# Inno Limbs Actual Weight



## ksarcher (May 22, 2002)

I have Inno 36# and Winex 40#. With the limb bolts at minimum setting (limbs even with top of pocket). The inno are 38# and the winex are 42.5#. If I set the clicker to a 28" draw the limbs are right on. 

An interesting discovery with the inno limbs is I get the same impact point as with the winex at 50 mtr. The true test will be at 70 and 90. Another finding is the winex is smoother at the higher weight than the inno...

Then again it may just be me..

Stan


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## Dave T (Mar 24, 2004)

I have three sets of W&W limbs. All three are close to their marked weight at the lowest (lightest) limb bolt setting. They all go up from there. I've never heard of any limbs that are the marked weight at the highest setting. Someone else my know of some but it's a new idea to me. I think the guy at Lancaster got it backwards. Happens to the best of us from time to time.

Dave


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## Paradoxical Cat (Apr 25, 2006)

Dave T said:


> I have three sets of W&W limbs. All three are close to their marked weight at the lowest (lightest) limb bolt setting. They all go up from there. I've never heard of any limbs that are the marked weight at the highest setting. Someone else my know of some but it's a new idea to me. I think the guy at Lancaster got it backwards. Happens to the best of us from time to time.
> 
> Dave


If I remember correctly, Hoyt limbs are marked for the middle of their adjustment range. I have a pair of KAP 32# limbs that have an adjustment range of 28# to > 34# on the Helix. So who knows what the marking means? I imagine that, to some degree, weight range will depend on draw length and riser geometry.

Just to clarify: draw weight and tiller are two different things. Tiller is the offset of the string distances from the top and bottom limbs, measured at the point they exit the limb pockets.

PC-


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## [email protected] (Jan 19, 2006)

WinWin measures poundage at 26.5 inches, instead of the US standard 28 inches. 

Currently, all sets of WW limbs that I've used, the lightest tiller setting, at 28" was within a half pound of where it was supposed to be.


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## Progen (Mar 17, 2006)

[email protected] said:


> WinWin measures poundage at 26.5 inches, instead of the US standard 28 inches.
> 
> ...


Yeah, that's what the Win & Win manual says so it's not a matter of them giving you more poundage for your money, just that they measure it differently.


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## montana1329 (Apr 7, 2007)

Thanks everyone for all their input! I probably woulda keeled over trying to pull back 44# limbs, especially after my last limbs are 26 #ers!



ksarcher said:


> I have Inno 36# and Winex 40#. With the limb bolts at minimum setting (limbs even with top of pocket). The inno are 38# and the winex are 42.5#. If I set the clicker to a 28" draw the limbs are right on.
> 
> An interesting discovery with the inno limbs is I get the same impact point as with the winex at 50 mtr. The true test will be at 70 and 90. Another finding is the winex is smoother at the higher weight than the inno...
> 
> Stan


Very interesting. So without changing anything on the riser the 36# inno's hit where your Winex 40#'s hit? So the Inno is noticably more effecient than the Winex?


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## Paradoxical Cat (Apr 25, 2006)

montana1329 said:


> Thanks everyone for all their input! I probably woulda keeled over trying to pull back 44# limbs, especially after my last limbs are 26 #ers!


How much are you drawing now? Make a stepped jump, e.g. if you are pulling 30# with the limbs maxed, get limbs that will put you at ~32# at their lowest setting. You will be able to draw more weight, but you will pay for it with injury. 

If you are definitely underbowed, then it is a different matter. Just remember that drawing a bow by B.E.S.T. uses many muscles that are ordinarily stabilizing. They are not as strong as your major muscle groups.

I am currently drawing 34#. I can draw 47#. However, after 20 arrows at 47# (as opposed to 100+ at 34#), my back muscles are on fire. Be careful.

PC-


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## Boltsmyth (Nov 16, 2002)

Hi,

Just got my Inno. Looking at the user manual, it states that the marked weight of the limbs is "measured at 26 1/4" (AMO Standard) when used with Win & Win 25" risers." This to the pivot point plus 1 3/4" would be the 28" that we are used to working with. So we are comparing apples to apples.

Joe B.


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## Progen (Mar 17, 2006)

Boltsmyth said:


> Hi,
> 
> Just got my Inno. Looking at the user manual, it states that the marked weight of the limbs is "measured at 26 1/4" (AMO Standard) when used with Win & Win 25" risers." This to the pivot point plus 1 3/4" would be the 28" that we are used to working with. So we are comparing apples to apples.
> 
> Joe B.


Unless Win & Win had made a mistake, I'd say we take their word for it that their limb weights are marked correctly as per their way of measuring which would put the pivot point somewhere around 24 1/2". Perhaps their designers were all hobbits with short arms? Who knows? :smile: 



> 2.1.1 archery manufacturers organization (AMO) draw
> length, n—the distance at the archer’s full draw from the string
> at the nocking point to a vertical line through the pivot point of
> the bow grip, +13⁄4 in. (44 mm).


