# I can't believe I SUCK



## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

After multiple years of being able to show up and just shoot x's over and over I am finding myself in a weird place, I suck.

I have chosen to actually be a guy here on archery talk that has given a look into my accuracy and accomplishments over the last few years and I don't want to stop now, I had to take off 3 months for bicep tendon surgery and just started shooting again. I have no pain and can shoot for a hour without any stiffness later on but I am definitely in restart mode. 

I do plan on learning from this experience so that when shooters go through recovery I can give them positive ways to get back up to speed, for me right now I am just focusing on smooth execution and enjoying the time on the shooting range but seeing some shots in the blue on a 5-spot target is simply weird.

Yesterday I would have 4 inside out x's and then see a arrow in the blue which totally freaked me out when the execution was decent and no flinch, I started to doubt myself a little but I slowed down and noticed that my indoor arrows with 250 grain points were depressing my limb driver launcher just enough to send my arrows into the blue out the bottom. My limb driver was set up to a 3d arrow with only a 120 grain point when i had my injury. This issue caused me to really doubt my shooting for over two days and I hadn't said anything here because I was so embarrassed to be shooting in the blue. 

If I didn't trust my execution so much I would have probably just accepted the blue hits as I just am not very good right now but that confidence allowed me to look for something and I saw it. What really troubles me is how easy it was for me to let doubt creep into my brain over the last couple days, I am truly disappointed in myself for that when it was a mechanical issue.


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## RCR_III (Mar 19, 2011)

There's a reason the best are the best. They analyze each shot and break it apart. Then, when something goes wrong they see it and correct it quicker than a normal shooter. That's why I wrote my "Next Level Practicing" article. It brings that side out and gives a new way of thinking over the shot. 

There's lots of instances where it is the shooter for sure, but when you can follow a routine and know what you're capable of and really feel a shot, instead of looking at a result, then you can decipher what actually is you, or the equipment. 

Good luck on the road to recovery and getting back into normal form. It's a bummer, but you'll get back to it.


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## LMacD (Mar 16, 2015)

Funny how that happens [self doubt]. I'm far from being an advanced archer but I am a professional guitarist [Berklee College of Music grad], so this post caught my attention, although analogously. 

I've run into these moments of self doubt in my musical life and looking back, I'm astounded how fast I would ascribe something that apparently went horribly wrong with my technique to, like you say, "I can't believe I suck!". It took me quite a while to get to the place as a musician where I could self diagnose these moments of suckage, often to realize that it was something material. Best example, a pick that had become worn and slightly abrasive, not releasing from the string as smoothly as it should. Or, strings that had become slightly gunky close to the picking hand, causing friction. In either case, it would completely mess with my coordination, point being that because I wasn't aware of those simple causes, and because I didn't have the confidence in my skills that I do now, I wasn't aware enough to say "I know I'm not *that* bad - I just know it, so the cause has to be something else in the system".

That said, there are times when actual technique is weak due to a lengthy down time [I spent close to three months in China a bunch of years ago and didn't have a guitar], but it came back pretty quick. At first, I felt like a beginner - literally - but within two weeks, I was shredding Mamlsteen solos again. Doubtless you'll be back to one hole groups in no time and sharing the full "ride" with us


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## aread (Dec 25, 2009)

Before you come down too hard on yourself, be sure it's not equipment related. Here is one of my recent experiences:
http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=3171609

Normally, I assume all problems are equipment related. It's just that 99.9% of my problems are caused by the big nut on the release.


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## dmacey (Mar 27, 2015)

It's normal to suck, IMO, after a break particularly if it was for an injury. Try a layoff of almost 20 years and see how bad one sucks after that lol. It is definitely very deflating to the ego, but in my view, it's nothing to be concerned about. In my case, I know how to make a good shot, it's just a matter of a) remembering how to do it and b) getting back into a physical condition that allows me to do it again. 

To me, there's nothing cosmic mentally that has to happen either - it's just a matter of getting on with it and building up my shot (and upper body) again. Did it before, I can do it again.... I hope... 

DM


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## rattlinman (Dec 30, 2004)

Na, it's you. You do suck! :wink:

Glad to see you back to shooting brother.


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

Welcome to the Ward of Recovery I know only too well......


