# Alright another one of the you make the cal



## Spiked2kx (Mar 3, 2013)

This was from Sunday the shoots over and scores are in. What would you guys call the bottom arrow.


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## bowtech2006 (Apr 1, 2006)

I would call it out.


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## schmel_me (Dec 17, 2003)

From what I see in the pic its in. You guys were a few yds HOT:wink:


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## hrtlnd164 (Mar 22, 2008)

From what I can see in the pic it's a 10. May be different in person.


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## darksidemxer (Feb 2, 2013)

Thats out of the ring.


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## bonecollector76 (Apr 23, 2005)

Its in.


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## DaveB (Aug 6, 2007)

i would call it out.. just my opinion.


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## Spiked2kx (Mar 3, 2013)

It was called out. I thought it was in but it was my arrow and I let the other guys call it. I see how it can go either way. Just me and a buddy wanted some opinions on it.


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## tmorelli (Jul 31, 2005)

hrtlnd164 said:


> From what I can see in the pic it's a 10. May be different in person.


same here.


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## J-Dubyah (Mar 6, 2010)

Looks in but the shadows make it tough to get a good look.


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## IrregularPulse (Sep 22, 2012)

I'd look closer from the bottom, but from those pics, call it out for myself. If it was another guy's arrow, I'd give it to him.


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## Babyk (Jul 5, 2011)

8 for sure

You can't call that a 10 there is meat in between the arrow and 10 ring

No wounder were seeing scores of 20/30 up on some of these ranges boys


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## baller (Oct 4, 2006)

It's in...at from what I see in the pics the shaft is clearly touching, if not breaking the plane of the line.


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## Spiked2kx (Mar 3, 2013)

Babyk said:


> 8 for sure
> 
> You can't call that a 10 there is meat in between the arrow and 10 ring
> 
> No wounder were seeing scores of 20/30 up on some of these ranges boys


Like I said I gave my opinion after they made the call. And they called it an 8. It's no biggie for me.


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## wv hoyt man (Feb 17, 2012)

Blow the pic up, I would give it a 10.
The arrow is touching the line. Look at the pic on the right.


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## skottyboi34 (Aug 19, 2012)

If it were MY arrow, I would have called it out. Jmo.


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## Double_lung8 (Jul 25, 2012)

I would call it in.


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## Unicron (Nov 26, 2012)

wv hoyt man said:


> Blow the pic up, I would give it a 10.
> The arrow is touching the line. Look at the pic on the right.


That was what I thought.

I'd be okay it they scored it out. (Or more, that a ref would score it out)

Hard to see in the picture, but I think on the 2nd pic, you can see the arrow going through the "ridge" that is the outer part of the line. Through, so touching the line, meaning it is in.

Arrows being hard to call like this really make me dislike the use of fat shafts in 3D. Shot fat 23 size arrows myself for a bit, but I think I'll just go back to wind-resistant small diameter again.


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## Babyk (Jul 5, 2011)

Yea it's a 8 all day dude


Spiked2kx said:


> Like I said I gave my opinion after they made the call. And they called it an 8. It's no biggie for me.


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## tmorelli (Jul 31, 2005)

Babyk said:


> Yea it's a 8 all day dude


Your screen must be higher resolution than mine.


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## Cheetah (Jan 20, 2004)

Can't see for sure from the pic's but if there is visible material between arrow and line it's an 8 if not a 10.


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## BowHuntnKY (Dec 10, 2008)

14.


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## grandd7 (Feb 25, 2010)

I call it in .


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## baller (Oct 4, 2006)

Unicron said:


> ...Arrows being hard to call like this really make me dislike the use of fat shafts in 3D. Shot fat 23 size arrows myself for a bit, but I think I'll just go back to wind-resistant small diameter again.


I tested this theory for myself a few seasons ago in my practice sessions over the course of a couple months. My three test shafts were Easton Fatboys, Easton lightspeeds, and ACCs. Of the three, the Fatboys were built for line cutting, the lightspeeds for speed, and the ACCs for an exact spine match.

There was less then a 2% difference in score among the 3, the higher score being the ACCs, the second higher being the Fatboys, the lightspeeds being the lowest. My theory behind this is a perfect spine match will be more accurate than a larger shaft but not by much. The light speeds were less consistent because of lack of FOC with an 80gr point.

