# Bareshaft bullet hole, fletched do not...



## BigFoote (Feb 3, 2021)

Kinda new to archery and attempting to tune my bow after a rest change. 

It's a single cam, followed directions and got a bareshaft shooting perfect out to 5 yards. 

Then I tested a couple fletched arrows, they shot about a .25" low and slightly left. 

Not sure what to do?


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

20 yards. Fire a group of 3 fletched arrows, and then fire 2 bareshafts...all five arrows aimed at the same bullseye.
Take a photo. Then, we can tell you what to do.


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## BigFoote (Feb 3, 2021)

nuts&bolts said:


> 20 yards. Fire a group of 3 fletched arrows, and then fire 2 bareshafts...all five arrows aimed at the same bullseye.
> Take a photo. Then, we can tell you what to do.


Thank you for your response. I can't hit the range till the weekend but will do that if needed. I'm shooting in my apartment for now and I don't have 20 yards.

Today I reset everything and tried again. here is what i'm doing.
1. Set center shot with a string and cut arrow & lining up arrow shaft with berger holes. D-loop is about a 1/8th higher than level.
2. Setting idler wheel to vertical by yoke tuning.
3. Shooting through paper at 6 ft & adjusting yoke. I get close to perfect but one more twist is to much, so I micro adjust the rest till there is a bullet hole

Take a look at this picture. Top two shots its tuned to the arrow with vanes, you can see bare shaft is a tiny bit left. Next two on bottom, I added a half twist to the right yoke. Bullet hole with bare shaft, a bit right with vanes. Any ideas?


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## Ian_Sand (Oct 7, 2020)

Have you checked the clearance of your fletchings through your rest? My previous bow was close to the cable guard so I would have to make sure my fletching was not at 90 degrees right or else it would hit. My shop told me to put my kids lipstick on the fletching and shoot to see if it was making contact.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

BigFoote said:


> Thank you for your response. I can't hit the range till the weekend but will do that if needed. I'm shooting in my apartment for now and I don't have 20 yards.
> 
> Today I reset everything and tried again. here is what i'm doing.
> 1. Set center shot with a string and cut arrow & lining up arrow shaft with berger holes. D-loop is about a 1/8th higher than level.
> ...


So, when you can get to a range and shoot 20 yards,
fire a group of three fletched arrows, and at LEAST 2 bareshafts. Will provide much much more info
than holes thru paper inside of an apartment.



This photo, of three fletched arrows and ONE bareshaft fired at 20 yards,
tells me that the fellow's blade rest is setup im-perfectly. If you ONLY looked at fletched,
you would say that the bow is TUNED. All 3 fletched are touching at the pointy end. BUT, the fella wanted to know if I could cut his group size less than 7 days prior to his tournament.

If he only showed me paper tuning holes inside his apartment, I would have near ZERO info,
especially if he only fired fletched tournament arrows thru paper. See, he said he was NOT a believer in bareshafts.

So, firing the bareshaft and his "tuned" fletched arrows, at 20 yards, REALLY opened up his eyeballs.
So, after he learned how to tune a blade rest MY way...

he did this at 20 yards, with his fletched tournament arrows.



21 shots from 20 yards, with only one fletched arrow in his quiver. Yes, that means he walked to the target 21 times, he pull out his ONE arrow 21 times, and fired that ONE arrow 21 times and fired a group size that was ONE arrow diameter, a 27/64ths group size.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

BigFoote said:


> Thank you for your response. I can't hit the range till the weekend but will do that if needed. I'm shooting in my apartment for now and I don't have 20 yards.
> 
> Today I reset everything and tried again. here is what i'm doing.
> 1. Set center shot with a string and cut arrow & lining up arrow shaft with berger holes. D-loop is about a 1/8th higher than level.
> 2. Setting idler wheel to vertical by yoke tuning.


