# Is A Short Riser (17" or Less) Actually A Disadvantage?



## Hank D Thoreau (Dec 9, 2008)

A discussion of this is happening now over on Tradtalk. I have never used a short riser, but I was thinking of constructing shorter windows with cardboard to see how it impacted my aiming. One of the comments was that the smaller window helped with shorter hunting distance shots. The top of the window served as am aiming point. It makes sense but is probably not practical for me to use short risers with a 32 inch draw, especially since I am a target shooter. But any knowledge gained is useful.


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## oldnewby (Oct 13, 2015)

Has anyone who has shot a bow with a 17" riser had to cant the bow to make shots? At what ranges?


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## MAC 11700 (Feb 22, 2011)

oldnewby said:


> Has anyone who has shot a bow with a 17" riser had to cant the bow to make shots? At what ranges?


I have canted every trad bow I have owned. I never consciously sighted off the riser as a aiming method but do intend to try this method once my new Border recurve makes it here. I talked with Sid at Borders and this is the method he uses and from what I've been told has done very well with it out to 80 meters. 

My guess is that if you are looking at the arrow tip and gapping off of it you would want a large sight window for a unobstructed view especially if you aren't canting the bow. It only makes sense to. 

Mac


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## steve morley (Dec 24, 2005)

For Instinct/gapping and short range hunting or 3D they work very well, the smaller sight window really helps in these situations. I always imagined a short riser would stack more but they seem very smooth. (not ever shot anything really short, just 17" to 19" range)

When I Stringwalk I aim exclusively off the arrow tip so the longer ILF's work better for me, especially on longer Field round but I do enjoy shooting my Dryad Orion on WA3D (33y max) courses, here I normally ignore the arrow and I shoot using the window sight picture, Stringwalking has an obvious advantage but I'm not that far behind on scores with the Orion.


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## Easykeeper (Jan 2, 2003)

One of my favorite bows has a 17" riser (62" TD recurve), works fine for me and what I do. Most of my stickbow archery takes place at 50 yards and under so I can't speak to the long games and 17" risers.


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## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

For me they are...they have a subtly strange way of causing me to both elevate my bow hand and hunch my form.

Along with canting my bow cause I don't have x-ray vision.


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## oldnewby (Oct 13, 2015)

If I am shooting at a target 50-60 yards distant, that target would be positioned near the bottom of my sight window. In that situation it should not matter how tall the sight window is on my bow. If I am shooting at a target 12-15 yards distant, that target will be positioned near the top of my sight window. In that situation it might matter whether my sight window is tall enough. Are there any members out there shooting with short (say, 17" or less ) risers who actually have to cant the bow at those short ranges because the sight window is too short?


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## Easykeeper (Jan 2, 2003)

oldnewby said:


> If I am shooting at a target 50-60 yards distant, that target would be positioned near the bottom of my sight window. In that situation it should not matter how tall the sight window is on my bow. If I am shooting at a target 12-15 yards distant, that target will be positioned near the top of my sight window. In that situation it might matter whether my sight window is tall enough. Are there any members out there shooting with short (say, 17" or less ) risers who actually have to cant the bow at those short ranges because the sight window is too short?


Ha! Good point. Shows I shouldn't post before coffee...

And no, I don't have to cant the bow at short ranges with my 17" riser, at least not beyond the few degrees that I normally do.


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## bwd (Dec 6, 2013)

All of my bows are geared towards hunting, and I mainly practice out to 30 yards, or so. That being said, for me, a 15"-17" riser is perfect.


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## oldnewby (Oct 13, 2015)

Easy keeper and bwd: I take it that you have no trouble seeing the target in your sight window at short ranges such as 12-15 yards with 17" risers , or in bwd's case, 15". And if you were shooting at targets 50-60 yards distant, it would be easier yet to see them in the window, because those farther targets would be positioned near the bottom of the sight window, so a short sight window would not hamper you in that situation, either.

Why do we keep hearing people say that short risers with their short sight windows hamper the archer by cutting off his/her view of the target, making it necessary to cant the bow to see the target or do gap shooting?


