# What is the key skill to shooting good?



## aread

Watching the incredible archers in the international tournaments, every one of them is doing something that is generally considered as not good. Maybe it’s Reo & Ditmar leaning back, Or Chance with a DL about an inch long or Levi changing his anchor point depending on his bow’s ATA. Or Dave Barnsdale shifting his feet between shots when he won Vegas last time. Or several dozen pro’s not having optimum alignment. And the list could go on and on. Yet these archers consistently shoot top scores.

These guys (and ladies) are doing something right. It seems more than just being consistent. As the poster says "Consistency is only a virtue when you aren’t screwing up." It seems to be something that the really good archers have figured out and don't lose if they lay off a while. I watched Randy Hinkleman shooting 60X's after a 4 year layoff with a bow that didn't come close to fitting him. I watched Darrin McCutcheon shooting 58X with little or no practice because of a back injury.

It seems to be more than tuning and stabilizing their bows better than everyone else. For these two guys, it seems to be a skill that they developed during their heavy training earlier in life that they don't lose.

What do you think it is that these guys know that the rest of us haven't figured out yet?

Allen


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## cbrunson

Knowing how to adapt to the conditions on that day.


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## rn3

Strong steady bow arm.


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## Mahly

This safe uses no key, but a combination.

Developing:
a good float
a good release engine
form that works with your shot
mental toughness
a work ethic that keeps your practice routine going.


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## elkbow69

Hitting the X, Simple as that! We all do it differently, each in his or her own way that works best for them.

Just like in the movie KungFu Panda...."There is NO secret ingredient!"


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## unclejane

I vote Sonny's HB&S firing engine.....

LS


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## darton3d

Confidence! They KNOW they will hit the center. There is no doubt.


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## subconsciously

darton3d said:


> Confidence! They KNOW they will hit the center. There is no doubt.


2nd vote. I call it "predestination". I know when this arrow leaves this bow that is where it is going. In the x.


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## Lazarus

They are very comfortable with their shot process through successful repetition. Aka confidence.


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## EPLC

rn3 said:


> Strong steady bow arm.


I need to second this one. I once read an article where Dave Cousins said "The one that's steadiest on any given day is the one that wins". While that may not be an "exact" quote, I totally agree that it may be the most important separator between the top shooters and the rest of us. Watch Jesse shoot, he's like a statue.


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## aread

Thank you for your responses. I don't disagree with anyone.

However, I'm looking for something more basic than confidence. Confidence, real confidence, comes from shooting good. They know they will hit the X because they have done it thousands of times before. It's a result of shooting good, not the reason that they shoot good. They have to build the confidence by first shooting good. 

I'm trying to figure out what skill or ability that they have that allows them to build that confidence.

rn3 may be onto something with the steady bow arm. But I don't think that's the complete answer.

Mahly's combination (cool quote by the way) is part of it, but again, I don't think it's the complete answer. 

Maybe I'm looking for some magic drill, like if you stand on one leg while shooting 1,000 arrows, you are guaranteed a win at a big tournament. Silly example, but, it just seems like I should be getting better scores for the effort I put into archery. Fortunately, I enjoy shooting a bow, even with the crappy scores. But I think that shooting better scores would be even more fun.

Allen


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## Rip-N-Pray

Archery is 90% mental and only 10% form and equipment


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## hrtlnd164

The ability to stay out of the way and let the bow do what it is supposed to. In other words, execute the same shot over and over again with the least amount of negative influence from the archer. 
I have watched these guys toe the line at numerous different venues and they all look like they are half asleep at full draw. Calm, relaxed demeanor that makes each shot look effortless. The flip side, the guy beside them that just looks like they are trying to muscle thru the shot, wide eyed trying to force the pin in the middle. 
I think we have all hit that zone where everything just flows and you just pound out a string you didn't think you are capable of. It's like you were seeing it from some where else. These guys just know how to stay there when it is required...


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## subconsciously

EPLC said:


> I need to second this one. I once read an article where Dave Cousins said "The one that's steadiest on any given day is the one that wins". While that may not be an "exact" quote, I totally agree that it may be the most important separator between the top shooters and the rest of us. Watch Jesse shoot, he's like a statue.


At that level it is "who makes the least mistakes that day" who wins.


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## WhitBri

hrtlnd164 said:


> The ability to stay out of the way and let the bow do what it is supposed to. In other words, execute the same shot over and over again with the least amount of negative influence from the archer.
> I have watched these guys toe the line at numerous different venues and they all look like they are half asleep at full draw. Calm, relaxed demeanor that makes each shot look effortless. The flip side, the guy beside them that just looks like they are trying to muscle thru the shot, wide eyed trying to force the pin in the middle.
> I think we have all hit that zone where everything just flows and you just pound out a string you didn't think you are capable of. It's like you were seeing it from some where else. These guys just know how to stay there when it is required...


I think this is spot on. They are wired differently for the most part. Same reason most aren't great at interviews and tooting their own horn. It's a personality type.


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## ron w

as I learned, the release execution it's is boss, and has the final say on how the shot went. everything you do is in support of a good release.


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## jt12

Hate to tell you this because it sounds like you're looking for the holy grail. The truth is everyone can improve with proper training but the elite shooters are born with it plain and simple.


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## field14

I strongly disagree with the philosophy or hypothesis that "the best shooters are naturally born with it." Gimme a break...they get there by HARD WORK and constant practice and a DESIRE to excel. NOBODY is born to be an archer, nor are they born to be XXXXXX (fill it in yourself). Natural Talent for archery? Nope. Perhaps a little better fine twitch muscle control is part of the characteristics, but not "natural born talent."

Well, not to sound contrary, but the KEY skill to shooting good is to QUIT SCREWING AROUND AND BLAMING THE EQUIPMENT!
That is to say, stop changing the equipment around every practice session or even changing something DURING a practice session or, worst of all changing something because you miss the bullseye or an "X" or two!
If the bow was shooting well yesterday or the last time you shot and today "it" isn't, take a look in the mirror! YOU have changed, not the equipment. Of course, you should always verify things on the bow BEFORE you start any practice session. If you have things measured and marked, this isn't a problem. A quick glance at your marks and bolt positions (those are marked, too, aren't they???) and you should be good to go.

Don't be the "king/queen of piddle". Set the thing, forget about blaming the bow, the release, the scope, the dot, the stabilization, the mass weight, the holding weight, the lighting, the temperature and SHOOT THE DANGED THING!

That, IMHO is the biggest key to shooting good! I know it is the key to learning your equipment and can only be done by leaving it alone once set and shooting it over and over and over again. Cannot automate something if it is constantly being changed, now can you?
Hitting the "X" is in the FUTURE and you should be thinking in the PRESENT! Never forget that. You can control only the shot you are working on during THAT process...and hitting the X comes later, not in the present! In addition, your eyes are seeing what WAS and not necessarily what "is"...due to the time it takes for the message to get from the eye to the brain and get translated! Just like you never see the sun where it IS...you see where it WAS just over 8 minutes ago!
field14 (Tom D.)


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## rtcc

Just like free throws. Everyone does it different but by practicing ungodly amounts they developed a system that works for them, it becomes muscle memory. As long as they do the same thing rep after rep, the ball goes in.


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## TNMAN

Talent does have something to do with it, but talent without grit and hard work probably won't get you there---and sure won't keep you there. Look at the work Reo has done in the last year to get fit. That's a guy that wants to keep it going. Just an example---THEY ALL WANT IT BAD.


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## dcreighton

They practice to the point where the mental aspect is more important then the technique as it has become ingrained and second nature. When they practice they don't just shoot. They focus on a weakness and work past it until it isn't a conscious thought anymore. And they focus on practice a lot more often then most and they keep score so they know how to keep pushing or where to stop and refocus on an issue. They are better bow technicians then most too. I'd bet that very few top pros leave their tuning to a shop. They know how to get a good basic setup fast and then fine tune it to their individual shooting style for absolute forgiveness. Tuning is like practice for them in that they have worked through the kinks and experimented enough (preseason most likely) to know when the issue they are running into is an execution issue, mental issue, or equipment issue and then address it appropriately. And like Tom D said they don't tweak constantly during the season. When it's there its there and then they work their shot. You don't think when you get behind the wheel about the execution of each move you make because you do it so much. Shooting is like that for the pros and IMO it's why they look so calm at the shooting line. Oh and they probably eat and drink for a purpose (or to avoid an issue) before and during a shoot. Talent is enhanced by hard work and in turn hard work develops talent and great execution too.


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## aread

Good replies! Thank you!!

On the natural talent thing, if there is a natural talent, it's a mental talent. The ability to do things the same way over and over again and the ability to stick to a training plan and to do the things that that contribute to good shooting. I don't think there is a physical talent beyond basic coordination. Matt Stutzman proved that you don't need some special physical talent. Heck, the guy doesn't even need arms to make the Vegas shoot off.

90% Mental - yes, at some stage of our development. When we first start, it's probably 90% form and equipment, then as we learn our equipment and develop shooting skill, the mental part becomes more and more important until we reach the shoot off in Vegas where the difference in winning and losing is 100% mental.

I found a thread that GRIV started many years ago asking what was more important, form or execution. The better archers tended to agree with GRIV that execution was much more important than form. I guess that I've got to find that same particular skill of execution that the better archers have found.


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## AMertens

You guys ever watch the newer King Arthur movie? There's a scene where they're drinking and throwing knives, one guy hits perfect and the other asks him how he does that? 

He says "I aim for the middle"


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## Khaslem

Keeping the pin in the middle. Its that simple and yet that hard. With so many dynamic parts of a shot, if a person can keep the arrow pointed at the intended target more than other archers, they will be successful. Find the thing that keeps your pin from being in the middle throughout the shot and find a way to correct it and you will win. Sometimes that is mental, sometimes increasing the physical strength is the answer, sometimes equipment that fits your form and strengths is helpful, but at the end of the day, nothing is a total replacement for simply refusing to let a mediocre shot happen. If the pin isn't in the middle and won't stay there through the shot process, the arrow shouldn't leave the bow. I have often let arrows fly that I knew would only be 9's in the best case and often far worse. Why? Because I had given up on being great in that shot. I expect that every person who has shot very long have shot some incredible groups, so why settle for less? If you did it before it is entirely possible to do it again. So calmly make great shots by resolutely accepting nothing less, but not being discouraged when it doesn't work. Each shot is a chance for perfection.


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## legion_archery

Top leave pro's are born with more natural talent than the "average" archer, but yes taking that talent and perfecting it to the point of near perfection is key....... You can take two archer's and have then both do the exact same training/practice and the archer with more natural talent is the one that will be better in the end


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## Lazarus

Khaslem said:


> Keeping the pin in the middle. Its that simple and yet that hard. With so many dynamic parts of a shot, if a person can keep the arrow pointed at the intended target more than other archers, they will be successful. Find the thing that keeps your pin from being in the middle throughout the shot and find a way to correct it and you will win. Sometimes that is mental, sometimes increasing the physical strength is the answer, sometimes equipment that fits your form and strengths is helpful, but at the end of the day, nothing is a total replacement for simply refusing to let a mediocre shot happen. If the pin isn't in the middle and won't stay there through the shot process, the arrow shouldn't leave the bow. I have often let arrows fly that I knew would only be 9's in the best case and often far worse. Why? Because I had given up on being great in that shot. I expect that every person who has shot very long have shot some incredible groups, so why settle for less? If you did it before it is entirely possible to do it again. So calmly make great shots by resolutely accepting nothing less, but not being discouraged when it doesn't work. Each shot is a chance for perfection.