1) Set center shot with 2 arrows. Wrap a rubber band around the riser, and feed arrow #2 thru both ends of the rubber band. Might need a spring clamp or two to hold up the arrow. Clamp arrow anywhere above the arrow on the arrow rest.

2) Move arrow rest sideways, until the arrow on the arrow rest LOOKS parallel to arrow #2, clamped to your riser.
Riser is dEAD straight, so arrow clamped to riser is a DEAD perfect reference for straight ahead.

3) fold a slip of paper that BARELY fits between the two arrows, near the nock end.
Test fit the same slip of paper between both arrows near the pointy end. Adjust arrow rest sideways position,
until the same slip of paper JUST fits between the two arrows, at the pointy end, and at the nock end.

















Paper tuning at 2 yards, is telling you near zero information.
If you have tiny tears at 2 yards, then, you will have MASSIVE errors at 20 yards.

So, wait until you get to 20 yards.

RESET the centershot with my 2 arrow method.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

BigFoote said:


> 2. Setting idler wheel to vertical by yoke tuning.


Setting idler wheel to VERTICAL....so, I'm gonna assume you mean Idler wheel is VERTICAL at brace height.
This is your other problem.

We want the idler wheel VERTICAL at full draw, in a draw board.
If a right handed bow, you have a cable guard.

So?

So, the cable guard, or roller guard, on a right handed bow, is DESIGNED to pull the cables TIGHT at full draw.

Again, so?

So, the cables are angled to the right, to provide clearance for the vanes, when you fire an arrow.

Yeah, so? Why does this matter?

It matters, cuz the idler wheel will rotate CLOCK-WISE at full draw. So, we have to ANGLE the idler wheel, CCW a little bit, at brace height. This is called PRE-LEAN.

Pinch an arrow to the LEFT side of the idler wheel. Find a flat spot.
Slide the arrow up and down, until the point of the arrow is at the SAME height as the middle of the d-loop.
Your arrow acts as a SUPER accurate ruler.





Point of the arrow needs to be maybe 1/16th inch to the RIGHT of the right side of the center serving.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

BigFoote said:


> Thank you for your response. I can't hit the range till the weekend but will do that if needed. I'm shooting in my apartment for now and I don't have 20 yards.
> 
> Take a look at this picture. Top two shots its tuned to the arrow with vanes, you can see bare shaft is a tiny bit left. Next two on bottom, I added a half twist to the right yoke. Bullet hole with bare shaft, a bit right with vanes. Any ideas?
> 
> View attachment 7398972


Need a form photo.
No cap on your head.
No long sleeves. Wear short sleeves.
Wear shoes. Tuck shirt into jeans.

Blank wall behind you.
Level strip of masking tape on the wall behind you, ABOVE shoulder height.
Redo the photo as many times as you need to, until you get your bow hand HIGH enough, so arrow is DEAD LEVEL.

Like this.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

After you reset the arrow rest sideways position, with my 2 arrow method,
then, we TEST your sight windage a 2 yards.

Shoulder high target.
Put a nail in the top of the target.
Hang a length of DENTAL floss...no, not paracord, no, DEFINITELY not 1/4 inch twisted polyester rope.
Dental floss. Tie a weight to the end of the dental floss.
DO not touch the arrow rest.

ONLY adjust sight windage, until you can do this with a bareshaft.









Get your bareshaft to touch the dental floss, just 2 yards away, or even better, SPLIT the dental floss, at 2 yards away.

With sight windage fine tuned,
with arrow rest dialed in with my 2 arrow method,
now try your paper tuning. Do not move the arrow rest. Do not move sight windage. Do not adjust yoke legs, after you set the PRE-LEAN angle, with the arrow ruler method.

Post new photo of your 2 yd paper tuning.


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## Cspencer (Apr 28, 2021)

spot on information!!


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## BigFoote (Feb 3, 2021)

Ian_Sand said:


> Have you checked the clearance of your fletchings through your rest? My previous bow was close to the cable guard so I would have to make sure my fletching was not at 90 degrees right or else it would hit. My shop told me to put my kids lipstick on the fletching and shoot to see if it was making contact.



