# Solving the IBO hunter class "problem"



## Acesarcher (Jun 1, 2007)

well as many of you have already saw 31 up won the hunter class at the indoor worlds, hardly a beginners score. even without money this class increases every year. So here is my solution IBO Have a hunter class for money and a hunter class for fun and if you finish in the top 25 at any point in the fun class you must move up.

now some of you will say they already did this! but they didnt they made it a longer yardage, for whatever reason the IBO thinks that you must have longer yardage to shot for money, hunter class is popular because people like the close yardage so let them have it and just give them an option, i bet you would see allot of people in the money hunter class and also lots of beginner scores in the other class. just my .02 cents


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## jwolfe78 (Mar 10, 2006)

Acesarcher said:


> well as many of you have already saw 31 up won the hunter class at the indoor worlds, hardly a beginners score. even without money this class increases every year. So here is my solution IBO Have a hunter class for money and a hunter class for fun and if you finish in the top 25 at any point in the fun class you must move up.
> 
> now some of you will say they already did this! but they didnt they made it a longer yardage, for whatever reason the IBO thinks that you must have longer yardage to shot for money, hunter class is popular because people like the close yardage so let them have it and just give them an option, i bet you would see allot of people in the money hunter class and also lots of beginner scores in the other class. just my .02 cents


So...... what would you do about people wanting to win the national triple crown in HC??? Would the top 25 shooters, be eliminated after each leg?? You won't see a 31 up in the outdoor national triple crown.


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## Sniper1 (Jun 27, 2007)

They got 6 pins now, and about 28 clases, for God's Sake! I wish they would cut back on both. You can't do anything about sandbaggers, or people who step down to win, instead of stepping up to compete where they should in the first place.
Besides, some people suck, and if they want to shoot those events, they need to accept they are mediocre, and always will be. 
If you want to win every time, go compete at the Special Olympics, where *"Everybody is a Winner"!*


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## Sniper1 (Jun 27, 2007)

Gotta bust your balls a bit there, Ace. We're holding our first IBO event this year, and the Classes and Ranges , as well as who gets what if we were to give it, is boggling already. The last thing they need is another Class, at a Different Range, with Different Criteria. They already tried to make everybody happy by adding shooting stakes and classes. You can't satisfy everybody. just ask Obama.

I hope you take it in the spirit it is intended.


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## mocheese (Dec 19, 2003)

If you make everyone that finishes in the top 25 move up at every event, eventually there will be no one in the class. However, I do agree that something needs to be done about the IBO Hunter Class.


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## Sniper1 (Jun 27, 2007)

4 pins, and a max range of 35 yards, and that's a "Problem" because some people think that the criteria should be lower, so they can feel good about themselves.

The problem isn't with the "Class". It's a competition, not a "Ego Boost". I assure you, the guys who win aren't "Lucky". They are doing something right, and doing it consistently.

Personally, I think it should be pushed to 40 yards, or farther.


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## mag41vance (Mar 13, 2008)

Sniper1 said:


> 4 pins, and a max range of 35 yards, and that's a "Problem" because some people think that the criteria should be lower, so they can feel good about themselves.
> 
> The problem isn't with the "Class". It's a competition, not a "Ego Boost". I assure you, the guys who win aren't "Lucky". They are doing something right, and doing it consistently.
> 
> Personally, I think it should be pushed to 40 yards, or farther.


 It is the "Self Esteem" Issue Blowing up society. Our Public schools have been teaching our kids we're all winners. Everyone gets a trophey. No more dodge ball. Makes me ill. Loosing means you need to work harder.
If our only goal is winning, then learning to deal with loosing is very important.


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## bow-legged (Nov 26, 2002)

I think the guys that shoot over in mbo should move up. 
I think the guys that shoot over in mbr should move up. 
I think the guys that shoot over in ahc should move up. 
I think the guys that shoot over in hc should to move up.


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## RNT (Feb 28, 2007)

Sniper1 said:


> 4 pins, and a max range of 35 yards, and that's a "Problem" because some people think that the criteria should be lower, so they can feel good about themselves.
> 
> The problem isn't with the "Class". It's a competition, not a "Ego Boost". I assure you, the guys who win aren't "Lucky". They are doing something right, and doing it consistently.
> 
> Personally, I think it should be pushed to 40 yards, or farther.


I agree. Personally last year was my first year in 3d and I shot HC. Towards the end of the season I was finishing in the top 3 consistantly. This year I was planning on starting out in HC but after shooting indoors alot this year and all that is offered is MBR for everyone I am thinking about going straight into MBR because of the challenge and potentially more distance. A lot of times in HC I feel like I am almost standing on top of the targets.

People need to move up and challenge themselves not move down to win.........I agree.


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## Ohio_3Der (Jul 19, 2002)

"4 pins, and a max range of 35 yards, and that's a "Problem" because some people think that the criteria should be lower, so they can feel good about themselves."

I hope that there aren't too many people wanting to make it easier, the AVERAGE score for this weekend in HC is a smoking 403.44! HC is turning into one of the hardest classes out there to win. These guys aren't messing around! The shear number of shooters that appear to have just shot one eight or no eight's at all is just staggering. 90 shooters out of 135 shot even (400) or better. That's 70% of the class that shot up or even. 

"well as many of you have already saw 31 up won the hunter class at the indoor worlds, hardly a beginners score"

You'll need to edit that statement, a 431 TIED for second, a 432 won.


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## Sniper1 (Jun 27, 2007)

Bow and arrows are getting very fast, very quickly, and the designs are helping eliminate those pesky "Poor Form" issues.

Let's move everything back 10 yards, and drop a
shooting stake or two.

Maybe drop a couple of the Classes that have the fewest shooters. Those guys are often in them because they have little or no competition anyway.


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## bow-legged (Nov 26, 2002)

I shot a 421x23 and placed 25th. I love it. Talk about a competition.


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## 3dbowtechman (Jun 22, 2008)

There is a big difference between an Ibo triple crown and Ibo indoor worlds.THere is only a 30 yard max indoors and most of the targets were only 20 to23 yards.Nothing against the people who shot 30 up because you still have to make the shot and execute.They shot the same targets as everyone else.The real problem lies within the distance the targets are placed at.Just my opinion.


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## PAFD ARCHER (Jan 31, 2008)

*Ibo hunter class*

By any means the guy that shot a 432 is i great shot. Me and my fience went out and shot friday. It was the first time for the both of us at the indoor worlds. They put on a very organized shoot. There will never be a fix for those that shoot 32 up they are truly gifted and put in alot of work . I shot 9 up with 20 x's and was very pleased, my fience shot 4 up with 16 x's. Top score in the fhc the last 2 years was 2 up. She was so excited to have shot that good but dont u know 23 up won her class. We are both very serious into 3d so we are both moving up. Look at the winners this year and check to see if they dropped down from last year. 2inch vane rule changed alot of peoples ideas on what class to shot in this year. My 2 cents


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## RICHFORESTCo (May 25, 2005)

*Ibo*



Sniper1 said:


> They got 6 pins now, and about 28 clases, for God's Sake! I wish they would cut back on both. You can't do anything about sandbaggers, or people who step down to win, instead of stepping up to compete where they should in the first place.
> Besides, some people suck, and if they want to shoot those events, they need to accept they are mediocre, and always will be.
> If you want to win every time, go compete at the Special Olympics, where *"Everybody is a Winner"!*




Umm ,Acearcher won the AHC Class at the indoor worlds this past weekend so I dont think you will see him headed for the special olympics anytime soon


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## 3D Pinwheeler (Jan 29, 2007)

My Opinion is everybody pays the same entry fee, you know what class your signing up for, Shut up and shoot. There's only 1 winner in each class. Maybe Levi Morgan and Dan McCarthy should move up, give the other pro's a chance


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## <COPE> (Jan 19, 2009)

Jon Shea said:


> My Opinion is everybody pays the same entry fee, you know what class your signing up for, Shut up and shoot. There's only 1 winner in each class. Maybe Levi Morgan and Dan McCarthy should move up, give the other pro's a chance


I Agree


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## Sniper1 (Jun 27, 2007)

RICHFORESTCo said:


> Umm ,Acearcher won the AHC Class at the indoor worlds this past weekend so I dont think you will see him headed for the special olympics anytime soon


I don't know what his concern is. He can walk the walk. 

Personally, I think everybody who shoots Hunter Class should walk back ten yards, and we'll see what the scores are then. I doubt everybody will be shooting Up then, and the Cream will rise.


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## x-finder (Apr 1, 2006)

I think that they should have a pro class,target sight class,and a pin shooters class. The 20 different classes is rediculous. Heck,in the hunter class you damn near have to shoot all 11's to win. What fun is that?


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## BOCH (Mar 8, 2008)

It does'nt matter how many rules ,classes or stakes they have someone will gripe. Back when The IBO was 1st started all mens classes were shot from the same stake,max.60 yrds,people whined an cried thats to far, you were scored for the class you signed up in. So they added more stakes an add classes,same old thing it's like a circle it has no end.


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## fgpatton-ky (May 13, 2005)

I shot hunter class for about a year or 2...i had shot 30 up...25 up.. and so forth, the reason i never moved up ( moved up now)is cause i was new..it was a confidence builder..to win..alot of moving up has to do with equipment change... longer stab...u can use more pins...more MONEY... i think sticking to hunting bows..not target bows, color and such, u know shooting hunter class with conquest 4 or an apex, if you can afford that type of gear u can afford to move up..cause at this point in your shooting.. you know whats good and whats not, some hc shooters are just good shooters when they first begin shooting..natural i guess you could say, they really dont understand about other classes they think the competition is so fierce their scared to move up, i felt i couldnt make it in a higher class but i did very well, i shot MBR which is more challenging..cause alot of previous hc shooters go here and stay here and most are a great shot.
i also understand about the lower score shooters i guess if rules dont change they need to step up their game, its called competition for a reason!!!


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## Sniper1 (Jun 27, 2007)

BOCH said:


> It does'nt matter how many rules ,classes or stakes they have someone will gripe. Back when The IBO was 1st started all mens classes were shot from the same stake,max.60 yrds,people whined an cried thats to far, you were scored for the class you signed up in. So they added more stakes an add classes,same old thing it's like a circle it has no end.


Amen Brother. It's giving me Drain Bamage trying to set up and classify a IBO Shoot at our Club. I hope it's worth it, and I don't want to hear any crap for following the specific criteria.