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## steve morley (Dec 24, 2005)

oldnewby said:


> Why do we keep hearing people say that short risers with their short sight windows hamper the archer by cutting off his/her view of the target, making it necessary to cant the bow to see the target or do gap shooting?


With a short riser and small window I struggle with long shots because it has a 25y point on, the hand and shelf obscures the target and you aim at an imaginary spot above the target. My ILF bow with a big sight window has a 60y point on, so the short distances like 10-15y a big sight window is useful. It all depends on how you have you bow setup, most people with short bows and small windows tend to be shooting more hunting distances with a heavier slow arrow. My ILF is using a light fast arrow 280-300g and easily over 210fps.

Of course you can shoot a short bow with a small sight window at long distances but my Dryad with a 450g arrow is only doing around 170fps, it's just a lot easier with the 26" ILF.


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## Easykeeper (Jan 2, 2003)

oldnewby said:


> Easy keeper and bwd: I take it that you have no trouble seeing the target in your sight window at short ranges such as 12-15 yards with 17" risers , or in bwd's case, 15". And if you were shooting at targets 50-60 yards distant, it would be easier yet to see them in the window, because those farther targets would be positioned near the bottom of the sight window, so a short sight window would not hamper you in that situation, either.
> 
> Why do we keep hearing people say that short risers with their short sight windows hamper the archer by cutting off his/her view of the target, making it necessary to cant the bow to see the target or do gap shooting?


I think target obstruction on the longer shots will have more to do with how you hold the string and your point on distance. Lots of people prefer three under for bowhunting, 3D and indoor target shooting because it gives them a shorter point on distance. I've always shot split and my point on is around 65 yards so I don't have to start holding over until past that.

Honestly I've never had a riser with a sight window that obstructed my view, but then I've always preferred bows with a minimum length of 60". I do cant my bow a few degrees, relative to a clock maybe 12:30 - 6:30 so maybe that's why I haven't had the problem you're talking about.


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## BarneySlayer (Feb 28, 2009)

The possible obstruction is mostly at closer range. It will vary slightly, but somewhere around 8-12 yards, the arrow reaches the apex in its trajectory (visually, from the eye's perspective), and then begins falling. In an absolute sense, the apex will be about halfway to the target, assuming that you're shooting level, but we're talking visibility here. 

The shorter riser means a shorter sight window, which means that if you don't cant the bow out of the way, and the window is too short, it can block your view.

For me, shooting 3 under, with my anchor and face, shooting off the shelf, I need about 2.5" from top to bottom. I couldn't get a window that big with a 17" Border Covert Hunter, but I get way more than that with a standard ILF metal riser at 17". as the limb pockets only extend to roughly the limb bolts. 

As the distance gets further, the target drops in the sight window, and then arrows/shelves/hands become the occluding objects. Shooting 80 yards or so, I can't even see the target with my dominant eye. Rather, I just look 'through' to the target, and I get kind of a semi-transparent overlay effect.

The advantages of a longer riser seem to be the fact that it results in a longer bow length, which decreases string angle (seems to be a highly variable advantage, depending on the shooter) as well as more, elongated mass, which provides an inertial stability advantage. In my opinion, this is the most universal benefit. I got to hold a guy's long target rig, with a 12" stab, nicely weighted for mass, balance, and slightly low center of gravity, and I could feel the advantage just having it sit in my hand. Kind of like a bull barrel on a rifle. But, also like a bull barrel, they're heavy, and I really don't like carrying something that large around for casual shooting, which is mostly what I do.

A shorter riser, in resulting in a shorter bow length, and subsequently a faster transition to steeper string angles, will not only up the holding weight with a given set of limbs, but also move the lift points forward, such that you may feel more 'stack' with a given set of limbs than if you used a longer riser. You can always offset that with longer limbs, or limbs that simply, by design, stack a whole lot less, or maybe not at all.

Personally, I prefer shooting with a riser in the 17-19" range, and I do okay with recreational target shooting accuracy. However, I'm not breaking any records either, nor giving any serious competition to the big dogs in the national level target game either, regardless of discipline. If I really wanted to do that, not only would I get more serious about regular practice, but I'd suck it up and adapt to getting used to a longer bow. I'm not convinced that a longer bow is going to jump me up a whole lot in scoring compared to simply improving my skills and proper preparation for any given event, but as you get more competitive, the scoring difference between the competition gets closer and closer, and a few points time to time in a tournament might actually make the difference we'd care about.


