# How to handle a pro at the local shop.



## adam0321 (Jun 10, 2012)

So I have begun to shoot in a Vegas League. I am a consistent 293-297 shooter. We have some good shooters in our group. However, we have a local pro that shoots in the league. The pro obviously always wins. The issue is that our attendance seems to be down because some shooters have voiced that they are tired of simply donating their money to said pro. They don't mind loosing, they just don't like giving away their money or chances of winning a buckle. I thought the NFAA discourages their pros from competing against amateurs? I do not want the pro to leave as I believe their attendance at the shop is good for business. I just feel that they should not be competing against the locals for the prizes. Am I way off base here? Thoughts?


----------



## Iowa shooter (Feb 23, 2013)

Some leagues use a handicap to encourage all types of people to shoot.


----------



## erdman41 (May 6, 2009)

So they would be ok if the same amateur won every week?

Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk


----------



## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

A legitimate Pro....Probably not good for a league or any club or shop type event. We have a few shoot club 3Ds, but rare for one to turn in a score card.

Any shooter that consistently wins puts the damper on things. Most leagues around me fail every year because the good shooters win and win a lot of the times. Fail meaning the league might start out with a bunch of shooters and by half way through half of more have dropped out.

A Vegas League is virtually unheard of around me. 5 spot, yes.

field14 (Tom D.) had a handicap system that seemed to work.


----------



## EPLC (May 21, 2002)

If the pro is willing to be helpful and share with others it seems like a good thing. Still, a pro shooting against the average Joe's in a league sounds a little selfish. Handicap systems do work if they are good ones. I've been running a handicap/scratch league for many years that has worked out quite well.


----------



## cbrunson (Oct 25, 2010)

erdman41 said:


> So they would be ok if the same amateur won every week?
> 
> Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk


First thing I thought as well. 

Somebody is always going to dominate. If you're lucky it might be a couple guys that trade off. Encourage people to step up. That's what competition is. 

Handicap it, pay out 2nd and 3rd, or whatever to keep people interested, but don't chase off the guy that you could learn the most from.


----------



## Garceau (Sep 3, 2010)

Its a tough deal - I wont comment on what the pro should or shouldn't do; that's a personal deal for them.

But I think a handicap in the league would make everyone feel a bit better and even the playing field.

I will share a story

We had a 3D pro up in this area, he has shot everywhere and supported every club he could since he was a kid and now 15 years later was still supporting them. He arrived to shoot a 3D series and was told he could shoot it but not compete. The thing is as good as he is (ASA Shoot-off history good) he didn't dominate or automatically win every shoot he went to. There is a group up here that hung with him and they really pushed each other. Its a tough deal on both side of the fence, I could argue either way. I really enjoy this kid and he has really put in the work - but I also understand the other side.

Having a pro in your league above should bolster attendance, everyone wants to shoot against him and beat him/her. Maybe the shop could put a bounty on their head each week. Not much but if you beat him you get 25 dollar gift card (straight up no handi cap)


----------



## shawn_in_MA (Dec 11, 2002)

We use a handicap system, and we shoot in teams. No prize money either. Keep it fun for everybody.


----------



## crazyhoyt (May 30, 2011)

Maybe ask him if he would put on a small seminar and shooting clinic. That may be a nice draw to get people in the shop, and also help the shooters he competes against.


----------



## justok (Nov 25, 2016)

crazyhoyt said:


> Maybe ask him if he would put on a small seminar and shooting clinic.


He is -:shade:

I highly suggest shooting as close as possible to him , physically and on the score card as possible. 
You get better by shooting with better people , no doubt. If your on a bail with some one hammering Xs it becomes ingrained in your sub con. 
He is the one with something to loose.


----------



## Mahly (Dec 18, 2002)

Let him shoot for free in the league, give a prize for anyone that can beat/match his score, maybe give him a discount on parts for his involvement.
Keep the pressure on the pro to keep winning (only good reason I can see him being in the league).
Lets the regulars have a chance at winning.
Gives the regulars an extra incentive to shoot their best.
Eliminates some of the resentment.

