# Is "Hold" more equipment or more human?



## cbrunson (Oct 25, 2010)

A little bit of both. I can get my hunting bow to hold really well sometimes. I can get my target bow to hold really well most of the time.


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## dmacey (Mar 27, 2015)

For what it may be worth, I just put down my Supra Max for exactly this reason. I don't know exactly why, but it just doesn't hold well for me - if I'm utterly utterly perfect I can make it sit still for a very brief time, but otherwise it just feels like a tiger by the tail, especially as I start my "press" into the wall in the "execute" phase. My Hoyt, on the other hand, sits like a rock, and all the way through the shot (long as I execute during the 'window' that is). Same alignment and same form, but it doesn't move as long as I'm applying the pressure correctly and I'm not starting to tire. And the arrows go in the gold at a far higher rate with it than with my PSE. 

So for me, I think the equipment can play a role in the hold. I used to think it was all "the Indian" completely, until I picked up my Hoyt and started shooting that instead. That was a few weeks ago and I've been shooting it ever since then, making sure it wasn't just a fluke and I'm just having a string of 'good days' with a still-poor form or shot. But I'm shooting better scores now with it, even with much poorer-suited arrows for indoor (ACEs) than before with my PSE (GT Ultralights). 

I also shoot with a completely relaxed bow arm and a very "inside" type of alignment. Don't know if there's a correspondence there or not? Have you tried a different bow by any chance to see if there's any difference for you?

DM


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## Sasquech (Dec 15, 2014)

I went quite extreem on weight not quite reo mind you but definitely heavier than I have ever shot and bow is much more stable holds like a rock now I need to shorten the shot window slightly. But weight in the right place and right ratio is key


Staff shooter Dream Shot Archery makers of Twisted Minds bowstrings. 
Hoyt Pro Comp Elite XL 51#
AXcel Acheive sight. Hamskea rest


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## WhitBri (Jan 30, 2007)

Equipment is critical especially equipment fit to you. I would assume this would only get you to your best hold which I'm assuming everyone has their own best possible. But I've never seen how others hold. I also believe most don't play with different dl or setups to ever find their best hold. Most get to ok and don't want to change anything for fear of losing ok


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## grantmac (May 31, 2007)

I think holding weight, type of stop (limb or string) and stabilization all play a role. 

I have two bows with similar specs but otherwise very different characteristics:
A VE with Spirals and a Shadowcat with binary cams. One has high holding weight and string stops, the other lower (but adjustable) holding weight and a limb stop. Both have fairly hard walls although the Shadowcat might be a tiny bit harder.

The Spiral cam forces you to be aggressive in that it will take-off if you try and shoot anywhere but right into the wall. Generally it holds nicely with a bit of load into the wall but doesn't float well if you try to pull the limbs off. It likes a fairly forward biased stabilization set-up. It's also a very tough bow to shoot well on steep angled shots but has been by far the best bow I've ever shot indoor with the weight backed off a little.

The binary (Hybrix I think) cam will happily sit in the valley all day at the 80% let-off setting but the float is large and lazy. Loading heavily into the wall really makes it float tighter but gets very busy with the stab set-ups I've used (fairly neutral to rear bias). I have a feeling that if I set-up the stabilization when I'm very fresh and pulling hard into the wall it'll start dropping out if I'm fatigued but I haven't really spent the time to get it totally dialed in since I have so far shot the VE better. The Shadowcat also has a wider grip with flat edges that seems to be harder to find a perfectly consistent hand position on which may also be related.

So does the equipment matter? Yes I'd say it does. But mainly in that different equipment effects how you as a shooter can run the shot. The VE is easier to be consistent with and rewards with a really solid float so long as you are making the exact same shot all day. The Shadowcat doesn't hold quite as tight at the best of times but it is easier to adapt to different shots with at least in my experience.

