# Interesting comment from Brady Ellison



## BulletDrop (Jan 8, 2019)

And?


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## Bob Furman (May 16, 2012)

Read Brady's last comment. Many people are always convinced that most top male archers are shooting 55+ pounds. He clearly states that he is shooting under 50 and still setting records.

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## grantmac (May 31, 2007)

Remember when I said that Brady knew his way around a squat rack?


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## Bob Furman (May 16, 2012)

grantmac said:


> Remember when I said that Brady knew his way around a squat rack?


Yes, I sure do, but I only see him doing calf raises....lol

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## Vittorio (Jul 17, 2003)

Unfortunately WA live videos don't show anymore arrow speed (and wind speed and direction too) anymore. Then we cannopt really judge what is happening in terms of real poundafe shot by recurve achers. 

I can only say that at present the italian national teams is at around 65# for Nespoli, 59# for Pasqualucci and 55# for Galiazzo. 
Gazoz has commented to be at around 55#, Woojin Kim at around 53#

May be in March Brady was in the gymn to get back > 50 ..... 

In 1996 in Atlanta Petterson was at 56# and my son at 53#, nothing changed so much in 20 years (apart from mauro Nespoli ) as far as top poundages ar e concerned


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## PregnantGuppy (Jan 15, 2011)

Vittorio said:


> In 1996 in Atlanta Petterson was at 56# and my son at 53#, nothing changed so much in 20 years (apart from mauro Nespoli ) as far as top poundages ar e concerned


Well, we have gotten noticeably lighter arrows and faster limbs in those 20 years (actually the X10 is older than 20 years now, correct?). So even if draw weights stagnate, arrow speeds are still probably higher.

I also wonder how much of the higher draw weights comes from machismo more than any need for higher speeds. Plenty of women shoot under 50lbs and still outshoot practically everyone posting here. Or perhaps it really is the distinguishing factor between the genders. It's hard to make a fair comparison there, though.


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## Vittorio (Jul 17, 2003)

PregnantGuppy said:


> Well, we have gotten noticeably lighter arrows and faster limbs in those 20 years (actually the X10 is older than 20 years now, correct?). So even if draw weights stagnate, arrow speeds are still probably higher.
> 
> I also wonder how much of the higher draw weights comes from machismo more than any need for higher speeds. Plenty of women shoot under 50lbs and still outshoot practically everyone posting here. Or perhaps it really is the distinguishing factor between the genders. It's hard to make a fair comparison there, though.


Arrows speed are slower then they were, my son was shooting ACE's in Atlanta, not all were shooting X10 already, as X10 have been made available only few months before to the majoriy of the teams. 

Poundages were even highter at the time when the 2114 X7 had to hit 90 mt, those were really slower... 

High poundage gives a lot of advantages, but you must be able to control it. Other few prefer to be controlled by the poundage, but that is another story.


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## >--gt--> (Jul 1, 2002)

Vittorio said:


> In 1996 in Atlanta Petterson was at 56# and my son at 53#, nothing changed so much in 20 years (apart from mauro Nespoli ) as far as top poundages ar e concerned


...but the winner of those games, Justin Huish, was at 45#. 'Power is nothing without control', as the Pirelli tire people like to say.


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## tunedlow (Nov 7, 2012)

In one of the Shrewd videos, Brady mentioned shooting about #45 outdoors.


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## Cuthbert (Nov 28, 2005)

Higher poundage can clean up form errors. If you want to scare yourself, reduce your poundage about 15-20lbs and look at your groups. Better yet do it with unfletched arrows. It's a riot.


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## Arsi (May 14, 2011)

Where do the trade-offs occur with regard to draw weight, arrow weight, and speed? If you go up in draw weight, I would assume you would need to increase spine, which in turn gives you a heavier arrow, which slows it down again. Is the benefit to increased draw weight to be able to shoot a heavier arrow and thus less affected by wind?


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## Bob Furman (May 16, 2012)

Cuthbert said:


> Higher poundage can clean up form errors. If you want to scare yourself, reduce your poundage about 15-20lbs and look at your groups. Better yet do it with unfletched arrows. It's a riot.


I would have to say that higher poundages "hides" form errors, not clean up. 

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## Bob Furman (May 16, 2012)

>--gt--> said:


> ...but the winner of those games, Justin Huish, was at 45#. 'Power is nothing without control', as the Pirelli tire people like to say.