Might be worth a shot.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## nswarcher (Apr 16, 2015)

Our club is similar, but the guys complaining usually finish 5th+, i am all for our pro shooting because he is my target to beat, one day it almost happened and it's a great motivator to think you are starting to put pressure on these guys. 
Think of the complaints like general discussion and here, some will just carry on and bicker then there is us who have made the decision to be the best archers possible, anyone can shoot as good as a pro, they just need conmitment and training


----------



## adam0321 (Jun 10, 2012)

All good advice and thank you. This particular pro does not seem to give much input or advice. They also at times have argued whether or not they thought one of their points were scored properly by the staff. They have also made passive comments that things are not being conducted with in regulations. We generally don't hold people to a strict 2 minute per end standard. 

I used to be a big 3D guy. In most of the local matches we would have a class above open that we called incentive. Basically you shoot for money. The pot being 50% of the entry fees from all incentive shooters. Everyone else just competed for a 5 dollar plastic trophy. however, in this league all we have is the small belt buckles that the pro keeps winning. 

I can see both sides. I also run triathlons, we have had pros come to the local races, they always win, but never take a trophy. They just do it for practice and the locals get pushed. But the winnings are still between the locals. 

I think as a pro you should no longer be concerned with racking up small trinkets but rather use the local stuff for your own practice and to be an ambassador to the sport. 


Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk


----------



## Pete53 (Dec 5, 2011)

sure its hard to beat a pro but its fun trying,also my son even when he was 14 years of age loved shoot`n with the pro`s and my son beat them many times,matter a fact at the state indoor his scores were the same as the top pro a few times at his young ages of 14 -17. I think its good for all of us to shoot with the pro`s , youth archer`s need to shoot with the best makes them better archers too.


----------



## TNMAN (Oct 6, 2009)

Set up an open/pro money class that pays back 80%, and amateur classes that compete for the buckles or other prizes. The pro and anyone else willing to put up compete for cash. Everyone else competes for buckles. 

The following passages in the NFAA pro division rules seem to apply to your situation:

page 36
2.1 The professional archer must conduct himself at all times in a manner that will
bring respect and honor to himself, archery, and the NFAA.
2.2 A professional archer shall make every effort to comply with all tournament rules
and regulations both published and intended.


Page 38
7. Tournament Competition:
7.1 Members of this division will not compete for awards other than money and/or
merchandise in tournaments below the state level. At the state championship they
will be required to compete in the Pro Division if one is available. However,
members are encouraged to support all types of tournaments by purchasing a
scorecard for the regular registration fee.

In my opinion, he is not supposed to be taking your buckles. It reflects poorly on pro division. Give him and anyone else that's willing a chance to compete for cash. All of the above is assuming that you are talking about a card carrying nfaa pro.


----------



## catcherarcher (Sep 23, 2014)

We have a very well known ASA female pro that shoots at our local 3-D every month. She shoots the 50 yd stake unknown in the "fun" class. No score card is ever turned in. She has been known to help kids (10-14 roughly) at the practice bags after her round. very nice lady and a great shooter as well.


----------



## iceman14 (Jan 25, 2011)

Our Vegas "league" is more for fun and practice. We have a couple pros that shoot. We have no prizes except a million dollar bill. When we're done scoring we all shoot one arrow and farthest from center is out. Keep shooting until there's a winner and they hold the million until the next week. It's not much but I think guys look forward to our little shoot off more than shooting the original game. 
I hate handicaps. Well, I hate losing because of them. Last year in 3D league I had the most individual points at the end of the year, my team had the most team points, and we got 2nd. Riddle me that. I wasn't going to do it this year but a buddy needed another shooter. I've tried to get the owner to make another class for money with no handicap and he won't do it. 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## marchingarcher (Sep 10, 2016)

I shoot league here in Tucson at PSE proshop/factory and we use a flight system where 1st, 5th, 10th... win the same amount and 2nd, 6th, 11th... win money also. the same way a tournament flight division would work.


