# World Archery shoots down adding Barebow Championships



## rharper (Apr 30, 2012)

From Barebow Project:
In a decision by World Archery upon a motion to add World Championship for Barebow analogous to the recurve and compound divisions.
“Target Archery Committee:
Inclusion of barebow would raise the participation number so high that it would be impossible to find organisers for target World Archery Championships due to necessary venue size. If this motion is accepted, it would result in setting a participation limit for every category (including for recurve and compound). Or would be leading to an extension of the event programme which would significantly raise the price of participation for all teams.
Looking from World Archery perspective, it would also mean extra cost and budget increase which means there will need to be something that World Archery will do less in the future if extra revenue sources not found.”

Read full report here. At 1:08 on video

I get the cost per day but barebow wouldn't be able to bring enough people to support it or countries are too poor to add barebow??


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## rharper (Apr 30, 2012)

In other WA news:

















....We really want more archers but we are going to do it the hard way and say they have to do compound or Olympic.


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## rharper (Apr 30, 2012)

Double post


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

rharper said:


> In other WA news:
> View attachment 7468476
> 
> View attachment 7468477
> ...


SMDH.

The elitist bias against barebow rears it's ugly head yet again. They will never admit it in public, but so many in the WA and USArchery community look down their noses at barebow. I heard all the comments back when everyone thought I was "just an Olympic recurve archer." I still remember who said what and when about barebow. 

Progress has been so damn slow. There will continue to be bias against barebow archers serving in positions of influence in these organizations as well. That will be the next battle. 

Too many. LOL what a ridiculous reason. Just set a MQS and get on with it for God's sake.


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## rharper (Apr 30, 2012)

After watching the vids, it was the member associations in general that shot it down. 102 no to 84 yes.


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## lameduck (Jul 24, 2019)

I smell politics....Those who make stabilizers, clickers, and sights have to lobby against barebow...because they want to force barebow shooters to transition to Olympic-style equipment (so they continue making money on accessories).

And some Olympic recurve shooters are switching to barebow, and maybe attracting other OR shooters to do the same.


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## FerrumVeritas (Oct 9, 2020)

There’s really no way to win. World Archery definitely isn’t about promoting archery if they refuse to acknowledge the fastest growing division because there are too many people (what?).


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## Hikari (May 15, 2021)

lameduck said:


> I smell politics....Those who make stabilizers, clickers, and sights have to lobby against barebow...because they want to force barebow shooters to transition to Olympic-style equipment (so they continue making money on accessories).
> 
> And some Olympic recurve shooters are switching to barebow, and maybe attracting other OR shooters to do the same.


That actually is probably not a driver. Canceling the barebow division will not increase OR numbers. WA is not the only place to shoot a barebow and the idea that people would go to OR because of one championship is not very logical. Besides, WA Field Championships has a vibrant barebow class.


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## Hikari (May 15, 2021)

FerrumVeritas said:


> There’s really no way to win. World Archery definitely isn’t about promoting archery if they refuse to acknowledge the fastest growing division because there are too many people (what?).


There are all kinds of archery not promoted by WA. They do not have to promote every form. But what is wrong about the WA Field Championships that have barebow? It seems they do support it.


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## FerrumVeritas (Oct 9, 2020)

Hikari said:


> There are all kinds of archery not promoted by WA. They do not have to promote every form. But what is wrong about the WA Field Championships that have barebow? It seems they do support it.


Field archery is a different (but related) skill set to target archery. Target archery is exponentially more popular. It’s also much, much easier to practice. Being the WGB of a sport, but not offering championship competitions for a section of that sport—not due to participation numbers that are too low but because of the fear that numbers are too high—is failing to serve the participants of the sport.

Target archery is not the same as field archery. WA does not see them as the same. There are different rule books for each. There are different committees.

Championship events provide a goal for athletes. They provide legitimacy to disciplines and competitions. They have value. By not offering one, WA is telling barebow archers “if you want to be a world class athlete, you have to shoot something else.”


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## FerrumVeritas (Oct 9, 2020)

Hikari said:


> That actually is probably not a driver. Canceling the barebow division will not increase OR numbers. WA is not the only place to shoot a barebow and the idea that people would go to OR because of one championship is not very logical. Besides, WA Field Championships has a vibrant barebow class.


WA was the only place to shoot barebow as most archers would understand it (defined by WA) just a few years ago. NFAA Barebow includes compounds. IFAA barebow has sights and clickers. To shoot “barebow” outside of WA you were told that you either had to compete against people with additional equipment and aids or that you couldn’t stringwalk (and shoot trad). It is the standardization of barebow at major events like Lancaster and USA Target Nationals that has directly contributed to the explosive growth. Because barebow serves a market and type of shooter that compound, OR, and trad just don’t.


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## rsarns (Sep 23, 2008)

FerrumVeritas said:


> WA was the only place to shoot barebow as most archers would understand it (defined by WA) just a few years ago. NFAA Barebow includes compounds. IFAA barebow has sights and clickers. To shoot “barebow” outside of WA you were told that you either had to compete against people with additional equipment and aids or that you couldn’t stringwalk (and shoot trad). It is the standardization of barebow at major events like Lancaster and USA Target Nationals that has directly contributed to the explosive growth. Because barebow serves a market and type of shooter that compound, OR, and trad just don’t.


NFAA adopted a BBR class over 2 years ago. It’s well participated and NFAA includes it in all its venues.


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## Jim C (Oct 15, 2002)

rharper said:


> From Barebow Project:
> In a decision by World Archery upon a motion to add World Championship for Barebow analogous to the recurve and compound divisions.
> “Target Archery Committee:
> Inclusion of barebow would raise the participation number so high that it would be impossible to find organisers for target World Archery Championships due to necessary venue size. If this motion is accepted, it would result in setting a participation limit for every category (including for recurve and compound). Or would be leading to an extension of the event programme which would significantly raise the price of participation for all teams.
> ...


who are our delegates to this body and how did they vote?


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## FerrumVeritas (Oct 9, 2020)

rsarns said:


> NFAA adopted a BBR class over 2 years ago. It’s well participated and NFAA includes it in all its venues.


NFAA adopted it for the 2020 season. The Vegas Shoot does not have a championship barebow recurve class (hopefully in 2022). Technically ”Barebow recurve” is just a class during a provisional, trial period of two voting terms.


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## BeiterBiter (Aug 11, 2021)

Well, this decision doesn't line up with their stated "strategic GOAL" of raising the number of registered archers from 460.000 to 10.000.000.



limbwalker said:


> Just set a MQS and get on with it for God's sake.


Precisely.


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## Hikari (May 15, 2021)

FerrumVeritas said:


> Field archery is a different (but related) skill set to target archery. Target archery is exponentially more popular. It’s also much, much easier to practice. Being the WGB of a sport, but not offering championship competitions for a section of that sport—not due to participation numbers that are too low but because of the fear that numbers are too high—is failing to serve the participants of the sport.
> 
> Target archery is not the same as field archery. WA does not see them as the same. There are different rule books for each. There are different committees.
> 
> Championship events provide a goal for athletes. They provide legitimacy to disciplines and competitions. They have value. By not offering one, WA is telling barebow archers “if you want to be a world class athlete, you have to shoot something else.”


Field archers are world class athletes. Field archery is not inferior to target archery. Not all sports are going to be popular. That does not diminish the value of the sport.


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## FerrumVeritas (Oct 9, 2020)

Hikari said:


> Field archers are world class athletes. Field archery is not inferior to target archery. Not all sports are going to be popular. That does not diminish the value of the sport.


You’re misunderstanding me. Field archers are world class athletes. Absolutely. Field archery is harder than target archery. 

But field archery isn’t the same as target archery. And target archery is more popular than field archery. So barebow should have a target championships.

This isn’t a discussion about field (which is a longer, more complicated competition with five classes instead of two, and yet seems to happen just fine). World Archery wasn’t voting on field classes (okay, they changed Instinctive to Traditional). This is about World Archery not giving barebow target archers the opportunity to compete at the highest level…because there are too many of us?


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

FerrumVeritas said:


> You’re misunderstanding me. Field archers are world class athletes. Absolutely. Field archery is harder than target archery.
> 
> But field archery isn’t the same as target archery. And target archery is more popular than field archery. So barebow should have a target championships.
> 
> This isn’t a discussion about field (which is a longer, more complicated competition with five classes instead of two, and yet seems to happen just fine). World Archery wasn’t voting on field classes (okay, they changed Instinctive to Traditional). This is about World Archery not giving barebow target archers the opportunity to compete at the highest level…because there are too many of us?


stupidest reason ever. A pure example of elitists finding a way to say no to something that wasn't their idea.


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## rsarns (Sep 23, 2008)

FerrumVeritas said:


> NFAA adopted it for the 2020 season. The Vegas Shoot does not have a championship barebow recurve class (hopefully in 2022). Technically ”Barebow recurve” is just a class during a provisional, trial period of two voting terms.


and discussion is being held to expand to youth. BBR has flights at Vegas. Won’t in 22 either but if numbers continue it will.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

rsarns said:


> and discussion is being held to expand to youth. BBR has flights at Vegas. Won’t in 22 either but if numbers continue it will.


whole lotta compound and OR ppl shttg their pants right now about the bb numbers. LOL I think it's hilarious that they didn't see it.


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## FerrumVeritas (Oct 9, 2020)

limbwalker said:


> whole lotta compound and OR ppl shttg their pants right now about the bb numbers. LOL I think it's hilarious that they didn't see it.


What I just don't get is: who cares?
I wasn't going to shoot compound. Those guys aren't going to shoot barebow. So me shooting barebow just adds numbers to archery. It's a net win. 
Recurve is the most threatened, but not by barebow. If compound was in the Olympics, you'd see recurve numbers plummet after two cycles because fewer young archers would pick up recurve without that exclusive dream. Maybe those that do would choose to shoot barebow then. But probably not. 
Adding barebow doesn't hurt anyone else. 
The logistics are far from insurmountable.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

FerrumVeritas said:


> What I just don't get is: who cares?
> I wasn't going to shoot compound. Those guys aren't going to shoot barebow. So me shooting barebow just adds numbers to archery. It's a net win.
> Recurve is the most threatened, but not by barebow. If compound was in the Olympics, you'd see recurve numbers plummet after two cycles because fewer young archers would pick up recurve without that exclusive dream. Maybe those that do would choose to shoot barebow then. But probably not.
> Adding barebow doesn't hurt anyone else.
> The logistics are far from insurmountable.


Correct. The logistics are far from insurmountable so that leaves only elitist exclusion.


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## woof156 (Apr 3, 2018)

lameduck said:


> I smell politics....Those who make stabilizers, clickers, and sights have to lobby against barebow...because they want to force barebow shooters to transition to Olympic-style equipment (so they continue making money on accessories).
> 
> And some Olympic recurve shooters are switching to barebow, and maybe attracting other OR shooters to do the same.


I think this is part of the problem-- barebow is not as manufacturer friendly as OR. You buy the riser limbs and a few things and you are done. With Olympic there is an endless variety of stabs and sights -- you can watch the Lancaster classic and see the advertizing going on in the shoot offs (hey I love the classic so I don't care)..But still equipement does drive a lot- look at the arguments just over the best arrows. Also OR with sights may be more exciting for non archers to watch cause everyone understands bulls eye and the accuracy is very impressive at 70M. BB missing the BE or a wild shot just might not be as interesting. Oddly some of the fastest recurve growth among archers is in the arena of BB.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

OR is in it's death throes right now. Some people in WA and USArchery are just in denial. 

OR has been pointless for decades.


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## Vittorio (Jul 17, 2003)

A bit more of considerations:
-BB to World Target Championships is in a similar situation to Compound to the Olympic Games. Can happen, but "sometime in the future" only.
-Congress has voted for the first time with more votes from "active" countries, and 27 countries have therefore expressed 4 votes each, so what happened in 2019 (BB outdoor target archery introduced against general expectation) will never happen again.
-Some Asian Nations with huge BB participation have no more than 1 vote
-European Nations have a lot of BB archers, but NGB's are 100% financed by governments because of the Olympic Games, only. No significant money is available or can be spent for other divisions, generally.


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## Hikari (May 15, 2021)

limbwalker said:


> OR is in it's death throes right now. Some people in WA and USArchery are just in denial.
> 
> OR has been pointless for decades.


How is compound and barebow doing in the Olympics? If you want pointless, look at 10m air rifle, an Olympic sport. But it _is_ an Olympic sport. Many national efforts and funding on sports is driven by competitions such as the Olympics. BTW, it was finding Olympic archery that led me to barebow.

When you have limited resources, you need to make choices. Supporting an nation's Olympic goals is pretty much a given. Also supporting the largest area of archery, compound, makes really good sense. Apparently, they felt barebow had not achieved a great enough mass to warrant investment. (Yes, barebow is growing, but that does not mean it is large enough nor has it shown it is here to stay (How many archers that picked up the sport because of Katness Evergreen is still in the sport? Archery can be a fad).) 

But as I pointed out, barebow is supported by WA. There is the Field Championships (and how many of us are supporting and promoting the field discipline?). The US National Open had the division. The division is in the rules. There is just no world target championship. There are also other places for barebow target, Vegas and Lancaster. There are other organizations as well: NFAA and the GB Field Archery organization (and probably a bunch around the world I don't know about).

I know you did not bring this up, but the manufacturer conspiracy (Big Archery) is just not worth considering as an argument.

So what is the way forward, beyond ranting on the internet? Do we take our bows and go home? Do we look at the objections and then try to counter them? Do we actively grow and promote the division? There was always going to be a threshold. The threshold was always going to be too high for those in barebow and too low for those in the other divisions. But trading irrational barbs and insults is not going to be productive.

And as far as barebow being a significant proportion of the archery population, I just don't see it. Yes, you can see some high-profile events, but I have yet to run into another barebow archer IRL. Competitions can give a skewed view of the world as it is may not be representative of the larger population. But it it complicated:you need places to shoot, but it your don't have the number of shooters to support those places, how do you justify the resource in the first place, a catch 22. 

Naturally, the pandemic is the wild card. A lot of event were canceled last year and this. How barebow will survive the pandemic is unknown: see comment above about fads. I would love to start competitions, but I really don't trust the archery community to run safe events. I certainly don't trust fellow archers to take precautions. So I am in a holding pattern for participation until we are out of this pandemic and I am not sure that is happening anytime soon.


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## rsarns (Sep 23, 2008)

Hikari said:


> How is compound and barebow doing in the Olympics? If you want pointless, look at 10m air rifle, an Olympic sport. But it _is_ an Olympic sport. Many national efforts and funding on sports is driven by competitions such as the Olympics. BTW, it was finding Olympic archery that led me to barebow.
> 
> When you have limited resources, you need to make choices. Supporting an nation's Olympic goals is pretty much a given. Also supporting the largest area of archery, compound, makes really good sense. Apparently, they felt barebow had not achieved a great enough mass to warrant investment. (Yes, barebow is growing, but that does not mean it is large enough nor has it shown it is here to stay (How many archers that picked up the sport because of Katness Evergreen is still in the sport? Archery can be a fad).)
> 
> ...


ummm read the ruling. There are too many BB archers which would stress the resources.