+1

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## mentalreboot (Jan 1, 2013)

Cuthbert said:


> Higher poundage can clean up form errors. If you want to scare yourself, reduce your poundage about 15-20lbs and look at your groups. Better yet do it with unfletched arrows. It's a riot.


I scare myself everyday like this!


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## Cuthbert (Nov 28, 2005)

Bob Furman said:


> I would have to say that higher poundages "hides" form errors, not clean up.
> 
> Sent from my LM-Q710(FGN) using Tapatalk


In this case, same thing.


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## f_thomas (Oct 12, 2006)

I have added to raises to my warmup. It will help me shoot like Brady. I wish! LOL!


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## grantmac (May 31, 2007)

Bob Furman said:


> Yes, I sure do, but I only see him doing calf raises....lol
> 
> Sent from my LM-Q710(FGN) using Tapatalk


His post said [email protected] which isn't a big number for a power lifter but for someone who supposedly doesn't lift weights it's pretty darn good. Especially given the comments from people about "wasting time" in the gym when you could be shooting or doing SPTs.


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## jmvargas (Oct 21, 2004)

Vittorio said:


> Unfortunately WA live videos don't show anymore arrow speed (and wind speed and direction too) anymore. Then we cannopt really judge what is happening in terms of real poundafe shot by recurve achers.
> 
> I can only say that at present the italian national teams is at around 65# for Nespoli, 59# for Pasqualucci and 55# for Galiazzo.
> Gazoz has commented to be at around 55#, Woojin Kim at around 53#
> ...


....I am in awe and amazed at these poundages..

kinda reminds me of how much golf distances have progressed thru the years..

....due mostly to technological advances in equipment and increased physical conditioning of the the athletes..


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## Vittorio (Jul 17, 2003)

Anyway, everyone is still asking "how many poundages he draws?" but not "how many pounds he lifts?"
Gym made by Mauro Nespoli is totally different from gym made by Brady Ellison, but Brady's bow is the heaviest on any shooting field ( all those disk weights are made by tungsten..)


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## dschonbrun (Nov 14, 2012)

Higher poundage yields more potential energy. This translates to higher KE, meaning that an archer can shoot a heavier arrow at the same velocity. Heavier arrows are less affected by wind (all things being equal). That said, the most important thing is form. If too high a holding weight causes compromised form, the higher resulting KE of the arrow isn’t worth it.


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## ouki (Nov 29, 2016)

It was during Olympic year he went up to 56lbs. I wonder if he'll eventually move up to it again, especially as he gyms more. Granted maybe this year he won't feel it's necessary as his fingers are happy where they're at now.


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## Bob Furman (May 16, 2012)

You can throw in all the theories and arguments, but Archery is not a speed contest! The Koreans know this and continue to dominant the sport at less than 48# for men and around 42# for woman. You see many top archers shooting high poundages at some point, but eventually go back to a lower more manageable weight that they can control well.

The few that manage to stay at these high poundages never quite seem to pull off being at the top.

Makes me wonder how much better these archers could of been if they weren't so hung up with shooting high poundages?

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## lksseven (Mar 21, 2010)

Cuthbert said:


> Higher poundage can clean up form errors. If you want to scare yourself, reduce your poundage about 15-20lbs and look at your groups. Better yet do it with unfletched arrows. It's a riot.


This is a brutal exercise, psychologically. Everything feels so wonderful and effortless, like setting up to shoot a free throw in basketball. Easy 'zero balance/alignment' acquisition, easy hold, easy expansion, the clicker goes click and your brain says "String fingers, relax". Waiting. Waiting. Waiting. Then 3 seconds later, the fingers obey. Or at least two of them do. Maybe the index or third finger is day dreaming, and doesn't relax. 

After enough of that self induced humiliation, then the irony of ironies - at the lighter draw weight, the catastrophic loss of timing and fluidity is so much in your head that you start to lockup and freeze as you approach clicker break, and you find that the clicker is harder to get through that it was when you were pulling the 12 pounds heavier weight. Hilarious (not). 

https://youtu.be/bIZoVO8ZyyQ


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## lksseven (Mar 21, 2010)

>--gt--> said:


> ...but the winner of those games, Justin Huish, was at 45#. 'Power is nothing without control', as the Pirelli tire people like to say.


Of course, as you say, for each individual archer, the governor is 'staying within oneself'. 

But, to Vittorio's - and others'' - There's gotta be a reason ,in the general, that most of these high level, informed archers are striving so hard to increase their strength and draw weight. On windy days, aiming at the edge of the 10 ring all day is certainly an advantage statistically over aiming at the edge of the 9 ring. 

