# News from USA Archery



## HikerDave (Jan 1, 2011)

Mulcade said:


> USA Archery posted up an announcement yesterday about changes in the membership structure in response to a SafeSport initiative by the USOC. You can read the announcement here:
> 
> http://www.teamusa.org/USA-Archery/...-Denise-Parker-on-Keeping-Our-Sport-Safe.aspx
> 
> ...


No doubt that the "partners" mentioned near the end of the article are USA Archery's insurers. As I read the article, I wondered whether membership in USA archery is required even for a lesson sponsored by a club. The policy might have some unintended consequences -- this might mean the end of one-day events for church groups, girl scout troups, and beginner archers as sponsored by USA archery. Another unintended consequence might be that we become less welcoming to people who walk on to the range -- no more impromptu archery lessons for the curious that lead to the recruitment of enthusiastic club members. The local 900 rounds could get a lot more boring, too. Fewer of those really good shooters with the hunting bows will show up.

I understand the reasoning behind this. Abuse of children is a huge societal problem. The safe sport training shouldn't just be for the coaches -- it's probably better that parents and kids have the training so they know what to look out for.


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## TomB (Jan 28, 2003)

I have read it three times and still not sure I know what to do. Slow learner I guess.


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## SteveID (May 6, 2008)

I am on the fence on this one. I may be wrong (it happened once), but I believe that the French Federation requires membership to even join a club; and I don't think they have very many, if any tournaments that aren't ran under the governing body. They also have something like 90,000 members. Their organization seems to be pretty successful, and maybe it is the model to follow. Maybe not.

Requiring membership is definitely going to provide a barrier, but it could also provide a host of new members. We have something like 7,000 members? Last I heard, if we combined that with IBO, ASA and NFAA, our number would be around 20,000. 

The sport is growing, and membership needs to be growing with it.


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## Mulcade (Aug 31, 2007)

Steve, I agree with you that the membership should be growing and that we as coaches should be encouraging members of the various clubs to join USAA, but it shouldn't be a requirement in order to get your feet wet, so to speak.


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## SteveID (May 6, 2008)

Mulcade said:


> Steve, I agree with you that the membership should be growing and that we as coaches should be encouraging members of the various clubs to join USAA, but it shouldn't be a requirement in order to get your feet wet, so to speak.


Agreed.


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## lksseven (Mar 21, 2010)

"As part of the USOC Safe Sport initiative, background screens will be mandated for any person who has frequent contact with athletes. In addition, the USOC is also mandating that these same individuals go through a required education and training course concerning the key elements of the Safe Sport program. Currently background screens are mandated within USA Archery for instructors and coaches who are Level 2 or higher, but no education and training is required.

Beginning in 2014, all Level 2 or higher instructors and coaches will be required to go through the Safe Sport education and training program for their certification to be valid. "

More time, more money, more paperwork, more levels of bureaucracy ... is the USOC a subsidiary of the IRS?


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## midwayarcherywi (Sep 24, 2006)

"Beginning in 2014, all Level 2 or higher instructors and coaches will be required to go through the Safe Sport education and training program for their certification to be valid. There will be a transition plan for all instructors and coaches, and more information will be coming out on these elements of the Safe Sport initiative."

It appears as if we will all be in for additional training in order to maintain our status. I'm not sure what value a level 1 holds for anyone. And finally, I see more local tournaments being held under the auspices of the NFAA, or no affiliation at all.


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## baller (Oct 4, 2006)

CYA.....plain and simple. THE USOC and USAA are doing this to protect the organizations from potential lawsuit. That way they can say "we told them what they could and could not do..." if an associated instructor or coach crosses the line. They are establishing point of plausible deniability so that they can distance themselvs as organizations from associated individuals should the need for dis-association arrise. The sport is getting more attention now, it make sense that this would follow.

Not sure if I like the idea of required membership though, especially for prospective shooters interested in lessons from certified coaches. The United States Bowling Congress or USGA doesn't require this...why should archery accept to increase membership.


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## Arsi (May 14, 2011)

TomB said:


> I have read it three times and still not sure I know what to do. Slow learner I guess.


Basically it means that USA Archery will enforce a mandatory membership for attending all USA Archery events, even at the club level. To counter the high cost of the full membership, they made two more levels of membership costing $15.00. 

Recreational for someone just trying out archery. This is for club level events.

Temporary is for someone who wants to shoot at a tournament. This is good for only one tournament.

I think thats the gist of it.

Anyways, here in California, we have a LOT of STAR FITAs. Its not an issue for me since I am a member, but for lots of kids here, they may not have full membership. This may increase entry costs. Or it might not. Only time will tell. But I definitely will email the State Archers of California board and ask them how they will be handling this in 2014.


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## kshet26 (Dec 20, 2010)

"The Recreational Membership is designed for an archer who wants to participate in USA Archery club activities, but may be new to the program and not yet ready to participate in the pin program or compete at an event. "

So if a club is a member of USA Archery, any one shooting at or as part of said club needs to have at least the recreational membership? Does this include every 1st-time shooter that shoots for an hour to try it out?

And isn't archery one of the safest sports in existence?


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## midwayarcherywi (Sep 24, 2006)

It will be a bitter pill for all those level 1 coaches just christened. We have several at our club. They took the course to help out. Now they will have to pay up again to be level 2 coaches.

"Because the USOC is mandating that any person in frequent contact with archers/athletes must have these screenings and education, starting in 2014 ALL USA Archery clubs will be required to have at least one Level 2 or higher instructor within the club and we will require that any additional volunteer, instructor or coach who will have frequent access to the archers also be certified as a Level 2 or higher instructor."


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## midwayarcherywi (Sep 24, 2006)

I would like to have more clarity concerning those kids who want to check out our JOAD program. We currently allow them a short grace period before asking them to join USAA. I hope we can still allow kids to have a first look before making them join USAA.


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## Jim C (Oct 15, 2002)

TomB said:


> I have read it three times and still not sure I know what to do. Slow learner I guess.


I am a chairman of another NGBs ethics and grievance committee and it seems the USOC is pushing for all of this sort of stuff in order to have a contractual basis for dealing with bad apples. The Penn State Debacle is probably driving some of this chicken little reaction as well

I read this as killing off the reciprocity agreement with the NFAA

and the more burdens the USA puts on coaches who don't get paid for coaching, the less likely people are going to be willing to commit time to helping JOAD clubs.

I suspect this is what happens when the USOC starts having too much control over NGBs


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## midwayarcherywi (Sep 24, 2006)

USAA recently stated that more coaches are needed to support increased interest in the sport. Houston we've created a problem.


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## Arsi (May 14, 2011)

Jim C said:


> I read this as killing off the reciprocity agreement with the NFAA


Will we have to get an NFAA membership for Vegas now?


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## Beastmaster (Jan 20, 2009)

The Penn State reaction has hit all sports.

What I'm hoping never hits archery is something like this. A resulting lawsuit would bankrupt those involved.
http://espn.go.com/espn/otl/story/_...as-ruined-child-porn-allegation-espn-magazine


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## Beastmaster (Jan 20, 2009)

Arsi said:


> Will we have to get an NFAA membership for Vegas now?


I asked this same question myself to Denise earlier today.


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## TomB (Jan 28, 2003)

Arsi said:


> Basically it means that USA Archery will enforce a mandatory membership for attending all USA Archery events, even at the club level. To counter the high cost of the full membership, they made two more levels of membership costing $15.00.
> 
> Recreational for someone just trying out archery. This is for club level events.
> 
> ...


I hear what you are saying, but as a level 4 coach I do camps, I do archery outreach experiences where folks just shoot a few arrows for the experience, I do college classes, I do JOAD, I do private lessons, I do group lessons, I certify instructors. I am going to spend more time trying to figure out compliance than I am teaching archery.


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## Mulcade (Aug 31, 2007)

If this whole initiative is in response to what happened at Penn State, then all they're doing is tying the hands of the people who are on the straight and narrow instead of addressing the actual problems. Which group is more important to protect? The NGBs or the kids? I guess the answer is the NGBs as long as we can make it look like we're really trying to protect the kids.


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## Jim C (Oct 15, 2002)

I just saw this email

my wife renewed our three year family membership

I guess the attorneys at the USA don't understand that if you join an organization that alone is an acceptance of the terms of the organization

FRIENDLY REMINDER AND REQUEST – It has come to our attention that some USA Archery (USAA) members have not agreed to the USAA Membership or Code of Conduct waivers. This means that you, or one of your family members (if you have a family membership), is not currently listed as “Current” in our Membership Services System but instead have a “Pending” membership. 

To remove the “Pending” status, please access your membership account online and agree to the waivers. Once you have done this, the “Pending” status will change to “Current.” Please access your account here: https://webpoint.usarchery.org/wp15/IntraLock/Login.asp 

This is important not only for future ease of renewing your membership and for tournament verification purposes, but also so that you are counted as a member of USA Archery. If you have questions regarding this request, please contact the USAA Membership Coordinator by email at [email protected] or by phone at 719-866-4621. 

Thank you very much for your help.


I am going to have to seriously consider whether I continue to give this organization money as well as hundreds of hours of time each year


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## jwalgast (Aug 7, 2005)

With regards to "getting your feet wet" other sports like USA Cycling has been issuing one day licenses for beginning racers to enter a bike race. It's an insurance thing. Sadly, when a sport gets popular and more people come in, bad things can happen. In the 21st century, you have to cover your butt.


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## Jim C (Oct 15, 2002)

jwalgast said:


> With regards to "getting your feet wet" other sports like USA Cycling has been issuing one day licenses for beginning racers to enter a bike race. It's an insurance thing. Sadly, when a sport gets popular and more people come in, bad things can happen. In the 21st century, you have to cover your butt.


good point. Its like the zero tolerance crap at schools where some kid gets suspended for having a pop-tart that looks like a gun. The ability of those in charge to distinquish between a kid with a pop tart vs sociopaths like Klebold and Harris packing explosives and weapons they obtained illegally with malice aforethought appears to be beyond the capacity of too many so everyone has to put up with this stuff


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## RecurveDad (Mar 9, 2012)

Wait...



> Beginning in 2014, all Level 2 or higher instructors and coaches will be required to go through the Safe Sport education and training program for their certification to be valid. There will be a transition plan for all instructors and coaches, and more information will be coming out on these elements of the Safe Sport initiative.
> 
> Because the USOC is mandating that any person in frequent contact with archers/athletes must have these screenings and education, starting in 2014 ALL USA Archery clubs will be required to have at least one Level 2 or higher instructor within the club and we will require that any additional volunteer, instructor or coach who will have frequent access to the archers also be certified as a Level 2 or higher instructor.


So starting January 1st, 2014, since I am basically at every one of our clubs events/activities, thereby meeting the definition of "frequent access" I presume, I will be not able to say the following things like I have on a number of occasions just this season alone?

"Sure I'll help you get your (or your son or daughter) gear tuned..."
"Hey you could really improve by doing X"
"Let's shoot some slow motion video and I can show you what you are doing" just did this last night for three of our JOADs
"This weekend is your first tournament?!?!?! COOL! Let's go over some stuff you should expect!!!"
"Oh I didn't know anything about archery either when we started..."
And so on and so forth...

And instead I will be able to say "Oh, I'm sorry, but because I do not want to jeopardize our club or program I can't help you. I am only allowed to work with my children."

WOW!


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## midwayarcherywi (Sep 24, 2006)

Yes. Level 1 will probably not be appropriate for anyone working with a JOAD program....sad to say. Again, I don't see where level 1 fits in. Maybe scout leaders?


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## Jim C (Oct 15, 2002)

RecurveDad said:


> Wait...
> 
> 
> 
> ...



"ITS FOR THE CHILDREN" is the last refuge of the nanny staters :sad:


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## ccwilder3 (Sep 13, 2003)

It seems to me that this about money, pure and simple. Killing the agreement with the NFAA certainly has nothing to do with liability.

I have always got the feeling that the NAA or whatever they wish to call their self just wanted my money, not my participation. That is why I am a member of the NFAA.


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## Jim C (Oct 15, 2002)

midwayarcherywi said:


> Yes. Level 1 will probably not be appropriate for anyone working with a JOAD program....sad to say. Again, I don't see where level 1 fits in. Maybe scout leaders?


yeah, remember if you aren't certified you don't exist!!


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## RecurveDad (Mar 9, 2012)

Jim C said:


> good point. Its like the zero tolerance crap at schools where some kid gets suspended for having a pop-tart that looks like a gun. The ability of those in charge to distinquish between a kid with a pop tart vs sociopaths like Klebold and Harris packing explosives and weapons they obtained illegally with malice aforethought appears to be beyond the capacity of too many so everyone has to put up with this stuff


ZERO TOLERANCE = ZERO INTELLIGENCE

That is why bureaucrats love it so much Jim, and they wield it like an impenetrable shield - LOL!


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## titanium man (Mar 5, 2005)

$$$$$$$ What else?


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## Gummi Bear (Jun 23, 2010)

Aw for cripes sake. It was hard enough to get the time and find a class to get my level 2, now I have more hoops to jump through?

I do understand the one day license thing though, I've seen that with other organizations. Basically it makes them a member so they can be covered by the liability insurance should something happen during the event. I think it should be a nominal fee though, just a couple of bucks. Don't make it so that it might be a determining factor for someone new wanting to try it out. 


All you need in this life is ignorance and confidence; then success is sure - Mark Twain


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## Humdinger (Apr 4, 2012)

Arsi said:


> Basically it means that USA Archery will enforce a mandatory membership for attending all USA Archery events, even at the club level. To counter the high cost of the full membership, they made two more levels of membership costing $15.00.
> 
> Recreational for someone just trying out archery. This is for club level events.
> 
> ...


In the past Cal Archery accepted Nfaa memberships aswell. Hope they continue...


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## Humdinger (Apr 4, 2012)

I see where this is going... Next you will not be able to compete unless you have a Level 2 coach or higher signed to you(Kinda like Gymnastics)... I sure hope these guys/gals know what they are doing...


