# indoor arrow weight / spine / accuracy



## pherrley (Jan 24, 2015)

I’m thinking about trying some new arrows for indoor. The only arrows I’ve ever shot are the arrows I’m shooting right now. Full length 2712’s with 300gr points (750gr). Last year I was listening to something after Sergio Pagni won Vegas. Sergio apparently shoots a “light” arrow to decrease string time and lessen the chance of him inducing something on the arrow after release. 

I kind of want to try a light arrow, but its hard to sift through all the vudu about needing the right arrow spine. Gold Tips 27/64 arrows have a 150 spine, there is no way anyone is getting close the correct spine with those. Or recurve bows shooting 23xx arrows. 

Has anyone tried different point weight and actually found a measureable difference in score? Or do most people just do what I do, and follow the crowd? Has anyone heard of quantifiable rule of thumb for arrow weight / string time (maybe its significant, maybe insignificant)?


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## cbrunson (Oct 25, 2010)

I've shot full length 2712s with 300gr, same cut to 30" with 250, and GT Triple Xs cut to 27" with 150gr and 200gr points. 29" DL at 55 lbs off of a blade rest. I've shot several 27-30x Vegas games with all of them. If anything, I think the shorter, stiffer ones are easier to tune, and I've shot a little higher average with them.


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## britts1s (Mar 23, 2016)

I think there is merit in having the arrow spine to match your bow when it comes to forgiveness. You are correct in the statement that GT's and some other carbon 27/64 arrows are so stiff that you can't break the spine down even with 250 -300 grain points. Black Eagle Magnums and PS26 shafts seem to be the exception and you can get them in 250 to 400 spine. These arrows should tune with more standard tip weights. 

While it is not the same as keeping track of scoring averages over a long period of time, I have played around quite a bit shooting my full length Victory NVX 27 200 spine arrows with 225 grain tips through paper. The one thing I can tell you for sure is a super stiff arrow is ultra sensitive to grip position, pressure and form. Any slight grip misalignment (torqueing) and you get a 1/2 inch or more nock right or left tear. Grab a proper spined 23/64 arrow and I get perfect bullet holes every time. I found this so intriguing I have probably shot these arrows through paper 300+ times just to get an idea of what grip these arrows liked or disliked and how bad the tear was with sloppy form. It also showed my that my form is far from perfect each and every shot. I have even used two bows for this testing, Mathews Halon X and Prime STX 39. Both exhibit the same behavior although the Halon X seems to be more sensitive. I was just curious to see how form variations affected these stiff arrows and the results really surprised me. 

With the 4 and 5 inch feathers most use on these arrows the knock left or right launch is more than likely damped out in first 15-20 feet and probably is not noticeable accuracy wise for most of us amateurs.


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## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

Been shooting gold tip xxx in a variety of lengths and point weights for years, two seasons ago I set out to nail down what setup I wanted to stick with. It ended up being a 30 inch shaft and 250 grain points with 4 inch helical feathers. 

My arrows don't miss the x for no reason, my arrows miss when I leave the x and the bow fires. That has always been true with them, they hit where the sight pin is at when the bow fires. It hasn't mattered if they were full length or cut to 27 inches either, they still hit where the pin is at. 

Now, I do prefer this current setup over any of the ones I have used in the past. The arrows weigh 650 grains I believe and at 58 to 60 lbs they produce a perfect indoor speed that is very nice not to fast or slow. They are beyond tough and regardless of the bales they do the job and never have issues. 

I would be careful thinking that you can build something that gives you the ability to do weird stuff like twist the bow or have poor pin float and the arrow will magically hit the middle. Forgiveness is a weird thing.

For me forgiveness in my arrows is the fact that all of them are group tuned to the same hole accuracy with a hooter shooter so that I am not needing to be so perfect with my shooting to keep the poor arrows in the x. That is forgiveness that I can rely on but if you are hoping that your arrows are going to magically soak up a jerk or twist of the riser or things like this and still hit the x you are probably chasing something that doesn't exist.


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## pherrley (Jan 24, 2015)

Did either of you do any bare shaft tuning? I assume if a "stiffer" arrow is tearing with poor bow hand position it could throw off a bare shaft. 

I've done a little reading and Tim Gillingham on GT website suggests that an arrow with higher FOC will bare shaft tune easier, and therefore lower FOC may need more steering (more fletching). Since wind and drag aren't a concern for indoor, low FOC shouldn't be an issue for a fletched arrow?


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## cbrunson (Oct 25, 2010)

pherrley said:


> Did either of you do any bare shaft tuning? I assume if a "stiffer" arrow is tearing with poor bow hand position it could throw off a bare shaft.
> 
> I've done a little reading and Tim Gillingham on GT website suggests that an arrow with higher FOC will bare shaft tune easier, and therefore lower FOC may need more steering (more fletching). Since wind and drag aren't a concern for indoor, low FOC shouldn't be an issue for a fletched arrow?


Induced hand torque changes the position relationship between the rest and the sight. It changes the tune very slightly, but I don't think nearly as much as the relationship between those two.


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## grantmac (May 31, 2007)

Torque tuning helps with this. Once I have the fletched hitting together regardless of torque then I'll try bareshafts. I find if I tune with rest position instead of moving the sight then I get a closer result.


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## pherrley (Jan 24, 2015)

you guys are talking me out of buying these, which is probably a good thing. If I'm getting what you're all saying; arrow weight and spine for indoors doesn't matter. How do you choose an indoor arrow? Why would someone buy GT Triple X for $12.50 / ea, instead of X27's for $9.42 / ea if there is no difference in performance?


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## cbrunson (Oct 25, 2010)

Both are great arrows. I shot the X27s for a few years, and decided to try the Triple Xs this year. The one edge I will give to the GTs, is the FACT system. Its real handy changing point weight without having to remove tips.


