# Titanium Pins for X-10s and ACEs?



## Oldpro (May 22, 2002)

I am building X-10 and ACE Titanium pins shortly.

I need to get a feel for who might be interested in them with a poll. Also the other shaft sizes.


----------



## Friar Tuck (Nov 18, 2004)

*Pins*

I would love a set for X-Cutters :darkbeer: :darkbeer:


----------



## RecordKeeper (May 9, 2003)

I'm in for x10s


----------



## j_man1100 (Dec 9, 2003)

Once you make the x-10 ones, put me down for 2 dozen


----------



## Meleagris1 (Jan 8, 2003)

Navigators! Wait a minute, I guess technically X10 pins are the same ones used with my Nav's, so ignore my vote for "other" and put me down for X10's.


----------



## Meleagris1 (Jan 8, 2003)

Please let me know btw if I am wrong about X10/Nav pins being interchangeable.


----------



## short-n-fast (Dec 4, 2004)

Navigators , and Acc's would be great


----------



## philipdimondo (Apr 10, 2004)

*let us know*

let us know when and what size is availble
looking for x-10 size 650


----------



## tecshooter05 (Mar 7, 2005)

x10 pins and navi pins aren't interchangable x10s r alot smaller

kyle


----------



## AT_X_HUNTER (Aug 10, 2005)

how about all of em'? The x-10, ace, acc, navigator, and GT's could use something stronger and forever straight.


----------



## Oldpro (May 22, 2002)

*X-10 vs Navigators*

According to my information the ACE pin will fit the Navigator sizes 1000,880,810,710,and 610. I believe the X-10 is much smaller.

As far as weight is conserned I am not sure of the design right now. A solid pin might be a little less expensive but one drilled out would be lighter. I am building prototypes that I can weigh. I will post those numbers soon. Right now that would be for the ACE.


----------



## Meleagris1 (Jan 8, 2003)

Gene, put me down for Navigators in size 480. :darkbeer:


----------



## 442fps (Dec 23, 2003)

What will be the weight and the price for ACE versions ?


----------



## Oldpro (May 22, 2002)

*Cost and weight???*

I am learning as I go!:darkbeer: 

The ACE and ACC unibushing take the same pin. The weight of the pin is 15 grains. The cost? I am working on that but it looks like $27.00 for 6. When I can order higher quantities, this may be reduced but that is where it is going for now. Please remember that this is the strongest alloy of Titanium and is nearly indestructible. This makes the material expensive. I will guarantee these pins for life provided you don't run over them with a freight train.:wink: This guarantee is for breakage or bending.


----------



## Detemeat (Oct 1, 2002)

I just bought some from Magnock for my Cartel Triples. They are slightly over-sized and are hitting my pro tuner rest.

I'm wanting to see how they perform in a few field rounds.


----------



## Jbird (May 21, 2002)

*Gene*

If you make pins for ACE's they should have some kind of cup that slips over the end of the shaft. ACE's don't fair too well using pins in them because hits on the pin split the back end of the shafts. The Navigators don't have this problem because they are much stronger on the back end.
Jbird


----------



## Bob_Looney (Nov 17, 2003)

"ACE's don't fair too well using pins in them because hits on the pin split the back end of the shafts."

come on,, what are you talking about?? i was told years ago by the "inventor" of the pin nock that what you stated is simply not true. In fact just last month on another site he said that in 12 years he has NEVER seen a split shaft that had a "glued in" pin. The only damaged arrows has seen had pins that were pushed in.  

sorry I couldn't hold back any longer. I get so tired of his "there is no problem" line I want to puke. ukey:


----------



## BIGT (Feb 10, 2005)

*Pin Nocks*

I voted for other, because I would love to see some for all of the Gold Tip shafts. I hunt with XT's, shoot 3D with Pro Series 22's, and shoot spots with the 30X's.