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## Mulcade (Aug 31, 2007)

Humdinger said:


> I see where this is going... Next you will not be able to compete unless you have a Level 2 coach or higher signed to you(Kinda like Gymnastics)... I sure hope these guys/gals know what they are doing...


That is quite a bit past the point where I tear up my certification and membership card and go shoot 3D.


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## titanium man (Mar 5, 2005)

Have these people got nothing better to do?? Why don't they use their time, and our membership money on trying to support archery, by supporting lower cost tournaments nearly everyone can afford to go to, instead of jumping on the politically correct bandwagon and money train, further pushing people out of archery.


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## twofinger (Feb 12, 2012)

so I just started shooting again and I joined a club and we shoot a fun 900 round on sunday afternoons and now I am suppose to join the naa that the closes tourney is over 300 miles away? what benefit do I get? my state assoc. wants you to join the nfaa too again for what? shooting maybe the state indoor? I joined a club to shoot with good people and to exorsize I am not going to any of the big tourneys again please tell me what my benefit is?


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## titanium man (Mar 5, 2005)

titanium man said:


> Have these people got nothing better to do?? Why don't they use their time, and our membership money on trying to support archery, by supporting lower cost tournaments nearly everyone can afford to go to, instead of jumping on the politically correct bandwagon and money train, further pushing people out of archery.


Let me write that the way it should be.....and it makes sense. Careful when you edit.  

Have these people got nothing better to do?? Why don't they use their time, and our membership money on trying to support archery by lowering the cost of tournaments, so nearly everyone can afford to go, instead of jumping on the politically correct bandwagon and money train, further pushing people out of archery.


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## Jim C (Oct 15, 2002)

titanium man said:


> Let me write that the way it should be.....and it makes sense. Careful when you edit.
> 
> Have these people got nothing better to do?? Why don't they use their time, and our membership money on trying to support archery by lowering the cost of tournaments, so nearly everyone can afford to go, instead of jumping on the politically correct bandwagon and money train, further pushing people out of archery.



Here is the problem


1) the quest for USOC dollars has made us-the members-nothing more than cash cows and pawns by those who are beholden to the USOC

2) those running things now think that we exist to serve them and fund them when in reality the organization should exist to serve its membership

3) MOST MEMBERS are not going to be on a world team, an olympic team an RA or even a JDT member. Yet the interests of the majority is made subordinate to the "elite" who of course are useful to the leadership in that they might win those almighty olympic medals which of course leads to the most important thing of all-MORE USOC Dollars

4) I have run the oldest JOAD club in the country for approximately 15 years now. I am fortunate in that I have the financial resources to donate lots of money and time to our club. However, the USA is increasing the costs on people like me. I can afford moronic background checks that I get several times a year or so when I buy another gun for my collection or my son. I have comprehensive background checks for my job. But many would be volunteers are not going to bother when this organization imposes more and more entry and yearly costs on them for doing something they DO NOT GET PAID FOR

5) as a trial attorney, I understand the all important CYA nonsense that permeates organizations of all sizes. The penn state debacle is apparently spurring some of this. But guess what? if someone plans to premeditate child abuse or is a pedophile, these checks aren't going to stop them. ITs just so the organization can claim "due diligence" to protect from a suit. But there won't be anything left to sue the way things are going. 

6) as I noted, I can afford this crap. I can afford to send my kid to a shoot that is among the most expensive and inconvenient places for most of the membership. But this sport shouldn't end up being like Equestrian, Ice skating or other sports where it often comes down to how big a check your parents can write if you want to be competitive. And as someone who can afford the increased costs, I am upset because I don't think this sport should be just for the kids whose fathers are Ivy league lawyers or doctors or Fortune 500 executives.


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## titanium man (Mar 5, 2005)

Jim C said:


> Here is the problem
> 
> 
> 1) the quest for USOC dollars has made us-the members-nothing more than cash cows and pawns by those who are beholden to the USOC
> ...


Awesome Jim!! Well put. :clap:


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## baller (Oct 4, 2006)

I wonder if this will have the desired effect that they are looking for. It is possible that some clubs, likely many clubs, will just decide to keep shooting as a club and have their events be unsanctioned or unofficial events and seperate themselves from the USAA/USOC. I know we'll vote on it this year whether we re-new out club registration even though we don't hold any registered events through the NAA. Most of our shooters are NAA and NFAA members anyways but regardless, we are small enough that if it comes down to being sanctioned by a governing body or gaining a new member, we'll take the member.....in my opinion at least.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Starting to hear some of the opinions about USArchery sound a lot like what I've been saying for years now. Glad to know I'm not the lone voice in the wilderness anymore.

Any guess why I asked Denise whether the name NAA was available last spring? 

It's more clear than ever that our sport needs two seperate organizations - one for elite international competition, and one for grassroots, amateur archers. 

Or, just let USArchery handle the first, and the NFAA handle the second. Simple enough. The sport needs both, but it's more obvious than ever that a single organization cannot respond to both customers well.



> More time, more money, more paperwork, more levels of bureaucracy ... is the USOC a subsidiary of the IRS?


Apparently, Steven Miller found a new job after all.

FWIW, I'm choosing to ignore all of this until the annual meeting in Ohio, where I hope ALL of you are there to speak up.

John


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## Jim C (Oct 15, 2002)

limbwalker said:


> Starting to hear some of the opinions about USArchery sound a lot like what I've been saying for years now. Glad to know I'm not the lone voice in the wilderness anymore.
> 
> Any guess why I asked Denise whether the name NAA was available last spring?
> 
> ...


how did the shoot go today? the double edged sword of the Olympics is quite evident now


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## lizard (Jul 4, 2003)

I will also add to this, we not only have our family membership, but we also have our club (CJO) and our camp memberships as well.
So for us, we put $210 for family 3-year and @ $120-150 towards our club "memberships." Plus we coach voluntarily, and I give private check us out lessons free. 

Now we are asked to FORK OVER MORE dough to get "Safe Coaching" certified (thanks to Jerk Sandusky, and Penn State's complicity in that whole scandal. (We have a Nitney Lion in our club, and he is the best guy on the face of the Earth!) 

We are also LIFE MEMBERS (all three of us) of NFAA. Kept the USAA memberships going because of our clubs, and our good relationship with USAA. 

In the past we have allowed people to try archery out until (as Gabe said) they attain a certain level, or are ready to commit to being a tournament archer, then we ask they join USAA. 

I'm not sure the new two levels of membership will be that attractive to new archers. 

I feel awful asking to have a membership after attaining a certain score much less to just try it out or try out a tournament. I think this might drive people away rather that draw them to archery.

Hollywood has given us über interest and the "intelligencia" at USAA has seen fit to drive them away with this proposal. Which, by the way, THE MEMBERSHIP NEVER GOT TO VOTE ON! I'm just guessing a "MEMBER" got their start from a JOAD club, or from someone who was in a JOAD club, hence, I think the membership MIGHT like to VOTE on such a proposal.

I'd like to see the by-laws on how USAA is able to change rules! 

When are the current officer's terms up anyway? Not that I want to run or anything, I'm just saying we seem to NEED A CHANGING of the Guard, as the current guard seems to like to see what all of us say, then they "rethink" their proposals. 

Also, this Lording things over us "peons" with new membership levels, and "coaching safety" thing is silly. In order to be able to teach archery, sometimes it is necessary to lay hands on the individual, and if they are uncomfortable with that then I have them put their hands on my back so they can feel what I do, and then the light generally goes on and they see what they can do to replicate the action. I ALWAYS ASK THEM AND THEIR PARENT IF IT IS ALRIGHT...RESPONSE is ALWAYS YES!

I'd like to demand a membership vote on rules changes. There are a few smart people in this organization's membership who might be very effective in writing and fairly enacting new "LAWS" (rules), with the approval of the membership. There is at least on person who is serving on another ethics board with USTTA, and is a member of NSSA, NSCA, and other shooting sports organizations, who has fought for athletes in the past. He is the person, whose quote is below!

With due respect USA Archery, we need to get more practical here, instead of Lording it over us, let's talk about this at the Annual meeting during outdoor nationals, face to face, and DISCUSS it leaving time for opinions and reasonings before you go forth and say like a parent to a naughty child, "this is what you WILL do."

We have a government who is controlling and knowing our every move (Orwell-1984), now our sport is trying to do the same. Sad really sad.




Jim C said:


> I just saw this email
> 
> my wife renewed our three year family membership
> 
> ...


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## Jim C (Oct 15, 2002)

as I noted this crap is all coming from the imperial council known as the USOC. 

the USA leadership is just conduits. its idiotic IMHO


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## lizard (Jul 4, 2003)

How many serious injuries has anyone seen at an archery tournament? BTW, with club membership comes an insurance policy, which covers your tournaments and events.
With cycling there can be life altering accidents. With equestrian sports, there is the 1200# animal factor leaping over massive jumps or just having a moody day, or just not liking you up there, and wants you off, I have been injured (late summer 2012, severely sprained elbow). I'm just saying I have not seen LIFE ALTERING injuries during an archery tournament...though I do have to admit WATCH WHEN YOU ARE STRINGING AND UNSTRINGING BOWS...THEY BITE HARD, and make your face bleed like a stuck pig.
The CYA thing is covered through your CLUB MEMBERSHIP with USA Archery, and you can get the tournament site underwritten as well.



jwalgast said:


> With regards to "getting your feet wet" other sports like USA Cycling has been issuing one day licenses for beginning racers to enter a bike race. It's an insurance thing. Sadly, when a sport gets popular and more people come in, bad things can happen. In the 21st century, you have to cover your butt.


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## HikerDave (Jan 1, 2011)

lizard said:


> How many serious injuries has anyone seen at an archery tournament? BTW, with club membership comes an insurance policy, which covers your tournaments and events.
> With cycling there can be life altering accidents. With equestrian sports, there is the 1200# animal factor leaping over massive jumps or just having a moody day, or just not liking you up there, and wants you off, I have been injured (late summer 2012, severely sprained elbow). I'm just saying I have not seen LIFE ALTERING injuries during an archery tournament...though I do have to admit WATCH WHEN YOU ARE STRINGING AND UNSTRINGING BOWS...THEY BITE HARD, and make your face bleed like a stuck pig.
> The CYA thing is covered through your CLUB MEMBERSHIP with USA Archery, and you can get the tournament site underwritten as well.


I just got on line at SafeSport and started up the course -- they claim that this will take about 90 minutes, and the training appears to be free. So no big deal there for people who already have their level II certification.

The new policies don't take effect until January, so I think that there's plenty of time for USA archery to make adjustments, if necessary.


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## Jim C (Oct 15, 2002)

HikerDave said:


> I just got on line at SafeSport and started up the course -- they claim that this will take about 90 minutes, and the training appears to be free. So no big deal there for people who already have their level II certification.
> 
> The new policies don't take effect until January, so I think that there's plenty of time for USA archery to make adjustments, if necessary.


Lets examine this logically. if someone is going to molest children or is a pervert is this going to mean anything. of course not-but it might cause some people who just want to help to say screw it-there are many other things you can do with 90 minutes that is not so mind numblingly silly. Its like the current crop of proposed gun laws that many pandering politicians want to pass. THEY KNOW the crap they push won't make us safer but they can CLAIM THEY DID SOMETHING. ITs all about covering their own asses. 

The membership ought to vote on this stuff and quit being force fed crap by the USOC


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## Serious Fun (May 12, 2003)

I count at least 8 items to get started on.
1.	Register every tourney you do beyond club training type events.
2.	Require that all that take part in one of your tourneys be a temporary or full USAA type member.
3.	Have all that take part in club become recreational or full USAA type members.
4.	Review the new club agreement and if acceptable, accept.
5.	Create and implement a safe sport plan for clubs, coaches, parents, athletes. 
6.	Have all that ongoing volunteers and staff become Level 2 or higher certified includes background checking.
7.	Have club ongoing volunteers and staff take the safe sport Ed program. 
8.	Have ongoing volunteers and staff get on the USAA membership website to review and if acceptable, and accept the things they are missing such as code of conduct acceptance.


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## HikerDave (Jan 1, 2011)

Jim C said:


> Lets examine this logically. if someone is going to molest children or is a pervert is this going to mean anything. of course not-but it might cause some people who just want to help to say screw it-there are many other things you can do with 90 minutes that is not so mind numblingly silly. Its like the current crop of proposed gun laws that many pandering politicians want to pass. THEY KNOW the crap they push won't make us safer but they can CLAIM THEY DID SOMETHING. ITs all about covering their own asses.
> 
> The membership ought to vote on this stuff and quit being force fed crap by the USOC


I remember going through jury selection for a grand jury where the county attorney was trying to find out who might have emotional problems with some of the sexual abuse cases that might come up. As a naïve young man, I was fairly shocked by the number of tearful little old ladies who had been abused in their lives. I also found out after the fact that my younger sisters had been harassed by a creepy janitor at their school. These incidents make me think that the SafeSport program is a good idea. This is of course no substitute for parental involvement -- the best club policy is to encourage parents to be present but there are those that just drop their kids off regardless of the club rules.

The strict requirement for membership seems a bit problematic. I like to be part of a welcoming club that helps new people, and shoving a membership form under their face when they walk onto the range, instead of placing a bow in their hands, is not something I would do.


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## HikerDave (Jan 1, 2011)

Serious Fun said:


> I count at least 8 items to get started on.
> 1.	Register every tourney you do beyond club training type events.
> 2.	Require that all that take part in one of your tourneys be a temporary or full USAA type member.
> 3.	Have all that take part in club become recreational or full USAA type members.
> ...


If a club holds a sanctioned tournament with 30 fully-paid USA archery members, is it reasonable to expect that USA archery will kick in some money to pay for judging and provide logistics assistance in addition to insurance? What exactly does USA archery provide now for a sanctioned tournament that isn't provided for a non-sanctioned tournament?