Notice that it doesn't mention 28" as the 'standard' drawlength?

Anyway, I have two sets of Win & Win limbs and as far as I'm concerned, if I can draw them easily and consistently, and if my arrows spine well, that's good enough for me. :darkbeer:


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## Boltsmyth (Nov 16, 2002)

Please refer to:

http://archerysearch.com/publications/AmoStandards.pdf
AMO Draw Length Standard

http://www.hoyt.com/technical/pdf/2006_Recurve_Manual.pdf
page 4

I think this will clear things up. 

It used to be that drawweight was measured at a 28" draw to the back of the bow. As bows became less uniform the AMO, now ATA, created the standard of measuring drawweight at 26 1/4" to the pivot point. On many bows the additional 1 3/4" makes 28" to the back of the bow.


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## Progen (Mar 17, 2006)

Boltsmyth, I would suggest you refer again to the AMO standards file again with an open mind. In the section on drawlength, which I quote below, again there is NO mention of 28" despite the majority of manufacturers using that as a standard.



http://archerysearch.com/publications/AmoStandards.pdf
said:


> Draw length is a specified distance, or the distance at the archer’s full draw, from the nocking point on the string to the pivot point of the bow grip (or the theoretical vertical projection of a tangency line to the pivot point parallel to the string) plus 1 3/4”. Draw length from pivot point shall be designed at DLPP and shall be called TRUE DRAW LENGTH.
> EXAMPLE: 26 1/4” DLPP plus 1 3/4” is the equivalent of 28” draw.


So if a manufacturer were to say that their limbs were marked 40lbs at AMO 25", that'd mean 23 1/4" to the pivot point on their test equipment. Win & Win has SPECIFICALLY quoted 26 1/4" AMO which (if it's not an error on their part) is their prerogative as a world class equipment manufacturer and it's not up to the rest of the world to shove 28" as a world standard down their throats. :wink: No doubt one would think that 28" deducted by 1 3/4" makes 26 1/4" nicely but could that be mere coincidence?

Again, I'm replying based on the assumption that Win & Win used 24 1/2" to the pivot point on their test equipment. :darkbeer:


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## toxoman (Sep 10, 2004)

Progen said:


> In the section on draw length, which I quote below, again there is NO mention of 28" despite the majority of manufacturers using that as a standard.


True, it's not mentioned in the Draw Length section. Not surprising since that section deals only with measuring draw length and not draw weight. But when you measure draw weight, the standard is indeed 28". It is mentioned in two other sections.

Refer back to page 6 under the Spine Selection section: "For standardization purposes, all bows are weighed and marked at 28" draw length." I would suppose that might include limbs too. 

Also, refer to page 9 in the AMO Bow Weight Standard section "For the purpose of uniform bow weight designation..."

My guess is that the Win quote may have been garbled in translation. Might also be that they simply interpreted the standard incorrectly. Who knows?


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## Seattlepop (Dec 8, 2003)

Progen said:


> Again, I'm replying based on the assumption that Win & Win used 24 1/2" to the pivot point on their test equipment. :darkbeer:



I'll admit that I am frequently dazed and confused, but I don't get this. It doesn't compute that WW uses 24 1/2" for the pivot pt. It makes sense to me that they use 26 1/4" as Joe quoted from his WW limbs. This explains why the weight for WW and other non-Hoyt limbs is around 4lbs higher than expected had you assumed it was measured at 28". If the pivot was 24 1/2', it seems we would be expecting closer to 8 or 10 lbs difference.


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## Custard (Feb 23, 2007)

Toxoman is dead on right. All manufacturers use the 26 1/4 to pivot, Win & Win and Hoyt use the same technique. this is also from the AMO site, under PIVOT POINT.
John.

The point at which True Draw Length and Manufacturer’s Draw Length and
Draw Weight are determined.
True Draw Length is the Draw Length from Pivot Point and is designated
as DLPP.
AMO Draw Length is the distance to Pivot Point plus 1 3/4”. This establishes a
constant when compared to the variations of profile of the back
of bows. Thus - 26 1/4” from Pivot Point is equivalent to 28” draw length and is
the draw length at which manufacturers weight and mark conventional bows.


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## Progen (Mar 17, 2006)

Seattlepop said:


> I'll admit that I am frequently dazed and confused, but I don't get this. It doesn't compute that WW uses 24 1/2" for the pivot pt. It makes sense to me that they use 26 1/4" as Joe quoted from his WW limbs. This explains why the weight for WW and other non-Hoyt limbs is around 4lbs higher than expected had you assumed it was measured at 28". If the pivot was 24 1/2', it seems we would be expecting closer to 8 or 10 lbs difference.



Err, not quite, SeattlePop. Assuming that they did indeed mean 26 1/2" AMO which means an actual distance of 24 1/2" to the pivot point, then it makes total sense for their limbs to weigh more when measured at a distance of 26 1/4" to the pivot point which will then give us an AMO measurement of 28".


