# Quit Crying



## Guest (Jun 9, 2005)

I am so sick of people crying about 3-D. I here alot of whinning about " there should be a rangefinder class", or "the yardage should be marked" or the worst of them all, " the 12 ring should be orange. For those of you who really shoot 3-D, please listen carefully. These people say that this is what they want to see because in their opinion " It will be less intimidating for younger archers" or " it will increase the number of competitors at tournaments" 
But what they really mean, and are to scared to admit, is that they suck. And its too hard for them to deal with not being good at it. So they ask those of us who do put in the time that it takes to get good, to make it easier for them. 
3-D is very challenging. And that is what it is meant to be. I love it. Some people don't like the ASA 12 ring. Again, I love it. If you want big rewards, then you have to take big risks. *THAT'S LIFE.* If you want known yardage and an easily found bullseye go shoot spots. Or even better yet, go home. 3-D is supposed to be hard. It adds challenges that other forms of competitive shooting don't have. Next we will here of a rifle class because some little wuss doesn't like having to pull back a bow because it hurts his shoulder. Just stop, PLEEEASE! 
JUST MY .02


----------



## Doc (Jun 10, 2003)

*Say what's really on your mind*



badfish said:


> Next we will here of a rifle class


At least the animals don't move, what more can somebody ask for?


----------



## sean (May 31, 2003)

3-d is more chalenging because it combines more than one disipline first you judge the yards then pick a spot aim and execute a good shot ...... marked stuff is fun but the best tecnical shooter will win whare as 3-d the guys who win may not be the best shooters ..... make sense?


----------



## dahmer (Jan 16, 2005)

badfish said:


> I am so sick of people crying about 3-D. I here alot of whinning about " there should be a rangefinder class", or "the yardage should be marked" or the worst of them all, " the 12 ring should be orange. For those of you who really shoot 3-D, please listen carefully. These people say that this is what they want to see because in their opinion " It will be less intimidating for younger archers" or " it will increase the number of competitors at tournaments"
> But what they really mean, and are to scared to admit, is that they suck. And its too hard for them to deal with not being good at it. So they ask those of us who do put in the time that it takes to get good, to make it easier for them.
> 3-D is very challenging. And that is what it is meant to be. I love it. Some people don't like the ASA 12 ring. Again, I love it. If you want big rewards, then you have to take big risks. *THAT'S LIFE.* If you want known yardage and an easily found bullseye go shoot spots. Or even better yet, go home. 3-D is supposed to be hard. It adds challenges that other forms of competitive shooting don't have. Next we will here of a rifle class because some little wuss doesn't like having to pull back a bow because it hurts his shoulder. Just stop, PLEEEASE!
> JUST MY .02


Always try to make friends? People are expressing their opinions. Just remember one fact that is true, you will get old like everybody else. Remember your words when that time comes. If you ever get good enough to get a sponsor it won't happen with that attitude.


----------



## JAVI (Jun 19, 2003)

Kids.... :tongue:


----------



## sean (May 31, 2003)

alot of clubs that paint orange spots do so to keep the pace of the shoot moving along its faster if people dont use binocs and have trouble picking a spot and scrutinising every target to find the twelve ring


----------



## monty53 (Jun 19, 2002)

badfish said:


> But what they really mean, and are to scared to admit, is that they suck. JUST MY .02


Do you????


----------



## WR (Aug 28, 2002)

Neal........I've been shooting 3D for 16 years.........and I've always thought the same as you about the unmarked yardage, and thats what I want to go out shooting.
But.....I think it is time to listen to what others have to say about marked yardage, open lanes on the 3D course. We are seeing a decline in shooter numbers, do you think there would be a way to have Marked and Unmarked targets at the range? Maybe a rangefinder class, hand the ones that want to shoot marked yardage a piece of paper with the yardages on them?? 

It's all about having fun, and making it possible for all that want to come.
This year at the Bragging Rights Shoot the club is having a marked yardage shoot on Sunday, day two......I've never shoot one before, so I'm pretty excited to hear and see how it goes over??????? WR


----------



## The X Moves (Mar 15, 2005)

*I suck at yardage estimates and I like it!*

O.K., I really don't like it that much that I suck at estimating distances... I do LOVE the challenge that 3D offers and would strongly oppose efforts to change anything about the way 3D shoots are done presently. 

I don't shoot alot of poundage so an incorrectly judged distance means the difference between an acceptable shot and a great shot. NOTHING beats the satisfaction that I get from knowing that with practice I'm consistently improving and when I nail the 12 ring or X-ring it's enormously gratifying.

Kind of like golf, it's those 4 or 5 perfectly executed shots that keeps ya coming back.

BTW, last Sunday, my 7 & 10 year old boys and I completed a 40 target walk-around 3D mud-bath in the rain. Got a 344 out of 400, covered head to toe in mud & filth & ticks. The boys were worse since the 7 year old fell in the mud and the 10 year old fell in a small crick that you had to cross on slippery, muddy logs. I crabbed a little about the mess in my car, but no wussies here in SD!


----------



## steve hilliard (Jun 26, 2002)

dahmer said:


> Always try to make friends? People are expressing their opinions. Just remember one fact that is true, you will get old like everybody else. Remember your words when that time comes. If you ever get good enough to get a sponsor it won't happen with that attitude.


Well said Dahmer!!!
Badfish, opinions are like as*holes. Now the talk was opening doors to bring more shooters and exposure. I dont agree either but they are entitled. I love 3d as is but need to stay open minded(you should try it)


----------



## Guest (Jun 9, 2005)

Sean, I understand what you are saying completely and I agree. I shoot with a guy that will smoke me shooting spots but I am all over him on the 3-D.
And he can judge yardage better than me. But I dont need a defined 12-ring. I can pick an undefined spot and hit it consistently. I'm good at judging yardage, and I'm a good shot. 
I've been shooting less than a year, But I shoot a lot. A couple hundred shots a day on the average. I put in the time it takes to be competitive. My point was that if you dont like the nature of the game, then dont play. 
If you want known yardage and a defined bullseye then spots are for you, go shoot spots thats what its all about. And if you dont like wind then shoot spots indoors. Get my point?
As far as sponsors go------ I don't need them. If I shoot a product and a company wants to sponsor me then that is great. But I'm not going to shoot something just for the dollars. I shoot what *I* like. I'm not in this for the money. Hell, theres not enough money to be had right now, and the reason is that there are too many classes and everyone thinks they should get a check in every class. That crap is funny. A sponsor doesn't make you someone special, and it surely doesn't make you good. It makes you a yes-man in most cases. 
I'm no yes-man. And for those guys that dont like what I'm saying. Too bad. I would like to see one of you yes-men at a tourney. If I win you can have my check, all I want is one of those sponsor patches on your shirt, and I want it autographed to hang on my wall next to the official results from the shoot.
I don't shoot for money, I shoot to win!!!!!!!!!!!


----------



## fihnfool-3 (May 21, 2005)

our state shoot is having marked and unmarked. You choose wich you want to shoot. Now they have a choice. 
I dont care, heck I might shoot in both!


----------



## thumperX (Jun 9, 2004)

*to each his own!!!*

Personally I dont care!!!! If some people want to shoot marked yardage let em!!!! 1. It would get more people out to the clubs shoot 2. It would help those who cant judge yardage after a while, and could later move up to unmarked!!
Also if you want to open a can of worm!! You will still have differnt yardage even at a marked 3D shoot, not like target, where you shoot the same distance over and over and over!!! Now before people get [email protected]@ed at me, I shoot target also!!! just prefer 3d because of the diffent senierios and distances!!!
So in all what ever it takes to get people into the sport and the next generation into it, Let em shoot what ever they want!!!!


----------



## Top Cat (Jun 22, 2002)

badfish said:


> I'm no yes-man. And for those guys that dont like what I'm saying. Too bad. I would like to see one of you yes-men at a tourney. If I win you can have my check, all I want is one of those sponsor patches on your shirt, and I want it autographed to hang on my wall next to the official results from the shoot.
> I don't shoot for money, I shoot to win!!!!!!!!!!!


Neal, Thats a great idea,I like that. 
But please chill out,your attitude will get you nowhere in this world. 
There is room for everyone in this archery game. 
There are people on this site who want marked yardage along with unmarked and they don't suck. They shoot damn good. They just want to try to bring more people to the sport. Will it,I don't know but I sure know you wont.


----------



## Larry Rooks (Jan 25, 2003)

Participation is down so much in our local area that ranges can not afford to set up two ranges, one marked and one not. I would suggest that some of these courses be set more realistic, maybe have one week when the shots are closer, making it easier to judge. I knwo I have been to some and the average shot out of t20 will be 37 yards, shots from 35 to 45 yards all day.
For the beginning archer, or newbie into 3D, this can turn them off quick when they go out and lose several arrows. The regular competitor has no problem, but for those that are just getting started and do it th benefit their hunting would not usually take a 35 to 50 yard shot at an animal anyway.
Painting a bullseye on the target would not be my idea of the right thing to do, as the animal hunted does not have one?????


----------



## bowdoodler (Feb 9, 2005)

heres an option,set one course ,two sets of score cards one set with yardage marked od that specific target no. for guys that don't want to know yardage take a blank card


----------



## rembrandt (Jan 17, 2004)

It seems to me that most of the folks above are speaking about folks who there prime objective is to win something. I kinda look at it with a different perspective. I think participating is the key and the fun of it, not winning. Heck, theres no one any more competitive than I've been over the years in shooting and golf but being out there shooting at those dummy animals is a whole lot more fun than fretting over where the 12 ring is or "I've got to win or I want enjoy this thing called 3-D". It's fun to win but it's a whole lot more fun to just be out there.


----------



## Camo Boy (May 18, 2005)

I like when I come up to a target and I look at it and say to myself, Self it looks like 30 yards but could be 35. I like to be challanged. I shoot a outdoor hunter league, and the guys that put this league on make some pretty hard shots. I mean just like hunting senario's, where twigs or branches will be in the way. I think it makes you a better shooter. But that's my opinion.


----------



## Guest (Jun 9, 2005)

The reasoning that unmarked yardage is intimidating to new archers is not valid. That is why you have shorter stakes. It is easier to judge yardage when there is a max of 20-25 yards. This is where you build your fundamental skills.
Also it's odd that so many people believe that I have a bad attitude, or that my attitude will keep new people from getting involved with the sport. I have a crazy idea. If you want to keep newbies coming back, try taking the time to help them. Let them shoot a couple rounds with you. And teach them the tricks of the trade. Give them something to work for, a goal, instead of changing the rules and taking the challenge out of it. Would you want the pro baseball stadiums to shorten the distance of the wall so everyone can hit a home run? I uderstand that everyone is not a pro, I'm not, but that is the reason we have shorter stakes. 
And yes, I do have fun! Probably more than most people. I go out with the goal of winning every time I shoot a tourney. But win or lose I can gaurantee its going to be fun. The guys I shoot with are a blast. In fact we do so much clowning around on the course some people wonder if we even care about shooting. But when our foot is at the stake its all business.
You could not shoot a course with us and not have fun, unless you have a stick in a place a stick should never be.
Is being competitive wrong? If someone wants to shoot with a rangefinder or whatever thats their bag. But don't turn in that score and don't expect everyone else to make a class for you. 3-D is a shooting sport where you walk to an unknown target, mentally calculate the yardage, and take your shot. Am I wrong? If you take away any aspect of that, then the amount of skill involved has dramatically decreased. 

Something to keep in mind!!!! Do you think that maybe when someone new tries to shoot for the first time and you make it too easy they feel as if you are looking down on them, like they arent good enough to shoot the same rules.
I think that they come to the sport to be challenged, and if they are not they will surely quit. I would have. Instead of making the sport easier for the new competitors, lets try to give a little of ourselves and try to make the new competitors better so they can enjoy the true challenges of the sport. That is unless you are afraid of some new guy coming back next year and beating you over and over again. It would be a hard pill to swallow wouldn't it?


----------



## soaker2000 (May 8, 2004)

we all lost alot of arrows when we were new to the sport and we stayed with
it. so i dont think that intimidation is keeping new shooters out. i have no
problem with marked yards or range finders as a separate game or offered as
a differant class. i just dont think that it offers the skill developement new
shooters can get at unmarked. i like the game as it is.


----------



## JAVI (Jun 19, 2003)

You fellows that are in this for hunting practice, just aren’t talking the same game as the shooters who are competing at the national level in the open classes. At that level it is not a simulation for a hunting trip, it is outright competition and the skill is yardage. No it’s not shooting skill, or aiming skill; those are a given at that level, it is just plain old yardage.

Now I haven’t chosen to compete at that game until recently; but I can tell you that aiming and shooting ain’t gonna be my down fall… 

Would I like to see the promotion of archery and the growth necessary so that younger shooters, one day will be able to make a living? Damn right… it’s too late for me but I still think there is a venue that will attract the money. I can only guess and “cry” about what we got now; cause it ain’t attracting the cash… 

Is it fun? Sure… is it expensive to travel to the “big” shoots? Yep…. 

Is it cost effective to compete? Only for about 5 or 6 of the big guns….

Would another venue draw more shooters? Maybe… maybe not…


----------



## Flip Flop (Jan 1, 2005)

i can say that i have been shootin 3-d for over 15 years and until recently have loved it. but now i am grown up with 2 jobs and the wife and kids, i do not have the time (judeing yardage) or money(for a couple $300 3-D targets) to compete. I have trouble takin the wife and kids to a shoot where we have to work on everything including yardage, and when I help them we get called cheats even though I write void over our cards for just that reason. If I could get at couple good marked yardage shoots around my area I would start to compete (or try atleast) and could get ALOT more shooters to go with me. For now all I have is the indoor, fun but I still like foam.


