# Tiller tuning to help with vertical float



## ron w (Jan 5, 2013)

to some extent. a little more top limb pre bend might help. I would pull my sight in a bit and check my draw length first. sometimes you just have to shoot enough to develop the muscles tat work, also. another area to look at is vertical grip balance and is your bow hand fully relaxed and compressed to bone-bone condition. are you putting more pressure on the top of your grip than the bottom, or vise-verse?. is your grip sitting right on your hand ?. if your grip sits right,...on the pad below your thumb and your fingers off to about 40 degrees, it automatically puts the right vertical balance of pressure in your grip. if you are pushing with your bow hand at all, your hand will not be relaxed enough to compress to bone to bone condition and the bow will teeter-totter, on the tense pad of muscles, below your thumb.
these are the most common areas that cause vertical float to be as you describe. push from your bow arm shoulder, not with your arm and hand.


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## Donjr721 (Mar 25, 2013)

ron w said:


> to some extent. a little more top limb pre bend might help. I would pull my sight in a bit and check my draw length first. sometimes you just have to shoot enough to develop the muscles tat work, also. another area to look at is vertical grip balance and is your bow hand fully relaxed and compressed to bone-bone condition. are you putting more pressure on the top of your grip than the bottom, or vise-verse?. is your grip sitting right on your hand ?. if your grip sits right,...on the pad below your thumb and your fingers off to about 40 degrees, it automatically puts the right vertical balance of pressure in your grip. if you are pushing with your bow hand at all, your hand will not be relaxed enough to compress to bone to bone condition and the bow will teeter-totter, on the tense pad of muscles, below your thumb.
> these are the most common areas that cause vertical float to be as you describe. push from your bow arm shoulder, not with your arm and hand.


DL good, no muscle issue, when I miss, it's a little low. Float isn't too bad, I'd just like to tweak it a bit. I will definitely check what you recommended. 

Thanks for taking the time. You're awesome!!


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## bigHUN (Feb 5, 2006)

Sorry, I don't know your bow but listening conversations about Hoyt may we expect you have a cable stop and not a hard limb stop?
If yes then is similar to my bow. You already got some hints for vertical float, here it comes for vertical POI what you may find useful as well...
A creep tuning is a good start to tighten the vertical POI, I like to doit at 50 shooting a horizontal line, several dozens before doing any change), 
but again....
- where is your nock height in relation to center on string between Cam axles?
- where is your nock height in relation to shaft resting point?
- where is your resting point in relation to berger holes?
All these can effect the vertical grouping, maybe the cam timing is set in the way that the nocking point shall be lower or heigher for a hair for a given "over-draw" what we like to do with the cable stops. 
Let me explain this quickly....you think that your DL is let say 27.220" but when you put the bow in the draw board you will see the two cams touching in example at 27.085" but we got used to pull untill the holding weight of 22.5" and that is at the 27.350"....hope you can follow....also, once you pull harder let say 22.6 lbs once lighter 21.1 lbs next time 20.5 lbs holding weight, all these effects the vertical POI out there further you shoot more will be visible.
So, at the 27.350" (regardless if it is in the valley or before or beyound) the cams are "off" including the limb tips as well (we talk about our sensitive target limbs not some hunter rig limbs)....
Here the creep tuning can help more then speculating with limbs overload.....all depends how much of tools and time you have in front of you...
So the bottom line is, you already got to think about too many variables (in this your post) you can play with, and from our - AT'r view point it may be just a guess work to give an advise, totally thanksless....until you pinpoint where you want to go with it.


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## Donjr721 (Mar 25, 2013)

bigHUN said:


> Sorry, I don't know your bow but listening conversations about Hoyt may we expect you have a cable stop and not a hard limb stop?
> If yes then is similar to my bow. You already got some hints for vertical float, here it comes for vertical POI what you may find useful as well...
> A creep tuning is a good start to tighten the vertical POI, I like to doit at 50 shooting a horizontal line, several dozens before doing any change),
> but again....
> ...


I need to creep tune, just haven't taken the time to. I have the equipment to do so, I just got to do it. 

Thank you for taking the time to reply. I'm very appreciative. I wish I knew who all of the people that are on here, who have given me great advice so I could personally thank them if I see them in Louisville. Winning at Louisville is my ultimate archery goal right now. I know that if and when it happens , it will be in part due to all of the AT'ers who have taken the time to reply to one of my threads or questions.


