# Are you "Smarter than a fifth grader?" Hinge/firing related.......



## Lazarus (Sep 19, 2005)

I want to share a personal story with you that will hopefully bring to light the absurdity of one particular method (well it's promoted as a method anyway) of firing a hinge. Please bear with me while I tell a little story.

First, there is a very reputable talk radio personality that has made a very good living for himself with a variety of different methods of engaging his audience. One of his tactics is "demonstrating absurdity by being absurd." Well, what I'm about to share with you probably falls into that category, but only by accident. It wasn't by design in any way. It was brought to my attention only by my 9 year old. So here is the story;

I have a 9 year old fifth grader that is a budding shooter. He has more talent than the next ten people I might run across in a day. He's a shooter. His problem is focus. He's distracted with football and air rifles and his attempt to bag the Boone and Crockett squirrel.....and school, just a myriad of things take him away from archery. He's a classic underachiever, at least at this point. Nevertheless he has an incredible intellect coupled with the fact that I can show him something once and he "gets it." Well, yesterday morning I was sitting on the couch and he saw my hinge setting beside me on the couch. Being the inquisitive one that he is he picked the hinge up and began to fire it. The hinge is actually an HT3 Pro that used to be an HT4 that I bought cheap with the intent to make it a "3." First night I had it I cut the 4th finger off and did as I had planned. 

So this is the conversation that followed;

Him, "Dad why did you cut the fourth finger off?"
Me, "Because it's actually easier to fire when you can drop your pinky and relax your hand more." 
Him, "So why not cut another one off? Can you pull it with 2?" 
Me, "Well, yes, some people pull with only two fingers, I have, and it makes your hand even more relaxed." 
Him, "Why don't you do that then?"
Me, "Because you lose just a little bit of control when you only pull with two fingers. Three is a better balance for me."
Him, "Oh." (Puzzled look on his face.) 
Him, "What about pulling it with one finger? Can you do that?" 
Me, "Well, I believe you probably could, but I'm not sure you'd want to." 
He interrupts......"Yeah, and if you only had one finger on it there'd be no way to get it to fire would there?"

All of a sudden a light bulb goes on in my head!!! I laughed, he had no idea why......then I simply explained to him that there was a group of people that actually thought if you pulled your bow with his one finger approach that you could actually fire the release by engaging another totally different aspect of the shot called "back tension" and the hinge would magically fire on it's own..........simply by pulling harder, or pulling around the back of your head with your elbow, immediately pulling everything else out of whack. 

So, if a fifth grader can figure out in a split second that you can't fire a hinge type release without some kind of rotation why are there some many adults that can't figure it out? Are you really smarter than a fifth grader? 

It's just not really that hard to figure out is it? If you'll just clear your head of all your learned (incorrect) prejudices about the mechanics of a firing process and a hinge (like a nine year old) you can do it. 

Have a nice day all! :cheers:


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## ron w (Jan 5, 2013)

hinges don't "fire on their own" with back tension.


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## Lazarus (Sep 19, 2005)

ronw........they don't fire at all with "back tension." "Back tension" is an attribute of EVERY archery shot taken with a bow, and has nothing to do with firing a release.

Furthermore, if you do choose to *TRY* to fire a release (incorrectly) by continuing to pull harder or curl your elbow out of alignment you are guaranteed to pull the shot off line. It's as simple as that, with no exceptions.


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## unclejane (Jul 22, 2012)

Lazarus said:


> then I simply explained to him that there was a group of people that actually thought if you pulled your bow with his one finger approach that you could actually fire the release by engaging another totally different aspect of the shot called "back tension" and the hinge would magically fire on it's own..........


There is no such group of people; nobody believes that or ever said that.

LS


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## unclejane (Jul 22, 2012)

Lazarus said:


> Furthermore, if you do choose to *TRY* to fire a release (incorrectly) by continuing to pull harder or curl your elbow out of alignment you are guaranteed to pull the shot off line. It's as simple as that, with no exceptions.


Nope. Shot 10 arrows over lunch with my hinge this way a couple hours ago (if I can do it anyone can! lol). Note that rotation of the release with back tension only* does *happen. Nobody ever said it didn't.

LS


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## Lazarus (Sep 19, 2005)

unclejane said:


> There is no such group of people; nobody believes that.
> 
> LS


So would you please explain to the masses (in your words) how if you pulled the hinge with one finger the release could fire? No, that's not a misprint, I meant to ask that precise question. Please stay on topic.....how will it fire with a one finger pull?


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## unclejane (Jul 22, 2012)

Lazarus said:


> So would you please explain to the masses (in your words) how if you pulled the hinge with one finger the release could fire?


The question is unfortunately loaded and can't be answered as asked. It assumes someone ever said this was possible or even nominal in the first place. It's not, and no one ever said it was.



> No, that's not a misprint, I meant to ask that precise question. Please stay on topic.....how will it fire with a one finger pull?


This is an attempt at an argument type known as a "straw man". Look it up and then see above.

LS


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## Lazarus (Sep 19, 2005)

unclejane said:


> Nope. Shot 10 arrows over lunch with my hinge this way a couple hours ago (if I can do it anyone can! lol). Note that rotation of the release with back tension only* does *happen. Nobody ever said it didn't.
> 
> LS


And they all nutted the x at 50 yards because you didn't pull out of alignment?


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## Lazarus (Sep 19, 2005)

unclejane said:


> The question is unfortunately loaded and can't be answered as asked. It assumes someone ever said this was possible or even nominal in the first place. It's not, and no one ever said it was.
> 
> LS


Actually, you sir are the one that needs to look up the definition of a straw man.

If a release can be fired with no rotation of the hand with all the fingers on it, it should be common sense that it can be fired by pulling with only one finger and increase the tension using "back tension." Go for it.


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## unclejane (Jul 22, 2012)

Lazarus said:


> Actually, you sir are the one that needs to look up the definition of a straw man.


Unneccessary, since you're the one engaging the fallacy, not me.


> If a release can be fired with no rotation of the hand with all the fingers on it, it should be common sense that it can be fired by pulling with only one finger and increase the tension using "back tension." Go for it.


You introduced the premise "a release can be fired with no rotation of the hand with all the fingers on it", not me or anyone else. So the conclusion you've drawn from that premise is also yours, and not anyone else's. You're arguing with only yourself, in other words. Sorry.

LS


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## Lazarus (Sep 19, 2005)

No unclejane.....it's called common sense. That is exactly the premise that has been introduced HUNDREDS of THOUSANDs of times in archery discussions. 

I didn't post this topic to argue. I only posted it to demonstrate how a child can figure out basic principles in an instant (minus the incorrect prejudices) that some of you adults can't. 

I'm not gonna argue with ya. Have a nice afternoon. :cheers:


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## ron w (Jan 5, 2013)

who believes a hinge will fire with a one finger pull. if anything is spreading some sort of myth, that accusation, is certainly one. I've shot a hinge for 40 years and never once heard anyone say anything of the sort. 
as far as pulling the shot out of alignment, my dot rest and string are exactly lined up when viewed from behind the string. if rotational back tension pulls the sight out of alignment, there would be offset between these three points. 
you can choose to call it what you want, i'll choose to call it "rotational back tension" .....names are just that....just "names"..... you have to call it something and the process of rhomboid contraction to produce rotation is universally called "back tension". it's just a name for a process that is not as you claim,....a myth. 
you do realize, that you alone, are the only one that claims it is a myth, don't you.


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## RCR_III (Mar 19, 2011)

Is there a purpose to all the bickering and fighting over all this? Multiple pages. Multiple threads. One of which was shut down and restarted. It all seems a little personal to me and honestly doesn't really coincide with the purpose of this subforum. 

I can understand the arguments behind the don't tell someone there's only one way to do something. Or this way or that was is detrimental to someone. I've been there I can agree on it all to a point. But, it's not a one size fits all shoe. Everyone has to adapt to methods that work for them. 

On a side note.... I wonder if any of the pros come on here and laugh at all the talk lately. Or shake their heads maybe? 

You know the old saying.... The only ones boasting the size of their stabilizer are the ones trying to make the others believe it's true. 

Either way. In before the deletion that'll come at some point from the looks of how things have started out.


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## unclejane (Jul 22, 2012)

Lazarus said:


> No unclejane.....it's called common sense.


No, it's called a Straw Man Argument - inventing an argument or line of reasoning and attributing it to others who've never made it or have any beliefs about its truth value. 



> That is exactly the premise that has been introduced HUNDREDS of THOUSANDs of times in archery discussions.


I don't believe I've ever seen anyone say a hinge will fire without being rotated. You're likely just confused by the descriptions of the "pure back tension" (or whatever the formal name is) method; it most certainly does involve a rotation of the release and no one, to my knowledge, ever said otherwise. And certainly the "one finger" idea is yours and yours only.



> I didn't post this topic to argue. I only posted it to demonstrate how a child can figure out basic principles in an instant (minus the incorrect prejudices) that some of you adults can't.


At least try to counter arguments that actually exist. You don't accomplish anything attacking claims that no one has made.

LS


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## ron w (Jan 5, 2013)

you keep insisting it is a myth, but when asked to provide a reasonably supporting reason you think it is a myth, you never manage to come up with one single, sensible or logical piece of evident support of your assertion.
if you don't like the name "back tension, fine...then call it something else, but don't claim it's a myth, because you and only you think that's what it is, produce something that can realisticly support your claim. other wise, it is you, who is spreading a myth, because the consensus recognizes what back tension is.


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## ron w (Jan 5, 2013)

Lazarus said:


> That's could possible be the most absurd (and inaccurate) thing you've said in this discussion to date. Even if it were true, I'd feel pretty comfortable in calling a myth a myth.
> 
> You have a nice afternoon too sir. :cheers:


well,...again i'll ask you to produce some spec of evidence that is a so-called "myth". there must be some reasonable source of derived evidence that makes you think it's a myth....what is that evidence ?.
as I've said, I've used a hinge for 40years and have never once heard anyone else refer to it as a myth, in any way, shape or form, other than you. 
here's your big chance to stick my foot in my mouth.....how about giving it a go.


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## Lazarus (Sep 19, 2005)

ronw.......no reason to go there. It's been going there over and over and over. The myth has been exposed. And no, you weren't shooting a hinge 40 years ago. Unless you got it directly from stan...

Thanks, done with you guys. :cheers:


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## EPLC (May 21, 2002)

ron w said:


> you keep insisting it is a myth, but when asked to provide a reasonably supporting reason you think it is a myth, you never manage to come up with one single, sensible or logical piece of evident support of your assertion.
> if you don't like the name "back tension, fine...then call it something else, but don't claim it's a myth, because you and only you think that's what it is, produce something that can realisticly support your claim. other wise, it is you, who is spreading a myth, because the consensus recognizes what back tension is.


The "myth" that Laz is talking about is that back tension is a standalone method of shooting a hinge without any hand movement. IMO the true myth that is continually spread concerning this method is that it should "only" be done without any hand motion... and all of the verbiage that supports it such as "cheating the hinge" and stuff like that. I won't say it can't be done... hey anything is possible given enough effort. I'll even concede that there are many folks out there that are absolutely convinced that they are executing in this manner. Whether or not they are actually doing this without hand manipulation doesn't matter as they "believe" they are doing it, and if it is working for them to think this Great! 

I personally find that after chasing this for more time than I care to admit, I've found that, myth or not, it's not for me. I can't personally do it effectively, so for me... it actually is a myth. 

MYTH: an idea or story that is believed by many people but that is not true ~ Merriam-Webster


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## unclejane (Jul 22, 2012)

EPLC said:


> The "myth" that Laz is talking about is that back tension is a standalone method of shooting a hinge without any hand movement. IMO the true myth that is continually spread concerning this method is that it should "only" be done without any hand motion...


Sounds like you and Laz are simply confused about the method, or don't understand the presentation? I freely admit I misunderstood it when I first read it - I made assumptions similar to ya'lls about it (and I have the holes in the wall to prove it, as I posted elsewhere lol). But hand rotation certainly does happen and is involved, the rotation of the hinge is simply induced by the movement of the arm involved when pulling with the back muscles.

Again, I've never seen this technique presented in the way you two are describing. No one to my knowledge ever said "without any hand movement". It's just not the movement described in the other techniques, maybe that's what's tripping you up?

And as I said, I've been doing it off and on for a couple of days now and it is (finally) working for me. My hand, and the release in it, most certainly does rotate when I execute it.

LS


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## northern rednek (Oct 24, 2008)

Wow hard to believe that a persons release method could get so bitter. Some of you guys should step back and read some of these arguments from a third party perspective. I don't think anyone is claiming that a hinge will go off without any rotation( I could be wrong) I think this is all about the way you go about making it rotate.


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## ron w (Jan 5, 2013)

Lazarus said:


> ronw.......no reason to go there. It's been going there over and over and over. The myth has been exposed. And no, you weren't shooting a hinge 40 years ago. Unless you got it directly from stan...
> 
> Thanks, done with you guys. :cheers:


 ooohhh, ....OK .....39 years ago, excuse me for rounding off. there's no reason to go there, because there isn't anywhere to go. you're assertion that it is a myth, is unfounded and just some crazy idea you have, that you probably don't even know where it came from. once again, you can't produce one single bit of realistic, anatomical and/or logical evidence, that rotational BT, as a "firing engine", is a myth.


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## jwilson48 (Apr 1, 2009)

one way a person could test if a hinge would fire from strictly "pure back tension" would be to put the bow on a peg, hook a string on each side of the release so the tension is the same (like a static release hand) and pull back and replicate the back tension movement (left and/or down for a right handed shooter)....i promise you in that scenario the release will not fire. the hand has got to cause the release to fire. whether that is from relaxing, adding pressure, scissors, etc, is up to the individual to determine. in the scenario i just made up, you would have to add pressure or remove pressure from one side of the release or the other.


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## ron w (Jan 5, 2013)

EPLC said:


> The "myth" that Laz is talking about is that back tension is a standalone method of shooting a hinge without any hand movement. IMO the true myth that is continually spread concerning this method is that it should "only" be done without any hand motion... and all of the verbiage that supports it such as "cheating the hinge" and stuff like that. I won't say it can't be done... hey anything is possible given enough effort. I'll even concede that there are many folks out there that are absolutely convinced that they are executing in this manner. Whether or not they are actually doing this without hand manipulation doesn't matter as they "believe" they are doing it, and if it is working for them to think this Great!
> 
> I personally find that after chasing this for more time than I care to admit, I've found that, myth or not, it's not for me. I can't personally do it effectively, so for me... it actually is a myth.
> 
> MYTH: an idea or story that is believed by many people but that is not true ~ Merriam-Webster


 I shoot my hinge by deliberately not moving my hand at the wrist and deliberately not shifting finger pressures on the release body. no manipulation, beyond what is produced by the swing of my elbow transferred to the release body with my forearm and hand acting as a monolithic lever attached to the release, no rotation through or at the wrist and no finger manipulation. 
typical of unfounded assertions, when evidence is requested, the originator of the assertion, pulls the pin and bows out.


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## cbrunson (Oct 25, 2010)

RCR_III said:


> Is there a purpose to all the bickering and fighting over all this? Multiple pages. Multiple threads. One of which was shut down and restarted. It all seems a little personal to me and honestly doesn't really coincide with the purpose of this subforum.
> 
> I can understand the arguments behind the don't tell someone there's only one way to do something. Or this way or that was is detrimental to someone. I've been there I can agree on it all to a point. But, it's not a one size fits all shoe. Everyone has to adapt to methods that work for them.
> 
> ...


I have to agree. It's gone too far.


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

RCR_III said:


> Is there a purpose to all the bickering and fighting over all this? Multiple pages. Multiple threads. One of which was shut down and restarted. It all seems a little personal to me and honestly doesn't really coincide with the purpose of this subforum.
> 
> I can understand the arguments behind the don't tell someone there's only one way to do something. Or this way or that was is detrimental to someone. I've been there I can agree on it all to a point. But, it's not a one size fits all shoe. Everyone has to adapt to methods that work for them.
> 
> ...


Sent you a PM. As for this new...whatever :BangHead:


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

Any one ever set up a Poll? Griv's method given and Larry Wise's method given and people vote... Probably a General Archery Discussion thing though. One will rise to the top and the other go by the wayside. Sure as heck isn't going to go away here....


