# Wood bow failure



## MGF (Oct 27, 2012)

Let's talk about breaking bows.

A bow is essentially a spring and no spring lasts forever. The specific failure mode may differ depending on use and material but cycle it enough times and it will fail.

The hickory board bow I built that I was so pleased with broke a week or so ago. It was backed with a single layer of cotton cloth which probably isn't very substantial. The break was at a run-off. It just lifted up. Actually, while it lifted and was clearly "toast", it didn't break completely. All that said, I shot the heck out of it for about three months which was thousands of arrows.

I'm finishing up another board bow because I already had it started but this board isn't as good as the last one. I went all over the place and bought the best one I could find but there are plenty of reasons for it to fail. I backed this one with several layers of real fiberglass tape. I can tear the cotton cloth I used on the first bow but I can't hurt this stuff.

I guess I'm not even really sure what question to ask here. I know that how well it holds up depends on a lot of things like the wood, the design, how well it's tillered and so on. I guess I'd be interested in hearing about somebody else's experience with wood bow failures.

That said, I do want to get to making some bows from staves with a continuous ring for the back of a bow...but those can fail too, right?


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## George D. Stout (May 11, 2005)

Everything man made has a life span, some longer than others. I have a York lemonwood longbow, made in the mid 1940's. It is backed with what appears to be clarified calfskin (drum head material). This bow has been shot steadily since I got it in 1989. It even went on a seven year trip to many states and Canada being used by different users. I did have a lift on the back of the upper limb and repaired it...then wrapped with dacron and glue. It still shoots. You may get another one just like it and it will break after a few dozen arrows. One thing about wood bows is they seem to have a mind of their own, and of course..each one is a little different. Keep on---keepin' on.


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## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

MGF...let me preface this by saying I mean no disrespect whatsoever to anyone who chooses to make a hobby of boardbows...that said?...

I own an excellent selfbow handcrafted by Brad Heggeseth of South Dakota....it's of a holmegaard/mollegabit lever-bow design and made from an outer-ring stave of American Elm in such a way that the bows grain bends in the same grainular directions the natural tree bent with the wind as it grew and not drawing against/cross grain such as a board bow does...I am the 3rd owner of this bow and it still shoots strong...real strong...with no signs of fatigue or failure.

My concern for you is this...I know you had failures of not just one but a couple of store bought entry level bows...now you have turned to crafting board bows...and to me?...board bows are basically built to break from day one and nothing more than good practice for the wannabe bowyer or hobbiest archer...but for the archer looking to shoot?...to me?...represent nothing more than disappointment and discouragement.

In the past two years I've owned a slew of mid-high range one piece wood/glass bows and none of them have failed...and I've shot the dickens out of them all and get this...my last name is in fact "Jinks"! :laugh:

That said?...I custom ordered this Falco Force Carbon of mine for two reasons...one is....the first one I bought used?...was a dandy...extremely well made and relatively inexpensive...which caused me to research the company and as it turns out?...Falco started building bows 25 years ago getting their start in the corner of a Cross-Country Ski Manufacturing Facility....where one might obviously suspect they already knew a boatload about "Strong (Extremely Resilient) Laminating Processes"...I got to spec out length, poundage and choose from 8 different longbow model/grips and a plethora of select exotic hardwoods choosing a wnge riser with cocobolo accents and ebony limb laminations...3 months from Estonia...$455 for the bow and $80 shipping as $535 total got me their Flagship Contender string and all.

I know you've been through a lot of failing bows...ranging from a couple bottom shelf screw jobs to busting your butt making board bows that break in a weeks worth of shooting...and speaking to you as if I were your brother?...

*STOP IT!*

Call Kegan...Email/Shop Falco...whatever...but get yourself something decent and quit screwing around with scrap from the lumber yard!

Cause I want to see you enjoy archery...the shooting part of it...without suffering through "Bow Failure After Bow Failure"...and save the hobby BS for making yourself a fine set of woodies...with some carbon backups! :laugh:

Just don't wanna see ya get any more discouraged than I already would be and take up bowling or something. 

Best of Luck and L8R, Bill. :cool2:


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## guyver (Jan 3, 2012)

MGF-

Bow failure is very common, especially early attempts. In regards to cloth backing, it doesn't do any working IMO it's more like a fail safe than anything, it won't keep a splinter from happening but it may keep the bow from exploding.

Try to find out what properties a type of wood has and design around it. Below is a red oak board designed to relieve stress on the belly (wide red one) its very round on the back and flat on the belly and has no backing









Personally I wouldn't mess with glass, making hot boxes forms etc. I prefer slightly more primitive bows. 

