# novice needs help



## danny_ross17 (Jan 11, 2007)

I am a new bowhunter (2006 was my first season), but I'm incredibly hooked now and have been immersing myself in all forms of bowhunting literature until I can go back out next fall. this, of course, has helped me realize that I know nothing and need a lot of help. I apologize in advance if my questions are annoyingly nieve, but I was hoping to get a little background before taking my bow in for some tuning as I would like to understand the process and do my own work someday.

I experienced a lot of inconsistency (primarily high shots) that can obviously be attributed to my lack of experience, but wonder now after reading here and other places, if my bow is properly tuned (hoping this is adding to my errant shots). My Iron Eagle (Golden Eagle) was a gift and was set-up by the shop owner.

My _first_ question is a result of the fact that I've noticed a lime green line of vane residue on the base of my sight window just in front of my rest. I also noticed that my nock point appears to be consierably higher than level (maybe even 3/4") and that (at rest) it is almost an inch above the center distance between cams.

I'd love any suggestions/advice concerning my situation and faulty terminology. thanks, guys


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## bassman409 (Jul 19, 2006)

It sounds like your vanes are making contact with the riser and rest and probably because the nock point is too high. The reason might be that the string has streched if it is more than a year or two old.I would get the nock set at about 1/8 inch above square to the string so the arrow is about 90 degrees to the string. Then its time for fine tuning!


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## Bellows1 (Oct 19, 2003)

It is not uncommon for your nock point to not be centered between the cams , an inch or more. 

It should be a little higher then the arrow rest, maybe 1/4" give or take. If you could post up a few pictures we could help you find the problem. 

Your rest may be too low, too close to the shelf.


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## danny_ross17 (Jan 11, 2007)

thanks, guys! I appreciate the help and see the logic from both of your suggestions.

I put the tape and square to my bow tonight and found my eyes are a little off; my best efforts concluded that my nock is set such that an arrow is only an 1/8" above 90 degrees with the string. I also found that it is 3/4" high of center between the cams which I now know is perfectly within limits. I think, Bellows1, that you might be right about the rest being too low as the current path sets up for vane contact with the shelf. I'm thinking(uh-oh) if I raise the rest an 1/8" (bringing my arrow to 90 degrees), that should give me the clearance I need to prevent further vane contact on release (the lower vane on each of my arrows is warped). Am I on the right track?

thanks again and I'll pre-emptively ask about what that sort of change will mean at 20 yards. If this plan seems solid, am I on to paper tuning?

Glad for patient people,
dan

upon further inspection


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## danny_ross17 (Jan 11, 2007)

I will post pictures if I'm way off in the last thread. thx


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## bassman409 (Jul 19, 2006)

Try to get the rest high enough so that the arrow crosses the center of the berger (rest bolt) hole. You may have to move the nock point up also! I had to replace my 5 inch vanes with 4 inch and have never had contact since.


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## Bellows1 (Oct 19, 2003)

What type of rest are you using?

Bassman is correct, your arrow should be level (or close to it) with the hole in the riser that your rest mounts to. Depending on the rest, you may want to turn your arrows cock vane up.


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## danny_ross17 (Jan 11, 2007)

it is a shoot-through style rest with a perforated base plate (there doesn't seem to be vane contact with the rest's shelf). I'm not sure of the exact make and model.

thanks for all of the advice. I will work on raising the rest to get my vane clearance and height that matches the berger hole. my rest doesn't appear to be fully adjustable vertically (or adjustable horizontally at all) so I forsee the need to raise the nock point as well as the rest will have to come up "one hole".

I've had a lot of trouble finding any specs for my Iron Eagle bow. any suggestions?

(will take me a little while to make the adjustments as I'm going to school at night right now and work during the day.) thanks again


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## danny_ross17 (Jan 11, 2007)

As far as I can tell, my rest only allows for a minimum of 1/2" vertical adjustments (plus a little play in the bolt holes). this means I'll have to settle for my arrow to disect the berger hole 1/4" low (as it is in the picture/currently) or 1/4" high (as I planned to do to accomplish vane clearance we have discussed). I know I'm a pain, but I really appreciate the help. thanks


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## Kstigall (Feb 24, 2004)

Can you rotate the prongs downward such that they are not as vertical?
I don't recognize the rest but you should be able to do this. Use the higher bolt hole and then rotate the shaft that the prongs are attached.


