# Start hot or cold to sett up a hinge release? Is there theory or just opinion?



## Shogun1

It didn't take all that long for the focus to change from whether the process was right or wrong to understanding the analytical thought behind the process.

The theory behind the method of learning to shoot a hinge.

Manly posted the following: 
"Good stuff Shogun1!
I see you start at the other extreme when setting up a hinge. 
Is there a theory behind starting from hot and cooling it off till you find the right spot?
I must say, starting too cold, and finding the same place would seem less stressful.
Knowing the arrow is not going to fire when drawing seems less scary than knowing it will probably go off while drawing.
Not saying your method doesn't work, just trying to understand the reasoning, or is it 6 of one way, 1/2 a dozen of the other?"

Yes. There is a theory -- and it is based in ISD (Instructional System Design). And that theory is applied to address both mechanical (physical) issues and mental (fear, anticipation, distraction) issues.

Let's examine the evidence.
A. There is a large body of material available that addresses how to "correctly" shoot a hinge release.
B. There is an even larger body of material that challenges the notion of what constitutes "correctly."
C. The proposition at hand is that using a hinge release (a trigger less release) can help an archer overcome a variety of maladies that result in lesser performance than the archer believes that he is capable of producing.
D. The usual complaints center on essentially two issues -- fear of premature activation (a well founded fear -- just ask any of those with fat lips or missing teeth) or not being able to force the release to fire (thus inducing all kinds of tension and movement -- which results in not being able to keep the pin on target).

With the evidence in mind -- apply the theory of ISD. Start with the end in mind; analyze the problem and the process as well as the current methodologies used to approach the problem. Then map out an instructional approach that gets to the end via a different approach than the current methodologies. But the key is that the processes in the method must be developed with precise and limited goals.

Examine the process that I laid out.

Where does it start? With picking a release and a grip that the archer would use. There is a lot of material that delves into the physiology of the bow hand -- and the grip on the bow -- but how much is out there dealing with the much more complex issues dealing with the draw hand?

I argue making the archer pick either a hook (think Larry Wise) or a brass knuckle (think Bernie Pellerite).

Why start there? Because that decision carries implications for the bow's draw length and D-loop length as it sets up putting the archer in a position from which he can execute a shot later. Bone on bone form, low relaxed bow side shoulder, consistent repeatable anchor references, holding weight loaded onto back muscles (draw side forearm in line with the arrow), ...

According to John Dudley, draw length matters. He argues that archers at the top of their game are working DL tweaks of less than 1/16 inch. But -- bows don't come with DL adjustments that fine -- cams come in 1" or in .5" adjustments. Thus the art of tuning the bow by twisting cables and strings or adjusting D-loop length.

With two requisites set -- the backside (the release and grip) squared away and the frontside (the combination of the DL and D-loop length set) -- the next step is leaning a drawing process that starts with hook-up and ends with a stabilized sight picture -- that is the basis for shooting later.

So then, what is the second step? Learning the draw and the transition into a relaxed draw hand at anchor with a release set as cold as it goes.

What is the discrete objective here? -- Actually, there are several. 
Learn to load the thumb and the middle finger -- while keeping the middle finger as relaxed as possible.
Learn to un-hook the thumb by using the index finger.
Learn to allow the hand to go to a relaxed position

The purpose? Again there are several. Put the archer in a position from which it is possible to fire the release with a micro movement of the draw side elbow -- without requiring manipulation of any of the complex muscle systems in the forearm. Teach him how to transition from drawing to relaxed so that the firing process will not induce movement of the sight.

The next step is putting the bow and release away while the archer learns the motion that will activate the release.

The specific step you've asked about was the notion of setting the release speed. I advocate going hot -- too hot -- and backing into it. Again, the issue comes down to why?

If the release is to fire based on a micro-movement of the draw side elbow, then the sear at stabilized anchor and aiming MUST be right on the ragged edge of tripping.

Thus, the process that I use helps the archer to find that ragged edge. But NOTE, I do NOT call this set learning to shoot the hinge. It is setting the speed of the hinge.

Note that I start with rather gross adjustments to find the setting that allows the archer to get to full draw. I warn the archer to expect the release to fire inadvertently, and I teach him to know what to do about it. (And you are right -- this is the most apprehension building step in the process. But if he's got an appropriate draw weight, he can draw while keeping the business end pointed at the bale. I.E. No sky drawing. And if he anticipates that the release will fire, he won't pull in line with his teeth.)

But getting to full draw with pressure still on the thumb peg and middle finger is not the position from which the archer will eventually execute the shot. Again, I warn him to expect the release to fire during the transition -- and what to do about it if it does.

I know that the archer needs to be able to abort the shot. Thus he needs to be able to let down. So, I have him keep cooling the release off till he can.

But notice that the initial adjustments to the speed were rather gross -- full turns. But subsequent adjustments are only 1/4 turn.

So, why do it this way? This method allows me to help the archer find that ragged edge AND have the confidence that he can execute his entire shot process including the ability to let down without inadvertently firing the release. With that confidence, he can draw, settle through anchor, and start to focus on the desired point of impact without clouding his thoughts with fear that the release is going to fire. With that confidence, he also KNOWS that once he commits to the shot, that the release won't freeze.


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## montigre

Very interesting read, Shogun. I'm going to have to try this with my backup release to see which method produces the desired end result of being able to confidently draw, anchor, and execute with the least amount of time and angst spent finding the precise location of that "edge". 

I just taught a new shooter to use a hinge using the cold to warm method and it took 3 full sessions for him to feel _somewhat_ comfortable actually shooting--he is still far from being confident. If this addresses the anxiety of using a hinge while systematically building a safe and confident foundation, I'd be willing to support it. Thanks for sharing this.


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## Shogun1

Another forum member questioned the underlying premise essentially asking whether the "theory" was all just opinion anyway.

That post is no longer here, but it is a valid question --- and ultimately was the reason that I started this as a separate thread. -- so those valid questions could be addressed without continuing to hijack Padgett's thread.

What follows is my response to that question.

No. The theory is in the development of the ISD process as it relates to instruction -- a process of imparting knowledge from one person to another. 

Are there opinions involved -- sure. My opinion is reflected in my analysis. My opinion is reflected in the development of a process to address what my opinionated analysis identified as shortcomings in current teaching methodologies.

And as I clearly stated to Padgett, my opinion is reflected in my assessment of the types of students that a teacher might encounter. And my opinion is also reflected in the idea that if what the teacher is doing isn't working that that he has two options -- the first (and non-productive) is to complain about the student. The second (and in my opinion is the mark of a mature instructor) is to search for and implement a means to achieve the instructional goal -- to educate the student. In this case, the educational goal is to effect a behavioral modification. 

So, again -- No! Opinion is not theory. Theory is not necessarily fact either. But theory can certainly inform the development of opinions.

Consider the definitions of theory below. And then consider what I have posted. I used a coherent group of tested propositions collectively known as instructional systems design (see definition 1 below). Then I articulated a particular conception or view of something to be done and the method of doing it (see definition 5) based on my application of the theory of ISD.



noun, plural theories.
1.
a coherent group of tested general propositions, commonly regarded as correct,that can be used as principles of explanation and prediction for a class of phenomena
2.
a proposed explanation whose status is still conjectural and subject to experimentation, in contrast to well-established propositions that are regarded as reporting matters of actual fact.
3.
Mathematics. a body of principles, theorems,or the like, belonging to one subject
4.
the branch of a science or art that deals with its principles or methods, as distinguished from its practice.
5.
a particular conception or view of something to be done or of the method of doing it; a system of rules or principles.
6.
contemplation or speculation.
7.
guess or conjecture.


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## Shogun1

montigre said:


> Very interesting read, Shogun. I'm going to have to try this with my backup release to see which method produces the desired end result of being able to confidently draw, anchor, and execute with the least amount of time and angst spent finding the precise location of that "edge".
> 
> I just taught a new shooter to use a hinge using the cold to warm method and it took 3 full sessions for him to feel _somewhat_ comfortable actually shooting--he is still far from being confident. If this addresses the anxiety of using a hinge while systematically building a safe and confident foundation, I'd be willing to support it. Thanks for sharing this.


You are most welcome. Let me know what you discover.


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## bowfisher

I guess your students have a better draw than I do. Been shooting a hinge for 3 years now and a set screw backed out of my Longhorn a few days ago. My shots were going off easier than normal but I thought my engine was just running smoother. Then I smacked myself in the mouth,
didn't guit know what happened so I done it again before looking things over and finding that set screw. Ive seen guys on the line that have shot for years bust there self in the mouth once in a while. I guess most of us just draw our bows wrong around here so we"ll just keep starting cold and working our way hotter.


