# Please comment on my form



## twn417 (Jun 1, 2007)

Honestly looks great man... I might could lengthen a .5 inch.


----------



## aread (Dec 25, 2009)

What I can see looks pretty good. It's difficult to see much because of your dark shirt against the dark curtains. 

Because of the short ATA bow, you seem to have a higher anchor than you would with a longer ATA. Is this anchor as steady and repeatable as it should be? Do you have good range of motion in your release shoulder?

I can't see clearly, but it seems that there is something going on with your bow shoulder. How does it feel to you? Can you keep it down and steady when fatigue sets in? I may be seeing something that's not there, just can't see it well.

Allen


----------



## PCB (Jun 17, 2013)

Thanks Guys,

Here is another side-on. I was leaning a bit back and subsequently fixed that issue. I'm aiming downhill here


----------



## tmorelli (Jul 31, 2005)

I think you're still leaning back a bit and your stance looks much more open in the outdoor picture. Not necessarily "too" open, just different. It appears that your target side knee is locked out. 

overall, you're close. I'd shorten the draw length a touch (1/4"?) to get the rest of that leaning tendency out and the elbow up a bit. With some effort focused on not rocking those hips forward, a Dl change may not be needed at all.


----------



## mike 66 (Jan 21, 2010)

im gonna agree, it looks a little long, do you have a shoulder injury? i see what allen see to. but overall you look pretty good. always give clear pics shooting at a level target close ups are nice to.. videos are even nicer we can watch you shoot and see just whats going on. your feet , bow arm were in different spots release hand was different also....you look lined up pretty good . you might be preloading at the waist cant see that in a pic need video to confirm. it my be like tmorelli said you my be rocking the hips a bit.. hope this helps mike


----------



## PCB (Jun 17, 2013)

Thanks so much for the feedback. The photo of me shooting outside was a few weeks ago and since then I changed my release hand position a bit, closed my stance somewhat and tried to cure the leaning back. I just showed that photo cause it shows my bow arm and shoulder position which "should" not have changed that much.


Im entrigued as to the questions about having a shoulder injury. My shoulders are fine (that I know of). What are you seeing that makes you ask this?


----------



## aread (Dec 25, 2009)

PCB said:


> ....
> Im entrigued as to the questions about having a shoulder injury. My shoulders are fine (that I know of). What are you seeing that makes you ask this?


In the 2nd photo, I don't see any problems with your bow shoulder. It actually looks pretty good. It's down and forward in a pretty stable position.

You certainly made improvements to quit leaning back so much. 

The #1 question is how is your accuracy? Are you shooting good scores or do you need to do something to take it to a higher level?

Allen


----------



## PCB (Jun 17, 2013)

I shoot a suprise release and the arrow almost always hits the point at which I was aiming when the release fires (within say 1/2" at 35y). My groups thus come down to my ability to aim. Right now I shoot at 35y (max for my yard) at a 3" dot and average 3 out of 4 arrows in the dot. Misses are normally less than an inch or two out. Some days better and some worse. I'm trying to get my form more consistent to have more good days than bad. Goal right now is to be able to say that its rare for me to miss the 3" at 35y. I just get the feeling like every day something "feels" different and that impacts the ability to float on the dot. I'm hoping that taking 1/2" off the draw length will get my form into more of a repeatable notch but I wasn't sure. In the posts above, there is mention of adding DL and also taking off DL. Its so hard to figure out what would be best.


----------



## aread (Dec 25, 2009)

Your draw length is pretty close already. To get closer, there are a number of ways to fine tune your draw length:

From George Ryals (GRIV) - watch the float of your pin while aiming. Make very small adjustments until you find optimum. You won't ever stop your pin, but you should be able to reduce it significantly. Of course overall form makes a difference with this technique (and all of the others too)

From Tom Dorigati (field14) - draw, aim, close your eyes and execute the shot - if your arrows are not centered on the target either change your stance or change your DL. If your DL and stance are perfect, you should be able to shoot a 25 on the NFAA 5 spot with your eyes closed. From personal experience, this actually works.

