# How to compete against cheating



## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

First, be sure of the rules of the club. Then go to a higher up Officer of the club and report the incident. If you get results, fine. If not.....

Not shooting for anything I wouldn't worry. I shoot at a few clubs and everyone of them has something different. One club just lists shooters in no order and gives score for each. Another club has a Range Finder class where anyone can shoot, but no awards given. I just throw my score card in the back of the car or trash......


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## Scottspot50 (Nov 21, 2017)

Some clubs are following a trend to allow range finders. This will probably continue into the future as most archery hunters regularly use range finders. Additionally, target Archers are reluctant to lose $40 arrows while toting a range finder that they would use if hunting. I would say that your problem lies with the local club. The club needs to step up and separate classes for with or without rangefinders. Realize that judging distances is a skill completely different from accurately shooting a bow. Target Archers adjust their sights to a yard of less while bow hunters usually estimate a distance of around. 10 yards or so. The attitude of the rangefinder shooters MAY be because they are also shooting ASA or IBO where results=money. My advice to you would be:1 Talk to your club to split classes. 2: get a range finder and use it a lot in practice. If you shoot really well, you will out shoot the “cheaters” I did.


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## huteson2us2 (Jun 22, 2005)

I am on the verge of shooting 3D again, but will only shoot in the known distance class in tournaments that follow the same rules as a field shoot. The main reason I stayed away from 3D tournaments was because of the cheating that I had seen in the past in my old state and I thought this article was going to address that problem. The rule in the past was that if you could shoot a decent score, you shot spots. If you could pencil a good score, you shot 3D.

One score card kept and filled out by archer. Shooting with friends and relatives with no stranger to keep one honest. Checking scores before going out and coming back with a couple of points lead. I was the tournament vice president at my old club a few years ago and went out after dark during our state IBO championship to make sure no one was stealing our 3D animals. What I found was a half dozen archers pacing off the distances for the following day. How about skipping targets because of long back up at the target and giving yourselves 12s. Compared to what I have seen, using a range finder during a no count local shoot is nothing.

But things might be getting better. The first year after I came to Arizona, I shot the first round of their IBO triple crown. I was pleasantly surprised that I was place in a group and was not allowed to pick my own and we were given two score cards. Of course it was decided that only one guy would keep score on all of us as having two score keepers was stupid. After we finished the round, the scores were copied to the second score card. That was about 6 years ago. So I am thinking of trying a 3D again as 3Ds are about the only game in town anymore. So I will be another cheater and shoot in the known class and just not turn in my score card.


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## nestly (Apr 19, 2015)

huteson2us2 said:


> .... I was place in a group and was not allowed to pick my own and we were given two score cards. Of course it was decided that only one guy would keep score on all of us as having two score keepers was stupid.


Assigned groups of peers where everyone in the group is competing against each other is the only effective control against cheating regardless of what type of archery competition it is... also double scorekeeping. If you go to a shoot that doesn't enforce those minimum competitive controls, you should just regard it as practice because the legitimacy of the results will always be in question. Most clubs seem to be more interested in "numbers" than serious competition, so they don't enforce rules to discourage cheating.


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## huteson2us2 (Jun 22, 2005)

Once a year, we have a state field championship. It is the only field shoot during the year. Each year, I end up with a group of 3D shooters who has never shot a dot tournament in their life. The reason I end up in such a group is because an experienced shooter is always assigned to a group of new field shooter to explain the rules.

The first complain is always "why do we have to have two score keepers?". But it is the amount of rules that keeps them away from any spot shoots in the future. 3D is very simple. One shot per target and the group rotates every target. Touch the stake and shoot the arrow. Simple and fun only 20 shoots per round instead of 116 in field with 28 targets plus a practice target. I could really enjoy 3D if I could use a range finder and shoot with a minimum of rules to keep everyone honest. I hunt with a range finder and would rather work on hitting a spot instead of spending my practice time learning to judge distance. It would also be nice if they could put the 12 ring near the heart instead of the liver or shoulder bone. My idea as a spot shooter is that the archer that can judge distance and knows where the 12 ring is will win. If he is willing to pencil whip the score card, he will win over other pencil whippers.


