# Angel Quivers???



## jwalgast (Aug 7, 2005)

Anybody know where to get Angel Quivers and Belts with a good selection of colors other than Lancaster Archery? Thanks.


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## tecshooter05 (Mar 7, 2005)

*guy gerig*

if im not mistaking Guy Gerig deals angel quivers. he is on the boards here somewhere, sorry for not much help 

kyle


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## Jim C (Oct 15, 2002)

tecshooter05 said:


> if im not mistaking Guy Gerig deals angel quivers. he is on the boards here somewhere, sorry for not much help
> 
> kyle



his handle is "psychocop" sometimes he is easy to find, sometimes not so. He is associated with PRO LINE LANES In NYC-they are a hoyt dealer that you can find on the hoyt website of dealers

top notch fellow to deal with


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## jwalgast (Aug 7, 2005)

Thanks, I appreciate it!


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## CM JOAD (Oct 9, 2005)

It must be an age thing. I just can't get excited about the look of an angel quiver. It looks "home made". It reminds me of a craft project with woven edges we might do in school. It seems much more logical and financially responsible to get a nice leather quiver from someone like NEET.


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## Jim C (Oct 15, 2002)

CM JOAD said:


> It must be an age thing. I just can't get excited about the look of an angel quiver. It looks "home made". It reminds me of a craft project with woven edges we might do in school. It seems much more logical and financially responsible to get a nice leather quiver from someone like NEET.



there is no comparison-Angels last longer and are much lighter. You can take them apart and stuff them in your case. I have owned Neets, Kings, Fists, Auroras, etc and all I use now are Angels.


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## CM JOAD (Oct 9, 2005)

Jim C said:


> there is no comparison-Angels last longer and are much lighter. You can take them apart and stuff them in your case. I have owned Neets, Kings, Fists, Auroras, etc and all I use now are Angels.


It is not a quality or usability issue. I simply don't like the way it looks.


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## Jim C (Oct 15, 2002)

CM JOAD said:


> It is not a quality or usability issue. I simply don't like the way it looks.


can't argue with that. Having lugged quivers up and down the mountains of Utah, and the slippery clay cliffs of Radman's field courses, I only use the angels. My first angel fita quiver was given to me by my wife in 1997 or so-and while its not bright white anymore, its still in very good shape. I now have a second (Black and green) and a couple of the field quivers-one for field, one for TNC. I have a nice FIST but its so fg heavy.


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## Hawksnest88 (Dec 12, 2005)

jwalgast said:


> Anybody know where to get Angel Quivers and Belts with a good selection of colors other than Lancaster Archery? Thanks.


www.k1-archery.com

K1 Archery has four colors listed if they have them in stock. Bill G


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## Jian (Apr 13, 2006)

http://www.archery-direct.com


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## Jim Pruitte (May 27, 2002)

I ordered my family's Angle quivers from Guy and I could'nt have been more happy with the service as well as the price. I just placed an order with him again last wee for a quiver for one of my students.


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## XMAN (Jul 2, 2003)

I did too. Good service. If you shoot indoors, then try making the Vegas tournament becuase the makers come from Japan and try to sell all their supplies (cheaper) so they dont have to take them back. Really nice people.


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## Rchr (Jul 3, 2003)

*FIST Quivers*



Jim C said:


> I have a nice FIST but its so fg heavy.


Wow, (Heavy? )
Hey JimC are you interested in selling your FIST quiver? What kind is it? 
I have a FIST quiver and love it. I received a FIST Field quiver (4 tubes, 3 pockests & 21" long)for fathers day last year and man it is a very elegant looking quiver. In My Opinion it has the classiest look of all the quivers out there. Before this I had a King quiver and my FIST weighs about half of what a King or a NEET quiver weighs. I don't know how much it weighs but I can empty it out and weigh it if you like. (Ok I went out and weighed it on my pelouze digital scale and it weighs 1.8 lbs).
When I first got it I showed it to my friends and they all admired it and then a friend remarked "it must be heavy" I took it off and emptied it out and handed it to him, his reaction was "wow, it doesn't way anything", he and another friend that own Angel quivers both agreed that my FIST Field quiver was extremely light weight specially for its size.
I have seen and checked their Angel quivers and they don't seem any lighter. As a matter of fact it was one of these Angel quiver owners that told me about this thread and how somebody had said that FIST quivers were heavy.
In my opinion its all about personal likes or dislikes. Some like blondes some like brunettes. Ford or Chevy? To me the Angel quivers look to much like Vinyl. My FIST quiver is heavy because of all the junk I put in it but it looks great.:wink:


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## CM JOAD (Oct 9, 2005)

rchr said:


> In my opinion its all about personal likes or dislikes. Some like blondes some like brunettes. Ford or Chevy? To me the Angel quivers look to much like Vinyl. My FIST quiver is heavy because of all the junk I put in it but it looks great.:wink:


Amen! Can the quiver itself "feel" heavy "on your hip"? 6 arrows, release, binoculars, range finder, allen wrenches, bow stand & water....Yea, I guess I can see how a "heavy" quiver can weigh you down.

Besides, in the wind, it is kind of nice to have that extra ballast!:wink:


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## Jim C (Oct 15, 2002)

rchr said:


> Wow, (Heavy? )
> Hey JimC are you interested in selling your FIST quiver? What kind is it?
> I have a FIST quiver and love it. I received a FIST Field quiver (4 tubes, 3 pockests & 21" long)for fathers day last year and man it is a very elegant looking quiver. In My Opinion it has the classiest look of all the quivers out there. Before this I had a King quiver and my FIST weighs about half of what a King or a NEET quiver weighs. I don't know how much it weighs but I can empty it out and weigh it if you like. (Ok I went out and weighed it on my pelouze digital scale and it weighs 1.8 lbs).
> When I first got it I showed it to my friends and they all admired it and then a friend remarked "it must be heavy" I took it off and emptied it out and handed it to him, his reaction was "wow, it doesn't way anything", he and another friend that own Angel quivers both agreed that my FIST Field quiver was extremely light weight specially for its size.
> ...


Its the big four tube job. IT was delivered fairly quickly as was the one my wife got. I use it for an indoor practice rig. It looks great, I ordered the FIST Pro field quiver after looking at Joe M's at the National Field in 03. I ordered it in June. I got it a year later-sans the screws washers and nuts that attach the quiver to the hanger. It has been sitting in a box ever since-three emails to the maker and no replies-same with a couple phone messages. One of these days I will probably run across the hardware and I will put it together and give it to someone, I got sick of the wait and bought an angel field quiver from Guy and then another so I never got around to needing that FIST


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## Rchr (Jul 3, 2003)

*So how much?*

JimC,
I might be interested or know someone that is, are you willing to part with it?


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## Jim C (Oct 15, 2002)

rchr said:


> JimC,
> I might be interested or know someone that is, are you willing to part with it?


with a big JOAD club and lots of "guests" at my home indoor and outdoor ranges I tend to need extra quivers for those who don't have them. I like the quiver, its just too heavy for long fita shoots where you end up walking a couple miles


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## CM JOAD (Oct 9, 2005)

Jim C said:


> there is no comparison-Angels last longer and are much lighter. You can take them apart and stuff them in your case. I have owned Neets, Kings, Fists, Auroras, etc and all I use now are Angels.


I just weighed our NEET quiver also. It weighs 27 ounces empty. That is less than 1-3/4 pounds. Carried on the hip, how can that be considered "heavy" regardless how far you walk? My body weight varies more than that depending on how much water I drink... A small pair of binoculars is 28-34 oz. A bottle of water weighs almost two pounds!

And Angel quivers better "last longer", they cost almost 3 times as much as NEET. If your NEET quiver doesn't hold up for some reason, buy another. You are still ahead of what you paid for the one Angel.


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## Jim Pruitte (May 27, 2002)

CM JOAD said:


> I just weighed (empty) our NEET quiver also. It weighs 27 ounces, less than 1-3/4 pounds. Carried on the hip, how can that be considered "heavy"?
> 
> Angel quivers better "last longer", they cost almost 3 times as much as NEET. If your NEET quiver doesn't hold up for some reason, buy another. You are still ahead of what you paid for the Angel.


