# 100% American made



## concept (Aug 27, 2003)

A post on the Concept mono bow thread,asked the question,are your risers machined in Hungary? This person said he had seen this on another thread.All i can say is no,all are parts that go into Concept bows are 100% American made.There will never be a day when Concept follows the trend of some in the archery business of having China or Korea make their risers.
EVERY AMERICAN IS LOSEING SOMETHING EVERY TIME THEY BUY MADE IN CHINA.YOU CAN NOT CONVINCE ME THAT A TIGER THAT HAS BEEN EATING PEOPLE CAN START EATING kAL CAN.They UNDERSTAND THAT THE WORLD CAN NOT BEAT THE U.S MILITATY,BUT YOU CAN WIN ECONONICALY.THEY DID NOT HAVE ENOUGH MONEY TO FUND A MILITATY MACHINE WELL ENOUGH TO MOVE TO WORLD DOMINATION,BUT NOT JUST US BUT A LARGE PART OF THE WORLD IS FUNDING THEIR ECOMONY. KEEP UP THE GOOD WORK BUY ,BUY,BUY ,AND YOU JUST MIGHT HAVE TO LEARN THE LANUAGE OF CHINA


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## Marcus (Jun 19, 2002)

Shortsighted company with no idea of global economics.


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## Jose Boudreaux (Oct 18, 2003)

Had I not took an economics class I would have disagreed with Marcus.

Not saying you NEED to go get some of your products from outside the US but saying we always lose when you buy something made in China is like saying Farmer Brown should never leave the farm....don't buy from the store, don't sell the cow, etc.....just keep to yourself and rot away...they got stuff we can use, we got stuff they can use. 

Yeh, I drive a Ford but 98% of it might have been made in China....I didn't learn French or Spanish..not likely to learn Chinese.

I also shoot Gold Tip arrows...


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## DANFAM (Oct 23, 2004)

I agree with concept, every time you buy something made in China, you are putting an American worker out of a job. I feel the same way about the self checkouts at walmart and food stores. You use to have 1 person per cash register and sometimes even 2 people per cash register if they had a bagger working. Well with the self checkouts you have 1 person for 4 cash registers. Yeah, its faster and cheaper for walmart, but its also cheaper for other companies to buy from china. Get my point? Anyone else feel this way?


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## Mikie Day (Oct 21, 2002)

you should find that thread that listed your risers as non American made and correct them...

 mike


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## concept (Aug 27, 2003)

*Shortsighted*



Marcus said:


> *Shortsighted company with no idea of global economics.  *


There is nothing wrong with trade,but when more is entering than exiting,you lose.Read any money mag.,and the experts are saying,as they have been for several years,the U.S. is moving toward a service oriented economy,with 250 million people,we can't all be service,info oriented.
Remember Florence and the Ducat


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## centerx (Jun 13, 2002)

Same old miquided beliefs.... OK Again for the massively confused Economics 101.. Well use something were all familiar with .. Arrows manufactured outside the US....

China Makes a Cheap Arrow and a ton of them are sold in the US ... Who in the US benefits 

1) The dock worker who unloads these shipments,,,
2) The Shop owner who realizes higher profit margins
3) The Manufactures of the equipment used to produce these arrows 
4) The US exporter of the Raw materials
5) The US consumer / Other US companies . The consumer has more money in his pocket after these arrow purchases. So perhaps he can afford the more expensive Concept 99 bow.. Or that Trophy taker rest.. or Carter release... 

Purchase US on these items ( and more ) who gets hurt.....

1) Dockworkers laid off
2) Shop owners profit margins squeezed Has to charge more on everything ( reference consumer purchasing less and the consequences)
3) Exports from people who makes the tools to manufacture these arrows go down .. Small start-up company closes ending work for 20 people
4)Exports of raw materials down ... Few more layoffs
5)Sales of other archery related goods go down . New ideas not brought to market ... consumer has less choices..

Strange How Hoyt .. Easton... Concept and others can cry BUY USA but then those same companies export there products world wide... What if those countries were able to buy those products because they were all gainfully employed and making stuff for the good old USofA.. But low and behold the US is not buying anymore so guess who is not purchasing that new made in the USA and exported bow?? 

Get it yet??? 

Yes the trade deposit IS A PROBLEM... but is stopping the purchase of oversea goods and seeing some of the potential consequences going to be the solution to this?? In my example what happens? People could lose jobs... Consumers could have less.... and exports could go down just as bad still having a trade imbalance.


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## Techy (Nov 8, 2004)

Marcus said:


> *Shortsighted company with no idea of global economics.  *


True, there is a balance to everything. 

Centerx had a good point.


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## centerx (Jun 13, 2002)

Everybody hears the phrase "the Fed lowered the rate today" Does anybody know what this means ??

The fed rate has a large impact on the rate that the banks offer loans at... The lower the rate the more borrowing... the more borrowing the more spending... More houses being built ... More Auto purchases... ect.... However, when growth is two much recourses becomes scares ( lumber , cars ect.) and the price goes up.. That's causes inflation and when it looks like this may be a problem the Fed. ups the rate to slow down borrowing and growth...

