# Torque Tuning revisited



## Huntinsker

Pretty impressive results. Thanks for sharing.


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## grantmac

This is full torque both directions at 40yds:







Rest full forward for me as well.
Biggest improvement I'm seeing is on hills and I have a theory about that.
I feel torque tuning is like creep tuning, you really only need it when you aren't shooting perfect shots.

Grant


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## SonnyThomas

Impressive, Grant....


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## grantmac

Picture is turned on it's left side. Still happy as can be with that though. Not sure on the two arrival angles although there was a little wind and the bale is a bit shot out.
I have thoughts about how this relates to Hill that I'll do a separate post about. 

Grant


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## SonnyThomas

You see those arrows in my target bag? I'd have to stop to see where the arrow was actually at. Nocks pointing this way and that way.


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## hookedonbow

Pardon my ignorance but if you torque the bow at full draw and shoot wont the string come off the cams?


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## SonnyThomas

You don't torque the bow that much. Use common sense. I was using a 30" stab and the end was maybe 3" over.


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## grantmac

I wouldn't do it on a bow with very high let off while sitting in the valley. My sight was pointing at the edge of the 50cm at 40yds, that is how much torque there was.
Sonny, try it with a bareshaft at 20....

Grant


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## Skeeter 58

Some interesting stuff guys. Thanks for posting that.


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## Reed

It looks like the rest ended up over your wrist. If so that is about the same place that Frank Perison used to talk about placing the rest as it was the most Torque neutral for him

reed


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## salmon killer

I shot great with a over draw back in the day and rest position was very critical.


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## skynight

I bought the hamskea overdraw to play with this. Didn't need it, ended up rest full forward and Hogg father sight in three notches.
Started all the way out on sight and 3/4 travel aft on rest. Got a newer version of the same bow and started with these settings, no adjustment needed. Pretty cool concept.


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## dk_ace1

Interesting. I started over on my bow setup a few months ago. Previously, I had the rest fully forward (no science to it, that's just where I started when I put it on and I never moved it). When I set up this time I started with it fully back assuming that would be a more forgiving location. I haven't done this torque test yet to verify, but I've been feeling like the bow is more critical right now. I assumed that it was in my head because it's supposed to be more forgiving set further back. I need to really test this fully now because it may not be in my head after all.

D


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## SonnyThomas

dk, this torque tuning depends on many things, bow, rest, arrow, sight location, and maybe more. Like above, I've two bows that just plain like the rest set far back. One, the UltraTec, I had the standard QuikTune farther back than it is now and it still shot great. Now, I have two bows that like the rest forward, one more than the other it seems. Amazing though is watching the spread come down so that torqued either way the arrow hits the X ring.


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## dk_ace1

I'm going to do the full test to see what my bow likes. The interesting thing about this thread is that several of you guys have some bows that actually have less impact from torque when the rest is forward. All of the explanations I've read concerning torque tuning explain why there is less effect from torque when the rest is further back. My feeling that my bow is actually more critical since I moved the rest back may not just be in my head since you guys have bows where there is less torque effect with the rest forward. Time to do a real test with my setup and see what I find...

D


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## ouluckydogu

Will be trying this on my bows! What distance are you starting at? 10 yds ,20 yds
thanks
Lucky


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## SonnyThomas

I started with 15 yards, but sure of my arrows staying on the target. I then moved to 20 yards for testing/moving the arrow rest.


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## rattlinman

tagged for later. Thanks for posting!


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## bigHUN

all the tuning, bareshaft, creep, french and torque tuning further is better, longest possible distance you can shoot accurately.
I am doing all the tuning at 50 meters with a 1/2" painter tape (I am not saying I hit that tape all the time :\ but pretty close), nock tuning 70-80.


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## whiz-Oz

You can of course, do exactly the same thing with the sight extension.


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## SonnyThomas

whiz-Oz said:


> You can of course, do exactly the same thing with the sight extension.


See other of Torque Tuning. Noted is moving the sight in and out, but moving the rest well seems to give the most effect.


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## grantmac

whiz-Oz said:


> You can of course, do exactly the same thing with the sight extension.


I prefer to use the extension to create the best sight picture and leave the tuning to the rest.

Grant


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## whiz-Oz

SonnyThomas said:


> See other of Torque Tuning. Noted is moving the sight in and out, but moving the rest well seems to give the most effect.


Actually, they're a geometric progression on either, so the effect is identical. Once you've got the right sight extension or rest position, the torque cancellation will be perfect at all distances. 

Grant has the only real reason to favour the rest issue if you've got the ability to extend it. 

As long as you do one or the other, you've actually achieved the only real measure of "forgiveness" in a bow, other than ensuring that your last half inch of nock travel is flat. 

Two archer faults (torquing and variation in hold pressure) induced sight misalignment effects virtually disappears. 

If you're not tuning out torque effects, you'd best have perfect form.


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## duc

Bit bored are we Andrew.


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## SonnyThomas

whiz-Oz said:


> Actually, they're a geometric progression on either, so the effect is identical. Once you've got the right sight extension or rest position, the torque cancellation will be perfect at all distances.


Tim Gillingham and Jesse Broadwater wrote of this Torque Tuning and both gave of the rest getting the best and most results. So you know more they do?


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## whiz-Oz

duc said:


> Bit bored are we Andrew.


It happens when you're home with the flu.


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## duc

That's so funny. So am I.


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## Capra

Does the sight extension follow the same adjustment system?

In other words Torque the Stab Left, shot hits left. Then sight extension is moved back.


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## SonnyThomas

Neither Tim or Jesse gave note of the sight length when torqueing. I was just happy with what I found.


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## RCR_III

Capra said:


> Does the sight extension follow the same adjustment system?
> 
> In other words Torque the Stab Left, shot hits left. Then sight extension is moved back.


I haven't found it this way in regards to moving the rest. What I notice when I do this is the one normal arrow and one torqued arrow grouping will widen back out if you go too far in one direction, but I haven't seen them cross over sides like with a rest.


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## Capra

OK

I spent several hrs working on this today. After this session I was left a little confused.

No doubt I was able to find the sweet spot by moving the rest all that way back and the all there way forward. And the of course massaging it around.

Here is why I am confused. On my bow I found that the sweet spot was actually almost all the way forward, Yet if you look at the freakshow rest and the hamskea overdraw clearly the problem they had was the ability to move the rest back not forward. Additionally it sounds like a few of you guys ended up with the rest in a similar position as mine.

