# Using a plunger and springy rest



## submarinokotbw (Aug 8, 2011)

I have just stared using a plunger and springy rest on my bow. I think i really like it. My effective range has increased by 50%, which is exciting to me. Despite the positive change i am not sure how to use it properly and if i am using it properly. I basically eyeballed it :embara:

I have set the plunger and rest to have the arrow center shot right down the middle of my string--again eyeballing. the Easton guide says it should be 1/16-1/8" off center for finger shooters. however my arrows seem to be right on at the distances i am shooting

Here is my setup
45.5# R/D longbow (recurve style aluminum riser with plunger and springy rest)
Draw 29.25" so draw weight approx 48#
3 fingers under, nock point 3/4" above center
Beman ICS 400 arrows 31.25" with 100gr gold tip inserts and 150gr field tips (so 250gr up front)
Point on is 22yds, and i am able to hit a milk jug with 4 arrows consistently at 45 yds

Have i stumbled onto the right setup? Or should i start over and do it like the guide says?

Thanks

Ben


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## Viper1 (Aug 21, 2003)

Ben -

If it works, you use it. Really is that simple.

The plunger is a tuning device and a compensator. 
The first part should be obvious, that latter means that it will compensate for VERY MINOR form errors. (note the caps).

The springy rests have been around for decades and they are either loved or disregarded. I'm in the latter camp. 

Most people vertically torque the string. 
With a standard flipper rest, there is solid vertical resistance. It's there for a reason. 
When you put that kind of torque on a rigid rest, you flex the arrow, and the fletch can usually compensate to a degree (been there, done that). 
On a springy rest, apply the same torque and the rest is moved downward, you are effectively changing your nocking point position. 

In more practical terms, when was the last time you saw a springy rest on an Olympic bow? 

Viper1 out.


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## grantmac (May 31, 2007)

Are you using a springy or a plunger? They are mutually exclusive in their operation.

-Grant


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## Viper1 (Aug 21, 2003)

Grant - 

I was thinking about that after I posted, since they both use the same hole.
(Unless some creative type came up with a new version.)

Viper1 out.


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## MoSportsman (Mar 21, 2014)

I am working on the same thing on a new Martin Panther. The springy rest I dug out of my 30 year accumulation of archery gear has the springy mounted on the end of a tension adjustable plunger. I probably have mine set a little farther off center while I am still trying to find proper spine on my arrows. I have already found the broadheads I want to use so I am trying to fit them to a 200 grain point and have given up on 400 arrows and ordered 500. I have tried to find the middle as far as plunger tension and I have ordered a set of different weight springs. 

I had that thought too with the spring I have when I set that heavy 200 grain pointed arrow on it the rest sags a bit. I was told I probably have a 20 oz spring so I am thinking that the 30 oz (the heaviest available) Is what I will try next. The springy has been shot with a lot heavier arrows than I am shooting I am sure, I am just thinking I want to solidify that up and down factor so I know my nock point is correct.

Tom


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## submarinokotbw (Aug 8, 2011)

It is the Tim Strickland springy rest/Plunger. I have been shooting his stick for about a month now. The springy rest is attached to the plunger. I think its kinda cool... maybe im crazy. Here it is...

















grantmac said:


> Are you using a springy or a plunger? They are mutually exclusive in their operation.
> 
> -Grant


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## Viper1 (Aug 21, 2003)

Ben -

From my perspective, too many variables at one time. 
You basically have two plungers and a variable height arrow rest.

Like I said, if it works for you, great - keep using it.
I wouldn't go near it. 

Oddly enough, the arm appears to be angled down? 
They are usually angled slightly up.

Viper1 out.


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## MoSportsman (Mar 21, 2014)

That is pretty much exactly what mine looks like. I have the tension adjustment set screw screwed in flush with the top of the knurled knob though. My spring is curved and the arrow nestles down in the curved spring arm.


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## Sanford (Jan 26, 2009)

submarinokotbw said:


> It is the Tim Strickland springy rest/Plunger. I have been shooting his stick for about a month now. The springy rest is attached to the plunger. I think its kinda cool... maybe im crazy. Here it is...
> View attachment 1918247
> 
> View attachment 1918248


I've seen pictures of that, but always wonder, which spring is the adjusted tension? It would seem adjust-ably functional if the plunger spring would be dominate, but then, that assumes the springy is stronger or the plunger would not work. Other way around, if the springy is the plunger action, then the plunger is not working. Yes, they seem mutually exclusive, but I think the purpose of that rest is for the springy to just be a soft rest and the plunger be the adjustment.


