul 5, 2003)

Button and plunger are the same thing, just different words. I would try out the button/cushion plunger that comes with the riser before spending the money on some other brand cushion plunger.


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## TER (Jul 5, 2003)

Bigjono said:


> Are you sure the Explorer comes with a plunger, I thought it was just a clicker and rest. I agree on the DX by the way, great plunger just not click adjustable.


LAS online says it comes with a button, clicker and rest.


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## Josh_RN (Dec 28, 2013)

Bigjono, per the LAS site the Explorer does but the Club does not. I'm not sure why since the club is a tad bit more expensive. 

TER, thanks that clears things up!


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## Greysides (Jun 10, 2009)

Josh_RN said:


> Greysides, thanks for the voice of reason! The Explorer " INCLUDES BUTTON, CLICKER, AND ARROW REST" per the LAS site. I would remove the clicker until I'm ready to play with it. Since I have no desire to start with a stab, I am planning on at least one weight kit to balance it out. Do you have any recommendations? As far as length, Viper1 recommended that I start with 25" riser and long limbs, so that is the direction I'm planning. That is unless the 25" is on backorder and the 23" is not. 28# limbs would actually be the max, I'm even considering 26#. I've been watching for used long starter limbs online, but so far none have been cheaper than LAS.
> 
> I do appreciate everyone's input! I know I will continue to rely on y'all as questions come up! This decision will not be made until the order is placed.


The Explorer also gives the option of an Olympic set up in the future. I doubt anyone would the 650 for that. My wife used an older 23" Explorer. It has only room for one weight and it balances fine with that and a small screw-in of 190 grams whose main purpose is to hold on the bowsling. If going for a 25", personally I'd buy both weights so I could play with different set ups. Initially one weight might be enough but i find two gives steadier aiming. A bolt and washers makes for a very tunable screw in weight though it may not be strictly legal... I'd have to check... it would help you decide what weight you like.

With cheaper limbs at that DL I think long would be better. If you try to pull shorter limbs too far you get into stacking (become harder to pull with no speed reward) as you anchor. It's more likely with cheaper than more expensive limbs. It's not a guaranteed thing as it depends on the individual limbs and what your DL turns out to be. Also if you screw in the limb bolts, later, to increase the poundage, long limbs will help keep you away from stacking there too.

26-28# limbs and carbon arrows will go a long way for field competitions. It's possible that for the longer shots you'll need to get more 'creative' but I've done it..... and with aluminium arrows.


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## j.conner (Nov 12, 2009)

I recommend keeping it inexpensive for your first recurve, as your skills and interests are likely to quickly evolve and change.


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## Josh_RN (Dec 28, 2013)

Thanks Greysides! I had no idea that such a low poundage could offer so much! I do like being creative! Lol

J, I haven't ruled out the SF Forged + for that very reason. In my area I am rather limited to compitions, that is why I like the freedom that comes with the internal weight option. I do realize that any competitions with in the next year would only be to see how they work. Heck, my first goal is to work on form and will be ecstatic to be able to hit any portion of a target. I had, after reading many reviews, considered the axiom +, but it's hard for my to spend this kind of money knowing that I am limiting myself on adjustability.


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## Stone Bridge (May 20, 2013)

Josh, the SF Forged Plus is the best deal in Olympic riser archery products I think. I've shot a million risers (Olympic) and none shot better for me than the 250 dollar SF Forged. I have two of them in 25". It's the riser I shoot more than any other and I have a choice of many risers to shoot. It feels very forgiving and easy to shoot. Not terribly stiff feeling and it's fairly deflexed. I have also found the range of adjustment (limb) on this riser to exceed any other riser I've played with. You can really pre-load a limb and still retain nice stability with this riser. It's got a very nice anodized finish too. I do not like painted risers so this is another plus for me. Metal work is decent and the limb alignment system uses large Allan screws that are hard to bugger. It uses an expansion screw method of locking the adjustments which I like also. 

It's an old design but it works nicely. I will never buy another Oly riser in my life, I don't think. I have 2 of the SF Forged Plus models and can't imagine a better toy. Given that it is so inexpensive is a bonus. You can then spend more on good limbs.


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## arc2x4 (Jun 4, 2007)

You might also consider the Spigarelli Vision. It accepts the Spigarelli barebow weights and has a number of stabilizer threaded holes you can use to balance the bow, and is a higher quality riser than the Explorer. It can also be used for Olympic style shooting if you want to switch. I have and shoot one and its a great riser and very adjustable. LAS stocks this riser as well.


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## chrstphr (Nov 23, 2005)

Bigjono said:


> The 650 comes with one BB weight, I just bought another one and use that in the from stab hole, it balances perfectly then. As for plungers, just get a Beiter because you will end up getting one anyway no matter what.


that is a sick brace height. What is that? 5 inches? 


Chris


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## bobnikon (Jun 10, 2012)

chrstphr said:


> that is a sick brace height. What is that? 5 inches?
> 
> 
> Chris


I figured the bow wasn't strung on the top limb, just slid down the limb and then hooked over the hanger.


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## Bigjono (Apr 21, 2009)

Yep, unstrung. Low brace heights are more trouble than they're worth. I run that set up at 8.5"


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## chrstphr (Nov 23, 2005)

my bad. I thought that was really low. 


