# FCA & Crossbow



## JDoupe (Dec 9, 2006)

Wow...and we had such a great turn out at the provincials. One of the things that drives me nuts is how many divisions we have in archery. That being said, that is not one that I think should be done away with.

Why would it have an effect on insurance? I've seen far more accidental B/T releases that Cross Bow Releases.

Don't get me wrong.....I'm not a Cross Bow Fanatic. I just think it's a groth area in the industry right now, and maybe we should try to grow the sport by taking advantage of this.


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## cdhunter (Feb 4, 2006)

For those living in Ontario hearing that the fca is dropping cross bows would sound absurd as the province is the driving force behind this movement. Across the rest of the country this isn't the case. Fca being a national governing body has to take a larger view of the issue cross the country. At one of our local ranges the owner is a strong proponent of cross bows but even in his range though sales are up he would admit there isn't a strong enough movement in Manitoba for the additional insurance of crossbows.


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## Guest (Jul 20, 2009)

this actually is quite funny since since the Government doesn't differenciate between bows and crossbows, I suspect this is more of pressure to stop any inclusion of crossbows into the FCA itself. If they don't want them inside the FCA thats fine but be straight about it, this insurance thing is just to provide cover. The OAA's insurance does without issue as well as several other insurance companies so ultimately this will be a non issue.

Currently the FCA offers no programes of any kind that include crossbows so them dropping it really ins't a big deal


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## hoody123 (Aug 11, 2004)

I just don't see why there is a separate rider for crossbows? I've shot with crossbows plenty of times and have NEVER felt that there was any additional risk whatsoever from them.

The only times that I've ever felt uncomfortable is when people are shooting too much bow and can't draw in a controlled fashion...


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## CLASSICHUNTER (May 20, 2005)

*strange*

Strange the only dangerous situations that i have witnessed are like Hoody says people who are over bowed and can`t draw their bow properly and have premature releases with their release... I get really upset with parents who let their children shoot bows they can hardly draw back ... just go to any 3-d and you will see at least one or two people or children like this... accidents waiting to happen... also the fca seems to be run lately and I`m sorry to say this by target or fita people ... and I shoot fita on a regular basis.... sorry but 3-d shooters I think still support most of the archery membership in this country... Its time to be able to direct our membership fees to either 3-d or target then we can send 3-d shooters to events and the monies are divided proportionately by membership numbers published and printed so the membership as a whole can see whats going on ...Again I was involved in politics and the executive has to be accountable to the public and paying members.... Actually how do I get to see a financial statement for the fca... and is the meeting in amos open to the public.....


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## Guest (Jul 20, 2009)

financials are available at the AGM,as for directed money I think you will fine that most if not all goes to the operation of the FCA, any travel teams are for the most part self funded any seperation into different organisations would result in even less of what is available now.

as for the crossbows I would love to see the justificaltion for a seperate rider from the insurance company, it would be like reading the sunday comics


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## Bow bandit (Apr 21, 2007)

Just wondering! If the FCA goes through with the ban on crossbows we must follow suit as per the OAA's rules on automatically adopting their rules which means crossbows cannot compete at the next two legs of the Triple crown.

More fun at the AGM! since they will have to wait untill then if this gets passed this year. Or at least this how I have been explicitly told how it works.

We seem to have alot of differences of opinion from the FCA and OAA so lets!

Never mind, I forgot been down this road.


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## H.M. Murdock (Nov 13, 2005)

CaptainT said:


> The FCA is looking to have crossbows dropped from their insurance policy.
> 
> Please discuss.





Bow bandit said:


> Just wondering! If the FCA goes through with the ban on crossbows we must follow suit as per the OAA's rules on automatically adopting their rules which means crossbows cannot compete at the next two legs of the Triple crown.
> 
> More fun at the AGM! since they will have to wait untill then if this gets passed this year. Or at least this how I have been explicitly told how it works.
> 
> ...



How did we get from the FCA droping crossbows from their insurance policy to the FCA banning crossbows:dontknow::dontknow:


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## Bowzone_Mikey (Dec 11, 2003)

Sean McKenty said:


> this actually is quite funny since since the Government doesn't differenciate between bows and crossbows,* I suspect this is more of pressure to stop any inclusion of crossbows into the FCA itself.* If they don't want them inside the FCA thats fine but be straight about it, this insurance thing is just to provide cover. The OAA's insurance does without issue as well as several other insurance companies so ultimately this will be a non issue.
> 
> Currently the FCA offers no programes of any kind that include crossbows so them dropping it really ins't a big deal


without really knowing whats going on totally I suspect this is more the case .... 

