# What to use for nock location on string?



## spangler (Feb 2, 2007)

Your initial guesses are correct. Brass points can tear up fingertabs faster and will also slow the string down, slightly changing the amount of energy delivered to the arrow and therefore the dynamic spine of the arrow.

Most people end up using tied on nocking points like you have there.

Andrew


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## Viper1 (Aug 21, 2003)

rat -

I've used everything out there over the last 40 something years, including a few things I'll bet some folks here are too young to have heard of (like shrink tubing).
The differences where more theoretical than real. IOWs pick one. 
I'm back with the crimp on knocking points, even if they aren't "cool".

During tuning, don't be afraid to use a good quality masking tape. I had a making tape NP on for several months a while back. It wasn't broke, so I didn't fix it.

BTW - I have NEVER seen a brass NP do any damage to a tab, assuming the shooter knows how to hook the string and IIRC they weigh 3-4 grains. 

Viper1 out.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

tie on dental floss and burnish the ends, or wrap sewing thread and soak it in superglue (what I use). It doesn't get any easier than that. Brass nocking points will change a tune significantly. I only use them if I have an arrow that's tuning weak, and I have no other options.


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## KenYeoh (Feb 21, 2010)

I'm on my way back from some time off the sport and dropped 4-5# so I'm using 2 brass nocking points to compensate for weak tuning


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## lksseven (Mar 21, 2010)

KenYeoh,

dropping 4-5# will cause your arrow to act stiffer, right? And weighting (slowing down) the string with dual brass nocking points will also cause your arrow to act stiffer. When you say "compenate for weak tuning", do you mean that you're compensating for _arrows_ that were 'too weak in spine' to tune well with your bow, and so slowing things down was required to match the bow to your arrows?


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## knotdodger (Oct 2, 2005)

Viper, I use the masking tape myself. Mainly in the winter. It only slips on me
in the heat of summer.... Thought I was the only one.. Getting ready to put some on 
right now, just made a new string. I like it when testing different things too. Quick to move.

I went 4 weeks last winter shooting every other day, and some times two tourny's in one 
weekend, and the tape did hold up good. I keep a little on my lower limb , trimmed the size
I like and ready to go in case of emergency .....


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## KenYeoh (Feb 21, 2010)

OOps, forgot to mention that I switched to a new, almost full-length arrow that is super-weak 
The brass nocks are temporary until I increase to my regular draw weight and cut down the arrow (have to do this from the back)
Did not want to cut down these arrows because I don't know how much I'll need to cut.


I also forgot to add that my tab has not suffered any kind of damage from the brass nocks.




lksseven said:


> KenYeoh,
> 
> dropping 4-5# will cause your arrow to act stiffer, right? And weighting (slowing down) the string with dual brass nocking points will also cause your arrow to act stiffer. When you say "compenate for weak tuning", do you mean that you're compensating for _arrows_ that were 'too weak in spine' to tune well with your bow, and so slowing things down was required to match the bow to your arrows?


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Shoot about 50,000 arrows in a year, and check that tab face again...  

Brass nocking points were definitely wearing a groove in my tabs back in 2003/2004, before I learned how to tie on NP's with sewing thread and superglue.


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## Steven Cornell (Mar 22, 2003)

limbwalker said:


> tie on dental floss and burnish the ends, or wrap sewing thread and soak it in superglue (what I use).


Darrell Pace always used dental floss. He would tell the kids in our club to use J&J mint floss. When they asked why, he would tell them "It makes the bow smell better".
I use dental floss and use the Krazy glue that has the brush in the bottle. One quick swipe and done. The more you do the faster you get at putting them on.


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## williamskg6 (Dec 21, 2008)

Viper1 said:


> BTW - I have NEVER seen a brass NP do any damage to a tab, assuming the shooter knows how to hook the string and IIRC they weigh 3-4 grains.
> 
> Viper1 out.


The brass nock points crimped on at a local archery shop on three out of three bows in my household had sharp edges/corners that were murder on our finger tabs, especially mine. It was so bad I took a file to them after I realized they were tearing up our tabs. Even after filing them they were still not especially kind to our finger tabs. 

I have since switched to the tied on nocks, using either 10 pound dacron kite line or 150 pound spectra stunt kite line. I think that 90 pound spectra stunt kite line would be ideal, but don't currently have any. No more shredded finger tab faces.


