# Form question



## jim p (Oct 29, 2003)

It seems that many are being told to stand straight and not to lean back. Why is this considered correct form? It feels natural to lean back and many top shooters lean back. Maybe these top shooters could shoot better if the corrected their form or maybe they are the exception to the rule.

I would appreciate some insight into this small piece of how one should be positioned for shooting.


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## b-a-maniak (Apr 19, 2014)

I googled "top world archers" images and didn't see any of them leaning back. I'm not saying they're not there, just that I didn't see any. So the answer to your question is Biomechanics. I'm sure the coaches from here will add their vast and valued input, to help encourage and motivate. I'm no coach, just an old fingers shooter trying to get my last 2 working brain cells to pay attention to what these folks are offering, and then applying the discipline and doing it.
Check this out http://www.mfaa-archery.org/Tech-Support/Archery_Form_Handbook.pdf

If you're satisfied with your performance results as they are, then you are in a beautiful place. If you want to get better and see what your best is and can be, then the best investment you can make is to pay attention here on AT.


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## giltyone (Nov 9, 2009)

It is far easier to replicate the straight back versus 2.5 degrees of twist in my spine.... It's about using your natural skeletal structure as your reference.


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## jim p (Oct 29, 2003)

Take a look at Reo Wilde shooting in some of the world competitions. His head is almost over his right hip.


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## aread (Dec 25, 2009)

"Correct Form" is what we've come up with over many years and is what works for most beginning archers. However, it's just a place to start as archers develop their skills and move on to different equipment.

Standing up straight with the head centered over the center of body mass does give better balance. However, as Reo has figured out, there may be tradeoffs with other parts of an archers form due to differences in how the individuals body interacts with how a specific bow is set up.

The thing we see most often is the archer leaning back due to the bow's draw length being too long. Leaning back will help the archer feel more comfortable with a DL that's too long, but usually it prevents the use of the right back muscles during execution. 

Reo is obviously an exception to this generality. But don't forget that Reo has had coaching since birth from his dad who is one of the greatest archers of his generation. 

A rule of thumb is that if there is some form defect that you work your butt off to correct, sometime in the near future someone with that form defect is going to beat you.

Base your form decisions on results, not what feels comfortable. Comfortable is only what you are used to doing.

Allen


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## pwyrick (Feb 13, 2011)

While Reo is great, would you try to teach his form to a new shooter? I think there are standard positions that would belong in Shooting 101 that support repeatability. Deviation from the standard should only come with experience and results. But when a deviation fails, its nice to know that standard positions in order to be able to self correct. I don't know about you, but my coach doesn't think I'm good enough to watch me all the time. I, therefore, have to fix myself when I get out of whack.


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## Joe Schnur (Mar 22, 2012)

I was having the same problem and have been fighting it for a year. Yesterday my son who is also a top archer told me my stance was poor. Like I wanted to hear it from him told me to get my feet closer together and both feet slightly towards the target. Ti was not comfortable but just like a good golf grip foundations make all the difference. Standing straighter and arm is able to get straighter. So feet no more than hip width apart and you can't lean without falling over


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

jim p said:


> It seems that many are being told to stand straight and not to lean back. Why is this considered correct form? It feels natural to lean back and many top shooters lean back. Maybe these top shooters could shoot better if the corrected their form or maybe they are the exception to the rule.
> 
> I would appreciate some insight into this small piece of how one should be positioned for shooting.


So,
if you copy everything that Reo does,
did that make you shoot better?

Always try something
and see if it works.

Simple.

Then,
pick another pro shooter,
and try and copy what that other pro shooter does,
and see if then YOU shoot better than ever before in your life,
new personal best.

Why do coaches teach folks to stand up straight?
CUZ,
many times,
it gets BETTER results.

Everything is experienced based,
when a coach teaches students.

Understanding how the body works,
helps to SPEED up the process tremendously,
when working with a shooter, NEW or VERY experienced.

Then,
having MORE than the basic understanding of how the body works,
helps to deal with the SPECIAL cases...herniated disc, double broken collar bones, shoulder dislocations on ONE side,
busted wrist on one side, busted wrists on both sides, artificial joints, scoliosis, etc.

So,
some folks are unable to stand up straight, for a variety of reasons.

If YOU are working with a student,
FORGET about what works for OTHER shooters
and try and learn how to SEE what might work for the shooter YOU are working with.

When you can get BETTER results for the shooter YOU are working with,
then that is what COUNTS.

There are certain angles that work REALLY well for particular joints,
left arm pit,
right arm pit,
hips alignment,
shoulders alignment

release side upper arm (has a RANGE...a minimum and a maximum range of angles) that works REALLY well in humans...
the release side forearm (has a RANGE...a minimum and a maximum range of angles) that works REALLY well in humans...

