# About nock points and traditional archery.



## WindWalker (Jan 23, 2005)

I will bypass the subject of string nock vs. no string nock, which I consider to be a foolish method (no nock) because it makes no sense at all, and comment on........

1.


> _I have watched people shoot with nock points and they seem to nock slower understandably, they have their eyes on the nock to make sure it is in just the right spot.
> _


I don't know about others, but I can nock quite fast if need be and do so without ever having to look at the string or the nock, and the arrow is going to be in the right spot because the string nocks(s) assure it is.


2.


> how could a nock point always be constant when the string is unstrung and strung back up? It always untwists a little, and needs twisted back up.


Unless you are changing strings or adjusting brace height, when you unstring a bow you don't remove the string from the bow. Hence, the twist remains the same and the nock height remains the same.

3.


> after a bow being strung for a long time it usually stretches a little as well, so the nock point can never be constant without the need of tedious non stop tuning.


High performance string barely creeps and Dacron quickly settles down after being shot in. If the string creeps, the brace height lowers. Bring the brace back to your noted brace height and the nock height generally follows. It's not that tedious and the need does not go on forever.

A string nock is a critical tuning component, performing more duties than just a place to butt your arrow to. I will be surprised if you get many takers of your proposed method.


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## voodoofire1 (Jan 24, 2006)

I sure would have loved to hear that conversation.......I shoot without nock points all the time when testing bows, but as a responsible hunter who practices for that one perfect shot, I feel it's my responsibility to the animal to take it's life as quickly, cleanly and as humane as possible......Rate of fire means nothing to me in those situations, but I do see where it would have benefits in mounted archery, shooting exhibitions and such things like that......sounds like you have it all figured out, but for me, I'm a hunter, although 99% of my shooting is done at targets, I practice to perfect my skill, and also to feel extremely comfortable in execution of the shot when the time comes....and being comfortable to me means doing everything I can possibly do to eliminate variables on my end, animals give me enough of those just being themselves........ a nocking point gives me one less thing to think about, I know exactly where it is, because after my string is shot in It very seldom moves and if it's starts, I know I may have a problem or it may just be time for a new string........


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## grantmac (May 31, 2007)

I shoot a top and bottom nock to ensure the arrow doesn't slide on the serving at all (Bieter has high-speed videos of this happening).
You also cannot shoot 3-under without a nock point.

I've done preliminary tuning of my primitive bows without a nock point but they are generally shot split fingered. Once I'm happy with my hand position then a bowyers mark is put on the bow and a nock tied onto the string.

If you are going to get accurate then you need to eliminate the variables as much as possible, a repeatable nocking point and hand/rest position is critical.

-Grant


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## rattus58 (Jul 9, 2007)

grantmac said:


> I shoot a top and bottom nock to ensure the arrow doesn't slide on the serving at all (Bieter has high-speed videos of this happening).
> You also cannot shoot 3-under without a nock point.
> 
> I've done preliminary tuning of my primitive bows without a nock point but they are generally shot split fingered. Once I'm happy with my hand position then a bowyers mark is put on the bow and a nock tied onto the string.
> ...


I agree with this and use dental floss for mine... once set... glue it.


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## ArrowFetcher (Jun 21, 2011)

I have shot literally tens of thousands of shots without nock points, up to six hours a day sometimes. 99% of the time I was using a self bow, and a nock point on a self bow is pointless, but I have also shot one of my recurves a couple thousand times maybe, and my group doesn't suffer without nock points. The sweet spot is always there nock point or not, if you take the nock point off and get plenty of practice you won't need one. My fiance for instance has only been shooting for a few months now and she prefers a shelved recurve, she never had a nock point, I guided her through the basics and she has learned the rest, she rarely ever has any arrow wobble now like she did in the beginning, she is probably doing better without a nock point than experienced archers could do without a nock point that is for sure, and her rate of fire exponentially increases. All I am saying, the correct spot to nock the arrow is there regardless of a nock point or not, if you practice finding it yourself you will no longer need any help finding it.


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## WindWalker (Jan 23, 2005)

> the correct spot to nock the arrow is there regardless of a nock point or not


.....and a nock makes the correct spot consistent.

As for acquiring a rapid rate of fire; if I am ever a party to storming a castle or stopping an advance of an army of Huns, I would consider eliminating the nock. :teeth:


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## grantmac (May 31, 2007)

ArrowFetcher said:


> I have shot literally tens of thousands of shots without nock points, up to six hours a day sometimes. 99% of the time I was using a self bow, and a nock point on a self bow is pointless, but I have also shot one of my recurves a couple thousand times maybe, and my group doesn't suffer without nock points. The sweet spot is always there nock point or not, if you take the nock point off and get plenty of practice you won't need one. My fiance for instance has only been shooting for a few months now and she prefers a shelved recurve, she never had a nock point, I guided her through the basics and she has learned the rest, she rarely ever has any arrow wobble now like she did in the beginning, she is probably doing better without a nock point than experienced archers could do without a nock point that is for sure, and her rate of fire exponentially increases. All I am saying, the correct spot to nock the arrow is there regardless of a nock point or not, if you practice finding it yourself you will no longer need any help finding it.


What is your average NFAA 300 score? Or FITA 18m score if you prefer?
Any 3D wins or other competitive accomplishments?
Range that you can keeps 5 arrows inside 8" everytime?

Just wondering.


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## ArrowFetcher (Jun 21, 2011)

Never been in any tournaments, at about 27 yards on a decent day my group is 12 to 22 inches (11 arrows, a large variable because there is usually one that strays a little off) approximately shooting at a rate of 12 shots per minute at least. I don't think that is bad for a self bow, at 20 yards it shrinks to like 12 or less, taking my time it shrinks considerably but I don't know the exact measurements so I will get back with you. I shoot a 72 inch (when strung) english longbow with no shelf, sites, or a nock point, 80#@ 28", and 95#@ 32". Videos coming to youtube soon under www.youtube.com/user/arrowfetcher. I will see how small my group taking my time with five arrows, I am usually a speedy shooter and concentrate on a decent group as well as decent rate of fire, a mixture between the two.

When shooting a shelved bow I suppose I can see the point in having a nock point, but even so I was able shoot almost perfectly never making any arrow wobble with a shelved recurve. The way I look at it, that nock point is always there even without the nock point, so why not learn to make it second nature to find it? I learned on a recurve but soon took a route to self bows, my accuracy did increase with self bows.


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## ArrowFetcher (Jun 21, 2011)

Ok, well it is just an average day, but I took some picures of some groups just now. These were all done with my longbow 80#@ 28". Different speeds and distances.

Here is my first one, 20 yards (18.29 meters), shooting rather slowly for me, about 8 shots a minute is my guess at rate of fire.