-Grant


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## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

I think most of it is human and by finding a good setup of equipment you can improve it but in the end it always comes back to you. That is what really sets the pro shooters above us, they can shoot high weather they are alone or on the national or world stage. Spending money on equipment can not and will not give you that.


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## EPLC (May 21, 2002)

What I'm discovering is that my "physical" has been messing with any possible equipment change I could make. No matter what equipment change I have made the resulting hold has been about the same. I'm playing with a 34-35# max Vantage Elite with Spirals that I put together. I've also found that my aiming needs a revamp as well. Perhaps my thinking has been messed up in just about every aspect of this process.


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

More human than equipment, but equipment set for the human. And holding weight is different animal between cable stops and hard stops. Pulling so with cable stops and there is X amount of give. Pull so with hard stops and there is no give. Me, dual hard stops, I've had to learn to just pull to the wall. And after my shoulder overhaul everything seems different, drawing, holding, sighting, and I'm learning all over again, but I'm getting there.


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## montigre (Oct 13, 2008)

I also feel it is more human than equipment. If you expect your arrow to go into the middle, you have to do your part to ensure the reticule floats around the desired point of impact with consistency, without interrupting the flow, and have the mental training and fortitude to allow this to happen with every shot made. 

Obviously, it is much easier to accomplish this if the equipment is well fitted to your physique, is well suited for your shooting style, and takes into consideration any physical weaknesses or limitations you may be working with. 

Over the past several years, I have sold a few bows that were very good in many respects and seemed perfectlly fine to an outside observer, except they each worked against my limitations and caused me to be tense and sometimes shoot with discomfort. Thankfully, I feel I have finally found the bows that will allow me to rebuild my shot and follow the points stated above.


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## EPLC (May 21, 2002)

Today I decided to start from scratch with the 35# Vantage Elite so I removed everything, stabilizers, sight... everything. I shot a few arrows at about 5 yards but really couldn't tell much so I moved to 20. With a lot of concentration on relaxing the bow side I made some shots just looking through the peep. I went on to repeat this for 5 or 6 ends of 4 or 5 arrows. Early into this process I could feel the bow was set too short and the hold wasn't very good, choppy I think would best describe it and truly relaxing wasn't possible. I decided to lengthen the DL by backing off the limbs one turn at a time until it felt right. After 1 turn the bow felt smoother on the hold so I went another turn after a couple ends. At 2 turns out the bow felt much steadier and my 20 yard groups just looking through the peep had shrunk to 5 or 6 inches from at least double that. 

I felt it was time to put the sight on and see what would happen. The sight messed up the balance but I was able to keep most arrows within the 5 ring of a NFAA blue & white. Next step was to attach the stabilizers, a 30" front bar and an 18" back bar with a 4" extension and no weights. This tightened up things more but I felt a little front heavy. I ended up adding 5.25 oz. in 1.75 oz. increments to the back bar until the bow felt really solid. 

With the bow feeling pretty good I started to really work on relaxing both the bow and release sides of the shot. I'm far from being able to relax on every shot but now understand how important this is. I don't think I have ever really shot this way as I've always had a lot of muscle involvement in my shot. With the bum shoulder I now have no choice... Btw, the shoulder held up fairly well today after this 3 hours process that even included having to pull 3-4 arrows from the wood. All in all very pleased with today's progress.


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## RCR_III (Mar 19, 2011)

Now's a good time to learn how to set up the bow and loop lengths to allow you to relax the upper shoulder and lower neck muscles to utilize the back and core muscles. It'll help steady your shot and be easier on your shoulder. 

Sounds like you're on that path now.


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## EPLC (May 21, 2002)

RCR_III said:


> Now's a good time to learn how to set up the bow and loop lengths to allow you to relax the upper shoulder and lower neck muscles to utilize the back and core muscles. It'll help steady your shot and be easier on your shoulder.
> 
> Sounds like you're on that path now.


