# Leaving IBO



## RIDGE_RUNNER91 (Feb 21, 2005)

I agree that kids should be supported as much as possible because they are the future, but................ Winning an award for showing up seems silly. This is kinda like not keeping score at little league games. Everyone has to be a winner so nobodys feelings get hurt. We are becoming a nation of wimps.......... if a kid loses he needs to practice more and do the best he can the next time. Competition is about winning a losing............ everyone can't go home with a trophy.


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## Elf Friend (Mar 1, 2003)

I see good points in both your posts. Maybe if the IBO shoots had a specified score to beat then the kids get a throphy regardless. I also think it is a good thing to give participation awards to the very small shooters say 4-6 years old. Bottom line is it has to be up to the hosting club wheather or not to give awards be it 3-6-9 basics or 4-8-12. There are clubs around here that will give awards in each class even if there is only one shooter in that division and we also have those club that will give awards 1st place for four shooters, second place for eight shooters and third place for 12 shooters.


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## igradner (Mar 28, 2008)

both good points of view!


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## Bearbow (Jan 14, 2006)

*Sorry for confusion*

Let me clarify my statement. No, not everyone will win a trophy; However if there is one kid or 100 kids in a class, they should award at least 1st, 2nd and third. Granted I can do math, if there is only one kid then they get 1st, but if there are 2, 3, 4 ---kids, then give the 2nd and third places out also.


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## V.A.S.A (Mar 31, 2009)

*I think most would tend to agree..*

with the amount of money that the IBO takes in for its shoots...I should hope that the least they could do is have some trophies...If my son made the trip all the way to Ohio lets say... and he ended up being the only shooter in his class.....then regardless of how he shoots... he wins first place. I think with the thousand or more dollars we spend per month to make it to the shoots and participate then that is the least they can do for the youngsters. I could care less about a trophy for myself....but at least for the kids.

They are the future. NO matter how good any one person may be...the kids are needed to keep it going.


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## meatman76 (Sep 17, 2007)

I feel that the most important thing is getting the kids out shooting and teaching them the correct ways to shoot........the desire to win and to improve will come naturally.


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## alfabuck (Dec 12, 2008)

V.A.S.A said:


> with the amount of money that the IBO takes in for its shoots...I should hope that the least they could do is have some trophies...If my son made the trip all the way to Ohio lets say... and he ended up being the only shooter in his class.....then regardless of how he shoots... he wins first place. I think with the thousand or more dollars we spend per month to make it to the shoots and participate then that is the least they can do for the youngsters. I could care less about a trophy for myself....but at least for the kids.
> 
> They are the future. NO matter how good any one person may be...the kids are needed to keep it going.


I agree totally.I know kids in little league all get trophy's per given year for participating and even their own baseball cards in other leagues.It show the youngsters that win or lose they are all winners and should be rewarded for their efforts.


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## meatman76 (Sep 17, 2007)

RIDGE_RUNNER91 said:


> I agree that kids should be supported as much as possible because they are the future, but................ Winning an award for showing up seems silly. This is kinda like not keeping score at little league games. Everyone has to be a winner so nobodys feelings get hurt. We are becoming a nation of wimps.......... if a kid loses he needs to practice more and do the best he can the next time. Competition is about winning a losing............ everyone can't go home with a trophy.


The dissapointment only grows stronger the older they get, if a kid goes through little league thinking they are doing good and they have to tryout for the team in highschool and dont make..........then what!!!!wheres the reward then?


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## flintcreek6412 (Jun 27, 2006)

IMO this is the time to teach kids that life is not fair and let them learn about disappointment and adversity now at a young age under your tender care and guidance. We have an entire generation of kids that have not been taught this valuable lesson and now when they are cast out into this harsh world they crumble under the pressure of relationship, job and other rejections. 

Yes, they are the future of the sport, but what's going to happen when they enter into the truly competitive classes? How will they handle that adversity of not finishing well or getting a trophy if they have no experience in such matters. If they enjoy archery, they will enjoy it no matter what the reward is because the inner satisfaction will be enough. If they need an award to have fun, then you are just delaying the inevitable leaving of the sport.


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## Bearbow (Jan 14, 2006)

*Baseball vs Archery?*

I have no idea how a team sport like baseball can relate to an individual sport like archery. From what you are saying I gather it is best to tell the youngsters who have put forth the effort to participate because they do not collectively make a group big enough to warrant a trophy they should go away and not bother us. Perhaps when they are old enough to join a big enough group to matter then maybe they can win an award on skill. How profound and courage’s. I do not know about the rest of you archers but I do know my biggest competitor is myself. This is an individual sport in which I choose to compete with others in my class in order to compare my skills with their talent. Is it the kids fault only 1 or 2 have decided to participate at an event and not stay home playing on the boob tube? Do we tell participates their class is irrelevant and they need to change there style or grow older in order to matter to the masses? I am not advocating every child, except for those in the Future Bowhunter Class, receive an award. The trophies, 1st, 2nd or 3rd place must be earned, BUT if there are only 1 or 2 or 3 shooting, give them out as they have been earned.


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## alfabuck (Dec 12, 2008)

flintcreek6412 said:


> IMO this is the time to teach kids that life is not fair and let them learn about disappointment and adversity now at a young age under your tender care and guidance. We have an entire generation of kids that have not been taught this valuable lesson and now when they are cast out into this harsh world they crumble under the pressure of relationship, job and other rejections.
> 
> Yes, they are the future of the sport, but what's going to happen when they enter into the truly competitive classes? How will they handle that adversity of not finishing well or getting a trophy if they have no experience in such matters. If they enjoy archery, they will enjoy it no matter what the reward is because the inner satisfaction will be enough. If they need an award to have fun, then you are just delaying the inevitable leaving of the sport.