This year i'm shooting GT Ultralight 400s, a good spine match with my current rig, and have not had any issues with lines....I'm either definitely in or definitely out. I'm testing Fatboys again on my backup rig as I have found an arrow recipie that allows for a good spine match and decent speed out of a fat shaft...but I am not sure I will change right away.


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## tmorelli (Jul 31, 2005)

baller said:


> I tested this theory for myself a few seasons ago in my practice sessions over the course of a couple months. My three test shafts were Easton Fatboys, Easton lightspeeds, and ACCs. Of the three, the Fatboys were built for line cutting, the lightspeeds for speed, and the ACCs for an exact spine match.


Personally, I'd say your results reflect the quality of the shaft more than anything else. I believe the ACC to be a far superior arrow to either of the others. 

I ran ACC for many years....and the only all-carbon arrows I've ever had outscore them on 3d (over many tracked rounds) are Triple X and X-cutters (definitely not spine matched).


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## robinofthehood (Jun 14, 2010)

If we were shooting for beer / fun, I'd be hard on you and say "OUT". If was a NTC or World I would call it a 10....


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## Fury90flier (Jun 27, 2012)

I'm of the opinion that if you have to ask, it's out.

based on the pic- it is not clearly touching the line- out


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## baller (Oct 4, 2006)

tmorelli said:


> Personally, I'd say your results reflect the quality of the shaft more than anything else. I believe the ACC to be a far superior arrow to either of the others.
> 
> I ran ACC for many years....and the only all-carbon arrows I've ever had outscore them on 3d (over many tracked rounds) are Triple X and X-cutters (definitely not spine matched).


99% of the time I'd agree with you. But with new tech and designs the other shafts are every bit as good now. And with less than 2% score difference, I'd say it was spine more than shaft quality. I checked my setups from those test in Archers Advantage, the Fatboys were marginal stiff, and the lightspeeds were very stiff....ACCs were optimal spine on the weak side of the range, which lends to be a very forgiving arrow.

I'll post up my findings later this summer. I do find it interesting that when the Pros shoot IBO and need speed, most go back to the ACE...one of the smallest diameter shafts available. Also funny to think that the ACC used to rule 3D, and before that was the X7 and XX75 so go figure.


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## tmorelli (Jul 31, 2005)

baller said:


> I do find it interesting that when the Pros shoot IBO and need speed, most go back to the ACE...one of the smallest diameter shafts available. Also funny to think that the ACC used to rule 3D, and before that was the X7 and XX75 so go figure.


What men's pros shoot ACE's for IBO in the last several years?

Side note, my version of history actually puts the aluminums in more recent history than the ACC as a dominant 3d arrow. The 2312 was the shaft to have 10-15 years ago....before that, 3-28/3-39/3-49/3-60


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## schmel_me (Dec 17, 2003)

Looking at the lower photo alone.. the right view. it looks in. looks to me like it got a sliver of the line remember 99.9% out is IN>


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## baller (Oct 4, 2006)

tmorelli said:


> What men's pros shoot ACE's for IBO in the last several years?
> 
> Side note, my version of history actually puts the aluminums in more recent history than the ACC as a dominant 3d arrow. The 2312 was the shaft to have 10-15 years ago....before that, 3-28/3-39/3-49/3-60


The two I can remember off the top of my head were Darren Christianberry and Dave Cousins (Dave not recently...been a few years) both easton shooters. I remember Darren in a Bow Junky interview saying that the ACE was the lightest arrow he could find that still gave a good spine match (of the arrows he was allowed to shoot). You'll see Pro Tours and ACEs and other small diameter shafts all the time at the Paris ASA....guys getting for Redding.


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## scott t (Jun 22, 2013)

I blew it up on my huge sreen at work. Theres meat in between arrow and line. Its a 8


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## NateUK (Dec 4, 2008)

It looks to me like it's touching the line, meaning it's a 10. If I was there in person maybe I could see if there was meat between the arrow and the line, but I don't see that in the pictures. I'm a tough arrow caller and that's what I see.


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## Trykon Mike (Aug 25, 2007)

The picture I see is a 10


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## T&A (Sep 26, 2013)

It's a 10 to me looks like it just touching my rule is if you can't distinctly call it out it must be in because there is no other choice


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## rohpenguins (Dec 2, 2012)

It looks like an 8 to me, I wish there were other views of the arrow. It's real hard to tell for 2 pics for sure.


