# Axle to Axle Length Better



## ron w (Jan 5, 2013)

well, look at what all the pros shoot for target. you don't see to many 32 in bows on the target line, do you ?. I'd give my explanation why, but it seems that what the pros use is more important to people on this site, than a reasonably scientific explanation is.


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## stoz (Aug 23, 2002)

I'd like to hear it?


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## Deputy Archer (Apr 12, 2009)

I think string angle is an important factor. I have a 27 inch draw and shot a conquest 2 for years. I was cheating with myself, the bow was slow and string angle was wrong. I am shooting a pro elite now and found a 37 axle to axle works much better for me. So long story short 40 inchs plus doesnt always mean better.


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## ron w (Jan 5, 2013)

simply put, the longer the sides of a triangle, the less deviation there is at the vortex of any two sides, when displacement occurs.


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## swbuckmaster (Dec 20, 2005)

Oldcav longer isn't nessarily better. What is more important is getting a bow that fits your face. Ata length is more about fitting your face. Pick a bow with about a 7" brace height and ata that allows for a comfortable string angle to not smash your nose or have such a steep string angle it gives nock pinch and puts your peep to far from your eye.


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## stoz (Aug 23, 2002)

ron w said:


> simply put, the longer the sides of a triangle, the less deviation there is at the vortex of any two sides, when displacement occurs.


So whats the perfect ata?


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## bseltzer (Nov 20, 2014)

Just my 2¢ worth... I think swbuckmaster's answer is best, i.e., the ATA that fits *you* is your "perfect" ATA, with "fit" being defined as allowing a reasonable position relative to your nose while putting the peep the right distance from your eye. Obviously the extremes of ATA don't qualify, and there may be some influence due to the type of bow (mono-cam vs. binary vs. hybrid), but ATA alone isn't going to make or break your shooting. Try a few bows with different ATA lengths and see what's most comfortable for you.


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## swbuckmaster (Dec 20, 2005)

stoz said:


> So whats the perfect ata?


I already told you its one that fits you! 

A 45" ata is worthless to me or my kids. A 30" ata is worthless to me and probably uselsess to you but perfect for my daughter. 

A 35"-37" ata fits me depending on the size of cams and I have a 27" draw.


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## oldcav1814 (Dec 25, 2014)

My consideration was a 35" ata bow and 7" brace height. Have a 28" draw length, currently shooting a 7 3/4" brace height and 31 1/2" ata.


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## Rick! (Aug 10, 2008)

ron w said:


> simply put, the longer the sides of a triangle, the less deviation there is at the vortex of any two sides, when displacement occurs.


Not sure what the vortex of a triangle is but the vertex is where two of its sides meet.


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## swbuckmaster (Dec 20, 2005)

oldcav1814 said:


> My consideration was a 35" ata bow and 7" brace height. Have a 28" draw length, currently shooting a 7 3/4" brace height and 31 1/2" ata.


With a 28" draw a 37" for target would fit you better imho. Think hoyt podium x 37". I believe g5 has a 38" ata bow that would also fit. Think less bow poundage for target as well.


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## Sasquech (Dec 15, 2014)

Like stabilizers it is a matter of moments of inertia shorter less stable longer more stable and slower float.


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## Sasquech (Dec 15, 2014)

G5 target bow is 39 inch axel to axel and a very stable shooter


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## ron w (Jan 5, 2013)

Rick! said:


> Not sure what the vortex of a triangle is but the vertex is where two of its sides meet.


 ooooppps, thanks Rick !


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

And sometimes it's about screwing your head on right - like get the bow set where it performs for you. The best ata bows I've shot ran 37 1/4" to 41 1/2" ata. Figure when shooting off the string draw length was set to 29" and 28 1/4" and 28 1/2" plus d-loop which put "draw" in the 29" range. Bows that I can remember; 37 1/4" (2005 Bowtech Old Glory) 37 1/2" (2004 UltraTec), 37 7/8" (2006 ProElite), 38 3/8" (2000 UltraTec), 41 1/4" (2011 Martin Shadowcat) and 41 1/2" (2010 Martin Shadowcat). My present target bows; 2012 Pearson MarXman with 37 1/2" ata and a 2014 Pearson MX2 with 40 1/4" ata. So widest range of ata, 37 1/4 to 41 1/2" for 4 1/4" difference. 