There was no time today to play with the sight extension.

For reference Im shooting:

Bow tech Insanity CPX


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## RCR_III

Capra said:


> OK
> 
> I spent several hrs working on this today. After this session I was left a little confused.
> 
> No doubt I was able to find the sweet spot by moving the rest all that way back and the all there way forward. And the of course massaging it around.
> 
> Here is why I am confused. On my bow I found that the sweet spot was actually almost all the way forward, Yet if you look at the freakshow rest and the hamskea overdraw clearly the problem they had was the ability to move the rest back not forward. Additionally it sounds like a few of you guys ended up with the rest in a similar position as mine.
> 
> There was no time today to play with the sight extension.
> 
> For reference Im shooting:
> 
> Bow tech Insanity CPX


What length arrows and what is your draw length? 

On longer arrows, I've found I need the rest a little further forward than with shorter ones. Each bow can be different too. Different flex points in the risers and also how far back the limbs come. 

On the older Pro Elites, Jesse noted needing the rest much further back than on the Vantage Elites.


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## whiz-Oz

SonnyThomas said:


> Tim Gillingham and Jesse Broadwater wrote of this Torque Tuning and both gave of the rest getting the best and most results. So you know more they do?


Best and most results? 

So, when torquing the bow results in NO shift of arrow impact, there can be better and more than that? 
I'm impressed. 
Tell me how zero is better than zero? I guess if I was selling rests, it's better to say that buying a rest is better than a no cost solution of finding the right sight length.


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## whiz-Oz

Capra said:


> Does the sight extension follow the same adjustment system?
> 
> In other words Torque the Stab Left, shot hits left. Then sight extension is moved back.


If you've torqued left, lined back up on the target and the arrow has hit left of the target, your sight extension has to move out. 

If you can't work it out, get really close to the target butt. I'm talking within three yards. Put a dot on the target and then try gentle torquing in one direction stepping your sight extension in one increment each shot. 

You'll find the spot where it makes virtually no difference if you have your bow torqued or not. If you're unlucky, the absolute point might be in between fixed increments, but then you may be able to shift your rest to fine tune it. 

You don't have to take my word for it, or anyone elses, however within a few minutes you'll be able to see if it's cheaper to use what you have at no cost, or go buy an adjustable rest to achieve exactly the same thing. 

It's not even something that requires rocket surgery to work out by yourself. You just need to know that it works and you can find out where.


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## grantmac

With the bows I've tuned my rest usually ends up over the grip throat otherwise I hit opposite the torque.
I've been meaning to try just a little counter-torque impact to see if it groups a little tighter when my float isn't the best. I don't have any research to indicate it would but a gut feeling it might.


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## Capra

Bow tech Insanity CPX
RH 26.5" 62 Lbs
Arrows: ACC 349,G nocks, 4 Pro Max vanes, 25 " Long.
Hamskea Micro Hunter rest
Spott Hogg Tommy Hogg sight ( I may put my CBE with the extension bar on to find out where the sight needs to be since I can't adjust the tommy hogg much)


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## Capra

whiz-Oz said:


> If you've torqued left, lined back up on the target and the arrow has hit left of the target, your sight extension has to move out.
> 
> If you can't work it out, get really close to the target butt. I'm talking within three yards. Put a dot on the target and then try gentle torquing in one direction stepping your sight extension in one increment each shot.
> 
> You'll find the spot where it makes virtually no difference if you have your bow torqued or not. If you're unlucky, the absolute point might be in between fixed increments, but then you may be able to shift your rest to fine tune it.
> 
> You don't have to take my word for it, or anyone elses, however within a few minutes you'll be able to see if it's cheaper to use what you have at no cost, or go buy an adjustable rest to achieve exactly the same thing.
> 
> It's not even something that requires rocket surgery to work out by yourself. You just need to know that it works and you can find out where.


Im not complaining, Actually quite the opposite. Im a little embarrassed that I never knew how to do this. It is great to have it figured out.

Ill work on the sight extension next time out.

Thanks for all of the advice !


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## vito9999

Right handed shooter moving sight out on dove tail will move arrow left. With 6 inch dove tail at 20 yds poi will move from low right to high left across the target face as you move sight fro. All the way back to the fed most position. Now its not a lot of movement 4-5 inches r-l maybe 4 bottom to top. I also know have far less torque on my Impact and Arena then my Supra or Anarchy. I do put a paper clip out in my sight picture to check for grip induced torque (not sure if I got that from Sonny or Padgett). Don't leave there more than a day or two put it sure helps clear up L/R issues.


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## SonnyThomas

From Tim Gillingham's article;
"Problem:Two things happen when we torque the bow, we are moving the sight one way and the arrow the opposite. The reason we get an impact change due to torque is that we are making compensations with the sight when we torque the bow and therefore the arrow is going to hit off line.
Solution: *If we can put the arrow rest in the right position we can find the “sweet spot” where the two actions(moving the sight one way and the arrow the opposite direction) cancel each other out.* In laymans terms, this means I can set the rest and sight position to a point that no matter how I torque the bow left or right, as long as the sight is on target the arrow will hit in the middle where I am aiming.

How is this possible? How do I achieve this?Usually what has to happen in most setups is that the rest has to come back and the sight may have to be moved forward or back to fine tune it. *The rest is the primary adjustment because it is close to the nocking point and therefore less of a movement at the rest will make more of a change downrange."*

So, the rest is the primary adjustment and has more effect. Generally, we move a sight with lens to get the best possible clarity. How far the sight can be moved is what the shooter can accept. 

My answer stands.......


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## smokin'dually

whiz-Oz said:


> So, when torquing the bow results in NO shift of arrow impact, there can be better and more than that?
> I'm impressed.
> Tell me how zero is better than zero? I guess if I was selling rests, it's better to say that buying a rest is better than a no cost solution of finding the right sight length.


So if we agree that the rest wil get the same result, why would we not go that route and leave the sight adjustment for the best sight picture?


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## whiz-Oz

smokin'dually said:


> So if we agree that the rest wil get the same result, why would we not go that route and leave the sight adjustment for the best sight picture?


Essentially, you can do either rest or sight extension adjustment to get what you want as they achieve the same result. 
What you choose to do depends on what you prioritise and also what you personally decide is the best sight picture. 

