# I have a few questions for some seasoned coaches.



## XForce Girl (Feb 14, 2008)

I recently received my Level 2 coaching certification from USA Archery, during this 2 day class I learned a lot and have been working on the NTS System. 

We have always offered lessons on our indoor range at our shop but recently have had a huge influx on interested students. For the most part these are first time shooters so we show them just the basics on Genesis bows. 
Stance, how to hold the bow, follow through, safety and such. Then we let them shoot at balloons for the rest of the time they have left.

I've met a bunch of great folks and hopefully have planted the seed of archery with them. However, occasionally I get a student that just does not want to listen and wants to do everything the way they have seen the people do it in the movies.
Some have even argued with me and really caught me off guard.

The other day I had a kid and his father, kid was about 11. This kid wanted to shoot the longest target (40yds) and when I told him no and explained the bow just wouldn't make an arrow go that far, he started pouting.
Then he didn't want to hold the bow properly and wanted to grip the heck out of it, he said he didn't like the way it felt to hold it that way. I went into explaining to him why we hold the bow the way we do and he started kind of hyperventilating and giving me the evil eyes. His dad just stood there and asked if he could just do it his way? I stepped back and explained to the kid that he wouldn't be able to hit anything except maybe his arm. I threw my hands up and let him do it his way. They shot a few more rounds and then their time was up. The kid went into a full blown tantrum and his dad just let him. 

So my questions are. Do I stand my ground and make them do it correctly? or let them find out the hard way and slap their arm.
Do I cut the lesson short and send them on their way?

What would you all do?


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## Moebow (Jul 8, 2010)

XForce,

I find that you just have to take what they will give you. By that I mean that there will be some folks (kids and adults) that just won't accept anything you try to do or teach. If they won't try or listen, I usually have a short talk with Mom or Dad, explaining it (and what a 3 or 4 inch blood blister looks and feels like), then basically ignore them. Watch them for the sake of safety of course (!) but let them "muddle" on. I also have no problem suggesting that maybe they should try again at another time (ie. go home). The quickest way to make me go work with some one else is to hear the whine, " I don't like to do it that way." All my new students start shooting at about 5 yards and there is no variation to that for a while.

There are just too many new folks that really want to learn to waste time trying to teach some one that doesn't want instruction. Sounds like you ran into a "spoiled brat" who will have a sad time until he/she learns better social skills.

Congratulations on your level 2 and I think it's great that you are putting your knowledge to work. You will have MANY successes and the reward of seeing new folks succeed is priceless. Don't stress over the obstinate ones, just press on.

Arne

PS. In my experience, boys at this age are almost always more difficult than the girls.


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## da white shoe (Mar 10, 2009)

I think you did everything right.
Poor parenting and spoiled kids aside, there's always going to be a hard case now and then.
In those instances where someone just will not listen, you shouldn't take it personally. You've done the best you can at that point.
All you can do then is let them do it their way, (within the boundaries of safe shooting).
For this particular kid, for whatever reason, doing it his way was the most important part of the experience.
He may hold that interest long enough to want to actually become good at archery and then, someday he may return for instruction. 
Or he may give up. That isn't something you can control... you're planting a seed... you're not building an archer.


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## XForce Girl (Feb 14, 2008)

Thank you both so much, I think I was beginning to take it personal that they wouldn't listen. I feel better now.

So far the befenits of coaching FAR outweigh the negative ones. I am having a really great time and plan on starting up my A.S.A.P. program in another month or so.


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## mike 66 (Jan 21, 2010)

:shade: hi there x force girl..if i would have had them i would of stepped right it the middle of that tantrum and stopped him and told him thats poor sportsmanship i would take the bow and arrows and tell him he was DONE until he can listen to the instructor..and obey the rules.... then i would showed him and the parent to the door. and i would not of looked back. coach mike farmer


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## XForce Girl (Feb 14, 2008)

mike 66 said:


> :shade: hi there x force girl..if i would have had them i would of stepped right it the middle of that tantrum and stopped him and told him thats poor sportsmanship i would take the bow and arrows and tell him he was DONE until he can listen to the instructor..and obey the rules.... then i would showed him and the parent to the door. and i would not of looked back. coach mike farmer


Hi Mike,
Yea, when the tantrum started they were already done and i had already put the bows away. I think thats what triggered the tantrum.
I think i shouldnt of let it get to that point and not given in to him when he wanted to deviate from the way i was teaching him.
I need to be firmer and not worry about what the parents think about it. 