Chris


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## Mr. Roboto (Jul 13, 2012)

Josh_RN said:


> Greetings all and thanks in advance!
> First off a bit about me and my region. I've wanted to get into archery for a while now and tried out a crossbow, one recurve and several compounds. Even though I was able to show some hints of initial accuracy with the compounds, I found the recurve to be more to my liking. I have several guns which ruled out the crossbow for me. The two places I went were very interested in getting me set up with a compound and showed little interest or knowledge with recurves. So now I come here seeking knowledge and opinions.
> 
> My goals include target shooting, first in my back yard and eventually in the woods. 1-2 year goal of field compition if I can find one. With the 2+ year goal of taking it hunting. I plan on starting off with 28# limbs because there is still much debate as to what my actual DL is. Best guess is 29.5", though it should be lower based on height. I prefer to start off with a barebow setup as defined by FITA, which brings me to my quandary. The riser.
> ...


Hey Josh, for something completely different, I would suggest that you jump right into competition. Join up with a local indoor league during the winter. Join your state/local archery association. Start shooting their events, and other local events. Don't wait a couple years until you think your good enough for competitions. If you can fling one arrow, your are good enough to compete. Don't worry about what score you are going to shoot. Go there to just have fun shooting and to talk with the other shooters. As you can see, there are a lot of people in this forum that is willing to help you in the equipment decision process. At tournaments, there are a lot of people that will come along side to help motivate, encourage, and offer advice to help improve your game.

Pete


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## tgross144 (Dec 18, 2006)

At competitions you can also get first hand experience with other equipment. I liked the SF Forged riser but not the grip. The 25" Revolution was too soft and had too much hand shock for me. 

Tim


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## SS7777 (Mar 17, 2012)

arc2x4 said:


> You might also consider the Spigarelli Vision. It accepts the Spigarelli barebow weights and has a number of stabilizer threaded holes you can use to balance the bow, and is a higher quality riser than the Explorer. It can also be used for Olympic style shooting if you want to switch. I have and shoot one and its a great riser and very adjustable. LAS stocks this riser as well.


Hi Arc, I have almost bought a Vision twice now. Nice looking riser, have you set it up for Olympic style, if so, how did it fare?


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## itbeso (Jul 6, 2005)

All three of the USA barebow contingent were shooting Spigarelli risers. 2 were shooting the club and the other was a bbriser. There was a reason for that, but what do they know? Realizing that some people need to be contrarian to what the top dogs shoot, I can't understand why the average archer who wants to be the best they can be, would not take into account that these top dogs shoot the riser that gives them the best chance of winning as none are sponsored by Spigarelli. I found the Spig to be the best of the best until another Manufacturer came out with a barebow riser recently. Now, I am shooting the new riser better than I have ever shot barebow with a recurve. There is a previous thread on this riser.


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## Josh_RN (Dec 28, 2013)

Wow, Thanks for all the input!!!

Stonebridge & Tgress: the SF Forge is still on my short list, on another thread I was given a recomendation for set up for FITA! I'm sure I would probably be very happy with it and if it is no longer on 
back order at the first of the year, it may be hard to pass up on the price and reported quality alone;

Mr Roboto & Tgress: I hadn't really thought about jumping in to compitition this early, but now I WILL! I just recently found that a JOAD group is now going on only about an hour from where I live on Saturdays. I like that most of the money paid (which is rather small) goes to promoting young archers and they even promote attendance of new archers of all ages. I am planning on attending when I can around work and snow. As far as compititions locally, there seems to be only one place offering them and they are geared towards compounds, but told me all types are welcome and compete together. They seem like nice guys, just didn't know very much about stick bows. 

Arc2x4: I looked at the vision and it is really cool looking, but not being able to hold one, I didn't realize that there was a quality difference. So is there anything specific that stands out r/t quality? What makes it worth the extra cash? 

Itbeso: So what is this mystery bow you speak of? The Gillo by chance? It is another really cool looking bow and I know that there has been a lot of hype to its release, just haven't run across very many reviews and no comparisons. I will continue to look, but what were your thoughts?

Thanks again so much for all the great in put!!!


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## itbeso (Jul 6, 2005)

Josh_RN said:


> Wow, Thanks for all the input!!!
> 
> Stonebridge & Tgress: the SF Forge is still on my short list, on another thread I was given a recomendation for set up for FITA! I'm sure I would probably be very happy with it and if it is no longer on
> back order at the first of the year, it may be hard to pass up on the price and reported quality alone;
> ...


I have been very impressed and happy with the Gillo. I really like the grip on the SF riser but , in my experience with it, I feel it is too light for barebow shooting( fita style). I don't mean to sound like a know it all, It's just that when I came back to barebow recurve, I tried at least 6 different risers and it took a lot of time to do that. If I can cut that learning curve down for others, it would make me very happy. I realize that a lot of choice come down to what makes a person happy but on the other hand, as I said, there's a reason top shooters are using the bow they are using. Good luck with your choice.


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## Markliep (May 6, 2012)

I'm not as experienced as many others on this tag but I did pick up an oly riser on the advice if Martin Ottensen who is an accomplished bb archer - in looking at riser movement in a weighted Moon vs the Samick Vision oly that had been recommended I noticed very little difference in post-release movement - translation is that if you're like most of the tribe here you're going to get fancier equipment later as your skills improve so it might make sense to buy basic at first then once you have a stable form buy more specifically for your needs ... I started out with heavy short bows & a high anchor & now live at the opposite end of the spectrum - M

Btw link with pics of riser movement comparos is http://tradtalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=50089&highlight=Riser+movement


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## Josh_RN (Dec 28, 2013)

WooooHoooo! I placed my order today! I think this is the best starting point for me. 