Even the economist agree that more money in peoples hands causes a healthy economy and less tends to slow it down..

So Buying US exclusively and paying more for product in essence guarantees the slowing down of the economy as a whole that simply is just not good economics....

But as Concept 99 said it isn't the long term solution that the US should be workings towards either. It's not the fault of US consumers that is sending production oversees . It's US workers inability ( note I did not say unwillingness) to work at wages that can be comparable to overseas production. So basically we are the victims of our own gluttony. 

Want to become competitive overnight?? I just read that there are a record 10 million illegal immigrant in the US .. I say grant them immunity as long as they are working in certain sectors ( manufacturing perhaps ) and at certain wages.. Ramp up production and competitive exports suddenly exist. The Wal-Mart's can stock shelves with competitive made US goods... Since domestic manufacturing just went up you increase jobs in the transportation sector , Machining, Construction , Raw materials... Dock workers are also needed to export just as well as import...

But then again... We could all just yell and holler "buy American" without any real knowledge of the disastrous consequences this could bring!!


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## ZA206 (Oct 28, 2004)

centerx said:


> *Same old miquided beliefs.... OK Again for the massively confused Economics 101.. Well use something were all familiar with .. Arrows manufactured outside the US....
> 
> China Makes a Cheap Arrow and a ton of them are sold in the US ... Who in the US benefits
> 
> ...



Couple of things about your post here centerx...

You are waayyy off about the raw material supply to China. Most raw materials that are used in China (for the manufacture of just about everything you can think of) do NOT come from the USA. 

Taking your example.... raw materials for carbon fiber arrows basically consists of resin, carbon fibers and catalysts. There are domestic manufacturers of these products, but they are not shipping them to China from US mfg. plants. Most of these companies have set up plants in and around China to supply China. Most of these companies are not US based companies. Guys like BASF & Bayer are some of the largest resin & catalyst producers in the world..... they are Germans.

One more thing, once the Chinese get ahold of a product they have to import (from the USA or anywhere else), they reverse engineer it and cut out the original supplier as fast as they can. This happens all the time and the Chinese don't really observe international patents or trademarks.... if some of the bow companies get too involved in China, they'll be making a competetor out of a vendor in a hurry... they'll sell their same $700 bow for $150 and the Bow mfg. will SOL. See the golf club industry for a prime example. The majority of the clubs are made in China (Callaway, Taylormade, Nike.... etc.)..... they have to re-engineer the clubs every two years b/c the Chinese copy them and sell them for $100 in outlets.... aka "knock-offs".

-ZA206


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## concept (Aug 27, 2003)

*Centerx*



centerx said:


> *Same old miquided beliefs.... OK Again for the massively confused Economics 101.. Well use something were all familiar with .. Arrows manufactured outside the US....
> 
> China Makes a Cheap Arrow and a ton of them are sold in the US ... Who in the US benefits
> 
> ...


PEOPLE HAVE LOST JOBS. Does the torent of cheap imports into the U.S create jobs,yes,more than lost,no.

There is merit to what you said. let's take a look at other segments of industry


Steel,on the ropes because of cheap subsidize imports
Textile, pretty much gone
SHOES,Gone
Auto industry 60% fewer employed than in 1960.

Yes we export a vast amount of raw material,and there is nothing wrong with trade,but take a trip through the northeast through the central states . I give up,i guess i am just a fossil,but i like to keep my business with U.S companies.Hail Wal Mart


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## centerx (Jun 13, 2002)

Absolutely correct ... Economics is to vast of an issue you have to talk in "generic" terms and generically Some overseas manufactures will use USA imported raw materials. I think most of the foreign made arrows that I'm aware of come from Korea and Mexico. So these companies are building plants right there in China to support production... Were is all the machining and tooling and steel coming from for this expansion?? The USA??? No ?? some other country?? Maybe some CNC machines from Germany?? Great the German company has picked up CNC manufacturing for the Chinese production expansion... Making them hand over fist?? Were are the parts , wiring, and raw materials coming from to build these German CNC machines?? US perhaps?? Nope?? The wiring comes from Canada let's say... Who supplies Canada with all the raw materials for that wiring?? Or the Machines to make it?? USA maybe?? ... More time then not some how some place an increase in production in some part of the world will lead to opportunities in the US .. The smart business will recognize this and capitalize on it.. Personally I say Let the Chinese make cheap goods for the world and let the worlds supply them with the recourses to do so. 

So if the Chinese reverse manufacture a product and ship it back to the US mainland at you get a similar product and a substantial savings does that necessarily hurt the US consumer??... More money in pocket... maybe you purchase that US made golf bag... or play more golf... or purchase some "high end" US made balls or maybe golf just gets more affordable and more shops open up and more courses are built... Lots of job opportunities there as well... 

Not saying its a good or bad thing but there are some type of consequences.. Some good ... some bad.... 

