# Diamond Edition Guillotine First Look!



## shooterdom (Jan 6, 2008)

lookin 'killer'....will they cost the same as the last model of guillotines?

6 packs or 3 packs?


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## arrowds (Mar 4, 2008)

Yes..and No.....meaning...I have worked hard to provide a solid titanium bladed broadhead with machined tolerancing to .0001" and keep a price point of less than $40 to the bowhunters. The only manner of doing this while delivering all of these history making features and performance benefits never accomplished before is to package them in a package of two initially. The reversability of the solid titanium blades significantly enhance the value due to re-usability/durability easily providing cost justification. I assure you...those whom have had the pleasure of shooting this solid titanium bladed design, picked it up, shot again and again...haven't even questioned the cost. They just question whether they can keep the prototypes I handed them!


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## smbmd (Jan 31, 2006)

*Bh*

Looks interesting..I never tried the original because I was always told (by the retailer), they are VERY hard to tune. Were they, and if so, why is this design so superior? Thanks.


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## Jason Balazs (Feb 10, 2007)

Awesome Matt!!


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## arrowds (Mar 4, 2008)

smbmd....I can only tell you that if a retailer made a comment like that....he can't read directions or bothered to ever pick up the phone and call me or my staff to ask a simple question. The reality is that my designs capabilities are ONLY limited by those capabilities of the user. The original Guillotine can be shot to speeds well in excess of any speed from current crossbows or compound bows with phenominal accuracy and doesn't need "Tuning". My testing involved attaining velocity via gun powder...not only strings and cam's. 

Why is it "So Superior"? I admit it....I'm very biased obviously ...This Diamond Edition Guillotine being the culmination of all things learned and then applied to metal based off nearly seventeen years of experience. I've shot it a lot, killed a bunch of small game and a turkey or two this spring. Others have also. Same results, same comments from them. Now...it's just a matter of you spending a little money and less than five minutes shooting to experience what I'm talking about whether the original Guillotine or this new Diamond Edition Guillotine. Seventeen years of my time...five minutes of your time...not too much to ask in trade for an opportunity for you to make up your own mind don't you think?

Jason....thanks for the comment...you'll be getting some in the very near future to test.


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## smbmd (Jan 31, 2006)

*Diamond*

Thanks for the information..it is a shame that when we ask for guidance from the retailer, we are at their mercy, justifiably or not. Unfortnately I am not in a postion to try all the equipment that looks interesting, but I am definitely going to try yours..always looking for a better mousetrap. Thanks for you dedication to the sport!!

PS: I also heard you HAVE to hit the turkey in the head...was that also an urban legend?


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## Jason Balazs (Feb 10, 2007)

SMBMD,

You should aim at the Neck area to "Take off their head." It is called a Guillotine which means, "a device used for carrying out executions by decapitation." The executions are on the turley not you:wink:


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## Rattler (Dec 19, 2006)

Matt,
i was sorta disappointed in the "toughness" of the Guillotine, but looks like i need to give this newer one a try.


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## arrowds (Mar 4, 2008)

Rattler,

Give me a PM with your home address....last year we released the improvements to the original Guillotine...I'll send you these improvements where you can then test them for toughness/durability in comparison to what you currently have. I'm quite confident you'll enjoy the improvements our engineering has delivered on the original Guillotine. We simply cannot break blades anymore...yep...bend them on rocks and such...but not break them. We use a patented stainless steel hardening process, we've eliminated tolerance drift in production of the titanium ferruls which delivers perfect blade capture every time now. Just a couple small details which ramped the overall strength up to what it was originally engineered to deliver. 
As for the new Diamond Edition Guillotine....quite simply...it's tough...The solid titanium, reversible blades provide strenght and a huge re-usability factor not typical of any other design.


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## AzDiamondHeat (May 10, 2008)

Can they be re-sharpened in addition to reversing them? One of the challenges we have is that we tried to use the original on small game out here in Arizona; lots of rocks. It was a lot of fun but a very expensive loss after only a couple of shots in the dirt and cactus and rocks rendered it unusable(too dull for efective use. Still flew ok though).


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## Sky Warrior (Dec 12, 2004)

*Minimum for Guillotine*

I am disabled and shoot one handed with a mouth tab. What the minimum recommended fps/arrow weight for Guillotine use on turkeys?

Also can you shoot a Guillotine through a ground blind's mesh window?

It does look like a great broadhead.

Thanks

Bryan


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## trainer_will (Aug 26, 2008)

those look like a really cool head and the blades look lots more durable than the original blades. Also, being new to the archery retail field, but not new to archery, i enjoy seeing the new developments in the field, and this looks like a good one.


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## arrowds (Mar 4, 2008)

Yes, They can be resharpened.....the blades are SOLID titanum...very thick, very strong...even when the hollow ground leading edges are "Sharpened" away..you can still keep sharpening them and using them. 

Any minimum legal poundage pull will deliver lethal kinetic energy if you hit them in the head or neck area. As for shooting thru the mesh.... I don't recommend it. It can be done...but in hunting turkeys...they don't care if the mesh is removed so my vote goes to eliminate Mr. Murphy from ruining a hunt and just not shoot thru it. 

And thanks for the retail interest in pursuit of new innovations...can't sell them if they aren't on the shelves...but more importantly being sold by archery professionals who've done thier homework, understand the new technology and pass it on to the bowhunters who see them on the shelves and begin asking questions.