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## Mahly

Thanx for the explanation.
I suppose in a way the set up I learned from Padgett's article in reality kind of does both
It starts too cold, but quickly gets slightly too hot, then it's just a very small adjustment colder to perfect it (This is my interpretation of how I read it. If inaccurate, Padgett, please correct me).
I see it as 2 paths that meet before getting to the same end result. As such, I see both being effective. 
Speaking as someone who recently got back into shooting a hinge and unlearning the bad things I learned, I can say starting too hot SOUNDS scarier. So I'm thankful there is more than 1 path to get there.


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## Shogun1

Bowfisher,

Well -- the presumption is that your gear is well maintained. 

Same problem occurs if the d-loop breaks in the draw cycle doesn't it?

What is the difference in the D-loop wearing out and your release losing a screw? In either case, your equipment needs to be maintained, doesn't it?

Analyse the symptom to discover the underlying problem and address the problem. Don't just put a bandaid on the system.


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## bowfisher

The students I see wanting to learn a hinge is nervous about one anyway. You can tell them to draw away form there face and if it goes off midway back, most hit themselves in the mouth. IMO its not a good way to start them out.


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## multi-target

Tagged


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## SonnyThomas

What I've found with those starting with a hinge and me in there; Death grip on the hinge whether through fear or not wanting the hinge go off and too much draw weight.
Doug Springer (Stanislawski); "Turn your bow down so it is very manageable."

Draw weight reduced, out of the picture so to speak, and one can concentrate on the hinge, grip, starting position (cold/warm/hot), anchor, relaxing, bone to bone and whatever. All in place, all going well, draw weight then can be added until arriving at a suitable draw weight and more than likely, for most of us, less than with any other type of release, thumb or index release.


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## montigre

bowfisher said:


> I guess your students have a better draw than I do. Been shooting a hinge for 3 years now and a set screw backed out of my Longhorn a few days ago. My shots were going off easier than normal but I thought my engine was just running smoother. Then I smacked myself in the mouth,
> didn't guit know what happened so I done it again before looking things over and finding that set screw. Ive seen guys on the line that have shot for years bust there self in the mouth once in a while. I guess most of us just draw our bows wrong around here so we"ll just keep starting cold and working our way hotter.


ALWAYS draw away from your face....


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## EPLC

Shogun1 said:


> ...The basic premise is that a hinge fired through back tension helps achieve a "surprise release" and avoid target panic by allowing the release process to run in the mental background while you focus on the sight picture.


If this is your basic premise, then you'd best set your release on the hot end as cold ain't getting it done. I'll stick with what Eric Griggs had to say about release settings several times in several threads since 2004. here's just one.



> I'll elaborate a little on what Dan is talking about here. To start with let me say that I strongly recommend setting a tigerless bt release with a good bit of travel. No disrespect to anyone who is successful with a tigerless bt release and doesn't shoot this way, but I would say that virtually everyone at the top who is using a pure bt release is shooting it with travel. And... If you’re shooting it with travel you cannot fire the release off back tension alone. You have to maintain back tension and that's important, but moving your hand and fingers is what makes that thing fire. The travel is important because it makes you stay active in the shot. You always keep pulling regardless of what the sight is doing. With a good bit of travel anticipation becomes a non-factor as well. For everyone who is shooting there release on the edge or have shot this in the past ask yourself this question. How many times have you been tentative with your release or had a hard time firing it in a pressure situation? Unless you’re lying to yourself this has happened to everyone who has shot a tigerless bt release set up light or with the clicker. Not to say it can't happen when you set them up with travel, but you know that you have to get after the release to make it fire so it forces you to be aggressive. I'll give you a great example of this. Nathan Brooks was in the shoot off in Vegas last year and let down after holding for a really long time. He got rid of the release in his hand and got a different one. After the fact I asked him what the deal was and he said he switched to a HEAVIER release. I was surprised at first, but when he explained it to me it made perfect sense. He was having problems getting it to fire and he knew once he switched to something with even more travel that it would force him to be aggressive to get the release to fire. I know that this isn't going to work for everyone, but the topic came up so I figured I would add my thoughts. ~ Eric Griggs, 2004


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## bowfisher

montigre said:


> ALWAYS draw away from your face....


LOL! I thought I did.


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## possum trapper

I put full moons(from zenith) in a couple of my scott hinges.for me that's how I set everything on new bows.
I take the release with me to tourneys.you can draw and execute in hotel rooms or wherever you want as long as your have it pointed in a safe direction


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## SonnyThomas

montigre said:


> ALWAYS draw away from your face....


No body told me that when I first tried a hinge. Might have saved me from picking myself up a couple of times......Still don't know how I went down and still held on to my bow. Didn't even know I was on my knees at first....


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## unclejane

SonnyThomas said:


> No body told me that when I first tried a hinge. Might have saved me from picking myself up a couple of times......Still don't know how I went down and still held on to my bow. Didn't even know I was on my knees at first....


Yepper, one of the reasons I really like a safety. And not meaning to go slightly OT, as well as really strongly dislike the reach-for-the-sky draw method. Indoors not much of a problem but a nightmare scenario for me outdoors on a course with lots of people walking around.....

Now even with my Evo or Stan, the bow is pointed at the target at all times during the draw and am drawing away from the face....

LS


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## EPLC

I'm sorry, but your assumption that the problem is within the teaching methodology and not the process has its own problems. What I believe you may have missed, or just have not accepted, is that some people have found a method that works better for them? It isn't that they haven't been taught in a manner that they might understand, it is in fact fault in the method itself, not the teaching... While I'm glad that there are folks that believe this is the best method, I'm at a loss as to why it is continually positioned as such when evidence by the truckload is available saying otherwise?


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## zenarch

unclejane said:


> Yepper, one of the reasons I really like a safety. And not meaning to go slightly OT, as well as really strongly dislike the reach-for-the-sky draw method. Indoors not much of a problem but a nightmare scenario for me outdoors on a course with lots of people walking around.....
> 
> Now even with my Evo or Stan, the bow is pointed at the target at all times during the draw and am drawing away from the face....
> 
> LS


If you rely on your safety and ignore the proper methods for drawing a bow with a BT release, you're going to end up with a fat lip sooner or later. Safeties fail sometimes and you can really get whacked when they do. But if you do practice the proper safe method of drawing, why do you need the safety in the first place. Keep the release as close as possible to the original basic hinge design and ignore the traps of added mechanics which can fail you at just the wrong time.


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## ron w

zeniths, especially the "comfort" series, are as good a hinge as a hinge can be !. I really like how compact and simplistic they are.


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## Shogun1

EPLC said:


> I'm sorry, but your assumption that the problem is within the teaching methodology and not the process has its own problems. What I believe you may have missed, or just have not accepted, is that some people have found a method that works better for them? It isn't that they haven't been taught in a manner that they might understand, it is in fact fault in the method itself, not the teaching... While I'm glad that there are folks that believe this is the best method, I'm at a loss as to why it is continually positioned as such when evidence by the truckload is available saying otherwise?




A. It is not an assumption.

B. Go back and re-read Padgett's post -- the subject was on setting up the hinge. He first started cold and tried to arrive at a desirable setting that way. Then he went too hot and backed into a setting that way.
Part of that thread included the following statements:

"Setting a hinge really slow is something that I heard about right from the start of my hinge shooting and it is something that I always hated, In the beginning i saw a bunch of guys that shot a hinge that was really fast but they drew with their thumb and index finger only and then once to anchor they would rotate the hinge and get their ring and middle finger on the hinge to compensate for the super fast setting. I never did think that this was a good idea and always avoided it like the plague, I can honestly say that it is one method of setting up a hinge that i have never tried to do."

"Montigre, I really did enjoy shooting without a peg. Now I didn't do it long enough to master it to the point where it was absolutely perfect because it birds so much but I did notice how it basically eliminates the transition feeling when you come to anchor. When using a peg there is a transition getting off the peg and makes your hand lock up. With no peg your hand stays very willing to rotate or yield with not locking up."

"So many people set them way slow on purpose and they then have to learn to shoot the hinge with a huge amount of rotation that is either generated with finger rotation or back tension rotation or extreme stretching of the hand. To me this is a lot to ask from people that are just learning and the source of their frustration. This little article that I wrote gives a look into how you can use the thumb peg to your advantage instead of just something you are holding."