Next ones are shooting 20 yards at about 12 shots per minute, my average speed.


























Here is shooting 20 yards about 14 shots a minute if I had to take a guess at the rate of fire, about as fast as I feel like I can go.










These are at 27.6 yards (25.24 meters) shooting my standard 12 shots per minute.



















I have had better days, but I guess this is about average.


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## grantmac (May 31, 2007)

Your into the accuracy by volume approach, which is fine if thats what your in to. A floating nock point is probably not the limiting factor in your accuracy. I also don't think having a nocking point is a limiting factor in speed, as this video seems to demonstrate:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nVYyEg3N9nI

For most Traditional shooters the easiest way to gauge our performance relative to ourselves and others is an NFAA 300 around. A starting score is around 160 and would require you to keep most of your 60 arrows inside an 8" circle at 20yds. The pace is I believe 2 arrows per minute.
A middle of the road score is 200-220 and would require you to keep basically all of your arrows inside 6" with most inside 4".

Good shooters will keep all the arrows inside 5" with at least 75% inside 3, that will get you a score above 240.

-Grant


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## ArrowFetcher (Jun 21, 2011)

Made a video you can check out. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3MZbkMFHglw&feature=channel_video_title. 
That guy in that video was fast as hell, one of the fastest I have seen yet. I would like to know what poundage he is pulling though, if it is anything high he makes it look very easy. Shooting 2 arrows per minute is way too slow for me, you should be able to get a tighter group going that slow, but it just isn't for me. To each their own, some shoot just for accuracy, some shoot just for speed, I try to get a healthy balance between the two. I can shoot slower with a tighter group, I can also shoot even faster than 12 shots per minute but my group starts to suffer terribly with stray arrows going significantly off target. 
I still honestly think that good nocking placement doesn't require a nocking point, maybe I am wrong but with enough practice I can't see it being impossible to get just as good without the nock point.


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## J. Wesbrock (Dec 17, 2003)

Thanks for the photos. I think they demonstrate 1) the importance of a nocking point, and 2) the inverse relationship of accuracy and "spray and pray" shooting.


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## WindWalker (Jan 23, 2005)

Is this thread some kind of joke or another example of a kid's "Avatar" mentality trying to be accepted in the real world of archery.

The man shooting the rapid shots is the renown Hungarian bowyer, Lajos Kassai. You, my friend, are clumsy, slow, and a very poor shot at 20 yards. What is _your _point?


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## grantmac (May 31, 2007)

WindWalker said:


> Is this thread some kind of joke or another example of a kid's "Avatar" mentality trying to be accepted in the real world of archery.
> 
> You, my friend, are clumsy, slow, and a very poor shot at 20 yards. What is _your _point?


Thats rather harsh. We deal mostly with the hunting and 3D crowd on here with a few target archers thrown in. The OP is clearly exploring the more military aspects of traditional archery with a beginners weight warbow. Its a different sport and they usually don't play the 20yd game; the equipment isn't suited to it.
Most warbow guys shoot clout, roving marks or flight.

To the OP: If you want to do the warbow thing then have fun. I shoot a laminated 80# and Yew 85# pre-Tudor warbow on occasion and getting accurate isn't easy, different equipment for a different game. You might find the forums here: http://englishwarbow.proboards.com/index.cgi to be a bit more on your wavelength, although I believe they endorse nock use as well.

-Grant


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## WindWalker (Jan 23, 2005)

> Thats rather harsh.


Factual and to the point. Not going to sugar coat. He clearly is not exploring some type of "military" aspect of archery. He is promoting not using a string nock...period. And then puts up a video intended to back his recommendation and a visual endorsement of his expertise...and it's a "fail."

If you examine these videos closely, you will see that Kassai uses a served arrow stop....string nock.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2yorHswhzrU&feature=player_embedded#at=149

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NOpOqgotJZc&feature=grec_index


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## grantmac (May 31, 2007)

WindWalker said:


> Factual and to the point. Not going to sugar coat. He clearly is not exploring some type of "military" aspect of archery. He is promoting not using a string nock...period. And then puts up a video intended to back his recommendation and a visual endorsement of his expertise...and it's a "fail."
> 
> If you examine these videos closely, you will see that Kassai uses a served arrow stop....string nock.
> 
> ...


I agree with your video evidence completely. That was the gist I was getting to with my video of Kassai, who is a man of extreme talent. Not having a nock point isn't something that promotes either speed or accuracy, on that we agree.

What I was getting at was to not judge what another person wishes to emphasize as their focus for archery. He is clearly shooting a bow that is inside the category of English warbow, he's attempting to train towards increasing his rate of fire. He may lack the necessary room (or doesn't want to do that much walking) to do that training in the historical manner of shooting long distances but he is definitely shooting in a manner consistent with the history of warbow usage.
To get the most out of that bow he will have to shoot "inside" it which is not a technique that offers much from an accuracy perspective, but it is the way that warbows were used and would be the most historically accurate use for that bow.

-Grant


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## benofthehood (May 18, 2011)

... regarding the 'lack' of speed when using nock points ... you obviously have not seen John Schulz shoot .

Its great that you are acheiving the results you want . 

For the rest of us , nock points are quite 'helpful' :embara: ...


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## trapperDave (Mar 12, 2005)

thats called "poke n hope" shooting

I have a sawed off shotgun that holds a tighter pattern LOL


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## ArrowFetcher (Jun 21, 2011)

trapperDave said:


> thats called "poke n hope" shooting
> 
> I have a sawed off shotgun that holds a tighter pattern LOL



No, it is instinct shooting, as far as instinct shooting goes I know these are decent groups. So tell me exactly what you shoot with. Any sites?


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## rattus58 (Jul 9, 2007)

ArrowFetcher said:


> No, it is instinct shooting, as far as instinct shooting goes I know these are decent groups. So tell me exactly what you shoot with. Any sites?


Let me ask you honestly.... if you were a deer, how comfortable would you be with these groups taking them one at a time?


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## Charon (Apr 17, 2011)

I'm with Windwalker. So maybe this guy has some off the wall personal "goal" for him. To run around and advocate not using a nock point at a site that has a lot of newby traffic is truly doing a huge disservice to those newbies who actually aspire to be good at this. 
The OP is clearly using the "Sharp Shooter Effect" Shoot as many shots as possible, then count the 3 closest to the target and declare yourself a Sharp Shooter. Rate of fire has no relevance to target, 3-D, or hunting. The idea that it even has military relevance is questionable. 6 shots per second was perfectly adequate for the Medieval English Longbowmen. Having a nock point doesn't interfere with that, while improving accuracy.
The whole thing is so absurd that I am seriously questioning if the OP is "real."