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## Sith of Archery (Nov 5, 2008)

:crybaby2::crybaby2::crybaby2::crybaby2::crybaby2::crybaby2::crybaby2::crybaby2::crybaby2::crybaby2::crybaby2:


get the point


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## ranger-ray-300 (Aug 3, 2008)

I too remember when IBO started up, all men shot same stake it was just a matter what equipment you had on your bow. I shot MBR then with five pins and a bow that shot 245. I went to the worlds 2 out of 3 years, top five the 3rd yr. I gave it up because I got tried of all the complaining going on that it was to far, and the open class took to long. this day and age with bow shooting 300+ fps with long brace heights. If you want to win your class focus,practice, and learn to judge yardage. you too can shoot 32 up and win. Or move to a class you can build your confidence, or move up and shoot a tougher class, then you won't have to shoot 32 up, but if you do you better shoot better. cause if you can't go 32 up in the hunter class it won't easier farther away.. my 2 cents



BOCH said:


> It does'nt matter how many rules ,classes or stakes they have someone will gripe. Back when The IBO was 1st started all mens classes were shot from the same stake,max.60 yrds,people whined an cried thats to far, you were scored for the class you signed up in. So they added more stakes an add classes,same old thing it's like a circle it has no end.


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## Acesarcher (Jun 1, 2007)

Sniper1 said:


> I don't know what his concern is. He can walk the walk.
> 
> Personally, I think everybody who shoots Hunter Class should walk back ten yards, and we'll see what the scores are then. I doubt everybody will be shooting Up then, and the Cream will rise.




My concern is that 2 good friends of mine came to the Indoor worlds this year with the us and these guys are bowhunters, but are itching to compete they felt they shot well but ended up towards the bottom ( as you could imagine, i believe they both shot in the 80's) I shot the hunter class for a few years between shooting YMR15-17 with the likes of Mcarthy and Levi and then shooting MBR for a few years. I think I will shoot MBO at all of the triple crown this year.

There are great guys who want to compete in a 35 yard class let them have it, but there should also be a 35 yard class for the novice. The IBO is great! i love what they do for bowhunting and they give me a place to fling arrows and meet some great people, but they could take a lesson from the ASA on there classes.


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## 3D Pinwheeler (Jan 29, 2007)

The IBO World has a trophy shoot for guys that didn't qualify for World's Scores are generally a little lower. Newbies shooting at a major event is pretty tough I'd bet your friends would do alot better at local shoots where it all starts.


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## ky hammer (Jan 7, 2003)

IMO the hunter class is only behind the pro class when it comes to difficulty in winning one of the major ibo shoots. it has turned into a spot shoot where you cant miss. the competiton in this class is unbelievable as it was shown at the indoor world shoot. you have a couple of types of shooters in this class. the one type is the one that strives to do the best and win the shoot and then the second is just the average joe that comes out to shoot his bow on sunday. the hunter class is the bread and butter of all of our shoots. i think we dont need any more classes and stakes and since the hunter class is and equipment class then i think it should stay as it is. i remember when i first started out shooting ibo back in the late 80's we had one pin class and we shot out to 60 yards and that was the biggest class there was then.


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## Acesarcher (Jun 1, 2007)

Jon Shea said:


> The IBO World has a trophy shoot for guys that didn't qualify for World's Scores are generally a little lower. Newbies shooting at a major event is pretty tough I'd bet your friends would do alot better at local shoots where it all starts.



I really wish the IBO would offer the trophy shoot at all of the locations not just the worlds!


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## Acesarcher (Jun 1, 2007)

ky hammer said:


> IMO the hunter class is only behind the pro class when it comes to difficulty in winning one of the major ibo shoots. it has turned into a spot shoot where you cant miss. the competiton in this class is unbelievable as it was shown at the indoor world shoot. you have a couple of types of shooters in this class. the one type is the one that strives to do the best and win the shoot and then the second is just the average joe that comes out to shoot his bow on sunday. the hunter class is the bread and butter of all of our shoots. i think we dont need any more classes and stakes and since the hunter class is and equipment class then i think it should stay as it is. i remember when i first started out shooting ibo back in the late 80's we had one pin class and we shot out to 60 yards and that was the biggest class there was then.


man that class would rock!!!! BRING IT BACK!!!:darkbeer:


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## Sniper1 (Jun 27, 2007)

Acesarcher said:


> My concern is that 2 good friends of mine came to the Indoor worlds this year with the us and these guys are bowhunters, but are itching to compete they felt they shot well but ended up towards the bottom ( as you could imagine, i believe they both shot in the 80's) I shot the hunter class for a few years between shooting YMR15-17 with the likes of Mcarthy and Levi and then shooting MBR for a few years. I think I will shoot MBO at all of the triple crown this year.
> 
> There are great guys who want to compete in a 35 yard class let them have it, but there should also be a 35 yard class for the novice. The IBO is great! i love what they do for bowhunting and they give me a place to fling arrows and meet some great people, but they could take a lesson from the ASA on there classes.


I'm sorry you feel your Novice friends should have gotten something more than the experience of shooting at a IBO Indoor World's Competition. 
But they are "Bowhunters', and not experienced in competitive archery until now. I hope they learn from the experience, and become enthusiastic and continue.

If you feel so strongly that your friends, who shot near the bottom, should get something, give them one of your trophies, or your purse. I'm sure they will appreciate it very much. 
Maybe someday, with practice, and luck, they can actually earn a place at the top, by actual performance, and not litigation.

And maybe, Jamaica will win a Olympic Gold Medal in Bobsled. Maybe. If they practice real hard, and not just show up.


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## Sniper1 (Jun 27, 2007)

Acesarcher said:


> I really wish the IBO would offer the trophy shoot at all of the locations not just the worlds!


Or, they could hand a couple out to everybody that comes, or even just asks for one and doesn't bother to shoot. 

Maybe, Obama can arrange for it with Stimulus money.


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## BOWGOD (Aug 11, 2004)

your going to have sandbaggers no matter where or what you shoot. Some guys just can't deal with loosing. If you made a money hunter class, and a fun class there would still be guys sand bagging shooting the fun class just so they can pat themselves on the back for crushing everyone in the class. Look at the ASA bow novice and open c classes. ASA makes you move up if you win yet every pro am someone shoot 30 or 40 up in each of these classes. you know it's not the same people because once you win you have to move to a higher class. It's just the next generation of sand baggers coming in behind them. 
Don't matter where you shoot, what game you shoot there is always going to be sandbagging in the so called novice classes. Makes me sick but it happens. The only org. that has that somewhat figured out is USBA where your equipment only determines what stake you shoot from, your skill level determines what class you are in. Only problem is USBA has never expanded beyond OH,IN areal so it is very localized.


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## spot&dot (Nov 4, 2003)

OK I'm confused. First off let me say I know nothing about the hunter classes. To me this should be a class for a beginner but as long as the shooters are shooting the equipment within the rules then they are the winners. I feel they should move up to mbr but I feel that way about alot of mbo and spm shooters as well. 

Now for ACE. You thread isn't making much sense with me. When you first posted I seen where you finished in HC and it made total sense. You were distraght with being beat by 'sandbaggers'. Now I see it's been changed and you are first in AHC. So are you now calling yourself a sandbagger? I'm assumming AHC shoots the long stakes at Cleveland??? If you shot shot the long stakes and ended with a 416 then I think it's a little hipocritical don't you think. That score would have taken money in SPM.


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## Acesarcher (Jun 1, 2007)

spot&dot said:


> OK I'm confused. First off let me say I know nothing about the hunter classes. To me this should be a class for a beginner but as long as the shooters are shooting the equipment within the rules then they are the winners. I feel they should move up to mbr but I feel that way about alot of mbo and spm shooters as well.
> 
> Now for ACE. You thread isn't making much sense with me. When you first posted I seen where you finished in HC and it made total sense. You were distraght with being beat by 'sandbaggers'. Now I see it's been changed and you are first in AHC. So are you now calling yourself a sandbagger? I'm assumming AHC shoots the long stakes at Cleveland??? If you shot shot the long stakes and ended with a 416 then I think it's a little hipocritical don't you think. That score would have taken money in SPM.


YEA im really mad because I got beat by sandbaggers, i have been shooting the ibo since i was 14. and for your info my good friend shot a 418 in semi pro and he is more than likely getting 0 dollars. Before you accuse and make yourself sound like an ass get your ****ing storys straight. This is why i dont get on archerytalk any more. There are a few good guys out there but sad to say most of the guys that frequent this site are the guys with there patches all over there shirts of the "staff's" that they are on trying to buy themselves points instead of getting up off the damn computer and going out and practicing. Im sure i will get banned after this post but it wont be the first time.


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## <COPE> (Jan 19, 2009)

not to get off subject... but congratulations acesarcher on the win in cleveland....i also shot AHC and thought that i had a chance to win it with a 412 but i can live with being the first loser i guess


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## spot&dot (Nov 4, 2003)

Well since I tried pm's and didn't get an answer I'll ask it here.

Were you the guy that had a sight break on the practice range?

Did you shoot the short targets?

Depending on the answers I have a few other questions that I'd be curious to ask. Just trying to clear up some rumors going around since I know Cleveland is a cheats paradise every year. I could care less who does what in hunter class.


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## hoffmank (Feb 25, 2007)

Ok Ace hold the door. I have set back and watched you talk long enough about this topic and how well you did in Cleveland. You say you shot the long side in Cleveland. but now your attacking others so I am going to now attack you. You story has changed twice now on another post about who you shot with in cleveland. When I asked you what stake you shot in Cleveland you said the one the rest on the AHC people in my group shot. Then later on you said you shot with a HC Semi and AHC. I looked up your scores and you have never shot a score even close to what you did this weekend. The scores show that the long range was was a tough one because people with better equipment didn't shoot that high up. When you shoot the the 2nd highest score outside the Pro and Semi class with pins at distances of 42+ targets several times and THE BIAZARRE HELP!!!!! YOU PUT ME IN THE WRONG CLASS I SHOT THE SHORT RANGE BUT THAT SCORE WILL LOOK GOOD IN AHC story it just seems little strange. I am glad you know how to fix the sandbaggers problem. Hey mabe you can recommend someone to stop CHEATERS.


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## <COPE> (Jan 19, 2009)

if he shot the short targets then i am getting screwed


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## hoffmank (Feb 25, 2007)

I don't know if he did or didn't I just know things don't add up to me with the stories he has posted on this AT. If he did good for him I shot AHC didn't shoot great but ok. But He'll have to prove it to me before I am convinced of that.