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## madarchery (May 28, 2003)

May have to try these heads again. Like above the first heads sucked. You could guarantee head breakage every shot. I tossed them out and sold the 3rd unused.

Maybe I will try again?


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## AzDiamondHeat (May 10, 2008)

I know I do not use them for there intended purpose, but I do hope the new ones are stronger as claimed. If so, you may have an untapped market for general use. Looks like we will have to wait and see after people start field testing them.


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## GSLAM95 (Oct 31, 2004)

madarchery said:


> May have to try these heads again. Like above the first heads sucked. You could guarantee head breakage every shot. I tossed them out and sold the 3rd unused.
> 
> Maybe I will try again?


If the standard heads were shot into an old couch cushion, a bat of insulation or anything of equal volume there was no issue for practicing with the old guillotine.
I have taken over 20 birds with the 125 grain original version and it worked great. 
The New concept of the titanium version looks awesome as long as the heads don't bend after hitting a bird as there are no longer replacement blades with this new design. It is also unfortanate that we are losing 1" of cutting diameter going down from 4"to 3". Look forward to seeing them in person and shooting them Matt.


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## arrowds (Mar 4, 2008)

Okay....the art work is done...what do ya'll think? It's getting printed on T Shirts as I type this........

Now get off the computer and go climb a tree! Have a great Thanksgiving to all!


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## GSLAM95 (Oct 31, 2004)

Looks good Matt:thumbs_up


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## arrowds (Mar 4, 2008)

GSLAM....you know all ya gots ta do is show up at my booth...I got your T-Shiirt and "Field Test" packs awaitin on ya! Look forward to seeing how many you kill with the same broadhead! I don't know how you're going to top that video of this past spring....it was awesome!
Now I'm off to hunting camp to do some "Field Testing" of my own! I'll chat with ya'll in three weeks when I get back...


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## mikesohm/magnus (Jun 13, 2004)

i wish matt the very best with his head. this is what america is all about, competition makes us all better, makes us the best we can be. this is why american such a wonderful place to live. thanx


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## arrowds (Mar 4, 2008)

NOW....I'll attempt to get this thread back on the main subject...My release of the new Diamond Edition Guillotine has them available RIGHT NOW! We've also got a bunch of the new T-Shirts in with that logo on the back! 

Anyone have any questions specific to the new product information and photographs I've release here?

I look forward to ya'll experiencing the success we've had with them on small game and turkeys!


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## Ack (May 13, 2005)

Matt.....sent you a PM. :thumbs_up


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## arrowds (Mar 4, 2008)

Latest test on video for the new Diamond Edition Guillotine.....would you say that if we can kill an Emu...we should be able to kill any other bird you will be hunting? Yep...here is the test criteria I setup.
Beginner archer....just got his first bow this summer...only practiced occasionally with field points...NEVER been on a bowhunt.
Had him take four practice shots with our arrow shaft (300 Spine) cut just to in front of his bow riser allowing clearance...fletched with three four inch gateway shield cut feathers full helical. (Full helical not required)
Unscrewed field point...screwed on one Diamond Edition Guillotine...NO PRACTICE SHOT TAKEN.....no adjustment to bow done at all....
The 80 plus pound Emu was in an enclosure about a half acre in size...not a hunt...but a test. The rancher wanted it dead...we wanted to test the broadhead.
An 18 yard shot...hit the Emu right under the chin...split the lower beak in two but did not decapitate the substantially thick neck bone from the head...It could not hold its head up but the bird bounced off a fence it was near...stumbled ten yards to bump into a cross fence...hit the dirt and never even twitched...from impact to dirt..less than fifteen seconds! 
Condition of broadhead? We show this on video...simply bloody...does not require any sharpening and can be used to go kill another emu right now! 
Tough, durable, deadly and so accurate....no practice is needed...even from beginning bowhunters! 
The video can be seen at the ATA show of which I'm currently at...and will post it upon my return from this show....until next time....good hunting to all!
Is it spring turkeys season yet? I got me a honey hole in Nebraska just screaming for me to return to!!!


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## Hook Em (Dec 1, 2005)

Is your shop in Liberty Hill? I drive through there on my way to my lease in Mason!!


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## arrowds (Mar 4, 2008)

Hook em.....just give me a call next time you're headed thru.... be glad to have you out, pop a cold one...swap a few stories........probably got a few goodies like T shirts and such for your efforts! Course...gotta ask that sixty four thousand dollar question first!! Which broadhead you shoot currently??? HA! Too funny! I don't care what ya shoot! ...just stop on by and look forward to meeting ya!


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## Hook Em (Dec 1, 2005)

arrowds said:


> Hook em.....just give me a call next time you're headed thru.... be glad to have you out, pop a cold one...swap a few stories........probably got a few goodies like T shirts and such for your efforts! Course...gotta ask that sixty four thousand dollar question first!! Which broadhead you shoot currently??? HA! Too funny! I don't care what ya shoot! ...just stop on by and look forward to meeting ya!


Actually I shoot the Rage two-blade right now, but I don't know what I will use for Thunderchickens this year! I can't wait till turkey season gets here!!! Your new head looks pretty sweet!


