# New W&W riser...



## Seattlepop (Dec 8, 2003)

I posted this in elsewhere, but I think it deserves a new thread:

Here it is...first came a version of the Veritune with the Meta DX, now we have that with dampeners in the new ATF-DX. Imitation is a form of flattery?

Nice looking riser for sure.


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## crazytaxi (4 mo ago)

Looks like they have changed the limb pocket block design. I wonder if its related to this complaint some time ago?

ATF-X | Quality Problem & Limb Alignment Failure


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## stick monkey (Mar 9, 2015)

Nice looking new limbs but otherwise nothing to get excited about except the 27”Cxt


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## Flyinhawaiian (Nov 2, 2018)

It’s attractive, but as a Wiawis Nano Max shooter I have been waiting for them to come out with a new carbon riser. It will be interesting to hear the feedback from those of you who get to try this riser out.


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## maxpowerpc2000 (Apr 5, 2010)

I am disappointed. Not worth upgrading from the ATF to be honest.


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## stick monkey (Mar 9, 2015)

If I had my choice I would still pick the axt or the Tft or 27”Cxt then maybe the meta dx… the waffle cutouts just look hideous to me.


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## ryan b. (Sep 1, 2005)

Atfx has the best shot quality feel of any aluminum I’ve tried. Noticeable improvement over the xceed and atf. 
better like waffles though 😝


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## SHPoet (Nov 13, 2009)

I really wonder if the damneners will have any real impact on felt vibration. But hey, one more place to add some color.


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## Hikari (May 15, 2021)

crazytaxi said:


> Looks like they have changed the limb pocket block design. I wonder if its related to this complaint some time ago?
> 
> ATF-X | Quality Problem & Limb Alignment Failure


It seems simply a change to make the same design Hoyt uses to adjust the bow response in the limb pocket.

When I did my research before buying the ATF-X, I could only find one person that had this issue. Jake Kaminski did not find any quality issues with the ATF-X and neither have I. Win & Win, as far as I know, never had a product recall. And the ATF-X is universally well regarded. The pocket design in the ATF-X is very simple and so I am not sure what could go wrong. I don't understand the persistence of this rumor.


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## ksarcher (May 22, 2002)

Having owned 3 of the ATF-X risers, I do not see much to get excited about either. I had the Meta DX with the dampeners and shooting with or whiteout was not noticeable! The limb adjust block problem was never an issue with my risers. 
Hard to imagine the new limbs could be any better than the MXT-10s ..


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## Hikari (May 15, 2021)

SHPoet said:


> I really wonder if the damneners will have any real impact on felt vibration. But hey, one more place to add some color.


For some archers, it seems to have. Sief van den Berg, in his review/impression, feels the dampers in the Hoyt XD. Jake Kaminski seems to notice the effect in the Meta DX riser. But I am sure it is hard to qualify. I have dampers next to the limb pockets on my ATF-X. How the weight and how the dampening effects the reaction is hard to parse. I know if I take the dampers off and just leave the weight, my riser rings with a high frequency when I tap it. With the dampers, it is dead--nothing. There are so many forces and frequencies going through a bow when it is shot, noting the influence of one intervention would be hard to figure out. One thing is sure, archers seem to like dampening.


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## woof156 (Apr 3, 2018)

stick monkey said:


> If I had my choice I would still pick the axt or the Tft or 27”Cxt then maybe the meta dx… the waffle cutouts just look hideous to me.


OK I'll bite, what is a waffle cut out?? I have maple syrup does that help??


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## Hikari (May 15, 2021)

woof156 said:


> OK I'll bite, what is a waffle cut out?? I have maple syrup does that help??


That is a reference to the ATF, ATF-X, and ATF-DX angular grid cut-outs in the riser. And no, maple syrup does not help.


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## G.Lizard (3 mo ago)

Wiawis site says they will make it in a 27" I would venture that Mathews system probably works better than the Hoyt; I'd like to see a data comparison now that we have two aluminum riser with a system. 
I really don't care about the aftershock--a pleasant hangover from shooting D longbows. I have a 25" ATF-X. Only thing I would 'complain' about is that the center shot clearance is not great for larger diameter arrows and stick-n rests, in my opinion. Maybe they will go on a clearance sale and I will pick up a 27"...


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## Metropolis (Oct 10, 2016)

ryan b. said:


> Atfx has the best shot quality feel of any aluminum I’ve tried. Noticeable improvement over the xceed and atf.
> better like waffles though 😝


Does the ATF-X have its weight forward like Hoyt risers?
To me that's a real advantage of Hoyt, 
even if Wiawis has other qualities... (carbon especially).


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## woof156 (Apr 3, 2018)

Hikari said:


> That is a reference to the ATF, ATF-X, and ATF-DX angular grid cut-outs in the riser. And no, maple syrup does not help.


thanks- now that I know what they are I like them even without maple syrup- I have other uses for that stuff.


