# Revisiting Shoulder Position



## Reverend (Nov 2, 2004)

Alright, I'm going to put this out there for you in the know. Several months ago I attended a GRIV seminar where he advised me to increase my DL by 1 1/2 inches! Yes. Yikes. He felt I was too scrunched up and that my short DL was causing my sight picture to bob up and down and dip. He was correct because was what was happening. Initially I resisted and argued, because the DL I had was set over 15 years ago by Vic Wunderle. Go figure. Well after coming to my senses, I decided to follow his instructions. After all he knows much more than me.  ... and there may be something to say about the trend to go longer on the DL than it was several years ago, where most were advocating shorter DLs. 

Fast forward 2 months. The new DL feels fine, but now my sight picture is all over the place. In my estimation, it's because I cannot settle on a correct front shoulder position. Since my sight is now moving in all directions: circular, sideways figure 8, an inverted "U" pattern, I keep shifting the shoulder to find that steadiest hold. So I'll try position A, compare it with position B, and then revert to my old position C, all to no avail. I've consciously lowered my shoulder, moved my shoulder blade towards my spine, left the shoulder in a natural position, brought the shoulder in, then out... with all those adjustments I get the same results. 

Part of me is telling me to pick a style and stick with it. But the other part is telling me to find a correct form and do that, since for all practical purposes I'm starting from scratch. So my question for the CTAF (Competition Target Archery Forum) gang is which, if any, is the preferred shoulder setting when shooting a compound? Do you make any adjustments to the front shoulder once you're at the full draw position. In other words, when you get to full draw, do you now consciously lower it, or move it in, down, back, etc.? Or leave it alone? lol

Maybe it's just old age?


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## RCR_III (Mar 19, 2011)

Personally I prefer finding a stance that gives you a natural point of aim to eliminate drift. Meaning once you're on target you're hips aren't pulling your shoulders off target. 

This seems to work best for the majority of shooters. It'll normally get you closer to Fig. B, but it depends on the person. 

When you're changing your stance and the way it opens or closes the shoulder's angle, you're changing the draw length fitment a good deal. 

It's best to find the stance you need first, then set the draw length second. That's another reason I like the drift method of setting the stance because it gives you your starting point and then you can get draw length perfect after that, then loop length perfect after that as well. 

Starting with this foot position here, where the front foot's big toe is lining up with the base of the back foot's big toe.








What you'll need to do is draw, anchor, and center your pin/dot on the target then close your eyes for 5 seconds. Open them afterwards and see where you're at. Then you can move the feet together to open or close the hips to the target to center yourself up. 

I've got a computer program I developed that gives perfect draw length and loop lengths within 1/8 inch if you find yourself in a condition you want to use it. You can post a full draw photo here and I'll put it into the program and reply back with how it came out and give you the measurement you need for draw length and then if you want the loop length, I'll just need one more photo after you've nailed in the draw length.


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## Bobmuley (Jan 14, 2004)

Remember the diagnostic patterns in the presentation? He roughly lengthened your draw length and you fine tune it based on the pattern. 

FWIW, all the above work. I could show you 300 shooters with any of the shoulder positions shown...but only you and your sight picture (and ultimately - score) will be able to tell which is best for you.


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## Reverend (Nov 2, 2004)

Robert, the stance in that pic is very close to my actual stance now... which I tested several years ago in the way you described. I suppose I can do it again. Also I'm reluctant making any DL adjustments right now since it is set where "the one and only GRIV" told me to set it. Make sense?


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## Reverend (Nov 2, 2004)

Bobmuley said:


> Remember the diagnostic patterns in the presentation? He roughly lengthened your draw length and you fine tune it based on the pattern.
> 
> FWIW, all the above work. I could show you 300 shooters with any of the shoulder positions shown...but *only you and your sight picture (and ultimately - score) will be able to tell which is best for you*.


And there is the problem Bob, I cannot tell which works best since all have about the same movement in the sight picture...


