# I am going to commit heresy!



## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

Ok guys - there are lots of doe tags in the area I bow hunt this year - so I am going to try the Rage KE broadheads that were went to me last year to test. I did not buy them - they were sent to me by someone who was sponsored by the company to try and report on how they worked with a traditional bow. They are a 2 blade expandable that expand to an incridible 1 1/2" cutting surface designed for bows with 40 KE or less. If they work well - they ought to create one heck of a wound channel and blood trail.

Am I confident and convinced - well... - they appear to be well designed and appear as if they would work from any angle and no matter how you hit the animal - but am I confident enough to have only those heads in my quiver - ah - nope. If I get a shot at a P&Y - I think I will grab an arrow tipped with a stinger or steelforce, at least until I have tested these expanadables. I cannot be confident in something I have never tested and verly few others have tested.

I know they work well out of compounds, I have helped track and drag a few whitetails shot by friends with those rages and you barely need a flashlight to follow the blood trails. but out of trad bows - who knows.

I will film the blood trail and entrance and exit wounds and show how they worked - or perhaps failed to work. I have no means of filming the actual shot - as my video camera has no tripod mount (its a cheap one).


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## Lil Okie (Mar 25, 2008)

LOL.. Good luck.. It's like throwing an axe thru an animal..:wink:


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## huntnmuleys (Jan 7, 2004)

ive never used mechanicals myself, even back in my compound days, but im betting that head works. anxious to see your results!


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## Night Wing (Feb 4, 2009)

I'll be interested in seeing/reading your results. If you bag a deer, make sure you state what poundage you're shooting.


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## voodoofire1 (Jan 24, 2006)

How well do they penetrate a phone book?....serious OSB, try just one and take a pic ,I'd really like to see....


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## JNG (Sep 15, 2007)

This will not work well.


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## MAC 11700 (Feb 22, 2011)

I do wish you luck...I've heard good things...and bad things about them...but..do hope you at least try them on something before shooting them into a deer..and please make sure to check the tip to verify it's really razor sharp...I just took the word of a company about their supposedly razor sharp cut on contact mechanical..and was very un-pleasantly surprised when I did a paper test on them..and found them to be very very very dull...and to me the whole issue is about being razor sharp..

Mac


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## jcs-bowhunter (Jul 7, 2007)

Be sure to include arrow criteria (weight, FOC and speed) to the conversation so we have technical details to discuss.

Another "non traditional" broadhead I would like to explore is the Slick Trick Razor Trick 125


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## sawtoothscream (Apr 19, 2008)

good luck. i know one guy on rages staff is a trad guy and he uses the 2" cuts. idk what his set up is for them though.


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

I can tell you what bow and arrows - Trad Tech Pinnacle Riser with Extreme BF Limbs just over 47lbs at my 29.75" draw. Carbon Tech Cheetah arrows 355 grains total arrow weight (these are a tad heavier than the ones I did my penetration testing with they were 349 grains - i started using a nock adapter and left these a tad longer)

These go 209 fps - the FOC is just under 12% (easton recommends between 10-15% for hunting)


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## onlyaspike (Apr 16, 2007)

Id like to see the results also......I use the 2" cut Rage 2 blades with my compound with GREAT results. I know there are Rage "Haters" and "Lovers" both, but my personal experience with them has been great.....with a compound.


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## J. Wesbrock (Dec 17, 2003)

If you don't trust the head to perform on a "Pope and Young buck," why would you trust it on a doe?


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

J. Wesbrock said:


> If you don't trust the head to perform on a "Pope and Young buck," why would you trust it on a doe?


Exactly!

Ray :shade:


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## sawtoothscream (Apr 19, 2008)

dang. im newer to trad hunting but 355gr with a trad bow sounds light, think mine are about 568gr. but like said im new to this stuff


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## nmubowyer (Feb 7, 2008)

i think someone on here posted pics of a deer they killed with one last yr, im interested to see what you think


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

regarding my statement about not taking my first shot with one of them at a P&Y and will at a doe - well - I don't know about where you guys hunt - but by me P&Y bucks are animals that you are lucky to get a shot at once every 5 years or so - does are a dime a dozen - like pigeons. So yes - I will test a new broadhead that I am not sure of shooting at a doe and not at a P&Y - a P&Y buck is of more value to me than a doe - If the broadhead does not perform and I lose a doe - it is a loss and one that will be felt - but not like the loss of a P&Y. So when I am going to test something that is relatively untested with trad bows - you bet I will test it on a doe before a P&Y. When I get a shot at a P&Y - i don't want to have anything on my mind than the spot I want to hit - I don't want to be wondering if a broadhead will perform as I am drawing my bow on him. If the Rage works well on the doe - then I will be confident and use it on anything - but until I use it and see results - I will not use it on a big boy.


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## voodoofire1 (Jan 24, 2006)

You aren't going to test it first at home, before loosing it on a live animal?....


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## blacktail86 (Oct 21, 2008)

sharpbroadhead said:


> regarding my statement about not taking my first shot with one of them at a P&Y and will at a doe - well - I don't know about where you guys hunt - but by me P&Y bucks are animals that you are lucky to get a shot at once every 5 years or so - does are a dime a dozen - like pigeons. So yes - I will test a new broadhead that I am not sure of shooting at a doe and not at a P&Y - a P&Y buck is of more value to me than a doe - If the broadhead does not perform and I lose a doe - it is a loss and one that will be felt - but not like the loss of a P&Y. So when I am going to test something that is relatively untested with trad bows - you bet I will test it on a doe before a P&Y. When I get a shot at a P&Y - i don't want to have anything on my mind than the spot I want to hit - I don't want to be wondering if a broadhead will perform as I am drawing my bow on him. If the Rage works well on the doe - then I will be confident and use it on anything - but until I use it and see results - I will not use it on a big boy.



nope thats not the stupidest thing ive ever heard....... life is life. doesnt matter what animals life your taking. i really fail to see your logic in your posts.


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

sharpbroadhead said:


> regarding my statement about not taking my first shot with one of them at a P&Y and will at a doe - well - I don't know about where you guys hunt - but by me P&Y bucks are animals that you are lucky to get a shot at once every 5 years or so - does are a dime a dozen - like pigeons. So yes - I will test a new broadhead that I am not sure of shooting at a doe and not at a P&Y - a P&Y buck is of more value to me than a doe - If the broadhead does not perform and I lose a doe - it is a loss and one that will be felt - but not like the loss of a P&Y. So when I am going to test something that is relatively untested with trad bows - you bet I will test it on a doe before a P&Y. When I get a shot at a P&Y - i don't want to have anything on my mind than the spot I want to hit - I don't want to be wondering if a broadhead will perform as I am drawing my bow on him. If the Rage works well on the doe - then I will be confident and use it on anything - but until I use it and see results - I will not use it on a big boy.


That's what I basically thought. I try to view all living creatures as equals in the right to life...and I personally don't see any difference between a buck or a doe.

I have to have 100% confidence in my equipment before I test it on a living creature. If I'm going to try and kill something, I don't want to risk having it suffer anymore than it needs to on my behalf, which means I don't want to risk wounding an animal because I'm not sure how my equipment will do.

If I want to test out my equipment or find out if my equipment can do the job, I'll ask those with more experience, test it on a dead animal or try to imitate the chest cavity of the animal I'm hunting to see how my equipment will do. I personally won't use does.....or phonebooks :wink:

Ray :shade:


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## J. Wesbrock (Dec 17, 2003)

I can't say I've ever felt any different degree of responsibility when dropping the string on a deer based on the absence or presence of antlers. If I ever did, it would be time to seriously re-evaluate myself as a hunter.


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## huntnmuleys (Jan 7, 2004)

sharpbroadhead said:


> regarding my statement about not taking my first shot with one of them at a P&Y and will at a doe - well - I don't know about where you guys hunt - but by me P&Y bucks are animals that you are lucky to get a shot at once every 5 years or so - does are a dime a dozen - like pigeons. So yes - I will test a new broadhead that I am not sure of shooting at a doe and not at a P&Y - a P&Y buck is of more value to me than a doe - If the broadhead does not perform and I lose a doe - it is a loss and one that will be felt - but not like the loss of a P&Y. So when I am going to test something that is relatively untested with trad bows - you bet I will test it on a doe before a P&Y. When I get a shot at a P&Y - i don't want to have anything on my mind than the spot I want to hit - I don't want to be wondering if a broadhead will perform as I am drawing my bow on him. If the Rage works well on the doe - then I will be confident and use it on anything - but until I use it and see results - I will not use it on a big boy.


does are a dime a dozen so youll test something your not sure of on em? wow...... probably get banned if i put the rest of my thoughts on here, but you sir, need to take a serious look at your way of thinking.


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

I base my shots on antlers many times - I will not shoot a small buck as long as doe tags are available and there are many of them. I am not a panthiest and don't view all living creatures as equal - If I did I would not kill and eat deer. I swat and kill bugs all the time, I killed a skunk that would not stop hanging around my house and kept spraying my dog and did the same with a porky because I don't want a dog with a snout full of quills.

I hunt deer for sport - not religion. That being said, I process and eat all of the venison from every animal I kill - in fact - we rarely eat beef, because so far I have been blessed with the opportunity to kill enough deer every year to feed my family till the next season. I shoot my bow nearly every day and shoot in leagues all year long and shoot in as many competitions as I can - why - so that I am the most accurate shot I can be and when the shot arrives - the arrow goes where it belongs and I am not out there wounding animals.

I make no appologies for being honest and saying outright that I value big antlered bucks more than does - just like you guys value deer more than the worms that you kill to bait for fish. It is all relative. If does were scarse and the deer herd was in grave danger - then I would not shoot does - it all depends.

Regarding degrees of responsibility - I don't get that - I am responsible for every animal I kill. 

When I started using lighter arrows - I did the same thing - I was not sure if all the hype against them was true - I tested as well as I could at home -but my first shot with one was on a doe -and when it blasted right through the opposite shoulder and when I skinned that deer and it looked like a rifle shot - that pretty much said it all - and it happened again a year later - except not through the shoulder blade - but the humerous bone. I am completely confident in my choice of arrows - tried and tested both at home and in the field. 

The Rage I have only tested at home. After I harvest a doe or two with it and if all goes well with it - I will then have as much confidence as I can have, but this is jumping way ahead - lets see what happens with the first doe I shoot - it may fail completely or do no better than the heads I use (by better I mean a better blood trail - dead is dead).


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

sharpbroadhead said:


> I am not a panthiest and don't view all living creatures as equal - If I did I would not kill and eat deer. I swat and kill bugs all the time, I killed a skunk that would not stop hanging around my house and kept spraying my dog and did the same with a porky because I don't want a dog with a snout full of quills.


I would and have done things just like that...the difference is...when I go to kill something...I don't test my choice of weapon out on them because I'm not sure it will kill it. 

When I go to kill something....fly, ant, deer or elk for examples...I'm not testing my equipment to see if it can kill it. I know it will. I don't want it suffering anymore than it needs to by running the risk of wounding it.

Ray :shade:


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

Sooo then we should never try anything new on an animal - hmm - I know that I will place the arrow in the vitals - so I know that I will kill it - what I am not sure of is what kind of blood trail I will get and any honest hunter will admit that he has shot animals and made good shots, but has not recorvered them because of a poor blood trail - it has happened to all of us - even Ishi i am sure. I don't know what type of blood trail I will get - and there is no way to test other than shooting an animal - and if i get a bad blood trail - and end up not finding what I know I have killed - I would rather lose a doe than a trophy buck - simple as that. But I am not going to not try something new because it has not been tried and tested either - if it works well in home tests and I am confident that it will not fall apart on impact and will allow for penetration through the animal (all of which I am with this head) - then I will test it.

The only reason I am not 100% confident is all the talk in these forums (which many times amounts to nothing) - but I don't want some thought of possible failure going through my head at the moment of release on a trophy buck that I am lucky to get a shot at once every 5 years!


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## blacktail86 (Oct 21, 2008)

osb why is it you thats always getting into arguements with everyone? starting to see a pattern here. im outta here before this thread gets bad


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

sharpbroadhead said:


> Sooo then we should never try anything new on an animal - hmm -


I don't believe you should unless you feel confident that it will kill it.

If you want to test it....test it on a dead animal or a target medium/mediums that imitate the kill zone.



sharpbroadhead said:


> I know that I will place the arrow in the vitals - so I know that I will kill it - what I am not sure of is what kind of blood trail I will get and any honest hunter will admit that he has shot animals and made good shots, but has not recorvered them because of a poor blood trail - it has happened to all of us - even Ishi i am sure. I don't know what type of blood trail I will get - and there is no way to test other than shooting an animal - and if i get a bad blood trail - and end up not finding what I know I have killed - I would rather lose a doe than a trophy buck - simple as that.


Now that's a better explanation of your reasoning and something I can support.



sharpbroadhead said:


> The only reason I am not 100% confident is all the talk in these forums (which many times amounts to nothing) - but I don't want some thought of possible failure going through my head at the moment of release on a trophy buck that I am lucky to get a shot at once every 5 years!


Sooooo...is the ONLY thing you're concerned about is the size of the bloodtrail and not whether the broadheads will open or not and effectively kill the deer?

Ray :shade:


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

blacktail86 - i dunno - nine guys posted that they would like to see the results - 4 guys are upset because I am honset and admit that a big buck means more to me than a doe. 

Just because you don't like what I post - does not mean that I am out there starting arguments with everyone - the majority of people who posted in this thread don't seem to feel that I am starting an argument at all - which I was and am not. 

but perhaps_* you blacktail86*_ quoting me and saying: "that is the stupidest thing I have ever heard" is starting an argument. Even though I think things people sometimes say are stupid - I do not post that what they say is the "stupidest thing I have ever heard"


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

LOL - "not _effectively_ kill deer" - if they are dead - it is effective. I can kill deer with it - of that I have no doubt - but if the blades do not open properly - I am concerned that I will not have a good blood trail - but the way it is designed and in the testing I did at home - it seems impossible for them not to open correctly - but I have read posts on these forums where guys claim that they have not - so that is where and why I don't have 100% confidence until I have actually used them.


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

sharpbroadhead said:


> LOL - "not _effectively_ kill deer" - if they are dead - it is effective.


LOL...and if they're NOT dead...than they're NOT very effective! :wink:



sharpbroadhead said:


> I can kill deer with it - of that I have no doubt - but if the blades do not open properly -but I have read posts on these forums where guys claim that they have not - so that is where and why I don't have 100% confidence until I have actually used them.


That's EXACTLY the reason why I won't use them! If I had 100% confidence in their ability to kill deer when they don't open up...than I might try them...but I don't.

Ray :shade:


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## grantmac (May 31, 2007)

Opting for a potentially ineffective set-up based-upon lack of antlers is ethically defunct, there is no way around it. Any animal is considered wounded until recovered, thinking otherwise is blowing smoke up your own backside.

-Grant


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## onlyaspike (Apr 16, 2007)

I think everyone should give sharpbroadhead a little slack on this one..... Im sure he's shot the Rages and practiced with them to become efficient enough to hunt with them or he wouldnt even consider using them. I plan on harvesting my 1st whitetail this year with traditional equipment and I have put in some serious time shooting this summer to be confident in my ability to be able to hit the "spot".....My plan if all works out as planned is to tag a doe in the first couple days to take the edge off myself mentally, PROVE TO MYSELF that my choice of equipment is what I HOPE IT IS, and hopefully give myself the knowledge to harvest a mature buck when the chance presents itself. I dont think of a doe as a lesser of an animal by no means, and I believe sharpbroadhead doesnt either. I dont plan on swapping out my Simmons' Landsharks for Rage's anytime soon out of my Dorado, but I have some firsthand experiences with the AMAZING BLOODTRAILS they can leave when placed in the vitals of a whitetail......Id like to see some Rage penetration tests shot out of a recurve and then Id like to see the results (blood trails/short recovery) on a deer.


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## MAC 11700 (Feb 22, 2011)

I appreciate all of the honesty in this thread...and lack of fighting...so please let's discuss this..and not start a flaming war....This is a legit discussion..and needs to be evaluated..Every body hunts differently....and not all believe the same..so..we should at least look at what he is doing before condemning him for it..

I too have wondered if all of the hype against mechanicals was just that...hype....and asked questions here and elsewhere..seeking advise from those who may have used them on traditional set ups..

What I found was many had..but..were reluctant to say...some for the arguments that would start...but..there were just as many folks I talked with..that had some bad experiences with them...and that can't be ruled out..

What I gathered from my researching on the matter...all boiled down to the range the animal is shot..and where it is hit. The Rage's have worked well with compounds..and people who use them...swear by them more than those who don't.This is a fact...same for the manufacture of heads I had planned on using..but..I had to decide on a few of things..and see if it would fit my criteria of what a head should offer..

1) Is the head exactly as advertised...ie razor sharp for a CoC head

2) What is the minimum opening requirements...ie how much force will be used to open and work as advertised..

3) Is the head strong enough to hold together through a shoulder bone if hit wrong....

In all honesty...there is so much crap out there on every head being built..it is difficult to actually determine what is truth..and what isn't..but..in my case..my mechanical I was going to use failed on #1..and that stopped me dead in my tracks...Why...I hunt at various yardages..and depending on where I am hunting...it can be out to 50 yards..so...my criteria is a lot different than many others. especially for those who are hunting at 20 yards and under.. I feel if a person is hunting like I do..they should use every advantage they can and have a super razor sharp head that doesn't take any energy away from the equation..and has a solid blade design that isn't prone to breakage..but...this is my criteria as I said..

Sharp..while I know you have your own criteria for using them..and trust those who you have talked to about them..please do yourself and the deer you plan on hunting a favor and do a little testing on them to see how well they hold up at the ranges you are shooting them at..before trying them on a deer..

Mac


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## P&y only (Feb 26, 2009)

I think the Op should reconsider rather than defend his position. I understand his theory, but you still need to respect the animal enough to be sure you can either kill it humanely or not shoot it. Does this mean that since there are alot of does, it's ok to chuck arrows at them from 80yards too? I mean really, it's just a doe right? WRONG! Bashing is not needed here but reconsideration is.


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## huntnmuleys (Jan 7, 2004)

well i do gotta say i understand valuing a buck over a doe, as far as which i want more, ect. but i wouldnt test something i wasnt 100% sure would kill on a doe because its less than a buck. think id try more extensive testing at home first at least. if your confidnent the head will kill the buck and doe (and it most likely will just fine), then i can see using it. however, the id shoot it at a doe but not a buck is still concerning to me, because that really sounds like knowing ya got inadequate equipment. if your home testing shows it will hold and open fine, and your confident to use it, id use it on whatever came along, buck or doe. if not good enough for both, id leave it at home and stick with the old standbys...


