# Vegas Point restrictions?



## Mach-X (Jun 12, 2006)

I tried finding out the diameter and point restrictions for Vegas but only found the mention of NFAA arrow point restriction for 2010 will not apply. What does that mean?
Im shooting 2712's with 300 grain points that still meets requirements correct?
thanks
Kevin


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## archerpap (Apr 24, 2006)

The ouside diameter on the pro point pins measures .432, and a size limit of .425 is only allowed. This only affects these points, and that rule is not in effect this year. That's what they are saying. If you don't use those points, no need to woory.


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## field14 (May 21, 2002)

archerpap said:


> The ouside diameter on the pro point pins measures .432, and a size limit of .425 is only allowed. This only affects these points, and that rule is not in effect this year. That's what they are saying. If you don't use those points, no need to woory.


So interesting in that the new size restriction rule went into effect in June, 2009...but now, all of a sudden, even tho the package for those particular points clearly states "Maximum diameter 0.425" "....they find out they are really 0.432....so now size restriction is OFF AGAIN for this year.

Are they going to ever enforce rules with regard to shaft/point diameter or not?

Seems to me to be opening a can of worms....meaning that, if anyone wanted to press the issue, since POINT DIAMETER isn't "enforced" then the door is open for SHAFT DIAMETER not to be enforced either...seems as if you can't have ONE enforced, but the other NOT enforced.

As far as I know....Pro-Point PINS are the only point that is out of limits... correct me if I'm wrong.

I know that the manufacturer's points for the GoldTip XXX arrows are less than 0.425" so are entirely LEGAL....

So, why the "exception" for one brand? 

Just curious how rules can be changed back and forth seemingly at will?

In addition, there has been ample notice of HOW TO FIX the points to make them "legal"...so...get 'em legal or go to the next smaller shaft/point combination to remain legal.

Bash away folks...but rules bending and making exceptions after the fact just doesn't seem right to me.

field14 (Tom D.)


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## archerpap (Apr 24, 2006)

I agree Tom. I like the pins, but have since switch to spotshooter's stinger points, which is basically the same style point, but the diameter is the same as the shaft. I have some in my 2314's, and they work awesome, and can pretty much say the same thing for my 27's. I still have lots of pro points, and they are also great points.


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## Mach-X (Jun 12, 2006)

*Pro Points on a 2712*

So the point is actually larger on a "Pro Point" than the 2712 Shaft? I thought the arrow shaft has to "touch" the line to count as a higher score not just mark or punch a corner or edge of the higher scoreing ring?
Kevin


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## archerpap (Apr 24, 2006)

It's the Pro Point Pins...2 different points, and yes the diameter is larger than the shaft. Rod posted a simple fix for it on here, and it does work, and the weight will all but stay the same(lose about a grain)


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## frank_jones (Mar 2, 2006)

*shaft touching*



Mach-X said:


> So the point is actually larger on a "Pro Point" than the 2712 Shaft? I thought the arrow shaft has to "touch" the line to count as a higher score not just mark or punch a corner or edge of the higher scoreing ring?
> Kevin


It is my understanding that you score the arrow not the ripped target.


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## field14 (May 21, 2002)

frank_jones said:


> It is my understanding that you score the arrow not the ripped target.


You are correct, in TARGET shooting, there is no such thing as "pulling a line." The arrow is scored where the SHAFT lies in the target face...and not where an over-sized point made a dent in said line, or where the shaft hit and then moved over.

The rule was clearly stated that the maximum point diameter is to be 0.425". 

I cannot understand how the points were manufacturered at 0.432 instead of being legal at 0.425".. and for so long nobody caught it or paid attention to it...until CRUNCH TIME. 

Yet for ONE type of point....the rule is being abandoned "for this year?"

The fix for the "problem" is in place and is simple....Seems it is clear that either FIX the points...or you aren't allowed compete with them!

ProPoint Pins are great points, I'll agree with that for sure.

Of course, WAF does not HAVE to follow the NFAA rules either. I haven't seen the shooters' brochure concerning the rules given out at registration time, however.

field14 (Tom D.)