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## TroyP (Feb 24, 2013)

Spiked2kx said:


> It was called out. I thought it was in but it was my arrow and I let the other guys call it. I see how it can go either way. Just me and a buddy wanted some opinions on it.


I had the exact same shot last weekend. It was my arrow so I let someone else call it and they called it out. I accepted it at that and moved on. Had I called that shot on someone elses arrow I would call it in.


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## Garceau (Sep 3, 2010)

Looks to be in to me, its clearing touching.


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## treeman65 (Nov 24, 2005)

Fury90flier said:


> I'm of the opinion that if you have to ask, it's out.
> 
> based on the pic- it is not clearly touching the line- out


Totally agree. If it was mine I would have been upset with the shot due to either way IBO scoring or ASA it's to far from the the 11 or 12. I can't stand when my arrows are just off


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## shootist (Aug 28, 2003)

Spiked2kx said:


> This was from Sunday the shoots over and scores are in. What would you guys call the bottom arrow. ]


Not enough info to call this one. You were there...what did you think?


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## ibanezJ7 (Nov 5, 2010)

I would call it an "8".


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## Luv2shoot3D (Feb 4, 2013)

You can't blow up the 3d target when looking at the target when you are there so if you got to look at it that close it's a 10!!!


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## jimb (Feb 17, 2003)

first look I see a 10, but can't be sure on that one without seeing it closer without the shadow.


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## 3-D Quest (Jan 26, 2007)

Pic makes it hard to call it out so, I would have called it in!
A better pic and I might have a different opinion.


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## J-Dubyah (Mar 6, 2010)

Even blown up its a 10.


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## 573mms (Jan 23, 2014)

Looks like a 10 in that pic


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

Magnified the 2nd pic and gave it a 10.....


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## BROX (Sep 29, 2005)

From the pic it looks like the shaft is touching the line so 10


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## shawn_in_MA (Dec 11, 2002)

I would call that a 10


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## dw'struth (Mar 14, 2008)

Fury90flier said:


> I'm of the opinion that if you have to ask, it's out.
> 
> based on the pic- it is not clearly touching the line- out


So....anytime a 2nd look is needed, it's out? LOL


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## criss-p-bacon (Sep 5, 2013)

i say out..looks like you can take a pen/pointy object, and follow the cut of the circle without the shaft getting in the way then id say it isnt intersecting the area needed to be in


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## Fury90flier (Jun 27, 2012)

dw'struth said:


> So....anytime a 2nd look is needed, it's out? LOL


LoL- please read again.


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## Cheetah (Jan 20, 2004)

Looking at the second posted pic it's a 10. There seems to be to much opinion on calling, the rules state touching the line, if you can't see material between line and arrow it's touching by definition.


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## dw'struth (Mar 14, 2008)

Fury90flier said:


> LoL- please read again.


No need. You said, "if you have to ask". If you have to take a second look, isn't the question being asked?


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## blade37defender (Jun 8, 2005)

baller said:


> The two I can remember off the top of my head were Darren Christianberry and Dave Cousins (Dave not recently...been a few years) both easton shooters. I remember Darren in a Bow Junky interview saying that the ACE was the lightest arrow he could find that still gave a good spine match (of the arrows he was allowed to shoot). You'll see Pro Tours and ACEs and other small diameter shafts all the time at the Paris ASA....guys getting for Redding.


I would honestly be surprised if there was 1% of the shooters at the Paris ASA shooting Pro Tours, X10's, or ACE's. Quite honestly, I'd say there will be less than .5% of shooters there with those arrows.

While proper spine does make a setup a bit more forgiving, when you're average shot is in the 36-44 yard range, I'd rather have a tuned, over-spined, fat line cutter than a tuned, properly spined, skinny arrow. I've shot my highest 3D scores with X-Cutters but my average over the past 10 years has probably been highest with the 22's. I'd say that is due to the extra speed I get out of the 22's, making a yardage mistake less critical. However, when I'm judging and executing my shots well, the X-Cutters are my first choice.


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## elitegirl500 (Jul 22, 2009)

Its In all day!!


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## bow4it83 (Oct 18, 2012)

It's out.


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## montigre (Oct 13, 2008)

Looks like a 10 from this vantage point--definately touching that line, but it is about as close as it gets to being out...