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## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

I just finished a nice 2 hour non stop session, I shot over a hundred arrows easily and never got tired. This was the first day that I allowed myself to shoot a higher volume and it really helped me to start feeling the little things in my shooting that make me accurate, I did miss quite a few x's in the first hour of shooting but in the last 30 or so minutes I really settled in and almost all of my arrows were inside out so that was a nice end to the day.

One of the little things that I had forgotten is how I enjoy aiming at a 5-spot target, I shoot a .19 pin that is green and I like to sit it just below the dark x. I then sight my bow in so that the arrow hits just above my pin dead center. I do this because it narrows down my aiming location, when I aim at the center I find myself getting lost in there floating around but when I put my pin on the bottom edge of the dark x so it is barely touching but the x is visible this seems to really tighten up my aiming and the inside out x's start adding up. I had forgot this method and it took me almost 2 weeks of shooting to remember it.


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## SILVERWOLF_73 (Apr 8, 2007)

that's a good idea thanks for sharing


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## Cbfastcar (May 19, 2015)

i took two months of shooting off this summer and when i came back to shoot league i was all over the place and just now i'm starting to get back what i had so i would say its the time you took off just keep practicing and make sure you don't develop bad habits and you will be back shooting those perfect scores in no time.


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## sharkred7 (Jul 19, 2005)

Sometimes it is the equipment, sometimes the nut behind the bow, and as I found out today it can be both. 

I moved my peep slightly down today as at times I would find myself looking through the bottom of the peep and have to try to set up that wouldn't happen. My groups had been slightly tall but I have been averaging 50 Inside out blue face and 25 babies on the vegas. 

So I moved my peep down maybe a 1/16 and wow was that nice. Shot a 5 spot round, first game 20X 16 inside out. Second game 17X with my shots all creeping up until I blew 3 out the top while I knew I was executing good shots. Soooo, long story short, I moved my peep (which is not tied in, just above and below) but never moved my serving so he peep migrated back up to where it was and my shots all went high. After I missed my third X I looked at my setup and found he peep back where it started. Slid it down tightened the serving and pounded out the rest of the game hardly ever touching a line. 

Right now I am shooting the best I have shot in my life and it keeps getting better so when I missed three X like that I knew something was wrong. It was equipment but it was my fault. I usually mark my peep so this cant happen and fully serve it in but I was experimenting and learned a valuable lesson.

John


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## LMacD (Mar 16, 2015)

Padgett said:


> ...I like to sit it just below the dark x. I then sight my bow in so that the arrow hits just above my pin dead center. I do this because it narrows down my aiming location, when I aim at the center I find myself getting lost in there floating around but when I put my pin on the bottom edge of the dark x so it is barely touching but the x is visible this seems to really tighten up my aiming and the inside out x's start adding up. I had forgot this method and it took me almost 2 weeks of shooting to remember it.


Ok, this is interesting...I'm glad you mentioned this. I did a lot of rifle shooting as a kid, started *really* young shooting with my dad at the club and got to train informally a bit with a former Bisley champ [Bob Barwise]...all to say, by the time I was 11 or 12, I got pretty darned good at it if I do say so myself. Your comment reminded me that some of my best shooting was with a rear aperture and a front post, which of course I'd hold just under the intended point of impact. All to say, for some reason, not sure why, it's never occurred to me to try this with the bow <slaps head> Given how much time I spent as a kid holding the sight under the x with a rifle, it rather makes sense that it's something I'm accustomed to. It also reminds me how much I enjoyed using both a front and rear aperture (on my other rifle), which I haven't yet tried with a bow. 

Great post! 

Question: do you do this with your 3D setup as well?


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## WhitBri (Jan 30, 2007)

Padgett said:


> I just finished a nice 2 hour non stop session, I shot over a hundred arrows easily and never got tired. This was the first day that I allowed myself to shoot a higher volume and it really helped me to start feeling the little things in my shooting that make me accurate, I did miss quite a few x's in the first hour of shooting but in the last 30 or so minutes I really settled in and almost all of my arrows were inside out so that was a nice end to the day.
> 
> One of the little things that I had forgotten is how I enjoy aiming at a 5-spot target, I shoot a .19 pin that is green and I like to sit it just below the dark x. I then sight my bow in so that the arrow hits just above my pin dead center. I do this because it narrows down my aiming location, when I aim at the center I find myself getting lost in there floating around but when I put my pin on the bottom edge of the dark x so it is barely touching but the x is visible this seems to really tighten up my aiming and the inside out x's start adding up. I had forgot this method and it took me almost 2 weeks of shooting to remember it.