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## Viper1 (Aug 21, 2003)

Guys - 

In my original post, I basically said, it just flat of doesn't matter, and seems like some folks are making this into something more that it is.

I keep hearing about tab damage, and I'm having a little trouble buying it, for a couple of reasons. 

I'm assuming you guys are talking about the brass crimp on that goes over the arrow nock, not under, right? 

If your index finger is that close to the nock, the odds are good you're also pinching the arrow (finger spacer or not). Going to a tie-on NP may do nothing more than mask the problem. I teach people to start the draw with the middle finger lightly touching the arrow nock and the index finger 1/8" - 1/4" ABOVE the arrow nock. As the string angle becomes tighter, it will push the fingers together, but not enough to pinch the arrow or push the nock into your tab. That also assumes that you have the right size crimp-on nock for the string you're using (they come in three sizes) and that it was crimped correctly. It should form a near perfect circle, without jagged edges. 

The weight of the NP, about 4 grains, will effectively act the same as 4 grains on the arrow. Since you're tuning with the same NP, it should be a wash. If I needed the extra couple of fps, then I'd probably use tie-ons (again), loose a few strands in the string, and tune with a lower brace height - after finding the lightest arrow I could. 

Honestly, I don't make the brass nocking points (refuse to call them locators) nor do I have any stock in the companies that do. I just find them easier to use and adjust, and have no real down side, except for the last few fps. OK yes, they are more expensive than tie-ons ... 

Viper1 out.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

> In my original post, I basically said, it just flat of doesn't matter, and seems like some folks are making this into something more that it is.


Tony, you need to shoot a few more USAT ranking events against the top archers in the US (and the world) at 90 meters, and then you'll change your tune about the brass nocking points. 

They are old school technology. A rather "tool shed" approach that is outdone by simple dental floss or sewing thread.

Sorry old friend.


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## w8lon (Jun 2, 2012)

A friend of mine posted this on you tube a few weeks ago. An adjustable tied in nocking point, if not happy with your flight just wind it up or down to suit. Have put new nocking points on all my finger bows since learning this.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=1YlYqDiJN8U&list=UUyaIg_tK1I7c0l2SvLBV2Aw&index=1


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## Thin Man (Feb 18, 2012)

I use masking tape until I want to etch the nock point in stone. 

I've used the brass crimp-ons. If the crimping tool is decent and you're careful, you can get a pretty smooth mate on the opening. If not, you can gently file or sandpaper the area until smooth. 

Since I had more trouble getting them off than getting them on (??? go figure) I abandoned them in favor of serving thread. A few overhand knots alternating from side to side, a square knot to finish, cut, and flame the loose ends with a lighter to melt and then smack them flat with a finger (yes, on occasion I'll catch an irksome sting from this ... it's just like burning off the stick-outs when you serve the string). 

My coolest nock point to date is an amazingly deft and well-executed mini-serving. I made a nock point exactly as I would serve the string, except it was only about 1/4" long. I calculated it to perfection and it is indeed an elegant, svelte, precise feat of engineering of which I am quite proud. It should be pictured in a book. Really!

Unfortunately, it was so amazing and skillfully done that I have yet to be able to repeat my own high-barred prowess during the last several attempts on different bows, and have humbly resorted back to the more plebeian alternating overhand knot method. 

Squeeze, tie, tape, floss, rope, knit, or simply use a strand of the ulnar tendon's DNA if you desire ... for on the day your tuning changes (for whatever reason) you'll get to try out something different, anyway.


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## Thin Man (Feb 18, 2012)

W8lon, 

I tried to load the vid, but it wouldn't. Is that the one that (I believe) Rick did where the nock squeezes tight but you can crank it up or down with some effort?

I'm a bit skittish on anything adjustable. I was shooting a couple of months ago and was getting some irritating flight that seemed out of character from my usual irritating flight. After too many arrows and a lot of "huh?" thinking, in a moment of brilliant (though rare) insight, I reached down to my allegedly well-tied nock and gave it a twist. The durned thing was loose! I measured with my square and it had wormed up the string an eighth of an inch. First time that ever happened, and I'm shocked I actually figured it out so quickly (well, about 25 arrows quickly). 

