# did i make the right call



## kempcrete (Jun 26, 2011)

Yes you made the right call, don't worry about what they are saying about you, bc you didn't right the rules. Everybody on here talked bad about the guy with the range finder in semi pro, but as far as im concerned cheating is cheating. Good call.


----------



## carlosii (Feb 25, 2007)

congratulations on having the cajones to stand up to this guy. you'd be welcome to shoot in my group anytime. imho he needs to man up and apologize to you...publicly. but i wouldn't hold my breath. it begs the old question, why are there so many more horses azzez in this world than there are horses.


----------



## ohiobullseye (Feb 6, 2011)

I know you did the right thing, I would make the same call as you did. I hope more Archers will follow your lead and stop all of the cheaters that hurt our sport.


----------



## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

Good call.


----------



## landing10s (Apr 24, 2012)

I wouldn't concern myself with it... I think some people would've let "him" specifically reshoot it to keep him from whining and for the fact that 10 points meant at most the difference in finishing 50th or 80th for him so they would've taken the "his score has no relevance road"


----------



## 12sonly (Jan 6, 2007)

Yep, right call. if he would have let down all the way and arrow fell off within reach of stob he could get have reshow it. Glad you made the call.


----------



## Old Sarge (Sep 9, 2008)

Character and class is what you do when no one is looking. You can sleep tonight knowing you did the correct thing. If some guy is a cheater he will cheat people on the archery range and everywhere else in life. Some folks just can't take accountability for their own actions. Good job on your part!


----------



## bowden67 (Jun 6, 2005)

thanks guys.


----------



## Kstigall (Feb 24, 2004)

Congratulations, on being a decent man. It shouldn't be _unusual _ for doing nothing more than what should be typical but it sure seems to be.

You did NOT make the call. The range official did so if he has a problem with it he should talk to an ASA official.
He shouldn't be making a big deal out of it. It sucks when we make a mistake but it happens.

To all the guys bad mouthing bowden67, HE DID NOT MAKE THE RULES OR THE CALL!.


----------



## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

We talked for over a hour on the way home about all of the decisions made while scoring and the different ways a group could change as the weekend played out. This instance of a guy chucking a arrow a few feet is just another thing some guys want to do to hide the fact that their weekend just went down the toilet.

I have been going over my weekend in my head and I shot awesome and had 36 great stakes where things worked out perfect but there were 4 shots that didn't go my way and I got 22nd place and any one of those shots could have bumped me up 5 or 6 places and nocked some guys down so It isn't fair to them if my group had been leanient on our decisions.


----------



## string jumper (Jun 10, 2007)

*Answer*

Were you planing on going to his Birthday
Or was he going to yours ?
Most likely a no.
Then don't let it bother you.
Just keep living ethically.




Kstigall said:


> Congratulations, on being a decent man. It shouldn't be _unusual _ for doing nothing more than what should be typical but it sure seems to be.
> 
> You did NOT make the call. The range official did so if he has a problem with it he should talk to an ASA official.
> He shouldn't be making a big deal out of it. It sucks when we make a mistake but it happens.
> ...


----------



## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

bowden67 said:


> this is my second year in asa and shooting open a,i guy in my group who we will call "nuclear" was letting down and the arrow came off and landed about 8 feet away. he said he could reshoot it,i stated i beleive the rule is if the arrow is propeled then it is an x. i said to ask the range official to rule on it and he said it was an x. after that he would not talk to us and stood in onther group with his "nuclear buddies" and bad mouth me. after the shoot he was talking with a mutual friend and called me every name in the book and how every body in open a hates me. its hard to go to kentucky with waiting on me,so did i make the right call or not?


He a cheater, plan and simple. You called it like the rules stated and range official backed you up.

Sad for some to be this way. 
DB


----------



## Bucks (Jul 27, 2005)

the issue isn't what you did, its that he failed to take personal responsibility for screwing up. its his fault, not your's. if he wants to jaw jack around, its a further sign of weakness.


----------



## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

Don't forget the more this idiot tells his story he is spreading how stupid he is and you don't have to do anything because even his buddies know he was wrong but they will go along with it to his face but probably bash him behind his back. We all know you can't accidently release a arrow and that it is a 0, so does he.


----------



## ABTABB (Apr 4, 2007)

Had a Guy in Our group completely let down, and the arrow just kind of plucked off the string.. It only went about 5 or 6 feet, but then it flipped end over end a couple times and ended up 10-12 feet away.. He knew it was an X but, We talked Him into going to ask the Range Official, just to clarify.. I really wish this rule could be altered but, I realize You have to draw the line somewhere.. It's just Unfortunate when Everybody realizes it's not a "Shot"..


----------



## MrKrabs (Dec 8, 2008)

The same thing happened to me in Ga. I hit a tree, cussed myself for being stupid, and took my 0. Unless you can get the arrow while touching the stake it's a shot arrow. I only wish that was the only stupid thing I did this past weekend.


----------



## field14 (May 21, 2002)

We'll obviously never know for sure, but...here we go again....MORE tournaments where the clearly defined rules are being skirted, or at least people are "bullying" their way or trying to bully their way into getting ILLEGAL accommodations for their screw ups.

Whatever happened to the honor code and ethics? It seems to be more and more that CHEATING isn't really being considered as anything serious at all.