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## ksarcher (May 22, 2002)

W&W is 26 1/4 + 1 3/4 = 28....

I think the question has been answered!!!

SO next subject

Sb


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## Progen (Mar 17, 2006)

Progen said:


> ... Win & Win has SPECIFICALLY quoted 26 1/4" AMO which (if it's not an error on their part) is their prerogative as a world class equipment manufacturer and it's not up to the rest of the world to shove 28" as a world standard down their throats. :wink: No doubt one would think that 28" deducted by 1 3/4" makes 26 1/4" nicely but could that be mere coincidence?
> ...





Anyway, I'll just end this with what I said earlier. If the limb poundage ain't hurting my shooting and if my arrows spine fine, I'm not going to let a little manufacturer peculiarity get to me.  And I'm certainly not going to insist that they adhere to any standards.


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## Custard (Feb 23, 2007)

If a manufacturer quotes AMO standards I think it is safe to assume they mean 26 ¼ to pivot as this is the AMO standard for “_true draw length_” and the AMO standard say….
“_bow weight is the force required to draw the bow string 26 1/4” from the pivot point. This weight will be marked on bow as being taken at 28” draw_”

If they did not mean this, and they are using there own standards then why mention AMO?

W&W and Hoyt vary because (as P. Cat said) Hoyt quote weight at mid setting and W&W at the high setting. In the same riser…..
Hoyt 40* limbs would range from 38-42
W&W 40* limbs would range from 40-44
This is assuming the limbs are marked up right. The tolerance allows up to 1LB variation (and probably exceeds this sometimes)
Also different risers (even from the same maker) can give differing result if the geometry is not the same.
John.


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## Paradoxical Cat (Apr 25, 2006)

ksarcher said:


> W&W is 26 1/4 + 1 3/4 = 28....
> 
> I think the question has been answered!!!
> 
> ...


Uh...no...

The issue is still whether W&W is 26.25 + 1.75 = 28 OR 26.25 = 26.25. W&W's label markings are not clear.

The disparity could also be explained by the settings of the limb bolts at the time the limbs' weight is measured. If W&W's labels indicate the lowest weight, then it could explain some of what archers are experiencing.

Empirically, I think they are measured from a 26.25 = 26.25 at peak weight. I have a pair of KAP (W&W) 32# limbs that have an adjustment range of ~28# - ~36# at 28.5". This could be explained by the limb weight being measured at 26.25 at the maximum limb bolt setting.

Perhaps it is "dancing about architecture", but it is of some concern to the archer buying W&W limbs.

PC-


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## Custard (Feb 23, 2007)

This is my last post on this as you can only say the same thing so many ways.

From HOYT….
_What is "ATA Standard" draw length?
A method of measurement has been established to provide an industry standard of draw length and eliminate the variances in the original method caused by different thicknesses of bow risers. The ATA Standard Draw Length is arrived at by measuring the "Draw Length to Pivot Point" which is the distance from the string's nock point to the pivot point of the grip, and adding 1 and 3/4 inches. The 1 and 3/4 inches represents the average distance from the far side of the bow to the bow grips pivot point. Manufactures use this ATA Standard Draw Length when they designate the draw length of a bow._

So standard draw length is ….. “nock to pivot + 1 ¾ inches”	
It does not say nock to pivot is 26 ¼ but if Hoyt are not using 26 ¼ then Hoyt are not using AMO standards.

The fact is most makers quote limb weight at the minimum setting, Hoyt at the mid setting.

Goodnight all, John.


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## montana1329 (Apr 7, 2007)

I love it.
My innocent little noobie post has created an all out war!
Keep it up!
:thumbs_up


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## Progen (Mar 17, 2006)

Custard said:


> ...
> The *fact* is most makers quote limb weight at the minimum setting, Hoyt at the mid setting.
> ...


Actually, what I'm wondering right now is whether any manufacturers have come out and say, 'Yes, we measure limb weight at our test riser's minimum / mid / maximum setting.' I'm pretty sure all their test equipment have different geometries so why are we as their customers so eager to make definitive assumptions based on non conclusive 'facts'?


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## Progen (Mar 17, 2006)

Ok, got a reply from Win & Win. Their limbs are marked with the string to the pivot point at a distance of 26 1/4" which means that their owner's manual is wrong since they added the AMO after.



Jinie Lee said:


> Weight is marked at 26 4/1" draw from pivot point to the string and limbs are used with 25" riser.


Now begs the question of as to why some archers find that their limbs are heavier than marked. :wink:


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## teebat (Oct 28, 2013)

[email protected] said:


> WinWin measures poundage at 26.5 inches, instead of the US standard 28 inches.
> 
> Currently, all sets of WW limbs that I've used, the lightest tiller setting, at 28" was within a half pound of where it was supposed to be.


Ok, so I need to take that into consideration. Thanks.


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