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## AzureSkydiver (Sep 13, 2021)

There was another thread here about coloring or painting the waffles an accent color.


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## stick monkey (Mar 9, 2015)

Syrup or paint won’t help…they certainly can redesign with more aesthetic cutouts and still maintain the level of flex or stiffness that they are striving for…and add damper or not…the damper is not the unappealing part…it’s the ugly cutouts


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## Hikari (May 15, 2021)

stick monkey said:


> Syrup or paint won’t help…they certainly can redesign with more aesthetic cutouts and still maintain the level of flex or stiffness that they are striving for…and add damper or not…the damper is not the unappealing part…it’s the ugly cutouts


I like the "ugly" cut outs. Good for making fries as well. 

The ATF-DX seems to have taken a different approach from the ATF-X, where the cut outs go straight though the DX riser, where the X riser has some of the cut outs only reaching half way through the riser thickness. The DX is also about 80g heavier for both the 25" and 27" over the X, but I am not sure how much the dampeners are are adding to that weight. The selling point for the ATF-X was that it had added more rigidity to the riser over the original ATF and kept the weight the same. That does not seem to be the selling point of the DX, which is focused on the dampers and the adjustable plate. The cut outs at the bottom of the DX are not the same as the X--better for cutting tofu than fries.

I am curious if Win & Win are thinking about running dampened and undampened riser lines in parallel. The Meta DX seems like a dampened version of the CXT. I guess sales will decide that.

Good thing WA updated their barebow rules to include dampers, especially above the grip...


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## Hikari (May 15, 2021)

Canadian Archery Online lists the 25" ATF-DX at $1,099 CND and Alternative Services is listing it at $740 USD. Alternative is about 30% less than US retailer prices. That looks like quite a jump from ATF-X prices. Like the ATF-X, I assume it will be a while before the 27" version comes out.


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## AzureSkydiver (Sep 13, 2021)

Slightly off topic: As I recall from another thread, the archery tariff for the US doesn't kick in until the item is priced over $800, so it maybe still cheaper to get the ATF-DX from Alternative Services. Does one just pretend that the Pittman-Robertson Act taxes don't apply to importing archery equipment for personal use?


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## Seattlepop (Dec 8, 2003)

I think the other thread Import tariffs on foreign online purchases? indicated that if it's under $800 you can call it whatever you want, no pretending required. BuzzMa has link to the Harmonized schedule that may address specific equipment. 

BTW, did you ever jump at Pelican Skydivers in Ridgely, Md? I went there in the 70's. Only made 12 jumps...too boring.


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## Z3R0 (Nov 6, 2014)

Hikari said:


> Canadian Archery Online lists the 25" ATF-DX at $1,099 CND and Alternative Services is listing it at $740 USD. Alternative is about 30% less than US retailer prices. That looks like quite a jump from ATF-X prices. Like the ATF-X, I assume it will be a while before the 27" version comes out.


CAO has the ATF-DX at $1099 indeed, but the ATF-X also retails at $1029. It's a step up in price but it wouldn't call it "quite a jump" personally.

Alternative's pricing is $650 vs $740 surprisingly, not sure why the price step is relatively that much larger.

Sent from my SM-G970U1 using Tapatalk


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## AzureSkydiver (Sep 13, 2021)

Seattlepop said:


> BTW, did you ever jump at Pelican Skydivers in Ridgely, Md? I went there in the 70's. Only made 12 jumps...too boring.


I've only jumped in Washington state: Snohomish, Orting; Chesapeake, VA; Hawaii, and Quincy, IL. I tell people that normally there are three reactions to skydiving: "Oh my God! That was amazing! Let me do that again!"; "I'll never ever do that again! What was I thinking?"; and "It was okay. About on par with a good rollercoaster ride in terms of adrenaline rush."


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## stick monkey (Mar 9, 2015)

The Mathews damper is about 30 dollars each so keep that in mind and I am sure that win win is paying some licensing fees and trying to recoup some of that money


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## Hikari (May 15, 2021)

Lancaster just added the riser to their site (about a 10% increase over the previous model):

25" ATF-DX: $830
25" ATF-X: $750

(Gillo has just come out with its new production of the GT 31" riser (black and gold) and it is $300 less expensive than the original: just for those people with a 34" draw needing a 76" bow.)


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## >--gt--> (Jul 1, 2002)

stick monkey said:


> The Mathews damper is about 30 dollars each so keep that in mind and I am sure that win win is paying some licensing fees and trying to recoup some of that money


That patent expired. WW’s first bow with that format damper came out immediately afterward.


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## stick monkey (Mar 9, 2015)

>--gt--> said:


> That patent expired. WW’s first bow with that format damper came out immediately afterward.


I would be pretty sure that the new ehs dampener used on the meta is still under patent. Although patents in the USA don’t seem to mean crap anywhere else.