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## Mulcade (Aug 31, 2007)

Bob, those last three are just silly. I want to get the parents in my club MORE active and requiring that they take all these classes and seminars just so they can run the concession stand at a tournament for the club isn't going to make them want to jump in with both feet.

The flip side to this is that the majority of the parents don't want to get certified. They just want to support their kids from the sidelines (or the concession stand). They have no interest in getting involved in the coaching aspect. I shouldn't have to force them to become coaches and instructors just so they can support their children. It's a preposterous idea. Having to turn away volunteers because they don't have the right credentials will kill any club.

As some have mentioned, I'd sooner drop the club affiliation with USAA than turn away even one volunteer. USAA isn't going to bring water, isn't going to pull the trailer to practice, isn't going to print out the score cards, or arrange for the meeting room. They aren't going to say THANK YOU to the coach at the end of the day. One single volunteer can do this and a whole lot more and not cost me or the club a single dime.

Bob, I appreciate you showing your support for USAA and I think there is merit in making sure our kids are safe. Unfortunately, I see very little in the proposal that can grow our sport. We are in the middle of a HUGE surge in popularity for our sport. Let's not kill off the enthusiasm by doing something to make it harder for people to participate.


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## Scott.Barrett (Oct 26, 2008)

Parts I like:

Background checks for anyone coaching....I know the background of every person that my kids are in contact with when I am not present. I would assume other parents would want to know as well. I know this isn't going to weed everyone out, but at least it is a start and I will give all of my identifying information to every kid I coach....

Parts I don't like:

They need a membership just to try it out!?!?!? Way to reduce your future membership pool! How about offering some membership scholarships like the YMCA for kids who can't afford it?

Membership needed to earn pins?!?!?!?! You got to be kidding me!!!!!


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## Beastmaster (Jan 20, 2009)

I'm still digesting all of this, and I'm waiting for a response back from emails that I sent Denise and others on before I really and totally rationalize this whole thing.

As part of a club leadership view, I'm actually personally glad that USA Archery membership is required to earn pins. I have three students who are still hovering on a certain pin level because their parents won't get off the dime and pay for a family membership. They paid for one (the oldest child), but their other kids are stuck because Mom and Dad won't show proof of the upgrade.

I don't agree with the membership requirement to try it out. This pretty much kills momentum that USA Archery has had with anything to do with archery in general.


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## Mulcade (Aug 31, 2007)

Beastmaster said:


> I'm still digesting all of this, and I'm waiting for a response back from emails that I sent Denise and others on before I really and totally rationalize this whole thing.
> 
> As part of a club leadership view, I'm actually personally glad that USA Archery membership is required to earn pins. I have three students who are still hovering on a certain pin level because their parents won't get off the dime and pay for a family membership. They paid for one (the oldest child), but their other kids are stuck because Mom and Dad won't show proof of the upgrade.
> 
> I don't agree with the membership requirement to try it out. This pretty much kills momentum that USA Archery has had with anything to do with archery in general.


Beast, you may already know this, but the parent's can call USAA and get the one membership changed over to a family plan very easily. Much easier than trying to do it via the website! Like I said, you may already know that. :darkbeer:


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## Beastmaster (Jan 20, 2009)

Mulcade said:


> Beast, you may already know this, but the parent's can call USAA and get the one membership changed over to a family plan very easily. Much easier than trying to do it via the website! Like I said, you may already know that. :darkbeer:


I do. I'm a bit torqued that the parents are holding things up. But, the rules are set. I just follow them.


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## Beastmaster (Jan 20, 2009)

Interspersed....



Serious Fun said:


> I count at least 8 items to get started on.
> 1.	Register every tourney you do beyond club training type events.
> 2.	Require that all that take part in one of your tourneys be a temporary or full USAA type member.


How do you propose that places like Papago's 900 rounds (which, by the way, have been hugely instrumental in the huge growth that feeds into the State JOAD championships) handle this? 

I'm just throwing this out there because the clubs need guidance in a greater detail than what's been given so far by USA Archery.



> 3.	Have all that take part in club become recreational or full USAA type members.


Are we as clubs now responsible to become membership wranglers? If so, what's the motivation for the clubs to increase their amount of paperwork? 



> 4.	Review the new club agreement and if acceptable, accept.
> 5.	Create and implement a safe sport plan for clubs, coaches, parents, athletes.
> 6.	Have all that ongoing volunteers and staff become Level 2 or higher certified includes background checking.
> 7.	Have club ongoing volunteers and staff take the safe sport Ed program.


Cost? In other NGB's that I still have some contact with (USA Baseball, for example), the SafeSport appears to be free...but nothing is truly free. Someone has to bear the cost of it somewhere. 



> 8.	Have ongoing volunteers and staff get on the USAA membership website to review and if acceptable, and accept the things they are missing such as code of conduct acceptance.


I find this part quite interesting. Within my own family, I have not been asked to review the waiver, yet my wife has. We're both Level 3's.


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## Jim C (Oct 15, 2002)

HikerDave said:


> I remember going through jury selection for a grand jury where the county attorney was trying to find out who might have emotional problems with some of the sexual abuse cases that might come up. As a naïve young man, I was fairly shocked by the number of tearful little old ladies who had been abused in their lives. I also found out after the fact that my younger sisters had been harassed by a creepy janitor at their school. These incidents make me think that the SafeSport program is a good idea. This is of course no substitute for parental involvement -- the best club policy is to encourage parents to be present but there are those that just drop their kids off regardless of the club rules.
> 
> The strict requirement for membership seems a bit problematic. I like to be part of a welcoming club that helps new people, and shoving a membership form under their face when they walk onto the range, instead of placing a bow in their hands, is not something I would do.


here is the problem

child abuse and pedophilia is NOT ACCIDENTAL behavior or is perpetrated DUE TO IGNORANCE

education prevents some actions that are perpetrated DUE TO IGNORANCE

IE hunter safety programs that say you cannot use more than 3 shots in your shotgun or you cannot shoot a deer more than a half hour before sunrise

hunter safety programs do nothing to deter poaching

in other words, people who are going to engage in sexual abuse of children are not going be deterred by this silly CYA nonsense. All this is going to do is lose us lots of volunteers and kill the creation of more clubs


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## titanium man (Mar 5, 2005)

Maybe this is a prequel to a USAA/NFAA merger?


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## Warbow (Apr 18, 2006)

*USA Archery Confirms Conserns of Members and Member Clubs Secondary to Olympic Money*

_*Increased Liabilities with No Increased Club Benefits*_

These changes will have a major negative impact on our USA Archery JOAD and Adult Achievement Club and will provide no tangible benefit to the archers in our program.

*We teach lots of new archers and forcing them to pay and additional $15 to USA Archery for a "recreational membership" just to take an introductory lesson will be a deal killer for many of them. Forcing our returning archers to pay an additional "temporary membership" or pay for full USA Archery membership to shoot for their first pins will likely reduce participation in our JOAD and AAP pin shoots.*

All in all these are changes that affect recreational programs drastically, forcing them into a model that is inappropriate. Increasingly USA Archery is all about club rosters and memberships, even as they pay little attention to the members as evidenced by this latest series of seemingly autocratic dictates. These latest obligations provide our club with no additional benefits and lots of liabilities. And like the still yet to be fixed JOAD rules, the press release is self-contradictory in its requirements. Do archers have to be full members to earn pins or not? Do *all* people who have frequent contact with athletes (which would include all athletes) have to have background check, Safe Sport training and level 2 certs? It would be ridiculous to require that the nice retired accountant who sometimes signs in archers and takes payments at our morning session to have all of those things, yet she certainly has "frequent contact" with archers. 

We are primarily a recreational archery program for kids and adults, and we are working on expanding to provide additional coaching for more serious archers under the direction of our L4 head coach. Right now we are largely a drop-in program rather than a competitive club and teach a mix of first-time archers and returning regulars every week. The changes as currently stated by Denise Parker would require every first time archer we teach to pay $15 to USA Archery. No exception was mentioned for introductory instruction, school programs, private coaching, birthday parties, summer camps, etc. 

We enjoy introducing first time archers to archery and USA Archery's shooting methods and conduct. And they are how we keep the program going. Every organization needs an influx of new people to compensate for natural attrition rates. Decreasing our ability to recruit new people into archery is bad for the sport of archery and bad, ultimately, for USA Archery.

The changes may also affect our ability to retain archers. We've had great success with monthly JOAD and AAP pin shoots. They've energized the archers in our program and helped them set goals. The shoots add fun and variety to our sessions, which is important since archery is a repetitious sport. But it will be harder to get people to shoot for their first pins if they have to pay an additional $15 for a "temporary membership" for every pin shoot on top of the $15 they already paid for a "recreational membership" (or pay for full membership). It will not only be a barrier to entry it will make us look like a sleazy organization trying to nickle and dime people with add on fees that provide no tangible benefit to our customers, less tangible than the extended warranties retailers like Radio Shack and Best Buy try to push on every sale to increase their profits.

_*Reduced Volunteerism*_

Parker says everyone who has frequent contact with athletes needs to have a background check, Safe Sport training and a level 2 cert. You know who has frequent contact with athletes in a JOAD/AAP program? **Everybody**. Are all athletes going to be required to have background checks? The press release is inconsistent, and also makes no differentiation between coaches who deal only with adults and those who deal with minors - a lack of differentiation that can also sometimes be found in the USOC's safe sport model document.

_*Nanny State*_



> But going forward, USA Archery MUST capture membership with EVERYONE who is engaged in any activity related to USA Archery, not only so that they can agree to the terms of membership and accept the Code of Conduct, but also so that if they are ever deemed ineligible because of past claims or criminal activity, we can more quickly identify these individuals and keep them from participating in USA Archery activities and programs.


Except that USA Archery doesn't do background checks on members (yet). And if they are "deemed ineligible" then you already have identified them, otherwise how would you have deemed them ineligible?

This is brought to you by the same people who banned Justin Hush from archery **for life** because of a drug conviction. Even if that made sense at the Olympic level (and I'm not convinced the apparently reduced _life-time_ ban was appropriate), I don't think holding all archer's nationwide to standards made for the Olympics is necessarily appropriate.

I do support many of the goals in the Safe Sport initiative. I'm against hazing, harassment, discrimination, etc. However, I'm not sure USA Archery's attempt to implement those goals is an affective way to meet them.

*We Are Not Employees*

Parker closes with this:



> We know that change is hard, but we hope that you will all support USA Archery in these changes. Sport is ever changing and we must keep up with the standards set by our partners in order to maintain a healthy environment for athletes and all participants within our clubs, teams and events. Many thanks to all of you in advance for your support of these new initiatives.


This sounds like the kind of email that goes out to employees when a company is restructuring and most of them are about to be fired. We are not employees. Rather than thank us in advance, why not consult us in advance? We are your membership, after all, not your employees. We are your archers, your coaches, your fans, your base. But not, it seems, your primary concern.

To a large degree, I understand that USA Archery has little choice. Either follow the IOC and USOC dictates or lose the cash cow that is the Olympics. Yet that isn't how this press release is phrased. It is phrased as if it is all for our own good, and I really can't see it that way.


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## Warbow (Apr 18, 2006)

Jim C said:


> in other words, people who are going to engage in sexual abuse of children are not going be deterred by this silly CYA nonsense. All this is going to do is lose us lots of volunteers and kill the creation of more clubs


I think this is generally the case. People who are already registered sex offenders are already banned from working with children. Those who are predators who are not registered offenders will pass background checks. The cursory background check is no assurance of good behavior, and only a bit more effective than the "Have your bags ever been out of your control" question the airports use to ask every time you checked baggage.

The problem with organizations like the boy scouts, Catholic church and the like was primarily with **institutional coverups** that enabled offenders to continue to get away with their crimes within the organization rather than with a lack of background checks (which, in the case of hiring a child molesting priest would come up clean thanks to the institutional cover up). 

Being pro-active is a good thing, better than waiting for something to happen and then offering a knee-jerk response, yet this feels like a proactive knee jerk response.

The Safe Sport initiative may help re-enforce the idea that covering up molestation unacceptable. Kids come first, not your organization. Yet my impression from this press release is that the organization comes first--no, at the expense of kids, not exactly. But rather that the organization comes first rather than the needs of the members, hence the one-size-fits-all requirement that all volunteers must have background checks, Safe Sport training and level 2 certs all at their own expense. 

If USA Archery wants all this control and hierarchy then they should hire all the coaches themselves, subject to federal and state anti-discrimination and privacy laws. Then they could pay for all the training and background screenings rather than their employees. :dontknow:


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## Warbow (Apr 18, 2006)

limbwalker said:


> It's more clear than ever that our sport needs two seperate organizations - one for elite international competition, and one for grassroots, amateur archers. ...
> 
> FWIW, I'm choosing to ignore all of this until the annual meeting in Ohio, where I hope ALL of you are there to speak up.
> 
> John


Ironically, the grass roots archers are, perhaps, the ones least likely to be able to travel to Ohio to be heard.

Frankly, it is silly that in the age of the internet that people have to fly across the country to meet face to face to have their opinions matter to a national organization which has a diverse and geographically scattered membership. I'm glad you'll be there arguing for broader support for archers and archery.

Just be sure to tell them in advance that you wish to address them or you won't be allowed to, IIRC :mg:


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## Matt_Potter (Apr 13, 2010)

I think the changes we are seeing reflect what is and has happened in USAswimming more so than archery - back ground checks on coaches is currently a huge and on going issue with USA swimming. 

Matt


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## midwayarcherywi (Sep 24, 2006)

As an FYI, a yearly membership in the NRA is $10, yet the fee for the proposed (fait accompli?) USAA new 1 day membership is $15?


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## titanium man (Mar 5, 2005)

Basically, it seems USAA wants to make independent, (non-USAT), STAR tournaments charge $15 more to our NFAA friends who shoot under the present USAA/NFAA agreement. I thought if you were shooting a STAR and set a National or World record, you had to be a USAA member anyway, so it would stick in the books. The reciprocity was so anyone could shoot who belonged to the two organizations. You still didn't get all the benefits of shooting a STAR unless you were a USAA member. 