Sort of disagree or really don't know.....Rare is longer ata bows with draw lengths of under 27". So what real proof says a short draw person is better off with a shorter ata bow?


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## ron w (Jan 5, 2013)

exactly...... they're not better off with short ATA. 
the whole point is that there cannot be a "too long", but there certainly and assuredly, can be a "too short", for any given draw length. the limitations to "too long" are associated with young shooters having an bow that is simply too cumbersome in length to be controlled decently, because those muscles that control cant, simply aren't fully developed yet. in this case, it's a matter of bow being proportionately right, in general, for the size of the person, not necessarily the person's draw length.


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

ron, on the adult scale it's the "generation gap"  Years back 48" ata bows were all over the place and everybody shooting them, both hunting and target. Somewhere along the line the "short bow syndrome" came into being. I never got caught up in the craze. The shortest bow I shot was this Whisper Creek 29" ata toy and the thing shot great for the time I shot it, about a hour of solid shooting. Later, I latched on to a TX4 with 33 1/2" ata in trade of wages. Gave it a test hop and then left it hang until September of 2013. Look over link and I haven't shot since I took the 11 point buck that deer season. Put new strings on it and it's hung ever since.
http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=2098676

Certainly the short bows can be accurate. Can't remember when and I think it was Allen Conner in the advertisement for ??? 32" ata bow. Ad; "Shot a 300 58X the first time I set it up." Regardless, the longer ata bows have been on top at Nationals a "ton more" than short ata bows.


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## Deputy Archer (Apr 12, 2009)

I have a 27 inch draw and shoot a lot of marked 3d out to 100 + yards and field tournaments. Now that I shoot a 37 ata bow I feel the years shooting a 40+ ata bow held me back due to speed. I am not one boast a fast bow at all, but the jump from 252 fps to 272 fps really improved my scores and confidence in longer shots. This is due to me not having to adjust my head to center the scope in the peep on the long shots.


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

Many of us adjusted our peeps for longer yardage games, especially Field. Many I shot with had slower bows, just well sighted in for all distances. My 2004 UltraTec had a max draw weight of 57 pounds and IBO of 308 fps, so not overly fast.....


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## ron w (Jan 5, 2013)

SonnyThomas said:


> ron, on the adult scale it's the "generation gap"  Years back 48" ata bows were all over the place and everybody shooting them, both hunting and target. Somewhere along the line the "short bow syndrome" came into being. I never got caught up in the craze. The shortest bow I shot was this Whisper Creek 29" ata toy and the thing shot great for the time I shot it, about a hour of solid shooting. Later, I latched on to a TX4 with 33 1/2" ata in trade of wages. Gave it a test hop and then left it hang until September of 2013. Look over link and I haven't shot since I took the 11 point buck that deer season. Put new strings on it and it's hung ever since.
> http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=2098676
> 
> Certainly the short bows can be accurate. Can't remember when and I think it was Allen Conner in the advertisement for ??? 32" ata bow. Ad; "Shot a 300 58X the first time I set it up." Regardless, the longer ata bows have been on top at Nationals a "ton more" than short ata bows.


 that it is for sure.....
I came up through those years of 42 to 28 inch bow also. when I got my 10st airborne, a 36-1/4 inch bow, I thought it was ridiculously short and wondered how well I was going to be able to shoot the thing !. prior to that, the shortest bow I ever had, was about 42 inches !. I don't know if you can even find a 42 inch bow anymore !.


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## unclejane (Jul 22, 2012)

I have one on order, a Hoyt Tribute. It may be the only 45" wheel bow still made among the popular manufacturers (tho I think Barnsdale and probably some others here and there still make something similar)....