----------



## drtnshtr (Jan 20, 2003)

badfish said:


> Sean, I understand what you are saying completely and I agree. I shoot with a guy that will smoke me shooting spots but I am all over him on the 3-D.
> And he can judge yardage better than me. But I dont need a defined 12-ring. I can pick an undefined spot and hit it consistently. I'm good at judging yardage, and I'm a good shot.
> I've been shooting less than a year, But I shoot a lot. A couple hundred shots a day on the average. I put in the time it takes to be competitive. My point was that if you dont like the nature of the game, then dont play.
> If you want known yardage and a defined bullseye then spots are for you, go shoot spots thats what its all about. And if you dont like wind then shoot spots indoors. Get my point?
> ...


I love to shoot 3-D as much as you do but I think making comments like "if you dont like the nature of the game then dont play" is not going to help the sport grow. I understand all of the points made by people that want marked 3-D and I agree with alot they say. If it helps 3-D grow then why not do it? what is the worse that can happen,our numbers double?


----------



## bamabuck (Jan 19, 2005)

I think its like Huntin Dad said. you have the guy's that practice for hrs everyday that have there A-Game come game day but you also have the guy's that have families and sometime 2 jobs but they would still like to shoot 3d on the weekends. I myself practice everyday and do not want marked yardage but I do think it could help by having something hepling with the yardage side of it!!! On the other hand it could save me $8 a pop!!!


----------



## Raider2000 (Oct 21, 2003)

thumperX said:


> Personally I dont care!!!! If some people want to shoot marked yardage let em!!!! 1. It would get more people out to the clubs shoot 2. It would help those who cant judge yardage after a while, and could later move up to unmarked!!
> Also if you want to open a can of worm!! You will still have differnt yardage even at a marked 3D shoot, not like target, where you shoot the same distance over and over and over!!! Now before people get [email protected]@ed at me, I shoot target also!!! just prefer 3d because of the diffent senierios and distances!!!
> So in all what ever it takes to get people into the sport and the next generation into it, Let em shoot what ever they want!!!!


I agree completely, I have started shooting 3-D again after a 11 year break "personal issues" & to me it is as fun as it used to be maybe even a bit more fun now that I have my 11 year old with me, but I really don't care either way & I too think that if both avenues are available then it would bring more to our sport, like some that I hear are doing an unmarked on a Saturday & a marked on Sunday this way it would cater to both sides of the tree...

Just remember every one....
The main thing is for every one to have fun


----------



## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

*You want a range finder division*

Why dont someone go start one. We have marked yardage in many venues.

3d is judging yardage. If you dont want to play the game, DONT!

Go start a rangefinder archery venue. ASA and IBO are not broke, they still have many members that like the game like it is.


----------



## low12 (Jan 31, 2005)

I must be missing something here. Sounds like badfish and DB are missing the point some are trying to make. Why not add another option to the current 3D shoots? Just add a seperate rangefinder class, with no change to the course set up. We all might be surprised how many people would want to try it. On the other hand some might not like it because it will take away the excuse of missed judged yardage and show what kind of shooter they really are. :wink: If rangefinders could bring more shooters in to the sport, then why not try it?


----------



## Target Tony (Mar 3, 2003)

*low 12 you beat me to it ..*

good point... :teeth: 

i enjoy shooitng all types of shoots .. :thumbs_up 

the suggestion is to only add a class to the current IBO and ASA shoots.... from what i have read the people that suggest these kind of classes arent proposing to change 3D but to just add to it.. if by adding a few other classes for people to shoot and it draws more people is that bad ?

i guess it sounds like the old school 3Ders are afraid that a marked yardage or rangfinder class would take over 3d and eliminate the unmarked shoots .. i dont really think so there is to huge a following for unmarked shooting...

i feel it would add a lot more people that wouldnt normaly go to 3d shoots.. you would probably drag in a lot more spot shooters if that was the case for marked yardage .. 

im not trying to make anyone mad here , these are just my observations ...  

Shoot strong
Tony


----------



## low12 (Jan 31, 2005)

Would like to know what class madfish :angry: (badfish) shoots in.


----------



## centerx (Jun 13, 2002)

Yep That's the ticket...

If the first group on a course wants to go out and shoot unmarked and try to win some of that sweet$$$$ then let them go at it ….

If the next group wants to do the same but don't care if the win…. Great!!

If the next group wants to hold up a rangefinder and shoot it for the stated yardage … Welcome aboard!!

If the next group want to flip over a special card prepared just for that class and Discover that the Deer Is between 28-36 yards and only want to worry about guessing 10 yards and not 50?? Well I'm glad you folks came to play as well..

Now How much work did all that take?? How did that love it or leave it folks get harmed while encouraging the rest to play??

They gains in attendance may be marginal .. The best will still win and yes there will be a few more people winning and feeling good about there experience.. Few more people .. Few more winners and a few less excuses for not playing…. I can live with that


----------



## PLASTIC PAUL (Sep 19, 2004)

*Just Shoot*

We have a new club in the area and on Friday nights they have indoor marked yardage 3-D shoots. They are getting a pretty good draw, some of us drive an hour or more every week to shoot there. Many of thses folks shoot unmarked on the weekends.

When possible (time) i shoot unmarked on the weekends. It's fun too.

For someone to degrade those that want to shoot marke distances is rediculous. We used to have some marked yardage shoots in NY run by a group. It was fun to watch the spot shooters drill those 12 rings.

This whole attitude thing and the term "CRYING" and the other term "WHINING" seem to be used a lot with 3-D shooters. What is the deal with the all this, if this doesn't stop soon 3-D will die. As a rule you don't hear these terms in Spots because our world is cut and dry. Everything is laid out in front of you, you just have to make the shot. We generally have two classes, Pro and Am. Believe me we play to win but there is none of this, range finder, black nock, ASA vs IBO stuff going on.

I shoot 3-D to hang with my friends and don't expect to win. I genrally have a blast, we laugh and cut up like circus clowns. I shoot with two guys who any given day could win with no problem and i never hear any of this crap.

Grow up folks or the 3-D numbers will continue to drop.


----------



## hoyt3 (Apr 22, 2005)

I've always viewed three d shoots as a way for hunters to improve their range estimation and shot placement. it is fun too. Now, well, I understand the seriousness about the shoots, but c'mon, there should be no marked targets or range finders allowed. I won't get on my soap box, but I love beating guys that have their three d rigs all done up, with my very modest hoyt mt sport. love to see their faces when I tell them what I shot.


----------



## low12 (Jan 31, 2005)

Move over big boys, we have a new fish in the pond (badfish). Been in 3D less than a year and already thinks people who can't shoot as good as he can, suck! Just wait until he has been shooting 3D for another 10 yrs. or so, no telling how good he will be, or will he be old enough then to start loosing his eyesight, nerves getting a little shakey, and his legs give out climbing 3D hills. Then he might rethink his stand on 3D and look for a way to still enjoy the sport. He sounds like a suckerfish right now.


----------



## MHansel (Jan 8, 2005)

*3-d*

Here's my 2 cents!!
I'm fairly new to 3-d shooting, and I loved it!!! granted having some bino's would help, because my vision stink  but the whole thing for me is, practicing hunting situtation's, and becoming a better bowhunter. I'm also not that good at estimating distance, but I'm getting better at it, because of 3-d shooting. If people want to know the yardage give them a card like some of you have said, but honestly I thought it was all about having fun :teeth: I know I have fun, and have made some friends along the way, that's what it's all about in my book. One more thing, when shooting 3-d, I thought the only person you are trying to better is yourself.


----------



## centerx (Jun 13, 2002)

Some people don't have the time or ability to get good with yardage consequently they keep shots in close or use a range finder to narrow things down.

Some pace off the distance to tree's , rocks so they have a good idea of the distance .. That way if an animal is a few yards further or closer they only have to guess those few yards.

Not many purposely go out into the woods and don't make any yardage preparations.. Yes it happens , Especially out west on animals like Elk and Antelope but even then if a person has time to "prep" a yardage they will. I don't think many really go turkey hunting and purposely try to NOT get as close as possible and then try to make that snap guess on yardage on the fly because it's challenging and fun…

Bottom line is there are many ways people choose to hunt and deal with the Yardage problem . Since I can only assume most would like to grow the sport and hunters are the people with bows in there hands that are not using them to shoot target clubs would want to reach out to them on there terms and give them a way to shoot and compete based on what there are comfortable with.

Want to practice snap judgment for that elk hunt… something for you..

If you are not a good shot past 20 and you would like to extend you effective range before even worrying about yardage?? Something for you 

Get in your tree stand and range find some landmarks and then have to guess a few yards closer or further as the animals walk by… Something for you…


----------



## PA Bowman (Dec 11, 2003)

Sounds to me like someone has a lot of penned up frustration!!
For an archer the main attention should be to support and promote the sport of archery. Period.
Win or lose you are still out there to compete in the sport you love :wink:


----------



## JAVI (Jun 19, 2003)

It appears that we may have at least two separate purposes involved. There are those who view 3-D archery as practice for hunting and those like myself who see it as nothing but another form of target archery, one which involves another skill beyond shooting ability. I see it as a form of competition, nothing more; one I intend to pursue further. And I don’t think anyone is really bent on changing 3-D as it sits now, especially at the local level. However, I do believe there is room for improvement at least in media and sponsorship relationships. And I’m all for improving the available money base of the game. Those of you, who want a game to practice for hunting, can put down your shields and stop whining, crying, and blustering because it is “YOU” that are fussing about a sport at which you merely “PLAY”. Others are looking for a way to expand the “GAME” of 3-D beyond “HUNTING” so that it can become a “PRO” sport for more than a fortunate few.


----------



## MHansel (Jan 8, 2005)

*3-d shooting!!!*

Those of you, who want a game to practice for hunting, can put down your shields and stop whining, crying, and blustering because it is “YOU” that are fussing about a sport at which you merely “PLAY”. Others are looking for a way to expand the “GAME” of 3-D beyond “HUNTING” so that it can become a “PRO” sport for more than a fortunate few.
JAVI



I did know that I was crying :mg: I'd love to get into all forms of archery, 3-d is what has me the most interested, I've got vision issue's, and seeing some spot targets is difficult, but looking at a 3-d animal is easier for me. I'm limited because of money, and time, I'd love to spend big bucks on a nice rig for 3-d, but I cann't, and living in south florida, seems like the big shoot's are farther than I can travel, and still leave time off to hunt. If fact I'm going to start traveling to Ft. Myers to their shoot's and Vero.


----------



## monty53 (Jun 19, 2002)

JAVI said:


> It appears that we may have at least two separate purposes involved. There are those who view 3-D archery as practice for hunting and those like myself who see it as nothing but another form of target archery, one which involves another skill beyond shooting ability. I see it as a form of competition, nothing more; one I intend to pursue further. And I don’t think anyone is really bent on changing 3-D as it sits now, especially at the local level. However, I do believe there is room for improvement at least in media and sponsorship relationships. And I’m all for improving the available money base of the game. Those of you, who want a game to practice for hunting, can put down your shields and stop whining, crying, and blustering because it is “YOU” that are fussing about a sport at which you merely “PLAY”. Others are looking for a way to expand the “GAME” of 3-D beyond “HUNTING” so that it can become a “PRO” sport for more than a fortunate few.


Javi……..wait a minute!……
You know what IBO stands for and you are telling hunters to buzz off? ..
Unmarked 3D in the IBO is the only way to have it. IBO “IS” the hunters organization.

You want marked yardage and bullseyes on 3D targets,… you have ASA. Change ASA to your target ways and leave the IBO alone.


----------



## P.L. Archery (Apr 14, 2005)

Badfish,

I've got the perfect 3D shoot for you. July 29-31 Battle Lake MN "MN Masters".

Unmarked yardages out to 75+yds.

No rangefinders

No optics of any kind(not even bow scopes)

Some severe quartering shots

Plenty of brush and obstructions to shoot around

50 targets scored 10-8-5-0

Winning score last year was 445(yours truely)

For more information contact Tom&Carol Erickson @ T&C Archery Fergus Falls,MN (PM me for their Phone number )


----------



## Dreamer (Aug 19, 2004)

JAVI said:


> It appears that we may have at least two separate purposes involved. There are those who view 3-D archery as practice for hunting and those like myself who see it as nothing but another form of target archery.


Either way you are honing your archery skills, having fun, and competing with friends. No matter how 3-d evolves, it will always have these qualities.


----------



## PLASTIC PAUL (Sep 19, 2004)

*Step Back for a minute Boys*

Take a look at this whole thing. No wonder major companies stay away from this sport, look at all the bickering and splitting.....

I am so gladd i shoot spots at a competitive level and shoot 3-D for recreation and to hang with the guys. 

It seems like every two weeks or so there is a thread here on AT involving 3-D which starts out ugly or turns ugly very quickly.

The way i see it 3-D is very divided, there is local and major, there is IBO and ASA, there is hunter class and open class, etc.......Do any of you serious 3-D folks see this as a problem.


----------



## centerx (Jun 13, 2002)

I think the Orgs do a good job. And the IBO sure does help bow hunting … some It also helps some bowhunters hunt

However even IBO competitions have developed into nothing more then target competitions.. Except arguably the hunter class.. Lets look at all the things in the Hunter class that are illegal and will put you into the "open" (target)division.

Pendulum sights ( not that you would use one on flat ground) 
Slider sights ( popular) 
Any fletch that is less then 4 inches ( way popular) 
The desire to use more then 4 pins ( I think) 
No method or outlet to use a rangefinder ( many people hunt with one)
STS type systems ( for now)…
Any binocular over 8 power ( illegal as a whole) 

While not the entire hunting population it is certainertly a sizable amount that use this kind of gear to hunt with that the IBO chooses to exclude from it's sponsored activities. But then I hear folks yell "well those are the rules" Which Is it??? Is the IBO reaching out to the average joe bowhunter or are they creating rules for the basis of target competition?? 

No reason for fighting and that's what I'm promoting.. No division, No excuses to exclude any potential participants Nothing has to change and the existing formats can do it with only a few simple rule changes and class creations…..

