# Cock feather orientation shooting off the shelf



## spinsheet

My wife and I are both shooting recurves off the shelf. I previously shot a compound but am new to recurve shooting. At Lancaster Archery we were told to shoot with the cock feather facing the bow, unlike when I used to shoot a compound and the cock feather faced away from the bow. Once the reasoning was explained to me it made sense and that is how I have been shooting. At the range today some of the compound guys noticed that I had the cock feather facing the bow and I was told that I either misunderstood what I was told or I was misinformed. They felt that there was no way that one should shoot with the cock feather facing the bow. How do you guys orient the cock feather when shooting a recurve off the shelf?

I have noticed that my wife's cock feathers are getting rather worn so it would seem that hers are indeed making contact with the bow. Mine on the other hand are showing no wear whatsoever so I'm pretty confident that mine are making little, if any, contact with the bow. She is shooting Carbon Express Predator 700 arrows with a Samick Polaris with an 18 pound draw weight. At the range, one of the guys (who has been shooting recurves since the 1950s) said that those arrows were too stiff for an 18# bow and recommended lighter arrows. If the arrows are too stiff could this explain why her cock feathers are getting so worn, that the arrow is not flexing enough to avoid the cock feather brushing the bow? Or am I reading too much into the theory?

He also mentioned that if you shoot left handed (as I do) you have a different helical with the fletching as opposed to someone shooting right handed (as my wife shoots). Is this something that I need to be concerned about?

Thanks.


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## Jack Scandia

Cock feather should face away from the bow. As for helical it does not matter but I find right helical will not tend to work 
your tips loose (righty tighty) Not sure about the arrow spine. Good luck and welcome to the addiction.


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## BOHO

I have my cock feather pointed slightly higher than 90 degrees from the bow. Reason being is that when I put the tip of my nose on the feather, it creates a consistent and comfortable head position for me. I think if the feathers are wearing down quickly, it could be a spine issue. One way to change that is to go to a 4 fletch. That way you dont nock the same way everytime.


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## Destroyer

What ever works best. 'Cock feather in' is popular these days.




spinsheet said:


> If the arrows are too stiff could this explain why her cock feathers are getting so worn, that the arrow is not flexing enough to avoid the cock feather brushing the bow?


Shooting off the shelf can wear feathers more than a flipper & plunger. Spine? Could be but I have doubts, how do the 700's tune?


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## guyver

spinsheet-

No need to worry about which helical, in my opinion. Trying something new may be nice but probably wont notice any difference.

I found that cock feather in can help with clearance issues on one of my bows (shot off of the shelf). I believe the reasoning is that you will only have one feather contacting the riser/shelf as opposed to two. I shot this way for some time but I don't find it necessary anymore and have switched back to cock feather out.

If you are worried about proper spine, I would suggest "bare shaft" tuning (aka. BS tune). If you would like more info on this feel free to pm (private message) me or search this forum (or google "bare shaft tune").

Guy


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## Night Wing

I shoot cock feather out.


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## JParanee

It does not matter one bit 

I shoot both ways however the arrow goes on the string when I'm nocking it 

You will get some feather wear shooting off shelf

just experiment by turning your nock a bit if one particular arrow shows more wear than another


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## sharpbroadhead

if she is getting wear it is because her arrows are not tuned properly to the bow


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## voodoofire1

+1...


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## WindWalker

If the arrows are tuned properly to the bow, as JP has said it should not matter. However, feather wear does indicate spine and/or string nock issues and if turning the cock feather inboard does eliminate or decrease fletch wear, then I have to go with spine issue.


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## sweet old bill

I have shot both in and out and over the years for me it is less feather ware with the cock feather in.


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## GEREP

A lot is going to depend on the the individual bow (width of the shelf), the size of the feathers (high or low profile), and the stiffness of the arrow. 

In a perfect world, and with perfect arrow tune, cock feather in or cock feather out shouldn't matter. When the arrow flexes, it should bring the lower hen feather out away from the shelf. Cock feather "in" helps the lower hen feather clear shelf because the lower hen feather is already at the outer end of the shelf and therefore has very little distance to travel before it clears the shelf. With cock feather out, the lower hen feather has to travel much farther in order to clear the shelf, and often makes contact with the outer edge of the shelf. (see diagram)









Now, if the arrow is too stiff and doesn't flex as it should, even with cock feather in, the cock feather can make contact with the riser and cause the wear you are talking about. I would say that the advice that you got to shoot cock feather in was good adivice. I suspect the problem you are having is that even with 700 spine arrows, with an 18 lb bow, it's tough to get enough flex for the lower hen feather to clear the shelf, especially if the shelf is wide. 