I gotta agree with Jim C here.... The weight difference isn't just a small amount. It's quite noticable. When you do a considerable amount of walking (field, FITA) it's makes a difference in how you feel at the end of the tournament.

Yes Angle quivers do hold up well... And if you have a problem, the company will make it good (I had a problem, notified them by email and emailed pics of the problem, he shipped me the replacement part).

I bought three quivers (one for wife, daughter, and myself). And no... they aren't inexpensive, but I know I won't have to purchase a quiver for sometime now.

Jim


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## CM JOAD (Oct 9, 2005)

Jim Pruitte said:


> I gotta agree with Jim C here.... The weight difference isn't just a small amount. It's quite noticable. When you do a considerable amount of walking (field, FITA) it's makes a difference in how you feel at the end of the tournament.
> 
> Yes Angle quivers do hold up well... And if you have a problem, the company will make it good (I had a problem, notified them by email and emailed pics of the problem, he shipped me the replacement part).
> 
> ...


I appreciate your opinion and your product endorsement/testimonial.

I simply don't believe that a few ounces worn on your hip will increase your fatigue level at the end of the day. Now if you pack your quiver up with every other piece of equipment, that is a different story, but it is not the quiver's fault. Also, I just don't care to walk around with a quiver that looks like I made it in shop/craft class when I was 15.


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## Jim Pruitte (May 27, 2002)

CM JOAD said:


> I appreciate your opinion and your product endorsement/testimonial.


This is my opinion, but not an endorsement since they do not sponsor me.



CM JOAD said:


> I simply don't believe that a few ounces worn on your hip will increase your fatigue level at the end of the day. Now if you pack your quiver up with every other piece of equipment, that is a different story, but it is not the quiver's fault. Also, I just don't care to walk around with a quiver that looks like I made it in shop/craft class when I was 15.


If you don't think that lugging around an extra pound on your hip (for more than an extra mile) won't cause fatigue and hense shooting not up to one's average, you haven't shot much field archery.

But... that is only my opinion as well... :wink:


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## Jim C (Oct 15, 2002)

Jim Pruitte said:


> This is my opinion, but not an endorsement since they do not sponsor me.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Utah-world field trials 2000. A half hour hike to get to the first station-parking lot was over 9000 feet above sea level-the course-straight up-way up. I was in good shape-I played A level squash three times a week but coming from cincinnati, I could hardly breathe. I fell three times and my knee was the size of a cantalope (fortunately that sort of elevation is now illegal for a star fita field). every extra ounce sure was felt there.


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## CM JOAD (Oct 9, 2005)

Jim Pruitte said:


> This is my opinion, but not an endorsement since they do not sponsor me.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Are you suggesting that the Angel quiver is 11 oz? You might consider stuffing your arrows in your pants. That would save another 3/4 pound!

Besides, I am so severely overweight, that "an extra pound" is not part of my vocabulary.


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## Rchr (Jul 3, 2003)

*Angel Quivers*

Ok, are these things made of leather or not? I went in to the website that Jian has and it says _Superior Man-made leather._


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## Jim Pruitte (May 27, 2002)

No they are not made of leather. But as I said before, they are noticibly lighter than leather, just as durable (if not more so), and if (when) you are caught in the rain, they don't beed dye down your leg.

Jim


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## CM JOAD (Oct 9, 2005)

Jim Pruitte said:


> No they are not made of leather. But as I said before, they are noticibly lighter than leather, just as durable (if not more so), and if (when) you are caught in the rain, they don't beed dye down your leg.
> 
> Jim


It is really where your priorities are. If you like the look of leather, you won't like the look of plastic. If you like the regal look of leather construction, you won't like the "craft-kit" look of the Angel.

If three extra ounces in your quiver is going to tire you out, you maybe should work on your conditioning. (Neet = 27 oz; Angel = ??) And don't carry your car keys and billfold with you...that's another 8 ounces. And you should use the plastic binoculars and range finders. You can't see too good through them, but they are much lighter than the glass optics. Be careful of carrying too much water, that's an extra 16 ounces.

If rain damages your leather quiver, you can buy another one and still be less cost that the original Angel.

If you like to support American-made products, you won't like Japanese-made Angel products.

Your Choice?


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## ksarcher (May 22, 2002)

cmJOAD,

I think have had your say as to your dislike for the Angel quiver. zip: :zip: 


I think the real reason for your dislike is due to something all together different than the fact that it looks to you like a Childs toy!

I happen to own a Neet leather, Fist leather and three (3) angel quivers. I would say that they are all equal in quality and each serves it own purpose.

It is time to move on to another subject.,


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## CM JOAD (Oct 9, 2005)

ksarcher said:


> cmJOAD,
> 
> I think have had your say as to your dislike for the Angel quiver. zip: :zip:
> 
> ...


It is not that I dislike it. You have your opinion on what is "better" as do I. I am just trying to support American made products vs the concept that American leather is "too heavy" and that Japanese plastic is lighter, therefore better. You can say that Angel is "better" with your reasons, but when I express which I think is better, and why, it is considered "hateful" and am told to "move on".

It is your choice what you say and do. It is not your choice of what I say and do. I will "move on" when I choose to "move on".


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## CM JOAD (Oct 9, 2005)

rchr said:


> Wow, (Heavy? )
> my FIST weighs about half of what a King or a NEET quiver weighs. (on my pelouze digital scale and it weighs 1.8 lbs).


My NEET quiver weighs 27 ounces, hardly "twice" what your 29 ounce FIST weighs.


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## Rchr (Jul 3, 2003)

*your right*

CM JOAD, 
You are probably right. I never actually weighed it. But I can get my hands on my King and a Neet and will do so. Just for my own info.


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## Jim C (Oct 15, 2002)

I like the fact that you can have your name, your club or your nation's name on your belt or quiver from Angel.

It would be nice if an American company could do this
right now they won't


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## Rchr (Jul 3, 2003)

*Fist*

Just to clarify a fist weighs 24 ounces, 1lb + 8oz= 24oz. (Not that it makes much of a difference). 
Any way I am pretty sure that my FIST is lighter than my King Quiver.
Remember it's all in personal likes and dislikes. 
I too wish that the olympic team would support an american made product.


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## CM JOAD (Oct 9, 2005)

Jim C said:


> I like the fact that you can have your name, your club or your nation's name on your belt or quiver from Angel.
> 
> It would be nice if an American company could do this
> right now they won't


I is obviously possible. They must be choosing not too engrave. I would think that there are lots of leather shops around that would be willing to put on whatever text you wish.


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## Jim C (Oct 15, 2002)

why look around when Angel does the job well? There is a reason why more than 2/3 of the 1100 Star Fita or better recurve archers use the Angel (that is based on my observations at various nationals, regionals and local shoots)


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## FtCPhill (Jun 24, 2005)

Jim C said:


> ..There is a reason why more than 2/3 of the 1100 Star Fita or better recurve archers use the Angel...


This would indicate that ones choice in quiver is related to thier performance? I think the trend has more to do with looks, symbology, availablity, more so than the skill of the shooter, or that the 1100 shooter knows something the others don't.


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## Rchr (Jul 3, 2003)

*Amen*

FtCPhill,
AMEN!!


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## Jim C (Oct 15, 2002)

FtCPhill said:


> This would indicate that ones choice in quiver is related to thier performance? I think the trend has more to do with looks, symbology, availablity, more so than the skill of the shooter, or that the 1100 shooter knows something the others don't.



no kidding but a few years ago we had this same debate and gt demonstrated why most of us who are serious recurve archers use the angel. That they are lighter, durable and snap apart for storage in the SKB case might have something to do with it. I am fortunate, I can afford what I want when it comes to archery. I have had neet, king, fist and angel and angel is all I buy. I have had the same angel for 8 years now-a neet leather I gave my best student in 98 was almost worn through after 2 years


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## FtCPhill (Jun 24, 2005)

I will agree that when it comes to things that hang off your body, a lighter-is-better approach is always better, but if quiver weight is really a factor how do so many of the worlds best compound shooters get away with using obviously heavy quiver rigs? I would assume quiver weight would effect compound shooters the same as recurvers.