Who's to say just how much of this is really going on, especially on an outdoor event? You know the adage, What happens in XXXX, STAYS in XXXX. So, anything could be going on to "accommodate" somebody's ILLEGAL screw up and to give them the mulligan and go on like nothing ever happened.

I've read that in several data polls, that 85% of kids in school have either cheated or would cheat on tests and exams, and don't seen anything really wrong with it. Some kids call it "networking" to help each other out. I know for a fact that most don't see anything wrong with "borrowing" stuff from the internet and calling it their own work...and then squawk when they are 'docked' for plagiarism.
Apparently, there is little to no honor among the thieves of today....

CHEATING is a worrisome thing, since it is going on in schools, business, banking, you name it....and apparently it is becoming more of a common practice also. Is it acceptable? Apparently so, since those doing it, even when caught, get a slap on the wrist, and in some cases still end up with getting a "mulligan" and a chance to try again!

field14 (Tom D.)


----------



## tmorelli (Jul 31, 2005)

ABTABB said:


> Had a Guy in Our group completely let down, and the arrow just kind of plucked off the string.. It only went about 5 or 6 feet, but then it flipped end over end a couple times and ended up 10-12 feet away.. He knew it was an X but, We talked Him into going to ask the Range Official, just to clarify.. I really wish this rule could be altered but, I realize You have to draw the line somewhere.. It's just Unfortunate when Everybody realizes it's not a "Shot"..



I agree. There are lots of issues where enforcing the "letter of the law" really puts us at odds with the intention or "spirit of the law."

I shot a practice round recently where we discussed this very thing. My friend let down the bow in a controlled, deliberate manner. The arrow fell off and we both knew the rules well but interpreted them differently. He had read it to mean that he had a zero even though the letdown was controlled and the arrow was laying within a couple feet of his feet. My interpretation hinges on the word "propelled". The arrow fell off, not propelled off. I told him to pick the arrow up, shoot and score it. 

In LA this year, I went to let down the bow and misfired. Mine was clearly propelled though. What can you do?........suck it up and do your best going forward. 

In my opinion, the word "propelled" is about as good as the line can be drawn. There will be instances like your example where it's unfortunate that "it wasn't really a botched shot" but it will catch the vast majority of the instances that it should.

To the OP, it really sounds like you did the right thing and the guy in question doesn't belong in our sport until he grows up. Only going 8 feet, his was probably one of those in the grey area but it clearly had to have been "propelled" to get that far.


----------



## Kritter (Jul 11, 2011)

Good call Bowden! This shooter from Jax FL who is sponsored by "Nuclear Bowstrings" ows you an appology. He's mad because he was trying to bully the group into allowing him to cheat and got busted for it...too bad "Nuclear". Everyone participating in these events works too hard and spends too much money to be beat by a cheater. Bowden is welcome to shoot with me anytime...


----------



## t48931 (Jan 16, 2011)

I was in the group next to him and was there when it happened. To say the arrow landed 8 feet away is an over exageration. He let the bow down all the way. When he took his release off the string the arrow fell to his feet and he could easily reach it from the stake. Was it propelled the string? Maybe maybe not. His release may have just bumped it off. I seen the whole thing. I would also be careful of calling someone a cheater because of a call. Most of the semi pros and open a shooters who also saw the event said that they would have not called it that way that I spoke to.


----------



## WDMJR3DBOWGUY (Dec 2, 2003)

Well since I'm the shooter in question why don't you ask my side of the story. I'm no cheater, but you choose which rules to follow yourself. I tried to enforce the cell phone rule with another shooter in our group, you didn't want to. I tried to enforce the stepping off targets with same shooter, you didn't want to. Don't pick and choose rules to suite your personal agenda, I'm for one sick of hearing you bad mouth a friend of mine. If you want to air this in the public, let's!!! You were the only one that said it was a shot, the range official explained the rule and you were the only one in the group that decided what you did. The other two said it wasn't. Yes I did not sit around our group after this. This is the 3rd time I shot with you. Do not loop me in with cheating, you pulled your rangefinder out at a qualifier many times along with everyone inte group I walked away when yall choose to so that. You discuss yardage at every target you missed this weekend and before. Follow the rules to the letter or not at all. Don't hate on me because people that saw your shooting, saw your attitude, and made their own opinions. 

The bow was at rest, I was all the way down, I was removing the release from the loop with it caused it...it was seen by more than just you. I took my zero and wasn't happy about it.

Daniel Boone I don't appreciate that comment, he has his own agenda.


----------



## montigre (Oct 13, 2008)

This is exactly why if I am not directly involved in a situation ie on the bale where an infraction occurred or have direct knowledge of what may have occurred, I tend to keep my opinions to myself. There are always two sides to every story and the one we read about on these types of forums may not always be the most complete version. Be careful before we turn this site into a vigilante free for all. :wink:


----------



## WDMJR3DBOWGUY (Dec 2, 2003)

I was also the first one to call it a zero until I was told by others including 2 in my group that it wasn't. 

If you know me personally I'm no cheater, I don't circumvent the rules and don't try to argue for better arrow calls. I've been in the situation when people called my arrows in and I argued theyre out.

Robert I hope you have a great rest of the year. But this was uncalled for, I honestly had to keep people from telling you a few choice words yesterday on the range after this incident. I have no bad feelings against you, I just don't like you as a person. You bad mouth people I'm personal friends with. I hope you continue to get better as a shooter and a person.