If you choose to fight about it then one simply just must enjoy the fight…I do not know how people can show up to a shoot that has 40 classes most do not use and do not affect the majority of the participants. Then when you suggest the creation of some that may get used and still will not effect the majority but could possibly yield 12%-30% growth.. It's a completely idiotic concept ??


----------



## PLASTIC PAUL (Sep 19, 2004)

*Stir Stir*

Centerx hit a good one here....And

The ASA is just as crazy.

In hunter novice class you can use what ever vane you want and glue in points but not shoot over 265 fps. What hunter is shooting 265 or using glue in points?


----------



## JAVI (Jun 19, 2003)

monty53 said:


> Javi……..wait a minute!……
> You know what IBO stands for and you are telling hunters to buzz off? ..
> Unmarked 3D in the IBO is the only way to have it. IBO “IS” the hunters organization.
> 
> You want marked yardage and bullseyes on 3D targets,… you have ASA. Change ASA to your target ways and leave the IBO alone.


Yes, I am aware of the I.B.O.’s advertised purpose, and I’m not opposed to it at all. However, I again state there are individuals who see 3-D as a form of practice for hunting and that is their main purpose for participating. Others like myself see it as a competition and nothing more. Why is that difficult for people to understand?

At one time I practiced my shooting skills in order to hunt; now I practice the skill of Archery to compete in target events, whether I’m shooting against myself or against you. I do not need to travel across the country to hone my skill as a hunter; I do it for the enjoyment of the sport of archery. 

The fact that I shoot better for the practice is a plus when I take to the woods, but hunting is no longer my reason for practice. That does not mean that “you” are wrong to use 3-D as practice for hunting, but please recognize that others are there for the competition. Others who want to see the sport of competitive archery grow into something more than a practice for hunting. 

And once again, slowly….. I’m not promoting rangefinders or marked yardage; but I am promoting the evolution of a venue; whatever form it takes, which will attract sponsorship funds beyond the occasional ½ price bow or dozen arrows. Not for me, (I’m too old already) but for the coming generations of competitors. 

And yes I am promoting the fact that target archery is to hunting what skeet shooting is to hunting. Target evolved from the need to practice for the hunt, but like many things in life target archery has surpassed its original purpose and has become its own entity. 

Like it or not 3-D is no longer just practice for hunting…..


----------



## low12 (Jan 31, 2005)

Have you ever argured with your wife so long that you forgot what you were arguring about?


----------



## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

*ASA has marked yardage*

Its called the simms. Not as popular as many of you think :wink: 


Some of you guys that think marked yardage will work. Contact Jon Rhinehart. See if it will fly. 

3d is judging yardage, other wise shoot field.

I want orange dots and marked yardage. Lets make it as easy as it can be.


----------



## low12 (Jan 31, 2005)

DB, with all due respect, most of us are not talking about changing 3D by using marked yardage courses, we are talking about adding a new, optional, rangefinder class. This would in no way change how 3D is shot today, all it would do is add another option, that might interest some new shooters or get some that have lost interest going again. That idea of yours about a glowing 12 ring might just fly. Think we should take a poll about it? :wink:


----------



## slickhead (May 26, 2005)

hey bad fish 
for real man, grow up. you come in this with chip on your shoulder. every body has their own opion on how 3-d should be run. however, its only ibo, asa, bsba, (and other affiliates) are the only opinion that matter. however beating every ones else's oinion into the ground really isn't all that cool. and as far as the winning goes.... what ever happened to just having fun and callenging yourself. not being like little league baseball coach too caught up on winning rather than playing the game. man you need some jesus.


----------



## reylamb (Feb 5, 2003)

Riddle me this........

If anyone were to add a range finder course, what would be the classes? Would there be a men's open, men's hunter, men's limited, men's unlimited, men's pro, senior, etc or just one big giant rangefinder class. How long would it take for folks to get blistered by Tim G, Chance B, the Wildes, GRIV, or any of the other top flight spotties before everyone starts complaining for seperate range finder classes.

You see, it is not as easy as just adding a range finder class. There are many more things at play here. What classes, how many, etc?

At the local level.......well, let's not even go there. Ok, I will anyway. How many clubs have the land, targets, and workers to set 2 completely seperate ranges? We would have to. What is to stop the guys shooting range finder class to discuss the yardage of their target with a group of unknown shooters standing on the target behind them? It would make life very difficult and could possibly give a serious advantage to some shooters shooting in the unknown portion of the event. And marking scorecards with the yardages? Man, that is a ton of work to be done prior to the shoot. It is hard enough to get workers to help set a course without adding the unnecessary burden of marking a bunch of scorecards with yardages. And just who is supposed to range the course anyway? The guys that set it that may be competing the next day? Again, hardly fair.

I agree with Javi also, while there are a few similarities between 3D and hunting, they are very dissamilar. I have yet to hunt with an open setup, field tips, walking up to the critter and stand around in a group to shoot. 3D is to hunting as putt-putt is to golf. Possibly practice shooting the bow at a facsimile of the real thing, but hardly the same. 3d is what it is, target archery with the caveat of yardage estimation.

Having said that, let me say this. Anyone interested in a range finder shoot, show up at the Gainesville Archery Club shoot for our August shoot. It will be a "hunters" warmup shoot and range finders will be allowed on the course. Furthermore, any and all law enforcement personell, firefighters and active duty military personell will be allowed to shoot at no charge as appreciation to their willingness to serve to keep us all safe. Come on Tim, it is just an airline away to Atlanta and a short hop to the shoot from there. Maybe I could even talk OBT into showing up for the event!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


----------



## Jose Boudreaux (Oct 18, 2003)

I think they should have a rangefinder Bowhunter Class...shoot at the big stakes with bowhunter class equipment, 12" or less stab, at least 3, 4" feathers or vanes, scew in points, etc....my 190fps arrows would like to know the range, not me :tongue: 

If the Big boys want to come down to my class and kick my rear so be it, I am practicing for hunting :teeth:


----------



## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

*LOw 12*



low12 said:


> DB, with all due respect, most of us are not talking about changing 3D by using marked yardage courses, we are talking about adding a new, optional, rangefinder class. This would in no way change how 3D is shot today, all it would do is add another option, that might interest some new shooters or get some that have lost interest going again. That idea of yours about a glowing 12 ring might just fly. Think we should take a poll about it? :wink:


There so many different class's at 3d shoots now without placing more or twice as many. Just would ne impossiable to do both.


----------



## Salt Grass Mama (Jul 9, 2004)

There are two problems with trying to offer marked and unmarked. Number one is the cost involved. 3-D targets are nowhere near cheap and to offer both you would need to set up 2 ranges which means twice the expense for a club, as well as finding spots for 30 more animals. 

The second problem is that most 3-D clubs are struggling to find enough people to set up one range once a month, so I can't see how it would help to add more work to the few who are willing to get involved and do the work.

As to marked vs unmarked yardage, I just started shooting last year and at first the unmarked distances were a little intimidating. So I hit the practice range and after a while I started to "get" what 30 yards and 20 yards and 35 yards look like. Now I am beating some of the men who have been shooting for years. My husband has been shooting for 36 years and I can beat him sometimes, shooting from the same stakes.

My 8 year old granddaughter started shooting when she was 5 and is basically an instinctive shooter. She may not score as high as some of the older kids who have sights and stabilizers and releases, but she enjoys it every bit as much.


----------



## MarkD (Aug 26, 2004)

*I got a solution*

How about leave all the rules alone... keep all the current classes the same..

Now, for the people that just want the practice for hunting or the ones that just want to have fun or the newbies that think they would like to see what it is all about let them shoot!!!!

They do not get a score card..Perhaps they could wear a arm band or a white hat whatever it takes to show they are not in the competition.

The discusion of yardage would not be allowed but they could use range finders or shoot from which ever stake they choose (every one in that group has agreed to be disqualified)

Now the good news is the entry fee (same for everyone) they paid could go towards prizes, cash prizes, To pay out the top shooters for the "REAL 3D SHOOTERS"

I would like to think it would help the sport grow, some of these people after gaining some confidence would then start competing :wink: 

Bottom line.... Dont close the door


----------



## hoyt3 (Apr 22, 2005)

javi, take your rangefinder and your ten minute stay at a target and take a long walk off a short pier. remember to pace the distance to that deer next time you have it in range, he'll wait for you. gimme a break.


----------



## JAVI (Jun 19, 2003)

hoyt3 said:


> javi, take your rangefinder and your ten minute stay at a target and take a long walk off a short pier. remember to pace the distance to that deer next time you have it in range, he'll wait for you. gimme a break.


I killed my first archery deer with a wooden arrow and a re-curve bow, that I shot off the shelf and without sights, this in all probability occurred before you were born... So you may accompany me on the same short walk....


----------



## MHansel (Jan 8, 2005)

*3-d shooting*

I've made my comment's to this thread already, I like to bowhunt, and I like to 3-d shoot, it's to bad that some people are taking it a little to far


----------



## JAVI (Jun 19, 2003)

I don’t think that a couple of individuals who claim to be able to outshoot the world of professional 3-D with their hunting rigs are to be taken any too seriously. They may be the big fish in their little pond but a guppy in the competitive ocean.

As far as this discussion is concerned, I didn’t start the whining…. I didn’t advocate changing the rules, and I didn’t suggest the use of a range finder in competition or that all 3-D should be shot as marked yardage. I did suggest that competitive 3-D is no longer only about practice for hunting. 

I do believe that since the competitive side of 3-D has progressed; that there be a point made to promote the sport as a marketable professional venue and make whatever format changes are necessary (if any) to progress along those lines. The primary goal being national sponsorship of a number of events with a prize pool that will allow more than five or six of the top archers to compete on a full time basis. Until we as competitive archers and the organizations that promote that competition realize the heavy fracturing of the sport is detrimental to that goal; and make the necessary moves to seek a remedy, that goal will not come to be. 

Maybe 3-D is not a truly marketable archery venue that will allow the top archers to compete for more than a few weeks salary during the summer months. Maybe another venue such as they’re using on the Outdoor games is the answer; but there is no reason that archery can’t be a professional sport, for more than a half dozen individuals.


----------



## Deliverance (Feb 26, 2005)

I Have been shooting bows for over 20 years and have seen a few changes in the industry. I shot 3D for the last seven years and enjoy the sport. I do it for one reason only and that is to stay conditioned for the upcoming hunting season. 

I still use a rangefinder and stakes for hunting so that I can ensure that when the animal does step into my range, I can feel confidant that I have taken all the steps to ensure a clean kill. Thats just me.

Like I said above, I have seen a few changes in the sport. This sport is no different than anyother sport, they alll involve changes, be it good or bad. Most changes usually happen for the better. I wonder what the older generations thought of the reinvention of the stick bow and came up with the compound. What about the old style finger shooters and the invention of the mechanical release. those are just to mention a few. Marked yardage or non marked, its just change. Some of us will be on one side of the fence and the rest on the other side.

I am teaching my duaghter at maked yardage because I belive she has enough to deal with, with form and just making the shot. I belive this class would be great for the beginner and a great confidence builder for them. But one question that i have, is there money involved in this class? I do not believe there should be money in this class. I say that because it motivates those shooters to advance to the next level to get the money "If that is what they desire" and to improve their skills as an archer. No money in this class would also prevent acomplised archers from stepping down to that level to regain some of their lost money. 

This sport that we enjoy is ours for only a short time. We must prserve the sport by getting the children involved in the sport. They are the true future of this fine sport. Marked or unmarked, I will stand on the marked yardage side. We have got to make it fun for the kids. Its simple, they are the future.


----------



## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

*Try it*

Have marked yardage 3d shoots and see how many will come. Call Jon Rhinehart and have him start a marked yardage 3d. Rhinehart 100 might be the place to find out :thumbs_up 

I traveled over 200 miles shooting two events in the state yesturday.

I like 3d just like it is. Been shooting evey weekend for many years. 
Judging yardage is part of the game many of us play. Never fails there always guys want to change the archery venue no matter what the rules are. Set the rules and Ill play by them regardless. I dont go to any association and try to change the rules to fit me. 

3D has been a great sport for many years. Change is not always a good thing. Promoters know and have meetings to discuss things like this. I know ASA does my shooting partner is regional director for this area. They do disscuss many matters and often try to make the right move for the association.

Deermans assc is different and is growing in numbers. They have shots that many tournament guys dont like, shooting through small funnels and between trees. Many hunters and me enjoy that challenge. There not changing there rules to fit a few. I go to there events and I play by the rules.

Driving to Missouri smackdown and Ill play by there rules. One thing I will do is have fun and enjoy the event. Winning in archery is the small part of being an archer. The friends we make and the time we spend on the range shooting a bow is priceless to many of us here.

ASA is doing just fine  They run a great event. :thumbs_up Thanks to all the folks that run the ASA. See many of you Illinois :thumbs_up


----------



## low12 (Jan 31, 2005)

Funny how things happen, after all the BS on this thread about rangefinders, I went to a shoot here in GA. this morning and it turned out to be all marked yardage. I know I will be less of a man for admitting this, but the shoot was fun. Conditions were terrible due to freshly graded roads and ankle deep red mud, not to mention the 87 degree heat, with 120% humidity and rain. Thanks Big "T", for another great shoot.


----------



## LHpuncher (Apr 12, 2004)

the first few years I started shooting 3D I couldn't judge yardage to save my butt......so you know what I did.......


I PRACTICED and I still PRACTICE everyday.......


