# The Biggest Field Shoot of the Year......



## Dave T (Mar 24, 2004)

Perhaps the lack of "buzz" is a reflection of the lack of promotion by the NFAA. With the single exception of putting on the nationals each year they appear more interested in becoming the NIAA (National Indoor Archery Association).

Dave


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## WV Has Been (Aug 9, 2002)

Shane Wills has been working harder than ever and putting up some good numbers. Will he be able to out do his traveling partner Jesse B and capture his first pro class silver bowl?

Roger Willet put up a good number earlier this month on the slopes of the HillBilly Shoot tying the range record on his first attempt. Could he steal the bowl?

Will Maryland's Corrine McKenzie be able to match capturing an outdoor title on her second trip the same way she captured the title on her second trip to the indoor?


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## WV Has Been (Aug 9, 2002)

Dave T said:


> Perhaps the lack of "buzz" is a reflection of the lack of promotion by the NFAA. With the single exception of putting on the nationals each year they appear more interested in becoming the NIAA (National Indoor Archery Association).
> 
> Dave


Lets talk about that buzz.

How are the indoor shoots promoted harder than the Outdoor Nationals???


What exactly needs to be done to promote the Outdoor Nationals???


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## field14 (May 21, 2002)

WV Has Been said:


> Lets talk about that buzz.
> 
> How are the indoor shoots promoted harder than the Outdoor Nationals???
> 
> ...


Why would the NFAA want to spend tons of ad money for OUTDOOR Nationals...that has been going downhill for years....

When....even without much advertising, the VEGAS shoot is INTERNATIONAL and the largest indoor shoot in the world today...and GROWING.

When....the NFAA Indoor Nationals has ALWAYS been a mainstay, drawing what, 1,100 or more shooters every year and growing?

When...INDOOR archery is so much EASIER to get a captive audience to attend...EASIER to score well on, EASIER in that you have your fat shafts, bow, site, and release...and that is it.

The round is POSITIVELY DONE in a given amount of time...NOBODY is piddling around on the line with a ton of TECHNO-TOYS calibrating this, reading that, calculating this, and re-calculating that....just set the equipment ONCE and shoot...making only MINOR adjustments as you go.

INDOORS is a DONE DEAL, it is SIMPLE, and it sure doesn't involve so much TECNO-TOY PIDDLING, bugs, heat, humidity, rain, wind, and uneven footing as the OUTDOORS does..

AND>..far less peeing and moaning about "catching up" and "keeping up" with technology...and the MUST HAVES that people are shoving down people's throats for OUTDOOR shooting...when in reality...OUTDOOR shooting does NOT require all that extra techno-crap...just PRACTICE.

I've shot with so many people over the years that could shoot 50+X - 300's indoors....and couldn't break 500 on a field course, that it is unreal. They figure a 20 yard setup and form is good for everything...and once they get past 30 yards OUTDOORS...their 20 yard setups and 20 yard form breaks down...and they don't know how, nor do they WANT to deal with it....so they go shoot 3-D, or better yet, go fishing during the outdoor season...

Of course, PRACTICING is the bane of most people...they don't want to PRACTICE anything...but rather just use osmosis to get proficient.

Wonder if anyone ever got West Nile virus or LYME disease from shooting INDOORS? I know that this very thing has affected my attitude concering outdoor shooting.....That and the HUGE SLOWDOWN in time for shooting a full 28 field or hunter round, that just wasn't that way only a few short years ago!

I WAS a more than dedicated FIELD SHOOTER....but things are sure changing my opinion as the "developments" occur, and the outdoor "shooting conditions" with relation to what is going on in the woods itself are concerned, along with what is mentioned above.

field14:wink::tongue:


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## WV Has Been (Aug 9, 2002)

field14 said:


> Why would the NFAA want to spend tons of ad money for OUTDOOR Nationals...that has been going downhill for years....
> 
> When....even without much advertising, the VEGAS shoot is INTERNATIONAL and the largest indoor shoot in the world today...and GROWING.


You stoled my response that I had prepared to answer any response to my question. 

If you have a horse that can win a race with little training should you spend more time training a slow decrepit horse that has little chance of winning.

I had an NFAA Councilmen tell me not long ago: "_Are we sure we want more people at the Outdoor Nationals_". I gave it some thought and completely understood the comment. Currently the NFAA is not getting over ran with bids for the Nationals with 500 people expected and 5 ranges. Consider at best you can squeeze 120 shooters on a 28 target range with a shotgun start. If the NFAA promoted and 1200 shooters show who would be willing to bid a National Outdoor requiring 10 full 28 target ranges?

With that said I gave it some thought and came up with a solution. If the NFAA introduced two starting times at the Outdoor Nationals all will be cured. The first starting time is 8:00 AM. When assigning targets every forth target is left empty. That puts 84 shooters on a range at one time. With 8 empty targets the time to complete a round should be cut dramatical. The reduced time will allow for the second starting time to get on the ranges at 1:30 PM. With 3 ranges you could shoot 504 people a day. With four ranges you could handle 672 shooters and five ranges would account for 840 shooters. 

With all that said. The NFAA needs to adjust the schedule to what the masses want. I personally do not think Monday through Friday is the answer. Nor am I in favor of the diluted best of 2 twice scenario either. Make it a Friday, Saturday, Sunday and lick your lips on how fast you would see the 840 number on the East coast. I'll even come out of club management retirement to put the bid in for the Cumberland MD area. Five ranges 840 shooter split the entry fee 50%-50% equals about $29,000.00 for the club.


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## rock monkey (Dec 28, 2002)

why does the nationals lose participation? a few reasons.

more and more people think they should be paid for showing up.

more people are interested in standing around staring at a chunk o foam for 8 hours than sling a ton more arrows in less time.

more and more people think, or more like conditioned to think their bow cant reach 80yds, who's gonna shoot that far, it doesnt simulate a hunting situation, too many arrows.....the excuses are deep and many. some dont wanna know how good they arent. field shoots will show where ya stand in the group REAL quick. some have the fortitude to stick with it and become very good at it, others would rather hide behind excuses for their lack of. field shooting doesnt have that instant gratification of one shot. too much left to wonder if it was luck or skill. 4 arrows erase the doubt.

viable excuses....the economy, price of gas. i know for me, i havent done much....stand your ground to the boss and do the math.

the biggest reason the nfaa loses out is that they dont give away money like the rubber deer game. my feeling about that deal is, if you want to make a hobby profitable, donate to a sperm bank.

techno toys are not that big of a deal if you know how to use em efficiently. takes ya less time to use them at a field course than it does to stand ata stake and stare at a rubber animal. i use mine as a backup to the tried and true method.


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## field14 (May 21, 2002)

WV Has Been said:


> You stoled my response that I had prepared to answer any response to my question.
> 
> If you have a horse that can win a race with little training should you spend more time training a slow decrepit horse that has little chance of winning.
> 
> ...


I agree with what you say above and will add one comment to it

Set the TIME LIMIT for 28 targets for 5 hours....and ENFORCE THAT TIME LIMIT...if the scorecards are not turned in within say, 5 1/2 hours from the sound of the shotgun...said scores are DISQUALIFIED.

The NFAA has got to get cajunas and start ENFORCING the rules...and not depend upon "peer enforcement".....and when it comes to FIELD/HUNTER...5 hours is PLENTY OF TIME. The number of arrows hasn't changed, the distances haven't changed....but yet the amount of time taken is going up every year....

I don't want to hear, "the shooters are aging, so they slow down"....people in their 60's were shooting every year from 1939 thru now...just like people in their 20's, 30's 40's and 50's were shooting then and now...so the PEOPLE haven't changed....so neither should the amount of TIME they take to shoot the rounds!

The change is in the garbage being used out on the courses, and the casual attitudes that have crept into the ranks about "taking one's time"....even golfers get nailed for "slow play"....and by golly....a 5-hour or maybe 5 1/2 hour TIME LIMIT to complete your 28-targets for the day is NEEDED and should be ANNOUNCED and ENFORCED. 6, 7 or more hours for 28 targets is simply ABUSE and disregard....and choosing to get away with something....


Yep, just like the use of umbies to block the wind for the shooter at the stake, I will always feel that a TIME LIMIT for completing 28-field/hunter targets needs to be set, announced at the tournament each morning, and then ENFORCED. If weather causes a problem, then that can be dealt with like it was in the past! I know in 1989, and again around 1992....the TIME LIMIT was ANNOUNCED at the morning meeting...and was 5 hours....In 1989 it was on Sugar Hill, and we had 5 hours from the sound of the horn to get our score cards TURNED IN....not 5 hours on the range proper....and people easily made that time limit, too.

Again, what has changed.....is the people's attitudes about "taking their time" not matter how long it takes...and then crying that they are out on the ranges in the heat of the day...>DAH...no wonder....Pop a TIME LIMIT of 5 to 5 1/2 hours...and guess what....you are OFF the range BEFORE the heat index is at its peak at 2:30PM or so each day! NOON is NOT normally the hootest part of the day....it is really around 2-3PM!!!
field14


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## centerx (Jun 13, 2002)

Well I was all set to go to the outdoor nationals as it is only a few hours from my home. As if Thursday however I needed to cancel due to work obligations

Even a 3 day during the week takes at least 4 work days to attend. Over the weekend I can cut that in 1/2 . I know a few extra days don't seem like much but as we are trying to do more and more with less and less even a 2 hour meeting / appointment can be enough to scrap a weeks worth of plans .... 2 less days are 2 less opportunities for it to get all buggered up 

I would vey much be in favor of a Fri-Sun event with 2 shotgun start times daily. The first one should be a sunrise start time as well to avoid the heat of the day.

Just a thought and I know 3 others that have the same problem from around here and another 2 that don't . It's no coincedence that the 2 that don't are retired and will be in attendance the full week :wink:


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## Rattleman (Jul 6, 2004)

I personally think that if the NFAA made the round shorter maybe 3 arrows/end instead of 4 and shot 20 targets instead if 28 then they could shoot 2 groups in the course of a day thus requiring fewer ranges and hopefully more people would respond. Not sure if this would help but lets face it not to many ranges out there to accomadate 10 courses. What about making this event a qualified event. You must make the top 10 in either the sectionals or the states to qualify.???????? Also what about forcing the top shooters or at least shooters that average a certian average to move to the Pro status. Then pay these guys. Make everyone below the Pro level minor leaguer or semi pro.


