# Are you ready for a ceramic based arrow rest?



## Garceau (Sep 3, 2010)

Careful Dorge - someone is going to accuse you of making silly stuff with too much time on your hands.

Once again I dont have much to comment on at all. Your stuff is really out of the box and always makes me think - im not smart enough to think too often. So I have to ration my thoughts out.


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## MIbowhunter49 (Aug 5, 2010)

No micro adjust.


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## gun870guy (Jun 26, 2009)

All sealed components?


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## MYMAXXIS (Mar 20, 2011)

If Firenock did it , it will prolly cost 400-500 bones...looks interesting tho


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## Firenock (Nov 5, 2006)

MYMAXXIS said:


> If Firenock did it , it will prolly cost 400-500 bones...looks interesting tho


Once a lifetime, I made a good and cheap product, how does $89.95 in black and $99.95 in camo retail sound?


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## TXHillCountry (May 9, 2003)

How is the noise when drawing? Seems like it would be loud?


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## Firenock (Nov 5, 2006)

gun870guy said:


> All sealed components?


the tiny red circles are O-rings' cross-sections.


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## Firenock (Nov 5, 2006)

TXHillCountry said:


> How is the noise when drawing? Seems like it would be loud?


Not at all, not surprisingly. The first ball is made of Zirconia Nitrate, the second ball is made of Silicon Carbide, and support by Beryllium Copper string with micro adjust ability using o_ring. The rest is targets to be 1.5 oz with the bolt. FYI, I find out that how uneven the outer shaft of arrows are, any micro uneven on the surface of the arrow will make sound as the carbon tube can behave like a resonator on super hard surface. A little car wax and buff your arrow to a shine will make it smooth and technically Eliminate any sound. Another note, it can be mounted for left and right hand vertical and horizontal bow, not to mention 4 mounting points for cock feather up, down and sideways configuration..


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## MYMAXXIS (Mar 20, 2011)

Firenock said:


> Once a lifetime, I made a good and cheap product, how does $89.95 in black and $99.95 in camo retail sound?


sounds sweet..if its like your other stuff...I'll bet its bullet proof


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## Ohio Mossy Oak (Dec 17, 2006)

*Elevation adjust?*


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## Firenock (Nov 5, 2006)

Ohio Mossy Oak said:


> *Elevation adjust?*


for the standard model, it is not that easy, the more expensive micro adjust model will have all the micro adjustment. the elevation is done by the bow bracket and the round bar adjustment.


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## soless (Nov 7, 2011)

Edit: Oops. I posted way too late


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## Sackamous (Oct 26, 2009)

LOL just cause you know someone will not think as far as there @$$ and ask... 

Will it work with fobs?

Looks cool none the less though, It seems like it will need to be adjusted for each individual arrow size. Is there numbers or something on the adjustments so that you know its centered up right and you dont have one adjusted out more than the others?


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## stixshooter (Mar 18, 2006)

Looks pretty interesting

I don't think it would work with fobs........


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## Belicoso (Aug 22, 2006)

stixshooter said:


> Looks pretty interesting
> 
> I don't think it would work with fobs........


I am not sure if it will work with small diameter shafts like Axis and 3 helical vanes,without having contact with the vane base,while the arrow passes thru the rest.


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## The Pope (Dec 4, 2011)

Tell me more about the , bubble level and sight app setting next to the rest


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## Sagittarius (May 22, 2002)

Firenock,

Does this mean Scorpyd is introducing a rail less crossbow in 2012 ?


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## mocheese (Dec 19, 2003)

I think I would have done something a little different for the elevation adjustment.


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## Firenock (Nov 5, 2006)

Belicoso said:


> I am not sure if it will work with small diameter shafts like Axis and 3 helical vanes,without having contact with the vane base,while the arrow passes thru the rest.


All three fingers are adjustable and removable. The opening form the side is 12mm. With all 3 fingers in and with 0.1mm spacers on under all 3, the largest archery projectile one can use is Gold Tip Laser III size or about 9 mm at OD. The rest comes with 12 pure titanium spacer of 2 X 0.1mm 1 X 0.2mm and 1 X 0.4mm to fit all standard and axis size. Did I mention all hard ware available for the rest are GR2 titanium, so no rusting ever. Even the bow mounting 5-16-24 X 0.75" screw are available in Titanium, and 0.059 oz compare to the usual 0.2 oz! Each contact surface is base on ABEC#5 ball bearing so the tangent is <0.000,2" base on size. It is 3 X 6mm spheres! 

For target shooter, I recommend taking the top finger off so it is becomes a 2 prong rest and to fit any size arrow, the opening of the C-frame is 12mm will have 1.32mm gap even for the biggest target shaft like Gold tip XXX is only 10.68mm OD.


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## Firenock (Nov 5, 2006)

Sagittarius said:


> Firenock,
> Does this mean Scorpyd is introducing a rail less crossbow in 2012 ?


You have to ask Jim or Rex at Scorpyd for that question as I am not privilege to disclose their future product plan nor discuss what I know (which is very limited at best). 

One thing I know, the AeroRest is going to be a Firenock Product.


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## Firenock (Nov 5, 2006)

mocheese said:


> I think I would have done something a little different for the elevation adjustment.


Me too, but for the price and the base model it will have to do. The micro adjust model will have all the bells and whistle, but it cost more, a LOT more and may be even in Lost camo.


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## tjb1 (Jun 23, 2011)

You really overuse components, materials, and fancy words... Carbide is not cheap and is very heavy, and what is the purpose of using titanium fasteners?? Stainless steel doesn't rust either and is a hell of a lot cheaper.

Your products get to the point where I cant tell if you are lying about features(.00001mm finish on aerovane) or just wasting so much money on useless materials, tolerances and engineering to have something different. Either way, I can see why you make archery products because you would get eaten alive in the industrial field by something stupid like holding a .000001" tolerance on a pop/soda bottle cap.


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## Firenock (Nov 5, 2006)

tjb1 said:


> You really overuse components, materials, and fancy words... Carbide is not cheap and is very heavy, and what is the purpose of using titanium fasteners?? Stainless steel doesn't rust either and is a hell of a lot cheaper.
> 
> Your products get to the point where I cant tell if you are lying about features(.00001mm finish on aerovane) or just wasting so much money on useless materials, tolerances and engineering to have something different. Either way, I can see why you make archery products because you would get eaten alive in the industrial field by something stupid like holding a .000001" tolerance on a pop/soda bottle cap.


Do you know Coca Cola spend over 2 million dollars on perfecting the designing the Pop soda bottle cap (just improving, not designing)? It is a fact, I personally know the Finance comptroller of Coca Cola in Atlanta and we have that discussion over this summer.

Other carbide may be heavy, but not on silicon carbide (Fuji fishing tackle use them on their guides) To further lower the weight,I actually shrink the 2nd ball to 4mm. Did you see the diagram above?

FYI, stainless is close to 4 time the weight of titanium in this apparatus, and with international sourcing that I am doing, it only make sense especially for the price i can get them. I vividly remember my bicycles days and fishing days, I would pay double just because it has the word titanium in it. From the point of marketing, how many arrow rest beside the AeroRest can claim it uses GR2 titanium? And at under 1.5 oz for the entire rest and price of $89.95 to start, I do not see any one complaining YET.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

Firenock said:


> Firenock join force with Scorpyd and come up with a totally new approach to arrow rest. It is patent pending. Below is the cross section of the rest, will not be available till after ATA2012. Give us your thought. Below is the actual picture of it in 3 finishes. The AeroRest was first shown at the Mathews show last week at Winconsin.


Very interesting, Dorge.

So, you will set the dampening by selecting the durometer of your o-rings...buna-N?

I would be interested to see your micro-adjustment - target model.