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## <COPE> (Jan 19, 2009)

yeah if he shot the right targets good for him that is a great score..but that sort of sucks for me if he shot the wrong course


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## Sniper1 (Jun 27, 2007)

You guys need to settle this with a Knife Fight.

Those are the rules now, new for 2009. Two men enter, one man leaves.


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## goingpro24 (Dec 16, 2007)

Acesarcher said:


> well as many of you have already saw 31 up won the hunter class at the indoor worlds, hardly a beginners score. even without money this class increases every year. So here is my solution IBO Have a hunter class for money and a hunter class for fun and if you finish in the top 25 at any point in the fun class you must move up.
> 
> now some of you will say they already did this! but they didnt they made it a longer yardage, for whatever reason the IBO thinks that you must have longer yardage to shot for money, hunter class is popular because people like the close yardage so let them have it and just give them an option, i bet you would see allot of people in the money hunter class and also lots of beginner scores in the other class. just my .02 cents


your idea really sounds like a good solution. I may be wrong but I think a lot of the shooters in the bh class dont advance to the open classes may be because of the cost of the equipment it takes to become competitive in the higher classes. I know years ago when i made the jump it cost me a lot of money all at once, almost broke me and caused a divorce! LOL just joking... about the divorce anyway.


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## YRhinefield (Feb 22, 2006)

I sure do get tired of hearing and reading all the whining by guys getting beat and calling the winners and top finishers sandbaggers. No where in the IBO rules does it state HC is a beginners class as Ace seems to think. 

Both IBO and ASA have rules that clearly state the requirement for a shooter to move up in class after a certain monitary amount is won or X amount of wins in National events is achieved.

Apparently some people do not comprehend that many shooters who attend National level 3D events are there to win. After all it is a COMPETITION not a fun shoot. Seems like those who don't have the ability, experience or the time to dedicate whine the most. 

If you want to "have fun" need a trophy, plaque or medal shoot local club or state shoots. If you want to compete against the best attend National events.

If you can't run with the big dogs stay on the porch.


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## Glock17 (Dec 23, 2004)

I cant get over how cranked up guys get about this stuff, no one is "entitiled" to a win at any tournament. As long as guys are playing by the stated rules and the scoring is on the level then let the chips fall where they may. 

The fact is if you want to beat the guys dominating your class, then get better, it may take a while but it can be done.


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## flintcreek6412 (Jun 27, 2006)

The only problem I see with the way it is, is that it doesn't promote a future and continued participation of events for the average shooters. I don't think that most expect to win, but at least a little hope of having a chance will help. Most will spend the money to compete a few times and then they will soon learn that they don't have a chance and stop spending the money on shoots. I can shoot 3 practice courses for the same $$ of 1 competitive shoot....and it's the exact same course and I get the exact same result, a fun day of shooting. After a while they will figure out the economics of it.

Let's be honest here, the top HC shooters aren't sandbagging, they have just put in the hours to perfect their game. Nothing wrong with that. I know that I have no intest in putting in the committment they have to get where they are. And likely, most other poeple don't either. 

So what do we do? Create ability based flights? That would be great...but how? They have handicaps in golf/bowling/darts etc....but how do you do it with 3d. It's not like spots where every joe is shooting the same target from 20yrds. No variables there so that would be easy to figure an average score. Even golf is fairly standardized to a point. But 3d courses...Wow. I can shoot 250/300 on one, 275/300 on another and 401/400 on a third. My ability is the same, the courses are just set differently. They are all so subjective based upon terrain, target placements and weather. For a local league, you could probably do it if everyone is shooting the same courses...but no way for a large national or regional event. There is just way too much variation in courses for scores to really mean much.

At some point, there will be a saturation of archers that have tried it and moved on to their own kind of archery leaving only the top shooters to play. Not sure how that promotes a future of the sport.

In other words....I don't have a clue how to fix it....but it is a shame that average archers can't compete with similar abilities to keep the sport growing. When I have a solution to this problem....I will then focus on fixing our economy:darkbeer:


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## bow-legged (Nov 26, 2002)

I dont know how you fix it so a beginer can go to a World Championship or a National shoot and win. 

I will tell you what they can do at local shoots. Move to a farther stake because thats where the real sandbaggers go.


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## hoytman44 (Mar 9, 2008)

lets face it, if you want to win then shoot at local events. If you can't win there then the IBO is not the place to start winning. If your going to compare 3D archery to golf then the IBO should be compaired to the PGA. and the PGA does not handicap players. You are competing with the Best of the best at what ever class your shooting. If its not broke don't fix it. just my 2cents.


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## Bubba Dean (Jun 2, 2005)

First off we are all big boys and we should know in what class we belong. I think there is a need for a Hunter or Novice Class. The folks who shoot it should be just that someone just starting out shooting(novice) or someone who's only focus is hunting. I think that these classes should shoot shorter yardage that more resembles the distances in a hunting situation. I also feel that IBO should pay more attention to the guys shooting this class and not be afraid to boot guys out that don't belong(shootin 30 up for 40 targets means you don't belong). Get the class where just the guys who need to be there are there and the problem is solved.

The Advanced Hunter class is another question. Since there is class already that shoots the same equipment(except it allows a longer stabilizer) in existence the AHC should be eliminated and the participants made to shoot in MBR. I don't see why some of the AHC guys are reluctant to shoot MBR the only difference is the longer stabilizer and 5 yards.


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## jcs-bowhunter (Jul 7, 2007)

goingpro24 said:


> your idea really sounds like a good solution. I may be wrong but I think a lot of the shooters in the bh class dont advance to the open classes may be because of the cost of the equipment it takes to become competitive in the higher classes. I know years ago when i made the jump it cost me a lot of money all at once, almost broke me and caused a divorce! LOL just joking... about the divorce anyway.


+1

I shoot HF (Hunter Finger Class) because I only have one bow and will not spend the $$$ on a seperate 3D rig for a more advanced class. I shoot my hunting bow and arrows. The HF class has few participants so I can't rant about not placing well because a large percentage of the shooters are out shooting me. I've got many years of shooting behind me but have no interest in shooting the next level up due competing against long stabilizer and scope setups. I think many of HC folks feel the same way. 

My only knock against the HC class is that they allow BT releases. 

My 2 cents worth...


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## HOOKER MAN (Jun 26, 2007)

*ASA shoots*

You may want to consider the ASA organization. It is open to all shooters that want to shoot and enjoy the sport. The ASA rules are fair for all. In your class, you shoot with shooters that have the same ability as you do. The better you shoot the better shooters you shoot with. They have rules that keep all shooters on the same level. The speed issue is also covered. There is a determined speed for all. It keeps the long draw shooters at a tighter criteria. We all know that a 30 inch draw with a 70lb. bow and a 350 grain arrow will shoot flatter than a 26 inch draw with a 70lb. bow and a 350 grain arrow. This keeps the playing field some what equal. You may want to try a ASA SHOOT!!! You may like it.


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## flintcreek6412 (Jun 27, 2006)

Bubba Dean said:


> I don't see why some of the AHC guys are reluctant to shoot MBR the only difference is the longer stabilizer and 5 yards.



Right or wrong, bowhunters often place a stigma on long stabilizers. I'll be honest, when I dabbled with spot shooting for fun I thought it looked easy. Until I tried it. Then I thought, well it must be that long stab they use.....so secretly I bought one and only used it at home to avoid the ridicule from my hunting buddies. Like it or not, a lot of guys want to be preceived as a hunter, not target archer....and a long stab makes you a target archer in their eyes. It's just simple psychology. FYI, the long stab didn't help my scores for squat....I still sucked. Fat arrows didn't help either :darkbeer:

Back on Topic: Another option to maybe consider, yet it would not be easy on egos is to break the HC into competition/champion classes. Definitely use it for both indoor/outdoor worlds and maybe find a way to incorperate into other big shoots. Basically anyone is welcome to attend and participate. But you must qualify for the champion class. And to qualify you must do so as you do for the worlds, at a local shoot, but instead of taking the top 20, you take the top 10%. 

Lets face it, I qaulified for the worlds in AHC by default because only 16 shot that class in a qaulifier. This way, only 1 or 2 could go from that class. It would basically send the best of each regional qualifiers and then it would put them on a more even field.

Then you have the competition class open to all. This will be that feel good, I want a trophy class. Throw them all together to shoot the same course. After all totals are in you break it down by % of participants(rounding down). Thus you will have an overall winner of "A" class. This is the best score for all of them. You will then go down 25% of the scores and deem that guy winner of the "B" class, 50%"C" class 75%"D" class and sorry, there is no "E" class. Give them a cheap $4 trophy and they are happy. 

There, it's solved....so let get it done


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## lakeinX2 (May 22, 2008)

I think it has to do with the region the people are at I have shot with some other shooters from other states and they did not shoot good at all and maybe they were the best in their area! I shoot the hunter class, I shoot for the simple reason of shooting a bow, I own a small owner operated company and don't have the time to adjust to long stakes. I shot very well last year at the national triple crown for a PLAQUE not money so there is no simple fix. I won a plaque and a buckle from the NTC. This year I will still shoot the hunter class! And the pay out SUCKS for the AHC and so on, so fix that to make it more apealing to move up! I don't want to go into debt spending money to move up if the pay out don't cover the the money invested! And the ones that always say "that would have killed it" should step up their abilities not the ones that do!


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## Bowjoe1972 (Oct 29, 2008)

Sniper1 said:


> 4 pins, and a max range of 35 yards, and that's a "Problem" because some people think that the criteria should be lower, so they can feel good about themselves.
> 
> The problem isn't with the "Class". It's a competition, not a "Ego Boost". I assure you, the guys who win aren't "Lucky". They are doing something right, and doing it consistently.
> 
> Personally, I think it should be pushed to 40 yards, or farther.


Amen..


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## BOWGOD (Aug 11, 2004)

flintcreek6412 said:


> Let's be honest here, the top HC shooters aren't sandbagging, they have just put in the hours to perfect their game. Nothing wrong with that. I know that I have no intest in putting in the committment they have to get where they are. And likely, most other poeple don't either.
> 
> :




I have to disagree with that statement. I know for a fact that in some cases you are dead wrong.
I personally know guys who do/have done it. These are guys who shoot open class year round (and quite well I might add) at all local shoots. But when it comes time for a national shoot they put on pins and shorty stabilizers and go for the win. They are not HC shooters anywhere other than national level shoots.

If that don't make you sick this one will. I know many of the same people who have went to the ibo worlds and shot world trophy in HC after dominating all the local shoots all summer in open class. Just to come home and tell everyone they won world championshipsukey:. To the average joe coming in and out of the shop it seems like a real acomplishment they have a trophy and everything. 