----------



## Dino757 (Jul 2, 2016)

I have heard the same thing at my range. Why should I go shoot, Joe Bob Smith is gonna win anyways. Several years ago I would go to my local league night and just get embarrassed by the other shoots. On any night there maybe 4 or 5 shooters with scores of 300 w 25 x's or better. I found it very intimidating to shot with them. BUT I am extremely competitive. So I started asking questions and shooting more. I made it my goal to be able to hang with those guys. Fast forward 3 years and I most defiantly can hang. But now I hear people complain about me. My theory is maybe people should spend more time practicing instead of crying about the pro. Keep working until you beat them. 
Additionally, Pros like money too! I know the pro I often shoot with has a real job. I also know he has expenses. I'm sure some things are free, but not everything. So imagine yourself as a normal Joe that shoots well. If you represent a company there is an obligation to shoot X number of events. Well to be good you have to practice. We all know the best practice is if you can simulate tournament pressure. So you have to get out and go to local shoots. So who is paying for gas and entry fee? Even then it is not guaranteed the pro wins. 
That is just my opinion, but what I have done to help keep participation up is raffle off money. If I had 5 shooters 1st place gets money then raffle off 2nd place. If I had 10 shooters Id pay 1st and 2nd raffle off 3rd place money. That way even if you shot the lowest score you still had a chance of winning something.


----------



## nochance (Nov 27, 2008)

I shoot in a league to get better regardless of who's gonna win.


----------



## bigHUN (Feb 5, 2006)

I will share my story, I am far from a "pro" because I have other means of income but from the other side I must also depend of some sort of donations otherwise I won't be able to keep up with all the expences involved visiting tournaments.
....in past several years during summer season I have seen a decline in attendance in my masters class, I hear from folks don't want to travel big distances anymore if they can not win...
so I started skipping some "local and middle size tournaments"
also, the past couple fall-winter leagues if I go somewhere I will shoot that famous 20 yarder sessions bareshafts only, from my perspective that makes me a very good practice/training run over a winter also the flawed scoring makes more room for the other folks. 
I don't loose intentionally but I feel good when I see younger people around me (who don't know me much) putting way more effort to show up how we stand there at the shooting line. They usually asking me questions but I have seen also many "smart arsses" giving advise whatever, usually those folks don't want to shoot beside me or with me.
This subject is thanksless to talk about...this is not somebody's fault if the guy is shooting better than the average, I don't believe into a natural talent, I am not that talented person, wherever height we've got into that is paying off that dedication and hard work we put into the game (and not always paying off only most of the time or only sometimes)...
I am saying everybody can be a way better shooter .. everybody with a dream..all depend how far you want to reach


----------



## oldpro888 (Dec 31, 2010)

From his perspective. I've been that guy and been you.
Great shooters need to compete. If it's a money league, they like to win.
Some of the dominance can be overcome in how the league is set up.
Handicap alone doesn't work, if I shoot 299-300 every night handicap won't beat me.
The most fun I had was in a 10 week 450 round on a Vegas face. 
Handicapped at 80%.
You have a different partner every week until you rotate through everyone. 15 shooters 14 weeks.
4 points available each night, one for each end and one for total, combined two man scores against the two guys you shoot against.
Try to pay out several spots.
Everyone enjoyed getting paired with a good shooter. 
There are other formats that work, including having decent pays for 2-4.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## blueglide1 (Jun 29, 2006)

Anything below a state level shoot, pro donation.10.00 practice is what we get to do.We have done that forever here in Wis.at all the local club shoots.Most clubs even have a Pro class,or money class with higher entry fee's along with the normal amature classes.Keep them separate.


----------



## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

I have a good pro shooter in my area Sam, anytime he is in charge of a league night we shoot the scoring round and then we draw numbers and you get matched up with someone else with your number and you and him combine your scores. This way if the pro gets paired with a low level shooter he doesn't win the money and if he gets paired with a strong shooter he will win the money and split it.

I hate the handicap methods I have had to use, the ones we used the top shooter still won anyway. With the above method a variety of people got a chance to win from time to time.


----------



## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

By the way, I love it when a pro shooter shows up and I want them in the competition. Just a couple weeks ago Nashan Thompson showed up to a local 5-spot tournament, the tournament went from someone shooting a 57 or 58 and winning the money to you either shoot a 60x or forget it. Nashan dropped one x and shot a 59x so he did leave it open to take but nobody did it. I only dropped one x on the first end and knew I was right with him up until I started dropping them and let my chances slip away.


