# Joel Turner's "target panic cure" in Masters of the Barebow IV



## Lipi (Sep 9, 2014)

Hello,
I just purchased The Masters of the Barebow vol. 4 DVD and I've enjoyed Joel Turner's presentation. However, I have slight concerns regarding his "Psychotrigger" principe and I'd apreciate opinions from you, experienced archers, about it. Also, I'd appreciate any advice how I could implement this method into my own shot execution.

So first, the "psychotrigger concept":
Is there any difference between the psychotrigger (which is presented as part of a cure for target panic) and clicker panic (which itself is one form of target panic)? Everyone will tell you that clicker is only an indicator that your draw is just about right and that you should never let the click sound itself trigger your release. And yet, as I understand it, that's exactly what Joel Turner says you should do. Did I get it wrong? Or is the supposed difference in the fact that unlike clicker, the psychotrigger is supposedly activated when you are already prepared to release? 

Secondly, how could I use the psychotrigger in my shot execution?
I am WA barebow shooter, which means stringwalking - therefore I can't use as psychotrigger any part of the arrow as is sugested in Mr. Turner's presentation (the arrow changes position with different shooting distances), nor a kisser button sugested in the follow-up video (that would be against WA rules). Does anyone have an idea what part of my bow I could use as the trigger? The string does touch my face, but it does so from the moment I get to my anchor point, and by that time I am definitively not ready to release. 
Also, I have a relatively low anchor (index finger on the line of my jaw, middle finger just under the jaw) which results in the fact that unless I cant my head I can't make the string contact with my eyebrow, which¨seems to me to be another logical variation of contact/psychotrigger.

I am afraid that should I use Joel Turner's method, I'd have to change my anchor point, which I am somewhat reluctant to do unless I'm sure the benefits will outweigh the drawbacks of form change. Therefore I'd love to find a solution that would allow me to try the psychotrigger method without making significant changes to my form.

Any ideas?

(Please, excuse any irregularities in my writing, english is not my native language.)


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## lksseven (Mar 21, 2010)

Your English is superb!


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## zal (May 1, 2007)

I studied target panic a lot (I've struggled with it for years and years) when I was doing my first master's dissertation which touched on the subject of optimization of flow in psychology, autotelic personality and performance triggers.

There is no "cure" as such (like plenty of pro darts players or golfers have experienced), but there are ways to manage it. It generally involves creating a performance sequency which is easy to maintain, fast, and always 100% identical, forcing the speed if necessary. Plus endless practice. Problem is that it manifests in different ways - some freeze, some flinch, some can't even bring themselves to aim, and all these are different aspects of the issue, with different ways to cope with them.

I'd start with looking at books which cover the subject in golf, considering it is perhaps the sport with most money, which also suffers majorly from similar issues. I haven't been involved in that field of study for years, but I remember books and books on the subject from sports psychologists working in or around golf.


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## Ms.Speedmaster (Dec 10, 2010)

Lipi said:


> Does anyone have an idea what part of my bow I could use as the trigger?


Yes. None of it. 

Find a rhythm. When you have practiced that rhythm enough times, it will become subconscious. 

One of the elements I learned in NTS has really helped me in BB. That is to think of the shot cycle as a process which climbs, reaches a peak then goes over the edge to completion (The "C spot" in NTS).

Think of the process of getting to holding, i.e. braced in the bow, anchored, and before you aim, as the climb on a roller coaster. It takes some effort to get there. Then, when you are braced and holding, your blood pressure should drop a little, you will relax a little and be able to stabilize your aim*. That is the pause before the roller coaster tips over the edge. Aaaaaaaand, breaks = release.

*You will hear people say that we put too much emphasis on aiming. That's in talking about Olympic recurve. In BB, we gotta aim, and aim carefully. My biggest improvement has come about by being able to stay braced a little longer, relaxing into it and taking time to aim.


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## toj (Aug 22, 2012)

I shoot WA bare bow and also recurve and compound.
I shot recurve with a clicker ( the clicker is absolutely a trigger and not a draw check) and became conditioned to a preset routine timing wich carried over to bare bow.

As weird as it sounds when i started shooting barebow the same timing occured giving me a sort of subconscious release, when everything settled and felt right the shot just went.

Oddly the same thing occured when i started shooting compound.

What i would suggest is training with a clicker using one crawl (near the nock) and starting on a blank boss.
Watch the clicker slowly round over the end of the arrow for several ends (read hundreds) and tgen try it without.
With any luck you'll naturally release when the clicker felt like it should go.