Khaslem.........where have you been? This is probably the best answer of the topic yet. You need to post more. :cheers:


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## montigre

I believe it comes from having and extreme level of confidence in their equipment and entire shot process. However, I also believe a very important component to achieving that level of confidence is what Khaslem pointed out in his post. You can go to hundreds of competitions with a tuned to the max set up, but if you have a habit of allowing those less-than-perfect arrows to leave the bow, then the confidence you could have achieved is slowly whittled away with each outing you attend.

Very good discussion here!! Thanks for starting it, Allen.


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## stoz

I have met very few very top shooters that didn't have a certain amount of swagger, bordering on cockyness. Its not slamming them most take it as cockyness but as lanny says your performance is directly tied yo your self image. If you work hard believe in yourself and focus you will be great.


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## aread

Khaslem said:


> Keeping the pin in the middle. Its that simple and yet that hard. With so many dynamic parts of a shot, if a person can keep the arrow pointed at the intended target more than other archers, they will be successful. Find the thing that keeps your pin from being in the middle throughout the shot and find a way to correct it and you will win. Sometimes that is mental, sometimes increasing the physical strength is the answer, sometimes equipment that fits your form and strengths is helpful, but at the end of the day, nothing is a total replacement for simply refusing to let a mediocre shot happen. If the pin isn't in the middle and won't stay there through the shot process, the arrow shouldn't leave the bow. I have often let arrows fly that I knew would only be 9's in the best case and often far worse. Why? Because I had given up on being great in that shot. I expect that every person who has shot very long have shot some incredible groups, so why settle for less? If you did it before it is entirely possible to do it again. So calmly make great shots by resolutely accepting nothing less, but not being discouraged when it doesn't work. Each shot is a chance for perfection.


I think you have it! Every one of us has read this advice before. Jacob had some good posts on it & I've read & heard it from other top archers. The difference between us mediocre archers and the top archers is that the top archers actually don't let the bad one's go. They practice letting down on the poor shots so much that they have figured out how to consistently set up for good shots. Top archers accept only excellence, the rest of us settle for mediocre.

Curing this can't be easy. Probably simple, but definitely not easy. 

This may be the natural talent that others have mentioned. Not some special hand-eye coordination, but the mental discipline to shoot only good shots. 

Thanks to all who posted on this thread! Now, any tips on how to teach myself to avoid "given up on being great in that shot"?

Allen


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## Rip-N-Pray

There is a big problem with saying X shooters have natural talent and in your mind you don't. You have just set your self to fail from now till you change your mentality. Until this mind set changes no amount of shooting will ever get you to the top


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## goofyfoot2001

I prefer to shoot well....


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## Mahly

Rip-N-Pray said:


> There is a big problem with saying X shooters have natural talent and in your mind you don't. You have just set your self to fail from now till you change your mentality. Until this mind set changes no amount of shooting will ever get you to the top


I agree with that.
I don't believe that the top archers ALL have some great DNA that predetermines that person to be an elite archer.
Sure some will pick it up better than others. But most of it can be learned. I believe there are a LOT of other people out there that simply don't know what to work on, or don't have the time (or don't make the time) to put in the work it takes to be an elite shooter, that could be if they changed those things.

Of course, not letting bad shots go is a big part of being a great archer.... But putting yourself in a position of one who doesn't have to worry about it much is key also. If I just didn't let bad shots go, I wouldn't beat Reo....I'd have a 1/2 blank scorecard LOL! Point is, they develop their shot to the point where 99.9% of their shots are "good" shots. It's easy to shoot all good shots when you can go days without a "bad" one coming up. Again, this take some practice and devotion to reach.

I can't believe they are all "born with it", as that is now a perfect excuse for any failings I have in my progression.
I KNOW if I put in the time and effort, using that time and effort wisely, I can be an elite level shooter.


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## WhitBri

Mahly said:


> I agree with that.
> I don't believe that the top archers ALL have some great DNA that predetermines that person to be an elite archer.
> Sure some will pick it up better than others. But most of it can be learned. I believe there are a LOT of other people out there that simply don't know what to work on, or don't have the time (or don't make the time) to put in the work it takes to be an elite shooter, that could be if they changed those things.
> 
> Of course, not letting bad shots go is a big part of being a great archer.... But putting yourself in a position of one who doesn't have to worry about it much is key also. If I just didn't let bad shots go, I wouldn't beat Reo....I'd have a 1/2 blank scorecard LOL! Point is, they develop their shot to the point where 99.9% of their shots are "good" shots. It's easy to shoot all good shots when you can go days without a "bad" one coming up. Again, this take some practice and devotion to reach.
> 
> I can't believe they are all "born with it", as that is now a perfect excuse for any failings I have in my progression.
> I KNOW if I put in the time and effort, using that time and effort wisely, I can be an elite level shooter.


I think you are spot on as well. Although I believe the best of the best are born with a set of skill whether mental or physical that make it ever so slightly easier for them to be there, most anyone can get right up there. I have not spent a bunch of time with both these guys but have talked to both. Jesse seems like what I would call one of the naturally gifted that given this and his work has put him at the top of the top. Then Kendall Woody seems like a guy that has put blood sweat and tears into this game for years just like Jesse, Levi, Reo, shoots flat out awesome and on his good days can beat the best, but if Jesse is 1a, Woody is 1b. Not much difference but just a hair. 
So I do believe with hard work and the right work and time commitment most can get there what gets most of us is the commitment. Archery is fun and work is not. Combining the two is something most wont do.


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## slimshady2

:sad: I agree with darton3d it seems that the good shooters are very confident in that it is a rare occurance that they don,t hit the intended mark. Even as the distances are different in 3D the good shooters practice with a vertical tape rarely or not at all but the horizontal tape tells no lies on your judgement of yardage gone bad. This of course negates the rare bad sequence that leads to a bad shot. Good shooters have their routine down pat. No need for rehersal they have done it so many times it is a good practiced habit that is fullproof. Enough said.


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## rsw

Some are graced with superior physical talent/skill, but it is absolutely mental strength that is the key to winning. All those other things, like hard work, superior practice, etc are simply support structures to mental strength.


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## Sasquech

Dena talent won't get you squat. 20,000 arrows to the point it is all automatic is what allows them to relax on the line and in sonnys words hall back and shoot. If we make the investment we can all get there ( baring Parkinson's or ms.....)


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## rohpenguins

There is not one thing that makes the great shooters great it's a combination of everything they do. They have their own system and style and they believe in it. Every top level archer knows they can win and perform well in any event they enter. If I had to pick one thing that sets them apart it would be metal toughness. It's easy to say the only shot that matters is the one you are about to shoot, but harder to do when you just shot 2 fives in a row on a 3D course. Or you shot a 4 on your first shot on a 5 spot round. Most of us have a hard time letting that go until we shoot a few good shots but a lot of shooters that is the beginning of the meltdown. just my 2 cents


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## EPLC

Sasquech said:


> Dena talent won't get you squat. 20,000 arrows to the point it is all automatic is what allows them to relax on the line and in sonnys words hall back and shoot. If we make the investment we can all get there ( baring Parkinson's or ms.....)


I do not believe you can rule out basic ability. Some people just more natural ability to hold steady and are very comfortable in the middle. Others are not and a million arrows won't change that.


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## cbrunson

EPLC said:


> I do not believe you can rule out basic ability. Some people just more natural ability to hold steady and are very comfortable in the middle. Others are not and a million arrows won't change that.


I would agree with this. It came very natural to me at first. I started out five years ago with a cheap 31" axle to axle bow and could shoot low to mid 290s on a Vegas target within a few weeks. I just figured it was because I had a lot of experience shooting guns and knew how to aim.

The interesting thing now, is that I have literally dissected every aspect of my shot when it is working correctly, and the key elements are exactly the same. The mental part is the only thing that has changed.


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## ron w

I have a daughter that will definitely demonstrate that there is such a thing as natural talent. at about 16, and never having a bow in her hands except for NASP, when she was about 14 she shot her first 300 in 5-spot only 6 or 7 mos. after I taught her to shoot. and about 2 weeks. before that , she grabbed one of my zenith comfort3's out of my pouch, in the middle of a league round, pulled off her wrist strap release and started shooting the hinge, like she has been shooting a hinge all her life !.......no coaching from me what so ever on the hinge....she literall just grabbed it and started shooting it !. all I could do was turn away and look for some paper towel....I think you know why !.
well, she didn't need it, and didn't miss a beat, either.. she finished that round, right on her average. IIRF, her average at the time was 296. her comment, when she as done, was "what's the big deal about these releases ?.
when she learned to shoot, she needed very little coaching, I know she was watching me for some time, but I've taught several people to shoot, in my life and I never saw anyone take to archery like she did.
if there is a natural talent for it, she certainly fit that bill.
even today, while it's been several years now, that she shot, due to raising a family, i'd wager she could pick up her bow, and start right where she left off, with a few shots.

I think, many times, when we tear our shot apart and really start working on it, we over complicate things in that search for perfection. 
being taught the right way, is one thing, but it is a lot different than when we learned one way, and then later try to fix what we've been doing wrong, or improving on what we are already doing. I believe that when you are taught, or when you learn to shoot, it sets a default, of sorts, in your shooting, and it is very hard to overcome that default, if something about it is wrong, or poorly shaped.
I believe that's whay we see so many posts about guys trying blind baling or short yardage drills, and have no luck fixing something. it does no good to bale or short bale, when you don't have an understanding of why you are doing it, as a fundamental knowledge, at the time you learn to shoot.


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## montigre

I also believe there are those who have a natural aptitdue for archery; just as there are with any sport. That does not mean that the average dedicated shooter cannot also reach great heights, only that they may have to work much harder at achieving those goals.


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## cbrunson

ron w said:


> I think, many times, when we tear our shot apart and really start working on it, we over complicate things in that search for perfection.
> being taught the right way, is one thing, but it is a lot different than when we learned one way, and then later try to fix what we've been doing wrong, or improving on what we are already doing. I believe that when you are taught, or when you learn to shoot, it sets a default, of sorts, in your shooting, and it is very hard to overcome that default, if something about it is wrong, or poorly shaped.
> I believe that's whay we see so many posts about guys trying blind baling or short yardage drills, and have no luck fixing something. it does no good to bale or short bale, when you don't have an understanding of why you are doing it, as a fundamental knowledge, at the time you learn to shoot.


I think that would depend on the level the person is shooting at. When you're averaging 25-27 Vegas Xs, you have to look at everything you possibly can to figure out how to pick up those last few. At that point, the basics are pretty well covered.


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## ron w

that's actually, more or less "the norm" !. those high aptitude people are far and few between.


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## ron w

cbrunson,
what is basic to a 25-27 x shooter, is not basic to a guy that just learned. we work on our shot at the level we shoot, not below it. we over complicate the level we are at, not the level we were at.
secondly, as far as the basics being covered, I have a question for you,....how many times have you heard, or maybe even thought, yourself,.... "(something's) wrong,...I need to get back to working on the basics and figure out what i'm doing wrong" ?.