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## J. Wesbrock (Dec 17, 2003)

huntnmuleys said:


> well i do gotta say i understand valuing a buck over a doe, as far as which i want more, ect. but i wouldnt test something i wasnt 100% sure would kill on a doe because its less than a buck. think id try more extensive testing at home first at least. if your confidnent the head will kill the buck and doe (and it most likely will just fine), then i can see using it. however, the id shoot it at a doe but not a buck is still concerning to me, because that really sounds like knowing ya got inadequate equipment. if your home testing shows it will hold and open fine, and your confident to use it, id use it on whatever came along, buck or doe. if not good enough for both, id leave it at home and stick with the old standbys...


Exactly!


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## hillwilly (May 20, 2011)

i'd try it. someone has to take the maiden voyage and see if it works. if nobody tried new things we'd all be throwing rocks at animals and discussing heavy or light rocks on dangerous game. Sharp you can obviously shoot good and I've heard of the rages not opening on a double lung, the deer was still recovered. I say lets see some testing and some real results. good luck hunting


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## Forrest Halley (Jul 24, 2011)

OSB,
I have no problem with your enthusiasm to try out a new broadhead. My concern is that you have doubts in your equipment that you intend to use to harvest a proud and wild animal with. Your disregard for the efficiency of the harvest coupled with the cheapening of one sex over the other is absurd. There is no need to rile up the people of this forum to get behind a silly youtube video made for the sake of some half hearted "test" on the supposedly less important model of white tailed deer. You can try to justify this any way you want, but at the end of the day there is something lacking deep inside you for this to even be a consideration. IF you absolutely have to do this why not wait until gun season is in so that someone can be available to clean up any mess you make. Better yet stick to the proven equipment and antler hunt leaving the does to the men and women who appreciate their bounty enough to take the cleanest most ethical approach to the hunt. There is a reason the words "first REDUCED to the hunter's possession," are in the Virginia game laws. It is a subtle reminder to us to be humbled when we harvest wildlife. I will not eat my words if all goes well sir, as your initial doubt and intent to proceed expressed has spoken volumes about your character. I pray that good sense will intervene. 
Sincerely,
Forrest Halley


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

Forrest - I wish I could give you the help you need - I will pray for ya brother.


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## kegan (Aug 28, 2006)

Miswording. I think that's all the real issue here. It's good that folks test something new under real circumstances. I also think that what Sharpbroadhead is really saying is that if he got a chance at a once in a life time trophy, he'd rather go with what he already knows is tried and true. Makes sense. I personally haven't had the opportunity at any deer to consider shooting does "old hat" but that's a realtively prevelant way of thinking. I'm not really happy about that but that's not what we're talking about here, is it? Besides, not really a big concern as Sharpbroadhead doesn't really seem to be disregarding life in general, as I've seen lots of people who really DON'T have any respect for game animals... 

As for the Rage I think it would work, but I'm curious as to what would happen under less perfect circumstances? Sharpbroadhead is shooting well tuned gear with tight accuracy. Mechanicals, as well as drawing the big hole crowd, also draw the imperfect tune crowd. I have the feeling marketing something like that would spell disaster in the future. In this case? I forsee a dead deer and a relatively pleased hunter. For others who are less capable? Hmm...


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## SteveB (Dec 18, 2003)

Another character reveal - followed by the usual "who me?"


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## Str8 Shooter (Oct 15, 2005)

Personally, I wouldn't shoot the Rages out of a recurve or compound. That's not based on hype or talk. That's based on shooting them and the experience I've had tracking deer that were shot with them. My brother bought them thinking they would be the best thing to shoot at a deer. He shoots a 68# compound, 385 gr. arrows and an avg. speed of 280 fps. He shot two does with the Rages and lost both. The first was a broadside shot from a little over twenty yards. We found decent blood for the first 50 yards with some frothy bubbles. Figured it was a good double lung hit. He wasn't sure cuz' there was a lot of arrow hanging out. A little further down the trail we found the arrow, tip was deformed and blades were gone. Lost deer. The next one he shot was a slight quartering towards angle from about 18 yards. Hit the right spot but the arrow didn't go through all the way. Again, good blood for the first 50 yards until we found the back end of the arrow. The trail started to dry up shortly after. A little further and I found one of the blades laying on a leaf with a few drops of blood. We tracked that one for several hundred yards until the blood dried up. My brother and hunting bud kept on the direction of the blood. I walked into a nearby field and had the deer jump up on the other side of a mound 10 ft. away. I saw both sides of her and the entry side had a gash along the ribs back towards the stomach and the other side had a small hole with the intestine protruding. She took off across the neighboring properties and we couldn't get permission to track her. Again, lost deer. 

After that my bro gave me the remaining head he had. I shot it from my recurve into a block target several times and managed to bend one blade in that soft target. Best I could figure was the blades were sheering off going through ribs or deflecting and that resulted in poor penetration and and lost deer. 

As to the Rage 40 KE it uses the same blade thickness only smaller cutting diamater. I had one of my hunting friend buy a pack to try out last fall on deer with his recurve. After he test fired one of the heads and busted the head on a broadhead target he had the common sense to realize he was better off with another head. 

I have tested various expandables and the simple reality is that while they do work sometimes they do fail. And they fail far more frequently than a solid head. The expandable has a greater risk of deflecting due to the nature of opening mechanism and the suck a fair amount of KE out of the arrow as the blades open. The Rages with the rear deploying head utilize less KE but they still do. The arrow hits and you have the initial energy transfer as the arrow encounters resistance and again as the blades slide out.

Just my opinion. I've tried em' and I've followed deer hit by them and in all cases found them lacking. I'd rather spend $40 bucks on something more worthwhile.


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## Forrest Halley (Jul 24, 2011)

sharpbroadhead said:


> Forrest - I wish I could give you the help you need - I will pray for ya brother.


It's fine if you find me to be off the deep end on hunting ethics. As to their origin, I was a very small child out deer hunting with my father when a herd of does came by. My father selected the oldest one and fired a single shot killing it instantly. The other deer stood motionless as I asked aloud, "Why don't you shoot another one?" His reply was that it was not necessary to kill more than we needed. Once I saw him lose a deer and it was very troubling to him as we looked for hours until the falling snow covered the trail. I appreciate your prayers. I just do not see the need to take the risks of wounding or maiming when the need to feed is not life or death. I'd be the first one out there trying to give a deer a mortal papercut if my family was starving and it was all I had. Not the case here is it? I've made my point here and I'm dropping it. 

Both hands on the paddle...prepare to stir...


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## trapperDave (Mar 12, 2005)

OSB, why dont you do some more phone book testing for us...those rages against whatever else you have?


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## voodoofire1 (Jan 24, 2006)

I'll bet they won't survive the first shot, probably blow the blades right off even with a Mayberry phone book......Come on OSB, whatcha got to lose?.... but you'll sure gain understanding.....


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## MAC 11700 (Feb 22, 2011)

I would be willing to wager they would hold up to a single phone book...1 x at least.. especially at some of the sedate speeds a recurve can put on them..Everyone I've talked to that had real issues with the blades breaking were my compound shooter friends shooting 275-280 fps or better..I would worry more about them breaking or not penetrating as well if a person got a bad hit out at 30-40 yards...like on on a glancing hit..or shoulder shot..At 10 or 20 yards...I don't think it's going to matter a great deal...heck..I have a friend that shoots a 55 lb recurve and he has been using the older 2 blade Spit fires for many years..and hasn't lost one due to any type of failure...but he is about one of the most pickiest people when it comes to taking a shot too..and I know just how weak some of those very thin blades are on those early broad heads..I've lost many of them through a single sheet of 1/4" Luann plywood with my trad bows when I was testing them...All of these newer heads are way better now-a-days...( just read what all the manufactures say...lol...lol...lol...)...but like I said...my friend is super picky on taking a shot..it has to be perfect...otherwise he won't...I would wager as well that (at least of what I have read from him ) Sharp is very much like my friend in that regard...

All in all...finding any mechanical that is and does exactly as advertised..is not going to be easy..there is just way too much hype and fan-boys of all of them on the market..and and way too many You Tube videos out to prove or dis-prove them all... Also...since the manufactures won't really talk in specifics to you when you tell them you want to use them on a traditional set up...even if they have staff shooters using them on their traditional rigs...it cast some serious doubt for my personal taste...This is one of the reasons I am hesitant to use them and to invest my time and money on them anymore....I really believe that if they worked as great on our bows as what some of the conventional heads do....then they would be advertising them like crazy to capture some of the market share with them....I do expect to see this change...after all since Traditional is becoming more popular again....so now is a good time to do some serious testing on them with trad bows......For myself anyway..since I am not my friend..and don't limit my shots to 20 yards or less from a 20' high tree stand..I see the need for a well tuned conventional COC head that is strong and razor sharp....I know that ain't going to guarantee me 100% success..but as long as I do my part I don't have to worry about blades shearing off if the deer jumps the string..and my good shot becomes a all too easy bad shot..I think the manufacturers know this as well..especially when you have articles like this written about fixed vs mechanicals....http://www.huntingblades.com/mevsfiblbr.html

Like it was already said..I too would like to see just how well they actually do at the lower velocities...but...I don't want to be the one testing them on animals..

Mac


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## rattus58 (Jul 9, 2007)

sharpbroadhead said:


> Ok guys - there are lots of doe tags in the area I bow hunt this year - so I am going to try the Rage KE broadheads that were went to me last year to test. I did not buy them - they were sent to me by someone who was sponsored by the company to try and report on how they worked with a traditional bow. They are a 2 blade expandable that expand to an incridible 1 1/2" cutting surface designed for bows with 40 KE or less. If they work well - they ought to create one heck of a wound channel and blood trail.
> 
> Am I confident and convinced - well... - they appear to be well designed and appear as if they would work from any angle and no matter how you hit the animal - but am I confident enough to have only those heads in my quiver - ah - nope. If I get a shot at a P&Y - I think I will grab an arrow tipped with a stinger or steelforce, at least until I have tested these expanadables. I cannot be confident in something I have never tested and verly few others have tested.
> 
> ...


If a broadhead needs to have velocity to open, it would seem that just an arrow leaving the string should qualify it.

That being said, for those that like mechanicals should shoot them. I don't like anything but simplicity and a file... :grin:

Aloha... :beer:


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## voodoofire1 (Jan 24, 2006)

I'll tell ya, I wouldn't mind trying them out of my setup, but I sure don't want to pay $40 or $50 bucks for that opportunity, my setup puts a 568gr arrow out of my 80# er right at 215-217 if my chrono is correct today,(it has it's moments) and that's, according to the calc., 58.32-59.41 of ke, more than enough to cover the 40ke Rages they have out....what kinda KE does the reg 2 and 3 blade Rages need to work?


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## MAC 11700 (Feb 22, 2011)

voodoofire1 said:


> I'll tell ya, I wouldn't mind trying them out of my setup, but I sure don't want to pay $40 or $50 bucks for that opportunity, my setup puts a 568gr arrow out of my 80# er right at 215-217 if my chrono is correct today,(it has it's moments) and that's, according to the calc., 58.32-59.41 of ke, more than enough to cover the 40ke Rages they have out....what kinda KE does the reg 2 and 3 blade Rages need to work?


Don't know..but I can tell you their web sight statements are very misleading...to say the least..All mechanicals use some KE to open..just as all broadheads will deflect depending on the angle they hit something solid...Their web sight says otherwise though...This is the hype I was talking about..

One thing for certain...only 1 sight that sells mechanicals makes a high KE suggestion...and that is the N.A.P. sight...on theirs..they suggest nothing below 45 ft.lbs. of KE for their heads..While certainly high by a lot of peoples standards..they certainly ain't trying to over hype their heads..and are being very conservative 

Voodoo...with that heavy an arrow moving that fast...you could just use blunts and be ok....lol...lol...lol...( Just kidding ) 

Mac


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## rattus58 (Jul 9, 2007)

MAC 11700 said:


> Don't know..but I can tell you their web sight statements are very misleading...to say the least..All mechanicals use some KE to open..just as all broadheads will deflect depending on the angle they hit something solid...Their web sight says otherwise though...This is the hype I was talking about..
> 
> One thing for certain...only 1 sight that sells mechanicals makes a high KE suggestion...and that is the N.A.P. sight...on theirs..they suggest nothing below 45 ft.lbs. of KE for their heads..While certainly high by a lot of peoples standards..they certainly ain't trying to over hype their heads..and are being very conservative
> 
> ...


Yer right about that part... not going into a long story, we had a kid we through out of an advanced bowhunter class for coming to class with a pig he shot with a field point. He was fortunate in two respects, one, our Wildlife agency in their *infinite* wisdom here in Hawaii, can't issue citation. Two, though we as instructors are "volunteers" for DOCARE, the enforcement division, we cannot issue citation either as instructors....

Not to belabor something once before mentioned, but I *clobbered * a turkey that had heard me coming, jumped/flew up into a tree notch where I *cleaned him out* with a rubber blunt that I had grabbed by accident from my side quiver.... Messy ... but dropped it like a stone.... literally.... I'm not condoning... just saying... with enough momentum....


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## northern boy (Aug 25, 2010)

Good luck with your set up good test light arrow an exspandable broardhead. I think at the speed you are getting it will make a very big hole an short tracking if it,s well place. It,s not just weight that kills speed helps alot. But if the blades fail to open an it,s a well place shot you have more tracking to do. I don,t get the speed you do so I,m sticking with a 2 blade. Nothing wrong with a good test an I,m sure you would be the first to let people know if it failed or worked.


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## 9 point (Apr 23, 2005)

Just stick with your compound or better yet buy a crossbow for your rages. lol


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## voodoofire1 (Jan 24, 2006)

Where's the fun in that?


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## rattus58 (Jul 9, 2007)

voodoofire1 said:


> Where's the fun in that?


 Are you hunting?


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

lol 9 point I have not shot a compound in over 15 years and then I only shot one for a few months and hated it.


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## voodoofire1 (Jan 24, 2006)

rattus58 said:


> Are you hunting?


Yep, sure am, but hunting with a compound or crossbow isn't my Idea of fun anymore, if it were I'd grab one off my wall and do it...........


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## rattus58 (Jul 9, 2007)

voodoofire1 said:


> Yep, sure am, but hunting with a compound or crossbow isn't my Idea of fun anymore, if it were I'd grab one off my wall and do it...........


 I don't use crossbow or compound, but that doesn't mean that I wouldn't... well compound maybe... I'd love to try crossbow hunting instead of my muzzleloaders... I still love the smoke and fire of a sidelock, but hey.... crossbow is still archery and you're still hunting.

Shooting to me is shooting. Hunting to me is hunting. You hunt in order to get to shoot. If you want challenge, then say that you're gonna shoot at nothing more than 25 yards... regardless.... or if you're into challenging shots, nothing less than 350. :grin:

Aloha... :beer:


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## Jimmy Blackmon (Sep 9, 2010)

I've been following this thread for a while and I guess I'm just confused at why. Why do you want to try a controversial point (debatable reliability for opening) when you have points that have worked for you for years now? You seem to have had no problem killing with your setup in the past. You had a doe hide on you last year but you found her the next morning in a brush-pile. I've used two blade points in my 45# selfbows shooting 150 - 160 fps for years and they go right through. I've also used Woodsman 3-blades with light arrows like you use and they went right through whitetails as well. You have good options at hand so I'm just confused at what, other than curiosity, has motivated this desire to use an expandable head.


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## voodoofire1 (Jan 24, 2006)

Ranger B, with me it's just plain curiosity, but that curiosity doesn't mean I would shoot a deer with them just for kicks to see what happens, I'm not like that at all, I don't kill for kicks...ever.....I want proven setups, and then I will test them for myself on an inatimate(sp) object to make darn sure they will perform to my needs, I have shot quite a few deer, and have only lost one since I started bowhunting deer.. and that was with a mechanical head, so for them to pass my tests , they will have to be extremely good....See I will never forget losing a deer that I spent 3 years trying to get, and then placing what seemed to be a perfect 5-6 yard shot on him right in the boiler room and then the 2 1/2 days we spent searching.....see saying I'd like to try them means a whole different thing to me than actually hunting with them......because as we all know, perfect shots at home don't mean squat in the woods.......


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

RangerB - you would have been the last person I would have expected to ask why I am trying something differnet. I am trying them for two reasons. There have been many times that I have not had the greatest blood trails with my two blades, or my woodsmans - even though I had good hits and complete pass throughs and the heads were razor sharp. I helped a friend recover a few deer that he shot (with a compound) and Rage heads and the blood trails were massive. The other reason is that they were given to me for free to try and test. If there is a head out there that consistently produces massive blood trails - that is what will be on the end of my arrow.


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## Jimmy Blackmon (Sep 9, 2010)

You are correct that I am for experimenting but I've just heard a lot of complaints about those heads so that's why I said what I did. I didn't know you had trouble with an blood trails in the past. Must be the cold weather up there - blood congeals quick. LOL


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## trapperDave (Mar 12, 2005)

take out both lungs on a deer with any broadhead and it wont go more than a 100 yds..... not much tracking to do there, blood or not. You dont need a hole the size of a football. lol


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

LOL - a hundreds yards is not much tracking without a blood trail? - you must not hunt in very thick stuff. I hunt in the middle of the Chequamagon National Forest and without a blood trail and a deer going 100 yards the odds are likely less than 50 % for a recovery before the coyote, wolves or bear get it. 90% of my hunting is done in the late afternoon - and most of my deer are shot right before dark - I would like to see you find a deer without a blood trail in the dark that ran 100 yards in thick brush.


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## trapperDave (Mar 12, 2005)

a deer leaves more sign than just blood. 

Maybe its your tracking skills that are questionable.

A simple grid search can find a deer within a hundred yards of you.

Most deer I have shot (and its been a few) have dropped within sight or at very least within hearing. Maybe you should try one of those string trackers ;^)


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## jcs-bowhunter (Jul 7, 2007)

I’ve been watching this thread unfold for a while so I’m going to throw in my 2 cents worth. Personally as a relatively new stickbow hunter with one kill under my belt utilizing a 43# recurve, I would not consider this. 