Your right ,allowing little kid to recieve a trophy for shooting archery is crazy.Lets teach um a lesson and not show them any appreciation for their efforts because of this crime filled tough world we live in.We show them something positive now and their likely to have failed relationships,lead a life a crime and be jobless some day....ukey:.............:tongue:.Hey to each his own, i just think that it would be good for the kids.But thats just my opinion.


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## RIDGE_RUNNER91 (Feb 21, 2005)

Like I said I agree that kids need support. I'm just not sure that GIVING them a trophy for showing up is the kind of support that they need. I may be wrong (Lord knows I have been before), but that is my $.02. 

I hardly think that this is a reason for never going to an IBO shoot again. Since you feel so strongly about the issue make a motion for a rule change to the IBO. Sitting here and typing online isn't going to solve anything. Talk to a rep and see what you need to do to get the rule changed or at least let your opinion be heard by the people that matter. 

They do listen (sometimes :zip: ) ............. just look at the vane change in hunter class this year for example. 

For the record the only reason that I mentioned baseball was the fact that in little league they don't keep score anymore. They make everyone a winner so nobodys feelings get hurt ukey:. I was simply comparing giving everyone a trophy in a youth class to not keeping score in little league.


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## V.A.S.A (Mar 31, 2009)

*No wonder the world is all messed up.*

quote....For the record the only reason that I mentioned baseball was the fact that in little league they don't keep score anymore. They make everyone a winner so nobodys feelings get hurt . I was simply comparing giving everyone a trophy in a youth class to not keeping score in little league. 



As I stated earlier...I think there should be trophies or medals available to the kids...sure if they do not place in the top 3 or 4 or 5 then maybe nothing for them.....Wait.....NO !!! If a cub...8 and under makes it to a 3D shoot..and walks the whole 30 target course..and shoots it....he or she should at least get a medallion for the effort...My 6 year old was so proud of the medallions he got that he began to focus more...and now he is winning trophies...not because he is the only one in the cubs either...BUT because he wants to shoot better and win...I have taught him from an early age...that in Archery you will LOSE alot more than you will ever WIN.....however...it is the love of the sport that keeps us plugging away. I am running/hosting two summer archery camps....20 kids each camp session......All of my students will not only recieve a new PSE Discovery bow and King quiver with desperado arrows...but they will each recieve some sort of medallions or trophies depending on their level of effort each day. At the end of the week for those who attend...they will leave my camp sessions striving to shoot more and have a sense of self worth and achievement for every effort put forward.

I do not understand why anyone would want a child to have to suffer any of the adult BS that we deal with as adults...they are children....let them be children.....If your Mommy and Daddy didnt give you enough attention or your little league team got pounded every week...well dont come here and propose to take that out on the future archers of the next generation....children need guidance...and respect....and to learn from the peers in their environments....Good Lessons...if I had a bad childhood...and I knew the causes and effects...then belive I would do my best to make sure that NO child I knew would suffer any of the shortcomings I endured.


Take a kid to a shoot !! All kids get medals here in VT !!!! All of the sister clubs in Mass also give the kids Medals....Heck Mario from Lemme's in NY put on 1 heck of a shoot and gave a ton of gorgeous medals out for the KIDS.
MY KID GOT ONE>>>>HE WAS HOME SICK AND IT WAS RAINING>>>HE got a medal for wanting to go even though he was sick.


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## V.A.S.A (Mar 31, 2009)

*Baseball is NOT Archery !!!!*



meatman76 said:


> The dissapointment only grows stronger the older they get, if a kid goes through little league thinking they are doing good and they have to tryout for the team in highschool and dont make..........then what!!!!wheres the reward then?





I played Baseball too....I am still shooting Archery...havent seen a glove or ball in 20 years !!! And Im glad !! 

My point is....You cant enter a Baseball tournament by paying ten dollars...but you can enter a 3D shoot for ten dollars. Baseball and Archery are not the same game...not even comparable. And from the initial post by the posting thread starter....He was pointing out that the WINNERS were not even getting any trophies. Ridiculous....and I must point out that 90 % of the arguments I see here in Archery talk are due to people not reading and comprehending the original posts !!!! All the guy was saying is that thye should recognize the winners !!! You know....in history...the NFAA used to pull that crap too...not paying first place if only one or two people were in the class.....no recognition no trophies etc.....well....then people stopped coming....guess what....now ..even if you are the only one in your class..... YOU WIN>>>if you shoot,..and you have the highest score...YOU WIN

In a sport where you lose WAY more than you can EVER WIN....it pays to be the only one in a class sometimes....LOL. But seriously....All the young cubs and PEE WEEs should get something for the efforts. 

I am not archery....YOU are not archery......THe children ARE Archery and the future of it as well.!!!!


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## V.A.S.A (Mar 31, 2009)

*Good luck with talking to a rep !!!*



RIDGE_RUNNER91 said:


> Like I said I agree that kids need support. I'm just not sure that GIVING them a trophy for showing up is the kind of support that they need. I may be wrong (Lord knows I have been before), but that is my $.02.
> 
> I hardly think that this is a reason for never going to an IBO shoot again. Since you feel so strongly about the issue make a motion for a rule change to the IBO. Sitting here and typing online isn't going to solve anything. Talk to a rep and see what you need to do to get the rule changed or at least let your opinion be heard by the people that matter.
> 
> ...