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## ahunter55 (Aug 17, 2009)

huteson-My favorite round is the Field. Like you, to do great in 3-D you must "know" where that 12 ring is & it definitely makes a difference. I go to 3-Ds as a fun outing with my Son & G-kids. We seldom worry about the score but say, would your shot be a kill? Lots of 5s would be dead meat in real life & some of those 12s would be a lost animal. Like 2, 12 rings with one in the ars..


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## huteson2us2 (Jun 22, 2005)

I have always wondered how many animals are lost each year because young archers are taught to shoot at the wrong spot due to 3D. I would love to see the 12 ring placed over the heart with the 10 ring also placed over the heart but not including the shoulder bone and the 8 ring covering the lungs. Then a minus 5 for the rest of the animal. When 3D was first coming out in the early 70s, I did see targets like this as the targets where I lived at that time were made by a famous taxidermist in our area and not by a company dedicated to making 3D targets. My thoughts were always that if the maker of 3D targets have no idea of the anatomy of an animal, maybe they should make the 12 ring a contrasting color so everyone would know where it is placed.

In the mean time, since I just got new eyes thanks to cataract surgery, I will shoot in the known class and use binoculars that now allow me to see where the manufacture decided to put a 12 ring. 

Back to the last time I shot a 3D in Arizona during a triple crown, I shot an animal right where I thought the 12 ring was and walked up to the animal and could not see any 12 ring. The other more experienced archers in my group informed me that even though the 12 ring was no longer there, it was not where my arrow was. It was on the left edge of the ten ring lying over the shoulder bone. I kind of lost interest right then when a good shot that lands where you aim it does not count because the 12 ring was shot out and could no longer be seen and was originally placed in a spot a good hunter would never aim for.

3D is very simple game with simple rules that make it popular but allows cheating in many forms due to it's lack of enforcing the rules that they do have. If they also placed the scoring rings where they should be and not give advantage to shooters that know where the 10 and the 12 ring are placed it might even be more popular. It is like playing 21 in Vegas. A very simple popular game that has very strict rules because cheating can be very easy to do and there are always some that will do it like the Reverend I caught pacing off the target in the middle of the night at a 3D I was running years ago.


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## nestly (Apr 19, 2015)

huteson2us2 said:


> I have always wondered how many animals are lost each year because young archers are taught to shoot at the wrong spot due to 3D.


I don't know why people have this perception. Just about any arrow in the "10-ring" on a foam deer is going to be a filled tag on a live deer. "Hearts" are a pretty small target... the "center" of the "10-ring" is not a bad place to hit a broadside deer.


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## johnetzel (Apr 23, 2009)

> I don't know why people have this perception. Just about any arrow in the "10-ring" on a foam deer is going to be a filled tag on a live deer. "Hearts" are a pretty small target... the "center" of the "10-ring" is not a bad place to hit a broadside deer.


That is ONLY if the animal doesn't react to the shot. If it does you might get lucky and hit the top of the lung(s), or mayby the spine. You will probably just miss over the back if the animal drops enough which is very possible later in the season after they have been pressured.


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## nestly (Apr 19, 2015)

johnetzel said:


> That is ONLY if the animal doesn't react to the shot. If it does you might get lucky and hit the top of the lung(s), or mayby the spine. You will probably just miss over the back if the animal drops enough which is very possible later in the season after they have been pressured.


If you cut the legs off of a 3D target so its lower to the ground, the vitals are still in the same relationship to the body. If you expect the deer to drop/duck, then aim lower, but you still want the arrow to strike the deer in the "10-ring"

Sent from my LGLS755 using Tapatalk


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## johnetzel (Apr 23, 2009)

You know what, I'm done wasting my time trying to tell you why your response was a little off. You are not understanding that shooting or aiming at the MIDDLE of a LIVE animal is not the best practice to always get a ethical outcome. But you are right about hitting it in the 10 ring. Done wasting my time.