I've also been thinking about loop height with relation to the grip. I know the common wisdom sets up to the burger hole but sometimes I think I would like to increase this a little higher to see the effect on hold. Has anyone played around with this?


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## RCR_III (Mar 19, 2011)

The higher the loop goes up the more you'll pull from the top of the bow. It brings the grip pressures back into the webbing of the hand. This also brings the front end up during a shot and makes the front feel lighter, causing more weight to be up front to balance a bow out because you're pulling more from the top. 

With your shoulder, you should use this to your advantage. Maybe keeping the rear bar's weight less and overall weight less because you can control the pivot point with your pulling point.


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## Shogun1 (Jan 31, 2015)

The stem of the question acknowledges that both equipment and human elements play a part in holding steady.

The key in the equipment side is having the bow fit -- both in DL and in DW. Of those two, I believe the archer is more tolerant to minor variances in DW more so than variances in DL.

So what constitutes a "fit" in DL. The bow and the d-loop constitute half the problem. The archer's anatomy, form, and way he chooses to grip the release constitute the other half of the problem.

The bow/D-loop half of the problem can be adjusted by several approaches. Change the cams/mods to change the bow's actual DL. Twist the strings and cables to change the DL at the possibility of affecting other specs. Adding or shortening the D-loop won't affect the bow's actual DL but will affect the total system. The last way to adjust DL (on a parallel limbed bow) is to adjust the DW. Increasing the DW decreases the DL. Decreasing the DW increases the DL.

The other half of the system also has multiple means of adjustment. No, the archer can't magically grow arm length. But, going from a high wrist to a low wrist grip on the bow shortens the DL required. Making this change also tends to result in a more stable hold for most archers.

Changing the release and/or the grip on the release can also change the DL required. Compare a Carter Like Mike to a Carter Sensation held in deep in the hand. Using the same anchor references, the Like Mike requires a shorter DL from the bow's half of the system, while the Sensation could add a half inch or more to the bow's half of the system.

But by far the part of the archer's half of the system that affects holding steady the most is adopting a relaxed form primarily supported by the skeletal system with minimal muscular involvement. (Which is difficult to do if the bow doesn't fit the archer.). At anchor, the bow would be suspended from the release elbow by the archer's forearm, wrist, relaxed hand, and release. The bowside arm just keeps the bow from being pulled into the archer's torso.

Beyond fitting the bow to allow the archer to adopt that relaxed form there are additional equipment issues that can contribute to holding steady or conversely not being able to settle at all. The purpose of a "stabilizer" is to reduce movement. But without enough weight on the stabs, the whole system remains too easy to move around. On the other hand, too much weight also causes instability. Stabilizers also affect the balance of the bow. Again, getting the stabs out of balance can make it difficult for the archer to hold the bow steady.

There used to be an argument that the amount of reflex affected the stability. The argument was based on where the grip pivot point was located in relationship to where the limb tips were at brace. Given that logic a deflexed bow (like a classic longbow) would be more stable than a reflexed bow (like a lot of modern compounds). The Mathew Z7XT made me rethink the way I thought about this argument. With parallel limbs that draw past parallel, drawing the bow forces it to pull into line reducing the tendency to let the bow float.

But equipment and form issues set aside -- the archer's mental approach has a huge impact on his ability to hold steady. Anxiety, adrenaline, pressure, and doubt about his ability to make the shot will all erode how stable his sight picture is. 

So -- both affect stability. Which has a larger impact -- most likely the human aspects because there are not only form issues but also mind games involved. Even if you sort out the form and the equipment issues -- the mind games can still affect your shot.


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## EPLC (May 21, 2002)

RCR_III said:


> The higher the loop goes up the more you'll pull from the top of the bow. It brings the grip pressures back into the webbing of the hand. This also brings the front end up during a shot and makes the front feel lighter, causing more weight to be up front to balance a bow out because you're pulling more from the top.
> 
> With your shoulder, you should use this to your advantage. Maybe keeping the rear bar's weight less and overall weight less because you can control the pivot point with your pulling point.