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## SET THE HOOK (Dec 30, 2004)

10 all day! Guys saying 8 would beg for that all day


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## mikecs4life (Sep 13, 2009)

In.


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## cdn 3-d (Oct 22, 2011)

I would score that an 8


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## Rielbowhunter (Jan 20, 2012)

its touching the line, 10


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## Dierte (Nov 18, 2007)

Ide call it a 10


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## sagecreek (Jul 15, 2003)

It's in and there is not any meat between the line and arrow. It's touching it. You got hosed.


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## J Whittington (Nov 13, 2009)

What do these, you make the call threads accomplish?


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## sagecreek (Jul 15, 2003)

J Whittington said:


> What do these, you make the call threads accomplish?


Show how bad people call arrows. lain:


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## ncsurveyor (May 12, 2009)

IrregularPulse said:


> I'd look closer from the bottom, but from those pics, call it out for myself. If it was another guy's arrow, I'd give it to him.


So it depends on who's arrow it is? Out is out and nobody should be given anything. This is the very reason I'm shooting fun rounds from now on and competing only in ASA. Too many "oh it's close enough"s beating the guys who are trying to do it right.


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## IrregularPulse (Sep 22, 2012)

ncsurveyor said:


> So it depends on who's arrow it is? Out is out and nobody should be given anything. This is the very reason I'm shooting fun rounds from now on and competing only in ASA. Too many "oh it's close enough"s beating the guys who are trying to do it right.


I only shoot fun rounds as well, thus why I'd give the benefit. To anyone. No depending who, but wouldn't take it for myself. Even if I was good enough, I wouldn't shoot in serious events. Too much drama. From what I read here, it's the lack of officials and obscure scoring lines and rules that cause the drama.


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## sagecreek (Jul 15, 2003)

I agree, I would call them all the same, mine or anyone else's.  :noidea:


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## rattlinman (Dec 30, 2004)

I saw another fella taking a picture of his arrow on Sunday, my only question is that my understanding is cell phones aren't allowed on the course?

And yes, it appears to be in the 10 line. Unfortunately you have some shooters out there that refuse to look at the glass half-full and only half-empty. If they can drag your score down then they don't have to good enough or lucky enough to win. And yes, some luck is always a factor.

I have worked with folks like that, they would rather make others look bad so they look good than to work hard and make themselves look better.


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## sagecreek (Jul 15, 2003)

I don't consider myself lucky if I catch the 10 or 12 line. I do however consider myself lucky if I barely catch the 8 on a bad shot or barely catch the target to avoid a zero. :wink:


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## powerguy (Jul 9, 2010)

Id call that an 8


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## WVTrophyhunter (Apr 29, 2008)

Thats why I think they need to change that touch or pushing rule. If its not atleast clearly cutting the line I dont think you should get it plain and simple. I look at it this way. If you take your car to a shop to have it fixed. You dont just want it barely fixed You want it all the way fixed. If they would change that rule it would stop alot of these kinds of calls. The group of guys I shoot with dont take these at all. If its not atleast cutting the line we dont take it.


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## dw'struth (Mar 14, 2008)

I don't think that would help.......at all. Then the conversation would be exactly the same, except we would be saying is it "cutting" instead of touching.


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## WVTrophyhunter (Apr 29, 2008)

I disagree,, You can plainly tell if an arrow is cutting the line. If it is in the line wouldnt that be cutting? Big difference. I dont mean to be sounding like a tool. I just think people are getting way to bent out of shape over something that can be fixed,It could be fixed by the ASA, IBO, the clubs we shoot at or even our groups we shoot with. They are taking the "touching or pushing" thing way out of context. Just like the pic in this thread. To me I would call that out but if it was Cutting the line the its in.. See my point?


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## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

No, I don't see your point.


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## Fury90flier (Jun 27, 2012)

Is there an official line thickness?


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## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

Line calling is a learned thing and it isn't something that is just black and white, this weekend two of us called on saturday and then we switched and the other two guys called on sunday. Saturday was called by two guys that shoot 3d on a regualar basis and sunday by two guys who one was at his second shoot of the year and the other guy was at his first shoot of the year. Both of them had trouble calling the arrows especially on the really close ones early in the round and by the second half of the round they were calling much better. They just needed to hear simple things such as "If you can't call it out then it is in" and " If there is no meat then it is in", There were a couple arrows early in the day that should have been called in but by the end of the day it was much smoother. 