----------



## Oldpro (May 22, 2002)

*Splitting the shaft*

I have a theory! Due to the fact that the aluminum pins are soft and have a little flat spot on the back I believe that the arrow point will hang up and shove the point into the shaft. On the other hand my Titanium pins are pointed on the back and much more rigid the point will shove the arrow out of the way and deflect the point. This has been my experience so far. However, I don't break a lot of nocks. :wink: Some day.... when I get good maybe I will. I broke a nock at Redding at 20 yards that literally blew the nock into a million pieces but didn't phase the pin or the arrow. I replaced the nock and shot the next target right down the middle. Even if the shaft splitting was reduced by 50% it would be worth it.

Jbird,

I believe that making a cap on the back of the pin to slip over would add too much cost to the product. That is if it could be done in Titanium. There is a small ring around the pin that is about the same size of the outside of the shaft. However, some folks cut a little shaft off and that changes the diameter.

However, it is good to discuss the problems that folks have with the pins. Maybe I can design a little better way to make them.


----------



## Oldpro (May 22, 2002)

*Other sizes!*

BigT,

If the initial sales will justify the production of more sizes, I can increase inventory.


----------



## Oldpro (May 22, 2002)

*Nocking point*



Detemeat said:


> I just bought some from Magnock for my Cartel Triples. They are slightly over-sized and are hitting my pro tuner rest.
> 
> I'm wanting to see how they perform in a few field rounds.


I would raise my nocking point slightly. To me, nock contact to the rest is an indication of TOO LOW nocking point. I personally want the arrow to lift off the rest before the fletch get there.

Just a thought!


----------



## Oldpro (May 22, 2002)

*X-10 Pin*

Does anyone know the diameter of an X-10 pin? The part that goes into the shaft. I am waiting for some cut tubes so I can make a proto. I won't see them 'til tomorrow or Tuesday. I could make a proto today and therefore know what the weight will be.

Bob???


----------



## Jbird (May 21, 2002)

*Bob*

People can say the pins work well in the ACE's all they want. I shoot with guys who shoot ACE's and have tried them and they quit and went to a straight insert G-nock because they lost less shafts due to splitting on the back end. Dave Cousins told me he shoots G-Nocks in his ACE's for that very reason. Whatever works. LOL The pins work great in X-10's and Navigators.
Jbird


----------



## I BOW 2 (May 22, 2002)

We can tell you from first hand experiemce that you won't destroy a Ti pin when hit directly!...... But your ACE's will not be around to do the same bragging. The material wall thickness of the ACE is just to thin and fragile to use a "non-flexible" material that has that short of a stem inserted into the shaft. If the stem could be made considerably longer like the ACE point insert is made then the shaft may last longer. But this will add a considerable amount of tail weight to your arrow. The old AFC style of nock insert that slipped over the outside of the shaft has the most to offer in the future of insert development. But the taper diameter variablity when the shaft is cut is the big problem with that.  Ken


----------



## Bob_Looney (Nov 17, 2003)

Gene, if nobody comes forward before, call me at 9:00 monday morn and I'll mic some of my .410's

Jbird, GT sited Cousins as having never split the back end ....

Gene, i'll go down to the shop .....


----------



## Jbird (May 21, 2002)

*Lol*

I know what I was told but if you do a search on ACE's and pin nocks you will find that the combination is a real revenue builder for Easton. Shoot what you like, what do I know.:yield: 
Jbird


----------



## Oldpro (May 22, 2002)

*Salem*



Bob_Looney said:


> Gene, if nobody comes forward before, call me at 9:00 monday morn and I'll mic some of my .410's
> 
> Jbird, GT sited Cousins as having never split the back end ....
> 
> Gene, i'll go down to the shop .....


Bob,

I will be in Salem until about11:00 am. I live half my time there and half in Albany. Wife and daughter have an apartment close to her work and daughter's school. Chemeketa!