How do you aim at a Vegas face. Reason I ask is I've tried circle reticles and others that focus is on the X. I always struggled some switching between the two faces. The blue face seemed easy as I could easily see the X but when I went to the Vegas face I struggled as I couldn't see the X on that face as well or at all. Shooting a 4x lens. Went to a dot and that seems to work but sometimes miss the thoughtless aiming a circle or truespot lens gave me. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## cbrunson (Oct 25, 2010)

LMacD said:


> Ok, this is interesting...I'm glad you mentioned this. I did a lot of rifle shooting as a kid, started *really* young shooting with my dad at the club and got to train informally a bit with a former Bisley champ [Bob Barwise]...all to say, by the time I was 11 or 12, I got pretty darned good at it if I do say so myself. Your comment reminded me that some of my best shooting was with a rear aperture and a front post, which of course I'd hold just under the intended point of impact. All to say, for some reason, not sure why, it's never occurred to me to try this with the bow <slaps head> Given how much time I spent as a kid holding the sight under the x with a rifle, it rather makes sense that it's something I'm accustomed to. It also reminds me how much I enjoyed using both a front and rear aperture (on my other rifle), which I haven't yet tried with a bow.
> 
> Great post!
> 
> Question: do you do this with your 3D setup as well?






WhitBri said:


> How do you aim at a Vegas face. Reason I ask is I've tried circle reticles and others that focus is on the X. I always struggled some switching between the two faces. The blue face seemed easy as I could easily see the X but when I went to the Vegas face I struggled as I couldn't see the X on that face as well or at all. Shooting a 4x lens. Went to a dot and that seems to work but sometimes miss the thoughtless aiming a circle or truespot lens gave me.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



This is very close to figure eight aiming, which is natural for most people that started out with open sights. I used to do a lot of pistol shoots with my sights set up to sit below the target and really struggled with switching to covering the X with a bow. 

I think a lot of people fight this. I have tried many different styles of dots and pins and found that I am always going to sit better slightly low. What I've done is size my dot to stay inside the yellow (or white) and still keep the arrow in the X even if it sits just a hair low, which it usually does. If it freezes high it will still catch a ten but that rarely happens. Maybe once every two or three games.


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

All during my Field shooting I used the figure 8 aiming and did really well. When I went to centering in the bull's eye for Indoors....I sucked. 
Back when I competed with pistols I used the figure 8 aiming and did super in close range slow fire (set two club records) and in 200 Meter Silhouette (won High Overall End of the Year the first year I competed).

Still can't believe anyone can float their pin inside the X ring of a 5 spot or 10 ring of a Vegas Face. I've used a .010" pin and it still covers both.


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## grantmac (May 31, 2007)

SonnyThomas said:


> Still can't believe anyone can float their pin inside the X ring of a 5 spot or 10 ring of a Vegas Face. I've used a .010" pin and it still covers both.



Extension and magnification play a big role in sight picture.

As for hold position I am working on a 6 o'clock because that is my mentally strong place coming from a barebow background. I either hold slightly low or get stuck high. 

Grant


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## dmacey (Mar 27, 2015)

SonnyThomas said:


> All during my Field shooting I used the figure 8 aiming and did really well. When I went to centering in the bull's eye for Indoors....I sucked.
> Back when I competed with pistols I used the figure 8 aiming and did super in close range slow fire (set two club records) and in 200 Meter Silhouette (won High Overall End of the Year the first year I competed).
> 
> Still can't believe anyone can float their pin inside the X ring of a 5 spot or 10 ring of a Vegas Face. I've used a .010" pin and it still covers both.


Same here, I can't do a pin on either of those faces for some reason. I'm actually having my best success most recently with a ring and 3x lens - my brain seems to work pretty well at managing concentric circles, especially on a Vegas face. On a NFAA single or 5 spot, the ring does get a little dark.... 