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## ArrowFetcher (Jun 21, 2011)

As grantmac got on the money, this is an english longbow/warbow. It is not a shelved recurve with a nock point. The idea is a combination of speed and accuracy, the military wouldn't even allow you to join if you didn't shoot at least 12 shots per minute. Having a nock point and shelf does slow you down, with plenty of training you can and will get just as good without a shelf or nock point, which is why it was law to train 2 days out of the week in medieval england. People in the same field as me understand, I was hoping that the traditional archery section of this forum would have people who actually understand different forms of archery, everyone here seems to have a compound bow mindset, chances are they started with compounds? Shoot slow, and aim for some animals heart, seems to be all everyone cares about in archery anymore and it is a real shame. I try to respect all forms of archery, but it is hard not to call you guys out on your **** trying to prove something because you can get a tighter group while shooting with more aids and at a slow rate of fire. To put things in perspective, how would you feel if compound bow shooters were telling you off for your groups that were more spread than theirs? You are doing nothing different. As for shooting huge ranges which a longbow is really special at, from the way I understand it from someone who studies it and lives in the uk, it was law to practice at no less than 200 yards! I have done 150 yards and that was hard enough, but I could still manage to hit a standard sized 2x2 archery target once in a while. A good group was like 10 feet in diameter. 
The ones who I think should certainly ditch the nock point are especially ones who shoot self bows (a nock point is silly on a self bow), and people who want a mixture of speed and accuracy. I have seen people try to shoot fast and achieve worse groups than I can with their shelved recurve bows with nock points and they aren't even shooting as fast either because they have to make sure they are nocked just right because they never learned to do it instinctively, someone who worked at an archery store of all places. He needed to ditch the nocking point.


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## WindWalker (Jan 23, 2005)

> _Shoot slow, and aim for some animals heart, seems to be all everyone cares about in archery anymore and it is a real shame. I try to respect all forms of archery, but it is hard not to call you guys out on your **** trying to prove something because you can get a tighter group while shooting with more aids and at a slow rate of fire. _


This has gotten very, very, weird. :wacko:


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## rattus58 (Jul 9, 2007)

ArrowFetcher said:


> As grantmac got on the money, this is an english longbow/warbow. It is not a shelved recurve with a nock point. The idea is a combination of speed and accuracy, the military wouldn't even allow you to join if you didn't shoot at least 12 shots per minute. Having a nock point and shelf does slow you down, with plenty of training you can and will get just as good without a shelf or nock point, which is why it was law to train 2 days out of the week in medieval england. People in the same field as me understand, I was hoping that the traditional archery section of this forum would have people who actually understand different forms of archery, everyone here seems to have a compound bow mindset, chances are they started with compounds? Shoot slow, and aim for some animals heart, seems to be all everyone cares about in archery anymore and it is a real shame. I try to respect all forms of archery, but it is hard not to call you guys out on your **** trying to prove something because you can get a tighter group while shooting with more aids and at a slow rate of fire. To put things in perspective, how would you feel if compound bow shooters were telling you off for your groups that were more spread than theirs? You are doing nothing different. As for shooting huge ranges which a longbow is really special at, from the way I understand it from someone who studies it and lives in the uk, it was law to practice at no less than 200 yards! I have done 150 yards and that was hard enough, but I could still manage to hit a standard sized 2x2 archery target once in a while. A good group was like 10 feet in diameter.
> The ones who I think should certainly ditch the nock point are especially ones who shoot self bows (a nock point is silly on a self bow), and people who want a mixture of speed and accuracy. I have seen people try to shoot fast and achieve worse groups than I can with their shelved recurve bows with nock points and they aren't even shooting as fast either because they have to make sure they are nocked just right because they never learned to do it instinctively, someone who worked at an archery store of all places. He needed to ditch the nocking point.


What do I care of compounds? Accuracy, my friend is the only game in town.... Period... anything else is just play. If the center of the target is the goal, then anything else is failure. PERIOD. If you can hit a soda can at 8 arrows a minute and miss at 12, YOU'VE FAILED AT 12! Nothing else matters... Now, if you're shooting to send a rain of arrows down onto an advancing flank of the other guys... that would be your mission.... if you miss the apple, pray that it is over the top.


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## grantmac (May 31, 2007)

ArrowFetcher said:


> No, it is instinct shooting, as far as instinct shooting goes I know these are decent groups. So tell me exactly what you shoot with. Any sites?


Make no mistake, those are not particularly good groups for an instinctive archer or someone shooting with a selfbow. Adding a bowyers mark (or using the one already on your bow) plus adding a nocking point will definitely increase your accuracy and from what I've seen of your speed its not going to slow you down much.
There is no way to achieve consistency without removing as many variables as possible in the shot. Its in the same category as shooting matched arrows or drawing to the same anchor.

If you want to go down the warbow path then you need to commit completely to the concept and ditch any similarity to other traditional archery. Shoot inside the bow with your whole body. Half measures put you in a limbo between the styles where your skills make you questionably effective at either one.

-Grant

P.S. The warbow archers of yesteryear were most certainly not instinctive shooters. They shot very specific elevations that were directed by the officers directing their fire. The longbow was a mass weapon system with little effectiveness individually or at close range.


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## ArrowFetcher (Jun 21, 2011)

I can shoot tight groups as well, shooting slowly to get the tightest group possible just isn't my specialty. That first picture is what I consider slow, 8 shots per minute and at 20 yards. The group was like 8 inches. Want me to go slower?


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## ArrowFetcher (Jun 21, 2011)

grantmac said:


> Make no mistake, those are not particularly good groups for an instinctive archer or someone shooting with a selfbow. Adding a bowyers mark (or using the one already on your bow) plus adding a nocking point will definitely increase your accuracy and from what I've seen of your speed its not going to slow you down much.
> There is no way to achieve consistency without removing as many variables as possible in the shot. Its in the same category as shooting matched arrows or drawing to the same anchor.
> 
> If you want to go down the warbow path then you need to commit completely to the concept and ditch any similarity to other traditional archery. Shoot inside the bow with your whole body. Half measures put you in a limbo between the styles where your skills make you questionably effective at either one.
> ...


I already admitted it felt like a pretty average day. Look at my very first group, that was slowed down to 8 shots per minute.


