# Holding and floating.



## tmorelli (Jul 31, 2005)

Economy of words here;

why shoot those shots? 

Those days when the pin really sits sure are nice. They aren't every day though for most of us. I sometimes have to remind myself that I don't have to shoot through uncomfortable pin motion and to "let" the pin really settle... but I don't want to be incapable of making good shots and scoring x's unless the pin is dead steady either. 

If your pin motion spikes from one shot to the next, it's a set up issue. Bail out.
If your mind is analyzing your shot at full draw (and it sounds like it is....perhaps even "anticipating"). Bail out.

Do not let those shots go. Every shot is training your next one. Those are habits you don't want to become part of your shot sequence.

Aim and wait. Let it shoot. If it didn't go, you probably weren't aiming hard enough.

Just my 2 cents.


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## subconsciously (Aug 22, 2009)

I can usually tell when my "set up" is not right cause the float isnt right. The use of unneeded muscle on the shot will give you a poor float and the herky jerky's. Remember that aiming should be passive. Let your mind aim - you have to trust it. The reason many poor shots hit the mark, is your subconsious aiming. Before you can consciously move the pin back - your subconscious is doing it for you.

Some people "wait" for the shot to go off. I have talked to a really good pro shooter who has taken lessons from Terry Wunderle and he says you should never "wait". The shot needs to be executed. When the sight picture is good, you execute. You will not know the exact time its going off - but your not waiting or hoping for it to go off.

Have I been there? Sure I have, but I have made the turn to execution.


02


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## tmorelli (Jul 31, 2005)

Yeah, scary wording on my part. 

I want my shot running subconsciously.... so by "waiting" I'm just allowing it to run as I aim. 

I do not want to be found guilty of being "static".... JUST waiting.

Hope that makes sense.


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## cbrunson (Oct 25, 2010)

So then assuming you guys are consistent 300 Vegas shooters, are you suggesting that every shot you release is a good one? You never squeeze in a couple you probably shouldn’t have? 

I am at that consistent 297-300 Vegas game. Two thirds of my shots on a Vegas face are usually perfectly executed. (Xs) 7-8 of them are close enough to perfect and pretty well executed. The remaining are often just outside the ten but the hold wasn’t far off from the other 7-8. Every now and then a real bad one gets loose but less and less often now. Those ones are easy to diagnose.

I’m not really looking for help, I know I need to let down more. I’m just curious how many others are at the same place in the learning curve.


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## cbrunson (Oct 25, 2010)

tmorelli said:


> Yeah, scary wording on my part.
> 
> I want my shot running subconsciously.... so by "waiting" I'm just allowing it to run as I aim.
> 
> ...


I think we are on the same page with that part of the process. and the differnce between executing the shot and force firing.


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## tmorelli (Jul 31, 2005)

cbrunson said:


> So then assuming you guys are consistent 300 Vegas shooters, are you suggesting that every shot you release is a good one? You never squeeze in a couple you probably shouldn’t have?
> 
> I am at that consistent 297-300 Vegas game. Two thirds of my shots on a Vegas face are usually perfectly executed. (Xs) 7-8 of them are close enough to perfect and pretty well executed. The remaining are often just outside the ten but the hold wasn’t far off from the other 7-8. Every now and then a real bad one gets loose but less and less often now. Those ones are easy to diagnose.
> 
> I’m not really looking for help, I know I need to let down more. I’m just curious how many others are at the same place in the learning curve.


Nope.... not speaking from the POV of a great dot shooter.....I'm pretty close to you. Avg 57-58x 5-spot.... 299 Vegas with 23-24. Generally, I can pound out a 300 on command (once per day) on my good days, 26-27x with a few higher rounds. The second seems to get me... lack of conditioning for spots, lack of focus... I like 3d and field 

Like you, its really rare that I get a surprise miss. I'd say 95+% of my misses, I knew were out before they got off the bow.


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## nochance (Nov 27, 2008)

tmorelli said:


> If your mind is analyzing your shot at full draw (and it sounds like it is....perhaps even "anticipating"). Bail out.
> Just my 2 cents.


Good advice, ran in to some of this in my Monday league.


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## nochance (Nov 27, 2008)

Been working on my timing with my hunter setup(5 spot). Draw, let pin float, un-weight thumb peg (on hinge), pull through. I like the release to go off in 3-5 seconds. After 7 the float gets larger, I know I should let down but sometimes still try and wait it out, this is when I miss the X and once in a while the 5. I should just let down and start over. Loving this new forum, lots of good advice.


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## cbrunson (Oct 25, 2010)

nochance said:


> Good advice, ran in to some of this in my Monday league.


It is great advice…… and tough to follow. :grin:

It’s really hard to back out of a shot. The thing that has been helping me, is to practice letting down. Draw, acquire target, hold as long as possible and then let down. Rinse and repeat. It just needs to stick in my brain when the game is serious.