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## cbrunson

ron w said:


> cbrunson,
> what is basic to a 25-27 x shooter, is not basic to a guy that just learned. we work on our shot at the level we shoot, not below it. we over complicate the level we are at, not the level we were at.
> secondly, as far as the basics being covered, I have a question for you,....how many times have you heard, or maybe even thought, yourself,.... "(something's) wrong,...I need to get back to working on the basics and figure out what i'm doing wrong" ?.


You're absolutely right. Someone just learning probably shouldn't be self-diagnosing minor inconsistencies. 

It's definately relative to your peers, and who you determine your peers to be. I would think that anyone at the 300-50x+, or 299-15x+(Vegas) level would be far enough along to do some serious studying of their own shot process. That's about where I started really trying to refine mine, and it made a huge difference.


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## Lazarus

The key ingredient to shooting well is *desire.* If you want to go some where bad enough, you will find a way to get there. :cheers:


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## cbrunson

Lazarus said:


> The key ingredient to *shooting well* is *desire.* If you want to go some where bad enough, you will find a way to get there. :cheers:


You sure?

I thought it was moving the goal post. :lol:


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## possum trapper

imho release execution is the #1 key skill and I believe the characteristic of patience and discipline are the keys on where you start out at in archery on how fast you consistently hit the middle.

while people that are born with natural patience and discipline will work on other great things because those 2 things come very easy for them.

I also think most people are great shooters but most lack the patience and discipline and get too impatient while at full draw and shooting major tourneys


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## SonnyThomas

Lazarus said:


> The key ingredient to shooting well is *desire.* If you want to go some where bad enough, you will find a way to get there. :cheers:


A very Key ingredient, DESIRE.


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## Longlost

The thing I notice and see in top archers is serenity... complete calm bordering on a glazed eyes, bored disposition like they don't even care where the arrow hits. Kind of the opposite of target panic or gold/buck fever, death gripping, snap shooting kind of disposition I suppose.


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## bseltzer

Desire yes... But it will only get you so far without discipline, self discipline. Mental & physical. It is the ore from which any alloy can be forged.

Just my 2¢


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## SonnyThomas

bseltzer said:


> Desire yes... But it will only get you so far without discipline, self discipline. Mental & physical. It is the ore from which any alloy can be forged.
> 
> Just my 2¢


Wanting it bad enough one will cover all bases and wanting is desire....


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## zenarch

Sasquech said:


> Dena talent won't get you squat. 20,000 arrows to the point it is all automatic is what allows them to relax on the line and in sonnys words hall back and shoot. If we make the investment we can all get there ( baring Parkinson's or ms.....)


I don't agree. Every sport has it's pinnacle which can only be reached by those who were born with the talent to get there. Can you run a 9.3 second 100 yd. dash by training harder, or broad jump 28 ft., or win the Daytona 500? I don't think so. The sad thing is that there are probably human beings right now who could surpass every record in the book in every sport but never get the opportunity to use the talent they were born with.
Joe B.


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## ron w

some aspects, like that of a sprinter reaching times that are "top of the world class", are actually very physical in nature. the desire is there, certainly, but at that level of competition, the desire to be the fastest in the world, is there in every runner that reaches that potential. 
much of what makes one athlete stand out, is a certain combination of anatomical dimensions that produce the best structure to run faster than everyone else. of course, the training is paramount and even with those certain physical attributes, if the right training doesn't happen, those attributes don't propel him to the top, just because he possesses those physical attributes. 
an good example can be found in bicycle racing. back in the early seventies, East Germany did extensive research in bike racing, looking for what made the best rider. it was established that one with the largest and most efficient cardiovascular system produced riders that could stay at top levels of output for the longest time. it was found that the top bike racers all had one attribute that was common,....that of having a cardio system that was genetically, roughly 30% more efficient at exchanging oxygen, than the average top level competitor of the time. 
this was being studied at a time when top level athletic research was reaching the "state of the art" and they, at that time, set the standards of athletic research, that is still considered the benchmarks for that kind of research, today.
if one has been tuned in to bike racing, it would be noticed that, during those years, "good bike racers", specifically sprinters, went from being stocky and heavily muscled in the legs, to taller thinner and lighter athletes, with longer legs and a generally, "long distance runner" physique. 
it was found that, although heavily muscled athletes produced massive strength to accelerate, the mass of their musculature made the cardio exchange considerably slower and the levels of fresh oxygen in the muscles took it's toll much sooner than those athletes with that favorable physique. 
jump forward to today, look at Husein Boldt (sp?),.... the current 100yd. record holder in running. nobody ever thought he would surface as the top sprinter in the world, he is exactly opposite of what the current sprinter physique is considered to be best. yet, he finishes so far ahead of the rest, that he turns around and crosses the finishing line running backwards !
desire, does certainly play a role. I doubt if any of those runners that ran against him, had less desire than he did, but training and certain physical attributes need to be in place, for desire to be fruitful.


----------



## Donjr721

Staying in the shot from start to finish. Not "quitting" on the shot. Having a strong shot all the way through.


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## rn3

It still all comes down to if you are not holding still in the middle you will miss more times than not, no matter how well your execution is.


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## cbrunson

rn3 said:


> It still all comes down to if you are not holding still in the middle you will miss more times than not, no matter how well your execution is.


Yep.


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## sixstringer4528

Breathing. Don't hear much about breathing on here compared to all of the other factors. It's also a very under looked factor of target panic. If you don't breathe right you can't float properly. Atleast for me.


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## Longlost

Then theres physical advantages. 
Archers who have a long draw have an advantage with faster arrow flight. 
Shorter in height archers are more stable with a lower centre of gravity.
Left handed folk make up 20% of Elite archers but only 5% of population.


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## SonnyThomas

Sasquech said:


> Dena talent won't get you squat. 20,000 arrows to the point it is all automatic is what allows them to relax on the line and in sonnys words hall back and shoot. If we make the investment we can all get there ( baring Parkinson's or ms.....)


Shooting 20,000 arrows with a purpose will do a lot. Humans have this thing about them. Something doesn't go right they'll usually find another "direction." 



EPLC said:


> I do not believe you can rule out basic ability. Some people just more natural ability to hold steady and are very comfortable in the middle. Others are not and a million arrows won't change that.


Agreed.



montigre said:


> I also believe there are those who have a natural aptitdue for archery; just as there are with any sport. That does not mean that the average dedicated shooter cannot also reach great heights, only that they may have to work much harder at achieving those goals.


If we weren't here the better shooters wouldn't have anything to aspire to  



zenarch said:


> I don't agree. Every sport has it's pinnacle which can only be reached by those who were born with the talent to get there. Can you run a 9.3 second 100 yd. dash by training harder, or broad jump 28 ft., or win the Daytona 500? I don't think so. The sad thing is that there are probably human beings right now who could surpass every record in the book in every sport but never get the opportunity to use the talent they were born with.
> Joe B.


I too believe there are people out there that could have broken records, but never were in the position to have the opportunity. And by the same token there are people who could have broke records that don't have the desire to participate.


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## ron w

form is more oriented around consistent repetition. a good execution has that , plus the various conditions that are least upsetting to the form at the time of the shot breaking. 
one might say that consistent repetition is what it's all about in respect to execution, but consider,....a guy that slaps, or punches his release consistently, is never going to perform as well as a guy that has a good execution despite both shooters having good form.
now if these two guys have different form, one being what is considered good recognizable form, and the other having a not so considered good form, but they both have good consistent executions, they will be competitive with their peer group of shooters.


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## montigre

ron w said:


> form is more oriented around consistent repetition. a good execution has that , plus the various conditions that are least upsetting to the form at the time of the shot breaking.
> one might say that consistent repetition is what it's all about in respect to execution, but consider,....a guy that slaps, or punches his release consistently, is never going to perform as well as a guy that has a good execution despite both shooters having good form.
> now if these two guys have different form, one being what is considered good recognizable form, and the other having a not so considered good form, but they both have good consistent executions, they will be competitive with their peer group of shooters.


Not sure where you're going with that, Ron. If you're talking about indoor spot shooting or FITA rounds, then I pretty much have to agree. 

However, if you're speaking of field and some 3D rounds, then due to extremes in the lay of the land, textbook form is often thrown out of the window in favor of a stable and supported shooting platform. In those circumstances, aiming ability, shot execution, and mental fortitude will usually win the day.


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## ron w

what you say is true, but form still has substance in field and 3d. despite the intrusion of poor or uneven footing, we try to gain a solid enough stance that allows our typical "flat ground form" to be as duplicated as possible, under the circumstances.


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## sweet old bill

I think it becomes the 80 / 20 rule and that is 80% is the mental game and 20% is the equiptment.

I see them take the time to shoot arrow after arrow and they know they have to become a machine. The take the time to draw, have a solid ancor, use the sight to make sure they are aiming at a small spot, have the bow arm extended and squeeze the shot off and make sure that bow arm has the follow thru to stay up till they hear or see the arrow hit the target.

they shoot one arrow at a time and if they have a bad arrow, they let if go and strive for all the rest of arrows shot to be in the gold or 12 ring.


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## highwaynorth

Some people are just naturally a lot steadier than others.


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## schnauza2000

I like where Bill is going: top guys, if they shoot a bad arrow, they can let it go and shoot the next one just like nothing happened. Call it what you will, mental toughness, etc? I believe that there's definitely some level of natural talent, and that personality/mentality is very important. With a lot of elite athletes you see the ability to clear their minds, focus, and be entirely in the moment, at least for that moment. They don't beat themselves up, don't try to overcontrol, and just let it flow. The big question is whether that can be coached or whether it's natural- Type A vs Type B. I'm somewhat Type B because I can trust my shot process, but then again I'm also kind of Type A and very critical of myself.

Then of course there's practice and hard work, which is just as important. That's mental _and_ physical. I think that's where you see the 'desire'-- when guys are working all by themselves, months before competition season. Whether that's natural or it can be instilled in a person, who knows? Maybe some of column A, some of column B.


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## subconsciously

Hard work beats talent when talent doesn't work hard.
Tim Notke


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## athomPT

Form
Mental approach
Tuned equipment
Mental approach
Mental approach


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## Padgett

To me Greg Maddox the pitcher from the Braves would be the type of guy that if he had chosen target archery we would be watching him battle with the top dogs in this sport because he was a technician of getting the most out of his body and also finding a way to pitch instead of just throwing the ball.


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## aread

Padgett said:


> To me Greg Maddox the pitcher from the Braves would be the type of guy that if he had chosen target archery we would be watching him battle with the top dogs in this sport because he was a technician of getting the most out of his body and also finding a way to pitch instead of just throwing the ball.


You are right about Maddox. And had he gone archery instead of baseball, he would be as poor as us. 

I once heard a pretty good archery pro say that if he had know that he could get that good at something, he would have chosen golf over archery. The pay is so much better.


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## bowman72

floating the dot in the middle and executing a clean release, period. The arrow will land where the dot or pin is, it really is that simple.


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## Sasquech

80% mental 15% physical conditioning form ... 5% equipment assuming what you have is good and set up properly. Great equipment does not make a great archer. Many however have shot the lights out with mediocre equip and a good head and form


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## PSE 2374

Confidence


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## ron w

i'll pose a couple questions here,.....for those who think "holding in the middle", is the essence of shooting well.

#1,....if you are holding well in the middle and punch the trigger, or rip the hinge off the string, what will most likely happen ?.
#2,....if have a slightly large float range that is fairly evenly distributed, "around" the center, with very well developed and smooth release execution, what do think will likely happen ?.