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## RCR_III (Mar 19, 2011)

Reverend said:


> Robert, the stance in that pic is very close to my actual stance now... which I tested several years ago in the way you described. I suppose I can do it again. Also I'm reluctant making any DL adjustments right now since it is set where "the one and only GRIV" told me to set it. Make sense?


I mean, if you're happy with what you're seeing it makes sense. If not, then change it up. I've seen GRIV work with a shooter and change his draw length multiple times after the initial recommendation based on shooter feedback. This was a shooter working directly with him over a course of time, which is something you miss only being at the seminar, but if you were to talk with him on what you're seeing and what's going on he'd make a recommendation based off that, a photo/video, and also on target grouping patterns. That's how he worked with the individual I mentioned previously.


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## Bobmuley (Jan 14, 2004)

Reverend said:


> And there is the problem Bob, I cannot tell which works best since all have about the same movement in the sight picture...


 If it were me...I'd pick something then so that I could get to something repeatable (even if its wrong - so you have a new starting point). 

Diagnosing change is easy: if it gets better keep going that way. If it gets worse, go back the other way.


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## RCR_III (Mar 19, 2011)

Dennis here's a photo I used when I was building my program that you may recognize, before my lines at least. 








His draw length, if he chose not to lean back, would be longer than what is ideal and cause a wavy pattern and be loose. The key to why this longer length works for him is in the lean that he's using, which is a by product of shifting center of gravity backwards to manage stabilizer weight. He's using his core muscles and area above the hip to support the bow arm/shoulder. 

Same as here, just without the lean.
 







There's so many ways to get different draw length settings, form make up, and bow set ups to work for you. You're just only getting part of the teaching from the seminar instead of the continued help you need to guide you through what you're experiencing and find what works best for you. Since you're on your own right now, you have to make these decisions by yourself. It just comes down to having the ability to be able to do so then.


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## lees (Feb 10, 2017)

I'm a "puller", so I use how much I have left in the back muscles to help guide me with DL. I'm not overly particular about where my actual alignment ends up (with respect to the figures above), only that a) I have plenty of expansion left in the back muscles to pull all the way through the shot and b) I'm not so short that I'm too far in the direction of alignment "C", which creates a lot of fatigue and lots of wiggling around too.

I can get into "B" but it's painful (limited movement in my neck) and I have to be too stretched out to get there. I can monkey with it a little bit by adjusting the D-loop length but usually it doesn't work for me. The symptoms are my head coming back and running out of gas right as I pull through the shot (bow starts wanting to go somewhere by itself). Or I have to really scrunch up to get into "B" with a shorter DL, which has its own problems. 

So I'm somewhere close to "A" just given my physical limitations. It's not perfect but I can pull through the shot and keep it on the gold with plenty of margin.

So that's how I DIY my DL anyway,

lee.


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## Bobmuley (Jan 14, 2004)

Reverend said:


> The new DL feels fine, but now my sight picture is all over the place. In my estimation, it's because I cannot settle on a correct front shoulder position. Since my sight is now moving in all directions: circular, sideways figure 8, an inverted "U" pattern, I keep shifting the shoulder to find that steadiest hold. So I'll try position A, compare it with position B, and then revert to my old position C, all to no avail. I've consciously lowered my shoulder, moved my shoulder blade towards my spine, left the shoulder in a natural position, brought the shoulder in, then out... with all those adjustments I get the same results.


I've been thinking about this one. If you're moving your shoulder all over the place and you have the same result...perhaps its not your shoulder position at all...I'd look elsewhere.

Sight picture all over the place with unrepeatable pattern (I've had that - mine was from my shoulder trying to protect/stabilize itself)...super hard bow hand?


