# Adjusting flipper rest??? Getting seasick.



## tothepoint (Dec 22, 2006)

How may lbs is the bow set at? and are you shooting bare shafts at 10-12 yards? what tuning method are you using that's telling you the arrow is fishtailing.


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## Diz (Aug 31, 2006)

tothepoint said:


> How may lbs is the bow set at? and are you shooting bare shafts at 10-12 yards? what tuning method are you using that's telling you the arrow is fishtailing.


55lbs. No I haven't tried bare shaft. Still somewhat new to this. I can see the arrow fishtailing back and forth as it flies. Maybe that's wrong? I just got my bow together and trying to set it all up, so I'm lacking in tuning skills. Even though I've read alot on AT, I didn't know how much fingers plays into the equaition. I've been shooting from about 10 yards.


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## Unclegus (May 27, 2003)

I'd check for interference (clearance) first. espescially on a shoot thru... Take one of your arrows with the plastic fletch and coat the fletch end of it with either baby powder or foot powder and shoot it and see if there are any marks on the shaft or fletching.


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## tothepoint (Dec 22, 2006)

The arrow you have may be to soft a spine for the cams you're shooting. 

Before you worry about fishtail you need to tune for porpoising (up and down) Start by stripping the fletches off 1 or 2 of the 2115 and 2117 and try shooting them each at the target then shoot 2 fletched arrows at the target, if bare shafts are going low of fletched move the knock point on your string down. go with an adjustment of about 1/8 inch at a time until the fletched and bare shafts are hitting the target on the same vertical level. 

Now you can work on fishtailing. If the bare shafts continously shoot to the right of the fletched shafts move the flipper rest out from the riser. move the flipper about an 1/8 of an inch at a time and repeat the process. If the bare shafts continue to hit right of the fletched the shafts are to soft. If the go left they're to stiff. 

Report back and let us know the out come.


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## jerrytee (Feb 5, 2005)

Down load and read the Easton tuning guide you will find it on the downloads page of their web site.Follow that and if you get into trouble come back and post your problem. To get the bearshafts and the fletched shafts landing in the same place it may be necessary to alter the weight of the bow slightly so don't be set on a particular poundage.


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## Diz (Aug 31, 2006)

Thanks guys, I'll try all your suggestions.:thumbs_up


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## tothepoint (Dec 22, 2006)

While I absolutely agree with jerrytee about changing bow weights to make adjustments to get fletched and bare shafts to the impact the same point. I recommend you don't (crank weights up or down) until after you've achieved the best possible arrow flight through knock point and rest adjustments. 

IMO weight changes should be part of fine tuning, not initial setup. You'll find the Easton tuning guide says the same thing.... Tuning is a step by step process. If you try and skip a step or combine steps you'll just complicate thing for yourself.

Jerrytee is just trying to let you know other things can be done to the bow to achieve good arrow flight.

Go through the steps and let us know the outcome.


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## jerrytee (Feb 5, 2005)

Right I should have made that more clear. I forget some times that all bows are not as easy to change the draw weight on as my Oneida. I can trim a couple of pounds off the peak draw weight and move the point of impact of a bear shaft across the target a couple of inches without any problems.


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## Bowfishen Sully (Jun 2, 2005)

A few questions 

First I'm assuming that you have checked the till and timing of the bow ? 

Are you paper tuning ? if so which direction is the rip ? 

Are you shooting plastic ?


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## shadowhunter (Oct 12, 2003)

*arrows are too light*

I'm in the same ballpark and like 2216, 2219, 2413 and 350 carbon express. As a finger shooter you will get some fishtailing anyway. I also use a NAP flipper and spread some toothpaste on the side plate, then shoot an arrow to see where there might be some fletch contact. The best bet is to put the center of your arrow just to the outside a 'hair' to get the archers paradox effect.


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## Boly (Dec 6, 2006)

Try checking your cables for vane clearance as they pass by. I have seen that before.


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## Diz (Aug 31, 2006)

Bowfishen Sully said:


> A few questions
> 
> First I'm assuming that you have checked the till and timing of the bow ?
> 
> ...



Timings good, tiller is even, haven't got to paper yet, and shooting plastic. I do have a couple of shafts with feathers. They do fly different than the ones with plastic. I have wide axles so I don't think I'm getting contact with the cables, but I'll check it. I guess I didn't realize that there is going to be some fishtailing just because of shooting with fingers. Also, are the Nitrous cams going to be more difficult to tune to fingers? I just have a hard time even wanting to pick up a release. I just doesn't feel right.


