# Seriously confused about JOAD Stars Pin Program



## Serious Fun (May 12, 2003)

Warbow said:


> I'm confused about the details of the JOAD Stars Pin Program. The award matrix doesn't mention age categories at all. The outdoor scores seem only to use bow divisions and, for 60/70 meters, gender divisions. But the Indoor scores seem, well, I don't know what to make of them.
> 
> Here's the current rounds sheet from USA Archery:
> 
> ...


These are great questions for club leaders to ask their state JOAD coordinators, lacking that, their national regional coordinator, JOAD committee and alwasys Diane Watson as the National JOAD Coordinator. The JOAD Star Pins awards program is adaptable for each JOAD clubs practical "reality" in an encouraging way I hope. The JOAD Olympian achievement as a national level award is more specific than the JOAD star pins program.


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## Moebow (Jul 8, 2010)

I'm with Warbow on this one! I came into a club that had a JOAD program long before I showed up, but I didn't know much, if anything, about it. I tried for 3 years to get more information and help getting the program restarted -- without success. The JOAD hand book basically sucks in my opinion as far as getting a JOAD club going again and I've given up. When I took my Level 3 training and Diane was in that class so I have met her and at that time she offered all the help I needed to get going. But since that time, I have not gotten ONE response from her regarding questions I've sent. NOT ONE! All the state coordinator here is good for is letting me know about JOAD tournaments and wondering why we don't send anyone to them.

I hope that maybe the new "Outreach" coordinator USAA has hired will help us out here in the sticks get help and information on the program. Until then, our club will stay registered as a JOAD sponsoring club but our program is seriously broken due to lack of support. I will continue to teach all comers archery but there is no real JOAD program here. I haven't even noticed the stuff Warbow mentioned, as far as I can find, there is no way to order pins even if I needed any.


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## Warbow (Apr 18, 2006)

Serious Fun said:


> These are great questions for club leaders to ask their state JOAD coordinators, lacking that, their national regional coordinator, JOAD committee and alwasys Diane Watson as the National JOAD Coordinator. The JOAD Star Pins awards program is adaptable for each JOAD clubs practical "reality" in an encouraging way I hope. The JOAD Olympian achievement as a national level award is more specific than the JOAD star pins program.


Bob, if a really on the ball JOAD guy like you doesn't know the answers to these questions then I think I'm in trouble. :embara:

I had hoped that maybe I just overlooked something that would be obvious to experienced JOAD leaders. I've had to get the Adult Achievement levels fixed on multiple occasions, with the help of Jane Johnson and Diane Watson. I wasn't surprised those awards had issues since the AAP was an often overlooked program and the awards levels, especially traditional class, seemed to be an after thought , but I'm pretty surprised to see that the criteria for the JOAD Stars Pin program is unclear in the official documents considering how big a program it is. And that lack of clarity is compounded by not being completely described in either the JOAD Handbook or in the Rounds pdf, but rather one has to actively compare both documents back and forth to try to eek out an understanding. With the AAP, nobody really cared about it, which was both the problem and also aided the solution, since seemingly nobody opposed improvements to the system. But the Stars Pin program is entrenched, both in current award winners and the organizational structure of JOAD, something I'm neither a part of nor familiar with.

I definitely want to kick this over to USA Archery for some answers if nobody here knows. I was going to write up a summary of the Stars Pin program for our JOAD kids but after checking the Handbook and rounds sheet I realized even after studying it I don't understand it, so there is no way I can explain it to our kids. And at the moment, that is what is important to me. I want to be able to tell the kids exactly how the program works, so first I need to find out for myself.


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## Warbow (Apr 18, 2006)

Moebow said:


> I will continue to teach all comers archery but there is no real JOAD program here. I haven't even noticed the stuff Warbow mentioned, as far as I can find, there is no way to order pins even if I needed any.


I was just about to tell you that you can find it right on the JOAD main page at USA Archery, silly me . The order form PDF is on the JOAD Awards System page, which I suppose makes sense, but for some reason it took me forever to find it. (Maybe I was looking too literally for the "Stars Pin Program"?) Oddly, the order form is a mail order form, as in you are actually supposed to print it out, hand write your order on it and mail it to them. There is something wrong with USA Archery and JOAD when the awards pins can't be bought on-line--and if verification of eligibility to buy the awards is an issue, that is still something that can be more efficiently processed with electronic order submissions rather than mail in forms.


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## Beastmaster (Jan 20, 2009)

A few comments.

1) The JOAD Pin program allows some flexibility based upon the decisions of the club leaders.

For example - the club I teach for is a predominant indoor club. So, we utilize the "novice" category as someone under 9 years of age or as someone migrating from NASP to JOAD and learning the differences in distances and target faces.

The other pins and age combinations are as follows:

Bowman/Cub - Compound (40cm outer) and Recurve (60cm) - follows what's shown as "18 Meters Olympic and Novice".

Cadet/Junior - follows what's shown as "18 meters Olympic- Outer 10, Compound - Inner 10"

Lanyards - we use the same lanyards as what normal lanyard use would be. So, if a compound novice was shooting indoors, you'd have a grey lanyard. If a compound novice was shooting outdoors, you'd have a green lanyard.