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## mike 66 (Jan 21, 2010)

i second this motion .....^^^^^^^^^


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## unclejane (Jul 22, 2012)

ron w said:


> I shoot my hinge by deliberately not moving my hand at the wrist and deliberately not shifting finger pressures on the release body. no manipulation, beyond what is produced by the swing of my elbow transferred to the release body with my forearm and hand acting as a monolithic lever attached to the release, no rotation through or at the wrist and no finger manipulation.
> typical of unfounded assertions, when evidence is requested, the originator of the assertion, pulls the pin and bows out.


I swear on a stack of bibles, I'm not lying or exaggerating - I just did 12 more shafts out of my Hoyt with my Honey Do doing exactly what ron w describes right here. Is it possible that there is some "expansion" of my hand going on? Yes, it's entirely possible and I keep watching for it when I do this experiment. But I promise: even with the Kung Fu Grip on my Honey Do, the movement of the arm alone is enough to rotate the hand and release in it to get it to fire. It's slightly firm, though only if I'm already into the wall a good bit when I release the safety. If not, it's actually pretty supple. It doesn't really even bother my bare shaft any more than using my pull-through release. The arrow goes where it's supposed to.

I'm as amazed as everyone else, since I used to think it was kind of bunk too. Till I read and tried it following exactly how to do it.

But I swear and I mean I swear it really does work. ron is not lying or telling a fib. *There is hand rotation* with no manipulation of the fingers; I can feel it moving even tho I'm maintaining pressure on all 3 fingers....

LS


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## RCR_III (Mar 19, 2011)

SonnyThomas said:


> Any one ever set up a Poll? Griv's method given and Larry Wise's method given and people vote... Probably a General Archery Discussion thing though. One will rise to the top and the other go by the wayside. Sure as heck isn't going to go away here....


I actually thought about doing a poll days ago.


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## unclejane (Jul 22, 2012)

I vote for a poll also. Tho I know how I'm gg to vote - all the methods discussed here seem to work, in my small experimental experience... So make sure we can multi-select LOL....

LS


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## RCR_III (Mar 19, 2011)

Maybe given the recent events Mahly will let us post up a poll regarding pure back tension, adding pressure with fingers, yielding index, yielding hand, relaxing, holding till the shot goes off, or whatever we want to put in it. Leave the thread closed to comments. Just a poll maybe. And let that be the end of it. And let everyone see how everyone shoots their release.


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## RCR_III (Mar 19, 2011)

unclejane said:


> I vote for a poll also. Tho I know how I'm gg to vote - all the methods discussed here seem to work, in my small experimental experience... So make sure we can multi-select LOL....
> 
> LS


It should be primary method only to get a good reading I would think.


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## Sasquech (Dec 15, 2014)

Laz you going to vegas or indoor nationals? I would love to meet you. 5 min on a practice string no bow needed I would have you convinced you might still not like it but you would understand


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## Sasquech (Dec 15, 2014)

I will gladly teach any of you how it works at either event pm me and we can settle it once and for all!


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## mike 66 (Jan 21, 2010)

that might get ULGY in the general archery forms . i would keep it here........if both parties can agree on the poll being the last say...:yield:


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## unclejane (Jul 22, 2012)

RCR_III said:


> It should be primary method only to get a good reading I would think.


Yeah I think you're right actually... I'm still "officially" back to my pull-through for remedial form work, but I think I may be able to honestly vote "pure" back tension at this point.

LS


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## Fury90flier (Jun 27, 2012)

if you'll quit calling it rotation you'll reduce the confusion here. The way the hing sear will strip has to do with a change in mechanical advantage form one side of the pivot point to the other. I'm not sure where this one finger issue came in to play but it wouldn't matter. If someone can hold the release tight enough to keep balanced leverage at anchor then squeeze---BT while maintaining that balance--- the sear will trip.

can I do it...doubtful with my current setup or any real accuracy--- requires too much tension in the hand.


Oh, and on pull-through...I'm really liking that method too (Stan Element)- but it requires too much "exact form" for me. Great training but I guess I'm not there yet...pull through for me is really a push to the target with the bow arm (relax the bowside and let it spring forward)--just "pull through" seems to not work so well.


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## erdman41 (May 6, 2009)

Poll is kinda useless unless you know what kinda scores the people are shooting. Might even find a correlation between the two.

Just remember
4 out of 5 agree the 5th ones an idiot.


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## unclejane (Jul 22, 2012)

Fury90flier said:


> Oh, and on pull-through...I'm really liking that method too (Stan Element)- but it requires too much "exact form" for me. Great training but I guess I'm not there yet...pull through for me is really a push to the target with the bow arm (relax the bowside and let it spring forward)--just "pull through" seems to not work so well.


Yep, just got a Stan Element to compliment my Evo (which isn't near as good as the Stan). I'm not finding any problems with using it, tho, even after getting tired. The only care you have to take is pressure at the wall when you release the safety and that's all I've observed. You can slop this a bit with a hinge, but with the pull-through, you have to take some care there, else you *will* get a true surprise release LOL. To be honest, it's otherwise almost identical to using my hinge. I love it, it's a fantastic release....

LS


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## bowfisher (Jan 21, 2003)

unclejane said:


> I swear on a stack of bibles, I'm not lying or exaggerating - I just did 12 more shafts out of my Hoyt with my Honey Do doing exactly what ron w describes right here. Is it possible that there is some "expansion" of my hand going on? Yes, it's entirely possible and I keep watching for it when I do this experiment. But I promise: even with the Kung Fu Grip on my Honey Do, the movement of the arm alone is enough to rotate the hand and release in it to get it to fire. It's slightly firm, though only if I'm already into the wall a good bit when I release the safety. If not, it's actually pretty supple. It doesn't really even bother my bare shaft any more than using my pull-through release. The arrow goes where it's supposed to.
> 
> I'm as amazed as everyone else, since I used to think it was kind of bunk too. Till I read and tried it following exactly how to do it.
> 
> ...


So by moving that elbow out of alignment are you getting into your face deeper and deeper until it goes off?


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## bowfisher (Jan 21, 2003)

On the poll, we would have to agree on how it is worded and I don't see that happening. :wink:


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## unclejane (Jul 22, 2012)

bowfisher said:


> So by moving that elbow out of alignment are you getting into your face deeper and deeper until it goes off?


Not that I can tell. I just baaarely touch the knuckles against the skin on the jawbone and I don't notice any increase in that at all, still virtually no face contact. It feels like a straight "expansion" backwards, just like I used to do with oly recurve. But there's clearly a "rotation" like motion going on even if I keep the Kung Fu Grip on the release....

LS


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## Mahly (Dec 18, 2002)

I am starting to wonder if some aren't more interested in proving someone is wrong, rather than being right.
As for a poll, we could ask who likes which engine the best, but not if PBT (pure back tension) is a myth.
It is not a myth, it's simple physics and geometry. 
PBT is real, and it works as a firing engine. I don't think it's the best, and have my reasons why. But to deny that moving the elbow to the back can not impart a rotation to the hinge is simply wrong.
If it doesn't work for you, fine. If it works for someone else, why would that bother you?


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## Topper1018 (Feb 19, 2013)

Id like to pose my own set of logical evidence to this idealistic melting pot. For several years I had hung up on the idea of keeping even pressure on all three fingers and squeezing the rhomboid muscles to create movement of the draw elbow and thus fire the hinge. YES, it does work. In fact, it works perfectly. In my basement with no pressure. In reality, it was an absolutley miserable way of shooting. Hundreds of hours on the blank bale and every other kind of shot training there is out there, only to find inconsistency in the shots when its really time to put up, say on the ASA courses I travel many many hours to attend. Situational pressure changes people without icewater in their veins. Recent exposure of more pros and how they fire thier hinge has led me down a new path, one that gets me more comfortable in the aim. I spend more time enjoying my shot and less time miserably trying to rip the wheels off. Im not hauling on it with my fingers or overly manipulating the release but actually allowing myself to find the balance between maintaining back tension and transfering the weight around my middle finger, which i would now say holds more weight on the draw than my index finger. Feeling the pressure move in my hand and allowing both shoulders to totally relax transfers over to much more acceptable aim when its time to actually put up and real pressure is on. A better aim allows for a cleaner transition to firing sequence, then to follow thru. End result...Better quality shots and a more enjoyable experience!
I think the major lesson here is not to be tied down to the pure back tension method and allowing shooters to explore in their execution process. For me, Levi has really smashed down the barrier. A stubborn individual that I am, the information has been around a while (Im going to use Padget as a good example, my thanks sir. I should have let the knowledge sink in sooner) i had just been hung up on only firing my hinge with pure back tension.

While I dont agree pure back tension is a myth, I do agree some of the hard heads hung up on it need open their eyes a little. No one is asking you to change, only to understand.


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## unclejane (Jul 22, 2012)

That's a good point, I'm going to bring my hinge to the local group shoot tomorrow evening and put some "heat" on my latest discovery. That'll put my money where my mouth is. It's not for a score, but it's still shooting with a group with a little pressure on. It's enough to make me break down if I'm not concentrating, anyway. 
Course, I'll take my Stan too if I turn out wrong... 

LS


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## Fury90flier (Jun 27, 2012)

unclejane said:


> Yep, just got a Stan Element to compliment my Evo (which isn't near as good as the Stan). I'm not finding any problems with using it, tho, even after getting tired. The only care you have to take is pressure at the wall when you release the safety and that's all I've observed. You can slop this a bit with a hinge, but with the pull-through, you have to take some care there, else you *will* get a true surprise release LOL. To be honest, it's otherwise almost identical to using my hinge. I love it, it's a fantastic release....
> 
> LS


No kidding on true surprise...if it's set too hot. Then there is the other side---pull, pull, pull "when is this going off"


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## unclejane (Jul 22, 2012)

Fury90flier said:


> No kidding on true surprise...if it's set too hot. Then there is the other side---pull, pull, pull "when is this going off"


Truth is, I only encountered that once or twice and it was when I was pretty tired. It definitely catches inconsistencies in your pressure at the back wall, even with my Hoyt wheel bow where the wall is 100miles of jello. And of course if you "yaw" the handle in between shots, it'll be rather unforgiving. So it's really excellent about enforcing consistency, IMO....

But I shot it all day sat and sunday with two different bows and it was like a hinge just without the hinge lol...

LS


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## Sasquech (Dec 15, 2014)

Mmm no takers?


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## EPLC (May 21, 2002)

SonnyThomas said:


> Any one ever set up a Poll? Griv's method given and Larry Wise's method given and people vote... Probably a General Archery Discussion thing though. One will rise to the top and the other go by the wayside. Sure as heck isn't going to go away here....


A poll would be interesting but there's one serious problem with the poll idea and that's the definition of Myth. I'm sure you'll get a lot of low to mid-level shooters swearing that BT is the way to go, especially in the General Forum. Unfortunately, that doesn't prove anything as I'm sure there are many still indoctrinated with this belief that struggle but continue to hang on to it. I remember when I was in my indoctrinated state, I would have voted in your favor as well. A better poll would be of those that are 300 Vegas shooters (or very close), not the average to intermediate shooters that really don't have a lick of actual high level experience to draw from. 

There was a time that the world was believed to be flat by the masses... 

*myth: an idea or story that is believed by many people but that is not true ~ Merriam-Webster *


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## EPLC (May 21, 2002)

Topper1018 said:


> Id like to pose my own set of logical evidence to this idealistic melting pot. For several years I had hung up on the idea of keeping even pressure on all three fingers and squeezing the rhomboid muscles to create movement of the draw elbow and thus fire the hinge. YES, it does work. In fact, it works perfectly. In my basement with no pressure. In reality, it was an absolutley miserable way of shooting. Hundreds of hours on the blank bale and every other kind of shot training there is out there, only to find inconsistency in the shots when its really time to put up, say on the ASA courses I travel many many hours to attend. Situational pressure changes people without icewater in their veins. Recent exposure of more pros and how they fire thier hinge has led me down a new path, one that gets me more comfortable in the aim. I spend more time enjoying my shot and less time miserably trying to rip the wheels off. Im not hauling on it with my fingers or overly manipulating the release but actually allowing myself to find the balance between maintaining back tension and transfering the weight around my middle finger, which i would now say holds more weight on the draw than my index finger. Feeling the pressure move in my hand and allowing both shoulders to totally relax transfers over to much more acceptable aim when its time to actually put up and real pressure is on. A better aim allows for a cleaner transition to firing sequence, then to follow thru. End result...Better quality shots and a more enjoyable experience!
> I think the major lesson here is not to be tied down to the pure back tension method and allowing shooters to explore in their execution process. For me, Levi has really smashed down the barrier. A stubborn individual that I am, the information has been around a while (Im going to use Padget as a good example, my thanks sir. I should have let the knowledge sink in sooner) i had just been hung up on only firing my hinge with pure back tension.
> 
> While I dont agree pure back tension is a myth, I do agree some of the hard heads hung up on it need open their eyes a little. No one is asking you to change, only to understand.


The sense of reason has spoken :thumbs_up Topper1018 could not have told my story better if he were my twin.


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## field14 (May 21, 2002)

I'm familiar with both. I started shooting releases when the only thing we had were vertical and/or horizontal ledges. The hinges were still 4 years into the future. Rope spikes came before the hinges, and sear triggers or plunger triggers came along after Mel Stanislawski invented the hinge or trip gate release. Been shooting a hinge off and on and off and on since 1974.

So, With my intimate familiarity with the ledge, the rope spike, and the hinge, BOTH GRIV and Larry Wise are saying the same things...but it is nearly all "semantics" and wording. The biomechanics and physics are the same; hasn't changed since the days of the ledges.
Polls? Again semantics. The thing is that you must maintain the tension, you must relax the forearm and the release hand and you must get some really miniscule amount of rotation "transferred" to the handle of the release to get it to rotate! Wristing it off is NOT the finesse technique that will be consistently effective, squeezing hard with your fingers will not only tighten your fingers, but tightens the forearm, making consitency next to impossible to achieve.
The hinge is called a "back tension" release, and that is a bunch of hooey, it is a hinge and shot with "back tension", but correctly shooting any release aid consistently requires "back tension"...NOT arm tension, not release hand tension, no squeezing the life out of the release handle tension, not shoving the bowarm forward tension, not wristing it off tension.
The biomechanics are simple, the laws of physics are undeniable and cannot be "broken."

GRIV and Larry are great instructors, and what they both are saying is CORRECT, and is really the same thing, but put into different words and shown with a different structure...but neither are denying the laws of physics and biomechanics required to properly execute a shot with "back tension."
The hinge release is a finesse release, and the beauty of it is that it does NOT have to be "fired" in quite so tight of a window as a sear-trigger style release aid. Your shot time window, if you are using a good and consistent to anchor draw length and body positioning is a few seconds longer with a hinge that it is with a trigger, because those that are good with a hinge won't even begin to think "punch it", because they know from experience that cheating a hinge release will normally result in a miss.
Why the heck to you think so many great shooters and upper echelon shooters will "train" with a hinge and for a short term (one or two round tournament) shoot a trigger? Then, they are back on the hinge to get rid of the punchitis they quickly develop with a trigger cuz they know they can "dump it" or "Trigger it" and get away with it for the SHORT TERM.

So, IMHO a poll would be a waste of time because you are only dealing with semantics and words and avoiding the biomechanics and laws of physics.
If the shot is NOT a surprise when it trips, you are NOT shooting or executing that/those shots with "Proper Back Tension" regardless of the type of release you are using...be it a ledge, a rope spike, a hinge, a single sear, a double sear, or any sort of wrist strap release.
ALL releases aids can be shot with "proper back tension" and each one just takes the time to develop the finesse to shoot so that they release trips by surprise, not by cheating it or punching it to dump the shot and get it over with.

field14 (Tom D.)


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## Topper1018 (Feb 19, 2013)

My only hope is more shooters read of our experience and allow themselves to explore and grow as we have.


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## unclejane (Jul 22, 2012)

EPLC said:


> A poll would be interesting but there's one serious problem with the poll idea and that's the definition of Myth. I'm sure you'll get a lot of low to mid-level shooters swearing that BT is the way to go, especially in the General Forum. Unfortunately, that doesn't prove anything as I'm sure there are many still indoctrinated with this belief that struggle but continue to hang on to it. I remember when I was in my indoctrinated state, I would have voted in your favor as well. A better poll would be of those that are 300 Vegas shooters (or very close), not the average to intermediate shooters that really don't have a lick of actual high level experience to draw from.


Unfortunately, that would do nothing either way to establish PBT as a myth. That would be an attempt to argue a fallacy known as the argument from popularity. Look it up. 


> There was a time that the world was believed to be flat by the masses...


But that belief was eventually shown to be unfounded by the advancement of our methods of scientific investigation of nature, in particular the configuration of our planet. The belief dissipated later accordingly.