I'm curious if all this goes on and all the companies that contract with China knows it goes on and allegedly it hurts those companionless... Why do US firms continue to do it?? Your correct it's happening so there must be some economic "factor "going on that still offers these companies an advantage


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## centerx (Jun 13, 2002)

Concept....

Yep All true.... Some was going to happen requires some we created as a nation. So how is "Buying US" exclusively going to solve these problems... Keep in mind there is only one reason we can not compete with the rest of the world in manufacturing right now ... LABOR COST!!!..

Buying US might create some more jobs but is it going to create more affordable products?? If the answer is no ( and it is ) are you willing to go without less in order to strictly support US manufacturing. If the answer is yes. The goods and services you are not buying might just as well put somebody else out of work.

So we can preach all we want but please show me how that that a strict adherence to the purchase of goods made 100% in the US will actually HELP the overall economic status of the US... I doubt you can because in all reality I don't think it will ....

So again you better be prepared to give in to the nations that have millions and millions of people who are ready to do these things for 75 cents an hour and position yourself to get on the bandwagon from the backside...

Plus it's all a big circle anyhow.. China is now what Japan was for 40 years... Then as chiness consumers have more and more money in there pockets they will be consuming more and more ( see economics 101) soon inflation will hit and they will not have the economic policies to deal with that as well ( see economics 101). As they become less and less competitive in the world market who's next?? Korea ?? Mexico?? China is currently in there Industrial Revolution just like we once were and Japan once was...


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## ZA206 (Oct 28, 2004)

centerx said:


> *Concept....
> 
> Yep All true.... Some was going to happen requires some we created as a nation. So how is "Buying US" exclusively going to solve these problems... Keep in mind there is only one reason we can not compete with the rest of the world in manufacturing right now ... LABOR COST!!!..
> 
> ...



Your last statement is 100% on the mark. They are in their own hyper-industrial revolution. In 40-50 years (maybe not even that long) they will raise the standard of living to the point that they become less competetive and will be "like everybody else"..... but what happens to the USA and Europe in the 40-50 years that it takes to happen?

There is a distinct difference between cheap products (saving the consumer money) and being jobless.... if you are jobless, you aren't buying cheap products anyway b/c you are BROKE! Don't put the horse before the carriage.

BTW, most of the people I hear arguing your point of view simply say "that's economics" and don't have their own company with employees that they feel they have a responsibility to keep employed.

I guess that might be why concept and I are on the same wavelength about this.

-ZA206


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## concept (Aug 27, 2003)

*U.S. MADE*

lOOK,THER IS NOTHING WRONG WITH A ARCHERY PRODUCT MADE OUTSIDE THE U.S,The same product at a much lower price to the manufacturer,it helps.Does it bring the price of bows down,yes in some cases.
The way i look at it,as small as i am,if the company that machines my risers loses my business,they won't have to close their door-but it would mean a drop in there sales and maybe they would drop 1 person.I have parts made in shops that only have 3 people working,if i pulled out for over seas production it would impact them hard. If i can keep 1 working,i will as long as i am able.

Oh, forgot about the aircraft industry,they are having a hard time because of E U subsidized Air Bus .


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## centerx (Jun 13, 2002)

Saving people money keeps consumers spending on many instead of fewer consumer goods. This helps ( in part ) to keep employment up. It's an economic fact and the most powerful economic tool that the Fed has at there disposal ..

God bless people like you and Concept that care... The fact that it appears others don't is the farthest thing from the truth. I also care and why I think different and unique approaches need to be realized from the Government and from the business owners.. The key is how can I as a business owner capitalize on such a phenomenon as "China" and use it to there advantage???

Lets say a start up bow manufacturer has there risers machined in China... Not the whole thing made there but outsourced a part, the riser ..... Assuming that the tolerances are what would be expected the cost of manufacturing might have just become cheaper. Most of corporate America pockets that money and makes a few fat pigs off the profit. Again not the consumers fault. But lets say companies with true integrity and a sincere desire to invest in the US passes that savings on to it's workers as a form of health care benefits?? Or perhaps they sell cheaper ( and more ) in turn needing to hire more people?? Maybe the built in savings can make some shop owners more profitable . In turn lowering the prices on other products and shops sell more of those products because the consumers can afford it. Maybe those companies sales pick up as well and more people are hired as well.....

So maybe that machine shop losses an employee but maybe 3 or 4 are added as a result?? But yes move the whole process to China and importing that final good back to the US .. and keeping the profits to the CEO's of those companies really don't do much to increase jobs in the US now does it....


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## Marcus (Jun 19, 2002)

*Re: U.S. MADE*

Perhaps it would be wise to look at it from a state level
You need a widget for your bow
You have a guy down the road who can make them but the cost is about 300% higher because he doesn't have the numbers to produce it on a wide scale. He employs 1 widget maker.
This isn't good because it will drive the price of your bow up
No big deal. There is a large company in the next state who makes em and specializes in widgets. 
You start bringing them in from there. 
Because you buy so many you start selling them to some other local businesses. 
The local guy stops making widgets and fires their widget maker. 
But hey, at least you are still buying American made and it's a tough competitive world out there. Sorry for the guy who got fired, but you got your new SUV and he could always moves to the next state and work there. Right? No guilt there I am sure.

