# Penetration problems...



## lemonater06 (Nov 6, 2012)

I just have 1 bow(Mathews Z7) and I have it set about 63 lbs with 27 in draw shooting 28 in arrows. I am currently shooting a goldtip 5575 and it seems to be tuned in great. However I just shot a monster whitetail yesterday morning and this is the 3rd deer I have not been able to pound all the way threw (1 with 1 3/8 grim reaper and 2 with 100 gr. Rage 2 blade). (NOT ENOUGH BLOOD, DIDN't FIND IT!!!). I like having the lighter weight bow for shooting 3D I can shoot it more times. but I need to get some more punch. I can pull more weight if needed but my arrows aren't going to have enough spine if I add more weight there. Anyone have any good suggestions? Quick ways to tune if i just changed up arrows and weight for hunting season? Heavier broadhead and arrow with more poundage?


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## aread (Dec 25, 2009)

Here is an article that might help you.
"Top 12 Penetration Enhancers" - http://arrowtrademagazine.com/articles/mar_11/Mar2011-TopPenetrationEnhancers.pdf

Dr Ed Ashby has done a huge amount of research on how to kill animals with broadhead tipped arrows. Some don't agree with Dr Ashby, but it's the best information that we have right now. 

Most of his research was on Asian Buffalo which are thick skinned, heavy boned animals and have a reputation for being hard to kill. The most pertinent question is about how his findings translate to lighter animals like whitetail deer. Most of what he found is simple common sense such as sharp broadheads on arrows that don't fall apart before they can do their job & good arrow flight. The controversy seems to come from those who don't like his recommendations on arrow weight.

Read the article and if you are interested, read Dr Ashby's reports. Alaska Bowhunting Supply has them on their excellent website. They are a little tough to wade through since he write them as scientific reports but IMO, its worth the effort. Even if you don't agree with him, you will be far better educated on the subject than before. 

Hope this helps,
Allen


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## walbash635 (Nov 6, 2012)

i prefer fixed blade broadhead's. shot placement is main thing for pass through's and good blood in my opinion. try too stay away from the shoulder bones and wait for shot ya can get it through with.


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## lemonater06 (Nov 6, 2012)

Allen thanks thats a really great article, some things in there I really hadn't thought about. Like forward balance giving you better penetration, good stuff. Walbash 635, what do you recommend for a fixed blade? Ive been thinking of going this route but I definitely want a broadhead that flies good so I can get that shot placement I need.


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## [email protected] (Aug 3, 2010)

Get some SLICK TRICK 100 GR and i dont see how turning the bow to 70 if you can handle it that you would be overspined.As always shot placement is crucial but you need the most penetration for the most unfortunate mi****s.good luck


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## aread (Dec 25, 2009)

The original intent of Dr Ashby's research was to find the best broadhead. For penetration and best lethality, he recommended a 2 blade broadhead, heavy, with good steel, single bevel edges and tanto tip. The first one he came up with was a Grizzly El Grande that he modified. The good news is that these are some of the least expensive BH's available but you do have a bit of work to do on them. 

The only place where I know you can get them is 3 Rivers. And you have to also buy adaptors since they only come as a glue-on for wooden arrows. The Grizzly's look like stamped out sheet metal, but they are actually pretty good steel. It's a bit soft, but that is to avoid breaking when it hits bone. It's one of the steels that modern swordmakers use. 

I haven't read his BH recommendations since that one because the six pack of Grizzly's that I bought several years ago are still going strong.

There have been several BH's designed per Dr Ashby's recommendations. I think that Alaska Bowhunting Supply sells several. Unfortunately, they are very expensive.

There are other BH's available that aren't outrageously expensive, but can be modified. One that I know of it the Muzzy Phantom. I'm sure there are others. I haven't studied the market since I'm very satisfied with my Grizzly's.

Hope this helps,
Allen


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## da white shoe (Mar 10, 2009)

Just screwing a fixed-blade head onto an arrow will not cure anything... without first taking some other issues into account. 
I'm not sure what your total arrow weight is, but if they're under 420 grs, you could stand to go heavier... yes, even for whitetails! 
Worried about string jumping? A heavier arrow will reduce the sound your bow makes and in most cases, using a heavier arrow will *reduce* string-jumping. 
Just for a reference, I shoot a Z7 at 67lbs with 28" FMJs and they weigh 463grs. I can tell you that, out of this bow, there is a world of difference in penetration between 400grs and 463grs! 
You said your bow, "Seems to be tuned?" That doesn't sound very promising... 
Tuning might just be* the *most important factor in penetration... except for bad shot placement.
You can crank up your draw weight, increase arrow and broadhead weight, switch to a fixed head... or some combination of all of these.
Just make sure your arrow is flying straight too.