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## mainehunt (Sep 11, 2006)

cbrunson said:


> It is great advice…… and tough to follow. :grin:
> 
> It’s really hard to back out of a shot. The thing that has been helping me, is to practice letting down. Draw, acquire target, hold as long as possible and then let down. Rinse and repeat. It just needs to stick in my brain when the game is serious.


You know, I have never let down and then wished I hadn't..............


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## N7709K (Dec 17, 2008)

It comes down to trying to shoot scores over shooting good shots; when you shoot for scores you get hesitant and your shot timing lengthens, float breaks down, and groups start opening. When you settle in and shoot good shots the scores follow and groups tighten... The catch is that the scoring personality cannot shoot the bow well and the personality than runs a strong mental program to shoot good shots cannot score. 

How much do you shoot blank bale, close games, unscored games? How much have you put into tuning your hold pattern and dl to give you the best amount of forgiveness when you need to give that last 2lbs of pressure to get the release to break?


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## cbrunson (Oct 25, 2010)

N7709K said:


> It comes down to trying to shoot scores over shooting good shots; when you shoot for scores you get hesitant and your shot timing lengthens, float breaks down, and groups start opening. When you settle in and shoot good shots the scores follow and groups tighten... The catch is that the scoring personality cannot shoot the bow well and the personality than runs a strong mental program to shoot good shots cannot score.
> 
> How much do you shoot blank bale, close games, unscored games? How much have you put into tuning your hold pattern and dl to give you the best amount of forgiveness when you need to give that last 2lbs of pressure to get the release to break?


I'm only talking about the shot picture here, not the game. My practice is nearly identical to competition. I've been doing this long enough to know when I need to add or remove a couple twists to get comfortable. The only value in unscored games is exercise in my opinion. Since the mental game is the hard part to master, I think it needs the most practice. Just my opinion of course, and I think that is why my practice and competition scores are very close.

I just need to let down when the shot starts to break down.


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## buckshot087 (Mar 18, 2010)

How still is everyone's sight picture? Id like to know what Im looking for. Does your pin stay in the 10 ring on Vegas? Or float around the 9? etc.. I've heard people say their pin stays on the "x" or inside the 10, and I don't believe it. If you pin never leaves the "x", how can you miss? Can anyone else say their pin is that steady?


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## Arron (Nov 18, 2012)

I wish I could find the slow motion video of a Olympic archer floating his aperture on the X that I had watched. Pretty amazing on how much it floated until his mind found the sight picture it was looking for and he shot. All happens in a fraction of a second.


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## N7709K (Dec 17, 2008)

so do you run a twist or two on the short or long side? do you feel your float is the best you can get it?

on an average day my dot will never leave drift fully off of the 10 ring with the majority of shots having the dot fully within big 10 when the shot breaks. on a good day my dot never leave the inside of big 10; bad day i may touch the red with the edge of my dot on the worst shot. i run more weight on my bars than the majority of shooters, i run a higher holding weight, and I happen to be able to hold very very well...


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## Ned250 (Aug 10, 2009)

mainehunt said:


> You know, I have never let down and then wished I hadn't..............


This is SO TRUE. A X is almost automatic on the shot after a let down. I tell myself that every time I start to doubt a let down.

It's like a mulligan in golf. How many times have you shanked a shot... grabbed another ball, stood up there and bombed the crap out of it right down the middle?


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## aread (Dec 25, 2009)

I'm not a consistent 300 Vegas shooter either, but I've shot with several and done my best to pick their brains.

I also know about the poor shots that go in the X anyway.

The better the shooter, the more they agree with Tony's first question, "why shoot those shots?". Another way to say it is "Don't let yourself shoot bad shots". Or "If the shot isn't going the way it should, let down". Or in response to why he switched to a thumb trigger, "because I can let down easier than with a hinge."

Letting down is one of the harder things to do in archery. Mainhunt's post is dead on "You know, I have never let down and then wished I hadn't.............. "

JMHO,
Allen


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## buckshot087 (Mar 18, 2010)

I run my draw a little on the short side. My pin is usually pretty steady but not steady enough to sit in the middle the whole time. I'd say normally mine will wonder around the outside of the 10. I usually stay inside the 9 but occasionally dip out the bottom or even out the side of the 9. I still shoot pretty good. I average 298 Vegas with around 20x, and 55-57 x on 5spot. Some shots I feel like my pin is locked on the 10 and won't leave it but that isn't all the time. Should I play with my draw or am I just being inconsistent with my form?


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## tmorelli (Jul 31, 2005)

Ned250 said:


> It's like a mulligan in golf.


A bit off topic... but applicable since we're amongst a crowd of target shooters.

Your phrasing is a little like the way I describe the power of visualization. 

How often in practice do you make a bad shot and then the next one runs automatic. Its a do-over, it is lessons learned and applied instantly. 

When we are anxious about a shot (or even when we aren't), a few seconds occuring simultaneously with our shot sequence (during prep phases) to visualize that shot going exactly the way we want it to is a powerful thing. The more detail the better. Then, when you come to full draw to make that shot, you've already seen that pin float perfectly, you've already felt that shot break exactly the way you want it to, you've already seen that nock bury in the x and heard the soft sound of a pounded out hole. Good visualization will make the real shots indistinguishable from the visualized ones. 

