# Arrow spin



## GrumpyGuns (Feb 24, 2014)

Haven't seen a video like that but imagine the type of rest makes a difference as well.


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## TheScOuT (May 9, 2011)

OhWell said:


> Has anyone ever seen high speed video that shows how soon after leaving the string an arrow starts spinning ? I am sure there are many factors such as helical vs off set and vanes vs feathers but I was just curious.
> 
> Hey, Here's a wild hair that just hit me...What about a nock that spins so the arrow can spin as the string comes forward..... Just another wild and crazy idea....


There is slanted nocks that increase arrow spin...Turbonock. Many mixed reviews, some have said it is hard on center serving and cause increase wear for marginal if any accuracy improvements. 

http://www.turbonockfactorystore.com/default.asp

Now if you are talking about maybe a free spinning nock in the shaft...like a small bearing type so the arrow starts spinning as soon as momentum forward is applied...that would be cool.


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## OhWell (Aug 21, 2013)

TheScOuT said:


> There is slanted nocks that increase arrow spin...Turbonock. Many mixed reviews, some have said it is hard on center serving and cause increase wear for marginal if any accuracy improvements.
> 
> http://www.turbonockfactorystore.com/default.asp
> 
> Now if you are talking about maybe a free spinning nock in the shaft...like a small bearing type so the arrow starts spinning as soon as momentum forward is applied...that would be cool.


I was referring to the latter, basically just like the old Razorback broad heads.


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## bbjavelina (Jan 30, 2005)

It's easy enough to see how the spin develops. Shoot from 3', 4', ad nauseum. Check the cock fletch at each distance. Chart it out. I think you'll see that the rotation starts slowly and builds with distance. You'll likely not get very far until it becomes confusing, at least if you use more than one arrow.


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## OhWell (Aug 21, 2013)

bbjavelina said:


> It's easy enough to see how the spin develops. Shoot from 3', 4', ad nauseum. Check the cock fletch at each distance. Chart it out. I think you'll see that the rotation starts slowly and builds with distance. You'll likely not get very far until it becomes confusing, at least if you use more than one arrow.


I could see me shooting myself after doing that for a while !!! I was hoping for the answer you gave as I don't have a great deal of clearance between my cables and my vanes. I was actually thinking the same thing.


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## b0w_bender (Apr 30, 2006)

take a look at this


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## turbonockguy (Mar 4, 2013)

I have a major disagreement with this video. The spokesman says that if you increase arrow rotation you lose speed.
That is only true if you increase arrow rotation using only wind resistance. that means increasing the pitch of the fletching or the fletching size. If you rotate the arrow mechanically like with the Turbonock with the blazers you will get a reduction in the bending the arrow does as well flatter trajectory. And can actually fly broadheads with the mini blazers.


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## Strodav (Apr 25, 2012)

bbjavelina said:


> It's easy enough to see how the spin develops. Shoot from 3', 4', ad nauseum. Check the cock fletch at each distance. Chart it out. I think you'll see that the rotation starts slowly and builds with distance. You'll likely not get very far until it becomes confusing, at least if you use more than one arrow.


This actually works. I tried it with my indoor arrows (Fatboys) with helical fletch leaving the bow at about 270fps. Turns out the first full rotation happened at about 7 yds, way longer than I thought. Found an article that confirmed that most arrows only rotate 1/2 dozen times in 20 yds. Of course, they were selling fletches designed to spin up as quickly as possible. Honestly, not sure how important spin is to stable flight, but I'm sure it doesn't hurt.


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## bbjavelina (Jan 30, 2005)

Strodav said:


> This actually works. I tried it with my indoor arrows (Fatboys) with helical fletch leaving the bow at about 270fps. Turns out the first full rotation happened at about 7 yds, way longer than I thought. Found an article that confirmed that most arrows only rotate 1/2 dozen times in 20 yds. Of course, they were selling fletches designed to spin up as quickly as possible. Honestly, not sure how important spin is to stable flight, but I'm sure it doesn't hurt.


Gotta have some. Too much is not good. Where do you draw the line? Maybe depends on the heads you're using and the venue?


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## turbonockguy (Mar 4, 2013)

Another claim from the video is that the Blazer arrow starts to spin 3 ft after leaving the bow. and that is TRUE!
Where do bullets start spinning ? 
I am scheduling a Slomotion video to be shot in a few days. that will show a blazer equipped arrow with my t-4 nock . Which starts the arrow spinning as it leaves the bowstring!!
I will post it here as soon as it is finished.


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## OhWell (Aug 21, 2013)

turbonockguy said:


> Another claim from the video is that the Blazer arrow starts to spin 3 ft after leaving the bow. and that is TRUE!
> Where do bullets start spinning ?
> I am scheduling a Slomotion video to be shot in a few days. that will show a blazer equipped arrow with my t-4 nock . Which starts the arrow spinning as it leaves the bowstring!!
> I will post it here as soon as it is finished.


This is interesting because it is something I was thinking about the other day and was mentioned above. Would a nock that could spin freely help the spin as well. Redoing my center serving would not be a deal breaker for me if I could get even more consistency (accuracy comes from us) but I was wondering if the added torque from the spin you are getting puts more wear on the center serving. Like I said not necessarily a deal breaker but curious. This would be a huge benefit for the super fast bows guys like to shoo these days. High speeds and fixed blades can be an issue and this might just be a cure.

Cool stuff


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## TheScOuT (May 9, 2011)

Watching the video and reading the posts on here I started to wonder...is a lot of arrow spin needed? Does the arrow need to spin as soon as it leaves the string? I know several people that shoot straight fletching with zero issues. Some of them are actually very accurate! 

I shoot Grizz Trick 2 heads which are a large fixed blade head, Blazer vanes with 3 degree helical at 309 feet per second. I practice out to 60 yards frequently....my bow shoots and arrows fly as perfect as I can shoot. The only limitation is myself...if I am shooting good that day my arrows are stacked dead on at that distance. Some days not quite so good but not bad in general. I am not sure if extra arrow spin would do anything as far as accuracy for 99% of archers.


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## Vortex69 (Jul 8, 2007)

TheScOuT said:


> ...is a lot of arrow spin needed? Does the arrow need to spin as soon as it leaves the string? I know several people that shoot straight fletching with zero issues. Some of them are actually very accurate!


[...alot of arrow spin?].... Not necessary unless there is a bow/shooter issue.

[instantly spin].... I like the idea but, what if you are close to having clearance issues and, like mentioned above, are there any wear penalties?


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## OhWell (Aug 21, 2013)

Vortex69 said:


> [...alot of arrow spin?].... Not necessary unless there is a bow/shooter issue.
> 
> [instantly spin].... I like the idea but, what if you are close to having clearance issues and, like mentioned above, are there any wear penalties?


Exactly, I am shooting a 4-vane X-wing with the wings on the vertical to give me more clearance. I don't like the word accuracy because that is all us but consistency is something different. I tend to believe that more spin would help with consistency. It should help with less than ideal shots or in a cross wind. This just occurred to me, a high spin rate on poorly balanced arrow could be an issue.

This is getting way beyond my knowledge of physics when we really start looking at all the factors. There are way tooo man "If's" in here to come to any dogmatic answers. I guess I am back to the tried and true principle, it shoots well for YOU stay with it.

Our next Rabbit Hole discussion could be "Would 6 Micro Blazers work as well as 3 full size Blazers" Then we can move on to my set-up which is 4 Mini Blazers in the X-wing pattern......


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## bbjavelina (Jan 30, 2005)

OhWell said:


> Exactly, I am shooting a 4-vane X-wing with the wings on the vertical to give me more clearance. I don't like the word accuracy because that is all us but consistency is something different. I tend to believe that more spin would help with consistency. It should help with less than ideal shots or in a cross wind. This just occurred to me, a high spin rate on poorly balanced arrow could be an issue.
> 
> This is getting way beyond my knowledge of physics when we really start looking at all the factors. There are way tooo man "If's" in here to come to any dogmatic answers. I guess I am back to the tried and true principle, it shoots well for YOU stay with it.
> 
> Our next Rabbit Hole discussion could be "Would 6 Micro Blazers work as well as 3 full size Blazers" Then we can move on to my set-up which is 4 Mini Blazers in the X-wing pattern......


That gets us back where we've always been. It seems to me that the only way to decide is to shoot it yourself and see what works for you. For me, that's a problem. Maybe if I could shoot a bit better the decisions would be easier. However, at my level of ability, it easy to be satisfied with most anything.


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## turbonockguy (Mar 4, 2013)

Vortex69 said:


> [...alot of arrow spin?].... Not necessary unless there is a bow/shooter issue.
> 
> [instantly spin].... I like the idea but, what if you are close to having clearance issues and, like mentioned above, are there any wear penalties?


I lube my center serving often and do not see any wear issues. I do use BCY halo.
I have had some complaints over the years from some shooters having excessive wear with my Turbonocks.
Most do not.

A few years ago I actually had a 3 year marketing deal with Bohning to market my Turbonocks.
They did some testing and found the nock improved the performance of the Blazers, to the point that they put them in their catalog.

For some reason the sales generated by them during the first year with them was an 80 % decrease less than what my wife and I sold the previous year just marketing the product ourselves. So I ended the marketing agreement with them.


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## bbjavelina (Jan 30, 2005)

I've used the Turbonocks and saw positive results. 

The only reason I didn't go with them at the time was that I have, literally, thousands of left wing feathers. Since then I have become to prefer bushings and G nocks. 

My limited testing shows that they do work.


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## Strodav (Apr 25, 2012)

turbonockguy said:


> Another claim from the video is that the Blazer arrow starts to spin 3 ft after leaving the bow. and that is TRUE!
> Where do bullets start spinning ?
> I am scheduling a Slomotion video to be shot in a few days. that will show a blazer equipped arrow with my t-4 nock . Which starts the arrow spinning as it leaves the bowstring!!
> I will post it here as soon as it is finished.


