# what advantage/disadvantage is there to "outer" or "over" nocks



## atjurhs (Oct 19, 2011)

I'm guessing there's probably little if any performance advantage, particularly at most folks shooting ability, but maybe I'm wrong?

so what would be the other advantage/disadvantage is there to "outer" or "over" nocks?

Todd


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## Bob Furman (May 16, 2012)

From others I've talked with, they prefer the out/over nocks because of the precision and one less part that could possibly be bent or slightly off as compared with a pin nock system. Some people like the design if the pin nock system since it offers better shaft protection.

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## Astroguy (Oct 11, 2013)

Visability ! The out nocks show up better and feel better in my opinion.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Advantage: they hold their alignment better than insert nocks due to the large diameter barrel being much stiffer than the small diameter insert.

Disadvantage: they are easier to Robin Hood as that same barrel effectively funnels arrows in.

I agree they are easier to see through the scope too.


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## caspian (Jan 13, 2009)

I'm sure the aerodynamics of an outnock are worse than that of a pin nock system.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

caspian said:


> I'm sure the aerodynamics of an outnock are worse than that of a pin nock system.


Are you sure? For decades now, the only nocks the Koreans would ever use were out nocks. I am sure Beiter lost count of how many world and Olympic records were set with them.


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## StarDog (Feb 17, 2007)

limbwalker said:


> Are you sure? For decades now, the only nocks the Koreans would ever use were out nocks. I am sure Beiter lost count of how many world and Olympic records were set with them.


Are they still using out nocks?


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## chrstphr (Nov 23, 2005)

Outnocks aid in putting your fletching in the same place on the shaft if fletching spin wings or similair vanes by hand. Pin nocks do not.

Pin nocks are stiffer than out nocks. Outnocks can make your arrow longer if needed for the clicker. Pin nocks make the arrow shorter. 

Other than that, not really much difference. I love outnocks, but cant get them to stop breaking so i shoot pin nocks. 

Most of the Korean recurve archers use out nocks. A few of the men shoot pin nocks. 

Chris


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## atjurhs (Oct 19, 2011)

are there outer nocks for MKII arrows other than Bieter?


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## grantmac (May 31, 2007)

Regular insert nocks (not pin) have been a lot less protective than outnocks on my VAPs. Neither takes a perfect rear hit well with the super sharp TopHat points (which are too sharp IMHO), but the outnock definitely protects better. It's also EXTREMELY easy to see them in flight, any sunlight at all lights them up like a tracer.

-Grant


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## caspian (Jan 13, 2009)

limbwalker said:


> Are you sure? For decades now, the only nocks the Koreans would ever use were out nocks. I am sure Beiter lost count of how many world and Olympic records were set with them.


Dr James Park has written that he is not in favour of the Beiter pin-out nocks for reasons of aerodynamics, and he favours g-pin nocks for this reason. I extrapolate from this to outnocks.

other effects such as one less fit tolerance may well play a counter factor against this, but nonetheless I can't see how having something wrt to the nock in the airflow over the arrow is an improvement in not having it.


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## Ar-Pe-Lo (Oct 16, 2011)

caspian said:


> Dr James Park has written that he is not in favour of the Beiter pin-out nocks for reasons of aerodynamics, and he favours g-pin nocks for this reason. I extrapolate from this to outnocks.
> 
> other effects such as one less fit tolerance may well play a counter factor against this, but nonetheless* I can't see how having something wrt to the nock in the airflow over the arrow is an improvement in not having it*.


Maybe it's not improvement, but maybe it's not important so other advantages prevail.


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## shogun90 (Jul 2, 2006)

grantmac said:


> Regular insert nocks (not pin) have been a lot less protective than outnocks on my VAPs. Neither takes a perfect rear hit well with the super sharp TopHat points (which are too sharp IMHO), but the outnock definitely protects better. It's also EXTREMELY easy to see them in flight, any sunlight at all lights them up like a tracer.
> 
> -Grant


Grant, what model outnocks are you using for the VAPs? are you using target VAPs?