Exactly what I've been thinking. Add to this the fact that I've always liked bows that place the grip point more centered to the bow with the arrow riding above center. The Apex comes to mind as well as the Vantage Elite.


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

Sort of wide range to play with, the d-loop. I never cared for center of the arrow shaft below the bottom of the berger hole, but some like it. My present bow I have the center of the arrow at the top of the berger hole. Can't say it's any different than center/center.


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## WhitBri (Jan 30, 2007)

This thread and my bow change this year have made me question a lot in regards to steady hold. I made a switch from an apex 8 to victory this year. I just wanted a change and thought they would be equal in the end as both good bows. Well I was wrong and for me the victory holds steadier and longer for me. And for my sanity I would love to know why. But the bows are so different I may never know as can't select the variable individually. Victory has limb stops, more low wrist grip, below center grip, slightly less ata, cam system so how do you figure. Heck my dl is now 5/8" shorter measured with the victory, guessing that has to do with low grip and lower wrist grip. 
Now target bow wise I have only shot a C4, apex and victory, so could a change to hoyt of pse done the same thing? maybe. But its made me a believer that equipment matters too.


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## cbrunson (Oct 25, 2010)

WhitBri said:


> This thread and my bow change this year have made me question a lot in regards to steady hold. I made a switch from an apex 8 to victory this year. I just wanted a change and thought they would be equal in the end as both good bows. Well I was wrong and for me the victory holds steadier and longer for me. And for my sanity I would love to know why. But the bows are so different I may never know as can't select the variable individually. Victory has limb stops, more low wrist grip, below center grip, slightly less ata, cam system so how do you figure. Heck my dl is now 5/8" shorter measured with the victory, guessing that has to do with low grip and lower wrist grip.
> Now target bow wise I have only shot a C4, apex and victory, so could a change to hoyt of pse done the same thing? maybe. But its made me a believer that equipment matters too.


On the other side of the coin, I had both a Podium and a Victory up until a few days ago when I sold the Victory. I could shoot the victory very well. Perhaps if I gave it more time and testing I'd still have it, but I didn't care for the grip. I know a lot of people really like it but I felt like I had to hunt for a good feel and then palm it pretty heavy to stay consistent with right and left. Knowing that I "could" get it made me a believer that it is an adaptation thing. I chose the more familiar of the two, going forward.


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## jim p (Oct 29, 2003)

If you are suffering from loss of strength, try getting your bow as light as possible. Use the longest stabilizers that you can find and use very light weight or even no extra weight on the end of the stabilizers.

Back in May I got so weak that there was no way that I could hold on target. If I was shooting 8's and above I had to be happy. The 6's and 0's were upsetting.

Let us know how the changes work for you.


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## EPLC (May 21, 2002)

After experimenting with different configurations since I started to shoot again I'm again coming to understand how important equipment setup is to "me". The day before yesterday I played with minor DL adjustments and found a nice little sweet spot. Of course that wasn't good enough so I messed with my loop height yesterday, raising it 1/4". Shooting my league last evening was like shooting a shotgun based on the groups I was getting. The bow just wasn't holding well and my 422 reflected it. Not one 30 in the entire game. This morning I started out with about the same range of motion as last evening shooting a single spot blue & white. Then again I decided to mess with the DL as for some reason it seemed long, both last evening and this morning. I went in one turn with the limb bolt and the bow smoothed out some. I went one more turn and then backed off 1/2 turn. That's when I started shooting X's... lot's of X's. I was only shooting one and two arrow ends but for the last half hour I shot most were X's... inside out X's. Needless to say I'm pleased with this little science project... Now I sit typing this with a icepack on my shoulder (which is getting better)...


