# Grouping..What is enough?



## CritterGitter (Mar 16, 2005)

*Hows about this*


----------



## Dannyd (Apr 27, 2005)

Apparently I have way more work to do than I thought


----------



## chucky (Mar 11, 2005)

*Groups*

If you can hit a plate the size of a dessert plate say 4-5" across at 20-30 yrds then your fine. Out to 40+ yards if you can hit a regular size paper plate then your doing fine cause every shot on a paper plate will be a whitetails lungs so it would do the damage needed.


----------



## CritterGitter (Mar 16, 2005)

Danny I didn't mean to imply that you should be shooting that tight, that pic is of one of my "Good Days" but if you can keep'em inside of 5-7 inches @ 30 yards you'll be fine.


----------



## Dannyd (Apr 27, 2005)

That appears a lot more realistic than the bag in the above picture. At least to me anyway


----------



## Dannyd (Apr 27, 2005)

Thanks critter. I wasn't sure I'd be able to do that at 3 yards no less 30


----------



## CritterGitter (Mar 16, 2005)

You practice enough and you'll be surprised at what you can do.

Once you start shooting (and allowing the addiction to take hold) I'll bet you'll find some nice groups on your targets.


----------



## yoda4x4 (May 11, 2004)

Dannyd,

I'm assuming you are just starting out by the tone of your comments. Trust me when I say this as I just started last year. With practice, you will be able to regularly hit the target at 20 yds as the picture above shows. It's all in the way you practice and doing it regularly. Plus, once you have your bow tuned and you trust it and yourself, you'll be there in no time.

Good luck,
David


----------



## ex-NFO (Sep 20, 2003)

I would start working toward the "2 inches per 10 yards" rule when shooting at targets. That's 4" at 20 yards, 6" at 30 yards, etc. Pretty much any decent compound bow will be more accurate than the person shooting it, but that's probably a pretty good goal for hunting.

Once you get that, then work toward 1 inch per 10 yards.


----------



## SpotShy (Mar 14, 2005)

I have to chime in here because of the post made by Chucky. Nothing personnal but that was some pretty poor information to give to a novice! First of all in no way shape or form is the pie plate analogy fit for use with bowhunting. Too many variations and scenerios results in this analogy being a wounded animal. If I had my way, no one should hunt deer with a bow and arrow unless they could consistantly put six arrows in a group no larger than an area that would accomodate six arrows. Then it should be law that at any distance where this group widens, the hunter should consider that range to be an ineffective range. Year after year I hear of all these wounded animals left unclaimed. The reason for this is that many so called bowhunters are part-timers that pick their bows up a week before the season, shoot at 20 yds at a pie plate, from the ground, hit the plate 4 out of six times and say, "good enough, deer have a big kill zone"! Fooey! Then when they get in a tree stand, misjudge the yardage by 5-10 yds, make the shot with their heavy weight coveralls on, in low light, in windy conditions, and while the animal is on full alert, they make a pitiful shot that many times results in the animal suffering. I'm no animal activist but by God they deserve better than that! 

Danny,

Don't settle for mediocracy. Practice your butt off, get the groups as tight as you can. Knocking nocks off isn't good enough. Then progressively back up and acheive the best results you can at further distances. When the group starts to spread, be man enough to admit, "I'm not effective enough at that range" and limit your shot to the ranges where you have proven yourself effective. Also practice like you hunt. Wear the clothing you hunt in, out of tree stands if you plan to hunt from them, in weather conditions that are likely to be present, and in lighting conditions that occur in the field. Also practice on 3D targets and get to understand impact angles in conjunction to vital locations. I promise if you put forth the effort to be the best shot you can and understnd your limitations you will become a good bowhunter and a happy bowhunter. Realize that even after you put in all the time and effort, conditions and all the possible interferences that can occur may result in a poor hit. However, you will be able to sleep at night knowing you did all you could to prepare. 

Sorry for the rambling, and I hope I didn't offend anyone too much, but this sport is near and dear to my heart. I want to do what I can to keep the sport out of the gutter and prevent bad PR for us that love it.