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## tjb1 (Jun 23, 2011)

Firenock said:


> Do you know Coca Cola spend over 2 million dollars on perfecting the designing the Pop soda bottle cap (just improving, not designing)? It is a fact, I personally know the Finance comptroller of Coca Cola in Atlanta and we have that discussion over this summer.
> 
> Other carbide may be heavy, but not on silicon carbide (Fuji fishing tackle use them on their guides) To further lower the weight,I actually shrink the 2nd ball to 4mm. Did you see the diagram above?
> 
> FYI, stainless is close to 4 time the weight of titanium in this apparatus, and with international sourcing that I am doing, it only make sense especially for the price i can get them. I vividly remember my bicycles days and fishing days, I would pay double just because it has the word titanium in it. From the point of marketing, how many arrow rest beside the AeroRest can claim it uses GR2 titanium? And at under 1.5 oz for the entire rest and price of $89.95 to start, I do not see any one complaining YET.


I only need to say one thing...how much money does Coca-Cola make a year? And how much does your company make a year?

They are most likely doing improvements to make things cheaper...you on the other hand are using carbide and titanium for the name. Carbide is still heavier than steel and is overkill for this application, a whisker biscuit uses fibers and lasts for a long time...spring steel rests contact the arrow with very small areas and last damn near forever. Carbide is a complete waste in this application, also you have 2 balls in the supports...not sure why because one cant spin against the other because of spring pressure so those extra ball bearings appear to be a complete waste and the arrow is most likely going to slip on the ball before the ball slips on the other ball or even slips on the spring. 

Now on to the titanium...complete waste on a rest. Weight on a rest has nothing to do with speed of the bow so the savings over stainless or even a coated steel fastener are a moot point. And if you can get titanium so cheap, I am sure you can get steel even cheaper.

If you stopped wasting so much money on over engineering you could sell much cheaper. 

1. Carbide is not needed on any part 
of a bow.
2. A .00001 finish on a vane is just plain stupid.
3. 1/72 degree accuracy on vane placement is a complete waste also, you are still aligning off one vane and if the clamp and glue can not hold that tolerance...well you see where this is going.
4. Anyone with a brain is not going to buy it just because you used some cheap titanium alloy(which is probably worse than steel) or carbide.

Edit: According to the drawing, you have nothing holding the 4mm balls in because the half way point is flush with the containment rings and you have too many moving parts like the useless 2mm ball bearing.


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## Rgarbarino (Apr 15, 2008)

Too many parts for my taste, interesting design though.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

Gotta step in clarify....

Dorge is using CERAMIC...silicon carbide.

Density of silicon carbide = HALF of mild steel.

Tungsten carbide is what you find in circular saw blades.
Density of TUNGSTEN CARBIDE = double of mild steel.

The three "balls" in contact with the arrow shaft are ceramic......not metal.


Using silicon carbide is actually, very smart, in this application.
Super Hard.
Super lightweight.
Super smooth....as close as you can get to ZERO friction against a carbon arrow shaft surface.


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## tjb1 (Jun 23, 2011)

nuts&bolts said:


> Gotta step in clarify....
> 
> Dorge is using CERAMIC...silicon carbide.
> 
> ...


Ok, my mistake on the type of carbide. But still, poor design...bearings cant rotate to begin with so no need for 2.


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## loadmaster87 (Aug 14, 2010)

Tjb1 why are you bashing a man's business and product? If you don't like it keep you're mouth shut and move on and don't buy the product. And so what if Dorge over engineers things it's his company to run as he chooses and if more companies would put the time and effort into their products like he does then I could only imagine the quality and innovation of the products that would be out there. And I really don't mean to start a pissing match but not very respectful to Dorge a man you obviously don't know bashing his product and saying his designs are just plain stupid.(2. A .00001 finish on a vane is just plain stupid) ARCHERS HELPING ARCHERS MY FRIEND.


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## tjb1 (Jun 23, 2011)

loadmaster87 said:


> Tjb1 why are you bashing a man's business and product? If you don't like it keep you're mouth shut and move on and don't buy the product. And so what if Dorge over engineers things it's his company to run as he chooses and if more companies would put the time and effort into their products like he does then I could only imagine the quality and innovation of the products that would be out there. And I really don't mean to start a pissing match but not very respectful to Dorge a man you obviously don't know bashing his product and saying his designs are just plain stupid.(2. A .00001 finish on a vane is just plain stupid) ARCHERS HELPING ARCHERS MY FRIEND.


You do know .00001mm is 40 times finer than the wavelength of violet light? and is currently not possible on something like this?

But hey, if you want to spend $900 on a fletching device that relies on the placement of the laser using your EYE to get a vane to a supposed 1/72 degree accuracy go ahead. Dont point stuff out and he will continue to add stupid things to it, if he is so concerned about weight then tell me why there are 2 ball bearings when they offer no rolling motion because of the spring tension directly on the ball bearing? You could use 1 and save all that extra weight.

You may all think im acting like an ass, and I partially am. But if you do look at the design flaws like the 2 ball bearings...that cant move. Those can be removed before he starts production and save himself a ton of money. Im an ass, but im helping.


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## N2T (Jan 27, 2007)

I do have a couple questions actually. How is one able to adjust all the diff prongs..for lack of a better word, in such a way that the arrow is centered? I mean even with two, is there a way to make sure the arrow isn't slightly to one side or the other or is this even important? Second question, how many shots was this rest tested to and what parts wear first? Most rests break down at some point, what's the longevity? Just nosey, it looks pretty cool.


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## tjb1 (Jun 23, 2011)

Quoted from http://firenock.com/main.php?page=AeroRest - He is claiming something that simply wont happen, even if you increase spring tension to get more friction against the shaft...you also increase the friction of the spring against the upper bearing so they pretty much cancel out and therefore the ball still will not rotate and the shaft will just slide against the ball so if that is the case a ton of this contraption can be eliminated.

"As the contact ball roll forward when the arrow was shot, the total contact points will be the arrow, the top of the 2nd ceramic ball and the edge of the ball holder/Cup which will be simply close to zero friction and wear."


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## N2T (Jan 27, 2007)

still, it's all in good fun, he's not forcing anyone to buy it. It's a nifty idea...sometimes it's just worth doing something cause you can.


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## MentalMisfit (Nov 15, 2011)

Looks like an interesting design. I'm willing to bet the ball rolls just fine unless you crank down on the spring pressure. Too bad my X ringers won't fit in it I'd probably give one a try. If only you could get it to hold a 10mm arrow that would cover just about every arrow there is besides the big .421 arrows. Doesnt seem like its priced to bad for the quality of materials used and being totally sealed.


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## BowAssassin (Sep 23, 2011)

Looks very interesting.


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## ArchersParadox (May 12, 2005)

...design looks good Dorge......and at that price...these will SELL....


...pay no attention to the FRUSTRATED MECHANICAL "engineer" above:thumbs_do:angry:.......there is a reason why he works for "the man"


instead of being THE MAN!!!!:thumbs_up


..there is a BIG DIFFERENCE between an engineer and an imagineer......from one imagineer to another.....keep up the great designs....


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## ArchersParadox (May 12, 2005)

tjb1 said:


> You really overuse components, materials, and fancy words... Carbide is not cheap and is very heavy, and what is the purpose of using titanium fasteners?? Stainless steel doesn't rust either and is a hell of a lot cheaper.
> 
> Your products get to the point where I cant tell if you are lying about features(.00001mm finish on aerovane) or just wasting so much money on useless materials, tolerances and engineering to have something different. Either way, I can see why you make archery products because you would get eaten alive in the industrial field by something stupid like holding a .000001" tolerance on a pop/soda bottle cap.


...




> ..........what does 'wrassling with a pig in the mud and arguing with a wannabe engineer have in common?...................
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## ArchersParadox (May 12, 2005)

tjb1 said:


> You really overuse components, materials, and fancy words... Carbide is not cheap and is very heavy, and what is the purpose of using titanium fasteners?? Stainless steel doesn't rust either and is a hell of a lot cheaper.
> 
> Your products get to the point where I cant tell if you are lying about features(.00001mm finish on aerovane) or just wasting so much money on useless materials, tolerances and engineering to have something different. Either way, I can see why you make archery products because you would get eaten alive in the industrial field by something stupid like holding a .000001" tolerance on a pop/soda bottle cap.



