# Coaches



## Sanford (Jan 26, 2009)

I'll bet more folks live closer to a qualified coach than they do to just one person in the U.S., Rick Welch. Though he does travel. They just don't know it. USAA and NFAA have a combined coach/instructor locator on the web that is now kinda lacking, but is promised to become better. We'll see. The main problem with it still is that most are just Level I instructors to meet insurance/background requirements to teach youth groups, though, there are a good bit of coaches throughout the country with higher level training to coach - all the way up to being certified through hands on at the NTC.

I once bought a plane ticket and got a day with the very best coach  and it still cost me less than a day at a RW clinic. To boot, I did not have to share the day with others in some clinic, others who also paid for a whole day.


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

well - there is the first non-answer from one of the guys recommending that everyone get a coach


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## Sanford (Jan 26, 2009)

If you can, get one. If you can't, don't. If you are going to spend several hundred dollars to get some coaching, research your options and strive for more sessions over less - your attention and retention span is much better that way. For someone starting out, a good JOAD coach is much cheaper and better instruction than some RW clinic, and usually, there's more of them coming near you to teach or at closer distance to you. Usually, not always. They are out there, just not always in your back door, but neither is RW.


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

I would like someone to name me 10 guys in the entire nation that are good shots and have the ability to teach traditional archery to someone who wants to shoot instinctive - I have now reduced it from one for each State to just 10 in the whole nation. If there are not even 10 in the entire nation - do you now see why I think this idea of telling guys who want to shoot traditional instinctive to get a coach is sort of pointless?


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## centershot (Sep 13, 2002)

Exactly why I recommend folks get the book "Shooting the Stickbow". Because many (including myself) do not have reasonable access to a coach.


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## Sanford (Jan 26, 2009)

centershot said:


> Exactly why I recommend folks get the book "Shooting the Stickbow". Because many (including myself) do not have reasonable access to a coach.


With just that method alone, I was shooting 270 within 1.5 total years at archery.


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

sooo - still not a single one named - but they keep advising new guys to "get a coach"


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

In most cases....a coach will work just on form. The aiming should be secondary as far as importance...so any coach...no matter what their personal aiming technique is....can be of benefit...even to the archer, who wants to learn how to aim Instinctively.

One of the reasons why Rick's class has been so effective...is because he is able to teach an archer how to quickly and easily develop consistentcy while also making the aiming process easier.

Ray :shade:


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## steve morley (Dec 24, 2005)

http://www.teamusa.org/USA-Archery/Programs/Coaching/Coach-Locator.aspx

Link to USA Coaches by each state, for example Wisconsin has 20 level 1 and 2 coaches available in the State. Fita coaching is target but in the courses they can pick to specialize in a certain area, when I did my level 1 and 2 I picked Longbow/Barebow Field shooting, I dont know how the USA programe works though it might be slightly different, but I doubt it, all the coaches will have an acceptable understanting of the Archers requirements for Field/3D shooting.


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## Sanford (Jan 26, 2009)

steve morley said:


> http://www.teamusa.org/USA-Archery/Programs/Coaching/Coach-Locator.aspx
> 
> Link to USA Coaches by each state, for example Wisconsin has 20 level1 and 2 coaches available in the State


Yes, and that's just the ones who elected to be on the list or were remembered by USAA/NFAA to become on the list. It is very incomplete, and as archery instruction is growing, not keeping up. I am Level II Certified by USAA/NFAA and still not on that list for my state but should be soon I hope.


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## Moebow (Jul 8, 2010)

An interesting and valid question Sharp. Wisconsin does have a lack of "certified" coaches = none currently listed only some instructors at level 1 and 2 . http://www.teamusa.org/USA-Archery/Programs/Coaching/Coach-Locator.aspx

The only current program (that I'm aware of) in the US is the USA Archery NTS system. Here is the thing that I'd guess you will not accept; it is what I have learned over the last few years and feel is valid. Basic form, as taught in the NTS can be applied to ALL the different versions of archery. It gives an instructor/coach a model to work toward for form. Will it be the exact same for all? -- NO but it gives a "road map" for development. I, for one feel that this "road map" can largely be applied to C bows, target bows and what we call traditional. Once consistent form is learned, then the method of directing the arrow to the target becomes a personal choice. Call it aiming or whatever, but whether you use sights, string walk, face walk, use point of aim, gap, or instinctive or any other label that suits you, they are all just different methods of directing the arrow. Not significant differences in form.

So my response is that if a person wants to improve their form, instructors and coaches have some knowledge from a recognized system to do that. IF the desire to learn a particular method of directing the arrow they (the coaches and instructors) MIGHT be of less help depending on their background in archery. Aiming by whatever style is just one step in the shot sequence and frankly not even the most important one IMO.

Finally, in the "traditional" community, NO ONE has set up any kind of instructor's training that is ONLY for what we call Traditional. Not the NFAA, IBO, Comptons, you name it. Many of the "name" instructors we often refer to in the Trad community are undeniably great shots with track records to prove it. Some of them, too have at least studied the NTS so have a knowledge of it. They all bring a valid program to the public, but so do many of the folks that have the NTS certifications.

I probably drifted from your original question but the answer is in the link I posted above. You can find the coaches in every state that are currently listed as active coaches.

Arne


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## centershot (Sep 13, 2002)

Sanford said:


> With just that method alone, I was shooting 270 within 1.5 total years at archery.


Me too, 260's regularly, with several rounds in the 270's two years in...........old sharpie needs to read the book he spend so much effort degrading.


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## vabowdog (Dec 13, 2007)

Ken...I guess it midst be really cold up there...to tell the world it's pointless to get a coach because he or she doesn't teach instinctive traditional archery is ridiculous....if all a coach has to offer is instinctive shooting then why bother even going...you wouldn't listen to what he has to say anyway!!! If it wasn't RW they won't be qualified anyhow!!


Sorry don't mean to be mean just stating the obvious....


Dewayne


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## 2413gary (Apr 10, 2008)

sharpbroadhead said:


> sooo - still not a single one named - but they keep advising new guys to "get a coach"


I can name at least 10 to 15 in Southern Ca that can teach you to shoot . you don't have to be a certified coach to teach. you just have to know how. I think we sometimes get hung up on the word " Coach " I would suggest for the new shooters that want to learn go to as many tournaments as possible. watch the top shooters do what they do. Then bug the crap out of them beg for help most will be glad to. The biggest problem is most of us are afraid to stand on the line and let every body see how poor we shoot. I hear a ton of people say I am not going to compete until I am good enough. Get out there and rub elbows with the shooters. It's like the guy standing on the corner with a sign. you ain't going to get help if you don't ask.
Gary


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

once again- someone who wants to shoot traditional archery aiming instinctively.

Regarding 300 Round scores - I never shot them before the year before I went to the Indoor Nationals a few years ago and scored 259 and 264 at the nationals - if I remember right - and at home I was averaging in the mid 270's, which I still do - and I have never had a coach or even saw the book Shooting the Stickbow at that time - and I scored and score this with my hunting bow, hunting arrows, shot off the shelf and aiming instinctively.

I cannot think of a single "coach" that teaches traditional archery geared towards bowhunting shot instinctively in the entire state of Wisconsin - and I doubt that there are even 5 in the whole country - let alone 10 or 50.


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

va - if somone wants to learn to shoot a traditional bow instinctively - who should they go to in your opinion - how many guys teach this that you personally can name?


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## Thin Man (Feb 18, 2012)

Steve and Arne, 

I tried that link and got a "no go" message. 

I also searched the site menus and could not find any "instructors" area. 

Could you possible describe how to hit the site and then navigate to the "instructors" page?

Sorry to bother you, and thanks.


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## Moebow (Jul 8, 2010)

Thin man, pops right up for me but go to the USA Archery website, http://www.teamusa.org/USA-Archery.aspx
Click on the "programs" tab; on the list on the left side select "coaching;" then coach locator."

Arne


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## Dewey3 (May 6, 2012)

The link works for me, too ... hey! ... there is a coach in my town!

Arne - can you please explain the rankings (level 1, 2, ... etc.) ???


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

Sharp...how would you teach someone to aim Instinctively?

Would you spend more time on form or aiming with a student?

Ray :shade:


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## Sanford (Jan 26, 2009)

Ken,

Any good program teaches the basics and most start off without sights and off the fingers. That's instinctive and everyone teaches it. No one teaches the made up internet version of "instinctive" archery and aiming, not even RW or Rod, as their systems from what I have read are nothing more than very, very, basic NTS form requirements. That's what makes them work as for anyone else's program. Again, look at RWs video on aiming. The general public of shooters, coaches and instructors have no time for that nonsense in segregation of shooting a bow - it's only seen on these message boards, the real world is about very similar methods in the basics. That's what works. So to answer your question, no, you will never find someone teaching what you have concocted in your head as traditional or instinctive archery. Only you are left to do that.


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## Moebow (Jul 8, 2010)

Dewey, On that page at the top is a tab for "certification." Click on that and you will find a description of all 5 levels.

Arne


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## Brianlocal3 (Dec 14, 2011)

Ken,
Jack Hoffarth at town hall archery in belleville, Il the man is a stud and T
At I'd guess 70 or so is a damn fine shot. $25 an hour.


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## grantmac (May 31, 2007)

Sanford said:


> With just that method alone, I was shooting 270 within 1.5 total years at archery.


State indoor record of 282 14x after 1.5 years of deciding I wanted to be competitive, previous archery was all overbowed arrow flinging. No coach; only references were other archers (Thanks Ren), STS and forums.
The book answered all the technical questions that I had.

I think if I'd gone to a decent JOAD coach 5 years back I'd be way ahead of where I am now.

-Grant


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## Sanford (Jan 26, 2009)

grantmac said:


> State indoor record of 282 14x after 1.5 years of deciding I wanted to be competitive, previous archery was all overbowed arrow flinging. No coach; only references were other archers (Thanks Ren), STS and forums.
> The book answered all the technical questions that I had.
> 
> I think if I'd gone to a decent JOAD coach 5 years back I'd be way ahead of where I am now.
> ...


When I started shooting competitively in Freestyle Limited Recurve (Oly), that's where I found a true plateau in my competitive shooting just do the sheer numbers of folks who do have full-to-semi-full time coaches and the number of shooters in that class with more devotion than I could give it, whether in practice or travel and competition. I still love it, but always feel that self-taught and coached, I'm limited from breaking into the top scoring until I make a similar move and get on with a coach to help me over that plateau.

282 in competition!!! Man, that's an accomplishment. Congrats!!!!


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## vabowdog (Dec 13, 2007)

Ken...I'm not trying to be sarcastic...but....how is someone supposed to coach,teach,mentor a method that even the guys who are the best at it like you can't even explain????

To me form is much more important than aiming...learning how to execute the perfect shot is irrelevant of of how we aim the arrow....

Also the way Ricks video shows the shot where the target is in focus but the arrow is not..I don't call that instinctive to me it's gap..there is a gap above or below the target at certain distances..maybe knowing those distances instinctively is what he shoots I don't know...don't even claim to know...probably don't even want to know...

Before I would just search out an instinctive coach if there even is one...I would do a little more research to find a coach that teaches a method that I can check and double check instead of just wondering...most instinctive shooters are so bad they don't know if their arrows are 25 lbs too stiff or absolutely perfect...once again not being mean just stating the obvious.

Dewayne


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## vabowdog (Dec 13, 2007)

Ken to answer your question about who I would send someone to to help them "learn" to shoot instinctively would be Rod Jenkins class...Rod can certainly help anyone with any problems they have with form and they would have to take it from there.


Dewayne


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## Bigjono (Apr 21, 2009)

I have never seen a coach. What little I know I learnt from MBB 2 and 3, Shooting the Stickbow, asking friends and reading on TT and AT. I really wish I had seen a coach when I started.


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## Dewey3 (May 6, 2012)

Moebow said:


> Dewey, On that page at the top is a tab for "certification." Click on that and you will find a description of all 5 levels.
> 
> Arne


:doh: :redface:

Thank you !!!


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## centershot (Sep 13, 2002)

sharpbroadhead said:


> once again- someone who wants to shoot traditional archery aiming instinctively.
> 
> Regarding 300 Round scores - I never shot them before the year before I went to the Indoor Nationals a few years ago and scored 259 and 264 at the nationals - if I remember right - and at home I was averaging in the mid 270's, which I still do - and I have never had a coach or even saw the book Shooting the Stickbow at that time - and I scored and score this with my hunting bow, hunting arrows, shot off the shelf and aiming instinctively.



That's why it took you 20 years and us 2.


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## MGF (Oct 27, 2012)

I'm sure a coach is a great idea for anybody who's serious about shooting. I just don't think it's practical for many people. I can't even buy my archery supplies locally so I really doubt if there's a coach close enough to see on a regular basis.


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## centershot (Sep 13, 2002)

vabowdog said:


> Ken...I guess it midst be really cold up there...to tell the world it's pointless to get a coach because he or she doesn't teach instinctive traditional archery is ridiculous....if all a coach has to offer is instinctive shooting then why bother even going...you wouldn't listen to what he has to say anyway!!! If it wasn't RW they won't be qualified anyhow!!
> 
> 
> Sorry don't mean to be mean just stating the obvious....
> ...


Hilarious.


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## vabowdog (Dec 13, 2007)

There's only a few I'd travel 5 minutes to listen to....