In Atlanta '96, the wind was zero - flags hanging as limp as spaghetti. Not that this 'made' Justin's victory, but conditions were such as to not favor the higher draw weight archers.

I've noticed many times in World Cup matches that if the wind's not blowing, the women shoot every bit as good (scores, groups) as the men. If the wind is up, <not so much>.


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## Vittorio (Jul 17, 2003)

Bob Furman said:


> You can throw in all the theories and arguments, but Archery is not a speed contest! The Koreans know this and continue to dominant the sport at less than 48# for men and around 42# for woman. ....


I personally asked in London 2012 to the Korean men team members what poundage they were shooting, and they were all > 50# on fingers already then. Park S.N was known to shoot #44 pounds already at her time, and Kim WJ recently has confirmed to be at 53.
Nope that in a windy day at top level a 45# archer can win any match against a 55# archer.
Then of course many get overbowed because do not understand that power without control is useless (GT & Pirelli quoted here), but power + control is the winning choice. And, I have to add, power + control + ultra heavy bow is even better ..


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## lcaillo (Jan 5, 2014)

Arsi said:


> Where do the trade-offs occur with regard to draw weight, arrow weight, and speed? If you go up in draw weight, I would assume you would need to increase spine, which in turn gives you a heavier arrow, which slows it down again. Is the benefit to increased draw weight to be able to shoot a heavier arrow and thus less affected by wind?


The relationship between spine and mass is not the same for all arrows. I have X10 and McKinney shafts and the latter are very slightly stiffer but significantly lighter. They drift a little more in the wind but I gain velocity. Overall, I prefer the trade-off of the lower drift of the X10 but you hit the mark by asking about the trade-offs. They are subtle in many cases and different in meaning for different shooters.

Higher draw weights definitely make for a more forgiving release, but as an old guy who can't train constantly I shoot 35-36 pounds. I would like to shoot more mostly for a better release but the speed is adequate with modern equipment. My setup is faster now than in the 70s with 10 pounds more draw and aluminum shafts.


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## bahboric (Aug 22, 2013)

Vittorio said:


> Anyway, everyone is still asking "how many poundages he draws?" but not "how many pounds he lifts?"
> Gym made by Mauro Nespoli is totally different from gym made by Brady Ellison, but Brady's bow is the heaviest on any shooting field ( all those disk weights are made by tungsten..)


I'd be interested if anyone knew what exercises Brady and Nespoli are doing in the weight room. Are there specific exercises with weights they are doing for archery? One reason I ask is that none of the exercises I've tried have resulted in the ability to shoot significantly higher poundage.


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## chrstphr (Nov 23, 2005)

Shooting the bow works your way up to higher poundages. The weight room exercises are for core stability, abdomen, back and legs. 


Chris


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## lksseven (Mar 21, 2010)

chrstphr said:


> Shooting the bow works your way up to higher poundages. The weight room exercises are for core stability, abdomen, back and legs.
> 
> 
> Chris


/\ This /\


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## >--gt--> (Jul 1, 2002)

lksseven said:


> In Atlanta '96, the wind was zero - flags hanging as limp as spaghetti. Not that this 'made' Justin's victory, but conditions were such as to not favor the higher draw weight archers.


Not true. 

In Justin vs Magnus' match, there was a shifting breeze from left to right, midway across the field. The large electromechanical scoreboard on the left effectively blocked this wind at the target and made the target flags, as well as the FITA, Olympic and US flags behind that, less useful as visual indicators. 

It's one of several reasons why FITA later adopted other wind gauging devices, such as wind socks and anemometers, on competition fields.


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## lksseven (Mar 21, 2010)

Thanks, >--gt-->. On the youtube video, all I saw were limp flags hanging, so that's cool to know.


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## dschonbrun (Nov 14, 2012)

chrstphr said:


> Shooting the bow works your way up to higher poundages. The weight room exercises are for core stability, abdomen, back and legs.
> 
> 
> Chris


Chris, I’m going to challenge you here. Someone might misread your post and think they can shoot their way to #50 limbs.

National team workout guidelines for archers (those that I’ve read) include arms, chest, shoulder, neck, back, leg exercises for strength, balance, and flexibility.

Loading and holding are handed/asymmetric actions. They involve spine and shoulder rotation in only one direction. To avoid injury, archers must train muscles equally in opposition.

You can’t simply go up in poundage very far just by shooting... you have to train the muscles in opposition, otherwise you risk altering the skeleton permanently, and/or serious injury.

