# Manufacturer backs Pro Shop Only Archery Shops



## michihunter (Mar 2, 2003)

Richard- Is this gonna be true for all HCA models?


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## deck shooter (Jul 22, 2007)

wow
you must have got a lot of dealer back sense 2005
to be able to do this
my closest dealer is 3.5 hrs away
guess i will be getting a HCA bow cheap this year from a non HCA dealer

you starting on a good road now I am 
good luck 

internet & mail order are the wave of the times
you may have to get use to it


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## iron mace07 (Jun 1, 2007)

*Now thats what I'm Talking about*

I agree 100% The Dealers are the back bone, and we need to keep folks shopping in the Pro Shops.Buying a Bow from a Dealer means this........
You get a Tech thats is Knowlegdeable on what he sells, he also knows how to fit a person into a bow. He is there to service that bow when and if something needs worked on.Its very good to knwo that when a person enters a bow shop, that he will have a bow that will be right for you, no more waiting or shipping bow back to get it fixed , no more buying a bow, with the worry if it got damaged in shipping .Dealers take better care of there poeple, thats a no brainer.I think , HCA archery is stepping up to the plate , now maybe others will follow suit and do the same, so many bow Manuf. have gotten away form the pro shops, because of the mighty dollar and greed.Lets get all bows back into dealers, and stop the price gauging bows.

high five once again to HCA


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## viperarcher (Jul 6, 2007)

iron mace07 said:


> I agree 100% The Dealers are the back bone, and we need to keep folks shopping in the Pro Shops.Buying a Bow from a Dealer means this........
> You get a Tech thats is Knowlegdeable on what he sells, he also knows how to fit a person into a bow. He is there to service that bow when and if something needs worked on.Its very good to knwo that when a person enters a bow shop, that he will have a bow that will be right for you, no more waiting or shipping bow back to get it fixed , no more buying a bow, with the worry if it got damaged in shipping .Dealers take better care of there poeple, thats a no brainer.I think , HCA archery is stepping up to the plate , now maybe others will follow suit and do the same, so many bow Manuf. have gotten away form the pro shops, because of the mighty dollar and greed.Lets get all bows back into dealers, and stop the price gauging bows.
> 
> high five once again to HCA


well Lets get the bow Manufactures to Lower there pricing so the average bowhunter can afford there products! Bows are getting way out of price and the thing is there really not changing that much, cosmetics don't make a great bow its smart design, and engineering that does!


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## iron mace07 (Jun 1, 2007)

*well in the manufactors defense*

tell that to all the car manufacotrs about the cost and why they raise prices on cars.Id be willign to bnet you didnt mind buuying a 20, 000.00 plus truck, did you. its the way the times are, id have to say price has nothgin to do with it, if you want it you have to pay for what ya get. Its not just in archery that prices have gone up look around.Merry xmas to all


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## WNYBowhunter (Jan 15, 2006)

If only the HCA website would tell us where those HCA dealers are....


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## USNarcher (Oct 12, 2002)

Richard, not to rain on anything here......but. Unless this only applies to 08 bows one of your "Dealers" came over to my house last night for me to show him how to work on High Country bows. He does internet sales. I'm not bashing HC or him.......but.......it doesn't seem as though this is the case. There is a store front shop 32 miles away that doesn't think much of it either. If this is for the 08's then it's a great start.


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## ats (Jul 20, 2007)

iron mace07 said:


> Buying a Bow from a Dealer means this........
> You get a Tech thats is Knowlegdeable on what he sells, he also knows how to fit a person into a bow. He is there to service that bow when and if something needs worked on.Its very good to knwo that when a person enters a bow shop, that he will have a bow that will be right for you,




Show me one such dealer, and I'll show you ten that don't even know how to properly match arrows to a customers bow, or even care to for that matter. Or that charge a premium to "tune" a bow when all they do is get it close to specs and eyeball center shot. I could go on and on, but I will just stop there and apologize for hijacking the thread :wink:


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## Bert2 (Feb 16, 2003)

I think HCA is on the right track with this and has the right goals in mind.

It will take a while to get there -- yes, there are some good shops and some bad shops. They may have to cull through some of the bad ones to get to the good ones.

A nice store front does not necessarilly mean a good pro shop -- the best shop I know is in a guy's basement, he handles it part time and works a regular job too, but he's "open" when real people need him (nights and weekends), he is a trained NFAA instructor (by Bernie), he has all the good tools, and he does a great job of setting bows up right, makes high quality string sets, etc.

And YES, he is an official HCA dealer!

Just one suggestion Richard -- you need to be able to help the folks who have no dealer near them, or have a lousy dealer that they are sick of dealing with.


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## iron mace07 (Jun 1, 2007)

*Usn.............*

.you can find bad in everyhtign if you look that hard, and it seems you lookign pretty hard to me. Im just a outsider lookign in at your post, but you seem to wanna bash HCA just a little bit. thats fine , one can find bad people if they look hard too. there are bad cars in lexus too , ever heard of lemons, there ya go. Merry Xmas


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## Wyvern Creations (Sep 20, 2006)

Being an archery dealer myself, and working out of my basement as well, I personaly think the idea is good, but so limiting as to be counter productive. As already been stated, what if there is no dealer near you , or the dealer is an idiot, or you cant find one easily(as in no link on their website)? If a customer wants a HC bow, and cant get one localy easily, then mail order/ internet is his best option. I personaly sell most of my product mailorder/internet/Ebay. I also follow MAP guidelines. That cannot be said of many of my internet competitors. I have no issue with online sales, but if a company is going to set a MAP policy, then they have to police it and come down hard on any dealer not following it. The day of the local store (sadly) is slowly going away in favor of the internet and that major limit in my ability to market and sell this particular line would cause me to not consider bringing it in no matter how good it is. If I can only market to the people within a 50 mile radius, then have to compete with all the other brands out there, then this policy would not work for me. Some other stores I am sure would love it, but with the sheer number of shops opening websites and Ebay stores, HC will either have to allow internet or see their market share drop.

Wyvern


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## 3dbowmaster (Sep 16, 2005)

Wow this is funny......

Its danged if you do, danged if you don't:wink:

You just can't please anyone these days. But I think you probably pleased the majority with this Richard....

I like the program personnally, but theres just really not any good "Pro" shops around here anymore....


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## archer1914 (Oct 13, 2007)

Bert2 said:


> I think HCA is on the right track with this and has the right goals in mind.
> 
> It will take a while to get there -- yes, there are some good shops and some bad shops. They may have to cull through some of the bad ones to get to the good ones.
> 
> ...


I agree with the last part of this. I have a local dealer and he sucks he wont carry them in stock. I have just got a call back from hca (and thank you for that) to find a another dealer. The other dealers are 2 hours away and I don't know what they are like. I already drove to the one that was an hour away and was not able to shoot it. He was not set up for shooting just selling.The website needs some serious work. How can it be benificial to pay people to answer the phone and do all the call backs about dealers when a website is faster and easier to get other things done so it would help with customer service as well. I am not crying just offering some ideas i like hca have been shooting the same one for 12 years now. I have had no problems with it never went out of time just had to replace the strings. I really want the new 08 line to be my new bow. I am finally because of the mace thinking of getting a new one. I have shot new bows every year and have not been impressed so I have stayed with my excalibur and I have turned heads with how quiet it is. But 415 fps has to be tried and I hope I am impressed.


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## archer1914 (Oct 13, 2007)

*reps*

just remembered when I talked to hca they have no reps for there company even if its just 2 or 3 to go check out bow shop complaints you need to have them. How can you be a dealer and not carry there bows (Outdoor Specials in Winfield West Virginia) They need to stock or find sombody else to represent you it would be in your best interest richard to have them stand up or get out of the way for hca


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## Wyvern Creations (Sep 20, 2006)

The issue with supporting "pro shops only".over and above the restriction to selling outside of a very small radius, is that the definition of a "pro shop" is a vague thing. Is the guy in his basement that has all the equipment, can tune a bow to the nines, is a great guy to deal with and can service the customer(not just the bow) less of a "pro shop" than the guy that has a store front who is a pain to deal with, treats people like crap and could not adjust centershot to save his life??? The perception that a "pro-shop" is a large retail facility is a bit missleading now a days. I know from customer feedback that I provide better customer service thru the phone and the mail to my customers than they recieve from their local shop(again, I am a basement shop). Does that say alot about me, or very little about that local shop?? If HC is doing all this to support their pro shop dealer network I agree with Archer1914 that unless they make sure that the dealer they sign on is worth going to then this whole program is a waste of time. Those "authorized dealers" are the front line representatives of HC and if all HC cares is that they order a bunch of bows every year then personaly I think they may be loosing more sales than they know( I do not know if this is the case, this is just speculation). Several posters have noted that they are either hours away from a dealer(read LOTS of gas money) or the dealer they have around them is an idiot. Hmmm....what is the criteria for being a dealer/representative for your line??? Also, many of those people who may want an HC bow may have gone to another brand simply because they were not about to drive for hours when that other brand was either down the road at another shop or a mouse click away. I have also noted that with the price of presses and tools going down many archers have chosen to tune their own bows. A good chunk of that entire customer base is cut off because many "pro shops" do not want to help the do it yourselfer because of the money the feel they loose, and many of those archers buy online. I seriously think the limits on online marketing and the apparent lack of some form of certification of their dealers is an issue....the MAP thing is great though and I highly support that...