It is well documented that I am not a fan of Cross-bows .... But hear me out ...

Crossbows are legal archery tackle in most juristions across Canada (for the purpose of Bow hunting and archery seasons). 

I dont see a problem with a X-bow div in the FCA .... The insurance thing ... it depends on the carrier ... some dont differenciate ..others do... the reasoning behind some in my exp is that a Cross-bow can be set down "cocked" without modification from the factory.. a compound/long/recurve cannot (they need addional hardware availible after market) 

Now that said ....I am fully aware that its a one in a million chance that someone will set down a cocked x-bow ....but Insurance companies are in the business of insuring stupidity 

If the FCA drops the Crossbow rider of their Insurance they probally think they can save a ton of $$$$ in which the carrier charges because they dont know jack schitte about anything.


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## Guest (Jul 21, 2009)

Having a crossbow rider in the first place is quite laughable and thinking that dropping it would save anything is even more so, and if they do save anything that just means that the FCA insurer was ripping the organisation off all along.


Blake the OAA has a few classes that the FCA doesn't have now ie crossbow /open the FCA dropping a rider will have no effect on the OAA since the OAA's insurance covers it anyway along with OFAH/Ontario handgun etc


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## Bowzone_Mikey (Dec 11, 2003)

yes it is ...
but there are a few Insurance companies out there that wont insure a Suzuki sidekick because the wheelbase is too short .... I found that out first hand when I moved from BC to Alberta in 1998 and Private auto insurance ruled the land. 

If there is a Crossbow rider on the insurance policy it proves that FCA never really shopped around ...and its probally also true that not alot of comapnies would cover a national org like the FCA .... Its not you can go into your local insurance broker in Superstore or Wallmart and open a policy that covers thousands of members of a national organization .... 

so no real compition ...means they can charge whatever for whatever they want.

Ask yourself why a rifle range insurance is so expensive.... Rifles are no more dangerous than a crossbow...but both can be left unattended in a ready to fire postion.


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## CLASSICHUNTER (May 20, 2005)

*simple*

You can`t cock a x-bow unless you are at a shooting stake .. if leaving shooting box persay bow must be uncocked in some safe fashion... same as you don`t leave a loaded gun unattended right.....


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## ZarkSniper (Aug 12, 2003)

Bowzone_Mikey said:


> yes it is ...
> but there are a few Insurance companies out there that wont insure a Suzuki sidekick because the wheelbase is too short .... I found that out first hand when I moved from BC to Alberta in 1998 and Private auto insurance ruled the land.
> 
> If there is a Crossbow rider on the insurance policy it proves that FCA never really shopped around ...and its probally also true that not alot of comapnies would cover a national org like the FCA .... Its not you can go into your local insurance broker in Superstore or Wallmart and open a policy that covers thousands of members of a national organization ....
> ...


but I would know while walking up to the crossbow that it is ready to fire...not so with the rifle. I'm not 100% sure, but i think the rifle has a little longer effective killing range as well? :dontknow:

Not really the same at all.


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## cdhunter (Feb 4, 2006)

with the exception of Mike and myself this thread emphasizes my point about this being more of an regional issue than a national issue.

People question the funding aspect of the Fca one thing we keep forgetting is most of our money after memberships comes from sports Canada which only supports Olympic events and the money we receive from them has to be ear marked for the recurve target shooters. The compound team heading to Korea has pay their own way, No offense meant to the recurve shooters but who do you figure has a better chance of medalling.

back to x bows I for one actually agree with dropping cross bows from the insurance. If x bows want to be included in the fca then they need to better promote them selves across the country, not so much the shooters but the companys selling them. In ontario where their is a strong contingent x bow shooters they've proven beyond a shadow of a doubt that they deserve their place with their provincial org. Out west though x bow shooters need to step up and participate if they want the same privileges as their arrow slinging brethern.


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## Bowzone_Mikey (Dec 11, 2003)

ZarkSniper said:


> but I would know while walking up to the crossbow that it is ready to fire...not so with the rifle. I'm not 100% sure, but i think the rifle has a little longer effective killing range as well? :dontknow:
> 
> Not really the same at all.