Bullets start spinning in the barrel as a modern gun barrels are rifled. Arrows start spinning as they leave the bowstring due to the aerodynamic forces on offset or helical vanes.


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## swbuckmaster (Dec 20, 2005)

Spin is over stated and can actually jack your groups up when using broadheads. Spin will cause broadheads to grab air like a base ball grabs air in a curve ball. The larger the blades and the faster you spin the arrow the worse the curve gets. Not good! 

Spin is fine for target arrows to a point but most arrow spin is induced by drag. I dont know about you but drag is something I try and avoid when it comes to my arrows.

If people would line up the dynamic spine of their arrow they can use very little arrow spin to stabalizer an arrow and get fantastic results. All of which can be proven on a hooter shooter.


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## bbjavelina (Jan 30, 2005)

swbuckmaster said:


> Spin is over stated and can actually jack your groups up when using broadheads. Spin will cause broadheads to grab air like a base ball grabs air in a curve ball. The larger the blades and the faster you spin the arrow the worse the curve gets. Not good!
> 
> Spin is fine for target arrows to a point but most arrow spin is induced by drag. I dont know about you but drag is something I try and avoid when it comes to my arrows.
> 
> If people would line up the dynamic spine of their arrow they can use very little arrow spin to stabalizer an arrow and get fantastic results. All of which can be proven on a hooter shooter.


Very good point on the dynamic spine. That's something I've been working on in the last few months. I've come to believe that's one thing that does help my poor shooting. 

I've recently been working on getting a dozen arrows ready to go to Africa in July. I got them all lined out as of yesterday. I may not shot very well, but I'm confidant that all my arrows fly well with my broadheads. And hit with my fieldpoints.

If I wasn't retired, I don't think I'd be able to hunt.


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## swbuckmaster (Dec 20, 2005)

Firenock and his spin vanes have also proven too much spin effects broadhead flight negatively


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## bbjavelina (Jan 30, 2005)

swbuckmaster said:


> Firenock and his spin vanes have also proven too much spin effects broadhead flight


Not intending to argue, but given my limited experience, I'd like to know more about that if you have the time.


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## swbuckmaster (Dec 20, 2005)

Pm sent


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## Vortex69 (Jul 8, 2007)

This past winter, and for grins, I shot an indoor 3D with bare shafts and did OK. I know that my set-up is good enough that I don't need to have my arrow spinning instantly, however, that product just may help some others.

Even though that product is not for me, I have a deep respect for anyone who is thinking outside the box and coming up with all these interesting ideas. Some are great and some, not so much, regardless, they can all act as a base from which other ideas are spawned and, IMO, that's a good thing.


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## turbonockguy (Mar 4, 2013)

bbjavelina said:


> Very good point on the dynamic spine. That's something I've been working on in the last few months. I've come to believe that's one thing that does help my poor shooting.
> 
> I've recently been working on getting a dozen arrows ready to go to Africa in July. I got them all lined out as of yesterday. I may not shot very well, but I'm confidant that all my arrows fly well with my broadheads. And hit with my fieldpoints.
> 
> ...


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## turbonockguy (Mar 4, 2013)

swbuckmaster said:


> Spin is over stated and can actually jack your groups up when using broadheads. Spin will cause broadheads to grab air like a base ball grabs air in a curve ball. The larger the blades and the faster you spin the arrow the worse the curve gets. Not good!
> 
> Spin is fine for target arrows to a point but most arrow spin is induced by drag. I dont know about you but drag is something I try and avoid when it comes to my arrows.
> 
> ...



I have found the opposite to be true.
I get tighter groups with broadheads using the Turbonocks with them.
Broadheads will not curve like a ball does.
When a broadhead rotates whether it is a two three or four blade . the blades are set in a symmetrical arrangement on the broadhead so there is always equal opposing pressure when they rotate.
For simplicity think about a two blade broadhead . when the blade on top is rotating right, the opposing bottom blade is going left. it should fly straight. 
a slow spinning broadhead will tend to plane or fly and go off course. increase the rpms and that does not happen.


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## swbuckmaster (Dec 20, 2005)

turbonockguy said:


> I have found the opposite to be true.
> I get tighter groups with broadheads using the Turbonocks with them.
> Broadheads will not curve like a ball does.
> When a broadhead rotates whether it is a two three or four blade . the blades are set in a symmetrical arrangement on the broadhead so there is always equal opposing pressure when they rotate.
> ...



I also coppied this from one of georges "firenock" posts a few months back concerning his high speed spining vanes. Ive seen a few more posts hes made but im not going to try and look them up. By the way georges product spin faster then yours do! His drop less and are quieter then yours! If they were cheeper id have no problem shooting them on my target arrows. I wont shoot them on my hunting arrows though until the problems have been fixed with broad head flight. 

"Aerovane III are not yet good hunting vanes as they spin way too fast for nearly every broadhead out there except the Hartcraft Trophy 1 and Smoke RamCat. When more broadhead come out to address the high spin rate of Aerovane, that can changed dramatically very fast."

"How about expandable with the IIIs? I'm Shooting 290
Most expandable have front blunt paddles and they usually drop like a rock with Aerovane III. Case in point, with a 305 fps bow, assuming the field point is hitting the center; the split fire max will drop about 6" and jack hammer will be about the same; With 3 blade rage off to the left and down by about 5". I just do not think most expandable will work as long as it has a cross section that is actually over 3/4" with the blade closed or have any frontal extruding parts! In some cases, due to high centrifugal force, the blades got deployed in mid air and you can image the rest. To be frank, from experience last year using AV2, many customer had bend or snap off blade on impact on most broadhead target even on AV2 at 60 yard when shot out of 350fps+ crossbows on many mechanical heads."

So I take his comments as a high speed spinning vane inventor as well with my own experience and say line up your dynamic spine with all your arrows. They will shoot better with field tips and they will shoot better with broad heads. Lining up your dynamic spine can be proven and tested with a hooter shooter to increase your accuracy. Its the best way to get one hole accuracy at distance with multiple arrows! An arrow is not a bullet! It has fins for stabilizing true flight. The only reason you use spin is to cause the arrow to quit flexing or parallaxing in flight. This early spin causes the arrow to deviate less in the beginning of flight and increases your accuracy. It however induces drag. If you have lined up your dynamic spine all your arrows will come out of your bow flexing the same way from the beginning and you need less spin/band-aid effect to correct for the deviation. less needed spin will mean smaller vanes, increased velocities and less drag/noise.


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## turbonockguy (Mar 4, 2013)

You should try My T-4 nock with his vanes.
The problem with his vanes is you have to fly them with basically 0 degrees offset. His airfoil basically only works that way.
If you fletch those vanes with offset. The bottom of his vane is concave and acts just like cupping your hand in the wind. 
and greatly increases drag. 
If you kick his fletching up to high rpms. and fly them with broadheads that have less surface area than the vanes they will work well.
The problem is there are very few broadheads smaller than his vanes.

It is not the speed of the rotation of the broadhead .It is that his vanes are too small.

I had the same problem when I designed the first Turbonock. the Deadx had .8 square inch of vane area. it would stabilize mechanicals, but not fixed blades. I then designed the Hunter with 1.6 square inch of vane and it handled fixed blade broadheads.
Increased rpms does not create increased drag, if the vanes are set,or tuned for the high rpms.

Modern prop driven aircraft have variable pitch propellers .They used one pitch setting to accelerate at takeoff then change the pitch setting to fly efficiently at high speed.You can not change the pitch of your fletching, but the twisted nock does the same thing.
My Turbonocks are set to fly efficiently at high speed. and the twist in the nock instantly boosts the rpms to that speed. where they fly efficiently. 
A high rpm arrow and a bullet have more in common than you think.










This was the first animal taken with Turbonocks. The broadhead was an old spitfire mechanical. 70 lb pse. Have had no complaints in 14 years on any mechanicals opening.


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## bbjavelina (Jan 30, 2005)

turbonockguy said:


> bbjavelina said:
> 
> 
> > Very good point on the dynamic spine. That's something I've been working on in the last few months. I've come to believe that's one thing that does help my poor shooting.
> ...


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## turbonockguy (Mar 4, 2013)

Sorry ! I posted this attached to the wrong quote!! perhaps I should spin my head a little faster to get it to work better?


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## zestycj7 (Sep 24, 2010)

I guess I was the only person to notice in the video that was posted...
When the guy shot at the ballistic gel, if you watch real close, the green index fletch doesn't rotate buy the time the broadhead hits the gel.
Also in all the shots the shaft is rotating clockwise, once the shaft enters the ballistic gel the rotation stops and the shaft spins counter clockwise on exiting the gel.
Thoughts on why this would and does happen?
Don.


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## turbonockguy (Mar 4, 2013)

zestycj7 said:


> I guess I was the only person to notice in the video that was posted...
> When the guy shot at the ballistic gel, if you watch real close, the green index fletch doesn't rotate buy the time the broadhead hits the gel.
> Also in all the shots the shaft is rotating clockwise, once the shaft enters the ballistic gel the rotation stops and the shaft spins counter clockwise on exiting the gel.
> Thoughts on why this would and does happen?
> ...


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## bbjavelina (Jan 30, 2005)

zestycj7 said:


> I guess I was the only person to notice in the video that was posted...
> When the guy shot at the ballistic gel, if you watch real close, the green index fletch doesn't rotate buy the time the broadhead hits the gel.
> Also in all the shots the shaft is rotating clockwise, once the shaft enters the ballistic gel the rotation stops and the shaft spins counter clockwise on exiting the gel.
> Thoughts on why this would and does happen?
> Don.


I believe that the stoppage of rotation has to do with the broadhead. Most heads are double bevel and don't impart any rotation. Lots of folks use single bevel heads (either left or right to match the fletch (or nock) design). It seems that this aids in rotation after contact with flesh. 

Lots of folks think this is an advantage. 