...I do work personally with Coca-Cola as one of my customers......if you would try to work with them in you so-called "industry" world......your attitude and engineering "prowess"..or lack thereof would not get you past the receptionist door at either Columbus, Ohio or Atlanta, Georgia Corporate....


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## Tinfoil (May 4, 2010)

Well first thing I suggest is a bubble level. Second thing I suggest is you using sealed roller bearings due to the dust and dirt that are going to collect and try to clog everything up. Ok they are my suggestions. :tongue: One other thing how you gonna know how much tension to put on the adjustment bearings to get your arrow for straight alignment. Just another thought. Later Jerry


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## aread (Dec 25, 2009)

Dorge, you are one of the more creative & innovative minds in archery. I always look forward to the things you come up with. :thumbs_up

This rest looks to be a good basic choice. As usual, you are a little high on your price compared to the competition, but still a good rest.

If it included micro adjust and a bubble, this price would be more in line with others serving the same market.

One question, how much helical can it accommodate?

Thanks for posting your design,
Allen


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## Skeeter 58 (Jan 25, 2009)

Not a big enought loading gate for me. If it were bigger I may be interested in one.


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## Buster of Xs (Nov 28, 2008)

Noisy to load, too much chance for dirt and moisture issues, too hard for the average bowhunter to adjust properly, no vertical adjustment, and the loading looks too clunky for me. The real kicker? Waxing and buffing my freaking arrows. :lol: Come on Dorge, you can do better than that.


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## Firenock (Nov 5, 2006)

N2T said:


> I do have a couple questions actually. How is one able to adjust all the diff prongs..for lack of a better word, in such a way that the arrow is centered? I mean even with two, is there a way to make sure the arrow isn't slightly to one side or the other or is this even important? Second question, how many shots was this rest tested to and what parts wear first? Most rests break down at some point, what's the longevity? Just nosey, it looks pretty cool.


As I wrote above


firenock said:


> All three fingers are adjustable and removable. The opening form the side is 12mm. With all 3 fingers in and with 0.1mm spacers on under all 3, the largest archery projectile one can use is Gold Tip Laser III size or about 9 mm at OD. The rest comes with 12 pure titanium spacer of 2 X 0.1mm 1 X 0.2mm and 1 X 0.4mm to fit all standard and axis size. Each contact surface is base on ABEC#5 ball bearing so the tangent is <0.000,2" base on size. It is 3 X 6mm spheres!


The use of ceramic as a contact point is where it is so different. With the hardness of zirconia nitrate with the value of Mohs >8.7, it is just >10% softer than diamond. (Example, for those who have seen old watches, the phase like 21 jewels is for hard surfaces (ruby Mohs 9.0) for the shafts of rotating surface to make contact with, so it will not wear) The reason of 2 balls is that the spring wear surface is actually minimized between the 2 balls which both are hard ceramic and ABEC#5. The only place left is the lip of the cup which holds the first ceramic which I use Type III anodizing (not pretty, sort of a greenish yellow) which give me >0.001" of aluminum oxide. Which is also consider as a ceramic. So it is a technically a life time rest, IMHO. As for friction point of view, the use of 2 ceramic ball is to minimize the friction between the spring and the contact ball. As the spring will have a full contact circle with the first ball, the spring tension is transfer to the contact ball by the smaller ceramic ball; which the contact surface is reduce to the the tangent tolerance of BOTH balls which in this case <0.000,2".

As for noise, try to put 2 ceramic plates together to form a valley. Pull the arrow through, and there is no noise. Should I say more!


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## Firenock (Nov 5, 2006)

Skeeter 58 said:


> Not a big enought loading gate for me. If it were bigger I may be interested in one.


the opening is 12mm which is 0.472", what arrow are you shooting? It can even load a Gold Tip XXX with close to 1.5mm room to spare. And a disclaimer, you can only use 2 prongs/fingers for any arrow larger than 9mm or about size of Gold Tip 22 series.


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## Firenock (Nov 5, 2006)

N2T said:


> still, it's all in good fun, he's not forcing anyone to buy it. It's a nifty idea...sometimes it's just worth doing something cause you can.


Thank you, my thoughts exactly, not that I rely on Firenock to live. This is my retirement fun, not my day job; if you know what I mean. If it does not sell, so what? At least I have made it and share with the world with what I think is a better design alternative than what is out there.


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## kylecurtis04 (Nov 30, 2010)

tjb1 said:


> Quoted from http://firenock.com/main.php?page=AeroRest - He is claiming something that simply wont happen, even if you increase spring tension to get more friction against the shaft...you also increase the friction of the spring against the upper bearing so they pretty much cancel out and therefore the ball still will not rotate and the shaft will just slide against the ball so if that is the case a ton of this contraption can be eliminated.
> 
> "As the contact ball roll forward when the arrow was shot, the total contact points will be the arrow, the top of the 2nd ceramic ball and the edge of the ball holder/Cup which will be simply close to zero friction and wear."


If you're so "smart," then why don't you build one?


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## zachw (Sep 28, 2010)

I want one. I just saw this on the Firenock website so I was pumped to see this post today. I think it's a pretty interesting idea and I'll be trying it out when it becomes available


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## Dan Zawacki (Apr 17, 2010)

Ummm, actually - the coefficient of sliding friction between these two ceramics is very close to zero - so despite the spring pressure, I'd bet the larger ball can turn pretty freely. Also - if you dust it down with tungsten disulphide powder, it'll be so close to zero as to be indistinguishable.

This rest looks VERY interesting to me. 

The ability to independently adjust the tension of the three 'fingers' on the shaft should really help the target crowd tune this to a "T". Question - Is there a plan to do a model that can handle a 4 fletch arrow?


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## -bowfreak- (Oct 18, 2006)

tjb1 said:


> You do know .00001mm is 40 times finer than the wavelength of violet light? and is currently not possible on something like this?
> 
> But hey, if you want to spend $900 on a fletching device that relies on the placement of the laser using your EYE to get a vane to a supposed 1/72 degree accuracy go ahead. Dont point stuff out and he will continue to add stupid things to it, if he is so concerned about weight then tell me why there are 2 ball bearings when they offer no rolling motion because of the spring tension directly on the ball bearing? You could use 1 and save all that extra weight.
> 
> You may all think im acting like an ass, and I partially am. But if you do look at the design flaws like the 2 ball bearings...that cant move. Those can be removed before he starts production and save himself a ton of money. Im an ass, but im helping.


Don't buy it.

It is not your money or time invested in the design so don't worry about it.

The market will determine whether this product will sell not your condescending posts.


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## Firenock (Nov 5, 2006)

Dan Zawacki said:


> Ummm, actually - the coefficient of sliding friction between these two ceramics is very close to zero - so despite the spring pressure, I'd bet the larger ball can turn pretty freely. Also - if you dust it down with tungsten disulphide powder, it'll be so close to zero as to be indistinguishable.
> 
> This rest looks VERY interesting to me.
> 
> The ability to independently adjust the tension of the three 'fingers' on the shaft should really help the target crowd tune this to a "T". Question - Is there a plan to do a model that can handle a 4 fletch arrow?


Just remove the top prong/finger, and you can shot 4 fletch.


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## ArcheryAttic (Feb 18, 2006)

I saw this rest at your booth at the Mathews show. Super smooth rest that is very adjustable. It wasn't mounted on a bow, but I ran an arrow through it with my hands and was impressed how smooth and quiet it was. Very neat design! Before I asked a price i guessed.....and I guessed high. Time will tell, but Dorge, I think you might have something here.


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## Marvin (Feb 17, 2005)

what real advantage is this one over any other rest say like the trophy taker or limb driver?


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## zSar (Jul 30, 2010)

IMO. For the arm or holding pins.. instead of using the regular flat head screws, it would be better to have the "Allen Screws". I dont like flat screws on bow accessories.. or maybe its just me. lol


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## powerful1992 (Oct 13, 2008)

I think this is a great idea or innovation on archery rests. The price seems ok i would have to say. I do wonder how well it will work in the cold, or if it gets a little dirty though. I guess just might have to try one in time.


