# Marks on the shelf from vanes?



## bobnikon (Jun 10, 2012)

Well... First off you are holding your bow backwards... Sorry I couldn't resist. If you haven't got copies of the following, google and download, tuning for tens, the easton tuning guide, and the archers reference 5th edition. You have a clearance issue. I would start by cleaning off all the plastic from the shelf, turn the nocks slightly and then dust the area with talc. Look for marks. Repeat until you have as little marking of the talc as possible. Could also be a spine issue. You could also benefit from a lower profile vane. Other than that, there are many others on here who can give you much more detailed advice.


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## gma (Aug 22, 2012)

I wouldn't live with it no way. I know you say your tune is good, but this is a major clearance issue and that's an important part of tuning.

What's your tiller and how far above center is your nock point?

Also, it looks like the "streak" is closer to the riser on the back (closest to you) and further on the front (closest to the target). Interestingly, this is a great visualization of the path of the nock - and it's not where you want it to be. It even looks like the closest point is right under the plunger. So in addition to clearance over the shelf, I'd bet $$$ you're hitting your plunger and rest with the nock.

Give us the details on your setup.


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## cc46 (Jan 22, 2005)

Since you spoke of your elbow position and seeing the marks and the position of the plunger and what appears to be a short wire rest, and I don't see a clicker....I'm guessing you are pinching the arrow nock on your string and lifting the arrow off the rest and onto to shelf at release. 

Clearance marks should not be so pronounced.

Do you have any more pics of the wire rest? And how long beyond the rest is the point of the arrow at full draw?


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## Shinken (Nov 3, 2012)

Thanks for the help. So I need to fix this. 
Here is the information requested: The rest wire is very short and touches the arrow's belly 3/16" forward of the plunger button. I am using a clicker mounted on the sight bar and the arrows are 31 1/2" long. The clicker is 3" forward from the back of the riser, so the point of the arrow is 4 1/2 - 4 3/4" forward from the plunger button. Tiller is 7 1/8" on the top limb and 7" on the bottom limb. The brace height is 8 3/4" and the nock is 1/2" up from center. The vanes are 5/16" at the highest point of their profile and there is 1/4" clearance from the lowest crest of the vane to the shelf when the arrow is nocked and the string is not pulled back.

Additional pictures:

View attachment 1651185


View attachment 1651186


I am new at this so I wouldn't be surprised if I am pinching the nock. If that is the problem, how do you avoid that?


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## gma (Aug 22, 2012)

I know this is going to sound counter-intuitive (and counter to "conventional wisdom"), but give this a try.

First set your tiller to zero. Do this by loosening the upper limb bolt (assuming you have enough room for this adjustment), not tightening the lower. The reasoning behind loosening instead of tightening is, based on the initial streak I'd guess your arrows aren't fast enough to get into the nock-out position as they pass the riser, so we want to slow them down.

Then lower your nock point. You could go as low as having the arrow parallel to the string.

My suggestion here is based on my experience with a high-speed camera. I noticed with my initial setup - similar to yours with +1/8 tiller and a higher nock-point - that upon release the arrow would not follow a straight line (when viewed from the side) through the bow. The nock end of the arrow would be pushed down before the arrow released from the string. People refer to this as the limbs "not being progressive." This was imparting vertical rotation (point up, nock down) on the arrow. After reducing tiller and lowering nock point, I was able to get the arrow traveling straight through the bow.

That said, you probably have spine issues too. Give us the rest of your setup information -
- riser length
- limbs #, length, and brand/model
- Draw length and # on fingers (if you have it)
- Arrow brand/model, spine, point weight, and shaft length.

Very pretty riser/grip, btw.


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## Shinken (Nov 3, 2012)

Thank you, GMA. Here is the additional information that you request: The riser is a GMX 25". The limbs are Hoyt Excel marked at 32# AMO medium. I am not sure about the # on fingers but I have loosen the tiller bolts out quite a bit and my draw length is 28 1/2 maybe 28 3/4". The arrows are Carbon Impact Super Club 20/30 and they have a spine of 820 (although this may not be consistent for all arrows according to other posts on the forum). The point weights 80 grains and the shaft is 31 1/2".
Shooting the arrows fletched with vanes through paper under my current setup shows them flying straight and leaving a clean hole.


