# Bow drops out the bottom while adding pressure to fire hinge?



## montigre (Oct 13, 2008)

Scores in the 270s for a half are very respectable!! Nice work!! 

Your issue could also be the back shoulder causing this some. But more likely than not it's your hooter shooter timed bow... The machine cannot replicate YOUR grip and the pressure YOU exert during execution no matter what. 

What I suspect may be happening is since the bow was not creep tuned (in your hands), you're applying differing degrees of pressure to the wall while executing the shot causing the back shoulder to occasionally ride up and pull the sight down off the dot. Not having the bow tuned to you has removed any added measure of forgiveness it could provide you.


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## cgchris99 (Apr 10, 2003)

So you're saying creep tune the bow? This could be interesting trying to do this while shooting a hinge. I haven't had any issues with unexplainable high & low shots but just with the dot dropping low.


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## Ned250 (Aug 10, 2009)

cgchris99 said:


> My problem is occasionally *while adding pressure to get my hinge to fire*, the pin will dive low out the bull.


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## montigre (Oct 13, 2008)

cgchris99 said:


> So you're saying creep tune the bow? This could be interesting trying to do this while shooting a hinge. I haven't had any issues with unexplainable high & low shots but just with the dot dropping low.


Yes, creep tune. Done with a hinge just as you would with any other release--takes a little more finesse with spirals, but you won't have that issue with your Fanatic. 

I'm not talking about highs and lows of your arrows, I am talking about some things that can cause your back shoulder to "occasionally" raise up when pulling into the wall.... :wink:


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## RCR_III (Mar 19, 2011)

My suggestion is creep tuning as well. 

You also may not be adding pressure when you fire the hinge like you think. You could be collapsing and this loss of alignment and muscle tension causes you to drop out low too.


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## Lazarus (Sep 19, 2005)

I believe there is merit to the "Thing A Week" video as well as the other suggestions. I still maintain that the number one cause of this phenomena is gravity. It's just not natural to hold that much weight up on an extended arm, and it takes *WORK,* lots of it, to be able to do so. Couple that with the concept of shooting a relaxed shot and the natural tendency is going to be for the bow to work it's way downward. Plus, you get just a little bit lazy........same thing happens. 

.02


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## bsp5019 (Oct 1, 2007)

Lazarus said:


> I believe there is merit to the "Thing A Week" video as well as the other suggestions. I still maintain that the number one cause of this phenomena is gravity. It's just not natural to hold that much weight up on an extended arm, and it takes *WORK,* lots of it, to be able to do so. Couple that with the concept of shooting a relaxed shot and the natural tendency is going to be for the bow to work it's way downward. Plus, you get just a little bit lazy........same thing happens.
> 
> .02


I agree with this.


Sometimes I know that for myself, that if I am not shooting a powerful shot, or I get tentative, or I do not hold enough pressure against the wall with my back muscles while running my firing engine, I will cost down from the ten ring to the bottom of the nine. However, If I shoot a powerful shot, and I have the right pressure and am not weak, the pin does not drop at all.


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## field14 (May 21, 2002)

Creep tuning and all that does no good if your FORM is off, period! You can do what you want with all the fanagling with equipment and stabilization and all that, and spend a fortune, only to....continue to shoot low or have the sight drop out the bottom!
Cannot believe that shooters will look for a band-aid and spend money...and never come to terms with FORM.
GRIV's TAW #8 and also #7 are excellent and get to the crux of the problem.
IMHO another HUGE problem is the same thing and deals with gravity as mentioned above..IMHO people today think MORE mass weight is automatically better. It is so silly...the shooters (especially bowhunters) asked for "lighter mass weight" for bows and got it. Then they spend addition money, up to $600 or more to INCREASE the mass weight of their bows! Trying to hold 8, 9, 10 or even 11 POUNDS of mass weight out on the end of your arm is going to cause DAMAGE to your joints as well as fatigue you out quickly! The surgeons are getting rich from this, too and shooters are either having to lay off shooting for a few days to "heal up", have surgery to repair the damage, or even have to stop shooting all together! You don't NEED all that mass weight out there to shoot well, but of course, because "more is better" in archery and SOME of the pros shoot a lot of MASS WEIGHT, then everyone jumps on the band wagon and those selling the weights, stabilizers, connectors and the like for high dollars are getting rich off the band-aids. FORM is the key, not spending big bucks on all the paraphernalia you can possibly hang onto your bow.
field14 (Tom D.)

field14 (Tom D.)


