# Hoyt Alero problems



## stick monkey (Mar 9, 2015)

*Alero dovetail*

I saw this picture in a Alero vs gmx thread ... this pic shows the dovetail all the way to one side.... I don't recall whether it was a right or left hand...but seems to be the same as you described. Kind of disheartening because I was just about to order a Alero as well...


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Makes a guy wish Earl was still using his straightening tool on each riser before it went out the door.


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## teebat (Oct 28, 2013)

MartinOttosson said:


> I just bought a new Alero riser to use for olympic recurve. I noticed immediately while setting it up that the riser was pretty twisted or somehow atleast not straight. The cnc milling looks flawless and there are no visible mistakes made in the machining. But the string ends up about 4-5mm out of the center plane when the dovetail adjustment is set neutral. For me that is immediately noticeable just by holding and drawing the bow. It just feels like the string is too far out from the sight window. To get it centered I need to max the lower alignment adjuster inwards towards the sight window (to the right) and I hardly can get the string centered while still keeping it aligned with the bolts. I tested with several pair of limbs that are verified straight and also turned all limbs upside down. The alignment problem stays the same all the time. If if was the limbs the fault would move. I can´t totally verify what the problem actually is by measuring with my simple laser tool, but for sure the riser is quite far from perfectly straight.
> 
> I went the warranty route and asked the shop to check another Alero to see if it was just bud luch with that specific riser. So they opened another box and took a new riser out. It turned out to have the exact same problem. So it seems to be a bigger problem than just a single bad item. Anyone else noticed this? Any specific batch that are bad? Even if the Alero is the budget option from Hoyt, it is still a higher medium level riser in correlation to the total market. The two risers that we checked are so bad that I would consider it basically not ok even for a 100 dollar beginner riser.
> 
> To fast milling so the alu block gets twisted by high applied forces? Anyone own an Alero so they can take a look if they have the same problem?


Well, you're not alone we've had to return a few also. I don't know what the deal is. It seems they've been having issues for a while.

Sent from my VS835 using Tapatalk


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## Seattlepop (Dec 8, 2003)

Interesting. That photo above is mine and to line the limbs up it does require an off-center dove tail slot on the lower limb. However, using my spiffy new tuning forks, the riser is otherwise perfectly straight. In fact it is straighter than my AXT which is a twisted noodle and required shims in both limb pockets.


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## kshet26 (Dec 20, 2010)

It's possible the limb bolts are actually off. If the Tuning Forks show coplanar near the pockets and various limb combos show the same result.

Basically the dove tail adjustments and the limb bolts don't line up.


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## MartinOttosson (May 31, 2011)

kshet26 said:


> It's possible the limb bolts are actually off. If the Tuning Forks show coplanar near the pockets and various limb combos show the same result.
> 
> Basically the dove tail adjustments and the limb bolts don't line up.


It might be, yes. I have tried to isolate the problem, but I can´t find the reason for it so I don´t know. 
The strange part is that both risers that I tried had the exact same issue. And the photo above also looks identical in terms of dovetail adjustment. A poor quality control or a over stressed milling process should result in variations between individual items. This almost seems like a program error, or a single machine fault. The final proof that Formula is better than ILF then I guess. If it was a formula system, the resulting error would have been half as noticable, if it has something to to with the limb bolt.


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## kshet26 (Dec 20, 2010)

I think this would be an issue regardless of ilf vs formula.

But yes, as you mentioned, it might not be a random issue. It is seeming like one of the one of the contact points is slightly laterally offset-- not twised or warped. Since it seems to be consistent to that location, I'd guess it's either an issue with machining or a hole is tapped offset. If it was an issue with the finish or a component (limb bolts, dovetail blocks) I'd expect it to present on the top or the bottom since I assume those aren't location specific and that the Hoyt assemblers are just pulling parts out of a bin at random. Possible problem areas:









It would only takes a fraction of a mm to cause issues.


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## stick monkey (Mar 9, 2015)

I wonder if Hoyt is aware...has anyone contacted them? Has the problem been fixed? I wonder if it was just a specific run ....or is it going to be an ongoing issue that has no remedy...


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## archerynooblol (Nov 6, 2010)

kshet26 said:


> But yes, as you mentioned, it might not be a random issue. It is seeming like one of the one of the contact points is slightly laterally offset-- not twisted or warped. Since it seems to be consistent to that location, I'd guess it's either an issue with machining or a hole is tapped offset.