----------



## Guest (Jun 13, 2005)

low12------- This is off the topic but I'll answer you anyway........ I shoot the longest stakes available. I don't shoot the money class because there's never any money to shoot for, at least at the shoots I attend, But always the long stakes. For M.A.C. I shoot the MBO class. My crew travels to different clubs every weekend. We search for the toughest shoots around. If your just out to have fun then go have it. I'm competitive and that is the point behind having a tournament. You shoot for a score to compare to others and determine a winner. If it wasn't a competition then there would be no reason for the clubs to spend the money to print score cards or waste their time computing results. You may not be competitive and thats ok. But do you think those guys or gals on the course that have more money into their equipment than alot of people spend on their cars are just out for the fresh air? Do you think that those people that are shooting elite stakes, taking 70yd. shots through trees are trying to practice that shot for a hunting scenario? Do you honestly think that those same people are driving hundreds of miles every weekend to shoot at a foam target, are doing this to ensure a clean kill at 20yds. next deer season? Wake up!!!! 
I'm not saying that it's wrong to shoot 3-D for hunting practice. In fact I think it's a great idea. If thats what you want to do then join a club and do it during open shooting. You are even welcome to come shoot the tournament if you'd like to do that. But have no doubt in your mind when you show up on tournament day, people are here to compete and that is the reason for a tournament. The problem with tourneys in my opinion is not that there aren't enough classes but that there are to many already. 
The reason for all these classes is because of the same type of people who are now begging for a range finder class. They are to lazy to put in the time it takes to get good. In the begining it had to start with just one class. But then the guys that lost blamed it on equipment. They would say things like, "How can I compete with him he has a 20inch stabilizer, there should be a separate class". In reality, those guys that you think are only good because of their equipment, would whooop you with your own bow.
The same is true with rangefinders. Soon there would be just as many rangefinder classes. It's never going to end. If you want to shoot tournaments and be competitive then practice. If its not about competition to you then don't shoot tournaments.
And yes, I have been shooting less than a year, I got my first bow in august. I'm on my 3rd bow now and about to get my 4th. I love this stuff. It's not a pasttime or hunting practice to me. I COMPETE. I never said I was the best, I know I'm not. The reason I know is because I shoot with guys that really are good. But I'm good enough to compete from the long stakes. WHERE DO YOU SHOOT FROM?????


----------



## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

*Often time easier is fun*



low12 said:


> Funny how things happen, after all the BS on this thread about rangefinders, I went to a shoot here in GA. this morning and it turned out to be all marked yardage. I know I will be less of a man for admitting this, but the shoot was fun. Conditions were terrible due to freshly graded roads and ankle deep red mud, not to mention the 87 degree heat, with 120% humidity and rain. Thanks Big "T", for another great shoot.


Glad you had a geat time. Ill keep practicing my range finding.

Maybe they will keep the shoots within 30 yrds and we all score big scores.


----------



## Guest (Jun 13, 2005)

Target Guy said:


> It seems like every two weeks or so there is a thread here on AT involving 3-D which starts out ugly or turns ugly very quickly.
> 
> The way i see it 3-D is very divided, there is local and major, there is IBO and ASA, there is hunter class and open class, etc.......Do any of you serious 3-D folks see this as a problem.



Yes, I see this as a problem. And adding more classes is only going to make it worse. This is my point. As a competitive shooter you have to understand that.


----------



## Guest (Jun 13, 2005)

MarkD said:


> How about leave all the rules alone... keep all the current classes the same..
> 
> Now, for the people that just want the practice for hunting or the ones that just want to have fun or the newbies that think they would like to see what it is all about let them shoot!!!!
> 
> ...



Now this is a guy thats making sense. I think that could possibly work.


----------



## Ian (May 21, 2002)

Shooting in rangefinder class will make them better in unmarked as well. Because you can judge then use the rangefinder to see how close you were. Then shoot without worry of missing. Unless you botch the shot.


----------



## centerx (Jun 13, 2002)

Some clubs already have a non-competitive division with then intention of letting individuals shoot on there terms . Whatever equipment , Whatever Distance and the use of a rangefinder or not … In fact it made up 40% of our registration last shoot.. I think it's something all clubs can do but we are not really developing competitors and growing the national participation with this class of individuals as well

That's 40% that won't take the game to the next level. Plus .. Why can we not provide a venue for competition for some of these individuals. Many are simply in this class because the guess and miss at 30 yard turkey AND 40 ard deer simply is not to there liking 

Others would get into the hunter division but the rules of that division has ruled out many of the hunters that only have one set up. There chosen methods don't comply with the Hunter class guidelines,

Everybody is basing there visions of growth and participation to there own biases … It's fun in it's current format.. Mulit bows established for different needs.. Estimations skills help with hunting. However in reality this is a very , very small minority that own archery equipment. Heck even in golf all you have to argue about is it fun or not?? Not . It could be fun with fingers, Or marked , Or unmarked, Or with a scope ……

As far as The Rinehart for one style . The Deerman for another , IBO for another and the ASA for another.. That is NOT the answer as well . A person should be able to show up to any organizations events and find a venue they can enjoy competing with a standardized set of rules. 

How successful would golf be if a certain club could be used on one course and not on another.. A ball works on this tour but not on another?? People would be so confused they would just play one game on one course and nothing else… Just like what's gong on in archery right now ..Then … thy would argua about it .. "It's stupid I can't use that ball on this course" …"I can't hit a long ball it's crazy I can't use this on that course" Your not welcomed in my version of the game unless you use these balls .. Or This club… Nope golf has removed all that . Here are the rules period and if you are not on the pro level . Here is a world wide accepted handicap for you .. Or do play a easier nine hole par 3 course .. Or a best ball tournament.. Or A ………….. Get it yet ?? Same RULES but LOTS of ways to compete based on skill set 

To make this work we do not need more targets and separate ranges ( unless participation grows so much it is warranted). Don't use it as an excuse because that's all it is .. An excuse

I stated another poll in the Bow hunting section. With about 50 responses ( I think) ALL use rang finding in some method while hunting. We can argue all we want as to the methods but I don't think anybody can argue that clubs and organizations would love to see steady growth even if it was just in the single digits annually . All I am trying to say is were are NOT catering anything to the MAJORITY of the people with archery equipment . A 3 percent response rate to direct mailing is considered good writhin marketing circles. In other words if you solicit 10,000.00 and you get 300 to take you up on your offer then your not doing to bad. Same thing needs to go on here. Allow Blazer vanes in Bow hunter and 10,000.00 more people just got solicited nationally . Allow a Rangefinder division and another 10,000.00 just got solicited to play. 

Well not real numbers ( probably more ) but you get the point . A few simple changes and 600 more people will come out and play because they can use the only Bow they own or compete in a division that allows then to predetermine the range to the target ( like they do when hunting) That probably equates to 12 more people showing up at your next club shoot. What's wrong?? Your clubs don't want another 12 people and $200.00 a shoot ?? The National competition don't want to see the numbers go from 1,500 participants to 2,100???

Really .. What's the harm considering the possible gain ?? 
l


----------



## Deezlin (Feb 5, 2004)

If I meet many more people like Badfish, I think I will quite 3D. I have some land and I can setup my own range and shoot is the way I want. If you really want to piss some one off, tell them their opinion doesn't matter.

3D isn't an archery contest!!!!! Its a distance judging contest first and an archery contest second!!! If you don't have good eye sight anymore, you will never be in the game!!! I like archery better than distance judging. Oh, I am good enough at it to make a hunting shoot at 15 to 30 yards, but not for the level of competition in the open classes and I love archery too much to be content to shot short shots the rest of my live.

I would give up 3D in a second, if there was more NFAA in my area. I go to local shoots now with a range finder. Some clubs will even refund part of my entry fee because I am shoot is just for FUN. I guess the yardage and then I range find the target. I don't take a score card and I don't keep track of score anymore. I find the whole thing just more enjoyable that way. I only shoot at the IBO Nationals for score.


----------



## centerx (Jun 13, 2002)

Exactly …

Like it or not 3-D IS target archery in the US .. It's the bread and Butter of most clubs and has more participants on a regular basis then any other from of TARGET archery.


So why do some work so hard to rule out all the potential participants to Target archery when a few simple changes will make target archery assessable for all that want to participate?? A few simple changes can accommodate the Target ( marked and hit a spot for score) hard core enthusiast . The traditional 3-Der will not have to give up a thing and all the other hunters in the US can pick and choose without concern as to method or equipment.

The one venue that has the best opportunity to pull it all together and make it something along the likes of golf ( never as big of course) . Chooses to segregate itself based on what the Me's WANT to do and not what archers SHOULD want to do to insure the sports ( not just 3-D ) growths and survival..

Not talking Hunting mind you .. But places to compete and play. 3-D is what's providing that to most clubs and archers right now. If 3-D was not or did not become as popular as it is right now there would be less shoots .. Less clubs… Fewer organizations.. Pro Archery would basically be non-existent . Well the list would go on. Why people would not want this to grow so clubs and Orgs can stay healthy and give the recreational or competitive venues for all to enjoy I will never understand..

Of Course I guess I'm only Crying about it .. Surely enough if we all just keep our mouth shut everything will be OK . Of course 3-D archery is MORE popular now then it was 3 years ago and 5 years ago as well………….. Right??


----------



## low12 (Jan 31, 2005)

Look above to see two posters with a lot of common sense!!!!!!!
Deezlin and Centerx


----------



## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

*Pretty simple*

Stop whining and go call the promoters. There the ones you need to convince it will be the next great thing.

ASA has marked course and its called the simms. You can shoot as many times as you want.

NFAA has marked yardage also at events. Indoors and outdoors. It out there if you really want marked yardage.

Call Jon Rhinehart and ask him to start it up. Call Mike Terrell or Ken. Be your ASA atate rep and attend the meetings and tell them.

Your preaching to wrong guys. We enjoy judging yardage in 3d. Seems many are doing it and no compliants.

Im all for marked yardage. Go for it. I shoot the simms evertime at ASA, we call it the smackdown here at AT.


----------



## Guest (Jun 13, 2005)

Like I said before -------- If its not about competition to you, then don't ask for a separate class to compete in. Just shoot the course with your rangefinder and don't turn in your score. If you want to compete then I suggest you get up and practice. Stop feeling sorry for yourself and put in the time it takes practicing. I don't care how good you are shooting spots. This discussion is not about shooting competitive spots. In case you haven't noticed this is a 3-D forum. I'm not asking for a separate class in spot competition where you put paper targets in the woods at unknown distances am I? I have a great idea!!!!!!!! Let's add one more class to 3-D. How about a class that there are no rules at all. You can shoot from any distance you want, use a recurve, compound, crossbow, rifle, or a flamethrower( although that would be a little tough on the foam targets). And you can write down whatever score you feel you deserve, weather you hit the target or not. Then you can tell everyone what a phenominal 3-D shooter you are and you wont even have to practice. We could even give a $500.00 check to everyone who comes out to the shoot, (even if they didn't compete).
If you really want to increase the numbers at a 3-D shoot, I say thats the way to go.


----------



## centerx (Jun 13, 2002)

Actually the promoters are not the ones you need to convince. It is the clubs that need to start the grass roots movement . They need to reach out to the non participants to see what will work and what won't to increase participation …

After all you don't put the supply before the demand do you? I think the demand may exist but there is no outlet for it. How much demand?? Like I said even 10% would put 100 more people at a 1,000 people national shoot and 10 more at the local level if they normally have 100. 

As far as other venues for such I don't disagree. But like I keep mentioning trying to get participation out of the AVERAGE person with a bow in there hand is the goal. Keeping that in mind…..

There are about 24 3-D around these parts a summer and 1 is marked . The ASA has the Simms yes .. And there are how many of them a year?? So out of the thousands and thousands shoots that go on at the local level nation wide every year when and were can an average Joe bow hunter roll into town and find something to there liking??

Marked will not be the next best thing.. The next best thing will come in the package were you can show up and pick HOW you want to compete or shoot recreationally. 

The Rinehart can roll into town and attract 500 shooters because it is comprtable and friendly to shoot . People can win prizes just for participating. Reding is popular and trhe NFAA marked always has good attendance . Neither one will stand on there own but combined and giving people options at any shoot at any given time will serve as the complete package that can tie all archery venues and hunting styles to one nice little package that can appeal to anybody who want's to play ….On a competitive OR recreational level. 3-D is the only GAME that can appeal across the board. Now the methods need to be tweaked to reach that end

Sure don't see whay this is so hard or why people have so much problems with the concept

So since I'm only whining for my own self serving ends …. Please stop arguing and answer some questions.

Is 3-D on a decline yes or no??
Is it a good idea to have a venue were all styles can come together under one roof Yes or No ??
Is standardizing of rules in the best interest of 3- D archery ? Yes or No??
Would Participation go up a little if SOME KIND of changes were made to existing formats ? Yes Or No

And if answered Yes to some or the majority of these questions .. What are YOUR ideas since mine are only idle whining … Come on badfish you can play .. What are YOUR ideas to try ot get the thousands of bow hunters in your state out and playing the 3-D game. What are YOUR ideas to get the few people that like marked yardage or spot competition out to participate in your clubs 3-D events…

I'm just whining after all… Please fill me in on the Wealth of knowledge everybody seems to possess that will grow or at least maintain the sport of 3-D archery and/or competitive / recreational archery as a whole


----------



## low12 (Jan 31, 2005)

This should be proof to all that Walmart really does sponcer shooters. :wink:


----------



## Jbird (May 21, 2002)

*So What Are We Saying Then?*

That marked yardage would attract people to the game we aren't getting now? Are you suggesting that people should have the option of competing in a class with similar minded people? Would you go as far as to say that the unmarked folks ought to have enough confidence in the wide spread appeal of their venue that they shouldn't be threatened by a marked course or range finder class? I guess not. Because I know all these rational people would see the value and jump on it.
Jbird


----------



## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

*J Bird there is marked yardage shoots*



Jbird said:


> That marked yardage would attract people to the game we aren't getting now? Are you suggesting that people should have the option of competing in a class with similar minded people? Would you go as far as to say that the unmarked folks ought to have enough confidence in the wide spread appeal of their venue that they shouldn't be threatened by a marked course or range finder class? I guess not. Because I know all these rational people would see the value and jump on it.
> Jbird


Its called field archery. I would think anyone that wants marked yardage could try field. I know if 3d goes to marked yardage. Ill be shooting more field events.


----------



## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

*Answer some questions*

Is 3d on the decline. No Consider how many 3d organizations there is, there plenty of 3d but its spread way to thin.

