# Heavy hunting arrow/broadhead recommendation.



## AJ Peacock (Dec 29, 2011)

Hi all, first post hope it's in the right place.

I've been away from bow hunting for a decade and have decided to put the rifle away for a couple years and do some Elk hunting in Colorado (grew up there).

I used to be a pretty fair shot with a bow (won a couple 3d leagues years ago shooting a Hoyt Pro-Hunter),

Wow have bows/arrows changed in the last 10 years.

I'm in the process of upgrading my bow to a Mathews Z7 Extreme (still shooting other bows, but currently like the way this one shoots). 
I'll be shooting some Hoyts tonight after work to compare with the Mathews. 

I'll be shooting around 64lbs at 29". 
I've done a ton of reading and tend to agree with the Dr. Ashbury school of thought around heavy arrows and momentum. 
I don't have any experience with FOC, but it makes sense to me.

So my question, what arrows/broadheads should I be investigating? I'd like to to get a heavy COI fixed blade broad head, at 15% FOC if not more and at least 500gr arrow (600+gr would be OK as well). I want the shaft to be smaller than the broadhead for increased penetration as well.

Since I'm starting from scratch, I'd like to set the bow up for heavy arrows and use them for everything. 

Many years ago, I was elk hunting with SUPER light, overdraw arrows and made a perfect shot on a nice bull, quartering away. I hit the actual tuft of hair I was aiming at (4yds away) and the arrow deflected off a rib and 'skidded' along the rib cage, under it's 'arm pit'. I tracked a drop of blood in his right hoof print every 50yds for 6 hours, straight uphill for 4 miles, before I lost the light. I'm completely set on a heavy arrow with COI broadhead and appreciate your input.

Thanks, and Merry Christmas,
AJ


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## GregBS (Oct 30, 2010)

I'd personally put this in the hunting section since it is a bowhunting related question, but here's my opinion.

For a Z7X at 65lbs, 29DL: 29" Easton ST Axis Nano .300 spine, 75gr brass HIT insert, 125gr broadhead of choice, and 3 Bohning Blazer vanes puts you at 538gr total weight, about perfect spine, 16.5% FOC and 68 KE with .57 momentum at ~239fps. This also keeps the number of available broadheads high for you personal preference and allows for easy field point practice as most shops only carry up to 125gr FPs. That should just about pass through a cinder block. J/K, but seriously, that's a good hitting combo.

You can do away with the brass HIT insert just use a 175gr - 190gr head instead as the standard HIT insert weighs 16gr. It would make field point practice more difficult because FPs that heavy are not readily available

There are tons of good Cut On Contact heads out there in many different designs and price ranges.

Personal COC head recommendations:

Magnus Stingers / Buzzcuts with or without bleeder blades
Magnus Snuffer SS
G5 Montec or Montec CS
NAP Hellrazors

Trocar tipped heads (Not what you asked for but proven designs):

Any Muzzys (MX-3 125gr are all steel)
NAP Thunderheads 
Slick Tricks (another all steel design)

I like Trocar tipped designs more personally and they do reduce the "skidding down the side of the animal" factor on quartering shots.


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## GregBS (Oct 30, 2010)

I too took a considerable amount of time off from bowhunting and the last bow I owned before my Destroyer 340 was a 1994 Martin Pantera. Considerable difference in equipment now. I never shot a carbon arrow until 2009 either. I was still using my old XX75 2317s until I tried the Axis arrows. I'll never go back now.


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## AJ Peacock (Dec 29, 2011)

Greg, Thanks for the Info, it is appreciated.

AJ


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## AJ Peacock (Dec 29, 2011)

Greg, 

I think I'll try the 175gr VPA Penetrator (2 blades) and just order some heavier field points, that way I can use the standard HIT inserts.

Thanks again,

AJ


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## GregBS (Oct 30, 2010)

I forgot about the VPAs. I like their heads. Simple, durable, and get the job done. What are you planning to hunt with this setup? The stuff you are looking at will destroy a whitetail shoulder, pass through an elk in most cases and probably drop a moose in it's tracks.