The bottom row of the table is specific for Cadet/Junior indoor, recurve (what they call "Olympic"), or compound. 

To answer other questions:



> Why does the Novice (barebow) division stop at white outdoors but seemingly continue on to Gold Olympian in the Indoor division?





> Why does Novice (barebow) require lower scores than Olympic outdoors, but the exact same scores as Olympic indoors? Why even have the division if it shoots the exact same scores Indoor as Olympic?


Barebow never has been addressed properly. It's assumed that one would progress to something beyond barebow (erroneously, of course) and go towards something with sights. I have commentary on that later on in this post.



> Assuming the difference between the bottom two rows on the table for Indoor Olympic division is 60 vs 40cm target, the Red Star pin requires a 250 on a 60 cm or 240 on a 40cm outer ten. That's a 4% reduction in required score, but a 44% reduction in area of the target, if I've done my math right. Is there a formula to calculate score to area equivalencies at the same distance? If so, does this compensation in score for the smaller target fit the formula, or experience as equivalent?


The theory is that when you go from Cub to Cadet, you're gaining in experience and in better hand/eye/body coordination. There has been some formulas created, but I'll address that later in the post as well.



> I hope that maybe the new "Outreach" coordinator USAA has hired will help us out here in the sticks get help and information on the program.


This is going to be an interesting unknown. In word of mouth mentions of the theoretical "new" organization chart, the new Outreach coordinator has Diane Watson reporting into Mary. In my view, this is somewhat of a huge mistake - the outreach coordinator should be working hand in hand with the JOAD coordinator; equals, if you will. 

Personal commentary:

I have this fear that JOAD is going to become a redheaded stepchild as time goes on. In some cases, you're already seeing this happen.

Utilizing the JOAD Committee as an example, the JOAD Committee has submitted a very detailed recommendation on how the 50 meter round should be incorporated into the JOAD award pin program. They created a formula on how target size should correlate to scores.

This recommendation was submitted upward a while ago. Management (above Diane's pay grade) has yet to act on it.

I find it irritating (as both a parent of a very accomplished compound shooter AND a coach that predominantly teaches compound archers) that the 4 distance FITA has been pretty much eliminated from the compound ranks here in the United States. Not to sound crass, but I had to have my kid travel to El Salvador to earn his Yellow and Bronze Olympian outdoor pins. (yeah, he earned much more than that, but the fact that he had to go out of country to get his 60 and 70 meter scores says something there).

Here in Arizona, some of the club leads have talked about doing 4 distance pin shoots so that the compound archers don't get screwed.

I also worry about the new organization chart (if what I have heard becomes or is a reality). 

Mary's position basically puts a buffer between JOAD and upper management. 

The whole point of JOAD is to:

1) reward and encourage archers to achieve and succeed within their skill levels
2) become a feeding point from JOAD to higher performing programs such as JDT and USAT.

The purpose of the Outreach director is to promote "...Junior Olympic Archery Development, After School Archery Program, Adult Archery Achievement and instructor level certification" (USA Archery press release). 

I have a minor concern that the ASA and other outside entities basically are paying Mary's salary. Human nature has a tendency to cater to the hands that feed you and not the ones you're supposed to serve. And in the process, JOAD becomes an afterthought instead of becoming a way to not only bring more kids into the fold, but also create and continue a pipeline for archers to excel into the world ranks.

With this being said - things are still in flux. I don't see anything settling down until far after the Olympics and ParaOlympics are over. I sincerely hope my concerns become wrong.

-Steve


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## TomB (Jan 28, 2003)

Beastmaster said:


> A few comments.
> 
> 1) The JOAD Pin program allows some flexibility based upon the decisions of the club leaders.
> 
> ...


You are not alone with those concerns.


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## Beastmaster (Jan 20, 2009)

One thing that I forgot to mention - barebow. Apologies for not putting that into my original post.

Barebow seems to be an even more forgotten stepchild. With the exception of certain archers continuing on with the barebow tradition, it seems to be losing traction.

Which, I find interesting. With Hunger Games and Brave both showing the use of barebows, I ask one question - are we (collectively) supposed to take a position where we are to emphasize sighted recurves?


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## rpdjr45 (Jul 28, 2007)

JOAD was a simple concept and program when created, and then made overly complicated, seemingly for the sake of making it complicated. In doing so, even with the "pins" system, and we've taken the fun out of archery. The purpose for JOAD, originally, I believe, was to provide a learning program that would be inclusive of beginners and be able to provide more coaching for the few who may find themselves 'really' good at it; and have Olympic style tournaments adjusted to their age groups. But not at the expense of the others and not at the expense of having fun. May just be me, but JOAD has become what Pop Warner football is. It used to be fun, playing with real equipment with adults teaching the "fun"dementals, and the kids having a great time while learning the game. Not fun anymore. My point is, USA Archery as the governing body needs to simplify the system, and keep it simple. Here's an idea, if we really want to know what to do, ask the kids; and they'll also tell us what is wrong as well. If, however, the purpose of JOAD is solely to root out the elites from the so-so, then we are right on track for success. My two bits worth of insight.