Dewayne


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## Jimmy Blackmon (Sep 9, 2010)

You certainly have a knack for starting threads like this with such a negative connotation. You seem to like very few people in the sport of archery and are not tolerant of those who disagree with your modus operandi. You knew what most of the responses would be when you began the thread but I'm curious as to your stated motivation for the thread, other than to say, "There is only one guy in the country formally teaching instinctive aiming." Take a deep breath then read on. 95% of the folks that consult a coach need longterm form work. They can get the tools to help them with a training plan and subsequently follow up after a clinic with lots of folks. Most folks that attend clinics want to talk about tuning arrows. You think I'm kidding but I'm not. However, most of them can not shoot consistently enough to properly tune in the first place. They don't need to worry about aiming or tuning right now. They need to learn a repeatable shot sequence and once that is ingrained into the subconscious (see I used your favorite word) then they can tune and worry about how they are going to aim the arrow. If they choose instinctive, which I support for many folks, then they can go there. If they want to learn gap or stringwalking or other methods there are a multitude of sources for information. 

I am, however, interested in you a description from you on how to train a guy to aim instinctively. Aside from the mechanics of the shot, I'm not sure what you can say other than focus on a spot and turn the shot over to the subconscious - trust the subconscious. Now repeat. I may be completely wrong so I look forward to your description. Perhaps we could use the internet to proliferate the piece.


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

Jimmy Blackmon said:


> They don't need to worry about aiming or tuning right now. * They need to learn a repeatable shot sequence and once that is ingrained into the subconscious *(see I used your favorite word) *then they can tune and worry about how they are going to aim the arrow.* If they choose instinctive, which I support for many folks, then they can go there. If they want to learn gap or stringwalking or other methods there are a multitude of sources for information.
> 
> *I am, however, interested in you a description from you on how to train a guy to aim instinctively.* Aside from the mechanics of the shot, I'm not sure what you can say other than focus on a spot and turn the shot over to the subconscious - trust the subconscious.


:thumbs_up :thumbs_up

Rick Welch basically teaches people how to aim 'instinctively' by trying to mimic how a person points their finger naturally at an object.

Based on his videos...Rick suggests that an archer basically should try to get the arrow closer to the eye so that the point of the arrow looks like their finger would within their sight picture as they point at the target at the common distance they will be shooting from. In other words...work on getting the arrow to impact where a person naturally points.

IMO...what he is basically teaching is a form of Gap Aiming at a lower level of conscious awareness...to the point an archer doesn't have HUGE gaps to deal with and makes the aiming process easier by getting the aiming references closer to being on target.

Ray :shade:


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## Warbow (Apr 18, 2006)

BLACK WOLF said:


> Based on his videos...Rick suggests that an archer basically should try to get the arrow closer to the eye so that the point of the arrow looks like their finger would within their sight picture as they point at the target at the common distance they will be shooting from. In other words...work on getting the arrow to impact where a person naturally points.
> 
> IMO...what he is basically teaching is a form of Gap Aiming at a lower level of conscious awareness...to the point an archer doesn't have HUGE gaps to deal with and makes the aiming process easier by getting the aiming references closer to being on target.
> 
> Ray :shade:


It's the same thing G. Fred Asbell teaches. I think they are both talented teachers, but are also both mistaken in their theory, and that what they are really doing is what you described. If someone is good at archery they are likely to think that the *theory* they come up must be true because they are a good shot, rather than they are a good shot who has jumped to a simple, but wrong explanation. We know Welch is a world class shot and a much praised teacher, but that doesn't mean that his theories are correct. It is entirely possible to teach techniques that work even though the theories are wrong.


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

The point of this thread was to illustrate that to recommend to a guy who wants to learn how to shoot traditional instinctively - there are very few coaches out there and that this advise is useless to most guys.

Where you get that most guys attend shooting clinics to learn to tune arrows is beyond me. I attended the Asbell Clinic at Black Widow and most guys there, myself included wanted to learn to shoot and hunt better - Ken Beck did a little thing about tuning - but that was like one hour out of the two day clinic - and nobody i know of out of the 20 or so guys that where there came to learn how to tune arrows.

This thread was started after the conversation in the Rick Welch school thread where a guy who wanted to learn how to shoot a trad bow instincdtively for hunting and was asking about opinions on Rick's school - and some guys were suggesting that he would be better off to get a coach that can work with him on a regular basis.

There are too few people that have access to a coach that can work with them on a regular basis.

Regarding how to train a guy to shoot instinctively - how do clinics teach basketball players to make a basket or football players to accurately throw a ball - there is more too it than just form - it is understanding how the mind works - it is understanding how to apply what our mind is cabable of to the shot, it is learning to trust your subconscious, it is learning how to avoid common mistakes made by many who try instinctive shooting.

here is an example - you are wanting to shoot instinctively and are practicing - you are having a day where your form never feels quite right, but you keep working at it and your arrows are going all over the place - suddenly you make a good shot - smack in the center of the bull - but you know it did not feel right and your form was not right - you have to not allow yourself to be pleased with that shot - if you are pleased because you made it - even though you had bad form - your subconscious will try to duplicate that shot - bad form and all! 

it is knowing how to practice, when to practice, when not to practice, how to recover from a bad shot and a good shot, how to mentally prepare for the shot, how to train your subconscious in the most efficient way possible, etc...

Believe it or not - but there is a lot to be learned and understood to be a good instinctive shot - and one of the most difficult things to learn - or master is the ability to surrender the shot to the subconscious - this is VERY difficult for some people to do - but with someone there drilling it into your head with every shot to surrender the shot - and you start to see that it works - it helps people begin to trust and surrender the shot.

I don't know what Rick teaches or doesn't teach at his clinics - I never attended but I can tell you that there is more to it than just learning good form and looking at your spot - and the more you understand about the subconsious as it relates to archery - the more effective of an archer you will be.


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

I have Rick Welches videos and nowhere in them does he talk about getting the arrow close to your eye


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## Warbow (Apr 18, 2006)

Jimmy Blackmon said:


> I am, however, interested in you a description from you on how to train a guy to aim instinctively. Aside from the mechanics of the shot, I'm not sure what you can say other than focus on a spot and turn the shot over to the subconscious - trust the subconscious. Now repeat. I may be completely wrong so I look forward to your description. Perhaps we could use the internet to proliferate the piece.


I'd say there are a number of mechanisms to teach instinctive. One of them is to learn gap aiming and practice it a lot so it becomes second nature--but G. Fred Asbell says no, no, no, you mustn't ever see the arrow. :dontknow:


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

Byron Ferguson teaches that you should learn gap first and then as you get better and more skilled as an archer you should get away from the gap and just look at your spot and allow your subconscious to aim the bow - I see nothing wrong with this and for some guys it might work - but you do not have to do it this way. Welch does not teach this method, I have never used this method, but if it works - go for it.


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

Regarding Asbell - i have no issues with his aiming method and what he says about aiming (though I think his right/left brain stuff would be more accurately described by conscious/subconscious mind), and I have no issues with what he teaches about hunting - but his form - oh my - his form - is horrible and the way he teaches guys form is really bad in my opinion.


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## Yewselfbow (Jan 28, 2006)

Hhmmm .. interesting thread. My ELB coach here in the UK is 85 years old, can't see very well even with his glasses, can only walk a few yards without his trusty walking stick and has no coaching qualifications ..... he just happen to be the finest ELB archer I've ever seen.


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## grantmac (May 31, 2007)

sharpbroadhead said:


> I have Rick Welches videos and nowhere in them does he talk about getting the arrow close to your eye


What do you think the anchor positions he explains do? They are most certainly NOT the most efficient way to draw a bow, but are instead an excellent way to reduce your gaps. Just like shooting 3-under, same deal.

Truth is Ken you wouldn't benefit from any coach who didn't tell you exactly what you wanted to hear. I suspect that is true of many self taught archers who've been in the game for a while.

-Grant


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## Warbow (Apr 18, 2006)

sharpbroadhead said:


> Regarding Asbell - but his form - oh my - his form - is horrible and the way he teaches guys form is really bad in my opinion.


Ah, I haven't seen much of that. I read his book when I was first getting into archery but it really wasn't geared towards the kind of shooting I was doing. At first I bought the "the arrow must be as close to your hand as possible so that it is like pointing your finger" stuff, but after learning more about shooting it seemed more and more dubious.


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

sharpbroadhead said:


> I have Rick Welches videos and nowhere in them does he talk about getting the arrow close to your eye



He doesn't have to say it. It's common knowledge that in order to get your sight picture to look as if your arrow was your finger naturally pointing at an object and be able to hit a target at typical hunting distances...an archer HAS to get their arrow closer to their eye.

Ray :shade:


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## Warbow (Apr 18, 2006)

BLACK WOLF said:


> He doesn't have to say it. It's common knowledge that in order to get your sight picture to look as if your arrow was your finger naturally pointing at an object and be able to hit a target at typical hunting distances...an archer HAS to get their arrow closer to their eye.
> 
> Ray :shade:


Ironically, that isn't how we point our fingers. I don't line my upper arm under my eye and gun barrel down it to point at someone. Asbell's theory is wrong on so many levels.


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## Brianlocal3 (Dec 14, 2011)

Hey, I'm the only one to list a coach in my area!!!! I should win a prize for answering the question


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## benofthehood (May 18, 2011)

I didn't know coaches taught aiming styles , I thought they taught and coached archers on form and shot execution ... and if "instinctive" is all just subconsciously pointing a well tuned bow at the target ... then why would one need a coach ... sounds like you need a bow mechanic to get your bow tuned then just practice going by your defintion of instinctive ...


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

Warbow said:


> Ironically, that isn't how we point our fingers. I don't line my upper arm under my eye and gun barrel down it to point at someone.


When you point at an object....is your finger on the object in your sight picture?

For those of us who do place our finger on the object we're pointing at within our sight picture...we do have get the arrow closer to our to reduce our POD. Doing this helps replicates the sight picture that naturally occurs as if the arrow was being used like our finger.

Ray :shade:


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## Matt_Potter (Apr 13, 2010)

Hey I want to learn this instinctive thing - can someone find me a traditional *instinctive* coach here in Montana?? Oh yeah did I mention they have to be a Lefty as I am sure a righty couldn't relate to me - it would all be backwards. Oh and I guess they should average at least a 9.5 on a 3d course cause we all know you need to be a great shot to coach.

Matt


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## Jimmy Blackmon (Sep 9, 2010)

Ken - if you taught all that you discuss in your reply to me above you would be the only one in the country to do so. Perhaps you should begin coaching. Seriously. 

I have every one of Rick's videos, I've read Al Henderson's book, all of G.Fred's books, Lanny Basham's book, watched all of the Masters of the Barebow numerous times, taken the clinic for Kisik Lee's BEST shooting form, Modern Traditional, been coached by an NFAA Level 4 instructor, am consider the best coach I've worked with to be Rod Jenkins. I've tried them all out because I'm open minded and want to know if they are onto something. Ken I don't just sit and espouse theory based on what I've heard. I am a student of this sport and want to know as much as I can about every type of aiming, shooting form etc. that I can find out. The more knowledge I can gain the better and the more I learn the more I want to share. Now, you posted 4 minutes after Warbow exactly what he said. You can agree with him completely, and Byron and me for that matter. 

Having tried everything I can find out about archery, with a lot more yet to be learned, I have settled on learning to gap methodically - scientifically, and then shoot until the gaps become subconscious. I've been telling you this for years. Case in point - I am shooting my Titan III. My gaps are 16" at 10y, 21" @ 15y, 23" at 20y, 21" @ 25y and back to 16" at 30y. I consciously focused on those distances for about 500 arrows and then I quit estimating distance and gap. I just put the bow up and trusted. I'm shooting great. I know that as long as I'm between 15 and 25 yards my sight picture is about the same. It looks and feels right. At shorter distances I don't even think gap. I just draw the bow, focus on the 11-ring and shoot and it's there. At 30 I try to pay more attention because it will be dropping. I am shooting instinctive but I am conscious of the arrow in that I see it in my peripheral vision and know that my L to R is correct. 

I can teach a guy to do this Ken. I can work on form with him and then go through his gaps and have him apply them methodically. Then I can wean him off of them by teaching himself to trust the gap will be there and focus on the spot all the while keeping good form. This is tangible stuff I'm talking about, but I don't know anyone who specifically teaches gap either. Oh, and when I took the BEST lessons they never once mentioned aiming. It was about shot execution. It was one on one with Ruth Rowe. You can google her for credentials or look her books and videos up at LAS. 

Anyway, I won't go point by point with you on the other issues you distrust in my post but I don't make it up.


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## Bowsage (Apr 29, 2008)

I've traveled five hours , fifteen minutes to see my "coach" for the last three years, once per year, best money ever spent. one hour the first time and a half an hour the other two trips, $160.00. He told me after the first visit "now its up to you", he was right. A man with about 50 plus years experience ,I figured I couldn't go wrong! Right again! I'll be headed that way soon to pick up a new target bow and another 30 minute refresher.


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## ozzypop (Sep 23, 2010)

Sharp if you would take the time to read but since you know everything about everything including Viper's book you would find that in the shooting part of the book he tells a new archer to hold the bow like he talked about in previous chapters look at the target and shoot. He talks about your mind making the adjustments after you have been shooting for a while. Is this not instinctive or what ever you call it. No all you can do is talk about the book in a negative way anytime someone brings it up. Viper has helped more people on these forums than you have ever talked to about archery. I wish I had the book before I started. Pray tell me where you can buy a book with all this in it. O yea Jimmy is right. And nobody has his post blocked.


