# Question about sight ring



## arrow1347 (Mar 21, 2003)

*ring*

bigger is better, your not supposed to aim, the name of this game is point and shoot, check out my sight pins in the classifides


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Listen to Barry. He knows what he's talking about.

Anyone shooting below 1300 is better off with a ring, and it's often the case where bigger truly is better. 1/4" inside diameter is the smallest I'll use. I've started beginning archers out with 1/2" i.d. rings with good success. Allows them to quit aiming so hard and focus on form.

Pins are for experts only. Of course, many intermediate archers want to believe they are experts...

John.


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## Jason22 (Aug 16, 2008)

This is a very good open aperture. The ring is anodized alumnium. I haven't used the inserts, but if you want a smaller ID, they'd be great.
http://k1-archery.com/recurvesightpin/k1625.php


Edit - I should mention that I used to shoot an aperture that was too small in my opinion and I think it hurt my scores. If it's too small it's more like a pin to my eyeballs, but that might just be me. If it's too small and you're unsteady you work too hard to hold/force the pin in the middle which is bad. Even many advanced archers use massive apertures, so it seems your better off with an oversized aperture than an undersized one. 

I can shoot the small Shibuya apertures (with pin) if I'm physically able to handle my poundage, and can shoot relaxed. But if you're increasing poundage, training hard or getting into shape, the bigger rings are the cat's pajamas. Your brain can still aim just fine but you can relax more when your pin is bobbing around.


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## Steve N (Apr 27, 2004)

I make sight rings out of 1/2" and 3/4" steel pipe. Slice off a ring about 3/8-7/16" long and deburr both sides. (you can cut steel pipe with a tubing cutter, it just takes a while). Clamp it in a vice and drill & tap an 8-32 hole thru one side. Take an 8-32 x 3" machine screw, run a nut down close to the head and cut the head off. File the cut end smooth, with a slight taper, then run the nut off the cut end to rechase the threads. Reinstall the nut and thread the screw into the sight ring. Tighten the nut against the sight ring. Paint black. There you go, a 50 cent sight ring!


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Steve, the work is already done for you if you buy a $1.50 metal shaft collar from the hardware store (ACE usually has them in stock). They are already drilled and tapped for a 10-32 (compound) screw, or you can drill and tap them for the standard "recurve" 8-32 screw. I just epoxy in the threaded rod or screw and have 10-32 aperture holders for my sure-loc's. Works great and has never let me down. The shaft collars are nice and thick so you can see them in all lighting conditions (indoors and outdoors).

So even if you don't have a workshop or tools, you can still make these apertures in several sizes...


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## Steve N (Apr 27, 2004)

John, do you find weight to be an issue? The pipe isn't too bad weight wise. I'll have to get a few shaft collars. I'm shooting 1/2" pipe indoors now, and want to go to 3/4" or 1". I'm still concentrating too much on trying to center the gold instead of concentrating on form.


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## pineapple3d (Oct 23, 2002)

I use the aluminum shaft collars from McMaster-Carr. They work very well and keeps the weight down. The aluminum also lets me drill them out to a larger size and machine the out side down if needed. McMaster-Carr also sells 8/32 rod 2 1/2" long so all I have to do is epoxy them together.


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## archeryal (Apr 16, 2005)

I've been usinig Barry's sight pins (arrow1347) for a couple years - nice open pin, but with a bright fluorescent plastic ring inside it that works in high and low light (extending past the metal, so it captures more ambient light). 

The concept of the open pin is that your eyes will naturally center it on one of the concentric rings on the target and not force you to over-aim or move the pin off center when it covers the center. With a pin, you have a tendency to come off the center to see if it is on, then swing back.

The only issue is that an open ring is less convenient to aim "off" in a wind.


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## engtee (Oct 2, 2003)

I used to use shaft collars, but found that I tended to cant the bow with a round O.D. aperture. I bit the bullet and spent for the large Beiter aperture. That gives me a 12mm I.D. (which I reduce to 11mm by using a gutted black insert), but, more importantly, I use the flat top of the aperture as my level and find that it seriously decreases my tendency to cant. Also, in very windy conditions, an insert, with a pin, can be used.


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## arrow1347 (Mar 21, 2003)

*pin*

john, i'd like to send you one of my pins what color would you like? barry


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Barry, I look forward to seeing your aperture/pin.

Mark Williams (formerly of TL's Archery in Murphysboro, IL) used to make apertures out of a short length of orange plastic. He could see them better. I have not found the weight of a steel shaft collar to be a problem at all. It's merely a fraction of the weight of an extended sure-loc sight anyway. Mel, those shaft collars sound like a good way to go too. Can't beat the easy assembly and affordable price.

I paint mine with flat black paint on one side, and white paint on the other. Sometimes (rarely) I will use the white side if its a dark day, or the target is in the shade. But 90% of the time I'm using the flat black side.

John.


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## caspian (Jan 13, 2009)

personally I find an aperature to be unacceptably inaccurate. I have tried the Beiter 8mm and 12mm sight tunnels, but it feels like approximation at best - I have no idea if a poor shot was form related, or simply "fuzzy" aim.

enter the Titan Recurve scope. http://www.titanscopes.com/recurve.php problem solved.