Can making a range finder course make it better. NO My opionion it would spread the archers out in more classes than ever. I dont think it will draw anymore shooters. 

I have nothing against trying anything. If you guys really want marked go try field. Great sport and its all marked.


----------



## PLASTIC PAUL (Sep 19, 2004)

*You Folks don't get it !!!!!!*

All this crap is why we will never see any real money come into our sport !!!! Big time companies don't want to get involved in all this bickering.

This is why Spots will get the major $$$ first. 3-D is toooooo Divided on so may subjects. Make it simple Pins or Slide Bar, that's how it works on Friday nights and ir works pretty well.

BadFish, the mistake you made was how you started this thread. The phrases "Whining" and "Crying" are used way toooo much in 3-D circles.

I enjoy 3-D with my buds but all this crap and the different classes is why i stick to Spots as my main game.


----------



## Jbird (May 21, 2002)

*Dan*

I'm shooting marked and unmarked 3-D and intend to continue. I just think there is room for a range finder class and it would offer people who like to shoot foam an option. I really don't think it would thin the classes down to speak of. I would think it would bring people to the game that wouldn't come other wise. On the National level shoots attendance may be on the rise but I can tell you for sure that local shoots around here are losing ground. If it brings more shooters (any amount) and doesn't prevent you from doing what you love to do, how is this a bad thing?
Jbird


----------



## Shoothappy (Jun 18, 2004)

Could we all just agree and disagree at the same time? My opinion is there are too many organizations to many rules and too many classes now which spread shooters to thin. I know some shooters that have quit shooting 3D and only shoot spots not because they don’t want to judge yardage but because they don’t want to be confused by which set of rules they are playing by at any given shoot. :mg:


----------



## Deezlin (Feb 5, 2004)

reylamb said:


> Riddle me this........
> 
> What is to stop the guys shooting range finder class to discuss the yardage of their target with a group of unknown shooters standing on the target behind them? It would make life very difficult and could possibly give a serious advantage to some shooters shooting in the unknown portion of the event. And marking scorecards with the yardages? Man, that is a ton of work to be done prior to the shoot. It is hard enough to get workers to help set a course without adding the unnecessary burden of marking a bunch of scorecards with yardages. And just who is supposed to range the course anyway? The guys that set it that may be competing the next day? Again, hardly fair.
> 
> Having said that, let me say this. Anyone interested in a range finder shoot, show up at the Gainesville Archery Club shoot for our August shoot.


Just curious, what is to stop the group in front from talking with the group behind now? I think there are ways around this, without makiing it necessary to start another course. Yes, I certainly agree that mark yardage cards would not work. They would be too labor intensive and what is to keep the unmarked shooters from get the cards. If people are going to cheat they will usually find a way. 

First, If you have every shoot some of the pure target shoots like the FITA 1440 you will find that everyone shoot the same yardage. If you use a 40# bow the arc is just higher. I would think that most range finding courses could be used by men or women young or old. There is no need to have excessive speed and poundage on the bows. The distance is known, now as far as up hill and down hill, that still has to be estimated.

If you don't want to have different groups shooting together, don't. Let the unknown shooters go first and then let the range finder class shoot. I would certainly like to go to your shoot, but the distance is excessive. Yes, this is more like field archery, but so what!! 

I am hoping to see more NFAA shoots in Ohio, but they are far and few. There is more activity in Northren Ohio, there is very little within a hundred miles of me and I don't see that changing in the near future. As far as the local clubs they shoot IBO rules and are setup to shoot 3D only. 

Like I said earlier, I really don't care because I don't compete in our local 3D shoots. I usually go with a friend after the other groups have went and don't have a group behind or in front of us.


----------



## Guest (Jun 14, 2005)

Do you guys no how to read? Look at post #66. I'm not saying that rangefinders should never be allowed on a 3-D course. What I am saying is that I am opposed to making a rangefinder class in competition. 
Now to address centerx's questions. 
I do not feel that 3-D is on a decline in participation it only appears to be for the following reasons: 
1) I believe that there are more clubs than in years past with the availability of land to offer 3-D tournaments. And often times there is no communication between these clubs as to who will hold tournaments on which dates. In my area this past weekend there were at least 5 clubs, that were having tournaments, within 40 minutes of my house. I'm sure there were more that I didn't know about. I worked at my club Saturday and shot the M.A.C. Qualifier there in the Team class on Sunday. I'm not sure of the numbers but Ibelive we had about 100 shooters for the weekend. The guys on my team shot another place on Sat. and I'm guessing that they had at least 200 at that shoot. Now if there was only 1 or 2 tourneys in the area then imagine the numbers for these local shoots. The fact that clubs don't comunicate and try to divide up shoot dates is a serious problem. The problem is not that there are declining numbers, it's that there are too many conflicting dates and that thins the numbers at each shoot.
2) There are too many classes already. The M.A.C. has 24 classes, so you take 100 shooters and divide them up in 24 classes and you have about 4 shooters per class. Mine was the only team to shoot this Qualifier. THAT SUCKED!!!! The funny thing is that there were probably 7 classes that noone shot. These are classes that someone fought to create and had a bunch of people asking for and then those people never show up to shoot that class they wanted sooo bad. And how many times have you all seen threads here on AT about some new archer wanting to compete but doesn't know which class to shoot in.
3) Advertising is important and it is nearly non-existent in 3-D tournaments. How do you find out about shoots in your area? Word of mouth is the number one source for locating local shoots. The people you guys are talking about attracting to the sport are not club members or shop owners.
They are the "average person who owns a bow". They watch hunting shows on T.V. and have no idea that there is a tournament, or even a club right down the road. Theres a lot of people who hunt that would be amazed to see some of the unbelievable clubs within a few miles of their house.

It's not a matter of drawing more people to 3-D. The people are there, but the fabric of the 3-D community is spread out so far it's almost transparent.


It would be great to get all styles under one roof but its not going to happen by adding more classes, and its not going to happen by bringing in more shooters and spreading them out even thinner in those new classes.

Now tell me that I'm wrong, go ahead!

We need more advertising, more club to club communication, and fewer classes. The uniformity in class division is a great idea but as long as you have people asking for new classes all the time there will always be an organization that will add them and divide us even further.


----------



## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

*Dont think it will fly*

But some of you try it at your local clubs. We tried it and most didnt come here at are local shoots. Just isnt something many have ask for.


----------



## low12 (Jan 31, 2005)

*Badfish Is Really A Nice Guy????????????*

I think we might need to back off Badfish's case a little. He was nice enough to send me a PM last night, asking if I wanted to join him on the Wal-Mart shooting team. I hated to turn down the invitation, but my rangefinder just want fit in those blue aprons. :wink:


----------



## reylamb (Feb 5, 2003)

Deezlin said:


> Just curious, what is to stop the group in front from talking with the group behind now? I think there are ways around this, without makiing it necessary to start another course. Yes, I certainly agree that mark yardage cards would not work. They would be too labor intensive and what is to keep the unmarked shooters from get the cards. If people are going to cheat they will usually find a way.


Sure as it is now, people may discuss the yardage they just shot a target for amongst themselves, and at times the group behind them may hear the discussion. However, how does the group behind know if the guys were right with their estimations? With rangefinders, they would have no doubt. We have one member that shoots every target for 37 yards, or so he claims. If anyone were to be behind his group and try it they would be in for a very long day.

As far as times go, we try to keep it as informal as possible at the local shoots. Things come up on the weekends around the house and we just might not be able to be at the club for an 8'oclock start, so we just say show up and shoot when you can. While the logical answer is to send range finders on the course at one time and everyone else at another, on the local level it does not work that well. Granted at a big ASA there are set times to shoot and we all set our schedules around it, heck it is the only thing we have going on that weekend, but at the local level, things happen so we need the flexibility of just showing up whenever and shooting when you can. That makes it hard to keep the ranges seperate.


----------



## centerx (Jun 13, 2002)

Not trying to be argumentitive only trying to spur conversation….

Still nobody answers the questions .. I think most know the answers. As far as 3-d participation not going down I have seen and heard nothing else from around the country. However I will admit one can not be everyplace so maybe in some isolated areas it's holding it's own.

Dan I hear what your saying but it's not the point I'm tying to make. Yes you can find other venues but no they are not as prevalent as 3-D or are they as popular . Two local field shoots a year that will further not appeal to the hunting non -participant will do nothing to get people involved . Field and indoor spots are what they are . 3-D is THE GAME that has the chance to wrap it up into the best package available. Then standardize the rules at least to the point that the average hunter with one bow can show up to any shoot and find a class he can shoot in without modifying his equipment. Yep that class exist today .. It's called the Open class … Sorry that's not the vehicle to get people involved for the first time or on a recreational basis.


Lot's of ways to get rangefinders on the course without "giving yardages away" . However even without any special consideration it happens now anyhow. One could structure an event however so no concern is given to the problem .. At least no more then exist today.

As far as the classes yes there are two many However in reality there only needs to be Pins / Slider Release ? Fingers Men and Women to appeal to MOST of who is shooting today…

Open Class - Means / Women Slider / Pins Fingers release .. 8 classes 
Rangefinder - same 
Aided yardage - Same
Bow hunter Release / Fingers Men / Women ( 4) 
Traditional Men /Women ( 2 ) 

30 classes but who did we leave out ?/ Notice how we basically kept the same amount of classes .. Still appealed to 90% of the equipment classes and gave 100% of the people something to compete in bases on skill and desire??


----------



## Guest (Jun 14, 2005)

Center X I'm happy that you have joined the disscussion. I understand what you are saying as far as classes, That is a pretty simple format but it leaves out a few people. Youth and seniors are classes that IMO should not be left out. I don't know what aided yardage is so please explain. I understand that there are several different equipment factors that must be accomidated, ie: release, fingers, traditional. And also there are age and experience factors involved. I am totally in favor of setting a uniform division among all sanctioning bodies, but it wont be easy. Heres my thoughts. I know you may find problems in my proposal, that's fine, I'm sure I haven't thought of everything either. 
3 main divisions Traditional / Fingers / Release
classes for each division MENS OPEN 
WOMENS OPEN
SENIOR OPEN
MENS HUNTER
WOMENS HUNTER
YOUTH 
CUB
RANGEFINDER (NON COMPETITIVE) see post #66 for how I feel this could possibly work. Good idea MARK D
And 2 more classes. Mens Elite(Money) and Womens Elite (Money).

Cash and plaque for Elite classes only. Plaques for all other classes.


This would make 26 classes and I believe could accomidate most people. Any more ideas let's keep them coming.


----------



## Harley Rider (Nov 11, 2004)

I have never been apart of any archery club or event before this year. Been shooting bows for about 25 yrs. Only in my own back yard, outside my office at lunch, and through many deer. This year I joined a local club here in CT. Did my first ever 3D shoot. Not to mention the first time I ever shot with any other archers. I heard just about everything I’ve read here on this very long thread about ranges, bow types, who should be shooting from this pin or that one and so on. 

Here’s a newbie’s take on 3D shoots. Don’t really know anything about what classes shoot where. I am a hunter. I went to shoot 3D for practice with my hunting. I picked the last pin to shoot from (Sharp shooters pin from what I was told) because I already can drill a quarter at 20yds. I need to practice just incase I ever need a second shot. What good will it do me to put a marker on the target or know the yardage? No good at all. There are no markers on my deer in the woods nor is there anything that moves with me when I’m stalking to keep a running distance marker. To me 3D should reflect a hunting situation. If you can’t hit the targets on a 3D course you should not be hunting with a bow. Matter of fact I would like to see the archery test for hunting have a 3D test that you must pass or you don’t get a archery lic to hunt. If you can’t hit the targets when there’s no pressure of an animal seeing you you’re not ready for the woods. I never had to take a shot over 20 yds and have never left a wounded animal in the woods. 

I have a burlap bag I put over a target at my place. Practice picking a spot on it and drilling it like it was a deer. It’s night and day from shooting at a red circle or cross haired target. It’s also a must if you plan on hunting animals. Unless of course your state lets you take them when they still have spots. In that case pick a spot on that veal and drill it. 

Be safe and good luck


----------



## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

*You put range finders out on the course*

Some one will find a way to cheat.

I say if they do a range finder class. Have there own course, limit the classes and give it a shot. Only way I see it working.


----------



## Silent Predator (Jun 14, 2005)

*This is a sad state*

As I sit here and read alot of the postings for this issue it just goes to show what a bunch of lazy, whinning, and crying asses so many have become. What ever happened to working for something. To actually have to earn something is probably a forgotten concept to alot of you. 

3D is suppose to be hard and challenging. It is not suppose to be easy. If you want easy then stay home, sit on the counch and watch t.v. and get fat like alot of you are probably doing right now. Some of you are probably saying that I do not have a clue about what I am talking about. Well wrong again. I have shot on the professional circuit for 5 years now. I work full time, plus own a business of my own. I have two kids and I am on the board for many orgaizations on the local and state level, plus I am the president of a new professional level organization for 3D. 

There are some of you out there that will say that this is not a way that a president should talk. But this is a president that is fed up with the crying. No matter what shoot I go to, there are people that are saying that it was too hard, or the shots were too long. Well how else are you going to get better. If all you want to do is shoot for fun then stay home. You do not go to a TOURNAMENT for it to be easy. You go to compete agains other shooters to see who the best is.

This is the problem with people today and this is what we are passing down to our kids. You are passing down that you do not have to work for anything out there. Everything will get handed to you. Well welcome to the real world people. God forbid you actually have to go out and work for something. To really put in an effort at something.

So I say quit the complaining and start putting in an effort at something. 

And if anyone has something to say to me about this then they can e-mail me at [email protected].


----------



## Guest (Jun 14, 2005)

Harley and DB, you are both right. I completely agree with what you are saying.As far as the cheating goes, its already there, alot of it happens at local shoots.


----------



## JAVI (Jun 19, 2003)

*Silent Predator*

So.... 

Break the news... what is the name of your "NEW" organization, how many members and what is your schedule and format....