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## Moebow (Jul 8, 2010)

My take on that, Beast, is YES bare bow is not a focus or even an interest in USAA. They seem to feel that they are under the gun to get Medals on the world and Oly stage. Their only focus is on that. I for one, have learned sighted (FITA style) shooting just to be able to coach it but my interest is and always will be on bare bow/ traditional shooting! There is a huge group to draw on out there and it seems to me that USAA is overlooking a great source for archers on any of the "stages."


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## Beastmaster (Jan 20, 2009)

To help things out, here's what our club does with indoor pins. Please note - this is indoor only. I will do a separate posting regarding outdoor pins and how we handle them.

Feel free to steal this guideline for your own clubs. Also bear in mind that at this time, all of our barebow shooters are in very early stages of training, and will be transitioning to sights at some point in the near future.

Starting off, if you're either under 9 years of age, or if you're doing a NASP to JOAD transition, you're a Yeoman.

Yeoman shoot only at 9 meters, and use this as their scoring criteria:

Recurve: 60cm target face
Compound: 40cm target face
Pins: Green - 50-99, Purple - 100-149, Grey - 150 - 199, White - 200 and higher.

Once the shooter goes beyond 200 (no matter what their age is), we move them to either Bowman (if they are still under 9 years of age), or to their age appropriate category.

Bowman and Cub:

Recurve: 60cm face. Compound, 40cm Face. Compound shooters get the OUTER 10 (just like at JOAD Indoor Nationals).

Pin Scoring as follows:
Purple - 30-49
Grey - 50-99
White - 100-149
Black - 150 - 199
From beyond black, our club requires you to have a USA Archery Membership in order to earn pins beyond Black. It's a club requirement, not a USA Archery requirement. This gives a theoretical boost for USA Archery and membership so that the archer has motivation to continue.
Blue - 200 - 249
Red - 250 - 269
Yellow - 270 - 289
Bronze Olympian - 290-294
Silver Olympian - 295 -299
Gold Olympian - 300

Cadet and Junior:

This is where we differ slightly from the chart. We start off new Cadets and Juniors from Purple to Blue using the Bowman/Cub criteria. Remember how I mentioned the system is flexible? Well, a beginning Cadet or Junior shooter needs the same incentives as Bowmen and Cubs. So, here's what we do with Cadets and Juniors.

Recurve AND Compound - 40cm face. Recurve shooters get OUTER 10, Compound shooters get INNER 10. This matches up with Indoor Nationals *and* FITA tournaments.

Pin Scoring as follows:
Purple - 30-49
Grey - 50-99
White - 100-149
Black - 150 - 199
(Same thing as Bowmen/Cubs - once you hit Black, you have to be a USA Archery member to earn pins beyond Black)
Blue - 200 - 249 
Red - 240-259 (Recurve outer 10/Compound Inner 10 begins here)
Yellow - 260-279
Bronze Olympian - 280-284
Silver Olympian - 285-289
Gold Olympian - 290-300

Hope this helps on the indoor side. The next post will be what we do with Outdoor.

Thanks,
Steve


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## Beastmaster (Jan 20, 2009)

Outdoor pins:

Some minor notes before I get into the outdoor pins.

1) NASP to JOAD transitions shoot in the NASP/Novice category. The Arizona State Archery Association specifically creates a NASP Barebow category. This is generally at 10 and 15 meters to match up with what NASP does. It is encouraged that the Genesis bow owner eventually either upgrades the bow, or does add ons to the bow so that it can be competitive in a proper category.

2) We still follow the individual distances for specific pins. Until the 50 meter compound criteria becomes official (and yes, I do have a final copy of what was proposed and no, I will not pass it out or discuss the details until it becomes ratified), our club is forced to promote the individual distances with it's own minimum qualifying score. 

3) We admittedly recommend that if you're shooting outdoor, that you do so with sights. 

4) One of the local clubs puts on 900 round tournaments. Even though they don't conform to the 36 arrow rounds, we have shooters new to outdoor shoot a few of them so that they get used to what an outdoor tournament is like, albeit one 6 arrow end short per distance.

With that being said, our kids earn outdoor pins at a far slower rate. Part of that is the distance criteria - you don't see too many Bowmen shooting 60-70 meters.

So, here's how we handle outdoor.

a) Start at the distance appropriate for your age. So, if you're a Bowman, your first pin earning can be as close as 15 meters. If you're a Cadet recurve shooter, your first opportunity could theoretically be 30 meters. 

b) You're not going to earn every pin. No one shoots 40 meters nowadays, for example. 

c) You can't shoot downward in class, but you can shoot upward. So, if you're at a tournament where you're shooting a 4 distance FITA, and you're a Cadet, you can shoot for your pins at 70, 60, 50, and 30 meters. As a Cadet, you cannot shoot a Bowman class 4 distance at 30/25/25/20 just because you want to earn the missing pins. If you're a Cub, you can shoot upward as a Cadet.

d) Recurve shooters follow the "Olympic, outer 10 ring" scoring criteria. Compound shooters follow the "Compound, outer 10 ring" scoring criteria.

More general rules that we follow in the next post.


