# Limb length



## Fury90flier (Jun 27, 2012)

in target archery, the only thing we're interested in as far as performance goes is getting the arrow to the target- that's it...speed isn't something we care about.

So, if it appears the bow is too long...who cares if they're smacking the bull.


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## c365 (May 15, 2013)

Bigjono said:


> I am curious though, some of the women on there look fairly small but still appear to be using long limbs on 25" risers. Is this the case and if so, are they not giving up performance?


I'm sure if their world class coaches thought that, It would have been changed decades ago.


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## Bigjono (Apr 21, 2009)

I agree but am I correct then, they do mostly use long limbs?


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## RickBac (Sep 18, 2011)

I think you will find they have a couple of choices in the recurve bag. It is hard to tell what limbs the are using unless several bows are set next to each other. A slight sized archer may look like they have long limbs in a video but in actuality they may have shorts or mediums.

As said before, it is what that particular archer shoots well with.


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## wfocharlie (Feb 16, 2013)

Bigjono said:


> I've been watching a fair bit of archery TV lately, really getting into the Olympic style WA events. I am curious though, some of the women on there look fairly small but still appear to be using long limbs on 25" risers. Is this the case and if so, are they not giving up performance?


I have wondered about this myself. Many women and shorter men at top level events seem to have bows that are as tall or taller than the archer. This goes against what I have heard as the general rule for bow dimensions. For instance I am 71" tall(29"DL) but my 25"/long limb bow has an actual length of 66". Much shorter than me. Just kind of makes you wonder if there is a reason they are shooting these longer bows.


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## zal (May 1, 2007)

Koreans and a lot of other asian countries with Korean coaching influence use noticeably longer bows than most western countries.

A top Korean coach said few years back something along the lines of: "there's no need to use shorter bows to get more speed with modern limbs and longer bows aim better" when asked at a coaching seminar. The fact that they use quite strict guidelines that filter down from their annual coaches meetings means that changes happen more rapidly and more noticeably in there.


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## John_K (Oct 30, 2011)

All other things being equal, there's only about 2fps difference between different length bows. It's better to get a bow that gives you a good string angle.


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## Bigjono (Apr 21, 2009)

I've got a 27" draw and always use medium limbs but tried some longs and really noticed the added smoothness. If I only sacrifice 2fps I could live with that.


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## wfocharlie (Feb 16, 2013)

zal said:


> Koreans and a lot of other asian countries with Korean coaching influence use noticeably longer bows than most western countries.
> 
> A top Korean coach said few years back something along the lines of: "there's no need to use shorter bows to get more speed with modern limbs and longer bows aim better" when asked at a coaching seminar. The fact that they use quite strict guidelines that filter down from their annual coaches meetings means that changes happen more rapidly and more noticeably in there.


Interesting. Most Asians have shorter noses than westerners so maybe the longer bows are for the string angle to touch the nose hence the "aim better" comment.


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## Borderbows (Apr 4, 2009)

they could still get longer risers to achieve the better string angles. and still get better cast from the shorter limb...

its either that or something only the limb maker knows...

longer limbs for the same cross sectional area deliver less poundage.

so more cross sectional area comes in the way of limb depth. (core thickness) meaning more Torsional stability...

love a bit of speculation....

may be its a fashion...
its the archer that scores the points and not the bow right?


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## Vittorio (Jul 17, 2003)

Not sure about Korean women using 25" risers only... Some at WC in Turkey last year were using 23" risers. String angle to face, nose , breast and finges should dominate the choice about bow lenght, draw lenght comes last.


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## John_K (Oct 30, 2011)

Bigjono said:


> I've got a 27" draw and always use medium limbs but tried some longs and really noticed the added smoothness. If I only sacrifice 2fps I could live with that.


I should back that up 

It's what Dave Kronengold, formerly of PSE, told me he'd found in his experiments with bow lengths. This was using conventional recurve limbs.


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## Stone Bridge (May 20, 2013)

I read the Koreans only used equipment choices that gave the best scores in practice and tournaments with little attention paid to arrow speed. Long bows are easier to shoot it would seem, even for short draw lengths.

We, as consumers, are overly misguided by pure arrow speed because it's the only thing a manufacturer can actually show us via the chronograph. Speed sells because the manufacturer cannot show up improved scores. He can only show speed. So we buy what we can see, forgetting entirely that scoring well is about finding a limb that suits you more than anything else. Speed being about the last consideration if you test lots of limbs for score.


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## Stone Bridge (May 20, 2013)

Further thought on limbs and why we buy fast limbs as advertised:

It's damned expensive to buy a dozen sets of limbs to see what works for us so we tend toward known brands that promise the most speed. I'm just as guilty. But over the years I've come to see that fast limbs are no more likely to make good scores, or groups, than moderately fast or even average speed limbs. My favorite limb for making good groups at any distance is the SF Elite Plus. This is a mid-priced foam limb that simple shoots very well and is impossible to tune badly. It's stupid-proof it seems. Any tiller setting and any brace height yields nice round groups as tight as I can shoot. Have not shot a better, more forgiving limb yet. Not very fast, but fast enough, and it shoots really great and gives me confidence. It's also very quiet for some reason if that matters to you. Not a sexy limb and not expensive at about 400 bucks. Would rather have this limb than any other limb I've ever tried including the Border series and the Uukha.


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## theminoritydude (Feb 11, 2013)

Could someone please show us a picture of a female Korean world class archer using a pair of non-Korean make limbs?


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## theminoritydude (Feb 11, 2013)

Would you believe me if I told you, many Korean teams found it difficult to stop the vibrations of a 66" (25" riser + short limbs) bow, hence they use 68", or longer?


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## Bigjono (Apr 21, 2009)

From what I see in the target world, the variance on equipment from top Oly shooters to top national shooters and good quality state/provincial shooters is very small. Good shooters have learned what style of equipment yields good scores, those looking for that magic bullet tend to play with the other stuff in an attempt to catch up rather than focus on their own form.