The best shooters on the planet are the best at this. For me it's primarily been a calming or centering exercise... for those guys, it's a discipline. They are doing it for entire events....seasons....not moments. But, don't underestimate the value of it "in the moment" either. It is a practiced skill. It starts with a moment and builds from there.


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## cbrunson (Oct 25, 2010)

N7709K said:


> so do you run a twist or two on the short or long side? do you feel your float is the best you can get it?
> 
> on an average day my dot will never leave drift fully off of the 10 ring with the majority of shots having the dot fully within big 10 when the shot breaks. on a good day my dot never leave the inside of big 10; bad day i may touch the red with the edge of my dot on the worst shot. i run more weight on my bars than the majority of shooters, i run a higher holding weight, and I happen to be able to hold very very well...


If it feels long I'll go put a couple twists in. If it feels heavy I may back it down and get it back to that comfy spot. Or move it back if I feel cramped. Like I said, 90% of the time the dot sits perfect through the shot. One or two out of thirty I seem to go brain dead and let a bad shot go. I'm running pretty heavy too.


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## cbrunson (Oct 25, 2010)

buckshot087 said:


> I run my draw a little on the short side. My pin is usually pretty steady but not steady enough to sit in the middle the whole time. I'd say normally mine will wonder around the outside of the 10. I usually stay inside the 9 but occasionally dip out the bottom or even out the side of the 9. I still shoot pretty good. I average 298 Vegas with around 20x, and 55-57 x on 5spot. Some shots I feel like my pin is locked on the 10 and won't leave it but that isn't all the time. Should I play with my draw or am I just being inconsistent with my form?


I think at that level, it is 99% mental picking up those couple more points. Form and function have you pretty close. Gotta finish.


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## xavier102772 (Sep 2, 2010)

My float doesn't waver too much most of the time and sits fairly steady, sometimes it will move quite a bit and doesn't want to settle easily. I can pretty much chalk up my inconsistencies to the indian holding the bow...me, and one of more of 3 things, grip, bow arm, and release arm not where they should be.


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## Slingshot (Jan 1, 2008)

cbrunson said:


> When I am on, the dot just sits there in the center of the circles until the shot goes off. When it is bouncing around even a mild float, the shot is usually off. Even if it is still a ten, I feel like I should have let down because I know the shot could have been better. I’ve shot many Xs with a ridiculous amount of movement, but still more misses just outside the ten ring. (or Xs on 5-spot) Several tens with a lot of movement can provide a false confidence and then all of a sudden the misses start coming here and there. It can’t be possible to get the dot to sit still every time, and even impossible to get it to stop moving sometimes, but knowing the acceptable amount of movement can be achieved, right?
> 
> I am starting to find that picture in the sight window where I know it is an X before the shot is close to breaking. I also know when it has very little chance but I might get it in there before the shot breaks. Those are the shots that are kicking my butt. I get probably 90% of them but still fight the losing fight too many times. Who else is right there with me? You know what you need to do but your desire to execute the shot keeps you in it to long without drawing down.
> 
> I sure would like more of the ones that sit in the middle without moving. :grin:


I can shoot for days with almost no pin movement......

Than I have a day like yesterday where it was kinda all over the place, still shot 300 51 but dropped more x's on that round than I have in the last 10 combined. 

The key is to not let it bother you, and make sure it doesn't affect future shoots. No one is perfect everyday. 

As long as you know it's not your form breaking down or some other technical flaw don't worry about it. 

I shot a 30 arrow round 4 hours later that same day and shot 30 straight x's no warm up or anything. Sometimes it is what it is


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## ron w (Jan 5, 2013)

the key is that you don't have to work on improving float, that will happen by itself , because your shot process knows what is needed and is very self motivated to produce good results. 
what is needed is the discipline to recognize and acknowledge that when you see a shot developing poorly,....let down on it, and don't fall prey to the temptation of "saving the shot"....don't give the chance to over take your shot process and produce that missed shot. learn that a let down has as much legitimate value to yout shot process as a shot that goes right and hits it's mark, because the let down saves as many points lost as a good shot gains you. not in actual "point value" but in terms of a "hit x" or a "missed x".
the point is that when you get to the level of shooting where you are shooting for X's, a missed x has the same value as a hit x, even though that missed x still nets you the points of a bulls eye, it basically puts you out of the running. without that frame of mind applied to your practice, it won't improve your shooting.
only "perfect practice, makes perfect shooting".
the 10 yard bale is perfect for this sort of training. there you learn to allow yourself to let down with any anxiety, knowing that there is no differentiation between an abandoned shot set- up and a good successful shot that hits the x. that let down just saved you from a permanent reduction in score and gave you a chance to "save the shot" by starting over, rather than forcing the most probable out come of a missed shot.
it's that discipline that makes the pros what they are. there's plenty of guys that can shoot as well as allot of the top pros. it's the other side of the issue,.... that of being able to abandon a shot just as easily as let a good shot run, that makes them what they are. your shot process has to attain that "cold blooded, doesn't matter if the shot runs or gets abandoned", attitude, "only good shots will be allowed to run to fruition".
when that attitude is accomplished, your entire shot process becomes stronger , more reliable and more confident.