However, I’m OK with Sharp trying this out given his experience as both a target and bowhunting archer. He stated that he was going to try it out and abandon it if the results were not satisfactory. He is not doing something that the manufacturer says the tackle is not designed for. I understand an amount of reverence for the animals we pursue, but someone has to incorporate new ideas, techniques and hardware for killing and processing chickens, turkeys, pigs and cows for our daily consumption and still keep the process humane. I know my example is not an apple to apple comparison but changing techniques and/or tackle is acceptable to me.

I’d also add that the subjective value of an antlered animal verses a non antlered animal is a personal decision. I’ve been very happy with every doe I’ve ever killed, but it is antlers and shoulder mounts that I have hanging in my den. Since my chances of ever getting as P&Y on Michigan’s public land is so close to zero that I take whatever spot-less deer I get the first crack at. But I still get most excited when I have encounters with decent bucks.

In closing I'll add that I am not a fan of expandables dating back to my experimenting with them back in the late 90s. I was able to get Muzzys and Slick Tricks to fly great from my Hoyt Compounds. However I'm open other's ideas. 

My 2 cents worth…


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

trapper - you have just informed all of the experienced bowhunters in this forum a great deal.

How many of you guys can say that *most* of the deer you have shot have dropped in sight or hearing of you? How many of you are such skilled trackers that at night in the dark you can track a deer that has left no blood trail and has ran 100 yards before dropping? Unless you hunt in an open field - I don't buy it. I hunt in the thickest crap I can find - and I have rarely had a deer drop where I could hear it and ever more rarely had one drop where I could see it.


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## Jimmy Blackmon (Sep 9, 2010)

*honestly*

Honestly, you asked for it. You've walked the type terrain I hunt in here in TN. Last year I shot 2 in VA and 3 in TN and everyone of them died within eyesight of my stand. I watched them die. I was deployed the year before that, but in 2009 I killed 6 with a selfbow and all died within sight but I shot 1 that I did not recover and I suspect he was within 100 - 200 yards but he went into thick cutover and I lost him. Thick stuff makes it very difficult to track in but if you take both lungs they are usually down within 50 yards or less. I used 2 blade magnus and ACE broadheads both seasons and got passthroughs on most all of them. I can only recall tracking over 100 yards about 5 or 6 times in my life.


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

I don't think I have ever tracked over 100 yards - maybe, but I don't think so - but where I hunt it is thick and before the leaves fall - I cannot even see a deer unless it is within bow range - after the leaves fall I can see a bit more -but not much as there are so many pines. The bow ranges that I was on in TN are much more open than the areas up here where I choose to hunt - at least with the bow. This is more of a carniforous forest where it seemed to me that you guys were more oaks and other hardwoods.


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

oh - I should say - I have never tracked over 100 yards and found the animal - there were a few that I lost over the years and never found where I tracked much more than 100 yards


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## whitewolf1 (Jun 28, 2006)

Ranger B said:


> Honestly, you asked for it. You've walked the type terrain I hunt in here in TN. Last year I shot 2 in VA and 3 in TN and everyone of them died within eyesight of my stand. I watched them die. I was deployed the year before that, but in 2009 I killed 6 with a selfbow and all died within sight but I shot 1 that I did not recover and I suspect he was within 100 - 200 yards but he went into thick cutover and I lost him. Thick stuff makes it very difficult to track in but if you take both lungs they are usually down within 50 yards or less. I used 2 blade magnus and ACE broadheads both seasons and got passthroughs on most all of them. I can only recall tracking over 100 yards about 5 or 6 times in my life.


This deer ran 35 yards...









This deer ran about 80...









The top deer was in really open woods and died within sight. The scond one was in some of the thickest crap I have ever hunted in anywhere even though she went down in a small little open spot. The blood trail was a no brainer but considering the amount of crawling to get though the crap I had to do to follow it, without blood it would have been a lost deer, period.

Sharp if the area you hunt is as thick, I would not try a rage head that is unproven for you to produce adequate blood trails and penetration from a stick bow. I would use it first in more open areas where the odds of better tracking conditions exist.


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## rattus58 (Jul 9, 2007)

Snuffers provide huge blood trails when that animal is shot broadside through the lungs/heart/liver...


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

I have not tried Snuffers, but I have used Wenzle woodsman and they did not seem to leave any better or worse of a blood trail than my two blades.


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

I have also never tried a two blade with bleeders - I plan on trying those this year too.


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## arrowslinger22 (Feb 6, 2006)

Work on your woodsman's skills, rather than doing broadhead tests , on live animals for the god's sake. Get a grip.


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

This explains a lot:

http://www.news.cornell.edu/stories/Aug11/ILRCreativityBias.html

arrowslinger - what in the heck do you know of my skills in the woods - you know nothing about me - you think you can know what someone's skills in the woods are by reading a few internet posts - give me a break!

Because I am honest and will tell you that in thick woods in the dark without a blood trail it is nearly impossible to find a down deer - that makes me a bad woodsman to you? And I suppose you can track a deer in the dark with no blood - you go Tarzan - do you do it barefoot and in a loin cloth too?


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## MAC 11700 (Feb 22, 2011)

sharpbroadhead said:


> This explains a lot:
> 
> http://www.news.cornell.edu/stories/Aug11/ILRCreativityBias.html
> 
> ...





> Uncertainty drives the search for and generation of creative ideas, but "uncertainty also makes us less able to recognize creativity, perhaps when we need it most," the researchers wrote. "Revealing the existence and nature of a bias against creativity can help explain why people might reject creative ideas and stifle scientific advancements, even in the face of strong intentions to the contrary. ...


This will depend on your perspective naturally...especially with as much testing each type of head has had..and as many animals that have been shot... but..there is no uncertainty about 2 things...a razor sharp broadhead will cut tissue hide and organs better than a dull one..and...as they are built today... a solid head is less prone to breaking than a mechanical one..If they hold up well enough for you..and you like the result on the deer...then that is all that matters...

No one can say wither you have bad skills at finding the deer you shoot..unless they are there with you..Sometimes depending on where we hunt..the type of vegetation there will determine how easy it is to find the deer we shoot...I have killed a-lot of deer in my life... and going back all the way to 1963 for my first .....I can say I have only lost 2...1 to a bad head ( non-mechanical) and 1 to a bad shot...1 was recovered 3 days later during gun season...1 was not.Both shot under 20 yards too from a 55 lb compound...It is heart wrenching when it happens...I can honestly say that..The furthest a deer ran on me that I double lunged..went over 250 yards into a swamp..and needed a boat to get to him..They just don't always drop within sight...even when you think they should...How far they run is going to depend on the deer......and grid searching doesn't always work when you are in blow downs and swampy areas...heavy conifer forest...rain forest..or honey suckle patches...There are just too many places a deer can crawl into to hide..Grid searching works best for more open areas and in day light..with low vegetation.....There isn't always a ton of blood to follow either..even with a good hit..most of the time yes..but not always...They do make special colored lights that show blood easily..and you can always carry a bottle of peroxide with you too..this helps...but not always...I have shot deer with 2 bladed heads before that didn't always bleed as well as I hoped for..and it made for some long tracking jobs...That's why I use 3 blades now...I've gotten better blood trails with them over any 2 blade I have ever shot..What I have found is a surgical sharp blade will give better blood trails than a jagged edge blade..which is why I say test your tips and blades with a piece of note book paper...If it tears anywhere on it...it ain't sharp enough and will drag..not cut..Going with a light weight rig..we should always strive to have the sharpest heads we can..This gives us better odds...no matter what kind of head we use..I have decided I am going to a even larger COC broadhead..one that is strong..and offers surgical sharp replaceable blades..and easily changed weight system if I want or need it..I was going with the Hell Razor..but..I think this is a better choice since I have options with it..I gotta see if I can tune it to fly well enough..something you won't have to worry about with the Rage..










I wish you well on your hunt with them..and certainly hope they don't disappoint you..and I will look forward to your report on them..

Mac


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## J. Wesbrock (Dec 17, 2003)

sharpbroadhead said:


> trapper - you have just informed all of the experienced bowhunters in this forum a great deal.
> 
> How many of you guys can say that *most* of the deer you have shot have dropped in sight or hearing of you? How many of you are such skilled trackers that at night in the dark you can track a deer that has left no blood trail and has ran 100 yards before dropping? Unless you hunt in an open field - I don't buy it. I hunt in the thickest crap I can find - and I have rarely had a deer drop where I could hear it and ever more rarely had one drop where I could see it.


Is that really unusual? I can either see or hear the vast majority of the deer I kill go down. More times than not, they simply bound once or twice, stop to look around, walk a short distance, and fall over. If they take off on a dead run, especially in thick vegetation, they usually sound like a truck hitting a brush pile when they lose their footing. I've also helped recover more than one deer at night by flashlight with little or no blood,a nd I'm definately not the best tracker in my little hunting group. Truth be known, it's actually easier to track a deer through thick vegetation than open terrain when blood is nonexistant. Honestly, I didn't think this kind of thing was abnormal.


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## red44 (Apr 11, 2005)

My concern would be in weather you can get a passthrough with a fairly light arrow AND an expandable. I'd rather an older snyper over the rage because of the bluntness of the rage behind the tip. But even so, I'd still be concerned with penetration, especially if you hit larger than rib bones on entry. You (and I) would want a passthrough just for increased blood on the ground to trail in heavy cover. Personally, I've never had one drop in sight (I do hunt heavy cover) I have heard a few crashes, but never seen one. I want a blood trail. GL if you try them. For the record, I have gone to the woods with Snypers/recurve, but have'nt shot any with a trad bow with them to offer true testimony. I have with other bows. W other bows shooting real life probably 240-250FPS 400+ weight, snypers never failed to pass through. Again, my concern is the light weight of the arrow + the expandable.


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

I am not the slightest bit concerned with arrow weight


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## red44 (Apr 11, 2005)

Good luck to you, and please report back with the results.


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

next time I make some sausage I am going to save the shoulder bone from the pork butt and shoot the rage through it and see what happens.


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## rattus58 (Jul 9, 2007)

sharpbroadhead said:


> I have not tried Snuffers, but I have used Wenzle woodsman and they did not seem to leave any better or worse of a blood trail than my two blades.


Very similar head to the snuffer.... I can assure you though, that unless you are using an old zwickey Delta, you're gonna be hard pressed to find a cutting diameter overall like the snuffers. Wensel are sleeker than a snuffer and in my opinion might cut smoother with lower poundage bows, but not as big a hole.


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

The snuffer has a 1 1/16" cutting diameter - the Rage has 1 1/2"


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## rattus58 (Jul 9, 2007)

sharpbroadhead said:


> The snuffer has a 1 1/16" cutting diameter - the Rage has 1 1/2"


 Snuffers are closer to 1 3/8's... 1 and 11/32 if I'm not mistaken. The snuffer also has 3 cut on contact blades, as too does the Wensel. The Wensel is a really sleek head compared to the large snuffers.


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

I just went by what the company says about the 100 grain Snuffer SS compared with the 100 grain Rage 40KE.


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## rattus58 (Jul 9, 2007)

sharpbroadhead said:


> I just went by what the company says about the 100 grain Snuffer SS compared with the 100 grain Rage 40KE.


 Don't know anything about the baby snuffers... mine are glue on and either 145 or 165 grains...


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## MAC 11700 (Feb 22, 2011)

Sharp...

What yardages do you normally shoot at whitetail at..? Do you tree stand hunt only..or a combination of different types of stands..? Just curious..that's all..

Also...if you would..could you check the tips on those heads by pushing just the tips through a single piece of paper for me ? I'm curious about how sharp they really are..I've been told some are..and some are what I got on the GR heads..The ones I got from them were duller than snot..

Thanks

Mac


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## Str8 Shooter (Oct 15, 2005)

I'd be interested to see how the Rage holds up to a shoulder bone. I never got a chance to shoot mine into one. 

A couple years ago I did some testing with various broadheads shot into the shoulder and leg bones of a recently harvested deer. The heads were two single blade heads (one was 1 1/8" diameter, the other 1 1/2"), a Snuffer 160 and a Rocket Aerohead 125 gr. expandable with a 1 1/4" cut. The expandable had the chisel type type similar to a Muzzy. I shot into the actual shoulder blade pinned to a target with a 60# recurve and an arrow that was somewhere between 535-575 grs. I just switched the tips out as I shot. The tune was right on the sweet spot with a 160 gr. tip so going up or down 25 grs didn't make much difference. I didn't really have any issues getting through the shoulder blade with any of the tips. Of course, there wasn't any hair or muscle to shoot through but I was mainly interested to see if the shoulder blade would be a problem. The only issue I had was with the expandable. I bent the blade on the first shot through the bone. Not horribly deformed but bent and the edges were dulled significantly. The next thing I did was shoot at the heavier leg bones and joints. I couldn't get a solid hit with the expandable that let me get through the bone. It deflected off every time. The same was true with the Snuffer until I centered just below a joint and wrecked the head. Didn't make it through and bent all the blades. I was surprised that with the big 1.5" single blade I shot clean through the leg bone, through the knee joint and shoulder joint. 

Here's the pics of the results.

































For me, I'll stick with a big two blade. I have confidence in the strength of the heads and a 1.5" head opens a mean hole. 

I understand the desire to shoot a big head although I don't expect it to guarantee a big blood trail. Anyone who's been in the woods enough has seen great hits that produced very little blood. I've had critters hit right through the lungs with entry and exit holes that hardly bled at all. I've shot stuff with two, three and four blade heads and can't say one is much better than another. My best blood trail to date was with a 1" two blade that bled out like crazy. I could've jogged along the trail until I found the deer. The main reason I like big heads is simply because I like a bigger wound channel that will damage more on the way through in case the shot doesn't go as planned.

I do have a question for those of you who have killed some critters with expandables. How do the animals react to the arrow hitting? I know that after a hit with a sharp single blade most stuff I've shot hasn't reacted much, usually a little bound away and look around. Seems most guys I talk with who use expandables seem to comment on the animals running like hell to get away. You certainly see this alot on the TV shows. If that type of broadhead tends to produce that reaction wouldn't it make trailing more difficult, especially if the head doesn't make a big bloodtrail?


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

Well I think in fairness, if the arrows were tuned to the bow with 160 grain tips, there would certianly be some difference in flight with 125 grain tips and that expandables are obviously designed for one shot and then the blades should be replaced - expensive for sure, but that is how they are designed - so your second shot data was flawed on the expandable - the first shot it made it through the bone just like all the others - and there is only one shot that counts with a broadhead.

If there is no major difference in blood trails - i will not shoot the expandable - even if it does work - and the primary reason would be the cost - in fact - I would not be trying them now if they were not given to me for free.


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## MAC 11700 (Feb 22, 2011)

sharpbroadhead said:


> Well I think in fairness, if the arrows were tuned to the bow with 160 grain tips, there would certianly be some difference in flight with 125 grain tips and that expandables are obviously designed for one shot and then the blades should be replaced - expensive for sure, but that is how they are designed - so your second shot data was flawed on the expandable - the first shot it made it through the bone just like all the others - and there is only one shot that counts with a broadhead.
> 
> If there is no major difference in blood trails - i will not shoot the expandable - even if it does work - and the primary reason would be the cost - in fact - I would not be trying them now if they were not given to me for free.


They are pricey...like all of the newer ones..that's for sure..and free is always nice.....lol...lol

How sharp are the tips on them ?

Mac


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

very sharp - oh - I did not get to the mail yesterday - but will this afternoon or tomorrow morning. Was camping this weekend and my dog cut his leg and we did not notice it - so he got blood all over the pop up and every sleeping bag in it. It cost me $58.00 at the laundramat to wash and dry all of our sleeping bags! I spent most of the day between work, the laundramat and cleaning the camper. So depending on how work goes today - I will get to the mail either today or tom.


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

Oh - yardage - most of my deer have been shot between 20 and 25 yards - some closer some further. Most out of a treestand, but I have shot a few while still hunting and some out of a double bull ground blind. I pushed them through a single piece of paper and the blades opened and cut the paper perfectly.


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## casterpollox (Apr 7, 2010)

I'm interested in the results as well. Thanks


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## MAC 11700 (Feb 22, 2011)

sharpbroadhead said:


> very sharp - oh - I did not get to the mail yesterday - but will this afternoon or tomorrow morning. Was camping this weekend and my dog cut his leg and we did not notice it - so he got blood all over the pop up and every sleeping bag in it. It cost me $58.00 at the laundramat to wash and dry all of our sleeping bags! I spent most of the day between work, the laundramat and cleaning the camper. So depending on how work goes today - I will get to the mail either today or tom.


No sweat Bro..I'm not worried about the mags...send them along when you can..

Glad the tips are razor sharp...I think that's going to be a bigger issue than anything else on a lower poundage bow anyhow.....and since your only shooting close..you should be alright on deer with them...not like out at 40-45 yards anyways...or going after Elk and bigger game.I'm not even going to hazard a guess on what kind of blood trail your going to get..even with the best/sharpest heads around it's always a guessing game anyways..

Hope the dog is ok...Vet bills can rack up quick..Believe me..with a Gordon Setter..and a Boxer...I know..

Mac


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

He is fine - just a small cut - but it bled all over my camper. He is a 97lb Doberman that thinks he is a lap dog!


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## Str8 Shooter (Oct 15, 2005)

I should have clarified that I shot at the leg bones with a new head. I bought a couple packs of them on closeout for $5 each. I figured I'd use them for small game. I have to admit they work really well on little critters. I've killed some squirrels with them and they did fine. As far as the testing goes I thought I'd throw them in with the bigger COC heads to see how they fared. I hadn't shot an expandable prior to this out of a recurve and honestly didn't know if they'd get through light bones. Like I said, they did fine on the relatively thin shoulder blade but not so great on the heavier bones. That could've been a product of not having enough energy to utilize the head properly or it could'be been the heads themselves. All in all, it was a fun way to spend a night and opened my eyes to using big two blades. Prior to that I was convinced a big three was the best thing going. 

The tune of the arrows certainly wasn't an issue, btw. With that particular setup I could shoot anything from 125 grs. up to 200 grs. with reasonable accuracy. That's the beauty of carbon arrows. Once you get the arrow length correct it takes a lot of point weight variation to really mess up arrow flight. In the case of this arrow I was tuned great at 160 grs. and going up/down 25 grs. really didn't make much difference.


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

Str8 - have you shot through paper - I think you would find that there is a difference in the tune between 125 grains and 200 grains. I can note a difference between 100 and 125 grains when shooting through paper. Maybe longbows are different - but with any of my recurves - I will get a different tear between a 100 and a 125 - or between a 125 and a 145.