Do you feel that particular adjustable nock is as solid and immovable under normal usage as it needs to be? Has one ever shifted on you accidentally?

It's definitely a neat nocker thingy and I bookmarked the instructions for reference. 

Thanks.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

> My coolest nock point to date is an amazingly deft and well-executed mini-serving. I made a nock point exactly as I would serve the string, except it was only about 1/4" long. I calculated it to perfection and it is indeed an elegant, svelte, precise feat of engineering of which I am quite proud. It should be pictured in a book. Really!
> 
> Unfortunately, it was so amazing and skillfully done that I have yet to be able to repeat my own high-barred prowess during the last several attempts on different bows, and have humbly resorted back to the more plebeian alternating overhand knot method.


I'm laughing my butt off here because I can totally relate to this.


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## Rick McKinney (Mar 4, 2008)

I have always used the brass nocking point. Top only. I did not use any nocking point below the nock. Just didn't need it. Most probably will but fortunately I did not. I mainly used the Saunders metal nock point. Some of the other ones were poorly made. As for old technology, you cannot beat metal for exactness. And the speed of setting one up is super quick and efficient. However, to each their own. You can use either the metal, Beiter's plastic, nylon thread, heat shrink tubing or anything else, but just make sure it stays where you put it. A nocking point only serves one purpose. To place your nock exactly the same place every time. Nothing more, nothing less. 

I watched Darrell having to re-serve his dental floss nocking point almost every other tournament during the event, so no, I was not impressed by us waiting on him to re-serve his nocking point in the middle of the tournament.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Figured that comment would root you out Rick... LOL! Maybe that was Darrell's advantage then? 

You were indeed lucky to only ever need a single nocking point above the arrow. I cannot tell you how many times I've had JOAD archers force the arrow down the string time and time again with their fingers until I finally put a lower nocking point on the string for them. So I just do it automatically now. 

I've had sewing thread and superglue nock points that have lasted years. In fact, the same ones I used on my bows in Athens in '04 are still on those strings, in the exact same place.

Dental floss does move a bit. It's easier to compress than sewing thread and superglue, which makes into a fiberglass-like ball once it's dried.

Why anyone would choose to put a piece of metal on their bowstring is beyond me, when there are far better options.


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## Thin Man (Feb 18, 2012)

Rick, 

Do you know what it is about your draw hand configuration that you do (or don't do) that negates the need for the second nocking point? Or is it just your "luck of the draw" that you never noticed the need?

Thanks.


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## Rick McKinney (Mar 4, 2008)

I tried them all and there is nothing that works as good and consistent over the years like a metal nocking point. But then again, I am old school and look for the simplest and most accurate way to shoot. I am simply amazed that people would rather tie on something that can move just by putting too much pressure against it like a threaded nocking point....John....


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## Rick McKinney (Mar 4, 2008)

I pinch my arrow rather tightly. My middle finger is pressed against the nock super snug and the top finger lies on the nock. So there is no way that arrow is going anywhere unless I let it. I put a lower nock point on to see if the impact of my arrows would be different and they were not, so I kept it off. Years ago I used to pinch my nock so tight that the arrow actually was bending down at full draw. however, I did not notice any performance difference so I left it alone. Unfortunately many people pinch the nock by cupping they fingers which causes the arrow to drop off the rest once the clicker clicks. I keep my fingers relaxed which keeps the shaft up against the plunger at all times.


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## w8lon (Jun 2, 2012)

ThinMan, yes it is the same one that Mr. Barbee posted on the wall. Works great and will not move unless you turn it to adjust. He is using a nail knot just like tying a leader to a fly-line. No issues with movement yet using .026 Halo as my nocking point.


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## Thin Man (Feb 18, 2012)

Thanks, W8lon.

I might give it a whack next time I tune a bow to see how it works out. Would be great for that purpose instead of re-taping masking tape during each adjustment. Then I'll get a feel for its stability. 

Thanks also, Rick, for explaining your nocking technique. I've heard of bending arrows before ... and that from wood shooters!


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Rick McKinney said:


> I tried them all and there is nothing that works as good and consistent over the years like a metal nocking point. But then again, I am old school and look for the simplest and most accurate way to shoot. I am simply amazed that people would rather tie on something that can move just by putting too much pressure against it like a threaded nocking point....John....