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## cbrunson

ron w said:


> i'll pose a couple questions here,.....for those who think "holding in the middle", is the essence of shooting well.
> 
> #1,....if you are holding well in the middle and punch the trigger, or rip the hinge off the string, what will most likely happen ?.
> #2,....if have a slightly large float range that is fairly evenly distributed, "around" the center, with very well developed and smooth release execution, what do think will likely happen ?.


1. You will miss a greater percentage of your shots
2. You will miss a greater percentage of your shots

Both are equally important.


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## ron w

nope.


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## EPLC

ron w said:


> i'll pose a couple questions here,.....for those who think "holding in the middle", is the essence of shooting well.
> 
> #1,....if you are holding well in the middle and punch the trigger, or rip the hinge off the string, what will most likely happen ?.
> #2,....if have a slightly large float range that is fairly evenly distributed, "around" the center, with very well developed and smooth release execution, what do think will likely happen ?.


#1 - Bad things.
#2 - Somewhat improved over #1 but will only get you so far. Since I now have had a tiny little taste of what can actually happen with a good hold I'm looking at this through an entirely different set of eyes. If you can truly hold in the middle this game takes on an entirely different perspective. To hang on to the notion that holding is something that can be worked around will continually hold you back. With proper technique, hold can be improved... greatly I'm finding out. I'm not expressing theory... I have been held back for years with this mis-guided belief.

Also, not talking about the essence of shooting "well"... that can be accomplished through many means. What we're talking about is the ability to shoot "great"... you won't accomplish that with a sloppy hold. watch the Vegas shoot off. These guys have all kinds of different form "flaws" yet they all seem to have one thing in common. They can hold in the middle.


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## ron w

where have I suggested the notion, or any kind of theory, that your hold, "cannot be worked on" ?.
you will not find a single coach in existence, that will not contend, that the release execution, is the "boss" of the shot.


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## SonnyThomas

Terry Wunderle; "90% of all bad shots come from a sloppy bow arm." So I'd say a good bow arm and a good release execution goes well towards a good shot, but then the pin has to be sitting or floating well also and a good follow up doesn't hurt.

Got banged up, release arm and separated shoulder. Almost a month of not shooting. Day one, first shot, good. Day two, couldn't draw well and launched a arrow. Bit the bullet and made me draw that second time and a good shot (twin of day one). Day three, managed to draw twice and two good shots. I must be putting something together right.


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## ron w

you can only assume that they can hold in the middle. it's pretty hard to see in a video, from some distance, just how much float they are experiencing at the time. it can only be assumed that the float is minimal, because they are good shooters. as far as a "sloppy hold"....what is considered sloppy will certainly only get you so far, again, where have I assumed that I am comparing an "sloppy hold, to the hold that produces X's. 
there is certainly substance in what you say, but there is no need to "twist" what I say, for the purpose of discounting my post.


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## SonnyThomas

ron w said:


> you can only assume that they can hold in the middle. it's pretty hard to see in a video, from some distance, just how much float they are experiencing at the time. it can only be assumed that the float is minimal, because they are good shooters. as far as a "sloppy hold"....what is considered sloppy will certainly only get you so far, again, where have I assumed that I am comparing an "sloppy hold, to the hold that produces X's.
> there is certainly substance in what you say, but there is no need to "twist" what I say, for the purpose of discounting my post.


?????????


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## erdman41

ron w said:


> i'll pose a couple questions here,.....for those who think "holding in the middle", is the essence of shooting well.
> 
> #1,....if you are holding well in the middle and punch the trigger, or rip the hinge off the string, what will most likely happen ?.
> #2,....if have a slightly large float range that is fairly evenly distributed, "around" the center, with very well developed and smooth release execution, what do think will likely happen ?.


Both will produce 50x games. Neither will produce a 60x game.


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## Lazarus

:happy1:


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## cbrunson

ron w said:


> you can only assume that they can hold in the middle. it's pretty hard to see in a video, from some distance, just how much float they are experiencing at the time. it can only be assumed that the float is minimal, because they are good shooters. as far as a "sloppy hold"....what is considered sloppy will certainly only get you so far, again, where have I assumed that I am comparing an "sloppy hold, to the hold that produces X's.
> there is certainly substance in what you say, but there is no need to "twist" what I say, for the purpose of discounting my post.


Why is this even an argument?


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## Lazarus

cbrunson said:


> Why is this even an argument?


Because there were decent shooters from years ago that believed the most accurate shot could be shot by (ok, I'll break a personal rule and use the horrendous term) "floating" the pin. 

It may have been an adequate technique back in the day. But if you want to excel beyond "intermediate to advanced," in this day and age you don't (here is comes again) "float" anything. 

You do NOT shoot 30x Vegas rounds by "letting it f706t and shoot the shot." Like you said, shouldn't even be a discussion.


----------



## cbrunson

EPLC said:


> #1 - Bad things.
> #2 - Somewhat improved over #1 but will only get you so far. Since I now have had a tiny little taste of what can actually happen with a good hold I'm looking at this through an entirely different set of eyes. If you can truly hold in the middle this game takes on an entirely different perspective. To hang on to the notion that holding is something that can be worked around will continually hold you back. With proper technique, hold can be improved... greatly I'm finding out. I'm not expressing theory... I have been held back for years with this mis-guided belief.
> 
> Also, not talking about the essence of shooting "well"... that can be accomplished through many means. What we're talking about is the ability to shoot "great"... you won't accomplish that with a sloppy hold. watch the Vegas shoot off. These guys have all kinds of different form "flaws" yet they all seem to have one thing in common. They can hold in the middle.


Very few will experience this. As long as they are stuck in the "trust your float" mentality, they never will. Trusting it is the right thing to do when you actually CAN hold it there, not before.


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## ron w

you know when I first heard the term..... "float",..... right here on AT in about 2000, I was not a member before then. is that the "years ago" that you refer to ?. surely you, Lazerus, were on this sight at that time, I remember your name from then and surely there are no different issues being discussed now, than there were in 2000 and the elements of a typically good shot was surely the same then, as they are today. perhaps you can educate me on the subject. 
so again, there's no reason to twist what people say to make their posts look deficit.
by the infliction of your comment, can I assume you have no pin, or dot, or ring movement when you "aim", or whatever it is you want to call what you do, when you shoot ?.


----------



## Lazarus

ron w said:


> perhaps you can educate me on the subject.


Have you ever seen the first "300" target shot in major competition by Bob Bitner? Have you ever seen Terry Ragsdales targets from his first clean Vegas round? 

Now.

Have you seen what a normal 300 Vegas target from today looks like? Or even better, a 30x Vegas target? 

You're an intelligent man ronw, use that melon, you can figure out what I'm saying.


----------



## Padgett

I am 100% sold on float being a good thing in function and mental mindset, right now that I have grown as a shooter and am starting to see things come together float has really started changing not mentally but what I am watching what is happening.

So what does that mean?

Very simply, my float is shrinking to the point where it is just sitting still in the x during my shot window when I am executing the shot on a regular basis. Basically I am coming to anchor and settling in on the x and about a half second to second into the shot my pin just stops and sits there inside the x somewhere, it may not be in the center and many times it is centered but a lot of the time it isn't. It seems to be doing this up to 2 seconds and then it begins to move again slightly.

Now right now like I said I am still 100% sold on floating and the mentality behind it because I am only 4 years into learning to shoot at a high level and this was something that I had to commit to just like being a hinge shooter. So I committed. But right now I am totally without target panic and I have absolutely no mental issues that i am working towards eliminating when it comes to shooting on a daily basis so it is so stinking inviting to just wait until the pin comes to a stop in the x and once it is there keep it there. I actually think I am mentally strong enough because I am not hiding any issues with control or target panic that i am actually ready to go ahead and do this but I have been resisting the urge.

Why am I resisting the urge? Because I am still shrinking my float. When I mentioned my pin pausing inside the x somewhere I wasn't implying that my pin was floating outside the x before or after, when I was a new hinge shooter yes my float was larger than the x and many times it touched the blue and as the first year passed by it did shrink and my .19 pin would leave the ring just a little every shot and come right back in. When I became a 60x shooter in the second year of hinge shooting my pin was within the x most of the time but at least 15 out of 60 shots it would simply leave two or three times during those shots and I had to hope that the hinge didn't fire when the pin was outside the x. During those first couple years I was excited to actually hit a inside out x and if one end of 5-spot resulted in a couple inside out x's I was really happy. This winter things changed for the better because now my pin basically floats inside out almost 100% of the time before and after it comes to a complete stop during my shot window. Right now if a shot isn't a inside out x I consider it a failure even though it is still a good shot because it had a chance of missing and to be a really strong shooter I am trying to eliminate those shots that even have a chance at missing.

All of this has been done with floating, to me floating simply means that you are watching the pin move back and forth over the center of the spot you are trying to hit and when it leaves the spot a little you don't grab onto it and fix the problem. Floating doesn't mean that I am not doing things to help the pin sit still, I am finding that not having any muscles contracted in the front arm or forearm or hand or shoulder really really really makes a big difference. The moment that I feel a twitch in my shoulder or forearm the pin jumps or moves off center so in my shooting or training I work on having absolutely no random muscle contractions in my front arm. In fact any muscle contractions in my rear end also screw up the float and cause it to move off center.

Your body if you eliminate all little muscle contractions has the ability to basically sit the pin really still with a very small float but you have to work on it. I think that most people have these muscle contractions on most shots that are connected to their target panic issues and their firing engine issues so they feel the need to force the pin to sit still because of all the inputs they are giving to the pin in a bad way. Good form and posture and a conscious effort to eliminate all the little inputs are what I am using to get where I am.

I would suggest for anyone that hasn't done it to do some let down shots where you aren't firing the arrow and study your natural float, the easiest way to see the natural float is to make a decision to not fire a arrow. What you are going to find is that your body feels different when it knows that it isn't firing the arrow and it will relax and allow you to see the natural float possibly for the first time. I did this by accident when buddy told me I needed to start letting down on the 3d course instead of shooting bad shots. I went home and practiced letting down because I had trouble doing it and that is when I accidentally saw my natural float and I can remember wanting to shoot with it because it was freaking awesome. That sent me down a road of paying attention to everything that was screwing it up and finding the methods that didn't screw it up.


----------



## SonnyThomas

I used float up above, but I sure wish the term would go away. What I see; The pin is dead, just sitting there (sure looks it). My arrow doesn't go there it's me doing something dumb on the bow end. I can't be all that dumb because I do shoot pretty decent. Might have to lay off the diet coke...or maybe lay off cigarettes....On second thought I'll lay off the diet coke.


----------



## cbrunson

Padgett said:


> Floating doesn't mean that I am not doing things to help the pin sit still, I am finding that not having any muscles contracted in the front arm or forearm or hand or shoulder really really really makes a big difference. The moment that I feel a twitch in my shoulder or forearm the pin jumps or moves off center so in my shooting or training I work on having absolutely no random muscle contractions in my front arm. In fact any muscle contractions in my rear end also screw up the float and cause it to move off center.


Sounds familiar.


