# Need time question answered



## Diane Watson (Oct 12, 2002)

What specific round are you referring to?


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## AT_X_HUNTER (Aug 10, 2005)

rwells said:


> How long do you have to shoot a target? Also how many times can a person let down on a target?


I like your avatar. That's the model designed by Colt for politicians isn't it?

To your question. How long you have depends on the round you are shooting. A blue face 300 round give you 4 min to shoot 5 arrows. You can let down as many times as you want, within the 4 min time frame. A Vegas round gives you 2.5 min to shoot 3 arrows. Then there is FITA. I think you get 4 min to shoot 6 arrows at 90 and 70M (I think that's right). Indoors I think they give you 2 min to shoot 3 arrows.

Now if you are asking about 3-D I don't think the IBO has a time limit. I've heard the ASA does, but I haven't shot an ASA event to know for sure.

Hope that helps a bit.


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## CHPro (May 21, 2002)

Just to add a few additional details to X hunter's notes, NFAA field there is no time limit to shoot your 4 arrows (field/hunter rounds) and you cannot let down more than 3 times per arrow. If you let down the 4th time it is officially considered a "shot" arrow and will score a 0.

FITA field also has a time limit rule that invokes as soon as the shooting stake is considered "clear", but don't recall for sure what that time limit is (possibly 3min for 3 arrows), and you can let down as many times as you want without penalty...as long as the arrows are shot within the time allowed. Plus, if I recall correctly there is no point penalty for an intial infraction but rather you receive a red, warning mark on your scorecard. Subsequent infractions can then lose you points. Been awhile since I shot a FITA field so I don't recall all the intricasies for sure.

I don't shoot any of the big 3D events so can't help on that one, but I do believe there is a time limit, something like 2min for the first archers to the stake and then 1 min for the next archers in the group to approach. Thinking this was ASA and IBO, or possibly only IBO?

>>-------->


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## curs1 (Oct 24, 2002)

In ASA un known distance the first shooter has a 2 min time for his shot. Each following shooter has one minute. 

In the new known classes each shooter has one minute to complete his shot


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## rwells (Sep 21, 2007)

Thanks, you have answered everything I needed to know.


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## field14 (May 21, 2002)

AT_X_HUNTER said:


> I like your avatar. That's the model designed by Colt for politicians isn't it?
> 
> To your question. How long you have depends on the round you are shooting. A blue face 300 round give you 4 min to shoot 5 arrows. You can let down as many times as you want, within the 4 min time frame. A Vegas round gives you 2.5 min to shoot 3 arrows. Then there is FITA. I think you get 4 min to shoot 6 arrows at 90 and 70M (I think that's right). Indoors I think they give you 2 min to shoot 3 arrows.
> 
> ...


I believe the NFAA also has a 3-let-down rule in addition to the time limit. This applies to all NFAA certified rounds, indoors and outdoors. WHY they decided to have a let-down rule AND a time limit is beyond me. I figure that if a guy lets down 10 times...who cares? As long as he/she doesn't exceed the 4-minute time limit indoors and what USED TO BE...a 5 hour time limit outdoors...THEY are the ones pooping themselves out, not me. I figure they'll pay the price for all those let-downs later on in the round when they are so over-fatigued their form will go South on them, haha.

I think in 3-D, you can let down, but I don't think you can re-set your site after doing so and before you draw back the bow again??????

The last I knew, the IBO DOES HAVE a time limit. Last I knew, it was two minutes per shooter, and your two minutes starts whent he previous shooter in your group's arrow hits the brush or the target. ASA, I think, has a time limit of two minutes for the first shooter in the group, and one minute for each subsequent shooter in the group. Of course, enforcement is left up to the group members.....self-enforcement, if you will.

field14


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## AT_X_HUNTER (Aug 10, 2005)

Hey Field. I didn't think the NFAA had a let down rule??? I thought you had 4 min to do pretty much what ever you want. Lord knows we've seen plenty of people let down more than 3 time in a round, especially in a shoot off. But if there is a rule I don't think it gets envoked very often.