LS


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## Pete53 (Dec 5, 2011)

there are alot of great target bows out there ,but this year since i started to see more of these german made bows i decided to try one so i last week purchased a new OK DST40 target bow " the 40 means 40 inch ata " anyway i now see why people are shooting this bow it really does shoot well very easy,you just might want to try a OK bow ? good luck,Pete53


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

unclejane said:


> I have one on order, a Hoyt Tribute. It may be the only 45" wheel bow still made among the popular manufacturers (tho I think Barnsdale and probably some others here and there still make something similar)....
> LS


Hoyt has the money to put a bow out there for the other "purest," the finger shooter. So it's more of a bow in it's own class and one of the longer ata bows that has exceptionally short draw lengths available, 24-25.5", 26-28".


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## ron w (Jan 5, 2013)

fingers bows, you couldn't have a better spot bow !.


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## unclejane (Jul 22, 2012)

SonnyThomas said:


> Hoyt has the money to put a bow out there for the other "purest," the finger shooter. So it's more of a bow in it's own class and one of the longer ata bows that has exceptionally short draw lengths available, 24-25.5", 26-28".


Yep, I've probably ordered the only one they'll make all year LOL. And they probably won't make a dime off it even at its price of about 1 large. But there probably isn't a better indoors bow available....

LS


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## swbuckmaster (Dec 20, 2005)

Ya nothing like taking a short draw archer and having the long ata bow jam the string into their nose trying to shoot a bow steve anderson or tim gillingham should be shooting. Then further handycapping them with slow arrows. 

Once you realize there is a bow somewhere that actually fits you your scores will go up. I think Greg Pool if that's his name had a formula that really did seem to apply to archers draw lengths and ata.


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

swbuckmaster said:


> Ya nothing like taking a short draw archer and having the long ata bow jam the string into their nose trying to shoot a bow steve anderson or tim gillingham should be shooting. Then further handycapping them with slow arrows.
> 
> Once you realize there is a bow somewhere that actually fits you your scores will go up. I think Greg Pool if that's his name had a formula that really did seem to apply to archers draw lengths and ata.


I like that Hoyt girl (a lot younger than me) that's about as big as well used bar of soap that terrorizes the Indoor scene with a bow the stands almost as tall as she does.......And then people with draw lengths in the 31" range shooting short 33" ata and they love them. Poole's recipe sort of fell by the wayside and not that it didn't make sense, just that people proved that you didn't have to go by it.... And in his own words; "that doesn't mean something outside of those numbers wont work for someone. That Thread ran 7 pages long. And JAVI also had a string angle that sort of equaled Poole's formula. Two very respected individuals and both having something that is "in the ball park."

I read all through it again and like most, things don't get mentioned, like 29" draw? It that overall or the bow? I basically shoot a 29" draw, but incorporate a d-loop that gives me a basic 29". 
Where do you draw the line? My 2004 UltraTec with 37 1/2" ata was the bow I placed and won so much in Field. Records lost now with the Martin forums hacked and replaced twice, I reported of my 2010 Shadowcat with 41 1/2" ata giving several high overalls in 3D. Not extremely long, but I won a 53 yard Novelty shot to win with the Shadowcat (first shot had the disc fall out and balance on my arrow, 2nd shot drilled the 2" disc). On the other hand, I used a 33 1/2" ata bow to win a Novelty 60 yard shot with just -1- shot (baseball diameter bull's eye). This is 8" difference in ata. I used the 33 1/2" bow in 3D once and took 2nd place. I already noted Allen Conner shooting a 300 58X his first time out with a shorty bow. I would say with practice he could have got those 2 other Xs. 
And what about the 48 and 50" ata bows of yesteryear that placed and won so much? Dave Cousin and his perfect 560 in Field with a 35" ata bow? 
That we our human we can adapt.....

Slow arrows? Slow arrows detract from accuracy? Since when?