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## field14 (May 21, 2002)

rock monkey said:


> why does the nationals lose participation? a few reasons.
> 
> more and more people think they should be paid for showing up.
> 
> ...


Yep, and SO DO the "real" top echelon field shooters...use the techno-toys as a BACKUP to their "gut instincts" or as a confirmation on one that has them Puzzled. I have spoken directly with SEVERAL top echeolon field shooters (past national champions), and ALL of them said that they only use those "things" to verify their gut feelings when they are "stumped", and 99% of the time...their gut feelings were right anyways.

The problem lies in the wannabees that think purchasing all the extra junk will BUY THEM A BETTER SCORE....when in reality, the toys only add to their confusion...cuz they don't have the know how about form issues, and how the "odd-ball" stances and targets will affect their FORM and SHOT SEQUENCE...so they figure the computers will GIVE IT TO THEM....

I know that IF, heaven forbid!, IF I were to bother with a palm pilot, or clinometer...I would only use the blamed things on targets that I DOUBTED my gut instints, and then only for that. I certainly wouldn't put all my faith in a battery operated unit to carry my site settings for me, that is for certain!


Doesn't do a heck of a lot of good to calculate all that stuff...and then not be able to pickup on an anamoly about the left/right issue...or not know how to deal with or how the odd footing affects your shot! You are going to shoot that "4" or worse anyways! It isn't ALL about just nailing the "cut"...there is way more to it than that....but so many "newbies" concern themselves with only practicing "cuts" and shooting under ideal conditions..and then when they get to a tough course...they are clueless as to how to deal with it....they slow down, change their rhythm, and whine and moan about the conditions....instead of just gutting it out and learning to be PROACTIVE and practice for the inevitable so they KNOW HOW to deal with less than ideal situations.

Typical responses for newbies...SHORTEN THE ROUNDS....yep....very typical. Know what? That wouldn't bring anyone in droves to shoot the field rounds either....We could shorten it up to two arrows per target and it wouldn't change a thing....people would NOT flock to shoot field...because they are intimidated by it....there isn't a built-in excuse of "mis-judging the yardage"....the proof that YOU are at fault lies with your arrows in the target....no excuses...you fouled up...and people just want to blame everything but themselves. Shortening the rounds in targets or number of shots per target is an "excuse"...and not a remedy.

What is "semi-pro"....is that like being semi-pregnant? Semi-pro, IMHO is the most ludicrous connotation to ever come into archery....might be a "semi-success" in ASA and/or IBO....but.....either get off the porch and run with the big dogs, or don't do it at all and stay in the amateur side of the game....no need for a "half-way" house.

Imagine what would happen to the "Championship" purse at vegas if they put in a "semi-Championship" division? How silly can one become? the money for this has to come from somewhere? And where does it come from? Easy...they REDUCE the payout for the FULL PRO....to give it to the "halfway house."


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## centerx (Jun 13, 2002)

Rattleman said:


> I personally think that if the NFAA made the round shorter maybe 3 arrows/end instead of 4 and shot 20 targets instead if 28 then they could shoot 2 groups in the course of a day thus requiring fewer ranges and hopefully more people would respond. Not sure if this would help but lets face it not to many ranges out there to accomadate 10 courses. What about making this event a qualified event. You must make the top 10 in either the sectionals or the states to qualify.???????? Also what about forcing the top shooters or at least shooters that average a certian average to move to the Pro status. Then pay these guys. Make everyone below the Pro level minor leaguer or semi pro.



If the NFAA put 1/2 the money and effort into Outdoor Nationals then they did indoors and ran a qaulification process it would go a long ways towards expanding field archery .....


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## WV Has Been (Aug 9, 2002)

centerx said:


> If the NFAA put 1/2 the money and effort into Outdoor Nationals then they did indoors and ran a qaulification process it would go a long ways towards expanding field archery .....


If they got half the people that they got indoor they would probably put half as munch money into promoting the events.:wink:

I think the first step for improving the Outdoor National attendance is improving the conditions to attend the event. Monday through Friday is not good conditions for most.

To grow field archery it needs to be done on a local level. I have seen some major improvements in this category over the last several years. The HillBilly shoot in Western Maryland has introduced an accountable number of shooters to field archery over the last three years.


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## rock monkey (Dec 28, 2002)

dont put all the blame on promoting the nationals or the field game solely on the nfaa.

we as members have to take some of that blame too. without out us, there is no governing org.

how many of us contribute to our clubs with their field programs? they dont have one? why is that? how many field clubs have both formats? just because you have cut and maintained lanes for a field course, doesnt mean you cant have 3d shoots in the same lanes.

yeah, some clubs have problems with people tearing up the lanes and markers. why are those types of people still members? doesnt take much to put up a few trail cameras on a few lanes in discrete places to keep the club members honest.

yeah, disposable income is tight for individuals.....even tighter for the clubs. once people get over this 'whats in it for me' mentality and start thinking big picture, for the good of the sport things will get better across the board.


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## field14 (May 21, 2002)

rock monkey said:


> dont put all the blame on promoting the nationals or the field game solely on the nfaa.
> 
> we as members have to take some of that blame too. without out us, there is no governing org.
> 
> ...


Yes, you are "on target" with your comments here too...I know of MANY PLACES...fortunately, not in my area!!!...where bowhunters, 3-der die-hards, etc have intentionally defaced the targets, torn out the blocks or stakes, and otherwise created havoc on the field ranges...just because they didn't feel that field shooting was a "game of merit." I know of many places I've been where a "spottie" was chastised, or "spottie rounds" were refused a place in the building....the die-hard bowhunters/ 3-Ders would totally refuse to shoot "spots" or on the line with a "spottie"!!! YES THIS IS TRUE in some areas of this country today!

Like I said, however, in my present location, we have the best group of ARCHERS I've run across in over 40 years of competitive shooting.....you put up ANYTHING to shoot at, and the people here are going to shoot it and support it (within reason, of course)! They support INDOOR leagues, they support field shoots for the most part, they support 900 tournament rounds....you name it, and they'll try to support it!

Now....those of us wanting something PROACTIVE out of the NFAA..>BEWARE!! and I mean BEWARE!!!

You might well be accused by _some_ in "leadership" positions of the NFAA of "having a personal agenda that is not for the betterment of the organization or archery in general." 
BEWARE....there are those out there that have that "opinion" to anything that might rock the boat and cause PROACTIVE responsibilities within the NFAA!!!

field14


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## centerx (Jun 13, 2002)

Undoubtedly it goes both ways. However like I had mentioned before successful models on how to grow outdoor field already exist. You simply have to adopt them 

First every successful shoot incorporates a weekend. Heck every successful sports incorporates a weekend for the most part 

Every successful shoot has its own draw and appeal. Right now Outdoor Nationals has nothing going for it. It’s got plenty to compete with for people’s attention during the summer. Plus it’s organized wrong from a time commitment standpoint just to name a few. You want to pull peoples time and money you better be doing something that they find better value in then other options competing for the same 

The IBO has a “qualification” standard and they have tournaments held at every local club across the nation. These are also normally some of the best ran and attended shoots that these clubs put on. However what people are showing up for is a chance at the worlds which apparently is a product that most people want to strive to attend …. Which gets me back to what do people find value in with Outdoor Nationals 

Leadership in this issue has to come from both sides. I can volunteer and practically run my own shoot and bust my azz if I need. However with nothing beyond that single event for shooters what’s the point. 

I can come to work everyday and bust my azz as well. However without marketing, enticing products and a distribution network it makes no difference how hard I work.. The results will still be dismal 

If your going to get me to spend a week in small town America in the middle of the summer you might want to think about some local bands of difference styles of music nightly. Some pro ams , Some free seminars , chances for drawings for hunts ??? The reason I was going to go this year is fore the COST my RETURN would be worth it . 

Point is pop a tent up in the middle of a 90 degree cornfield once a year and tell me to take a week of work to come shoot it.... oh and by the way the rest of the 19 hours your not shooting does not have much to offer is not really the best product you can develop 

The NFAA is going the right direction in recent years but this one event needs to catch up


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## Bob_Looney (Nov 17, 2003)

And they still haven't learned how to post results after each days shooting. 

Day one of 3d Nationals complete and no scores.

Calm down Field .....


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## field14 (May 21, 2002)

Bob_Looney said:


> And they still haven't learned how to post results after each days shooting.
> 
> Day one of 3d Nationals complete and no scores.
> 
> Calm down Field .....


actually, I'm pretty calm anyways....no real skin off my nose....just frustrating that "they" (we) keep doing the same thing over and over and over, having little to no success, and yet expect DIFFERENT results??

If I did that with my teaching...I'd be fired with a big box of matches!

field14


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## mdbowhunter (Oct 22, 2002)

I'll be rooting for Jesse and Hinkey.  Not only are they talented...but you couldn't ask for two classier individuals to represent the best in archery. :thumbs_up


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## PA Dutch (Jan 27, 2003)

*Yankton Courses*

Any word from those attending the shoot on what the new courses are like? I figure some folks must be out practicing on them today?

Greg


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## Dave T (Mar 24, 2004)

field14 said:


> Why would the NFAA want to spend tons of ad money for OUTDOOR Nationals...that has been going downhill for years...


Well how about this for a reason...they are the National FIELD Archery Association. Promoting FIELD ARCHERY would seem to be a no brainer. Of course doing something because it's the right thing to do isn't popular anymore is it?

As as for shooting less arrows at less targets, FITA Field does just that. 3 arrows each at 24 targets and their Natoinals is done in 3 days. Sorry boys but FITA Field is about the only national archery championship that draws less attendance than the NFAA natonals. Less arrows and less targets is not a solution.