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## Rchr (Jul 3, 2003)

*plad pants*

Kind of like the golfers that wear the plad pants. :wink: 

I just weighed all the quivers that I have. 

Neet:28oz
King: 29oz
Fist: 24oz
These are the 21" 4 tube, 3 pocket quivers. I dont know what an Angel qiuver of the same type would weigh. If these are being compared to the field one pocket type quivers that are about 10-12" long then its a no brainer. JimC how much does an Angel field quiver weigh?


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## CM JOAD (Oct 9, 2005)

Jim C said:


> no kidding but a few years ago we had this same debate and gt demonstrated why most of us who are serious recurve archers use the angel. That they are lighter, durable and snap apart for storage in the SKB case might have something to do with it. I am fortunate, I can afford what I want when it comes to archery. I have had neet, king, fist and angel and angel is all I buy. I have had the same angel for 8 years now-a neet leather I gave my best student in 98 was almost worn through after 2 years


I am not sure this is true comparison. First, Jim C "can afford" what he wants and I believe he has multiple Angel quivers. His student probably doesn't have multiple quivers to use and therefore uses the one quiver for everything he does. There is no comparison between they way and amount he uses his quiver and how Jim uses all of his. If the student had multiplle quivers to choose from, I would bet that it would have lasted longer than 2 years. Also, we don't know the condition of the neet quiver when Jim C gave it to him. Besides, after the neet quiver wears out, a new quiver can be purchase and the total expenditure is STILL less than one Angel.

Also Jim C, Jim Pruitt said that he is not sponsored by Angel. How about you Jim C. Are you sponsored by Angel?


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## Jim C (Oct 15, 2002)

CM JOAD said:


> I am not sure this is true comparison. First, Jim C "can afford" what he wants and I believe he has multiple Angel quivers. His student probably doesn't have multiple quivers to use and therefore uses the one quiver for everything he does. There is no comparison between they way and amount he uses his quiver and how Jim uses all of his. If the student had multiplle quivers to choose from, I would bet that it would have lasted longer than 2 years. Also, we don't know the condition of the neet quiver when Jim C gave it to him. Besides, after the neet quiver wears out, a new quiver can be purchase and the total expenditure is STILL less than one Angel.
> 
> Also Jim C, Jim Pruitt said that he is not sponsored by Angel. How about you Jim C. Are you sponsored by Angel?


Nope, not at all. The neet was a present and for two years I used my angel for ALL archery

BUY WHAT YOU WANT-you asked what was best and I told you. This thread started as an inquiry where a fellow could get an ANGEL and you started complaining how they look leading to those of us who have a bit more experience explaining why we own them


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## CM JOAD (Oct 9, 2005)

Jim C said:


> Nope, not at all. The neet was a present and for two years I used my angel for ALL archery
> 
> BUY WHAT YOU WANT-you asked what was best and I told you. This thread started as an inquiry where a fellow could get an ANGEL and you started complaining how they look leading to those of us who have a bit more experience explaining why we own them


I don't recall asking you what was best? You gave me your opinion and I gave you mine. Yet, my opinion is considered "complaining" and yours is considered "explaining". I guess when one "knows it all" there is no reason to consider any other perspective.

By the way Jim C., what does your Angel weigh?


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## Jim C (Oct 15, 2002)

CM JOAD said:


> I don't recall asking you what was best? You gave me your opinion and I gave you mine. Yet, my opinion is considered "complaining" and yours is considered "explaining". I guess when one "knows it all" there is no reason to consider any other perspective.
> 
> By the way Jim C., what does your Angel weigh?


No idea-I don't worry about that, I shoot 20,000 arrows using one quiver and 20,000 arrows using the other and decide which one is lighter that way


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## CM JOAD (Oct 9, 2005)

Jim C said:


> No idea-I don't worry about that, I shoot 20,000 arrows using one quiver and 20,000 arrows using the other and decide which one is lighter that way


Well, if subjective perception is good enough for you, we wouldn't want to confuse the issue with physical facts like exactly what it weighs. How earth do you find time to shoot 40,000 arrows with close to 16,000 AT posts?

If the N


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## Jim C (Oct 15, 2002)

CM JOAD said:


> Well, if subjective perception is good enough for you, we wouldn't want to confuse the issue with physical facts like exactly what it weighs. How earth do you find time to shoot 40,000 arrows with close to 16,000 AT posts?
> 
> If the N


If you come to JOAD nationals, you will learn alot of things. I averaged about 25-30K arrows a year. I shot a fist for several indoor seasons, back when I was a compound archer I had a neet leather, and when I was a kid I had a KING-still have it 35 years later.


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## black (Apr 26, 2006)

> age 47


thats how


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## CM JOAD (Oct 9, 2005)

black said:


> thats how


Being that Jim C is 47 years old doesn't do much for me, but if Black is 102, thats impressive!


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## Jim C (Oct 15, 2002)

CM JOAD said:


> Being that Jim C is 47 years old doesn't do much for me, but if Black is 102, thats impressive!


methinks Black is a fibbin or its a typo


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## CM JOAD (Oct 9, 2005)

Jim C said:


> If you come to JOAD nationals, you will learn alot of things. I averaged about 25-30K arrows a year. I shot a fist for several indoor seasons, back when I was a compound archer I had a neet leather, and when I was a kid I had a KING-still have it 35 years later.


I may experience alot of things, but you can't make me "learn" :wink:


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## CM JOAD (Oct 9, 2005)

Jim C said:


> No idea-I don't worry about that, I shoot 20,000 arrows using one quiver and 20,000 arrows using the other and decide which one is lighter that way


Jim C, it is not that you don't know what you are talking about, you obviously do. Maybe it is just that you have bad taste.


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## Jim C (Oct 15, 2002)

CM JOAD said:


> Jim C, it is not that you don't know what you are talking about, you obviously do. Maybe it is just that you have bad taste.


 maybe you ought to listen to what people who have been around the sport a bit longer than you have have to say. Its too bad gt doesn't post here anymore-you would get the unadulterated unmodified version  You are souding like the classic newbie offended that there are people who actually understand the issue a bit better than you. you also appear rather defensive.

buy whatever you want-tell all of us who use angels that they are too expensive and look cheap. I really don't care


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## CM JOAD (Oct 9, 2005)

Jim C said:


> maybe you ought to listen to what people who have been around the sport a bit longer than you have have to say. Its too bad gt doesn't post here anymore-you would get the unadulterated unmodified version  You are souding like the classic newbie offended that there are people who actually understand the issue a bit better than you. you also appear rather defensive.
> 
> buy whatever you want-tell all of us who use angels that they are too expensive and look cheap. I really don't care


Well, Jim C, you have just spent 14 posts telling us all that "you really don't care what anyone else thinks". I would think that anyone as experienced as you could figure out a way to be a bit more efficient.

I heard an interesting comparison of the difference between arrogance and confidence. Confidence is the belief that you have something to teach. Arrogance is the belief that you have nothing else to learn. I think I am sensing some arrogance.


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## Jim C (Oct 15, 2002)

CM JOAD said:


> Well, Jim C, you have just spent 14 posts telling us all that "you really don't care what anyone else thinks". I would think that anyone as experienced as you could figure out a way to be a bit more efficient.



I could but that would get me banned and the thread deleted


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## Rchr (Jul 3, 2003)

*King*

I used my KING quiver for about 14 years and it was pretty beat up when it got retired.


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## CM JOAD (Oct 9, 2005)

rchr said:


> I used my KING quiver for about 14 years and it was pretty beat up when it got retired.


That isn't possible! That doesn't fit into the "the Angel is the only quiver that lasts more than 2 years" philosophy of those "in the know". How could you say something so "hateful".