The figure-8 method I've never tried, though, sounds intriguing....

DM


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

dmacey said:


> Same here, I can't do a pin on either of those faces for some reason. I'm actually having my best success most recently with a ring and 3x lens - my brain seems to work pretty well at managing concentric circles, especially on a Vegas face. On a NFAA single or 5 spot, the ring does get a little dark....
> 
> The figure-8 method I've never tried, though, sounds intriguing....
> 
> DM


To me stacking the pin to the bull's eye gives something to focus on instead of trying to keep the pin inside some damn circle. Ain't no circles on a 3D target. Pin is right there doing nothing and I just shoot.


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## ILOVE3D (Feb 4, 2009)

Padgett said:


> I just finished a nice 2 hour non stop session, I shot over a hundred arrows easily and never got tired. This was the first day that I allowed myself to shoot a higher volume and it really helped me to start feeling the little things in my shooting that make me accurate, I did miss quite a few x's in the first hour of shooting but in the last 30 or so minutes I really settled in and almost all of my arrows were inside out so that was a nice end to the day.
> 
> One of the little things that I had forgotten is how I enjoy aiming at a 5-spot target, I shoot a .19 pin that is green and I like to sit it just below the dark x. I then sight my bow in so that the arrow hits just above my pin dead center. I do this because it narrows down my aiming location, when I aim at the center I find myself getting lost in there floating around but when I put my pin on the bottom edge of the dark x so it is barely touching but the x is visible this seems to really tighten up my aiming and the inside out x's start adding up. I had forgot this method and it took me almost 2 weeks of shooting to remember it.


Sounds like you don't suck as much as you might lead us to believe Padgett. Just wondering, what poser lense do you use and how far out from the riser is your scope? I find that makes a big difference for me as far as being able to see actually where my pin is on the target. A 4x is just not enough and a 6X works good for me but I don't have my scope all the way extended. I think it adds just too much movement for my liking.


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## dmacey (Mar 27, 2015)

SonnyThomas said:


> To me stacking the pin to the bull's eye gives something to focus on instead of trying to keep the pin inside some damn circle. Ain't no circles on a 3D target. Pin is right there doing nothing and I just shoot.


Well, that's kind of what I like about a ring - I can see the 10 ring inside of it and I can focus directly on it, the subconscious (when I let it) manages keeping the ring-on-ring thing going... But I see what you mean about 3D targets, tho. Interesting....

DM


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## jim p (Oct 29, 2003)

Bows and equipment are pathetic. You have to do everything exactly the same just to hit where you want. Hand grenades work even if you are just close.


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## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

I am a 3d guy so all of my training has always been structured around that, I have used big black dots that covered the entire white area and other methods but in the end I only had one bow and with the overlap of 3d and indoor seasons I always just ended up shooting with my .19 green pin.

Now I have always noticed that when I put up a golf tee at 20 yards I could shoot and either hit it or be right next to it and it was really easy to aim at the small golf tee in the target but a bit x ring on a 5-spot target causes me trouble because my pin has to much room to wander around in there and I can't really apply the Aim Small Miss Small type of float. So for me I can remember a few years ago where I simply picked the 6-oclock position of the 10 ring on vegas or the 5-spot target and I treated it as a shelf, I simply set my green .19 pin on the shelf and let it float nice and small right there. It usually forces me to set my sight on 22 or 23 yards to get the arrow to hit the half inch higher safely in the center of the x or 10 ring. I like it down there because I can see my pin sitting on the shelf of the 10 ring line but I don't have to stare at it. I can just focus on the center of the x and watch my arrow hit right there. 

In fact I am glad that we have had this discussion because I was looking at the dark x and trying to touch my pin to the bottom of it instead of letting my pin sit on the shelf so when I get to shoot tomorrow I will remind myself of the process. The pin is still in the same position but it is how I mentally put it there that is what is different because when my pin is sitting on the shelf at 6-oclock the top of the pin touches the bottom of the x. 

So someone asked about how I deal with a vegas target, well the process for sitting the pin on the shelf should tell you, I can't see the x ring on a vegas with a 4x lens but I know that when my pin is sitting on the shelf the arrow is going to hit right there.