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## Shinken (Nov 3, 2012)

I am a bit puzzled after trying to do the adjustment recommended by GMA. I loosen up the top limb bolt a quarter turn and remeasured the tiller. Now the gap is more pronounced. I went from 7 1/8" TOP limb and 7" BOTTOM limb to almost 7 1/4" TOP and less than 7" BOTTOM. I will appreciate any suggestions to help me fix this clearance problem.


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## Green Ring (Aug 13, 2012)

I see this when using limbs that are 8# less than my current setup. I assumed this is due to the arrow being too stiff to bend enough to allow the tail to clear the shelf.

However, if anything it seems your shafts may be too weak. The Easton chart recommends 550-600 spine carbon arrows for your setup, much stiffer than your 820s.

Have you tried shooting bare shafts? Bare shafts may not have the clearance problem and will exhibit visibly bad flight if the spine/tune is far off.


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## Shinken (Nov 3, 2012)

Yes. I tried bare shafts and they fly together with the feathered ones exactly.


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## Topquark (Mar 6, 2013)

I shoot arrows that I think are too stiff (bare shafts group left of fletched), and was having a similar issue with marks on the riser from vanes on my CI SC 15/25's (uncut), but not as pronounced as yours (My DL is 28" and poundage is 23# on my fingers). 

I managed to clear up the contact issue by cleaning up my form: I was dropping my bow arm to bring the sight onto the target, and the line of force was pushing my arrows down onto the rest. By bending at the waist, keeping my bow arm up in line, and my string arm elbow up above the line of force, I no longer have clearance issues. Even baby powder on the riser/shelf shows no contact. I didn't make any other changes to my bow.

Just sharing what helped me. I'm pretty sure everyone else's form is a lot better than mine. Good luck diagnosing this!


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## jocala (Jan 26, 2013)

I had this issue when shooting too stiff 1820 vane/arrows from my oly tackle. Dropping down to 1716 arrows cured the problem for me.


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## Shinken (Nov 3, 2012)

So if the arrows could be the problem and since I can't anyhow shoot these arrows from 70 m because the sight gets in the way, can anyone suggest some other arrows that will work for my setup and can be shot from 70 m? They need to be affordable. I am thinking Carbon One but what spine so that they can be cut down to 28 1/2"?


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## cc46 (Jan 22, 2005)

Shinken, 

If your arrows are 3" past the riser and 31 1/2" long then your draw length is 28 1/2". 
If your limbs are marked 32# mediums on a 25" riser and the limb bolts are loosened almost all the way out then I estimate you have 31 pounds on the fingers.

If you want to shoot a 28 1/2" arrow and 31 pounds then look for a spine in the 650-700 range. 

Now if your current arrows are 820 spine and they are 3 " too long then they are grossly under spined and you should not be able to tune them. So the statement that they are stiff doesn't fit with the rest of the data. 

If I were you I'd cut these current arrows to 29" overall length, that will get the clicker on the clicker plate. And then tune with bare shafts and fletched and see if the 820 spine can be used. I doubt it if the specs stated are correct. But this would be a good step towards determining what arrows you could use for 70m.

Don't take this the wrong way, just trying to help.


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## Shinken (Nov 3, 2012)

I appreciate the help but I am a bit confused about the recommendations. I am sorry if I did not make myself clear on this: the current arrows with 820 spine and 31 1/2" length are tuned correctly to the bow (by bare shaft and walk back tuning). I would like to find arrows that are shorter at about 28 1/2" length because I am thinking that those will be lighter and reach 70 m. If I cut my current arrows, I suspect that they will become too stiff and I will not be able to tune them. Shouldn't I be looking for a spine of around 1000 and 28 1/2" length for the news arrows to tune to the current bow settings and limbs?


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## cc46 (Jan 22, 2005)

Hi again, 
Just re read this. So going to re cap a few thoughts.

Problem, arrows striking shelf. 
a) possible form problem, arrow nocks being pinched - not verified. Need an observer to watch/witness
b) arrow spine problem, believed to be too "stiff"
c) bare shafts claimed to strike with fletched, 
d) statement b and c contradict each other
e) paper tuning is not a good determination of tune for recurve, it is too dependent of postion away from bowclean holes at 5m may be left or right rips at 7m or 9m,
f) possibly the wire rest is too short


Specs, 
1) 31# on fingers
2) 31 1/2" arrow, Carbon Impact SC 20/30, 
3) spine noted to be 820 by a poster but not verified on CI web page 
4) 28 1/2" draw length

CI SC web page arrow selector indicates 20/30 shaft correct for 29 to 32# and 28 and 29 inch arrows, 5.7 gr/inch and 0.218" diametre.