Rick


----------



## thenson (Mar 23, 2004)

*Form First, Grouping Second !!!*

My advice would be to fight the urge to become a groupy for a while. I'm trying to help a friend learn to shoot and I started him at about 10 feet and told him to not even aim except to hit the bag target.

I tried to tell him to just work on form. To get comfortable, establish a comfortable anchor point and get used to the feel of a surprise release.

I would suggest reading the book "Idiot Proof Archery" by Bernie Pellerite if you can. Punch in "http://www.robinhoodvideos.com/" on the internet and check out his book.

Bernie talks about shooting at a bail or something with no target to aim at, for weeks before you begin to learn about the "aiming" process.

Then judge yourself on the "shot process" before you learn the "aiming" process. Grouping goals will need a personal decision, depends on what you want to do. The advice about being able to hit the kill zone from all angles in all conditions is good advice if you plan is for hunting. Target training would be an entire different story.

My advice would be to learn properly with the goal of having fun. If fun can be achieved by hitting a plate, then fine. If you are a perfectionist, target minded geek, your goal would be to get so good you would be nuts to shoot 2 arrows at the same thing.

Lots of advice, some good, some not. Read a book, talk to people, read this forum and let it all digest. The direction and how far you go, is up to you, but remember the goal, Have Fun.

Don't Worry, Be Happy !!!


----------



## Zen Archery (Jul 27, 2004)

Depends on what you are hunting for?

Small game and varmints you need to keep your groups as tight as possible unless you can spend the money on lost arrows.
For most N. American Game a 3-5" will give you enough. As for distance it really is up to you and your comfort zone. Each person will have their own point blank range zone. I would also encourage you to keep stepping out. The farther you shoot the farther you point blank range will be.
It also depends on what part of the country you are from here in Texas we have the thickets where most shots will be under 20 yds. You also have West Texas where 40 yds is a standard shot.

O! by the way when people post pictures of their groups. You do not see the other 100 arrows it took to get to that point. I gave up on target spots when preparing for hunting season and hit the 3D animals. I would encourage you to do the same. It will boost your confidence knowing your getting double lung punches from various distances and vantage points.


----------



## CritterGitter (Mar 16, 2005)

Zen Archery said:


> Depends on what you are hunting for?
> 
> 
> 
> O! by the way when people post pictures of their groups. You do not see the other 100 arrows it took to get to that point. I gave up on target spots when preparing for hunting season and hit the 3D animals. I would encourage you to do the same. It will boost your confidence knowing your getting double lung punches from various distances and vantage points.



YUP! Like I said it was one of my good days, Why doo ya think I took a picture of it


----------



## cloquet (Jan 12, 2004)

Don't shoot groups at all. Put many one or two inch paint spots on your target and shoot one arrow at each one. You will know how well you are shooting and you won't be hitting your arrows. Why break them for nothing? After only a short time shooting at one aiming point even a new archer will ruin arrows. :wink:


----------



## *red-ranger* (Nov 14, 2004)

*groups and consistancy*

why shoot at a bale with no target, you will never know how your progressing,and if your form is bad how do you know cuz there is no target to look at. start at 10 yards and work your way out to 40, not many deer are taken beyond 40 yds, I shoot groups to watch for consistancy, sure you shoot at 1 spot long enough and you will robin hood an arrow or two, but when you start getting to that point then shoot a 5 spot when deer season is close start to shoot at 3-d targets because it is a whole lot different than a bag you can shoot under a 3-d deer but not on a bag, just think about a softball size group weither at 20 or 40 that is a kill zone


----------



## heavyarrow (Jun 21, 2003)

I feel that 4" at whatever your maximum range is should be your goal. Being a new bowhunter I think regardless of your accuracy, you should keep your shots under 25 yds.


