# Will the speed limit ever change



## captin09 (Jun 30, 2009)

Just wondering, with the bows that are comeing out now that are shooting well over 300 fps. Will the asa rule ever change the speed from 288. What do yall think.


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## dragman (Jul 12, 2008)

honestly I think It should get bumbed maybe 10fps. My reasoning is with the bows they are making now I believe there are more people having to SLOW down bows than speed them up. I wouldn't shoot ASA only because I don't want to have to buy to sets of arrows. Change markings between shoots and its just a hastle. with bow today even a 26 inch DL can get in the 280's at 5 grains. But if you have a 29-30 inch DL and you have a fast bow your gonna have to shoot telephone poles to make the speed.


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## Avalon (Jul 23, 2007)

I believe it eventually will. I don't want it to, but I think it will. My draw is 26.5 and I like where it's at.
That said, I don't think that the speed of todays bows is all that should/will be taken into consideration. The slower speed limit also puts a preimium on yardage judging. So even if bows are putting out the heat, Mike may want to keep the focus on judging and as long as big guys can get their bows to shoot 280 I think it keeps yardage judging at a premium.


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## Spoon13 (Feb 20, 2007)

I keep hearing people say with todays bows this and todays bows that, and if you look what people are shooting at an ASA event, it's not the speed demon hunting bows. Most are shooting target bows, most of which have an IBO of 320 or lower and usually lower.

The handful of people that want to shoot with X-Force, Monster, DXT, AM 35 and the like maxed out at 70# are not going to overrule the hundreds of shooters that are shooting Apex 7, Conquest, Ultra Elite, Pro Elite, Vantage, ...etc.


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## dragman (Jul 12, 2008)

OK, I am looking at the specs on a TARGET bow. the ProElite - A real 310 Fps with spiralX's. I know hoyts and they WILL shoot at least what they say so Now someone has to slow there bow down 20 fps! Good thing they don't have an ultraelite shooting 320! I understand judging yardage is the ASA's big deal but going back and forth to shoot IBO and ASA isn't easy! even with true target bows you still have to have two completely different set ups.


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## bhtr3d (Feb 13, 2004)

280 is a staple rule in asa...so the answer is NO..... just like 5gpi in ibo wont ever change.


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## cabotvt (Jul 23, 2007)

280 will stay I know it is hard to believe but a bow can shoot an arrow that weighs more then 5 grains per pound. It's hard to believe but speed is no answer for skill

HAPPY 4th


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## dragman (Jul 12, 2008)

bhtr3d said:


> 280 is a staple rule in asa...so the answer is NO..... just like 5gpi in ibo wont ever change.


5 grains will never be changed because we all know if they get rid of the restriction some donkey will shoot a 150 grain arrow out of a 80lb bow and end up with half an arrow through there arm! There is no reason why 280 can't be changed. I just think it's rediculous when I know a woman shooting 58lbs with a 26 1/2 DL and she is getting 296fps outta her bow. Not saying they should get rid of the limit just bump it 10-15 fps.


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## WDMJR3DBOWGUY (Dec 2, 2003)

a heavy arrow is a more accurate arrow. 280 is fine by me. Just because they say it is safe to shoot a 5gr per pound arrow doesnt mean you do.


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

Somewhere along the line the speed limit will raised, but I'd like to see a Speed Class started just to see what they really do, speed wise and accuracy wise. I have a good idea the speed demons will not prove their worth.
As of right now, I don't seen these faster bows winning on the national circuit and even on the local levels.
As for The NFAA raising their speed limit, they are grasping at anything that will keep them afloat.


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## Elf Friend (Mar 1, 2003)

I hope not. 280 +/- 3% keeps the playing field level.


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## reylamb (Feb 5, 2003)

dragman said:


> OK, I am looking at the specs on a TARGET bow. the ProElite - A real 310 Fps with spiralX's. I know hoyts and they WILL shoot at least what they say so Now someone has to slow there bow down 20 fps! Good thing they don't have an ultraelite shooting 320! I understand judging yardage is the ASA's big deal but going back and forth to shoot IBO and ASA isn't easy! even with true target bows you still have to have two completely different set ups.