Once is chance, twice is coincidence, three times+ starts to look systematic.

If the rate of incidence is as high as people say, then this starts to suggest a systematic issue, which could be manufacturing *OR* could be design.

On that note, people are often quick to jump and blame manufacturing: "over stressed", "warping", "machine error", "drill/tap offsets" etc. Not to say that these things don't happen, but it's easy to be taken in by the first hypothesis and get single tracked. Not to mention that Hoyt makes and has made plenty of other risers without these issues (or at least this supposed incidence rate). Not the mention the chain of circumstances for this to happen:


Programmed the machine wrong
Machine not calibrated
QA did not catch the issue in inspection
 etc etc...
Because of this, I would venture to say that the existing body of evidence would not lead me to weigh manufacturing issues as highest on the probability list.

With that in mind, just looking at the image here, I can see a design choice I wouldn't personally make that could be a plausible explanation for this issue. Specifically: the choice of using a button head screw and a counter bore at the pivot plate. 

A *button head/counterbore* is *not a locational feature*. The purpose of a counterbore is to allow the screw to fit. It is by *definition a clearance hole*. This means slop.
A better choice in this application would be a *flat head/countersink* which is a better locational feature (still not the best choice, but lowest hanging fruit here, it'd probably work in 99% of cases)

Some images to illustrate this issue. Observe what other manufacturers have done for this application








Here's how I would test this theory. 

Remove the lateral set screws completely
Snug down the button head screw. Then loosen enough where you can move the plate freely.
Translate the plate. *TRANSLATE*. *NOT ROTATE*. If you can translate the plate, that means slop, which could be the root cause









*If* this theory is correct, it's a relatively simple fix due to a design decision they made, which is to make the ILF plate modular/removable. You can easily swap in a replacement part.
Hell, I wonder if you can just do it yourself with the currently available parts:


https://www.ebay.com/itm/2X-Archery...s-for-ILF-Recurve-Bows-Riser-17-/253212209398
http://www.lancasterarchery.com/tradtech-brass-ilf-riser-hardware.html
Whatever part this corresponds to, can't find it right now: http://images.lancasterarchery.com/...ec1fbd986744c31150a1b2502/5/5/5580021_2_5.jpg

TL;DR: Don't miss the forest for the trees.

Hope that helps.

AN


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## kshet26 (Dec 20, 2010)

Nice breakdown! I mentioned it looked to be a machining/design error because it ONLY appears to be affecting the bottom limb. If this was a component issue, I'd expect it to present in either, but who knows. But I agree that it's probably something related to that dovetail mechanism and I'm interested in the result if someone does this test.


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## archerynooblol (Nov 6, 2010)

kshet26 said:


> because it ONLY appears to be affecting the bottom limb


You probably have more opinions on this that I do: When you're aligning a bow, do you fix the top or the bottom and only adjust one, or do you change them in concert? (Actual question for you, not rhetorical).

I try to keep as much to the facts as possible; meaning what I can take with 100% certainty that isn't confounded or biased with other factors. In this case, the core presented issue is that a lot of adjustment is needed to get limbs straight on these risers. That the OP (and SeattlePop) only moved the bottom adjustment to get them in line is definitely a interesting observation to note, but not something I can personally determine or necessarily trust without having the riser in front of me and seeing the issue for myself. I don't know how the OP normally aligns his bows, or maybe it's the first thing he tried and worked ... Don't know, so I left that part out.

But again, there are plenty of other probable causes. One theory I haven't mentioned is that the hole might be off centered in design. As in, in the actual CAD model, the center line connecting the holes doesn't line up. But of everything discussed here, I would rate this as the very least probable cause, and I'd be extremely surprised if this was the issue for all the reasons listed above. 

The first thing to do when debugging is to list out everything it can be no matter how (im)probable, then work your way to ruling out everything until you've narrowed down the root cause.

To play devil's advocate against my own theory - possible hangup: maybe there's an alignment feature on the other side of the ILF plate that we can't see because they're not pictured. But I need to go with the information I have. As with all theories, there's a point where you need to speculate/hypothesize otherwise it wouldn't be a theory it'd be true (also the top side is counterbored so that doesn't leave too much room for an locating feature).