----------



## Dannyd (Apr 27, 2005)

I have a good understanding of making sure I can make a humane kill on an animal. My daughter and I took up hunting with a gun last year. we each had shot 2000+ rounds prior to even trying to hunt. We wanted to make sure we knew where the bullet was going rather than "flinging" bullets at these wonderful animals. We both only got one shot off each last year but both resulted in clean, quick kills. We passed on many deer that others thought we were crazy to pass on. In our eyes either the angle was wrong, or we had not practiced that type of shot. Reading these type of forums helped us a great deal.
Now my daughter (12 years old) asked if we could also learn bow hunting. By, the way that's how the gun hunting started too. She asked if she could go hunting with her friend. The answer was "no, but let's learn this hunting thing together and we will see what happens" 
I was able to put in a lot of time to get an understanding of good shooting form with the gun, understanding balistics, and shot placement etc. 
Now I have to learn all of that with the bow. For some reason the tuning part is scaring me a little. Maybe it's because there are so many posts that show people having many problems with this. 
I have purchased my bow and as soon as I can afford to I will purchase hers. Neither one of us will hunt with them until we have put in the practice that will make us as comfortable as we are with the rifle. The ranges will be much shorter but it is all relative. 
The information here on this web site has already been great. I'm sure i'll have many many questions soon..tuning, what bow for my daughter?, targets, etc. so bear with me.


----------



## SpotShy (Mar 14, 2005)

Pie plates, softball size, 3-5" groups, practice without a target?  I'm sure some of you really are good shots and possibly seasoned successful hunters, so why not consider all the external stimulus that can make pie plate, softball, and 3-5 inch groups turn in to gut shots when giving a novice advice? I was taught to aim small and miss small. If I can't keep my arrows in a 1" dot at 20 yds, I put in more time before shooting at animals. Too many folks have the mind set of aiming at an area when shooting game animals. "Just put it behind the front shoulder and let it eat!" No, pick a spot such as a cetain tuff of hair, focus on that and hit that! I can't tell you how many times during the season, while standing in the bow shop, I hear these guys saying, "Nope, not yet but I gigged a few" or "Couldn't get him in any further than 40 yds, so I let one fly!" :angry: These are the same characters that never break 200 at the local 3D shoots in the bowhunter novice class and never shoot their bow past 30 yds. Also, what is the deal with folks always saying, "All I plan to do is bowhunt!" Maybe I'm in the minority here, but too me a bowhunter should strive to be as or more accurate than a target archer relevant to the equipment being used. There is a whole bunch more at stake when shooting at flesh and blood, than punching paper or foam. I'll climb down now and won't distract anymore with my opinion.


----------



## Brown Hornet (Aug 8, 2002)

Very well said SpotShy. I couldn't have said it better myself. :wink: 

Most target shooters started shooting targets because they liked shooting and wanted to become better shots for bowhunting. 

As for the original ? the answer is never.


----------



## Steel Magnolia (Jan 2, 2005)

I started out the same way with a Browning recurve. Once I got hooked on improving the accuracy, I moved up to compounds. Now I shoot everyday and still can't get enough. My shooting finally reached 300s and now I just switched over to BT. Still can't get enough.

WBM


----------



## thenson (Mar 23, 2004)

*There is more than one way, to skin a cat !*

Sorry to the cat lovers...

There are probably as many approaches as there are opinions, that doesn't make some approaches good and others stupid...

Bottom line is that "Archery" can be fun. If you go at it with an objective, then you can find the methods that help you meet the objective you have. If you have an objective and can't get close, then it becomes frustrating.

Some people are totally focused on hunting and anything remotely related to or directed toward target shooting seems stupid to them. Well I also know people that are totally focused at target shooting. Even thought they shoot at 3d targets (of animals) they have "NO" interest what-so-ever in killing anything, but yet they have great fun and are very dedicated to their form of archery.

I have yet to try things like the Olympic archery, but bet it would also be great fun and would require an entire different set of tools and methods for me to compete.

I just don't think it shows good taste when a novice-fellow archer wants to understand what a good group is to shoot for, for us to begin slamming others like "OUR" method is the only right method and all others are ignorant.