Yup, for all those folks that are blessed with 28.5" and greater DLs, you are correct, they might actually have to slow them down. The 280 +3% keeps everything fair for everyone, as even us short draw folks can get to 280 with a good a-a, good BH, and not having to pull tons of weight.

Nope, I don't see it changing.


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## geezer047 (Mar 11, 2007)

Eventually the 280 rule will be outdated and have to be raised but not right now. There are still a lot of older bows on the 3D ranges and when guys try to force these older bows into more speed then it can become a safety issue. Some of the older archers can remember when we start trying to force the older bows into more speed, limbs breaking and teardrops tearing off at full draw, it was dangerrous. As these older bows are phased out then I see a 300 fps rule coming up. Speed is all fun and games to somebody loses an eye.LOL
Charlie


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## ramboarhunter (Jun 5, 2006)

*excessive speed*

I sure hope that the IbO wises up pretty soon and puts the 280 speed limit on like the ASA. At the rate the bow manufactures are going they are going to put the small archery clubs out of business. 
These people that want all the speed because they can't judge yardage are causing so much damage to 3D targets that they won't last a full season.
Personal opinion; all bows shooting over 260 FPS should have to pay 2 or 3 times the normal shooting fee to shoot the local courses or pay the same fees as they pay at the big nattional shoots.


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## P&Y OHIO (Apr 30, 2008)

*280 +/-3%*

Really, Let's talk about this

Why do you need 2 different setups?

I think this is the problem...It's not the advantage speed affords but the lack of knowledge w/ an archers yard estimation pertaining to the sport of 3D

If you personally are able to guesstimate a particular unknown yardage within +/- 1 yd. or even better, why do you need 300 + fps to score?

IMHO this whole speed debate is a waste of your time and mine, and we should be out there working on our yardage estimation, and not worrying about the other guy.

Archery is an individual sport...Your gonna get out of it what you put into it and I don't mean $...It's a lot of hard work and sweat to get to the top of this archery game...some of the scores posted by the top archers in the world are just flat out phenomenal and I tip my hat to em

If I were you I'd save my money and just pound spots w/ your "1" setup, always striving to improve in every aspect of your game 


dragman said:


> OK, I am looking at the specs on a TARGET bow. the ProElite - A real 310 Fps with spiralX's. I know hoyts and they WILL shoot at least what they say so Now someone has to slow there bow down 20 fps! Good thing they don't have an ultraelite shooting 320! I understand judging yardage is the ASA's big deal but going back and forth to shoot IBO and ASA isn't easy! even with true target bows you still have to have two completely different set ups.


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## dragman (Jul 12, 2008)

P&Y OHIO said:


> Really, Let's talk about this
> 
> Why do you need 2 different setups?
> 
> ...


Ok, I say this I am not a great judge of yardage I didn't grow up with a hunting or shooting family. I didn't get started til I was 18. So your saying My lack of knowledge at judging yardage down to under a yard means I should never win? So anyone who has shot there whole life has an advantage? 
Guess what life isn't fair! I didn't get started shooting til I was 18, but I am a great shot! I don't judge yardage very well but hey Isn't the fact that I can control a 340-350fps bow with a 6 inch BH skill? Think about it one guy judges yardage better the other make better shots. why is there a rule that hurts the in better shooter? It takes all forms of talent! I think the limit takes away from the talent of being a great shooter!