I still don't get this one day thing? I go to Wisconsin and fish, I buy a 3 day pass for $15, and I have a heck of lot more fun. So a one day "archery" pass? Really!!!??? I wonder what they'll come up with next?


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## Beastmaster (Jan 20, 2009)

Warbow said:


> Ironically, the grass roots archers are, perhaps, the ones least likely to be able to travel to Ohio to be heard.
> 
> Frankly, it is silly that in the age of the internet that people have to fly across the country to meet face to face to have their opinions matter to a national organization which has a diverse and geographically scattered membership. I'm glad you'll be there arguing for broader support for archers and archery.
> 
> Just be sure to tell them in advance that you wish to address them or you won't be allowed to, IIRC :mg:


Actually, the "in person" requirement for the annual meeting may very well be embedded in the bylaws, with no provision for more modern equivalences. I'd have to read the bylaws (again) to be sure.


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## Beastmaster (Jan 20, 2009)

Just one quick statement before I head off to something far more important - my grandmother's 99th birthday party.....

I know I have emailed Denise, Mary Emmons, Sheri Rhodes, and others with regards to this. 

Other than Teresa Iaconi (who herself is a contractor rather than an employee), there are little to no people that are direct employs from USA Archery that really read this sub-forum of ArcheryTalk.

So - Please email them. Each time I have regarding this particular subject, I've gotten a generic form letter back from Mary (known as a generic form letter because people do talk outside of AT, and we do compare her replies), but at least there's been some response of some sort, such that it is. 

Fill their inboxes. Being vocal on here is great - being vocal directly to Denise and others is far more effective.

With that, I'm going to go stuff myself silly with food...

-Steve


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## HikerDave (Jan 1, 2011)

Jim C said:


> here is the problem
> 
> child abuse and pedophilia is NOT ACCIDENTAL behavior or is perpetrated DUE TO IGNORANCE
> 
> ...


I went ahead and took the class. The training mainly about recognizing the way that sexual predators operate and preparing the club and individuals to spot their actions and prevent any abuse. A lot of it is fairly common sense, such as transporting kids in a car pool instead of one on one with a coach, or making sure that travel arrangements are made well in advance so that everyone in a club is staying in a hotel close to the venue. Most abusers will pass a background check because they are well-respected members of the community so creating club policies that subvert their patterns of grooming potential victims (and their parents) is key.


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## TheAncientOne (Feb 14, 2007)

midwayarcherywi said:


> As an FYI, a yearly membership in the NRA is $10, yet the fee for the proposed (fait accompli?) USAA new 1 day membership is $15?


$5 would be more in line.

TAO


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## midwayarcherywi (Sep 24, 2006)

I wonder who is supposed to collect the activity memberships? Or is this something the end user can do on line? We've got enough stuff to do without doing extra paperwork for USAA.


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## hdracer (Aug 8, 2007)

My question is how does this affect adults shooting with a JOAD club? I don't have any children shooting with our club but I shoot as often as I can. I compete (or try to) in most of the Ohio JOAD/FITA tournaments. I have a US Archery membership but I am not a coach (of any level). Since I am currently the only adult compound shooter I get a lot of questions from our younger shooters, and I try to be as helpful as I can before deferring them to one of the main coaches.

Am I not going to be able to continue helping any of our shooters if I'm not a Level 2 coach with all the bells and whistles? FYI, I will continue to give help where needed.

Also, how will affect some of the more experienced senior shooters who fill in for the coaches in their absence? Many of our practices are run, or monitored, by the JOAD team captains. If they weren't there, practices would be fewer. Are they going to be required to acquire a Level 2 coaching certification?


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## Warbow (Apr 18, 2006)

hdracer said:


> My question is how does this affect adults shooting with a JOAD club? I don't have any children shooting with our club but I shoot as often as I can. I compete (or try to) in most of the Ohio JOAD/FITA tournaments. I have a US Archery membership but I am not a coach (of any level). Since I am currently the only adult compound shooter I get a lot of questions from our younger shooters, and I try to be as helpful as I can before deferring them to one of the main coaches.
> 
> Am I not going to be able to continue helping any of our shooters if I'm not a Level 2 coach with all the bells and whistles? FYI, I will continue to give help where needed.
> 
> Also, how will affect some of the more experienced senior shooters who fill in for the coaches in their absence? Many of our practices are run, or monitored, by the JOAD team captains. If they weren't there, practices would be fewer. Are they going to be required to acquire a Level 2 coaching certification?


They way it is currently written, I think you'd be considered a volunteer who has frequent contact with "athletes".

Protecting kids is a good thing, but the measures taken can get a bit ridiculous. I helped give a sword fighting for theater demonstration at a middle school for a few years running, but the last time was different. Due to rules changes we had to be under constant school official escort and we weren't allowed to leave the stage and talk to the kids after the demo - not even right in front of the stage under the supervision of school officials. We were treated like we were contagious and had to be kept in an isolation bubble.

The class HikerDave talked about doesn't seem like such a bad thing, but the details of how these changes are implemented do seem like they may go over-board and hurt archery more than they help it. Especially when they require screenings regardless of whether a program or coach teaches kids or not.


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## TheAncientOne (Feb 14, 2007)

Warbow said:


> The class HikerDave talked about doesn't seem like such a bad thing


I just finished the first four chapters and took the first test. It's mostly common sense. My suggestion is to do it now and not wait until the last minute, especially since the website freezes up once and a while. I can see this getting worse as more and more people access the training.

TAO


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## Serious Fun (May 12, 2003)

HikerDave said:


> I went ahead and took the class. The training mainly about recognizing the way that sexual predators operate and preparing the club and individuals to spot their actions and prevent any abuse. A lot of it is fairly common sense, such as transporting kids in a car pool instead of one on one with a coach, or making sure that travel arrangements are made well in advance so that everyone in a club is staying in a hotel close to the venue. Most abusers will pass a background check because they are well-respected members of the community so creating club policies that subvert their patterns of grooming potential victims (and their parents) is key.


Hi Dave,
How much time should I budget for the safe sport class certification?


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## HikerDave (Jan 1, 2011)

Serious Fun said:


> Hi Dave,
> How much time should I budget for the safe sport class certification?


The site said 90 minutes, but I think that it was a little less. I was comatose this morning from fixing my garage door all day yesterday so this morning was a good opportunity to do something that didn't require much thought or effort.


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## lizard (Jul 4, 2003)

I have read this thread, and commented, and HDRACER, and everyone else, HOW is USAA going to find out if you are or are not coaching? Is USAA going to send out little drones to watch us all and how we coach, and handle our clubs? How are they going to know if we are or are not collecting the $15 fee for trying it out, THAT FEE, IMHO, IS RIDICULOUS, and will drive newbies away, instead of attracting them to us. 

I sense a HUGE amount of frustration on the part of all of our grass root JOAD coaches and leaders who have produced some of the TOP archers in this country.

We just held our state JOAD tourney and I was talking to a master shooter and he said used to be a person wouldn't pick up a bow until they were in their late 20s. Then there was this 15 year old kid, who everyone said, "We're going to have to baby sit him!" Boy were they wrong! That person, y'all know, so I am not going to say who it is!
So, started JOAD, thanks to George Helwig and Charlie and Mildred Pierson.

Now we are getting to this idiocy (notice the initials IOC in idIOCy!) of having to be certified "safe", and certified L2 to coach....some of the most awesome coaches are not certified, nor do they care to be certified. I'm glad we are certified, but I can vouch for ALL my clubs coaches that we are SAFELY coaching kids. We've done a fine job thus far, and have had NO difficulties, or "violations" that would cause "inappropriate touching" of a student. Communication between a coach and a student is of utmost importance, and is necessary to achieve the levels to be able to send young men and women on to the OTC as RAs if that is where they want to be, and can AFFORD to be.

"Try it out" in our club lasts for 3 times, so I suppose I can charge $5/time and send that in to USAA? More paperwork and mail and inconvenience to be had....HOW will they enforce and administer this new fee structure? Someone, anyone, please explain!


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Liz. Two words...

Work around. 

I'm not interested in having one more recreational or amateur archer send another dollar to Co Springs only to see it used to fly an "official" to a venue, rent a car and pay for a hotel to sit around and "oversee" the proceedings for two days.

Just one instance of that is equal to about 60 initial memberships. In other words, 60 families are going to be inconvenienced and 60 forms will have to be completed and 60 people will have to cough up cash so that ONE USArchery official can get to travel and sit on their butts for two days. 

Don'tcha just love it... ?


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## Warbow (Apr 18, 2006)

lizard said:


> I have read this thread, and commented, and HDRACER, and everyone else, HOW is USAA going to find out if you are or are not coaching? Is USAA going to send out little drones to watch us all and how we coach, and handle our clubs? How are they going to know if we are or are not collecting the $15 fee for trying it out, THAT FEE, IMHO, IS RIDICULOUS, and will drive newbies away, instead of attracting them to us.
> ....
> "Try it out" in our club lasts for 3 times, so I suppose I can charge $5/time and send that in to USAA? More paperwork and mail and inconvenience to be had....HOW will they enforce and administer this new fee structure? Someone, anyone, please explain!





limbwalker said:


> Liz. Two words...
> 
> Work around.


It really doesn't seem that USA Archery has thought this through. Do they not know how archery clubs introduce people to archery? It isn't like a gym where they try to commit you to an annual membership before you've even tried it out, at least not at the archery clubs I know of. What would this mean to showing people archery at outreach events like the ones John does? (I'm guessing he could still do them, but could he even mention his JOAD club? Or would mentioning that affiliation invoke some sort of magic "everybody within breathing distance of a JOAD/AAP club must be a member of USA Archery" clause?)

Work arounds may be possible, or the new, yet to be published club rules may make work arounds - such as holding non-USA Archery approved shooting sesssions with non-members - grounds for disqualification of a club or even having its status revoked retroactively, though one hopes USA Archery won't go to such extremes. Also, work arounds mean forgoing the USA Archery insurance for any work around sessions. USA Archery might not know what's happening at a session, but the insurance company sure will if it means they can get out of paying a claim. Extra insurance will be a must for clubs that decide to "go rogue".

Competitive clubs need USA Archery in order to compete at USA Archery events. Recreational clubs like the one I work with, not as much. As of this time the club has no intention of dropping its affiliation, but USA Archery may price compliance with USA Archery rules out of the recreational archery market. If it comes down to either being able to affordably teach a full crew of first-time archers every week or or being affiliated with USA Archery, the club would likely have to go with the former. There's less point in having a recreational club if we can't keep teaching new archers at an reasonable price - and without being able to keep introducing archery to new people the club will dwindle due to attrition.

Better would be for USA Archery to stop treating all archery and archery clubs as if they are possessions of the USA Archery/USOC, though Beastmaster makes a fine point in noting that complaining on the forum alone will not result in any changes.


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## Beastmaster (Jan 20, 2009)

A few off the cuff comments.

1) One can take care of the non-USA Archery insurance needs by cross pollinating themselves to the NFAA. Pay the NFAA club dues and the 300 dollar a year insurance fee from Sadler Sports and you can run classes all week long under the NFAA. Only if/when one attempts to do something USA Archery based would you need (theoretically) to encumber your club to the USA Archery rule set.

2) Unless there's a wholesale change in the training regimen, the training that Level 2 coaches and up goes through still encompasses the NFAA *AND* USA Archery.

3) Bringing introductory classes under the NFAA flag would allow the majority of clubs to still operate identically, with a minimum of cost increases to your operational budget.

I know that the club I work for is highly considering this. And I'm the one that brought it up to the other club leaders. 60 percent of our kids that take classes from us are still in a non-competitive format where they don't even shoot for pins. The remaining 40 percent do shoot for pins, and the majority of them are already USA Archery members or was planning to become one once they earned their white pin.

And, a snide comment here - Bruce Cull would love it. I know from annual meeting reports from the NFAA and their State associations that Bruce has always been fearful that USA Archery membership would overtake theirs. If I were him, I would seize this opportunity and latch onto it hard. Promote it, even.

FYI - Steve


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## Warbow (Apr 18, 2006)

Mary Emmons writes that USA Archery will be posting a follow up FAQ and that "additional implementation updates will also be provided as available."

I'd say now is the time to take up Beastmaster's advice and contact USA Archery with all of your concerns. Once USA Archery commits to the details they are less likely, IMO, to be open to changing them. So get those concerns in now before they set the details in stone - or pixels or whatever.


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## Jim C (Oct 15, 2002)

so what are the ramifications of say CJO refusing to abide by this decree from on high? we are no longer an official JOAD club with the USA insurance I suppose. BUt we no longer will pay dues to an increasingly imperial organization that does not apparently act for the membership? I guess each club is going to have to decide if being affiliated with the USA is in its best interests. ANd the USA is going to have to decide if the membership is more important than keeping the USOC happy it seems. What is the proper answer? I don't know. BUt I do know that its not the membership driving this change. We just had our state JOAD tournament which I ran along with my CJO team and the other coaches who came sure weren't the ones pushing for this stuff. We are one of the more active FITA style states in the country and I don't recall ANYONE in our state sitting around and saying -we need to make every single kid who comes to a CJO or ACE or Crooked River or Columbus FITA archers meeting a Member of the USA right away. That's only going to severely limit growth of target archery. Nor have I heard any issues with any archers being abused by coaches in our state. In fact in all the years I have been involved in this, I am only aware of one incident. Sure, there must be more, but its nothing like some of the NCAA scholarship sports etc. Its not a pressing problem


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## Mulcade (Aug 31, 2007)

Jim, it's not that it's a pressing problem. It's a popular problem. It's all over the media and the various governing bodies are trying to make sure they don't end up in the middle of a **** storm without at least an umbrella. 

I don't think there are many of us here that would object strongly to a little bit of CYA from USAA. We do seem to agree that they seem to have skipped the umbrella and are going straight to the under ground bunker where no one goes in or out.