----------



## WDMJR3DBOWGUY (Dec 2, 2003)

12sonly said:


> Yep, right call. if he would have let down all the way and arrow fell off within reach of stob he could get have reshow it. Glad you made the call.


Can you please show me where in the rule book it says if you can reach it from the stake. I've been told it wasn't there. I could've reached it by just bending over.


----------



## tmorelli (Jul 31, 2005)




----------



## reylamb (Feb 5, 2003)

WDMJR3DBOWGUY said:


> Can you please show me where in the rule book it says if you can reach it from the stake. I've been told it wasn't there. I could've reached it by just bending over.


It was taken out of the ASA rules a few years ago. I actually witnessed someone that could not let their bow down, they would point the arrow near their feet and let er rip after calling let down. They would then ben over and pick up the arrow, and go through their shot process again.

The whole propelled by the string is where it gets iffy and judgements have to be made.


----------



## bhtr3d (Feb 13, 2004)

This rule was was changed in its wording from years before: calling letdown and if the arrow being shot ...and or a person aiming down at the ground and shooting it. 

We changed the rule for the safety issue that these senerios were causing. 

I was not there nor was I in his group. But, I will say this. A) the range official is the governing factor to the rules and your group is to police theirselves. 

Now, for situtation: A) if said archer was letting down and the bow was at rest, and say you bumped or struck the string ....This would not be a shot arrow. (This is call arrow falling off the rest/string) 

Situation B) If you were letting down and at any moment before the arrow/ bow was at a rest state.....and the arrow did launch , that is a shot arrow. 

Now, I know both of these shooters. 
Doug....is not a cheater.....So, Dan that was not really needed, to incinuate that action.
Bob..... You know Doug is not a cheater as well. So, to bring something like this up , really is not needed. 
We all shoot in the same state...... let's just chaulk it up to a misunderstanding......and we can shoot up at the state shoot: )


----------



## bhtr3d (Feb 13, 2004)

You can reach for it....IF it was not a propelled arrow. like I stated above.


----------



## Kritter (Jul 11, 2011)

I shoot semi pro and heard a slightly different version, after the fact obviously. I was told that reaching the arrow would require you laying on your belly and dragging it toward you with another object, i.e an umbrella. A friend of mine is a range official (on a different range) and he insists that if the arrow has been nocked and falls off in any manner, it's a zero....I don't think it's spelled out quite that clearly in the rules though. I too would like 12sonly to paste the rule.


----------



## bhtr3d (Feb 13, 2004)

Kritter said:


> I shoot semi pro and heard a slightly different version, after the fact obviously. I was told that reaching the arrow would require you laying on your belly and dragging it toward you with another object, i.e an umbrella. A friend of mine is a range official (on a different range) and he insists that if the arrow has been nocked and falls off in any manner, it's a zero....I don't think it's spelled out quite that clearly in the rules though. I too would like 12sonly to paste the rule.




LMAO ...belly crawl for the arrow. LMAO


----------



## field14 (May 21, 2002)

I don't understand this at all.....Guess it is from all the years of shooting.
Many years ago, NFAA had a rule that was very similar to the apparent ASA rule about falling off the string to the ground being a zero. Then they did something, can't remember what but it resulted into the same unsafe practice mentioned above...the person on a let down, would hold the bow back, lower it and aim at the ground right in front of them and then shoot the arrow into the dirt. That one didn't last long.
Now, the indoor rule has a 10-foot line and if ALL of the arrow goes past that line, then the arrow is a "shot arrow" and results in a ZERO score for that arrow. IF, however any part of the arrow is on the shooter's side of that 10-foot line, it is a "dropped arrow" and can be re-shot.
Then, OUTDOORS, as far as I know, the rule is that if the arrow can still be reached from the shooting stake, then regardless of string "propulsion" or not...it is a "dropped arrow" and can be re-shot. I think that a controlled let down and an arrow that is reachable from the shooting stake by the shooter should NOT be a "zero." Apparently, the ASA rule as currently written or shown above doesn't "call it" that way.
The rule copy/pasted about talks about SHOOTING the arrow, sort of...it doesn't mention let down and being able to reach the arrow from the shooting stake...VERY UNCLEAR and open to way too much interpretation, IMHO.
Are there other rules relating to the one posted above?
Seems to me I recall something different from previous years, but foggy on it.


----------



## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

Bowden67, my idiot comment goes both ways. If you come on here and tell a story where you are exaggerating the real story then everyone who actually saw the incident knows you are the problem and you are only making yourself look bad. We are a small group of people who try to enjoy the same sport and the self policing is part of the sport and in the end all you have is your actions.


----------



## tmorelli (Jul 31, 2005)

@ field14,

I think that is the rule in it's entirety. 

IMO, it's hard to write practical rules that get the job done without some fallout. It's my spirit of the law vs. letter of the law argument.