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## nestly (Apr 19, 2015)

IMO, the real waste of time was complaining about the location of the scoring rings on a 3D target. 3D is not hunting, anyone that thinks it is has bigger problems than where the rings are located. There's no place you can put a scoring ring on a foam animal that's going to be appropriate for all situations... you don't aim for the same spot on quartering deer as a broadside one, and neither do you aim for the same spot when shooting from the ground as when in a tree stand. If you want to go to a 3D and shoot all the targets where you would if they were live deer, that's great... knock yourself out, but don't complain because there's scoring rings in the most logical location for those who choose to shoot for score.


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

johnetzel said:


> You know what, I'm done wasting my time trying to tell you why your response was a little off. You are not understanding that shooting or aiming at the MIDDLE of a LIVE animal is not the best practice to always get a ethical outcome. But you are right about hitting it in the 10 ring. Done wasting my time.


I'm with nestly. Me, anything relating of hunting should be removed from this thread. This is a target forum. All deer don't drop at the shot so I'm not practicing shooting to where the kill isn't.


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## johnetzel (Apr 23, 2009)

You are right. This is a TARGET thread and we got WAY off topic. I apologize to the OP for getting into a argument not related to this thread.


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## Bobmuley (Jan 14, 2004)

I’ve been on both sides of this. First as one who thought someone was cheating and later as one who a couple guys thought was cheating (actually my old archery traveling buddy and I both were accused via heresay). 

In both cases a couple logistical plays to tourney coordinators or planned timing to make sure I shot with them. 

In the first case the guy I made sure to shoot with seemed to have a bad day full of all the archery excuses. He kinda went away a couple tournaments after that. 

In the second case we drove 300 miles to a grand total of $75 between us. We were close in first and second and third place was about 80 points behind us on a 40 target course. 

So, I would encourage you to figure out a way to shoot with anyone you think is cheating. Pretty much everyone double scores...volunteer to keep a set. If they single score...keep a set anyway and let everyone know you’re keeping scores on your phone “for your benefit and records”.

Talk to organizers, wait in line at registration, or just straight up ask to shoot with them. You don’t have to be a dick about it...after all you’re there to shoot your bow. Show ‘em it’s possible to have fun: win, lose, or draw. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Shacker (May 21, 2018)

Thanks for the advice from everyone on this matter. I went with the heck with it method after today. I went to a club shoot,,, almost everyone there was carrying a range finder. I mentioned that there was no known yardage classes. One guy said; oh, I shoot ASA rules. So I guess I'll go to one of the ASA rules shoots with my bow shooting 315, and if im asked, I'll just inform them it's ok,, I shoot IBO rules. Lol


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

We all know cheating is more at the club level and it's tough to bust sometimes. At the state level double score cards and more honesty prevails, not that it hasn't happened.

As Secretary for 9 years I've heard and seen a bit more than most. One shot with his buddies and close enough was close enough. Reported we put another with his group and it didn't take long to have him mad and quit shooting right after. Another added up his score card wrong on purpose. If he got away with it fine for him. I added all score cards back to up to ten places for each class. That I corrected his score card two months in a row he sort of blew up; "What do you, check all scores?!" I said, Yes, and he disappeared. I spread the word to other clubs and he got caught again. He no longer shoots that I know of. Another cheat was by a club member. She received the actual winner's score card and threw it away so her friend took 1st. She was booted from the club. 

One "cheat" reported wasn't really cheating, but he was caught ranging a target, but after he shot it. That it was a higher level event he was disqualified.
Another shot a class he was moved out of (ASA thing). Caught, he was disqualified, but I wasn't told fast enough. The club did finally get back part of the prize money (less $5) for 1st place. 

At the national level things seems pretty tight. I can't remember but one, that of someone having range finder binoculars. He was made to repay X number of dollars and hasn't been seen since.