C. Go back and reread my posts -- both of them at the beginning of this thread. The first was a repost from Padgett's to set a context to answer a very specific question posed by Mahly. To whit: "Is there a theory behind starting from hot and cooling it off till you find the right spot?"

So the second post is a response to the theory behind the process articulated specifically to setting the "speed" of the hinge. True, it contains additional information because jumping directly to the section on setting the speed ignores the holistic theory -- address the mechanical process (which I did) and address the mental issues (which I also did).

D. What I did not say was there is ONE correct way to set up a hinge or that there was ONE correct way to fire a hinge. Nor did I say that the method was the "best" method. 

Specifically, I said, "The basic premise is that a hinge fired through back tension helps achieve a "surprise release" and avoid target panic by allowing the release process to run in the mental background while you focus on the sight picture."

What I did say was -- there is a premise that achieving a surprise release helps alleviate a number of maladies in the shot process.

E. This thread is not a debate about which method of firing a hinge release is best. This thread is about the analytical thought process behind the methodology I described.


BTW: If the method itself was, in fact, faulty, then it would not work for anyone. But the simple fact remains -- it does work. (And not just for me.)

It clearly is not the ONLY method.

As a second ancillary point, the hinge release is not really a triggerless release. The whole frame or body of the release is the "trigger" that has to rotate by some means -- finger manipulation, wrist manipulation, back tension -- or whatever. I would agree that the hinge release does not have an apparently obvious extra trigger mechanism like an index trigger or a thumb trigger release. Others will disagree with at perspective, but that's OK. If "nothing moved" the sear would never trip. In the conventional notion of a firing mechanism, the "trigger" is what trips the sear. In this case, it is the body of the release.

F. Back to the point of the thread -- the theory. My response to Mahly was incomplete because I left out a very important concept. The learning principle of "Primacy"! Note that after getting the equipment set up, the very next step -- and the first one for the archer to learn -- is the process of getting from hooked up to anchored at full draw and poised for the release to fire. Only after learning that process, should the archer embark on the step of setting the speed of the release. The point of the setting the speed is simply setting up the next part of the shot process ---FOR AN ARCHER DESIRING TO ACTIVATE THE RELEASE through back tension instead of hand manipulation.

G. To be blunt, you probably could adapt the process for folks who chose to fire the release through squeezing the fingers or rotating the hinge in some other means. How much would the process of setting up the hinge change if you did? And to the point of this thread which would be to answer Mahly's question --- would the changes you would make be based on opinion or theory? I suspect that you would argue -- theory -- and I suspect you would be right. But focus on the issue at hand, how and why would you set the speed of the release to support your chosen method of firing the release.


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## Padgett

I am so glad that these types of threads are now popping up where we are talking about how to set up a hinge, this is something that is way overlooked and to me very very very important to a beginning or advanced shooter. 

Just today I built a nice thumb peg for my longhorn that I have been thinking about for months and I had the time so I built it. As soon as I was done I went to 5 feet or so and did my hinge setup routine for a smooth moon and within minutes I had it close to my preferred speed. I shot for a while and it felt great but it was still a little off so I spent another 10 minutes tweeking the speed and then I found it and it was sweet.

For me when I get a hinge set up perfect to my speed that I enjoy shooting with it is a special thing that takes my shooting from being just ok to freaking sweet. So again I am glad that these hinge setup threads are popping up so guys can possibly for the first time get them set up properly.

I am going to put my original archery article below, it is my favorite one and my first one ever written.


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## Padgett

Hinge setup routine
Here it is the famous Hinge Setup Routine, it will allow you to skip months of suffering and frustration and take your hinge shooting career right into achieving new personal levels of accomplishments. The main thing right now that you must accept is that it is not a tweek your current speed setting routine, the hinge setup routine is a complete restart to hour hinge shooting so don’t cheat yourself and do it completely.

You are going to Love it.

Smooth moon steps:

1. Turn the moon so slow that the hinge can’t physically fire, now put the hinge in your fingers and grip it with the grip that you wish you were using. You know the perfect grip on the hinge that just feels awesome. Now since the hinge can’t fire draw the bow 5 or so times using all fingers equally including the thumb peg and feel how awesome it is to draw a bow using all fingers equally. This is so important so don’t under estimate or rush this step because we are going to set up the hinge so that you can draw the bow with this awesome feeling and safely fire the hinge without changing your fingers during the entire process.

2. Now draw back with all fingers and get to anchor and then just release the thumb pressure smoothly and do not try to fire the hinge just release the thumb pressure and that is it. Now let down and speed up the moon a little and repeat the process over and over for about 5 minutes and sooner or later when you come to anchor and release the thumb peg it will fire. Now we know where we are and we are right on the edge which is way to fast so now slow down the moon just a little and you should be able to come to anchor using all fingers during the draw cycle and then let go of the pressure on the thumb peg and the hinge hasn’t fired but it is close.

3. Hinge setup is complete

4. Over the next week or so tweek the speed very slightly until you find the perfect speed setting that allows you to draw with all fingers and fire the hinge easily using your favorite firing engine. You don’t want it to fast where you are scared of early releases and you don’t want it so slow you can’t rotate it enough to fire it, you want it just right.
Hinge setup using a clicker:

1. Turn the moon so slow that the hinge can’t physically fire, now put the hinge in your fingers and grip it with the grip that you wish you were using. You know the perfect grip on the hinge that just feels awesome. Now since the hinge can’t fire draw the bow 5 or so times using all fingers equally including the thumb peg and feel how awesome it is to draw a bow using all fingers equally. This is so important so don’t underestimate or rush this step because we are going to set up the hinge so that you can draw the bow with this awesome feeling and safely fire the hinge without changing your fingers during the entire process.

2. Now draw back with all fingers and get to anchor and then just release the thumb pressure smoothly and do not try to fire the hinge just release the thumb pressure and listen for the click do not rotate or squeeze the fingers to help getting to the click, down draw and speed up the moon and repeat the process over and over and about 5 minutes you will draw back and release the thumb pressure and hear the click.

3. I personally like to release about 75% of the thumb pressure and hear the click when starting out with a new hinge and then over a few weeks I will tweek it a little slower to the point where I can release it 100% and then hear the click.



Pm me to recieve my thoughts on aiming and my thoughts on good firing engines and anything else you would like to discuss, I am totally free and I can offer you a awesome start to hinge shooting so all you have to do is ask.
Socket Man


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## unclejane

zenarch said:


> If you rely on your safety and ignore the proper methods for drawing a bow with a BT release, you're going to end up with a fat lip sooner or later. Safeties fail sometimes and you can really get whacked when they do. But if you do practice the proper safe method of drawing, why do you need the safety in the first place.


I actually don't shoot a hinge anymore, so I'm probably no longer qualified to comment much further on this. I do acknowledge your statement here and, with respect to the hinge, you're ultimately quite right...

LS


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## EPLC

I did read them. My take on your pitch (at least in part) is to provide an improved teaching method so we can learn PBT... so then we can set our hinge properly... I'm glad it works for you and anyone else for that matter. 



> F. Back to the point of the thread -- the theory. My response to Mahly was incomplete because I left out a very important concept. The learning principle of "Primacy"! Note that after getting the equipment set up, the very next step -- and the first one for the archer to learn -- is the process of getting from hooked up to anchored at full draw and poised for the release to fire. Only after learning that process, should the archer embark on the step of setting the speed of the release. The point of the setting the speed is simply setting up the next part of the shot process ---FOR AN ARCHER DESIRING TO ACTIVATE THE RELEASE through back tension instead of hand manipulation.


So... isn't that what I said? 

Oh, one more thing. Your method will only work on a release with micro adjustment capability regardless of firing engine preference.


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## Padgett

You know today I was doing my hinge setup and I forgot to mention that I had probably 5 misfires where my bow fired before getting all the way back and I never hit myself in the face because I don't draw my bow with my bicep muscle at all, in fact it is 100% relaxed at all times during the draw cycle and my execution of the shot. If you have never worked on this you might give it a thought and then do the training.

I was able to draw straight back to my face to my anchor with no worry about punching myself. If you are going to be a hinge shooter I would suggest working on this.

Secondly you bet I started to slow today and then I kept moving the moon faster until I got some misfires, during this phase I was drawing with a neutral index finger and releasing my peg into the neutral index finger and I wanted to have some misfires as I was releasing my peg and before I started the firing engine. Once I got to that point where the hinge was to fast with a neutral index finger then I could stiffen my index finger just a little as I release the peg and then the hinge was perfect.