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## Str8 Shooter (Oct 15, 2005)

That was with a recurve that was cut about 3/16" past center. I used to paper tune extensively. Like I said I had a great tune with 160 gr. points. Going up or down 25 grs. would produce a slight tear stiff or limber but nothing that wouldn't recover within 5 yards. I shot the test at 10 yards so I don't believe there would have been any goofy results from an arrow still in the initial paradox phase. My longbows are more particular about tip weight because they aren't cut to center and I have them padded out slightly to tune to the arrows I shoot. With those arrows I can go up or down in tip weight and the arrows fly well but will start to impact left or right at 20 yards compared to my normal tip weight (145 gr.).

These days I don't really papertune or bareshaft much. I tune with minimal fletch until the arrows are flying clean and they impact down my line of sight. Put the broadheads on and finetune. Usually after that I'll throw a bareshaft downrange or through paper just to see how it looks but I don't screw with them to achieve a certain effect. I've had arrows that showed really limber at 20 with a bareshaft that shot absolutely great out to 80 yards with broadheads and I've had arrows show stiff yet flew like a dream and hit dead nuts where I wanted.


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## marc weier (May 26, 2009)

I guess I don't see the point! Mechanical heads are for high speed compounds and shooters that don't take time to tune their bow. For the same price I will stick with my VPA's.


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## MAC 11700 (Feb 22, 2011)

marc weier said:


> I guess I don't see the point! Mechanical heads are for high speed compounds and shooters that don't take time to tune their bow. For the same price I will stick with my VPA's.


That's not a really accurate statement...Many compound shooters and even traditional shooters that use them tune their set ups for what ever head they are using..and I am quite sure if you made this statement on the general thread...you would get a ear full marc..

Mac


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

that is ranking up there with one of the top ten most ignorant statements made on Archery Talk


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## kegan (Aug 28, 2006)

sharpbroadhead said:


> that is ranking up there with one of the top ten most ignorant statements made on Archery Talk


Well now that's not really fair. The truth is mechanicals were DESIGNED so that you could shoot a head that would give you a large cut/hole with minimal tuning. Given many comments made by archers commenting on how they "fly better" it's no suprise that people use them to cover tuning errors, just like using large feathers. 

Sure people like to think they're more attentive than that, but not all of them are.


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

Kegan - Compounds shot with releases today require very little tuning. I have seen guys shoot two different spined arrows out of the same bow through paper with compounds and they both made near perfect tears. 

True - to get a 2" cutting diameter - you would amost require an expandable - because two inch blades would likely cause issues with even the most tuned arrows.

Also - expandable broadheads have been around a lot longer than compounds. 

here is a photo of some from 1956: http://www.realtree.com/hunting/articles-and-how-to/history-broadhead/first-mechanical-broadheads


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## kegan (Aug 28, 2006)

I had thought they were older than compounds but didn't want to say anything in case I was wrong- I never like being a know-it-all who's wrong:lol:. As for the compound requiring less tune, I think that's more a situational thing. I switched from 250 gr. points to 175 gr. points on my arrows and had to only adjust the placement of my string silencers to get good bare shaft flight out of my center-cut hybrid longbow. Center shot makes it easier but traditional or compound you should always pay attention to tune. But then I'm preaching to the choir about that one, aren't I? 

I also didn't mean to say that the mechanical was an evil of the compound group. They were jsut created by manufacturers that wanted a broadhead that would cover up tuning issues but still have a massive cutting diameter. There are enough folks out there getting good flight with two blade heads at high speeds, like with Magnus Stingers, to show that sometimes it's not just the raw arrow speed that is causing flight problems.


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

I think the main difference in tuning is shooting fingers or a release


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## JParanee (Oct 13, 2009)

J. Wesbrock said:


> If you don't trust the head to perform on a "Pope and Young buck," why would you trust it on a doe?


I agree


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

oh here we go again....


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

I have to say that my brother and I get a kick out of these "ethical" hunters who are sooo much above everyone else in their woodsmans skills and ethics - too bad their archery skills don't match their high and mighty talk - just love getting behind these types at a 3D shoot - they almost spend more time looking for arrows than they do preaching how ethical they are, but not quite.


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## J. Wesbrock (Dec 17, 2003)

Is there someone in particular on this thread to whom you're referring?


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## marc weier (May 26, 2009)

sharpbroadhead said:


> that is ranking up there with one of the top ten most ignorant statements made on Archery Talk


Really? Ever try to tune a compound shooting over 320 FPS to shoot a COC broadhead, especially before machined heads like Montec's came out? Talk about ignorant, I would love to see you try to keep up with JRW or Str8 Shooter on the 3D range.


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## Ballgame (Jan 23, 2007)

You should try a Steelhead Phathead and see how it does with your Trad setup. 

That way you have the best of both worlds.


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## hillwilly (May 20, 2011)

J. Wesbrock said:


> Is there someone in particular on this thread to whom you're referring?


Ill take the hit on this one. I used to shoot mecs. Just so I wouldn't have to tune but not lazy just was uneducated. Still shoot them with compound and love em


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## jcs-bowhunter (Jul 7, 2007)

Not all compound shooter who play with mechanicals are doing it for various tuning reasons. When I played with mechanicals several years ago it was based on the realization that when a arrow from a 70# bow is buried 10 inches in the dirt after passing through a deer I am wasting significant KE with a 1-3/16" dia 3 blade Muzzy. I wanted to put a bigger hole in the animal by increasing the cutting diameter to 1-1/2" to 2" diameter. I was chasing a bigger wound channel and better blood trails. One summer in the late 90s I played with 3 different brands and experienced failures with them in target situations so I fell back to my fixed blade heads.


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

jcs-bowhunter said:


> Not all compound shooter who play with mechanicals are doing it for various tuning reasons. When I played with mechanicals several years ago it was based on the realization that when a arrow from a 70# bow is buried 10 inches in the dirt after passing through a deer I am wasting significant KE with a 1-3/16" dia 3 blade Muzzy. I wanted to put a bigger hole in the animal by increasing the cutting diameter to 1-1/2" to 2" diameter. I was chasing a bigger wound channel and better blood trails. One summer in the late 90s I played with 3 different brands and experienced failures with them in target situations so I fell back to my fixed blade heads.


:thumbs_up

Ray :shade:


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## MAC 11700 (Feb 22, 2011)

marc weier said:


> Really? Ever try to tune a compound shooting over 320 FPS to shoot a COC broadhead, especially before machined heads like Montec's came out? Talk about ignorant, I would love to see you try to keep up with JRW or Str8 Shooter on the 3D range.


Actually I have..and it is not that difficult to tune with any of the larger heads as what you are eluding to.._Sure it may be easier for some who don't want to..or don't know how to.._..but that sure as hell isn't every compound shooter around..The point is the person needs to take their time and use the right combination to do it.What I have a problem won your statement is you acting like all compound shooters are this way..when in fact they aren't. So..the ignorance is still yours for the moment I'm afraid...Hopefully that will change..for your sake.

Mac


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

Marc Weier - ummm - I am not sure who JRW is - but I know who Str8 is and he is seems like a great guy and a great shot - at this years IBO World Championships he scored 525 in the Modern Longbow division and took first in his class. I scored 531 in the Recurve division and finished 4th in my class - so I think we are comparable shooters - so you made another ignorant statement - and also the compounds to which I was speaking were in the high 290's up to 323fps.


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## benofthehood (May 18, 2011)

sharpbroadhead said:


> I have to say that my brother and I get a kick out of these "ethical" hunters who are sooo much above everyone else in their woodsmans skills and ethics - too bad their archery skills don't match their high and mighty talk - just love getting behind these types at a 3D shoot - they almost spend more time looking for arrows than they do preaching how ethical they are, but not quite.


Again OSB , as J. Wesbrock asked ... is there someone in this particular thread that you are referring to ? 

It is amazing how a thread about mechanical broadheads can again breed the spilling of IBO results as listed below ... :tongue:

Just go and shoot your mech head at your doe ,despite any misgivings if that is how you roll. When you start the thread suggesting that you are going to commit " heresy " I am pretty sure that you were spoiling for the thread as we have it nowukey:. 

It is not up to anyone hear to force there "ethics" on you , it is your decision and no one else's. I disagree strongly with it , but that is because I do not differentiate between the value of wildlife based on sex nor antler size...and no that does not mean I am commie , tree hugging Peta Member ... But I sometimes think that around here we could do witha bit more tree hugging ... lol. 

However , I do not think that you will find the experiment doesn't work ... I am pretty sure you will kill the deer if the shot presents itself... it is perhaps the mechanicals opening etc that is in question and its capability compared to tried and tested b'heads . 

I ask in all seriousness, Can you not see the reason some here have for concern ... I don't mean that as a usual OSB thread kinda thing ... I ask honestly if you can see why some of us would have reservations about it ? 

Ken, I would ask though , if a young 14 year old hunter came and asked you about the same decision , what advice would you give him ?


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

well benofthehood - since you have difficulty following conversations - 

the reason that IBO results were brought up is because of a comment by Mar Weier stating that he would love to see me "try to keep up with JRW or Str8 Shooter on the 3D range." - He does not have to see it - Str8 and I both shot the same 3D Range two years in a row and score about the same.

regarding my comments about guys who preach ethics but shoot like crap - I am referring to anyone who is like that - since I don't know personally how most of the guys in this thread shoot - it is up to them to be honest with themselves - they know who they are - even if they won't admit it to themselves.

the name of the thread was to illustrate how insanse some guys take this stuff - as if shooting a trad bow was a religion and if you go against their ideas of what is or is not traditional - you are guilty of heresy.

regarding tree hugging - I don't care if you want to hug a tree or not - that's your business.

regarding the rest of your stuff - I have explained that enough - if you disagree - disagree - anyone who reads these posts knows that every chance you have to attempt to make me look bad you take - and will continue to take - no biggie - have at it.


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## benofthehood (May 18, 2011)

sharpbroadhead said:


> well benofthehood - since you have difficulty following conversations -
> 
> the reason that ibo results were brought up is because of a comment by mar weier stating that he would love to see me "try to keep up with jrw or str8 shooter on the 3d range." - he does not have to see it - str8 and i both shot the same 3d range two years in a row and score about the same.
> 
> ...





If you can't see from my last post that 
1. my tongue was in my cheek re IBO comment [ i'd be doing it to if I came 4th in IBO ... as I have stated elsewhere
2. That I am agreeing with you re people forcing their ethics on others ... 

not sure how you took that as any great criticism.


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## MAC 11700 (Feb 22, 2011)

Ya know ....I don't always agree with everything you post OSB.....but on this I do agree ....some traditional shooters do act like you are commiting a crime by going against the grain ...

I guess it is just how you have it worded for some ....others though it's like a religion

Pity it has to come to personal barbs being thrown ....when it's a valid topic for many here ....

I hope it stays on topic ..

Mac


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## benofthehood (May 18, 2011)

slightly off topic ... i agree that there a few who take this stuff way too seriously . It isn't a religion . 

I also stated a few posts ago that I thought that Ken would kill his deer with the set up as described . I think a lot of the questioning comes from whether the heads will open etc . 
I stated I don't agree with the value difference between stags and hinds but that is a difference in opinion in how others see the world to me . It wasn't a judgement. I don't think there is anything particularly careless or wrong in what Ken is doing. I thought I made that clear
To me treestands are odd [ never really seen one in real life ] and baiting is odd ... but each to their own ... much the same as some people don't like my plaid flannel shirts lol .
and Expandables ... It ain't my cup of tea equipment wise ... had a few stuff ups with my old set ups using them . 2 failures to be precise.

Re my "Heresy" comment ... OSB has never been backward in coming forward and I think intended to bring the "trad police" out the woodwork with this topic . Good for him and it never hurts once in a while to ruffle feathers ... as long as I don't make comments that agree with him ...:wink:


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

you have never seen a treestand?

baiting? - this sums up baiting:



:wink:


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## benofthehood (May 18, 2011)

Treestands are pretty rare to my knowledge in Australia and I don't think I have seen a real one close up. and as such , when I referred to baiting I meant the timed stands that deliver corn at a pre determined time etc. Never even heard of anything like that here . But Its still probably a great way to procure game , judge head/rack size etc and as such a good management tool.
Its just a very different way of hunting to us here in Oz as far as Im aware . But I accept that to some it is akin too sitting aside a cornfield or African waterhole. 

Each to their own. I'd probably hunt that way to when in those locations ..... when in Rome etc etc


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## MAC 11700 (Feb 22, 2011)

sharpbroadhead said:


> View attachment 1153069
> you have never seen a treestand?
> 
> baiting? - this sums up baiting:
> ...


Don't forget this type too...










Like I said...we don't always agree...but..:wink:

Mac


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## benofthehood (May 18, 2011)

Mac is that like a salt lick ?


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## MAC 11700 (Feb 22, 2011)

benofthehood said:


> Mac is that like a salt lick ?



As advertised...



> _Trophy Rock is a 100% all natural trace mineral rock mined from an ancient mineral deposit in the Rocky Mountains. Trophy Rock is used for attracting all big game animals like Whitetail Deer, Mule Deer, Elk, Moose and Antelope. Trophy Rock contains over 50 trace minerals beneficial to antler growth and overall herd health. Big game animals find it irresistible_


Mac


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## MAC 11700 (Feb 22, 2011)

To me..not to stray too far from the topic...hunting over bait is up to the individual to decide on..._but only when legal_...In some places and in some type of hunting it is legal..in others...it's not.

Mac


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## Str8 Shooter (Oct 15, 2005)

I'm fairly certain Ken and I would give each other a good run on the range. I know he's a top level shooter and I'd have a good time having a friendly competition. That's all it really is anyways for me. :wink:

Regarding the broadheads for hunting I should have clarified my position. I'm not the type to pass on something because it hasn't been done. I used to manage an archery shop and had access to a whole lot of equipment. I've tested out a bunch of different arrows, heads, bows, you name it. I also listen to people who have far more experience than I do, question, and integrate the information. My opinions come from that and they're just that, my opinions. I've shot critters with a variety of arrow weights from my tradtional bows (360 grs. to over 600 grs.) and different heads. The only reason I bring that up is because over the past few years, as I get more hunting experience in, I realize that bowhunting is more about making sure you have a setup that will adequately perform when things go bad. Now, I can kill 3D's with the best of the best but I realize that animals aren't 3D targets. I've taken shots that were perfect at the time but resulted in poor hits because of animals moving, or deflections from unseen branches, and other reasons. I know that despite my best efforts a shot at an animal won't always happen the way I would like. 

The way I see it if your elevation is correct and your shot is off on the windage you're going to run into one of two situations. You either hit some bones in the shoulder/leg area or you go too far back and shoot through the paunch. In the first scenario you want a setup that can take the impact and hopefully go deep enough to penetrate into the vitals and kill the animal quickly. In the second you want a head that will do enough damage, again, to put the animal down quickly and leave enough sign to help with recovery. In my mind, I don't see the head in question being able to to cover both situations with the relatively low energy levels a traditional setup produces. As I stated in another post, that is why I prefer a big, sturdy COC broadhead. 

And, I have to agree to a point with the Marc's comment on expandables. I've worked with a ton of bowhunters (mainly compound) when I was working at the archery shop. Your average guy wants to buy a bow, some arrows and expects to drill quarters all day long. Most guys don't really have a clue when it comes to basic tuning or understand matching arrows to the bow. I can't tell you how many times I've heard how such and such broadheads are junk cuz' they fly bad when in reality it is a poorly tuned setup that is the cause. Of course, this doesn't apply to all modern bowhunters. There are a lot of really dedicated, educated compound shooters out there who are as particular as anyone with tuning and equipment.


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## benofthehood (May 18, 2011)

Mac...thanks for the clarification. I assumed the animals come up and eat it / lick it.


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## benofthehood (May 18, 2011)

Mac...thanks for the clarification. I assumed the animals come up and eat it / lick it.


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## MAC 11700 (Feb 22, 2011)

benofthehood said:


> Mac...thanks for the clarification. I assumed the animals come up and eat it / lick it.


They do...and all will also paw the ground for sometime after it is gone..much like any other " mineral rock"....

Mac


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## trapperDave (Mar 12, 2005)

salt is the main ingredient of those rocks. Its what attracts the deer and gets them to eat/lick it and the dirt. Without it, they have little attraction to the minerals alone.


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

Str8 - I agree 100% that most compound shooters are looking for an easy way and don't know much about tuning, etc... - my only comment was that the modern compounds when shot with releases are very tolerant when it comes to tuning and many times you can actually get away with shooting two differnet spined arrows and both will fly fine.

The trophy rock really appears to work - a friend of mine put those out last year at his stands and man did he get some nice pics of bucks - but it only seems to work in the early season - he shot a nice 10 pointer over one of them. I went to buy one for this season and everyone is out!


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## marc weier (May 26, 2009)

sharpbroadhead said:


> too bad their archery skills don't match their high and mighty talk - just love getting behind these types at a 3D shoot - they almost spend more time looking for arrows than they do preaching how ethical they are, but not quite.


This is YOUR statement that made me bring up Jason and Chris. See some of us don't go looking for arrows all over the place and we don't start stupid threads just to start fights like you do. I don't have time for you though, time to pack my truck and head west to hunt elk with my VPA's that I KNOW will get the job done and not experiment on an animal!!!


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

wow - more ridiculous with every post Marc - quit while you are behind - where in MY statement did I say Jason or Chris? Where did Chris talk ethics? My comments were not directed toward Chris or anyone in particular in this thread - it was a general comment and I don't know who Jason even is.


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## swinestalker (Oct 28, 2009)

sharpbroadhead said:


> I can tell you what bow and arrows - Trad Tech Pinnacle Riser with Extreme BF Limbs just over 47lbs at my 29.75" draw. Carbon Tech Cheetah arrows 355 grains total arrow weight (these are a tad heavier than the ones I did my penetration testing with they were 349 grains - i started using a nock adapter and left these a tad longer)
> 
> These go 209 fps - the FOC is just under 12% (easton recommends between 10-15% for hunting)


 I will stay out of the rage debate because I have never used them and cannot give an opinion based on personal experience. The total arrow weight does concern me, that is only 7.5 grains per pound of draw weight. Most traditional bowyers I know greatly discourage the use of less than 8gpi. I have never had a Trad Tech and maybe they are built to take that much excess energy. They better be at 7.5 gpi!