----------



## Stringster

Keeping steady for sure


----------



## ron w

Lazarus said:


> Have you ever seen the first "300" target shot in major competition by Bob Bitner? Have you ever seen Terry Ragsdales targets from his first clean Vegas round?
> 
> Now.
> 
> Have you seen what a normal 300 Vegas target from today looks like? Or even better, a 30x Vegas target?
> 
> yes I've seen most of the top pros Vegas targets, in person, in 2005 and 2006, when I shot at Vegas. they don't look any different today, than then, either. they are impressive and I've T.R's targets in person, at the Milwaukee Sentinel sports show in 1976, when I shot there. it was tournament that was as big as Vegas and Cobo Hall. I also know that, at both tournaments, the 30x rounds were shot by floating in the center, not aiming and holding rigidly, and yes, thank-you,... I am an intelligent man,.... and know that you can't hold dead still on a target, by "aiming",.... so what so what are you trying to say ?.
> now, ....you are an intelligent man, as well, enough so, I would assume, to realize you can't hold dead still on any target, and what movement there is, is commonly called "float". use that melon.


----------



## cbrunson

ron you are too funny. :lol:


----------



## CTGuenthner

They practice. A lot. some of the pros I personally know shoot 300-500 arrows a day and that's what the difference is. They are prepped mentally and physically to stand on the line and pound xs. They've been there before they can do it again. After so long that form and mindset is engrained in them.


----------



## Lazarus

ron w said:


> I've seen most of the top pros Vegas targets, in person, in 2005 and 2006, when I shot at Vegas. they don't look any different today,


You must not be talking about archery. If that is your *opinion* There is no reason to continue this discussion. 



ron w said:


> so what so what are you trying to say ?


See answer directly above. :cheers:


----------



## rn3

The guys that are shooting basically one hole targets are not letting their dot float.


----------



## Huntinsker

I haven't read everyone's responses but I think this is why some just have "it" and why some don't.

http://www.kslinternationalarchery....on_Evaluation_of_Attention_and_Relaxation.pdf

http://www.biocybernaut.com/alpha-brain-waves/

http://www.peakperformancetraining.org/sitefiles/articles/fitness.htm

In summary, the archers who can increase their attention and relaxation while shooting shoot better than those who can not. We can all hit the X but it's those of us that have a brain that will allow us to hit it when it counts that are the "good shots".


----------



## possum trapper

ron w said:


> i'll pose a couple questions here,.....for those who think "holding in the middle", is the essence of shooting well.
> 
> #1,....if you are holding well in the middle and punch the trigger, or rip the hinge off the string, what will most likely happen ?.
> #2,....if have a slightly large float range that is fairly evenly distributed, "around" the center, with very well developed and smooth release execution, what do think will likely happen ?.


IMHO
#1 im not sure
#2 it pounds the center


----------



## ron w

to me, "float" it doesn't mean wandering on the white. I think some of you guys have the conception that when someone says "float", they're talking about a guy that you see his stab wobbling around from 50 yards away. I really don't think anyone is foolish enough to think that, but I might be wrong. there are however, guys that also believe "back tension, is a myth, out there some where. although, it's hard for me to consider that anyone intelligent enough to discuss archery at this level, would ascribe to such a preposterous idea.

rn3, 
I can guarantee you they are not sitting dead still, on the X, rigidly stationary, either.

" float, is just a name given to the movement of the pin or dot as seen in the sight picture, when shooting. it can be as large as the entire bulls eye or as small as to be barely noticeable, but I guarantee you it is never completely gone.
and of course, obviously, the smaller the movement is, the better your shooting. 
never the less, it is all called "float".


----------



## ron w

cbrunson,
just wondering,..... have you ever been to the Vegas tournament ?.


----------



## cbrunson

ron w said:


> cbrunson,
> just wondering,..... have you ever been to the Vegas tournament ?.


No I haven't. Last year was my first year shooting any national tournaments and I had to choose between Vegas and Redding. I chose Redding. Why do you ask?


----------



## SonnyThomas

Facebook. I'm Friends with Chance B. Don't know remember who said it, but he was with Chance when Chance had a laser on his bow. Said was the only way the laser dot would have moved is if someone had pushed Chance. Now, that's a pretty solid "float."


----------



## Huntinsker

SonnyThomas said:


> Facebook. I'm Friends with Chance B. Don't know remember who said it, but he was with Chance when Chance had a laser on his bow. Said was the only way the laser dot would have moved is if someone had pushed Chance. Now, that's a pretty solid "float."



Go to minute 7:00 in this video to see it. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NhbI6z_OdLE


----------



## TNMAN

Trust your float and shoot the shot? ---> Might mean different things to different people.

http://www.newscientist.com/gallery/amnh-archive/5

Have always been an aimer myself, so personally never really in love with the general idea. Won't object if that shot thought helps someone else.

edit: KY ballgame is coming on


----------



## "TheBlindArcher"

...I guess that I've got to find that same particular skill of execution that the better archers have found.[/QUOTE]


I think no, you need to find that particular skill of execution that makes you better... 

And in one of your earlier posts I think you touched on something; something about thinking your commitment to practice and should be a better shot (paraphrase)... Most of us probably [practice as much as we can, but most of us also have careers... I'm guessing for many of these top shooters practice, training, competition IS their career. Imagine if we could spend 8 hours a day, 5 or more days a week not just shooting, but truly practicing, training, working on our weaknesses, focusing everything we do in life towards hitting that next "X" 

Also, I think there could be something said about the difference between "knowing" what works for you and "understanding" what works for you. The theory behind the execution as it were. . The ability to change the execution based of the theory, not the knowledge. 

"Knowledge is knowing a tomato is a fruit... Wisdom is knowing not to put a tomato in a fruit salad."


----------



## 4 Fletch

I know a PGA pro who when asked the secret to playing like the pros, said, "100 balls per day per club." 

Having been taught how to shoot rifle at age 11, as a teenager in Space Cadets i made the rifle team first try. All of our shooting was in prone position. 

After stock length, alignment, positioning, breathing, and all the mechanical stuff is looked after, it comes down to practice. Our CO had some connections and was a scrounger, so he ensured team members shot 1,000 rounds a week before competitions. 

Shooting that much meant -- to me, anyway -- that after a while I was simply_ thinking _the bullet into the X. 

I pictured that little lead sucker punching thru the paper right at the center of the X. Eventually it became second nature. The only thing that ever got in my way was day-of-competition nerves. (Hey, I was a teenager; aka a hormone with feet.) 

After I quit cadets I didn't shoot until taking a pistol safety course about 15 years later. On the final day the instructor brought out a pile of guns for class members to try. Everybody wanted to shoot his Ruger Mini 30. Not having shot in so long, I went last. 

Offhand (standing) I shot a 2-inch group at 25 yards, which shut up the two clowns who'd been bragging all weekend about how much they knew, and who barely hit paper in the real world. 

"It" came back, like bicycle riding. 

I think if I were able to shoot even 50 arrows a day, I'd get pretty good. If I could shoot 200 a day, I'd leave my back yard and attend some local meets.


----------



## Padgett

You know one of the things I hate is wasting time, I was blind to all of the current shooting methods and was just shooting with my fingers in my back yard for almost 30 years and then I got lucky and got on track and have learned many of the things that that have lead me to some really pleasing good shooting. 

But something just sucked a good 8 months of life out of my 3d shooting, a stinking new bow. I got it in august and I put my 3d rest and sight on it and I have been committed to it for all 8 months shooting it outside exclusively and for those 8 months there are certain things that I had forgotten what it felt like to see happen.

Things I haven't seen for 8 months:

1. My arrows hitting behind the pin

2. shooting sessions where I didn't have to move the windage

3. Poor executions where my arrow still nailed the 12 ring.

4. Arrows being slapped at 40 or 50 yards.

I think this weekend was the straw that broke the camels back because on saturday I went out and I was shooting at two spots with 5 arrows at 40 yards and I was moving my windage trying to get the bow sighted in dead on and finally after two hours I was pretty confident. Then I went to the bow shoot on sunday and the first thing I had to do when getting out of the car was move the windage again and during the shoot on the course I moved the windage a couple more times. I kept floating on the 25 yard shots and feeling pretty good executions of the shots and my arrows simply weren't hitting the 12 rings over and over and over. 

I went home and the doubts in my personal ability were creeping in that I just wasn't as good anymore and about 4 miles from home I without any thought before hand decided to strip it down and put my stuff back on my old target bow. 

I have been smoking dead on accurate for the last two days and the things that I had experienced all last year have started coming back:

1. I can't shoot more than one arrow at 40 yards without breaking nocks.

2. My arrows are hitting right behind the pin

3. If I am hitting a little left I put in a click and the arrow moves right over dead on

4. even when I shoot a poor shot execution my arrow still hits the 12 ring

5. When I shot the first shot and I hit on the edge of the 12 ring not really solid at 40 yards I then shoot a second arrow on the other side of the 12 ring and hit that side of the 12 ring.

My old bow is a bowtech specialist that i have shot since late 2010 and it always has treated me good, I have always wondered what it would feel like to shoot a hoyt pro comp xl or a pse target bow but I don't have one of them to see the difference. All I know is that I have wasted the last 8 months on a bow that simply never produced any consistent accuracy for a day or week or even one shooting session. 

Did I mention I hate wasting time?


----------



## Mahly

I think you found maybe another attribute of a top shooter....Knowing when to say when.

If something doesn't work right away, we owe it to ourselves to give it some time to see how we as shooters adjust. Making decisions on how something worked with only trying it for a day can get us to make poor decisions. Either thinking something is great, then we find out a few weeks (or months) later that it isn't any better....just different. Or worse, thinking something we did was NOT any better...but if we would have left it alone for a while it may have proved itself.

But there does come a time when you just have to say "Nope, this is JUST not working" and try something different...or go back to what we know works.

We get it drilled in our heads to "give it time"...sometimes we give it more than it's worth.

It seems your old bow just works better for you. Add the increased confidence you will have with your shooting to the increased accuracy you get with this bow...... Sounds like your in for a hell of an outdoor season!


----------



## aread

Padgett, have you figured out what is different about the new bow?


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## Padgett

You know I don't know what is wrong with the cpxl, it shoots very smooth and I love the draw cycle. It has always been very easy to tune to have very good arrow flight and produce good bare shaft results. In fact I like everything about the bow from the appearance to the feel.

I just don't know why it doesn't hold its windage and it spits arrows low and high also, at home I see it when I am shooting at lets say 40 yards and I float right on the 12 ring and the next thing I know there is a arrow sitting 3 inches high for no freaking reason because I had a nice execution with good follow through and it is just up there. 

To me it is probably in the cams, they are huge and very light and very cut out in their design and I have a feeling that they just have some flex in them. Enough flex that they spit out the arrows ever so slightly different depending on the shooter input such as a little extra pressure into the wall or something. I guess that the limbs could be shifting in the limb pockets or there could be some play in the cam on the axle, you know what there could be many things adding up to the problem at hand. The problem is that it is taking someone who can shoot 12 rings all day long at 40 yards and making me feel like a stinking failure.

I have won a couple 3d shoots this year locally but even at them I left the course wondering what was wrong with me because I just left so many points on the course for missing left and right. Ok, I don't miss left and right. With my local buddies if I miss a 12 ring a couple inches left or right one time in a couple weeks they notice and comment. Hell, lately they look at me like is something wrong are you feeling ok are you not shooting well today. Crap, internally I am standing there thinking how many good executions do I have to have today and simply not have anything to show for it.

Did i mention that it took about 3 minutes to strip all the stuff off that stinking thing.