D




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## lksseven (Mar 21, 2010)

dschonbrun said:


> Chris, I’m going to challenge you here. Someone might misread your post and think they can shoot their way to #50 limbs.
> 
> National team workout guidelines for archers (those that I’ve read) include arms, chest, shoulder, neck, back, leg exercises for strength, balance, and flexibility.
> 
> ...


Nothing wrong with general fitness workouts in the gym. Or SPT's. And using 4-6lb heavier bows in SPTs to build archery strength is something the guys in the 70s and 80s wished they had thought to do. But," Can't go up in poundage very far just by shooting" ?? Well, that'll be news to the guys in 70's and 80's (who did not much weight training) who were winning all the collegiate nationals, and nationals, and worlds, pulling 49-51lb and shooting 2114 aluminums at 90meters.


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## Bob Furman (May 16, 2012)

dschonbrun said:


> Chris, I’m going to challenge you here. Someone might misread your post and think they can shoot their way to #50 limbs.
> 
> National team workout guidelines for archers (those that I’ve read) include arms, chest, shoulder, neck, back, leg exercises for strength, balance, and flexibility.
> 
> ...


It's called progressive resistance training. Also see isometric training. I'm pretty sure most archers world wide started shooting a light bow around 20-25# and worked up to something in the 40-45# range. Getting into some of HIIT training methods will definitely boost your staining and strength as well.

There's always plan b [emoji16]

You don't get a second chance to make a first impression.


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## dschonbrun (Nov 14, 2012)

lksseven said:


> Nothing wrong with general fitness workouts in the gym. Or SPT's. And using 4-6lb heavier bows in SPTs to build archery strength is something the guys in the 70s and 80s wished they had thought to do. But," Can't go up in poundage very far just by shooting" ?? Well, that'll be news to the guys in 70's and 80's (who did not much weight training) who were winning all the collegiate nationals, and nationals, and worlds, pulling 49-51lb and shooting 2114 aluminums at 90meters.


Those pros from the 70’s and 80’s.... Take a look at their draw arms, fingers on their draw hand, and their spines. How many of them have major back problems?

It’s not to say it’s impossible... the point is that if you only strengthen one side of the body, it has long term musculoskeletal consequences.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

dschonbrun said:


> Those pros from the 70’s and 80’s.... Take a look at their draw arms, fingers on their draw hand, and their spines. How many of them have major back problems?
> 
> It’s not to say it’s impossible... the point is that if you only strengthen one side of the body, it has long term musculoskeletal consequences.
> 
> ...


I've heard this for decades and I'm not sure it's factual.

Sounds good though.


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## chrstphr (Nov 23, 2005)

dschonbrun said:


> Those pros from the 70’s and 80’s.... Take a look at their draw arms, fingers on their draw hand, and their spines. How many of them have major back problems?
> 
> It’s not to say it’s impossible... the point is that if you only strengthen one side of the body, it has long term musculoskeletal consequences.
> 
> ...


I so wish people would stop with this equaize the body myth. 

If you are right handed, do you do additional workouts with your left to make sure both arms are the same size? Do you insert your car key with the opposite hand to keep your hands equal? Do golfers, basball hitter switch and hit opposite handed to keep their back and muscles equal? Do right handed pitchers throw left handed and work the left arm to keep things equal? Do football quarterbacks learn to throw with their opposite hand to keep the back muscles equal?

The answer is no. Tiger woods doesnt golf left handed to equalize. 

The archers in the 60s and 70s dont have back issues from shooting one sided. Last i saw Rick Mckiney shooting, he was still handlig a recurve like he meant it.

Shooting the bow and going up ½ pound at a time for months is the way to build strength, stamina and control. Slow increments. No one goes to the gym and lifts heavy and then jumps 10 lbs in bow weight. 

I have yet to see any archer with an abbormally sized half back due to the load of drawing. Honestly the only thing i have ever seen change in size asymetrically is the fingers on the string hand. They will thicken. But the rest of the body, 50 lbs isnt enough. Bones in english longbowmen have been found to be larger due to the 150 lb bow poundage. Thats pretty much it. From 16-54lbs, its not enough to distort the muscles, especially the back muscles. 

Weight training, cardio, cross training are all good. But going up in poundage is done shooting the bow and slowly increasing the turns on the tiller bolts. 

Of course, this is my opinion, i am not an expert in the human body under load. But i do understand how the body deals with archery bow shooting and the loads involved there. And i do know how to get an archer from a low starting weight to a competitive national bow weight.