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## Jim C (Oct 15, 2002)

CM JOAD said:


> That isn't possible! That doesn't fit into the "the Angel is the only quiver that lasts more than 2 years" philosophy of those "in the know". How could you say something so "hateful".


sheeesh-my king is 34 years old=still in decent shape, but I didn't use it for 18 years


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## Rchr (Jul 3, 2003)

*King*

Well its beat up but a little elbow grease and some shoe polish will get it looking spiffy make it last a few more years. But if did that then I wouldn't have an excuse to get my FIST quiver.:wink:


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## CM JOAD (Oct 9, 2005)

*Oh, I don't know?*

Take a look. It is probably good that the Angel quiver is getting so much support from "the experts", because I think it would be in big trouble if it had to survive on looks alone, expecially since it is twice the price. Is plastic normally twice the price of leather?


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## Hawksnest88 (Dec 12, 2005)

CM JOAD said:


> Take a look. It is probably good that the Angel quiver is getting so much support from "the experts", because I think it would be in big trouble if it had to survive on looks alone, expecially since it is twice the price. Is plastic normally twice the price of leather?


If I were you (and I'm not) I wouldn't buy one, and I would turn my head away if one was close to me, then it wouldn't hurt.  Isn't that simple? Bill G.


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## CM JOAD (Oct 9, 2005)

Jim Pruitte said:


> This is my opinion, but not an endorsement since they do not sponsor me.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I think an Angel quiver weighs a little over 18 ounces, making it about 8-10 ounces less than a American leather quiver. An average archer, with all equipment, is probably about 200 lbs making the difference in the weight of the two quivers approximately 1/4 of 1 %. Now, am I to believe that 1/4 of 1% of your overall body weight attached to your hip is going to degrade your ability to shoot over the course of a full FITA or Field? I think your car keys and billfold together are close to 8-10 ounces?


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## FtCPhill (Jun 24, 2005)

I would agree that the weight of a quiver is a non-factor to the endurance of an archer. Unless, of course, the quiver weighs 20lbs and has a kite attached to it. However, the _idea_ of having a lightweight quiver could possibly give certain archers a peace of mind that could directly effect thier performance. I for one can feel off my game if my belt isnt postioned in the normal place, or if my hat isnt on straight. None of these things really make a difference, but you can feel mentally stronger if certain parts of your routine are in place. I suppose this can include the knowledge that you have the lightest quiver available to you strapped to your hip.

As with almost all things in this sport, it just comes down to personal preference. What makes _you_ feel good about _your_ routine.


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## CM JOAD (Oct 9, 2005)

FtCPhill said:


> I would agree that the weight of a quiver is a non-factor to the endurance of an archer. Unless, of course, the quiver weighs 20lbs and has a kite attached to it. However, the _idea_ of having a lightweight quiver could possibly give certain archers a peace of mind that could directly effect thier performance. I for one can feel off my game if my belt isnt postioned in the normal place, or if my hat isnt on straight. None of these things really make a difference, but you can feel mentally stronger if certain parts of your routine are in place. I suppose this can include the knowledge that you have the lightest quiver available to you strapped to your hip.
> 
> As with almost all things in this sport, it just comes down to personal preference. What makes _you_ feel good about _your_ routine.


Well said! That is what I have been trying to say in this thread, quite poorly I might add, that like many things in this sport, the effect of the weight of your quiver is mostly "in your mind".


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## Marcus (Jun 19, 2002)

Jim C said:


> There is a reason why more than 2/3 of the 1100 Star Fita or better recurve archers use the Angel


Yep, BBBAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA


Seriously they are nice quivers. The field ones are very cool and if you hit the right colours they look great. 
The neat ones are good but dull and the FIST ones are fine if you want to carry half a cow around with you all day.


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## Jim C (Oct 15, 2002)

Marcus said:


> Yep, BBBAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
> 
> 
> Seriously they are nice quivers. The field ones are very cool and if you hit the right colours they look great.
> The neat ones are good but dull and the FIST ones are fine if you want to carry half a cow around with you all day.



MOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

Another thing-YOU CANNOT GET MAD COW DISEASE FROM AN ANGEL  :wink:


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## Marcus (Jun 19, 2002)

No but you can get Hepititis.  ukey:  

I've shot just about every brand of quiver except Angel and they usually broke within 1-4 years of use. I have a Rawlings(sp?) at the moment and it has lasted well. CM JOAD would like it too because it lacks character.


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## Jim C (Oct 15, 2002)

Marcus said:


> No but you can get Hepititis.  ukey:
> 
> I've shot just about every brand of quiver except Angel and they usually broke within 1-4 years of use. I have a Rawlings(sp?) at the moment and it has lasted well. CM JOAD would like it too because it lacks character.



LOL-funny stuff-Rawlings-they make baseball gloves. Didn't know they made quivers.


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## CM JOAD (Oct 9, 2005)

Marcus said:


> No but you can get Hepititis.  ukey:
> 
> I've shot just about every brand of quiver except Angel and they usually broke within 1-4 years of use. I have a Rawlings(sp?) at the moment and it has lasted well. CM JOAD would like it too because it lacks character.


So what do you mean by that? I lack character because I don't agree with you? Well, at least I have more taste than just what is in my mouth.


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## Marcus (Jun 19, 2002)

No I mean you would like my quiver because it's boring and dull, which appears to be the taste of quiver you are so enthusiastically pushing in this thread. 



MMMMOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO


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## CM JOAD (Oct 9, 2005)

Marcus said:


> No I mean you would like my quiver because it's boring and dull, which appears to be the taste of quiver you are so enthusiastically pushing in this thread.
> 
> 
> 
> MMMMOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO


I believe that "boring" and "dull" subjective terms? A quiver is an object and therefore "objective". "Boring" or "dull" are simply opinionated terms you use to define your own "feelings" for it, not necessarily anyone elses. Subjective terms are not necessarily connected to objective fact.


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## FtCPhill (Jun 24, 2005)

A boring and dull look to some people could be a classic and clean look to others. 

At any rate, its just a bloody quiver. Im still amazed this topic has gotten 2 pages. We should continue the fire just to see how far it can go. 

If an Angel quiver is 'the finest man-made leather', then what sound does an Angel cow make?


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## Jim C (Oct 15, 2002)

FtCPhill said:


> A boring and dull look to some people could be a classic and clean look to others.
> 
> At any rate, its just a bloody quiver. Im still amazed this topic has gotten 2 pages. We should continue the fire just to see how far it can go.
> 
> If an Angel quiver is 'the finest man-made leather', then what sound does an Angel cow make?



I don't know-I can't moo in artificial Japanese:wink:


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## CM JOAD (Oct 9, 2005)

FtCPhill said:


> A boring and dull look to some people could be a classic and clean look to others.
> 
> At any rate, its just a bloody quiver. Im still amazed this topic has gotten 2 pages. We should continue the fire just to see how far it can go.
> 
> If an Angel quiver is 'the finest man-made leather', then what sound does an Angel cow make?


Did you ever drink plastic milk?:darkbeer:


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## CM JOAD (Oct 9, 2005)

Anyone that likes the "home craft" look of the Angel quiver, please let me know. I have a whole drawer full of wolven potholders my daughter made, that you are absolutely going to love! I may even throw in a couple of my grandmother's afghans to really excite you.


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## CM JOAD (Oct 9, 2005)

FtCPhill said:


> A boring and dull look to some people could be a classic and clean look to others.
> 
> At any rate, its just a bloody quiver. Im still amazed this topic has gotten 2 pages. We should continue the fire just to see how far it can go.
> 
> If an Angel quiver is 'the finest man-made leather', then what sound does an Angel cow make?


This typo was on Archery Direct, or was it a typo????

"Superior man-maid leather!"


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## hkim823 (Oct 6, 2004)

Holy cow *MMOOOOOOOOO* y'all get enough cheese with your whine? My goodness.

I looked at the thread when it first popped up, I never thought that this stupid flame war would last for almost a week. It's a quiver. It holds arrows. That's about it. You can obtain objective data about limbs, objective numbers about a quiver? It's pretty damn pointless. 

Personally I like the way the Angel quiver looks. I don't like the way that the traditional Neet, King, and other tube quivers look compared to the angel. Why? There's no reason why. You get what you like. Simple as that.