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## Slingshot (Jan 1, 2008)

ron w said:


> the key is that you don't have to work on improving float, that will happen by itself , because your shot process knows what is needed and is very self motivated to produce good results.
> what is needed is the discipline to recognize and acknowledge that when you see a shot developing poorly,....let down on it, and don't fall prey to the temptation of "saving the shot"....don't give the chance to over take your shot process and produce that missed shot. learn that a let down has as much legitimate value to yout shot process as a shot that goes right and hits it's mark, because the let down saves as many points lost as a good shot gains you. not in actual "point value" but in terms of a "hit x" or a "missed x".
> the point is that when you get to the level of shooting where you are shooting for X's, a missed x has the same value as a hit x, even though that missed x still nets you the points of a bulls eye, it basically puts you out of the running. without that frame of mind applied to your practice, it won't improve your shooting.
> only "perfect practice, makes perfect shooting".
> ...


Well said.... 

I train and shoot a lot, normally on a 30 arrow Vegas round I may let down two or 3 times max. I'm shooting for x's with standard diameter shafts, yesterday on that 5 spot round I must have let down a dozen times. 

Point is I was tired and beat up from working all week, I did not however use that as an excuse to shoot bad shots. 

I think you can let down to much though, but that's a confidence issue and not so much a holding one


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

subconsciously said:


> I can usually tell when my "set up" is not right cause the float isnt right. The use of unneeded muscle on the shot will give you a poor float and the herky jerky's. Remember that aiming should be passive. Let your mind aim - you have to trust it. The reason many poor shots hit the mark, is your subconsious aiming. Before you can consciously move the pin back - your subconscious is doing it for you.
> 
> Some people "wait" for the shot to go off. I have talked to a really good pro shooter who has taken lessons from Terry Wunderle and he says you should never "wait". The shot needs to be executed. When the sight picture is good, you execute. You will not know the exact time its going off - but your not waiting or hoping for it to go off.
> 
> ...


WAiting. ....

Kiss of death.
Training incomplete. 

Train for consistent shot execution timing...cadence....rhythm.

Works better in the long run.
humans are rhythmic
breathing
walking
heartbeat
the involuntary nervous system works in cycles. ..same timing

Train your shot process the same way....so you have near zero awareness
so the shot execution becomes a new nervous system response.
use video to analyze your shot timing window consistency.

Figure out WHY your shot timing is oooo inconsistent. 

It ALWAYS will be due to variations in your specific biomechanics.


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## ron w (Jan 5, 2013)

it is the internal clock we all have,... at work......
it organizes any frequently repeated procedure we do, to run in it's most efficient condition. the more tuned into that internal clock, your shot process gets, the more "outside, looking in" your conscious mind gets, in relation to your shot process. the less conscious input your shot process gets, the better you will shoot, because your shot becomes controlled "internally".


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## N7709K (Dec 17, 2008)

shot timing can vary just as much from the over aiming as it can from biomechanics; there isn't a one size fits all answer. Not having the two personalities at the same level of shot will vary timing as much if not more than anything else....


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## Slingshot (Jan 1, 2008)

I like to call it staying in front of the shot....

That means all focus is on the target, no waiting for the shot to go off. When you start waiting you get behind the shot by thinking about the release. 

You always have to shoot the shot, control the process. Always be at the target. In from of the shot


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## cbrunson (Oct 25, 2010)

Timing is fine as long as it doesn’t lead to punching. I think it does though. When all is perfect and the dot holds good, it’s a breeze to execute the shot. If there is a little more movement, it can be slowed down with a little more time and pull before starting the shot. Why would you want to worry about the timing? Just another thing to mess with your brain while you are trying to focus on the shot.


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## N7709K (Dec 17, 2008)

Consistency- you won't shooting winning scores with inconsistent shot timing. Watch footage of oly. recurve shooters, each shot looks the same as the one before; enough so it's hard to tell in some footage whether it is one shot at multiple angles or different shots.


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## tmorelli (Jul 31, 2005)

Consistency, rhythm, timing.... meh.

To me, all are byproducts of good mechanics and good practice.... a good shot that we trust. Timing isn't something I really put a lot of emphasis on. I want my shot sequence to run on it's own with rhythm but I wouldn't say I'm strict on myself....maybe I should be more than I am. If I notice it's run long...it's over. Don't fight it or try to save it. Start again. That isn't to say that I don't have shots go long but if it is going well (float is healthy, don't feel uncomfortable, tense, rushed, running out of air....like I said, if I notice it, it's over), I don't panic. I'm definitely not counting down. If it becomes a problem, I address it....normally this is simply a sign for me to be more aggressive. Fix it in the flow of things and move on. If a shot goes long every now and then, I just take it in stride. Honestly, sometimes I just enjoy aiming....I'm in no hurry to get it over with. On the other hand, if shots go quick on me... I don't dig that. I will make a release colder with the drop of a hat.

just my thoughts.