Getting it perfect so that I can execute a nice sweet little firing engine and send the arrow on its way to me is what allows me to experience my strongest shooting.


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## Shogun1

EPLC said:


> Oh, one more thing. Your method will only work on a release with micro adjustment capability regardless of firing engine preference.


You and I agree absolutely on that point.


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## Lazarus

This is all very interesting. And although I don't use the technique, (Fact,) I like Padgett's idea of setting the release to draw with equal pressure on all fingers to start. (Opinion.) 

Anytime I see a discussion of "hinge speeds" or even button speeds I see so much time being spend on hot/cold etc, I always point out that the firing speed isn't really that relevant. Why? Because your brain has this unique capability of adjusting itself within 100 arrows or so (for an advanced shooter, probably many less,) to make a hot release seem cold or a cold release seem hot. (Fact.) I'ts funny how people are so "conditioned" to the idea that trigger/hinge speeds are relevant that this fact usually flies over peoples heads and they continue to struggle with the settings on a mechanical device that the brain makes nearly irrelevant. (Observation.) 

Therefore, for a beginning shooter it's best to set the release up so that it can be drawn or let down without fear of premature firing, (Padgett's technique) because that's really all that's incredibly relevant in the process. (Theory.) 

........as always, it's the Indian. (Fact.) :cheers:


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## ron w

EPLC said:


> I did read them. My take on your pitch (at least in part) is to provide an improved teaching method so we can learn PBT... so then we can set our hinge properly... I'm glad it works for you and anyone else for that matter.
> 
> 
> 
> So... isn't that what I said?
> 
> Oh, one more thing. Your method will only work on a release with micro adjustment capability regardless of firing engine preference.


 I guess I don't quite understand your statement about micro-adjustability......
every hinge that has a set screw for adjusting engagement depth (or as some call it, ...speed), is micro-adjustable. the thread pitch of the set screw relates to "X" thousandths of an inch per revolution of the screw. it's just a simple matter of deriving the amount of travel any specific portion of one revolution of the set screw will produce as depth of engagement. another simple derivation would be to divide on revolution of pitch by 360 degrees, and establish that X number of degrees of revolution of the set screw changes the depth by "X" amount.
now, that can be taken one step further,........if your execution is well developed and your shot time is known to be fairly consistent,..... you could perceivably, extrapolate a change in elapsed time of execution, by knowing how much engagement depth is changed for any amount of revolution of the set screw. this change can then be either added or subtracted from your establish current execution time, to arrive at a somewhat predictable amount of change in your shot time.
the idea is based on the fact that thread pitch isestablished as "X" amount of travel per revolution of any given screw pitch.


----------



## zenarch

ron w said:


> I guess I don't quite understand your statement about micro-adjustability......
> every hinge that has a set screw for adjusting engagement depth (or as some call it, ...speed), is micro-adjustable. the thread pitch of the set screw relates to "X" thousandths of an inch per revolution of the screw. it's just a simple matter of deriving the amount of travel any specific portion of one revolution of the set screw will produce as depth of engagement. another simple derivation would be to divide on revolution of pitch by 360 degrees, and establish that X number of degrees of revolution of the set screw changes the depth by "X" amount.
> now, that can be taken one step further,........if your execution is well developed and your shot time is known to be fairly consistent,..... you could perceivably, extrapolate a change in elapsed time of execution, by knowing how much engagement depth is changed for any amount of revolution of the set screw. this change can then be either added or subtracted from your establish current execution time, to arrive at a somewhat predictable amount of change in your shot time.
> the idea is based on the fact that thread pitch isestablished as "X" amount of travel per revolution of any given screw pitch.


I can comment on the adjustability of BT releases. Some do have a micro adjust in which the turn of the adjustment screw changes the relationship of the cam to the edge of the dump. Many, like my Zenith, do not. The set screw used when adjusting these releases does nothing but remove the pressure which is keeping the cam from rotating it. You're now free to make an adjustment by physically rotating the cam either CW or CCW to change the speed of the release. The problem arises when you go to re-tighten the set screw. The cams are hardened and don't mar easily but the set screws are not and the tip flattens out. This causes the cam to roll back to the position it had before you tightened it. I've added 2 brass beads between the set screw and the cam to prevent this from happening. With a little practice and these brass beads a very simple method for micro adjusting has been achieved.


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## zenarch

Lazarus said:


> This is all very interesting. And although I don't use the technique, (Fact,) I like Padgett's idea of setting the release to draw with equal pressure on all fingers to start. (Opinion.)
> 
> Anytime I see a discussion of "hinge speeds" or even button speeds I see so much time being spend on hot/cold etc, I always point out that the firing speed isn't really that relevant. Why? Because your brain has this unique capability of adjusting itself within 100 arrows or so (for an advanced shooter, probably many less,) to make a hot release seem cold or a cold release seem hot. (Fact.) I'ts funny how people are so "conditioned" to the idea that trigger/hinge speeds are relevant that this fact usually flies over peoples heads and they continue to struggle with the settings on a mechanical device that the brain makes nearly irrelevant. (Observation.)
> 
> Therefore, for a beginning shooter it's best to set the release up so that it can be drawn or let down without fear of premature firing, (Padgett's technique) because that's really all that's incredibly relevant in the process. (Theory.)
> 
> ........as always, it's the Indian. (Fact.) :cheers:


I agree with what you say. As you keep increasing the speed of the release it feels great at first and then you get used to it and you're back to square one where you're hanging up. Several rounds of this will get you to the point of occasional misfires which can result in physical damage or, just as bad, loss of score. My advice to archers when there getting these hangups is to slow the release down to the point where it doesn't act like a trigger but takes some movement to set it off. I'm sorry to say I regularly disregard my own advice but eventually come back to it.
Joe B.


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## EPLC

ron w said:


> I guess I don't quite understand your statement about micro-adjustability......
> every hinge that has a set screw for adjusting engagement depth (or as some call it, ...speed), is micro-adjustable. the thread pitch of the set screw relates to "X" thousandths of an inch per revolution of the screw. it's just a simple matter of deriving the amount of travel any specific portion of one revolution of the set screw will produce as depth of engagement. another simple derivation would be to divide on revolution of pitch by 360 degrees, and establish that X number of degrees of revolution of the set screw changes the depth by "X" amount.
> now, that can be taken one step further,........if your execution is well developed and your shot time is known to be fairly consistent,..... you could perceivably, extrapolate a change in elapsed time of execution, by knowing how much engagement depth is changed for any amount of revolution of the set screw. this change can then be either added or subtracted from your establish current execution time, to arrive at a somewhat predictable amount of change in your shot time.
> the idea is based on the fact that thread pitch isestablished as "X" amount of travel per revolution of any given screw pitch.





zenarch said:


> I can comment on the adjustability of BT releases. Some do have a micro adjust in which the turn of the adjustment screw changes the relationship of the cam to the edge of the dump. Many, like my Zenith, do not. The set screw used when adjusting these releases does nothing but remove the pressure which is keeping the cam from rotating it. You're now free to make an adjustment by physically rotating the cam either CW or CCW to change the speed of the release. The problem arises when you go to re-tighten the set screw. The cams are hardened and don't mar easily but the set screws are not and the tip flattens out. This causes the cam to roll back to the position it had before you tightened it. I've added 2 brass beads between the set screw and the cam to prevent this from happening. With a little practice and these brass beads a very simple method for micro adjusting has been achieved.
> View attachment 2173937


Ron, Joe has hit the nail on the head with his explanation. Micro adjustability is a fairly new concept in the hinge world (2004). *"Micro Adjustable Fire Setting! - An Innovation pioneered by Stanislawski way back in 2004!" * 



Lazarus said:


> This is all very interesting. And although I don't use the technique, (Fact,) I like Padgett's idea of setting the release to draw with equal pressure on all fingers to start. (Opinion.)
> 
> Anytime I see a discussion of "hinge speeds" or even button speeds I see so much time being spend on hot/cold etc, I always point out that the firing speed isn't really that relevant. Why? Because your brain has this unique capability of adjusting itself within 100 arrows or so (for an advanced shooter, probably many less,) to make a hot release seem cold or a cold release seem hot. (Fact.) I'ts funny how people are so "conditioned" to the idea that trigger/hinge speeds are relevant that this fact usually flies over peoples heads and they continue to struggle with the settings on a mechanical device that the brain makes nearly irrelevant. (Observation.)
> 
> Therefore, for a beginning shooter it's best to set the release up so that it can be drawn or let down without fear of premature firing, (Padgett's technique) because that's really all that's incredibly relevant in the process. (Theory.)
> 
> ........as always, it's the Indian. (Fact.) :cheers:





zenarch said:


> I agree with what you say. As you keep increasing the speed of the release it feels great at first and then you get used to it and you're back to square one where you're hanging up. Several rounds of this will get you to the point of occasional misfires which can result in physical damage or, just as bad, loss of score. My advice to archers when there getting these hangups is to slow the release down to the point where it doesn't act like a trigger but takes some movement to set it off. I'm sorry to say I regularly disregard my own advice but eventually come back to it.
> Joe B.