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## pragmatic_lee (Jan 19, 2008)

AT_X_HUNTER said:


> Hey Field. I didn't think the NFAA had a let down rule??? I thought you had 4 min to do pretty much what ever you want. Lord knows we've seen plenty of people let down more than 3 time in a round, especially in a shoot off. But if there is a rule I don't think it gets envoked very often.


Under the Tournaments section
H12
12. At all NFAA outdoor sanctioned tournaments, a (3) let down rule will be applied per *arrow*. A fourth let down will be counted as a shot arrow.


Note: this is per "arrow" NOT per "target"


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## field14 (May 21, 2002)

AT_X_HUNTER said:


> Hey Field. I didn't think the NFAA had a let down rule??? I thought you had 4 min to do pretty much what ever you want. Lord knows we've seen plenty of people let down more than 3 time in a round, especially in a shoot off. But if there is a rule I don't think it gets envoked very often.


Yes, "they" put in a let down rule too, in addition to the time limit, even for indoors! I only slightly understand it for "outdoors", but see absolutely no reason for it...put back the 5 hour time limit for field/hunter, and there wouldn't be a problem.

Probably some "old fart" got beat by a guy that refused to shoot a poor shot and let down a lot during the end/round, so the "old fart" got his way and the stupid let down rule was put into effect.

Personally, as long as the person gets their arrows into the target within the "time limit", indoors or outdoors, their muscles are the ones being fatigued out, and they'll not make it thru the round stongly anyways, giving the advantage back to those that set up their shots correctly more consistently, hahaha.

I see no reason to FORCE a person into a bad shot; other than the time limit that has been around for years; don't need BOTH a time limit and a 3 let-down rule. Talk about double-kill?

Of course, some organizations don't "really" enforce the time limit, expecting rather peers to enforce it; as if THAT is going to happen out on the course? hahahaha...fat chance.

Better to have a time limit for completion of the round outdoors, and ENFORCE IT....if you are over 5 hours to get your cards in, then too bad georgie boy.....

field14


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## AT_X_HUNTER (Aug 10, 2005)

I can see the rule on an outdoor course. Especially when it's windy. But like you, I don't see much use for it indoors. Actually I don't think too many people (officials included) know about it.


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## CHPro (May 21, 2002)

> Yes, "they" put in a let down rule too, in addition to the time limit, even for indoors!


Oh Tom, what are we going to do with you, lol ! Notice in Lee's quote of the let-down rule, it pertains only to sanctioned NFAA outdoor tournaments. I'm pretty sure it does not apply to indoor rounds because there already is a time limit in force. For indoors let down as much as you want per arrow, just need to have all arrows shot within the 4min time limit per end (blue/white 300 round).

I'm fairly certain outdoors has no time limit per end. Therefore the let-down rule is all that applies. I believe I was at the Outdoor Nationals that caused this rule to be written up and adopted. Allegedly there were a few in a couple groups that were letting down several times per arrow causing major delays and backups around the courses and some people weren't able to get off the ranges until 4-5p (after something like an 8a or 8:30a shotgun start). Apparently some who were in those groups weren't overly pleased with the amount of time it took to shoot their rounds with the multiple let-down archers, drafted a rule to limit the number of let-downs and voila, we now have the 3 let-down rule, in lieu of some sort of time limit per end which would be extremely difficult to enforce equitably for all groups in an outdoor field/hunter format.

At least that's my understanding of the rule(s) and how the let-down rule came to be.

I don't care for a 5hr rule either. Too many variables not in the archers' control that can cause rounds to take more than 5hr such as course layout, terrain, play of the groups in front of yours, weather, etc.. Seems to me one needs a little more leeway for an outdoor round than just setting a time limit to turn in scorecards. I don't particularly care for the let-down rule either. Like you, I don't think a person should be forced into making anything other than their best shot. But then again, any sort of time limit, be it per end or per outdoor round, can still result in a person being forced into taking a less than ideal shot. I wouldn't mind if the let-down rule was tossed out, as long as play doesn't start to overly lag, or a few individual's start pushing the envelope and hold up the entire works again like what caused the rule to be adopted in the first place. I've pushed the let-down to the 4th draw a couple times in the past -- windy day, need to draw up a couple times in sunny weather before getting the shading correct, etc.. If the let-down rule was removed and no time limits set, it would probably require range officials actually out on the range monitoring play with some sort of time limit being invoked if the officials felt a specific group or individual was responsible for holding up a tournament. I think golf has something akin to this don't they?