> *myth: an idea or story that is believed by many people but that is not true ~ Merriam-Webster *


But PBT is true; it does work - I can even demonstrate it myself.

LS


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## cbrunson (Oct 25, 2010)

erdman41 said:


> Poll is kinda useless unless you know what kinda scores the people are shooting. Might even find a correlation between the two.
> 
> Just remember
> 4 out of 5 agree the 5th ones an idiot.


This. ^^^^

If you have four guys that can't shoot at the same level as the fifth guy, and all four agree that the fifth guy does it wrong, even though he smokes them, what value are their opinions?


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## field14 (May 21, 2002)

My wife puts it best, "What the heck is the big problem? Pull back the bow, anchor, center the site up and keep pulling so the site steadies and let 'er rip!"
IF the site is steadied, you have "proper alignment and "back tension"...so execute the shot and let it happen without you fanagling extra input by wristing, tightening up, and over thinking the shot! If you are thinking release...you are NOT executing with back tension, and you sure as heck aren't aiming. Cannot do two things at the same time, let alone 3 of 9.
So, when you get that site to steady or swim in a small area of the middle (letting it "float"), you've got it right...so execute. and repeat that same feeling on the next shot.
Thinking about that hang nail ain't gonna cut it.
field14 (Tom D.)


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## Blue X (Dec 22, 2007)

I am interested in the where abouts of this Boone and Crockett squirrel!

Blue X


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## EPLC (May 21, 2002)

Mahly said:


> I am starting to wonder if some aren't more interested in proving someone is wrong, rather than being right.
> As for a poll, we could ask who likes which engine the best, but not if PBT (pure back tension) is a myth.
> It is not a myth, it's simple physics and geometry.
> PBT is real, and it works as a firing engine. I don't think it's the best, and have my reasons why. But to deny that moving the elbow to the back can not impart a rotation to the hinge is simply wrong.
> If it doesn't work for you, fine. If it works for someone else, why would that bother you?


Great post but a myth does not necessarily have to have any connection as to whether or not the method can or can not actually be done. Sometimes the myth can be as simple as distorting something to fit an agenda, sell a product or simply promote an idea, sometimes not the best idea either. Individual opinions, when positioned as "facts" can easily evolve into "Myths" if enough people can be indoctrinated. I believe this is the case with what has happened with the phrase "Back Tension"... I firmly believe the phrase "Back Tension" evolved from a description of how to draw and hold a bow to a method of execution, a method that many find either difficult to master or impossible to implement but was promoted quite well... so well that many have gone through long periods of feeling failure because they could not master this "miracle" - Back Tension. I also believe there are many that will swear that they are not "cheating the hinge" when they are in fact using more hand manipulation then they are aware of.

I had a business partner that was a master salesman. He was a genius at picking out certain words or phrases from our clients presentations or talks and sell them back to them masterfully. I'm sure he could have done wonders with the phrase "Back Tension".


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## cbrunson (Oct 25, 2010)

field14 said:


> My wife puts it best, "What the heck is the big problem? Pull back the bow, anchor, center the site up and keep pulling so the site steadies and let 'er rip!"
> IF the site is steadied, you have "proper alignment and "back tension"...so execute the shot and let it happen without you fanagling extra input by wristing, tightening up, and over thinking the shot! If you are thinking release...you are NOT executing with back tension, and you sure as heck aren't aiming. Cannot do two things at the same time, let alone 3 of 9.
> So, when you get that site to steady or swim in a small area of the middle (letting it "float"), you've got it right...so execute. and repeat that same feeling on the next shot.
> Thinking about that hang nail ain't gonna cut it.
> field14 (Tom D.)


I feel the same way about logging my progress. If I'm winning, I get paid. If not, I need to shoot better.


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## unclejane (Jul 22, 2012)

EPLC said:


> Individual opinions, when positioned as "facts" can easily evolve into "Myths" if enough people can be indoctrinated.


Inapplicable. The PBT method of shooting a hinge is not an opinion. It's a method that can be actually demonstrated to work. ron w and others have described this method; that's not "indoctrination", it's a presentation of a fact, a real-world method.



> I believe this is the case with what has happened with the phrase "Back Tension"... I firmly believe the phrase "Back Tension" evolved from a description of how to draw and hold a bow to a method of execution, a method that many find either difficult to master or impossible to implement but was promoted quite well... so well that many have gone through long periods of feeling failure because they could not master this "miracle" - Back Tension.


That this method simply didn't work for you does not establish that it's a myth. It means only that it doesn't work for you and that's all.



> I also believe there are many that will swear that they are not "cheating the hinge" when they are in fact using more hand manipulation then they are aware of.


I agree (tho I don't think of it as "cheating the hinge", tho ron may have referred to it that way); this is a distinct possibility. But I don't think that's true in all cases.

LS


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## EPLC (May 21, 2002)

field14 said:


> I'm familiar with both. I started shooting releases when the only thing we had were vertical and/or horizontal ledges. The hinges were still 4 years into the future. Rope spikes came before the hinges, and sear triggers or plunger triggers came along after Mel Stanislawski invented the hinge or trip gate release. Been shooting a hinge off and on and off and on since 1974.
> 
> So, With my intimate familiarity with the ledge, the rope spike, and the hinge, BOTH GRIV and Larry Wise are saying the same things...but it is nearly all "semantics" and wording. The biomechanics and physics are the same; hasn't changed since the days of the ledges.
> Polls? Again semantics. The thing is that you must maintain the tension, you must relax the forearm and the release hand and you must get some really miniscule amount of rotation "transferred" to the handle of the release to get it to rotate! Wristing it off is NOT the finesse technique that will be consistently effective, squeezing hard with your fingers will not only tighten your fingers, but tightens the forearm, making consitency next to impossible to achieve.
> ...


Sorry Tom, while there may be similarities, they are not saying the same thing. Specifically, one is saying to use a rigid and static hand and the other is saying to relax the hand to execute. GRIV told me specifically that BT was too difficult to use in many conditions and I shouldn't worry about it. This is a very distinct difference, which in fact is the main reason we have been jousting over this for months. Not only are these two saying different things, but so are most of today's top shooters, most of which fall into the GRIV camp. Levi Morgan actually mocked the Larry Wise method in the talk he just gave at Lancaster. The tape is on here, perhaps you should take a peek at it.


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## bowfisher (Jan 21, 2003)

Topper1018 said:


> My only hope is more shooters read of our experience and allow themselves to explore and grow as we have.


:thumbs_up


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## subconsciously (Aug 22, 2009)

.


field14 said:


> I'm familiar with both. I started shooting releases when the only thing we had were vertical and/or horizontal ledges. The hinges were still 4 years into the future. Rope spikes came before the hinges, and sear triggers or plunger triggers came along after Mel Stanislawski invented the hinge or trip gate release. Been shooting a hinge off and on and off and on since 1974.
> 
> So, With my intimate familiarity with the ledge, the rope spike, and the hinge, BOTH GRIV and Larry Wise are saying the same things...but it is nearly all "semantics" and wording. The biomechanics and physics are the same; hasn't changed since the days of the ledges.
> Polls? Again semantics. The thing is that you must maintain the tension, you must relax the forearm and the release hand and you must get some really miniscule amount of rotation "transferred" to the handle of the release to get it to rotate! Wristing it off is NOT the finesse technique that will be consistently effective, squeezing hard with your fingers will not only tighten your fingers, but tightens the forearm, making consitency next to impossible to achieve.
> ...


Very well put Tom. I agree 100%.


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## field14 (May 21, 2002)

EPLC said:


> Sorry Tom, while there may be similarities, they are not saying the same thing. Specifically, one is saying to used a rigid and static hand and the other is saying to relax the hand to execute. This is a very distinct difference, which in fact is the main reason we have been jousting over this for months. Not only are these two saying different things, but so are most of today's top shooters, most of which fall into the GRIV camp. Levi Morgan actually mocked the Larry Wise method in the talk he just gave at Lancaster. The tape is on here, perhaps you should take a peek at it.


Where they ARE executing the shot the same with either GRIV or Larry Wise IS the "biomechanics" and the physics involved...and that sure as heck IS executing the shot with "proper back tension"....you will NOT hold the site steady with hand and forearm and upper arm tension...that is engaging too many large muscle groups.
This has to biomechanically come from the rhomboids and Latissimus dorsi muscles and the levator scaulae and NOT from the hand, and forearm.
So, while GRIV and the others say they are tightening up the hand, yes...but you fail to mention that Larry says that you cannot LOSE CONTACT with the handle of the release either...so...you have to stay engaged with the hand on the release handle..so he proposes Relaxing (but NOT disengaging) the fingers and hand and the forearm...but NOT having them tightene up like a drum.
Many say they are "static" and they are Static...and static means MAINTAINING the "tension", and physically, maintaining the tension means that to stay there, you must apply energy to hold it there, which is "increasing" tension to remain static. Energy can be changed from one form to another, but cannot be created nor destroyed." To get energy, you gotta USE energy...it has to balance...for every reaction, there is an equal and opposite reaction.

Semantics once again, and I stand by my statement that they are saying the same thing, applying the same principles, but using a different manner to describe it and trying to make it simpler for today's "shooters" to understand.

If you don't have some sort of "transfer" to the rhomboids, the lattisimus dorsi, and levator scapulae, then you aren't going to achieve the "static" (actually increasing tension to "maintain" a static position) and you are going to wobble all over the target as you tighten up more of the wrong larger muscles and abandon the FEW that are needed to execute the shot.
Shooting a hinge is a finesse operation with a long learning curve...and again...the Pros practice it so that they rarely get it wrong...the beginners and mid level and "mere mortals" are still practicing trying to get it right.
field14 (Tom D.)


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## EPLC (May 21, 2002)

Sorry Tom, but they and many others are not on the same page as the Larry Wise method. You can try to twist it with "biomechanics" or any other catch phrase you want but I'm done with the indoctrination that you and others have been pounding us with for years on here. You can have your way, I'm not trying to take it away. Go for it. But don't try and lump several different variations of firing a hinge into your neat little narrow, "they are all saying the same thing" twisting of the facts. They are not all saying the same thing, and for the most part they are not even in agreement with your very narrow view of this process.


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## Mahly (Dec 18, 2002)

Is there anyone here who feels his side of the story hasn't been told?
EVERYONE is entitled to their own opinions.
Everyone is entitled to believe whomever they wish to believe.
I think the cases have been made.
Clearly there is no ONE universal method to firing a hinge effectively.
Be it PBT, manipulation, or a combination.
We have several posts going the same way with the same arguments.
Feel free to say what works for YOU (and/or anyone you coach). Feel free to say who agrees with you.
Let's avoid trying to tell others they are wrong, be it by their technique or by who they quote.
We've been there, and done that.


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## field14 (May 21, 2002)

BOTH GRIV and Larry's method have to have the STATIC part of it in order to work...if you don't "increase" the energy applied to hold it, you cannot hold it. The more muscles you use...the worse it gets....and the quicker you run out of that energy or air or both, haha.
You wanna really learn quickly what REAL "transfer of back tension" is? It is so simple...even Larry Wise was surprised about this when he and I used it in a seminar. A different way of teaching the HOW about "transfer" instead of the "What" and then try to get them to do the WHAT without knowing HOW it feels!
Simple. Take a recurved bow of 25-30# @28" AMO. Tie a d-loop onto the string. Get up close to the bale. Make sure you have a bow sling. Use YOUR release...doesn't have to be a hinge. Draw back the bow to your full draw position.
YES! you are going to shake! Why? because you will, even on the first shot feel a huge change in tension...because you now will be forced to transfer the tension from your release hand and forearm...into the Rhomboids, Latissimus dorsi, and levator scapulae...OR you will NOT be able to maintain the full draw position.
As you execute the first couple of shakey shots...unless you punch off the release, you are going to also experience an explosion of which you have likely not seen the likes of since you went to a high letoff compound bow!
After about 5-10 shots, you will KNOW exactly what TRANSFER feels like. You will have learned which muscle(s) it takes to hold back a bow at full draw correctly, and you will have had the wits scared out of you from the explosion off that release.
You aint going to "fake" an explosive release off a recurved bow like many do with their compounds!
Larry and I were able to teach the HOW of the transfer in less than 15 minutes using this lesson plan and method.

I even demonstrated the use of a ledge-style and rope spike release and asked for any brave souls that wanted to try them...and a couple did do so...and much to their "surprise" they exploded off the ledge unbelievably well, and found out that the rope-spikes aren't so bad either!

You simply aren't going to DEFY the biomechanics and you positively are NOT going to defy the laws of energy and motion...guaranteed...even though some archers are thinking they can do just that! Cannot and will not happen! If you aren't properly engaged at the BACK END you are not going to hold the sight steady enough to execute a decent shot.
To be static...you have to increase the amount of tension to maintain that same level of tension...and when it varies even slgihtly, the movement will increase, period...cannot be any other way.
So many people interpret "relax" as in "letting go" of something. That is NOT the case. It is allowing the correct muscles to take over their load...as in "the transfer" mentioned above. If your forearm and hand is tight, you aren't engaging the correct muscle groups and when that isn't done correctly, sooner or later it catches up to you!

But that is OK...people will do whatever they will do...just be thankful for your higher letoff bows is all, because those can be held with the arms...but sooner or later....that arm and hand holding routine and misinterpretation of "relax" will up and bite you just as it has so many thousands of other shooters...and yes, it includes me, too! Been there and done that many times over the years. Only get away with bad things for so long and they will bite you in the arse sooner or later...most sooner rather than later.
Just like how stupid your parents were when you were a teenager and into your earlier years of having children of your own...then suddenly you find out your parents really were quite smart...and EXPERIENCED and knew before you did what you were going to try to pull of next!
field14 (Tom D.)

field14 (Tom D.)


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## field14 (May 21, 2002)

EPLC, that is NOT my way of doing things. I'm stressing that GRIV and Larry are saying the same thing but in a different manner.
In addition, they BOTH are saying that you have to achieve and MAINTAIN that transfer in your back and keep it static and RELAX.
By relax, neither of them are saying "let go of anything."
In addition, what I say about "The PROS practicing until they cannot get it wrong and the beginners, mid level and a lot of high echelon archers are still practicing trying to get it right" is an old connotation from the likes of Al Henderson, Freddie Troncoso, Dean Pridgen, and other archers that achieved more in their careers than ANY of today's Pros have thus far in their careers.
I didn't invent that comment either...
So "Tom's this and Tom's that...??" Nope not at all.
I believe that You just don't get it because you have the tunnel vision thinking that there are a thousand ways of getting this done...when it comes down to really only a few and today's coaches are trying to put it down in different words, methods, and "programs" to achieve the same goal. That is all.

PRACTICE UNTIL YOU CANNOT GET IT WRONG (at least not very often, that is). If the sight isn't sitting still....YOU are not in line, you are NOT static at the back end, you are NOT balanced, and you are NOT executing that shot with proper "back tension", you are forcing it.

field14 (Tom D.)


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## unclejane (Jul 22, 2012)

Interesting. My dirty little secret is, I first used my Evo on my oly recurve with a quick/dirty D loop on it. That was my first ever set of surprise releases.... My compound was still on order and it was the only bow I had to try the release with, so thought what the heck. I can definitely vouch for an explosive release with even a 20# recurve.

LS


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## ride394 (Oct 16, 2006)

Tom, your input is valued and refreshing to this topic. I'd highly suggest you don't jump down EPLC's rabbit hole on this one though. You've done an awesome job at clearing things up for those of us with an open mind, but if you keep going you're just pissing in the wind.

By the way, I had your book on my Christmas list, but I guess my wife didn't think it was that important lol. I'll be purchasing a copy soon!


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## Mahly (Dec 18, 2002)

Field 14,

Just for absolute clarity, do you feel you can maintain that transfer, but still manipulate the hinge either by relaxing the hand and letting it stretch, or by rotating the hinge with other fingers?


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## field14 (May 21, 2002)

Mahly said:


> Field 14,
> 
> Just for absolute clarity, do you feel you can maintain that transfer, but still manipulate the hinge either by relaxing the hand and letting it stretch, or by rotating the hinge with other fingers?