You obviously haven't seen my nocking points...Rick...  LOL. They ain't movin'.

The technique you describe reminds me of Frangilli. No finger spacer, fingers (or at least the tab leather "guards" he has) clearly touching the arrow nock. 

Lots of ways to skin this cat, there are...


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## Viper1 (Aug 21, 2003)

Rick -

There's a lot to be said for being old school. 

Thank you. 

John - 

I don't use a finger spacer either, but I am Italian, so there might be a connection there.
Good thing about friends, is that disagreements are accepted as just that, disagreements and nothing more. 

Viper1 out.


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## Sanford (Jan 26, 2009)

Tony, I don't buy your theory. I don't use a finger spacer and not Italian, either. 

Now, I have been seen "tying one on" before, but that's probably from the McGee side of the family


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## Rick McKinney (Mar 4, 2008)

John, one thing you are not short on and that is confidence.  Just because you can do the tie on thing decently does not mean everybody else can. As I said before, the metal nocking point (Saunders only) is the most accurate nock positioning tool out there bar none. 

Now, about that finger spacer and the Italian thing. I do not nor have I ever used a finger spacer (and McKinney is not even close to Italian). Never saw the need for it. With today's spacers like the Black Mamba design I probably would have tried using it, but the older ones just plain hurt the fingers and there was no advantage for me using them. Doesn't mean you should not use one, it is just that you can shoot some fine scores without them. The whole point is not to pinch the nock. Well, I rather liked pinching the nock to make sure that dude did not leave until I told it too. Again, it is up to the individual to try them with or without. Sort of like chocolate or vanilla.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

> John, one thing you are not short on and that is confidence.


Learned that from my archery mentor. He wrote a book once about Olympic recurve archery. You might have heard of him... 

Honestly, like I told Tony, this is a pretty minor issue in the bigger scheme of things. Brass can work fine. Usually it DOES work just fine, but every so often my students will get an unexplained high arrow that's caused by them pushing the nock down the string on release with their index finger. When I see this, I always check to see if they have one or two nocking points. Every time, it's because they only have one. 

The other issue is weight, but if you don't mind an extra 5-7 grains of weight on the back end of your arrow, then that's not a problem either...

Finger spacers... yes, the original Cavalier spacers hurt like hell. I covered mine with moleskin and then they came out with the newer delrin spacers, which still hurt, so I filed them down. The new spacers (solid metal ones) are much more comfortable, and made even more so by using the large rubber band cover, and even more versatile by being to add layers of plastic under that to increase the thickness either on top, or below, the spacer. Clever and simple idea that works great.


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## Viper1 (Aug 21, 2003)

Rick -

My issue with the finger spacer was a little different, and it actually taught me a lot. 

With "sorta" small hands, I usually have to carve the AAE Elite spacer a bit to fit and not contact the arrow. A number of years ago, I broke two spacers while shooting in about a month's time. Way too much hand tension and torque. I was getting that bent arrow thing you mentioned. Without the spacer, I could more easily feel when I was tightening up, and stop or reset. At some point I suggest that my students try shooting without the spacer, but like you said, it's optional, unless as in my case, where it wasn't.

Viper1 out.


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## Arcus (Jul 7, 2005)

Rick McKinney said:


> I did not use any nocking point below the nock. Just didn't need it.


Tony has been savaged by some folks on the Trad subforum for suggesting such a thing.


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## Rick McKinney (Mar 4, 2008)

I guess what I am saying about metal nock points versus string nock points or finger spacer versus no finger spacer or double nock points versus single nock points is that you really should try them all sometime just to see what works for you and what does not. I never used the double nock point because I didn't know any better in the early years but I shot all right. But when I heard why some used the double, I went home and tried it. I just tied on a bottom nock point and found no difference and since I have always been taught the principle of keeping things as simple as possible, there was no reason to have the second nocking point. One less thing to worry about. However, the point is that you should try all of the above suggestions and figure out what hole that you (probably a square peg) will fit into.


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## Rick McKinney (Mar 4, 2008)

limbwalker said:


> The other issue is weight, but if you don't mind an extra 5-7 grains of weight on the back end of your arrow, then that's not a problem either...