Some people are super slaved to the idea that the view through the peep must have the scope ring nestled closely into the peep aperture. Other archers like GRIV actively ignore that advice and will tell you that it's not that important. I thought it was odd also, after having grown up with rifle peep sights being shown to be super accurate for competition without having that requirement. 

So feel free to go with whatever choice you make, but just know that there is more than one way to achieve torque cancellation.


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## whiz-Oz

SonnyThomas said:


> From Tim Gillingham's article;
> "Problem:Two things happen when we torque the bow, we are moving the sight one way and the arrow the opposite. The reason we get an impact change due to torque is that we are making compensations with the sight when we torque the bow and therefore the arrow is going to hit off line.
> Solution: *If we can put the arrow rest in the right position we can find the “sweet spot” where the two actions(moving the sight one way and the arrow the opposite direction) cancel each other out.* In laymans terms, this means I can set the rest and sight position to a point that no matter how I torque the bow left or right, as long as the sight is on target the arrow will hit in the middle where I am aiming.
> 
> How is this possible? How do I achieve this?Usually what has to happen in most setups is that the rest has to come back and the sight may have to be moved forward or back to fine tune it. *The rest is the primary adjustment because it is close to the nocking point and therefore less of a movement at the rest will make more of a change downrange."*
> 
> So, the rest is the primary adjustment and has more effect. Generally, we move a sight with lens to get the best possible clarity. How far the sight can be moved is what the shooter can accept.
> 
> My answer stands.......




Torque and displacement is a linear equation. How you set up the sight relationship to account for it is irrelevant. If you have to buy an new rest, does it matter that you could achieve the same thing at the same cost as anything else? 

If you can achieve perfect compensation at no cost, there's no superior method. 

This isn't a new concept. Torque compensation was discovered and published in books over a decade ago. It didn't mention rest position then either.


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## Bobmuley

Shouldn't we be able to mathematically calculate this?


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## Capra

I think you could however it is dependent on your personal body geometry so it is easier just to spend time at the range to dial it in.


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## SonnyThomas

Bobmuley said:


> Shouldn't we be able to mathematically calculate this?


I doubt anyone could figure some formula. Of my own, two bows have the rest back something of 2 3/8" and another has the rest all the way forward and perhaps .050" too much forward (the bow I did the test with). Another wants the rest more forward than the rest will allow which would have the arrow too short. The ata of bows are of 37 1/2", 37 5/8", 38 3/8", 38 1/2" with brace heights of 7" to 7 3/4". Two are single cam bows and two are binary cam bows. Draw weights range from 50 pounds, 55 pounds, 62 pounds and 67 pounds. Two were done with a 8" stabilizer and two were done using a 30" stabilizer. Two were shot off the string and two used a d-loop. One was "torque tuned" with a 8" stabilizer and gave the same accuracy with a 30" stabilizer.... 

The article Tim Gillingham wrote gave Jesse Broadwater the credit. Jesse felt Tim's rest should be about 1" back and what Tim found was 2" back. Reo Wilde told of torque tuning making no difference...
Human factor? I'm 5' 11" tall with a 29" draw. Tim Gillingham stands 6'6" and has a 31 or 32" draw.

Of testing, it's work, time consuming. One needs a rest that can be moved without having to worry about height change. I used levels for bow, arrow and rest, tested for height placement of arrow each time the rest was moved and corrected as needed.


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## highwaynorth

Reed said:


> It looks like the rest ended up over your wrist. If so that is about the same place that Frank Perison used to talk about placing the rest as it was the most Torque neutral for him
> 
> reed


Yep, basically right above your wrist.


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## Bobmuley

SonnyThomas said:


> I doubt anyone could figure some formula. Of my own, two bows have the rest back something of 2 3/8" and another has the rest all the way forward and perhaps .050" too much forward (the bow I did the test with). Another wants the rest more forward than the rest will allow which would have the arrow too short. The ata of bows are of 37 1/2", 37 5/8", 38 3/8", 38 1/2" with brace heights of 7" to 7 3/4". Two are single cam bows and two are binary cam bows. Draw weights range from 50 pounds, 55 pounds, 62 pounds and 67 pounds. Two were done with a 8" stabilizer and two were done using a 30" stabilizer.
> 
> 
> 
> Its not too much work, much less work than shooting in 3rd axis settings.
> 
> But, I've always found that I'm quite limited in what I can really do with a rest (hoyts) without plopping down a couple benjamins on a Freakshow to find out. mathematically, I would be able to (and they could market as such) determine if that rest would be better suited to me.
> 
> I'm a medium-wristed shooter and have pretty good luck just short (1/4-1/2") of the berger hole and a shorter sight bar.
Click to expand...


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## SonnyThomas

whiz-Oz said:


> Torque and displacement is a linear equation. How you set up the sight relationship to account for it is irrelevant. If you have to buy an new rest, does it matter that you could achieve the same thing at the same cost as anything else?
> 
> If you can achieve perfect compensation at no cost, there's no superior method.
> 
> This isn't a new concept. Torque compensation was discovered and published in books over a decade ago. It didn't mention rest position then either.


I performed Torque Tuning as it was presented to me. I used existing rests to torque tune. My sight with 4X lens is set to give me the best sight picture.

I presented what I found. If you don't like it, take it somewhere else.


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## whiz-Oz

Torque tuning has some issues which are pretty straightforward. 
However, because of the relationships of the rest, sight radius and point about which the torque happens, it will be a complex calculation. 
It's just easier to do it. 

Consider that torquing left will toss the arrow left. However, because we get a range of bows with different brace height and deflex, the effect is more in some configurations than others. 

Now, consider that the arrow rest can be configured in front of, or behind the pivot point, torquing left with the contact point behind the pivot point will point the arrow in the opposite direction. With the arrow rest contact point in front of the pivot point, not only do you get the torqued arrow movement, you get the steering of the rest to the left as well. Double points. 

The rest position and sight extension BOTH can be used to make the aiming offset compensate exactly for the torque offset.
However, only one can be practically moved back and forth from the pivot point. 
Some bows will have a brace height and reflex/deflex combination which will let you achieve the compensation point with little movement. It's really a geometry problem with two solutions. 
The sight extension method will adjust where you aim the bow to compensate exactly for the torque you've put in. 
The rest position will adjust the alignment of the arrow to exactly compensate for the sight offset you've induced by torquing the bow.

Note that both methods relate to the sight extension length and changing it with either method will affect your torque compensation. 
If this doesn't make sense, if you had a sight extension that was four foot long and you torque left exactly 1 degree, when you line up the dot and scope, you're going to be pointing an arrow several lanes over to the right. No amount of rest movement will compensate for that. 