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## N7709K (Dec 17, 2008)

peep height, shoulders, cam rotation and sync... look at those three first.


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## Joe Schnur (Mar 22, 2012)

Shoulder would be my first get your front shoulder down it will tighten all the float


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## bigHUN (Feb 5, 2006)

Donjr721 said:


> ...I need to creep tune, just haven't taken the time to. ...


Oh Man, that is #2 on the list when you first time warmed up with a nocked arrow on the string....right after frenchtune. You can't expect to score without these tunes...


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## bearhunt (Jan 16, 2008)

Is there an alternative to creep tuning? Ie. Tiller tune, arrow above or below Berger hole? Change of ata with bus cable?
My creep tune has the bow 1/4 inch advanced on the top cam, holding weight up 3 lbs and the valley pretty well nonexistent. I cannot relax in the valley or it is gone.


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## N7709K (Dec 17, 2008)

How are you creep tuning? Shots at top of valley and buried into wall? Or just one of the two.

Just because a rig is creep tuned doesn't mean it will shoot it's best scores and be the most forgiving; find where you shoot the bow best and leave it there


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## Donjr721 (Mar 25, 2013)

N7709K said:


> How are you creep tuning? Shots at top of valley and buried into wall? Or just one of the two.
> 
> Just because a rig is creep tuned doesn't mean it will shoot it's best scores and be the most forgiving; find where you shoot the bow best and leave it there


OP here, cam rotation and sync are spot on. Peep is good. I do question my old shoulders though. Surgeries on both in last 6 years. I lightened stab weight up tonight to 5 oz. seemed better. High in the x compared to normal. I shot 59x , 40 were inside out. The 5 came at arrow 59. Damn. I should've let down. I knew I should've. I didn't and it cost me. Lesson learned. I may try 6 oz up front to get the higher inside x's to middle. But only top 2 spots had the higher x's (inside top of x ring). 

My x count avg has came up 5 since I switched to new truball bt gold with click. Old stan was smooth. I'm liking the click. I'll get there with practice and all the great advice you guys give me. 
Thanks again for taking the time.


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## montigre (Oct 13, 2008)

In addition to the good advice you have already received.....So your am timing and sync are spot on and you're going to creep tune,,,that will resolve some issues, The comment about the shoulder pertains to how level they are to the ground while at anchor. If your shoulders (one or both) rise up (form collapses) your POI will be affected. Having had recent shoulder surgery means your body is going to want to attempt to "protect itself" by allowing one or both of your shoulders to collapse. As a person with recovering shoulders, you will need to make an extra effort to ensure both of your shoulders are in the proper position before beginning your execution. 

It would be nice to meet up with some peeps from this forum at L'ville!!


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## Donjr721 (Mar 25, 2013)

montigre said:


> It would be nice to meet up with some peeps from this forum at L'ville!!


We could wear name tags with screen name on them. Some of the people who have given me advice could really put on a clinic for sure


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## ILOVE3D (Feb 4, 2009)

montigre said:


> In addition to the good advice you have already received.....So your am timing and sync are spot on and you're going to creep tune,,,that will resolve some issues, The comment about the shoulder pertains to how level they are to the ground while at anchor. If your shoulders (one or both) rise up (form collapses) your POI will be affected. Having had recent shoulder surgery means your body is going to want to attempt to "protect itself" by allowing one or both of your shoulders to collapse. As a person with recovering shoulders, you will need to make an extra effort to ensure both of your shoulders are in the proper position before beginning your execution.
> 
> It would be nice to meet up with some peeps from this forum at L'ville!!





I know it's down the road but since I live out in AZ I'm not able to make L'ville but sure would live to meet up with some of you at Vegas if your going to attend in Feb. Being one that just hands around in the shadows mostly reading and trying to absorb as much as possible without opening mouth and removing any doubt about how little one actually knows about this sport I love so much.


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## N7709K (Dec 17, 2008)

i'll be in vegas for sure; KY is a maybe, kinda depends on how vegas goes...