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## Stone Bridge (May 20, 2013)

I've noticed top shooters all like to try different things. They just don't excuse a bad performance on their gear. They know it's a skill and nerve control game in the end.


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## Bigjono (Apr 21, 2009)

Stone Bridge said:


> I've noticed top shooters all like to try different things. They just don't excuse a bad performance on their gear. They know it's a skill and nerve control game in the end.


But there are only about 4 or so makes of equipment that you see in huge numbers so guys know what to trust I think.


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## Stone Bridge (May 20, 2013)

Bigjono, you are correct about limited makers. But ever notice you never, ever, see anyone in Big League competition shooting a bow under 66"? I've never seen it. All shoot bows of 68 or 70 inches. Lately, last five years, I see more 70" bows than any other length shot by men of average draw lengths. My draw is the same as yours, 27". The only reason I don't shoot 70 inch bows is because I only own medium limbs. I've always shot 68" recurves. Next time I buy some limbs, I think I'll try some longs on a 25" riser. I've shot others' bows of this length and liked the shallower string angle on the fingers. Not enough to run out for some longs, but maybe next time. 

I've always noticed small women shooting what looked like very long recurve bows at the Olympics and on Youtube at various target events. I have to think it's the grouping ability of the longer bow. Even if it's only a few points an event, it's worth it I should think.


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## Borderbows (Apr 4, 2009)

Stone bridge.... you sound very much like stringwalker jack from TT. From florida. Into paddle sports likes 400 dollar elite plus limbs. And dislikes Uukha and Border. I hope you also dont have a missunderstood sense of humour....


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## Stone Bridge (May 20, 2013)

Borderbows said:


> Stone bridge.... you sound very much like stringwalker jack from TT. From florida. Into paddle sports likes 400 dollar elite plus limbs. And dislikes Uukha and Border. I hope you also dont have a missunderstood sense of humour....


Life is all about humor. I happen to like your product and have shot many of your limbs. They just don't fit me. One thing I will say about your stuff. I don't think there is a faster or better finished limb on the market. Once the Koreans start using them, or copying them in a long length, I'll maybe give them another look. Sorry, I tend toward established limb forms that have been time proven at the top levels. If you get there and dominate like WW or Samick or Hoyt, I'll rethink my choices. 

You can't sell everyone. The sooner you learn that, the happier you'll be.


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## Borderbows (Apr 4, 2009)

Stone Bridge said:


> Life is all about humor. I happen to like your product and have shot many of your limbs. They just don't fit me. One thing I will say about your stuff. I don't think there is a faster or better finished limb on the market. Once the Koreans start using them, or copying them in a long length, I'll maybe give them another look. Sorry, I tend toward established limb forms that have been time proven at the top levels. If you get there and dominate like WW or Samick or Hoyt, I'll rethink my choices.
> 
> You can't sell everyone. The sooner you learn that, the happier you'll be.



thought so!


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## chrstphr (Nov 23, 2005)

theminoritydude said:


> Could someone please show us a picture of a female Korean world class archer using a pair of non-Korean make limbs?


not going to happen. For one, WINWIN has a lock on the Korean national teams for the most part. They will shoot other brands like MK and Samick at local shoots, but the money sponsorship talks and they dont rock the boat. If its International, its Win Win. 

Its honestly amazing to see them shoot a GMX or MK X10 riser. That speaks volumes about the gear trumping the cash. 

The two Hoyt shooters Oh and Im, are paid plenty by Hoyt to shoot those formula bows. And they are the exception. 

Chris


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## Stone Bridge (May 20, 2013)

Sid, will it make you happier to learn I don't care for Samick wood-core limbs? I don't like the feel - too stiff and harsh on release. Your limbs are too soft for me at hold. Very smooth but too soft at the clicker. Samick is too stiff and Border too soft. Win Win is my favorite limb. We all have our favorites. Sorry you can't understand that.


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## Demmer (Dec 1, 2012)

Borderbows said:


> Stone bridge.... you sound very much like stringwalker jack from TT. From florida. Into paddle sports likes 400 dollar elite plus limbs. And dislikes Uukha and Border. I hope you also dont have a missunderstood sense of humour....


Totally unsure what this has to do with the thread...
not that this coment needs an answer..


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## Borderbows (Apr 4, 2009)

I was asking the guy who he was.... helps build a understanding of his position hes talking... we all know stringwalker jack from Tradtalk. But thanks for quoting me from another forum. Word for word.


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## theminoritydude (Feb 11, 2013)

The Rock, has something to say, but he sent the wrong guy to say it.


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## Stone Bridge (May 20, 2013)

Sid, is every archer who doesn't like or choose to use your product wrong or incapable of making choices that are correct for them? I understand pride in your product - I made wooden sailboats for many years and think they were about as good as a wooden boat could be. But even I always understood others had different and many times better ideas about construction than I did. It didn't keep me up at night or glued to sailing forums downplaying fiberglass hulls or some of the great New England wooden boat builders. Why would I do that?

But you are a strange cat. Nothing is better than a Border. Nobody knows more about limbs than you. Somebody comes on the forum and fails to kiss your ring and the way you behave is absolutely fasinating to me and many others. You make an interesting and fast limb. Lots of people love them but that's not enough for you. All the rest of the archery world is wrong but Sid at Border Archery. You must live a life of perpetual frustration, what with guys like me around silly enough to say we like Hoyt or Korean limbs. 

Sid, I once had a man at a Miami boat show try to suck up to me in a group of fellow sailors by saying very loudly he'd rather be in a wooden boat in heavy water over any other hull type. He said a wooden hull flexed and absorbed waves better. Was less likely to come apart - was safer. He was buttering me.

I had to tell him, in front of his pals, and with no regard for my own product, that a wooden hull was the last thing I'd want to be trapped in if it really got exciting. An old myth he didn't underdtand. Good glass hulls are much stronger than any wooden boat.

