# Second draw length



## ron w (Jan 5, 2013)

I guess you need to explain what you mean by, "second" draw length.


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## mike 66 (Jan 21, 2010)

SECOND....hummmm you can measure all you want, but that dont mean its right.......I GUESS RON HES GOT A LOOP AND HES CONFUSED...


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## Camp (May 30, 2010)

1/2 shorter


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## mike 66 (Jan 21, 2010)

1/2 SHORTER...??? what does that mean?


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## aread (Dec 25, 2009)

If you mean D-loop length, it a little bit trial & error. It's what positions your draw side elbow in line with the arrow & where you have good leverage to execute your release. 

You need to be sure to engage your back muscles as soon as possible during your draw and keep them engaged thought the shot. AND you need to be sure that you keep your bow shoulder is down.


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## hrtlnd164 (Mar 22, 2008)

I believe the OP is looking for a way to measure total spread at full draw position. Which would include way too many variables to be accurate IMO.


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## Rugby (Feb 13, 2003)

I heard Jack Wallace mention “second drawlength” on the series Bow Junky did with him setting up a Hoyt.
It was a term I had not come across before and was wondering if it was one commonly used in the US. Looking at the responses it would appear not so much.

Nuts and bolts touched on it in one of his posts with the improvement in shooting a student had made by only changing the length of the d-loop or as Jack Wallace eluded to, the second drawlength.

In essence I guess you could say it is your d-loop length but I was wondering if there was more to it than just loop length. 
Let’s say there are two draw lengths to consider not just the bow draw length plus the loop length.

Do you set the first draw length from the throat of the grip to the shooters face, be happy with that then set the “second draw length” from the anchor point and rear arm/elbow position and the string? Simply put the d-loop length but do you get a better result for the shooter by looking at either side of the d-loop separately? 
If so then what is the best way to determine the “second drawlength”, the best position for the shooter and how do you quantify this position as being correct/optimum.

Thanks for the love Mike66. You are right I am confused, confused you didn’t recommend blank bale and bridge as an answer to my question.


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## Bees (Jan 28, 2003)

Rugby said:


> I heard Jack Wallace mention “second drawlength” on the series Bow Junky did with him setting up a Hoyt.
> It was a term I had not come across before and was wondering if it was one commonly used in the US. Looking at the responses it would appear not so much.
> 
> Nuts and bolts touched on it in one of his posts with the improvement in shooting a student had made by only changing the length of the d-loop or as Jack Wallace eluded to, the second drawlength.
> ...



If I get my release elbow up to high my sight will go low and I cannot raise it.
If I get my elbow to low then it is more difficult to get though my shot.
so I select my d loop length to land my release elbow in my slot 
where I can hold on the target easily without having to force anything.
and where I can get through my shot without a bunch of unwanted movement.


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## Rugby (Feb 13, 2003)

Thanks for that Bees, very helpful


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## Ray Ray (Aug 1, 2005)

Is this what he is referring to:http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showth...ht=draw+length


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## Rugby (Feb 13, 2003)

Hi Ray Ray,

Thanks but unfortunately the link won't work for me.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

Rugby said:


> Hi Ray Ray,
> 
> Thanks but unfortunately the link won't work for me.


Hello Rugby.

I am working with one of my online students on this VERY EXACT thing,
as we speak.


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## nuts&bolts (Mar 25, 2005)

From my student...the numbers refer to experimental d-loop lengths.

So I've shot the following loops since standing up straight:
0.63 = Horrendous
0.98 = light bulb went off! 
0.85 = POI moved slightly low/left compared to 0.98. No big diff in feel. 
1.01 = POI moved up slightly from 0.98. Float smoother.


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## Ray Ray (Aug 1, 2005)

http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=2195266&highlight=secondary
hope this fixed it


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## Rugby (Feb 13, 2003)

Thanks Ray Ray, good information there


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## RCR_III (Mar 19, 2011)

Thanks for posting that Ray Ray, I was going to put that link in here too. Rugby it's just a trial and error thing to do. But once you get it set right you'll feel much much more comfortable and your shots will be more consistent. If you don't know what it's supposed to look like as a starting point N&B can work with you and get it squared away. Lot's of knowledge to be had there.


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## Rugby (Feb 13, 2003)

The original question was how the best way to measure "second draw length" which turned out to be a term not many had heard of.
Second draw length has been described as the distance from the where the string stops on the first draw length (where the bow is pulled back to) and your release at anchor. Some have simply called this your d-loop length.

This is all very straightforward and apparently simple. I keep hearing that a 1/16" of DL can make all of the difference. Recently some have claimed a single turn in a buss cable has made all of the difference to DL and grouping.
These small variations in DL and bow tune appear to me to be too small to "measure" by looking so it would appear these things are determined by "feel" and grouping. 

To measure second DL the first DL must in theory be set correctly otherwise the second will be errant. Bees and Ray Ray's link have gone someway into explaining methods to measure second DL. 
First and second DL are significant factors in reaching your potential in archery. I guess I was looking for a little more info. 

Coaching via pictures has limitations, while you can critique on how it should look there is so much variation in someones technique to "hide" DL. I cannot tell from a picture how much "tension" is in the shot. I am not sure anyone can.