The goal now is to get the arrow on aim before the clicker would've gone off.
You'll need to keep topping up the blank boss practice though and remember to telax through out.

As a disclaimer i'm not familiar with the dvd in question but i like to think idid ok last year shooting target barebow.


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## grantmac (May 31, 2007)

Nothing "cures" TP, but certain mental programs can keep your brain process oriented under pressure. Joel's seems to have quite a bit of success in the barebow/trad world.

Grant


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## trevorpowdrell (May 8, 2012)

Joel has some videos on YouTube. A couple address shot control. You can also check out his web site

http://www.ironmindhunting.com


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## b0w_bender (Apr 30, 2006)

Lipi said:


> Everyone will tell you that clicker is only an indicator that your draw is just about right and that you should never let the click sound itself trigger your release. And yet, as I understand it, that's exactly what Joel Turner says you should do. Did I get it wrong?


Funny I always understood that the creator of the clicker, created it to be an audible release trigger. It was a way of decoupling the release from the aiming process. Releasing on click is supposed to be Pavlovian that's why it takes a bit of practice to master it. Of course this does require that you have a consistent aim and the above comments about rhythm and practice also are very important. 

I copied this link from another thread but it is a description by the son of the inventor as to what his fathers thoughts were when he created it.
http://www.archery.org.au/FAQs/Equipment/Who-invented-the-Clicker


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## ranchoarcher (Sep 26, 2013)

That's a very interesting read on the origins and purpose of the clicker. 

There was a thread started like this in the trad section to which Joel chimed in a few times. It was said target panic had its roots in bracing for impact. It seemed a little far fetched but it was claimed to be scientifically based. I'd still like to see the science that supports the claim. TP seems to manifest itself differently but the one common denominator is it happens when you really need that X. Not really sure how bracing for impact plays into that situation.


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## b0w_bender (Apr 30, 2006)

ranchoarcher said:


> That's a very interesting read on the origins and purpose of the clicker.
> 
> There was a thread started like this in the trad section to which Joel chimed in a few times. It was said target panic had its roots in bracing for impact. It seemed a little far fetched but it was claimed to be scientifically based. I'd still like to see the science that supports the claim. TP seems to manifest itself differently but the one common denominator is it happens when you really need that X. Not really sure how bracing for impact plays into that situation.


I think most coaches are attributing TP to the fear of failure. Nearly everyone who experiences it report the symptoms don't manifest themselves if you draw the bow without an arrow. When you focus on winning you put a lot of pressure on your self to perform. That's why most coaches tell you to focus on the shot sequence the timing and the execution. The score is immaterial if you execute the shot properly scores will come. (easier said then done)


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## MartinOttosson (May 31, 2011)

I´ve always thought that Joel Turner is one of, if not the best, in the archery world to both explain and helping other archers solve their TP problems. The way he described the cause and the cure for target panic problems a couple of years ago was extremely good and effective. He helped me out among a lot of others. I think that he is the man when it comes to exploring the mind aspects of the shot and sharing his thoughts and results. I have full respect for him creating a business with Ironmind Hunting. I think he will have a full time unpaid job otherwise, just by helping archers from all over the world. The latest addon to his theories, the "bracing for recoil" and "the resistance for the brain to cause the body impact" are however statements that I can´t relate to fully. I can understand that since he is an instructor for firearms too, recoil is an important factor that he needs to be able to handle, but for archers (and even more so in golf or dart), recoil is just nothing that creates fear. If you look at a dart player with dartitis or a golfer with putting yieps, the symptoms are very similar even when there is no recoil involved what so ever. I just can´t say that I have ever felt that a fear of impact have been involved in my target panic problems through the years. I do however agree that the fear of shooting when you just hit your nose three times in a row and don´t want to do it again is pretty similar to target panic in feel, so it is for sure related atleast, but I don´t see it as the main cause. When shooting firearms, recoil bracing is for sure a huge reason for bad precision and I have also seen that among fresh compounders. So, yes, bracing for recoil is something that need consideration in archery too, but I can´t see a path to calling it the single scientifically proved cause to target panic. I do however have a clear rule in that when Joel Turner speaks, I listen, so I might need to reconsider my view on recoil bracing sometime in the future. 