Whether you choose pie plates, softballs, kill zone, tuft of hair or a flying gnat, it doesn't matter if leads to improvement and you enjoying your sport.
The better I get, the more I want to learn, the more I learn, the more I see that things that were once invisible to me, now are my biggest problem.

Study archery, don't accept everything you hear, watch those a little better than you and learn one thing at a time, practice, practice, practice - - - get the mechanics down, then learn to aim. Once you get to a point, you will realize that you are capable, your equipment is capable, but you brain will get in the way. Then it becomes mostly a mental game.

Good Luck and most of all, enjoy it.

thenson


----------



## Dannyd (Apr 27, 2005)

Brown Hornet
I also felt never was a good answer in terms of always wanting to improve. But at some point a certain size group is " acceptable" to attempt to hunt whitetail. If not, then you would never get to hunt. 
My personality will not allow me to accept that the best I can do is 4-5" groups. I will always want and work to get better. My question was more looking for a guideline from experienced hunters for groupings achieved in target situations that translate to clean kills in the field


----------



## Deezlin (Feb 5, 2004)

CritterGitter said:


> You practice enough and you'll be surprised at what you can do.
> 
> Once you start shooting (and allowing the addiction to take hold) I'll bet you'll find some nice groups on your targets.


Crank down the poundage and practice!!!

I would try to make a goal of 1" dia. for every 10 yards, but 2" dia for every 10 yards may be more realistic for the first year. The most important things to do: is try to have your equipment setup properly, do not over bow yourself and try to learn and use correct form, so you will not develop bad habits.


----------



## Brown Hornet (Aug 8, 2002)

Dannyd said:


> Brown Hornet
> I also felt never was a good answer in terms of always wanting to improve. But at some point a certain size group is " acceptable" to attempt to hunt whitetail. If not, then you would never get to hunt.
> My personality will not allow me to accept that the best I can do is 4-5" groups. I will always want and work to get better. My question was more looking for a guideline from experienced hunters for groupings achieved in target situations that translate to clean kills in the field



I am the same way. That is one of the reasons I started shooting 3D and indoors. I wasn't satisfied and wanted to get better. I used to hunt a place that everyone had to qualify to hunt. Although I never took more than the minimum # of arrows to do so I knew I could get better. Just stick with it and keep shooting and learning and your group size will begin to shrink.

Here is a group of 6 arrows at 40 yds on a 20yd spot face( I think it is 6 may be 5). There is a Robin Hood in there. :wink:


----------



## thenson (Mar 23, 2004)

*Great shooting !*

There will probably be someone critisize your group, but at 40 yards? That's some good shooting.

Gives me something to work toward.

thenson


----------



## Brown Hornet (Aug 8, 2002)

thenson said:


> There will probably be someone critisize your group, but at 40 yards? That's some good shooting.
> 
> Gives me something to work toward.
> 
> thenson



Critisize my group?!?!?! Don't think so. That is a 20yd spot with 6 arrows touching or almost touching with a RH inside the X ring....


----------



## thenson (Mar 23, 2004)

*Critisize your group? Not me.*

I was not meaning that I was critical of your group, but it just seems that no matter how sincere of a reply or input we give here on AT, it seems that someone will critisize it and point out how stupid my opinion is....

I would be happy with your group at 20 yards right now. Like I said, that was some great shooting.

thenson


----------



## SpotShy (Mar 14, 2005)

Brown,

I like the way you spend money! Groups like that are what I'm talkin' bout even though they cause you to get in your wallet from time to time. I don't like to shoot at the same spot at 20 yds with my expensive carbons, but at 40, I'll take Robin Hoods all day and won't complain.

Shooting 1" groups at normal bowhunting ranges isn't that difficult to achieve. The bow has to fit, it has to be somewhat tuned (I say somewhat because you can repeat the same shot with bows that aren't perfectly tuned, although I don't recommend it), and you just have to repeat the shot process exactly over and over. 