Oh and about we/us being the NFAA. I have been working for over 3 years (since moving to this area) to promote field and keep it alive. Despite two letters and three phone calls the help (even in the form of suggestions or advice) I got from the NFAA was...ZERO! I'm now putting on 4 club field shoots each year, plus the state championship and 3 other field related events. This in spite of the NFAA, not with their help.

Dave


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## SuperX (May 21, 2002)

The new courses are pretty flat though badlands is nicely wooded, most of Rushmore and Missouri are in a grassy field. More than half of the shots are walk backs around the south side of all of the ranges. No need for techno-toys at all which I know will please Field14  - and nothing I saw on Rushmore or Badlands would require anyone to cut an inch - which will please the seniors who were worried about dropping dead on the old ranges. Those who complained the ranges were too hard last time in Yankton now have their wish. If we had umbrellas it would be a FITA! :wink:


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## field14 (May 21, 2002)

PA Dutch said:


> Any word from those attending the shoot on what the new courses are like? I figure some folks must be out practicing on them today?
> 
> Greg


Too HOT, too windy, too flat, too hilly, too open, not enough water, not enough cover, too many bugs, too far to walk, not enough benches....

you know.....all the standard complaints.....

field14


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## field14 (May 21, 2002)

SuperX said:


> The new courses are pretty flat though badlands is nicely wooded, most of Rushmore and Missouri are in a grassy field. More than half of the shots are walk backs around the south side of all of the ranges. No need for techno-toys at all which I know will please Field14  - and nothing I saw on Rushmore or Badlands would require anyone to cut an inch - which will please the seniors who were worried about dropping dead on the old ranges. Those who complained the ranges were too hard last time in Yankton now have their wish. If _we had umbrellas it would be a FITA_! :wink:


Now THAT depends upon WHERE the umbies are and what they are being used FOR....

IF they are being used on the shooting stakes to block the wind from the shooter's bowarm....then it is ASA...NOT FITA, and definitely no place for that in FIELD SHOOTING...

If they are being used to SHADE the shooter so that he/she can SEE the target better...then it MIGHT be on a field range....but NOT FITA...but would be ASA, too

IF they are WELL BEHIND the shooting line and are NOT allowed to be used to SHADE the shooter on the shooting line or for any other aid to the shooter on the line...then yes, that is FITA!

Couldn't resist...the opening was there, there was no danger, so I took the shot!:wink::tongue:

There are TWO "O"s in gOOse! Do you have the number to that truck driver's school?


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## PA Dutch (Jan 27, 2003)

*Yankton Courses*



SuperX said:


> The new courses are pretty flat though badlands is nicely wooded, most of Rushmore and Missouri are in a grassy field. More than half of the shots are walk backs around the south side of all of the ranges. No need for techno-toys at all which I know will please Field14  - and nothing I saw on Rushmore or Badlands would require anyone to cut an inch - which will please the seniors who were worried about dropping dead on the old ranges. Those who complained the ranges were too hard last time in Yankton now have their wish. If we had umbrellas it would be a FITA! :wink:



Thanks for the info Super.

Greg


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## SuperX (May 21, 2002)

field14 said:


> Now THAT depends upon WHERE the umbies are and what they are being used FOR....
> 
> IF they are being used on the shooting stakes to block the wind from the shooter's bowarm....then it is ASA...NOT FITA, and definitely no place for that in FIELD SHOOTING...
> 
> ...


HA!!! Good one


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## field14 (May 21, 2002)

Is there ever a REAL NEED for the techno-toys? I hardly think so....it, IMHO is a figmant of some wannabee's and newbies' imaginations and visions of grandeur that makes them "appear" to be NEEDED out there....

OF course, some marketing HYPE by "sponsored shooters" helps to promote the MYTH of NEEDING the techno-toys in order to shoot well.

Better YOUR money being tossed out the window for little of anything than MINE however, hahahahahaha.

field14


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## south-paaw (Jul 3, 2006)

field14 said:


> Now THAT depends upon WHERE the umbies are and what they are being used FOR....
> 
> IF they are being used on the shooting stakes to block the wind from the shooter's bowarm....then it is ASA...NOT FITA, and definitely no place for that in FIELD SHOOTING...
> 
> ...




```

```
 "and broke a major rule of engagement..... " :tongue:... good ONE tomcat !


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## field14 (May 21, 2002)

south-paaw said:


> ```
> 
> ```
> "and broke a major rule of engagement..... " :tongue:... good ONE tomcat !


Strider......you.....STINK......

There were bogeys all over the sky....now which one does the field shooter pick for to site their clinometer on for the "cut angle"....which bogey does the field shooter use for punching into the palm pilot...and WHICH bogey does the "accomplished and fully equipped" field shooter use to get a proper reading on the "CUZLITE FLIPOMETER"....get yours for only $199.99...while they last...a MUST HAVE for any "fully equipped" field shooter...don't be caught on the range without a "CuzLite FLIPOMETER." You cannot score well without one....and MUST HAVE all the other tehno-toys as a pre-requisite... Otherwise....your fly-by won't be approved....because..."The Pattern is CLOSED"...."oh, I HATE that guy."

As in "take me to bed, or lose me forever." or...>I feel the NEED, the NEED for SPEED!

field14


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## Dave T (Mar 24, 2004)

field14 said:


> Is there ever a REAL NEED for the techno-toys?


field 14, I'm a barebow recurve field shooter. Do you want me to answer that question? (smile)

Dave


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## Jbird (May 21, 2002)

*Another F14 Rant*

Of course no one can remember being slowed down by people using techno toys. And no one can remember it taking 5 hours to shoot a field round but
that doesn't square with the crusade. I bet F14 has gone through this litany at least 10 times on here and it's still addressing a problem that doesn't exist in the real world that I can find. Tom, if you don't want to use a clinometer, angle/range finder, cut sheets, or palm pilot then by all means don't do it. Although I own a few of those items I only occasionally take them on the range with me and then use them rarely. Most of the people I know (including pros) don't use the stuff much either. Can't remember taking more than 4 hours to shoot a field round including following behind a group of traditional shooters that were going on Easter egg hunts on every other target at the Nationals. Are the people in Illinois just slower than the rest of the US or are you just reporting what you think rather than what you
have seen?
Jbird


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## Hutnicks (Feb 9, 2006)

field14 said:


> Strider......you.....STINK......
> 
> There were bogeys all over the sky....now which one does the field shooter pick for to site their clinometer on for the "cut angle"....which bogey does the field shooter use for punching into the palm pilot...and WHICH bogey does the "accomplished and fully equipped" field shooter use to get a proper reading on the "CUZLITE FLIPOMETER"....get yours for only $199.99...while they last...a MUST HAVE for any "fully equipped" field shooter...don't be caught on the range without a "CuzLite FLIPOMETER." You cannot score well without one....and MUST HAVE all the other tehno-toys as a pre-requisite... Otherwise....your fly-by won't be approved....because..."The Pattern is CLOSED"...."oh, I HATE that guy."
> 
> As in "take me to bed, or lose me forever." or...>I feel the NEED, the NEED for SPEED!field14


Well you won't be getting that here, it's regulated too. There will be no "thumping the heater" at NFAA shoots


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## WV Has Been (Aug 9, 2002)

Jbird said:


> Of course no one can remember being slowed down by people using techno toys. And no one can remember it taking 5 hours to shoot a field round but
> that doesn't square with the crusade. I bet F14 has gone through this litany at least 10 times on here and it's still addressing a problem that doesn't exist in the real world that I can find. Tom, if you don't want to use a clinometer, angle/range finder, cut sheets, or palm pilot then by all means don't do it. Although I own a few of those items I only occasionally take them on the range with me and then use them rarely. Most of the people I know (including pros) don't use the stuff much either. Can't remember taking more than 4 hours to shoot a field round including following behind a group of traditional shooters that were going on Easter egg hunts on every other target at the Nationals. Are the people in Illinois just slower than the rest of the US or are you just reporting what you think rather than what you
> have seen?
> Jbird



I don't remember ever shooting a round at a National Outdoor that took less than 6 hours other than the Animal on Friday. That was well before the tech-no toys, lets say mid 90's.


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## jarlicker (Jul 29, 2002)

When I was shooting AMFSL I can remember being last off the range several times. Getting in after 5 pm. Most of the time the Bare bow shooters and Womens Pros were last off the range. The competition get fierce. The play slows down.At the Nationals the play is just normally slow. All it takes is a equipment failure or rules question and you will be out there a while. Average time finishing was normally around 2- 3 pm.
That is a about 1 hour longer than normal for a local shoot. Never felt like people using gadgets was a problem. Most of the people using them were not the better shooters.


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## Jbird (May 21, 2002)

*Slow Times*

Having shot 5 nationals in the last few years the only time I remember being excessively slow was the fiasco at the Glen in 2004 on the day of the animal round when they tried to shoot the NFAA target and the IFAA target in the same round with the shooters having to change the faces after each end. It seems to be normal to have to wait for the group in front of you to finish shooting the 80 yd walkup but never had to wait to shoot other than that. Does seem to go a little slower when there are a group of Pros in front of you. I guess there aren't as many people now as back in the old days so the courses flow pretty well. At local shoots you can shoot 28 in 3 to 3 1/2 hours with no problem.
Jbird


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## Brown Hornet (Aug 8, 2002)

Jbird said:


> Of course no one can remember being slowed down by people using techno toys. And no one can remember it taking 5 hours to shoot a field round but
> that doesn't square with the crusade. I bet F14 has gone through this litany at least 10 times on here and it's still addressing a problem that doesn't exist in the real world that I can find. Tom, if you don't want to use a clinometer, angle/range finder, cut sheets, or palm pilot then by all means don't do it. Although I own a few of those items I only occasionally take them on the range with me and then use them rarely. Most of the people I know (including pros) don't use the stuff much either. Can't remember taking more than 4 hours to shoot a field round including following behind a group of traditional shooters that were going on Easter egg hunts on every other target at the Nationals. Are the people in Illinois just slower than the rest of the US or are you just reporting what you think rather than what you
> have seen?
> Jbird


Got to agree with Jibed on this one.:wink:

As I have stated a couple times this year....I have shot with Hinky a few times this year....and several others that use "toys". The majority of the guys without the "toys" are slower then the guys with them.