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## -bowfreak- (Oct 18, 2006)

Change the mounting bolt of the overdraw into the red outlined hole. Then they angle of the rest prongs can be adjusted down by loosening the screw inside the blue circle. That should fix your rest adjustment. Check your nock again and then go from there.


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## danny_ross17 (Jan 11, 2007)

makes sense; I'll do it. thanks, guys


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## phumb (Oct 7, 2006)

thats a pretty tough set up for a newbie. the brace height equivalent is about 4".....


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## 6bloodychunks (Oct 26, 2005)

phumb said:


> thats a pretty tough set up for a newbie. the brace height equivalent is about 4".....




thats what i was thinkin

overdraw + new shooter = frustration and flyers

i would suggest getting rid of the overdraw .


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## danny_ross17 (Jan 11, 2007)

phumb said:


> thats a pretty tough set up for a newbie. the brace height equivalent is about 4".....


any chance you would elaborate...I'm listening and curious. I'm sure it's obvious, but I don't even know what a "brace height equivalent" is or what it means in the long run. thx


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## danny_ross17 (Jan 11, 2007)

6bloodychunks said:


> thats what i was thinkin
> 
> overdraw + new shooter = frustration and flyers
> 
> i would suggest getting rid of the overdraw .


have a suggestion as to what I should replace it with? thx


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## Bellows1 (Oct 19, 2003)

Danny, Brace height is the distance from the string to the grip. 

The longer the brace height, the more forgiving the bow is to shot, meaning it is more forgiving to flaws in your shooting form.

Typicaly BH is around 6-1/2' - 8" depending on the bow. You BH is very short.

I also see you string and cables have very little twist in them, I think you might want to take the bow to a good shop and have it tuned.


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## 6bloodychunks (Oct 26, 2005)

danny_ross17 said:


> have a suggestion as to what I should replace it with? thx



when using an overdraw you have the arrow contacting the rest "behind" your bow hand ,makes it tougher for someone new to be consistent. and it magnifies hand torque.

well theres nothing wrong with a prong rest, plus they are cheap.

nothing wrong with dropaways either. 

or even a whisker biscuit

pick one you like.


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## danny_ross17 (Jan 11, 2007)

thanks again. I have planned to take it in and will do so. I'm just trying to compile some knowledge (and 2nd opinions) so I can understand what is being done to my bow (and why) when I take it to a shop. thanks to everyone who added here.


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## BwhntrTS (Jan 15, 2007)

*Golden Eagle*

Danny, I just saw your thread and I, too am a newbie (2005 was my first bowhunting season). I now shoot league to try to address form, grip, etc. I have a 1996 Golden Eagle Falcon Flame (also a gift) and you're right, not alot of info out there on these. 2 weeks ago, my fletchings were hitting my rest, which is similar to yours but has only prongs. I think it's an Archer's Choice. Anyway, I had to turn my cock vane out and then just a touch up and it cleared the rest. Before, my arrows were going into the target at a slight angle and not perpendicular to the target, also known as porpoising. Now my arrows go into the target straight. This, however, caused my pins to be off as the arrow now has a different flight path. So I moved my pins and my groups have gotten tighter and my arrows faster.

Please provide more feedback about your bow, and what you are experiencing.


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## danny_ross17 (Jan 11, 2007)

most of my misses are high ( some right and some left of center), but I haven't been able to practice much lately so inconsistency reigns. I'm hoping to get into a shop this weekend for a tune (and first ever paper tune) using the knowledge I've gathered here. thanks for the help and I'll report back.


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## danny_ross17 (Jan 11, 2007)

I made it into the shop and, as suggested in this thread, he moved my rest up and then decreased the prong angle to dissect the berger hole. a new loop at a new nock point(up about 1/4") got me to perpendicular and he had me shooting bullets on a paper tune. my only reservation leaving the place was that my peep might need to come up now (makes sense, right?) because I feel like I'm really ducking to get to it. thanks for everyone's help. I'll be back!


