# Why Is 3D Hunter Class Unknown Yardage?



## aldavid18 (Apr 27, 2018)

I've pondered this rule for some time now. Is that class to simulate spot and stalk? Any hunting I've done I've had my range finder, stand, and knew exact yardages to various shooting lane areas. Just wunderin


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## redneckarcher33 (Dec 3, 2006)

ASA hunter class is known yardage.

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## B3AV3R (Apr 19, 2006)

Generally speaking, it's because "Hunter Classes" have been around longer than rangefinders have been. There was a time when every class was unknown. The pendulum has started to swing the other way, these days. Unknown may be a thing of the past someday.


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## Rat (Jun 19, 2004)

Because that's the rules, no other reason. 

There really isn't a 'good' reason other than some people want an unknown and some want a known, so they have two categories; one for each group. 

Modern 3D tournaments have nothing to do with hunting...


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## Methodman (Feb 15, 2015)

Better yet...…...Why is there a "Range Finder Class" for bowhunters.... But youth and _cubs _have to shoot unknown??

I always figured it should go this way.... Mark the youth and cub stake on the back side of the stake so others cant see it to help them. Kids can make a guess, to practice range estimation, then look at the back of the stake to confirm the shot distance. This would help confidence, save arrows, build estimation skills, and prevent the other classes from a known yardage to peak at on the stake. Kids would have the option of shooting unknown if they don't want to peak. It would be so easy to have 28(or 40) laminated cards with ranges printed on them. Or- paint on the back of the 28 youth/cub stakes. They don't need "station #s" if all the adult stakes are #ed. 

Just seems silly to force 8 year olds to guess at yardage rather than concentrating on form. I remember when my kid started out at cub class.... It took three pins and the whole sight housing to go from 10-15 yards. Being off by 2 yards was the difference between a 10, and a miss!


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## ncsurveyor (May 12, 2009)

3D has always been unknown. With everything going to known, what's the point of expensive 3D targets? Why not just shoot paper targets with spots (field archery)? Hunt long enough and the time will come when you won't have time to range an animal, unless a person is ok with only taking ranged shots, and that's fine too. To me, bowhunting is unknown.


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## eoj823 (Jul 25, 2016)

I shot 3D as a kid before range finders. I just got back into it this year and have shot a few rounds of K45. I didnt even know they had known yardage. I still guess yardage before ranging the target. I do miss the game of guessing and will probably go back to unknown. At least you can blame a bad shot on guessing a few yards off.


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## IBOHunt3D (Jun 6, 2006)

ncsurveyor said:


> 3D has always been unknown. With everything going to known, what's the point of expensive 3D targets? Why not just shoot paper targets with spots (field archery)? Hunt long enough and the time will come when you won't have time to range an animal, unless a person is ok with only taking ranged shots, and that's fine too. To me, bowhunting is unknown.


Unlike field archery, where the target is a clearly marked circle, the expensive animal targets still present a unique challenge compared to other target disciplines. That being you don't have a clearly defined spot to aim at. In my opinion, picking a spot on the target and holding on it while executing your shot is the real skill in competitive 3D. 

To put it into perspective, take your average winter league shooter. That person knows the yardage (20 yards) and has a well defined spot to aim at. How well does that person score? Now, take that same shooter out to the 3D course where the targets are at a known 33 yards, but the spot isn't defined. You just gotta know where to hold. How do you think they shoot?

Those who don't shoot a lot of 3D think that making it known will ruin it by making it too easy. Quite the contrary. I actually think that from a competitive perspective, making 3D known makes it harder. Those who can pick and hold on a spot will score higher than those who can't. You have removed the uncertainty of yardage, and put a premium on shooting ability. 

Fortunately, the 3D game can be played how you want to play it. If you like known, shoot known. If you like unknown, shoot unknown. Unless of course you live up north and only attend IBO shoots. In that case, start working on your yardage.


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## 1/2 Bubble Off (Dec 29, 2016)

IBOHunt3D said:


> Unlike field archery, where the target is a clearly marked circle, the expensive animal targets still present a unique challenge compared to other target disciplines. That being you don't have a clearly defined spot to aim at. In my opinion, picking a spot on the target and holding on it while executing your shot is the real skill in competitive 3D.
> 
> To put it into perspective, take your average winter league shooter. That person knows the yardage (20 yards) and has a well defined spot to aim at. How well does that person score? Now, take that same shooter out to the 3D course where the targets are at a known 33 yards, but the spot isn't defined. You just gotta know where to hold. How do you think they shoot?
> 
> ...