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## ron w (Jan 5, 2013)

the point is, that tiller tuning puts the grip at a comfortable repeatable angle . of course, within reason of the tolerance the bow has, to shooting well with it's limbs in a slight bias of tension. it is that bias, that sets the vertical float range and speed. it gives the bow a dynamic preference for sitting at a specific attitude, when at full draw. because the grip of your bow is not the center of it's ATA, there exists a bias of forces between the top and bottom limbs that pulls on your bow arm. tiller tuning compensates for this bias and "evens the score", so to speak, between the top and bottom limbs and the grip location. creep tune after you set the tiller and you should have the bow at it's most forgiving arrangement. if your creep tuning puts the top or bottom cam radically out of time, look at your nock height. things have to be done in a specific sequence, in order for them to all work together. set your tiller first, then establish nock height, then creep tune. there may be some going back and forth between tiller tuning for hold and setting nock height, because tiller tuning moves the nock height around. when tiller tuning, don't pay any attention to where the arrows land at the target, get the hold float as small and slow as you can, then set the nock height to where it "should be"....then creep tune.
creep tuning does establish the most forgiving condition for the bow to operate, by establishing cam timing and synch with the riser in the attitude the tiller tuning established. thus, the importance of doing these tuning steps in the right succession. the only time creep tuning won't make the bow shoot the best for you, is if you don't do the creep tuning for yourself...... it is actually "tuning the bow to operate as good as possible in respect to your specific anatomical structure". a bow that's creep tuned for me, will not be the same as a bow that's creep tuned for you.
tiller tuning establishes the best riser attitude for your anatomical structure, creep tuning establishes the best condition of nock travel for the attitude tiller tuning established.
when you have found "where the bow shoots best for you"...as N7709K says,.... your bow is creep tuned.


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## aread (Dec 25, 2009)

Donjr721 said:


> ...when I miss, it's a little low......


Missing low is anticipation, not tuning. Focus on staying with the shot just a little bit longer, until the arrow is well clear of the riser.

Allen


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## montigre (Oct 13, 2008)

aread said:


> Missing low is anticipation, not tuning. Focus on staying with the shot just a little bit longer, until the arrow is well clear of the riser.Allen


I have to disagree with this--missing low is not always an indicator of anticipating the shot. Since the OP admittedly has blown out shoulders, one needs to also take into consideration that he is shooting one of the heaviest bows Hoyt makes and with a BHFS set up. 

If a little tiller tweak des not produce measurable results for him, he might want to consider, since he cannot increase the length of the front stab to add a weighted side bar to see if that does not help with the up and down bobbing he's seeing. However, he is going to have to very carefully balance this with the overall mass weight of his bow, because he simply does not have a lot of play room with his bad shoulders. 

Or he can try to raise his nocking point just a little to alter the force vectors being applied during his draw cycle--in essence, boosting the effect of advancing the top cam a little.


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## bearhunt (Jan 16, 2008)

N7709K said:


> How are you creep tuning? Shots at top of valley and buried into wall? Or just one of the two.
> 
> Just because a rig is creep tuned doesn't mean it will shoot it's best scores and be the most forgiving; find where you shoot the bow best and leave it there


Sorry it has taken so long to get back. I have shot it what I call a variety of levels, as soft ( top of valley) and as as hard as I could (waiting for strings to break) and everywhere in between. vertical grouping was minimized with the top cam 3/8 or more advanced, but at this setting there is no way to test soft setting as the transition between valley and gone was not there. It did not have vertical stringing between normal and super hard. 

But bow is a bear, tough to shoot it like this for 10 ends of vegas and fita rounds of144 arrows. I have since retuned, set tiller to zero, (always shot through middle of Berger hole and 90* for arrow /string). I now have the valley back but am getting fliers. Any next step suggestions?
Oh it it likes to hold low too.

Bear


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## Donjr721 (Mar 25, 2013)

montigre said:


> I have to disagree with this--missing low is not always an indicator of anticipating the shot. Since the OP admittedly has blown out shoulders, one needs to also take into consideration that he is shooting one of the heaviest bows Hoyt makes and with a BHFS set up.
> 
> If a little tiller tweak des not produce measurable results for him, he might want to consider, since he cannot increase the length of the front stab to add a weighted side bar to see if that does not help with the up and down bobbing he's seeing. However, he is going to have to very carefully balance this with the overall mass weight of his bow, because he simply does not have a lot of play room with his bad shoulders.
> 
> Or he can try to raise his nocking point just a little to alter the force vectors being applied during his draw cycle--in essence, boosting the effect of advancing the top cam a little.


I took your advice. I lightened up the front stab , added a side bar with 3oz coming back more than to the side. Hold is way better. 

Thank you, thank you, and thank you!!


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