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## Bellows1 (Oct 19, 2003)

Good deal Danny. :thumbs_up 

You may need to adjust your peep, it would be great if you could post up pictures of you at full draw. There are many very talented members who could help you with your form. 

I'll give you a few to look at, you should try to be consistent as possible with your grip and anchor points. This will improve your shooting accuracy.

Try to mimick these as close as possible, then you'll see your groups shrink. Have someone take pictures of you and post them here.


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## danny_ross17 (Jan 11, 2007)

great post! I was just trying to figure out how a person determines the correct draw length because my cam timing was off so I gained a little let-off and draw length today when it was corrected and I was concerned about it getting a little long for me. Great to see those visual references for a solid, fundamental set up as I've never really had anyone go over most of that with me. I'll get some pics up first chance and you guys can rip my form to shreds! thx again. I'm pumped!


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## phumb (Oct 7, 2006)

dan, to figure where you want your peep, just draw bow eyes closed, lock into your anchor point open your eyes, where is your peep? what is your bows dl set at? how tall are you? if you think its may be to long, it probably is. Ive found that MOST people benefit (shoot smaller groups) from decreasing
draw length...you'll give up a little speed, but the accuracy is usually worth it..


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## danny_ross17 (Jan 11, 2007)

I'm about 5' 10", but not sure exactly what my dl is set at (is there a way to measure this?). I'm hoping we can get a good look at my set up when I get the chance to post some pictures. good advice on the peep sight calculation. I'm _definitely_ in need of some accuracy! :sad:


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## danny_ross17 (Jan 11, 2007)

I'm still not sure what my dl is set at, but I got a couple of pictures taken at full draw this weekend and I think it might actually be pretty close (feels better now that both of my cams are dropping into the valley at the same time). I measured my wingspan (71.5-72") and divided by 2.5, then subtracted 1/2" (for my D-loop) to get ~28" for my theoretical dl. the first picture below was taken after I drew with my eyes closed, locked out, and dropped my nose to the string naturally. when I opened my eyes, I was significantly high every time I tried this. the second picture is when I locked out and then ducked in to get to the peep. I'm sure it's obvious, but I thought I'd post them both anyway. I really feel like I have to work to get to the peep where it's at now. My plan is to move the peep up until I can blind draw, open my eyes after finding the string with my nose, and have the peep window symmetrically frame my sight window (that sound good?). would love any other advice about my form as well. thanks


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## 6bloodychunks (Oct 26, 2005)

danny_ross17 said:


> My plan is to move the peep up until I can blind draw, open my eyes after finding the string with my nose, and have the peep window symmetrically frame my sight window (that sound good?).


this is exactly the way it is supposed to be done , you will be more comfortable, and consistent


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## fn257 (Dec 12, 2003)

Danny looks like you are close. Please nock an arrow when you draw your bow, if by accident you hit that release you might be picking up pieces of that bow. Not worth taking a chance on. Good luck!!



Mark


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## phumb (Oct 7, 2006)

i'm no pro at this and get another opinion. but it looks like your bow arm is maxed out pushing away from your body. i think you should have a slightly bent bow arm. do you hit your forearm with the string?


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## Headhunter 421 (Apr 26, 2006)

fn257 said:


> Danny looks like you are close. Please nock an arrow when you draw your bow, if by accident you hit that release you might be picking up pieces of that bow. Not worth taking a chance on. Good luck!!
> 
> 
> 
> Mark



Great Advice........
And take your finger off the trigger.Accidents can happen.I never put my finger on the trigger while pulling it back either.


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## danny_ross17 (Jan 11, 2007)

phumb said:


> i'm no pro at this and get another opinion. but it looks like your bow arm is maxed out pushing away from your body. i think you should have a slightly bent bow arm. do you hit your forearm with the string?