Riser: 25" Spigarelli Explorer II, black

Limbs: WW SF Axiom Plus 28# longs (I'm estimating around 31-33# at my DL)

String: 2x. B-50 14 strand 70" AMO-- I understand that that's not optimal, but this is where I could save a little money initially and as a noob, it's unlikely that I could tell the difference anyway. 

Bow stringer: Spigarelli, which was actually one of the cheaper ones and has leather limb pockets

Rest: Spigarelli that comes with the riser. I'm not really sure which one

Plunger: Spigarelli that comes with the riser. Not sure about this one either. 

Sling: I'll be trying to find a way to make one as a starter. Another way I tried to save a few bucks. 

Spigarelli Handle weight set. I figured it would be a good starting point and plan on making more if needed. 

Clicker: Spigarelli comes with riser, but will be removed until I'm ready for it. 

Bow case: The box it comes in. Lol

Arrows: Easton Platinum Plus arrows, 2213, 31 5/8", Easton super nocks and 2.88 veins. It was an open box special and they couldn't tell me what size the field points were. I figured it was better to be over spined anyway as I don't know what my actual DL is or will be. 

Quiver: a bucket!!!

Tab: Bateman Bubba with cordovan leather. I thought I'd start with a split finger and go from there. 

Arm guard: x-spot

Chest Protector: jacket filled with man-boobs! I'm sure I'll get a real one later on

Accessories:
Serving to make nocking points, a bow square, and string wax (snot, it made me laugh and got good reviews). 

Coach: regrettably not an option around here

Book: Shooting the Stick Bow by Anthony Camera

Thanks again for all y'all's help!!!


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## Josh_RN (Dec 28, 2013)

Itbeso, thanks for all your help. As much as I am spending to get started, I just couldn't justify a Gillo as my starting bow. But man was it a hard choice and if there had been one in town, i think I would be singing a different tune! And in a few years who knows!

Markliep, thanks, I really enjoyed the link! It actually reinforced what others were saying about weighting down an oly.


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## Mr. Roboto (Jul 13, 2012)

Hey Josh, I am sure you will be very pleased with your new rig.

Now time to start saving pennies and come to the Vegas shoot (https://www.nfaausa.com/vegas-shoot) and shoot with some of the best of the best.

The first time I went to Vegas was within 6 months of picking up the bow for the first time in my life. Compared to the other shooters there, I was absolutely horrible, but I had a blast.


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## droy (Dec 21, 2012)

Josh,

Congrads on the purchase. Just a data point on the SF limbs before you open the box. I have a simular DL (a bit less actually- see below) and I pull 33-34# on a 26 lb pair of those same SF limbs. I think you'll be closer to 36-37#. You may want to exchange those limbs for something lighter if your looking to be around 30#.


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## Josh_RN (Dec 28, 2013)

Mr. Roboto, that looks like a lot of fun! Might just try and talk my wife into a field trip!!!

Droy (Doug), thanks for the heads up, I cantacted LAS and dropped the limb weight to 26# he said that should put my in the 30# range with my set up. I also switched to a three under tab! Thanks again!


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## Mr. Roboto (Jul 13, 2012)

Josh, Keep in mind that at Vegas, about 99% of the people shooting the recurve flights division are olympic style shooters. In the Championship Barebow, it is 100% barebow shooters. Some compound, and some recurve, men and women, all together.


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## ryan b. (Sep 1, 2005)

I'd REALLY consider different strings. Dacron is crap compared to the modern materials. 

Also , you might want to check but I'm almost certain the explorerII doesn't come with a rest. The original exorer had a little recess for the built-in rest but the II does not. I'm not sure about the plunger. It does come with a clicker. 

Another way to experiment with front weight is to stack 2" steel washers and use correct length bolt to secure them. When you settle on a weight you can order a solid one.


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## Josh_RN (Dec 28, 2013)

I


ryan b. said:


> I'd REALLY consider different strings. Dacron is crap compared to the modern materials.
> 
> Also , you might want to check but I'm almost certain the explorerII doesn't come with a rest. The original exorer had a little recess for the built-in rest but the II does not. I'm not sure about the plunger. It does come with a clicker.
> 
> Another way to experiment with front weight is to stack 2" steel washers and use correct length bolt to secure them. When you settle on a weight you can order a solid one.


Ryan, the LAS site states that it comes with "a button, rest and clicker" it should be here wednesday, so I'll know for sure and report back then. I wanted a couple strings to start with and Dacron has the most stretch. Once I have worked out the actual needed string length for quietest brace height then my plan is to start trying some of the custom makers on here for the good stuff. Do you have a personal preference between D-97 and the others? Have you tried any of the custom makers on the site? Thanks for the input!!!


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## lizard (Jul 4, 2003)

The Explorer, for years, has come with rest and button. We had one (it seems) eons ago, and gave it to one of our club shooters, and it had rest and button in the package. That is why, for the money, I think those are the best risers for club members to consider if they can afford them. 