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## cbrunson (Oct 25, 2010)

N7709K said:


> Consistency- you won't shooting winning scores with inconsistent shot timing. Watch footage of oly. recurve shooters, each shot looks the same as the one before; enough so it's hard to tell in some footage whether it is one shot at multiple angles or different shots.


I've watched alot of shootdowns. I guess if you are talking strictly from when the guy decides to fire and the shot goes off, as the timing, it could be consistent. Definately not from draw, to fire, timing. Seems like it would void the purpose of a surprise release and make shooting a hinge more of a challenge than a benefit.


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## cbrunson (Oct 25, 2010)

tmorelli said:


> Consistency, rhythm, timing.... meh.
> 
> To me, all are byproducts of good mechanics and good practice.... a good shot that we trust. Timing isn't something I really put a lot of emphasis on. I want my shot sequence to run on it's own with rhythm but I wouldn't say I'm strict on myself....maybe I should be more than I am. If I notice it's run long...it's over. Don't fight it or try to save it. Start again. That isn't to say that I don't have shots go long but if it is going well (float is healthy, don't feel uncomfortable, tense, rushed, running out of air....like I said, if I notice it, it's over), I don't panic. I'm definitely not counting down. If it becomes a problem, I address it....normally this is simply a sign for me to be more aggressive. Fix it in the flow of things and move on. If a shot goes long every now and then, I just take it in stride. Honestly, sometimes I just enjoy aiming....I'm in no hurry to get it over with. On the other hand, if shots go quick on me... I don't dig that. I will make a release colder with the drop of a hat.
> 
> just my thoughts.


That's pretty much what I'm thinking.


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## Slingshot (Jan 1, 2008)

cbrunson said:


> That's pretty much what I'm thinking.


Look at it as a war.....

If you relentlessly attack the target it won't beat you

It's only you and the target you decide the outcome.


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## N7709K (Dec 17, 2008)

when you have a hinge down, you know when its gonna go off or there abouts... if you don't know the feeling of "almost there" you haven't shot enough, period. when a hinge is mastered it isn't so much a surprise release as it is a clean one; you don't know the exact moment when the release breaks, but you know when its on the edge and what a clean break feels like.

having consistent shot timing, in short consistent shots, is what it takes to put up winning scores. when the shot takes care of itself it leaves the shooter free to aim, run a mental program, whatever they see fit. 

Tony- do you try and get your shots indoors to break within a certain window? or just let them go until it either goes south or the release pops? i know you don't shoot a ton of indoors


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## tmorelli (Jul 31, 2005)

N7709K said:


> Tony- do you try and get your shots indoors to break within a certain window? or just let them go until it either goes south or the release pops? i know you don't shoot a ton of indoors


I'd reply like I did above. I have my "normal". A very high % of my shots are "normal" within 1...maybe 2 seconds. It doesn't bother me if some go longer. 

I let them go until it breaks my concentration. If my mind goes "dang....why isn't it gone?" or "is it gonna go" I'm already bailing out.


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## N7709K (Dec 17, 2008)

ok, so you have your standard shot timing that the majority of all shots fall in- you just don't stress every shot falling into it. does your timing very some between blank bale and on a target? or do you not put much thought into it?


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## twigzz88 (Jul 17, 2006)

Idk if this a good spot for this question so please move it if it isn't. But I've noticed with my shooting out side of 5-6 seconds I drop out of the center and slowly to the right.. I feel like If I could get a few more seconds in the center I could shoot a lot better! If I get the shots of within what little window I have they are usually pretty good and darn near touching at 20 yds.. Bu I'm running. 14 oz weight on my bar and thinking that could be part of the problem for dropping out the bottom.. Any ideas?


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## tmorelli (Jul 31, 2005)

N7709K said:


> ok, so you have your standard shot timing that the majority of all shots fall in- you just don't stress every shot falling into it. does your timing very some between blank bale and on a target? or do you not put much thought into it?


I'd be lying if I said I blank baled.  weren't expecting that were ya'?

In the winter I "kinda" blank bale...just shooting my bag in the house trying to maintain/rebuild muscle. My shots run normally... But no, I don't run a timer.


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## N7709K (Dec 17, 2008)

haha not gonna lie, but thats kinda what i figured


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## miko0618 (Mar 3, 2005)

I think you would be surprised at how consistent your timing is if you let it be. The problem is when you subconcious re-engages your concious to alert it of a problem. Either you need to get back on track or let down. Sometimes, you MUST make that shot. Heres what is missing from your game. You need enough confidence to be patient. You need to be patient enough to aim indefinately. Through stress and fatigue. So next time your subconcious awakens your concious, snap right back into just chillin out and aiming. You can calm your subconcious by extending the amount of time you give it to shoot a shot. I do it by running a heavier clicker. Or adjusting the moon for more travel. It tells my brain to take its time aiming because we're gonna be here a while. It allows your whole set up to settle in for the long haul. And typically, my shot timing never changes anyway. I just increase the patience window.