My personal belief is that the fear of failure or other forms of performance anxiety does not cause target panic alone. The anxiety is a volume control rather, that amplifies errors of the shot sequence that then will go from a slight disturbance at home to a big problem in a competition. And then the anxiety for the TP itself creates even more anxiety and you are on the way down the negative spiral. Sometimes it is not the performance demands that creates the anxiety, but rather the feeling of loosing control. Therefore, an archer that shoots only in his/her backyard only and never even counts points or even have anyone knowing that they shoot, still can get severe target panic. Anxiety drives anxiety. 

The actual cause and the core of the problem is the brains natural way of automate physical sequenzies that are repeated over and over again. This is especially valid in non-triggered barebow archery. Since the brain knows that a realease will follow after getting into the point of aim, it will try to automate and streamline that, just like it does in pretty much all other stuff that we do regurarly in life. When you get past a certain point of automatization, you will feel that you loose the control of the shot. That is scary. And then you start to try to regain control. In that point you, for the first time in your sequence building, go against your brains natural instinct. The deeply rooted automatization will still be there and will fight back, creating a fight between the automatization that wants to release and the conscious mind that wants to hold on. Then you get impulse problems, at first without panic. The impulse problems then quickly causes anxiety since you loose your trust in your shooting. In the next step the anxiety converts the impulse problems to target panic. Then you are face down in the mud. So the impulses created by the automatization causes you to be insecure about yourself as an archer, and THEN the anxiety builds up, not the other way around. You can say that the anxiety builds the panic part of target panic, but it´s the panic free impulse reaction that causes the anxiety in the first place. 

You can have performance anxiety to a level that you sh*t in your pants and feel so nervous that you can't spell your name right, but if the sequence is not automated enough, you will not get target panic anyway. In that situation, you most like will shoot with stiff fingers, make stupid mistakes and shake like a leaf, but that is symptoms of beeing extremely nervous and not from target panic. People often mix up those things. If I, beeing no golfer, would be put in a situation where I could win a million dollars with a single putt, I would be nervous as hell and probably would not be able to put the ball in the hole because of shaky legs, but I would not experience what diehard golfers would call yieps. If I would train evey day for two years and do thousands and thousands of putts, and then return to that green with the same circumstances, the risk of getting yieps would be much higher. 

A clicker or a release aid are two very efficient tools to force yourself to add a mandatory physical step in your shot sequence, making it a lot harder for the brain to automate that part of the sequence. It can still be done however if you perform your mental shot in the wrong way and repeat that a couple of thousand times. It´s by no means impossible to get target panic with a clicker or a release aid (or with Turners trigger method mentioned above), but you will be a lot less vulnerable to it as long as you know how to correctly set and hold your mental focus in the shot. A archer that uses a clicker or a release aid have to do things more wrong or do the same mistakes during a longer time, than a barebow/longbow archer to get the same level of target panic, in my eyes. On the other hand, even small amounts of TP can result in a huge drop in where you end up in a result list, since the margin for error is a lot smaller in olympic recurve or compound. Triggerless archery is by far the hardest shooting style when it comes to keeping target panic away.


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## beleg2 (Dec 31, 2005)

Incredible insight Martin (as usual).
Joel helps me more than any other with my TP. 
Im still working on it but IMHO Joel system is the way.
Martin


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## Lipi (Sep 9, 2014)

Thank you all for the insightful responses.

It seems I'll have to study some more about the use of clicker, but it will probably be the way I'll try next. (As soon as I get to cutting my arrows to a length usable for this.)

As for psychological reasoning about the causes of target panic, I still like the explanation by Dr. Kidwell in Instinctive Archery Insights best. (Unfortunately, I had no success with his method. After three weeks and almost three thousands not-released arrows - and I was pretty sure I got rid of both freezing and the tendency to release the moment I finally get to the gold - it took me only three or four sets of arrows shot on the target to be exactly where I'd been before the excersise. I couldn't overcome the difference between a shot sequence with the knowledge that it will not lead to a release and a shot sequence that included the anticipation of releasing towards the target.)

As for finding a shot rythm: While I agree it's important and it should be part of every archer's training, when I first learned about it, I was already freezing (though at the time I didn't realise it was indicator of greater problems lying ahead) and I havent been able to take aim in any measured time. So I gave up trying to get a constant rythm soon. Perhaps once I'll learn aiming mostly subconsciously, I'll be able to get regular rythm in my shot execution.

Anyway, while I didn't get much insights on Mr. Turner's method (which was the gist of what I wanted to get from this), I got a lot to think about from you, and thank you for that. (And Martin Ottosson's post was great - as usually.)