Club is a great bow, I have two of them, if you'd like to try one out PM me and I will send it to you. If you like it you can buy it from me! We can discuss via PM. JimC and I have a pretty good reputation about equipment, and so I am willing to allow you to "test drive" this riser. DO you have ILF limbs? If not, in the PM let me know the poundage and length you need, and we'll try to get you set up with something that might work!

PM ME PLEASE!

Lizard



ryan b. said:


> I'd REALLY consider different strings. Dacron is crap compared to the modern materials.
> 
> Also , you might want to check but I'm almost certain the explorerII doesn't come with a rest. The original exorer had a little recess for the built-in rest but the II does not. I'm not sure about the plunger. It does come with a clicker.
> 
> Another way to experiment with front weight is to stack 2" steel washers and use correct length bolt to secure them. When you settle on a weight you can order a solid one.


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## bobnikon (Jun 10, 2012)

lizard said:


> The Explorer, for years, has come with rest and button. We had one (it seems) eons ago, and gave it to one of our club shooters, and it had rest and button in the package. That is why, for the money, I think those are the best risers for club members to consider if they can afford them.
> 
> Club is a great bow, I have two of them, if you'd like to try one out PM me and I will send it to you. If you like it you can buy it from me! We can discuss via PM. JimC and I have a pretty good reputation about equipment, and so I am willing to allow you to "test drive" this riser. DO you have ILF limbs? If not, in the PM let me know the poundage and length you need, and we'll try to get you set up with something that might work!
> 
> ...


Now there is a good offer!


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## Greysides (Jun 10, 2009)

That's a very gracious offer. :thumbs_up


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## Josh_RN (Dec 28, 2013)

lizard said:


> The Explorer, for years, has come with rest and button. We had one (it seems) eons ago, and gave it to one of our club shooters, and it had rest and button in the package. That is why, for the money, I think those are the best risers for club members to consider if they can afford them.
> 
> Club is a great bow, I have two of them, if you'd like to try one out PM me and I will send it to you. If you like it you can buy it from me! We can discuss via PM. JimC and I have a pretty good reputation about equipment, and so I am willing to allow you to "test drive" this riser. DO you have ILF limbs? If not, in the PM let me know the poundage and length you need, and we'll try to get you set up with something that might work!
> 
> ...


If I would have not just ordered my bow, I would be bugging the heck out of ya!!! LOL. But that is a great offer and I hope Ryan does take you up on it and shares his feed back. I still really like the looks of the club bow and will probably want one in the future! On a side note, when in several months I decide to start stepping up the weight, may I contact you to see if you have used ILF limbs? Thanks


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## Mulcade (Aug 31, 2007)

EDIT: Nevermind, I didn't read all the posts. Enjoy the Explorer!!! :grin:


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## Josh_RN (Dec 28, 2013)

Well my riser came in and I spent the day shooting it and having a blast! My only real concern at this point is that it didn't come with any type of instruction with it. It did come with a one page bilingual diagram, too bad it's in Itialian on one side and Spanish on the other. So it doesn't do me any good. I will email them soon and see if they can send me a copy in English. Does anyone have any ideas on pdf or written instructions for tiller and weight adjustment? I'm keeping the brace height around 8.5" but I'm not sure if this correct or what the range should be. I do want to thank y'all again for all of the guidance!


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## steve morley (Dec 24, 2005)

itbeso said:


> All three of the USA barebow contingent were shooting Spigarelli risers. 2 were shooting the club and the other was a bbriser. There was a reason for that, but what do they know?


Seems to be more variation in Europe as to which top shooter is shooting which Barebow rigs, think it was the Greenhorn Sirius and Stolid Bull Attaco that came out on top at last World Fields. Nothing wrong with those Spig risers but that's all Lancaster seems to offer and of course you have the Sky TR7 Riser now.

Maybe with more choices on offer we might see more Barebows in the USA, lets see an American win Internationally with an American built riser, that would be cool :thumbs_up


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## Bigjono (Apr 21, 2009)

I think the exploits of Alan, Ben and John and the growing popularity of the RU class have really generated new interest in barebow shooting in North America. Expect to see more and more shooters at all levels.


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## 2413gary (Apr 10, 2008)

I'm thinking 4th over all and a Team Gold if this is not fairing very well maybe you should come to the trial's


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## Demmer (Dec 1, 2012)

The Sirius and spigs were the most common riser at the field worlds. I believe the spigs out numbered the Sirius by a good little bit.


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## Bigjono (Apr 21, 2009)

I tried a G1, it was pretty good but to be honest it felt like a tweaked Zenit BB. It will be a a much used riser for years, in both sides of the pond. The 650 is still the best riser I have shot, I rate it higher than the BT and Vanquish but I never got to shoot a Sirius much. I really do think the WF25 has the potential so step in to that specialist market too.


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## steve morley (Dec 24, 2005)

I haven't tried them all but the 650 and Nilo just didn't work or me, on the other hand I'm doing very well with the Vanquish. All down to personal feel/taste.

I wouldn't say the G1 is the best but it does tick a lot of boxes in regards to competitive price and adaptability of getting a very personal tune.


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## MartinOttosson (May 31, 2011)

Erik Jonsson shot a Best Zenith BB and won in Zagreb. So also Best was represented in the top there. 