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## Beastmaster (Jan 20, 2009)

Other general rules. Feel free to adopt or toss what you like/don't like:

1) You cannot shoot a Bronze Olympian score and get every pin below that. You have to prove that you shoot that level by earning pins below that level. Outdoor - you have to shoot distances appropriate for your age group and earn the pins at the shorter distances first. Indoor, you have to earn your way from Purple to Yellow before going after your Bronze.

2) We allow a two pin earning jump per tournament day. Using Spencer as an example - the Ranking Round at the Pan Am Championships was a single day, 4 distance FITA. This means that our club would only allow two of those scores. Since he already was at Red, he could (and did) earn his outdoor Yellow and Bronze Olympian at 60 and 70 meters.

3) We accept any club shoot, state, national, or international score as long as the following criteria is used:

Club shoot - done with double scoring. This includes indoor leagues that conform to USA Archery rules. A copy of the signed scorecard with one other archer's signature is acceptable. 

State shoots - As long as the state shoot conforms to USA Archery rules, you're fine. A copy of a signed scorecard with a judge, other archers, or tournament official is acceptable.

National shoots - This should be a Star FITA and conforms to FITA rules. A copy of a signed scorecard with a judge, other archers, or tournament official is acceptable. Official published scores from the organizing committee is also acceptable providing the individual round scores are separated out.

International shoots - Just like a national shoot, this should be a Star FITA and conforms to FITA rules. Anything from a signed scorecard with judge/other archers/tournament official works, or official published scores from the organizing committee also is acceptable as long as the individual round scores are separated out. 

4) This is really for indoor and at club shoots - if you're a Bowman or Cub Compound shooter, you need to declare if you're using inner or outer 10 if you're shooting Bowman or Cub. This declaration needs to be done BEFORE you begin shooting, and should be noted down on the scorecard (inner or outer 10). 

#4 is void if you're shooting a non-JOAD based shoot. For example, JOAD's shoot inner 10 at the Indoor Nationals. There's no need to declare inner 10 because you're shooting inner 10....along with every other compound shooter out there. It's also void if you're a Bowman or Cub that is registered as a Cadet or higher.

Again, I hope this helps.
-Steve


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

I guess I don't understand all the fuss. Warbow, I think you're overthinking this. In practice, it's never been an issue for my archers.

Okay, admittedly, I didn't read everything above, but the pins and levels are pretty easy to understand, I think. The members of my club are enjoying the challenge of achieving their next pin, and several of them are approaching the Olympian levels. The Adults are also enjoying the challenge too.

The difference in scores in the bottom two rows is the difference between a compound archer shooting the whole 10 ring or just the inner 10. Or, the difference between an Olympic style archer shooting a 60 or a 40 cm. face.

I would agree that USArchery has consistently dropped the ball for barebow archers - for a long time now. This is not a recent thing. As many coaches of young archers know, some kids are going to either need to or want to shoot barebow and competing in that WAF-recognized style should not have to be a choice for an archer who wants to compete at all levels. 

I have at least two archers in my club now - great archers who truly love the sport - who are considering quitting JOAD because there is no longer a barebow achievement for them in JOAD.

This should be addressed. But personally, with the exception of barebow archers, I like the award pin system as it stands now - For both JOAD and the Adult Achievement Program.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

> We admittedly recommend that if you're shooting outdoor, that you do so with sights.


Sorry, but I completely disagree. We have two barebow archers who are shooting at 50M outdoors now to try to qualify for their blue star pin. One has come very close to achieving it multiple times.

Shooting barebow competitively, at distance, will only make these archers better when and if they adopt a sight and clicker. I can personally attest to that.

John


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## Warbow (Apr 18, 2006)

limbwalker said:


> I guess I don't understand all the fuss. Warbow, I think you're overthinking this. In practice, it's never been an issue for my archers.


Yes, I may be over thinking this. I always appreciate your practical, cut to the chase thinking.

I'm not really too worried about it in practice. But I do think that at the very least the explanations should be fixed. The program should be clear to all JOAD leaders and coaches from the official JOAD documents and be easy to explain to the JOAD kids. Right now I don't think it is. I still can't write up a clear explanation of the program rules and what role the age categories play. Can you? The rules, and intentions, should be fixed and be made clear, even it isn't the most important issue in JOAD. (Though it really seems they do need to offer a 50 meter compound distance.)



limbwalker said:


> The difference in scores in the bottom two rows is the difference between a compound archer shooting the whole 10 ring or just the inner 10. Or, the difference between an Olympic style archer shooting a 60 or a 40 cm. face.


But is it required or completely optional? The outdoor pins seem to be completely independent of JOAD age categories, so it would be odd and inconsistent for the age categories to suddenly matter in the Indoor discipline. 



limbwalker said:


> I would agree that USArchery has consistently dropped the ball for barebow archers - for a long time now. This is not a recent thing. As many coaches of young archers know, some kids are going to either need to or want to shoot barebow and competing in that WAF-recognized style should not have to be a choice for an archer who wants to compete at all levels.
> 
> I have at least two archers in my club now - great archers who truly love the sport - who are considering quitting JOAD because there is no longer a barebow achievement for them in JOAD.
> 
> This should be addressed. But personally, with the exception of barebow archers, I like the award pin system as it stands now - For both JOAD and the Adult Achievement Program.