Fact is there are alot of people out there who are afraid to take a whoopin so they pick on the smaller guys that they know they can beat.


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## Sniper1 (Jun 27, 2007)

BOWGOD said:


> Fact is there are alot of people out there who are afraid to take a whoopin so they pick on the smaller guys that they know they can beat.


Sounds like you are one of the guys who is afraid to take a whoopin. You are whining like a Palestinian. Why don't you sue the winners in The Hague?

They shoot Open all year because they are challenging themselves. They are competent and capable shooters. 

The Classes are equipment based, age based, and sex based. The winners of those Classes is decided by skill and performance.

Maybe if the whiners dressed in Drag, they could take home a plaque, if they can beat the girls. I know a few women shooters that would make that difficult too.

Seems like the big complaint here is that the winners won, and some guys feel entitled. I got a answer for that. The complainers should stay at the local shoots, or in their own back yards, until they man up and accept that somebody has to be at the bottom, as well as at the top.


Then again, maybe IBO could add a half dozen more Classes, and a couple more shooting pins?


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## fstgstdsmpay (Mar 20, 2006)

Sniper1 said:


> Seems like the big complaint here is that the winners won, and some guys feel entitled. I got a answer for that. The complainers should stay at the local shoots, or in their own back yards, until they man up and accept that somebody has to be at the bottom, as well as at the top.


Wow your going about this the completly wrong way. The whole point is we need shooters in the sport not just to stay in there back yards. Thats not going to help anyone.

On the same note I really cant believe im going to say this but I have to agree with sniper1. Classes are equipment based and the best shooter with that equipment is going to win the class. It may be morally wrong that these better shooters shoot in the novel class but at the same time there not breaking any rules.

Hell Tim shot a 422 in MBO, thats a smashing good score hes no sandbagger just a naturally good shooter.

Here it is this was an indoor, short, basically marked yardage (nnot really a whole lot of guessing there) course. The real shooters will come out in Bedford then we will see who rises to the top and see how many 25+ up shooters will be out there then.


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## archerm3 (Jan 4, 2007)

Sniper1 said:


> Gotta bust your balls a bit there, Ace. We're holding our first IBO event this year, and the Classes and Ranges , as well as who gets what if we were to give it, is boggling already. The last thing they need is another Class, at a Different Range, with Different Criteria. They already tried to make everybody happy by adding shooting stakes and classes. You can't satisfy everybody. just ask Obama.
> 
> I hope you take it in the spirit it is intended.





Sniper1 said:


> Or, they could hand a couple out to everybody that comes, or even just asks for one and doesn't bother to shoot.
> 
> Maybe, Obama can arrange for it with Stimulus money.


Curious what on earth does Obama have anything to do with 3D shooting in a 3D section. Got a political complaint? Take it up in the PRM section.


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## Sniper1 (Jun 27, 2007)

fstgstdsmpay said:


> On the same note I really cant believe im going to say this but I have to agree with sniper1.


You chose wisely. The small % of those who complain without justification wouldn't be missed. Local shoots and the IBO and ASA will survive without them, and the winners of events won't have to read threads like these that come up routinely after shoots, about how the winners are just....too good.


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## C.Callison (Jun 20, 2006)

Iam the world champion in my backyard. I practice at the long stakes but I compete at the short stakes. If you come to my backyard world championship and beat me. I accuse you of cheating and ask you to leave. That way I can always be the world champ in my backyard.
But the IBO dosent have shoots in my backyard, so I dont expect to win when its not in my yard.
Maybe if I start going to my neighboors yard and beating him then I can expect to do better at the IBO shoots.

The moral of this story you cant hold it against someone if they are putting the time and work in to do what it takes to win. As long as they are playing with in the rules. If you work from morning to night 6 days a week you cant expect to be able to practice 4 hrs a day. But you cant blame the guy that can practice 4 hrs or more a day because he has the time to. All you can do is put yourself in the class that gives you the best chance to do well, according to how much time you have to put in it.


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## BOWGOD (Aug 11, 2004)

Sniper1 said:


> Sounds like you are one of the guys who is afraid to take a whoopin. You are whining like a Palestinian. Why don't you sue the winners in The Hague?
> 
> They shoot Open all year because they are challenging themselves. They are competent and capable shooters.
> 
> ...




you got me pegged all wrong buddy. I specialize in taking a whoopin. I shoot to challenge myself. I have never shot a national event in hunter class. My first national shoot I moved straight into mbr. after 3 years in mbr I moved up to open because I felt I had reached a high enough skill level.
I have never won a national event nor am I ashamed of that fact. I shot my first open class national shoot with the same set up I used in mbr. I could care less win or loose that is not why I shoot. 
But I do see where the sandbagger frustration comes into play. I am not saying all the good scores shot are sandbaggers, but I am saying I do know some people who sandbag, and are proud of it. I do not think it's fair to the true hunters class guys to have to shoot against great open class shooters. That would be like mccarthy or hammer showing up and shoot mbo. I'm sure more than a few feathers would get ruffled about that.

Heck I don't even know why I am having this fight. I don't even shoot much 3d anymore, and absoloutely NO IBO shoots. I think sandbagging is the least of the disfunctional problems with in the IBO.


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## hdrat (Mar 7, 2009)

when this class was introduced to i.b.o. it was meant to bring the everyday hunter to nationals and see what 3-d is all about. not bring guys down from higher classes or guys with colored bows that shoot 340 f.p.s. and chromed stabilizers or fat shaft arrows. how many set ups do you see in the woods like this. if you can get a fixed broadhead to fly with fat boys or c/x lindjammers the same as field points, then you maybe you should be in this class. i.m.o. i would like to see i.b.o. add or change some rules as like a speed limit or move a shooter up for more than a year before moving back down. how about camo bow,and equipment,nothing larger than a .280 shaft and maybe a 300 f.p.s.. this class has gotten out of hand for the reason i.b.o. introduced it years ago. this is why i shoot m.b.o.


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## bow-legged (Nov 26, 2002)

The bowhunters I know shoot the deer in the real kill zone and are happy. They also dont start shooting 3-d until a month before hunting starts. I think nationals or world championship is the wrong place to show them what 3-d is all about. Let them do that at local shoots and if a club wants to have a beginer class let them regulate it.


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## jre4192 (Apr 25, 2005)

I really dont see what all the crying is about. I also dont consider shooting open class locally then shooting hunter class at the big shoots to be sandbagging. I and most others around here consider the local shoots to be nothing more than practice for the big shoots. If you practice shooting at longer distances at home when you get to the big shoots the HC shots seem easy. Isnt that what you want?


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## YRhinefield (Feb 22, 2006)

I do have an issue with shooters shooting the open class with open class equipment at local events, especially if it's a qualifier then dropping to HC at the National or World championship events. 

If the pin shooters want more of a challenge at local events they can shoot from the open stakes. Swapping classes to gain an advantage is sandbagging in my opinion. I've even seen pro's do it at National indoor events. They shoot open Pro at 3D events then shoot BHFS at dots.

I guess when money and fame is involved some will do whatever it takes to gain an advantage :sad:


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## mag41vance (Mar 13, 2008)

Acesarcher said:


> well as many of you have already saw 31 up won the hunter class at the indoor worlds, hardly a beginners score. even without money this class increases every year. So here is my solution IBO Have a hunter class for money and a hunter class for fun and if you finish in the top 25 at any point in the fun class you must move up.
> 
> now some of you will say they already did this! but they didnt they made it a longer yardage, for whatever reason the IBO thinks that you must have longer yardage to shot for money, hunter class is popular because people like the close yardage so let them have it and just give them an option, i bet you would see allot of people in the money hunter class and also lots of beginner scores in the other class. just my .02 cents




In basketball they don't lower the rim so the short players can dunk. Some short players work their tail off to be able to jump higher and then dunk the ball.
Work is a four letter word but so is good. Work to become good. If the guys winning by 20 bother you either beat them up or beat them by your effort shooting. I like shooting with shooters that are good and accomplished. It makes clear to me if my goals are attainable, based on my effort. Some people are just better than others. Nothing wrong with that.


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## jre4192 (Apr 25, 2005)

mag41vance said:


> In basketball they don't lower the rim so the short players can dunk. Some short players work their tail off to be able to jump higher and then dunk the ball.
> Work is a four letter word but so is good. Work to become good. If the guys winning by 20 bother you either beat them up or beat them by your effort shooting. I like shooting with shooters that are good and accomplished. It makes clear to me if my goals are attainable, based on my effort. Some people are just better than others. Nothing wrong with that.


excellent post. Why cant more people figure it out?


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## bow-legged (Nov 26, 2002)

I will tell you why they cant figure it out. It all started when they shot hunter class and couldnt hang. So they went to mbo or mbr to hide. Come back down to yellow and see if you got what it takes to shoot with the best shooters in the IBO.


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## Ohio_3Der (Jul 19, 2002)

There isn't a problem with the competition level being high. 30 up isn't a problem, until you look at what the IBO designated the Hunter Class. From the *IBO rule book*, the HC is part of the: *Level Three—Entry Level Adult Classes*

I just don't think 75% elevens is anywhere close to being "entry level." 

That's just an opinion. It doesn't bother me at all since I don't shoot in that class. I also don't really see a reason to change anything since the HC is by far and away the biggest class at my club. So people aren't scared off by the huge scores, evidently. As long as the HC keeps getting the numbers, there isn't a reason to change yet.


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## cenochs (May 2, 2007)

*Love this Idea !!!! IBO GET IT DONE*



flintcreek6412 said:


> Right or wrong, bowhunters often place a stigma on long stabilizers. I'll be honest, when I dabbled with spot shooting for fun I thought it looked easy. Until I tried it. Then I thought, well it must be that long stab they use.....so secretly I bought one and only used it at home to avoid the ridicule from my hunting buddies. Like it or not, a lot of guys want to be preceived as a hunter, not target archer....and a long stab makes you a target archer in their eyes. It's just simple psychology. FYI, the long stab didn't help my scores for squat....I still sucked. Fat arrows didn't help either :darkbeer:
> 
> Back on Topic: Another option to maybe consider, yet it would not be easy on egos is to break the HC into competition/champion classes. Definitely use it for both indoor/outdoor worlds and maybe find a way to incorperate into other big shoots. Basically anyone is welcome to attend and participate. But you must qualify for the champion class. And to qualify you must do so as you do for the worlds, at a local shoot, but instead of taking the top 20, you take the top 10%
> 
> ...