I'll just add that I shot assorted competitve firearms sports for nearly 20 years, and I well understand the concept and the theory of the ghost ring sight. I just find them unsuited to any sort of precision marksmanship.


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## caspian (Jan 13, 2009)

personally I find an aperature to be unacceptably inaccurate. I have tried the Beiter 8mm and 12mm sight tunnels, but it feels like approximation at best - I have no idea if a poor shot was form related, or simply "fuzzy" aim.

enter the Titan Recurve scope. http://www.titanscopes.com/recurve.php problem solved.

I'll just add that I shot assorted competitve firearms sports for nearly 20 years, and I well understand the concept and the theory of the ghost ring sight. I just find them unsuited to any sort of precision marksmanship.


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## caspian (Jan 13, 2009)

personally I find an aperature to be unacceptably inaccurate. I have tried the Beiter 8mm and 12mm sight tunnels, but it feels like approximation at best - I have no idea if a poor shot was form related, or simply "fuzzy" aim.

enter the Titan Recurve scope. http://www.titanscopes.com/recurve.php problem solved.

I'll just add that I shot assorted competitve firearms sports for nearly 20 years, and I well understand the concept and the theory of the ghost ring sight. I just find them unsuited to any sort of precision marksmanship.


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## skydog (Sep 20, 2004)

*home made*

does anybody have a picture of their home made apetures? And are we talking about conduit sleeves? I would like to make one and try it. I trust by reading all of the replies that 1/2" is naa legal?


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## Jurasic Archer (May 23, 2002)

When I was a kid, I used to make my apertures from an Accra sight pin (3/8 diameter thin wall ring), I then would slip a rubber o ring into them to bring the diameter in. Once I had the diameter I wanted , I would glue in the o ring with fletch tite. Once dry, I would dip the head in flat white paint and paint the center ring edge black. The White collected light, the black is great to aim with. 
I would love to have these again, this thread makes me want to go make some again, thanks guys/gals!!
I bet Barrys work great as well, been looking at them with that Hmmmmmmmmm note in my head. He uses a thin wall ring from the pic which is nice. I like to just use the thin wall ring for FITA field, anyone guess why?
Hint: unmarked round

Mike


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

> I just find them unsuited to any sort of precision marksmanship.


This is a perfectly good theory, so long as your shot itself is equally precise.  WORLDS of difference between shooting a precisely loaded cartridge and a bow. 

Which is why I always say that pins are for experts only. Sub-1300 shooters are better off using an open ring and concentrating on the shot, not aiming, since their form is the limiting factor.

John.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Skydog, I've posted this many times before, but here it is once again. The top aperture was one I started with - it's an older "Full Adjust" aperture that Lancaster (and others) used to sell with the removeable pin. I tried it with and without the pin for years. I'm not good enough to use the pin.

The bottom two are homemade apertures using a pre-tapped (10-32) metal shaft collar I bought for about a buck at the local ACE hardware store, epoxied onto a 10-32 screw. Total cost was under $2.50 and they have lasted me for over 5 years now with zero problems. I just use the 10-32 aperture holder for my sure-loc sights. 

I've seen others use these same shaft collars, but drilled and tapped for an 8-32 screw to fit standard recurve sights like the Shibuya, etc. Mine are tool-free so long as you have the 10-32 aperture holders. Just glue the two pieces together with a good epoxy, then paint them whatever color you like. I find flat black works best for most uses, but I will occasionally use the white side if the lighting conditions warrant it.

John.


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## Hoytusa84 (Jul 15, 2003)

Apparently Simon Fairweather won the gold at the Sydney Olympic with an open ring.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Yes, and Butch Johnson has used an open ring for as long as I've known him. Vic uses a pin, and IMO, he needs to remove it these days...

John.


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## TheShadowEnigma (Aug 16, 2008)

Considering the brain's natural ability to line up two circles so their centers are aligned, I don't see a good reason to have a pin. If anything, it seems to be one more thing to have to worry about. Without a pin, you put the sight on the target, and let the brain line them up.


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## XCalibre (Aug 31, 2006)

the aperture i'm using now is just the stock Shibuya red dot pin/aperture that came with the sight. though after reading the above posts, i kinda want to go back to just a circular aperture to see what'll happen

in the past i've tied both the 8mm and the 12mm Beiter sight tunnels. in the 8mm, which is what i used full time for a long while, i had the little diamond insert. the 12mm i only shot for one day, and i can't remember what insert i used. i found that the 12mm seemed just way too big for me. i could almost fit a target and a half into the aperture when shooting 90m, and i quite frankly couldn't aim with it. i didn't know where the middle of the aperture was because i couldn't center the concentric rings of the target onto the aperture, as TheShadowEnigma alluded to. that said, i have absolutely no idea how anything as large 3/4" or more, that Steve N mentioned, could have any amount of accuracy at all. maybe indoors on a single spot, but on a triple or outdoors that target gets too small for a sight ring that large to have any effect, in my opinion.


