# make a call!!



## kward598 (Sep 25, 2002)

I have a topic to discuss. Onthe Bail you have 4 people shooting, you get an arrow that is close. Now in this case the caller called it in, the other shooter agreed and the odd man out said I need a judge. Well I doidn't think you could call a judge if the bail had decided? so we get a judge and he called it in. What a waste of time! how many times has this happpened in your groups?

then we get the ones that are clearly out, everyone calls it out and the shooter wants a judge. Judge calls it in. Crazy, luck of the draw with the judge? 

we also have the " I am not sure you can call a judge if you want" callers that should not be callers at all! 

I know we want to error on the side of the archer, well most of us do, but should we announce to the judge that the majority has decided but we need him to confirm for this one shooter? I know most do not want to hurt someones feelings or create an enviroment that is hard to compete in within the group, it may hurt your own shooting. what do you do???


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## bigtim (May 26, 2004)

*rrrr....*

well the line judge is there to call arrows...the shooters on the bail have a role as a scorer or caller, BUT, we are all really there to shoot.

it's just part of it and depends on the guys/gals that are on your bail,
I wouldn't call it "luck of the draw" for a line judge and as a rule folks that shoot a lot of spot tournaments know to try to decide themselves as a group for a close one, as judges many times will make you put up a new target which sucks if you have a good hole wollered out in the middle, (little tactic shared with me by Jamie Jennings, when I would have a close one every 3 ends on a vegas face, would call over a judge, get the call and be told to put up a new face and have to "start over".

it can seem like a waste of time, but everyone's round is important to them, and when multiple opinions are asked for, undoubtedly the door is open for differences, which is why a line judge is there...

it happens, it's best to just chill out and go with the flow, it even happens at the big show, just ask the guy who shot against REO in vegas.
The first judge thought his was in for a 3 x 30 for the win and the other 2 judges said "out"...
OUCH

just dot the middle so there is no question baby!


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## GATOR-EYE (Jun 30, 2006)

Call the line judge and let him do his job.

Although,,, I can say I ve never had anyone call on a line judge in a attemp to have a arrow called out.

Sounds just plain catty to me.:mg:


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## WVDBLLUNG (Feb 8, 2008)

I don't think the Line Judge should be used unless you are shooting in the top divisions (PRO) or Championship flights. Flights 2 on down are not going to win anything of importance anyway and the shoots take way too much time as it is. The line judge should only be called if two people call the arrow out differently and only after the other two (score keepers) have looked at it as well and call it out differently. Of 4 people if 3 call it out - its out.

The shoots this past weekend at L-Ville took way too long to complete and there were too many judges viewing arrows dertermining 5th place on down which still means you are not the champ. The need comes into play when it could be mean winning the "BOWL" or coming in 2nd.


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## Wilde (May 21, 2002)

First - any archer, on your bail, can call a judge if he or she disagrees with a call - it is not a majority rule. 

Second; The person doing the calling needs to make a call before they ask or request for opinions. That is what they agreed to do.

Third & unfortunate - but allowable - some archers (and you will see this more in international competitions) are told to call the arrow out if it is close by coaches and fellow competitors. That way it has a chance of being called out and as it sounds like in this case effect your game.

We all have had arrows called out that "WE" thought were in and vise versa. 

Finally - Control what you can control and try not to worry about what you cannot.

Dee


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## Stash (Jun 1, 2002)

How can anyone disagree with the Grand Master? 

It's really quite simple.

The caller makes all the calls. If a call is close, he should alert the other
archers on the bale what he is going to call the arrow. "I'm going to call this arrow a 9 - anyone disagree?"

Every archer on the bale has the responsibility of being involved in calling arrows.

For events where there is a judge available:
If there is any disagreement, call the judge for a decision. In some cases, and it should be made known in advance, there is the option by any archer on that bale for a majority 2 out of 3 judge call.

When you call a judge over, simply ask for a call on the value of the arrow. There should be no explanations, no discussion of who disagreed, no trying to influence the judge's call. You simply ask the judge to "please make a call on the value of this arrow".

Any judge who says anything other than "the arrow is a [whatever]" and tries to explain his call by saying he can't make out the line or some such, needs to be retrained. There is no such thing as "close goes to the archer" - it's either in or out.

For events where a judge is not available:
A simple majority of the shooters on the bale NOT INCLUDING THE ARCHER whose arrow it is, makes the decision. If that is tied, the archer himself then gets to make the tie-breaking call.

There should be no game-playing or favoritism - just call the arrow as you fairly see it, and if someone calls your arrow out, even if you disagree, there's no reason to hold a grudge.