GRIV told me in August that he didn't find that the sight extension did much. However, we realised that his primary method of torque compensation was with the arrow rest position. 

If you set up a bow with the arrow rest primarily in the sweet spot where it's going to do much of the compensation by itself (it has a shorter radius and a reversed movement direction to the sight extension) then the arrow rest is doing the majority of the world already. You'll find that you have a bow which responds less to sight length extension because it has less compensation to achieve. It will still be there though.

Without the ability to move the rest a heap, you'll rely on sight extension to do ALL the work. It will obviously affect your sight picture. With your sight picture set like you want it exactly, you'll have to shift the rest only. Bad luck if that means extra cash to buy an extended rest like a freakshow. 

What you choose to do will depend exactly on your choice. If you're slavishly tied to a sight picture, rest adjustment is your option. 

If you discover that you can shoot with whatever sight picture you can achieve, you can use sight extension. If you're lucky, it will work with an exact screw hole. If you're almost as lucky, your rest adjustment will get you the rest of the way if an exact screw hole isn't quite perfect.
If you've got a freakshow, you've quite likely got enough adjustment to do everything with the rest. 

The only thing to remember is that it's worth doing and when you achieve it, it's like magic. People can't believe that an arrow torqued, but shot well, will still hold the ten ring when it's flying like a drunk duck down a bobsled track. 

Both methods on their own will achieve compensation, but depending obviously, if you have a sight arrangment that you like, you're best to adjust the rest position. 
If you happen to have a bow which has geometry combination which requires that the arrow rest be moved way back, you might have no choice but to go with some method of relocating the contact point. 
If you're lucky, moving with a regular rest adjustment will do the trick.


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## SonnyThomas

More than likely most rests give enough room to satisfy most torque tuning.. Just as likely most could mount the arrow rest at mid point and be quite content with results...

Adjustment mount for my Limb Driver checked 1.025" front to back. Noted was enough for 2 bows and maybe not enough for 1 bow. Note blade in first picture.....Again for those attempting Torque Tuning with the arrow rest make sure your arrow is long enough when moving the rest forward. 

My UltraTec (factory overdraw riser) initially had a standard QuikTune 3000 arrow rest. I noted I shot in the rest, moving it back almost 2 3/8". Later, I installed Hoyt QuikTune 3000s made for both the UltraTec and MagnaTec. These do not allow the rest to be moved forward. Both were close to what I had with a standard QuikTune. Measured, say set back 2 3/16". I believe one checks 2 5/16". Both the UltraTec and MagnaTec are of year 2000 and retired.
2nd pic, note launch arm block to riser shelf. Not a lot of clearance and the back mounting hole too much for this.


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## SWGAShooter

Great info. Tagged for later.


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## MandK

Me too, tag


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## quattro

quite interesting... I will try it on my new fanatic 3.0, lets see what sort of result I get.


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## bowdad!

Let me get the process right. After the bow is purposefully torqued the pin will move in the direction of the torque?
While maintaining the torque, is the pin moved back to the intended target before the shot process?


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## grantmac

bowdad! said:


> Let me get the process right. After the bow is purposefully torqued the pin will move in the direction of the torque?
> While maintaining the torque, is the pin moved back to the intended target before the shot process?


Yes.


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## SonnyThomas

bowdad! said:


> Let me get the process right. After the bow is purposefully torqued the pin will move in the direction of the torque?
> While maintaining the torque, is the pin moved back to the intended target before the shot process?


It's you centering the pin in the peep, not actually moving pin. Don't over torque. Try it a couple of times without firing so to get the hang of it. Go back to first post and see picture. I had a circle on my lens to gage to the bolt. One could fashion a *torque indicator* so to use as a gage to whatever is reasonable - see that Post/Thread


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## bowdad!

Let me open another can of worms here. I am a bit new to high tech tuning so feel free to criticize my thought process. The torque tuning process is carried out to match the pivot point of the arrow on the rest to the shooters natural pivot point. In my minds eye this is the point where the shooter could create torque that would/could be transfered to the arrow causing it to point in an unintended direction while on the rest at the time of the release. Correct me if I am wrong. Torque tuning is an attempt to marry the two pivot points so that the shooters torque effects the arrow/rest the least. My real question is can this be accomplished shooting through paper in the same manner with controlled torque, given that the bow is paper tuned and shooting bullet holes prior to the test?


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## SonnyThomas

Understand, this process was brought forward by two great archers, Tim Gillingham and Jesse Broadwater. I would think they have the best torque free grips in the world. What this process is, it helps eliminate or reduce induced torque by the shooter.

Paper tuning is but one step of tuning a bow. Once my bow is tuned I don't care about paper tears. It's like bare shaft tuning. You don't bare shaft tune and go back to paper.

Torque tuning is moving the rest and/or sight forwards and backwards. If a lens then you want the sight set for best clarity. The rest is then used to remove what torque error you can. If by what I found you could torque tune and then come back with paper tuning.

Helpful?


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## bowdad!

Thanks for your reply. I was just wondering if a well tuned bow could be torqued to create a tear and the rest moved backwards or forwards to remove the tear while the bow is being torqued. I am going to try taking a paper tuned bullet hole shooter and torque a paper tear and see if I can use the rest position, backward and forward, to remove the tear while the bow is torqued. I am guessing that a bow that is truly torque tuned would shoot a bullet hole through paper when torque is applied. I will have to try it. Probably another wasted day in the shop but the weather is not much good for anything else. I recently removed a hunting rest that gave me fits trying to get a bullet hole. It was mounted close to the riser. I installed a lizzard tongue rest and started all the way back and realized that I could shoot it with reckless abandon and get a perfect bullet hole. I put the hunting rest back on just for the heck of it and moved it all the way back mirroring the lizard tongue and had the same results. I have no idea how this or if this will transfer down range but as soon as I get some decent weather I plan to see how my theory holds up. It may save some time and trips to the bag or not.


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## SonnyThomas

You have found no different than I. Go back to the top of this page and see my UltraTec - 3.87" AAE Vane. That rest is set back 2 3/8" and the bow outstandingly accurate. His magnesium brother, the MagnaTec, is every bit as accurate with the rest set back. I have them both. To cut down the reading, I shot the rest in. 2000 to 2003 I didn't know Torque Tuning existed....Yep, moved the rest back and saw better results and just kept moving until the rest looked ridiculously too far back, but I left it that way. Note the Limb Saver dampeners on the guide rod. I put these on to make sure the cable didn't hit the rest. I had the standard QuikTune 3000 on initially and had it set back even more. I placed and won a bunch with that bow.


