# 3d ethics?



## bhtr3d (Feb 13, 2004)

How would that be cheating..?? Your shooting the same tart twice...the target or stakes weren't moved...


----------



## swampy_44 (Nov 15, 2013)

So your saying they shot 2 arrows per stake, and you went through twice? Shooting the same stake and same target?


----------



## Boomer21 (Dec 11, 2011)

bhtr3d said:


> How would that be cheating..?? Your shooting the same tart twice...the target or stakes weren't moved...


So standing at the same target and shooting two arrows consecutively instead of shooting one as instructed and moving on is not cheating? I know the water is high in Hudson, but not that high. So my group walks twice the distance in heat and basically start from scratch on the second round due to over an hour since we last shot that target. Cheating in my book is when you don't follow the rules. Cheating is when you make up rules that suit you.


----------



## Boomer21 (Dec 11, 2011)

swampy_44 said:


> So your saying they shot 2 arrows per stake, and you went through twice? Shooting the same stake and same target?


Yes Swampy, they stood at the same position and shot two consecutive arrows at the same target. The rest of us shot one arrow per target and moved on to the next target. As instructed we did this in two circuits of the course. Basically we walked twice the distance and had over an hour between shooting the same target.


----------



## huteson2us2 (Jun 22, 2005)

Sorry Boomer21. You and I are spot shooters and 3D shooters will never understand why you are complaining. I do and that is why I shoot very few 3D shoots. Everytime I do, I see people doing things that would get them shot in a spot shoot. I shoot 3Ds only for fun and do not take them serious. If I could shoot 2 arrows at each target, My second arrow would always be a 12.


----------



## Boomer21 (Dec 11, 2011)

huteson2us2 said:


> Sorry Boomer21. You and I are spot shooters and 3D shooters will never understand why you are complaining. I do and that is why I shoot very few 3D shoots. Everytime I do, I see people doing things that would get them shot in a spot shoot. I shoot 3Ds only for fun and do not take them serious. If I could shoot 2 arrows at each target, My second arrow would always be a 12.


I agree. Too bad because I was looking forward to a new challenge. I just find it fascinating the first person to reply saw nothing wrong with it. Back to paper I go!


----------



## arrowblaster (Feb 9, 2004)

I wouldn't give up yet. Try some different 3d shoots, and let others know what that club did if you were instructed that way. There are a lot of good 3d shoots out there. ( in our area anyway.)


----------



## ahunter55 (Aug 17, 2009)

boomer21-like you I enjoy paper (Field, Hunter & 900 or 600 + the indoors). I always say Field separates the men from the boys. 3-D for me is a time I go with non competing family & G-kids (10-11 & 16 shooting archery) to have a fun time. I just did a 3-D today with my 10 yr. old G-son today & we turned in blank cards. We didn't keep score on paper, just decided if our shot would have KILLED the animal. It is a different kind of archer that just shoots 3-Ds.


----------



## kballer1 (Aug 31, 2010)

That's why the 3D shooters have erasers so they can change the rules as they go.


----------



## Boomer21 (Dec 11, 2011)

kballer1 said:


> That's why the 3D shooters have erasers so they can change the rules as they go.


Lol, I think I am to used to the black and white mindset of paper target archery and have entered the Wild West world of 3d. I need to loosen up when shooting 3d and enjoy punching rubber.


----------



## Boomer21 (Dec 11, 2011)

This weekend I was able to hit the range with my adult son (who just returned from a year in Korea) and agree these are the best days for an archer.


----------



## nochance (Nov 27, 2008)

huteson2us2 said:


> Sorry Boomer21. You and I are spot shooters and 3D shooters will never understand why you are complaining. I do and that is why I shoot very few 3D shoots. Everytime I do, I see people doing things that would get them shot in a spot shoot. I shoot 3Ds only for fun and do not take them serious. If I could shoot 2 arrows at each target, My second arrow would always be a 12.


agree with the OP that this was not fair but lets blame the organizers for letting it happen. I disagree with your arrogant self righteous statement that its 3D shooters that are the problem. You would not get away with that at any of the 3d shoots i attend.


