# Confusion about Bateman 3-under tab



## Jim Casto Jr (Aug 20, 2002)

"or here"

It goes close to your hand.


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## dnelsen (Dec 11, 2016)

Jim Casto Jr said:


> "or here"
> 
> It goes close to your hand.


That is baffling. If I put the finger loop around the digit closest to my hand it doesn't even come close to protecting my furthest digits from the string. My fingers are long but they're not THAT long. 

An AAE Elite large fits me perfectly. If I required an AAE Elite XL then maybe this would make sense.


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## rsarns (Sep 23, 2008)

When the hand is outright it will not extend that far but when you hook the string it should be close to the end of your fingers


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## dnelsen (Dec 11, 2016)

Yes, understood that when hooked around the string they cover more of the fingers. I guess they run really small. Large ain't large, that's for sure. And yet it's plenty wide. I guess they're sized for hobbit fingers.


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## emrah (Aug 28, 2012)

I don't know if mine is right, but i have the Eichler 3 tab and I set it so the leather covers my finger tips when extended (like they would be upon string release). Otherwise the string whacks my fingertips.

Emrah 


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## dnelsen (Dec 11, 2016)

emrah said:


> I don't know if mine is right, but i have the Eichler 3 tab and I set it so the leather covers my finger tips when extended (like they would be upon string release). Otherwise the string whacks my fingertips.
> 
> Emrah
> 
> ...


On which digit does the finger loop end up when you do this?


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## Halfcawkt (Dec 27, 2015)

Nelson, I too have the same problem with this tab. When I release, if close to the palm, the string will buzz my finger tips. Over time it becomes quite painful. 

To shoot it, I end up putting it the strap around the middle, close to the big knuckle. It feels less than ideal.


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## rsarns (Sep 23, 2008)

Where on your fingers do you have the string?


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## centershot (Sep 13, 2002)

Not every tab will fit you. I have smallish hands and long fingers. I cannot get the Jenkins signature tabs to work for me. If I get one that fits width wise then the tab is too short and the string zips my finger on release. I have settled on the Blackwidow 3-under tabs although always on the lookout for something better.


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## Halfcawkt (Dec 27, 2015)

I am using the BW tab as well. Same type of build, smaller hands, long skinny fingers.


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## Yooper-travler (Feb 28, 2011)

centershot said:


> Not every tab will fit you. I have smallish hands and long fingers. I cannot get the Jenkins signature tabs to work for me. If I get one that fits width wise then the tab is too short and the string zips my finger on release. I have settled on the Blackwidow 3-under tabs although always on the lookout for something better.


I agree. My son shoots the Bateman 3-under just fine but it bites my third digit a little. I also shoot a black widow 3-under (among others) as it fits me well. Sometimes you need to experiment a little to see what tab chooses you fingers.


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## dnelsen (Dec 11, 2016)

rsarns said:


> Where on your fingers do you have the string?


Slightly short of the joint on the middle finger (slightly deep hook), slightly past the joint on first and third finger (slightly not deep hook). So I guess you could say "partial deep hook".

My coach helped me figure this out, it works really well for me.

But regardless of how deep my hook is, the string will definitely wreck my fingertips with this "large" tab if I put the finger loop on the digit closest to the hand. It's puzzling how short it really is.

The conclusion here is that the Bateman 3 under tabs run quite short, but plenty wide. They are sized for stubby fingers.


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## Sanford (Jan 26, 2009)

dnelsen said:


> The conclusion here is that the Bateman 3 under tabs run quite short, but plenty wide. They are sized for stubby fingers.


Not really, as they just come almost pre-trimmed to length, whereas some others come with lots of extra length to trim.

You really only need protection where the string contacts under hold. If you have a clean, relaxed, finger release, the string should never touch the end digits of your fingers - really, nothing past where it was rested during holding. If it is, then you are more sliding the string off the fingers, which is technically a pluck. My Bateman fits just like the pictures above. Open hand, it just barely comes past the second joints of the two middle fingers. Closed hand, it just barely comes to the fingers' ends.

As stated above, the "or here" position is where tabs are made to rest for string depth alignment and stability.


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## dnelsen (Dec 11, 2016)

Sanford said:


> If you have a clean, relaxed, finger release, the string should never touch the end digits of your fingers - really, nothing past where it was rested during holding.


I don't understand how that's possible. It seems to me that you would need to open your fingers faster than the string moves. Please explain.


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## Sanford (Jan 26, 2009)

dnelsen said:


> I don't understand how that's possible. It seems to me that you would need to open your fingers faster than the string moves. Please explain.