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## bowhuntrmaniac (Jan 22, 2012)

I agree with Easy. I have 2 17" riser recurves with med. limbs (I mainly hunt and 3-D shoot) I cant maybe 12:30 but have no trouble at 30-40 yards. Maybe shoot a long one just for fun sometimes!


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## oldnewby (Oct 13, 2015)

Bowhuntrmaniac: do you have any trouble with the sight window not being long enough at 12-15 yards?


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## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

Okay...now that I'm home on my PC where I can actually type well....here's what I've been waiting to say all day...

Before we can effectively and accurately answer the O.P.'s questions of....

*"Is A Short Riser (17" or Less) Actually A Disadvantage?"*

we must first take into consideration what the primary mission scope of said bow might be and the body of the O.P. read....

_"I sometimes hear or read that a short riser puts an archer at a disadvantage, *particularly at longer range*, because the "window" is shorter. Is this correct? It does not seem to make sense to me, *intuitively*."_

where the *BOLD PRINT* parts particularly got my attention...but for purposes of clarity?....let's first take a short yet in depth view at what it is many actually do where it comes to matters of "Riser Selection".

It seems to me that many of the hunter types like short, stealthy, woods slick bows and this is where many favor the sub 17" risers however?...not just any riser....because Lord knows being as short as they'd like it must still render an awesome level of target bow like performance...and we also want gobs of stability along with a well behaved shot finish so despite this riser being short in length?...we know it must also be made from some extremely dense material which many pay a premium for by opting for materials such as "All Phenolic"...or maybe 1/2 Phenolic 1/2 Some Super Expensive Exotic wood that's so dense it doesn't even Float....or any one of the many mission specific materials that have been procured such as "Dark Matter"..."Dark Timber"...heck...I even know of one bowyer who uses cultured epoxy bound stone in his risers...while others yet will load cavities with lead....so?...where are we now...oh yea...

*"A Short Riser That's as Heavy As Possible"*

so let's continue because surely?....we'll now need limbs for this short heavy riser...and we certainly don't want it to stack so?...we're going to have to go one length size UP from what we normally use there...(with me so far?...cause here's where things get real interesting)

so now we have a relatively short over all length hunting bow...that has an extremely heavy yet stoutly built diminutive riser to which we have attached...

Extra Long Limbs...you know...those long, light parts that "FLEX"?

and this is where I now ask....

*"What just happened to....The Stability Level.....of said bow?"* 

and my next question would be...

*"Couldn't we achieve much the same with a longer riser of more common material that doesn't need longer than normal limbs to draw properly?"*

Because didn't we just achieve similar (if not more) mass by going with a longer more stable riser made of more common material effectively avoiding the up-charge associated with exotics and for our frugal ways wound up with a bow that has more inadament length instead of gobs of length in motion?.....which would result in a far more stable bow with better performing proper length limbs with more snap and pizzaz to them?

Or do we really want a short heavy riser with long floppy limbs? LOL!

When I called Rob Lee nearly 20 years ago to order my first TD Recurve?....he asked my Draw Length...then went down his list of what he had available on the racks for immediate purchase of.....62" bows....my draw?....28"s...his response?...64" would feel a bit smoother but 62" would really belt them out there for you better.

Oddly enough?...my Bob Lee TD Hunter arrived with a solid ash riser stabilized with pressurized resin...That risers measured length?...21"s....with limbs that were the equivalent of modern day ILF "Shorts"....this is that riser.....I had refinished it after reshaping the grip area in November of 2012...




















This is that Bow....62"...21" Riser...Shorts (by todays standards) and it shot great!



















so I guess somewhere along the line we figured cause the target crowd was indulging in heavy risers that our short hunting rigs should have heavy risers as well...and because the target crowd was enjoying silky smooth drawing rigs?...if we went with longer limbs?.....and it seemed cool at the time but...

times have changed in my mind.