You know, I'm really curious what was tossed around the table when some of these questions came up as the board was deciding on these changes. I can't believe the points that have been made here weren't at least in some part broached at some point. Did they get glossed over? Did they decide the questions weren't important? Inquiring minds want to know.


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## tkaap (Nov 30, 2009)

midwayarcherywi said:


> It appears as if we will all be in for additional training in order to maintain our status. I'm not sure what value a level 1 holds for anyone. And finally, I see more local tournaments being held under the auspices of the NFAA, or no affiliation at all.



Hmm -- Once I get a free weekend I might set up a nice unaffiliated pin/award web site so that kids can get shiny things to recognize their fun and achievement without being under the thumb of the IOC. PM me with suggestions for catchy names, and maybe we can make this happen.


On the side of "train everyone to spot a pedophile" aspect of the program, I'm a full supporter. It sucks, but that's reality. Hanging's too good for some people, and there's no reason to let them anywhere close to a kid. Whether it's in a college locker room shower, an olympic swim team, or a school cafeteria -- criminal predators like that are found _everywhere_ there is access to kids. Yes, there is a CYA aspect to this requirement, but it's also the reality. So suck it up, get fingerprinted, learn to spot predatory patterns in their early stages. (and, on the flip side, the training should also cover the ways to protect our selves and colleagues against wrongful accusation).

That's the only way we can honestly ask parents to trust dropping their kids off at practice or events. 

As for archery safety training, SafeSport has nothing to do with it. And requiring membership won't help. Archery is safe only if the participants all use sound equipment and follow the safe routine practices. Find a way for your club to verify that all shooters know the routine, and you're good to go.


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## TomB (Jan 28, 2003)

Mulcade said:


> Jim, it's not that it's a pressing problem. It's a popular problem. It's all over the media and the various governing bodies are trying to make sure they don't end up in the middle of a **** storm without at least an umbrella.
> 
> I don't think there are many of us here that would object strongly to a little bit of CYA from USAA. We do seem to agree that they seem to have skipped the umbrella and are going straight to the under ground bunker where no one goes in or out.
> 
> You know, I'm really curious what was tossed around the table when some of these questions came up as the board was deciding on these changes. I can't believe the points that have been made here weren't at least in some part broached at some point. Did they get glossed over? Did they decide the questions weren't important? Inquiring minds want to know.


I think that what happened must be like when Microsoft comes out with new software. We will just let the customer debug it. I think it is likely this will be modified but what really concerns me is to even put forth version 1.0 like this. If we were to have a vote of no confidence by the members, the current board would be in trouble. This does not look like it was very well thought out and it was lets just throw it up against the wall and see what sticks. Many of the unintended consequences are obvious to the casual observer. The major issue for me is all the goodwill USA Archery gets from letting folks try before they buy just went right out the window. When I do an archery outreach and let 600 kids shoot their first arrows, I can't be asking them to fork over $15 and by the way, wait while I enter all this information in the database. So, if this is the policy we will not be doing archery goodwill outreaches. Nor, will level 1 classes be done for camp and church groups. What is frustrating for me is we finally have progress on the scoring matrix and maybe, maybe barebow JOAD, and now I get pushed back down the hill to start over. Someone turn off the lights when we are all gone.


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## titanium man (Mar 5, 2005)

TomB said:


> Someone turn off the lights when we are all gone.


Exactly! :thumbs_up


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## midwayarcherywi (Sep 24, 2006)

One more point, as if there are not enough. We have teens who became level 1 instructors to help with the JOAD program. The age requirement for level 1 is 15. The age requirement for level 2 is 18. What can be done to rectify this? We don't want our young leaders left in the cold.


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## Beastmaster (Jan 20, 2009)

midwayarcherywi said:


> One more point, as if there are not enough. We have teens who became level 1 instructors to help with the JOAD program. The age requirement for level 1 is 15. The age requirement for level 2 is 18. What can be done to rectify this? We don't want our young leaders left in the cold.


I know that some people have asked that the Level 2 age requirement be dropped back down to 16.


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## Serious Fun (May 12, 2003)

HikerDave said:


> The site said 90 minutes, but I think that it was a little less. I was comatose this morning from fixing my garage door all day yesterday so this morning was a good opportunity to do something that didn't require much thought or effort.


Thanks Dave, The course videos and tests took about 90 minutes as projected. I like how the SafeSport offering provides some standards of care and provides information on what to look for and appropriate responses. I can see clubs promoting that they embrace the SafeSport program as a way to attract like minded club members.


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## Warbow (Apr 18, 2006)

Beastmaster said:


> I know that some people have asked that the Level 2 age requirement be dropped back down to 16.


Right now minors are exempt from the background checks. I wonder if they raised the age limit as part of requiring background checks for L2s?

It is certainly the case that 16 year old can master all of the L2 material. Will teens under 18 not be allowed to have "frequent contact" with athletes and give instruction? :dontknow:


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## TomB (Jan 28, 2003)

Warbow said:


> Right now minors are exempt from the background checks. I wonder if they raised the age limit as part of requiring background checks for L2s?
> 
> It is certainly the case that 16 year old can master all of the L2 material. Will teens under 18 not be allowed to have "frequent contact" with athletes and give instruction? :dontknow:


Interesting question. The statistics show a lot of the sports abuse is athlete on athlete, i.e. bullying. It is quite the conundrum.


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## Warbow (Apr 18, 2006)

TomB said:


> Interesting question. The statistics show a lot of the sports abuse is athlete on athlete, i.e. bullying. It is quite the conundrum.


And bullying, harassment and hazing by athletes are some of what the overall SafeSport program is supposed to help stop...and, frankly, is likely much more common than the predation it is also supposed to help stop.


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## maxicooper (Aug 13, 2012)

In shooting scene, there are 3 main organizations in the US:

*NRA*: National Rifle Association's Competitive Shooting Division offers a wide range of activities in all types of shooting, for everyone from the novice to the world-class competitor. *Mostly domestic events*.

*CMP*: Citizen Markmanship Program, a national organization dedicated to training and educating U. S. citizens in responsible uses of firearms and airguns through gun safety training, marksmanship training and competitions.* Domestic events*.

*USA Shooting*: Prepare American athletes to win Olympic and Paralympic medals, promote the shooting sports throughout the U.S., and govern the conduct of international shooting in the country. *Domestic and international events*.

Eventhough they are not perfectly working together hand in hand all the time, but thing work out pretty smoothly IMO. Also it is quite clear for athletes to select the part they would like to pursue.

So IMO, it might be a good idea to have USA Archery handle Olympics and other international athletes/events and let NFAA (and other organizations) take care of domestic events. My 2 cents.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

> Also it is quite clear for athletes to select the part they would like to pursue.


What I'm saying...

USArchery has been trying to serve too many masters for too long now, and the master with the $ will always win in that situation.


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## ArtV (Jan 29, 2008)

Join the ASA or IBO...no bull, just go and shoot....lol. And at most state sanctioned shoots you don't have to be a member of either org...they're glade to have you. With either org if you win...guess what? You get money, more money than you spent on entering.

If you're a member of the NFAA you get a tincy little medal for winning a State level shoot.....and you've spent $75.00 for the opportunity. I'd like to see an accounting of how membership money is spent. If USA has only 7,000 members it has only a few more folks than some churches.


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## Arcus (Jul 7, 2005)

ArtV said:


> Join the ASA or IBO...no bull, just go and shoot....lol. And at most state sanctioned shoots you don't have to be a member of either org...they're glade to have you. With either org if you win...guess what? You get money, more money than you spent on entering.


Doesn't mean much if you're not a 3D shooter.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Agreed. Art, the same could be said for NFAA. Pretty simple. Just go shoot, for the most part.

However people come to USArchery events for a reason. We shoot international rounds under international rules, and that's important to many people for many reasons. 

We just need a better way to do this without so much bureaucracy and politics.

IMO, the USOC is getting in the way of our NAA.

John


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## Warbow (Apr 18, 2006)

Arcus said:


> Doesn't mean much if you're not a 3D shooter.


Or if you are in California where there is no IBO or ASA (I think there is a single shoot in the works, but other than that, IBO and ASA are non-existent out here.)


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## Rick McKinney (Mar 4, 2008)

90% of the funds generated by the USAA via USOC and Easton are due to the elite archers. I would hazard to guess that the elite only get about 70% of those funds while the membership fees, tournament fees and other generated revenue is aimed towards the recreational archer. It was even worse 20+ years ago where about 90% of the funds went right back to the elites. Since I was on the USAA board, the USOC board and later worked for the USAA I have a good grasp of how that money is spent. 

What I suggest is that a group of volunteers get together and figure out a tournament tour for more of the recreational archer (elites are invited but the emphasis should be for the recreational archer). This would require a lot of volunteers to put the event on, the managing, and advertising of the event. Let the USAA do their thing when it comes to finding ways to win in the Olympics (that is where the real money comes from) and the volunteers work at the grass roots level. This will allow all to enjoy the events and give hope and aspiration to the youngsters who want to some day go to the Olympics. Also it allows those who just want to go and enjoy the event to socialize, to compete among their peers and if they are lucky they might get a few elites shooting to watch and learn about professional form.


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## knotdodger (Oct 2, 2005)

> Also it allows those who just want to go and enjoy the event to socialize, to compete among their peers and if they are lucky they might get a few elites shooting to watch and learn about professional form.


That's me.... I look forward to the couple outdoor events , in MI every year.


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## Warbow (Apr 18, 2006)

Rick McKinney said:


> What I suggest is that a group of volunteers get together and figure out a tournament tour for more of the recreational archer (elites are invited but the emphasis should be for the recreational archer). This would require a lot of volunteers to put the event on, the managing, and advertising of the event. Let the USAA do their thing when it comes to finding ways to win in the Olympics (that is where the real money comes from) and the volunteers work at the grass roots level. This will allow all to enjoy the events and give hope and aspiration to the youngsters who want to some day go to the Olympics. Also it allows those who just want to go and enjoy the event to socialize, to compete among their peers and if they are lucky they might get a few elites shooting to watch and learn about professional form.


This is what most club shoots in my area already are, though these are NFAA clubs 

I think the new "everybody in a 1-mile radius of a USA Archery club or event 'MUST' be a member" rules put a dent in the ability of JOAD/AAP clubs to be social and inter-mingle with other archers and organizations, much the way that very strict interpretations of religious dietary rules can (such as not being able to eat food not prepared or served in a kosher kitchen or house even if the ingredients are kosher). Likewise, the USOCs safe sport guidelines that coaches can't socialize even on-line (no personal FB befriending, no retweets of atheltete twitters, and many more) with "athletes" are reasonable guidelines for many situations (especially those involving adult coaches and child students), but are not appropriate for clubs that are more social and informal, where the "coaches" are more equals with the club members than "coaches".

It is very hard to let the elites do their thing and the recreational archers to theirs with USA Archery trying to force all clubs into the rules made for elite competition.


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## Humdinger (Apr 4, 2012)

Warbow said:


> Or if you are in California where there is no IBO or ASA (I think there is a single shoot in the works, but other than that, IBO and ASA are non-existent out here.)


Ibo had its first West Coast Traditional Championships here in California last April. It went really well and they plan on coming back to California next year. If all goes well we might get a Full IBO event with Open classes..

ASA on the other hand..


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## Rick McKinney (Mar 4, 2008)

Warbow said:


> I think the new "everybody in a 1-mile radius of a USA Archery club or event 'MUST' be a member" rules put a dent in the ability of JOAD/AAP clubs to be social and inter-mingle with other archers and organizations


Are you sure about these new rules? I can appreciate a good fear mongering that appears to be rampant here on this thread but the rules will not be implemented for 6 months. This gives everyone a good opportunity to find out the truth and to fix issues that might need fixing. A lynch mob is really not necessary right now.


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## Rick McKinney (Mar 4, 2008)

Warbow said:


> It is very hard to let the elites do their thing and the recreational archers to theirs with USA Archery trying to force all clubs into the rules made for elite competition.


Actually we did this all the time years ago. We even came together at the National Target Championships in Oxford, Ohio and had a great event. The nights were full of BBQ's, sing-alongs, USAT seminars, meetings at the Baskin-Robins uptown.... Although there were a hand-full of serious elites focusing on winning the National Title, many were there to have a good time and respected each other's views, whether they be elite, recreational, family or beginners.


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## Rick McKinney (Mar 4, 2008)

I guess what disturbs me most is that some of you (IMO) appear to want to cause a rift between two groups. I believe the two groups can get along and should. How do you get kids to enjoy the sport and see their idols or heros like Jenny Nichols or Brady Ellison or Jake Kaminski or Reo Wilde or Jamie Van Natta if you all want to split away from them? They do a lot of good in this sport and they deserve our respect and admiration. The tournaments they go to are there to help them get better to become the best we can offer. The recreational archer should consider why they go to these events. If they choose to go, they should respect the reason it is there. If not, there are several events you can go to that is more social minded and yet you can still have a great competition. I just shot in Tulare, CA at the Cotton Boll where there were 188 archers on the line. All having a good time and very few elites. The cost was $35. The judges were first class and the hosts were outstanding. It was a good time for all. I am getting ready to go the the CA State Championships where there will be over 300 archers there. The cost is $40 and there is no doubt most will have a great time and 90+% will be recreational archers. Those of you want want to complain about the so called "Cups" and USAT ranking events should rethink their idealism. The cost is more because there are more requirements at the event to comply with international rules. 

The safesport ideal is a great one. We need it. Just because you don't see it doesn't mean it is not happening. Most of these issues are kept quite and some have settled out of court (yes, in archery). Also, we should not forget that verbal abuse is rampant here in archery. Some of these coaches (and parents) are brutal to some of the kids. I really hope we can find ways to stay ahead of the growth. This sport is not the small clubbish (sp?) it used to be. There are many more people wanting to be a part of it. As for requiring membership, remember what I said above, we are not 100% of the final determination and meaning of what has been said. We have 6 months to work on it and refine it. So quit the *****'n and find ways to help instead of stir'n the pot! You just might be complaining about nothing! 

