# Shooting to the right



## merlinron (Mar 23, 2020)

generally, hitting right,... if you are a right handed shooter and if you know your sights and bow are set up correctly,... is from collapsing on the shot (not pulling aggressively, All THE WAY through the shot). this is especially applicable to Olympic style recurve shooting as compared to compound shooting.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

Jan Ziak said:


> I'd like to ask for help with my longterm, yet unresolved issue. And that is "shooting to the right". I am RH archer, I've been shooting for six years, a year ago started olympic recurve, before barebow only.
> I struggle with shots to the right, when I increase volume of training(5 days a week), it appears after few days of shooting in row. It happened with barebow and it is happening also with olympic recurve. After couple of days off, shots are again centered. However, after a day or more days of shooting in row, shots shift to the right. I need to adjust even sight to the right more and more. Sometimes hits are high right and even quite good grouping. Later, also grouping is bad and I even miss target boss to the right. I assume that this is happening in my front arm. Sometimes I feel it like a micro collapse at the moment of release, that is probably causing it. I also feel a weakness in particular spot at the back of my front arm, very close to the armpit. However, I cannot cope with it. I understand it is related to the shooting style. I suspected it was bad alignment, causing fatigue in my front arm. However, I couldn't get rid of the problem with any alignment.
> Perhaps somebody else came across similar issue in the past or was helping somebody with it. Thank you very much for any response, Jan.


Need a photo of you at full draw and anchor, but the photographer needs to be on a ladder, and the camera lens pointed straight down on top of your head.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

Jan Ziak said:


> I'd like to ask for help with my longterm, yet unresolved issue. And that is "shooting to the right". I am RH archer, I've been shooting for six years, a year ago started olympic recurve, before barebow only.
> I struggle with shots to the right, when I increase volume of training(5 days a week), it appears after few days of shooting in row. It happened with barebow and it is happening also with olympic recurve. After couple of days off, shots are again centered. However, after a day or more days of shooting in row, shots shift to the right. I need to adjust even sight to the right more and more. Sometimes hits are high right and even quite good grouping. Later, also grouping is bad and I even miss target boss to the right. I assume that this is happening in my front arm. Sometimes I feel it like a micro collapse at the moment of release, that is probably causing it. I also feel a weakness in particular spot at the back of my front arm, very close to the armpit. However, I cannot cope with it. I understand it is related to the shooting style. I suspected it was bad alignment, causing fatigue in my front arm. However, I couldn't get rid of the problem with any alignment.
> Perhaps somebody else came across similar issue in the past or was helping somebody with it. Thank you very much for any response, Jan.


Each day of training, start the session by firing three fletched and at least two bareshafts. 18 meters. Take a photo. End of Day 1 training.
Finish that day of training, with a group of three fletched and at LEAST two bareshafts. 18 meters. Take a photo. End of Day 1 training. Two photos.

Then, on Day 2 of training, two photos again (start and end of training).
Then, on Day 3 of training, two photos at start and end of training.
Then, on Day 4 of training, two photos.
Then, on Day 5 of training, two photos. Total of ten photos.

So, if you can take photos of you at full draw, with the photographer on the ladder, pointing camera phone straight down on your head,
even better. Have photographer on ladder, and take video of you shooting, with phone camera video lens pointing straight down on your head, recording the entire shot sequence,
from loading arrow, setting bow hand on grip, all the way to releasing the string. Want to see set, and want to see follow through reaction.