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## MOC (Jul 4, 2003)

Marvin said:


> what real advantage is this one over any other rest say like the trophy taker or limb driver?


Other than having absolutely nothing in common with a trophy taker or a limb driver, you mean?


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## Firenock (Nov 5, 2006)

Marvin said:


> what real advantage is this one over any other rest say like the trophy taker or limb driver?


It is a full containment rest WITH minimum friction. And AeroRest is meant to be use on all bows (crossbow included)


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## Firenock (Nov 5, 2006)

zSar said:


> IMO. For the arm or holding pins.. instead of using the regular flat head screws, it would be better to have the "Allen Screws". I dont like flat screws on bow accessories.. or maybe its just me. lol


Those are not flat head screws! Those are machine Aluminum parts with O-rings for micro adjustment of spring tensions. About 1 newton per turn. Can be adjust to 1/16 of a turn and hold.


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## Firenock (Nov 5, 2006)

ArcheryAttic said:


> Before I asked a price i guessed.....and I guessed high.


It is $89.95 for the black and $99.95 in camo as listed on the price sheet I hand out at the Mathews show.


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## zSar (Jul 30, 2010)

Oh I see... so I need to start wearing glasses. =) I can't wait to see them available in the stores. 



Firenock said:


> Those are not flat head screws! Those are machine Aluminum parts with O-rings for micro adjustment of spring tensions. About 1 newton per turn. Can be adjust to 1/16 of a turn and hold.


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## aread (Dec 25, 2009)

One other thing that I was wondering about - if you have the arrow held firmly on three sides, where does the oscilation flex go? I see that the rollers in contact with the arrow are spring loaded, but they will still restrict the arrow flex during the power stroke. The degree of restriction will depend on the force applied by the springs.

Similar designs have bristles instead of rollers. The bristles don't restrict the oscilation as much as the rollers.

It seems that this would affect arrow flight. To what degree, I don't know. Have you checked this out with high speed video?

Allen


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## Firenock (Nov 5, 2006)

zSar said:


> Oh I see... so I need to start wearing glasses. =) I can't wait to see them available in the stores.


Not sure many store will have it, as with most Firenock products, there usually are no distributors and no box store distribution. Only selected and seasoned pro shop and our on-line store should have it.


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## Pigeonfoot (May 12, 2011)

Rest looks sweet. 

Finally obsolete the whisker biscuit!

But.....what's up with iphone? Is it mounted to a sight bracket?


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## Marvin (Feb 17, 2005)

Firenock said:


> It is a full containment rest WITH minimum friction. And AeroRest is meant to be use on all bows (crossbow included)


 so i'm going to gain what? 2 FPS? have more fletching contact AND have a rest more critical of form flaws? full containment = red herring


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## The Pope (Dec 4, 2011)

ahhhh hummmm ,
Again Sir..... what is that electronic contraption , app , pod thing with a level and looks looks a light ring ????????


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## skynight (Nov 5, 2003)

The Pope said:


> ahhhh hummmm ,
> Again Sir..... what is that electronic contraption , app , pod thing with a level and looks looks a light ring ????????


http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=1640999


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## TheScOuT (May 9, 2011)

I think it looks awesome, nice work looking into the future of archery and developing new technology.


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## MOC (Jul 4, 2003)

Bust on this guy all you want, but he's one of those minds that thinks outside of the box. He doesn't remember it, I'm sure, but I met him at the Iowa Deer Classic a couple years ago. He had a Firenock booth. Right away, I asked what they cost, and man did he light into me (in a good way). Basically, telling me that I needed to know how Firenocks worked and how they were constructed and then he'd tell me what they cost. 

I liked his style at the time, and I still do.


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## Firenock (Nov 5, 2006)

aread said:


> One other thing that I was wondering about - if you have the arrow held firmly on three sides, where does the oscilation flex go? I see that the rollers in contact with the arrow are spring loaded, but they will still restrict the arrow flex during the power stroke. The degree of restriction will depend on the force applied by the springs.


It is really not a good idea to PIN down the arrow as it will really restrict the arrow flex. The spring loading is for ultra light spin arrows as they need all the help to shot right! For most people who shot regular bow and 350 spine arrow, with that 0.010" of space on top, you can technically tighten down the rest and be done.


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## N2T (Jan 27, 2007)

Ahh, I see, so with the spacers in, you just tighten them all down the same till you get a tight fit on your arrow. You don't have to individually tighten them each to their own lengths to fit the arrow, I get it now, nifty. Congrats on making a really interesting product, can't wait to see what's next.


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## Firenock (Nov 5, 2006)

Marvin said:


> so i'm going to gain what? 2 FPS? have more fletching contact AND have a rest more critical of form flaws? full containment = red herring


This rest was originally design to be a crossbow rest, I just happen to think it also will work as a great vertical bow rest. Thus the extra adjustment and mounting positions. As for fletching contact, I doubt it will have any at all. Especially if you use any of my Aerovane as they are straight fletched.


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## MELLY-MEL (Dec 22, 2008)

Looks cool. Definately like to see a level. I am also concerned about dust, and dir along with moisture binding up the ball rollers.


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## Marvin (Feb 17, 2005)

Firenock said:


> This rest was originally design to be a crossbow rest, I just happen to think it also will work as a great vertical bow rest. Thus the extra adjustment and mounting positions. As for fletching contact, I doubt it will have any at all. Especially if you use any of my Aerovane as they are straight fletched.


 that is a great idea for a crossbow..good luck


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

Firenock said:


> As I wrote above
> 
> The use of ceramic as a contact point is where it is so different. With the hardness of zirconia nitrate with the value of Mohs >8.7, it is just >10% softer than diamond. (Example, for those who have seen old watches, the phase like 21 jewels is for hard surfaces (ruby Mohs 9.0) for the shafts of rotating surface to make contact with, so it will not wear) The reason of 2 balls is that the spring wear surface is actually minimized between the 2 balls which both are hard ceramic and ABEC#5. The only place left is the lip of the cup which holds the first ceramic which I use Type III anodizing (not pretty, sort of a greenish yellow) which give me >0.001" of aluminum oxide. Which is also consider as a ceramic. So it is a technically a life time rest, IMHO. As for friction point of view, the use of 2 ceramic ball is to minimize the friction between the spring and the contact ball. As the spring will have a full contact circle with the first ball, the spring tension is transfer to the contact ball by the smaller ceramic ball; which the contact surface is reduce to the the tangent tolerance of BOTH balls which in this case <0.000,2".
> 
> As for noise, try to put 2 ceramic plates together to form a valley. Pull the arrow through, and there is no noise. Should I say more!


EXCELLENT work, Dorge.

As close as you can get to a frictionless, passive bearing.

Put me on your waiting list for the micro-adjustable, target rest.


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## cinchup1973 (Oct 19, 2011)

*engineering*

Yea ya need to leave the guy alone about his product, were you an investor I could see ya critisizing him. My self , I'd rather purchase a product from an individual that had the integrity to over design somthing, rather than purchase from a company that underbuilt and outsoursed it to the chinese. 
KEEP UP THe good work!


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## tjb1 (Jun 23, 2011)

Cant wait until you ego strokers buy this...the ball containers are not sealed nor can they be sealed because of the movement needed to load the arrow. As soon as one ball collapses in to accept the arrow, there is a direct path into the "sealed" area for dirt, sand, etc... You can't put any grease or oil inside because then that kills the magical frictionless abec#5 ceramic silicon carbide bearing surface. 

I honestly cant wait until all you ego stroking AT *imagineers* get one of these and then come here and ***** about trying to set up all the different contact point and the bearings not moving anymore because a spec of dirt got into the container. And to the one poster earlier, I am so sure you work at Coca Cola :wink: Too many Mechanical Engineers in the world and not enough Engineers with real world experience beyond a Solidworks test. You can't test everything in Solidworks...