Food for thought anyway...........

>>------->


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## pragmatic_lee (Jan 19, 2008)

Speaking of "time limits", I'd like to take this opportunity to invite all who would like it to download the FREE timer I have listed in my signature. BTW: I have the OK from the MODs to list this even though I am not a sponsor since it is free. 

If you don't like it, there's an un-install routine. I know it's still quite a long time till indoor season again, but I'd really appreciate any and all feedback and ideas for improving it. It's been downloaded well over 200 times since I first wrote and made it available back in Jan. 

Thanks
Lee


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## field14 (May 21, 2002)

CHPro said:


> Oh Tom, what are we going to do with you, lol ! Notice in Lee's quote of the let-down rule, it pertains only to sanctioned NFAA outdoor tournaments. I'm pretty sure it does not apply to indoor rounds because there already is a time limit in force. For indoors let down as much as you want per arrow, just need to have all arrows shot within the 4min time limit per end (blue/white 300 round).
> 
> I'm fairly certain outdoors has no time limit per end. Therefore the let-down rule is all that applies. I believe I was at the Outdoor Nationals that caused this rule to be written up and adopted. Allegedly there were a few in a couple groups that were letting down several times per arrow causing major delays and backups around the courses and some people weren't able to get off the ranges until 4-5p (after something like an 8a or 8:30a shotgun start). Apparently some who were in those groups weren't overly pleased with the amount of time it took to shoot their rounds with the multiple let-down archers, drafted a rule to limit the number of let-downs and voila, we now have the 3 let-down rule, in lieu of some sort of time limit per end which would be extremely difficult to enforce equitably for all groups in an outdoor field/hunter format.
> 
> ...


Jeff, I see where you are coming from. 
However, at the 1989 Nationals, "they" enforced that 5-hour time limit at Watkins Glen and it worked just fine and dandy. Of course that was long before the advent of clinometer, palm pilot, and techno-toys being onto the courses. I was in a group where we had a "stan-style shooter" that let down TWICE for EVERY arrow and shot EVERY arrow on the third try...part of his "routine." We still easily made the 5-hour time limit, however. This guy shot tremondous...for about the first 12 targets or so; then he started sliding and tiring dramatically...If I recall, he shot a 278 the first 14 targets...and a 252 or 254 the second 14....because he was totally exhausted.

Later that fall, the NYFAB also ENFORCED the 5- hour time limit, again, at Watkins Glen...and the first day, we had rainy conditions and some fog....they simply delayed the start until the fog cleared, but sent us out in the rain...to shoot...the Presidential course. Sunday, we shot the West Virginia....and again, the 5-hour time limit was ENFORCED. It was announced ahead of time, and all of us easily made that time limit...even under the less than ideal conditions.

People that are holding up the show??? Well, they won't for long...IF and ONLY IF...they know that the TIME LIMIT for the entire round will be enforced.

Most field courses are not out in the open wind...but even then.....IF the time limit is announced and everyone knows it will be enforced...then EVERYONE is under the same conditions, and people will comply...or they will be DQ'd; plain and simple. Just takes a tournament chair with cajunas and the organization to put back in the time limit and stick to their guns. People will learn to deal with it.

I've seen the "let down rule" ENFORCED on INDOOR rounds, so as far as I know that rule applies indoors as well as outdoors; I sure think it is nonsense, however to have BOTH, when a simple time limit for each end indoors, or for the round outdoors is fine and worked very well in the past...Until "some people" started pushing those limits and got away with it and lengthened it out even more.