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## MGF (Oct 27, 2012)

What did I miss? Wasn't Ken's original point more to do with availability?

When I think of a coach, I tend to think of somebody you meet with a fairly regular basis.


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## vabowdog (Dec 13, 2007)

Ken, right when I think you can't go no lower..."you Totally redeem yourself"

This is absolutely the dumbest post ever posted here 


I think this whole thread should be put in the "Hall of Fame"


Dewayne


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## ozzypop (Sep 23, 2010)

O yea Sharp about G. Fred I can't do that hunch over thing he does either it hurts my back. But he has explained to many people very well what instinctive is by talking about for first then the shooting. I am rereading for the third time his last book. You ought to try it.


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

I do not need to read Vipers book to know he does not believe in instinctive shooting - he has outright said it many times on this and other forums - simple as that.

Jimmy - in your library of books on archery - I suggest you add The Mental Mechanics of Archery and re-read - With Winning in Mind - they say the same thing I just said that you claim no one else is saying

But....as usual with these forums - the point has been lost.

Once again - for a guy who wants to shoot a tradbow instinctively for the primary purpose of hunting - there are very few "coaches" out there available to assist someon on a regular basis.

What is amazing is that VA and Jimmy would even argue to the contrary of this point when they are the first ones to point out that almost no one aims instinctively at any of the shoots they go to and that supposedly only Rick and myself do well shooting instinctively - though they always forget to mention World Champs - Scott Langley and Sean Callanan - but the point is - that if there are sooo few of us that shoot instincdtively well - how is it that you can at the same time argue against my statement that there are very few coaches for someone who wants to shoot a tradbow instinctively - that logic does belong in a hall of fame somewhere - maybe the "I have to argue with sharp no matter what he posts hall"


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

do a poll - how many guys have a coach - lol - I am sure that the majority do - lol


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## jcs-bowhunter (Jul 7, 2007)

vabowdog said:


> Ken to answer your question about who I would send someone to to help them "learn" to shoot instinctively would be Rod Jenkins class...Rod can certainly help anyone with any problems they have with form and they would have to take it from there.
> 
> 
> Dewayne


+1 on Rod Jenkins as I attended one of his clinics. I know people who know people so I can occasionally cross paths with him when he is in the area. But to Sharpies point I've looked a little bit around the Grand Rapids Michigan area and have not found anyone. I've accidently sent a couple messages to a guy in Grand Rapids Minnesota though


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

jcs - and Rod Jenkins is not a coach - he offers clinics - and his clinics are not even one on one - so if anthing - they would be less effective (according to those who say clinics are no good and recommend coaches) than Ricks clinic - which is one on one.


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## jcs-bowhunter (Jul 7, 2007)

Whether coach or clinic I learned much from Rod as a newbie and therefore the MBB3 video is a much more valuable tool to me. I also got some 1:1 time with him that was outside of the clinic. So maybe we'll call it "lite coaching" by your description. Wish I could get an hour with him twice a month, but Alabama is a long drive.


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## ozzypop (Sep 23, 2010)

As vabowdog said dumbest. And keeps getting dumber.


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## ozzypop (Sep 23, 2010)

You are the worst advertisement for Ricks clinics. He should pay you to not mention his name. I would not go if it was free after listening to you.


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## vabowdog (Dec 13, 2007)

Ken...have you ever looked to see all the other people that me and Jimmy "argue" with???? Let me help....NOBODY!!!!

Ive never seen anyone sing the praises of another man the way you do for Rick....dang what is it does he pay you a nickel every time you mention his name on the Internet????

This whole thread has been nothing but a Rick Welch is the Only one....of course only slightly ahead of you...like Jimmy said since you've got the patent on instinctive then why don't you start a coaching Class???


Dewayne


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## airwolf (Jul 28, 2005)

sharpbroadhead said:


> I do not need to read Vipers book to know he does not believe in instinctive shooting - he has outright said it many times on this and other forums - simple as that.
> 
> Jimmy - in your library of books on archery - I suggest you add The Mental Mechanics of Archery and re-read - With Winning in Mind - they say the same thing I just said that you claim no one else is saying
> 
> ...


hard to argue with that...
havent found anyone around here to teach me, everyone just wants to teach fundamentals, that i can learn from vipers book , lol.


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## Jimmy Blackmon (Sep 9, 2010)

Ken, I'm getting confused. I agree that the only guy I know in the country that teaches and shoots instinctive is Rick. Confirmed. Now add you Scott and Sean to the list and you have 4 guys. HHW is no longer a class so everyone is in the TRAD or Recurve class now. Should make for fun shooting. I concur with you 100% that there are no instinctive archery coaches to go to. I don't know of any gap coaches either come to think of it. I also don't know of any stringwalking barebow coaches. So we have a growing number of trad shooters and no one to teach aiming techniques other than videos and a few books. 

I do not disagree with you one iota. I concur with your statement that there are no coaches to teach one how to shoot instinctively.


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## cossack (May 11, 2011)

I'd offer that there are not many "instinctive" coaches for the same reason that nobody seems to be able to clearly define what "instinctive" is much less how to teach it. The best I've gleaned is "Get your form down, look only at the spot you want to hit and release." Consistent "Form" seems to still be the key component in this process and any good coach, instinctive shooter or not, can assist with that. Insofar as instinctive aiming (or lack thereof) All I've heard is burn a hole in the spot with your eye and release. Not something one really needs to have a coach constantly repeating. Now for the big form aspect, yes, absolutely a coach would be an asset given all the mechanics involved. But this is all just an opinion from a rookie perspective.


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

Rick is not the only one with an instinctive clinic - Asbell has one too.

Once again - contrary to VA's ideas - this thread was about the idea of recommending coaches when there are very few.

I am an NFAA archery coach for our school archery program - does that make me qualified to coach Jimmy on how to be the best 300 Round shooter he can be? hardly

There are lists of NFAA and I am sure other clubs in each state - but does that mean that they are quailified to teach a guy that wants to learn to shoot a tradbow instinctively for hunting - not necessarily - in fact - likely not.

My point in this thread was to illustrate the absurdity of the advice that I constantly see being offered in here about "get a coach" - when in reality - for most all of us that is not even possible.

So - if coaches are not possible - what are the next best things?

I would think if one can afford to go to a clinic - whether it be Welch or Jenkins or (I can't believe I am saying it) - Asbell - if they are shooting the style you want - and you can afford it - a clinic would be at the top of the list.

Next...

Books

Videos

the net

but the idea of finding a coach is so remote for most of us that it is really useless advice for almost all of us


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## vabowdog (Dec 13, 2007)

Well 3 pages later what have we all learned??

There's no coaches to teach the ones that won't listen anyhow!!!


Since there's no HHW class this year it will be interesting to see how those guys will fare being thrown in the mix of REC.


Dewayne


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

VA - who is your coach - please - share his name and number - maybe there are guys who live near you that need a coach.

What is with you and Jimmy and your comments toward the HHW class - you seem to be implying that these guys are not worthy of their titles - hey anytime you want to grab a 60lb or more bow and shoot against them - have at it see - how you do.

BTW - we really don't need to know how they will fare in the other classes - they shot on the same ranges - so all one needs to do is look at scores.

In 2009 when Sean Callanan won the HHW World championship - his score was 357 - in the recurve class he would have finished in 9th.

In 2010 when Scott Langley won the HHW World Championship - his score was 358 - in the recurve class he would have finished 4th - you scored 327 and finished 18th

In 2011 when Scott Langley won the HHW World Championship - his score was 543 - in the recurve class he would have finished 2nd - higher than your score of 531 (5th place) and Jimmy's score of 515 (9th place) - he also beat my 4th place position and score of 531.

These guys earned their titles and are top shooters in any class - and are out there, beyond any shadow of a doubt shooting their hunting bows at a bowhunting club.

So against you, Jimmy, and myself - it appears that Scott Langley will fare pretty good - even with a bow that is likely 30lbs or more heavier in draw than what you guys are shooting.


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## Jimmy Blackmon (Sep 9, 2010)

Okay, everybody happy, happy, happy. I've gotta go. Alabama is playing football against somebody.


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## Demmer (Dec 1, 2012)

I thought shooting instinctive was based on your own instincts. How can someone teach your own instincts?


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

Demmer - shooting a bow instinctively is aiming at a subconscious level - the definition of instinct as it relates to archery is not necessarily inborn - it is more of the 2nd definition - as you can see below:

From the Merriam-Webster Medical Dictionary:

Main Entry: in·stinct
Pronunciation: in-sti(k)t
Function: noun

1 : a largely inheritable and unalterable tendency of an organism to make a complex and specific response to environmental stimuli without involving reason

2 : behavior that is mediated by reactions below the conscious level _(subconscious) - below = sub_


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## benofthehood (May 18, 2011)

Demmer ... its about surrendering to the subconscious or something ... it ain't that hard ... 

thats why I go to basketball training for my archery because its just like throwing a free throw or something ... 

but in reality , Unless I go to Ricky Welch's , I'll never ever really know ...... :shade:


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## Jimmy Blackmon (Sep 9, 2010)

Alabama scored so I can take a break. I'm not taking anything away from those guys. They are IBO World Champions and I congratulate them for it. I was serious in saying that it will make the REC or TRAD class even deeper. I did support removing it because who has ever heard of a class based on the weight of your class. Shoot whatever weight you want but the equipment is what matters and should be regulated.

Oh and this isn't about my scores so don't start comparing me. I suck. Just a hacker promoting the sport.


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

Well - being that the IBO is a BOWHUNTING organization - I can see why guys who hunt very large game and use very heavy draw bows would want a class to compete on a more level playing field than against guys with 30lb target bows that are obviously not used for hunting. I thought that the class was a good idea and I respected that class the most out of all of them. In order to shoot a bow that is 60lbs or more in draw competitively and well - takes quite a commitment and requires that the shooters be in top physical shape - I know that I could not compete with that heavy of a bow - at least not in the physical shape I am in now. 

That class was something that set the IBO apart from all the other target organizations - it was truly a bowhunter class. I am sad to see it go.


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## benofthehood (May 18, 2011)

sheesh ... what a hack Jimmy is ....... lol ....... he must be cheatin killing all those deer with feminine poundage weight bows .....


PS 3D is just light weight girly bows being shot from the kiddy stakes


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

glad that my threads can be turned into "silliness"


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## Matt_Potter (Apr 13, 2010)

benofthehood said:


> sheesh ... what a hack Jimmy is ....... lol ....... he must be cheatin killing all those deer with feminine poundage weight bows .....
> 
> 
> PS 3D is just light weight girly bows being shot from the kiddy stakes


I instinctively don't like missing so I have an aiming system - does that make me an instinctive archer??

Just helping out my buddy Ben 

Mstt


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## Matt_Potter (Apr 13, 2010)

Ken

You started the thread looking for a reaction and you got it. 

Matt


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

I started the thread looking for who all these coaches are that guys were recommending to a man who wanted to learn how to shoot a tradbow instinctively for hunting - so far - - not one has been named that is practical for this man - or practically anyone to be coached by.


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## Jimmy Blackmon (Sep 9, 2010)

Matt_Potter said:


> Ken
> 
> You started the thread looking for a reaction and you got it.
> 
> Matt


now that is probably the most accurate thing written in the entire thread and EVERYONE knows in their heart that it's true.


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## vabowdog (Dec 13, 2007)

Ken, when I showed up in 2010 at the Trad Worlds I was proud to have finished 18th...I knew I didn't have a prayer of finishing better..I had ALOT of issues...

My coaches name and number don't exist...I watched Rod Jenkins on MBB and he helped me ALOT...

I never said the HHW guys wasn't worthy of their titles they beat everyone that showed up...how do I think they will fare this year if theynshow up...only time will tell...

Wasn't at the top of my game in 2010 in 2011 I was better and finished 5 th only 1 X behind you..3 rd at the Worlds in 2011 and 2012...

And then came the Classic where I shot OK but it was still good enough to win and beat you know who....Ken I will brag on any good shooter...not just the two that came out of you know who's clinic...I think you may have a Bromance going on there.



Dewayne


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## benofthehood (May 18, 2011)

Ken , if we were talking about something genuinely serious like IFAA Field or hunting deer by stalking then it would be a valuable discussion , but "instinctive " coaching ? 

Man you are bored .....

But shooting rubber animals from 15 yards away , or hunting deer from elevated treestands isn't really about archery excellence , its about taking the easy way out ...

I know that because I read it in a book 

I have a new aiming system coming out that will revolutionize the world of internet archery and remove the need for clinics and coaching 

..... its call "*Asbelch ... aiming when your not really aiming* " 

its a combination of bending my knees, shooting uber EFOC arrows with Rage expandables , wearing Fedora's and having people spruke my wares and training systems on the internet


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

wow - I like how people know my heart and why I started threads - what reaction do these guys think I was hoping for - proof that there are very few coaches available to trad shooters who want to shoot instinctively and bowhunt - well - I got it - this thread proves it. Even VA doesn't have a coach and never had one


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

taking the easy way out - oh brother - I am done - now bowhunters and 3D shooters are "taking the easy way out" - unflippin' believable - well - I hope that those who are not baised can see what this thread illustrates - people bashing clinics and recommending coaches that don't exist!


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## benofthehood (May 18, 2011)

Ken ...

got ya ......

:tongue:


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## Bowsage (Apr 29, 2008)

Mike Fedora


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## 2413gary (Apr 10, 2008)

Sharp if I name a certified coach that can teach Trad instinctive shooting will you change the subject?