----------



## nochance (Nov 27, 2008)

kballer1 said:


> That's why the 3D shooters have erasers so they can change the rules as they go.


Most paper shoots i have been to you score with a pencil. I'm pretty sure those pencils are erasable as well. Don't get all butt hurt cause you got you butt beat!


----------



## bhtr3d (Feb 13, 2004)

nochance said:


> Most paper shoots i have been to you score with a pencil. I'm pretty sure those pencils are erasable as well. Don't get all butt hurt cause you got you butt beat!


3d users use pens.....we know how to add LOL.....plus I don't see it was cheating.....it wasn't a shoot that matter was just for rec..most .all the more important 3d shoots in our start are 2 rounds.... and different ranges.....


----------



## wannaBelkhuntin (Jul 3, 2006)

It was for a cheesy blue ribbon !!! Was there a rule that stated you had to walk the course twice ? It was a small club shoot with very few people and you are whining about the way someone else shot because they didn't shoot the same as you, go to a real shoot next time and leave your better than the rest attitude at the paper target butts.


----------



## hrtlnd164 (Mar 22, 2008)

Maybe those other guys were saying; "hey that other group is only shooting 1 arrow at a time and we are shooting 2 which is tiring us out quicker.. If one of them wins we will have to put it on AT that they stole our ribbon." But fortunately for them they still won the ribbon, even getting tired out twice as fast!!


----------



## stork64 (Sep 11, 2010)

Sounds like this was a small time casual shoot, hardly anything you should be making sweeping judgements of 3d shooters over. Relax and have some fun, or go to a serious 3d shoot and get your butt kicked.


----------



## Boomer21 (Dec 11, 2011)

wannaBelkhuntin said:


> It was for a cheesy blue ribbon !!! Was there a rule that stated you had to walk the course twice ? It was a small club shoot with very few people and you are whining about the way someone else shot because they didn't shoot the same as you, go to a real shoot next time and leave your better than the rest attitude at the paper target butts.


Yes it was clearly stated prior to the the shoot that one arrow per target and two trips around the course. The prize and number of shooters does not change this rule. thanks for your "better than the rest" opinion and obvious support of a group of rule breakers.


----------



## iceman14 (Jan 25, 2011)

I carry a note pad and write what I guessed and where I hit on the front half. Adjust on the back. The only time I have a problem with double shooters is when it holds me up. Double shooting is too hard on arrows anyway.


----------



## Boomer21 (Dec 11, 2011)

Thank you for your insightful responses. My original question has been answered. I consider this thread closed.


----------



## woodsman78 (Jan 26, 2004)

I have shot both for years and for what it is worth what the club allowed to happen was wrong , but with that being said I have found the scoring in 3d to be just as close as in paper shoots and have been at national and mids in field were I have seen the rules twisted like a pretzel, it happens in both its up to the shooters to police themselves and nobody wants to be the squeaky wheel.


----------



## 04razortec (Apr 21, 2013)

If the shooting rules were clearly stated as you say, then they were absolutely wrong. Probably a bunch of "hot shots" that think they are too good for rules. Was the shoot all known distance? If not, then all the more reason it was wrong. Now that being said, you seem wrong minded to judge every 3-d shooter the same?


----------



## Boomer21 (Dec 11, 2011)

04razortec said:


> If the shooting rules were clearly stated as you say, then they were absolutely wrong. Probably a bunch of "hot shots" that think they are too good for rules. Was the shoot all known distance? If not, then all the more reason it was wrong. Now that being said, you seem wrong minded to judge every 3-d shooter the same?


This thread lives on. Please note at no point have I shared any opinion of 3d shooters. I simply asked if what this group did is normal/ acceptable/unique. I agree it is wrong to lump all 3d shooters into one group. In process I've been called "wrong headed", a whiner who will get my butt kicked on the course. LOL, I'll try again to close this thread.