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## atjurhs (Oct 19, 2011)

what brand/model fir with MKII shafts?


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## grantmac (May 31, 2007)

shogun90 said:


> Grant, what model outnocks are you using for the VAPs? are you using target VAPs?


The 5.5 on both my .800 and .600 with a little Teflon to make them fit tight. Very nice setup in my opinion. 

Grant


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## shogun90 (Jul 2, 2006)

grantmac said:


> The 5.5 on both my .800 and .600 with a little Teflon to make them fit tight. Very nice setup in my opinion.
> 
> Grant


Thank you Grant.


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## grantmac (May 31, 2007)

atjurhs said:


> what brand/model fir with MKII shafts?


There is a chart on the Beiter website which should give you the size you need. I believe they list the MK2 shafts in there. 
I had to get creative with the vaps. 

Grant


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## caspian (Jan 13, 2009)

Ar-Pe-Lo said:


> Maybe it's not improvement, but maybe it's not important so other advantages prevail.


the only possible advantages I can see in outnocks vs pins is a small difference in weight and on less fit tolerance. that may well make a difference on the scorepad at elite levels. for the rest of us who pay for their arrows, we're all better off with the rear impact protection a pin gives anyway.


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## theminoritydude (Feb 11, 2013)

caspian said:


> the only possible advantages I can see in outnocks vs pins is a small difference in weight and on less fit tolerance. that may well make a difference on the scorepad at elite levels. for the rest of us who pay for their arrows, we're all better off with the rear impact protection a pin gives anyway.


That is rather ironic considering the relatively lower probability of us making rear contact.


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## Ar-Pe-Lo (Oct 16, 2011)

theminoritydude said:


> That is rather ironic considering the relatively lower probability of us making rear contact.


Yes....I damaged 1 arrow in whole season with outnocks at 70m.


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## Neo888 (Feb 4, 2009)

Indoors i lost 3 arrows in 2 weeks with out nocks, so i changed to pins.


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## theminoritydude (Feb 11, 2013)

Neo888 said:


> Indoors i lost 3 arrows in 2 weeks with out nocks, so i changed to pins.


If you preferred the performance of your out-nocks, why don't you just use pins with it?


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## Neo888 (Feb 4, 2009)

You mean to put a pin at the end just to plug the rear of the arrow for protection and use out nocks? Hm, never thought about it, since it is not designed to use it like that....


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## theminoritydude (Feb 11, 2013)

Well, have you tried it?


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## midwayarcherywi (Sep 24, 2006)

Neo888 said:


> You mean to put a pin at the end just to plug the rear of the arrow for protection and use out nocks? Hm, never thought about it, since it is not designed to use it like that....


http://www.lancasterarchery.com/beiter-pin-out-nock.html?cmp=cel&trigger=ac

Beiter makes a pin out nock


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## Neo888 (Feb 4, 2009)

midwayarcherywi said:


> http://www.lancasterarchery.com/beiter-pin-out-nock.html?cmp=cel&trigger=ac
> 
> Beiter makes a pin out nock



Yep, this is what i use, but if i understand theminoritydude correctly he is asking why not use the original overnock with a pin at the end of the shaft....


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## Neo888 (Feb 4, 2009)

theminoritydude said:


> Well, have you tried it?


Nope, i never tried such combo, did you? What is your experience with it?


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## jg9020 (Mar 28, 2013)

A little of topic, but do I need to use the beiter nocking points with the beiter nocks?


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## midwayarcherywi (Sep 24, 2006)

Neo888 said:


> Yep, this is what i use, but if i understand theminoritydude correctly he is asking why not use the original overnock with a pin at the end of the shaft....


Well, I find his posts to be mostly as you've found them. Fairly incomplete and he believes himself to be clever.