I have not checked this but will give it a try. Thank you.


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## BigFoote (Feb 3, 2021)

nuts&bolts said:


> After you reset the arrow rest sideways position, with my 2 arrow method,
> then, we TEST your sight windage a 2 yards.
> 
> Shoulder high target.
> ...


I have done everything you've instructed. I really liked the two arrow center shot method. To be clear, you would like the photo of my paper holes without any further adjustment? I should not yoke tune for a bullet hole, correct?


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

BigFoote said:


> I have done everything you've instructed. I really liked the two arrow center shot method. To be clear, you would like the photo of my paper holes without any further adjustment? I should not yoke tune for a bullet hole, correct?


Want a photo of a 20 yd target, with 3 fletched arrows and at least ONE bareshaft.
Want to see what happens, with centershot set with the 2 arrow method,
with no adjustment to the arrow rest.

Reset the yoke legs, for a tiny bit of top cam pre-lean, for a tiny bit of idler wheel pre-lean...SEE Post #7.

With sight windage reset so the bareshaft arrow can touch a dental floss plumb bob.

So, let's see a 20 yd target, 3 fletched and 1 bareshaft.



Example of a 20 yd TARGET, with three fletched and 1 bareshaft.
Let's skip the paper tuning for a bit.
Shoot an actual target.


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## RNoel22 (May 6, 2020)

I've learned more about bow tuning in this thread than I have learned collectively since I started shooting two years ago. Thank you to all that contributed, and to OP for getting this started.


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## BigFoote (Feb 3, 2021)

nuts&bolts said:


> Want a photo of a 20 yd target, with 3 fletched arrows and at least ONE bareshaft.
> Want to see what happens, with centershot set with the 2 arrow method,
> with no adjustment to the arrow rest.
> 
> ...


Think I can get out there tomorrow, i'll take some pictures. Here is a form picture you asked for, thanks again for your help.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

BigFoote said:


> Think I can get out there tomorrow, i'll take some pictures. Here is a form picture you asked for, thanks again for your help.
> 
> View attachment 7399442


Retake photo with the photographer standing square to the wall behind you.
Use THIS camera angle.



Next photo, get ankles only six inches apart, for ONE experimental photo.
Want the legs dead vertical, and not like a pyramid.

The arrow hitting slightly left, is probably due to bow hand grip technique.

*I REALLY REALLY recommend NO SHOOTING inside an apartment.*

Wait til you get to a range.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

BigFoote said:


> Think I can get out there tomorrow, i'll take some pictures. Here is a form picture you asked for, thanks again for your help.
> 
> View attachment 7399442


Make a foil ball 2-inches in diameter.



Hold ball of foil with three fingers, the pinky, the 4th finger, and the middle finger.



When you hold the bow, you have only 2 fingers remaining, the pointer finger and the thumb. Keep bottom of pointer finger in contact with the riser, JUST under the arrow shelf, so the ball acts as a spacer to FORCE you to rotate wrist and knuckles. Wrist needs to rotate clockwise, so if you were wearing a watch, the watch face would be parallel to the floor and ceiling. The knuckles will goto about 45 degrees.

Purpose for the spacer, reason for knuckles at 45 degrees is to get MORE of the thumb muscle onto the grip, so LESS thumb muscle oozes past the vertical edge of the grip.

When knuckles are too much vertical, then, too much of the thumb muscle oozes past the edge of the grip, and your SIDEWAYS miss pattern is larger at ALL distance, even shooting inside an apartment distance...

which you SHOULD not do anymore.

Bow arm/bow hand needs look more like this.





Yes when you rotate wrist CW, and rotate knuckles to 45 degrees,
the pointer finger knuckle will rise ABOVE the arrow shelf.