First of all....it almost took an act of congress to get the IBO to change the regulation.....The IBO is a very confusing and sometimes trifling organization at best....But to not even get a trophy for a first place showing is a slap in the face.....MOST shooters I know...skip alot of area shoots that DO NOT DO TRophies.....or payouts less than 20% in a money shoot. If they make the trip...and lets face it... the IBO shoots big league shoots are no short change travel trip for most of us !!! They could at least hook up the future bowhunters with some medals....or a trophy for 1st 2nd and 3rd.....I mean come on.....its the kids we are talking about...sometimes we need to just leave our bows on the rack a little while....and take our kids out and give them our undivided attention so they can shoot more 11'S etc.:zip:


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## V.A.S.A (Mar 31, 2009)

*Right !!!!*



alfabuck said:


> Your right ,allowing little kid to recieve a trophy for shooting archery is crazy.Lets teach um a lesson and not show them any appreciation for their efforts because of this crime filled tough world we live in.We show them something positive now and their likely to have failed relationships,lead a life a crime and be jobless some day....ukey:.............:tongue:.Hey to each his own, i just think that it would be good for the kids.But thats just my opinion.




The kids are kids////well said Alpha !!! I knew there was a reason I liked you !!! You have your stabilizer screwed on straight !!! We need to teach our kids all of the things in life to protect them... to prepare them....but hey...we are talking about archery here......Correct me if I am wrong... But at least I go to the 3D range to GET THE F**! AWAY FROM THE REST OF THE BU**>>!! OF EVERYDAY LIFE !!! School...friends...toys...video games...all that crap has enough let downs....archery is a time for me and my family to get together and relax...have fun...shoot..win or lose....no matter,,,but when our boy gets a win....he loves it...he then want s to shoot better....when he doesnt do good....he wants to learn more to be better...to shoot straighter.....and if you have seen our videos you will see that he is a very disciplined and accomplished fingers shooter at the young age of 6 !!!


They are kids !!!! did I mention that ??? They are kids !!! Give them a medal...give them a trophy....but by god....shield them from the dramam and BS of the adult life....you have their whole lives to teach them about the problems of adulthood.:sad:


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## Becktech (Sep 14, 2006)

I agree with you and alpha, but let's not get too far out of the real world-----alpha definately doesn't have his stabilizer screwed on straight!!!


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## RIDGE_RUNNER91 (Feb 21, 2005)

V.A.S.A said:


> If your Mommy and Daddy didnt give you enough attention or your little league team got pounded every week...well dont come here and propose to take that out on the future archers of the next generation....children need guidance...and respect....and to learn from the peers in their environments....Good Lessons...if I had a bad childhood...and I knew the causes and effects...then belive I would do my best to make sure that NO child I knew would suffer any of the shortcomings I endured. QUOTE]
> 
> Hey there VASA there is no reason to bring my mother and father into this. I think that you are wrong. Did they give out medals or trophies for the losers 50 years ago? I wasn't around then but from the stories that I have heard things are only getting worse in this country. Everyone has to be a winner and nobody can get there feeling hurt. Giving a kid a medal at a NATIONAL EVENT for showing up is a joke. People are supposed to get trophies for WINNING not participating.
> 
> ...


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## alfabuck (Dec 12, 2008)

Can't we all just get along. By the way thanks Becktech...i actually stripped the threads out long ago....:tongue:


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## Becktech (Sep 14, 2006)

No problem, I m sure Steph can fix it. How's old black doing? Are the strings and cables on?


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## alfabuck (Dec 12, 2008)

Heck no ,never got them in so hopefully the mailman will bring them today.We'll see.


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## xringbob (Oct 30, 2008)

look if you aint first your last (jmo)


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## flailer (Mar 24, 2006)

*kids*

A little history lesson here. when my kids were little i took them to 3d with me. it actually started with my daughter, she started shooting with me and before long she was doing well enough she was going to the 3d shoots with me and regularly coming home with a trophy. it was not long my son took an interest in the sport, which by the way he previously had no interest in. before long both kids were coming home with trophies. it did not take a couple of the neighbor kids long to come over and see them shooting and i am sure the kids were showing them their trophies. now i have the neighbor boy and his friend both set up and shooting and going to the shoots with us. so if you think that giving out a trophy or two to the kids does not keep the kids interested and even bring more kids into the sport, in my opinion and experience you are wrong
i know nowadays the new thing is noscore, and shoot for fun,and shoot from where you want and just like golf have fun. 
i have heard it all and if we do not keep the kids involved we will not have a sport someday. 
thanks bob


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## stevegabriel (Apr 18, 2007)

When I first took my then 11 year old to a 3D shoot at my club, the VP gave him an NFAA medal. About 2 bucks. He was the only kid under 16 shooting.
2 years later he's still proud of it. 
I shoot a recurve barebow, he shoots a compound with a 3 pin sight and a trigger. We're supposed to shoot at the blue (trad) stakes but he refuses. He prefers "Top Gun" and lives with the occasional miss. 

Give the kids a cheap trophy.


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## John-in-VA (Mar 27, 2003)

I used to help out at a 3d range .We would give all the youth shooters a trophy or metal .Man you should have sean there face's light up.It only cost a couple bucks each .But well worth it , some time we would ask them if they wanted a bigger trophy ,we would let them pick from unclamed trophy's from the past they would pick the biggest one everytime.
Sad day for some clubs if they cant come up with something .