This leads me to think that your CI SC arrows would be correct if cut to 29". But since they are 3" too long they will behave as if they are weak. This is a contradiction of the orginal statements that they are stiff. 

A comparative light arrow from Easton for 70 metres, selected from Easton shaft selector, is the ACE 670 for 28" and 31#s. ACE670s are 5.9 gr/inch and slightly larger diametre than your current arrows. So ACEs do not offer a weight or diametre advantage to the CI SC arrows you have. And the ACE670s would not work if they are left 3" too long.

I'm back to the same thoughts, 
-- verify there isn't a form problem, elbow and nock pinch
-- verify the rest wire is long enough, bend it out if necessary 
-- cut the arrow to 29"
-- try bareshaft tuning again
-- document the steps you take and what the result is. 

Hope this helps


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## horndog (Jan 5, 2009)

I don't know if this was mentioned: Take a bow square and measure you nock point from the center of your berger hole and report back with the results.


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## Shinken (Nov 3, 2012)

cc46, thank you for taking the time to go over this. I am not knowledgeable enough to understand some of your statements. I don't have anyone who can watch me shoot and I could rely on to interpret correctly what I am doing. I went through the "tuning for tens" steps when I bought this arrows and the arrows uncut at full length were acting stiff until I backed off the tiller poundage on the limbs. At that point the full length arrows were striking with the fletched ones. That's why I think that if I cut the arrows they will become too stiff and not tunable. I had tried to use the Easton chart before and I have found it to recommend arrows that are too stiff for my settings. This may all be a problem with my form more than anything else. Today I lowered the nock point from 1/2" to 1/4" and the marks on the riser shelf are not occurring any more except for one time and it just barely left an imprint on the last 1/2" inch of the shelf further away from me. I also noticed marks on my tab in the leather where it touches the nock of the arrow on the lower portion of the index finger as in the picture. I built up the thickness of the finger spacer but that did not seem to help. May be I need to trim that part of the leather tab? I really do appreciate everyone's help here. I am enjoying archery very much and I just regret not having access to a coach, so in lieu of that I ask questions here. 

View attachment 1652809


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## horndog (Jan 5, 2009)

My nock point is set at 0" and the trajectory is a true arc. With no dip in the middle. Try it.


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## gma (Aug 22, 2012)

Shinken said:


> I am a bit puzzled after trying to do the adjustment recommended by GMA. I loosen up the top limb bolt a quarter turn and remeasured the tiller. Now the gap is more pronounced. I went from 7 1/8" TOP limb and 7" BOTTOM limb to almost 7 1/4" TOP and less than 7" BOTTOM. I will appreciate any suggestions to help me fix this clearance problem.


Wait wait wait...I was mixed up. Your bow is doing what is expected. Loosen the bottom bolt if you have threads on the bolt for it. The goal is to get to zero tiller, and reduce poundage at the same time.

Keep in mind this is an experiment. I think it will help, but if not it should be easy to get back to your original tune and try other things.

Sorry about that.


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## ThomVis (Feb 21, 2012)

Shinken said:


> I also noticed marks on my tab in the leather where it touches the nock of the arrow on the lower portion of the index finger as in the picture. I built up the thickness of the finger spacer but that did not seem to help. May be I need to trim that part of the leather tab?
> View attachment 1652809


That's "normal" wear from the upper nocking point on the string, not the arrow nock itself. When you're pinching the arrow with the tab, you'll see an indentation in the upper or lower edge where the arrow nock sits. For trimming your tab, a good place to start are the Black Mamba Trimming Directions.


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## Shinken (Nov 3, 2012)

I shot some video (sorry about the quality) at 240 fps (tops for my camera) of the release. It looks like the arrow first arcs slightly up and quickly arcs way down below the rest wire and touches the shelf. Not only the vanes but the shaft itself seems to hit the shelf.

First shot at 18m.


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## Shinken (Nov 3, 2012)

Secong shot at 50m.


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## cc46 (Jan 22, 2005)

Okay gma, may be on to something.