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## benofthehood (May 18, 2011)

_*[Hey, just wanted to talk about nock points and traditional archery. I have been shooting for about seven years now, all traditional archery. I have never used nock points, I got into a small debate with someone at a local archery supply store and was told it was impossible to shoot a good group without nock points,*_


Arrowfletcher , I am not sure what your point is ? I don't think that you have proved otherwise as stated above .
With respect , your findings are not indicative of much aside from some grouing whilst 'speed ' shooting . It's not that an alien concept to many of us [ some of whom have a fair bit of experience in archery , including selfbows, warbows etc ] , i shoot my selfbows [ elb] and some of my shelfless glassbows off my bowhand and have been for 30 years ... I use a nock locater on the string because it enhances consistency and accuracy . To imply that it isn't "trad" is utterly false and shows a lack of historical knowledge

*
I have watched people shoot with nock points and they seem to nock slower understandably, they have their eyes on the nock to make sure it is in just the right spot.*


Have you heard Of Ron LeClair, Howard Hill or John Schulz ? I never look at my arrow when nocking an arrow .....

* I haven’t been in any archery clubs, but from what I have been able to tell watching others shoot in person, on the internet, tv , etc, they don’t use nock points. If you use one just take it off for a couple days or weeks, at first your group probably won’t be as good but I bet it will shrink just as good as it was with your nock pointB]


I think closer investigation of the archery you are watching on the internet and tv would reveal that most archers see the benefit of a nock point , regardless of bow or shooting style .

Mate, what about you try a knock point on your bowstring ... then you will be able to prove us otherwise . 

Ya gotta love warbows eh !
We have Steve Stratton [ ELB bowyer / archer etc ] coming out here to Oz shoot with us next week*


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## grantmac (May 31, 2007)

ArrowFetcher said:


> I can shoot tight groups as well, shooting slowly to get the tightest group possible just isn't my specialty. That first picture is what I consider slow, 8 shots per minute and at 20 yards. The group was like 8 inches. Want me to go slower?


My shot sequence takes about 15-20 seconds after I am finished estimating range. I find that when I am warmed-up I can keep arrows inside 8" back to 30-35 yds, but thats with a bow that has less than 5% wood content  . I don't have a hunting weight selfbow in good enough tune to take an accurate measurement but I'd say a consistent 6" at 20yds would be pretty easy to achieve, same shot sequence and form for both.

As for warbow shooting I think your putting the cart in front of the horse. In Tudor England archers were trained to the bow from adolescence. They learned to control the weight and achieve accuracy long before any speed requirement was introduced. If you observe any of the excellent videos of modern warbow archers during practice you will note that they concentrate most on controlling the shot and gauging correct elevation for their distance, this is the cornerstone of effectiveness for a warbow archer. Learn to shoot within the bow using your whole body and go from there.

-Grant


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## trapperDave (Mar 12, 2005)

ArrowFetcher said:


> No, it is instinct shooting, as far as instinct shooting goes I know these are decent groups. So tell me exactly what you shoot with. Any sites?


no. I am an instinctive shooter. Shooting instinctive is NO excuse for poor shooting. There is nothing decent about those groups. Heres some from 20-25 yds..


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## ArrowFetcher (Jun 21, 2011)

Nice shooting, but again, what was your rate of fire? Why do people here have trouble understanding there are different forms of archery? I can also shoot pretty tight groups taking it slow (pretty much as good as those and that is with a self bow), but it is not my preference. Also, I am pretty sure you didn't just go out with no warm up like I did, shoot a few groups, take pictures errors or no errors, and upload them. My youtube video for instance was a one shot johnny, there was no second takes.


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## trapperDave (Mar 12, 2005)

yeah, ok ace. LOL

rate of fire is something we worried about in the military lol It just shows how fast you can miss. 

I shoot 3D tourneys a couple times a month, never with a warm up shot. I shoot them cold just because.

self bow? yup, shoot those too, sometimes with woodies. I won last months shoot shooting this selfbow and woodies...and beat the TRD class scores too.









work on your form, accuracy...then speed will follow. Never settle for mediocrity and assume your equipment is your limitation. my .02


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## rattus58 (Jul 9, 2007)

ArrowFetcher said:


> Nice shooting, but again, what was your rate of fire? Why do people here have trouble understanding there are different forms of archery? I can also shoot pretty tight groups taking it slow (pretty much as good as those and that is with a self bow), but it is not my preference. Also, I am pretty sure you didn't just go out with no warm up like I did, shoot a few groups, take pictures errors or no errors, and upload them. My youtube video for instance was a one shot johnny, there was no second takes.


Accuracy, Accuracy, Accuracy. Hit what you're aiming at.... great stuff, but it all changes when you're hunting. The joys of shooting sports are personal in nature, like pain, but when you're in competition, or when you are hunting, there are others involved in your decision to pull the trigger, relax your draw....

Aloha... :beer:


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## rattus58 (Jul 9, 2007)

trapperDave said:


> yeah, ok ace. LOL
> 
> rate of fire is something we worried about in the military lol *It just shows how fast you can miss. *I shoot 3D tourneys a couple times a month, never with a warm up shot. I shoot them cold just because.
> 
> ...


:grin:... Never heard it put quite that way, but your absolutely right.... There are timed competitions, of course, but if you look at anyone who competes, repeatable form, repeatable form, and improving ones speed while being accurate is seemingly the objective... No?


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## ArrowFetcher (Jun 21, 2011)

Ok, looks like you have about a 5 inch group there? Shooting how fast though? It does matter for comparison. I managed an 8 inch group in that first picture firing at least 8 shots per minute at 20 yards, you might be better but don't think you are some sort of ace yourself, hell you are damn good don't get me wrong, but what right does it give you to criticize others? Do you still not realize there are different forms of archery, some with a different historical back round? Can you shoot a decent group while walking? What about horseback? Extreme ranges? Speed? You are into hunting, whatever floats your boat, I am into keeping a decent rate of fire up with decent accuracy, and yes at my best I am at least decent even by far more experienced longbow/warbow shooters. Ever study the battle Agincourt? From the way you are talking I highly doubt it. You have a very narrow vision of all the possibilities and forms archery offers, if someone doesn't shoot like you, you seem to think you are better, sometimes you might be, but comparing yourself to completely different forms is pointless unless we both played each other at each others game, if your experience pays off and you win, good for you, even then you shouldn't criticize, if I beat you at my game and lose at yours, I would never criticize. Fact is, you can't shoot quite as accurate with a high rate of fire, even the people who are damn good at it, chances are their groups are even tighter shooting slowly, but they shoot fast anyway because it is their form. You would think this would be easy to understand... I can hunt, I choose not to, but I had to shoot a feral cat that was after my chickens, I am not as good at hunting as you, but I can time my shots when I want to. 
What about slingshots? Here is another one of my videos. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vT2OakRCYUM&feature=channel_video_title
Throwing spears? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N6jMcOrRK3A&feature=channel_video_title


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## benofthehood (May 18, 2011)

wow ... 