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## AJ Peacock (Dec 29, 2011)

I'll be hunting elk this fall. Typical rut hunting in the timber. The funny thing about penetration, I've never heard anyone complain about too much.

Thanks again for the info. What software do you use/recommend for determining arrow stuff?

Thanks,
AJ


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## GregBS (Oct 30, 2010)

Timber elk. Sounds like a good time.

Best software I've found is On Target! 2 from www.pinwheelsoftware.com Very accurate ballistic and spine calculations.


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## super* (Jan 26, 2008)

In my oppinion speed kills. An arrow traveling at 310fps is more deadly than an arrow at 260fps no matter the weight. Its basic kenetics if you think about it. 200grs heavier of an arrow does not make the amount of momentum you would gain to lose 50fps worth it. Things have changed over the years there are new studies out there that show shooting a 350gr arrow at 310fps is more deadly than a 600gr arrow at 260fps. Its the carrying of momentum. Heres and example roll a marble down and a steel bearing down a sloped track if the drops of the marble and bearing are exactly the same both objects will cross the line at the same time. The bearing is obviouly heavier than the marble but they carry the same momentum. There is all the evidance you need. Yes a 600gr arrow at 280fps would be more efectve than a 350gr arrow at 280fps.


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## GregBS (Oct 30, 2010)

super* said:


> In my oppinion speed kills. An arrow traveling at 310fps is more deadly than an arrow at 260fps no matter the weight. Its basic kenetics if you think about it. 200grs heavier of an arrow does not make the amount of momentum you would gain to lose 50fps worth it. Things have changed over the years there are new studies out there that show shooting a 350gr arrow at 310fps is more deadly than a 600gr arrow at 260fps. Its the carrying of momentum. Heres and example roll a marble down and a steel bearing down a sloped track if the drops of the marble and bearing are exactly the same both objects will cross the line at the same time. The bearing is obviouly heavier than the marble but they carry the same momentum. There is all the evidance you need. Yes a 600gr arrow at 280fps would be more efectve than a 350gr arrow at 280fps.


Where to start, where to start...

First of all, take the KE BS out of this. It has no real usefulness in bow hunting. Slug ft/s (AKA momentum) is all that really matters. No matter what arrow you shoot KE only changes about 1.5 ft/lbs between light and heavy arrows. KE is a good way to measure the total energy available in a bow, not what is best for an arrow. 

Slug ft/s is a great way to determine how much penetration energy is there. Example: A bicyclist traveling at 20mph hits you. You get knocked over and the biker lands on top of you. You are both hurt but will probably walk away. Now get hit by a car doing 15mph. You are going to the hospital with broken bones.

Arrow A 350gr at 310 generates .48p (p = unit of momentum) at 0 ft and will bleed down to .45p at 30 yards.
Arrow B 550g at 245 generates .59p at 0 ft and will bleed down to .56p at 30 yards. This was chosen because it assumes the use of the same bow and the same 73 ft/lbs KE.

Arrow B has 23% more slug ft/s than arrow and maintains .11 more down range. These look like small number on paper but I promise you, the difference is very noticable on big game. The OP has the right idea about his arrows.

Ask anyone who hunts big game what they shoot for an arrow. The traditional guys get pass through shots all the time and what do they shoot? Heavy and slow arrows. Please don't make be break out the higher math functions to completely explain why your argument has little merit.

Your bearing/marble argument is also a failure because you obviously have no idea of the math involved.


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## GregBS (Oct 30, 2010)

Ok, I probably sounded like an ***hole in the last post. Here is a better way to explain total energy: http://www.thudscave.com/npaa/articles/howhard.htm

And penetration http://www.alaskafrontierarchery.com/Articles.html

I will never be of the fast/light arrow camp and the arguments on that link explain why.


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## AJ Peacock (Dec 29, 2011)

GregBS said:


> Ok, I probably sounded like an ***hole in the last post. ....