Best Idea I have ever heard,,,,,,,,,,,


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## Harperman (Sep 3, 2006)

Interesting thread...What I cant figure out is what does the color of the Bow have to do with ANYTHING??..L.O.L...It's the same bow, regardless of what color it is..L.O.L..Maybe it's becuase a Target color bow, in Hunter class, means that the Archer shooting it isnt a real Bowhunter?..Maybe He's one of them "Sandbaggers"??...Cheating His way into a win in the Hunter class, with a dreaded "TARGET" bow!!!??..L.O.L...Equipment restrictions are the same, regardless of the color of the bow, or anything attached to it...And, some folks do hunt with fat arrows, and some folks do hunt with light arrows...I think that the WORST thing that any Archery Org. can do is jack around with the Hunter class type folks...."Hunter" class Archers are the biggest % at most local shoots....So, they pay most of the bills for the Local Clubs...And without local Clubs, 3-D archery, and alot of other forms of Archery, will die off...Also, I want to add that eliminating the smaller classes, like Finger shooters, isnt right...I shoot Fingers, and at pretty much all the local shoots, I get put into the Hunter class....I dont have a snowball's chance at winning, or even placing in the upper end of the scores...So what??...I shoot 3-D becuase I enjoy it, and if I get the chance to shoot at a bigger I.B.O./ASA event, then I will have other shooters to compete with in My class there..Thats good enough for Me...Oh, yeah, I wanted to add that I shoot a "Target Colored" bow, because I like pretty, shiney bows...And a news flash for some folks, everybody that shoots 3-D, doesnt Bowhunt....I'm one of them guys...I shoot a bow because I like shooting a bow, and I feel that Bowhunting is a waste of my time...I'd rather be somewhere shooting my bow during bow season....And admiring the "Pretty" of my target colored sandbagger bow!...L.O.L...Take Care.....Harperman


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## bow-legged (Nov 26, 2002)

Im going to come out of the closet. Im a hunter class sanbagger that hunts with a crossbow.


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## Harperman (Sep 3, 2006)

bow-legged said:


> Im going to come out of the closet. Im a hunter class sanbagger that hunts with a crossbow.


....Bowlegged....You should be hung with a rope made of 452X, You Sanbagger!!....L.O.L...just messin' with You...L.O.L....I have a buddy that shoots 3-D with a recurve, but hunts with a Compound...We will hang him with the same rope!...L.O.L....Harperman


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## bow-legged (Nov 26, 2002)

I would prefer 8125 more strech. lol


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## jre4192 (Apr 25, 2005)

bow-legged said:


> Im going to come out of the closet. Im a hunter class sanbagger that hunts with a crossbow.


So what are you saying, you dont just shoot 3d to practice for hunting? Maybe you should try the IBO's crossbow class at the triple crown. Can you win a buckle if you are the only one in the class?


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## Ohio_3Der (Jul 19, 2002)

*he he he*



jre4192 said:


> So what are you saying, you dont just shoot 3d to practice for hunting? Maybe you should try the IBO's crossbow class at the triple crown. Can you win a buckle if you are the only one in the class?


Not if you shoot like Bow-Legged! :darkbeer:


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## CutTheLoop (Dec 26, 2007)

jre4192 said:


> excellent post. Why cant more people figure it out?


2 words.

Tee ball


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## bow-legged (Nov 26, 2002)

Hey my first 3-d shoot was with a crossbow at CCFSA. I shot a 230 I would shoot the worlds with a crossbow if they had a yellow sandbaggers stake. Talk about awkward walk into the club house with a crossbow and people were looking at me like I was an alien.


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## BIGT (Feb 10, 2005)

This type of crap is why I quit shooting 3D's and started shooting Spots and FITA. No guessing yardage. No pencil pushing. Step up to the line and let the best man/woman win. The sandbagging and cheating at the local level really bugs me, but it is even more disappointing to hear this crap happening at the big 3D shoots too. I love to compete. I really feel for you guys traveling and putting forth all of the effort it takes to try and compete at this level with all of this stuff going on.


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## hdrat (Mar 7, 2009)

it's like ohio 3der said. this is a level 3 entry adult class. your average 3-d shooter probably would'nt shoot 25 or 30 up. I can't see where anybody would get any satifaction from themselves always shooting the high scores time after time and never moving up. I not against the shooter who does this a year but why dominate it over and over and over and over. you get the point. I a shooter is that good, then he should'nt have any problems in next higher class. as far as HARPER MANS comment ,I did'nt say that fat shafts and 340 f.p.s. bows and colored bow AREN'T used in the woods, but you are more likely to see just the opposite by a large margin, and I don't know of any man that would call his bow PRETTY.


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## jcs-bowhunter (Jul 7, 2007)

hdrat said:


> and I don't know of any man that would call his bow PRETTY.


my bow is pretty...

It's finished a lovely green, tan and brown floral pattern (Realtree APG)

:darkbeer:


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## KID INGY (Dec 21, 2008)

the hunter class was suppose to beore beginers not for sharp shooters


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## LeesburgGamecoc (May 25, 2004)

KID INGY said:


> the hunter class was suppose to beore beginers not for sharp shooters


Then they should call it "beginner", and not "hunter". The truth is, that classifications are based on equipment restrictions, not skill. If they want to get rid of the problem, then standardize all of the compound classes to hunter class equipment. People don't move up because then they have to shoot the bow they hunt with against people with the 4 foot stabs etc.. It is the only sport in which you gain an equipment ADVANTAGE as you move up. Fix that through standardization to HC equipment rules, and away will go the sandbaggers in the non-money classes......


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## Sniper1 (Jun 27, 2007)

KID INGY said:


> the hunter class was suppose to beore beginers not for sharp shooters


Were you at the IBO Meetings where Classes were decided? I doubt it.


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## psestaffshooter (Feb 9, 2009)

*Acearcher shot the short targets.....*

I also shot the AHC in cleveland.  I was very shocked to see that the IBO had us shooting 25 of our targets at ranges from 42-45 yards seeing how I have been shooting and sighted for the 40-41 yards MAX that is prescribed in the RULEBOOK. And I was put with HC shooters twice...YES TWICE by the staff running the shoot. Then the IBO was so stiff on the line and light rule....well on our second set of targets...They left the damn redlight on when they called FIRE on the line....***.....I ran back to the desk to tell the official...he then told me that was not his problem and I should direct my concern to the Tower man.....Great...I was there to shoot....not organize the IBO shoot. And as far as the whole cheating thing...There were several groups of shooters that shot together....and they were known to each other as friends....had great scores after the fact...Cheating is an unfortunate event in any case...but when I go home...win or lose ..I know my score reflects how I shot that day. I am very dissapointed in the IBO for Changing the rules as we go ......I didnt have a 42-45 yard pin....I compensated and did ok....but that was a little out there in my book. And you know...it is up to the archer when he is placed in the wrong group of shooters to be HONEST for himself and his fellow archers...so if anyone did cheat....I am just curious...HOW DO YOU SLEEP AT NIGHT AFTER DOING SO ?
If you cheat..you are only cheating yourself and you are only your own hero at that point. I will probably not re-up my membership in the IBO again after this mess we witnessed ourselves. We were present for all three days...and witnessed alot of poor things. Some we have captured on video....like the grown men who were so worried about their own scores that they gave my friends son..who is an awesome young archer...A ZERO ON an 11 because it passed through. They even saw that it did...but cared not. I am ashamed of the archers that hide among the rest of us in disguise as archers and sportsmen,,when they are just the leaches sucking the life out of our sport.










hoffmank said:


> Ok Ace hold the door. I have set back and watched you talk long enough about this topic and how well you did in Cleveland. You say you shot the long side in Cleveland. but now your attacking others so I am going to now attack you. You story has changed twice now on another post about who you shot with in cleveland. When I asked you what stake you shot in Cleveland you said the one the rest on the AHC people in my group shot. Then later on you said you shot with a HC Semi and AHC. I looked up your scores and you have never shot a score even close to what you did this weekend. The scores show that the long range was was a tough one because people with better equipment didn't shoot that high up. When you shoot the the 2nd highest score outside the Pro and Semi class with pins at distances of 42+ targets several times and THE BIAZARRE HELP!!!!! YOU PUT ME IN THE WRONG CLASS I SHOT THE SHORT RANGE BUT THAT SCORE WILL LOOK GOOD IN AHC story it just seems little strange. I am glad you know how to fix the sandbaggers problem. Hey mabe you can recommend someone to stop CHEATERS.


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## psestaffshooter (Feb 9, 2009)

*Why attack yearning archers ??*

I am ashamed to see some tough guy keyboard commando on here dissuading another archer from competing or trying to do better. Dont stay on the porch !!! Get in the coop and shoot right next to the top dog...make him sweat and then see how he does...If you are so good...yourself....then offer to teach and coach others....are you going to be the lone saviour of the archery sports ?? Cmon...never put down another archer because he is not a top gunner....give him a tip if youre so much better yourself....anyone can boast on a keyboard....I say help all archers succeed...I would rather be beat by the kid or man or girl or woman I coached than dissaude him/her from shooting to get rid of the competition. I would welcome it !! Embrace our sport and the fellow archers in it.






YRhinefield said:


> I sure do get tired of hearing and reading all the whining by guys getting beat and calling the winners and top finishers sandbaggers. No where in the IBO rules does it state HC is a beginners class as Ace seems to think.
> 
> Both IBO and ASA have rules that clearly state the requirement for a shooter to move up in class after a certain monitary amount is won or X amount of wins in National events is achieved.
> 
> ...


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## EMSBMR (May 22, 2008)

I hear a lot of people complaining about sand baggers. 

So am I a sand bagger? Decide for yourself.

I bought my first bow, which I still use and shot in Cleveland this year, in January 2007. It was a Mathews Drenalin hot off the press. I didn't het to shoot much in 2007 because I was starting a business and that took most of my time. 

I shot exactly 4 local 3d shoots last year in 2008. Nothing major. I started getting more serious about shooting around the summer time if 2008. My practice regiment consisted of shooting 2 to 3 tmes per week. Started shooting indoor 3D once per week around November 2008 and continuing until Worlds in Cleveland. In that time frame, I picked the brains of many great shooters at my club who helped me with learning back tension and equipment set up. 

I entered my first major shoot, the IBO Indoor Worlds. Shot a 409 with 21 x's in HC. I shot the wrong target on target 37. I figured I would have at least got another x or a 10 on 37 if it was not for my stupid mistake and maybe brought my score up to 419 or 420. Oh well.