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## kegan (Aug 28, 2006)

swinestalker said:


> I will stay out of the rage debate because I have never used them and cannot give an opinion based on personal experience. The total arrow weight does concern me, that is only 7.5 grains per pound of draw weight. Most traditional bowyers I know greatly discourage the use of less than 8gpi. I have never had a Trad Tech and maybe they are built to take that much excess energy. They better be at 7.5 gpi!


Most well designed bows will tolerate as low as 7 gpp. I know the hybrid longbows I build will handle arrows that light and they're designed to throw a heavy arrow fast. Lighter arrows come out sizzling like lightning bolts, but so far no issues with damage. I've been told ILF rigs can go as low as 6 gpp but are happier at 7 and above?


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

Kegan is right on - though I think with my Tradtech I can go as low as 5 grains per pound without voiding the warrenty - I would have to double check the manual.


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## grantmac (May 31, 2007)

kegan said:


> Most well designed bows will tolerate as low as 7 gpp. I know the hybrid longbows I build will handle arrows that light and they're designed to throw a heavy arrow fast. Lighter arrows come out sizzling like lightning bolts, but so far no issues with damage. I've been told ILF rigs can go as low as 6 gpp but are happier at 7 and above?


ILF set-ups should hold together at 6gpp provided they aren't really heavy draw weight or exceptionally long draw length. I know of one guy playing around with some Border Hex5w limbs shooting 6.5gpp and he was chronoing just above 230fps. Thats pretty darn quick!

-Grant


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## swinestalker (Oct 28, 2009)

I stand corrected, some of the newer bows will handle much lighter arrows than 8gpi. I still don't see the advantage of a less efficient arrow for hunting however. You will have to forgive me, as I am a dinosaur.


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

They are not less efficient when it comes to penetration - but that is a whole different topic - and the advantage is that a lighter flatter shooting arrow is more forgiving of judements in distance when shooting at unknown distances - whether aiming at a conscious level (gap or stringwalking) or aiming at a subconscious level (instinctive) - you will shoot a faster flatter arrow more accurately (all else being equal) than a slower heavier arrow at unknown distances.


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## Str8 Shooter (Oct 15, 2005)

An ILF rig should be fine shooting down to 6 gpp. I know some say you can go to 5 gpp. but it does put more stress on the whole system. I've shot ILF equipment for the last 5-6 years and never had any issues down around 6 gpp. One of my favorite setups was a set of heavy Samick Extreme limbs on an Excel riser. That bow was about 64# and it shot 415 gr. arrows downrange at around 225 fps. 

Ken, I don't necessarily believe compound shooters are looking for an easy way. It's simply that the equipment allows someone to shoot less frequently while maintaining very good accuracy. I think one reason many people aren't very good at tuning is due to the level of technology with the bows and accessories. The newer bows and accessories have a lot of adjustment compared to equipment from 10-15 years ago. It's kinda like working on an older car vs. a new model. Lots of folks would rather bring thier bow in to have a qualified tech work on it than risk attempting it themselves and potentially damaging a costly piece of equipment.

And, yes a compound can be forgiving of different arrows but that's all part of tuning. I can tune a variety of different spined arrows to work from one bow by compensating with arrow length and tip weight but in the end it comes down to what a shooter wants. Light arrrow, heavy arrow, etc... The one thing a compound isn't very tolerant of is torque. Many of the high letoff models are extremely easy to influence with hand torque or crummy release technique. A bow tuned to shoot a bullet hole can easily be made to tear 2-3" in either direction with a small amount of hand torque. A recurve or longbow, by comparison, is much harder to influence in that way.


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## MAC 11700 (Feb 22, 2011)

sharpbroadhead said:


> They are not less efficient when it comes to penetration - but that is a whole different topic - and the advantage is that a lighter flatter shooting arrow is more forgiving of judements in distance when shooting at unknown distances - whether aiming at a conscious level (gap or stringwalking) or aiming at a subconscious level (instinctive) - you will shoot a faster flatter arrow more accurately (all else being equal) than a slower heavier arrow at unknown distances.


I think there are some clarifications needed to this rule OSB...1 is just how much faster are we talking about...and 2..how much heavier is there in arrow weight... and 3...in what velocity of wind...and 4...the distance the person is shooting...:wink: and 5...the efficiency of that particular bow...

If you are strictly talking 50-80 fps difference..100-150 grain weight difference..no wind..and a bow designed to shoot light weight arrows...well then you are correct...but...with a 35-50 yard shot with a 40-50 grain difference..and having just 30-50 fps difference..along with a 10 mph and up wind velocity..and a bow designed to shoot heavier arrows efficiently...the heavier arrow is going to win out..

I have been told that those FOB's negates all of the advantages though,since it steers it well in any kind of wind.....but those you can't shoot off a shelf..or a normal recurve rest..

Not everyone shoots light weight target rigs..my self for one..and I can honestly say..with the later situation...I can shoot my heavier 2315's much more accurately at 30-50 yards than I can my lighter 5575 GT Traditionals...both tuned well btw... way less wind drift..25 yards and in...it's a wash for me...15 yards and in...the GT's win out..Even when I was shooting a Alpha Burner...the heavier arrows always did better in a moderate to stiff breeze...

Maybe I am just different...but that's how it works for me on it..but I guess that's why guys who shoot close shoots prefer them over heavier ones..

Mac


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## grantmac (May 31, 2007)

MAC 11700 said:


> I think there are some clarifications needed to this rule OSB...1 is just how much faster are we talking about...and 2..how much heavier is there in arrow weight... and 3...in what velocity of wind...and 4...the distance the person is shooting...:wink: and 5...the efficiency of that particular bow...
> 
> If you are strictly talking 50-80 fps difference..100-150 grain weight difference..no wind..and a bow designed to shoot light weight arrows...well then you are correct...but...with a 35-50 yard shot with a 40-50 grain difference..and having just 30-50 fps difference..along with a 10 mph and up wind velocity..and a bow designed to shoot heavier arrows efficiently...the heavier arrow is going to win out..
> 
> ...


Heavy arrows retain more speed, as in they decelerate at a slower rate. This is with similar diameters, FOC, points and fletching of course.
Most bows generally perform more efficiently with heavier GPP arrows (8-10), as evidenced by less need for silencing (which also reduces speed).

The interesting thing about the ballistics of heavy arrows vs. lighter is that their initial trajectory will be a steeper parabola (due to the reduced initial speed), but the back-half will be relatively flatter (due to increased ballistic coefficient). Keep in mind I'm not suggesting that they will impact higher than a lighter, faster arrow.
The actual downrange difference may be less than you think, and for some people the mental computations to deliver a slower arrow may be easier due to familiarity. Plus for many having a closer point-on makes things easier to judge.

One thing is certain, a heavy arrow will most definitely deliver a greater percentage of its initial energy once its traveled a significant distance down range. It may also be a higher FOC set-up which will require less fletching to stabilize, taking a further increase in ballistic efficiency.

-Grant


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

odd thing is the heavy arrow guys all seem to shoot at less than 20 yards - perhaps because


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## J. Wesbrock (Dec 17, 2003)

This is an interesting thread. So far I've learned that people who discuss ethics can't hit 3D targets, and those who use heavy arrows (however that's defined) don't shoot past 20 yards. I'm guessing there was a clearance sale on hyperbole and ridiculous assumptions recently in northern Wisconsin.


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

ohhhhh - are you the JRW that Marc is refering too that is supposed to be a much superior shot to me - one that he would like to see me keep up with on the 3D range?


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## J. Wesbrock (Dec 17, 2003)

Am I the one you seem to think spends most of my time on 3d courses digging my arrows out of the dirt? 

For the record, whatever Marc posted is between you and him, although I know Marc and have a lot of respect for him. I don't call shooters out, but I'm not the least bit impressed or intimidated by people with an incessant need to convince others of their shooting prowess. That's bush league.


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

1. I never said you were on 3D courses digging arrows out of the dirt

2. I don't have an incessant need to convice others of my shooting abilities (my scores are there for anyone to see) -the only reason that it came up is because you pal Marc, whom you respect much, called me out - that is bush league.


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## whitewolf1 (Jun 28, 2006)

I have no idea how well Jason shoots on a 3d course but guys like him, Denny and a whole bunch of other guys I could list off, have a big wake of dead critters behind them that lend their opions to a high degree of credibility when the discussion turns to makin stuff dead. 

They arent talking about killin phone books or talking about what they think will work or they hope will work, they talk about what will no doubt get it done. It's just my opinion but you would have been better served to have not mentioned shooting the rage head until you had done so either successfully or not and then explained what happened in either case.


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## grantmac (May 31, 2007)

sharpbroadhead said:


> odd thing is the heavy arrow guys all seem to shoot at less than 20 yards - perhaps because


My 8gpp arrows shoot very nicely out to 80yds thank you very much. Of course my 10gpp hunting arrows are generally shot under 30yds for practice and definitely under 20yds for hunting. The brush is too thick for much beyond 20yds here anyway, shots further than that just make for a more difficult trail to pick-up.

-Grant


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## J. Wesbrock (Dec 17, 2003)

sharpbroadhead said:


> 1. I never said you were on 3D courses digging arrows out of the dirt
> 
> 2. I don't have an incessant need to convice others of my shooting abilities (my scores are there for anyone to see) -the only reason that it came up is because you pal Marc, whom you respect much, called me out - that is bush league.


Actually, his comment was a response to you calling out people who discuss ethics as being lousy 3D shooters, which ironically happened right after someone reposted a quote of mine . So I'll ask you again, fully knowing you won't give a direct answer, to whom on this thread were you referring with that statement. Or was it just more nonsense that had absolutely nothing to do with anyone in this actual discussion?


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

Here is my exact quote:

"I have to say that my brother and I get a kick out of these "ethical" hunters who are sooo much above everyone else in their woodsmans skills and ethics - too bad their archery skills don't match their high and mighty talk - just love getting behind these types at a 3D shoot - they almost spend more time looking for arrows than they do preaching how ethical they are, but not quite."


Is my brother in this forum? Is this forum a 3D range? Am I behind anyone from this thread on a 3D course? 

1. the comment was about people _*preaching how ethical THEY are*_ and who are_* "sooo much above everyone else in their woodsmans skills and ethics"*_

2. The comment was not about people _DISCUSSING_ ethics.

3. The discussion of ethics reminded me of people who _PREACH_ ethics


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## MAC 11700 (Feb 22, 2011)

sharpbroadhead said:


> odd thing is the heavy arrow guys all seem to shoot at less than 20 yards - perhaps because


I guess it's cause of where a lot of them hunt they have closer shots than me...Where I like to hunt..and also how I hunt allow me more open longer shots..I guess this is good to some..and bad to others...but...I really like it..I like to be able to see my game from a distance..then stalk within range if possible..I may not have as many dead critters as someone who has their own private piece of land and tree stands scattered all around it...( I'm not that fortunate... )..so that's why I've learned to hunt and shoot as I have..

Mac


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## J. Wesbrock (Dec 17, 2003)

OSB,

So people here discuss ethics, you respond by castigating people who discuss ethics as lousey shooters who end up looking for lost arrows on 3D courses, and you expect us to believe you weren't trying to insult anyone here? If you say so... :der:


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

wow Wesbrock - you are an expert with words and twisting them - you keep interchanging "preaching" and "discussing"


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## J. Wesbrock (Dec 17, 2003)

If you say so, Ken. :crazy:


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## rattus58 (Jul 9, 2007)

sharpbroadhead said:


> odd thing is the heavy arrow guys all seem to shoot at less than 20 yards - perhaps because


Perhaps cuz what?


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

rattus - i guess I didn't finish that sentence - perhaps because the further you shot the more effect the differences in tajectory have - in other words if you misjudge distance by a few yards on a closer shot it does not matter as much - but the further out the more effect it has.


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## trapperDave (Mar 12, 2005)

but the stuff you hunt in is so thick you cant see past ten yards, or hear past twenty. .... so what do you care about "further out"? lol


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

ah - because I shoot competition too and want to be the best shooter I can at any distance


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## rattus58 (Jul 9, 2007)

sharpbroadhead said:


> ah - because I shoot competition too and want to be the best shooter I can at any distance


Then what's the point of your statement? And for the record, trajectory has nothing at all to do with accuracy.


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

Trajectory has nothing to do with accuracy?

if you are shooting known distances it doesn't - but if you are shooting at unknown distances it has a great deal to do with accuracy.

This is getting silly now


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## rattus58 (Jul 9, 2007)

sharpbroadhead said:


> Trajectory has nothing to do with accuracy?
> 
> if you are shooting known distances it doesn't - but if you are shooting at unknown distances it has a great deal to do with accuracy.
> 
> This is getting silly now


 I agree.... some of your comments and self professed academics really are puzzling. And back to your comment of unknown distances, what do you consider accuracy to be?


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

what do I consider accuracy to be? - "self proclaimed academics" - "puzzling" - this is beyond silly


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## rattus58 (Jul 9, 2007)

sharpbroadhead said:


> what do I consider accuracy to be? - "self proclaimed academics" - "puzzling" - this is beyond silly


 And that is exactly the response I expected.


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## grantmac (May 31, 2007)

I actually slowed my bow down and gained some substantial accuracy at longer ranges. The lighter arrows (<250gr) just didn't hold the line as well as 300gn ones did.

-Grant


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

less than 250 grains - hmmm - I could not even make an arrow that light if I wanted too that would be the correct spine for my 48lb bow


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## grantmac (May 31, 2007)

810 spine, 28.5", 60gr glue-ins and 2.5" vanes. Very fast, not a hunting arrow whatsoever. Also somewhat fickle and less accurate at the longer distances; actually 240gr, 7.3gpp and 9% FOC according to my notes.
New ones are 600 spine, 30.25", 110gr total point, 1.75" vanes. Moderately fast, 15% FOC. Very forgiving and around 9.5GPP. I'm hoping to drop 9gr from the nock-end and 20 from the point in the next little while. 
But thats talking about accuracy, not really about a hunting set-up. These are very specifically 3D arrows.

Depending on your draw length you could build a set under 300gr for your bow with broadheads. They would have a terrible FOC and be extremely touchy though. Any form or environmental interference would be immediately noticeable.

-Grant


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

.810 spine - what are you shooting a 20lb bow?


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## djmbow (Jul 26, 2006)

OSB,

I for one, would be very interested in the results of your field tests with the < 40 lbs. KE Rage broadheads.

I have used the Rocky Mountain Snyper (predecessor to the Rage) for years with my compound and found this particular cam action mechanical broadhead to be very effective in producing huge wound channels and copious blood trails.

For example, here is a picture of the *entrance wound *on a spike that was shot with a 100g Snyper:















I realize that you will be shooting the Rages out of a recurve rather than a compound and there may be some question as to whether there is a sufficent amount of KE present to not only allow the blades of the Rage to open properly, but to also ensure that once they do adequate penetration is achieved.

Therefore, I would like to suggest that you simply shoot the Rages with their blades fully deployed.

I've experimented with this technique on our broadhead range and found that there is little, if any, loss in accuracy if the Rage blades are left open or snapped under the O ring.

(In fact, I have also shot two deer with blades that opened accidently on my Snypers and I was unable to detect any loss in performance).

With the blades open on the Rages, you would get all the benefits of the cam action design without any loss in KE.

In any case, I wish you luck with your field tests and will be eagerly awaiting your report.


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## grantmac (May 31, 2007)

33# on the fingers at my 28.5" draw. The bareshafts would hit with the fletched to 60m provided I executed the shot perfectly, made 70m no problems shooting split and a medium-high anchor.
I was actually considering some 28", 900 spine with 50gr glue-ins but the point-on distance became unmanageably far.

-Grant


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

WOW djm - that is what I am looking for -


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## MAC 11700 (Feb 22, 2011)

sharpbroadhead said:


> WOW djm - that is what I am looking for -


I have a question for you...

Are you just looking for the best blood trail from a head..? Is all of this the only reason you are going to use the rage heads..? 

Mac


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

Hey Mac - I just got around to sending you the TBM's - I sent you about 15 issues I think - I just grabbed a stack - Post Office said you should get them on Wednesday.

I am trying them because a friend asked me too and sent me them for free. The only advantage that I can see to them is that they are supposed to create a massive blood trail - and if they do - then I will be happy.


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## MAC 11700 (Feb 22, 2011)

sharpbroadhead said:


> Hey Mac - I just got around to sending you the TBM's - I sent you about 15 issues I think - I just grabbed a stack - Post Office said you should get them on Wednesday.
> 
> I am trying them because a friend asked me too and sent me them for free. The only advantage that I can see to them is that they are supposed to create a massive blood trail - and if they do - then I will be happy.


Thanks Bro...I'll let you know what I think after reading them...

So..you are only concerned about the blood trails...ok...let me give you my take on it then..

If you leave them open..as what has been said..then you are losing the tuning advantage..as you well know I think..

If you leave them closed..you are faced with a couple potential circumstances..both which have been documented by many people posting about them (if you can believe them...)

You weren't happy with what you were getting before...I think I read here..correct me if I am wrong ...


So...other than they were free...why not go with a better head ( still COC non-mechanical)..than what you were using...something with a full 3 to 1 cutting ratio..and get them scalpel sharp ?...Not just shaving hair sharp..but really scalpel sharp...? They do have good heads that is 3 to 1...and it is possible to get them this sharp...

It took me a while...but I finally found the 1 test I wanted you to see...Go here...http://wibowhunters.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=broadheads&action=print&thread=588

It's not scientific..and hide and bone wasn't used..but..has some interesting results in it..you might ( or might not ) like what the OP says..depending on your frame of mind at the time..but..it is interesting..

Mac


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## bilbowbone (Jan 15, 2011)

This whole ethical hunting BS is killing me! If anyone here was really THAT concerned with hunting in a manner that was the absolutely the surest way to make a quick clean kill you wouldn't even be using a bow!


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## BLACK WOLF (Aug 26, 2005)

bilbowbone said:


> This whole ethical hunting BS is killing me! If anyone here was really THAT concerned with hunting in a manner that was the absolutely the surest way to make a quick clean kill you wouldn't even be using a bow!


I AM concerned and in my experience....a bow and arrow is the less traumatic way to kill a wild animal...when compared to how a gun kills. Neither is pleasant...but I've seen animals hit with an arrow act like they got stung by a bee and go back to feeding before they colapse.

The only other way that my be 'more humane' or less traumatic is a bullet to the head, which is less realistic in most hunting situations....so I'll still choose a bow and arrow over a gun.

Ray :shade:


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## MAC 11700 (Feb 22, 2011)

bilbowbone said:


> This whole ethical hunting BS is killing me! If anyone here was really THAT concerned with hunting in a manner that was the absolutely the surest way to make a quick clean kill you wouldn't even be using a bow!