As I've said in other threads for other debugging, I would love to have the riser in front of me so I can make the assessment in person, but until then this is just speculation/theories and I try to be transparent about that as best as I can.


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## archerynooblol (Nov 6, 2010)

archerynooblol said:


> To play devil's advocate against my own theory...


Another thing is that the design of the block is the same on the Excel/Horizon.

Have these risers had the same issue? Or maybe it's just being noticed now? Could be a knock for or against.


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## kshet26 (Dec 20, 2010)

Ooooo I have a horizon! I knew it looked familiar, just wasn't sure it was the same. I haven't had any issues as described on mine, but I'll do your test.

As for the adjustment question: with tape/gauges I'd pick one at random and do the adjustment dance to get things looking right. With TFs I don't have to worry about that anymore. I see your point, though.

Another thing I thought of is a deforming of the block due to over torquing the adjustment screws, I've heard those aluminum blocks can bend if you over-tighten them. But having it that way from the factory would be a little strange...

Maybe also try swapping the blocks (top to bottom and vice versa). That would be interesting.

archerynooblol I think it's safe to say we both like debugging/problem-solving


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## archerynooblol (Nov 6, 2010)

kshet26 said:


> Ooooo I have a horizon! I knew it looked familiar, just wasn't sure it was the same. I haven't had any issues as described on mine, but I'll do your test.


If you end up taking it out, post a picture of the under side. Curious to see if there's an alignment feature underneath. Current guess is no.



kshet26 said:


> Maybe also try swapping the blocks (top to bottom and vice versa). That would be interesting.
> ... think it's safe to say we both like debugging/problem-solving


:wink: man after my own heart


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## MartinOttosson (May 31, 2011)

Great discussion. I unfortunately no longer have the riser, so I can´t check. I sent it in for warranty, and the shop also found it faulty so Hoyt will most likely get to know it. If it was a irregularity in the position of the ILF-alignment block, I think I would have seen it. I inspected the riser very carefully and normally I find any problems quite fast, unless it is a milling block twist that is very hard to see. But I didn´t disassemble anything since I wanted to be sure that I didn´t mess anything up before sending the riser back for the warranty claim. 

It is for sure not an intentional misalignment from Hoyt. No riser ever had that, and if they ever would make such a change, that would be called "revolutionary"... 

I have experienced the same problem in 3 risers during my years in archery. I have also seen mistakes in drilling, uncentered milling, or bolt misalignment. But sometimes the riser just don´t feel straight and it seems impossible to state exactly why. So far all of the last mentioned kind prior to this case all have ended up beeing caused by the riser twisting by the forces related to the milling process. In the quest of getting the price down the speed of the milling is made as fast as possible, and in some cases too fast. It´s a well known challenge in CNC machining of aluminum and it´s very common in the lowest price range CNC risers. But I judge a $150 Samick Vision different from a $450 Hoyt riser. According to my experience it felt like a twisted alu block.


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## kshet26 (Dec 20, 2010)

Oh sure, take the easy way out! :wink:

I hope your replacement is flawless.


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## MartinOttosson (May 31, 2011)

kshet26 said:


> Oh sure, take the easy way out! :wink:
> 
> I hope your replacement is flawless.


It was not. The shop checked all Alero risers they had (only 3) and all had in stock the same problem. So I will get a refund instead of a replacement riser. I really liked the feel of the Alero however, so I think I will wait for the next shipment and check if they are better instead of getting any other riser at this point.


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## stick monkey (Mar 9, 2015)

Please post whether the replacement is the same as the others or you can see some sort of difference. My guess is that half if not more of the people that buy in this price range buy it because it says Hoyt and that's what Brady shoots...half or more of those people will slide in limbs put on a string and shoot...never even properly setting it up . Some of the risers with problems will just go unnoticed...


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## stick monkey (Mar 9, 2015)

Wish we could hear more...if you have an Alero chime in please


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## stick monkey (Mar 9, 2015)

Share your experience with the hoyt Alero


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## Nick728 (Oct 19, 2014)

A Hoyt mechanic I know said that he never got a Hoyt in, compound or riser, that didn't need adjustments. Maybe that's true, maybe it's not. Two shooters at the range I shoot at have Alero risers that shoot very well, no problems no issues that i know of. I ordered one and canceled for one reason or another. Which bring me to my point, if you think there's a problem it will stay in your head making that riser not right for you. The fact that I know 2 Alero owners that shoot it better that I can shoot my GMX tells me not to believe there's a problem until I KNOW first hand there's a problem. 
Nick


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## Gregjlongbow (Jun 15, 2016)

limbwalker said:


> Makes a guy wish Earl was still using his straightening tool on each riser before it went out the door.