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## Mig (Nov 26, 2008)

tjb1 said:


> Cant wait until you ego strokers buy this...the ball containers are not sealed nor can they be sealed because of the movement needed to load the arrow. As soon as one ball collapses in to accept the arrow, there is a direct path into the "sealed" area for dirt, sand, etc... You can't put any grease or oil inside because then that kills the magical frictionless abec#5 ceramic silicon carbide bearing surface.
> 
> I honestly cant wait until all you ego stroking AT *imagineers* get one of these and then come here and ***** about trying to set up all the different contact point and the bearings not moving anymore because a spec of dirt got into the container. And to the one poster earlier, I am so sure you work at Coca Cola :wink: Too many Mechanical Engineers in the world and not enough Engineers with real world experience beyond a Solidworks test. You can't test everything in Solidworks...


How many companies with multiple engineers come out with a product that becomes a flop or has major issues. I bet a couple. Those companies also get things mass produced which makes a lot of their products cheaper. Dorge is engineering this stuff by himself and spending a lot of his money on getting these things manufactured because it's not mass produced. That's why some of his things are more expensive. His fletching device $900. That's if you get multiple components for it. I can see a PROFESSIONAL ARCHER getting it or some shops. But the basic user will get the base fletcher with a couple components. People will spend lots of $$$ on something they love to do. Those archers that are serious would be this jig. I've heard people complain about plastic fletchers because they're inconsistent. Well then they can buy this jig then. 

He's doing this because this is what he loves. I've done multiple designs on stuff similar but never got to the phases of actually going through with the designs and making the product. PROPS TO HIM. I believe this rest WILL be better then a whisker biscuit and a hostage rest. I can name a couple other rests that if you get excess dirt and debris in, that they won't operate efficiently....guess what...they still sell! I don't know what your problem is. I've worked with people, who have actually been fired, that have the same attitude as you. You have to look at every design as a step forward for improvement. You sir, or should I say child, don't have that thought process. There are plenty of other rests on the market and if YOU don't like it then just get something else. but if you like the whisker biscuit or hostage but hate bristles, then this is an OPTION for them. In the mean time, pull that stick out of your butt.


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## tjb1 (Jun 23, 2011)

Mig said:


> How many companies with multiple engineers come out with a product that becomes a flop or has major issues. I bet a couple. Those companies also get things mass produced which makes a lot of their products cheaper. Dorge is engineering this stuff by himself and spending a lot of his money on getting these things manufactured because it's not mass produced. That's why some of his things are more expensive. His fletching device $900. That's if you get multiple components for it. I can see a PROFESSIONAL ARCHER getting it or some shops. But the basic user will get the base fletcher with a couple components. People will spend lots of $$$ on something they love to do. Those archers that are serious would be this jig. I've heard people complain about plastic fletchers because they're inconsistent. Well then they can buy this jig then.
> 
> He's doing this because this is what he loves. I've done multiple designs on stuff similar but never got to the phases of actually going through with the designs and making the product. PROPS TO HIM. I believe this rest WILL be better then a whisker biscuit and a hostage rest. I can name a couple other rests that if you get excess dirt and debris in, that they won't operate efficiently....guess what...they still sell! I don't know what your problem is. I've worked with people, who have actually been fired, that have the same attitude as you. You have to look at every design as a step forward for improvement. You sir, or should I say child, don't have that thought process. There are plenty of other rests on the market and if YOU don't like it then just get something else. but if you like the whisker biscuit or hostage but hate bristles, then this is an OPTION for them. In the mean time, pull that stick out of your butt.


Its too bad the AT professionals here cant see the flaws. Ill see you in the "Worst purchase" thread shortly.

I have pointed them out, he can fix them before spending all his money on producing them or continue to produce them with said flaws. Last time I checked, this release wasn't for sale yet and that means changes can still be made. And sorry, I wasn't talking about EXCESS dirt. If all tolerances are like he specified, a grain of salt would screw this up. Go play in Autocad or Paint...


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## Mig (Nov 26, 2008)

Autocad is crap by the way. Haha


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

Mig said:


> He's doing this because this is what he loves. I've done multiple designs on stuff similar but never got to the phases of actually going through with the designs and making the product. PROPS TO HIM. I believe this rest WILL be better then a whisker biscuit and a hostage rest.



Hello Mig:

Ceramic ball on ceramic ball,
supported by a spring,
where the base of the spring contacts an o-ring
where the o-ring provides cushioning
between the base of the spring and the machined threaded dowel

to control spring pressure on the two in-line ceramic balls.

Excellent design.

If Dorge needs/wants some assistance with prototype testing
or design consultation....

I volunteer my services.


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## Firenock (Nov 5, 2006)

*WARRANTY AND REFUND (Worst purchase, not happening here!)*

Like everything Firenock sells via our web store, I offer a 30 days un-conditional warranty, refund (including shipping) and exchange. If one cannot decide if the product is good enough for him/her in 30 days, what can I say. It would hardly be the worst purchase anyone would purchase as one only will lose the shipping cost back to me if they for whatever reason decide not to keep it or it is not what they wanted. 

BOLD LETTERS on my web store Front!
*We are so confident on how well our product will perform for you, that we offer you a 30 days no question asked refund and exchange policy on all Firenock™ brand products that are purchase from this web store. The refund also includes the shipping that you pay to ship the product(s) to you, we do however do not refund the shipping cost from you back to us.*

Do I dislike someone just abuse the product and send it back in 30 days. ABSOLUTELY! But that would only happen once as I keep a record of every single sale I have since 2006 October to current on multiple database. Being a seasoned DBA and PMP do have it benefits. Below is Firenock's warranty policy in full text and link for your information. I stand behind my product in writing, and that is all I have to say to issue(s) with worst purchase ever.

http://www.firenock.com/main.php?page=warranty

WARRANTY
Firenock LLC provides a limited warranty on lighted nock products sold in the U.S.A.

Firenock™ brand lighted nocks are unconditionally(1) warranted from the date of purchase for 30 days. Lightning Nock™ brand lighted nock and all accessories carry a warranty against DOA (Dead On Arrival). 

In the event of a failure due to defects in materials or workmanship, the liability of Firenock, LLC shall be limited to the lesser of the cost of repairing or replacing the broken part within the stated warranty period.

(1) Use any Firenock lighted nock in any bow fishing application without Firenock LLC approved arrow or adaptor is the only condition that fall out of the unconditional warranty; lifetime replacement do apply on all Firenock brand lighted nock.

Warranty Claim Procedure:
Please send in your warranty claim product to Firenock LLC, 511 Robert Street, Henry, Illinois 61537-1146. Within the first 30 days of our unconditional warranty period, it will be replaced or repaired free of charge without handling charges and return postage. In any instance, Firenock LLC cannot make a monetary refund for any product unless it was purchased from Firenock web store or purchase from Firenock directly within 30 days of purchase.


LIFETIME REPLACEMENT / UPGRADE / SIDE-GRADE
For a small shipping and handling fee, Firenock LLC does offer a refresh/upgrade service for some products that purchase beyond the 30 days. This service is only available in the USA.

After the 30 day service fee free unconditional warranty period has ended, Firenock™ brand lighted nocks are eligible for refresh and Lightning Nock™ brand lighted nocks are eligible for upgrade. Your old Firenock / Lightning Nock circuit(s) and polycarbonate nocks can be refreshed / upgraded and you will receive working Firenock circuit(s) and new polycarbonate nock(s) for a small service fee.

As of February 2009 we have expanded the service to include side-grade. Firenock owners can now pick and choose any style, any model and any color of the Firenock he/she wanted for refresh. Which means if you decided to change arrows which have a different internal diameter (need a new style nock, from "C", "D", "F", "J", "Q", "S", "V", or "Y" to "A", or "E" and vice versa), or if you decided that you prefer a different model of circuit (hunting, to target, to intermittence and vice versa), or a different color of LED (blue, clear, green, orange, red and yellow), or a different color of nock (blue, clear, green, orange, red, oak, pink, smoke and yellow in case of the "S" style); please include those specifics when you send your Firenock back for refresh/side-grade/lifetime replacement warranty. If you do not specify the nock color, nock style, circuit LED color, and circuit model; the same nock, style, model, and color will be send back to your under this service. This service is only valid when funds are sent along with the lighted nock(s) and circuit(s). This service is subject to change without notice and can be terminated at anytime. 