Yes. However, you "must" maintain that transfer and not give up on it, even for an instant (that is what is meant by being "static").
People think the release body has to rotate a ton to get it to trip, but in reality, it isn't much at all, when done properly by relaxing. I don't like the term "rotating the release body (not rotating the hinge, really) with other fingers. I prefer to say Taking up the slack and "maintaining that take up" while the transfer is complete so that relaxing the hand and forearm allows the proper muscles to accomplish the final task of tripping the release aid.
You must have contact with that release handle with at least the middle finger and the 4th finger, but the middle finger does most of that work. If you don't take up the slack with that middle (and 4th) fingers then you don't have contact, and it is impossible for the release body to rotate...I call this "playing trigger tag" because you are letting up, while you think you are pulling, but you are getting nowhere..."playing tag."
IMHO that is where people get so hung up in this "relax" being interpreted as letting go. Many have never learned HOW to complete the transfer and are holding the bow at full draw with their release hand and elbow which are tightened up like a mainspring and then wondering why the sight won't sit still or that they fatigue so quickly.
You quickly pick up on these that are armers...because their elbow barely moves when the release trips, and also often times their release hand comes out and away from their jaw line instead of straight back and the elbow coming down and back. You will see them exaggerate this by an arm/elbow movement back...as the arrow hits the target (fake explosion).
The more arm and hand tension, the less "recoil" or "explosion" they have off the release, and the less consistent they are with it. The wristers have some forward motion as the release trips...and their release hand also comes out straight away from their face, much like a "plucker" in the days of finger tabs, hahaha.

You will also find that "most" of the really top guns have a holding weight between 18 and 25 pounds, with many in the 20-22 pound range. If you listen to Chance Beaubouef, I think he says he prefers holding weight at about 21 or 22 pounds. Why? Because it is EASIER to complete the transfer and it is EASIER to feel the transfer and to MAINTAIN that transfer than it is with lower holding weight.
Now, SOME have the lower holding weight initially, but pull super HARD into the wall or by the use of limb stops, they pull super hard and tight up against those.
However, take note that their to anchor draw length is controlled to the n-th degree...because for a hard stop bow, 1 millimeter of increase or decrease against those stops is 1 pound of "holding weight" and one more pound or one less pound of thrust given to the arrow! Imagine trying to shoot a Baby-x if one time you have it held at 21 pounds, then the next shot is at 22 pounds, then the next at 20 pounds...ain't happenin' folks.
They practice and set that DL until they cannot get it wrong!

Google ProActive Archery, you'll find it. There are Chapters in the book concerning Hard stops NOT necessarily being "hard Stops" and the data are clear on that account, too.

It would be interesting to know just how long and how many times some of you have been face to face and in touch with Larry Wise and how and what he teaches???? Tell me, please? Have you simply "read" what he says and gotten your interpretation from this?
So, personally, I've set up 4 Larry Wise Core Archery Academies in this area, and have worked directly with Larry and even set up and written additional lesson plans with Larry and team taught with him on 3 of those occasions. Prior to that, Larry and I had numerous conversations about this and other "stuff". Plus, I also got my USA Archery Certifications through Level III with Larry. I know his teaching style, I know his methods, and I also know that he teaches to his AUDIENCE and not "the book." Both he and I were licensed and Certified High School instructors. Larry in Math, and me in Biology, Earth Science, and French. Teaching was our livelihoods, so we know to plan and to teach to the audience.
Anyways, having witnessed what and how Larry teaches and what he says...first hand and numerous times......Enough said.
I'm done...there is no "real argument" about this at all.
It comes right down to the SAME THING and that is "executing the shot with proper back tension", period. That is it in a nutshell. GRIV and Larry are striving for their students to arrive at that same exact outcome...again..."Executing THIS shot with proper back tension." KISS. 

field14 (Tom D.)


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## EPLC (May 21, 2002)

field14 said:


> EPLC, that is NOT my way of doing things. I'm stressing that GRIV and Larry are saying the same thing but in a different manner.
> In addition, they BOTH are saying that you have to achieve and MAINTAIN that transfer in your back and keep it static and RELAX.
> By relax, neither of them are saying "let go of anything."
> In addition, what I say about "The PROS practicing until they cannot get it wrong and the beginners, mid level and a lot of high echelon archers are still practicing trying to get it right" is an old connotation from the likes of Al Henderson, Freddie Troncoso, Dean Pridgen, and other archers that achieved more in their careers than ANY of today's Pros have thus far in their careers.
> ...



No disrespect intended but you are mistaken about them all saying the same thing, just differently. They are not saying the same thing at all. There are very distinct differences that do not include things such as "cheating the hinge". In fact many are recommending hand manipulation, either by relaxing the index or pulling with the ring/middle fingers, or a combination of both to get the needed rotation to execute.
While you have all the right to disagree with their variations, you are very mistaken if you think they are in agreement with your method.


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## ride394 (Oct 16, 2006)

EPLC I have a question for you. While you're relaxing your index finger/hand what are your back muscles doing?


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## jwilson48 (Apr 1, 2009)

I don't mean disrespect either, but it is close minded to think someone can't achieve back tension and use finger manipulation both. Levi Morgan is probably the best shooter in the world. He said he squeezes with his fingers and said all the pros he knows of use some sort of hand manipulation to fire their hinge or thumb release. For now, I'll stick to what is working for me.


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## EPLC (May 21, 2002)

ride394 said:


> EPLC I have a question for you. While you're relaxing your index finger/hand what are your back muscles doing?


They are maintaining the hold. I draw my bow using the Alistair Whittingham method of closing the elbow. This loads my rhomboids. I keep them loaded as I relax my thumb and index until the shot breaks. For me, this method works, produces a smoother shot and a manageable float.


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## Mahly (Dec 18, 2002)

OK, so we are kind of splitting hairs in a way.
Back tension should be maintained to execute the shot, however, one can manipulate the release either by taking up the slack (Sounds similar to pull and squeeze) or by yielding (the index, not the middle finger, or the rest).
In THAT sense, yes, Larry and GRIV seem to be saying the same things. One should maintain back tension throughout the shot (execution).
The only real difference is that the quotes we have heard from Larry, seem to say that there should be no yielding, squeezing, or taking up of slack. If he teaches differently we don't have that information. 

So in the end, we have numerous people here, that seem to be on different sides of the fence, that are closer than it may seem.
We have back tension AND hand movement during the execution of the shot....win win.
And again, I'm not saying back tension and NO hand movement can't/don't work, just works better for some than others.


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

field14 said:


> My wife puts it best, "What the heck is the big problem? Pull back the bow, anchor, center the site up and keep pulling so the site steadies and let 'er rip!"
> IF the site is steadied, you have "proper alignment and "back tension"...so execute the shot and let it happen without you fanagling extra input by wristing, tightening up, and over thinking the shot! If you are thinking release...you are NOT executing with back tension, and you sure as heck aren't aiming. Cannot do two things at the same time, let alone 3 of 9.
> So, when you get that site to steady or swim in a small area of the middle (letting it "float"), you've got it right...so execute. and repeat that same feeling on the next shot.
> Thinking about that hang nail ain't gonna cut it.
> field14 (Tom D.)


unclejane, where are you? Haul back and shoot


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

Mahly said:


> I am starting to wonder if some aren't more interested in proving someone is wrong, rather than being right.
> As for a poll, we could ask who likes which engine the best, but not if PBT (pure back tension) is a myth.
> It is not a myth, it's simple physics and geometry.
> PBT is real, and it works as a firing engine. I don't think it's the best, and have my reasons why. But to deny that moving the elbow to the back can not impart a rotation to the hinge is simply wrong.
> If it doesn't work for you, fine. If it works for someone else, why would that bother you?


Well, I consider it another attempt of trying to shove the "others means" method down someone's throat...Probably should have stopped the Post dead in it's tracks... Still, field14 came forward....and then he gets put down. I just copied everything he put forth. Damn good information to have on-hand. 
Some one posts and just has to get slammed. BS! Evidently we're not to have a opinion, least wise not post it. "Ignore" doesn't get it. Ignore does not blank a quote.


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

cbrunson said:


> This. ^^^^
> 
> If you have four guys that can't shoot at the same level as the fifth guy, and all four agree that the fifth guy does it wrong, even though he smokes them, what value are their opinions?


Another good point.....


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

mike 66 said:


> that might get ULGY in the general archery forms . i would keep it here........if both parties can agree on the poll being the last say...:yield:


You think it won't get ugly here?


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## sharkred7 (Jul 19, 2005)

I can't believe I just wasted 10 minutes of my life reading this:icon_1_lol:

Add my method to the poll. I don't know how my release works:wink:

I just haul my string back till I hit my clicker and hold it with my back and aim until the shot goes off. Don't know or care how it happens I just trust that it will and it does.

Uh Oh!!! I said I use a clicker, there goes another whole can of worms:mg:

John


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## Lazarus (Sep 19, 2005)

Blue X said:


> I am interested in the where abouts of this Boone and Crockett squirrel!
> 
> Blue X


So is he....that's why he doesn't practice with his bow enough.


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## Lazarus (Sep 19, 2005)

erdman41 said:


> Just remember
> 4 out of 5 agree the 5th ones an idiot.


I hate to be cynical, but in archery it's more likely that the four that agree don't know, and the one that disagrees actually knows what he's talking about. 

But your ratio could be a little off. It's probably more like 400:1 instead of 4:1. :teeth:


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## erdman41 (May 6, 2009)

Lazarus said:


> I hate to be cynical, but in archery it's more likely that the four that agree don't know, and the one that disagrees actually knows what he's talking about.
> 
> But your ratio could be a little off. It's probably more like 400:1 instead of 4:1. :teeth:


Yup that is what I was getting at.

Your ratio might even be a bit low or at least it would seem that way at the local shop I shoot at.


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## ron w (Jan 5, 2013)

bowfisher said:


> So by moving that elbow out of alignment are you getting into your face deeper and deeper until it goes off?


bow fisher, 
what you don't understand, is that the reason it works is because draw length has to set to a point where you start your swing with the elbow ever so slightly outside the aligned position and then as your elbow swings in, the break happens when the elbow is aligned with the shot. it is the reason draw length is so critical with this method of release execution. critical to the point that a twist or two of the bow string makes the difference between working to get the shot off and having the shot break with very little effort.
you are not digging your release hand further into your face, or anything like that.
consider,..... if you were to attach a 20 inch long stick to the release, that represented your hand and fore arm. with the release on the loop and at full draw, all it would take is a small amount or swing of the stickis free end, to make the release rotate enough to break the sear and the shot is gone. now consider that that free end of the sick is your elbow, that is also connected to your upper arm, which is connected to your scapula. as you contract your rhomboid, your scapula pulls your upper arm towards the center of your body, which in turn swings your elbow inward towards the center of your back pivoting at your shoulder like a lever. that lever, being the stick attached to the release, transfers the swing into rotation at the release body.
the key is to have your forearm, hand and fingers relaxed, except for the amount of tension required to keep the release in your hand, so that all the tendons that essentially meet at the elbow, in the forearm, act as ropes that are stretched out tight between your grip on the release and your elbow. with those tendons stretched out tightly, any movement (swing) of your elbow, is going to produce rotation at your hand.....that rotation is transferred to the release body that pivots on the bail pin of the release and breaks the sear.
it's simple bio-mechanics whose process is constructed around our anatomy.
as far as a pole goes, it would prove nothing, other than the number of people who manipulate a hinge compared to those who don't.... and all the would exhibit, is the number of people who find rotational back tension too hard to accomplish, or prefer not to attempt learning it.....which neither provides proof that it exists, nor proof that it doesn't exist.


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## ron w (Jan 5, 2013)

EPLC said:


> They are maintaining the hold. I draw my bow using the Alistair Whittingham method of closing the elbow. This loads my rhomboids. I keep them loaded as I relax my thumb and index until the shot breaks. For me, this method works, produces a smoother shot and a manageable float.


 I can close my elbow completely....forceably, until my elbow hurts, and not put my rhomboids under any stress what so ever and maintain that closed elbow stress, but still move my upper arm all over the place....so closing your elbow, has nothing at all to do with putting your rhomboids under tension.


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

ron, I believe you're on track. The release arm has to be positioned so a proper pivot point is established. Bernie P hits on this. Release arm up, elbow more aligned to the power stroke of the bow string/arrow the should then works like it's suppose to, like a ball joint, swivel. Release arm low and usually elbow slightly to too much out, back tension is increased to make the hinge fire and what happen is stress, muscle fatigue and forcing the ball into the socket instead of it allowing it the release arm swing.

Have I said it before? If not, no bow needed; Assume a full draw with elbow in line as it should be. Engage back tension and elbow draws back. Again, at full draw, but with low release arm, elbow out. Engage back tension. Back tension, not other muscles. Do you have ease of motion or motion at all?


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## unclejane (Jul 22, 2012)

Probably why PBT works for me - I've done a fair bit of work on my draw length this last time around getting back into compound, I've shortened it almost 1 1/2" over my last foray into compound. If anything it's a hair short at this point at 28.5" but it's very very close to optimal. For me, that's the key to having nothing jammed into the face, and having enough room for the arm/shoulder to microscopically come round as I draw back with the back muscles. I can even suspend the entire machine from draw elbow to the pocket on the left hand away from my face during the entire execution just cocking my head to look through the peep (and sometimes I do shots like that to sanity-check my bareshaft or if I start getting spurious lefts). It moves inward maybe just a hair, but that's it.

So draw length may be the issue for you PBT detractors! 

LS


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## unclejane (Jul 22, 2012)

SonnyThomas said:


> unclejane, where are you? Haul back and shoot


Yepper, exactly.... Seems we've come full circle back to "HB&S" lol....

LS


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## Lazarus (Sep 19, 2005)

Kind of off topic but seems that's where this has drifted; a Shooter (that's with a capital "S") can shoot a draw length that is just about right with just a little bonding time with the bow. There's a lot more stretch in the applied muscles in the draw/hold cycle than a half turn of the string can effect. 

I swear to priest, _some_ of you guys act like precision archery is rocket surgery, or brain science or something. 

Once again, it's the Indian.


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## ron w (Jan 5, 2013)

yes he can....blah, blah blah......that does nothing to speak of the fact that back tension does or doesn't exist and that despite being able to , as you call it "bond" with the bow, there is definitely a specific draw length that will result in the best shot from least effort applied, for any given individual.
I suppose, because it came from me, you disagree with that also.


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## Lazarus (Sep 19, 2005)

ron w said:


> yes he can....blah, blah blah......that does nothing to speak of the fact that back tension does or doesn't exist and that despite being able to , as you call it "bond" with the bow, there is definitely a specific draw length that will result in the best shot from least effort applied, for any given individual.
> I suppose, because it came from me, you disagree with that also.


No. By all means, I agree with you completely! 

And that range of specific draw length varies quite a bit depending on the ability of the shooter! :cheers:


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## EPLC (May 21, 2002)

ron w said:


> yes he can....blah, blah blah......that does nothing to speak of the fact that back tension does or doesn't exist and that despite being able to , as you call it "bond" with the bow, there is definitely a specific draw length that will result in the best shot from least effort applied, for any given individual.
> I suppose, because it came from me, you disagree with that also.


I'm going to side with you on this one Ron.


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

Lazarus said:


> No. By all means, I agree with you completely!
> 
> And that range of specific draw length varies quite a bit depending on the ability of the shooter! :cheers:


I guess I can agree. Just got in my new longer draw length modules. I've been shooting both my MarXman and MX2 having a heck of time determining which I like. The MarXman, 28 1/2" draw length with 5/8" d-loop. The MX2, 28 1/4" draw length with 5/8" d-loop. The MX2 feels short, wants to take off at the least bit of relaxing, not creep, but literally take off and let off set to 80% - my scale shows holding weight of 9 pounds and Tim's scale show holding weight of 10 pounds. Both bows shoot great as is with 1/4" difference in draw length.
The 9 and 10 pounds is a blow off when you have dual limb draw stops, absolutely no give. I'm guessing on the wall and holding weight is more of 15 pounds.
Should have the new modules installed this week. I believe with the longer draw length, tweaked to match the MarXman there abouts, I can stretch out and eliminate some of or all of the out of hole take off the MX2 has at the present.


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## Rick! (Aug 10, 2008)

SonnyThomas said:


> I guess I can agree. Just got in my new longer draw length modules. I've been shooting both my MarXman and MX2 having a heck of time determining which I like. The MarXman, 28 1/2" draw length with 5/8" d-loop. The MX2, 28 1/4" draw length with 5/8" d-loop. The MX2 feels short, wants to take off at the least bit of relaxing, not creep, but literally take off and let off set to 80% - my scale shows holding weight of 9 pounds and Tim's scale show holding weight of 10 pounds. Both bows shoot great as is with 1/4" difference in draw length.
> The 9 and 10 pounds is a blow off when you have dual limb draw stops, absolutely no give. I'm guessing on the wall and holding weight is more of 15 pounds.
> Should have the new modules installed this week. I believe with the longer draw length, tweaked to match the MarXman there abouts, I can stretch out and eliminate some of or all of the out of hole take off the MX2 has at the present.