There are many nice risers out there that for sure are good enough to win the biggest of competitions. The choice you have to do is however what feel you want in your bow and then you will have to try to find a riser that gives you that feel. The shot reaction and feel can be tuned some by changing limbs, string material and thickness, arrow weight and so on, but the core of the setup is still the riser. A certain riser will still keep a lot of it´s shot character, no matter what you set it up with.

In general, the shot feel and reaction, in terms of sound/vibration/recoil into your hand depends a lot on riser material and riser geometry. Since a stringwalker BBer holds the fingers down the string, and no stabilizers or dampening devices are allowed on the riser, you get a much bigger variation of the feel with a barebow compared to a olympic recurve setup. It's just you and the bow, basically. Add a long/v-bar stab set and a few doinkers to a bow, and shoot it split finger, and almost any bow gets quiet. As a barebow archer you dont have that much to play around with. You can balance the riser with weights, but the actual feel remains the same. Both the material choice and the geometry and thickness of the riser affects the amount of stiffness and shot feedback that the riser delivers. You have the softer side of the market with Spigarelli and then the stiffer options like Green Horn Sirius or the Bernadinis. Best is on the stiffer half while Hoyt´s non-tec risers are softer for example. If you shoot a riser for a while you can get used to almost anything, but you will never feel that you really get that connection with the bow until you find a riser that fits your own style. 

So for recurve: Buy any high end riser and learn to tune it with stabilizers and a good grip and you will get happy. Until the next years' Hoyt Super Duper Formula Life Changer comes out in the new shiny catalogue atleast. Sell your almost new bow for half the price, buy a new one again and get happy again. 

And for barebow: Take your time. Get to know yourself as an archer and buy a riser that suits you. Keep it forever, in joy and suffering, and you will have a friend that know´s your good and your bad whatever happens. Your barebow friends will still think a GreenHorn Diamond from 1994 is a pretty cool riser. Fashion moves slow in barebow...

And to comment the topic: The Spiga 650 is a very well performing barebow riser but it is also rather special in balance. You have to like rather heavy bow to appreciate it. The new Spiga BB is a better choice if you are a bit insecure since it´s quite a bit lighter without weights. The BB is like the younger brother of the original 650. The Explorer feels a lot less barebow, but it´s still tunable to become more of a barebow riser. If you want to go barebow specific, the 650 or the BB is the best in the Spiga range. If you want to be able to switch to recurve, the 2001 or the Explorer are better.


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## Josh_RN (Dec 28, 2013)

MartinOttosson said:


> Erik Jonsson shot a Best Zenith BB and won in Zagreb. So also Best was represented in the top there.
> 
> There are many nice risers out there that for sure are good enough to win the biggest of competitions. The choice you have to do is however what feel you want in your bow and then you will have to try to find a riser that gives you that feel. The shot reaction and feel can be tuned some by changing limbs, string material and thickness, arrow weight and so on, but the core of the setup is still the riser. A certain riser will still keep a lot of it´s shot character, no matter what you set it up with.
> 
> ...


Thanks, I did go with the Explorer primarily for less initial weight and more options down the road. I did buy one of the Spig weight sets, but I'm still so new that I couldn't tell much difference w/ or w/out it at any of the lower locations I tried. This could be that I'm still trying to sort out my form and working w/ 26# limbs. Heck I'm just stoked that I'm keeping my groups (shooting sets of three) inside 9" most of the time at 10 yards and most, not all, of the arrows manage to stay on an 18" target. My main question now is, does anyone have links or copies in english reguarding how to make adjustments to the weight, what the weight range is, and any care instructions.


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## Bigjono (Apr 21, 2009)

MartinOttosson said:


> Erik Jonsson shot a Best Zenith BB and won in Zagreb. So also Best was represented in the top there.
> 
> There are many nice risers out there that for sure are good enough to win the biggest of competitions. The choice you have to do is however what feel you want in your bow and then you will have to try to find a riser that gives you that feel. The shot reaction and feel can be tuned some by changing limbs, string material and thickness, arrow weight and so on, but the core of the setup is still the riser. A certain riser will still keep a lot of it´s shot character, no matter what you set it up with.
> 
> ...


Good post as ever Martin thanks.


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## Sanford (Jan 26, 2009)

Regardless of what folks think is the best BB riser for Americans v. the rest of the archery world, the archer in question is very new - as in just starting archery. Until that person had developed their bow arm and bow arm positioning, and developed in other aspects as well, I would not suggest any heavy mass to bow to begin with. The added weight to their bow arm will be a deterrent, not to mention possible injury. Starting with a good Oly riser like the SF with a stab, on price and train-ability, would do this person far more service than suggesting starting on a heavy-arse 650 in my opinion. I have a 650 and like it, so not knocking the riser at all. We need to remember we are helping the poster and not our opinions.


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## steve morley (Dec 24, 2005)

Great post and info as always Martin.

Good point Sanford, first riser I tried was the Win&Win KAP riser, then the Pro-Accent riser which I got second hand, both were inexpensive and a good starting place to try out Recurve. At the time I was just testing the water and didn't know if I would go back to Longbow, once I knew what direction I wanted to go I started to look into more serious Barebow rigs.