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## MoSportsman (Mar 21, 2014)

Yes, interesting thing was when I pulled mine out of mothballs my plunger spring tension set screw was screwed all the way in,essentially taking it out of the equation. I am sure I shot with it years ago but I know I did not really know how to use it, or make it benefit my shooting. I shot a compound with fingers for a long time before I gave in and got a release. I have been gaining a lot of knowledge lately to get back into recurve shooting and understanding a lot more about what I have been doing imperfectly all these years.


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## grantmac (May 31, 2007)

I see whats going on here.

The benefit of the springy is that it provides vertical compliance in the rest. This helps with 3 under and stringwalking to dampen out the tendency of the arrow to bounce on the rest. A rest which is too firm can create a bounce which then requires a higher nocking point (like shooting off the shelf). You DON'T want to select a spring which is so stiff that it eliminates this action.
The springy also tends to reduce your POD which can be a benefit.

You DO need to have it set-up with some offset. I find that getting the string aligned with the inside edge of the arrow when viewed from behind works best for me. Otherwise you really aren't using the horizontal compliance build into the rest and that is reducing the forgiveness of the whole set-up.

Sanford is right about the plunger only having an effect if the springy is either really heavy or you have already used all of it's available travel. I'd lock out that function and tune just the springy.

-Grant


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## MoSportsman (Mar 21, 2014)

Yes, I was thinking the same thing. Tune without plunger in the mix. I just got a new 25 oz spring in the mail today along with 30 oz. I installed the 25oz and there is still a little flex as the weight of the arrow is lowered into the rest. The 30oz may make that go away completely and essentially negate the purpose and benefit from the spring. 

So maybe I keep the 25oz on and tune with that, make sure my arrows are the proper length and tuning fletched to bare pretty much flying in the same hole. Then I could bring back the plunger tension into play to fine tune further from there???? Change only one thing at a time....that is the mantra of bow tuning I do believe.


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## submarinokotbw (Aug 8, 2011)

Viper1 said:


> Ben -
> 
> If it works, you use it. Really is that simple.
> 
> ...


Viper,

Im new to archery and I have never seen olympic bow setups :embara:

Im not really understanding the concept of vertical torque. Is that putting pressure on the rest downwards, pushing the arrow essentially into the rest?
If i am to understand what you are saying here correctly, that would mean that it would affect the vertical impact and tuning of the bow on a springy rest because it is not rigid to resist the pressure of the arrow and your vertical torque would not be a controllable factor in drawing the bow? Im having a hard time picturing this with a 3 under draw...

Thanks for the input as always. there is so much i dont understand....


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## MoSportsman (Mar 21, 2014)

I am assuming the different spring sizes are made primarily for different arrow weights and along with that one would work better than another with different point weight also. The amount of downward pressure allowed is controlled by the size spring used. The flex of the spring (coiled part) left to right also changes depending on the size of the spring used. Both of these actions if not controllable should be pretty much consistent. So the plunger spring tension would really only offer a softening effect from that point.


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## Sanford (Jan 26, 2009)

MoSportsman said:


> Yes, I was thinking the same thing. Tune without plunger in the mix.


A lot of folks tune initially with the plunger blocked (full spring tension or toothpick inside), then, bring the plunger into action later. I know this works best for me. This prevents you from tuning "off the plunger" and allows you set it back to the minimal setting needed after initial tune is accomplished.


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## Viper1 (Aug 21, 2003)

Ben -

That's exactly it. 

In a perfect would, the fingers begin perpendicular to the string and there's no up or down pressure on the arrow. The only weight on the rest is the arrow itself - and that's a constant.

In the real world, things are a little different. While we might (and should) start with the fingers perpendicular to the string, but the natural "torque" of the forearm results in a slight downward angle of the fingers at anchor. In a lot of cases, that can push the arrow into the rest. If the rest is too weak (like the springy rest), it will lower the arrow and in effect act as raising the nocking point.

A little give on the rest is probably OK, but I have a feeling the springy has a little too much. 
Again, you won't see it n on an Olympic bow. 

Viper1 out.


