# Backtension as told to me from Chance, Nathan and Eric Griggs



## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

Rather than trying to find the old thread. These guys say there basicly keeping everthing completly still and turning the release. JUst that simple as told by all three. I have videoed and watched them for year.

Sometimes dont make it harder than it is.

Watch the videos. Body totally not moving, simple turning the wrist to activate the release which has to happen.:wink:

Click on video

http://s194.photobucket.com/albums/z289/okiebwhtr/Archers/?action=view&current=Picture129.mp4

http://s194.photobucket.com/albums/z289/okiebwhtr/Archers/?action=view&current=Picture009.mp4


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## 3-d buster x4 (Feb 12, 2011)

thanks for the vid's D.B. :thumbs_up 

i cant see cheating a release that was ment to learn by pulling through your shot .... ill keep pulling through the shot and learning how to use the release the proper way ...


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## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

Eric Griggs

http://s194.photobucket.com/albums/z289/okiebwhtr/Archers/?action=view&current=Picture1658.mp4

Ever get a chance ask these guys and sometimes you find it not a big secret and just not that diffiacult. Keep it simple may be the best phrase in archery.


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## wolf44 (Mar 31, 2009)

don't you already know that rotating the release is cheating....the release doesn't have to rotate to go off, it just magically defy's the laws of physics and engineering and goes off on its own


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## vipper1967 (Jun 23, 2005)

that seem so much more simple!!


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## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

Watch Dan Macarthey here his body never moves and actually he isnt turrning the release that much. 

Sometimes it just that simple. 

http://s194.photobucket.com/albums/z289/okiebwhtr/Archers/?action=view&current=Picture120.mp4


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## Alpha Burnt (Sep 12, 2005)

I swear, I really like Nutsandbolts version of how to. There are many ways to say it, but his seems the clearest and easiest to understand. If you pull through the shot, you ARE rotating the release-but not CONSCIOUSLY.


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## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

wolf44 said:


> don't you already know that rotating the release is cheating....the release doesn't have to rotate to go off, it just magically defy's the laws of physics and engineering and goes off on its own


Interesting and some will certianly explain it that way! Heard many times. I just say to me a hinge has to rotate to fire.
Why not keep everthing perfecty still and rotate it. Thats just how most explain it to me. 
DB


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## wsbark01 (Feb 26, 2009)

So if you rotate your wrist then you are not using back tension then correct?


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## cartman308 (Aug 12, 2006)

I think it's all sorcery! lol 

Thanks for the simple explanation DB! I've been thinking about giving BT another shot. First and last time I punched myself in the face.........


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## Andy. (Jan 12, 2011)

Rotating like a clock on the wall or like a clock laying on a table. Just trying to figure what plane they are rotating on. 

Twisting wrist clockwise or relaxing index and pull with pinky?


Andy


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## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

wsbark01 said:


> So if you rotate your wrist then you are not using back tension then correct?


This is how its told to me. Call it what you want. Im saying anytime you pull a bow you got tension in the back. But these guys just simple rotate there wrist. Hold on target and keep everthing in the body still except the release which simple turns by rotating the wrist. Any release can be shot this way. Follow through after the shot of course always.
DB


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## 91bravo (Oct 31, 2009)

Rotating the release is like triggering it to go off. Back tension is using back tension. I squeeze my shoulder blades together and pull my elbow back and sort of down. This in essence "rotates" the release, but I don't believe in just standing still and just "rotating" the release. I use more muscles than just my wrist muscles. I pull back and down, squeeze my back muscles together and it looks like I'm standing perfectly still too! It just comes naturally to me I guess.


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## bsharkey (Apr 27, 2009)

this is why you have to love AT even when the pros tell you how something is done the weekender will still tell you your wrong you guys rule :wink:
DB how can the pro's be right when the AT faithful say's dey b wrong?


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## Alpha Burnt (Sep 12, 2005)

How many commands do you want your brain to be giving while your pin is floating on the dot? I might be wrong, but the fewer, the better when it comes to my brain:thumbs_up


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## Easykeeper (Jan 2, 2003)

Nice videos, you can really learn a lot just watching top shooters at their game.

It would be interesting to know how these same shooters activate a thumb trigger, if and when they use one. I agree with DB that just holding the bow at full draw requires back tension, the question is how is the release rotation achieved? By a small pull with the ring or pinky finger or a relaxing of the index finger. I usually shoot a thumb trigger so I'd like to know how the same guys transition from a hinge to a thumb.


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## elkhunter (Jun 7, 2002)

When I initially bought my TruBall Sweetspot when they first came out, I tried it both ways, and it didn't take me but one session to make my mind up, that rotating the release worked best for me.


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## jeeperforlife (Jun 20, 2007)

Ive noticed when watching Braden shoot that you can watch the release rotate as hes letting off the peg, and almost immediately after his thumb clears the peg, the release lets go. Ive tried that method and the results were sporadic. Im all for keeping it simple but i also believe there's more than one way to skin a cat. Just my 2


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## tpcowfish (Aug 11, 2008)

Hmmm ... now what, Like Andy^ asked, more detail ? Might be a little confusing for those just learning:


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## Reed (Jun 18, 2002)

while tecnicoly (sp) the the "correct" method to shoot a trigerless release, that way would be the easest to transition from that to a thumb release. Dont think you would ever get a resistance release like the evolution to go off that way. As someone else said, more than one "correct" was to triger the release


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## AR&BOW (May 24, 2009)

91bravo said:


> Rotating the release is like triggering it to go off. Back tension is using back tension. I squeeze my shoulder blades together and pull my elbow back and sort of down. This in essence "rotates" the release, but I don't believe in just standing still and just "rotating" the release. I use more muscles than just my wrist muscles. I pull back and down, squeeze my back muscles together and it looks like I'm standing perfectly still too! It just comes naturally to me I guess.


Not saying right or wrong, but when you squeeze muscles and pull back and down with the elbow you are also pulling on the bow. If you can draw and get locked in, concentrate on the "x" and rotated the wrist a tiny bit, your muscles are more relaxed and you are not pulling on the bow at all. I am no expert for sure, but in working on BT that is what I have found. People call it cheating which has made it harder for me to accept as a method, but it works better for me anyway and glad to know what the pros are doing. Thanks DB.


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## J Moore (Nov 17, 2011)

bsharkey said:


> this is why you have to love AT even when the pros tell you how something is done the weekender will still tell you your wrong you guys rule :wink:
> DB how can the pro's be right when the AT faithful say's dey b wrong?


Hahaha, I like it


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## dw'struth (Mar 14, 2008)

Sorry, I don't buy it. If they were not using their back muscles to fire the shot, their release elbows wouldn't be flying straight back as they are. I definately do not see any "wrist rotation", and probably never will in shooters at their level.


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## dw'struth (Mar 14, 2008)

bsharkey said:


> this is why you have to love AT even when the pros tell you how something is done the weekender will still tell you your wrong you guys rule :wink:
> DB how can the pro's be right when the AT faithful say's dey b wrong?


I must have missed where the pro's posted on this thread..........


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## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

dw'struth said:


> Sorry, I don't buy it. If they were not using their back muscles to fire the shot, their release elbows wouldn't be flying straight back as they are. I definately do not see any "wrist rotation", and probably never will in shooters at their level.


So you do not believe these guys when they say this? Wrist has to rotate for a hinge release to fire and this is exactly how these guys explain it.
DB


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## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

dw'struth said:


> I must have missed where the pro's posted on this thread..........


Im quessing you dont believe any of this! Ill do a search and get Eric Griggs post for you on my thread.

You do realize how good these guys are and there trying to help archers by giving us this information right.

Dean Pridgen makes archery so simple and maybe this is why he was one of the best ever in this sport.

Dont over think it!
DB


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## bsharkey (Apr 27, 2009)

dw'struth said:


> I must have missed where the pro's posted on this thread..........


the pros were the videos that DB posted


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## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

jeeperforlife said:


> Ive noticed when watching Braden shoot that you can watch the release rotate as hes letting off the peg, and almost immediately after his thumb clears the peg, the release lets go. Ive tried that method and the results were sporadic. Im all for keeping it simple but i also believe there's more than one way to skin a cat. Just my 2


I have a video of Braden and yes I feel he pulls on his release with that release of his set at 4lbs pull. Amazing how still he is though in his video. I do feel he shoots the index release the best way. But hard to argue with Dietmier and how he shoots his.
DB


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## dw'struth (Mar 14, 2008)

Not saying that, I just think there is a little more to it. In the GRIV article you kindly posted, and every other one that I have read, it instructs us to keep as much tension out of our arms, hands, and wrists that we can. Their wrists may be rotating slightly, but, at this point in time, I do not think it is because the make a consious effort to rotate it. But, it is more of an effect, and the cause would be the pressure from the back muscles. 

Having said this, I have seen video of pros that rotate the hinge fairly rapidly after coming to anchor. But then, as I see it, they stop all of that movement when the clicker goes off and just pull. Again.....just the way that I understand it at this time.


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## EGriggs (Mar 11, 2003)

Hey Dan. I saw this post and thought I'd jump in (at the risk of being told I've been doing it wrong all these years... )

Let me start by saying that shooting a triggerless back tension release is something that will ultimately be done differently for many people. My method isn't one that will work for everyone, but anyone who's ever struggled to shoot a BT release would be doing themselves a favor just to keep an open mind and try it. 

For starters, I like to set my releases up with a good amount of travel. Setting the release light in my opinion is not much different than using a click. I don't care for a click personally, but I can't argue with the success that some have achieved shooting it either. The idea behind setting the release up with travel is so that you know that you have to "work" through the release to get it to fire. There is no worries about the shot prematurely firing and no concerns of being too tentative due to the release being set too light. Next, when activating the release and throughout the shot process, there is actual "back tension" being used. You maintain and sometimes even build that back tension throughout the shot process, but that's not ultimately what fires the release. Rotation of the release is what makes it fire. I'm not saying to crank your wrist or to move your arm and elbow to get it to rotate, but to simply apply pressure with your fingers all the while not applying and sometime even slightly relaxing your index finger. It's basically transitioning the load of the release from the index finger to the other fingers on the release. Some people feel like they're "cranking" the release or having to really move a long ways, but that's fine. One you get the basic concept of the rotation and staying active throughout the shot process you can set the speed of the release to your comfort. 

The reason I like this method comes back to the aiming process. As we aim at the target, too often we allow what the pin is doing to affect the way we execute the shot (basically the root of target panic). While we all want to aim better and more steady, the sad truth is we can't at that given moment. Trying to make the pin more steady won't result in anything but additional movement. So, since we can't control the sight picture we simply won't worry about it. We'll just aim the bow and let the natural correction process to happen. Now we can focus on the execution because the only thing that we can actually control during the shot process is our execution. Regardless of what the sight pin/picture looks like we can still do ourselves the justice of executing the best possible shot we can each and every time we draw our bow back. That's really all we can do. The rest will come. This is where the method I use for shooting the release comes in. I know when I draw my bow back that the only thing I have to do is to execute the best shot I can. And I do this by slowly rotating my release and don't stop until the release fires. The pin will move, but I don't stop the movement and rotation. With this movement I know that regardless of the scenario I'm in I will do the same thing each and every time. If I had my release set so that it was very light or if I was using a click, I could very easily get tentative in a pressure situation because I know that the release would be very close to firing. With the extra travel, I know I have to be aggressive so that removes the tentativeness that I might otherwise encounter. And one of the biggest things about shooting with a lot of travel in your release is to just make sure it's slow steady movement. Some people want to really ramp up at the beginning and then end up slowing or stopping towards the end before it fires. Start slow and finish slow, but keep the same speed throughout the shot and be patient. 

Like I mentioned, the above isn't for everyone, but I've worked with many people that benefited a lot from this. Once somebody can grasp this style, I also think it becomes easier to understand and correctly shoot other styles as well due to the fact that this sort of simplifies the entire shot process. 

Hope this can help some of you!!! :wink:


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## dw'struth (Mar 14, 2008)

bsharkey said:


> the pros were the videos that DB posted


Again, I didn't see any big movement. Maybe my moniter sucks! lol


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## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

EGriggs said:


> Hey Dan. I saw this post and thought I'd jump in (at the risk of being told I've been doing it wrong all these years... )
> 
> Let me start by saying that shooting a triggerless back tension release is something that will ultimately be done differently for many people. My method isn't one that will work for everyone, but anyone who's ever struggled to shoot a BT release would be doing themselves a favor just to keep an open mind and try it.
> 
> ...


Thanks Eric and I did find your post from a longtime ago from Oakridge ASA Pro am. I still have guys tell me thanks for posting this back then and it helped them in there quest for BT release. I do think it finding what works for you but I do appreceite any tips you guys give anyone! Often when someone pm's me I refer them to this thread. Oringinal thread went wild and I exspect this one to do the same but hope everyone can disscuss it rational. 
DB


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## rick prather (Aug 23, 2007)

thanks for the vids DB.i agree with the kiss theory.logic says something has to rotate.like a fine rifleshot,when the release is near the edge they know it.soon it will fire,are all the things i'm supposed to do -done?that's where most fail.it's like building blocks...keep it simple stupid...kiss


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## 91bravo (Oct 31, 2009)

I shoot the best when I relax my release hand and "pull" through the shot and slightly push the bow forward. Different strokes for different folks I guess! Do whatever works best for you!


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## dw'struth (Mar 14, 2008)

EGriggs said:


> Hey Dan. I saw this post and thought I'd jump in (at the risk of being told I've been doing it wrong all these years... )
> 
> Let me start by saying that shooting a triggerless back tension release is something that will ultimately be done differently for many people. My method isn't one that will work for everyone, but anyone who's ever struggled to shoot a BT release would be doing themselves a favor just to keep an open mind and try it.
> 
> ...


Thanks alot! Hope you this year is even better than last for you!


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## jeeperforlife (Jun 20, 2007)

EGriggs said:


> You maintain and sometimes even build that back tension throughout the shot process, but that's not ultimately what fires the release.


This is something ive wondered about...whats the consensus view on this? Do you keep a steady pull or do you pull progressively harder until the release? Thanks for posting Eric! Its always great to hear from the pros!


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## chuckatuk (May 28, 2003)

I remember an article explaining the same.I don't remember the shooter but when he had trouble getting the release to go off under pressure.He would switch to an even slower release.


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## EGriggs (Mar 11, 2003)

I guess the conscious view of this would be tricky. This isn't always a conscious part of my shot, but only because I've done the same thing for so long. At some point in all of this if it's something new, you have to consciously do it and make that effort. Somewhere along the line it becomes a sub-conscious effort. I still will go back to this and sometimes it is still my focus depending on the situation. In the beginning you have to focus on that execution and getting that feel. I would suggest anyone doing this for the first time to try it at point blank range without complicating the fundamental with the aim. Once you feel that you can decently come through the shot while maintaining steady movement of the release, give it a try while aiming at something. Be sure to maintain your focus on the execution though and not to get caught up in the aim. Just observe the sight picture and don't allow the movement to control your shot execution. 




jeeperforlife said:


> This is something ive wondered about...whats the consensus view on this? Do you keep a steady pull or do you pull progressively harder until the release? Thanks for posting Eric! Its always great to hear from the pros!


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## FishAlaska (Nov 30, 2010)

Alpha Burnt said:


> I swear, I really like Nutsandbolts version of how to. There are many ways to say it, but his seems the clearest and easiest to understand. If you pull through the shot, you ARE rotating the release-but not CONSCIOUSLY.


Where is this explanation located?

Sent from my SCH-I510 using Tapatalk


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## EGriggs (Mar 11, 2003)

chuckatuk said:


> I remember an article explaining the same.I don't remember the shooter but when he had trouble getting the release to go off under pressure.He would switch to an even slower release.


That was Nathan Brooks in the shootoff in Vegas a few years back. He was having an issue getting his release to fire and switched to a heavier one because he knew that would make him have to be more aggressive. 

Here is a link I found that includes some of the text from a thread a few years ago as well as some other information on this topic.

http://www.il-archery.com/techtips/Aug 06 Backtension Only.pdf


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## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

EGriggs said:


> I guess the conscious view of this would be tricky. This isn't always a conscious part of my shot, but only because I've done the same thing for so long. At some point in all of this if it's something new, you have to consciously do it and make that effort. Somewhere along the line it becomes a sub-conscious effort. I still will go back to this and sometimes it is still my focus depending on the situation. In the beginning you have to focus on that execution and getting that feel. I would suggest anyone doing this for the first time to try it at point blank range without complicating the fundamental with the aim. Once you feel that you can decently come through the shot while maintaining steady movement of the release, give it a try while aiming at something. Be sure to maintain your focus on the execution though and not to get caught up in the aim. Just observe the sight picture and don't allow the movement to control your shot execution.


Dean Pridgen also mentions follow through with any release is maybe one of the most inportant part of shot process. Good follow through can keep you in the shot. Dean seems to mention follow through as much as anything he ever has taught me. Even though your turning your release your still usung good follow through, shot not over until that happens. Never seen a good pro that didnt have good follow through and finish the shot.
DB


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## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

EGriggs said:


> That was Nathan Brooks in the shootoff in Vegas a few years back. He was having an issue getting his release to fire and switched to a heavier one because he knew that would make him have to be more aggressive.
> 
> Here is a link I found that includes some of the text from a thread a few years ago as well as some other information on this topic.
> 
> http://www.il-archery.com/techtips/Aug 06 Backtension Only.pdf


Thats an awesome link. Going to hang on to that one!

I remember Nathan and Randy Ulmer having a bag full of releases. Randy just grabbed which ever each time and each was set with a different travel. That way he never know when it was going to go off.

Rememeber Nathan switching release with like the last shot or next to last shot in Vegas one year. Talk about gutsy move!
DB


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## Kstigall (Feb 24, 2004)

dw'struth said:


> Sorry, I don't buy it. If they were not using their back muscles to fire the shot, their release elbows wouldn't be flying straight back as they are. I definately do not see any "wrist rotation", and probably never will in shooters at their level.


If you don't do something to loosen the tension in your draw hand the release will NEVER move and consequently NEVER fire. They aren't relaxing the string pulling back muscles. Those muscles in the back stay under tension or you'll creep. Maintaining back tension is essential regardless of your method of activating the release. The best I can describe "my" method is I have my pointer and middle finger "loaded" with the draw weight with the ring finger carrying little to no weight. If all goes well as I relax my release hand/pointer finger and apply ring finger pressure some holding weight transfers from the pointer finger to the ring finger rotating the release very subtly and boom the arrow is gone. Depending on how you set and work your release there may be a fair amount of noticeable movement like when Braden G. works his shot or virtually no movement like some top shots work their shot. A hinge release releases when rotated and that doesn't change just because you are at full draw. How much it moves and how you perceive it happening is a bit different for each us.

For those of us that aren't at the level of the Nathan B.'s, Braden G's or a Rodger Willett we might tighten up under pressure such as shooting for a championship or a game animal. We can have a very difficult time working the release because muscles tighten up and things don't "flow" like when shooting on our home turf for fun. There are those that might switch to a release that is a tick faster to release, shorter to release or lighter to activate for a major tournament or during a competition if need be. Some might even train every day with a hinge and switch to a thumb trigger for a tournament known to have windy conditions or if that is what works for them.

There are some VERY good archers that don't even use hinge releases. Calling them "punchers" isn't the same as calling someone that slaps the trigger a puncher.


My apologies to E Griggs. I started typing, left my desk and came back to finish so it appears I copied some of his post. I am glad to hear that what I've learned I didn't dream up. When I first tried to use a back tension release 20 years ago I couldn't make it work because I was made to believe I couldn't move my finger or hand. 20 years later I'm back into archery and studying the top shots. I learned that I've shot "back tension" since I started killing deer with a bow when I was 15. Picked up a hinge and shot it the way I shoot a thumb trigger and bingo no problem.


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## 45er (Jan 18, 2009)

*Follow through after the shot of course always.*

What's interesting to me is almost all these guys *seem* to let their bow arm drop after the shot. You know that arrow is _way_ downrange before they do this though. When I'm shooting poorly (which is the vast majority of the time!), it is because I drop my bow arm after the shot. I think what's really happening is that I think I'm dropping it after the shot, but in reality I'm anticipating the shot and pulling the bow down the instant before I release. 

Watching these vids was interesting though. Thanks for sharing.


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## 3-d buster x4 (Feb 12, 2011)

if your thinking about the (shot) your NOT aiming !! 


Alpha Burnt said:


> How many commands do you want your brain to be giving while your pin is floating on the dot? I might be wrong, but the fewer, the better when it comes to my brain:thumbs_up


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## chuckatuk (May 28, 2003)

EGriggs said:


> That was Nathan Brooks in the shootoff in Vegas a few years back. He was having an issue getting his release to fire and switched to a heavier one because he knew that would make him have to be more aggressive.
> 
> Here is a link I found that includes some of the text from a thread a few years ago as well as some other information on this topic.
> 
> http://www.il-archery.com/techtips/Aug 06 Backtension Only.pdf


Thanks for the link.Good stuff


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## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

Kstigall said:


> If you don't do something to loosen the tension in your draw hand the release will NEVER move and consequently NEVER fire. They aren't relaxing the string pulling back muscles. Those muscles in the back stay under tension or you'll creep. Maintaining back tension is essential regardless of your method of activating the release. The best I can describe "my" method is I have my pointer and middle finger "loaded" with the draw weight with the ring finger carrying little to no weight. If all goes well as I relax my release hand/pointer finger and apply ring finger pressure some holding weight transfers from the pointer finger to the ring finger rotating the release very subtly and boom the arrow is gone. Depending on how you set and work your release there may be a fair amount of noticeable movement like when Braden G. works his shot or virtually no movement like some top shots work their shot. A hinge release releases when rotated and that doesn't change just because you are at full draw. How much it moves and how you perceive it happening is a bit different for each us.
> 
> For those of us that aren't at the level of the Nathan B.'s, Braden G's or a Rodger Willett we might tighten up under pressure such as shooting for a championship or a game animal. We can have a very difficult time working the release because muscles tighten up and things don't "flow" like when shooting on our home turf for fun. There are those that might switch to a release that is a tick faster to release, shorter to release or lighter to activate for a major tournament or during a competition if need be. Some might even train every day with a hinge and switch to a thumb trigger for a tournament known to have windy conditions or if that is what works for them.
> 
> There are some VERY good archers that don't even use hinge releases. Calling them "punchers" isn't the same as calling someone that slaps the trigger a puncher.


Dean Pridgen never used a BT release. (Carter Target 3) Also designed his own release and won Vegas with it. Failsafe. Terry Ragsdale and Randy Ulmer both said he was the best ever. Dean will say you got to find what works for you.
DB


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## dw'struth (Mar 14, 2008)

I understand that the release has to move to fire. I think what got me was when they said the "wrist" was rotated to fire the shot. That is what made me think, "hold on there." lol

Eric said it is in his fingers, not his wrist. He also said that different people do it differently. Anyone that knows me knows that I have no shame in learning something from someone else. I can honestly say that I have not given this method, using fingers, of firing a release much of a chance. That is because most everything that I have read says to move nothing.....just keep tension out of your arms, and let it move on its on.

I will give it a shot for sure. Lord knows it couldn't hurt anything!


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## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

45er said:


> *Follow through after the shot of course always.*
> 
> What's interesting to me is almost all these guys *seem* to let their bow arm drop after the shot. You know that arrow is _way_ downrange before they do this though. When I'm shooting poorly (which is the vast majority of the time!), it is because I drop my bow arm after the shot. I think what's really happening is that I think I'm dropping it after the shot, but in reality I'm anticipating the shot and pulling the bow down the instant before I release.
> 
> ...


Not using good follow through cost me one in the blue last night. Got to finish the shot. Dropping my arm was exactly what I did. 

I do think if most watched a video of there self from time to time they would see break down in the shot from shot to shot. Pros are able to repeat without breakdown to stay consistant for 60 shots.
DB


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## RxBowhunter (Feb 16, 2005)

Alpha Burnt said:


> How many commands do you want your brain to be giving while your pin is floating on the dot? I might be wrong, but the fewer, the better when it comes to my brain:thumbs_up


Try it long enough and you'll see there is no command involved at all. It becomes a natural progression of your shot sequence and the only "thinking" involved is holding the dot or pin in the center of the X. 
It's very very simple. Repeatedly keeping it simple is where the challenge is


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## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

dw'struth said:


> I understand that the release has to move to fire. I think what got me was when they said the "wrist" was rotated to fire the shot. That is what made me think, "hold on there." lol
> 
> Eric said it is in his fingers, not his wrist. He also said that different people do it differently. Anyone that knows me knows that I have no shame in learning something from someone else. I can honestly say that I have not given this method, using fingers, of firing a release much of a chance. That is because most everything that I have read says to move nothing.....just keep tension out of your arms, and let it move on its on.
> 
> I will give it a shot for sure. Lord knows it couldn't hurt anything!


This is why I posted this. Here what my coach says. He truthfully honest.
DB

Hey Big Guy 
Why is it that we always look at the bows,releases and equipment-----AND------never in the MIRROR. 


Coach 
“Darkness surrounds those who fail to see the light” -------Dean Pridgen


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## IlBuckMaster (Nov 14, 2005)

EGriggs said:


> Hope this can help some of you!!! :wink:


Thanks for taking the time to post Eric - the information is great.

Hope the new job is working out well for you! See you in a couple of weeks at FL.

Scott


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## Kstigall (Feb 24, 2004)

Daniel Boone said:


> Dean Pridgen never used a BT release. (Carter Target 3) Also designed his own release and won Vegas with it. Failsafe. Terry Ragsdale and Randy Ulmer both said he was the best ever. Dean will say you got to find what works for you.
> DB


Exactly. I added a little to the end of my post. I was taught "back tension" when I started at 15 in '78. It wasn't or I didn't know that it was called "back tension". a former W. Va. state field champ told me a) don't grip the bow b) maintain back tension


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## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

Kstigall said:


> Exactly. I added a little to the end of my post. I was taught "back tension" when I started at 15 in '78. It wasn't or I didn't know that it was called "back tension". a former W. Va. state field champ told me a) don't grip the bow b) maintain back tension


Very well said I may add.
DB


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

Bow set up to "fit" (draw length and draw weight) and Mastering the Shot goes a long ways. Had wait forever for one video to load, dial up (Proverty Valley, 250 feet below nearest tower, and no access to other means). He looked awfully relaxed and seemed to shoot great.....


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## Mike2787 (Jul 16, 2002)

I think I've shot more arrows with a hinge release than anyone on the planet and I agree with what Eric says 100%. People often ask me how I shoot a release and I honestly tell them that I have no clue. After close to 40 years shooting a non-trigger release, everything I do is sub-conscience and muscle memory. I know I rotate the release after I settle in and aim. I always thought that I put more tension on my pinkie and ring fingers but considering how tight my grip is on my release, that may be hard to do. Frank Pearson told me he has watched me shoot with a very close eye and he said that I move my wrist to set off the release. Makes perfect sense to me. As far as back tension goes, I know I shoot with it. When I was younger, I would creep as I aimed, something you could get away with 20 years ago, but I would still explode or have a dynamic follow through off of my shot. Part of that is probably the result of the stresses built up in the muscles that are used for pulling and pushing the bow but the biggest part is the result of a surprise release. The first time a person experiences a true surprise release, their reaction and follow through is going to be somewhat larger than subsequint shots. 

I honestly don't know how The Hammer and Dietmar get away with shooting the way they do. If I shot that way, people down range would be in mortal danger. It has proven to be very successful for them so I keep an open mind.

I think the keys to shooting well are to keep it simple, relax, develop a good routine that works for you and not listen to every Tom Dick and Harry that has an opinion.


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## Kade (Jan 11, 2011)

Daniel Boone said:


> Watch Dan Macarthey here his body never moves and actually he isnt turrning the release that much.
> 
> Sometimes it just that simple.
> 
> http://s194.photobucket.com/albums/z289/okiebwhtr/Archers/?action=view¤t=Picture120.mp4


That's because its a thumb trigger :wink:

Now back to the real discussion, thanks for the great info E Griggs


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## hunt123 (Jan 17, 2009)

Good thread, DB and E Griggs! Thanks for posting! Everybody must have way better eyes than I do, I couldn't see ANY release hand movement on the videos other than the loose fingers curling back.

Question: Why did the release hand on some of the guys fly WAY back after the shot and others didn't move back very much? You can set a thumb release to require a lot of pull force to set it off which would make your hand fly back farther, but on a hinge you can only set the amount of travel, not the force required.


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## dw'struth (Mar 14, 2008)

I have been outside trying it, and it does seem as though it helps me to hold a little better. It will take more time to tell if I can use this method permanently.

See........I am not so close minded!:wink:


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## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

Mike2787 said:


> I think I've shot more arrows with a hinge release than anyone on the planet and I agree with what Eric says 100%. People often ask me how I shoot a release and I honestly tell them that I have no clue. After close to 40 years shooting a non-trigger release, everything I do is sub-conscience and muscle memory. I know I rotate the release after I settle in and aim. I always thought that I put more tension on my pinkie and ring fingers but considering how tight my grip is on my release, that may be hard to do. Frank Pearson told me he has watched me shoot with a very close eye and he said that I move my wrist to set off the release. Makes perfect sense to me. As far as back tension goes, I know I shoot with it. When I was younger, I would creep as I aimed, something you could get away with 20 years ago, but I would still explode or have a dynamic follow through off of my shot. Part of that is probably the result of the stresses built up in the muscles that are used for pulling and pushing the bow but the biggest part is the result of a surprise release. The first time a person experiences a true surprise release, their reaction and follow through is going to be somewhat larger than subsequint shots.
> 
> I honestly don't know how The Hammer and Dietmar get away with shooting the way they do. If I shot that way, people down range would be in mortal danger. It has proven to be very successful for them so I keep an open mind.
> 
> I think the keys to shooting well are to keep it simple, relax, develop a good routine that works for you and not listen to every Tom Dick and Harry that has an opinion.


Thanks Mike for your insight of many years shooting with some of the legends in archery who by the way talk very highly about you!
Dean says keep it fun Mike is the key to good shooting. We just disscussed when you guys like Kramer and others shot there was a llot of joking around and fun even on the lines indoors. 
DB

PS anyone see this young guy in this picture thats Mike and I see his arrows were in the tight group as well. Interesting how good these guys shot back then. Pretty tight group of arrows~

Larry Wise, Mike Leitor, Jack Kramer and Dean Pridgen left to right,


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## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

Kade said:


> That's because its a thumb trigger :wink:
> 
> Now back to the real discussion, thanks for the great info E Griggs


Make sense and your 100% correct.
DB


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## CherryJu1ce (Feb 25, 2005)

Daniel Boone said:


> So you do not believe these guys when they say this? Wrist has to rotate for a hinge release to fire and this is exactly how these guys explain it.
> DB


I believe what they're saying, but what works for them doesn't work for everyone. I know that I've personally tried this method before...holding everything still and just relaxing the tension in my hand, allowing the handle to rotate. It simply didn't produce the same results that contracting my upper back produces. 

And for the record...the wrist really doesn't have to move, no matter which way you slice it. You could activate the release several ways...you could just pull your little finger backwards (which is nothing but finger flexion); you could "release" tension from your index finger (which is nothing but finger extension); and lastly, you could contract only your rhomboids and middle/lower trapezius, in turn depressing and retracting the scapula. In any of those scenarios, the wrist is staying stationary in relation to the forearm.


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## 3-D Quest (Jan 26, 2007)

I think the keys to shooting well are to keep it simple, relax, develop a good routine that works for you and not listen to every Tom Dick and Harry that has an opinion.

Mike2787,
This is great advice if you've developed a good routine and are successful with it. But there are some excellent post here by everyone giving good, sound advice, to those who are struggling with their sequence and execution.