Best of luck to you.


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## 4 Fletch (Jan 25, 2014)

swbuckmaster said:


> Spin is over stated and can actually jack your groups up when using broadheads. Spin will cause broadheads to grab air like a base ball grabs air in a curve ball. The larger the blades and the faster you spin the arrow the worse the curve gets. Not good!


I have been told this, and that's why it's better to use mechanicals with fast compound bows. FWIW my NAP Spitfires fly exactly as field points. 



> If people would line up the dynamic spine of their arrow they can use very little arrow spin to stabalizer an arrow and get fantastic results. All of which can be proven on a hooter shooter.


*How does one line up the dynamic spine of their arrow?*



zestycj7 said:


> I guess I was the only person to notice in the video that was posted...
> When the guy shot at the ballistic gel, if you watch real close, the green index fletch doesn't rotate buy the time the broadhead hits the gel.
> Also in all the shots the shaft is rotating clockwise, once the shaft enters the ballistic gel the rotation stops and the shaft spins counter clockwise on exiting the gel.*
> Thoughts on why this would and does happen?*
> Don.


I remember reading when ballistic gelatin was invented in the mid 1980s, scientists were shocked to learn how a boat tail hunting bullet that was moving forward and spinning, suddenly began tumbling end over end after entering gelatin. Nobody expected that. 

Simple -- not intended here as smartass -- answer, drilled into my head by college physics prof... Newton's First Law of Motion: an object at rest or in motion remains at rest or in motion unless acted upon by an outside force. (Can't tell you what i did yesterday without looking at my datebook, yet can recite those three laws in my sleep.)


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## swbuckmaster (Dec 20, 2005)

*How does one line up the dynamic spine of their arrow?*

Its different than static spine and the arrow needs to be shot! No fancy spine machine's can dial them in better then being shot because there are too many variables. 

You use a hooter shooter "that's what its made for", shoot one arrow at 40 yards. You then get another arrow and if it doesnt hit the same hole twist the nock to the next vane till it will hit the same hole or very close to it. You will see it impact different.

Or the cheap but effective fast way is to shoot one arrow bare shaft through paper @4-5 yards and get it to bullet hole. Shoot the next one and if it wont bullet hole twist nock until it does. Repeat! If all your arrows arent flexing the same way coming out of your bow they wont hit the same hole at distance with any twisty vane unless you do this. 

This method works better than fancy spinning vanes. Dont get me wrong you do need spin but spin causes drag. Drag opens up groups at distance and causes loss of kenetic energy and arrow drop. 

If your a back east tree stand hunter none of this will apply but if your looking to extend your range on targets or out west hunting it works. I guess for me nothing works better than having a higher foc with as small a vane as I can get away with. Field tested with broad heads attached allows me to have have my fixed blade broadheads impact with my field tips out to at least 80 yards. Which is way further than what id shoot game with.

I could also care less if my broad head keeps spinning after it goes through an animal. Unless your blades have a bevel they wont. Your arrows twist rate and arrow weight is less than the static forces applied when it impacts an animal. Another thing id rather have my vanes flex when it hits game and punch through than have a big heavy stiff plastic vane stop it.


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## 4 Fletch (Jan 25, 2014)

swbuckmaster said:


> *How does one line up the dynamic spine of their arrow?*
> 
> Its different than static spine and the arrow needs to be shot! No fancy spine machine's can dial them in better then being shot because there are too many variables.
> 
> You use a hooter shooter "that's what its made for", shoot one arrow at 40 yards. You then get another arrow and if it doesnt hit the same hole twist the nock to the next vane till it will hit the same hole or very close to it. You will see it impact different.


Twisting the nock... on my compound i use three vanes. On my longbow and recurve four feathers. 

Ah, more to learn... 



> Or the cheap but effective fast way is to shoot one arrow bare shaft through paper @4-5 yards and get it to bullet hole. Shoot the next one and if it wont bullet hole twist nock until it does. Repeat! If all your arrows arent flexing the same way coming out of your bow they wont hit the same hole at distance with any twisty vane unless you do this.


Paper tuning? Ah, more to learn... 



> This method works better than fancy spinning vanes. Dont get me wrong you do need spin but spin causes drag. Drag opens up groups at distance and causes loss of kenetic energy and arrow drop.


Which brings another question about straight fletching w four feathers, perhaps deserving its own thread. 



> If your a back east tree stand hunter


nope; afraid of heights



> none of this will apply but if your *looking to extend your range on targets*


Yup, always



> or out west hunting it works. I guess for me nothing works better than having a higher foc with *as small a vane* as I can get away with.


Agreed, which is why i like 2.5-inch parabolic feathers for my trad bows, and am considering them for my compound. 



> Field tested with broad heads attached allows me to have have my fixed blade broadheads impact with my field tips out to at least 80 yards. Which is way further than what id shoot game with.
> 
> I could also care less if my broad head keeps spinning after it goes through an animal. Unless your blades have a bevel they wont. Your arrows twist rate and arrow weight is less than the static forces applied when it impacts an animal. Another thing id rather have my vanes flex when it hits game and punch through than have a big heavy stiff plastic vane stop it.


Thanx for providing so much info, and so quickly.


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## turbonockguy (Mar 4, 2013)

This method works better than fancy spinning vanes. Dont get me wrong you do need spin but spin causes drag. Drag opens up groups at distance and causes loss of kenetic energy and arrow drop.

This is a quote from the previous post.
Spin does not cause drag. Trying to increase spin by using larger fletching or more offset. or more helical increases drag. 

Virtually all arrows stabilize the arrow by using some degree of offset or helical. This works but you pay a price. 
Wind resistance is determined by two things. the shape of an object and the size of an object.
The faster you spin an arrow by either changing the offset or by increasing the size of the fletching will cause more drag and loss of energy downrange.

The Turbonock adds another factor into the equation. It spins the arrow instantly using a twisted nock. Since the arrow is now spinning you only need enough vane to keep it spinning. so you can fly a high rpm arrow with smaller vanes and get tighter groups without increasing drag.

Our original deadX








you can see in this photo has four very small vanes totaling only .8 square inch of vane area. Randy Oitker who is the archer on the Outdoor Channel's Impossible Shots. Broke a balloon in a crosswind at 250 yds. He tried the shot with regular fletching and could not do it. The small vanes spinning at high rpms maintained the trajectory better than the conventional fletching.
Spinning an arrow at high rpms if done properly improves accuracy for the same reason that spinning bullets improves accduracy.
Here is a bareshaft shot that can only be done with Turbonocks. Randy has tried with other nocks with no sucdess.


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## turbonockguy (Mar 4, 2013)

Here is another bareshaft video using the t-4 nock.
How can the bareshaft turbonock do what fletched arrows can not do?

And again check this out. look ! Think!


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## turbonockguy (Mar 4, 2013)

OhWell said:


> Exactly, I am shooting a 4-vane X-wing with the wings on the vertical to give me more clearance. I don't like the word accuracy because that is all us but consistency is something different. I tend to believe that more spin would help with consistency. It should help with less than ideal shots or in a cross wind. This just occurred to me, a high spin rate on poorly balanced arrow could be an issue.
> 
> This is getting way beyond my knowledge of physics when we really start looking at all the factors. There are way tooo man "If's" in here to come to any dogmatic answers. I guess I am back to the tried and true principle, it shoots well for YOU stay with it.
> 
> Our next Rabbit Hole discussion could be "Would 6 Micro Blazers work as well as 3 full size Blazers" Then we can move on to my set-up which is 4 Mini Blazers in the X-wing pattern......


I can shoot muzzys with 4 mini blazers and a turbonock t-4


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## turbonockguy (Mar 4, 2013)

OhWell said:


> Exactly, I am shooting a 4-vane X-wing with the wings on the vertical to give me more clearance. I don't like the word accuracy because that is all us but consistency is something different. I tend to believe that more spin would help with consistency. It should help with less than ideal shots or in a cross wind. This just occurred to me, a high spin rate on poorly balanced arrow could be an issue.
> 
> This is getting way beyond my knowledge of physics when we really start looking at all the factors. There are way tooo man "If's" in here to come to any dogmatic answers. I guess I am back to the tried and true principle, it shoots well for YOU stay with it.
> 
> Our next Rabbit Hole discussion could be "Would 6 Micro Blazers work as well as 3 full size Blazers" Then we can move on to my set-up which is 4 Mini Blazers in the X-wing pattern......


I can shoot muzzys with 4 mini blazers.


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## turbonockguy (Mar 4, 2013)

One person commented here basically stated that broadheads stop spinning as soon as they hit the deer . 

The deer in this video was hit with a 4 blade muzzy with a Turbonock T-4. the high rpm blade made a profound entrance wound. and when the animal was dressed showed the rotational damage into the second lung.
A 6000rpm arrow traveling at 260fps can not stop spinning instantly!
It is called the law of inertia.

when you hit the brakes on your car at 80 mph, no matter how hard you hit the brakes. The car does not stop instantly


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## turbonockguy (Mar 4, 2013)

This is still my favorite video. This was the first time I got to see Randy shoot my nocks in person.

There are four arrows on his rest. Only one of them can be in tune. yet they fly consistently.
He has tried this shot with regular nocks. and the shot is not repeatable. 

the spinning improves the shot.
Randy is now shooting seven arrows bareshaft in his demonstrations .


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## ctownshooter (Jun 6, 2013)

subscribed


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## bbjavelina (Jan 30, 2005)

4 Fletch said:


> I have been told this, and that's why it's better to use mechanicals with fast compound bows. FWIW my NAP Spitfires fly exactly as field points.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## bbjavelina (Jan 30, 2005)

turbonockguy said:


> One person commented here basically stated that broadheads stop spinning as soon as they hit the deer .
> 
> The deer in this video was hit with a 4 blade muzzy with a Turbonock T-4. the high rpm blade made a profound entrance wound. and when the animal was dressed showed the rotational damage into the second lung.
> A 6000rpm arrow traveling at 260fps can not stop spinning instantly!It is called the law of inertia.
> ...