I would be curious to see how you do using your method. 

You certainly can shoot your way to 50+ pounds. I did it from 36-54# over 4 years. And i didnt spend a single day of it in the gym. All my students go up in poundage with control shooting the bow. 

Nothing beats shooting the bow to learn control with the exact muscles you will use. That is why all national teams spend the most training time shooting. Not in the gym.

And in linear shot, the spine isnt twisted, nor is the loading one sided. And there isnt shoulder rotation like with NTS. There is no core twisting in linear. 

Linear uses leverage and the bone structure to deal with the load. The muscles are not the main component for bearing the load. Perhaps that is the case with NTS.

The linear shot is relaxed, leveraged and if done right effortless, which is why the Korean olympic archers can shoot such high volume arrows per day/week. 


Chris


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## Skropi (Jan 1, 2019)

I am the least experienced archer here, so my opinion probably doesn't carry as much weight, but I have to say that I hate the gym. I love working out, but outdoors, field games etc. 
I started shooting 29# in January, and now I can shoot 41-42# all day with control. I am shooting 45.6# now to get better at the higher draw weight, but thats another story.
The only workout I do is rotator cuff strengthening because I have tendonitis in my drawing shoulder, and a labrum tear in my bow one. 
Nothing wrong with the gym though, I just prefer to spend the time I would be in the gym in the field, shooting!


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## lksseven (Mar 21, 2010)

dschonbrun said:


> Those pros from the 70’s and 80’s.... Take a look at their draw arms, fingers on their draw hand, and their spines. How many of them have major back problems?
> 
> It’s not to say it’s impossible... the point is that if you only strengthen one side of the body, it has long term musculoskeletal consequences.
> 
> ...


Who?

The archers I had in mind and was referencing in general are the well known recurvers - Rick McKinney, Darrell Pace, Jay Barr, Vic Wunderle, John Magera, Tom Stevenson, Glenn Meyers .. most of them shot relentlessly for many many years at the highest level, all were close to or over 50lb DW, and got there by - primarily - shooting the bow. And none of them are misshapen or crippled up from uneven work loads on their musculature or skeletal frames. 

And look at all the small framed (or certainly not large framed) female elite shooters - their draw arms all look as smooth and "non ripped" as a baby's arm, yet are pulling high 30's to low 40's for zillions of arrows (many more arrows than likely will be shot in their careers by anyone reading this thread). And none of them misshapen at all. 

In principle, I agree with your point that gym work and a goal of balanced exercise/development is an excellent goal. But I agree with Chris in the practical that 50lb is just not enough load to create a noticeable kind of consequential imbalance and function. 


In an angle I found interesting, Rick has stated recently that the biggest obstacle to precise shooting - beyond the 'normal upper range' of draw weight - was the fingers. That while you could build the strength through shooting to handle more draw weight, it was difficult for the fingers to maintain their touch and feel at the highest weights.
A teammate of Rick's in college also commented that 'back in the day' another limiter on draw weight was that they didn't have an arrow stiff enough and light enough to be competitive at 90meters. Aluminum 2114 was their best choice, and the 2115 was just too heavy to make the distance at an acceptable speed/arc.

Rick, where are you? This is your fat lady's operatic cue ...


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## tunedlow (Nov 7, 2012)

chrstphr said:


> I so wish people would stop with this equaize the body myth.
> 
> If you are right handed, do you do additional workouts with your left to make sure both arms are the same size? Do you insert your car key with the opposite hand to keep your hands equal? Do golfers, basball hitter switch and hit opposite handed to keep their back and muscles equal? Do right handed pitchers throw left handed and work the left arm to keep things equal? Do football quarterbacks learn to throw with their opposite hand to keep the back muscles equal?


Can only speak for martial arts because- yes -we did/do perform additional workouts for your non-dominant side. I think the training for handedness in specific sports may not be as crucial but in the fighting sports you are at a disadvantage if you do not equally strength train and purposefully work on both sides if your body for strength and stability. This is kinda like going up against an opponent who can only really punch, kick, throw or land/roll/grapple on one side because the other is untrained. As an instructor, I used to really stress bi-lateral strength training with new students because, for instance, you can really see when someone is bad at falling on one side of their body and that, in my experience, has led to injuries such as dislocated joints, broken clavicles -or worse- landing on your neck and head because you didn't train to take a fall on both sides of your body well enough. Seen enough of those bad holy sh*t type injuries in people to know that overall training is a pretty important thing to parallel skills training.