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## TheShadowEnigma (Aug 16, 2008)

Concentric rings, thank you I couldn't think of that word.


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## ScarletArrows (May 25, 2007)

*Beiter Sight tunnel*

I have been using an open ring since last year when I posted on AT about being inside and not seeing my pin and having no problem hitting the target but outside always hitting right of my target no matter how much I cranked on the sight. Turns out I was looking around my pin.  Shot traditional bows for 12 years -kinda used to looking at the target.

I started using the same beiter sight tunnels as Xcalibur mentioned earlier (yes that diamond is awesome) but I was frustrated with the amount of target I was seeing at over 40 yrds (yes yrds there isn't much FITA here in south Georgia). I began experimenting with the 12 mm tunnels and the framing kits that reduce the size of the hole through which you can see for longer distance and I must say that these apperatures are fantastic. I have improved my grouping at all distances as a result. I really like the 3mm hole in black for indoor three spot and outdoors the same 3mm hole in clear. The 4 mm clear worked pretty good for the single spot indoors but outside is way too big for me. 

Limbwalker is right (as usual) form is most important, aiming isn't. BUT your gonna aim, its natural to aim, do what helps you kill X's. If it doesn't then give the idea to your competitors, hell if you can't beat them screw with em' :wink:

The funny thing is some of the compound shooters I shoot with are discovering this same thing and have started cutting pieces of translucent plastic with holes in the center to use in their scopes, with impressive results.
If it works......


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## Jurasic Archer (May 23, 2002)

John, those look Great! I imagine it would be east to locate a fresh spot and drill & tap an 8/32 hole for those that need it. I'm headed to the hardware store dang it!
Cheers,
MG


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## Jurasic Archer (May 23, 2002)

A huge number of great archers rely on open apertrues compared to pins. I know Ed Eliason has always preffered a pin, Darrel did as well. 
Bednar always used a straight pin, (bowhunter style). 
Jay Barrs has always used large apertures for target and indoor and a thin walled smaller ring for Field (go figure).
With regard to accuracy, I have always felt way more accurate with an aperture because I can see what I am trying to hit insted of covering it. In that way, it is much easier to keep my eye on the goal instead of searching for it! On the occasion that I might use a pin, I prefer a small one so I can see as much of what I want to hit as possible. I try to make the pin disappear in the middle if possible. I have never done well with a big huge pin covering what I am aiming at. I do know of a few people that prefer it, but my eye/brain combo just can't deal with it!! 

Cheers,
MG


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Mike, the reason I started making those is that I was losing the thin ringed aperture indoors. I focus on the target, not the aperture, and when I would look "through" the aperture indoors, sometimes I could hardly tell where it was. So, being familiar with shaft collars, I figured I could try making a thicker aperture and see if it worked. It worked perfectly indoors, and to my delight it worked very well outdoors too. So I just stuck with it. That 1/4" I.D. size at my sight radius seems to strike a nice balance between being small enough for accuracy but large enough to allow me to keep my focus on the shot, not on aiming.

Like you, I can't "cover up" the spot I want to hit without poor results. I have shot traditional bows without sights for so long that I'm just used to focusing my eyes on the spot I want to hit. The open ring allows me to do just that. If I need to aim off, I just focus on the edge of a color and put the aperture around that spot. 

ACE Hardware - My "other" archery shop 

John.


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## Hoytusa84 (Jul 15, 2003)

John you are making me convert to open ring which I am doing right now! I am trying to kill the pin in the center of the aperture with a knife :wink: But the id is slightly more than 1/4" can I stuff cut arrow bit in it?


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

More than 1/4" is fine. The better the archer, the smaller the aperture is my rule of thumb. You just have to be honest with yourself about where the balance of your focus is during the shot. Some elite level archers are so good at executing each shot that they can afford a very small aperture or even a pin. Most of us cannot. 

I started out one of my students with an aperture I affectionately called the "life saver." It was a huge metal shaft collar with IIRC a 1/2" inside diameter. He had been using a pin, and was taking 10-14 seconds to execute each shot because all of his focus was on aiming. He swore up and down that he would never be able to hit anything with that life-saver aperture. But I insisted and he went along. Within two weeks, he had shot a personal best score indoors and was simply amazed that he could shoot tiny groups with that great big ring. Meanwhile, we got his shot sequence down from an avg. of 12 seconds to less than 8.

Remember, the center of any circle is still the same size 

John.


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## Hoytusa84 (Jul 15, 2003)

Yeah John I get what you mean. Can't accept the fact that I am only a low 1200 shooter and still trying to copy what the top archers are using. I guess I have to accept it now. Tomorrow I will have a go with the open ring and see how well my scores are taking care of themselves.


