# Unmarked 3D archers setup course/shoot for award?



## buzltyr (Dec 31, 2002)

Am I wrong? But, I do not believe that archers who set up an unmarked 3D course should be allowed to shoot for awards against other archers.

I have seen a disqualification for just such in offense at the State level.

How about at a National level? Upcoming event has 5 archers setting animals out both mornings of the event and stakes will be set the day ahead. They will be shooting against others in their respective classes for a National Title.

Any thoughts?


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## PAJason (Jan 23, 2010)

I do not agree with guys setting up, then shooting the course in competition. Too many what if's! Plus they use rangefinders in placing stakes.


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## atennishu (Sep 24, 2010)

I know at our club the guys that set the range NEVER compete in unknown classes if they had ANY part in setting the range, just makes for bad policy to do other wise.


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## mountainman7 (Feb 15, 2013)

Never ok to shoot for score on unknown if you helped set the course. Period. If the people that set the course want to shoot known distance , then that is not a problem at all for me.


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## John-in-VA (Mar 27, 2003)

I worked on a range we would set the targets but never the shooting stakes.The owner would come in and set them after we were finished setting the targets .

Funny thing is I never shot any of my best scores on the range I helped out on .

I dont see anything wrong with it .If there doing it that way .


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## rockyw (Sep 16, 2013)

I agree, I knew a club that the guys would setup, shoot it a few times and then shoot on Sunday for score with everyone else. It's far and few, most clubs have rules about that.


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## Supermag1 (Jun 11, 2009)

I agree that if you're the one checking the stakes with a range finder then you shouldn't shoot for score. The problem is that in most clubs there are so few people already doing the work of setting up that if you made them ineligible to shoot it, there would be even less to set it up (if anyone). BTW, I don't know what it is either but I'm the same as John-in-VA and never shoot my best scores at shoots that I've helped setup.

Remember that most of the archers that have the dedication to come in and put in the hours needed to setup a good 3D shoot got that way because they love to shoot 3D, not watch other people do it.


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## grantmac (May 31, 2007)

Someone placing the animals should be allowed to shoot. Placing and ranging the stakes no.

-Grant


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## buzltyr (Dec 31, 2002)

Update:
This is a National Championship we are talking about. Archers that are registered to shoot are setting the animals on the lanes. Each lane has a bow holder post set at the beginning of the lane. Two of these archers were caught blatantly step off yardage from the bow holder to their stake by an archer that did set put the animals. Needless to say the two in question are leading their class. Again, for a National Title.

At the meeting before the shoot and archer asked that if on short targets, could an archer shoot his arrow, walk down and score it, pull it, and then let the next archer shoot. This to save damaging arrows blocking the 12 ring. Unbelievably, this was approved! Are you kidding me??!!
This would require the two score keepers to walk down as well to confirm and record the score. Might as well drag the 4th in the group along so that everyone could step off the yardage for their shot.

Just to make note with what Super said. Yes, every club has very few workers to set up events. But, the host club has more than enough money to pay people to do the set up to avoid controversy and put forth an event worthy of a National Championship.


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## buzltyr (Dec 31, 2002)

Update:
This is a National Championship we are talking about. Archers that are registered to shoot are setting the animals on the lanes. Each lane has a bow holder post set at the beginning of the lane. Two of these archers were caught blatantly stepping off yardage from the bow holder to their stake by an archer that did not set the animals. Needless to say the two in question are leading their class. Again, for a National Title.

At the meeting before the shoot and archer asked that if on short targets, could an archer shoot his arrow, walk down and score it, pull it, and then let the next archer shoot. This to save damaging arrows blocking the 12 ring. Unbelievably, this was approved! Are you kidding me??!!
This would require the two score keepers to walk down as well to confirm and record the score. Might as well drag the 4th in the group along so that everyone could step off the yardage for their shot.

Just to make note with what Super said. Yes, every club has very few workers to set up events. But, the host club has more than enough money to pay people to do the set up to avoid controversy and put forth an event worthy of a National Championship.


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## J-Dubyah (Mar 6, 2010)

This is taking place at the NFAA unmarked shoot?? I would be surprised that they would allow any of that to occur.


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## wa-prez (Sep 9, 2006)

In our Club, the "visitors" compete for the regular awards, our club members compete separately.

Even those who were not involved in placing the animals or the stakes for this event, they are familiar enough with the course from walking it to shoot the bales, or weed eating or raking, they know (or should know) the distance from any point on the lane.


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## bhtr3d (Feb 13, 2004)

Just to ask a question.....how many ppl are there?? As to the short target....that was wrong to approve this....was this approved by like the directors in the state??