Wyvern


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## RecordKeeper (May 9, 2003)

Kudos to you Richard!

:thumb:


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## switchback33 (Nov 9, 2007)

Maybe a dumb question but here I go. If Im a dealer and I buy lets say10 bows from HCA for $600. They say I have to sell them for $700(MAP). Once I paid for these bows why cant I do as I see fit. Why cant I sell these for $650 if I choose? Their mine arent they? Im not trying to start anything I just dont understand the whole concept of MAP. If ive paid for them I should be able to sell them for what I choose its my profit right? A couple of Mathews dealers went through this a couple of years ago around here.Am I just missing something?


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## big_jed2003 (Apr 5, 2004)

glad to hca doing this !!!!!!!!!!!!!!11


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## Wyvern Creations (Sep 20, 2006)

Everything that gets bought by someone to be resold to someone else has to have some value above its cost otherwize no profit can be made and that dealer(and all the associated business with it) goes out of business. If one dealer says "if I sell "X" for $1.00 over my cost and sell a million of them I will make a million dollars!" and does that it makes it impossible for any business that does not do a HUGE volume to be price competitive. Eventually, all the small dealers, tired of making no money on that item, stop selling it since it is not worth their time investing in inventory and advertizing just to hear "I can get it less elsewhere". That item now has no "value" to the dealer network. Eventually the manufacturer looses enough distribution that they end up with one or two dealers being their only customers. These dealers now essentialy control that manufacture and will dictate exactly what their terms are going to be. Trust me....I know what I am talking about here. As a dealer, I look at a product not only from the standpoint that it may be popular, and high quality, but what can I make for profit on it and still be competitive. If I cant make a living off selling something I will not waste my time promoting or inventorying it. MAP pricing (again, properly policed and enforced by the manufacturers) assures me that I can make a fair profit on a product. Now this also means that no matter where you go it will be the same price. So, how does the customer determine where they will spend their money??? By what service, or extras are included in the purchase. If a bow costs you the same from Cabelas, Ebay, or the local dealer, you may go to Cabelas because of free shipping, Ebay because the seller threw in a set of broadheads, or the local dealer because he will set it up and tune it for you for free and give you an hours free range time. All 3 dealers held MAP pricing but added value to the purchase and in their own way competed with eachother. It is a win win situation. The maufacuter keeps value in their product, the dealer makes a living, and the customer (if he shops around a bit) makes out very well with additional product or services that bring up the value of the bow. I have one line of crossbows that is out of control as far as no value and I have pretty well given up on them as far as being an option for me to sell. If I have the choice of selling a $500.00 bow and making $10.00 or another $500.00 bow and making $75.00 which do you think I will have in my shop??? Profit is not a dirty word provided it is FAIR profit, and that is what MAP is. It is not outragous, we are not buying bows for $75.00 and selling them for $600.00, we are making a decent margin that will allow us to pay our bills, feed our families, and maybe have enough left over to buy the product or service at the place that our customers work so they keep their jobs too... There are bows and accessories in every price range. People need to stop whining that they want a $1000.00 bow but want it at a $400.00 price. You are not going to buy a Corvette for the price of a Corsica...and if you could, it would be a POS.

Wyvern


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## Bob_Looney (Nov 17, 2003)

support the pro shops and they'll support you. Problem is, most mfg repackage their bows and sell the the mass merchants.

I would suggest doing like release and scope mgf do, no dealer, we'll sell to you direct but at retail price.
I would also suggest you don't jack up a customer over a $2.00 module screw. That was totally *****inine on HCA's part. Stick it to a piece of cardboard and drop it in the mail.

good luck, hope it works out.


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## USNarcher (Oct 12, 2002)

iron mace07 said:


> .you can find bad in everyhtign if you look that hard, and it seems you lookign pretty hard to me. Im just a outsider lookign in at your post, but you seem to wanna bash HCA just a little bit. thats fine , one can find bad people if they look hard too. there are bad cars in lexus too , ever heard of lemons, there ya go. Merry Xmas



iron mace....I am not bashing anyone nor am I looking for anything. Richard and I have talked extensively in the past. I like what HC has done this year. But what they need to know is that the promotion is not working as advertized. I don't mind helping anyone out.....but if you tell me that you are a dealer of anything and you don't know how to change out modules on what you are dealing then there is something missing. I am just a guy that enjoys this sport and enjoy helping everyone. HC doesn't need my help nor do they particularly need my input. 

When you make a statement there will always be someone to tear it down. I wasn't doing that. I was saying that if the statement was true then it must refer to the 08 season. Trust me there are plenty of people out there with a HC sourness. I am not one of them. If someone asks me about HC I will definately steer them in the right direction.


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## iron mace07 (Jun 1, 2007)

*usn*

my apologies, maybe i misread what ya said, if so please accpet my aplogies, wasnt meanign anythgin in a bad way , just stateing there is bad in everythign, just as there are bad techs in Pro shops, with t he wrong attitude, HCA, nor any of the other manfactors cant police every shop every day, Im sure what they can do is listen to complaints about those jobs and make changes. changing modules on a HCA bow isnt that hard , I mean no press needed, I would think a 10 year old could do that.
I mean HCA bows even come with adjustment spec sheet when ya get the bow.I think Richard and HCA are gogn in the right direction, will just take time to put HCA in the right Pro Shops.Time will surely tell . have a great day, and merry xmas


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## mdewitt71 (Jul 20, 2005)

So what does this mean for someone that has no local dealer or that spends more time in foriegn lands than the homefront and might want to buy one?????

I agree it is a " Win some/ Lose some" situation......
Hope it works out for you Richard. :darkbeer:


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## Buellhunter (Sep 2, 2006)

Almost all Top Tier bow companies have this policy.
Good for HCA!


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## michihunter (Mar 2, 2003)

I think the idea has merit but just like anything that's all or nothing, I think the "nothings" are gonna hurt sales in the end. The closest shop here in the Detroit area is 45 miles away. That's FAR when you consider the area and all the shops within 20 miles of downtown Detroit. Now take the same scenario in an area that has even less shops nearby than Detroit and you have just lost out on quite a few potential sales due to an unwillingness to compromise. 

What I would suggest is that all sales MUST be done at a Pro shop if you are within "x" amount of miles from one. If you are further than that distance away, then you should be able to order directly from the factory just like other manufacturers allow. I would use a 50 mile radius. That way you not only keep the dealer happy for those in their personal territory, but you also allow for people that are interested in your offering a chance to buy a bow still without mandating that they travel 100 miles to get one. That's just a "no brainer" to me.

Richard- Do you allow for territorial overlap amongst your dealers?? Is there a minimum distance between dealers?


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## amarchery (Nov 28, 2007)

*Way To Go!*



deck shooter said:


> wow
> you must have got a lot of dealer back sense 2005
> to be able to do this
> my closest dealer is 3.5 hrs away
> ...


We are just getting set up to be a dealer with HCA and are really looking forward to the system and products.

I can tell you from a shop owners point of view. With our BowTech line it is great. With our Diamond line, it SUCKS having that fine line of bows *****d out to Big Box stores. Very unprofessional and I hope some day it will end. I cant disagree more with the "wave of the future" mentality.

For HCA to go straight Pro Shop is a winner all the way around. And if you think of the bow companies that have made this decision, one in mind that starts with an "M", I believe you will agree it works. In conjunciton with a marketing effort the Pro Shop sales is the way to go. 

Thanks to HCA for seeing the market for what it is and should remain. A professional hands on sales and assistance business.

MJ


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## Wyvern Creations (Sep 20, 2006)

"With our Diamond line, it SUCKS having that fine line of bows *****d out to Big Box stores. Very unprofessional and I hope some day it will end. I cant disagree more with the "wave of the future" mentality."

Well, the "wave of the future" is here and is not going away. I have no issue with internet sales and do the majority of my business that way. Any proshop that cannot compete with it may want to take a better look at why their customer is going online rather than buying from them. Sorry, but that is the truth....I have dealt with internet and mailorder competitors since the mid 80's and you can beat them if you know how, but it takes more than lowering your prices and giving an attitude to the guy that brings in a bow to be set up that he bought online just makes him never come back to you. 

Diamond was set up so Bowtech could be sold online without hurting "Bowtech" dealers (which are not supposed to be sold online Same as Reflex is to Hoyt)....HOWEVER: punch in any bowtech or Diamond product (Diamond, by the way, in the contract states VERY clearly NO EBAY SALES!!) on Ebay and you will find anything you could want for sale from "Ebay archery stores" with huge numbers. These dealers are breaking their contracts (blatantly I may add) and are getting away with it due to the lack of policing and enforcement of policies by the manufacturer. Many of these "ebay dealers" are legitimate Bowtech dealers that on one hand are complaining about internet sales and on the other have an Ebay account under a diferant name from their home address so they can go under the radar. 

Having a manufacturer throw out a blanket "No internet, No ebay, No mailorder" policy looks great on the surface for a pro shop that only sees his business ending at his doorstep, but is a load of nothing if it is not enforced. SOOOO....I have not seen another reply from High Country on this thread yet...what is your policing system, and what is your policy on dealers that break the agreement???? is it a slap on the wrist, or is it "you are caught the first time and we are sending call tags to pick up your inventory and we will issue a refund for your product and as of now you are no longer a dealer" ?????