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## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

CherryJu1ce said:


> I believe what they're saying, but what works for them doesn't work for everyone. I know that I've personally tried this method before...holding everything still and just relaxing the tension in my hand, allowing the handle to rotate. It simply didn't produce the same results that contracting my upper back produces.
> 
> And for the record...the wrist really doesn't have to move, no matter which way you slice it. You could activate the release several ways...you could just pull your little finger backwards (which is nothing but finger flexion); you could "release" tension from your index finger (which is nothing but finger extension); and lastly, you could contract only your rhomboids and middle/lower trapezius, in turn depressing and retracting the scapula. In any of those scenarios, the wrist is staying stationary in relation to the forearm.


Nathan said he turns the wrist. Im just giving advice from what was told to me from them. OK the release must rotate.

DB


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## XQuest (May 5, 2003)

Daniel Boone said:


> Dean Pridgen never used a BT release. (Carter Target 3) Also designed his own release and won Vegas with it. Failsafe. Terry Ragsdale and Randy Ulmer both said he was the best ever. Dean will say you got to find what works for you.
> DB[/QUOTE
> Wrong DB......First the hooks (ledges) came with the recurves then the rope and spike came with early compounds. These are both back tension and I got my basic training on them.


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## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

XQuest said:


> Daniel Boone said:
> 
> 
> > Dean Pridgen never used a BT release. (Carter Target 3) Also designed his own release and won Vegas with it. Failsafe. Terry Ragsdale and Randy Ulmer both said he was the best ever. Dean will say you got to find what works for you.
> ...


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## Kade (Jan 11, 2011)

3-D Quest said:


> I think the keys to shooting well are to keep it simple, relax, develop a good routine that works for you and not listen to every Tom Dick and Harry that has an opinion.
> 
> Mike2787,
> This is great advice if you've developed a good routine and are successful with it. But there are some excellent post here by everyone giving good, sound advice, to those who are struggling with their sequence and execution.


Your missing the point of what you quoted in Mike's post. Part of the key is to actually develop a routine and don't over complicate things and whatever your doing that is working to do it the same over and over. If you haven't done so or don't do so. Your always going to struggle PERIOD. You can't fight what you shouldn't be fighting and expect to get better or be successful.

Part of Eric's first post about not fighting the dot, will be looked over by way too many people. Understanding what he says and applying what he said along with what Mike said would make a lot of peoples lives much easier when it comes to shooting. I know it made mine a lot easier.


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## woodyogau73 (Jan 11, 2009)

alpha burnt said:


> how many commands do you want your brain to be giving while your pin is floating on the dot? I might be wrong, but the fewer, the better when it comes to my brain:thumbs_up


 xx2


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## X-Ray (Apr 3, 2004)

WOLF44 said it correctly. you cannot defy the laws of physics the release will rotate or it will not fire. now whether you are moving your wrist or using back muscles it is still going to turn the release. 

Thanks for the Vids DB.


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## 1955 (Sep 22, 2009)

bsharkey said:


> this is why you have to love AT even when the pros tell you how something is done the weekender will still tell you your wrong you guys rule :wink:
> DB how can the pro's be right when the AT faithful say's dey b wrong?


This is the way that Dave C describes how to use a hinge also...BUT it was his description of how to execute BT that saved me. See, I was doing it the way that the three describe doing it, BUT it just feed my target panic. So, for me, at the time, using BT got rid of my TP.

Now that I have a handle on the TP, I might be able to use the rotating method without falling apart. *Many of these Pro's have SO much raw talent, that they can get away with a method of shooting that the average shooter can't pull off.*


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## skynight (Nov 5, 2003)

Thanks for the vids and the pros who posted here. Here is a link to the best explanation I've ever heard:

http://www.grivtech.com/index.php?option=com_frontpage&Itemid=1


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## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

1955 said:


> This is the way that Dave C describes how to use a hinge also...BUT it was his description of how to execute BT that saved me. See, I was doing it the way that the three describe doing it, BUT it just feed my target panic. So, for me, at the time, using BT got rid of my TP.
> 
> Now that I have a handle on the TP, I might be able to use the rotating method without falling apart. *Many of these Pro's have SO much raw talent, that they can get away with a method of shooting that the average shooter can't pull off.*


Thanks and wondered how Dave does it. I think the greats keep it simple.
DB


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## Bobmuley (Jan 14, 2004)

wsbark01 said:


> So if you* rotate your wrist *then you are not using* back tension *then correct?


They don't have to be exclusive. Watch their release hand...it goes backwards...so they're still pulling.

I also don't like the "rotate your wrist" because that's not what they're doing. Rotating the release yes, via changes in finger pressure; but its not the wrist.


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## rdhj (Dec 29, 2010)

Alpha Burnt said:


> I swear, I really like Nutsandbolts version of how to. There are many ways to say it, but his seems the clearest and easiest to understand. If you pull through the shot, you ARE rotating the release-but not CONSCIOUSLY.



exactly...this is how i learned to do it


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## 1955 (Sep 22, 2009)

Daniel Boone said:


> Thanks and wondered how Dave does it. I think the greats keep it simple.
> DB


It's been about a year since I've watched that video, BUT if I remember correctly, he just recounts the way he's heard/seen other hinge shooter execute the shot. I'm pretty sure he states that he doesn't use a hinge, but uses a thumb release.

Watching his video the first time, I had an epiphany. For the very first time, someone had described BT in a way that I was able to grasp. I immediately went out and was able to do it correctly...I was floored!!! It saved my shooting, as I was nearly ready to give up. At the time I was using a hinge.

Later, I went back and watched the rest of the video, and just a few scenes later he described the method from your first post...AND I HAD TO TURN IT OFF!!! Because I was shooting by rotating my hand and it only fed my TP!!!

Now I realize that it was getting my mind right that cured (for now) my TP. I also couldn't shoot a trigger release because I couldn't control my index finger from punching it. Now I use one all the time and may try the hinge again using the method from your first post.

GREAT TOPIC!!!


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## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

1955 said:


> It's been about a year since I've watched that video, BUT if I remember correctly, he just recounts the way he's heard/seen other hinge shooter execute the shot. I'm pretty sure he states that he doesn't use a hinge, but uses a thumb release.
> 
> Watching his video the first time, I had an epiphany. For the very first time, someone had described BT in a way that I was able to grasp. I immediately went out and was able to do it correctly...I was floored!!! It saved my shooting, as I was nearly ready to give up. At the time I was using a hinge.
> 
> ...


Hopefully I can get a close up if I get a chance to go to indoor nationals of him shooting his release.
DB


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## rn3 (Jan 4, 2008)

When I shot a rope spike or hinge, I would keep pulling and basically make a fist which causes the wrist to rotate ever so slightly and the release would fire.


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## Bowtechie (Jan 20, 2003)

Dave C. will describe his method as "scapular rotation". He never talked of wrist rotation at all. He uses a continuous buildup of pressure throughout the shot causing an "explosion" at release. That's what he taught at his seminar I went to. You can demonstrate for yourself by anchoring your release hand knuckles to your jawbone and rotate your release side scapula towards the other making sure not to pull off of anchor. You can see the release hand rotate without the wrist bending.

I agree that there are different ways to shoot releases and be sucessful.


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## HokieArcher (Mar 13, 2009)

Correct me if I am wrong Eric, but I don't believe that Eric/Nathan/Chance are really relaxing as they shoot as some people are thinking. Instead when they begin to draw the bow they set up a dynamic tension and keep this tension once they reach full draw (they never quit pushing/pulling or add any additional tension once they reach full draw). Instead of trying to add extra tension once at full draw with the back, arms, or any other body part; they simply use the tension which is already set to allow the release to rotate in the hand. This makes the release go off without any unnecessary movement of the arms or back and allows the pin to sit steadier on the target. This is the way I shoot and if you haven't tried it you should, as Eric says though set your release fairly heavy because the dynamic tension makes it go off fairly quick! 

Pretty simple way to fire a release consistently!! 

Thanks for taking the time to share with us Eric and thanks for the videos DB, haven't seen this good of a thread on AT for a looooong time!!


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## Alpha Burnt (Sep 12, 2005)

N&B version is online here in a sticky, I will see if I can find the link for you. Sounds similar to everything that has been discussed here, just simpler.


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## Bnbfishin (Apr 25, 2004)

Subscribing to refer back to after I'm done shooting today......


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## Archerybuff (Oct 6, 2002)

EGriggs said:


> Hey Dan. I saw this post and thought I'd jump in (at the risk of being told I've been doing it wrong all these years... )
> 
> Let me start by saying that shooting a triggerless back tension release is something that will ultimately be done differently for many people. My method isn't one that will work for everyone, but anyone who's ever struggled to shoot a BT release would be doing themselves a favor just to keep an open mind and try it.
> 
> ...


Hey thanks a bunch for the post Eric! I think I will try to put more travel in my release because I do exactly what you mentioned, getting tentative towards the end of the shot. I was going backwards trying to get the shot off earlier when in reality I should have focused on staying active throughout the shot.


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## nwmulie (Jan 15, 2008)

For someone fighting target panic, the method of useing the fingers to set the release off is very hard to control. Anything that has noticable movement or timing will cause a bad reaction. Its just like going from an index trigger to a thumb. It won't take long to start punching. Removeing the fingers from the triggering of the release is the quickest way to get back on the right track. Useing the larger muscles in the back, "back tension" steadies the shot and gets you the suprise release. I agree that the finger rotation will work very well, but doubt that a person who can't control a wrist or any other style of release will have much success with that method.


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## Lonestar63 (Mar 19, 2007)

Bobmuley said:


> They don't have to be exclusive.  Watch their release hand...it goes backwards...so they're still pulling.
> 
> I also don't like the "rotate your wrist" because that's not what they're doing. * Rotating the release yes, via changes in finger pressure; but its not the wrist.*


^^^^^^This right here^^^^^^

When i first started shooting back tension, i realized this is exactly how i got it to go off. I maintained a steady pressure pulling, not over pulling though, and would allow the release to go off by slightly rotating it as i was pulling. To be honest, i was kind of ashamed of it, figured i was doing it wrong, and was hoping nobody watched too close. A couple of years ago i decided it was the wrong way to do it, and concentrated on the so called proper way to shoot a back tension. I was all over the place, and to put it simply, couldn't shoot a BT release that way.

Went back to my old way, the way DB is talking about, and the pin got a WHOLE LOT STEADIER. Ended up Third place at the State Championship, missed being State Champion in K45 by only 2 points.

Don't have to worry about my release this year, so looking for better things......


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## EGriggs (Mar 11, 2003)

nwmulie said:


> For someone fighting target panic, the method of useing the fingers to set the release off is very hard to control. Anything that has noticable movement or timing will cause a bad reaction. Its just like going from an index trigger to a thumb. It won't take long to start punching. Removeing the fingers from the triggering of the release is the quickest way to get back on the right track. Useing the larger muscles in the back, "back tension" steadies the shot and gets you the suprise release. I agree that the finger rotation will work very well, but doubt that a person who can't control a wrist or any other style of release will have much success with that method.


I've got to respectfully disagree with you on this one based on my own personal experience and through helping several others to overcome or control their own target panic. 

Let me start by sharing my own target panic story....
I was 17 and absolutely torn up with archery. I loved it and eat, slept and breathed archery. Problem was, I had target panic like you read about. It started by punching a little and progressed into the infamous "drive by" shooting. After a while, I couldn't even get my pin anywhere near the target and would do some sort of ridiculous flinch to get it there. I almost quit. I tried wrist strap releases, thumb buttons and even several back tension releases with no luck. I could punch anything!!! One day a guy from our local club who was a pretty good archer gave me a release and told me to shoot it. I drew it back and rotated forever trying to get it to fire. I flinch several times and made quite the spectacle out of myself trying to get the release to fire. I finally let down and told him that the release wouldn't fire. He said to me that when I could get it to fire I'd be all set. Well, I worked on that thing and rotated and rotated until it finally would fire. It was the first time I hadn't anticipated a shot. I would be completely out of breath and my arrows never stood a chance of hitting where I wanted them to, but for the first time I wasn't missing because I had flinched or locked up below the spot, I was shooting ok shots and I knew it would only get better. I stuck with that release all through the end of that summer into the fall and winter. I got pretty decent at shooting a back tension release that way and had evened lightened it up just a little bit. My previous best on an NFAA 5 spot target was a 285 and that winter I not only shot my first 300, but also my first 60x. It was a complete turnaround for me. 

Now enough with the personal story, but it's my belief that setting a BT release up so ridiculously heavy that it forces someone to just keep pulling and rotating is absolutely the way to go. I've seen several come into my backyard with the same type of target panic that I dealt with. I set them up with a trigger less bt release set very long for the travel. Place them at point blank range and discuss with the the importance of the execution and to NOT worry about the pin. Once they're fairly comfortable with the activation of the release and working through the travel we can move back to about 10 yards or so and let them shoot at a dot on the bag or something. From there they move back to further distances, but all the while still keeping in mind the disconnect between the aiming and the execution.

It's rarely instant, but I have yet to work with somebody that hadn't overcome their target panic through this method, so it's hard for me to not recommend this to someone fighting that relentless little target panic monkey.


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## kc hay seed (Jul 12, 2007)

thanks for the post DB, always enjoy them.i will have to say x-2 on the post above by george ryles(grivtech.com) it seems the best way for me. you cause a natural rotation by simply relaxing index and middle fingers while pulling through the shot.


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## dw'struth (Mar 14, 2008)

Bobmuley said:


> They don't have to be exclusive. Watch their release hand...it goes backwards...so they're still pulling.
> 
> I also don't like the "rotate your wrist" because that's not what they're doing. Rotating the release yes, via changes in finger pressure; but its not the wrist.


That's all I was trying to say at the begining. It may have came off wrong because I hand't had my 2nd cup of coffee yet!lol


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## Bobmuley (Jan 14, 2004)

EGriggs said:


> Now enough with the personal story, but it's my belief that setting a BT release up so ridiculously heavy that it forces someone to just keep pulling and rotating is absolutely the way to go.


Do you ever run into the problem, with some releases, of not being able to set them slow enough? I couldn't shoot some of the Carters like the Solutions and Only because I couldn't get them slow enough.


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## Bobmuley (Jan 14, 2004)

dw'struth said:


> [/COLOR]
> That's all I was trying to say at the begining. It may have came off wrong because I hand't had my 2nd cup of coffee yet!lol


I had my physical this morning so I didn't get breakfast or ANY coffee!


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## tmorelli (Jul 31, 2005)

I'm glad Eric stepped in to clear this up. DB, I don't mean to blast you here becuase I think the spirit and intention of your post is right on but I generally think your title of the thread and explanation are misleading. 

Even those who maintain back tension, vs. build back tension, vs. cheat with their arms, etc........and do so at a competitive level are not shooting these release by rotating *the wrist*. The rotation in the release comes from a transition of the load on the pointer finger to the outer fingers.......while tension from the back (or cheating arms) is applied, built or maintained as per the shooter's habit.


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## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

tmorelli said:


> I'm glad Eric stepped in to clear this up. DB, I don't mean to blast you here becuase I think the spirit and intention of your post is right on but I generally think your title of the thread and explanation are misleading.
> 
> Even those who maintain back tension, vs. build back tension, vs. cheat with their arms, etc........and do so at a competitive level are not shooting these release by rotating *the wrist*. The rotation in the release comes from a transition of the load on the pointer finger to the outer fingers.......while tension from the back (or cheating arms) is applied, built or maintained as per the shooter's habit.


Maybe tell Nathan Brooks and ask Eric. I explained it like they said, they are turning there wrist and even ask twice.
Dont blame the messenger. I was there watching and yes I saw wrist turning. Be kinda hard with as much travel as Eric puts in his release. Nathan use to practice with a stans when he young, never saw a release have so much travel.
DB


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## edgerat (Dec 14, 2011)

Archery is a funny sport. Do what works for you, focus on aiming and only aiming and let the release do its job. FWIW, I was taught BT like this. Hold the release with your index and thumb and draw the bow back to your anchor, take your thumb off the peg and transfer the majority of the weight to your middle, ring, pinky fingers (depending on the release you are using) and then begin building tension, the act of pulling your scapula's together will automatically cause your hand to rotate and the release to fire, your body's physiology (in 99% of humans) will not allow you to tension your back without you "giving" in angulation somewhere else. Hence, your hand begins to rotate and the release fires. I personally shoot a thumb trigger and I fire it the same way I fire a BT. I draw the bow and then establish my anchor, I place my thumb on the barrel and then build tension in my back, which in turn makes my hand rotate and the pressure builds on the thumb barrel and the release fires. This is how I was taught to shoot by a couple of pro guys out here. 

Everytime I see a pro pitcher that is a submariner, I just smile, they aren't doing it the "correct way", they are doing it the only way they know how, and it works for them.


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## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

edgerat said:


> Archery is a funny sport. Do what works for you, focus on aiming and only aiming and let the release do its job. FWIW, I was taught BT like this. Hold the release with your index and thumb and draw the bow back to your anchor, take your thumb off the peg and transfer the majority of the weight to your middle, ring, pinky fingers (depending on the release you are using) and then begin building tension, the act of pulling your scapula's together will automatically cause your hand to rotate and the release to fire, your body's physiology (in 99% of humans) will not allow you to tension your back without you "giving" in angulation somewhere else. Hence, your hand begins to rotate and the release fires. I personally shoot a thumb trigger and I fire it the same way I fire a BT. I draw the bow and then establish my anchor, I place my thumb on the barrel and then build tension in my back, which in turn makes my hand rotate and the pressure builds on the thumb barrel and the release fires. This is how I was taught to shoot by a couple of pro guys out here.
> 
> Everytime I see a pro pitcher that is a submariner, I just smile, they aren't doing it the "correct way", they are doing it the only way they know how, and it works for them.


Very well said I never said this was the only way! Got to find what for you! Just the messenger here. Heck BT aint for this old timer. Im really proud of members being respectfull and making this an informative thread.
DB


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## Easykeeper (Jan 2, 2003)

Great thread DB! And a big thank you to Eric Griggs for his enlightening posts. Reminds me of the old ArcheryTalk. And nobody has come on and told Mr. Griggs he's doing it wrong (yet)...very refreshing.


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## bambikiller (Feb 27, 2004)

this is wrong, because you are still holding the weight with your back muscles and following threw get it


dw'struth said:


> Sorry, I don't buy it. If they were not using their back muscles to fire the shot, their release elbows wouldn't be flying straight back as they are. I definately do not see any "wrist rotation", and probably never will in shooters at their level.


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## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

Easykeeper said:


> Great thread DB! And a big thank you to Eric Griggs for his enlightening posts. Reminds me of the old ArcheryTalk. And nobody has come on and told Mr. Griggs he's doing it wrong (yet)...very refreshing.


 Wouldnt be nice if pros would return and be helpfull. Poor Scott Starnes was called an idiot when he last posted. Dont get any nicer then Scott.
DB


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## edgerat (Dec 14, 2011)

Your posts are REALLY appreciated by me, DB. That and a dollar will get you a McChiken!!!  I just want people to have fun at this sport, and it bothers me when I think of people pulling their hair out trying to be like, Broadwater or, Reo, or any of the fellas mentioned in this thread. I have always been a better teacher than a do'er in any sport I have been involved in but, trying to be like the pro's won't get you very far, at least in my experience. There is a reason Jesse is called the Freakshow!!!


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## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

I have my hinge set pretty fast and I am getting to anchor and that is it my form is set in stone. From that point I am not trying to move my elbow or anything else, I just put pressure on my middle finger and take pressure off my index finger. My hinge doesn't go off until I put a little more pressure on my middle finger by basically pulling a little.

I shot for 6 months and got really proficient at shooting my hinge using my rhomboids but I just never really liked the way it felt and this new method really feels good because I feel like my form is way more solid and the transfer of the hinge from index to middle finger is very easy. I have done some reading where it is suggested that pulling against the back wall during back tension can create problems when the hinge goes off to early or to late because the pressure against the wall causes problems and inconsistant shots due the different pressure on the wall. I am really preferring being against the wall with the same amount of pressure each shot.


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## redman (Feb 22, 2003)

great info i use my carter target 3 the same way I just put pressure on my middle finger and take pressure off my index finger i can use my zenith the same way i like to keep it simple for this to work for me i have to have the draw set just right for me most of my bow set up is getting the draw right


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## parkerbows (Oct 27, 2004)

I would like to ask Eric, when you draw back do you have almost all the pressure on your index finger and start from the position. Or edo you draw back with weight on all fingers and start there?
In other words does the release fire as the fingers straighten or far after that point?

Thanks


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## Spurlucky (Aug 7, 2011)

EGriggs said:


> Hey Dan. I saw this post and thought I'd jump in (at the risk of being told I've been doing it wrong all these years... )
> 
> Let me start by saying that shooting a triggerless back tension release is something that will ultimately be done differently for many people. My method isn't one that will work for everyone, but anyone who's ever struggled to shoot a BT release would be doing themselves a favor just to keep an open mind and try it.
> 
> ...


Running to get my BT release to adjust more travel on it. I have only been shooting BT for three weeks and was thinking of setting it down for awhile and going back to trigger release as I have been sending arrows into adjacent lanes. Sometimes by hitting the back wall too vigorously and sometimes by creeping off it. It all ends the same..... zero points on that arrow. Thank you for the intel and de-mystifying the process.


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## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

edgerat said:


> Your posts are REALLY appreciated by me, DB. That and a dollar will get you a McChiken!!!  I just want people to have fun at this sport, and it bothers me when I think of people pulling their hair out trying to be like, Broadwater or, Reo, or any of the fellas mentioned in this thread. I have always been a better teacher than a do'er in any sport I have been involved in but, trying to be like the pro's won't get you very far, at least in my experience. There is a reason Jesse is called the Freakshow!!!


Always fun trying to be your best and often thats all we can do in life. Never know who the next freakshow going to be!
DB


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## NoFences4Me (Jan 22, 2009)

EGriggs said:


> That was Nathan Brooks in the shootoff in Vegas a few years back. He was having an issue getting his release to fire and switched to a heavier one because he knew that would make him have to be more aggressive.
> 
> Here is a link I found that includes some of the text from a thread a few years ago as well as some other information on this topic.
> 
> http://www.il-archery.com/techtips/Aug 06 Backtension Only.pdf


Great information here! Thanks DB, and thank you Eric!


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## stixshooter (Mar 18, 2006)

This confirms what I have always believed .. 

lot's of hooey out there to mess with your head


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## AJ the TP Guru (Jul 29, 2011)

Whoa! This is all too much for my limited brain capacity. I really like what BLACK WOLF said on another thread:

_There are so many different aspects to our sport there is NOT a one size fits all or ANY particular method or technique that is better under all conditions and situations.

Target archers and bowhunters who think their way is the only correct way need to get off their high horses and acknowledge the reality of how one size does NOT fit all._

But I seriously doubt anyone will take him up on it.

Meanwhile, I'll stick to the thought that one's two minds - conscious and subconscious - must be in harmony for the arrow to consistently fly true. Too many archers get caught up in worrying about how to use this or that release when their real problem lies upstairs. Get that problem fixed, and you won't even know when the arrow is about to be released - even if you're shooting fingers.


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## mtmedic (Sep 20, 2004)

DB... Another thinker of a topic. You always seem to come up with a good one. I agree whole heartedly in what you learned by talking to these folks. I myself have sat and watched countless videos while coming to this same conclusion. I wanted to know how these guys activate their releases and the constant always seems to be some movement whether plainly obvious or extreme micro motion there is still motion. There has to be in order to get that hinge to release. The key is in the subconscious activation of this portion. As all the old sayings go... If you're thinking of anything other than aiming then you're not thinking of aiming. The muscle memory really needs to be in place and it doesn't take a year. With true practice most of you can create this "new habit" in a week or two. Spending more time will only reinforce this even better. 

Another great topic... Learning to aim. Maybe we can kick this one off next week.


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## aread (Dec 25, 2009)

Best thread in a long time!!!!

Many thanks to Eric, Mike, Dean & others who contributed!!

DB, you seem to make a habit of starting great threads.

Thanks,
Allen


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## MDUDE55 (Jul 31, 2010)

Im a nobody in archery but ill give my 2 cents on bt...I try to use it in the shot as a whole...I mean I never stop drawing...I get my grip, thumb on the peg, slowly draw my bow, thumb off peg, weight on my middle finger, and slllllooowwwlllyyyy keep pulling the bow while aiming and bam, arrow is gone...just my two cents....


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

MDUDE55 said:


> Im a nobody in archery but ill give my 2 cents on bt...I try to use it in the shot as a whole...I mean I never stop drawing...I get my grip, thumb on the peg, slowly draw my bow, thumb off peg, weight on my middle finger, and slllllooowwwlllyyyy keep pulling the bow while aiming and bam, arrow is gone...just my two cents....


EXCELLENT description.

When you do it the way you exactly described...

the release will rotate,
and the release will fire. Period.

A hinge release,
a spike release,
a "back tension" release..

all of these devices are basically a see-saw, with the balance point somewhere between the index finger and middle finger.

That's why all the manufacturer instructions say to use the thumb peg (if the release has one)
and to most DEFINITELY use the index finger, to
get to full draw....
whether a 2 finger (index and middle fingers)
or 
3 finger (index and middle and 4th fingers)
or 
4 finger release handle (index and middle and 4th and pinky fingers).

So, the thumb and index finger do all the work to GET to full draw, and anchor.

Once you get to anchor,
just let the middle finger do all the work of PULLING through the shot
and
let the index and any other fingers just go along for the ride.

Whether you set the release SUPER HOT...hair trigger,
whether you set the release MEDIUM hot...requires the release to rotate MORE...so, a MEDIUM agressive shot
whether you set the release COLD...requires the release to rotate a LOT...so, an AGRESSIVE pull through the shot 
and you can FEEL / SEE the release handle rotate....

just think of your release side shoulder as a ball joint, door hinge, pivot for your release arm.

As you pull back with your release arm elbow,
the ANGLE of your entire release arm (forearm and upper arm) is going to swing in a wide circle.


Your release arm (upper arm and elbow and forearm and wrist) could be frozen in a cast,
and a hinge release would still work.

IF you want to command shoot your hinge release,
then, you can try rotating your wrist.

IF you want to have the SUPRISE shot,
just keep your wrist straight, and relaxed,
and just work the shot...pull your elbow back behind and around your head,
around your release shoulder joint...like a door hinge.

GRIV says..."Stop THINKING...you just might outsmart yourself".

Keep the bow arm SOLID.

Coach Terry Wunderle says....pull the bow apart...like you are mad at it...rip it into two pieces.
As long as the bow DL is adjusted correctly for you (lil on the short side is BETTER than a tiny bit too long),
and keep the bow arm solid
and just pull back with the release arm, and rotate your release arm (upper and lower arm and ELBOW) straight back...

eventually, your release arm followthrough motion will have your release arm SWING around your release shoulder...when you get that SURPRISE release.

All you need to do, AFTER you hit full draw and anchor,
is just FOCUS the pulling pressure on the middle finger,
and let all the other fingers go along for the ride....(translation, gotta FORGET you even HAVE an index finger...let the index finger just hang loose...*THINK FISH GAFF HOOK = middle finger)*

*Be AGGRESSIVE. Be FIRM, like when you set a hook on a deep sea fishing rig.*

Release will fire EVERY time,
as long as you do not have yourself leaning severly backwards, when standing on level ground (this will NOT work...if you have to lean backwards to hit anchor at full draw).


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## jag9177 (Jan 24, 2011)

I have shot my back tension both ways trying to use my back muscles to pull through and by using my fingers. The best for me is once im at full draw I let the tension off of index finger and use my pinky and ring finger to pull through. I can keep my pin more steady this way. I mean im still very new to this but it works best for me. Also just my opion on a back tension release, I have also heard them refered to as hinge style release which to the design of them is correct. So what do hinges do...they let something rotate on another part like a door and a door frame. So, like I said in "MY" opion if your using a "back tension" or "hinge style" release and u put your arrow where your pin was sitting and are happy with it you're using it correctly.


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## chevman (Nov 3, 2006)

bsharkey said:


> this is why you have to love AT even when the pros tell you how something is done the weekender will still tell you your wrong you guys rule :wink:
> DB how can the pro's be right when the AT faithful say's dey b wrong?


AMEN...man i cant believe these guys. I check daily for info from the guys that shoot and tune from the top. I soak up thier knowledge like a sponge because it is proven that it works. Then you get people telling them they are doing it wrong. Is it any wonder why the pro's seldom give advise on here. To the guys that really know where the bear eats in the woods(pro's) please dont let any of these wana-be's keep you from posting on here. Some of us still don't know it all much less shoot well. Thanks for everytime you do post.


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## ridgeback87 (Nov 14, 2011)

great thread


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## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

Everyone sometimes just needs to relax and understands these pros are just telling you the way they do it. Certainly doesn't make it gospel. There no perfect form and there no magic in archery. Dean and myself discuss this today. You got to be dedicated and find what works for you. I was real worried this thread wouldn't be discussed in a civil manner. Last time it got out of hand quickly.

Dean says it takes confidence and that comes from growing and winning to be successful.

Seminars from coachs and Pros are really good for members to attend and learn from these guys.

I honestly think this is a good sign for other pros to come and give advise and give back to other archers seeking there knowledge without being disrespect full. 
DB
DB


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## ohiorobp (Nov 20, 2011)

Thank you DB for starting this outstanding thread. This is the stuff I love to soak up. :thumbup::thumbup:


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## Tibbs (May 9, 2007)

Best thread Ive read on here in a long time. Need more of this stuff on here.


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## tmorelli (Jul 31, 2005)

Daniel Boone said:


> Maybe tell Nathan Brooks and ask Eric. I explained it like they said, they are turning there wrist and even ask twice.
> Dont blame the messenger. I was there watching and yes I saw wrist turning. Be kinda hard with as much travel as Eric puts in his release. Nathan use to practice with a stans when he young, never saw a release have so much travel.
> DB


I think some of it semantics. The rotation at the wrist is going to be minimal compared to the transition in the finger loads. One thing that most of the pros are very good it is shooting in a relaxed state. Rotating the wrist alone is going to build tension in the forearm at minimum and shift the anchor. 

We may be reading it different because I read Eric's words to confirm this and I bet a more detailed talk with Nathan would reveal the same thing. Keeping it simple is a great concept but it isn't quite as simple as just rotating the wrist.

I'll definitely be watching them work their releases the next time I see them. 

Good thread and conversation no doubt!

Tony


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## hrtlnd164 (Mar 22, 2008)

Great info in this thread, but as usual you get someone who has won at the highest levels getting schooled by those closed minded enough to think there is only one way to achieve success. Thanks go out to those Pros who still try to give people new and different approaches to try when things just may not be working their own way. It all boils down to the act of consistancy in the execution, not just the execution itself.


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## redman (Feb 22, 2003)

I like the Kiss system try it all ways and see what is the best for you Kiss for me is the best


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## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

tmorelli said:


> I think some of it semantics. The rotation at the wrist is going to be minimal compared to the transition in the finger loads. One thing that most of the pros are very good it is shooting in a relaxed state. Rotating the wrist alone is going to build tension in the forearm at minimum and shift the anchor.
> 
> We may be reading it different because I read Eric's words to confirm this and I bet a more detailed talk with Nathan would reveal the same thing. Keeping it simple is a great concept but it isn't quite as simple as just rotating the wrist.
> 
> ...


I understand and realize there many ways. I myself turn my wrist with a Carter 3. But obviously I start the pull with my middle finger and continue to squeeze which eventually requires turning my wrist. If you have a long travel you going to squeeze those fingers only so much and wrist has to turn. Ill get some video in the future that clearly shows the wrist turning and even maybe a few words from the pro himself stating it.
DB


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## Bowtechie (Jan 20, 2003)

nuts&bolts said:


> EXCELLENT description.
> 
> When you do it the way you exactly described...
> 
> ...



Great explanation here. That's how DC would tell people how to do it. I like the fishing allegories. Brings back some fond memories of saltwater fishing when I lived in San Diego.