You don't open your fingers. You just relax them and the string just knocks them away. If there's even 1/8" of material in front of the string, it will never be gone, so how could the string ever contact anything in front of that 1/8" of material.

You are correct, if the fingers are racing the string, the string will be faster. Don't control the fingers, and the string will make them move as fast as it does.


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## rsarns (Sep 23, 2008)

If you are opening your fingers you are inducing a creep and that is why the string is contacting your finger tips.


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## Demmer (Dec 1, 2012)

I'll run some pics soon about how to run the tab. Especially when string walking

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## Demmer (Dec 1, 2012)

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that's where I always put my tabs so I can run tight against the plate. The further from the plate you go, the more you run the risk of slightly varying your fingers. We all know a slight movement can lead to inconsistencies down range. Not really an issue with against the nock as much as it would be for stringwalking.







my tab may look short, but when I curl my fingers, you see it's trimmed perfectly

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## dnelsen (Dec 11, 2016)

Great post Demmer, thanks.

Yeah, if I hold my Bateman tab in exactly that fashion it doesn't cover anywhere near as much of my finger tips.

So while I (sort of) get what you guys are saying about a proper release, which I obviously need to get better at, this thing is still simply too small.

I'm going to buy some cordovan and make my own 3 under tab with a spare AAE Elite large plate that I have.


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## dnelsen (Dec 11, 2016)

And by the way, what the heck is a Yost finger tab? Looks sweet. Google knows not of such a thing.


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## grantmac (May 31, 2007)

Who makes that tab John? I really like the shape.


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## Demmer (Dec 1, 2012)

Eric Yost just started making them. He put a lot of effort coming up with a good shape that fits in the had and doesn't press against anything. Fits my hand well, so that's what I use now. Long time widow fan. I forget Eric's screen name here. 

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## Demmer (Dec 1, 2012)

dnelsen said:


> Great post Demmer, thanks.
> 
> Yeah, if I hold my Bateman tab in exactly that fashion it doesn't cover anywhere near as much of my finger tips.
> 
> ...


If you wanted to, I think Lancaster sells a cordavon square piece that might work. 

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## dnelsen (Dec 11, 2016)

Demmer said:


> If you wanted to, I think Lancaster sells a cordavon square piece that might work.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk


Yup. I already have a large AAE Elite plate, so I think I'm going to buy an AAE 3-under super leather face for the back, and a blank piece of cordovan (since they don't make a cordovan 3-under face)... then trace the super leather piece to make the cordovan face... then combine both to make a 2-layer tab.


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## Easykeeper (Jan 2, 2003)

dnelsen said:


> Yup. I already have a large AAE Elite plate, so I think I'm going to buy an AAE 3-under super leather face for the back, and a blank piece of cordovan (since they don't make a cordovan 3-under face)... then trace the super leather piece to make the cordovan face... then combine both to make a 2-layer tab.


You don't need a face made specifically for three under with the AAE Cavalier Elite. If I want to shoot three under I just remove the finger spacer from my Elite Cordovan. I actually prefer the split tab for three under to tabs that are one solid piece of leather.


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## xringer-10 (Apr 15, 2007)

Thanks John! My company is YOST Archery Products. I will be officially launching things within the next few days. Production is up and running now and if anyone is interested you can email me. I have well over a year of R&D and field testing with my friends and this tab is the result of those efforts. I aimed at making the most versatile and highest quality tab available at a price that won't break the bank. I hope I'm not breaking forum rules, but you can either PM me or email me at [email protected] with any questions that you may have about the tab. Thank you!

Some of the features are:

* CNC machined 6000 Series Aluminum
* Anodized protective finish
* Machine etched index, accents, and logo
- the index marks will never wear out unless you let a gorilla use one
* Machined through holes with radiused edges that allow the paracord to freely rotate on the plate
* Very comfortable shape that accommodates many hand sizes
* Humanely sources cordovan leather face
* comfortable suede backing with optional neoprene rubber
* Stainless fasteners
* 550 paracord
* Super strong cord lock
* The modular construction allows for years of abuse and tons of combinations for you to achieve a perfect fit
* Made in the USA
* $39.95 shipped to the lower 48


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## Sanford (Jan 26, 2009)

dnelsen said:


> So while I (sort of) get what you guys are saying about a proper release, which I obviously need to get better at, this thing is still simply too small.


Archery forums are an excellent way of getting information if you have the perquisite to sort it, otherwise, it can lead you way astray from what's way more important.