As to what the compound shooters say, unless they are shooting with fingers, it is a totally different animal. When you are using a release, especially with a string loop, arrow flex is minimized because it is the act of the string rolling off the fingers (to the left if you are right handed, and to the right if you are left handed) that starts the whole flexing process.

Hope that all made sense.

:wink:

KPC

KPC


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## fotoguy

Left or right helical: no difference
Cock feather orientation: no difference
Does not affect arrow flight. 
Feather wear is spine/tuning issue, at least when we used high speed camera it is what we found. However, when I introduced results about what we found with nock slippage/travel the "experts" corrected me so it will probably happen here too. 

The left/right helical debate has been caused by the feather manufacturer. They manufacture left and right wings, birds have left and right wings so one part of country they promote right wing and the other left. Just business. 


Lee


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## GEREP

fotoguy said:


> Feather wear is spine/tuning issue, at least when we used high speed camera it is what we found. However, when I introduced results about what we found with nock slippage/travel the "experts" corrected me so it will probably happen here too.
> 
> 
> Lee


Actually, Lee brings up a VERY valid point. It could be nock slippage that is causing the contact with the shelf and wear on your wife's fletching. 

I'll let him explain that one, I'm due in a meeting soon.

Besides, I'm not up for the argument with the aforementioned "experts."

:wink:

Take it away Lee...

KPC


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## fotoguy

Sorry KPC....not travelling that road where the car doesn't need the guard rails because it is moving, but because the road is moving....more important things to do.......and I don't have the time to debate it....people can take what I offer from experience dealing with archery on a daily basis for years...or believe the "experts".....their choice...I merely post when I feel I have something to offer that I have experienced....and have substantial evidence to back it up....

Lee


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## Sanford

Spin, your theory is correct. A well tuned arrow "should" clear the fletch of the shelf. Now, if it's not, it very well could well be a stiff spine issue as others suggest. A change in nock orientation may help mask the problem and stop much of the feather wear, but the root of the problem, stiff spine, would remain unchanged, unfixed. It really depends on how exact you expect your equipment to be for you in the end in what you do to fix it now. 

Like the second nock set example, if your arrow is hitting the shelf, a second nock set may help mask that issue. Some archers can be quite happy with quick fixes or fixes they have seen and hear others do or get away with. Some archers, being a little more anal about their equipment, and if they are having an issue, want to know the root of that issue and fix that first. Either way is fine and up to the individual archer in the end. A lot is going to depend on your level and ability to detect "what and why" things are happening, and then, you could determine how much to "fix" or "mask" the issue given your purpose and personality.


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## GEREP

Sanford said:


> Like the second nock set example, if your arrow is hitting the shelf, a second nock set may help mask that issue. Some archers can be quite happy with quick fixes or fixes they have seen and hear others do or get away with. Some archers, being a little more anal about their equipment, and if they are having an issue, want to know the root of that issue and fix that first.



FWIW, you can tune your arrow to absolute perfection and still experience nock slip. Tying a second nock set on your string is not a "quick fix" in many situations, but the only fix. Especially if you are a three under shooter. 

Not sure if that's what you meant by "quick fix," but Ijust thought I'd throw that out there.

KPC

KPC


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## spinsheet

Wow, a LOT of information here to process!

What do you mean by a 'second' nock? At Lancaster they applied thread(?) both above and below where my arrow is nocked on the string. Is that what you are referring to by a second nock? If I have one above and one below my arrow does that make nock slip a mute point?

She did shoot fletched arrows through paper from about 3 yards from the paper and about 1 out of 4 arrows did show some vertical tear but the others were fine. I was hoping to see something more consistent. My arrows seemed to all shoot through fine, but then again I'm not seeing any fletch wear on my arrows. I knew nothing about shooting bare shafts, we'll have to try that.

I am kind of concerned that Lancaster would have given her arrows that are spined too heavy for her bow. I'll have to research that a bit.

Thanks everyone for all of the input. Looks like we have are work cut out for us


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## GEREP

spinsheet said:


> Wow, a LOT of information here to process!
> 
> What do you mean by a 'second' nock? At Lancaster they applied thread(?) both above and below where my arrow is nocked on the string. Is that what you are referring to by a second nock? If I have one above and one below my arrow does that make nock slip a mute point?


If you have a second nock set installed, nock slip isn't your issue.

Just for grins, can you post a picture of your shelf? 

Are you getting wear on the outside edge of the shelf?