I've been following this guideline for about 35 years now, and can only recall 2 instances where an archer whose arrows I have called "out" has made an issue of it.


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## Stash (Jun 1, 2002)

And for "new" archers - don't be intimidated by archers who are better shots than you, or more experienced, or even top professionals. If you think their call is wrong, you have every right to call an arrow as you see it, doesn't matter whose arrow it is. 

Let the judge make the decision - that's what they are there for. 

And anyone who blames you for a point they think the judge took away from them because you called the judge over, isn't worthy of your company.


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## field14 (May 21, 2002)

The Grand Master says it very well, indeed. In addition, one thing that MUST be made clear here is, and this includes the "judge" making that call.

NOBODY, including the "line judge" is to touch the BALE, the TARGET, or the ARROW until ALL the arrows are called and scored. 

Technically, if anyone touches any of the above before they are called and tallied (scored), all the arrows can be called as zeroes!

If you have an arrow in question, make sure ALL of the other arrows on that bale are scored and tallied. Then, make certain NOBODY touches anything until that line judge has made the call. I've often seen it where the shooter, or the "caller" will actually touch the nock end of the arrow in question to point it out to the official...and technically, that arrow is a ZERO (or for certain is now OUT).

Whatever you do, do NOT touch or pull those arrows until all of them are called, scored, and tallied.

Many tournaments have it in their rules that the "line judge's (NOT PLURAL) call is FINAL. So always read the rules and know what you are getting into.

Many shooters do not read the tournament rules or brochure and get themselves into Dutch and a lot of heartache simply because they don't know the tournament rules for that event. Of course, you can harp and preach all you want as a tournament chairman to communicate those rules....and 10% won't get the "message" no matter what...but you do the best that you can.

The "comments" I hate hearing and teach line judges for events that I'm the tournament chairman NOT to say are:

1. I "think" that it is out....NEVER say "think" it is black or white...either it is IN or it is OUT; period. No apologies, and no gray areas. No arguments.

2. "Boy that is too close to call, but I'll give it to you THIS time; however, next time it is OUT." NO! Either it is in or it is out...none of this wishy-washy stuff. You are the line judge, make the call.

3. And the mother of sins at a TOURNAMENT....as a line judge: "Who's arrow is it? THAT, my friends, doesn't matter one iota and can cause all sorts of accusations of favoritism or "giving it" to the local guy, and taking it away from someone less known. 

4. If it is "Clyde's arrow" then I call it out (tongue in cheek). This too, should be avoided by any line judge. The arrow is called IN or it is called OUT....period. Personality, name, gender, creed, color, or Local shooter, hot dog PRO, or hot dog JOE, or beginner..... haven't one thing to do with it.

Sadly, I've seen and witnessed all four (and many others) going on at tournaments over the years. 

And like Dee Wilde says...some of it is "gamesmanship" in asking for a call on a competitor's arrow just to try to shake their confidence or stir a burr under their saddle. Sorta like coaches these days teaching their "students" to disrupt the concentration of their competitors and press the rules right to the limit at every opportunity.

field14


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## Chequamegon (Apr 7, 2006)

field14 said:


> The Grand Master says it very well, indeed. In addition, one thing that MUST be made clear here is, and this includes the "judge" making that call.
> 
> NOBODY, including the "line judge" is to touch the BALE, the TARGET, or the ARROW until ALL the arrows are called and scored.
> 
> ...


Great post Tom! All of us that hold the flag from time to time should take note.

Eric


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## 2fingers (Feb 2, 2006)

If you have an arrow in question, make sure ALL of the other arrows on that bale are scored and tallied. Then, make certain NOBODY touches anything until that line judge has made the call. I've often seen it where the shooter, or the "caller" will actually touch the nock end of the arrow in question to point it out to the official...and technically, that arrow is a ZERO (or for certain is now OUT).



It would not be a zero. The arrow was allready scored as a "9". The line judge could not call it any thing but a "9" after the arrow was touched.


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## Crown Trophy (Dec 3, 2003)

*once.....*

Only once have I had a situation that I beleived to be bogus as far as an arrow being called in or out. I was shooting in a money division in at an indoor tournament when I had a questionable arrow. Out of 4 shooters on the bail the caller called it out. I disagreed and the other two were split on their decissions. So we called for the Judge who came over and studied the arrow for about a minute or two and could not make up his mind and called for someone else, who was not a judge at that tournament, who promptly called it out after looking for perhaps two seconds. Now my gripe is about the judge that would not make a decission. This individuale has been around archery for many many years and knows the in and outs of it all. Funny how something that happened 5 years ago still sticks in my mind.....
Greg:smile:


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