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## andyj2013

Very informative


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## HIArcher

Is it correct to assume that torque tuning does not work with drop away rests? I did not see any mention of drop away rests in the thread.


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## SonnyThomas

I used a drop rest for this "revisit" post, Limb Driver Pro. See pictures of rest. I have since torque tuned 3 more bows, all having drop rests.

Tim Gillingham uses a blade in conjunction with a Hamskea drop rest with overdraw.


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## HIArcher

SonnyThomas said:


> I used a drop rest for this "revisit" post, Limb Driver Pro. See pictures of rest. I have since torque tuned 3 more bows, all having drop rests.
> 
> Tim Gillingham uses a blade in conjunction with a Hamskea drop rest with overdraw.


Sorry, I must have missed that in your pics. Good to know, I have 2 Limb Driver Elites and they are currently all the way forward. I will do some experimenting with one of the bows and see if I can minimize my torque. Thanks for your help.


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## Krakalaka

So, do you need to torque tune each arrow set up? I know that when I went from the Vegas fatty indoor arrrow(27) to my 3D 22 series, I had to re-paper tune my bow. Is the torque tune for the bow, or for the AND arrow combination?


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## SonnyThomas

Torque tune is for the bow. Arrow makes no difference unless maybe badly underspined.


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## Krakalaka

Thanks. All your info is great, I have a ton to learn.


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## Oceanland

Help me understand here. When I torque right (like in the pic) my arrows hit left. I made the pic below to understand better what is happening with the torque tuning.

I don't understand how the effect of torque could be zeroed. Or even more, shifted to opposite side effect so that arrows would fly in the direction of torque.
To me it looks like moving sight closer and closer I would get less POI error, but it would still be there. On my setup I can't move the rest more forward.

Also, people say that moving rest has more effect compared to sight. I believe it but do not understand it. Especially having dove tail sight gives a lot room for distance adjustment.

Is there something more to it that the pic is not telling?
For example the angle between direction of string pull and the arrow on the rest.


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## whiz-Oz

Wow. 
That's making things a bit complex. 
All you need to know is that it works whether you believe it does, or understand how it does. 

If you have issues figuring it out, then just torque your bow left a couple of degrees intentionally and hold it every single shot. Move either your rest or sight extension as far one way as it can go and go shoot some arrows close to the target butt. Then move the rest or extension as far as it can in the other direction and torque your bow the same way again. 

You will notice a significant difference. Hopefully with arrows landing either side of where you were aiming. 

It doesn't take much to work out that somewhere between each travel extreme is the sweet spot. 

Here's page 87 from James Parks' book "Mastering Compound Bows" Note the copyright date of 2002. So this book is 15 years old. 
Would anyone care to put a date with evidence before 2002 where this information was published or promoted?


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## SonnyThomas

Nice one, Whiz-Oz. I had heard Torque Tuning wasn't new, but where to find was beyond me. On Dial Up I can't search fast and many sites takes long minutes of frustrating waiting. 

Many tuning methods, and more things, aren't new, just revised or updated and perhaps re-introduced by a well known archer as was Torque Tuning by Tim and Jesse.

To Oceanland, if you go back I'm pretty sure I noted one bow indicated of wanting the rest more forward, but ran out of room. Sort of lucky, I was about to run out of arrow on the launch arm. I'm pretty sure I noted a warning of this, have long enough arrows.


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## SonnyThomas

August 14, 2017 on Facebook late last night...
.
Chance Beaubouef; I set my hunting rest closer to the riser. Target stuff I set further back and torque tune.


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## carlosii

Somewhat off topic, but what is there about the so-called torqueless grip that makes it torqueless? I've never examined one up close.


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## SonnyThomas

I have no idea, Chuck.
.
.
On Facebook today; Jack Wallace has his new 2018 PSE cranking. He showed torque tuning 50 yards groups that would stack inside a 5 spot X ring. He has other 50 yard groups slapped together, that super tight.


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## SonnyThomas

Sort of a update....Couldn't see starting a new Post/Thread....

I noted one bow where it showed the rest needed to go forward a bit more. I couldn't go forward so the past few days I've been using that bow for tests and decided to move the sight to see if things got better. Well, they didn't. And with moving the sight frame in (only way I could go) I used a different lens to keep clarity...I moved the sight frame in 4 inches and didn't see where things changed. Okay, moving the sight in or out any machining error will show, up and down or side to side. I had raise sight height up .030" and move it .040" left. Sight frame moved back to original position and the movements had moved back. 
The bow actual shoots pretty darn good as is.


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## Stab 'em

Bump for the info.


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## live2bowhunt

Got to do this with my new target bow.


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## Reverend

I just want to know if the Hamskea overdraw fits the Hoyt Tec Riser, or will the cables hit the rest?


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## Sniper*1

Ok I went home at lunch after reading all of this and studying the process of torque tuning. 

Equipment:
Athens Ascent 28" Draw 36ATA
Trophy Taker Sping Steel Lizard Tongue Rest
Sure Loc One 6" Sight with S2 35mm Scope 6X Lens
Special Archery Peep with Clarifier (Light blue (I think))
34" Front Stab with 4oz and 12" BeeStinger Rear with 7oz (I think) Maybe 8oz?
Gold Tip Triple X 150 gr point (full Lenght Shaft roughly 32" or so) 4" Vanetec Fletch Pin Nocks
Tru Ball Boss X release

1 - Rest all the way back, Sight Bar all the way out.... Largest Rest/Sight Radius I could get... Torque Left - Arrow Left / Torque Right - Arrow Right
2 - Rest all the way forward, Sight Bar all the way out.... Torque Left - Arrow Left / Torque Right - Arrow Right (but a little less than above)
3 - Rest all the way forward, Sight Bar midway.... Roughly the same results as #2
4 - Rest all the way forward, Sight Bar all the way in.... Shortest Rest/Sight Radius I could get... Torque Left - impact change was negligible / Torque Right - impact change was negligible

#4 What I mean by negligible is that I have normal misses into the 10 or possibly the 9 ring of the same when executing a good shot for me...
*Note - When I "Torqued" the bow I mean I pushed/pulled hard to one side or the other. It wasn't a subtle thing. Performed my normal shot execution and settled, then torqued, then resettled the dot and let a good shot fly. If it was a bad shot I didn't consider it. 