> *Fact is, you can't shoot quite as accurate with a high rate of fire, even the people who are damn good at it, chances are their groups are even tighter shooting slowly, but they shoot fast anyway because it is their form.*



There are some really good archers on here from all disciplines ... some of whom are offering you advice based on there many years of experience ... 
Archery is archery , regardless of what gear you use and the secret to good accuracy , even speed shooting, is a solid repeatable form . You are dismissing offered advice from people whom you immediatley assume know less than you [ big mistake ] and also a bit scathing of other peoples abilities .

Again ... wow .....

You seem pretty dismissive of others opinions and abilities ... some of whom have been there and done it . 

Maybe you should check out Howard Hill, the Wilhelm Brothers , Byron Ferguson , Ron Le Clair , John Schulz , Kassoi Lajos and Steve Morley, Rod Jenkins and Larry Yien . All these guys can shoot a bow , many of them selfbows and some can even spit an arrow out at a rapid rate of knots ... lol
Its a big archery world out there , with many fine talented people doing amazing things with bows and arrows . Maybe you shouild check some of them out . 

A little humility goes a long long way .


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## ozzypop (Sep 23, 2010)

John Schulz could shoot that fast and stack them on top of each other but then he had a nock point.


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## ArrowFetcher (Jun 21, 2011)

benofthehood said:


> wow ...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


No no no, I never assumed I knew more than the people here. I just don't understand why I got so much bad criticism, if you guys thought I was trying to make myself look superior sorry for the misunderstanding, but I don't like being attacked, especially if I never attacked anyone to begin with. I have been shooting for about seven years, and have plenty more to come. That all said, and it is not a cop out, the pictures I took were nowhere near my full potential, I just thought it would be dishonest to cheat and only bring up my best groups, and THAT said, considering the speed I am shooting, I am still not doing all that bad. You cannot compare me to the best archers in the world, completely different leagues and level of experience. 
As for the nock points, tell me why I need one when I don't have a problem keeping my arrows from wobbling? Nock points are above all an aid, not a necessity. I would never go as far to say they are not traditional like sites, pulleys and wheels, stabilizers, mechanical releases, etc. They are in fact still traditional, but an aid none the less. All you need to shoot a bow is a spring (being the bow), a string, and some arrows. The most instinctive way to learn is to learn to narrow the variables down as much as you can naturally without the use of any aids, the joy of shooting a selfbow made of a single piece of hickory or other wood is the simplicity, it is a stick (a beautiful one) and a string. I guess I can understand having a nock point on a shelved bow, but seriously how could it not hurt to learn without a nock point on a self bow, even a shelved bow if you so choose? On self bows your hand placement is never going to be exactly the same, seems like a nock point (which is suppose to create a static nocking point in unison with the shelf) is just silly. The point is to try to eliminate variables, but you are never going to eliminate the variable of your hand placement, so instead of learning everything instinctively hand placement and nock point, you will just find your adjusting your hand placement according to the nock point. When I nock an arrow I am already holding the bow, my hand is gripping the bow, if the nock point is static, I don’t want to adjust my hand a little in accordance to the nock point, it pays off to learn to nock the arrow in accordance to your hand. 
If you still want to use a nock point, go ahead, I won't say it is cheating or anything, but don't try to tell me it is impossible to learn without one, it is possible, the nock point is always there regardless if it is marked or not, I chose to learn to find it myself. I have seen others do it. A guy at an archery store at the range, he tried my shelved recurve out, he was a bit unnerved shooting without a nock point, but he took his time, found the right nock point all on his own, and shot two arrows two inches apart from 18 yards, and that was his first time going without a nock point. You don't mean to tell me that if he kept practicing that he couldn't do it faster do you?


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## voodoofire1 (Jan 24, 2006)

Just for kicks and giggles, I went out and tried a little cold speed shooting, 6 arrows, 25 yds downhill into a McKenzie buck in the laying down position,I could cover all the arrows with my hand and took 20.255 seconds, pretty fun really, didn't think I'd do nearly that good, if I had I would have taken my camera, but I don't know if it was because I used a nock point, or a 60# TT titan recurve with carbon limbs, or carbon arrows, or it may have been my 40+ years of shooting, longbows, recurves, selfbows and compounds, heck maybe it was cause I shot my light weight bow.........Whaddaya think TrapperDave, should I use something a bit stronger?


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## benofthehood (May 18, 2011)

You have obviously made your mind up re nock points through your seven years of testing ... more power to you .


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## rattus58 (Jul 9, 2007)

ArrowFetcher said:


> No no no, I never assumed I knew more than the people here. I just don't understand why I got so much bad criticism, if you guys thought I was trying to make myself look superior sorry for the misunderstanding, but I don't like being attacked, especially if I never attacked anyone to begin with. I have been shooting for about seven years, and have plenty more to come. That all said, and it is not a cop out, the pictures I took were nowhere near my full potential, I just thought it would be dishonest to cheat and only bring up my best groups, and THAT said, considering the speed I am shooting, I am still not doing all that bad. You cannot compare me to the best archers in the world, completely different leagues and level of experience.
> As for the nock points, tell me why I need one when I don't have a problem keeping my arrows from wobbling? Nock points are above all an aid, not a necessity. I would never go as far to say they are not traditional like sites, pulleys and wheels, stabilizers, mechanical releases, etc. They are in fact still traditional, but an aid none the less. All you need to shoot a bow is a spring (being the bow), a string, and some arrows. The most instinctive way to learn is to learn to narrow the variables down as much as you can naturally without the use of any aids, the joy of shooting a selfbow made of a single piece of hickory or other wood is the simplicity, it is a stick (a beautiful one) and a string. I guess I can understand having a nock point on a shelved bow, but seriously how could it not hurt to learn without a nock point on a self bow, even a shelved bow if you so choose? On self bows your hand placement is never going to be exactly the same, seems like a nock point (which is suppose to create a static nocking point in unison with the shelf) is just silly. The point is to try to eliminate variables, but you are never going to eliminate the variable of your hand placement, so instead of learning everything instinctively hand placement and nock point, you will just find your adjusting your hand placement according to the nock point. When I nock an arrow I am already holding the bow, my hand is gripping the bow, if the nock point is static, I don’t want to adjust my hand a little in accordance to the nock point, it pays off to learn to nock the arrow in accordance to your hand.
> If you still want to use a nock point, go ahead, I won't say it is cheating or anything, but don't try to tell me it is impossible to learn without one, it is possible, the nock point is always there regardless if it is marked or not, I chose to learn to find it myself. I have seen others do it. A guy at an archery store at the range, he tried my shelved recurve out, he was a bit unnerved shooting without a nock point, but he took his time, found the right nock point all on his own, and shot two arrows two inches apart from 18 yards, and that was his first time going without a nock point. You don't mean to tell me that if he kept practicing that he couldn't do it faster do you?