Don't get discouraged about failures, just learn from them, try to figure what went wrong.

If you like board bows, look into bamboo as backing, bamboo is excellent material for backing, no run offs or grain to worry about, $4-8 for a 6-8' slat.

I've also just tried my first hickory veneer backing and couldn't be more please with it. Saved a bow from going in the trash, I had a knot on the back that had a horizontal split and the paper thin hickory veneer made it a non issue









Just keep building and learning.


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## guyver (Jan 3, 2012)

Jinx- have you ever shot a board bow? Or made a bow?

Don't mean to attack you but I think you may be misinformed.

Of the bows I've built, the only failures have come during the building process (so far).

Board bows can out perform selfbows, yes, even with cross grain. This is due to them being typically more square is cross section. Some guys will even have boards made from trees (instead of splitting standard staves), nets more bows and will perform the same if not better.


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## CFGuy (Sep 14, 2012)

Keep at it MGF! Don't give up because a member on here tells you to. Just don't buy PSE anymore .


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## Sanford (Jan 26, 2009)

Jinks, sometimes you come up with some doozies. Non-backed selfbows are grain orientation dependent, whereas laminate wood bows are not so much and have way more leeway, not to mention the marrying of desirable properties. Bowyers figured this out centuries before lumber yards were invented, and, wood is still wood. Also, trees bend in all directions of the wind. Trees are round, so not all grain is always bending in the same direction, heck, some of it has to be bending backwards in grain if some is bending into the grain.

If you have some experience on failure rates of your selfbows to your backed bows of different grain orientation, like to hear your personal experiences in numbers.


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## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

guyver said:


> Jinx- have you ever shot a board bow? Or made a bow?
> 
> Don't mean to attack you but I think you may be misinformed.
> 
> ...


Let me repeat...

*"...let me preface this by saying I mean no disrespect whatsoever to anyone who chooses to make a hobby of boardbows.."*

That said?...no...I've never shot a board bow nor would I...because for one?...I would never bother owning one and for two I would not risk breaking some one else's by shooting it...nor will I ever bother making a bow...I do archery for the fun of shooting...not the work of building.

And that said?...my last years in vocational class high school was "Carpentry"....4 years of it...where each year our class built a house (cabinets, doors and all) and auctioned it off the end of every year....and while I buy that board bows can preform very close..maybe even spot-on...to the same as a staved bow?...(after all springs are springs and pounds are pounds)...no one will ever convince me that a board bow "can perform better" unless something is seriously amiss with the stave bow it's being compared too...and never even close to as sweet shooting, resilient or durable as an outer ring stave selfbow...ever.

IMHO?....Cutting through growth rings to fashion a bow is never a great idea...it's practice at fashioning bows...period.

Can some great shooters come out of it after years of experience?...yep...but I wouldn't take one for free...just me...then again?...I don't even like the fact that if I'm taking an hour lunch break?...I should un-brace my self bow to preserve it from "taking a set".

They are some nice looking boards you got there guyver and you have every reason to be proud of them...but I'm drawing the line at "Preforms Better Than an Outer Ring Stave"....
ain't buying it.


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## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

Sanford said:


> Jinks, sometimes you come up with some doozies. Non-backed selfbows are grain orientation dependent, whereas laminate wood bows are not so much and have way more leeway, not to mention the marrying of desirable properties. Bowyers figured this out centuries before lumber yards were invented, and, wood is still wood. Also, trees bend in all directions of the wind. Trees are round, so not all grain is always bending in the same direction, heck, some of it has to be bending backwards in grain if some is bending into the grain.
> 
> If you have some experience on failure rates of your selfbows to your backed bows of different grain orientation, like to hear your personal experiences in numbers.


Sanford...if we were sitting in a steakhouse?....would I hafta be a butcher to know that sirloins tougher than fillet?..c'mon man...the thread is about "Wood Bows Failing"...and now suddenly...somehow....cutting through growth rings makes a board bow better somehow?

yea!....I got the pot stirred. :laugh:


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## MGF (Oct 27, 2012)

Hey guys, no offense taken. Some people like to make their own stuff and other's don't. I make my own knives to even though you can buy a perfectly functional cutting tool for just a few bucks. But, I'm more of a blacksmith/bladesmith and new to working wood and, for sure, new to bow building. So I come here to see what more experienced folks have to say on the subject.