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## treeman65 (Nov 24, 2005)

Bring your kids to ASA they do good things for all the kids.


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## primal-bow (Jun 5, 2008)

i quiet for the same resoans my son trys so hard win :zip:


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## Dead Center (Dec 24, 2006)

What are the ages of the youth classes that you are talking about?

At our club we have 3 youth classes youth 12-14, youth 15-17, and cub 11 years and under.
In the cub classes depending on how many are in it is how we give awards away (we haveour own type of flight system for cubs)

Say there is just 7 cubs in the class we will give 3 first place ribbons, 3 second place ribbons, and 2 third place ribbons. I know this isn't a perfect system but in the cub class every shooter gets a ribbon on how they scored in our flight system. 
As for the other 2 youth classes we give out awards on a 1st, 2nd, and 3rd based on score. Like I said I know it isn't perfect but it seems to work at our club and everyone seems happy with this system.


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## FSL (May 22, 2002)

Truly a can of worms..... As no doubt you are referring to the shoot hosted by the Grande Ronde Bowmen in La Grande, let me provide a little history for you....

The clubs hosting all three legs of the NWTC have generously provided trophies for as many classes as could be anticipated for over the course of the tournament history and generally at least three places. GRB has been providing the third leg of the tournament since about 2001. We were approached earlier this year by the Spokane club with the proposal to limit trophies as per IBO rules to 1 trophy / 5 shooters. We were told that CRB adn EA both wanted to do this. It was then proposed at our next club meeting, voted on, and the motions passed. Trophies as provided previously are our single greatest expense with individual shoot trophies and overall trophies totaling up to $1500 for the shoot ( you have to buy two trophies for a triple crown) . Combine that with the $5/ shooter back to the IBO, target expense etc... and then only have 80-120 shooters and you begin to see the problems associated with providing the shoot. Unused trophies are very expensive when classes are years are printed on them as they no longer have a use.

Trophies are ordered in advance based upon the previous years parcitipation. That being said, every class which had a participant in it in 2008 received at least a first place trophy for all divisions, cubs, youth and adults. If there were more than 5 participants in last years class, two places were ordered, more than 10 and three places etc...There was an error in the reported scores for the one cub that finished 3rd in the overall. She was listed in the FY class for EA and the cubs for CRB. Therefore, only two overall trophies were ordered as that was all that were noted on the results and were anticipated to complete all three legs. This has been corrected and a trophy ordered for the young lady that finished third.

It was never the intention of GRB to limit trophies to the youth. As stated trophies ordered were based upon last years participation. Everyone that did not receive a trophy and should have can contact me and it will be promptly ordered and drop shipped to them.

Our club will probably return to its previous policy for trophies rather than follow the IBO rule. But, I think what I am most concerned about is what the youth were taught about the behaviors of the adults who found offense rather than seek change. I have five children ranging in age from 2.5 to 14. My second missed straight A's one of her terms with a 89.6% and was issued a B. My suggestion to her was to make sure it was not so close as to allow this to happen again. She had straight A's the following term. 

I've shot the finger division for years but Im embarassed to tell people what place I finished when only a few show up for participation. So... whats the opinion. At what point do we stop rewarding participation and reward performance? and what are we saying to the top participants in sports when they all of the participants receive awards?


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## martin480 (Jul 7, 2008)

FSL said:


> Truly a can of worms..... As no doubt you are referring to the shoot hosted by the Grande Ronde Bowmen in La Grande, let me provide a little history for you....
> 
> The clubs hosting all three legs of the NWTC have generously provided trophies for as many classes as could be anticipated for over the course of the tournament history and generally at least three places. GRB has been providing the third leg of the tournament since about 2001. We were approached earlier this year by the Spokane club with the proposal to limit trophies as per IBO rules to 1 trophy / 5 shooters. We were told that CRB adn EA both wanted to do this. It was then proposed at our next club meeting, voted on, and the motions passed. Trophies as provided previously are our single greatest expense with individual shoot trophies and overall trophies totaling up to $1500 for the shoot ( you have to buy two trophies for a triple crown) . Combine that with the $5/ shooter back to the IBO, target expense etc... and then only have 80-120 shooters and you begin to see the problems associated with providing the shoot. Unused trophies are very expensive when classes are years are printed on them as they no longer have a use.
> 
> ...


I have been reading about this, and hearring about it sence the shoot.
I thank you for the real story. I hope that people involved will read this and unerstand the confusion. It is unfortunate, but her father did sign her up in yf in the first leg. With that said, I hope that the people around her will keep encouraging her to continue shooting.Not for the (trophy) but for the LOVE of the sport, and self satisfaction.


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## V.A.S.A (Mar 31, 2009)

*My POINT EXACTLY !!!!*



flailer said:


> A little history lesson here. when my kids were little i took them to 3d with me. it actually started with my daughter, she started shooting with me and before long she was doing well enough she was going to the 3d shoots with me and regularly coming home with a trophy. it was not long my son took an interest in the sport, which by the way he previously had no interest in. before long both kids were coming home with trophies. it did not take a couple of the neighbor kids long to come over and see them shooting and i am sure the kids were showing them their trophies. now i have the neighbor boy and his friend both set up and shooting and going to the shoots with us. so if you think that giving out a trophy or two to the kids does not keep the kids interested and even bring more kids into the sport, in my opinion and experience you are wrong
> i know nowadays the new thing is noscore, and shoot for fun,and shoot from where you want and just like golf have fun.
> i have heard it all and if we do not keep the kids involved we will not have a sport someday.
> thanks bob



Well said ......and I agree....thats the message brother !!!