Actually it is rather relative since if you use the extra weight your arrow stiffens and it just might be enough to drop one arrow size. That will give you some extra speed. I find it interesting that when people go up in weight they hope for more speed but then they have to increase their arrow size which slows the shot down. The amount of increase is usually not equal to the arrow speed increase. However, another point is that it just might stabilize the string better due to the weight being on the string. This in turn stabilizes the arrow giving you a more forgiving shot.


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## Viper1 (Aug 21, 2003)

Rick - 



Rick McKinney said:


> I guess what I am saying about metal nock points versus string nock points or finger spacer versus no finger spacer or double nock points versus single nock points is that you really should try them all sometime just to see what works for you and what does not. I never used the double nock point because I didn't know any better in the early years but I shot all right. But when I heard why some used the double, I went home and tried it. I just tied on a bottom nock point and found no difference and since I have always been taught the principle of keeping things as simple as possible, there was no reason to have the second nocking point. One less thing to worry about. However, the point is that you should try all of the above suggestions and figure out what hole that you (probably a square peg) will fit into.


I've heard that theory before, may have mentioned it (almost verbatim) a time or two myself. 

One of the problems I see to day, and not just in archery, is a follow the leader mentality. 
Most of the stuff we see debated (repeatedly) can be tested pretty easily. 

Make a change, if your scores improve and stay there, or the shots are "easier" to execute, it's a plus.
If there's no change or things get worse, maybe not so good. 

Viper1 out.


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## ArtV (Jan 29, 2008)

I've always used metal nocking points...I guess 30 years or more. Never had one slip, always been the easiest way to adjust a nocking point for tuning arrows or when switch arrow size. I've never need a second nocking point except years ago I did do some string walking. A second nocking point was a necessity then.

I've had tons of problems with tied on nocking points.

Seems to me that a weight issue is mutt...after you tie on the nocking point and then saturate it wil supper glue I can't imagine much of a weight difference.

And, as far a tab problem....never. And I make hard contact with the metal nocking point.

Tie on's are great, but I've seen to many problems with them including movement, fuzzing out, broken strand that unravels, and need for replacement at inopportune times. But, I guess there are those who have the midis touch to get one to stay where you put it. Or not get the rolled over bottom edge.

I really feel the only difference between the two is personal preference. However, you can't argue with the elite shooters eh?...hmmmm OOPs Rick is one isn't he. Spoils that idea.


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## gster123 (Dec 17, 2012)

limbwalker said:


> sewing thread and soak it in superglue (what I use).


Same here, Turns into a solid plastic ball that is going nowhere.

Then again if you find something that works for you and is consistent then go for it.


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## julle (Mar 1, 2009)

Rick McKinney said:


> However, another point is that it just might stabilize the string better due to the weight being on the string. This in turn stabilizes the arrow giving you a more forgiving shot.


My mind always figured it was the other way around. The concentrated mass on the string amplifies all the vibrations, making the string oscillate more violently. I have no idea if this is true, but that's how I would see it act.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

I think the whole purpose of this thread is to lay to rest the idea in anyone's mind that archers are NOT O.C.D. 

ha, ha, ha.


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## midwayarcherywi (Sep 24, 2006)

Holy moly boys. That's a lot of ciphering about nocking point materials.


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## rat4go (Apr 14, 2011)

Kinda cool that I have the opportunity to ask a question and then have respected authors and former Olympians and a bunch of other smart guys chime in with great dialog on the subject and more than a few friendly jabs at each other. As a noob, the learning that AT affords is like drinking from a fire hose, but I am having a great time! Thanks guys!


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## elarock (Nov 15, 2012)

limbwalker said:


> tie on dental floss and burnish the ends, or wrap sewing thread and soak it in superglue (what I use). It doesn't get any easier than that. Brass nocking points will change a tune significantly. I only use them if I have an arrow that's tuning weak, and I have no other options.


+1

I was using brass in the beginning. then went to regular thread (upholstery thread from sewing store). Recently bought a $4 spool of Brownell #4 thread and tied 'em up, drop of Loctite and started shooting. Feels and shoots great and takes just a few minutes of my time.


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## ArtV (Jan 29, 2008)

limbwalker said:


> I think the whole purpose of this thread is to lay to rest the idea in anyone's mind that archers are NOT O.C.D.
> 
> ha, ha, ha.


LMAO you're probably right John..:laugh:


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