I'd love to see more support for barebow. I got into FITA Recurve thinking it might help my trad archery. USA Archery has a structured training program in a way that barebow doesn't in my area. I think it would be good to bring people into USA Archery without telling them, ok, now that you are here you need to put away that "novice" barebow and take up "real" archery.

USA Archery's money seems to come primarily from its focus on its role as the NGB for Olympic archery, and so all else seems to be subservient to that role. In a way, I'm glad because that means support for Olympic recurve which is essentially nonexistent in other US archery organizations, even if that support has seemingly been tilted in favor of the elite program rather than grass roots programs. But the Olympic focus does seem to give short shrift for barebow support, even as barebow seems more popular in Europe than in the US.

One clear example of USA Archery's lack of expertise or support for barebow has been the Adult Achievement Awards (aka STP):

2008
The old six patch system. Bow divisions were "Longbow" (actually any bow shot without sights), "Recurve" and "Compound". To earn the highest patch in "Longbow" division you had to shoot 280 at 70 meters. The STAR FITA record is 276. I helped get that fixed with the kind intervention of Jane Johnson and support from Diane Watson. Jane calculated reality-based numbers for the longbow/barebow division based on actual Nationals scores, setting 210 as the score for the top longbow patch at 70M.

2010
USA Archery proudly announced the revised AAP, with an adult version of the JOAD pin awards. Now all you had to do to earn the top four awards in "Traditional" class is shoot 280, 290, 300, 310 at 70 meters. The Star FITA record is still 276. I emailed Diane Watson, and she managed to get it fixed in about a month.

It seems clear that the Barebow/Longbow/Traditional division awards scores were added as an afterthought, with someone merely using the Recurve scores as a baseline and subtracting a small, arbitrary amount to make the barebow scores. It doesn't seem like anybody in USA Archery actually shoots barebow, consulted with barebow shooters or did any research to see what is actually possible before setting the awards levels. The lack of barebow support is ironic considering that almost all JOAD and Olympic archers are initially trained on barebows. Now I look at the "Novice" division in the JOAD Stars Pin awards and wonder what is going on.

If you read the Handbook and the Stars Pin Program rounds sheet literally (if such an incomplete set of documents can be read literally), then NASP Genesis bow shooters are eligible to shoot 60cm Indoor targets from purple through Gold Olympian--so long as they shoot the exact same scores as their sighted, stabilized, clickered, kisser buttoned FITA Recurve compatriots. 

It would be nice if the "Novice" division was put into the Indoor division to give positive support NASP shooters. That would at least be something. But I can't be at all sure that is what is meant by the "Novice" division in the second to last row of the table since it isn't explained. If it is possible for Genesis shooters to shoot Purple through Gold Olympian, then the "novice" division is not only misleadingly labeled barebow, but insultingly so. Anyone shooting for an Olympian pin cannot be considered to be shooting "novice" anything. So, even if I'm over thinking things I'd like to see JOAD clarify the program--not necessarily change it, but at least explain what they mean, clearly.


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## Warbow (Apr 18, 2006)

Beastmaster said:


> To help things out, here's what our club does with indoor pins. Please note - this is indoor only. I will do a separate posting regarding outdoor pins and how we handle them...
> From beyond black, our club requires you to have a USA Archery Membership in order to earn pins beyond Black. It's a club requirement, not a USA Archery requirement. This gives a theoretical boost for USA Archery and membership so that the archer has motivation to continue.


Thanks for the detailed explanations. As to membership, I think USA Archery officially requires membership for black and above. I'm not sure how to interpret the rule, though:



JOAD Handbook 2011 said:


> 1.1.8 Practice and Fees
> ...USA Archery membership is not mandatory until the archers reach White Star achievement level.


I had thought that kids had to be a USA Archery member to be eligible to earn the black and above but that USA Archery membership wasn't an issue so long as they didn't want or need to try for the black pin. However, a literal reading of that rule is that once kids earn a white pin they can't be a member of a JOAD club any more unless they join USA Archery.



Beastmaster said:


> Remember how I mentioned the system is flexible?


Is the system flexible? I can't tell if the "flexibility" of the system is by design or by neglect. Either way, you have put in the work to make the system work for your JOAD.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

I don't mean to downplay your concerns Warbow. If not this, then soon enough, something else will surely come up that confuses the members and coaches. 

USArchery has done well in the past 6 years to grow our elite programs and better position our international teams, but little time is left for matters such as these. And it's very frustrating, especially since we have a groundswell of grassroots archery interest due to NASP and recent films. 

A house divided cannot stand. USArchery (NAA) needs to figure out where it's bread gets buttered, and soon.

John


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## Warbow (Apr 18, 2006)

limbwalker said:


> I don't mean to downplay your concerns Warbow. If not this, then soon enough, something else will surely come up that confuses the members and coaches.
> 
> USArchery has done well in the past 6 years to grow our elite programs and better position our international teams, but little time is left for matters such as these. And it's very frustrating, especially since we have a groundswell of grassroots archery interest due to NASP and recent films.
> 
> ...