----------



## tmorelli

aread said:


> Thank you for your responses. I don't disagree with anyone.
> 
> However, I'm looking for something more basic than confidence. Confidence, real confidence, comes from shooting good. They know they will hit the X because they have done it thousands of times before. It's a result of shooting good, not the reason that they shoot good. They have to build the confidence by first shooting good.
> 
> I'm trying to figure out what skill or ability that they have that allows them to build that confidence.
> 
> rn3 may be onto something with the steady bow arm. But I don't think that's the complete answer.
> 
> Mahly's combination (cool quote by the way) is part of it, but again, I don't think it's the complete answer.
> 
> Maybe I'm looking for some magic drill, like if you stand on one leg while shooting 1,000 arrows, you are guaranteed a win at a big tournament. Silly example, but, it just seems like I should be getting better scores for the effort I put into archery. Fortunately, I enjoy shooting a bow, even with the crappy scores. But I think that shooting better scores would be even more fun.
> 
> Allen


Chicken or the egg really. I'm probably "supposed to" totally disagree that confidence is a result of peak performance but I straddle the fence here and appreciate what you're saying. Perhaps the real answer is, both. It has been said that every gold medalist believed and dreamed (visualized) they could/would perform at that moment/level long before they did. Even personally I describe my practice in two distinct styles.... Training, which is paying my dues and learning from my mistakes.... Confidence building, which is where I practice exactly as I want/expect to perform. I have to switch internally to keep my brain from "working on things" in the later. But to the point about the Olympians, whether training or confidence building, the foundational belief must always be there....even, or especially, on those hard days.


There is no simple answer to your question but I believe in the mental aspect of the sport. I witness its misuse and abuse at every tournament. Its proper use is rare and easily identifiable.... The owners are normally on the podium. 

If I boil it down to the moment, winners "let it shoot".... Losers " make it shoot". The difference is confidence, trust, peace of mind and patience.


----------



## aread

Padgett said:


> You know I don't know what is wrong with the cpxl, it shoots very smooth and I love the draw cycle. It has always been very easy to tune to have very good arrow flight and produce good bare shaft results. In fact I like everything about the bow from the appearance to the feel.
> 
> I just don't know why it doesn't hold its windage and it spits arrows low and high also, at home I see it when I am shooting at lets say 40 yards and I float right on the 12 ring and the next thing I know there is a arrow sitting 3 inches high for no freaking reason because I had a nice execution with good follow through and it is just up there.
> 
> To me it is probably in the cams, they are huge and very light and very cut out in their design and I have a feeling that they just have some flex in them. Enough flex that they spit out the arrows ever so slightly different depending on the shooter input such as a little extra pressure into the wall or something. I guess that the limbs could be shifting in the limb pockets or there could be some play in the cam on the axle, you know what there could be many things adding up to the problem at hand. The problem is that it is taking someone who can shoot 12 rings all day long at 40 yards and making me feel like a stinking failure.
> 
> I have won a couple 3d shoots this year locally but even at them I left the course wondering what was wrong with me because I just left so many points on the course for missing left and right. Ok, I don't miss left and right. With my local buddies if I miss a 12 ring a couple inches left or right one time in a couple weeks they notice and comment. Hell, lately they look at me like is something wrong are you feeling ok are you not shooting well today. Crap, internally I am standing there thinking how many good executions do I have to have today and simply not have anything to show for it.
> 
> Did i mention that it took about 3 minutes to strip all the stuff off that stinking thing.


Specialist to CPXL - you lost 5" of ATA. No wonder you are having problems with, a bow that for you, is a short bow. Have you looked at how you accommodate the different string angles?
Short bows are my pet peeve. I bet if you took a video of yourself shooting both bows, you would instantly see the problem with the CPLX.

JMHO,
Allen


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## Seadonist

Just started archery but I would go out on a limb and say it's the same thing that makes you good at golf, tennis, fishing, etc. Properly fitted equipment, comfortable form, and confidence.


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## Padgett

The cpxl actually had almost identical string angles as the specialist, the specialist is a 37.5 ata bow and the cpxl is a 35 ata bow but the cams on the cpxl are so big that it actually is the same size as the specialist.


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## slimshady2

:wink: I like the idea that if you keep the pin in the middle you will most likely hit your target. The great and consistent archers have in the process many more developed skills so the pin will stay on the target time after time.


----------



## Padgett

I am learning a thing or two watching my buddy Jason Dickey right now, he is a really good shooter but what is setting him on top of the podium at the iowa pro am and Lancasters is his ability to shoot right through his nervous energy. In mid november we started shooting leagues and both of us were dropping 9's after warming up perfect as soon as the scoring rounds started because that nervous energy dominated us. Both of us improved and we talked about it all the time but the difference between us is that he is doing it at the national level and winning. 

We shoot 40 some tournaments together per year and right now I haven't really been asking that many questions because he is on a run and infact he just bought a plane ticket to vegas today and is leaving tomorrow morning. Last night we had a good pro shooter show up to our league night and it was basically a big party for his big lancaster win and we had his shoot down on the big tv and Jason totally stepped up and shot a 325 vegas round with everyone watching. Every arrow was inside out except for a few touching the line but none were on the outer edge. 

The ability to produce that kind of shooting and win and then do it when everyone is there for your party is making him special compared to most of us mortals.


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## EPLC

Learn the simple 2 step process:

1. Learn how to shoot an X
2. Repeat step 1


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## yeroc

believing in your self and abilities is huge for me.knowing the difference between good shots and bad
shots is a must.recognizing and working on weaknesses helps me.


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## redman

Great info


----------



## wv hoyt man

Good read.


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## mike 66

you are only as good as you can hold!!!!


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## rn3

mike 66 said:


> you are only as good as you can hold!!!!


Exactly!


----------



## highwaynorth

ron w said:


> you can only assume that they can hold in the middle. it's pretty hard to see in a video, from some distance, just how much float they are experiencing at the time. it can only be assumed that the float is minimal, because they are good shooters. as far as a "sloppy hold"....what is considered sloppy will certainly only get you so far, again, where have I assumed that I am comparing an "sloppy hold, to the hold that produces X's.
> there is certainly substance in what you say, but there is no need to "twist" what I say, for the purpose of discounting my post.


They can hold in the middle. I have some old NFAA shooter school tapes by Bernie Pellerite. There was a pro 3d shooter in his class
and they video taped him with a laser on his bow at a distance of 20 yds. The laser dot NEVER left the X on a five spot face. I
believe it was Randy Hendrix.


----------



## dmacey

Well I dunno... I find these claims (here and there) of "I can hold with no movement at all" possibly a bit exaggerated. In fact, I was watching this video of John Dudley shooting a 300 recently. It's from a good angle where you can see his scope against a white background a few yards away in many of the shots and, to me, there's a definite "float". But he puts all 30 of em in the 10 ring. I find this very inspiring:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=63vL0oWS9Vs

DM


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## EPLC

The more I work on and think about the various components of my game the more I believe alignment is one of the most important aspects of shooting well. My shoulder injury, combined with the necessity of shooting lower poundage's has really brought this to the forefront. Alignment is a funny thing and it's not enough to obtain "picture perfect" alignment... as demonstrated by many of the more successful archers. IMO, proper alignment is the one that allows me to pull through the shot without pulling my sight from the target. For me this has always been an elusive thing to master. If the alignment isn't there the sight will move away from the intended target causing a stop and go to make corrections process. It's easy to say, "just pull through the shot", but when your sight is being pulled off target this becomes very difficult.


----------



## RJR

Rip-N-Pray said:


> Archery is 90% mental and only 10% form and equipment


I agree with this 100%. Continuous quality practice builds our subconscious for control and consistency.
I didn't become an archer until I understood this concept.
Joe


----------



## Jarhead88

There is a lot of great advice here.. and I have to say I've heard it before, long ago. I'm have been a golf professional for over 25 years and this all sounds like advice I got back in the beginning. I am a competitive player and have played in many of my local sectional events as well as many national events. when I started I practiced relentlessly to find that "secret", talked with all the champions to find that "Secret".... and all I found out was everyone is different. There was a point in all their careers that they found out that one thing that made them play better. And each was different...!!
Golf and Archery are similar. Golf is much more complex but to get to that top level both are hard and frustrating. Both need good fundamental, very important. but we are all a little different and there some fundementals that are nonnegotiable in golf and archery, but a lot are negotiable!!!!. some pros lean back, switch ancher pionts, etc.. 

And the comments about "mental side" and confidence is so true. Believe in yourself, if you go lights out one day, a "Hot Streak"... that is your true potential!!! find out how you were thinking then, emotions..calmness!!! so important. that is what you are capable of, no excuses... work at it.

Also the comments about "stop blaming the equipment" are right on. I switched equipment so often as a young pro until I shot my first 66... then I finally realized if I did it once with say this "putter" I can do it again. when you finally take that excuse out of your mind then you will start looking to improve yourself instead. It made my golf game jump up a level, so important.

Now I have only been in archery just a couple of years and really love it. I love shooting in my leagues and want to improve every week. I just shot my best score at my 3D range last week and asked about using a different release... how stupid I am...!!!! and my buddy said to me "You just shot 321!!! why the hell would you switch?" and it dawned on me... I'm an idiot..

Just my two cents....
thansk


----------



## EPLC

RJR said:


> I agree with this 100%. Continuous quality practice builds our subconscious for control and consistency.
> I didn't become an archer until I understood this concept.
> Joe


I would agree that this is true for the most part but mental control will only produce results that fall within the range your physical abilities.


----------



## montigre

Jarhead88 said:


> And the comments about "mental side" and confidence is so true. Believe in yourself, if you go lights out one day, a "Hot Streak"... that is your true potential!!! find out how you were thinking then, emotions..calmness!!! so important. that is what you are capable of, no excuses... work at it.


This is golden. Thanks, Jarhead for sharing your insight as a long-standing pro. All of us, myself included, fail to recognize those "hot streak" days as being a measure of our true potential in this sport. We talk it down by stating it was only a fluke and make other excuses to support our inner feeling that we're really not that good. We spend far too much time subconsciously sabotaging our efforts to be the best we can be and then wonder why we've been sitting on the same plateau for so long. 

We all should just give ourselves permission to be our best regardless of the subconscious fears that may be present. Yes, an injury or age may shave a few points off a past best performance, but the ability to achieve one's maximum performance remains with the athlete, probably throughout his/her life.


----------



## aread

Jarhead88 said:


> There is a lot of great advice here.. and I have to say I've heard it before, long ago. I'm have been a golf professional for over 25 years and this all sounds like advice I got back in the beginning. I am a competitive player and have played in many of my local sectional events as well as many national events. when I started I practiced relentlessly to find that "secret", talked with all the champions to find that "Secret".... and all I found out was everyone is different. There was a point in all their careers that they found out that one thing that made them play better. And each was different...!!
> Golf and Archery are similar. Golf is much more complex but to get to that top level both are hard and frustrating. Both need good fundamental, very important. but we are all a little different and there some fundementals that are nonnegotiable in golf and archery, but a lot are negotiable!!!!. some pros lean back, switch ancher pionts, etc..
> 
> And the comments about "mental side" and confidence is so true. Believe in yourself, if you go lights out one day, a "Hot Streak"... that is your true potential!!! find out how you were thinking then, emotions..calmness!!! so important. that is what you are capable of, no excuses... work at it.
> 
> Also the comments about "stop blaming the equipment" are right on. I switched equipment so often as a young pro until I shot my first 66... then I finally realized if I did it once with say this "putter" I can do it again. when you finally take that excuse out of your mind then you will start looking to improve yourself instead. It made my golf game jump up a level, so important.
> 
> Now I have only been in archery just a couple of years and really love it. I love shooting in my leagues and want to improve every week. I just shot my best score at my 3D range last week and asked about using a different release... how stupid I am...!!!! and my buddy said to me "You just shot 321!!! why the hell would you switch?" and it dawned on me... I'm an idiot..
> 
> Just my two cents....
> thansk


Good stuff here!! Thanks for posting Jarhead!!!