For archery, if training overall body fitness had no purpose then I would think the OTC trainers wouldn't stress the whole body exercises as part of the archer's training program. Sure, shooting gives you the strength to do your main job but I'd like to imagine from a healthcare perspective that overall conditioning is the foundation that makes all of that shooting consistently at a high level work well.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Chris is correct here. This "balanced forces" thing is an urban legend, most likely brought on by the tales of lopsided skeletons found from medieval Europe due to shooting 100+ lb. bows of war. 

I've shot heavy traditional bows most of my life. If I'm lopsided, it's not because of the bows.

However, I would agree that the fingers are the weak link. Not the muscles or skeleton. I spent more time caring for my fingers than any other injury. When I was shooting 1000+ arrows/week, I would sand my callouses daily and use lotion to soften them up. I often wrapped my ring finger with Coban as well.


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## chrstphr (Nov 23, 2005)

tunedlow said:


> For archery, if training overall body fitness had no purpose then I would think the OTC trainers wouldn't stress the whole body exercises as part of the archer's training program. Sure, shooting gives you the strength to do your main job but I'd like to imagine from a healthcare perspective that overall conditioning is the foundation that makes all of that shooting consistently at a high level work well.


I never said overall gym training wasnt beneficial. In fact i stated that weights, cardio and cross training were good for archery. i just said there is no need to train the opposite side muscles on purpose to equalize. That is a myth. 

archery doesnt need a strong bow hand, it needs a relaxed one. it needs a strong bow arm, but no stronger than needed to push the bow away. it can be stronger or weaker than the other arm, it doesnt matter. That is why people are left handed or right handed. There is a favored side which performs functions better and that favored side is beneficial to better accuracy. But having both sides be equal again doesnt matter. Archery doesnt need equality, it needs 
function. Which better functions, right side or left side? That is the side you shoot. And olympic recurve archery doesnt distort the body even with the elite training levels. The South Koreans shoot more than anyone. They are not ripped from the gym. 

Archery needs core strength. Abs, legs, back. Some people have it without much training just from their day job and every day functions. Others need the gym. I sling 50 lb boxes through out the day. Lifting, stacking etc. I do not need the gym for working my back muscles. and my rock hard abs are well hidden by my one pack belly. 

Gym training has its place. But nothing beats shooting the bow. period. So sorry to crush the archers who think shooting once per week and gym time 4 days per week is making any progress with archery. 

again, interested to see the results of someone working up to 50+ range on a recurve by mostly doing gym training and much less bow work. 

Chris


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## tunedlow (Nov 7, 2012)

chrstphr said:


> Which better functions, right side or left side? That is the side you shoot. And olympic recurve archery doesnt distort the body even with the elite training levels. The South Koreans shoot more than anyone. They are not ripped from the gym.


I thought shooting was based on eye dominance rather than physical strength dominance?

I've long known that being ripped is not an archery thing and looking at most competition lines demonstrate it ain't a body building sport for aesthetics. Just seemed logical that overall body conditioning was a beneficial thing but not super crucial for archery as it is for power lifting, fighting sports or activities like rock/sport climbing.


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## chrstphr (Nov 23, 2005)

tunedlow said:


> I thought shooting was based on eye dominance rather than physical strength dominance?


not when i coach. 

eye dominance is over rated and not a factor. It is an issue that is corrected and dealt with/ trained. Minimal issue at best and not anywhere near as crucial as form ability. Im Donghyun can barely see. Doesnt seem to affect him.

plenty of archers are wrong dominant eye. form ability is always the most important. Olympic recurve isnt an aiming sport. Its a form repetition sport. 

In the end, the way to go up in poundage is in increments shooting the bow over time slowing increasing the poundage. That is the way. Plain and simple. 

Nothing else substitutes. Coaching helps, but nothing substitutes. 

Its like saying, I am going to start competing in Marathons. So i need strong legs. So i will spend most all my time working out legs in the gym, and then go compete and run 25 miles. There isnt much specific correlation. Same with weight workouts in the gym and archery. 



Chris


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## lksseven (Mar 21, 2010)

Agree with Chris about eye dominance being a non-issue if addressed correctly. I'm in the 'shoot your hand' camp, not the 'shoot your eye' camp.


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## dschonbrun (Nov 14, 2012)

Chris, when did you last take your L2? The curriculum for NYS has been updated quite a bit.