Also: There is a brand new HC Iron Mace on Ebay as we speak...so again, is there really a support program, or is this smoke and mirrors to make a pro shop feel "cozy" that the manufacurer is supporting them??? Sorry if I sound insulting, but I deal with this every day and several manufacurers are a bit tired of me whistle blowing every week, but if they will not police their policies then I will because if I signed a contract and go by that policy every one else had better....

Wyvern


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## USNarcher (Oct 12, 2002)

iron mace07 said:


> my apologies, maybe i misread what ya said, if so please accpet my aplogies, wasnt meanign anythgin in a bad way , just stateing there is bad in everythign, just as there are bad techs in Pro shops, with t he wrong attitude, HCA, nor any of the other manfactors cant police every shop every day, Im sure what they can do is listen to complaints about those jobs and make changes. changing modules on a HCA bow isnt that hard , I mean no press needed, I would think a 10 year old could do that.
> I mean HCA bows even come with adjustment spec sheet when ya get the bow.I think Richard and HCA are gogn in the right direction, will just take time to put HCA in the right Pro Shops.Time will surely tell . have a great day, and merry xmas



No need for appologies. Thanks anyway. HCA has been around a long time through ups and downs. There are things that have to be done to get your product out. I remember when Bowtech started there were garage shops everywhere. Most of these guys were average shooters that love the sport and asked to be a dealer and they were awarded it. 

Shop owners are the backbone of the industry. However, the way things are today everyone want/needs to be as thrifty as possible. Things are not cheap. I hate working in the shop when a guy comes in with an "antique" and wants all the high tech stuff put on it. Or the guy that calls me at 8pm the night before hunting season and says that brown just dropped off all the stuff he ordered on the internet and needs it set up so he can go hunting in the morning.

I don't have a problem with a company selling direct to a person that would have to drive 3 hours to purchace a bow. But to let someone open up an "authorized" dealership when they have no clue about the product or the equipment to work on it, that is when I have a little heartburn. To the companies defence it is practically impossible to police. In the long run it is only hurting the company. The consumer will eventually get what they paid for.

Richard, sorry for hijacking your post. Good luck and I really hope that the new tactics work out for everyone. I will definately help out my local HCA dealer/s .


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## fastpassthrough (Jan 25, 2003)

Wyvern Crossbow said:


> "With our Diamond line, it SUCKS having that fine line of bows *****d out to Big Box stores. Very unprofessional and I hope some day it will end. I cant disagree more with the "wave of the future" mentality."
> 
> Well, the "wave of the future" is here and is not going away. I have no issue with internet sales and do the majority of my business that way. Any proshop that cannot compete with it may want to take a better look at why their customer is going online rather than buying from them. Sorry, but that is the truth....I have dealt with internet and mailorder competitors since the mid 80's and you can beat them if you know how, but it takes more than lowering your prices and giving an attitude to the guy that brings in a bow to be set up that he bought online just makes him never come back to you.
> 
> ...


Here is a example of the enforcement's, we have just let a sales agent go in house because he refereed an individual to shop out of his area


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## Wyvern Creations (Sep 20, 2006)

So your policy is also territorial??? What if the individual does not like the shop you refered him to??? It would seem that giving a range of available dealers to choose from would be a more workable idea than forcing someone to go to a dealer they dont like. I have a Tenpoint dealer down the road from me that is an idiot (well, as far as crossbows are concerned). The customer of theirs that I just handled an issue with was rippin at them. If he was forced to go back there by the manufacturer then it would not have been pretty. Maybe I am missreading this, could you clarify? Also, letting an inside salesman go does not anser my question of dealer contract breakage....
Thanks
Wyvern

P.S. sorry to be a pain with this and I am not trying to bash your policy that is obviously designed to protect Proshops, but I deal with policies that have lots of bark and no teeth all the time in this(and other) industry and I was actually recomended to take a look at your product by another manufacturer, so since this all came up and the ATA show is in a few weeks...


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## Buellhunter (Sep 2, 2006)

Totally agree with Wyvern
The policy means nothing if the manufacturer does not enforce it and dealers are willing to break their word.

I could've sold 4 DXTs yesterday if I would break the rules. Could I use those sales? You bet! Am I going to break my word to Mathews and risk loosing the Mathews line? NO WAY!

Sure would be great if ALL dealers would honor their agreements. I know that will never happen.


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## michihunter (Mar 2, 2003)

Even Bowtech has a Boonies program. Same with Martin and several others. I personally wouldn't drive more than 50 miles for sales and/or service for ANY bow. Unless of course they were giving them away.:wink:


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## reylamb (Feb 5, 2003)

No selling below MAP? Is that even legal?


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## Wyvern Creations (Sep 20, 2006)

Yes...the Supreme Court aproved that and several other laws that allow a manufacture to dictate what their product is to be sold for. Basicly, if you want to sell brand "X" bows (or whatever) then you sign a contract stating that you agree to not sell below a certain point or you will loose your ability to sell that brand. It is not restriction of trade or price fixing, it simply gives the manufacturer the ability to hold value with their product (see my post above) and gain dealer support for that product by making sure that anyone who signs that contract is gaurenteed a decent profit margin. 

Wyvern


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## rrcherry (Mar 20, 2007)

*Heard this before...*

I think this is a great move for High Country, as long as they ACTUALLY enforce it!

High Country needs to build a lot of trust with both old dealers and customers.

So, lets see if High Country really enforces their promise this time. Main Questions...

Will High Country be selling DIRECTLY to consumers again at the Harrisburg Sports Show?

Will High Country be uncutting "pro-shops" at the show?

Will High Country be selling more used, returned, and blemished bows to customers, and not tell them they are such?

I attended the show last year, and almost bought one... then I talked to 4 of the major archery pro shops at the show, and none of them were dealers. None of them had much to say about High Country, and all of them seemed to support what I suspected... it appeared they were selling bows way too cheap. Reason being... they were used, blemished, etc. yet, no one at High Country wanted to beleive this.

Now, this is just what I saw at the Harrisburg show, and is just the feedback I got from the pro-shops at that show, but needless to say this left me with some major distrust for High Country. The pro-shops at the exact show High Country was at, seemed to feel the same way, at least the 4 I talked with. Their may have been two pro shops at that show that I did not talk with, maybe they felt differently? Maybe they felt the same?


Regardless, High Country really sticks to their guns on this, and finds some "decent" pro-shops. It would be a step in the right direction. I am a bit sinical.


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## amarchery (Nov 28, 2007)

*Diamond*

Wyvern

Originally the Diamond bow line was purchased by BowTech to do just that, have a different method of distribution. It was a lower end line of bows, less expensive than BowTech bows. Now it is not.

Diamonds are priced right there with BowTech. And that is due to innovation to that line of single cam bows. Hence the price similarity to BowTech. Too much $ to spend to get a bow through the mail, in my honest opinion.

We DO take care of folks that bring in a bow from another source. A customer brought in a 2 month old Liberty last night and we tuned it up for him. The other dealer did nothing for him. He never shot it there. Didn't even give him the owners manual or warranty card or offer to register on the web. We will sell him his next one, and othe products.

But to say "You cant enforce it" or it is "Booner" type of mentality is ridiculous. What should a manufacturer do just sell to everyone and maybe sell direct from their manufacturing facility to the customers? Do you really think so? If I was a manufacturer building the bows and had the tech support right there, if you are going to allow mail order and internet sales then just do it direct to the customer. Loads more margin.

There is a system of distribution that has proven over time to work the best, for the long term business plan. And that is direct in person one on one sales and support. But it has to be taken care of from the manufacturer to the end consumer. And if the manufacturer has poor support to the dealer or the dealer has poor support to the consumer it will fail no matter how well the intentions were laid out. And dealer TECH SUPPORT from the manufacturer is a biggy for me. 

1. check for correct draw length
2. Adjust positioning of peep
3. Tie in the peep after shooting 25-30 times, fix twist etc
4. Show correct hand position and on and on
5. paper-tune after a few shots, check spine, etc etc

Just a few you will not be able to do by selling mail order.


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## Deer30 (Oct 19, 2006)

Well High Country just lost a very knowledgeable and customer driven guy in me. I love archery and can set anyone up. Basically what was done last year was use people signing them up to be a dealer no matter where they were, car, trailer, garage or house, giving them bows at certain prices and bam the next year pull the rug out from under them. Richard I hope everything goes well for you, but I can not afford to give up my profession for archery. I am not aware of any dealer in Ohio other than me. Mt Orab I think has one. I would treat people right and would set them up as any "pro shop" can or would. I take one guy at a time and give him personal attention not just get the dollar in the register. There are truly good guys that can do this from their home garage ect... I don't see this doing anything but hurting sells for HCA.Of course the guys who own store front pro-shops are going to say this is great. I didn't see one HCA dealer that owns a pro-shop jump in and send the guy in Flordia a draw stop. I went to my little shop in the garage and got him one, not a store front. Customer Service is what makes a company grow not limiting who can sell a bow. I hope the chosen store front guys can help.