Refresh Services Procedures: ( refresh order form in pdf )
Please send your old Firenock/Lightning nock circuit(s) and polycarbonate nocks with funds to Firenock LLC, 511 Robert Street, Henry, IL 61537-1146 (see below for service fee). Please do not send any O-rings or batteries. We cannot be responsible for anything that is not part of the refresh service. Batteries and O-rings are not part of the refresh service as they are considered consumable, if you need them please make sure you add them to your refresh service order. Shipping and handling is included in the service fee for this refresh service.

The service fee for refresh service is as follows (Shipping and handling charge is included):
$10.00 for 1 Firenock
$12.00 for 1 Lightning Nock
$25.00 for 3 Firenocks
$33.00 for 3 Lightning Nocks

Additional accessories can be purchased at the following price along with the refresh service without incurring shipping and handling fee:
$10.95 for [BR] or [BL] pack (3 batteries and 3 battery-pin O-rings)
$9.95 for any of the 6 Extreme Shock Battery End Cap packs ([XA], [XC], [XE], [XF/D/J/Q/V], [XS], or [XY])
$9.95 for any of the 8 styles of nock pack in up to 9 colors in 7-pack
$2.00 for [OB] pack (7 O-rings for batteries)
$2.00 for [OA], [OE], [OS], or [OY] O-ring pack (7 O-rings for "A", "E" or "S", or "Y" style Firenock)
$5.00 for [OC] pack (3 entire sets of O-ring for "C" or "F" style Firenock)


DISCLAIMER
Firenock, LLC is not responsible for any personal / property harm to the end user, any equipment, or any other matter due to misuse, misapplication, improper installation, or any other form of misuse or abuse of any Firenock LLC product. (It is strongly recommended that any installation of a Firenock, LLC product is done after one has read and understood the instruction(s) that come with each product or one should consult an experienced, qualified, and competent Pro Shop for the safety of you and your equipment.)

Firenock, LLC is not responsible for any copied / reproduced information, pictures, and catalogues in part, or in whole as shown on other Web Pages.

Firenock, LLC retains the right to modify any product as seen fit by Firenock, LLC at any time without prior notice.


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## Roskoes (Jun 17, 2007)

This looks like a great target rest to me. Not so sure about it's application for hunting. I guess time will tell on it's real world acceptance.


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## kenny_TNT_tv (Dec 22, 2010)

I will be using on my new Strother Moxie target bow when they are available. Looks good Dorge!


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## mainehunt (Sep 11, 2006)

tjb1 said:


> You do know .00001mm is 40 times finer than the wavelength of violet light? and is currently not possible on something like this?
> 
> But hey, if you want to spend $900 on a fletching device that relies on the placement of the laser using your EYE to get a vane to a supposed 1/72 degree accuracy go ahead. Dont point stuff out and he will continue to add stupid things to it, if he is so concerned about weight then tell me why there are 2 ball bearings when they offer no rolling motion because of the spring tension directly on the ball bearing? You could use 1 and save all that extra weight.
> 
> You may all think *im acting like an ass,* and I partially am. But if you do look at the design flaws like the 2 ball bearings...that cant move. Those can be removed before he starts production and save himself a ton of money. Im an ass, but im helping.


YOU said it, we didn't..............................


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## tjb1 (Jun 23, 2011)

mainehunt said:


> YOU said it, we didn't..............................


Another *imagineer* 

I dont care what you all think, I provided feedback. Its harsh, but its feedback. I know if I was making a product I would like feedback on it. But it seems you are too busy stroking each others ego in here to provide real feedback, and when someone does we all have to jump on each other and hug each other and form a circle to disprove the real feedback. Go buy one with the current design and tell me how it works, I dare you.


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## mtn3531 (Mar 6, 2009)

tjb1 said:


> I only need to say one thing...how much money does Coca-Cola make a year? And how much does your company make a year?
> 
> They are most likely doing improvements to make things cheaper...you on the other hand are using carbide and titanium for the name. Carbide is still heavier than steel and is overkill for this application, a whisker biscuit uses fibers and lasts for a long time...spring steel rests contact the arrow with very small areas and last damn near forever. Carbide is a complete waste in this application, also you have 2 balls in the supports...not sure why because one cant spin against the other because of spring pressure so those extra ball bearings appear to be a complete waste and the arrow is most likely going to slip on the ball before the ball slips on the other ball or even slips on the spring.
> 
> ...


are you finished blowing your own horn? if you don't like what materials and design components he is using, then move along to another thread


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## goofy2788 (Aug 14, 2005)

tjb1 said:


> Another *imagineer*
> 
> I dont care what you all think, I provided feedback. Its harsh, but its feedback. I know if I was making a product I would like feedback on it. But it seems you are too busy stroking each others ego in here to provide real feedback, and when someone does we all have to jump on each other and hug each other and form a circle to disprove the real feedback. Go buy one with the current design and tell me how it works, I dare you.


I have a better idea for you....instead of coming out here and pointing out your percieved design flaws why don't you question his design in a respectful manner and if you think you can imporve it offer suggestions to him. If you're unwilling to do that then keep your opinions to yourself.


Now with that said....looking a the rest it seems to be a little over complicated in it's design. This coming from a self proclaimed engineer idiot :wink: I have zero background in enginerring and with all the technical talk am totally lost at to how this rest actually functions. Any way you can dumb it down for us "*******" archers out here?

I can say I like the idea of a minimal contact point, full containment rest. I've never been a fan of the whisker biscuit or the hostage rest due to the fact that you get uneven bristle wear and no qurantee that each shot is going to leave the rest the same. Will this, having the 3 "prongs", be able to consistantly produce the same pressure at each point of contact allowing a consistant and repeatable flight with each shot?


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## Super 91 (Feb 28, 2006)

goofy2788 said:


> I have a better idea for you....instead of coming out here and pointing out your percieved design flaws why don't you question his design in a respectful manner and if you think you can imporve it offer suggestions to him. If you're unwilling to do that then keep your opinions to yourself.


What he said, X 1,000,000

It is fine to not like someones design, but to act like the grade school bully, calling names and trying to degrade the design and the inventor leaves your credibility in the dirt. You might know what you are talking about, but your presentation stinks. Most people are responding to the way you presented yourself rather than what you presented. Now if you can present some real facts and back it documented testing, we might....and I do mean "might" listen at this point.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

goofy2788 said:


> I have a better idea for you....instead of coming out here and pointing out your percieved design flaws why don't you question his design in a respectful manner and if you think you can imporve it offer suggestions to him. If you're unwilling to do that then keep your opinions to yourself.
> 
> 
> Now with that said....looking a the rest it seems to be a little over complicated in it's design. This coming from a self proclaimed engineer idiot :wink: I have zero background in enginerring and with all the technical talk am totally lost at to how this rest actually functions. Any way you can dumb it down for us "*******" archers out here?
> ...



Hello goofy2788:

I AM an engineer, and have built some very expensive systems for NASA,
and am now working on medical implants (extremely high precision artificial discs for the neck and backbone).

Dorge has a 3 point support system for full containment, inside a ring.
So, instead of "whiskers"...Dorge is using bowling balls...very small bowling balls, but still a bowling ball.

The material he is using is just a SKOSH less hard than diamond...."mohs scale hardness".
So, these SUPER DUPER hardness bowling balls will spin like your best bowling ball on a freshly oiled lane.

So,
since Dorge is a fan of crazy precision,
he has this bowling ball (larger, outside one) inside a smokestack (launch tube). So, the hole on the launch tube/smokestack
is smaller than the diameter of the bowling ball,
so the ball cannot escape, but it can spin around.


Ever look at the ball bearing support tables for a table saw outfeed table?
Same idea, except Dorge's bowling balls are MUCH MUCH harder than steel.


So,
instead of JUST a ball bearing support cup, and ONE bowling ball...

Dorge went the EXTRA step, and put a smaller bowling ball below the larger bowling ball.