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## parker_hunter (Jul 20, 2007)

*Double G*

Hey Matt,

I met you down at Double G's a few months back when you were telling us about these. May have to pick me up a set from Paul and Marjo and try to get me a gobbler this spring with one

James


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## Jason Balazs (Feb 10, 2007)

I'll tell you all that I gave these things a great look over while I was at the ATA show. These things are solid as well as storable. They unscrew to allow both blades to store in your quiver. There is no need for a special quiver anymore. 

Plus, you can kill more than one turkey, emu, elephant (just kidding) or what ever with the same head and not have to replace the blades like on the old one. If a blade gets a nick in it, all you have to do is unscrew the head, turn the blade upside down and now you have a new blade. Once that blade is messed up, just run a file over it to sharpen. Bingo, the cost that you save on replacement blades sells itself. I can't wait to test these things this spring. I will do it on my site and have a hunting scene from me hunting with them to cover it all (Hopefully I will see turkeys.ukey:

Awesome job Matt!!


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## emtrchr (Apr 17, 2007)

Just got off the phone with Matt and I am really excited about getting these. Super nice guy, and he took the time to answer all my questions and make sure i am set up right. Wish more archery manufactures had this kind of customer service. There will be turkey heads flyin this spring, no doubt.


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## Chad Forsdahl (Jan 14, 2009)

i recently attened the ata trade show and found it so incredible. i stopped by the guillotine booth and talked to the owner. I found the diamond guillotine to not be sharp. here is how he explained it. "you know sharp blades is typically like a math equation, 2 plus 2 plus 2 equals 6. well i have changed the physics of sharpness, now with my diamond guillotine the equation is 1 plus 3 plus 2 equals 6. no longer is sharpness a prerequiset to cutting. Force is the intangible which cuts off the head of a turkey as an exsample" 

I asked the owner wouldnt it be better to be sharp and he told me no. much like the broadhead he showed me the atom, sharpness was not a important part. also i asked about the price 38 or 39 for 2 broadheads. he said basically you have 4 broadheads. i asked now wait you cant change the physics on the number of heads your paying for. there is 2 per package not 4. he explained because of the durability you have 4. I simply didnot agree with that. you are buying 2 you have 2. he become rather upset and was not nice to say the least. than he went on a rampage about how he was the only true enginneer in the industry. I am new to bowhunting but i have never encountered someone who is so much into himself. 

i am not into slamming anyone here, but after reading the previous post. the owner of the guillotine is far from a nice guy.

i think the owner of guillotine needs to call up gary at slick trick cuz i love the slick trick and gary is a nice guy!!!


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## Jason Balazs (Feb 10, 2007)

Chad Forsdahl said:


> i recently attened the ata trade show and found it so incredible. i stopped by the guillotine booth and talked to the owner. I found the diamond guillotine to not be sharp. here is how he explained it. "you know sharp blades is typically like a math equation, 2 plus 2 plus 2 equals 6. well i have changed the physics of sharpness, now with my diamond guillotine the equation is 1 plus 3 plus 2 equals 6. no longer is sharpness a prerequiset to cutting. Force is the intangible which cuts off the head of a turkey as an exsample"
> 
> I asked the owner wouldnt it be better to be sharp and he told me no. much like the broadhead he showed me the atom, sharpness was not a important part. also i asked about the price 38 or 39 for 2 broadheads. he said basically you have 4 broadheads. i asked now wait you cant change the physics on the number of heads your paying for. there is 2 per package not 4. he explained because of the durability you have 4. I simply didnot agree with that. you are buying 2 you have 2. he become rather upset and was not nice to say the least. than he went on a rampage about how he was the only true enginneer in the industry. I am new to bowhunting but i have never encountered someone who is so much into himself.
> 
> ...


Looks like someone from Slick trick sent him over. Go bash somewhere else.. :spam2:


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## MSegal (Sep 26, 2008)

Chad Forsdahl said:


> i recently attened the ata trade show and found it so incredible. i stopped by the guillotine booth and talked to the owner. I found the diamond guillotine to not be sharp. here is how he explained it. "you know sharp blades is typically like a math equation, 2 plus 2 plus 2 equals 6. well i have changed the physics of sharpness, now with my diamond guillotine the equation is 1 plus 3 plus 2 equals 6. no longer is sharpness a prerequiset to cutting. Force is the intangible which cuts off the head of a turkey as an exsample"
> 
> I asked the owner wouldnt it be better to be sharp and he told me no. much like the broadhead he showed me the atom, sharpness was not a important part. also i asked about the price 38 or 39 for 2 broadheads. he said basically you have 4 broadheads. i asked now wait you cant change the physics on the number of heads your paying for. there is 2 per package not 4. he explained because of the durability you have 4. I simply didnot agree with that. you are buying 2 you have 2. he become rather upset and was not nice to say the least. than he went on a rampage about how he was the only true enginneer in the industry. I am new to bowhunting but i have never encountered someone who is so much into himself.
> 
> ...


Well I don't follow or belong to any cult of brand loyalty like I see on this site but this seems kind of crazy. You are describing how my weedeater cuts, not calling you a liar but it does seem strange for anyone in the broadhead business to go by a "Weedwacker" theory when it comes to cutting. I've killed a couple turkey and cutting through feathers is really the biggest obsticle other then the wing butt, I've had mechanicals not penetrate well becuse of it.