Or are you just going to bust everyones chops for suggesting a method of growth for the sport as a whole (right or wrongly) I do believe they have that right....


----------



## Guest (Jun 14, 2005)

Hi MIKE--- Nice to see you. Now this is a man who knows his business I can assure you of that. He has put me in my place on the 3-D course several times. He has worked and put in his practice time.


----------



## Silent Predator (Jun 14, 2005)

*New Orgaization*

Javi,

You asked what the new organization is. It is the Professional 3D Archery Association. It is brand new and we are just getting it off of the ground. The concept here is that there will be standard of what is a pro. This is something that you will have to earn and not just pay a fee to do. We are setting up a tournament that will go from the first of January to the first of september. It will go to a different spot each weekend and the shooters with the highest average will take home the pot. We are getting alot of the archery community and companies outside the archery community involved in this so the purse will continue to grow. We are also talking with certain t.v. areas about doing a televised championship shoot. Like I said this is in the early beginings and the tour will start in 2006.


----------



## Silent Predator (Jun 14, 2005)

*Badfish*

Hey don't you ever work.

Are you shooting tonight?


----------



## JAVI (Jun 19, 2003)

Silent Predator said:


> Javi,
> 
> You asked what the new organization is. It is the Professional 3D Archery Association. It is brand new and we are just getting it off of the ground. The concept here is that there will be standard of what is a pro. This is something that you will have to earn and not just pay a fee to do. We are setting up a tournament that will go from the first of January to the first of september. It will go to a different spot each weekend and the shooters with the highest average will take home the pot. We are getting alot of the archery community and companies outside the archery community involved in this so the purse will continue to grow. We are also talking with certain t.v. areas about doing a televised championship shoot. Like I said this is in the early beginings and the tour will start in 2006.


That's great and I wish you the best of luck... Hopefully you will be able to draw real money.... into the Pro side of the sport and make it a viable tour...

Although I might suggest that the Pro side and venue does not have to reflect the growth of the am ranks... I would like to see participation on both sides of the street grow and infighting isn't the way to accomplish that...


----------



## centerx (Jun 13, 2002)

I kind of coined the term . I consider any time you don't have to guess the Yardage 100% you are in an "aided" yardage class. I went to a shoot a long time ago that had a white flag exactly 20 yards from the Furthest stake for example . This served as a reference but still not give you the yardage right on . For example " is that Deer 8 yards past the flag or 12" 

That would not work I you wanted to use the same course for Open shooters but you could have the same thing on the back of "special " score cards for that class. Kind of a "heres a hint take it from there " class compared to all out guessing or all out fixed yardage with a range Finder. It really is the way the Majority of people hunt. Especially from tree stands and ground blinds. Most do not get to range the target to the animal directly and most are not taking WAGS at turkeys at 30 yards either.

No I don't think youth and Sr. should be left out either. We are trying another neat thing on the local level that I suggested. We purchased a bunch of frames for 99 cents or so each and got the best of the best computer programs to turn out 1st- 3rd place certificates on the computer Nice graphics totally customizable to the club and the shoot itself . Basically the cost is a buck and the paper and ink it's printed on for trophies What you end up with is a nice plaque to hang on the wall .. The perfect thing for the "aided division" so as to not break a clubs bank account or purchase a bunch of trophies that may not get used because of all the divisions. Big time trophies and Money go to the Open division .. Gives people something to play in and feel good about now while developing skills for the big time….

And if you do not have the skills and desires for the big time That's fine with me as well … there something for the "little guy as well"

DB there are simply ways to structure it so there are no problems. We have had rangefinders on our ranges for 3 years now . In it's own division and in the non-competitive classes . I have never heard of a problem or complaint and we do NOTHING to take special considerations to prevent cheating as well. 

Harley .. I'm not suggesting the kind of shoot you are portraying as well. In my apparently sick little world you will have the Choice to shoot however you want.


----------



## Guest (Jun 14, 2005)

I do believe I will be shooting tonight. I shoot every night that's how it's done isn't it. Will we have marked yardage at Tim's or not?


----------



## Silent Predator (Jun 14, 2005)

*Two many classes*

Shoothappy,

You made a comment that there are two many classes in a 3D tournament. I agree. With the Professional 3D Archery Association we are going to try and change that. Now I know what I am about to say will piss some people off, but what else is new.

The theory behind the P3DAA is to truely find out who the best is. I have been shooting along time and I have seen people with hunting gear wipe the earth with someone set up with all the new fancy scopes and long stabilizers. So we at P3DAA will have three classes. A men's class, a women,s class, and a team class. That is it. No marked yardages, no range finders. Just good old guessing and binos. If you want mor information the web site is www.p3daa.tripod.com.

Give it a shot. You might just find out that working for something can be alot of fun. Just ask badfish and hotrod1.


----------



## Silent Predator (Jun 14, 2005)

*Have you lostyour marbles*

Badfish,

Do I need to shoot you with an arrow.Of course not. Marked yardage is not true 3D. It is all unmarked out to 150 yards. Are you man enough.


----------



## JAVI (Jun 19, 2003)

Silent Predator said:


> Shoothappy,
> 
> You made a comment that there are two many classes in a 3D tournament. I agree. With the Professional 3D Archery Association we are going to try and change that. Now I know what I am about to say will piss some people off, but what else is new.
> 
> ...


class structure sounds good also... but your link don't work...


----------



## Silent Predator (Jun 14, 2005)

*You are right*

Javi,

You are right. The am ranks are the true measure of the sport. That is why local clubs are so very important. It is where I and alot of shooters have gained our skills to go to the big leagues so to say. It is where kids can go and have fun shooting. The key is to have fun. Teach the younger ones the right way to shoot so that they stay with the sport and it grows. One way that I try and help is to teach the youg kids. I am owner of Silent Predator Archery School and I give alot of time to kids. I do not charge kids under 12 for lessons. I want them to get the basics and then have fun with it. Because without the kids the sport dies and every one seems to forget this. Without clubs the sport dies. So go out and join a club and help sport the sport that we all love.


----------



## Guest (Jun 14, 2005)

JAVI-- I think that the course this conversation has taken with center x and myself is the way to foster growth at the local level. Of course like I said before there has to be some communication between the clubs locally and possibly even nationally. Maybe what is needed is an organization to bring the clubs together as it's main focus, and get them all moving in the direction of growth and uniformity. This would increase the participation and offer a more accessible pool for the pro ranks to draw on, while at the same time give the competitive participants more clarity and focus in what it takes to get to the next level of competition.


----------



## Silent Predator (Jun 14, 2005)

*Correction*

The proper web site address for the Professional 3D Archery Association is http://p3daa.tripod.com


----------



## Guest (Jun 14, 2005)

*Silent P*

Yes I am man enough!!! If your wife is home ask her to pack a bath towel for you. That mathews crying towel isn't going to be big enough to wipe up all the tears you will be crying.


----------



## Silent Predator (Jun 14, 2005)

*Wrong Again*

Badfish,

If I remember last night it was you and hotrod1 that were doing the crying. Didi you or did you not come in SECOND.


----------



## centerx (Jun 13, 2002)

Silent Pred…

I could write a book on how wrong your comments were I'll just stick to my opinions on the subject..

1) Good luck with the Organization they way you laid it out sounds exactly what is needed in the Pro ranks 

2) Not crying at all I'm only proposing ways to hello recruiter develop and feed your ranks . After all .. What good is the TV coverage is nobody cares to watch and if you think there is enough that care now .. More would be better.. Heck even the Armatures who are not good enough and compete on the local dirt tracks for 10 laps every weekend … tune into the NASCAR races on TV .. Lots of venues for Golphers , racers, poker players billiard enthusiast, Beach Volleyball to play with easier rules , easier competition and easier courses and in turn they tune in to watch there favorite Pros in the sports on TV.. And yes ever year a few of these fat and lazy TV watching amatures who got hooked because there was an "easy" venue that they could start competition in on easier terms move right up into the big leagues


----------



## Guest (Jun 14, 2005)

*centerx*

You are right, there has to be an interested group to watch pro 3-D.
And that group will be developed and expanded by the local clubs in the ways that we have discussed earlier. We are now talking about 2 seperate things. Local shoots and Pro shoots. But the big money can promote both of these things. Budweiser advertises directly at NASCAR and they advertise indirectly through their distributors at local races. The same can happen in archery. But we have to find a way to put our sport in their face to make it worthwhile to them. To do that we need to advertise our sport to let them know it is there. That is why an organization like the P3-DAA is perfect. If we can grow the numbers and have a trail like Pro Bass Fishing, It puts a simple system in their face that is easy to sponsor. They kick in X amount of $ and they get major advertising at major events each weekend and that advertising hits their target demographic. Eventually this advertising trickles down to the local levels just like with auto racing. Do you see what I'm getting at?


----------



## bowhntr (Jan 25, 2004)

I've only had a little experience with marked yardage 3D and this is what I found. After hitting the IBO ring approximately 10 shots in a row, I came to realize these targets are going to get the he77 shot out of them in a hurry. In no time at all you won't need an orange dot to tell where to shoot . . . just go for the hole and hope it doesn't pass through. :thumbs_do 

Our club cannot afford to have that happen. So then what would you have to do to cover your expences but raise the prices?!? Now you'd lose all the whiners who complain about paying a few extra bucks to shoot.  That would negate any new shooters brought in for marked yardage.

The way we set up our course and awards, we are growing our numbers significantly (35 per weekend two years ago to 100+ now) and our targets last much longer. :thumbs_up All our shooters leave satisfied, happy and challenged as much as they want or can handle. :smile:


----------



## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

*Good post here*



 bowhntr said:


> I've only had a little experience with marked yardage 3D and this is what I found. After hitting the IBO ring approximately 10 shots in a row, I came to realize these targets are going to get the he77 shot out of them in a hurry. In no time at all you won't need an orange dot to tell where to shoot . . . just go for the hole and hope it doesn't pass through. :thumbs_do
> 
> Our club cannot afford to have that happen. So then what would you have to do to cover your expences but raise the prices?!? Now you'd lose all the whiners who complain about paying a few extra bucks to shoot.  That would negate any new shooters brought in for marked yardage.
> 
> The way we set up our course and awards, we are growing our numbers significantly (35 per weekend two years ago to 100+ now) and our targets last much longer. :thumbs_up All our shooters leave satisfied, happy and challenged as much as they want or can handle. :smile:



I honestly never thought about this. The 12 rings would be shot up in no time. Targets wouldnt last long. Thats a fact. Maybe the guys using range finder would pay the extra fee. Tell most of my buddies the distance under 35 yards and the 12 would get shot up quickly. Good post and good point.


----------



## Jbird (May 21, 2002)

*Might be a Good Point Except............*

Most people report the scores on the marked courses are no higher than the scores on the unmarked. With the Pros I feel sure the 12's would be shot out in short order but then again the Pro's shoot them out on unmarked as well.
Jbird


----------



## Deezlin (Feb 5, 2004)

Silent Predator said:


> As I sit here and read alot of the postings for this issue it just goes to show what a bunch of lazy, whinning, and crying asses so many have become. What ever happened to working for something. To actually have to earn something is probably a forgotten concept to alot of you.
> 
> 3D is suppose to be hard and challenging. It is not suppose to be easy. If you want easy then stay home, sit on the counch and watch t.v. and get fat like alot of you are probably doing right now.


Mike, I believe if anyone need an attitude adjustment, it is probably you. If you take a look at my profile, I am old enough to be your father, I was working before you was borned as a matter of fact, I had already quite archery and bow hunting the first time before you was borned.

Not everyone is a professional archer and run a business for archers. I do this for pleasure and FUN. If I don't get pleasure and FUN from my hobbies, I stop doing them. The majority of people have a full platter of activities to do between work and family. If 3D does not get away for the full fledged competive menu is now has going, it will decrease in popularity rather than increase. I think many local clubs are beginning to see that already. I am glad you are a professional archer, but don't forget you clientel is probably not and never will be. Just remember those lazy, whinning, and crying asses are the ones who will or won't put money in your pocket.


----------



## Silent Predator (Jun 14, 2005)

*Let me Clarify*

I see that I need to clarify what I meant in my posting.

I was not trying to loop everyone in to one group as lazy. Not by any means. And yes if you are in it for the fun; which is why we all should do it. What I was meaning buy saying that the crying needs to stop is this: I have been to many shoots on the local, state, national, and international level and have heard people complain about the course being to hard. These people are the ones that shoot from the elite, or the money stakes. I am sorry but if you are shooting from those stakes then you need to earn it and not have it handed it to you. 

And yes alot of my students are in it for fun. But you do not go to an instructor to stay a so so shooter. You find a coach or an instructor to get better. Which means that you have to practice extra to do this. You do not send your kids to do music lessons and then not make them practice. RIght? 

Tournaments are suppose to be a challenge. Just like spots. We do not have people that are shooting spot tournaments asking to have the target moved closer do we? The fact of tournaments is to see who the better shooter is. It is supose to be a challenge. This will tell who is the better shooter. 

So I hope that this clarifies waht I said in my other post. And I want to thank the couple of people that took the time to e-mail me and address me in their post about what I said. It is nice to see that there are people out there that are not afriad to speak their mind and that they are passionate about their sport.

Take care everyone and shoot well.


----------



## low12 (Jan 31, 2005)

Silent Predator must think he has no need for an exhaust fan in his bathroom. Sure wouldn't want any part of an organization that he is trying to run. :angry:


----------



## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

*JBird*



Jbird said:


> Most people report the scores on the marked courses are no higher than the scores on the unmarked. With the Pros I feel sure the 12's would be shot out in short order but then again the Pro's shoot them out on unmarked as well.
> Jbird



You would not want to buy the targets on the simms range at ASA. 12's are destroyed. Big fat holes. Known distance most would go for it evertime. I would.


----------



## PLASTIC PAUL (Sep 19, 2004)

*Hey S.P.*

It was nice to hear back from you and hopefully the Pro Tour you are putting together will have a stop in my neck of the woods so i can observe some of the shooting. Maybe we will cross paths this winter in my Spottie travels. It would appear that we agree on many aspects of this great sport.