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## 3dbowmaster (Sep 16, 2005)

Deer30 said:


> Well High Country just lost a very knowledgeable and customer driven guy in me. I love archery and can set anyone up. Basically what was done last year was use people signing them up to be a dealer no matter where they were, car, trailer, garage or house, giving them bows at certain prices and bam the next year pull the rug out from under them. Richard I hope everything goes well for you, but I can not afford to give up my profession for archery. I am not aware of any dealer in Ohio other than me. Mt Orab I think has one. I would treat people right and would set them up as any "pro shop" can or would. I take one guy at a time and give him personal attention not just get the dollar in the register. There are truly good guys that can do this from their home garage ect... I don't see this doing anything but hurting sells for HCA.Of course the guys who own store front pro-shops are going to say this is great. I didn't see one HCA dealer that owns a pro-shop jump in and send the guy in Flordia a draw stop. I went to my little shop in the garage and got him one, not a store front. Customer Service is what makes a company grow not limiting who can sell a bow. I hope the chosen store front guys can help.


I hate that for you
The best shops that I've ever been to have either been in a basement/garage or maybe even a tiny little building beside there house.......
But in your case, it doesn't matter what bows you can or can't sell.... Your customer service will keep you in business with any other bow brand.
Good luck


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## Wyvern Creations (Sep 20, 2006)

"We DO take care of folks that bring in a bow from another source"

Excellent!! Just what a "pro shop" should do 

"What should a manufacturer do just sell to everyone and maybe sell direct from their manufacturing facility to the customers? Do you really think so? If I was a manufacturer building the bows and had the tech support right there, if you are going to allow mail order and internet sales then just do it direct to the customer. Loads more margin."

Selling direct to thousands of individuals rather than hundreds of dealers makes for ALOT more work. Not that manufacturers dont do this ( I can give you the names of some big players in another industry I am in that have their own Ebay stores...) I have never understood direct to consumer sales. Explain to me why my supplier is also my competitor???? I never said doing this was a good idea, but if they are going to tie their dealers hands and not allow sales in remote areas then HC needs to address this.

"There is a system of distribution that has proven over time to work the best, for the long term business plan. And that is direct in person one on one sales and support."

Yes...it USED to be that way. The internet has completely changed that....People who 3 years ago that did not know how to turn a computer on are now having stuff delivered that they bought online. All I am saying is that business changes every day. The only way to survive is to change as well. You are correct. The service you get in person cannot be done online, and that is a brick and morters strength. But to deny that the internet is a very big and fast growing method of business is nothing more than sticking your head in the sand and pretending it is not happening. You can complain all you want....but it is just going to get bigger. Adapt or perish...that is business....any business.

"The best shops that I've ever been to have either been in a basement/garage or maybe even a tiny little building beside there house......."

Back to my original question...what make a "pro shop" a "PRO" shop?? What is HC's requirements??? If they are only looking for a retail store front, then they could be approving idiots. Just last night I had to repair a bow for a customer that bought the bow at a VERY large local retail store and the morons there could not figure out what was wrong with it and gave him the "drop it off and we will send it back to the manufacturer. You should see it in a few weeks or so" line. Season ends tomorrow and he was standing over an 8pt. He is in the woods now, happy and serviced. Does that mean I am a "pro shop"??? If so, then that little room in my basement with no sign out front and a spare bedroom as a office works pretty well. I sat on the phone with a customer two days ago walking him thru a crossbow assembly. Step by step right up till he was shooting and walked him thru sighting in the bow. Again...does that make me a "pro shop"??

Deer30...sorry to hear that you lost your dealership. 

Wyvern

P.S. Yes, I very much expect any manufacturer that sets MAP pricing to police and enforce it.


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## dillio67 (Oct 1, 2004)

*Sorry not feeling it*

As a pro shop owner and knowing other owners who sold HCA a long time and a lot of them are not really all that enthusiastic about embracing HCA again....especially with all the new bows out today and lines they have picked up since .....


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## uobobdun (Mar 11, 2005)

WNYBowhunter said:


> If only the HCA website would tell us where those HCA dealers are....


:clap:


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## sludge (Jun 19, 2004)

Richard,

Wish you the best with HCA. But as mentioned before, I hope you consider something like Bowtech's "In the Boonies" program. I currently have both a Newberry B1 and a HCA Iron Mace hanging from my ceiling and enjoy shooting both. I understand what you are doing here as who can argue with the success of companies like Mathew's and Hoyt. However, it is very disappointing to people like myself who probably now won't own a new HCA bow again.
I live at least 100 miles from ANY proshop. Because of this, I have become self sufficient and do all the work on my bows. Internet sales, mail-order sales, what ever you want to call them, have become my main means of purchasing archery equipment. Having a bow company that will provide a means of selling and potentially performing warranty work without the hassle and expense of having to drive these types of distances is invaluable.
I know this is a hot topic on Archery Talk and you get very passionate opinions, but surely there is a logical and reasonable way that you can support both Proshop and limited non-proshop sales while providing direct warranty service and still be loyal to BOTH proshops and your PAST CUSTOMERS.
Why is this such a hard thing? Surely there is a way to allow sales from authorized dealers while providing direct warranty work. I could come up with multiple ideas myself for consideration.
Contrary to some people's opinion, not everyone out here that purchases as I do is just "looking for the best deal". There are many that just want to be able to have the opportunity to shoot a bow without the hassle that the current system imposes on us because of where we live.

Thanks for reading,

Mike


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## Mrwintr (Jan 15, 2006)

I need to chime in here too.
_First_, does this mean that even if we have no dealers within 100-200+ miles from us, we can not buy from the factory anymore or buy them from dealers on the internet? And if the answer to this is "no you can't buy from factory or on the internet anymore then my _second_ thought is that HCA will lose alot of sales this year that they would have had.
Too early in HCA's come back to be doing this Pro Dealer only sales campain! Time will tell I guess.
Also, what does this mean for me with 2 older HCA bows, no dealer anywhere near me, so my warranty is about useless now..??


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## Mrwintr (Jan 15, 2006)

dillio67 said:


> As a pro shop owner and knowing other owners who sold HCA a long time and a lot of them are not really all that enthusiastic about embracing HCA again....especially with all the new bows out today and lines they have picked up since .....


This is very true ^^^^ , There used to be two different dealers within reach of me, years ago, and they said they will have nothing to do with High Country again, they told me this when I tried to get them back into carrying High Country again.


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## lla (Feb 3, 2003)

you hit the nail on the head
Gregg


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## VA2 (Mar 26, 2007)

Why doesn’t HC drop the number of bows that a dealer has to order so more Pro Shops will carry them…?


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## lla (Feb 3, 2003)

It is not the number of bows to order 
I & some of the other dealers are having an issue with the internet & mail shipping sales
the bows must be sold out of your shop.

I can see where a concern could be, as to setting up the bow correctly for the customer

I would have to say if the draw length (spec) was correct to start with it may not be an issue
as the bows are useally set to the customers spec's that they have shot for some time
just a thought
Gregg


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## ArcheryBowx (Mar 2, 2003)

*hca.......king of the box stores*

High country screwed the dealers hard before, it will be hard to regain there trust....Every Catalog, Box Store that ever existed had them (HCA), live by the big guy, die by the big guy/ thats what happened.


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## iron mace07 (Jun 1, 2007)

*i could name a company that*

screwed over dealers, and its one of the big bow manufacs. i am not sur eon what are how things were when you are talkign about , but this that i talking about is very rcent.one of my beest freinds s hop had to close down due to it. but i tell you this, if people are suppose to give others a second chance, then why not give HCA a second chance? I mean how can anyone change if no one allows them to show you this is now that was then.I bet when that old chevy you drove let you down, i bet you went bought anohter chevy. thing about it, times change people change.


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## fastpassthrough (Jan 25, 2003)

VA2 said:


> Why doesn’t HC drop the number of bows that a dealer has to order so more Pro Shops will carry them…?


2 bows level 1 is to much and 3 level 2


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## fastpassthrough (Jan 25, 2003)

ArcheryBowx said:


> High country screwed the dealers hard before, it will be hard to regain there trust....Every Catalog, Box Store that ever existed had them (HCA), live by the big guy, die by the big guy/ thats what happened.


High country pulled there line out of cabelas and bass pro to help the dealers, hca had the highest price bow in cabelas.I guess they should of just had another name to go under like the rest then it is ok.


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## iron mace07 (Jun 1, 2007)

*very well said*

Richard, some people will live in the past and some will learn to see in time. and there is plenty of time in the future for those who wish to see. I think HCA is moving in the right direction and other will too soon, we as archers , should all come together and bring archery back to the Pro shops, and out of the big stores, like Cabellas and bass pro shop. Do you see Mathews bows in either place? NO you dont, so why shoudl all give HCA the mess, it works keepign bows in the Pro shops only.wake up people.Keep up the good work , HCA


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## Prodigyoutdoors (Jul 3, 2005)

WTG :cocktail:


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## amarchery (Nov 28, 2007)

*We Are On Board With Hca*

*Glad to say we are on board as a dealer with HCA!* Southeast Missouri, we are located in Dexter, Missouri just off of Highway 60 on the Outer Road. Wal Mart is just across Hwy 60 from us. 

Anyone close give us a call at 573-624-5421 or come by and see us to check out the HCA lineup. Give us a week to get our Iron Mace bows and then the Speed force a week or so after that. Just finalized today and made our initial order of HCA bows.