Have photographer on camera phone zoom OUT, so we can see all of you and all of the bow system, so want to see ESPECIALLY want to see end of front stab,
and want to see ALL of your string side elbow...so, short ladder will not work. Need TALL ladder and need to zoom out on camera phone video.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

Jan Ziak said:


> I'd like to ask for help with my longterm, yet unresolved issue. And that is "shooting to the right". I am RH archer, I've been shooting for six years, a year ago started olympic recurve, before barebow only.
> I struggle with shots to the right, when I increase volume of training(5 days a week), it appears after few days of shooting in row. It happened with barebow and it is happening also with olympic recurve. After couple of days off, shots are again centered. However, after a day or more days of shooting in row, shots shift to the right. I need to adjust even sight to the right more and more. Sometimes hits are high right and even quite good grouping. Later, also grouping is bad and I even miss target boss to the right. I assume that this is happening in my front arm. Sometimes I feel it like a micro collapse at the moment of release, that is probably causing it. I also feel a weakness in particular spot at the back of my front arm, very close to the armpit. However, I cannot cope with it. I understand it is related to the shooting style. I suspected it was bad alignment, causing fatigue in my front arm. However, I couldn't get rid of the problem with any alignment.
> Perhaps somebody else came across similar issue in the past or was helping somebody with it. Thank you very much for any response, Jan.


So Jan, are you shooting NTS (Ki Sik style) or are you shooting linear?


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

Jan Ziak said:


> I'd like to ask for help with my longterm, yet unresolved issue. And that is "shooting to the right". I am RH archer, I've been shooting for six years, a year ago started olympic recurve, before barebow only.
> I struggle with shots to the right, when I increase volume of training(5 days a week), it appears after few days of shooting in row. It happened with barebow and it is happening also with olympic recurve. After couple of days off, shots are again centered. However, after a day or more days of shooting in row, shots shift to the right. I need to adjust even sight to the right more and more. Sometimes hits are high right and even quite good grouping. Later, also grouping is bad and I even miss target boss to the right. I assume that this is happening in my front arm. Sometimes I feel it like a micro collapse at the moment of release, that is probably causing it. I also feel a weakness in particular spot at the back of my front arm, very close to the armpit. However, I cannot cope with it. I understand it is related to the shooting style. I suspected it was bad alignment, causing fatigue in my front arm. However, I couldn't get rid of the problem with any alignment.
> Perhaps somebody else came across similar issue in the past or was helping somebody with it. Thank you very much for any response, Jan.


40 cm target face, 18 meters...what is your AVERAGE score? Need to know this, to evaluate your skill level.
If you are shooting Olympic, are you using a clicker? After only shooting 1 year Olympic style, if you are using clicker, dump the clicker. Seriously.

Speak about your bow. 25-inch riser or 23-inch riser?
What poundage rating on your limbs?
What pounds on the fingers?
What length limbs? shorts? mediums? longs?
What string material are you using?
what brand, model of arrows? What spine rating? What raw carbon tube length (end of carbon to end of carbon)? What point weight? What vanes? Any arrow wrap?
what is your brace height?

Are you using Shibuya DX plunger or something better?

On a good day of training, when you feel strong, fire three fletched arrows and at least TWO bareshafts, and take photo.


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## Jan Ziak (May 12, 2016)

nuts&bolts said:


> 40 cm target face, 18 meters...what is your AVERAGE score? Need to know this, to evaluate your skill level.
> If you are shooting Olympic, are you using a clicker? After only shooting 1 year Olympic style, if you are using clicker, dump the clicker. Seriously.
> 
> Speak about your bow. 25-inch riser or 23-inch riser?
> ...


Thank you Alan for so many hints and questions. I will answer some of them, I am not sure about the rest as it will take some time to be able to get them.
Here's bow's data:
Limbs WNS Elite Alpha long 36#, 40# OTF
Riser WNS Vantage 25"
String BCY 8190F, 18 strands
Serving BCY Halo 0.21
Tab Cartel Smart
Arrows Easton Carbon One 500, 30" carbon to carbon
Vanes XS Wings 50mm low profile
Socx Flame arrow wraps 5.5mm
100gn arrow points
Easton pin nocks small
3mm positive tiller on upper limb
9" brace height
5mm nocking point height(lower nock point locator)
Button Shibuya DX, middle spring, brass point

I shoot linear style. My 18m average on 3-spot is 520-530 in competition. I am using clicker.