They let me visit once in a while.:wink: :darkbeer:


----------



## Bob_Looney (Nov 17, 2003)

hang on gene

J, you and I are on the same page, I was joking about the pins working.

gene:

for a .410 x10
shank .500 long, .1268-.1274 dia. (1/2 thou out of round)
collar .050 long x .1785 dia
pin portion, .250 long x .1265-.1270 dia 
there is a roughly 45 deg chamfer after the pin dimensions.
pin end with chamfer is .317 long.


----------



## Oldpro (May 22, 2002)

*Insert length!*



I BOW 2 said:


> We can tell you from first hand experiemce that you won't destroy a Ti pin when hit directly!...... But your ACE's will not be around to do the same bragging. The material wall thickness of the ACE is just to thin and fragile to use a "non-flexible" material that has that short of a stem inserted into the shaft. If the stem could be made considerably longer like the ACE point insert is made then the shaft may last longer. But this will add a considerable amount of tail weight to your arrow. The old AFC style of nock insert that slipped over the outside of the shaft has the most to offer in the future of insert development. But the taper diameter variablity when the shaft is cut is the big problem with that.  Ken


I am lengthening the insert some. I believe it will be enough. The weight with a pin nock is 18 grains. Time will tell.


----------



## Oldpro (May 22, 2002)

*Thanks Bob!*



Bob_Looney said:
 

> hang on gene
> 
> J, you and I are on the same page, I was joking about the pins working.
> 
> ...


Thanks,

That will give me something to work with. I will reduce the collar to about .030.


----------



## Jbird (May 21, 2002)

*Titanium Pins*

Gene,
Would making the the end of the pin a very sharp point make a direct hit almost impossible? Seems like with the proper design that the worst you would lose would be a nock.

Also, are you considering making the pins for Cartel Triples?

Thanks,
Jay


----------



## Oldpro (May 22, 2002)

*Quite pointy!*



Jbird said:


> Gene,
> Would making the the end of the pin a very sharp point make a direct hit almost impossible? Seems like with the proper design that the worst you would lose would be a nock.
> 
> Also, are you considering making the pins for Cartel Triples?
> ...


Jay,

The pin is pretty sharp but not dangerous. Compare this pic to an aluminum one. I believe that the little flat spot on the aluminum ones is part of the problem. It gives the point of the other arrow someplace to push.


----------



## Oldpro (May 22, 2002)

*X-10 Pin*

Bob,

Good news! The X-10 pin in Titanium is 12 grains. That is an increase of only 4 grains over the aluminum one.:teeth:


----------



## Nino (Jul 9, 2002)

I am using the Magnock Ti pins in my ACE's and have not destroyed the rear end of one yet since switching to these over a year and a half ago. I break probably at least 3-6 nocks a week on average. I don't care for G-nocks much, when I used them in my ACE's I detroyed about 9 out of my dz. in a matter of weeks. ACE break off points are not very sharp and a hit to the sharp point on the magnock pin or Gene's Pin will deflect it enough away from the flat wall. I don't think a over fit cup would be a better desighn. Just my .02
Not saying your wrong J-bird just another point of view that's all.
My pin looks like this minus the wire weight. I am glad to see Gene is going to make these pins and offer the world another choice. I am not saying there is anything wrong with the Magnock Ti Pin. Just won't hurt to have another choice available that's all.


----------



## Detemeat (Oct 1, 2002)

Well...it was not the nock itself that was hitting but the Ti insert. Picture below to explain...


----------



## Bob_Looney (Nov 17, 2003)

I never hit the shoulder of my pins when the shafts split but all the pins had grooves in the pin portion from the arrow point trying to robin hood it. Like the old x7 swedges used to do.


----------



## aktionfigure007 (Apr 11, 2004)

*CXLs*

Gene, I voted for OTHER.