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## Bowsage (Apr 29, 2008)

And I drive to Pa.


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## Matt_Potter (Apr 13, 2010)

2413gary said:


> Sharp if I name a certified coach that can teach Trad instinctive shooting will you change the subject?


Oh that would to much fun


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## vabowdog (Dec 13, 2007)

Ken answer me 1 question since you decided to pick on me....

WHY would I even need a Coach???

I beat the man that you say is unbeatable.....the greatest coach that ever lived....the greatest instinctive archer that God ever breathed life in...although until yesterday I thought he and I shot so differently.....no wonder he shoots so good he shoots the same way I do......


So once again why would I need a coach???



Just wondering..

Dewayne


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## 2413gary (Apr 10, 2008)

2413gary said:


> Sharp if I name a certified coach that can teach Trad instinctive shooting will you change the subject?


Sharp I am still waiting


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## vabowdog (Dec 13, 2007)

Sharp...there's now two of us waiting for an answer!!

By the way I shoot 43# for 3-D and 48 for hunting so they are not shooting 30lbs more than I am....12 at the most...


Dewayne


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## Jimmy Blackmon (Sep 9, 2010)

vabowdog said:


> Sharp...there's now two of us waiting for an answer!!
> 
> By the way I shoot 43# for 3-D and 48 for hunting so they are not shooting 30lbs more than I am....12 at the most...
> 
> ...


I don't know anyone who shoots 30# for 3D DeWayne.


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

There is absolutely NOTHING a coach can do to teach an archer how to aim Totally Instinctively other than just basically pointing and shooting. There are no mathmatic equations analytically made to determine gaps. Just as with coaching a professional pitcher or quarterback...a coach teaches form...not aiming. Aiming comes through practice and executing consistent form.

What a coach can do is teach an archer how to attain and maintain good form through specific changes in their form and than engrain those changes with specific practice techniques. 

A good coach can also describe the general advantages and disadvantages of each and every aiming technique that exists and exactly what seperates the different techniques into their own definitions. 

A good coach will also recognize the specific goals, abilites and personality of an archer to better assist them in the direction they need to follow.

A good coach can also recognize when an archer doesn't need to change something specific and works with them on it rather than having them change for the sake of thinking it's better because that was what was taught to them in target archery school :wink:

Based on these truths....an archer wanting to learn how to aim Instinctively does NOT need a coach that teaches Instinctive Aiming to learn Instinctive Aiming.

Ray :shade:


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## 2413gary (Apr 10, 2008)

Sharp where for art thou? I really do know a coach. A certified Olympic coach. Don't leave everybody hangin after 4 pages


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## Warbow (Apr 18, 2006)

BLACK WOLF said:


> There is absolutely NOTHING a coach can do to teach an archer how to aim Totally Instinctively other than just basically pointing and shooting. There are no mathmatic equations analytically made to determine gaps.


Actually, there are.  The geometry and ballistics for aiming off an arrow point are exactly the same as aiming off the pin of a sight. The arrow point serves as a non-adjustable sight. If you care to measure needed offsets and angles and compare them to a reference shot you can calculate the gaps for other distances--but why would you when it is much easier to shot at different distances and determine gap empirically?


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## vabowdog (Dec 13, 2007)

Jimmy..wait one minute my daughter when she was 12 placed 2nd at the IBO Trad Worlds youth division and she was only shooting 26#......

Do you think I should mail her plaque back to the IBO????


This whole thread was about nothing but an advertisement for RW...from his #1 fan...


Dewayne


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

Warbow said:


> Actually, there are.  The geometry and ballistics for aiming off an arrow point are exactly the same as aiming off the pin of a sight. The arrow point serves as a non-adjustable sight. If you care to measure needed offsets and angles and compare them to a reference shot you can calculate the gaps for other distances--but why would you when it is much easier to shot at different distances and determine gap empirically?


What does consciously doing geometry, calculating ballistics, measuring offsets and angles, calculating gaps have anything to do with learning to aim Instinctively?

Ray :shade:


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## Matt_Potter (Apr 13, 2010)

When you think about it shooting a 25 lb bow for 3D would be HARD a greater gage of an archers skill than just shooting your hunting limbs. 

Matt


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## cossack (May 11, 2011)

BLACK WOLF said:


> There is absolutely NOTHING a coach can do to teach an archer how to aim Totally Instinctively other than just basically pointing and shooting. There are no mathmatic equations analytically made to determine gaps. Just as with coaching a professional pitcher or quarterback...a coach teaches form...not aiming. Aiming comes through practice and executing consistent form.
> 
> What a coach can do is teach an archer how to attain and maintain good form through specific changes in their form and than engrain those changes with specific practice techniques.
> 
> ...


Bingo: That's what I was attempting to say earlier. Consistency in form/release is (In My Humble Opinion) the same across the board no matter what aiming method used and this is what any coach would likely be keying on to improve consistency. So what, pray tell, is left for an "instinctive coach" to teach outside of focus on your spot and release......????


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## Jimmy Blackmon (Sep 9, 2010)

As my high school buddy just said about the game and I think it applies here, "I've been to 2 worlds fairs, a rattlesnake round up, 3 daytona speed weeks, been to a church of snake handlers, but I have never seen nothing like this."


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

cossack said:


> Bingo: That's what I was attempting to say earlier. Consistency in form/release is (In My Humble Opinion) the same across the board no matter what aiming method used and this is what any coach would likely be keying on to improve consistency. So what, pray tell, is left for an "instinctive coach" to teach outside of focus on your spot and release......????


:thumbs_up

Ray :shade:


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

Gary, are you totally missing the point - if you can name one coach in the country how does that change my point that for the VAST MAJORITY of guys coaching is not even possible - and is therefore pointless advice in most all cases? BTW - I never said that there were none - I said that there were almost none - remember I originally asked for one from each State - i mean if people are going to go in here and constantly tell guys to get a coach - one would think that there is at least one in every State!

Regarding the idea that there is nothing one can do to teach instinctive - I suggest that you talk to Dr. Jay Kidwell - author of Instinctive Archery Insights - or for that matter any instinctive shooter


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## vabowdog (Dec 13, 2007)

Pointless advice.........hhmmmm.......


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## 2413gary (Apr 10, 2008)

Ca. Don Rabska


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## Matt_Potter (Apr 13, 2010)

Ken

I disagree I can think of 4 high level compound shooters and a very good fita field shooter with in an hour of me. All of whom i would be happy to have coach me. You just have to think out of the box and get over the whole trad instinctive thing - archery is archery form is form. 

Matt


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

sharpbroadhead said:


> Regarding the idea that there is nothing one can do to teach instinctive - I suggest that you talk to Dr. Jay Kidwell - author of Instinctive Archery Insights - or for that matter any instinctive shooter


For one....I aim Totally Instinctively when I feel the shot requires me to.

I've also read Dr. Kidwell's book...so maybe you can refresh my memory on how you teach an archer to aim Instinctively other than through practice techniques by just pointing and shooting while trying to make sure the archer is putting complete faith into their hand and eye coordination???

Ray :shade:


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## 2413gary (Apr 10, 2008)

Matt_Potter said:


> Ken
> 
> I disagree I can think of 4 high level compound shooters and a very good fita field shooter with in an hour of me. All of whom i would be happy to have coach me. You just have to think out of the box and get over the whole trad instinctive thing - archery is archery form is form.
> 
> Matt


Wow how could you possibly think someone who doesn't shoot Trad could teach instinctive shooting :mg:


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## benofthehood (May 18, 2011)

Matt_Potter said:


> Ken
> 
> I disagree I can think of 4 high level compound shooters and a very good fita field shooter with in an hour of me. All of whom i would be happy to have coach me. You just have to think out of the box and get over the whole trad instinctive thing - *archery is archery form is form*.
> 
> Matt


My tall friend has hit the proverbial nail on the head .

I shoot my trad gear instinctively most of the time [ distance shots in Field and Target I gap ] , and my coach was a FITA coach .......... and would be again when I get off my bum and get back into it .

form and shot execution trump aiming methods every day of the week and twice on Sundays ... and they do so instinctively


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## Warbow (Apr 18, 2006)

BLACK WOLF said:


> What does consciously doing geometry, calculating ballistics, measuring offsets and angles, calculating gaps have anything to do with learning to aim Instinctively?
> 
> Ray :shade:


I was responding to your post literally, not recommending that people actually do the gap calculations.


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## steve morley (Dec 24, 2005)

Sharp has just assumed the EVERYBODY starting Archery wants to learn to shoot Instinctively, most of the newbies asking for help here rarely mention aiming because they dont even know what their aiming options are, only that they want to get to a good shooting standard without picking up any bad habits along the way, any qualified coach Fita/NFAA can do that and once the basics of form are acquired then its time to learn/refine an aiming system. in my opinion recommending newbies to find a coach on this forum is still valid and I will continue to do so. To my knowledge anybody posting said I want to learn Instinctive aiming have I ever suggested go find an Fita/NFAA coach, only to the people who said they have form issues or want to get off to the best possible start in the sport.

The USA Archery coach link doesnt show many Coaches in Wisconsin (20 is still better than none) but Florida shows well over a 100, so there are coaches out there to help newbies get off to a solid start in the sport and not pick up bad form habits.

This whole thread was a pointless exercise by Ken in looking for fault in peoples reccomendations on finding a coach.


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

Warbow said:


> I was responding to your post literally, not recommending that people actually do the gap calculations.


Ahhhh...well in that case...than it should be obvious we both agree that a coach can in fact teach an archer how to calculate gaps, angles, offsets, ballistics and geometry as they basically pertain to any other aiming technique besides Instinctive Aiming :wink:

Ray :shade:


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## itbeso (Jul 6, 2005)

2413gary said:


> Sharp if I name a certified coach that can teach Trad instinctive shooting will you change the subject?


Gary, don't even go there because how can you teach something that doesn't even exist. That is why there are no coaches who teach so called instinctive shooting. So called "instinctive shooting" is just gap shooting without full recognition of what a gap entails. Sharp shoots a gap, he just doesn't or can't admit to it . The reason noone teaches instinctive shooting is because they would be broke soon. There is no instinctive archer who is going to be a world champion, period. There are no instinctive archers who are going to be national champions unless everyone in their class professes to be instinctive. And now that recurve shooting has caught the attention of more finger shooters, the competition just got stiffer. Enjoy your fourth place 15 minutes of fame Ken


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## itbeso (Jul 6, 2005)

BLACK WOLF said:


> What does consciously doing geometry, calculating ballistics, measuring offsets and angles, calculating gaps have anything to do with learning to aim Instinctively?
> 
> Ray :shade:


x2


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## rsarns (Sep 23, 2008)

grantmac said:


> State indoor record of 282 14x after 1.5 years of deciding I wanted to be competitive, previous archery was all overbowed arrow flinging. No coach; only references were other archers (Thanks Ren), STS and forums.
> The book answered all the technical questions that I had.
> 
> I think if I'd gone to a decent JOAD coach 5 years back I'd be way ahead of where I am now.
> ...


Grant,
You just needed a push in the right direction, all the dedication you showed allowed you to succeed! On top of that, shooting with you every day pushed me to new personal and setting the State records for me... thanks!


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## grantmac (May 31, 2007)

rsarns said:


> Grant,
> You just needed a push in the right direction, all the dedication you showed allowed you to succeed! On top of that, shooting with you every day pushed me to new personal and setting the State records for me... thanks!


You got that right Ren, unless an archer gets to spend time shooting around people who will challenge them to get better. I wish I could shoot the State indoor again this year but its just not in the cards. Maybe next year I can get something sorted out and try for that Multi-color record.


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## SteveB (Dec 18, 2003)

vabowdog said:


> Pointless advice.........hhmmmm.......


Amazing isn't it.
But still not surprising.


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## UrbanDeerSlayer (Feb 10, 2012)

I'm looking forward to hitting the IBO circuit this year. Should be an opportunity to get some "free" coaching, LOL! Seriously, I'm hoping to learn a thing or two and nothing like some good competition to sharpen your focus. 

That being said, in my short time in this sport it has become self evident that Aiming is nothing without good, consistent, repeatable Form. If your Form is locked in, you will drill the arrows on target. This is where coaching would be most beneficial, IMO. I'm sure my learning curve would be shorter if I had access to a coach in the neighborhood. Instead, I bounce thoughts and ideas off of the AT brotherhood, and my trad bud Kegan. THat works too!! :RockOn:


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## Greysides (Jun 10, 2009)

The problem is not finding coaches who would accept instinctive archers but finding instinctive archers who would accept coaches.


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## Bender (Dec 6, 2006)

Yes, I don't understand the hang up on it having to be a coach that teaches "instinctive" archery. Regardless of style there are certain basic elements of good shooting that, within slight variation, are fairly constant simply because as human beings we're pretty much all built on the same platform.

Boy there's an oxymoron if I ever heard one. 

I mean if its an instinct it doesn't need to be "taught" to begin with right?


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

All the talk - how about posting the names and numbers of these coaches that everyone knows. Since everyone thinks getting a coach is a great idea - there should be a coach within a couple hours of nearly everyone in this forum - so this list ought to be long. But if the majority of us live more than three hours from a coach - telling us to get a coach is pointless. We can only do what almost everyone in here has done themselves - even guys like VA who are bashing me for pointing out what he himself has done - we learned on our own from various sources -clinics, books, videos, the net, etc.... - but never having had a personal coach - and I am sure where VA lives there are coaches - yet he never had one, but then pokes fun at my posts.