Thenson, there is a big difference between slaming and correcting as well as a difference between opinions and reality. Sorry I came across to you as negative, it wasn't intended. I just want to see the newcomers (the future of archery) start out on the right foot and the suggestion of accepting sub par shooting ain't it. Also, not only do I hunt, I shoot 3D religiously, and played in spot shooting but it wasn't my game (bored me to insanity). Therefore I am providing advice from a well rounded perspective of 21 years of bowhunting and 16 years of target archery. Not sure if you were refering to me but if so thought I'd clarify. If not, sorry for the response.


----------



## Brown Hornet (Aug 8, 2002)

thenson said:


> I was not meaning that I was critical of your group, but it just seems that no matter how sincere of a reply or input we give here on AT, it seems that someone will critisize it and point out how stupid my opinion is....
> 
> I would be happy with your group at 20 yards right now. Like I said, that was some great shooting.
> 
> thenson


I didn't think you were. I was kinda talkin' the same way you were.



Spotshy,

I like spending money that way also. I don't mind breaking up some arrows. Heck I payed for them and I am not gonna shoot them forever. Heck I get more use out of arrows than I do fishing lures that almost as much money on, and they last alot longer than Pro V1 golf balls. If I am shooting good groups and I bust a shaft I don't care. That is what I want, good shooting.


----------



## Duke12 (Jun 24, 2004)

Brown Hornet said:


> Criticize my group?!?!?! Don't think so. That is a 20yd spot with 6 arrows touching or almost touching with a RH inside the X ring....


I will criticize it it blows, I can't shoot that well at 40 so I think it blows :teeth: :teeth: I cant' shoot like that past 25 yards but I just shoot for fun so maybe I am not to bad. : :wink:


----------



## bfisher (Nov 30, 2002)

I have to take exception to those who say shooting certain size paper plates at certain yardages ia the way to go. Softball size groups? Forget it.

The advice about shooting bare bales with nothing to aim at is a good one. The only way to get better at archery is by improving your form and getting more consistent. Shooting form trains the muscles and brain to function in a consistent manner, and they both develop memory. It all boils down to how good you want to get and whether you have the self discipline to pursue that goal.

I use a personal goal and encourage shooters to know their personal limits. It's not always just the size of the groups you shoot but also at what distance you can shoot them. A deer has a vital zone of approximately 8", so you must be able to stay within that area when hunting. When practicing you have no pressure on you and no time constraints. The heart isn't beating like crazy and the knees aren't trying to collapse. These are huge considerations. That's why I always say that at whatever distance you can shoot 4" groups you should consider your personal limit, because under hunting pressures your groups are going to get larger. How much depends on how well you handle the pressure.

Personally, paper plates are not targets. They are what you put the meat on and eat off of.


----------



## Brown Hornet (Aug 8, 2002)

Duke12 said:


> I will criticize it it blows, I can't shoot that well at 40 so I think it blows :teeth: :teeth: I cant' shoot like that past 25 yards but I just shoot for fun so maybe I am not to bad. : :wink:



LOL.....I will take that shot. :wink: But hey I just shoot for fun also. It just so happens if I don't have groups atleast that tight or a hair bigger my level of fun isn't as high as it could be. :teeth:


----------



## Jabwa (Dec 10, 2004)

A fun form of hunting practice is to run a Field Range and shoot 1 arrow at each target. Simulates the heart rate and blood pressure you will have after waiting 45 minutes for that hatrack to come in close and it serves to get you in shape also!


----------



## Raider2000 (Oct 21, 2003)

I've taught my brother to shoot last year, I had him out there shooting @ a blank spot for almost 2 weeks before I would let him have a sight on his bow, then each day we shot I would have him shoot a minimum of 12 arrows blind before we shot at any target.
about a month before season opener he was shooting 3" groups at 30 yards "#3 pin for him" & I had him shooting from different angles & positions from the ground "we had him in a ground blind" & shoot with his hunting outfit on at least once a week to similate as closely as possible to hunting situations.
When a week till opener was here I took off his 30 & 40 yard pins & told him that his max yardage was 20-25 yards, he took his first ever Buck @ 10 yards 

I have been Bow Hunting since 1985 & have now have gotten back into 3D competition from a 12 year break, but I have allways had my friends or my back yard to practice from, & for the most part if I do my part I can keep a consistent 4" group @ 60 yards with my hunting setup but for as long as I have been using a Bow I have allways followed a rule that my grandfather had taught me which I call the 20 yard rule, which is, if you can hit consistently @ say 40 yards as being your max range for shooting targets then cut it down by 20 yards while hunting to know that you can make the best shot that you can confidently make & have that much less of a chance of nature playing your shot wrong..... 