Or perhaps you take a stand. ONLY STATE MADE PARTS USED. 
You build 1000 bows but can only sell 200 in your state. You go to the next state "Hey buy my State Built Bows?"
"Why would we do that?" says Next State Bow shop. "We sell Our State Bows only, and besides, you never buy OUR gear. Also they are too expensive. We sell bows by Global Bows whch are half the price". 
You get the same treatment at every other state. 
800 surplus bows, guess you better fire some workers cause you used up your local market. 
A year passes and your 200 customers demand the new models. Faster, cheaper. But you think "well sure, but I will only make 200 of them cause no one outside my state buys em!"
This year you sell 50 because your price was higher. Damn that Global Bow company using cheap labour from 2 states over!!!!

Hopefully these examples help you see that job losses are going to happen. You need to run your business smart and stop seeing outside the US as an evil unfair force and more as part of the big picture. You can keep shrinking the size of your example as much as you want and the results are always the same. (Hope you buy your Widgets from your own street, might cost jobs to the street across town if you don't. Damn those northern side of town people and their cheap labour costs!!)

Possibly concept should try and compete with the big bow companies by producing quality products that archers everywhere want instead of trying to scare and guilt people into buying them. Afterall I am sure Hoyt and Mathews employ more local workers than concept do.


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## 442fps (Dec 23, 2003)

Sorry Concept , but this is the most stupid and unnecessary thread that you've ever started .


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## centerx (Jun 13, 2002)

For all you small town people who say I don't care about you here's yet another example of exactly what I'm talking about....

Typical rural community of 25,000 people or so.. There are 2 One stop shopping centers in your town Bob mart employees about 15 people and only stock good old made in the USA goods... And the evil empire Wal-mart!! The whole community agrees with the Buy USA mantra and purchases everything from Bob mart...The prices are higher and the selection is less but hey if we don't buy "made in USA" Bob mart will go under and gosh darn it we have lost enough jobs oversees!!! In all reality this is the point .. isn't it??

Bob mart is stinking rich!!! .. and is able to pass health benefits to all 15 of it's employees( Yeah!!! Just what everybody wants to see) but wait problems are on the horizon... He pays less taxes into the community as his footprint is smaller. One example is property taxes... The city is down in revenue so they don't move on with that street improvement project so a few city works are laid off..

Bob mart has to charge more.... People just don't have the income they used to. There staying home more and having more home cooked family meals ( yeah!!! Another win for family values) but wait the local diner just had to close.... 5 more people out of work... 

The Wal-Mart's across the nation are simply struggling with this new found wave of "Buy USA" some stores will simply just have to close. They close the one in your community. Suddenly 300 people out of work. They were one of the largest employers in small-town USA... Shame really....

But wait all is not lost !!! Bobs world stocked 300 separate Made in USA items and sales at these companies are going through the roof ... Some even needed to add jobs!! 600 new jobs were added !!!! across the USA . So really It worked ... Jobs were added... Or did it....

Back in Small town the local movie theater just closed .. People around here just aren't seeing movies like they used to... 10 more out of business... Well you can argue about the ripple affects all day long....

When the smoke clears 350 people are out of work in small town and have no health benefits . Some had to move away to find work putting a bigger financial burden on those left behind.. Heck even Bob worlds sales are down people are unemployed and not buying like they used to. Winter is coming up and gas prices are up 34% ( an actual projected truth) What to do?? He could get in some affordable imports but the town would just ridicule him... Buy USA is how he got rich....

Bet the town is glad they saved Bobs world and it's 15 employees... Bet there glad that some Joe across America got picked up by a USA manufacturer...So as you can see Jobs can be added by a Buy USA Mantra and communities can still suffer


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## concept (Aug 27, 2003)

*Re: Re: U.S. MADE*



Marcus said:


> *Perhaps it would be wise to look at it from a state level
> You need a widget for your bow
> You have a guy down the road who can make them but the cost is about 300% higher because he doesn't have the numbers to produce it on a wide scale. He employs 1 widget maker.
> This isn't good because it will drive the price of your bow up
> ...


THIS THREAD WAS NOT STARTED TO TRY TO SCARE OR MAKE PEOPLE FEEL GUILTY,YOU HAVE MISSED THE POINT


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## Marcus (Jun 19, 2002)

> EVERY AMERICAN IS LOSEING SOMETHING EVERY TIME THEY BUY MADE IN CHINA.YOU CAN NOT CONVINCE ME THAT A TIGER THAT HAS BEEN EATING PEOPLE CAN START EATING kAL CAN.They UNDERSTAND THAT THE WORLD CAN NOT BEAT THE U.S MILITATY,BUT YOU CAN WIN ECONONICALY.THEY DID NOT HAVE ENOUGH MONEY TO FUND A MILITATY MACHINE WELL ENOUGH TO MOVE TO WORLD DOMINATION,BUT NOT JUST US BUT A LARGE PART OF THE WORLD IS FUNDING THEIR ECOMONY. KEEP UP THE GOOD WORK BUY ,BUY,BUY ,AND YOU JUST MIGHT HAVE TO LEARN THE LANUAGE OF CHINA


Ignorant racist propaganda


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## centerx (Jun 13, 2002)

Well I was seeing your point and actually I agree with what your saying and admire your stance . However if ALL followed suit the results would be very much less then desireable.... But to say....