Come and get 'em when we get 'em! Thanks to Steve and all @ HCA for the opportunity.

Mark J
American Outdoors
Dexter, Missouri


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## jms375 (Jul 29, 2007)

When I bought my Iron Mace I could have bought one on the internet for $125 less but bought it from my pro shop because I knew my local shop would take care of any problems I ever had no questions asked. The internet sales can be good for people that have no dealers anywhere close. My only problem with it is like with the Mace people were selling brand new bows for cheaper than dealers were getting them. That hurts sales all over when someone looks on there and then goes to their dealer and want the same deal and can't get it. I don't think HCA has much choice but to go this way from a business standpoint. Just my .02


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## Mrwintr (Jan 15, 2006)

fastpassthrough said:


> 2 bows level 1 is to much and 3 level 2


This must be new too! I was just told last year by HCA that I just needed to fill out a dealer application and buy *1 bow* and I could be a HCA dealer....


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## Wyvern Creations (Sep 20, 2006)

'My only problem with it is like with the Mace people were selling brand new bows for cheaper than dealers were getting them"

That can be cured by a MAP policy that is ENFORCED!!! The world of retail has changed. The internet has opened up a huge new world of possibilities for those of us that have decided to go that route. If a properly enforced MAP policy was in place, Pro Shops could be more than competitive and even more so with the additional serviced they provide while still allowing those at a distance to obtain product they desire. The only reason internet is an issue is price. I sell Tenpoint crossbows at MAP on the internet. It is the same price that a brick and morter store "should" sell it for. I however, am much higher profile and easier to check on than most B&M stores and I have the reverse issue where pro shops are selling below MAP and I have to do the reporting and complaining. "Pro shop only" will only allow this bow to be obtained by people within 50 miles of a authorized dealer. Either HC hopes to be in every dealer across the US, or they are willing to allow sales to slip by. Again, it is a nice thought, but ultimately, it will not work since it is too limiting, and HC bows are already being on Ebay being sold by "pro shops" with back door Ebay stores. This policy comes back down to what kind of MAP enforcement/policing are they doing, and what is a "pro shop" by their definition?? Not trying to be a pain here, just looking at this from another direction...

Wyvern


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## lla (Feb 3, 2003)

amarchery
glad you here you are board

?
how did you do it yesterday as they were CLOSED
Gregg


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## pinshooter (Jun 11, 2004)

I don't have a dog in the fight since I don't have an hca but my shop did sell a couple this year. I think this is the right direction for hca. If you have a good product the best way to sell is to dealers and get it in the hands of their staff shooters. Word of mouth and a good product will sell. Trying to bypass dealers is a bad business deal.


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## fastpassthrough (Jan 25, 2003)

*Pro shops*

Lets face it guys pro shops are closing at a very fast pace, they are the heart of archery fact. If we as manufacturers do not step up to the plate and back our dealers, then dealers as we know it will be gone! which may be fine for todays archers that has experience in there own set ups, but what about all the newcomers that are going to keep bow hunting going and are forced to buy a bow over the internet and do not have a clue, nor anyone to even point them in the right direction. We must help our dealers for our sake, dealers sake, and long term bow hunting sake!


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## Wyvern Creations (Sep 20, 2006)

That sentiment is wonderfull, but the reality is somewhat diferent.

No pro shop will be able to survive with just HC and one or two "pro shop only" lines. Pandoras box has been open and all you have to do is go to Ebay or open a Cabelas catalog to see it. Unless, as an industry, you all turn around and say NO Ebay or internet sales, and tell Cabelas and Bass Pro Shops and all the rest that they can only sell from their retail stores and no more catalog or internet then this policy is a show of defiance at best and will eventually be put asside infavor of increased sales. 

I applaude HC for the gesture, but as we have seen on this thread, there are those that have no dealer near them(they loose out) or the one that is near them is an idiot( they loose out there too). HC seems inclined to loose those sales to support their dealers. Very high principals and again, I applaude that. However, how many lost sales and frustrated customer calls will it take before HC opens up online selling, or customer direct sales???

Lets be real...the reason pro shops are closing is not because of the internet, or ebay, or mail order. It is from a lack of the ability to adapt to a changing market. A true "PRO" shop has services and advice that will never be gotten thru mailorder. Price is not everything and any successfull retailer will tell you that there are ways to compete and not have price be an issue. There is also a huge lack of "professional" pro shops owned by "business men". A guy and his hunting buddy that have a bow press and a few pieces of peg board with doe pee hanging from it is not a "pro shop". A business man, that took his hobby and interest to a profession and puts his customers success in the field before his own...THAT is a pro shop (even if all he has is a bow press and some peg board with doe pee). Larry from "Larrys bow shop" and his hunting buddy "the manager" are the same people who walk thru the ATA show and go up to the manufacturers and try to get free stuff for themselves rather than concentrate on what will sell in their shop and working on deals and relationships with manufacturers that will make them more competitive. 

Yes....many "Larrys bow shops" are closing. However, they neither do a good job of servicing their customers and promoting archery or represent the manufacturs very well. If you are a pro shop and the best you can do to compete with the internet and mail order is stamp your feet and demand the manufacturers stop selling to your competitors then maybe its time you found another line of work...

Wyvern


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## michihunter (Mar 2, 2003)

fastpassthrough said:


> Lets face it guys pro shops are closing at a very fast pace, they are the heart of archery fact. If we as manufacturers do not step up to the plate and back our dealers, then dealers as we know it will be gone! which may be fine for todays archers that has experience in there own set ups, but what about all the newcomers that are going to keep bow hunting going and are forced to buy a bow over the internet and do not have a clue, nor anyone to even point them in the right direction. We must help our dealers for our sake, dealers sake, and long term bow hunting sake!


Very commendable Richard. However, I think you may be forgetting that those same children are not gonna travel 50+ miles to purchase a bow. Unless you can cover a greater area with dealers, you may be doing more harm than good to those potential newcomers. There is definitely a better way to make your goal a reality as well as keep potential internet customers happy.


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## Mrwintr (Jan 15, 2006)

fastpassthrough said:


> Lets face it guys pro shops are closing at a very fast pace, they are the heart of archery fact. If we as manufacturers do not step up to the plate and back our dealers, then dealers as we know it will be gone! which may be fine for todays archers that has experience in there own set ups, but what about all the newcomers that are going to keep bow hunting going and are forced to buy a bow over the internet and do not have a clue, nor anyone to even point them in the right direction. We must help our dealers for our sake, dealers sake, and long term bow hunting sake!


And you never answered this for me Richard, since I have no dealers within 100+ miles of me, how will I get any warranty service on the HCA bows I have now?? Or will I still be able to get things fixed through the factory?
In other words, are there going to be any exceptions to your rules?


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## fastpassthrough (Jan 25, 2003)

Mrwintr said:


> And you never answered this for me Richard, since I have no dealers within 100+ miles of me, how will I get any warranty service on the HCA bows I have now?? Or will I still be able to get things fixed through the factory?
> In other words, are there going to be any exceptions to your rules?


You will always be able to get any repairs if needed done at hca!


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## Idaho_Elk_Huntr (Dec 13, 2003)

fastpassthrough said:


> You will always be able to get any repairs if needed done at hca!


If it had of been like that when I purchased one years back I might be there but once I get a bad taste in my mouth I done with it.


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## iron mace07 (Jun 1, 2007)

*well there ya go*

elk has never had a issue with any other bow and no other bow manufactor has had a problem , they all stayed the same in design and customer service. dang, wonder how they keep improving on products and serv.When i see a remark like that, i have to ask, what kinda truck you drive, and i just bet it has never broke down or had a issue, andi just bet when you went to a dealership, i just bet they were perfect to you, everyone just kissd your @$$ when you walked in.hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm.
and in conclusion to that, id like to say times change and so do people,
and just maybe it isnt the bow with the issue, yet another hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm


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## Deer30 (Oct 19, 2006)

I would have been a great rep for High Country, but not now. I feel as if I was lied to and have got to say I don't appreciate it. Last year you didn't have a problem with selling me bows to sell on the INTERNET and I thought we would have a great relationship. I guess I should have listened to the ones PMing and telling me to watch my back just from their past dealings with HCA and even Newberry. I set up a credit card processor and purchased a credit card machine to process payments so people could purchase bows and arrows. I agreed to a year contract with them and now any bows I have sold I have got to give the money to the credit card processor. Please take my name off your dealer list. Anthony's Archery in Ohio. I don't even want to talk to High Country anymore. :angry:

Please update your web page and spec sheets too. This would be very beneficial for your "Pro Shops"


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## siucowboy (Aug 31, 2006)

The one questions I haven't seen answered is will there be a way for people over a certain distance (50 miles, 100 miles, etc) to purchase a high country? I'm interested in the new speed force, but to be honest I'm not driving 180 miles to Lincoln NE or 230 miles to Omaha (if there is even a dealer over there) to buy one. Elite will allow a dealer to ship to me since there are no dealers close by, so will Bowtech....


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## michihunter (Mar 2, 2003)

siucowboy said:


> The one questions I haven't seen answered is will there be a way for people over a certain distance (50 miles, 100 miles, etc) to purchase a high country? I'm interested in the new speed force, but to be honest I'm not driving 180 miles to Lincoln NE or 230 miles to Omaha (if there is even a dealer over there) to buy one. Elite will allow a dealer to ship to me since there are no dealers close by, so will Bowtech....