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## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

By the way I don't aim this way when shooting 3d, when shooting 3d I normally can't see the 12 ring especially on a 3d course and I have discussed before I take a mental picture of my sight pin on the 12 ring perfectly centered on the 12 ring, I take this picture after looking through my binos and with my naked eye so that when I come to anchor I am not searching for a location to put my pin. I simply look through my peep and I want to see that same mental picture where my pin is perfect.

This is a beyond awesome method for aiming at the 12 ring when you don't own a freaking asa range, the guys that own a range already know where the 12 ring is at so they can aim at it even without using the binos. That is how I came up with this mental picture method, I was laying in bed cussing them for having the money to buy a range and practice judging and shooting them and I came up with the method.


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

I don't where it's at and probably lost with the jerk changing my computer, but..... Terry Wunderle article. He suggested using brown grocery bags (days of old ) and using a #2 lead pencil (not quite old, but) to draw the point zones of 3D targets. So, you cut out a 3D type body. A #2 lead pencil does not make a line easy to see. So have you learn where the point zones are. Mental imagery. And we don't play any more, not that I've seen. It's all serious.

Can't remember where we were at, but I was playing around, making "clocks." I'd do this from 20, 25 and 30 yards. Melvin, old friend, went with me to pull arrows and he said; "You know, you're driving those guys nuts." He pointed and I looked. Must have been a dozen guys standing at the bleachers.

And wasn't too long ago I shot some 3D centers using the stacking method, stacking the pin to the tube hole.


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## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

I win a lot of local tournaments and on the warm up range a lot of guys watch me warm up to see how good I am and you can tell that some of them are talking about my groups sucking. Then one of them after a while will notice I am shooting at 40 yards and hitting 12 o'clock and 3 o'clock and 6 o'clock and 9 o'clock on the 2 inch orange dot every time and he will ask me if I am doing that on purpose. To them all they see is my arrows around the big orange dot and no group, to me I see a good day on the course.


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## montigre (Oct 13, 2008)

Very nice clock face there, Sonny!!


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

montigre said:


> Very nice clock face there, Sonny!!


Did that with a Scott Mongoose, single caliper index release. Wasn't until late December 2005 that switched to a thumb release and I'm still wondering why I switched. Wondering why I'm even trying to go with a hinge....


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

Padgett said:


> Now I have always noticed that when I put up a golf tee at 20 yards I could shoot and either hit it or be right next to it and it was really easy to aim at the small golf tee in the target but a bit x ring on a 5-spot target causes me trouble because my pin has to much room to wander around in there and I can't really apply the Aim Small Miss Small type of float. So for me I can remember a few years ago where I simply picked the 6-oclock position of the 10 ring on vegas or the 5-spot target and I treated it as a shelf, I simply set my green .19 pin on the shelf and let it float nice and small right there. It usually forces me to set my sight on 22 or 23 yards to get the arrow to hit the half inch higher safely in the center of the x or 10 ring. I like it down there because I can see my pin sitting on the shelf of the 10 ring line but I don't have to stare at it. I can just focus on the center of the x and watch my arrow hit right there.


Just in from another hinge session, but finished on a good note...with my ST360. Note the wild shots with a hinge :sad:

Here's something of what Padgett has. Took some shots just to calm down after the hinge session. Took some shots to find the right height. Relaxed, let the pin sit in the bottom of the bull's eye, X there to see, ease back tension and Presto.


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## montigre (Oct 13, 2008)

SonnyThomas said:


> Just in from another hinge session, but finished on a good note...with my ST360.


:thumbs_up:thumbs_up


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## dmacey (Mar 27, 2015)

Well getting back to the topic, which is whether Padgett sucks. I'd say it's pretty conclusive that he doesn't at this point. Just thought I'd bring it back round.......

DM


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

Well, I had it figure he'd have a little trouble and come out of it. I've been there, done that too many times with rebuilt bow hand, slipped and ruptured discs, carpal and cubical surgery, bruised left shoulder, and my recent release side shoulder overhaul. One of these days I'm going to get hurt and just not even try to come back.....Might start a flower garden....


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## TNMAN (Oct 6, 2009)

SonnyThomas said:


> ----One of these days I'm going to get hurt and just not even try to come back.....Might start a flower garden....