Maybe someday i will be shooting Pro 3-D but for now i will observe and stick to my multi-colored rings.


----------



## hotcarhotrods1 (Jun 15, 2005)

:beer: :beer: :beer: :beer: :beer: :beer: :beer: :beer: :beer: :beer: :beer:  wellf hearv goevs nuwfing, stop the :sad: for you wange hunters that need a wangefinder maybe we could give you a ride to the next target or draw your bow back and hold it real still for you :wink: what do you think is that fair to you,cause thats what you are really asking for to take that work out of it work is what you call it i myself call it sport fun good use of free time and a way to prove that you can do what wangefinder can do, do something that we started to do before the wangefinders came out, is it really that hard to get up and pace off 20 30 40 50 60 70 80 90 100yrd and look back at it and say self remember what this looks like or is it to hard to pry yourself away from my kind thoughts, :shade:


----------



## Silent Predator (Jun 14, 2005)

*I am no better*

low12,

I do not think that I am better than the next person. I just believe in working for what I achieve and not having it handed to me. That is all. I have worked very hard to get were I am today and I am just tired of running into people that what everything handed to them. And everyone has seen it happen either on the archery range or at a regular job.

So if you disagree with what I said that is fine. That is great thing about this country. You can have your own opinion. 

Good luck in your archery adventures.


----------



## Guest (Jun 16, 2005)

*Tim*

Nice to see you too. I'm sorry I missed you. I was at the shop fletching all night. See you tomorrow night at Mike's. I hope he has enough arrows. If there would have been another hour of light he would have had to refill his quiver. :smile: :smile:


----------



## Guest (Jun 16, 2005)

low12 said:


> Silent Predator must think he has no need for an exhaust fan in his bathroom. Sure wouldn't want any part of an organization that he is trying to run. :angry:



Your right, you wouldn't!!!!! Because we would make short work of putting you in your place. You haven't made a single inteligent comment yet. All you do is hide in your little hole and pop your empty head out every now and then. Why is it you don't come out in the open and give us a look at the wealth of knowledge you have in your head? I'm guessing you have a need for attention. Well, I'm going to give it to you. Since your too shy to come out into the open and let us get a good look at you, I'm going to give everyone here a peak into the mouse-hole your hiding in.
I'm guessing that you have never gotten much positive attention in your life. The only time anyone ever even noticed you were there, is when you messed something up. All your life you have known you were insignificant, but did not understand why. Everything you touched went wrong. Now you think that you can poke and prod at people annonymously and cause a little havok. You enjoy seeing other people frustrated by things you do now, because you think that brings them down to your level, it makes you feel better about the mess that is your life. Well, I tell you what, you are the same person you always were. INSIGNIFICANT!!!!! Do you want to know why? It is because you lack self control, and you constantly focus your energy on bringing people down to your level. The worste part of a guy like you is that you already know this, but you refuse to change. You think that if you can just make the whole world ugly, that it would make you a better person in the eyes of others.
I hate to break the news to you but, even if you could bring everyone in the world to the the emotional state your in, it's not going to change who you are. You would still be INSIGNIFICANT!!!!!


----------



## Biscuits (Jun 1, 2005)

After all the comments I've read regarding this subject, some of you need to lighten up. I'm blind in one eye and been that way for over 30 years. Luckily my driving hasn't suffered. I tend to judge things at a much closer distance as opposed to running into things before hitting the brakes. As far as 3D shoots or hunting (I don’t hunt) I cannot judge distances at all. This makes 3D shoots pointless without a rangefinder. I assume I don’t qualify as handicapped and feel this could be an unfair advantage since I’m not confined to a wheelchair and I have full use of my arms, legs, etc.. Other than the rangefinder, I abide by the rules of clubs sponsoring the various shoots I attend. Even with the use of a rangefinder I have yet to score high enough to take any trophies, medals, etc.. I shoot for no other purpose than for the enjoyment. After all, isn’t that the bottom line for everyone? I don’t expect or ask for any special treatment. Believe me I have my own set of challenges. Mainly returning home with as many arrows as I left with. All I’m asking is does anyone have a problem with that?


----------



## Jabwa (Dec 10, 2004)

Another 3D thread- same old crap. One guy says if you don't like it the way it is, go home! We don't need you! Another guy is upset about sponsored shooters- he shoots to WIN!!! Some want orange spots. Others say they don't want to shoot at spots, but don't like people who shoot black nocks (I haven't figured out yet why they want people to shoot yellow nocks when they don't want to shoot at spots). Some want a rangefinder class. Some want marked yardage. I shoot 3D for fun and for hunting practice, not to beat people, and I use pins because it's what I use when I hunt. Everyone else in the Master Senior class uses Freestyle equipment now, so I have a slight handicap, but who cares? Oh, by the way, I shoot freestyle for marked yardage spot shoots. I wish I could take a rangefinder along on 3D shoots so I could see why I missed (I could learn something that way), but someone would say I was cheating. Pacing the targets off when we go up to pull arrows works pretty well and I can see if I was off on my yardage or if it was just a lousy shot. That way I can learn something. I shoot marked yardage spots also and if I miss I instantly know exactly why, so I can correct for my next shot. I'm sorry all you 3Ders, but in my opinion marked yardage spot shoots (read this Field Tournaments) is pure archery. 3D is a fun archery game for hunters, and more recently, for wannabe spot shooters who don't want to learn enough about archery to be competitive in marked yardage spot shoots. Oh, I agree, some have gotten very good at judging yardage, and some are very knowledgeable archers and very good shots, but I bet most of these also shoot spot shoots. Simply shooting 200 arrows a day, as some have said, does not make one an accomplished archer. Sadly, 3D is no longer a hunting game: the 10 ring is a kill, so what, then, is an 11? An even "better" kill? You guys kill me!


----------



## Mag-Tek (Jan 22, 2005)

This is a hot topic, to hot.

Any archery organized sport will eather be open to new things or fail. In my 39 years of shooting I have seen that happen. Before my time it has happend.

I seen a pole on range finders for hunting that showed 20% use them on game before they shoot at a deer. I respect that instead of a guess. If you only shoot at a deer at 20 yards your good. But some can shoot a deer at 100 yards if they know the distance. 

When IBO and ASA inproved on the old broad head shoots that NFAA had started we got a few new clubs in this. The new clubs did a great job and helped archery grow.

A range finder division would help new and old archers in many ways. New cant guess yardage well, old archers with slower bows feel left out.

The first that brings on a rangefinder division will grow much fatser.


----------



## low12 (Jan 31, 2005)

badfish said:


> Your right, you wouldn't!!!!! Because we would make short work of putting you in your place. You haven't made a single inteligent comment yet. All you do is hide in your little hole and pop your empty head out every now and then. Why is it you don't come out in the open and give us a look at the wealth of knowledge you have in your head? I'm guessing you have a need for attention. Well, I'm going to give it to you. Since your too shy to come out into the open and let us get a good look at you, I'm going to give everyone here a peak into the mouse-hole your hiding in.
> I'm guessing that you have never gotten much positive attention in your life. The only time anyone ever even noticed you were there, is when you messed something up. All your life you have known you were insignificant, but did not understand why. Everything you touched went wrong. Now you think that you can poke and prod at people annonymously and cause a little havok. You enjoy seeing other people frustrated by things you do now, because you think that brings them down to your level, it makes you feel better about the mess that is your life. Well, I tell you what, you are the same person you always were. INSIGNIFICANT!!!!! Do you want to know why? It is because you lack self control, and you constantly focus your energy on bringing people down to your level. The worste part of a guy like you is that you already know this, but you refuse to change. You think that if you can just make the whole world ugly, that it would make you a better person in the eyes of others.
> I hate to break the news to you but, even if you could bring everyone in the world to the the emotional state your in, it's not going to change who you are. You would still be INSIGNIFICANT!!!!!



Badfish, I would like to see things from your point of view, but I can't stick my head that far up my a~~.


----------



## bowhntr (Jan 25, 2004)

*Sorry*



Biscuits said:


> After all the comments I've read regarding this subject, some of you need to lighten up. I'm blind in one eye and been that way for over 30 years. Luckily my driving hasn't suffered. I tend to judge things at a much closer distance as opposed to running into things before hitting the brakes. As far as 3D shoots or hunting (I don’t hunt) I cannot judge distances at all. This makes 3D shoots pointless without a rangefinder. I assume I don’t qualify as handicapped and feel this could be an unfair advantage since I’m not confined to a wheelchair and I have full use of my arms, legs, etc.. Other than the rangefinder, I abide by the rules of clubs sponsoring the various shoots I attend. Even with the use of a rangefinder I have yet to score high enough to take any trophies, medals, etc.. I shoot for no other purpose than for the enjoyment. After all, isn’t that the bottom line for everyone? I don’t expect or ask for any special treatment. Believe me I have my own set of challenges. Mainly returning home with as many arrows as I left with. All I’m asking is does anyone have a problem with that?


I'm sorry but I don't buy your excuse one bit, you see I'm also blind in one eye and have been for 40 years now. I have some of the same problems driving as you do but adjust to it.

As far as how it affects my 3D shooting, I couldn't say for sure since I've been this way too long to know any different. One thing I do know is I have to work hard at it to be successful. I have been quite successful on the local and state level. I'm consistanly in the top of the open or challenge divisions around here. I win about 1/4 - 1/3 of the events. Three years ago I took 2nd in our state 3D Pro/Challenge division using fixed pins. I do not know how to bracket targets to judge distance, I just shoot alot and learn what each target is supposed to like like at different distances.

I love 3D as it is now even though I may be "handicaped" in some way that affects my distance judgment, but boy does it feel sweet when I come out on top against non-handicapped archers. For the most part, I don't really even consider myself handicapped, because I will not let that be a crutch or excuse for bad outings.

Now to be fair to you and every other blind archer, I am single and have lots of time on my hands to shoot lots of events (25+ per year) so I do get lots of practice at many different clubs. I realize not everyone can shoot that much so it may be harder to reach loftier scores. Bottom line is, the way 3D is now, the truely hard working and dedicated archers will become the best if they want to. I for one do not need or want to know the distance, have a dot to aim at, or have any other artificial help. I can hit the targets whether there 20 yards or 70 yards out.

My .02 for what its worth.


----------



## Guest (Jun 17, 2005)

*Bowhntr*

Thanks man, you've just made our point for us. You have worked hard at overcoming obstacles, to achieve something that was important to you. You are a fine example of the point we are trying to get across. For everyone that reads this post, please listen carefully. This is the kind of example I feel we want our sport to set to newcomers and to children in general. This is the stuff that a competitor is made of. This is the stuff that real pro's are made of. And BOWHNTR, No, You aint handicapped!!! It's wierd how the world looks at things isn't it. Your drive and competitive spirit far outweight any deficiency in vision. Keep pluggin' X's. Maybe I'll see you at a shoot sometime.


----------



## bigE (Jun 11, 2002)

badfish, Silent Predator & the rest of your so called crew.. you guys have the biggest case of *pruritus ani* ever seen on this board.

How can anybody speak so arrogantly about themselves is beyond me.

It looks to me as if you boys have been on the couch yourselves & need to get out & practice, practice, practice..

Break out the rangefinders boys you just might find that they *WILL* help *YOUR* game :tongue:

If you're going to talk the talk, you really need to *SHOOT THE SHOT* & I just don't see it here boys  










Since you boys are from Reedsburg *WE ARE ALL* looking forward to you shooting here on July 2nd... ASA type shoot... Rinehardt targets, Rinehardt low 12's, shootoff at 5 p.m.

You shouldn't get lost... Mikes been here before 

' bigE '


----------



## Guest (Jun 17, 2005)

Bob E. Where is your score? You seem to believe that we said we win every time. If you know Mike you know he was out for a back injury for a while, as for Darren and Tim, that was the first 3-D tournament they *EVER* shot. Noone wins every time. And I don't care who you think you are because I don't see your score anywhere. My name is NEAL AMOS, that was my 2nd, 3-D EVER. I shot the hunter stakes. That was the last time. Now you can check me out on the M.A.C. website. The Blackhawk M.A.C. was my first ever shoot. Shot the M.A.C. by accident. I have shot a few since those. All elite stakes. I'll look forward to handing it to you. How long you been shooting? What stakes do you shoot from? Let's get-r-dun. You may beat me, the best of luck to you. But curious, if you don't beat me, then what will you do. If you get inched out by a point or two, by someone who never touched a bow before in their life, before august, what will you do. I just want to make sure that you are going to shoot the elite stakes right? Just asking because I don't see your score anywhere.


----------



## Guest (Jun 17, 2005)

Big E where did you go? I've made no secret that I'm New to shooting. It was discussed previously in this thread. Heck, it's in my profile. I love it that you called me out. Nice!!!! Will we shoot together? I'd like to. And I think that would be the right thing to do in all fairness. I can't speak for the others, but I'm sure they will make a point of being there too. Even if they don't. I will.


----------



## Guest (Jun 17, 2005)

Another fine example of what I'm talking about. COMPETITION!!!!! I ain't going to run and hide. Is that what you thought I'd do? Is that what you would do? Sure, your score may beat my score. But you won't ever beat me. NEVER!!!!! I have to respect you for calling me out. Heck you've been on AT for longer than I've been shooting, I would have done the same thing. I just want to know-------------------- WHAT IF? Maybe you should ask around. Check the score I shot from the OPEN stakes in the M.A.C. (3rd tourney ever) at South Central. Check the score, when they post it, that I shot from the OPEN stakes for TEAM at Poynette ( 4th tourney ever) , and Mike tied in my peep, put on my nocks, and I sighted it in at the course. I had a new string put on the night before, and then someone brought my bow to the course that morning. Set it up in the back of my truck, took about 15 shots to sight it in, and shot my score. Ask some of the people that have shot league with me, what the odds would be on me and you. PLEASE ASK!!!
I'm not as arrogant as you might think. I know there is a better chance of you winning than me. But I aint coming to lay down. I aint coming to smooch your booty. I'm coming to win. And if you are so arrogant as to think that I can't beat your score, then I say again. Maybe you should ask around. And then ask yourself, WHAT IF???