Meanwhile I discussed my problem with another experienced archer and educated archery trainer. He suggested an issue with improper bow arm placement in setup position. I have to admit I am more and more convinced this it it. I probably don't put front shoulder blade in proper position and engage relevant muscle groups to lock it in stable position. This leads to fatigue after certain loads of arrows and causes instability during the release. I will focus on this in today's training session.


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## Jan Ziak (May 12, 2016)

merlinron said:


> generally, hitting right,... if you are a right handed shooter and if you know your sights and bow are set up correctly,... is from collapsing on the shot (not pulling aggressively, All THE WAY through the shot). this is especially applicable to Olympic style recurve shooting as compared to compound shooting.


Thank you for answer. I agree, it is a collapse on bow arm. I realised that the main reason is probably incorrect bow arm set. The front shoulder blade is not in proper position, which causes fatigue after loads of arrows. I will focus on this.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

Jan Ziak said:


> Thank you Alan for so many hints and questions. I will answer some of them, I am not sure about the rest as it will take some time to be able to get them.
> Here's bow's data:
> Limbs WNS Elite Alpha long 36#, 40# OTF
> Riser WNS Vantage 25"
> ...


Make sure you have "barrel of the gun"...in proper alignment. This means that when you work a rubber stretch band, in the full draw posture, walk backwards and touch a wall with your two shoulder blades...the bow arm, the bow shoulder, the bow elbow, the bow hand and BOTH shoulders should ALL touch the wall behind you.

Increase your brace to 23,5 cm and shoot a group of fletched arrows and at least two bareshafts. Tune plunger setting softer or harder for tightest groups.
Then, increase your brace to 24,1 cm and shoot a group of 3 fletched and 2 bareshaft arrows. Tune plunger setting softer or harder for tightest groups.

I suspect your arrows are too stiff. Try 120 grain points.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

Jan Ziak said:


> Thank you Alan for so many hints and questions. I will answer some of them, I am not sure about the rest as it will take some time to be able to get them.
> Here's bow's data:
> Limbs WNS Elite Alpha long 36#, 40# OTF
> Riser WNS Vantage 25"
> ...


3mm tiller positive is unusual. Are you anchoring at corner of mouth or are you anchoring under the chin (Olympic anchor).
If using Olympic anchor, 6mm tiller is more typical. Experiment with height of nock point..probably in the higher direction. TEST height of nock point by firing
3 fletched and at least 2 bareshafts. Would like to see your results at 18 meters.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

Jan Ziak said:


> Thank you Alan for so many hints and questions. I will answer some of them, I am not sure about the rest as it will take some time to be able to get them.
> Here's bow's data:
> Limbs WNS Elite Alpha long 36#, 40# OTF
> Riser WNS Vantage 25"
> ...


Have you trimmed your tab? Excess length on tab material will make for unclean release (arrow groups not as good as your true potential).


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## Jan Ziak (May 12, 2016)

nuts&bolts said:


> Make sure you have "barrel of the gun"...in proper alignment. This means that when you work a rubber stretch band, in the full draw posture, walk backwards and touch a wall with your two shoulder blades...the bow arm, the bow shoulder, the bow elbow, the bow hand and BOTH shoulders should ALL touch the wall behind you.
> 
> Increase your brace to 23,5 cm and shoot a group of fletched arrows and at least two bareshafts. Tune plunger setting softer or harder for tightest groups.
> Then, increase your brace to 24,1 cm and shoot a group of 3 fletched and 2 bareshaft arrows. Tune plunger setting softer or harder for tightest groups.
> ...


I recorded me shooting today so I am sharing. I know it is probably not even close to what you've asked for but at least something than nothing.
I didn't trim my tab yet, I don't think there's too much of excess leather. But I will consider it.
I shoot olympic anchor as seen in video. Arrows really indicate stiff, bareshaft is left and down of fletched. However, it changes with my form. Sometimes it shows perfect group.