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## CM JOAD (Oct 9, 2005)

hkim823 said:


> Holy cow *MMOOOOOOOOO* y'all get enough cheese with your whine? My goodness.
> 
> I looked at the thread when it first popped up, I never thought that this stupid flame war would last for almost a week. It's a quiver. It holds arrows. That's about it. You can obtain objective data about limbs, objective numbers about a quiver? It's pretty damn pointless.
> 
> Personally I like the way the Angel quiver looks. I don't like the way that the traditional Neet, King, and other tube quivers look compared to the angel. Why? There's no reason why. You get what you like. Simple as that.


Thank you for your unsolicited opinion. Now, go back to your plastic crafts class.


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## hkim823 (Oct 6, 2004)

CM JOAD said:


> Thank you for your unsolicited opinion. Now, go back to your plastic crafts class.


I was really good at making those friendship bracelets at camp. Maybe I should start a business ..................


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## CM JOAD (Oct 9, 2005)

hkim823 said:


> I was really good at making those friendship bracelets at camp. Maybe I should start a business ..................


As long as your bracelets are "lighter" than standard leather bracelets, you might be on to something...at least among recurve "experts".


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## CM JOAD (Oct 9, 2005)

Marcus said:


> No but you can get Hepititis.  ukey:
> 
> I've shot just about every brand of quiver except Angel and they usually broke within 1-4 years of use. I have a Rawlings(sp?) at the moment and it has lasted well. CM JOAD would like it too because it lacks character.


How do you shoot a quiver? If you are you shooting them with broadheads, I can understand why they might "break". Or are you shooting them "out of the bow". Do they break when they hit the ground?


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## scooby3xs (Dec 3, 2002)

CM Joad,

What is the deal? Gosh everyone has their opinions on what is best for them!

Now you tell me...............does my Angel quiver look "plastic and tacky"? Cause I sure as heck do not think so!

~Scoobs~


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## Jim C (Oct 15, 2002)

CM JOAD said:


> As long as your bracelets are "lighter" than standard leather bracelets, you might be on to something...at least among recurve "experts".



so when is Neet going to sign you up as a staff shooter:wink:


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## centerx (Jun 13, 2002)

It looked GREAT... Untill the little blue bear showed up 

Plus now it's to heavy :wink:


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## scooby3xs (Dec 3, 2002)

Oh centerx - you are just too funny! :wink: :wink:


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## CM JOAD (Oct 9, 2005)

scooby3xs said:


> CM Joad,
> 
> What is the deal? Gosh everyone has their opinions on what is best for them!
> 
> ...


Does it look "plastic"? Yes. Does it look "tacky"? My answer would be too subjective, although the background might be approaching "tacky". Next time, I might suggest a little better background. Your choice on this one doesn't show the Angel quiver in the "best light" As for the quiver, Jim might like the pink. (What about you Eric?)


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## Jim C (Oct 15, 2002)

scooby3xs said:


> CM Joad,
> 
> What is the deal? Gosh everyone has their opinions on what is best for them!
> 
> ...


looks kinda girly though  :wink:


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## scooby3xs (Dec 3, 2002)

CM joad does not even require another comment from me. Pretty sad someone who is 55 acting like a mere teenager. Gosh, I hope you set a better example for your Joad kids!

JimC........yeah didn't you know girly is in this year? :wink: :wink: :tongue:


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## Jim C (Oct 15, 2002)

scooby3xs said:


> CM joad does not even require another comment from me. Pretty sad someone who is 55 acting like a mere teenager. Gosh, I hope you set a better example for your Joad kids!
> 
> JimC........yeah didn't you know girly is in this year? :wink: :wink: :tongue:



Yikes-Vic and Butch in skirts at Nationals?


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## CM JOAD (Oct 9, 2005)

scooby3xs said:


> CM joad does not even require another comment from me. Pretty sad someone who is 55 acting like a mere teenager. Gosh, I hope you set a better example for your Joad kids!
> 
> JimC........yeah didn't you know girly is in this year? :wink: :wink: :tongue:


Define "like a mere teenager"? You have used it in such a condescending way. Are you suggesting that "mere teenagers" are not good examples? Our teenagers ARE good examples. Sorry to hear that you have such a low opinion of your youth. Not only are you down on American Made Products but you are down on American Kids!


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## scooby3xs (Dec 3, 2002)

CM JOAD said:


> Define "like a mere teenager"? You have used it in such a condescending way. Are you suggesting that "mere teenagers" are not good examples? Our teenagers ARE good examples. Sorry to hear that you have such a low opinion of your youth. Not only are you down on American Made Products but you are down on American Kids!


CM Joad - enough with the whine. Never made any incinuation that American kids or any kids in ANY country for that matter were bad examples. For your FYI, I spend A LOT of time with youth in our state in archery and I set a very good example by not being condescending to their equipment or to them as people. Apparently to you, if it is not American or American made it is not good.

Just that I have been reading 3 pages of your whining about a non-American made product not being to your standards. If you do not like it, gosh darn it -don't buy it!


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## Jim C (Oct 15, 2002)

:lock1: :lock1: I think Scooby made a good point to end on


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## Jim Pruitte (May 27, 2002)

Jim C said:


> :lock1: :lock1: I think Scooby made a good point to end on


I concur.


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## CM JOAD (Oct 9, 2005)

scooby3xs said:


> CM Joad - enough with the whine. Never made any incinuation that American kids or any kids in ANY country for that matter were bad examples. For your FYI, I spend A LOT of time with youth in our state in archery and I set a very good example by not being condescending to their equipment or to them as people. Apparently to you, if it is not American or American made it is not good.
> 
> Just that I have been reading 3 pages of your whining about a non-American made product not being to your standards. If you do not like it, gosh darn it -don't buy it!


No one is questioning the amount of time you spend with youth. I was questioning your attitude toward your youth. You can say what you want now, but "Pretty sad someone who is 55 acting like a 'mere' teenager" is by most definitions quite condiscending. Unless of course, you meant it as a compliment? 

And what is with this "whine" stuff. The definition of whine is, a prolonged high-pitched cry expressive of distress of pain" Am I writing too loud for you? Am I to take from this that you believe that any opinions other than yours is "whining". You must be a real treat at a cocktail party? 

By the way, FYI means "For Your Information", so you don't need to prefice it by saying "For your". That is simply repetition...but then, enough of my "whining".


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## CM JOAD (Oct 9, 2005)

Jim C said:


> :lock1: :lock1: I think Scooby made a good point to end on


You guys are certainly free to leave. I think that I carry on just fine without you. Unless of course that there is an "unwritten rule" that if "the experts" are not part of chat, the chat MUST close....

Now are you leaving for sure...or can you be enticed back? I really don't know how I can go on without your words of wisdom.


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## Jim Pruitte (May 27, 2002)

CM JOAD said:


> You guys are certainly free to leave. I think that I carry on just fine without you. Unless of course that there is an "unwritten rule" that if "the experts" are not part of chat, the chat MUST close....
> 
> Now are you leaving for sure...or can you be enticed back? I really don't know how I can go on without your words of wisdom.


Did someone go and dig up the dude from Minnesota?? What was his name.... hammer??


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## CM JOAD (Oct 9, 2005)

Jim Pruitte said:


> Did someone go and dig up the dude from Minnesota?? What was his name.... hammer??


Here kitty, kitty, kitty.


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## Marcus (Jun 19, 2002)

CM JOAD said:


> How do you shoot a quiver? If you are you shooting them with broadheads, I can understand why they might "break". Or are you shooting them "out of the bow". Do they break when they hit the ground?


Sorry Princess let me clarify. 

"I have shot arrows from my various bows while wearing at seperate times quite a number of quivers and all have broken within 1-4 years. 
Usually they tear at the top of the quiver where the belt hooks though. "

All these quivers were American made and at no time did I whine over their quality or looks. 

Now run back to your JOAD class Princess and leave the discussions to the people who know something about archery. 

Now for CM Joad's reply:
:lalala: :deadhorse :drama:


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## CM JOAD (Oct 9, 2005)

Marcus said:


> Sorry Princess let me clarify.
> 
> "I have shot arrows from my various bows while wearing at seperate times quite a number of quivers and all have broken within 1-4 years.
> Usually they tear at the top of the quiver where the belt hooks though. "
> ...