I agree.... My score goes up pretty significantly shooting Known vs Unknown.... but so does almost everyone else!!!! In my local 3D league, we use IBO targets but score the center as a 12 and every class is "Known". Using these rules there are quite a few of us that manage to shoot UP every week. (admittedly some of them shoot further UP than me) I would argue, the leaderboard would look pretty much the same if we switched to "Unkown" with the exception of maybe one guy. He is a helluva shot but is terrible at calling range... 

I know there are people (some of whom are good friends of mine) who hate on the IBO for NOT having "Known" classes and others hate on the ASA for HAVING "known" classes. I've seen friends who are "closer than brothers" go to fisticuffs over this issue. 

I personally have a very simplistic approach to the issue.... when I show up at an event, I play by the rules posted by the host/sanctioning body. If I'm allowed to use my range finder, you can bet your bottom dollar that I'll use it to at least verify my "call". If the rules prohibit the use of a RF, I'll leave it in the truck and still go have a good time. I understand people have preferences but, I don't understand why this is such a taboo subject or why close friends will beat the snot out of each other in support of one philosophy over the other....


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## hrtlnd164 (Mar 22, 2008)

As soon as people recognize that 3D ‘Competition’ is not hunting then the rules will make more sense. There are pin classes because some like to shoot pins, Open classes for those a who like open, known and unknown for those who want to judge or not. Same game with slightly different rules, simple. Some organizations realize that offering all options increases participation...others would prefer to continue in a downward spiral than keep up with the times.


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## nestly (Apr 19, 2015)

hrtlnd164 said:


> As soon as people recognize that 3D ‘Competition’ is not hunting then the rules will make more sense. There are pin classes because some like to shoot pins, Open classes for those a who like open, known and unknown for those who want to judge or not. Same game with slightly different rules, simple. Some organizations realize that offering all options increases participation...others would prefer to continue in a downward spiral than keep up with the times.


Yup, 3D tournaments have NEVER been about "hunting practice". As soon as you start keeping score and awarding trophies and cash prizes, it's just another type of archery competition, which is why the majority of bows at a 3D tournament look exactly like the bows at Target archery tournaments, rather than looking like "hunting" bows. 

If the question is really "why doesn't IBO have known classes?" the answer is simple. IBO leadership is stuck in a time warp and thinks it's still 1989.


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## carlosii (Feb 25, 2007)

Methodman said:


> Better yet...…...Why is there a "Range Finder Class" for bowhunters.... But youth and _cubs _have to shoot unknown??
> 
> I always figured it should go this way.... Mark the youth and cub stake on the back side of the stake so others cant see it to help them. Kids can make a guess, to practice range estimation, then look at the back of the stake to confirm the shot distance. This would help confidence, save arrows, build estimation skills, and prevent the other classes from a known yardage to peak at on the stake. Kids would have the option of shooting unknown if they don't want to peak. It would be so easy to have 28(or 40) laminated cards with ranges printed on them. Or- paint on the back of the 28 youth/cub stakes. They don't need "station #s" if all the adult stakes are #ed.
> 
> Just seems silly to force 8 year olds to guess at yardage rather than concentrating on form. I remember when my kid started out at cub class.... It took three pins and the whole sight housing to go from 10-15 yards. Being off by 2 yards was the difference between a 10, and a miss!


Some very good ideas.


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## Ksman62 (Dec 14, 2016)

ASA has had a lot of changes over the years. A lot of people would like one round unknown and one round known.


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## aldavid18 (Apr 27, 2018)

Interesting ideas, reasons, and concepts. For me, back in my hunting days we always knew yardages set up by measuring tapes, "stepping off distances" by foot, or by rangefinders when they initially came out and we could afford And we were always hunting from ground or tree stands, seldom spot and stalk unless it was by accident. I can see reasons for both scenarios. Thanks for input


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## IBOHunt3D (Jun 6, 2006)

^^^ Right. Never have I known any successful hunter to go into the field and count on simply estimating the distance to an animal. Even in the days before rangefinders were mainstream, articles by Adams, Schu, etc, ALL advocated marking shooting lanes for distance so that when an animal came into range, you were only guessing to within 2 or 3 yards. Like okay, this animal is between my 20 and 25 marks, is he 22 or 23? 