I will say this though, I've run the course of COC heads this last year and tried some titainium heads from Steelforce. I can't resharpen them to save my butt. I've tried everything, Gatco, Lansky, KME, diamond stones and natural. I'm good at sharpening knives and broadheads but I haven't figured out how to sharpen titainium, any hints?


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## arrowds (Mar 4, 2008)

Okay...it is QUITE clear that if you come to ask me questions...you should be prepared to learn something as that is the basic premise I assume you approached me under...and asked ME a QUESTION....to learn something you didn't understand after seeing something you couldn't figure out....It is VERY obvious you never intended to listen. You don't have the capacity to learn or willingness to learn...sorry can't help ya...I learn something every single day and enjoy not knowing everything and hunting for answers to learn what I don't know about. 
If you prefer to get on here in a public forum, cherry pick a few words/sentence structures/math formulas, twist them to conform to support your less than ethical efforts in attempts to condemn me as a person, my designs as not viable and promote a competing broadhead company....from where I sit reading your post...it clearly demonstrates not only your inability to reason...but phenominal lack of ability and tact in applying intellingence both in technical AND common sense situations. 
While I'll most likely be condemned for responding in this manner....it is quite funny how folks don't speak thier minds in a public setting but constantly snipe from forums where they can display thier "Expertise" with NO accountability for those actions.


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## Jason Balazs (Feb 10, 2007)

You know the internet really makes people feel brave. Like you stated Matt, the guy saw you at the show and could not ask the questions there. I guess he figured he wanted to everyone to hear his questions except for the man who it is intended for. 

Oh yeah, I like the end where he says he is not slamming anyone, then praises Slick Trick..:slice:


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## arrowds (Mar 4, 2008)

msegal....its not exactly a "Weedeater" theory...but the same manner a round fishing line wead eater cuts weeds is basic physics in how our diamond ground, honed and stropped Nitinol razor wire cuts. A simple analogy...a butter knife won't cut you in handling normally will it? But speed that edge up over your hand to the speed an arrow travels with the same pressure as in forcing a broadhead thru an animal...in excess of 125 miles an hour via longbow or recurve and well in excess of 200 miles an hour off a compound or crossbow....see what I mean? It cuts wicked to the bone... Velocity is a variable, Edge is a variable, pressure is a variable..you can have differing amounts of those such as velocity of the butter knife and be safe in handling the edge...or speed it up and cut you to the bone...
The math Mr Chad was ridiculing was Cutting = Edge + Velocity + Pressure
All I did with my new Diamond Edition Guillotine and Atom Razor wire was make my grind angle less steep...therefore safe to handle and more durable an edge...yet have a ground honed and stropped edge to easily do lethal capillary level cutting as seen on the tons of animals shown on our DVD at our booth....if we don't cut as he claims...how were those animals seen dying on the video from contact to dirt with no editing like we repeatedly show happen? Once is a cherry picked deal....hundreds of animals must mean we did something right. As for sharpening titanium...diamond stone is the best..the finer the grit..the better the result...
In normal handling by humans an "Edged" sharp metal...the speed/pressure is typically very small values....on the end of an arrow..those are HUGE numbers...easily causing lethal, capillary level cutting to occur.
Sorry your post got chunked inbetween that dudes post and my response...But I hope I answered your question..if not....PM me and I'll be more explicit with details and clear examples.


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## MSegal (Sep 26, 2008)

I figured there had to be more to it. Would really like some tips on sharpening titainium though. Any more light you can shed on the cutting would be helpful as well, since its been brought up, not that I'm asking you to help me sharpen my Steelforce heads.


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## MSegal (Sep 26, 2008)

guess we are posting at the same time. My last post should have been about two above yours. Thanks for the response.


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## arrowds (Mar 4, 2008)

msegal,

in sharpening titanium....we use ultrafine diamond grind wheels.... We utilize a mixture of fluids to eliminate both heat and reduce friction allowing fine control of results. I'd recommend you give a machine shop supply house a call as they have the lubricants developed for cooling the cutting of differing metals....just tell them you want coolant/lubricant for cutting titanium/steel and you can add a few drops on your diamond stone.... ours is a proprietary mixture developed specifically for our application on Nitnol...A nickel/titanium allow that allows us to memory shape our wire after sharpening...
Beyond that...I'd say give the good folks at Steelforce a call...I enjoy seeing/chatting with them every year as again I did this year at the ATA show....great folks who'll take care of your needs on thier fine products.


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## Ack (May 13, 2005)

Matt...just curious when these will be available in stores?


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## arrowds (Mar 4, 2008)

Ack...We're already shipping in volume around the country to those stores whom simply call us up and order them.....especially in view of the ATA show just ending where the pro shops whom attended got to see/feel and watch video and such whom immediately placed thier orders...They were amazed at the simplicity/toughness/features and benefits of the new Diamond Edition in comparison to our original Guillotine. If your local shop didn't attend the ATA show nor knows about these....just ask them to give me a call....we'll be glad to send them info/DVD and set them right up after they have had a chance to review this new technology applied to loppin heads off!