We shot a round yesterday and it took us a little over 4 hours to shoot it....no "toys" were used....well Vince used his range finder on 3 or 4 targets. But we shot at the same time and EVERY target but maybe one he finished shooting before I did....:wink: and the only reason we took that long to shoot was the heat....it was nearly 100 with way too much humidity.:faint:

So again....it's time to stop the "toys" rant....at least when it comes to the reason of saying that they are slowing the rounds down. I know it takes more time for me to try and figure out the cut...then it does to click one button on a range finder. :wink:


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## JAVI (Jun 19, 2003)

Brown Hornet said:


> Got to agree with Jibed on this one.:wink:
> 
> As I have stated a couple times this year....I have shot with Hinky a few times this year....and several others that use "toys". The majority of the guys without the "toys" are slower then the guys with them.
> 
> ...


Come on Hornet... You should be able to look at the target and say cut 2.75 yards while you're setting your sight...:wink: How did all them folks in the old days shoot all them good scores before they invented the gizmos...


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## Brown Hornet (Aug 8, 2002)

WV Has Been said:


> and no buzz.
> 
> Can Hinky Dink repeat??
> 
> ...



Well that is because the only promotion of this shoot comes from this website.:zip:

*Hornet's Predictions*

*Pro Men*... 
The Shooter
Bird Man
Will-X-it

*Pro Woman*.... 
Jamie V....

*FS Men* .... 
Hinky Dinky (of course)

*BHFS*......
Phantom (I don't know if he is going but if he does.....he is bringing a silver bowl back to Va)


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## JAVI (Jun 19, 2003)

Senior BHFS Steve Coleman:wink:


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## pragmatic_lee (Jan 19, 2008)

And even it it did take a little extra time, "why is everyone in a hurry?". The closest Field range to me is 51 miles, so that means 102 miles round trip. It's kinda like "paid for sex" - you don't want it to be over too quick. :wink:

Frankly, at my age, I'd welcome catching up with the group ahead of me, a few moments of rest between ends is quite welcomed.


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## Brown Hornet (Aug 8, 2002)

JAVI said:


> Come on Hornet... You should be able to look at the target and say cut 2.75 yards while you're setting your sight...:wink: How did all them folks in the old days shoot all them good scores before they invented the gizmos...


No no....that isn't what I am saying....

I know how to use MY system to get my cut....BUT I am saying that it is FASTER and EASIER to use a good range finder to do it. That's it nothing more nothing less.:wink:


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## pragmatic_lee (Jan 19, 2008)

Brown Hornet said:


> Well that is because the only promotion of this shoot comes from this website.:zip:
> 
> *Hornet's Predictions*
> 
> ...


I'm going out on a limb and predicting that NC's own Tim Eaton will place in the top 3 in BHFS.


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## JAVI (Jun 19, 2003)

Brown Hornet said:


> No no....that isn't what I am saying....
> 
> I know how to use MY system to get my cut....BUT I am saying that it is FASTER and EASIER to use a good range finder to do it. That's it nothing more nothing less.:wink:


It would be faster if that's all there was to it... but most of the guys using them for competition don't just point and click then set their sights.. They got to get out the charts and consult the stars then double check the yardage... It don't make me any difference how long it takes to shoot a round, in fact I like it slow because of my leg...


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## pragmatic_lee (Jan 19, 2008)

JAVI said:


> It would be faster if that's all there was to it... but most of the guys using them for competition don't just point and click then set their sights.. They got to get out the charts and consult the stars then double check the yardage... It don't make me any difference how long it takes to shoot a round,* in fact I like it slow *because of my leg...



See post 40 (somehow I always manage to get the last post on each page of a multi-page thread). :tongue:


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## Hutnicks (Feb 9, 2006)

JAVI said:


> Come on Hornet... You should be able to look at the target and say cut 2.75 yards while you're setting your sight...:wink: How did all them folks in the old days shoot all them good scores before they invented the gizmos...


Hey Javi, you KNOW all those scores were inflated over the years, to perpetuate the myth of Archery's Golden age Much like great grandad in Florida who had to belly crawl over the mountains through 49 feet of snow to get to school every day. Couldn't possibly have shot those big numbers without battery assistance:wink:


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## Dave T (Mar 24, 2004)

"Cuts", "clinometers"...sometimes reading the stuff you guys post is like listening to a foreign language. (smiley face goes here)

Dave


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## field14 (May 21, 2002)

Jbird said:


> Of course no one can remember being slowed down by people using techno toys. And no one can remember it taking 5 hours to shoot a field round but
> that doesn't square with the crusade. I bet F14 has gone through this litany at least 10 times on here and it's still addressing a problem that doesn't exist in the real world that I can find. Tom, if you don't want to use a clinometer, angle/range finder, cut sheets, or palm pilot then by all means don't do it. Although I own a few of those items I only occasionally take them on the range with me and then use them rarely. Most of the people I know (including pros) don't use the stuff much either. Can't remember taking more than 4 hours to shoot a field round including following behind a group of traditional shooters that were going on Easter egg hunts on every other target at the Nationals. Are the people in Illinois just slower than the rest of the US or are you just reporting what you think rather than what you
> have seen?
> Jbird


Jay,
I beg to differ with you, but the last SEVERAL nationals, people were whining about SOME FOLKS taking over 6 HOURS to complete their rounds...this was posted right here on AT.

As far as "no longer that 4 hours"...I know much better than that too...at a NATIONAL EVENT....been there myself...and even on the OLD target face....4 hours was pushing it a lot at a NATIONAL event.

I also know for a FACT that the Nationals I attended in Aurora and on the Hill at Watkins Glen....NEVER were we done on those courses in 4 hours or less....we made the 5 hour ENFORCED time limit...but NEVER got any round, other than the animal, done in 4 hours or less.

So....again...the peeing and moaning the past two NATIONALS for sure, here on AT was talking about HOW LONG...and OVER 5 hours it was taking people to shoot their scores at the NFAA Outdoor NATIONALS! 
I remember you griping about the heat and how tough the footing was and that you were out there ALL DAY LONG to get the round shot.....so why the sudden change back to "under 4 hours" even when following traditional shooters that were looking for arrows?

Don't give me this "real world" stuff either....I didn't come into this sport yesterday....and MAYBE, for small tournaments, WE get done in under 4 hours...but even that is pushing it....but for NATIONAL events....none I've been to even before the techno-toys were completed in under 4 hours.

As far as using a "rangefinder" to get your cut.....fine if it "compensates"...but the BETTER and FASTER way...experience, PRACTICE, and PAYING ATTENTION...that stuff is NOT NEEDED...useful? Maybe. NEEDED so that you MUST spend the money in order to shoot well...absolutely NOT.

Buy them and use them if you want to...but you will NOT be buying automatic 540 or 500+ scores simply by carrying one and using it...especially if you trust it explicitly...more to it than just setting your site for the "cut" and tossing the arrow down range...MUCH MORE....

Frankly, I'd recommend you spend the money on fuel to get to the range to PRACTICE and LEARN HOW YOUR EQUIPMENT SHOOTS rather than spending hundreds of dollars on "techno-toys" that mainly are used to "verify" the top echelon shooters "gut feelings"....they won't buy you points from the high 540's to the middle 550's...THAT will come from experience, work, practice, and knowing how YOU and your equipment perform under given circumstances...and the only way to BUY that experience...is to get out and SHOOT...not spend the money on toys to carry and lug around with you.

But, it is your money...do with it as you will....attempting to buy scores has sure overcome what WORK AND PRACTICE used to achieve...people just want it by BUYING it and osmosis...not wanting to WORK for it.

field14


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## X Hunter (Jan 11, 2007)

Brown Hornet said:


> Well that is because the only promotion of this shoot comes from this website.:zip:
> 
> *Hornet's Predictions*
> 
> ...



Yep the phantom the bulldog and treaton left sun... Get em boys!!!


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## field14 (May 21, 2002)

X Hunter said:


> Yep the phantom the bulldog and treaton left sun... Get em boys!!!


In the Men's Pros...don't leave out JIMMY BUTTS...he was so close last year; one never knows....

Of course there are others that can do it too.

IF the courses are as "flat" and "cut-free" as people are saying...the questions are...

HOW MANY PERFECT 560's will be shot this week?

Will there finally be a PERFECT 560 on the FIELD ROUND after all these years?

Will anyone shoot 28 "dots" on the animal round?

Will there actually be days when nearly everyone finishes their rounds in UNDER 4 hours?

Will there be days when everyone finishes in UNDER 5 hours?

field14:wink::tongue::darkbeer:


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## X Hunter (Jan 11, 2007)

QUOTE=field14;7264821]In the Men's Pros...don't leave out JIMMY BUTTS...he was so close last year; one never knows....

Always a strong contender!!!

Of course there are others that can do it too.

IF the courses are as "flat" and "cut-free" as people are saying...the questions are...

HOW MANY PERFECT 560's will be shot this week?

i say 2 at most

Will there finally be a PERFECT 560 on the FIELD ROUND after all these years?

dont bank on it

Will anyone shoot 28 "dots" on the animal round?

PRObably not

Will there actually be days when nearly everyone finishes their rounds in UNDER 4 hours?

You know the answer to that!!!

Will there be days when everyone finishes in UNDER 5 hours?