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## Ohio Mossy Oak (Dec 17, 2006)

Daniel Boone said:


> You got to be dedicated and find what works for you.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


*Bingo...IMO It takes time an work to learn an find out if you like a new or different technique..And it takes time to achieve positive results with this technique.Alot of ppl simply wont dedicate the time to see if something works well for them or not......It reminds me of something Terry Wunderle said about extensive Blind bail work.."Most people wont take the time to try this..Those ppl wont have to worry about picking trophy's up at the podium"(or something like that) *

Edit:I am working on the Griv technique showed in the video....3 finger hot shot tempest set heavy an lil travel..Also working on a tip from coach Bernies seminar(dont aim till your executing the shot/release)..That takes some re-programming :angry:


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## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

Ohio Mossy Oak said:


> *Bingo...IMO It takes time an work to learn an find out if you like a new or different technique..And it takes time to achieve positive results with this technique.Alot of ppl simply wont dedicate the time to see if something works well for them or not......It reminds me of something Terry Wunderle said about extensive Blind bail work.."Most people wont take the time to try this..Those ppl wont have to worry about picking trophy's up at the podium"(or something like that) *


Terry is telling the truth. I would love to know exactly how many arrows someone like Pridgen has shot in his career of archery.
DB


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## NEVADAPRO (Jul 5, 2007)

Exactly Mike! When my family owned Nevada Archery here in Vegas, I used to work with people that were having serious release issues and were telling me how much the release would "surprise" them when it went off. Kind of like the golfer that follows through WAY after the ball was down range. I would then have them draw their bows to full draw and keep their thumb or finger off of the trigger. I would then put MY thumb or finger on their release and slowly make it go off. You should have seen the explosion and the look on their faces.....every time!! Then they would say..."oh, it doesn't feel like that when I shoot it". 

I even shoot my thumb release just the way you and Eric are describing it. I set my thumb into the barrel which is set very stiff, then I rotate my pinky and ring fingers until they "drive" the barrel into my thumb. God bless




Mike2787 said:


> I think I've shot more arrows with a hinge release than anyone on the planet and I agree with what Eric says 100%. People often ask me how I shoot a release and I honestly tell them that I have no clue. After close to 40 years shooting a non-trigger release, everything I do is sub-conscience and muscle memory. I know I rotate the release after I settle in and aim. I always thought that I put more tension on my pinkie and ring fingers but considering how tight my grip is on my release, that may be hard to do. Frank Pearson told me he has watched me shoot with a very close eye and he said that I move my wrist to set off the release. Makes perfect sense to me. As far as back tension goes, I know I shoot with it. When I was younger, I would creep as I aimed, something you could get away with 20 years ago, but I would still explode or have a dynamic follow through off of my shot. Part of that is probably the result of the stresses built up in the muscles that are used for pulling and pushing the bow but the biggest part is the result of a surprise release. The first time a person experiences a true surprise release, their reaction and follow through is going to be somewhat larger than subsequint shots.
> 
> I honestly don't know how The Hammer and Dietmar get away with shooting the way they do. If I shot that way, people down range would be in mortal danger. It has proven to be very successful for them so I keep an open mind.
> 
> I think the keys to shooting well are to keep it simple, relax, develop a good routine that works for you and not listen to every Tom Dick and Harry that has an opinion.


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## NEVADAPRO (Jul 5, 2007)

I know how many I shot when we had our Pro Shop....sometimes 6-8 hours a day 6-7 days a week!! So I can only imagine how many Dean and Rosie, and Terry and Michelle, and Mike, and Liz and Stan and Frank and Becky shot over their long and incredible careers!! Like you DB, I learned so much from all of them over the years!! They are awesome people!!




Daniel Boone said:


> Terry is telling the truth. I would love to know exactly how many arrows someone like Pridgen has shot in his career of archery.
> DB


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## TWesley (Sep 14, 2002)

Hey DB, 
I did the wrist thing a few years ago and it worked great for me. I can belive they are not aggressively pulling during the shot. The new bows have super hard walls. If you back one of those things up 1/8" the holding weight goes up 7 pounds. They are hard as hell to control. I can see that it would work for someone to get into the wall during set up of the shot and then just hold that amount of weight while working the release.

One thing I see being stated over and over that is wrong. Back Tension = Suprise release. Rotation = Command = punching. That is crap. Ever seen a rifle shot with back tension??? If you don't know the exact moment the arrow is going to leave the bow, its a suprise release. An action is started rotation, squeezing or pulling and the focus goes back to the target while the action continues untill the arrow is fired. Back tension is applied with the same intended result as rotation or a squeeze, all three will cause the release to dump the string sometime in the future.


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## ohiorobp (Nov 20, 2011)

So riddle me this. If one wants to try a bt release without spending a fortune. What would you recommend? This thread has me amped to try. But I don't want to spend a bunch trying something.....thanks


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## 1955 (Sep 22, 2009)

ohiorobp said:


> So riddle me this. If one wants to try a bt release without spending a fortune. What would you recommend? This thread has me amped to try. But I don't want to spend a bunch trying something.....thanks


The very cheapest way to try back tension, is to use the release you already have. Just try the methods described here, with whatever release you're using now.


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## hossa1881 (Apr 1, 2010)

this thread has come at the perfect timing for me, as ive got a bt release coming in the mail later this week. Ive tried the pulling the bow apart method and i felt really wild on the release and follow through...explosion is an understatement, more like nuclear explosion. My sight picture was really spastic and I couldnt hit a barn if I was standing in it. It was definitly a suprise release though. I'm going to try what has been discussed...getting to full draw, holding against the wall, then transfering the weight to my middle finger. That sounds a lot easier to control then pulling the bow apart. Thanks for the post guys, gave me some new ideas to try out to get away from the index.


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## rsw (May 22, 2002)

Eric explained it perfectly. We "old pros" knew about back tension which is simply keeping, or slightly increasing, draw tension (draw length) during the aiming and releasing process. Probably 3 or more of the best archers ever (Dean, Terry, Mike) understand that term just as I do. The current terminology of "Back Tension" is quite different from the old days and is to some degree as effective as rotating the release for A FEW, but I do believe it is not the answer for many archers. For example, as Eric explained it, one should never set their release hot as that is the breeding ground for "anticipation", a form of TP which will absolutely destroy good shooting form. A slower release is an absolute necessity for most shooters which makes the precise definition of BT difficult for those shooters. Good form and shooting for most of us demands that we "work" to release our arrows. Rotating the release is the simplest and most effective/accurate method for the majority of shooters, especially those who have limited time to work on their form and it is a simple, easy method as well. Relax your arm, wrist, fingers and focus on the target - the arrow will find its mark with regularity.

I love to read those "expert" posts who know so much more than those who have climbed the hill many times and are undoubtedly far better archers. Why bother to post a semi-derogative statement that simply exposes yourself? At least try to make it a positive argument. Could be that most of us don't often post because we are embarrassed when rebuked by those who are better archers than we.


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## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

rsw said:


> Eric explained it perfectly. We "old pros" knew about back tension which is simply keeping, or slightly increasing, draw tension (draw length) during the aiming and releasing process. Probably 3 or more of the best archers ever (Dean, Terry, Mike) understand that term just as I do. The current terminology of "Back Tension" is quite different from the old days and is to some degree as effective as rotating the release for A FEW, but I do believe it is not the answer for many archers. For example, as Eric explained it, one should never set their release hot as that is the breeding ground for "anticipation", a form of TP which will absolutely destroy good shooting form. A slower release is an absolute necessity for most shooters which makes the precise definition of BT difficult for those shooters. Good form and shooting for most of us demands that we "work" to release our arrows. Rotating the release is the simplest and most effective/accurate method for the majority of shooters, especially those who have limited time to work on their form and it is a simple, easy method as well. Relax your arm, wrist, fingers and focus on the target - the arrow will find its mark with regularity.
> 
> I love to read those "expert" posts who know so much more than those who have climbed the hill many times and are undoubtedly far better archers. Why bother to post a semi-derogative statement that simply exposes yourself? At least try to make it a positive argument. Could be that most of us don't often post because we are embarrassed when rebuked by those who are better archers than we.


Some of you oldtimers have learned a thing or two about archer over the years. Really hasn't changed all that much. Still the archer behind the string isnt it!
DB


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## Mike2787 (Jul 16, 2002)

I have no post on my release to put my thumb on in order to draw the bow. I wrap my thumb around my index finger and keep it there through out the shot. My index finger is into the release as deep as it can be, and the release is touching my palm. My release hand is almost a fist as I draw the bow. I can't hardly squeeze my release with my fingers or transfer pressure from my index finger to my middle finger because of the fist. I rotate the release around my wrist. If you make a fist you can pivot your hand side to side around your wrist. That's how I do it. 

In the videos that were posted, I did not see any movement or rotation in the shoulders, elbows or hands for that matter. Even a release that is set "hard" does not require a lot of movement to set it off. You will also adjust or get used to how far the release has to travel in order to fire. After a while, you will anchor or begin your shot sequence closer to the edge.


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## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

Mike2787 said:


> I have no post on my release to put my thumb on in order to draw the bow. I wrap my thumb around my index finger and keep it there through out the shot. My index finger is into the release as deep as it can be, and the release is touching my palm. My release hand is almost a fist as I draw the bow. I can't hardly squeeze my release with my fingers or transfer pressure from my index finger to my middle finger because of the fist. I rotate the release around my wrist. If you make a fist you can pivot your hand side to side around your wrist. That's how I do it.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Good Luck at Lancasters Tournament this weekend. 
DB


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## -bowfreak- (Oct 18, 2006)

Great thread and thank you guys who have been at this for so long (the quest of mastering this game) for adding to this discussion.

I would like to give a little insight into my shooting style. I am primarily a bowhunter but it is my goal to achieve top tournament archer skills. I am not the type who says I only want to kill deer. I am the type that says I only want to kill deer but I want to be able to hit the exact hair I am aiming at. I shot right handed/left eye dominant for many years and made the switch to lefty in the last year. It has been going great but as you know, 20 years of muscle memory is hard to reprogram.


Anyway....what I am learning is that the most important aspect for ME to get off a good shot is my bow arm. From my grip all the way to my shoulder is what I need to concentrate on the most. I have found that I absolutely need to shoot with a relaxed bow arm. It is straight (probably 95% extended) but I try to let all of the tension out of my bow arm. After I have come to full draw I have to concentrate on letting my bow arm just "hang there" in mid air with the bow attached to it (this is the way I describe it to myself). I am doing nothing more than resisting the bow. I am simply keeping my arm extended and not allowing the bow to come back and hit me in the face. I find my anchor and then aquire my target and stare at the spot I want to hit. I have my 4 finger Tempest gripped deep and firm. I wrap my thumb around the barrel and preload the barrel quite a bit. Then...while pulling building up pressure into the wall I simply concentrate on pulling equally on both ends of my release (pinky end and thumb end) while relaxing my fingers (mostly my index finger). When I do this correctly the shot goes off easily and I get an explosive follow through. When it feels right I don't even have to look where the arrow hit. I know immediately where it hit. If I build up too much pressure in my bow arm it seems to effect me relaxing my draw hand upon release and nothing works easy. It seems I have to pull my guts out when this happens. It will cause left/rights.

Honestly though.....there is not a better feeling than being able to feel a perfect shot go off. I am not sure what causes this to trip an archers trigger but it does. There is nothing like focusing on the target fully relaxed and then "boom" the shot goes off and you already know without looking where it went.

I am just a neophyte when it comes to PROPERLY shooting a bow so someone please tell me if I am going in the right direction or if there is something else that will make my shooting better or something else I need to work one. "He who has ears will listen."


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## Belicoso (Aug 22, 2006)

-bowfreak- said:


> Honestly though.....*there is not a better feeling than being able to feel a perfect shot go off.* I am not sure what causes this to trip an archers trigger but it does. There is nothing like focusing on the target fully relaxed and then *"boom" the shot goes* off and you already know without looking where it went.
> 
> I am just a neophyte when it comes to PROPERLY shooting a bow so someone please tell me if I am going in the right direction or if there is something else that will make my shooting better or something else I need to work one. "He who has ears will listen."


Same with me and I can only achieve this with proper tension,while pushing and pulling,not knowing when the shot goes of.I am not be able to do this with a trigger release,I have to use a Hooker or hinge to do this.


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## bigracklover (Feb 1, 2008)

Thank you guys, this is a very informative thread :thumbs_up I'm just getting started with a BT release so this thread comes at a good time. I went home last night and worked on some of the techniques explained here and it felt much more natural than what I had been doing. Thanks again :thumbs_up


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## mathewskiller (Jul 10, 2009)

Very nice


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## tpcowfish (Aug 11, 2008)

Yep, Big tnx to those spending there time here, to help those(me) to speed up the learning curve on the back tension, release styles that work,


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## Kstigall (Feb 24, 2004)

I'm definitely a nobody. My comments are what I've learned since the spring of '78 about learning archery....... Be patient with yourself and WORK at it! The only expectation to have is to improve. Activating the release is only a piece of the puzzle and like everything in archery executing the release part of a shot is 95.65891% (precisely :becky mental. I don't know the number of hours or shots but give yourself plenty of opportunity to get it right once. Then give yourself time to get it right multiple times in a row.

I re-committed myself this winter to improving. I had to get back to "work" or change my mind set. 

Then there is all the "pieces parts" of competition to work on but that is a whole other ball game....................sort of but not really.


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## tmorelli (Jul 31, 2005)

Kstigall said:


> I don't know the number of hours or shots.


My coach says it is 10,000 shots 


Precisely :teeth:......no, really.


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## field14 (May 21, 2002)

The biggest problem with all of this is that the "newbie" and even a lot of mid-level shooters want it YESTERDAY and are NOT willing to work for it.
They will set the release up one day until they are shooting it "good". Then, when they come in the next day and it doesn't work, or they have trouble getting things to 'go off'...guess what? You got it, they change the RELEASE AID setting again...because afterall...the RELEASE is the culprit for the change, isn't it?
So, this change ever day or every other day goes on and on and on. Then comes that bad league score or tournament score...and they figure oh, this back tension stuff isn't all it is cracked up to be...so back to their punchomatics or triggers they go...cuz they "shoot better that way anyways." Then, that doesn't work out either, so they try "back tension" again, and go thru the same thing...changing the setting daily or weekly or whenever they are struggling to get the release to fire.
They hardly ever "set it and forget it" and learn to shoot it at that setting and leave well enough alone!

I know several top echelon shooters that haven't changed the setting on their trip gate release in YEARS! They know that it is set right and if they are having problems...it sure isn't the RELEASE that has changed...it is the shooter doing something different!
I've never won a national title or set any world records and have had my share of shooting problems over the past several years...but...one thing I have learned is that speeding up a BT release is NOT the way to cure what ails you; most times...slowing it down is what will help more...IF you even change it at all. If you set the release so that you barely have to do anything to get it to trip...you are asking for problems and will be rewarded with those problems quickly.
Just remember something....with these hard-walled cams of today...If you pull into the wall by 1/20th of an inch more....your holding weight just went up a pound! So if you are pulling harder today than yesterday....you are fighting a losing battle and impact points are going to go all over the place.
As with any scientific experiment, you have to have a CONSTANT, something that does NOT change that you can measure yourself against. In learning BT...the RELEASE AID setting is about as good of a constant as it gets. SET THE RELEASE AND LEARN TO SHOOT IT and quit messing with the RELEASE...it isn't the problem.
Another word of advice? Set the release speed when you are somewhat tired. IMHO, and for me over the years, this works quite well. Set it when you are somewhat tired so that you aren't struggling super hard to get it to trip...and when you are fresh, it will trip well, and when you are tired, it will still trip without you going "Code Blue", ha
field14 (Tom D.)


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## mtmedic (Sep 20, 2004)

field14 said:


> The biggest problem with all of this is that the "newbie" and even a lot of mid-level shooters want it YESTERDAY and are NOT willing to work for it.
> They will set the release up one day until they are shooting it "good". Then, when they come in the next day and it doesn't work, or they have trouble getting things to 'go off'...guess what? You got it, they change the RELEASE AID setting again...because afterall...the RELEASE is the culprit for the change, isn't it?
> So, this change ever day or every other day goes on and on and on. Then comes that bad league score or tournament score...and they figure oh, this back tension stuff isn't all it is cracked up to be...so back to their punchomatics or triggers they go...cuz they "shoot better that way anyways." Then, that doesn't work out either, so they try "back tension" again, and go thru the same thing...changing the setting daily or weekly or whenever they are struggling to get the release to fire.
> They hardly ever "set it and forget it" and learn to shoot it at that setting and leave well enough alone!
> ...


This is so true with so many things related to this game. I''l be the first to admit I am guilty as hell here. I think it's how society has shaped us over the last ten or so years. We all want instant gratification and in archery we often get that with the odd phenom that I call " change syndrome". Anytime we add something new or change something in our setups we start to shoot better. This happens for a few days or hours depending on the person. What is really happening is that we are excited for this change because we believe it will make us shoot better and that then drives our confidence up which in turn intensifies our game. We focus harder and perform better to some degree. 

We can't rely on this though because we have not trained ourselves yet. After that newness wears off we see the same problems surface once again. This is where we need to identify that this is a sport and we are athletes and there has to be some level of consistent training. We have to forgo the idea that we can get this resolved right away and we must continue to work at it over and over and over... Eventually it will manifest itself into our subconscious, muscle memorized routine and when we realize that it is like a small epiphany. We are all capable we just have to put down the wrenches and continue to try!


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## Rolo (Dec 16, 2002)

As simplistic as this is for me...when I am shooting a hinge or thumb button...and when I am on top of my game...I have absolutely no idea how the infernal contraption is going off...and I'm pretty sure, I really don't want to know or even think about it...:wink:


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## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

I started my back tension journey last january and shot a hell of a lot up to hunting season and then my shooting fell off to just 1 or 2 days a week. Now that deer season is over and I am back to 6 or 7 days a week I am noticing that my journey has really took a turn in the right direction and many of the issues that I was having have now disappeared.

One thing that has really helped me in the last couple weeks on the 3-d course and at home is that when I don't feel right at full draw instead of just making it happen I am DOWN DRAWING and taking a breath and starting over. To me this is something that new guys who are coming from index finger releases never do because it is so easy to make them go off even when things aren't right, for example if you are running out of breath with a index finger release just shoot where with a hinge it may not go off for another 3 seconds and now you are shaking. I went to my first local shoot this weekend and probably did 15 down draws on the 40 shot course, it was cold and windy and the footing wasn't as perfect as my back yard. Letting down those 15 times and taking a deep breath and starting over gave me 30 out of 40 targets were a 12, it was a super easy course and instead of walking away again this year wishing I had shot better this year I shot better. To me this was one year of commitment not wasted. Can't wait to shoot a real course.


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## field14 (May 21, 2002)

mtmedic said:


> This is so true with so many things related to this game. I''l be the first to admit I am guilty as hell here. I think it's how society has shaped us over the last ten or so years. We all want instant gratification and in archery we often get that with the odd phenom that I call " change syndrome". Anytime we add something new or change something in our setups we start to shoot better. This happens for a few days or hours depending on the person. What is really happening is that we are excited for this change because we believe it will make us shoot better and that then drives our confidence up which in turn intensifies our game. We focus harder and perform better to some degree.
> 
> We can't rely on this though because we have not trained ourselves yet. After that newness wears off we see the same problems surface once again. This is where we need to identify that this is a sport and we are athletes and there has to be some level of consistent training. We have to forgo the idea that we can get this resolved right away and we must continue to work at it over and over and over... Eventually it will manifest itself into our subconscious, muscle memorized routine and when we realize that it is like a small epiphany. We are all capable we just have to put down the wrenches and continue to try!


I tell my students when they change something out of the blue (doesn't please me, but hey, it is THEIR slump they are about to enter, haha): "Anything new works great...ONCE. Let's see how this pans out over the long haul, and I'll bet you'll either go back, or you will change something yet again."


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## Kstigall (Feb 24, 2004)

tmorelli said:


> My coach says it is 10,000 shots
> 
> 
> Precisely :teeth:......no, really.


Great! Just the past 2.5 weeks have got me half way there! Add in the previous couple weeks and I'm closing on being a mediocre archer! 



Rolo said:


> As simplistic as this is for me...when I am shooting a hinge or thumb button...and when I am on top of my game...I have absolutely no idea how the infernal contraption is going off...and I'm pretty sure, I really don't want to know or even think about it...:wink:


EXACTLY!
But for a certain reason I'm not speaking of I couldn't help but "think" about it! I've found that once I start to draw "thinking" is a horrible thing for me to be doing!


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## Rolo (Dec 16, 2002)

Kstigall said:


> EXACTLY!
> But for a certain reason I'm not speaking of I couldn't help but "think" about it! I've found that once I start to draw "thinking" is a horrible thing for me to be doing!


I resent the fact that you alluded to the reference of the unthinkable...:tongue:


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## ohiorobp (Nov 20, 2011)

1955 said:


> The very cheapest way to try back tension, is to use the release you already have. Just try the methods described here, with whatever release you're using now.


How would one do that with a wrist strap and finger release? I'm at work now and can't quite picture it. Thanks


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## Kstigall (Feb 24, 2004)

ohiorobp said:


> How would one do that with a wrist strap and finger release? I'm at work now and can't quite picture it. Thanks


Michael Braden and Dietmar Trillus get it done with a strap on.........................release!!!!! The best I can figure, after studying M. Bradens shot at a tournament, is that his index finger is hooked tight on the trigger with the release hand in a fist for lack of a better word. Maintaining back tension at some point his bow hand "slips" in the strap with his index finger hooked on the trigger. "Slip" would be an exaggeration. M. Braden has written some stuff but I don't recall how he explains his shot.

Whatever release you use and however you operate it you have to develop confidence in your shot. Confidence that the arrow will hit where you intend for it to hit is essential. It comes with success.


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## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

ohiorobp said:


> How would one do that with a wrist strap and finger release? I'm at work now and can't quite picture it. Thanks


Here how Micheal does it. His release is not set light. Hevy pull. 

Video 

http://s194.photobucket.com/albums/z289/okiebwhtr/Archers/?action=view&current=Picture136.mp4

http://i194.photobucket.com/albums/z289/okiebwhtr/Archers/60020518.jpg


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## ocn (Sep 17, 2006)

thanks for the malware...luck I have some good anti malware


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## ohiorobp (Nov 20, 2011)

What malware are you talking about?


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## ohiorobp (Nov 20, 2011)

Daniel Boone said:


> Here how Micheal does it. His release is not set light. Hevy pull.
> 
> Video
> 
> ...


Ahhh, oh thanks much DB.


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## mtmedic (Sep 20, 2004)

field14 said:


> I tell my students when they change something out of the blue (doesn't please me, but hey, it is THEIR slump they are about to enter, haha): "Anything new works great...ONCE. Let's see how this pans out over the long haul, and I'll bet you'll either go back, or you will change something yet again."


99% of the time that is spot on! I do the same. I still struggle with this on occasion now instead of weekly. I made it a point to be a little better at practicing what I preach!


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## sharkred7 (Jul 19, 2005)

I haven't been on AT much any more as there was more fighting and bashing than info. Now THIS is the stuff that made AT so popular. GREAT THREAD DB

Funny to read this as I just switched from a relax release to a proactive aggressive release. Braden was in town shooting with us for a week and mentioned this. I started doing it and it works. I slowed my releases down, removed the clicker from one and got aggressive.

Last night while working on this at league I had my 31st arrow leave a little prematurely, and shot a 4. Finished with a 299 59x 

The guys I shoot with have also tried this more aggressive technique and the scores are getting better. I think those that are willing to try this will really reap teh benefits in pressure situations, this technique takes away teh tentativeness we get when we "try to hard to shoot a score" and not shoot a great SHOT.

Works for me


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## redman (Feb 22, 2003)

I have two carter jus cuz releases one is set light and one is heavy shootring them the same for 4 years most of the time i am useing the heavy one


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## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

Good thread to the top


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## fletched (May 10, 2006)

Daniel Boone said:


> Good thread to the top


Hey DB, don't you ever sleep? You are an AT zombie. LOL


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## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

fletched said:


> Hey DB, don't you ever sleep? You are an AT zombie. LOL


Hit the gym this evening and went to bed way to early. LOL Im not a good sleeper. Never have really be one to sleepling for longtime.
Best sleep I get is coming in from a morning hunt.
DB


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## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

Want to share another pros BT video. Jame Jamison one heck of a shooter. 

I want to mention something Jame really considers when shooting his release is holding weight. LOt of shooters like more holding weight and it something they consider to get the release to fire.


Jame Jamison. Jame won the ASA Classic last year. Made a shot under extreme pressure on 40yrds 14 ring to win. Maybe Jame will come talk about how he shoots his BT release. 

Video link

http://s194.photobucket.com/albums/z289/okiebwhtr/?action=view&current=Picture062.mp4


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## rsw (May 22, 2002)

DB: I can't speak for others, but I have most of the old releases on Dean's photo and they were primitive. Dean's Failsafe originally designed by Lloyd Napier who sold the line to Dean was one of the first really effective releases. Most of us carried continuous scars around from shooting those old plastic ledges with recurves. I never tried one on a compound as they were so sensitive to the slightest twist, but boy did they improve scores. I went from 520s on a field round to high 540s and occasional 550 in one short summer using a recurve and a plastic PSE ledge. 

I was privileged to shoot in the early years with several super pros including Dean, Terry, and Mike, all who have solidified their postition at the top of the best ever archery pros list. One could easily select any of them and entitle them as the best ever and I learned a lot from them. 

There is no single process that will yield the best results for all archers thanks to varying personality types. Unfortunately, there are those who are foolishly advising that this is the only way to "do it" or this is how you have to do it - they are totally misinformed or just ignorant. Mike, Terry, and Dean all did it in slightly different ways, but cemented their positions on top of the best ever list in our game doing it their way while adhering to the really key issue - maintaining back tension AND AIMING!!! Regardless of how you feel you are activating your BT hinge release, remember, it is only activated by a rotational motion. The only difference is in the technique one uses to create that rotation. I suspect that most of we old timers will say we use an active wrist/finger rotation to do so. The key is that I can maintain SOLID back tension while holding solidly on the dot that way. 

At any rate, I recommend you pay attention to XQuest or Mike2787 when they post on here. I guarantee you they know more about perfection and have experienced more than 99% of those who post here. Not only do they know it, but for certain, they did it better than any other.


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## montigre (Oct 13, 2008)

This is a very interesting and informative thread and I thank the accomplished shooters (old timers) who have contributed to it. Good job initiating it DB!!


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## field14 (May 21, 2002)

You hear 'some' mid-level archers say, "yep, with back tension, you come to full draw, "settle in", get onto the x, and then "start your pinch."...>Say WHAT? "settle in and "start" your pinch?

Starting and stopping is one of the WORST things you can do. You now have to make up ALL of what you just lost by settling in...and then start up again? NOT!
Think about this.... MAINTAINING what you have is a primary key..."Transferring the tension" is more of what should really be done...NOT 'settling in'...you LOSE tension when you do this and have to regain. The "starting your pinch" is indicative that you STOPPED doing something, isn't it? Being aggressive and not stopping and keeping things smooth and steady through out the sequence...and NOT jerky also is more preferable; you never let up during the shot sequence; not even a little bit (as in, 'then' I start my pinch'). The site WILL move, so, "let it float and shoot the shot."

field14 (Tom D.)


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## Jame (Feb 16, 2003)

Back tension should be continuos as you draw your bow and go to anchor. It should never be started except during your draw. 

I agree with Eric. My release is set up with alot of travel. This keeps me aggressive with my shots for the most part. If I start getting stagnant with my release I notice my pin wants to bob up and down or rt at the end of my shot my bow will dip and fire. Thats all caused from not being aggressive. The cams inch forward and bam the bow dips and fires. 
As I draw and come to anchor my back tension continues even before I am on the spot aiming. I never want to start my bt. Its dang near impossible. If I start thinking about when is it gonna fire then I lost concentration on my aim or shot execution. This is why I set my release up slow. I can be aggressive and I dont have to worry about misfiring. It allows me to use strong, aggressive bt. This also allows me to feel the muscles in my draw arm relax like my bicep, forarm and I relax my hand some. After I am anchored I apply a little more tension on my middle and ring finger allows the release to rotate during my aggressive back tension.
I like my release to fire between 1230 and 1. I anchor the tip of my release ( the part of the handle my ring finger is on) at 1030 -11 and it fires around 1. 

To me the key to shooting the scores you want is mastering a release with good back tension. You want to be aggressive with it. Dont allow yourself to get stagnant with your release. Make sure theres alot of travel. IMO firing around 1 oclock is probably far enough as long as you are anchoring at 11 or before. If your release is firing before 12 oclock its to fast imo. 
Master the release and back tension. Dont let it master you.
jame


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## chevman (Nov 3, 2006)

Great post...thanks Jame.


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## edgerat (Dec 14, 2011)

http://www.youtube.com/user/ArcheryTalkVideo#p/u/4/Y8glZiI9fUw 

Just wanted to add this to this "end all be all RELEASE thread"


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## -bowfreak- (Oct 18, 2006)

Can you guys that just forget you pin shoot with a multi pin sight like this too? Basically...just focusing on what you want to hit.


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## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

edgerat said:


> http://www.youtube.com/user/ArcheryTalkVideo#p/u/4/Y8glZiI9fUw
> 
> Just wanted to add this to this "end all be all RELEASE thread"


Good video and it nice to see everyone give there input and why! Lancasters video are some good stuff from all the pros.

DB


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## chuckatuk (May 28, 2003)

Jame said:


> Back tension should be continuos as you draw your bow and go to anchor. It should never be started except during your draw.
> 
> I agree with Eric. My release is set up with alot of travel. This keeps me aggressive with my shots for the most part. If I start getting stagnant with my release I notice my pin wants to bob up and down or rt at the end of my shot my bow will dip and fire. Thats all caused from not being aggressive. The cams inch forward and bam the bow dips and fires.
> As I draw and come to anchor my back tension continues even before I am on the spot aiming. I never want to start my bt. Its dang near impossible. If I start thinking about when is it gonna fire then I lost concentration on my aim or shot execution. This is why I set my release up slow. I can be aggressive and I dont have to worry about misfiring. It allows me to use strong, aggressive bt. This also allows me to feel the muscles in my draw arm relax like my bicep, forarm and I relax my hand some. After I am anchored I apply a little more tension on my middle and ring finger allows the release to rotate during my aggressive back tension.
> ...


How is your bow arm? Are you static or are you pushing to the target?How much are you giving the shot with your bow arm?I


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## Jame (Feb 16, 2003)

My bow arm is not static put Im not pushing it aggressively. I have my wrist bones pushed into the handle which causes the bow to go forward when the shot breaks. Good bone to bone alignment from your shoulder through your arm into your hand and into your handle is what makes this easier for me to repeat. I think "push the pin in the spot" mainly so my pin doesnt want to fall out the bottom. IMO if you push your bow arm aggressively into the handle on a draw stop style bow your are creating unnecessary force on the bows handle which will cause lefts and rts or highs and lows depending on how your hand is seated in the grip. 
These are my prefered ways and my opinions.
Hope this answered your question chuckatuk
Jame


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## chuckatuk (May 28, 2003)

Jame said:


> My bow arm is not static put Im not pushing it aggressively. I have my wrist bones pushed into the handle which causes the bow to go forward when the shot breaks. Good bone to bone alignment from your shoulder through your arm into your hand and into your handle is what makes this easier for me to repeat. I think "push the pin in the spot" mainly so my pin doesnt want to fall out the bottom. IMO if you push your bow arm aggressively into the handle on a draw stop style bow your are creating unnecessary force on the bows handle which will cause lefts and rts or highs and lows depending on how your hand is seated in the grip.
> These are my prefered ways and my opinions.
> Hope this answered your question chuckatuk
> Jame


It helps a lot and clears up a lot of things for me.I always heard "strong shot" but never knew if it was 2 pounds against the wall or 20.Sometimes if the shot didn't break it was close to 40 LOL...Thanks for your time


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## -bowfreak- (Oct 18, 2006)

-bowfreak- said:


> Can you guys that just forget you pin shoot with a multi pin sight like this too? Basically...just focusing on what you want to hit.