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## swbuckmaster (Dec 20, 2005)

SonnyThomas said:


> I like that Hoyt girl (a lot younger than me) that's about as big as well used bar of soap that terrorizes the Indoor scene with a bow the stands almost as tall as she does.......And then people with draw lengths in the 31" range shooting short 33" ata and they love them. Poole's recipe sort of fell by the wayside and not that it didn't make sense, just that people proved that you didn't have to go by it.... And in his own words; "that doesn't mean something outside of those numbers wont work for someone. That Thread ran 7 pages long. And JAVI also had a string angle that sort of equaled Poole's formula. Two very respected individuals and both having something that is "in the ball park."
> 
> I read all through it again and like most, things don't get mentioned, like 29" draw? It that overall or the bow? I basically shoot a 29" draw, but incorporate a d-loop that gives me a basic 29".
> Where do you draw the line? My 2004 UltraTec with 37 1/2" ata was the bow I placed and won so much in Field. Records lost now with the Martin forums hacked and replaced twice, I reported of my 2010 Shadowcat with 41 1/2" ata giving several high overalls in 3D. Not extremely long, but I won a 53 yard Novelty shot to win with the Shadowcat (first shot had the disc fall out and balance on my arrow, 2nd shot drilled the 2" disc). On the other hand, I used a 33 1/2" ata bow to win a Novelty 60 yard shot with just -1- shot (baseball diameter bull's eye). This is 8" difference in ata. I used the 33 1/2" bow in 3D once and took 2nd place. I already noted Allen Conner shooting a 300 58X his first time out with a shorty bow. I would say with practice he could have got those 2 other Xs.
> ...


Can guys shoot outside the norm sure but I'm not going to go down to the bow shop and throw 1500 bucks down on a target bow and hope it shoots good buying outside the norm. No I'll take an educated guess as to what a proper fitting bow should fit and try a few of those. I'll leave the extra short bows for different games like shooting out of a blind at kill zone paper plate size 12 rings. I'm not going to give my kids 40" ata bows because you say it's more accurate.

By the way even though Dave and Jessie shot the 35" bows extremely well what size are they shooting now? I'll give you a hint it's a bow they both had input in designing. 37" for jessie and 38 or 39" for dave. 

Slow is relative to the shooter! I'd never strap on 27 triple x arrows with 250 grain points on my daughters indoor bow. The speed those arrows would come off the rest would kill her scores. Screw spine because it's not what I'm talking about here and I don't care about spine on indoor set ups as much. No you want the arrow to come off your rest quicker. This way it's affected less by you. Sure there is a also a point that swings the other way and can hurt your performance with ultra short brace heights, aggressive cams, and too light of arrows. It's just like picking a bow that fits you. You also want your arrows to fit the bow.


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

Well, just dealing with adults is difficult enough. Kids are different, smaller than us and weaker than us (sometimes), so let's deal with the adult side.

So basically, you didn't wreck anything that I noted. But long ata isn't the only factor. Jesse's bow at the time was said border line, but would 1" more of brace height would make it perfect and 1" less totally wreck it? Or would a 38" ata bow be better all round? 

And the "green range" brought out. +/- 3.25" from the mean is quite a bit. http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=1681136&p=1063205434#post1063205434

So I have a basic 29" draw and one bow does have a 7" brace height that gives the 22" in the above link - for 34.5 to 41" ata. So my MarXman with 37.5" ata falls within.
I have another bow with 7.375" brace height that would give 21.625". Due the math; 21.625 / .535 = 40.42" and 21.625 / .635 = 34.05". So my MX2 with 40.25" ata falls within....But then I asked of the d-loop. .375" gives right at a 1/2" difference. Most d-loops run .625". 



So for the past few days I've been shooting both my MarXman and MX2 and pulling my hair trying figure which shoots the best. Shoot them right and both put the arrow in the X. Beings I'm not Dave or Reo or Jesse or Levi or Jeff or Chance I doubt that I'll be able to find out. I like the grip on one and the way the cams roll over at the wall on the other. One is faster than the other. Ain't bad enough, both are black, so I can't use color.... 

Arrows to fit the bow? What game can make a difference. You surely wouldn't shoot arrows set up for Indoors in a 3D event, but you can shoot arrows set up for 3D in a Indoor event. Like me, I have my 3D arrows set up at 6.04% FOC and really shouldn't be using them for Indoors, but they well suffice for my shooting and not that I haven't found a higher FOC seems more forgiving. I just don't want to lose 15 to 17 fps for 3D.....