You might be smarter than the average Idiot ... the insurance companies dont know that you are "smrtr" than rock ... and thus paint everyone with the same brush .... 

and your post above tells me that you are intelligent but cant see past your nose at the broader picture


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## ZarkSniper (Aug 12, 2003)

Bowzone_Mikey said:


> You might be smarter than the average Idiot ... the insurance companies dont know that you are "smrtr" than rock ... and thus paint everyone with the same brush ....
> 
> and your post above tells me that you are intelligent but cant see past your nose at the broader picture


If we were in the automotive forums arguing this point I would agree, but I assume that everyone here has enough knowledge to know better...at least anyone posting opinions on the topics at hand.
but your statement that I *bolded *was written as your opinion...not JOE insurance guy with no clue...In that reguard I will agree with you.


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## Xs24-7 (Aug 1, 2002)

CaptainT said:


> The FCA is looking to have crossbows dropped from their insurance policy.
> 
> Please discuss.


This statement is factualy incorrect. "The FCA" is not looking to drop crossbows from their insurance.
A couple years ago the FCA was asked if our insurance covered our members shooting at FCA clubs using crossbows. Our executive director asked the insurance company, and they agreed to cover crossbow archers, but for an small increase in premiums. A letter was sent to clubs noting that if members wished to use a crossbow, that additional coverage was availible. 
What has occured since, is that some members have expressed their concern over this, and have asked that the FCA to discuss the issue. Some feel that by offering crossbow insurance, we are facilitating the addition of crossbow to the bow hunting seasons in their provinces, and they are deeply concerned about that. At the same time, members from provinces where crossbows are already being used are concerned that actions may be taken to "ban" crossbows from use at FCA clubs.
At this point, it is simply an item for discussion, and no motion is before the FCA Board of directors.



CLASSICHUNTER said:


> Strange the only dangerous situations that i have witnessed are like Hoody says people who are over bowed and can`t draw their bow properly and have premature releases with their release... I get really upset with parents who let their children shoot bows they can hardly draw back ... just go to any 3-d and you will see at least one or two people or children like this... accidents waiting to happen... also the fca seems to be run lately and I`m sorry to say this by target or fita people ... and I shoot fita on a regular basis.... sorry but 3-d shooters I think still support most of the archery membership in this country... Its time to be able to direct our membership fees to either 3-d or target then we can send 3-d shooters to events and the monies are divided proportionately by membership numbers published and printed so the membership as a whole can see whats going on ...Again I was involved in politics and the executive has to be accountable to the public and paying members.... Actually how do I get to see a financial statement for the fca... and is the meeting in amos open to the public.....


The FCA provides an audited statement each year, and it is availible to all its member provinces. There are no secrets. The membership money you speak is minimal, as by the time the insurance premiums are paid there is little left over. The honest truth is that without the funds recieved by the COC and Sport Canada, the FCA would run a massive defecit each year just to meets its basic needs.The money we do recieve from these funding partners is targeted to the areas as laid out in our agreements with the partners.


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## Bow bandit (Apr 21, 2007)

H.M. Murdock said:


> How did we get from the FCA droping crossbows from their insurance policy to the FCA banning crossbows:dontknow::dontknow:


If they are not going to be covered under their insurance they are obviously not going to allow them to shoot any of their events which would be a ban, NO!

Sean we also had 11 ring scoring, different from the FCA and that was changed! so to keep in line you must ban them from competing if the FCA does to keep in line with the rules laid out by the OAA to automatically adopt FCA rule changes NO exceptions, untill voted on at the AGM.


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## btmckay (Dec 7, 2003)

Blake
What about the 8.5 power rule for binos that the FCA has and the OAA
doesn't :mg:
Brian


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## CLASSICHUNTER (May 20, 2005)

*attn xs 24*

could you please answer my last sentence in my quote... the words I stress are where can[ I ]get a copy without jumping through hoops thanks ...a direct answer would be appreciated and I thank you in advance...


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## CLASSICHUNTER (May 20, 2005)

*att brian*

go into the fca web site a whole bunch of new rules have been adopted and I think I read 9 power for binos I`m going today to get a rule book and updates as soon as office opens here in ottawa if you want one call me on my cell 613-297-5306 and I`ll bring it to amos if you are going for you...


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## btmckay (Dec 7, 2003)

Ted
Not going to Amos couldn't get the time off work, but thanks for the offer
Brian


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## Bow bandit (Apr 21, 2007)

I hear ya Brian, but that is one of the rules that was not originaly not adopted by the OAA when they went to the FCA rules, so it gets a pass I guess.