If you happen to lose one of the limb stops, it'll soften up quite a bit. They were like that in 2008 you know. .


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

Rick! said:


> If you happen to lose one of the limb stops, it'll soften up quite a bit. They were like that in 2008 you know. .


Well, yes and no. Martin had one bottom draw stop. It was maybe forgiving for a hard wall bow. Pearson still had the Z7 single cam in 2008 and came out with the R2B2 cam system in 2009. Odd was the Z34 with one draw stop (I never shot one) and the TX4 (I have) came with top and bottom draw stops. Now, I did have a draw stop slip on my MarXman. Talk about "double clutch," Wow. Happened hauling in someone else's truck traveling to or during a 2014 State ASA Qualifier, Jamie Young's. Did okay for a bit and then I could feel one draw stop hit and then the other. If I shot with the first draw stop hitting I did okay, but hauling back and feeling both hit one at a time, forget it, low shot every time. I have tried, but feel the Legend cams are tied in as well as the Martin Cat and Nitro cams. And I haven't tried what Pearson and others say, you can shoot the Legend and LSM cams without draw stops....


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## Topper1018 (Feb 19, 2013)

Just a question but if for the traditional pure back tension to be performed properly the draw length has to be within a twist of the bowstring why in the world is it being taught? Everyone should suffer through trying to rip the wheels off until they hit that magic twist number that puts them over the hump and the release now fires with ease? Crazy, no wonder string companies are booming. 

Also, all scientific jargon aside I fail to see how a method of an evenly weight distributed hand and small movement of the draw elbow to fire is the same as pulling straight back and stretching the palm? I see they are the same in, the release must rotate to fire that's a given but the methods of doing that are much different. No? Maybe I just need to be beaten with the dictionary some more?


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## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

Topper1018, I really don't know why it became the number one method being taught because it really is that finicky when it comes to getting things absolutely perfect in order to shoot with it. I have experienced it a few times in the last year because I now have three different bows and at one time they all had different draw lengths. Because of that my hinge fired really fast on my 3d bow and really slow on my hunting bow and just right on my indoor bow because it is the one that I had set the hinge speed with. I then twisted my bow string to match both my indoor bow and 3d bow and now when I switch from one to another the hinge fires with the exact same effort. 

This is why pro shooters are very picky about getting the draw length on their bows the same for each bow they shoot.


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## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

A good pro shooter doesn't twist strings to fire their hinge without ripping the cams off, he has worked on his draw length to find the perfect hold which includes his float pattern and lack of drop outs and not being to stretched out or compact. It is the draw length that allows him to execute hundreds of good shots in a row.


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## Topper1018 (Feb 19, 2013)

I would venture then, that draw length is more of a direct link to aim, rather than release execution. In the process of a shot, for me anyway, the float must be acceptable to start the firing process. I would also think this due to the fact there are few pros actually performing the traditional pure back tension technique. 
Thus the twist of the string/cables is an indirect link to execution so it should be viewed as aim improvement to allow execution improvement rather. I think this would have had me chasing my tail less in bow setup.


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

Topper1018 said:


> Just a question but if for the traditional pure back tension to be performed properly the draw length has to be within a twist of the bowstring why in the world is it being taught? Everyone should suffer through trying to rip the wheels off until they hit that magic twist number that puts them over the hump and the release now fires with ease? Crazy, no wonder string companies are booming.
> 
> Also, all scientific jargon aside I fail to see how a method of an evenly weight distributed hand and small movement of the draw elbow to fire is the same as pulling straight back and stretching the palm? I see they are the same in, the release must rotate to fire that's a given but the methods of doing that are much different. No? Maybe I just need to be beaten with the dictionary some more?


Well, half to one twist of the bow string isn't all that much, so I doubt the claim. I can feel about 1/8" off and someone in here said he could feel .040". Yes, I've heard twisting string to perfection, but believe shooting a bow some stretch of strings is absorbed by the shooter until, yep, gotta twist up strings. Some of the better strings can be shot a bunch, so once twisted up no change for a long, long time.

I believe nuts&bolts just recently posted of unnoticeable of one twist of the bow string. Take a dual cam 40" ata bow or how about a 38 3/8" ata single cam bow with 98.5" bow string...

Trying to get draw length I untwisted a bow string 4 full twists and never felt a change. Measuring showed the same or so close I couldn't tell.


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## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

Yeah, draw length is a direct link to your correct fit to the bow and your float will be its best when you are fitted properly.

You mentioned something i your post that caught my attention where you said you your float must be acceptable to start the firing process. This may be something that is holding you back and a form of control that you need to get rid of. A really good shooter already knows that his float is going to be a good one so he isn't standing there looking at it wondering if he should commit to the shot. I have some reading on this type subject if you want to read it on my website, just pm me.


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## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

My string set on my specialist had stretched enough that it was a half inch long and it took 15 full twists to get it back to where it need to be. I can't believe I let that happen.


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

Padgett said:


> My string set on my specialist had stretched enough that it was a half inch long and it took 15 full twists to get it back to where it need to be. I can't believe I let that happen.


That's cause you're good


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## Topper1018 (Feb 19, 2013)

I understand what you mean about the control aspect. However I may be communicating it wrong, and acceptable float for me is when te dot reaches the middle or referenced spot(as it so often is in 3d) and begins to float and I feel no wrong tension, example shoulders not relaxed. It's a short System check before full immersion in aim and firing sequence if that makes any sense?


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## unclejane (Jul 22, 2012)

Topper1018 said:


> Just a question but if for the traditional pure back tension to be performed properly the draw length has to be within a twist of the bowstring why in the world is it being taught? Everyone should suffer through trying to rip the wheels off until they hit that magic twist number that puts them over the hump and the release now fires with ease? Crazy, no wonder string companies are booming.
> 
> Also, all scientific jargon aside I fail to see how a method of an evenly weight distributed hand and small movement of the draw elbow to fire is the same as pulling straight back and stretching the palm? I see they are the same in, the release must rotate to fire that's a given but the methods of doing that are much different. No? Maybe I just need to be beaten with the dictionary some more?


Well, all my comments having been said, that could be why all these other methods have been come up with and refined; they're probably more forgiving in certain ways that suit many different shooters. In fact, I could be one of the few poor souls doomed to having to twiddle with my draw length to get it setup just right (though, so far, I think I'm pretty close) so I can shoot a hinge with PBT. I could be one of the throwbacks LOL. I have really advanced target panic, for example, so I need something pretty drastically easy to fire my release for me. A more complex firing engine may just be too much for my puny brain, seriously LOL.

Look at how many shooters have benefitted from Shawn's firing engines, for example and say 09K's more comprehensive approach which is a combination (from what I can gather from his description).

So at this point, tho I may have to use the curmudgeonly method, I don't feel particularly curmudgeonly about it. I only resist the claims that it's a "myth" and doesn't have the same status as other methods in terms of being a viable alternative to try. And that's even a reversal of my own position - I also used to think it was hooey until I tried it as described (by ron and by reading the Wise description). 

So it's not a bad thing that there are all these other methods, quite the contrary. It's a good thing because we have a large selection to choose from depending on what suits us. That's a luxury when you think about it.

LS


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## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

Well, again when you tried to explain yourself you are expressing doubt. I know that this is a weird thing I am bringing up and until I made my last jump becoming a really strong shooter I would have never believed it but I already know that I am going to hit what I am aiming at so I don't have to make sure that I am starting perfect. I simply come to anchor and go through my execution and the arrow hits right where it is supposed to. The moment that you believe that you have to be perfect for you to start things is the moment that something bad is going to happen.


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## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

Hopefully I have sparked some interest in your head for you to take a step back and do some thinking, I have some reading for you if you want it.


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## Topper1018 (Feb 19, 2013)

I fully understand now. But like other parts of a shot sequence that with proper practice become subconscious second nature habits, I'm hoping in time that system check will run itself without creeping into the conscious thought that the arrow is going in the middle and that's all. These are exactly the public discussions I hope other hinge shooters read relate and grow from


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## EPLC (May 21, 2002)

Topper1018 said:


> Just a question but if for the traditional pure back tension to be performed properly the draw length has to be within a twist of the bowstring why in the world is it being taught? Everyone should suffer through trying to rip the wheels off until they hit that magic twist number that puts them over the hump and the release now fires with ease? Crazy, no wonder string companies are booming.
> 
> Also, all scientific jargon aside I fail to see how a method of an evenly weight distributed hand and small movement of the draw elbow to fire is the same as pulling straight back and stretching the palm? I see they are the same in, the release must rotate to fire that's a given but the methods of doing that are much different. No? Maybe I just need to be beaten with the dictionary some more?


If you keep confusing things with the facts you will not be Mr. Popularity around here  All kidding aside, GRIV told me that BT was too fussy several years ago. Unfortunately, at the time he was only one of a few telling it like it really was.


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## jwilson48 (Apr 1, 2009)

Guys not trying to totally derail this thread but this is kind of related. When I miss it's always either left, low, or both. Usually not by much but when I still have a flyer that is the direction it likes to go. Not sure if I should look at form, stabilizers, fitting engine, etc. it's bugging me because usually I can't tell when it's going to happen. Felt like a great shot but arrow missed 2". Seems like it doesn't happen when I shoot every day but if I skip one or two days it comes back.


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## RCR_III (Mar 19, 2011)

jwilson48 said:


> Guys not trying to totally derail this thread but this is kind of related. When I miss it's always either left, low, or both. Usually not by much but when I still have a flyer that is the direction it likes to go. Not sure if I should look at form, stabilizers, fitting engine, etc. it's bugging me because usually I can't tell when it's going to happen. Felt like a great shot but arrow missed 2". Seems like it doesn't happen when I shoot every day but if I skip one or two days it comes back.


It could be so many things. But to keep to the topic on the hinge shooting, see if when it's happening your hand is coming out away from your face as you're executing and releasing the arrow. This moving out away from the face will cause you to hit left.


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## Lazarus (Sep 19, 2005)

jwilson48 said:


> Guys not trying to totally derail this thread but this is kind of related. When I miss it's always either left, low, or both. Usually not by much but when I still have a flyer that is the direction it likes to go. Not sure if I should look at form, stabilizers, fitting engine, etc. it's bugging me because usually I can't tell when it's going to happen. Felt like a great shot but arrow missed 2". *Seems like it doesn't happen when I shoot every day but if I skip one or two days it comes back.*


It's likely you just figured out the solution to your challenge, regardless of the cause, it's highlighted in red above. :thumbs_up

And actually, thanks for an occasional derail, it gets a little crazy in here at times. :cheers:


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## athomPT (Dec 14, 2008)

To each his own how they approach a shot but I would think everyone knows the activation of back muscles is a "theory of the most repeatable way" to fire any release. Via hinge it's the engaging of the muscles of the back that contribute to the same roll of the hinge. I don't think any man/women on this planet thinks any tension will fire a hinge release with one finger, or at least I hope not. I think several factors like draw length and release setup for the individual play a huge part in how the shot occurrs after full draw position. Too long or too cold or fingers giving to the shot = a lot more effort to create the shot. When I'm consistant at anchor and full draw my shot goes off without any knowledge of any tension. The problem with me is consistancy.


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## Lazarus (Sep 19, 2005)

athomPT said:


> To each his own how they approach a shot but I would think everyone knows the activation of back muscles is a "theory of the most repeatable way" to fire any release. Via hinge it's the engaging of the muscles of the back that contribute to the same roll of the hinge. I don't think any man/women on this planet thinks any tension will fire a hinge release with one finger, or at least I hope not.


Totally agree how each person should approach their shot. The big beef here is with people teaching what I think is voodoo as fact and I think it damages people. It has nothing to do with choosing the approach that is best for you. I think that Back tension *firing* is voodoo. i think You do not activate the release with back muscles. I think it's not possible. The release fires by induced rotation. And the most accurate/repeatable way to induce that rotation is (in some chosen way) manipulating the hand/wrist. Not by "Cheating Your Form" aka "back tension" firing. 

I know, it's painful to try to unlearn 30 years of theory in just a short while. :wink:


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## sharkred7 (Jul 19, 2005)

Lazarus said:


> Totally agree how each person should approach their shot. The big beef here is with people teaching what I think is voodoo as fact and I think it damages people. It has nothing to do with choosing the approach that is best for you. I think that Back tension *firing* is voodoo. i think You do not activate the release with back muscles. I think it's not possible. The release fires by induced rotation. And the most accurate/repeatable way to induce that rotation is (in some chosen way) manipulating the hand/wrist. Not by "Cheating Your Form" aka "back tension" firing.
> 
> I know, it's painful to try to unlearn 30 years of theory in just a short while. :wink:




Not true, we have proven it can be done. That's how I learned it to get through target panic. That USED to be the only way I shot. I now used a combo of GRIV's method and maintaining back tension (which means a slight increase in tension). Through the years I have learned that is more easily repeatable. By squeezing the back you effectively can rotate the hinge, which is the ONLY way a hinge will fire. How you rotate it is a matter of opinion and personal preference.

Sorry I finally had to jump into this, I couldn't take it any longer!


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## sharkred7 (Jul 19, 2005)

Padgett said:


> Yeah, draw length is a direct link to your correct fit to the bow and your float will be its best when you are fitted properly.
> 
> You mentioned something i your post that caught my attention where you said you your float must be acceptable to start the firing process. This may be something that is holding you back and a form of control that you need to get rid of. A really good shooter already knows that his float is going to be a good one so he isn't standing there looking at it wondering if he should commit to the shot. I have some reading on this type subject if you want to read it on my website, just pm me.


Right on Padget, I tell people to just splash the pin on the target and begin your shot. If you take too much time to fine tune your aim your shot will take too long and break down before you can get the shot off which will compound the mistake. Then you will take longer to get the shot off over time.
Another problem I see with people using a clicker is on the same premise. They aim before they get to the click (start the shot) then wonder why the shot takes so long. Get to that click as you come to anchor, then begin your shot.
MHO
John


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## Lazarus (Sep 19, 2005)

sharkred7 said:


> Not true, we have proven it can be done. That's how I learned it to get through target panic. That USED to be the only way I shot. I now used a combo of GRIV's method and maintaining back tension (which means a slight increase in tension). Through the years I have learned that is more easily repeatable. By squeezing the back you effectively can rotate the hinge, which is the ONLY way a hinge will fire. How you rotate it is a matter of opinion and personal preference.
> 
> Sorry I finally had to jump into this, I couldn't take it any longer!


Funny sharkred7, I agree with you! :cheers:

But *regardless* of what style of release you use, *proper* back tension is an element of every shot!!!! I don't think that back tension is a firing method! The release fires from the rotation induced at the hand. You are not "cheating your form" at all! Again, I agree!