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## nestly (Apr 19, 2015)

Shacker said:


> My wife and I have recently gotten in to 3D shooting local shoots. All of these are unknown yardage shoots. I have seen and talked to people shooting the same classes we are using range finders. *I have been told that it doesn't matter because we aren't shooting for anything*. If that is the case, why are these people turning in score cards?





Shacker said:


> Thanks for the advice from everyone on this matter. I went with the heck with it method after today. I went to a club shoot,,, almost everyone there was carrying a range finder. I mentioned that there was no known yardage classes. One guy said; oh, I shoot ASA rules. So I guess I'll go to one of the ASA rules shoots with my bow shooting 315, and if im asked, I'll just inform them it's ok,, I shoot IBO rules. Lol


Was this also a shoot with no prizes/awards? If so, I agree that it doesn't matter.


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## Shacker (May 21, 2018)

No, it's not really for anything. And I could care less if I even place or not. I am getting older, I'm just wondering when I missed it becoming ok for everyone to do what ever they want and it be justified for any reason, for anything or not. That's the point I'm getting. When I played sports in school it wasn't for anything either, but people still played by the rules. I stole a piece of gun when I was a kid, cost a penny, when I was taken back to the store to return it and apologise to the owner, he said it wasn't nothing. My hind end told a different story when I got home.


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## wv hoyt man (Feb 17, 2012)

If you think cheating is really at the club level. You have a lot to learn and shoot at bigger shoots.
You will figure out where the cheating is happing and people just get tired of it.
Look at some of the big 3D events where the numbers are dropping then look at other events where they are growing.


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

wv hoyt man said:


> If you think cheating is really at the club level. You have a lot to learn and shoot at bigger shoots.
> You will figure out where the cheating is happing and people just get tired of it.
> Look at some of the big 3D events where the numbers are dropping then look at other events where they are growing.


Where are the numbers dropping? Seems attendant records are being set more and more.


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## nestly (Apr 19, 2015)

SonnyThomas said:


> Where are the numbers dropping? Seems attendant records are being set more and more.


IBO sanctioned events and local shoots in general are way down. Big ASA events are doing well because ASA puts the shooters first and actually uses a format where rules can be enforced.


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

SonnyThomas said:


> Where are the numbers dropping? Seems attendant records are being set more and more.





nestly said:


> IBO sanctioned events and local shoots in general are way down. Big ASA events are doing well because ASA puts the shooters first and actually uses a format where rules can be enforced.


Seems the IBO has been slowly going down hill for a long time, but cheating isn't the cause as wv hoyt man gave. Local 3Ds are iffy and I don't see cheating as a cause. One club I'm a member of was averaging 140 per shoot and now down to about 100. Another club I'm a member of seems gaining a few shooters, up from 45 to about 75. Now these two clubs differ as the first as trophies and other awards and the 2nd doesn't have any awards and just lists shooters and their scores (no classes given). And another club closed it's doors, but due to not getting help. All this does is have nearby clubs gain some shooters.


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## wv hoyt man (Feb 17, 2012)

SonnyThomas said:


> Seems the IBO has been slowly going down hill for a long time, but cheating isn't the cause as wv hoyt man gave. Local 3Ds are iffy and I don't see cheating as a cause. One club I'm a member of was averaging 140 per shoot and now down to about 100. Another club I'm a member of seems gaining a few shooters, up from 45 to about 75. Now these two clubs differ as the first as trophies and other awards and the 2nd doesn't have any awards and just lists shooters and their scores (no classes given). And another club closed it's doors, but due to not getting help. All this does is have nearby clubs gain some shooters.


I never implied or said anything about the IBO events. So you should keep your comments to yourself or back them up. If you want to live in a bubble in a fairy tale world that is up to you also. Just don't include me in it with you. Have a great day.