As others have mentioned start from 10 yards, shoot till you can consistently group a 1" group, then move back to 20 yards & then 30 yards the thing is if you can not group at least a 1" for each 10 yards "IE 1" @ 10, 2" @ 20, 3" @ 30 & so on" *Stop* & make that your max targeting range & when it gets closer to hunting season knock 20 yards off of you maximum, best to be safe than sorry....


----------



## MHU (Jun 8, 2006)

Me and a buddy play a card game with our shooting. We set a block target at whatever distance we decide on, fold the top and bottom of 12 or so playing cards, and insert the folds between the foam layers. Next, we shoot 6 arrows each at the cards. You can't hit one card more than once. We then add up the numbers from the cards hit. High score wins. Not punching the card cleanly (hitting the edges) results in half the points for that card. It's fun and helps our shooting. Try it. The same cards can be used over and over again.


----------



## Tailhunter (Jul 15, 2003)

I was reading the responses and hadn't looked at the names of the writers. While reading one of the longer ones I said.."I've heard this some where before" SPOTSHY my old friend........

Here is my take on all of this ... no rules, no standards!! This is individual conviction time. I have stopped reading all the softball, pie plate; 20-yard max segments because to me they make no sense. If this were all I could achieve I'd quit hunting! We have to be serious about this stuff....to many people asking what's the minimum that I can get by with .. they want to participate but are not willing to put the time and sweat into it to "be all they can be" 

A bow is a tool that must be used year round to be effective. You can't (like with a gun) buy a new one or break the old one out a week before the season starts and hope to be ready. Punching paper is one thing but deer are living, breathing, animals. They deserve our very best!! 

To me a pie plate shooter is a gut shooter ... or a shooter that hits the back leg and hopes for the funeral artery. There are no excuses for this type of hunting, not with today’s equipment. 

All I can say is practice .. set your own limits based on your own limitations, and if you are a 20-yard pie plate, then you’re not ready!!!!!!!

PS: Hey Brown,

Can you do that with a hunting rig and broadheads?......:wink:


----------



## Brown Hornet (Aug 8, 2002)

Tailhunter said:


> I was reading the responses and hadn't looked at the names of the writers. While reading one of the longer ones I said.."I've heard this some where before" SPOTSHY my old friend........
> 
> Here is my take on all of this ... no rules, no standards!! This is individual conviction time. I have stopped reading all the softball, pie plate; 20-yard max segments because to me they make no sense. If this were all I could achieve I'd quit hunting! We have to be serious about this stuff....to many people asking what's the minimum that I can get by with .. they want to participate but are not willing to put the time and sweat into it to "be all they can be"
> 
> ...



Great post. I agree 100%. That is why I am not happy unless I am shooting like I was above. Now should everyone get groups like that or close to them? No, but it isn't as hard as you think it is to get get groups the size of a softball on a regular basis at 40 yds. 

Yes I can do that with a hunting rig. With broadheads.....I am sure I could but ACCs cost to much for me to group them with broadheds plus it isn't really that safe to be shooting carbons and broadheads for groups. So I just shoot them one at a time. But I hunt with an Ultra Tec and shoot target with one. So it is the same bow to me just different stab and sight....and before I stopped shooting over a year agoI did shoot in the 525-535 range and 300 50-55X range with a BHFS setup.


----------



## Brown Hornet (Aug 8, 2002)

OH yeah. When you guys do a search... check the dates before you reply to them. There is no need to pull up a thread that was started 16 months ago. Just start a new thread.......


----------