Sigh....rant off....


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## Warbow (Apr 18, 2006)

Rick McKinney said:


> Are you sure about these new rules? I can appreciate a good fear mongering that appears to be rampant here on this thread but the rules will not be implemented for 6 months. This gives everyone a good opportunity to find out the truth and to fix issues that might need fixing. A lynch mob is really not necessary right now.


I agree that a lynch mob is not necessary. I'm totally against lynch mobs. However, a reaction to the rules announced by USAA is **absolutely necessary** in order to get the change you suggest is possible before implementation. This isn't fear mongering, it is a measured response to the facts as stated in an official press release by USAA. If we can't rely on that to react to then USAA shouldn't have issued it. They didn't issue a statement about proposed rules, they issued a statement about _a fait accompli_, rules decided upon without any meaningful membership input.

If people simply kick back and trust USAA to get the rules right on their own, without input from the people they affect, then the rules as implemented will be exactly as stated, and as objected to, in the press release.

Let's take a look at some of what the press release said:



> USA Archery MUST capture membership with EVERYONE who is engaged in any activity related to USA Archery


[emphasis in original]

There isn't any wiggle room in that, RM. It is a universal statement. So, no, people are not overreacting. And hopefully, by contacting USA Archery about their concerns USA Archery may be able to quietly backtrack on that over-reaching, no exceptions requirement that would kill many one-off first time lessons and outreach programs which can't afford to send $15 per person to USA Archery.

Also, I think the ideals of safe sport are great. And for the most part, I don't think they'll have any affect on our club which doesn't have any hazing or bullying. (We only meet once a week at an outdoor public range in a casual, supportive setting - I'm pretty confident we'd notice that kind of behavior - we have a high instructor to student ratio and everything is literally in the open where we can see it. I support training to spot the kinds of situations that can lead to it and teach how to prevent it. However, I don't think requiring the retired accountant volunteer (a female club archer, BTW) who often does the morning sign in (and hence "frequent contact with athletes") to have an L2 is in any way reasonable. Background screening and safe sport training I can perhaps see, but not an L2 for a non-instructional volunteer.


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## lizard (Jul 4, 2003)

:shade: Great balls of fire!

That's exactly what I was getting at ;-)

USAA police be da--ed!





limbwalker said:


> Liz. Two words...
> 
> Work around.
> 
> ...


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## lizard (Jul 4, 2003)

Warbow,
You make a good point here, and I have expressed my concern about this to D.P. directly. They don't really care about what we all think, they are going by what the USOC wants, and I suppose, if they don't then they might be cut off....like that threat hasn't been there before! Ever wonder why we have KSL? The USOC wanted him from AUS so that we might be able to win some medals! Not that I don't have the utmost respect for Coach Lee, be cause I do. But at what cost are the grass roots archery clubs going to suffer because of what the USOC now wants. There isn't a lot of archery scholarships out there in college land. There isn't a whole lot of money to be made in archery LONG TERM. Joey Votto is going to make more money in one year than all the pro archers will make in a life time! Not to think about how much a pro NFL player makes i a year!
Sorry to prattle on a bit, but this movement to make certain everyone is safe is a bit silly, and unnecessary. 
Write to Denise Parker, and the USOC, let's see where we get with this...wanna bet the turn a deaf ear?





Warbow said:


> It really doesn't seem that USA Archery has thought this through. Do they not know how archery clubs introduce people to archery? It isn't like a gym where they try to commit you to an annual membership before you've even tried it out, at least not at the archery clubs I know of. What would this mean to showing people archery at outreach events like the ones John does? (I'm guessing he could still do them, but could he even mention his JOAD club? Or would mentioning that affiliation invoke some sort of magic "everybody within breathing distance of a JOAD/AAP club must be a member of USA Archery" clause?)
> 
> Work arounds may be possible, or the new, yet to be published club rules may make work arounds - such as holding non-USA Archery approved shooting sesssions with non-members - grounds for disqualification of a club or even having its status revoked retroactively, though one hopes USA Archery won't go to such extremes. Also, work arounds mean forgoing the USA Archery insurance for any work around sessions. USA Archery might not know what's happening at a session, but the insurance company sure will if it means they can get out of paying a claim. Extra insurance will be a must for clubs that decide to "go rogue".
> 
> ...


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## lizard (Jul 4, 2003)

These are good ideas, one other is that you could see if you can get your club insured under it's own insurance policy. I may look into this as we shoot at our house during the outdoor season. Just saying, we can all figure out a way to work around barriers that have been set before us like the orange barrels which plague our lives on a daily basis on our highways and byways! :mg:
I agree with the idea the NFAA should "exploit this" and make an offer to the JOAD clubs! 



Beastmaster said:


> A few off the cuff comments.
> 
> 1) One can take care of the non-USA Archery insurance needs by cross pollinating themselves to the NFAA. Pay the NFAA club dues and the 300 dollar a year insurance fee from Sadler Sports and you can run classes all week long under the NFAA. Only if/when one attempts to do something USA Archery based would you need (theoretically) to encumber your club to the USA Archery rule set.
> 
> ...


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## lizard (Jul 4, 2003)

OUR ARCHERS think this "safe coaching" thing is idiotic! JUST FYI! I asked one of the more senior members and he just laughed at it and thought it was stupid!




Jim C said:


> Nor have I heard any issues with any archers being abused by coaches in our state. In fact in all the years I have been involved in this, I am only aware of one incident. Sure, there must be more, but its nothing like some of the NCAA scholarship sports etc. Its not a pressing problem


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## Warbow (Apr 18, 2006)

lizard said:


> Warbow,
> You make a good point here, and I have expressed my concern about this to D.P. directly. They don't really care about what we all think, they are going by what the USOC wants,


They've made it so they have to. They've written their subservience to the USOC into their bylaws:



> Section 4.1.n
> peform all other obligations and duties imposed by the Sports Act and by the USOC on a National Governing Body.


Whereas there is no similar obligation to members. Instead, the USA Archery board may terminate any member without cause:



> Section 5.4. Suspension and Termination of Membership.
> The membership of any member may be terminated at any time with or without cause by the Board of Directors.


For anyone who wants to bring this up at the Annual Meeting:



> The Chair shall have authority to limit or end debate on any matter.
> 
> *	All new business to be brought before the meeting must be by resolution signed by at least five members and filed with the CEO at least forty-five days before the meeting.


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## Jim C (Oct 15, 2002)

USA has a fiduciary duty to act in good faith towards its membership. Terminating someone for no cause would in my professional opinion violate this duty which is implied under the TSAAPA. But what is true is that USA is more beholden to the USOC then its dues paying members. Maybe because it believes that the USOC's money is more important than the members.

The most important issue that I can see generating litigation is forcing compliance with the clubs. I as a certified coach, judge and Club director most likely has to comply with the IDIOTIC safe sport nonsense (I won't go into why I already know more than I ever want to know about child molestors, abusers etc but lets say I have had lots of training-including on the job). However, enforcing compliance on NON USA members who help a club is going to be a legal cesspool.

A murky area is what counts as having significant contacts with children so as to require the club to demand compliance. It appears to me that the only time this issue would actually come up is if there is that one in a thousand chance a club is sued because some volunteer is a pervert. 

however, I think the damage of this nonsense costing us good volunteers is going to be far more harmful

its nothing more than a CYA imposed by the USOC and the stuff trickles down upon the heads of the USA leadership who in turn shower us with this stuff


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## lizard (Jul 4, 2003)

Rick,
I don't think anyone ranting here is against the elite athletes! I certainly am NOT! I respect them greatly as I know the time they put in, and the effort they put forth to be in the position they are in. I have given the USOC many hundreds, maybe even thousands of dollars and asked they go to get archery to the forefront of the USOC, instead of our sport being considered a "red-headed step child" (non-glam sport), to support the athletes, so I speak from a financial giving prospectus here.
I think what is getting everyone's goat here, is the "announcement" the these rules WILL be implemented, without having a discussion with the membership/coaches about the issues they are proposing.
One idea might be to make the "safe coach" a part of the USAA coaches certification, while making us "old timer" coaches taking it even when we have proven that out club is successful with zero incident of any abuse, physical or verbal. Add to that the mandatory background checks, which I have on a monthly basis for purchasing a firearm or two, and to carry said firearm. 
I don't know what the answer is, but I think mandating something which isn't well thought out, is NOT a prudent thing to do, as we see in this thread there is a lot of concern about those of us who have been out here doing this for years with not incident, now we are TOLD we must conform? What the heck! Even some of our JOAD kids think this is silly! 
I'll also add to this that with our sue-happy society, I can somewhat see the "Safe Coach" thing, but not really. 
Just my response to your post.



Rick McKinney said:


> I guess what disturbs me most is that some of you (IMO) appear to want to cause a rift between two groups. I believe the two groups can get along and should. How do you get kids to enjoy the sport and see their idols or heros like Jenny Nichols or Brady Ellison or Jake Kaminski or Reo Wilde or Jamie Van Natta if you all want to split away from them? They do a lot of good in this sport and they deserve our respect and admiration. The tournaments they go to are there to help them get better to become the best we can offer. The recreational archer should consider why they go to these events. If they choose to go, they should respect the reason it is there. If not, there are several events you can go to that is more social minded and yet you can still have a great competition. I just shot in Tulare, CA at the Cotton Boll where there were 188 archers on the line. All having a good time and very few elites. The cost was $35. The judges were first class and the hosts were outstanding. It was a good time for all. I am getting ready to go the the CA State Championships where there will be over 300 archers there. The cost is $40 and there is no doubt most will have a great time and 90+% will be recreational archers. Those of you want want to complain about the so called "Cups" and USAT ranking events should rethink their idealism. The cost is more because there are more requirements at the event to comply with international rules.
> 
> The safesport ideal is a great one. We need it. Just because you don't see it doesn't mean it is not happening. Most of these issues are kept quite and some have settled out of court (yes, in archery). Also, we should not forget that verbal abuse is rampant here in archery. Some of these coaches (and parents) are brutal to some of the kids. I really hope we can find ways to stay ahead of the growth. This sport is not the small clubbish (sp?) it used to be. There are many more people wanting to be a part of it. As for requiring membership, remember what I said above, we are not 100% of the final determination and meaning of what has been said. We have 6 months to work on it and refine it. So quit the *****'n and find ways to help instead of stir'n the pot! You just might be complaining about nothing!
> 
> Sigh....rant off....


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## Warbow (Apr 18, 2006)

We need the contact info for the board of directors as they are the ones who must approve these changes.

The CEO can not implement these changes on their own. Instead, the proposed changes, such as the new membership categories, require changes to the bylaws. Surprisingly to me, that does not require a vote by membership. Instead, the board can change the bylaws at will:



> Section 22.1. Amendments
> These Bylaws may be amended, repealed, or altered, in whole or in part, and new Bylaws may be adopted, by a majority of directors of the Board at any regular or special meeting duly called and at which a quorum is present.


It takes only the vote of 5 of 9 of the board members to completely alter USA Archery's bylaws. Nothing is subject to review, input or vote by membership.

So being able to send your input to the board is pretty important. USA Archery does not publish contact information for the board on its website. However, it does keep public records of the board members and their business or home addresses at its office and must give you a copy if you give it 5 days notice and show up in person. (Well, until the board decides to change that provision at its own sole discretion...)



> f. a list of the names and business or home addresses of the current directors and officers;
> ...
> d. Scope of Members’ Inspection Rights.
> ...
> ...


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## Jim C (Oct 15, 2002)

BTW I have not seen a USA ballot in over four years. Back before we became minions of the USOC and had a board that we actually knew about, we had two directors from each region. We in the north region could vote for Darrell or Mark Miller etc. we saw them at tournaments and since DP and I have known each other for decades, I could tell him at JOAD if there was a problem. NOW I HAVE NO CLUE how this organization is run. I have not had a vote despite being

A) a judge
B) a coach
C) A CLUB DIRECTOR-club owner
D) an archer


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## lizard (Jul 4, 2003)

Here are the people on the USAA BOD:

USA Archery Board of Directors

Chair: Bill Corbin

First Term (2008-2009); Second Term (2010-2011); Third Term (2012-2013)

Bill Corbin – Independent 

First Term (2008-2009); Second Term (2010-2013)

Belinda Foxworth – Independent 

First Term (2008-2011); Second Term (2012-2015)

Skip Trafford - Grassroots (in Louisiana)

First Term (2010-2013)

Cindy Bevilacqua - Grassroots (in Pennsylvania)

First Term (2010-2011); Second Term (2012-2015)

Tom Green – Judge 

First Term (2008-2011); Second Term (2012-2015)

Linda Beck – Coach 

First Term (2010-2013)

Greg Easton – At-Large (Bet you can reach Greg through Easton Archery)

First Term (2010-2011); Second Term (2012-2015)

Erika Anschutz – Athlete 

First Term (2008-2009); Second Term (2010-2013)

Brady Ellison – Athlete (bet you could send Brady something at the Training center in Chula!) 

First Term (2009-2012)

I don't know their contact info, but if we all try to contact them somehow, it might do some good. I'd be willing to do the research to find their addresses...but that'll have to wait til tomorrow, because I'm getting sleepy, very sleepy!





Warbow said:


> We need the contact info for the board of directors as they are the ones who must approve these changes.
> 
> The CEO can not implement these changes on their own. Instead, the proposed changes, such as the new membership categories, require changes to the bylaws. Surprisingly to me, that does not require a vote by membership. Instead, the board can change the bylaws at will:
> 
> ...


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## Warbow (Apr 18, 2006)

Jim C said:


> BTW I have not seen a USA ballot in over four years. Back before we became minions of the USOC and had a board that we actually knew about, we had two directors from each region. We in the north region could vote for Darrell or Mark Miller etc. we saw them at tournaments and since DP and I have known each other for decades, I could tell him at JOAD if there was a problem. NOW I HAVE NO CLUE how this organization is run. I have not had a vote despite being
> 
> A) a judge
> B) a coach
> ...