I did have a couple of store bought bows fail but I also have store bought bows that I bought many years ago and they still shoot. Failures of store bought bows are not what drove me to try my hand at bow making.

Jinks, if you ask me, shooting a nice group with a bow you made with your own two hand is a special kind of thrill.


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## MGF (Oct 27, 2012)

George D. Stout said:


> Everything man made has a life span, some longer than others. I have a York lemonwood longbow, made in the mid 1940's. It is backed with what appears to be clarified calfskin (drum head material). This bow has been shot steadily since I got it in 1989. It even went on a seven year trip to many states and Canada being used by different users. I did have a lift on the back of the upper limb and repaired it...then wrapped with dacron and glue. It still shoots. You may get another one just like it and it will break after a few dozen arrows. One thing about wood bows is they seem to have a mind of their own, and of course..each one is a little different. Keep on---keepin' on.


I left it laying out in the yard after it broke but, it was just a "lift". Maybe I should probably patch it up and see what happens.


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## guyver (Jan 3, 2012)

Jinx your willful ignorance is laughable.

High school woodshop has almost nothing to do with building bows.

Have you chronographed that elm bow?

I challenge you to build a bow that can be drawn to your draw length and shoot a doz arrows from that draw length, then I'd be willing to hear your opinion on bow design

MGF-

Seek knowledge and improve your skill.

Don't just give up or listen to naysayers.

If you got thousands of shots out of your fist bow, that's impressive and I'd be pleased if half the bows I worked out last that long.

I wouldn't take advice from someone with little to no experience


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## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

MGF said:


> Hey guys, no offense taken. Some people like to make their own stuff and other's don't. I make my own knives to even though you can buy a perfectly functional cutting tool for just a few bucks. But, I'm more of a blacksmith/bladesmith and new to working wood and, for sure, new to bow building. So I come here to see what more experienced folks have to say on the subject.
> 
> I did have a couple of store bought bows fail but I also have store bought bows that I bought many years ago and they still shoot. Failures of store bought bows are not what drove me to try my hand at bow making.
> 
> *Jinks, if you ask me, shooting a nice group with a bow you made with your own two hand is a special kind of thrill.*


Fully understand...the reward being a great sense of accomplishment....just know you've been struggling with breakage issues (and not just with your own crafted bows)...wasn't aware you had other bows to shoot...rock on and L8R, Bill.


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

refreshing to see that inaccurate stuff is not being given a free pass as much as it used to in this forum


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## Sanford (Jan 26, 2009)

JINKSTER said:


> Sanford...if we were sitting in a steakhouse?....would I hafta be a butcher to know that sirloins tougher than fillet?..c'mon man...the thread is about "Wood Bows Failing"...and now suddenly...somehow....cutting through growth rings makes a board bow better somehow?
> 
> yea!....I got the pot stirred. :laugh:



Again, selfbows are growth ring "dependent". That is not to be taken as growth ring "superior" to a laminate backed bow. Matter fact, selfbows are inferior to what can be done with varying properties of woods together according to the evolutionary progress in bow building. IOW, my board bows are an improvement on your selfbow design, not a lesser bow. Now, if you want to discuss properties of different woods - like performance, longevity, set, etc.... then knowing the difference between hamburger and sirloin, or even chopped sirloin, matters more to the maker.


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## Eriks (Nov 8, 2011)

There was a wooden riser that blew up right next to me at Darrington this year. Scared the crap our of our whole group. Snapped clean in two.


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## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

Sanford said:


> Again, selfbows are growth ring "dependent". That is not to be taken as growth ring "superior" to a laminate backed bow. Matter fact, selfbows are inferior to what can be done with varying properties of woods together according to the evolutionary progress in bow building. IOW, my board bows are an improvement on your selfbow design, not a lesser bow. Now, if you want to discuss wood properties of different woods - like performance, longevity, set, etc.... then knowing the difference between hamburger and sirloin, or even chopped sirloin, matters.


Yea...Sanford...look man...I was just feeling bad for MGF as I know he's suffered a lot of recent bow breakages...both store bought and his own works here....also?...didn't intend on getting into a pi$$ing match and had hoped to avoid such with...

*"...let me preface this by saying I mean no disrespect whatsoever to anyone who chooses to make a hobby of boardbows.."*


and for a minute there?...was also entertaining the idea of sending MGF my primitive holmegaard self bow for the cost of shipping just so the dude could have a freaking bow to shoot...also?...I wasn't talking or thinking "Laminated" or "Backed" board bows...seemed like it was all the rage the past couple months of folks just carving a board bow out of a plank of redwood or whatever...no backing or laminating...but I still ain't buying that a board bow is superior to a professionally crafted outer ring stave self bow....unless of course it is in fact backed and/or laminated with bamboo or such.