KPC


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## sharpbroadhead

KPC is exactly right - I have no clue what this "quick fix" comment is about


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## spinsheet

I can post am image of her shelf when I get home. There is the green coloring of her fletching showing on her shelf so there is no doubt that contact is happening. At Lancaster they applied what is basically the soft side of Velcro on her shelf which is pretty rough while I have calf hair on mine. Not sure if that makes a difference or not. If it's not supposed to make contact in the first place then I would assume that it does not.

She is a 3 under shooter with two nocks, just to clarify.


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## Sanford

GEREP said:


> FWIW, you can tune your arrow to absolute perfection and still experience nock slip. KPC
> 
> KPC


I shoot 3-under on various set ups, and if it was bad enough to affect my arrow performance, and I could not get satisfactory results without "having" to shoot with a second nock set, anything other than switching gear would be quick fix for me. Not to be confused with a common practice of having one to insure for incidentals in form and release. I don't think I am alone, as I cannot imagine any serious competition shooter (other than with the extreme imbalances of string walking) saying, "you know, I just cannot seem shoot this thing right without a second nock set!" 

I guess some just don't like riding the rails


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## GEREP

It will be interesting to see your pic spin. It could just be a matter of a nock point that is a tad too low and your arrow is bouncing off the shelf.

KPC


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## sharpbroadhead

Sometimes the comments on here are so incredibly absurd that you have to pause and wonder if they are for real?


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## Sanford

spinsheet said:


> I can post am image of her shelf when I get home. There is the green coloring of her fletching showing on her shelf so there is no doubt that contact is happening. At Lancaster they applied what is basically the soft side of Velcro on her shelf which is pretty rough while I have calf hair on mine. Not sure if that makes a difference or not. If it's not supposed to make contact in the first place then I would assume that it does not.
> 
> She is a 3 under shooter with two nocks, just to clarify.


Spin, the problem is that her arrows are way stiff. It's not the end of the world, though. Many, many, youth start out and learn on those Genesis bows that come from the factory with overspined arrows. Later, you can try to pin down some more appropriately spined arrows for her.


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## spinsheet

I am beginning to become convinced that the arrows are overspinned for her bow. My concern with that is that it was not a 'package deal' but we purchased the bow from Lancaster Archery with some cheap arrows (that we were not afraid to lose). We then drove back up about two months later with the bow to purchase nice carbon arrows and the 700s were what they sized her with. Did they make a mistake? Is a 700 spined arrow for an 18# bow not actually unheard of? Just wondering how we might have ended up with overspined arrows when we let the 'experts' pick them out for us.

Don't get me wrong, the guys at Lancaster have treated us great and I'm not in any way downing them. I am, however, concerned with how this happened in the first place.


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## Sanford

Spin, I tune 800 spine off my indoor Oly rig for exactly 30# off my fingers with 30.5" shafts. Assuming that, and the fact that I can obtain much closer to center than she can with the Polaris, meaning I can shoot an even stiffer spine, lb for lb, my bet is way stiff for her. We don't know what they based their selection from, and who knows the level of expertise a counter person may or may not have in Trad gear.

Edit to change to 800 spine, sorry.


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## bilbowbone

My wife is just starting out on an 18 lb. bow that's probably the same one 'cause I got it from Lancaster too and she's shooting 780 spine carbons that are a bit stiff for 18 lbs. but good enough for a beginner. Until she gets a decent form established I would not get too worked up about it.


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## GEREP

*


Sanford said:



I don't think I am alone, as I cannot imagine any serious competition shooter (other than with the extreme imbalances of string walking) saying, "you know, I just cannot seem shoot this thing right without a second nock set!"

Click to expand...

*

































:confused3:

KPC


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## Sanford

Gerep, key is they can shoot with or without. Knowing why is key, and, hint, it ain't the tooth fairy or a floating pocket in a taut string.


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## GEREP

Sanford said:


> Gerep, key is they can shoot with or without.


This is getting better and better.

First, we hear nock slip isn't happening.

Second, we are told no serious competitor uses two nock sets.

Third, we hear it IS happening but not for the reason you said.

Fourth, it IS happening, but the serious competitors that weren't using a second nock set, now know why it's happening, and now they ARE using a second nock set, but it's OK, cuz knowing why is the key. 

Or maybe it's really NOT happening and the serious competitors just put a second nock set on there for aesthetic purposes, or maybe even to throw off the competition.

:thumbs_up

:wink:

KPC


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## Easykeeper

Have you tried raising the nock point? Rest and feather wear is a classic example of the nocking point being too low. As far as the stiff shafts, if you don't want to run out and buy new arrows you could try heavier points, that might make the stiffer shafts work for her. Did you start with the cock feather in after you noticed the feather wear? If you are shooting cock in and that's the feather that's showing wear, try it the other way. I always shoot cock feather out, I think most do, but I have seen some that like the other way. There is no right or wrong, either will work. 