That little bit of satire kind of went over your head didn't it Marcus? I suppose a 5'-10" lots of things go "over your head". Well, thanks for the explanation anyway. Nobody has ever accused self-proclaimed archery "experts" as being geniuses.

It is interesting though, all of a sudden you have been emboldened to start calling me names. Why do you suppose that is? Maybe, because you saw one of those other "geniuses" doing the same thing and you really desire to be just like them. Can you say Baaaaaaa? 

What have I said to you that deserves your personal attacks? It is quite common in American politics that if a "lefty" can't keep up with the argument, to start personal attacks. No need to explain. Don't want to stress you too much.

Define "whining" and how may opinion is a whine and yours isn't? If this is too tough, you may wish to ask one of your "role models" first.


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## FtCPhill (Jun 24, 2005)

scooby3xs said:


> ...Just that I have been reading 3 pages of your whining about a non-American made product not being to your standards. If you do not like it, gosh darn it -don't buy it!



I could be wrong here, but I think the point that CM is trying to make has soemthing to do with the notion that certain people consider themselves experts on archery and therefore have a _more_ valid opinion on something as pointless quiver preference. Now, we all know that opinions are the same as elbows since everyone has a couple, and we also know that no one opinion is more valid than the next guy's. Also, we know that quiver preference is *ONLY* a matter of opinion; there is no reason to chose one over the other based on anything but opinion (unless, again, one quiver weighs 20lbs and has a kite attached to it). 

I think a statement made earlier in regards to how 1100+ shooters choose Angel for some particular reason may have come across to some as egocentric. The notion that your level of 'archery knowledge' makes your opinion of quiver choice more valid somehow is probalby what has CM rubbed the wrong way. 

I would tend to agree with him, however it is just a bloody quiver. In all honesty wouldnt we all be happy with a plastic tube strapped to our belt as long as we could shoot? Isn't the point of these boards to share ideas? We should not be here to invalidate the opinions of others based on our own 'expertise' (one way or the other) or to make personal offenses when someone is strong about a contrary opinion. This thread has gone way off track IMO. 

/end rant


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## scooby3xs (Dec 3, 2002)

FtCPhill said:


> I could be wrong here, but I think the point that CM is trying to make has soemthing to do with the notion that certain people consider themselves experts on archery and therefore have a _more_ valid opinion on something as pointless quiver preference. Now, we all know that opinions are the same as elbows since everyone has a couple, and we also know that no one opinion is more valid than the next guy's. Also, we know that quiver preference is *ONLY* a matter of opinion; there is no reason to chose one over the other based on anything but opinion (unless, again, one quiver weighs 20lbs and has a kite attached to it).
> 
> I think a statement made earlier in regards to how 1100+ shooters choose Angel for some particular reason may have come across to some as egocentric. The notion that your level of 'archery knowledge' makes your opinion of quiver choice more valid somehow is probalby what has CM rubbed the wrong way.
> 
> ...


FTCPhill,

You are absolutely right - a quiver is a quiver and having a plastic tube strapped to our belt or just carrying our arrows in our back pocket would suffice just as well. I do not proclaim to be the world's "expert" on anything but I have been around the block shooting for over 26 years and am a nationally ranked FITA archer - again which does not classify me as an "expert" but someone who has seen a lot of product over the years.

I have used a Neet quiver way back in the 80's - it was a decent quiver. My PERSONAL choice over the last few years has been an Angel due to reputation, quality and color - not cause I am a very good shooter. I do not knock anyone's opinion on any product - as long as it is working for them - hey enjoy! Majority of my equipment I do shoot from my bow to my v-bar connect is made overseas. Do I knock the American way for not shooting an American made bow? By all means - no way.

I agree this thread has gotten way off track.

~Scoobs~


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## Huntmaster (Jan 30, 2003)

FtCPhill said:


> I would tend to agree with him, however it is just a bloody quiver. In all honesty wouldnt we all be happy with a plastic tube strapped to our belt as long as we could shoot?
> /end rant


I don't think it'd work. Then the kids wouldn't have anywhere to put the rocks they pick up along the course 

I'll chime in on the Neet quivers here. I've had my N-TL-400 for about 12 years now. Cub1's been shooting the smaller version 401 for about 7 years now. I know for a fact that hers has plenty of room for pretty rocks :wink: and is still going strong. Thick cordura is the key...they'll never wear out.


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## FtCPhill (Jun 24, 2005)

Ah yes, the Neet quivers have also worked well for me. I used the same one for about 10years before the hip-pocket tore off. This could have been partly due to the fact that I used to have a bad habit of throwing my figner tab into the pocket when I wasn't shooting well...

...or perhaps it was the shiny rocks I kept in it :tongue:


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## scooby3xs (Dec 3, 2002)

FtCPhill said:


> I used to have a bad habit of throwing my figner tab into the pocket when I wasn't shooting well...


Now Phil......if you are planning on shooting nationals in the Springs this summer I certainly do not want to see any tab throwin' LOL :wink: :wink: 

~Scoobs~


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## FtCPhill (Jun 24, 2005)

Nah, the only thing I throw back now when I'm off my game is a few beers.:darkbeer:

Or Gatorade, whichever the situation requires.


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## CM JOAD (Oct 9, 2005)

FtCPhill said:


> I could be wrong here, but I think the point that CM is trying to make has soemthing to do with the notion that certain people consider themselves experts on archery and therefore have a _more_ valid opinion on something as pointless quiver preference. Now, we all know that opinions are the same as elbows since everyone has a couple, and we also know that no one opinion is more valid than the next guy's. Also, we know that quiver preference is *ONLY* a matter of opinion; there is no reason to chose one over the other based on anything but opinion (unless, again, one quiver weighs 20lbs and has a kite attached to it).
> 
> I think a statement made earlier in regards to how 1100+ shooters choose Angel for some particular reason may have come across to some as egocentric. The notion that your level of 'archery knowledge' makes your opinion of quiver choice more valid somehow is probalby what has CM rubbed the wrong way.
> 
> ...


Phill,

You are doing a much better job of defining my point than I have been able to do. Would you mind if I run all my "comments" past you before I actually post them? 

It was also my "point" to show how quickly a simple product discussion can turn into condiscention and personal name calling. Now this is probably a good place for the use of the word "SAD".

I appreciate everyone's participation in this little demonstration. I hope that everyone (and you know who you are) will join me in taking this opportunity to learn, and strive to do a better job of communicating and contributing next time.


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## FtCPhill (Jun 24, 2005)

I would be glad to peruse over your posts, or anyone elses, for that matter. I will PM you with my paypal info, as I do require a hefty 'donation' for such services :eyebrows: 

All I ask is that noone make any shots at the weight or construction of my posts.


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## CM JOAD (Oct 9, 2005)

FtCPhill said:


> I would be glad to peruse over your posts, or anyone elses, for that matter. I will PM you with my paypal info, as I do require a hefty 'donation' for such services :eyebrows:
> 
> All I ask is that noone make any shots at the weight or construction of my posts.


As long as there is a money back guarantee for anything you say that the "experts" and "expert wannabees" don't like!

Also, how would you define "peruse"?


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## Jim C (Oct 15, 2002)

FtCPhill said:


> I could be wrong here, but I think the point that CM is trying to make has soemthing to do with the notion that certain people consider themselves experts on archery and therefore have a _more_ valid opinion on something as pointless quiver preference. Now, we all know that opinions are the same as elbows since everyone has a couple, and we also know that no one opinion is more valid than the next guy's. Also, we know that quiver preference is *ONLY* a matter of opinion; there is no reason to chose one over the other based on anything but opinion (unless, again, one quiver weighs 20lbs and has a kite attached to it).
> 
> 
> /end rant



as to quivers-you have a good point but let me say something I have been thinking about along time:

a friend of mine (former US top 15 recurve shooter and a two time national field champ) noted that one of the problems with boards such as these is the populist attitude that not only is everyone is entitled to an opinion but EACH OPINION has equal merit or validity

HORSEPOOP. A year or so ago, some mother and her son claimed that junior had shot 60X on a fita indoor with a compound. I SAID BS. a bunch of people on this board got their shorts in a knot and claimed that we couldn't dispute it and our opinion was no better than those who said the kid did it. JIM DESPART jumped in and noted that in all his years (this is a guy who used to go a YEAR without missing an NFAA X in competition) he had only shot one 60X and that was in practice so he called BS too

sorry folks-but the OPINION of a vegas, world and NFAA champion on a compound indoor score has ALOT MORE MERIT than the opinion of someone who has never even shot a 300 NFAA game. George Tekmitchov's (gt) opinion on how an arrow works has far more MERIT than someone who is a recreational backyhard archer and Marcus Annear's opinion on the worth of an X10 arrow for FITA means far more to me than someone who purely bowhunts.