----------



## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

Um, I attend a variety of 3d shoots and usually go to about 40 per year and some are more solid and some are more recreational. The key is to get your head screwed on correctly and have a goal, our goal is to stay solid at judging distance and aiming at the actual 12 ring that we may or may not be able to see. Secondly we have a great time on the course and we see it as a day on the range not a hour of flinging multiple arrows at the targets to get done quickly. 

Once you get those straight in your head then you will enjoy your day on the course and actually shoot really good and those people that fling both arrows at each target won't stand a chance.


----------



## 04razortec (Apr 21, 2013)

Sorry, I mistook your statement "back to paper I go" , as your final opinion of all 3-d archers. You are welcome at our club for a more ethical shoot. Southeastalabamaarchers.


----------



## canuck4570 (Mar 10, 2011)

if its a known distance shoot OK nothing wrong there

but if not the first arrow gave them a good idea of the distance depending of where it hits the target then the second they could place it dead on


----------



## Boomer21 (Dec 11, 2011)

Good advice Padgett


----------



## Boomer21 (Dec 11, 2011)

Thanks for invite 04razortec, bet I'd come away a better 3d archer.


----------



## bhtr3d (Feb 13, 2004)

Just.to ask...you dont.have.to post openly...where as this at in out state?.?


----------



## arrowblaster (Feb 9, 2004)

To answer your original question, it was wrong, but not the shooters, the club that held it for letting them do that. As I stated earlier, there are more shoots around, move on to another and enjoy it. And, yes, good answer Padgett!


----------



## Old Sarge (Sep 9, 2008)

Here is another way of looking at this. Ask yourself if you really enjoy the challenge of shooting 3-D archery. At some point you must have thought it would be fun or you probably wouldn't have tried it in the first place. If your answer is yes, you enjoy shooting in the 3-D tournaments then don't let the actions of others ruin your fun. There is no activity that you will do in life that doesn't offer an opportunity to be ruined by others. If a bad driver crashes into your car are you going to quit driving? How about a meal at a restaurant that was less than satisfactory? Gonna quit eating out. Don't think so.
As far as cheaters go they are everywhere also. Ever play golf at a private CC? Some of the worst cheating ever goes on there. I shot a lot of NFAA field in the 60's and trust me it was very easy to get paper whipped in those tournaments as well. The bottom line is if you like it keep shooting 3-D. Enter different tournaments, join a league, find some shooting buddies. If you honestly don't like 3D then go do something else, but quit stressing over it. Stress will make you miserable and shorten your life.


----------



## Blackfletch (Dec 2, 2006)

USAArchery has line judges who make the scoring call ,if requested, and that is the final scoring word.


----------



## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

I shot 3d for years basically blind to what I was missing out on and thank god that I finally woke up and started seeing what it could be, I have found a few guys that when we get together we have more fun than we really should be having and I mean all the freaking time. I look forward to each and every weekend that I get to spend the day shooting with them and laughing and hitting some 12 rings. When I first started it was all about winning and it has turned into one of the most important things in my life just enjoying life and having purpose. Yeah we are trying to win and we are all good enough that one guy isn't winning all the time anymore which is cool.

We make sure and tell any groups coming up on us to shoot through because we are pretty slow but why in the hell would we want to hurry up and have to go back to reality when we could enjoy where we are right now just a little longer. In fact the more I think about it I feel sorry for the people that shot two arrows each on the little course, they may never be able to enjoy 3d the way I do.


----------



## ahunter55 (Aug 17, 2009)

Padgett, I agree with you & I "enjoy" it all be 3-D or paper. Like I said, my G-son & I turned in blank cards last weekend but we did talk about if our shot would have killed the real animal. G-Son being 10 got a little education on shot placement & no pressure of hitting the 12 ring. We had a great time. He even said once, G-Pa, your in the shoulder bone & you might not get this one. I still love field the best & trying to spot out (rare for me ) with 112 arrows for a day.. As far as the OP question, The club is wrong allowing this even if a small club event..