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## Hikari (May 15, 2021)

rsarns said:


> ummm read the ruling. There are too many BB archers which would stress the resources.


That is not what the ruling states. The ruling states that the _venue size_ would make championships financially unsustainable because of the inclusion of another division, barebow is incidental as a Trad/Instinctive division could result in the same. This would cause limits placed on who can participate. The ruling states, if they can increase revenues, then they will revisit the motion. WA archery thinks including barebow and then limit all three divisions is not the right decision. I assume they believe impacting the established divisions negatively is not in the interest of simply including a barebow division.

Here again, participants are not necessarily representative of the larger population, which is a different question. How large and sustainable is the barebow population? How much do they contribute to the WA organization? The ruling, BTW, makes no reference of the size of the barebow population. 

Naturally, we could financially support WA so they can run a third division in the World Target Championship. Right now, apparently the current barebow division does not result in enough funds to support it at a championship.


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## rsarns (Sep 23, 2008)

I guess it’s how you read it.
Inclusion of barebow would raise the participation number so high that it would be impossible to find organisers for target World Archery Championships due to necessary venue size.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

rsarns said:


> I guess it’s how you read it.
> Inclusion of barebow would raise the participation number so high that it would be impossible to find organisers for target World Archery Championships due to necessary venue size.


Without MQS.  

Which is exactly what USArchery needs to start doing too.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Hikari said:


> How is compound and barebow doing in the Olympics? If you want pointless, look at 10m air rifle, an Olympic sport. But it _is_ an Olympic sport. Many national efforts and funding on sports is driven by competitions such as the Olympics. BTW, it was finding Olympic archery that led me to barebow.
> 
> When you have limited resources, you need to make choices. Supporting an nation's Olympic goals is pretty much a given. Also supporting the largest area of archery, compound, makes really good sense. Apparently, they felt barebow had not achieved a great enough mass to warrant investment. (Yes, barebow is growing, but that does not mean it is large enough nor has it shown it is here to stay (How many archers that picked up the sport because of Katness Evergreen is still in the sport? Archery can be a fad).)
> 
> ...


You completely missed my point.


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## Hikari (May 15, 2021)

I am starting to realize that people might not understand that WA is an international organization. Some national chapters do have the funds to put on a large championship, but smaller ones may not. By expanding the cost and requirements of world championships, you limit the members that can host one. USA archery did host open national championships with barebow.

This ruling is not against barebow or barebow archers. This is about the mission of WA. Note, this motion was passed by a democratic vote of the membership.


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## Hikari (May 15, 2021)

limbwalker said:


> You completely missed my point.


Or you missed mine...since you did not offer any clarification.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Hikari said:


> I am starting to realize that people might not understand that WA is an international organization. Some national chapters do have the funds to put on a large championship, but smaller ones may not. By expanding the cost and requirements of world championships, you limit the members that can host one. USA archery did host open national championships with barebow.
> 
> This ruling is not against barebow or barebow archers. This is about the mission of WA. Note, this motion was passed by a democratic vote of the membership.


It's the same BS we saw here in the US for decades. Make no mistake.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Hikari said:


> Or you missed mine...since you did not offer any clarification.


Your argument that compound and barebow aren't doing well because they aren't in the Olympic program actually helped illustrate mine.


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## Hikari (May 15, 2021)

limbwalker said:


> It's the same BS we saw here in the US for decades. Make no mistake.


That is the problem with democracy. Other people might have different views.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Hikari said:


> That is the problem with democracy. Other people might have different views.


You know, I'm not in the mood to argue or educate anyone. Early morning and it's gonna be a long day. Maybe later I'll feel like pointing out the flaws in your reasoning.


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## Hikari (May 15, 2021)

limbwalker said:


> Your argument that compound and barebow aren't doing well because they aren't in the Olympic program actually helped illustrate mine.


So, you missed my point. There can actually be more dynamics going on.

The Olympics are a different level of competition, which is usually supported by national grants and support. It is, in policy term, considered a public good. We don't make world-class swimmers because Monday Night Swimming racks in so much money. We support the Olympics and other activities because we think they add other value beyond monetary return. There should be a sport organization support those athletes participating in Olympic competition. If we don't have that support, it will most likely result in the loss of that sport.

My understanding is compound archery is the largest segment of the archery population. This is also important for support of non-profit organizations like WA. This is why compound is in WA events. There is lots of private sector and individual financial support. If you were a compound shooter and you found out that your division would lose opportunities because on the inclusion of a new division in the WA championships, would you support that? Perhaps, but you might find a great deal of opposition too.

Whether we like it or not, barebow has not reached a point where the financial cost is offset by the returns. Now perhaps you can point to the USA and Sweden (the country that brought the motion) and find a strong base, but WA cannot simply support a minority that might harm a majority.


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## Hikari (May 15, 2021)

limbwalker said:


> You know, I'm not in the mood to argue or educate anyone. Early morning and it's gonna be a long day. Maybe later I'll feel like pointing out the flaws in your reasoning.


So, your answer is simply passive-aggressive ad hominem attacks? I am trying to take this conversation seriously. Strange, at AT, I know, but perhaps we can raise to the occasion and apply something more than a reflexive response. Obviously, barebow community is disappointed. I just don't know how to solve a problem without dealing with the complexity of a problem. Cynicism goes so far, no matter how satisfying it feels.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Hikari said:


> So, your answer is simply passive-aggressive ad hominem attacks? I am trying to take this conversation seriously. Strange, at AT, I know, but perhaps we can raise to the occasion and apply something more than a reflexive response. Obviously, barebow community is disappointed. I just don't know how to solve a problem without dealing with the complexity of a problem. Cynicism goes so far, no matter how satisfying it feels.


If you're feeling attacked right now, you need a therapist.

I'm tired. Maybe later.


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## Hikari (May 15, 2021)

limbwalker said:


> If you're feeling attacked right now, you need a therapist.
> 
> I'm tired. Maybe later.


Why the constant attacks? Beyond trying to have a conversation, what exactly am I doing to offend you?


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Hikari said:


> Why the constant attacks? Beyond trying to have a conversation, what exactly am I doing to offend you?


If you think that's an attack, you do need a therapist.

Calm down.

Are you just bored? Maybe go outside and practice.


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## Stash (Jun 1, 2002)

I can understand the reasoning for not including BB at this time. It really does make sense when you consider the logistics.

Looking at the schedule for the WA championships starting this week, we already have a practise day and 6 full competition days, and almost 350 archers registered. Adding another division means another day for the qualifying round, which already takes the whole day, with compound in the morning and recurve in the afternoon. Otherwise, we’d need a field twice as large with twice as many butts so 2 divisions can shoot at the same time. Then another day for the various team matches, and another day for the individual medal rounds. So, at least 3 extra days. Plus additional support staff, or having them work extra long hours into the evening.

Teams travelling together would have lots of archers just sitting around on off days, paying for accommodations and food. More time away from home and work for the team members. Same for the event staff.

Under the current format, this would simply not be workable.

Making 3 divisions manageable would require a much more limited field of athletes for each division, and that leads to having qualifying events like is done for the Olympics.

The only solution I can see that might work is a separate WC for each division on different dates and possibly different locations. 4 day events (practise, ranking round, team eliminations and medals, individual eliminations and medals). But I don’t think that would be an acceptable option to many.


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## FerrumVeritas (Oct 9, 2020)

It’s worth pointing out that there are currently no world wide 50m competitions where barebow is contested. European and possibly Pan-American competitions, but no place where the top shooters can compete against each other.

Field archery participation is a separate issue with a separate set of problems. But it’s a different game. It’s not germane to the discussion. Neither are private indoor shoots, which Lancaster and Vegas technically are. Oh, and flights is not a championship. It’s not recognition. It’s a “okay, we’ll take your money so we have more to give to compound."

If barebow is a target discipline (which it is, as that was decided last time around), then the organization has a responsibility to host competitions for it. That’s the implicit agreement of giving them governance over the rules for it.

Maybe adding barebow to an existing world championship event is too difficult. There needs to be at least one world level barebow target competition, or World Archery is failing at a basic function.


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## BubbaDean1 (Dec 20, 2014)

God forbid World Archery or USA Archery ever drew ASA numbers.


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## FerrumVeritas (Oct 9, 2020)

BubbaDean1 said:


> God forbid World Archery or USA Archery ever drew ASA numbers.


10 participants?


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## Stash (Jun 1, 2002)

Not a valid comparison. World Archery has member NATIONS, not individual members. If you look at the second pic in post #2, you’ll see 400,000 as the number of registered members among the various member associations (MAs). I don’t know how that number compares with ASA, but I suspect it might be a tad higher.


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## rsarns (Sep 23, 2008)

FerrumVeritas said:


> 10 participants?


Even our local ASA qualifiers draw 100-200 shooters. Look at the numbers of the Pro/Am’s. Even during COVID Foley pulled iirc close to 2000 or more.


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## FerrumVeritas (Oct 9, 2020)

rsarns said:


> Even our local ASA qualifiers draw 100-200 shooters. Look at the numbers of the Pro/Am’s. Even during COVID Foley pulled iirc close to 2000 or more.


For barebow? Or are you saying trade one organization that doesn't support the class for another that supports it with even fewer opportunities (and doesn't even offer target options)?


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## Vittorio (Jul 17, 2003)

Stash said:


> ------
> The only solution I can see that might work is a separate WC for each division on different dates and possibly different locations. 4 days events (practice, ranking round, team eliminations and medals, individual eliminations and medals). But I don’t think that would be an acceptable option to many.


Covid 19 competition protocols in Italy require at present 2 m distance for targets to shoot 4 x target AB/CD and 1.3 mt to shoot 2 per target A/D. it means 35 butts on a 70 mt wide-field (standard stadium-size), 140 archers per shooting group, 280 archers /day /division. Before covid, 39 butts possible, so no real change.
Problem was already here for tens of years already, solved adding days to competition and using a qualification process to a closed number, with still all problems related to 2 division competing and 50% of time lost for any archer translated to 100% additional expenses for everyone.
Of course, 100% can't become 150% adding one division, so the logic only existing solution was to split championships by divisions in consecutive days or weekends in same location, or in different places. This year, the Italian BB Target cup (test for future Championship) is running this weekend, the Compound Target Championships will be held on 3 & 4 October and the Recurve Olympic Championships on 8 to 10 October. The solution has already been tested for Indoor Championships with general satisfaction.

Remains a mystery to me why WA is against splitting World championships., but has continued to reduce the number of participants and the length of the competition to resist to the change
For your memory:

2.5 minutes /3 arrows reduced to 2 minutes/3 arrows
4 participants per nation/division/category reduced to 3 only
18-18-12-12-12 arrows eliminations reduced to an average 12
144 arrows 4 distancies qualification reduced to 72 and 1 distance only
call to the line reduced from 20 to 10 seconds
And from this year proposals to congress:

qualification reduced from 72 to 60 arrows (failed)
2 minutes/3 arrows reduced to 1.5 minutes /3 arrows (approved)


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## Seattlepop (Dec 8, 2003)

2 minutes/3 arrows reduced to 1.5 minutes /3 arrows (approved)
When does this take effect? Effective with the next USAA Indoor Championships?


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## Vittorio (Jul 17, 2003)

Seattlepop said:


> 2 minutes/3 arrows reduced to 1.5 minutes /3 arrows (approved)
> When does this take effect? Effective with the next USAA Indoor Championships?


This is the most radical change to shooting rules during qualification rounds happening since tens of years. WA new rules apply from January, 15, 2022 , but each NGB will have to inform associates and implement new rules with proper pre-advice.
My opinion is that this matter has been clearly underestimated in terms of impact on day to day activities worldwide and implications at all levels, from different way of training beginners to reprogramming automatic clocks, down to the terrible disadvantage created to Para archers attending general competitions (para competitions only remain at 2 minutes), not to forget that in theory all world records should be reset as of the reduced shooting time (-25% is a very significant reduction). Needs a separate discussion, for sure.


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## cpcheng (Jan 17, 2009)

Vittorio said:


> This is the most radical change to shooting rules during qualification rounds happening since tens of years. WA new rules apply from January, 15, 2022 , but each NGB will have to inform associates and implement new rules with proper pre-advice.
> My opinion is that this matter has been clearly underestimated in terms of impact on day to day activities worldwide and implications at all levels, from different way of training beginners to reprogramming automatic clocks, down to the terrible disadvantage created to Para archers attending general competitions (para competitions only remain at 2 minutes), not to forget that in theory all world records should be reset as of the reduced shooting time (-25% is a very significant reduction). Needs a separate discussion, for sure.


According to this article from Chris Wells: Congress ratifies new strategic direction for World Archery the votes on this are not binding, as opposed to a motion it seems. My understanding is that this particular rule has not been changed yet but it will be revisited at a later time with support from a majority the votes. What's your insight on this?


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## rsarns (Sep 23, 2008)

FerrumVeritas said:


> For barebow? Or are you saying trade one organization that doesn't support the class for another that supports it with even fewer opportunities (and doesn't even offer target options)?


Total participation numbers. 25-30 BBR. Lots of target options! About 20 different 3D targets! Lol.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

rsarns said:


> Total participation numbers. 25-30 BBR. Lots of target options! About 20 different 3D targets! Lol.


ya but ASA is nothing but blue jean wearing heathens so...


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## "TheBlindArcher" (Jan 27, 2015)

Vittorio said:


> This is the most radical change to shooting rules during qualification rounds happening since tens of years. WA new rules apply from January, 15, 2022 , but each NGB will have to inform associates and implement new rules with proper pre-advice.
> My opinion is that this matter has been clearly underestimated in terms of impact on day to day activities worldwide and implications at all levels, from different way of training beginners to reprogramming automatic clocks, down to the terrible disadvantage created to Para archers attending general competitions (para competitions only remain at 2 minutes), not to forget that in theory all world records should be reset as of the reduced shooting time (-25% is a very significant reduction). Needs a separate discussion, for sure.



This really gets interesting for some indoor events I attend, where the paras shoot in their divisions but right along side able-bodied shooters... So if everyone else gets 1.5min and by the rules I still get 2min, does that mean everyone has to wait for me??? Is the change to increase difficulty, or to reduce event time, because if it's the latter someone didn't think this all the way through.


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## rsarns (Sep 23, 2008)

limbwalker said:


> ya but ASA is nothing but blue jean wearing heathens so...


And camo… OMG. Not camo!!!