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## bigHUN (Feb 5, 2006)

I have a 27.2" true DL (grip to nock), my height is 182 cm = 71.65"
Last year I had a 40" ATA (actually about 39.6") bow for both FITA and Field and this year a 38" ATA (37.45") bow....my next bow I will go full 40" back again I like that longer ATA better ...
The string angle relates to a complicated form and drives many things, the most noticeable is how the release creates the anchor, the anchor drives the upper body and the torso, the upper body needs different flexing, and so on....longer ATA for me...


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## swbuckmaster (Dec 20, 2005)

Sonny 
Bow fit like I said in the beginning is best. You need to find what works for you. I'll also stand by my statment I'm not going to recommend an adult dude that's 5' 2" to shoot a 41" bow because some guy that shoots a 29" draw says longer ata aims better. I also think it's funny when I see a 30" draw shooter shooting a 30" hunting bow. In both examples I used adults and not kids. In both examples there are better bows to shoot for those shooters if they want to bring their scores up.


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## wv hoyt man (Feb 17, 2012)

This is a question for swbuckmaster 
So a person with a 25-26" draw will not be up to shooting their very best with a 40" bow correct. What do you reccomend would be about the right size?


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## swbuckmaster (Dec 20, 2005)

wv hoyt man said:


> This is a question for swbuckmaster
> So a person with a 25-26" draw will not be up to shooting their very best with a 40" bow correct. What do you reccomend would be about the right size?


My daughter shoots a 23.75" draw and shoots a hoyt fx" target bow. I believe it's arround 35" ata. She turned 14 in september and averages 292-296's with 12 to 16x's. If you look at this photo you can see her nose is pushed into the string. A slightly shorter ata would fit better for her. So I'd think a 35" to 36" bow would fit a 25" to 26" shooter pretty good. If it were a young kid with potential to grow a bit I'd probably get a longer ata.


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## swbuckmaster (Dec 20, 2005)

That photo was taken the first day she shot that bow. I have sense shortened the draw a 1/4" and it fits a little better. She's only been shooting it for two weeks.


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## swbuckmaster (Dec 20, 2005)

My other daughter or the one in the first photo I posted shot a 290 tonight with 10 x's vegas round shooting those same skinny little arrows in the photo. Not bad for a girl who just turned 11. The big slow 23's don't get off the rest quick enough and scores tank.


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## wv hoyt man (Feb 17, 2012)

Well let's say the girl is 15 years old and is 25.5 " draw with a 40" ATA and shoots on average a 300 58X and has shot two 300 60X scores she would be shooting better with a 35" ATA bow correct.


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## swbuckmaster (Dec 20, 2005)

I'd say she is shooting awesome and is shooting outside the normal range of what I'd set her up with.


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## wv hoyt man (Feb 17, 2012)

I guess what I am say is not everything in archery is cut and dry on what works for all people. When ask which new Hoyt Podium X bow she wanted buy the 37 or the 40, she was very firm that she wanted the 40. This girl is now 16 years old and shooting the best scores of her life.


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## wv hoyt man (Feb 17, 2012)

Your girls are shooting great. It is also nice to have a parent that is there to work with them, this time with them will always be remembered.
Just don't be afraid to try something different you can always go back to what was working the best. This goes for arrows, rest, stabs ect.


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## Pete53 (Dec 5, 2011)

yes ata is kinda important, but let`s not forget the size of the cam that can add to the length and help the bow string angle. i have a hoyt 737,that has a ata of 37 inch,but with the bigger cam this bow really now is kinda a 39 ata with the big wheel . look at what levi morgan used last year a 35 inch ata but his bow had large cams so that bow angle was much better and yes we all know levi morgan a shooting machine so to speak. ata is important but the size of the wheel can make a difference too on string angle.


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

wv hoyt man said:


> This is a question for swbuckmaster
> So a person with a 25-26" draw will not be up to shooting their very best with a 40" bow correct. What do you reccomend would be about the right size?


