# Slow motion camera



## bigHUN (Feb 5, 2006)

This slow motion video shows the difference in arrow flight between the cable guard bow and the shoot through cables bow.
If you read German it is a plus...


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## sublauxation (Nov 21, 2013)

How much of the difference is caused by the cable guard bow being shot with a spring rest and fingers vs release and a blade with the shoot through?


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## caspian (Jan 13, 2009)

nice photography job, but unfortunately I agree that there's little point of comparison.


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## Mahly (Dec 18, 2002)

Observations: (Aside from the aforementioned fingers vs. release)
Lots of vertical movement in the arrows....more from the finger guy
NOT much horizontal movement in either arrow.
Here's a vid with less movement than either...what does that mean?
http://youtu.be/IKrwVQJebaY


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## Rick! (Aug 10, 2008)

bigHUN said:


> This slow motion video shows the difference in arrow flight between the cable guard bow and the shoot through cables bow.
> If you read German it is a plus...


Das Film werken am iPhone5 nicht.


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## aread (Dec 25, 2009)

If both bows are shot with the same rest and the same release, there should be no difference in arrow flight between a cable guard bow and a shoot through cable system.

On both bows, the arrow flight would be determined by how well the bows are tuned and whether the archer is imparting any torque during the shot. 

Shoot through cables just make it easier and faster to tune (a lot easier). There is no advantage for arrow flight or accuracy.

Allen


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

Beyond doubt the shoot through riser with shoot through cables is in a class of it's own. I think Hoyt is the only one to show that the stiffer shoot through riser gives a tad bit more of speed. They had the UltraTec and the UltraElite, and others, and with both bows identical the shoot through riser, all, had higher velocity given in the specs, about *8 fps faster. Shoot through cables came about in attempt to eliminate limb twist and cam lean, which it proved that it did. 

Great as the combination of shoot through risers and shoot through cables are, I can't remember anyone using one winning a National or World event. Maybe Martin way back when. Shoot through risers, yes, many have won. If accuracy with shoot through cables were to be a standout then I would think some one would be using such.

*Faster. The fastest UltraTec was the 2000 model, rated 316 fps using Master Cams, 314 fps with the single Red Line cam. Every UltraTec after never again obtained the speeds of the 2000. Only with the UltraElite and spiral cams was the speed equaled and surpassed.

The new owners of Martin are offering shoot through cables for 2015.


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## ron w (Jan 5, 2013)

there's a little more to it than that.
there is definitely a influence of torque from a cable guarded bow that moves the rest sideways (rotates the riser), as bow releases it's stored energy that doesn't exist with a shoot through rig. the key is that a shoot through riser, with out the shoot through rig, is just a differently designed riser, subject to all the same complications as a conventional side window riser with a cable guard.
it is the rig, with it's offset cable deflection for arrow and fletching clearance, that produces this influence and it is the rig of a shoot through rigged bow, whether the riser is of shoot through design or not, that eliminates the production of that torque that rotates the riser. 
the shoot through riser alone has some influence, in that there is less twist between upper and lower halves of the bow, and thus the alignment of the limbs as the bow is put under the stress of being drawn, but it is minimal, compared to the influence of twist from the loading of tension in the offset cable system , in a convention cable guarded bow. 
a shoot through rise will naturally be less sensitive to grip torque, simply because there is less inherent torque in the bow to begin with. that is the whole criteria behind shoot through technology. 
a consequence of that technology, is that without the inerrant torque in place, the bow is easier to tune , because the vectors of force, in a shoot through rig, are more oriented towards the direction the arrow flies, instead of being a bias between the sideways influence the cable guard produces as and the forward thrust on the arrow so producing good straight ahead flight is somewhat self generating by the design.


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## N7709K (Dec 17, 2008)

Where I get lost is in one system being "better" on paper, but not in practical applications....


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

N7709K said:


> Where I get lost is in one system being "better" on paper, but not in practical applications....