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## FSL (May 22, 2002)

Thank guys.... We've always taken pride in our participation in this series and if we're in the wrong we'll do everything we can to correct it. I understand the frustration when things don't go the expected way, but there are avenues for correction and we need to focus on them. 

Martin... it was a pleasure seeing you again. Thank you for your support and the fine shooting... the pleasure we see in people enjoying our efforts to put on a good shoot are what keeps this happening.....

Best wishes


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

FSL said:


> Truly a can of worms..... As no doubt you are referring to the shoot hosted by the Grande Ronde Bowmen in La Grande, let me provide a little history for you....
> 
> The clubs hosting all three legs of the NWTC have generously provided trophies for as many classes as could be anticipated for over the course of the tournament history and generally at least three places. GRB has been providing the third leg of the tournament since about 2001. We were approached earlier this year by the Spokane club with the proposal to limit trophies as per IBO rules to 1 trophy / 5 shooters. We were told that CRB adn EA both wanted to do this. It was then proposed at our next club meeting, voted on, and the motions passed. Trophies as provided previously are our single greatest expense with individual shoot trophies and overall trophies totaling up to $1500 for the shoot ( you have to buy two trophies for a triple crown) . Combine that with the $5/ shooter back to the IBO, target expense etc... and then only have 80-120 shooters and you begin to see the problems associated with providing the shoot. Unused trophies are very expensive when classes are years are printed on them as they no longer have a use.
> 
> ...


Excellent info and reply.

As Sec/Trea of a archery club I know the ups and downs of trophies for kids. Our club has a rule much on the order of the old NFAA Constitution and run it through all classes and as in other replies; Competition is about winning and losing.
We don't charge for children 11 years old and under - We do give trophies and all get a ribbon for competing - okay the kids aren't going home empty handed and ribbons cost a few of bucks for a 100 or so. We give a nice looking trophy, but it doesn't cost all that much - trophy company just next door. And then we have a enough shooters entered in all classes to support our awards program throughout. At the top of the score sheet I put up is the following and then I add; trophy if place beside score. And then the complaints; "It shows I got 3rd and in this other class you give that guy a trophy." Well, we all know that just because there is 3 showing in a class doesn't mean there were just 3 in that class - some shooters just shoot for fun and don't turn in a score card. Our Traditional class may have 20 shooters and I once got only 1 score card turned in.
At our club, if anything is hurting kids, it's their own parents. Time and again I have parents that don't turn in their kid's score card or they won't check on how their kids finished and if they do it's months afterwards. we will not carry trophies for anyone past 3 months - Rule after having 150 trophies on hand. 
1 trophy regardless of number in class.
1 trophy for 3 in class.
2 trophies for 6 in class.
3 trophies for 9 in class.

If I have a complaint, it's the manner of handing out Champion status in any organization (sanctioned) state event. My opinion; You have to have more than one in a class to bestow a person Champion. I know for a fact that one such person in a class was given such and he didn't even shoot a 1/3 of the course. He was embarrassed of his shooting and quit, but handed in his score card.


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## nsbc07 (Apr 5, 2009)

I really feel to bring kids to participate is the most important thing. Don't sweat over if he wins or not. If he has the drive to win a tourament, provide all the support you can find. If not, just don't push it.


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## John-in-VA (Mar 27, 2003)

I should have said Cub not youth class.Sorry


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## Bubba Dean (Jun 2, 2005)

Bearbow, I feel your pain. Don't blame the IBO blame the host clubs. IBO's rules under Section F Awards, purses and entry fees clearly states.."In order for any class to be awarded a first place, there must be three or more archers participating in that class." Clubs that host IBO events sometimes modify the rules for their benefit. Personally I feel that it is not the shooters fault that they were only one of two or three that showed up that day and they should be awarded the prize.


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## bluejacket (Dec 19, 2003)

Well I hate to see anyone decideing to leave an organization because a specific rule doesn't do what they think it should. However, if our expectations are such that every member should be 100% happy with every rule I think we are setting our sights a bit too high.

As for the rules and the IBO looking after the kids and helping to get them into this sport. The rules specify minimum standards that clubs must follow to host IBO sanctioned events. The clubs can, and often do, do more than the minimum for awards, payouts and such. Additionally the IBO is, and has been for a long time, strongly supporting our youth, through programs such as Nasp, future bowhunters, and an impessive scholorship program. We understand the value of our youth and continually work to improve and maintain their opportunities.

Now for why are these rules in their current format. We routinely receive correspondance from our membership requesting rule revisions. For the purpose of this discussion I would group them in 2 categories. One group would like to continually subdivide groups and create new classes untill their interests are met. The result of these requests is often several smaller classes with little or no participation. The second group looks at the impact of these small classes. Their requests are generally dirrected at eliminating small classes with minimal participation, with the expectation that all classes offered would have reasonable attendance. The current rule is intended to address both concerns to achievable levels. Some clubs have lots of traditional or crossbow participants and some have none, just like some have lots of women and kids while some see none. This can be said for any class going from region to region. Requireing them to furnish awards in areas that don't support it wastes valuable financial resources. Ignoring the diverse classes in areas that do support them would be equally bad. The current rules put some pressure on the participants to become involved in growing the sport in your area if you want a segment to continue to be recognised. It also requires that the clubs recognise and award that effort when it is successful.