Anyway, can we argue Roe v. Wade or gun laws next? I haven't said things I regret on here in a few days :wink:


----------



## bowden67 (Jun 6, 2005)

i never called you a cheater, i called the range official to make the call,if he said shoot again i would have been alright with it. i did not see the guy pacing yardage until you said something about it and i never asked anything about yardage either day, you must have me mixed up with someone else. i just dont like be called names behind my back im sure we will see each other in the future and we can discuss it


----------



## Babyk (Jul 5, 2011)

Rules are the rules
Sucks it happens to that guy but he should had been the bigger man and called it on himself and not made the group do it and put you guys in a bad spot


----------



## Tallybowman (Dec 2, 2008)

What about an arrow that is propelled by the string when the shooter puts his release on it and is simply checking to make sure his release is secure. When he/she applies a little tension to the release, the release lets go (did not have it securely in place) and it slings an arrow about 4 to 6 feet. Is this considered and x? According to the rules it is but common sense says he/she wasn't even attempting a shot yet, just checking to make sure release was secure.


----------



## bhtr3d (Feb 13, 2004)

Tallybowman said:


> What about an arrow that is propelled by the string when the shooter puts his release on it and is simply checking to make sure his release is secure. When he/she applies a little tension to the release, the release lets go (did not have it securely in place) and it slings an arrow about 4 to 6 feet. Is this considered and x? According to the rules it is but common sense says he/she wasn't even attempting a shot yet, just checking to make sure release was secure.


that's a shot arrow...if the release was put on and the arrow falls off.....then no


----------



## bowden67 (Jun 6, 2005)

this bad experence has made me to decide not to shoot any more asa events for a while.


----------



## jcrayford2001 (Nov 13, 2002)

I dunno about this..... I have never let down WITHOUT someone stating that I had to let down due to safety reasons (someone within an unsafe distance behind target, no arrow loaded, something stuck in the cams, etc)....

Wouldn't this all be clearly solved if the rules were changed to read "Upon letdown, the score shall be marked as a zero" ?

I mean, by the time you step to the shooting stake, should you not be ready and willing to release the arrow? I guess what I'm asking is; why let down?

I'm not knocking anyone for letting down, just want to know more please....

J.


----------



## nochance (Nov 27, 2008)

I think a lot of people never read the rules. They guy by what they've learned from their shop, league and other people. It wouldn't be a bad idea to carry a rule book with you.


----------



## rigginuts (Dec 27, 2008)

Hold on there bowden, don't throw the towel in so fast.

You said he "was letting down and the arrow came off and landed about 8 feet away. he said he could reshoot it,i stated *i beleive *the rule is if the arrow is propeled then it is an x. i said to ask the range official to rule on it" and he (the range offical) said it was an x. 

1. The only way the arrow could have got out of reach ... it had to be propelled by the string, right ??
2. The range offical made the final desision - so bowden must have been right !!!
3. Bowden, I know your upset but why would you not shoot ASA again if the range offical made the final judgement ?
4. I really think we need more people who aren't affraid to speak out or speak up in these types of situations.

I personally think bowden made the right decision. I think he handled it with class and professionalism and I personnelly hope he doesn't give up ASA.


----------



## Kritter (Jul 11, 2011)

I agree with Rigginuts. The official made the call...something to that. Don't quit because of something this silly Bowden.


----------



## bluerocker (Dec 24, 2009)

No I don't think you made the right call, if the other two shooters said shoot it again I would have let it go. I also think you should've just let whatever happened. Go and not have post it on here. Like the old saying the more you stir chit the worse it stinks!!! I have a question for both of you, who was ahead in score when this happened you or him?


----------



## bustn'nocks (May 11, 2010)

Class and professionalism my rear end!

Here is the situation as I see it. We have one guy who says an arrow was shot. We have another guy who says he let down and the arrow came off the string when he pulled his release off the loop (as most everyone does after a let down). The OP admitted to not understanding the rule and decided to bring it up here. No problems yet right?

In this situation, I think most anyone who truly believes they did not shoot an arrow or violate the rules is going to get pissed. Especially after being told by someone who does not understand the rules and chooses to enforce them inconsistently, that they get an X for something they do not believe happened. If the person who believes they were wronged has someone they know and trust around (talking to his "nuclear buddies"), they will certainly express their displeasure with the situation with those they know and trust. Still, nothing unexpected is going on here.

Where it all goes wrong in my eyes is with the OP. If you TRUELY wanted to get clarification from objective sources on a call that YOU made, YOU could have expressed it in a completely different manner. There was no need to bring the persons livelihood into the discussion (in the form a juvenile reference to his business name) in an obvious attempt to undermine his credibility. That sir, was a classless move. When you then decided to bring his "nuclear buddies" into the discussion, you then steeped into a level below classless where you attempt to undermine the credibility of those who you have never had any interaction (for clarification I did shoot with the OP at a different pro-am but other "nuclear buddies" that were spoken to have not) with and in my eyes makes you spiteful. Grow up. 

All that being said, yes, I am a close personal friend of the shooter in question. Yes, I do shoot for his company and will stand behind his product. He has as much pride in his craft as anyone in the business and I will stack his work up against anyone. Hell, he may even be wrong about what happened but he believes what he told me to be true and I will trust him when he tells me that the shot did not happen until proven otherwise. 

When the OP takes the approach that he did in this case, I will further dig in my heels. If the OP really wanted to get an answer to his question, he never would have called out the name. It gives the appearance that he has an agenda.


----------



## bustn'nocks (May 11, 2010)

Kritter said:


> I agree with Rigginuts. The official made the call...something to that. Don't quit because of something this silly Bowden.


