# Delamination advice please



## pgunning1 (Mar 19, 2009)

Hi Guys

I have recently returned to recurve archery after using compounds for a few years now, I just recently bought a 2nd hand Black Widow takedown from a USA ebay seller.

Received the other day, on the first day I strung the bow and the limb went crack !! and had split down the side of the bottom limb. I emailed Black Widow with pics of the damage who stated:

It looks like from the picture that the limb has delaminated. After delamination there really is no way to repair the limbs. 

After spending $370 on the bow what is the situation regarding a return, should the seller take the bow back, he says he has stored it correctly, but I have not even used the bow once. 

Black Widow no longer make the bow and say they I'll have to look for 2nd hand limbs if I wish to use the bow. 

Black Widow seem to be as rare as "hens teeth" so I stand little chance of getting spare limbs, do all takedowns use the same fitting for attaching the limbs or is there a make that will cross over.

Preferably I would like to start again, but can I ask for my money back on a delaminated bow.

Thanks in advance for any assistence.

ATB
Paul


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## Viper1 (Aug 21, 2003)

Paul - 

You're first letter should have been to the seller, providing that the bow failed on your FIRST attempt to use it. Legally, if the bow was sold "as is", the seller is not responsible, but in my experience with eBay, most sellers are more than willing to make things right. Yes, there are a few that aren't so ethical, it's still worth a shot. BTW - keep checking eBay, things do show up. BWs aren't "that" scarce. 

Viper1 out.


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## pgunning1 (Mar 19, 2009)

Thanks for the info Viper1,

I did contact the seller 1st who said that he would wait to see what Black Widow said. 

The bow was not sold as is, and a 7 day guarantee was with the item. I guess its my good nature that makes me feel bad as it split in my possession, just pleased I was not drawing the bow at the time.

I'll ask the seller if we can come to an agreement on a return of the bow, and a partial / full refund. If anyone knows of a spare lower limb for a Black widow take down specs as follows:

Bow #4153, model HF 64” 55# @ 32” draw originally shipped December 12, 1984.

Thanks for any thoughts or advice.

ATB
Paul


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## Viper1 (Aug 21, 2003)

Paul - 

Sounds like you'll be fine and you are dealing with a good eBayer. However (guess you already know this) you DON'T want a "lower" limb, you really need a matched set to fit that riser. Good thing about BW, is that they do keep records, so if you decide to keep the riser, if/when you do find another pair of limbs, BW can confirm their compatability. 

If you'd like my opinion, unless you're in love with that particular riser, return it to the seller and just look for a new bow. 

In my experience, while do-do happens, it's pretty rare and most people are pretty decent. 

Viper1 out.


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## CLASSICHUNTER (May 20, 2005)

*questions*

First off how did you string your bow what method .. leg around riser method or some other...???????????


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## pgunning1 (Mar 19, 2009)

I have a recurve "bow stringer" I think they are called, its quite old but functional, one end slips over the end of bow limb with the string in place, the other has a v shape that the string runs through, this end has a rubber type grip on it, foot is placed on the stringer and the bow is pulled up, the string is put over the end where the v shape is as the bow is being pulled back. 

I think the bow takes more pressure as one side as its flexed slightly more than the other, but this has been the same with all my bows going back 30 years to my beginnings in recurve archery.

It sounded when it cracked, like a dry stick cracking, in fact I thought I had stepped on a stick where I had my foot on the stringer, never had a bow split before. Would a "good" bow sound or do this when it cracks.

I know nothing as to how the wood should look if delaminated, I am only going on what the makers of the bow state. 

Having not bought a recurve for over 25 years I do not know the policy (if there is one) on a delaminated bow once sold, I looked ok when I got it but I did not check every detail of the bow, which maybe I should have done ??

I am not blaming the seller as I'm sure he did not know either, but my thoughts are would/is it reasonable to request a partial or full refund for this type of incident is there a precedent.

Thank you for your assistance.

Paul


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## Viper1 (Aug 21, 2003)

Paul -

Don't sweat the stinging part. All the friction block stringers stress the lower limb more than the upper - no biggie. Even stringing it around your leg shouldn't cause a delamination. If it did, the bow was going to fail shortly anyway. Typical reasons for a delam are a dry glue joint (usually happens on relatively new bows) or prolonged exposure to a heat source, like leaving the bow standing next to a radiator. 

Best you or the seller can do is give it a good visual inpsection, paying close attention to the glue lines and looking for limb twist. While the latter isn't a show stopper, it may indicate some "abuse". 

