# Looking for validation/critique



## Jamesinator (Jan 26, 2013)

Pic in case it didn't come through.


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## aread (Dec 25, 2009)

You seem to be doing a lot of things right. A few things that may help you improve:

- shorten the draw length on your bow. This is the #1 adjustment to get a compound bow to fit the archer properly. DL is how we set the muscles and bone structure for optimum steadiness. 

- stand straight & set up with your head over the center of body mass. Moving your head one way or the other can make a big difference in your steadiness. Keep your hips under your body mass. Balance your weight evenly on both feet with it a little forward on your toes. Not much but just a little.

- when you shorten the DL, don't go so short as to cause you to tilt your head forward. This is often difficult with short ATA bows, especially when you try to keep a nose on string reference point.

- turn your bow arm elbow out a little more. You want the crease on the inside of your elbow to be vertical if possible. Some people can't do this and if you are one of these, dont' worry about it. The elbow out helps you keep your bow shoulder down.

Learn how to practice on a blank bale. Removing the target from the equation allows you to focus on your form.

It looks like you are doing pretty well for the time you've been shooting. You should consider working with a coach depending on the level that you want to take your archery.

The key to accurate archery is to go from full draw to follow through with the least change to your form. To do this you have to keep your mental focus totally on the X and rely on your subconscious to operate the shot execution without even a flicker of attention away from the target. This isn't easy. Some, maybe most, never master it. And it takes time. But keep it as a goal and work toward it as much as you can.

The others will have more suggestions, probably better than mine, but I hope this helps.
Allen


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## Jamesinator (Jan 26, 2013)

Thanks a lot Allen. I do appreciate the things you've given me.

As far as the draw length, my pro shop measured me and said I should be at 28 in DL, but after shooting the team primos at 29 for a month or so, 28 feels so short. I will do so, and try to set that as the new normal.

With the bow elbow, I can see what you're talking about. Not sure where, but I had read that elbow down was better than elbow out. I can try both I suppose. The first few shots were enough to make me decide that I had to move it somewhere, my forearms are beefy, and were quick to be hit  

With the center mass situation, I do my very best to stand straight, and the more I think about it, the longer draw length has probably also set that precedent.

I only plan on hunting, no 3d or anything competitive, but the way I see it, I owe it to myself and the game I plan to harvest to be a good enough shot to kill first shot, every shot.

I do hope I get more feedback as time goes on, but setting my draw back to 28 and the form flaws you pointed out are a start!

A couple of questions;

I do struggle with trying to get that third point of anchor, and it feels like at 29 my nose touches, but less than that I would have to lean my head, which I know not to do. I've heard of kisser buttons, but even those seem like I would have to bend at full draw. Suggestions? My 2 solid anchors are thumb behind head and my middle knuckle under my earlobe.

The other thing I wondered, was the pro shop doing me a favor setting let off lower to make a harder back wall?


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## R1STEER (Feb 12, 2009)

You must stop moving your string hand up or down to see through your peep. This moves your anchor point which is the foundation of the shot.
Choose an anchor point and do not move it. Adjust your peep so you can see through it without moving anchor point or having to move your head excessively. A slight nod of the head forward is acceptable, anything else won't work.

Get on youtube and look up Performance Archery TV with Alistair Whittingham. Very helpful videos.


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## Jamesinator (Jan 26, 2013)

The decision to move string hand up or down came from a tuning how to video that said the prep is the equivalent of a rear sight on a gun, and you normally want to adjust for up or down with rear sight.

The peep is adjusted correctly, I drew my bow with eyes closed, and then set the peep so it was there when I opened my eyes, so I wouldn't have to bend one way or another to see through it, but some targets are set lower than others, hence my statement about moving the string hand.

I have adjusted my DL back to 28. It still feels foreign. The elbow out makes sense, and when I set dl back, I made sure to include it.