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## P&Y OHIO (Apr 30, 2008)

Hey Bud,

I'm not calling you out, I am using your post to try and prove a point

To be the best, in 3d let's say, it's a combination of both ability to shoot and yardage estimation

Just imagine what your scores would be if you would improve on your yardage estimation

I think you misunderstood my post and I wasn't bashing you personally

Sorry if I offended, that was not my intention...It's all good 



dragman said:


> Ok, I say this I am not a great judge of yardage I didn't grow up with a hunting or shooting family. I didn't get started til I was 18. So your saying My lack of knowledge at judging yardage down to under a yard means I should never win? So anyone who has shot there whole life has an advantage?
> Guess what life isn't fair! I didn't get started shooting til I was 18, but I am a great shot! I don't judge yardage very well but hey Isn't the fact that I can control a 340-350fps bow with a 6 inch BH skill? Think about it one guy judges yardage better the other make better shots. why is there a rule that hurts the in better shooter? It takes all forms of talent! I think the limit takes away from the talent of being a great shooter!


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## josechno (Sep 20, 2007)

I don't think the speed demons are winning alot of tourneys. Does anyone know what bows were being shot by the top ten in the Bow Novice and Hunter classes at Metropolis?


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## hophunt (Aug 21, 2007)

dragman said:


> Ok, I say this I am not a great judge of yardage I didn't grow up with a hunting or shooting family. I didn't get started til I was 18. So your saying My lack of knowledge at judging yardage down to under a yard means I should never win? So anyone who has shot there whole life has an advantage?
> Guess what life isn't fair! I didn't get started shooting til I was 18, but I am a great shot! I don't judge yardage very well but hey Isn't the fact that I can control a 340-350fps bow with a 6 inch BH skill? Think about it one guy judges yardage better the other make better shots. why is there a rule that hurts the in better shooter? It takes all forms of talent! I think the limit takes away from the talent of being a great shooter!


Dragman,

The fact that you, or anyone else, can shoot a speed bow well isn't in question. While shooting the SIMMS at IL a pro made a comment to me that 3D archery isn't a discipline it is a game. The discipline is archery and judging, if required in your class, the 3D portion is the game. As with any other game, we don't always agree with every rule. If the speed limit changes, the estimation part of the game is significantly affected. For example, you shoot a "speed bow" (280+ proposed 15= 295 X 3% = 304 fps because folks will use every bit they are allowed) at a given target judged at 36 yards aiming at the connector line of the IBO 11 and lower 12. The target is actually 38 yards. You maintain a 12 on the lower 10/12 line. The second shot you shoot a current target setup (280 X 3% + 288 fps) under the same target scenario. Your shot is a solid 8. Would an increase in speed help me? Yes because I am not as consistent as I need to be with judging.


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## dragman (Jul 12, 2008)

I didn't take any post personal I was just stating my opinion by using me as an example. :darkbeer: I agree uping the speed takes away from the yardage masters. I just want it moved a little. There are 2 major factors I think we all agree on Making the shot and Judging the yardage. Is one more important? i dunno. I just think like this: I have a 29 inch draw And used to shoot a bow that shot 341 fps at 5 grains. That is way way over! with bows that fast I just think it should go up a little. 
I think we all agree the average archery shooter is Male, the average height of the American man in 2009 was 5'11". The average wing span is the same as your height. that 71 inches. Divide that by the 2.5 and you get 28.5 inches of DL. I AM NOT saying that is law but I think it is a good average. 
I think it would be hard to find a top end bow at 28.5 inches you wouldn't have to "slow" down if you also shot IBO. Mine I shoot short at 28.5 and it has over an 8 inch BH and it still hits 300!


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## WDMJR3DBOWGUY (Dec 2, 2003)

You know everyone makes a choice to shoot what they want. I choose 280fps. I have shot some ibo rules at a local shoot in the past and why I would need anymore is beyond me. Yes I slow my bow down but a heavy arrow carries speed longer. I'm not saying if I was closer to more ibo stuff I wouldn't let my bow ride out, but I'm used to 280fps. That being said speed is not a replacement for yardage judging. Even at 300fps if you are 2-3yards off you will most likely drop out of the ten at 40 yards.