Well, all the pluses can be shown on paper, but it's all in the initial start (???) of sending a arrow down range. As is, whether shoot through riser or shoot through cables or combination of both you have [X]------->0. With a compound you have [X+ tweak]------>0. And of course if X manufacturer is pushing a shoot though anything they sure wouldn't acknowledge a non-shoot through anything equal to..... Hoyt sang praises of the UltraTec and Protec and added a little more "cream" when singing of their UltraElite and ProElite and Hoyt sold all four at a healthy level.


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## N7709K (Dec 17, 2008)

the "tweak" is only an issue if it varies.... and if it varies its going to be a minor issue. 

the benefits of a shoot-through riser i understand and those are tangible... shoot through cables are good on paper, but in reality they don't live up to what predicted (if you go off of the actual end results; not nock travel, torque, etc... but the actual results)


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

Mahly said:


> Observations: (Aside from the aforementioned fingers vs. release)
> Lots of vertical movement in the arrows....more from the finger guy
> NOT much horizontal movement in either arrow.
> Here's a vid with less movement than either...what does that mean?
> http://youtu.be/IKrwVQJebaY


1) GREAT nock travel control...near PERFECT

2) the k/l ratio for the arrow shaft material (axial compression and strength of materials) indicates that the draw weight was not enough to cause sinusoidal bending (STIFF arrow)


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

aread said:


> If both bows are shot with the same rest and the same release, there should be no difference in arrow flight between a cable guard bow and a shoot through cable system.
> 
> On both bows, the arrow flight would be determined by how well the bows are tuned and whether the archer is imparting any torque during the shot.
> 
> ...


No.

Sorry.
That is incorrect.

Your assumption is that the RISER is ROCK SOLID for torsion control.

THIs is the EXACT reason I built a shoot thru cable system for my Apex 7.

The Apex 7 riser TWISTS like a piece of TAFFY, when at full draw.



I wrapped the front of the arrow with PAPER for easier viewing.



At full draw, in a draw board,
and you can see that the riser is experiencing NEAR ZERO twist,
the arrow and the front stabilizer are both POINTING the same direction....when I have my Apex 7 rigged with SHOOT thru cables, and also swapped over to Hoyt Spiral Cams.

The riser no longer TWISTS at full draw, cuz of the shoot thru rigging.



The KEY is the SUPER DUPER long buss cable legs,
and converted to a SHOOT thru buss cable, cuz the SPLIT the bottom of the LONG YOKE legs is actually BELOW the string stopper
so I shoot THRU, in between the LONG yoke legs.

I used a block of wood as a custom spreader, just to get WEIRD looks from folks at the range, where I shoot.





BOTH super duper LONG buss cable legs are OUTSIDE the roller guard...
so this way,
I have ZERO twist reaction on the riser, when at FULL DRAW.

With my Apex 7 as a single cam bow,
with the BUSS cable center leg inside the ROLLER guard...

my Doinker Front stabilizer was moving SIDEWAYS 2-3 INCHES...

MASSIVE riser twist.

For a RISER That TWISTS a LOT...
the difference in the SHOOT THRU rigging
and the ROLLER guard rigging is NIGHT and DAY.

REsults of my Apex 7 with the SHOOT THRU rigging, and converted to SPIRAL cams.





Busted my Beiter nock at 20 yards.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

aread said:


> If both bows are shot with the same rest and the same release, there should be no difference in arrow flight between a cable guard bow and a shoot through cable system.
> 
> On both bows, the arrow flight would be determined by how well the bows are tuned and whether the archer is imparting any torque during the shot.
> 
> ...


NOW,
with a more RIGID riser design...

like my Maitland 2nd Gen ZEUS
THIS non-shoot thru riser
this Cable Guard design bow...

the RISER is SOOO RIGID,
that at full draw,
in a draw board,
I observed near ZERO sideways deflection on the end of my 32-inch Doinker Stabilizer
going from at rest to full draw.

So,
a shoot thru cable system for the Maitland Zeus 2nd Gen
would have little improvement.