So tell me should we leave this rule as it is and continue to encourage everyone to be a part of making this better? Or should we ignore half of our membership and start looking at who is providing the opportunity resourses for the sport to grow and help them in their financial decisions. Again, every year we get the requests to eliminate small classes, but resist with the support of this rule. Should we really eliminate this rule and in the process eliminate the best argument for maintaining smaller classes? Going back to the beginning, 100% satisfaction is a bit out of reach.

Chris Turner
IBO Director


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## martin480 (Jul 7, 2008)

*IS it IBO or archer*

Ther is a lot to think about in all that has been said on this,(but)back to the start , This all started do to a (CUB) girl doing to all three legs of the NW. triple croun. The girl placed therd and she and her dad were upset that she didn't get a trophy ( that I understand ) But the DAD also sighned her up in the wrong division on the first leg... So is it the IBO that is to blame or the dad?
I think that most clubs do moor than what is expected of them..


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## whosaywhat (Jun 8, 2009)

Barebow
If I may ask what class they shot in and how old is the shooter.
Thank you.


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## CutTheLoop (Dec 26, 2007)

FSL said:


> Truly a can of worms..... As no doubt you are referring to the shoot hosted by the Grande Ronde Bowmen in La Grande, let me provide a little history for you....
> 
> The clubs hosting all three legs of the NWTC have generously provided trophies for as many classes as could be anticipated for over the course of the tournament history and generally at least three places. GRB has been providing the third leg of the tournament since about 2001. We were approached earlier this year by the Spokane club with the proposal to limit trophies as per IBO rules to 1 trophy / 5 shooters. We were told that CRB adn EA both wanted to do this. It was then proposed at our next club meeting, voted on, and the motions passed. Trophies as provided previously are our single greatest expense with individual shoot trophies and overall trophies totaling up to $1500 for the shoot ( you have to buy two trophies for a triple crown) . Combine that with the $5/ shooter back to the IBO, target expense etc... and then only have 80-120 shooters and you begin to see the problems associated with providing the shoot. Unused trophies are very expensive when classes are years are printed on them as they no longer have a use.
> 
> ...



:set1_applaud::set1_applaud::set1_applaud::set1_applaud::set1_applaud:


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## Bearbow (Jan 14, 2006)

*Hope the discussion goes on*

To all who read my tyrant and replied, Thank you. I have found in my life in order to compel a discussion it is wise to strike at one’s passion, and in order to enact a change there needs to be more than one voice. I see from the responses many of you have the same passion for archery as I do and would preserve the sport as an individual and competitive achievement. Also, I see the remarkable abundance of caring extended by parents for their children. I truly believe we all grow through our successes and failures and having friendly competition or discussions with friends, family and peers can be a gauge of our experience, tolerance and dedication to purpose.

I do not have any children. I do not believe children are my past, present or future; However, they are children full of energy, enthusiasm and imaginations we adults need to encourage and educate and perhaps reward for putting forth an effort and dedication in a sport we as adults deem to be a leisure. How many of us adults look forward to being recognized as “Employee of the Month” for a little extra effort at our job which our employer expects us to do because it is our job. How many of us expect to receive a bonus in our paycheck for completing a task (which was our job in the first place) and putting forth a little extra effort. Lets face it, we all look forward to an “Atta Boy” from our friends, peers or employer when we put forth the effort to stand out.

To Chris Turner, IBO Director
No, I do not expect IBO to change the rules to accommodate one individual’s intolerant behavior and rant against what I am sure had been long and deliberate discussions trying to accommodate the majority of shooters. I also think IBO is a good organization, and from the responses and passion invoked by responders, most of them think so also. I would conclude however I do not appear to be a lonely voice howling at the moon when it comes to awarding children by IBO rule.

To FSL; La Grande Archery
Yes, we had our discussion at your 3rd NWTC and I knew you were going to make things right. I congratulate you and your quick response. My main concern was not with La Grande, because lets face it, La Grande has one heck of a great shoot, but how others throughout the organization may have been interpreting the awards rule and how many like me thought this may need to be modified by IBO rule. 

I do hope this discussion does not end here. We now know the expense the clubs hosting the shoots must endure to award trophies and it is not a small amount. Perhaps we need to think outside the box (or plaque) when it comes to the trophy size or material. I would suggest instead of having plaques made with the class and date they have only the shoot title and 1st, 2nd and 3rd. The plaques could then be used for any class (I think the recipient of a trophy knows what class he/she shoots) and a small date tag attached throughout the following years. The overall trophy could have the class and date engraved if need be. 

Thanks again for responding,

Bill, Montana


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## Bearbow (Jan 14, 2006)

*2nd try*

To all who read my tyrant and replied, Thank you. I have found in my life in order to compel a discussion it is wise to strike at one’s passion, and in order to enact a change there needs to be more than one voice. I see from the responses many of you have the same passion for archery as I do and would preserve the sport as an individual and competitive achievement. Also, I see the remarkable abundance of caring extended by parents for their children. I truly believe we all grow through our successes and failures and having friendly competition or discussions with friends, family and peers can be a gauge of our experience, tolerance and dedication to purpose.

I do not have any children. I do not believe children are my past, present or future; However, they are children full of energy, enthusiasm and imaginations we adults need to encourage and educate and perhaps reward for putting forth an effort and dedication in a sport we as adults deem to be a leisure. How many of us adults look forward to being recognized as “Employee of the Month” for a little extra effort at our job which our employer expects us to do because it is our job. How many of us expect to receive a bonus in our paycheck for completing a task (which was our job in the first place) and putting forth a little extra effort. Lets face it, we all look forward to an “Atta Boy” from our friends, peers or employer when we put forth the effort to stand out.