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## hoffmank (Feb 25, 2007)

*speed*

I really thought the ASA has done something to help the shooters who don't nail the yardage everytime with the 50/50 known and unknown. I am living proof that you can win a shoot not getting the yardage everyone time. You just need to hit your spots the second day on the known yardage. I Live in Ohio and shoot the IBO shoots as well and shoot the same setup for both the ASA and IBO and do well it just takes practice to improve on what your game is lacking.


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## T Miller73 (Jul 22, 2008)

*speed rule*

This is just my opinion. There is a big difference in hunting and target archery. I understand the speed rule in the money classes but if you shoot in hunter class you generally like to shoot what your going to hunt with right ? Isn't that what started this whole 3d game, to practice for hunting right ? Let the speed rule stay for the target archers and raise it in hunters class. Just because everyone in hunters class shoots 300+ doesn't mean that everyone is going to shoot the same scores.


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## BigBore56 (Mar 30, 2009)

When 3D really got cranked up in the 80"s, it was meant for actual "hunting" practice, and the courses were set up to reflect the equipment of the day.

Today, it is not the same. The courses are set up much, much tighter, and cater to the target archers/high speed bows. Many of the shooters are not even bowhunters, but in it to win cash...no matter what it takes.

I set a bow up for ASA (Hoyt Vantage Pro) to keep the speed within limits, but all my local shoots were "anything goes" as far as bows and equipment. Targets were set with tiny shooting lanes/holes, and you could not be competitive unless you are shooting 230+.

Solution...sold the Hoyt...bought an X-Force. Can't compete unless you have the proper tools!


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## rcrhoyt/mathews (Aug 11, 2008)

*speed limits*

Here in Michigan we have a outlaw class in place for the speed bows. That would be something to look at. I am working the idea of having a open outlaw and a outlaw hunter class. The hunter class would follow all the hunter rules with no speed limit and a 40yd max. while the open class is run with what you brung. Any thoughts on the OUTLAW idea?


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## browndiamond (Mar 2, 2009)

what is the rule and what does it mean/stand for/do/prevent?


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## WDMJR3DBOWGUY (Dec 2, 2003)

RC- the 3d circuit here in fl tried an outlaw class, but I never saw anyone sign up. A lot of clubs, ranges are doing hunting only setups when the season is near. Extreme shoots are popular, check out north florida archers there is pics in their photos of it. 

Brown- the rule is to level the playing field no matter the persons draw length or physical ability in poundage.


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## geezer047 (Mar 11, 2007)

Remember, its a lot easier to slow a bow down than to speed it up. Most of the time slowing it down with heavier arrows or draw weight it will actually shoot better. As for as hunting bows, I haven't saw many that will shoot a real hunting arrow much over 300 fps. I mean a 450 grain + arrow like most of us shoot. All the guys that I hunt with now (all differant bows) shoot from 260 to 270 with their hunting setups. A guy shooting hunter class more than likely won't be shooting his hunting setup. He will shoot the lighter arrows so he can get the max speed. And really there is very little diff. at 35 yds how much a arrows drops at 280 or 300 fps. Still have to make the shot.


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## RNT (Feb 28, 2007)

captin09 said:


> Just wondering, with the bows that are comeing out now that are shooting well over 300 fps. Will the asa rule ever change the speed from 288. What do yall think.


If they dont you all who dont want to slow down your bows can just shoot non competition and shoot however fast you want.


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## Spoon13 (Feb 20, 2007)

thoyt82973 said:


> This is just my opinion. There is a big difference in hunting and target archery. I understand the speed rule in the money classes but if you shoot in hunter class you generally like to shoot what your going to hunt with right ? Isn't that what started this whole 3d game, to practice for hunting right ? Let the speed rule stay for the target archers and raise it in hunters class. Just because everyone in hunters class shoots 300+ doesn't mean that everyone is going to shoot the same scores.