----------



## Pete53 (Dec 5, 2011)

we do a one quarter round " 25 cents" while we are shooting a 300 round during league,always the last week winner picks the end rather its the 1st ,middle or last or what ever end that person wants ,during that end of 5 arrows who ever puts in a quarter has a chance, out of those 5 arrows in that round, who ever has the most inside x`s without touching lines wins any ties they just keep shooting ends tell someone wins. its fun and the better archers or pro`s don`t always win. sometimes a youth wins too and that`s cool too !


----------



## dk-1 (Aug 9, 2013)

We started an unofficial league this year on Saturdays at the local shop. It's a Vegas 300 round for $5 entry on a flight system. We divide the amount of shooters we have by 3 and pay out those spots; for example if we have 15 shooters then 1st, 5th, and 10th place get money. We split the money up as we would for a typical 1st, 2nd, 3rd payout. After the 300 round, we do a shoot up which is based on your ranking from that day's 300 round, this is another $5 entry for those who want in. How it works is the 15th and 14th place shooters go head to head for an end, winner of that moves on to shoot against the 13th place shooter, winner of that moves on to shoot against the 12th place shooter, and so on. The shooter who won the 300 round only has to shoot against one person to win it. The payout for the shoot up is winner take all, however every two spots a shooter moves up they earn their $5 back. This system is great because it allows 270-ish shooters a chance to win some money against the 298-300 shooters, the top shooters are all competing for 1st place (not 2nd or 3rd), and it puts everyone in a pressure situation. The shoot up is great because for that end two shooters are in the spot light and EVERYONE is watching! Sometimes we also use a remote camera on the shoot up targets which projects to a TV screen, just adds to the pressure.


----------



## Mitchhunt (Jan 31, 2011)

Handicap the league or make it a blind draw team shoot each week.


----------



## mdrnsamurai (Oct 8, 2016)

"What you've got to do is cut the hamstring on the back of his leg right at the bottom. He'll never shoot X's again because his weight displacement goes back, all his weight is on his right foot, and he'll push everything off to the right. He'll never come through on anything. He'll quit the game."


----------



## rattlinman (Dec 30, 2004)

mdrnsamurai said:


> "What you've got to do is cut the hamstring on the back of his leg right at the bottom. He'll never shoot X's again because his weight displacement goes back, all his weight is on his right foot, and he'll push everything off to the right. He'll never come through on anything. He'll quit the game."


That my friend, is worth repeating. Nicely done.:thumbs_up


----------



## rattlinman (Dec 30, 2004)

Here's my perspective from what you've typed. It appears to me that your "Pro" is not contributing, but is only there to take the money. 

We run the same league as Padgett, but we blind draw teams at the end and the combined score wins the pot. Sometimes the top shooter draws a good partner, sometimes not. Evens the playing field.


----------



## PLUMBER007 (Jun 27, 2008)

Id find it hard to believe someone that's not willing to give pointers, help someone else in the sport would be pro level... I mean that's what its all about... and every company strives for that especially in there top level shooters!
Good shooter yes/no maybe, invincible? no way!
Pro ? doubtful, someone who spends a lot of $ and has the best.. and is good ...probably more truth 
If Pro, 1 letter to a sponsor , about his ways etc..would get the said dog on a leash !
There in a spot where these companies entrust that they are doing all they can to promote etc...


----------



## adam0321 (Jun 10, 2012)

Well thank you everyone for the advice. The person in question is a ranked pro on USA Archery. I think the shop has elected to put them in their own class. 

Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk


----------



## tony21 (Nov 18, 2009)

I would have assumed that once someone achieved a "pro" title that they were no longer able to compete in amateur events. I've fallen out of the archery world over the past couple years and I'm not entirely familiar with the rules and regs as well as I could just be reading this wrong, but it just doesn't sound right to me. I guess i see it as if Clayton Kershaw were competing against a Farm league team...#1 im putting my money on Kershaw everyday, and #2 that is until the joy of competition dissolves and the team just stops playing. From previous replies here the idea of a separate class sounds like the best option in my opinion.


----------



## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

Club events and local Indoor events are usually open to the public. Unless the club or shop has a rule in place any Pro can compete. And then you have yo-yo clubs and shops that think because you're sponsored or a staff shooter you have to shoot Pro and this is wrong. One club felt it you had a long stabilizer you had to shoot their sponsored/Pro class. Real dumb.