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## field14 (May 21, 2002)

To set some of the record straight with regard to Vegas winners. The source of this is Gene Lueck (OldPro on AT) who has, with help of many others researched this to a great extent.
1962-
Matt Yurick/Lou Shine Unlimited not invented yet!
1963-1964-1965-No Records
1967-
Lester Gervais/Lou Shine -- 1st two 300 scores shot by Lester and Bob Bitner was the first.
1968-1969-No records
1970-
Victor Berger/ Ann Butz --Berger won against three release shooters, Lewis, Marino and Troncoso.
1971-
Jack Lancaster/Denise Libby—Lancaster, Bill Mills Shot off 600 tie.
1972-
Ken Ostling/Mary Lynn Snyder—No limited class.--4 way tie at 600 Ostling, Bill Mills, John Williamson, Rich Slagle
1973-
Gene Parnell/Darlene Collier—Jim Pickering/LaVon Hagemeyer. Score change. Gold target no 10 ring inside out scoring. Touch the line is low score. 5-300s shot.
1974-
Bob (Jake) Jacobsen/Eva Troncoso---Jim Pickering/Joan Newbauer. New target Vegas 10 ring) *Mel Stanislawski shot the first 300.*
1975-
Jim Quarles/Eva Troncoso—Rod Schooler/Ann Schooler---Gene Lueck (OldPro) shoots the second Vegas 300.
1976-
Mark Perfect/Eva Troncoso---Ken Stanlislawski/Anita Denend Changed to 450 round. No perfects!
1977-
Ray Waleszcak/Ginger McClintock---Terry Frazer/Denice Libby
1978-
Terry Ragsdale/Fay Binney---Terry Frazer/Frozine Green--- Terry shot the first and only 1200 score to date at Vegas. 450,450,300, Vegas 10 ring target. He did it again in Detroit at the North American Indoor.
1979-
Terry Ragsdale/Michelle Ragsdale---John Doer/Carolyn Griffith---only Gene Lueck and Stan Colombo finished with 300s on Sunday.
1980-
Jack Cramer/Katie Smith---Jerry Podratz/Caroline Griffith –The beginning of the Katie Smith era! Three way shootoff at 1197. Cramer, John Taylor, Terry Ragsdale---three 450 rounds by Taylor, Larry Wise, and Alan Mikula---5-Sunday 300s by: Cramer, Gene Lueck, Joe Klemeneic, Jon Willig, and Mikula.
1981-
Garry Lampshire/Katie Smith---John Doerr/ Caroline Griffith---Four way shoot off at 1197—Lampshire, Jon Willig, Jim Stout, and Dean Pridgen---two 450s by Jon Willig and Ron Walker---Sunday 300s by: Pridgen, Harold Mobley, Terry Ragsdale, and Mickey Fancher.
1982-
Dean Pridgen/Katie Smith---Ed Rohde/Caroline Griffith---two way shoot off at 1199, Dean and Larry Wise---7-450s shot, two by Dean and one each by: Katie Smith ( First ever by a woman) Larry Wise, Terry Ragsdale, Jim Stout, and Mike Leiter. Sunday 300s by: Michelle Ragsdale, Larry Wise, Jim Stout, Mike Leiter, Frank Pearson, and John Taylor.
1983-
Jon Willig/Katie Smith---Terry Frazer/Caroline Griffith---No shoot off. Four 450s. Katie Smith, Jon Willig, Dean Pridgen and Mike Derus. Three Sunday 300s by: Jon, Dean, and Garry Lampshire.
1884-
DAVE BARNSDALE/Katie Smith---Frank Gandy/Caroline Griffith---Three way shoot off at 1198: Barnsdale, Ragsdale and Wise.
1985-
Terry Ragsdale/Katie Smith---Frank Gandy/Ginger McClintock---No shoot off—Terry with the first 900 at Vegas. Changed scoring to 3-300 rounds.
1986-
Rich Wiley/Becky Pearson---Eric Hall/Trish (Hall) Johnson---Three way shoot off at 899. Rich Wiley, Kirk Ethridge, Larry Wise. Lots of 300s.
1987-
Harold Mobley/Becky Pearson---Eric Hall/Trish Johnson---Two way shoot off at 900: Harold Mobley and Dee Wilde.
1988-
Jeff Rogers/Becky Pearson---Eric Hall/Dahrl Suttner---Three way shoot off at 899. Jeff, Eric Hall, Dee Wilde.
1989Dee Wilde/Linda Klosterman---Rich Johnson/Caroline Phillips---Two way shoot off at 899. Dee and Kirk Ethridge.
1990-
Jeff Rogers/Fay Binney---Rich Johnson/Dahrl Suttner---Five way shoot off at 898. Jeff, Dave Barnsdale, Terry Ragsdale, Dee Wilde, Danny Cobb.
1991-
Frank Pearson/Fay Binney---Rich Johnson/Tina Mihalo---First shoot off concept of a qualify and elimination.
1992-
Kirk Ethridge/Carol Bitner---Denise Parker/Mike Kerr---New Target 150 possible score.
1993-
Dee Wilde/Fay Binney---Randy Brabec/Marihelen Rogers---


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## EPLC (May 21, 2002)

Great info Tom, thanks.


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## ron w (Jan 5, 2013)

EPLC said:


> If you keep confusing things with the facts you will not be Mr. Popularity around here  All kidding aside, GRIV told me that BT was too fussy several years ago. Unfortunately, at the time he was only one of a few telling it like it really was.


 that Griv told you it's too fussy, doesn't speak to idea that it is a myth, now does it. it also doesn't speak to the fact that not everyone thinks it's "too fussy". I for one, think it's ultra simple and easy to accomplish.


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## unclejane (Jul 22, 2012)

ron w said:


> that Griv told you it's too fussy, doesn't speak to idea that it is a myth, now does it. it also doesn't speak to the fact that not everyone thinks it's "too fussy". I for one, think it's ultra simple and easy to accomplish.


As to whether it exists at all, EP's argument from popularity - that it may be less taught and utilized now than at some point in the past - is fallacious reasoning and therefore has no bearing on PBT's status as a real-world, existing method of shooting with a hinge. As for "fussiness", what does that mean? It don't get no simpler than Haul Back & Shoot (again thanks must go to Sonny), no fussy there that I can see LOL.

LS


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

athomPT said:


> To each his own how they approach a shot but I would think everyone knows the activation of back muscles is a "theory of the most repeatable way" to fire any release. Via hinge it's the engaging of the muscles of the back that contribute to the same roll of the hinge. I don't think any man/women on this planet thinks any tension will fire a hinge release with one finger, or at least I hope not. I think several factors like draw length and release setup for the individual play a huge part in how the shot occurrs after full draw position. Too long or too cold or fingers giving to the shot = a lot more effort to create the shot. When I'm consistant at anchor and full draw my shot goes off without any knowledge of any tension. The problem with me is consistancy.





Lazarus said:


> Totally agree how each person should approach their shot. The big beef here is with people teaching voodoo as fact and it damages people. It has nothing to do with choosing the approach that is best for you. Back tension *firing* is voodoo. You do not activate the release with back muscles. It's not possible. The release fires by induced rotation. And the most accurate/repeatable way to induce that rotation is (in some chosen way) manipulating the hand/wrist. Not by "Cheating Your Form" aka "back tension" firing.
> 
> I know, it's painful to try to unlearn 30 years of mis-information in just a short while. :wink:



Learning back tension to fire a hinge damages people? I doubt that, but give that people get frustrated and mostly from wanting "overnight" success. 

Back tension is Voodoo? How about magical with proper technique and commitment? 

You do not activate the release with back muscles? It's not possible? Again proper technique, commitment and understanding what field14 noted, biomechanics. I noted it, tension builds and something has to move and the movement to fire the hinge is of the tiniest. Performed properly there is no breaking of form... 

No one is denying "other means" exists for success of firing a hinge, but all know back tension is important to the shot.

No one in this forum is going to change the world. I can see some one coming in this forum and asking for help with a hinge and then crushed by the BS of what's proper, what's not and who's right and who's wrong... Is that what we want? Or, give good clean unbiased instructions of all manners and let them choose?

Two prominent coaches, two distinct manners of firing a hinge and not one person in here having the guts to call one wrong... If one doesn't have the guts to come out and say so then one shouldn't be trying shove the other's down someone's throat....


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## unclejane (Jul 22, 2012)

Lazarus said:


> And the most accurate/repeatable way to induce that rotation is (in some chosen way) manipulating the hand/wrist. Not by "Cheating Your Form" aka "back tension" firing.


And here you're committing the very same violation you're accusing others of committing - taking a rigid "my-way-or-the-highway" position on your own pet method, with labels like "cheating your form" applied to other methods (with which you apparently either aren't familiar or whose practitioners you simply have an axe to grind with). In reality, no, manipulating the hand/wrist is *not* necessarily *the most* accurate/repeatable way to induce rotation of a hinge. It is *only one of many ways* to do so, among them no manipulation at all and relying on the natural rotation of the arm during pulling to accomplish this.

Consistency in debate is just as important as it is in shooting. You need to practice it.

LS


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## Mahly (Dec 18, 2002)

unclejane said:


> And here you're committing the very same violation you're accusing others of committing - taking a rigid "my-way-or-the-highway" position on your own pet method, with labels like "cheating your form" applied to other methods (with which you apparently either aren't familiar or whose practitioners you simply have an axe to grind with). In reality, no, manipulating the hand/wrist is *not* necessarily *the most* accurate/repeatable way to induce rotation of a hinge. It is *only one of many ways* to do so, among them no manipulation at all and relying on the natural rotation of the arm during pulling to accomplish this.
> 
> Consistency in debate is just as important as it is in shooting. You need to practice it.
> 
> LS


Lets ALL remember that.
IMO, the problem isn't that some teach back tension as a firing method, nor is it a problem that some teach a variation of manipulating the hinge.
The problem is that there are those (on BOTH sides) that seem to think their's is the ONLY way.
BOTH basic styles have won virtually everything there is to win. Heck, even punchers can win (Gillingham?).
I don't care which method you teach, just don't tell me it's the ONLY way. You might think it's the best, and that's great...but there ARE others.

The PBT method DID help me beat a HUGE TP issue I had. But the way I learned doesn't work as well with bows with solid back walls. The manipulation with back tension is helping me with what I currently shoot, and I am grateful I have BOTH systems to learn from.


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## Lazarus (Sep 19, 2005)

SonnyThomas said:


> Learning back tension to fire a hinge damages people? I doubt that, but give that people get frustrated and mostly from wanting "overnight" success.
> 
> Back tension is Voodoo? How about magical with proper technique and commitment?
> 
> ...


Good post Sonny. I can tell you thought that one out. I'll be brief.

1.In any endeavor there are "best practices." 
2.In most any endeavor there are myriad ways of performing an act.
3.Firing a (any) T Handle release is no different, there are best practices, there are myriad ways of firing it.
4.It's often repeated that a shooter must "find the way that works best for them." That's part right.........see #5
5.The "best practice" is for a shooter to find the way that works the best for the situation at hand. (why does this statement seem to fly over many peoples heads?)
6.i feel the practice of "cheating your form" by promoting leveraging your elbow either down or laterally to fire a release is *NOT* a "best practice." (mistakenly called "back tension.")

Last, I'm not going to name names. It's not necessary. It's one of those "if the shoe fits" moments, those who want to open their eyes can figure it out. But I will say this; I think that ANYone that promotes the idea of "cheating your form" by teaching a firing system that encourages coming out of alignment is guilty of HORRIBLE teaching. Second, (and listen to this one close,) if they are teaching a system that a release has to be SO HOT to fire that a (supposed) squeeze of a "couple of little muscles" fires it, I feel they are contributing to the possibility of firing anxiety that they preach their technique is supposed to help avoid. 

I'll finish with this, then close. There has been many accusations of "my way or the highway" on here. Those are pure BS. I've never once even hinted at that. Again, I'll reiterate, there are many ways to accurately fire a T handle, and again, I'll say there are many "best practices." But "cheating your form" aka back tension firing doesn't belong there. 

I'm going to close with this. Thank you for bringing up some important points that needed to be addressed. What I'm saying here doesn't come from an uninformed position. I've tried to be straight up, clear, and to the point. Hopefully you (or maybe a bystander) might get it. 

To the range.........:cheers:


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## Sasquech (Dec 15, 2014)

I would like to point out the flaw in popularity logic. The idea that the earth revolved around the sun caused a man to be persecuted through out his life by the strongly held opinions incorrect as they were of the majority. So faith in numbers laz and company is not comforting to me. I would rather see real fact based discussion. And respect for each other's opinions by the way. Germany thought they were right in both wars. Hindsight is 20 20


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## Lazarus (Sep 19, 2005)

Sasquech, where in my response did I mention anything about popularity? Or where in any post have I mentioned it? You won't find it because I haven't. 

To be very candid I agree with you. Believe me, I understand, just because an entire group of people believe something doesn't make it so. That's not in any way an argument that I have made.


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## sharkred7 (Jul 19, 2005)

Mahly said:


> Lets ALL remember that.
> IMO, the problem isn't that some teach back tension as a firing method, nor is it a problem that some teach a variation of manipulating the hinge.
> The problem is that there are those (on BOTH sides) that seem to think their's is the ONLY way.
> BOTH basic styles have won virtually everything there is to win. Heck, even punchers can win (Gillingham?).
> ...


That, I believe, is the most beneficial part of what is now being termed PBT. If you are trying to get over TP, I believe, you need to learn PBT until your mind is trained that you CAN hit your target without firing on purpose.

If I am helping someone get over TP I would ONLY teach PBT otherwise some one that hammers the trigger when the pin gets close is only going to do the same with a hinge. Once they get it, then you can work on what way gives them the most consistant results under pressure.

That is MY opinion and how I choose to teach it. Doesn't make it right or wrong, but worked for me and that's how I help others.

John


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## unclejane (Jul 22, 2012)

Lazarus said:


> Good post Sonny. I can tell you thought that one out. I'll be brief.
> 
> 1.In any endeavor there are "best practices."
> 2.In most any endeavor there are myriad ways of performing an act.
> ...


Of course you did - right there in your #6. You were doing great with 1-5, and then contradicted yourself completely at #6. There you hauled out both misinformation (that PBT is not a valid Best Practice) and a meaningless, contentless label "cheating your form". #6 is my-way-or-the-highway to the very core: if you use PBT you're "cheating your form" (whatever that means) and you're doin' it *wrong*!

If you can't keep your own line of reasoning internally consistent, there's no reason to believe that anything you're saying here is reliable. Sorry, but you're simply wrong - your point at #6 is demonstrably false. PBT is a valid hinge shooting Best Practice and it is no way whatsoever "cheating your form". No other way to say it.

LS


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## unclejane (Jul 22, 2012)

Mahly said:


> The PBT method DID help me beat a HUGE TP issue I had. But the way I learned doesn't work as well with bows with solid back walls. The manipulation with back tension is helping me with what I currently shoot, and I am grateful I have BOTH systems to learn from.


I should mention that target panic is the main item that got me to try PBT again. I had what was essentially a relapse trying the other methods; I kind of discovered this on my own when going back to my pull-through. I found that the extra manipulation at the hand/fingers was making me cognitively execute the release for some reason. After a while with my pull through I found that just coming back to anchor and pulling was the only way to put the target panic at bay. Sonny's Haul Back & Shoot!

To my pleasant surprise, literally, I picked up my hinge and executed some shots in exactly the same manner as with my pull-through. pop. goes right off. Especially on my Hoyt wheel bow which has a super smooshy back wall, but it even seems to work on my PSE also (tho I'm going to have to work on it there a little bit due to the harder back wall). 

So at least in my very long experience with target panic, some style which involves pulling through the shot with the back, whether it's PBT or a combination like Shawn's firing engines or others, is probably essential for treating it....

For me, it may just be that my particular form of target panic is so advanced I can't take advantage of these other methods. All of which clearly work extremely well for many other archers; like I said, look at how much help Shawn's engines have been to so many. I may just be doomed to PBT from Larry Wise. And me and Ron W may just have to go shoot over there in the corner on the line with each other lol....

LS


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## ron w (Jan 5, 2013)

I think what we have here is am "impasse" about what we call "back tension". 
some people calling it the muscular process to draw and hold a bow back, with the activation of the release process, whether by rhomboid contraction, or hand/finger manipulation, being a separate process,....and some calling it back tension, by including the former, but only with rhomboid contraction, as the release execution.
that is why I call it "rotational back tension"...thus clarifying that my process includes rhomboid contraction to produce the necessary rotation that fires the release.
the rest of you can call it what you want.


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

Lazarus said:


> Good post Sonny. I can tell you thought that one out. I'll be brief.
> 
> 6.The practice of "cheating your form" by promoting leveraging your elbow either down or laterally to fire a release is *NOT* a "best practice." (mistakenly called "back tension.")
> 
> Last, I'm not going to name names.


Nothing thought out, just that we've rattled so much all you have to do type it out.

As far as I can tell we haven't advocated leveraging the elbow down or laterally. It's said in General Archery Discussion has been "moving the elbow back." Back tension used properly is the biomechanics field14 brought forth. As such a miniscule movement to fire a hinge done smoothly. Said I don't how many times this movement is "waiting" for the hinge to fire. Okay, waiting isn't "ripping" a shot. What of the other means? Flipping the index finger out or both flipping the index finger out and pulling hard with the middle and ring finger is what? Would this be "ripping a shot?" What are the Pros doing? I'll bet they practice the "other means" to a smooth science to suit them. Chris said as much in Daniel Boone's Thread. Also said it wasn't for everyone.

No naming names? Then one replying of their method shouldn't be chided or singled out in any manner? Bet it won't happen....


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## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

During my shooting session last night I shot normal for a while and then I shot Pure back tension for a few shots and Yielding for a few shots, The biggest thing I notice when I use pure back tension by itself to shoot is the enormous amount of effort that has to be done with the back muscles because nothing else is assisting in the shot to create rotation. The moment that I added yielding to my shot along with back tension they complimented each other and allowed both of them to be very subtle.

To me this is the key to why so many people are having more success with yielding or squeezing and pulling because there is a balance between back tension and what is being done in the hand that allows them to be very subtle in nature and percieved effort. 