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## Josh_RN (Dec 28, 2013)

Sanford said:


> Regardless of what folks think is the best BB riser for Americans v. the rest of the archery world, the archer in question is very new - as in just starting archery. Until that person had developed their bow arm and bow arm positioning, and developed in other aspects as well, I would not suggest any heavy mass to bow to begin with. The added weight to their bow arm will be a deterrent, not to mention possible injury. Starting with a good Oly riser like the SF with a stab, on price and train-ability, would do this person far more service than suggesting starting on a heavy-arse 650 in my opinion. I have a 650 and like it, so not knocking the riser at all. We need to remember we are helping the poster and not our opinions.



Thanks, I did go with the Explorer primarily for less initial weight and more options down the road. I did buy one of the Spig weight sets, but I'm still so new that I couldn't tell much difference w/ or w/out it at any of the lower locations I tried. This could be that I'm still trying to sort out my form and working w/ 26# limbs. Heck I'm just stoked that I'm keeping my groups (shooting sets of three) inside 9" most of the time at 10 yards and most, not all, of the arrows manage to stay on an 18" target. My main question now is, does anyone have links or copies in english reguarding how to make adjustments to the weight, what the weight range is, and any care instructions.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Bigjono said:


> I think the exploits of Alan, Ben and John and the growing popularity of the RU class have really generated new interest in barebow shooting in North America. Expect to see more and more shooters at all levels.


While it's great to see these guys doing well both at home, and internationally, there is a whole group of us who have been working behind the scenes for years now to bring barebow into the JOAD and Adult Archery programs - which we've done. We're now bringing barebow into U.S. Outdoor Nationals. 

Those three - and arguably Rebecca Harris too - have been the face of American barebow archery for sure, but don't think they are the only barebow archers we have. Many of us have been working hard for years to ensure there are archers to fill their shoes someday.

John


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## Bigjono (Apr 21, 2009)

I agree John but being an import to this side of the pond my knowledge on ground roots BB shooting here is not that deep. I just know that in Europe the US barebow guys have been very quiet. The only ones I knew of were Ty and Scott I think.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Skip Trafford has been traveling the world with his wife and kids for many years to compete in barebow events, albeit mostly IFAA. Mark Applegate left quite a legacy as the U.S.'s greatest barebow archer in recent years both here and internationally. If you go back and look at the number of his wins both nationally and internationally (including a team gold at world field), and the number of records he held, it will be some time before those accomplishments are eclipsed.


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## grantmac (May 31, 2007)

I don't think barebow will go anywhere significant in the US until all of the organizations can agree to follow one international rule set. JOAD allowing the basic compound into BB is a start at a junior level, but where do those kids go once they are adults?

-Grant


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

grantmac said:


> I don't think barebow will go anywhere significant in the US until all of the organizations can agree to follow one international rule set. JOAD allowing the basic compound into BB is a start at a junior level, but where do those kids go once they are adults?
> 
> -Grant


Agreed on the one international rule set. I've been advocating for that for years, and felt the NFAA took us a step backward with the 12" stab. in the "trad" division.

However, the basic compound is a useful tool to give the NASP kids a place to go in JOAD. So it does serve a purpose.


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## itbeso (Jul 6, 2005)

limbwalker said:


> Skip Trafford has been traveling the world with his wife and kids for many years to compete in barebow events, albeit mostly IFAA. Mark Applegate left quite a legacy as the U.S.'s greatest barebow archer in recent years both here and internationally. If you go back and look at the number of his wins both nationally and internationally (including a team gold at world field), and the number of records he held, it will be some time before those accomplishments are eclipsed.


Just so the record is clear, The USA has won two barebow individual medals in Fita field. Bob Burns and Alan Eagleton won silver medals in individual competition. Mark Applegate, Alan Eagleton, and Myself have won gold medals in team competition. As far as I know there are no records kept in field archery. This is the greatest era of USA barebow competition, period. Before 2012, the USA had never had 2 archers finish in the top 8, we had 2 top 8 finishes in both 2012 and 2014. Opinions vary, but, in my opinion it was Alan Eagleton who set the high standard in recurve shooting and led the US into its current standing as a national barebow force to be reckoned with. I have the greatest respect for Mark Applegate and consider him a good friend. One of the most humble champions I know. John Demmer joined the top group this year and there are several others out there who have the ability to challenge for the 3 team spots. I think all of this years team has the goal of spreading the word and getting more and more archers interested in the recurve barebow style of shooting.


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## vabowdog (Dec 13, 2007)

Ben, is the trials going to be in Tx next time?? I'd love to give it a try one year.


Dewayne


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## itbeso (Jul 6, 2005)

vabowdog said:


> Ben, is the trials going to be in Tx next time?? I'd love to give it a try one year.
> 
> 
> Dewayne


DeWayne, I don't think they have even posted the location for this years nationals. It's archers like yourself, Jason Westbrock, Rick Stonebreaker, Gary McCain, John Wert, Etc. Who need to step up and continue carrying the torch for the USA. The next World Championships are going to be in Dublin, Ireland in 2016.


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## itbeso (Jul 6, 2005)

itbeso said:


> Just so the record is clear, The USA has won two barebow individual medals in Fita field. Bob Burns and Alan Eagleton won silver medals in individual competition. Mark Applegate, Alan Eagleton, and Myself have won gold medals in team competition. As far as I know there are no records kept in field archery. This is the greatest era of USA barebow competition, period. Before 2012, the USA had never had 2 archers finish in the top 8, we had 2 top 8 finishes in both 2012 and 2014. Opinions vary, but, in my opinion it was Alan Eagleton who set the high standard in recurve shooting and led the US into its current standing as a national barebow force to be reckoned with. I have the greatest respect for Mark Applegate and consider him a good friend. One of the most humble champions I know. John Demmer joined the top group this year in this postthere are several others out there who have the ability to challenge for the 3 team spots. I think all of this years team has the goal of spreading the word and getting more and more archers interested in the recurve barebow style of shooting.