I have refrained from refuting you up to this point -- no more!

A 6,000 rpm arrow? Are you serious? Do you understand grade school algebra?

With a statement about a 6,000 rpm arrow, you need to go crawl back under whatever rock you hatched from.

If I'm a bit off base here, could you please provide some support for your statement?

Yeah, some rifle bullets will do that. Not any arrow shot from a hand drawn bow. 

I wish you well in your venture. Please don't spread mis-truths.


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## turbonockguy (Mar 4, 2013)

bbjavelina said:


> I have refrained from refuting you up to this point -- no more!
> 
> 
> A 6,000 rpm arrow? Are you serious? Do you understand grade school algebra?
> ...



I am not very good at math. but with the help of a calculator and some averaging here are some numbers for you.

PSE Tested My product and did High Speed Video.. The video showed the arrow Rotating 2 times in the first five feet of flight.

Lets say that arrow was moving at 300 feet per second. 
Just to get a ball park number. lets say that arrow could maintain that speed for one minute. It would travel 18,000 feet.
The Turbonock is spinning two times every five feet. That comes to 7200 rotations in one minute.

Now figuring that an arrow does lose some speed as soon as it leaves the bow and continues to lose speed in a predictable rate.
I would estimate that in the distance range that archers shoot, and the speeds of bows ranging from the mid 200 fps to 360 fps.
A 6000 rpm number is pretty accurate. 
Depending on your initial bow speed your actual rpms delivered by the Turbonock could be between 4000 and 8000 rpms.

PSE would not release the video. I do not know why.

Tomorrow I am traveling to NY and will be shooting high speed video of my products. At Alan Teitel's Studio. so I will finally have quality video to show what the product does. I am going to do one shot in front of a long wall with a one inch grid line so I will be able to calculate the actual rotation and speed of the arrow.
We will also be shooting the product through ballistic Gel to see what happens with broadheads. I will be shooting a 4 blade muzzy and an two blade Badger.

(Alan Teitel is an Emmy Award winning Videographer and has a website - www.ultraslo.com check it out )
We are also going to shoot some water balloons for fun.


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## bbjavelina (Jan 30, 2005)

turbonockguy said:


> I am not very good at math. but with the help of a calculator and some averaging here are some numbers for you.
> 
> PSE Tested My product and did High Speed Video.. The video showed the arrow Rotating 2 times in the first five feet of flight.
> 
> ...


I'm looking forward to seeing the video.


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## Huntinsker (Feb 9, 2012)

OhWell said:


> Has anyone ever seen high speed video that shows how soon after leaving the string an arrow starts spinning ? I am sure there are many factors such as helical vs off set and vanes vs feathers but I was just curious.
> 
> Hey, Here's a wild hair that just hit me...*What about a nock that spins so the arrow can spin as the string comes forward..... Just another wild and crazy idea*....


That's been done. It worked by using a spring and you "cocked" the nock so that as soon as pressure was applied from the string moving forward, the spring would release and the arrow would begin to rotate. It's called the Twister Nock. Widgeon used it in a fletching review on Archery Report. You can see it here. http://archeryreport.com/2009/10/fletching-review-speed-drop/

Here's a video of how the nock functions. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s3igGilMgEI


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## turbonockguy (Mar 4, 2013)

Huntinsker said:


> That's been done. It worked by using a spring and you "cocked" the nock so that as soon as pressure was applied from the string moving forward, the spring would release and the arrow would begin to rotate. It's called the Twister Nock. Widgeon used it in a fletching review on Archery Report. You can see it here. http://archeryreport.com/2009/10/fletching-review-speed-drop/
> 
> Here's a video of how the nock functions. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s3igGilMgEI


Biggest concern with that product is the spring. and the moving parts on the back of the arrow.
Not much space for strength of product. and as the arrow is shot over time the spring will weaken giving variations in the rotation.
I know the company had initial problems with the quality of the springs being used. Perhaps that is solved.
Bottom line to improve accuracy you reduce variables. This nock would seem to increase variables.

My Turbonock will produce the same rotation every shot for the life of the nock.

If you check threads about this product on Archery Talk you will find some interesting history.
The Owner of that company and I got into some disagreements . not as much on the products differences but on ethics.


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## turbonockguy (Mar 4, 2013)

Here is the first slo mo video of my products.
This is the fun shot. Turbonock Stealth on the back and a Badger broadhead on the front.
There are two more technical videos we shot and as soon as they are processed I will post them.
They show in measurable detail what my nocks do.


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## Smoknnca (Sep 13, 2011)

OhWell said:


> Has anyone ever seen high speed video that shows how soon after leaving the string an arrow starts spinning ? I am sure there are many factors such as helical vs off set and vanes vs feathers but I was just curious.
> 
> Hey, Here's a wild hair that just hit me...What about a nock that spins so the arrow can spin as the string comes forward..... Just another wild and crazy idea....


Already been invented and posted in slo mo- called a Turbo nock


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## OhWell (Aug 21, 2013)

Smoknnca said:


> Already been invented and posted in slo mo- called a Turbo nock


UH, NO it hasn't and man are you late to the party. We have been discussing a nock that did not create spin but could spin !! A turbo nock CANNOT spin the arrow until the arrow leaves the string. WOW, do people read before they post?


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## Huntinsker (Feb 9, 2012)

OhWell said:


> UH, NO it hasn't and man are you late to the party. We have been discussing a nock that did not create spin but could spin !! A turbo nock CANNOT spin the arrow until the arrow leaves the string. WOW, do people read before they post?


Actually it has been invented but it's not the turbonock. One that spins the arrow while on the string is called the Twister Nock and you can see a video of how it work in my post on page 2. towards the bottom.


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## turbonockguy (Mar 4, 2013)

Here is the second video we shot. Pretty self explanatory.The T-4 nock has the same twist as the Vortex and the Stealth.
I decided to show the rotation with a traditional bow basically because I have had a lot of interest from trad shooters. and I have also been doing a lot of trad shooting myself. The other turbos give the same spin rate of a compound bow.

The T-4 rotated just a hair shy of 2 revolutions in the five ft of flight shown. The rotation was reduced at the end as a result of hitting the target. If you look carefully you can see it rotated 45 Degrees from the bowstring to the riser.
The same arrow with a straight nock took all five feet of flight to rotate 45 degrees.


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## swbuckmaster (Dec 20, 2005)

The real test that would make me a believer in your product is shooting arrows with your nocks out a hooter shooter. If they all hit the same hole at 30-40 yards indoors without rotating your nocks then you will have a product worth buying.


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## turbonockguy (Mar 4, 2013)

swbuckmaster said:


> The real test that would make me a believer in your product is shooting arrows with your nocks out a hooter shooter. If they all hit the same hole at 30-40 yards indoors without rotating your nocks then you will have a product worth buying.


I did all my early testing with a shooting machine I made and no one would accept the results, because I made the machine. then I got a hooter shooter and did testing and got the same results. but it seems that was not enough. Pse did high speed video 12 years ago and gave me the results, but would not release the video and basically no one would believe what my product does.

I finally repeated the High Speed video test that PSE DId and am showing the results.
There is little more I can do except make this offer that I have been making for some time now.

Buy them. Try them. If you do not like them , send them back.
That is the only real way that you will convince yourself that they work.


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## turbonockguy (Mar 4, 2013)

If you want to slow these videos down even more! just click on the gear shaped icon on the bottom right of the you tube viewer and it will put you into settings where you can slow down even more. .25 is the slowest. YOu can also speed it up.


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## turbonockguy (Mar 4, 2013)

http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=2254505

Here is a link to a new thread I started that shows the Turbonock going through gel as well as a video from another company showing an arrow with conventional fletch going through gel.


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## Revvv (Mar 23, 2014)

turbonockguy said:


> Another claim from the video is that the Blazer arrow starts to spin 3 ft after leaving the bow. and that is TRUE!
> Where do bullets start spinning ?


A bullet begins to spin as soon as it makes its way into the rifling of the barrel. 

Where things become tricky for me with arrow spin is how the correct spin is calculated. The spin of a bullet, gun rifling / twists per inch are not all the same. Bullet weight, velocity, and barrel length all have a lot to do with how much rifling is needed for the proper bullet rotation. I would imagine that an arrow's rate of spin would be affected by the bow's poundage, draw length, arrow weight, and vane selection. 

It seems as if I have a bit to learn.

I also wonder how much negative impact a fixed blade broadhead poses on the rotation of a helical vaned arrow.


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## SpinNock (Oct 19, 2015)

Go to spinnock.com and see slow motion videos of a standard nock and a SpinNock.


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## swbuckmaster (Dec 20, 2005)

Smoke and mirrors!

Just think if you stuck a spinner nock with an aero vane you could spine it even faster. Or maybe you could properly tune your bow in the first place.

I love how your video compairs a poorly tuned bow shooting plain nock next to a tunned bow shooting a spinner and claims magic. I don't care what you say or claim that arrow isn't going to fly more true while it's attached to the string. "Tail wag the dog" While it's attached to the string the bow will dictate where and how the arrow flies. 

It's all in the tune guys.


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## SpinNock (Oct 19, 2015)

I used the same bow with no changes from the standard nock and SpinNock. The bow was professionally tuned by a pro shop. So I don't know how you could claim that you seem to know that I used a poorly tuned bow and a tuned bow. The fact that, unless you straight fletch your arrows, the fletching will cause string torque and result in back spin as the slow motion video proves. 

An arrow traveling at 300 fps is the same as 205 mph. At these speeds significant drag will slow an arrow down if it is spinning backwards. And just like a bullet before rifling was invented, accuracy is effected if an arrow spins backwards then has to correct itself in mid flight.