So this whole "hunting is unknown" argument really doesn't have much merit. And if you go out and hunt purely unknown...no rangefinders, no marked lanes, no stepped yardages, well, good for you. You are either really awesome at the 3d game or you don't shoot many deer.

Or to put it another way, you guys ever see Levi's show? Notice how he, one of if not the best yardage judges in the whole 3d game, uses a rangefinder to range his animals. 

Hunting is known distance. And it always has been.

For 3d, play the game you like, but don't lie to yourselves.


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## Bucket (Jan 6, 2006)

nestly said:


> Yup, 3D tournaments have NEVER been about "hunting practice". As soon as you start keeping score and awarding trophies and cash prizes, it's just another type of archery competition, which is why the majority of bows at a 3D tournament look exactly like the bows at Target archery tournaments, rather than looking like "hunting" bows.
> 
> If the question is really "why doesn't IBO have known classes?" the answer is simple. *IBO leadership is stuck in a time warp and thinks it's still 1989*.



Thankfully in my opinion...but we all know what they say about opinions.


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## Bucket (Jan 6, 2006)

IBOHunt3D said:


> ^^^ Right. Never have I known any successful hunter to go into the field and count on simply estimating the distance to an animal. Even in the days before rangefinders were mainstream, articles by Adams, Schu, etc, ALL advocated marking shooting lanes for distance so that when an animal came into range, you were only guessing to within 2 or 3 yards. Like okay, this animal is between my 20 and 25 marks, is he 22 or 23?
> 
> So this whole "hunting is unknown" argument really doesn't have much merit. And if you go out and hunt purely unknown...no rangefinders, no marked lanes, no stepped yardages, well, good for you. You are either really awesome at the 3d game or you don't shoot many deer.
> 
> ...


I always carry a range finder when hunting, and have never ranged an animal. (although I don't spot and stalk, so this shouldn't be a surprise) I range spots from my stand, and compensate when an animal comes in the lane. But, if it's inside 30 yards, I don't worry about it. I know that I am only 2" low at 30, and for a kill zone, that's fine. With 3d, 3 or 4 yards is a big deal. 

I am just getting back into 3d and was really surprised to see the known classes. Honestly, I can't see the fun in it. But that's just me, and don't hold anything against the ones that do like it. On the up side, it does make your scores look better.


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## ncsurveyor (May 12, 2009)

IBOHunt3D said:


> ^^^ Right. Never have I known any successful hunter to go into the field and count on simply estimating the distance to an animal. Even in the days before rangefinders were mainstream, articles by Adams, Schu, etc, ALL advocated marking shooting lanes for distance so that when an animal came into range, you were only guessing to within 2 or 3 yards. Like okay, this animal is between my 20 and 25 marks, is he 22 or 23?
> 
> So this whole "hunting is unknown" argument really doesn't have much merit. And if you go out and hunt purely unknown...no rangefinders, no marked lanes, no stepped yardages, well, good for you. You are either really awesome at the 3d game or you don't shoot many deer.
> 
> ...


That's an awefully large blanket statement to make that hunting is and always has been a known game. Maybe from a tree stand. I'd argue the exact opposite. I consider myself a successful hunter and I rely 99% on judging yardage. Sure i carry a range finder if the opportunity arises to use it, you're dang right I'll use it. But, Go out west and spot and stalk elk or other game and see how far relying only on a rangefinder gets you. You better be able to judge some yardage, and yes, within a yard or two. Out of the nine bull elk I've killed on public land, diy hunts, I've had time to range two of them, and I had a rangefinder around my neck on all of them. If I'd taken time to range them, I probably wouldn't have gotten a shot. Back in the day before rangefinders, you think chuck Adams marked the shooting lanes to the elk he spot and stalked? Or Fred bear or randy ulmer? You think they've all relied on marked yardage to kill what they've killed? If you want to shoot known that's perfectly fine, but who's lying to themselves here? In my mind, it's great to carry a rangefinder and use it whenever possible, but why not also be proficient at judging as well? It could only help. Because the day will come when you won't have time to range, if you hunt enough.