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## oldnewby (Oct 13, 2015)

Jinkster: Those are thought-provoking points. Setting aside the question of how "snappy" the limbs are, and just focusing for a moment on stability, do you think that all other things being equal, a 21" riser with short limbs will probably be more stable than a 17" riser with medium limbs?


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## Todd the archer (Feb 7, 2003)

Sight window comes into play depending on anchor point. If shooting long distances you probably use a lower anchor point so when shooting close a small sight window gets in the way. If you anchor high and shoot longer distances you wind up using too much hold over. So if planning to shoot long and short distances a combination of lower anchor and a riser with a long sight window works in all cases although gaps may be large a close range. Or possibly a short sight window will be fine if you change anchor for different distances.


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## rattus58 (Jul 9, 2007)

oldnewby said:


> I sometimes hear or read that a short riser puts an archer at a disadvantage, particularly at longer range, because the "window" is shorter. Is this correct? It does not seem to make sense to me, intuitively.


I'm not sure what you'd completely call the riser on some of my longbows and of course the takedowns I have are of varying lengths and don't seem to have an issue for me. Long distances, if you need to see where you're going with this, cant your bow a few degrees and practice this shooting... in my opinion... I guess what I'm saying is that it is the "feel" of the riser that matters, not it's length.

Aloha,

:beer:


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## grantmac (May 31, 2007)

In terms of technique I believe you will find the competitive long range shooters who compete in classes that don't allow stringwalking (NFAA Trad field for example) still use a very high anchor. They just opt for very fast/short arrows.

For them it's the stability and string angles of the longer riser which makes the full sized bows more accurate, not the size of the sight window.

Grant


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## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

oldnewby said:


> Jinkster: Those are thought-provoking points. Setting aside the question of how "snappy" the limbs are, and just focusing for a moment on stability, do you think that all other things being equal, a 21" riser with short limbs will probably be more stable than a 17" riser with medium limbs?


Yep.

There is one caveat that does merit mentioning though...as follows...

My statements are under the presumption that we're talking "Recurves"....but mount some reasonable quality ILF Longbow Limbs on this assumed short ILF riser?...

and it's a game changer...and not by a little bit....by a lot...completely different animal there and the reason why is because of the cross-sectional differences.

Longbow limbs are far and away a lot more torsionally stable than are most recurve limbs unless the recurve limbs are high dollar models with several layers of woven CF and even then?...I find even the standard glass/wood longbow limbs to be a bit more stable.

Give me a 15" Morrison/VPA with "Longs" in longbow limb configuration?...and ya got something.


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## BarneySlayer (Feb 28, 2009)

Adding mass to a shorter riser can help stabilize things a bit, but it doesn't help the rotational inertia much, not nearly as much as length (and many risers have big chunks of mass at the limb pockets).

You can always add stabilizers too, they need to be relatively longer to do much with the rotational inertia, and most of us who prefer shorter risers don't want a whole lot sticking out beyond the bow, and with stabs usually keep them 8 inches or less.

You can use up to 12", if you want, and still stay in the NFAA 'Trad' division, but that's still, from the pitch axis standpoint, nothing compared to the rotational inertia of a 25-27" riser.

In terms of shorter riser versus longer limbs, everything being equal, the length of the limbs makes more of a difference, in terms of stack points movement versus draw length, than the riser does. 17 to a 19" riser, not a big difference in stacking behavior. Shorts to mediums, much bigger difference.

If you want a shorter bow that doesn't stack, _*everything else being equal in limb design*_, smaller riser with longer limbs is the trick.

Jinks' Thunderchild is a great example. The riser is not a whole lot longer than the grip.


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## BarneySlayer (Feb 28, 2009)

JINKSTER said:


> Give me a 15" Morrison/VPA with "Longs" in longbow limb configuration?...and ya got something.


While there's nothing wrong with that, I don't think it has anything to do with torsional stability (assuming we're still talking about stacking behavior, right?)

You can get a 15" ILF riser with some Hex 7 longs and with a 28" draw will get pretty close to smooth as smooth gets. Even with mediums the draw will be smoother than most longer 'target' recurves at 28".

I guess I'm picking nits 

One other thing, to lessen stacking, run at lower brace height, dial out the limb bolts. It's not going to make a huge difference, but it will make some.