I was referring to the mens barebow competitors only in this post.


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## Mr. Roboto (Jul 13, 2012)

I will definitely be competing at the trials to try to get one of the three slots to Ireland. I got a lot of work to do to up my game to catch up to you all, but at the very least I will be another data point to help show that Barebow is growing in the US.

Pete


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## itbeso (Jul 6, 2005)

Mr. Roboto said:


> I will definitely be competing at the trials to try to get one of the three slots to Ireland. I got a lot of work to do to up my game to catch up to you all, but at the very least I will be another data point to help show that Barebow is growing in the US.
> 
> Pete


Pete, best of luck in your quest. We need more archers with your attitude.


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## 2413gary (Apr 10, 2008)

Sandy and I will be at the next trials


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## itbeso (Jul 6, 2005)

2413gary said:


> Sandy and I will be at the next trials


It's about damn time.:teeth::teeth:


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## Markliep (May 6, 2012)

MartinOttosson said:


> Erik Jonsson shot a Best Zenith BB and won in Zagreb. So also Best was represented in the top there.
> 
> There are many nice risers out there that for sure are good enough to win the biggest of competitions. The choice you have to do is however what feel you want in your bow and then you will have to try to find a riser that gives you that feel. The shot reaction and feel can be tuned some by changing limbs, string material and thickness, arrow weight and so on, but the core of the setup is still the riser. A certain riser will still keep a lot of it´s shot character, no matter what you set it up with.
> 
> ...


Great post Thx - on the soft side (Spig) any reason you didn't comment on the Revolution? Have been wondering if it has an application to light fast limbs & lower gpp with its purported in built dampening system & BB weight - M


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

itbeso said:


> Just so the record is clear, The USA has won two barebow individual medals in Fita field. Bob Burns and Alan Eagleton won silver medals in individual competition. Mark Applegate, Alan Eagleton, and Myself have won gold medals in team competition. As far as I know there are no records kept in field archery. This is the greatest era of USA barebow competition, period. Before 2012, the USA had never had 2 archers finish in the top 8, we had 2 top 8 finishes in both 2012 and 2014. Opinions vary, but, in my opinion it was Alan Eagleton who set the high standard in recurve shooting and led the US into its current standing as a national barebow force to be reckoned with. I have the greatest respect for Mark Applegate and consider him a good friend. One of the most humble champions I know. John Demmer joined the top group this year and there are several others out there who have the ability to challenge for the 3 team spots. I think all of this years team has the goal of spreading the word and getting more and more archers interested in the recurve barebow style of shooting.



No mention of Trafford's accomplishments? Or Pelfry's?

What part of what I wrote was in error?

Applegate's and Pelfry's accomplishments speak for themselves. I can't think of another men's barebow archer from the U.S. that dominated for as long as Applegate did. His dominance may not ever be repeated because we now have a group of high level barebow archers who will instead, take turns winning those titles. 



> in my opinion it was Alan Eagleton who set the high standard in recurve shooting and led the US into its current standing as a national barebow force to be reckoned with.


That is absolutely correct, but for quite while, Applegate carried the water for the U.S. Geez Ben, give the man his due.

John


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## steve morley (Dec 24, 2005)

If you search YouTube some great moments from Mark at World Fields in Sweden


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## Mr. Roboto (Jul 13, 2012)

limbwalker said:


> No mention of Trafford's accomplishments? Or Pelfry's?
> 
> What part of what I wrote was in error?
> 
> ...


John, I don't know Trafford's or Pelfry's accomplishments, do you have any info/links about them? I would like to know more about them.

Mark Applegate's scores is what motivated me to stay with barebow. Most of the people at the shoots that I go to used to tell me that Barebow people cant shoot distances, and have no chance at getting a decent FITA 1440 round score. But when I saw some of his scores at the outdoor nationals a few years back, it proved to me that excellent scores can be achieved with the barebow. Since then I have ignored all the naysayers. As I am getting more into the competitive side of Barebow shooting, it is really nice to see that there are a lot of people that do shoot well with a barebow. I am glad I decided to stay the course.

Pete


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## Bigjono (Apr 21, 2009)

I will google mark Applegate as I don't know much about him, thanks.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Applegate was the gold standard in the U.S. for barebow shooters before Alan came onto the scene. When I started shooting target in 2004, he and Pelfry were still shooting, but I saw Applegate more often. Yes, he holds records. They do have barebow records, despite Ben not knowing where to find them. Most remarkable to me are Applegate's fita (4-distance outdoor) records. Esp. 90 meters. 

Because a lot of his and Ty's and Trafford's accomplishments occurred before results were posted or archived on line, they may be hard to find though.

John


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

http://usaarcheryrecords.org/pub/STAROUT.HTM

I count 7 National records for Applegate. Alan managed to best a few of his records with his outstanding performance in 2010.