----------



## adam0321 (Jun 10, 2012)

Sonny, that is dumb. If that were the case most of the shooters at this league would be "pro". I look at it this way,I shoot in the upper 290's consistently, but I rarely turn in a score card because many of the people shooting are just starting out. I have enough plastic trinkets on my shelves at home from matches. I could care less about a new belt buckle. But the pro I am mentioning is at Nimes right now competing. Yet they have been known to debate their scores during league night. I think the pro I am mentioning could provide a great value to the shop and I am sure is a great person, just don't understand the motivation to beat a bunch of amateurs. I shoot the league because it is where I can decompress from work and meet new people and make friends. I don't care who beats me, like I said I don't turn in a score card and I already have a career as I will NEVER be a pro. But I get dissatisfied when people stop showing up and they make comments like " I should I come shoot just to pay their salary"". I even said I would shoot against the pro just do they have someone to compete against. 

Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk


----------



## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

Go way back in the NFAA. At one time you couldn't wear a hat, shirt or belt buckle with the name of any bow company...We've come along ways since then.


----------



## adam0321 (Jun 10, 2012)

That is interesting, I did not know that. 

Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk


----------



## Mathewsex11 (Jun 18, 2011)

My first question would be are you shooting yoyr game or letting tge pro in your head. We have had several at our shop for years come and go yes they shoot very well. I am like you in some ways my highest score on a 300 round is 298 most of tge time I am in the 292 to 296. But I am more of a hunter not to say I do not enjoy competition. One thing that we do to have a little bit fun is to have our own competion between the non pro's no buckle just a beer bet or something like that it usually does the trick not to say a buckle is not cool. Most of us that shoot are waiting for 3d to start so we shoot indoors to help ourselves out. Now on the 3d course we have seen several of the indoor guys not do as well. Last year I took 2nd place at a local shoot i thought I had bombed my shoot but to my surprise i did better then some of the Pro's and took jome a nice steel etched elk seen plate. Which was cool but all said and done I beleave if you shoot your own game not worry about the Pro then you will be ok. Side bets with your buddies has more meaning than a buckle in the end. Have fun shoot straight enjoy life God Bless.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G890A using Tapatalk


----------



## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

^^^ Good point. That won Pepsi or Coke tastes so gooood.


----------



## Mcameron (Jan 23, 2017)

why do you compete?........why do you shoot matches?.......

is it to win meaningless trophies and awards?........then sure, get upset that a pro is shooting with you............because if he leaves, and you all of a sudden start winning, its only because someone better than you is not shooting.

or is it to build skill, get better, and win because you work harder than the other guy and deserve it?.......then you should be happy a pro is shooting with you.......because if you beat him, you know you actually deserve to win.

i come from a competitive rifle background......and dont get me wrong, i love to win.......but i love to win knowing i had a strong opponent who i know could equally win.

personally, i would MUCH rather come in second or third, knowing i was shooting against a pro/ olympian........rather than coming in first shooing against bubba and joe schmoe.......


i honestly dont like being the best shooter at a match.......because im not learning anything........if im the top shooter, im learning less from my other competitors, and more importantly, i have less motivation to continue to practice to get better.

but if im the worst shooter at a match, then i can learn a lot more, and more importantly, i have more motivation to practice and better myself to be competitive.


----------



## aread (Dec 25, 2009)

Mcameron said:


> why do you compete?........why do you shoot matches?.......
> 
> is it to win meaningless trophies and awards?........then sure, get upset that a pro is shooting with you............because if he leaves, and you all of a sudden start winning, its only because someone better than you is not shooting.
> 
> ...


Pretty good first post!! :thumbs_up


----------



## dk-1 (Aug 9, 2013)

Mcameron said:


> why do you compete?........why do you shoot matches?.......
> 
> is it to win meaningless trophies and awards?........then sure, get upset that a pro is shooting with you............because if he leaves, and you all of a sudden start winning, its only because someone better than you is not shooting.
> 
> ...


Well said!


----------



## Darkvador (Oct 15, 2013)

When I had my pro license, I didn't go to local tracks and beat up on amateur racers. Wasn't allowed. Maybe archery is different or maybe the guy isn't a true pro. If he was, he would be there helping guys by shooting with them, not against them.