Just to give you an idea, here are the bows that were in my group in 2007 at the ASA Classic in Bow Novice:

(2) Mathews Apex 7s, 1 was mine.
(2) Hoyt Ultra Elites
(1) Bowtech of unknown model
(1) Mathews Conquest 3

Of these bows, my Apex 7 and the bowtech were camo in color.

The arrows being used were mostly Easton Fatboys and Gold Tip x-Cutters.

Even in the pins(hunter) classes, there are WAY more target setups than hunting setups. The only difference between them is the sight and stab. Matter of fact, when I moved to Open C for 2008, all I did was change my Spot-Hogg Hogg-It to an AXCEL 3000 and swapped my 10.5" Doinker for a 24" model. Bow and arrows stayed the same.


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## goofy2788 (Aug 14, 2005)

The whole argument of speed limit or no speed limit is kinda dumb...either you can shoot or you can't the speed of the bow has nothing to do with the ability of the archer. Yes speed will help some on yardage but not as much as many want to hope...I shot 310 fps and still will drop out of the 10 ring if I'm off a couple yards...say the target is 40 yrds and I guessed 38, yep I'm getting an 8. See speed didn't help...step back to 50 yards guess what, you better still be very close with our yardage or your going to be out. I'm not the best at judgeing either...thus I'm not the top in my game. Truth be told this game is 100% about knowing the yards and executing the shot, if you don't do either, speed (or a speed limit) won't help you!!!


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

Additional; Just noted a Post noting that there are several Monsters for sale. Perhaps the owners can't handle the speed demon? I known a couple owning the Martin Slayer (IBO of 350 fps) and they have them turned down to the 280s - they do shoot great, the bows - the owners are like me - do okay in the little ponds....


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## wirenut583 (Nov 4, 2007)

*speed*

I shot with a real good shooter that is shooting a X-Force 80# and shooting 392 fps 1 pin 20-60 yards. If that was an advantage why isnt he winning every tourney? I am not sure that it is that much of an advantage but he was penetrating to the fletch on some targets. The people that set up a course has a little to say about the advantages as well when they put a rock rascal at 6 yards and the 12 ring the size of a dime, speed dont help there. But I like the idea of a speed limit and I think it is pretty legit at 280.IMO


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## Gripwerks (Apr 11, 2006)

wirenut583 said:


> I shot with a real good shooter that is shooting a X-Force 80# and shooting 392 fps 1 pin 20-60 yards. If that was an advantage why isnt he winning every tourney? I am not sure that it is that much of an advantage but he was penetrating to the fletch on some targets. The people that set up a course has a little to say about the advantages as well when they put a rock rascal at 6 yards and the 12 ring the size of a dime, speed dont help there. But I like the idea of a speed limit and I think it is pretty legit at 280.IMO


Assuming the shooter was using a 400 grain arrow at 392 fps it would drop approx. *40 inches from 20-60 yds.* So he was doing a lot of guessing with one pin.

Speed doesn't help much at all. Still have to know yardage.


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## mag41vance (Mar 13, 2008)

Speed = Greed always wanting more.
Control will always win out over Greed or speed.
In archery there is a whole lot to control before speed ever matters.


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## mag41vance (Mar 13, 2008)

Gripwerks said:


> Assuming the shooter was using a 400 grain arrow at 392 fps it would drop approx. *40 inches from 20-60 yds.* So he was doing a lot of guessing with one pin.
> 
> Speed doesn't help much at all. Still have to know yardage.


Perhaps he had the pin on the back side of the riser instead of the front. 
I could see one pin working in theroy but only if the pin were a very few inches away from the peep which isn't practical or likley.


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## dragman (Jul 12, 2008)

wirenut583 said:


> I shot with a real good shooter that is shooting a X-Force 80# and shooting 392 fps 1 pin 20-60 yards. If that was an advantage why isnt he winning every tourney? I am not sure that it is that much of an advantage but he was penetrating to the fletch on some targets. The people that set up a course has a little to say about the advantages as well when they put a rock rascal at 6 yards and the 12 ring the size of a dime, speed dont help there. But I like the idea of a speed limit and I think it is pretty legit at 280.IMO


That wins! That is the most insane statement ever made!!!!!!! Unless this guy is shooting a 35 inch draw and 3 grains per lbs he aint hitting 392 and 1 pin from 20-60!!! that is IMPOSSIBLE!!! Arrows arch!