Like I said, even with that person I shot with at the Nationals drawing back three times per arrow; our group EASILY made the 5- hour time limit...and we had to walk back up the hill from the Connecticut range to do it, and still had our cards in ahead of the 5-hours.

Of course, I also realize that getting the 5-hour time limit rule put back for field and hunter rounds would be like peeing into a fan...so we deal with the "no time limit", but "let down per arrow rule", and continue to allow people that don't let down often to lolligag by other means, be it techno-toys, ogling their 4th hour while standing on the stake; to shooting ONE at a time on a walkup, etc.; etc.
Wouldn't surprise me a bit to see some 7 or 8 hour field rounds come into play real soon. Let's see... 15 mph times 8 hours...Heck I could get in 120 miles on my bicycle and not be bothered by bugs, buggies, rule books, etc.....hmmmmm....

And, Nobody will miss me, nor me "it", if and when it comes to going much over 5 hours for a 28 target field round. Ain't worth the haggle and hassle to be out there that long, IMHO, especially when I know the high scores were accomplished in tons of LESS TIME...often times in 4 hours or slightly over that in the past.

field14


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## CHPro (May 21, 2002)

> I've seen the "let down rule" ENFORCED on INDOOR rounds, so as far as I know that rule applies indoors as well as outdoors


Sounds like another case of someone erroneously applying a rule and the competitors not knowing any better so they couldn't call the person enforcing the non-existent rule. I'm pretty certain if you look through the Constitution and By-Laws that the only reference to a 3 let-down rule is specifically housed in a section labeled outdoor shooting rules...per Prag's reference earlier. I couldn't find anything pertaining to a let-down rule in any of the general or indoor round rules.

Just an fyi, some of the field/hunter rounds I've shot that took more than 5hr were shot prior to the abundant use of all the "toys". A couple Nationals held in Darrington in the mid- to early-90's come to mind, several targets laid out having to shoot directly into the sun resulting in people needing to shade for their peers, several let-downs, etc., just to see the targets and shoot their arrows and a few shooting lanes that were a little on the narrow side, etc. I've shot Redding for the last several years both before and after the increase in the use of the "toys". I haven't found that round for example to go that much slower one way or another, but could be because most of the archers I shot with using the "toys" also knew how to use them and could just about read the angle and calc the cuts, set their sights in just a little more time than it took those without to look over the terrain and then guesstimate their own cut. Its the ones who just purchase the "toys" and do not spend enough time on their own practicing with them and basically are still learning how to use while at major tournaments that can be a bit of a pain to shoot with or follow around a course.....fortunately it seems I haven't run across very many of these types .

>>------->


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## field14 (May 21, 2002)

CHPro said:


> Sounds like another case of someone erroneously applying a rule and the competitors not knowing any better so they couldn't call the person enforcing the non-existent rule. I'm pretty certain if you look through the Constitution and By-Laws that the only reference to a 3 let-down rule is specifically housed in a section labeled outdoor shooting rules...per Prag's reference earlier. I couldn't find anything pertaining to a let-down rule in any of the general or indoor round rules.
> 
> Just an fyi, some of the field/hunter rounds I've shot that took more than 5hr were shot prior to the abundant use of all the "toys". A couple Nationals held in Darrington in the mid- to early-90's come to mind, several targets laid out having to shoot directly into the sun resulting in people needing to shade for their peers, several let-downs, etc., just to see the targets and shoot their arrows and a few shooting lanes that were a little on the narrow side, etc. I've shot Redding for the last several years both before and after the increase in the use of the "toys". I haven't found that round for example to go that much slower one way or another, but could be because most of the archers I shot with using the "toys" also knew how to use them and could just about read the angle and calc the cuts, set their sights in just a little more time than it took those without to look over the terrain and then guesstimate their own cut. Its the ones who just purchase the "toys" and do not spend enough time on their own practicing with them and basically are still learning how to use while at major tournaments that can be a bit of a pain to shoot with or follow around a course.....fortunately it seems I haven't run across very many of these types .
> 
> >>------->


I know what you mean about the ones using the toys KNOWING HOW and WHEN to use them. MOST of the top echelon shooters I've spoken with only use the toys to: 1. VERIFY their "gut" feeling, and/or 2. When STUMPED and uncertain. Almost every one of them said that nearly all the time, their "gut feeling" was right in the first place, and also that they don't get "stumped" very darned often either.