> EVERY AMERICAN IS LOSEING SOMETHING EVERY TIME THEY BUY MADE IN CHINA.YOU CAN NOT CONVINCE ME THAT A TIGER THAT HAS BEEN EATING PEOPLE CAN START EATING kAL CAN.They UNDERSTAND THAT THE WORLD CAN NOT BEAT THE U.S MILITATY,BUT YOU CAN WIN ECONONICALY.THEY DID NOT HAVE ENOUGH MONEY TO FUND A MILITATY MACHINE WELL ENOUGH TO MOVE TO WORLD DOMINATION,BUT NOT JUST US BUT A LARGE PART OF THE WORLD IS FUNDING THEIR ECOMONY. KEEP UP THE GOOD WORK BUY ,BUY,BUY ,AND YOU JUST MIGHT HAVE TO LEARN THE LANUAGE OF CHINA


and then claim that it was not intended to scare or make people feel guilty??? Darn.... I hate to see what you say when you try...

Better learn chinese because they are trying ( or will be soon even if they were not) to dominate the world. Not though the use of military as it could not fund one ( actually China has one of the biggest armys in the world) but through worldwide economic development

Uhhhh???? I'm done that just goes to prove those that get it do and those that don't never will


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## archer0545 (Nov 28, 2004)

Ok, how much speed will I pick up with one of these widgets on my bow and where can I get one? And by the way, the thread was only in response to someone asking if Concept risers were made in Hungary. So, enough with the economics, how about a little ..........archerytalk?


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## Hit-em (Oct 3, 2002)

I don't know how this got posted in the Manf. section, but since it is, I thought I'd respond to some of these so called economic experts. 
I find it interesting that these guys live in the manufacturing meccas of Neb & Austrailia. We all know how much manufacturing is done there.

First this idea that sending out jobs, technology & investments overseas is good for US citizens is the garbage that Wall Street & Corporate America has been able to convince some people that this a good thing.

I mean look at the benefits from this you can buy cheap products from Chinia, India & other foriegn countries Look how much buying power you get for your dollar. This a good thing right ?

Look at the fact that there will be more dock workers , sales clerks, workers in distribution centers. These are all highly skilled & highly paid jobs. Right ?

The idea that we are playing on a level playing field is complete nonsense. All you need to do is look at is the protectiive measures that are in place in our so called foriegn trading partners countries.

Private industry cannot compete against a state supported industry ie..The steel industry is a perfect example. 

When GM or Ford builds a plant in China they are required to have a Chinese partner in this endevor. Gee that's fair!!

I wonder how Toyota would feel if we had the same requirements here ??

The bottom line is, it has nothing to do with American workers who overall are the hardest working people in the world. All you need to look at the average number of hours Americans works versus the world.
To say that American workers can't compete is insulting!

No! we can't compete against someone who's idea of a good life is some meat in their rice bowl & now has plumbing & electricty.

We shouldn't have too!

I don't remember Americans suffering from not having cheap Chinese made goods at WalMart 30-40 years ago.

It all comes down to corporate profit margins nothing more nothing less!!
You can thank your people in Washington who have been bought out by the special interest groups & the money managers on Wall Street.

It all comes down greed & the hell with the American.

The reality is that we have lost & that we are now on a downward spiral. This will be beginning where future generations will not be able to do better then their parents as has been the case for the last 200 years .

It a damm shame !


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## centerx (Jun 13, 2002)

Hit em.....

Yep .. Your right no argument there.. Obvious disparities in export and imports. And no I'm not brainwashed by any type of governmental propaganda or special interest groups. In fact I think the Government has many trade and manufacturing issues quite wrong...

However I have tried to demonstrate over and over again how a strict "buy USA policy" would not be the solution to the problem... Those that disagree have not offered one piece of evidence were I would be wrong.. In fact they can not. 

For example your Toyota Example... I guess they may not like it .. They may have never opened up that plant in the US... In fact I guess hundreds of Americans would not be working in those plants now... I guessing those same workers have some benefits as well.. I'm guessing Ford should not open a plant in China based on there requirements. I guess Fords profits should go down. Don't worry they can stay at home and make up the difference .. We'll all buy US even if it cost more won't we ?? What if were wrong and Ford starts laying off workers?? 