Soooo,
the real answer
for SHOOT thru rigging
versus
standard cable guard rigging (cable slide)
versus
roller guard rigging (fixed rollers, rigid roller guard frame)

is it DEPENDS
on the torsional rigidity of the riser design.


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## EPLC (May 21, 2002)

I don't speak or read German but "9-9-9" as a test it was useless due to the fingers vs. release examples.


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

Mahly said:


> Observations: (Aside from the aforementioned fingers vs. release)
> Lots of vertical movement in the arrows....more from the finger guy
> NOT much horizontal movement in either arrow.
> Here's a vid with less movement than either...what does that mean?
> http://youtu.be/IKrwVQJebaY





nuts&bolts said:


> 1) GREAT nock travel control...near PERFECT
> 
> 2) the k/l ratio for the arrow shaft material (axial compression and strength of materials) indicates that the draw weight was not enough to cause sinusoidal bending (STIFF arrow)


Good nock travel or the above noted "less movement" (meant vertical?) is not derived from shoot through cables....Cam design, yes.


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

Freak bows?
My first ever modern compound to have string/arrow/pin alignment was a 2005 Bowtech Old Glory. Pretty thick riser. I ordered this bow new. The bow shot great and I never liked it.
My second to have the same all alignment was a 2006 Hoyt ProElite, shoot through riser. The ProElite was the only bow that a laser beamed top cam/string/arrow/pin all in alignment and at the time the bow was strung with new strings with static yoke - cam lean removed with bow at rest. The bow shot great, but no more accurate than any bow before or since.


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## ron w (Jan 5, 2013)

Merlin archery had a shoot through rig available for all of their bows. I had both a Max 2000 with and without shoot through rig and both, a Super Nova with and without shoot through rigs. both riser designs were standard conventional risers with open sided windows. with both bows, the shoot through rig tuned easier and shot better/more forgiving, less sensitive to grip torque. 
it only stands to reason, that the shoot through rig, with it's absence of an offset cable guard, will have less "working torque" than the same bow with a conventional rig, that has the cables trying to push the cable rod over as the cables are put under increasing tension from drawing the bow. whatever they do as you draw, they will do, in reverse more violently, as the bow suddenly releases it's stored energy. what we are doing as we tune a bow, is tuning out the effects of the offset cable guard. eliminate that, and you eliminate 90% of the reason we tune a bow.
the point is that despite the fact that we can compensate for that working torque through arrow spine, rest position and tuning the bow, the shoot through rig does not have any of what we need to tune out of the conventional bow's rig. if it doesn't exist in the first place, .....it doesn't need to be tuned out.... and that is just that much better.
produce a bow with little to no torsional distortion with a shoot through rig, and you have about the best you can possibly get. 
can anyone say OK DST ?.
what puzzles me is when I see someone with a Dominator or a Hoyt , or an OK, with their shoot through risers and no shoot through rig. it's a step forward and two steps back. the rig and it's absence of an offset cable rod, does more to clean up flight than the riser. 
I think it's only that we can understand the exclusiveness of a true center shot riser, but not understand the advantage of a shoot through rig, that we see this contradictory combination of shoot through riser and conventional offset cable rod rig, so often, when the rig is really the greater improvement in the scope of things.


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

ron, we'd have ask the Pros why they don't use shooting through cables. If shoot through cables had any advantage over the conventional guide rod cables I'd think the Pros would have them. They don't. Think we've been through this before. Until shoot through cables start winning they will not come fully to the public's attention.


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## bigHUN (Feb 5, 2006)

SonnyThomas said:


> ron, we'd have ask the Pros why they don't use shooting through cables. If shoot through cables had any advantage over the conventional guide rod cables I'd think the Pros would have them. They don't. Think we've been through this before. Until shoot through cables start winning they will not come fully to the public's attention.