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## erdman41 (May 6, 2009)

pherrley said:


> Why would someone buy GT Triple X for $12.50 / ea, instead of X27's for $9.42 / ea if there is no difference in performance?


My XXX's are going through their 3rd indoor season. Probably wouldn't happen with aluminum.


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## pherrley (Jan 24, 2015)

cbrunson said:


> Both are great arrows. I shot the X27s for a few years, and decided to try the Triple Xs this year. The one edge I will give to the GTs, is the FACT system. Its real handy changing point weight without having to remove tips.


For indoor, how did you choose that point weight or why would you change it?


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## cbrunson (Oct 25, 2010)

pherrley said:


> For indoor, how did you choose that point weight or why would you change it?


Experimenting. I've noticed less difference with point weight, than shaft length.


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## pherrley (Jan 24, 2015)

erdman41 said:


> My XXX's are going through their 3rd indoor season. Probably wouldn't happen with aluminum.


Good point, I didn't consider that. 

I looked in to this briefly and read a funny saying. "carbon has two states; straight and broken"


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## erdman41 (May 6, 2009)

pherrley said:


> Good point, I didn't consider that.
> 
> I looked in to this briefly and read a funny saying. "carbon has two states; straight and broken"


Straight, broken, and cracked/about to become broken.


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## Bobmuley (Jan 14, 2004)

I think in the long run the carbons end up being cheaper. I've been an aluminum shooter for a long time, but even dropping a 2712 on gravel has caused a dent, or let someone else pull your arrows and you'll likely end up with a bent one. 

Best thing about the aluminums is consistency between arrows over several years (but really how important is this with a new bow every year or every other year?).


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## grantmac (May 31, 2007)

High volume shooting into compressed straw bales will wear a 2712 out in a season. I've seen guys spine test them from the package then as the season progresses and they really do start to wear out right away.
Carbon is cheaper in the long run.


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## Rick! (Aug 10, 2008)

grantmac said:


> High volume shooting into compressed straw bales will wear a 2712 out in a season. I've seen guys spine test them from the package then as the season progresses and they really do start to wear out right away.
> Carbon is cheaper in the long run.


The same is true for fatties that use woven CF rather than all longitudinal fibers. I probably have over 12-14,000 shots on my X27s and they are good enough to hit the same hole out of a shooter at 20yds so they're coming to Vegas with me. I don't shoot them into straw but sometimes shoot into excelsior bales and have seen no changes in them.

You can also twist off a XXX if no lube is used and you stick it into the center of a new round foam butt so you can find negatives about any arrow if you ask enough folks.

I think they both cost nearly the same as CAP points aren't cheap for the X27s nor is 4 different bottles of fletching glue and 2 different types of vanes to find the right recipe for keeping them stuck to aluminum. X27s come with bushings and nocks, XXXs bushings or pin bushings and nocks are extra.

Like cbrunson said, the weight system on GT points makes for fast and easy changes to see how they get along with your shooting.

The biggest difference I notice between the two is the sound they make as they leave the bow - a hollow thunk with the XXX's and virtually silent with the X27s.

On the X27s, I'd throw away the "stock" nocks and get something better, or at least two other different flavors and play with them.

pherrley, don't let a few $ get in the way of your arrow choice - just be ok with your choice and get them tuned up before April 1.


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## pherrley (Jan 24, 2015)

Rick! said:


> pherrley, don't let a few $ get in the way of your arrow choice - just be ok with your choice and get them tuned up before April 1.


haha, I assume you're talking about Mn state indoor shoot. If I shoot like I did last year, there isn't an arrow in existence that can save me. I'll be shooting MFS Flights, maybe I'll see you there


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## rooster61 (Apr 1, 2003)

I have not found any issues with aluminum 2712's wearing out, bending, or breaking down. 

I have a shooting machine, and out if it, I have shot 10 year old 2712's alongside brand new ones. They all hit together in a hole about the size of a dime. 

Wear might be a problem if you are shooting a single spot.


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## caspian (Jan 13, 2009)

I gave up on alloy shafts, they are cheap and work well initially but take minor bends too easily. I stuck with X7s until Easton produced a max WA legal carbon shaft and switched to Carbon Triumphs, been quite happy with them. Easton also make a very reasonably priced 200gn point which means not paying a bomb for propoints.


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## pherrley (Jan 24, 2015)

I shot a 300/55X today for practice. One of the misses I dipped out of the middle and hit where I was aiming. The other 4 I wasn't quite sure, and thought I might have been sighted in high. I track my shots with the My Targets app, and all 4 misses were high and the #6 arrow. I took #6 arrow out of my quiver and shot clean for the next 10 ends. 

I ended up buying some GT triple Xs, so I'll probably give those a shot.


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## Hoover388 (Oct 28, 2016)

After shooting my triple X's with 150 up front, and stuffing bare shafts into the same hole at 20yds, I've come to the personal conclusion that ultra stiff spine is just fine for me and my indoor bow.


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## id450 (Jun 10, 2014)

pherrley said:


> I shot a 300/55X today for practice. One of the misses I dipped out of the middle and hit where I was aiming. The other 4 I wasn't quite sure, and thought I might have been sighted in high. I track my shots with the My Targets app, and all 4 misses were high and the #6 arrow. I took #6 arrow out of my quiver and shot clean for the next 10 ends.
> 
> I ended up buying some GT triple Xs, so I'll probably give those a shot.


I never realized there was a app for keeping track. The one u use appears to be android only? 

Foes any one recommend one for I phone? It appears there are several options out there. 


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## id450 (Jun 10, 2014)

Actually , ill start a new topic. I don't want to screw up this one. 
Sorry 


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