I never have, but that is an interesting point. I'll ask around. thanks


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## danny_ross17 (Jan 11, 2007)

Headhunter 421 said:


> Great Advice........
> And take your finger off the trigger.Accidents can happen.I never put my finger on the trigger while pulling it back either.



thanks for the advice. in this case, I left the arrow off because I was in the house and had my finger on the trigger because I was getting different peep sight results with my blind draw when my trigger finger was behind the release. I am very conscious about keeping my finger behind the release when I draw my bow, but really appreciate you taking the time and will do all of my photography at the range from now on. thanks again.


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## danny_ross17 (Jan 11, 2007)

looking to upgrade my sight and rest (as suggested in this thread). anyone have strong feelings for or against:

1. QAD Ultra-Rest Hunter

2. Trophy Ridge Matrix 5-Pin Sight 


thanks.


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## Bellows1 (Oct 19, 2003)

danny_ross17 said:


> looking to upgrade my sight and rest (as suggested in this thread). anyone have strong feelings for or against:
> 
> 1. QAD Ultra-Rest Hunter
> 
> ...


Danny, the Trophy ridge is a good sight. 5 pins may be more then you will need with the bow you are shooting. A good 3 pin sight would probably be better for your set up. 

I don't care for the QAD myself, but others have used it with good results. Trophy Ridge makes a very good Drop-away, I would go with that or a Whisker biscuit.


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## danny_ross17 (Jan 11, 2007)

would the five-pin be detrimental? I ask because, although I don't think I need more than three myself, I think I can get the 2006 5-pin for cheaper than the three pin. thanks


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## danny_ross17 (Jan 11, 2007)

been looking at whisker biscuit rests as well; how do I figure my arrow size as described in different whisker biscuit packages (i.e. large arrows, medium, small) thanks


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## danny_ross17 (Jan 11, 2007)

any worries about the width of my shelf?


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## Bellows1 (Oct 19, 2003)

The 5 pin should work fine, you may not have room enough to use them all, but they can be removed easily.

The WB size is determined by your arrow diameter, usually aluminum will be large, carbon will be medium and small would be for toothpicks. 

If you go with the WB, your shelf shouldn't be a problem. It shouldn't be a problem with any of them actually.


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## danny_ross17 (Jan 11, 2007)

thanks. I'll report back


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## colterdufault (Feb 5, 2007)

*Help*

Dan in my opinion you will be much more accurate if you were to move the peep sight up a little a bit and get your release hand closer to the bottom of your jaw. with your face crammed up like that you do not have a consistant anchor point. i recommend getting a kisser button also and try putting the tip of you nose on the string. The more anchor points you have, the more consistant you will be. So try to get yourself more anchor points


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## danny_ross17 (Jan 11, 2007)

phumb said:


> i'm no pro at this and get another opinion. but it looks like your bow arm is maxed out pushing away from your body. i think you should have a slightly bent bow arm. do you hit your forearm with the string?


I've heard some people talk about the importance of having good back-tension into the wall before you release. I assume the "wall" is the resistance you meet after drawing through the valley of let-off. this bit of advice made me aware of the fact that I _really_ need to reach to get to the wall (if I'm right about what the wall is) and that it might be because my dl is too long, as phumb meantioned above. I calculated my theoretical dl @ 28" by dividing my wingspan by 2.5 and then subtracting 1/2" for my d-loop. I then measured the dl of my bow and got 28 3/4" to the deepest part of the grip. if I add 1.75" (AMO) that puts me at 30.5". can I really be off by 2.5"? I have pictures posted towards the bottom of this thread. I've never hit my forearm with the string, but still wonder. thanks again


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## phumb (Oct 7, 2006)

as I said, i'm no pro at this, maybe some others can chime in. What i'm POSITIVE of is, most shooters(not the "top" guys) will shoot better by DECREASING thier dl's. I'm not familiar with your bow but would guess its somewhat adjustable(most older ones are) shorten if you can, see how it feels. also, most pro shops sell longer draw lenths than most people need, for many years, EVERYONE was a 30" draw length. thats what was stocked.
thats one of the problems with buying a used bow (or accepting one as a gift!) especially a beginner who isn't sure exactly what feel he's looking for. hope i didn't confuse you further, good luck.


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## danny_ross17 (Jan 11, 2007)

thanks and I think you're right. I am planning to shorten it up and see what happens; worth checking out at least. anyone else?


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