The populist attitude that if your unlearned opinion is not treated with the same respect as say Vittorios or Joe M's or Dave Cousins it means that others are insulting you is nonsense as well. Unfortunately, too many people here get their noses bent out of shape when they say something that is "unlearned" or contrary to experience and get called on it.

on some issues-there is no RIGHT opinion (for example-is a blue quiver prettier than a red one) in other cases there are competing valid opinions (aim consciously or subconsciously) or "expand through the clicker or push (ie Frangilli-THE HERETIC ARCHER). however, if someone has never shot a 1000 level fita were to argue with Vittorio on clicker control, I wouldn't waste much time listening to someone who is unlearned. IF the argument is between Frangilli and Lee or Rabska and Cardinale, then you will learn by listening to both sides of the argument


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## VanillaGorilla (Jul 22, 2005)

I can't believe this has gone this far over a quiver. Is this fueled by the fact that the Angel quiver is: 1.) Not American made 2.) Popular/fashionable 3.) Costs more 4.) People buy it? 
How can you argue over the preferences of others?

I personally don't like the look of the Angel quiver, therefore I don't intend on ever buying one. That's all I need to say about it. My decision isn't motivated by who makes it, who uses it or how much it costs. It's simply that I don't like the way it looks. I wish the weight of my quiver was all I had to worry about where my archery is concerned. I'll buy American-made if I find something that meets my criteria. Everyone has different criteria. I'm not going to throw all that to the wayside just so I can buy American. If I did, in most cases, I'd be nothing more than a patriot buying inferior products.


:deadhorse


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## FtCPhill (Jun 24, 2005)

Jim, 
I agree with you whole-heartedly that the more experienced archer/coach provides better input and knowledge on alot of things. You are also right in stating that message boards produce an atmosphere where everyone feels that their opinion is right, regardless of reality in some cases. However, this is the nature of the beast, so to speak, and it is doubly important to make sure your thoughts are very clearly stated when posting here as to avoid thread de-railments such as this. I must emphasize though that insulting, name calling, or 'talking down' to people that have un-learned or flat wrong ideas should not be a first response, as is so often the case in message boards like this. Such actions should only be reserved for the most special of [email protected]$$es. I am not saying this particularly in response to what people have said in this thread, but as a general statement of message boards liek this one. 

After reflection, I think Perhaps I should have been more specific and clear by stating that in matters such as quiver choice an opinion is *JUST* an opinion. I honestly don't see how extensive archery knowledge can give you _better_ insight on quiver choice when applied to someone other than yourself. IMO, your opinion on quiver choice would be in the same realm as best socks for shooting, best bow color, best string color, best scope, best tripod, etc. These things are all a matter of personal preference, regardless of experience.

In conclusion, I would still like to know what sound an Angel cow makes!!


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## Jim Pruitte (May 27, 2002)

FtCPhill said:


> Jim,
> I honestly don't see how extensive archery knowledge can give you _better_ insight on quiver choice when applied to someone other than yourself. IMO, your opinion on quiver choice would be in the same realm as best socks for shooting, best bow color, best string color, best scope, best tripod, etc. These things are all a matter of personal preference, regardless of experience.
> 
> In conclusion, I would still like to know what sound an Angel cow makes!!


Phil... When someone is going to put down hard earned money for something, then yes... it is good to hear from someone with more experience regarding a product that they do like and why they like it. Whether that comes from me or someone else with experience doesn't really matter. I simply stated the reasons why I liked it.

As far as what sound a Angle cow makes.... It's a holy moo....


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## CM JOAD (Oct 9, 2005)

Jim C said:


> as to quivers-you have a good point but let me say something I have been thinking about along time:
> 
> a friend of mine (former US top 15 recurve shooter and a two time national field champ) noted that one of the problems with boards such as these is the populist attitude that not only is everyone is entitled to an opinion but EACH OPINION has equal merit or validity
> 
> ...


Everyone has an equal right to have an opinion. Everyone has an equal right to express their opinion. Everyone has an equal right to develop an argument which supports their opinion. Everyone has a an equal right to agree or disagree with how well each opinion has been supported. Therefore, each opinion should have equal MERIT and RESPECT until the supporting evidence proves otherwise. That is how basic debate works.

How it doesn't work is if one party believes that they have a greater right to express their opinion because who they think they are or what they have done. If a person is more knowledgeble or more experienced, their argument should be well supported and therefore will be believed by more people. They should not expect to be "believed" simply based on their perceived value of who they "think" they are or their perceived value of what they have done. 

Opinions are opinions. You agree with the argument or you don't. No where does this give one party the right to belittle and namecall the other person simply based on their own perceived importance. I imagine that quite often individuals of perceived value get upset because the can't understand why others "of less value" won't simply agree with them because of "who they are".

There are lots of times that individuals of self-proclamed importance "don't know what they don't know" and aren't willing to admit that may they don't know. That is why it is often good to wait until you have seen the "argument" before prejudging. That is why you have two ears and one mouth. Maybe we should be listening twice as much as we talk.

If you prejudge an opinion's MERIT simply based on perceived value of individual with the opinion, and are not willing to consider other opinions, you are in fact unwilling to learn anything new and are therefore "arrogant". The least you can do is give me the benefit of the doubt that I can make my own decision based on the arguments that have been presented before me.

If a cow get's wet, does it leave a "stain mark down your leg"


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## FtCPhill (Jun 24, 2005)

Jim Pruitte said:


> Phil... When someone is going to put down hard earned money for something, then yes... it is good to hear from someone with more experience regarding a product that they do like and why they like it. Whether that comes from me or someone else with experience doesn't really matter. I simply stated the reasons why I liked it.
> 
> As far as what sound a Angle cow makes.... It's a holy moo....


You are right. It _is_ nice to hear from someone with experience regarding a particular product. When it comes to dropping the dough on expensive equipment any input is nice. The issue that popped up in this thread, if i remember correctly, was when one person perceived that another person was laying down their opinion as gospel, so to speak. I was simply trying to clarify this concern, that on further thought should probably best be hashed out in its own thread. Rather than de-railing a simple thread asking for advice.

EDIT: This thread gets my vote for biggest de-railment. Going from a question about quivers to a debate about the mertis of opinions vs. fact in relation to knowledge is a huge jump.


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## Jim C (Oct 15, 2002)

In a court of law, normally witnesses cannot put forth opinions. There is an exception-that is in the case of experts. That was the point I was making-and that I personally will value the opinion of an expert over the lay opinion of someone who has no such credentials. I value say Reo or Joe M's opinion on how to best prepare for a field shoot over someone who has never been to the world field tournament or let alone, has never even shot one

same concept here

nothing more nothing less and we might ask ourselves why so few real pros post on AT any more


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## FtCPhill (Jun 24, 2005)

haha, the real pros are busy practicing instead of reading message boards.


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## CM JOAD (Oct 9, 2005)

Jim C said:


> In a court of law, normally witnesses cannot put forth opinions. There is an exception-that is in the case of experts. That was the point I was making-and that I personally will value the opinion of an expert over the lay opinion of someone who has no such credentials. I value say Reo or Joe M's opinion on how to best prepare for a field shoot over someone who has never been to the world field tournament or let alone, has never even shot one
> 
> same concept here
> 
> nothing more nothing less and we might ask ourselves why so few real pros post on AT any more


We all have the right to "value" someone's opinion. We do not have the right to devalue a "individual" based on our valuation of their opinion.