If you bought a large Bateman, I guarantee you that it is not too small. When you say you need to get better at the release, what that means is you and your coach need to work on you learning what muscles are used, how they are used, and basically, the long road to learning how to hook the string and how to get a clean, non pluck, release with proper backtension.

There is no tab, split, 3-under, or anything else going to improve anything until that happens. I'm not making any judgements here, just saying that your words exhibit a very common mistake new shooter under coach make. Again, taking their eye off the apple and worrying about worms - they take their eye off and ask little of things that really matter and make the world out of stuff that will go to nothing they really need at the moment.

I may sound like a harping pedant here, but really, this is stuff we all went through and to some extent still do. I've been there and done that too. The basics care nothing about all this stuff.


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## Demmer (Dec 1, 2012)

Easykeeper said:


> You don't need a face made specifically for three under with the AAE Cavalier Elite. If I want to shoot three under I just remove the finger spacer from my Elite Cordovan. I actually prefer the split tab for three under to tabs that are one solid piece of leather.


That's why I cut finger slots. I don't like the feel of a one solid piece either. 

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## emrah (Aug 28, 2012)

So I'm confused. With a tab that short is the string NOT ever supposed to hit your finger tips? I'm not flinging my fingers open at the shot. I'm trying to just relax them, but it still buzzes my fingertips.

Emrah 


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## Longbowfanatic (Mar 5, 2016)

Demmer said:


> Eric Yost just started making them. He put a lot of effort coming up with a good shape that fits in the had and doesn't press against anything. Fits my hand well, so that's what I use now. Long time widow fan. I forget Eric's screen name here.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk


I want one really badly! If I can figure out how to locate Eric, I will have a couple of these.


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## rsarns (Sep 23, 2008)

emrah said:


> So I'm confused. With a tab that short is the string NOT ever supposed to hit your finger tips? I'm not flinging my fingers open at the shot. I'm trying to just relax them, but it still buzzes my fingertips.
> 
> Emrah
> 
> ...


.......


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## Demmer (Dec 1, 2012)

Emrah, what Ren said. 

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## triumph (Dec 24, 2009)

Great discussion here still learning myself


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## emrah (Aug 28, 2012)

This is good to know. I can use it as a gauge for my release. I'll know if I'm doing it right.


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## Sanford (Jan 26, 2009)

emrah said:


> This is good to know. I can use it as a gauge for my release. I'll know if I'm doing it right.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


The muscles you are really trying to use and control, which are not in the relaxed fingers, are at the top of your forearm. To really feel them work, close/curl fingers into palm and push hard into palm without using your finger muscles. Relax fingers and use the top of forearm muscles to really feel them pop. Matter of fact, Tony, Viper1 here, had shown me that one can actually shoot that way, fingers pushed into palm, for an exaggerated action to drive home the idea of what you are trying to accomplish. Yes, you can learn to have your fingers out of the way even then and after you do it for a little while.


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## grantmac (May 31, 2007)

I prefer the AAE split face for shooting 3 under.


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## Easykeeper (Jan 2, 2003)

Sanford said:


> You really only need protection where the string contacts under hold. If you have a clean, relaxed, finger release, the string should never touch the end digits of your fingers - really, nothing past where it was rested during holding.





dnelsen said:


> I don't understand how that's possible. It seems to me that you would need to open your fingers faster than the string moves. Please explain.





emrah said:


> So I'm confused. With a tab that short is the string NOT ever supposed to hit your finger tips? I'm not flinging my fingers open at the shot. I'm trying to just relax them, but it still buzzes my fingertips.
> 
> Emrah
> 
> ...


I'm sure Viper or several others could explain it better than me, but you can't possibly force the fingers open fast enough. It takes a relaxation of the muscles holding the fingers and then the bow string will actually fling the fingers out of the way. I think it could be one of the less intuitive and harder things to learn.

Check out these videos of Park Sung Hyun, one of the best archers in the world. This is what a good release looks like, wish I could be so clean off the string.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NlZuFLlO-BE

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EN_X8JzMuYg


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## dnelsen (Dec 11, 2016)

emrah said:


> So I'm confused. With a tab that short is the string NOT ever supposed to hit your finger tips? I'm not flinging my fingers open at the shot. I'm trying to just relax them, but it still buzzes my fingertips.
> 
> Emrah
> 
> ...


THIS

So even if your fingers are completely relaxed, and you're "letting go" instead of "opening", I still don't understand how the string doesn't zip over your finger tips upon release... and how this doesn't begin to really hurt after a few arrows.

How the string could avoid touching your finger tips _altogether_ upon release (as some have mentioned) doesn't seem possible.