And therein lies the problem with this policy (btw- the ad specifically states no mail orders). HCA has just wittled their customer base to those that live within reasonable distance to their product. Not knowing just how many dealers are in the HCA network I can only speak in regard to my locale. I live in a MAJOR metropolitan area and the closest HCA dealer is close to 50 miles away. Within that same radius I have dozens of other dealers that carry a multiple line of other mfg's. If I cannot buy one without traveling qa great distance to not only get one, but to have one serviced, I doubt I will be an HCA customer. And I truly wouldn't mind testing one out and perhaps becoming a loyal customer. I would hope Richard figures out a way to make this work for EVERYONE instead of just catering to the proshop crowd that isn't necessarily always PRO material.

For you proshop owners that seem to be happy with this new policy, have you figured out just how many sales you have lost as a result of this policy when mail orders are no longer available to you as well?


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## iron mace07 (Jun 1, 2007)

*deer30*

I see how professional you are and how you do things, i mean coming on her like that, on a positive thread and you came on to say things like that, I wouldnt buy a bow form you if you were close to me, very very un professional.just my 2 cents, Not sure High country will miss the negitive you bring.


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## Mrwintr (Jan 15, 2006)

Hmmmm, I thought Deer30's post was just fine since he was just stating how he was mislead and burned.
I have to say, Iron mace07, I think your comments are actual doing HCA as much harm here as any I have read.


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## michihunter (Mar 2, 2003)

iron mace07 said:


> I see how professional you are and how you do things, i mean coming on her like that, on a positive thread and you came on to say things like that, I wouldnt buy a bow form you if you were close to me, very very un professional.just my 2 cents, Not sure High country will miss the negitive you bring.


Iron Mace- With all due respect, "positive thread" for who? The couple of dozen HCA dealers out there? Hardly positive for those of us (the actual customers that BUY the product) that were once interested in the HCA line but now have to drive 100's of miles to obtain one. And although HCA may not miss Deer 30 too much in your eyes, I bet they will miss the money he generated for them. I was actually planning on getting my Speed Force from him because I know him from another board. And now I doubt I'll even get a chance to try one much less buy one. No problem though, the dealers will have this positive thread to help em feel better about the direction HCA is going.


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## Deer30 (Oct 19, 2006)

iron mace07 said:


> I see how professional you are and how you do things, i mean coming on her like that, on a positive thread and you came on to say things like that, I wouldnt buy a bow form you if you were close to me, very very un professional.just my 2 cents, Not sure High country will miss the negitive you bring.



You can't be serious right let me let you read a thread and then you tell me about bringing a negative. http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=598477. Then tell me who stepped up to the plate? I wouldn't sell you a bow talking crap like that either and you are not representing them very well either. You didn't put money into equipment and watch it go down the tubes. What they did wasn't very professional either. I am out money now thanks to High Country. Why is it so nonprofessional? You get your bow for a discount or who knows maybe even free so don't talk to me about what is professional until you are throwing your money down the drain. I have given High Country and now the bank waisted time and Money. In my opinion I have a right to be upset. JUST MY 2 CENTS. If you think I am the only one that feels this way you are niave. They will come forward very soon.


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## shooter82 (Jan 1, 2007)

*well ok*

i think it is good to back pro shops but in a situation im in we dont have none one place can not even put a loop on correct and why do i want to spend that kind of money on something they can not even back as a so called pro shop and i do think prices do need to be droped on bows you all went from one of the top brand bows to disapering act to now back with this come on do the math becarefull what you wish for some pro shops hurt more then helps


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## USNarcher (Oct 12, 2002)

fastpassthrough said:


> Lets face it guys pro shops are closing at a very fast pace, they are the heart of archery fact. If we as manufacturers do not step up to the plate and back our dealers, then dealers as we know it will be gone! which may be fine for todays archers that has experience in there own set ups, but what about all the newcomers that are going to keep bow hunting going and are forced to buy a bow over the internet and do not have a clue, nor anyone to even point them in the right direction. We must help our dealers for our sake, dealers sake, and long term bow hunting sake!


Richard, I was just told by my local ebay HC dealer that you would not let him sell on ebay. I think that is great. In a way that you are trying to help out the store front guy. Like I said before. I would be more than willing to help out the little guy trying to make something from what he has a passion for. :thumbs_up


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## Wyvern Creations (Sep 20, 2006)

Provided the product is being sold on Ebay and the net at the MAP pricing and not at $5.00 over cost, what is the issue with internet sales??? If I sell a bow on line for $500.00 and the store down the road sells that same bow for $500.00 but offers free set up, the local guy will probably go to the store since it is a better deal. I however, will be able to sell to the guy that has no local dealer, and the customer that either sets up his own equipment, or does not want to deal with that dealer for whatever reason. This is a very short sighted policy....

Wyvern


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## siucowboy (Aug 31, 2006)

siucowboy said:


> The one questions I haven't seen answered is will there be a way for people over a certain distance (50 miles, 100 miles, etc) to purchase a high country? I'm interested in the new speed force, but to be honest I'm not driving 180 miles to Lincoln NE or 230 miles to Omaha (if there is even a dealer over there) to buy one. Elite will allow a dealer to ship to me since there are no dealers close by, so will Bowtech....


Still no answer...

By March I'll have bought another bow...hope HCA doesn't rule itself it.


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## Wyvern Creations (Sep 20, 2006)

This close to the ATA show I would be surprized to see much of an answer from any manufacturer. There is so much to do before the show that this forum is probably way down on their list, so a lack of response may just be because they dont have the time to reply. The other thought is that this thread went way off base from where they thought it would go. The initial attachment is a copy of a full page add in a trade magazine. I am sure this thread was intended to attract more dealers to HC and their ATA booth. The limitations that have been brought up by potential customers may have thrown them a curve they did not expect and now they are having to figure out some way to address those limitations without breaking the gaurentee they have given dealers that there will be no competition coming in the form of a UPS truck. They have kinda painted themselves into a corner.

Wyvern


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## iron mace07 (Jun 1, 2007)

*when i posted that*

i was meaning by his way that he came on in such a negative way, against HCA.I am sure he is a great person, and is very knowlegdable in archery, but only HCA and deer30 knows what went wrong.Im njust saying coming on with that post wasnt very professional, but thats my opinion. as far as me causing them harm, i doubt that very seriously, Im just quick to get on the defense is all, and i dont find that harming anyone, I mean its merely my opinion.I try very hard to refrain form saying what id really love to say, so I think I do a great job , for HCA. And if i affend anyone then i aoplogize, but its just a open forum which is full of opinions, isnt that correct, we are here to try to help archery grow, i see no need to bash or belittle anyone . maybe my words dont come out corect, but i am sure the meaning to most are taken out of context, alot.again if i made someone angry my voiveing my opinion then i aplogize. have a happy new years


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## iron mace07 (Jun 1, 2007)

*deer 30*

i stand corrected, you sir went above the call of duty on that case, high fives on that. i have done same. and let me say i never seen that thread. im not sure what went wrong with you and HCA , and its probally not my business.but i wanted to let you knwo that i did read that thread and , i think you done a great job on that issue. have a great new years


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## Deer30 (Oct 19, 2006)

iron mace07 said:


> i stand corrected, you sir went above the call of duty on that case, high fives on that. i have done same. and let me say i never seen that thread. im not sure what went wrong with you and HCA , and its probally not my business.but i wanted to let you knwo that i did read that thread and , i think you done a great job on that issue. have a great new years


Absolutely no hard feelings at all. I understand some just say things to start trouble. I feel lied to or better yet used. They used people to get the mace out by giving dealerships to people without doing any kind of background check, credit check ect... I know people who called them up to say they wanted to be a dealer just to get the three bows for so cheap. I didn't do that, I already had my mace and had every intention on creating a business that I love doing. High County was an excellent opportunity to do that. I made all the necessary purchases to service and set fully loaded bows up to send them to customers. This is no problem maybe some day I can afford to carry a well known brand. Only time will tell. 

Once again I apologize for being to the point, but I am a little angry at HCA's spontaneous decisions that cost me money. If I were a long time HCA dealer, I would be so mad for the influx of these so called dealers that took a lot of their business that they deserved for staying with HCA through thick and thin. HCA comes out with an Industry Noise maker in the Mace and then let any Tom, Dick and Harry become a dealer.


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## amarchery (Nov 28, 2007)

*huh*



lla said:


> amarchery
> glad you here you are board
> 
> ?
> ...


Gregg

I have been working on becoming a dealer for about two weeks. They have been waiting on me. For what it is worth Steve from HCA called me promptly the other day when I needed the new fax #, I faxed the dealer ap, we finalized the dealer ap, and I placed an order for bows.

If you have any other questions just PM me or something. Sorry to confuse you. Not sure if you doubt it or what. Steve must check his email etc on days off. 

Steve @ HCA has been very good since we applied and has been very professional during the dealer set-up process. Is it really shocking that a rep or sales person would call on a day off or something? I do not understand the doubt in all of that. 


Thanks
Mark


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## screamingeagle (Sep 12, 2004)

Well that settles it for me. Since I'm not going to drive 6 hours round trip to buy a HC bow from the closest dealer, I think I'll order that Elite GTO :wink:

Thanks for helping me make up my mind. 