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## arrow1347 (Mar 21, 2003)

*pins*

you people are great salesmen, i've been telling archers this for 45years. still got lots of rings left. barry


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## arrow1347 (Mar 21, 2003)

*fita pins*



arrow1347 said:


> you people are great salesmen, i've been telling archers this for 45years. still got lots of rings left. barry


pics of fita rings


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## Radman (Sep 19, 2003)

You want it big enough to see all of the gold and a little of the red on the closest and biggest target you shoot. If all you can see is gold, you do not know where you are in it. Your mind will center a circle inside a circle.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

> accept the fact that I am only a low 1200 shooter and still trying to copy what the top archers are using. I guess I have to accept it now.


You're not the only one... :embara:

If most ametuer archers would accept where they are in their ability and level of training and plan accordingly, they would feel less stress and be much happier with their results. Understanding yourself is the first step to success. Most archers are too busy trying to be someone they are not.

My favorite are the ones who shoot less than 200 arrows/week and then get upset when they don't shoot scores like the USAT members. What do they expect?

I used to tell my students (until they got tired of hearing it) "Know your average and shoot your average." Meaning, if you are honest with yourself and understand what your capabilities are, then perform to that level in competition, you are successful no matter where you rank.

I'll get off my soapbox now... 

Good luck.

P.S. - Radman, I'd go a few rings bigger than that for most folks. But that's just me.

John.


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## Hoytusa84 (Jul 15, 2003)

John tried the open ring today. Problem with me is that I tried to put the gold in the dead center of the ring!!! Do I have to do that or do I just put the gold anywhere in the ring and I am good to release? A couple of shots where the gold was at the 12 o'clock of the ring and my arrows still went into the gold at 70m. I think I was making a mistake in that few shots or am I? Thanks!


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## TheShadowEnigma (Aug 16, 2008)

Hoytusa84 said:


> John tried the open ring today. Problem with me is that I tried to put the gold in the dead center of the ring!!! Do I have to do that or do I just put the gold anywhere in the ring and I am good to release? A couple of shots where the gold was at the 12 o'clock of the ring and my arrows still went into the gold at 70m. I think I was making a mistake in that few shots or am I? Thanks!


The gold does not have to be dead center in the ring. Don't force yourself to consciously aim with the open sight. Concentrate on the gold, and just place the sight on the target. Your mind will line it up. That's how I do it anyways.

And I agree limbwalker. A lot of people want to be able to walk on and be Olympic material in a week. Personally, I wouldn't want to be told to shoot my average though. I like to always set my goal +1 from my last time I shot. Sometimes I can, sometimes I can't. But when I can, and I'm consistent, I then set my goal +1. That way I always have a realistic goal that I know I can achieve and strive for.

Of course I'm not saying getting to the Olympics one day isn't a goal


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## Hoytusa84 (Jul 15, 2003)

Well I supposed that's how an open ring should work. Thanks! Will be focusing on expansion tmr and let the sight ring do its job.


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## LoveMyHoyt (Nov 29, 2008)

TheShadowEnigma said:


> The gold does not have to be dead center in the ring. Don't force yourself to consciously aim with the open sight. Concentrate on the gold, and just place the sight on the target. Your mind will line it up.


Since I don't have a coach, it took me a while to figure this out. Don't concentrate on putting the ring on the gold - focus on looking at the gold THROUGH the ring. Kind of like looking through a paper towel tube. It can wander around within the ring, but your mind will line up the concentric circles when you shoot. 
And someone mentioned painting one side of the ring (or aperture in my case) white and keeping one side black. I painted one side white when I suddenly found myself not being able to see it against the poorly lit target. I painted it the next day with a white paint marker from a craft store.
Hope this helps someone.


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## FrayAdjacent (Oct 20, 2008)

I find myself focusing through the sight ring when I aim. My best shots are when I get the sight ring on the target then focus through it on the target itself.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

If you cannot hold the gold in the center of the aperture, then you are either being blown around by the wind, or you are not holding steady enough due to lack of training or too much draw weight or both. Most world class archers do not see visible movement in their aperture/pin unless the wind is blowing them around. However, many ametuers have never seen a steady pin/aperture. Begs the question why? 

Here's what you have to decide for yourself - is your sight picture affecting your shot cycle? If so, then you really need to fix this problem first. Train more so that you can handle the weight you are shooting (SPT's anyone?), or shoot less weight, or develop your form so that you are in proper line to be able to manage the draw weight, or all three.

My simple solution for students who are noticeably slowing down their shot cycle (aiming is taking too much of their focus) is to have them use a larger aperture. The larger the aperture, the less visible the motion in your sight picture, and the less distracted you become. 

Go as big as you need to so that you are no longer conscious of aiming and you are completely focused on your shot cycle. Remember, the center of any circle is still the same size... 

Once you have developed your strength or found a bow you can handle, then you MAY be able to reduce the diameter of the aperture.

How does one know that they are aiming too much? Video yourself shooting blank bale at approx. 10 feet. Do this several times and time the shot from start to finish. Then figure out what the average length of each shot cycle is. Then go outside on a target and do the same. On a calm day, the shot cycle should be reasonably close to the blank bale at 10 feet. If it is not, then you are changing your focus to aiming (aiming too hard) and you need to work on some things. 