I personally think the FCA not allowing them to compete is very close minded, but my point is that the OAA will have to follow suit if this goes through before the AGM because this is the way they have writen the rules. Its no different than changing the scoring half way through the year.

This will again mostly hurt the shooters in the east! we need to follow IBO for 3d not the FCA. The rules are all there and they make sense! all of the major events are in the northen States which many Ontarians an Quebec shooters attend and they allow crossbows.

Just a thought.


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## CLASSICHUNTER (May 20, 2005)

*fca rule books*

just called fca office told the only books in stock where from 2008 and if I needed updates to down load them myself... rule book is small, not 8 by 11 inches... also with a national shoot coming up in 3 days it would be nice to not have to sit in front of my computer for 2 hours to find and read new rules .. Printing of rule books is every 2 years I was just told by office, so no new ones not till 2010 I guess... I am a member of the ibo also in the states and every year when I get my membership card i get a rule book as well wow what a concept all for i think 20 some dollars...


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## ingoldarchery (Dec 3, 2008)

Not sure how to go about this but the FCA had better realize that archery is "the practice, art, or skill of shooting with a bow" as taken from Webster Encyclopedic Dictionary. 
We are a select group of people that enjoy a sport with any type of equipment. One group should not be picked on or centered out as we all shoot a single projectile powered by flexing of limbs. This is the stuff anti-gun enthusiast love to see as, they will use it to lobby in new laws to restrict our freedom. 
Also when a membership in the OAA is paid does not $10.00 of it go to the FCA, so if this is than why shouldn't there be a class for it in every province.
I agree that there needs to be greater participation in the catagory, and an easy way of doing this is by taking all speed limits off as long as you use (meet) the minimum weight requirement for there bolts (same as they had for 2007 in Barrie Ontario).
As for the insurance part, as an Archery Shop owner it cost me no more for crossbows to be in my shop as a compound or tradition to be in inventory or to be tested. So maybe they should be shopping around.

FINALLY I would like to thank those that are opposed to this ban, as I know several of you (most don't shoot x-bow) but, realize the importance of this class to our sport. And for you that want to see it banned, maybe you better look at the bigger picture.


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## ZarkSniper (Aug 12, 2003)

Bow bandit said:


> I hear ya Brian, but that is one of the rules that was not originaly not adopted by the OAA when they went to the FCA rules, so it gets a pass I guess.
> 
> I personally think the FCA not allowing them to compete is very close minded, but my point is that the OAA will have to follow suit if this goes through before the AGM because this is the way they have writen the rules. Its no different than changing the scoring half way through the year.
> 
> ...


It's not a rule change, it's a division change (or in this case deletion). Since the OAA insurance covers them, I don't believe you are going to see them being dropped by the OAA anytime soon.


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## Mr.LIFETIME (Apr 12, 2006)

ingoldarchery said:


> Not sure how to go about this but the FCA had better realize that archery is "the practice, art, or skill of shooting with a bow" as taken from Webster Encyclopedic Dictionary.
> We are a select group of people that enjoy a sport with any type of equipment. One group should not be picked on or centered out as we all shoot a single projectile powered by flexing of limbs. This is the stuff anti-gun enthusiast love to see as, they will use it to lobby in new laws to restrict our freedom.
> Also when a membership in the OAA is paid does not $10.00 of it go to the FCA, so if this is than why shouldn't there be a class for it in every province.
> I agree that there needs to be greater participation in the catagory, and an easy way of doing this is by taking all speed limits off as long as you use (meet) the minimum weight requirement for there bolts (same as they had for 2007 in Barrie Ontario).
> ...




Very well said.


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## Bow bandit (Apr 21, 2007)

ZarkSniper said:


> It's not a rule change, it's a division change (or in this case deletion). Since the OAA insurance covers them, I don't believe you are going to see them being dropped by the OAA anytime soon.


Division or rule change we still have to adopt it. The OAA decided to adopt any changes made by the FCA and this is no different! 

The recent changes that where made will also affect attendence at the next two legs of the triple crown as people who did not shoot well at the frist leg will not have the extra points available to make up on those who did and may chose not to attend. Not to mention that the FCA 3d Champs are being held on the same weekend as the second leg.

Zark this is all bad for the sport, sort of my point all along! I am not looking for a fight I just want things done right. The same rules should apply to everything. Like it or not this is the direction the OAA went in so they must treat all cases the same untill the AGM!