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

rsarns said:


> And camo… OMG. Not camo!!!


Anything but that.


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## FerrumVeritas (Oct 9, 2020)

rsarns said:


> Total participation numbers. 25-30 BBR. Lots of target options! About 20 different 3D targets! Lol.


Huh, that’s not what the results show. They show 10.


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## rsarns (Sep 23, 2008)

At which event? Lol. I was at Foley we had 22 or 25.


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## rsarns (Sep 23, 2008)

__





Current Pro/AM Scores


Archery Shooter's Assocation | ASA | The world's premier outdoor 3-D archery federation and tournaments




www.asaarchery.com


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## TER (Jul 5, 2003)

"TheBlindArcher" said:


> This really gets interesting for some indoor events I attend, where the paras shoot in their divisions but right along side able-bodied shooters... So if everyone else gets 1.5min and by the rules I still get 2min, does that mean everyone has to wait for me??? Is the change to increase difficulty, or to reduce event time, because if it's the latter someone didn't think this all the way through.


I believe that reducing event time is the purpose. Having the able-bodied archer's just wait would defeat the purpose of shortening time to 1.5 minutes; that is, shortening the time necessary to shoot events. I'm guessing one way to deal with the time difference is to have para-archers shooting separately in a different range or room. I find this distasteful. I prefer to have para-archers as mixed in as much as possible with able-bodied archers. To be included, so to speak. Vittorio made the important point that this change has several serious implications that have not been considered. I very much agree with you that they failed to make an effort to think this through. Segregating the para-archers would be a really disgusting step backwards. But how else do you run a competition with different shooting time periods? This 30 second difference creates quite the quagmire.


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## "TheBlindArcher" (Jan 27, 2015)

TER said:


> I believe that reducing event time is the purpose. Having the able-bodied archer's just wait would defeat the purpose of shortening time to 1.5 minutes; that is, shortening the time necessary to shoot events. I'm guessing one way to deal with the time difference is to have para-archers shooting separately in a different range or room. I find this distasteful. I prefer to have para-archers as mixed in as much as possible with able-bodied archers. To be included, so to speak. Vittorio made the important point that this change has several serious implications that have not been considered. I very much agree with you that they failed to make an effort to think this through. Segregating the para-archers would be a really disgusting step backwards. But how else do you run a competition with different shooting time periods? This 30 second difference creates quite the quagmire.



Or... You'll just have to wait for me  It will give you time to think about the rights and wrongs of your last end, what you want to concentrate on during the next end, or just get miffed because I'm loosing my last shot 3sec before the b buzzer.

Seriously, I don't think I've been to an event yet with the facilities to put me in another room to shoot.

Side story: My first big VI event was one where we competed one day outdoors and one day indoors. Shot the outdoor first, 6 arrows in 4min no problem. Moved indoors and we got half a day of practice in the morning... Tried once, twice, maybe four times, couldn't get all my arrows off before the buzzer. Thought for sure I had had a stroke or something and was just moving much slower than I thought... Made the comment that dang the clock seemed fast... that's when the person next to me pointed out we were only shooting three arrows in the two minute time limit. :/


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## FerrumVeritas (Oct 9, 2020)

rsarns said:


> At which event? Lol. I was at Foley we had 22 or 25.


My mistake. I see I didn’t use the ASA site correctly. Still, those numbers are much smaller than the turnout for USA Target or Indoor nationals, especially when you consider those events are separated by gender and age.


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## rsarns (Sep 23, 2008)

FerrumVeritas said:


> My mistake. I see I didn’t use the ASA site correctly. Still, those numbers are much smaller than the turnout for USA Target or Indoor nationals, especially when you consider those events are separated by gender and age.


The original point was not BBR numbers but the fact that ASA can put on shoots (very well run and organized) of 2000 to 3000 shooters without an issue. WA is afraid 50-100 maybe BBR archers will be too stressful…. Lol.


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## carlosii (Feb 25, 2007)

rsarns said:


> Total participation numbers. 25-30 BBR. Lots of target options! About 20 different 3D targets! Lol.


Plus 20 or so Trad shooters.


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## carlosii (Feb 25, 2007)

FerrumVeritas said:


> My mistake. I see I didn’t use the ASA site correctly. Still, those numbers are much smaller than the turnout for USA Target or Indoor nationals, especially when you consider those events are separated by gender and age.


As an aside, the numbers in any given ASA class will vary from pro am to pro am, in terms of who the shooters are making up the class. Some will only shoot one or two events while others will try to make everyone. Those competing in the
Traditional class might also be included in the numbers of single string archers.


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## FerrumVeritas (Oct 9, 2020)

When discussing barebow as a class, I don't think the number of trad archers has anything to do with it. Conflating those two is like saying "just shoot against the OR shooters," except that now I have people complaining about what I shoot and how I shoot it. And they have no interest in shooting in the barebow class because they think we're all cheaters. 
Frankly, I think "Trad" is a bs category (that uses very modern bows and arrows, basically all technology from within about a decade of the things they say are too modern), but that's a whole different discussion.


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## "TheBlindArcher" (Jan 27, 2015)

rsarns said:


> The original point was not BBR numbers but the fact that ASA can put on shoots (very well run and organized) of 2000 to 3000 shooters without an issue. WA is afraid 50-100 maybe BBR archers will be too stressful…. Lol.



But is this a fair, apples to apples comparison'; they might be more similar if each ASA shooter shot their whole round at one target, would they then get 2k shooters through efficiently?


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## DERBYBLOOD (Sep 20, 2021)

limbwalker said:


> stupidest reason ever. A pure example of elitists finding a way to say no to something that wasn't their idea.


Just going to have to get out there with 20/8 vision and a barebow and shoot the dang 70 meters with the OR peeps. After sighting in and ranging...its all about holding on point and release. Just gonna have to stand out in a 70 meter lane for fruitless months UNTIL it starts to come in ;-)))


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

DERBYBLOOD said:


> Just going to have to get out there with 20/8 vision and a barebow and shoot the dang 70 meters with the OR peeps. After sighting in and ranging...its all about holding on point and release. Just gonna have to stand out in a 70 meter lane for fruitless months UNTIL it starts to come in ;-)))


Uh no. That's what the elitists want. They want barebow archers to look incapable even though they are not brave enough to try it themselves.


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## lcaillo (Jan 5, 2014)

I don’t think this is about elitism or politics or fear of barebow taking participants from other styles. It is about the lack of vision and leadership that is evident in WA and most of its national member organizations from top to bottom. It is a growth sector of the spot that it is inconvenient and a little more work to support. Too much trouble to look beyond maintaining the status quote. 

With that argument about venues and the inability to see potential solutions like qualifying scores and splitting out barebow to its own event, it tells me that growing the sport is not the priority. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## FerrumVeritas (Oct 9, 2020)

I wonder: is part of the issue with understanding this decision a disconnect between an American perspective and one where countries fund their athletes’ travel to events?

Because it doesn’t really cost the US anything to send another ~18 athletes. But that could be a major expense for Italy or India that would influence their voting decisions.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

lcaillo said:


> I don’t think this is about elitism or politics or fear of barebow taking participants from other styles. It is about the lack of vision and leadership that is evident in WA and most of its national member organizations from top to bottom. It is a growth sector of the spot that it is inconvenient and a little more work to support. Too much trouble to look beyond maintaining the status quote.
> 
> With that argument about venues and the inability to see potential solutions like qualifying scores and splitting out barebow to its own event, it tells me that growing the sport is not the priority.
> 
> ...


It's both. I know it makes some people uncomfortable to call out the elitism that still exists in our sport, but it's real and it needs to be called out. The things I've heard some CEO's, board members and well known coaches say about barebow are unbelievable. Anyone who has shot barebow for any length of time has heard it too.

But you are right. For many it's just a simple resistance to change - which unfortunately is human nature.


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## FerrumVeritas (Oct 9, 2020)

Even on the Easton podcast, they frequently say it’s not that different from recurve. Which tells me they’ve never shot it.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

FerrumVeritas said:


> Even on the Easton podcast, they frequently say it’s not that different from recurve. Which tells me they’ve never shot it.


Correct. But there are a few who get it. The call on the Outdoor Nat's barebow medal matches was well done. 

Sadly, those five rings have some people so hypnotized they won't allow themselves to show respect toward other disciplines.


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## FerrumVeritas (Oct 9, 2020)

limbwalker said:


> Correct. But there are a few who get it. The call on the Outdoor Nat's barebow medal matches was well done.
> 
> Sadly, those five rings have some people so hypnotized they won't allow themselves to show respect toward other disciplines.


The part that got me was GT saying that barebow already had world field and world 3D as premier events: as if recurve and compound aren‘t also there. It is apparently too much to ask that a division given equal weight in the rules actually be treated as such. Heck, that sentiment is echoed by barebow archers here as well, presumably to sound knowledgeable about things they’re not.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

FerrumVeritas said:


> The part that got me was GT saying that barebow already had world field and world 3D as premier events: as if recurve and compound aren‘t also there. It is apparently too much to ask that a division given equal weight in the rules actually be treated as such. Heck, that sentiment is echoed by barebow archers here as well, presumably to sound knowledgeable about things they’re not.


Consider the source and the motivation. There isn't enough money to be made from Barebow archers to pay the bills for those in the industry, or in organizations that rely on those industry's support. Why would anyone in the industry, or an org. that relies on their support, ever promote the lowest-profit form of our sport - even if it is the fastest growing and frankly the most fun.

Elitism and profits/funding have always been behind a lot of the bias against barebow.


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## Rick McKinney (Mar 4, 2008)

John, Maybe you can make a difference if you ran for the Board of US Archery. Just maybe you can see how the workings are for the association. Your accusations of calling US Archery "elitists" is typical for those who think they are in the know and actually being in the know. 

The US has a minimum of 5 organizations for archery: US Archery, NFAA, ASA, IBO, NASP, (plus many fringe organizations including traditional ones). Each of these organizations represent a piece of the archery pie. NFAA was mainly a field archery organization and has morphed into field and indoor "festival" including many, but not all, divisions. ASA represents 3D marked and unmarked distances and 80% of their members are in the Southeast and it virtually is 95+% compound. The IBO is exclusively unmarked and focuses 100% on hunting. NASP is exclusively a Genesis world where millions of kids get an opportunity in school to shoot a very unique style but it is closed looped which essentially means when the kids are finished with high school, they are finished with shooting archery. Less than .00002 ever go on to shooting archery or hunt through this program. The numbers are staggering. However, it is what it is. US Archery has always been about International archery. In other words, an organization that complies with nearly 200 other countries for commonality. This allows for a sound way of choosing a World Champion, Olympic Champion, setting world records that conform to all countries. As World Archery continues to grow (and they will), they will include more and more disciplines and events. Just not at your speed. World Archery slowly made changes over the past 50 years that I have been a part of it. I have watched them include compounds, Juniors, Cadets, Indoor World and watched them ceaselessly make changes with the Field round and here lately they are stepping into the 3D world. The Wheels turn, but they turn very slowly. That wheel has picked up momentum here lately. You can see so many different events at the Olympics where 20 years ago, it was almost impossible to get included into the Olympics as a "new" sport. Anyway, my point is that things change but only at the pace of nearly 200 countries. Hollering, screaming and making petty accusations doesn't move the wheel any faster. It just shows immaturity and naivety. Instead of complaining, which appears to be a popular pastime on AT, you might want to join in and become a board member. Make things happen on the inside and learn what it will take instead of complaining and making accusations. However, I do enjoy reading most of the groups' comments and will just sit back and eat my cheese and crackers....


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Figured that wouldn't take long. 

Why are you feeling accused Rick? I didn't mention any names. Doth thou protest too much?

Rick, most of us have real careers in an actual professions that don't revolve around playing a game. Maybe once I'm done doing important work, I'll consider it in my retirement. Until then, I'll just call it like I see it (and heard it).

I'm not talking about anything I didn't see or hear first-hand. If you want to accuse me of making petty accusations as a way to defend whoever (not sure who you are defending) that's your business. But you don't get to tell me what I saw or heard, plenty of times from the highest positions in the organization. Sorry.

Or maybe you don't realize how involved myself and other barebow advocates (like Barker, Trafford, Kaufold and the Coombs) were in the organization during a time you were busy doing other things? Do you even know that I was the barebow committee chair for USArchery at one time?

Yes, the wheels turn slowly. Especially when it comes to accepting barebow into full participation. And there some reasons for that which include elitism and a lack of support by manufacturers due to the "unprofitable" nature of barebow. I've seen it in traditional archery for 40 years now. Not enough accessories to sell. Barebow archers don't typically fall for the "latest and greatest" marketing hype, etc. On the upside for a guy who sells arrows - I'm surprised you're not overjoyed with the idea that barebow archers might "need" to buy more arrows than those who rely on accessories to keep their arrows on the bale.


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## FerrumVeritas (Oct 9, 2020)

I still don’t understand how WA can “add” barebow to target archery and yet refuse to hold a single target barebow competition.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

FerrumVeritas said:


> I still don’t understand how WA can “add” barebow to target archery and yet refuse to hold a single target barebow competition.


Was there not an indoor barebow event? Maybe I'm remembering that wrong.


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## FerrumVeritas (Oct 9, 2020)

limbwalker said:


> Was there not an indoor barebow event? Maybe I'm remembering that wrong.


They cancelled it. Barebow was supposed to be part of Nimes. It was part of the virtual competition, I guess


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

FerrumVeritas said:


> They cancelled it. Barebow was supposed to be part of Nimes. It was part of the virtual competition, I guess


Alright, I remembered something like that. I have reverted back to shooting a bow with assistance (recurve) for the time being so I'm not paying as much attention as I used to. At least that's a start. I think if WA does include BB into the world champs, that's a reasonable first step. But of course then people will be expecting them to include it in the outdoor world champs, and IMO that's where the real resistance will occur. Eventually they will have to recognize BB in the outdoor world champs tho.


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## Rick McKinney (Mar 4, 2008)

limbwalker said:


> Figured that wouldn't take long.
> 
> Why are you feeling accused Rick? I didn't mention any names. Doth thou protest too much?
> 
> ...


Am I not really protesting, just stating what I see as petty crying on your side. You throw "elitism" as a nasty word and yet you are one. You say that people who make a living in archery doesn't count in the real world. Are you jealous?  I am not defending anyone, just trying to put perspective in your asinine accusations that amount to belly aching and crying. You are good at that when a person doesn't agree with you. Anyway, this is no skin off my back. I served my time with the US Archery Board and World Archery committee and USOC Executive Board as well as several committees, so I get the gist of what they do, how they do it and how long it takes. 
I know this is a losing battle with you , because you have ALWAYS had to have the last word, but I had to defend myself from the likes of you who attack, bully, and accuse with unfounded comments. 
Carry on....