If I'm not mistaken, the official cannot make a call. The final decision is always with the group of shooters.


----------



## patriot338 (Dec 25, 2009)

The same thing happened to me last year. I was adjusting my grip on my release with my bow not even raised into shooting position and I clicked my release causing the arrow to propel about 6-8 feet. Two guys standing behind me said to get my arrow and shoot one other guy who was close to my score said it was a shot. He basically convinced the other two guys that a propelled arrow was an X, then thats what I got. I think if your are not engaging the target and this happens you should be able to get your arrow and shoot. When something like this happens you are by no means attempting to shoot at the time so why would you ruin other archers weekend over some technicallity.


----------



## bow-legged (Nov 26, 2002)

I want to beat the guy straight up not on some shady gray area rule. I also don't think talking smack on a forum is the right way to handle it. You should of talked it out like a man instead of going home and posting on here about it.


----------



## 3Dblackncamo (Jul 22, 2009)

WDMJR3DBOWGUY said:


> Well since I'm the shooter in question why don't you ask my side of the story. I'm no cheater, but you choose which rules to follow yourself. I tried to enforce the cell phone rule with another shooter in our group, you didn't want to. I tried to enforce the stepping off targets with same shooter, you didn't want to. Don't pick and choose rules to suite your personal agenda, I'm for one sick of hearing you bad mouth a friend of mine. If you want to air this in the public, let's!!! You were the only one that said it was a shot, the range official explained the rule and you were the only one in the group that decided what you did. The other two said it wasn't. Yes I did not sit around our group after this. This is the 3rd time I shot with you. Do not loop me in with cheating, you pulled your rangefinder out at a qualifier many times along with everyone inte group I walked away when yall choose to so that. You discuss yardage at every target you missed this weekend and before. Follow the rules to the letter or not at all. Don't hate on me because people that saw your shooting, saw your attitude, and made their own opinions.
> 
> The bow was at rest, I was all the way down, I was removing the release from the loop with it caused it...it was seen by more than just you. I took my zero and wasn't happy about it.
> 
> Daniel Boone I don't appreciate that comment, he has his own agenda.


If the arrow was not propelled it was not a shot, if it could be reached from the stake then it can be shot! I would have no problem shooting with you, by the way my name is Country and I shoot Open A as well, hope to see ya in Kentucky!


----------



## doodlejr. (Feb 24, 2009)

first off, "nuclear" is a VERY close friend of mine and i have shot with him on more occasions than i can remmeber. i have never once seen him cheat, attempt to cheat, be dishonest in any manner, or 'bend' the rules in his favor. if anything, hes a stickler for the rules and uaslly calls others out on them. so for someone who doesnt know the guy personally, or wasnt there, to say hes a 'cheater" not only has problems with me, but has problems with everyone of our friends. theres nothing more digusting than a cheater. he is far from it. so Robert and any one else who wants to pick and choose there story, can suck on my big toe. or right fist. or left foot. you made an incorrect call, and as an Open A shooter, you should know the ruels inside and out. i would expect thsi from novice or open c. not open a. my friend doesnt need me to stand up for him, cause he can hold his own, but i wont let others jump to conclusions...


----------



## doodlejr. (Feb 24, 2009)

bowden67 said:


> this bad experence has made me to decide not to shoot any more asa events for a while.




good ridance.


----------



## 12sonly (Jan 6, 2007)

want to know more about the strings you make might need you to make me some. big ole tall boy from north carolina said they were real good strings. after i heard from other people around you when it happen,i would have to call bs on the X.just as i stated before the arrow has to be propeled toward target. i also shoot open a and was in augusta. this happen to me 3 years ago i was allow to reach arrow from stob and shoot. i was a rule at one time.


----------



## doodlejr. (Feb 24, 2009)

check out nuclear chicken bowstrings on facebook


----------



## jimb (Feb 17, 2003)

Seems to me it comes down to what happened to the arrow, was it propelled by the string or was it dropped. If propelled it's a bummer for the weekend, if dropped it was a bad call.

Something like this happened last year with one of the Pro shooters, can't remember which one.


----------



## 3-D Quest (Jan 26, 2007)

There are 3 sides to every story. Yours...His...Then, there is the Truth!
I wasn't there, so don't expect me to fall in with you, or all of those that are so quick to judge and call someone a cheater on your behalf. I'm amazed how quick some of you can jump to conclusions.
Besides, throwing in the towel, actually shows a lack of integrity to me.


----------



## landing10s (Apr 24, 2012)

bowden67 said:


> this is my second year in asa and shooting open a,i guy in my group who we will call "nuclear" was letting down and the arrow came off and landed about 8 feet away. he said he could reshoot it,i stated i beleive the rule is if the arrow is propeled then it is an x. i said to ask the range official to rule on it and he said it was an x. after that he would not talk to us and stood in onther group with his "nuclear buddies" and bad mouth me. after the shoot he was talking with a mutual friend and called me every name in the book and how every body in open a hates me. its hard to go to kentucky with waiting on me,so did i make the right call or not?


i fail to see the relevance in this... the shooter in question ended up with a 359 and 5 bonus rings for 75th place... if he had shot a 14 on the target he wouldve only moved to 57th place.. if it was me, since this was well into the second day so his eventual score wouldve been pretty obvious, i wouldve said, "hey buddy, pick it up and shoot it, in fact shoot two down there and we'll give you the total score for both arrows"

we aint talking about the pros he guys!! which btw Dan Mccarthy had the EXACT same thing happen to him in Texas last year, yall know what he did? took the zero like a man (and by that i mean he didnt go trash talk to all his buddies) and came back and won the tournament with a ZERO!