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## cbrunson (Oct 25, 2010)

I’m talking about one or two shots out 30 here that I know I should have let down instead of letting it go. I need to force myself to let down, not find inner peace. 
I understand shot timing vs aim timing. My shot timing is good. I think I misunderstood the timing reference at first.


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## miko0618 (Mar 3, 2005)

I agree you should let down if you feel you should. Or improve so it needs to happen less. And if you come into a situation where you dont have that option, it can still be a great shot after the let down thought enters your mind.


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## N7709K (Dec 17, 2008)

Big picture here- are the ones you dont let down the last x or two? Or points in the majority of games?


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## cbrunson (Oct 25, 2010)

N7709K said:


> Big picture here- are the ones you dont let down the last x or two? Or points in the majority of games?


See post #1

It is about those shots, not the game.


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## miko0618 (Mar 3, 2005)

cbrunson said:


> See post #1
> 
> It is about those shots, not the game.


I think you are being defensive? We are trying to help.


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## cbrunson (Oct 25, 2010)

miko0618 said:


> I think you are being defensive? We are trying to help.


Help with what? As I’ve said, it’s about getting out of the shot when it breaks down. I said I know when it is breaking down, I just try to save it too many times and sometimes it goes in. Sometimes it doesn’t. I need to get rid of both. Not through mechanics. Not through secret sauce or spiritual guidance. Strictly through self-discipline. The only question I asked was how many others were currently in the same boat.

I do however appreciate all of the insight and I am in no way getting defensive. The thread has taken a turn so if you re-read post #1 you might get back on track.


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## tmorelli (Jul 31, 2005)

There is no replacement for self discipline....except the secret sauce. 

I think what miko wanted to reinforce.... And not to devalue "timing" or "rhythm"....was simply to say a shot going long isn't necessarily a problem. How we react to it can be. 

You already know the answer to your issue. Commit to the solution.... If its going downhill, bail.


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## cbrunson (Oct 25, 2010)

Well now indoor is over, I’m gonna throw some more challenge into the secret sauce and stir in a little wind, unlevel ground, and long yardage. The wind loves to blow out this way. Swapped blades, dusted off the skinnys, and cranked the limbs. Gonna go tune her up tonight after work. :grin:


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## trumankayak (Dec 28, 2011)

mainehunt said:


> You know, I have never let down and then wished I hadn't..............


Man that is money right there ^^^ gonna steal that one


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## cbrunson (Oct 25, 2010)

Went pretty well with the ACGs. I think I'll go kill some foam this weekend.


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## rfnu518 (Feb 7, 2011)

Wow something is wrong here. A lot of good advice and different opinions and no nasty comments? 
Lol sorry just nice to read some good posts without all the garbage. 
Thanks to all that posted so far and its been a lot of help to me so I thought I should post and say....
Thank you!


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## miko0618 (Mar 3, 2005)

its because these guys arent here


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## Bowthrow (Nov 30, 2012)

tmorelli said:


> A bit off topic... but applicable since we're amongst a crowd of target shooters.
> 
> Your phrasing is a little like the way I describe the power of visualization.
> 
> ...


Now this carries some weight and allot of truth. This is my shot sequence in a nutshell. I visualize exactly what I'm going to do. I tell myself this is what I am going to do. I can see the arrow hit the spot before I ever pull back. I state at the target until I I visually the entire shot all the way from draw to the arrow buried in the target- and every step in between. 

This type of sequence will give you confidence and a process to follow every time. Not only will it allow you to tell when the pin is floating too much but it will tell you when anything in that sequence is wrong. Maybe your bow hand was too tense or your bow shoulder wasn't relaxed. It plain works for me.


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## trumankayak (Dec 28, 2011)

miko0618 said:


> View attachment 1905340
> its because these guys arent here


Nice


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## cbrunson (Oct 25, 2010)

rfnu518 said:


> Wow something is wrong here. A lot of good advice and different opinions and no nasty comments?
> Lol sorry just nice to read some good posts without all the garbage.
> Thanks to all that posted so far and its been a lot of help to me so I thought I should post and say....
> Thank you!


Nothing for sale here


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## Bowthrow (Nov 30, 2012)

cbrunson said:


> Nothing for sale here


And we're not discussing Levi or Elite.


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## miko0618 (Mar 3, 2005)

cbrunson said:


> Nothing for sale here


Lol


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## super* (Jan 26, 2008)

miko0618 said:


> I think you are being defensive? We are trying to help.


 He is not getting defensive he is getting sick of some nfaa pro beating around the true question the poor guy wants advise on.


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## miko0618 (Mar 3, 2005)

super* said:


> He is not getting defensive he is getting sick of some nfaa pro beating around the true question the poor guy wants advise on.


I dont understand?