I live 2 hours from any city that has more than 10,000 people - the biggest city near me is over 2 hours away and it has less than 40,000 people - my whole county only has 11,000 people - I bet there are coaches just waiting to coach me and other trad guys in my area - right?

I have never met any archer that I know of that had a personal coach (i may have met some at competitions - but I never heard them say they had a personal coach) - I have met lots of guys who went to clinics, read books, watched videos, etc... to bash the idea of going to a clinic in favor of having a personal coach is absurd - as the vast majority of us will never have or be able to have a coach - but a clinic - many of us can attend and benefit from - especially a one on one clinic.

Who is Jimmy's coach? Who is Steve B's personal Coach? We know VA Bow doesn't have and never had a personal coach, who is Black Wolf's personal coach? Who is grant's personal coach? with all this advice to guys who want to go to clinics that they would be better off going to personal coaches - these guys on the forum should certianly have personal coaches and names and phone numbers to share - shouldn't they?

And the idea of going to a coach that does not even believe anyone shoots instinctively if you want to shoot instinctively - is abusrd - like I said - that is like sending your kid to learn about Christianity from an athiest.


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## itbeso (Jul 6, 2005)

Greysides said:


> The problem is not finding coaches who would accept instinctive archers but finding instinctive archers who would accept coaches.


Funny, sad, but true. Great observation.


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

bender - words can have more than one meaning - and instinct is one such word - and I am sure you have seen this definition before, since I have posted it several times - but in case you have not - here it is again - from the 

Merriam-Webster Medical Dictionary

Main Entry: in·stinct
Pronunciation: in-sti(k)t
Function: noun

1 : a largely inheritable and unalterable tendency of an organism to make a complex and specific response to environmental stimuli without involving reason
2 :* behavior that is mediated by reactions below the conscious level* (sub=below - "subconscious)

how does a basketball coach teach a basketball player to make the shot? How does a football player get coached on how to throw a ball to a running target? Is he gaught to get out a calculator or slide rule to calculate the angles and timing of the throw - does he use a range finder calculate distance, does he use a radar gun to calculate speed? 

A person who wants to shoot instinctively can learn how the subconscious works, what feedback is good and what feedback is bad towards allowing the subconscious to do it's job, they can learn what methods allow the subconscious to function its best and in the shortest amount of time, etc....

There are books on this subject:

The Mental Mechanics of Archery

Instinctive Archery Insights

With Winning in Mind


etc...

the idea that if one shoots instinctively that there is nothing that can be learned is absurd - and is no wonder that there is soooooooo much of a lack of understanding about this method of shooting in these forums and why such bad advice is given to guys who want to shoot instinctively


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

true - really Ibetso - based on what? Lets see - according to Jimmy and VA Bow there are very few instinctive archers at the IBO - everyone is a gap shooters or some other type of conscious aimer - yet the instinctive shooters that do show up - myself, Rick Welch, Scott Langley, Sean Callanan - we score in the top ten consistently - so out of hundreds of guys and only a handful are instinctive - and yet we finish consistently in the top 10 - that would seem to indicate that we learn and develop our skills at a higher level than "gap shooters" since by the numbers, a much higher percentage of us do better consistently than others


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## mcharles (Nov 11, 2009)

Jimmy Blackmon said:


> As my high school buddy just said about the game and I think it applies here, "I've been to 2 worlds fairs, a rattlesnake round up, 3 daytona speed weeks, been to a church of snake handlers, but I have never seen nothing like this."


Me too, and I've also been to a goat roping...


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## itbeso (Jul 6, 2005)

sharpbroadhead said:


> true - really Ibetso - based on what? Lets see - according to Jimmy and VA Bow there are very few instinctive archers at the IBO - everyone is a gap shooters or some other type of conscious aimer - yet the instinctive shooters that do show up - myself, Rick Welch, Scott Langley, Sean Callanan - we score in the top ten consistently - so out of hundreds of guys and only a handful are instinctive - and yet we finish consistently in the top 10 - that would seem to indicate that we learn and develop our skills at a higher level than "gap shooters" since by the numbers, a much higher percentage of us do better consistently than others


Ken, all kidding aside, I see that you are one of the more accomplished posters on this forum. My personal belief is that there is no one who shoots instinctive. I know what the concept is and I would challenge anyone on the planet to a competition using that concept. However, It is my contention that you and others who shoot the instinctive syle have put in so much time learning that style that you are indeed shooting a learned system.I also believe that if you were ever to try to learn a good gap system that your archery would improve drastically. One of your main arguments is that your style is better for hunting. Again, I will dispute that. My gap system has been extremely effective in the field and I suspect it has been for many others also. We, as target archers and hunters, strive for consistency and accuracy and I am a firm believer that instinctively learned archery can be accurate but not consistently accurate. You fight the good fight on here but Methinks you do so just to get rises out of everyone. Your experience could better be spent being constructive rather than destructive. JMHO.


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## centershot (Sep 13, 2002)

...


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## vabowdog (Dec 13, 2007)

Ken...since Rick and myself shoot exactly the same now I can be included in your little group.....now my life is complete.

Personally I wouldn't go to a Instinctive coach...I don't care how many trophies he's won or animals he's killed....I'm not good at shooting instinctive....I know that because I tried it for 3 years and sucked!!!!just like 90% of all instinctive shooters....

I needed a method...I didn't just want a method I NEEDED a method to be competitive...I tried the other way and I'm just not good enough....now that I've got a method I can be good enough...


Dewayne


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## Matt_Potter (Apr 13, 2010)

I think we all need some time under a sun lamp

Matt


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## grantmac (May 31, 2007)

Greysides said:


> The problem is not finding coaches who would accept instinctive archers but finding instinctive archers who would accept coaches.


This is very true. No use going to a coach if all you get is what you wanted to hear.

Grant


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## itbeso (Jul 6, 2005)

Matt_Potter said:


> I think we all need some time under a sun lamp
> 
> Matt


Party pooper.:teeth:


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## Yewselfbow (Jan 28, 2006)

....this whole thread reminds me of a scene from Macbeth

Macbeth - Act 5, Scene 5
"Life's but a walking shadow; a poor player,
That struts and frets his hour upon the stage,
And then is heard no more: it is a tale
Told by a fool, full of sound and fury,
Signifying nothing."


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

LOL...we have YET to hear from sharp any specific ways a coach teaches a student to specifically aim 'instinctively' other than through trial and error during practice.

Ray :shade:


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

hmmmm - still no names and numbers of the coaches that are so widely avialable that anyone who wants one should be seeing on a regular basis.

Since everyone has their ideas on my motiviation for this thread - the motivation was to either gather the names of these coaches and share them with everyone - OR - as I suspected, expose that everytime someone asks abouit going to Rick Welches shooting school and they are told to that they would be better off going to a personal coach - is in reality, useless advice for most everyone that it is given - since there are not coaches available for most of us - and the reality that most shooters do not have a personal coach.

I have asked several times now for guys to give the name and number of the personal coach that they use - nobody has given one.


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## Bigjono (Apr 21, 2009)

Well if you're going to get all Shakespearian on us

"To be instinctive, or not to be instinctive: that is the question:
Whether 'tis nobler in the mind to suffer
The slings and arrows of outrageous miss fortune,
Or to take arms against a sea of gappers".


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## Matt_Potter (Apr 13, 2010)

BLACK WOLF said:


> LOL...we have YET to hear from sharp any specific ways a coach teaches a student to specifically aim 'instinctively' other than through trial and error during practice.
> 
> Ray :shade:


Hey I still want to know why an instinctive archer like Ken or Rick needs such a high anchor - a low anchor is MUCH more efficient.

Matt


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## itbeso (Jul 6, 2005)

Bigjono said:


> Well if you're going to get all Shakespearian on us
> 
> "To be instinctive, or not to be instinctive: that is the question:
> Whether 'tis nobler in the mind to suffer
> ...


DUDE!!!!:teeth:


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

This is getting silly - I have posted specific examples of how it could be taught and now I am being asked again- I have given the medical definition of instinct an that it has nothing to do with whether it is learned or not - yet Itbeso still insists on only using the first definition of the word - not the 2nd.

I set out to discover if there really were so many coaches available since a certain number of guys like to always bring up going to a personal coach as being a much better option than going to Rick Welch's school - (note that they never bring that up when someone talks of Rod Jenkins school - or Viper's book) - and as I suspected - this is empty advise - and simply an attempt by them to discourage someone form Rick's School for one reason or another.

Now it is turning into a pissing match about instinctive


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## Jimmy Blackmon (Sep 9, 2010)

Gapped him at 24 paces.


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## grantmac (May 31, 2007)

Matt_Potter said:


> Hey I still want to know why an instinctive archer like Ken or Rick needs such a high anchor - a low anchor is MUCH more efficient.
> 
> Matt


I thought I was a gapper for the last several years, ever since I switched the 3 under. But according to that clip of RW I've been instinctive all along! The funny part is how much better my instinctive archery has gotten since I moved my anchor up to where Ken and Rick have it. Sure its not the most effective way to draw a bow or maintain backtension, but it sure sharpens those instincts.

Its got nothing to do with my 30 yd point on, no sir.

-Grant


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

Just what exactly does this have to do with this thread?




Jimmy Blackmon said:


> Gapped him at 24 paces.


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

sharpbroadhead said:


> This is getting silly - I have posted specific examples of how it could be taught and now I am being asked again


Please...if you could be sooo generous as to PLEASE post or re-post exactly what a coach can do to TEACH an archer HOW to aim Totally Instinctively.

Please be specific and number each one.

Thank you,

Ray :shade:


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## Matt_Potter (Apr 13, 2010)

Jimmy Blackmon said:


> Gapped him at 24 paces.


Nice pic Jimmy

what is that bow braced at??

Matt


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## vabowdog (Dec 13, 2007)

Blackwolf.....PLEASE we all know that you do the hokie pokie and you turn yourself around,

that's what it's all about....


What a ridiculous thread......




Dewayne


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

fine - I will play along, not that I think Black Wolf is truly interested, but here is what I posted in response to the question of how one would teach instinctive shooting - and it has a specific example within the context - post #38 in this thread - so had he been following what was said - he would have seen it - just like the guys who keep insisting that instinctive is an unlearned process would have seen the two times that I posted the medical dictionary definition of the term - but anyhow - here is what was already said in the thread - but hey - maybe I will just spost a pic of me with a dead squirrel - which has nothing at all to do with the thread - and all will be cool:

_Regarding how to train a guy to shoot instinctively - how do clinics teach basketball players to make a basket or football players to accurately throw a ball - there is more too it than just form - it is understanding how the mind works - it is understanding how to apply what our mind is cabable of to the shot, it is learning to trust your subconscious, it is learning how to avoid common mistakes made by many who try instinctive shooting.

here is an example - you are wanting to shoot instinctively and are practicing - you are having a day where your form never feels quite right, but you keep working at it and your arrows are going all over the place - suddenly you make a good shot - smack in the center of the bull - but you know it did not feel right and your form was not right - you have to not allow yourself to be pleased with that shot - if you are pleased because you made it - even though you had bad form - your subconscious will try to duplicate that shot - bad form and all! 

it is knowing how to practice, when to practice, when not to practice, how to recover from a bad shot and a good shot, how to mentally prepare for the shot, how to train your subconscious in the most efficient way possible, etc...

Believe it or not - but there is a lot to be learned and understood to be a good instinctive shot - and one of the most difficult things to learn - or master is the ability to surrender the shot to the subconscious - this is VERY difficult for some people to do - but with someone there drilling it into your head with every shot to surrender the shot - and you start to see that it works - it helps people begin to trust and surrender the shot.

I don't know what Rick teaches or doesn't teach at his clinics - I never attended but I can tell you that there is more to it than just learning good form and looking at your spot - and the more you understand about the subconsious as it relates to archery - the more effective of an archer you will be. _


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## J. Wesbrock (Dec 17, 2003)

I wanted Itbeso to coach me, but I can't get him out of the tar pit. <- dinosaur reference


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

if you want to call that "hokie pokie" that is all fine and good - ole VA now believes and has something on Rick because he beat him in some tournament and we are constantly reminded of this fact- ya know what - EVERYONE has bad days - and to keep bringing this up is really getting old, it does not prove that you are a better shot, archer, or person than Rick - anymore than me beating you or Jimmy proves anything about me over you guys - all it proves is that day I got lucky and got you by an (x) and that Jimmy had a bad day - that is all it proves - and you beating Rick only proves that Rick had a bad day or you had a really good day - it proves nothing about your method of aiming over his or your skill over his - and even if you can consistently beat Rick - it does not mean that you have a superior method of shooting or aiming a bow - anymore than the fact that I beat over 90% of the gap shooters at the IBO would prove that instinctive aiming is always a better method than gap shooting!


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

vabowdog said:


> Blackwolf.....PLEASE we all know that you do the hokie pokie and you turn yourself around,
> 
> that's what it's all about....
> 
> ...


vabowdog,

We all know you like to bust a move Gangnam Style :wink:

I think anyone new may really need to see what exactly a coach can teach them to aim Totally Instinctively so they can seriously decide if they need a coach that teaches that specifically or if they can benefit from a coach who doesn't teach that.

Do you have anything else to add constructively to this thread?

Some people may need to see proof that an archer wanting to learn how to aim Instinctively must use a coach who teaches how to aim Instinctively. 