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## Lazarus (Sep 19, 2005)

field14 said:


> You don't NEED all that mass weight out there to shoot well, but of course, because "more is better" in archery and SOME of the pros shoot a lot of MASS WEIGHT...........


Guilty as charged. I just, finally, figured out yesterday why I have had a HORRID, *HORRID* summer of shooting. I have battled trying to shoot as much weight this summer as I did last winter indoors. Then at Decatur last week I continued to shoot far under my ability level, while watching a lot of people shoot bars with very minimal weight and shoot it very well, at that point the light bulb is going on. Took three days off from shooting. Yesterday I stripped everything off my bow and shot a couple of ends, shot as well or better than I have all summer with no bars or weight, so I ended up with a whole lot different weight distribution and setup today than I shot last week by taking at least a pound off the bars. And, wait for it, here is comes........*no low bob,* a whole lot quicker shot,less bow torque because there isn't a pound of weight pulling down and back on a 16" stick, and less fatigue.

Nobody could have told me this and made me believe it though. The pain of staying the same just had to exceed the pain of changing (and admitting I might have been wrong about all the weight.)


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## field14 (May 21, 2002)

Lazarus said:


> Guilty as charged. I just, finally, figured out yesterday why I have had a HORRID, *HORRID* summer of shooting. I have battled trying to shoot as much weight this summer as I did last winter indoors. Then at Decatur last week I continued to shoot far under my ability level, while watching a lot of people shoot bars with very minimal weight and shoot it very well, at that point the light bulb is going on. Took three days off from shooting. Yesterday I stripped everything off my bow and shot a couple of ends, shot as well or better than I have all summer with no bars or weight, so I ended up with a whole lot different weight distribution and setup today than I shot last week by taking at least a pound off the bars. And, wait for it, here is comes........*no low bob,* a whole lot quicker shot,less bow torque because there isn't a pound of weight pulling down and back on a 16" stick, and less fatigue.
> 
> Nobody could have told me this and made me believe it though. The pain of staying the same just had to exceed the pain of changing (and admitting I might have been wrong about all the weight.)


The advertising hype about stabilization, weight and balance is overstated, at least in my opinion. Don't NEED to have 8-11 pounds of MASS weight hanging out all over the place in order to shoot well. For myself, I have found that I do NOT hold or steady any better at all with a side-bar/counter weighting, v-bars and all that snot hanging off my bow; in fact, the hold gets WORSE instead of better. Sad thing is that I have that crap and I'm not using anything on my bows but a single long stabilizer with 1.5 ounces out on the tip. I still have the v-bar bracket mounted, but only because I'm too lazy to take it off completely.
Lotsa hype with this...and yet, you don't see those scores of the top pros any higher now with all that crap hanging from their bows than you did 5 or even 10 or 15 years ago when they didn't hang all that crap off their bows!
In fact I know of one of the best of the best that in certain situations REMOVES weights from the bow's stabilization system and shoots just as well, if not better without them. Why? I surmise it is because under high pressure moments, once a large mass starts moving, it REALLY gets to moving and fouls him up; so he gets rid of it in order to settle him back down!
And the beat goes on, the beat goes on....

field14 (Tom D.)


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

Lazarus said:


> Then at Decatur


Decatur where, Illinois?


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

field14 said:


> The advertising hype about stabilization, weight and balance is overstated, at least in my opinion. Don't NEED to have 8-11 pounds of MASS weight hanging out all over the place in order to shoot well.
> field14 (Tom D.)


For me, true. I thought I wanted a bit over 8 pounds and after shooting my bow a while found I was suffering. So my MX2 was down to about 7 1/2 pounds when I sold it. My MarXman I've had since 2012. I first shot it with just the 30" stab and maybe 2 1/2 ounces up front and added a Bowjax Maxjax. Later, I went with a Bernie's Mini Silencers fully weighted and really, there wasn't much if any change. Later, I went with a 10" back bar and 6 ounces in addition to what I had up front. Took a bit of adjustment, subtracted some from the front, and the bow was shooting just like always, great. On a whim, I took off all on the back and a bit of sight adjustment had the bow shooting sweet as ever. 

