# BHFS ONLY THREAD: Do you use your level as a sight?



## ccwilder3 (Sep 13, 2003)

I have a level but I don't use it for aiming. I tried it and found I did better stacking the pins. As long as there is no fixed point on your level you are compliant so I have no problem with those who do use their level legally.


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## V-STROM 650 (Feb 23, 2010)

I don't use the level for sighting: first of all it's against the rules, second it won't work w/ the way I set up my pins. Always the measure of a persons ethics is what they do when no one can watch them.


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## 2413gary (Apr 10, 2008)

I shoot nonsight Bowhunter and recurve trad with a 40 yd point on when I shoot at 60yds my arrowrest covers up the target should I just close my eyes so I don't see the rest. NFAA rules for BH and Recurve say you can't use anything including your arrow rest to aim with. I am thinking if your level is on the target you can't help but see it.


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## mag41vance (Mar 13, 2008)

I suppose there are ways to bracket shots with the target markings and also seeing where the pins frame at varying distances, which are all legal if you use the pins to frame or bracket. When I first heard about using the bubble was at a shoot in 2008. I was curious so when I got back to my range, I took notice as to where the level was on the target when I spot and lifted my 80 & 70 yarder. I was using a Copper John Dead Nuts at that time and I remembered that when I found my spot for the 80 yarder, my level was basically on the bottom black ring of the 60cm target. Even though I didn't use that hold for the shot, it was a way to verify I was in the zone. It is difficult if you're the observant type not to notice points of verification on some shots. I think intent is the ? . If your sights are set up by setting the level for your non pin shots then setting all the pins accordingly, then the intent is to use the bubble as an extra sight, which would be ok if you have 4 pins then use the bubble as the 5th sighting reference point. I am not intending this to be a Witch hunt to uncover people not shooting to the letter of the law as much as I would like the NFAA to clarify or perhaps give some leeway to a class of shooters that want good aiming points but don't want to shoot FS in order to attain it.
When you think about it, it isn't realistic to ask rules to be changed for a total of 4 shots in 112. I like the challenge in finding a place to put my 60 y pin in order to score a possible 5. I would hate to think you could lose a tournament because of 4 arrows, but I know I've won some because of fewer than 4 arrows


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## bowhunter_va_28 (Apr 28, 2003)

If you're good enough to hit 5's on everything else, I seriously doubt you would have much trouble stacking pins to get the last 4 points. If you're not hitting everything else then why not work on those to pick up a few additional points? I would guess the top shooters don't need the extra point of reference to win. Because of that, I don't see a real advantage to using the bubble or pin guard.

"You", above, is a general term and not a reference to anyone specific.


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## mag41vance (Mar 13, 2008)

bowhunter_va_28 said:


> If you're good enough to hit 5's on everything else, I seriously doubt you would have much trouble stacking pins to get the last 4 points. If you're not hitting everything else then why not work on those to pick up a few additional points? I would guess the top shooters don't need the extra point of reference to win. Because of that, I don't see a real advantage to using the bubble or pin guard.
> 
> "You", above, is a general term and not a reference to anyone specific.


I do concur. The Top shooters in BHFS will be "Top Shooters" with or without a rule change. I guess the question is, does it give an advantage to those that have figured out how to use it to sight with? This thread is more about a level playing field. If _everyone_ is doing something that's outside the rules then it is fair. If some refuse to to it because they figure it's breaking rules, then the scale is out of balance. 
I think it's disappointing that too many archers think that 80-70 are that important, but 80-70 have become that because some have perfected the use of sighting with something in addition to their peep, and 5 fixed pins.
I guess the litmus test of "is this right" would be, if you're willing to tell the truth to a rules official if you're asked how you sight the 70-80.
The other option is to shoot FS where every shot looks the same through your sight system. 
The reason this was brought up, is because of the conversation that I heard over a 2 day tournament among the BHFS ranks. Before this tournament, this subject was treated almost like Gay's in the military, "don't ask don't tell" 

I do think it's one of those areas you can't really police. Because of that, a rules change would put more BHFS shooters on the same page. Fairness in competition is the criteria, legal use of the equipment is how to attain fairness. 
Everyone doing the same / "right thing" is the goal. Like you stated Dean, The Top shooters in BHFS will still be "Top Shooters"


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## red1691 (Jun 8, 2007)

I have tryed to use my level before but it had to be so high covering the spot up to the 3 ring, no right or left referance! At least with the sight and lift, the pin is easier to aim at a smaller spot!


