# Applying NTS to compound shooting



## sunburn (Jan 29, 2013)

Is there anyone coaching / using Lees NTS method on a compound shooter ?
You do not see many compound shooters that preload using this method. ie Preload bow arm and shoulder , raise , bring chest on plane .... which in turn twist the core. 
It seems a highly repeatable way of setting up a compound shooters full draw position ? 
Is there a reason we do not see this this more ? Is there any reason it is not the "BEST" way for a compound shooter as well ?


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## aread (Dec 25, 2009)

I'm sure that there are compound archers out there shooting just this way. There is really very little difference in compound and Olympic recurve archery. The peep and the release are about it.

My draw is very much like the NTS setup. It's an easy way to draw the bow. I think the biggest difference in archer's form is that a compound tends to let you be a little lazier about keeping the back muscles engaged during a shot. I know I have to work on this constantly to avoid softening.

I think that Ruth Rowe in Virginia teaches her compound students a system very much like NTS.

There is certainly no reason not to shoot compounds with the NTS method. But most compound archers won't change until they start getting beat by someone who uses it.

Allen


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## Moebow (Jul 8, 2010)

What I find with a compound and the NTS is that many have a pretty high peak weight which occurs when the archer is at maximum extension at set up. When they are "reaching" and at their weakest position, turning the shoulders to the "extra set" is really hard. Yes, they are overbowed (but what can you do?). This may not be right, but I have them draw to the valley and THEN set their shoulders into alignment followed by moving to loading, anchor then transfer.

The "extra set" position can be done if the C bow is lighter but many shooters feel they need the 60 to 70# bows so that it is very hard (impossible) for them to get that shoulder rotation until the weight is off in the valley. I guess I subscribe to the NTS statement that how you get to holding is not AS important as getting there. Hence the change in sequence I try to get them to do.

Arne


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## sunburn (Jan 29, 2013)

Moebow- I am getting the first shoulder preloaded from the get go , this is something I have not noticed with many compound shooters , granted hard to spot.
I am referring to drawing high left above target ( right handed archer ) getting the " set " locked out position by twisting the upper body ,and loading the trunk , then driving the shoulders into the full draw position creating a parallel line with the chest and arrow . It might be hard doing this with a bent arm as well ? The bow hand also seems to play a different roll ? thumb out and all ?


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## Moebow (Jul 8, 2010)

"I am referring to drawing high left above target ( right handed archer ) getting the " set " locked out position by twisting the upper body ,and loading the trunk , then driving the shoulders into the full draw position creating a parallel line with the chest and arrow"

If I understand your question correctly, yes, I start with the arrow pointing left, but I don't have them "twist," " load the trunk," or move the shoulders until they are in the valley. At that point, they come in to the loading position which finally aligns the arrow, shoulders and loads the back. Same stuff, just in a different sequence and a different way to get there. It does require more of an arm draw initially but then it heads to the same alignments. Ideally, if they have a light enough bow they can do the steps the same as the NTS recommends, it is just that most of the compound shooters around here I work with are hunters rather than target shooters so they end up dealing with too much weight and we work around it that way.

I'm not a fan of the bent arm, prefer straight but not locked elbow. Bow hand grip and function is the same as for recurve.

Arne


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## sunburn (Jan 29, 2013)

Arne we are on the same page -
I am working with a draw weight I can handle , and spirals at 55% , so it is akin to a recurve set up .I have been toying with this for a couple of days. I have been loading the upper body ( TRUNK ? seems odd ) same as a recurve timing wise , when its right its money , the shoulders lock out and down , its a very specific feeling .The movements are great and well defined , which in the end should produce a more repeatable shot. It is work , and by no means a relaxed shot in my book ,although you can be relaxed if that makes sense ?
When you say "in the valley " do you mean wait to you hit the wall , or simply as the weight falls off ? I am thinking your thought is at the wall , but not leaning hard into the wall.
I enjoy the feeling of drawing while rotating the chest parallel and coming into the wall. Its almost a ballet , for sure not a grip it and rip style.
I can say I have a lot of new sore muscles groups.
This might well be 1 step backwards , 2 steps forward ? It is new and as most new thing in a shot process work , until they do not.