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## brsnyder1 (Jul 4, 2017)

I think IBO events are decreasing because they don't offer alot of the things ASA does. They are strictly unknown and i feel alot of people are starting to realize that, yes, judging distance is a skill in and of itself, however you still have to make the shot. Alot of people are leaning towards ASA because they can shoot known distance classes. As stated before, I think alot of clubs are starting to realize this and my club in particular has voted on it to start making known classes. It gives the people the option to shoot known or unknown and ulitmately, we feel, will bring more people because THEY HAVE OPTIONS. The real quesiton is....WHAT DOES IT HURT? if you have people cheating and using range finders....why not make a known class? People start losing interest because they don't have the option to shoot the same class they might be in at an ASA level. This has drove alot of people away from local shoots. I also agree with the above comment of alot of local shoots don't offer anything but your name on a list....it's not all about trophies or medals etc, but what are people paying to do? repair your targets each year? if clubs want to see an increase in shooters, start offering people something back for their money. Your always going to have "those guys" that try to get away with things and cheat. Double score card, random groups, shotgun starts, etc help combat these things. Just my .02


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## 1/2 Bubble Off (Dec 29, 2016)

I shoot in a 3D league where cheating may get you into the shootdown but it won't get you a prize. In this league, the top 10 shooters from each class shoot a 30 target course with random groups and an official score keeper. 

So what YOU can do to reduce the impact of cheaters is try to talk the hosts into having a "shoot off" to declare a winner.


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## Shacker (May 21, 2018)

Thanks, halonshooter, that makes sense. If folks are scoring 8 or 10 up on final score they shouldn't mind showing everyone the skills they possess.


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## nestly (Apr 19, 2015)

wv hoyt man said:


> Look at some of the big 3D events where the numbers are dropping then look at other events where they are growing.





wv hoyt man said:


> I never implied or said anything about the IBO events. .


I'd certainly be interested in knowing what "big 3D events" you were alluding to, if not IBO and ASA, because I currently have no idea what other "big 3D events" have a cheating problem affecting attendance.


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

wv hoyt man said:


> If you think cheating is really at the club level. You have a lot to learn and shoot at bigger shoots.
> You will figure out where the cheating is happing and people just get tired of it.
> Look at some of the big 3D events where the numbers are dropping then look at other events where they are growing.





SonnyThomas said:


> Where are the numbers dropping? Seems attendant records are being set more and more.





SonnyThomas said:


> Seems the IBO has been slowly going down hill for a long time, but cheating isn't the cause as wv hoyt man gave. Local 3Ds are iffy and I don't see cheating as a cause. One club I'm a member of was averaging 140 per shoot and now down to about 100. Another club I'm a member of seems gaining a few shooters, up from 45 to about 75. Now these two clubs differ as the first as trophies and other awards and the 2nd doesn't have any awards and just lists shooters and their scores (no classes given). And another club closed it's doors, but due to not getting help. All this does is have nearby clubs gain some shooters.





wv hoyt man said:


> I never implied or said anything about the IBO events. So you should keep your comments to yourself or back them up. If you want to live in a bubble in a fairy tale world that is up to you also. Just don't include me in it with you. Have a great day.


You implied something and I gave of the only organization seemingly dropping in numbers for attendance. 

Again, where are the numbers dropping? Put up or shut up. Just about as politely as you put forth............


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## Shacker (May 21, 2018)

I am truly sorry that I posted this. It has a couple of fellers fighting, and that was not my intention. It has however made me certain that I wish to compete at a higher level. If someone could tell me how to get my IBO pro card that would be awsome. Judging yardage is my favorite part to the sport. Right, wrong, or indifferent, it's what makes it fun to me.


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

Contact the ASA or IBO. Question; Have you competed in 3D more than what it seems? Going Pro usually is one that places well or wins the vast majority of times at the club and/or state level....

I am unaware of the IBO having the number of state events that the ASA does. In ASA our state has several Qualifiers and a State Championship. IBO is all but extinct in my State. I can't remember any IBO event in the past several years. Surely Illinois has a one usually a Qualifier leading to a National Championship event.