From Larry Wise - shoot the longest distance that you can hold reasonable groups. Micro adjust DL to center the groups on the X

From Nuts & Bolts - hang a string on your target. Shoot a fletched arrow at the string from close range (5 to 10 feet). Adjust your sights until you are splitting the string. Then step back 15 to 20 feet, and shoot a bare shaft at the string. If the bare shaft hits the string, you are good. If not adjust your DL. The complication with this one is that tuning can affect your results, so you should go through his bare shaft tuning proceedures before you try this.

From Mike Cooper (JAVI) Adjust your DL so that the nock of your arrow at full draw is directly below your aiming eye. He also recommends that your DL be adjusted so that the string angle at full draw is about 44 to 45 degrees from the vertical. This part can be a problem since most (all?) of us don't have bows with adjustable ATA. And obviously, this won't work with short ATA bows.

The great tournement archer from a few years back, Terry Ragsdale is quoted as saying that he spent more time on getting the DL of a bow right than he did on all other tuning combined. I don't know what process he used, but it seemed to work for him.

There is more to it than just getting your bow adjusted to XX". Peep height, holding weight, stabilization, and a few other things play a part in optimal bow set up. And of course the most difficult thing to get adjusted right, is your form and your head. Absolutely perfect bow setup won't help you much if you aren't doing it right. But it is a good start.

Hope this helps,
Allen


----------



## PCB (Jun 17, 2013)

Thats great info. Thanks so much!


----------



## PCB (Jun 17, 2013)

I took some gopro footage this evening. Still haven't managed to get the new cam to drop my draw length but here's how things are looking:


----------



## aread (Dec 25, 2009)

Overall, you have very good form.

I notice a little up & down just before release. It's almost like you are slow punching on the bounce. Your somewhat tentative follow through is a symptom of this. This is a habit that you want to put an end to as soon as possible. When I have that problem, it involves bow hand tension or loss of back tension or both. The solution is to drill these on the blank bale.

Don't soften or relax your back when you hit the let-off. 

Start bow hand relaxation before your draw the bow. As mammals, we are quick to engage a muscle, but it takes a bit longer to fully relax it. It's a small thing, but you may as well build good habits as soon as possible.

Another drill is to draw and hold for as long as you think that you could execute a good shot, then let down. Only stay at full draw as long as your shot is holding together. Don't try to incorporate aiming into this drill. You can do it as a separate drill, but this drill is to focus on keeping your form together with no softening and no added tension. Find the happy place where you are relaxed, steady and don't feel the need to get the shot off NOW. This builds patience with the shot. 

The aiming drill is almost identical, except that you focus on the target and try to reduce your pin range of motion by figuring out which muscles should be relaxed and which should be engaged. 

With either drill, don't let the arrow go. Let down when you first feel the shot coming apart or excess tension building somewhere.

Hope this helps,
Allen


----------



## PCB (Jun 17, 2013)

Thanks Allen,

I'm conciously not aware of when the release will go off - it is a complete suprise and not being punched. I found when taking the video, I was wanting to ensure the arrow was level (cause then its easier to judge form), and hence may have appeared to punch on an upward movement (that would just be a conincidence). I agree though that I am still working on get consistency of muscle relaxation and back tension. I'm trying to find the happy place where one has good back tension yet not pulling too hard into the wall. The other happy place is just how extended the bow arm should be. I oscilate between 98% extended and 99%... I try and ensure its 99% pre-draw, then I draw and do a mental check to see how extended it is and find I can comfortably push it out another few mm which was probably lost during the compression of the draw cycle. I then have myself wondering... should I push out those few mm post-draw or should I leave things be as they are after the draw and proceed into the aiming cycle?


----------



## PCB (Jun 17, 2013)

I the video at just after the 6 second mark, you can actually see me straighten my bow arm a little as I push out to check that I'm 99% extended... is this a good or bad thing?


----------



## aread (Dec 25, 2009)

PCB said:


> I the video at just after the 6 second mark, you can actually see me straighten my bow arm a little as I push out to check that I'm 99% extended... is this a good or bad thing?


Bad thing. A general rule is that form parts that are set together tend to hold together. Form parts that are set separately or independently tend to come apart under pressure. Straightening your bow arm is a good example of something that is set up independently.

Of course this is just a tendency. You still have to work on it to reinforce it to the subconscious level.

Allen


----------