The larger aperture is how I brought one student's shot cycle down from an average of about 13 seconds to about 8 seconds within a week. Meanwhile, we worked on alignment and other issues. When he was ready, we reduced the size of the aperture from 1/2" inside diameter to 3/8" inside diameter. After a year or so, we tried 1/4" inside diameter, but he was never really ready for that so he stayed with the 3/8" ring.

This is one way to skin the cat that has worked well for me. Many, many folks will tell you to let the gold "float" around in the aperture while you execute your shot. I guess you can do that, but I don't like that explanation. Hard for a student to know how much "floating" is acceptable. I'd rather removed the visible distraction by increasing the size of the aperture while at the same time starting the archer on a steady diet of SPT's that will allow them to control the bow better. An archer that is truly training (not just practicing) and shooting the appropriate draw weight for their physical ability should be able to reach a point where the sight ring is very steady on the target. I know from my own experience that when I train properly, my aperture does not move at all once I settle on the gold. But that requires a lot of training and dicipline. If you can get to this point though, the rewards are pretty great.

John.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Oh, and Barry, that aperture works very well. Easy to see on the target and it allowed me to focus even more on my shot becasue there was no question where the aperture was. I may very well use it this weekend at A&M.

John.


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## caspian (Jan 13, 2009)

limbwalker said:


> This is a perfectly good theory, so long as your shot itself is equally precise.


I don't see how a sight that offers less, not more, accuracy can possibly help the process. with a pin, I *know* my aim was good or bad - anything else is me.

if suffering from target panic then fine, and if you genuinely prefer the aperture then fine too. in the meantime, there's no way the pin can be *less* accurate - and potentially more.


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## TheShadowEnigma (Aug 16, 2008)

caspian said:


> I don't see how a sight that offers less, not more, accuracy can possibly help the process. with a pin, I *know* my aim was good or bad - anything else is me.
> 
> if suffering from target panic then fine, and if you genuinely prefer the aperture then fine too. in the meantime, there's no way the pin can be *less* accurate - and potentially more.


See aperture is not less accurate. I know when my aim is dead on and when my aim isn't. It's the same as when I throw a baseball. If the baseball flies off in a random direction then where I intended, I know if it was a bad throw or if my mind wandered. I know that if I am aiming, my sight will line up perfectly with the center, and if I miss it is because of my form.

When it comes down to it, though I prefer aperture because I like seeing my target, neither are "less accurate." It's just a matter of what you train with and what feels more comfortable. Like I know that if I started using a pin I'd move the bow ever so slightly so I could see the center, because subconsciously I want to see what I'm aiming at. However, if you like the pin, then I say keep on using it. It's all about having fun right? Both are equally accurate in my mind, it's just a matter of which is better for you.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

> I don't see how a sight that offers less, not more, accuracy can possibly help the process.


My experience has been different. Unless a beginning or intermediate archer is somehow superhuman, the finer the sight pin/ring, the more their focus will shift to aiming, and not shooting. For recurve at least, this is not a good thing, and will result in lower scores, regardless of the potential "accuracy" of their aiming point. This is not that complicated. When an archer who has not yet perfected their form and shot sequence begins to focus on aiming, it affects their ability to execute a proper shot - which will affect the accuracy a WHOLE lot more than whether their pin is on the 10 or 9 ring...

There are always exceptions to the rule, and you may well be one of them. However, I've yet to see an ametuer archer whose shot sequence isn't negatively affected by decreasing the size of the ring (or pin) to the point where they are consciously aiming. Recurve archery is not an aiming sport except at the highest levels (1300-1320+). Compound is another matter.

I've probably used this analogy 100 times, but I'll say it again... Imagine shooting benchrest rifles with two weapons side by side. Both are zeroed in, but one is using precisely hand-loaded ammo and the other is using loads that had powder charges that vary by several grains per round. The rifle with the hand loads has iron sights, while the other has a high quality scope with crosshairs. Which do you think would be more accurate? 

In other words, if you don't load the cartridge exactly the same every time (i.e. execute a proper shot sequence with the recurve), it won't really matter how precise you can aim. It goes back to the principle of the lowest common denominator, and in this case, it is always the archer's ability to repeat good shots. The size of the aiming point matters little until the archer can achieve a high level of consistency from shot to shot. And if an archer's focus is on their sight and not the proper execution of their shot, then I can almost guarantee you the results won't be good. At least, not for long. This is why you see a lot of ametuer archers start out well in an event, then eventually tank in the end. Their focus is in the wrong place. Meanwhile, those who can maintain their focus on form throughout the event usually look fresh and even stronger at the end of the round. I see it every time I attend an event.

John.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

One thing I think many archers don't realize (but most good coaches do) is that you "build" a good archer through a developmental process that involves a lot of steps. Too often, I see archers try to skip steps and focus on shooting top level scores with high-end equipment just like the elite archers use. I guess that will always happen, but working with a good coach for a long period is the best way to develop an archer for the long term. A good coach will see the limiting factors in an archer's performance long before the archer will. Most archers want to focus on equipment and scores, while good coaches will focus on developing proper form (a long process in itself) and building strength, endurance and mental focus. It is often a give and take relationship that takes time for the archer to understand that their physical abilities are the most important part of the process. So many archers I know would rather spend time shopping for that new arrow, aperture, finger sling, etc. than doing SPT's in their basement for 1/2 hour each day. These are the things that ultimately seperate those who win from those who don't. 