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## itbeso (Jul 6, 2005)

limbwalker said:


> No mention of Trafford's accomplishments? Or Pelfry's?
> 
> What part of what I wrote was in error?
> 
> ...


As I said, John, I have a great deal of respect for Mark and try to show it everytime we shoot together. He dominated US barebow during his tenure but If my facts are correct, Mark never made the final 8 shootdown at the World Field Championships. The reality is that prior to 2012, the top barebow archers in the states, other than Mark, did not participate in fita field archery leading to dismal individual showings by this country. With the exception of Bob Burns' silver medal, there was no top 8 showing by the US until Alan silvered in 2012. A little anecdote explains the state of fita barebow in the US prior to 2012. I showed up to the 2012 National Field Championships in Spokane 6 months after starting back with a recurve after 39 years. The only people there who knew who I was were Alan And Ty Pelfry. There was an Olympic style archer from back east who wasn;t sure he could make the sighted recurve team so he entered the barebow division because it had been so easy to secure a spot there historically. As fate would have it, the first three spots on the team were very competitive for the first time ever and all three team members acquitted themselves well in France, a first for the USA. The oly style archers lament was," just my luck, I show up and for once there is strong shooting and competition in the barebow class". I am one who will give any archer his due when earned. Conversely, I don't give out praise to those who gain titles due to circumstance or lack of competition. Case in point, back in the 80s, the IFAA world championships were held in Conjunction with The NFAA field championships. Due to an archaic rule In IFAA, I could not compete in the Bowhunter class. I ended up Winning the NFAA championship. The archer who finished 3rd in our class, 138 points behind me, ended up winning the IFAA World championship. The man had my respect for placing 3rd, beating some fine archers, but I think he was embarrassed at being the "World Champion". The United Stated had 3 very capable barebow archers representing it at this years World Field Championships. At the end of qualifying, a poster on this forum stated how far the Swedish team was ahead of the Americans and how we could use some lessons in barebow shooting. To me, that was an insult and a direct slap in the face to all of us. After the first 12 target shootdown, all 3 americans were still in the competition, 2 of the Swedes were still there. After the next 8 target shootdown, there were still 2 americans in the competition. After the next 4 target shootdown, an American led the qualification into the medal rounds. The Swedes ended up shooting for gold and silver, but there was a fine line between 1st and 4th. I haven't seen that poster ever apologize for insulting and underestimating the US team.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

> To me, that was an insult


Ben, you're far too easily insulted. And your quote is also incorrect.

What I actually said was, we (meaning all of us U.S. barebow archers) could learn a thing or two from the Swedes. 

I think that's pretty obvious when they are 20+ points ahead of the best barebow archers the U.S. has ever fielded, don't you? 

You might want to notice that your counterparts were in agreement, and that a smart and humble man is always looking to see what they can learn from those ahead of them.


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## itbeso (Jul 6, 2005)

limbwalker said:


> Applegate was the gold standard in the U.S. for barebow shooters before Alan came onto the scene. When I started shooting target in 2004, he and Pelfry were still shooting, but I saw Applegate more often. Yes, he holds records. They do have barebow records, despite Ben not knowing where to find them. Most remarkable to me are Applegate's fita (4-distance outdoor) records. Esp. 90 meters.
> 
> Because a lot of his and Ty's and Trafford's accomplishments occurred before results were posted or archived on line, they may be hard to find though.
> 
> John


LIke I said, I have the utmost respect for Mark. I have never shot our California fita rounds barebow but you have lit a fire under me, John. Let's talk again next year.:smile:


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

And I'm sorry but you're going back on my ignore list. I just don't have the time to deal with your insecurities right now. 

My apologies to the OP and how far this thread was derailed.


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## itbeso (Jul 6, 2005)

limbwalker said:


> Ben, you're far too easily insulted. And your quote is also incorrect.
> 
> What I actually said was, we (meaning all of us U.S. barebow archers) could learn a thing or two from the Swedes. It was a statement made during my state of surprise at how you guys as a group could be out-shot by that many points. I didn't believe that was possible.
> 
> ...


Smart and humble, well I guess that leaves me out.. My counterparts were as offended as I was. Of course, it is the socially correct thing to act humble online so people won't call you all those nasty things.:sad:


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## Stone Bridge (May 20, 2013)

Ben, you still have not apologized for marginalizing the winners in Croatia by explaining your loss as caused by injury, lack of practice and lack of opportunity to shoot that style of field event.

When you admit the three men ahead of you were better shooters than you and give them their due, I'll admit to anything you want from me. Deal?

I doubt you will do this. It's not in your DNA. You can't even acknowledge Mark Applegate as being a superb barebow archer. I think he might be the best barebow recruve shooter this country ever produced. And, more importantly, he is as good sport. You could take lessons from him.

So how about admitting the men ahead of you in Croatia were better than you. Fourth is okay. But it ain't a position on the podium.


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## itbeso (Jul 6, 2005)

Stone Bridge said:


> Ben, you still have not apologized for marginalizing the winners in Croatia by explaining your loss as caused by injury, lack of practice and lack of opportunity to shoot that style of field event.
> 
> When you admit the three men ahead of you were better shooters than you and give them their due, I'll admit to anything you want from me. Deal?
> 
> ...


Stone, I just gave you the final say.


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## Stone Bridge (May 20, 2013)

I appreciate it, Ben. Will leave you alone going forward.


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