Yes you do have to have a tuned bow, but your arrows also need to be tuned. This includes spin testing your arrows to make sure they spin true without any wobble, fletching your arrows with quality fletching such as Extreme Vanes from Flex Fletch, and use a quality fletching jig. SpinNock improves the flight characteristics resulting in better speed and accuracy.


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## swbuckmaster (Dec 20, 2005)

being honest "could be camera angle" but what your video shows me is the regular arrow leaving the bow nock left of the point "left tear." The spinney vane shows the nock in line with the point "bullet hole." To me that shows tune issues, form inconstancy's or dynamic spine issues between the two arrows in the video. Its not uncommon to see two different arrows tearing different if you haven't nock tuned the dynamic spine so they both bullet hole. 

Do you have anyone on your pro staff shooting in outdoor fita or any other style? 

Being a complete critic of spinney products including turbo nocks, aero vanes, spin wings, spin nocks and fob's the aero vanes shows the most promise. If they weren't so expensive id try them out. As it is arrow vanes and nocks are highly expendable so the cheaper less moving parts to fail the better.


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## SpinNock (Oct 19, 2015)

I believe what your are referring to is the fact that a 3 vane fletched arrow will always have more pressure on one side of the arrow than the other side as the arrow is being pushed because there is not the same amount of vanes symmetrically on either side of the bow string. This problem can be somewhat eliminated by turning the nock on all of your arrows so that all of the vanes on all of your arrows are in the same place on both sides of the bow string. Then tune your bow and site it in. 

I was not trying to eliminate this problem with SpinNock, but rather the problem of string torque and back spin.


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## SpinNock (Oct 19, 2015)

The reason SpinNocks are so expensive, is because they are made on a Swiss CNC lathe. The lathe cost $200,000, plus tooling, programming, and maintenence. I will have to sell a lot of SpinNocks to make back these costs, even at the current price. I chose to make SpinNocks on a Swiss CNC lathe because they are the most accurate at milling material, accurate to 1/10,000 of an inch. I felt it was necessary in order to make the best possible product.


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## SpinNock (Oct 19, 2015)

If anyone would like to see slow motion of what a Twister Nock really does, go to youtube and search for it. Be sure to view the video with the camera directly behind the arrow.


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## swbuckmaster (Dec 20, 2005)

You can also fletch your arrows with a left helical. This also fixes the stalled spinning issues in the spinnock video. It also gives you more clearance with your cables.


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## SpinNock (Oct 19, 2015)

A left offset or helical will cause the fletching to torque the bow string in that direction, resulting in a backspin in the opposite direction. SpinNocks will also decrease noise by eliminating the snapping of the arrow into a backspin at the moment it comes off the string.


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## swbuckmaster (Dec 20, 2005)

Back to the tail wag the dog theory. 
I built a string last night and installed it. I wonder how I got the bow to bare shaft tune with bare shaft and fletch shaft in the x on a Vegas face without a spin nock. It would seem impossible because no matter what I do the fletch will cause unnecessary string torque.


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## SpinNock (Oct 19, 2015)

swbuckmaster said:


> Back to the tail wag the dog theory.
> I built a string last night and installed it. I wonder how I got the bow to bare shaft tune with bare shaft and fletch shaft in the x on a Vegas face without a spin nock. It would seem impossible because no matter what I do the fletch will cause unnecessary string torque.


Everybody that has seen the slow mo video and read what I am referring to in it understands it, except you. I bet you did not know that the arrow will back spin, until I revealed it. 
1. At 205 mph, the fletching that is spinning backwards will slow down an arrow until they correct the spin in the right direction. Once you lose the speed you don't get it back when the arrow spins in the correct direction.
2. Accuracy is affected when an arrow that is back spinning has to correct the rotation into the correct direction in mid flight. This deviation is more noticeable as the distance gets longer. SpinNocks improve arrow flight accuracy by eliminating the effects of backspin.
3. SpinNocks eliminate the noise caused by the snapping of the fletching into a backspin at the moment the arrow comes off the bowstring.

Now, I do not know how else I can explain it to you, and I don't want to say what I am thinking now.


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## Bub commander (Oct 12, 2015)

Cool YouTube post


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## turbonockguy (Mar 4, 2013)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=znqBSsukLXs

ANOTHER COOL ONEE


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## SpinNock (Oct 19, 2015)

Bub commander said:


> Cool YouTube post


Thanks commander. 

Check out spinnock.com


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## SpinNock (Oct 19, 2015)

turbonockguy said:


> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=znqBSsukLXs
> 
> ANOTHER COOL ONEE


Since you chimed in here, I feel that I have to respond. 

Turbo nocks are not a mechanical nock and do not eliminate the problem of string torque, and in fact use the string to cause the arrow to spin torqueing the string again as the nock separates from the bow string.
Ask any competition archer and they will tell you that they want the nock to hold onto the bow string just enough to keep the arrow from falling off. They will even adjust the fit by filing the nock so the string come off easy.
SpinNocks will not torque the string as they come off the bow string, and the fit can be adjusted for the perfect fit.


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## swbuckmaster (Dec 20, 2005)

SpinNock
you have said two statments about your product and one about me I'd like to address.
1. it improves accuracy
2. it improves speed
3. that I didn't know about string torque causing arrow back spin.

1. I have seen plenty of perfect vegas scores 30x 300 to know the back spin you talk about isn't a problem. The league I shot in last year had 5 or more guys that would shoot 42-44 x 450 games each week. 

2. What are the speeds your product claims to improve over regular nocks?Can they be measured across a crono? If so please post them. I can't even tell you how many targets I saw with 3 holes in them. Impressive shooting!

3. I did know about string induced back spin. I played with it with one of my friends who was on the men's usa team a few years ago. We could see a bare shafts nock will consistantly hit a close target in a certain way. As you move back the nock starts to show signs of rotating. This is one of the reasons I started to fletch with a left helical. It however didn't improve scores. 

On a side note since you brought up competition archers wanting a perfect light nock fit and say the turbo nock doesn't have a good fit. What competition archer are shooting your product I'll watch for their score improvement. 

As it is right now your product is to expensive for outdoor fita. Nocks are an expendable product. The current nocks perform excellent for the price. Your nocks are not needed for the indoor game either because most shooters don't want to mess with shooting a drop away. They choose a blade and your product would be a nightmare to shoot off a blade. Competive indoor shooters are also about 3x away on average from perfect games in competition anyway. Those other 3 x's misses aren't or weren't caused by back arrow spin.

Now imho your audience or buyers are going to be low informed shooters like hunters. They will believe your claims about speed increase, quiet and alot shoot dropaways. Hunters are also a huge buch that would like to increase their accuracy. The truth is their accuracy would increase if they fixed their draw length and nock tunned their arrows. 

Now I'd be impressed if you posted video of your nock hitting the same hole at 40 yards from a hooter shooter. I know for a fact a regular arrow won't unless you tune the nocks. If they did I'd consider buying some for my hunting bow because I hate tunning my arrows.


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## Adamsdjr (Aug 17, 2015)

I bought some to try. When I get them I will install them on arrows that i have spine sorted and spine aligned and compare them to the the same arrows with their original nocks to see if there is any improvement. I then plan to vary the orientation with the spin nock and see what results that produces.


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## SpinNock (Oct 19, 2015)

swbuckmaster said:


> SpinNock
> you have said two statments about your product and one about me I'd like to address.
> 1. it improves accuracy
> 2. it improves speed
> ...


You replied on the 26th to my post that, "You can also fletch your arrows with a left helical. This also fixes the stalled spinning issues in the spinnock video." I had to correct your statement because you obviously did not understand the problem with the fletching causing string torque and back spin. Yet now you say you knew about the backspin problem all along.

I do not have a crono so I don't have numbers for you and I am sure different set up of fletchings, arrow weight, draw weight will give different results. I am basing the fact that at 300 fps (205 mph) the fletching that are spinning backwards on an arrow that weights approx. an ounce will slow an arrow down. If you go down the road at 70 mph and hold your hand out the window there is quite a bit of pressure. I realize that we are talking about fletching, so hold a couple of fingers out, but now go 205 mph. A arrow that is back spinning is going to slow down. 

You talk about shooting bare shafts at close range. That is a good way to start paper tuning your bow. But then you go on to say that a bare shafts "show signs of rotating". You will have to educate me on how you could know that a bare shaft rotates unless you have a really good high speed camera. But then I don't understand how you, or any one else for that matter, would worry about any marginal rotation of a bare shaft.

I am just starting out with SpinNock so I do not have any competition archers shooting my product. I am confident that will change.

Archery equipment is expensive, especially good competition equipment. SpinNocks would only be a small part of that. They are expensive to make.

SpinNocks can be used just like standard nocks. If you have to turn your standard nocks in the arrow to achieve clearance, you can also find the correct position using a SpinNock and just turn the fletching in that position after you nock the arrow on the string. In the inch or so of travel as the fletching is passing the blade rest, the arrow does not rotate so much that you cannot find a position that will clear the rest.

You are demanding of results, contradict you own statements in subsequent posts, and overall use false criticism of any discussion of arrow spin. I don't plan on trying to impress you, as you obviously have an ulterior motive.


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## SpinNock (Oct 19, 2015)

ooo


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## swbuckmaster (Dec 20, 2005)

SpinNock said:


> You replied on the 26th to my post that, "You can also fletch your arrows with a left helical. This also fixes the stalled spinning issues in the spinnock video." I had to correct your statement because you obviously did not understand the problem with the fletching causing string torque and back spin. Yet now you say you knew about the backspin problem all along.
> 
> I do not have a crono so I don't have numbers for you and I am sure different set up of fletchings, arrow weight, draw weight will give different results. I am basing the fact that at 300 fps (205 mph) the fletching that are spinning backwards on an arrow that weights approx. an ounce will slow an arrow down. If you go down the road at 70 mph and hold your hand out the window there is quite a bit of pressure. I realize that we are talking about fletching, so hold a couple of fingers out, but now go 205 mph. A arrow that is back spinning is going to slow down.
> 
> ...