I must admit I am sensitive to arrow tuning issues, so I might be over looking the other aspects. A one on one in person with an experienced shooter would help a lot. We are all a long way from you, but close on line. 

Anyway, if we assume the arrows do tune to the bow as is, then it's reasonable to play with nock height and tiller position. A strong bottom limb, relative to the upper limb will pull the string down a bit as it goes forward. And could slam the back of the arrow down into the rest and shelf. 

It's good you are looking at your tab. It looks normal. Do you think pull more with you upper finger or lower finger? We are all different. I pull mostly from the bottom finger and have a callus, and my tiller is always 1/8" + positive, say 7 1/4" top and 7 1/8 lower. Playing with this will change the timing forward of the limb tips and the angle of the string at the end of the shot cycle. I was watching a very experienced shooter yesterday and both limbs advanced equally and the tips vibrated very little and were synchonized, the bow was quiet.

Anyway, it's worth trying a few changes with string nock position and tiller with your limb bolts.


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## Shinken (Nov 3, 2012)

I have a callus on my middle finger. I just re-watched my video and I noticed that the bow rolls upon release, the upper limb back towards me and the bottom limb away from me. Could that be the problem?


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## gma (Aug 22, 2012)

It's not uncommon for bows to roll the way you describe. This is one of the positive side effects of a front stabilizer and weight. It both dampens that initial kick and then causes the bow to roll forward. But either way the arrow is gone before that motion begins so it shouldn't be causing you any problems.

Unfortunately I'm having trouble viewing the video here at work (shhh!  )...I'll take a look at home tonight.

But I agree the arrows are probably weak. This would compound problems caused by the limbs not being progressive. Arrows usually flex in the horizontal plane, induced by lateral movement impared by the fingers and plunger. But arrows can also bend in the vertical plane, induced by uneven forces of the limbs. That's what we're trying to zero-out. But the problem is exaggerated if the arrow flexes excessively.

You may be getting false indication of "good tune" because of the clearance issues. Once the arrows hit the riser, it just messes things up...any tuning beyond that is invalid.

I know it's going to be hard to cut your nice arrows, but I would take two or three and start cutting them down. Considering how long they are, I'd start with a couple inches...but others would probably be more conservative and go an inch at a time. If nothing else, consider it an experiment and learning experience.

Also, relax your bow hand. The point of the "relaxed" bow hand is to have zero muscle tension, eliminating variables and therefore increasing consistency. If the bow is correctly positioned in the palm, all the force will be held by the bones in the arm and no hand muscles will be needed.
Right now - completely relax your hand. Your fingers will curl. This is what your hand should look like on the bow. The "open hand" has somehow morphed from an exercise to "the way it should be done" - and people end up with muscle tension again.


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## Shinken (Nov 3, 2012)

So I tried the zero tiller. I did that first with the nock at 1/4" and that did not fix the problem. I thought it might be the arrows' nock being too tight around the string, so I tried a different set of arrows X7 1614 spine that fit the string more loosely. These arrows have feathers so I use the slow motion video to see hwat was happening and both types of arrows were doing the bobbing up first and down after so that from the middle of the shaft to the nock point it looks like they were touching the shelf. 
After that I went with the second modification recommended, I kept the tiller at zero and made the nocking point zero too. I shot more arrows with more video and though I don't see marks on the shelf from the vanes I see the arrows in the video doing the up and down thing. Interestingly, with the tiller at zero and the nocking point at zero I shot the best groupings ever. At 18 m I was hitting the same spot with the arrows side-to-side. I am at a lost. Thank you every one for helping.


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## Mulcade (Aug 31, 2007)

Try taking some video with your nose all the way back to your string elbow in the frame and watch the path of the release along with how your forearm looks at holding.


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## gma (Aug 22, 2012)

What's with the 1614s? Dude sooo toooo weak! Come on man, get a spine! (Get it? More spine? That's a joke!) 

You should be in the 1816 to 1820 range at least, maybe 1914 or a little more, especially if your X7s are as long as your CI shafts. 

You are making progress...but you need to go stiffer or shorter or both. I would suggest shorter first since you have the arrows on hand.

Also - try this just to verify there is no great imbalance in your limbs. You currently have your tiller at zero. Without moving the limb bolts, flip the limbs top/bottom and re-string your bow. Then re-measure your tiller. It might still be zero or slightly (less than 1/8") negative. If it's some really weird number - like way positive or negative, the limbs are not well balanced. And this is a good time to verify the top limb is on the top of the riser...someone I know has made that mistake but I won't mention who as not to embarrass myself. 