I am aware of checking good alignment leaning with back against the wall, I do it regularly with stretching band and I should be doing quite well.

https://youtu.be/aeOOaviF4ag
https://youtu.be/5gzKvqGvt8o


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

Jan Ziak said:


> I recorded me shooting today so I am sharing. I know it is probably not even close to what you've asked for but at least something than nothing.
> I didn't trim my tab yet, I don't think there's too much of excess leather. But I will consider it.
> I shoot olympic anchor as seen in video. Arrows really indicate stiff, bareshaft is left and down of fletched. However, it changes with my form. Sometimes it shows perfect group.
> 
> ...


Jan, you are torquing the string hand.





Right side wrist is rotated anti-clockwise. Too much tension in forearm and upper arm muscles. Not enough transfer to back muscles.

At 28 seconds, 29 seconds and 30 seconds of video, follow through reaction of bow side wrist/forearm is bad. Bowside forearms swings laterally to your left.
This means, you did not pay attention to proper "barrel of the gun", meaning two shoulder blades to bow arm is not in line. You need to swing RIGHT shoulder more clockwise,
when at full draw. You need to swing LEFT shoulder more clockwise (less horizontal space between left shoulder and string), to get into the WEDGE posture.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8pCejcb6DAI






Until you get into TRUE alignment between two shoulders and entire bow arm, you will continue to see sideways swing of your bow arm, after release.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LVmMj4mzqdw


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## merlinron (Mar 23, 2020)

Jan Ziak said:


> Thank you for answer. I agree, it is a collapse on bow arm. I realised that the main reason is probably incorrect bow arm set. The front shoulder blade is not in proper position, which causes fatigue after loads of arrows. I will focus on this.


keep your shoulders back and down. as if standing at attention. use your rhomboids to pull your shoulder blades together and use that as the basis to hold the draw weight of your bow. when you do this it automatically locks your extended bow arm in place and supports the front of your shot physically. you usually run into collapse problems when you allow your bow shoulder to hunch up because when your shoulder hunches up, you can't and aren't pulling your shoulder blades together with your rhomboids. if you know someone who shoots Olympic recurve well, watch him and ask him to explain to you his draw process. you will find that he uses hid back (rhomboids) to draw and that automatically puts them in position to support the shot. compound is exactly the same as far as drawing.


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## Jan Ziak (May 12, 2016)

merlinron said:


> keep your shoulders back and down. as if standing at attention. use your rhomboids to pull your shoulder blades together and use that as the basis to hold the draw weight of your bow. when you do this it automatically locks your extended bow arm in place and supports the front of your shot physically. you usually run into collapse problems when you allow your bow shoulder to hunch up because when your shoulder hunches up, you can't and aren't pulling your shoulder blades together with your rhomboids. if you know someone who shoots Olympic recurve well, watch him and ask him to explain to you his draw process. you will find that he uses hid back (rhomboids) to draw and that automatically puts them in position to support the shot. compound is exactly the same as far as drawing.


Thank you for suggestions, it was spot on. I realized that I didn't put front shoulder blade in right position. I had it forward all the time and was thinking how good alignment I had 😂 I was training yesterday with stretching band "the shoulder blades together" pattern and after several attempts I found the feeling. I realized I have to do something like turn the chest anti clockwise, seen from above. I have been doing completely the opposite before, it is totally different feeling. Suddenly, my front arm is relaxed and stable at the same time and I feel strong pull in the back shoulder blade. It feels like I am standing tall and back shoulder blade is pushing down, towards the ground. Today I was shooting barebow and trying to restore the feeling. It was very good session. I was consistent enough to be satisfied. Thank you for pointing this out. It takes time to realize what is going to change things.


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## Jan Ziak (May 12, 2016)

nuts&bolts said:


> Jan, you are torquing the string hand.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thank you Alan for analysis. Yes, it looks like a torque on the string, I have to work on it. My alignment is not perfect, I understand. However, I realized that my front shoulder blade was not in proper position. I was extending it forward, what caused an instable position. I think this was the cause of the collapse in bow arm, leading to right shots. I was training proper front shoulder blade position with stretching band and then with barebow today. The feeling was much better, also more consistent shots. I will continue on this as well as on the alignment like you suggested. I will make another video and upload here to see my alignment. Thank you so far.


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