Good point. Stars pin awards really aren't my biggest concern at the moment, either. I just want to be able to clearly and accurately explain the rules to the kids. It bugs me that I can't, and doing so is a annoying unchecked box on my JOAD to do list...

I hope USA Archery is thinking down the line, and not just about who's buttering their bread right now, but what they'll need to do to grow their base to insure that USA Archery doesn't become (continue to become?) irrelevant to most US Archers, which I would think would make the pool of potential US Olympians smaller.

I'd like to see USA Archery throw some more support for barebow, but I don't know if my wish is a practical one. Is it just as silly for me to want USA Archery to boost bare bow as many archers seem to think USA Archery's focus on FITA Recurve is in a country which who's archery is dominated by compound archery? :dontknow:


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

> and doing so is a annoying unchecked box on my JOAD to do list...


I suspect you have just one too many boxes on your list...


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## rharper (Apr 30, 2012)

Quick question regarding inner versus outer 10.

Shooting inner 10 means the 10x ring is now 10 and then what was 10 is now 9? So the outer white ring is 0 points?

Shooting outer 10 means there is a 10 ring and a 10x ring? Both scored the same just the x is used for tie breaking.

Correct or not?


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## larcher90 (Dec 8, 2010)

you are correct for outer 10, inner ten only effects the points in the gold, such that the inner 10 is worth 10, and both the outer 10 and the 9 ring are worth 9 points, and all other rings are unchanged.


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## Beastmaster (Jan 20, 2009)

A good example of the new target is shown here. 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nn0PbYN6UJY&list=PL2C3B1C24F16B3C50&index=1&feature=plpp_video


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## rharper (Apr 30, 2012)

Cool, thanks fellas!


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## Warbow (Apr 18, 2006)

rharper said:


> Quick question regarding inner versus outer 10.
> 
> Shooting inner 10 means the 10x ring is now 10 and then what was 10 is now 9? So the outer white ring is 0 points?
> 
> ...


The usage of the duel use FITA target can be confusing because different organizations and events use the outer and inner 10 ring differently. To clarify the use for indoor FITA competition, late last year FITA introduced simplified versions of the vertical and triangle layout FITA 40cm 3-spot faces with separate versions for compound and recurve divisions. 








The new faces make scoring more clear, especially to tv audiences. The new C and R faces are mandatory for the World Archery Indoor Championships. The combo targets are still FITA standard targets for various other competitions. The new faces "also affect tie-breakers, now for both team and individuals tie breakers will be determined by the greatest number of 10’s and then the greatest numbers of 9’s. If a tie remains, athletes still tied will be declared equal. For position in match play, a coin toss will determine declared equal archers position."


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## Warbow (Apr 18, 2006)

Beastmaster said:


> Recurve: 60cm target face
> Compound: 40cm target face
> Pins: Green - 50-99, Purple - 100-149, Grey - 150 - 199, White - 200 and higher.


I just noticed that you are giving score ranges. Does that mean that your archers earn the award for whatever score they shot rather than having to earn each award sequentially?


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## Beastmaster (Jan 20, 2009)

Warbow said:


> I just noticed that you are giving score ranges. Does that mean that your archers earn the award for whatever score they shot rather than having to earn each award sequentially?


Nope. They have to earn the award sequentially. So, if they shot (for the very first time ever) a 130, they get the green pin. They shoot a 135 the next scoring session, they get the purple.


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## Warbow (Apr 18, 2006)

Beastmaster said:


> Nope. They have to earn the award sequentially. So, if they shot (for the very first time ever) a 130, they get the green pin. They shoot a 135 the next scoring session, they get the purple.


Ah, thanks. The score ranges threw me off. There is no need for an upper range limit since you don't get any thing for exceeding it.


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## Warbow (Apr 18, 2006)

*Can anyone find any area where I'm demonstrably wrong in the following post?*

I tried making a better distance and target matrix to clear up some of the ambiguities. I thought it suddenly became clear and I had just missed something earlier, only to realize that I'd just proven that some of the JOAD rules are contradictory and untenable.

After looking at this again I'm more sure than ever that this has to be fixed, and that apathy, status quo complacency or asserting that the rules are flexible (as opposed to sketchy and contradictory) just won't do.

Here's a brief write up of some of issues I think exist and I'd like to have solved. Can anyone find any area where I'm demonstrably wrong in the following post? If so, please say what is specifically wrong and on what basis. Thanks 

*JOAD Handbook and Stars Pin Awards Rounds sheet contradict each other*

*Contradictory Rules*

One example of a contradictory set of rules is the targets the Novice barebow bow division may shoot:

_JOAD Handbook 2011_: “The Indoor Qualification Rounds can also be shot at the JOAD target or the USA Archery target. For...Novice shooters, the JOAD target is the 60cm target and the USA Archery target is the 40cm ... outer 10 r “ § 3.1.3
_
JOAD Stars Pin Awards Program Rounds Sheet PDF_, Apr 16, 2012: 







*There is no “USA Archery” 40cm target the Rounds Sheet allows Novice archers to shoot.*