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## dw'struth (Mar 14, 2008)

grantmac said:


> Someone placing the animals should be allowed to shoot. Placing and ranging the stakes no.
> 
> -Grant


Yup...
Surely they could come up with a few guys who aren't participating to range and set the stakes. The guys setting targets should only hear "back a few steps" or etc.


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## buzltyr (Dec 31, 2002)

JayDub- Yes. And you're not the only one surprised

Bhtr3d- 66 and yes. Unbelievable.


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## J-Dubyah (Mar 6, 2010)

buzltyr said:


> JayDub- Yes. And you're not the only one surprised
> 
> Bhtr3d- 66 and yes. Unbelievable.


I'd be curious to see if those who set the targets come out on top. 

Small showing for a nat'l


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## Supermag1 (Jun 11, 2009)

buzltyr said:


> Update:
> This is a National Championship we are talking about. Archers that are registered to shoot are setting the animals on the lanes. Each lane has a bow holder post set at the beginning of the lane. Two of these archers were caught blatantly stepping off yardage from the bow holder to their stake by an archer that did not set the animals. Needless to say the two in question are leading their class. Again, for a National Title.
> 
> At the meeting before the shoot and archer asked that if on short targets, could an archer shoot his arrow, walk down and score it, pull it, and then let the next archer shoot. This to save damaging arrows blocking the 12 ring. Unbelievably, this was approved! Are you kidding me??!!
> ...


I agree. If you actively go after a national level shoot then you should know that you're going to need people that aren't planning on shooting it to do a lot of the work. For club shoots and even most state shoots, I'll stand by my previous comments.

wa-prez is right, host club members are still going to have an advantage over visitors unless there are a bunch of new lanes cut. Not much you can do about it but it can also serve to draw shooters in to club shoots so they can "get a feel" for a course before a bigger shoot (I usually try to hit a shoot or two at a club prior to them holding a state championship).


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## Bo Bob (Feb 12, 2004)

I used to set or help set the range and then shoot for a score. I generally did not set stakes or if I did I never used a range finder. The owner would either set the stakes or (if I set the stakes) he would range them to make sure they were to his liking. Sometimes I set them a bit too long and he would move them up or change a lane here or there.
Bottom line is I did it to help my buddies out and I loved 3D. For a general shoot I probably had 3-4 hours of mowing involved *and *4-5 hours in setting the course (and that was with my kids help...little as it might have been). Don't bite too hard on the hand that is feeding your hobby.


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## sagecreek (Jul 15, 2003)

Bo Bob said:


> I used to set or help set the range and then shoot for a score. I generally did not set stakes or if I did I never used a range finder. The owner would either set the stakes or (if I set the stakes) he would range them to make sure they were to his liking. Sometimes I set them a bit too long and he would move them up or change a lane here or there.
> Bottom line is I did it to help my buddies out and I loved 3D. For a general shoot I probably had 3-4 hours of mowing involved *and *4-5 hours in setting the course (and that was with my kids help...little as it might have been). Don't bite too hard on the hand that is feeding your hobby.


Exactly.


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## siej1950 (Jun 13, 2009)

Statistically speaking:

This was a National Competition,

66 Total shooters
23 in a class by themselves 34.8%
37 1st place "champions" 56%
13 2nd place awards 19.6%
8 3rd place awards 12.1%

com·pe·ti·tion noun \ˌkäm-pə-ˈti-shən\
: the act or process of trying to get or win something (such as a prize or a higher level of success) that someone else is also trying to get or win : the act or process of competing

By definition 23 participants (34.8%) weren't even competing, just participating.

Unfortunately, I find this to be the case for most sanctioned NFAA/FAA events that I attend.
Sort of diminishes the spirit of competition. Too many classes/ages/gender of shooting styles dilutes the pool of archers to the point that only a few classes are truly competitive.
Well, that's my opinion, but I could be wrong!


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## bhtr3d (Feb 13, 2004)

siej1950 said:


> Statistically speaking:
> 
> This was a National Competition,
> 
> ...


Sorry to hear what they had.....maybe the should see how the bigger 3d clubs in the state market their shoots....they get more than 66 shooters.....my consulting fee isn't too much....


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## baller (Oct 4, 2006)

At some of the 3D clubs I've been a part of members are required to help set the range (usually because we have a large non-member turnout and without the member help we'd be swamped), but only set the targets in their respective places on Friday afternoon. After the range was declared set by a club officer, no member that was planning on shooting was allowed back on the range until their competition round. Only non-participating officers were allowed back on the range to set the stakes. We never had a problem, and hosted several State and Regional shoots in this manner.