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## Bowfishen Sully (Jun 2, 2005)

My personal experience has bee that FIRST I have always had problems with vains and flipper style rest , I'm not saying that they can't be made to shoot but that I never figured out how to do it ! This is why I shoot a HUNTMASTER 2000 so I can shoot high profile vains and get complete fletch clearance.


Second I've not ever owned a bow that I doesn't tune to shoot bullet holes in paper , NOW I am not saying I am some super shot just that I spent lots of time finding the right combinations to work . ( Of course owning a shop didn't hurt having everything right there to experiment with :wink: ) You don't have to settle for sloppy arrow flight if you don't want it !


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## Karoojager (Dec 20, 2005)

Try to tune you bow at the Vic Berger method. Since I tune my bow and arrow at this metod my successes grows up.


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## aussiearcher (May 22, 2002)

Try rotating the flipper head up so the arrow is only contacting on the very top portion. You will need to move you nock point to do this.

How are you releasing the arrow...three under, two under, splits, etc..all these different styles require a complete different tune-up proceedure.

I am a little confused as to the point you made about the arrow still appearing *"1/8 to 3/16" outside the string center"*...don't quite get the picture 

Any chance you can send a photo of the set-up....focusing on the centershot, from behind.

I do caution you about bareshafting in the first instance, as a "not so good" release can have you pulling your hair out....and will fold arrows in half.

Another point which is worthy of mentioning....TORQUE...how are you holding the riser?
If you are gripping the riser, in any way at all, you will apply torque. This torque will screw the riser around and completely alter your "centershot" alignment..Upon release, the bow will kick back to the more desired line. 

This in itself will cause you enormous stress in your tuning application. BTW..torque can also cause the cables to wack the arrow as it passes throught them...opening up a whole new can of worms.

You have come to the right place to get some help....keep firing the questions

Afterall _..."archery IS a a simple two step proceedure"_ (Lary Wise)

Step one..._shoot an arrow into the desired target_.
Step two... _repeat step one:wink:_


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## tothepoint (Dec 22, 2006)

Caracal may I wasn't pay attention in archery class, what is the Vic Berger method.


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## jerrytee (Feb 5, 2005)

aussiearcher said:


> Try rotating the flipper head up so the arrow is only contacting on the very top portion. You will need to move you nock point to do this.
> 
> How are you releasing the arrow...three under, two under, splits, etc..all these different styles require a complete different tune-up proceedure.
> 
> ...


There is a good picture and explanation in the Easton tuning guide. Download it off their web site


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## tothepoint (Dec 22, 2006)

You know the one question I didn't ask earlier is how much let-off is the bow set at right now. If you're trying to shoot a finger bow at 80% let-off you may never get the fistailing out of your arrow. The reason is there isn't enough string pressure so instead of the string pushing your fingers out of the way when you release. Instead the undertensioned string is going the long way around your fingers and is significantly outboard when it hit the shelf and fires. This is a very common problem experienced by just about every release shooter that tries to convert to fingers. 90% of finger shooters out there (including myself) are not capable of shooting a clean arrow at 80% let-off. So you might want to put the bow on a scale and see how much let-off you have.


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## Diz (Aug 31, 2006)

aussiearcher said:


> Try rotating the flipper head up so the arrow is only contacting on the very top portion. You will need to move you nock point to do this.
> 
> How are you releasing the arrow...three under, two under, splits, etc..all these different styles require a complete different tune-up proceedure.
> 
> ...



I started releasing 1 over 2 under but have switched to 1 over 1 under. It feels like I get a cleaner release. On the "1/8 to 3/16" outside string center" , as you're looking straight down the arrow, the arrow sits on the rest to the left of the verticle line of the shooting string by 1/8 to 3/16" and the rest is sucked up tight against the riser. As for how I'm holding the bow, it just cradles in my hand, almost zero finger pressure on the grip. It's also set at 65% letoff.

I'm wondering if I'm fighting a losing battle trying to shoot vanes with a flipper. It sounds like feathers would perform better with a flipper and if I want to stay with vanes I need to go to a drop away from what I gather, or did I miss something? :BangHead: As for pulling my hair out.....too late, most of it's gone already, but not from this problem. You see, I'm married and have 2 boys. What hair I have left is going grey.:set1_rolf2:

I would post a pic, but I smoked something in my digital camera and haven't got it repaced yet.


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## shadowhunter (Oct 12, 2003)

*Keep trying*

I'm not familiar with your bow but I don't think the rest should be tight to the riser. Don't gauge the center shot by your string but with a center shot gauge or ask the manufacturer where the center of your bow should be relative to the distance from the riser. Yes, feathers are better with a flipper,more forgiving in sliding past the wire. In time the bottom feather will show wear but no biggie. Be patient,the only way to feel the shot is with fingers, forever.