Ray :shade:



Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2


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## Matt_Potter (Apr 13, 2010)

J. Wesbrock said:


> I wanted Itbeso to coach me, but I can't get him out of the tar pit. <- dinosaur reference


And a California reference all in one - well done

Matt


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

I just noticed that there are almost 1400 views to this thread in less than 24 hours - I hope that means that a lot of guys who are not posting have figured out what point I was trying to make and have made, unlike the handful that are posting and attempting to hijack and misdirect from that point.


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

like I said - Blackwolf was not interested in how to teach instinctive - he just wants to argue


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## Matt_Potter (Apr 13, 2010)

sharpbroadhead said:


> fine - I will play along, not that I think Black Wolf is truly interested, but here is what I posted in response to the question of how one would teach instinctive shooting - and it has a specific example within the context - post #38 in this thread - so had he been following what was said - he would have seen it - just like the guys who keep insisting that instinctive is an unlearned process would have seen the two times that I posted the medical dictionary definition of the term - but anyhow - here is what was already said in the thread - but hey - maybe I will just spost a pic of me with a dead squirrel - which has nothing at all to do with the thread - and all will be cool:
> 
> _Regarding how to train a guy to shoot instinctively - how do clinics teach basketball players to make a basket or football players to accurately throw a ball - there is more too it than just form - it is understanding how the mind works - it is understanding how to apply what our mind is cabable of to the shot, it is learning to trust your subconscious, it is learning how to avoid common mistakes made by many who try instinctive shooting.
> 
> ...


OK - I'll buy all that - please explain if it is all done by the subconscious why you need the arrow right under your eye like every gap shooter I have ever seen - a lower anchor is much more efficient.

Matt


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

sharpbroadhead said:


> like I said - Blackwolf was not interested in how to teach instinctive - he just wants to argue


Nope...you need to prove that only a coach who aims Instinctively can teach another archer to aim Instinctively :wink: Otherwise...there are plenty of coaches around that can teach an archer how to become a better Instinctive archer.

Ray :shade:


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## Greysides (Jun 10, 2009)

Matt_Potter said:


> Nice pic Jimmy
> 
> what is that bow braced at??
> 
> Matt


Crown-rump length of the average feral tree rat!


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## centershot (Sep 13, 2002)

"you beating Rick only proves that Rick had a bad day or you had a really good day"

Just what is it that make you think this was a fluke?


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## cossack (May 11, 2011)

Perhaps this is my problem. I've been giving this "focus on the spot and let the shot happen" an honest go for the past six months. I've been fairly consistent with tight groups out to 20 yards. Beyond that, it falls apart.....I can still hit the target but not with any degree of consistency. I shoot split finger because it's the most comfortable to me and I have done so since I was a kid. Even my compound was a finger bow and I shot split. I've tried three under and changing anchor points but it just doesn't feel right to me. I ask this out of wanting to know, not with any sarcasm intended. Are most instinctive archers shooting 3 under?


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

All the things sharp 'tried' to claim only a coach who aims Instinctively can teach....can be taught by ANY coach.

A coach does NOT have to aim Instinctively to teach any of that!

Ray :shade:


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

Matt: a low anchor is not more efficient - a high anchor allows for me to have multiple anchor points in the most comfortable position I have found - I would add pics - but for some reason it is not allowing me


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

center - read the rest of the reply:

"and even if you can consistently beat Rick - it does not mean that you have a superior method of shooting or aiming a bow - anymore than the fact that I beat over 90% of the gap shooters at the IBO would prove that instinctive aiming is always a better method than gap shooting! "

you could answer many of your own questions if you just read the whole thing


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## Greysides (Jun 10, 2009)

The thing about coaching that makes it such a problem to get an 'instinctive coach' is that people keep looking for qualified coaches.


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

Matt_Potter said:


> please explain if it is all done by the subconscious why you need the arrow right under your eye like every gap shooter I have ever seen


Because what is being taught is how to reduce an archer's POD to make the aiming process easier so the archer has to think less about where the arrow is in relationship to the target as if the arrow replaced the archer's finger when they point.

Test...point at an object and determine when you consciously realize your finger is on target. 

Ray :shade:

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2


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## grantmac (May 31, 2007)

sharpbroadhead said:


> Matt: a low anchor is not more efficient - a high anchor allows for me to have multiple anchor points in the most comfortable position I have found - I would add pics - but for some reason it is not allowing me


Its MUCH more efficient to draw with a low side of face anchor. The reference points for a low anchor are more solid using the back of the jaw in the web of the hand and index behind the lower canine. I shot with that draw for a long time and it worked really well except for excessive gap sizes.


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## Matt_Potter (Apr 13, 2010)

cossack said:


> Perhaps this is my problem. I've been giving this "focus on the spot and let the shot happen" an honest go for the past six months. I've been fairly consistent with tight groups out to 20 yards. Beyond that, it falls apart.....I can still hit the target but not with any degree of consistency. I shoot split finger because it's the most comfortable to me and I have done so since I was a kid. Even my compound was a finger bow and I shot split. I've tried three under and changing anchor points but it just doesn't feel right to me. I ask this out of wanting to know, not with any sarcasm intended. Are most instinctive archers shooting 3 under?


Mark 

Serious answer for a serious question - the closer you can get the arrow to your eye and get a good repeatable anchor the smaller your gaps will be and the easier it is to aim. Just switching from split to 3 under gets your arrow 1/2 inch closer. Take a look at pics of most of the guys shooting competitive 3d and they have anchors up around their cheek bone or eye socket giving them a point on of less than 30 yards or so. This also leaves the tip of the arrow on the targetas you gap for most typical 3d range shots.

Where in the great white north are you - I'm down in Z00-town


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## itbeso (Jul 6, 2005)

J. Wesbrock said:


> I wanted Itbeso to coach me, but I can't get him out of the tar pit. <- dinosaur reference


J., I'll make a video and coach from the grave.:teeth:


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

note how these guys just keep dragging the subject away from the fact that none of them have given the name and phone number of thier personal coach, let alone coaches in every State.

So the idea of recommending a coach to guys has been put to rest - the vast majority of us - do not have coaches, have never had coaches, will never have coaches, and have no access to a personal coach.

This point has been made - thread over as far as I am concerned - if the masters of the universe want to continue to discuss how they think I aim or Rick Welch aims - or why I anchor where I do - or Rick anchors where he does - have at it - becuase they don't care to know the real reasons why we do what we do and when we explain it - they just dismiss it as if we are lying. 

If Jimmy wants to keep posting pictures of his dead varmits - that is cool too

maybe next guys can come in and post pics of their kids, wives, and trophies - what does it matter if it has anything to do with the thread or not - just post away

the point of this thread has been made and in over 1400 views in less than a day - not one has posted the name and phone number of their coach - let alone one for each State.


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## cossack (May 11, 2011)

Thanks Matt - makes perfect sense. Perhaps I just need to step out of that comfort zone and start playing with 3 under and various anchor points.

Polson - Just up the hill from you.


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## itbeso (Jul 6, 2005)

cossack said:


> Perhaps this is my problem. I've been giving this "focus on the spot and let the shot happen" an honest go for the past six months. I've been fairly consistent with tight groups out to 20 yards. Beyond that, it falls apart.....I can still hit the target but not with any degree of consistency. I shoot split finger because it's the most comfortable to me and I have done so since I was a kid. Even my compound was a finger bow and I shot split. I've tried three under and changing anchor points but it just doesn't feel right to me. I ask this out of wanting to know, not with any sarcasm intended. Are most instinctive archers shooting 3 under?


Yes, all three of them.:mg:


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## Matt_Potter (Apr 13, 2010)

cossack said:


> Thanks Matt - makes perfect sense. Perhaps I just need to step out of that comfort zone and start playing with 3 under and various anchor points.
> 
> Polson - Just up the hill from you.


Mark

Look up Zane Smith - he lives right up there and can flat out shoot (US field team 2008)

Matt


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## Matt_Potter (Apr 13, 2010)

hey sharp posted a name and if Mark wants to get in touch with me I'll give him a e-mail and number as well - LOL

Matt


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## Jimmy Blackmon (Sep 9, 2010)

This conversation would not even exist if all the 3D targets were 30 yards and over. It's very difficult to shoot beyond 20 yards without some sort of system to fall back on. If you get past 30 it becomes exponentially more difficult. So if you are exclusively a short distance guy and just want to work on your hunting shot then just focusing on the spot works well for a lot of people. At the IBO Indoor Worlds there is almost always a target at about 8 yards so I practice just looking and shooting. I don't gap that target. I am aware of my arrow for left and right issues but I trust that my arm will be in the right spot and it is. For Trad Worlds and targets out to about 25 I am still not consciously measuring. I know about what that gap looks like in the sight picture so again, I'm aware of the arrow but no measuring or sweating the distance. I just focus on the spot and trust that the gap is right. It works. This is what Byron Ferguson teaches in Become the Arrow. This is what many others like Don Batton and Rod told me when I started gapping. It comes but it's best if you start with the precise system. 

At Trad Worlds we shoot closer distances than at any of the other IBO shoots ie. Triple Crown and regular IBO Worlds. Those shots are almost all 28 - 33 yards and up or down hills. It's a different game and I didn't know a single guy at that shoot that was not gapping. Ricky did win that one but when he won it the max distance was 25 yards for orange stakes. Not to take away from his win. Rick is a champion proven many times over, but I use the distance as an illustration. 

The squirrel is relevant because he was 24 paces away (stepped off after the shot). He hopped up on a limb facing away from me and I quickly drew. I focused on the squirrel and could see the arrow in the vision below but I didn't think about how far he was or anything. I just executed a good shot and hit him right in the head. A coach can teach this is he teaches you to gap first and then lets the gaps become so second nature that it just looks and feels right to your mind and body. But, my opinion is, that if the coach tells you to just focus on the target, turn the shot over to the subconscious and trust you will be frustrated for a long time. Just my opinion.


cossack said:


> Perhaps this is my problem. I've been giving this "focus on the spot and let the shot happen" an honest go for the past six months. I've been fairly consistent with tight groups out to 20 yards. Beyond that, it falls apart.....I can still hit the target but not with any degree of consistency. I shoot split finger because it's the most comfortable to me and I have done so since I was a kid. Even my compound was a finger bow and I shot split. I've tried three under and changing anchor points but it just doesn't feel right to me. I ask this out of wanting to know, not with any sarcasm intended. Are most instinctive archers shooting 3 under?


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

I shot with Rick at the IBO Worlds when he won in 2008 and the max distance was not 25 yards it was 30 - just like now - and almost every shot was around that max distance and they were up and down big slopes and in dark shadows - it was by far the most difficult 3d course I had ever shot. You better check your facts - because I shot with Rick in 2008 and the max distances for traditional was 30 yards - for longbows it was 25 yards.

Once gain - however - what does any of this have to do with coaches and the availability of them

I am done - I am not even going to look at this thread anymore

btw - Jimmy - had you ever even been at an IBO shoot in or before 2008? When did you first become a member of the IBO? I find it odd that you would not know the rules for traditional in 2008 - especially the shot distances.


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## Yewselfbow (Jan 28, 2006)

Jimmy Blackmon said:


> It's very difficult to shoot beyond 20 yards without some sort of system to fall back on. If you get past 30 it becomes exponentially more difficult.


Jimmy .. that's a question I've been asking for years. I shoot an English longbow and mostly shoot York rounds. 60 yards is my shortest distance.


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## Jimmy Blackmon (Sep 9, 2010)

It was right in there that they changed back to 30 so I'll take your word for it. Originally the TRAD guys shot long ones. I recall guys saying that the Trad distances were way way long so they took them down to 25 for a period. I thought it was still 25 until 2009 but I'll take your word for it. I wasn't there as you note.


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## Bigjono (Apr 21, 2009)

sharpbroadhead said:


> I shot with Rick at the IBO Worlds when he won in 2008 and the max distance was not 25 yards it was 30 - just like now - and almost every shot was around that max distance and they were up and down big slopes and in dark shadows - it was by far the most difficult 3d course I had ever shot. You better check your facts - because I shot with Rick in 2008 and the max distances for traditional was 30 yards - for longbows it was 25 yards.
> 
> Once gain - however - what does any of this have to do with coaches and the availability of them
> 
> ...


I think you'll find Jimmy said 30 yards and BEYOND, no UPTO 30 yards. I agree that the instinctive type shooting loses its perceived edge over 30 yards. Go and shoot NFAS 3D in the UK and try to match the top boys scores there with your style Ken.


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## cossack (May 11, 2011)

Makes perfect sense Jimmy. Most likely that's what has happened to me at the shorter yards. I started by gap but have progressed to the point where it's just second nature. Most likely, I'm still gap shooting, I'm just not aware of it as it's happening. 

The range I shoot likes to get a little challenging. We have 50+ 3D targets set at ranges from 10 to 55 yards across several acres at varying levels. Nobody really keeps score and the target locations change weekly. I'd say about half are set out at 30 yards plus.

Matt: I'm down in Cali for the few of weeks. I'll shoot you a PM for the contact when I get back to the lake first week in Feb. Thanks.


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## vabowdog (Dec 13, 2007)

Ken...I don't care if you think the only reason I beat Rick was because he had a bad day and I had a good day....when I brought it up I didn't mention his name you did....I've brought it up maybe 4 times since august 2nd 2012 you've brought up your wins or how you beat all the gap ers twice a week on average.

Whatever..

To my knowledge the only coach in my area lives in Annandale Md which is about 5 hours from me his name is Paul Vogel...I've consulted him over the phone several times with issues,every time inget around him I ask him questions about issues I've got going on...