I would really like to see a better pin nock designed for the CXL's. I have been using the CX pin nock inserts that they make for the CXL's for about two years now. They have probably saved me 3 dozen arrows in that time, but I really dislike the design of the CX nocks that fit onto the pins so I have been filing the diameter of the pin down slightly and using the Carbon Tech McKinney nocks on the back of them. The McKinney nocks just seem to have the best string fit. This combination shoots great and weighs very little, but since the pin on the CX pin nock insert is not long eough, it doesn't take a direct hit to break a nock. I go through a lot of nocks. What I would really like to see happen is for somebody to come out with a pin nock that fits into a CXL2, and has a pin that will fit the McKinney nock (or one of the others with the same hole size....e.g. ACE or GT). This would be the perfect combination, and I would be willing to pay for it. Your titanium pins sound like the ticket! 

I've actually considered going to a retired mechinist I know and asking him what it would cost to produce a better CXL nock. I shoot CXLs for 3D and field, they are by far the finest arrow I have found (with the possible exception of the Maximas, but I like a fatter arrow) but I think the pin nock/insert design for them could be greatly improved.

I also think you might find a broader market for the CXL pin nock inserts. More people can afford to shoot CXL2's than ACE's. I think the only reason the factory CXL pin nocks did not do so well was because they were poorly designed. The factory design is big, heavy, and has an overly aggressive string fit.


----------



## Oldpro (May 22, 2002)

*They are ordered!*

Based on the responses to the poll, I have placed my initial order for Titanium pins. The pins I ordered will fit ACE, X-10, ACC, And some Navigator sizes. :thumbs_up

I expect to be able to ship product the first week in June. Price is still looking like $27.00 for 6. I hope I can stay there as the price of Ti is raising monthly.

For dealer pricing contact me at [email protected]

Time will tell.


----------



## Meleagris1 (Jan 8, 2003)

Oldpro said:


> Based on the responses to the poll, I have placed my initial order for Titanium pins. The pins I ordered will fit ACE, X-10, ACC, And some Navigator sizes. :thumbs_up
> 
> I expect to be able to ship product the first week in June. Price is still looking like $27.00 for 6. I hope I can stay there as the price of Ti is raising monthly.
> 
> ...


Awesome!


----------



## doug timbs (Jul 13, 2004)

I've been waiting for someone to make these, it'll be interesting to see how they perform.
What grade of titanium are you using?

Doug


----------



## Jig (Oct 2, 2002)

Meleagris1 said:


> Gene, put me down for Navigators in size 480. :darkbeer:


me too


----------



## Oldpro (May 22, 2002)

*Titanium!*

Doug,

I am using Ti 6% aluminum, 4% Vanadium. (ASTM B376 grade C5) To my knowledge, one of the toughest alloys. Also one of the most expensive. :embara:


----------



## Rack Tracker (Jul 8, 2005)

For the Carbon tech line of arrows. Those Bohning signature nocks don't holdup too well in the Flint Round.....

By the way, I enjoyed Shooting at Redding a couple targets behind you and Pick!


----------



## Oldpro (May 22, 2002)

*Arrow sizes!*

Hey folks,

Thanks for all the input! Unfortunately I will not be able to produce small quantities of pins for special sizes. I do not have information on all the arrow sizes out there. However, if some of you could send me a small piece of shaft and a description of the size and brand, I would be happy to keep those sizes in mind and as soon as I get the proper amount of response I could have some made.

Right now that would include Navigator 480, 430, and 540. Any Carbon Tech sizes, and possibly GT Series 22 to name a few.

send to:
Gene Lueck
34445 Knox Butte Rd E
Albany, OR 97322

Thanks!


----------



## Oldpro (May 22, 2002)

*Shipping June 14!*

I will have pins for X-10, ACE, ACC by June 14 and I already have the .246" insert pins in stock.

I am not sure of how many of each size to produce so the quantities might be a bit low. To assure that you will get some of the first batch. It might be wise to order now at www.archwerytech.com Your call! If they sell fast I will order more immediately, but that will put us into July sometime.