I think I've pointed it out before. Levi Morgan, Jeff Hopkins and Tim Gillingham are big enough to play Pro Football. That they are big they can handle more weight.


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## Lazarus (Sep 19, 2005)

Sonny. Alabama. USA Outdoor Target Nationals.


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## ILOVE3D (Feb 4, 2009)

For me, part of the problem of dropping out the bottom was my hinge was set up incorrectly and took too long to get it to go off. The longer I hold regardless of the type of release, the more effect gravity has on pulling the bow and thus the sight dropping out the bottom. I shoot better when I acquire my sight picture, where I want to hit before I draw back then of course I am on target earlier and can start my firing engine or shot process earlier thus keeping the pin on or in the spot. Keep in mind, if something, anything is not right, I need to let down and take a break and start over.


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## montigre (Oct 13, 2008)

field14 said:


> Creep tuning and all that does no good if your FORM is off, period! You can do what you want with all the fanagling with equipment and stabilization and all that, and spend a fortune, only to....continue to shoot low or have the sight drop out the bottom!
> Cannot believe that shooters will look for a band-aid and spend money...and never come to terms with FORM.
> 
> field14 (Tom D.)


Tom, I'd agree with you 100% *if* the OP had stated that he constantly dropped out the bottom or if he were only shooting 255ish halves, but that is not the case. Since he only occasionally drops low and he's averaging very respectable 70 halves, I was less prone to jump on the form bandwagon right away. Although he may have some form thing going on, I doubt this is the root of his stated problem and the more logical cause may be execution related. 

One of the quicker permanent fixes (can we say non-bandaid) would be to make sure his equipment is as forgiving as possible to allow a bit of wiggle room for those times when he might be getting lazy, tired, or distracted from his task at hand during his execution and changing the amount of pressure he's applying to the wall causing the low dips.

Never did I advocate the OP use additional weight to resolve his issue. Far too many people on here dump tons weight on their bows without taking into consideration their current physical condition, their holding weight, draw weight, and style of shooting and then wonder why they do not recover as quickly from a shooting session or even need to take days off to recover...duh. 

If properly balanced, a somewhat heavier bow is much more stable and actually assists the shooter to hold the added weight steadier without undue stress on the joints. With today's more technologically advanced and aggressive systems, this can and has proven to be a boon to the sport. However, if the system is not completely balanced, the chance for significant injury is greatly increased.

Just because some Pros can carry a lot of weight on their bows, does NOT mean the average or above average part-time shooter can do the same. They have taken decades of very dedicated practice to be able to accomplish this--time most of us really do not devote to the sport....


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## redman (Feb 22, 2003)

My outdoor bow is 7.2 lbs all rig up with stabilizers and sight . I doint like a super heavy bow 
when you are holding up that all day on hills it is just to heavy for me. Light mas weight bow work for me to heavy does not work for me 
I think every one thinks they are Reo Wild . I think if every one worked no getting the draw length and let off right it would be better then spending time with stabilizer weight..


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## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

My suggestion to you is to spend a few days working on back tension preload in your shot routine, to do this is a very simple addition to your shot routine and it happens before your pin even reaches the spot you want to hit.

As you come to anchor and settle into your peep simply squeeze your back tension muscles while your pin is moving to the spot and squeeze into the wall a little so that you are not just sitting in the valley barely touching the wall. I will feel like you have pulled into the wall about a 1/8 of a inch but I don't really thing this is a fact rather just a feeling. Anyway, it feels awesome and for me has reduced my float along with eliminated dropping out the bottom and feeling weak. It makes me feel way stronger during the execution and the pin never never never feels like it is wanting to drop out.


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## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

Secondly I would suggest making sure that you aren't using a high grip pushing into the grip with the top of your hand, to me this is another area that can cause the bow to feel like it wants to fall out the bottom and then you spend way to much mental effort to battle this sensation. So by simply using a low grip where the bow settles into the bottom of the grip you can help eliminate the sensation of a bow wanting to drop out.

Now for me when I am using back tension preload into the wall I can basically use any grip that I want and it makes me so strong in my shot that a neurtal or high grip still doesn't drop out but the feeling that it migh drop out is there and for me dealing with this stress isn't worth it. Using a low grip along with back tension preload will eliminate this sensation.


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