C'mon Sonny we don't have to stress it further that the Pros shooting what they got paid for. 
This is a first sentence, the story goes way deeper. 
Why the X or Y or Z companies don't build this or that such a rig what would be a real lead in the industry? 
Because of heavy patents what surrounding the subject. 
And most likely the big NAME companies just don't want to pay royalties to some smaller "whatever NAME"...So they building whatever they build, and paying Pros to promote....
That paycheck most likely won't come soon from smaller Brands.... 
This is why you won't see Pros shooting such a bows or using accessories...
I had a situation last winter, approached a younger fella I saw him scoring extremely well, I offered him a sponsorship and what he sad? Not interested for a free bow, he want to shoot for Hoyt. 
And the bow I offered him was a OK Archery DST40 !!!!!!!!!!!!


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## bigHUN (Feb 5, 2006)

And this young boy wasn't even 16 yet but he "knew" he want to shoot for that Brand !!!


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## Mahly (Dec 18, 2002)

We've heard that rationale before, but I would think there is SOMEONE out there, not under contract that would want to use the added benefits of a shoot through system to start winning instead of placing... if they then get a contract with a bow company, they would then change back to cable guards if that's what his contract specified.
There are plenty of great archers out there that would do whatever it takes to win.
I think I'd rather win Vegas (no matter the bow) then have a contract for cheap bows. (Meaning a discount, not that most target bows are cheap)
When you win, contracts come your way.


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## Joe Schnur (Mar 22, 2012)

Folks I am going out on a limb here. Please don't cut the branch. I have shot several brands of bows attempting to address the discussion above most ignore the issue. Ok archery has addressed it your grip on the bow and form must factor in the strings on the bow hand side. Not a huge obstacle but a difference none the less. Barns dale narrower requires compromise on fletching clearance and string issue is there less but still there. Prime handles it entirely differently stiffest risers on the market. And flexible cable guard to reduce torque and riser flex to near zero. Hoyt has gone to an arc tech solution providing similar results. All of these solutions are compromises none are perfect each chooses what is most elegant solution results are what count. Now as for pro's I think that is the poorest measure of bow quality. I believe a great archer could tune and win with almost any top of the line bow as was proven by Dave cousins winning field tournaments internationally with a hunting bow. So the Indian can compensate for any bow as long as the bow is repeatable. 

Mp lease,explain how this logic is flawed


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

bigHUN said:


> C'mon Sonny we don't have to stress it further that the Pros shooting what they got paid for.
> 
> Already addressed. Some Pro who isn't being paid and a shoot through has the advantage they'd be using one.
> 
> ...


His loss. Placing and winning with a OK could have led to better and bigger things, like pay checks. I once turned down a Hoyt sponsor ship, but through a dealer. Problem was I'm allergic to short bows. The dealer wanted me to shoot the then new 2002 HavoTec. I already had a 2002 UltraTec. I never regretted turning him down.


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## aread (Dec 25, 2009)

nuts&bolts said:


> No.
> 
> Sorry.
> That is incorrect.
> ...



Alan,

No one here respects and likes you more than me, so please take this in the spirit of friendship.

I'm not sure what you are disagreeing with me about. We've previously agreed on how easy a shoot through cable is to tune. So I assume that you are saying that a shoot through can be tuned better than a cable guard bow or is more accurate. 

My experience indicates that it is that nearly all bows can be tuned for good arrow flight. It might take weeks for some bows and some archers may never achieve it, but in general a cable guard bow can be tuned for arrow flight equal to a shoot through bow. 

For accuracy, I question if a shoot through is as accurate as a cable guard bow. When Martin introduced the Fury X and the Nitrous X, GRIV, the Wilds & Jim Despart were shooting for Martin, yet I think only Jim switched to the shoot through. Whether it was because he played a big part in the development of the cam systems or not, I don't know. I doubt that any of them would pass on the chance to gain points simply by switching to a shoot through. 

With all due respect, there is no advantage to the shoot through cable systems other than ease of tuning. However, that can be a very big advantage.