WoW...I can think of a thousands things to say about your statement...but what would be the point since you think ethics is all BS anyway....

Mac


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## MAC 11700 (Feb 22, 2011)

I got to ask though....you don't really think it's all BS do you...or is it just all the arguments about the subject...

Mac


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## rattus58 (Jul 9, 2007)

MAC 11700 said:


> I got to ask though....you don't really think it's all BS do you...or is it just all the arguments about the subject...
> 
> Mac


 Question, why is not turning a pack of wolves, or descendants, loose on a deer not ethical? Indians used to drive deer off a cliff or into the water.... Ethical? Leghold traps... ethical? Poison darts and arrows... ethical? Shooting an Erkel on the ground with a single shot muzzleloader ... Ethical? 

The question of ethics is only a question for the "other guys" actually and I think that we all know this. Ethics isn't a question of legal, until you break the law... then you, or I anyway, ask myself is this an ethics question or not? And to me, it's not. It's a question of legality. Ethics is the manner of legal conduct in my opinion.

Humane. This always made me laugh. Any killing of any animal in the eyes of the animal is inhumane, I've got it on good authority. The advantage of animalhood, is they don't have someone constantly telling them its not fair. You are dinner or you're not. Me the hunter looks at it as, you're either my dinner or someone elses. Now this may trigger a fairness debate within some of us... and that to me is your ethics... and I also wonder if your hunger for the game you're hunting matters. Shooting a moose in the water, deer etc... may be (I don't know this) legal but is it ethical? If it is not ethical, why not? A friend of mine wrote the book, beyond fair chase. This is a treatise on HIS OPINION OF ETHICS. I support this book, but I've had debate with him and others on the question of ethics.

*what is this thread about again???*

Anyway I'll close.... Ethics is something I love to debate because most, or many, disagree with me.... but in MY OPINION... ethics is personal. Ethics is driven by circumstances... IN MY OPINION. Ethics is not LAW. Ethics is in my opinion you manner of legal conduct.

Aloha... :beer:.... not sure what prompted me even to post this... but now its out there... :grin:


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## bilbowbone (Jan 15, 2011)

I am just razzin' you guys about arguing over such little details. I feel that doing what you can to be an ethical hunter is paramount. But don't you think the quality of the shot is far more important as long as you are using equipment that was designed for the purpose by manufacturers that probably wouldn't be in the business if they didn't vend functional equipment?


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## rattus58 (Jul 9, 2007)

bilbowbone said:


> I am just razzin' you guys about arguing over such little details. I feel that doing what you can to be an ethical hunter is paramount. But don't you think the quality of the shot is far more important as long as you are using equipment that was designed for the purpose by manufacturers that probably wouldn't be in the business if they didn't vend functional equipment?


Taking warf bows and such into consideration of your comment, I'd venture to say that the shot is everything to killing regardless of the manufacturing questions/issue. 

Aloha... :beer:


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## voodoofire1 (Jan 24, 2006)

Well I have a small ethics question since ethics has been brought up....Why is it that Turkeys are not shot on the fly?....Pheasants, quail, doves, ducks,geese, and many other birds are shot on the fly, but a 20 or 30# tukey that looks like a school bus flying through the air, is only shot on the ground....why?.... is it viewed as unsportsman like?, or just an unwritten rule?.......


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## bilbowbone (Jan 15, 2011)

Voodoofire1. I have often thought the same exact thing!


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## rattus58 (Jul 9, 2007)

voodoofire1 said:


> Well I have a small ethics question since ethics has been brought up....Why is it that Turkeys are not shot on the fly?....Pheasants, quail, doves, ducks,geese, and many other birds are shot on the fly, but a 20 or 30# tukey that looks like a school bus flying through the air, is only shot on the ground....why?.... is it viewed as unsportsman like?, or just an unwritten rule?.......


 I've shot turkeys on the fly, I've shot turkeys on the ground... heck I erred once and shot a turkey in a tree with a blunt. Hunters here shoot turkeys how ever they see them... in texas, you can shoot them with high power... like a pig... I'm told... 

The ethical question is an Erkel, quail, partridge shot on the ground ethical.... :grin:... cuz that is where I shoot em if I see them..... Of course on the other hand, I'm not in it for my dog.. he's back at the fireplace getting treats from the missuse whilst I get dinner... I don't hunt with a multishot firearm either... I hunt with a muzzleloader.... so my follow up is minutes away..... or less... but... I get flamed for this all the time as being unsportsmanlike... and I'd like to know... "really?"


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## Van/TX (Jul 20, 2008)

Voodoo makes a good point. In fact when I hear hunting folks that are concerned with the pain and sufferring that animals go thru when we kill them with our choice of weapon, I sometimes think that maybe these folks should not be hunting at all for their own sanity. And the "respect for the animal" phrase really get's old to me. If you respect the animal then why kill them in the first place? A camera is an alternative ya know. I may get to that point in my life one day but as of now I still like "I smoked him". Food for thought. Getting old and re-thinking things:beer: Have fun...Van


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## rattus58 (Jul 9, 2007)

Van/TX said:


> Voodoo makes a good point. In fact when I hear hunting folks that are concerned with the pain and sufferring that animals go thru when we kill them with our choice of weapon, I sometimes think that maybe these folks should not be hunting at all for their own sanity. And the "respect for the animal" phrase really get's old to me. If you respect the animal then why kill them in the first place? A camera is an alternative ya know. I may get to that point in my life one day but as of now I still like "I smoked him". Food for thought. Getting old and re-thinking things:beer: Have fun...Van


I'm not sure I follow you. What context are you referring to when you say hunters "concerned with the pain and suffering animals go thru when we kill them with our choice of weapon,"?

Follow that up with, what choice of weapon would they prefer we kill them with?


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## Van/TX (Jul 20, 2008)

rattus58 said:


> I'm not sure I follow you. What context are you referring to when you say hunters "concerned with the pain and suffering animals go thru when we kill them with our choice of weapon,"?
> 
> Follow that up with, what choice of weapon would they prefer we kill them with?


Doesn't matter what the weapon of choice is. The animal is dead and that's the bottom line. I don't believe the animal has a preference one way or the other with what or how they are killed. I could be wrong. It's just a gut feeling...Van


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## rattus58 (Jul 9, 2007)

Van/TX said:


> Doesn't matter what the weapon of choice is. The animal is dead and that's the bottom line. I don't believe the animal has a preference one way or the other with what or how they are killed. I could be wrong. It's just a gut feeling...Van


 I was thinking the same thing... but you got me thinking even more, unfortunately about this and I posted another thread on the subject... :grin:


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## Van/TX (Jul 20, 2008)

rattus58 said:


> I was thinking the same thing... but you got me thinking even more, unfortunately about this and I posted another thread on the subject... :grin:


I try not to think sometimes. It gets me in trouble :BangHead: ...Van


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## rattus58 (Jul 9, 2007)

Van/TX said:


> I try not to think sometimes. It gets me in trouble :BangHead: ...Van


 Hehe... well me missuse says I acquit myself well in that activity... or lack thereof... :grin:


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## lostarrow68 (Jun 29, 2004)

Is mechanical the new Traditional? Why would you want to take something that was once pure and defile it? Why are you shooting Traditional gear at all? Buy yourself a compound and shoot your new "Magic" broadhead.


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

lost arrow - i dunno maybe because I don't believe archery and hunting is a religion and I don't think that one type of broadhead is pure and another is defiled or "magic" - it is an arrow point that cuts and kills deer.


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## lostarrow68 (Jun 29, 2004)

That is why it's called "Traditional" archery and not "Evolving" archery. It is about passing down tradition, teaching others how to make their own arrows, bow strings and bows.
It is being lost little by little by people who think, hey this is kinda cool, but not cool enough to keep with tradition. If you have no respect for tradition, why would anyone expect you to have respect for the animals you choose to kill for your sport. To some of us it was handed down from our fathers and we intend to pass it on almost as a religion. It is more than cutting and killing, it's about time spent in the woods, memories with friends, respect for the animals you take and keeping tradition alive. A little bit of knowledge goes a long way. Good luck on your murderess rampage.


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## voodoofire1 (Jan 24, 2006)

Ya reckon the native americans had a fight like this when one of them made a new head from steel?


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## lostarrow68 (Jun 29, 2004)

The Native Americans did not make arrowheads from steel. Flint, obsidian or bone.


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## sawtoothscream (Apr 19, 2008)

lostarrow68 said:


> That is why it's called "Traditional" archery and not "Evolving" archery. It is about passing down tradition, teaching others how to make their own arrows, bow strings and bows.
> It is being lost little by little by people who think, hey this is kinda cool, but not cool enough to keep with tradition. If you have no respect for tradition, why would anyone expect you to have respect for the animals you choose to kill for your sport. To some of us it was handed down from our fathers and we intend to pass it on almost as a religion. It is more than cutting and killing, it's about time spent in the woods, memories with friends, respect for the animals you take and keeping tradition alive. A little bit of knowledge goes a long way. Good luck on your murderess rampage.


back in the day i heard many people used sights on there recurves, by todays view that seems wrong but the trad guys back then used them. its archery, use what ever you want that makes you feel more confident. if we really wanted to get into it a trad guy probably shouldnt be using a glass bow, steel heads, High performance strings, carbon or aluminum arrows ect..


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

Are plastic nocks traditional? Are synthetic fiber stings like Dacron B50 traditional? mechanical broadheads have been around longer than both of these! 

I have been shooting and hunting with traditional equipment since I started hunting other than my first season where I shot a used compound instinctively off the shelf. 

I have dedicated myself to this sport - I shoot practically every single day, I shoot in winter and summer leagues, I shoot at every competition and 3D shoot I can possibly attend. I have reached a level of accuracy that has allowed me to place 4th in the world in my class two years in a row, that has allowed me to take 3rd in the IBO $1000.00 shoot off this year in all classes, to take first in the IBO moving target pop-up challenge last year, etc...

I make my own arrows, I butcher my own deer, make my own sausage and venison bacon, I teach archery and bowhunting to kids via Boy Scouts and our local archery club, I am working on getting the National Archery in the Schools program right now in our public schools - even though all of my kids are and have been homeschooled. I am the treasurer of my archery club. Every year I give a traditional archery demonstration and lessons at our local Ruffed Grouse Festival, etc...

And I have some guy on the internet who thinks archery is a religion telling me that I go on a "murderss rampage" because I am going to test a different designed broadhead - a design that has been around longer than plastic nocks and synthetic strings - but because in his religion it is not traditional I am some sort of evil person - give me a break.


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## sawtoothscream (Apr 19, 2008)

lostarrow68 said:


> The Native Americans did not make arrowheads from steel. Flint, obsidian or bone.


pretty sure they switched over to steel. use to trade for steel to make stuff out of.


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## sawtoothscream (Apr 19, 2008)

sharpbroadhead said:


> Are plastic nocks traditional? Are synthetic fiber stings like Dacron B50 traditional? mechanical broadheads have been around longer than both of these!
> 
> I have been shooting and hunting with traditional equipment since I started hunting other than my first season where I shot a used compound instinctively off the shelf.
> 
> ...


your the devil


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

LOL



I dunno sawtoothscream - your nickname and that avatar make me wonder about you -


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## sawtoothscream (Apr 19, 2008)

sharpbroadhead said:


> LOL
> 
> 
> 
> I dunno sawtoothscream - your nickname and that avatar make me wonder about you -


:devil:


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## Matt_Potter (Apr 13, 2010)

If the native Americans could have used compounds or for that matter AK-47's they sure as heck would have - they were trying to SURVIVE.

I choose to shoot a metal riser recurve and carbon limbs - you know come to think of it the only natural material in my whole set up is the feathers on my arrrows and they are dyed - I don't call myself a "Traditional" Bowhunter I am a bowhunter who shoots a recurve. I will pass my woodsman-ship down to my sons and daughter just like my father did to me and his father to him and I will do it with no preconceived notions of what is TRAD or not - if my kids want to hunt with a compound or a gun I don't care.

My great grandfather was one of the first hunting guides in the Adirondacks and I promise you he would find the concept of bow hunting laughable.

Ken has taken a whole bunch of crap on this thread because of who he is not what he proposed - if anyone else had started this thread the reaction wouldn't have been nearly as strong.

Matt


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

and who I am is the devil according to sawtoothscream -


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## benofthehood (May 18, 2011)

Me and OSB butt heads over a range of issues as he well knows :tongue:... but accusing him of "murderous rampage ? I don't know the guy personally , never met him and at best traded verbal barbs and a couple of PM's with him over the years . 
At no point has he ever indicated an intent nor desire to go on any "rampage" ... far from it . I'd say that he is ethical as the next guy , amybe more so than a bunch of others I know ... much like his recent comments about why he doesn't hunt in the rain because of lost blood trails ... they weren't the comments of a bloodthirsty killer ..... No, it was , as I read it, an expression of a guy who doesn't want nor like wasted meat nor animal suffering.
To suggest otherwise based on his equiment choice is unfair in the extreme.

My felt hat and flannel shirt find the "murderous rampage' accusation "Unethical " .....:angel:


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

wow benofthehood - I am getting a warm fuzzy feeling - sort of like a felt hat and flannel shirt -


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## rattus58 (Jul 9, 2007)

voodoofire1 said:


> Ya reckon the native americans had a fight like this when one of them made a new head from steel?


 Of course not... they picked up musket quickly enough... and then the Henry Repeaters.... In fact I saw a documentary recently of one of them taking down a pteradactyle with an early rage broadhead... :grin:


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## benofthehood (May 18, 2011)

sharpbroadhead said:


> wow benofthehood - I am getting a warm fuzzy feeling - sort of like a felt hat and flannel shirt -


Ken ... lets not get carried away:wink: ... give it a few days and we'll be back at it :thumbs_up:thumbs_up:thumbs_up


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## bilbowbone (Jan 15, 2011)

If making sure that you can kill an animal with the least risk of just wounding it instead of killing it is THE most ethical thing a bow hunter can do then why don't all you ethical traditional bow hunters use a plunger, elevated rest, etc... So many here say things that tell me you look down your nose at those who don't shoot completely traditional equipment and yet you worry about being as ethical as possible when killing an animal. It seems many are talking out of both sides of their mouth.


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## rattus58 (Jul 9, 2007)

bilbowbone said:


> If making sure that you can kill an animal with the least risk of just wounding it instead of killing it is THE most ethical thing a bow hunter can do then why don't all you ethical traditional bow hunters use a plunger, elevated rest, etc... So many here say things that tell me you look down your nose at those who don't shoot completely traditional equipment and yet you worry about being as ethical as possible when killing an animal. It seems many are talking out of both sides of their mouth.


 Well then you'd also be saying that one should be only hunting with a 50 caliber BMG.... or my 58 caliber longgun with a 550 grain conical.... :grin:

What about the accomplished shelf shooter who practices and is credibly competant... deprive him? How would that suggestion be any different than suggesting that one be able to pass a proficiency test? What about the dude who is accomplished with a 243 or maybe even a 223.... are there really any shooters out there capable with a 223? Headshots? Or those guys shooting at 1000 yards at elk in their beds....?? I know what you're suggesting here, but what is ethical? And why is one mans ethics better than anothers? To me, ethics is the manner in which you conduct yourself in the pursuit of a legal enterprise... for us here... hunting... :thumbs_up

But to answer you from my opinion bank, the shot is everything in a hunt once the animal is found. Accuracy is paramount. A well placed shot through the lungs/heart with a reasonably sharp broadhead will do the deed. Equipment, other than a wood arrow :grin:.... really don't matter... its the placement of the arrow.... no?


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## SteveB (Dec 18, 2003)

> No, it was , as I read it, an expression of a guy who doesn't want nor like wasted meat nor animal suffering.


But willing to try something new that he is unsure of enough that it will be tested on "* JUST A DOE*" and not a nice buck.


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## benofthehood (May 18, 2011)

I don't agree with Ken's oputlook on the why and wherefore of the whole expandable b'head / only a doe saga ... I am pretty sure he'll only take an ethical shot and get his deer.
I hold equal value on all game animals regardless of size or sex ... Ken thinks differently . I disagree strongly with him on this ,,, but again, If Ken didn't think this would kill his deer I doubt he would do it. 
Disagreeing on values is one thing , hurling " murderous rampage" and such is another. Much the same as I don't agree with a lot of hunting methods ... doesn't mean I am right , nor morally superior because of such belief.

I am superior coz I use wood arrows ......:wink:


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## voodoofire1 (Jan 24, 2006)

Really, I don't give a crap what he does, I don't walk in his shoes, and I don't have to live with the outcome.......

And really when you think about it, the worst thing that could possibly happen is that he would succeed ............then and come on here and every other forum touting the prowess of the rage broadhead to other Trad shooters, who may just run out and try it themselves.......just because it can be done, doesn't make it a good Idea......heck I can throw 30' of massive fire out the back of my hot rod on command, think for a minute that I'll someone else how I do it?...........Not a Chance!!


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## Matt_Potter (Apr 13, 2010)

So I have a question - how many of you guys when you first transitioned over to traditional from wheels hunted with your wheels until you got a buck and then tried to get a doe with a traditional bow? If so that seems like the same "JUST A DOE" mentality to me.

Personally if I wanted to leave a bunch of blood on the ground I would use a sharp 160 grain snuffer not an expandable but, that is my personal decision.

Matt


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## MAC 11700 (Feb 22, 2011)

voodoofire1 said:


> Really, I don't give a crap what he does, I don't walk in his shoes, and I don't have to live with the outcome.......
> 
> And really when you think about it, the worst thing that could possibly happen is that he would succeed ............*then and come on here and every other forum touting the prowess of the rage broadhead to other Trad shooters,* who may just run out and try it themselves.......just because it can be done, doesn't make it a good Idea......heck I can throw 30' of massive fire out the back of my hot rod on command, think for a minute that I'll someone else how I do it?...........Not a Chance!!


Doe or buck..it matters not..what matters is a quick clean kill....Since talking with him...I am sure the shot will be close enough that the head will work..He's not experimenting with it to make a 40-50 yard shot just because of what folks say about it like that...he's using them for 2 reasons...1...they were given to him and he doesn't have to spend anything to get them...and 2...cause he wants a better blood trail...and these heads are suppose to give that..If they blow through the deer at 20-25 yards..then I don't see any harm done..If they do no better than any other head he has used..then it is what it is...and he will be told...na na told you so...