To Chris Turner, IBO Director
No, I do not expect IBO to change the rules to accommodate one individual’s intolerant behavior and rant against what I am sure had been long and deliberate discussions trying to accommodate the majority of shooters. I also think IBO is a good organization, and from the responses and passion invoked by responders, most of them think so also. I would conclude however I do not appear to be a lonely voice howling at the moon when it comes to awarding children by IBO rule.

To FSL; La Grande Archery
Yes, we had our discussion at your 3rd NWTC and I knew you were going to make things right. I congratulate you and your quick response. My main concern was not with La Grande, because lets face it, La Grande has one heck of a great shoot, but how others throughout the organization may have been interpreting the awards rule and how many like me thought this may need to be modified by IBO rule. 

I do hope this discussion does not end here. We now know the expense the clubs hosting the shoots must endure to award trophies and it is not a small amount. Perhaps we need to think outside the box (or plaque) when it comes to the trophy size or material. I would suggest instead of having plaques made with the class and date they have only the shoot title and 1st, 2nd and 3rd. The plaques could then be used for any class (I think the recipient of a trophy knows what class he/she shoots) and a small date tag attached throughout the following years. The overall trophy could have the class and date engraved if need be. 

Thanks again for responding,

Bill, Montana


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## Judy4 (Jan 31, 2003)

When hosting an IBO World Qualifier, the information we send out reads: 
5. The HOST must give substantial awards in all I.B.O. classes. Awards can also be a percentage of entry fees. 
The IBO does not tell a Host club what entry fee's should be or what awards must be given out.
In the IBO Rule Book it states:
F. Awards, Purses, And Entry Fees
1. The number of awards given in amateur classes will be based on ten percent (10%) of the total number of participants in that class at that event in the preceding year, with a maximum of ten (10) awards. 

This rule is directed to the National Championship Triple Crown.
A Host Club for a IBO World Qualifier can use this rule if they want to, but they are never told they have to.

The National Championship Triple Crown clubs do give at lease 3 places for all IBO Youth Classes.

Judy


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## x-force hunter (Apr 10, 2009)

Do the youth classes like YMR 15-17 and 13-14 get monetary awards at the IBO indoor and outdoor worlds or do they only get trophies?


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## bluejacket (Dec 19, 2003)

At the "IBO World & National Championship" events, all of our youth divisions (cub, youth fingers, youth female, youth traditional, ymr13-14, and ymr 15-17 scholorships are awarded. First place receives 2 years (6 quarters), 2nd place gets 5 quarters, 3rd place gets 4 quarters, 4th place gets 3 quarters, 5th place gets 2 quarters and 6th place gets 1 quarter. Any and all monetary awards that are available for any of our youth divisions are placed in an account that becomes available after graduation and 18th birthday. This preserves their eligibility for amature competition status. Last year this totaled nearly $300,000.00 in college scholorships.


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## Justin17 (May 4, 2006)

When I was in the youth classes I would get 1st place trophies all the time when I was the only shooter. It definately kept me interested in shooting IBO. Now that I'm older I really appreciate what those clubs did for the young shooters.


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## hankw_2009 (Apr 2, 2009)

*i have seen*

hey folks,

i agree with the thought of kids getting a trophy for first second and third. and it can be done if the ibo just make the trophies a little less expensive for the kids classes. they may not think it is cost effective. but all the clubs need to see this also. i have introduced many kids(not a real huge amount but close to 50) to 3d shooting in my area. and i have seen kids get really excited about getting a third place trophy or some type of award, and that place the want to shoot better into there minds which cause them to want to do it more. WHICH WE ALL KNOW WE NEED THE KIDS TO KEEP THE SPORT RUNNING. so that is the benifit of trophies.

as per those of u who think well the kids need to pratice more and work harder so that they can get first place. i disagree with u all because kids can only push themselfs as much as they feel before they say" WHY BOTHER!" and put there bow down and never touch it again. and those parents who push the kids well that is another story. push a little, give them the advantages that they need to get better, BUT! dont over push them because they will hate the sport even more.


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## Flint Hills Tex (Nov 3, 2008)

*If everybody's special, then NOBODY'S special!*

When I was a kid growing up in TX, I worked summers on my uncle's farm in KS. Part of my pay were 2 feeder hogs to raise and show at the county fair. Since I was from out of state, I was not allowed to compete against the other 4-H kids, even though I was a member of the 4-H back home. I was the only kid entered open class, and, not suprisingly, my hogs won 1st and 2nd place. 

It was a nice gesture, but it fooled no one, least of all me. I would rather have lost fairly competing against the others than win meaningless prizes! Most kids understand this concept without our having to explain it to them.

You learn more losing to a better archer than by getting an award regardless of your performance. If there are not enough participants in a particular class, then I think there should be specified scores that must be reached to receive a trophy/medal/ribbon. You can still honor the kids for participating with a certificate or something similar.


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## shooter74 (Jul 7, 2005)

*Asa*

Just like treeman said . Bring your kids to the asa. They will do them right... I stop going to the ibo because there pay out was like getting a slap in the face and that is not the case for the asa.