Allen


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

Joe Schnur said:


> Folks I am going out on a limb here. Please don't cut the branch. I have shot several brands of bows attempting to address the discussion above most ignore the issue. Ok archery has addressed it your grip on the bow and form must factor in the strings on the bow hand side. Not a huge obstacle but a difference none the less. Barns dale narrower requires compromise on fletching clearance and string issue is there less but still there. Prime handles it entirely differently stiffest risers on the market. And flexible cable guard to reduce torque and riser flex to near zero. Hoyt has gone to an arc tech solution providing similar results. All of these solutions are compromises none are perfect each chooses what is most elegant solution results are what count. Now as for pro's I think that is the poorest measure of bow quality. I believe a great archer could tune and win with almost any top of the line bow as was proven by Dave cousins winning field tournaments internationally with a hunting bow. So the Indian can compensate for any bow as long as the bow is repeatable.
> 
> Mp lease,explain how this logic is flawed


Yes, the Indian can and does make the bow. And longer ata bows should be thrown in. The 2010 and 2011 Martin Shadowcats of 41 1/2" and 41 1/4" ata had offset guide rods that could be adjusted to give a less cable pull as wanted. I could shoot without the offset guide rod, just turn the arrow so the vanes cleared. I didn't though because I wanted to shoot any arrow with any vane I wanted. So I had the guide rod turned slightly on one SC and a bit more on the other SC for taller Blazers and Fusion vanes.

And as for today's "anti-lean" attempts, least we forget the offset guide rods of old. These rods flexed. Draw bow and the rod flexed so the cables near touched the arrow. Shoot, the guide rod flex back to original position. They worked on today's bows. I sold these old guide rods for more than what I could sell the bow they were on. Yep, every old bow in the back room has been robbed of these old guide rods. I kept one for myself and then this guy offers me too much and it went to Florida.... And no patents right here. Jennings, PSE, Fred Bear, Pearson, Golden Eagle, lay all the guide rods together and you couldn't tell what guide rod came from what bow.
Someone is manufacturing offset guide rods, See General Discussion. The price is quite a bit and they sell and the manufacturer is making more for other bows as the need calls for.
A person in the old Martin forums gave of making his own anti-torque rod out of stainless steel, bending it to mimic TroTec whatever. No violation of patent rights because it's a rod bent for the bow, no adjustments. Can't remember his name, shoots the world circuits for Hoyt. He had a standard Hoyt offset guide rod and bent to give even better results. I had one of these, a stainless steel Hoyt offset guide rod. It went on a target Alpine bow.


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## bigHUN (Feb 5, 2006)

:shade::shade:

The following is a quote from a footage:

"That are outtakes of a video for a TV mag. 
They asked us if we could prove that Rambo was really able to shoot and hit, I believe 6 arrows, in 40 seconds or so. Don't remember exactly. 
The camera was one of four in Europe with an extreme frame rate. 
Andreas is a former world champion 3D finger shooting with compound - and yes, Rambo is unreachable"


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

bigHUN said:


> :shade::shade:
> 
> The following is a quote from a footage:
> 
> ...


6 arrows in 40 seconds... If just flinging? Set target, no searching for the point zone? 

ASA DAIR Indoor target, timed event, 20 yards and Spotters allowed (another person using binoculars or spotting scope). Last end, 4 arrows in 1 minute. One arrow allowed per point zone, 14, 12, 10, 8. 11 is for NFAA or IBO. Lower line shoots lower 12. Upper line shoots upper 12. This has been cleaned plenty of times with a few seconds to spare, even using a hinge. So 5 arrows under 1 minute a reality. I used my ProElite several times, stick arrow through riser and pull arrow back to nock, long stab, Sure Loc sight frame. I've won and even shot high overall on this target.
I missed the white anywhere 8 once...release went off early :embara:


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

The above ASA DAIR Indoor target. Now, here's a indoor event I'd shoot. Loved it. ATer ratsodav was my spotter once. Two lines, you can take turns spotting for each other - spot good cause he's or she is going to be spotting for you. Shoot point zone in order you want, just can't shoot the same point zone twice. Spotters have to stay behind the Safety line. Get high profile with this event and even pulling and scoring of arrows has a time limit.


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