The reason I bring this up is that it crosses my mind every time we have one of these "great equipment debates." It is fun and often educational to discuss all this neat gear we get to play with, but I think that it leads many new archers to believe that equipment is where you go to improve your scores...

I know, I know, broken record... 

John.


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## Archery Ang (Apr 24, 2006)

limbwalker said:


> One thing I think many archers don't realize (but most good coaches do) is that you "build" a good archer through a developmental process that involves a lot of steps. Too often, I see archers try to skip steps and focus on shooting top level scores with high-end equipment just like the elite archers use. I guess that will always happen, but working with a good coach for a long period is the best way to develop an archer for the long term. A good coach will see the limiting factors in an archer's performance long before the archer will. Most archers want to focus on equipment and scores, while good coaches will focus on developing proper form (a long process in itself) and building strength, endurance and mental focus. It is often a give and take relationship that takes time for the archer to understand that their physical abilities are the most important part of the process. So many archers I know would rather spend time shopping for that new arrow, aperture, finger sling, etc. than doing SPT's in their basement for 1/2 hour each day. These are the things that ultimately seperate those who win from those who don't.
> 
> The reason I bring this up is that it crosses my mind every time we have one of these "great equipment debates." It is fun and often educational to discuss all this neat gear we get to play with, but I think that it leads many new archers to believe that equipment is where you go to improve your scores...
> 
> ...


This is all SO true. You have to put in the time, especially with recurve. Ain't no shortcuts. I have a hard time with that myself.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

One final thought -

Many recurve archers are using the wrong aperture/pin for their ability and don't even realize it. This is a often overlooked piece of equipment that has the potential to seriously affect form and as a result - scores.

If you think about it, the body only has three reference points when shooting a bow - the grip, the tab and the sight. These three thing must be evaluated closely for how well they fit the archer and contribute to their success. All three must be customized for each individual archer for them to reach their potential. 

John.


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## Foreverlabs (Sep 27, 2008)

*Spt*

John,
Pardon my ignorance, but what are SPT's? I assume it's probably something like Strength Performance Training, but that's only a guess.
Thanks,
Jim


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## Hoytusa84 (Jul 15, 2003)

John not sucking up to you but my timing dropped from 8 sec to 4 sec every shot. 9 arrows each end and usually 6 in gold 3 in the 8s. I would say the open aperture works, at least for me. Thanks.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

hoytusa, glad it seems to be working for you. I would occasionally switch back and forth to confirm your results and make sure you use video whenever you can. No lying to yourself when the tape is rolling! 

SPT's are specific physical training (a.k.a. special physical torture) promoted by coach LEE. They are easily found on his website www.kslinternationalarchery.com and pretty straightforward. They help an archer develop strength and endurance and are an essential part of serious training.

John.


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## Xcreekarchery1 (Aug 7, 2007)

i dont think i could ever shoot a pin. ive always shot open apeture with great results. i like the shibuys stock one for outdoors, although i may go to a lancaster large and take the pin out cause there really really good. indoors i use an ambo but its to clunky for outdoors.
if you watch the last best method video that came out don rabska was using like 2 inch pvc rings to start kids out with. you want to focus on process and youl have good results.
relate this to rifle shooting, if you have a scope with crosshairs you sit there and aim and aim and aim. if you are using varible circles drilled in plexi glass like on may target rifles you just like up the circles and everything is smoother, you dont fight it you just go


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## TheShadowEnigma (Aug 16, 2008)

limbwalker said:


> SPT's are specific physical training (a.k.a. special physical torture) promoted by coach LEE.


Hahaha!! Yeah I tried doing those for a while. I just decided to get myself a target and commit myself to shooting every day I'm home. Much easier to do


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## Steve N (Apr 27, 2004)

I agree with John's reasoning regarding a larger aperture. At 18M indoors, I can put a golf tee in the target butt, and shoot gold size groups consistently. Same distance, change nothing but put a 40cm target in place of the tee, and my groups open up to the 7 ring, with some fliers outside that. The problem? I concentrate more on making my aperture and the target rings concentric, than on form. Consequently my groups open up because my form falls apart.

I was told to concentrate on the target, not the sight alignment. A golf tee only takes up a tiny part of my aperture. The gold on 40cm at 18M takes up most of my aperture. I spend too much time aiming, not on form.

Anyway, thats what works for me.


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## arrow1347 (Mar 21, 2003)

*rings*

made a dozen more, get them while there hot. flo red & green , also new clear(light blue) and flo purpule for peewee.


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## archangel86 (Jan 18, 2009)

I was just wondering, because I myself used an open aperture for the past 3 years, how do you aim in the wind with it? I keep trying to aim at where i want it to go but some how I end up making a daft shot most of the time.