----------



## Joseph McCluske (Jun 8, 2005)

I know in the IBO if you can reach it from the stake even if your laying on your belly it's not a shot. I personally would want the guy to get his arrow and shoot it at the target, I want to beat my peers by shooting against them not try to take advantage of someones mistake, than to be insulted on a public forum and called a cheater WOW.


----------



## landing10s (Apr 24, 2012)

landing10s said:


> i fail to see the relevance in this... the shooter in question ended up with a 359 and 5 bonus rings for 75th place... if he had shot a 14 on the target he wouldve only moved to 57th place.. if it was me, since this was well into the second day so his eventual score wouldve been pretty obvious, i wouldve said, "hey buddy, pick it up and shoot it, in fact shoot two down there and we'll give you the total score for both arrows"
> 
> we aint talking about the pros he guys!! which btw Dan Mccarthy had the EXACT same thing happen to him in Texas last year, yall know what he did? took the zero like a man (and by that i mean he didnt go trash talk to all his buddies) and came back and won the tournament with a ZERO!


whoops!! ive gotten misinformation somewhere as that was the story i was told about dan mccarthy but he shot a 426 with 17, therefor since they dont count 14s it is physically impossibly for him to have missed a target.. if anyone know the real twist of that story i would be really interested!!!


----------



## landing10s (Apr 24, 2012)

WDMJR3DBOWGUY said:


> You discuss yardage at every target you missed this weekend and before. Follow the rules to the letter or not at all. Don't hate on me because people that saw your shooting, saw your attitude, and made their own opinions.


Is it me or is this guy calling him out for not shooting well? he also said something about "i hope you get better as a person and shooter" kinda harsh coming from a guy who has never finished above 57th in a pro am and has never shot higher than a 378.. sounds to me like this whole contraversy shouldve happened in bow nervous not open a.......


----------



## carlosii (Feb 25, 2007)

could this be a bit of fall out from the range finding binos? folks gonna start being "range police" ? folks need to use that commodity that is in such short supply...common sense.
sorry i suckered into commenting originally on this thread...but i'll beat up on myself for that alone...not on this forum.


----------



## WDMJR3DBOWGUY (Dec 2, 2003)

landing10s said:


> Is it me or is this guy calling him out for not shooting well? he also said something about "i hope you get better as a person and shooter" kinda harsh coming from a guy who has never finished above 57th in a pro am and has never shot higher than a 378.. sounds to me like this whole contraversy shouldve happened in bow nervous not open a.......


I did not make this an issue on here, he did. Plus how do you know how I was shooting before this happened? 


Look it's done it's over I got a zero on it. It was a bad call in my opinion and others. But what's done is done and maybe the asa will do something about making the rules more clear. There are two many rules with grey areas and to many people, including range officials who do not know the rules. 

It was not cool to drag my business into this and that's my problem with the whole thing. Hope you come to Kentucky, Robert.


----------



## landing10s (Apr 24, 2012)

WDMJR3DBOWGUY said:


> I did not make this an issue on here, he did. Plus how do you know how I was shooting before this happened?
> 
> 
> QUOTE]
> ...


----------



## WDMJR3DBOWGUY (Dec 2, 2003)

Assumption is the mother of you know what. I did shoot a 5 after this happened and had shot one earlier, but it does not mean I was shooting that horrible of a score. I did have a pile of tens in my pocket and had shot a resonable score the day before, wasnt gone win it but might have finished better than i did. That shouldnt matter though, scores should not influence rules. Personal agendas can, as I feel is the case here since he brought my business into it. If I hadn't been wearing a shirt with my business name on it what would he have called me then, "Hoyt guy"? I said it before, rules where picked and choose from to suit the needs at the time. I always call it fair and have always been stricter on myself in the rules. But it is what it is. 

And I believe the rules read it is upon the group to decide, not the range official.


----------



## jimb (Feb 17, 2003)

jcrayford2001 said:


> I dunno about this..... I have never let down WITHOUT someone stating that I had to let down due to safety reasons (someone within an unsafe distance behind target, no arrow loaded, something stuck in the cams, etc)....
> 
> Wouldn't this all be clearly solved if the rules were changed to read "Upon letdown, the score shall be marked as a zero" ?
> 
> ...


Zero for a letdown!!


----------



## tmorelli (Jul 31, 2005)

jimb said:


> Zero for a letdown!!


I hope you weren't agreeing with that. Its about as well-grounded as outlawing all optics because of one cheater.



Sent from my BlackBerry 9650 using Tapatalk


----------



## dgmeadows (Jun 15, 2005)

jcrayford2001 said:


> I dunno about this..... I have never let down WITHOUT someone stating that I had to let down due to safety reasons (someone within an unsafe distance behind target, no arrow loaded, something stuck in the cams, etc)....
> 
> Wouldn't this all be clearly solved if the rules were changed to read "Upon letdown, the score shall be marked as a zero" ?
> 
> ...



Why letdown ???