As far as my qualifications to discuss economic issues.. Might just surprise you. However I will admit I am not a business owner.. I don't completely understand all the complexities of small business ownership. However I have been a partner in making many succeed with sound financial advise


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## Panterashooter (Nov 27, 2004)

O.k. I'm for foreign trade but equal trade. China has cust U.S. jobs and jobs from other countries to. China's money is said to be 40% under valued. They export to the U.S. far more than they import by several billion $ that can not be good for the U.S. economy if it continues. There are to many U.S. factories shutting down. Rubbermaid gone to China. More example at Wal-Mart try to frind U.S. made product in there it's getting harder and harder


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## concept (Aug 27, 2003)

Marcus said:


> *Ignorant racist propaganda *


Thanks for your input


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## Hit-em (Oct 3, 2002)

Centrex...

In regards to Toyota you seemed to miss the point that the reason Toyota builds plants here in the US is not to give Americans jobs, but to garnder further market share.

The difference in quality between a Toyota & a Ford is almost nill. Most opinions on American versus Japanese quality is based upon a percieved opinions. 
Facts don't substantiate this.

The biggest advantages the Japanese have here in the states over the domestic auto industry is that they have a workforce that has not been indoctrinated by the union. This gives them more flexability in how to use their workforce.
Plus, They don't have the Hugh overhead the domestic industry has in regards to retirement benefits. 

I'm a firm believer in trickle down economics. I think one of the greatest things to happen in this century for the American worker was when Henry Ford decided to pay workers $5 a day to work in his plants. 
This created instant consumers for his products , plus it created peripheral industries such as road construction, gas stations, hotels , resturants the list goes on.

When you're only concern is profit margins you become short sighted & blinded to the long term effect of not developing & maintaining consumers.

I remember something that was said to me years ago that is ringing true today. " The only thing that has True Value is something that is manufactured" 
Think about it.

I believe American Industry & the American Government has a responsibilty to maintain & develope American consumers . This is where America will truely benefit, not buying foreign products that flood our markets with nothing in place to protect our markets or industry. 

We have to look at this long term.

Do we want to maintain our American way of life ??

Or do we want to be able to buy our kids a toy at Walmart that was made in China that only the Chinese & Walmart will truely benefit from ?

To be honest with you I believe it's over. America lost!!

Every segment of the American economy is losing ground from manufacturing, livestock, banking ...etc, even the service industries are losing. Just call your internet provider for assistance & you'll get to talk to some guy who calls himself Tony somewhere in India.

I find it amazing that this is happening & we have people here in the US saying that this a good thing because it's a "World Economy" & we benefit from being a open market.

My question to these people is this...the countries that are benefiting from our lost, are their markets as open & fair as ours ?? I think not!

Please explain to us how they must be at disadvantage, because they can't enjoy the benefits of a open market like we here in the States enjoy.


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## Marcus (Jun 19, 2002)

I have no issue with concept defending their riser's country of origin and believe that they should. To then end that with the BS that he posted about the chinese using American companies to take over the world and that soon we will all be speaking chinese is just insulting and pathetic. It's this kind of fear mongering that hurts relations between races and countries. My wife is half chinese and that half of her family wants the same thing you and I do. Happy comfortable lives. Posts like this simply promote dislike between everyone. And the worst part was, it was not needed to support his product. 

I have never shot one of his bows, and would love to check one out, but it's not aimed at me (I like low letoff). I have no opinion on the quality of his product and and sure it is up there with the rest. 

Get over the Magnock debate will you. Geez man shoot what you want. Buy your parts where you want. I would have expected more from you on this one. 




Looking_4_X's said:


> *OK I'm at a loss... this thread started as a reply to another thread which accused Concept of buying in bw parts from outside the US, Concept defended their bows by saying all parts are US produced...so they only offer defence. If a company for what ever reason decides to only use a certain countries produce then who are you to start saying what they should or should not do, unless you are a co-owner.
> 
> 
> Now I see that some familiar names are setting up as another have a go session, in fact some have been following posts all over the place and trying to put their boot in, only to end up looking like the idiots. I remember some of these doing exactly the same a couple of years ago against Magnock, they lost the plot then too. *


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## archer0545 (Nov 28, 2004)

Once again, how about a little discusssion on archery. Economics is interesting but there are better places to have that debate. The truth is that Concept is trying to support America. That is a nice idea and very admirable. The truth of the matter is that his support is a drop in the bucket and it would take a lot more than his efforts to make much of a difference. The world is developing into a global economy and the wheels are in motion. It will not be stopped by sentiment no matter how strong because it would take too much cooperation. It is not going to happen because, like it or not, the dollar rules and for the most part people are going to buy the most they can for the least they can spend. It will continue this way with each succesive generation. As for my qualifications to speak on economics I have a bachelors degree in Business for what it is worth. Personally, I would rather concentrate on some of the things that are within our power to change such as introducing new people , old and young, to the sport of archery. The most interesting thing about our sport is the variety and innovative concepts that abound from the different manufacturers. I applaud the dedication of all of the manufactureres and encourage everyone to participate and help promote the sport. How boring it would be if everyone shot the same thing.


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## centerx (Jun 13, 2002)

Close Hit em ... Close.....