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## RCR_III (Mar 19, 2011)

If you're coaching or being coached by pictures it's more than just a picture of you at full draw. There's activities and tests to perform and there are certain ones that will show form/drawlength flaws that can help figure out what to do next. Really, even if you are standing right infront of someone when they are coming to full draw and going through a shot routine, you can't tell how much tension is in a shot.

Look at Reo for example. When his shot breaks his arm moves maybe five inches back because that's all the length he has available to move, but I bet he exerts more pulling force than most on his shot because of how he's described it and looking at it. 

Then take someone like Jesse. When his shot breaks his bow arm jumps forward and his release arm comes back with a lot of movement. But during his shot, he relaxes his arm and picks up the slack using his back muscles. He may or may not pull with more force than Reo, but to look at them most might pick Jesse to be pulling harder because of the movement on his shot. 

The thing to look at is that both archer's arrows are going down the middle and scoring very well. Why's that? Because the bow's set up, arrow's set up, and body's agnment work for their shot. It works for them. That's all the coaching is doing. Finding your true potential. Finding what works for your body. Nobody will be 100% the same. But their results can be just as good as the next if their true potential is unlocked. This is what results based tuning is. Finding your true potential. Finding what works for your body. 

PM me if you would like,and I can go into more detail on measuring the secondary draw length. And if you like I can go into more detail with Primary draw length as well. I can also give you some help on what to look for and who to get you to the next level if that's what you're seeking.


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## Rugby (Feb 13, 2003)

Hi RCR III,

Thanks for the info and the kind offer. I will PM you in the next couple of days.


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## ron w (Jan 5, 2013)

there is only one "draw length"....and it is "your draw length"...... the bow, at full draw, and anything on the string, including the release, has to fit properly between your bow hand and your anchor point, which is "your draw length".


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## Rugby (Feb 13, 2003)

I'll tell Jack he's wrong


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## RCR_III (Mar 19, 2011)

ron w said:


> there is only one "draw length"....and it is "your draw length"...... the bow, at full draw, and anything on the string, including the release, has to fit properly between your bow hand and your anchor point, which is "your draw length".


My only question I pose for you is this, because I see where you're coming from with your statment, is when you order a bow they ask you what draw length you need it in. Based on what you're saying there is "only one" draw length. So with how myself, Jack Wallace, and others look at this, my bow's draw length(Primary Draw Length) is set at 28.00 dead on and then I get the best groupings out of my d loop(Secondary Draw Length) being 15/16. That's a total lenght of 28 15/16. Based on you saying you only have one draw length including the bow at full draw and anything on the string including the release, what would you order the draw lenght in?

This is where I come up with my "two" draw lengths. You have your bow's draw length. Then you have the length of your d loop that, with your release, will give you the best groupings. These make up your "overall" draw length which is what you are referring to. I'm just breaking them down into their two respective categories.


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## ron w (Jan 5, 2013)

yah, I know exactly what you mean, and that is a confusing issue, bourne out of the fact that no two bow manufactures conform to any one rule about their draw lengths to begin with.
that's the exact reason I make the statement I did. I simply forget about what the modules say the bows draw length should be and find the length that fits "my draw length". i'll simply tell the guy to put a random length module that is close to what I think might fit, and start drawing and changing modules, until it's right.
i'm 27 and about a quarter. so I pick a 27 or 28 inch module and go from there, paying no attention to the specific module spec, other than one number will give either shorter or longer length than another number, for the bow i'm trying..
with length specific cams, it can become a can of worms and a hassel for the guy that's selling you the bow, but you can extrapolate a "correct cam size", by trying one that is close to what your draw length is, knowing that any cam you pick, will most likely need a specific string length to fit you correctly and that either long or short, you can adjust by string length within reason. it then becomes an issue of the way you want the draw cycle to feel.
it still boils down to "one draw length, that is your draw length", because, for any given bow, there is still only one cam size or mod size that will give you the length you have to have and the feel of the draw cycle you prefer, at the same time.


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## RCR_III (Mar 19, 2011)

I'm not sure you're understanding what I'm getting at. But to expand on what you wrote about. I just purchased a new Hoyt with Sprialx cams. Draw length specific. I like my bow's draw length to be dead on 28. I know Hoyt's spirals run about 1/4 inch long. So for me, I like more holding weight and less letoff. So I ordered the bow in 28. I'll twist the string to get it back to 28 and give myself a little bit more holding weight that way. 

If you would put your bow on a draw board once you find the draw length setting that contacts your facial anchor points the way you prefer and measure that length, you would then know what to do upon ordering a bow. No more guess work that way. Just talking with that manufacturer that will know their bows and asking how they will normally run from the factory will give you the knowledge you need to order one and save the hassel of changing and switching. 

Yes there's more to this than just that. You have to consider axle to axle lengths and how the string angle will be, but you will have a general idea based on the bow you have adjusted to your exact standards. 

My question from my previous post wasn't necessarily something I'm needing any help with. Just something to breed a different thought pattern to help you see the standpoint behind having two seperate parts of your overall draw length. Different applications for different situations. It's just another way to micro tune on yourself and equipment to unlock a true potential and shoot the most forgiving and highest score that you're able to accomplish. Plus it gives you a game plan on bow set up when starting from scratch.


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