Contradicting my own statments, false critism? Your the one that seems to not be able to read and comprehend what I have said. Back spin can be seen in bare shaft flight without a slow motion camera. Stand at two yards shoot a bare shaft and take a photo of the nock. Move back a yard and do it again. Then move back a yard and do it again. Move back enough you will notice a pattern of string induced rotation. With my bow the bare shaft rotated in a counter clockwise rotation. Imho this is what's causing the back spin on your arrows in your video not un even pressure on a three fletch arrow. There isn't uneven pressure on a three fletch arrow. The vanes are equal distance apart all the way arround the shaft. It takes a few feet for the vanes to correct the string induced counter clockwise rotation just like in your videos. Thus one of the reasons I fletched with a left helical. I didn't want to fight the string induced rotation and just went with the direction it naturally wanted to go. Again it didn't do anything for better scores. The reason it doesn't increase scores is because if it's repeatable it doesn't matter. 

You pay 200,000 for a machine to make nocks and don't pay 200 bucks for a crono to back up your claims of increased speed. The way you talk about sticking your hand out of the car window at 70 mph would make it sound like I'd see considerable increases in speed. I'm just calling your bluff. Maybe it's less then 1 fps maybe it's not. Who knows because you say there are to many variables to test. I personally think it's important and may even buy your product if it's a 5 fps or more increase. 

You claimed better accuracy. I'd just like to see the claim backed up is all. I have nothing against you or your product. In fact if you listen to my criticism and take it as constructive criticism maybe you could use it to better your sales.


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## SpinNock (Oct 19, 2015)

swbuckmaster said:


> Contradicting my own statments, false critism? Your the one that seems to not be able to read and comprehend what I have said. Back spin can be seen in bare shaft flight without a slow motion camera. Stand at two yards shoot a bare shaft and take a photo of the nock. Move back a yard and do it again. Then move back a yard and do it again. Move back enough you will notice a pattern of string induced rotation. With my bow the bare shaft rotated in a counter clockwise rotation. Imho this is what's causing the back spin on your arrows in your video not un even pressure on a three fletch arrow. There isn't uneven pressure on a three fletch arrow. The vanes are equal distance apart all the way arround the shaft. It takes a few feet for the vanes to correct the string induced counter clockwise rotation just like in your videos. Thus one of the reasons I fletched with a left helical. I didn't want to fight the string induced rotation and just went with the direction it naturally wanted to go. Again it didn't do anything for better scores. The reason it doesn't increase scores is because if it's repeatable it doesn't matter.
> 
> You pay 200,000 for a machine to make nocks and don't pay 200 bucks for a crono to back up your claims of increased speed. The way you talk about sticking your hand out of the car window at 70 mph would make it sound like I'd see considerable increases in speed. I'm just calling your bluff. Maybe it's less then 1 fps maybe it's not. Who knows because you say there are to many variables to test. I personally think it's important and may even buy your product if it's a 5 fps or more increase.
> 
> You claimed better accuracy. I'd just like to see the claim backed up is all. I have nothing against you or your product. In fact if you listen to my criticism and take it as constructive criticism maybe you could use it to better your sales.


You still cannot seem to understand that the back spin is caused by the bow string being torqued by the fletching trying to rotate the arrow. You still think that there is some mysterious force causing the spin on the arrow. 

I did not say I bought a $200,000 lathe, I said that they are made on a $200,000 lathe.

The speed improvement will depend on an archers setup, there is also a accuracy improvement, and because the arrow is not snapped into a back spin, noise is reduced.

You could not possibly give me or any other an unbiased review. You don't have what it takes.

Now, you are still the only one that can not seem to understand any of this.


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## SpinNock (Oct 19, 2015)

Go to spinnock.com and watch the slow mo and think about what you are seeing before you post your criticism. You are obviously not getting it.


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## SpinNock (Oct 19, 2015)

SpinNock said:


> You still cannot seem to understand that the back spin is caused by the bow string being torqued by the fletching trying to rotate the arrow. You still think that there is some mysterious force causing the spin on the arrow.
> 
> I did not say I bought a $200,000 lathe, I said that they are made on a $200,000 lathe.
> 
> ...


You did educate me on how to determine the rotation of a bare shaft. But this marginal rotation of a bare shaft is of no consequence in relation to the string torque caused by the fletching trying to rotate the arrow in the acceleration phase of the arrow.


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## swbuckmaster (Dec 20, 2005)

I've watched all your videos including the one where you talk about "Blitzenburger?". The jig is called Bitzenburger. I also believe the quality control on your product needs to be improved or at least state on the package which arrows fit your nocks. Asking a ******* to pull out a utility knife put some duct tape on his thumb and trim each of your nocks to fit his shafts sounds like a liability.

What is causing the back spin of a bare shaft arrow? I know it exisits. Anyone can prove it exisits by doing the simple test I talked about. Not a direct quote but you said something like it's small and insignificant or why I'm concerned about a bare shaft imaginary rotation. Now if a bare shaft didn't have back spin I'd believe hook line and sinker what your telling me about the fletching causing back spin. The back spin created by your string/loop or what ever to cause a 400 plus grain gold tip triple x arrow to rotate isn't small. I believe the reason your product doesn't show the back spin caused by the string induced torque is because you have the nock disconnected or free floating from the string. The vanes are now able to over come and exert the pressure to induce spin in the correct way. As of right now I don't buy your theory about the vanes causing pressure on one side of the string and thats whats causing the back spin. Thus the reason I fletch with a left helical. I'm not fighting the back spin that exisits with a bare shaft I go with the flow. My arrows should be just as quiet and fast as your arrows with spin nocks. Now If my bare shaft showed a clockwise rotation I'd fletch with a right helical. 

Show me your slow motion video of a left helical causing a clockwise back spin right after launch and I'll take back everything I've said about back spin and agree with you. 

As for you saying I cant give an honest unbiased review of a product that is absolutely not true. If I get a product and like the product I will stand buy the product and fight tooth and nail for that product. I don't even need to get paid for using the product.


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## SpinNock (Oct 19, 2015)

Correcting my spelling now, on a word like Bitzenburger. How quaint. I believe the administrators of this site have a post about correcting someone's misspelled words.

Removing SpinNocks from an arrow takes a deferent technique than removing a standard nock. Using pliers like you normally would on a standard nock will damage a SpinNock. Yes, I am trying to limit my liability of any injuries resulting from using a sharp knife to remove SpinNocks, but I also don't want customers to damage their SpinNocks, because it will not be covered by the warranty, as any product would not be. That's why I recommend a dull knife and protect your fingers with something. I have not had a problem with removing SpinNocks, but I can see that if someone is not careful with sharp instruments they could cut themselves. I also care about my customers, but then us ******** are pretty good at taking care of ourselves.

Trimming the fit of a SpinNock on the bow string is a personal preference, and is accomplished by using a mini file. Some may want a tighter fit especially in the tree stand aiming down, and others may want a light fit in a competition. 
A special tool is being designed to remove SpinNocks, but the plastic injection mold they will be made with is close to if not more than is $50,000. I have not received an exact quote yet, only an estimate. 

Still stuck on that bare shaft rotation. Making claims that I did something to achieve what I am talking about. I have SpinNocks on the arrow. There are pictures of SpinNocks on my website at spinnock.com.

When I had SpinNocks filmed in slow motion, the rental of the $50,000 camera was $3,000 per day with a cameraman to operate it, with a minimum rental of 1 day. I guess I should have tried left and right fletching, but I was not anticipating someone like you to argue that the fletching is not exerting the force torqueing the bow string. But I not going to rent the camera again, just to satisfy you.

No, I don't believe you there is any way possible that you could give an honest review. You are stuck on bare shaft rotation. Any thing moving freely through the air will most likely rotate some without some force keeping it from rotating.

You mentioned in a post a while back responding to another nock manufacturer, that Firenock did a test with spin wings and found no benefit to a spinning arrow. 
I have to suspect you are Firenock or are in bed with them, and you over here bashing arrow spin and people trying to make a legitimate and meaningful improvement in arrow flight.
Hiding behind your Avitar.
I am who I say I am.
Dale Harding
Who are you?


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## swbuckmaster (Dec 20, 2005)

I don't have anything to do with firenock. In fact I was just as hard on him as I have been on you if you search his post far enough. His vanes will by his own admission over spin a bunch of the current broadheads on the market. Maybe he's fixed that problem I don't know. The only reason I believe the area his vanes have an advantage over other products is in the target market. His vanes are designed to spin from lift created by his airfoil design. They also spin the arrow faster then anything out. As far as I can tell his vanes don't use drag to spin them. His vanes should stick to the shaft really well because they dont use an offset or helical. The down side to his product is the price of vane and jig. I haven't bought any of his vanes because of the up front cost of the jig. I would have bought one of his arrow spine testers though if I hadn't bought the one I bought before he came out with his. I think his arrow spine tester is better then anything out. I also believe the rest of his tools are well made and almost worth the cost he's charging.

I think your videos explaining your product are better then firenocks videos. I have a hard time understanding the way firenock speaks in his. 

I apreaciate your honesty about your testing and the costs you have invested.
It goes along ways with a thick headed opinionated guy like myself. However we will just agree we disagree on this issue. That's fine though.