My point is, some people are good shooters and some aren't. If you want a higher score then practice more than you complain. And surround yourself with people that are better than you are. Your only as good as your competition.


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## Sniper1 (Jun 27, 2007)

EMSBMR said:


> My point is, some people are good shooters and some aren't. If you want a higher score then practice more than you complain. And surround yourself with people that are better than you are. Your only as good as your competition.


Dead on. I ALWAYS shoot better when I go around with really good shooters, and even when their equipment is superior to mine (Long Stabs and long sights, lenses up to 6 or 8 power, fatass arrows) they are hard put to beat me even then. They better not screw up much (like they often do, then throw a fit as if that can't happen the to them) or I'll beat them. I've even seen guys create a equipment problem that requires them to leave the group and go back to the Clubhouse. 
When I shoot with less skilled and experienced shooters, I seldom do as well as I can. It's a different experience totally.
I always had to check myself for complaining when I was missing 11's by a half inch or so. (I shoot from Unlimited with a Optimizer, with no lens, and shoot Gold Tips, not fat arrows, and a Carter "Two Shot"). I know I could step up, or step down, with equipment, but I like where I'm at, and comfortable. I got nothing to prove, but enjoy the experience.


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## KID INGY (Dec 21, 2008)

[. People don't move up because then they have to shoot the bow they hunt with against people with the 4 foot stabs etc..

I agree with you 100% trouble is i was at cleveland didnt see many hunting bows in hunter class but I seen alot of nice target bows


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## YRhinefield (Feb 22, 2006)

psestaffshooter said:


> I am ashamed to see some tough guy keyboard commando on here dissuading another archer from competing or trying to do better. Dont stay on the porch !!! Get in the coop and shoot right next to the top dog...make him sweat and then see how he does...If you are so good...yourself....then offer to teach and coach others....are you going to be the lone saviour of the archery sports ?? Cmon...never put down another archer because he is not a top gunner....give him a tip if youre so much better yourself....anyone can boast on a keyboard....I say help all archers succeed...I would rather be beat by the kid or man or girl or woman I coached than dissaude him/her from shooting to get rid of the competition. I would welcome it !! Embrace our sport and the fellow archers in it.[/QUOTE
> 
> 
> If I have to explain you wouldn't understand it.


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## bow-legged (Nov 26, 2002)

I did see a 4 guys on saturday with black and orange shooter shirts shoot and score there arrows. I think they may of been the high hunter class scores. They all should have been disqualified. I dont think parma archery or the ibo really gives a crap.


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## <COPE> (Jan 19, 2009)

*indoor worlds*

at indoor world i was in that group of four with the same shirts on. we sent our registrations in at the same time and parma archery put us together.When our names were called to get ready to shoot we tried to get them to break us up so that people didnt think we were cheating but since everything is a race there they wouldnt break us up.I assure you that we were not cheating. 3 of us were shooting the same class and the guy who was in a different class didnt even place in the top ten


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## Mac of Michigan (Mar 26, 2009)

mocheese said:


> If you make everyone that finishes in the top 25 move up at every event, eventually there will be no one in the class. However, I do agree that something needs to be done about the IBO Hunter Class.


Yeah they need to plan appropriately for it to be large. It seems obvious to me that the consumer is speaking in terms of establishing demand. Ya wanna fight it? Or except it and profit from it? One thing I see too often is that the hardcore shooters set stuff up for themselves at the expense of the bowhunters who are just trying this stuff for the first time. It kinda reminds me of college professors I had that had learned so much and taught so long that they forgot about the basics and could not teach them anymore. 
I would venture that most of us started out as hunters too. I know of too many who loved our sport when they could relax and shoot hunter stuff and then quit 'cause too many 'shooters' hassled them about stepping up. My dad taught me not to outshoot my practice range or my ability. He said to pratice twice the distance you intend to shoot prior to hunting or shooting competition. Not everyone can practice the longer stuff. Should we just let them leave? I say we encourage all to participate at whatever distance they feel comfortable. Then as hardcore shooters we adapt an 'ambassador' mentality and encourage new bowhunters to try it. A little catering to them will go a long way to build the sport. 
Questions for ya'll. Are there more bowhunters or target shooters? Who should be the target market? Just my 2 cents.


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## KID INGY (Dec 21, 2008)

[QUOTEmake him sweat and then see how he does...If you are so good...yourself....then offer to teach and coach others....are you going to be the lone saviour of the archery sports ?? Cmon...never put down another archer because he is not a top gunner....give him a tip if youre so much better yourself....anyone can boast o=YRhinefield;1054288582]


psestaffshooter said:


> I am ashamed to see some tough guy keyboard commando on here dissuading another archer from competing or trying to do better. Dont stay on the porch !!! Get in the coop and shoot right next to the top dog...n a keyboard....I say help all archers succeed...I would rather be beat by the kid or man or girl or woman I coached than dissaude him/her from shooting to get rid of the competition. I would welcome it !! Embrace our sport and the fellow archers in it.[/QUOTE
> 
> 
> If I have to explain you wouldn't understand it.


iI agree with you but dont you get it the hunter class was made to bring more people into the sport of archery and yes I know what the equipment rules are but it wasnt meant for what it has become


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## 3D Pinwheeler (Jan 29, 2007)

KID INGY said:


> iI agree with you but dont you get it the hunter class was made to bring more people into the sport of archery and yes I know what the equipment rules are but it wasnt meant for what it has become


What has it become? The biggest class in the IBO that doesn't even pay money. Do you really think the IBO will change anything? The rules are there play with them or stay home. If you win one of the big shoots your suppose to move up the following year. I shoot local tournaments in my area the biggest class...Hunter class. 80 people at a local shoot... 10 shoot youth class... 5 shoot a female class...5 shoot traditional... 3 shoot Open class...the rest are all in Hunter class. I personal like to see how I stack up against 57 guys rather than 3 this year I'm going to shoot the long stakes at the local shoots with my Hunter setup to get ready for the Triple crown and World's. I also shoot out to 80 yards to get ready for deer season but I won't shoot passed 40 while hunting.


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## ig25 (Feb 19, 2005)

*sandbaggers*

each club just needs to do there part and in one year if someone shoots for place's then bumb him up.
my self i love to shoot open but have never done great but when gets closer to hunting season i jump around between hunter and release class to get readly for hunting season.
but my shooting buddy banshed me from hunter class after wrecking some of his arrows  .
it was a little off color beings my hunting bow is also my open bow. i also must add i never cleaned up a course when i did drop back to get readly for hunting. but i suck. i shoot because i love archery.
it does suck that some people do not care how it looks when they are taking from beginners just getting into 3d by dropping class just to make them fell good. but my buddy's and i would not let people we shoot with do that with out being ragged the whole shoot.
my two cents


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## Bubba Dean (Jun 2, 2005)

Psestaffshooter-Understand that the Cleveland thing is a rose of another color. You have classes that shoot 25,30,35,40,45 & 50 yard max all shooting from one shooting line at basically two sets of targets. They have the 25,30 & 35 on the short set of targets and the 40,45 & 50 on the long set. You as an AHC shooter were in the same boat as some one in a 25 yard class that had to shoot longer shots. Remember when you are complaining about shots over your max that someone shooting 5 yards over their max in say a 25 yard class is shooting percentage wise a lot further than you are. Cleveland is what it is, it is tough to set an indoor shoot with one common shooting line and satisfy everyone. The nice thing about the way the shoot came off is that you can have some comparison to how you match up with the MBR guys.


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## psestaffshooter (Feb 9, 2009)

*I am just pointing out what i saw.*

I disagree....if you have all of these classes...then set shoot times for them...and how hard is it to place one or two more TAPE shooting lines ??

For all the preparation and cash we invested for this shoot...I was very dissapointed to see that we had to shoot 75% of our targets past our Maximum yardage...thats just wrong. For the money i personally invested..plus my sponsors cash...and everyone else who shot my class....minus the guys that shot the wrong targets and still turned in scores allegedly.....were dooped by a RULE CHANGE during game play...and what about the light deal....I am just not going to participate in such a farce shoot ever again. That was a joke..not a tournament. And the guys in the matching shirts...they are from route 157 archery...they are great guys...and did not cheat...we video taped some of their shots !! And i have no doubt that the IBO let them shoot or made them shoot together....they didint give a crap..and that is what opened the door for the alleged cheats with their sharp pencils......I had to DEMAND to be placed in the correct group. If i had been forced to shoot the short group..I would have left and turned in no score and filed a protest.... I am just saddened to think or believe that cheaters ruined it for the real class shooters. I knoe of 6 shooters in my class who are exceptional...and they felt dooped. I mean cmon. here are the results for the PROS......Guess there must be alot of PROS in other classes then...Look at these Pro scores then look at AHC and MBR etc...wow

Here are the results for PMR at the 2009 Indoor World Championship. Print Results 

Name City Total Score Total X 
Mike Cogar Shinnston, WV 423 29 
Dale Jones Franklin, PA 416 22 
Harold Cogar Lumburport, WV 416 18 
Ken Lantz Atlantic, PA 414 21 


ok and here is MBO .....hmmmn.....

Here are the results for MBO at the 2009 Indoor World Championship. Print Results 

Name City Total Score Total X 
Timothy J. Checkeroski Romeo, MI 422 24 
Jason Bis Hastings, MI 413 19 
Loren Lohr Jeddo, MI 412 18 
Vitus Loretto, Jr North Collins, NY 409 17 
Charles Wagner Volant, PA 409 15 
David Claassen New Kensington, PA 408 18 
Travis Lunsford Blairsville, GA 406 14 
Jimmy Mayle Grafton, WV 406 12 
Corey Koerber New Belli, MI 405 15 
Vince Kolacz Ashland, OH 405 13 
Sylvian St-Cyr Gatineau, Canada 404 19 
Thomas Martinelli Mars, PA 404 18 
John Guzzie Belle Vernon, PA 403 20 
Paul McDougall Wolcott, NY 402 19 
Joseph Gargasz New Castle, PA 402 19 
Richard Steele Weedsport, NY 402 16 
Matt Crownover Granville, PA 402 16 
David Young Gillett, PA 402 14 
Nate Dorsey Grove City, PA 401 16 

damn good shooting thats all i can say ..I guess...
well to anyone who has ever cheated or knowingly falsified a score....Keep it up...take it all....and soon...you will have no competition...cause the real shooters....will move on.