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## EPLC (May 21, 2002)

I'm also shooting the HBX again, or should I say "learning" the HBX. My relearning process has also uncovered the best method for me to execute this fine release. With the light poundage I'm better able to get a good understanding/feel as to what is actually going on. With the HBX I have to apply even pressure on the index, middle and ring fingers and really relax while either pulling straight back or applying a little BT (OMG did I say that). Tense up and I'll have difficulties, relax and the release is flawless. I'm so glad I stuck with it.


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## jim p (Oct 29, 2003)

you shot a lot of arrows. No wonder your shoulder is sore. Slow down and enjoy getting back to your great shooting.


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## duc (Jul 18, 2009)

I think it more the human and their ability to LEARN instead of fiddle. This constant change of bow, stabs, weigh and distribution, release aid, d loop and every other dam thing looking for the perfect bow/form/draw length/setup does nothing for consistency. It tells me that you are looking for something that's not there. Constantly. Some times we just have to understand we suck and accept it. I used to score EVERY arrow I shoot in training and when I change things I look for score consistently over time. Not seeing this is only a gussing game. And how easily we delude ourselves. Subjective analysts (changing things and FEELING better) is lying to yourself.


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## duc (Jul 18, 2009)

I'll also add that this fear that we are missing some important thing with our shooting and hence the constant change clouds judgement to the point that we really are missing something. And that's the fine art of training your brain to do what it needs to do. To me this is learning to not over control the bow AND have have the CLEANEST release. Don't let the fluff get in front of your eyes and obscure the most important things.


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## Sasquech (Dec 15, 2014)

I think this is a strange question. Bad bow shot perfectly will hit the middle all day however it is never about that. Repeatable form is key. 

Now badly set up or less than optimal tuned equipment is not forgiving. Proper tuning allows for human variation to still go in the middle. 35 pounds my concern would be sufficient holding weight I find difficulty with low holding weight. Significant bat weight I have 10 oz on 33 inch front and 22oz + at 15" on the back. Amazing how much better the hold is same bow same tune. I would have never thought that much weight would work for me but did the experiment and love the result. 

Everyone is different but if you don't experiment you will never know how good it can feel


Staff shooter Dream Shot Archery makers of Twisted Minds bowstrings. 
Hoyt Pro Comp Elite XL 51#
AXcel Acheive sight. Hamskea rest


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## grantmac (May 31, 2007)

Put a bow in a shooting machine and it'll shoot a perfect round without stabs or much tuning at all. There is no float, the DL doesn't matter, etc..

Give it to a human and that all changes. For me I know I can't shoot inside my float reliably, but if I get my setup right I have a pretty decent float for a non-pro (inside 10). If something is off and that float opens my shot isn't going to run smoothly. I know some people just keep executing through a bad float but I'm not one of them. This is also probably why I run a fairly low magnification and moderate extension, I use just enough to see that I'm inside that 10 and nothing more.

For me:
Good equipment setup=good float=relaxed mind=strong shot.

Which is probably why I don't shoot as well outdoors. The changing environment leads to a larger float and things don't run as smoothly.

Grant


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## duc (Jul 18, 2009)

And some more. It's easier for me to TRY and be a shooting machine then look endlessly for this golden panacea in equipment. I can analyse what's going on and change what I do and how I do it in an instant. Quicker and easier then buying releases and fiddling with bows. My shooting got better over time by training and thinking, not endless tinkering. So in conclusion I think it's all in the head and not in the setup. Flame away.


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## EPLC (May 21, 2002)

jim p said:


> you shot a lot of arrows. No wonder your shoulder is sore. Slow down and enjoy getting back to your great shooting.


Yes, I do shoot a lot of arrows but I'm beginning to think this was not a shooting issue with my shoulder. Rest did not help but it seems the more I shoot the more I recover. 



duc said:


> I think it more the human and their ability to LEARN instead of fiddle. This constant change of bow, stabs, weigh and distribution, release aid, d loop and every other dam thing looking for the perfect bow/form/draw length/setup does nothing for consistency. It tells me that you are looking for something that's not there. Constantly. Some times we just have to understand we suck and accept it. I used to score EVERY arrow I shoot in training and when I change things I look for score consistently over time. Not seeing this is only a gussing game. And how easily we delude ourselves. Subjective analysts (changing things and FEELING better) is lying to yourself.