Sorry about this gibberish. What I was trying to say is:

Can you guys shoot a multi pin sight and still ignore the pin? If shooting a 30 yard target and you need to shoot your second pin do you trust your brain to center the second pin subconsciously?


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## mrbillbrown (Sep 30, 2009)

Saved to add to the library. Thanks to all the advice given


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## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

Those interviews from the pros at Lancaster AT doing is something I honestly would like to see more.

I plan to while Im out get more opionions/videos at the shoots from these guys to post here. Hearing it one thing but seeing in motion is even better.

I like the fact they are willing to take time to give back to other archers with there time.

DB


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## Jame (Feb 16, 2003)

chuckatuk said:


> It helps a lot and clears up a lot of things for me.I always heard "strong shot" but never knew if it was 2 pounds against the wall or 20.Sometimes if the shot didn't break it was close to 40 LOL...Thanks for your time


Very welcome.


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## goodgrief (Feb 15, 2007)

Thanks !!! Finally a thread that really helps !!!

I had not had a 300 on five spot since last summer ... Now have had one each of the last three days !!!

Thanks DB , Eric and the rest :wink::thumbs_up

Pumped for Vegas now !!!


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## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

Mike2787 said:


> I think I've shot more arrows with a hinge release than anyone on the planet and I agree with what Eric says 100%. People often ask me how I shoot a release and I honestly tell them that I have no clue. After close to 40 years shooting a non-trigger release, everything I do is sub-conscience and muscle memory. I know I rotate the release after I settle in and aim. I always thought that I put more tension on my pinkie and ring fingers but considering how tight my grip is on my release, that may be hard to do. Frank Pearson told me he has watched me shoot with a very close eye and he said that I move my wrist to set off the release. Makes perfect sense to me. As far as back tension goes, I know I shoot with it. When I was younger, I would creep as I aimed, something you could get away with 20 years ago, but I would still explode or have a dynamic follow through off of my shot. Part of that is probably the result of the stresses built up in the muscles that are used for pulling and pushing the bow but the biggest part is the result of a surprise release. The first time a person experiences a true surprise release, their reaction and follow through is going to be somewhat larger than subsequint shots.
> 
> I honestly don't know how The Hammer and Dietmar get away with shooting the way they do. If I shot that way, people down range would be in mortal danger. It has proven to be very successful for them so I keep an open mind.
> 
> I think the keys to shooting well are to keep it simple, relax, develop a good routine that works for you and not listen to every Tom Dick and Harry that has an opinion.


Looks like what your doing working well! Congrats on fine win at Lancasters this weekend.

Guys Mike won the Senior Class at Lancasters Archery. Impressive win with the head to head shooting.
DB


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## AR&BOW (May 24, 2009)

edgerat said:


> http://www.youtube.com/user/ArcheryTalkVideo#p/u/4/Y8glZiI9fUw
> 
> Just wanted to add this to this "end all be all RELEASE thread"


Excellent video and very helpful.


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## Mike2787 (Jul 16, 2002)

First off, Rob and his crew at Lancaster Archery Supply put on a fantastic tournament. 

I was able to reinforce some of the things that were mentioned in this thread and apply them to the way I went about my business in the tournament this weekend. Usually I'm good for a bunch of let-downs but I decided after reading what Eric and others wrote that I would commit to my shots and just let it happen. I only let-down once all weekend. I made an extra effort to relax my release hand and rotate through the shot. Every other thought was aiming in the middle. It's funny what happens when you do things right.


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## Bobmuley (Jan 14, 2004)

Mike2787 said:


> First off, Rob and his crew at Lancaster Archery Supply put on a fantastic tournament.
> 
> I was able to reinforce some of the things that were mentioned in this thread and apply them to the way I went about my business in the tournament this weekend. Usually I'm good for a bunch of let-downs but I decided after reading what Eric and others wrote that I would commit to my shots and just let it happen. I only let-down once all weekend. I made an extra effort to relax my release hand and rotate through the shot. Every other thought was aiming in the middle. It's funny what happens when you do things right.


Been a long time since I've had the pleasure of watching you shoot. Thanks to Lancaster's coverage I got to see it again. Congrats!


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## field14 (May 21, 2002)

Mike2787 said:


> First off, Rob and his crew at Lancaster Archery Supply put on a fantastic tournament.
> 
> I was able to reinforce some of the things that were mentioned in this thread and apply them to the way I went about my business in the tournament this weekend. Usually I'm good for a bunch of let-downs but I decided after reading what Eric and others wrote that I would commit to my shots and just let it happen. I only let-down once all weekend. I made an extra effort to relax my release hand and rotate through the shot. Every other thought was aiming in the middle. It's funny what happens when you do things right.


Mike,
Isn't it refreshing to have a "review" every now and again? In spite of years and years of experience, sometimes we all just fall off the beaten path, and little aggravating things creep in there to take us ever so slightly off our game. We've heard all this "stuff" so many times, and yet, over and over again, some little thing just doesn't quite click right in our subconscious and a little thing becomes a big thing and screws everything up...for awhile.

You sure had it together is past weekend! Congratulations on the great win!!! Now, keep that focus for Vegas...and beyond.

field14 (Tom D.)


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## Bossmoss (Aug 25, 2005)

Great post DB.


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## ILOVE3D (Feb 4, 2009)

What a great thread DB, thanks for starting it. Lots of good info here and thanks to all the pro's that have chimed in with their suggestions as well.


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## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

I needed this thread, It is making me a better shooter so keep it going guys. I had become stagnant and this has opened my eyes to some new thoughts that are really healping.


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## Ancient Archer (Sep 25, 2008)

First of all, let me state that I am strictly an amateur archer of limited talent. I do not compete except against myself in my back yard and hunt on my own property of limited acreage. So, given that, I continue to experiment with my release technique(s) using a Carter 4-finger thumb release.

Use the thumb to trigger the release; quick, easy, but not always the most accurate for me.
Use the back tension release method using the rhomboid muscles to squeeze the shoulder blades together to trigger the release; slow, mentally a deliberate procedure, but perhaps most accurate when done correctly for me.
and finally, I simply relax the forefinger on the release which causes the remaining fingers to allow the release to turn & trigger the release; easiest, fastest, perhaps(?) as accurate as with BT for me. Relaxing the forefinger is easier than squeezing the thumb trigger.

Could it be that the latter method is what they are doing when "rotating" the release???

I usually find it very difficult to hold an aim for more than 3-5 seconds. With this in mind, relaxing the forefinger method seems to work well, but it can be easy to get a premature release if not careful. I do like this method though.


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## RJseniorpro (Jan 12, 2009)

*Db*

Chance don't pull on the release at all. I shot with him friday at lancasters classic, and we had a talk about how he shoots his release. After he settles in and starts his aim, he relaxes his first 2 fingers and his hand at the same time. No pulling of the release, the relaxation of the hand and fingers will rotate the release and it fires. I use to shoot the same way and got away from it and it hurt me, hopefully i have returned. Randall


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## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

RJseniorpro said:


> Chance don't pull on the release at all. I shot with him friday at lancasters classic, and we had a talk about how he shoots his release. After he settles in and starts his aim, he relaxes his first 2 fingers and his hand at the same time. No pulling of the release, the relaxation of the hand and fingers will rotate the release and it fires. I use to shoot the same way and got away from it and it hurt me, hopefully i have returned. Randall



Ill see if CHance can come give his explanation. Thanks DB


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## edgerat (Dec 14, 2011)

I would be interested to hear that as well!


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## chevman (Nov 3, 2006)

RJseniorpro said:


> Chance don't pull on the release at all. I shot with him friday at lancasters classic, and we had a talk about how he shoots his release. After he settles in and starts his aim, he relaxes his first 2 fingers and his hand at the same time. No pulling of the release, the relaxation of the hand and fingers will rotate the release and it fires. I use to shoot the same way and got away from it and it hurt me, hopefully i have returned. Randall


Witch two fingers...his pointer and middle or pinky and ring?


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## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

Daniel Boone said:


> Ill see if CHance can come give his explanation. Thanks DB


Already sent him a message on facebook. Chance is a cool dude and always more than willing to help. Calmest archer I ever seen.
Good luck in Florida!
DB


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## ohiorobp (Nov 20, 2011)

As someone whom is just switching over to BT this thread is priceless. My release should be here in a few days so the reading has been very helpful in helping me prepare. Thanks again.


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## Ancient Archer (Sep 25, 2008)

Relaxing the finger(s) as noted above is a clean, smooth & easy way to trigger the release. After reading the above, it sounds like I should continue using this release method. Thanks DB for raising the subject.


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## rsw (May 22, 2002)

One quick caution concerning "relaxing" fingers to activate a release: this is conducive to relaxing the shot process. Be aware that you must retain strong back tension while trying to activate the release by relaxing finger tension. In a way, it does detract from your concentration on aiming while trying to do this.


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## force1 (Jul 14, 2004)

Watch video on 2011 landcaster classic of Reo , you can see the release moving , im thinking he is doing this to put constant tension on limbs to keep pin steady and you cant argue with 3 wins in row . Actually seen it a lot better on an outdoor world shoot , I think it was nimes.


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## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

force1 said:


> Watch video on 2011 landcaster classic of Reo , you can see the release moving , im thinking he is doing this to put constant tension on limbs to keep pin steady and you cant argue with 3 wins in row . Actually seen it a lot better on an outdoor world shoot , I think it was nimes.


Not sure but Reo may not be shooting a BT release. Anyone here know if Reo was shooting thumb or BT?
DB


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## hossa1881 (Apr 1, 2010)

I think he shoots a truball ht


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## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

hossa1881 said:


> I think he shoots a truball ht


Is that a thumb release. He shot a Carter Insatiable for years.
DB


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## Belicoso (Aug 22, 2006)

Daniel Boone said:


> Is that a thumb release. He shot a Carter Insatiable for years.
> DB


No HT it´s a hinge type release.


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## hossa1881 (Apr 1, 2010)

Its a hinge, im not 100% on whether thats what hes shooting, hopefully someone smarter than i will chime in


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## shortarrow (Jul 31, 2008)

hossa1881 said:


> this thread has come at the perfect timing for me, as ive got a bt release coming in the mail later this week. Ive tried the pulling the bow apart method and i felt really wild on the release and follow through...explosion is an understatement, more like nuclear explosion. My sight picture was really spastic and I couldnt hit a barn if I was standing in it. It was definitly a suprise release though. I'm going to try what has been discussed...getting to full draw, holding against the wall, then transfering the weight to my middle finger. That sounds a lot easier to control then pulling the bow apart. Thanks for the post guys, gave me some new ideas to try out to get away from the index.


So basically you have given up on all the advantages of learning to squeeze your back muscles together to trigger a realease (ANY RELEASE), before you even got started. Why even purchase a hinge if you aren't going to do it right? In the OP's post he said these guys rotate the release to get it to fire. That is correct, everyone does that. Back Tension is what CAUSES that rotation. 

And if you thought you were using "Back Tension" buy tring "to tear the bow apart", that isn't back tension shooting at all. That is trying to tear the bow apart. Sorry, but I recently learned "Back Tension" and can shoot better than I ever dreamed of. It took a LLLOOOOOOOONNNNNNG TIME but was very well worth it. I am not a fan of these threads especially when they discourage people from learning to execute a shot PROPERLY by basically saying that a shortcut is just as good or even better.


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## kidnutso (Aug 29, 2004)

dw'struth said:


> I understand that the release has to move to fire. I think what got me was when they said the "wrist" was rotated to fire the shot. That is what made me think, "hold on there." lol
> 
> Eric said it is in his fingers, not his wrist. He also said that different people do it differently. Anyone that knows me knows that I have no shame in learning something from someone else. I can honestly say that I have not given this method, using fingers, of firing a release much of a chance. That is because most everything that I have read says to move nothing.....just keep tension out of your arms, and let it move on its on.
> 
> I will give it a shot for sure. Lord knows it couldn't hurt anything!


A couple of years ago, I was shooting pretty good (I'm no where near a pro level) using the method that Eric talks about. I also took a GRIV class a few years ago and he explained using a hinge release the same way. Although, I was applying the technique to a thumb trigger. This method seemed to work well too. 

Then (and I think it was more from not having time to shoot as much and practice like I should), I start developing some release problems. I also think it was made worse by something else Eric talked about in worrying too much about what your pin is doing on the target. 

Well, I started reading all these different methods about pulling through, squeezing the shoulder blades, push pull....and all that. And it did nothing but confuse me more and make it worse. I thought if I tried them more, I could shoot better. Uh-uh. 

So I've decided I just have to start trying to find more time to practice and shoot. And I'm sticking with my thumb trigger and am going to dedicate myself to the Eric method. It worked before. It should work again and continue working. 

Oh...I do want to add...getting older doesn't help out too much either. LOL


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## hossa1881 (Apr 1, 2010)

shortarrow said:


> So basically you have given up on all the advantages of learning to squeeze your back muscles together to trigger a realease (ANY RELEASE), before you even got started. Why even purchase a hinge if you aren't going to do it right? In the OP's post he said these guys rotate the release to get it to fire. That is correct, everyone does that. Back Tension is what CAUSES that rotation.
> 
> And if you thought you were using "Back Tension" buy tring "to tear the bow apart", that isn't back tension shooting at all. That is trying to tear the bow apart. Sorry, but I recently learned "Back Tension" and can shoot better than I ever dreamed of. It took a LLLOOOOOOOONNNNNNG TIME but was very well worth it. I am not a fan of these threads especially when they discourage people from learning to execute a shot PROPERLY by basically saying that a shortcut is just as good or even better.


Wow, dont know if u were meaning to come off offensive but...dude settle down. as i stated i am pretty new to the whole bt thing and really am just going through trial and error. i will admit that i probably have a lotof error in what i was/am doing, but it is a learning curve. apparently i was wrong with the "pull the bow apart" strategy that i was told to do. the good news is i have been practicing all week and seeing there is a light at the end of this tunnel...granted i am still shooting like crap compared to how i was with a trigger, but that is to be expected. its threads like these that actually help people, like me, who are struggling with a certain concept by giving a different technique or point of view. As i said before chill out dude, if u dont like informative threads like these, by all means skip over it and read the "which ----- is better" threads.


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## EGriggs (Mar 11, 2003)

shortarrow said:


> So basically you have given up on all the advantages of learning to squeeze your back muscles together to trigger a realease (ANY RELEASE), before you even got started. Why even purchase a hinge if you aren't going to do it right? In the OP's post he said these guys rotate the release to get it to fire. That is correct, everyone does that. Back Tension is what CAUSES that rotation.
> 
> And if you thought you were using "Back Tension" buy tring "to tear the bow apart", that isn't back tension shooting at all. That is trying to tear the bow apart. Sorry, but I recently learned "Back Tension" and can shoot better than I ever dreamed of. It took a LLLOOOOOOOONNNNNNG TIME but was very well worth it. I am not a fan of these threads especially when they discourage people from learning to execute a shot PROPERLY by basically saying that a shortcut is just as good or even better.


Wow!  

I mention in my posts that I would maintain back tension throughout the shot process, but I guess that since its not "true back tension" that fires my release then I've been doing it WRONG all these years? Please educate me since I obviously don't have a clue as to what I'm talking about.... :wink:

What I'm not a fan of is folks that come on a thread and bash people for trying to learn and help others. Intentional or not, this is what you're doing. So what if you THINK your method is correct and you don't like what's been posted here in this thread. Your contribution is garbage to what has been a pretty good and educational thread. Who are you to tell these folks that are trying to learn a different style of shooting back tension releases that this method is wrong? 

The whole point of this thread was to educate archers as to a different way of executing a back tension release. I as many others have shot several different ways in the past. I can tell you that the methods I describe here ARE what has proven to work best for me. More to the point, these methods have also proven to work for many others as well. They may not be the best for everyone (obviously including you) but for people who have struggled with certain issues regarding the execution, this is an alternative. It's not a shortcut and I'm not telling anyone that it's better, but trying to explain why it works for me and others and let them decide if it is easier for them to make it work.


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## Mike2787 (Jul 16, 2002)

EGriggs said:


> Wow!
> 
> I mention in my posts that I would maintain back tension throughout the shot process, but I guess that since its not "true back tension" that fires my release then I've been doing it WRONG all these years? Please educate me since I obviously don't have a clue as to what I'm talking about.... :wink:
> 
> ...


Nicely put


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## EGriggs (Mar 11, 2003)

Mike2787 said:


> Nicely put


Thank you Mike. And congratulations on your win this past weekend!!! :thumbs_up


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## montigre (Oct 13, 2008)

Thank you, Eric and Mike. 

Shortarrow, As a struggler myself who's been trying for the past 3 years to execute a consistent shot using just the back muscles, I have taken some of the information posted in this thread, significantly increased the travel in my hinge, and have already seen a marked improvement in my overall execution. 

Is it a quick fix, no! Will I have to practice the things I’m picking up, heavens yes!! Having the opportunity to review posts like these and pick up some pearls from shooters who have already navigated through some of these same waters is invaluable and I’m personally very grateful to all of the experienced shooters who have commented on this thread. There is no one size fits all in this sport, and I would hope that you refrain from passing along your negativity in such a way that would hinder such exchanges in the future. If you don’t like what’s being discussed, please, just move onto another thread. Many here are very willing to learn and try new approaches in our efforts to become better archers.


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## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

shortarrow said:


> So basically you have given up on all the advantages of learning to squeeze your back muscles together to trigger a realease (ANY RELEASE), before you even got started. Why even purchase a hinge if you aren't going to do it right? In the OP's post he said these guys rotate the release to get it to fire. That is correct, everyone does that. Back Tension is what CAUSES that rotation.
> 
> And if you thought you were using "Back Tension" buy tring "to tear the bow apart", that isn't back tension shooting at all. That is trying to tear the bow apart. Sorry, but I recently learned "Back Tension" and can shoot better than I ever dreamed of. It took a LLLOOOOOOOONNNNNNG TIME but was very well worth it. I am not a fan of these threads especially when they discourage people from learning to execute a shot PROPERLY by basically saying that a shortcut is just as good or even better.


Gosh thread was going so good and figured it wouldnt last forever. Maybe instead of trying to say these guys are trying to help everyone here, maybe just give us your exsperiance and how you shoot BT. Eveyone been very appreceitive of these guys trying to help archers here. You do realize these guys have won more than share of major archer tournaments correct. Seems you got all the answers so please explain how this magical BT release stuff happens. You dont even shoot tournaments correct? Your telling these pros there doing it all wrong. Come on man! Have you not read all that have thanked these guys for coming here and giving advise?
DB
DB


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## rn3 (Jan 4, 2008)

If most people would learn to shoot fingers, before jumping to a release aid they would get a better understanding of what back tension really is. Seems that most new archers think that the way you trigger the release determines whether your shooting back tension. Olympic archers shoot with a clicker and use back tension to pull thru the clicker, once thru the clicker they basically turn loose of the string while maintaining back tension. This technique with a release aid would be considered punching the release, which some people do and shoot really well and they still maintain their tension. The method you use to trigger the release has nothing to do with maintaining back tension.


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## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

This is the best thread of the year and we are not going to let one upset person screw it up, I have dedicated the last year to learning how to shoot my hinge and have went through many stages of confusion and success and disappointment. I am just on the edge of mastering my hinge and this thread is definately a step in the right direction so keep it up.


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## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

rn3 said:


> If most people would learn to shoot fingers, before jumping to a release aid they would get a better understanding of what back tension really is. Seems that most new archers think that the way you trigger the release determines whether your shooting back tension. Olympic archers shoot with a clicker and use back tension to pull thru the clicker, once thru the clicker they basically turn loose of the string while maintaining back tension. This technique with a release aid would be considered punching the release, which some people do and shoot really well and they still maintain their tension. The method you use to trigger the release has nothing to do with maintaining back tension.


Very well said and I totally agree
DB


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## tmorelli (Jul 31, 2005)

I think I see part of the spirit of shortarrow's post. 

There are multiple considerations here that need to be addressed for sustainable/consistent performance. If a persons focus is on or distracted by the manipulation of the release (more likely in the manners described here IMO) then target panic, punching, etc is likely to occur eventually.

However, hinges also can only be shot with "pure" backtension by a very, very few. For most (myself included) that pure back tension, even when very dynamic (think recurve shooter) doesn't produce the rotation required to set off the release without some other input (load transfer in the fingers). 

It is the balance of those elements and the strong mental game (specifically focus on the X- not the release in this instance) that allows the pro's to do this so well.

-just my misinformed opinions (as I've been told lately).


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## chuckatuk (May 28, 2003)

EGriggs said:


> Wow!
> 
> I mention in my posts that I would maintain back tension throughout the shot process, but I guess that since its not "true back tension" that fires my release then I've been doing it WRONG all these years? Please educate me since I obviously don't have a clue as to what I'm talking about.... :wink:
> 
> ...


Thanks again Eric for the time you have taken to explain this.It is not every day one of the best shooters in the sport takes the time to explain a technique on Archery Talk.Just beleive that 99 % of us really appreciate it.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

EGriggs said:


> Wow!
> 
> ...
> 
> The whole point of this thread was to educate archers as to a different way of executing a back tension release. I as many others have shot several different ways in the past. I can tell you that the methods I describe here ARE what has proven to work best for me. More to the point, these methods have also proven to work for many others as well. They may not be the best for everyone (obviously including you) but for people who have struggled with certain issues regarding the execution, this is an alternative. It's not a shortcut and I'm not telling anyone that it's better, but trying to explain why it works for me and others and let them decide if it is easier for them to make it work.


Hello Eric:

Well done.

Thank you for your efforts to educate shooters.

Some folks are problem SOLVERS.
Some folks are problem IDENTIFIERS.

A teacher looks for a WAY to explain things, so that the "lightbulb" goes ON.

There is NEVER just one way to explain things.
Each shooter will have a particular way that things just MAKE SENSE.

So, I search and search and search for ways to explain things.

Soooo,
Eric,
your explanation ADDS to the wealth of knowledge available here on AT.

Gives me another tool in my "tool bag" to explain things.

I am a collector of wise sayings.

So,
thank you, Eric.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

Note to DB.

Thank you sir,
for starting this excellent topic.

Your contributions over all the years.......

simply AMAZING.


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## Mike2787 (Jul 16, 2002)

EGriggs said:


> Thank you Mike. And congratulations on your win this past weekend!!! :thumbs_up


I should be the one thanking you. I think most pros will agree that after so many years of shooting, we get into a routine and we don't think about our shot the way a newbie might. It becomes rote. Just reading your post on how you execute your shot just re-inforced things for me. I was able to shoot some of my best "under pressure" shots in a long time. 

I remember as a youth archer, I would go with my family to major tournaments and I would try to mimic the archers I thought had the best form. This never worked. I would go home shooting worse than when I got there. It wasn't until I stopped trying to imitate others and developed the things that worked for me, did I start to have any success.

Looking at the pictures for the Lancaster shoot, I see so many different stances and anchors and types of releases being used that you have to conclude that there is not just one way to skin this cat.


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## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

Mike2787 said:


> I should be the one thanking you. I think most pros will agree that after so many years of shooting, we get into a routine and we don't think about our shot the way a newbie might. It becomes rote. Just reading your post on how you execute your shot just re-inforced things for me. I was able to shoot some of my best "under pressure" shots in a long time.
> 
> I remember as a youth archer, I would go with my family to major tournaments and I would try to mimic the archers I thought had the best form. This never worked. I would go home shooting worse than when I got there. It wasn't until I stopped trying to imitate others and developed the things that worked for me, did I start to have any success.
> 
> Looking at the pictures for the Lancaster shoot, I see so many different stances and anchors and types of releases being used that you have to conclude that there is not just one way to skin this cat.


Is this what Dean keeps telling me? LOL Look in the mirror Dan for the promblem! Oldman sure proud of you winning. He said Mike handled pressure well at a young age, said you were never intimadated by him, mentioned a few shoots coming down to last arrow! 
DB
DB


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## pronghorn (Jul 16, 2003)

rsw said:


> One quick caution concerning "relaxing" fingers to activate a release: this is conducive to relaxing the shot process. Be aware that you must retain strong back tension while trying to activate the release by relaxing finger tension. In a way, it does detract from your concentration on aiming while trying to do this.


Well said Roger! I think the theme of this thread is staying aggressive throughout the shot.


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## Archerybuff (Oct 6, 2002)

I agree with Nuts....one of the best threads in a long time. Thanks to DB for starting it and thanks to the guys that know a helluva lot more than I do for helping out

I set my release a little slower, flipped the half moon so I don't have my clicker and have been working on being more aggressive through the entire shot process. Last night it started feeling a little more comfortable. I have to admit a couple evenings this week shooting in my basement things weren't going well. I almost changed everything back. Lots and lots of 5 yard shots later, I think I may be on to something..... thanks to the help on this thread.


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## Kstigall (Feb 24, 2004)

Mike2787 said:


> I should be the one thanking you. I think most pros will agree that after so many years of shooting, we get into a routine and we don't think about our shot the way a newbie might. It becomes rote. Just reading your post on how you execute your shot just re-inforced things for me. I was able to shoot some of my best "under pressure" shots in a long time.
> 
> I remember as a youth archer, I would go with my family to major tournaments and I would try to mimic the archers I thought had the best form. This never worked. I would go home shooting worse than when I got there. It wasn't until I stopped trying to imitate others and developed the things that worked for me, did I start to have any success.
> 
> *Looking at the pictures for the Lancaster shoot, I see so many different stances and anchors and types of releases being used that you have to conclude that there is not just one way to skin this cat*.


Just a few weeks after watching over 10 hours of competition at the 2006 LAS Classic I was shooting a solid 55+ X's in BHFS. Studying so many tremendous archers competing at one time at a high level freed my mind to find "my" shot. I shot some good scores but developed "issues" that I've now committed to overcoming. Folks all too often are looking for a magic bean and the crazy thing is many times they actually believe they found it. There's more than one way to skin a cat.................


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## edgerat (Dec 14, 2011)

I don't want to speak for the Honey Badger but, if I recall, he shoots an HT3 indoors and an Absolute or ST360 outdoors. He does that so that he can execute his shot during a lull in the wind outdoors.


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## orthopt (Mar 12, 2005)

AWESOME THREAD everyone this has helped me a bunch, to fine tune what I have been to doing to find some consistency again in my shot. The great thing is that everyone knows what works for them so take out of that knowledge and find what works for you . That has been my biggest trouble is trying to be or do like everyone else who wins and I keep loosing, ha ha ha, so information like this with so many different professional people, it what archery talk used to be about. Thanks again all this is what makes archery exciting.


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## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

edgerat said:


> I don't want to speak for the Honey Badger but, if I recall, he shoots an HT3 indoors and an Absolute or ST360 outdoors. He does that so that he can execute his shot during a lull in the wind outdoors.


I thought I ask at lancaster which release he shoots and was told a ST360.
DB


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## ferretboy (Aug 15, 2007)

I must say that this is probably the most in depth and informative description that I have ever heard by a pro. Thanks for offering your style as an option. Sometimes we only hear half the story and are only willing to try one method. Greatly Appreciated. Dave Henderson


EGriggs said:


> Hey Dan. I saw this post and thought I'd jump in (at the risk of being told I've been doing it wrong all these years... )
> 
> Let me start by saying that shooting a triggerless back tension release is something that will ultimately be done differently for many people. My method isn't one that will work for everyone, but anyone who's ever struggled to shoot a BT release would be doing themselves a favor just to keep an open mind and try it.
> 
> ...


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## Bois-le-Duc (Jan 23, 2007)

Hey Eric,
I appreciate you coming on AT to give your simple and effective explanations on BT and some of its variables. I took most of what was said and incorporated it into my shot routine and the results are paying off incredibly. I still remember when you were youg teen shooting 3-D's up here in the Northeast, you sure could shoot some good scores, still can. Please don't let a few people with narrow views keep you and the other Pro's from giving the many grateful archers here on AT your personal insight on all the aspects of Archery. Good luck at Vegas.


EGriggs said:


> Hey Dan. I saw this post and thought I'd jump in (at the risk of being told I've been doing it wrong all these years... )
> 
> Let me start by saying that shooting a triggerless back tension release is something that will ultimately be done differently for many people. My method isn't one that will work for everyone, but anyone who's ever struggled to shoot a BT release would be doing themselves a favor just to keep an open mind and try it.
> 
> ...


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

Well, DB, Best Thread of the Year and it's still January... So I gave it rating.


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## edgerat (Dec 14, 2011)

http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=1425210 ht3

http://www.youtube.com/user/archerytv#p/u/36/aMZAwIJlLdo ht3, it looks like and you can see his hand rotating as he executes "El Shot"

I will have to look but, I know there is video of him during the World Cup shooting a thumber outdoors


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## edgerat (Dec 14, 2011)

http://www.youtube.com/user/archerytv#p/u/189/IGbOvpEskYU

Found it, both Reo and Rodger using thumber Tru-Balls 

These guys have their setups down to the gnat's ass and know what works for them in a given condition, amazing.


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## Scott.Barrett (Oct 26, 2008)

Best thread on AT ever!


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## rsw (May 22, 2002)

Since it seems Mr. Shortarrow is a superior archer to Eric, Mike, and a few others, I hope he will spend a lot of time addressing his experience and educating me regarding how to do it the one and only CORRECT WAY. Or perhaps he should consider who he is correcting and the resumes that they have created by doing it wrong. Just think how good they might have been if they had done it the one and only correct way. This type of comment is pure bunk and the reason so many super threads go down the tube here. Just think about what you are saying before you open your mouth so you don't hang it out there for ridicule.


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## ohiorobp (Nov 20, 2011)

Eric, 
As someone fairly new to the archery world. I say thank you. Please, please......did I say please. Comeback often. For these threads are truly priceless and the information given is outstanding. How often in the world can you freely gain the advice of pros and the best out there? Yet, it happens here at AT. Even though there are few bafoons running amuck it doesn't ruin it for all. Thank you.


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## -bowfreak- (Oct 18, 2006)

rsw said:


> Since it seems Mr. Shortarrow is a superior archer to Eric, Mike, and a few others, I hope he will spend a lot of time addressing his experience and educating me regarding how to do it the one and only CORRECT WAY. Or perhaps he should consider who he is correcting and the resumes that they have created by doing it wrong. Just think how good they might have been if they had done it the one and only correct way. This type of comment is pure bunk and the reason so many super threads go down the tube here. Just think about what you are saying before you open your mouth so you don't hang it out there for ridicule.


I am assuming I missed something. I will assume that some of the children of AT came to play. :teeth:


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## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

-bowfreak- said:


> I am assuming I missed something. I will assume that some of the children of AT came to play. :teeth:


Always a hunter who comes and tells these guys they are doing a injustice and shouldnt be telling everyone here and spending there time explaining. Eric responded nicely but firmly and the rest of us gladly said go away. Im really happy everyone allowing these pros to give us there way of shooting. Im surprised there not more.
DB


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## ivor darcy (Feb 24, 2009)

I just recently started shooting with a BT release after using a trigger release and was told to just draw to anchor as usual, keep pulling through ( elbow would feel like it was going down and "around" toward my shoulder blade ) and the release would just go off. Never really put much thought into it and it all just seemed to happen naturally.

However, I say each to their own and there is no "wrong" way if it works for YOU.


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## Reverend (Nov 2, 2004)

Terrific thread. 
So let me see if I got this right. There are several ways to shoot with back tension:
1. Relax the index and middle finger while keeping tension with the back. (Chance, Nathan, Eric, etc.)
2. Hold the tension at full draw while consciously squeezing or engaging the back muscles. (Larry Wise model)
3. Keep pulling on release until shot breaks. (Carter Evolution)

I know this is a somewhat raw explanation, but the main point is that none of these styles are wrong. Each archer has to find which style works best for them.