*What target is that bottom row for?*
It doesn't actually say. One might assume that given the outer and inner 10 that a 40cm “USA Archery” target is probably meant. But even if that is the case, only Olympic and Compound are allowed to shoot it. No Novice bow division for the bottom row. But who is supposed to shoot this bottom row? Neither the Handbook nor the Rounds Sheet say. Some JOAD leaders I've asked said, well, of course, that is for Junior and Senior JOAD archers, who normally shoot 40cm Olympic outer and Compound inner. Well, actually, you can't assume that, because the JOAD Stars Pin Qualification rounds do not follow normal JOAD conventions. There normally is no Novice Bow class. Cubs and Cadets do not normally shoot USA Archery 40cm targets. Indoor JOAD rounds are not normally only 30 arrows. Juniors do not normally shoot 20 meters outdoors, which they have to earn outdoor white. Age categories are not normally dumped, as they seemingly are without mentioning the fact, in the outdoor rounds. Etc. 

*Normal JOAD conventions cannot be assumed*
But even if we do assume that the bottom row is (Assumption 1) a 40cm “USA Archery Target” and (Assumption 2) for Juniors and Cadets, that still doesn't get us anywhere, because if Juniors and Cadets were required to shoot the bottom row (even though that is not a stated rule in the Handbook or the Rounds Sheet), they couldn't, because of the missing Blue Star pin and below. Pins have to be earned sequentially, and if Juniors and Cadets are limited to only shooting the bottom row no JOAD archer who started off as a Junior or Cadet could earn the the preceding pins required to earn the Red. 

*Who gets to shoot the middle row? *
The Handbook says the Olympic, Cub and Bowman or Novice can shoot it. But it doesn't say what Juniors or Cadets can shoot for qualification rounds. It might seem obvious to say, “well, the middle row target is the normal JOAD target for Cub and Bowmen, so it must be _just_ for the Cub, Bowman or Novices” (even though neither the Handbook nor the Rounds Sheet actually say that). But, that would just confirm that Juniors and Cadets who started as Juniors or Cadets can never earn Indoor pins because of the Missing pins since it would mean they couldn't shoot the middle row. And, as it turns out, any age can shoot the _top_ row, the 9 meter distance: “There is no age requirement for either distance [9 or 18 meters] for [Indoor] JOAD Qualification Rounds.” –§ 3.1.3 It would be really silly if Juniors and Cadets can shoot the top row (9 meters at a 60cm target) but not the middle row. And even if they do shoot the top row, they still can't earn their pins past white because the Black Star and Blue Star pins are only in the middle row. 

Here's what it would look like if we follow what is explicitly written in the rules (top row for everyone; Cubs, Bowman and Novice can shoot Middle Row), and add what superficially seem like reasonable JOAD assumptions, (Bottom row is 40 cm “USA Archery Target”; Junior and Cadet must shoot bottom row):










The JOAD Stars Pin Awards Program has some rules that are self contradictory and cannot be implemented. The issue is not immediately obvious because are split between the JOAD Stars Pin Rounds sheet, the JOAD Handbook Qualification rounds section and various presumed JOAD conventions, but when the rules are cross-indexed, information is sometimes incomplete, or even self contradictory.

And those are just some of the issues.

*
The JOAD Stars Pin Awards Need to be Fixed.*

The Stars Pin Awards Program is a key aspect of JOAD, and of the JOAD brand. Certain aspects of the current rules aren't merely questionable, a judgement call or a matter of personal preference, they are untenable. The problems with the rules are partially hidden by the lack of a clear and complete summary of the rules and rounds in one place where all the details should be: in the JOAD handbook. The current set of rules is vague, scattered and, if you look hard enough, self-contradictory. The rules have led JOAD some programs to declare the Stars Pin Program “flexible" and ignore the rules since they can't actually be implemented, which may have the consequence of teaching JOAD leaders, and their archers, that USA Archery and JOAD rules are incoherent and should be ignored or broken. That can't be a good thing for the leadership position of USA Archery or of JOAD.

I hope you and USA Archery will seek to fix these and all of the demonstrable problems in the JOAD rules . I think if you to try to compile a complete and exact list of the explicit Stars Pin Awards Rules from the Handbook and the Stars Pins Rounds Sheet—with no assumptions about what ought to be or seems to be reasonable but isn't actually written in the rules––you'll find serious issues with the rules and the ways they are documented––or, in too many cases, not documented. 

As an aside, I think people too familiar with JOAD may actually be at a disadvantage in reviewing the rules, being too close to them and too knowledgeable, unconsciously make assumptions and filling in blanks where no rules actually are,. The rules need to be explicit and clear to archers, non-archers and experienced and utterly neophyte JOAD leaders, not merely something that experienced JOAD leaders can work around.

Thanks


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Warbow, so here's what you do, in practice (okay, I know it's not as precise as you would prefer, but again...)

You as the JOAD club leader, decide how you're going to handle the inconsistencies, then go with it. 

We do this all the time. After all, it's our club.

Sure, we try to follow all the rules to the letter. That only sets a good example for the kids. But when faced with questions like yours above, myself and the other leaders in the club just make a decision and we move on. For the sake of the club, the kids and our own sanity.