Hey... if you don't want to use a nock... don't. Those of us who do, find that it allows more for proper concentration on the target/animal, something I can absolutely say you cannot do without a nock locator without giving up your attention to the arrow/string/alignment first... or... you're not going to be consistent.... in my estimation... and brief trial... but yer shooting... that is ALL that matters.


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## ArrowFetcher (Jun 21, 2011)

Tell you guys what, I will try a nock point out, if you wonder why I keep debating it is for a reason, I need really good evidence from both sides of the field, but seeing as I am the only one here who has been shooting without a nock point, I have drawn it out hoping that I could eventually learn more from my side of the field from others, sadly it is me versus all of you, so the debate is being drawn out longer than initially intended. I will try a nock point out, I will use artificial sinew and tie a knot right on a good spot I instincitvely find taking my time, that is where I will make the knot. I am trying it out, but I still have no idea how it is suppose to work with a self bow. I will get back with you guys when I have results.
Now, a little backtracking, I searched and found there are other primitive self bow archers who prefer using no nock point, it was more just mentioned though and not debated on two forums. It was also briefly mentioned on a horse archery site (link below), "no arrow rest, no nocking point, the arrows rest on your hand." Described something along those lines. So there are other self bow archers that see must see something I do. Although not the norm, even for primitive archery, it is still practiced by others. 

http://www.sevenmeadowsarchery.com/FAQs.html 

Voodoofire1, that is a pretty accurate time estimation to 100th of a second, how did you time yourself? I would like to see it as a matter of fact, not for proof but just to see what you get out of it. Don't just say it was for giggles if it was fun and you turned out to be good at it.


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## ArrowFetcher (Jun 21, 2011)

Proof, just put it on. We will see how it works then, but honestly, every time I hold the bow and nock an arrow on the nock point, it seems like it is at a slightly different angle because it lacks a shelf.


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## voodoofire1 (Jan 24, 2006)

I just used something totally un-traditional........a digital watch with a chronograph, actually my brother did the timing, I just lent him my watch,lol.......I do have to admit, it was fun, maybe I'll give it a bit more practice, I like going to the Rinehart 100, and they have an archery drag race competition, two archers side by side shooting at 1 gal. jugs of water connected by a piece of rope strung across a couple pulleys......5 arrows....... first one to let all the water out, which raises his jug..Wins......it's mostly compounds though, but I did see a couple recurves try, they were faster but couldn't hit the broad side of a barn with a mack truck.......only 1 hit between them............


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## benofthehood (May 18, 2011)

for reference with guys shooting warbows ELB's etc 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aAiTrnA-TL4&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nDoggUZTOJs&feature=related 3mins in 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jsbp4w-4E68&feature=related 57 sedonds in 

All using nock points on their strings


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## grantmac (May 31, 2007)

Some speed shooters nock the arrow above the nocking point as they feel its a little faster. But you obviously have to shoot split fingered, which you are already doing.

As for hand position: Use a bowyers mark where you place your hand and keep its placement consistent. If you want to shoot 12 arrows then don't move your hand during the shooting.

-Grant


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## trapperDave (Mar 12, 2005)

the englishmen of old were practicly born with bow in hand, In fact it was law that every able body be able and regularly practice shooting. They werent doin it for speed, they done it for accuracy. Study a little deeper lad. check into "the crooked stick" the history of the english longbow. Read it all then get back with us. ;^)


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## cossack (May 11, 2011)

Is this a knock nock thread?
To each his own.


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## trapperDave (Mar 12, 2005)

voodoofire1 said:


> Just for kicks and giggles, I went out and tried a little cold speed shooting, 6 arrows, 25 yds downhill into a McKenzie buck in the laying down position,I could cover all the arrows with my hand and took 20.255 seconds, pretty fun really, didn't think I'd do nearly that good, if I had I would have taken my camera, but I don't know if it was because I used a nock point, or a 60# TT titan recurve with carbon limbs, or carbon arrows, or it may have been my 40+ years of shooting, longbows, recurves, selfbows and compounds, heck maybe it was cause I shot my light weight bow.........Whaddaya think TrapperDave, should I use something a bit stronger?


I think you could shave a couple seconds if ya shot somethin closer to 100#  Hows the recovery coming?


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## benofthehood (May 18, 2011)

trapperDave said:


> the englishmen of old were practicly born with bow in hand, In fact it was law that every able body be able and regularly practice shooting. They werent doin it for speed, they done it for accuracy. Study a little deeper lad. check into "the crooked stick" the history of the english longbow. Read it all then get back with us. ;^)


That is a very cool book . Good recommendation. !


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## WindWalker (Jan 23, 2005)

Ethan:

The problem you are having with recruiting anyone to seriously consider your suggestions regarding your attempt to persuade others to consider doing away with a string nock and engage in a rapid fire method of shooting is because you are talking with experienced and serious archers....competition target and bowhunting, some having been in the archery game for years and those that are now walking the same path. Some readers might entertain themselves by engaging in the discussions in a positive manner.... just to kill time... but none of the abovesaid type of shooters are going to take you seriously. 

Now; if you had started a thread that was intended to be specific in discussion of your choice and method of tuning and shooting arrows, and others having a similar mindset cared to discuss and debate the novel method(s) of tuning and shooting you are using and suggesting, then, fine. Go for it. 

However, such is not the case. You started a discussion in which you are trying to mix oil and water. No serious competition archer/bowhunter in their right mind, new or experienced, would even consider for a second of employing your suggestions; especially since you have clearly (visually) demonstrated that your shooting ability using your methods is a complete disaster.


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## ArrowFetcher (Jun 21, 2011)

trapperDave said:


> the englishmen of old were practicly born with bow in hand, In fact it was law that every able body be able and regularly practice shooting. They werent doin it for speed, they done it for accuracy. Study a little deeper lad. check into "the crooked stick" the history of the english longbow. Read it all then get back with us. ;^)


From my understanding they didn't even accept you if you couldn't release 12 shots per minute, which is fairly speedy. How fast you could release your arrows was hugely important in war, it was what made them so feared. At agincourt they got off like 70,000 arrows in a minute, French crossbowmen couldn't compare, and the French calvary didn't stand a chance as they charged, by the time they knew they were outmatched, they were in the middle of a massive storm of arrows. Longbowmen did shoot for speed, that much is fact, but of course they shot for accuracy as well.