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## Ms.Speedmaster (Dec 10, 2010)

I've seen great archers, with no mental game issues, turn into a wreck because... they were just over thinking the shot. Yes, we talk about the mental game to give you the competitive edge, but it's easy to confuse that with staying in your head and not trusting the shot. 

I even believe that we shouldn't name the issue. It's like thinking about breathing. We all know what that does. Once we give a found puppy a name, you know you're going to own it. 

Lipi, when you get on top of this, and you will, may the joy of archery return in abundance.


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## Bigjono (Apr 21, 2009)

Mmmmm, I did some research on Joel's methods a couple of years ago, they seemed very solid but being a stubborn git I decided to just tough it out myself. In hindsight that was a bad move so I will re visit Joel's system again I think.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## MartinOttosson (May 31, 2011)

Ms.Speedmaster said:


> I even believe that we shouldn't name the issue. It's like thinking about breathing. We all know what that does. Once we give a found puppy a name, you know you're going to own it.


The method of ignoring the problem and hide it under the carpet have been tried over and over again with no success. It´s a dead end. Getting target panic is more or less the natural development for a barebow archer that don´t know how to prevent it. I have countless examples of new archers that have no idea target panic exists, and even less they have a name for it, but still it hits them like a hammer in the head. In that moment, they think they are the all alone idiot that cant keep the string like everyone else does. If you tell them about the phenomenon, they atleast know from that point that it´s something well known and cureable. The best way to avoid new archers to get into the impulse problems is to make sure they integrate shot control exercises in their training by ordering them to do so. No new archer will do aiming and backtension focused exercises by their own will, since its so boring. They don´t need to understand why, as long as they spend atleast 5 minutes per training doing it.

I have yet not seen a new archer that realize the small warning signs of upcoming very difficult problems. By hiding and ignoring the problem of target panic, you will cause the new archer to really let the mental mistakes set deep before they actually become a really noticable problem. If you inform them in time, you will make sure that they are not going to fall that far down, and therefore they are going to be a lot easier to help. I vote for keeping the new archers informed, but keep the drama out of your voice when you do. Target Panic might sound frightening, but it also makes archery interesting. I am not afraid of it at all, and I even shoot deliberately with target panic once in a while just to make sure that I remember how it feels, since I regurarly help other archers to cure themselves. I can really enjoy the feeling of turning the TP on and off between shots. It gives me the feeling of total control. For me, it is actually harder to turn on TP than to turn it off in a pressured situation, like when I am doing a seminar and shoot on a stage.


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## DWilloughby (Dec 26, 2014)

Great read as always Martin. I would suggest anyone dealing with TP go and research what Martin has posted here and other sites. His concepts, along with others, is what started me with methods to manage TP. It takes a tremendous about of commitment and work, depending upon the severity. It is an unbelievable feeling to shoot with control when you have shot out of control for so long.

I also have respect for Joel and his teachings but do not agree on all of them and I do not want to use a trigger. I'm open minded and try to learn something from everyone and have learned from Joel.

I teach all new archers about having a controlled execution because I do not want them to progress into a mental battle for every arrow. It is a sure way to end fun in archery.

It is a never-ending staircase to shoot with good form and control. There is always one more step, one more challenge to getting better. Never let up.

Thanks again Marin for all your help!


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Martin is spot-on.

The idea that we can't talk about TP only makes those who are afflicted by it (read - everyone at some point) feel even worse, and without anywhere to turn.

Fact is, if you shoot archery long enough and ever decide to set goals for yourself, you WILL eventually suffer from some version of TP. If you only shoot occasionally, and if you never set definite goals, then no worries. 

IMO, goal setting - whether conscious or subconscious, written or not, is the precursor to TP. 

So then what needs to happen is a plan to deal with it. And there are plenty of ways to deal with it. But ignoring it and denying it usually lead to archers dropping out of the sport. One of my most promising students in the past 5 years went through three coaches (including me) because she and her mother could not admit the young lady was suffering from TP. They had been convinced it was not something to talk about, and that one should never admit to having it. So eventually every coach she had identified the problem and was straight with her, which was the beginning of the end for that relationship, and then it was the coach's fault and they were off to the next coach.

Darn shame too because she could have been very good.



> keep the drama out of your voice when you do. Target Panic might sound frightening, but it also makes archery interesting.


I personally love this approach.


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## Ms.Speedmaster (Dec 10, 2010)

MartinOttosson said:


> I vote for keeping the new archers informed, but keep the drama out of your voice when you do. Target Panic might sound frightening, but it also makes archery interesting.


I couldn't agree more. Great post. 