----------



## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

These differences you see in people in a thread like this one is why it is so hard to run a local 3d shoot or a league night, keeping everyone happy is a really hard thing to do. The clubs that do a good job finding a way to do things where everyone can function are the clubs with the biggest turn outs.


----------



## whitetailshot (Jun 29, 2016)

I agree with a few of the others.... Shoot for fun. If it's a true pro that believes in what he is providing then he will stay. If he's in it for the money or prizes then most others don't stand a chance, thus making average shooters feel at a loss or unable to compete. Shoot for door prizes, and small bow gifts. Most pros are not going to need any of these anyway. Plus it will keep amateurs interested in the sport. Remember it's supposed to be competitive and fun.


----------



## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

Mcameron said:


> why do you compete?........why do you shoot matches?.......
> 
> is it to win meaningless trophies and awards?........then sure, get upset that a pro is shooting with you............because if he leaves, and you all of a sudden start winning, its only because someone better than you is not shooting.
> 
> ...


Nice with exception of the underlined. Archery isn't a one-on-one game. For my area we don't know how we placed until scores are posted, usually after we went home or at the next event. If one-on-one with a equally or better shooter, yes, one can learn and even push to be better during the event. I don't believe there was a time I was less motivated to get better just because I passed well.


----------



## BigJohnx13 (Sep 8, 2013)

I dont know how the tournaments rating etc work.

IPSC (pistol shooting) have a very good system that caters for everyone at every level. They give you an average rating of your best 2 of the last 3 shoots. To give an example to bowshooting it can be as follows for eg

Class A 300+
Class B 250 to 300
Class C 200 to 250
Class D 0 to 200.

Top 3 places in every class get medals. This way you compete with people that is more or less on the same shooting level you are in and newbies aren't overshadowed by the top shots.
If you are a class C shooter and you average of your best 2 of the last 3 shoots gives you and average of 261 for eg you will move up to class B etc.


----------



## Mcameron (Jan 23, 2017)

SonnyThomas said:


> Nice with exception of the underlined. Archery isn't a one-on-one game. For my area we don't know how we placed until scores are posted, usually after we went home or at the next event. If one-on-one with a equally or better shooter, yes, one can learn and even push to be better during the event. I don't believe there was a time I was less motivated to get better just because I passed well.


now im new to archery....so i dont know how the scene is......but at least in competitive rifle, its a small circle, if you dont personally know someone, you know someone who does......and chances are youve shot with them at other matches during the year

because scoring is exactly the same way, we dont know how people are doing until after the scores are posted.....but people talk between strings.....and you can watch shooters in your off strings...its pretty obvious who the big players are....and who you should be watching.


----------



## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

Mcameron said:


> now im new to archery....so i dont know how the scene is......but at least in competitive rifle, its a small circle, if you dont personally know someone, you know someone who does......and chances are youve shot with them at other matches during the year
> 
> because scoring is exactly the same way, we dont know how people are doing until after the scores are posted.....but people talk between strings.....and you can watch shooters in your off strings...its pretty obvious who the big players are....and who you should be watching.


Not the case in archery. 30 to 40 targets in 3D and 14 to 28 targets in Field and both are shot in groups of 4 by most rules. Targets are scattered over 30 or more acres. Ain't no running all over the place to see who is in the lead.

Largest line for me for Indoors was 91. I really didn't care who was shooting what, only me concentrating on shooting the best I could. For 5 spots, I've never seen a "4 minute huddle" between ends.


----------



## PSE 2374 (Dec 15, 2013)

Everyone gets a trophy kind of society we are living in. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## wabbit (Jan 12, 2016)

ok, can i ask for a clarification...

a professional, 'pro' if you will, by definition is someone who gets 'paid' for their participation as it is their career or livelihood, per se. 

but from what i have read, the individuals being discussed are those who have honed their skill set to the point they win the majority of the time and do so mainly to boost their ego?

if an individual is truly a 'pro' they shouldn't participate in amateur type events except in a paid, 'show and tell' capacity at the event.

if the latter, change their participation parameters by changing the course or shooting distance, etc. 

so can someone provide a definition of their 'pro' in the examples they are referencing?

thanks...