Another question for you guys. What is the ballpark fee you get to a one hour beginner lesson?
I want to coach but also want to make some money for my time.

Sent from my DROID X2 using Tapatalk 2


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## TheAncientOne (Feb 14, 2007)

XForce Girl said:


> Hi Mike,
> Yea, when the tantrum started they were already done and i had already put the bows away. I think thats what triggered the tantrum.
> I think i shouldnt of let it get to that point and not given in to him when he wanted to deviate from the way i was teaching him.
> I need to be firmer and not worry about what the parents think about it.
> ...


I set behavior expectations for my JOAD kids and for any others that I coach. I have one 13 year old that has emotional issues at home but has managed to keep himself in check at the range. His parents told me that it's translated to more self control at home as well. The consequence for him is being asked to leave the group. If a child can't behave himself he shouldn't be given weapons. 

Don't take it personally, there are a lot of disturbed children out there. A firm hand sometimes works wonders.

TAO


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## XForce Girl (Feb 14, 2008)

TheAncientOne said:


> I set behavior expectations for my JOAD kids and for any others that I coach. I have one 13 year old that has emotional issues at home but has managed to keep himself in check at the range. His parents told me that it's translated to more self control at home as well. The consequence for him is being asked to leave the group. If a child can't behave himself he shouldn't be given weapons.
> 
> Don't take it personally, there are a lot of disturbed children out there. A firm hand sometimes works wonders.
> 
> TAO


Thank you all for the valuable information.
Our lessons offer one on one, two people at once and larger groups (with the other coaches)
We are just getting these programs going and will start a JOAD later this summer.
Im going to set down with my employees (coaches) and together we'll set the rules and guidelines to make sure we are on the same page.
Im going to set firm expectations for not only the students but us coaches as well.

Thanks to all of you for your guidance and help.
I now feel I can better handle the difficult ones without jeopardizing the experience of the others.

Any more info is always appreciated.

Sent from my DROID X2 using Tapatalk 2


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## X-file (Jul 7, 2012)

My wife and I have been helping with the same type of situation with kids. We found that we laid ground rules from the start. Parents cannot go past this line for example. Safety is a huge thing and if we feel a child is being unsafe, we will warn them and ask them to leave. It is not easy with some of the spoiled brats out there, but I am looking out for the other 10 that are not. But helping the kids is very rewarding for me. Especially when you get the good ones that listen to every word and in a short time they go from never shooting to popping balloons like crazy. The look on their faces is priceless. My advice...stand your ground, keep your head up, trust your instincts and you will be fine.


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## XForce Girl (Feb 14, 2008)

X-file said:


> My wife and I have been helping with the same type of situation with kids. We found that we laid ground rules from the start. Parents cannot go past this line for example. Safety is a huge thing and if we feel a child is being unsafe, we will warn them and ask them to leave. It is not easy with some of the spoiled brats out there, but I am looking out for the other 10 that are not. But helping the kids is very rewarding for me. Especially when you get the good ones that listen to every word and in a short time they go from never shooting to popping balloons like crazy. The look on their faces is priceless. My advice...stand your ground, keep your head up, trust your instincts and you will be fine.


Thanks for the encouragement. It is really rewarding, i love teaching new shooters.

Yes for the beginners the balloons are a big deal. The lady at the party supply store loves me.
I buy the tiny water balloons by the box full.
But shooting the balloons comes at the end.of the lesson as a reward for a productive practice session.