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## Gripwerks (Apr 11, 2006)

dragman said:


> That wins! That is the most insane statement ever made!!!!!!! Unless this guy is shooting a 35 inch draw and 3 grains per lbs he aint hitting 392 and 1 pin from 20-60!!! that is IMPOSSIBLE!!! Arrows arch!


Agreed. See post 34.


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## cenochs (May 2, 2007)

True archery has nothing to do with judging yardage it is about making the shot and hitting the X ring. I wish all archery was know distance so people could see just how bad of shot they are or see how good they really are. There is nothing worse than going to a tournament and get beat by a guy shooting a speed bow and punches the trigger. I know of a particular man that was in the peer group at nelsonville in the AHC and he shoots a speed bow uses two pins and frames every target and punches the guts out of his wrist strap release. I asked him if he shoots ASA events and he said he can't judge distance and the speed of 280 would kill him . If that does not give archery as a sport a black eye I do not know what does.


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## welder1 (Jan 25, 2008)

cenochs said:


> True archery has nothing to do with judging yardage it is about making the shot and hitting the X ring. I wish all archery was know distance so people could see just how bad of shot they are or see how good they really are. There is nothing worse than going to a tournament and get beat by a guy shooting a speed bow and punches the trigger. I know of a particular man that was in the peer group at nelsonville in the AHC and he shoots a speed bow uses two pins and frames every target and punches the guts out of his wrist strap release. I asked him if he shoots ASA events and he said he can't judge distance and the speed of 280 would kill him . If that does not give archery as a sport a black eye I do not know what does.


Whew! Preach it brother! 3-d is the only game you can make an average shot and still score well. Them spots don't lie.


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## PSE Kid (Nov 22, 2008)

i think it should stay that way becasue a person with a short draw can shoot 280, but a person with a 29 inch draw can shot 40-50 lbs and get that speed, or he can shoot a heavier arrow with a heavy point for more accuracy.
one day they might change it, but for now it is good


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## 20ftup (Mar 19, 2007)

I for one am all for the speed limit if anything drop it to 260 archery is more than shootin xs at 20 yrds, I hate shootin known yardage it gets so boring


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## Stealthman (Mar 16, 2003)

Shooting "Marked yardage 3D" is like kissing your sister!:thumbs_do


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## ccfr62 (Sep 2, 2009)

I almost to open up this can of worms again but I think that the people who are crying about the speed limit need to practice judging yardage more and spend time on the computer less. If you are serious about winning 3-Ds then get out in the woods or the back yard and shoot some tennis balls with bludgeon tips. Use your range finder on everything until you start to feel comfortable. If you want to shoot 3-D's well then you need to practice judging yardage as much as you practice . We don't need to take anything away from the archers who have put forth the effort to learn how to judge yardage by bumping the speed limit to make it easier for those who don't put the time in. I understand that the newer bows are hard to get down to 280 but you can shoot a heavier full length arrow. You don't have to change your pins every time. You can have a seperate site to place on your bow for 3-D. Change the site and shoot a few shots to make sure everything is the same as you had it before and you are ready to shoot 3-D. Who knows, if you practice judging yardage a little bit more you might win a site at a local pro-shop tournament.


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## carlosii (Feb 25, 2007)

Stealthman said:


> Shooting "Marked yardage 3D" is like kissing your sister!:thumbs_do


I've shot marked distance...but I've never kissed my sister...am I missing something?:wink:


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## Kadob62 (May 1, 2009)

Judging yardage is 1/2 the fun of 3-D, 

Am i right, how close am i? Won't know till the arrow hits it's mark, or not.


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