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## Moebow (Jul 8, 2010)

Ya, as the weigh falls off and you are not at the wall yet. Various bows have different feeling (and size) valleys and walls but for that last setting of shoulder alignment, having some movement available (to the rear) gives room for the shoulder to move back as the draw is completed.

I agree, we are pretty much saying the same thing.

Arne


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## slicer (Dec 18, 2008)

I draw by powering the movement with my draw shoulder and lan2 pulling everything else. I feel a powerful sensation in the back of the shoulder as it wants to power the load behind me. The release forearm and hand are passive and relaxed from the start. Once on target I feel the scapula wanting to move into my spine, my elbow wants to pivot back, that intention further removes any load out of the draw arm/hand and the shot breaks as the hinge release yields from the forces. I shot from the pure "barrel of the gun" alignment position for awhile, but found brace height needed to be more generous than what my compound offers. Also, coming to the realization that I am also a bowhunter and extra clothing would cause problems, I shortened my DL back up and am closer to the barrel of the gun than 90% compounders, but not textbook recurve. 

I took a month with a 25# Genesis and worked out my own hybrid method, which crosses into the same stuff as Larry Wise and Core Archery.


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## Archery Junkie (Jan 3, 2013)

What are you referring to when you say NTS?


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## Moebow (Jul 8, 2010)

NTS = National Training System; AKA KSL Shot cycle; AKA BEST.

Arne


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## TheAncientOne (Feb 14, 2007)

Moebow said:


> Ya, as the weigh falls off and you are not at the wall yet. Various bows have different feeling (and size) valleys and walls but for that last setting of shoulder alignment, having some movement available (to the rear) gives room for the shoulder to move back as the draw is completed.
> 
> I agree, we are pretty much saying the same thing.
> 
> Arne


Arne is spot on (as usual). 

I also teach NTS to compound archers, one of the things that I noticed is that the bow is the most accurate from the center of the valley rather than at the wall. Some archers I know have gotten into the habit of adjusting their draw length so that they are in the valley at full draw. It feels odd at first but it can improve your accuracy.


TAO


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## TheAncientOne (Feb 14, 2007)

sunburn said:


> It might be hard doing this with a bent arm as well ?


With a bent arm you are holding the weight with your arm muscles instead of using your bone alignment to do so. 

It is hard to repeat consistantly especially as you grow fatigued. I find that you end up playing trombone with your bow arm as you try to set your upper body.

TAO


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## sunburn (Jan 29, 2013)

TheAncientOne said:


> Arne is spot on (as usual).
> 
> I also teach NTS to compound archers, one of the things that I noticed is that the bow is the most accurate from the center of the valley rather than at the wall. Some archers I know have gotten into the habit of adjusting their draw length so that they are in the valley at full draw. It feels odd at first but it can improve your accuracy.
> 
> ...


 I am looking into the set up and draw cycle and into that last shoulder set more than anything , however ...
What is the set up on the bows they are shooting this way ? Kind of an old school train of thought due to lack of technology in the cam system, but im `not knocking it plenty of perfect scores have been shot this way. I can not imagine shooting spirals this way for instance. Limb stops perhaps , simply due to the lack of " movement " on the wall. Or bows with too much let off , I simply cannot get into my back if I do not have enough weight.


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## TheAncientOne (Feb 14, 2007)

I have the same issue with the modern bows, too much let-off. I shoot an older Hoyt compound (fingers) with only 35% let off, it lets me feel my back muscles almost as well as my recurve does. The set to set-up is slightly different for a compound. If you are right handed you set the bow pointing down and to the left with your arm straight and at about a 45 degree angle to the ground. Raise both of your arms simultaniously with your body rotated towards the target so that you string hand stays an inch past prace height. Once you get the bow to shoulder height you coil your upper body into the bow as you draw to set the "barrel of the gun". You are drawing up from the grip rather than drawing down from the rest. To set your back tension rotate your draw arm scapula down and in towards your spine. It takes time and practice to get it right. I start my JOAD students off with an elastic band so that they can practice the motion. You might want to lower the poundage on your bow so that you don't strain your back the first few times ( I speak from expreience). If you are in the NY area we can set up a meeting.