I am sure from talking with him..he will report the outcome fairly to us here and not go on a rampage elsewhere about them...It's those that who don't fully grasp the way not to use them and the fan boys of the head that will be the problem.

Mac


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## SteveB (Dec 18, 2003)

It is an experiment if he is not confident enough to shoot them at any deer that comes anong he would want to kill instead of trying them on "JUST A DOE".


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## voodoofire1 (Jan 24, 2006)

So, if someone wanted to try these out of a trad bow should they shoot the regular 2 blade, or the 40KE heads? I would imagine the 3 blade is a definate no no with traditional gear...........Ken which ones are you shooting?


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

I am going to test the 40KE - designed for bows with 40lbs of KE or less. This whole panthiestic idea that all animals are equal is silly to me - animals are animals. Bacteria are animals, insects are animals, worms are animals, rodents are animals, etc... We hold deer for example well above insects, and we hold our pet dog well above deer, and I hold a trophy buck above a doe - and I think most hunters, if they are honest with themselves do as well.


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## MAC 11700 (Feb 22, 2011)

sharpbroadhead said:


> I am going to test the 40KE - designed for bows with 40lbs of KE or less. This whole panthiestic idea that all animals are equal is silly to me - animals are animals. Bacteria are animals, insects are animals, worms are animals, rodents are animals, etc... We hold deer for example well above insects, and we hold our pet dog well above deer, and I hold a trophy buck above a doe - and I think most hunters, if they are honest with themselves do as well.


Yup...we do...

Did you check the tip sharpness yet ? How did it do ?

Mac


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

Hey mac - just did it now when the blades were not deployed the tear was off - the deployment tore the paper weird - so I did it with the blades deployed - the one on the left is the Rage the one on the right is a Stinger Buzzcut.

I had to take a few photos to get it where you could see the tears - this is the best one.


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

as you can see in the photo - the wound would be considerably larger with the Rage. Seems to me to be pretty darn sharp - this was like the third time through the paper - becuase I tried twice with the blades not deployed - but the leading edge that causes the deployment tears the paper bigger so you cannot see how sharp the blades are.


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## rattus58 (Jul 9, 2007)

sharpbroadhead said:


> View attachment 1157197
> 
> 
> Hey mac - just did it now when the blades were not deployed the tear was off - the deployment tore the paper weird - so I did it with the blades deployed - the one on the left is the Rage the one on the right is a Stinger Buzzcut.
> ...


One thing straight off that I see is what looks like a cleaner entry than the other. This would, in my limited interest in expandables, seem to indicate that you have a lot more drag increased at impact than a cut on contact head.

Aloha...


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## MAC 11700 (Feb 22, 2011)

sharpbroadhead said:


> as you can see in the photo - the wound would be considerably larger with the Rage. Seems to me to be pretty darn sharp - this was like the third time through the paper - becuase I tried twice with the blades not deployed - but the leading edge that causes the deployment tears the paper bigger so you cannot see how sharp the blades are.


Yup...

Ken...I have no doubt about the actual expandable blades and their sharpness...but..judging from the tears from the tip...IMHO...I would say while sharp..is no where close to where it needs to be...

This is the same issue I had with the Stainless GR heads...and your other head looks actually worse..It should look just like your cuts on the Rage blades from start to finish on the cut...This explains to me why ( _if this is as sharp as your heads that gave lousy blood trails_) good blood trails didn't happen...

Look closely at the lines from each...and you can see where it is tearing...not really cutting as it should..Veins an arteries move..and aren't stretched tight and held static like...in any rubber band test you have done...this is why I have all of my heads scalpel sharp..I've seen too many deer not bleed out by heads that aren't sharp...Many of the elitist crowd and many of the manufactures say otherwise..but..I know what works best for me..I've been at this for too long to say otherwise..I'm not saying it won't kill...but...if you are looking for the best blood trail..it needs to be sharper than what I am looking at...


If you are going ahead and using it ...please sharpen it till the tip cuts like the expandable blades..otherwise..your not really using a cut on contact head at all..and it will _hamper_ your penetration _some_..Get that ceramic stone I showed you..you can resharpen the expandable blades and you might be able to do the tip on the flat side of it depending on how it is constructed..or I can still send you mine to use if you don't want to by one..

Personally...you know how I feel about them..and in all honesty...I would send them back to your friend to use on his compound...Then I would either switch to a really razor sharp head out of the box..or do some serious sharpening on what you already have..

Mac


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

There is no way to not have a tear like it is in the center - the ferrule did that. Look at the design of the head:


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

see how the blade is on the ferrule - there is no way no matter how sharp it is that the tear will be any different.


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## MAC 11700 (Feb 22, 2011)

sharpbroadhead said:


> see how the blade is on the ferrule - there is no way no matter how sharp it is that the tear will be any different.


Have someone else hold the paper...and just push the head in enough to pass the blade on it Ken..see if that helps show it.. Are the tips replaceable on them ?

Got the magazines today...damn...you sent a bunch of them didn't you..I certainly appreciate it..

Mac


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

not sure what you mean - I put the arrow in a vice and pushed the paper past the head.


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## Forrest Halley (Jul 24, 2011)

So if this is a test of the sharpness of the blades shouldn't it be done as real world as possible? Are you going to hunt with the blades already expanded or closed? Seems pointless to eliminate functions that the system will have to undergo in the real world use to make a point on a piece of paper. Why not just accept the not so pretty results and educate folks on why the mechanical doesn't cut as pretty as the COC? Granted it sucks and should be obvious on closer inspection, but is still necessary. It seems like something is being shined up this way. 

This isn't an unethical idea it just has been poorly presented continuously. I was mistaken, he's not a bad guy; he's a bad salesman. My appologies to OSB. The guy can shoot WELL and he'll probably ace the shot that's presented. Like the other fella said it doesn't mean that this is for everyone. Rock on OSB.


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## MAC 11700 (Feb 22, 2011)

Forrest Halley said:


> So if this is a test of the sharpness of the blades shouldn't it be done as real world as possible? Are you going to hunt with the blades already expanded or closed? Seems pointless to eliminate functions that the system will have to undergo in the real world use to make a point on a piece of paper. Why not just accept the not so pretty results and educate folks on why the mechanical doesn't cut as pretty as the COC? Granted it sucks and should be obvious on closer inspection, but is still necessary. It seems like something is being shined up this way.
> 
> This isn't an unethical idea it just has been poorly presented continuously. I was mistaken, he's not a bad guy; he's a bad salesman. My appologies to OSB. The guy can shoot WELL and he'll probably ace the shot that's presented. Like the other fella said it doesn't mean that this is for everyone. Rock on OSB.


I ask him to test the tips on these...this is why he did this to show how they either cut..or tear..

My contention is a simple one..If it tears a piece of paper when pushing the tip through..it will not do as well as one that cuts..Simple as that..

Mac


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

we shall see what happens in just over a week when the season opens - I will post pics of it all - good or bad.


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## Forrest Halley (Jul 24, 2011)

MAC 11700 said:


> I ask him to test the tips on these...this is why he did this to show how they either cut..or tear..
> 
> My contention is a simple one..If it tears a piece of paper when pushing the tip through..it will not do as well as one that cuts..Simple as that..
> 
> Mac


Well it's obvious that it won't do as well on paper from the much larger ferrule/initial cutting surface ratio on the mechanical. I don't believe that paper is all that representative of lethality either. Isn't a tear much more devastating on live tissue than a clean slice? You're getting the severing of blood vessels and the disruption/distortion of tissue all at once making it difficult for the wound to close. An open wound seems like it would more efficiently allow blood to flow out giving us the trail to follow. Getting too clean a cut doesn't seem optimally productive either as the wound could more easily close and on a less than good hit that doesn't translate into good ground sign for recovery.


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## rattus58 (Jul 9, 2007)

Forrest Halley said:


> Well it's obvious that it won't do as well on paper from the much larger ferrule/initial cutting surface ratio on the mechanical. I don't believe that paper is all that representative of lethality either. Isn't a tear much more devastating on live tissue than a clean slice? You're getting the severing of blood vessels and the disruption/distortion of tissue all at once making it difficult for the wound to close. An open wound seems like it would more efficiently allow blood to flow out giving us the trail to follow. Getting too clean a cut doesn't seem optimally productive either as the wound could more easily close and on a less than good hit that doesn't translate into good ground sign for recovery.


 Cut yourself with a scalpel sometime and come back to report the result... :grin:

Blood trails for me have been as a result of the cutting diameter overall... why I prefer snuffers or barring that, three bladed versus two. For killing, I think shot placement is the answer, and a lung shot is beautiful to watch and it also blows blood. Tree stands with a pass through, I would think, gives a better blood trail than say a broadside lung... though I've never really had to go far to find a double lung shot.

My OPINION is that shot placement is paramount, not the ability to cause the animal to bleed out... but big and sharp are my remedy.... sharp should be everyones remedy regardless whether two, four or 6 bladed... and of course double lung... :grin:


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## MAC 11700 (Feb 22, 2011)

Forrest Halley said:


> Well it's obvious that it won't do as well on paper from the much larger ferrule/initial cutting surface ratio on the mechanical. I don't believe that paper is all that representative of lethality either. Isn't a tear much more devastating on live tissue than a clean slice? You're getting the severing of blood vessels and the disruption/distortion of tissue all at once making it difficult for the wound to close. An open wound seems like it would more efficiently allow blood to flow out giving us the trail to follow. Getting too clean a cut doesn't seem optimally productive either as the wound could more easily close and on a less than good hit that doesn't translate into good ground sign for recovery.


How fast does a paper cut close up ?

This isn't testing as in substituting it for hide or hair...It is just to see how sharp the tip is...not the ferrule...period...It's something I ask Ken to check for me on them..as I had the same issue with another mechanical head...the Grim Reaper..Their super sharp razor cut..wasn't sharp at all...just like this...Now...to answer your question...no..a jagged/serrated cut is not better than a scalpel cut..not when it comes to cutting force or the pressure used...and certainly not to veins or arteries when the head comes in contact with as it passes through the deer.No wound channel is going to close up if cut completely through on a deer..and is exactly why we need to use as sharp of head as we can get...

A scalpel cut..will not heal quickly or close easily...especially when moving as in what a deer does.. A ragged cut edge does...It has areas to over lap and start the coagulation process.

Take 2 knives...1 a razor sharp fillet knife..the other a serrated knife..With 1 smooth motion...cut diagonally across a good quality rare steak ( remember in 1 smooth motion )...and see which is easiest...We aren't sawing our way through a deer when we shoot them...if we were..then yes a serrated blade would be best.

Mac


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## LongStick64 (Aug 29, 2009)

Just remember if the outcome is not good, please don't post the results, I'd hate for this to become PETA propaganda material. While your intentions are meant to be good, there is a resposibility to harvest an animal with utmost confidence in the performance in your setup. If you have ANY doubts, please refrain. And please respect the Doe you intend to shoot and do not take her just to prove a point.


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

LongStick - I shoot deer to eat - not prove points. And I will share the results no matter what they are - for if they are bad - then others will know and not use them - if they are good - then others may wish to use them - either way it is what it is. I am not worried about anti-hunters - they are virtually no threat to us - the threat to us is from other hunters - the anti-everything and anything hunters: - the anti-compound hunters, the anti-crossbow hunters, the anti-camo hunters, the anti-baiting hunters, the anti-hound hunters, the anti-treestand hunters, the anti-firearm hunters, the anti-inline blackpowder hunters, etc... - they are who are the true threat - not the tofu eating fruit loving anti-hunters.


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## Daidohead (Dec 21, 2010)

Sharpbroadhead,

I thank you for your willingness to post and I look forward to seeing the results. 

If you get 7 pages of a.r.bs. trying an existing technology, imagine what you'd get trying a prototype of something new.


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## LongStick64 (Aug 29, 2009)

You are correct in that hunters need to be supporting each other no matter what we use to get the job done. But you need to realize that our actions do represent us to anyone not a hunter. You have to understand that what you are doing has a chance to provide the anti hunting movement ammunition so to speak. Maybe where you live the anti hunting presure is not as common as it is here in NY. More and more land access is being lost. Budgets to support state hunting land has been drastically cut. For example, wild hogs have been found in NY. This year the State does not have any resources to attempt to capture and eliminate the hogs before they become a major problem in NY and dramatically affect the deer population. All of this is possible because we do not have state government that is concerned with hunting, why because there is a large anti hunting lobby working against us. So while I do agree that as hunter we need to stick together, but there is a REAL threat to our choice of recreation.

And I do have issue with the fact that you do not seem very confident that those heads will do the job, I really believe that is very iresponsible of you. I've been taught to only take a shot when I have the absolute confidence that my arrow is going to slice through heart or lungs. If you do not have that confidence, why do it. I use VPA heads that shave the hair off my arm. I know that when I put that arrow where it needs to go, without any question it is going to do the job.


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

LongStick64 - Please...I shoot virtually every day and have reached a level of accuracy that very few have or ever will - why - because I am responsible and don't want to be wounding animals for no reason.

I also know how my brain works and unless I am shooting something that I have experience with and shot before - if a trophy buck walks in front of me - I will have every question and doubt imaginable go through my head. When I am making a high pressure shot - I need 10000% of my concentration on the shot and nothing else. 

The same applies when I shoot in competition. I would never go into a competition with a new brand of arrow that I have not shot before and have experience with - not because that arrow will not do the job - but because I have not experienced it and I don't want any doubts to go through my mind when I shoot. I will not even shoot a competitive shoot with a new string until I have shot it in for at least a few weeks. 

It is how I think and work - and I am certainly not going to take a shot at a trophy buck with any piece of equipment that I have not shot before. A doe to me is not a high pressure shot - you can judge me all you want - but it is not. I practically hyperventilate when a trophy buck is coming close to me - a doe barely gets my heart going faster - right or wrong in your mind - it is what it is for me and I cannot change the way i react to these differnet animals - there is nothing I can do that will make me get as excited and feel the pressure I do when a trophy buck is in and project that on a doe - it just ain't gonna happen. When I am under high pressure - I will not shoot with anything new or different that I have not used before - simple as that.


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## MAC 11700 (Feb 22, 2011)

sharpbroadhead said:


> LongStick64 - Please...I shoot virtually every day and have reached a level of accuracy that very few have or ever will - why - because I am responsible and don't want to be wounding animals for no reason.
> 
> I also know how my brain works and unless I am shooting something that I have experience with and shot before - if a trophy buck walks in front of me - I will have every question and doubt imaginable go through my head. When I am making a high pressure shot - I need 10000% of my concentration on the shot and nothing else.
> 
> ...


You'll do all right..I have confidence in that.....just keep the shot at or under your normal yardage and you'll have meat in the freezer...

Mac


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## voodoofire1 (Jan 24, 2006)

"I shoot virtually every day and have reached a level of accuracy that very few have or ever will"

:horn:


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

voodoofire - you bet - when i have self righteous individuals calling into question my ethics - I will toot my horn to put an end to such nonsenes - I work hard to be an ethical hunter and to have people who know nothing about me making such rash statements - i will toot my horn to silence such nonsense - I have taken forth in the world two years in a row in the recurve class, I have taken first in the moving targets against all classes, 3rd against all classes in the IBO 3 Rivers Shoot Off against all of the best trad shooters in the country - and I have some guy in here questioning my ethics as if I am going to be in the woods wounding animals - give me a break.


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## LongStick64 (Aug 29, 2009)

Sharpbroadhead

please sir understand, I can only take from you what you say. From reading your posts, you did not come off as being confident that the broadhead would do the job as expected, you did not sound very convincing. That is why I questioned you, there were your words not mine. So cut the self righteous crap, all I cared about is whether you were absolutely confident in your rig. Read yours words and then who cares what we think.


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## idrigg (Sep 8, 2011)

Several years ago I shot 4 deer with NAP 100 grain 2-blade spitfire expandables. Bear TD Hunter 70# @ 28" Beman Carbon Hawk arrows. 3 passthrus with short easy bloodtrails and 1 shoulder blade shot did not turn out well at all. The deer went by a buddy of mine 30 minutes after the shot, flopped around on the ground, pulled the arrow out, and walked into the swamp like he was never hurt.


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## trapperDave (Mar 12, 2005)

big difference between foam and live, moving, wary animals.


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## LongStick64 (Aug 29, 2009)

Getting back to the archery part of this.
Can you tell us what setup are you going to use, Bow, Arrow, arrow length, insert weight, nock, broadhead weight, bow weight, your draw length. I'd like to get an understanding of the ft/lbs performance of your setup. Reason I ask, I thought there was a minimum requirement of bow performance recommended for the use of expandale broadheads. I could be wrong but just asking. I also emailed Rage the same question, will let you know if they respond.

Please understand I completely understand your point and I do agree that you have the right to try what you wish, but you need to understand that I can completely disagree with you and consider what you are doing is not correct. That is the whole purpose of discussion.


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## MAC 11700 (Feb 22, 2011)

idrigg said:


> Several years ago I shot 4 deer with NAP 100 grain 2-blade spitfire expandables. Bear TD Hunter 70# @ 28" Beman Carbon Hawk arrows. 3 passthrus with short easy bloodtrails and 1 shoulder blade shot did not turn out well at all. The deer went by a buddy of mine 30 minutes after the shot, flopped around on the ground, pulled the arrow out, and walked into the swamp like he was never hurt.


That's why I sold mine...but yet I know guys that won't use anything else either ( all compound shooters )...with enough speed/energy behind them...they are wicked...

1 thing about NAP...they make some damn super sharp broadheads..and will tell you straight out what K.E. the recommend any of their mechanicals to be used at..and not to be used at...Once I talked to them..they convinced me which of their heads were the best for my recurve..The Rages are supposed to work for these too...I hope they do well for him...

Mac


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## LongStick64 (Aug 29, 2009)

This is what I got back from Rage

"Depending on the head you are looking at it goes something like this:



2” = 70 lbs

1.5” 3 blade = 55lbs

40ke = 40lbs

Xbow heads = 60lbs (any bow can shoot them with enough KE)"


Looks like you need a significant traditional setup.


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## LongStick64 (Aug 29, 2009)

From my calculations my 62lb Great Northern Critter Gitter and my 29.5 ICS 400, 160 grain head, 75 brass insert is getting me 41lbs/ft, not good enough for my setup I would think.