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## Chad Forsdahl (Jan 14, 2009)

first of all, jason balazs. i donot shoot slick tricks, i said gary is a nice guy and he is, i talked to him at the ata trade show. to matt-everything i said on the above post was asked and talked about at the ata trade show, with my name because that is who i am. 

now can i ask a couple of questions and i am asking- with the money it costs for the new diamond guillotine-honestly shouldnt they be sharp?? instead of paying 38 or 39 for 2 heads and than having to go and get the proper tools or see a machinest to have them sharp. the reason why i posted also was when i didnt understand or disagreed with you matt on your the blades dont need to be sharp you got upset. so now i also want to ask you how do you compare the diamond guillotine against the magnus bullhead since magnus and you are the two heads in the category of turkey and lopping heads off. ty


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## MSegal (Sep 26, 2008)

Call me anal but I have to have a sharp edge for hunting. Don't think I could bring myself to do otherwise. I did ask around today about sharpening Ti and searched on the net a bit but didn't find much for answers. Got laughed at by one machinist, said I'd be better off sharpening aluminum. Seems Ti has a low hardness which makes it difficult to get a good edge to start with and it tends to load up stones, referred to as "Gummy" which explains the trouble I've been having with the Steel Force heads.


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## drockw (Sep 3, 2008)

arrowds, sent you a pm.

Derek


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## GBBL GBL (Apr 22, 2006)

I have had superb luck with the Magnus Bullheads. Recorded a Grand Slam in 2008 in 7 weeks using this head. They fly perfect and none of the birds took a step after the shot.....THEY ARE AWESOME!!


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## Chad Forsdahl (Jan 14, 2009)

i just dont get it why you wont answer my questions mr guillotine, all are legitimate questions.


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## arrowds (Mar 4, 2008)

Okay Chad...you're smarter than me....I'll ask you a very simple question so you can teach me to be as smart as you...but first a question of which I and everyone already knows the answer to who's been fishing... 

Can you cut yourself with monofilament fishing line? 

Of course you can!!! We all know it can cut you DEEP! ....so here's your question to answer...

HOW does this actually happen? How is this possible? NO SCALPEL SHARP EDGE!!! Isn't all fishing line round and DULL??? And it cuts? Not possible according to you...please explain this.....I'm anxious to learn...Isn't this a legitimate question in trying to understand the basics of cutting? 

I'm waiting for your answer........:set1_thinking:


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## MSegal (Sep 26, 2008)

Educate me please! Since I was a kid I was taught to keep broadheads sharp. I can grasp the concept but have a hard time understanding how effective it could be.

In the summer I spend a lot of time striper fishing and have cut myself many times with mono line but I've also cut my self with knives filleting fish. A knife cuts a hell of a lot better, I've never fillet a fish with mono. 

I'm having a hard time understanding how something as dull as mono can be as effective in a animal as a sharp edge that can hold its sharpness. Doesn't the feathers on a turkey compress and become hard to cut?


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## GBBL GBL (Apr 22, 2006)

Wow....that kind of response by a company REALLY makes me want to try his product. :mg::mg::mg::mg::mg::mg:

I will keep shooting my Bullheads after reading arrowds' attitude toward potential CUSTOMERS!!!


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## MSegal (Sep 26, 2008)

Can you sharpen Bullheads? Are they sharp when you get them?


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## GBBL GBL (Apr 22, 2006)

MSegal said:


> Can you sharpen Bullheads? Are they sharp when you get them?


Yes and yes.


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## MSegal (Sep 26, 2008)

Okay, the typical AT question...have you used them?


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## MSegal (Sep 26, 2008)

GBBL GBL said:


> I have had superb luck with the Magnus Bullheads. Recorded a Grand Slam in 2008 in 7 weeks using this head. They fly perfect and none of the birds took a step after the shot.....THEY ARE AWESOME!!


Sorry, somehow missed this. Guess I was caught up in the cutting thing.


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## arrowds (Mar 4, 2008)

msegal,

You use a fishing comparison...great opportunity to provide an already well known and respected company whom debuted new technology years ago that is EXACTLY the same technology I applied to my broadhead edges. Please look up the Mustad Ultra Point technology as related to what they did in reversing the trend to make hooks more and more ultra fine slivers at the point and market claims of sharper is better to compete for hook sales...all MUSTAD did was to put a LESS STEEP GRIND ANGLE on the end of thier hook...they realized they achieve the same end result...penetrated easily and hooked fish...but improved the durability of the point exponentially by leaving more metal under the point to strengthen it. This is the fundamental mis-understood fact about edges applied to a broadhead where you've been told for years there is only razor sharp or dull...in reality..there are many differing degrees of sharpness that easily satisfy the task of accomplishing capillary level cutting...just as there were degrees of sharpness for a hook to still penetrate easily and add the benefit of durability and re-usability...I'm simply the first to apply this to broadhead edges. Ask Kevin Van Dam about his confidence in a hook deemed significanlty duller than Mustad's competitors...
Does this make sense or answer in any small manner your thoughts there CAN be a different and viable result for an edge than what you were told your whole life?


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## Jason Balazs (Feb 10, 2007)

GBBL GBL said:


> Yes and yes.



Looks like a thread highjacker here!


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## Chad Forsdahl (Jan 14, 2009)

jason why is it when someone disagrees with you or matt they are thread hi jackers??? and matt why cant you just be friendly instead of a jerk. no question you have made my mind up. and i wont ask any other questions of you sir. any interest i had in the diamond guillotine is gone thanks to you.