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## N7709K (Dec 17, 2008)

Every shooter has the one or two they should have let down- but the scores don't always show it. I've shot more 329's where the bad ones were x's and a good one broke with the dot just off the x than I have the one that's out be a bad one. I don't let down a good number of shots that by all rights I should because I know the outcome of them- it's not going to be a miss, it's just not gong to be "the shot"- that is from buildin the game to a point where those shots don't have the detriment to overall score. 

Yea it's about the self discipline of letting down a couple bad ones, but wouldn't it be more productive to look to the cause of why those hangips happens and put the effort into neutralizing them?


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## miko0618 (Mar 3, 2005)

N7709K said:


> Every shooter has the one or two they should have let down- but the scores don't always show it. I've shot more 329's where the bad ones were x's and a good one broke with the dot just off the x than I have the one that's out be a bad one. I don't let down a good number of shots that by all rights I should because I know the outcome of them- it's not going to be a miss, it's just not gong to be "the shot"- that is from buildin the game to a point where those shots don't have the detriment to overall score.
> 
> Yea it's about the self discipline of letting down a couple bad ones, but wouldn't it be more productive to look to the cause of why those hangips happens and put the effort into neutralizing them?


That was kinda my point earlier. Fix the problem.


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## cbrunson (Oct 25, 2010)

N7709K said:


> Every shooter has the one or two they should have let down- but the scores don't always show it. I've shot more 329's where the bad ones were x's and a good one broke with the dot just off the x than I have the one that's out be a bad one. I don't let down a good number of shots that by all rights I should because I know the outcome of them- it's not going to be a miss, it's just not gong to be "the shot"- that is from buildin the game to a point where those shots don't have the detriment to overall score.
> 
> Yea it's about the self discipline of letting down a couple bad ones, but wouldn't it be more productive to look to the cause of why those hangips happens and put the effort into neutralizing them?


What is your opinion?


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## cbrunson (Oct 25, 2010)

miko0618 said:


> That was kinda my point earlier. Fix the problem.


What is the problem?


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## ron w (Jan 5, 2013)

cbrunson said:


> What is your opinion?


 yah, it would nice if we all could fix the problem easily. the more we train ourselves to accept the fact that we are eventually going to let down on a shot, and be able to deal with that, the better we will shot. as I've said before, we have to tech our shot process that a let down, has as much value as a successful shot. Lanny Basham, devotes an entire chapter in his book to just this theory.
your release execution, within your shot process has to have a "cold blooded attitude" about whether it runs or not, by teaching it that an abandoned set up ( by let down) has just as much "value to your round" as a shot that goes in.
this is done by 10 yard baling and shooting "perfect practice", only allowing the shots that are running perfectly, to proceed, and by letting down on any little deviation from that perfect execution every time it surfaces, it must be done with absolutely no exceptions to that rule, so only absolutely perfect executions (at least as perfect as we can make them), get the reinforcement of being allowed to run all the way to the shot breaking.
this specific issue, is why we see all the pros being able to let down so easily, as well as , with some, never let down. those that don't let down, are the ones with that perfect execution so well ingrained into their shot process, from running this specific drill. it teaches your release execution to not care whether it runs or not, as well as teaches your shot process that if it's going to run all the way to the shot breaking, it has to run perfectly. that's where the "mental toughness" comes into the picture.
they don't really have a "better mental game', they just have the understanding that "no shot will happen, if the execution isn't perfect" and are OK with that.


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## miko0618 (Mar 3, 2005)

cbrunson said:


> What is the problem?


That you have to let down in the first place


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## miko0618 (Mar 3, 2005)

miko0618 said:


> That you have to let down in the first place


Or whatever causes the shot to need aborting i guess


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## cbrunson (Oct 25, 2010)

ron w said:


> yah, it would nice if we all could fix the problem easily. the more we train ourselves to accept the fact that we are eventually going to let down on a shot, and be able to deal with that, the better we will shot. as I've said before, we have to tech our shot process that a let down, has as much value as a successful shot. Lanny Basham, devotes an entire chapter in his book to just this theory.
> your release execution, within your shot process has to have a "cold blooded attitude" about whether it runs or not, by teaching it that an abandoned set up ( by let down) has just as much "value to your round" as a shot that goes in.
> this is done by 10 yard baling and shooting "perfect practice", only allowing the shots that are running perfectly, to proceed, and by letting down on any little deviation from that perfect execution every time it surfaces, it must be done with absolutely no exceptions to that rule, so only absolutely perfect executions (at least as perfect as we can make them), get the reinforcement of being allowed to run all the way to the shot breaking.
> this specific issue, is why we see all the pros being able to let down so easily, as well as , with some, never let down. those that don't let down, are the ones with that perfect execution so well ingrained into their shot process, from running this specific drill. it teaches your release execution to not care whether it runs or not, as well as teaches your shot process that if it's going to run all the way to the shot breaking, it has to run perfectly. that's where the "mental toughness" comes into the picture.
> they don't really have a "better mental game', they just have the understanding that "no shot will happen, if the execution isn't perfect" and are OK with that.