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## aread (Dec 25, 2009)

The second photo looks a lot better. Right now, don't worry too much about what is comfortable. Comfortable is just what you practice frequently.

On the draw length, 28" looks a lot better to me. You will want to fine tune it to get the maximum stability and that's something no one else can measure or tell you. Here are a number of methods of fine tuning DL: http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=1891303&p=1065761951#post1065761951


The thumb behind your neck is not exactly classic form, but it worked pretty well for Michelle Frangili in the last Olympics (gold medal).

One minor thing is your bow hand. It looks pretty relaxed, which is good, but since you will eventually be putting razor blades on the front end of your arrows, you should get into the habit of tucking in the three extended fingers. I've never seen this type of accident, but in the heat of the moment ....

Another minor thing is to get rid of the big rubber band pointed at your eye. The peep aligner will eventually fail and when it does it's coming straight at your eye. You don't need this with well made strings of modern materials. It also robs you of 5 to 10 fps of arrow speed. A well tied D-loop is usually enough to align the peep. If not, you probably need a new string anyway. 

One of the best tips I can give you is to join a local archery club. Start with the Tennessee Archery Association to find one. Or your local shop may be able to provide you with a contact. I've learned more at my club than anywhere else & made some great friends.

Now for the biggest thing - Avoiding target panic. Right now you are finding the target in your sights and as the pin drifts by the X you are punching the trigger. How do I know this? It's almost impossible to get the kind of groups that you are getting this soon after starting archery without doing it this way. Don't feel bad, nearly every archer who started without top level coaching does it this way. This can be effective for a time, but when the pressure is on, such as aiming at your first deer, anticipation sets in. You'll soon find yourself jerking or flinching just as you release your arrow. In some archers this has gotten so bad as to be dangerous. They flinch so bad that the arrow ends up several yards off target. The way to avoid this is break the connection between your eye and the release. Pin on target is never a reason to release the arrow. You want to learn subconscious execution and conscious aiming. This means that once you commit to releasing, you can totally focus on the target and rely on your subconscious to execute the release. This is what separates the guys who have a lifelong enjoyment of archery and those who give it up after a year or two. 

For a good explanation of this and how to learn to do it, I recommend the book "Idiot Proof Archery". There is a lot of useless BS in this book, but parts of it are as good as it gets. The author does a great job of describing the use of a blank bale and, more importantly, the bridge. He learned it from Len Cardinale who has coached several Olympic teams and is in a couple of archery hall of fame's. There is a lot of personality type nonsense and marketing BS that you can skip over. But once you get past that, there is a lot of solid information in the book. Len also made a couple of videos available from Robin Hood Videos that are great. I watch them every year or two and see something new every time.

Hope this helps,
Allen


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## P&y only (Feb 26, 2009)

The advice above is correct about your anchor point. Poke the knuckle of your pointer finger in under your ear in the little socket there. Find something comfy that you can repeat EVERY time. Having the same anchor is critical. When aiming, center the ring of your sight in the ring of your peep too.


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## Jamesinator (Jan 26, 2013)

Fantastic Allen. Thanks again for the advice. The bow hand really is just fingers out to ensure I'm not torquing the bow. Typically before a release, ill wrap the fingers lightly and then let the arrow go.

The peep aligner has already broken once, but luckily was after release. I've been looking into stringless peeps, but was warned that with string stretch, the peep will drift, and if there's one thing you don't want to have happen is that bruiser walk under your stand, goes broadside, and then you're looking down the solid side of your peep. Ill pick one up, and see how it goes. I've got another 3/4 of the year to get set with what I want to use, so I may as well try it all with something as reasonably priced as peeps.

And you're right on the method of aiming. I've seen several videos talking about the method you're describing, and its something I'm definitely aware of. Ill try to get my hands on the book you suggested.

Did you have any advice on the backwall and letoff adjustments I described?

Thanks also for the anchor point advice, and the behind the neck seems to make sure I'm not turning my head also, I have a certain spot my thumb finds and ensures I'm not goofing up.