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## AzureSkydiver (Sep 13, 2021)

Pretty easy to check. See if the patent number or "patent pending" is printed on the EHS dampener, or in its packaging.


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## Hikari (May 15, 2021)

>--gt--> said:


> That patent expired. WW’s first bow with that format damper came out immediately afterward.


W&W is marketing them as Mathews dampers, so there still would be an agreement between the organizations. And the Mathews name is a protected mark--you can license the use of that, although I am unsure what people mean by "license" in this conversation. The cost of the damper is certainly not the retail cost Mathews charges. And I am sure there are volume discounts to W&W. The fact that W&W calls them out as a feature also benefits Mathews as promotion. It would be hard to say how much it contributes to the cost of the riser (but certainly less than $30). W&W benefits as it gets to simply buy the part rather than invest in their own production, which would be high. All in all, this is good for both companies and the cost is kept to a minimum.


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## Hikari (May 15, 2021)

Interesting pricing at Lancaster on the ATF-DX:

25" riser: $830
27" riser: $850
27" two tone: $970


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## ryan b. (Sep 1, 2005)

IXpe Netherlands has all of those risers for $200 less.


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## BuzzMA (Jan 11, 2010)

ryan b. said:


> IXpe Netherlands has all of those risers for $200 less.


Does anybody have FIRST hand experience with IXpe?


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## ryan b. (Sep 1, 2005)

I’ve been ordering from them for 8 years. The owner, Xander, is always helpful. Usually takes about 10-14 days shipping to Nebraska USA. Never had any problems. I have a good friend who just got 2 fivics risers from iXpe for the cost of one fivics riser from fivics USA.


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## ryan b. (Sep 1, 2005)

The 10-14 days is for risers/stabs/limbs. smaller items get here very quickly. Same with altservices. I get things quicker from them than Lancaster but dont know how that’s possible 😝


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## Hikari (May 15, 2021)

ryan b. said:


> IXpe Netherlands has all of those risers for $200 less.


There is a tax on archery equipment in the US, which makes buying from Europe a good deal.


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## Maggiemaebe (Jan 10, 2017)

Hikari said:


> There is a tax on archery equipment in the US, which makes buying from Europe a good deal.


Do you mean the one on any products that say camping, fishing or hunting on the package?


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## ryan b. (Sep 1, 2005)

Fwiw I got my 25” and 27” xceed, 27” atf-x and 27”Xpro2 from Lancaster.


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## Hikari (May 15, 2021)

Maggiemaebe said:


> Do you mean the one on any products that say camping, fishing or hunting on the package?


No, think the one on the package that says, Hoyt, Win&Win, Gillo, Uukha...


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## Hikari (May 15, 2021)

ryan b. said:


> Fwiw I got my 25” and 27” xceed, 27” atf-x and 27”Xpro2 from Lancaster.


So, where did you buy that Gillo you used at the Lancaster Classic?  

I have bought most of my archery equipment from Lancaster as well. I mostly have used European sources for when there is no domestic supplier.

_(Man, archery is supposed to be a sport, not a collector's hobby!)_


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## st8arrow (Apr 25, 2005)

I buy quite a bit from Xander at ixpe....prices are good, shipping is fast.


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## ryan b. (Sep 1, 2005)

Hikari, I’m a different Ryan b. Small world I guess. I need new screen names and emails. Could be worse. I recently found out the email I’ve had for 15years is now a Qanon warcry omg 😝.


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## ksarcher (May 22, 2002)

st8arrow said:


> I buy quite a bit from Xander at ixpe....prices are good, shipping is fast.


Dave, What forms of payment will they accept? Seems to have a similar process as Alt Services.


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## Hikari (May 15, 2021)

ryan b. said:


> Hikari, I’m a different Ryan b. Small world I guess. I need new screen names and emails. Could be worse. I recently found out the email I’ve had for 15years is now a Qanon warcry omg 😝.


LOL

You look the same height in your posts...


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## st8arrow (Apr 25, 2005)

Stan... it's similar to Alt......I order what I want, and they send me a paypal invoice


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## Seattlepop (Dec 8, 2003)

Not exactly similar. You place the order based on Euros and you don't know shipping charges. You get an invoice within 24hrs showing the shipping charges added, again in Euros. You then get a notice from Paypal which has item and shipping and the current exchange rate, for example, in USD. 

A 100 Euro item with 20 Euro shipping can actually cost you say, $127 USD and there is the exchange rate fee which adds another $5 or so, or $132 for an item advertised as 100 Euros. 

Alt.Uk ordering is much less complex and immediately gratifying. As is LAS, of course. Imho.


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## st8arrow (Apr 25, 2005)

I usually ask for cost by email and Xander sends a return email with costs in USD


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## G.Lizard (3 mo ago)

Do not use Paypals exchange rate for Euros. There is an option to use your cc provider's rate. You will be surprised what paypal scams on that compared to your cc company. Most people just assume it is the same.


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