I also find this to be absolutely true. The only release that this was less of a factor for me was my trusty old Sweet Spot. Because the sear was contained within the floating head the speed remained the same regardless of hand position. Using a standard hinge my brain and body would find the edge in very shot order. This was the initial reason I switched to this release to begin with. Now, I am using a thumb peg for the first time and using this for setup has slowed down the process of "learning" the release speed.


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## grantmac

I sure did like the feel of the Zenith releases that I've held, but I really cannot love a release without some sort of micro-adjust. The Stans and TB HT are by far the best in that regard.

If Joe came out with a micro-adjust head I think I'd be into a Zenith pretty quick.

-Grant


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## ron w

it might be a new concept for some, but the ins and outs, (or should I say, ...ups and downs !) of thread pitch is a concept that has been around since before the pyramids were built. nothing new about brass or nylon crush pads used with a set screw. they've been around way longer than I am alive. precision equipment has used them as long as precision equipment has been around. by the way.... a small chunk of weed whacker string, between a setscrew and it's locking surface works perfectly, for just that purpose.
I don't think the problem lies with how to lock something in place without marring the locking surface, the real problem lies with people not being aware of how "thread pitch" works.

Zenacrch,
where you hit the nail on the head is with your last post (#31). development of a reliably inert release execution, would solve 99.9% of just about everybody's problems.


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## zenarch

ron w said:


> it might be a new concept for some, but the ins and outs, (or should I say, ...ups and downs !) of thread pitch is a concept that has been around since before the pyramids were built. nothing new about brass or nylon crush pads used with a set screw. they've been around way longer than I am alive. precision equipment has used them as long as precision equipment has been around. by the way.... a small chunk of weed whacker string, between a setscrew and it's locking surface works perfectly, for just that purpose.
> I don't think the problem lies with how to lock something in place without marring the locking surface, the real problem lies with people not being aware of how "thread pitch" works.
> 
> Zenacrch,
> where you hit the nail on the head is with your last post (#31). development of a reliably inert release execution, would solve 99.9% of just about everybody's problems.


Ron,
Thread pitch has nothing to do with the adjustment of the "non-microadjust" releases. Either the set screw is tight, locking the cam in place or it's loose, allowing the cam to be rotated manually.
Joe B.


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## zenarch

grantmac said:


> I sure did like the feel of the Zenith releases that I've held, but I really cannot love a release without some sort of micro-adjust. The Stans and TB HT are by far the best in that regard.
> 
> If Joe came out with a micro-adjust head I think I'd be into a Zenith pretty quick.
> 
> -Grant


Grant,
If you are shooting a release with a clicker the micro adj. would be of no help since the speed adjustment only would change the travel to get to the click, which should not be critical at all. If you don't use the clicker see my post #30 above on how I dealt with adjustability.
Joe B.


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## cschwanz

Relatively new to hinge/BT releases, about a year or so. Never had a safety and don't see a need for one. There may be other types but I've only used a Scott Longhorn. Thumb on the peg, draw the bow. After some PMs with Padgett, I set the release too cold to fire and drew it back a few times to get the feel of a new system. Then I started creeping it hotter and hotter. Draw with thumb holding the peg then let go off the thumb and pull/rotate thru the shot. Did this over and over making slow changes to the firing speed until it started going off as soon as i let go of the thumb peg (too hot). Turned it colder just a touch and been there ever since. Recently just flipped it around to take the click out and need to work through some of that same process again. Did a fast version of it a couple weeks ago but need to fine tune when I get/make some time.


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## zenarch

cschwanz said:


> Relatively new to hinge/BT releases, about a year or so. Never had a safety and don't see a need for one. There may be other types but I've only used a Scott Longhorn. Thumb on the peg, draw the bow. After some PMs with Padgett, I set the release too cold to fire and drew it back a few times to get the feel of a new system. Then I started creeping it hotter and hotter. Draw with thumb holding the peg then let go off the thumb and pull/rotate thru the shot. Did this over and over making slow changes to the firing speed until it started going off as soon as i let go of the thumb peg (too hot). Turned it colder just a touch and been there ever since. Recently just flipped it around to take the click out and need to work through some of that same process again. Did a fast version of it a couple weeks ago but need to fine tune when I get/make some time.


Good post. That's the way I tell people to get started. Just beware of the "too hot" setting and leave yourself some room to feel the pressure being applied to the release by your triggering fingers.
Joe B.


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## EPLC

zenarch said:


> Ron,
> Thread pitch has nothing to do with the adjustment of the "non-microadjust" releases. Either the set screw is tight, locking the cam in place or it's loose, allowing the cam to be rotated manually.
> Joe B.


"Everybody knows that!"... "Well did you know that words can hurt you?"... (Sorry I got this whole conversation confused with a GEICO commercial  )


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## grantmac

zenarch said:


> Grant,
> If you are shooting a release with a clicker the micro adj. would be of no help since the speed adjustment only would change the travel to get to the click, which should not be critical at all. If you don't use the clicker see my post #30 above on how I dealt with adjustability.
> Joe B.


I do shoot with a click. However I set-up so the click happens as I remove tension from the peg. If it doesn't I let down and start over with the shot.
Having a micro-adjust hinge really helps with that set-up.

-Grant


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## Mahly

Same here.


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## zenarch

grantmac said:


> I do shoot with a click. However I set-up so the click happens as I remove tension from the peg. If it doesn't I let down and start over with the shot.
> Having a micro-adjust hinge really helps with that set-up.
> 
> -Grant


Grant,
I'm not a fan of the thumb peg either, even though most people who buy my release want it. For me setting the click should be part of the transfer of the draw weight from the index finger to the triggering finger or fingers, not a relaxation of the thumb. My current shot routine is to draw the release (2 finger Zenith) mainly with my index finger but with a solid grip on my middle finger. I then start applying more pressure on the middle finger, enough to overcome the index pull, until the release clicks. No relaxation involved, all adding pressure. From that point I continue to load the middle finger until the release fires. So my sequence is pull to draw, pull to click and pull to fire, not pull to draw, relax to click and pull to fire. What I always tell my customers is to listen to and try all the advice you hear, then let your scores tell you which one is right for you.
Joe B.


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## ron w

everybody figures out a way that works best for them. the problem is that usually, people don't give a newly tried way, enough time to really "show it's oats", so-to-speak. all too often, they try something new and dismiss it, for various reasons, before their shot process has a chance to adjust to it well enough to be an ingrained element of the shot. so many times, this creates the situation where they pass right by something that may actually help them, if it was given enough time. 
a score or two with new element, is nowhere near enough time to make an effective evaluation, unless the new element is clearly something that does not fit in your shot process and if your shot process is more or less typical, most typical elements that one might try as "new", will usually fit right in, if given a reasonable chance. 
as to thumb pegs, I have seen, that a lot of shooters who have come up through the years where hinges were somewhat new to the sport,....the older guys that have been shooting a relatively long time,.... are more apt to not want or need a thumb peg, or can take them or leave them.


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## ron w

Zenarch,
one a release that has no set screw for adjusting engagement depth,....one that relies on depth of ledge to establish "speed" as you call it. rotating the cam, "or moon", only changes the angle of the starting position of the relase, as you hold it at anchor. it does nothing in relation to the "speed" of the release.
sauch a click, with a .006", or a .010" shelf. rotating the cam, in either shelf configuration, does not change the "speed" of the release. it only changes the relationship between the shelf used and and, the current level of rotation developed by the shooter, by changing how the hand sits in relation to the rotation his or her execution develops. 
the only thing that actually changes the "speed", of the release, is the depth of the shelves' support, the amount of supporting surface area the dump has to be dragged off of, to reach the edge of support and dump the shot. if there is no adjustability of this support area, the speed of the release cannot change by rotating the cam, regardless of what angle the starting position is in.