Greg, 

From an un-biased observers point of view, you didn't. You've been very helpful. As I stated in my initial post, I'm in firm agreement with Dr. Ashby. I've seen the effect on penetration of light bullets and speed vs heavy bullets with less speed. I have a BS in Applied Mathematics / Computing and understand completely the difference between KE and Momentum, KE is a great measurement to use when comparing BOWS since it stays fairly constant regardless of arrow weight (within reason), KE is less concerned with the weight of an object because it uses the *square* of the velocity in it's calculation. KE is much less relevant when discussing penetration. What arrow an archer chooses to shoot out of his bow, determines it's usefulness for his intended purpose. Using KE to talk about hunting arrows is a bit like using MPG to talk about cars. it's only one measurement, that doesn't tell the entire story. 

Just remember, Newton had all this figured out hundreds of years ago. According to Isaac's second law of motion, Force is equal to the change in MOMENTUM over time. If you want to apply a force to an animal by the use of a broadhead, I'd recommend having some Momentum available to spend on that animal. 

Happy New Year,
AJ


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## Todzilla (Feb 27, 2005)

Well as I'm mathematically challenged compared to AJ and Greg this is what I do. 

I use to shoot 70#'s with a 478 gr arrow coc head any deer i hit I had complete pass Thur's on buck i took out the right shoulder and broke the left leg upon exit. Due to a shoulder injury I had to drop my poundage down to 60# still same arrow weight but lighter spine .400 instead of .300 (Easton Axis) . Shoot a deer quartering away and the arrow entered behind the rib cage went through the liver lungs and heart. It didn't exit tho no blood trail but only ran 50 yards and i watched it drop. 

The speed difference was very noticeable in the 10# change but I still shoot my broad heads to 40 yards accurately.


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## The Arrow Guru (Feb 9, 2005)

My set up is this:
27" Harvest Time HT-2 shaft
10 grain GT insert
20 grain PDP insert weight adapter
2 X 30 grain weights
125 grain broad head
6" wrap
3 X 3" fusion vanes
Easton 3-D super nock
478 grain total arrow weight
18.5% FOC
You can see there is a lot of possibilities wit this kind of set up. I use the 350 spine but if you wanted even more arrow weight and higher FOC you could go with the 300 shaft and add another 30 grain weight. Do not order the 50 grain weights because they will not fit in a standard .246 shaft.
You can also get a really good arrow out of a Easton FMJ and use the 75 grain brass HIT insert and a 125 grain broad head. Good luck.


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## AJ Peacock (Dec 29, 2011)

Thanks Bigrnyrs,

I downloaded a trial version of On Target 2 and have been playing with all kinds of "could be's", your info helps with what actually can be.

Can you describe your 6" wrap? What do they accomplish?

Thanks,
AJ


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## The Arrow Guru (Feb 9, 2005)

AJ Peacock said:


> Thanks Bigrnyrs,
> 
> I downloaded a trial version of On Target 2 and have been playing with all kinds of "could be's", your info helps with what actually can be.
> 
> ...


My 6" wrap is made by a company called "Give'em the Shaft Archery" It only weighs 1 grain per inch. So pretty light compared to most wraps. What does it accomplish? It makes my arrows look really sexy! I also name all my arrows, I think that helps to! Other than that they do nothing. I like wraps because of the look, seems to make vanes stick better and makes it easier to clean shafts and refletch. It does nothing as far as performance. I have this pic I took in Illinois this year, you can see my wrap fletch combo.


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## AJ Peacock (Dec 29, 2011)

Thanks, a nice bright wrap would let me find my arrow after I miss :wink:

BTW: Nice Buck!

AJ


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## The Arrow Guru (Feb 9, 2005)

It's hard to tell in the pic but I use a solid white wrap and three flo green vanes. I used to use all white, and have for 15 years, but this year I did this in tribute to my wife. Her favorite color is green. Her name is Maranda and we all call her Rannie Bell. I named my #1 arrow Rannie Bell and it killed 7 deer this year. 5 does, 1 GA buck and that IL buck.


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## rayzor43 (Apr 8, 2011)

Heavy heads penetrate! I compared several weights one day at 30yds using the same set up and got progressively deeper penetration (several inches) between 125, 150s and 175s. Ended up deciding on 125s when I was on the edge of a field or 150s in the woods with that set up.


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