I know a Coach that I could go to even once a year would greatly help me...I just don't make the time to go...


Dewayne


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## ozzypop (Sep 23, 2010)

I am 62 years old. I have work 40 years with youth that had problems with the law. I have worked in prisons with men who had killed several people. But right here I have found the most obnoxious person I have ever been involved with. I won't call a name just know he's here.


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## AReric (Mar 6, 2010)

I think I'll shoot my compound this year. With threads like these, I just come away learning nothing. :box:


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## Demmer (Dec 1, 2012)

Ken, now keep this in mind when I ask the following question. I am NOT poking fun at anyone's accomplishments. I am just looking for an understanding. When you say you and the others consistently shoot in the top ten at tournaments, how many are in that particular class? Top ten may be misleading. Say there is only 6,7 or 8. It might be a happenstance that instinctive shooters outnumbered gappers in that class.


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## Bigjono (Apr 21, 2009)

Matt_Potter said:


> Mark
> 
> Serious answer for a serious question - the closer you can get the arrow to your eye and get a good repeatable anchor the smaller your gaps will be and the easier it is to aim. Just switching from split to 3 under gets your arrow 1/2 inch closer. Take a look at pics of most of the guys shooting competitive 3d and they have anchors up around their cheek bone or eye socket giving them a point on of less than 30 yards or so. This also leaves the tip of the arrow on the targetas you gap for most typical 3d range shots.
> 
> Where in the great white north are you - I'm down in Z00-town


Matt, when I gap shoot I anchor with the thumb and forefinger C behind the lower jaw bone and index finger at corner of mouth. Would you say that's even too low. With my set up it gives me about a 23" gap at target (1/2" at bow) from 15 to 30yds. I would love to get a PO of 30yds but I like fast bows and light arrows


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## vabowdog (Dec 13, 2007)

ozzypop said:


> I am 62 years old. I have work 40 years with youth that had problems with the law. I have worked in prisons with men who had killed several people. But right here I have found the most obnoxious person I have ever been involved with. I won't call a name just know he's here.



Wow!!!


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## centershot (Sep 13, 2002)

centershot said:


> "you beating Rick only proves that Rick had a bad day or you had a really good day"
> 
> Just what is it that make you think this was a fluke?


Sharp, I think that is a valid question, do you think one shooter is superior? Do you feel that it is the aiming method? Or good shooters are good shooters and just a matter of good and bad days makes up the difference? Did Rick say that he had a bad day and Dwayne say he had a great day? The way it was posted originally gave me the impression that you felt that it was not the norm-a fluke.

Here is another question on the original post - do you believe that a coach has to be a 'trad' coach to help a new trad shooter? It seems to me that the basic fundamentals (stance, grip, etc.) can be taught by nearly any coach or pro shop owner. It is in the fine details where the shooter is looking for extra accuracy that a "trad coach" would be of extra benefit. Even at that point going to a specialized coach may be of the most benefit. If you want to be an instinctive shot then maybe Rick is your guy, All around maybe someone like Tim Strickland would be good. Reminds me of a saying "You can learn something from every coach". Might be good, might be bad but your learning.

I think that overall trad archers are getting better as a whole in the last few years and the upper class of archers may be at a record level. Numbers of great Trad shooters may be off, because many of the great shots shoot compounds where they were not available in the glory days. Shoots like Nationals will tell the tale. Very difficult to judge year to year or area by area progress on a 3d course.


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

sharpbroadhead said:


> Please tell me who I can get to coach me if I want to shoot traditional and instinctive - who can coach me on a regular basis - and answer this question for each State in the United States.
> 
> In Wisconsin - who?


Here's just what a little research will show. I'm not even going to list the other states. If someone wants to find a coach to teach them archery...Instinctive Aiming or NOT...they can find one pretty EASILY!

Kaitlin Cochrane - Appleton, WI 
Robert Walter - Appleton, WI 
Joe Priewe - Beaver Dam, WI 
Richard Diaz - Belleville, WI 
Lindsey Groves - Berlin, WI 
Jan Rousey - Black River Falls, WI 
Alex Taubenheim - Cato, WI 
Michael Offeron - Chilton, WI 
Michael Degenhardt - Dodgeville, WI 
Hans Miller - Eau Claire, WI 
Donald Blink - Eau Clare, WI 
Matthew Harried - Edgerton, WI Matthew 
Les Hedrington - Franksville, WI 
Angela Baron - Genoa, WI 
Jorge Buening - Genoa, WI 
Orey Eckes - Genoa, WI 
Darla Wenger - Genoa, WI 
Claire Rapant - Germantown, WI 
Abigail Werner - Germantown, WI 
Benjamin Siegman - Gerrmantown, WI 
Christopher Meissner - Hartland, WI 
Katie Bloome - Hudson, WI Katie 
Angela Eilkstedt - Jackson, WI 
William Borchardt - Johnson Creek, WI 
John Reichert - Johnson Creek, WI 
Wynelle Baum - Kewaskum, WI 
Randy Hines - La Crosse, WI 
Rob McCoy - Madison, WI 
Ti8mothy Thorn - Madison, WI 
Jessica Brown - Maple, WI 
Kevin Carolfi - Marshfield, WI 
Fred Riedel - Marshfield, WI 
Todd Tyrolt - Marshfield, WI 
Tia Opelt - Merrillan, WI 
Brian Michaels - Middleton, WI 
Zachary Barthel - Milwaukee, WI 
Eddie Crise - Milwaukee, WI 
Maryrose Langoehr -Milwaukee, WI 
Tara Porter - Milwaukee, WI 
Erik Bakken Mineral Point, WI 
Laura Beilman -Dulin Minong, WI 
Scott Johnson - Monona, WI 
Anthony Fontana - Mount Horeb, WI 
Tara Finch - Oconomowol, WI 
Michael Brown - Onalaske, WI 
Joshua Moore - Park Falls, WI 
Alex Watras - Presque Isle, WI 
Jenna Bent - Racine, WI 
Beka Bickel - Racine, WI 
Paul Coakley - Reedsburg, WI 
Anthony Deheck - Sheboygan Falls, WI 
Michael Zindars - St. Cloud, WI 
Erica Rasmussen - Stoddard, WI 
Deanna Rotar - Stratford, WI 
Jeanine Hembel - Sturgeon Bay, WI 
Terrie Gillett - Sturtevant, WI 
Nikki Gudenschwager - Trego, WI 
Kendall Bobula - Union Grove, WI 
Paul Siegman - Vicksburg, WI 
Elizabeth White - Waukesha, WI 
Karen White - Waukesha, WI 
Noah Rubin - Webster, WI 
Kathleen McCarthy - West Bend, WI 
Lisa Sanborn - West Bend, WI 
Brad Fincham - Westfield, WI 
Nathan Vogel - Westfield, WI 
Chelsey Northey - Whitewater, WI 



sharpbroadhead said:


> So the idea of recommending a coach to guys has been put to rest - the vast majority of us - have no access to a personal coach.


Wake up and smell the coffee. Your claims have been put to rest.

The point of this thread has been proven to be false!

If an archer wants to use a coach to learn how to shoot a bow Instinctively or not....all they need to do is go to this website and look.

http://www.teamusa.org/USA-Archery/Programs/Coaching/Coach-Locator.aspx

All a coach basically needs to say to teach an archer to learn how to aim Instinctively is to just focus on the target and put complete faith in their hand and eye coordination to put the arrow where they want to. It's just a matter of trial and error...until the archer's hand and eye coordination has developed the ability to hit the target.

The primary job of a coach is to adjust and improve and archer's ability to be CONSISTENT with their form.

Ray :shade:


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## grantmac (May 31, 2007)

Bigjono said:


> Matt, when I gap shoot I anchor with the thumb and forefinger C behind the lower jaw bone and index finger at corner of mouth. Would you say that's even too low. With my set up it gives me about a 23" gap at target (1/2" at bow) from 15 to 30yds. I would love to get a PO of 30yds but I like fast bows and light arrows


Jon,

That really comes down to face shape. With that set-up I'd be out there with a 60yd POD and gap measured in feet!

I've decided to shoot the same high-anchor for everything. So when I shoot FITA field I use arrow length/speed to get a 50m POD and then stringwalk. NFAA/WA3D instinctive class 3D I'm using 32" arrows of 415gr to get a ~30yd POD (Hex5w 43#OTF), not great past 35yds but so good inside it that its worth the trade-off.

Of course in accordance with that fine clip of Rick Welch's I'm doing all of my fixed anchor shooting instinctively. My instincts just get much better with a POD of around 30yds 
I suspect this is true of everyone using his method, and it works really well.

-Grant


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## vabowdog (Dec 13, 2007)

Ken, there's 67 in the state of Wisconsin...and 1 in your hometown...I looked and there probable this may too in my state...now neither of us have the excuse of no coaches nearby....


Dewayne


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## Matt_Potter (Apr 13, 2010)

Jon - my experience is the same as Grant unless I really jockeyed with my nock hight my point on was 65-70 which works ok for 3d out here but would be hard if you average shot was shorter. 

Matt


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

Bigjono said:


> Matt, when I gap shoot I anchor with the thumb and forefinger C behind the lower jaw bone and index finger at corner of mouth. Would you say that's even too low. With my set up it gives me about a 23" gap at target (1/2" at bow) from 15 to 30yds. I would love to get a PO of 30yds but I like fast bows and light arrows


I agree with Matt. You should base your technique on your specific goals.

It is far easier to set gaps that are smaller when compared to larger...so it is wise to try and get your POD closer to the typical distances you will be shooting from.

I personally have a POD of 100yrds. My basic anchor is with my index finger on a tooth at the corner of my mouth holding Split Finger.

I can shoot close distance very well...because I have learned to also use my sight window as an aiming reference.

My personal goals were to be able to hit just about any target at any distance my bow will reach out to.

Alot of archers just want to be able to hunt or attend a local 3D shoot and not embaress themselves so having a POD of 100yrds. is kind of nutty when a POD of 20 to 30yrds. may be more ideal :wink:

Ray :shade:


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## SteveB (Dec 18, 2003)

I've been coached by Mike Fedora Sr and Rod Jenkins.
Also a couple of local CNY guys with a solid understanding of good form and how to communicate it.
Out of several hours of instruction and guidance that all proved helpful, I doubt if aiming discussions took up
more than 15 minutes total.


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## FORESTGUMP (May 14, 2008)

ozzypop said:


> I am 62 years old. I have work 40 years with youth that had problems with the law. I have worked in prisons with men who had killed several people. But right here I have found the most obnoxious person I have ever been involved with. I won't call a name just know he's here.



Looking in the mirror are we?


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## FORESTGUMP (May 14, 2008)

AReric said:


> I think I'll shoot my compound this year. With threads like these, I just come away learning nothing. :box:



Yep,same here. I still haven't learned of any 'coaches' who can teach a hunter how to shoot instinctive. Well, not any listed anyway. I have learned more about some of the posters here and their reading comprehension skills.


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

FORESTGUMP said:


> Yep,same here. I still haven't learned of any 'coaches' who can teach a hunter how to shoot instinctive.



How would you teach it?

Ray :shade:


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## FORESTGUMP (May 14, 2008)

BLACK WOLF said:


> How would you teach it?
> 
> Ray :shade:



Same way I taught you. But I would reccomend trying to find a more receptive student,it took about two years with you.:teeth:

So now I'm going to address your list above. I would think such a list could be found in lots of places. People who have attended some little off the wall class so they can call themselves a coach. Qualified for anything? Maybe not. There was a guy in my area who wanted to teach the kids at his church about archery so the church sent him to a coaches class and he got a certificate of some kind. Not much more to tell about that.
Now in your area,I do believe I would have to mention a guy named Ray. He is probably the most qualified to teach someone how to shoot for hunting purposes,the original intent of this thread. May have credentials or may not,doesn't matter.
In Wi. I would have to go with Ken. He actually knows how to do it. Those others may not,don't know.
Arkansas,I'd go with Welch-West Virginia, there are a couple of guys taught by Welch. Tn., I think one would still be safe with Blackmon because he knows how even if he likes to do some measuring, he still reverts to instinctive in the blink of an eye. Still a good bet for a newbie I think. Around my neck of the woods there are several people who shoot pretty well but I just might be the better teacher in the bunch,non having any credentials.
My point is that just because someone has the title of 'coach', that doesn't mean they can teach a person anything about shooting arrows at critters. However a person who does have the skill could easily convey the message to someone else with just a little bit of communication ability. As we have seen there are some among us who couldn't be taught to fall down when pushed cause they don't have a damn lick of common sense.
So,there ya go BW. Hang up a shingle and become an instinctive coach. If ya want you can add instinctive hunting to the sign too, COACH.


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## FORESTGUMP (May 14, 2008)

vabowdog said:


> Ken, there's 67 in the state of Wisconsin...and 1 in your hometown...I looked and there probable this may too in my state...now neither of us have the excuse of no coaches nearby....
> 
> 
> Dewayne


Hey man,you are in luck. If you want to learn instinctive shooting the right way, it's really not far at all from your house to West Virginia where some ole boys can teach ya. I bet you even know who they are. I didn't name them here cause you know them ole boys can be right touchy about such things over there.