I think the bylaws tell us why: based on the board's unlimited ability to change the bylaws (including how board members are elected and what their term limits and qualifications must be), votes by membership are entirely superfluous. 

Have the USA Archery bylaws always allowed the board unlimited power to change the bylaws? Or is that new?

I'm not familiar with common governance procedures of large non-profits, but my uninformed impression is that the unlimited power granted to the board of USA Archery to entirely change the bylaws at will at any meeting of their choice, in person or by writing, email, fax or telephone, without notice to anyone but fellow board members and without any input from membership is overly expansive for such an organization. :dontknow:


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## Jim C (Oct 15, 2002)

IIRC this new "Organization" was USOC IMPOSED as well


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## Warbow (Apr 18, 2006)

Jim C said:


> IIRC this new "Organization" was USOC IMPOSED as well


Do you mean the ability of the BOD to entirely change the bylaws at will? So that the USOC could have what ever it wants, whenever it wants it without having to worry about pesky org members and their needs getting in the way? :dontknow:

Perhaps RM can chime in and tell us if the NAA board he served on had absolute authority to change the entirely of the bylaws at will with a simple majority?

A quick check of USA Badminton's bylaws shows they also are subject to full change at will by a simple majority of the BOD, and the NFAA requires 2/3ds. 

I'm kind of surprised the bylaws are all subject to complete change or revocation without any input or approval by the voting membership. It's like having a constitution that the senate can overturn with a simple majority. The bylaws mean nearly nothing if they can be overturned in their entirety by a simple majority vote of the BOD.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Rick,

A few questions...



> 90% of the funds generated by the USAA via USOC and Easton are due to the elite archers.


Then how does NFAA pull off such huge events with so much prize money, without the USOC?



> What I suggest is that a group of volunteers get together and figure out a tournament tour for more of the recreational archer (elites are invited but the emphasis should be for the recreational archer). This would require a lot of volunteers to put the event on, the managing, and advertising of the event.


I'm sorry, but how is this different than what happens now? I just shot a national championship event where a few (very few) uncompensated volunteers got together and did ALL the work for USArchery, managed it, advertised it, took care of the finances, logistics, etc, etc. without nary a finger lifted by USArchery staff to pull it off that I could see.

Every time I see this, myself and quite a few others ask ourselves the question "now, why do we need to work so hard to pay their salary?"


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## Rick McKinney (Mar 4, 2008)

Warbow. You are absolutely right. 

Since most of you know far more about this organization than I ever will, I will let you "go get 'em!"


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## Warbow (Apr 18, 2006)

Rick McKinney said:


> Since most of you know far more about this organization than I ever will, I will let you "go get 'em!"


Ah, good natured sarcasm from a former NAA BOD member, IIRC. 

I think I've been pretty up front about my lack of inside knowledge of how USA Archery works internally - a situation exacerbated by USA Archery itself and so pervasive that even smart and experienced people heavily involved in USA Archery like Jim C are unsure of how USA Archery's current decision making processes work. 

I'm going by what USA Archery has clearly said in its official press release, and by its own published bylaws. And I've asked if you might clarify whether the BOD had the same sweeping powers to change the entirety of the bylaws at will by a simple majority.


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## Rick McKinney (Mar 4, 2008)

John, Sorry I didn't read your comment before I posted. 

The NFAA is a different organization. Their numbers are not growing. In Indiana where there were 1200+ members and about 50 actual field clubs, there are less than a 1/3 of that now and only 2 clubs left. I don't think that is growth. Maybe they are good at a few good events but I question that they are any better off than the USAA. The ASA is growing and I would guess that they are growing better than any other organization. I am hearing comments that the IBO is slipping but not really sure since I have heard it from those who might be biased. Also, the NFAA does not have to comply with the USOC for their funding and making sure the USAA stays the Olympic sport. The one thing I can say about the NFAA is that they do not change. The Vegas shoot has been there for years but had changed hands several times before the NFAA took it over. The huge money you mention is fairly simple. 1500 archers x $150 per person. That's just under a quarter of a million dollars. With sponsorship dollars from several manufacturers, it is fairly simple to figure out. I think there are two other events they put on that appear to be fairly large and successful. Indoor Nationals and something out east. These events bring in enough archers and have enough sponsors that it works. I will say that it's not a bad idea to have 100 board members to have as volunteers than the 8 or so the USAA has!  2 board members per state is not a bad thing until you want to decide on something. 

The National Field Championships of the USAA is one of the most challenging events they offer. Very few archers show up and the course is normally fresh. Thus it is incredibly difficult. Not many want to host it and not many want to shoot it. I have put on a few myself. However, it is a WA event that we have to put an effort in and it is, by volunteers.  Just like all of the Star FITA events are run by volunteers. 

I guess what I am saying, you can have your NAA events (star FITA's, club events, etc.) and then you can have the Elite National Championships and USAT events. You can even set up your own National Championships with maybe 2 double FITA's again and have fun at it. But don't expect the paid staff to do much since they have their hands full. If you don't like the way the USAA is closely attached to the USOC, then be like Loretta. Start your own organization with Easton money. or join up with the NFAA and deal with all of their politics.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

> I will say that it's not a bad idea to have 100 board members to have as volunteers than the 8 or so the USAA has! 2 board members per state is not a bad thing until you want to decide on something.


From what I have seen, USArchery staff spend a great deal more of their time concerned with meeting the needs of the USOC, certain sponsors, and our elite archers than with hosting events for the membership. Not a criticism, mind you, just an observation. I'll be the first to say that some of the staff are greatly overworked for the amount they are paid.

As far as "deciding on something..." there is an advantage to having so many involved in the decision process - it's very difficult to change anything. This is what our nation's forefathers wanted with our U.S. Congress. They wanted change to come slowly, if even at all. I think some of the changes we've seen in the past 10 years with the NAA have come too quickly.

The current administration of USArchery reminds me more of the Obama administration. Things are changing quickly, but nobody can tell you how or why if you ask.



> But don't expect the paid staff to do much since they have their hands full.


Every time I shoot an NFAA event, I see the paid staff working their butts off - as it should be. I can't tell you how many times I've seen USArchery staff sitting around, visiting with folks while local volunteers work their *****es off. It doesn't look good at all when 20% of all the registration fees go to fund the travel and salary of a few staff that are more than happy to stand by and watch as uncompensated volunteers do all the work.



> I guess what I am saying, you can have your NAA events (star FITA's, club events, etc.) and then you can have the Elite National Championships and USAT events. You can even set up your own National Championships with maybe 2 double FITA's again and have fun at it. But don't expect the paid staff to do much since they have their hands full. If you don't like the way the USAA is closely attached to the USOC, then be like Loretta. Start your own organization with Easton money. or join up with the NFAA and deal with all of their politics.


Sounds a lot like what I've suggested, really.


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## TheAncientOne (Feb 14, 2007)

lizard said:


> OUR ARCHERS think this "safe coaching" thing is idiotic! JUST FYI! I asked one of the more senior members and he just laughed at it and thought it was stupid!


I don't have a problem with it. 

It's a 90 minute training that you can do piecemeal. Most of it has to do with bullying and hazing, some of it on sexual harrassment. Besides anything that keeps the predators away from my kids is fine with me. I'm sure that the insurance companies are requiring this at this point.

TAO


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## Jim C (Oct 15, 2002)

TheAncientOne said:


> I don't have a problem with it.
> 
> It's a 90 minute training that you can do piecemeal. Most of it has to do with bullying and hazing, some of it on sexual harrassment. Besides anything that keeps the predators away from my kids is fine with me. I'm sure that the insurance companies are requiring this at this point.
> 
> TAO


here is the issue that I suppose people who don't have a law enforcement or a litigation background might not get. there are basically two kinds of harm that one person can visit on another

1) negligence or accidental harm

2) intentional or deliberate harm

teaching people about safe driving practices or safe gun storage practices or how to be a lifeguard at a pool helps alleviate accidental damage

it doesn't stop someone who intentionally wants to shoot someone or drown someone

THe main point of this SS stuff is to create plausible deniability if there is a law suit based on intentional abuse of a child athlete so as to cover the butts of the USA and the USOC.


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## Warbow (Apr 18, 2006)

Jim C said:


> here is the issue that I suppose people who don't have a law enforcement or a litigation background might not get. there are basically two kinds of harm that one person can visit on another
> 
> 1) negligence or accidental harm
> 
> ...


I disagree with you to a certain degree on this. While I'm opposed to knee jerk responses that are out of proportion to actual risk, I think that training people about how sexual predation works can help reduce the opportunities that predators will have to get private access to children. You can't stop all intentional harm to children any more than you can stop all intentional burglary, but that doesn't mean you forgo putting locks on your house or keeping ladders and other potential impromptu burglar tools out of where criminals can use them against you. It is possible, I think, to give people an awareness that can have an actual, if limited, positive impact on this. 

As a civil litigator you are more familiar than I am with the concept of an "attractive nuisance." Sometimes the actions of other people are considered your problem if you created a situation that attracted them. An improperly set up JOAD program could constitute a sort of attractive nuisance to child predators (I think the Catholic church, in many instances, provided just that (and I'm not claiming that any of this meets the actual legal definition of "attractive nuisance" - IANAL)). So, simple training to prevent that kind of set up is probably not a bad thing in and of itself. However, a bad implementation of such a program could be a bad thing in the aggregate.

What I don't know, though, is to what degree the anti-predation training is a disproportionate response. People get worried about vivid perceived dangers rather than the actual statistical, but mundane, dangers children face. They worry about stranger abduction rather than the pool in their back yard, the thing that is far, far more likely to injure or kill their child. And that misallocation of worry means that people prepare for the wrong risks. I don't know if USA Archery and the USOC are doing that here or not. We'd need to see sound stats to know.


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## Jim C (Oct 15, 2002)

Warbow said:


> I disagree with you to a certain degree on this. While I'm opposed to knee jerk responses that are out of proportion to actual risk, I think that training people about how sexual predation works can help reduce the opportunities that predators will have to get private access to children. You can't stop all intentional harm to children any more than you can stop all intentional burglary, but that doesn't mean you forgo putting locks on your house or keeping ladders and other potential impromptu burglar tools out of where criminals can use them against you. It is possible, I think, to give people an awareness that can have an actual, if limited, positive impact on this.
> 
> What I don't know, though, is to what degree the anti-predation training is a disproportionate response. People get worried about vivid perceived dangers rather than the actual statistical, but mundane, dangers children face. They worry about stranger abduction rather than the pool in their back yard, the thing that is far, far more likely to injure or kill their child. And that misallocation of worry means that people prepare for the wrong risks. I don't know if USA Archery and the USOC are doing that here or not. We'd need to see sound stats to know.


making every volunteer that might have contact with children do this is moronic IMHO. people who are not members of the USA cannot be forced to do this and putting the burden on a club to enforce this is contrary to common sense


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## Number46 (Dec 26, 2012)

Did you see this?

http://www.teamusa.org/USA-Archery/...SafeSport-and-Membership-Initiatives-for-2014


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## ArtV (Jan 29, 2008)

lizard said:


> These are good ideas, one other is that you could see if you can get your club insured under it's own insurance policy. I may look into this as we shoot at our house during the outdoor season. Just saying, we can all figure out a way to work around barriers that have been set before us like the orange barrels which plague our lives on a daily basis on our highways and byways! :mg:
> I agree with the idea the NFAA should "exploit this" and make an offer to the JOAD clubs!


Our NFAA Club carries it's own insurance.

By the way, last year at our NFAA State Outdoor Championships....25 total shooters showed up. The year before we elected to make it a one day shoot instead of dragging it out for the typical two days. Not enough shooters to worry about. The NFAA has shrunk dramatically in the past 20 years. However, you can still find 250 to 300 shooters and family members showing up for a weekend local club shoot at a IBO or ASA event. I'm not suggesting everyone should consider switching to IBO or ASA. I am only suggesting someone should look at what makes them successful and perhaps adopting some of their philosophy.

The only events the NFAA actually draws what is considered good participation is at National events. 

The reason the IBO and ASA have very little going on in Calif is because they are hunting oriented orgs.....Calif is an unfriendly State.

How many show up for any local USArchery events...or do they have any local events?

My point is if USArchery wants to make changes that mess with people for their own purposes (cover their butts) then people might very well just gravitate to local events. We have two clubs that allow Oly style shooting if 2 or more show up.


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## Warbow (Apr 18, 2006)

Number46 said:


> Did you see this?
> 
> http://www.teamusa.org/USA-Archery/...SafeSport-and-Membership-Initiatives-for-2014


Good link. It's a post hoc FAQ by USA Archery that shows USA Archery decided upon and announced sweeping changes to the USA Archery rules without so much as knowing what the rules meant to its members or meant at all.



> *Level 1 Instructors and/or volunteers assist my club and are teaching archers. Are they required to become Level 2 instructors?*
> USOC Safe Sport Guidelines require that anyone who has “frequent access” to athletes go through a background screen and take the safe sport training. We are working with the USOC to define exactly what “frequent access” means, but the intent is to do the best we can to educate and screen those who work with our club members on a regular basis.


The term used in the press release was "frequent contact", but whatever, USA archery didn't bother to figure out what that even meant before saying rules would be changed so members would have to conform to rules based around these terms. 

And they can't keep their story straight. In the press release Parker said pin shoots would require participants " to purchase a full Youth, Adult or Family Membership *or at the very least a Temporary Membership* for that specific event."[emphasis added]. Now they say they have to have full membership, the temporary membership option has dissapeared:



> *What type of membership is required to participate in the JOAD or Adult Archery Achievement Award program?*
> Youth, Adult or a Family membership will be required for participation in the JOAD or Adult Archery Achievement Award program.


And free archery lessons? Forget it. USA Archery didn't bother to consider that, but they are looking into the **possibility** of making it happen - but just for special events, if it happens at all. So, ongoing free instruction at every session? Forget about it - if you are a club.