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## da white shoe (Mar 10, 2009)

Very solid advice from Allen! The second picture looks vastly improved! I would like to see the fingers of both hands completely relaxed and hanging loose.
Also, once you start to draw, do not move the bow hand at all. Sounds like you are using controlled breathing... very good! Muscle relaxation at full draw will settle your sight pins even more.

The rubber tubing isn't that dangerous for guys wearing glasses. :wink:

I've never had one break that went toward my eye... always seems to go the other way.
I have always used tubing. Inspect it regularly by pulling it tight and checking the attachment points for cracking.... change it out when you see any sign of it and you won't ever have to worry about it.
On TV, I still see a lot of guys twisting their peeps one way or the other right before they draw... I won't trust it for hunting.

One thing I've learned about peep tubing... measure it and use the exact same length every time you change it. 
Using a different length will make your bow shoot high or low, depending on whether you cut it longer or shorter.


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## Jamesinator (Jan 26, 2013)

Well guys, I got a chance to go out and shoot this evening, and I cannot draw fully and rest a steady pin at 28". My shoulder felt way too bunched up to hold without shaking.

I pulled another half inch, putting me at 28.5, same story. My bow arm was strained, and I couldn't reliably shoot anywhere near the other arrows I had placed. I dropped another peg, back to 29, and my arm sat perfectly still. My sight stopped winding and shaking, my nose sat back on my string, and my first knuckle sat back against the corner of my jaw.

I know it looks as though the 28 inch fits, but should it be that hard to stay stable at my correct draw?

I watched almost the entire performance archery series on youtube, and since, I've made habit the following:

1. Tucking fingers around my grip on now hand. I make a loose circle to keep the bow from canting, and lay my smaller fingers on top.

2. Keeping a consistent more open stance. This puts more weight on the balls of my feet, and keepse from leaning back at the longer draw.

3. Stopped floating and jerking the trigger. I moved my release back on the mount enough that my finger between joints makes it release when pulled back far enough. I have noticed that without knowing the exact moment that my arrow will release, I'm less apt to jerk in any manner. The release hand stays loose behind my ear, and the bow drops on my wrist strap.

I've included another picture at 29 from tonight, and I can see a difference. I'm still open to critique, and if the coaches are adamant that I need to force the 28", then I'll do so.


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## pattersonj11 (Jul 27, 2012)

This may be a me thing but you can decide. If the peep tube holder on the cable is able to move, I would slide it up or down. I don't like that stretched tube pointing right at the eye. I've seen those things dry rot and break. You seem safe with the glasses, but it doesn't take a lot to scratch a retina. Just food for thought.


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## aread (Dec 25, 2009)

I'm a little confused. (easy to do  ) In the photo in post #6, the DL looks pretty good. However the photo in post #11 looks like you have shortened it significantly. The thing I'm looking at is your bow arm. In 6 it's extended, straight, but not locked. In 11 it's bent quite a bit more.

Which photo is the 28" draw length? Is it a combination of the 28" DL and the shortened release?

A couple of rules of thumb: anything new works perfectly for 3 days. Any change requires 2 to 3 weeks to properly evaluate and a lot longer to ingrain into your shot.

I'd recommend that you set the DL to whatever it is in post #6 and shoot it for a couple of weeks. While doing this focus on relaxing as many muscles as possible. Visualize that you are holding the bow at full draw by moving your draw side elbow directly back and in line with the arrow. You will have to use your back muscles to accomplish this. Your bow arm is just a dead stick acting as a strut. This sounds a little silly, but trust me on this one. You'll be happy you did.

Allen


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## Jamesinator (Jan 26, 2013)

Post 2 is 29 inch with longer release strap. Post 6 is 28 with longer release strap. Post 11 is 29 with shorter release. I did go back out and shoot at 28 again today, and I'm pretty sure the shaking was mostly from fatigue last night.