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## lost n mi (Nov 17, 2007)

madarchery said:


> May have to try these heads again. Like above the first heads sucked. You could guarantee head breakage every shot. I tossed them out and sold the 3rd unused.
> 
> Maybe I will try again?



i had the same problem ,but i think i tossed my last one


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## arrowds (Mar 4, 2008)

Look Chad.... 
You going to answer the question I pose to you? We are all waiting to get the thread back on topic....that topic you and others have defined as critical to broadheads with zero doubt you know exactly what you are talking about.....please don't call me a jerk for asking YOU a simple question in view of ME not understanding your claims that I believe are unfounded and not true based off my experience/study....it is clear that if you do NOT answer such a simple question...You have ZERO credibility to support the slander you posted in this string as seen by all above. 
I ask one more time....

How does fishing line cut your hand if it does not even have an edge?


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## arrowds (Mar 4, 2008)

Oh yea...did you look up the trivia on the fact Mustad Hooks have a significantly "Duller" feel to them than any other hook out there? Yet still accomplish penetration with no deformity/dulling of the hook thru the thick gill plates/hard mouth areas of a bass, bouncing off rocks/debris on the bottom of the lake and still be factory "Sharp"? No comment on that one? 

Okay...sorry to distract...I look forward to you answering the question on fishing line cutting your hand for starters....


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## arrowds (Mar 4, 2008)

We hand these to kids everyday...it can cut you deeply...yet be handled safely by kids each day in school by the millions....

Please help me to understand how a piece of paper can cut you? Yet its dull to the touch, cannot shave hair and does not meet your mandate requiring such scalpel edge of sharpness? 

Come on Chad...in view of the facts as you state that I don't understand this cutting thing...please help me and others understand the process in a manner other than "Cause I say its so".....


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## parker_hunter (Jul 20, 2007)

*Stumped*

Hey Matt,

Looks like you stumped him since he has not answered. My family and I met you down at Double Gs and we know you are a pretty cool, nice guy. I will be buying me a set of them as soon as I get back down to the shop. Heck with what anyone else thinks, I'm about trying it out myself and making my own decisions about a product. Good luck in your sales and to [email protected]$l with what the others think about you or the products you have invented. Sounds like some HATERS!!!!!!:angry:

James


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## Chad Forsdahl (Jan 14, 2009)

no james he hasnt stumped me. the reasoning that mr futteree is using doesnt make sense. if this theory is true, than a piece of paper would provide the same cutting because you cut your skin with paper cuts all the time. 

also if his theory is true than do you not think most broadhead manuf would do the same thing and save a ton of money in not having to manuf their blades????

cutting action and hemorage(spelling) is always been by sharpness of blade. if you want to believe that mr futteree more power to you, but for you to try and bs the hunting public, you have not bsed me nor do i think you will bs most if not all etical bowhunters


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## Jason Balazs (Feb 10, 2007)

Wow Chad, 

For you to downgrade something without even trying it, you are a big man. 

Don't get me wrong, when I first looked at the Atom from Matt I thought the same thing. Wow it is dull, however, after shooting animals with this broadhead and watching blood spray better than any other broadhead, it changed my mine. 

I don't know what you do for a job or even as a hobby, but I test outdoor products and this one has passed my test. 

A few questions for you? 
How long have you been bowhunting? 
How many animals have you taken? 
What broadhead do you shoot? 
Have you ever thought outside the box? 
Have you ever heard of the FOB? I ask this last one becuase it is different than most arrow fletching, but has to be the best arrow stablizer I have found. 
If you have not tried something, then you should be open to new concepts of things that work. The term is, "Don't bash it until you have really tried it!"


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## arrowds (Mar 4, 2008)

chad,
Thanks for responding and admitting that "Paper cuts"...despite not shaving hair, despite not shaving fingernails, etc. We are making progress...I'll ignore your attempts to actually not answer the question by saying I'm full of BS or all the other manf do it this way so it must be fact....wrong......these are common verbal tricks used by those whom talk the talk..but can't walk the walk in supporting thier claims of "fact". Focus on the question please....
HOW does paper cut you? A simple question...please help me understand this.
Just one more "Fact" for you to consider before continuing to say we are unethical or full of "BS". 
This photo was emailed to me by a gentleman whom exactly like you...I met at the ATA show...he was curious, didn't understand the "Cutting edge Technology". He bought a couple packages, took them back to Spain to hunt his favorite animal..wild boar hogs...shot thru both front shoulder plates for a "Test" of the compressiblity of our edges as well as the Cutting capabilties of a safe to handle edge....He didn't get in my face and tell me how to design broadheads and what's wrong with them...he simply went and took one shot....here is the results in the photo he sent and his words used to express the performance of the Atom were exactly this...""Simply Exceptional"....Just thought I'd give you perspective on how different an approach you and others on AT have taken than another gentleman with many years of global bowhunting experience clearly more accomplished than you or I combined when it comes to putting arrows into animals and seeing the results. 
Okay...back to the main question Chad...HOW does the paper cut?


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## MSegal (Sep 26, 2008)

I've shot animals (Many) with sharp heads and some not so sharp. Sharp heads have always performed far better for me, so I'm not going to comment any further on people saying dull heads work better but the one thing I will bring up is, "Sharp" is in some state regulations in regards to a broadhead. I don't think the fishing line or "Paper cut" thing is going to hold any water if I was to encouter a game warden.