Really it doesn't affect the outcome that much, because for the weekend we called 160 arrows in our group and there were only about 3 arrows all weekend that I think we called incorrectly for our group and that is pretty normal. My thing is when you look at a arrow for a good 30 seconds or a minute and you really can't tell either way then it is a arrow that should go to the shooter and once you get that in your head as a scorer and use the two thoughts I gave earlier scoring becomes much easier.


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## SARASR (Oct 30, 2009)

Fury90flier said:


> I'm of the opinion that if you have to ask, it's out.
> 
> based on the pic- it is not clearly touching the line- out



I could not have said it better!


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## WVTrophyhunter (Apr 29, 2008)

How is lined calling "learned'? Either its touching or its not. I have been shooting 3d archery since the 90's and its not rocket science. Ever think that if those three arrows you called incorrecty might have been cutting the line then it would have been alot easier to call and you would not have been wrong? Why would a call thats to close automatically go to the shooter? If you are calling arrows like you say then you are wrong IMO. Alot of good scores shot by people calling arrows like you do. I agree with fury90flier. If you have to ask then its out. If the arrow is cutting the line then you wouldnt have to take 30 seconds or a minute to look at it. You would plainly see it when you first walk up..


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## Fury90flier (Jun 27, 2012)

If you can't tell it goes to the shooter? That doesn't help the shooter become a better shooter.


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## WVTrophyhunter (Apr 29, 2008)

Fury90flier said:


> If you can't tell it goes to the shooter? That doesn't help the shooter become a better shooter.


Thank you!!!


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## dw'struth (Mar 14, 2008)

WVTrophyhunter said:


> I disagree,, You can plainly tell if an arrow is cutting the line. If it is in the line wouldnt that be cutting? Big difference. I dont mean to be sounding like a tool. I just think people are getting way to bent out of shape over something that can be fixed,It could be fixed by the ASA, IBO, the clubs we shoot at or even our groups we shoot with. They are taking the "touching or pushing" thing way out of context. Just like the pic in this thread. To me I would call that out but if it was Cutting the line the its in.. See my point?


You can "plainly tell" if the arrow is touching the line.....in theory. The exact same problems would arise if it were changed to "cutting" the line. Targets would still get holes shot in them, and arrows would still be tough to call. The rule in place is very cut and dry in theory. It's people that keep bringing up this "pushing" or "pulling" that confuse people. It's either touching, or it's not....

This "if you have to ask..." stuff is totally off base. What if I ask about my arrow because I want to be certain that I am not getting something that I don't deserve? If I think to myself it is a 12, but I ask a group member's opinion to be sure it should be called out?? I don't see the logic. If it is not in then it should be called out, not because I asked about it.


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## tmorelli (Jul 31, 2005)

WVTrophyhunter said:


> Thank you!!!


The point of any rule in competition is not to make the competitors better. It is to provide a level playing field and uniform standard for measurement against other competitors. 

Changing the rule from "touching" to "cutting" or "breaking" or even "inside out" does nothing but drive down the scores. All of them would be subject to the same arguments. 

Know the rules, play by the rules. Get better on your own time.


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## sagecreek (Jul 15, 2003)

tmorelli said:


> The point of any rule in competition is not to make the competitors better. It is to provide a level playing field and uniform standard for measurement against other competitors.
> 
> Changing the rule from "touching" to "cutting" or "breaking" or even "inside out" does nothing but drive down the scores. All of them would be subject to the same arguments.
> 
> Know the rules, play by the rules. Get better on your own time.


Exactly. Some just don't get it. :noidea:


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## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

When I first started shooting 3d back in 2007 I thought that the arrow had to touch the actual bulleseye inside the line and I didn't count any arrow that was cutting or touching only the line, I simply didn't know that the line was part of the 12 ring. Then I shot with a guy and he explained it to me and I started counting the arrows that touched the line. The first thing that came up was the puled line issue that I had never had to worry about when not scoring the line before and that took me a while to get used to because sometimes the when i walked up to the target the arrow was obviously 1/8 inch out but then when you looked closer the line was sucked into the arrow hole. I never had this issue when only scoring the actual 12 and not the line but that was cool because now the 12 ring was bigger. Then I started shooting with asa shooters on courses that had low back 12's and I learned what a connector area on the ibo side and the connector on the outside was all about. It took me a few shoots to get used to the little rectangular connector area and then I was good to go. Then there was the shot up area problem where you have to mentally create a line or even a connector area that should be there but it isn't because the foam is simply gone.