Of course proactive PRACTICE and experience will outdo the "toys" nearly every single time just from the standpoint of that knowledge of a person's abilities and tendencies. Doesn't to a bit of good to nail the "cut" and then, because you haven't a clue how you handle toes up or toes down, or an uphill/downhill with one foot well above or below the other...and you then shoot it into the "4" or "3" ring anyways....know what I mean?

Many shooters today seem to think they can "buy" upper echelon scores with the techno-toys, and then hold up the show because they don't have the other important aspects of consistent shooting mastered or even close to it.

Strange how I know of three people that contributed the "cut charts" for the Darrington ranges....and NEVER USED THE CLINOMETER to provide those cuts...they did it from EXPERIENCE and KNOW HOW.

Like you said, Jeff, knowing how and when to use them is PRICELESS...and you ain't for learning 5 minutes after buying one.

I still strongly feel that there is NO REASON to venture well beyond 5 hours into the 6, 7, or potential 8 hours for 112 shots. That is just becoming pokey and slow on purpose. I know I'd much rather take the 4 to 5 hours on the range...especially in the HEAT or Humidity...and knowing myself well enough that the longer I'm out there, the WORSE things are going to get as far as dehydration, fatigue, etc....but not everyone realizes that or gives that aspect of TIME any due consideration. They think that by SLOWING DOWN, they improve their odds...and that isn't necessarily the case at all.

I'd betcha that MOST of 'em never ever take 2 1/2 to 3 hours to shoot a 14 target unit when practicing......

field14


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## blueglide1 (Jun 29, 2006)

Jeff,they should follow me on a course.Even with my antquated euipment I still beat all the fancy crap as far as setting my stuff and shooting.You know what I use! LOL


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## field14 (May 21, 2002)

blueglide1 said:


> Jeff,they should follow me on a course.Even with my antquated euipment I still beat all the fancy crap as far as setting my stuff and shooting.You know what I use! LOL


Not strange as it may seem, but the TIME out on the courses has been "yarding" (not inching) up the past few years...but the SCORES have NOT been going up. Sure a "FEW" more perfects out there....but...nobody has yet to do it in NATIONAL competition on a FIELD ROUND.

I just don't see the sense behing just letting the time creep upwards more and more and not trying to do something about it. TOTAL ROUND TIME LIMITS worked in the past...we still shoot 112 arrows over 28 targets...and when the TIME LIMITS were ENFORCED....people simply complied.

To me, "rushing around the range" is NOT a "rush" if it is at or under 5 hours for 28 targets. Good grief, the yardages are MARKED...we are allowed rangefinders; what the heck is the hang-up? The ranges are NOT any tougher now than they used to be.

People just don't seem to think that taking LONGER isn't the key to shooting better....A person doesn't PRACTICE at home by taking LONGER to shoot the course...so why would anyone want to change their rhythm that they've practiced for so long?

Greater than 5 hours to me is absolutely ridiculous, and Darrington cannot be any worse than some of the courses I've shot in Wyoming, Colorado, and other places nation-wide.

You sound like me....I have a set of binoculars, my quiver, my "site mark placard", my arrows, and my bow/release. Don't NEED all the 'techno-toys'; but then, I've been at it for many, many years, as has Jeff. We can pretty much make a "read" on any target and get it there without all the fancy Dan stuff that just, IMHO adds to the cornfusion, and weight carrying capacity of the old man.

field14


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## blueglide1 (Jun 29, 2006)

That is correct 14,I cant see why it takes so long.Like you say,you set the range,load the arrow,attach the release,draw and execute the shot.This pulling out the range finder and checking the bale,why? The D+)^& range is all ready marked! Slide your block to the setting and shoot for cryin out loud.If you need to rest ten min. in between the walks to the target,do cardio at home.It aint rocket science.