I'm going to try this new set up, Rest forward, Sight all the way in for while to see what happens to my scores... Haven't been shooting long and would consider myself a mid 280s (mid teens x count) shooter right now... We'll see what happens to my scores... I'm just in it for the fun so I have nothing to lose but points.


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## Sniper*1

Ok I went home at lunch after reading all of this and studying the process of torque tuning. 

Equipment:
Athens Ascent 28" Draw 36ATA
Trophy Taker Sping Steel Lizard Tongue Rest
Sure Loc One 6" Sight with S2 35mm Scope 6X Lens
Special Archery Peep with Clarifier (Light blue (I think))
34" Front Stab with 4oz and 12" BeeStinger Rear with 7oz (I think) Maybe 8oz?
Gold Tip Triple X 150 gr point (full Lenght Shaft roughly 32" or so) 4" Vanetec Fletch Pin Nocks
Tru Ball Boss X release

1 - Rest all the way back, Sight Bar all the way out.... Largest Rest/Sight Radius I could get... Torque Left - Arrow Left / Torque Right - Arrow Right
2 - Rest all the way forward, Sight Bar all the way out.... Torque Left - Arrow Left / Torque Right - Arrow Right (but a little less than above)
3 - Rest all the way forward, Sight Bar midway.... Roughly the same results as #2
4 - Rest all the way forward, Sight Bar all the way in.... Shortest Rest/Sight Radius I could get... Torque Left - impact change was negligible / Torque Right - impact change was negligible

#4 What I mean by negligible is that I have normal misses into the 10 or possibly the 9 ring of the same when executing a good shot for me...
*Note - When I "Torqued" the bow I mean I pushed/pulled hard to one side or the other. It wasn't a subtle thing. Performed my normal shot execution and settled, then torqued, then resettled the dot and let a good shot fly. If it was a bad shot I didn't consider it. 

I'm going to try this new set up, Rest forward, Sight all the way in for while to see what happens to my scores... Haven't been shooting long and would consider myself a mid 280s (mid teens x count) shooter right now... We'll see what happens to my scores... I'm just in it for the fun so I have nothing to lose but points.


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## SonnyThomas

Don't quite understand your "pushed/pulled hard." For the test I used a bolt to show just how much I was torqueing as in real twisting of the bow and being consistent shot to shot. Okay, twisting, but not to the point of derailing....


Jesse's Instructions; A, sight bow in....then draw back and* torque* bow and shoot. If the arrow hits the way the stabilizer was pointing when torqued, the rest needs to come back. If it goes opposite it needs to go forward...Really that simple.


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## Sniper*1

Ok yes, “twisting” may have been a better term... either way... I torqued it left and I torqued it right... Seemed to find a spot that showed negligible impact change... We’ll see what happens to my scores...


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## SonnyThomas

Okay, understanding you found a sweet spot IE Negligible.

I set my extension bar to give best view, clarity, with my 4X lens. I then started with the arrow rest, moving a little at time so to maybe not jump a sweet spot, but sweet was watching the torqued shots closing in on the qualifier shot.


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## Sniper*1

Yes, if I was a better shooter I’d play more with the rest and work on more fine tuning... My sight picture is still good where I moved it to so I left the bow in tune (paper tune) and just moved my sight bar... it is pretty cool watching the arrow impact not change much when purposely torquing the bow... builds a little confidence 


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## 1goodarrow

Thanks for posting this


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## SonnyThomas

It's 9:13 am my time, CT. Just finished Torque Tuning another bow. Overcast, kind of breezy, and the breeze making 35 degrees feel a lot colder. 

Back issues still. 21 days of therapy hasn't improved it all that much. So I'm limited for shooting.

Weather as it is I sighted in for me and was pretty dead on for 20 yards, but the wind was trying hard to push me around so I stepped up to 15 yards for the test. Shot to qualify and then torqued bow right (front stab to the right) twice. I had two hits right at 2.75" to the left. By Jesse, arrow hits opposite of torque move rest forward. Again, weather as it is I didn't mess around. I moved the rest all the way forward (used levels on bow, string and arrow). Fired to qualify and then pulled the qualifier arrow. I then fired 2 arrows, 1 at a time, and pretty much drilled the qualifier arrow hole. 

Stepped back to 20 yards and shot 2 arrows and both hit in the X ring. I headed for the house. My hands were freezing. 

Raining or I'd take pictures.


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## *SWITCH

SonnyThomas said:


> It's 9:13 am my time, CT. Just finished Torque Tuning another bow. Overcast, kind of breezy, and the breeze making 35 degrees feel a lot colder.
> 
> Back issues still. 21 days of therapy hasn't improved it all that much. So I'm limited for shooting.
> 
> Weather as it is I sighted in for me and was pretty dead on for 20 yards, but the wind was trying hard to push me around so I stepped up to 15 yards for the test. Shot to qualify and then torqued bow right (front stab to the right) twice. I had two hits right at 2.75" to the left. By Jesse, arrow hits opposite of torque move rest forward. Again, weather as it is I didn't mess around. I moved the rest all the way forward (used levels on bow, string and arrow). Fired to qualify and then pulled the qualifier arrow. I then fired 2 arrows, 1 at a time, and pretty much drilled the qualifier arrow hole.
> 
> Stepped back to 20 yards and shot 2 arrows and both hit in the X ring. I headed for the house. My hands were freezing.
> 
> Raining or I'd take pictures.


this is a good result, and interesting. shame you couldn't try some more shots and at greater distances, weather can be a pain for sure when your trying to tune etc.

torqueing the bow inconsistently is still a factor for me, and I guess most of us, especially when a bit of tiredness creeps in.

tricky thing about moving a magnified sight that far out, I find it impossible to hold steady enough to make an accurate clean shot, especially at 50m plus. Although if you had been able to move it gradually it may not have needed extreme movement I suppose 0)

so unfortunately I have to compromise some anti-torque for some aiming stability, even using just a x4 mag.

moving my rest back a bit and sight forward 1 notch has definitely improved things though.