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## Reverend (Nov 2, 2004)

Question:
Can someone explain with a little more detail what it means to stay aggressive on the shot? :confused3:
How do you stay agressive while relaxing the hand or arms?:noidea:


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## mikesmith66 (Aug 8, 2008)

Stay aggressive = keep your back muscles strong and don't relax the tension in that area...........and also keep your bow arm strong. If you let your bow arm give to the pressure of the bow, or allow your back tension to relax, you'll creep on the shot. Keep your form strong. When they are saying "relax" they mean they are relaxing their pointer and sometimes the middle fingers while aiming to allow the release to rotate to fire, WHILE keeping their back tight and bow arm straight. 



Reverend said:


> Question:
> Can someone explain with a little more detail what it means to stay aggressive on the shot? :confused3:
> How do you stay agressive while relaxing the hand or arms?:noidea:


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## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

Last january I read bernies idiot proof archery and that was the send off to my year of learning how to shoot a hinge, this thread came at the right time for me and I am glad it didn't happen to early because I need to suffer for a few months with this thread coming at the perfect time and it did.

Since this thread started I have:

1. Stopped feeling like I was cheating because I shot true back tension for over a 10 months and would not even think of relaxing fingers or putting extra pressure on my middle finger because so many guys said that was cheating and not back tension.

2. one month ago I began what I thought was cheating and began letting the release rotate in my hand by relaxing my index finger.

3. After reading egrigs response I did two things, I added pressure to my middle finger and some back tension and my release is as solid as it has ever been.

At the current time today I feel I am getting a surprise release that is better and more consistant than my back tension only ever was and hopefully in a month this will prove to be the best and most influential read of the year for me. Again it is nice to hear I am not cheating but using a method that is accepted by some good pro shooters out there.


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## FishAlaska (Nov 30, 2010)

mikesmith66 said:


> Stay aggressive = keep your back muscles strong and don't relax the tension in that area...........and also keep your bow arm strong. If you let your bow arm give to the pressure of the bow, or allow your back tension to relax, you'll creep on the shot. Keep your form strong. When they are saying "relax" they mean they are relaxing their pointer and sometimes the middle fingers while aiming to allow the release to rotate to fire, WHILE keeping their back tight and bow arm straight.


Good point...I like many others thought RELAX? If I relax the release will fly out of my hand and the riser will come back and hit me in the face. I think the term relax needs better definition in this process.

Sent from my SCH-I510 using Tapatalk


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## mikesmith66 (Aug 8, 2008)

I just realized I made a mistake in my last paragraph. ....I fixed it below... 

When they are saying "relax" they mean they are relaxing their pointer finger and sometimes applying pressure to the middle finger while aiming to allow the release to rotate to fire, WHILE keeping their back tight and bow arm straight. 




FishAlaska said:


> Good point...I like many others thought RELAX? If I relax the release will fly out of my hand and the riser will come back and hit me in the face. I think the term relax needs better definition in this process.
> 
> Sent from my SCH-I510 using Tapatalk


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## FishAlaska (Nov 30, 2010)

Padgett said:


> Last january I read bernies idiot proof archery and that was the send off to my year of learning how to shoot a hinge, this thread came at the right time for me and I am glad it didn't happen to early because I need to suffer for a few months with this thread coming at the perfect time and it did.
> 
> Since this thread started I have:
> 
> ...


Good post...your last sentence got me though. Acceptance of your method by the pros out there. Are you thinking your method needs approval? It should be what works for you not what is accepted by someone else right? Not real convinced a Pro or anyone else for that matter would say they dont accept your method either way. 


Sent from my SCH-I510 using Tapatalk


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

FishAlaska said:


> Good point...I like many others thought RELAX? If I relax the release will fly out of my hand and the riser will come back and hit me in the face. I think the term relax needs better definition in this process.
> 
> Sent from my SCH-I510 using Tapatalk


FishAlaska:

Keep your fingers CURLED in a hook.

Keep pulling with your elbow straight back
...the mental image is to pull your elbow back away from the bow riser
...keep the riser solid and in position, the SAME distance from your face (strong bow arm).

Then,
ALLOW the back of your hand to flatten....is what Eric Griggs says.

I say just focusing your pulling on the MIDDLE FINGER only, and 
forget about your index finger,
just let the index finger go along for the ride,
when you want your release to fire.

Let the index finger stop pulling...
do ALL your pulling from the middle finger, 
still curled into a hook,
keep the middle finger curled SOLID
....(do NOT relax the middle finger)
...(HANG ON with the middle finger)
and while PULLING strong with the middle finger in a SOLID HOOK,

allow the middle finger to ELBOW distance LENGTHEN,
by allowing the back of your hand to FLATTEN
by allowing the natural CUP shape of your palm, to FLATTEN.

RELAX the back of your hand, by allowing the back of your hand to flatten.


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## ohiorobp (Nov 20, 2011)

Is this thread a sticky yet? Cause its a must be if not.


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

Once people understand what is being aggressive, lets not forget that aggression doesn't stop until the arrow hits - it called, Follow through.


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## field14 (May 21, 2002)

The hardest part of this "aggression" is KEEPING THE BOW ARM, BOW HAND, BOTH shoulders, the release hand, forearm, upper arm ALL relaxed but still "maintaining and "increasing" the tension in the rhomboids.
Too often, I catch myself thinking "pull like crazy" and all I've really done is tightened up on some, and sometimes, even ALL of the above...and then wonder why the shot won't break!
The shot will NOT break "correctly" if any of the above are tensed up. RELAX and let it happen, and the shot breaks like it is intended to do....and nothing but "X". Hard part is shooting 60 shots like that!

ONE shot sixty times, executed perfectly, is far less taxing than 60 shots done 60 different ways, looking for that "feeling".

About follow-thru, Dean Pridgen, I think, says something like: "Follow-thru, the last thing to happen, but the first thing to go."


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## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

field14 said:


> The hardest part of this "aggression" is KEEPING THE BOW ARM, BOW HAND, BOTH shoulders, the release hand, forearm, upper arm ALL relaxed but still "maintaining and "increasing" the tension in the rhomboids.
> Too often, I catch myself thinking "pull like crazy" and all I've really done is tightened up on some, and sometimes, even ALL of the above...and then wonder why the shot won't break!
> The shot will NOT break "correctly" if any of the above are tensed up. RELAX and let it happen, and the shot breaks like it is intended to do....and nothing but "X". Hard part is shooting 60 shots like that!
> 
> ...




Dean Pridgen preachs follow through.

Heard this many times. Thanks for reminded me again Tom

About follow-thru, Dean Pridgen, I think, says something like: "Follow-thru, the last thing to happen, but the first thing to go."


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## field14 (May 21, 2002)

Thought that statement very appropriate, Dan'l, and knew you would get a kick out of it, ha. You and I know how solid Dean's BOW ARM IS, don't we?

Oh, and so much for the nice relaxed curved fingered bow-hand, too....You and I know how Dean's BOW HAND looks...but....he also is NOT too deep into the grip either!

field14 (Tom D.)


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## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

field14 said:


> Thought that statement very appropriate, Dan'l, and knew you would get a kick out of it, ha. You and I know how solid Dean's BOW ARM IS, don't we?
> 
> Oh, and so much for the nice relaxed curved fingered bow-hand, too....You and I know how Dean's BOW HAND looks...but....he also is NOT too deep into the grip either!
> 
> ...


I want to get inside his head and how he makes this game so simple. Dean laughs and says everyone over anylizes this game way to much. LOL He will be the first to tell he feels pressure.
DB


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## field14 (May 21, 2002)

Daniel Boone said:


> I want to get inside his head and how he makes this game so simple. Dean laughs and says everyone over anylizes this game way to much. LOL He will be the first to tell he feels pressure.
> DB


I'll not soon forget the $20 he took from me! We were talking about the indoor target and he said that he could shoot a "25" on the blue face at 20 yards with his eyes closed. I said, "BS, Dean." He said something like $10 says I can. It stupidly took him up on it. The rules were simple...He would come to full draw, anchor, acquire the target, close his eyes and NOT PUNCH, but finish up his normal shot. Rules were fair and proper.
So...what does he do? Shoots a friggin' "25", that's what he does! So, I bet him double or nothing...and yessir...he does this again! I'm out $20 and "in" for one of the most valuable lessons I ever received...concerns the solid bowarm, KNOWING your shot (muscle memory) and execution, even when "hindered" by not being able to see.
This is the basis for something I came up with for "tuning" your alignment even finer as far as foot positioning and DL goes...and, it WORKS, too! Even this old codger with a shakey site picture CAN and DOES shoot "25" with my eyes closed...not every time, but I can do it...if I pay attention and let the shot be executed without forcing it...tight muscles are forcing the shot, while relaxed ones are "letting it happen." 
I use this challenge to shoot "blind bale" for an entire "100-game" FOR SCORE and see how well I can do. The best I've ever done is 98 for score. I have a couple of students that have shot 100's; that is 4 "25's" in a row...with their eyes closed. One student had to go to a 5-spot target to keep from busting up his arrows once he had "mastered" his shot technique and alignment. Try this to break up those monotonous practice sessions and to add some humility to some of those "hot-dogs" that think they have things "figured out." It will give them a dose of humility...NO PUNCHING the second their eyes are closed...those punches don't count...gotta EXECUTE a normal shot. Let's see how many of them can do this? Initially, not many, if any. BUT...give 'em a few ends and a little time, and they WILL do it. The best I've ever seen is a person did it on his 2nd end. First end was a "23", then he nailed a "25".


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## Bobmuley (Jan 14, 2004)

field14 said:


> The hardest part of this "aggression" is KEEPING THE BOW ARM, BOW HAND, BOTH shoulders, the release hand, forearm, upper arm ALL relaxed but still "maintaining and "increasing" the tension in the rhomboids.
> Too often, I catch myself thinking "pull like crazy" and all I've really done is tightened up on some, and sometimes, even ALL of the above...and then wonder why the shot won't break!
> The shot will NOT break "correctly" if any of the above are tensed up. RELAX and let it happen, and the shot breaks like it is intended to do....and nothing but "X". Hard part is shooting 60 shots like that!
> 
> ...


My little internal mantra is aggression, active, focus. I use "aggression" to remind myself that I need to get on the spot quickly; it keeps me from thinking about much else that way and slightly speeds up the shot tempo. Aggression to me is more mental and I use the following for the physical aspect.

I use "active" to denote your maintaining and increasing tension...keeps me from getting "stuck" in the shot.


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## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

field14 said:


> I'll not soon forget the $20 he took from me! We were talking about the indoor target and he said that he could shoot a "25" on the blue face at 20 yards with his eyes closed. I said, "BS, Dean." He said something like $10 says I can. It stupidly took him up on it. The rules were simple...He would come to full draw, anchor, acquire the target, close his eyes and NOT PUNCH, but finish up his normal shot. Rules were fair and proper.
> So...what does he do? Shoots a friggin' "25", that's what he does! So, I bet him double or nothing...and yessir...he does this again! I'm out $20 and "in" for one of the most valuable lessons I ever received...concerns the solid bowarm, KNOWING your shot (muscle memory) and execution, even when "hindered" by not being able to see.
> This is the basis for something I came up with for "tuning" your alignment even finer as far as foot positioning and DL goes...and, it WORKS, too! Even this old codger with a shakey site picture CAN and DOES shoot "25" with my eyes closed...not every time, but I can do it...if I pay attention and let the shot be executed without forcing it...tight muscles are forcing the shot, while relaxed ones are "letting it happen."
> I use this challenge to shoot "blind bale" for an entire "100-game" FOR SCORE and see how well I can do. The best I've ever done is 98 for score. I have a couple of students that have shot 100's; that is 4 "25's" in a row...with their eyes closed. One student had to go to a 5-spot target to keep from busting up his arrows once he had "mastered" his shot technique and alignment. Try this to break up those monotonous practice sessions and to add some humility to some of those "hot-dogs" that think they have things "figured out." It will give them a dose of humility...NO PUNCHING the second their eyes are closed...those punches don't count...gotta EXECUTE a normal shot. Let's see how many of them can do this? Initially, not many, if any. BUT...give 'em a few ends and a little time, and they WILL do it. The best I've ever seen is a person did it on his 2nd end. First end was a "23", then he nailed a "25".


Seperates the truly great archers from the good ones.
DB


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## barkrichards (Feb 1, 2012)

Archery is an habit for me. Vortex Binos, Award Taker Relax, Steam Path post, OK-Archery DST 40, Eilte Z28 Bow, Jackson produces, CBE places, Goldtip arrows, B Stingers Stabilizers, Lancasters Archery, Smooth Tricks


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

field14 said:


> I'll not soon forget the $20 he took from me! We were talking about the indoor target and he said that he could shoot a "25" on the blue face at 20 yards with his eyes closed. I said, "BS, Dean." He said something like $10 says I can. It stupidly took him up on it. The rules were simple...He would come to full draw, anchor, acquire the target, close his eyes and NOT PUNCH, but finish up his normal shot. Rules were fair and proper.
> So...what does he do? Shoots a friggin' "25", that's what he does! So, I bet him double or nothing...and yessir...he does this again! I'm out $20 and "in" for one of the most valuable lessons I ever received...concerns the solid bowarm, KNOWING your shot (muscle memory) and execution, even when "hindered" by not being able to see.


Copied... Tom taken twice in same day. Nobody is going to believe this...


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## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

Fishalaska, I have wasted decades of my life doing what felt good to me and I am sick of it. I am finally getting better and I want to see how good I can be but I don't have reo or levi or anyone else showing up to my house and coaching me on a daily basis so this thread is the only thing I have and when a pro shooter chimes in I am listening because it is all I have.


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## FishAlaska (Nov 30, 2010)

nuts&bolts said:


> FishAlaska:
> 
> Keep your fingers CURLED in a hook.
> 
> ...


Awesome NB

Sent from my SCH-I510 using Tapatalk


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## FishAlaska (Nov 30, 2010)

Padgett said:


> Fishalaska, I have wasted decades of my life doing what felt good to me and I am sick of it. I am finally getting better and I want to see how good I can be but I don't have reo or levi or anyone else showing up to my house and coaching me on a daily basis so this thread is the only thing I have and when a pro shooter chimes in I am listening because it is all I have.


My bad...I thought you were referring to the need of your method being accepted as in approval by some higher level persona. There is no need. You keep at it and what works for you is the way to go. Many have had success with the most unorthodox methods you have ever seen but it works.

Sent from my SCH-I510 using Tapatalk


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## Scott.Barrett (Oct 26, 2008)

Put this into practice today and it works!!!!

I've been having a hard time getting the dot to calm down....once I start pulling, it would start moving all over the place!

First, I set my release, a Carter Only, really heavy. Then I went with the Eric/Chance/Braden method of just rotating it while keeping the pressure on with my back muscles. Success!!!!

No more bobbing pin, holding low or moving all over... I just tried to stay very still and just let that release rotate and the shots are more consistent than my thumb trigger!

Thanks guys!!!! This has really paid off!

SB


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## fletched (May 10, 2006)

I have shot many different ways over the years. I have done quite well with a scott mongoose with a spring trigger. I would hold with static back tension and slowly squeeze the trigger. This allowed be to remain very still since I wasn't expanding or rotating. I have used a combo of back tension and finger/thumb squeeze depending on the release I was using. This worked well when under pressure situations. I can shoot pure bt like larry wise teaches but I have hang ups when shooting competition sometimes. The biggest problem with bt is overloading the bow due to not getting the right starting pressure on you release. I don't shoot just one given method. I shoot what is working the best for me at the time.


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## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

Cant say thanks enough to all who have contributed to this thread without bashing the pros for being honest. Well except one member and he only posted once.

Would like to encourage more pros to post here on different views. Members here can show apprecietion and have here.

So many good pros here but dont need the bashing if they post. (I dont blame them) Member that called Starnes an idiot for what he posted should have been banned.(Not this Thread) Dont agree, just post what works for you, start your own thread. How simple is that.

DB


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## BowMadinTN (Jan 2, 2010)

You got alot of good feedback. Good thread! Thanks Eric and awesome explanation nuts&bolts. Good read.


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## STORMINMOOSE (Dec 20, 2009)

I haven't seen one post from a pro that says they are twisting x's.


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## chevman (Nov 3, 2006)

Padgett said:


> Fishalaska, I have wasted decades of my life doing what felt good to me and I am sick of it. I am finally getting better and I want to see how good I can be but I don't have reo or levi or anyone else showing up to my house and coaching me on a daily basis so this thread is the only thing I have and when a pro shooter chimes in I am listening because it is all I have.


I can relate to this. Sure would be nice to have a good coach.


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## up_close (Jan 30, 2005)

Good stuff.


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## STORMINMOOSE (Dec 20, 2009)

Im still waiting for one of these pros to come on and post that they are twisting x's , don't think this is to much to ask. I have a hard time believing this as I have seen many pros shoot and they were not twisting the release to fire it.


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## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

STORMINMOOSE said:


> Im still waiting for one of these pros to come on and post that they are twisting x's , don't think this is to much to ask. I have a hard time believing this as I have seen many pros shoot and they were not twisting the release to fire it.


I think ever pro/amatuer here explained exactly how they shoot it in a good detail. What is your point? What more do you want?
Gave several videos of them shooting. I plan to get more videos and maybe brief describtion from them right out of the pros mouth to help other here. 
DB


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## edgerat (Dec 14, 2011)

http://www.youtube.com/user/archerytv#p/u/36/aMZAwIJlLdo you watch Reo AND Braden rotate the release as they goes through their shot sequence.


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## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

edgerat said:


> http://www.youtube.com/user/archerytv#p/u/36/aMZAwIJlLdo you watch Reo AND Braden rotate the release as they goes through their shot sequence.


I dont see allot of wrist rotate in either shooter. I do see Reo got more travel in his release and often when you have allot of travel eventually the wrist has to bend. Using fingers only it see one is using less travel. Seems most pros here are saying there using fingers mostly to rotate the release. BT release has to rotate. What I do see is no movement other than release hand on the body.
Maybe I can talk Reo in to coming and giving his explanation.
DB


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## STORMINMOOSE (Dec 20, 2009)

Daniel Boone said:


> I think ever pro/amatuer here explained exactly how they shoot it in a good detail. What is your point? What more do you want?
> Gave several videos of them shooting. I plan to get more videos and maybe brief describtion from them right out of the pros mouth to help other here.
> DB


I guess my point would be is that twisting the release is not true back tension shooting, it is command shooting. I guess more than anything I am real confused.


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## edgerat (Dec 14, 2011)

STORMINMOOSE said:


> I guess my point would be is that twisting the release is not true back tension shooting, it is command shooting. I guess more than anything I am real confused.


Just because you cannot see the tension doesn't mean it isn't happening


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## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

STORMINMOOSE said:


> I guess my point would be is that twisting the release is not true back tension shooting, it is command shooting. I guess more than anything I am real confused.


The release must rotate to fire on any hinge release. Regardless how you want to do it. 

Fingers, wrist, making a grip. These guys gave really lengthy explanations. I have asked a few other pros to come as well. Hopefully there explanation will help you more. 
DB


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## STORMINMOOSE (Dec 20, 2009)

edgerat said:


> Just because you cannot see the tension doesn't mean it isn't happening


If there is independent hand rotation it is still command shooting because the brain is telling the hand when to rotate there is no suprise. No matter how much back tension you have applied.


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## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

STORMINMOOSE said:


> If there is independent hand rotation it is still command shooting because the brain is telling the hand when to rotate there is no suprise. No matter how much back tension you have applied.


What I think what confuses folks is there many ways to fire a BT release and many are giving what works for them. Kinda like form for shooting.
DB


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## STORMINMOOSE (Dec 20, 2009)

I agree DB there are many ways to fire a BT release, what is confusing is the fact that for years I have heard from pros coaches aand anyone else tell me that if you twist the relase WITH THE HAND and it is not a natural occurence from the back tightening that it was cheating or twisting an x. Some of the people mentioned have professed to be true back tension shooters. Not looking for an argument just insightful information as I have spent several years getting to a point where every release was a supprise and the release rotated naturally from back tension.


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## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

STORMINMOOSE said:


> I agree DB there are many ways to fire a BT release, what is confusing is the fact that for years I have heard from pros coaches aand anyone else tell me that if you twist the relase WITH THE HAND and it is not a natural occurence from the back tightening that it was cheating or twisting an x. Some of the people mentioned have professed to be true back tension shooters. Not looking for an argument just insightful information as I have spent several years getting to a point where every release was a supprise and the release rotated naturally from back tension.


Understand completely and thats why I wanted to get it right from the pros themselfs. If what your doing working and your shooting good dont change. You got to find what works for you. Im not changing at my age. I feel I got my shot process down and I cant shoot a BT release and dont plan to try again for no telling how many times I tried in the past didnt work for me..
DB


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## MrSinister (Jan 23, 2003)

Heck there DB you and those dang pro's have even got me watching some of those nose breaker releases now. As close as I have ever got to one is a nice thumb release. but I might have to try one of those now. We will see.


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## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

MrSinister said:


> Heck there DB you and those dang pro's have even got me watching some of those nose breaker releases now. As close as I have ever got to one is a nice thumb release. but I might have to try one of those now. We will see.



Nose breakers they are for sure. Scott Hex is the only I would consider trying because it wont go off on draw.
DB

Eric Griggs showing Scott Hex

http://s194.photobucket.com/albums/z289/okiebwhtr/?action=view&current=Picture053.mp4

Keep telling myself ole Trey here five and has been shooting a BT release from age three. I should be able to master it. LOL

http://s194.photobucket.com/albums/z289/okiebwhtr/?action=view&current=Picture050.mp4


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## won (Feb 3, 2012)

funny 
nose breakers ? If you draw any release towards your nose .... guess what .. your doing it wrong , and will get a broken nose at some point ...


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## MrSinister (Jan 23, 2003)

One I was looking at was the scott longhorn. Looks very similar.


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## rn3 (Jan 4, 2008)

STORMINMOOSE said:


> I agree DB there are many ways to fire a BT release, what is confusing is the fact that for years I have heard from pros coaches aand anyone else tell me that if you twist the relase WITH THE HAND and it is not a natural occurence from the back tightening that it was cheating or twisting an x. Some of the people mentioned have professed to be true back tension shooters. Not looking for an argument just insightful information as I have spent several years getting to a point where every release was a supprise and the release rotated naturally from back tension.


You can squeeze the release and still be a surprise release. Back tension has nothing to do with the release, in today's world people are confusing back tension and release. To shoot properly one must use back tension regardless of how they trigger the release.


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## ohiorobp (Nov 20, 2011)

Daniel Boone said:


> Nose breakers they are for sure. Scott Hex is the only I would consider trying because it wont go off on draw.
> DB
> 
> Eric Griggs showing Scott Hex
> ...


The Loesh true bt now sold by hamskea has a safety that wont let it fire on draw. I just got one and wow is it amazing. Still getting used to it. I was scared as a little kid on my first draw. But, it works and it works VERY WELL. They cost a bit though. But very much worth it. 

http://www.hamskeaarchery.com/shop-hamskea/products.php?id=1


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## -bowfreak- (Oct 18, 2006)

Levi rotates the release with his hand. You can watch him on his show doing it. He actually does a clip, it is probably on NLA, that aired on his show where he discusses the difference between the way he shoots and the way Sam does. I don't want to mischaracterize his release activation but he doesn't just push and pull. All I can say when I watch him is that he no doubt is a freak as I don't have the grey matter to let me shoot a release like he does. 

Sam is a prototypical ripper. She is trying to tear the bow apart which leads to an explosive follow through. I like her style for sure and would be tickled to have either of the Morgan's ability. I would love to see Leviticus post on this thread. I am more of a ripper myself at heart but have been playing with all different methods of activating my release for the last month or so.


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## spicman (Dec 1, 2003)

great info. thanks


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## Stuka1166 (Oct 19, 2006)

Hello folks...

Been following this thread since it's beginning...I have WRESTLED with a hinge release (TRUBALL HT 4) for the past 2 yrs...I have worked with an NFAA coach, taken the Terry Wunderle classes and still STRUGGLING. Perhaps my problem is listening to "cookie cutter" advice...Because in my case the coaches teach you THEIR way. I have been accused of ripping the release, and twisting my wrist...Doing anything to make the shot happen, which in turn has caused some TP.

So...My question...While the bow is drawn, you have tension in the back...Correct ??

When pulling through the shot...Are you allowing the release to rotate ("Relaxed" index and rotating about the middle) DURING the pull ??

OR as I have seen in some vids...Using pressure on your pinky to activate the "click" (On a 4 finger release) to actually make the shot happen ??

Also...If something works for you...Textbook procedure or not...Do you change your instinct to go to the subjective "proper" technique ??

Thanks !!!


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## aread (Dec 25, 2009)

STORMINMOOSE said:


> I agree DB there are many ways to fire a BT release, what is confusing is the fact that for years I have heard from pros coaches aand anyone else tell me that if you twist the relase WITH THE HAND and it is not a natural occurence from the back tightening that it was cheating or twisting an x. Some of the people mentioned have professed to be true back tension shooters. Not looking for an argument just insightful information as I have spent several years getting to a point where every release was a supprise and the release rotated naturally from back tension.


As I understand it, command shooting doesn't have anything to do with how the release is manipulated. It depends on where the mind is focused. If you are totally focused on the X with your conscious mind, it is not command shooting. If at some point during the shot, you think "NOW", that is command shooting. 

You can command shoot with or without wrist or finger movement. Unfortunately I know this from personal experience.

Allen


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## TNMAN (Oct 6, 2009)

Thanks DB, Eric & Mike, and to all who contributed. Great stuff!


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

Stuka1166 said:


> Hello folks...
> 
> Been following this thread since it's beginning...I have WRESTLED with a hinge release (TRUBALL HT 4) for the past 2 yrs...I have worked with an NFAA coach, taken the Terry Wunderle classes and still STRUGGLING. Perhaps my problem is listening to "cookie cutter" advice...Because in my case the coaches teach you THEIR way. I have been accused of ripping the release, and twisting my wrist...Doing anything to make the shot happen, which in turn has caused some TP.
> 
> ...


Hello Stuka1166:

Here is my summary of what Eric Griggs is trying to say.

1) set the release as slow as you can...much slower...in order to require that the hinge release MUST ROTATE a LOT
....you can see in the video clip, of Braden Gellenthein, he has his 4 finger release hand set so slow, you can EASILY see that the release hand must rotate a LOT, in order to fire

2) you have pulling TENSION, while pulling the bowstring back to full draw
....so, when you just get to full draw, keep up the PULLING TENSION and do not allow the PULLING TENSION to reduce
....I have my bow set at 60 lbs and have the holding weight at the wall = 20 lbs
...and when I get to the wall, i KEEP the pulling tension at 22-23 lbs the ENTIRE TIME I am at full draw
...never relax the PULLING TENSION while settling in, while lining up your body parts

3) so, while keeping MY pulling tension at 22-23 lbs, and DECIDING to take the shot
....I start shifting my muscles around...start relaxing some muscles...start working OTHER muscles harder
....while KEEPING the pulling tension at 22-23 lbs
....I SHIFT the muscle load MORE to the middle/upper back
....I MENTALLY SAY....allow my elbow to stretch AWAY from my knuckles around the hinge release...ERIC GRIGGS calls this FLATTENING the back of the hand

....I say focus on the MIDDLE FINGER only for the PULLING TENSION of 22-23 lbs and allow the index finger to just go along for the ride...let the index finger go to JELLO

so,
for all the technical folks,
the hinge release handle MUST rotate.....PERIOD.

The hinge release handle will NOT FIRE, if the handle does not rotate.

In the video clip, Braden Gellenthein has his hinge release handle set SOOOO COLD, the handle really truly PLAINLY OBVIOUSLY must rotate a HUGE AMOUNT, before his release will fire.

So,
what we see is that the index finger has turned to JELLO.

If the index finger on Braden's release hand does NOT turn to JELLO,
then,
the release handle will NOT fire,
cuz the INDEX FINGER will PREVENT the handle from going through ENOUGH rotation MOVEMENT, to fire.

Sooo,
if YOU FOLKS try to copy Braden's method,
and set your FOUR FINGER RELEASE HANDLE super duper slow
....(NOTE: the 4 finger handle is SUPER LONG, so when a FOUR FINGER handle is set super slow, the END of the 4 finger handle must MOVE A LOT in order to fire).

you MUST allow your index finger to go to JELLO
you MUST allow the index finger to FLOAT above the handle
you MUST allow the index finger to MOVE FORWARDS a long long way, in order to get the 4 finger HINGE to fire
you MUST allow the pinky finger to MOVE BACKWARDS a long long long long way, in order to get a *SUPER COLD* 4 finger HINGE to fire.


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## Bobmuley (Jan 14, 2004)

STORMINMOOSE said:


> If there is independent hand rotation* it is still command shooting *because the brain is telling the hand when to rotate *there is no suprise*. No matter how much back tension you have applied.


First off, so what. 

Secondly, what credentials do you have to be able to define "back tension"?

Your conscious mind initiates "back tension" and a well-trained archer will continue that motion subconsciously while the conscious mind gets lost aiming. The traditional back tension archer keeps the fluidity of the shot and it becomes a subconscious act and when it fires it can be a surprise, but is it really, you know its coming, just not the precise time of it. How about we call it unanticipated instead.

Now you take some one that has taught themselves to maintain back tension and maybe even build up a little of it through the shot...but this archer also developes a subconscious manipulation of the release. As that act becomes unconscious, it differs none from the traditional because the act is unconscious and leads to an unanticipated release.


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## Bois-le-Duc (Jan 23, 2007)

Another awesome visual explanation in laymans terms.


nuts&bolts said:


> Hello Stuka1166:
> 
> Here is my summary of what Eric Griggs is trying to say.
> 
> ...


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## hatchettjack (Jan 16, 2012)

Yall are too funny! Lol just grip it and rip it

Sent from my MB855 using Tapatalk


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

nuts&bolts said:


> Hello Stuka1166:
> 
> Here is my summary of what Eric Griggs is trying to say.
> 
> ...




Here is a FREEZE FRAME analysis,
of Braden's technique.

He has his FOUR FINGER hinge release set CRAZY COLD.

By my analysis, he has to rotate his 4 FINGER release 16 degrees, in order to make the 4 finger handle fire.

When your hinge handle is super long, like a 4 finger handle,
if you FOCUS on the pinky end of the handle,
Braden's handle must MOVE *3/4 of an inch*, to fire.


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## wildturkeync (Jan 7, 2010)

why is eveyone soooo worried about what the pros do, why not do what works for you, i believe there are exceptions to every rule in archery. i mean if it feels right to you and you are hitting your target, why change it to mimic some pro shooter, im sure imm get hammered for this but its like no one can think for them selves anymore. and as far as bing new to BT releases, i picked up a tru ball ht for the first time ever yesterday, shot it at about 10ft for about 15 of 20 shoots, stepped back to 20 yrds and smoked 4 x's in the first 4 arrows, took it to our 3d practice today, shot it a few times at the practice bags and put it away to shoot my normal release on the 3d animals, got to the bonus target and punched the trigger (carter plain 1) and shot a 8. pulled out the tru ball ht and smoked the 14 ring to make up for it. so there are excetions to it taking some people 2 years to get used to it, i have seamed to pick it up in 2 days, i feel with the BT release all i pay attention to is the sight and the target and dont even think about the release or a trigger, just aim aim aim aim aim and bam it goes off and i love it, and it didnt take 2 years of shoot at a blank bail and with no sights......just my 2 cents


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## RCL (Apr 23, 2004)

hatchettjack said:


> Yall are too funny! Lol just grip it and rip it


That works real good with a golf ball and you're trying to hit a 40 or 50 yard wide fairway.......