I do need to clarify that I wouldn't dream of ignoring an issue, but I choose to address it in a different way. 

TP has gotten a reputation much akin to an STD. I have seen it put the fear of God into archers, when someone/they have decided they've got a "case of the TP". It can have as deep of a psychological impact as the issue itself. Especially when the internet is full of stories of archers quitting because they could never get over their TP. When the reality is that many cases differ from each other and need different solutions. 

So, name it appropriately. e.g. this person needs to learn how to control the clicker, instead of letting the clicker control them. 

Admittedly, I do not have anywhere near the experience of many on this thread. Maybe in five years I'll see it differently.


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## grantmac (May 31, 2007)

Martin,

Brilliant as usual, I frequently think I need to just start printing your posts and putting them in a binder.

Are you using any sort of external trigger for either practice or competition? Or have you gone with an internal control method?

I think I need to get off my backside and call Joel, I'll be living in his state next month so perhaps some coaching.

Grant


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## b0w_bender (Apr 30, 2006)

MartinOttosson said:


> I´ve always thought that Joel Turner is one of, if not the best, in the archery world to both explain and helping other archers solve their TP problems. The way he described the cause and the cure for target panic problems a couple of years ago was extremely good and effective. He helped me out among a lot of others. I think that he is the man when it comes to exploring the mind aspects of the shot and sharing his thoughts and results. I have full respect for him creating a business with Ironmind Hunting. I think he will have a full time unpaid job otherwise, just by helping archers from all over the world. The latest addon to his theories, the "bracing for recoil" and "the resistance for the brain to cause the body impact" are however statements that I can´t relate to fully. I can understand that since he is an instructor for firearms too, recoil is an important factor that he needs to be able to handle, but for archers (and even more so in golf or dart), recoil is just nothing that creates fear. If you look at a dart player with dartitis or a golfer with putting yieps, the symptoms are very similar even when there is no recoil involved what so ever. I just can´t say that I have ever felt that a fear of impact have been involved in my target panic problems through the years. I do however agree that the fear of shooting when you just hit your nose three times in a row and don´t want to do it again is pretty similar to target panic in feel, so it is for sure related atleast, but I don´t see it as the main cause. When shooting firearms, recoil bracing is for sure a huge reason for bad precision and I have also seen that among fresh compounders. So, yes, bracing for recoil is something that need consideration in archery too, but I can´t see a path to calling it the single scientifically proved cause to target panic. I do however have a clear rule in that when Joel Turner speaks, I listen, so I might need to reconsider my view on recoil bracing sometime in the future.
> 
> My personal belief is that the fear of failure or other forms of performance anxiety does not cause target panic alone. The anxiety is a volume control rather, that amplifies errors of the shot sequence that then will go from a slight disturbance at home to a big problem in a competition. And then the anxiety for the TP itself creates even more anxiety and you are on the way down the negative spiral. Sometimes it is not the performance demands that creates the anxiety, but rather the feeling of loosing control. Therefore, an archer that shoots only in his/her backyard only and never even counts points or even have anyone knowing that they shoot, still can get severe target panic. Anxiety drives anxiety.
> 
> ...


Yup I have to say that his is an excellent explanation of what happens. For many people it becomes a snowball affect. Fortunately for me the bouts of target panic I've experienced only seem to manifest themselves when I compete.


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## OCBrent (Sep 27, 2007)

Lipi said:


> Thank you all for the insightful responses.
> 
> As for psychological reasoning about the causes of target panic, I still like the explanation by Dr. Kidwell in Instinctive Archery Insights best. (Unfortunately, I had no success with his method. After three weeks and almost three thousands not-released arrows - and I was pretty sure I got rid of both freezing and the tendency to release the moment I finally get to the gold - it took me only three or four sets of arrows shot on the target to be exactly where I'd been before the excersise. I couldn't overcome the difference between a shot sequence with the knowledge that it will not lead to a release and a shot sequence that included the anticipation of releasing towards the target.)


"Intellectually" I liked Dr. Kidwell's explanations too. But, like you I did the various Exercises/drills for at least a year, but never "found a cure". The Web pages he had for this are broken links now.

I once fooled my brain enough to shoot a competition PB 312 & 308 (70M), NOT using the Clicker (pulling through and holding, Olympic bow setup). In Practice up to 318, But my brain figured out how to "Panic/Yip" with that form change, and I've yet to return to a solid controlled shot. 

If you find something in "Turner's methods" that works long term for you, let us know! On his website I see he's selling a "Science of Target Panic book".