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## archer_nm (Mar 29, 2004)

Boy do I agree with your position and i feel the kids are the most important element of this post. Now to the reason I am here. VASA how dare you say the NFAA used to pull this crap, It has not happened in my state or even in my section. I resent you putting a blanket statement in your thread and think you should think before you open your mouth and by the way are your NFAA dues paid up?? If not then kindly keep your imature statements to your self and if they are then why don't you take action and fix the problem in YOUR State. Thank you very much!!!!


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## V.A.S.A (Mar 31, 2009)

archer_nm said:


> Boy do I agree with your position and i feel the kids are the most important element of this post. Now to the reason I am here. VASA how dare you say the NFAA used to pull this crap, It has not happened in my state or even in my section. I resent you putting a blanket statement in your thread and think you should think before you open your mouth and by the way are your NFAA dues paid up?? If not then kindly keep your imature statements to your self and if they are then why don't you take action and fix the problem in YOUR State. Thank you very much!!!!


Before you slam me....personally...I do not make immature statements...and i did make a blanket statement...if you percieved it that way..then I apologize...when I said the NFAA pulled that crap..I was talking about them not recognizing a single shooter in a particular class....I have alot of friends that had been to shoots in the past...remember...I am 38...I have been shooting in the NFAA for a long time...gave it up for a while....now I am back...and as for my dues....lol.. you are funny...really...i am smiling right now...yes my dues are paid up...and I was not running my mouth...or putting the NFAA down in any way. I was simply pointing out that the NFAA DID Fail to recognize a class or shooter in a class with less than a certain number if shooters in it. That is a fact. Like I said...I apologize if you ...and Im not sure why you would have been....But if you were personally offended by my post I apologize again. I am one of the most enthusiastic archery fanatics you may ever encounter....I just firmly believe that if an archer shoots... one person in his/her class.....they should be recognized and get a trophy or whatever the other shooters are recieving for awards in the other classes.


thanks for pointing out that you were offended....I certainly would not want to offend any archers ever. 




here is a nice cold beer for you....in New Mexico....:darkbeer:

take care and shoot em right down the middle.


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## V.A.S.A (Mar 31, 2009)

V.A.S.A said:


> Before you slam me....personally...I do not make immature statements...and i did NOT make a blanket statement...if you percieved it that way..then I apologize...when I said the NFAA pulled that crap..I was talking about them not recognizing a single shooter in a particular class....I have alot of friends that had been to shoots in the past...remember...I am 38...I have been shooting in the NFAA for a long time...gave it up for a while....now I am back...and as for my dues....lol.. you are funny...really...i am smiling right now...yes my dues are paid up...and I was not running my mouth...or putting the NFAA down in any way. I was simply pointing out that the NFAA DID Fail to recognize a class or shooter in a class with less than a certain number if shooters in it. That is a fact. Like I said...I apologize if you ...and Im not sure why you would have been....But if you were personally offended by my post I apologize again. I am one of the most enthusiastic archery fanatics you may ever encounter....I just firmly believe that if an archer shoots... one person in his/her class.....they should be recognized and get a trophy or whatever the other shooters are recieving for awards in the other classes.
> 
> 
> thanks for pointing out that you were offended....I certainly would not want to offend any archers ever.
> ...




Wanted to make the correction to my post...I left out the word NOT before blanket statement.


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## GimpyPaw (Aug 10, 2008)

Just a suggestion, but wouldn't it be a simple thing to have some "generic" 2nd and 3rd place trophies on hand for times when participation in a class exceeds the expectations? I realize it's expensive to buy trophies, even more so when you engrave the year and class, but why not just go ahead and order the IBO standard of 1 place per 5 shooters and then order some trophies that just say "Seccond Place" and "Third Place". 

Let those trophies collect dust until they are needed, but at least you have something on hand to dish out. Heck, might be even easier and cheaper to just get some silver and bronze colored medals. Buy them in bulk with nothing but an engraving to symbolize archery shooting.


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## archerm3 (Jan 4, 2007)

alfabuck said:


> Your right ,allowing little kid to recieve a trophy for shooting archery is crazy.Lets teach um a lesson and not show them any appreciation for their efforts because of this crime filled tough world we live in.We show them something positive now and their likely to have failed relationships,lead a life a crime and be jobless some day....ukey:.............:tongue:...
> 
> 
> > Um, yes, I think that was the point he was trying to make. Different philosophies here. I guess the sarcasm doesn't work when it actually reinforces the point.


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## Flint Hills Tex (Nov 3, 2008)

Just so y'all understand me:

I was recently at a 3-D shoot, and somebody brought their 9 yr. old daughter along to shoot. She had a cute little 12# longbow...

We let her shoot from the kids' stake, obviously, and sometimes her bow just wasn't strong enough to make the arrows penetrate the foam. They'd just bounce off, once in a while. Everybody was watching her shoot, and we'd give her the points she would have had, had her arrows stuck.

But nobody, not even her parents, gave her a kill, when the arrow was obviously not in the vitals zone. She wouldn't have wanted that, either.

She still had a blast! So, can you bend the rules to keep up a kid's interest in the sport? Sure, as long as it's not cheatin'. 

I still think you're cheating the kid, though, by giving them a trophy for a lousy score, just 'cause there was no competition.


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## Bowtech54 (Sep 20, 2006)

Our local club gives each Future Bowhunter and Cub a trophy or medallion for participating. They don't even have to shoot the entire course!!! It's not that much cost if you look at the big picture. I agree with one of the other post that the IBO catches alot of bad press when it is actually the local clubs or those that are holding a national or world event. :elch::BrownBear:


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