Most archers are trying to do a little better than that......:wink:


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## CutTheLoop (Dec 26, 2007)

wolf44 said:


> don't you already know that rotating the release is cheating....the release doesn't have to rotate to go off, it just magically defy's the laws of physics and engineering and goes off on its own


zactly :thumbs_up


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## -bowfreak- (Oct 18, 2006)

wildturkeync said:


> why is eveyone soooo worried about what the pros do, why not do what works for you, i believe there are exceptions to every rule in archery. i mean if it feels right to you and you are hitting your target, why change it to mimic some pro shooter, im sure imm get hammered for this but its like no one can think for them selves anymore. and as far as bing new to BT releases, i picked up a tru ball ht for the first time ever yesterday, shot it at about 10ft for about 15 of 20 shoots, stepped back to 20 yrds and smoked 4 x's in the first 4 arrows, took it to our 3d practice today, shot it a few times at the practice bags and put it away to shoot my normal release on the 3d animals, got to the bonus target and punched the trigger (carter plain 1) and shot a 8. pulled out the tru ball ht and smoked the 14 ring to make up for it. so there are excetions to it taking some people 2 years to get used to it, i have seamed to pick it up in 2 days, i feel with the BT release all i pay attention to is the sight and the target and dont even think about the release or a trigger, just aim aim aim aim aim and bam it goes off and i love it, and it didnt take 2 years of shoot at a blank bail and with no sights......just my 2 cents


This thread is obviously not for you.

You have mastered a hinge in 2 days and have the game whipped.

For the rest of us, every little bit helps.


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## wildturkeync (Jan 7, 2010)

na i dont have it mastered, but it just gets eveything out of my mind but aiming, and i have tried it both ways (rotating wrist and pulling through) and to me it is alot more comfortable to hold my anchor point and rotate my wrist or just aply pressure to the release with my ring finger (or pinky if you have a 4 finger release) it just wasnt as big of a leaning curve as i have read it was


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## chevman (Nov 3, 2006)

wildturkeync said:


> why is eveyone soooo worried about what the pros do, why not do what works for you, i believe there are exceptions to every rule in archery. i mean if it feels right to you and you are hitting your target, why change it to mimic some pro shooter, im sure imm get hammered for this but its like no one can think for them selves anymore. and as far as bing new to BT releases, i picked up a tru ball ht for the first time ever yesterday, shot it at about 10ft for about 15 of 20 shoots, stepped back to 20 yrds and smoked 4 x's in the first 4 arrows, took it to our 3d practice today, shot it a few times at the practice bags and put it away to shoot my normal release on the 3d animals, got to the bonus target and punched the trigger (carter plain 1) and shot a 8. pulled out the tru ball ht and smoked the 14 ring to make up for it. so there are excetions to it taking some people 2 years to get used to it, i have seamed to pick it up in 2 days, i feel with the BT release all i pay attention to is the sight and the target and dont even think about the release or a trigger, just aim aim aim aim aim and bam it goes off and i love it, and it didnt take 2 years of shoot at a blank bail and with no sights......just my 2 cents


 Well... i would pay to see you toe the line with any of the well experienced shooters and see how you would fare. There is no doubt they would hand you your back-side in less than half a game. We all get a perrcentage of our shots in the middle...what is wroung with trying to find out how to get all of our shots there...like they can. Dont you think they know something we don't? Then...they are good enough to come on here and tell us (free) what works for them. Who knows might be just the tip we need to get to the top of our game. Win Win situation!


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## wildturkeync (Jan 7, 2010)

lol your funny, why the attitude man, i never said i was as good as them or wanted to shoot against them, im just saying do what feels good and works for you, iv seen people change what was working fine just because a pro does it that way, its crazy. find what is comforable to you and spent time working at it instead of tryign to copy a pro and think that will make you shoot better faster. i know tips will help out but people go crazy over coping someone . i mean shure if what your doing aint working try something new (a tip) i do what feels right to me and work at it and i get better day by day, and who know you may see me on the line with them one day.......


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## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

wildturkeync said:


> lol your funny, why the attitude man, i never said i was as good as them or wanted to shoot against them, im just saying do what feels good and works for you, iv seen people change what was working fine just because a pro does it that way, its crazy. find what is comforable to you and spent time working at it instead of tryign to copy a pro and think that will make you shoot better faster. i know tips will help out but people go crazy over coping someone . i mean shure if what your doing aint working try something new (a tip) i do what feels right to me and work at it and i get better day by day, and who know you may see me on the line with them one day.......


No one trying to copy anyone. Pros came here and gave you and others members good advice and explained how they shot backtension. I understand what your saying but your attitude toward pros trying to help is exactly why they dont post here more often. If what your doing working that good for you. But many come here seeking knowledge from these guys exsperiance. Pros shoot good and many have different ways and there just trying to help. 

This is uncalled for! Your Qoute!
why is eveyone soooo worried about what the pros do 

Garantee if you spent anytime with Griggs or any of these pros you would be shooting better. Why? Because these guys know how to teach and what works. 
DB


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## chevman (Nov 3, 2006)

wildturkeync said:


> lol your funny, why the attitude man, i never said i was as good as them or wanted to shoot against them, im just saying do what feels good and works for you, iv seen people change what was working fine just because a pro does it that way, its crazy. find what is comforable to you and spent time working at it instead of tryign to copy a pro and think that will make you shoot better faster. i know tips will help out but people go crazy over coping someone . i mean shure if what your doing aint working try something new (a tip) i do what feels right to me and work at it and i get better day by day, and who know you may see me on the line with them one day.......


OOHHH....my bad..i see where you are coming from now and i agree with you..if it isnt broke...My style is still broken. Hope you do make it to the line with them.


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## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

I got target panic so bad indoors for the last two years. Time I try to atleast give BT another try if for no other reason than training. I dont get it in 3d.

Have not shot a 300 round in two years. Trying to stay positive, but it getting so frustrating. Good friend miles Blair who won are indoor today said he understood and BT release got the panic gone. He one of the better shooters in are state.

I got to find a solution. 
DB


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## wildturkeync (Jan 7, 2010)

chevman said:


> Hope you do make it to the line with them.


i highly doubt that lol but i would be cool. i do good to hang at my local league, but im loving this BT release thing and i see why eveyone wants to get into it


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## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

wildturkeync said:


> i highly doubt that lol but i would be cool. i do good to hang at my local league, but im loving this BT release thing and i see why eveyone wants to get into it


Try to appreceite what these pros are trying to do here. Help other members and most thank them. Not one pro said to try and copy anything there doing.
DB


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## chevman (Nov 3, 2006)

ear


Daniel Boone said:


> I got target panic so bad indoors for the last two years. Time I try to atleast give BT another try if for no other reason than training. I dont get it in 3d.
> 
> Have not shot a 300 round in two years. Trying to stay positive, but it getting so frustrating. Good friend miles Blair who won are indoor today said he understood and BT release got the panic gone. He one of the better shooters in are state.
> 
> ...


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## won (Feb 3, 2012)

nuts&bolts said:


> Here is a FREEZE FRAME analysis,
> of Braden\'s technique.
> 
> He has his FOUR FINGER hinge release set CRAZY COLD.
> ...


Top image is missing .
by chance do you have images that show the release elbow as well as hand ? 
Is the hand rotating separately from the arm ? 
Is this thread suggesting that rotating the wrist is a viable release ? or is the tension in the back along with relaxed hands causing the wrist to rotate and the trigger to fire ?

Out of curiosity I gave the \"wrist flip \" a go - It is more of a command than a surprise to me ?

Many ways to skin that cat .


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## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

won said:


> Top image is missing .
> by chance do you have images that show the release elbow as well as hand ?
> Is the hand rotating separately from the arm ?
> Is this thread suggesting that rotating the wrist is a viable release ? or is the tension in the back along with relaxed hands causing the wrist to rotate and the trigger to fire ?
> ...


Braden was coached By Wunderdale and he gets on target and is very aggressive. THat awesome stuff right there! Thanks
DB


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## hossa1881 (Apr 1, 2010)

Just wanted to say thanks again for this thread guys, it really helped me today at an indoor asa shoot. I might have even won it. First comp with using a non trigger release and I couldnt be happier. Thanks for the tips!!!


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## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

hossa1881 said:


> Just wanted to say thanks again for this thread guys, it really helped me today at an indoor asa shoot. I might have even won it. First comp with using a non trigger release and I couldnt be happier. Thanks for the tips!!!


Congrats, I think many have benefitted from this thread. Even myself Im considering diffiantly looking into BT again. Hoping more pros chime in here.
DB


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## field14 (May 21, 2002)

wildturkeync said:


> na i dont have it mastered, but it just gets eveything out of my mind but aiming, and i have tried it both ways (rotating wrist and pulling through) and to me it is alot more comfortable to hold my anchor point and rotate my wrist or just aply pressure to the release with my ring finger (or pinky if you have a 4 finger release) it just wasnt as big of a leaning curve as i have read it was


As the old archery adage goes, my friend, "anything new works great...ONCE"....let's see how this mastery goes on the LONG TERM. Once the newness wears off and you are trying to concentrate more on "scores" rather than one shot at a time, things will turn quickly.

field14 (Tom D.)


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## wildturkeync (Jan 7, 2010)

field14 said:


> As the old archery adage goes, my friend, "anything new works great...ONCE"....let's see how this mastery goes on the LONG TERM. Once the newness wears off and you are trying to concentrate more on "scores" rather than one shot at a time, things will turn quickly.
> 
> field14 (Tom D.)


lol well thanks for the confidence. and next time i see you ill be sure to kick your feet from under you too.....jus sayin


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## rsw (May 22, 2002)

I think Tom might have better said - "might turn quickly", but he is correct. New things often work well for awhile until you get used to it and then concentration can slip if you aren't careful.

One point that has been missed here also is that nearly ALL OF WE OLDTIMERS shot hinges by rotating the release and not using the true BT method to activate our releases. When you consider that the best of the best in the 70s and 80s were shooting true antiques and shooting virtually the same scores shot today, both indoors and field, only an utter fool would think that rotating your release is less than as effective as today's version of BT. The true advantage of BT is simply maintaining control of the shot and aiming the best you can. There is absolutely no loss of accuracy or score by rotating the release if you maintain solid BT and aim!!! I can guarantee that if Terry or Dean or Mike and several other shooters from the day had today's equipment in their prime, there would have been flood of 560 field scores at the nationals each year, mostly shot by rotating their releases.

There is one constant only and that is an archer must use back muscles to draw and hold the bow maintaining COMPLETE RELAXATION in the arms, shoulders, wrists, and fingers, at the appropriate draw length, and maintain SOLID BACK TENSION throughout the shot sequence while focusing absolutely on aiming.


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## BuckeyeRed (Sep 7, 2006)

field14 said:


> As the old archery adage goes, my friend, "anything new works great...ONCE"....let's see how this mastery goes on the LONG TERM. Once the newness wears off and you are trying to concentrate more on "scores" rather than one shot at a time, things will turn quickly.
> 
> field14 (Tom D.)


 This is so true. A couple buddies that I shoot with all agree, that if you want to shoot great for a week switch releases! Ha!


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

won said:


> Top image is missing .
> by chance do you have images that show the release elbow as well as hand ?
> Is the hand rotating separately from the arm ?
> Is this thread suggesting that rotating the wrist is a viable release ? or is the tension in the back along with relaxed hands causing the wrist to rotate and the trigger to fire ?
> ...


Here you go.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

Next.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

3rd freeze frame.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

4th freeze frame.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

5th freeze frame.
Arrow is GONE.
Handle rotates about 16 degrees.

From start to finish, the pinky portion of the release moved roughly 3/4-inches.

Freeze frame analysis shows that Braden has his forearm dead relaxed.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

6th freeze frame.
Aggressive followthrough.
Evidence of strong pulling force while at full draw.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

won said:


> Top image is missing .
> by chance do you have images that show the release elbow as well as hand ?
> Is the hand rotating separately from the arm ?
> Is this thread suggesting that rotating the wrist is a viable release ? or is the tension in the back along with relaxed hands causing the wrist to rotate and the trigger to fire ?
> ...


The rotation is COMPLETELY in the fingers.

Forearm is steady.
Wrist is steady...no movement...same position.

INDEX finger must float...have ZERO tension...index finger MUST float forwards.
INDEX finger portion of the handle MUST rotate towards the target.

Hinge release is set SUPER COLD...meaning, the handle MUST rotate 16 degrees, in order to fire.

The pinky portion (TOP of handle) MUST rotate 16 degrees, from the first photo (starting position).
Pinky portion (TOP of handle) MUST move 3/4-inch from the first photo, in order for the release to FIRE.

The pivot is somewhere between the index and middle fingers...it IS a hinge...see-saw.

Soooo,
the index finger MUST relax, MUST be jello and ALLOW the index finger part of the handle to swing FORWARDS.

Sooo,
the pinky finger / pinky finger section of the handle MUST move a long ways, MUST move 3 QUARTERS of an inch.

Braden G maintains tension...PULLING force throughout the entire shot sequence.
Braden has the wrist straight, in line with his forearm bones (radius and ulna) and relaxed and basically, the wrist is motionless.


Just like driving a manual transmission car.
You HAVE to put the clutch down to the floor steady and slow.

When you work the clutch say 100,000 times,
you do not think about how hard or how fast or what part of your left shoe you use, to push the clutch down slow and steady.
You just do it.


So,
Braden G has his 4 finger hinge release set SUPER cold, must move the pinky portion 3/4-inches.


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## FishAlaska (Nov 30, 2010)

Analyzing another shooters method should be the topic. This horse has been beat to death and some. Shoot what works! Who was the last shooter ahhh yes it was Braden. Does Braden shoot the exact method of his competitors....I doubt it. Maybe some of the basic fundamentals but his sequence is surely different for what works. The fundamental here is the release must rotate to fire. How you do that is your choice. It is a personal feel that is repeatable.

Sent from my SCH-I510 using Tapatalk


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## won (Feb 3, 2012)

nuts&bolts said:


> Here is a FREEZE FRAME analysis,
> of Braden\\\'s technique.
> 
> He has his FOUR FINGER hinge release set CRAZY COLD.
> ...


I am asking / discussing for the sake of conversation .... ....... 

Are you saying his hand / wrist is rotating like a \\\" turn key \\\" counter clockwise in a twisting motion ? - If this were true after the explosion the wrist would keep rotating C-clock wise. This shooting from a \\\"wrist flip \\\" is likened towards command shooting as opposed to a\\\" surprise \\\" release - Tim Gillingham comes to mind -
This is why I ask if you had shots of his elbow as well , a have a feeling the rotation is coming from the back side not at the wrist --
From looking at the pics , I see the first few frames as \\\" settling in the shot \\\" -( This is the turnkey action ) then the see saw action - on a vertical plane happens -( this is the actual release mechanism ) very quickly - with a ton of tension - that said ....
It is very difficult to shoot a cold release with out lots of power consistently using a surprise technique ( especially at game time ) , and would be easier to command shoot with a cold release.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

won said:


> I am asking / discussing for the sake of conversation .... .......
> 
> Are you saying his hand / wrist is rotating like a \\\" turn key \\\" counter clockwise in a twisting motion ? - If this were true after the explosion the wrist would keep rotating C-clock wise. This shooting from a \\\"wrist flip \\\" is likened towards command shooting as opposed to a\\\" surprise \\\" release - Tim Gillingham comes to mind -
> This is why I ask if you had shots of his elbow as well , a have a feeling the rotation is coming from the back side not at the wrist --
> ...




COMPLETELY in the fingers.

WRIST is dead solid....straight and relaxed the entire time.
Forearm bones do not move.

INDEX finger must move forwards.
MIDDLE finger is the hinge point...hardly any movement forward or backwards.
The middle finger is basically at the center point of the see-saw.

Pinky finger is at the top of the handle.
Pinky finger must move with the handle..it moves BACKWARDS away from the target, about 3/4-inches.

Braden is applying pressure with the middle and ring and pinky fingers.
INDEX finger is allowed to float forwards and go along for the ride.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

START....

and 

FINISH...photo.

No wrist rotation.
No dropping the elbow.
No rotating of the forearm bones.

Elbow is at the same height above the ground.

PINKY finger squeeze tighter.
PINKY finger moves away from the target.
PINKY portion of the handle moves back.

INDEX finger floats forwards.
INDEX finger part of the handle moves forward.

Notice the pinky finger STARTS forward of the ear.
Notice the pinky finger ENDS at the BACKSIDE of the ear.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

Question/comment from "*won*" (Post #318)

I am asking / discussing for the sake of conversation .... ....... 

Are you saying his hand / wrist is rotating like a \\\" turn key \\\" counter clockwise in a twisting motion ? - If this were true after the explosion the wrist would keep rotating C-clock wise. This shooting from a \\\"wrist flip \\\" is likened towards command shooting as opposed to a\\\" surprise \\\" release - Tim Gillingham comes to mind -
This is why I ask if you had shots of his elbow as well , a have a feeling the rotation is coming from the back side not at the wrist --
From looking at the pics , I see the first few frames as \\\" settling in the shot \\\" -( This is the turnkey action ) then the see saw action - on a vertical plane happens -( this is the actual release mechanism ) very quickly - with a ton of tension - that said ....
It is very difficult to shoot a cold release with out lots of power consistently using a surprise technique ( especially at game time ) , and would be easier to command shoot with a cold release. 


Here is the same photo,
BEFORE and AFTER with lines.

No elbow.
No wrist.

It is as simple as just work the fingers
and let the handle rotate.


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## won (Feb 3, 2012)

so it is a see saw over the middle finger .... and if you go to the next photo , you will notice that the elbow is pushing away from the bow , a lot , the follow thru of the hand is in an upward motion.
I have been playing with the \'relaxed tension see saw \" quiet a bit , I have found it very easy to creep if you work only in \" the hand \" You must make a concise effort in a pull , a hard pull , this will be telegraphed from the back mussels into the end of the elbow , the proof is in the follow thru . 
If you are only mataining a bit pressure as you said a constant 22lbs on a 20lb wall , your follow thru will bring you to \"touching \" your elbow , and lack that distinctive \"snap\" 
Both methods are in fact using BT , both methods can be very successful . I personally am getting more consistent shots with \" pulling thru and see sawing \" For me if I just sit on that constant 22lbs I will get a creeper when I fatigue , still a 10 hopefully but not an X.
I also was just playing with a HT set 3/4 into cold , which is insane to get to fire , almost 40 degrees !!! It had to be forced fired ! So all the cold will take 45 degrees before it rolls over ??
16 degrees is what i am guessing is around where the average archer is shooting , thats about 1/3 or 3 clicks in on the HT , where I would guess most upper level archers are 1/4 or 2 clicks or less , dropping that 16 degrees to 12 degrees or less. 

So going from 12 degrees to 16 degrees colder , is going to require a bit more pull out ..

again not trying to say right or wrong , change any ones ways here , just kinda nice to pick it apart out loud sometime , to bring up your own game


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## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

Just wanted to say congrats to Eric Griggs on his 7th place finish at Florida ASA just missing the shoot off.

Eric Griggs shoot BT well and I want to thank him for coming here and helping members.
DB


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## field14 (May 21, 2002)

won said:


> I am asking / discussing for the sake of conversation .... .......
> 
> Are you saying his hand / wrist is rotating like a \\\" turn key \\\" counter clockwise in a twisting motion ? - If this were true after the explosion the wrist would keep rotating C-clock wise. This shooting from a \\\"wrist flip \\\" is likened towards command shooting as opposed to a\\\" surprise \\\" release - Tim Gillingham comes to mind -
> This is why I ask if you had shots of his elbow as well , a have a feeling the rotation is coming from the back side not at the wrist --
> ...


Strongly disagree with what is in red above...You 'might' be able to command shoot with a cold release...but NOT ACCURATELY nor CONSISTENTLY! You'd shoot more 4's on the NFAA and 8's or worse on the Vegas...and 3's on field and hunter if you tried to manhandle a cold release by command!

I would surmise you have never shot a "Cold Setting" on a BT or any other release???? Cuz if you have, you wouldn't be saying it is easier to command shoot one effectively.

field14 (Tom D.)


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## rsw (May 22, 2002)

I doubt that Braden is allowing his index finger to move forward as that fiinger likely is really the pivot point. I suspect the middle and ring fingers simply rotate the release around the index finger, at least that is how I prefer to rotate the hinge. Most shooters seem to draw the bow entirely with the index finger and then maintain back tension against that finger rather than relax it which can have a tendency to induce creep; however, it is possible to use the middle finger as the rotation point.


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## won (Feb 3, 2012)

field14 said:


> Strongly disagree with what is in red above...You \'might\' be able to command shoot with a cold release...but NOT ACCURATELY nor CONSISTENTLY! You\'d shoot more 4\'s on the NFAA and 8\'s or worse on the Vegas...and 3\'s on field and hunter if you tried to manhandle a cold release by command!
> 
> I would surmise you have never shot a \"Cold Setting\" on a BT or any other release???? Cuz if you have, you wouldn\'t be saying it is easier to command shoot one effectively.
> 
> field14 (Tom D.)


we are on the same page ! effective is not written --
what i was trying to get at it is easier to \" command - force \" a cold release - was by no means saying its more accurate or effective at all ! 
From the sound of it you know exactly how hard it is to surprise fire a cold hinge , it takes forrrrrrever - 
yet it is easier to \" cheat \" command \" twist \" a cold release - did not say more effictive - especially for myself !! however for a command shooter ???

And I have shot just bout every style of release every which that cut the arrow loose


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## ru4auto (Apr 19, 2010)

I have read 11 pages of post, The fact is, that there are many ways to fire a release and many differant releases to fire. knowing this, if the top guys in our sport are saying that they fire thier release this way who are we to argue with them and thier results.

I believe that they pulling primarily with thier index finger settling in and slowly releaseing pressure off their inndex finger shifting it to there middle and ring finger while there thumb is on the release trigger, rotating the release counter clockwise into thier thumb releasing the string.

I believe the point of using back tension is to of course maintain form, but more importanlly for the release to go off with out you expecting it (not anticipating the shot) if this is the end result who cares how they release thier bow.


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## bmac (Jul 22, 2002)

The right method to shoot a release is whichever one allows you to consistently shoot where you are aiming. All that matters is results and it does not matter how you get there. 

There are too many "experts" on this forum that pick apart successful archers because they are not shooting the way they are "supposed" to be shooting. Get over it people. If shooting styles of successful pros work for you, use them. If they don't help you than try something else. We are all different and there is no one size fits all. You have to find what works for you but there is zero benefit in picking apart someone that is very clearly successful at what they do.


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## won (Feb 3, 2012)

rsw said:


> I doubt that Braden is allowing his index finger to move forward as that fiinger likely is really the pivot point. I suspect the middle and ring fingers simply rotate the release around the index finger, at least that is how I prefer to rotate the hinge. Most shooters seem to draw the bow entirely with the index finger and then maintain back tension against that finger rather than relax it which can have a tendency to induce creep; however, it is possible to use the middle finger as the rotation point.


the rotation \\\"\\\"\\\" is/ should be normally most people\\\"\\\" \\\" on the middle finger not the index finger , this is why the release will not fire when you draw with your index finger. 
Again saying better or worse , the mechanics of the release rotating on the index finger would require the release to rotate forward for the hinge to break , this seems like it would be a reduction on weight on the wall ?????
pretty much any time you see an archer let up on the thumb peg , the rotatation is coming off the middle finger ..
I tought a guy who afraid to losen his grip on the hinge , to slowly touch and cross his thumb and pinky at full draw , it forces the rotation and relaxation in the hand - pretty cool trick to show some one the mechanics 

I am now actually curious of your method ....


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## field14 (May 21, 2002)

won said:


> the rotation \"\"\" is/ should be normally most people\"\" \" on the middle finger not the index finger , this is why the release will not fire when you draw with your index finger.
> Again saying better or worse , the mechanics of the release rotating on the index finger would require the release to rotate forward for the hinge to break , this seems like it would be a reduction on weight on the wall ?????


Yes, IF you are only "pulling" with your release hand...which you are NOT supposed to be doing! The "action" should be coming from the contraction of the rhomboids and the RELAXATION/extension of the release hand...and NOT the tightening up of the release hand/forearm...like so many are trying to do. Not so much 'Increasing' tension as it is MAINTAINING what you have, since the release will rotate, if you LET IT ROTATE...
You might think that a lot of the expert BT shooters are wristing, because you see movement of the release handle...but most are NOT using their fingers to get that rotation...If you "lose" anything on the back wall as you pull thru the shot, then the site is going to shift low and right (right handed shooter) or low and left (for lefties). The first sign of loss of tension will be the slight shaking of the site picture and then the "diving" of the site in the direction described above. As you try to FORCE the site back to center, you will swear you are pulling your guts out...but you are getting nowhere...since you have, in essence only tightened up the forearm and release hand, maybe even bent the wrist...and ZERO or very little back tension can be done from this point onward....if you don't let down...get ready for a "4" or worse...
Gotta maintain that "tension" and relax your way into the shot...not FORCING it to happen, but letting it happen...this part of the "finesse" is what is so difficult to master, and why so many set releases "hot"...they don't wanna work the shot...but rather lazy it thru; and some get pretty good at it...for awhile, that is...haha.
field14 (Tom D.)


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## won (Feb 3, 2012)

\"I believe the point of using back tension is to of course maintain form, but more importanlly for the release to go off with out you expecting it (not anticipating the shot) if this is the end result who cares how they release thier bow.\"\" 

I care , I come here to learn ( most of the time ), if picking apart a great archers release helps me see the light ..... If I get one more X ........ 

\"The right method to shoot a release is whichever one allows you to consistently shoot where you are aiming. All that matters is results and it does not matter how you get there. 

There are too many \"experts\" on this forum that pick apart successful archers because they are not shooting the way they are \"supposed\" to be shooting. Get over it people. If shooting styles of successful pros work for you, use them. If they don\'t help you than try something else. We are all different and there is no one size fits all. You have to find what works for you but there is zero benefit in picking apart someone that is very clearly successful at what they do.\"

Most people on this thread ( who actually have a clue ) are not preaching , nor telling any one how to shoot , or saying this is wrong .......
The benifit of \"picking apart \" is studying effective methods that I might apply to my shot sequence and It might get me thru the next shoot off ,it might help someone else fold a deer up. 

There are a lot of people here at a very good level of archery , in fact the best in the world come here , pick thru it , ya might learn something , heck you can even ask if your strings match your fletchings and get an opinion !


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## won (Feb 3, 2012)

\"they don\'t wanna work the shot...but rather lazy it thru; \" 
What could be more perfect ? This is the best I can hope for , a laborless X , no work X ! , againX , nada X Perfect ! Look I am asleep on the line , X , 


\"You might think that a lot of the expert BT shooters are wristing, \" 
I think not at all ! I pretty much made this clear above , .... its steming from the back to the elbow to the wrist 

we all know its a hard thing to verbalize .....

as far as 
\"pulling \" lets say letting the weight hang on my pinkey finger ....

as far as hotness goes I would say at least 95% of constistant 300 shooters are in the front 1/4 of the releases \" hotness \" and 60% in the front 1/8th


just curiouse field - what is your average vegas score ?


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## ru4auto (Apr 19, 2010)

won said:


> \"I believe the point of using back tension is to of course maintain form, but more importanlly for the release to go off with out you expecting it (not anticipating the shot) if this is the end result who cares how they release thier bow.\"\"
> 
> I care , I come here to learn ( most of the time ), if picking apart a great archers release helps me see the light ..... If I get one more X ........
> 
> ...


Won I think you are missing my point, it wasn't to say that you shouldn't pick apart their style but more to pose the question, does it matter what the "correct" way is to release an arrow if they score the x consistently. one uses the push pull, one uses back tension, one punches the trigger, one rotates the release, one use a thumb trigger, one uses a index finger, and another uses neither, all of these ways mentioned has brought somebody to the top of the archery game. To each their own


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## won (Feb 3, 2012)

?double post will not delete /


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## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

Hey guys good stuff here. Everyone giving there opionions.

Wish a few more pros would come give there opionions.
DB


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## won (Feb 3, 2012)

ru4auto said:


> Won I think you are missing my point, it wasn\'t to say that you shouldn\'t pick apart their style but more to pose the question, does it matter what the \"correct\" way is to release an arrow if they score the x consistently. one uses the push pull, one uses back tension, one punches the trigger, one rotates the release, one use a thumb trigger, one uses a index finger, and another uses neither, all of these ways mentioned has brought somebody to the top of the archery game. To each their own


No harm no foul , no worries , 
Lots of ways to skin that cat , I am after the simplest , most effective , easy to repeat ..
Which means thinking out loud here sometimes ( sometimes too loud ) ?
In all honesty this is one of the better threads here in a while as far as information ... To some it seems a few are beating a dead horse i guess ... But I for one have stepped out 
several times to shoot , and check out some new theories , and techniques ......
There is no measurement for right or wrong , however efficiency can be measured , as well as accuracy and constancy .

In short I am good , very good at archery ,extremely accurate .. however I can improve in efficiency , and constancy , 

So in short I am in a hurry to find a more efficient , reliable vehicle to drive my arrows to work ,about 150 times daily .


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## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

won said:


> No harm no foul , no worries ,
> Lots of ways to skin that cat , I am after the simplest , most effective , easy to repeat ..
> Which means thinking out loud here sometimes ( sometimes too loud ) ?
> In all honesty this is one of the better threads here in a while as far as information ... To some it seems a few are beating a dead horse i guess ... But I for one have stepped out
> ...


Got to ask how good are you? Pro. amatuer. won a major tournament event in pros? If you make a bold statement like this. Best to back it up! I assure I know several in this thread and there darn good and have been for years. Maybe some of the best in field, indoors and 3d.
DB
DB


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## won (Feb 3, 2012)

Daniel Boone said:


> Hey guys good stuff here. Everyone giving there opinions.
> 
> Wish a few more pros would come give there opionions.
> DB



DB , 
Most pros are set in their ways. Watch the Reo video at lancaster , He canot explain his shot routine ( or care to ) , why , he is there ... efficient , reliable and accurate ! Why bother to verbalize or think about it , step up shoot X repete ,, easy 

I know for my self getting into reading and replying to this thread is only going to open make myself question my form and release , Thats cool by me at this point cause I am not yet pounding 60X at will under pressure ! If I were would I want to Think about it at all ...nope ....
Field 14 made a comment about being lazy on the shot , .... Welp is that not where we all want to be - No thinking just pounding X ------

DB - again loose that GD avatar and the TP will go bye bye !


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## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

won said:


> DB ,
> Most pros are set in their ways. Watch the Reo video at lancaster , He canot explain his shot routine ( or care to ) , why , he is there ... efficient , reliable and accurate ! Why bother to verbalize or think about it , step up shoot X repete ,, easy
> 
> I know for my self getting into reading and replying to this thread is only going to open make myself question my form and release , Thats cool by me at this point cause I am not yet pounding 60X at will under pressure ! If I were would I want to Think about it at all ...nope ....
> ...



You didnt answer my question?

Many are agresive with there BT release. Jamie Jamison has proven how good he is and said stay aggressive. Reo game isnt near as simple as you make it. Talk to these guys like Reo and Jesse and there always working on changes to improve yearly. Reo shot a thumb trigger for years and had a good reason to go to a BT. Really hope he comes and gives us a reason why? Your insult to fields shooting was uncalled for and hope many would not come make this a contest. So once again how good are you?
DB

PS changed my Avator. New is shows have faith in everthing you do!


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## won (Feb 3, 2012)

Daniel Boone said:


> You didnt answer my question?
> 
> Many are agresive with there BT release. Jamie Jamison has proven how good he is and said stay aggressive. Reo game isnt near as simple as you make it. Talk to these guys like Reo and Jesse and there always working on changes to improve yearly. Reo shot a thumb trigger for years and had a good reason to go to a BT. Really hope he comes and gives us a reason why? Your insult to fields shooting was uncalled for and hope many would not come make this a contest. So once again how good are you?
> DB
> ...


First all apologies to field ! Really was on the same page with you down the line ! Just hard to verbalize shooting techniques ....... 
I ask what you shoot because you seem to have good info . period ! Not a pissing match !