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## BigFoote (Feb 3, 2021)

You were right about my grip. I tested the ball trick and it moved the contact point on my hand more right. I had the contact point much closer to the left near my life line. I will try to get anther form shot tonight.

I made my wife upset but I made it to the range... Here is some shots of my 20yd groups. I'm shooting for the obvious dot but clearly not sighted in. I did adjust the vertical to get a little closer but did not touch the windage or anything else.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

Excellent. Keep practicing.


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## ZeroTolMfg (Aug 11, 2016)

nuts&bolts said:


> Excellent. Keep practicing.


so is that grouping with the bare shafts mixed with the fletched ones what you’re looking for? That’s a very interesting method


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

ZeroTolMfg said:


> so is that grouping with the bare shafts mixed with the fletched ones what you’re looking for? That’s a very interesting method


Nope. This tight grouping with the fletched, and the bareshaft 12-inch NOCK HIGH was indicative of a problem with his blade rest.



This is BAD. This crazy nock high on the bareshaft, but the fletched are all touching
means the blade is too thick, and the blade rest angle is too steep.

So, after I taught this fella how to REALLY tune a blade rest,
he was able to shrink his groups to one arrow diameter at 20 yards.



One arrow in his quiver, fired 21 times in a row, at 20 yards.
Yes, that means this is his AFTER test result.
I made him walk to the target, pull out the one fletched arrow, and fire again at the 20 yd shooting line. Full test is 30 shots, but he stopped after 21 shots.

So, that's 21 busted nocks in a row, or that's 21 robin hoods in a row. U pick.


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## ZeroTolMfg (Aug 11, 2016)

nuts&bolts said:


> Nope. This tight grouping with the fletched, and the bareshaft 12-inch NOCK HIGH was indicative of a problem with his blade rest.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


right I see the problem in the pictures you used as examples. I was asking about the OPs pics here it looked like his bare shafts are grouping pretty good with his fletched arrows at 20. 

If you can group bare shafts with fletched arrows is there even any point in paper tuning?

btw, I don’t shoot target bows or blade rests, I have hunting bows with drop aways, if that makes any difference.

thanks for the tips,they’re always informative


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## BigFoote (Feb 3, 2021)

nuts&bolts said:


> Excellent. Keep practicing.


Here is a better shot of my form. I did notice bare shafts did not fly very straight, they seemed to hit at an angle though they did group close. They were definitely hitting high left with a low right angle.

What are my next steps? Is the issue i'm having tuning come down to the preloaded angle on my idler & form/experience?


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

BigFoote said:


> Here is a better shot of my form. I did notice bare shafts did not fly very straight, they seemed to hit at an angle though they did group close. They were definitely hitting high left with a low right angle.
> 
> What are my next steps? Is the issue i'm having tuning come down to the preloaded angle on my idler & form/experience?
> View attachment 7400262


Three things.

1) make a foil ball 2-inches in diameter. Hold the foil ball with bow hand, using only 3 fingers. Hold the foil ball with pinky finger, 4th finger and middle finger. Like this.





This way, only the thumb and pointer finger can touch the riser. The ball is a spacer to FORCE more rotation on your knuckles. I see nearly 90% of your thumb muscle oozing past the right edge of the grip. Want only 10% of the thumb muscle spreading past the right edge of the grip.



Ball will FORCE the knuckles on your bow hand to swing much much more ClockWise. Yes, this massive rotation of the knuckles on your bow hand, will make the bareshaft missing left, much better. Keep fingers loose around the ball.


2) get ankles only 6-inches apart, like ONE hand width. The pyramid thing with the legs is no good. Get ankles much closer together, so legs go vertical. Not riding a horse. No need for the pyramid/triangle thing for the legs.


3) Yeah, yeah, you heard on the internet that you just GOTTA shoot open stance. But, your bareshafts miss left.
Well, that's cuz your right elbow is now swinging enough ClockWise behind your head. So, twist your ankles/knees, hips and shoulders more CLOCKWISE.