Strsitening tool! Interested! 


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## stick monkey (Mar 9, 2015)

Ttt. More Alero owners share your experience.


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## Nick728 (Oct 19, 2014)

My son contacted Hoyt over a limb problem, it was a few months over warranty and a refund wasn't expected. What was expected was a polite, professional conversation as to why it happened and what could have caused it. Instead he got a rude, obnoxious "not our problem"...Fine, I will never buy anything Hoyt again. I canceled an Alero order some time ago because I was considering buying an Epik but now nothing Hoyt makes will even be on my short list again.
Nick


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## stick monkey (Mar 9, 2015)

I have seen a set of 840 one limb go weak and they were still under warranty and yet Hoyt would not honor their warranty saying they were within their tolerances...we had to flip the top and bottom limb and then take out six turns of one tiller bolt to get the tiller even... basically losing any tuning adjustment and or poundage adjustment and this was within their specs.... I really wanted an Alero but my experience with Hoyt hasn't been great either. I want to know if this dovetail or straightness issue has been fixed with the Alero


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## f_thomas (Oct 12, 2006)

Nick728 said:


> My son contacted Hoyt over a limb problem, it was a few months over warranty and a refund wasn't expected. What was expected was a polite, professional conversation as to why it happened and what could have caused it. Instead he got a rude, obnoxious "not our problem"...Fine, I will never buy anything Hoyt again. I canceled an Alero order some time ago because I was considering buying an Epik but now nothing Hoyt makes will even be on my short list again.
> Nick


That is sad to hear, but based on a recent experience with Hoyt via contact form and over the phone I can tell you that some people appear to need some remedial training! I ended up having a very nice discussion with someone in upper management and brought to his attention the attitude of the Customer Service Representatives. Rude, kurt and zero help. He was not pleased. Hope someone at Hoyt that can make a difference reads yours and the next post. There seems to be some commonality. Regardless of Hoyt's size and past reputation it will not take long for customer's perspectives begin to deteriorate dramatically. It is too small a sport that word will not get around.


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## stick monkey (Mar 9, 2015)

Ttt


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## kentsabrina (Aug 23, 2017)

I have 2 Aleros, bought late 2018 n early 2019, zero alignment issues

But both have sticker logos fallen off


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## eagle man (Jun 7, 2011)

Still would like to hear form other Alero owners about any issues they have encountered.


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## MartinOttosson (May 31, 2011)

I can report back atleast. I never ordered any replacement Alero, since a used Formula Faktor turned up in the local used market. I bought that instead. No issues what so ever with that, but that was not expected either since it is made in the Hoyt factory in the USA. I must say that I do prefer the shot feel of the Alero however. And as stated above, for sure I could have shot with the Alero and it wouldn´t have held me back. But nevertheless it was not within what I demand in terms of quality when I buy a 450 Euro riser.


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## Nick728 (Oct 19, 2014)

A few months ago I picked up an Alero. I really thought it was bent but it proved to be the grub screws had the pockets way out of alignment. The grub screws have a tendency to loosen up and in the process I lost one of them. It really is a nice shooting riser with a good feel and grip. I just have to remember it has problems that require constant attention. Had it not been for it being a new riser for a great bargain very likely I wouldn't have bought it. This is the second Hoyt I've owned that has a problem with loosening screws. I suppose Loctite might help but I'm not sure about using in on a riser. A buddy has the same problem with his Alero and opted to doubling up the grub screws.  
Nick


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## Seattlepop (Dec 8, 2003)

Nick728 said:


> A few months ago I picked up an Alero. I really thought it was bent but it proved to be the grub screws had the pockets way out of alignment. The grub screws have a tendency to loosen up and in the process I lost one of them. It really is a nice shooting riser with a good feel and grip. I just have to remember it has problems that require constant attention. Had it not been for it being a new riser for a great bargain very likely I wouldn't have bought it. This is the second Hoyt I've owned that has a problem with loosening screws. I suppose Loctite might help but I'm not sure about using in on a riser. A buddy has the same problem with his Alero and opted to doubling up the grub screws.
> Nick


When I got mine I immediately replaced the 1/2" alignment screws with two 1/4" screws so as to have a lock nut. They are readily available at Ace or Home Depot, etc. No problems at all with this arrangement and highly recommend it to Alero owners.