Brent


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## OCBrent (Sep 27, 2007)

Lipi said:


> Hello,
> I just purchased The Masters of the Barebow vol. 4 DVD and I've enjoyed Joel Turner's presentation. However, I have slight concerns regarding his "Psychotrigger" principe and I'd apreciate opinions from you, experienced archers, about it. Also, I'd appreciate any advice how I could implement this method into my own shot execution.
> 
> So first, the "psychotrigger concept":
> ...


So, I'm not familiar with Joel's methods at all. That being said, it looks like in the following video (1:05) he is doing something with his 4th bow hand finger as a "trigger/signal"? Maybe someone familiar could expand on that? That would seem to be independent of using a button or clicker or...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yWq2Qpq9reA

Brent


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## beleg2 (Dec 31, 2005)

Good sight!!!
This is a kind of grip trigger.
In this case he put the nail of his ring finger on the edge of the grip.
When he is aiming and ready for the shot, he press the finger until it disengage (this is the clicker) and he releases subcociously.
I’m still working on it. LOL.
Martin


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## beleg2 (Dec 31, 2005)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R7kDRQJgMPU

Also on minute 8:10 you can see the mylar trigger.
Martin


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## Laurie Borealis (Mar 10, 2012)

Martin, thank you. So much. It was a relief to read what you wrote. I just shot U.S. Nationals with severe target panic. The bottom fell out of my score, but the feeling of utter loss of control was worse than the embarrassment of having that score posted. When it wasn't my turn to shoot, I would walk outside, lean my back against the wall and look at the sun on the hills in Chula Vista and cry, and then I'd walk back in and shoot. I've been fighting target panic for two years, and it's amazing how many people will make comments about it that make you feel like you have a defective brain or a defective personality, or who will tell you that no such thing as target panic exists, that it's just an excuse for bad form. Or that you should never say those two words. After reading this thread, I contacted Joel Turner and am signed up to take his clinic in mid-March. I am lucky he is only a two-hour drive away for me, and his texts to me made me smile. I'll let you guys know how it goes. Or maybe you'll be able to tell from my scores.


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## Ms.Speedmaster (Dec 10, 2010)

Laurie Borealis said:


> When it wasn't my turn to shoot, I would walk outside, lean my back against the wall and look at the sun on the hills in Chula Vista and cry, and then I'd walk back in and shoot.


Oh, my dear Laurie. :sad:

I admire you immensely for still going out there to shoot. There are those who would not, and do not.



> Or that you should never say those two words.


Those were pretty much my words. I am so sorry if I caused you offense. You know that would not be my intention.

Will be very interested to hear about your time with Joel.
:hug:


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## Laurie Borealis (Mar 10, 2012)

No worries, Ms Speedmaster, I surely know there is no intent to harm by you, my friend. I have heard the same thing many times before, including from someone who is visibly disintegrating from target panic. Not saying the words seems to be the USA Archery approach... Maybe that's unfair but I don't feel they have a handle on it the way Martin does. I have heard from multiple sources that Kisik Lee had (or has) serious target panic and I am very curious about whether he was able to control it, whether he still has it, and whether he shoots anymore, even privately.


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## beleg2 (Dec 31, 2005)

Hi Laurie,
Good you contacted Joel, he is the one we need to fight TP. I have his book but a clinic is even better.
About "Not saying the words seems to be the USA Archery approach", it is the aproach everywhere, here in Argentina too.
Let us know how it works.

BTW: Martin is an incredible guy, top nock archer but you can chat by internet and he take the time to help and explain what he knows.
From time to time i simply search his posts and read them, i lern a lot from him.


Martin


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## Ms.Speedmaster (Dec 10, 2010)

Laurie Borealis said:


> Not saying the words seems to be the USA Archery approach... Maybe that's unfair but I don't feel they have a handle on it the way Martin does.


It is not really the USAA approach. It is talked about openly in symposiums and at my recent visit to Chula Vista. It is recognized as an actual phenomenon. I was the one sat in the room, thinking to myself "stop calling it target panic and talk about the actual symptoms and solutions".

I have had what most would define as target panic, where I could not stop myself from shooting. Sometimes hardly at anchor, and often without aiming properly. I have overcome that by applying what I defined earlier in the thread, along with the absorption of Lanny Bassham's MMS via the audio CDs.



> I have heard from multiple sources that Kisik Lee had (or has) serious target panic and I am very curious about whether he was able to control it, whether he still has it, and whether he shoots anymore, even privately.