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## turbonockguy (Mar 4, 2013)

swbuckmaster said:


> I've watched all your videos including the one where you talk about "Blitzenburger?". The jig is called Bitzenburger. I also believe the quality control on your product needs to be improved or at least state on the package which arrows fit your nocks. Asking a ******* to pull out a utility knife put some duct tape on his thumb and trim each of your nocks to fit his shafts sounds like a liability.
> 
> What is causing the back spin of a bare shaft arrow? I know it exisits. Anyone can prove it exisits by doing the simple test I talked about. Not a direct quote but you said something like it's small and insignificant or why I'm concerned about a bare shaft imaginary rotation. Now if a bare shaft didn't have back spin I'd believe hook line and sinker what your telling me about the fletching causing back spin. The back spin created by your string/loop or what ever to cause a 400 plus grain gold tip triple x arrow to rotate isn't small. I believe the reason your product doesn't show the back spin caused by the string induced torque is because you have the nock disconnected or free floating from the string. The vanes are now able to over come and exert the pressure to induce spin in the correct way. As of right now I don't buy your theory about the vanes causing pressure on one side of the string and thats whats causing the back spin. Thus the reason I fletch with a left helical. I'm not fighting the back spin that exisits with a bare shaft I go with the flow. My arrows should be just as quiet and fast as your arrows with spin nocks. Now If my bare shaft showed a clockwise rotation I'd fletch with a right helical.
> 
> ...


I am glad you are doing this and not me. I have had issues with him in the past and found arguing with him is of little value. 
Winning an argument on AT is kind of like winning the special olympics. ( no disrespect to those who participate in the special Olympics)


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## SpinNock (Oct 19, 2015)

turbonockguy said:


> I am glad you are doing this and not me. I have had issues with him in the past and found arguing with him is of little value.
> Winning an argument on AT is kind of like winning the special olympics. ( no disrespect to those who participate in the special Olympics)


Winning the argument was not the goal, making sure everyone sees some of the unseen problems in archery was.

"Tread lightly here... You may not like the outcome." author unknown


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## rebelred (May 22, 2015)

Reading this thread has been fascinating. I don't mean to offend anyone on my first post here, please don't be insulted. but I have to ask the $1.000.000 question. At what point does all this become nothing but a gimmick?
When it comes to hunting,does this even matter? If you can hit a 6 in circle consistently at any reasonable yardage. your gonna kill the deer.Fred Bear used to kill kodiak bear up north all the time years ago.He had a stick with a string and used wooden arrows. I guarantee you. he wasn't pulling no 70# bow at 300+ fps, and that bear is still dead. As for the competition shooter, it was stated earlier that their hitting perfect scores pretty regular. Does any of this really help them that much, since they were shooting basically perfect already? I don't follow competition shooting. but with all the advances in archery today, are they really shooting better that the guys 70 years ago. or are they just getting to that level faster? The only place I can see a real difference with this is shooting small moving targets (ie quail. pheasant. grouse). Those guy's are still using recurves with the big flu flu arrows. 
I guess what i'm asking all of these fancy nocks, mechanical bow shooters, and what not's. all just to make up for lack of skill? I'm not trying to tick someone off. I guess I should give a little background to explain. I haven't touched a bow since I was a teenager. With all this hunger games stuff my teenager is getting me back into it. I walked into any archery shop and wow has that changed. I still shoot fingers, so i was looking for a plunger and a flipper rest. This guy jumped all over me like I was some kind of idiot. My buddies dad taught me how to shoot when I was 14. He won a trip to Canada for out shooting Fred Bear in a contest, plus him and two of his teenage friends started an archery company in the early 60's, that I think is still around today. I may be way out of practice. but I don't think I'm an idiot, I had a pretty good teacher. Ok this guy at the shop really ticked me off, but at the same time got me thinking. Has things changed so much that everything I was taught not apply anymore? Or has archery become like stereo's and tv's. We hit the peak of quality with stereo's in the 80's and tv's in the 90's, any improvements are beyond our ears and eye's physical capabilities. They're just done to sell newer products.


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## SpinNock (Oct 19, 2015)

rebelred said:


> Reading this thread has been fascinating. I don't mean to offend anyone on my first post here, please don't be insulted. but I have to ask the $1.000.000 question. At what point does all this become nothing but a gimmick?
> When it comes to hunting,does this even matter? If you can hit a 6 in circle consistently at any reasonable yardage. your gonna kill the deer.Fred Bear used to kill kodiak bear up north all the time years ago.He had a stick with a string and used wooden arrows. I guarantee you. he wasn't pulling no 70# bow at 300+ fps, and that bear is still dead. As for the competition shooter, it was stated earlier that their hitting perfect scores pretty regular. Does any of this really help them that much, since they were shooting basically perfect already? I don't follow competition shooting. but with all the advances in archery today, are they really shooting better that the guys 70 years ago. or are they just getting to that level faster? The only place I can see a real difference with this is shooting small moving targets (ie quail. pheasant. grouse). Those guy's are still using recurves with the big flu flu arrows.
> I guess what i'm asking all of these fancy nocks, mechanical bow shooters, and what not's. all just to make up for lack of skill? I'm not trying to tick someone off. I guess I should give a little background to explain. I haven't touched a bow since I was a teenager. With all this hunger games stuff my teenager is getting me back into it. I walked into any archery shop and wow has that changed. I still shoot fingers, so i was looking for a plunger and a flipper rest. This guy jumped all over me like I was some kind of idiot. My buddies dad taught me how to shoot when I was 14. He won a trip to Canada for out shooting Fred Bear in a contest, plus him and two of his teenage friends started an archery company in the early 60's, that I think is still around today. I may be way out of practice. but I don't think I'm an idiot, I had a pretty good teacher. Ok this guy at the shop really ticked me off, but at the same time got me thinking. Has things changed so much that everything I was taught not apply anymore? Or has archery become like stereo's and tv's. We hit the peak of quality with stereo's in the 80's and tv's in the 90's, any improvements are beyond our ears and eye's physical capabilities. They're just done to sell newer products.


I'm pretty busy, but I hate to let someone's question(s) go unanswered. Your asking if archery equipment of today is that much better than that used 70 years ago. I guess that is a legitimate question for someone that doesn't know. You should do a little research, go to a pro shop, and maybe go to an archery tournament and talk to some of the archers and ask that question.

I think archery equipment has become high tech precision equipment. Many advancements have been made, compound bows, carbon fiber arrows, precision sights, drop away rests, etc. All design to improve the ability to shoot an arrow more accurately and farther.

Is SpinNock a gimmick? I'm not intending it to be. I saw a problem that I thought I could solve and set out to develop a product to fix it. I have spent a lot of time and effort, not to mention money, to solve that problem. Is it necessary? No. But then with that said, none of the other high tech archery equipment is necessary, unless you want to shoot better and farther than you can with 70 year archery equipment. 

A lot of men, and animals, died with the aid of smooth bore muskets. Why would someone invent rifling to spin the bullet? I can only guess is because the guy that invented rifling saw a problem, and set out to find a solution to it.


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## that1guy27 (Jun 26, 2015)

I have seen slow motion videos that show no backspin on the arrow with a regular nock, the vanes were matched to the bow. Also when I stick my arrow on the bow it's oriented the very same way every single time now spinning of the shaft needed that could cause inconsistencies.


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## SpinNock (Oct 19, 2015)

that1guy27 said:


> I have seen slow motion videos that show no backspin on the arrow with a regular nock, the vanes were matched to the bow. Also when I stick my arrow on the bow it's oriented the very same way every single time now spinning of the shaft needed that could cause inconsistencies.


I have seen those slow motion videos also. Will all bow, arrow, and fletching set ups cause an arrow to back spin? Obviously not. Will other set ups cause back spin? Obviously so. 

But the fact still remains that you want your arrow to spin to increase accuracy, but the more spin your try to achieve by increasing the offset of your fletching or by using a helical fletched arrow, the more torque is transferred to the bow string during acceleration and the more problems arise because of it. 

I am not a "Professional Archer" so I have not studied all of the possible techniques, how to guides, and instructions on archery, bow and arrow set up, and tuning. Please PM me on how to match your vanes to your bow. I'm curious.

I am though a licensed Commercial Pilot, and know at least something about aerodynamics.

If you have a clearance issue and need to turn your nock in the arrow with your fletching in a certain position so the fletching clears, you can do the same with SpinNock. Apply some chalk to the leading edge of your fletching and try different fletch positions until they clear. The inch or so that the fletching has to travel to pass by the obstruction, the arrow does not rotate so much that you cannot find a position that allows clearance. Then after you nock an arrow, rotate it so the fletching is in that position.


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## that1guy27 (Jun 26, 2015)

Take your bow and a bareshaft no fletchings at all and regular nock. Mark the nock or arrow and shoot it at 3,4,5,6,7 feet and see which way the arrow wants to spin that's the natural spin the bow puts on the arrow and then fletch accordingly. I'm sorry but who wants to adjust their arrow every single time they nock it? Once mine are nock tuned and perfect I don't have to touch them?


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## SpinNock (Oct 19, 2015)

that1guy27 said:


> Take your bow and a bareshaft no fletchings at all and regular nock. Mark the nock or arrow and shoot it at 3,4,5,6,7 feet and see which way the arrow wants to spin that's the natural spin the bow puts on the arrow and then fletch accordingly. I'm sorry but who wants to adjust their arrow every single time they nock it? Once mine are nock tuned and perfect I don't have to touch them?


As I have already explained in a few posts back, anything moving freely through the air will most likely rotate without something to force it not to. The backspin you see in the slow motion videos at spinnock.com is caused by the fletching trying to rotate the arrow during acceleration. This torques the bow string, and at the moment the arrow starts separating from the string the torque string straightens, causing the arrow to spin in the opposite direction.


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## b0w_bender (Apr 30, 2006)

rebelred said:


> Reading this thread has been fascinating. I don't mean to offend anyone on my first post here, please don't be insulted. but I have to ask the $1.000.000 question. At what point does all this become nothing but a gimmick?


interesting discussion here, I think both the turbo nock and the spin nock increase the number of rotations and shortens the distance of when the arrow starts to spin. Both of those are good things. I would even go so far as to say it likely makes a nominal accuracy difference particularly at longer distances. I'm not sure how you would best demonstrate that or quantify it though. I'm sure using a shooting machine they wouldn't dramatically out score a standard nock but I'll reserve final judgement on that after testing. 