wabbit


----------



## Big Country 04 (Apr 13, 2006)

Our club does a handicap plus two person teams that are drawn out of a hat the first night. But the top shooters in the area(amateur) don't shoot it but we have people from 9 to upper 80s shooting it. I know a few handicap methods the best shooter usually wins anyways but there are few that help even the playing field


----------



## Rabbit57 (Jun 15, 2012)

adam0321 said:


> So I have begun to shoot in a Vegas League. I am a consistent 293-297 shooter. We have some good shooters in our group. However, we have a local pro that shoots in the league. The pro obviously always wins. The issue is that our attendance seems to be down because some shooters have voiced that they are tired of simply donating their money to said pro. They don't mind loosing, they just don't like giving away their money or chances of winning a buckle. I thought the NFAA discourages their pros from competing against amateurs? I do not want the pro to leave as I believe their attendance at the shop is good for business. I just feel that they should not be competing against the locals for the prizes. Am I way off base here? Thoughts?


Adam. You post on #13 is very much SPOT on given you know first hand the pro and the situation. In my area in Northern Illinois we have a ton of clubs and a ton of year round competitions between us and souther Wisconsin. So here if we had a league in the situation you're in, a shooter just leaves and joins another league. But if that is the only league in your area, then that's tough to have no where else to go. 

Is he a member of your club?

It is unethical for him to compete against amateurs. What's going through his mind? I'll always win. I need to feed my ego.

He's not supporting the sport of archery if amateurs are discouraged to compete because of no chance in winning their first medal, trophy or buckle. THIS IS THE MOST IMPORTANT!

Evan if you have flights like my club does, Flight 1 archers who are amateurs won't beet him either and this discourages them also.

In two weeks I will be competing in the state of Illinois indoor championship series. FITA WA rules, I'll be 60 this year so I am to be in the Masters 60+ division. Yet, I am allowed to compete in the Masters division. There are a few guys there in that division that I'm pretty sure I could win over at the 18m & 25m event. But, I have chosen to stay in the Masters 60+ division even though there are 2-other guys, possibly 3 that I would really struggle with. I would have to shoot clean at the 18m and 25m to even possibly win over. 

So, to have a clear conscience for myself, I must choose to stick with the toughest competitors in my division, even though I doubt if I'd achieve 1st or 2nd. I'd be happy with 3rd in state. Last year I was in the Masters division and took 2nd place in state at 25m and 3rd in 18m which I was very happy at that which was my first state championship event and first year shooting paper. Winning isn't everything to me but at least getting a placemeant is very important to me.

Support the sport of archery and the amateurs who enjoy competing. Don't take that enjoyment away from them. Because as an amateur winning or placing in an event once in a while is very satisfying to them and encourages them to improve and stick with the sport!


----------



## Rabbit57 (Jun 15, 2012)

adam0321 said:


> Sonny, that is dumb. If that were the case most of the shooters at this league would be "pro". I look at it this way,I shoot in the upper 290's consistently, but I rarely turn in a score card because many of the people shooting are just starting out. I have enough plastic trinkets on my shelves at home from matches. I could care less about a new belt buckle. But the pro I am mentioning is at Nimes right now competing. Yet they have been known to debate their scores during league night. I think the pro I am mentioning could provide a great value to the shop and I am sure is a great person, just don't understand the motivation to beat a bunch of amateurs. I shoot the league because it is where I can decompress from work and meet new people and make friends. I don't care who beats me, like I said I don't turn in a score card and I already have a career as I will NEVER be a pro. But I get dissatisfied when people stop showing up and they make comments like " I should I come shoot just to pay their salary"". I even said I would shoot against the pro just do they have someone to compete against.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk


Listen every body. His pro is competing at Nimes! I was really shocked to read that! What kind of WORLD CLASS Pro shoots against amateurs for a belt buckle? There really isn't a solution for this, even if it's Flights. I'd be happy to see him shoot in my league every week as long as his scores don't count and he selflessly give pointers and tips to help out the very people that support WORLD CLASS Pro's!

This is like a pro NFL defensive lineman in a local weekly neighborhood football game creams and smashes and breaks bones on his neighbors weekly football league just to show that he can crush them all.