My whole point being a guy who makes things for a living can take the pride element too far. To the point you make yourself the butt of jokes and derision. Few will say such things to your face, but you should be aware of it. You make a nice limb, but a very poor public face for your company.


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## Borderbows (Apr 4, 2009)

i'll leave you with your assumptions.
Im a strange cat as you put it, strange maybe because im not what *you* expect me to be.

So with your coments of me being strange, then i'll assume the rest of your post is just aspersion on me based on your assumptions.

enjoy the rest of your day...

My appologies to the OP for the sideline on this thread. (my fault)


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## Bigjono (Apr 21, 2009)

Demmer said:


> Totally unsure what this has to do with the thread...
> not that this coment needs an answer..


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## Stone Bridge (May 20, 2013)

Sid, just a thought: Your operation is not too big but you do turn out a lot of limbs. Probably you will grow and get bigger in coming years. 

I was a one-man operation aside from a young man I always had as an assistant. I never had to advertise because I made one boat every 18 months and then took 6 months off. So one boat per 2 years. All my boats were built on speculation. I didn't take orders. When I had a hull finished, I put it up for sale. First guy in got the boat. People within the yachting industry knew who I was and when I had a boat due. It was easier that way for me.

But you have to sell lots of different limb designs and bits. What I'd do if I was you, is hire a really personable lad capable of handling the public with aplomb and humor. Self-deprecation goes a long way towards charming customers. Willingness to concede a point even if you don't agree goes a long way toward making happy potential customers. Lose the ego in the face of customers. We all have pride, but don't let it ruin a sale or your company's image. Folks buying stuff with hard-earned cash don't want to deal with unyielding salesmen. They want to be amused, charmed and appreciated. Then they'll hunt you down to give you their money even if your product is only average. Not saying your stuff is average, I happen to think it's very nice, but not for me. 

Having a front-man, a flack-catcher out there dealing with people who is charming and disarming is one mighty weapon for any company selling anything. You don't understand this and probably you don't care. I don't think you're stupid. But I do think you are completely lacking in the fundamentals basic salesmanship. 

Probably the best attribute you can point to with regards to your limbs and bows is the fact you're still in business and doing okay in spite of you being so publicly bullying of customers and non-believers of your ideas. That alone says your product is pretty good. You succeed in spite of yourself.


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## theminoritydude (Feb 11, 2013)

Stone Bridge said:


> I don't think there is a faster or better finished limb on the market. Once the Koreans start using them, or copying them in a long length, I'll maybe give them another look.


I can think of an F word to say.

"Flattery".


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## theminoritydude (Feb 11, 2013)

Well since I've stumbled onto this thread I might as well leave an opinion: I think all but one of you here may be wrong about what limb lengths to use.

That's right, I just said it.


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## Bigjono (Apr 21, 2009)

Can we keep this about limb length no brands guys but to follow up from an earlier post, deep hook curves have been around for years now and the majors aren't really going far down that road for whatever reason so it's good the little guys are, it gives choice.


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## Borderbows (Apr 4, 2009)

chrstphr said:


> not going to happen. For one, WINWIN has a lock on the Korean national teams for the most part. They will shoot other brands like MK and Samick at local shoots, but the money sponsorship talks and they dont rock the boat. If its International, its Win Win.
> 
> Its honestly amazing to see them shoot a GMX or MK X10 riser. That speaks volumes about the gear trumping the cash.
> 
> ...





Bigjono said:


> Can we keep this about limb length no brands guys but to follow up from an earlier post, deep hook curves have been around for years now and the majors aren't really going far down that road for whatever reason so it's good the little guys are, it gives choice.


and there is some of your reason why...
owning the sport is a comfortable place to be 

so. in keeping the thread to limb lengths you went onto your hobby horse of deep hook recurves... LOL


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## theminoritydude (Feb 11, 2013)

I liken recurve limbs to torque springs. Actually I have always suspected that most recurve limbs on the scene are just inevitable copies of the original recurve limb, although the word "original" here is quite a misnomer, like trying to find the original animal that carried the HIV.

I do think that the modern recurve design evolved from earlier attempts to make arrows shoot further (think Mongolians), in a time where scientific methods were pretty much non existent. Folks tested all sorts of shapes and luck would have it, some guy with a backward bent bow managed to launch an arrow far enough for the whole tribe to copy. Why it shoot that well, wasn't important. In fact I think most folks these days have absolutely no idea why as well.

It is with the above that I believe that the recurve is a very much under-exploited piece of technology.


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## Borderbows (Apr 4, 2009)

theminoritydude said:


> I liken recurve limbs to torque springs. Actually I have always suspected that most recurve limbs on the scene are just inevitable copies of the original recurve limb, although the word "original" here is quite a misnomer, like trying to find the original animal that carried the HIV.
> 
> I do think that the modern recurve design evolved from earlier attempts to make arrows shoot further (think Mongolians), in a time where scientific methods were pretty much non existent. Folks tested all sorts of shapes and luck would have it, some guy with a backward bent bow managed to launch an arrow far enough for the whole tribe to copy. Why it shoot that well, wasn't important. In fact I think most folks these days have absolutely no idea why as well.
> 
> It is with the above that I believe that the recurve is a very much under-exploited piece of technology.



from the little that i know, the original North American Natives had longbows. The introduction of the horse. meant the longbow was too long for shooting off a horse back so shorter limbs on shorter bows were required. this lead to reflex deflex. which lead to string contact... which lead to sinue backed bows to take the curvature.

that's my understanding.

but modern materials change the game a little.


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## Bigjono (Apr 21, 2009)

Borderbows said:


> and there is some of your reason why...
> owning the sport is a comfortable place to be
> 
> so. in keeping the thread to limb lengths you went onto your hobby horse of deep hook recurves... LOL[/
> ...


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## Borderbows (Apr 4, 2009)

Bigjono said:


> Borderbows said:
> 
> 
> > and there is some of your reason why...
> ...