Actually there are all kind of reason manufactures chose to set up manufacturing in foreign lands. Cheap labor ( not what Toyota is doing ) Cost of exporting and shipping once it arrives to the foreign shores. Closer to raw materials. Avoiding limits on Exports by established goverments .. For example maybe the US only allows 1.2 million Toyota imports.. But if you want to establish manufacturing in the US ... give US workers Jobs... Pay taxes and feed back 10 fold to local economy's then please come and sell as many as you can.. In fact open 10 plants...

Whether It's a ford Company employing 10 thousand workers or a Toyota Company... Does a person really care?? I'm mean really what is the difference ???

Ford imports a lot of foreign parts and assembles them here in the US ..... Toyota does the same.... Both companies employs 10,000.00 workers... If successful the stockholders of both companies get rich ( both have foreign and domestic investors) As far as retirement plans I can not comment but my instincts tell me that they do.. If not that really is not a good argument as many Domestic firms do not have retirement plans but yet there are retirement plan opportunities that any Worker can fund on there own...In fact many domestic retirement plans have gone belly - up and actual hurt the workers... 

But What do I know There is no manufacturing here in Nebraska.... Wait down the street there is a large Plastics Manufacturing Plant that the president did visit and do a televised press confrence from about 18 months ago...

Then there is one of the largest manufactureres of Paper bags up the road aways... OHH and the cardboard box manufacturer close to them as well don't want to forget them.. Then the Herman Nut factory... OHHH Brand Hydralics .. Makes a lot of Hydralic goods that they export all over the world... There's more but these are only the ones I can drive to in under 10 Minites from were I work.


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## Hit-em (Oct 3, 2002)

Centrex...
Not to be insulting to you & your responses, but you're making it quite clear that you have a very limited & naive view of what is going on in this country.

Do you actually think that Toyota builds a plant here in the US to be closer to raw materials ?? 
That statement is hilarious !!
Especailly after you state that they & Ford will import a lot of their parts & assmeblies.
Do you know that when Toyota & Honda decides to build a plant here in the states they also have their Japanese suppliers build plants to support them. In the process these suppliers are given sweetheart contracts from Toyota & Honda which enables them to go after the domestic manufacturers by lowering their prices & grabbing that part of the market. Thus driving their domestic competiors out of business. Once this happens up goes their price. It's a game that's been going on for the last 30 years.

Again I ask you is this what American suppliers can expect when GM or Ford builds a plant in China ?? 
Please answer the question ?
Or is it required that they support & develop Chinese companies ?
Do you know the answer ?

GM has stated that they plan on increasing their imported parts from 200 million a year to close to 3 billion in the next 5 years. Who do you think will lose on this ?

If you or anyone really think that the Japanese or Chinese or whoever has our interest at heart when they build their plants here in the US then I feel for you. You would be what they call a "Dumb American "

Why do you think comapny retirement plans have gone belly up & many comapanies no longer offer them ?? Come on think about it.
If you had a company in which over 40% of your gross income when to benefits for your retirerees. Do you think your comapany would be able to or want to build new facilities here in the states & have to hire union workers?

In regards to your examples of manufacturing in your area no offense but I had a good laugh on your expense. Sounds like you have a real smokestack industrial community there 

Keep thinking that it's OK not to have protective measures in place & when the time comes explain to your grand children that the best they can expect is a job working at a Walmart or some other menial job because we won't have a industrial base to support them.

All you need to do is ask the recent college graduates how the job market looks & how their future is looking to them ??

Enough said on this subject .

I wish you & your family the best for the holidays & I hope to God I'm wrong.


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## Magnockman (Jun 13, 2002)

Marcus said:


> *
> Get over the Magnock debate will you. Geez man shoot what you want. Buy your parts where you want. I would have expected more from you on this one. *


Now what would possess you to say that? Maybe because it $ucks that we possess the power over whom we will to sell to? As Jeff Foxworthy would say, “here’s your sign”!

Go spew on your own forum!


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## Bowhunter 4Life (Dec 19, 2003)

I need to agree with concept. I used to be a steel worker "used to be"! When N.A.F.T.A came along North American Free Trade agreement the imports of raw material flooded the market. They was shiping it to the States cheeper than we could make it a year later out of a job the whole plant shut down it employed 300 men some that was there 40 years. The were young and family's were poor so they quit shool and went to work to help out. When they locked the doors these guys had nothing some to young to retire some to poor. Not able to run computers or any other job skills what could they do. These guys was making 14.00 an hour. When no one would hire them because no job skills along came wal-mart come and work for us we dont have insurance not unless you pay for it. But we will pay you 6.00 an hour to work straight evenings or midnights. No retirement but you can buy in to our stocks. Yea the problem is there is alot of new jobs. BUT YOU ARE ONLY GOING TO MAKE 20.000 A YEAR IF YOU ARE LUCKY. I used to buy my boots from rocky boot outlet in Nelsonville Ohio the factory store. You watched hard working men and women making your boots now they are out of work to because some ritch ******* that owns rocky decided to have them made in china. I can hear him now "I can pay these workers to hand make my boots and guarntee them from defects and sell them for 125.00 or i can mass produce them in china and sell them for same price. I will not have to pay as much in workers comp. as much in vacation, as much in 401k as much in insurance. WOW I AM GOING TO MAKE MILLIONS WHEN I MOVE MY FACTORY OVER SEAS. The boots or most of them cost around 75.00 to make buy american workers and sell for 125.00 Now it cost around 26.00 to make and sell at same price. I would rather pay more and take care of us them pay to take care of foriegners. Our great president is already doing that. and its all coming to that any thing you buy any more says made in USA but if you look it will also say assembled in korea,china,bangledesh or some crap like that. examples stanley tape measures MADE IN USA then it says china on them. Our steel mills made steel now they are shuting down and all the steel comes from other countrys. Now i am a union boilermaker and can tell the difference in the steel it rusts faster and breaks at a weeker breaking strength becaus of the quality of the product. Go ahead and send all the high paying jobs over seas blue and white colar is going there we still have fast food resturants to work in that's what i want to do for the rest of my life suport a family of 4 at poverty rate. wake up america!