:cocktail:


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## lla (Feb 3, 2003)

sorry, for the spelling errors
glad to hear you are aboard!!! :embara:

amarchery
So you know, I have been a dealer from 1999
I see you will be a very aggressive dealer 
welcome 
Gregg


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## Flintlock1776 (Aug 19, 2006)

*Good luck*

Google HCA full name however and there are plenty of sites that offer the stuff discounted. Reckon it will take a big effort to cull out those offering new? Never can stop sale of used equipment but to hold off the net on new will be hard. Good luck.


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## rrcherry (Mar 20, 2007)

So, it really appears there are some trust issues with the archery pro shops and High Country....

So the question remains:

Will High Country be selling direct at the Harrisburg Show like past years, or are they now truly a Pro Shop only bow line?


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## Wyvern Creations (Sep 20, 2006)

"...So the question remains:..."

Ummm...as I see it there are a lot of questions about this new policy that "remain". HC has been strangely silent on this and the other HC post as to addressing concerns from both customers and potential dealers. You would think if they started this thread they would do more to address these questions than the couple of sentences that they have posted. I would like to see either a detailed explaination of their policies and what they intend to do about the questions that have been raised or a statement that basicly says they did not anticipate these issues and are revamping their policy to address them and will post a decision once one is made. Asking "what if..." and hearing static does nothing to instill confidence in the company no matter how good the product may be...

Wyvern


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## fastpassthrough (Jan 25, 2003)

*Dealer only*

we will not sell direct! If there is a situation where a consumer wants a bow,and there is no HCA dealer with in exceptable travel, we will look at the local dealers (does not have to be a hca dealer), and run it through them!


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## fastpassthrough (Jan 25, 2003)

rrcherry said:


> So, it really appears there are some trust issues with the archery pro shops and High Country....
> 
> So the question remains:
> 
> Will High Country be selling direct at the Harrisburg Show like past years, or are they now truly a Pro Shop only bow line?


Last year HCA was not selling directly at the harrisburg show they were there supporting 2 dealers! and i doubt we will even have time to do that this year do to all the orders that have came in even before the ATA show.


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## Wyvern Creations (Sep 20, 2006)

"we will not sell direct! If there is a situation where a consumer wants a bow,and there is no HCA dealer with in exceptable travel, we will look at the local dealers (does not have to be a hca dealer), and run it through them!"

Well...the exclaimation points were unnessicary, but I guess this is about as detailed an answer as we will get. I still see issues with this, primarily in the policing of MAP and internet sales with the dealer commitment being so low. It is kind of a double edged sword. To get the product in as many stores as possible you make it easy to buy in. The problem is that there is no way to make sure that with that many stores none are not breaking the policies. Well...I will give them credit..they are holding to their idea and it is a unique direction, so I wish them luck...

Wyvern


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## michihunter (Mar 2, 2003)

While I applaud the committment that HCA has made, I truly think they just cut their own throat by not allowing exceptions such as the distanced customer programs other mfg's allow. Thanks for the clarification Richard but I'm afraid I'll be passing on HCA this year. The closest shop to me at the moment is a 3 hour round trip and if I ever needed service I'd have to expect the same trip. As much as I may like the looks and specs of the newest HCA offerings, I'm personally not willing to travel that far when there are so many (and I do mean MANY) other opportunities much closer to me. If by chance HCA comes up with a dealer closer to me in the near future I may rethink my plans but as of right now, it's hard to justify the trip. Good luck Richard. I truly wish you the best.:thumbs_up


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## rrcherry (Mar 20, 2007)

Now FastPassthrough...

Will you continue to gain dealer's trust back or loose it?

I quess loose it, as you just plainly lied.

You were selling directly to the consumer. You had HUGE signs up for the past several years, something along the lines of, "Buy Factory Direct, BELOW Dealer Pricing!"

Spencer himself, his wife, and son were all there selling directly to the consumer. I saw it, I almost bought a bow from you, until I spoke with the real pro-shops at the show. It is a fact you were selling directly... you were wheeling and dealing with me. You were selling bows for WAY below cost! Directly to me.

Now, if you really want dealers to believe you will be a Pro-Shop only bow company, you shouldn't start out by lying to them about your past practices. No thank you, you are not doing a good job building back the trust of dealers or potential customers.

Come on now, you were selling direct. You had 100s of bows, several looked used and beaten. All of which were for sale. Surely bringing 100s of bows wasn't by accident. Your agenda was to sell direct, and you were doing just that.

So will you this year?


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## siucowboy (Aug 31, 2006)

Sorry, even my "local" dealers are more of a drive than I'm going to do to pick up a bow that isn't a brand they carry (IF they're willing to have it run through them at all, I'm sure I'll pay even more that way for the service since they won't be dealers of HCA themselves).....

Speed Force was on my list this year, sadly now it will probably have to wait till someone wants to sell theirs.....course I'll probably have bought something else by then.

PS, I like your bows Richard really do and if I can get it done without major headaches, I'd love to give HCA a run again if possible.


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## fastpassthrough (Jan 25, 2003)

rrcherry said:


> Now FastPassthrough...
> 
> Will you continue to gain dealer's trust back or loose it?
> 
> ...


Well you really have a set to go on here on call someone a liar! when you do not even have a clue! the main dealer that the bows were ran through was a local pa dealer by the name of scott, HCA was there helping him sell the bows, the bows were mostly blems ands seconds that is why they were so cheap,there were very few 07 bows there,and they were at full retail, The year before that, yes we were selling direct and did have signs all over including the bus parked by the road wholesale to the public,and sold directly from the factory ,but not last year even the shooting staff had to be ran through a pro shop even if they did not sell HCA.You need to really think about what you saw last year the booths may of looked the same but the buy direct were not there, and you should of seen the dealers cards that were there.


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## iron mace07 (Jun 1, 2007)

*Richard*

the main t hing on this forum , is no one wants, to see that HCA is gonna be a force to be reckoned with . the facts are there for them to see, my question is , lets turn the tables on another manufactor, I will not mention name , but they dont sell to anyone but there dealers and they arent a very old company. And i dont see no one having a issue with them doing it.but no dont let HCA do the same.And they quick to jump on the bashing and calling names, I suggest however , for them to get t here stories correct, or stop repeatign second and third hand stories, seems to me thats what is beign done, one person tld this person and this person told that one, now no one knows truth.Richard , they will see in time, it hurts for others to see such a great bow. Just maybe if the dealers come shoot the bows, they there will be more dealers.JUst maybe , what ya think guys, why blame HCA , blame your dealers that are near you, I mean sellign them just puts a great bow in your hand and money in there pockets. See you at the Show Richard


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## siucowboy (Aug 31, 2006)

What company is that? (that only sells to dealers and isn't very old?)


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## michihunter (Mar 2, 2003)

iron mace07 said:


> the main t hing on this forum , is no one wants, to see that HCA is gonna be a force to be reckoned with . the facts are there for them to see, my question is , lets turn the tables on another manufactor, I will not mention name , but they dont sell to anyone but there dealers and they arent a very old company. And i dont see no one having a issue with them doing it.but no dont let HCA do the same.And they quick to jump on the bashing and calling names, I suggest however , for them to get t here stories correct, or stop repeatign second and third hand stories, seems to me thats what is beign done, one person tld this person and this person told that one, now no one knows truth.Richard , they will see in time, it hurts for others to see such a great bow. Just maybe if the dealers come shoot the bows, they there will be more dealers.JUst maybe , what ya think guys, why blame HCA , blame your dealers that are near you, I mean sellign them just puts a great bow in your hand and money in there pockets. See you at the Show Richard



Huh?


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## iron mace07 (Jun 1, 2007)

*mathews*

you have never seen mathews sell to anyone other than dealers, and im sure they arent into selling factory direct, or intenet sells, unless from a dealer., can u call up mathews and buy a bow str8 form the factory?If so i wasnt aware of it.I know PSE you cant buy from them, they send you to a dealer, however you do see there bows in bass pro and cablellas and god knows where else. but back to HCA, some will not agree with it some will, but its HCA choice to go in that direction, and i think its a step in right direction, good quality bows should be sold in pro shops.My opinion is dealers are what we need to help, and not allow them to become a dieing breed.And I think HCA archery has made is very easy to become a dealer, so whats the problem?Its that forums are a easy way to come on internet and voice a opinion, and make false statements, and keep a negetive going.
I mean most folks do live in the past, and never look to the future, and nothign anyone can do or say will change that.I think this thread has gone form a information annoucnement to a name calling or a small way of coming out to get on a bashing chain.again my opinion.
I can only speak of HCA in the last year as i just came aboard and I have had no issues with t hem or my bows. I shot the bows last year at the ATA show and just new it was the best bow, again my opinion, so lets move on, and get past , the past and move to the present and future. have a great new year and hope many get to try the new HCA.