While I do agree in principle that there is no magic pill, I find some setups are definitely more forgiving than others. A little tweak here or there can make a difference, sometimes a big difference. I've also gone through a lot of bows in my shooting career and I can tell you some shot better for me than others, much better. I had a Hoyt Pro Elite with C2 cams that I couldn't hit anything with and a Money Maker single cam that was even worst. I got the Money Maker +$ in a trade for a Vantage Elite that I had just shot my best scores all summer with. Just like that I went from shooting the best scores of my life to not being able to hit anything. Strange the guy that got my Vantage hated it...


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## duc (Jul 18, 2009)

I would suggest you get you get your vantage elite back or buy another one. Start from the place you were most comfortable with. Also accept the reality of age and physical condition. You just may torment yourself a little less.


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## Chris1ny (Oct 23, 2006)

Ideally the hold is more equipment than human. 

The problem when the hold is more human than equipment, that is when the wear and tears happens to the body. Sooner or later the wear and tear will catch up to you. 

Sorry to hear about your shoulder. Give Acupuncture a try for a speedy recovery.


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## EPLC (May 21, 2002)

duc said:


> I would suggest you get you get your vantage elite back or buy another one. Start from the place you were most comfortable with. Also accept the reality of age and physical condition. You just may torment yourself a little less.


Actually did just that: 2010 Vantage Elite 35# Max purchased about a month ago and reconfigured. Fully loaded (as pictured) the bow is just 6.5#. As far as age and physical condition I'm only 70 and in excellent physical condition. The shoulder has shown some improvement since I started shooting again.


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## duc (Jul 18, 2009)

Is there a possibility of you trying GTX cams. I think you would like the bow more.


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## Sasquech (Dec 15, 2014)

Warning no wall on GTX at 35 lbs will be spongy


Staff shooter Dream Shot Archery makers of Twisted Minds bowstrings. 
Hoyt Pro Comp Elite XL 51#
AXcel Acheive sight. Hamskea rest


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## duc (Jul 18, 2009)

Anything short of limb stops will be spongy at 35 pounds for us. We have the strength to pull hard, Eric doesn't so it should all be relative.


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## EPLC (May 21, 2002)

Sasquech said:


> Warning no wall on GTX at 35 lbs will be spongy
> 
> 
> Staff shooter Dream Shot Archery makers of Twisted Minds bowstrings.
> ...


I can not speak to the GTX at 35# but do have some experience with Spirals at low poundage (see below)



duc said:


> Anything short of limb stops will be spongy at 35 pounds for us. We have the strength to pull hard, Eric doesn't so it should all be relative.


Not so... I'm shooting the Vantage at 31# with 2.5 Spiral X cams set in the #3 let-off hole/peg. There is absolutely nothing wrong with the wall on this bow with a holding weight of 12#. Even with the low poundage, when I make the shot I'm center X. This was my target from last night's local shoot. It took a few ends for my mind and body to find the X but then I went on a good run... until the shoulder kicked in and then I started spraying things around. I'm also learning my HBX release which has more promise than any other I've shot. The difficulty is I'm relaxing my index subconsciously which causes hang-ups. After shooting hinges forever it's a hard habit to break. I should be doing some blank baling with it but the shoulder isn't up to it yet. Currently about 50% of my executions are center X which is what I'm trying to focus on. The other 50% are the hang-ups which I'm working on...


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## dmacey (Mar 27, 2015)

Agree. I shoot two different bow types with holding weights in the 10# range and I have no trouble with the walls on either. I had someone try to tell me in another thread recently that spongy walls can't be shot consistently - nonsense, at least judging by my targets. So even if our back walls are a little springy at low poundages, we can still shoot them fine. 