For you people who think you could just take a person off the street and stick them in your group and call the arrows not knowing any of the shooters in the group so there is no bias and get the proper line calls you are simply wrong, line calling and general scoring is something that experience makes you better at just like everything else in life.


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## rattlinman (Dec 30, 2004)

WVTrophyhunter said:


> I disagree,, You can plainly tell if an arrow is cutting the line. If it is in the line wouldnt that be cutting? Big difference. I dont mean to be sounding like a tool. I just think people are getting way to bent out of shape over something that can be fixed,It could be fixed by the ASA, IBO, the clubs we shoot at or even our groups we shoot with. They are taking the "touching or pushing" thing way out of context. Just like the pic in this thread. To me I would call that out but if it was Cutting the line the its in.. See my point?


Which line are you referring to? The inside line or the outside line? All ASA scoring lines have an inside line and a outside line.
By "cutting", do you mean an actual division of the line or just the arc of the shaft breaking the plane of the line??
On rough textured shafts that can actually "pull" the line inward, would you have to remove the arrow to see if the line was actually "cut" or just pulled into the hole?



Fury90flier said:


> If you can't tell it goes to the shooter? That doesn't help the shooter become a better shooter.


Huh? Could you please expand on how a 1/16" of an inch could you utilized as a teaching tool to coach an archer to become better? If a line-cutter being called "out" educates us to be better archers, then Levi should be shaking in his boots when he hears my name!! :wink:


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## dw'struth (Mar 14, 2008)

sagecreek said:


> Exactly. Some just don't get it. :noidea:


That is obviously the case. As far as making the shooter better  this is a competition we are talking about, not a practice session. Tmorelli said it very nicely......


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## Angler62002 (Mar 2, 2010)

I see 10


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## scott t (Jun 22, 2013)

All those calling this shot in. I want you to score for me on my shoots. LOL


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## Tallcatt (Jul 27, 2003)

I shoot in 15 to 20 state level ASA events and 2-3 ASA national Pro/Ams a year. I shoot the Super Sr. class now but I have shot Open C, Open B, and Sr. Open in ASA competition over the last 15 years. For the last 9 years I have been the Texas ASA State Director. From what I can see in the picture that arrow is a 10 and any group I have ever shot with would call that arrow a 10.

Here is a picture of me scoring arrows at an Texas ASA Federation state qualifier event this past weekend. As you can see I look at the arrows very closely before making a call. There was another arrow caller as well per ASA rules. On this particular target there are four 12's. My arrow, the 4 fletch on the right was the only one out of the 12. The arrow on the upper left was close but was still a 12.


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## oldschoolcj5 (Jun 8, 2009)

its a 10


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## Sean243 (Dec 15, 2011)

As near as I can tell from the available pictures there is zero foam between the outer edge of the scoring ring ring and the arrow shaft. That is a straightforward, black and white call as set forth by the rules,.... it's a 10.

If that arrow is even 1 mm. higher in the target, maybe less than that even, I bet it would end up being an 8.

I can't help but notice that the general tone coming from those calling that an 8, almost seems to imply that anyone who would call that arrow in, is a shooter trying to pad their score or worse, a cheater.... Really? At the very least they take a high and mighty stance and say something like, "I'd give you the 10 if you really wanted it, but I'd give myself an 8".

I'm almost at a loss of words here... Part of the definition of a cheater would include anyone who does not follow the rules, as well as, anyone who would take points away from another competitor who by the rules, rightfully earned those points. 

In a nutshell... The unsportsmanlike cheats here are not the guys calling that a ten but rather the guys that have a separate opinion, adverse of clearly stated rules, calling that arrow an 8.


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## STRICNINE (Oct 22, 2012)

This whole thing really reminds me of what Dana White says to all of his UFC fighters, "Never leave it in the judges hands".

Point is, if this arrow gets called in or out shouldn't matter, if it was a better shot there would be no contesting it. Only person to be upset with is ourselves, nobody else.