Yes, he is a self confessed TP victim. He promotes the use of the NTS (and that has to be qualified with the understanding of how it is applied) to overcome and cure target TP. As to whether he is totally cured or shoots privately? Great question.


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## Don_Parsons (Feb 9, 2018)

Tag


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## Mercail (Sep 20, 2016)

I am currently dealing with target panic and I agree with a lot of the posts here, it seems that it's an association with aiming device (arrow point in this case) hitting yellow that causes an unwanted reaction. In my case it's an automatic, uncontrolled release. My brain has started to cope by locking my aiming device off target and not letting me bring my arrow point where it needs to be. This tends to cause a lot of flinch shots, where I raise my bow hand at the last second or end up releasing prematurely with everything impacting low.

I've taken Joel Turner's online course and find that it helps immensely. He also talks a lot about target panic when he is on The Push podcast, I recommend listening to a few episodes if you want to hear him talk about target panic (for free!).

I've started integrating exercises into my practice sessions that disassociate point-on with releasing the string and am currently using a grip seer (plastic washer tucked between my grip and riser that I can activate with my ring finger) with pretty good results. If you're looking to do any clicker practice to do the same, try a limb mounted clicker before cutting your arrows as it's less permanent.

http://www.lancasterarchery.com/klickety-klick-clicker.html

That's an example you could try and should be easy to install/remove whenever necessary.

Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk


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## Mercail (Sep 20, 2016)

Funny enough, The Push just published a how to video of Joel adding a grip sear to Tim's bow.

https://youtu.be/iR7KE8bF7jU

Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk


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## tunedlow (Nov 7, 2012)

Laurie Borealis said:


> Martin, thank you. So much. It was a relief to read what you wrote. I just shot U.S. Nationals with severe target panic. The bottom fell out of my score, but the feeling of utter loss of control was worse than the embarrassment of having that score posted. When it wasn't my turn to shoot, I would walk outside, lean my back against the wall and look at the sun on the hills in Chula Vista and cry, and then I'd walk back in and shoot. I've been fighting target panic for two years, and it's amazing how many people will make comments about it that make you feel like you have a defective brain or a defective personality, or who will tell you that no such thing as target panic exists, that it's just an excuse for bad form. Or that you should never say those two words. After reading this thread, I contacted Joel Turner and am signed up to take his clinic in mid-March. I am lucky he is only a two-hour drive away for me, and his texts to me made me smile. I'll let you guys know how it goes. Or maybe you'll be able to tell from my scores.


Kudos to you for still getting out there and shooting. I can relate to your feeling about target panic. I've experienced really bad bouts with TP but what made it worse was 1) not knowing that it is, 2) not knowing how to manage it, and 3) not knowing how to fix things about your process on the spot. I feel that working with TP comes with time because TP isn't just a mental component of your shooting, it is worsened by bad form issues and these compound in effect. I had my worst shooting experience at a tournament and nothing was worse than not knowing what was happening and seeing your arrows litter the shooting field or get stuck on the bale stand and not know how to right yourself with the proper strategy. I went through a complete deconstruction of technique from that day onwards in order to learn everything I could about my technique, TP, how to address deficiencies in tournaments and optimization of my shooting form/mental game.


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## Elmosaurus (Sep 15, 2010)

This ongoing conversation brings up a very interesting question I want to ask of the veteran archers and coaches. Specifically, because I am beginning to feel the touches of anxiety and panic myself lately. (based on the wisdom I've read and learned from others, I really want to try to embrace it and keep ahead of the curve here...)

_In order to be a top level shooter, is this a trial that every person must go through?_

Asked another way, is there a top level recurve or barebow shooter that can honestly say they have never had TP?

If we can openly answer that question, I suspect that will change the way most in the sport view the topic; I'd think that when it becomes part of the growth curve, it will lose most of its stigma, and become just another challenge to learn about and overcome; like how someone learns anchor, or grip, or backtension. (albeit a way more difficult thing to learn...)

- Elton


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## chrstphr (Nov 23, 2005)

grantmac said:


> Nothing "cures" TP, but certain mental programs can keep your brain process oriented under pressure. Joel's seems to have quite a bit of success in the barebow/trad world.
> 
> Grant


I respectfully disagree. I have cured it in archers completely. One female archer had TP so bad she couldnt even anchor. She shot uncontrollably before the string got anywhere near her face. If you anchored her, she couldnt shoot at all. She was frozen. 

That was 4 or 5 years ago. I worked with her and she cured it in 4 to 6 months back then. 