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## pantherman (Jan 19, 2012)

If I go and practice the 80yds I get an inner 4, if I don't practice I get an inner or outer 4......
So I practice something I can improve on, and no I don't use the level to aim although I know some do.
Is the level covered in the USA? We cover it for competitions


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## New River (Oct 29, 2007)

I guess I am the person you are referring to about the level issue at Sherwood although I didn't shoot with you on Sunday In no way was I accusing anyone of cheating. Not even close. We were just trying to figure out what the rule book said. Actually I have been trying to use the level at longer yardages but have not refined it at this time. No one would ever be able to tell what you are looking at while aiming. Anyway its each to his own when it comes to issues like this. I know a lot of guys do it and i have no problem with them using the level. Most of them would beat me if they were blindfolded. Guess I opened a can of worms. Hope I didn't hurt anyones feelings.


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## mag41vance (Mar 13, 2008)

New River said:


> I guess I am the person you are referring to about the level issue at Sherwood although I didn't shoot with you on Sunday In no way was I accusing anyone of cheating. Not even close. We were just trying to figure out what the rule book said. Actually I have been trying to use the level at longer yardages but have not refined it at this time. No one would ever be able to tell what you are looking at while aiming. Anyway its each to his own when it comes to issues like this. I know a lot of guys do it and i have no problem with them using the level. Most of them would beat me if they were blindfolded. Guess I opened a can of worms. Hope I didn't hurt anyones feelings.


 Hey Loyd,
No feelings were hurt that's for sure. (BTW I enjoyed shooting with you Saturday) 
It is a probing question in our division, and the only thing that needs to be addressed is if it creates an unfair or uneven playing field for those that abide, and those that don't. One thing for sure, if we had 2 extra pins, there would still be only a few archers that would hit the dot on a regular basis. :icon_1_lol:


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## ScorpioVI (Apr 18, 2012)

Sorry, newbie here, I've been shooting BHFS for 3D only but I'm contemplating shooting field once the 3D league wraps up the end of this month.

What exactly do you mean by using the level as a sight? You run out of pins at 80 and use the level to sight with?


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## mag41vance (Mar 13, 2008)

ScorpioVI said:


> Sorry, newbie here, I've been shooting BHFS for 3D only but I'm contemplating shooting field once the 3D league wraps up the end of this month.
> 
> What exactly do you mean by using the level as a sight? You run out of pins at 80 and use the level to sight with?


Actually, if you set your 5 pins like most do you set the max distance at 60, and then spot and lift for the 70 & 80, but yes, some do use their bubble or bottom of the ring as a sighting point.


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## Rattleman (Jul 6, 2004)

I shoot FS but everyone that shoot I know who shoot BHFS uses the bubble for aiming. Most set the bubble then move the pins around to get the rest of the marks. This is unless they have a verticle line then they just use the line. It was soo much easier when no level, verticle line or pin guard was allowed.


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## deer_slayer1982 (Sep 8, 2008)

Why not use it it's there, I'm shooting it. Its only good for 10 points 80 yrds twice. Bhfs is half as fun and twice hard as fs.


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## AKDoug (Aug 27, 2003)

Hell yes I use it. I set the top of my bubble at 80 yards and sight the rest of the pins in from there. In fact, you are allowed to mount a level "anywhere" according to the rules.


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## brtesite (May 24, 2002)

every one will use what ever is in the sight window. old recurve days we used a knuckle or any thing else that we could to shoot the long ones. I know what the rules say, but some rules can not be enforced. It is not cheating . It is a method
Back in the day , there were those who said sliding the string was cheating.