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## Rick McKinney (Mar 4, 2008)

FerrumVeritas said:


> I still don’t understand how WA can “add” barebow to target archery and yet refuse to hold a single target barebow competition.


 That's only the beginning. WA will start that way and eventually, once they figure out how they can include BB into the Championship events with the least amount of resistance and least amount of cost and the least amount of concern from outside influences, they will.


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## DERBYBLOOD (Sep 20, 2021)

limbwalker said:


> Uh no. That's what the elitists want. They want barebow archers to look incapable even though they are not brave enough to try it themselves.


I think it's about the "Benjamins"....IF it were shown the BB shooters could develop into 70 meter "X" shooters through extreme tuning, technique and skill...the market for stabilizers and sites etc, etc...would go away....and OR shooters would only be allowed in the "PARA-Olympics" !!! Bwahahaha


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Rick McKinney said:


> Am I not really protesting, just stating what I see as petty crying on your side. You throw "elitism" as a nasty word and yet you are one. You say that people who make a living in archery doesn't count in the real world. Are you jealous?  I am not defending anyone, just trying to put perspective in your asinine accusations that amount to belly aching and crying. You are good at that when a person doesn't agree with you. Anyway, this is no skin off my back. I served my time with the US Archery Board and World Archery committee and USOC Executive Board as well as several committees, so I get the gist of what they do, how they do it and how long it takes.
> I know this is a losing battle with you , because you have ALWAYS had to have the last word, but I had to defend myself from the likes of you who attack, bully, and accuse with unfounded comments.
> Carry on....


The fact that you insist on being defensive and making everything personal is both telling and disappointing Rick. The forum here deserves better from you to be honest.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

DERBYBLOOD said:


> I think it's about the "Benjamins"....IF it were shown the BB shooters could develop into 70 meter "X" shooters through extreme tuning, technique and skill...the market for stabilizers and sites etc, etc...would go away....and OR shooters would only be allowed in the "PARA-Olympics" !!! Bwahahaha


That's a bit of fantasy to be honest.

What world class barebow archers are already doing at 50m is actually more incredible than what world class recurvers are doing at the Olympics. But a person would have to take barebow seriously and try it themselves before they would understand that.

Since I was accused by a member here, I'll just point out that the same member is on record here on AT several times over of describing barebow as a "starter bow" or fine for "beginners." That should tell folks what they need to know.

It's a narrative that is shared among the full-timers in the sport because they didn't make their name, their living or their "status" within the sport by shooting or coaching or manufacturing barebow archery equipment. And why would they? That has never been where the status or the money is.

So this surge in popularity of barebow has to be hard for them and naturally, they get defensive. Not hard to put it all together really. Me calling a spade a spade doesn't make it any easier for them, but I've never been one to "not poke the bear" either.

Frankly, it wouldn't be that hard for WA to simply say "yes, barebow's time has finally arrived and we should do all we can to fully include them in championship events." And then find a way to do that.

But as the late, great Tom Barker used to always say, some people just enjoy telling others "no" instead of "yes" being their default answer, and then finding a way to make things work.


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## Rick McKinney (Mar 4, 2008)

limbwalker said:


> The fact that you insist on being defensive and making everything personal is both telling and disappointing Rick. The forum here deserves better from you to be honest.


John, Every action gets a reaction. I am only responding to your comments that appear to be condescending, just as "I have a real job with meaning, while you have a useless job in archery or anyone who spends more time than me in archery is wasting time and not putting it to good use." Calling people elitists constantly and yet, that word is used only to incite. You continue to state you have facts and yet, you have comments from those who may have said things in jest or maybe it was their true feelings. I heard comments from "useless" archery people that was shocking but I also know that just because they say it, doesn't always mean they mean it. 
Word....


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Rick McKinney said:


> John, Every action gets a reaction. I am only responding to your comments that appear to be condescending, just as "I have a real job with meaning, while you have a useless job in archery or anyone who spends more time than me in archery is wasting time and not putting it to good use." Calling people elitists constantly and yet, that word is used only to incite. You continue to state you have facts and yet, you have comments from those who may have said things in jest or maybe it was their true feelings. I heard comments from "useless" archery people that was shocking but I also know that just because they say it, doesn't always mean they mean it.
> Word....


I'm sorry if I view archery as a game. To the VAST majority of archers, that is exactly what it is. A game we play to distract ourselves from the more important work we do during the week. It is what it is. Try not to take it personally.

You're right about my use of the word elitist. I will refrain from using that term. It's actually not the best term to use. What I should be saying is "full timers" in the industry - i.e. people who make their living from archery. While it undoubtedly provides valuable insight, it also produces a bias that cannot be ignored.


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## Rick McKinney (Mar 4, 2008)

limbwalker said:


> That's a bit of fantasy to be honest.
> 
> What world class barebow archers are already doing at 50m is actually more incredible than what world class recurvers are doing at the Olympics. But a person would have to take barebow seriously and try it themselves before they would understand that.
> 
> ...


Sigh...causing me to defend myself because you continue to pretend the elites are bad people and yet you are still one....You never defended this, just ignored it like it will just go away and people will not see that you are an elite. (Well it looks like you corrected this so good on you!) You pointed out that "a member here, ....describing barebow as a 'starter bow' for beginners...." Really John? How about, this scenario, We start all archers in barebow and get their form set so they can get really good at barebow but if they choose to go recurve or compound they have a good basis of form. It appears to me, barebow gets first crack at getting lots of people, but you don't look at it that way because it doesn't serve your agenda....I currently have about 50 kids in my JOAD program. The numbers are: 5 compound, 4 genesis, 16 recurve, 24 barebow. There is no effort to force kids to go any direction they do not want to go. I let them decide. Your comment about, "What world class barebow archers are already doing at 50m is actually more incredible than what world class recurvers are doing at the Olympics." tells me and others a lot. I presume this is your opinion and not fact. You point out that people need to try it and find out how difficult it is. Why don't you pick up a compound and find out how difficult that is? Try it, you just might respect those archers who hardly ever miss. Each discipline requires a major amount of effort and saying one is better than the other is plain crazy. I get it, you love BB, just like I love recurve and Reo loves compound. 

You keep talking about massive growth in barebow. Can you point me to the location of these facts and figures? I know you don't have a lot of time since you have a very important job and probably barely have time to respond to comments on AT, but please give me some facts. I believe crossbows are the fastest growing part of our sport. This is from the archery industry and the dealers really complain about crossbow sales because there is hardly any accessory sale attached to it. Most crossbows come complete, thus it is a one time sale. 
Last...


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

You do get plenty defensive. But you're right. I have an important presentation I should be preparing for right now. I am glad to know you have so many barebow archers in the club. Sounds like you answered your own question.


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## Rick McKinney (Mar 4, 2008)

limbwalker said:


> You do get plenty defensive. But you're right. I have an important presentation I should be preparing for right now. I am glad to know you have so many barebow archers in the club. Sounds like you answered your own question.


Last Word....


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## Stash (Jun 1, 2002)

Can you two guys please can it? I don’t want this thread to disappear like the other one because of personal attacks. Maybe take it to A&E if you must continue? 😄


John - you used the phrase “surge in popularity of barebow”. Do you know what the numbers look like in countries other than the USA?

We just had our outdoor target championships in Ontario last weekend, had a total of 6 barebow archers attend (2 Master, 2 adult, 2 kids, across 4 age/gender divisions). Not what I would call a “surge”. Does the increase in numbers of Barebow target archers in other countries compare with that in the US?

I would note that compound target archery in the US (indoors) started to boom in the mid ‘70s, but compound wasn’t added to the FITA (WA) outdoor championships until 1995. As Rick says, the wheels turn slowly, but they do turn.


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## Seattlepop (Dec 8, 2003)

I was somewhat surprised when I learned skateboard made the Olympics. Then I searched for skateboard parks. In Seattle city limits alone, there are five skateboard parks. Archery ranges? Zip.

Relevance? I don't know, just found it interesting.


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## FerrumVeritas (Oct 9, 2020)

Rick McKinney said:


> You keep talking about massive growth in barebow. Can you point me to the location of these facts and figures?


As someone who has been a part of the "massive growth," and thinks that it's worth recognizing the incredible work that John Demmer, John Wert, Rick Stonebraker, Fawn Gerard, and a bunch of others who I'm sorry I can't name off the top of my head have done to facilitate this growth in barebow. So while I'd rather not argue with you, I'll instead provide the data that I'm aware of. Admittedly, these numbers are US based. 

In 2020 Lancaster had 61 women and an incredible 189 men shoot barebow. Compare this to 2015, which had 40 combined, and 51 in 2017. 2018 had 125 combined. The data for 2019 seems to be missing, but as far as I can tell the division has grown considerably every year. 

2020 was the second time BBR flights were in the Vegas Shoot. It had 222 competitors. The year before, it had 149. Many of those archers did shoot in the BB class in 2018, which totaled only 89 people. 

USA Archery has changed the Indoor format too frequently and too recently to get hard numbers easily. And 2020 is a weird year after March. But in 2019 barebow had 15 women and 25 men at Target Nationals. This year, you had 18 and 39. That's not huge growth, but it's still significant following a pandemic. And that's just senior. Masters went from 10 women and 25 men to 14 women and 32 men. 

These are championship or prestige events that are expensive to travel to and attend, and they're seeing growth after or during a major economic slump. I'll leave it to you to compare it to total event size and find out how much barebow deviated from it on a percentage basis.


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## Stash (Jun 1, 2002)

You keep referencing US events, but this thread is about World Archery. What are the Barebow numbers worldwide? They’re never going to add an event that is only significant in one country.


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## "TheBlindArcher" (Jan 27, 2015)

Stash said:


> You keep referencing US events, but this thread is about World Archery. What are the Barebow numbers worldwide? They’re never going to add an event that is only significant in one country.


Dipping a toe in these waters ever so timidly, but I imagine Sweeden has a strong BB population as they did submit the proposal, and I think Italy was pretty dominate in the recent European Fields, which means nothing other than they may have a large pool of Beers to draw talent from. No numbers or real evidence here, just guesses.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Stash scolds me for defending myself after being personally called out, and then asks me to defend my statement? LOL

That's kinda funny really.

Carry on.

BTW, I nailed the presentation and just got home from actual work 15 min. ago. Thanks for asking.


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## Arcus (Jul 7, 2005)

Rick McKinney said:


> Hollering, screaming and making petty accusations...immaturity and naivety.





Rick McKinney said:


> ...petty crying...asinine accusations...belly aching and crying... attack, bully


Disappointing.


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## carlosii (Feb 25, 2007)

I don't want to be a member of an organization that doesn't want me as a member.


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## >--gt--> (Jul 1, 2002)

carlosii said:


> I don't want to be a member of an organization that doesn't want me as a member.


What organization are you referring to? 

If you mean WA:

You are not a direct member of World Archery, USA Archery is a member organization. Being a USAA member does not make you a WA member, it simply makes you eligible to participate in USAA events sanctioned by either USAA, or WA.


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## Stash (Jun 1, 2002)

limbwalker, I’m scolding both of you for violating the forum rules against personal attacks.

I merely asked a simple question, still haven’t heard an answer. Please don’t imagine an accusatory tone to it that isn’t there. Are the Barebow numbers in other WA member associations rising comparably to those in the US? 

And besides, what’s improper about asking someone to defend a statement?


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## Humphrey (May 11, 2021)

rharper said:


> From Barebow Project:
> In a decision by World Archery upon a motion to add World Championship for Barebow analogous to the recurve and compound divisions.
> “Target Archery Committee:
> Inclusion of barebow would raise the participation number so high that it would be impossible to find organisers for target World Archery Championships due to necessary venue size. If this motion is accepted, it would result in setting a participation limit for every category (including for recurve and compound). Or would be leading to an extension of the event programme which would significantly raise the price of participation for all teams.
> ...


Not allowing it because it would be too popular seems like a hella strange argument.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Stash said:


> limbwalker, I’m scolding both of you for violating the forum rules against personal attacks.
> 
> I merely asked a simple question, still haven’t heard an answer. Please don’t imagine an accusatory tone to it that isn’t there. Are the Barebow numbers in other WA member associations rising comparably to those in the US?
> 
> And besides, what’s improper about asking someone to defend a statement?


Please quote my personal attack. I'll wait.


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## >--gt--> (Jul 1, 2002)

Humphrey said:


> Not allowing it because it would be too popular seems like a hella strange argument.


It would be indeed, if that were true. It is not true.


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## FerrumVeritas (Oct 9, 2020)

Stash said:


> You keep referencing US events, but this thread is about World Archery. What are the Barebow numbers worldwide? They’re never going to add an event that is only significant in one country.


I don't know Stash, but I suspect that you have just as much ability to look it up as I do.
The Roma cup has stable, solid attendence for both the primary and secondary events. Barebow in Italy and Sweden may not be growing like it is here, but it's already popular and healthy. Australia admittedly looks light, as does Canada. 
Many member orgs didn't add barebow to their competitions until 2019, and then the pandemic meant cancelled or reduced competitions in 2020.


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## Stash (Jun 1, 2002)

My intent was to suggest a reason other than “elitism” for the WA to decline to include Barebow in the world target championships.

Perhaps, rather than some “conspiracy” against the discipline, it’s simply nothing more sinister than that the level of interest internationally isn’t sufficient to warrant it at this time? I simply asked if anyone had done the research and the information on hand about Barebow target participation numbers in countries other than the US, in order to support their argument against the WA decision.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Stash said:


> My intent was to suggest a reason other than “elitism” for the WA to decline to include Barebow in the world target championships.
> 
> Perhaps, rather than some “conspiracy” against the discipline, it’s simply nothing more sinister than that the level of interest internationally isn’t sufficient to warrant it at this time? I simply asked if anyone had done the research and the information on hand about Barebow target participation numbers in countries other than the US, in order to support their argument against the WA decision.


People who don't believe there has been active resistance and even interference with the progress and inclusion of barebow archers clearly have never tried to seriously compete with a barebow. They also must not pay attention when some influential members of the archery organization make snide remarks about barebow archers, or just dismiss them outright. 

If you think these are just "conspiracy theories" you are clearly disengaged and underinformed.

I have no problem if someone doesn't give a crap about barebow. What I have a problem with are the things I've seen and heard first hand opposing barebow. Anyone who has competed in the barebow discipline for any length of time, and has any sense of awareness at all knows exactly what I'm talking about.

Stash, you and Rick are actually making a bigger deal of this than it needs to be by actively denying that it happens.


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## Stash (Jun 1, 2002)

Where have I “denied it happened” or indicated that I “didn’t give a crap about barebow”? No, I haven’t shot much or competed any Barebow (in the sense that we’re talking about), but have shot lots of, and now exclusively, “trad”. My only purpose in participating in this thread is to respond to the topic at hand, Barebow being denied inclusion in the WC Target champs. I think there is merit in finding the real reasons, and not simply assuming it is due to some bias (actual or inferred) on the part of officials or manufacturers, as has been alleged by some. 