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## field14 (May 21, 2002)

blueglide1 said:


> That is correct 14,I cant see why it takes so long.Like you say,you set the range,load the arrow,attach the release,draw and execute the shot.This pulling out the range finder and checking the bale,why? The D+)^& range is all ready marked! Slide your block to the setting and shoot for cryin out loud.If you need to rest ten min. in between the walks to the target,do cardio at home.It aint rocket science.


You gotta remember, today's "Newbies" or "wannabees" want things YESTERDAY and GIVEN TO THEM. They aren't willing to put in the time and effort to get the job done. They figure that since the "computer age" has made everything else "easier"....that it should do that with shooting a bow too. Oh, boy, but do thay have a LOT to learn!!!

Like I posted earlier, MOST of the better field shooters don't NEED the techno-toys...and only use them when stumped or to verify what they are "reading" into the target with their experience and practice. I have a slant range compensating range-finder...and I quit using it...because my "reads" on the target were always in agreement with what the rangefinder was telling me anyways. Didn't NEED it, so why carry it? MAYBE I would use it on a very hilly, unfamiliar range, but I sorta doubt it. IF a person wants to spend the money, I guess that is OK. Mine will sit in the drawer and I'll use it only for practicing 3-D yardage estimation, but not on any field courses around here, since they are mostly flat or require little to no "cuts".

I sure can't see, if everything is so much "easier" WHY it has to be an INCREASE in the amount of time out on the course to shoot the SAME scores that were being shot some 25 years ago.....doesn't make any sense to me at all.

Yet...back then the complaining was rampant about 4 to5 hours being WAY too long...and now, all of a sudden, LESS than 5 hours is "rushing through the course." Talk about hypocrisy.

field14


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## CHPro (May 21, 2002)

Assume 3 min/archer to shoot 4 arrows (seems reasonable given we get 4min to shoot 5 indoors), 4 archers/group shooting 2 at a time, 5 min for the group to walk up to the target, score, pull arrows and walk to the next target before starting the process all over again. Puts the total amount of time for the 4-some per target at 11min. At 11min per target, 28 targets, my math puts the total time for the round at 308min, or pretty much right at 5hr. I think the 5min estimate is even a little on the conservative side, probably takes a little longer. So, how do you propose shortening the rounds to < 5hr without making a person feel they are being rushed around the range? Only options I can see are requiring lanes be widened so at least 3 or 4 can shoot at the same time or sending archers out in groups of 2 , either of which would shorten the round to approximately 224min, or just under 4hr.

Based on my experiences shooting field rounds over the last several years, the numbers above seem pretty reasonable and I haven't really seen any change in the amount of time being taken even with the techno toys becoming more prevalent. Basically takes no more time to hit the target with a laser than it does for me to pull the binos and read the arrow holes before giving the sight a few extra clicks one way or another. I may be a little quicker in my cut decision than the person who whips out the inclinometer and Palm, but even if it takes that person 1 extra min to do their calculations you're only adding 28min to the total round time, and I would contend not all targets require a cut, so the added time for a full 28 is still probably no more than 10-15 min even with those more cumbersome toys.

I guess what I'm saying is that even with all the new toys I haven't seen that much of an increase in the amount of time it takes to shoot a full 28 field round. Still the biggest delays I see are due to poor course layouts and not being able to have the entire group shoot concurrently. Just an fyi, pretty much all of the longest days I've ever spent on a field range during competition was due to archers who had to let down multiple times per arrow or those who were used to the "good ol' days" and felt it obligatory to take a 30-45min lunch break between 1/2's, not due to techno-toy use. In fact, the let down rule came about due to the extremely slow play of a few groups well before the techno-toys had even been invented .