Once again you already know the answer

field14:wink::tongue::darkbeer:[/QUOTE]


:wink:


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## Jbird (May 21, 2002)

*Tom*

I remember complaining about the heat, the steep trails, and the loose footing at Yankton but don't recall complaining about how long it took to shoot the courses. I'm not using the toys either unless you consider using
the computer programs to make a sight tape using toys. We routinely shoot about five different field courses around here so it doesn't take long to learn the courses and how to shoot each target if you make notes. Many people make a chart for each different course that shows THEIR sight setting and if the target shoots high, left, right, or low. A simple 3" X 4" card in the pocket made with the toys and personal experience can be carried in your pocket and you can leave the toys in the car. I know that charts like this exist for every range at Watkins Glen and the shooters in the know use them. I guess guessing cuts could be fun for some in much the same way that guessing yardage is fun for 3-D shooters. Personally I think my time is better spent making the shot with good form. Different strokes for different folks. By all means don't use any of the new aids if you don't like them. But on the other hand I don't think it is productive to constantly hack on the people that do and pushing the idea that techno toys have slowed shooting down to a crawl because that is simply not the case. I have been fortunate to have the opportunity to shoot with some of the house hold names in this sport and everyone of them takes every technical advantage they can including using
all the tools (particularly on ranges new to them). You can spend your time 
dreaming about the good old days and how it used to be and that is fine. I'm still out there doing it most weekends and concerned about how it is now. Dave Cousins is as good a field shooter as you will find and he occasionally uses the rangefinders and toys to double check something he's not sure of. Of course he is looking for every single point he can get where the difference between 558 and 557 can make the difference in winning and losing. Use what you want but get off the rant, you aren't changing anyone's mind anyway.
Jbird


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## Bees (Jan 28, 2003)

Jbird said:


> I remember complaining about the heat, the steep trails, and the loose footing at Yankton but don't recall complaining about how long it took to shoot the courses. I'm not using the toys either unless you consider using
> the computer programs to make a sight tape using toys. We routinely shoot about five different field courses around here so it doesn't take long to learn the courses and how to shoot each target if you make notes. Many people make a chart for each different course that shows THEIR sight setting and if the target shoots high, left, right, or low. A simple 3" X 4" card in the pocket made with the toys and personal experience can be carried in your pocket and you can leave the toys in the car. I know that charts like this exist for every range at Watkins Glen and the shooters in the know use them. I guess guessing cuts could be fun for some in much the same way that guessing yardage is fun for 3-D shooters. Personally I think my time is better spent making the shot with good form. Different strokes for different folks. By all means don't use any of the new aids if you don't like them. But on the other hand I don't think it is productive to constantly hack on the people that do and pushing the idea that techno toys have slowed shooting down to a crawl because that is simply not the case. I have been fortunate to have the opportunity to shoot with some of the house hold names in this sport and everyone of them takes every technical advantage they can including using
> all the tools (particularly on ranges new to them). You can spend your time
> dreaming about the good old days and how it used to be and that is fine. I'm still out there doing it most weekends and concerned about how it is now. Dave Cousins is as good a field shooter as you will find and he occasionally uses the rangefinders and toys to double check something he's not sure of. Of course he is looking for every single point he can get where the difference between 558 and 557 can make the difference in winning and losing. Use what you want but get off the rant, you aren't changing anyone's mind anyway.
> Jbird


JBird, do you know where one could buy the Field14 approved Palm Pilot and inclinometer???? I already got a a umbrella that says Field 14 on it.


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## field14 (May 21, 2002)

The "rant" is in trying to get people to realize that the "toys" are just that...and unless they are very, very experienced, spending that kind of money on them when their form and equipment knowledge is questionable at best...is a waste of their money.

Jay, you know I wasn't born yesterday. You also know that I've been in the mid to upper 550 level in the past and health took me down.

I KNOW what the top echelon shooters are doing, and WHY they are doing it; don't need that to be pointed out to me. I also get around...maybe not "face time" at the tournaments...but I "get around", so I can keep a pretty good pulse on the game without trapsing around the country spending money I don't have.

Yes, you did complain about taking all day to shoot your rounds the last time you were at Yankton...along with others that said SOME people were well over SIX hours to complete their rounds. In addition, there were SOME that complained about six hours or "all day" at Darrington last year too.

Enough of this....there definitely HAS BEEN a slow down in the completion of the rounds at the Nationals in the past 5 to 6 years. It has got to be related to people TRYING to get higher scores...either by using the toys to excess, or by ogling the target, ogling their shots, and figuring and re-figuring this or that.....It sure isn't from MORE arrows being shot, or that people are holding at full draw that much longer.

SOME people don't have a problem with "all day"...but yet on the other hand, if it is a hot or humid day, will cry like crazy that they were stuck out there all day long to complete their round...a double edged sword....they want to take their time...but then, when it gets uncomfortable...they whine about the "slow play." Can't have both.

If those courses are out in the open or only slightly shaded...I sure would hope people would move along and maybe, just maybe get 'er DUN...in between 4 and 5 hours.

You and I know that at THIS Nationals...it is very doubtful indeed that most of the shooters will finish their 28 field or 28 hunter rounds in UNDER 4 hours. It is doubtful that they'll do it UNDER 5 hours.

Funny part....scores are not that significantly higher, even when it is taking longer to shoot.

Will there be some PERFECT 560 FIELD rounds this week? If the courses are "cut-free" and flat....the only controlling factors might be the wind and the shooters themselves, and how well they handle the pressure.

Last year at Darrington, there were two perfect 560's on the hunter round in the same group, on the same day. Will that be duplicated this year, or even bettered?


field14:tongue::wink:


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## Bob_Looney (Nov 17, 2003)

"Enough of this....there definitely HAS BEEN a slow down in the completion of the rounds at the Nationals in the past 5 to 6 years. It has got to be related to people TRYING to get higher scores...either by using the toys to excess, or by ogling the target, ogling their shots, and figuring and re-figuring this or that.....It sure isn't from MORE arrows being shot, or that people are holding at full draw that much longer."

It's taken 5 hours to shoot a 28 for the 34 years I've been doing it. Maybe we're slower out here.
A nationals certainly wouldn't go any faster, especially with people on every target.
Not to be a wise a ss but if you got out and shot some tournaments like your State Field you would see why it takes 5+ hours to shoot. We don't have 10' wide shooting lanes where we could shoot 4 people at a time any more. You don't shoot 2 at a time on quite a few butts because the 2nd stake is stuck in the bushes. We don't have groomed field courses in every town any more. We're lucky to have ONE in a single state. And that course probably has 2 or 3 guys doing all the work.
And yes, I'm well aware of the "Minimum Course Requirements" needed for NFAA sanctioning.
But, the reality is, It's not a "Field14" world out there.
It is, what it is, and we make do with it.


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## field14 (May 21, 2002)

Bees said:


> JBird, do you know where one could buy the Field14 approved Palm Pilot and inclinometer???? I already got a a umbrella that says Field 14 on it.


Hot darn! I'm gonna have to get a copyright to "field14" if this sort of thing continues....then I could sue for "copyright infringement." :wink::tongue::tongue:

Duz ya gots a "3-Der's cool stool" with field14 inscribed on it too?

Just as bad as being burned in effigy....but I gots a big bottle of duck oil...so....have your fun....

Are the FISH BITING YET?

field14


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## WV Has Been (Aug 9, 2002)

O'kay now that some of this back and forth stuff is over:

*Does the NFAA really need to grow the Outdoor Nationals?*

Would ten ranges be doable?

Would seven ranges be doable?

Whats the answer to receive bids with so many ranges?


*If the NFAA does need to grow the Outdoor National what is the answer to growth?*

Would a weekend event create growth?

Is the Monday through Friday format truly the best format.

Is meeting in the middle with a Wednesday through Sunday with a best of two twice the answer?

Would your club tackle such a large event if they could make over $35,000.00 dollars?






We have numerous complaints with minimal cures. Most complaints are opinion and not factual. Some complaints are factual and argued with opinion.

Complaints about length of time a round takes.

Complaints about heat.

Complaints about a locations conditions.

Complaints about doing the same thing over and over and expecting different result.

Complaints are easy to manufacture. I say if you have a complaint state a responsible and reasonable cure or keep it to yourself.:tongue:


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## pragmatic_lee (Jan 19, 2008)

Complaint: Range not close enough to me to shoot as often as I'd like.

Solution: Build my own range (progress well on the way)

:tongue:


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## DarrinM (May 21, 2002)

Hinky has 554 day one.....


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## Hutnicks (Feb 9, 2006)

field14 said:


> Hot darn! I'm gonna have to get a copyright to "field14" if this sort of thing continues....then I could sue for "copyright infringement." :wink::tongue::tongue:
> 
> Duz ya gots a "3-Der's cool stool" with field14 inscribed on it too?
> 
> ...


By god, that's crazy enough to work. Open up the product line, finesse your way into being official sponsor, sell out to the diamond for zillions and laugh all the way to the bank:d:


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## Jbird (May 21, 2002)

*Has Been*

You know what I think. The best solution is the 3/5 day option held Wed through Sunday. It, in my opinion, is the best of both worlds. It gives the weekend 3 day'ers a chance to shoot and gives the hard cores the opportunity to shoot for five days. Picking the best two out of 4 scores may
seem unfair to some but it does make an honest effort at giving everyone what they want. What do you estimate the attendance to be this year at Yankton? Next year will be the first opportunity for us to see what the 3/5 over a weekend can generate. I'm betting on a big increase. No doubt it will be augmented somewhat by the fact that most people consider Mechanicsburg a more desirable location. I can already hear the nay sayers though, "it was only bigger because it was in a better location". I'm hoping for 600-700 shooters. Not what you guys enjoyed in the 70's but it's a start.
Jbird


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## field14 (May 21, 2002)

Bob_Looney said:


> "Enough of this....there definitely HAS BEEN a slow down in the completion of the rounds at the Nationals in the past 5 to 6 years. It has got to be related to people TRYING to get higher scores...either by using the toys to excess, or by ogling the target, ogling their shots, and figuring and re-figuring this or that.....It sure isn't from MORE arrows being shot, or that people are holding at full draw that much longer."
> 
> It's taken 5 hours to shoot a 28 for the 34 years I've been doing it. Maybe we're slower out here.
> A nationals certainly wouldn't go any faster, especially with people on every target.
> ...


Bob,
I don't know who you are targeting with this stuff about 5+ hours...but I don't think it is me...since you and I both agree that OVER 5 hours is the norm and NOT the "exception" anymore.

What is worse....in the past several years, people disregard the RULE that states that shooters should shoot 4 abreast when the lanes permit it...We had a few courses both in New York state AND here in Illinois AND in Iowa where the lanes were specifically cut and staked to ALLOW 4 shooters abreast...and guess what? TWO SHOOTERS shot at a time, UNLESS it was a fan target...and the FAN was the ONLY time you could get four shooters to shoot abreast.