Is there room for improvement? Sure there is. But don't throw the baby out with the bathwater. Sometimes you just do the best you can and not worry about situations that may never actually arise.

John


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## Warbow (Apr 18, 2006)

limbwalker said:


> Warbow, so here's what you do, in practice (okay, I know it's not as precise as you would prefer, but again...)
> 
> You as the JOAD club leader, decide how you're going to handle the inconsistencies, then go with it.
> 
> ...


You are right, of course John, about just doing what you need to do to make the program work. It is extremely pragmatic and part of what I respect about your views an suggestions. But it is a stop gap measure, not a long term solution for JOAD. And having to ignore the impossible rules goes to my point about the logically impossible rules breeding a disrespect for USA Archery and JOAD rules. I do think some club flexibility is a good thing, but we should be able to do so from a set of rules that at least make sense in the first place. And don't you think that this mess with the Stars Pins rules is perhaps indicative of the problems you've seen with JOAD management, where they are so busy with certain aspects of the business that they don't have time to take care of the details that clubs have to deal with day to day, from the rules for the pins to trying to make you pay extra to be in the waiting area to help your cubs at a tournament?

And, I don't think that much really needs to change. The rules the Outdoor section doesn't have the problems the indoor section does, though Beastmaster says people skip the 40--suggesting that JOAD clubs aren't setting up 40m qualification rounds. They don't have to change scores for the pins, or fix all the odd ball stuff, like the fact that Novice (barebow) has to shoot the same scores as FITA Recurve. All they have to do is eliminate the logical contradictions, like saying that Novice can shoot the 40cm in one place and saying they can't in the next.

I'm not sure what this baby you are worried might be thrown out is. Is there a particular flexibility and ambiguity the current vague and self contradictory rules let you have at this time that you want to preserve? If so, can you say what it is? Because actually lobbying for the rules to stay broken seems like a bad idea unless you have a specific thing you think will become *more* broken if the current system is fixed.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Warbow, in my experience with the NAA, and now USArchery, sometimes it is better to just do the work for them and interpret things as needed, than to try and fix all the problems that are out there. I'm afraid that's a never-ending battle. At least for now, and one I personally don't have the time or energy for.

John


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## Warbow (Apr 18, 2006)

limbwalker said:


> Warbow, in my experience with the NAA, and now USArchery, sometimes it is better to just do the work for them and interpret things as needed, than to try and fix all the problems that are out there. I'm afraid that's a never-ending battle. At least for now, and one I personally don't have the time or energy for.
> 
> John


Well, and I think the other threads show that for competitive JOADs like yours, there clearly are rules that really affect you more than the pins program--so you have a lot of potential battles to fight and you need to triage them. I can see why the pins thing is not a big deal for you. From your perspective, it isn't broken enough to worry about since you can easily work around it, unlike potentially obstructionist rules at state level and above tournaments. That makes sense for you and your program.

For me, we don't currently have a set up that lends its self to a competitive program. But we do do the pins. So those rules affect us (to the extent we let them) more than the new credentialed coach rules. In terms of letting things that are broken stay that way because it isn't a priority for most, I could have just ignored the messed up AAP scores, almost nobody in this form cares about them anyway, and let USA Archery continue to require barebow archers to break the STAR FITA by 34 points to earn the top pin, but it seemed like a better idea to get the scores fixed, again. I think the same is true for the STARS pins awards. But, I'm under no illusion that I'm likely to have much influence on USA Archery on this issue, but I think I will give it a shot. I do wonder what aspects of the program folks here absolutely don't want "fixed," though. What is baby, and what is bathwater? I like that the current boondoggle allows barebow indoors all the way up to Gold Olympian--perhaps by accident, perhaps on purpose in a very sloppy and careless way since barebow has to shoot the same scores as FITA recurve. I wouldn't want to see Novice restricted to the first 4 pins indoors as well as out. I would like to see more "Novice" barebow added to the outdoor distances.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

There is enough experience with enough individual coaches at several JOAD programs in the U.S. to fix this overnight. I'm just not conviced the organization is devoting enough resources to issues like these, and that's the real shame.

Personally, the JOAD program should mirror the formally recognized divisions in the WAF - Compound, Recurve AND Barebow. And should have seperate pins for each and seperate divisions at every competition for each. Why WAF recognizes barebow at the highest levels, and yet USArchery, through the JOAD program does not, is a mystery to me and many other JOAD coaches.

IMO, this is one of the very first things that needs to be fixed. And it can be done quickly and easily.

John


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## Warbow (Apr 18, 2006)

limbwalker said:


> There is enough experience with enough individual coaches at several JOAD programs in the U.S. to fix this overnight. I'm just not conviced the organization is devoting enough resources to issues like these, and that's the real shame.
> 
> Personally, the JOAD program should mirror the formally recognized divisions in the WAF - Compound, Recurve AND Barebow. And should have seperate pins for each and seperate divisions at every competition for each. Why WAF recognizes barebow at the highest levels, and yet USArchery, through the JOAD program does not, is a mystery to me and many other JOAD coaches.
> 
> ...


:thumbs_up


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