Sent from my DROID X2 using Tapatalk 2


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## ron w (Jan 5, 2013)

you've gotten some good advice, already, mine is pretty much the same thing.....
certainly cut the lesson short, and mention to dad that you'd like to talk to him....for it is a parenting problem that has the kid behaving the way he does and allot of parents don't want to admit they have a problem raising and disciplining their kids....that's not your job!
when I kid does that, it wouldn't matter if you stopped the lesson or let him shoot, he'd most likely find a reason to go off about something, no matter what it was. it can be quite complicated and reach into the parents being divorced or separated and the kid is taking advantage of knowing that his dad doesn't want to rock the child custody boat, if you know what I mean.... but it is certainly an issue that should be addressed and brought up between you and the dad, at the soonest opportunity, because it is disruptive to the lesson and unfair for others, if it's a group lesson.
you might want to start lessons with the requirement that both parents be at the first meeting, just to learn a little about potential situations like this occurring again. at that first meeting, you can briefly explain what is expected of the kids as far as "behavior" to both parents......usually the mom will have a better handle on that side than the dad will, and have more or a "farther reaching", influence on the kids behavior when dad has them by himself....i'm sure you know what I mean! 
don't be afraid to demand some level of behaviour out the kids...and let them know it right off the bat. make sure the parents both know your expectations in that area, as well....they'll be much more willing to step-in when things get out of hand like that. it might be best to explain that in front of them all....kids present....before lessons start. that way the kid knows he can't pit one parent against the other with his behavior.....which i'm sure you know they'll do!


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## Ray Ray (Aug 1, 2005)

When I run the Youth Field day, We tell the kids up front, when they are on the firing line there are rules to be followed. If you break these, you will put the bow down & leave the line. We tell them what is expected & most listen well. 
It's not our job to teach them people skills, that is up to their parents.


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## mike 66 (Jan 21, 2010)

:shade: sounds like you got the LOVE for the sport x force girl. you did good.. you might start asking the parents if the child is on any med.... before you take them on ............................... so you got a idea of whats going on..you will find out that the kids will listen to you and every word you say is gold and they wont listen to the parents. sounds like he up set you some.... wait till you gotta throw a parent out... be ready for this one , i have had to do it a few times parents come in drunk, or mouthy.. you will get parents that just want to win no matter what they will TRY pay you to teach them how to cheat.. they will leave or sneak out and expect you to babysit... so here is a heads up.... i think you will make a excellent coach.... think safety have fun................and more fun.... hope this helps coach mike farmer


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## 3DConquest4 (Jun 7, 2013)

Don't waste your time with kids like that. by the sound of it you have numerous other kids that you could be helping and that are willing to listen. If they don't want to listen then they'll never develop into an accomplished shooter and maybe they'll learn that or the parents will notice that. GOOD LUCK! CONGRATS!


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## WEEGEE (Oct 13, 2007)

3DConquest4 said:


> Don't waste your time with kids like that. by the sound of it you have numerous other kids that you could be helping and that are willing to listen. If they don't want to listen then they'll never develop into an accomplished shooter and maybe they'll learn that or the parents will notice that. GOOD LUCK! CONGRATS!


not really...why? you'll get better at what your doing ,if your able to control these situations.
remember ,your worst critic,will make your best salesman,if you can convince him!
next time ,take some time out to talk to both,to get your rules down first.

keep up the passion


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## Dand23 (Jan 3, 2013)

One thing on this, did you talk to dad if this was normal? I regularly work with kids on the autism spectrum, and for them, they CAN'T control their behavior. Some of what you describe sounds like this child COULD be an ASD child. I had a boy at scout camp last week that was insistent on holding the bow "wrong". I asked a leader quietly if the boy had any special needs, and found out he was ASD, and was able to adjust my expectations to work with him. As long as he was safely shooting, I focused on just getting him to do things on his own, and rejoiced with him if he even hit the target one out of five shots. That was the limit of his ability.

Some of your description does sound like this child could be special needs. The father should have been able to help you, and assist in tailoring your approach to the needs of the child.


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