----------



## EPLC

EPLC said:


> The more I work on and think about the various components of my game the more I believe alignment is one of the most important aspects of shooting well. My shoulder injury, combined with the necessity of shooting lower poundage's has really brought this to the forefront. Alignment is a funny thing and it's not enough to obtain "picture perfect" alignment... as demonstrated by many of the more successful archers. IMO, proper alignment is the one that allows me to pull through the shot without pulling my sight from the target. For me this has always been an elusive thing to master. If the alignment isn't there the sight will move away from the intended target causing a stop and go to make corrections process. It's easy to say, "just pull through the shot", but when your sight is being pulled off target this becomes very difficult.


As an example: I have a shooting machine. When aiming and executing I have no difficulty making a smooth shot. I also owned for a short time a crossbow that while benched could hit X after X at 50 yards without any issues. Add movement to the equation and you have a new ballgame. The ability to pull through the shot w/o pulling yourself off target is a physical skill. While one may learn and develop this skill, it's just like everything else in life, sme are just better suited both mentally and physically than others. That's why people such as Tom Brady make the big bucks.


----------



## RJR

EPLC said:


> I would agree that this is true for the most part but mental control will only produce results that fall within the range your physical abilities.


If by physical ability you include mind and body, I would completely agree. I don't think they are separate, you cannot control target panic with pure physical ability, the body pulls the string and the mind releases the arrow. I believe archery is a mental game versus a physical act of precision in pulling and releasing.


----------



## dmacey

RJR said:


> If by physical ability you include mind and body, I would completely agree. I don't think they are separate, you cannot control target panic with pure physical ability, the body pulls the string and the mind releases the arrow. I believe archery is a mental game versus a physical act of precision in pulling and releasing.


For me, the body pulls the string but the release aid releases the arrow. The way I learned it, this is the art of the "surprise" shot, a combination of technology and technique that relieves your mind of the task of having to performing the release. So I side with EPLC on this one - I think the mental game is made a bit too much of, or at least, at my shooting level it is. All I do is increase pressure against the back wall and otherwise just keep my eye on the dot and wait for the shot to go off.

Even when I shot recurve, the clicker controlled the release in the final analysis, even tho my body relaxed the fingers....

But as always, I beg forgiveness if I've misunderstood any remarks,

DM


----------



## Jarhead88

montigre said:


> This is golden. Thanks, Jarhead for sharing your insight as a long-standing pro. All of us, myself included, fail to recognize those "hot streak" days as being a measure of our true potential in this sport. We talk it down by stating it was only a fluke and make other excuses to support our inner feeling that we're really not that good. We spend far too much time subconsciously sabotaging our efforts to be the best we can be and then wonder why we've been sitting on the same plateau for so long.
> 
> We all should just give ourselves permission to be our best regardless of the subconscious fears that may be present. Yes, an injury or age may shave a few points off a past best performance, but the ability to achieve one's maximum performance remains with the athlete, probably throughout his/her life.


It really helped me so much when I wasn't afraid to fail... or post a bad score... I find it ironic when I see golfers at my club (I'm a Head Golf Professional at a country club) busting on guys taking lessons and practicing a lot. They make fun of them for trying hard....! They are afraid to put in any effort because it might not pay off, so they don't even try. But they'll bust on people that do. I expose them as much as I can...hahaha not very professional but it feels good...hahah 

Another great tip is your preshot routine... in golf it is so so important. It helps calm the nerves and gets you to do the same thing all the time. clears out negative thoughts and helps you focus. The days you shoot well will be the days that you can concentrate and are not distracted. you will see the target better and the release will go off better. I brought a lot of what I do in golf to archery and it helps a lot!!! I was very nervous my first year in this league and used my preshot routine to help me shot my highest score at that time and win the league.. It works.

Lots of great thoughts on this thread...


----------



## RJR

All your efforts are designed to trick yourself; you are using external mechanisms to tell your mind to release the arrow. There is no surprise shot; your subconscious is making the shot.
You really think an archer can hold the site pin perfectly on the x, or instinctive shooting is really instinctive?
Your subconscious makes the calculations without you even knowing, your subconscious uses the experienced gained through practice and repetition. The physical ability is the part were in some, the body responds better to the subconscious messages. Some people are obviously physically superior than others, but i believe it's less of an impact in archery. 



dmacey said:


> For me, the body pulls the string but the release aid releases the arrow. The way I learned it, this is the art of the "surprise" shot, a combination of technology and technique that relieves your mind of the task of having to performing the release. So I side with EPLC on this one - I think the mental game is made a bit too much of, or at least, at my shooting level it is. All I do is increase pressure against the back wall and otherwise just keep my eye on the dot and wait for the shot to go off.
> 
> Even when I shot recurve, the clicker controlled the release in the final analysis, even tho my body relaxed the fingers....
> 
> But as always, I beg forgiveness if I've misunderstood any remarks,
> 
> DM


----------



## AngelRa

Living with an elite "TEAM USA" archer in the house made me realize that elite archers are about 80% born ability and 20% practice and knowledge.


----------



## SonnyThomas

RJR said:


> All your efforts are designed to trick yourself; you are using external mechanisms to tell your mind to release the arrow. There is no surprise shot; your subconscious is making the shot.
> You really think an archer can hold the site pin perfectly on the x, or instinctive shooting is really instinctive?
> Your subconscious makes the calculations without you even knowing, your subconscious uses the experienced gained through practice and repetition. The physical ability is the part were in some, the body responds better to the subconscious messages. Some people are obviously physically superior than others, but i believe it's less of an impact in archery.


More correct is we know the shot is going to take place, just not to the very instant. 

Physical ability/strength has everything to do with archery. Fact, the easier it is to handle the bow the easier it is for mind to do what it has to do. What's easier, shooting 1 arrow every so many minutes (like in 3D) or shooting 5 arrows in 4 minutes?


----------



## SonnyThomas

AngelRa said:


> Living with an elite "TEAM USA" archer in the house made me realize that elite archers are about 80% born ability and 20% practice and knowledge.


I'll agree. Some excel with so little effort whether physical or mental.


----------



## erdman41

AngelRa said:


> elite archers are about 80% born ability and 20% practice and knowledge.


Pretty rediculous comment. Actually fairly insulting to elite archers.


----------



## RJR

Sonny, you know the shot is going to take place before you draw the bow. you won't know the instant because the decision to release the arrow is made by the subconscious.
You don't draw the bow and say to yourself, ready, set, release, you look at the site pin or target and start your alignment. Once the alignment is complete by the conscious the subconscious releases the arrow.
Some people release the arrow before the conscious alignment is complete (target panic)

you're convoluting two different elements. Including strength in the discussion isn't valid, anyone can improve their strength (being able to draw and hold a bow for 4 hours means little)
When you get to the Elite level everyone has a different degree of talent and natural ability or (motor coordination and intelligence) 
I believe that the aspect in our (motor coordination and intelligence) is what makes an archer Elite, this comes from their subconscious.

In relation to archery, natural ability and subconsious control of the shot are probably the same.

Joe





SonnyThomas said:


> More correct is we know the shot is going to take place, just not to the very instant.
> 
> Physical ability/strength has everything to do with archery. Fact, the easier it is to handle the bow the easier it is for mind to do what it has to do. What's easier, shooting 1 arrow every so many minutes (like in 3D) or shooting 5 arrows in 4 minutes?


----------



## Jarhead88

erdman41 said:


> Pretty rediculous comment. Actually fairly insulting to elite archers.


agree... to some point. you have to have some sort of athletic ability or coordination to do anything. so there will be some people limited to how good they can get. I see that in golf. BUT>>> everyone will become better with practice, EVERYONE!!! I have golfers that are not as talented but improve through instruction and practice.... everyone can practice and improve!!! at anything.! if the drive and will is there you will find a way...

I see it in golf ALL the time...


----------



## bgbls

Create a task that you can really excel at. Repeat until you have total CONFIDENCE . This will make your brain very happy. So in jarheads golf world practice 6 inch putts you probably never miss makes your brain happy no failure. George Ryals says start at 3 feet and work your way back. He also says blind bale alot. Reo Wilde I bet if he makes a 9 in a tournment is back home shooting inside out x at 3 feet. I also believe there are two causes of failing if you were given the proper instruction. Not putting in the effort of practicing enough or stage fright. If it is stage fright you have nothing to be ashamed of because you did your best.


----------



## SonnyThomas

RJR said:


> Sonny, you know the shot is going to take place before you draw the bow. you won't know the instant because the decision to release the arrow is made by the subconscious.
> You don't draw the bow and say to yourself, ready, set, release, you look at the site pin or target and start your alignment. Once the alignment is complete by the conscious the subconscious releases the arrow.
> Some people release the arrow before the conscious alignment is complete (target panic)
> 
> you're convoluting two different elements. Including strength in the discussion isn't valid, anyone can improve their strength (being able to draw and hold a bow for 4 hours means little)
> When you get to the Elite level everyone has a different degree of talent and natural ability or (motor coordination and intelligence)
> I believe that the aspect in our (motor coordination and intelligence) is what makes an archer Elite, this comes from their subconscious.
> 
> In relation to archery, natural ability and subconsious control of the shot are probably the same.
> 
> Joe


Well, I have to disagree. You make the decision, let the subconscious run, to fire the release when on target, not drawing or anchoring (the thought process is in motion). Yes, executing comes something of automatic due all falling in place like you practiced.
In I/A we wrung dry this subconscious stuff long ago. 

Not every one can improve their strength (age or injury) nor is it wise to improve your strength. We can help our strength through using proper draw weight. Is a decent exercise program beneficial? Yes, but more to maintain health and strength, not gain strength.


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## dmacey

RJR said:


> All your efforts are designed to trick yourself;


That's actually quite right, and in fact, that's the goal - to remove the decision-making requirement on executing the _actual_ point of release from the mind (conscious or subconscious). And yes, it was totally weird to me when I was first introduced to the idea of an unanticipated release too. I was also taught that you had to learn to be able to multitask aiming and executing the release on-command. But it turns out that only a very few archers are really able to do this and still shoot at an elite level, especially on the compound bow shot with sights, etc. Tim Gillingham is one of those few, but he's definitely a freak of nature in terms of just sheer ability. 

On the recurve, we rely on the clicker to accomplish the same thing, though there's the additional skill of releasing when we hear the click and some other mild differences in terms of the overall shot cycle. But the idea is basically the same: the archer doesn't command the final release of the string, the clicker does. 

But otherwise, yes you're quite right that it's a kind of a trick. It's mediated by a reliance on technology to solve a problem concerning limitations in our brain power. Strange but true.



