# upper limb stuck in riser



## SonnyJ (Sep 2, 2012)

How can I get it unstuck?
Cartel Fantom riser and SF Archery limbs.....the lower limb comes out with no problem, but the upper limb doesn't want to budge.


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## C.Perkins (Sep 25, 2013)

I have the same riser and limbs.
Found that if I loosen both of the set screws a turn each that adjusts the limb pocket alignment that I can remove the limbs easier, but still are a pretty snug fit.
Just go one complete turn each so you get set it back to where it was once the limbs are installed.
Hope this helps.
Clarence


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## Limbman (Oct 14, 2013)

Push down slightly on the screw head on the front face of the limb that holds the pocket guide in.
This should allow it to pop out with ease.

You may have some clear coat build up in the slots as well, if so you can file it lightly to remove it.

Mike


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## kitzilla (May 10, 2013)

I had the same problem with the exact same setup. I had to tighten down the tiller bolts all the way before I could get 1 limb off


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## SonnyJ (Sep 2, 2012)

I ended up taking the ILF bushing apart. The pin wasn't releasing from the detent.


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## C.Perkins (Sep 25, 2013)

Glad you got it off.
In my case the allen screws were pinching the limb pocket just enough to keep me from removing them.
When I loosened a bit the limb came out.
I need to go at it and clean any paint and such out of there.
Clarence


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## dchan (Jun 29, 2004)

since taking apart the pin bushing/spring resolved your problem I would suspect your detent pin is not sliding smoothly in the bushing.

When I see this symptom, I usually very lightly hit the edges of the pin with some 600-1000grit sand paper, and polish the pin.. Then put some lithium grease on the pin/pin hole to keep it moving smoothly. Then when you put the screw back in, Make sure you clean the threads and put some sort of thread locker in before you re-assemble. Loctite blue (breakable) or a very small drop of fingernail polish would work. I don't know how many pins/springs/screws we have lost because they rattled loose.


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## SonnyJ (Sep 2, 2012)

dchan said:


> since taking apart the pin bushing/spring resolved your problem I would suspect your detent pin is not sliding smoothly in the bushing.
> 
> When I see this symptom, I usually very lightly hit the edges of the pin with some 600-1000grit sand paper, and polish the pin.. Then put some lithium grease on the pin/pin hole to keep it moving smoothly. Then when you put the screw back in, Make sure you clean the threads and put some sort of thread locker in before you re-assemble. Loctite blue (breakable) or a very small drop of fingernail polish would work. I don't know how many pins/springs/screws we have lost because they rattled loose.


Thanks...sounds like a plan.


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## archerynooblol (Nov 6, 2010)

Had the same problem a while back as well. Personally I think there's a little bit of tolerancing issues with the limb pockets. But nothing that won't wear into a nice groove eventually:

Here's a picture I posted before. Dovetail plate sits a little lower than the rest of the riser. Detent pin gets caught on the shoulder as pictured.


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## Jim C (Oct 15, 2002)

dchan said:


> since taking apart the pin bushing/spring resolved your problem I would suspect your detent pin is not sliding smoothly in the bushing.
> 
> When I see this symptom, I usually very lightly hit the edges of the pin with some 600-1000grit sand paper, and polish the pin.. Then put some lithium grease on the pin/pin hole to keep it moving smoothly. Then when you put the screw back in, Make sure you clean the threads and put some sort of thread locker in before you re-assemble. Loctite blue (breakable) or a very small drop of fingernail polish would work. I don't know how many pins/springs/screws we have lost because they rattled loose.


good advice-same I would give. I tell my kids to constantly check the tightness on their bushings- I was at the Regional Field Shoot and my Sky limb lost the entire set of parts. fortunately I was able to find them in the leaves-I figure that was something I could do again less than one time out of 100. I had a back up set of parts in my quiver though. after that it was loctite time


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## shuumai (Nov 23, 2013)

I'm glad a found this thread! I was able to fix my Fantom riser with Axiom+ limbs simply by adding a washer under the limb alignment bracket. It was sitting slightly too low. The limb would bind when being installed if the tiller bolt was backed out more than 2 turns. Now it works out to 4 to 5-1/2 turns. This saved me from returning the riser. (Also, the one tiller bolt with "crunchy" threads smoothed out after some break-in.)