My PSE, long as I have the control cable the right length (long story  ), has a nice medium-hard back wall even at 10lbs holding weight or thereabouts....

DM


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## EPLC (May 21, 2002)

dmacey said:


> Agree. I shoot two different bow types with holding weights in the 10# range and I have no trouble with the walls on either. I had someone try to tell me in another thread recently that spongy walls can't be shot consistently - nonsense, at least judging by my targets. So even if our back walls are a little springy at low poundages, we can still shoot them fine.
> 
> My PSE, long as I have the control cable the right length (long story  ), has a nice medium-hard back wall even at 10lbs holding weight or thereabouts....
> 
> DM


And the back wall is even better with the Spirals when compared to the PSE's which brings up a concern. I just purchased a used Podium X 40 that will need a cam and limb swap. I have some 56 deflection XT2000's which should bring it to 30-40 with a Spiral X 2.5 and 40-50 or thereabouts with the GTX. I may try the GTX and use the Spirals as a backup plan.


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## grantmac (May 31, 2007)

Regardless of holding weight there is an order of magnitude difference between a Spiral and wheels. A Spiral is pretty darn close to a single limb stop in terms of wall.

Just as there is an order of magnitude between the feel for equipment inconsistency of an archer who is shooting 290-295 while recovering from injury and one who is a consistent 280-285 shooter due to basic technique and equipment set-up issues.

-Grant


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

grantmac said:


> Regardless of holding weight there is an order of magnitude difference between a Spiral and wheels. A Spiral is pretty darn close to a single limb stop in terms of wall.
> -Grant


Always seems said that one needed the top cam (oval wheel) advanced on a Hoyt. I feel that advancing the top cam was the lack of understanding the cable wasn't all the way down in the groove for it. Done correctly there will be of deflection of the both cables at the same time, giving a nice wall, one that held, but would give a tad for those using (Okay, I'll say it) true back tension. For those who "muscled" a hinge I'd hear from time to time the wall was too soft. Friend of mine was that way, muscled his hinge, and trying to explain that to him was like talking to brick wall. I shot his Hoyt and it was so sweet...and he sold it because of him thinking it had too soft a wall. Only after he sold that wonderful bow did he finally understand.

Okay, cables deflecting at the same time. I shot Martins. Binary cams, both cables lay in the grooves for them. If timed correctly both cables deflected at the same time. Pearson's Legend, LS3 and LMS cams are no different other than the module tangs are right out in the open to see them touch the cables. You can time a Pearson with a feeler gage....


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## EPLC (May 21, 2002)

EPLC said:


> Interesting, since my shoulder injury I've had to really relax my bow arm. During this process I've discovered that my bow doesn't like this and tends to wander all over the place. This has got me thinking that it is possible, due to the tendency of using too much muscle in my shot, that no matter what I did to the bow it would never stay still. So... I believe I need to probably unlearn just about everything I've done to this point and start from scratch. Hey, with my shoulder in the shape it's in I have no choice. I'm going to work towards letting the bow do most of the work and see what happens...


My conclusion is this: While there is no magic pill there certainly is a connection to equipment and performance. At some point the proper equipment can help bring you to the next level but repeating the same mistakes over and over will produce the same results regardless of the equipment used. There is a distinct difference between the two. 

I'm actually liking my low poundage, low mass weight as it is allowing me to get a better feel for my shot. I've been able to pick up on little subtleties in my shot that were not noticed before. About 50% of my executions are very good to excellent right now and the other 50% are crap due to a combination of my physical issue and some things that are engrained in my shot that I need to address. As mentioned I need to spend some time on the bale but my shoulder isn't wanting to go there yet.


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## Shogun1 (Jan 31, 2015)

Good luck with the recovery process. Don't overdo it and set yourself back again. 

Apologogies for my prior response -- I clearly failed to understand what you were really driving at and responded to the debate --human factors or equipment factors. 