There are probably few Pro's on here because they "know they know" and leave the posts to those that "think they know". There is an old saying, "Those that can, do. Those that can't, teach"


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## Serious Fun (May 12, 2003)

*USAT and JR USAT Quiver Sponsors*

In the big picture, I appreciate the quiver sponsors of USAT and Jr USAT.
Angel, Guy Gerig
AIM, Aurora quiver, Eric Hall 
Lancaster Archery Supply, Cordovan USAT Quiver, Rob Kaufhold
Neet Products, 45% off, Brenda Eichholz
They and all the other sponsors help to grow archery by rewarding achievement.


This is an entertaining thread, it makes me smile.
As a red shirt that sits near the shooting line and walks to and from the targets to officiate, I see all sorts of dress and equipment.
Shoes, socks, pants, shirts, rain gear, glasses, hats, finger slings and yes…quivers.
The brand, style or materials an archer wears doesn’t seem to hinder my ability to officiate.
Just thought you would want to know how it affects me.


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## Huntmaster (Jan 30, 2003)

Serious Fun said:


> The brand, style or materials an archer wears doesn’t seem to hinder my ability to officiate.
> Just thought you would want to know how it affects me.


Even if it ends up in your car before the tournament is over?:wink: 

So much for buying extra points :zip:


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## CM JOAD (Oct 9, 2005)

Huntmaster said:


> Even if it ends up in your car before the tournament is over?:wink:
> 
> So much for buying extra points :zip:


At least if "it" is a few ounces lighter, you won't get as tired walking to your car!


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## Jim C (Oct 15, 2002)

FtCPhill said:


> haha, the real pros are busy practicing instead of reading message boards.



actually, when I started on this board, there were numerous postings by top pros. JDES, GRIV,Reo, Dee, Cousins, gt etc. Having talked to more than a few of them, one of the reasons why some don't post here anymore they got tired of people who really didnt have any expertise challenging stuff they said
and for some they just got tired of the BS


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## baldmountain (Apr 21, 2003)

Jim C said:


> actually, when I started on this board, there were numerous postings by top pros. JDES, GRIV,Reo, Dee, Cousins, gt etc. Having talked to more than a few of them, one of the reasons why some don't post here anymore they got tired of people who really didnt have any expertise challenging stuff they said
> and for some they just got tired of the BS


Yup! And not to sell stuff. They'd answer just about any question and were open to discussions. God knows, they answered a TON of my stupid questions. They'd even chat on the phone for a couple hours as long as you paid for the call.


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## FtCPhill (Jun 24, 2005)

Jim C said:


> actually, when I started on this board, there were numerous postings by top pros. JDES, GRIV,Reo, Dee, Cousins, gt etc. Having talked to more than a few of them, one of the reasons why some don't post here anymore they got tired of people who really didnt have any expertise challenging stuff they said
> and for some they just got tired of the BS



A sad phenomenon, but quite common on message boards that deal with sports/games/hobbies.

EDIT: oh yay, 4 pages now


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## CM JOAD (Oct 9, 2005)

Jim C said:


> actually, when I started on this board, there were numerous postings by top pros. JDES, GRIV,Reo, Dee, Cousins, gt etc. Having talked to more than a few of them, one of the reasons why some don't post here anymore they got tired of people who really didnt have any expertise challenging stuff they said
> and for some they just got tired of the BS


Maybe some of the challengers didn't feel the "important people" were as important as they are constantly being told that they are? Maybe the "know it alls" didn't feel "appreciated" and their feeling were hurt?

Maybe there should be a separate catagory for all those archers that feel they "know it all" and are only interested in talking, not listening. Rules would be that all the rest of us could just watch all the "know it alls" stroke themselves and pat themselves on the back? Periodically, one us "lesser folk" could say something, so that the "know it alls" could tell us how stupid we are?


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## CM JOAD (Oct 9, 2005)

baldmountain said:


> Yup! And not to sell stuff. They'd answer just about any question and were open to discussions. God knows, they answered a TON of my stupid questions. They'd even chat on the phone for a couple hours as long as you paid for the call.


Isn't that the same as a "900" number?


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## Jim C (Oct 15, 2002)

CM JOAD said:


> Maybe some of the challengers didn't feel the "important people" were as important as they are constantly being told that they are? Maybe the "know it alls" feeling were hurt?
> 
> Maybe there should be a separate catagory for all those archers that feel they "know it all" and are only interested in talking, not listening. Rules would be that all the rest of us could just watch all the "know it alls" stroke themselves and pat themselves on the back? Periodically, one us "lesser folk" could say something, so that the "know it alls" could tell us how stupid we are?


actually, since I bothered talking to a few of them-its more like newbies who got their panties in a bunch when a pro would correct some nonsense that was spewed by the unknowing.


The funniest was watching some guy try to tell gt how an X10 arrow works out of a recurve


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## CM JOAD (Oct 9, 2005)

Jim C said:


> actually, since I bothered talking to a few of them-its more like newbies who got their panties in a bunch when a pro would correct some nonsense that was spewed by the unknowing.
> 
> 
> The funniest was watching some guy try to tell gt how an X10 arrow works out of a recurve


Boy, that is funny stuff! (stroke) You are definitely a hoot! (stroke) You definitely know your humor! (stroke)

Wait a minute? Isn't that Jim C? I thought he was leaving this thread? I appreciate that he is back, because I was afraid we wouldn't be able to go on without him. Thanks for coming back, Jim. I was lost without your knowledge. I miss you telling me how dumb I am.

----------- One of the unknowing.


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## Jim C (Oct 15, 2002)

CM JOAD said:


> Boy, that is funny stuff! (stroke) You are definitely a hoot! (stroke) You definitely know your humor! (stroke)
> 
> ----------- One of the unknowing.


Its alot funnier if you actually understand the subject matter:wink:


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## CM JOAD (Oct 9, 2005)

Jim C said:


> Its alot funnier if you actually understand the subject matter:wink:


Boy, you got me there Jimbo! That 'ol "I know more than you stuff" just cracks me up. Good shot about my lack of "understanding". Hit me again, master! Hit me again! Tell me more about your vast experience and how I should "learn from the master". Maybe you could even "drop a name" once in a while.


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## Jim C (Oct 15, 2002)

CM JOAD said:


> Boy, you got me there Jimbo! That 'ol "I know more than you stuff" just cracks me up. Good shot about my lack of "understanding". Hit me again, master! Hit me again! Tell me more about your vast experience and how I should "learn from the master". Maybe you could even "drop a name" once in a while.


\
I DUB THEE *BLACK KNIGHT* I ride off and you have won the field

Sincerely

King Arthur (as played by Graham Chapman)


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## CM JOAD (Oct 9, 2005)

Jim C said:


> \
> I DUB THEE *BLACK KNIGHT* I ride off and you have won the field
> 
> Sincerely
> ...


May your journey be a kind one!


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## baldmountain (Apr 21, 2003)

CM JOAD said:


> Maybe some of the challengers didn't feel the "important people" were as important as they are constantly being told that they are? Maybe the "know it alls" didn't feel "appreciated" and their feeling were hurt?
> 
> Maybe there should be a separate catagory for all those archers that feel they "know it all" and are only interested in talking, not listening. Rules would be that all the rest of us could just watch all the "know it alls" stroke themselves and pat themselves on the back? Periodically, one us "lesser folk" could say something, so that the "know it alls" could tell us how stupid we are?


A perfect example of why they left.

I think I'm done too...


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## CM JOAD (Oct 9, 2005)

baldmountain said:


> A perfect example of why they left.
> 
> I think I'm done too...


I don't know what to say? Without some guidance from Jim C, I don't think that I am qualified enough to comment. I am sure that it is "people like me" that pushed "them" away. Maybe they left because they are smart enough to know that it is a big waste of time? And now I am saddled with the pressure that YOU might leave too. How can I go on?


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## RecordKeeper (May 9, 2003)

I think this thread has lived on long enough 

:wink:


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