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## OlyShoot (Feb 10, 2013)

I've had this problem too if you look at the limb pocket it is at least a cm longer after the dovetail than others. Some where I read about Fantom specs max adjustment to tiller bolts is about 1.5 turns. I think this is due to extra length of limb pocket. You can solve this by either adding a spacer( washer) under the limb pocket dovetail or by lengthening the dovetail on the limb. Either way works I've tried both. Currently I'm with the pressed out limb dovetail but I find that occasionally the limb dovetail Allen bolt will loosen due to vibration. Where as the spacer minimizes how much contact the side to side Allen screws meet with the limb pocket. Time will tell which is best approach


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## shuumai (Nov 23, 2013)

OlyShoot said:


> I've had this problem too if you look at the limb pocket it is at least a cm longer after the dovetail than others. Some where I read about Fantom specs max adjustment to tiller bolts is about 1.5 turns. I think this is due to extra length of limb pocket. You can solve this by either adding a spacer( washer) under the limb pocket dovetail or by lengthening the dovetail on the limb. Either way works I've tried both. Currently I'm with the pressed out limb dovetail but I find that occasionally the limb dovetail Allen bolt will loosen due to vibration. Where as the spacer minimizes how much contact the side to side Allen screws meet with the limb pocket. Time will tell which is best approach


Could you explain that a little more? How would you lengthen the dovetail on the limb? 

How about making shims out of rubber, like bicycle innertube rubber?

I made shims out of plastic from the packaging for a phone that my son had purchased. I folded it once, traced the outline of the bracket on it, trimmed it and punched a hole through it. Fits perfect under the bracket. (I feel better that the plastic provides support for the whole underside of the bracket compared to a washer.)

I have the limbs attached now using 4 turns of the tiller bolt as the maximum. Increasing toward 5 turns while the limbs are in place, I can feel the bolt start to bind. The photo shows the bolts at 4 turns out.

BTW, I did find that one of the limb binds sooner than the other, no matter which side I test it on. The difference is the limb itself.


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## OlyShoot (Feb 10, 2013)

Note the difference in the pocket length between the yellow Fantom limb pocket and the white Hoyt Horizon







Here is how far I extended the limb dovetail







I used two blocks of wood and a "C" Clamp in this process. First drill a hole in one block of wood that is slightly larger in diameter than the dovetail and deeper than the length of the dovetail. You are going to press the dovetail into this hole so the dovetail should not contact anything in this hole.







Then place the block with the hole over the dove tail and use the other block to cover the hole and function to be a good base for the c-clamp. I used a small bit of double sided tape to keep the wood from sliding around. (you could also do this with one piece or wood that is thicker. Just make sure that it is thick enough and has enough room for the dovetail to move to its final position)







then loosen the limb allen screw a mm or two don't go too far or you might damage the screw. Then use the c-clamp to press the screw head back flush with the limb, lengthening the dovetail on the other side. Go slowly, and you may need to repeat backing out the screw head and pressing with the clamp a time or two. 







Note the orientation of the clamp. If you reverse the orientation of the clamp the screw of the clamp will twist in the allen screw (like a screw driver) and basically net gain then is zero. If you don't understand now, you will if you try this.
The dove tail is really tight in the limb and does not appear to move with use, but you can shorten it just by re-tightening the allen screw, my allen screw did get loose once or twice so keep and eye on them when you install/remove your limbs so you don't lose the allen screw. (the dovetail doesn't move its just that the allen screw is not firmly screwed down really tight any more. I suppose you could use thread-lock or some arrow hot melt to keep it from moving. 
I had to shorten the dovetail once after I adjusted (screwed in) one Tiller bolt, you will know if you have too, because your limb will creak at full draw because the dovetail pin is dragging on the dovetail socket.
Good luck with this. I do not guarantee that this mod will be error free forever, but its working for me now.


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## OlyShoot (Feb 10, 2013)

the down side of shimming up the dovetail socket with a washer or plastic shim is that the dovetail socket could become a pivot point and the end will dig into your limbs, and also be unstable. By lengthening the dovetail the limb is firmly supported by the width of the limb pocket.


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## shuumai (Nov 23, 2013)

Great photos! Blue treadlock highly recommended. My Axiom+ limbs came with threadlock applied. (I noticed when I uncrewed one for testing.) That's an improvement since I read about Axiom limbs arriving with loose screws or that they loosen with use.



OlyShoot said:


> the down side of shimming up the dovetail socket with a washer or plastic shim is that the dovetail socket could become a pivot point and the end will dig into your limbs, and also be unstable. By lengthening the dovetail the limb is firmly supported by the width of the limb pocket.


Right. That's why I tried to keep the height increase to a minimum.

Even if the limb were completely free to pivot, there would be a point at which the U-shaped cut-out would bind in the tiller bolt due to the angle. That could be tested by removing the dovetail bracket and turning the tiller bolt out until it binds. I actually did the opposite. I removed the tiller bolt and noted how far the limb would tilt with the dovetail secured.