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## Champion Shootr (Feb 12, 2003)

field14 said:


> So interesting in that the new size restriction rule went into effect in June, 2009...but now, all of a sudden, even tho the package for those particular points clearly states "Maximum diameter 0.425" "....they find out they are really 0.432....so now size restriction is OFF AGAIN for this year.
> 
> Are they going to ever enforce rules with regard to shaft/point diameter or not?
> 
> ...




Back up the train there, the NEW pro points have the .425 clearly stated on the outside of the package so people can tell them from the old ones. These points were being made before the rule went into effect and nobody caught it when the rule was made. They just went off the outside diameter of eastons points for the 2712's.


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## Footsteps (Jan 20, 2003)

*Correct information on Pro Point Pins*

Field 14 makes some incorrect statements in regard to Pro Point Pins. First off, the packaging on the New Version since the rule went into place, state .425 so people can tell the old from the new. We NEVER made a claim about our points that are untrue such as size or wt. *Let me be clear, all the Pro Points and Pro Point Pins that have the max size notation on the packaging are exactly that A MAX OF .425. Ignore Field14's claims.

Our points have been in around since the 2712 shaft and even Fields GT XXX's since they came out. When the World Archery Festival realized that under the new rule, all the 2712, GTXXX and XJammer27 points made over the past couple years prior to the rule were to large, they made an exception to the rule taking effect for this year so about a 1000 archers competing at Vegas this year didn't have to go out and get new points. Hey, I would love it if they did, I would sell a lot more points, but I agree with their decision as it helps archers in tough financial times. It is also why I have offered a quick and easy way to fix old points and even offered to fix them for archers.

You can try and make a big deal out of their decision, but I and a lot of other archers think that it was a good decision that helps archers. I pull no weight with the World Archery Festival as I spend no monies with them and they are not beholding to us for anything. This was done purely as a way to aid archers. What is so wrong with that?! NOTHING!, but some people need things to complain about and that is what they will do. It doesn't affect them, but they have to complain just the same.

We hold the best size and wt tolerances in the industry. Field14, your heavily self touted Pin knock offs tolerances are terrible. I have seen them bulge the front end of shafts, actually cracking the shafts (coincidently making the shaft too large to meet the max diameter). Bash our points all you want, but professional archers shooting them have won every major indoor event for the past two plus years shooting them. All Compound Medalists at the World Indoor Championships, Vegas, NFAA National Indoor, NAA National Indoor, etc. And we don't pay them a dime to shoot them. They just work, that is why they are shot.

Respectfully,

Rod Menzer*


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## field14 (May 21, 2002)

Rod,
Thanks for clearing up the statement on the package in the pictures given out previously. I stand well-corrected on that statement I made about the package statement and its contents. It is definitely good to know that there is a way of telling the "old" points from the "new" points other than by looking at the trailing edge of them.

However, it wasn't explained in the posts about that situation until now.

I'm not bashing your points at all, Rod. They ARE indeed great points and people using them love them. It is just too bad that they weren't in compliance at the begginning and checked right away once the 0.425" maximum size rule was put into place last February and went into effect in June, 2009.

However, 0.425" was clear and explicit in the rules that were put forth, thus those points should have been checked and measured for compliance from the very beginning, but were overlooked by accident.

Not a bashing of the points....just more of a situation of the rules not necessarily being the rules. Sorta like the English language..."there is always an exception to the rules".

As far as "excusing" the rule about point diameter and a thousand shooters having to buy new points....NOT THE CASE...you have been so kind as to explain how to fix the problem and apparently even put out a video on it.

Thus, those with the "old style" points can FIX THEM RIGHT UP IN MINUTES, so...they have time to do so.

My only complaint is "changing the rules around" after the fact.


I'm sorry if I appeared to bash the Pro Point Pins...cuz that isn't the intent.

If the rules are made, then enforce them, and don't be wishy-washy with them and change them "on the fly."

Anytime you have "some" shooters who's stuff is skirting the rules, and others who are staying "legal" there is an effect on EVERYONE.
Now what YOU have done concerning how to fix the problem with the old points is "helping archers" and helping everyone in that situation.

Back and forth maneuvering and changing of the rules on the fly and choosing which rules to enforce and not to enforce creates frustrations on the participants, and gives the impression that the "teacher" or "leadership" doesn't really know what they are doing. It gets to the point that the participants start to pick and choose which rules they'll comply with and which ones are "unimportant" to them...so you have more rules infractions.

field14 (Tom D.)