Unfortunately with my work schedule mandates that my only shooting during the week is at night, after I've worked all day. Today I had sick little boys, so I got to stay home until the wife got back. After that, I went out to the pro shop and set back to 28, loosened my release a little, and the pin sat pretty steady. I moved my sight to the next set of holes down rather than moving my peep around again, and the whole setup feels more natural.

Without noticing, I was having to arch my neck a little to see through my peep to the front sight. I adjusted the sight to the next set of holes down. And I don't have to stretch or shrink to see.


So in review:

My bow hand is loose, I place the bow on the pad underneath my thumb, and the groove there keeps the bow pressure going straight through my wrist, to my forearm, to my elbow, straight on through my shoulder. The only time these muscles are tense is when moving the bow back up after draw. I wrap my bowhand pointer fingers in a loose circle under my arrow shelf, and lay my fingers on top of it. I'm shooting with my quiver attatched like I will be when hunting, and think I should get a level for my sight to keep that in check. 

My draw is set at 28" (E on my cam) and my letoff matches (also on E) The letoff being set right keeps my muscles from twitching. 

My release is adjusted so that at full draw, I reference the middle knuckle bone of my pointer finger to the corner of my jaw bone, and I can feel the string on my nose, the corner fletching of my arrow almost touches my mouth.

My peep tube was too tight tied around my cable. I bought a little nub that the tube rolls onto, and its nowhere near as tight now. It still aligns the peep, but seems nowhere near as strained. The peep is at a level where at full draw with my eyes closed, I open my target eye and the peep is right in front of me, and the sight fits directly in the circle. 

When getting ready to release, ill float the pin over my target, start to pull my wrist back, and the meat between pointer fingers pulls my trigger for me, and I have nowhere near the anxiety that I felt to punch at just the right time. It took several shots of being surprised when the arrow released, but my groups started to fall into place, nowhere near the accuracy I saw when punching, but I understand the process. I still practice breathing, but after shooting guns most of my life, thats almost second nature. 

After release, I keep my release hand behing my ear, and after I see the arrow hit, I roll my bow forward to rest on my wrist strap. I grabbed another arrow and repeat.

The wife is at the mall, so I don't have a cameraman now, but I'll grab another picture later and toss up here. 

I also pm'f nutsandbolts, but haven't heard back from him yet, maybe I'll have the new pic up by the time he gets around to it. 

Thanks again to all who have chimed in. I can tell a massive difference in the short time I've been trying the diffetent things I've been advised.


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## Jamesinator (Jan 26, 2013)

New picture taken. Not sure if the form is getting better or not, but I do know that in the last photo, I'm much much more stable and my accuracy has gone wild.

Picture 1-








This picture is at 29 inch draw, release set longer. 

Picture 2-








This picture is at 28 inch draw, release still set longer.

Picture 3-








This picture is at 28 inch draw, release set shorter, and after reading post after post after post, listening to nuts&bolts, and watching videos.

My aim/ shot sequence has changed somewhat.

1. Turn 90* to the target and open my front foot. 
2. Pull my bow up, how arm straight, pulling my string hand back by closing my elbow. Drop the sight below the target and raise it back to target.
3. Anchor middle knuckle of pointer finger to the notch under my earlobe. My fingers dangle beneath the hole of my ear.
4. Straighten my back leg, back hip,back, and ensure my weight is in the correct spots.
5. Float the pin on the target. When steady and holding, breathe in.
6. Begin exhaling and putting pressure on my release finger. The shot squeezes off and typically hits pretty close to my aim point. I've made sure that I'm aiming with my full attention, and the shot comes as a surprise.
7. After release, follow string hand through ear, roll bow forward and check shot.


Now that I've picked up the pointers listed, as well as getting my form my h closer to where it should be (or so ive read), I feel much more confident in my shots, and feel like I've got a solid foundation to build on.


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