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## zenarch

ron w said:


> Zenarch,
> one a release that has no set screw for adjusting engagement depth,....one that relies on depth of ledge to establish "speed" as you call it. rotating the cam, "or moon", only changes the angle of the starting position of the relase, as you hold it at anchor. it does nothing in relation to the "speed" of the release.
> sauch a click, with a .006", or a .010" shelf. rotating the cam, in either shelf configuration, does not change the "speed" of the release. it only changes the relationship between the shelf used and and, the current level of rotation developed by the shooter, by changing how the hand sits in relation to the rotation his or her execution develops.
> the only thing that actually changes the "speed", of the release, is the depth of the shelves' support, the amount of supporting surface area the dump has to be dragged off of, to reach the edge of support and dump the shot. if there is no adjustability of this support area, the speed of the release cannot change by rotating the cam, regardless of what angle the starting position is in.


Ron,
My final description: if you use a clicker, rotating the cam changes the amount of travel it takes to get to the click. Once you're in the click the speed of the release is determined by the size of the clicker ledge. If you don't use the clicker, rotating the cam make the release fire quicker or slower.
Joe B.


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## EPLC

ron w said:


> Zenarch,
> one a release that has no set screw for adjusting engagement depth,....one that relies on depth of ledge to establish "speed" as you call it. rotating the cam, "or moon", only changes the angle of the starting position of the relase, as you hold it at anchor. it does nothing in relation to the "speed" of the release.
> sauch a click, with a .006", or a .010" shelf. rotating the cam, in either shelf configuration, does not change the "speed" of the release. it only changes the relationship between the shelf used and and, the current level of rotation developed by the shooter, by changing how the hand sits in relation to the rotation his or her execution develops.
> the only thing that actually changes the "speed", of the release, is the depth of the shelves' support, the amount of supporting surface area the dump has to be dragged off of, to reach the edge of support and dump the shot. if there is no adjustability of this support area, the speed of the release cannot change by rotating the cam, regardless of what angle the starting position is in.


Absolutely 100% wrong with regard to the discussion at hand... "Speed" is the amount of rotation the release needs to travel to fire. Moving the half moon on a release without micro adjustability is exactly how you do that. It's how it was done in 1974 and it's how it is done in 2015. The difference in "speed" when using a clicker an .006" or .010" clicker is .004" and you would still have to adjust the moon to set the initial starting point which would also be the speed you would set to get to the clicker.


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## Padgett

In my mind the proof to me is overall performance on the line in competitions, ever since I began hinge shooting i have at some level had the same thing happen over and over where I become proficient at producing a lot of rotation and shooting in my back yard but the minute I get to a competition I am slower and shooting in the later half of my shot window and I suck. Even now that I am a very strong shooter the same thing got me just a couple weeks ago, on the flip side over and over having my hinge set a little fast has proven to me time and time again to be a positive thing when it comes to competitions. Sure I seem to be a little early in my shot window during my training but the moment I step up in competition and I have a little nervous energy I slow down to a perfect speed. 

To me everything we do is part of the game that we are playing and for me showing up and competing at a high level against really good shooters is high on my list, I enjoy good shooting by myself but I really really enjoy shooting good when beating other people more.


One of the things that I am using more and more as time goes by is my index finger, in the beginning my index finger did nothing but screw up any attempts at hinge shooting that I was doing because I knew nothing. Now my index finger is my fine tune to the overall speed of my hinge daily and per shot, basically it is my micro adjust. That is why I explained earlier in some of my posts how I choose to set up a hinge with my index finger neutral because then once I get my hinge up and firing in that setting I can slightly stiffen my index finger to slow the hinge down a little or relax it a little to speed it up just a little. This basically gives me three different speed settings to my hinge.

I know that most new hinge shooters have a frozen or stiff index finger and what this does is it shuts down any possible rotation and even if they try and relax their finger a little it only gives them a little extra speed because they are overly stiff and it usually isn't enough. By setting a hinge up with a neutral index finger you are in a middle position where you can go either direction either stiffer or more relaxed and it gives you choices. It gives you a window of speed to work within and customize your shooting during a scoring round.


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## Travis Shaw

EPLC said:


> If this is your basic premise, then you'd best set your release on the hot end as cold ain't getting it done. I'll stick with what Eric Griggs had to say about release settings several times in several threads since 2004. here's just one.


 I have been shooting a hinge for about 4 years now. In leagues I would always have trouble getting the release to go off in a timely manner. It became bad enough that I was thinking about it more than where the arrow was going to go. So not knowing any better I set it faster . I find that is not the answer for me it makes my hand tense up more and I'd even harder to go off. This one thing has made more of a difference in my shooting than any other thing I have learned since shooting a hinge. I still have work to do but think I have finally found something that gets me a little closer to how I would like to shoot.


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## Padgett

zenarch, I am wondering what kind of click you use on your hinges? I don't care for longhorn clicks because they are basically a ditch for the hook to fall into and then you have to pull the hook out of the ditch to fire the hinge and it causes hang ups. 

I took my old bernies knuckle under and I used my dremil and I made my own click style hinge and I really liked it. I basically ground down and left a 1/16 inch second smooth level. So when you drew you were on the first level and then as you come to anchor it fell onto the second level but there was still a 1/16 left to go before firing. I did shorten this distance with my dremil grinding off some of the moon but in the end I really enjoyed shooting with this style of click. I have never shot the carter two moon but I have a feeling this is the same style of click. What I really liked about it was the fact that when it clicks you aren't really close to it firing so there is a sweet feeling of safety but when I applied some effort to rotating the hinge it didn't feel like I was trying to pull it out of a ditch.


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## Padgett

Travis Shaw, There is a lesson to be learned here is you choose to take a second look at shooting with a fast hinge. The lesson is in setup, you can't just turn the moon faster and then give it a try because your brain ends up being scared of the speed and it will cause your hand to be tense or frozen. So when you make the decision that you are going to set up a hinge faster than normal you have to take a step back and make a couple decisions.

1. I am going to set my hinge a little extra slower than normal and I am going to draw back a few times with a soft hand that has no extra tension in it and just feel what it is like to draw safely with a perfect grip with a soft hand.

2. I am then going to spend the next 10 minutes moving the moon ever so slightly each time and I am going to come to anchor and release my thumb peg only and it is either going to fire or not and then I am going to let down.

3. As soon as it fires for the first time I am going to stay at that speed and repeat the process and see if it fires two or three times by only releasing the thumb peg.

4. Now I am going to draw my bow with the same speed setting and I am going to stiffen up my index finger just a little just before letting go of the thumb peg and see if it fires or not. If it doesn't I am going to run my normal firing engine and see what happens.

5. At this point I will be firing every time and it is going to be a simple decision of weather it is a little fast or perfect, most of the time it is perfect and as the shooting session progresses I feel more and more comfortable but as the session continues I may need to slow it down a little. 

The key is that you can't just speed up a hinge and give it a try, this doesn't work and it does nothing but frustrate the shooter because of the fear of it being set fast. But if you give yourself a job to do and that job is based on having a soft hand and it also centers your setup around releasing the peg then you can work with those things in mind and have something to work towards.


----------



## EPLC

Travis Shaw said:


> I have been shooting a hinge for about 4 years now. In leagues I would always have trouble getting the release to go off in a timely manner. It became bad enough that I was thinking about it more than where the arrow was going to go. So not knowing any better I set it faster . I find that is not the answer for me it makes my hand tense up more and I'd even harder to go off. This one thing has made more of a difference in my shooting than any other thing I have learned since shooting a hinge. I still have work to do but think I have finally found something that gets me a little closer to how I would like to shoot.


I think you are taking my quote out of context. I too have to set my release slow or the same issues arise. The OP posted up a process for setting the release speed for those using "Pure" back tension, which does require a faster setting than other methods using hand manipulation. His method's goal and end result is a fast release setting. Personally, I do not find "Pure" back tension, or the speed setting process of the OP the best for my style of shooting. For those that have it working for them, a tip of the hat.