> *If instructors from our club operate a "try archery" booth, 4-H or similar camp experience would this be considered a club activity and would Recreational membership be required?*
> 
> If the club sponsors the event, and expects that this event be covered under USA Archery’s insurance, then yes, the club would need to require all participants to join USA Archery as a recreational membership in addition to any club-specific fees for participation.


So, yes, the broad overreach is confirmed as actually true.



> If a USA Archery member level 2 and above certified instructor (NFAA member certified instructors need to check with NFAA on their specific insurance coverage) is putting on the event, they have liability insurance that protects them during the event through their USA Archery coach insurance policy.


This is a bit weird. They require all clubs to have a level 2 and say that the coach is covered for events, but they also say all clubs have to have all people be members. Sounds like what JOAD and AAP clubs should do is get rid of their club membership and just keep their instructional credentials that allow them to teach with insurance policies.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

> Sounds like what JOAD and AAP clubs should do is get rid of their club membership and just keep their instructional credentials that allow them to teach with insurance policies.


We're not going to change a thing from what we've been doing. If USArchery wants to come audit us, along with hundreds of other JOAD clubs, then so be it. Fact is, they're lucky to have clubs like ours and volunteers like all of us to feed archers and dollars into the ponzi scheme that is the USOC.

There are times when I wonder just how far some can stretch the word "Olympic" to make people do absurd things.

I work with non-profit support groups in my business. And just like the USOC and USArchery, time and time again, I see the full time staff expect citizen volunteers to share their views and interests, and expect them to dedicate as much of their life -off the clock, of course - as they do on the clock. In either case, it's not a reasonable thing to ask.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Last night, I was a guest speaker at a new JOAD club's awards banquet in Houston. Today, I helped another new JOAD club in San Antonio set up the field for their very first outdoor shoot.

What struck me at both events, was that nearly EVERY parent volunteer, and JOAD archer, hardly knew, or didn't know, that USArchery even exists. 

Fact is, local volunteers make so many things happen in archery every single day that USArchery staff and board members will never know about, that all the rules in the world just will hardly change the grassroots aspect of this sport at all.

The recent JOAD and AAP matrices will have more of an impact on the programs than any of this "news" will have.

Out here in the real world, that's just the way it is.

John


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## Warbow (Apr 18, 2006)

limbwalker said:


> The recent JOAD and AAP matrices will have more of an impact on the programs than any of this "news" will have.


Indeed. The changes to the matrices are very welcome - and thanks to you for field testing and fine tuning them.

The other changes, though, affect whether or not we'll continue to offer them. It is not wholly unreasonable for USA Archery to say they should be available to members only. But, for our club, which is more of a drop in program than a "club", it is a fairly big change in policy since we've been able let kids try for their first 4 pins without demanding membership of them. And adults, we didn't even ask. It is only recently I've heard USA Archery (in the press release in this thread's OP) claim that adults currently have to be members to earn black and above. There is no AAP pin awards hand book that says that, AFIK.

Our club, could, of course, offer our own awards based on the matrices. Game rules are not copyrightable  (though the layout and artwork of the matrices can be). But, we'd prefer to stay a regular old JOAD - if we can afford to.


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## TomB (Jan 28, 2003)

We certify many, many level 1 instructors for church camps and other summer programs the have an archery component. I think this kills them unless they find a work around. The 4h archery programs that depend on the level 1 instructors we train are also endangered.


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## midwayarcherywi (Sep 24, 2006)

limbwalker said:


> Last night, I was a guest speaker at a new JOAD club's awards banquet in Houston. Today, I helped another new JOAD club in San Antonio set up the field for their very first outdoor shoot.
> 
> What struck me at both events, was that nearly EVERY parent volunteer, and JOAD archer, hardly knew, or didn't know, that USArchery even exists.
> 
> ...


I believe you will end up being correct. Almost 100% of what we do at the club level is under the radar. We try to serve our members the best we can and if the ***t ever hits the fan, most clubs, including ours, carries liability insurance.

It is not that anyone is thumbing their nose at USAA. USAA simply does not have the structure, or manpower to support clubs in a very meaningful way.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

> It is not that anyone is thumbing their nose at USAA. USAA simply does not have the structure, or manpower to support clubs in a very meaningful way.


I think this is 100% correct. I appreciate our program being part of USArchery as a whole, and respect the JOAD program structure immensely (which is why I took the job of reviewing the scoring matrices and the job of state JOAD coordinator so seriously) but again, in the real world, I'd estimate that 80% or more of JOAD participants and parents really couldn't care less whether JOAD is associated with USArchery, the NFAA, 4-H or IBO or ASA. 

They just want to shoot. 

And if USArchery makes it too difficult for them to do that, then they will find another structure to work under, like NASP, or NFAA, etc.

Already, here in Texas, the NFAA/TFAA kicks USArchery's butts when it comes to offering real events that entry level archers can shoot. Their SYWAT indoor series is well attended and well regarded. We in TSAA are trying to follow that lead with our TOTS outdoor series, but if the USOC's attorneys choose to get in the way of those events, I'm sure that the TFAA will be happy to support those as well.

Bottom line is that we're going to find a way to help kids enjoy archery, period. Folks like Tom and I can do this with, or without, the USOC's approval.


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## Warbow (Apr 18, 2006)

TomB said:


> We certify many, many level 1 instructors for church camps and other summer programs the have an archery component. I think this kills them unless they find a work around. The 4h archery programs that depend on the level 1 instructors we train are also endangered.


Summer archery programs taught by Level 1s were never insured through USA Archery and aren't subject to JOAD club rules. So, I'm not sure how these rules changes would have any affect on those.


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## TomB (Jan 28, 2003)

Warbow said:


> Summer archery programs taught by Level 1s were never insured through USA Archery and aren't subject to JOAD club rules. So, I'm not sure how these rules changes would have any affect on those.


Understood but the level 1 instructors certified by USA archery coaches are thus an extension of USA archery and have "frequent contact" with their campers or 4h participants. Would they then not come under the Safe Sport rules and membership guidelines? It has nothing to do with the JOAD club rules. I see no other way but to divorce these programs from USA archery and the USOC overbearer.


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## Ms.Speedmaster (Dec 10, 2010)

OK, here's my take on this as a level II, and new JOAD leader, looking to grow the program and get more instructors in the class, in addition to our offering beginner classes, summer workshops and lessons...

There have been volunteers in our class who I don't know from Adam. Some are JOAD parents, others are not. It has been a concern for me that there are no background checks on these people working with my students. Fortunately, this program is through a Parks and Rec. department, so it is very easy to get these checks done under the auspices of city requirements. Not all programs are in this position. I had planned on certifying several of these folks as level I in August. However, discussions with other coaches brought this saga to my attention, and I have just read everything available about it. 

I also work in a church, where volunteers are the driving force behind the machine. Every person working with children or handling money has to go through a background check. You would think it was initiated from due diligence and to protect the church from liability. No. It was initiated because there have been incidents, aaaand, the subsequent need to practice due diligence and protect the church from liability. The difference being that the church volunteers don't have to pay to be members. Hey USAA... how about complimentary temp./rec. membership? Kinda like the gym giving you free passes before making a commitment?!

The SafeSport initiative is a good idea, imho, and, unfortunately, a necessary evil. Many of us are naive about what some people are capable of, whether it's as an abuser or claiming abuse. We have to put the safety of our students as a top priority. That is drummed into us at the very basic level as a USAA rep. Archery is one of the safest sports because efforts have been made to keep it that way. We should do the same with the reputation of archery and it's recognized coaches and programs. 

*If* Todd Hoffner had some kind of awareness training, he may not have glibly handed over his Blackberry to the IT department. He may have considered the potential for misconstrued allegations and removed his home video from his cell phone first. It goes both ways. 

Yes, there will be changes and ramifications, even financial impacts. It would be hard for it not to. It has been made quite clear that this is an evolving development, and the official responses to the questions being asked tells me that they are listening. 

If those making the decisions are not aware of how this will impact the grass root programs, the chances are they just need to have that feedback, and some brainstorming needs to ensue. 

For example: my summer workshops on a Saturday morning for the newbies would require the recreational membership for each attendee. They're already being charged $25/e so the additional $15/e would make it $40. That's not acceptable, so I would propose USAA get together with a.n.other foundation to make a sponsorship or grant program that clubs can apply for to cover the rec. fees. (Or just make it complimentary!)

What about the JOAD students having to be USAA members to earn any pins? I don't mind that at all. As John mentioned, many have no earthly idea about USAA and what they are to archery. Quite honestly, I'm pretty clueless too. But I do know that structure provides exactly that... structure. And what comes with structure? Politics, bureaucracy, bloating, greed for power, money etc. It's the nature of the beast. However, I like to have clear guidelines, direction, support and no gray areas. 

You folks who have many years in this arena have far more knowledge and understanding of how it works, but some things are the same wherever you go. Even the church has well paid employees and overworked volunteers. People volunteer out of passion and are sometimes more valuable than paid workers. 

So, should I still conduct the level I cert class in August? I don't know. Hopefully I'll get my level III in early August, so I could potentially do a level II class instead, but that's a scary thought. Either way, I will be getting background checks done on my volunteers, and asking them to complete the SafeSport online course. The city has the liability aspect covered too.

I will be watching this very closely, and will speak up if I'm inclined.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Great post. You're a credit to our sport. We will all be watching carefully, and I suspect the annual meeting in Ohio will be very interesting to attend, indeed.

There is no minimum # of year's experience to offer comments. I just want to point that out. And sometimes, those who are new to USArchery have the best, and most unbiased perspective to offer. 

I would encourage you to question, challenge, and help us all improve this organization, and the sport we love.


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## hdracer (Aug 8, 2007)

Does anyone know what type of background check will be required? There are several different types if I remember correctly. The quick one done to purchase a firearm, concealed carry types, the ones I had to do for my military security clearance (pages and pages of info to be completed) and others. There are state background and federal backgrounds checks. Has US Archery determined what level we will need? How do other organizations handle this type of request.

Who will maintain the background check documents? US Archery? The JOAD club you are affiliated with? In all the ones I have had I have never received any type of paperwork back, just a pass/fail word of mouth report (never had a fail  ).

Will this also apply to all adult shooters within a club that have "frequent access" to the younger shooters?

Just curious since we are headed that way...


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## Jim C (Oct 15, 2002)

hdracer said:


> Does anyone know what type of background check will be required? There are several different types if I remember correctly. The quick one done to purchase a firearm, concealed carry types, the ones I had to do for my military security clearance (pages and pages of info to be completed) and others. There are state background and federal backgrounds checks. Has US Archery determined what level we will need? How do other organizations handle this type of request.
> 
> Who will maintain the background check documents? US Archery? The JOAD club you are affiliated with? In all the ones I have had I have never received any type of paperwork back, just a pass/fail word of mouth report (never had a fail  ).
> 
> ...


when Liz and I renewed our Level III we had to pay something south of 20 bucks for some company to do it. It was nothing like the every 5 year investigation I undergo at my job. Its about the same level as a CCW renewal or a firearms purchase check


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Jim C said:


> when Liz and I renewed our Level III we had to pay something south of 20 bucks for some company to do it. It was nothing like the every 5 year investigation I undergo at my job. Its about the same level as a CCW renewal or a firearms purchase check


+1 .


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## dchan (Jun 29, 2004)

hdracer said:


> Does anyone know what type of background check?
> 
> Who will maintain the background check documents? US Archery? The JOAD club you are affiliated


Security checks are done through SSCI www.scci2000.com

SCCI maintains records and transmits info to USA Archery for their data base. Anyone that is a USAA member can request a backround check online and pay the 17.00 to have it run. It will then appear on your membership record.

According to the SCCI website you can have copies of your own background checks sent to other organizarions that may also use the same service.

SF Sec and Park requires all volunteers and staff in their programs that have contact with youth go through a Livescan background check which includes fingerprinting.


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## Jim C (Oct 15, 2002)

dchan said:


> Security checks are done through SSCI www.scci2000.com
> 
> SCCI maintains records and transmits info to USA Archery for their data base. Anyone that is a USAA member can request a backround check online and pay the 17.00 to have it run. It will then appear on your membership record.
> 
> ...


I would think you could get a copy of a 4473 through your local gunshop with a PROCEED code on it and that would be good enough-of course USA would not get a cut from that operation


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## dchan (Jun 29, 2004)

From what I can see, 4473 does not include a social security verification or SOR (sexual offenders registry) check. It also uses the NICS for it's criminal records search where the SSCI includes state and local criminal checks as well.

and sorry, My last post should have said "background" not "security" check. and I think the price went up since I had mine done.. It's still less than 20.00 however.

DC


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## Mulcade (Aug 31, 2007)

USAA requires that the background checks be done through SCCI and I believe it's part of the agreement USAA has with SCCI. At least that was the case about a year ago when I taught a lvl 2 class to several people who already had undergone more extensive background checks.


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## dchan (Jun 29, 2004)

My apology.

Part of my previous posting had a major typo..

SSCI is the organization, Not SCCI


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## Jim C (Oct 15, 2002)

dchan said:


> From what I can see, 4473 does not include a social security verification or SOR (sexual offenders registry) check. It also uses the NICS for it's criminal records search where the SSCI includes state and local criminal checks as well.
> 
> and sorry, My last post should have said "background" not "security" check. and I think the price went up since I had mine done.. It's still less than 20.00 however.
> 
> DC


state and local criminal records are part of NICS

if not only those with federal felonies would be caught

not those with DV misdemeanors, indictments, etc


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## Jim C (Oct 15, 2002)

Mulcade said:


> USAA requires that the background checks be done through SCCI and I believe it's part of the agreement USAA has with SCCI. At least that was the case about a year ago when I taught a lvl 2 class to several people who already had undergone more extensive background checks.


I was told the extensive federal security level check I go through was not sufficient

I suspect its because the USA didn't get a fee:mg:


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Jim C said:


> I was told the extensive federal security level check I go through was not sufficient
> 
> I suspect its because the USA didn't get a fee:mg:


I was told the same if it makes you feel any better Jim.


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