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## SonnyThomas

I use a small machine bolt (with nut) through the upper rear hole of my Sure Loc mount. Right hand picture - http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=3702642&p=1087788434#post1087788434 

Search for Jury rigged torque indicator. Link, but there are pictures of different kinds - http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=2365348&p=1071713080#post1071713080

Granted posted of his out to 40 yards. right side of pic is actually the bottom - http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=3702642&p=1087790994#post1087790994


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## 1goodarrow

I shoot a bow tech realm x currently. I am using the hamskea Hybrid hunter pro, I have an MGB ascent verdict site with a 6 inch dove tail.

Currently I have the sight all the way in (closest to the shooter) , and the rest all the way back(closer to shooter).

I have done my yoke tuning and I am getting bare shaft bullets at 5 yards. I’m getting ready to shoot outside.

My question , Do you think that by moving my rest forwards or backwards that this will affect the overall tune of the bow. I am thinking that if it affects the overall tune of the bow then I might not be able to tell the effects of moving rest forward and back.

My second question, when I do my forward and backward rest adjustments, I am planning on using the Arrow level To keep the levelness ( I admit I made up a word) of the arrow constant as I move the rest forward and back. Is this what some of you have done? 

Thanks to all who have contributed to this post I appreciate it


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## Bobmuley

1goodarrow said:


> I shoot a bow tech realm x currently. I am using the hamskea Hybrid hunter pro, I have an MGB ascent verdict site with a 6 inch dove tail.
> 
> Currently I have the sight all the way in (closest to the shooter) , and the rest all the way back(closer to shooter).
> 
> I have done my yoke tuning and I am getting bare shaft bullets at 5 yards. I’m getting ready to shoot outside.
> 
> My question , Do you think that by moving my rest forwards or backwards that this will affect the overall tune of the bow. I am thinking that if it affects the overall tune of the bow then I might not be able to tell the effects of moving rest forward and back.
> 
> My second question, when I do my forward and backward rest adjustments, I am planning on using the Arrow level To keep the levelness ( I admit I made up a word) of the arrow constant as I move the rest forward and back. Is this what some of you have done?
> 
> Thanks to all who have contributed to this post I appreciate it
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


If your arrow bubbles perfectly level then it should be really close with it perfectly level when you move it forward. If you’re a little nick high the rest would need to go down a little as you go forward. 

In reality you should tune it first when moving the rest back and forth. Doesn’t have to be fine tuned just good enough to consistently hit behind the pin so the torque test gives you true results. 


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## SonnyThomas

^^^ Well said, Bob


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## 1goodarrow

Ok, thanks , once I get to work I will post some photos.


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## skynight

I keep the "levelness" by drawing a pencil line on the riser along the rest mount bracket. Then I just slide the rest along the line.


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## SonnyThomas

skynight said:


> I keep the "levelness" by drawing a pencil line on the riser along the rest mount bracket. Then I just slide the rest along the line.


Gets one close anyway. Even with levels on the bow, arrow and arrow rest it can be tricky. What I've done is shot in height with moving the rest tiniest of bits. Okay, I was dead on to start and moving the rest forward or backwards still should have one shoot dead on. After the move and shots prove a bit high I lowered the rest and if low I raised the rest.


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## 1goodarrow

So if I am reading these correctly, I can Do my rest forward and back adjustments, tweak out the torque effects, And then adjust my rest height(get my arrow level)?


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## SonnyThomas

1goodarrow said:


> So if I am reading these correctly, I can Do my rest forward and back adjustments, tweak out the torque effects, And then adjust my rest height(get my arrow level)?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Try this; You want to know where you're at. You don't want your arrow flip flopping to the target. You start out with a reasonably tuned bow. Do the torque tune test (stab right, arrow hits left or vice versa). I use a bow vice to hold my bow. I check bow for level, arrow rest for level and arrow for level. This way I know where everything is. I can them move the arrow rest backwards or forwards and return it to "level." Then when you test again first test for being on target. Like I noted above, tweak the arrow rest up or down so you're hitting dead on as before. I then torque tune test. First time I did this it took quiet a bit of time because I wanted perfect as I could get as I was going to write it up. Now, working with torque tuning I can pretty much breeze through it.


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## Downeastbob

Tagged


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## smeds10

so much info thanks


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## blitzkraig

tagged, thanks


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## TyT10

tag


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## SonnyThomas

TTT


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## ka3grm

SonnyThomas said:


> What bows I have set up shoot great. I can't see changing them, BUT I have a new bow in the process of setting up so it got the call. Understand, this bow is not tuned in any manner other than center shot eye balled and rest and nocking point set with levels. No back bars and only a 30" stabilizer with 2 3/4 oz on the end. The bow would wobble if I wasn't careful.....
> 
> Enter Tim Gillingham's Torque Tuning and Jesse Broadwater's instructions. Confusing and then not confusing.
> 
> Jesse's Instructions; A, sight bow in....then draw back and troque bow and shoot. If the arrow hits the way the stabilizer was pointing when torqued, the rest needs to come back. If it goes opposite it needs to go forward...Really that simple.
> 
> Hey, this is a lot of the best shooting you can put forth, moving the rest and checking that it's right. To cut down on some of the shooting I torqued the bow right (stabilizer pointing right - arrow closest to the cables).
> 
> I started out with the rest all the way back, launch arm/arrow contact to deepest of the riser grip, 1.800".
> By Jesse's instructions, if the arrow hits opposite of the torque the rest needs to go forward.......
> I used a bolt through the sight mount so give a consistent gaging....
> Pictures show the results. Arrow in X ring is the Qualifying arrow which was shot for each move of the arrow rest.
> It was windy with overcast skies and bright sunshine. At times I had to wait for the wind to die down.
> If I thought the wind caught a arrow or shoved me I reshot. I reshot sometimes to believe what I was seeing.
> The last two target pictures is torqueing right and left with the rest as given.
> I started sometime around when my wife went to town, 11:00 am, and I was still proving/testing after she got home, 4:00 pm.
> Wore out, I'll recheck the last setting again tomorrow.
> Bolt through mount. Rest as far back as it would go and as far forward as it would go.


This has been a great read and learning curve.


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## agwrestler

I've tried this with my Traverse, but I have the sight(MBG Competition) all the way back and the rest (Hamskea Hybrid Target) all the way forward. The arrow still hits 4-5" from center and opposite of torque direction. Is this just the best I can get with this bow/rest/sight combination? Are reflex risers limited in the potential benefit of this process?