I and others have described some of the logistical obstacles involved with the expansion of a WC target event. 

I’m still interested in hearing numbers regarding Barebow participation in target events in countries other than the US, to see if there is an actual widespread international demand for this. There are 50+ member nations participating in the WC that just started a few minutes ago. What are the BB numbers in India, China, Kazakhstan, Colombia, Russia, Japan? What's the point of a “World Championship” where 90% of the participation in the sport is from a single country?


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Stash said:


> Where have I “denied it happened” or indicated that I “didn’t give a crap about barebow”? No, I haven’t shot much or competed any Barebow (in the sense that we’re talking about), but have done and now exclusively shoot “trad”. My only purpose in participating in this thread is to respond to the topic at hand, Barebow denied inclusion in the WC Target champs. I think there is merit in finding the real reason, and not simply assuming it is due to some unsubstantiated bias on the part of officials or manufacturers, as has been alleged by some.
> 
> Still interested in hearing numbers regarding Barebow participation in target events in countries other than the US. There are 50+ member nations participating in the WC that just started a few minutes ago. What are the BB numbers in India, China, Kazakhstan, Colombia, Russia, Japan? What's the point of a “World Championship” where 90% of the participation in the sport is from a single country?


Still interested in you providing a quote of mine that violated forum rules. I suppose we'll just keep waiting on each other then.

Your denial or disbelief is evidenced by you repeatedly asking to be "shown" (as if it's our job to provide readily available data to you) proof. 

It sounds like Canada is about 20 years behind where the US is. It's coming. And then the wailing and grinding of teeth among the recurve crowd will be heard, just as it was here.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

The real irony here for this thread is that I haven't competed in the barebow division in six years, and have been actively competing with the OR for the past two. I have a state event this weekend in masters OR in fact. It's kinda hilarious to be accused of being "a recurve guy" by one crowd and a "barebow activist" by the other when all I do is shoot whatever I feel like at the time. It's almost as if a person isn't allowed to be proficient with and an advocate for both disciplines in some people's minds. Maybe I should just forego the target gear altogether and go back to being "just a trad guy" like I was in '03. That surely would simplify my life.  If my string fingers get any worse, I might just do as someone suggested and give compound a try, although I'd probably just go play golf if it ever came to that.


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## FerrumVeritas (Oct 9, 2020)

For what it’s worth, every reason I’ve listed has come from either the target committee’s official statement or statements made on the Easton podcast. They’re public. I think it’s reasonable to call GT an influential member of the archery community.


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## Rick McKinney (Mar 4, 2008)

The US voted for BB at the World Target Championships....


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## "TheBlindArcher" (Jan 27, 2015)

The flavor of the conversation seems to be "WA refused..." but wasn't this a general assembly vote; over half the votes were against inclusion at this time, for whatever their reasons over a hundred votes were cast against it for whatever reason these countries didn't see enough reward for the investment at this time... Democracy sometimes leaves a bitter taste when your cause is in the minority. 

I'm not unsympathetic, the VIs, while we don't have the growth or numbers, are also the exception to full inclusion , and we even get this from the very committees that are supposed to represent our interests. Time to stop ranting about it, and start doing something about it... Seek out and support your supporters\s; show up at events even, and especially, that don't have BB classes... Contact organizers early enough and they add it, they've taken notice; they don't add it then shoot the next closet class- You may get stomped, but people will see you there, competing inspire of any condemnations or animosity; show others you are willing to be there despite their lack of support; show you do it because you like it. 

Every time I have a VI issues complaint, I also ask my self what I did today to make our situation better; Did I write my letters expressing my positions in regards to decisions; Did I get out there and make myself seen/known; Did I show appreciation to those who addressed my issues, corrected a VI oversight, thank an organizer for including me, regardless of whether I got the VI class or competed with the general groups; Did I offer or try to help out when opportunity showed itself? One thing I've picked up competing in archery as a VI, no one is going to give it to me- I have to put in the work in hopes of facilitating acceptance and change. 

Just curious, is there a list of votes on the decision... Did for example the US vote in favor of or against the proposal... The change has to start within.


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## FerrumVeritas (Oct 9, 2020)

Rick McKinney said:


> The US voted for BB at the World Target Championships....


Is the vote breakdown public and available somewhere?


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

"TheBlindArcher" said:


> The flavor of the conversation seems to be "WA refused..." but wasn't this a general assembly vote; over half the votes were against inclusion at this time, for whatever their reasons over a hundred votes were cast against it for whatever reason these countries didn't see enough reward for the investment at this time... Democracy sometimes leaves a bitter taste when your cause is in the minority.
> 
> I'm not unsympathetic, the VIs, while we don't have the growth or numbers, are also the exception to full inclusion , and we even get this from the very committees that are supposed to represent our interests. Time to stop ranting about it, and start doing something about it... Seek out and support your supporters\s; show up at events even, and especially, that don't have BB classes... Contact organizers early enough and they add it, they've taken notice; they don't add it then shoot the next closet class- You may get stomped, but people will see you there, competing inspire of any condemnations or animosity; show others you are willing to be there despite their lack of support; show you do it because you like it.
> 
> ...


Democracy leaves an even more bitter taste when there are some in the majority who are actively working against fellow archers because they look down their noses at the style they shoot. It's not as bad as it used to be, thankfully, but it still remains. I have no issue with being in the minority. I have an issue with people in influential positions actively working to suppress the minority. 

The late Tom Barker had a saying he is now famous for here in Texas - "Archery is for everyone, no exceptions." He worked for inclusion, not exclusion. I wish everyone in the sport saw it that way. 

Change is hard. Inclusion, at first, can be hard. Dealing with the unknown, is hard. But it can and should be done.

The barebow wave is here, at least in Europe and the U.S., and it will keep growing. Full inclusion into all WA championship events is only a matter of time IMO. I also see a time in the not too distant future when the Olympic recurve dies a slow death. In 40 years I'll probably have to explain to my great grandkids why we still shot obsolete target bows in the Olympics in 2004. LOL "because they were state of the art in 1967 dear, that's why..." LOL


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## FerrumVeritas (Oct 9, 2020)

Maybe this is a chicken/egg argument, but I suspect that more countries, especially less wealthy ones, would select a barebow team if it meant a chance at being World Champion. It having a ceiling right now may be suppressing interest. I don’t know, because I haven’t looked at the numbers.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

FerrumVeritas said:


> Maybe this is a chicken/egg argument, but I suspect that more countries, especially less wealthy ones, would select a barebow team if it meant a chance at being World Champion. It having a ceiling right now may be suppressing interest. I don’t know, because I haven’t looked at the numbers.


That is exactly what this is. If the Olympic bow changed to the compound, or to barebow, exactly how much interest would we see around the world in shooting antiquated target recurves with sights and stabilizers? Not much. There would be a few "hangers on" for old times sake, but not many.


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## Stash (Jun 1, 2002)

limbwalker said:


> If the Olympic bow changed to the compound, or to barebow, exactly how much interest would we see around the world in shooting antiquated target recurves with sights and stabilizers? Not much. There would be a few "hangers on" for old times sake, but not many.


I’m not sure that the Olympics really work that way. Note, “Olympics”, not “World Championships”.

Many, many Olympic sports have next to no correlation to general public participation, and yet have endured as Olympic sports for decades. When’s the last time any of us luged, modern pentathloned, javelined, rowed a boat with 7 other guys with a little guy yelling at us, put a shot or walked quickly for 50 kilometres? Or even saw anyone doing any of these recreationally, like we do archery and other sports? Sure, there are many Olympic sports that people do for fun, but my point is that there are many that just aren’t big participation sports, yet remain as Olympic events with no indication they are on the way out.

Another matter that might deserve some consideration - there aren’t many Olympic sports that have several different ways to do pretty much the same thing, some of which will (if I may use the word without prejudice) produce an “inferior” result. Swimming is one, where backstroke, breast stroke, butterfly are decidedly slower than freestyle. But how many others? I understand race walking is now out.

So for that reason I find it difficult the believe that there would be any consideration given to converting from sighted to unsighted archery. I don’t discount a possible future switch to compound, though. Again, I’m talking Olympics, not World Championships.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Stash said:


> I’m not sure that’s a
> 
> I’m not sure that the Olympics really work that way. Note, “Olympics”, not “World Championships”.
> 
> ...


I agree with what you wrote, but that is beside the point I was making.

Still waiting for that quote btw.


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## Rick McKinney (Mar 4, 2008)

So, according to your statement, John, or question, "If the Olympic Bow changed to the compound, or to barebow, exactly how much interest would we see around the world in shooting antiquated target recurves with sights and Stabilizers?" Barebow didn't die when recurve (with sights and stabilizers) grew in popularity. It definitely dropped down somewhat but it didn't die. Recurve archery will not die, although your opinion differs far from what mine is. Compounds haven't died even though they are not in the Olympics. Most people shoot the style they enjoy, not because it is in the Olympics. I know I am beating a dead horse because you just can't see beyond your own belief system. Just one more question, John. Why do you hate recurve archery so much. You state several times that it will die if it gets pushed, shoved, or dropped from the Olympics. You accuse them of being "elitists". The recurve is "antiquated" according to you. Barebow is a discipline that is enjoyed by many, just like other disciplines, like Genisis, Traditional, Crossbow, etc. However, Asia, South and Central America, Africa and several parts of Europe are not interested in this discipline. Maybe you and others can go on a mission and introduce it to those countries who are not familiar or not interested in it. You can even push the idea that it is far cheaper since you don't have to buy sights and stabilizers.


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## FerrumVeritas (Oct 9, 2020)

Mexico was well represented at the Pan Am games (which the US and Canada did not send BB to). Granted, they hosted, but it shows at least some interest there.
Most national orgs follow WA’s lead though, and have only added target barebow since 2019’s congress.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Rick McKinney said:


> So, according to your statement, John, or question, "If the Olympic Bow changed to the compound, or to barebow, exactly how much interest would we see around the world in shooting antiquated target recurves with sights and Stabilizers?" Barebow didn't die when recurve (with sights and stabilizers) grew in popularity. It definitely dropped down somewhat but it didn't die. Recurve archery will not die, although your opinion differs far from what mine is. Compounds haven't died even though they are not in the Olympics. Most people shoot the style they enjoy, not because it is in the Olympics. I know I am beating a dead horse because you just can't see beyond your own belief system. Just one more question, John. *Why do you hate recurve archery so much*. You state several times that it will die if it gets pushed, shoved, or dropped from the Olympics. You accuse them of being "elitists". The recurve is "antiquated" according to you. Barebow is a discipline that is enjoyed by many, just like other disciplines, like Genisis, Traditional, Crossbow, etc. However, Asia, South and Central America, Africa and several parts of Europe are not interested in this discipline. Maybe you and others can go on a mission and introduce it to those countries who are not familiar or not interested in it. You can even push the idea that it is far cheaper since you don't have to buy sights and stabilizers.


I won't even dignify that ridiculous question with a response Rick. You asked it to incite me and you know it isn't true. Quit obsessing over my opinions Rick. It's unbecoming of someone of your position in the sport.


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## DERBYBLOOD (Sep 20, 2021)

limbwalker said:


> That's a bit of fantasy to be honest.
> 
> What world class barebow archers are already doing at 50m is actually more incredible than what world class recurvers are doing at the Olympics. But a person would have to take barebow seriously and try it themselves before they would understand that.
> 
> ...


I hear ya...I watched the Nationals? in Richmond, VA and was totally blown away by some of the 50 meter shots that little Claire Xie was making...I believe coach Stonebraker got her into some "McKinney II's" (which should make Mr. Rick proud 

Ever since Richard Barker won the BB at Lancaster back iiiiinnn 2017? I've been hooked! I have ALSO become fanatically hooked on tuning !!! Maniacally, TOTAL OCD, in fact I am to the point I don't want to shoot ANYTHING that is fletched UNTIL my bar shafts are flying perfect! 

I am pretty well versed in the names of the top BB shooters, in both the USA and Internationally....and I DO enjoy watching OR and all of those top shooters....being a "sponge" for ANYTHING I can pick up from MANY disciplines of the sport!  I am am beyond THRILLED to find all you archery Gods here on Archery talk, accessible for questions! 

I took your CX spine chart and compared it to the last commercial chart...and yup...they're different all right!
From YOUR chart you, had an actual student shoot the CX NPX 400's @ 32" in the 48lbs. bracket, yes?

I have been watching a lot of Jake Kaminski YouTube cause Jake has a mechanical/engineers mind and I love how he drills down into tuning and the equipment and explains it all so clearly especially for people new to hyper-performance tuning.

I would love to find out how you and Rick calculate draw length...Listening to Jake...HE marks it off, not at the front of the riser at full draw (like all internet diagrams show), but he marks it at the Beiter Button.


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## Rick McKinney (Mar 4, 2008)

Annnddd again, you don't answer any of my questions.....this is getting really sad on your part John. You have refused virtually anyone else's take on this situation and when they ask a question, you end up using excuses by not "dignifying" yourself (elitist?) or you have more important things to do than answer. Sigh.... Stash, good luck in trying to get answers.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

DERBYBLOOD said:


> I hear ya...I watched the Nationals? in Richmond, VA and was totally blown away by some of the 50 meter shots that little Claire Xie was making...I believe coach Stonebraker got her into some "McKinney II's" (which should make Mr. Rick proud
> 
> Ever since Richard Barker won the BB at Lancaster back iiiiinnn 2017? I've been hooked! I have ALSO become fanatically hooked on tuning !!! Maniacally, TOTAL OCD, in fact I am to the point I don't want to shoot ANYTHING that is fletched UNTIL my bar shafts are flying perfect!
> 
> ...


Richard's victory at Lancasters was epic. I think it inspired a lot of people to be honest. I know I was inspired. 

Regarding the CX chart, the "student" that shot NPX 400's @32 in the 48# bracket was me. That's what I shot at the time I was building that chart. 

Jake is good for the sport. He's always been a critical thinker when it comes to gear and I have always appreciated that about him. He's also a risk taker and the sport needs more of those.

AMO draw length is the pivot point + 1 3/4" This is well documented. Measuring DL at the button is not any industry standard that I'm aware of, although it could be. However it is not the standard I learned or use.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Rick McKinney said:


> Annnddd again, you don't answer any of my questions.....this is getting really sad on your part John. You have refused virtually anyone else's take on this situation and when they ask a question, you end up using excuses by not "dignifying" yourself (elitist?) or you have more important things to do than answer. Sigh.... Stash, good luck in trying to get answers.


you're starting to sound like Viper, having to respond to and disagree with everything I write. I'm just one member on an online archery forum, and it's just my opinion. Just let it go.