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## midwayarcherywi (Sep 24, 2006)

jg9020 said:


> A little of topic, but do I need to use the beiter nocking points with the beiter nocks?


Not at all. I've used Beiter nocks for years and have never used a Beiter nocking point.


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## jg9020 (Mar 28, 2013)

midwayarcherywi said:


> Not at all. I've used Beiter nocks for years and have never used a Beiter nocking point.


What serving and how many string strands are you using?


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## midwayarcherywi (Sep 24, 2006)

The number of strands you use is not relevant. You have to serve to fit one of the two groove sizes Beiter makes. .088 and .098. These are the small and large groove nocks, respectively. I've tied nocking points with a variety of materials, including dental floss and a serving slightly larger than the serving on the string. 

Depending on the string material you are using, you can opt to use a variety of serving sizes to accommodate your nock. These days I make an 18 strand, 8125G string and Majesty .018 serving, to accommodate a large groove Beiter nock. I tie my nocks with a .023 Brownell serving. I hope that helps a bit.


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## jg9020 (Mar 28, 2013)

Well I might just give them a go


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## BobCo19-65 (Sep 4, 2009)

If Beiter makes the over nock for arrow that I am using, it is my first choice. However, I do not use the heavy colors as they will not show cracks as easy as a clear color will. As Chris mentioned, I have had a few break during the shot. But I believe they will usually show signs before a complete break occurs. I also usually use some Teflon tap depending on the tolerances.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Neo888 said:


> Yep, this is what i use, but if i understand theminoritydude correctly he is asking why not use the original overnock with a pin at the end of the shaft....


I have actually done this. I took a pin adapter for a Nano Pro, cut off the pin that would otherwise fit into a pin nock, filed it flat and then chucked the inserted portion of the pin adapter in my drill to turn the shoulder on a file so it would be slightly smaller in diameter than the shaft. Then I fit a Beiter Out Nock over it. 

It was an experiment to see if it would work, and what it would do to my tune. I found it too much trouble to be useful, but I also have 4 dozen Nano Pro shafts at my disposal. If I had only one dozen, I would either do this, or just use Beiter pin nocks to protect my arrows.


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## theminoritydude (Feb 11, 2013)

Neo888 said:


> Nope, i never tried such combo, did you? What is your experience with it?


I was trying to design a clean release nock, it involved using an easton out nock with a pin. It fits. Then I was informed by my wife, that some guys have been shooting around with this combination.

No, I have never shot long distances with it. I shot it at short distances to see how clean the release was for the modified nock. 

Which is why I asked you to try it. You never know.


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## theminoritydude (Feb 11, 2013)

I used an X10.


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## theminoritydude (Feb 11, 2013)

midwayarcherywi said:


> Well, I find his posts to be mostly as you've found them. Fairly incomplete and he believes himself to be clever.


I see you could read minds.


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## theminoritydude (Feb 11, 2013)

So anyway, as depicted, the Beiter out nock does not fully sit over the pin. If you're thinking of doing this, you'll have to reduce the pin length somehow. But that's all.


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## Neo888 (Feb 4, 2009)

Thanks for sharing.


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## Astroguy (Oct 11, 2013)

I would think the trouble to get the grain scale to match the weights of all the altered pins could be frustrating.

I did get some old stock Bohning AFC out nocks on Ebay for some old 1960 shafts. 1880, 1960, 2100 to 2400 are being sold for about a dollar per nock. They felt as if they were just made , and not their true age. They must have been stored well.


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## theminoritydude (Feb 11, 2013)

My colleagues used to say "What's one millimeter between friends?"


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## atjurhs (Oct 19, 2011)

it's fine, it's within an order of magnitude


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Beiter designed an in-out nock, then a pin-out nock, then a pin nock only to have us try and fit an out-nock over a pin. I'm sure Werner is looking down and shaking his head at us all right now.


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## theminoritydude (Feb 11, 2013)

Maybe he's looking up?