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## field14 (May 21, 2002)

Jeff, up until the mid-1990's is was a piece of cake to complete a 28 target round in slightly over 4 hours and never approach 5 hours. But things changed, and people started dilly-dallying around the courses, etc instead of shooting.
When I first started in the 60's, we never shot less than 2 abreast on any target. Now, I have to admit, I've been in groups that will use any excuse to shoot ONE at a time, claiming that the person on such and such a stake has an advantage so to remove it, everyone should shoot the same stake. THAT probably comes from 3-D where every one shoots the same stake. This of course is on the targets from the 35 on out....MOST of the time, since each person has their own target when up closer, most groups shoot 2 and 2.
Heck Jeff, I've even seen groups shooting one at a time....left to right or right to left...on the 35 fan. At the beginning, three stakes are empty, then two, etc...as the first person moves thru them. Talk about dilly-dallying and wasting time!
Then there is the infamous....even if shooting two at a time...the two shooting the entire target on a walk up while the other two spot...and then the next two shooting the full target. This really backs things up, and it has become more common.
Then of course shooting two at a time on a BUNNY when it is staked out for all four to shoot at once...a thing that really slows things up.

And the talking and jabbering during scoring and taking time pulling arrows, checking arrows, etc....

And, finally, like you say, so accurately...those "thinking" that they absolutely MUST have a 30 to 60 minute "break" after completing a 14 target unit...or wherever the "pit stop" is. That same issue bugs heck out of me on indoor leagues too. WHY do people think they need a "break" after 30 arrows indoors during league? Maybe it comes from 3-d too, since they get a 20 minute break after each ARROW they shoot...

Go figure, but I'm still at issue with going over this 5-hour barrier. Didn't HAVE to do it before, but now it seems that MORE than 5 hours is something like an "accepted standard" and less than that is "Rushing"?

Trouble is, you see over 5 hours at local-yockel shoots too. And WHY does a person NEED 3 minutes per arrow? or even TWO minutes per arrow? That is ludicrous.

We'll have to agree to disagree that 5-hours is or isn't excessive. I strongly feel the 5-hour MAX time limit has worked before when ENFORCED, and it surely will work now..>WHEN ENFORCED. As long as we continue to allow the shooters an uncontrolled time frame...we are going to have people pushing it longer and longer and longer.

Of course, when I started...we were on the range at 9AM and off the ranges by 3-3:30PM, after having shot 56 targets and not 28. That is 224 arrows in a day, TWO full 28 target rounds in a day. But of course, we were shooting recurves and were on the OLD scoring system/target, too. That is 6 hours or so for 56 targets, INCLUDING a SHORT break after 28 targets, not after each 14 target unit. We didn't feel "rushed" then, and felt we were shooting slow, not quickly.

field14


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## FS560 (May 22, 2002)

I fail to understand why there are people who consistently want to force everyone to race around the range. This game was supposed to be fun.

It seems like some want to be finished before they should have even arrived in the first place.

Five hours is a fast pace for four shooters shooting two at a time. Next, someone will likely propose a rule to not allow talking and socializing during a tournament.

However, I have been blamed for holding up tournaments that I was not even at.


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## blueglide1 (Jun 29, 2006)

That was you?LOL I really dont want to race but it would be nice to go to the next target and not sit there for ten minutes.I guess Im too anal that way.Dont want to offend anybody,take your time by all means.I just feel its a courtesy to not hold anyone up.No biggie I guess.


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## field14 (May 21, 2002)

FS560 said:


> I fail to understand why there are people who consistently want to force everyone to race around the range. This game was supposed to be fun.
> 
> It seems like some want to be finished before they should have even arrived in the first place.
> 
> ...


Jim,
I know for a fact that you are well aware that one of the major reasons people left field shooting, besides the difficulty of the new round was indeed TOO LONG TO SHOOT THE ROUND...as in just over FOUR hours was TOO LONG for them, so they went to 3-D so they could shoot faster!

Now, all of a sudden you are saying that FIVE hours is a "rush job" around the range? FIVE hours was considered excessively LONG for many, many years; but now, out of the blue it is a "rush job?" Such hypocrisy!

Of course, some 3-D rounds for FORTY shots take 6 to seven hours' course time...so field at even 5 1/2 hours for 112 shots is a bargain....hahahaha.

It just bugs the devil out of me that people changed their tune and now are basically hypcites about this FIVE or more hours being a rush job...when before FOUR to FIVE hours was WAY TOO LONG to shoot a round with four people per group.