It was mentioned by another that the string "pushes your relaxed fingers out of the way", which makes a lot more sense... but how does this not hurt? Especially with stronger limbs?


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## reddogge (Jul 21, 2009)

There's a post on TT right now about the Yost tab and contact information.


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## Sanford (Jan 26, 2009)

dnelsen said:


> How the string could avoid touching your finger tips _altogether_ upon release (as some have mentioned) doesn't seem possible.
> 
> It was mentioned by another that the string "pushes your relaxed fingers out of the way", which makes a lot more sense... but how does this not hurt? Especially with stronger limbs?


Grab a pencil with one hand and the hook the string fingers of your other hand around it. Pull real hard with both hands in opposite direction. With little to no practice, you should be able to release the pencil with the string hand without it dragging your fingers. 

That should demonstrate to you that if a fixed rod won't drag, a deflecting string will do that with no problem. That will also tell you that if the string is easing down your fingers and dragging the tips, then you have some hold on that string for several inches of string travel. In other words, for several inches the string is creeping off the fingers instead of the fingers just getting out of the way completely.


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## Halfcawkt (Dec 27, 2015)

Sanford, I want to thank you for your amazing description of the release.

EK, thank you for that vid. It really drove the point home for me.

I tried to mimic what you guys were trying to teach us and the results were mind blowing. I had been allowing the string to "roll" off my relaxing fingers in a fashion akin to throwing a football. I had gotten really good at it being repeatable. Most fita style shooters I shoot around would comment on how well I shot while "holding all that poundage" and having no sight.

It will take me some time to master that skill, but I'm now very optimistic on my potential to improve. Thank you so much, guys!

I do a problem with this technique, however. It weakened my shafts up do to increased string speed. I can think of far worse problems to have...


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## Sanford (Jan 26, 2009)

Halfcawkt said:


> Sanford, I want to thank you for your amazing description of the release.
> 
> EK, thank you for that vid. It really drove the point home for me.
> 
> ...


Welcome! These are things a good coach will ingrain into a student with snap bands or shoelace tied in loop first lessons. Any distraction from mastering that task means you cannot go to the next step. 

Yes, one can get pretty decent at what I refer to folks as "massaging" the arrow into the bull. IOW, learning to time and control all the functions to make the arrow do what we need through repetitive actions. The rub is that by doing that, we are trying to control too many things with too much variance involved, so it's hard to get enough consistency with it.


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## emrah (Aug 28, 2012)

dnelsen said:


> THIS
> 
> So even if your fingers are completely relaxed, and you're "letting go" instead of "opening", I still don't understand how the string doesn't zip over your finger tips upon release... and how this doesn't begin to really hurt after a few arrows.
> 
> ...


Yes. This is my confusion as well. How can it possibly NOT hit your fingers?

Emrah 


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## triumph (Dec 24, 2009)

Sanford said:


> Grab a pencil with one hand and the hook the string fingers of your other hand around it. Pull real hard with both hands in opposite direction. With little to no practice, you should be able to release the pencil with the string hand without it dragging your fingers.
> 
> That should demonstrate to you that if a fixed rod won't drag, a deflecting string will do that with no problem. That will also tell you that if the string is easing down your fingers and dragging the tips, then you have some hold on that string for several inches of string travel. In other words, for several inches the string is creeping off the fingers instead of the fingers just getting out of the way completely.


This is the best description. Creeping off the fingers instead of the strings just getting out of the way. Recurve is new to me, and if I can keep this in my mind instead of releasing my fingers and plucking the string will achieve the perfect release. Thank you.


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## rsarns (Sep 23, 2008)

emrah said:


> Yes. This is my confusion as well. How can it possibly NOT hit your fingers?
> 
> Emrah
> 
> ...


Given I shoot at least 500 arrows a day I would have bloody stubs if it did.


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## centershot (Sep 13, 2002)

emrah said:


> So I'm confused. With a tab that short is the string NOT ever supposed to hit your finger tips? I'm not flinging my fingers open at the shot. I'm trying to just relax them, but it still buzzes my fingertips.
> 
> Emrah
> 
> ...


Same here. Could be doing something wrong but a tab that is 1/8" longer makes a world of difference for me.


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## dnelsen (Dec 11, 2016)

You guys were right, I was wrong, it is just long enough after all. I needed to wear it closer to the knuckle of the closest digit, and to change how I was initially hooking the string. 

Thanks for prompting me to give it another try, rather than going to a longer tab. It has caused me to improve my form.


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## Demmer (Dec 1, 2012)

Nelsen, thats what these forums are all about. 👍

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