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## Stone Bridge (May 20, 2013)

Borderbows said:


> Bigjono said:
> 
> 
> > Im well aware other companies make deep hook recurves.
> ...


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## Borderbows (Apr 4, 2009)

Stone Bridge said:


> Borderbows said:
> 
> 
> > you could employ twice as many people for the demand you would have. That's it, Sid, continue to argue with the public, the potential customer base. Let others thinking of buying your limbs see who they have to suck-up to. Let them know how fussy and sensitive you are, how boorish. Then wonder why they go off and buy Win Win or Uukha. If you had a nice front man representing Border Archery,
> ...


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## Bigjono (Apr 21, 2009)

Do many guys use XS limbs in target events though? I can see long limbs in a 27" riser being very smooth and maybe XS on a 27" being faster but less smooth.


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## Borderbows (Apr 4, 2009)

Bigjono said:


> Do many guys use XS limbs in target events though? I can see long limbs in a 27" riser being very smooth and maybe XS on a 27" being faster but less smooth.


are they many folks with sub 27" draw lengths into target archery?
what about XS on a 25" riser rather than shorts on a 23" that way the short draw length, (low energy) gets a longer sight window to reach all the distances in the sight window better on the 25" riser

how about mediums on a 27" riser to get to 30" draws from a 70" bow...

there are some newer "combows" you don't see many off. why are 27" mainly shot by long draw archers... or at least the idea picked up quickest by long draw archers.


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## Stone Bridge (May 20, 2013)

Most Korean ladies draw at, or under 27". Most shoot long limbs. They only look at the scores because the Korean ladies only care about winning and not how fast their bows shoot. They are funny that way. Silly girls.


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## Borderbows (Apr 4, 2009)

if that's the case. and long limbs rock. why no extra long limbs?


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## Stone Bridge (May 20, 2013)

Borderbows said:


> if that's the case. and long limbs rock. why no extra long limbs?


For truly long-armed shooters we have x-longs. I thought you made an x-long? Or are you just being fussy and boorish again? Sid, you do yourself no favors arguing and acting a fool for your market place. I can be a fool and it doesn't impact the livelihood of others' working for me. But you go out and put at risk the reputation of your company and the folks it employs every time you open your mouth online. I've got an excuse for being a goofball online, I'm retired and easily bored. You have no excuse, you're just rattlesnake nasty and it shows. God, what a goldmine Border would be without you as its mouthpiece.


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## Borderbows (Apr 4, 2009)

Stone Bridge said:


> For truly long-armed shooters we have x-longs. I thought you made an x-long? Or are you just being fussy and boorish again? Sid, you do yourself no favors arguing and acting a fool for your market place. I can be a fool and it doesn't impact the livelihood of others' working for me. But you go out and put at risk the reputation of your company and the folks it employs every time you open your mouth online. I've got an excuse for being a goofball online, I'm retired and easily bored. You have no excuse, you're just rattlesnake nasty and it shows. God, what a goldmine Border would be without you as its mouthpiece.


oh. sorry i didn't know you didn't have an answer....

if the short draw archers are "silly girls" because they don't conform to the norms and know better at what scores best for them. and that's because they shoot long limbs. they have some secrete sauce.
why have their kit suppliers not made XL limbs for them...
from your logic its something that should have/must have been explored?

hate to be a pain... keep dishing your venom! its looking pretty from here :-D


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## Stone Bridge (May 20, 2013)

Sid, I just read your last effort with the language. A little convoluted and awkward, lots of misspellings. Try some capitalization and better punctuation, too. It really is hard to read but I think I understand. I'm good at translating gibberish. 

The Korean lady shooters are not concerned with selling limbs. They are only concerned with hitting the middle of the colored target and making the most points. So they use the equipment their coaches have determined, by testing, that results in the highest number after shooting at the pretty colored target. They keep it simple. Probably this is what confuses you, but I'm only guessing.

After many years of tallying scores, those "silly girls" learn that using long limbs on a standard 25" riser is a very good way to make a big number on the concentric-ring rainbow target they shoot at. Call it a 70" bow. Not all shoot a 70, but most do. Some go shorter, but not by much. I seriously doubt any Korean lady has a draw length of 30 inches. Maybe one has in history, but not many. This is very easy to understand for most, this business of using a longish bow for target shooting. I would have thought an expert like you would know this. Try following international trends on the podium when wondering what equipment works best. Border (for a niche maker) is holding it's own with the best limbs, but it's not dominating, not at all. No Olympic medals and no huge following, either. When the ladies from Korea trot out their version of your limbs in a long, I'll start paying attention to you more closely. Until then, you're just a hobby of mine. I have lots of hobbies.


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## Borderbows (Apr 4, 2009)

Stone Bridge said:


> Sid, I just read your last effort with the language. A little convoluted and awkward, lots of misspellings. Try some capitalization and better punctuation, too. It really is hard to read but I think I understand. I'm good at translating gibberish.
> 
> The Korean lady shooters are not concerned with selling limbs. They are only concerned with hitting the middle of the colored target and making the most points. So they use the equipment their coaches have determined, by testing, that results in the highest number after shooting at the pretty colored target. They keep it simple. Probably this is what confuses you, but I'm only guessing.
> 
> After many years of tallying scores, those "silly girls" learn that using long limbs on a standard 25" riser is a very good way to make a big number on the concentric-ring rainbow target they shoot at. Call it a 70" bow. Not all shoot a 70, but most do. Some go shorter, but not by much. I seriously doubt any Korean lady has a draw length of 30 inches. Maybe one has in history, but not many. This is very easy to understand for most, this business of using a longish bow for target shooting. I would have thought an expert like you would know this. Try following international trends on the podium when wondering what equipment works best. Border (for a niche maker) is holding it's own with the best limbs, but it's not dominating, not at all. No Olympic medals and no huge following, either. When the ladies from Korea trot out their version of your limbs in a long, I'll start paying attention to you more closely. Until then, you're just a hobby of mine. I have lots of hobbies.