----------



## Jbird (May 21, 2002)

*Titanium Pins*

I recently purchased Cartel Triples and the only pin readily available at the time was the Magnock Ti Pins which I ordered. Last night while shooting 30 yards I shot 4 nocks off and destroyed the back end of one of the shafts. The pins of course were not hurt at all but the shaft split from the impact on the flat surface of the Ti pin. I don't like the design of this pin at all. It is too short and has a scooped out area for lead wire to be wrapped for adding weight to the nock end of the arrow which I don't use. The end result is that the pin has hardly any area for glue and poor support for the shaft. From looking at the arrow I think this contributed to the pin being knocked to the side at an angle splitting the shaft. I firmly believe if the pin had a sloped shoulder instead of a flat one and if the pin was at least a half inch long with straight sides for plenty of support, the shaft would have survived undamaged. As soon as Gene gets his pins available to fit the Triples, I will be changing mine out.
Jbird


----------



## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

*Gene's website is www.archerytech.com*



Oldpro said:


> I will have pins for X-10, ACE, ACC by June 14 and I already have the .246" insert pins in stock.
> 
> I am not sure of how many of each size to produce so the quantities might be a bit low. To assure that you will get some of the first batch. It might be wise to order now at www.archwerytech.com Your call! If they sell fast I will order more immediately, but that will put us into July sometime.


Oldpro's website is actually
www.archerytech.com

You will find the Ti pins under "new products".


----------



## Oldpro (May 22, 2002)

*Hammered!*

Here is the results of a very hard hit! I shot the NW Sectional last weekend and one of the guys in my group hammered one of my nocks. This hit was at 70 yards with an ACE. The testing results are out! This DID NOT BEND THE PIN! nor blow out the side of the shaft.

I had to grind off the flashing, put the arrow in my lathe, put a dial indicator on the pin and there was NO runout. Then I put a nock on over the damaged pin and the arrow shot right in the group at 40 yards.:thumbs_up


----------



## Brown Hornet (Aug 8, 2002)

Gene,

I really like the sleeve idea, It was always a pain to try and get a Ti pin into a uni bushing. Which pins have the raised collar? In one of the pics on your website there are 3 pins and only one has the collar? Have you come up with a pin for the 480 or 430 Navigator yet?


----------



## palmer (Sep 23, 2003)

Now, if you can just make some pins that have about half the press fit of the standard Easton nock to pin fit, we'd be in business. I'm tired of replacing nocks. Wee little stress cracks that start at the end of the bore for the pin. The solid colors do it worse, but I have problems with the flo blues as well. I honestly think alot of people are shooting them and don't know it. Look hard enough and you'll find some. Who knows, they may be fine forever, but I'm not confident enough to keep shooting them when I see even a hint of a hairline crack in a nock. Fit on the string or pin doesn't seem to change but they are in fact cracked.


----------



## Brown Hornet (Aug 8, 2002)

Well Easton isn't the only one that makes pin nocks.......


----------



## palmer (Sep 23, 2003)

Have you had good luck with others? BIG brand, etc?


----------



## Brown Hornet (Aug 8, 2002)

I didn't have a problem with GT nocks. But I didn't shoot them that long. The McKinney nocks are fine, they just don't fit everyones pins that well. I however use Magnocks and have never had a problem with their nocks. I am still surprised that Beiter never came out with a pin nock. I know it would make alot of people very happy if they did. 

Maybe someone should start a poll or something and then send them the link in an email.


----------



## Oldpro (May 22, 2002)

*Pins!*

Hornet,

I have not had enough call for the 430 and 480 pins. Maybe later. Sorry!:embara: 

palmer,

My Ti pins are a tiny looser fit that the aluminum pins. I still break a few but they done seem to break or crack just from shooting.


----------



## Brown Hornet (Aug 8, 2002)

Brown Hornet said:


> Which pins have the raised collar? In one of the pics on your website there are 3 pins and only one has the collar?



Well...I think you missed this one. :wink:


----------



## Oldpro (May 22, 2002)

*The collar!*

On the home page the one in the middle is for a Gold Tip. It has a 246" insert and a Ti screw in pin. This will fit any arrow that takes a super nock. The others two are for ACE and X-10s.


----------