I gotta say, I was out shooting with a 5lb weight on my bow tonight - intended to be a strength-building exercise. But it turned into a great lesson in bow balance. Every time I try something new or change something in some really radical way, I learn something. Damn I love this sport!


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## GilG (Aug 20, 2006)

I am thinking your arrows are falling off the rest at release,I cannot confirm because of the not so slow slow motion video but based on the first pic with the rest and arrow,it seems that the wire arm ends up at the middle of the shaft and not the full diameter of the shaft. Add too that the fact that you have a full inch of arrow that you have to pull through the clicker based on the video, and the stiff hand.In the first video, your bowhand wanted to curl up and grab the bow at the time of release and that is not a good thing.The addition of a front stabilizer would also be nice .


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## Shinken (Nov 3, 2012)

Ohhh, so there is a difference between the top and bottom limbs!  I tried the 1614s because the nock releases very easily from the string while the nock for the 20/30s grips the string very tightly.
I checked the tiller after flipping the limbs and it was 7 1/8" top and 7 1/8" minus a hair bottom. With the limbs correctly placed it is 7 1/8" minus a hair for both top and bottom.
I haven't giving up yet. I will try to bend the rest wire out a bit. Currently the tip of the wire touches the very bottom of the shaft at the center.

I used video editing software to slow down the release some more:


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## lksseven (Mar 21, 2010)

Like GilG, my first thought upon freezing the first video (between the 11 and 12 second mark, you can freeze the video while the last third of the arrow shaft is passing the bow) was that the shaft must be falling off and driven below the arrow rest.

In the last video, you can also clearly see, with pauses, the last half of the arrow has dropped significantly before it clears the bow.

Fascinating.


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## gma (Aug 22, 2012)

Good to know your limbs are well matched.

And good video. But the arrow is not "falling" off the rest - it's BENDING in the vertical plane and popping off the rest.
By the time the middle of the arrow is to the plunger, the arrow should have already been pushed clear of the rest by the plunger anyway, so the rest it not supporting the arrow at all. 

I refer you to *The Official Archery Reference Video*: 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MugebeCK20g

Dude...try stiffer arrows. If you can't find some locally to try, I have some 28.75" 1914s and 1816s hanging around. Send me your address and I'll ship you a couple of each. Video them up and see what they do. Ship them back when you're done.


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## Seattlepop (Dec 8, 2003)

He is shooting barebow with no lower weight and the bow is flipping back. It looks to me that with his set up the lower limb is accelerating faster at the point the arrow is drawn down, hitting the shelf. As the upper limb catches up, it brings the nock closer to horizontal (not very scientific, but you get the idea). In the second video you can see the riser oscillate forward and back after the shot, seemingly from limbs being out of synch or the bow is weighted unevenly. It looks like lower pressure on the grip, ie palming? which compounds the problem for barebow - I seem to recall you want a higher balance point for barebow? 

First thing I would do is add weight to the bottom of your GMX.


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## Shinken (Nov 3, 2012)

Thanks GMA. That is a very generous offer. I found some 1816 locally so I won't have to bother you. They are 28" long. I spent the afternoon tuning them. I left the tiller at zero. The same brace height but moved the nock point up 1/2" to get to group bareshaft and fletched arrows. Also a little playing with the plunger screw to get the horizontal match. I was surprised to see that these arrows tuned to the bow without changing the poundage on the limbs and using an 85 grain point which should make them even stiffer. So I am not sure how to interpret that. My son did some more video with the 1816s from the side with fletched and bareshafts and from the back at two different angles. I would like to hear what you think but it appears that these arrows do the same dip down as the others and these are much stiffer. Maybe I need to use a stabilizer on the lower limb and/or change the tiller to the lower limb. Or may be I need to find coach. I read the comment about the palm of the hand. Should the pressure on the bow hand be only on the "V" between the index and the thumb?


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## Shinken (Nov 3, 2012)

BARESHAFT FROM THE SIDE:


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## Shinken (Nov 3, 2012)

FLECTHED FROM THE SIDE:


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## Shinken (Nov 3, 2012)

BACK VIEW 1


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## Shinken (Nov 3, 2012)

BACK VIEW 2


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## gma (Aug 22, 2012)

Those last two really show what I was describing. You can see right after release the nock being pushed down forcefully. 