Let's see -

(1) Glare on my peep, lens, etc. so I need to request someone to shade
(2) Can't see my pin on the target, need to turn on light
(3) Backtension release did not cooperate, and my hold got shaky
(4) Somebody down range yelled "yahoo" or "14" and caused me to loose focus
(5) A mosquito flew up my nose, or in my eye
(6) I lost my spot that I was aiming at
(7) The set up just didn't feel right
(8) Etc., etc,

From your equipment list, it appears you are a Hunter class shooter. I have had many discussions with Hunter guys who get irritated at Open class shooters taking their full allotment of time to estimate range and shoot, and letting down. 

This happened in Open A - in Open classes, let-downs are common place. In fact, I wish I could learn to actually let down when things aren't quite right instead of trying to force the shot. I can think of at least 4 shots this weekend I could have improved if I had let down and started over. I did let down on 3 I can recall, and ended up with a 10 or 12 on all of them. If I had forced the shot on those, they would have likely all been 8s or worse, because my pin float was getting far wider than I wanted.

Banning let-downs is not the answer. I don't want a guy forcing a shot when he is shaking like a leaf in a tornado, smacking a nearby tree, sending carbon shards all over the place.


----------



## jcrayford2001 (Nov 13, 2002)

dgmeadows said:


> Why letdown ???
> 
> Let's see -
> 
> ...


Ok, cool.... Thanks dg for the insight as to why someone would let down...

Yes, I agree that if it's an unsafe situation (no arrow loaded, someone downrange, etc) then a let down is required and should not be penalized in any way. I also agree that between the different classes (Hunter vs Open) that there must be different, allowable changes to the rules to appease both classes....

Yes, I guess I could be classified as a Hunter class shooter. I got into 3D for the hunting practice only; not for points. So I was just wondering about the mental aspect of a let down. Again, I use 3D as a practice for hunting and couldn't picture myself in a hunting situation letting down on every draw opportunity I've had to adjust for glare on peep, shaking, etc.... If I let down on an animal, *most* times they are gone for good.

J.


----------



## mainehunt (Sep 11, 2006)

ABTABB said:


> Had a Guy in Our group completely let down, and the arrow just kind of plucked off the string.. It only went about 5 or 6 feet, but then it flipped end over end a couple times and ended up 10-12 feet away.. He knew it was an X but, We talked Him into going to ask the Range Official, just to clarify.. *I really wish this rule could be altered but, I realize You have to draw the line somewhere.*. It's just Unfortunate when Everybody realizes it's not a "Shot"..


This is what I have been think.

It should be the group's decision in my opinion. If a guy is obviously letting down and the arrows falls out, it isn't a shot.

Kev
<><


----------



## sagecreek (Jul 15, 2003)

You got robbed. lain:


----------



## dgmeadows (Jun 15, 2005)

jcrayford2001 said:


> Ok, cool.... Thanks dg for the insight as to why someone would let down...
> 
> Yes, I agree that if it's an unsafe situation (no arrow loaded, someone downrange, etc) then a let down is required and should not be penalized in any way. I also agree that between the different classes (Hunter vs Open) that there must be different, allowable changes to the rules to appease both classes....
> 
> ...


J. -

Most open class archers started 3D as a way to practice hunting. I remember having conversations with my shooting buddies "back when" I first started shooting 3D. I used to wonder why some guys took so long and let down so many times, and I thought the long stabilizers were silly. Then I moved from novice class (30 yards) to hunter and realized that the difference between 30 and 40 yards is a big difference, particularly when shooting ASA speed limit rules. Then I got target panic and had to try a back tension release... then I just had to see if a lens would help... then I just had to see if a single pin would give me a more clear sight picture... then I just had to try the longer stabs to see if they really did make a difference. Within a few years, I had become one of "them".

Anyway, sorry for the thread hi-jack, but the longer you play this game, the more likely you are to get sucked into the vortex of playing for points rather than preparing for hunting. Some avoid it and just keep on shooting their hunting set ups, but many more end up moving to the open classes and loving it.


----------



## Ohbowhunter815 (Jul 19, 2010)

To the OP, I dont agree with presenting this on an open forum in the manner you did. Regardless of what happened or who was right. Its one thing to find out the "what would you have done" to the AT community but it was pretty easy for alot of people on here to know who you were talking about. Dont get me wrong it makes for a good read at lunchtime. And I'll probably check out nuclear chicken strings now.


----------



## Rolo (Dec 16, 2002)

I'm confused...the OP says this:



bowden67 said:


> ...guy in my group who we will call "nuclear" was letting down and the *arrow came off and landed about 8 feet away*.


The person, who apparently was at the stake, and who received the X said this:



WDMJR3DBOWGUY said:


> Well since I'm the shooter in question...the range official explained the rule and you were the only one in the group that decided what you did....
> 
> The bow was at rest, I was all the way down, I was removing the release from the loop with it caused it...it was seen by more than just you. I took my zero and wasn't happy about it.


AND:



WDMJR3DBOWGUY said:


> I was also the first one to call it a zero until I was told by others including 2 in my group that it wasn't.


AND:



WDMJR3DBOWGUY said:


> Can you please show me where in the rule book it says if you can reach it from the stake. I've been told it wasn't there. I* could've reached it by just bending over*.


So...either the arrow was 8 feet away, or it was essentially at the shooter's feet (Unless he posessesses the longest arms in the history of mankind) or it was somewhere in the middle.