I'm starting to think this is just a marketing ploy because you can't get Ti sharp. I keep asking how to get it sharp and nobody can tell me how, not even people that make blades out of it? I'm starting to feel like I'm getting jerked around here.


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## LONGSHOT ARTIST (Aug 28, 2007)

man that looks mean!


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## Jason Balazs (Feb 10, 2007)

MSegal said:


> I've shot animals (Many) with sharp heads and some not so sharp. Sharp heads have always performed far better for me, so I'm not going to comment any further on people saying dull heads work better but the one thing I will bring up is, "Sharp" is in some state regulations in regards to a broadhead. I don't think the fishing line or "Paper cut" thing is going to hold any water if I was to encouter a game warden.
> 
> I'm starting to think this is just a marketing ploy because you can't get Ti sharp. I keep asking how to get it sharp and nobody can tell me how, not even people that make blades out of it? I'm starting to feel like I'm getting jerked around here.


:thumbs_do


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## arrowds (Mar 4, 2008)

Msegal,

The words you type regarding "Sharper providing better results" have no basis of fact to support them....and despite the FACT I stated game laws were changed in three states after UNBIASED and FACTUAL review of the sharp edges on my broadheads...guess what? They were easily accepted based off the "FACTS" and truth of delivering the exact cut any other design delivers. So lets quit the touchy feely type argument and stick to that chain of questions where you either prove beyond doubt the basis of the mandate for hair shaving is false or true...so far..our science which involves scanning electron microscopes shows the mandate of sharpness to be absolutely false....I don"t dispute you need an edge>>>BUT I do dispute easily with proof you are wrong in your assumptions and claims that there is only ONE degree or level of sharpness...you are wrong....there are easily many varying degrees of sharpness to still easily accomplish lethal, ethical, capillary level cutting when launched off a bow and forced thru an animal.....and thousands of animals such as seen in the above photo continue to easily prove all the armchair "Experts" wrong...it is not a "Marketing" ploy...you want marketing...talk to Randy Ulmer about marketing others broadheads whom were touted as "Perfect" and the only one ever needed....at least at 100 yards...I'll hit the target EVERY time....if you haven't noticed...I don't "Market" my broadheads like others....I sell globally based off word of mouth due to their actually WORKING as I state. What part of "Simply Exceptional" to describe performance did you not understand from an unbiased, global traveling, very well experienced bowhunter? 
Any of the talkers whom continue to condemn want to stay on the subject line and actually answer the basic question which will lead to the the truth?
How does a piece of paper cut you so deeply? But is safe to handle, does not shave hair or even grab your fingernail when drawn across it? All your other words continue attempts to distract...answer the question please.
With respect to sharpening titanium...wow...that is a stretch in attempts to hit this from another angle....please...just answer the cutting question....
How does paper cut you?


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## HOKIEHUNTER07 (Oct 4, 2005)

Matt,
I see where you're going with the whole:

Cutting = Speed + Pressure + Edge, but I still don't fully grasp what you're getting at. In order for all things to be equal,
Speed("dull") + Pressure("dull") + Edge ("dull") = Speed("sharp") + Pressure("sharp") + Edge("sharp"). If the edge is reduced are you speed up or adding more pressure somewhere to make the equation equal?

I understand todays bows offer enough speed and pressure to take out most animals, leaving a little flexibility in the edge portion of the equation. People like German Kinetics and G5 are maximizing sharpness to get as much out of the equation as possible. For killing turkeys and smaller deer, I don't think you need a tremenous amount of cutting. Therefore you're products work wonders. Shooting an animal the size of an elk, moose, or bear I would be very hesitant to not use the sharpest broadhead available. 

That said, I do not see how you can say a relatively dull edge offers the same cutting performance as a sharp edge without changing speed or pressure.

Hokie


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## arrowds (Mar 4, 2008)

Hokie, The assumption that "All things must be equal" in the formula isn't quite correct....the formula demonstrates three variables when added to gether to provide a work result..or action...in this case, cutting.
Velocity + Pressure + Edge = Cutting... The variable of speed (velocity) in how we simply handle/install/replace blades is not enough to allow the satisfying of the cutting process to begin...but upon launched off a bow/crossbow....to well in excess of 125 ~ 250 miles per hour provide a ton of insurance that would allow you in the formula to reduce pressure and reduce the "Sharpness" of the edge, yet still equal cutting to the capillary level to occur...does that clear it up for you? The magnitudes of energy at even those speeds from recurves/longbows allows a huge margin of error in the other two variables yet still cut exactly like a scalpel. 
With respect to German Kinetics and G5...they simply are reacting to the reality of marketing resistance to sales in their products exactly like I am experiencing....thier "Edges" were just fine as original and killed animals around the globe..but bowhunters "Feel" they need to be sharper and as such..they are responding with sharper designs to gain market share. I also have taken this into consideration and responded with a larger diameter wire, put steeper grind angles on it...but won't compromise safety in handling as our science and proof of performance in the woods/safari's easily prove lethality is identical to that of any other "Scalpel" sharp design/model. And we provided the ability to pick us up, nock us and shoot another right now with the added strength of our edge staying a lethal edge...