Thats why i remember you.... you never let facts get in the way of a good story.
So is this long bow high score thing a gender specific thing... or is it just korean ladies and long limbs that is the magic combo.


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## Stone Bridge (May 20, 2013)

Hey, at least you cleaned up your English paper, Sid. I was starting to wear out my red pencil, what with all the errors you were making. Good to see you capable of improvement. There is hope.

About long recurves: I'll keep this simple, Sid. Just for you. Please tell me why no good shooters use the very common 60" length (for recurve in the states) for pursing Olympic Gold or any other competitive archery event? Why no 58" bows? They are very handy and give terrific speed. No horse bows at the top field archery contests. I look and look, no short bows in the hands of men or women in competitive archery at top levels. I only see bows of decent length. Do you suppose that length might be of some importance?

You get back to me on that when you have time. And good show improving your spelling, punctuation, and continuity of thought. Much easier on us readers of your nonsense.


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## theminoritydude (Feb 11, 2013)

Stone Bridge said:


> Most Korean ladies draw at, or under 27". Most shoot long limbs. They only look at the scores because the Korean ladies only care about winning and not how fast their bows shoot. They are funny that way. Silly girls.


You're describing a black box. While you have correctly concluded that score is of utmost importance to them, your assertion that they do not look at how fast their bows shoot is somewhat misleading.


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## Stone Bridge (May 20, 2013)

theminoritydude said:


> You're describing a black box. While you have correctly concluded that score is of utmost importance to them, your assertion that they do not look at how fast their bows shoot is somewhat misleading.


Sure, they look at speed, but only after they tally their scores. If they are not scoring as they'd like, they might ascertain more speed is needed. So they lighten their arrows or use more poundage. They don't move to horse bow lengths. They don't start shooting short bows at all. Most just train to a higher draw weight, just like me. I only draw 27". For me to get more speed I up the poundage and use my limbs almost fully screwed down - lots of preload.


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## theminoritydude (Feb 11, 2013)

So far I have seen a number of individuals here who claim to know how the Koreans train and shoot. I'm funny this way, but I tend to believe it only when I ask a Korean who has been through that system, whether or not the claims made here are true. And from what I have heard, half truths are widespread.

Half truths, can be quite detrimental.


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## Stone Bridge (May 20, 2013)

minority dude, a few years ago a Korean coach wrote a lengthy article online about Korean training methods. He was involved with the women's group. I do not remember his name. This coach made a number of very clear statements about how they train and the equipment they use. His number one point was that shooting is done mainly with the mind, the brain. 

His second point was the importance of keeping very accurate data for each athlete. He was refering to scores made in practice and in competition over many years. All equipment choices, not brands so much, but limbs styles and lengths, were based solely on how well the shooter scored. This is all that matters in target archery, a point seemingly lost on many who insist on arguing limb minutia irrelevant to the ultimate score. Target archery is only about the score, not arrow speed. 

So the Koreans shoot and keep careful records of what bow lengths fit which archers the best as indicated by the scores they shoot on the course. They do not get sidetracked by advertising or silly archery forums, they get very intent on their final pile of numbers after the shooting has stopped. So after doing this kind of very careful data collecting, it was found that longer bows are easier to make good scores with. Of course every target shooter of note in the world already knows this, hence the use of long recurves we see on the playing field.

I don't like talking to you like you're 5-years-old, but honestly, at times it has me shaking my head that so many people can look at the obvious and not see what is before them. Just look at the bows the ladies are shooting!!! No horse bows, no 60" recurves. Most are shooting bows as tall, or taller than they are. I shoot a bow one inch shorter than me. (68") I do this because it groups better than a short bow.

The Korean coach wasn't telling any experienced archers anything new. I'm sure most top shooters test their limb choices out for score, too. They all end up shooting long recurves. All of them. Every last one I've ever seen. It's not a coincidence.


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## chrstphr (Nov 23, 2005)

theminoritydude said:


> So far I have seen a number of individuals here who claim to know how the Koreans train and shoot. I'm funny this way, but I tend to believe it only when I ask a Korean who has been through that system, whether or not the claims made here are true. And from what I have heard, half truths are widespread.
> 
> Half truths, can be quite detrimental.




i personally have read several first hand accounts of training with the Korean National team. I have also watched a number of Korean tv shows focused on the National archery team showing their training. 


I also am friends with several archers on the current national team and a couple of coaches from Facebook and the Vegas shoot. I ask them questions from time to time, so i would hazard a guess that i have fairly accurate information. I even get to see personal cell phone videos they take of their training. 

i personally have never trained with the Korean National team, so i have no first hand knowledge aside from what Hyejin Chang, Dasomi Jung or Young Sook Park have told me. But i take their word for anything they tell me. It is possible they give me mis information, but i tend to think they are sharing a common bond of being fellow archers and giving information freely. 

perhaps i am mistaken.

Hyejin Chang, me and Park Se Hui

View attachment 2096617


Chris


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## Stone Bridge (May 20, 2013)

So, Chris, you've seen these people in person. You've looked at their equipment. Any short bows in the group? Not jumping on you, understand. But doesn't every person from every country in the game use a longish recurve? Maybe you could tell us what you saw with your own eyes. I know it's tough to tell a bow length between 68 and 70 inches apart, but I can easily tell a 23, 25 or 27 inch riser apart from a hundred feet away. Same goes for short limbs. I can easily tell a short from a long by eyesight at a distance.

So if you could, what did it appear the Koreans were shooting for length? This is rhetorical for me, I'm asking for the dude. He's having a hard time, I think.

Oh, and one last question you could answer if you have the patience. Another rhetorical one, but it's needed. Why do you believe all shooters use long recurves when many nice 58 and 60 inch bows of great speed are available. I get no respect around here because I can't soften my answers, and don't care to, but you're a decent fellow. I've read your stuff for years. You're involved in formal target archery and get around. So most should respect your observations on equipment choices and why they are what they are. A lot to ask, I know.