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## whiz-Oz

agwrestler said:


> I've tried this with my Traverse, but I have the sight(MBG Competition) all the way back and the rest (Hamskea Hybrid Target) all the way forward. The arrow still hits 4-5" from center and opposite of torque direction. Is this just the best I can get with this bow/rest/sight combination? Are reflex risers limited in the potential benefit of this process?


No. You've just gone past the compensation point. Don't touch your rest. Extend your sight all the way out, then torque the bow one way gently. Continue moving the sight back slowly and torquing intentionally with each shot until torquing makes no difference to where the arrow hits.


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## Tipe

Some youtube videos about this.. U' can find more pretty similar videos there


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## SonnyThomas

whiz-Oz said:


> No. You've just gone past the compensation point. Don't touch your rest. Extend your sight all the way out, then torque the bow one way gently. Continue moving the sight back slowly and torquing intentionally with each shot until torquing makes no difference to where the arrow hits.


Yes, there more than likely have gone past the compensation point.


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## SonnyThomas

Tipe said:


> Some youtube videos about this.. U' can find more pretty similar videos there


I started this Thread coming up on 5 years ago. Possibly there have been improvements or differing methods.


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## Tipe

SonnyThomas said:


> I started this Thread coming up on 5 years ago. Possibly there have been improvements or differing methods.


Yea and I reply for those who did reply it lately.
I'm not sure is there any improvement to do when that really works.


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## ukxbow

Just had a quick play with my 3D TRX40, where the Hamskea Trinity is slightly rear of where both bolts would fit thru the slot and noticed that it wasn't responding as much to torque as I expected; however, I could get maybe 3/4-1" of change to POI at 20yards torquing as much as I felt I could; however, the arrow impacted left, when I torqued the stab right and recentered the pin on the X. This suggests the rest need to go forward with the rest a touch. I will move my rest forward 1/4" and see where this takes me.

One of the most striking take homes of all this is how hard it is to clearly torque your bow when you spend so much time working on a grip and anchor that avoids this. I had to work quite hard to do so, which has to be a good sign! I guess where this will really help will be on those long shots, perhaps those also with uneven ground or slopes, or in the wind, where an arrow that is a couple of inches better off scores higher than one where torque just causes the arrow to land in a lower scoring ring to the right or left.

Interestingly I set up my old Shootdown a while back with the long arm rest way back and the bow was horrifically unforgiving. I moved it right forward to where it used to be and all of a sudden the bow was far kinder to me. That showed me that, for whatever reason, having the rest far back doesnt seem to be a good thing for me. Maybe it will be different on different bows....


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## 1goodarrow

Tim Gillingham mentioned on one of his videos (I think) that he cuts his arrows so that they are only 1” past the point where they contact the rest. I think it had to do with torque and leverage on the arrow. I am wondering if different length arrows would behave differently on the same bow test combination tourque tuning wise.


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## *SWITCH

For me with the rest even just half an inch behind the berger is worse than at the centre. Other factor here, is the increase in arrow length past the end of the rest. some say, best to be no more than an inch past.

so for example, lets say you find 1" behind the berger centre is optimal for torque, do you then cut your arrows so they overhang the same amount as before you moved the rest back 1", then re do the torque tuning. or leave them alone?


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## SonnyThomas

1goodarrow said:


> Tim Gillingham mentioned on one of his videos (I think) that he cuts his arrows so that they are only 1” past the point where they contact the rest. I think it had to do with torque and leverage on the arrow. I am wondering if different length arrows would behave differently on the same bow test combination tourque tuning wise.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk





*SWITCH said:


> For me with the rest even just half an inch behind the berger is worse than at the centre. Other factor here, is the increase in arrow length past the end of the rest. some say, best to be no more than an inch past.
> 
> so for example, lets say you find 1" behind the berger centre is optimal for torque, do you then cut your arrows so they overhang the same amount as before you moved the rest back 1", then re do the torque tuning. or leave them alone?


Leave arrow length alone....Most rests can't move much more than 1" forward or backwards if set to center to start with.. If you move the rest forward the arrow is "shorter" on the rest and or you may even run out of arrow on the rest - like the arrow will fall.


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## Luis Roldan

look the rest... what is your opinion?


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## The Infidel

It's a good rest. It looks like an AAE Freakshow Extended. He's probably got it that far back for torque tuning and possibly as an overdraw. The guy can shoot that's for sure.

I have no idea what I'm doing........ ever


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## jboyce23

SonnyThomas said:


> August 14, 2017 on Facebook late last night...
> .
> Chance Beaubouef; I set my hunting rest closer to the riser. Target stuff I set further back and torque tune.


why would you set your hunting bow different than target bow?


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## SonnyThomas

jboyce23 said:


> why would you set your hunting bow different than target bow?


I have no idea, other than Chance being Chance. Go back to my first posts and you'll see I was dead X to start with my normal grip. All I did was prove that Torque Tuning works. My hunting bows shoot great as is and I've never Torque Tuned them......One that I had, 33 1/2" ata, shot great out to the longest I shot, 65 yards. I called it all but Field Target worthy. Alas, I sold it, but then I've never cared for short ata bows. My present hunting bow has ata of 37 1/2".


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## lees

SonnyThomas said:


> I have no idea, other than Chance being Chance. Go back to my first posts and you'll see I was dead X to start with my normal grip. All I did was prove that Torque Tuning works. My hunting bows shoot great as is and I've never Torque Tuned them......One that I had, 33 1/2" ata, shot great out to the longest I shot, 65 yards. I called it all but Field Target worthy. Alas, I sold it, but then I've never cared for short ata bows. My present hunting bow has ata of 37 1/2".


Might be a difference in the shaft length between the setups, and getting the rest under the front node for each. I didn't think this made a difference and for many years it was just as long as it was enough to stay on rest, who cares. Or cut it 1" past and go shoot.

But nowadays I pay attention to it and try to get the lizard tongue as close to the node as I can. On my RTX 40, for example, I use 28" ACE's, and it requires a fair bit of an overdraw to get the rest under the front node. Not 3" to 6" like in The Good Old Days, but as far back as my AAE rest will go. I'd say around 2" from the rear Berger hole.

I've never been able to make torque tuning work. Everything I try and the shaft goes into the woods when I torque the handle, no matter what I move. The rest or the sight, and the torqued arrow goes around the bale into the woods.

I have no idea why, but I suck, is my #1 suspect.

It sure seems to work well for good shooters tho.

But I do find that positioning the rest under the node makes the setup noticeably more forgiving at longer ranges. My groups at 50 meters are definitely tighter than before...

lee.


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