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## Diz (Aug 31, 2006)

shadowhunter said:


> I'm not familiar with your bow but I don't think the rest should be tight to the riser. Don't gauge the center shot by your string but with a center shot gauge or ask the manufacturer where the center of your bow should be relative to the distance from the riser. Yes, feathers are better with a flipper,more forgiving in sliding past the wire. In time the bottom feather will show wear but no biggie. Be patient,the only way to feel the shot is with fingers, forever.


The problem with asking the manufacturer is, they never made this bow with Nitrous cams. It's a retrofit, but the riser is the same length as the Scepter, and the shooting string is exactly centered down the limbs. 

I'll follow everyone's suggestions and see if I can get it dialed in. I'm sure there's a combination that works, I've just got to find it.

Thanks everyone.


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## Robert58 (Oct 5, 2002)

*Center Shot*

I don't think you have your arrow out far enough. It took me for ever to move it out enough. I don't have any Finger shooters close to me to get information from. I finally set my center shot to where the whole tip of my arrow is just outside of my string shen I set my string in the center of my riser(on my Firecat) and look down my arrow from behind.

I shoot 4" feathers and 3" vanes. I have shot 4" vanes. When you get the center shot right, all of them will shoot to the same place at 20 yds.

You have not told us what the spine is, on your carbon arrows. I shoot Easton C2 Epic 400. Cougar Elite with Fury cams, 50 lbs, 26" AMO draw lenght. 26" arrow. With a 28" draw or longer you may need 300's.

Also, I gave up on any kind of plunger rest a long time ago. I shoot a Cavalier Freeflyte with stiff side arm, Martin Stinger rest with sidewinder attachment with stiff blades, and now I have (for last 8 months) a Golden key Super Star with stiff blades. If your spring tension on the rest is to weak you will councel out your center shot setting.


Robert


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## aussiearcher (May 22, 2002)

Diz said:


> On the "1/8 to 3/16" outside string center" , as you're looking straight down the arrow, the arrow sits on the rest to the left of the verticle line of the shooting string by 1/8 to 3/16" and the rest is sucked up tight against the riser. As for how I'm holding the bow, it just cradles in my hand, almost zero finger pressure on the grip. It's also set at 65% letoff.


I would be setting the rest a lot further out to be started with....you only want a bit of arrow sticking out....back to the vanes.....depends on the size..I have been shooting 1.6's for years...lift the rest as I described earlier...and you should be good to go.


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## mitchell (Mar 5, 2005)

This might be a no brainer to most of you guys, but I don't think you can center the string in the grip, when setting the centershot. I use limb guages to get the center of the limbs and then put the point barely outside cetershot for a starting point.

It works for recurves. I assume it works for compounds.


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## Bowfishen Sully (Jun 2, 2005)

Cams can be shimmed off to one side of the limb forks , string tracks are usually set to one side of the cams , so going center of the limbs for center shot on a compound is not the way to get center shot. 

String track to string track on compounds


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## mitchell (Mar 5, 2005)

Sully,

How should I find the centershot? I have a Conquest. I'm pretty sure its not the center of the grip.

Trying to learn here. Thanks.


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## luckyhit (Dec 8, 2006)

*Centerline of bow*

There may be a better way, but his has never let me down

I have always lined up the string with the center of the throat on the grip. That should be the center of the bow. If it isn't, you've got some interesting geometry there.

I just line up the rest so the arrow is dead center on the string. Then you know that your rest is just a bit too close to the riser. Start shooting and move it out until the arrows tunes and flies the way you want it to.


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## mitchell (Mar 5, 2005)

If I pull a string from the center of the limb forks, will that give me the exact centershot? If so, I can mark the grip or riser or something.

Thankx


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## shadowhunter (Oct 12, 2003)

*Nitrous cams*

Does the string stay in the middle of the cam during its release cycle or just at rest? What looks like center may not remain center during the shot.


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## Bowfishen Sully (Jun 2, 2005)

mitchell

Center shot on Single cam bows are alittle tricky because the *Idler Wheel *places the string center of the limb forks BUT the cams ( at least in the case of Matherws bows ) are set off the the left of center ( in right handed bows ) so the string track is actully at a slight angle the the long axis of the bow. 

Remember this ( and this is to answer shadowhunters question also ) EVEN IF you find exact center shot ( arrow at rest ) this is only a starting point. With finger shooting string deflection will comes into play ( the string oscillating on a vertical plain ) This is why once your rest is set up and you are getting good arrow flite you should do a walk back tune to do your final center shot adjustment.

In short there will be a lot of guessing on your initinal set up ! You can use some guidelines to get started but only shooting your bow will tell you where you need to adjust !


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