She has shot well the past few years. This past weekend, she won her recurve division at her region and finished very high nationally. Very high. 

She shoots with no sign or symptom of target panic. and hasnt for a few years. If anyone would like to talk with her about it, i am sure she would be fine with that. Just pm me. And she is not the only one. 

Even though this video is focused on Olympic recurve with a sight, i have used this method with bare bow archers with success as well. 

might be of use in this thread.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YFGV6sUFbXE&t=8s





Chris


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## archer_nm (Mar 29, 2004)

Thank you Chris this is the best coaching for TP I have seen to date


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## grantmac (May 31, 2007)

Chris,

Can she do it under pressure without a clicker? Because most high level barebow shooters would tend to disagree with a cure.


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## chrstphr (Nov 23, 2005)

I have a adult who is on the USA Masters team. He has had target panic in the past. He is using my method now. Seems to be working for him. He didnt seem to have an target panic issues at indoor nationals this past weekend and shot well.

He shoots barebow and doesnt use a clicker.

I have not had an archer yet that i couldnt cure in 4-6 months using my method. That is not to say it cant happen. My pool of target panic archers is extremely small compared to the pool of archers who have it.

I will be the first to admit that. That is why i said, my video might be useful.


Chris


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## Stephen Morley (Aug 11, 2016)

One of the greatest challenges of Barebow is controlling the shot without a clicker, considering the accuracy/consistency of the top shooters I admire their skill and dedication as much as the top Freestyle and Compound shooters.

My personal issues with TP back in 2001with Longbow took me on an interesting journey, at the time it was a curse but the work I put in eventually made me a better shot.

I did some training with Korean Coach Kim when he visited, he told me the secret is total confidence and discipline in the shot sequence.

It seems to me the mind is like a meandering river, always searching for the route or least resistance, it takes work to keep the shot sequence disciplined. I work on my sequence to keep control of my TP, I can feel it creeping up on me, the sequence starts to feel like a runaway train, having an overwhelming desire to release when I get on aim, when this feeling comes I work on my sequence to regain the feeling that the arrow can float in the spot as long as it needs.

Everyone is different but having faith in the shot sequence goes a long way to getting you back on track with control.


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## Nick1959 (Apr 30, 2003)

Believing in your shot sequence is the key for me.
I like to release when I get on target. (barebow)
Forcing myself to aim and then pull makes a difference.
When everything is going right I have ends like this.








When I weaken mentally ... well you can see the other holes in my target.
Certainly a journey... but still having fun with Barebow.


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## ryan b. (Sep 1, 2005)

A lot of differences in opinion here are simply due to shooter proficiency. 10yds seems “far enough” or a paper read “is good enough” for some people, while other people feel anything under 30yds is basically going to lead to grief and hard to read scenarios. Other people can’t even imagine shooting a bareshaft at 30 let alone 50 or 70. Who’s asking (proficiency. Ie scores) and to whom are you offering advice (again , different advice for different skill levels. Also, folks who don’t pay attention or use 30m bareshaft tunes are most likely not shooting those distances anyway. The people who are advocating NOT using paper tears and not to use bareshaft tuning at 20 or under but instead only use 20yds as a rough guide and instead BS at 30-70m are generally the people who are regularly shooting 70m. The guy who’s shooting a 200-220 300rnd isn’t going to be comfortable shooting bareshafts (or groups with fletched) at 50m anyway. I think this is where the advice of “good enough on the tune”, “now go work on technique” often comes in. 
I’m not arguing either way. My 2cents is based on the scenario/shooter at hand.


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## Jim Casto Jr (Aug 20, 2002)

OCBrent said:


> So, I'm not familiar with Joel's methods at all. That being said, it looks like in the following video (1:05) he is doing something with his 4th bow hand finger as a "trigger/signal"? Maybe someone familiar could expand on that? That would seem to be independent of using a button or clicker or...
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yWq2Qpq9reA
> 
> Brent



He calls it a grip sear. You can simply use your fingernail on the edge of the riser.... keep pressing, keep pressing, keep pressing, until the nail slips from the edge of the riser, then you can release. It's so much easier to be loaded and not have to try to pull thru a clicker. I've been using it for a few months and it has me "in control" for the first time in several years.

He... and others, use a washer or something else on the riser, but it's not really needed. I doubt that it would be legal in WA barebow, but there's nothing that says you can't slip your fingernail from the edge of the riser. 

I've got a couple videos in my computer of how Joel uses his. If you'd like to see it, PM me your email address and send them to you.


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