So...what was exactly asked of the range official? If he was told that the arrow was 8 feet away, it seems it is clearly a shot arrow. Is this what he was told? Was he told the shooter could "bend over and pick it" from the stake. 2 entirely different factual situations, with 2 entirely different outcomes based on interpretation of rules and what was told to the official who explained the rules.

But...the shooter in question also says that he was the first to call it a "0" until others told himn it could be re-shot...so obviously, before any range official was involved, he himself, thought it was a "0" based on his interpretation of the rules...

And, based on what has been presented, apparently from both sides, and with the addition that it appears the 2 others in the group said it could be re-shot, I don't don't see any "cheating" or attempt to "cheat" involved...anyone who assumed there was cheating, or the intent to cheat without knowing more, is, IMO, a bigger detriment to archery in general than any of the people directly involved in this situation, and should be offering an apology...but I doubt that will occur...making them look even worse...


----------



## sagecreek (Jul 15, 2003)

It's not even in the rules now that you have to be touching the stake. lain:

The ASA sends the rules out each year. I think more people need to study them before they go shoot, including myself.


----------



## mathewdbl_lung (Mar 17, 2008)

The OP should not have brought the guys business into it. From what I hear the shooter in question makes EXCELLENT STRINGS! This was supposed to be a thread about a ruling on a "GREY AREA." 

This thread is taking it TOO FAR and you just wanted to drag his name through the mud! Which....if I remember correctly, you were complaining about the shooter in question doing.


----------



## redfish (Jul 13, 2005)

mathewdbl_lung said:


> The OP should not have brought the guys business into it. From what I hear the shooter in question makes EXCELLENT STRINGS! This was supposed to be a thread about a ruling on a "GREY AREA."
> 
> This thread is taking it TOO FAR and you just wanted to drag his name through the mud! Which....if I remember correctly, you were complaining about the shooter in question doing.


Good post.


----------



## J Whittington (Nov 13, 2009)

I was in the Group beside them, saw what happened, and nuclear got shafted. No I was not shooting his strings, so don't claim I have an agenda. Everyone of us in our group agrees he got chit on the call. Saw this incident happen a few times in pro class, and not one time as it ruled a shot. 

People need to improve their game/skills instead of trying to nick-pick every little detail they can. Example, there was a group of k50 or open As that were moving slower than steam off poop, but I didn't hear anyone complain to the point that a range official was called, nor was there a warning issued to them from the shooters about time.


----------



## mainehunt (Sep 11, 2006)

J Whittington said:


> I was in the Group beside them, saw what happened, and nuclear got shafted. No I was not shooting his strings, so don't claim I have an agenda. Everyone of us in our group agrees he got chit on the call. Saw this incident happen a few times in pro class, and not one time as it ruled a shot.
> 
> People need to improve their game/skills instead of trying to nick-pick every little detail they can. Example, there was *a group of k50 or open As that were moving slower than steam off poop,* but I didn't hear anyone complain to the point that a range official was called, nor was there a warning issued to them from the shooters about time.


An "Open" group taking too much time?! 

I'm shocked, never heard of such a thing.....................Hahahaa:tongue:

Kev
<><


----------



## reylamb (Feb 5, 2003)

J Whittington said:


> I was in the Group beside them, saw what happened, and nuclear got shafted. No I was not shooting his strings, so don't claim I have an agenda. Everyone of us in our group agrees he got chit on the call. Saw this incident happen a few times in pro class, and not one time as it ruled a shot.
> 
> People need to improve their game/skills instead of trying to nick-pick every little detail they can. Example, there was a group of k50 or open As that were moving slower than steam off poop, but I didn't hear anyone complain to the point that a range official was called, nor was there a warning issued to them from the shooters about time.


I would have called a range official on a slow group in a heart beat.


----------



## J Whittington (Nov 13, 2009)

Why? 
I didn't enjoy them being slow, but what was going to be accomplished by crying to a range official?


----------



## jimb (Feb 17, 2003)

I'm with Jerry on this one.


----------



## jimb (Feb 17, 2003)

I wish this rule could be cleared up in some way. I can see that if you are drawing the bow and you get the string back a little ways and your release fires and the arrow is propelled by the string then that is a shot. But letting down or knocking and arrow or attaching your release and you pluck the string and the arrow goes forward or drops it just don't seem to me like that should be a shot arrow. I think the rule if you can reach it from the stake is better than what we have.


----------



## JHCISS (Oct 15, 2006)

That will teach him to have 70lb limbs when he can't handle 'em! LOL. 

For what it's worth bowden, you have thousands and thousands of archers backing you on this decision.:thumbs_up


----------



## 011brute (Dec 15, 2010)

jhciss said:


> that will teach him to have 70lb limbs when he can't handle 'em! Lol.
> 
> For what it's worth bowden, you have thousands and thousands of archers backing you on this decision.:thumbs_up


x2!


----------



## dgmeadows (Jun 15, 2005)

JHCISS said:


> That will teach him to have 70lb limbs when he can't handle 'em! LOL.
> 
> For what it's worth bowden, you have thousands and thousands of archers backing you on this decision.:thumbs_up


 Thousands and thousands? You must work for one of those polling companies... because 10 people in our control 
group said so, we declare that thousands agree?


----------