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## ron w

simple standard trigger geometry, dictates that the sear surface should be at right angle to a line drawn between the bail pivot center and the dump pivot center. very small deviations to this geometry can be found in making the collapse, either easier to accomplish, or harder to accomplish, that is,.... requiring either less effort or more effort, respectively.
I doubt that the click, on any release deviates from this geometry much, if any, just because it is a click type moon. just because there is a notch in the moon, that creates the click, it doesn't mean that the geometry of the bearing, or supporting surface, deviates from the typical requirements of trigger geometry. the bearing surface of that click , has the same geometry as that of a regular moon. what produces the "click", is the sudden landing of the dump, as it goes from the major diameter of the moon, to the bearing surface of the click shelf, not falling into some sort of "ditch".
the speed, is not a product of the release, it is a product on how long your execution has to work to collapse the dump and break the shot off, measured in time. the release....has no specific "speed", only an adjustable distance, measured in degrees, that it needs to be rotated. rotation, expressed in degrees, is a measurement of distance, not speed or time.
when you set a hinge that is not adjustable for depth of sear engagement, you are adjusting the distance that the hinge has to rotate, not the time it needs to do the rotation. ie......you are setting the length of rotation from rest at anchor to the collapse of the dump, not the speed.
some may call it "speed", but it is not the correct terminology,.....of course,...... this is only my humble opinion.


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## Mahly

Be it called "speed" or "heat", doesn't really matter much unless we are discussing how to build a hinge.
For this discussion, I think most would agree that we can use speed or heat interchangeably and people would understand what they meant.


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## SonnyThomas

Lazarus said:


> This is all very interesting. And although I don't use the technique, (Fact,) I like Padgett's idea of setting the release to draw with equal pressure on all fingers to start. (Opinion.)
> 
> Anytime I see a discussion of "hinge speeds" or even button speeds I see so much time being spend on hot/cold etc, I always point out that the firing speed isn't really that relevant. Why? Because your brain has this unique capability of adjusting itself within 100 arrows or so (for an advanced shooter, probably many less,) to make a hot release seem cold or a cold release seem hot. (Fact.) I'ts funny how people are so "conditioned" to the idea that trigger/hinge speeds are relevant that this fact usually flies over peoples heads and they continue to struggle with the settings on a mechanical device that the brain makes nearly irrelevant. (Observation.)
> 
> Therefore, for a beginning shooter it's best to set the release up so that it can be drawn or let down without fear of premature firing, (Padgett's technique) because that's really all that's incredibly relevant in the process. (Theory.)
> 
> ........as always, it's the Indian. (Fact.) :cheers:


When it gets to reading I go brain dead. This is short, understandable and to the point....


----------



## zenarch

Padgett said:


> zenarch, I am wondering what kind of click you use on your hinges? I don't care for longhorn clicks because they are basically a ditch for the hook to fall into and then you have to pull the hook out of the ditch to fire the hinge and it causes hang ups.
> 
> I took my old bernies knuckle under and I used my dremil and I made my own click style hinge and I really liked it. I basically ground down and left a 1/16 inch second smooth level. So when you drew you were on the first level and then as you come to anchor it fell onto the second level but there was still a 1/16 left to go before firing. I did shorten this distance with my dremil grinding off some of the moon but in the end I really enjoyed shooting with this style of click. I have never shot the carter two moon but I have a feeling this is the same style of click. What I really liked about it was the fact that when it clicks you aren't really close to it firing so there is a sweet feeling of safety but when I applied some effort to rotating the hinge it didn't feel like I was trying to pull it out of a ditch.


I have 4 speeds of clickers. The fastest has a drop of only .001 from the cam surface onto the ledge. The travel to the shooting edge is .004.
The .006 is .0015 X .006, the eight is .002 X .008 and the twelve is .0025 X .012. The eight and twelve work best with a rope on the release and the four and six I recommend for the d loop. If you're looking for a sensitive release try my .006 cam with a release mounted rope.
Joe B.


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## zenarch

ron w said:


> simple standard trigger geometry, dictates that the sear surface should be at right angle to a line drawn between the bail pivot center and the dump pivot center. very small deviations to this geometry can be found in making the collapse, either easier to accomplish, or harder to accomplish, that is,.... requiring either less effort or more effort, respectively.
> I doubt that the click, on any release deviates from this geometry much, if any, just because it is a click type moon. just because there is a notch in the moon, that creates the click, it doesn't mean that the geometry of the bearing, or supporting surface, deviates from the typical requirements of trigger geometry. the bearing surface of that click , has the same geometry as that of a regular moon. what produces the "click", is the sudden landing of the dump, as it goes from the major diameter of the moon, to the bearing surface of the click shelf, not falling into some sort of "ditch".
> the speed, is not a product of the release, it is a product on how long your execution has to work to collapse the dump and break the shot off, measured in time. the release....has no specific "speed", only an adjustable distance, measured in degrees, that it needs to be rotated. rotation, expressed in degrees, is a measurement of distance, not speed or time.
> when you set a hinge that is not adjustable for depth of sear engagement, you are adjusting the distance that the hinge has to rotate, not the time it needs to do the rotation. ie......you are setting the length of rotation from rest at anchor to the collapse of the dump, not the speed.
> some may call it "speed", but it is not the correct terminology,.....of course,...... this is only my humble opinion.


????


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## EPLC

zenarch said:


> ????


Everybody knows that!


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## EPLC

Lazarus said:


> This is all very interesting. And although I don't use the technique, (Fact,) I like Padgett's idea of setting the release to draw with equal pressure on all fingers to start. (Opinion.)
> 
> Anytime I see a discussion of "hinge speeds" or even button speeds I see so much time being spend on hot/cold etc, I always point out that the firing speed isn't really that relevant. Why? Because your brain has this unique capability of adjusting itself within 100 arrows or so (for an advanced shooter, probably many less,) to make a hot release seem cold or a cold release seem hot. (Fact.) I'ts funny how people are so "conditioned" to the idea that trigger/hinge speeds are relevant that this fact usually flies over peoples heads and they continue to struggle with the settings on a mechanical device that the brain makes nearly irrelevant. (Observation.)
> 
> Therefore, for a beginning shooter it's best to set the release up so that it can be drawn or let down without fear of premature firing, (Padgett's technique) because that's really all that's incredibly relevant in the process. (Theory.)
> 
> ........as always, it's the Indian. (Fact.) :cheers:


After thinking about this, I've come to the conclusion that this is not always the case. It really depends on the process, and while the brain will find the sweet spot at some point you still are better off with a process to set the hinge initially, or reset as the case may be. In the case of hinge releases with floating heads the "speed" will remain constant for extended periods of time because the speed is not dependent on hand position. In the case of setting up with a thumb peg consistency can be somewhat achieved better than without a thumb peg. (Opinion )


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## ron w

hinges have no "speed". the so called "speed", is relative to the amount of rotation you develop in contrast to the starting position you prefer to use. both, being measured in the realm of distance, not acceleration. considering this issue as "speed", is on the same level as calling a hinge a "back tension release ".
the only element of speed in this relationship, is associated with the rate at which you execute your release process. setting a hinge for starting position vs. dump angle, is centered around angular dispersion, which is a measurement of distance, not speed.
this is of course , just my opinion. but i'm pretty sure the concept of speed has no element of angular dispersion in it. angular dispersion is a measurement of distance and has no relation to speed, of any kind.
again just my opinion.....but I can't remember any reference to angular dispersion being directly associate with anything but distance, in all the trig and physics I had in high school.


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## EPLC

I guess we'll just have to consider the word "speed" in this application a slang expression. Also, we probably will want "hot", "cold"and several other incorrect terms in this "slang" category as well for obvious reasons.


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## montigre

I believe it is an argument over semantics...


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## EPLC

montigre said:


> I believe it is an argument over semantics...


There is no "argument"... I'm sure Ron was just "funning" with us. &#55357;&#56841;


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## cbrunson

EPLC said:


> After thinking about this, I've come to the conclusion that this is not always the case. It really depends on the process, and while the brain will find the sweet spot at some point you still are better off with a process to set the hinge initially, or reset as the case may be. In the case of hinge releases with floating heads the "speed" will remain constant for extended periods of time because the speed is not dependent on hand position. In the case of setting up with a thumb peg consistency can be somewhat achieved better than without a thumb peg. (Opinion )


Anticipating the shot can be done with any release. That's all he's saying regarding the fixed "speed" or "angular dispersion" of where it's set. The benefit to a colder setting is in having a more difficult time aticipating it exactly. It can change slightly by how you rotate it, but after shooting it at that setting for a long time, you will get a feel for when it is going to fire. That could be a good, or bad thing, depending on how anticipating the shot affects your shooting.


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## Padgett

One of the things I have done personally is realize I am going to miss a x or so most days out of my hundred shots or so but it is how I miss them that is the choice that I make.

1. I can set my hinge a little slow where I can draw the bow 100% relaxed and then run a longer engine that produces a good amount of rotation and shoot later in my shot window and see poor float and possibly pull my float off center as the extended effort fires the hinge.