I am in no shoes to tell you how simple someones shot routine is .. however it is pretty well know upper level athletes run off their sub concise come game day.
Ie turn the brain off and trust your motor skills ! 
This is what I mean by Easy ! 
You have to work you but off for easy ! 
as far as how good , you got the pm , and lets not start a pissing match ....

congrats on the new avatar and a new target panic free future , 

many Xs !


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## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

Always enjoyed George Ryals comments.

Here a good vdeo of him explaing how to fire a release.

Click on link

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y8glZiI9fUw&feature=share


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## FishAlaska (Nov 30, 2010)

Daniel Boone said:


> Always enjoyed George Ryals comments.
> 
> Here a good vdeo of him explaing how to fire a release.
> 
> ...


Yes good explanation from GRIV. Much different method than some spoke about here. Like I said in past, do what works for you and not try to perfect what others do or you may go crazy trying to copy someone and the method may Or may not work for you. It is a topic that gets explained in many ways.


Sent from my SCH-I510 using Tapatalk


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## FishAlaska (Nov 30, 2010)

Daniel Boone said:


> Always enjoyed George Ryals comments.
> 
> Here a good vdeo of him explaing how to fire a release.
> 
> ...


He teaches this at his school and some in his videos also. 

Sent from my SCH-I510 using Tapatalk


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## wolf44 (Mar 31, 2009)

I have to laugh every time I watch that video and hear george say that the pinky and thumb are connected together "via muscle"


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## RatherBArchery (Oct 31, 2006)

His video shows they are connected in the wrist via a muscle band?! I sat through his seminar at Lancaster and found it VERY informative!! I would love to attend one of GRIVS weekend clinics!!


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## won (Feb 3, 2012)

From Larry Wise - right here on AT in the general info section 
A bit said on Twisting the wrist as well -

http://freeproxyserver.net/index.ph...say5jb20vdmIvc2hvd3RocmVhZC5waHA/dD00ODk3NzA=


\"Yes good explanation from GRIV. Much different method than some spoke about here. Like I said in past, do what works for you and not try to perfect what others do or you may go crazy trying to copy someone and the method may Or may not work for you. It is a topic that gets explained in many ways.\"

Grivs method has been brought up quite a bit here , \" Relax Tension & See Saw \" are exactly what he speaks of.


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## wolf44 (Mar 31, 2009)

RatherBArchery said:


> His video shows they are connected in the wrist via a muscle band?! I sat through his seminar at Lancaster and found it VERY informative!! I would love to attend one of GRIVS weekend clinics!!


they actually arent, muscles that control the mvmts of the two digits are on completly different sides of the forearm, completely different nerve innervations as well(t6 for the thumb and pointer t8 for the pinky)....put your thumb up like a hitch hiker...can you move your pinky and not your thumb?

I've spent enough time in a cadaver and text books to know that there is nothing directly connecting the two

george does know his archery and how to teach archery though


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## field14 (May 21, 2002)

wolf44 said:


> they actually arent, muscles that control the mvmts of the two digits are on completly different sides of the forearm, completely different nerve innervations as well(t6 for the thumb and pointer t8 for the pinky)....put your thumb up like a hitch hiker...can you move your pinky and not your thumb?
> 
> I've spent enough time in a cadaver and text books to know that there is nothing directly connecting the two
> 
> george does know his archery and how to teach archery though


Yes, you are correct...BUT....try this on for "size"

Put out your release hand as if you are holding on to the release aid. Now TRY to keep the middle and ring fingers "relaxed" as you tighten up and move your THUMB inwards toward the palm of your release hand...
Whatcha got...?
TWO things:
First both the middle and ring fingers compress inwards, as if squeezing them...but the THUMB did it when you tighted it up.
Secondly, the ENTIRE back of the hand tightens up...and you are NOT going to generate any sort of "decent" back tension or smoothness of tripping the release aid with a tightened up THUMB that is, in turn, tightening up the back of the release hand, which in turn tightens up the forearm, which in turn tightens up the upper arm, which in turn tightens the release shoulder...and has many other of the WRONG muscles all tight and tense.
Wristing off the release means TIGHTNESS...and is NOT back tension either, since you KNOW when you are trying to get the release to trip...more like command shooting. Of course, if the wristing is done smoothly and evenly, that is one thing...but a quick, jerky, wristing is the more commonly used method by "mid-level" shooters that "think" wristing is a good technique.

It isn't necessarily that "wristing" in and of itself is bad...it is HOW you are wristing that can be detrimental to the impact point.

field14 (Tom D.)


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## montigre (Oct 13, 2008)

STORMINMOOSE said:


> If there is independent hand rotation it is still command shooting because the brain is telling the hand when to rotate there is no suprise. No matter how much back tension you have applied.


I must disagree with you on this one. When my hinge is set up properly and I remain strong in the shot and not lose tension in the draw side of my body, then all I really have to do is stand there and place all of my focus on the spot I want to hit and sometime while the tension is being increased, the release just goes off without any conscious thought on my part. I stumbled onto this method this after reading this thread and trying a few of the methods that were discussed. 

Logically, I know the release is rotating in my hand—it has to in order to go off, and I know that there is some micro movement in my hand/fingers to effectuate that rotation, but when set up like described above, I am really not aware of any of these sensations and I also know that I am absolutely not “causing” it to happen on a conscious level. Hope this will stay with me because the execution really feels good and at least in practice, the shots are hitting the middle much more frequently. :wink:


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## won (Feb 3, 2012)

no can el deleto , my posto ??


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## won (Feb 3, 2012)

montigre said:


> I must disagree with you on this one. When my hinge is set up properly and I remain strong in the shot and not lose tension in the draw side of my body, then all I really have to do is stand there and place all of my focus on the spot I want to hit and sometime while the tension is being increased, the release just goes off without any conscious thought on my part. I stumbled onto this method this after reading this thread and trying a few of the methods that were discussed.
> 
> Logically, I know the release is rotating in my hand—it has to in order to go off, and I know that there is some micro movement in my hand/fingers to effectuate that rotation, but when set up like described above, I am really not aware of any of these sensations and I also know that I am absolutely not “causing” it to happen on a conscious level. Hope this will stay with me because the execution really feels good and at least in practice, the shots are hitting the middle much more frequently. :wink:


This thread was started how many days ago ? And you picked it up when ?
And you disagree ? ???


If the rotation is coming from the wrist alone , and not the \\\" elbow \\\" its a command or a cheat , might work for a few. 

read the article from Larry above


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## Bobmuley (Jan 14, 2004)

won said:


> This thread was started how many days ago ? And you picked it up when ?
> And you disagree ? ???
> 
> 
> ...


What is your definition of command? 

Mine is consciously making the release go off while the dot sits in the center. 

So if the act of triggering the release is subconscious via backtension, squeezing, pulling through, or rotation that would make it NOT command shooting. Call it cheat if it makes you feel better.


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## won (Feb 3, 2012)

Bobmuley said:


> What is your definition of command?
> 
> Mine is consciously making the release go off while the dot sits in the center.
> 
> So if the act of triggering the release is subconscious via backtension, squeezing, pulling through, or rotation that would make it NOT command shooting. Call it cheat if it makes you feel better.


I will agree , but perhaps not making the release go off when it is on center , but intercepting moving into center 
It works for a few , for sure 
I agree with where you are going ....

and I really agree with Finn about the hunt !!!


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## montigre (Oct 13, 2008)

won said:


> This thread was started how many days ago ? And you picked it up when ?
> And you disagree ? ???
> If the rotation is coming from the wrist alone , and not the \\\" elbow \\\" its a command or a cheat , might work for a few.
> read the article from Larry above


Actually, I've been following this thread since the first day DB posted the initial question. I learned to shoot a bow using a hinge release and have never shot any other form of release aid. In an effort to improve my overall archery experience, I have been working on making some improvements (that is what practice is about, is it not??) and this thread came up at a time when I just happened to be working on my release and shot execution. No, I did not just pick up a hinge release....

Furthermore, I do not believe I ever stated that the rotation was coming from my wrist, I pull my elbow back using my back muscles (thus the increasing tension) which causes the pressure to change on my fingers and the release to rotate in my hand and fire. I was disagreeing with the OPs comment that if the mind is involved, then it is a command shot. I have found that is the subconscious mind is involved, I can assure you the release is very much a "surprise" or a better word would be unanticipated and the shot is not at all commanded. Finally, I've had the pleasure of shooting with Larry Wise on several occasions and have spoken to him at great length about his method of firing a release with back tension and probably use bits of his method in my current approach. 

Frankly, I really do not understand why you have your panties in such a wad simply because you do not approve of a person's method of managing a release. The majority of your posts in this thread have been very argumentative and bordering on hostile. Why are you jumping on me from out of the blue when you don't know anything about me or have any idea of my involvement with archery?


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## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

montigre said:


> Actually, I've been following this thread since the first day DB posted the initial question. I learned to shoot a bow using a hinge release and have never shot any other form of release aid. In an effort to improve my overall archery experience, I have been working on making some improvements (that is what practice is about, is it not??) and this thread came up at a time when I just happened to be working on my release and shot execution. No, I did not just pick up a hinge release....
> 
> Furthermore, I do not believe I ever stated that the rotation was coming from my wrist, I pull my elbow back using my back muscles (thus the increasing tension) which causes the pressure to change on my fingers and the release to rotate in my hand and fire. I was disagreeing with the OPs comment that if the mind is involved, then it is a command shot. I have found that is the subconscious mind is involved, I can assure you the release is very much a "surprise" or a better word would be unanticipated and the shot is not at all commanded. Finally, I've had the pleasure of shooting with Larry Wise on several occasions and have spoken to him at great length about his method of firing a release with back tension and probably use bits of his method in my current approach.
> 
> Frankly, I really do not understand why you have your panties in such a wad simply because you do not approve of a person's method of managing a release. The majority of your posts in this thread have been very argumentative and bordering on hostile. Why are you jumping on me from out of the blue when you don't know anything about me or have any idea of my involvement with archery?


Your dead on in this and he really isnt listening to pros and others who really are saying what works for them. For whatever reason he feels he got this archery thing down. Will see if he makes the bigtime shooting agianst these pros. I assure you pro do command and control there BT release. Some tell me after a while they get to a point they know the release is going to fire and can stop in the pull if off target. Its about finding what works for you.
DB


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## montigre (Oct 13, 2008)

Daniel Boone said:


> Your dead on in this and he really isnt listening to pros and others who really are saying what works for them. For whatever reason he feels he got this archery thing down. Will see if he makes the bigtime shooting agianst these pros. I assure you pro do command and control there BT release. Some tell me after a while they get to a point they know the release is going to fire and can stop in the pull if off target. Its about finding what works for you. DB



Agreed, and I do hope he can find the joy this sport can offer as he seems to be a very angry person right now.... 

I recall shooting a 28-target field round not long ago with a very accomplished hinge release shooter and a severe storm started blowing in just as we were getting ready to shoot the final target. The winds had started gusting in excess of 60 mph ahead of the storm and the skys were growing darker by the minute. Since this target was very near the clubhouse and there was no lightening going on at that moment, we decided to go shead and complete the round. 

Well, we drew and took aim at the 45yard sharp down hill target and one of those mega gusts popped up nearly knocking me off my feet. I let down to wait out the gust, but he just paused in his shot routine and patiently waited....when the wind stared to subside a little, he fired off his shot and pinwheeled the X. Needless to say, I was amazed and humbled.... 

So, although it may be preferable to shoot a hinge totally subconsciously, there are times when knowing when and how to consciously command the shot comes into play. Finding the method that best suits you as an archer and produces the most consistent results is part of the fun of this sport--I am learning that it is the journey and not the destination that is important.


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## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

montigre said:


> Agreed, and I do hope he can find the joy this sport can offer as he seems to be a very angry person right now....
> 
> I recall shooting a 28-target field round not long ago with a very accomplished hinge release shooter and a severe storm started blowing in just as we were getting ready to shoot the final target. The winds had started gusting in excess of 60 mph ahead of the storm and the skys were growing darker by the minute. Since this target was very near the clubhouse and there was no lightening going on at that moment, we decided to go shead and complete the round.
> 
> ...


Nathan Brooks has a wealth of information and wish he would come share it here. These pros have been there and tried it all.
I remember as a young man Nathan shooting Stans release with travel out of this world, first time I ever witnessed a BT release. Remeber asking Nathan then why, he response was it teachs me to hold on target and aim. Watched him be open minded and trying new stuff to get to the top. Prime example he shooting the HEX release from Scott. If you think there only way in archery your going to be disappointed. 
DB
DB


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## rsw (May 22, 2002)

Rotation of the release is DEFINITELY NOT command or "cheating" necessarily. That is the way I have always shot my hinges and each and every shot is a total surprise. They are set slow and require a medium amount of rotation to activate, but the activation is just as much a surprise as using strictly BT technique. To make such a statement is completely inaccurate and exposes a lack of knowledge concerning release manipulation. In fact, I believe that anyone who used the rotation method and knew when it would activate would be a pretty mediocre archer and very likely suffering from anticipation as well.


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## rsw (May 22, 2002)

What I am going to write here is how I, and most of the hinge release shooters which I knew in the "good old days" of the 70s/80s shot the hinge. Prior to the field target change we all shot 560 rounds frequently and some of us most of the time. Subsequently 545s to 555s was a common range. I think this shows that our method was quite good considering the antiquated gear we were using then (a mid-550 score could probably be equated to a 559 or 560 today).

I draw my bow with a totally relaxed shoulder, arm, hand, wrist, and fingers using only my back muscles to draw and then hold the bow while aiming. Many will say BS, but give it a try (be sure to use a little curl on the fingers holding the release) and you will see that it works. I maintain the full draw with my index finger and simply rotate the release with my middle and ring finger, which does require a little additional muscle recruitment, using the index finger as a pivot point. The index finger never moves forward, but might move very slightly more rearward as I maintain strong back tension. I tried to slightly relax the index finger for a short while, but I found that to be inaccurate. I think it was simply because the anchor point was forced to change slightly by doing that, but I am not sure. At any rate, I got lefts and rights for no visible reason by doing that.


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## tpcowfish (Aug 11, 2008)

Tnx DB for all the vids, and imfo. Enjoying seeing, and learning from the pro's. This thread has been very helpful to me, as a greenhorn


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## field14 (May 21, 2002)

montigre said:


> Agreed, and I do hope he can find the joy this sport can offer as he seems to be a very angry person right now....
> 
> I recall shooting a 28-target field round not long ago with a very accomplished hinge release shooter and a severe storm started blowing in just as we were getting ready to shoot the final target. The winds had started gusting in excess of 60 mph ahead of the storm and the skys were growing darker by the minute. Since this target was very near the clubhouse and there was no lightening going on at that moment, we decided to go shead and complete the round.
> 
> ...


In order to be able to shoot in the wind, you have to practice shooting IN THE WIND; which most shooters avoid, if at all possible; that is, excepting those that do indeed seize the opportunity to PRACTICE in the wind.

I learned, long, long ago when I was a "clicker slave" about shooting in the wind...but of course, I also had no choice, since I learned outdoor shooting in Wyoming. If you wanted to shoot outdoors, you learned to shoot in the wind, hahaha.

Little secrets about how the clicker (or the release) would go off differently depending upon whether the wind was from left to right or right to left....it works the same way, but especially with a trip-gate release, and in order to know how this effects your shot...you gotta get out there and shoot in the wind. There IS a difference, depending upon wind direction on how the shot will work. If you know this difference and are pro-active about it, you have a big advantage over those that only practice in ideal conditions, and when the wind blows...they are nearly helpless in how to handle the situation.
It is just like watching people shoot blank bale. They won't vary the position of their "T" formation as part of "ProActive" practice in preparation for shooting top or bottom target...or for uphill or downhill shots...and yet, this CAN be accomplished up close to the bale, if you just stop and think about what you are doing. Being ProActive has advantages and makes practice less boring to boot.
field14 (Tom D.)


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

I'm disagreeing with Tom's above reply - wind thing. Seems those who do know wind factors carry a back up thumb release. See where the ASA moved to Texas on a different month and the first thing I heard was; "Maybe it won't be as windy."


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## field14 (May 21, 2002)

SonnyThomas said:


> I'm disagreeing with Tom's above reply - wind thing. Seems those who do know wind factors carry a back up thumb release. See where the ASA moved to Texas on a different month and the first thing I heard was; "Maybe it won't be as windy."


Sonny,
Been shooting in the wind since around 1968, and trust me, in Wyoming...the wind always blows. Didn't have the luxury of a "thumb release" back then...started with barebow shooting, moved to recurve/clicker with fingers, recurve with BT release, compound with BT release...long before the "triggers" ever came about. When you have learned to shoot BT in the wind, a thumb trigger MIGHT be a bonus to have around, but personally, I won't depend upon a thumb trigger to bail me out WHEN the wind is blowing. 
The biggest mistake people make is making that change when the wind is blowing, letting the "wind" get into their heads, and NOT simply making a strong shot and trying to wait out the perfect moment to loose the shot. Then, they are NOT making their shot and letting the wind control them and their shot sequence.

If you don't PRACTICE in the wind...backup thumb release or not, you are NOT going to perform well when the wind is blowing during a competition; plain and simple.

Those that "know wind factors" also PRACTICE in the wind and know how to deal with it. Wind shooting is NOT all about which release aid you use, it is about preparation and learning to deal with it with your PRIMARY release aid and not depending upon something different to bail you out. 
Those that don't practice in the wind are almost clueless and all they can do is "guess" and complain about how well they'd be shooting 'if the wind doesn't blow" or HOPE that somebody will hold an umbie for them to block the wind. Of course, in field and target shooting, there is no such thing as the use of an umbie to block the wind for the shooter. They have no clue how different a right to left wind is from a left to right wind and how their shot setup is effected by this very situation; let alone major or minor gusts and how to "bubble", when to bubble, when to "aim off" and when to simply keep a strong bow arm and shoot the shot.
Very few shooters are ProActive when it comes to wind shooting. Afterall, they aren't going to go out and practice in conditions that will lower their practice scores; won't go out and intentionally practice bubbling (on calm days) to find out how much of an impact change is gotten with varying "bubbling effects" intentionally put into their shots. Intentionally shooting in the wind and moving around so they can practice left to right and right to left as well as direct head or direct tail winds, or quartering winds...NOPE...MOST shooters won't do it.
Same with rain...very few shooters will go out an practice in wind AND rain...might get wet and screw up some practice scores....Once again, those that do prepare for WHEN this happens are the ones that will prevail.
If the wind is gusting super hard, then even bubbling won't help you out much, if at all...and actually neither will the thumb trigger back up...it is "go for it and deal with it". Those who don't let the wind get into their heads and those that have practiced in the wind will prevail.
Gotta learn how to deal with it and be prepared for WHEN the wind is blowing, because shooting in the wind isn't an "if", it is a WHEN.
field14 (Tom D.)


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## montigre (Oct 13, 2008)

Both points very well taken. Sonny, I'm not sure I want to venture into the realm of thumb releases just yet, as my overly analytical mind has been giving me quite the ride with regard to the hinge and I just might be getting close to to taming the thing; however, I do see the validity of both your and Field's responses. 

Shooting in less than perfect conditions would get me more used to my equipment and teach me how to handle those types of situations with greater ease, especially during a competition. And as I continue to expand my geographical shooting area and venture to places where there's less natural protection or venues shot in the open, I'm going to be more exposed to the elements and should plan, at some point in the near future, to learn to shoot a thumb release as a solid, repeatable back up. Thanks!!


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## field14 (May 21, 2002)

I might add something that puts a wrench in the spokes of many a shooter and will continue to do so. Many won't like what I say, or take it the wrong way, but here it is anyways.

After a day of shooting a COMPETITION in the wind (you know, the score really does count in competition, now doesn't it??), you'd better be prepared to go back to the range ASAP and get your shot sequence back onto process! Why? Because no matter how good you think you might be, a day or a weekend of shooting in the wind WILL set you off kilter and will have started some bad habits to going.
ESPECIALLY with the use of a thumb trigger in the wind, when you can (and might even HAVE TO) DUMP a shot on the go by or punch it "now" to get rid of it! That process, done several times during a "wind shoot" WILL get into the "system" and can really upset the balance of things in a hurry.

If you continue the process into the subsequent practice sessions and don't "clean it up NOW", then you can be well on your way to drive by shooting, punching, target panic, not letting the pin settle and all sorts of ailments.

One way to insure you don't let this happen is to go INDOORS for a few practice sessions and get yourself back into "form", or shall we say, "get back into the groove". This should include some blank bale work, some blind bale work, some up close work, and then some scoring rounds just to get yourself back onto an even keel. 

Shooting in the wind for a day or a weekend can and will get into your head and wreck things; especially if your confidence level going in and coming out of that weekend are weakened!

field14 (Tom D.)


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## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

montigre said:


> Both points very well taken. Sonny, I'm not sure I want to venture into the realm of thumb releases just yet, as my overly analytical mind has been giving me quite the ride with regard to the hinge and I just might be getting close to to taming the thing; however, I do see the validity of both your and Field's responses.
> 
> Shooting in less than perfect conditions would get me more used to my equipment and teach me how to handle those types of situations with greater ease, especially during a competition. And as I continue to expand my geographical shooting area and venture to places where there's less natural protection or venues shot in the open, I'm going to be more exposed to the elements and should plan, at some point in the near future, to learn to shoot a thumb release as a solid, repeatable back up. Thanks!!


Many shooters have a thumb to use on windy days. I know some practice with a backtension and shoot the thumb on shoot day.

Got to find what works for you.

Put Tim Gillingham in shoot down on windy day he tough to beat with a thumb trigger.
DB


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## field14 (May 21, 2002)

*Gotta find not only what works 'for' you, but you gotta find what works "with" you, too*. 
The only way to "find" that is to practice with BOTH during those conditions WHEN they exist...BEFORE any major competitions. It is way too late when you arrive at a competition, find the wind is blowing and now you gotta decide whether or not to make the switch from BT to Thumb trigger; if you haven't DONE IT, it isn't going to magically work for you!!! I hear/see so many mid-level shooters that are so ill-prepared and haven't a clue...You hear them say, "Well, I guess that since the wind is blowing, I'll switch to my thumb trigger and give it a whirl." Say WHAT? You haven't even shot an arrow yet to even know if the wind is that bad or not, and you are already making changes?

Tim G also has a HUGE advantage with regard to wind shooting over a lot of the others. Tim G. is from UTAH, and the wind out where he lives is always a howlin'. In fact, Tim G. lived in my hometown in Wyoming for awhile...so he sorta like "grew up" with shooting in the wind! It won't affect him anywhere near as much from a mental aspect as it will most other shooters. Same with RSW...he, too, grew up shooting in the wind...shot recurve with fingers, recurve with BACK TENSION releases (that is ALL we had when releases first came out, so we shot what we had), Ragsdales, Pridgens, and the sorts that lived in the Mountain West, and the Plains States. Rags grew up in flat and open TEXAS, if I recall??? Wind howls in them ramparts too. I remember San Antonio not being the calmest place I ever shot in, hahaha.
Shooters from those areas are "one up" on shooters that don't have to deal with those situations on a daily basis while shooting outdoors! They end up having to wait for a CALM DAY to practice in, hahahaha.

field14 (Tom D.)


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

There is a degree of wait for the hinge release to fire. The longer the wait in extreme wind does what? It doesn't effect the hinge release, but does effect the shooter. I've seen shooters take off their long stabilizers and even kneel on the ground in attempts to evaded the wind. As Tom noted, the more you practice in poor weather the better, but how many times does one shoot in extreme wind? I'm not going out to find some wind blown area to practice.


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## field14 (May 21, 2002)

Sonny, that "extreme wait" you are talking about....can and often is caused by the SHOOTER being tentative, especially in the wind when the sight isn't sitting as still as normal! Thinking STRONG SHOT and doing so works wonders IN THE WIND, just as it does without the wind; amazing, huh?
Simply shucking it off and changing over to a thumb trigger isn't going to heal that process. First off, you're changing something in a tournament; and if you haven't practiced for that 'change' you are putting yourself into a changed setup.
Secondly....often times, depending upon wind direction (left to right or right to left)...the shot IN THE WIND can be going off FASTER, not slower! A person shooting in the wind has to pay attention to more than just the flag(s) on the target, which tells them roughly what the wind is doing...at the target butt. Eyes, ears, spotting scope or binoculars, powers of observation, shooting your OWN SHOT (and not somebody else's).
I knew some top shooters that WOULD go out and practice on days of harsh winds. Even this "mid-level" shooter would take advantage of a very windy day to go out and shoot...ESPECIALLY if there was a 900 round coming up, because those ALL are shot out in the open. I would also watch weather forecasts closely and pick days ahead of the shoot day that the winds were forecast to be close to what the shoot day forecast was and grab at those days and get my carcass out onto the range, wind, rain, or shine.
You're not going to go out and find a wind swept place to shoot, but someone that WANTS to be prepared for the tournaments WHEN the wind is howling? They WILL go out and find that place so they are prepared!
ANYONE can shoot great under ideal conditions...but those that can do so under miserable conditions rise to the top and have prepared themselves for it.
Fair weather shooters are fine, but they give away so many points during foul weather, and not all of those points are weather related either. The mental aspects of wind shooting are enormous.
I've shot in tournaments where bubbling wasn't going to work and aiming off the bale in la-la land was needed. I've shot in wind and rain so lousy that first I couldn't feel the release in my hand, and the shivering was bad enough I couldn't have held on the bullseye; let alone the added cold wind howling and blowing the bow all over the place. But hey, they wind affects everyone on the line. You grit your teeth, accept it, and do the best you can...but those that don't let it get to them will rise to the top. BT release or Thumb Trigger...preparation and accepting that you are going to miss (sometimes miss a lot) goes a long ways.
But hey...the thread is about BACK TENSION.

field14 (Tom D.)


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

Daniel Boone said:


> I know some practice with a backtension and shoot the thumb on shoot day.
> DB


I practice with either my Stanislawski Deuce or Mag MicroTrio and use my ST360 thumb release. The hinge just makes me better with the 360.

And beings we're talking back tension, all hinge releases are not designed the same. I was going to say made, but designed is more accurate. With some the heads or angles of are different. As per Stanislawski, the Deuce was designed to fire faster (not that I understand faster in terms of geometry). But then some people like the 3 and 4 finger and cut them down to two finger. I was floored when Marshal ??? (Chicago - Tom knows him) bought my 4 finger TRU Ball on a Saturday and came back for the Sunday finish with the Gold 4 chopped to a 2 finger. He shot it great.....


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## w9wicbikes (May 6, 2011)

I have just been fascinated by the number of comments with respect to the back tension method of release. I primarily shoot a Tru-Ball Sweet Spot II back tension release(BT) in a manner similar to the descriptions of 91Bravo and EGriggs. I was originally taught how to execute with a BT by pro Blake Egan. I followed up with Larry Wise's book Core Archery, which I feel is the benchmark for shooting with a BT release. Larry just produced a video of his classes and I recommend this video to anyone interested in shooting BT. 

I also shoot a STAN SX2 which is a thumb release. I shoot it using a method very similar to my BT. If Easykeeper wants to know how to transition from a BT to a thumb release, I suggest going to the STAN or Copper John site and downloading the instruction/maintenance sheets they have for their sites. They talk about using back tension to release their thumb release models. In my vase, when I shoot the SX2, I wrap my thumb around the release barrel and anchor and go through the same motions as I do when I shoot the Sweet Spot II.

One last comment. No matter what method you use on the BT release, some motion is require to operate the release. If you pull straight back on the release, it will not execute the shot unless some rotation of the release occurs. If you don't believe me, clip the BT release to a string loop and just pull backwards. The release will not go off unless your Superman.


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

SonnyThomas said:


> I'm disagreeing with Tom's above reply - wind thing. Seems those who do know wind factors carry a back up thumb release. See where the ASA moved to Texas on a different month and the first thing I heard was; "Maybe it won't be as windy."


Ahhhh! I see. Excuse me, Tom. I meant to say "I'm not disagreeing." My mistake. Thinking faster than I can type, I guess.


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## rn3 (Jan 4, 2008)

ttt


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## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

Here exactly what Reo says about shooting his BT relese.:thumbs_up



I have done it both ways twisting it off and just pulling. I do what ever at the time makes me shoot best. Hope this helps and best of luck to you.

Reo


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## rn3 (Jan 4, 2008)

Daniel Boone said:


> Here exactly what Reo says about shooting his BT relese.:thumbs_up
> 
> 
> 
> ...


The "true back tension" posters aren't going to like to hear that Reo cheats the release sometimes. Probably the more important thing than back tension is a solid bow arm with minimal movement while trying to execute the shot. Watch all the top shooters, and pay attention to how much shake and movement is in the front stabilizer, then stand behind them and watch their scope and see how little movement their is. The steady hold is what seperates the greats from the rest of the mortals.


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## field14 (May 21, 2002)

rn3 said:


> The "true back tension" posters aren't going to like to hear that Reo cheats the release sometimes. Probably the more important thing than back tension is a solid bow arm with minimal movement while trying to execute the shot. Watch all the top shooters, and pay attention to how much shake and movement is in the front stabilizer, then stand behind them and watch their scope and see how little movement their is. The steady hold is what seperates the greats from the rest of the mortals.


This "true back tension" shooter already 'knows' that the top echelon shooters "take" the shot when it is available, when and if they have to. THAT has never been any sort of 'secret' at all! There is, however a difference between "taking" the shot and "TAKING" the shot, and that difference is huge!
The top echelon and most "true back tension" shooters have mastered the technique and finesse to be able to "take' the shot without "TAKING" it..."TAKING" it meaning a rough, close to punching it type of "TAKE". The "take" has got to be smooth and easy and NOT an uneven, herky-jerky motion. The "TAKE" of the shot will nearly always guarantee a miss, when a well-practiced "take" of the shot will get you the result you want (most of the time, but not always).

Doesn't surprise me one bit about Reo "twisting it off" or just pulling to do whatever at the time makes him shoot best. Cousin Dave has said basically the same thing as have several others. They do know however, that come Monday, they'll be back at the practice bales getting things back into proper synch before the "pattern change" becomes a bad habit, hahaha.

field14 (Tom D.)


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## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

rn3 said:


> The "true back tension" posters aren't going to like to hear that Reo cheats the release sometimes. Probably the more important thing than back tension is a solid bow arm with minimal movement while trying to execute the shot. Watch all the top shooters, and pay attention to how much shake and movement is in the front stabilizer, then stand behind them and watch their scope and see how little movement their is. The steady hold is what seperates the greats from the rest of the mortals.


Most joes dont think a pro has anything to offer. Sometimes giving the truth hurts.
DB


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## field14 (May 21, 2002)

Daniel Boone said:


> Most joes dont think a pro has anything to offer. Sometimes giving the truth hurts.
> DB


DB, Your statement is absolutely most unfair to the "Joes". What is the source of all this data that clearly PROVES that "MOST" Joes don't think a pro has anything to offer? Please share with us this DATA and numbers count concerning this comment?

I will agree, however with the second statement in your post. In many cases, yes, the truth hurts, especially when it comes to saying that it is the SHOOTERS' fault when they miss or shoot a poor score and NOT the equipment or accessories. ROFLMAO.

T


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## highdeehoo (Apr 10, 2005)

I tried this and all I can say is WOW!! It is way more simple and really seems to work for me. This is what I have been looking for to take me to the next level!!


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## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

field14 said:


> DB, Your statement is absolutely most unfair to the "Joes". What is the source of all this data that clearly PROVES that "MOST" Joes don't think a pro has anything to offer? Please share with us this DATA and numbers count concerning this comment?
> 
> I will agree, however with the second statement in your post. In many cases, yes, the truth hurts, especially when it comes to saying that it is the SHOOTERS' fault when they miss or shoot a poor score and NOT the equipment or accessories. ROFLMAO.
> 
> T


Well Tom let a pro post here. Most are doing it wrong and most here will tell them. Im sure Reo comment he doing it wrong at times but Im not going to be the one to tell him.
DB


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## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

highdeehoo said:


> I tried this and all I can say is WOW!! It is way more simple and really seems to work for me. This is what I have been looking for to take me to the next level!!