If the seller offered a money back option, then both you and he should be fine with that. If the item was listed "as it", then you both have to be fine with that too. Anyway you look at it, eBay is a blind auction so there are always risks to both the buyer and the ethical seller. Just goes with the territory. Also, remember that feedback counts, since he's making good on it, that's a plus and should be noted.

Viper1 out.


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## Ratdog68 (Feb 22, 2009)

*Good question....*

I'm in the same boat as you. I bought a bow off eBay recently. I made a string for it and exercised the limbs a bit as I prepped to string it for the first time and it delaminated on me. Yup... sound was as you describe. I too used a bow stringer. Do I feel bad about it? Yup... am I pursuing a refund? No, it's about a 50yr old bow. Ya win some, ya lose some.


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## MarkinMissouri (Apr 13, 2009)

I have had pretty good luck with ebay (knock on wood. No pun intended) and have also had luck talking with guys that shoot traditional at 3D shoots. Most have collections and will part with a bow. Nice thing is it is not blind sale. You can shoot the bow before you buy. Down side is that you usually pay more of a premium since the owner isn't usually a "motivated" seller.

I agree that you shouldn't be reluctant to send the bow back. Feedback is very important on Ebay. The seller has a vested interest in keeping you happy. Can the seller offer a comparable bow or are you set on Black Widow?


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## pgunning1 (Mar 19, 2009)

No I'm not set on a Black Widow it was a nice looking bow and had good reports, it cost me $360 + post so I guess for a Black widow it was a good price (only if it hadn't split) 

Still awaiting a reply from the seller, which I am sure will come. I am in the process of joining a UK club and getting insurance at the moment. They are very good there but TBH I had my fill of clubs in the 80's when I use to shoot .22 rifle for the Junior Nat Squad. So I know like my own space shall we say when shooting, but I need nocks, peeps & other bits so I go there to chat and by bits and pieces, but point taken on trying the item before hand.

Mind you I think i'd feel even worse if I had broken someone's bow in front of them !!

ATB
Paul


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## mrgq4126 (Jun 6, 2010)

I recently received a bow I bought off ebay with the same thing. It is a 25th anniversary Black Widow take down MA. Shipped the limbs to BW and they determined that they can do nothing for me. I am going to try self repair. It would be my guess that the company does not want to take responsability if the limbs were to break again. I received some infromation from an old timer in the recurve industry. The guy told me that because of the new age of compounds glue was being bought up at the time. He stated that good quality glue at the time late 70's early 80's was hard to come by hence delaminating. If anyone knows of a matching set of Autumn Oak MA limbs for a reasonable price I would be interested. Let me know via E mail for I do not get on here much. [email protected]


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## WindWalker (Jan 23, 2005)

As a former eBay seller and still a buyer, I suggest you re-read the seller's stipulated warranty/guarantee and look for conditions of warranty/guarantee elsewhere in the seller's ad.

If the seller indicated he/she warranted the bow against any type of failure or you finding flaws within the 7-day period, and the seller did not set any conditions such as "wait and see what Black Widow says," or that the bow must be inspected by him/her or any other party to determine what may have caused the failure, you are being too nice of a buyer. 

If the seller did not set any specific conditions of warranty, you email the seller and tell him/her that you want your money back, no, ifs, ands, or buts, or you will file a complaint with eBay. If the seller is a longtime eBay seller, he/she will not want to lose their selling status (banned). If the seller is new and/or has only sold items a few times, the seller probably won't care about being banned.

_*However, and it's a big HOWEVER*_; if you simply read the ad "Return" policy and it stated "7 day money back or return," that stipulation alone is not an indicator of warranty for failure or discovery of flaws. It's an eBay formatted specification and the seller may have mistakenly checked the block in the ad format, or may have intentionally done so, meaning that if the buyer has any complaints or the product is not as described, the buyer has 7 days to contact the seller to _TRY_ and return the item and have their money returned and that if the seller agrees, he/she will return your money, not give credit or replace the item with a different item.

What you need to look for is what was stipulated by the seller in the body of the ad and/or what the seller indicated in how he/she preferred to by paid. If the seller stated _"As is, no returns, seller does not warranty item, no money back, etc,"_ the seller is off the hook and does not have to return your money or replace the item. If the seller is considering returning your money, or part of your money, he/she probably has a good a good "feedback" rating and is concerned you will give a "negative" feedback.

What model of Black Widow did you purchase? What's the description?


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## rraming (Aug 5, 2006)

the fun of ebay, hopefully it's not a one piece - if it's a take down, you got a riser, not a bad price either, just get new limbs, there are several for sale in the classifieds on this and other archery forums, usually just higher lbs than you want to shoot


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