----------



## shootstraight (Apr 28, 2005)

I will say for local shoots that will be a minor problem, pencil whipping happens all the time. Here's how it works, guy shows up just before the deadline for registration. No one there to shoot with him so he shoots by himself or his kid, turns in a stupid high score and wins. Happens all the time all over the place. I never get worked up about local stuff, if you want completion that is run well then go to some big ASA events, good people and a lot of fun.


----------



## ahunter55 (Aug 17, 2009)

big shoots, RULES to follow & no arrows touched until TWO scorekeepers have it down. No less than 3 in a group & in some cases, a group can be split up if all shooters are from same club. Personally, I cannot understand that "need" to lie. It's like our internet 3-4" groups at 60+ yards..


----------



## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

Last summer my group was on the range in a field in nevada, mo. We saw two teenage boys and a dad coming about 6 targets from us and the moment they pulled their arrows from the target the two boys took off walking and as the older boy was approaching the shooting stake he was knocking a arrow and never slowed down and as he got to the stake he started drawing the bow as he was taking his last step and he fired the arrow about a 1/10th of a second after coming to a stop. the other teen was knocking a arrow as his brother shot and shot his arrow maybe 1 second after the brother and dad was about 2 seconds later. They shot all 5 or 6 targets before we had shot one target and we let them shoot through while they made fun of our equipment and how slow we were going. 

Later we saw them checking scores and the look on their faces when they compared theirs to ours was a look of we had to be cheating to put up that kind of score, from where I was standing the look on my face would have said maybe you need to come join my group and see what 3d can be if you slow down and learn to play the game.

A lot of the local shoots have good people at them that just need to be introduced to how fun and rewarding a day on the course playing the game can be and it is our job to make sure that we offer to get them in our group when we can. I know that this year there were a few times when we were full with 5 guys and had to turn people away but we could have split into two groups of three and got the guy in but we didn't. A few times we did and the guy turned out to be a great guy or girl and had a good day with us.


----------



## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

I have to step back sometimes and remember that there was a time when I shot courses by myself because I didn't have any friends and didn't even know that shooting by myself was against the rules. I prided myself at learning how to get around those slow groups of target shooters, now I have a awesome group that I wouldn't trade for any other group. 

Well maybe samantha morgans group, Yeah the more I think about it I would totally dump my group for her group.


----------



## nochance (Nov 27, 2008)

Padgett said:


> checking scores and the look on their faces when they compared theirs to ours was a look of we had to be cheating to put up that kind of score


Unfortunately there is too much of this. People think if you shoot by yourself you must be cheating. If you post a good score in IBO you must have shoot with your friends. I'm sure it happens but if you're going to accuse show some proof!!!


----------



## Boomer21 (Dec 11, 2011)

I'm glad I posted this thread. I've learned there are many passionate and quality 3d archers out there. I've also learned I need to show more patience with the lesser quality archers I encounter. Thanks for the responses.


----------



## jcs-bowhunter (Jul 7, 2007)

Old Sarge said:


> Here is another way of looking at this. Ask yourself if you really enjoy the challenge of shooting 3-D archery. At some point you must have thought it would be fun or you probably wouldn't have tried it in the first place. If your answer is yes, you enjoy shooting in the 3-D tournaments then don't let the actions of others ruin your fun. There is no activity that you will do in life that doesn't offer an opportunity to be ruined by others. If a bad driver crashes into your car are you going to quit driving? How about a meal at a restaurant that was less than satisfactory? Gonna quit eating out. Don't think so.
> As far as cheaters go they are everywhere also. Ever play golf at a private CC? Some of the worst cheating ever goes on there. I shot a lot of NFAA field in the 60's and trust me it was very easy to get paper whipped in those tournaments as well. The bottom line is if you like it keep shooting 3-D. Enter different tournaments, join a league, find some shooting buddies. If you honestly don't like 3D then go do something else, but quit stressing over it. Stress will make you miserable and shorten your life.