D


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## chrstphr (Nov 23, 2005)

dschonbrun said:


> Chris, when did you last take your L2? The curriculum for NYS has been updated quite a bit.
> 
> D


I received my certification 4 or 5 years ago. I do not teach NTS, nor have I ever. I teach the linear shot that the Korean's shoot. I have an L2 certificate since its required to have my JOAD. All my students shoot linear. I had one archer that shot NTS that joined my JOAD. She switched to linear after a trip to Korea after a few months. None of my archers shoot anything NTS (aside from one RA who Coach Woo pushes to shoot it, and who has been injured most of her time there). But that is another story. 

The day i have to teach NTS or need anything higher than my current L2 to keep the JOAD, is the day I let the JOAD go. If i could keep the JOAD without the certification, i would let it lapse. 

I dont mind the safe sport and other stuff, but the coaching certification in USA archery is a joke. Two of my archers received their level 1 and 2 certs. They did not even shoot a bow during the entire certification process. They had to give safety instruction to the one giving the class on how to string a bow. But that is also another story. 

I have nothing else to learn from the NTS system, and could if i chose debunk most of it for the bio mechanical properties it proclaims. But that also is another story. 

I cant tell you how many archers contact me who are done with NTS and want to learn the Linear shot. I have now quite a number of internet students getting video coaching from me specifically because there are no coaches where they are, or the only coaches are NTS and that didnt work for the archer. 

I have to admit, the understanding of the Linear shot process in the archery community is appalling, even with US national coaches.

i have been making efforts to change that. I have been giving online seminars on the linear shot for several months, and doing the best i can to educate others on that shot sequence. All the ones who have attended my seminar, it has changed how they think about shooting as much as changing how they shoot. 

I have badly derailed this thread into a form debate which is not what the thread is about, so i will stop posting now. 


Chris


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## Skropi (Jan 1, 2019)

So, when I claim that I don't really aim when shooting slingshot and bows, at least now I know I am in the right track! 
I always believed that aiming isn't something that should be done conciously. The only concious focus when I shoot, is in specific elements of my form, and even when the pin is, let's say, yellow/red 1 o'clock, I dont care, I just focus on my form and let go, letting my brain make any last minute adjustments to send the arrow to the middle, and yes, it works...when my form is spot on.

As for the linear method, I am surprised that it's not more widespread.... I mean, it helped me shoot better immediately after Chris exposed me to it, and what is more important, it really allows me to know why a bad shot was bad. Its a system based on the most important thing in life....common sense. Oh, and it's the style that allowed me to cut cards and hit matchstick head size targets with my slingshots, only that then, I didn't know about archery or the linear shot, we just figured it out as a community, as the most logical way to shoot consistently.


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## kentsabrina (Aug 23, 2017)

chrstphr said:


> dschonbrun said:
> 
> 
> > Chris, when did you last take your L2? The curriculum for NYS has been updated quite a bit.
> ...


Chris where I can purchase ur online seminar or material??

I need all the help to improve my performance

Thx~


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## chrstphr (Nov 23, 2005)

kentsabrina said:


> Chris where I can purchase ur online seminar or material??
> 
> I need all the help to improve my performance
> 
> Thx~


Pm me here or message me on facebook. 

Chris


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## tunedlow (Nov 7, 2012)

lksseven said:


> Agree with Chris about eye dominance being a non-issue if addressed correctly. I'm in the 'shoot your hand' camp, not the 'shoot your eye' camp.


Ah. I thought handedness was secondary to eye dominance. Kinda worked out for me that eye dominance also worked together with my dominant side though since shooting I've since met people who shoot with a non-dominant eye.

I was curious about Im Donghyun - is the guy legally blind or he just has bad eyesight? I agree that form ability trumps being able to see since I subscribe to the passive aiming camp when I shoot and train.


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## lksseven (Mar 21, 2010)

tunedlow said:


> Ah. I thought handedness was secondary to eye dominance. Kinda worked out for me that eye dominance also worked together with my dominant side though since shooting I've since met people who shoot with a non-dominant eye.
> 
> I was curious about Im Donghyun - is the guy legally blind or he just has bad eyesight? I agree that form ability trumps being able to see since I subscribe to the passive aiming camp when I shoot and train.


For some people. "eye dominance" being the lead dog does end up being the best option. But I like to start people off with their dominant hand and then go from there.

IM Dong - I have it in my memory that his vision is 20-200 in one eye and 20-100 in the other. Maybe someone else knows if he normally shoots with corrective lenses of one sort or another. Can't swear it's true, but I've heard his quip about his eyesight is "Well, all I see down there is a blur of colors, but .... the middle of the blur is still the middle." I always liked that line.