I've just got one of those Titan sightpins and it has a .03" fiber in it. I find it useful because now my arrows go roughly where i point them and I dont make as much daft shots anymore. But I do still prefer the open aperture over this. I was wondering if there's any compromise?


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## Stans_Recurve (Dec 4, 2006)

As a comment from a strictly amateur archer, recognizing not to focus on aiming took some time. For some reason I have yet to truly understand, focusing on my bow arm/hand relaxation with a ring sight gives the best results. Having a deep relaxed hook, low shoulders, keeping the draw elbow up, and a consistent anchor are important, but the real key in my case is focusing on the bow arm and hand while allowing the sight picture to 'happen'. 

Maybe after a couple more years of practice, that will change. For now, I need a ring sight for non-focused aiming. Much like a rifle sight, I thought the click adjustments on (somewhat expensive) bow sights were for wind compensation.


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## Canjapan2003 (Jun 3, 2006)

I took the center pin out of my shibuya small (7mm)aperture sight ring but found it hard to see in a typhon . I found a rubber grommit that fits the OUTSIDE diameter and safety wired it in place. Only problem is at 30m on 80cm face all I can see is the gold so at that distance can see the pin being useful


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## arrow1347 (Mar 21, 2003)

*rings*

try one of my rings, they work at all distances.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Barry, your ring worked well for me this morning. Shot a 641 double-70 at the TX shootout qualifying round, despite the wind and children sliding down the artificial snow behind the targets! 

Thanks again.

John.


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## Radman (Sep 19, 2003)

Canjapan2003 said:


> I took the center pin out of my shibuya small (7mm)aperture sight ring but found it hard to see in a typhon . I found a rubber grommit that fits the OUTSIDE diameter and safety wired it in place. Only problem is at 30m on 80cm face all I can see is the gold so at that distance can see the pin being useful


Yep, I also have a rubber grommit around my sight. It helps the old eyes see the ring. As far as seeing only gold at 30, read my first reply to this thread.


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## TheShadowEnigma (Aug 16, 2008)

Stans_Recurve said:


> As a comment from a strictly amateur archer, recognizing not to focus on aiming took some time. For some reason I have yet to truly understand, focusing on my bow arm/hand relaxation with a ring sight gives the best results. Having a deep relaxed hook, low shoulders, keeping the draw elbow up, and a consistent anchor are important, but the real key in my case is focusing on the bow arm and hand while allowing the sight picture to 'happen'.
> 
> Maybe after a couple more years of practice, that will change. For now, I need a ring sight for non-focused aiming. Much like a rifle sight, I thought the click adjustments on (somewhat expensive) bow sights were for wind compensation.


I agree with you. It is definitely a juggling act getting everything consistent while keeping your mind off from aiming. That's just a part of the fun =D


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## Xcreekarchery1 (Aug 7, 2007)

arrow1347 said:


> and flo purpule for peewee.


Ahhhh how. Could you not love pewee, I wana see this sexy purple apeture on his bow  :secret:


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## arrow1347 (Mar 21, 2003)

*ring*

good shooting john, a lot more archers should try my ring, and see there scores improve. made another doz. thanks john . i'm waiting for a responce from peewee


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Saw PeeWee today for the first time since I was about to walk on to the competition venue in Athens. He hasn't changed a bit, and who would want him to? I'm not surprised he's asked for purple one! 

John.


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## Dadpays (Oct 11, 2006)

*Gave it a try*



limbwalker said:


> Steve, the work is already done for you if you buy a $1.50 metal shaft collar from the hardware store (ACE usually has them in stock). They are already drilled and tapped for a 10-32 (compound) screw, or you can drill and tap them for the standard "recurve" 8-32 screw. *I just epoxy in the threaded rod or screw and have 10-32 aperture holders for my sure-loc's*. Works great and has never let me down. The shaft collars are nice and thick so you can see them in all lighting conditions (indoors and outdoors).
> 
> So even if you don't have a workshop or tools, you can still make these apertures in several sizes...


Limbwalker, Where did you get a 10-32 aperture holder for a Sure-Loc? I've seen 8-32, but not 10-32. My 12 yr old son uses a large ring aperture (with pin) from LAS, and since we have been in the process of changing some things, I decided I would have him give the "ring" a try. I knocked out the pin and his first words were, "that won't work, I won't know where to aim". I said to just try it and we'll see. I set up a 40 cm single face at 30 yards and had him shoot 10 arrows - 7 were gold! Pulled them and shot again, same thing! He shot a few more ends and then we moved to 18m. I had him shoot all 10 and 9 were gold! He just shook his head and laughed. I may have him use this setup at the state field shoot in a couple of weeks just for the heck of it. BTW, he shoots *fingers* on a Barnsdale compound ( an NAA outcast! LOL) Also, I think a ball end rod would work nicely as a ring aperture - pre-made and available in both 8-32 and 10-32 from MSC Industrial. Much more professional than cobbling something together from ACE Hardware, but twice the price - $5.00. LOL I guess quality isn't as cheap as it used to be. Hope to meet you sometime


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Dadpays, I'm sure they are still available. All the compound Sure-loc sights use 10-32 screws. I used to be able to get them at the Sure Loc trailer at NFAA Indoor Nationals, or the Lancaster trailer. If you call Lancaster's, I'm sure you can get them there.