Also for those that are interested, I will make sure the score is posted, WIN or LOSE.


----------



## low12 (Jan 31, 2005)

*Great Post bigE*

Look who's doing the whinning, crying and making excusses now. Badfish forgot to mention that the battery in his rangefinder was dead.


----------



## Jabwa (Dec 10, 2004)

See what I mean? Ho-humm. Makes me tired


----------



## Scottie (Oct 29, 2004)

*Lighten Up Badfish!* 

I love 3D the way it is as well. I enjoy the *self challenge * of unmarked targets and unmarked yardage and will choose to shoot that class versus maked yardage and marked targets. 

I do however, also favor any variation of 3D at it's current level. I shoot an indoor course once in a while and you pretty much know the yardage within 1 or 2 at worst everytime. I just expect my scores to be higher in this case. It's all relative.

I think the thing peevin' some archers about marked yardage is the old ego thing. "He shot a 330, but he used a range finder". Well, so what. If that's how he enjoys shooting, let him shoot that way. As long as there are different classes to keep things level, let 'em all play. Inviting more people into this discipline would certainly benefit the clubs struggling to stay alive and it would certainly benefit archery as a whole.


----------



## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

*Dang BigE*



bigE said:


> badfish, Silent Predator & the rest of your so called crew.. you guys have the biggest case of *pruritus ani* ever seen on this board.
> 
> How can anybody speak so arrogantly about themselves is beyond me.
> 
> ...


You mean we have to shoot good to comment  and have opionions.


----------



## Guest (Jun 17, 2005)

*Thanks DB!!!*

I appreciate the response. Like I said before, I know guys who can put me in my place. I'm not the best, Never said I was. But I compete. and to me thats what a tournament is about.


----------



## Guest (Jun 17, 2005)

*Big E*

I just talked to Jeff at Badgerland and he said that I aint got a chance. And you know what, I believe him. But I will be there. Is this in Reedsburg? I got the impression from your post that this shoot is in Baraboo, but Jeff said Reedsburg. Let me know!


----------



## nub. (Mar 13, 2004)

*On fire!*

MBO 
Shawn 
Malm 
blue 
Rockford 
295 
7 


MBO 
Scott 
Rhyner 
blue 
Waunakee 
294 
13 


MBO 
Tim 
Rau 
blue 
Davis 
287 
8 


MBO 
Joshua 
Schmid 
blue 
Mt. Horob 
279 
10 


MBO 
Troy 
Wurtz 
blue 
Janesville 
276 
5 


MBO 
Lonnie 
Topham 
blue 
Loves Park 
276 
2 


MBO 
Sam 
Graceffa 
blue 
Rockford 
275 
6 


MBO 
Glen 
Dauenbugh 
blue 
Rockford 
274 
7 


MBO 
Neal 
Amos 
blue 
Pardeeville 
254 
6 


MBO 
Michael 
Ron 
blue 
Reedsburg 
245 
1 


MBO 
Darren 
Hon 
blue 
Reedsburg 
234 
2


----------



## Silent Predator (Jun 14, 2005)

*Explain to me*

Big E,

Please show me where I said that I was the best out here shooting. I never said that I was the best. Never claim to be. If you can find out where I said that and show me in my own words then I will shut up. But what I did say is that when you shoot a tournament you need to earn it. No rangefinders or anything else. That is what I said. Sorry that my opinion has bothered you. 

Now the idea of posting one of my scores was clever. But it does not bother me. I shot bad that day. No excuses, just bad shooting on my part. Once again I never said I was the best. But the one thing that I did miss was seeing your score and what class did you shoot. You posted mine why not yours.

And from what I hear you are a pretty good shot yourself. I am sure that you worked very hard to get where you are at. But you have never answered the question that was posted. Do you believe rangefinders have a place in tournaments?

And I am extending an invitation to you to shoot with us at Reedsburg. I was already planning on going to the shoot so do not think that you calling me out has anything to do with it. But I would be honored for you to shoot with us. So come out and have fun with us. And in the future when you want to post the names of people that shoot with me and want to try and embarass all of us on this site, try to get the right names posted. One of the names that you posted does not even get on this site.

Your friend in archery
Michael


----------



## Jabwa (Dec 10, 2004)

And more....yadayadayada! Gentlemen shoot archery, folks!


----------



## P.L. Archery (Apr 14, 2005)

badfish,

So, are you up to the challenge of the worlds toughest 3D shoot or not?

Since you didn't respond to my first post, I'll take that as a no. Too bad, it's just what you seem to like.


----------



## PLASTIC PAUL (Sep 19, 2004)

*Lol*

FOTFLMAO!!!!!!

Yah well my dog is bigger than your dog and he barks louder.

You guys are TOOO MUCH for me.........

This has been very entertaining !!!!!!!

Ya'll should try De-Caf !!!!!


----------



## hotcarhotrods1 (Jun 15, 2005)

HI THERE BIG----E NICE TO RUFFLE YOUR FEATHERS BUT WHY ????????????????????????????????????????????????ALL I OR ANY ONE SAID WAS THAT RANGE FINDERS HAVE NO PLACE IN A TOURNAMENT DO THINK OTHERWISE I DONT IF SO SORRY, AND FOR THE SCORES LISTED THANKS IAM TIM AND DAMN PRODE OF THE SCORE I SHOT THAT DAY BAD WATHER RAIN SNOW WIND AND OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOMY FIRST TIME EVER SHOOTING 3-D AND ALSO AT YOUR STAKES AND CAME IN 11TH I THINK THAT IS SOMETHING TOSAY ABOUT PRACTICE PRACTICE PRACTICE AND WITH A HUNTING BOW ON TOP OF IT,SORRY YOU FEEL LIKE YOU HAVE TO BASH NEW SHOOTERS TO MAKE YOUR SELF FEEL BETTER BUTT IT DOES NOT BOTHER ME IT ONLY DRIVES ME TO BE BETTER AND PROVE TO MYSELF THAT I CAN DO AS GOOD OR BETTER THAN OTHER PEOPLE IN MY CLASS, SO THANK YOU AGAING FOR THE DRIVE TO BE BETTER,OOOOOOOOOOOOO AND I CAN NOT WAIT TO FIND OUT YOUR FIRST YEARS SCORE AND SEE HOW GREAT YOU WERE, BUT THE WHOLE POINT WAS DO YOU THINK RANGE FINDERS HAVE A PLACE IN ATOURNAMENT?? IF SO THAN YOU SHOULD TALK TO A NAT EVENT HOLDER LIKE THE MAC AND TALK THEM IT TO IT,SORRY TO PISS YOU OFF BUT YOU POINTED OUT EVERY ONES FLAWS BUT YOUR OWN! SELF CENTERED I CALL THAT, SEE YOU AT THE NEXT SHOOT ,WITH MY FREINDS WHO ALSO LOVE TO SHOOT AND ENJOY THE OUTDOORS WE DONT THINK WERE THE BEST BUT I THINK WE COULD BE GREAT!WITH THE DRIVE LIKE YOU HAVE GIVING ME THANKS AGAING BIG-EEEEEEEEEE( LET US KNOW WHAT TIME A DAY WE CAN SHOOT WITH YOU SOUNDS LIKE A NOTHER GREAT 3-D TIME )FOCUS AND AND RELAX AND IT WILL COME ONE SHOT AT ATIME*********************************************


----------



## hotcarhotrods1 (Jun 15, 2005)

ALSO FOR BIG E AND TO EVERY ONE ELSE( RANGE FINDER AND MAKED YARDS )NO BIG DEAL FOR THE PEOPLE THAT NEED THEM DO TO HADICAPS OR AGES ,BUT NOT ON THE SAME DAY AS A STANDERED SHOOT OR NO SPLIT GROUPS SHOOTING TOGETHER(NONE HANDI AND HANDI SHOOTING TOGETHER)GET WHAT IAM SAYING GUYS ,EASY WAY AROUND THE WHOLE PROBLEM AND FUSS JUST SHOOT YOUR CLASS WITH PEOPLE THAT SHOOT THE SAME CLASS. BIG -EEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE ITS BEEN GREAT JUST TO BAD IT TURNED SO PERSONAL ON YOUR PART THAT IS, (FROM THE THINGS I HEARED ABOUT YOUR SHOOTING MAYBE I WILL LEARN SOMETHINGS THAT WILL HELP ME BE A BETTER SHOOTER MYSELF) AND NOT SO FAST TO JUDGE OTHER PEOPLES SHOOTING LIKE YOU HAVE DONETHENKS FOR THE DRIVE AGING>?<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< :wink:


----------



## nub. (Mar 13, 2004)

*Professional 3d Archery Association*

Lets examine this assoc. 

The members:

NAME CITY/STATE BOW STATUS
Amos, Neal Pardeeville, WI AR Semi-Pro
Hayes, Tim Bowtech Semi-Pro
Hon, Darren Reedsburg, WI Bowtech Semi-Pro
Ros, Michael Reedsburg, WI Mathews Pro 

An assoc. of 4 buddies who think they have a better way to play. Just how does one achieve "semi pro" status with you guys? Exactly what "national, international, and local" shoots has their leader participated in? Do you pay Pro entry fees therefore you consider yourself a "pro"?

The P3DAA Standings
SINGLES - MALES

NAME SCORE  AVERAGE BONUS TOTAL PLACE
Ros, Michael 499 249.5 15 264.5 2nd
Amos, Neil 229 229 5 234 3th
Hayes, Tim 501 250.5 15 265.5 1st
Hon, Darren 209 209 10 219 4rd

This must just be some kind of complicated way of betting amongst yourselves eh?

The P3DAA Rules of conduct
RULES OF CONDUCT

1. No unsportsman like conduct will be tolerated. If this association finds out of any unprofessional behavior by any of its members, they will be diqualified for the rest of the year.

2. If any member is caught shooting from any stake other than the longest one provided, they will be diqualified for the year.

3. Rules of conduct will be strictly enforced. Any member disqualified for any reason will also forfeit all membership fees. 

Personally I feel 2, if not 3 of the above members have violated rule #1. How about the rest of the people reading this thread. Do you think Neal, Mike, and perhaps this Hotrod dude, have acted in a profesional and sportsman like manner? Me? I'm ROTFLMFAO  

So what ya think? Want to join? Heres an app.  


PROFESSIONAL 3D ARCHERY ASSOCIATION 



As a member of the Professional 3D Archery Association you will be required to follow all rules and guidelines put forth by the association.

1. Dues are Twenty-five dollars a year. Twenty dollars are put back into a payout purse and five dollars goes for administration fees.

2. There is no class break down outside of a Men's Bracket, Women's bracket and a Team bracket.

3. All shooters will be required to shoot from the furthest stakes provided by the host club.

4. All scores are to be mailed to the association from the club or posted on the club website to be a valid score.

5. The season will run from 1 January to 1 September.

6. All legal archery equipment is allowed.

7. Any member caught shooting from any other stake than the required stake will be disqualified.

8. All disqualified members will forfeit their membership fees.

If you are in agreement to the rules of this association, please fill out the information below and return to the following address: P3DAA, S2496 **** Bluff Rd., Reedsburg, WI 53959.

Welcome to the Professional 3D Archery Association.


___________________________ ___________________________________
Print Name Sign Name




________________________________________________________________
Address





_________________________ _____________________________________
Date Bow


----------



## AKDoug (Aug 27, 2003)

ROTFLMAO- If y'all are shooting mid 250's on 30 targets and call yourselves semi-pros I must be a national champion :wink: Those scores wouldn't finish in the top half of most shoots I have been to at our local clubs for pin shooters and we shoot out to 50 yards in the BHFS and FS classes up here.

Now back to the subject and some comments on the whole 12 ring shot out problem...

I shoot 3 marked yardage 3D events per year up here and about 8 unmarked events. Our marked 3D events are the largest attended in the state (we don't use no orange dots) and one of the shoots uses targets out to 80 yards (FUN!!) My scores on 40 targets of marked average about 10 points higher than my unmarked scores Target wear is not really any different as most shooters usually shoot the same scores, albeit with fewer blanked targets. I only average about 2 more 12's on a marked course then unmarked.

I can hold my own in either venue. There are 4 top competitors in my class, me included, in the state. In the unmarked venue I tend to place higher, in the unmarked one of the other guys who judges distance better will win. You will find 3 out of us 4 at the top of any spot tournament as well. A good shooter is a good shooter... I just need to tighten up my judging.

The secret to getting more people to shoots is simple. Pick a shoot where you DO NOT want to compete and bring along an adult friend new to the sport or a kid along. Help them judge yardage, learn how to fill out the score cards, call arrows and show them the rules of the road on the 3D course. If we all did this once a year imagine how many new guys we would introduce to the sport and get them feeling comfortable. I personally started 3 new people this year.


----------



## rsw (May 22, 2002)

The silly arguments continue. It really doesn't matter what changes are made to our game with regard to who wins. The best shooters win now and they will win if the game changes to something different. Those who have the talent and skill don't suddenly evolve into something else if somebody writes a new rule.

The real issue is to create compatability so all can enjoy the game. If winning is the only way to enjoy, then you simply will have to become better than the current crop of winners. I hit the 12 now and if you tell me the yardage, I will simply hit it more often - do you get the picture?

I guess I must be a traditionalist, but 3D is meant to be unmarked distances and I can see absolutely no reason to change the game. The answer is to create a new game for me to win if you want marked yardages or rangefinders - it just won't change the calculus for the best shooters.

I really don't see any reason to change a good thing - I have seen no logical explanation for marked yardage targets or aiming spots on the animals. It certainly won't grow the audience. Overall, statistice indicate that marked yardage target scores are no different than unmarked - this simply proves it is shooting skills that dictate success moreso than yardage skills!


----------