> There is no surprise shot; your subconscious is making the shot.
> You really think an archer can hold the site pin perfectly on the x, or instinctive shooting is really instinctive?
> Your subconscious makes the calculations without you even knowing, your subconscious uses the experienced gained through practice and repetition. The physical ability is the part were in some, the body responds better to the subconscious messages. Some people are obviously physically superior than others, but i believe it's less of an impact in archery.


In situations where you do have to command-shoot, that's true - I'm thinking barebow instinctive shooting. But it's not the case on the compound bow with a release aid. 99.745% of us there actually do train for an unanticipated release with the assistance of technology. The exact timing of the release itself is hidden from the archer and that's actually on purpose. Again, strange but true...

DM


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## dmacey

AngelRa said:


> Living with an elite "TEAM USA" archer in the house made me realize that elite archers are about 80% born ability and 20% practice and knowledge.


Actually, I'd say 100% born ability and 100% practice and knowledge lol.

DM


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## AngelRa

dmacey said:


> Actually, I'd say 100% born ability and 100% practice and knowledge lol.
> 
> DM


200%?


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## dmacey

AngelRa said:


> 200%?


At least... one of the top female shooters in the country shoots in my local league; I shot on the line next to her 2 weeks ago and it looked to me like there was a supernatural force guiding her arrows into the X over and over. So even 200% is probably still a low estimate, they just make it look so easy. Then I get up there, huffing and puffing just to get it into the gold and that just makes me realize how amazing these shooters are... 

The elites are just truly out of this world lol....

DM


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## Trykon Mike

I agree 100%


EPLC said:


> The more I work on and think about the various components of my game the more I believe alignment is one of the most important aspects of shooting well. My shoulder injury, combined with the necessity of shooting lower poundage's has really brought this to the forefront. Alignment is a funny thing and it's not enough to obtain "picture perfect" alignment... as demonstrated by many of the more successful archers. IMO, proper alignment is the one that allows me to pull through the shot without pulling my sight from the target. For me this has always been an elusive thing to master. If the alignment isn't there the sight will move away from the intended target causing a stop and go to make corrections process. It's easy to say, "just pull through the shot", but when your sight is being pulled off target this becomes very difficult.


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## RJR

Great discussion Sonny! if we all agreed life would be boring.

Joe




SonnyThomas said:


> Well, I have to disagree. You make the decision, let the subconscious run, to fire the release when on target, not drawing or anchoring (the thought process is in motion). Yes, executing comes something of automatic due all falling in place like you practiced.
> In I/A we wrung dry this subconscious stuff long ago.
> 
> Not every one can improve their strength (age or injury) nor is it wise to improve your strength. We can help our strength through using proper draw weight. Is a decent exercise program beneficial? Yes, but more to maintain health and strength, not gain strength.


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## Jarhead88

bgbls said:


> Create a task that you can really excel at. Repeat until you have total CONFIDENCE . This will make your brain very happy. So in jarheads golf world practice 6 inch putts you probably never miss makes your brain happy no failure. George Ryals says start at 3 feet and work your way back. He also says blind bale alot. Reo Wilde I bet if he makes a 9 in a tournment is back home shooting inside out x at 3 feet. I also believe there are two causes of failing if you were given the proper instruction. Not putting in the effort of practicing enough or stage fright. If it is stage fright you have nothing to be ashamed of because you did your best.


totally agree...... people are afraid of stage fright...not performing. it happens to everyone... nothing to be afraid of.... EVERYONE WILL LOSE MORE THEN YOU WILL WIN, IT'S HOW YOU BOUNCE BACK AND LEARN FROM IT.

*It's more courageous to try and fail!!!! then it is to never try because you are AFRAID of failing...!!!*


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## Garceau

Confidence


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## EPLC

Garceau said:


> Confidence


Me thinks you may have the cart before the horse... Doesn't confidence come from shooting good?


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## Garceau

EPLC said:


> Me thinks you may have the cart before the horse... Doesn't confidence come from shooting good?


Confidence in the shot process in your preparation etc have zero to do with a score. 

But it's just my opinion


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## jim p

There are 6 billion + people on earth and only one can be world champion each year. The odds of winning powerball are better.

We just saw a Vegas shoot down where the lucky dog won. But if you want to you can be a world champion even if you don't have any God given talent. All you have to do is work hard. I and a lot of others must be bums and just not willing to work that hard.


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## SonnyThomas

EPLC said:


> Me thinks you may have the cart before the horse... Doesn't confidence come from shooting good?


Yes I does. No confidence, know you can't win, what's the sense of even competing? Yeah, new, butterflies, nerves needs addressed, but confidence is a clincher....




jim p said:


> There are 6 billion + people on earth and only one can be world champion each year. The odds of winning powerball are better.
> 
> We just saw a Vegas shoot down where the lucky dog won. But if you want to you can be a world champion even if you don't have any God given talent. All you have to do is work hard. I and a lot of others must be bums and just not willing to work that hard.


Jim, that Lucky Dog, Sergio, is no slouch.

The only bums in archery I know of are those who are slop azz hunters. Yeah, I've friend that is a heart breaker when it comes to deer hunting. He's wounded so many deer that it's appalling. Target, yes, many of us can be better than we are, but many just don't have it in them to be World Champions. Remove attitude and you still have; Physical limitations. Money for coaches, equipment, and travel. Time. Family.

And then attitude, where do you draw the line? Say you're damn good, better than good. If you don't want to compete on the next higher level, does that make you a bum?

Of the United States, at least 60,000 and maybe 70,000 members of the big archery organizations. Over 2000 show up at Vegas, but these people were from around the world. 

Numbers... I think someone goofed up. Years back there were 3 1/2 million said archers in the United States. Just recently there was said now 23,000,000. Nope, don't believe it one bit. World wide, yes, I could believe that.

NFAA - some where around 16,000 members. More, maybe.
Maybe tied or the ASA leading a bit. ASA and IBO have about 8,000 member each. ASA said to still be growing.


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## jim p

I don't think that someone is a bum because they are not a world champion. I just wanted to point out that some of the thinking that all you have to do is work hard enough and you to can be a world champion is flawed thinking.

At some point you have to be realistic. I am thankful for my abilities and celebrate them. I don't walk around in misery just because all my arrows don't hit the center.

I hope that everyone that wants to win a major tournament gets to experience the pleasure.

I have heard that there are 10,000 doctors and lawyers to every professional athlete. So if you want to play the odds do you want to strive to be a doctor or lawyer or do you want to spend your time trying to develop the skill to play a sport. It seems that our schools that glorify sports are really steering the young guys in the wrong direction.


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## montigre

jim p said:


> I don't think that someone is a bum because they are not a world champion. I just wanted to point out that some of the thinking that all you have to do is work hard enough and you to can be a world champion is flawed thinking.


Then why use the term "bum" in your post?? Also, how far up the ladder a person is able to reach does corespond directly to the amount of time and effort they put into realizing that goal. If you go about it half-azed, then that is the result you will get, if you put your body and soul into it, then the possibilities are governed only by your own desire. 

As a substantiating anecdote, in another life, I won 2 World Championships and one Reserve with my show mare that I broke, self-trained, and paid a whopping $2,500.00 for in the face of everyone I knew with their $50,000-$100,000 show horses stating it was not possible. We worked hard, we trained hard, and we were ultimately rewarded for our efforts. The only goals in my near 60 years of life that I have not achieved are those I really did not desire to put the effort into...

Before you start dashing the potential dreams of others, please tell us how many times you have won...

"Argue for your limitations, and sure enough they're yours." ~Richard Bach


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## jim p

I used the word bum to get more attention than the word slacker. It probably worked.

I think that hard work will get you to your highest level. I just don't think that everyone's highest level is good enough to be a world champion. Maybe I am wrong.


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## jim p

Since you asked. I have not won anything worth mentioning.

I hope that I have not hurt your feelings. For all I know you have won many archery championships.

I will never advise someone to quit their job like Reo and take up a bow to make a living. I am not saying that it can't be done but it will to a tough road for most. There can only be one winner.


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## cbrunson

jim p said:


> There can only be one winner.


I was actually pleasantly surprised to see the change of personnel at the shoot off in Vegas this year. Not to degrade the talents of the usual top finishers, but to celebrate the hard work and showmanship of those who made it through a very tough competition and came out on top. It seems there is always hope for those not among what some may consider the best of the best.

You certainly will never win if you don't believe you can.


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## jim p

I agree.


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## dmacey

Yep, and for me George Ryals was the biggest inspiration. He didn't let Sergio Pangi go without a fight and ended up 5th overall (I believe? haven't checked the final scores yet). He has other careers now with the ALC and all kinds of coaching and other activities besides shooting, but he's still among the best of the best. Sergio Pangi ain't no slouch either and that shootdown with him and GRIV was my favorite of the whole tournament...

DM


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## Lazarus

jim p said:


> I will never advise someone to quit their job like Reo and take up a bow to make a living. I am not saying that it can't be done but it will to a tough road for most. There can only be one winner.



There are tons more than just Reo now days that are making a living by taking up a bow. Thank God for those who believe in what _can_ be done instead of focusing on how hard it might be. For me, leaving my family 5-7 days a week to go to a job I might hate is a lot tougher road than trying to make a living in the industry, only a very small part of which might be shooting. 

I know thinking "possibilities" gets me in trouble on this forum because it's outside of the archery "status quo." So be it. :wink:

Bringing it back around to the topic. Making a living in archery and shooting good take a much broader set of skills than just shooting good. :cheers:


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## SonnyThomas

http://api.viglink.com/api/click?fo...tp://www.ianseo.net/TourData/2016/1277/IC.php

Griv fell to 6th, but man he is something else...

Look at the 899 and 898 that followed... Wow!


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## SonnyThomas

Lazarus said:


> There are tons more than just Reo now days that are making a living by taking up a bow. Thank God for those who believe in what _can_ be done instead of focusing on how hard it might be. For me, leaving my family 5-7 days a week to go to a job I might hate is a lot tougher road than trying to make a living in the industry, only a very small part of which might be shooting.
> 
> I know thinking "possibilities" gets me in trouble on this forum because it's outside of the archery "status quo." So be it. :wink:
> 
> Bringing it back around to the topic. Making a living in archery and shooting good take a much broader set of skills than just shooting good. :cheers:


Rang a bell. Way back when, 2003. Chance had won at Vegas (too young to legally drink) and his father asked what he wanted to do. Chance's reply was to be a Professional archer. His dad said he'd support him. Chance won Vegas again in 2004. Well, I don't think his dad had to shell out any money  as for support. 2005? Right out of (maybe) under Hoyt's nose wise ole Pete Shepley picked up Chance. Chance won later again won Vegas with PSE. And he ain't all that shabby when it comes to 3D. Okay, he's one of very, very few that started out shooting for a living.


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## jim p

As far as skill needed, my thinking is the ability to be still is the key. If you can be still like a hooter shooter you will be hard to beat.


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## AngelRa

jim p said:


> As far as skill needed, my thinking is the ability to be still is the key. If you can be still like a hooter shooter you will be hard to beat.


Absolute stillness is the wrong approach. Think like running bicycle, what is more stable, moving or stationary? Almost nobody can stay in a bike that is not moving. Same here, to aim steadily you need something moving, typically the back elbow is slowly riding.


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## jim p

Thanks. I had never heard anyone say anything about the back elbow moving. I will have to give this a try.


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