> I knocked out the pin and his first words were, "that won't work, I won't know where to aim".


Now, where have I heard that before! We do kids such a disservice by starting them off with a pin... IMO.



> pre-made and available in both 8-32 and 10-32 from MSC Industrial. Much more professional than cobbling something together from ACE Hardware


Hey, what are you trying to say? ha, ha. 

But I liked the reaction that folks had when they looked at my aperture and tried to figure out where I bought it. Especially when they read the stamped "1/4" China" on the back of it! ha, ha.

John.


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## InKYfromSD (Feb 6, 2004)

I've made a few apertures using shaft collars and stainlesss allthread from a real hardware store (it has a basement!) and they've worked well. Yesterday evening I found myself aiming too hard. The aperture is a 5/16 with a size 10 thread. An 8-32 allthread works just fine, secured with my second favorite tool (JB Weld). I'm headed over to the store at lunch to find a larger collar and see if I can drill/tap it for 8-32 without having to file a flat spot on the side.

I dipped one aperture in white KILZ and then "painted" one side with a yellow flourescent highlighter (alcohol based) and it really shows up well outside. The other side is flat black.


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## Hoytusa84 (Jul 15, 2003)

I seriously see an improvement in my score using the ring. Last weekend's trial my score increased by 30 points in a full FITA round and it was windy. Love it!


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Hoytusa,

Just remember that everyone goes through a bit of a "honeymoon" period with any new piece of equipment. It's not uncommon to see an immediate improvement in scores from something as simple as switching doinkers. Can't explain it, but when an archer just thinks something is going to work for them, it usually does. See how you are shooting with it in a month, then re-evaluate. Chances are it's going to help you in the long run though.

John.


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## Hoytusa84 (Jul 15, 2003)

John I know what you meant we call it NPS (New Product Sydrome) here. I will try it out for ALAP.


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## arrow1347 (Mar 21, 2003)

*ring*

john , what kind of score did you shoot , 641 at 70m not bad, how did you do at the other distances, 90m-50m- 30m. did you win?


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Barry, it was a double-70 ranking round, followed by an O.R. on Sunday. I had a bye 1st round, shot a 108 second round (won) and then fell off the wagon with a lousy 101 for my third round match. Ted Holland shot well against me and moved on. Wasn't the fault of the aperture, I just didn't consider the wind enough until it was too late. Guess I'm a little rusty these days, but no more than I've prepared, I was actually quite pleased overall. Never thought I'd manage 6th in the ranking round. Thanks again for the aperture. I look forward to trying it indoors.

John.


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## cc46 (Jan 22, 2005)

*Tried a ring*

well, I have to say I have just tried a ring this weekend, and although I am not very well conditioned right now there were a few ends of brilliance..57, 55s and a lot in the low 40s at 50m.
I decided to try just the ring because of this thread and because I wear glasses. I'll say with a ring you can focus on the gold and consentrate on shot cycle. If you set up well and pay attention to alignment and expansion at a steady pace you will do well. It eliminates agonizing over aiming and the destruction of the shot cycle when you cannot stay in the middle of gold. It's not a game of perfect but a ring has potential to improve your scores. 

Just my first step...try again soon..keep the thread going, anyone else try?


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

> It eliminates agonizing over aiming and the destruction of the shot cycle when you cannot stay in the middle of gold.


Well put.

IMO, starting a JOAD recurver or someone new to the sport with a pin or an aperture ring smaller than 3/8" is completely counterproductive. It is one reason we see so much poor alignment, shaking, sawing off the arrow rest, 14 second holds and shots though the clicker. All aiming, no control. Wrong focus.

John.


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## Xcreekarchery1 (Aug 7, 2007)

limbwalker said:


> Well put.
> 
> IMO, starting a JOAD recurver or someone new to the sport with a pin or an aperture ring smaller than 3/8" is completely counterproductive. It is one reason we see so much poor alignment, shaking, sawing off the arrow rest, 14 second holds and shots though the clicker. All aiming, no control. Wrong focus.
> 
> John.


that is why i like don rabskas idea for starting kids out in his last video. they used like 2-3 inch pvc on a taped rod. it really teaches them not to aim but to focus on form


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## MichaelBrock (Jan 12, 2017)

I am making a habit of dragging old threads out of the basement. 

I find myself having issues with the pin in our cheap beginner student sights. I think that I am trying to look around it. I am definitely going to try making my own aperture sight (probably out of pvc). In this thread, when discussing aperture size, it is stated that the aperture should be sufficient to contain the entire gold area with some room to spare. Can this be achieved by changing the distance of the ring from the eye by moving the sight itself? That adjustment isn't something I see mentioned here very often (or ever).


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## arrow1347 (Mar 21, 2003)

running a special on rings right now. 2 for $35


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