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## grantmac (May 31, 2007)

Big difference in dynamics between an Olympic bow shot split fingered from a low anchor and someone shooting barebow 3under or stringwalking from a high anchor. You most definitely WANT a rest with compliance in the vertical direction for barebow use.
Some of the best barebow scores of all time were set with a springy using fairly light springs.

Even the magnetic flipper rests currently used by all world-level barebow shooters have a fair amount of vertical compliance. One that will work just fine on an Oly bow gets trashed really quick due to their short, rigid, thin wires.

-Grant


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## Roger Savor Sr (Feb 16, 2014)

Out of curiosity, where do you guys happen to find these "Springy" rests?.......I've been interested in trying one for a while, thanks.


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## Viper1 (Aug 21, 2003)

Grant - 

You mean like the "wires" on the AAE Free Flight or the Champion II?
Even the $2.50 plastic Hoyt Super rest is designed to have minimal flex.
Except for the really cheap flippers, those "wires" ain't all that flimsy. 

Sorry, I'm not buying it. I can and have (both deliberately and unfortunately inadvertently) put enough downward pressure on a nock to cause a considerable flex in the arrow while at anchor, and therefore at release. That's a bit more pressure than the string will exert due to uneven limb forces. 

... and the OP is shooting 3 under the nock, not string walking 3" under the arrow.
The dynamics there aren't that different from split. 

Viper1 out.


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## 2413gary (Apr 10, 2008)

Just my take.
Any flipper type rest is rigid your nocking point is above the center so your arrow is traveling down into the rest. So the arrow has no choice but to hop off the rest. Which will give you a small amount of false cast or a bigger arc out to your point on equals bigger gaps between 0 and point on. With the springy or any type rest with downward movement (Bowdoodle, Bomar Blade type) the arrow will act like a higher nock but still with a Bullethole through paper. The movement of the spring will also be a more forgiving downward as left and right like a button. 
You don't see them on Olympic bows because its hard to get spin wings to come off clean. The springy with a plunger is manufactured by Tim Strictland (USA Olympic coach) must be something there? It was also the first arrow rest to be shot setting the First perfect score on a NFAA hunter round 560. Like Grant said it hold a boat load of National field and World records. 
Gary


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## Viper1 (Aug 21, 2003)

Gary -

Why exactly would spin wings be harder to come off a springy rest than hard(er) vanes? 
Horizontal paradox should carry the tail of the arrow far enough away from the rest to negate any problems there.

The false cast or bounce is a bit of fallacy because the same forces that would cause the bounce on a rigid rest will cause a depression on the springy. 
There's probably an optimal amount of flex that the arm of a rest should have in a perfect world (meaning from a shooting machine), but with a human behind the wheel, things change really fast. I'm sure you and others can and will come up with theories to the contrary and that's why I started my first post in this thread with "If it works, you use it". I've used them 40 years ago and more recently, and found then to make matters worse, not better.

BTW - The same guys who set those records would have done it with any rest, and almost any arrow or bow. That same argument can be (and has been) made for just about any piece of equipment at one time or another and would be equally as meaningless to any one except the guy profiting by it. 

Viper1 out.


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## 2413gary (Apr 10, 2008)

Tony 
The Horizontal paradox does not carry the arrow away from the spring enough to negate the problem. The taper of vanes and feathers at the beginning help ride over the spring and not make as much contact as the spin wing that is not tapered as much. As the fallacy of false cast or the depression on the springy. I can tune my bow to shoot a bullet hole with a springy and a flipper both arrows the same speed the flipper will have a three to four yard point on farther and at 25 yards have a 1/8" bigger gap than the springy. I have been shooting the springy for 40 years you must be as old as me lol. As for the records they were shot with a springy not a flipper and button there's a good reason Forgiving.


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## submarinokotbw (Aug 8, 2011)

got mine at www.stricklandsarchery.com



Roger Savor Sr said:


> Out of curiosity, where do you guys happen to find these "Springy" rests?.......I've been interested in trying one for a while, thanks.


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## submarinokotbw (Aug 8, 2011)

Ahhh... that made sense! Thanks Grant.



grantmac said:


> I see whats going on here.
> 
> The benefit of the springy is that it provides vertical compliance in the rest. This helps with 3 under and stringwalking to dampen out the tendency of the arrow to bounce on the rest. A rest which is too firm can create a bounce which then requires a higher nocking point (like shooting off the shelf). You DON'T want to select a spring which is so stiff that it eliminates this action.
> The springy also tends to reduce your POD which can be a benefit.
> ...