----------



## adam0321 (Jun 10, 2012)

Rabbit57 said:


> Listen every body. His pro is competing at Nimes! I was really shocked to read that! What kind of WORLD CLASS Pro shoots against amateurs for a belt buckle? There really isn't a solution for this, even if it's Flights. I'd be happy to see him shoot in my league every week as long as his scores don't count and he selflessly give pointers and tips to help out the very people that support WORLD CLASS Pro's!
> 
> This is like a pro NFL defensive lineman in a local weekly neighborhood football game creams and smashes and breaks bones on his neighbors weekly football league just to show that he can crush them all.


I agree, obviously. If this was my own shop I would love to have a pro in there. However, I would let them shoot for free if they gave pointers or held a seminar. But thus particular person never speaks to any one except their little click and is actually quite stand offish. Quite in fact a comment was made last week that "you all don't have to worry about .... they are in France competing, you got lucky this week". Not a great message for new people trying to get into the sport who may already be self concious about shooting in front of people. 

Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk


----------



## bshaw95 (Jan 30, 2017)

You need to look at it like this. I shoot AMBHFS. the average shooter I come in contact with in my class, atleast in a 50 mile radius, shoots 260-280 on 5 Spot. Not smoking but not bad either. But I always had to compete with a guy who could shoot 295-300 all the time. When I started shooting again last year I came in shooting like 294-299 all year. He would shoot 299-300 about every shoot. In a lot of other places, I would have been content and won often. But due to this individual I always had to take 2nd. This drove me to do better and I practiced hard and started shooting a lot more. I now can average 300 and high 40 to low 50 x count. I also now have the potential to win any given shoot locally. and won the KY NFAA indoor state championship last year. In our area the Local Ametuer open guys often beat the "Pros" because we shoot with guys of that caliber. Instead of letting a pro being around getting them down, it drives them to compete on the same level as the pro.


----------



## Pete53 (Dec 5, 2011)

I have always felt when I shoot with a pro I will shoot better and have seen many including my son shoot as good as the pro if not just a little better.we all have more potential than we know.


----------



## Bobmuley (Jan 14, 2004)

I guess I look at shooting with/against pros as a benefit. Ever notice a lot of pros are grouped together? Its no different shooting in the Salt Lake area (Henry Bass, Steve Anderson, Tim Gillingham, Logan Wilde, Reo Wilde, Matt Sullivan, Brian Gold, etc), Montana with Paul or Aaron Tedford, Josh Schaff, Kris Schaff, Rob Morgan and Tate Morgan, or the Maryland bunch.

They've made each other better...

Nimes is an open tourney like Vegas, so anyone could go.


----------



## paper shooter 2 (Jun 30, 2016)

You should feel lucky to get to shoot with him. To be able to observe how a pro shoots and learn from that has value. I relocated a long distance once in order to shoot with people better than me as I knew that it was the only way to up my game. If you are looking for instant gratification Ebay has trophies for sale.


----------



## adam0321 (Jun 10, 2012)

paper shooter 2 said:


> You should feel lucky to get to shoot with him. To be able to observe how a pro shoots and learn from that has value. I relocated a long distance once in order to shoot with people better than me as I knew that it was the only way to up my game. If you are looking for instant gratification Ebay has trophies for sale.


I guess you did not red the part where I said I do not turn in a score card. I could care less about trophies. That is not the point. 

Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk


----------



## Larry Tanner (Oct 25, 2012)

How about either make 1st place an autographed picture of a pro shooter and second place the trophy. Or just put "Amateur League Champion" on the trophy. Or do both. Problem solved.

Bottom line is some people don't make shooting there life and it's a hobby. However most everyone feels some gratification from winning or hopes deep inside they have a chance. Add someone at an elite level to the mix and you honestly just as well to just go buy a paper spot and pay range time and shoot with a friend. And have more fun. If you want to shoot against a pro to get better then by all means go register under Pro compete and get better. But odds are 90% of the members here are not going to make a living competitive shooting. And very few will relocate just to shoot better unless they are.

If it's not fun it's pointless. 
I have fun but I also like to win. I just don't because I have to much fun.


----------



## Arrie (May 4, 2017)

We have a handicap Vegas system at our club...and the guy that shoots a 431 could beat a 445 score any time with handicap....and that makes it fun and interesting. At a 5 spot shoot...if you not shooting a 300.... DON'T expect to be in the trophies...sorry but true...and there are NO "pros" there.


----------