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## mag41vance (Mar 13, 2008)

AKDoug said:


> Hell yes I use it. I set the top of my bubble at 80 yards and sight the rest of the pins in from there. In fact, you are allowed to mount a level "anywhere" according to the rules.


 So then, how do you interpret rule 3 under the BHFS section?

_3.) A pinguard mounted on the sight, and a level mounted anywhere will be legal in this style of shooting, provided that there are no additional marks or blemishes on either of these items that could be used for sighting._


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## Kade (Jan 11, 2011)

mag41vance said:


> So then, how do you interpret rule 3 under the BHFS section?
> 
> _3.) A pinguard mounted on the sight, and a level mounted anywhere will be legal in this style of shooting, provided that there are no additional marks or blemishes on either of these items that could be used for sighting._


I interpret that to read as long as you don't have any marks on the bubble your fine. 

When I shot BHFS years ago I didn't use my bubble. Didn't really find that I needed it. I imagine if I started shooting BHFS again I would use it. But since I hate shooting pins I dont have to worry about it lol


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Kstigall (Feb 24, 2004)

mag41vance said:


> So then, how do you interpret rule 3 under the BHFS section?
> 
> _3.) A pinguard mounted on the sight, and a level mounted anywhere will be legal in this style of shooting, provided that there are no additional marks or blemishes on either of these items that could be used for sighting._



I think we all know the "intent" of this rule. But it does not say the archer shall not use anything other than the end of the pins for aiming purposes. What about the edges of each sight pin? I use each pin as having 3 different aiming points. The 3 being the top, bottom and the center of the pin. If I use the top of a 35 yard pin to shoot a 33 yard target is that cheating? I sure hope not. Is it illegal for the archer to use the left or right side of the pin for windage adjustment?

If the equipment meets the class rules then all is well. What a person sees through his sight can't be regulated.

I expect and might even know that some use Spot Hogg Hogg-It pin housings because they have a vertical wire inside the pin guard. The intersection of the wire and bubble make a nice aiming point for managing left-right alignment.


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## New River (Oct 29, 2007)

The rule book says "5 fixed points of reference" can be used.


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## mag41vance (Mar 13, 2008)

Kstigall said:


> I think we all know the "intent" of this rule. But it does not say the archer shall not use anything other than the end of the pins for aiming purposes. What about the edges of each sight pin? I use each pin as having 3 different aiming points. The 3 being the top, bottom and the center of the pin. If I use the top of a 35 yard pin to shoot a 33 yard target is that cheating? I sure hope not. Is it illegal for the archer to use the left or right side of the pin for windage adjustment?
> 
> If the equipment meets the class rules then all is well. What a person sees through his sight can't be regulated.
> 
> I expect and might even know that some use Spot Hogg Hogg-It pin housings because they have a vertical wire inside the pin guard. The intersection of the wire and bubble make a nice aiming point for managing left-right alignment.


 I would like to know what the NFAA's ruling would be if someone protested the use of the level as the 80y aiming point, and the person being protested against admitted to using it as a sight point. 
I am not trying to get anyone in trouble, I'm trying to get some resolution on this subject so we can all either do it legally(define please), or not. Confusion is no fun and ignorance on this subject could be eliminated by having an NFAA official interpret so it isn't subjective. Please


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## SCarson (Apr 13, 2008)

Since I shoot FS, I have no dog in this "fight," so the only thing I have been getting from this thread is a good chuckle. Before anybody blasts me for saying that, I mean no offense to anyone. However, it does not matter whether you get a resolution, NFAA RIC ruling, federal law, Presidential Executive Order, or a US Supreme Court ruling, you still come up with the same result.....No way subjectively or objectively to prove and enforce it! Some other poster already said it, you can not see what the shooter's eye is using or not using. The ONLY way to resolve the issue is to remove the level from the sight in ANY BH class....period. And I do not think that dog will hunt.