If the arrows are flying well, no porpoising or wobble, I wouldn't get too worked up over it. It's easy to replace fletching and you might drive yourself crazy trying to fix something that will correct itself as her skills improve. 

As far as two nock points...I don't understand why anybody wouldn't use two. I've always used two whether it's a recurve, longbow, compound, release, split finger, or three under. Just seems to make sense that if I need a reference on the top it would be nice to have one on the bottom too.


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## GEREP

Sanford said:


> Gerep, key is they can shoot with or without. Knowing why is key, and, hint, it ain't the tooth fairy or a floating pocket in a taut string.


Then can you explain why most compound shooters that use a release, also use a string loop to keep the apex of the string directly behind the nock.

Tooth Fairy?

KPC


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## Sanford

Gerep,I think we played this hand already. Seems your final ace back then was some stuff about educated folks and capital budgets of the country. Followed by the usual internet yucksters.

Let's let this mans thread serve his purpose and not ya'lls. 
.


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## sharpbroadhead

Gerep - I cannot tell you how refreshing it is to read someone else trying to expose some of the ridiculousness that is posted in these forums at times - there are only a handful who do - and they usually get so tired of it that they just give up - or sometimes even worse - they get banned.


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## spinsheet

Here are the images of my wife's shelf (on her bow, I mean...). As you can see, there is actually a groove being worn in the back side of the bow above the shelf where I am assuming that the shaft is rubbing the riser. The green is the color of the cock feather on her arrows. I also measured her draw length and to the best that I can see it is 25.5". This is from the very front of the bow to the notch in the nock. If the draw weight of her bow is 18# at 28" and she is drawing 2.5" less than that should I take off 2# per inch and call her draw weight 13#? If her arrows are overspined for 18# then this makes it even worse, does it not?

I also understand that her form is not where it needs to be and that getting the properly spined arrows will only do so much, but I am still concerned that Lancaster sold me arrows that simply are not appropriate for her draw weight. They sold us the bow, they measured her for arrows, took her in the range and let her shoot a few, and then sold us arrows overspined for her setup. I am going to be needing arrows soon and it makes me wonder if they will size me up appropriately.

I guess that I need to get a bit more well versed on arrow selection


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## Sanford

Spin, they tried. They may have sold you arrows that were several spines too stiff, but at least they put a second nock on the string . Sorry, just kidding. They are good folks there and something just got crossed up. It is not uncommon and one reason we have all had to learn it for ourselves, as expensive as that gets.

I would say use Stu Miller's Dynamic Spine calculator, it is a free download on the web. Put in your wife's specs and see what it says. You can then come back here and folks can give their input, and somewhere in that, you should get a closer match.

I would not go the same route again. You already know what the arrow should be basically doing, so use that plus some research and become your own expert. It is cheaper in the long run.


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## Easykeeper

How long are her arrows from the nock to the back of the point? Looking at the CE chart (http://www.carbonexpressarrows.com/sites/default/files/CX_2012_TargetArrows.pdf) the 800 looks like what she needs. If they didn't cut the arrows and left them full length maybe you could get them to work with a heavier point. A heavier point will have a softening effect on the spine of the shaft. The chart doesn't say what point is used in setting up the recommendations but 100gr. or 125gr. is pretty common. If you look at the bow draw weight on the left side of the chart, then slide over to arrow length you can see the recommendations. Keep in mind charts like this are notoriously inaccurate for individual set ups. Good place to start though.

Your pictures look like pretty significant contact, do you hear anything that might be the shaft hitting the riser? A click or tap? You might have multiple issues going on. The arrows are probably stiffer than they should be. Her form is still developing and her release is probably a little rough. I would try to get her a few lighter spine arrows, Lancaster's website says they sell them individually. Buy a few heavier points. Try cock feather out. See if you can eliminate the hardware issue, it's no fun to fight the bow. Try these things one at a time though, otherwise you don't know where your'e at.

Listen to what people on this site say, and listen to Lancaster. In general I have great respect for both places.


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## spinsheet

I think that this warrants another trip to Lancaster. I still have a lot of respect for those guys, they've been great with us so far. If I can at least go up there and show them her arrows and her bow then at least we have a good starting point and can go from there. I looked at that spin calculator, wow. That gave me a headache, I'll have to give that one another look. I have no idea what it's trying to tell me.