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## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

BarneySlayer said:


> While there's nothing wrong with that, I don't think it has anything to do with torsional stability (assuming we're still talking about stacking behavior, right?)
> 
> You can get a 15" ILF riser with some Hex 7 longs and with a 28" draw will get pretty close to smooth as smooth gets. Even with mediums the draw will be smoother than most longer 'target' recurves at 28".
> So
> ...


No...I'm talking about the limbs noodling...where the short heavy riser with the long recurve limbs feels like it's super smooth to draw....

In large part because the limbs don't care how you tug on them as no matter how badly you're torquing the bow?....

The short heavy riser will insulate you from feeling it happen and the longer extra limber limbs will readily twist without argument.

And just as a point of information?....unidirectional CF doesn't do squat as far as increasing torsional stability in limbs....but multiple layer's of the cross weave CF does and in a huge way.


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## Bill 2311 (Jun 24, 2005)

I have shot 19", 17" and 15". I never saw a difference so long as the limbs were the same. I never noticed any issues with the short riser but I don't shoot past 30 yards.
I actually sold the 15" and kept the 17" and often wonder if I made a mistake. Now I am looking to sell the bow to fund a CH. If they came in a 15" riser, I might be inclined to order that one but 17" is the shortest Border currently offers.


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## centershot (Sep 13, 2002)

oldnewby said:


> Has anyone who has shot a bow with a 17" riser had to cant the bow to make shots? At what ranges?


I have owned and shot 15"-17"-19"-21" & 23" risers. The only one I had a problem with was the 15" - it was a Morrison wood laminated riser and the window was just too small for me. All the others provided plenty of room 'around' the arrow for easy aiming. No canting required with ranges to around 50yds. I shoot 3 under with a fairly high anchor. If you shoot split or with a lower anchor then your mileage may vary.


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## BarneySlayer (Feb 28, 2009)

Bill 2311 said:


> I have shot 19", 17" and 15". I never saw a difference so long as the limbs were the same. I never noticed any issues with the short riser but I don't shoot past 30 yards.
> I actually sold the 15" and kept the 17" and often wonder if I made a mistake. Now I am looking to sell the bow to fund a CH. If they came in a 15" riser, I might be inclined to order that one but 17" is the shortest Border currently offers.


With the Covert Hunter risers, there's so much 'meat' in the riser where the bolts attach, in part because the limbs have more contact area with the riser (and go beyond the bolt itself quite a bit, I am assuming to make the connection more secure in both directions), that a 17" non-ILF riser is actually pushing it as far as sight windows go. If you took the same design, and pushed it to 15", there wouldn't be much sight window left at all.

That being said, because of the heavy recurve, for example, at brace, my 62" Covert Hunter is actually shorter than my 60" conventional recurve. As such, a 17" Covert Hunter riser is going to yield you a shorter bow, in terms of working envelope, than a 15" conventional recurve or longbow.


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## BarneySlayer (Feb 28, 2009)

JINKSTER said:


> No...I'm talking about the limbs noodling...where the short heavy riser with the long recurve limbs feels like it's super smooth to draw....
> 
> In large part because the limbs don't care how you tug on them as no matter how badly you're torquing the bow?....
> 
> The short heavy riser will insulate you from feeling it happen and the longer extra limber limbs will readily twist without argument.


Okay, thanks for clarifying 

Have you actually noticed this being a problem? I haven't, though that doesn't mean it doesn't happen for somebody.


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## oldnewby (Oct 13, 2015)

Thanks to all members who posted replies for your help on this question.


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## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

BarneySlayer said:


> Okay, thanks for clarifying
> 
> Have you actually noticed this being a problem? I haven't, though that doesn't mean it doesn't happen for somebody.


Although it wasn't with what anyone would call "A Short Riser"?....yes....I have....but the combination that presented this condition to me first?...was a Bob Gordon Warfed Black Bear (a lead weighted 21" riser that scaled 3 1/2#s) with 30# medium Sky XGM Maple/Glass limbs.

Absolute Torquesville! LOL!!!

Indicative Symptoms?: weak, stiff, weak, stiff, weak, stiff...etc....using the same shafting.


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