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## tunedlow (Nov 7, 2012)

lksseven said:


> For some people. "eye dominance" being the lead dog does end up being the best option. But I like to start people off with their dominant hand and then go from there.
> 
> IM Dong - I have it in my memory that his vision is 20-200 in one eye and 20-100 in the other. Maybe someone else knows if he normally shoots with corrective lenses of one sort or another. Can't swear it's true, but I've heard his quip about his eyesight is "Well, all I see down there is a blur of colors, but .... the middle of the blur is still the middle." I always liked that line.


That is indeed a great line. I find that the more I shoot -and shoot well- it is because i listen to my form and just let the circle float in the general area of the middle.


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## lksseven (Mar 21, 2010)

tunedlow said:


> That is indeed a great line. I find that the more I shoot -and shoot well- it is because i listen to my form and just let the circle float in the general area of the middle.


Yes. Let your internal forces find their 'zero', and then be patient for that 'zero balance' to merge with a decelerating sight float ; when those two things come together, that's the artistic moment.


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## chrstphr (Nov 23, 2005)

tunedlow said:


> That is indeed a great line. I find that the more I shoot -and shoot well- it is because i listen to my form and just let the circle float in the general area of the middle.


this interview with Kang gives quite a bit of info that has been bandied about in this thread. 

https://www.facebook.com/WorldArchery/videos/622689074880695/

One, the poundage she shoots 45lbs off the fingers. She shoots 500 arrows per day on a regular day, 300 on a light day. This is how she got from low poundage to a high poundage and maintains. She didnt say she does loads of gym training. She shoots a crap load of arrows per day. 

Second, they ask her about the timing of her shot. She says she is now more careful with her shot ( meaning the form of it) and her better shots are the quicker ones (because those are the shots more relaxed, confident and natural).

Third, they ask her about aiming. She says she doesnt pay much attention to it. She focuses on the target kinda, but it isnt what she focuses on. She focuses on her form. 

eye dominance, focusing on aiming etc is not that important. The brain will make sure you aim. The focus should be on form. This is from the world record holder who just broke her own world record. I would call that straight from the horses mouth. 

Chris


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## tunedlow (Nov 7, 2012)

chrstphr said:


> this interview with Kang gives quite a bit of info that has been bandied about in this thread.
> 
> https://www.facebook.com/WorldArchery/videos/622689074880695/
> 
> ...


Works well if a person can replicate all that and it works for them. If there is anything I've learned, shooting styles and how one finds "their" shot greatly varies. I'd imagine an athlete who competes in archery shoots more than they spend time in the gym. I mean, that is what you are training for in the first place. I've also talked to people that passively aim and that is their thing -and those that prefer a pin and do a more active thing. Whatever the case - one thing is clear - form is key. Letting your body find its zero and trying to be consistent with that is where the money shot can be found.

Not surprised they shoot lots of arrows though. Makes sense. Hell, if archery is your full time job -I don't know what else you'd be doing.


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## lcaillo (Jan 5, 2014)

lksseven said:


> Yes. Let your internal forces find their 'zero', and then be patient for that 'zero balance' to merge with a decelerating sight float ; when those two things come together, that's the artistic moment.


THAT shot! That is why we keep doing this.


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## Skropi (Jan 1, 2019)

Aiming actively is a mistake for me. My best shots, both with bows and slingshots, are those when I shoot fast enough, so I dont have time to start thinking about it. And when I say "best" shots, I mean shots deemed almost improbable with a slingshot. I do know that slingshots and bows share a great deal, so I transfer knowledge from one to the other. Its especially useful, as I can experiment with a slingshot without having fatigue issues, and then transfer to the bow the knowledge gained.


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## "TheBlindArcher" (Jan 27, 2015)

lksseven said:


> For some people. "eye dominance" being the lead dog does end up being the best option. But I like to start people off with their dominant hand and then go from there.
> 
> IM Dong - I have it in my memory that his vision is 20-200 in one eye and 20-100 in the other. Maybe someone else knows if he normally shoots with corrective lenses of one sort or another. Can't swear it's true, but I've heard his quip about his eyesight is "Well, all I see down there is a blur of colors, but .... the middle of the blur is still the middle." I always liked that line.




IIRC he has significant field loss [less than 20deg of visual field], so more like tunnel vision. And for some reason I thought in an interview he said he does not wear corrective lenses in competition, but again won't swear to that.


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