TAO


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## sunburn (Jan 29, 2013)

TheAncientOne said:


> I have the same issue with the modern bows, too much let-off. I shoot an older Hoyt compound (fingers) with only 35% let off, it lets me feel my back muscles almost as well as my recurve does. The set to set-up is slightly different for a compound. If you are right handed you set the bow pointing down and to the left with your arm straight and at about a 45 degree angle to the ground. Raise both of your arms simultaniously with your body rotated towards the target so that you string hand stays an inch past prace height. Once you get the bow to shoulder height you coil your upper body into the bow as you draw to set the "barrel of the gun". You are drawing up from the grip rather than drawing down from the rest. To set your back tension rotate your draw arm scapula down and in towards your spine. It takes time and practice to get it right. I start my JOAD students off with an elastic band so that they can practice the motion. You might want to lower the poundage on your bow so that you don't strain your back the first few times ( I speak from expreience). If you are in the NY area we can set up a meeting.
> 
> TAO[/
> 
> I'm good on the bio mechanics of NTS , I have been working on transferring to compound , in a nutshell , there are more efficient. Ways to skin a rabbit with wheels! Arne pretty much covered the bases . My goal is to apply the NTS into a compartmentalised compound movement. The biggest benifits are setting the bow shoulder and the final reaching across and complete expansion , both of which most compound archers do not involve themselfs in. Both of which " trap" the scapulam and create a solid base that has a defined feeling .That said its a Better platform , highly repeatable and most of all easier on the body.


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## TheAncientOne (Feb 14, 2007)

sunburn said:


> TheAncientOne said:
> 
> 
> > I have the same issue with the modern bows, too much let-off. I shoot an older Hoyt compound (fingers) with only 35% let off, it lets me feel my back muscles almost as well as my recurve does. The set to set-up is slightly different for a compound. If you are right handed you set the bow pointing down and to the left with your arm straight and at about a 45 degree angle to the ground. Raise both of your arms simultaniously with your body rotated towards the target so that you string hand stays an inch past prace height. Once you get the bow to shoulder height you coil your upper body into the bow as you draw to set the "barrel of the gun". You are drawing up from the grip rather than drawing down from the rest. To set your back tension rotate your draw arm scapula down and in towards your spine. It takes time and practice to get it right. I start my JOAD students off with an elastic band so that they can practice the motion. You might want to lower the poundage on your bow so that you don't strain your back the first few times ( I speak from expreience). If you are in the NY area we can set up a meeting.
> ...


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## sunburn (Jan 29, 2013)

Tao , 
Still interested in the set ups people are shooting out of the valley with ? I need to make back up to the Island and join you on a league night or something !


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## TheAncientOne (Feb 14, 2007)

sunburn said:


> Tao ,
> Still interested in the set ups people are shooting out of the valley with ? I need to make back up to the Island and join you on a league night or something !


You might contact Larry Wise, he coaches that style.

TAO


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## sunburn (Jan 29, 2013)

TheAncientOne said:


> You might contact Larry Wise, he coaches that style.
> 
> TAO


Yes , I know of the Wise Old Mans teachings ! I'm fairly tight with the old fart actually. He used to have to shoot that way with the old style wheels. Now he preaches a low let off and hard into your back and into the wall yet relaxed. I release the arrow using his Core method or true back tension . I'm holding 55% of 55-57 lbs , and yes it keeps me honest , just don't think I could do it from the valley ???

I see a very thought out ,well worded pm coming my way soon ! Perhaps even some charts and drawings !


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## TheAncientOne (Feb 14, 2007)

sunburn said:


> Now he preaches a low let off and hard into your back and into the wall yet relaxed.


That might be a result of his shoulder surgery and tha fact that none of us are getting any younger. LOL

TAO


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