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## Footsteps (Jan 20, 2003)

*Thanks*

Thanks for the clarification Field 14.


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## field14 (May 21, 2002)

Footsteps said:


> Thanks for the clarification Field 14.


There is no doubt in my mind that you are trying to help out in this situation, and I apologize if it appeared that I was bashing your product. Again, not the case.

I just strongly feel that the rules are the rules and the leadership needs to take that position and not keep bending with the flow of the wind and appearing "wishy-washy" with regard to which rules are enforced this year and which ones they'll "let slide". CONSISTENCY is a key element to anything regarding people and their "management." Once the leadership starts to get inconsistent and keeps changing their minds based upon different situations and goes back and forth on things, then control and respect is quickly lost, and often times forever.

field14 (Tom D.)


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## blueglide1 (Jun 29, 2006)

I installed the new points last week taking out the old ones to fix and have ready for my next dozen arrows.Before I took all of them out I tried and old point and new point to see if I could see any difference in the two.I shot and old point first,then the new one.I dont know about you but I dont have a built in micrometer in my eyeball.I could see no difference in the hole made.Shafts kick anyway and larger holes are made all the time just by the force.So are kicks illeagle holes.Cmon lets get serious all this fuss is totally bunk.By the way the new points required no resighting as they are so close even by my non micrometer eye ball,that they managed to clean the Wis State indoor shoot in the Senior Mens Freestyle 600-120X.Rod these points rock! DonWard


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## Footsteps (Jan 20, 2003)

*New State Record*

Don,

I just want to say Congratulations on shooting a new State Record this weekend in the Senior Mens Freestyle!!!!!!! That is an amazing score you should be very proud of. Do us all a favor and stay in the Sr class 

on the points...yeah, 8/1000's is also called "a little bitty" in the dictionary


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## blueglide1 (Jun 29, 2006)

Footsteps said:


> Don,
> 
> I just want to say Congratulations on shooting a new State Record this weekend in the Senior Mens Freestyle!!!!!!! That is an amazing score you should be very proud of. Do us all a favor and stay in the Sr class
> 
> on the points...yeah, 8/1000's is also called "a little bitty" in the dictionary


Rod I hate to break the news but I am going Pro today. Senior Pro LOL


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## X-Ray (Apr 3, 2004)

*Congrats!*

Congrats Don!!! 
would you teach me your secret? lol 
good luck at vegas! might see you there.:darkbeer:


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## Footsteps (Jan 20, 2003)

*Don?!?*

Crap Don, now I need to switch to Bowhunter Freestyle Limited


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## 2fingers (Feb 2, 2006)

Missed you this weekend Rod. Maybe see you in VEGAS! Your points are the best. Now I need to get my head on right for that one or two shots a round. :teeth:


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## Champion Shootr (Feb 12, 2003)

blueglide1 said:


> Rod I hate to break the news but I am going Pro today. Senior Pro LOL


Congrats on your accomplishment, made us AMFS guys look pretty poor in comparison.


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## field14 (May 21, 2002)

Footsteps said:


> Crap Don, now I need to switch to Bowhunter Freestyle Limited


Maybe we should lobby for a "new" SENIOR CUB DIVISION....that shoots CUB stakes or distances. My wife keeps saying I'm in my second child-hood, so why not have "senior Cubs?"

hahahahaha.

Tom D. (field14)


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## FS560 (May 22, 2002)

The NFAA board of directors meeting did not address the subject point situation concerning the national indoor, other than a comment during general discussion that the relief granted for Vegas does not apply to Louisville unless the board of directors does something. It seemed to be general knowledge that the fix is simple and there is yet another month for shooters to grind the lip down.

Discussion included the fact that there would have to be a protest for any adverse action to be taken and then it would be against the shooter being protested.

It should be expected that there might be a micrometer or dial caliper at the tournament.


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## Joe Barbieur (Jul 31, 2002)

I would love to see the arrow/point restriction to be 9MM, but I don’t think you will see it anytime soon.
And Rod does make some very good points


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## staghunter (Apr 5, 2007)

I was shooting my cx x-jammers last night and measured the points because they are larger than the arrow. They are also .432 dia. So I put them on a buffing wheel and took them down to .425.


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