In one case, a group of us busted our butts cutting the lanes and staking out the course for 4 abreast shooting. We even had the bales set up on the bunny targets to accommodate 4 abreast.....Come tournament time, one of the guys that busted his butt to get the bunny set up to shoot 4 abreast..>REFUSED TO SHOOT 4 ABREAST on the target....and when I stepped up as the 3rd person and let him sit on his butt...he tried to DQ my score on the target, even tho I was shooting in my "appropriate" vertical row of targets and leaving his row open for him! Of course, he got nowhere...but it just points out how people will NOT COMPLY...even when the lanes are opened up and the courses staked out to shoot 4 abreast...it ain't happening!

I've also seen many times even when a course is set up for 2 abreast....it doesn't happen...it slows to ONE at a time...especially if one stake is a tad more "comfy" than the other one, or someone has worked a bit harder to "level out" one stake over the other.

I could go on and on how people and the way they shoot the course just slow things up....on walkups for example....simply cuz of "local procedure" and the belief that you MUST shoot 2 at a time so two can "spot" and two can "shoot"....even when the course is laid out for 4 abreast!

Like you said, however....often times, the inspectors are stuck between giving a course "approval" or not having a course on the register. So corners are cut...and those corners cut are normally...benches, wider shooting lanes, and "walk-back" targets to save space and trail cutting.

I've designed and built several field courses in the past 40+ years...and getting wide, clear lanes and KEEPING THEM THAT WAY...has been a problem...that and "justifying the expense" of having the course in the first place....they will say it isn't shot...but we are out changing target faces several times a month because they are shot out....from DISUSE, that is, hahaha

The targets evidently shoot holes in themselves or something....I dunno....

field14


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## field14 (May 21, 2002)

Jbird said:


> You know what I think. The best solution is the 3/5 day option held Wed through Sunday. It, in my opinion, is the best of both worlds. It gives the weekend 3 day'ers a chance to shoot and gives the hard cores the opportunity to shoot for five days. Picking the best two out of 4 scores may
> seem unfair to some but it does make an honest effort at giving everyone what they want. What do you estimate the attendance to be this year at Yankton? Next year will be the first opportunity for us to see what the 3/5 over a weekend can generate. I'm betting on a big increase. No doubt it will be augmented somewhat by the fact that most people consider Mechanicsburg a more desirable location. I can already hear the nay sayers though, "it was only bigger because it was in a better location". I'm hoping for 600-700 shooters. Not what you guys enjoyed in the 70's but it's a start.
> Jbird



Jay,
I know where you are coming from. The problem is the NFAA has always seemed to give something new a ONE or max of TWO-time try and then abandon it as "not working"...they want INSTANT results without promoting the changes, or allowing things time to "settle in".. In addition...we (the NFAA) seem to be wishy-washy with the "rules" or the way things are done...if someone violates a rule....they hope it doesn't get protested and will go away...or if they "know" a rule is going to be pushed...they turn away and hope someone doesn't say anything...and then if it does cause a stir....they claim "no jurisdiction."

Vote something in...and a day or so later...vote it out...based upon?????

I would suspect that at least 4 or 5 Nationals IN A ROW of the 3/5 option would be in order before one could make a decent and fair evaluation of how it is "working" or whether it is "trash" or not.

Archers are fickle and finicky....and are very prone to Protesting things or boycotting things if they think it treads on their special turf area. Funny thing is we ALL are guilty of it at one time or another!

The 3/5 option....with Wed-Sun makes perfect sense to me, and personally I don't have a problem with taking the best field and best hunter out of the mix and that is what goes, along with your only animal score...SOME, however will pee and moan and "boycott" if it is done this way....just because....you gotta be right next to your "competition"; otherwise it is invalid or something like that..>HOGWASH!

EVERYONE has the option on the 3/5 to shoot all 5 days or shoot 3 and take what they get...those are the RULES...they are announced in advance...and those that wanna, WILL SHOOT, and those that don't...you ain't gonna get 'em there anyways.

It is impossible outdoors for everyone to shoot every target on every day under the SAME EXACT CONDITIONS...even on the same course from hour to hour or from morning to afternoon...the conditions DIFFER! Deal with it.

field14


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## Rattleman (Jul 6, 2004)

Frankly it takes from 5 to 6 hours. SOOOOOOO stop complaining. The people that complain are at home anyway so why does it even matter. Oh and by the way never much to do after a shoot anyway so why rush? And a question for F14.... instead of whinning why not just go out and shoot. Next topic this horse is dead.


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## swerve (Jun 5, 2005)

Rattleman said:


> Frankly it takes from 5 to 6 hours. SOOOOOOO stop complaining. The people that complain are at home anyway so why does it even matter. Oh and by the way never much to do after a shoot anyway so why rush? And a question for F14.... instead of whinning why not just go out and shoot. Next topic this horse is dead.


No bud this horse is never dead They get a rush just trying to beat the quiver out of it.:deadhorse

I guess I don't understand the reason that a 3 day weekend format is undoable.

The most successful outdoor venue I have been to is Redding(basically field on foam) and it is gaining in participation.  3 Day Format and not easy of a venue to get to. 

Even a 3 day with any amount of travel uses significant vacation to make the trip. Wonder why there are very few younger people at field events. Because we haven't been with the same company for 20 years to have a month and a half worth of vacation to burn.

If you shoot 5 days, the scores should be averaged and not dropped. Why pay money and use vacation time to go and compete with guy who potentially got to drop his brain fart score(s)?


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## WV Has Been (Aug 9, 2002)

Jbird said:


> You know what I think. The best solution is the 3/5 day option held Wed through Sunday. It, in my opinion, is the best of both worlds. It gives the weekend 3 day'ers a chance to shoot and gives the hard cores the opportunity to shoot for five days. Picking the best two out of 4 scores may
> seem unfair to some but it does make an honest effort at giving everyone what they want. What do you estimate the attendance to be this year at Yankton? Next year will be the first opportunity for us to see what the 3/5 over a weekend can generate. I'm betting on a big increase. No doubt it will be augmented somewhat by the fact that most people consider Mechanicsburg a more desirable location. I can already hear the nay sayers though, "it was only bigger because it was in a better location". I'm hoping for 600-700 shooters. Not what you guys enjoyed in the 70's but it's a start.
> Jbird


I do understand your stone cold stand on the format.:wink:

I'm hearing 350 for Yankton. I don't know how accurate that may be but that is the number an attendee gave me.

I wont be surprised to see a big number at Mechanicsburg. Between 600 and 700 would be my guess but it is nothing short of a wild guess.

I think several thing are in Mechanicsburg favor. The 3 day five day will help. The Wednesday through Sunday will help and the number of shooters on the East Coast that can drive to Mechanicsburg in less than 8 hours is a major help. Allot of field shooters are spread across the country but nowhere are they congregated tighter than the North Central East Coast.

I was thinking the other day wonder what would happen to the IBO World Championship if it was moved to Yankton?


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## bowaholic77 (Jul 27, 2006)

Rattleman said:


> Frankly it takes from 5 to 6 hours. SOOOOOOO stop complaining. The people that complain are at home anyway so why does it even matter. Oh and by the way never much to do after a shoot anyway so why rush? And a question for F14.... instead of whinning why not just go out and shoot. Next topic this horse is dead.


Amen:darkbeer:

The nationals may have its problems, but I would rather see some effort put into promoting local feild archery. I am just discovering feild and it has been fantastic each time for me..........but I know plenty of people who have never even heard of it.


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## WV Has Been (Aug 9, 2002)

Jbird said:


> *What do you estimate the attendance to be this year at Yankton? *



Jbird I just went through the results of day one and deleted all the no shows and the final number was *318* scores turned in on day one.:embara::embara::embara:


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## Jbird (May 21, 2002)

*Interesting*

If 350 is the number and I haven't counted the number yet who actually showed up to shoot and turned a score in, that is less than we had at Darrington last year and Darrington is about as remote a location as you
can get. What Darrington does have going for it is mild temperatures, beautiful scenery and ranges, and a great local organization to put the shoot on.
I realize that there is a good group of people who will shoot the Nationals 
even it they move it to Brownsville, Texas in July with the 115 degree days, but I think there are a significant number who look at where they
are going before jumping on Price Line to look for tickets. Darrington, Watkins Glen, and Mechanicsburg are my preference for where to go. Hopefully we will only be looking at Yankton every fourth year. Of course that will only happen if the people speak up and tell the NFAA that they don't want to go to Yankton every other year. Some of your ideas about getting more people on fewer ranges would give an even wider choice of venues. If a lot of the new ranges at Yankton are really out in the open all it will take is to hit one of those weeks in July when the temps are 100-104 degrees out in the sun and people will start dropping like flies and you won't be able to get them back to Yankton. Probably less than 20% of the people who go to the Nationals stand a chance of winning a bowl. The rest of us hackers go for the fun, seeing old friends, and trying to stay in the top half of our peer group. The location makes or breaks it for us.
Jbird


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## Jbird (May 21, 2002)

*Wow!*

318 would be the lowest ever. Gas prices I'm sure is a factor as well.
Jbird


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## field14 (May 21, 2002)

Jay, 
In order for the "more people on fewer ranges" to work adn get it done right, three things are going to have to happen:

First and foremost: a STRICTLY ENFORCED TIME LIMIT of 5 hours (maybe 5 1/2) MUST be put into effect, no exceptions.

Secondly, you'd have to start the gun at 8AM each day....which gives the "morning people" until 1:30 to have their cards in. That means....that the "afternoon" people are stuck in the hottest part of the day and will finish up...IF they start them at 2PM....around 7PM or 7:30PM.

Third...and this one is a killer monster: We would have to ALTERNATE the shooters...that is, if you shot morning on one day...then the next, you shoot AFTERNOON. This is complicated by:

Not shooting with your peers...a "stickler" for loads of people that are of the "old" mindset that shooting next to your competition makes a HUGE difference (bull hocky, IMHO). It would be next to impossible to match up with your peers and still keep the alternation of morning to afternoon to morning, etc.....tough stumbling block to break "traditionalist's" point of view concerning the face to face scenario...even when someone 4 or 5 targets away from you on their shooting assignments....can whip your butt and you don't see 'em all day long!
The "short turn" when you transition from afternoon...and then you are back on the range in 13 hours or so.....People are NOT going to like that one iota!