I saw, but nuts&bolts is the only one who has Poole's formula written down and Alan always drags out things. Three divisions of Poole's formula, low, high and the middle is given as Poole's sweet spot (or "in the green"); .535 and .635...... .592 would then the average of the sweet spot.

nuts&bolts;
"Sooo,
if we take the (power stroke) divided by 0.535 = 22-inches divided by 0.535 = 41-inches
if we take the (power stroke) divided by 0.635 = 22-inches divided by 0.635 = 34-1/2 inches
if we take the (power stroke) divided by 0.592 = 22-inches divided by 0.592 = 37-inches."

Put in your numbers;
26" draw minus 7" brace height = 19"
19" / .535 = 35.51" ata
19" / .635 = 29.92" ata
19" / .592 = 32.09" ata

25" draw minus 7" brace height = 18"
18" / .535 = 33.64" ata
18" / .635 = 28.34" ata
18" / .592 = 30.40" ata

Which ata would you like for target shooting?

So I have a TX4 with 33 1/2" ata and brace height of 6"
29" minus 6 = 23"
23" / .535 = 42.99" ata
23" / .635 = 36.22" ata
23" / .592 = 38.85" ata 

http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=2098676&p=1068387153#post1068387153


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## Pete53 (Dec 5, 2011)

wv hoyt man : if your young daughter wants a 40 inch ata hoyt podium let her get that bow, i let my son pick his bow on hoyt target bow and yes he always got a 40 inch ata he shot great with it 300`s always and 50 X`s and up to 60 X`s, really that is cheap ,legal, very safe entertanment and you will know where your daughter is .since she wants that size bow instead of some girl thing and she`s not in trouble you really won the battle anyway. kids grow fast and gone soon, someday you will be glad you let her make her own decision on what size ata she wants not what dad want`s. so pay the man , i wish her great success,Pete53


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## wv hoyt man (Feb 17, 2012)

Thanks Pete53. What it comes down to is what a person likes to shoot and can shoot it well. She has shot other Hoyts in the 30" and 35" but when she got a 40" that is when she started shooting really well. Like I said before some like to make archery cut and dry and it is not always the case. I never really worry about her because if the archery range is open that is where she is at.


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## Pete53 (Dec 5, 2011)

you are welcome, as we speak i am sure my son now 26 with a college degree is in a bow stand as we speak,his biggest problem now is girlfriends not understanding his life long passion ARCHERY.which i bet your daughter will have too and as i said i wish her great success. Pete53


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

The trouble with formulas...They get out of whack on the far ends... Poole's shows it. I didn't figure Tim Gillingham; 32" draw minus 7 = 25 / .535 = 46.72" ata. Does PSE make a 46.72" ata bow? 

The draw length formula of WS / 2.5 shows off. Take this formula and work it out so down to 23" and up to 33" and see if doesn't run off as compared to Bernie's WS-15 / 2. Hint; Bernie's stays even.

Formulas..... Odd if you show them off no one wants to comment.

Odd is "X" formula isn't right, but put a high profile name to it and no one comments. Case in point; Stabilizer formula I've given. First, disclaimed. Name added. Who? George Ryals. By another name, Griv.

Same with cam lean. Some want the cam straight at full draw. Okay, you first have "normal" cam lean. You then straight the cam for at full draw. What you have when you let down is cam lean going the other way from the "normal," a trade off, same mount of cam lean, just leaning differently with bow at rest. I've had cam lean with virtually every bow I've owned, some through the dreaded floating yoke and by binary cams. If a hybrid cam system and static yoke, the top cam was straight and the bottom cam having some lean. I've got a wall full of awards and trophies with these cam/wheel, cam/cam leaning bows.

Arrows. "My God, you didn't square the ends. Man, they just won't be accurate." Some one stand up and prove it.... I've got my proof that says arrows don't have to be square, the same wall full of awards and trophies noted. Tally all my minus up ( throw in unable to bare shaft tune) and my bows shouldn't be able to lob a arrow, not alone shoot with any accuracy. Lord, I must be lucky...

Archery for you. One finds "this" works for them and another finds "something" else that works for them.

Back to the subject.....


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