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## Bubba Dean (Jun 2, 2005)

PSE- The Pros do not shoot Cleveland because it is a meaningless shoot for them. No sponsor contingency money nor does it count for SOY. One thing that you must remember when dealing with IBO shoots, the hosts of the shoot are the IBO at that point. Parma Archery is the IBO at Cleveland, they set the shoot, interpret the rules and are generally responsible for everything. It is the same at all the STC and NTC shoots that IBO has. Ken and the board just sit back and let the host handle things. That is why you get some much crap going at some of these shoots. You have volunteers(God bless em) taking on the role of "officials". They, in some cases, have no clue to the rules or how things should be done. That is what you get with IBO. You have a couple of options though- you can just put up with it, quit shooting IBO or you can ***** your head off at Ken and the board(usually a waste of time and breath). Believe me I understand your frustration.


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## milkman38 (Mar 5, 2007)

psestaffshooter said:


> I disagree....if you have all of these classes...then set shoot times for them...and how hard is it to place one or two more TAPE shooting lines ??
> 
> For all the preparation and cash we invested for this shoot...I was very dissapointed to see that we had to shoot 75% of our targets past our Maximum yardage...thats just wrong. For the money i personally invested..plus my sponsors cash...and everyone else who shot my class....minus the guys that shot the wrong targets and still turned in scores allegedly.....were dooped by a RULE CHANGE during game play...and what about the light deal....I am just not going to participate in such a farce shoot ever again. That was a joke..not a tournament. And the guys in the matching shirts...they are from route 157 archery...they are great guys...and did not cheat...we video taped some of their shots !! And i have no doubt that the IBO let them shoot or made them shoot together....they didint give a crap..and that is what opened the door for the alleged cheats with their sharp pencils......I had to DEMAND to be placed in the correct group. If i had been forced to shoot the short group..I would have left and turned in no score and filed a protest.... I am just saddened to think or believe that cheaters ruined it for the real class shooters. I knoe of 6 shooters in my class who are exceptional...and they felt dooped. I mean cmon. here are the results for the PROS......Guess there must be alot of PROS in other classes then...Look at these Pro scores then look at AHC and MBR etc...wow
> 
> ...


wow...i guess... hey do a little research. lohr nat champ few years back in hc, bis ahc last year, last week finished top twenty at nfaa nat. shoot. tim always has strong scores. are these the real shooters you are talking about? about as real as it gets. sorry it really bugs me when someone gets called out by somebody thats talking out of their ... ...move on...


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## YRhinefield (Feb 22, 2006)

psestaffshooter said:


> I disagree....if you have all of these classes...then set shoot times for them...and how hard is it to place one or two more TAPE shooting lines ??
> 
> For all the preparation and cash we invested for this shoot...I was very dissapointed to see that we had to shoot 75% of our targets past our Maximum yardage...thats just wrong. For the money i personally invested..plus my sponsors cash...and everyone else who shot my class....minus the guys that shot the wrong targets and still turned in scores allegedly.....were dooped by a RULE CHANGE during game play...and what about the light deal....I am just not going to participate in such a farce shoot ever again. That was a joke..not a tournament. And the guys in the matching shirts...they are from route 157 archery...they are great guys...and did not cheat...we video taped some of their shots !! And i have no doubt that the IBO let them shoot or made them shoot together....they didint give a crap..and that is what opened the door for the alleged cheats with their sharp pencils......I had to DEMAND to be placed in the correct group. If i had been forced to shoot the short group..I would have left and turned in no score and filed a protest.... I am just saddened to think or believe that cheaters ruined it for the real class shooters. I knoe of 6 shooters in my class who are exceptional...and they felt dooped. I mean cmon. here are the results for the PROS......Guess there must be alot of PROS in other classes then...Look at these Pro scores then look at AHC and MBR etc...wow
> 
> ...


Need some cheese for your WHINE?


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## alfabuck (Dec 12, 2008)

I totally disagree with having to move up in classes. I'm a hunter who enjoys shooting my bow with pins and shorter stabilizers. I do it for fun and to improve my shooting skills with hunting equipment. Just because somebody gets really good with their equipment shouldnt mean they have to move up in classes. Must of us don't hunt with 30 inch stabilizers , a scope or v bars so we choose to shoot HC. Another thing is if people are more worried about winning just practice more and get better. I do it for fun and if i win it is a bonus. I want to be the best shooter i can be with equipment that i plan on using in the field and i bet there are a lot of others that feel the same.HC ROCKS!


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## psestaffshooter (Feb 9, 2009)

*Oh pardon me MR. Intellectually advanced archer...*

If I have to explain you wouldn't understand it.[/QUOTE]



I guess I should have noticed that you were intellectually far more advanced than anyone else here in AT. As you and acesarcher seem to be superior to all of us in the archery competition arena as well.....pardon us for being concerned about things like cheating etc......I think the whole answer is certified scoring. Judges should score the shoots and thats it. With the money that the indoor worlds generated for Parma archery...at 34. per shooter taken in...they could easily afford a couple of people to officially score all shooters....therefore reducing the ability for cheating or other unsavory acts. i am finished with this discussion...and the IBO


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## YRhinefield (Feb 22, 2006)

psestaffshooter

I saw in another thread that your from VT so I looked up your placement at the indoor world. You shot 97 points down from 1st place and finished 3rd from the bottom in AHC. 

Stop your excuses, whining and BS about cheaters, pro's shooting different classes, how bad the host club was, yardages to long etc. 

Your posts and excuses sound like you're a sore loser who got spanked.


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## mocheese (Dec 19, 2003)

*Just my opinion*

IBO lists HC as an Entry level class. If you are shooting 30+ up on 40 targets you should not be shooting in an "Entry Level" class. JMHO

I know this, we need to do something to encourage the new shooters and not discourage them.


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## Mac of Michigan (Mar 26, 2009)

alfabuck said:


> I totally disagree with having to move up in classes. I'm a hunter who enjoys shooting my bow with pins and shorter stabilizers. I do it for fun and to improve my shooting skills with hunting equipment. Just because somebody gets really good with their equipment shouldnt mean they have to move up in classes. Must of us don't hunt with 30 inch stabilizers , a scope or v bars so we choose to shoot HC. Another thing is if people are more worried about winning just practice more and get better. I do it for fun and if i win it is a bonus. I want to be the best shooter i can be with equipment that i plan on using in the field and i bet there are a lot of others that feel the same.HC ROCKS!


:thumbs_up:thumbs_up:thumbs_up:thumbs_up


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## psestaffshooter (Feb 9, 2009)

YRhinefield said:


> Need some cheese for your WHINE?




I was not whining....you obviously think...that you are a better and wiser human than anyone else here in the AT forums....and on the archery range as well.....I posted these scores to show that the pro's didnt even shoot 31 up... I shoot the AHC because I am not a beginner....I have no doubt that I could have cleaned the HC myself...but I have nothing to prove and needed not boost my ego with a 30 yard win at 31 over against people who are beginners. I just chimed in to point out some things that are wrong and I am not the only person that seems to think so. People like you with your better than all attitude and repetitive insults...should take a look at yourself and take a step back and ask yourself ...have I made a donation to the archery sport lately...have I helped anyone to better themselves...I coach more than i shoot...because I want to promote the sport...I didnt get to be a staffer for the many archery manufacturers that I shoot for by being a poor archer on the range...and my reputation is solid among my fellow archers...as a friend...competitor...and coach. Have a good one sir.:darkbeer:


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## YRhinefield (Feb 22, 2006)

psestaffshooter said:


> I was not whining....you obviously think...that you are a better and wiser human than anyone else here in the AT forums....and on the archery range as well.....I posted these scores to show that the pro's didnt even shoot 31 up... I shoot the AHC because I am not a beginner....I have no doubt that I could have cleaned the HC myself...but I have nothing to prove and needed not boost my ego with a 30 yard win at 31 over against people who are beginners. I just chimed in to point out some things that are wrong and I am not the only person that seems to think so. People like you with your better than all attitude and repetitive insults...should take a look at yourself and take a step back and ask yourself ...have I made a donation to the archery sport lately...have I helped anyone to better themselves...I coach more than i shoot...because I want to promote the sport...I didnt get to be a staffer for the many archery manufacturers that I shoot for by being a poor archer on the range...and my reputation is solid among my fellow archers...as a friend...competitor...and coach. Have a good one sir.:darkbeer:


psestaffshooter,

You started this nonsence by attacking me, what I posted, questioned what I've done to help promote archery and then acuse me of repetitive insults......What a joke. I know what I've done in archery over the past 35+ years.

If you are indeed a staff shooter (field staff) you better re-read the PSE requirements for being one. No where in the requirements for being a PSE staff shooter(which I have right in front of me) can I find any verbage or reference to slandering host clubs, acusing people of cheating, acusing Pro's of shooting in wrong classes, complaining about yardages being to long etc. I'm sure PSE and JB the NorthEast Rep for PSE would be real proud of your conduct while representing PSE as a staff shooter. 

Don't throw stones if you live in a glass house! I'm done responding to you.


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## milkman38 (Mar 5, 2007)

YRhinefield said:


> psestaffshooter,
> 
> You started this nonsence by attacking me, what I posted, questioned what I've done to help promote archery and then acuse me of repetitive insults......What a joke. I know what I've done in archery over the past 35+ years.
> 
> ...


well said! and this thread should be done also.


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## V.A.S.A (Mar 31, 2009)

*people making assumptions....*



YRhinefield said:


> psestaffshooter
> 
> I saw in another thread that your from VT so I looked up your placement at the indoor world. You shot 97 points down from 1st place and finished 3rd from the bottom in AHC.
> 
> ...



Greetings...I am the person you just bashed in this last post sir...I didnt shoot as hot as I usually do...I was not prepared to shoot past 41 yards...why should I have ?? In the IBO rules it is clear that the class AHC does not shoot past 40 yards. I am not here to whine...or complain..I was made aware that i was used in a post that i had nothing to do with. I have read all of the posts here. I must say that I am shocked to see this type of thing going on among fellow archers. I can say that some people seem to be rightfully upset or dissapointed. But as for the bashing....cmon. These are the kinds of things that are killing the archery sport. we need to keep it alive...not wear it out. If you want to shoot and win money and trophies...and shoot your class from your designated yardages...and know the payouts ahead of time...shoot one of our tournaments...we will be holding 8 shoots this season outdoors. They will all have a points system leading to a final shootout of the best in each class for the top spot.

thanks.


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## YRhinefield (Feb 22, 2006)

V.A.S.A.

My emotions, judgement, and posting were out of line on this thread. 
PM sent with sincere apology.