So, as you can see...no matter what...if something sounds good on the keyboard...when you sit down and go with the pros and cons and the changes needed....things get side-swiped pretty quickly.

Woodrow Wilson once said: "If you want to make an enemy, simply CHANGE something." He was sure right on that account!

Also, it isn't just GAS prices that may have people balking...everything else has gone up along with the price of fuel...motel rates are up, food prices are up, heck even the price of toilet paper is sky-rocketing! Then turn around and realize that a fair majority of the field shooters in the game are "seniors"....which means "retired"....and look at the stock market and how it has crashed since October....WE (us retired seniors) simply don't have the money to do this week-long escapade...since our retirement nest-eggs are taking a huge beating!

field14


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## Dadpays (Oct 11, 2006)

*In Brownsville! Really?*

Dang, at least if they had it in Brownsville, I could go - and sleep in my own bed at night! I move that we hold Nationals at Golden Eagle Archery range in 2010!!!!!!!!! All in favor say "aye"..........


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## WV Has Been (Aug 9, 2002)

field14 said:


> Jay,
> In order for the "more people on fewer ranges" to work adn get it done right, three things are going to have to happen:
> 
> First and foremost: a STRICTLY ENFORCED TIME LIMIT of 5 hours (maybe 5 1/2) MUST be put into effect, no exceptions.
> ...


I don't see the issue with peers. If the class was to big in the past they had to shoot multiple ranges anyway. It may be more fair to have all of one class on the same range at a different time of the day compared to two different ranges.

I personally would rather tackle the heat compared to the damp foggy mornings at Darrington.


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## jarlicker (Jul 29, 2002)

I checked there weather forcast last night for Yankton. Temps in the high 80's all week. Chance of T-storms everyday. Thats better than here in NC all week. The shooters have lucked out.


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## Brown Hornet (Aug 8, 2002)

Rattleman said:


> Frankly it takes from 5 to 6 hours. SOOOOOOO stop complaining. The people that complain are at home anyway so why does it even matter. Oh and by the way never much to do after a shoot anyway so why rush? And a question for F14.... instead of whinning why not just go out and shoot. Next topic this horse is dead.




So you mean we still made it around the course in good time the other day with our 4.5 hour round in 98 degree temps with 45% humidity.


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## pragmatic_lee (Jan 19, 2008)

A little story that is somewhat on topic in regards to "time".

When I first started shooting indoor league it was at a location that took me 65 minutes to get to. The range is very nice and has 20 lanes. The normal group size was around 12-15 so that meant that everyone could shoot at once. Now it doesn't take very long to shoot 3 arrows, go pull them, and repeat 10 times. 

IN FACT it took longer for me to drive to the range than it did to actually shoot. I mentioned this to the owner and he decided to start assigning lanes and then split the group. Odd number lanes shoot first, then even number. For me, this made the whole experience much more enjoyable. 

I'll add to the comment in the previous post - no there's not much to do after the shoot "in the daylight" :wink: so what's the rush????


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## rock monkey (Dec 28, 2002)

time is what it is, just like the weather. 6hrs to shoot my round, no biggie. im there to shoot, everything else is extra. ive got my place to sleep, preferably a campground and a couple of friends to hang out with and jaw-jack about the round and the course. nobody ever seemed to be in a hurry.

doesnt matter what day it starts or what format is used, people are gonna use at a minimum of 4days off. 

gas is gonna hurt everyone, it's just like the weather....it is what it is.

used to be in the day, there were family activities planned while the shooters were on the course. the year they had the nats in clemson, they had a tour bus set up to hit the 3 adjoining states during the day. of course, back then, it was a family activity.

you have the rubber deer stabbers that will ONLY go if they have the rubber deer. they'll complain about the course being too hard/easy, too long/short, the variety of targets, the the lanes and layout. they'll compare it to ASA or IBO, and still complain about those too.

there is no quick fix, there is no easy fix. if you want to complain to someone complain to a mirror first. the orgs and formats are what you wanted. you petitioned and pushed and got what you wanted. more classes and sometimes class rules as clear as mud. me personally, i could care less what the course layout is, it's elevation and orientation.....i'll shoot it. the more challenging, the more i enjoy it. my score may not reflect it, but it was about the challenge. i wish we had more courses like they had the cartel classic at in the states.

do we have enuff ranges to practice and play at? no....whose fault?......guy in the mirror. people allowed the clubs to choose and promote a venue for the quick buck and fell for the 'quick and easy' sales pitch. where are we now?

it takes almost 2 days to setup a 3d course. find, mark and clear the lanes, check for safety issues, setup the targets. its over?, ok....4 more hours to take down the targets and clean up the club.

a field course, outside of the normal care of mowing the practice range and shooting lanes....about a half hour to an hour to hang targets. plus, while waking the course, you can check to make sure the lanes are properly groomed. once the shoot is over, the targets can stay and be used for practice. a couple hours to clean up the grounds and done. wow, is that a novel idea or what?

i have little room to complain, i just dont have the money to get out there and help. time isnt the problem, its the money. i lost my job and everything, and i mean EVERYTHING has been cut back on. what i dont like seeing and i will stand up and complain about is people that do have the time and money that use it to complain more than they help.

there are people that will put more effort and time into not doing a job instead of doing it and getting it done. it appears that mentality has crept into archery too. dont like what you see, take a stand against the status quo. our sport is just a macrocosm of society today.....it's become 'whats in it for me?'


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## field14 (May 21, 2002)

Rock Monkey,
THAT is one of the best posts I've read when it comes to "the guy in the mirror" type mentality!

You hit the nail on the head...and your concluding statement, IMHO is dead on the money too!

Sorry to hear about the job situation...but it sure is becoming more common as the Leadership SELLS OUT to FOREIGN interests, illegals, etc....and the working LEGAL CITIZEN is the one out in the cold while the others just sit back and get it for free.

Sure can see why the American Dollar is worthless...we sold it all out due to GREED..."they" own more of our businesses, property, banks, etc than the US Citizens do! Why would they want the dollare to succeed when they can, as was put forth at the end of WWII...defeat us economically, but not militarily.

SO we'll sell 'em the main railroad that transports our weapons, supplies, etc, makes sense to put the fox in charge of the hen house?

field14


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## Bob_Looney (Nov 17, 2003)

Split shift the Nats? 

I like your signiture Rock.


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## centerx (Jun 13, 2002)

rock monkey said:


> time is what it is, just like the weather. 6hrs to shoot my round, no biggie. im there to shoot, everything else is extra. ive got my place to sleep, preferably a campground and a couple of friends to hang out with and jaw-jack about the round and the course. nobody ever seemed to be in a hurry.
> 
> doesnt matter what day it starts or what format is used, people are gonna use at a minimum of 4days off.
> 
> ...




Yep I always thought one man could make a difference but 20 years of trying and being VERY active has proved me wrong. 

I have come to the conclusion that if you want the better mouse trap you need to build it yourself. However that takes money and time. Ironically also in my experience people with a lot of that tend to be making the game what they want to see ……….. Jump forward to Outdoor Nationals and those in attendance in vast numbers are people with time and money

You get what you get when you’re a have not . I guess that's why many have not's have ever attended an outdoor national or in fact a field shoot anyplace. Nobody worries about the big picture but frequently what they want and what keeps them in control 

As far as HAVING to take 4 days off regardless that is not nessisraily the case. If the shoot was a Fri-Sun formatt for exanple I can work at least a 1/2 a day if not maybe a tad longer on Thursday. Drive straight to the aiport and catch an afternoon flight. It's also possible to catch a late Sunday flight as a normally try and do anyhow. Even if that flight get's in late I can still sleep in a little and get at least 3/4 of a day in on Monday . It's possible of me to to have to burn 2 days ( 16 hours) of vacation and maybe a little less. There is a HUGE diffrence on how I can arrange my time when a weekenend counts for 2 out of 3 days of shooting compared to how it works in the middle of the week when it counts for a minimum of 4 BUSINEES days and not 2. Over the weekend I just took out 1/2 of the days that I may have a conflict with work

Now if you arrange the shoot a lillte differently I may be able to cut that time even shorter yet. If the NFAA makes an animal round avaliable EVERYDAY in the late afternoon/evening of a Friday -Sun Shoot I just opened up a lot more options. I can fly out early Friday and shoot my 14 arrow Animal round Friday evening then Sat/Sun and out SUN evening….. I just saved a day and the NFAA for all purposes did NOTHING extra 

If I am Driving I can Drive Friday…. Shoot in the morning Sat, and then the Animal Sat afternoon. Shoot again Sunday and be on the road. Considering what time the round normally get's done as long as I am not more then 9 hours away I can be to work Monday morning

The NFAA has a LOT of opportunities to work SMARTER and not HARDER ….. But nobody want't to here it . The good 'ole boys will make it what they want and you'll take it


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## rock monkey (Dec 28, 2002)

dont get me wrong, there are guys who can and do make a difference all by themselves.

i dont want to make examples out of them, but they should get more credit than they do.

wv has been.....sure he was the president of the club and had some people there to help, but without him in charge and leading from the front, what would his club have become? he does a ton for the sport and he's just one guy. a frosty cold one for ya has been.

love him or hate him, OneBowTie has done quite a bit for the field group. he stepped up to take the reigns as the state director in NC. he got involved and tried to get changes made. unfortunately, the good ol' boy club trumped him. im sure he wont give up, just regroup and re-attack. from holding the distance shoots to promoting an otherwise forgotten format, he made great strides and will continue to.

imho, and thats really not worth much, the nfaa is it's own worst enemy. they wont face up to the fact that they have not only an image problem created by the good ol' boy club, but reputation and promotion problems.

image?, sure....you come out publicly and state you'll accept and enforce something that a majority of your membership wants, then you try to quietly reneg on it in a not so legal secret meeting..

reputation? yup....who's gonna want to do business with ya if you cant maintain the order within your own management. changing the rules on a whim or not being consistant in application and enforcement starts to eat away at the confidence of the membership.

there's a time for business and a time for pleasure. maybe some of you need to learn how to keep the two from mixing. closed door politics does nothing good for the membership.

promotion problems? oh hell yeah. is there anything clear about the format for this year's nats? i dont know how much it takes to take a quarter page ad in a magazine just to list a schedule. that would be a start. get the word out. what happened to the TNUSA thing? how come the nfaa didnt have commercials running during 'call of the wild'?

it's almost comical. the field format has almost died, and now people that have NEVER heard of it are trying in and slappin their foreheads sayin 'wow! where has this game been?' it's nice to see more trying it. what we need now instead of resurrections
are more evangelists. get out and show the 'new' game.

it wouldnt be that difficult to get an idea from members what shops they go to. most shops have net access either in store or at the owner's residence. email the schedules for the year or quarter. email the same scheds to the box stores so they can be posted in the archery departments. take out an ad in the asa or ibo forums. money is money.....ad money isnt special, it all looks the same on the books. send info to the box stores about what programs the nfaa has for the avg guy.

if the leadership of the nfaa was more concerned with getting the word out to the masses than they were about hurting a buddy's feelings, the org would be a whole lot better.


the nfaa needs to look inside itself and fix those problems first before they can fix the rest.