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## rcher (Dec 3, 2002)

Why can't we all just get along? Oh I know, go to- www.archerysite.net - they all get along there!


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## Marcus (Jun 19, 2002)

Magnockman said:


> *Now what would possess you to say that? Maybe because it $ucks that we possess the power over whom we will to sell to? As Jeff Foxworthy would say, “here’s your sign”!
> 
> Go spew on your own forum! *


 As I said, get over it and move on. Just makes you look bitter and pathetic. Shoot Magnocks or don't shoot em. Couldn't care less what other people do. 2 years after our original debate you are still whining about it. Very very sad.


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## walks with a gi (Oct 1, 2002)

Anyone know what the "mark up" is on foreign made goods after they pass through the retailer and after the U.S.A made goods pass through the retailer?? I know a man and his wife that make VERY nice outdoor craft items and sell them to a local retailer. The retailer marks them up 100%!!!! Will the future be heere in the U.S. that the middle man will be left out and the companies that make the products will sell direct at a much lower cost than what the retailer would sell at!!
I've read that an item made in the U.S. for $60.00, can be produced for $10.00 in Mexico and can be produced for $2.00 in China!!!


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## Jose Boudreaux (Oct 18, 2003)

> As Jeff Foxworthy would say, “here’s your sign”!


clarification- that would be Bill Engvall

Jeff is the ******* guy

you might NOT be a ******* if you mix up Jeff and Bill.  

so you are safe Magnockman....I am not....


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## Magnockman (Jun 13, 2002)

Jose Boudreaux said:


> *clarification- that would be Bill Engvall
> 
> Jeff is the ******* guy
> 
> ...



Hahhahaa you're right-- They all "sound" the same to me-- LOL


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## centerx (Jun 13, 2002)

I was explaining why companies might choose to move manufacturing to foreign shores. Raw materials are one of many reasons. Never did I say it was Toyotas. Nor can you say for sure what Toyotas reasoning was for the establishment of those plants as well. You can only speculate. Your speculation leads you to believe that it is an attempt to gain even more market share and indeed you could be right. It could also be that Toyota was well happy with there US sales and wanted to build more profit into their product. It could also be for more efficient distribution of their product and /or an attempt to bring new product to market faster….

Whatever the reason lets pretty much agree to one general “given” all or most companies are in business to gain as much market share and to be as profitable as possible. It does not even need argument.. Yes that is the goal…

Yes I know that Plants are established in foreign lands to help supply domestic production. Would you expect otherwise??? Did you know that those same plants frequently supply US producers? Did you know some domestic supplies are also supplying both companies as well?? I will admit that the “deals” worked out for the foreign firms producing abroad however are frequently the sweeter deal. 

As far as what happens when the roles are reversed. No I cannot answer the question you ask. My “expertise” does not extend to foreign economics. I doubt your do as well… Oh sure anybody can quote facts that’s the easy part. The hard part is understanding these fact and there impact. The point is Jobs… Benefits….quality of life ….. Don’t care who has who’s best interest at heart as long as the net benefit is jobs, benefits and quality of life …. Do you think we have the Chinese workers best interest at heart working for those cheap wages?? Nope but we sure do use them. 

Like I have said before… The situation should and could be greatly improved but it means sacrifices.. Sacrifices that most are not willing to make including you. Not using the cheap labor that the world is using as a whole in no way helps the US stay competitive with anybody. Not that it’s right but it’s a fact. The fact is that situation exist because the average US workers requires a certain wage.. because of a certain standard of living The very things we love about America are the very things that hurt us being competitive outside of it … Again you can not overcome these facts you can only work within them. Or you can change those facts. History has shown that those facts will change on there own. 

I’m sorry that the diverse manufacturing base that I can for the most part literally ride a bike to does not meet your criteria of an industrial “smokestack” area. Or do I pretend that it is. But then insulting the “menial” labor workers or those from a diverse and international active manufacturing base an an economically healthy Midwest town and only quoting facts to a problem with no real understanding of supply, demand, trickle down economics. Offering no real solutions only complaints and then calling me naive ??????


Please


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