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## atjurhs (Oct 19, 2011)

how about someone other than Bieter? 

meaning is there another company that produces outer nocks for MKII shafts? 

I think this is the 3rd time I've asked the question and the discussion goes down another trail, which is ok, but I'd still like to get my question answered.


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## grantmac (May 31, 2007)

atjurhs said:


> how about someone other than Bieter?
> 
> meaning is there another company that produces outer nocks for MKII shafts?
> 
> I think this is the 3rd time I've asked the question and the discussion goes down another trail, which is ok, but I'd still like to get my question answered.


No....


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

theminoritydude said:


> Maybe he's looking up?


Clearly you never met the man.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

atjurhs said:


> how about someone other than Bieter?
> 
> meaning is there another company that produces outer nocks for MKII shafts?
> 
> I think this is the 3rd time I've asked the question and the discussion goes down another trail, which is ok, but I'd still like to get my question answered.


I don't think so. Easton and Cartel are the only other companies I know of that produce out-nocks. Easton's are actually their budget "Beman" out-nocks except for the Bemans they brand "Easton" and sell for their X-10's (and people buy them!). I wouldn't use any Cartel Out-nocks as I've seen the quality and was not impressed.


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## theminoritydude (Feb 11, 2013)

limbwalker said:


> Clearly you never met the man.


No I have never. Don't know about where he'd like to be when he's done with this world.


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## atjurhs (Oct 19, 2011)

thanks for your thoughts limbwalker! I won't buy any Cartel product, I just don't see quality in their stuff.

btw, maybe I'm the most unlucky archer as to destroying arrow shafts, but my shaft survival rate with pin-nocks is just about the same as with Easton G nocks.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Sorry to hear that. I continue to hear about people losing shafts with pin nocks, but I never have. I've gouged and bent a lot of pins, but still haven't lost an arrow. Can't say that for any other nock system I've used.


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## ThomVis (Feb 21, 2012)

Fellow archer at the club murdering his pin-nock:


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## Bob Furman (May 16, 2012)

atjurhs said:


> thanks for your thoughts limbwalker! I won't buy any Cartel product, I just don't see quality in their stuff.
> 
> btw, maybe I'm the most unlucky archer as to destroying arrow shafts, but my shaft survival rate with pin-nocks is just about the same as with Easton G nocks.


Maybe you just tune your bow too well? Lol. Tune your bow so your arrows fly just a small amount off and that should fix the problem. Lol



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## atjurhs (Oct 19, 2011)

oh Bob, I've got that "off impact tuning" too well tuned in 

might it could be that X10s hold up better than MKIIs when wearing pin nicks and hit from behind ?


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## Bob Furman (May 16, 2012)

Bob Furman said:


> Maybe you just tune your bow too well? Lol. Tune your bow so your arrows fly just a small amount off and that should fix the problem. Lol
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I747 using Tapatalk


Without a doubt. On many occasions I've had MKII's take a hit and gouge the pin nock insert. The shaft would get small cracks right near the insert. MKII"s were never designed to take much abuse, but speed.





atjurhs said:


> oh Bob, I've got that "off impact tuning" too well tuned in
> 
> might it could be that X10s hold up better than MKIIs when wearing pin nicks and hit from behind ?



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## caspian (Jan 13, 2009)

limbwalker said:


> Sorry to hear that. I continue to hear about people losing shafts with pin nocks, but I never have. I've gouged and bent a lot of pins, but still haven't lost an arrow. Can't say that for any other nock system I've used.


I have lost one shaft ever with pins, the second arrow hit dead on the end of the pin and drove it forward, fracturing the shaft. can't think how many pins I have blown up with zero damage.

the one time I ever used insert nocks I destroyed a shaft on the second arrow of the second end, and that was enough for me.


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## atjurhs (Oct 19, 2011)

maybe ACEs or ACCs hold up better than MKIIs ? because of their inner aluminum tube


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