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## 60Xbulldog60X (Mar 12, 2005)

X Hunter said:


> QUOTE=field14;7264821]In the Men's Pros...don't leave out JIMMY BUTTS...he was so close last year; one never knows....
> 
> Always a strong contender!!!
> 
> ...



:wink:[/QUOTE]
Ranges are flat and virtually cut free but it is in Sout Dakota and everyone knows that the wind always blows in South Dakota. The wind was worse today than yesterday and supposed to be even worst tomorrow. No perfect scores yet but there could be some shot. Just remember flat ground does not always = perfect scores. 

I will say that things are going wrather well and the ranges are beautiful and there is not a shortage of water on the ranges. Things are running very smooth. The NFAA has done a great job so far.

I personally want to thank the NFAA for holding such a wonderful and prestegeous outdoor event. It is truelly a wonderful time to be had at this event.

Take care,

Kendall


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## jarlicker (Jul 29, 2002)

Kendall great to see you made it out to Yankton. Now shoot a few good scores. Make sure you take care of treaton. He needs lots of nap time to shoot well. Tell phantom its o/k if he shoots big scores.

Keep laughing. Wish I could have joined you guys. Have fun!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## 60Xbulldog60X (Mar 12, 2005)

jarlicker said:


> Kendall great to see you made it out to Yankton. Now shoot a few good scores. Make sure you take care of treaton. He needs lots of nap time to shoot well. Tell phantom its o/k if he shoots big scores.
> 
> Keep laughing. Wish I could have joined you guys. Have fun!!!!!!!!!!!!


What's up Jarlicker?
The home boys didn't do too well yesterday. None of us got any sleep at all Sunday night and I didn't have any patience for the wind or the black flies yesterday. We got us some rest last night and we all faired better today. These courses are flat but you really have to have a lot of patience with the wind. I should have shot better today. I missed 3 that I should never miss but everyone that I missed was a bad shot. We are all having tons of fun. Wish you could have made it.

Take care,

Kendall


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## Hammer X (May 20, 2008)

Take it to those boys my brother. Show em how it's done! good round today but I know you got more in you. Good Luck.


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## centerx (Jun 13, 2002)

rock monkey said:


> dont get me wrong, there are guys who can and do make a difference all by themselves.
> 
> i dont want to make examples out of them, but they should get more credit than they do.
> 
> ...


No doubt here and there a few can make a little difference. However as it pertains to making Field archery a premier national event ………….. Well that’s going to take a little more work and it’s not going to be a one person show 

OBT proves my point. He has the time AND money to give it a go and seems to represent the general opinions of most people…….. Look how they keep squashing that annoyance. Sure he chugs away and I’m sure the locals appreciate it 

Defiantly starting to see some momentum and one can hope people see the light.

Now if somebody like with the proper resources wanted to make a REAL difference they would start Field archery from the ground up something like 


1)	Tweak the game to come more in line with today’s gear 
2)	Develop a ranking system for courses. Like golf courses
3)	Get rid of the current equipment class system and go to a skills base system
4)	Put “nationals” during a 60 day period at several different spots in the US. Shoot one location or shoot them all. Best scores after the 60 days count for the Nationals. This way you can protect against weather as you can have another go at it if it sucked at your location. Trophy class option only. Money class / Pro’s report to one central location
5)	Use technology for promotion 

Maybe not all good ideas but is what is going to be required going forward if we want to get a start on turning this thing around.Soembody or some group needs to take a damn the torpedoes attitude and come up with something that works. No tip toeing around Orgs. No good ‘ole boy network. Outdoor spots network promoting all dot’s outdoor shoots. Leave the Indoor to the NFAA, Leave 3-D to the other orgs. When all the outdoor spot shooters flock to the new Org the NFAA and NAA will listen and adapt 

This is something I could get onboard with and promote in my area:tongue:


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## X Hunter (Jan 11, 2007)

60Xbulldog60X said:


> :wink:


Ranges are flat and virtually cut free but it is in Sout Dakota and everyone knows that the wind always blows in South Dakota. The wind was worse today than yesterday and supposed to be even worst tomorrow. No perfect scores yet but there could be some shot. Just remember flat ground does not always = perfect scores. 

I will say that things are going wrather well and the ranges are beautiful and there is not a shortage of water on the ranges. Things are running very smooth. The NFAA has done a great job so far.

I personally want to thank the NFAA for holding such a wonderful and prestegeous outdoor event. It is truelly a wonderful time to be had at this event.

Take care,

Kendall[/QUOTE]


Good round today!! Just keep doing what you know how to do!!!!!! 

Shoot about a dozen or 2 20's for me!!!!


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## WV Has Been (Aug 9, 2002)

wv has been said:


> and no buzz.
> 
> Can hinky dink repeat??
> 
> ...


pro male freestyle
*jesse broadwater 557 559 1116*
dietmar trillus 557 558 1115
duane price 557 556 1113
tim gillingham 557 556 1113
josh schaff 556 557 1113
*dave cousins 556 555 1111*
shane wills 555 556 1111
eric lydeen 556 555 1111
rodger willett jr 553 558 1111
rod menzer 553 557 1110
michael braden 554 556 1110
russell payne 555 552 1107
michael anderson 553 552 1105
reo wilde 552 552 1104
*jimmy butts 551 553 1104*
kendall woody 549 555 1104
cabe johnson 555 549 1104
mike leiter 551 552 1103
jackie white 552 547 1099
keith trail 542 555 1097




adult male freestyle
*randy hinkelman 554 555 1109*
randy ballard 551 551 1102
tim sargent 552 549 1101
michael pestilli 550 549 1099
jon eide 545 548 1093
trey crawford 546 547 1093
jeff rollings 545 546 1091


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## The Swami (Jan 16, 2008)

Hink needs to make a big move tomorrow. 577 or better should work. I am hoping for a 580. Then it is par golf the rest of the way.


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## field14 (May 21, 2002)

Cuz Dave, the Birdman of Cartel, has his plate full in trying to pick up FIVE points in the next three rounds!

There is a high potential for Dietmar to finally be the first Canuck to win the USA NFAA Outdoor Nationals!

field14:wink::tongue:


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## SuperX (May 21, 2002)

WV Has Been said:


> pro male freestyle
> *jesse broadwater 557 559 1116*
> dietmar trillus 557 558 1115
> duane price 557 556 1113
> ...



Jimmy Butts' primary bow broke on the practice day and he shot the first 2 days with his backup. He has his primary back on track today (animal round day) so we'll see if he can turn things around.

Jesse is shooting incredibly as usual and may be unassailable with a good run of dots today.

Jon Eide brought out a new line of stabilizers this weekend and I got the chance to shoot them - very nice! They are well made and have the right level of stiffness to them to help steady without being too "wandy". I predict they will be well recieved!

On the women's side the top 2 are no surprise with Jamie and Erica only 3 points apart.


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## Brown Hornet (Aug 8, 2002)

SuperX said:


> Jimmy Butts' primary bow broke on the practice day and he shot the first 2 days with his backup. He has his primary back on track today (animal round day) so we'll see if he can turn things around.
> 
> Jesse is shooting incredibly as usual and may be unassailable with a good run of dots today.
> 
> ...


I am dying over here.....I have been waiting on those things since last year....Hurry up and get back Jon.:wink:


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## SuperX (May 21, 2002)

Brown Hornet said:


> I am dying over here.....I have been waiting on those things since last year....Hurry up and get back Jon.:wink:


You won't be dissappointed! :darkbeer:


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## Hutnicks (Feb 9, 2006)

SuperX said:


> You won't be dissappointed! :darkbeer:


Hey, it's an offense to tease the Hornet:wink:

Didn't you read the signs?:


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## Brown Hornet (Aug 8, 2002)

SuperX said:


> You won't be dissappointed! :darkbeer:


:thumb: I can't wait:wink:



Hutnicks said:


> Hey, it's an offense to tease the Hornet:wink:
> 
> Didn't you read the signs?:


She get's a pass on this one....that is no where near the tease that I have been getting for the past 6+ months.....:embara:


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## tabarch (Sep 20, 2006)

60Xbulldog60X said:


> :wink:


Ranges are flat and virtually cut free but it is in Sout Dakota and everyone knows that the wind always blows in South Dakota. The wind was worse today than yesterday and supposed to be even worst tomorrow. No perfect scores yet but there could be some shot. Just remember flat ground does not always = perfect scores. 

I will say that things are going wrather well and the ranges are beautiful and there is not a shortage of water on the ranges. Things are running very smooth. The NFAA has done a great job so far.

I personally want to thank the NFAA for holding such a wonderful and prestegeous outdoor event. It is truelly a wonderful time to be had at this event.

Take care,

Kendall[/QUOTE]

Good shooting Kendal, We are hoping that you and Tim bring back the big drinking bowls.
Terry


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