Please let this thread die


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## psestaffshooter (Feb 9, 2009)

*Everyone on this thread*

I sincerely apologize as well for my threads. I got caught up in all of the postings i saw regarding cheating etc...and i am very sorry for participating...and i want to alsoi say that I have no affiliation with pse or any other manufacturer in the industry at this time...i used to shoot pse for a shop....so i would hope this apology is accepted. And congrats to the top shooters. C:darkbeer:


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## Sniper1 (Jun 27, 2007)

How about a round of Xanax for the house? It's on me.


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## jwolfe78 (Mar 10, 2006)

V.A.S.A said:


> Greetings...I am the person you just bashed in this last post sir...I didnt shoot as hot as I usually do...I was not prepared to shoot past 41 yards...why should I have ?? In the IBO rules it is clear that the class AHC does not shoot past 40 yards. I am not here to whine...or complain..I was made aware that i was used in a post that i had nothing to do with. I have read all of the posts here. I must say that I am shocked to see this type of thing going on among fellow archers. I can say that some people seem to be rightfully upset or dissapointed. But as for the bashing....cmon. These are the kinds of things that are killing the archery sport. we need to keep it alive...not wear it out. If you want to shoot and win money and trophies...and shoot your class from your designated yardages...and know the payouts ahead of time...shoot one of our tournaments...we will be holding 8 shoots this season outdoors. They will all have a points system leading to a final shootout of the best in each class for the top spot.
> 
> thanks.



Where does it say that AHC can not shoot past 40yds... I have read the rule book MANY times.... what does approximate mean? Over and under correct?? So are you upset for shooting targets under 40yds also? If you have a 45 yard target... and if you put your 41 yard pin on that target and it is 45 yards, then you should be off only 3"'s if you let your arrow fly if it was in the middle of the 11 and you should be hanging a lot of 10's. I think most people will confirm an arrow will usually drop from 40 - 50 yds about 3/4" of an inch per yard. Oh well I guess.... or you could always just put your 41yd pin @ the top of the 10.... and hit the 11.


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## V.A.S.A (Mar 31, 2009)

jwolfe78 said:


> Where does it say that AHC can not shoot past 40yds... I have read the rule book MANY times.... what does approximate mean? Over and under correct?? So are you upset for shooting targets under 40yds also? If you have a 45 yard target... and if you put your 41 yard pin on that target and it is 45 yards, then you should be off only 3"'s if you let your arrow fly if it was in the middle of the 11 and you should be hanging a lot of 10's. I think most people will confirm an arrow will usually drop from 40 - 50 yds about 3/4" of an inch per yard. Oh well I guess.... or you could always just put your 41yd pin @ the top of the 10.... and hit the 11.


I am not here to argue with anyone about anything.....The IBO rule book states under the the name of the class what color pin they shoot from...or line....the max for the hunter class is 35 yards... the max for the AHC is 40 yards. The ibo set this as their rules in their rulebook...and I dont shoot a super speed bow.. I am a yardage estimation shooter. My bow drops alot past 40 yards. I am an ace from 40 yards in.. I am also a hunter. I never take unethical shots.. and IMO...over 40 yards is too far to take a shot for any game animal with any archery equip. I am only set up with 4 pins...as stated as well in the rules. So it was tough for me...and I did compensate...i mean the poles are a dead giveaway for you to KNOW the yardages there....But...I just stated that I was unprepared for that type of shot...does that make me a bad guy ?? Take care and keep shooting them right down the middle guys gals and cubs !!!


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## spot&dot (Nov 4, 2003)

Did anyone notice the winner of AHC has been moved to HC? Any info on this?


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## V.A.S.A (Mar 31, 2009)

*It is what it is......*



spot&dot said:


> Did anyone notice the winner of AHC has been moved to HC? Any info on this?




I dont think there needs to be any further discussion on this...This is archery talk...ARCHERS HELPING ARCHERS...PLEASE TRY TO REMEMBER THIS EVERYONE.....THANKS AND CONGRATS TO THE WINNERS IN ANY SHOOTS.


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## Sniper1 (Jun 27, 2007)

V.A.S.A said:


> ....THANKS AND CONGRATS TO THE WINNERS IN ANY SHOOTS.


*After they finally figure out who they are!*


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## <COPE> (Jan 19, 2009)

V.A.S.A said:


> I am not here to argue with anyone about anything.....The IBO rule book states under the the name of the class what color pin they shoot from...or line....the max for the hunter class is 35 yards... the max for the AHC is 40 yards. The ibo set this as their rules in their rulebook...and I dont shoot a super speed bow.. I am a yardage estimation shooter. My bow drops alot past 40 yards. I am an ace from 40 yards in.. I am also a hunter. I never take unethical shots.. and IMO...over 40 yards is too far to take a shot for any game animal with any archery equip. I am only set up with 4 pins...as stated as well in the rules. So it was tough for me...and I did compensate...i mean the poles are a dead giveaway for you to KNOW the yardages there....But...I just stated that I was unprepared for that type of shot...does that make me a bad guy ?? Take care and keep shooting them right down the middle guys gals and cubs !!!


this happened to me last year ,i was unprepared for the distance that they had us shooting at because it does say in the rulebook that our max is 40 yards...but i did notice this year that it does say on the entry form that AHC is going to be shooting 45 yards, and i have nothing against shooting 45 yards because there is no really any other way they can set it up


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## jcs-bowhunter (Jul 7, 2007)

Going back to the original questions...

Below is just my opionion on the HC topic and keep in mind that I do not shoot in this class so take it with a grain of salt. We have to determine what needs to be solved here. Are we trying to recruit more casual or hunter centric shooters or strictly promoting the higher end shooters to more advanced classes? I think that we need to focus on growing the sport by giving folks an easy entry point.

1) In my opinion the Hunter Class should not have back tension releases allowed. This single piece of equipment says 2 things to novices 1) your up against advanced shooters, 2) you have no chance in placing against them. This sends a strong negative message to guys who think they are trying out in an ENTRY LEVEL CLASS class. I know someone will argue the fact that they or someone they know hunts with a "pink 4 finger Stan", but we all know that at least 98% of all releases used for hunting are index finger. I also understand that many shoot a index release using a back tension technique to still get a surprise release (this is how I shoot one). I also concede that the better shooters will usually win these events, but the perception for many newer shooters is that they are up against guys with "target" equipment and have no chance to win in this ENTRY LEVEL CLASS. I'm OK with more experienced guys shooting in whatever class they want, we just have to give the perception that with newbies that with a level equipment field their ability is what separates them from the winners. As an example, I 3D shoot casually with a group of bowhunters during the summer and when I suggest trying a BT release to help them with their annual TP issues they get a horrified look on their faces and refuse. Although harmless, BT releases can cause quite a stir with hunter centric archers. As all of us are confronted by time and money restrictions we need to keep at least one avenue wide open to this large group of potential new shooters (don't give them the "equipment" excuse not to participate). In short, my suggestion is to change the hunter class equipment requirements to hunting equipment only.

2) Continue to allow the back tension releases in the Advanced Hunter Class. This would give a "two tier" field that would allow novices easy entry and allow more the advanced or experienced shooters who are not interested in scopes and long stabilizers a very competitive class to shoot their mostly hunting setups in. The extra 5 yards also ups the range estimation skills needed.

To highlight the opposite to the HC issue, I'll point out that very few shooters participate in the HF (Hunter Fingers) Class (at least here in Michigan). I've shot this class the last couple years and have never had more one other shooter in the class with me. So I have the opposite problem of shooting in a under represented class. So if you want to shoot in a less competitive class to place higher in the rankings, give it a try.


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## Fire Archer (Jul 23, 2008)

Michael Jordan was once a beginner. He was even cut in high school and was told he was not good enough to play at that level, but did he start crying and whining because he wasn't good enough. No, he practiced and became one of the greatest of all time. So, I say practice, practice, practice. If you all spent the time practicing you do whining you could be pro in a couple of years. Everyone starts as a beginner.


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## archerm3 (Jan 4, 2007)

Fire Archer said:


> Michael Jordan was once a beginner. He was even cut in high school and was told he was not good enough to play at that level, but did he start crying and whining because he wasn't good enough. No, he practiced and became one of the greatest of all time. So, I say practice, practice, practice. If you all spent the time practicing you do whining you could be pro in a couple of years. Everyone starts as a beginner.


That's a fine motivational story. Now take that story to 10 average bowhunters that don't shoot terribly well and never go to 3d tourneys and convince them to start showing up regularly to target shoots. I don't think you'll find many takers over 21 years old.


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## Grnmtn (Feb 1, 2003)

jcs... just and FYI... back tention is what is used by your body to activate a trigger and or hinge stlye mechinal device. It is not a "type of release". There are lots of people who use back tention to shoot in the hunter class and others whom hunt with the same style of release aid to hunt with.


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## jcs-bowhunter (Jul 7, 2007)

Grnmtn said:


> jcs... just and FYI... back tention is what is used by your body to activate a trigger and or hinge stlye mechinal device. It is not a "type of release". There are lots of people who use back tention to shoot in the hunter class and others whom hunt with the same style of release aid to hunt with.


Grnmt

Yep, I got my vocabulary wrong. Should of refered to a "hinge" vs "back tension". Ultimately I'm talking about engaging with folks who have killed many deer with a bow but are intimidated by "target" equipment and are reluctant to 3D shoot tournaments.

I don't shoot a release much anymore. But when I do I shoot a Scott Mongoose with the back tension technique you described.

I guess the question back at you is do you hunt with a hinge release? It may be a fun to create a poll in the Hunting Forum. If I have to eat some crow then that's OK (would not be the first time).

Like I said in my original post I do not shoot this class so whether the rules change or not does not effect me, I was just stating my thoughts.


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## Grnmtn (Feb 1, 2003)

Yea I have used either a 3 finger Stan or Zenith release for the past 15 years hunting. I can't put my finger on a trigger without having the need to punch anymore. I shoot MBR and use the same release for all of it so I am very confident with the whole set up. I have shot everything from squirls, woodchucks, rabbits, turkeys, deer, caribou, black bears... well you get the idea. I will say tho I change up my shot speed for hunting and have to work real hard to slow it down for 3D.

I believe there is an old pole a year or so old on this. There are more people out there then you think who use a hinge style. I ask people why when they shoot so well all 3 d season do they switch for hunting... 

I guess we hy-jack this thread enough. A new thread you be interesting on this.


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## sj_lutz (Feb 25, 2005)

Closed per request of the OP.


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