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

Longstick - the 40KE is for bows with less than 40 KE - my bow is 34.5 if I remember right. If you question that - read it from their own website: http://www.ragebroadheads.com/Products/40-KE-Broadhead.php

The NAP story is sad - but this sort of thing can happen with any head or set up - here is a video of a guy shooting a heavy arrow with a cut on contact twoblade: http://www.bowhunting.tv/playvideowindow2.cfm?file=2009106053570554&id=1446 Does that mean nobody should ever use heavy arrows and cut on contact two blades?


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## LongStick64 (Aug 29, 2009)

Is that the head you are going to use ? If yes then go for it.


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

loves it when people try to belittle accuracy with comments like this: "big difference between foam and live, moving, wary animals" - usually these are the same types on the range that say things after missing multiple easy shots like: "in the woods I never miss" - LOL

I always find it amazing that anyone actually believes a guy that shoots awesome on a 3D range suddenly cannot shoot worth a crap in the woods and a guy that shoots like crap on the 3D range suddenly shoots like robinhood in the woods.

I know far to many great shots on the 3D range that consistently bring home the venison to believe such nonsense - and I know a lot of really poor shots who are big talkers on the 3D range that rarely bring home the meat!

My freezer still has venison in it from last season - and I have four kids still at home along with myself and my wife and we do not even buy beef - so for me - foam or live animal - if I want it - my arrow goes where it needs to go. - OH and the comment about the moving animals - well - I did alright at the IBO moving target pop up challenge as well and have shot my fair share of moving animals from rabbits to grouse.


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## voodoofire1 (Jan 24, 2006)

Hmmm, I've never heard Dave say that even once in all the times I've shot with him, and have you ever heard of target panic?, it's a very good reason for shooting like crap in the woods..... and foam is totally different than shooting live game, with me, I don't focus nearly as intent on foam as I do when taking a life....whole different ball game there............., heck at the 3-d range you can wear a clown suit ,toot your horn while jumping up and down and that foam deer won't budge an inch, do it in the woods and see what happens......


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## sawtoothscream (Apr 19, 2008)

why are people saying big difference between foam and and deer. sounds like OSB has killed his fair share of deer with his bow and knows when to take the shot and how far he should. between him being good at 3d as it sounds and hunting for years i think he should be fine. the broadhead shouldnt make him abad shot. only thing to question is if it will work. theres a guy on the rage staff taht has already killed multiple deer with the 2" rage (of course penetration didnt look amazing on any of his shots though)


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

voodoofire and you can miss and wound dozens of deer in the woods and nobody knows but you - on the 3D range when you shoot like crap all your pals know and so does everyone else. 

Bottom line is there was no need for the stupid comment about foam and deer - I have killed plenty of deer and foam - the comment was dumb.

Thanks sawtooth - the problem with these types of comments is that they are a set up - they imply that one cannot shoot and/or hunt well - and then when you show that you can - you are accused of bragging or tooting your own horn - you can't win. I could post pics of all the bucks and antlers hanging on my living room wall (my wife is great about it), and my freezer full of venison - but then they would whine about something else or accuse me of tooting my own horn. 

It is really stupid like the comment about foam and deer.


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## wtpops (Sep 18, 2005)

I will be interested to see your results


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## voodoofire1 (Jan 24, 2006)

It isn't a stupid comment OSB, you may be a great shot , but it still doesn't change the fact that shooting at foam is different than shooting a live animal that can move in a split second, sure the rages will work under perfect circumstances, but being a great shot has nothing to do with perfect circumstances in the woods, things can and do happen all the time, and can turn that perfect shot to crap in no time at all, I too await your results, good or bad, heck maybe I'll hunt one up myself, I'm getting 60ke from my setup, should be plenty for the two blades, Wouldn't you agree?......... see I'm not totally against using these..............just a bit concerned about your setup and using them, but we'll see what happens.....


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## rattus58 (Jul 9, 2007)

STUPID is for others you know....


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## bilbowbone (Jan 15, 2011)

Don't get me wrong, as I said earlier, I feel it is quite important to do your best and take the least chances when killing something but a friend of mine made a great point at lunch yesterday. Another fellow was lamenting that for the first time in his 20 years of deer hunting with a bow (compound) last weekend he had a pass through on a big buck and after searching for 5 hours with 5 guys they couldn't locate it and he felt real bad for the waste of that animal. The other guy said "a waste for who? You really think mother nature is going to let that buck's body go to waste?"


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

good point billowbone - the coyotes have to eat -  - but I prefer to feed my family with 'em rather than the coyotes.


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## MAC 11700 (Feb 22, 2011)

voodoofire1 said:


> It isn't a stupid comment OSB, you may be a great shot , but it still doesn't change the fact that shooting at foam is different than shooting a live animal that can move in a split second, sure the rages will work under perfect circumstances, but being a great shot has nothing to do with perfect circumstances in the woods, things can and do happen all the time, and can turn that perfect shot to crap in no time at all, I too await your results, good or bad, heck maybe I'll hunt one up myself, I'm getting 60ke from my setup, should be plenty for the two blades, Wouldn't you agree?......... see I'm not totally against using these..............just a bit concerned about your setup and using them, but we'll see what happens.....


Deer can and will move on you...when you least expect it...and it won't matter *what* head is being used if they drop enough to turn a double lung into a really high hit.. or miss...That said...if you are _"proficient"_ and a very good shot and have proved to yourself (the most important) and of course to others in all of the various tournaments..then the odds are greatly stacked in your favor on putting the arrow in the right place when the time comes..

Ken...if you showed all the racks & mounts in your home...some here would claim your just bragging again...:BangHead::BangHead::BangHead:

Bro...you've defended yourself enough on this..Good Luck on your hunt with them

Mac


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

thanks Mac


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## trapperDave (Mar 12, 2005)

I do ok on foam too OSB. Ive won my class five or six times this year and took first in LB class at the Indiana State Bowhunters Association rendesvous this year 

And I have no problem makin meat either. LOL

shootin foam n live game still aint the same.

You thought it was uncommon to see or hear deer go down after the shot....maybe youre one of those that shoots better on foam hence the desire for a magic broadhead.

stupid is as stupid does


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

or maybe I am one of those who hunts in thick swamps in the northwoods and not in agricultural fields - stupid is as stupid posts


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## MAC 11700 (Feb 22, 2011)

Swamp Hunting ain't a walk in the park...that's for sure...You guys that have never done it...aught to try it...just watch out for most all of the critters that live in them ...some of them..depending on where your at have a real nasty bite...:wink: :wink: :wink:

Mac


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

not up here - our dangerous critters are wolves, bear, badgers, fishers - and the chances of having an issue with any of these are pretty slim to none - though I once came upon a bear real close when tracking a deer I shot - had 4 of my kids with me and no gun - he took one look at me and knew better -


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## MAC 11700 (Feb 22, 2011)

sharpbroadhead said:


> not up here - our dangerous critters are wolves, bear, badgers, fishers - and the chances of having an issue with any of these are pretty slim to none - though I once came upon a bear real close when tracking a deer I shot - had 4 of my kids with me and no gun - he took one look at me and knew better -


Cotton Mouths and some real nasty spiders most prevalent here...and can ruin your day real quick....but down south..those alligators and crocs would be a nightmare to deal with..

Mac


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## LongStick64 (Aug 29, 2009)

Closest form of a broadhead test would be shooting that head with your rig into a slab of beef not foam. I would bet the farm that on foam any razor sharp, cut on impact head would out penetrate any expandable head shot from a traditional bow. You cant use compound bow tests as an example.


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

a slab of beef? Have you seen the prices of beef lately - I would be in divorce court - oh - and I don't own a compound.


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## trapperDave (Mar 12, 2005)

huntin fields only works on tv.

I cut my teeth hunting Hoosier National forest.

Adouble lunged deer never goes more than fifty yards 

shot placement, my boy. shot placement


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

fifty yards and you can see and hear them fall in thick forest - ok superman


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## Bobman (Dec 18, 2004)

I've killed at least one deer in late sept thru October in the Chequamegon every year since 1972 only 3-4 of them didn't die within sight. 

Early season its a jungle with skeeters that will carry you away so I gave up on that, I can see how they could run out of sight when the leaves are out.

Usaully they sprint for about 30 yards then stand there and flop over. 

Just my experiences I dont care what you or anyone else hunts with. 

Old school Bear razor heads 68lb recurve, under 25 yards most around 15.


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## LongStick64 (Aug 29, 2009)

*Beef....it's better than foam*

This is a much better test than foam 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DPR-FdAfGrw&feature=player_embedded#!

See if your broadhead can survive


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## Forrest Halley (Jul 24, 2011)

Is there anyway to tone down the pissing contest until the results are in or are we going to sit here and argue who's a better hunter based on the environment they hunt? 

Fields and hardwoods have long distance visibility and sound travels. Short pines and swamps have quickly deteriorating visibility and great sound absorption. Superman didn't hunt deer with a bow.

There are places on this earth that you can't see ten feet and even gunshots fail to be heard over 200 yards. 

Fur isn't foam and beef isn't fur..you don't say..ok got it thanks. 

What is with all the dares to destroy the broadheads before the hunt? One of the initial conditions expressed was the fact that the man didn't have to buy them; that they were given to him to test. If he does anything to screw them up it defeats the purpose of not having to buy anything. 

I'd agree with Mac to say that OSB has done enough defense of the idea and all the ethical concerns have been properly addressed.


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## SteveB (Dec 18, 2003)

All except that "just a doe" thing.


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## Mordekyle (Aug 8, 2011)

"Opting for a potentially ineffective set-up based-upon lack of antlers is ethically defunct"

What if we were to substitute "backup bow" for "mechanical broadhead"?

Doesn't everyone consider their backup bow, if not potentially ineffective, at least not as effective as their primary bow? If so, many people wouldn't upgrade their bows every year to get more efficency, velocity, KE, accuracy, whatever. 

According to this line of reasoning, any bow that is not an archer's primary bow is "potentially ineffective," because it is not perceived to be as effective as the new or primary bow.

I suppose selling your backup bow would also be ethically defunct.


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

LOL Mordekyle - I LOVE RAW LOGIC - it is sooooo lacking in this world!


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## voodoofire1 (Jan 24, 2006)

"Doesn't everyone consider their backup bow, if not potentially ineffective, at least not as effective as their primary bow?"

Not hardly, all the bows I have are equally capable of killing, I have different setups, 4 of them, but they really aren't backups for one another as I don't really prefer one over the other, and which one I use depends of which one I grab, or feel like shooting that day, I do understand what your saying, but it's just not true in every case........


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## Forrest Halley (Jul 24, 2011)

"Doesn't everyone consider their backup bow, if not potentially ineffective, at least not as effective as their primary bow? If so, many people wouldn't upgrade their bows every year to get more efficency, velocity, KE, accuracy, whatever."

I have spent the past three weeks practicing my fingers to a perpetually sore and hardened state with all three of the traditional bows I own. I believe the back up bow should be as solid as the primary and the two or three should be rotated constantly to ensure readiness with all platforms. If you own more than one bow you should try to be well rounded with all your bows or take them out of your hunting line up. 
My bows all rock because I have taken the time to tweak each one and learned a lot along the way. My newest bow is five years old. My 50# longbow was the first to be zeroed, if you will, so I put it down. I picked up the 60# longbow and fiddled with it until it shot the same way the 50# did. I was really doing terribly with my 50# recurve and thinking it was way different from the longbows until Black Wolf very subtly set me straight. I got motivated and went to the range today with a new outlook. The bow I consider myself weakest with shoots like this at 20 yards *when I do my part.* 







I intend to use whatever strikes me on a given day. My bows are all solid; each one looks different but shoots the same.


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## MAC 11700 (Feb 22, 2011)

Forrest Halley said:


> "Doesn't everyone consider their backup bow, if not potentially ineffective, at least not as effective as their primary bow? If so, many people wouldn't upgrade their bows every year to get more efficency, velocity, KE, accuracy, whatever."
> 
> I have spent the past three weeks practicing my fingers to a perpetually sore and hardened state with all three of the traditional bows I own. I believe the back up bow should be as solid as the primary and the two or three should be rotated constantly to ensure readiness with all platforms. If you own more than one bow you should try to be well rounded with all your bows or take them out of your hunting line up.
> My bows all rock because I have taken the time to tweak each one and learned a lot along the way. My newest bow is five years old. My 50# longbow was the first to be zeroed, if you will, so I put it down. I picked up the 60# longbow and fiddled with it until it shot the same way the 50# did. I was really doing terribly with my 50# recurve and thinking it was way different from the longbows until Black Wolf very subtly set me straight. I got motivated and went to the range today with a new outlook. The bow I consider myself weakest with shoots like this at 20 yards *when I do my part.*
> ...


I practice and shoot all of mine the same too (again)...I always shoot a couple practice shots at 10 yards..to trigger my brain for the flight of the arrows from each bow...and make a conscious effort to remember the differences at all the yardages I shoot..When you have been shooting the same bows for as long as I have...it's pretty well ingrained...unless you muck up the brain waves like I did...

The hardest thing I have done in the last 3 months...was to add a new bow to the mix...and try to learn a new release (3 under)...It has taken me a month to get back where I was when before I started trying new things and I finally feel confident with my older recurve and long bow again..I can't figure out these guys that shoot completely different new bows each week...with any consistency..way beyond my skill set...I can tell you that. 

Mac


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## Forrest Halley (Jul 24, 2011)

I am fortunate to shoot the same arrow in all three bows. That took some doing. I shoot split and have decided to follow the Rick Welch 1,2,shoot. That alone has made the most difference in accuracy for me. I am a believer in the warm up shots too. It only takes a moment and provides you with the extra confidence in your gear which is key. I now understand fully what OSB meant when he was talking about keeping some of his proven and tested arrows with him in the field. When the pressure builds up you have to bring your A game, rack or not.


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## voodoofire1 (Jan 24, 2006)

"I can't figure out these guys that shoot completely different new bows each week...with any consistency..way beyond my skill set...I can tell you that."

Mac, I build bows, so I don't have any choice but to shoot new bows each week, and after a while you get pretty good at it....... 

Here ya go Mac, my first shot from a just finished bow for my friend Mr.Vic....30 yds......dang frog was driving me nuts with his croaking as I was finishing up this bow....... he tasted very good!


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## MAC 11700 (Feb 22, 2011)

voodoofire1 said:


> "I can't figure out these guys that shoot completely different new bows each week...with any consistency..way beyond my skill set...I can tell you that."
> 
> Mac, I build bows, so I don't have any choice but to shoot new bows each week, and after a while you get pretty good at it.......
> 
> Here ya go Mac, my first shot from a just finished bow for my friend Mr.Vic....30 yds......dang frog was driving me nuts with his croaking as I was finishing up this bow....... he tasted very good!


Guess he won't be getting kissed by no princess...lol...lol...lol...

Love those antler knobs and risers of yours Bro...they look sweet...would love to have one of these days...

Mac


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## trapperDave (Mar 12, 2005)

ive read some stupid chit here, but this whole "back up bow is less effective" takes the cake.

same for not being able to shoot more than one bow.

an archer can shoot ANY bow. or at least SHOULD be able to.


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## MAC 11700 (Feb 22, 2011)

trapperDave said:


> ive read some stupid chit here, but this whole "back up bow is less effective" takes the cake.
> 
> same for not being able to shoot more than one bow.
> 
> an archer can shoot ANY bow. or at least SHOULD be able to.


Stupid chit ? Come on...your saying you can pick up any bow any style and shoot it as good as your favorite immediately without a few practice shots ? 

Sure you can Dave....

Mac


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## Jimmy Blackmon (Sep 9, 2010)

I concur Trapper. If you shoot instinctively you have to get your brain accustomed to where the bow shoots but if you shoot a system (gap, stringwalk, or point of aim) then you can shoot any of them. I go from stringwalking to gapping with no issue on several of my bows.


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## sharpbroadhead (Feb 19, 2004)

you guys are totally missing Mordekle's point - I am pretty sure he as being facetious about the 2nd bow - just trying to make a point about hypocrisy.


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## Pixel (Sep 19, 2019)

let us know what happened?


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## HawkeyeII (Sep 19, 2019)

Full penetration is uber important. Can't say I would do this.


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## tpcowfish (Aug 11, 2008)

This is from 2011, I don't think he is still on here, ?


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## UglyJoe (Oct 26, 2015)

Pixel said:


> let us know what happened?


Excellent trolling via thread necromancy. You, sir, have my respect.


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## aluminated (Oct 10, 2017)

But he probably got his 20 so he can hit the classifieds. Isn’t that all that really matters? To reap benefits without having to contribute?


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## UglyJoe (Oct 26, 2015)

aluminated said:


> But he probably got his 20 so he can hit the classifieds. Isn’t that all that really matters? To reap benefits without having to contribute?


Yes, but, the devil is in the artistic details. He did not simply find a stupendously old, necrotic thread to resurrect. He found one that could be considered controversial, against tradition, and whose OP is a banned member. It's a cornucopia of troll-dom.

I stand in awe of this magisterial brilliancy.


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## RJH1 (Jul 30, 2015)

I saw this was an old thread and i skimmed the whole thing so i could see the conclusion, and then nothing. This was like having the last page torn out of a book. Whoever bumped this should be banned, not for bumping an old thread to get his 20, but for bumping an old thread that 6 miles long with no end


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## GCook (Aug 22, 2016)

Maybe it's the banned OP under another name.

Sent from my SM-G892A using Tapatalk


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## CAPTJJ (Dec 24, 2007)

I remember that he killed a doe and the Rage worked great, pretty sure he kept hunting with them.

This thread reminds me of the old days when this forum was really busy, and there were some great posters that knew how to shoot and were really helpful. Ken, or sharpbroadhead was one of them, but he really let things get to him at times, and was banned often, LOL.


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## aluminated (Oct 10, 2017)

UglyJoe said:


> Yes, but, the devil is in the artistic details. He did not simply find a stupendously old, necrotic thread to resurrect. He found one that could be considered controversial, against tradition, and whose OP is a banned member. It's a cornucopia of troll-dom.
> 
> I stand in awe of this magisterial brilliancy.


I see and therefore am impressed, not only by that choice, but by your knowledge of said history. Respect.

That said, in my other life I’d have banned him straightaway.


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## sixlomaz (Sep 29, 2019)

May your luck increase 10x with that head.


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## GCook (Aug 22, 2016)

I've killed several pigs with Rage hypodermic heads. I ended up finding a wide CoC head and use it.

Sent from my SM-G892A using Tapatalk


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## Bowmania (Jan 3, 2003)

There's stubborn. There's me. There's really stubborn and OSB was waaaaaaaaaaaaaay beyond that. I miss him.

Bowmania


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