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## DERBYBLOOD (Sep 20, 2021)

limbwalker said:


> Richard's victory at Lancasters was epic. I think it inspired a lot of people to be honest. I know I was inspired.
> 
> Regarding the CX chart, the "student" that shot NPX 400's @32 in the 48# bracket was me. That's what I shot at the time I was building that chart.
> 
> ...


OK you lost me at "pivot point"...are you refering to the torque pivot point of the grip i.e. thinnest of the throat?


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

DERBYBLOOD said:


> OK you lost me at "pivot point"...are you refering to the torque pivot point of the grip i.e. thinnest of the throat?


Yes.

Pg. 11 



http://peteward.com/AMOStandards.pdf


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## Rick McKinney (Mar 4, 2008)

limbwalker said:


> Just let it go.


Done!


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Incidentally, I had a lot fewer than 24 barebow archers in my club (granted it's a town of 3600 people in a county of 11k) but I made sure those barebow archers saw me actively practicing and competing in the barebow discipline so they would know I took it seriously and actually knew something about what I was teaching. Once several of my barebow students went on to win nationals and then make world championship teams, I trained and certified them as coaches and then went back to shooting recurve because I'm a better recurve shooter than I am a barebow shooter. I'm a trad/barebow archer at heart, but recurve is less stressful (i.e. easier) for me because of the clicker, and I can be more competitive in that discipline without sacrificing all my other interests.

So even though I mainly compete with the recurve these days, I made sure I put in some serious years with the barebow while I was coaching and training barebow archers in my club. I felt I owed them that. I think the plan worked out okay.

During those years I was training and competing in barebow, I watched USArchery finally accept the idea of having a barebow division at nationals. This was largely due to years of work by folks like Skip Trafford, Tom Barker, Rob Kaufhold, the Coombes and others, but credit should be given (I feel) to archers like Mark Applegate, Ty Pelfry and Alan Eagleton for shooting in USArchery events and shooting at an internationally competitive level. It was Mark and Ty who first impressed me with what can be done with a barebow. Sadly most barebow archers today don't even know who they are but they carried the water for barebow archers within the NAA and later USArchery for a long time.

Most barebow archers also don't know how pivotal Brady Ellison was in the inclusion of barebow into nationals either. It was at a membership meeting during Outdoor Nationals in Ohio that many of us coaches and archers were questioning Denise about when barebow would finally be included in nationals. She was giving all the stock, dismissive, "be patient" answers when next to her, Brady (then the athlete rep. on the board) spoke up in support of barebow. Anyone who was there could tell you the whole tone in the room changed when he did that. And it wasn't long after that meeting that Denise asked Liz Coombe and then later myself to chair the USArchery barebow committee, specifically to help USArchery determine the proper format for barebow at Outdoor Nationals.

I write all this not to blow my own horn - I had very little to do with the inclusion and growth of barebow - but rather to give some folks here who don't know the back story, some perspective on where we've been with barebow in the US.

IMO every barebow archer who ever shoots Outdoor Nationals should find Brady, shake his hand and thank him for speaking up on behalf of barebow archers participating in Outdoor Nationals. I'm pretty sure if he hadn't spoken up the way he did (so publicly) when he did, nothing would have changed for who knows how long. There was a VERY strong "barebow belongs in field (and nowhere else)" attitude in the sport for a long time. Field was always the excuse used to exclude barebow from indoor and outdoor nationals.

When I won the 1st 60M event at Outdoor Nationals in the barebow division in 2015, Brady was one of the first to congratulate me. He was happy to see barebow archers included. This is a little-known fact about Brady that more barebow archers should be aware of.


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## DERBYBLOOD (Sep 20, 2021)

limbwalker said:


> Yes.
> 
> Pg. 11
> 
> ...


Thank you...very interesting...I have a W&W Nano TFT riser...according to these listed AMO DL standards...the center of the Beiter is approximate 1/8" forward of the grip PP...so not really all that "off" from each other... I think Jake might have been talking about measuring DL FROM the plunger when he was covering arrow shaft "harmonics" and explaining the shaft "nodes" and HOW to locate them.

I ran across one "traditional" DL chart that said I should have a DL of 30.5" ONLY if I was 6'4" tall !!! I said well that doesn't make sense...as when I am at FD with my BB anchor (cheek bone) my DL is 30.5" and I'm 6'0" tall...

I would be very interested in your experienced knowledge / take on / tested opinion of which CX NPX shaft spine I should initially buy IF I am pulling at FD 48 lbs. DL roughly 30.5" (right now that is my arrow length cut...30.5" from nock valley to cut)....including a pic of FD anchor with th Easton measure shaft ;-)


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## FerrumVeritas (Oct 9, 2020)

DERBYBLOOD said:


> Thank you...very interesting...I have a W&W Nano TFT riser...according to these listed AMO DL standards...the center of the Beiter is approximate 1/8" forward of the grip PP...so not really all that "off" from each other... I think Jake might have been talking about measuring DL FROM the plunger when he was covering arrow shaft "harmonics" and explaining the shaft "nodes" and HOW to locate them.
> 
> I ran across one "traditional" DL chart that said I should have a DL of 30.5" ONLY if I was 6'4" tall !!! I said well that doesn't make sense...as when I am at FD with my BB anchor (cheek bone) my DL is 30.5" and I'm 6'0" tall...
> 
> I would be very interested in your experienced knowledge / take on / tested opinion of which CX NPX shaft spine I should initially buy IF I am pulling at FD 48 lbs. DL roughly 30.5" (right now that is my arrow length cut...30.5" from nock valley to cut)....including a pic of FD anchor with th Easton measure shaft ;-)


If you’re only talking to one person, could you send a PM? Or at least start a new thread, as your personal setup has nothing to do with the topic.


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## DERBYBLOOD (Sep 20, 2021)

FerrumVeritas said:


> If you’re only talking to one person, could you send a PM? Or at least start a new thread, as your personal setup has nothing to do with the topic.



I am VERY sorry....I am new to the site use...and I do not know HOW to actually DO some things, so please forgive me. I roll the cursor over a name and it DOES give a "message" option...but even THEN I do not know if THAT will produce a public thread OR a PM to the member......HELP WITH THAT PLEASE ))


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

DERBYBLOOD said:


> I am VERY sorry....I am new to the site use...and I do not know HOW to actually DO some things, so please forgive me. I roll the cursor over a name and it DOES give a "message" option...but even THEN I do not know if THAT will produce a public thread OR a PM to the member......HELP WITH THAT PLEASE ))


Just start a new thread with your specific question(s). Chances are if you have them, so does someone else.


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## DERBYBLOOD (Sep 20, 2021)

limbwalker said:


> Just start a new thread with your specific question(s). Chances are if you have them, so does someone else.


Can't I just call you...at the Chicken Ranch? lolol ( TOTALLY KIDDING ) don't hate me ))
Actually, I caught this thread (or another thread) where someone was giving you a hard time about Karaoke...Well John...fear not....I went to University FOR "classical voice" and I WAS an actual profssional "Opera singer" in NYC at one time...and I actually WAS ON "Star Search" (got the video proof) so.....if you wanna trade archery knowledge for voice lessons, just let me know ;-) lololol


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

DERBYBLOOD said:


> Can't I just call you...at the Chicken Ranch? lolol ( TOTALLY KIDDING ) don't hate me ))
> Actually, I caught this thread (or another thread) where someone was giving you a hard time about Karaoke...Well John...fear not....I went to University FOR "classical voice" and I WAS an actual profssional "Opera singer" in NYC at one time...and I actually WAS ON "Star Search" (got the video proof) so.....if you wanna trade archery knowledge for voice lessons, just let me know ;-) lololol


If you have a question not related to this topic, please start a new thread. Not sure how we can make it any more clear.


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## DERBYBLOOD (Sep 20, 2021)

limbwalker said:


> sigh, I'm afraid that's a couple strikes against you already.
> 
> If you have a question not related to this topic, start a new thread. Not sure we can make it any more clear.


"a couple of strikes against me" ? I don't get that....I TOTALLY respect you, I was just kidding,... as a matter of fact, after I "read about you" on-line and the refuge, I wondered if there might be some room there for the "Great Argus" (pheasant from Malaysia !!!) I was on the Blacktail Bow website (gorgeous trad bows) and discovered "The Great Argus" feathers (for fletching custom wood footed arrows)...sooo beautiful...and I thought to buy a "mating pair". Your refuge would be the "prefect place" to house them and grow a North American flock! )) 

Please PM me and let me know what I did to piss you off. I certainly did not mean to. To go from bow hunter to Olympic team in 15 months TOTALLY has/ had my RESPECT !!!!!!

Though not a hunter, I started my "equipment journey" collecting vintage bows. I collected EVERYTHING (after a LEARNING period)....Today I am left with a 1964 Howatt "Del Rey"...a 1965 Bear HC-30 "Black Beauty" Tamerlane (all phenolic), a Howatt (Rosewood) "Super Diablo"....and 2 Bear "Super Kodiaks"...

Please accept my apologies for anything my "extrovert persnoality" might have messed up 

BTW, I JUST got Archery by Kim, Hyung Tak (Korean System) usually $149.00 on Lancaster for $60 on Ebay !!!!! Woo Hoo !!!!


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

What you were asked/encouraged to do was pretty simple really. Rather than clutter up a thread on another topic, just simply start a new thread with your question(s).

Click on the FITA forum, and then on the "start discussion" button.


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## DERBYBLOOD (Sep 20, 2021)

When I "hover" over a name (your name) I get

Allow anyone in the conversation to invite others
Lock conversation (no responses will be allowed)
Which one do I choose to PM someone / you ?


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## DERBYBLOOD (Sep 20, 2021)

FerrumVeritas said:


> If you’re only talking to one person, could you send a PM? Or at least start a new thread, as your personal setup has nothing to do with the topic.


Thank you for pointing out my mistake....I STILL do not know HOW to send a PM on this site, then again, maybe people do not want to answer my simple question...Everyone from Bob Kaufold to John Demmer III have said how friendly and helpful the BB community is, yet....Things are starting to get "chilly" in this room/thread...John could have calculated things in his HEAD on my spine selection question and spit it out in 2 sec.....yet here I am "begging" for an answer...

People do not need to know MY "set up"....it's "off topic"....Things on THIS thread went "off topic" long ago. My question TO JOHN was a natural move from what he and I were talking about. Why didn't you bitch about John and Rick butting heads in a clearly "personal" way?

If you didn't like my "set-up" ( W&W Nano TFT Riser / W&W NS Graphene Limbs)....then you surely will not like my NEW set-up ( W&W Meta DX Riser / W&W MXT-10 Graphene Limbs) loloolool


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## Stash (Jun 1, 2002)

Respectfully request that you please stop posting on this thread. Every time you post, we all get notifications about new replies, but we are expecting them to be on topic, so you’re basically annoying many of us.

If you need help with how to use ArcheryTalk, go to the New User forum at the top and ask questions.

Then feel free to start a new thread in the appropriate forum with your own questions. You will certainly get some helpful responses.


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## Jim C (Oct 15, 2002)

Rick McKinney said:


> The US voted for BB at the World Target Championships....


good, no one would want a pissed off Lizard after them!


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## Jim C (Oct 15, 2002)

limbwalker said:


> Incidentally, I had a lot fewer than 24 barebow archers in my club (granted it's a town of 3600 people in a county of 11k) but I made sure those barebow archers saw me actively practicing and competing in the barebow discipline so they would know I took it seriously and actually knew something about what I was teaching. Once several of my barebow students went on to win nationals and then make world championship teams, I trained and certified them as coaches and then went back to shooting recurve because I'm a better recurve shooter than I am a barebow shooter. I'm a trad/barebow archer at heart, but recurve is less stressful (i.e. easier) for me because of the clicker, and I can be more competitive in that discipline without sacrificing all my other interests.
> 
> So even though I mainly compete with the recurve these days, I made sure I put in some serious years with the barebow while I was coaching and training barebow archers in my club. I felt I owed them that. I think the plan worked out okay.
> 
> ...


Mark Applegate was incredibly helpful to anyone who wanted to learn. He helped my wife get started and he taught me a bunch about how to cut "yardage" on steep angled field shots.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Jim C said:


> Mark Applegate was incredibly helpful to anyone who wanted to learn. He helped my wife get started and he taught me a bunch about how to cut "yardage" on steep angled field shots.


Mark and Ty took me out to lunch at Louisville in '05 and we had a great visit about barebow. They really encouraged me to give it a serious try. I always appreciated those guys for that and for just showing up again and again when sometimes they were a division of one.


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## Jim C (Oct 15, 2002)

limbwalker said:


> Mark and Ty took me out to lunch at Louisville in '05 and we had a great visit about barebow. They really encouraged me to give it a serious try. I always appreciated those guys for that and for just showing up again and again when sometimes they were a division of one.


IIRC Applegate was the reason why the men's team (which I believe included Vic-Recurve-and Dave-Compound but it might have been Joe M on recurve) won the team gold-which was a rarity for the USA at the time. I believe Mark beat his Swedish counterpart to seal the win


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Jim C said:


> IIRC Applegate was the reason why the men's team (which I believe included Vic-Recurve-and Dave-Compound but it might have been Joe M on recurve) won the team gold-which was a rarity for the USA at the time. I believe Mark beat his Swedish counterpart to seal the win


I remember that - it was the first time I paid any attention to World Field.


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## >--gt--> (Jul 1, 2002)

When you get a comment like this (from one of my podcast listeners), it does make one wonder if there is a fundamental issue with respect to perception which arises from the premise of this thread.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

> if there is a fundamental issue with respect to perception which arises from the premise of this thread.


HUH?
Have another drink George.


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## FerrumVeritas (Oct 9, 2020)

>--gt--> said:


> When you get a comment like this (from one of my podcast listeners), it does make one wonder if there is a fundamental issue with respect to perception which arises from the premise of this thread.
> View attachment 7474439


George...haven't you essentially said as much on your podcast? Basically that "Traditional" is what barebow should be, and "traditonal" should be whittling a selfbow and then competing? Or did I hallucinate episode 135?

You were kind of a jerk about barebow in WCs, saying that we can already shoot field and at the World Games as if recurve and compound aren't part of those events. You have been dismissive in multiple episodes, including episode 149. 

So you probably don't have to look far to see where your listeners got the idea (although they're wrong about the stabilizer).


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

FerrumVeritas said:


> George...haven't you essentially said as much on your podcast? Basically that "Traditional" is what barebow should be, and "traditonal" should be whittling a selfbow and then competing? Or did I hallucinate episode 135?
> 
> You were kind of a jerk about barebow in WCs, saying that we can already shoot field and at the World Games as if recurve and compound aren't part of those events. You have been dismissive in multiple episodes, including episode 149.
> 
> So you probably don't have to look far to see where your listeners got the idea (although they're wrong about the stabilizer).