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## lcaillo (Jan 5, 2014)

It really is hard to make a switch like that after many years of practicing a different way. I would stick with whatever you choose for a few months and see if you can get it to settle in. The figure A diagram is clearly biomechanically advantageous, but to get to the stable point can be a challenge if you have not done it before. I have been relearning to shoot with new form close to this and it has taken me 4 months just to get to where I am beginning to feel solid.


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## lees (Feb 10, 2017)

BTW, it's worth mentioning that not a lot of shooters are actually able to achieve alignment "B". So it's not just us old guys with stiff necks . At indoor nationals this year I was watching various shooters on the line, and the most common alignment I saw was mostly "A" with "C" being a close second. One or two of the recurves where very close to "B", IIRC. But virtually none of the compound folks were that far inside the bow that I could see....

lee.


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## Reverend (Nov 2, 2004)

lees said:


> BTW, it's worth mentioning that not a lot of shooters are actually able to achieve alignment "B". So it's not just us old guys with stiff necks . At indoor nationals this year I was watching various shooters on the line, and the most common alignment I saw was mostly "A" with "C" being a close second. One or two of the recurves where very close to "B", IIRC. But virtually none of the compound folks were that far inside the bow that I could see....
> 
> lee.


Funny you should post this, as I finished watching this year's World Archery matches in Shanghai. Virtually none of the compound shooters were using Fig. B. Hansen, Damsbo, Anderson, Wilde, Gellenthian, Lopez, etc. Nada. This prompted me to search further. Saw many matches: Vegas, Lancaster, Antalya, etc. I don't think I saw ANYONE in the compound division shooting with Fig. A. I saw the same thing you observed, most fell somewhere in between Fig. A and Fig. C. Go figure. LOL


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## Reverend (Nov 2, 2004)

Bobmuley said:


> I've been thinking about this one. If you're moving your shoulder all over the place and you have the same result...perhaps its not your shoulder position at all...I'd look elsewhere.
> 
> Sight picture all over the place with unrepeatable pattern (I've had that - mine was from my shoulder trying to protect/stabilize itself)...super hard bow hand?



Perhaps. I'm doing some additional testing. It might be tension in the hands, arms and shoulders?


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## lcaillo (Jan 5, 2014)

It is not easy to find that spot where things line up and the shot can feel much more effortless. Once you do, it takes time to retrain yourself to go there, months in my experience. But it can take months of trying to finally get it. There is a set of angles for everyone that gives you the most support for the shot and requires the least effort to complete it, and it might not be exactly what anyone describes in any diagram. Most likely, because of the basic biomechanical characteristics we share in our anatomy, it will be close to B.


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## RCR_III (Mar 19, 2011)

Reverend said:


> Perhaps. I'm doing some additional testing. It might be tension in the hands, arms and shoulders?


How's things going? Any breakthroughs yet?


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## 12point_typical (Feb 3, 2016)

Awesome thread! Great info


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## Reverend (Nov 2, 2004)

RCR_III said:


> How's things going? Any breakthroughs yet?


Hey Robert. Thanks for the follow-up. I've been out of town so unable to shoot for the last week ++. Last time I made a little progress. I used chbrunson's method and found the dot (circle reticle) holding steadier, but still inconsistent from shot to shot. The good holds were hard to duplicate, and my shoulder position varied. No one particular shoulder position produced a steadier hold... so I'm still playing with it.


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## RCR_III (Mar 19, 2011)

Reverend said:


> Hey Robert. Thanks for the follow-up. I've been out of town so unable to shoot for the last week ++.  Last time I made a little progress. I used chbrunson's method and found the dot (circle reticle) holding steadier, but still inconsistent from shot to shot. The good holds were hard to duplicate, and my shoulder position varied. No one particular shoulder position produced a steadier hold... so I'm still playing with it.


Are you meaning the shoulder position varied left and right or in and out?


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## Reverend (Nov 2, 2004)

RCR_III said:


> Are you meaning the shoulder position varied left and right or in and out?


I've tried most of those ways: shoulder closer to bow, further away from bow, low and back, just low, etc...


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