So,
a case study.







He posted a How's My Form.

BUT,
one thing he did NOT mention in the thread,
one thing he did NOT tell me, until AFTER he and I finished, our ONE pm lesson.

He was holding low 12-INCHES.

So,
he ONLY asked about FORM.

Here are the THINGS I saw.

ORANGE dashed line makes it OBVIOUS, his weight is biased to the REAR leg.

LEFT armpit is LESS than 90 degrees. Makes the bow shoulder PRONE to collapsing. NEVER a good thing, as fatigue sets is.
The elbow (bow arm elbow) BELOW the shoulder, is a BIG No-No. VERY common, but a BIG No-No.

This is a bio-mechanically WEAK position,
to have a LEVEL shot,
to have LEVEL shoulders
and to have the SHOULDER to ELBOW on the bow arm side be DOWNHILL.

this is REALLY bad, VERY difficult to hold steady,
EXTREMELY difficult to shoot accurately.

CAN some shooters MASTER this style?
ABSOLUTELY.

Can the AVERAGE JOE master this STYLE??
VERY few do.

So,
the bow arm looks like an shallow UPSIDE DOWN frisbee.

VERY easy to see how and why this shooter is HOLDING LOW 12-inches,
even though he did not admit it,
until AFTER we were done.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

jim p said:


> It seems that many are being told to stand straight and not to lean back. Why is this considered correct form? It feels natural to lean back and many top shooters lean back. Maybe these top shooters could shoot better if the corrected their form or maybe they are the exception to the rule.
> 
> I would appreciate some insight into this small piece of how one should be positioned for shooting.


So,
my advice to this shooter.

LET'S do an EXPERIMENT,
and try a WEIRD, UNUSUAL,
STRANGE,
really OUT THERE new posture,
JUST for one picture.



ZERO changes to the bow.

Asked the shooter to FULL extend the bow arm,
really PUSH that SHORT ATA bow as FAR as possible from your face.

WHY?

Cuz,
this is a MUCH more solid framework.

Not copying some famous pro shooter.

Just basic engineering of the human body.

BUT
BUT
BUT
the string does not touch my nose.

I said,
EXACTLY,
but,
hey

this is just for ONE photo.

Won't hurt.

Told him
that when you PUSH the bow as FAR from your face, as possible,
ALLOW the RELEASE elbow to RISE UP as HIGH as the elbow wants to RISE UP,
kinda like a draw bridge.

Remember,
the RELEASE side upper arm has a RANGE of very efficient angles for the UPPER arm bone,
the RIGHT side armpit, for a right handed shooter.

The LANDMARK I look at
is the TIP of RELEASE ELBOW
to hit TOP of EAR HEIGHT.

Since I wanted this to be as SIMPLE as possible,
I just told the shooter to PUSH the bow as FAR as possible from your face...

FORGET stuff like "YOUR ANCHOR"

just allow the nock to SLIDE FORWARDS,
to where-ever the nock wants to end up on your face

just allow the RELEASE ELBOW to RISE as HIGH as possible,
where-ever the elbow (right side) WANTS to RISE UP.

Does this shooter resemble any pro shooter?

Dont' know.
Really could care less if this shooter resembles any pro shooter.
Doesn't really matter if he resembles any current or past pro shooter.

Just matters what the FINAL TEST RESULTS...end up being.



SIDE by SIDE comparison,
for BEFORE and AFTER.

Told the fella I need the MIDDLE of his neck
CENTERED between his ankles.

THIS is also called standing up straight,
weight BALANCED equally on BOTH legs.

Do any pro shooters stand up straight?
Probably.

Don't care about pro shooters who stand up straight.

Do any pro shooters lean backwards?
Probably.

Don't care about pro shooters who lean backwards.

WHY?

Cuz,
the ONLY thing I care about,
is the person I am working with,
and
the ONLY result I am looking for,
is the person I am working with, to shoot better,
to get BETTER results.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

jim p said:


> It seems that many are being told to stand straight and not to lean back. Why is this considered correct form? It feels natural to lean back and many top shooters lean back. Maybe these top shooters could shoot better if the corrected their form or maybe they are the exception to the rule.
> 
> I would appreciate some insight into this small piece of how one should be positioned for shooting.


Bottom line.

Develop any system you can,
to work with a shooter
and find out WHAT will make the groups FLATTER than ever before

and find out WHAT will make the groups SKINNIER than ever before.

Try this.
Then, try that.