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## bowman_79_19 (Mar 15, 2009)

It's gotta be a batch. Mine is perfect. No adjustments needed. Shot several limbs as well. 

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## bowman_79_19 (Mar 15, 2009)

I would also take out the long grub screw and put in two 1/4" ones as well. 

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## uwedinho (Jan 27, 2020)

So I just got an alero, before reading this...so slight adjust was needed for upper limb and a bit more was needed for lower. But it did get aligned. My question is, how does this make it a bad riser? I mean the adjustment screws are there for alignment, can't this be seen as the allowance? It's there to serve this purpose of "imperfection". I mean if it is way off and alignment isn't possible anymore, then I would see this is a problem... Just my thought, could be wrong.

If this was given to a pro, maxed out alignment needed, and they shoot it for hours, would they notice that the dovetails are maxed out on one side? Cause if so, then aligning it in the first place makes no sense since aligned limbs feel different. Would they notice risers that do not need limb alignments? Does it make sense if I say as long as performance is consistent, it's all ok?


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## BuzzMA (Jan 11, 2010)

stick monkey said:


> I saw this picture in a Alero vs gmx thread ... this pic shows the dovetail all the way to one side.... I don't recall whether it was a right or left hand...but seems to be the same as you described. Kind of disheartening because I was just about to order a Alero as well...


I'm not sure I see how this photo illustrates a problem. The pivot screw appears to be centered and the fact that the dovetail is offset is normal adjustment, yes? Not saying there isn't a problem just not apparent from this photo.


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## eagle man (Jun 7, 2011)

*That Black Alero rise in this thread*

I now own the black Alero riser pictured and talked about in this thread. I bought it from Seattlepop. I need to mention he told me about this thread and the alignment issue. He went out of his way so I knew exactly what I was getting. He told me he had it set and believed it should be aligned. I put my backup Hoyt Quattros on it and got out the tuning forks and dang the way he had it adjusted it was close enough that I wasn't going to mess with it. Just want to let you know that I'm not a pro and only compete a few times a year. But I have a couple thoughts here. I think sometimes that the shooters that aren't Olympians worry to much about things that aren't perfect. I know there has been an Olympian in the past that medaled with a twisted limb. I like something Limbwalker said " just go shoot" and that is what I do. I do want to show how I'm shooting with that Alero that needed alignment and still isn't just 100% but very close. Hey THANKS Seattlepop for your honesty and the good deal. I have enjoyed shooting this setup indoors this last month. 

Ted


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Just Yes.


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## stick monkey (Mar 9, 2015)

BuzzMA said:


> I'm not sure I see how this photo illustrates a problem. The pivot screw appears to be centered and the fact that the dovetail is offset is normal adjustment, yes? Not saying there isn't a problem just not apparent from this photo.


Might be a normal adjustment for a Hoyt...but it shouldn't be all the way to one side regardless of the manufacturer


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## stick monkey (Mar 9, 2015)

The lateral adjustment is supposed to adjust for crooked limbs...if you had a limb with the slightest deviation you might not be able to get it in alignment because of the crooked riser. That's the issue here... it's supposed to be a precision cnc piece of equipment.


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## Nick728 (Oct 19, 2014)

I thought my Alero was twisted but I just needed pocket adjustments. One problem was the limb bolt adjustment screws would loosen up, I even lost one, and the limbs would shift. Aligning the limbs by way of the limb pockets and a real tightening down solved the problems. For whatever reason the riser came in with pockets off center and it sure did look twisted but it wasn't. My GMX shot like crap until I had a Hoyt tech recheck my limb alignment & correct a form fault. Both the Alero and the GMX are fine for my level of shooting & better shooters than I shoot them better that I. I'm not understanding what other problems some might be experiencing but what I thought was Hoyt problem really was me not doing my due diligence in setting it up correctly. 
Nick


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