Right on script with the elitists in the sport who have dismissed and relegated barebow "to field" for decades now.

Not enough money or "prestige" in barebow for his kind. And barebow won't miss his kind for a second either.


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## Draven Olary (Jun 12, 2016)

If Barebow gets WC what will be the competition format? 60m 3 arrows per round, 12 rounds? In how much time this “shooting one distance” will become boring?
If there are multiple distances on flat and non deceiving ground since you don’t want to spill in Field, is anybody having the idea of the logistics cost behind a tournament?
I don’t know, but the Barebow community who wants to promote itself in all the countries members of WA should answer these questions first before trying to comply with Chapter 3 from WA.

PS Is anybody knowing what is the average number of barebow shooters in Field competitions? Here are as Stash said. This will give the indication of how many barebow shooters will like to shoot multiple distances. I’ve seen the “18m or 50m only” attitude. How’s going down South and World wide?


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Draven Olary said:


> If Barebow gets WC what will be the competition format? 60m 3 arrows per round, 12 rounds? In how much time this “shooting one distance” will become boring?
> If there are multiple distances on flat and non deceiving ground since you don’t want to spill in Field, is anybody having the idea of the logistics cost behind a tournament?
> I don’t know, but the Barebow community who wants to promote itself in all the countries members of WA should answer these questions first before trying to comply with Chapter 3 from WA.
> 
> PS Is anybody knowing what is the average number of barebow shooters in Field competitions? Here are as Stash said. This will give the indication of how many barebow shooters will like to shoot multiple distances. I’ve seen the “18m or 50m only” attitude. How’s going down South and World wide?


Same format that WA is already accepting world records for.


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## Draven Olary (Jun 12, 2016)

And the distance? OR is 70m, Compound is 50m. Barebow will be what? 50m? I would fill the gap in between the two and make it 60m but that's me.
In the end what it is wanted is "one distance event" from what I can see. And here comes the issue: how many self taught barebow archers have 60m (or 50m) to train for this? Since let's be clear, more than 80% of the barebow shooters are home-made shooters now. My take? The barebow community grew fast because of the 20 yards competitions, not long distances. Is someone capable to give a real number of barebow shooters in a Field competition?


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Draven Olary said:


> And the distance? OR is 70m, Compound is 50m. Barebow will be what? 50m? I would fill the gap in between the two and make it 60m but that's me.
> In the end what it is wanted is "one distance event" from what I can see. And here comes the issue: how many self taught barebow archers have 60m (or 50m) to train for this? Since let's be clear, more than 80% of the barebow shooters are home-made shooters now. My take? The barebow community grew fast because of the 20 yards competitions, not long distances.


Barebow has been 50M on a 122 for several years now in the U.S., and WA began accepting world records for that format in 2020.

24 world records broken since pandemic hiatus on recognised events ended in July

Stonebraker and I lobbied for 60m for barebow, and the inaugural US Archery Outdoor Nationals barebow division was shot at 60m in 2015. But that was a bit much for many of the competitors - particularly the ladies who were shooting lower draw weights and had to aim above the bale. So a compromise was made to 50m. This also had the effect of making the recurve and barebow scores from the better shooters somewhat comparable, and I can appreciate that. For example, at last weekend's TX state outdoor event, the top female recurver at 70m shot within a few points of 300 and so did the top female barebow archer.

50m isn't that hard to find at any outdoor archery club, and in fact I had 50m in my back yard in a subdivision in town (until we moved out of town last year). I talk to a lot of barebow archers and I can't recall any of them not enjoying 50m outdoors. Sure, it takes some work and some knowledge to get there, but that is true for 70m with a recurve as well. My daughter shot "up" to the Junior division in 2015 at Outdoor Nationals when she was a cadet, and she shot 50m in some pretty tough conditions with her barebow rig. She wasn't quite 15 yet.


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## Draven Olary (Jun 12, 2016)

And now comes the question regarding the other countries: do they have the numbers to make it happen? I can see Europe in general and North America as possible contenders but I doubt the "make it now and we will give you candidates later" can work when there is no money given / invested for the rest of the world.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Draven Olary said:


> And now comes the question regarding the other countries: do they have the numbers to make it happen? I can see Europe in general and North America as possible contenders but I doubt the "make it now and we will give you candidates later" can work when there is no money given / invested for the rest of the world.


I'm sure that's always a consideration. But these events do usually turn out to be a "chicken or the egg" problem, much as it was here in the US before 2015.


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## >--gt--> (Jul 1, 2002)

I think that fundamentally, some folks here misunderstand the funding and revenue models that currently fuel World level events. One current category is responsible for the vast majority of revenue to the world governing body, which comes from IOC revenue sharing. The other current category is, to put it crudely, a remora on the shark of that model- with no substantive revenue to the world body outside of a handful of endemic sponsorships (which are a tiny sub-percent fraction of the total required to run the enterprise). This has been the case since acceptance of the second category to World Championship status in 1991 (indoor) and 1995 (outdoor).

Yet, WA promotes and supports both of the current World Championship divisions equally, because of their mission and commitment to the totality of the sport. Over three decades, the second category eventually created a compelling enough self-standing narrative to support the non-endemic media arrangements that were driven by the first category- but it is still an overall negative cost factor, purely from a revenue perspective.

In a very related way, with 255 member nations, nearly 97% of WA member organizations still provide practically zero support, financially or otherwise, to that second category, mostly for the exact same reason. Money.

Until that particular category can be added to the Olympic program, this will be a persistent issue. 

Some forward-looking countries, with relatively deep financial resources, like Korea, see this as an inevitability and have put a fraction of those resources into the pursuit of excellence in the second category, with measurable positive results. Others, like Japan, as an example, have been highly resistant to supporting the second category unless and until Olympic Games acceptance becomes a reality, because of revenue related issues. 

The solution is also the problem.

Some of us are working to break this logjam and move the second category forward- but those advocating for yet a third category, would do well to learn from the lessons of the second.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Where have barebow archers ever heard "wait your turn" before? 

Good info above by gt however.

I will highlight where he said:



> "WA promotes and supports both of the current World Championship divisions equally, *because of their mission and commitment to the totality of the sport.* Over three decades, the second category eventually created a compelling enough self-standing narrative to support the non-endemic media arrangements that were driven by the first category-"


I think that's all barebow archers are asking for. Barebow archers are not in any different position and are not being treated any differently than compound archers were 25-30 years ago.

WA has stated it's mission to promote growth in the sport. Adding barebow to the world championships is consistent with that stated mission.


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## Stash (Jun 1, 2002)

Draven Olary said:


> And now comes the question regarding the other countries: do they have the numbers to make it happen?


“Now” comes the question? You mean the one that was repeatedly asked (but not answered) a week ago? 😄


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## Draven Olary (Jun 12, 2016)

My turn, Stash!


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## Stash (Jun 1, 2002)

Hope you have better luck getting an answer.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Stash said:


> Hope you have better luck getting an answer.


Which one of you shoots barebow competitively? Asking for a friend.


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## Draven Olary (Jun 12, 2016)

Define "competitively". I shoot Indoor during the winter leagues and I am one of the lucky ones to have a field course built inside the 3D course - distances from 10, up to 60m. I am the single one from 40 archers shooting barebow and the field course is built by compound archers, hence the size of target face is smaller compared to the normal course for barebow. Since I don't like "unicity" I shoot my "trad" recurves and longbows 3D and field especially in Covid times and I learnt that you can be a poor shot as barebow shooter the same as a "trad" once you get out of the "one known distance zone". You need to put a lot of time in it to be good, compared to shooting just one distance over and over again.

Care to answer how many barebow shooters are in Field competitions down there? In my opinion this number is the one that will give the right hour regarding the barebow numbers.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Draven Olary said:


> Define "competitively".


As in, competing in the barebow division at tournaments for reasons other than dabbling or humoring yourself.


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## Draven Olary (Jun 12, 2016)

WA rules were implemented here 3 or 4 years ago and 2 of the years are Covid years. When I though I am ready there were no competitions. I think you got your answer now?


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## Stash (Jun 1, 2002)

I have only shot actual “barebow” (as opposed to “trad”) maybe twice in an indoor event. Main reason, just don’t care for it, but also, target barebow just has never been much of a thing in Canada. It is very slightly growing, but historically, not so much. I don’t see how my own shooting is relevant to a discussion about a world-wide sporting event, though.

Just some stats from Canada - a quick look through results of the Canadian outdoor target champs over the last few years shows these numbers:

2019 Total competing 187, Barebow 8
2018 Total competing 183, Barebow 2
2017 Total competing 238, Barebow 0
2016 Total competing 259, Barebow 0

Indoors, BB participation was a bit higher. In 2019 for our regional championships (pre-Covid) we had 72 Barebow archers (in all age/gender divisions) out of a total of about 740 participants.

I previously mentioned Barebow participation in our 2021 Ontario Outdoor championships, 6 BB out of 79 total. No shoot in 2020, but in 2019 we had 2 BB out of 94 total.

So, in Canada, no evidence that we have what could be even be generously referred to as a “surge” of Barebow archers. 

Can’t speak for other WA member countries.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

I see a 400% increase in barebow participation in just the past year. 

Archery is very much a "money see, monkey do" sport. 

When I was actively shooting OR, most of the archers in my JOAD club shot OR. When I switched back to Barebow, all the sudden we had more barebow archers in the club. I know JOAD clubs that are almost exclusively compound. You can guess what the club directors shoot.


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## Stash (Jun 1, 2002)

😄


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Stash said:


> Twice nothing is still nothing.
> 
> 
> Star Trek (1966) - S02E15 The Trouble with Tribbles clip with quote Twice nothing is still nothing. Yarn is the best search for video clips by quote. Find the exact moment in a TV show, movie, or music video you want to share. Easily move forward or backward to get to the perfect clip.
> ...


No no. Not nothing. 2 is not nothing.


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## Stash (Jun 1, 2002)

Statistically, in this case it is...

Give it a few years. Maybe 15-20.

I checked out a few other National tournament results on IANSEO. No BB shooters in Uganda.


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## FerrumVeritas (Oct 9, 2020)

I’m still seeing Schrodinger’s barebow here. Either adding barebow to WCs would add 600 archers because countries would send full contingents across all age categories, or barebow isn’t popular enough outside of a few countries and only a handful of barebow archers would be sent.

There are at least 5 countries with strong, competitive barebow contingents: US, Sweden, Italy, UK, Australia. That covers three different geographic regions. That’s enough for there to be some event where their best archers can compete against each other.

Many countries simply won’t send archers to events that have nothing to do with the Olympics, requiring those archers to self-fund. I guess as an American I don’t have a ton of sympathy, as we basically all have to do that. Frankly those orgs aren’t interested in growing archery, they’re only interested in Olympic medals. That’s why WA reduced the weight of their votes based on participation in WA events.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Stash said:


> Statistically, in this case it is...
> 
> Give it a few years. Maybe 15-20.
> 
> I checked out a few other National tournament results on IANSEO. No BB shooters in Uganda.


You must find some comfort in that at least.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

FerrumVeritas said:


> I’m still seeing Schrodinger’s barebow here. Either adding barebow to WCs would add 600 archers because countries would send full contingents across all age categories, or barebow isn’t popular enough outside of a few countries and only a handful of barebow archers would be sent.
> 
> There are at least 5 countries with strong, competitive barebow contingents: US, Sweden, Italy, UK, Australia. That covers three different geographic regions. That’s enough for there to be some event where their best archers can compete against each other.
> 
> Many countries simply won’t send archers to events that have nothing to do with the Olympics, requiring those archers to self-fund. I guess as an American I don’t have a ton of sympathy, as we basically all have to do that. Frankly those orgs aren’t interested in growing archery, they’re only interested in Olympic medals. That’s why WA reduced the weight of their votes based on participation in WA events.


In all fairness, the world champion barebow archers for a long time now, have been the world field champions - for which all those countries (and more) send archers with some level (however small) of support. 

Because there aren't any full-time barebow archers like there are recurvers and compounders, I do wonder how many barebow competitors will actually travel to both the world field and world outdoor championships. Probably not too many that have full time jobs.


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## Stash (Jun 1, 2002)

limbwalker said:


> You must find some comfort in that at least.


Actually, no.

I’d like to point out that I have not “taken sides” on this subject. I’m neither for nor against Barebow as a discipline, never have been.

I have only asked for someone to present some data on worldwide participation numbers to support the opinion that it currently warrants inclusion in the WA target championships. So far I haven’t seen sufficient evidence for me to formulate my own opinion.

The absence of any such supporting data currently leads me to support the status quo, but should any such evidence be presented, I’m completely open to supporting Barebow inclusion as a discipline equal in importance to Recurve and Compound at the World Target level.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Stash said:


> Actually, no.
> 
> I’d like to point out that I have not “taken sides” on this subject. I’m neither for nor against Barebow as a discipline, never have been.
> 
> ...


You (and Rick and gt) just "seem" to enjoy continually pointing out the low numbers of barebow archers anywhere you can find them. Reminds me exactly of the comments Denise and company used to make as their justification for not offering a barebow division. Like exactly. It's nothing more than the old guard resisting change and clinging to their safe space.

As for supporting data - again, that could have easily been right out of Denise's mouth as well. Same song. "show me the numbers" when there isn't a competition to be had. LOL

So in the absence of numbers, Denise always voted for the status quo. Amazing how that worked year after year after year.

I guess we need Brady to speak up here too.  Or in your case, Crispin.

You have no skin in the game Stash. None of this affects you in the least. It would be like me jumping on compound threads and constantly offering my opinion on what formats or events compounds should be included in, which would be equally ridiculous.


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## Stash (Jun 1, 2002)

limbwalker said:


> You just "seem" to enjoy continually pointing out the low numbers of barebow archers wherever you can find them. Reminds me exactly of the comments Denise and company used to make as their justification for not offering a barebow division. Like exactly.


I regret that you feel that way. 

If you say “A” but all I can find is evidence for “B”, it’s not enjoyment to point that out. It’s merely discussion. Easy enough to shut my perceived negativity down, though. Simply offer evidence that the numbers at the international level support the premise.

I assure you (again) that it’s nothing against Barebow on my part. I’m generally cynical about most things, and my life experience so far has taught me to try to base my own conclusions, when and where appropriate, on the preponderance of reputable evidence rather than on emotion.

Of course, “reputable” is a crucial word. 😄


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Stash, your participation (and Rick's and gt's) in barebow threads is very disingenuous. None of you have managed to convince anyone that you actually care about the division.