I can remember back when I first started and I tried to do nothing but back tension and it made my back muscles sore and I failed miserably and then I went to just rotating the hinge and just sit in the valley without putting any back tension into the shot. Both of these methods had the same outcome, they were huge efforts to produce the rotation required to get the hinge fired. With the pure back tension I suffered with pulling the pin off of the spot as I tried to fire and I also suffered with putting out a ton of effort and nothing happening. At the time I had no idea that I should be letting down and I just forced it to happen after a while. With the rotation only methods that I used I suffered from so much rotation it created anticipation problems and since I had no pressure against the wall and was just sitting in the valley I also had a wishy washy float pattern and I dropped out of the bottom a bunch.


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

Padgett said:


> During my shooting session last night I shot normal for a while and then I shot Pure back tension for a few shots and Yielding for a few shots, The biggest thing I notice when I use pure back tension by itself to shoot is the enormous amount of effort that has to be done with the back muscles because nothing else is assisting in the shot to create rotation. The moment that I added yielding to my shot along with back tension they complimented each other and allowed both of them to be very subtle.
> 
> To me this is the key to why so many people are having more success with yielding or squeezing and pulling because there is a balance between back tension and what is being done in the hand that allows them to be very subtle in nature and percieved effort.
> 
> I can remember back when I first started and I tried to do nothing but back tension and it made my back muscles sore and I failed miserably and then I went to just rotating the hinge and just sit in the valley without putting any back tension into the shot. Both of these methods had the same outcome, they were huge efforts to produce the rotation required to get the hinge fired. With the pure back tension I suffered with pulling the pin off of the spot as I tried to fire and I also suffered with putting out a ton of effort and nothing happening. At the time I had no idea that I should be letting down and I just forced it to happen after a while. With the rotation only methods that I used I suffered from so much rotation it created anticipation problems and since I had no pressure against the wall and was just sitting in the valley I also had a wishy washy float pattern and I dropped out of the bottom a bunch.


Just me thinking and knowing what others think or thought; "Scared to death to relax with a hinge." You're all tensed up and you're locked up. Bet a lot of people start out with a fist like grip on the hinge. This should be your greatest effort for people having success with a hinge. Have them learn to relax before ever thinking another step of using a hinge. Yep, just write or article all within it's self of relaxing with a hinge.


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## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

One of the things that I was so scared of for a long time was just pulling straight back into the wall, I don't know why I didn't allow myself to do it. I know that there are some guys that claim that it is impossible or the wrong thing to do so some how or another I was just sitting in the valley most of the time. I can't put a exact date on when it happened but I think that it was back about 2.5 years ago when I started studying my float, I would do about 10 or so let downs at the beginning of my shooting sessions as a warm up and I can remember comparing my float when I was just sitting in the valley and when I was pulling into the wall and when I was using back tension. It only took about 2 weeks for me to see that my pin was way more strong inside the x when I simply pulled into the wall smoothly straight back.

It didn't take long before I had incorporated pulling straight back into the wall into my firing methods, I know that I had already started writing down my firing engines in articles because I had to go back and add pulling smoothly into the wall to all of them. I don't think any of them included pulling smoothly into the wall and it was scary to add it to them but I am a performance based person and not a band wagon person so for me it was proving to be something critical to good shooting.


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## unclejane (Jul 22, 2012)

Padgett said:


> To me this is the key to why so many people are having more success with yielding or squeezing and pulling because there is a balance between back tension and what is being done in the hand that allows them to be very subtle in nature and percieved effort.


One thing I wonder, could it just be differences in anatomy? Maybe some archers are just built in such a way that "rotating through the shot" as LW puts it, just doesn't work? I believe folks when they say an approach doesn't work (for them); I've got quite a kit of tools that I've tried that just don't work for me. 

And heck for all I know, now that I at least have a starting point, it could end up refining itself into a combination later on. Assuming I get good enough to take advantage... 

So dunno just throwing that out there. Maybe it really is the archer's "fault" where "fault" is just an anatomical difference and not a failure or anything like that in any negative sense....?

LS


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## jwilson48 (Apr 1, 2009)

Padgett said:


> One of the things that I was so scared of for a long time was just pulling straight back into the wall, I don't know why I didn't allow myself to do it. I know that there are some guys that claim that it is impossible or the wrong thing to do so some how or another I was just sitting in the valley most of the time. I can't put a exact date on when it happened but I think that it was back about 2.5 years ago when I started studying my float, I would do about 10 or so let downs at the beginning of my shooting sessions as a warm up and I can remember comparing my float when I was just sitting in the valley and when I was pulling into the wall and when I was using back tension. It only took about 2 weeks for me to see that my pin was way more strong inside the x when I simply pulled into the wall smoothly straight back.
> 
> It didn't take long before I had incorporated pulling straight back into the wall into my firing methods, I know that I had already started writing down my firing engines in articles because I had to go back and add pulling smoothly into the wall to all of them. I don't think any of them included pulling smoothly into the wall and it was scary to add it to them but I am a performance based person and not a band wagon person so for me it was proving to be something critical to good shooting.


I noticed immediate improvement last night doing this. I had been rotating around and while it helped, pulling straight back seemed to make the pin just hover on the spot instead of float around the spot. Also didn't have any side to side misses like I had been


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## unclejane (Jul 22, 2012)

ron w said:


> I think what we have here is am "impasse" about what we call "back tension".
> some people calling it the muscular process to draw and hold a bow back, with the activation of the release process, whether by rhomboid contraction, or hand/finger manipulation, being a separate process,....and some calling it back tension, by including the former, but only with rhomboid contraction, as the release execution.
> that is why I call it "rotational back tension"...thus clarifying that my process includes rhomboid contraction to produce the necessary rotation that fires the release.
> the rest of you can call it what you want.


Well Larry Wise says "don't pull through the shot, rotate through the shot"... er, which I don't do conceptually LOL. What I'm doing now* feels* like just plain ol' pulling *straight back* into the wall with only the back muscles and consistent finger pressure on the handle. But what *actually happens* is apparently this "rotating through the shot", because the hinge does go off and now very easily with my Hoyt. The other night I noticed that when I hang up, it seems to be because I've stopped the smooth pull, usually exhaustion.

So I agree, rotational back tension is probably a more accurate description of the actual technique....

LS


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## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

Sonny, I totally agree. I totally wish someone would have been here more aggressively teaching yielding back when I was first learning to be a hinge shooter, even with my squeeze and pull engine I have a relaxed hand that isn't locked up and it is so stinking important. The more I do these discussions here on archery talk I think that yielding is probably the most commonly used method, the pure back tension guys are basically yielding but they just don't give the yielding credit. They give almost 100% credit to their back tension as to what is firing the hinge but I shoot with back tension all the time in training and without a soft hand you are screwed, I know that back when I was learning to shoot a hinge I was so scared of rotating the hinge with my fingers and cheating the hinge or cranking it I had my hand so locked up and frozen it is a stinking miracle that I ever fired it even one time. 

The amazing thing is how many tournaments I won locally and the fact that I was in the top 10 in open b and open a at the asa level on more than one occasion during this time period. This season there is a reason that I was on the top end of open a instead of just hoping for a top 10 and it is because my shooting had really changed into something different. I had learned to incorporate a smooth tension pulled into the wall that balanced out my effort with my hand to form a very sweet and repeatable firing method that simply worked all season long. At no time was my shooting a issue, I just had to pick a competitive distance that kept me nibbling at the 12 ring on the top side and my shooting took care of me.


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## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

For you guys that are actually trying the whole pulling straight back into the wall approach make sure that you give yourself time to allow it to take effect, it isn't the pulling into the wall that fires the hinge and when you first try to do it your first desire is to smoothly increase that tension into the wall and for the arrow to just leave the bow.

It is the combination of yielding of your hand along with pulling straight back into the wall that will send the arrow on its way, this is the balance between your stretching of your hand and the smooth increase of tension straight back into the wall that combines to create a generous amount of rotation. You guys are going to love it.


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## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

One of the best and easiest ways to feel the sensation of yielding is to just go out and fill up a 5 gallon bucket with water and then pick it up and feeling your hand stretch out flat with your fingers j-hooked on the little plastic rotating handle. Just sitting here and typing this I can visualize what the bucket of water feels like in my fingers as I carry it and my fingers yield to the weight of the water.

Take the time tonight to go out and actually do this, go ahead and visualize right now but tonight actually do it with a bucket and then shoot your bow and use the same sensation as you float and it is a amazing experience to say the least.


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## unclejane (Jul 22, 2012)

Padgett said:


> For you guys that are actually trying the whole pulling straight back into the wall approach make sure that you give yourself time to allow it to take effect, it isn't the pulling into the wall that fires the hinge and when you first try to do it your first desire is to smoothly increase that tension into the wall and for the arrow to just leave the bow.
> 
> It is the combination of yielding of your hand along with pulling straight back into the wall that will send the arrow on its way, this is the balance between your stretching of your hand and the smooth increase of tension straight back into the wall that combines to create a generous amount of rotation. You guys are going to love it.


You know, it's entirely possible that that's happening with me without me realizing it? Credit has to go where credit is due and Shawn may, for all I know, be describing exactly what's happening in my shot. At the risk of imposing a cognitive execution for a while, I'm going to look at this next time I shoot and see if I can detect any yielding going on. I have tried it with the Kung Fu Grip too, tho, and it still worked.

So you may be totally right on this and I may be full of bullfeathers LOL. Wouldn't be the first time and won't be the last. I still like Sonny's HB&S engine tho and that's what I'm going to call mine whatever it ends up being LOL....

LS


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## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

There are always things going on that you aren't aware of, the better I get the less I am aware of all the little things that I have worked on. These little form and execution things have became memorized by my brain and now just happen without me having to tell them to happen. 

When I go from squeeze and pull firing engine to yielding all I do is tell myself to make the change and my body just flips a switch and it happens, I don't just manually perform things with my hand. In the beginning I think a guy right now here on archery talk should adopt yielding as his introductory method, it is so smooth and generates so much rotation and it is a very easy firing engine to learn. Then as he progresses and he becomes proficient with it he can move on to squeeze the middle and ring finger as he smoothly increases the tension straight back into the wall and become proficient at this one also and then you have two methods to choose from as your dominant choice.


Yielding is still present in my squeeze and pull engine, it isn't the focus of this engine but to me it must exist and you as a shooter must allow it to happen. I really believe that for many many shooters a frozen index finger hurts them more than they realize and I learned that lesson a while back. With with my squeeze and pull engine I leave my index finger in neutral, to me there are three things you can do with your index finger. You can freeze it up to where it resists any pressure that is given to it or you can physically relax it which extends it or you can leave your index finger neutral. Neutral is what really makes your index finger a valuable member of the shot because as you smoothly pull into the wall with your ring and middle finger that side of the hinge wants to move back and create the rotation and your index finger ends up yielding to the pressure that is given to it. You aren't extending your index finger or manually relaxing it but the fact that it is in neutral allows it to yield without any help.


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## ron w (Jan 5, 2013)

the "kung fu grip will never work in either case. physiologically, when your hand is grasping some with considerable force, it tends to maintain what ever position it is in as it grasps. as far as finger or wrist manipulation that tension resists any movement or finger relaxation and as far as rotational back tension, if your wrist and top of your hand is not relaxed and relatively flat, the rotation from rhomboid contraction won't be transferred to the release body. 
this might be the main aspect that causes people to consider it , too rigid and inflexible. there is a certain amount of anxiety when you attempt relax your hand and fingers to the point that they need to be, when learning the execution.


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## EPLC (May 21, 2002)

ron w said:


> the "kung fu grip will never work in either case. physiologically, when your hand is grasping some with considerable force, it tends to maintain what ever position it is in as it grasps. as far as finger or wrist manipulation that tension resists any movement or finger relaxation and as far as rotational back tension, if your wrist and top of your hand is not relaxed and relatively flat, the rotation from rhomboid contraction won't be transferred to the release body.
> this might be the main aspect that causes people to consider it , too rigid and inflexible. there is a certain amount of anxiety when you attempt relax your hand and fingers to the point that they need to be, when learning the execution.


"All fingers should be held with equal tightness on the release and not relaxed." ~ Larry Wise


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## Mahly (Dec 18, 2002)

I remember when I was first learning the PBT method. I learned it here on AT, and as such, didn't have someone SHOWING me.
NO offence to those that helped me so long ago, but there were definitely important things like a relaxed hand that were not explained well.
In the end, I honestly believe it led to me destroying a set of limbs on my Martin Firecat :mg:


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## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

Eplc, I just love it when you dig up awesome little things like that one. That is the exact freaking comment by larry that I heard time after time from his teachings to other guys right here on archery talk that caused me to suffer so much.


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## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

Mahly, one of my best friends lives in the KC missouri area and I only get to see him every few months. I gave him a extra hinge and my hinge setup routine just like everyone here on archery talk, there is no extra special stuff for me to give him because I give everyone the same stuff that I use personally. A couple months would go by and he would come down to shoot with me and it would end up being a little shooting camp, I would tweek his bow setup and his form and his firing and by the end of the weekend he would be shooting awesome. Then a couple months would go by and he would show up and I would go through the same things again but each time he has progressed and now for the first time we shot last weekend and I really considered him a real hinge shooter. He isn't on my level of scoring competitively but to me Ken has become somebody that is actually enjoying what hinge shooting has to offer and he can go out and shoot a 3d course and be proud of the shooting.

This one on one is what I wish I could give to everybody here on archery talk, the articles are awesome and give you a look but when ken shows up to my house and we spend the afternoon shooting and he can watch me actually do what I do and I watch him the difference I can make is huge. One session isn't good enough, the fact that he can show up every once in a while is beyond important. In fact ken is now coming to 3d shoots on a regular basis with us and he even went to metropolis last summer for the entire week and shot with us during the super man shoot and the weekend asa stuff. The transformation that we all saw in him over that week was a awesome thing to see.

For you guys that have the opportunity to come and jump in my 3d group here in missouri you are always welcome, I teach school so my summer vacation is almost 3 months long and you can come and shoot with me for a few days if you want. I have a bbq grill that makes a good burger and steaks. Or just find somebody in your area like me and latch on finding a way to shoot with them and learn, in my state we have at least 4 of the best indoor shooters in the nation spread out and they are a wealth of knowledge. I use Sam Woltius as my indoor pro who has really helped and Blake Allen a semi pro 3d guy, both of them have been huge to helping me advance up the ladder.


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## jwilson48 (Apr 1, 2009)

Padgett said:


> Mahly, one of my best friends lives in the KC missouri area and I only get to see him every few months. I gave him a extra hinge and my hinge setup routine just like everyone here on archery talk, there is no extra special stuff for me to give him because I give everyone the same stuff that I use personally. A couple months would go by and he would come down to shoot with me and it would end up being a little shooting camp, I would tweek his bow setup and his form and his firing and by the end of the weekend he would be shooting awesome. Then a couple months would go by and he would show up and I would go through the same things again but each time he has progressed and now for the first time we shot last weekend and I really considered him a real hinge shooter. He isn't on my level of scoring competitively but to me Ken has become somebody that is actually enjoying what hinge shooting has to offer and he can go out and shoot a 3d course and be proud of the shooting.
> 
> This one on one is what I wish I could give to everybody here on archery talk, the articles are awesome and give you a look but when ken shows up to my house and we spend the afternoon shooting and he can watch me actually do what I do and I watch him the difference I can make is huge. One session isn't good enough, the fact that he can show up every once in a while is beyond important. In fact ken is now coming to 3d shoots on a regular basis with us and he even went to metropolis last summer for the entire week and shot with us during the super man shoot and the weekend asa stuff. The transformation that we all saw in him over that week was a awesome thing to see.
> 
> For you guys that have the opportunity to come and jump in my 3d group here in missouri you are always welcome, I teach school so my summer vacation is almost 3 months long and you can come and shoot with me for a few days if you want. I have a bbq grill that makes a good burger and steaks. Or just find somebody in your area like me and latch on finding a way to shoot with them and learn, in my state we have at least 4 of the best indoor shooters in the nation spread out and they are a wealth of knowledge. I use Sam Woltius as my indoor pro who has really helped and Blake Allen a semi pro 3d guy, both of them have been huge to helping me advance up the ladder.


You and my dad would get along great...he is a tournament fisherman not an archer, but when he gets on big fish he shares with everyone how he's catching them, what bait, etc, etc. everybody else thinks he's nuts because he doesn't keep any secret spots or anything. His response is "I want to play ball on an even playing field, giving them the knowledge, and still beating them is what makes you great". 