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## Stash (Jun 1, 2002)

Bow bandit said:


> ...my point is that the OAA will have to follow suit if this goes through before the AGM because this is the way they have writen the rules. Its no different than changing the scoring half way through the year.
> 
> ...
> 
> Division or rule change we still have to adopt it. The OAA decided to adopt any changes made by the FCA and this is no different!


I'd just like to point out that the OAA rules (OAA rule 11.19.24) regarding the crossbow division are specifically indicated as being different from the FCA rules, so the OAA does NOT automatically follow the FCA in this case. It's not the same as the issue that had you so upset regarding the scoring change.


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## pintojk (Jan 31, 2003)

Stash said:


> I'd just like to point out that the OAA rules (OAA rule 11.19.24) regarding the crossbow division are specifically indicated as being different from the FCA rules, so the OAA does NOT automatically follow the FCA in this case. It's not the same as the issue that had you so upset regarding the scoring change.


I know/hope the OAA will forge their own path regarding crossbows, I've been to some shoots in past where there's as many crossbow'rs as freestylers .....


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## Baldini (Mar 7, 2005)

I would like to start by thanking Ed for his literate, informed and on-topic input to to Adam's request for discussion. From his post, I do have a couple questions though. What provinces do or do not have a crossbow season for deer? Is the current crossbow rider mandatory? Or is it an extra rider that can be opted out of if a club agrees not to allow the use of crossbows at its facility or events?

I realise that there can frequently be a lot of friction between people that shoot different types of bows for different purposes and events, but look around at the next tournament you're at. We're all archers. There are not a huge number of us. We're a big country with a small population density. I might even go as far as to say that archers are few and far-between. In the eyes of an insurance company we're a special needs group. That makes us not much more than a pain in the butt for them. Let's try to give them a mature, united voice headed in a positive direction.


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## Bow bandit (Apr 21, 2007)

Stash said:


> I'd just like to point out that the OAA rules (OAA rule 11.19.24) regarding the crossbow division are specifically indicated as being different from the FCA rules, so the OAA does NOT automatically follow the FCA in this case. It's not the same as the issue that had you so upset regarding the scoring change.


 The OAA had 11 ring scoring specifically different than the FCA and it was changed! What is the difference?

Hey Stan can you find me the rule where it says we only Adopt some of the FCA Changes automatically so I can be clear on this.

This is very on topic as it effects crossbow being able to be shot at the OAA championships.

My point in all of this is lets do our own thing and this won't be a problem anymore.


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## crk (Jul 12, 2005)

Like it or not crossbows are here to stay.It gives gun hunters a longer hunting season and many bow hunters switch over during the winter season.
On the 3d course I see archers who can no longer draw a compond bow using one.Not to mention the women I also see on the 3d course with a crossbow.For their sake and archery's sake I hope this is just(hot air).


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## CaptainT (Aug 14, 2005)

Bow bandit said:


> The OAA had 11 ring scoring specifically different than the FCA and it was changed! What is the difference?
> 
> Hey Stan can you find me the rule where it says we only Adopt some of the FCA Changes automatically so I can be clear on this.
> 
> ...


OAA ByLaw 15. B. iii. You can find it at the link provided. There are no OAA meetings until September so we will not be voting to change any rules or regulations. Having a rider for crossbows on our insurance policy has nothing to do with the rules and regulations anyway so it's not something that will change for the OAA.

Now back to the topic of FCA Insurance and Crossbows.


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## CaptainT (Aug 14, 2005)

Xs24-7 said:


> This statement is factualy incorrect. "The FCA" is not looking to drop crossbows from their insurance.
> A couple years ago the FCA was asked if our insurance covered our members shooting at FCA clubs using crossbows. Our executive director asked the insurance company, and they agreed to cover crossbow archers, but for an small increase in premiums. A letter was sent to clubs noting that if members wished to use a crossbow, that additional coverage was availible.
> What has occured since, is that some members have expressed their concern over this, and have asked that the FCA to discuss the issue. Some feel that by offering crossbow insurance, we are facilitating the addition of crossbow to the bow hunting seasons in their provinces, and they are deeply concerned about that. At the same time, members from provinces where crossbows are already being used are concerned that actions may be taken to "ban" crossbows from use at FCA clubs.
> At this point, it is simply an item for discussion, and no motion is before the FCA Board of directors.


Thanks for clearing this up. I don't have all the facts and just wanted to see what the public thought. I believe it is being discussed in Amos at the 3D meeting (but again I may be wrong).


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