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## nestly (Apr 19, 2015)

Shacker said:


> I am truly sorry that I posted this. It has a couple of fellers fighting, and that was not my intention. It has however made me certain that I wish to compete at a higher level. If someone could tell me how to get my IBO pro card that would be awsome. Judging yardage is my favorite part to the sport. Right, wrong, or indifferent, it's what makes it fun to me.


That's not fighting, that's just different people with different perspectives and opinions that are formed because of different experiences and circumstances.

As for shooting pro, I strongly suggest you participate in a few national events in the more advanced amateur classes (or at least semi-pro) before jumping straight into pro, as you're likely to have a very eye-opening experience and potentially jeopardize your amateur status should you realize you bit off a bit more than you expected.


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

Different can of worms....Brought to my attention....Has anyone heard of someone "messing" with some one's bow? I have.


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## Bobmuley (Jan 14, 2004)

SonnyThomas said:


> Different can of worms....Brought to my attention....Has anyone heard of someone "messing" with some one's bow? I have.


I've heard several times at indoor shoots over the years that "someone moved my peep" or "someone moved my sight". No one was ever caught or even directly accused that I'm aware of. I suspect that a bad shot or two makes one accuse everyone else for their failings...


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## lees (Feb 10, 2017)

Bobmuley said:


> I've heard several times at indoor shoots over the years that "someone moved my peep" or "someone moved my sight". No one was ever caught or even directly accused that I'm aware of. I suspect that a bad shot or two makes one accuse everyone else for their failings...


That's usually the case in the rare instances I've heard of that. The shooter is generally firing DubbleYewTeeEff arrows to begin with so some problem with the bow is usually suspected. They're the guy always scowling at his stab and sight, constantly checking the tightness of em after a DubbleYewTeeEff shot. Then they start micro-checking the peep and rest in between shots, etc. 

Don't ask me why I know so much about DubbleYewTeeEff shooting in such intimate detail.

Meanwhile, Ive only heard the "hmm, my bow must have been messed with" only one or two times, but I wouldn't be surprised if those cases were all a DubbleYewTeeEff guy just finally going off the deep end in frustration on a really bad day....

lee.


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

One real recent case that came up was one of the better shooters. Whoever screwed his arrow rest after the event he won.


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## NoviceAddicted (Dec 25, 2015)

Shacker said:


> My wife and I have recently gotten in to 3D shooting local shoots. All of these are unknown yardage shoots. I have seen and talked to people shooting the same classes we are using range finders. I have been told that it doesn't matter because we aren't shooting for anything. If that is the case, why are these people turning in score cards?


I have gone to 2 club shoots, non IBO where we used range finder. Since rarely shooting 3D instead of field and farthest stakes, just for fun, not wanting to lose any arrows, and just told the club when paying and getting score cards, just disqualify us and we didn't turn in score cards. Waterboy is not a cheater. lol


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## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

What I have found is that you just need to get the guys who complain into your group expecially if you are the really good shooter putting up crazy good scores, when I finally started winning and putting up good scores I was instantly put in the possible cheater category and it bothered me but I got lucky and they sought me out at the next few tournaments and I shot my normal winning scores and within weeks it spread around that I was actually shooting the good scores. 

Now, I have became a semi pro 3d guy and my buddy jason just won rookie of the year in asa unknown so we shoot really good scores on a regular basis especially jason locally. He shoots some scores that unless you were in my group watching it happen you wouldn't believe it possible. This is why even though we have some regular guys shooting with us we also love new people to shoot with us from time to time because when jason shoots 17 out of 30 12's on a course and shoots 30 up it spreads like wildfire that we were tough on him calling his line calls and that he could have had another 4 or so 12's and shot 36 up. 

We find that once people see that it is for real then they stop complaining and start embracing those good scores.


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## Bobmuley (Jan 14, 2004)

In light of recent events one of the answers has to be....drug testing. 

At least in a select few tournaments you know you're going against someone's natural ability to shoot through nerves.


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