I will say if it helps you believe it is more accurate thus increasing your confidence in the shot that likely has an even greater affect on your accuracy. My point is most misses are the Indian not the arrow. As a coach i find it incredibly frustrating when students try to solve their accuracy problems with equipment. Great form, mental preparation and practice is far more important than the extra spin you get with a wiz-bang super techno nock or or the zippy slick arrow rest extraordinar or the super expensive super limbs, cable guard, sight, silencer, equipment du jour bla bla bla...

This is not a slam on spin or turbo nocks or any of the 500 thousand other archery products on the market but speaking from experience as a member of the *"Better Archery Through Aggressive Spending"* club I can assure you that equipment is no panacea for accuracy.


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## SpinNock (Oct 19, 2015)

b0w_bender said:


> interesting discussion here, I think both the turbo nock and the spin nock increase the number of rotations and shortens the distance of when the arrow starts to spin. Both of those are good things. I would even go so far as to say it likely makes a nominal accuracy difference particularly at longer distances. I'm not sure how you would best demonstrate that or quantify it though. I'm sure using a shooting machine they wouldn't dramatically out score a standard nock but I'll reserve final judgement on that after testing.
> 
> I will say if it helps you believe it is more accurate thus increasing your confidence in the shot that likely has an even greater affect on your accuracy. My point is most misses are the Indian not the arrow. As a coach i find it incredibly frustrating when students try to solve their accuracy problems with equipment. Great form, mental preparation and practice is far more important than the extra spin you get with a wiz-bang super techno nock or or the zippy slick arrow rest extraordinar or the super expensive super limbs, cable guard, sight, silencer, equipment du jour bla bla bla...
> 
> This is not a slam on spin or turbo nocks or any of the 500 thousand other archery products on the market but speaking from experience as a member of the *"Better Archery Through Aggressive Spending"* club I can assure you that equipment is no panacea for accuracy.


b0w bender,

You are right, no amount of money spent on expensive archery equipment will make you a better archer. Unless you practice proper form and techniques. 

This thread is about one particular problem that, so far as I know, has not been shown or discussed in detail. If you have not seen the slow motion at spinnock.com, take a look at it. If you have a comment or question about it, I would be glad to discuss it with you.


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## SpinNock (Oct 19, 2015)

See slow motion video of what a Twister Nock really does at: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ILFR_cmclS4


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## swbuckmaster (Dec 20, 2005)

What is that a wood dowel flying out of the way? Why is a wood dowel being used to fire the bow?

Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk


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## SpinNock (Oct 19, 2015)

swbuckmaster said:


> What is that a wood dowel flying out of the way? Why is a wood dowel being used to fire the bow?
> 
> Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk


The wood dowel is used only to push the cord from the wench out from the line of sight of the wench. Otherwise, the wench would be in the way of the camera.


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## SpinNock (Oct 19, 2015)

I would like for Twister Nock to explain the video at: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ILFR_cmclS4


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## Gamover06 (Aug 20, 2014)

SpinNock calling out other companies and other AT members about their product and/or their thoughts/posts isn't the best way to sell your product. You have only been a member for a few months and most of your posts are disagreeing with someone's posts or going after another members product. This is a sight to help archers out not tell them what is wrong with how they think. The best string makers on here have for the most part endorsed most others strings instead of say their string making ability is garbage. I guess for the most part that is what I and most people that I hunt and shoot with look for in a company that we want to spend our money with. Its your business and your company so I guess run it how ever you want just though I would put a little bit of my 2 cents worth. Looks like a great product that might work according to "your" videos.


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## SpinNock (Oct 19, 2015)

Gamover06 said:


> SpinNock calling out other companies and other AT members about their product and/or their thoughts/posts isn't the best way to sell your product. You have only been a member for a few months and most of your posts are disagreeing with someone's posts or going after another members product. This is a sight to help archers out not tell them what is wrong with how they think. The best string makers on here have for the most part endorsed most others strings instead of say their string making ability is garbage. I guess for the most part that is what I and most people that I hunt and shoot with look for in a company that we want to spend our money with. Its your business and your company so I guess run it how ever you want just though I would put a little bit of my 2 cents worth. Looks like a great product that might work according to "your" videos.


Yes you are probably right. The only thing is he came onto my facebook page and tried to stomp on me there. His posts are still there if you would like to see them. And he is saying that he has a product that will do something and attacking mine.

So game on.


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## Gamover06 (Aug 20, 2014)

SpinNock said:


> Yes you are probably right. The only thing is he came onto my facebook page and tried to stomp on me there. His posts are still there if you would like to see them. And he is saying that he has a product that will do something and attacking mine.
> 
> So game on.


I guess that sounds fair. 

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


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## jpy15026 (Nov 5, 2015)

the arrow starts spinning as it leaves the bowstring!!... is what I thought


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## SpinNock (Oct 19, 2015)

jpy15026 said:


> the arrow starts spinning as it leaves the bowstring!!... is what I thought


I still would like an explaination of the slow mo video at: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ILFR_cmclS4

and how Twister Nock can improve archery?


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## northshoremb (Aug 5, 2003)

The twister nock is a cool idea in thought but not good for competitive archery. The way to be accurate is to nock tune or better yet align the spines all he same at 12 o'clock position and use a hooter shooter to make all arrows hit same hole. If you get ones that don't group sell them. But if you have a nock that isn't always in the correct position that means your spine is always in a different spot and you will be less accurate. I would put tuned competition arrows with pin nock against your spin nock any day of the week and the standard tuned arrows will blow away the spin nocks

Sent from my SM-G900W8 using Tapatalk


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## SpinNock (Oct 19, 2015)

northshoremb said:


> The twister nock is a cool idea in thought but not good for competitive archery. The way to be accurate is to nock tune or better yet align the spines all he same at 12 o'clock position and use a hooter shooter to make all arrows hit same hole. If you get ones that don't group sell them. But if you have a nock that isn't always in the correct position that means your spine is always in a different spot and you will be less accurate. I would put tuned competition arrows with pin nock against your spin nock any day of the week and the standard tuned arrows will blow away the spin nocks
> 
> Sent from my SM-G900W8 using Tapatalk


Have you seen the slow motion videos at spinnock.com showing the effects of string torque?


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## northshoremb (Aug 5, 2003)

Yes

Sent from my SM-G900W8 using Tapatalk


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## SpinNock (Oct 19, 2015)

northshoremb said:


> Yes
> 
> Sent from my SM-G900W8 using Tapatalk


Have you also seen the slow mo on my Facebook page of a Twister Nock? It shows what a Twister Nock really does. But because a Twister Nock locks up and acts like a standard nock, the slow mo also shows what a standard nock does. 

Besides causing string torque and back spin, the bow string moves to the right during acceleration because the air pressure on the fletching is loading the bow string to the right. If the arrow was fletched to the left, you would get back spin to the right and side loading of the bow string to the left.

SpinNock is a free spinning nock. It is the only nock designed to eliminate the effects string torque and the side loading of the bow string.


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## kokes (Sep 25, 2013)

Hi, I have been told about this thread because of my interest in aerodynamics. Can I hop in? I believe that most aerodynamic nock would be no nock at all. Would this be legal for competitive archery?

Jan


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## SpinNock (Oct 19, 2015)

Thank you for thinking outside the box. Anybody have any thoughts on this idea?



SpinNocks are available at spinnock.com


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## b0w_bender (Apr 30, 2006)

Kokes I think you may have a winner there. here are the initial concerns that I would have. the string my rotate on release how would that twist affect the right left orientation of the back of the arrow. With a standard nock the string can rotate inside the nock groove without affecting the arrow. I have also witnessed the string on release (slow motion) angle vertically, I'm wondering if that would affect the vertical travel of the arrow. Lastly I don't think the cone shape would stay in the ring as the arrow is drawn. maybe a pin shape would be better or maybe a nipple that snapped into the ring...? but ya that's thinking outside the box.


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## GRIMWALD (Sep 28, 2012)

It is more likley that tbe string will split around the nock with the force of the release.
Even if you were to use an plasic ring for duribility, thr force of repeated releases, would tare tbe loop free of the string.
You would be better serves with a ball and socket nocking system, the nock would have full rotatioal freedom.

GRIM


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## northshoremb (Aug 5, 2003)

Why not just use a loose nock? That's why a nock that barely holds on is more accurate then a nock that "clicks" on. Use a D-loop and a loose nock and you eliminate the issues you speak of

Sent from my SM-G900W8 using Tapatalk


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## swbuckmaster (Dec 20, 2005)

This whole thread gives me a migraine

Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk


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## SpinNock (Oct 19, 2015)

northshoremb said:


> Why not just use a loose nock? That's why a nock that barely holds on is more accurate then a nock that "clicks" on. Use a D-loop and a loose nock and you eliminate the issues you speak of
> 
> Sent from my SM-G900W8 using Tapatalk


A loose nock will not eliminate string torque because the surfaces between the nock and arrow are not design to rotate against each other when being pressed against each other. 

It would eliminate back spin, but then there is still the problem of side loading on the bow string caused by the air pressure on the fletching trying to rotate the arrow during acceleration.


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## Poppadaddy (Feb 27, 2016)

I took several looks at the test shot through the gel. The arrow appeared to be rotating clockwise before penetration and counter clockwise as it exited. Anyone able to explain the physics
behind that or did I see it wrong?


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## SpinNock (Oct 19, 2015)

SpinNock said:


> I'm pretty busy, but I hate to let someone's question(s) go unanswered. Your asking if archery equipment of today is that much better than that used 70 years ago. I guess that is a legitimate question for someone that doesn't know. You should do a little research, go to a pro shop, and maybe go to an archery tournament and talk to some of the archers and ask that question.
> 
> I think archery equipment has become high tech precision equipment. Many advancements have been made, compound bows, carbon fiber arrows, precision sights, drop away rests, etc. All design to improve the ability to shoot an arrow more accurately and farther.
> 
> ...


SpinNock


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