The smokestack is double drilled....the smaller bowling ball fits into the smaller pilot hole.
The top portion of the smokestack is drilled out to fit the LARGER bowling ball.


So,
going back to the bowling ball example.

If you are a bowler,
you have SOFT bowling balls....rubber ones,
that GRIP the bowling lane like a race tire.

Then,
you have bowlers who like bowling balls that do NOT GRIP, but SKID down the lane.
These are the HARD PLASTIC bowling balls.

So,
Dorge has bowling balls that are almost as HARD as DIAMOND,
so a tiny SUPER HARD bowling ball supporting the larger SUPER HARD bowling ball,
will skid against each other...slicker than SNOT.

So,
why support the DOUBLE STACK of bowling balls on a spring?

Cuz arrows bend and wobble like MAD, when you first release the arrow.


Target shooters use a flexible spring steel blade (feeler gauge metal)
to help the arrow settle down.

Dorge is using a TRIPLE stack of smokestacks with double BOWLING BALLS, that are spring loaded,
to help the arrow SETTLE DOWN and fly straight.

The springs are ADJUSTABLE FORCE,
so you can FINE TUNE how much support (STIFF, MEDIUM, LIGHT)
you want to use.


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## ArchersParadox (May 12, 2005)

tjb1 said:


> Cant wait until you ego strokers buy this...the ball containers are not sealed nor can they be sealed because of the movement needed to load the arrow. As soon as one ball collapses in to accept the arrow, there is a direct path into the "sealed" area for dirt, sand, etc... You can't put any grease or oil inside because then that kills the magical frictionless abec#5 ceramic silicon carbide bearing surface.
> 
> I honestly cant wait until all you ego stroking AT *imagineers* get one of these and then come here and ***** about trying to set up all the different contact point and the bearings not moving anymore because a spec of dirt got into the container. And to the one poster earlier, I am so sure you work at Coca Cola :wink: Too many Mechanical Engineers in the world and not enough Engineers with real world experience beyond a Solidworks test. You can't test everything in Solidworks...


....No Mechanical Engineering here.....too easy in my opinion when I made my decision on which engineering field to choose in college.....Master's in Electrical Engineering...23 years of real-world experience specializing in Automation Controls ranging from Natural Gas Pipeline Gas Turbine Stations....to Water & Waste Water Treatment Plants....to high level controls at Federal Penitentiaries....to the Food, Beverage, and Pharmaceutical Industries....to the Automotive both Domestic and Imported and their 1st/2nd tier suppliers....to the aluminum can making industries.....


I have "fixed" more than enough flawed mechanical designs because some wannabe mechanical engineer could not see beyond himself in his design...usually during the commissioning phase of a project where a TON of money is standing around...and even more money is not being made because of lost production.....

.....Your critique of Dorge is downright WRONG....and I take great OFFENSE to those words......Dorge is semi-retired now.....and in his career he has accomplished a lot of grand engineering achievements.....

...since I surmise that you, too are an engineer..............what say your credentials...pray tell?

...a good mechanical engineer designs with serviceability in mind....nothing more..nothing less....

In my "industry"......a good electrical controls engineer has to understand the Mechanical and Electrical Design of a system.......


...your arguments are "reaching" at best........I have bow hunted and shot archery for 35 years......I have yet to get my hunting bows in the condition you described where a FOD could impede into the contact areas....


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## Edsel (Oct 1, 2011)

*I DO NOT UNDERSTAND THE NEED FOR ALL THIS BASHING. *

Nothing but negative comments, no constructive suggestions, just tirades. 

What for? Does it make you a better person? Have your ideas contributed the slightest degree of betterment to anyone?

Not really.

*FASCINATING.*

Again,

*WHAT FOR.*


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## goofy2788 (Aug 14, 2005)

N & B thanks for the response. That does help me understand it more. I currently use the spring steel. I've been looking for a rest that can be more consistant with arrow flight shot after shot. This just might be the one to do that.


Also I've got to say it's nice seeing you post again. I know you went missing there for awhile. I pretty much did the same. :wink:


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## Edsel (Oct 1, 2011)

"Oh, that's not how my shop and my hunting cap and my goatee and my tattoos have done it for the past fifteen years."

"Oh, all this lab equipment is nothing but technobabble crap."

"Oh, that really wouldn't ever work in the field."

"Oh, that doesn't really translate into any real - world difference."

"Oh, I'm a five - time champion, and I didn't need any of that to win me my trophies."

"Oh, none of that would make a difference in felling my next buck."

Why don't we go back to whittling our own bows from wood?

*THAT

WOULD

BE

AWESOME.*


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## goofy2788 (Aug 14, 2005)

Edsel said:


> *I DO NOT UNDERSTAND THE NEED FOR ALL THIS BASHING. *
> 
> Nothing but negative comments, no constructive suggestions, just tirades.
> 
> ...


What for you ask.....that's easy so some computer cowboy can self stroke his ego by attempting to make himself look smarter then everyone else. Instead said computer cowboy has done nothing but made himslef look like an egotistical jerk that irregardless of how much valitidy his questions may have noone will give him the time of day.


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## hoyt em all (Feb 20, 2005)

what if you load the arrow wrong (180) and hit all 3 post hard?


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

goofy2788 said:


> N & B thanks for the response. That does help me understand it more. I currently use the spring steel. I've been looking for a rest that can be more consistant with arrow flight shot after shot. This just might be the one to do that.
> 
> 
> Also I've got to say it's nice seeing you post again. I know you went missing there for awhile. I pretty much did the same. :wink:


I hear ya. Sometimes, a vacation (self-imposed) helps to re-focus.

I also use a spring steel arrow rest. 
Set the blade angle at a very low 30 degrees, to provide some support,
to provide cushioning to get the arrow to settle down.

Dorge's arrow rest,
is a three-way shock absorber arrow rest.

The two shock absorbers on the bottom can be set at ONE stiffness,
and
the top shock absorber (if you use it), can be set at a different stiffness.

As Dorge has stated,
you can also remove the top shock absorber...

and then,
you have a "bowling ball" in-line smokestack version of the BoDoodle arrow rest (two spring steel lever arms).


So,
I think the Dorge Design has merit...potential.

Ceramic bowling balls
Beryllium springs
aluminum (probably) housings and threaded dowels

nothing to rust.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

hoyt em all said:


> what if you load the arrow wrong (180) and hit all 3 post hard?


Cuz the smokestacks are round....

IF you had the nock turned the wrong position,
so that the 3 vanes perfectly lined up...in line with the three smokestacks....

you might tear off one vane...
but the vanes would probably strike the smokestacks slightly off center,
and the nock would rotate
and the arrow would continue forwards...
and the vanes might get a small dent...wrinkle.


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## tgridley (Sep 28, 2005)

loadmaster87 said:


> Tjb1 why are you bashing a man's business and product? If you don't like it keep you're mouth shut and move on and don't buy the product. And so what if Dorge over engineers things it's his company to run as he chooses and if more companies would put the time and effort into their products like he does then I could only imagine the quality and innovation of the products that would be out there. And I really don't mean to start a pissing match but not very respectful to Dorge a man you obviously don't know bashing his product and saying his designs are just plain stupid.(2. A .00001 finish on a vane is just plain stupid) ARCHERS HELPING ARCHERS MY FRIEND.


I'm thinking because Tbj1 is a total jerk.


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## Mordekyle (Aug 8, 2011)

Is anyone else wondering if tbj1 is available to give motivational speeches?


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## Firenock (Nov 5, 2006)

*iBowSight?*



The Pope said:


> ahhhh hummmm ,
> Again Sir..... what is that electronic contraption , app , pod thing with a level and looks looks a light ring ????????


you mean my iBowSight?


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## Bowtechie (Jan 20, 2003)

Makes me want to go out and get an Iphone. Very cool. Any plans for a Sprint Galaxy S2?


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## Super 91 (Feb 28, 2006)

I'm guessing this app will work with the ipod or just the iphone. And what about wet weather? Do you have a cover or something?

Very nice thought Dorge. Quite a few usable features. And customizable. Archers love to customize their stuff. They will be playing with this all day long....or maybe all week!!