And I've made no claims other than my own personal opinions regarding board bows...I want nothing to do with them...yet others feel compelled to school me on the topic?...seriously?


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## kegan (Aug 28, 2006)

Jinks, I appreciate the shout out, but I'm going to have to completely disagree about the board bows vs. "natural staves".

It's all about design and care in the grain. If you haven't tried a D bow, I highly recommend one. I know they're "super primitive" but I think with your shooting skill you'd get a hoot out of one. Quick, simple, and very reliable when done right, they offer lots of fun and no real problems.

Can you post some photos of your recent bows?


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## Sanford (Jan 26, 2009)

Jinks, I think Kegan started that board bow thread for fun and to help folks understand and better appreciate the nature of wooden bows. Any trad archer should seek to have such understanding at some point in my book. That's partly why I think that building of the "virtual bow" chapter in Tony's book is so relevant to the learning process and incorporated just for such reason. Anyone building bows, starting out or trying some unproven design, is going to break bows, board, glass, whatever. Dimensional cut boards for bow material has nothing to do with it, proper build does. The question at hand was about the longevity of wood.


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## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

kegan said:


> Jinks, I appreciate the shout out, but I'm going to have to completely disagree about the board bows vs. "natural staves".
> 
> It's all about design and care in the grain. If you haven't tried a D bow, I highly recommend one. I know they're "super primitive" but I think with your shooting skill you'd get a hoot out of one. Quick, simple, and very reliable when done right, they offer lots of fun and no real problems.
> 
> Can you post some photos of your recent bows?


Kegan...I have a total of 5 bows (not including two pse optimas and a kiddy bow I bought years ago for my daughters)...but first?...here's a vid of my 42# @ 28" Holmegaard American Elm Self Bow...






then I have my 64"/37# Bear SuperK...










my 64"/37# Bushmen American Native RD Longbow...










then this oly risered 28# form/practice/target rig I put together about a month ago...










and then this Falco Force Carbon D-Longbow I ordered 3-4 months ago that just arrived last week...










all I got.


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## CFGuy (Sep 14, 2012)

Bill, did you sell the other Falcos?


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## GPW (May 12, 2012)

We’ve built hundreds of wood bows , some from CAREFULLY selected boards , some from Carefully selected/harvested trees... Early efforts were predictably disastrous, later bows survived fine ... Good Wood + Good bowyer skills = Good bows ... There’s a LOT more to making a good wood bow than just carving out something that looks like a bow ... The trick is to “read” the wood , and find out what kind of bow it wants to be ... each piece of wood is different , even in the same species , and even in the same tree... That’s the knowledge and the skill ...!!!!


Fiberglass is such an excellent material for Modern bows , it does all the work and the core becomes much less important ... Now , they’re even using Foam cores ....


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## kegan (Aug 28, 2006)

Jinks, I'm sorry- the second half of my post was for MGF. I know he's been a fan of simple bows lately, where shooting is more about where the arrows go than anything. I think a D bow would fit him pretty well at this point.


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## MGF (Oct 27, 2012)

kegan said:


> Jinks, I'm sorry- the second half of my post was for MGF. I know he's been a fan of simple bows lately, where shooting is more about where the arrows go than anything. I think a D bow would fit him pretty well at this point.


I'd like to try a D bow. Can you make some design suggestions?

I just finished an oak bow (I just have to get a clear coat on it) and I'll get some pictures of that one posted later this morning. I shot it some over a couple of days while I worked on the sanding. So far, so good.

This is the hickory bow that just came apart.


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## kegan (Aug 28, 2006)

I'm a fan of a basic Eastern Woodland style:

65-69" over all (nocks 1/2" from the ends)

1 1/4" wide from mid limb to mid limb tapering to 3/8" wide tips (for a 35-50# bow, depending on wood density)

5/8" thick in the middle 4" tapering straight to 3/8" thick tips

When I temper mine, I rarely temper in more than 1" reflex, and prefer it when they stand straight or just a hair of string follow. There's no cut in shelf (leather or cork wedge glued on works great though) and they're not the fastest with tips that wide, but it's a really easy bow to make, it's tough, and takes a lot of abuse. My brother made his first board bow in this style, just a tad wider, and the board was very dense so it came in at 60# and lasted a very long time. I think it only broke because we tried re-working it and adding a handle. Terrible idea:lol:.