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## reylamb (Feb 5, 2003)

Still a 10?


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## Sean243 (Dec 15, 2011)

reylamb said:


> Still a 10?


Picture is a little blurry when you try and zoom in and the shadow doesn't help either. Just going off what I can see, it looks like there is just a tiny margin (although rather shot up) of foam between the outer edge of the line and the arrow shaft. 

8 from that view but I might feel different looking at it in person.

Now it's time for all those guys to jump on here and say stuff like, "It's a mile out", " not even close", and "it's almost a 5".... Hahaha


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## reylamb (Feb 5, 2003)

Sean243 said:


> Picture is a little blurry when you try and zoom in and the shadow doesn't help either. Just going off what I can see, it looks like there is just a tiny margin (although rather shot up) of foam between the outer edge of the line and the arrow shaft.
> 
> 8 from that view but I might feel different looking at it in person.
> 
> Now it's time for all those guys to jump on here and say stuff like, "It's a mile out", " not even close", and "it's almost a 5".... Hahaha


I would call it an 8, just by what I see.

I also know that what a camera "sees" is not what I see, and judging off a picture is never easy to do on close arrows, unless said picture is taken very close with a high quality camera and using the macro settings for really close shots.....otherwise the perspective is off, which makes it tough.


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## irishhacker (Sep 4, 2011)

In the photo, there appears to be a small margin of foam between the 10 ring and the arrow. By rules, this would be an 8. The shadows in the photos make it difficult to be sure.


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## Tfox1 (Dec 11, 2008)

Looks like it's touching to me. But hard to tell from a pic.


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## timothy funk (Jan 28, 2009)

At first I thought an 8. The second pic I thought there was no way I could call it anything but a 10. The last pic I would for sure call it a 8! An 8 it is.


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## DrumdudeLarry (Mar 22, 2008)

top picture looks out. bottom picture looks in.


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## salmon killer (Jun 19, 2011)

Stevie Wonder can see that's a 8


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## jimb (Feb 17, 2003)

still looks like a 10 to me.


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## BLAKEUSMC21 (Jan 22, 2014)

A horrible shot lol


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## WI-Curl-Arch (Mar 8, 2011)

I'd give ya a 10. If you gave me an 8 I would not complain.


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## irishhacker (Sep 4, 2011)

WI-Curl-Arch said:


> I'd give ya a 10. If you gave me an 8 I would not complain.


Bingo...best answer in the whole thread


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## Armed_AL (Jun 8, 2012)

Just out by the looks of it.


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## Mark1976 (Apr 12, 2012)

I have a feeling this thread will last a month!!!


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## Spiked2kx (Mar 3, 2013)

Going on over a month!!!


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## bonecollector76 (Apr 23, 2005)

Is that my arrow or yours?:wink:


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## shooter74 (Jul 7, 2005)

those of you that called it out you all need pair of glasses its in


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## Fury90flier (Jun 27, 2012)

nope, you need your prescription changed...

interesting...we were talking about this topic tonight discussing league/game night. We decided that it's clearly cut (25%+) or it's out...don't like it- next time, make the shot solid.


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## mjharp46 (May 7, 2012)

I agree that if you make a better shot there is no judgment needed. I have lost money on a call like this and it isn't fun but you can't get sour, and like was said you only have yourself as the shooter to blame if the judge calls it out. However, blowing it up with a zoom and then making the call is not possible on the range and you can't even use binoculars or any kind of magnification at the target to see if it's touching the line. That's why there is 4 people in the group, if 4 guys look at it and 3 call it out, it's out. I look at it as the shooter himself doesn't have a say on his own arrow so the other three guys look at it and two or more are gonna call it one way or the other or you get a range official.


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## sagecreek (Jul 15, 2003)

Fury90flier said:


> nope, you need your prescription changed...
> 
> interesting...we were talking about this topic tonight discussing league/game night. We decided that it's clearly cut (25%+) or it's out...don't like it- next time, make the shot solid.


Who is we? And do we need to start using "your" rules or the ones already established? :noidea:


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## Pincher (Jul 20, 2013)

it looks in, what I would call a jar licker, but it may be out, cant tell from the pic, real close


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## ba3darcher (Jan 13, 2005)

Fury90flier said:


> nope, you need your prescription changed...
> 
> interesting...we were talking about this topic tonight discussing league/game night. We decided that it's clearly cut (25%+) or it's out...don't like it- next time, make the shot solid.