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## chrstphr (Nov 23, 2005)

speed has no importance once you can reach the target with your sight. Longer bow is more forgiving and smoother. Unless you are on horseback, or hunting through brush and obstacles, there is no reason to shoot a short bow. 

The Korean ladies all shoot bows as tall or taller than they are. If that can be attained by 23 inch or 25 inch, with medium or long limbs, then that is what it is. Most of the bows i saw close up were 25 inch bows with medium or long limbs. The ladies are not tall, but they are not that short either. I am 6 feet tall. You can see in the photo, Park Se Hui is not that much shorter then me, and Hyejin is certainly over 5 feet. 

I think they mostly shoot the long bow because the finger pinch is less, and the string angle is better for the anchor. Neither of those two ladies are shooting short limbs. Also the reaction is smoother during recoil on the longer bow. It is not as aggressive a shot. The Korean ladies all have a very smooth shot. I have not personally taken Hyejin Chang's bow apart and looked at her limb info, nor do i need to. All the world cup videos show the limb tips above their head/ hat. Its a long bow in relation to the shooter. 


may all my competitors shoot a short bow. very short. Give them the speed. I will ask Hyejin or Dasomi what riser length and limb length she shoots and see what she says. I will see if she will tell me what the team shoots on average for riser and limb length. 


Chris


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## theminoritydude (Feb 11, 2013)

Stone Bridge said:


> minority dude, a few years ago a Korean coach wrote a lengthy article online about Korean training methods. He was involved with the women's group. I do not remember his name. This coach made a number of very clear statements about how they train and the equipment they use. His number one point was that shooting is done mainly with the mind, the brain.
> 
> His second point was the importance of keeping very accurate data for each athlete. He was refering to scores made in practice and in competition over many years. All equipment choices, not brands so much, but limbs styles and lengths, were based solely on how well the shooter scored. This is all that matters in target archery, a point seemingly lost on many who insist on arguing limb minutia irrelevant to the ultimate score. Target archery is only about the score, not arrow speed.
> 
> ...


You know, this reminds me of the many books and movies by authors who were special forces veterans describing in detail how exactly they train their nations' elites to fight their opponents.


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## theminoritydude (Feb 11, 2013)

Regardless of what was discussed, I don't believe that anyone would use a longer or shorter set of limbs. These only come as a relative description, when compared to what individuals consider as datum. Everyone uses their correct length, until they decide it no longer is.


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## Borderbows (Apr 4, 2009)

Stone Bridge said:


> Hey, at least you cleaned up your English paper, Sid. I was starting to wear out my red pencil, what with all the errors you were making. Good to see you capable of improvement. There is hope.
> 
> About long recurves: I'll keep this simple, Sid. Just for you. Please tell me why no good shooters use the very common 60" length (for recurve in the states) for pursing Olympic Gold or any other competitive archery event? Why no 58" bows? They are very handy and give terrific speed. No horse bows at the top field archery contests. I look and look, no short bows in the hands of men or women in competitive archery at top levels. I only see bows of decent length. Do you suppose that length might be of some importance?
> 
> You get back to me on that when you have time. And good show improving your spelling, punctuation, and continuity of thought. Much easier on us readers of your nonsense.


Did i mention 60" bows.
i mentioned keeping the bow lenth the same. But using a longer riser. Read my posts.... check it out for yourself.


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## Borderbows (Apr 4, 2009)

chrstphr said:


> speed has no importance once you can reach the target with your sight. Longer bow is more forgiving and smoother. Unless you are on horseback, or hunting through brush and obstacles, there is no reason to shoot a short bow.
> 
> The Korean ladies all shoot bows as tall or taller than they are. If that can be attained by 23 inch or 25 inch, with medium or long limbs, then that is what it is. Most of the bows i saw close up were 25 inch bows with medium or long limbs. The ladies are not tall, but they are not that short either. I am 6 feet tall. You can see in the photo, Park Se Hui is not that much shorter then me, and Hyejin is certainly over 5 feet.
> 
> ...


So might i ask.
The approx drop in speed with a limb length change is 2fps. Buts not as much with a riser length.
If the longest bow possible is the desired effect. Speed permitting. Why not take use of the 27" risers...

And why are we not seeing more xl limbs come out from the korean manufacturers. Surely the taller guys out there also would like this extra widestring angle if its putting scores on the board


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## chrstphr (Nov 23, 2005)

Borderbows said:


> So might i ask.
> The approx drop in speed with a limb length change is 2fps. Buts not as much with a riser length.
> If the longest bow possible is the desired effect. Speed permitting. Why not take use of the 27" risers...
> 
> And why are we not seeing more xl limbs come out from the korean manufacturers. Surely the taller guys out there also would like this widestring angle if its putting scores on the board


my personal opinion is that the 27 inch riser and longer limbs weight more with stabs etc and there is a trade off. more forgiving but harder to manage and control. ( i see this personally in a JOAD student of mine who struggles with her form while shooting a 27 inch riser, long limbs and 15 inch side rods. Its too much weight to heft. ( but she refuses to release said equipment as it has sentimental value). 

so only so much weight that can be managed precisely. Also XL limbs are more costly to make. Most of the Korean method seems to show a standard ( like all archers shoot right handed). I would think its too much trouble in the school system to know or keep left handed bows. So they just stock right handed and have enough to keep the pool of up and comers full. 

I think you will find across the board at World cup events, there are few short limbs and fewer 23 inch riser. The standard is a 68 or 70 inch bow. In the future will it be 78 inch bow? who is to say.

for me i went from 68 to 70 and it was much better for many reasons. every one else's milage will vary. 

Chris


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## chrstphr (Nov 23, 2005)

Dasomi Jung says she shoots a 68 inch bow. 25 inch riser and medium limbs. 


Chris


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## Borderbows (Apr 4, 2009)

Archery is about longer angles and good stored energy. Longer draws give you this.