I conclusion....we have not changed speed or pressure..those are the same numbers as any other broadhead design enjoys off the same bow...all we did was vary the grind angle reducing the hand speed felt edge....the fact the speed and pressure as so great of numbers off a bow...allow us to reduce the edge variable with NO loss of cutting to the capillary level at impact/penetration on animals of any size on any continent. does this make more sense to you now? 
Thanks for the follow up and look forward to your thoughts on this reply.


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## HOKIEHUNTER07 (Oct 4, 2005)

Matt,
That's what I figured you were going to say, and I agree to a point. I think today's bows provide enough energy that a rubber blunt would kill a turkey when shot in the head. Granted, that doesn't provide capillary cutting, but the energy is there all the same. It kinda goes to the point of, "if my arrow is buried 10 inches in the ground I'm not using much of the arrows energy" argument. I won't argue your results with the atom and GG, as I'm sure they will do their jobs just fine as far as cutting goes. I will however say that I do prefer sharp blades if for no other reason than I like resharpening them. 

I was able to buy a pack of 100 grain atoms for about $7 in a clearance rack at a local bowstore about 2 years ago. The concept is interesting, but I quickly broke the razor wire shooting through foam. They never made it into my deer hunting quiver.


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## MSegal (Sep 26, 2008)

How does paper cut me? Well that depends on the paper. This example of a mechanism of cutting is quite silly. Not all paper will cut the same. With different thicknesses of paper you are really still dealing with different grades of sharpness. As I understand it, the sharper something is, the less pressure it takes to make it cut something. In regards to paper, the thinner it is and more rigid it is the better it will cut you, so even with paper you could say some is sharper than another.

In regards to a steel, the thinner the edge the sharper it is, same as paper. The less pressure it takes to cut the more it will cut rather than push, the more it cuts the more effective it is at causing bleeding and letting air out. So if I was to attempt to kill something with paper I would use legal bound rather than construction paper but I'm not attempting to kill anything with paper.


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## Jason Balazs (Feb 10, 2007)

HOKIEHUNTER07 said:


> Matt,
> That's what I figured you were going to say, and I agree to a point. I think today's bows provide enough energy that a rubber blunt would kill a turkey when shot in the head. Granted, that doesn't provide capillary cutting, but the energy is there all the same. It kinda goes to the point of, "if my arrow is buried 10 inches in the ground I'm not using much of the arrows energy" argument. I won't argue your results with the atom and GG, as I'm sure they will do their jobs just fine as far as cutting goes. I will however say that I do prefer sharp blades if for no other reason than I like resharpening them.
> 
> I was able to buy a pack of 100 grain atoms for about $7 in a clearance rack at a local bowstore about 2 years ago. The concept is interesting, but I quickly broke the razor wire shooting through foam. They never made it into my deer hunting quiver.


Hokie,

He has redone the wire. It is more thicker and has more of an edge on it. The first generation of the wire was not as solid to allow it to bend out of the way easier if it contacted bone. However, it was breaking, so Matt made it thicker and increased the edge of the blades. Now it will shoot like a dream.


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## Chad Forsdahl (Jan 14, 2009)

legitimate questions how do you compare yourself and your guilltine mr futtere to the magnus bullhead and mike sohm at magnus


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## timmothy (Sep 10, 2005)

Hey Matt the new blades look awsome. I can't wait to use them. Do they still use the straws? I've been using the heads you gave me a few years ago. I guess mine have held up well. Your heads are the best on the market. Thanks for continuing to put new concepts out there and for not backing down from the folks who can't seem to grasp that any new idea could perhaps be as good or in my opinion better then what they have been using for the last 20 years. Other then the size most broadheads are about the same as those used 40 or 50 years ago. All of our other equipment has changed so much in the last few years it's great that the actual lethal portion has now too. Have a good one matt, and when can I buy some?


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## arrowds (Mar 4, 2008)

timothy,

Thanks for the kudo's....you can ask your local archery shop...we're shippin fast as we can make them. If they don't carry them...just have them give us a call....be glad to set them up.
As for the straws....nope...the "Diamond" shape allows us to control the flow of air at the molecular level...meaning...just practice with field points....go hunt with this...we can shoot it in excess of 400 feet per second...dead nuts to that of the field point.....no adjustment to the bow! 
Good hunting this season!


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## drockw (Sep 3, 2008)

arrowds, 
i sent you a pm a few weeks back i believe... Did you recieve it?

Derek


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## arrowds (Mar 4, 2008)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tYsK85Vdg-4

Okay....here is a link to a bunch of birds getting whacked with our Guillotine and you can see a few turkey hunts/Emu getting whacked with the new Diamond Edition Guillotine...plus see how easy it is to go from ready to quiver back to ready to hunt positions as well....

Its getting close to head loppin time! :rock-on:


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## ShootingABN! (Nov 1, 2005)

I ordered a pack today! New heads, know I just new a spring turkey to walk in and stand still.....:secret:


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## MOBIGBUCKS (Aug 12, 2006)

These are awesome guys....They fly like darts if you have proper spine setup. Very tough and aerodynamic.:darkbeer:


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## ShootingABN! (Nov 1, 2005)

*Test shot them today!*

They fly great!


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## jpc (Aug 6, 2013)

Do you plan to make the diamond guillotine broadhead in deep six for easton injexion arrows?


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