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## grantmac (May 31, 2007)

I've gone away from the Spig ZT over to the AAE specifically because the wire is thinner and more compliant. Yes I can tell a difference in the tunes and overall forgiveness of the bow. Especially shooting the bunny targets in WA Field, a target which causes a lot of problems.

Tony,
How competitive were you in Barebow? Records, wins, etc?

-Grant


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## Roger Savor Sr (Feb 16, 2014)

submarinokotbw said:


> got mine at www.stricklandsarchery.com


Thanks for the response. Also, what weight spring is everyone recommending to accomplish smaller gaps? Thanks, again.


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## Viper1 (Aug 21, 2003)

Gary -

You kinda proved my point. The two examples, false cast and spring depression cause the opposite effects. 
My point was that both can be misleading, not that both produce effects in the same direction. 
You suggested that one causes a false high and I suggested one causes a false low.
The reality is that both can be tuned out.

The fletch issue is irrelevant as the fletch is no where near the rest as the arrow passes.
Kinda archery 101.

Grant - 

I thought you were above that type of "argument". 
I was mistaken.

I think you can tell the caliber of man buy the fights he chooses to get into.
Rests are something I don't really worry about. 
The just don't make that much of a difference. 

Viper1 out.


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## MoSportsman (Mar 21, 2014)

You can also buy them from Pat Norris

more specifically

http://patnorrisarchery.com/web_specials/arrow_rests.htm


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## 2413gary (Apr 10, 2008)

Tony 
If the arrow is no where near the rest as it passes by can you then tell me why the bottom feather wears faster. 

And if the rest is Irrelevant why don't Olympic shooters just shoot off the shelf


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## 2413gary (Apr 10, 2008)

Roger the weight of the spring just helps tune arrow flight. The smaller gaps that I see are when I shot a wire flipper the thicker the wire I would use the bigger the gap was. If you gap looking at the arrow on the target or down below the target this difference will be very small. The smaller gap I see is between the spot and the arrow in the window of the bow. Not focusing on the arrow but the gap. The difference was only 1/16" to an 1/8" but it was Definitely smaller.
Gary


Roger Savor Sr said:


> Thanks for the response. Also, what weight spring is everyone recommending to accomplish smaller gaps? Thanks, again.


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## Viper1 (Aug 21, 2003)

Gary -

Come on, we both know you know better - or at least should. 

The bottom "fletch" only wears faster if the arrow is over spined and "tuned" (forced) to appear to be flying correctly. 
At least with a decent rest. 

"Olympic" shooters have used everything from $2.50 plastic rests to "hard" rests with a number of adjustments that cost a bit more (such as the AAE Free Flight). 
Neither have proven to be superior, in the right hands of course. Your inference was disingenuous at best. 

Viper1 out.


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## J. Wesbrock (Dec 17, 2003)

Grant and Gary are right on the money. Besides, with Gary's long list of NFAA national championships and Tim Strickland's history as a winning Olympic coach (as in the actual Olympics, not just people shooting recurves with sights), I listen when they speak.


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## Sanford (Jan 26, 2009)

JW, I ain't gonna get in the middle of this and I don't shoot barebow but do shoot with them. Back when the springy started showing up on the message board(s), I still had a question - if a necessary/helpful aid, "why are they not on every bow?". Why did they not remain the convention? The convention is currently flipper and plunger. So, it begs the question, why did this springy rest stay in desk drawers for the past several decades until it was married to a plunger? What's changed in conventional thought on this that wasn't known years ago?


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## 2413gary (Apr 10, 2008)

Tony 
Sorry for being disingenuous I was just kidding when I called you old

Gary


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## J. Wesbrock (Dec 17, 2003)

Sanford, 

There's nothing of which to get in the middle. Gary has been setting up and shooting springy rests to win at the highest levels of field archery in this country for decades. If I want to know the ins and outs of that type of rest, he's the guy I'd call. Knowing what you know is important, but knowing what you don't know is even more important.


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## 2413gary (Apr 10, 2008)

Nothing changed the springy plunger type has been around for 30 plus years. and the springy nonplunger type in the Barebow Bowhunter group it has been equal to the button and flipper.