Kudos to you Padgett


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

EPLC said:


> "All fingers should be held with equal tightness on the release and not relaxed." ~ Larry Wise


??? I took that as hanging on to the release. I can just imagine relaxing my fingers having the release jerked out of my and banged into my bow or sent down range..... Did that with my TRU Ball ??? that's no longer made. Twice I did that. Now, I hook my fingers and they stay hooked.

And then Larry notes; "Remember that this is easiest when your draw-wrist is kept straight and forearm muscles are relaxed. Also, consistent archery form minimizes muscle and maximizes skeleton."

So the only way the draw wrist is kept straight in being relaxed..


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## ron w (Jan 5, 2013)

the idea that LW refers to in "not relaxed" is in reference to not using relaxation to facilitate the rotation of the release.


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## Sasquech (Dec 15, 2014)

Mmmmm Larry sounds like a back tension grip on the release


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## field14 (May 21, 2002)

SonnyThomas said:


> ??? I took that as hanging on to the release. I can just imagine relaxing my fingers having the release jerked out of my and banged into my bow or sent down range..... Did that with my TRU Ball ??? that's no longer made. Twice I did that. Now, I hook my fingers and they stay hooked.
> 
> And then Larry notes; "Remember that this is easiest when your draw-wrist is kept straight and forearm muscles are relaxed. Also, consistent archery form minimizes muscle and maximizes skeleton."
> 
> So the only way the draw wrist is kept straight in being relaxed..


Sonny, By "relaxed" Larry does NOT mean "letting go"...He likens this to taking your hand and using your fingers as the "hook" (connection) to a bucket full of sand. Then, you hook your fingers over the handle, bend your knees, keeping your arm straight and your "hook" in place and raise the bucket. IF your hand (hook) is relaxed, you can hold the bucket in place for a LONG TIME...BUT...if you tighten up that hand to try to hang on to the handle...you won't be abled to hold onto the bucket for very long at all.
The "relaxing" of the hand comes AFTER you reach FDP, by maintaining the "hook" and letting the tendons, etc stretch out while MAINTAINING the contact with the body of the release and NOT relaxing to the point of letting go of something!
RELAXING is NOT "letting go." THAT my friend is one of the main mis-interpretations of what Larry teaches and HOW he teaches it.
The same goes with a "bent but not locked bowarm"! Same idea. if you take your bowarm in normal position and then press your body weight against a post (with your bow hand in "holding a bow position) and RELAX, you can support your body weight for a long time...BUT...if you lock your elbow and tighten up, you will NOT hold your body position for but several seconds before you start shaking to almight beat the band!
TAUGHT in Larry Wise's Core Archery Academy...and when you FEEL it (like FEELING what transfer is), you then KNOW it. Otherwise it is a lot of lip service. How do I know? Been directly involved in 4 Larry Wise Core Archery Seminars with Larry Wise, and helped to teach 3 of them, that's how.

field14 (Tom D.)


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

Tom, all this BS over back tension being the blame of failure of use of the hinge is just that, BS. You've seen it. I've seen it. Many are their own worst enemy when it comes to using a hinge and trying back tension. Heck, I've been there, still there really. I use a hinge for chip shots on the 3D course and that's all and not when shooting State Sanctioned events.

How many are so fearful of the hinge that they have a death grip on it?
How many are so tense when first or even into using a hinge that nothing comes together?
How many use draw weight too heavy to start?
How many have draw length correct?
Beyond draw weight and draw length, how many have proper bow fit?
How many have the release arm in position so the rhomboids can be effective?
How many are using good form?
How many are gripping the bow properly?
How many really commit to using back tension with a hinge?
Of course, you can't justify commitment if you're not getting results and you can't get results if any of the above....


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## Lazarus (Sep 19, 2005)

field14 said:


> Sonny, By "relaxed" Larry does NOT mean "letting go"...


That right there is all I needed to read of that post.....

There are two basic parts to shooting a bow. There is pulling, and there is letting go. If you're pulling, you ain't letting go. And if you're letting go, you ain't pulling. 

Thanks need to go to the early pioneers in compound/release information. 

Even bigger thanks to those who continue to innovate and improve upon it. And they're not the same groups of people. 

:cheers:


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

Lazarus said:


> That right there is all I needed to read of that post.....
> 
> There are two basic parts to shooting a bow. There is pulling, and there is letting go. If you're pulling, you ain't letting go. And if you're letting go, you ain't pulling.
> 
> ...


That ain't what Tom is relating of.....


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## ron w (Jan 5, 2013)

EPLC said:


> "All fingers should be held with equal tightness on the release and not relaxed." ~ Larry Wise


 aaaand,..... how does that relate to what I posted.?.
just because both posts have a few words that are the same, doesn't mean that both contents are related to the same subject matter, specifically..
if I say, "the dog is brown" , someone else says "a dog is running" doesn't mean that the dog that is running, is brown, does it ?.


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## Sasquech (Dec 15, 2014)

I like (personal opinion) firing the hinge with no conscious or detectable hand manipulation it may not be you all 's preferred method but has helped me into the middle 290's on a vegas face am I where you all appear to be nope but I am on my way. Hi game 294 vegas face 600 95x on nfaa  have tried to understand what all this is about and I only have one thing I can ascribe it to everyone is afraid of multiple people being right. For me I shoot what works and when it doesn't o change it up simple as that


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## Lazarus (Sep 19, 2005)

Sasquech said:


> I like (personal opinion) firing the hinge with no conscious or detectable hand manipulation it may not be you all 's preferred method but has helped me into the middle 290's on a vegas face am I where you all appear to be nope but I am on my way. Hi game 294 vegas face 600 95x on nfaa have tried to understand what all this is about and I only have one thing I can ascribe it to everyone is afraid of multiple people being right. For me I shoot what works and when it doesn't o change it up simple as that


Hey Sas....:thumbs_up

You make a really good point by saying "no conscious or detectable hand manipulation." In attempt to have an uninterrupted/on topic discussion I'll say this; I've personally shot that way, it's certainly doable. There might be people who do it that are successful. Furthermore, and listen close, I'm going to bold it just so people don't miss it, *this discussion has never been about what's right, and what's wrong.* This is me personally; I don't want to be right, I want to be the best. When it comes to archery, I want to shoot the best, I want to give the best (most valuable) information. Nothing more. 

Not in an attempt to be right, but in attempt to be the best, I have developed a mindset that the technique you describe is an inferior technique. Why? I'll share with you.

(1)It requires a release setting so intricate that it is landing the shooter right on the borderline of a conscious release. No, I do not buy the voodoo about large muscle groups vs. small muscle groups etc. (That's my privilege, right?) It may be good classroom teaching but when put to the test on the shooting line where nothing less than absolute perfection is acceptable (if you want to win,) it fails. Furthermore it sets you right on the edge of being able to command the release. Isn't that one of the issues that the mythical "back tension" *firing* method is supposed to steer a shooter clear of? I don't have to hammer that, if you really open your eyes, that's bad teaching.

(2)The technique encourages taking the shooter out of alignment. Period. I feel no need to expound on something so obviously flawed when it comes to shooting a bow to perfection.

(3)Last, and it's been pointed out countless times, "back tension" is an aspect of *every* shot made with a hand held bow. It is an aspect that you have to work on if you desire to achieve perfection. "Back Tension" has absolutely nothing to do with the specific act of firing a release. They are two separate acts in the shot process! Whoever first mixed the two acts was in error and is responsible for a lot of really bad archery teaching. Again, I don't really care what their name is/was, it's faulty teaching. Those who continue to teach it are guilty of the same. 

Sasquech, good luck on your road to improvement. I like your attitude. It's my belief that you'll reach the goals you're striving for. I am totally convinced that you'll do it faster if you leave the elementary teachings behind you. Set your release with some travel and utilize what you've learned so far to develop a perfect shot. If you choose not to pursue similar techniques to the very best in the business that is your choice. You may make it to the top with the technique you are currently using, if so, you are to be sincerely congratulated. 

:cheers:


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## ron w (Jan 5, 2013)

"back tension", as it is defined and known in archery, refers to the use of your rhomboid muscles in either drawing the bow or contracting them or one of them, to produce the necessary rotation that fore a hinge.
if there is any other definition of "back tension", as used in archery, I do not know of it.
in it's use as a firing engine, it is simply an extension of the same use in drawing the bow. 
the consideration as to separation of "acts in the shot process", is a "named phase" for the clarification of the difference between drawing and it being used as a firing engine.
in either case, both drawing the bow and firing the release, is done by the use of the same muscle group, namely the "rhomboids", which are the main characters in both applications of "back tension".
consequently, it has become understood, that "back tension" can and does mean, "drawing the bow with the assistance of your rhomboids", and "firing the release, producing the necessary rotation by contraction of the release side rhomboid", in combination. 
if you choose to consider that they are two different acts, within the shot process, I have no problem with that, but I would then ask....what would you call the act of using your rhomboid in contraction to produce the rotation necessary for firing the release ?. it is the same set of muscles being used and they are working in the same physiological manor, in both applications.


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## Lazarus (Sep 19, 2005)

To the top for a friend to see. :cheers:


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## unclejane (Jul 22, 2012)

Lazarus said:


> *this discussion has never been about what's right, and what's wrong.*


Ah, but then you go on to say (I'll bold it for you for emphasis):


> I have developed a mindset that the technique you describe *is an inferior technique*.


... inferior *for you*? Or inferior *period*? For want of that mistake, you would have almost convinced me. But this conciliatory attitude unravels even more from here and gets worse, let's take a look:



> (1)It requires a release setting so intricate that it is landing the shooter right on the borderline of a conscious release.


Nonsense. One of my Honey Do's was setup by Forrest Carter himself and it's not "intricately" setup at all. My other Honey Do is setup by me and it's even slightly less "intricate". No borderline hinges in my bag, and I shoot them with PBT with no problems. I'm sure other PBT shooters' hinges could be inspected and a similar finding could be made with theirs.



> No, I do not buy the voodoo about large muscle groups vs. small muscle groups etc. (That's my privilege, right?)


If you don't accept the notion of using large muscle groups for large tasks, well... there's not a whole lot that can be done for you on this point.



> (2)The technique encourages taking the shooter out of alignment. Period. I feel no need to expound on something so obviously flawed when it comes to shooting a bow to perfection.


Nope. Completely and demonstrably wrong. The "rotating" through the shot is very VERY small; alignment presents no problem if you do it right.



> Again, I don't really care what their name is/was, it's faulty teaching. Those who continue to teach it are guilty of the same.


Notice how we're back again to "what's right and what's wrong". Isn't that interesting? Didn't you say this thread *wasn't* about that? Of course you did - see above. But yet here you are, declaring that you know "what's right and what's wrong" with "PBT" - "it's faulty teaching". So your post here really *is* about "what's right and what's wrong" isn't it?

LS


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## EPLC (May 21, 2002)

I


ron w said:


> "back tension", as it is defined and known in archery, refers to the use of your rhomboid muscles in either drawing the bow or contracting them or one of them, to produce the necessary rotation that fore a hinge.
> if there is any other definition of "back tension", as used in archery, I do not know of it.
> in it's use as a firing engine, it is simply an extension of the same use in drawing the bow.
> the consideration as to separation of "acts in the shot process", is a "named phase" for the clarification of the difference between drawing and it being used as a firing engine.
> ...


One problem with this is that I do not draw the bow with a rotational movement. I draw by closing the elbow joint while setting the rhomboids. I can also do this without setting the rhomboids.


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## montigre (Oct 13, 2008)

I was ploughing through some past video footage I had saved and came across this piece on the use of back tension discussed by Dan M and Chance B for the old BowJunky Pro Reality series they were running. They both give a very good description of how any hand-held release is very susceptable to subtle changes in hand tension and position which has an immense influence on your arrow's final impact.

Dan then shows how he executes his trigger release using back tension by allowing the tension to "bleed" out of his forearm and hand while adding continual pressure to the back muscles.


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## ron w (Jan 5, 2013)

EPLC said:


> I
> One problem with this is that I do not draw the bow with a rotational movement. I draw by closing the elbow joint while setting the rhomboids. I can also do this without setting the rhomboids.


 are you trying to say, "your upper arm doesn't move in an arc that pivots at your shoulder, when you draw ?. it most certainly does, right ?. tell me what causes your arm to move in that arc ?.


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## Lazarus (Sep 19, 2005)

montigre said:


> I was ploughing through some past video footage I had saved and came across this piece on the use of back tension discussed by Dan M and Chance B for the old BowJunky Pro Reality series they were running. They both give a very good description of how any hand-held release is very susceptable to subtle changes in hand tension and position which has an immense influence on your arrow's final impact.
> 
> Dan then shows how he executes his trigger release using back tension by allowing the tension to "bleed" out of his forearm and hand while adding *continual* pressure to the back muscles.


I remember when this video first came out, it's very good. Thanks montigre for posting it. 

The key word in what you said was "continual" pressure. It's not an every changing tension from the back, common sense tells us what pulling harder (with our back) through the shot does. It takes you out of alignment, even if ever so slightly. But then 1/32 of an inch at the back may translate into 6 inches at 80 yards. 

Great stuff. :cheers:


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## unclejane (Jul 22, 2012)

EPLC said:


> I
> One problem with this is that I do not draw the bow with a rotational movement. I draw by closing the elbow joint while setting the rhomboids. I can also do this without setting the rhomboids.


Actually you do. If you're using the technique taught by AW, as I do, you're still doing a "rotational" movement, just not an intentional, pronounced one. Same if you pull through the shot at the end...

LS


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## Rick! (Aug 10, 2008)

Lazarus said:


> I remember when this video first came out, it's very good. Thanks montigre for posting it.
> 
> The key word in what you said was "continual" pressure. It's not an every changing tension from the back, common sense tells us what pulling harder (with our back) through the shot does. It takes you out of alignment, even if ever so slightly. But then 1/32 of an inch at the back may translate into 6 inches at 80 yards.
> 
> Great stuff. :cheers:


The 1/32" misalignment on a 25" distance from nock to rest at full draw is closer to 3.6" at 80 yards than the stated 6", so there musta been some wind (kinda like in here  At 20yds that translates to 0.9". 
So, if a shooter is very consistent in their release method, a simple sight windage adjustment will put it down the middle, without 20+ pages and way too many threads on this stuff.


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## unclejane (Jul 22, 2012)

Rick! said:


> The 1/32" misalignment on a 25" distance from nock to rest at full draw is closer to 3.6" at 80 yards than the stated 6", so there musta been some wind (kinda like in here  At 20yds that translates to 0.9".
> So, if a shooter is very consistent in their release method, a simple sight windage adjustment will put it down the middle, without 20+ pages and way too many threads on this stuff.


The claim of "pulling out of alignment" is simple nonsense, as I said. Laz doesn't even use the method so he ultimately has no idea how it affects "shooting a bow to perfection" one way or the other. So his claim can be dismissed as-is with no further consideration. 

In my particular case, it actually helps my accuracy significantly and conceptually involves no rotating of any kind. The actual rotation that does occur makes no noticeable change in my alignment that I can detect.

LS


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## EPLC (May 21, 2002)

montigre said:


> I was ploughing through some past video footage I had saved and came across this piece on the use of back tension discussed by Dan M and Chance B for the old BowJunky Pro Reality series they were running. They both give a very good description of how any hand-held release is very susceptable to subtle changes in hand tension and position which has an immense influence on your arrow's final impact.
> 
> Dan then shows how he executes his trigger release using back tension by allowing the tension to "bleed" out of his forearm and hand while adding continual pressure to the back muscles.


Yes, very good explanation. Note that he does use hand and arm manipulation/relaxation to get the shot setup properly... which is on the very edge before execution with BT. At this point it takes very little to get the shot off. 



ron w said:


> are you trying to say, "your upper arm doesn't move in an arc that pivots at your shoulder, when you draw ?. it most certainly does, right ?. tell me what causes your arm to move in that arc ?.


I'm saying that I use the Alistair Whittingham method which he explains in detail here -> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d5BYtDLFcKM&index=7&list=PLAVFmM4j7zpa1SLMJlmlJ1wtXexZtJS6S I highly recommend this video.



Lazarus said:


> I remember when this video first came out, it's very good. Thanks montigre for posting it.
> 
> The key word in what you said was "continual" pressure. It's not an every changing tension from the back, common sense tells us what pulling harder (with our back) through the shot does. It takes you out of alignment, even if ever so slightly. But then 1/32 of an inch at the back may translate into 6 inches at 80 yards.
> 
> Great stuff. :cheers:


It also should be pointed out that they went into great lengths to point out that there are many ways to execute the release and none are incorrect if they are working for you.


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