2. I can set the hinge up fast where I have a little stress drawing the bow and once I get to anchor I can send the arrow on its way in the first half of my shot window when it is pro quality. Sure one time per day I might fire a little early as my pin is settling in and that will be my only miss.

For me when I look at my shooting on the way home using the slow method I feel like I have ran a mental marathon and I had to focus on my execution to the point where I really felt the need to force things to get through the session clean and I failed mentally and missed a x or two.

When I shoot with option two I enjoy the day and I shoot slightly tighter and I only miss one or two x's but I mentally I always feel so relaxed and strong. So for me I still train with a slow hinge because I see the benefits of working on a nice long smooth execution but when I am doing the bulk of my shooting g and competing I use a fast one set to my competition speed.


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## Padgett

Posting on a phone sucks.


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## ron w

there are benefits to that, maybe not so far apart in "window time", that you work from either end of the shot's window range, but somewhere safely or comfortably inside the two extremes. 
practicing slow and long in execution, develops the rotation to continue reliably on it's own, until the shot breaks. advantages gained, is knowing mentally, that once you start the execution, you know it will proceed unforced, leaving the decision to abandon a shot, the only thing that might need to be done during the process. 
it is amazing, how much more effort goes into a round, when you're always executing a shot that breaks late in the window, or late in the rotational range of your release execution.
a lot of this issue, lends it self to consideration of the "shot window timing drills". what you have described, is exactly what the drill is for. ....developing the shot to break during the time element, in your execution, that produces the "x" and training the break to stay in that window. when it does, effort to produce "good shots", is considerably reduced, because they are neither earlier than you are ready for them, or later than you want them to happen. 
as much as we try to "let the shot happen by itself", there is always still that element of wanting the shot breaking when you want it to,... this is present, ... no matter how hard we try to stay away from that "deliberately produced" shot. the more reliably the shot is trained to go within the individual comfort zone we "posses", the better we will shoot. establishing and recognizing just what our specific "comfort zone" is, produces those good shots, with very little effort.
the "shot window drill", is exactly what trains this, into our execution.


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## zenarch

EPLC said:


> I guess we'll just have to consider the word "speed" in this application a slang expression. Also, we probably will want "hot", "cold"and several other incorrect terms in this "slang" category as well for obvious reasons.


I'm sticking with speed as in "My release goes off FASTER than your's". Not "My angular dispersion is greater than your's"
Joe B.


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## EPLC

zenarch said:


> I'm sticking with speed as in "My release goes off FASTER than your's". Not "My angular dispersion is greater than your's"
> Joe B.


"Everybody knows that"


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## Lazarus

zenarch said:


> I'm sticking with speed as in "My release goes off FASTER than your's". Not "My angular dispersion is greater than your's"
> Joe B.


Where's the like button?!? ^^^


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## cbrunson

Lazarus said:


> Where's the like button?!? ^^^


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## Lazarus

Yup. There it is! ^^^ :cheers:


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## Padgett

Today was a really good reminder day to me to why I do things the way I do, I showed up and nothing felt right. My float was wrong and my fast hinge felt slow and my slower one I train with felt like a mile to get itdone. So iI just shot the fast one and it shot at a moderate speed for my warm up shots and then as I felt things changing in my hand and forearm settled into a normal feel it speeded up to its normal timing in my window. This is the kind of day where my body would have screwed me and I would have sucked in competition but my cast hinge allowed me to shoot in the middle of the window and still shoot good.


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## possum trapper

its all about doing it the same or close to the same everytime.
all your doing is setting the release travel for your window of timing and we have all been there with too much index finger tension and the release wont fire and we have all been there where you yank with the 2 fingers you shouldnt be yanking with and it pops off way too soon.

so its a discipline to where you have to do it the exact same way every time to get the exact same results


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## blackduck889

tagged


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## Planner

Tagged


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## Jbaltz8765

Marked.


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## redman

The rope on the release with a hinge or button is a super smooth release when I was shooting that set up for out doors I had two releases one with a little longer rope of the down hill shots


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## SonnyThomas

I have pitched virtually every write-up, article and book about hinges. I have mastered failure with a hinge....I think. At the end of the 2016 3D season I put aside all my releases for learning the hinge. I started out well, had some pit falls, got something of better as I staggered along. A injury set me back and now Influ Type A. I think I'm loosing ground faster than I'm gaining. 

The damned hinge is hard in every fashion imaginable. Yep, I can draw, anchor, ease off the thumb barrel safely and fearlessly. I can do this with any hinge I have. I've updated my hinges when I realized a bit too small is worse than too big. In large; Stan MagMicro Trio and Jet Black. The old Stan Deuce is far better than the Onyx and Onyx went. I picked up two micro adjustable TRU Ball HTs in large and found some pleasure...or relief? The HTs do not have moons, but they called moons. One is set with a click and other not. Tommy, TRU Ball, walked me through changing this "moon." The pointer thing is really a joke. You'd have to have one to understand. The HTs did help with my Jet Black. Still, the Jet Black is not the perfect hinge. I have my Jet Black set as hot as it will go and it still requires more rotation than I like. Previously I had the Blackjack in medium and it could be set too hot. I emailed Stan why the Jet Black couldn't be set truly hot and of course no reply. I have managed to find something of close with positioning my thumb just so on the barrel and giving better results.
There are days when all comes together and other days I border on all out target panic. I can get past the target panic in short order. I've blown holes through some of my targets that make me proud. There seems magic for finding the X ring, but then it only takes one arrow going some other place to wreck everything. 

Note; One thing I've found is the lack of positioning of the thumb barrel. My MagMicro doesn't have a pulling post and I can get along with it. My Deuce's pulling post sucks for positon, but I've got it set so I don't have to use it. Still, when you don't have a "safety" it gets me to thinking. 

Blank baling, transferring the shot...just about everything I've read really sucks. Stepping to the line seems the only thing that works for me.

No Indoor target competition, just practice. I've ran off a couple 297s. I did shoot a Indoor paper animal event the same night I came down the Influ A bug. I had a one point lead at which was said the half way point. I had a 115 with using just my 20 yard pin for distances as closes as 7 yards and the longest 30 yards. I was so exhausted I sat it out. The second half was nothing but a repeat of the first. The man that won shot a 107 on the second half! Kind of wished I found some "horse power" to finish. 

That night the Influ A hit and hit hard. For the first time in my life I thought I was going to die. Doc took me in first thing in the morning. One look and he was going to throw me in the hospital. He got my lungs going right there in the office along with two nurses all over me like mother hens. Lord. Lungs working the doc let me off with home continued lung treatments of Albuterol Sulfate (air pump). It's like smoking pot. Take it deep in your lungs and hold so you get the real effect. And there were 8 pills for something and another 8 pills that no insurance covers. 8 pills, $154.00. I don't think they helped one bit, but I'm alive.

Yesterday, first day to draw my bow. ??! It gained draw weight setting around! Of course none of my hinges wanted to cooperate until my bow decided to loose some of the draw weight it gained. If the weather holds, about 60 degrees, I'll be at it again....


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## RCR_III

Geez Sonny that sounds horrible! Glad you're recovering!


I don't always recommend this to people because I feel like it can be done incorrectly and that's when people start getting punched in the face by some stranger that jumps out of the bushes haha

I draw a hinge pretty much all with my thumb and index and barely any pressure on the middle finger(2Finger Hinge). So I like to work from a hotter setting to a colder one because it suits my style better. When I shoot a hinge I'm relaxing the index into the click. This lets me start shifting weight bias and load to the middle finger and then as I work through my shot the middle finger is already engaged and whether I just pull or I curl the middle finger, the index is letting the rotation happen because I relaxed it into the click. 

So for me, starting hot and then slowing the release down until I get the right amount of weight transfer is what I look for.


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## SonnyThomas

^^^ Right about there as RCR put forth. Odd maybe, but I can fire the HTs almost as good using them as 2 fingers instead of 3 fingers.

Just got back from the Indoor range. For the shooting I did me did okay. Get on target, relax fingers, and pull that tiny bit, dead X.

Me and my thumb. 10 years with a thumb release and I sometimes forget to take my thumb off the hinge pulling post :sad:


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## vito9999

Sonny your comment about a hinge being a touch big over a touch small is very true. I got my mits on a XL Bernies Knuckle Under. That release just floats in my hand so nice. I did put a Zenith .012 clicker to get the feel I preferred. Your playing with release really got me into release modifications. It is really amazing how many parts are interchangeable on the different manufactures hinges.


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