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

FORESTGUMP said:


> Same way I taught you. But I would reccomend trying to find a more receptive student,it took about two years with you.:teeth:



Now seriously. For the same amount of time you spent writing that fictional nonsense...you could spend writing something constructive to show what exactly is involved with teaching an archer to aim Instinctively that they need a special coach who aims Instinctively to teach it to them

Ray :shade:


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## grantmac (May 31, 2007)

BLACK WOLF said:


> what exactly is involved with teaching an archer to aim Instinctively that they need a special coach who aims Instinctively to teach it to them
> 
> Ray :shade:


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## FORESTGUMP (May 14, 2008)

Well,there ya go. Ray and grant summed it up right nicely. Need a coach who knows how to shoot instinctively or you might learn bad habits that could be counterproductive.

JUST DO IT.


Question BW. Don't you feel that you could teach a person to shoot for the purpose of hunting elk? I mean skipping the aiming at the kneecap thing. I noticed that you did not reply to my coaching endorsment so I just wondered if you don't feel qualified.


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

FORESTGUMP said:


> JUST DO IT.


LOL...that's really all a coach needs to say to teach their students how to aim Instinctively???

Just more proof a person does NOT need a coach that aims Instinctively to teach how to aim Instinctively :wink:

Ray :shade:


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## FORESTGUMP (May 14, 2008)

grantmac said:


>




Looks to like most of these 'do right coaches' would have a guy spending so much time thinking about his feet,shoulders,back,head etc that he would not have time to learn to shoot an arrow. Oh, and I forgot the part about holding your mouth right or wigglin your ears the right way.
If ya gonna shoot it,just go ahead and do it. Keep goofin around and someone else will kill you deer before you get 'put together'. We are talking about hunting environment here now,not the olympics.


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## Warbow (Apr 18, 2006)

FORESTGUMP said:


> Looks to like most of these 'do right coaches' would have a guy spending so much time thinking about his feet,shoulders,back,head etc that he would not have time to learn to shoot an arrow. Oh, and I forgot the part about holding your mouth right or wigglin your ears the right way.
> If ya gonna shoot it,just go ahead and do it. Keep goofin around and someone else will kill you deer before you get 'put together'. We are talking about hunting environment here now,not the olympics.


The idea is that if you practice it enough that it will become second nature. So your concerns about people having to think too much are overblown, if they practice that is.


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

FORESTGUMP said:


> Looks to like most of these 'do right coaches' would have a guy spending so much time thinking about his feet,shoulders,back,head etc that he would not have time to learn to shoot an arrow.


Basing that assumption on what?

A great coach will ALWAYS be in tune with their students goals, abilities and personality. They will base their coaching techniques off of that.



FORESTGUMP said:


> We are talking about hunting environment here now,not the olympics.


Yep....even though there are some differences there are also similarities.

A great coach will understand that.

Ray :shade:


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## BarneySlayer (Feb 28, 2009)

vabowdog said:


> Wow!!!


Thank you, ozzypop, for some much-needed, uncontrollable laughter


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## BarneySlayer (Feb 28, 2009)

Edited...

Starting new thread.


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## Bowsage (Apr 29, 2008)

Oh well , I admit I missed what I read,what a schmuck.

Anyway, Thanks Steve B for post # 191.


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## Sneezy (Dec 4, 2012)

anyone in colorado southern particularly


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

It's not really Southern Colorado but I live between Glenwood Springs and Aspen

Ray :shade:


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## BarneySlayer (Feb 28, 2009)

I think I need an Elk-Killing Guide more than a Coach. Coaching surely wouldn't hurt though


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## FORESTGUMP (May 14, 2008)

BarneySlayer said:


> I think I need an Elk-Killing Guide more than a Coach. Coaching surely wouldn't hurt though


craycookakablackwolf,he da man.


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## Boberau (Dec 15, 2009)

I'm with Sharp 100% on this. I don't know of any trad coach within a couple hours driving distance of myself who I could go to for lessons to shoot trad bows with instinctive aiming for hunting. And, if I found a guy that was a good archer, would he/she be a good coach? Who knows.

I find this thread one of the most interesting in a while. 

I started at age 14 in 1964, the only one in my family. My father looked everywhere to find someone to help me. Finally he came up with an older fellow, pretty nice, who bowhunted. He gave me some encouragement and advise, but no real coaching. 

Fast forward to the age of the internet. The internet has been a wonder. I can go on You-Tube and see all assorted videos from very good, to very poor. I took away a lot from both Sharp's videos/writings and Jimmy's videos/writings - more than from Asbell's book. 

It seems to me that instinctive trad bowhunting is so disbursed that the best way for the average guy to learn is through videos, either purchased or off the internet. Alternately, spend some bucks, and take a trip to see your favorite - weather Welsh, Asbell, or Jenkens, or whoever. The average guy isn't going to put out that kind of money as would someone who wants to be competitive at the national level. 

I don't see it changing either. ... I suspect there are about the same number of instinctive trad bowhunters today as there were in 1964 - not much different, I'm sure.

So, how many pages is this tread now? And, nobody - not one person - has offered anything to demonstrate that Sharp's basic proposition is false: qualified coaches to teach instinctive trad bowhunting are not a reasonable proposition for the average guy.

Anyway, great thread.


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## vabowdog (Dec 13, 2007)

I totally agree..there are very few "coaches" that teach instinctive....because it is more of a learned than a taught....Welch teaches what he calls instinctive and maybe it is who knows...I know he tucks the arrow up under his eye and swears he don't see it...I have a hard time believing that....I tuck the arrow up under my eye just like most of the Method shooters do so we can use it for a gauge as to where we are on the target....

If I was looking for a coach to teach me "instinctive" then I would first find a coach to teach me proper form....then I would learn the instinctive part myself thru trial and error.....but thats just me...I'm sure there plenty that will disagree.


Dewayne


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## Sanford (Jan 26, 2009)

vabowdog said:


> If I was looking for a coach to teach me "instinctive" then I would first find a coach to teach me proper form....then I would learn the instinctive part myself thru trial and error.....but thats just me...I'm sure there plenty that will disagree.
> 
> 
> Dewayne


I certainly would not disagree. First, become an archer - learn to shoot a bow. Aiming? That's how you point it, not shoot it.


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## vabowdog (Dec 13, 2007)

Sanford said:


> I certainly would not disagree. First, become an archer - learn to shoot a bow. Aiming? That's how you point it, not shoot it.



10000% agree...learn to shoot the bow first...then learn to aim the bow....


Dewayne


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

This is an arrow tucked under ones eye:


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

This is not:


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

oh -and for the guys like grant - who insist that a high anchor is not the best anchor for alignment - look at the pic of me standing sideways - look at my string arm and the arrow - look at Asbell's string arm and his arrow - looks perfectly aligned to me


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

Personally - while Ryan Ramsey is an awesome shot - better than me - I think holding the arrow that close to ones eye looks dangerous


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## grantmac (May 31, 2007)

sharpbroadhead said:


> oh -and for the guys like grant - who insist that a high anchor is not the best anchor for alignment - look at the pic of me standing sideways - look at my string arm and the arrow - look at Asbell's string arm and his arrow - looks perfectly aligned to me


You love looking at the form of Olympic archers. Take a look at how their forearm aligns with their shoulder from the side, its nearly inline with the shoulder. Your forearm is several inches above the shoulder, that is not biomechanically efficient. If you lowered your anchor to the bottom of your chin then you would have all the forces inline, but that would mess with your aiming solutions too much. Difficult to shoot RW instinctive with a 60yd POD in my experience.

-Grant


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## vabowdog (Dec 13, 2007)

Ken I didn't say that your arrow was tucked up under your eye I said RWs arrow was tucked up under his eye....



Yes your form looks much better than G.F.A.s


Dewayne


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## Bigjono (Apr 21, 2009)

sharpbroadhead said:


> Personally - while Ryan Ramsey is an awesome shot - better than me - I think holding the arrow that close to ones eye looks dangerous


Wouldn't want to be there when a nock explodes.


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## Jimmy Blackmon (Sep 9, 2010)

How many nocks have you guys seen explode? Barebow shooters have been shooting with the arrow high due to stringwalking for years. I've never heard of an eye being put out. Also, I have been shooting 40 years and have never seen a nock explode.


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## Jimmy Blackmon (Sep 9, 2010)

This is an arrow tucked under your eye.


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## J. Wesbrock (Dec 17, 2003)

Jimmy Blackmon said:


> How many nocks have you guys seen explode? Barebow shooters have been shooting with the arrow high due to stringwalking for years. I've never heard of an eye being put out. Also, I have been shooting 40 years and have never seen a nock explode.


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## Matt_Potter (Apr 13, 2010)

J. Wesbrock said:


>


Jason - that is a beautiful thing


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

J.

LOL...AWESOME! Great video :thumbs_up :wink:

Ray :shade:


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

Jimmy Blackmon said:


> How many nocks have you guys seen explode? Barebow shooters have been shooting with the arrow high due to stringwalking for years. I've never heard of an eye being put out. Also, I have been shooting 40 years and have never seen a nock explode.


Wow - how long have you been shooting seriously - how long at a serious level - I know you are a relative newbie to the IBO - but how long have you been shooting bows at a serious level 40 years was certianly not serious the entire time? 

I have been shooting at a pretty serious level since about 2000 - really trying to improve my shooting from beyond the "good enough" attitude - and in that time I have seen several nocks break - MY NOCKS - I have had one bow completely destroyed when a nock broke (Martin Dream Catcher - the string sliced through the upper limb like a saw) - I have had two nocks break while shooting my Black Widows and they survived with no damage and I have had one break with my Tradtech and no damage. I have seen other guys nocks break at my leagues and at shoots over the years - it is not uncommon at all - they are plastic.

Granted I shoot more than the average guy - but I have had several nocks break over the years - enough that I would never hold an arrow as close to my eye as Ryan does or you guys do when you stringwalk - but hey - it is your eye sight - that is totally up to you.


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## Bigjono (Apr 21, 2009)

Jimmy Blackmon said:


> How many nocks have you guys seen explode? Barebow shooters have been shooting with the arrow high due to stringwalking for years. I've never heard of an eye being put out. Also, I have been shooting 40 years and have never seen a nock explode.


Jimmy, the guy next to me on the line at an indoor shoot had a knock go on release a while back and I had one go a couple of weeks ago while shooting one of the few arrows I have been able to shoot for ages  in fairness though you are right, I have never known anyone need a medevac after a serious nock encounter.
I know my 10yd crawl puts the arrow right in front of my eye so I always check the nock before I put that arrow on the string because half the time if a nock blows it was cracked already from a previous impact.


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## vabowdog (Dec 13, 2007)

I've been shooting 3-D since 1996 on and off....I've been shooting indoor going on my 4 th year....been shooting serious 3-D and I can HONESTLY say I've never seen a single nock explode.....I ONLY shoot G nocks and I have hammered them with other arrows and never had one of them fail.....


RW better hope his nocks don't fail or he will be in the same boat as me...one eye....


Dewayne


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

I think most of the nocks that I had break were Bohning Signature


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## Matt_Potter (Apr 13, 2010)

I've blown a few Beiter pin nocks this year - stopped shooting single spot. 

Matt


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## jacibo (Aug 8, 2011)

Some of you missed the humor in Jimmy’s post. Exploding nock isn’t the same as a broken nock.


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## c-lo (Jan 8, 2012)

I break them all the time, but I've never seen one explode. 

I'm always listnening for that click when I'm nocking them on the string in case of a broken one I didn't notice.


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## Bigjono (Apr 21, 2009)

jacibo said:


> Some of you missed the humor in Jimmy’s post. Exploding nock isn’t the same as a broken nock.


Yes but I only use C4 nocks and they're risky


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## ozzypop (Sep 23, 2010)

I see why Rick says he does not see the arrow, the feather is in his eye.


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

nocks do not explode - they break.

And they can and do break while on the string upon release - and if that happens and your eyeball is right there on it - there is a good chance that a piece of plastic will enter your eyeball at a very high rate of speed. I would bet that the most common cause of a dry fire is a broken nock. Think about it - if you are shooting a 50lb bow - there is 50lbs of force applied to that little piece of plastic each time you release that string - over time - nocks can weaken - they are plastic - and when they do - they are going to be most likely to break upon relese of the string.

C-lo is right - you should never shoot if it feels like the nock did not go on the string right - and after the first broken nock destroyed my Dreamcatcher - I was VERY conscious about that - but I still had three other occassions of broken nocks upon release over the years..

The way I look at it is - would I want a tiny piece of plastic millimeters from my eyeball that is constantly havin 50lbs of force applied to it from one end (while milimeters from my eye) and is constantly being vibrated by the force of the impact from the other? 

I have not been a dice roller since becoming a funeal director - maybe I am paranoid, but after 25 years of seeing the weird stuff that happens to people and the results when taking a chance didn't work out for someone - I usually err on the side of caution with most things - and no - I am not saying that a nock breaking could kill someone - but it certainly could do serious harm to ones eye.


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

that pic of Rick makes it appear that the arrow is much closer to his eye than it is - and it is because, as Ozzy pointed out, the fletching is high profile. His anchor is slightly higher than mine, but not as much as appears in the photo that Jimmy posted - if you look carefully at the actual arrow shaft -not the fletch you can see this - here is a pic without the high fletching that shows more clearly where the arrow is in relation to his eye - and it is not right by his eyeball like Ryan Ramsey anchors:


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## ozzypop (Sep 23, 2010)

Sharp it appears that Rick has the cock feather to his nose what is his hand anchor on? just interested


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

I don't recall what he all does - it is in his videos - I tried it the way he does and it was not comfortable to me - that is why my anchor is a little lower than his - even though I also touch the tip of the feather to my nose


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