If I were to deviate from that basic design to get a bit more speed, I would leave the outer 12" of the limbs thicker, and narrow the tips in an Eiffel tower shape to 5/16" or less and just tiller it for a more inner to mid limb bend with it a tad stiffer in the center.


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## MGF (Oct 27, 2012)

Here's the oak bow I'm finishing now.


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## MGF (Oct 27, 2012)

kegan said:


> I'm a fan of a basic Eastern Woodland style:
> 
> 65-69" over all (nocks 1/2" from the ends)
> 
> ...


This is for a bow with no handle glued on and no shelf cut in, correct?


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## kegan (Aug 28, 2006)

That's right. Takes an hour or two to make one with hand tools from board to final sanding for finish.


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## MGF (Oct 27, 2012)

kegan said:


> That's right. Takes an hour or two to make one with hand tools from board to final sanding for finish.


Do you back your board D-bows?

I see some board bows posted that aren't backed but I haven't found any boards that I'd trust.


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## kegan (Aug 28, 2006)

I haven't backed a board D bow in a while. As long as the grain on the flat side is straight, I just use it as is.


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## BarneySlayer (Feb 28, 2009)

Eriks said:


> There was a wooden riser that blew up right next to me at Darrington this year. Scared the crap our of our whole group. Snapped clean in two.


At full draw, or during the shot. Not that it really matters, but my imagination wants to know!


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## MGF (Oct 27, 2012)

Well, I got the finish on the new bow and spent some time shooting it last night. I've only put a few dozen arrows across it but it's looking good so far...though I had some doubts about this piece of wood from the start.

I stopped in a Menards on the way home and looked through their hard wood. I was surprised they had maple, hickory, oak and other stuff. I only looked through the 6 ft pieces because it'll fit in the cab. I cut my hand at work and and didn't feel like messing around strapping anything down on the ladder rack. 

Anyway, I found what looks like a real nice 1" X 2" X 6' piece of oak. It's about the best board I've found yet so I think I'll give a D-bow a try.


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## kegan (Aug 28, 2006)

MGF, I think that if you can accept the feel of the bow bending in your hand and having to shoot a bow that far from center shot, you'll really be impressed. They're easy to make and very durable, but the simplicity gives up nothing in terms of performance. They are the single most successful hunting bow design in history- how's that for tradition?


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## Eriks (Nov 8, 2011)

BarneySlayer said:


> At full draw, or during the shot. Not that it really matters, but my imagination wants to know!


During the shot. The arrow hit the bale (70 yards away). We're guessing it was the post shot vibration that killed it. I was spotting for him so I was looking downrange through hte binocs when it happened.


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## MGF (Oct 27, 2012)

kegan said:


> MGF, I think that if you can accept the feel of the bow bending in your hand and having to shoot a bow that far from center shot, you'll really be impressed. They're easy to make and very durable, but the simplicity gives up nothing in terms of performance. They are the single most successful hunting bow design in history- how's that for tradition?


I'm kind of anxious to see what kind of arrows I'll need to match to it. The furthest off center I've shot is...maybe 3/8.

I don't think the bending in the hand will bother me but it's always nice to be able to shoot arrows you already own. LOL


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## MI_Darton (Aug 8, 2005)

I just finished up making a hickory self bow....the mere thought of it breaking sends chills down my spine. LOL I think I have a crush on it.


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## kegan (Aug 28, 2006)

Just get some heavier points


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## MGF (Oct 27, 2012)

MI_Darton said:


> I just finished up making a hickory self bow....the mere thought of it breaking sends chills down my spine. LOL I think I have a crush on it.


I'm new to bow building but I make blades. I ruined a lot of pieces of steel that could have been knives. Some of those pieces of steel that I ruined were pattern welded billets that I spend days in front of a hot forge making.

I have a large scrap pile already. LOL


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## MGF (Oct 27, 2012)

I got my D-bow pretty much floor tillered but I saw some things in the wood that I didn't see in the store so I decided to back it. I didn't get that done until last night so I lose a day to letting the glue dry.

With any luck, I'll get it on the tillering board tomorrow and turn it into a bow.

I did learn an important lesson about bow making while working on this bow. In regard to work efficiency, it's always important to reduce the number of steps (walking). I found that the work goes pretty well sitting out under a shade tree with tools and wood but a cold beer goes well with this work. There were way too many steps involved in running back and forth to the fridge. A cooler placed right next to my chair greatly improved work efficiency.


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