Your game your rules but 99% out is 1% in.


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## nochance (Nov 27, 2008)

Fury90flier said:


> nope, you need your prescription changed...
> 
> interesting...we were talking about this topic tonight discussing league/game night. We decided that it's clearly cut (25%+) or it's out...don't like it- next time, make the shot solid.


OK your league your rules. but the problem is people making up interpretations for rules that already exist. Only needs to be touching the line. as said above 1% in must be touching. personally i can't tell by the pic. OP could you move the camera closer and take another shot?


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## Mark1976 (Apr 12, 2012)

Can not believe this one is "still going"!!! It's like the energizer bunny!!! Bum...bum...bum...bum...bum..........................................


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## Fury90flier (Jun 27, 2012)

nochance said:


> OK your league your rules. but the problem is people making up interpretations for rules that already exist. Only needs to be touching the line. as said above 1% in must be touching. personally i can't tell by the pic. OP could you move the camera closer and take another shot?


We all know what the rules are but it's threads like this that take the fun out of the game. We don't want to spend any real time trying to figure out IF it's touching the line or not....it's a significant clear cut or you don't get the point...don't like it- make a better shot next time. We're actually considering lines being the next lower point.


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## sagecreek (Jul 15, 2003)

Fury90flier said:


> We all know what the rules are but it's threads like this that take the fun out of the game. We don't want to spend any real time trying to figure out IF it's touching the line or not....it's a significant clear cut or you don't get the point...don't like it- make a better shot next time. We're actually considering lines being the next lower point.


That makes no sense. You would still have to determine if it's touching the line. lain:


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## Fury90flier (Jun 27, 2012)

if it doesn't make any sense, you just need to think about it a little more.


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## sagecreek (Jul 15, 2003)

Fury90flier said:


> if it doesn't make any sense, you just need to think about it a little more.


No I don't. You do. You are still going to have to make the close calls. Is it touching the line, 25% in (is it 24% in or 26% in :noidea, whatever. Inside out scoring only makes the ring smaller and gets people to shooting small diameter arrows instead of large diameter arrows.


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## Fury90flier (Jun 27, 2012)

nope, have no issues here...it's obviously in or it's not- there is no question....this is the point YOU don't get.


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## jimb (Feb 17, 2003)

i'm with Sage on this one, you still have to call a line


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## sagecreek (Jul 15, 2003)

jimb said:


> i'm with Sage on this one, you still have to call a line


For the life of me, I don't see how people can't realize that.


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## rlblevins2001 (Feb 22, 2008)

Looks like a 10 to me but not 100% on that. One thing I do know, 95% or more of the other shooters on the range that day would call it a 10. You're cheating yourself out of 2 points.


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## shooter74 (Jul 7, 2005)

Tallcatt said:


> I shoot in 15 to 20 state level ASA events and 2-3 ASA national Pro/Ams a year. I shoot the Super Sr. class now but I have shot Open C, Open B, and Sr. Open in ASA competition over the last 15 years. For the last 9 years I have been the Texas ASA State Director. From what I can see in the picture that arrow is a 10 and any group I have ever shot with would call that arrow a 10.
> 
> Here is a picture of me scoring arrows at an Texas ASA Federation state qualifier event this past weekend. As you can see I look at the arrows very closely before making a call. There was another arrow caller as well per ASA rules. On this particular target there are four 12's. My arrow, the 4 fletch on the right was the only one out of the 12. The arrow on the upper left was close but was still a 12.
> 
> View attachment 1917873



if you have to look that hard it has to be me...


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## VAHUNTER01 (Dec 6, 2010)

it is really hard to say by looking at the pics.
but according to IBO rules, if the arrow it touching any part of the line the shooter gets the higher score.


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## Hogwort (Aug 1, 2005)

Personally, around my area if you have to look and discuss that hard to make a call we would give the shooter the benefit of the doubt. Also I will never call my own arrow and I will accept whatever it's called. 
Hogwort.


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## shooter74 (Jul 7, 2005)

So I guess you guys were 5 yards hot it's in


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## Mbmadness (May 19, 2009)

When I blow up the pic , you can see a little meat in between your arrow and the 10 ring . I could see how it could go either way .


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