Sanford said:


> JW, I ain't gonna get in the middle of this and I don't shoot barebow but do shoot with them.  Back when the springy started showing up on the message board(s), I still had a question - if a necessary/helpful aid, "why are they not on every bow?". Why did they not remain the convention? The convention is currently flipper and plunger. So, it begs the question, why did this springy rest stay in desk drawers for the past several decades until it was married to a plunger? What's changed in conventional thought on this that wasn't known years ago?


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## Viper1 (Aug 21, 2003)

Sanford - 

To make matters worse, does EVERY barebow shooter use a "springy" rest, or just the ones that drank that particular brand of cool-aid? 
Yeah, the several I have are still in my archery junk drawer.

It's the same marketing BS we hear all the time, "Joe Blow, National, International and Cosmic champ used a Whatsamacallit 5000" and it becomes all the rage (in some circles).
Like I said, there are still guys in the Olympics using a $2.50 plastic rest, too bad they don't know any better, huh? 

I think it takes a certain level of maturity to realize that for 99.99% of us, minor equipment changes are the last thing that needs addressing. 

Viper1 out.


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## Sanford (Jan 26, 2009)

2413gary said:


> Nothing changed the springy plunger type has been around for 30 plus years. and the springy nonplunger type in the Barebow Bowhunter group it has been equal to the button and flipper.


Sure, I guess that's what my question about it was about. I'm later to archery, but I've seen more of those things in the bins than on the bows. Sure, have seen some on bows. But, at the same time, that still begs why I would buy and use one over the conventional setup. I could say Gary won a world championship with one, but then I could say an Olympic gold medal was won with a plastic stick-on. That pudding proves it's the archer and not the rest. Many can prove that by their inability to keep that little arm from being knocked off the plastic rest.

If it's all due to the differences between barebow and non-barebow, then I defer, but then, I don't see all top notch barebow shooters using them either.


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## 2413gary (Apr 10, 2008)

Tony send them to me I will put them to work


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## grantmac (May 31, 2007)

In fixed-anchor BB archery (BH and Trad) the springy has a definite advantage which is known and used by the top competitors in that division.
Likewise WA BB shooting is a different game as well. One where having an adjustable plunger is a benefit to compensate for the wide range of crawls used.
This is NOT Oly shooting. The tune is different and the equipment is different.

Tony, I respect your opinion on a lot of matters but there comes a point where you have to actually have some experience to start throwing it around like fact. Gary has that experience and he's more than willing to back it up with the titles and records. Where are yours?

-Grant


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## BarneySlayer (Feb 28, 2009)

2413gary said:


> And if the rest is Irrelevant why don't Olympic shooters just shoot off the shelf


Because I'm nowhere good enough to qualify for the olympics....


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## Banana Tree (Jul 14, 2014)

Sorry to bring up an old thread, but I would like to put some missing perspective on the springy AND plunger rest set-up, because after reading this thread there is a lot missing from the discussion, the point being that this set up is still valid today and here is why: The springy, in conjunction with the nock, tunes out porpoising. The plunger, when adjusted correctly, tunes out fish tailing. There was a well known article in the 1980's called "How to tune your bow" which was a bible at the time. I am really sorry I have forgotten the author, because he deserves much credit. I only remember that he was an aerospace engineer. Anyways, the ultimate test flight for the "perfect tune" is a bareshaft shot at 60 yards. The bare shaft will fly as accurately as the fletched shaft when perfectly tuned. Even a half-wavelength of error over 60 yards will be quite visible, as the arrow will sail many yards off course (warning: dangerous). This method requires perfect finger release also, which does not always happen. I have my doubts that "paper tuning" is so discerning as such a bare shaft test, and having drunk of the springy/plunger "kool aid", argue that this tuning is more accurate for the archer that cares, simply because very small "tweaks" are possible to get the finger-released arrow flying perfectly.

A diaper pin (stainless steel device used on cloth wrapped around a baby's rear prior to invention of "Pamper") can be used to make a springy. Cut the pin such that the round springy part and about 3/4" of straight part remain, then bend the straight part up at the end to hold your arrow. Pliers are the tool of choice for such customization. Attach to the plunger button thru the round part of the pin, bolt both to the bow, and tune accordingly. As a further note of historical significance, the perfectly tuned arrow will of course not slap the bow in any way. This can be determined by spraying Desenex athletes foot spray across the face of the bow prior to shooting an arrow, and then observing if any contact was made by either looking at the bow or smelling the arrow. Repeat as many times as necessary...


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