If you're interested in a way forward to address one of the problems you identify, take a look at your PM inbox.

Cheers


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## aread (Dec 25, 2009)

Shogun1 said:


> Good luck with the recovery process. Don't overdo it and set yourself back again.
> 
> Apologogies for my prior response -- I clearly failed to understand what you were really driving at and responded to the debate --human factors or equipment factors.
> 
> ...


Maybe you did misunderstand, but you put a lot of great information in that post. :thumbs_up
Thank you!


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## dmacey (Mar 27, 2015)

EPLC said:


> My conclusion is this: While there is no magic pill there certainly is a connection to equipment and performance. At some point the proper equipment can help bring you to the next level but repeating the same mistakes over and over will produce the same results regardless of the equipment used. There is a distinct difference between the two.
> 
> I'm actually liking my low poundage, low mass weight as it is allowing me to get a better feel for my shot. I've been able to pick up on little subtleties in my shot that were not noticed before. About 50% of my executions are very good to excellent right now and the other 50% are crap due to a combination of my physical issue and some things that are engrained in my shot that I need to address. As mentioned I need to spend some time on the bale but my shoulder isn't wanting to go there yet.


Totally agree. For me, while I think it's true that higher poundages can be more forgiving in certain ways, I haven't yet found a reason to shoot the typical 50+ lbs draw weights. I couldn't pull those bows back if I wanted to anymore anyway, but for target archery the technology available today kind of obviates those poundages. JMO, that is. 

Even at the elite level - I believe Paige Pierce shoots 35lbs or thereabouts outdoors or she was for a while. 

My Hoyt wheel bow would be another story because it's so slow to begin with, otherwise I'm with Uncle Ted Nugent when it comes to draw weight .

DM


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## Reverend (Nov 2, 2004)

tagged for steadier hold...


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## rohpenguins (Dec 2, 2012)

For what it's worth. I have had 2 surgeries on my left shoulder (im left handed) I noticed the same tendencies after the 2nd. Its been 4 yrs and I'm still relearning how to shoot. I defiantly tend to muscle the shot more than I used to. I always had that issue but now that I shoot lower poundage and holding weight its hard for me not to revert back to what I used to do. I think you are on the right track and faster than I was in figuring it out.


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## Sasquech (Dec 15, 2014)

50 50 weight stab weight holding weight and form 


Staff shooter Dream Shot Archery makers of Twisted Minds bowstrings. 
Hoyt Pro Comp Elite XL 51#
AXcel Acheive sight. Hamskea rest


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## V3505 (Jan 31, 2013)

RCR_III said:


> The higher the loop goes up the more you'll pull from the top of the bow. It brings the grip pressures back into the webbing of the hand. This also brings the front end up during a shot and makes the front feel lighter, causing more weight to be up front to balance a bow out because you're pulling more from the top.
> 
> With your shoulder, you should use this to your advantage. Maybe keeping the rear bar's weight less and overall weight less because you can control the pivot point with your pulling point.


This is something I recently read about and found interesting. Use tiller tune in quarter turn increments... to find what holds the best and shoots the best grouping of arrows. Seems it would accomplish the same thing. You would still have to bare shaft tune to account for split limb/nock travel. I agree it depends of how the bow is set up, so human = equipment for a steady hold.


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## EPLC (May 21, 2002)

So... I got myself a TRG7 and found this bow really does hold better for me than the other bows in my stable. Now, before everyone gets all excited, I didn't purchase the TRG7 for any other reason than I got a good deal and have been interested in this bow since its introduction. My only concern was the physical weight of 5 1/4 pounds which I have found to be of no concern as it requires less added weight than my others bows, resulting in a lighter total mass weight overall. So while holding is certainly a result of the entire system, equipment plays a big part in the development of that system. There's nothing I don't like about this bow. I'm surprised they haven't caught on more than they have.


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