Which way did you try. Maybe give me some insight.
DB


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## field14 (May 21, 2002)

Daniel Boone said:


> Well Tom let a pro post here. Most are doing it wrong and most here will tell them. Im sure Reo comment he doing it wrong at times but Im not going to be the one to tell him.
> DB


OK, NOW I understand what you meant...what you typed earlier didn't come across in that fashion. My bad. Unfortunately, however it is likely that most "joes" don't fathom the huge difference with regard to the FINESSE that top notch shooters such as Reo and others utilized to get that job done! They'll completely mis-interpret what Reo is telling them....
field14 (Tom D.)


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## smokin'dually (Feb 27, 2004)

Ttt


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## redman (Feb 22, 2003)

i have to give ERIC G way a try


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## redman (Feb 22, 2003)

I been useing ERIC G way of useing a release with lot of travel with a carter slider and its working


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## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

TTT for good thread


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## Labs (Jun 3, 2004)

Very helpful read for me...thank you!


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## Alpha Burnt (Sep 12, 2005)

I must confess, here of late, I have started twisting release and have seen good results! Moral: do not be afraid to try new stuff! Using pure back tension as a means of triggering release, getting a lot of lefts (sometimes low lefts) for no apparent reason. Starting twisting while playing around and seems to be more consistent for me. I do not know, maybe I need to tweak dl to get them together?


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## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

Alpha Burnt said:


> I must confess, here of late, I have started twisting release and have seen good results! Moral: do not be afraid to try new stuff! Using pure back tension as a means of triggering release, getting a lot of lefts (sometimes low lefts) for no apparent reason. Starting twisting while playing around and seems to be more consistent for me. I do not know, maybe I need to tweak dl to get them together?


Most over think it!
DB


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## N7709K (Dec 17, 2008)

shoot what works for ya! in the wind if you shoot a hinge, you have to adapt and take the shot you can get.. indoors you can shoot a much more consistent timing because there is no wind.

pro's have lots to offer, for the most part they just choose to not come on the internet and share that information


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## drtnshtr (Jan 20, 2003)

A couple years ago Derry Null (Senior Pro) showed some of us locals how he used his BT release and it involves some twisting to fire it. He sets it very very very deep so when he comes to full draw he has to twist it until his hand is almost totally surrounding and gripping the handle. Almost all tension is off of his index finger and the majority of the release is being held with his last thing fingers (including pinky). This way its just a straight back little pull and the release fires. Its very slick and more of a "fluid" motion than most. I tried it and liked it but went back to my Thumb trigger because Im more consistent with it.


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

Glad this popped back up. Subscribed - just too much good stuff here not to subscribe


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## Alpha Burnt (Sep 12, 2005)

N7709K said:


> shoot what works for ya! in the wind if you shoot a hinge, you have to adapt and take the shot you can get.. indoors you can shoot a much more consistent timing because there is no wind.
> 
> pro's have lots to offer, for the most part they just choose to not come on the internet and share that information


True, and being pro's they probably use free time to shoot instead of coming here and pecking on the keyboard!


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## loujo61 (Apr 29, 2005)

What about us guys that grab up the release till it clicks then pop it when the sight picture looks right? Lots of tension with very little hand movement. Not a Pro but thats what works best for me, and I have really bad target panic with any trigger, no panic with a hinge.


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## Alpha Burnt (Sep 12, 2005)

I was always in the camp that if you rotated, yanked or whatever you were cheating the release. Using good form, creating a lot of tension with the back and building until the release goes off= those arrows should go in there. As I said, I started to notice inconsistencies and sometimes caught myself cheating the release with my tension. I played with rotating and I am now in the camp that do whatever you can to be the most consistent. This may be a crutch for me doing it this way, but I have been shooting much better since. Wish I would not have been so close minded and figured this out indoors in the winter time when I knew the yardage!


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## va MTN MAN (Jan 24, 2003)

One thing i think helps alot of people with a hinge type release over a thumb or wrist trigger is it is hard to start a hinge in the exact same place every time unless you start it around all the way to the left at the stop. With this being true the shot will dump a little sooner or later on different shots for a surprise shot whether shooting by just pulling or swiveling the release. The target panic comes from wanting the bow to go off with the pin dead in the x. Once your mind knows you cant tell exactly when the release will dump you can move on to aiming and waiting for the shot to happen. This is harder for those with a thumb trigger or wrist strap as the trigger travel is constant and you will learn it if you are command shooting it. Once you train yourself to aim and trust the shot you will be able to shoot any of the release types well. The trick is to know the shot is way more important than the aiming. Beginners all think the aiming is the only thing that matters, if you can hold dead still in the x you will be the best. Might be true. Up to this point in time no one has ever been able to do that. Jmo


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## isaacdahl (Feb 27, 2010)

As long as you can do it subconsciously go for it, but purposely rotating the release CONSCIOUSLY is imo the same as punching the trigger...works for some, doesn't work to great for others.


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## Kale (Jul 29, 2007)

I have been shooting back tension for about 5 years, about the same time I have shot in tournaments. I went exclusively to a hinge about 2 years about. For me it is pretty simple. I shoot with a click. 

Draw, come into the peep. As soon as I do this I relax my hand and the click goes. Let it float while squeezing my back muscles which in turn moves my elbow back which cause the release to rotate which fires it. 

If you are consciously rotating the release to make it fire you are going to encounter problems. If I let the release do its thing I know the shot is going to be good. Sometimes I find when I get tired I start to get panicky and when it does not go off I rip it off when 100% of the time results in the arrow hitting straight right for me.

Just have to be patient and keep the tension and hard into the wall and squeeze the back muscles. For me I want the shot to go off in like 6-7 seconds from the click. Seems to work for me


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## N7709K (Dec 17, 2008)

Alpha Burnt said:


> True, and being pro's they probably use free time to shoot instead of coming here and pecking on the keyboard!


i think more of it revolves around a quote by a very well known pro, "archerytalk is the greatest waste of bandwidth in the history of the internet".... there is a good bit of truth to that statement


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## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

Alpha Burnt said:


> True, and being pro's they probably use free time to shoot instead of coming here and pecking on the keyboard!


So why do so many archers come here for advise? Pros certainly don't mind archers seeing there name here. Several pros don't post but there here and reading.
DB


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## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

N7709K said:


> i think more of it revolves around a quote by a very well known pro, "archerytalk is the greatest waste of bandwidth in the history of the internet".... there is a good bit of truth to that statement


 Is this how you feel? Could it be some kind of jealousy because this is the biggest archery forum on the net? I'm assuming this pro don't believe in Archers helping archers theory! I would tell him its not for everyone.
DB


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## tntone (Aug 13, 2006)

N7709K said:


> i think more of it revolves around a quote by a very well known pro, "archerytalk is the greatest waste of bandwidth in the history of the internet".... there is a good bit of truth to that statement


and your right there in the middle putting your 2 cents worth of wast in it also, if your gonna be negative then dont post...:thumbs_up


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## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

tntone said:


> and your right there in the middle putting your 2 cents worth of wast in it also, if your gonna be negative then dont post...:thumbs_up


Shame this has been such a good thread that many enjoyed
DB


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## tntone (Aug 13, 2006)

Daniel Boone said:


> Shame this has been such a good thread that many enjoyed
> DB


i agree.. ive enjoyed reading this thread and have tried several things i have read. archery talk has been a great place for information to help other and to get advice. we all pretty much know what and who to listen too and to tune out the other...


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## Jame (Feb 16, 2003)

Problem is most pros dont want to come on here cause someone always says "thats not the correct way of doing it". One thing I will say is MOST successful pros that shoot a hinge all shoot it really close to the same way.


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## tntone (Aug 13, 2006)

Jame said:


> Problem is most pros dont want to come on here cause someone always says "thats not the correct way of doing it". One thing I will say is MOST successful pros that shoot a hinge all shoot it really close to the same way.


im no pro but i agree with this... its what works for you.


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## abdapt (Apr 15, 2012)

I felt the need to sign in and chime in ...
Who here has read Core Archery , or at least taken the short time to see the video ?
There are many many ways to fire a hinge or " Pure Back Tension Release " 
Larry Wise is one of the few, and possibly only "coach" who has delved deep into what actually makes " true back tension " work. 
He has worked with actual real life Dr.s - put actual muscles with the movements ...
I recently was fortunate enough to spend a bit of time with Larry Wise. I came in shooting 300s and simply put looking to be a more consistant 300 shooter.
I thought i shot " back tension" and maybe I did ? - 
I can say for sure I came out after a few sessions with a new ide of back tension - a solid definession - a solid felling , a knowlage of the feeling ...
I can safely say , it does not involve any concience knowlage of rotating the wrist , or hand ! 
Fact be known , if using proper Back tension to execute the shot , the shooter leverages the big stupid muscles in the back , along with complete relaxation , and great posture ! 
You can not get into these muscles in the back , unless hands , fingers , and forearm are 100% at ease .And more over a mind set . 
Yes there are many people using back tension to soot a bow , in fact most people use back tension to shoot a bow !
Larry teaches something true , and not simple , it involves perfect draw length , trusting in a anchor point that has nothing to do with where your release hand sits on your face , and a complete trust in form.
Pretty much everyone here uses back tension when they shoot ! Larry teaches a true back tension release train of thought and movement.
That said I personally might or might not stick to his "style and form "
I will take what he taught me , swallow it all , then apply it to my skeleton and limbs. 
If you get the chance spend a few hours with the man - he is getting old , and his feet hurt - and I have feeling his time is going to be spent with the grand kids ! 

Thanks MAn !


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## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

When it comes to BT there many ways. But when you got guys who have won several major events you got to listen. 

Plenty of ways to fire a release and win.
DB


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## abdapt (Apr 15, 2012)

Daniel Boone said:


> When it comes to BT there many ways. But when you got guys who have won several major events you got to listen.
> 
> Plenty of ways to fire a release and win.
> DB


plenty ?
This is some of the most beautiful footage of some of the best shooters and their form 360 ..in compound archery ....
The one thing every single person has in common is a straight relaxed wrist bone , straight knuckle to elbow .. 
you must be stretched out and relaxed , even pulled out , fingers to elbow - transfer to the big back muscles ..
again this is a beautiful ballet , perhaps the best text book for our sport I have seen 

for your viewing pleasure ..






by the way great info in this thread here , thanks !


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## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

abdapt said:


> plenty ?
> This is some of the most beautiful footage of some of the best shooters and their form 360 ..in compound archery ....
> The one thing every single person has in common is a straight relaxed wrist bone , straight knuckle to elbow ..
> you must be stretched out and relaxed , even pulled out , fingers to elbow - transfer to the big back muscles ..
> ...


 So your saying there only one way to release a BT release? Well actually many dont shoot a hinge released. I dont see the simularities. So many different forms. Good video though. Still feel it comes down to what comfortable for you. Release does have to turn to fire. Keep it simple.
DB


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## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

abdapt said:


> plenty ?
> This is some of the most beautiful footage of some of the best shooters and their form 360 ..in compound archery ....
> The one thing every single person has in common is a straight relaxed wrist bone , straight knuckle to elbow ..
> you must be stretched out and relaxed , even pulled out , fingers to elbow - transfer to the big back muscles ..
> ...


Dean Pridgen shooting in this link has shot plenty of inside 60X scores and won more than his share of indoor and outdoor national field events. Very dominate archer in his days and with equipment not near what we have today. Still concedered by many has one of the best archers ever. Amazing to hold a bow that steady at age 70.

Link
http://s194.photobucket.com/albums/z289/okiebwhtr/Archers/?action=view&current=Picture140.mp4


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## abdapt (Apr 15, 2012)

So your saying there only one way to release a BT release? Well actually many dont shoot a hinge released. I dont see the simularities. So many different forms. Good video though. Still feel it comes down to what comfortable for you. Release does have to turn to fire. Keep it simple. "

No man ..
skin that cat any way you see fit ! 

" Release does have to turn to fire. Keep it simple. "" .. unless you punch it or plan let go of the string !..

"


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## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

abdapt said:


> So your saying there only one way to release a BT release? Well actually many dont shoot a hinge released. I dont see the simularities. So many different forms. Good video though. Still feel it comes down to what comfortable for you. Release does have to turn to fire. Keep it simple. "
> 
> No man ..
> skin that cat any way you see fit !
> ...


Amazing when you ask each of these pros. They seem to keep it simple and dont seem to over think it. I believe that the key and being comfortable and love what your doing. Practice becomes no fun it time to get that back up bow out. Fishing pole or golf clubs or something to get your mine off archery for a few days. Keep it fun 
DB


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## fanio (Feb 1, 2011)

tntone said:


> and your right there in the middle putting your 2 cents worth of wast in it also, if your gonna be negative then dont post...:thumbs_up


and there I thought America was built on free speech... you may not agree with someone - then say so; but don't tell him not to post.

I agree this is an interesting thread.


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## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

fanio said:


> and there I thought America was built on free speech... you may not agree with someone - then say so; but don't tell him not to post.
> 
> I agree this is an interesting thread.



We got mods here for good reasons. No free speech! I for one am glad we got them here. Any thread can be deleted.
DB


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## J Whittington (Nov 13, 2009)

bsharkey said:


> this is why you have to love AT even when the pros tell you how something is done the weekender will still tell you your wrong you guys rule :wink:
> DB how can the pro's be right when the AT faithful say's dey b wrong?


Simple! They ( the pros) are the best in the world. They are the ones receiving contracts and winning the contingency money!!! Common sense should tell us they know what they are doing, or they wouldnt be able to kick all of the know it all's arses!
Just telling it like it is, Or as the young bucks say keeping it real,


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## N7709K (Dec 17, 2008)

Truth hurts at time, and I did was relay what has been said to me when someone asked about pro's and the site. Pro's don't need to post on a forum to help people, they have other outlets at which to offer their advise, aid, whatever you want.... Hit up a big shoot and go to the practice range or trade show, they are approachable and usually pretty nice guys.

As for my feelings on the site, there are many threads that either do not aid shooters or fail to explain the prerequisites needed to have "x" work for them. If the classifieds weren't here and I didn't have a contractual obligation to be here I wouldn't be. Fb, face to face, practice, coaching has put up as much info without the egos


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## Mahly (Dec 18, 2002)

With a solid back wall bow, you can't "just pull through the shot" like we did with our old sloppy backwalled 2 cam bows. You pretty much have to rotate the release to get it to fire.
As long as you don't know WHEN it's going to go off, you will get a surprise release and the release hand will fly back on the shot.
With modern bows, I find it MUCH easier to shoot back tension with a thumb release than with a hinge release. My thumb release has virtually NO travel. Once I have my trigger preloaded, all I do is add tension to the backwall. Nothing really moves, but the tension is transferred to the trigger, firing the bow.
With a hinge release, it must rotate. A solid back wall prevents your elbow from dropping, so you have to rotate it either with your wrist, or by letting up on index fingers and/or adding with pinky/ring fingers.
It's not all that complex.


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## subconsciously (Aug 22, 2009)

Mahly said:


> With a solid back wall bow, you can't "just pull through the shot" like we did with our old sloppy backwalled 2 cam bows. You pretty much have to rotate the release to get it to fire.
> As long as you don't know WHEN it's going to go off, you will get a surprise release and the release hand will fly back on the shot.
> With modern bows, I find it MUCH easier to shoot back tension with a thumb release than with a hinge release. My thumb release has virtually NO travel. Once I have my trigger preloaded, all I do is add tension to the backwall. Nothing really moves, but the tension is transferred to the trigger, firing the bow.
> With a hinge release, it must rotate. A solid back wall prevents your elbow from dropping, so you have to rotate it either with your wrist, or by letting up on index fingers and/or adding with pinky/ring fingers.
> It's not all that complex.


Agree completely. My wife(who's a heck of a shot) just could not shoot her new vantage elite+ with spirals...but she won Nationals with a VE with cam1/2's. She went back to her Conquest 4 with the mini max cam. Got rid of the rock solid wall and back to something with a little give, and she's back to shooting great again. Different strokes for different folks.

There is no right way or wrong way - just your way and my way.


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## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

N7709K said:


> Truth hurts at time, and I did was relay what has been said to me when someone asked about pro's and the site. Pro's don't need to post on a forum to help people, they have other outlets at which to offer their advise, aid, whatever you want.... Hit up a big shoot and go to the practice range or trade show, they are approachable and usually pretty nice guys.
> 
> As for my feelings on the site, there are many threads that either do not aid shooters or fail to explain the prerequisites needed to have "x" work for them. If the classifieds weren't here and I didn't have a contractual obligation to be here I wouldn't be. Fb, face to face, practice, coaching has put up as much info without the egos


Truth is many archers come here daily and some are pros. May not post all the time but there here and approachable through pms. 
Thousands of archers of all walks come here daily. This is the source for archery info and plenty of good info. If you want to come get and attain info its here to get. If you want to come judge others and mention egos there plenty of those here as well. Lack of appreciation for Archerytalk is here as well. Some don't understand this forum doesn't run itself. Members have made this what it is today. You yourself mention the classifieds, plenty of good members work hard to keep that classifieds running. Lots of good info here including pros and former pros that dont mind giving a little time here to help a fellow archer out. :thumbs_up Look in this thread how many have taken the time to help a fellow archer, Pro ar not. Thats something great.
DB

PS
Just like anything come look for the bad and you can find it. Some seek it!


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## juancurbina (Mar 24, 2011)

Great coment. What brand, model and size realease do you use?


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## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

juancurbina said:


> Great coment. What brand, model and size realease do you use?


I got big hands and use the Scott Megahorn. Made for large hands.


Scott Longhorn series are good releases.
DB


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## fanio (Feb 1, 2011)

Mahly said:


> With a solid back wall bow, you can't "just pull through the shot" like we did with our old sloppy backwalled 2 cam bows. You pretty much have to rotate the release to get it to fire...With a hinge release, it must rotate.


yes.



> A solid back wall prevents your elbow from dropping, so you have to rotate it either with your wrist, or by letting up on index fingers and/or adding with pinky/ring fingers..


no, not true. have a look at Bernie's book or Larry Wise's.


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## bobinhood (Aug 27, 2006)

Back up great reading.


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## bow-legged (Nov 26, 2002)

I have been shooting like this for the last week and half and its working for me. 

I dont lock up and my left and rights are tighter. 

The hardest thing for me is to trust it and keep my eye on the spot and keep the release moving. If I do that the arrow will go where Im looking.


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## spswihart (Dec 21, 2009)

I'm certainly not a pro, and I'm new to BT, started using one in Feb this year. I shoot a Mathews DXT with a TRU Ball Ultra Sweetspot 2, 4 finger. The first day I shot it by rotating the release with my fingers, then I learned to trigger it by moving my elbow back. A coach shot the release and said that it was set really cold. I started adjusting it lighter and lighter, until now, all I have to do is get to anchor, click off the safety, and pull thru the shot. For a while I had to think about relaxing my index finger and pull with the other three, but now I don't think about anything but "AIM" and just pull thru the shot. I have worked on my form this year and I am really strong on my Shot Sequence that gets me to the "AIM" part, and the shot goes off about 4 seconds after I start to pull. I love the way it feels and I'm shooting better than I ever have.


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## Ronin Conan (Jul 4, 2011)

Not sure how many of you guys have seen this, but Deloche (3rd french shooter) is clearly rotating the release to get it to fire. It's interesting to contrast that with Reo, whose style is much more subtle (I _think_ he's shooting a hinge)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Urx6ti2xuAo


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## jimb (Feb 17, 2003)

Ronin Conan said:


> Not sure how many of you guys have seen this, but Deloche (3rd french shooter) is clearly rotating the release to get it to fire. It's interesting to contrast that with Reo, whose style is much more subtle (I _think_ he's shooting a hinge)
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Urx6ti2xuAo


Braden Gellithien rotates his also and Dave shoots with the thumb trigger release and the trigger is out on the end of his thumb so he is probably triggering by thumb only.


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## dkkarr (Jun 12, 2011)

marked for later


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## Thermodude (Dec 15, 2011)

Read through the posts, very interesting reading for sure. I just started shooting a hinge late last year and am using it for 3D this year. Ive gotten some very good advice from various hinge shooters here on AT about how the release is meant to be set off. Im shooting a Stan Jet Black and the method that seems to be most consistant for me is mentioned a number of times in this thread. I pull into my anchor and transfer as much of the hold as I can to my back, as I settle into the X I slowly begin to relax my index finger and shooting hand. Yes Im very new at this but from everything Ive tried this is what feels best for me and its the style Ive worked on the most.


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## chevman (Nov 3, 2006)

Ttt


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## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

Oldie thread but a good one for sure.
DB


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## chirohunter73 (Nov 29, 2008)

Thanks for the info


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## erdman41 (May 6, 2009)

up once more


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## TargetOz (Jan 16, 2013)

Padgett said:


> I have my hinge set pretty fast and I am getting to anchor and that is it my form is set in stone. From that point I am not trying to move my elbow or anything else, I just put pressure on my middle finger and take pressure off my index finger. My hinge doesn't go off until I put a little more pressure on my middle finger by basically pulling a little.
> 
> I shot for 6 months and got really proficient at shooting my hinge using my rhomboids but I just never really liked the way it felt and this new method really feels good because I feel like my form is way more solid and the transfer of the hinge from index to middle finger is very easy. I have done some reading where it is suggested that pulling against the back wall during back tension can create problems when the hinge goes off to early or to late because the pressure against the wall causes problems and inconsistant shots due the different pressure on the wall. I am really preferring being against the wall with the same amount of pressure each shot.



Well said!!


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## slicer (Dec 18, 2008)

The thing all of the finger techniques have taught me is this: The rotation of the elbow and scapula sliding towards the spine causes all of these finger techniques to happen without thought or conscious manipulation.


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## mrp (Oct 13, 2007)

Some guys were just born to do it..... Nathan Eric Dan......

The rest of us were put here to struggle.


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## TargetOz (Jan 16, 2013)

ohiorobp said:


> So riddle me this. If one wants to try a bt release without spending a fortune. What would you recommend? This thread has me amped to try. But I don't want to spend a bunch trying something.....thanks


By bt release I'm assuming you mean hinge style, I bought my Scott Longhorn Pro 3 from eBay for $70, good as new, gave it a polish and now it shines.


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## TargetOz (Jan 16, 2013)

Saw a great vid on bt release/ hinge release by Nathan at a Scott seminar, makes sence to me now, great thread DB...
http://youtu.be/sw4n4OrpnCI


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## Kighty7 (Feb 7, 2004)

I have been working since February on learning back tension. I have had good days and struggles. I have shot a 4,3 and 2 finger TRU Ball Sweet spot. I believe I will be sticking with the 2 finger. It is slow going but I am excited to get home today and try some of the stuff mentioned in this post. Thanks DB for the links and the posts by everyone.


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## ILOVE3D (Feb 4, 2009)

at the top again please


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## jskd (Sep 19, 2005)

LOL gotta love ATers.... If what they are saying to do is cheating the release well then I'm all for it cause they are proof that it works.... Keep struggling by pulling your back muscles and thinking your way is the only way


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## buckman2591 (Feb 6, 2011)

Ttt


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## ArcherXXX300 (Apr 22, 2013)

tagged. i'll read this later.


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## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

Maybe one of the best threads talking about backtension.

I still laugh when folks say these pros are doing it al wrong. LOL

I not rocket science!
DB


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## johncraddock445 (Aug 7, 2012)

tagging 

Sent from my V8000_USA_Cricket using Tapatalk 2


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## Lazarus (Sep 19, 2005)

Mike2787 said:


> I think I've shot more arrows with a hinge release than anyone on the planet and I agree with what Eric says 100%. People often ask me how I shoot a release and I honestly tell them that I have no clue. After close to 40 years shooting a non-trigger release, everything I do is sub-conscience and muscle memory. I know I rotate the release after I settle in and aim. I always thought that I put more tension on my pinkie and ring fingers but considering how tight my grip is on my release, that may be hard to do. Frank Pearson told me he has watched me shoot with a very close eye and he said that I move my wrist to set off the release. Makes perfect sense to me. As far as back tension goes, I know I shoot with it. When I was younger, I would creep as I aimed, something you could get away with 20 years ago, but I would still explode or have a dynamic follow through off of my shot. Part of that is probably the result of the stresses built up in the muscles that are used for pulling and pushing the bow but the biggest part is the result of a surprise release. The first time a person experiences a true surprise release, their reaction and follow through is going to be somewhat larger than subsequint shots.
> 
> I honestly don't know how The Hammer and Dietmar get away with shooting the way they do. If I shot that way, people down range would be in mortal danger. It has proven to be very successful for them so I keep an open mind.
> 
> I think the keys to shooting well are to keep it simple, relax, develop a good routine that works for you and not listen to every Tom Dick and Harry that has an opinion.


I just started reading this topic, the above post comes from page 2. 

No need to read any further. Pretty much sums it up. Thanks Mike for a great response even though it's over a year old.


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## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

I read through this thread again and some of my posts and it is amazing how much I have grown since this thread began. Nothing is more important than time spent shooting using good techniques and they are right here.


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## dschonbrun (Nov 14, 2012)

Daniel Boone said:


> Maybe one of the best threads talking about backtension.
> 
> I still laugh when folks say these pros are doing it al wrong. LOL
> 
> ...


Dan, I think Eric ruined it... he demistified the mystery... so many AT'ers thought pro's knew something special! Now we find out the pro's are just better at executing consistently!

I've no more reason to pursue knowledge about BT shooting, just need more practice.


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## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

dschonbrun said:


> Dan, I think Eric ruined it... he demistified the mystery... so many AT'ers thought pro's knew something special! Now we find out the pro's are just better at executing consistently!
> 
> I've no more reason to pursue knowledge about BT shooting, just need more practice.


Dean Pridgen one of the best archers I know always says archers make this game harder than has to be. LOL Of course Dean told me $1200.00 bow wont help someone with ten cents of talent. That be me!
DB
DB


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## dschonbrun (Nov 14, 2012)

Daniel Boone said:


> Dean Pridgen one of the best archers I know always says archers make this game harder than has to be. LOL Of course Dean told me $1200.00 bow wont help someone with ten cents of talent. That be me!
> DB
> DB


DB, but I thought your DST costs 1.5 times that?


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## cloquet (Jan 12, 2004)

ttt


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## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

dschonbrun said:


> DB, but I thought your DST costs 1.5 times that?


Still boils down to talent.
DB


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## possum trapper (Nov 24, 2005)

ttt


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## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

dschonbrun said:


> DB, but I thought your DST costs 1.5 times that?


Dean still called that bow a ten out of ten. LOL
DB


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## Joe Schnur (Mar 22, 2012)

Ttt


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## TNMAN (Oct 6, 2009)

This thread is probably the last one to have known pro's describe their methods. DB may have been the only one who could have made it happen. Thanks for that, DB.


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## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

Holy crap, this is one of the threads back when I first had started to really understand what was really going on with hinge shooting. I found my little post from 2012 and I remember who I was back then and how awesome it was to read what Eric Griggs was saying and it helped me to move on to even better knowledge and shooting. Thanks to DB and Eric.


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## dw'struth (Mar 14, 2008)

Padgett said:


> Holy crap, this is one of the threads back when I first had started to really understand what was really going on with hinge shooting. I found my little post from 2012 and I remember who I was back then and how awesome it was to read what Eric Griggs was saying and it helped me to move on to even better knowledge and shooting. Thanks to DB and Eric.


Yeah... You've done OK since then. lol


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## Lazarus (Sep 19, 2005)

TNMAN said:


> This thread is probably the last one to have known pro's describe their methods. DB may have been the only one who could have made it happen. Thanks for that, DB.


DB was good, no doubt about it. But it's a different day, different time now. 

God couldn't even get most of them to come back on now days. :sad: But then why would they? Just to be told they were doing it wrong? If it weren't so sad it would be funny.


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## Mahly (Dec 18, 2002)

Why would a pro give any credence to anyone other than an even better pro, or at least someone who coached championship winning pros?
Heck Laz, you have a pro discussing BT in your sig... and he's still doing fine.
I say, if your a pro and have something to say here, say it.


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## DenCMSC (Jul 30, 2007)

Nice vids, DB, thanks for posting....it really is "all in the wrist"....


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## Tipsntails7 (Feb 21, 2013)

This is a pretty good thread, and I wouldn't discount what a pro shooter has to say but people should understand that not everything a pro does is beneficial to the average guy. Take what they do attempt to apply what works and leave what does not. This is a pretty easy concept but often over looked.

Professionals no matter what discipline have advantages over regular joes, wether it be physically or mentally and most of the time a mix of both.

When I played baseball at Hawaii our catching coach did not base our drills and teaching off Johnny bench or Pudge Rodriguez, arguably the two best defensive catchers ever, why? Because these guys have physical gifts that very few people possess and fundamentally they were quite flawed in areas, especially bench, but their physical gifts were great enough to overcome that.

So when a pro speaks or you have the ability to watch one, take it all in but realise everything they do may not be beneficial to making you better.


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## MPKO (Sep 18, 2014)

Great reading and big thanks. I myself have been doing Archery now only couple of years and this thread has helped me a lot with my hinge shooting. I'm using hinge in competitions and thumb release in hunting. I'm trying to use similar technique with both of them, but I have sometimes difficult time to accomplishe that. Any hints how you are shooting thumb release with BT?


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## Fury90flier (Jun 27, 2012)

relax the index finger and let the release pivot so the thumb barrel pushes into the thumb/thumb pad.


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## MPKO (Sep 18, 2014)

Thanks for the reply. How do you set the barewl


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## MPKO (Sep 18, 2014)

Sorry I pressed wrong button  

How do you set the barrel on thumb. On tip of your thump or more deep towards fist?


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## Fury90flier (Jun 27, 2012)

for me it's as far back in the hand/thumb pad as I can...front/tip of the thumb has too much movement making it an inconsistent point for the barrel. It's one of those things that you have to play with and figure what works for you.


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## LMacD (Mar 16, 2015)

tagged


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## dmacey (Mar 27, 2015)

I don't even shoot a hinge and this was a great thread. But as I said in intermediate-advanced, it's 40 miles of bad road to read all the way through. Always amazing how many World Cup champions there are out there that you never saw shot at the World Cup....

DM


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## johncraddock445 (Aug 7, 2012)

dmacey said:


> I don't even shoot a hinge and this was a great thread. But as I said in intermediate-advanced, it's 40 miles of bad road to read all the way through. Always amazing how many World Cup champions there are out there that you never saw shot at the World Cup....
> 
> DM


Hey slick.... Its a discussion board.... People come here too discuss... That also includes sharing their own personal experiences... Yes there are some knuckle heads but if you found something that you swore worked for you wouldn't you be eager to share it with someone else? If not, shame on you... Archers helping archers right?


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## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

Might help a few here if they read through this!
DB


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## mongopino915 (Mar 3, 2009)

tag


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## coastiehunter2 (Jun 27, 2011)

Ttt for a classic with indoor starting up this is a good one. It's really hard to just pull on the release and have consistent timing when shooting under pressure for indoor, something that I fight with year after year. Hoping to fix this problem this year.


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## Trykon Mike (Aug 25, 2007)

tagged


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## westender (Sep 25, 2017)

. . . and this is how Levi Morgan explains it https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=JbJO6u0mLJ8


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## lees (Feb 10, 2017)

The gems are #30 and all of EG's followups, Kent Stigall's posts and this Levi Morgan video. The rest carries little to no info and can be pretty much ignored, but those postings and the LM video are pure gold.....

lee.


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## coastiehunter2 (Jun 27, 2011)

If any of you guys are freezing up give it a try


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## carlosii (Feb 25, 2007)

I understand DB had some health issues. Anybody know how he's doin?


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

carlosii said:


> I understand DB had some health issues. Anybody know how he's doin?


Rare, but Daniel does grace us once in a great while. Last he noted he would probably never shoot again...


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