Another angle that's useful for this particular analysis is straight out to the side (camera in front of you) - showing from string hand to bow.
Like in this clip: http://www.wernerbeiter.com/videos/Demo_2.wmv

The angle of the arrow right before release and as it passes the bow should be the same. Software like Kinovea (free!) is great for this.

Also, it looks like you only have a single nock point. Add a second. The nock might be slipping at release - if so, it will be difficult to get consistent results.

I'm sticking with adjusting your nock point and tiller to get this straightened up. I would try some pretty radical moves up/down and with tiller. Make a video of each and see what each changes does. Like I said, less tiller and lower nock point worked for me...but I don't think my arrow drop was as extreme as yours.


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## hooktonboy (Nov 21, 2007)

In some of the videos, especially the first, the arrow has slipped sideways off the rest. For a couple of the others it looks like the nock slipped down the string. I'd very much start there before spending on arrows....... second nock point, look at whether the rest needs a little more angle

Both of these will cause the marks you are getting.


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## Mulcade (Aug 31, 2007)

I suspect that perhaps the limbs aren't equally matched and the bottom limb is slightly heavier than the top, thus pulling the string down slightly after release. I haven't experienced this, so I have no idea of a good way to check and test this idea.


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## Seattlepop (Dec 8, 2003)

Shinken said:


> Thanks GMA. That is a very generous offer. I found some 1816 locally so I won't have to bother you. They are 28" long. I spent the afternoon tuning them. I left the tiller at zero. The same brace height but moved the nock point up 1/2" to get to group bareshaft and fletched arrows. Also a little playing with the plunger screw to get the horizontal match. I was surprised to see that these arrows tuned to the bow without changing the poundage on the limbs and using an 85 grain point which should make them even stiffer. So I am not sure how to interpret that. My son did some more video with the 1816s from the side with fletched and bareshafts and from the back at two different angles. I would like to hear what you think but it appears that these arrows do the same dip down as the others and these are much stiffer. *Maybe I need to use a stabilizer on the lower limb and/or change the tiller to the lower limb. Or may be I need to find coach.* I read the comment about the palm of the hand. Should the pressure on the bow hand be only on the "V" between the index and the thumb?


Finding a coach is never a bad idea.

You are getting mixed information here because you have been getting Oly-style advice while you are shooting barebow style. Totally different set-up, totally different rules in competition. Frankly, spine should not be part of this discussion at all. You have clearly stated that your arrows are flying fine, but people immediately jump on spine as the problem. No one noticed you were not using a stabilizer. Such is the nature of the 'net. Forget spine. Spine has nothing to do with your immediate problem. 

Your GMX is a great riser. However, out of the box it is not designed to be used barebow. You must change the way it is set up. Find threads that discuss barebow shooting style if that is what you want to pursue. AT has a traditional section, you might be better served there. The first advice you will no doubt get is to add a weight to the bottom of the bow to keep it from flipping up. Not a stabilizer, a weight. This is due to measurement restrictions when shooting under barebow rules. Tiller is also a huge subject in barebow. What adjustments you make there can depend on your string finger style, two-under or three-under, under the jaw or side-of-face. How you grip the bow will also influence your decisions. Again, consult barebow shooters for the best advice in those areas. 

Because your bow will be set up differently for each, you need to decide what style of archery do you want to pursue. You can switch back and forth with the GMX, but you need to understand the differences. Send a PM to Limbwalker or Viper1, both have roots in traditional style archery.


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## grantmac (May 31, 2007)

He's got a sight and a clicker, it's not barebow.

What he needs is a simple 30" longrod and to look at his rest set-up to determine if the arrow is falling off the rest.

Also the vanes on the superclub arrows are very tall and don't offer much clearance at the best of times.

-Grant


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## Seattlepop (Dec 8, 2003)

grantmac said:


> He's got a sight and a clicker, it's not barebow.
> 
> What he needs is a simple 30" longrod and to look at his rest set-up to determine if the arrow is falling off the rest.
> 
> ...


Of course. I should have also said, "BTW, if you do choose to go with the barebow style you can't use a clicker or sight". 

If he chooses Olympic style, then a long rod should cure the problem instantly. I don't see the arrow falling off the rest in the videos. It stays on after the clicker. It isn't until the arrow has been thrust downward during the stroke that the arrow can be seen to drop. imho

Shinken...do you have a long stabilizer?