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## Stash (Jun 1, 2002)

Personally, i admit that I do not care that much about it. But that doesn’t mean I’m AGAINST it, and I certainly wouldn’t go so far as to refer to archers who participate in events other than my own particular favorite as “blue jean wearing heathens”, or any such. 😄 

I recall that recently you posted something about not watching the compound matches because you’re not interested. Can’t find the quote, but, same thing. I would never therefore conclude that any comments YOU make on the subject are disingenuous. I would expect the same courtesy in return.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Stash said:


> Personally, i admit that I do not care that much about it. But that doesn’t mean I’m AGAINST it, and I certainly wouldn’t go so far as to refer to archers who participate in events other than my own particular favorite as “blue jean wearing heathens”, or any such. 😄
> 
> I recall that recently you posted something about not watching the compound matches because you’re not interested. Can’t find the quote, but, same thing. I would never therefore conclude that any comments YOU make on the subject are disingenuous. I would expect the same courtesy in return.


But that's just it... how many posts have you ever seen me make on compound threads? I certainly don't obsess over and argue with compounders about their formats or events. I guess you just don't see it. You made your points time and again, and yet here you (who freely admits you don't care much about barebow) are...


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## Stash (Jun 1, 2002)

Except that I do care about compound and recurve. And adding barebow to the WA agenda might, by stretching financial and human resources thin, negatively affect those events. So I feel what I have to say has some value.

You won’t hear my input on synchronized diving or the debate about Red Vines and Twizzlers, because not only do I not care, they don’t affect my life a whole lot.


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## Stash (Jun 1, 2002)

A complete aside...

I’m retired and there’s nothing on TV. What’s your excuse? I hope you’re self-employed, because if I was your boss, I’d be royally pissed at how much time you’re spending not working, 😄😄😄


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

I give up. You win. And you're right. I do spend too much time here. Particularly on this thread.


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## Stash (Jun 1, 2002)

limbwalker said:


> I give up. You win. And you're right. I do spend too much time here. Particularly on this thread.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Stash said:


> View attachment 7474824


LOL


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## Draven Olary (Jun 12, 2016)

limbwalker said:


> You (and Rick and gt) just "seem" to enjoy continually pointing out the low numbers of barebow archers anywhere you can find them.


I asked for the numbers not to dismiss the will of barebow community but to dismiss the idea of elitists who are opposed to it.
I don’t see myself doing a 12h round trip for 3h competition to find out I am the single barebow shooter. This is the reality in other parts out of USA. Instinctive and Longbow or Trad divisions here have better numbers and I really don’t feel betrayed by Archery Canada if the vote was against - I have no clue how they voted. Here driving 800km I am in same Province. In Europe I am in different countries. I understand very well the pleasure of being barebow guy in Europe. Today in France, next week in Spain or Sweden.
And If I remember right there are barebow shooters in France living from archery. I think WA longbow shooters too. Competing, getting support from Uukha for example and teaching.


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## Fly2High (Feb 25, 2019)

Is this conversation limited to a type of barebow competition or does indoor or out, field or target events count?

Having a hard time finding details of the event in some cases.

Going over to the World Archery website I did some searches using their tools and found some of the things I and some of you are looking for:

I limited my search to barebow events and sometimes did some hand counting. The search tool is not perfect and sometimes gives events that lack barebow. Maybe the were going to offer it but did not have any takers. I am not sure.

Participant count
In Canada 
LAC LA BICHE 2019 Men's barebow : 38, Women's barebow : 26
DOUBLE 720, GATINEAU QC 2021 M: 21 W: 9


England
Welsh Archery Association Open Senior Indoor Championship 2020 M: 20 W: 9


God, WO makes it next to impossible to gather any form of data. Yes, in Europe, there are tons of events all over the place. We all know that Lancaster and Vegas in the US have seen huge jumps in participation in barebow so there is no point in posting that. COVID has ruined any real numbers in 2020 and there are only so many for 2021 for the same reasons.

Frank


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## Stash (Jun 1, 2002)

The thread is about adding Barebow to Compound and Recurve at World Archery world championship target events, indoor and outdoor. Not field, not 3D.

The discussion is pretty much based on this (from the link in the OP):

_Reason: There has been strong enthusiasm worldwide for the inclusion of Barebow for target and there is a strong desire from the barebow community of archers to also crown a world champion in target archery.

Problem: Inclusion of barebow would raise the participation number so high that it would be impossible to find organisers for target World Archery Championships due to necessary venue size. If this motion is accepted, it would result in setting a participation limit for every category (including for recurve and compound). Or would be leading to an extension of the event programme which would significantly raise the price of participation for all teams. Looking from World Archery perspective, it would also mean extra cost and budget increase which means there will need to be something that World Archery will do less in the future if extra revenue sources not found._

So, the discussion is basically about whether or not the level of “strong enthusiasm worldwide” is sufficient to override the inherent logistical problem. This time it was felt by the majority of voting members of the WA that the time was not right, and that the problems outweighed the demand.

With the vast majority of Archery Talk members based only in one country, trying to come up with any objective analysis of that worldwide level is, as you have discovered, very difficult for those of us participating in this discussion here.

The default position would be to defer to the people with the most information about the situation in their own countries, that is, the WA delegates. But the question about THEIR objectivity has been brought forward.

Some national associations include Barebow in their target championships, some do not. Some regional associations (state, province, etc) and more local associations do, some do not. These are run under WA rules, but are not controlled by the WA. Some national associations regulate all competition archery, some only regulate their international interactions.

So, it’s complicated.


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## Fly2High (Feb 25, 2019)

At 50th US Nationals 
Participation count for this one event was

M: 106 W: 65
Junior M: 37 W: 25
Cadet M :18 W: 20
Cub M : 10 W:15
Bowman M: 8 W: 4
Masters M: 62 W: 31
Collegiate M: 76 W: 45



Between Ends - Event List



So if you like barebow some of the negatives of Canada seem to be( besides having Stash there), Canada doesn't seem to offer much competition for you. Just joking Stash!! got to lighten this place up a bit.

For whatever reason, barebow in the US has taken a big hold it would appear. 

All joking aside, does the lack of numbers drive others away from barebow to other forms? Why take up a sport where the competitive numbers haven't broken a reasonable threshold?

In other competitive endeavors I have partaken in, it almost seemed like participants were like lemmings and just followed certain individuals to particular contests. I would go so far as to say that when there is a higher skilled individual within a region that attend particular events, those events will rise in number for the chance to compete with them. I am sure that Brady and John D. bring in numbers as soon as they register for an event just because they are attending. It also brings other top guys to compete with them at those events and their entourages of fans.

I am not following much but who is big in say Canada, besides Stash, AND who likes barebow (that takes out Stash) and might help draw a crowd? Any celebrity types up there? (did I joke again too soon) Don't feel bad, the only group I would attract are those looking for some comedy in archery and based on the above, it too is a very small group.


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## Fly2High (Feb 25, 2019)

Stash said:


> The thread is about adding Barebow to Compound and Recurve at World Archery world championship target events, indoor and outdoor. Not field, not 3D.
> 
> The discussion is pretty much based on this (from the link in the OP):
> 
> ...


thanks for the details. appreciate the focus and hope to find some examples if possible.


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## FiFi (Dec 4, 2002)

Well might as well jump in here too, I have been around the bock a time or two and see BB running into the same gambit as when a new movie with archery shows up, its seems good on the surface but when joe public finds out that this isn't Hollywood and you just might have to put some real effort in those numbers drop off very fast, no different when some recurves drop off and switch to compound, nothing really changes except a score on paper and people you shoot with, what it takes to truly compete remains the same, shooting 650 recurve while ok changing to compound and shooting 690 puts you in the same position while nice isn't competitive, BB will be going through this phase for a while, its new again but when the truly competitive BB archers can be counted on one hand it will remain the new thing until the competitive score drop off isn't so steep, then you will see what kind of retention it will have, Field has a stable following but Target is still the new kid for BB


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

FiFi said:


> Well might as well jump in here too, I have been around the bock a time or two and see BB running into the same gambit as when a new movie with archery shows up, its seems good on the surface but when joe public finds out that this isn't Hollywood and you just might have to put some real effort in those numbers drop off very fast, no different when some recurves drop off and switch to compound, nothing really changes except a score on paper and people you shoot with, what it takes to truly compete remains the same, shooting 650 recurve while ok changing to compound and shooting 690 puts you in the same position while nice isn't competitive, BB will be going through this phase for a while, its new again but when the truly competitive BB archers can be counted on one hand it will remain the new thing until the competitive score drop off isn't so steep, then you will see what kind of retention it will have, Field has a stable following but Target is still the new kid for BB



FiFi, out of curiosity, how long have you shot barebow?


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## FiFi (Dec 4, 2002)

limbwalker said:


> FiFi, out of curiosity, how long have you shot barebow?


a few decades myself


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## Draven Olary (Jun 12, 2016)

Limbwalker, how many months or years someone is shooting as barebow archer are not important since the winner of Lancaster most of the time - when is not Demmer - is someone who started barebow 2 years before. Even the 50m competitions are won by 2 years old barebows on women side if I am remembering right. Lets face it, stringwalking is the "novelty" not the barebow in the "barebow era" when in most competitions it was banned. An aiming method is easy to learn, you don't require years to "get it".


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Draven Olary said:


> Limbwalker, how many months or years someone is shooting as barebow archer are not important since the winner of Lancaster most of the time - when is not Demmer - is someone who started barebow 2 years before. Even the 50m competitions are won by 2 years old barebows on women side if I am remembering right. Lets face it, stringwalking is the "novelty" not the barebow in the "barebow era" when in most competitions it was banned. An aiming method is easy to learn, you don't require years to "get it".


LOL sure.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

FiFi said:


> a few decades myself


How many years has your country had an outdoor target (50M) national championship division?


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## Draven Olary (Jun 12, 2016)

limbwalker said:


> LOL sure.


Something wrong in what I said? Heck, you posted pages behind how your newbs are hitting 6 out of 10 arrows in 10 ring at 50m but for the rest it is required a life time to get it?


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Draven Olary said:


> Something wrong in what I said? Heck, you posted pages behind how your newbs are hitting 6 out of 10 arrows in 10 at 50m but for the rest it is required a life time to get it?


Newbs? Hardly. Robert, like Richard, has worked his ass off. Don't make too many assumptions here.

I'm beginning to wonder exactly what Canada has against serious barebow target archery.


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## Draven Olary (Jun 12, 2016)

And you don’t make assumptions that the rest can’t be hard workers


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Draven Olary said:


> And you don’t make assumptions that the rest can’t be hard workers


Huh?

Look, I'm getting tired of defending and explaining barebow to "team Canada" here. If you guys don't get it, and have no interest in "getting it" then that's no skin off my nose. Keep voting "no," don't start a division for 50M outdoor barebow at your national champs, keep the barebow numbers low, never try it seriously yourselves, and like Denise before you, double down and embrace your biases. I frankly couldn't care less. Myself and plenty others have been fighting this small-minded, nearsighted mentality for nearly a decade now and I'm tired of it. I'm out on this one.


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## Draven Olary (Jun 12, 2016)

Huh huh? 
care to explain why are you asking how many years you shoot in barebow division?


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## FiFi (Dec 4, 2002)

limbwalker said:


> How many years has your country had an outdoor target (50M) national championship division?



they haven't held Nationals in 2 years now so no 50m championship yet, we did how ever shoot the 1440 round BB going back to the late 60's, so our 50m records where shot on the 80cm. To me the biggest rise in target BB is simply the acceptance of a standard definition of equipment across all organizations. While BB enjoys a resurgence currently when there becomes a defined pecking order the fall off will start, this happened to field in the 80's 3d in the 90's, whats old is new again, ride it out and hope they stay with it. The several that have come by to seek help with shooting BB competitively soon realize they need to put the same effort in as any other discipline to truly be competitive, right now most see it has new and not serious yet


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## Draven Olary (Jun 12, 2016)

limbwalker said:


> Huh?
> 
> Look, I'm getting tired of defending and explaining barebow to "team Canada" here. If you guys don't get it, and have no interest in "getting it" then that's no skin off my nose. Keep voting "no," don't start a division for 50M outdoor barebow at your national champs, keep the barebow numbers low, never try it seriously yourselves, and embrace your biases. I frankly couldn't care less. Myself and plenty others have been fighting this small-minded, nearsighted mentality for nearly a decade now and I'm tired of it. I'm out on this one.


And you were blaming others being elitists. I consider myself a decent barebow shooting mid 270s/300 averages for pleasure but I don’t see this as the peak of the crop of archery. Shooting longbow and woodies is, and when I will be at 260s/300 averages I will finally decide to compete. I have no bias and I am not interested in personal vendettas due to “not getting what I want now”. If it was me who would have a vote I would have said Yes, but no decisional power here, sorry. It will happen when it will happen.


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## Stash (Jun 1, 2002)

limbwalker said:


> How many years has your country had an outdoor target (50M) national championship division?


A friend has posted Canadian Championships results going back to the 1940s on his website. I looked back at a few and as an example, I noticed the 1964 Canadian Championships, in which the Men Freestyle division was won by a young fellow going by the name “Dick Tone”.

There was a barebow division (called “instinctive” back then) with 12 participants out of about 70 total. Back then the championship consisted of two target rounds (one a 1440) and two field rounds.

The earliest year that actually indicates different equipment divisions (freestyle and instinctive) is 1953, when they shot York and Double American rounds.

Barebow is nothing new in Canada. We have ALWAYS had a barebow division in our indoor and outdoor championships.

But, like recently, the participation numbers have never been close to those of Recurve or Compound


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## FerrumVeritas (Oct 9, 2020)

FiFi said:


> they haven't held Nationals in 2 years now so no 50m championship yet, we did how ever shoot the 1440 round BB going back to the late 60's, so our 50m records where shot on the 80cm. To me the biggest rise in target BB is simply the acceptance of a standard definition of equipment across all organizations. While BB enjoys a resurgence currently when there becomes a defined pecking order the fall off will start, this happened to field in the 80's 3d in the 90's, whats old is new again, ride it out and hope they stay with it. The several that have come by to seek help with shooting BB competitively soon realize they need to put the same effort in as any other discipline to truly be competitive, right now most see it has new and not serious yet


While I have to put in the same amount of effort, I think the big difference for non-child barebow archers is that barebow feels like a more even playing field: everyone has a day job. No one is a pro. That's not true for compound, and while it's more true for recurve, the existence of RAs can still be discouraging. Yes, they all worked to get there, but many of them did so when they were young enough to not have financial worries. 

Even barebow's sponsored archers, in the US at least, are very much amateurs.


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## Draven Olary (Jun 12, 2016)

Ferrum Veritas you put the dot on the “i”. Stringwalking at 20 gave the Average Joe the possibility to increase his chances at hitting gold if he put the effort in it without being a Pro, having expensive equipment or even an Archery Coach. Even hunters adapted and are many more now shooting using a fixed crawl. Having a WC would be awesome for the “amateur archer” but it looks like the World thinks different for the moment.
It’s not the end of the World, eh?


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## Draven Olary (Jun 12, 2016)

Double post


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