As fiberbow have shown risers can be 600 grams. The korean teams have acess to some quality manufacturers. 
Im still sat hear with a head full of rhitoric questions... according to this thread. They have found that longer than earl hoyt geom gets better scores but they still produce earl hoyt geom bows.


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## Borderbows (Apr 4, 2009)

Why would a xl limb be more costly to make... to the point you would risk points if this thread is to be followed.
The material used in limb making comes in rolls for the most part.
Its 1" per limb.
If its a trend thats putting winners on the poduim. For top prices that top limbs demand... Uukha have managed to come up with multiple entire model series of limbs since 2010...


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## Borderbows (Apr 4, 2009)

Id think its more about fitting a school system.


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## chrstphr (Nov 23, 2005)

Borderbows said:


> Why would a xl limb be more costly to make... to the point you would risk points if this thread is to be followed.
> The material used in limb making comes in rolls for the most part.
> Its 1" per limb.
> If its a trend thats putting winners on the poduim. For top prices that top limbs demand... Uukha have managed to come up with multiple entire model series of limbs since 2010...


so a formula limb is as cheap to make as a ILF limb? a short limb costs the same as a long limb to manufacture? 

I dont manufacture limbs so i have no idea. I wasnt aware they cost the same to manufacture. I said my post was my personal opinion. 


Chris


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## Warbow (Apr 18, 2006)

chrstphr said:


> so a formula limb is as cheap to make as a ILF limb? a short limb costs the same as a long limb to manufacture?
> 
> I dont manufacture limbs so i have no idea. I wasnt aware they cost the same to manufacture. I said my post was my personal opinion.
> 
> ...


I think Sid is saying the longer limbs do cost more to make, but the increase in manufacturing costs has a relatively linear relationship to limb length, a relatively small expense that would be well justified if the longer bows really do increase points at the international level.


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## Corene1 (Apr 27, 2014)

I am no expert on limb design or the technical aspects of limb manufacturing. I am just trying to learn as much as I can about archery by reading these posts and shooting as much as possible. It seems as though going to extremes on either end of the length scale would have diminishing results on efficiency and accuracy, and at some point there has to be a balance made. I would venture to say that the limb designers at Win&Win or Hoyt have done their homework to develop the best performing system possible and I would imagine that research and development is trying anything and everything that would give their shooters an advantage. There are certainly more national and world class shooters out there that are not limited to shooting the equipment they are paid to shoot as it has been mentioned here about the Korean shooters,, they have chosen what works best for them and most if not all that I have seen use 68 to 70 inch bows. In my own experience my 68 inch set up while a bit slower than my 66 inch set up is much more forgiving and has more consistent groupings at 70 meters with all things being equal. Same arrow , same weight on the fingers and both on 25 inch risers, 27.5 inch draw, but then I am an amateur and still learning.


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## Borderbows (Apr 4, 2009)

Now. My next question is...
If only enough speed is needed to reach the target. Within the window of the riser. And long limbs delivered best scores. And this pattern of longer was more accurate. I know faster designs are possible. So would a change in limb design facilitate longer limb to be used and still attain enough speed to hit the target.
But no.... they still use earl hoyt bow geometry.
i have alot of questions about why only the ladies use a less efficent setup. Yet the men dont follow this in such an obvious way. And that other combinations of kit selection are not being persued or manufactured.
Speaking to a long term cnc miller for a F1 team. Those guys drill out most bolts and thread roll most threads in the pursuit of points. They even roll the threads then drill the centre out the bolt afterwards to reduce the risk of the rolling from crushing the diam of the threads. In the persuit of points.
these national team members have access to kit we dont. Afterall its in the manufacturers interest to do thier best


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## Borderbows (Apr 4, 2009)

Warbow said:


> I think Sid is saying the longer limbs do cost more to make, but the increase in manufacturing costs has a relatively linear relationship to limb length, a relatively small expense that would be well justified if the longer bows really do increase points at the international level.


Smaller companies who dont have the economies of scale that these larger companies do.... manage to make a range of limb lengths. Ecomonies of scale on material purchasing
And capital recouperation on tooling costs from the volume of sales produced.
i dont see a single limb model being a cost problem on poduim places.


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## theminoritydude (Feb 11, 2013)

There seems to be some kind of compartmentalization going on here. Within the context of limb length selection, we have discussed the correlation between stability and limb dimension, as if limb length is the only determinant of a stable shot or tight groups. The moment we move away from this thread, every other factor comes into consideration, until the OP decideds what the title should be. Who else here noticed this?


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## theminoritydude (Feb 11, 2013)

I noticed that there is a habit among archers of changing one parameter without making appropriate adjustments to other parameters, with scant regard for balance. Hence it wouldn't surprise me if a large number of folks are not fully exploiting the different limb lengths to get the most speed of of the right length, while having taken care of other factors.


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## Borderbows (Apr 4, 2009)

theminoritydude said:


> I noticed that there is a habit among archers of changing one parameter without making appropriate adjustments to other parameters, with scant regard for balance. Hence it wouldn't surprise me if a large number of folks are not fully exploiting the different limb lengths to get the most speed of of the right length, while having taken care of other factors.