AS a coach develops a better understanding of how the body works,
then,
there is MUCH less guessing about how to make a particular SHOOTER, 
after you get the confession about the medical history...

how to make the particular shooter, YOU are coaching,
to shoot FLATTER arrow groups,
to shoot SKINNIER arrow groups...

and
to STOP the dreaded HOLDING LOW.

So,
the BEFORE and AFTER FORM...

with ZERO CHANGES to the bow....

NADA,
ZILCH
ZERO tweaks to draw length.
NONE.

SAME exact bow draw length.

20 yards.



30 yards.



He was ready to sell his bow,
cuz HIS BOW was holding 12-INCHES low.

NOW,
with the NEW understanding of FORM,
and
his new secret weapon...

he now understands that a SHORT ATA bow,
there is NO POSSIBLE way for THIS shooter to have the string touch his nose...

cuz string touching his nose, for THIS shooter,
caused him to hold LOW 12-INCHES...

cuz for THIS shooter, string NOT touching nose
helps him to KILL nocks at 30 yards.



NEW secret weapon.

PS.

HOLDING low even 12-INCHES LOW,
is not target panic.

MANY times,
I have discovered that the ROOT cause
was a need to IMPROVE FORM.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

jim p said:


> It seems that many are being told to stand straight and not to lean back. Why is this considered correct form? It feels natural to lean back and many top shooters lean back. Maybe these top shooters could shoot better if the corrected their form or maybe they are the exception to the rule.
> 
> I would appreciate some insight into this small piece of how one should be positioned for shooting.


I don't teach "FEEL".
I don't teach "HOLD".

I teach only results.

There is no such thing as "YOUR ANCHOR".
There is the "anchor" a shooter is accustomed to.

Like string touching nose.

Then,
there is the "anchor" that a shooter is NOT accustomed to,
and FEELS weird,
and FEELS un-familiar.

Well,
if a shooter is using an anchor that FEELS weird, and FEELS un-familiar,
but
they take a leap of faith,
and test drive the NEW WEIRD form for say an hour,
at 2 yards,
like bowboysp...

bowboysp
will certainly get FAMILIAR with his new WEIRD form,
where he can now hold ROCK steady,
and kill nocks at 30 yards.

So,
forget FEELS good,
FEELS comfy
FEELS familiar

and focus more on the RESULTS
always trying to improve on RESULTS.

The FORM adjustments that deliver the RESULTS
for a wide range of body types,
for the 69 YEARS YOUNG shooter in Florida, who was also holding LOW...
who thought he had TARGET PANIC...
but it turned out to be just FORM, and 
massive changes (MUCH lighter on the front stabilizer weights, and MASSIVE changes to the side rod weight, and side rod angles)

(the 69 years YOUNG shooter also has shoulder issues BOTH sides...and several other things)
not TARGET panic,
DEFINITELY form issues,

and after just a 2 day seminar,
nailed the x-ring 4 times at 20 yards. No longer holding low any more.

For the AVERAGE JOE,
starting with a balanced amount of weight on BOTH legs,
CAN yield results.

That's why coaches, teach balanced form,
cuz we get RESULTS from shooters who try it.

Now,
if YOU get results teaching students,
if YOU can get a shooter to shooter a NEW personal best,
with the LEANING BACKWARDS style...

then,
by all means,
teach what works for YOU and your students.

But,
to say so and so pro shooter does THIS
and does THAT..

does it WORK with your student,
the one you are coaching?


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## rkumetz (Jun 20, 2014)

The choice of the garage door with horizontal lines was quite appropriate because it
accentuates the change in the bow arm.


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## jim p (Oct 29, 2003)

I don't coach anyone. Thanks for the explanation of why it is standard practice to teach standing straight and not leaning back. 

I think that many are leaning back to counter balance the weight of the bow being held at arms length. I have been told that Reo uses very heavy stabilizers. If he just stood up straight the stabilizer weight might cause a tip over.


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## [email protected] (Aug 29, 2014)

Everyones body is different... the distance from the release elbow to the shoulder blade and to the wrist... the length of the fingers... Degenerative disk disease in the back... Prior surgeries and injuries to shoulders.... (i've had 2 shoulder surgeries in the past 10years and have to rewrite my form script each time) Comfort and proper positioning of shoulders,arms elbows etc.. Finding what works for you is an individual thing and you have to have patience and not give up on things to fast... Most of all, your DL must be spot on for all this to come together, if your DL is even a fraction off, oftentimes we'll just be "chasing our tails" <I've been guilty of this over the years... With that said, I have to lean back just a fraction to make my body parts align properly.... It makes a huge difference for me! 
www.60xcustomstrings.com


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