Grantmac, my method of nocking a bow brings the arrow through the string not over it, I nock just like this awesome dude in this video, just not as fast. Notice he nocks from the bottom up, so the nocking point being on top of the arrow makes more sense for my method of shooting. Same method pretty much except his quiver is on his back, he is just quicker than me.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6CNEhEeC2-M


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## MAC 11700 (Feb 22, 2011)

ArrowFetcher said:


> As grantmac got on the money, this is an english longbow/warbow. It is not a shelved recurve with a nock point. The idea is a combination of speed and accuracy, the military wouldn't even allow you to join if you didn't shoot at least 12 shots per minute. Having a nock point and shelf does slow you down, with plenty of training you can and will get just as good without a shelf or nock point, which is why it was law to train 2 days out of the week in medieval england. People in the same field as me understand, I was hoping that the traditional archery section of this forum would have people who actually understand different forms of archery, everyone here seems to have a compound bow mindset, chances are they started with compounds? Shoot slow, and aim for some animals heart, seems to be all everyone cares about in archery anymore and it is a real shame. I try to respect all forms of archery, but it is hard not to call you guys out on your **** trying to prove something because you can get a tighter group while shooting with more aids and at a slow rate of fire. To put things in perspective, how would you feel if compound bow shooters were telling you off for your groups that were more spread than theirs? You are doing nothing different. As for shooting huge ranges which a longbow is really special at, from the way I understand it from someone who studies it and lives in the uk, it was law to practice at no less than 200 yards! I have done 150 yards and that was hard enough, but I could still manage to hit a standard sized 2x2 archery target once in a while. A good group was like 10 feet in diameter.
> The ones who I think should certainly ditch the nock point are especially ones who shoot self bows (a nock point is silly on a self bow), and people who want a mixture of speed and accuracy. I have seen people try to shoot fast and achieve worse groups than I can with their shelved recurve bows with nock points and they aren't even shooting as fast either because they have to make sure they are nocked just right because they never learned to do it instinctively, someone who worked at an archery store of all places. He needed to ditch the nocking point.


Not having a nock point even with a self bow or any other bow is not silly..but IMHO stupid.While it may fit your paticular style of flinging arrows at a target..in the real world it is impracticle not to have one.Your arguement for not having proper hand placement everytime is also very lame..people have been using all kinds of materials from animal skins/hides to tanned leather strips on their bows grips since they first were invented..and most all of them will allow placing your hand in the exact same position everytime even on a self bow.

The ancient archers who stood shoulder to shoulder and fired in volleys in groups of hundreds didn't need to be accurate as much as being able to continue the rate of fire for a sustained period....and to reach the target...this is why they practiced at long yardages...this was done to stop the advance of the foot soldiers..much as laying down suppressive fire in todays armies..and for also firing over walls or other emplacements..Individuals then..as today..who choose to be accurate..know full well that the rate of fire isn't nearly as important as being able to judge yardage..and hitting the target...and to do that..then..as now..consistancy is and has always been the key to achieving this. The English long bow,was just 1 of many types of bows used through out history...and the basic principles for shooting them accurately has not changed in all of this time..They have been modified somewhat..but the basics are still the same.

While I do admire your wanting to do what you are doing..your very wrong about not needing one..what you need to do is just practice more with it and wrap the handle on your bow so you can place your hand on it consistantly...then when you can shoot as many arrows as you do but hit your target the majority of time..then you have something to brag about..Of course..if you get to a point of hitting your target the majority of times with out the consistantly..please take some video of doing it..

Mac


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## trapperDave (Mar 12, 2005)

ArrowFetcher said:


> From my understanding they didn't even accept you if you couldn't release 12 shots per minute, which is fairly speedy. How fast you could release your arrows was hugely important in war, it was what made them so feared. At agincourt they got off like 70,000 arrows in a minute, French crossbowmen couldn't compare, and the French calvary didn't stand a chance as they charged, by the time they knew they were outmatched, they were in the middle of a massive storm of arrows. Longbowmen did shoot for speed, that much is fact, but of course they shot for accuracy as well.
> 
> Grantmac, my method of nocking a bow brings the arrow through the string not over it, I nock just like this awesome dude in this video, just not as fast. Notice he nocks from the bottom up, so the nocking point being on top of the arrow makes more sense for my method of shooting. Same method pretty much except his quiver is on his back, he is just quicker than me.
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6CNEhEeC2-M


youre understanding is wrong.


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## trapperDave (Mar 12, 2005)

now that you have tied a nock on, you might (with practice) get as good as my kids


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## voodoofire1 (Jan 24, 2006)

"the englishmen of old were practicly born with bow in hand, In fact it was law that every able body be able and regularly practice shooting. They werent doin it for speed, they done it for accuracy."

Our family on my fathers side was from England, so Dave some of us still are,lol......My father was a competition shooter before I was born and continued till I was 5,maybe 6 years old....

and on the recovery......Thought I was doing pretty good, till I did this speed thing....I noticed it was getting pretty stiff last evening, and I had a 'lump" in my throat, when I woke up this morning,my neck is swelled and have a massive migrane,and the plate has shifted again........ probably won't be doing that again for a while .....and my foot seems to be healing up nicely, I can walk ok with stiff soles and using the inside of my foot without a lot of pain, but step on a rock, stick, crack, and woooohoooo............


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## casterpollox (Apr 7, 2010)

I have enjoyed reading this thread and felt it was time to add something of my own. This is coming from a complete noob to traditional archery, in fact archery in general. I started shooting a compound in Feb. 2010 and a recurve in Jan. 2011. 

I picked up a recurve cheap and dove in, getting things set up quick and dirty then started flinging arrows. Dumb luck has gotten me to this point and I know it, so I wanted to learn. I've ready books, studied them and read hundreds of websites to find out more about the "science" of archery. As coincidence would have it, I just started to learn more about nocking points and the importance of consistency with everything you do. Hand placement, nocking point, anchor point and even where you place your draw fingers on the string.

Last week, I tried to apply what I learned with some bareshaft tuning and noticed that I was nock low. I moved my nock by less than *1/8th* of an inch and my groups have shrunk considerably... to the point that others at the range think I have been practicing 5 days a week when I all have done is move my nock point. To put it into perspective, if I was shooting coffee can lids before consistently, I would now be shooting peanut butter lids.

The reason I bring this up is because the statements made so far, got me thinking about moving my nock by less than *1/8th* of an inch and how much affect it had on my results. When shooting at high speed how easy is it to get that nock to within 1/8th of the same place every time? I would think the use of a nocking point would *guarentee* it.

Again, take this for what it's worth. I've only been shooting a recurve for 5 months.