There is enough room to cut them and add heavier points, I believe that she is shooting 80 grain point now. I'll see what they say at Lancaster. Maybe we can get up there in a couple of weeks.


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## Easykeeper

The yellow on the chart shows the range of the Predator 800s. Left column is draw weight, at 18# she is right on the edge between two rows. Since she draw shorter that 28", I'd favor the top row. Along the top of the chart is the arrow length. The 700s are not that much too stiff, but she would probably be better off with the lighter spine. You could maybe call Lancaster and save a trip. Chart lost a lot of resolution when I downsized it for the web...maybe it will be readable.


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## spinsheet

Do you have a URL for that chart? I really can't read whats on it but I would love to


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## Easykeeper

Here's the link to the PDF:

http://www.carbonexpressarrows.com/sites/default/files/CX_2012_TargetArrows.pdf


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## spinsheet

OK, I found the guide, thanks for posting that. I see that for a 25" PT (she shoots 25.5") at 700 spine that the lightest bow that they show it for is a 46# bow. Am I reading it correctly that a 25" PT spined at 800 is good for a range of 45# - 19#? Seems like a pretty big range, but of course I'm not at all knowledgeable about these things (although I'm sure you've figured this out by now).

Is there anything that she could be doing that could be causing this kind of contact? I realize that we have done nothing to tune the bow. We did shoot through the paper for a bit and like I previously mentioned 1 out of 4 arrows tore the paper horizontally. This shows some obvious inconsistency in her form which is what I attributed the 1 out of 4 too. I figured (perhaps wrongly) that if it needed tuning then they all would have shown tearing. It's going to be tough to tune until her form is more consistent anyway (at least I would assume that).

We'll probable end up driving up there as I would like them to see the bow just to make sure that everything is considered before choosing arrows. Besides, there is a great little diner up there that we love to have lunch in


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## GEREP

Spin:

This thread has taken a lot of twists and turns and has gone off on a few tangents but after looking at your pics, it is obvious that your arrows are too stiff and making heavy contact with your riser. As I said in my first post on this thread:

*"Now, if the arrow is too stiff and doesn't flex as it should, even with cock feather in, the cock feather can make contact with the riser and cause the wear you are talking about." *

If I were you, I'd just pack your stuff up, take it to John Wert at Lancaster, and show him what is happening. I feel quite confident that he will make it right.

As to all the different directions your thread took, understand please that this is a common occurance on these boards. One thing will get mentioned and all of a sudden a detour is taken, passions are stoked, jabs are taken, and we're off to the races.

Believe it or not, a lot can be learned from these exchanges. Theories are tested, some are proven right, some are proven wrong, and some are just tucked away to be debated again and again and again. 

Just the nature of the beast.

Good luck getting everything worked out. Like I said, I'm sure Lancaster will do right by you.

KPC


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## Easykeeper

The 25" you mentioned is probably from the top row, which is _arrow_ length, not to be confused with draw length. Usually arrows are one to several inches longer than _draw_ length. The left hand vertical column is rated draw length usually referenced to 28" draw length. If your wife is drawing 25.5", she is holding a few pounds less than the rated draw weight of the bow, assuming the draw weight is measured at 28". It should say on the limbs...18#@xx". 

No matter how is shakes out, according to the chart she should probably be shooting an 800 spine. The horizontal tears could be spine related, but also very likely a release issue. The release or "loose" of the string from the fingers is one of the hardest things to learn. Don't worry, much fun can be had before one masters the release. I have been shooting most of my life and still have a ways to go in that department. Get the arrows figured out, shoot and have fun.


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## spinsheet

What I did to find her draw length was to have her draw back an arrow and then I used a sharpie to place a mark on it right at the back of the bow (right at its final contact with the shelf). Then I measured from that mark to the V (the throat?) in the nock. I took this as both the arrow length and her draw length. Is that wrong? We don't really need, nor want, the arrow to extend any past the back of the bow as we do not hunt or gap shoot.

Thanks all for everything, I learned a lot this evening. Everyone seems to have their own ways of doing things and it's all good, it's what makes the sport fun and interesting.


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## Easykeeper

That's close enough for draw length. There's no point in trying to measure it precisely, it will probably change as her form develops anyway. There's also nothing wrong with the arrow being longer than the minimum length, especially in this situation with her relatively low draw weight. An arrow a couple of inches longer is most likely going to work to her advantage.

Once her form is consistent the "official" way to measure draw length is to have the archer come to full draw, make a mark on the arrow at the deepest part of the _grip_, measure from the mark to the throat of the grip like you did, then add 1.75". This eliminates the differences in riser depth between bows. You really don't need to be that precise though, what you did is close enough.


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