I can recall two major shoots I attended right after the target change...where the range was double butted...as in EIGHT shooters per target...and we got done with all 28 targets...in UNDER 5 hours...it was OK then...but not NOW? How is this, when so much is considered EASIER now than it was back then?

In addition "THEY" (whomever they is, ahha) sure were in a RUSH to SHORTEN UP the time limit at Vegas from 3 minutes to 2 1/2 mintues per end several years ago, weren't "they"...as in make the shooter RUSH thru that round....hmmmmmm....and talk I've heard, but no action as of yet...to RUSH IT MORE...and down to two minutes for the 3 arrow ends???? Talk about hypocrisy.

field14


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## FS560 (May 22, 2002)

field14 said:


> Jim,
> I know for a fact that you are well aware that one of the major reasons people left field shooting, besides the difficulty of the new round was indeed TOO LONG TO SHOOT THE ROUND...as in just over FOUR hours was TOO LONG for them, so they went to 3-D so they could shoot faster!



No Tom, I am not well aware of that at all. I believe that it was the other way around. In the early days of 3D, people became accustomed to shooting two or three different 3D tournaments in the same day by racing from one club to another, that field archery failed to deliver the desired expectation of instant gratification.

I further feel that it is the pot calling the kettle black for people to expect field archery to speed up when compared to the length of time it takes 3D shooters to shoot one arrow each, one shooter at a time.


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## FS560 (May 22, 2002)

blueglide1 said:


> That was you?LOL I really dont want to race but it would be nice to go to the next target and not sit there for ten minutes.I guess Im too anal that way.Dont want to offend anybody,take your time by all means.I just feel its a courtesy to not hold anyone up.No biggie I guess.



No, it was not me. I was not at that shoot.


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## blueglide1 (Jun 29, 2006)

touche, my friend.LOL


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## field14 (May 21, 2002)

FS560 said:


> No Tom, I am not well aware of that at all. I believe that it was the other way around. In the early days of 3D, people became accustomed to shooting two or three different 3D tournaments in the same day by racing from one club to another, that field archery failed to deliver the desired expectation of instant gratification.
> 
> I further feel that it is the pot calling the kettle black for people to expect field archery to speed up when compared to the length of time it takes 3D shooters to shoot one arrow each, one shooter at a time.


I cannot believe how many times, when I was shooting IBO type events in PA, NY, and OH....that present 3-D shooters that were formerly FIELD shooters complained that NFAA field rounds took WAY too much time, and that 4 hours or more for 112 shots was way too long; so they left field and went 3-D! Time and time and time again I heard that crap from them. But you are indeed correct about the pot calling the kettle black concerninig TIME...those very same people didn't mind on Sunday...taking 3 to 4 hours to shoot TEN shots...they used the excuse, "well, there are a lot of people, and besides, I'm here to enjoy the comaraderie too." Yeah right...hypocrites they are!

Bad thing is that we are seeing the "changeover" in my FIELD shoots to.....you got it...ONE shooter at a time, in spite of most ranges being at least set up for two at a time, and many good courses for four at a time...RARELY do you see 4 at a time, excepting MAYBE on the fan targets...but I"m seeing more and more of ONE at a time...probably a rub off from 3-D...thinking that one stake is better than the others or something.

As soon as you go ONE at a time, or start the garbage of two shooters shooting the entire walkup first, then coming back to let the other two shoot it, you get backups and play slows down drastically. But....whaddaya going to do about it without any sort of TIME LIMIT to complete the round. 

The way it stands right now....They could start at 9:AM and run until dark....and the NFAA couldn't do squat about it. Correct me if I'm wrong on that...?????

One thing is coming out of the huge slow-down in 3-D...many 3-D shooters are "discovering" field shooting and commenting that while it takes a long time...they get to shoot LOTS of arrows, and there aren't any excuses....other than themselves...to blame for bad scores or misses. It'll take awhile to break 'em of the "one shooter at a time" mentality....perhaps.

field14


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