There was also a comment about concentrating so much on placing the arrow on the nocking point that it could be distracting. In my case, I'm sure it's different for everyone, I don't even look at my string while nocking an arrow. I can feel the ridge on the side of my arrow's nock, aligned with the cock feather so I know which way to place the arrow on the string and I can feel the nock point. This allows me to focus on my target and judge the range. I shoot mostly 3D right now so this could apply to just me but I thought I'd bring it up as well since we're exploring all options of how to nock an arrow.


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## grantmac (May 31, 2007)

MAC 11700 said:


> what you need to do is just practice more with it and wrap the handle on your bow so you can place your hand on it consistantly
> 
> Mac


Warbows were never wrapped at the handle. A mark is burnt into the wood instead and the arrow is aligned with it.

-Grant


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## ArrowFetcher (Jun 21, 2011)

Ok, I just shot about 150 shots or so with the nock point, that and shooting like 400 shots yesterday and the day before that and before that is leaving my arms kind of tired, anyway to the point. I actually liked the nock point, my groups did shrink, I am now acheiving about a 5 to 6 inch group at 20 yards shooting at about 8 shots per second. Incredibly enough, when I go to shoot faster, the nock point has helped speed my rate of fire up which was unexpected. Nocking without looking is easy as pie now and I can easily acheive 12 shots per second without looking at the nock now. There was a pretty bad crosswind today, not to say it had an effect on my accuracy but I can only guess it must have a little, I am curious what I can do without that wind, might shrink the group even more. I will continue using a nock point I think, though it was slightly annoying making sure my hand was placed exactly in the correct spot, I think I can work past that. Mac11700, my handle is wrapped, but I still want the arrow resting on my hand, that is the joy of a self bow! Grantmac, that is interesting about burning a spot in the wood, not sure I would say all longbows had that done to them though. Burning a mark into the wood with a hot iron rod is essentially making a shelf, assuming you meant they burn it long enough to create a pit in the wood. Casterpollox, interesting story, yes nocking too low is really really bad, it always creates inconsistancy, it is worse than nocking a little high anyway from my experience, both are bad but low is worse. With a self bow you can cut your hand a little making it bleed nocking too low as well. My 50 pound longbow has a little blood stained into the wood from years ago when I was still getting use to it.


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## grantmac (May 31, 2007)

ArrowFetcher said:


> Ok, I just shot about 150 shots or so with the nock point, that and shooting like 400 shots yesterday and the day before that and before that is leaving my arms kind of tired, anyway to the point. I actually liked the nock point, my groups did shrink, I am now acheiving about a 5 to 6 inch group at 20 yards shooting at about 8 shots per second. Incredibly enough, when I go to shoot faster, the nock point has helped speed my rate of fire up which was unexpected. Nocking without looking is easy as pie now and I can easily acheive 12 shots per second without looking at the nock now. There was a pretty bad crosswind today, not to say it had an effect on my accuracy but I can only guess it must have a little, I am curious what I can do without that wind, might shrink the group even more. I will continue using a nock point I think, though it was slightly annoying making sure my hand was placed exactly in the correct spot, I think I can work past that. Mac11700, my handle is wrapped, but I still want the arrow resting on my hand, that is the joy of a self bow! Grantmac, that is interesting about burning a spot in the wood, not sure I would say all longbows had that done to them though. Burning a mark into the wood with a hot iron rod is essentially making a shelf, assuming you meant they burn it long enough to create a pit in the wood. Casterpollox, interesting story, yes nocking too low is really really bad, it always creates inconsistancy, it is worse than nocking a little high anyway from my experience, both are bad but low is worse. With a self bow you can cut your hand a little making it bleed nocking too low as well. My 50 pound longbow has a little blood stained into the wood from years ago when I was still getting use to it.


Its just a mark, nothing more. Commonly refered to as a Bowyers mark because it was generally unique to the person making the bow. Warbows were never wrapped at the handle as that can be a source of moisture entering the bow and they had to be serviced in the field with as little resources as possible.

-Grant


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## martha j (May 11, 2009)

you might want to read Dick Palmers book on shooting heavy bows & speed shooting.


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## voodoofire1 (Jan 24, 2006)

Wow, Easily 12 arrows per second, Guess that nocking point really did help!.....


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## MAC 11700 (Feb 22, 2011)

grantmac said:


> Its just a mark, nothing more. Commonly refered to as a Bowyers mark because it was generally unique to the person making the bow. Warbows were never wrapped at the handle as that can be a source of moisture entering the bow and they had to be serviced in the field with as little resources as possible.
> 
> -Grant


Warbows as many other bows were indeed wrapped by various individuals..some with sinew..some with leather lacing..some with hides..some with horn...perhaps not in the English infantry..but it has been done through out Europe and Asia Minor...The various oils used day to day during those time periods gave these wrappings some water proofing..and also increased the strength of the riser....and limbs.

As too the 8-12 arrows a second...me-thinks this is a typo...

Mac


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## grantmac (May 31, 2007)

MAC 11700 said:


> Warbows as many other bows were indeed wrapped by various individuals..some with sinew..some with leather lacing..some with hides..some with horn...perhaps not in the English infantry..but it has been done through out Europe and Asia Minor...The various oils used day to day during those time periods gave these wrappings some water proofing..and also increased the strength of the riser....and limbs.
> 
> As too the 8-12 arrows a second...me-thinks this is a typo...
> 
> Mac


Composite bows were wrapped with animal products and also with birch bark depending on which people were making them for protection from the elements, water soluble glue and all. The English/Welsh/Norse self warbows have never been discovered with any indication of wrapping.
The iconic horn nocks were really only introduced when the draw-weights went above 120lbs as the yew was perfectly fine self-nocked when used at moderate poundages. This means that for most of the time in which selfbows were instruments of war they did not use horn nocks. If you want to be completely historically accurate then a Tudor bow would be above 120lbs and have single-sided self nocks. Bow before then generally had single sided self-nocks.

A particularly fascinating bunch of bows were found at Nydam from the Norse era and had sharp iron spikes on their upper tip to be used as a melee weapon.

Fun stuff this historical archery. My favourite hunting bow design is modelled after the oldest bow fragment ever found, pre-bronze age.

-Grant


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## voodoofire1 (Jan 24, 2006)

"As too the 8-12 arrows a second...me-thinks this is a typo..."..........yep kida fugure ut was du two type o's to,lol,lol..... just funnin!


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## ArrowFetcher (Jun 21, 2011)

Wait, what is a typo? That isn't that fast if that is what you are implying, it is speedy but not super fast. I average 8-12 shots per second depending on the mood, I can shoot like 14 shots per second when moving quicker, a bit more clumsy at that speed though.

EDIT- Oh! lol, I see. I can be pretty ******ed sometimes. 8-12 shots per second would be awesome, meant 8-12 per minute of course!
I can't say [email protected]? lol


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