+ 1


----------



## AR Archer (Apr 11, 2003)

I've got one that beats this. At a local shoot a couples of guys were shooting two different divisions. Instead of shooting two rounds , they were shooting both stakes in one round.


----------



## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

Boomer21, I agree.

The last time I shot a rhinehart 100 my group came up on a slow shooting stake with at least 10 groups waiting to shoot the stake, of course the organizers thought it was a good idea to put two targets at a few stakes and back up the course. So I am sitting there on my stool and there are three hunter class guys bashing any and all open class guys, there was a couple of open class guys about 5 groups in front of us and they were low level shooters that were struggling and when they finally got their turn the bowhunter guys just couldn't stop bashing and making fun of everything from the stabs to fat arrows and poor shots that the low level open guys had. 

Well, I kept my mouth shut and bit my lip which was hard but I 12'd that target along with my buddies and I believe all 5 of us put a arrow in the 12 ring. I was having a really good day and shot about the next 9 targets perfect and hit a 12 on all of them and the bow hunters go to see me do that over and over and by the time we ended the day they had started asking questions and we talked and I gave them a look into what 3d can be. 

Some of these people have never shot with a truly good shooter and have no Idea what can actually be done with a bow, it has nothing to do with time spent shooting. I personally shot for almost 30 years and had no idea that a hinge release even existed and now I teach hundreds of people how to shoot them. 

It was hard to keep my mouth shut that day and let my shooting do the talking but in the end it payed off and hopefully those guys are still going to 3d and have moved on from their bash fest.


----------



## Boomer21 (Dec 11, 2011)

That's karma Padgett. You kept focussed on why you were there and tuned out the idiots. A friend of mine taught me to tune out distractions on the shooting line. I need to do the same on the 3d course.


----------



## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

I have shot from 30 to 40 shoots locally and nationally since 2009 and I started out all by myself on the courses knowing absolutely nothing, even after I started to win 10 or more local shoots per summer I still really knew nothing about ethics or rules or anything really. In the last couple years is where I have really started to see what makes a great local shoot and at the end of year meetings I bring up the little things that I see on our courses that could be improved.

Rules are rules and weather your club is a asa club or not is one thing but I think that once you become a seasoned 3d shooter in your area opening up to other people that are new to the sport when you are in the practice area and out on the courses and making conversation is key. It makes things so much more of a shooting family event rather than a bunch of stuck up bowhunters vs the open shooters vs the traditional guys. 

I met one of my best friends racing bicycles 20 years ago and then we started hunting and now we shoot 3d together, I got into it before him and he is a newcomer but he is attending asa national shoots with us and local stuff. He lives 3 hours away from me but it is so freaking fun that he gets in his car and shows up more than once a month. That is how awesome 3d can become in your life and life is to short to be mowing the stinking grass on saturday when there are jokes to be told and 12 rings to be smoked.


----------



## Macmathews (Jul 24, 2007)

Boomer21 said:


> Yes it was clearly stated prior to the the shoot that one arrow per target and two trips around the course. The prize and number of shooters does not change this rule. thanks for your "better than the rest" opinion and obvious support of a group of rule breakers.


I think wannabe make's a good point.
Why would this kind of small shoot matter if you won or lost ?
When you get to some HIGHER standard then it will matter and all rules should be followed..
But you stated a blue ribbon and NO money. Do you really need recognition for winning .. If so do it where it matters.. the cream always rises to the top

Kyle


----------



## nochance (Nov 27, 2008)

Macmathews said:


> I think wannabe make's a good point.
> Why would this kind of small shoot matter if you won or lost ?
> When you get to some HIGHER standard then it will matter and all rules should be followed..
> But you stated a blue ribbon and NO money. Do you really need recognition for winning .. If so do it where it matters.. the cream always rises to the top
> ...


society has rules for a reason, I enjoy bigger shoots but it would still piss me off if someone cheated at a small event. For some people this is their big event even if its in a small town out in nowhere.