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## Cheese1 (Sep 6, 2009)

I feel your 63 pounds is plenty weight, my Hoyt Vector turbo is 59 pounds, Victory 350 28- 1/2 inches, 29 1/2 inch draw, Nocturnal lighted noc, Muzzy MX3 100 grain. A few weeks ago I had a pass through at 30 yards on a buck, double lung. The holes were huge for such a small broad head, blood was heavy and part of the lung was hanging out of the side the arrow entered from (strange) . The deer went 25 yards and that was that. Lots of time was spent getting my bow tuned perfectly for broad heads. (took some time but worth it) I was going to hunt this season with Grim Reaper expendables but decided a few weeks before to tune the fixed MX3 heads. What a nice clean harvest that was. Very happy about that. I prefer fixed heads with a very well tuned bow. For now on I always broad head tune my hunting rig and get it perfect.


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## xpig777 (Apr 26, 2009)

lemonater06 said:


> I just have 1 bow(Mathews Z7) and I have it set about 63 lbs with 27 in draw shooting 28 in arrows. I am currently shooting a goldtip 5575 and it seems to be tuned in great. However I just shot a monster whitetail yesterday morning and this is the 3rd deer I have not been able to pound all the way threw (1 with 1 3/8 grim reaper and 2 with 100 gr. Rage 2 blade). (NOT ENOUGH BLOOD, DIDN't FIND IT!!!). I like having the lighter weight bow for shooting 3D I can shoot it more times. but I need to get some more punch. I can pull more weight if needed but my arrows aren't going to have enough spine if I add more weight there. Anyone have any good suggestions? Quick ways to tune if i just changed up arrows and weight for hunting season? Heavier broadhead and arrow with more poundage?


Here's what a 45# bow and the 100gr RazorTip will do. You have plenty of bow!! Don't worry just put the arrow in it's place and let the Grim Reaper take care of the rest!


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## acdc (Jul 1, 2011)

I am shooting SBXT with 27dl and 5575 goldtips and 1 3/8 razortips and have had 2 pass thrus and one into the far shoulder on Kansas bucks with all of them falling in site within 50yds.Your set up should be fine


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## BrokenLimbs (Nov 25, 2008)

The two highest penetrating expandable heads are: ExpanDead (Sanford Innovations) and Trophy Ridge Meat Seekers.
I used to hunt with Meat Seekers. This year I switched to ExpanDead. They are not perfect, but they sure destroy what they hit.

Meat Seekers are KING of penetration, but they have other issues which concern me, like not fully deploying & locking blades. You'll most certainly get pass-through though with the 1.5 (3-blade) cuts though. I dropped everything I shot at over the past few years using both the 1.5 inch and the 2 inch Trophy Ridge Meat Seekers. Due to penetration concerns, I was contemplating going back to the 1.5 Meat Seekers. Instead I chose Expandead this season. The ExpanDead heads seem to penetrate about as well as the 2 inch 3-blade Meat seekers, but when they're inside, they do a lot more cutting. A lot more.....

On the two deer that I took with ExpanDead this season (so far, fingers crossed for another), the heads made it all the way to the far side where they "almost broke skin." (One shot was 25 yards, the other was a 40 yard broad side shot.) That's why they are not perfect. IMHO, these heads should have slightly less cutting diameter along with a steeper blade. (This would give them slightly lower profile closed, a little less drag, and enable full passthrough.) I'd also suggest factory sharpening both sides of the blades. ~ With these mods, the ExpanDead would IMHO be the perfect head for whitetail.

Although, I must admit: With fully locking blades, the ExpanDead become a grappling hook in the vitals. So even though they don't seem to go all the way through, they are highly lethal. I just like an exit bleed hole, especially when I hunt from an elevated position...

I'm surprised on all the bragging about "passthrough." (Not so much in this thread, but in general.) A formal test was done in a recent bow hunting magazine which compared all the new expandables on many different criteria. Many of the popular brands didn't "fare so well" in terms of penetration depth. (Every brand flew nicely, and were less than 1 inch off where the practice tips hit though.) It's also worth noting that: ExpanDead had the most drag, but ironically still provided the most penetration with a 1.5+ inch 3 blade cutting surface.

Note: In field dressing both ExpanDead deer, I had to pierce the skin with a knife to push the arrow through and out. It was right there, under the skin on both deer. The 25 yard shot was on a bigger deer (160lb. dressed) quartered away. I am pretty sure the blades glanced the shoulder (exit side). ~ Deer was @ 60 degree angle quartered away. Had it been broadside, I am fairly certain I would have had a second exit hole at that distance. Also, with the 2 inch 3-blade Meat Seekers, I managed to slice two ribs (1 entrance & 1 exit rib) and still have arrow tip hanging out of 130lb. deer (2011) when shot broadside @ ~30 yards. Lastly, whenever I took a deer with the 1.5 inch Meat Seekers, the arrows always completely blew through the deer and hit the ground behind them hard. (So hard in fact that sometimes the head of the arrow shaft broke!) Fortunately, every "conventional" shot taken from either of these broadheads always resulted in leaving a "spray-paint" style blood trail. I shoot 72# with a 27 inch draw. (around ~425 grains total arrow weight which is probably a touch on the light side with regards to delivering KE, but they're fast/flat shooting) ~ It's a tradeoff!


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