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## sagecreek (Jul 15, 2003)

I like unknown 3D. lain:


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## nestly (Apr 19, 2015)

sagecreek said:


> I like unknown 3D. lain:


I respect that, and I felt the same for the majority of my years shooting 3D. I don't think anyone is suggesting that unknown 3D should go away (as long as there's enough interest to keep it viable). The issue is IBO artificially propping up unknown buy saying if you live in an IBO region, you have to shoot unknown if you want to shoot 3D tournaments, otherwise just stay home because we don't care about the archers that want to participate, but don't have the time or inclination to shoot in a class that's more primitive than how they ordinarily practice and hunt. It really is no different than if IBO banned release aids, and said if you want to shoot IBO, you have to shoot fingers. Existing "fingers" shooters would probably be fine with that because they already feel a certain sense of pride shooting that style because it's more challenging..... release shooters would not be quite so jazzed to find the rules require them to revert to a less advanced form of archery than they're used to.


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## IBOHunt3D (Jun 6, 2006)

ncsurveyor said:


> That's an awefully large blanket statement to make that hunting is and always has been a known game. Maybe from a tree stand. I'd argue the exact opposite. I consider myself a successful hunter and I rely 99% on judging yardage. Sure i carry a range finder if the opportunity arises to use it, you're dang right I'll use it. But, Go out west and spot and stalk elk or other game and see how far relying only on a rangefinder gets you. You better be able to judge some yardage, and yes, within a yard or two. Out of the nine bull elk I've killed on public land, diy hunts, I've had time to range two of them, and I had a rangefinder around my neck on all of them. If I'd taken time to range them, I probably wouldn't have gotten a shot. Back in the day before rangefinders, you think chuck Adams marked the shooting lanes to the elk he spot and stalked? Or Fred bear or randy ulmer? You think they've all relied on marked yardage to kill what they've killed? If you want to shoot known that's perfectly fine, but who's lying to themselves here? In my mind, it's great to carry a rangefinder and use it whenever possible, but why not also be proficient at judging as well? It could only help. Because the day will come when you won't have time to range, if you hunt enough.


That's fair, and I can respect that. Western hunting is certainly different than eastern tree stand hunting for whitetail. 

Just out of curiosity, do you know the ranges at which the aforementioned elk were taken?


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## Erion10x (Jan 28, 2010)

nothing like the learning curve for an unknown yardage shoot. learned real quick after bouncing a few arrows off the rocks


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## ncsurveyor (May 12, 2009)

IBOHunt3D said:


> That's fair, and I can respect that. Western hunting is certainly different than eastern tree stand hunting for whitetail.
> 
> Just out of curiosity, do you know the ranges at which the aforementioned elk were taken?


The two I’ve had time to range were 51 and 67 yards. The others have been between 30-45. I’ve judged yardage my whole life in 3d and I really think it helped with those other 7. Instinct just sorta kicked in and I had to make snap judgements and shoot. They all worked out thankfully. 
It’s funny, the one at 67, I initially judged him before taking the time to range, and I judged him to be 55. The rangefinder said 67. I wouldn’t have shot if I hadn’t been able to range him. I’ve got a limit and past 50 yards I’m not an accurate enough judge to risk a bad shot. Most days, anything inside 45 I feel like I can be within a couple yards of a rangefinder, so why risk the extra time and movement to range the animal. Especially when the situation is already tense and seconds are precious. That’s just me though. For guys that only want to take shots they’ve ranged, that’s a wise decision for them, and better than flinging arrows when they aren’t comfortable with an unknown distance. To each their own. But unknown 3d most definitely has its place and it pays dividends in real life hunting scenarios. 


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## Bethelbass4 (Oct 24, 2017)

ASA has a known.


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## xxRobinhoodxx (Jan 19, 2015)

I can understand both sides but I use them when I hunt not because I’m bad with judging yardage but because I owe it to the animal to make the best ethical clean kill shot I can. Range finders make that happen for me. Being a hunter shooting in a “hunter” class with 3D animals, to me is the best practice you could have before bow season. Just makes more sense to me to use them. To each their own. I also could see them getting more shooters to join if they opened up more known yardage classes. IMO


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## GeorgiaArcher01 (Oct 7, 2018)

B3AV3R said:


> Generally speaking, it's because "Hunter Classes" have been around longer than rangefinders have been. There was a time when every class was unknown. The pendulum has started to swing the other way, these days. Unknown may be a thing of the past someday.


I think that time is among us. Most people shoot known yardage now it seems


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## Alanlib (Sep 1, 2011)

Learning to read yardage seems most likey the skill set one is trying to learn for hunting in the real world?


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## rlawless (Feb 15, 2015)

No matter known or unknown, bottom line is the archer still needs to make a good shot. I still like to judge the distance and then confirm it via the range finder.

In the big picture its still archery and the skills must be perfected to be good at it.


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