----------



## Mainefella (May 25, 2013)

I don't enjoy cheating at any level, whether it is for a blue ribbon or $500. I feel that if you are the kind of person that needs to cheat to win either one of those prizes then you aren't the kind of person that I want to shoot with. That being said, I shoot with a good groups of guys that have a good time and compare our scores but don't turn them in. Just in it for the fun.


----------



## Boomer21 (Dec 11, 2011)

Mainefella said:


> I don't enjoy cheating at any level, whether it is for a blue ribbon or $500. I feel that if you are the kind of person that needs to cheat to win either one of those prizes then you aren't the kind of person that I want to shoot with. That being said, I shoot with a good groups of guys that have a good time and compare our scores but don't turn them in. Just in it for the fun.


The point of my initial question was is it right (normal/ethical) for the other group to shoot two arrows at each stake instead of doing as instructed and shooting one and moving on.


----------



## Mainefella (May 25, 2013)

Sorry to get off topic. To me if they are turning in their scores then it is unethical to shoot in this fashion if it is unknown yardage. Everyone should shoot in the same way but there will usually be someone who doesn't want to.


----------



## Laars (Apr 26, 2015)

The rules should have stated either two arrows at each target or one and re-walk the course. Either way you can say there is an advantage. Once I shoot a target, my next arrow will be more accurate if I re shoot an arrow.

Or if I shoot just one arrow and move on, I am pacing off the target as I walk to it in my head, so I know if my yardage picked was correct. Either way your second shot has an advantage.


----------



## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

Hey, I had forgotten about this thread but just a couple weeks ago I actually attended and won a local tournament where it was a 24 target course you had to go around twice and shoot the same targets from a slightly different stake. It would have totally been a huge advantage to me to shoot both shots and go around only one time, I remembered this thread as we were shooting and actually felt like it wouldn't have made much difference but as we started the second round I couldn't remember hardly any of the distances of the first stake. It would have been really easy to use the first shot to help decide on the second sight setting.

The other thing that would have helped is that my buddy and I had no marker on the dark targets and having one or two arrows in the targets would have made aiming much easier on the second stake.


----------



## hoytlifer (Mar 28, 2009)

Padgett said:


> Um, I attend a variety of 3d shoots and usually go to about 40 per year and some are more solid and some are more recreational. The key is to get your head screwed on correctly and have a goal, our goal is to stay solid at judging distance and aiming at the actual 12 ring that we may or may not be able to see. Secondly we have a great time on the course and we see it as a day on the range not a hour of flinging multiple arrows at the targets to get done quickly.
> 
> Once you get those straight in your head then you will enjoy your day on the course and actually shoot really good and those people that fling both arrows at each target won't stand a chance.


We'll said! I agree!


----------



## Laars (Apr 26, 2015)

Padgett said:


> Um, I attend a variety of 3d shoots and usually go to about 40 per year and some are more solid and some are more recreational. The key is to get your head screwed on correctly and have a goal, our goal is to stay solid at judging distance and aiming at the actual 12 ring that we may or may not be able to see. Secondly we have a great time on the course and we see it as a day on the range not a hour of flinging multiple arrows at the targets to get done quickly.
> 
> Once you get those straight in your head then you will enjoy your day on the course and actually shoot really good and those people that fling both arrows at each target won't stand a chance.


Very well said.

Two weeks ago I dragged my dad out to a local 3D shoot to get him out in the woods again. In February of this year he had a heart attack, and was walking around like that for 2 weeks, just ignoring the pain. So after having quadruple bypass surgery, I thought this was a great way to get him back in the woods. It was all about having fun again, and it was.


----------