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## nchunter (Dec 4, 2003)

Around here the shoots are put on by clubs. The members of each club set-up, run, and take down for their shoot each week. If the club members could not shoot, then there would be no local tournaments in Eastern NC. Clubs are limited in membership, especially those that can/will help. I have found that setting-up really does not help the scores of those involved much. If anything sometimes I think it hurts my score because I am rushed to finish up shooting so I can get back to working the shoot, registration, food, etc...

A national event may be a differnet story....not real sure on that one....


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## tmorelli (Jul 31, 2005)

what national shoot was this?


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## schmel_me (Dec 17, 2003)

Must be nfaa unmarked 3d championship. Last weekend in fl.


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## jcrayford2001 (Nov 13, 2002)

Ah... You guys and your score keeping.... It's too funny....

A long time ago when I was in charge of setting up a 3D, I made it FUN! Lots of challenging shots for novice and expert. Problem was that it was a local club shoot and not everyone agreed with the setups.... "You should have a clear path between you and the target" or "That target was quartering too much away and the score rings weren't 100% visible" or "The scoring rings are in the shade of the tree and the target needs to move into the bright sunshine" WHAT?!?! I was setting it up for what 3D is intended for - hunting practice not a score sheet.

That was the first and last time I was in charge of setting up. Since then, I've been to the same local club for shoots and am really disappointed in the lack of challenge to a shot. Clear cut, open lanes where you can literally count the number of blades of grass between you and the target. There is absolutely no time when I've got that same situation on an elk. Always have trees in between, sun and shadows, elk not standing 100% broadside.

3D needs to de-evolve back into the days when score cards weren't the primary goal, practicing for a kill shot was.

BTW, in case you're wondering - I don't know if I'm in the top 100 scorers because I never carry a score card anymore.

Rant over. Flame suit on.

J.


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## Bo Bob (Feb 12, 2004)

jcrayford2001 said:


> Ah... You guys and your score keeping.... It's too funny....
> 
> A long time ago when I was in charge of setting up a 3D, I made it FUN! Lots of challenging shots for novice and expert. Problem was that it was a local club shoot and not everyone agreed with the setups.... "You should have a clear path between you and the target" or "That target was quartering too much away and the score rings weren't 100% visible" or "The scoring rings are in the shade of the tree and the target needs to move into the bright sunshine" WHAT?!?! I was setting it up for what 3D is intended for - hunting practice not a score sheet.
> 
> ...


The second scoring rings went on the target it became a competitive game.


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## sagecreek (Jul 15, 2003)

J, that was back in the day when you could buy all the arrows you wanted for $2 a piece.


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## tackscall (Jul 26, 2004)

buzltyr said:


> Update:
> This is a National Championship we are talking about. Archers that are registered to shoot are setting the animals on the lanes. Each lane has a bow holder post set at the beginning of the lane. Two of these archers were caught blatantly stepping off yardage from the bow holder to their stake by an archer that did not set the animals. Needless to say the two in question are leading their class. Again, for a National Title.
> 
> At the meeting before the shoot and archer asked that if on short targets, could an archer shoot his arrow, walk down and score it, pull it, and then let the next archer shoot. This to save damaging arrows blocking the 12 ring. Unbelievably, this was approved! Are you kidding me??!!
> ...


Our league allows us to pull arrows on targets under 15 yards. It just makes sense, arrows are expensive and who needs to pace at that short a distance


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## jcrayford2001 (Nov 13, 2002)

sagecreek said:


> J, that was back in the day when you could buy all the arrows you wanted for $2 a piece.


But what does cheap arrows have to do with the current problem? Has this aspect of the sport evolved into such a place that archers must have a clear lane front and back of the target, so that they don't loose any precious arrows? And in doing so, how many new comers to the sport of archery (and even experienced archers) have got turned off of the 3D aspect because it's now evolved into some degree of a professional Golf tournament? "You mustn't touch an arrow for fear that you've moved it out of the scoring rings prior to the score keepers scoring it" or "I can't see the full path to the target because of that bush - it needs to be removed before anyone can shoot this target".....

Give me a break! Some of the most fun 3D's that I've been too (and many of my fellow shooters) is when the target is at an unknown distance, with a creek/lake/coulee between me and the target.... Try to guess the distance to your target when there is nothing but thin air to reference to...

Again, bring back the fun - you'll bring back more people to the sport. Build the support for the sport and forget the competitive nature.... If you want to shoot for points, there's those other big 60 cm targets for that..... And they all have clear paths to the target.

J.


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