A change in brace height will impact in centreshot for example


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## Vittorio (Jul 17, 2003)

Sometime I think people has lost the vision of the objective of archery: hitting the gold constantly. 
Speed comes from many different factors, but a specific arrow can only tune for recurve inside a limited range of poundage and closing speed of the limbs. So, i f you have found the so called "perfect arrow" for the range of poundage you can manage, speed can vary very little without changing arrow parmeters. But, as Arrow comes first, , dicussion becomes a nonsense, as you have to look for the best limbs in the range of poundage that still can shoot the same arrow. Faster limbs allow around 2# advantage to get the same speed out of the same bow, as you will easily find that speed becomes a constant, if arrow is the same. Otherwise, tuning for that arrow will not be the same. 
Each top level archer has his own "preferred" arrow, in terms of size/spine, lenght, FOC, nock and point. For several year, the best preferred arrow for manytop level archers was the x10 450 around 28" with tungsten point , 1 3/4 Spin wing and Beiter out nock. At a certain historical time, the ntire Korena men team and many outside Korea, including Marco Galiazo winning th egold in Athens, were using the exactly same arrow. So, everyone was tuning th ebow for that arrow: faster limbs, reduce poundge, slower limbs, increase poundage, but arrow speed was ever the same. 
Then, the most used arrow in men Korean team now is the 380 X10 over 29". In London the 3 archers were all shooting the same arrows; simply, poundage is increased average from the 47# in 2004 to 50# and over in these days ... Limbs more efficient, archers more strong than in 2004. But, while Mauro Nespoli with his 60# was shooting the 380 in London > 235 km/hr, much faster than the Koreans there, he was using them cut a lot form the back, and this was making them crytical in grouping ... faster changing arrow parameters was proven again to be wrong . 
Korean men national team members are using 70# bow because they all have more than 29# draw and a flat face, no secrets. The Korean ladies shooting 68" are doing this because they have 28" draw, while those having 26 to 27" are using 66" bows, and one in Turkey last year was using a 64" bow, or at least a short (23") riser... There are no secrets, just logic choices, from both sides of the pond. All other things are just urban legends.


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## Borderbows (Apr 4, 2009)

Vittorio said:


> Sometime I think people has lost the vision of the objective of archery: hitting the gold constantly.
> Speed comes from many different factors, but a specific arrow can only tune for recurve inside a limited range of poundage and closing speed of the limbs. So, i f you have found the so called "perfect arrow" for the range of poundage you can manage, speed can vary very little without changing arrow parmeters. But, as Arrow comes first, , dicussion becomes a nonsense, as you have to look for the best limbs in the range of poundage that still can shoot the same arrow. Faster limbs allow around 2# advantage to get the same speed out of the same bow, as you will easily find that speed becomes a constant, if arrow is the same. Otherwise, tuning for that arrow will not be the same.
> Each top level archer has his own "preferred" arrow, in terms of size/spine, lenght, FOC, nock and point. For several year, the best preferred arrow for manytop level archers was the x10 450 around 28" with tungsten point , 1 3/4 Spin wing and Beiter out nock. At a certain historical time, the ntire Korena men team and many outside Korea, including Marco Galiazo winning th egold in Athens, were using the exactly same arrow. So, everyone was tuning th ebow for that arrow: faster limbs, reduce poundge, slower limbs, increase poundage, but arrow speed was ever the same.
> Then, the most used arrow in men Korean team now is the 380 X10 over 29". In London the 3 archers were all shooting the same arrows; simply, poundage is increased average from the 47# in 2004 to 50# and over in these days ... Limbs more efficient, archers more strong than in 2004. But, while Mauro Nespoli with his 60# was shooting the 380 in London > 235 km/hr, much faster than the Koreans there, he was using them cut a lot form the back, and this was making them crytical in grouping ... faster changing arrow parameters was proven again to be wrong .
> Korean men national team members are using 70# bow because they all have more than 29# draw and a flat face, no secrets. The Korean ladies shooting 68" are doing this because they have 28" draw, while those having 26 to 27" are using 66" bows, and one in Turkey last year was using a 64" bow, or at least a short (23") riser... There are no secrets, just logic choices, from both sides of the pond. All other things are just urban legends.


Makes sense.... 
if you get grouped matched tuned arrows that will group for free then tune your bow to your ammo...


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## Corene1 (Apr 27, 2014)

Theminoritydude mentioned balance in a set up and how minor changes can affect other aspects of the setup. If limbs get longer, as was mentioned in an earlier post. How would this affect the stability of the limb during the shot? Or it's ability to perform consistently shot to shot? I am no bowyer , but maybe the long limb is at it's maximum for a balance between consistency, stability, and speed. Just a thought.


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## Borderbows (Apr 4, 2009)

Corene1 said:


> Theminoritydude mentioned balance in a set up and how minor changes can affect other aspects of the setup. If limbs get longer, as was mentioned in an earlier post. How would this affect the stability of the limb during the shot? Or it's ability to perform consistently shot to shot? I am no bowyer , but maybe the long limb is at it's maximum for a balance between consistency, stability, and speed. Just a thought.


Its also the longest flexing in all directions variation of components in the system. The riser flexes but to microscopic amounts in comparison to the limbs. 
But also winding the limbs in to max will effect the stability and timing of the limbs. So the tiller full out will be different to full in.
But vertical stability is lower on limbs wound in if the brace height is kept constant.
The brace can run lower if you wind limb bolts in. And regain the vertical resistance to np movement.


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## chrstphr (Nov 23, 2005)

Hyejin Chang says she shoots a 66 inch bow. When i asked her if she shoots a 25 inch riser and short limbs, or a 23 inch riser and medium limbs, she responded that she shoots LONG limbs. I am not sure how she can shoot a Win Win riser with long limbs and get a 66 inch bow. 

I think the 66 inch bow is a typo. 

And she said her draw length is 27. for what its worth.


Chris


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## Stone Bridge (May 20, 2013)

chrstphr said:


> Hyejin Chang says she shoots a 66 inch bow. When i asked her if she shoots a 25 inch riser and short limbs, or a 23 inch riser and medium limbs, she responded that she shoots LONG limbs. I am not sure how she can shoot a Win Win riser with long limbs and get a 66 inch bow.
> 
> I think the 66 inch bow is a typo.
> 
> ...


Would bet it's a typo. No doubt a 68" bow on a 23" riser. She draws the same length as me. Long limbs do feel nice even for short folk like us. Have never had an issue with speed.

Thanks for your efforts.


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## chrstphr (Nov 23, 2005)

nothing like getting info directly from the source.

i just wish my Korean was better. i could clear up any confusion. 

but i am very thankful they both responded to my questions.

chris


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