THIS photo explains what I mean, by swinging your right elbow MORE CLOCKwise behind your head. That will fix the bareshaft missing LEFT, and THIS will tighten up your fletched groups.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

BigFoote said:


> Here is a better shot of my form. I did notice bare shafts did not fly very straight, they seemed to hit at an angle though they did group close. They were definitely hitting high left with a low right angle.
> 
> What are my next steps? Is the issue i'm having tuning come down to the preloaded angle on my idler & form/experience?
> View attachment 7400262




THis is an EXAGGERATED photo of what you are doing. LOOK at your photo. LOOK closely at the left shoulder.
LEFT shoulder is easy 8-10 inches away from the arrow, when YOU are at full draw.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

BigFoote said:


> Here is a better shot of my form. I did notice bare shafts did not fly very straight, they seemed to hit at an angle though they did group close. They were definitely hitting high left with a low right angle.
> 
> What are my next steps? Is the issue i'm having tuning come down to the preloaded angle on my idler & form/experience?
> View attachment 7400262


LOOK closely at your LEFT shoulder in your photo. LEFT shoulder is easy 8-10 inches AWAY from the arrow, when you are at full draw.

LOOK closely at your RIGHT shoulder in your photo, release side shoulder. RELEASE side shoulder is maybe 3-inches away from the arrow, if we stretch the arrow alignment, all the way back to your elbow.

So, here is a PRETEND overhead photo of you, at full draw....pic on the left.



So, your shoulders are pointing HARD LEFT, just like GREEN hat guy...(2nd Nature).
So, twist your upper body a WHOLE BUNCH clockwise, and adjust your feet if needed, so you CAN twist your upper body, so you CAN point your collar bones in a new direction, point your collar bones towards the RIGHT edge of the target...

like BLUE t-shirt guy. Same guy (2nd Nature), after I fixed him.

You try.


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## BigFoote (Feb 3, 2021)

nuts&bolts said:


> LOOK closely at your LEFT shoulder in your photo. LEFT shoulder is easy 8-10 inches AWAY from the arrow, when you are at full draw.
> 
> LOOK closely at your RIGHT shoulder in your photo, release side shoulder. RELEASE side shoulder is maybe 3-inches away from the arrow, if we stretch the arrow alignment, all the way back to your elbow.
> 
> ...


Nuts & Bolts, I just want to thank you. You filled in alot of gaps in my knowledge and pointed out things about my form I never would have seen. I tested paper and I was indeed having a low right tear like I saw in flight. 

I then rotated to better align my shoulders, 3x shots at paper and the low right tear is nearly gone with no other adjustments. You were right, much of it was my form. 

It went from this:










To this with just the change in my form.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

BigFoote said:


> Nuts & Bolts, I just want to thank you. You filled in alot of gaps in my knowledge and pointed out things about my form I never would have seen. I tested paper and I was indeed having a low right tear like I saw in flight.
> 
> I then rotated to better align my shoulders, 3x shots at paper and the low right tear is nearly gone with no other adjustments. You were right, much of it was my form.
> 
> ...


VERY very nice. Well done! Keep up the good work.


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## Buffalo Hunter (Jan 28, 2005)

Wow I never realized how much a tear could be affected by just changing form a bit. Dang. And to think you could have wasted hours at the range changing your arrow rest, DL, and whatever.

BigFoote, thanks for posting the pics and following Nut's recommending instead of arguing with him like some guys. I here learning from your experiences.  

Very helpful.


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## Jjank589 (Jun 6, 2018)

Here’s a great post on bareshaft tuning and the corrections to get everything lined up perfectly. Been using it for years and highly recommend.









Bareshaft Tuning results!!


Well, even though I have been an archery tech in two different shops over the last 13 years, and know my way around archery equipment pretty well, there is ALWAYS something to learn. As a quick history on me started with traditional equipment (still shoot a longbow from time to time) and...




www.archerytalk.com


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