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## Firenock (Nov 5, 2006)

Due to the poor camera ability of iPod touch, at this moment, iPhone 4 is the lowest specification I would go for if I am going to hunt with it, iPhone 4S would be what I would use. That is if you want good video and fast on screen responds. That is also why even when the iPhone 4 is out, with the retina display it is good enough, but iPhone4S is what make it launch it. Should be on the iTune store any day now. Apple is reviewing it.

A better video (take 2)


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## mainehunt (Sep 11, 2006)

Is there any possibility that the hard ceramic balls will cause damage to the softer arrow shaft?

Kev


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## Firenock (Nov 5, 2006)

mainehunt said:


> Is there any possibility that the hard ceramic balls will cause damage to the softer arrow shaft?
> Kev


So far with the few arrows that Jim (the co-inventor) had tried in different archery shops in Iowa for demo and testing purposes on a preproduction model, it does not seems to have an issue.


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## 187 BOWHUNTER (Feb 13, 2011)

just lookin at the design pic hurts my brain


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## Make It Happen (Oct 26, 2010)

Dorge you might be the smartest person I have ever spoken with! You have a good outside the pocket thought process that comes up with some great ideas like the Steve Jobs of archery. At least you take you talent and use it in a positive way. Whether or not the new product works or sells well keep coming up with new ideas. It's people like you who move archery forward and not backwards. Thank you for sharing your ideas and keep them coming Sir.


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## jeeperforlife (Jun 20, 2007)

Will this mechanism provide enough travel to account for arrow flex while the arrow is in contact while in full capture setup? 
Or am I really overestimating the flex of an arrow at launch?


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## BowHuntnKY (Dec 10, 2008)

Dorge. Any chance u cant get one to steve down in granville and we can play with it and give our honest opinions? I can even pick t up on my way to his place lol.

Scott


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## Bullseyehunter (Jan 5, 2009)

loadmaster87 said:


> tjb1 why are you bashing a man's business and product? If you don't like it keep you're mouth shut and move on and don't buy the product. And so what if dorge over engineers things it's his company to run as he chooses and if more companies would put the time and effort into their products like he does then i could only imagine the quality and innovation of the products that would be out there. And i really don't mean to start a pissing match but not very respectful to dorge a man you obviously don't know bashing his product and saying his designs are just plain stupid.(2. A .00001 finish on a vane is just plain stupid) archers helping archers my friend.


x 2


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## Firenock (Nov 5, 2006)

jeeperforlife said:


> Will this mechanism provide enough travel to account for arrow flex while the arrow is in contact while in full capture setup?
> Or am I really overestimating the flex of an arrow at launch?


There are plenty of travel for the first/contact ceramic ball and each is also spring loaded and adjustable. if you look at the hostage rest, the maximum height of the brush is actually shorter than the travel of the contact ceramic ball itself. Each ball can do up to 3.5mm travel if needed.


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## Firenock (Nov 5, 2006)

For those who asked, below is a 3D drawing for the AeroRest with micro adjust in 3D. And since I moved a few picture around, below are all the picture which I had posted for this thread


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## Firenock (Nov 5, 2006)

I have pushed back the release date of AeroRest due to a few changes, at this time, we are expecting the end of March, 2012

The AeroRest has went through some changes since I show it at 6th December 2011:
1) There will be 6 mounting options instead of 4 so it will work much better on crossbow with optional mounts
2) the black version will no longer be made, only the deep green olive as all main parts (c-Frame, side bar, bow mount, and 3 cups on the fingers) will be anodizing in level 3, or no less than 3 mil in thickness
3) all fasteners besides the tiny set screw on the bow mount will be GR2 titanium
4) all fasteners will be metric besides the bow mounting screw, which will be 5/16-24
5) all fasteners besides the tiny set screw on the bow mount which is hex while all other will be TORX®
6) the side bar of the arrow rest will have 3 sets of laser markings for easier visual adjustment
7) the main body of the 3 fingers will be 5 mm taller to cover the spring tension adjustment screw.
8) there will be no O-ring on the finger's main body to the c-frame for reliable and solid adjustment of arrow diameter
9) the adjustment of arrow diameter will be done via GR2 titanium spacer which is 0.11mm and 0.44mm, reason as stated above
10) each AeroRest comes with 6 of each titanium spacer, total 12
11) for those who use smaller arrow that require more spacer, the titanium spacer set is going to be sell for $9.95 per 12, 6 of each which will allow you to use Easton Injection and VAP super super thin shaft when stacked.
12) Correction on the total contact surface, it should be 0.000,000,8 square inches should be the theoretical contact surface with the arrow as ABEC#5 has a tangent of 0.000,2"
13) the price is going to be the same for standard one which will be olive green in color, $89.95
14) the price of the super micro adjust one is going to be $174.95 and it is schedule to be delivered by mid to late April, and be sold via our web store only at this time due to price. 
15) the mounting options can only be selected once and it need to be super glue to the C-frame once the archery decide which way the arrow orientation is going to be.
16) The 2 parts in the main body, spring tension screw and the main body will be level 2 anodized and in black due to tolerance and give.
17) the target weight of the AeroRest with 12 titanium spacer and the bow mount screw will be under 1.5 oz or about 40 grams


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## Firenock (Nov 5, 2006)

Just got the production model off the factory. They looked better than I thought and it is sure better than the prototype. I especially like the weight as what shown is the actually deal where everything: Washers, bolts and all. The standard and micro adjust ones are shown below. What do you think?


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## alfabuck (Dec 12, 2008)

I really like the design , you never cease to amaze me with your innovative ideas. What an awesome looking rest.


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## ProtecMan (Apr 14, 2003)

Firenock,
Why don't you just run your polished aluminum parts thru the sealer tank instead of anodizing them all green? I like the looks of the aluminum colored rest!


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## Firenock (Nov 5, 2006)

It is hard aluminum oxide! When you do 3MIL or thicker of aluminum oxide anodizing with no color pigment, it is what the nature color of aluminum oxide, a gun grey green. the basic sealer will scratch easy and I want to provide the best and hardest finish there is.


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## ProtecMan (Apr 14, 2003)

Firenock said:


> It is hard aluminum oxide! When you do 3MIL or thicker of aluminum oxide anodizing with no color pigment, it is what the nature color of aluminum oxide, a gun grey green. the basic sealer will scratch easy and I want to provide the best and hardest finish there is.


That makes sense. Interesting concept and a great idea!


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## Firenock (Nov 5, 2006)

The Camo ones will be off to the dippers tomorrow or Tuesday. And the natural ones should be out to dealers by Thursday. And we shall fill all pre orders by this coming Friday. At last. I am shipping those.


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## Firenock (Nov 5, 2006)

And I got the first batch of AeroRest finished in MIL spec Anodizing. Now the last part, laser.... Seems forever... By the way, for those who knows, the finish of the AeroRest is the same as what Fuji uses on its guide, (hardloy), just it is 1/2 the thickness. What do you think? I personally think the natural color of aluminum oxide is quite good looking, not to mention the natural shades it added to the depth of grey proved a granite look to the piece due to formation and crystallization (density) of the AL when formed









Below is our manual that comes with it, and the packaging.
Suggestion, correction, recommendation welcome.


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## meepstah (Jun 18, 2010)

> With the hardness of zirconia nitrate with the value of Mohs >8.7, it is just >10% softer than diamond.


This actually bothers me quite a bit. The Mohs scale is non-linear to the point of being nearly logarithmic; you're off by just over an order of magnitude with this statement.


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## Firenock (Nov 5, 2006)

meepstah said:


> This actually bothers me quite a bit. The Mohs scale is non-linear to the point of being nearly logarithmic; you're off by just over an order of magnitude with this statement.


I agree with what you said. I try to dump it down a little. It would sure sound out of this world when describing logarithmic to most. Or you think I should really reference Mohs value in full detail for those who know?
For those who like to know, The costing I am using is (AL2O3) with 52.9 per cent aluminium and 47.1 per cent oxygen. It hardness is (moh's scale 9).


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