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## TNMAN (Oct 6, 2009)

SCarson said:


> ---The ONLY way to resolve the issue is to remove the level from the sight in ANY BH class....period. And I do not think that dog will hunt.


The other way is to change the rule to say that the bubble may be used for a 6th point of reference. Someone will then make a BHFS Model site with adjustable level (elevation) and vertical wire. And everyone would be on a level playing field.

Apologies--No dog of mine running either.


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## frank_jones (Mar 2, 2006)

oh no! not the bhfs vs the freestyle pins argument again! LOL i have always been in favor of getting rid of the bubble. yes it is true that i scored higher useing the bubble as a site. however, the archery manufacturer with site designs may influence the rules. good luck to all.


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## Rattleman (Jul 6, 2004)

Since the mid 90's the BHFS division has constantly gotten closer to FS. It is only a matter of time before the rules of the game eventually put you in the FS division. It once was 5 fixed reference pins and they were to be of the same material. No pin guards or levels. Only a peep or kisser but not both. Since then pin guards were allowed. Then came the fiber pins and levels with either /or for the peep and kisser. Next was the vertical line. Finally the speed was increased. With all these refinements the average BHFS never really has to come out of the dot when aiming. Isn't this what the FSers already do? Instead of all the advancements I feel that you should be arguing to go back to a time when you really had a division seperation. Sooner or later the NFAA will lump you all together to save money and force you to move up to the FS division. This is already happening at the BB and BH styles. It won't be long until you have the FS, FSL and BB divisions only. More people shooting in a style and less money to be laid out for awards. Just my observations in the past 25 years.


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## frank_jones (Mar 2, 2006)

exactly rattleman. to quote an old friend that some of you may know as the legendary BR. HOR. shoot what you brung!


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## rogersaddler (Feb 4, 2009)

Rattleman I remember them days also you had to have screw in points 4-5 inch vanes or feathers sight no more than 5 inches from front of riser. I have tried it didn't care for it I felt like I was cheating and didn't care for that feeling. I set my pins 25-65 and i use a vertical wire on my sight I aim off of that by guessing what the gap should be for another 15 yards I love the challenge of shooting pins and aiming off. when Hunting there are plenty of tomes you have to aim off the animal doesnt always stop where you want it to


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## brtesite (May 24, 2002)

mag41vance said:


> I would like to know what the NFAA's ruling would be if someone protested the use of the level as the 80y aiming point, and the person being protested against admitted to using it as a sight point.
> I am not trying to get anyone in trouble, I'm trying to get some resolution on this subject so we can all either do it legally(define please), or not. Confusion is no fun and ignorance on this subject could be eliminated by having an NFAA official interpret so it isn't subjective. Please


Vance. that is one question that no one can give a meaningful answer. unless they allow it , the enforcement would only come from the accused answer to the question.


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## lew ford (Sep 11, 2009)

If want to look at a rule in BHFS look at #7. One STRAIGHT stabilizer, not to exceed 12" long. Look up STRAIGHT IN THE DICTIONARY. Does your stabilizer meet compliance?


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## rogersaddler (Feb 4, 2009)

Lew ford I think that is a old rule. you now can have back weights side bars just as long as they don't exceed 12 inches also your sight can be out to 12 inches but not exceed 12 inches


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## brtesite (May 24, 2002)

the stabilizer is still straight. It doesn't say what shape. It can't angle from the bow.
side & back weights can be as long as you wish.


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## loragon (Aug 1, 2011)

That's the entire reason I bought my bone collector sight. It has an ajustable level you can use as an extra pin. It's on my hunting bow so I've never thought abouut it being legal in spots...Great question tho.


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## slowbowin12 (Apr 14, 2008)

I have tried shooting with the bubble but found my accuracy was not as good compared to spot and lift. I personally dont care if someone uses their bubble for a reference cuz if they can nail the 80 twice in a tournament in bhfs they probally shot well the entire shoot.


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