I have shot with some of the best in the world (currently), and they let down more than one or two times in a game. Anything from grip slightly off to just not settling in before the window expires. I'm not saying the perfect shot can't be achieved every time, but I would feel safe betting that it doesn't for anyone. What to do with it when you recognize it is I think the better fight in my opinion.

Quite often the shot following a let down is close to perfect. Just gotta keep reminding myself of that.


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## cbrunson (Oct 25, 2010)

miko0618 said:


> Or whatever causes the shot to need aborting i guess


Such as?


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## miko0618 (Mar 3, 2005)

cbrunson said:


> Such as?


I dont know your shot.


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## cbrunson (Oct 25, 2010)

miko0618 said:


> I dont know your shot.


So what are you suggesting?

Remember I DO know what a good shot is. By feel from anchor to sight picture, through a good release.


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## miko0618 (Mar 3, 2005)

cbrunson said:


> So what are you suggesting?
> 
> Remember I DO know what a good shot is. By feel from anchor to sight picture, through a good release.


You analyze your shot to determine if you can improve anywhere


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## cbrunson (Oct 25, 2010)

miko0618 said:


> You analyze your shot to determine if you can improve anywhere


Ah, I see. I do that continuousy. And make adjustments when necessary. 

Depending on the amount of practice I get, I may be stronger or weaker any given day so I may have to adjust stabilizer weight, draw weight and or let-off. Sometimes a twist or two in or out on the string to get the feel right or to compensate for let-off adjustment. Even d-loop length to get my arm in the right position has been experimented with. Again, I know what it feels like when it is right, and I know how to get it there. Inside out tens right. That doesn’t take away an occasional slight variance in form that a stubborn mind will try to fight through to make the shot rather than accept that it was not gonna happen. I think those bad shots that make it in are also a contributor. As N77 said above you can also count the “good” one that went off with the dot just on the edge of the line but missed it by a hair. 

Are you by chance a pro shooter?


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## miko0618 (Mar 3, 2005)

I am not a current on tour pro. I think a true pro is out there shooting for a living. Or trying. I do shoot national stuff but not like i would want to. I think that i will have to be a tour pro later in life. However, in some folks eyes i could be considered pro. I guess its how you view it. But i would say i am a pro staffer but not tour pro. If that makes sense


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## N7709K (Dec 17, 2008)

My opinion is this-

If you are confident enough with your shot that you know you will shoot score "x" and x count "x" each game day in and day out; don't spend too much time on the shot. If you are unhappy with your x count or group size you have options as to how to approach it; one of those is working on your shot. If you are a high x shooter you need to train differently and need to work the mental approach to letting down; of you are a middle x shooter you should work on the mental approach as well, BUT you should put more into finding the variance that causes the hangups and the misses. 

This year in Vegas I let down twice on an arrow that just wasn't right- I was clean after day one, and had two I/o x's the first scoring end. Totally relaxed but I hung up when it came to shootin that last x, and not a good shot- I let down at :16 left on the clock and drew at :07, at :02 I just cranked it for points an shot an 8. I know the first two shots would have been 10'a but they weren't good shots- cost me my shot at the dance(in a way) but it reinforced wanting good shots. Took it in stride and didn't shoot a weak shot the rest of the weekend. The next arrow after the 8 was same hole as the first I/o x.


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## cbrunson (Oct 25, 2010)

N7709K said:


> My opinion is this-
> 
> If you are confident enough with your shot that you know you will shoot score "x" and x count "x" each game day in and day out; don't spend too much time on the shot. If you are unhappy with your x count or group size you have options as to how to approach it; one of those is working on your shot. If you are a high x shooter you need to train differently and need to work the mental approach to letting down; of you are a middle x shooter you should work on the mental approach as well, BUT you should put more into finding the variance that causes the hangups and the misses.
> 
> This year in Vegas I let down twice on an arrow that just wasn't right- I was clean after day one, and had two I/o x's the first scoring end. Totally relaxed but I hung up when it came to shootin that last x, and not a good shot- I let down at :16 left on the clock and drew at :07, at :02 I just cranked it for points an shot an 8. I know the first two shots would have been 10'a but they weren't good shots- cost me my shot at the dance(in a way) but it reinforced wanting good shots. Took it in stride and didn't shoot a weak shot the rest of the weekend. The next arrow after the 8 was same hole as the first I/o x.


My Vegas scores average pretty much identical to what you scored in Vegas. The last one I shot before switching to blue to get ready for state NFAA, the #2 and #3 spot were one hole. The first spot was a little messy but clean until about the 7th end when one slipped outside the ten. I shot straight Xs from there out. Every now and then I just have a brain fart and sail one, but they are getting fewer.

I will also add that I have only been shooting a target bow for about a year, and a hinge since the end of January. It's really nice having top level pros here at our local club to get pointers from. :wink:


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## ILOVE3D (Feb 4, 2009)

Tagged


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## cbrunson (Oct 25, 2010)

ILOVE3D said:


> Tagged


About a year later:

http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=2446773


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