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## michihunter (Mar 2, 2003)

iron mace07 said:


> you have never seen mathews sell to anyone other than dealers, and im sure they arent into selling factory direct, or intenet sells, unless from a dealer., can u call up mathews and buy a bow str8 form the factory?If so i wasnt aware of it.I know PSE you cant buy from them, they send you to a dealer, however you do see there bows in bass pro and cablellas and god knows where else. but back to HCA, some will not agree with it some will, but its HCA choice to go in that direction, and i think its a step in right direction, good quality bows should be sold in pro shops.My opinion is dealers are what we need to help, and not allow them to become a dieing breed.And I think HCA archery has made is very easy to become a dealer, so whats the problem?Its that forums are a easy way to come on internet and voice a opinion, and make false statements, and keep a negetive going.
> I mean most folks do live in the past, and never look to the future, and nothign anyone can do or say will change that.I think this thread has gone form a information annoucnement to a name calling or a small way of coming out to get on a bashing chain.again my opinion.
> I can only speak of HCA in the last year as i just came aboard and I have had no issues with t hem or my bows. I shot the bows last year at the ATA show and just new it was the best bow, again my opinion, so lets move on, and get past , the past and move to the present and future. have a great new year and hope many get to try the new HCA.


There has been very little name calling or a bashfest and you aren't the only one with an opinion. And as of yet, you've done nothing to convince ANYONE other than a few dealers as to the benefit of "Proshop" only policies. What the vast majority of opinions have said is that there is a BETTER way that would not only provide some great incentives for the dealers but would also provide opportunities for the CUSTOMERS. And who do you think is more important to any company? The dealers or the customers? In the approach HCA has taken, it appears the company has forgotten who it is that actually decides the long term success of that company. A good company ensures that his product is available to EVERYONE without causing too much hassle in obtaining that product. And there is definitely a better way to provide that service without cutting off your dealer network and/or your customer base that may not have a reputable dealer nearby. Unfortunately there doesn't seem to have been much foresight into the effects this policy will create. I truly doubt that there is a dealer network large enough to provide EVERYONE with a product from HCA. And because of that, they have just reduced their market considerably. Can they survive that? Let's hope so. But in the meantime they have basically cut off one of their hands by so drastically limiting the availability of their products . And not only that, they have created a sour feeling in a lot of people that once provided alternative means to selling the HCA product by in essence kicking them to the curb for a job well done. By saying to these same people 'thanks for letting me use you to sell our bows but sorry we don't need you anymore'. Do you not think there will be a trickle effect from that too? Don't you think the proshop dealers are smart enough to wonder if they too may someday be handed the same fate? As I said, there was/is a BETTER way of doing things IMO.


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## rrcherry (Mar 20, 2007)

So now you were selling blems and seconds at the show?

When I was there thinking about buying one, you really told me the oppossite. Do you see what I am getting at?

The stories just seem to change to better your new stories.

Look, I really don't want to argue anymore. You see things your way, I will see things mine. You were selling direct on the blems and old bows you had laying around, and you were not telling the customers they were such. Maybe your two dealers in PA were getting some profits from the 07 bows, but not the old ones.

I really do think selling to Pro Shops is the right way to go, and I am glad you are doing this. I agree they are the heart of the archery industry, and without them the sport will go generic and die out. All I am trying to say is that there seems to be some major mistrust from pro-shops and your promises. This is the feedback I very strongly got from 4 or 5 of the pro shops at the Harrisburg show. This is what I am going on. They didn't seem happy about you guys selling direct over the years, and didn't seem happy with High Country's past dealings.

Overall, I wish you the best. I hope it works out for you, and I hope more dealers start coming on board, and you regain their trust. I am not out to bash you, you posted the thread, and I posted my thoughts. Thats what posts are for. I was very unhappy when I was told by Spencer himself the bow was new, when it was clearly banged up. All the other proshops seemed to know better as well. I quess that left a rather bad taste in my mouth of your company. Well, maybe I'll see you at Harrisburg? Hope you guys will be a little more honest about the blems this year. Hopefully.


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## Wyvern Creations (Sep 20, 2006)

Well...for all the "Mathews does not allow internet sales" I have been reading I just punched up quite a few brand new drenalines on Ebay from "Ebay archery stores". "Pro Shop only" is a wonderfull dream, but the reality is that it does not happen. Obviously Mathews is just like every other manufacturer out there and does not police their dealers or the web and enforce their policies. HCA and the rest would be better off allowing internet sales and just enforce MAP pricing than to coddle the few pro shops throwing temper tantrums because they cannot compete with online sales. I have said it before...ANY proshop can easily compete with an online dealer if they actually were a "PRO shop". Enforce a pricing guideline, but allow retailers to distribute the product the way changing times dictate. 

I personaly am looking at bringing in a line or two of compounds (yes, HCA is something I will be looking at at the ATA show (provided they let me into the booth :wink) and spoke to one I was very interested in yesterday. Again, a "pro shop only" line. Well, there are allready 4 other shops within a 25m radius of me that carry that line yet they still wanted to talk to me about setting me up. Not much of a "protect the pro shop" line if the company is willing to saturate the market that way...It is almost a why bother??? Allow for the fact that I cant sell online, and at most (with todays gas prices) I MAY get a 35-40mile sphere of influence to generate customers, THEN deduct those that will buy from one of the other 4 shops, I am left with maybe a handfull of possible sales. Is it worth my time to bring in a line that I may sell 5 of all year when if I could put them online I could maybe sell 500??? I will look at this line and HCA among others, but I dont want to hear one word about low volume of sales if I cannot distribute these bows outside of my little 40 mile sphere...

Wyvern


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## Bob_Looney (Nov 17, 2003)

fastpassthrough said:


> we will not sell direct! If there is a situation where a consumer wants a bow,and there is no HCA dealer with in exceptable travel, we will look at the local dealers (does not have to be a hca dealer), and run it through them!


If you can make it work that would be great. Dealer makes his money on a bow he didn't have to stock and hopefully the consumer and dealer can continue to do business.

serialize every bow, record the serials when shipped and to whom. You'll find out real quick where the internet stuff comes from. We did it at Golden Eagle. Doesn't take long at all. Kinda fun listening to them stutter and stammer when they get the phone call too.


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## iron mace07 (Jun 1, 2007)

*i think the name of poster ccherry*

r wh at ever it was, the number of post tells it all, come on out say y who you really are. hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm. seems you jumped on this thread to soley come on here ot bash and call names and try to discredit, HCA. I think the htread started out with a announcement, on plans to be pro shop and dealers only, you you have somehow gotten off the beaten bath. So do i take much into what you say, NO. And s hould others NO! so be gone or stop the name calling and bashing, i think AT rules are agaisnt that, OK mods, are you even seeign whats going on here?
Lets se how many more threads this person has been on.and see what he or she is all about. I d say a he .


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## michihunter (Mar 2, 2003)

He's been a member here longer than you!!!


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## siucowboy (Aug 31, 2006)

Richard, while i commend you wanting to give that level of committment to the dealers, i'm still worried that it will leave me incapable of buying a new HCA offering. BUT, when they start to become available I've decided not to rule you guys out before I call and talk to someone to see what they can do for me. Maybe there's a dealer somewhere out here I don't know about.
Thanks for all your cander and responses on here. Not often the person at the top of a bow company gives this much feedback to its end customers.


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## iron mace07 (Jun 1, 2007)

*once a gain wrong*

I have been on AT for over 5 years , just once had another name, which i changed due to changing my bows. well see how you look now. there ya go.


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## iron mace07 (Jun 1, 2007)

*and 24 post in that time*

thats also should throw up a flag. I mean so now you wanna throw it to me, internet is just that, internet.I mean some of the grown men act as they are because there wives would put them in ther eplace so they come on here tryign to be big men.please give it a rest already boys. LOL:greenwithenvy:


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## iron mace07 (Jun 1, 2007)

*Mods?*

can u see what is happening here. how did this go form a annuncement, to a thing of bashing HCA . it has gone way off base. thank you for having a great forum, but really.


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## rrcherry (Mar 20, 2007)

I really don't think anyone is bashing? Everyone seems to be giving/asking legitimate questions. Personally, I truly wish High Country the best. I still have my old Excalibur, and I shot my first buck with it. I am just asking some basic questions about what I saw at the Harrisburg show and the feedback I recieved from the pro shops there. High Country had their hay-day, and I was a proud High Country supporter. Then I was at the Harrisburg show, and had the incident mentioned above happen to me, and I really was bummed and disheartened over the situation.

They all seem like geniune concerns and questions.

All in all, I will end my postings with;
Good luck High Country, wish you the best! Hope you stick to your guns (or bows) on this one.


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## michihunter (Mar 2, 2003)

iron mace07 said:


> can u see what is happening here. how did this go form a annuncement, to a thing of bashing HCA . it has gone way off base. thank you for having a great forum, but really.


If there's a post here that you feel is inappropriate, all you have to do is go to that particular post and click on the red/white triangle in the right hand corner and it will go directly to the mods. But I truly doubt you will get anything accomplished because there has been no bashing or rule infractions here. Just questions and statements made by concerned members.


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## amarchery (Nov 28, 2007)

*Enough*

HCA sells to Pro Shops only. Good communication between the dealers and HCA will benefit consumers whether they are local or not. Circumstances exist and can be worked out.

There has been plenty in my opinion written here on this announcement thread about how HCA did this and that. Enough. 

Find something constructive to do, please. Wishing the best and then trying to discourage consumers and dealers of doing business with a company is a silly statement. Give it a break.

I believe there are some statements in here that should be removed by a mod. Not what this forum is about. Why dont you just reply, "Yes and you suck!". About the same thing. 

MJ


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