Just thought of this. By increasing the height of the dovetail, doesn't that place the pressure on the dovetail more instead of the surface of the limb? Similar problem as having the bracket too high?


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## OlyShoot (Feb 10, 2013)

Not sure what you mean and I'm no expert in ILF design. I believe that the dovetail does two things. First it loosely hold the limb in the ILF pocket until the string is installed. Secondly it's the reference point for lateral limb alignment. It might also hold some of the limb tension but when I see how stout the tiller bolts are I'd guess they hold most of the limb pressure. In practice I don't think there is significance in/out pressure being placed on the dovetail. It's purpose is mostly for centering the limb. So the dovetail has to be long enough to negotiate the angles but not too long so that the pin drags in the socket when strung. I believe we have this issue with the Fantom because of that extra ledge between the very end of the rise and the start of the dovetail slot. It can be a good thing though because now there is more distance between the limb pivot point and the tiller bolt. Somewhat mimicking the design intent of the Hoyt Formula. Or at least that's what I try to tell myself


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## OlyShoot (Feb 10, 2013)

You don't want the dovetail extension to be glued in and permanent because if in the future you need to turn in the tiller bolt then the dovetail might be too long and as you say may become a bad pivot point. Extending the dovetail might be necessary only for those people who want to back out the tiller bolt several turns and have problems inserting/removing limbs. General guidance I believe is surface of tiller bolt is not above surface of riser.


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## Fury90flier (Jun 27, 2012)

If you take one hand and squeeze at the ILF pocket- pressing the limb into the bolt AND pressing downward and outward at the dovetail and with your other hand, grab the limb and start wiggling- the limb will come out.

it takes a little work on getting the technique down but it will work....wiggle and pull--but you have to get that squeeze right first (pressing the plunger in)


Dremel tool:
clean the edge (radius) of the detent on the (edge closest to the end of the riser)

if the quality of fit between the dovetail pocket and riser isn't good- may need to radiust that joint a little too.


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## shuumai (Nov 23, 2013)

I was wrong about the tiller bolt binding and limiting pivot range. The fact that the dovetail bracket doesn't pivot as the limb pivots, and also the legnth of the limb pocket as you said, is what limits the motion. Grinding down the edge of the riser at an angle and mayby rounding the edge of the bracket a little might free it up.

I measured about 11 degrees of angle with just the bracket attached to the limb as shown in the photo, without interference from the riser. 









BTW, I replaced one of the plastic shims with a #10 stainless steel washer, but I still prefer the idea of even support. (A wedge shaped shim might be good.) If we accept having the limb rest completely on the dovetail bracket, the range of motion could be increased to the safely limit of the tiller bolt, but shimming more might require a longer screw.

OR, the limb pocket could be built up to match the height of the shimmed bracket just in the area where it pivots.


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## shuumai (Nov 23, 2013)

I'm new to ILF, but from what I learned, without modification, the range of motion is limited basically to tiller adjustment. One turn changed the tiller 1/4". That's bad considering that one of the reasons I wanted an ILF riser was for draw weight adjustments.


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## OlyShoot (Feb 10, 2013)

I sympathize I was expecting allot but maybe at best it's 5-10% of the limb rating. It's mostly for fine tuning how the two limbs work together and how the two work with you the archer


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## Fury90flier (Jun 27, 2012)

shuumai said:


> I'm new to ILF, but from what I learned, without modification, the range of motion is limited basically to tiller adjustment. One turn changed the tiller 1/4". That's bad considering that one of the reasons I wanted an ILF riser was for draw weight adjustments.


your real major draw weight adjustment is limb swaps...as mentioned, we only move the weight up and down a little for tiller and spine tuning. If you've got 50# limbs and want 30#- you need andother set of limbs...got a 30# set of limbs and your 750's aren't tuning- you may be able to adjust the weight a little to better help the arrow spine well.

you can get inexpensive ILF limbs for about 90 bucks...when you're finished with that weight, keep them as trainers or sell them for about 50- 70 bucks...not a bad investment.


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## shuumai (Nov 23, 2013)

I understand using the weight adjustment for fine tuning only. 

Good news! I tested the Fantom with shims in place using 34# limbs. I was able to produce a 3 to 3.5# difference with 4 turns of the tiller bolt, with zero tiller. I saw weights from 33.5 to 37#. The shims could be removed if the limbs are cranked down closer to maximum. After testing, I reset my limbs to around 34 to 34.5# with 1/4" tiller. (My arrows are too weak as it is.)


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