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## Shinken (Nov 3, 2012)

I appreciate all the help. Ultimately I would like to shoot olympic style but I thought I will start with a simple setup and add things one at a time.
I shot some more video today after following some of the recommendations. I added a 2nd nock point and shot video from the side and from the back and then added a front stabilizer and V-bars. Unfortunaely I do not know how much weight to add to the bars so I put a single weight on each of the three and shot video from the side and back. Let me know what you think after watching the video. My impression is that both of these steps have helped significantly and so it appears everyone was right. I love the feel of the bow with the stabilizers (no vibration) but I hate how much it weighs. I will need to hit the gym to train my left arm.
How can I tell if my arrow rest is set up corretly?






View attachment 1655298


View attachment 1655299


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## grantmac (May 31, 2007)

Ditch the v-bars, just run the front bar. You can even run it without any weights if you want, but I'd try 2-4oz personally.

-Grant


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## gma (Aug 22, 2012)

Mulcade said:


> I suspect that perhaps the limbs aren't equally matched and the bottom limb is slightly heavier than the top, thus pulling the string down slightly after release. I haven't experienced this, so I have no idea of a good way to check and test this idea.


There is actually a easy way to check this:
1. Measure your tiller.
2. Flip the limbs top/bottom and re-string.
3. Re-measure your tiller.
If the tiller has changed significantly, the limbs aren't well matched.

Shinken has already verified this and he's good.


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## gma (Aug 22, 2012)

That looks much better. Still a little drop and a little contact, but much better.

As for how much weight, generally start light - even just the rods make a difference - and work up.

Me personally, I don't have much upper body strength and that makes me FAR more sensitive to the weight of the bow compared to the weight on the fingers. I recently added a V-bar and 6oz of weight total, and that has been a MUCH harder transition than when I went from 32# to 38# on the fingers. The first five or six ends are GREAT, but the last five or six are TERRIBLE. But those first five are SO great that I'm willing to add some strength building exercises to me routine. Ironically, I feel the extra weight on the bow in BOTH arms, and it has made it harder to get through the clicker.

Good luck


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## Norman2 (Aug 4, 2012)

Hi, According to what I can see in the latest video his arrow is dropping from the rest before it leaves the riser completely.
I have never seen this but I suspect it is either the knocking point or the way he has his rest wire set up. Just a thought.
Regards
Norman
PS: Maybe the tension on the plunger is too much.


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## HikerDave (Jan 1, 2011)

Shinken said:


> I appreciate all the help. Ultimately I would like to shoot olympic style but I thought I will start with a simple setup and add things one at a time.
> I shot some more video today after following some of the recommendations. I added a 2nd nock point and shot video from the side and from the back and then added a front stabilizer and V-bars. Unfortunaely I do not know how much weight to add to the bars so I put a single weight on each of the three and shot video from the side and back. Let me know what you think after watching the video. My impression is that both of these steps have helped significantly and so it appears everyone was right. I love the feel of the bow with the stabilizers (no vibration) but I hate how much it weighs. I will need to hit the gym to train my left arm.
> How can I tell if my arrow rest is set up corretly?
> 
> ...


I think that you are getting through the last bit of the clicker by curling your fingers and then uncurling your fingers to release. I think that because I see the arrow point move forward slowly before it really takes off, and I think that I see that your hand isn't completely flat -- hard to tell on the video.

Try relaxing your fingers and concentrate on moving your "LAN2" towards the archer behind you on the line as you relax the tension in your forearm.


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## Shinken (Nov 3, 2012)

It looks like there are too many variables to pinpoint which one is culprit and may be more than one. My poor form is likely contributing quite a bit in addition to the bow not being properly set up and the arrows not matching. Lots to learn but I am making some progress in the fashion of two steps forward one step back. Today I cut the SC 20/30 arrows to 28". Big mistake. My assumption was that if the 1816 at 28" and a spine of 756 were tuning with the 32# AMO limbs and the tiller bolts all the way out, The 20/30 with a 820 spine should now work given that the clearance issue has improved a lot. After cutting them the 20/30s are too stiff (hitting to the left of the flecthed ones) even with the tiller bolts tighten all the way down. Live and learn. It is a steep learning curve but learning nonetheless.


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