Double knock-out roses are almost effortless.


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## dmacey (Mar 27, 2015)

SonnyThomas said:


> Well, I had it figure he'd have a little trouble and come out of it. I've been there, done that too many times with rebuilt bow hand, slipped and ruptured discs, carpal and cubical surgery, bruised left shoulder, and my recent release side shoulder overhaul. One of these days I'm going to get hurt and just not even try to come back.....Might start a flower garden....


Well I can't shoot like yall even when something isn't busted in my chest or arms, so I wont whine about my injuries anymore. Well I will, just maybe a little less now...

DM


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## robbyreneeward (Jul 4, 2010)

Sorry to hijack, but Padgett please clear your inbox. Trying to pm you. Thank you sir


Sent from my iPhone 6 Plus using Tapatalk


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## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

Just noticed it was full so I cleaned it out.

I did get to shoot at the bow shop for about 40 minutes today and it was a weird day that in the past would have ended with me being very frustrated, but today it ended up being a nice short shooting session. Why was it weird? Because I showed up in a huge rush to even get there after getting some other things done from my honey do list, so I came in and within a few seconds I was shooting. I had a funny nervous energy in me for the first 15 shots from just trying to get to the range and I missed 4 or so x's, then I settled down and started feeling solid. 

The one thing that never did feel right today was my draw length, I have only been shooting for a few weeks now and I backed my limbs all the way out to reduce the draw weight as much as possible and I didn't check the draw length at all. I just feel long and today it felt horrible so hopefully on monday or tuesday I can check it.

Even though the draw length felt bad once I settled in by body felt really nice but my float was pretty big and here is why I was able to enjoy the session, I just allowed it to be a bigger float and executed smooth shots. This is something that in the past I would have never been able to do and I would have spent the entire session trying to fix the problem and more than likely been frustrated when I left. After my warm up I had 30 minutes of shooting that felt really smooth and productive and I only missed 2 x's during that part of the session and they were line lickers. 

I will say that right now I am not strong enough to focus on my firing engine and shoot well, if I focus on my release and what it is doing this is when I miss. When I focus on following through into the x I hit every time so next week I am going to do drills where I go from focusing on my release and then to my float and then to my follow through so that I can not be dependent or scared of certain parts of my shooting.


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## Mahly (Dec 18, 2002)

Not questioning anything here, but this has always been a pet peeve of mine.
I try to never use negatives to describe my shooting.
Padgett, while your shooting 'compared to your earlier success' might fit the description of "sucking", I gather there are many they wished they could shoot as well as you at your worst.
I have never found it useful to beat my self up over my level of performance in any given task.
Sure we all want to do better, and are disappointed at bad performances, but negative reinforcement never seems to work.
We've all seen the guy at the range that after a a bad shot or 2 strays beating himself up... the shots usually go downhill from there.
But when you see a great shooter totally blow a shot, and he goes and shoots a spider with the next arrow, and you can't tell by watching him which was in the blue, and which was the pinwheel, THAT to me is winning the mental game.
Watch a guy like Reo, shooting World Cup. You can't see in his face which are the Xs and which are the 8s

Never insult your shooting. Remember, when bad mouthing your shooting.... Your probably listening.

I will now scold myself in a PM for hijacking, LOL.

As you were


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## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

Awesome responses, I really liked mahly's the most so you other guys are going to have to try harder to top his.

You know right now my biggest issue isn't my surgery or my shooting performance or doubt, it is freaking life getting in the way of going to the range and simply putting in the time. My body is actually responding really well and each session of shooting I have a good piece of it where I feel normal and I shoot really good. But the last time I got to shoot with the thanksgiving week was saturday for 40 minutes and I am not even sure that I will get to shoot tomorrow. Deep down inside I know that once it settles down in a few days I will be able to go into the shop every day for a few weeks and things will start to smooth out but it is so hard to wait for the training to start working.


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## Lazarus (Sep 19, 2005)

Lanny Bassham's Principle of Mental Management #8. My paraphrase; you get what you speak (or picture.) Therefore you have to be careful how you talk. Not only that, the chapter (6) goes on to say be careful who you listen to, because hearing other peoples problems inadvertently can cause you to inherit the same problems. 

Again, my paraphrase but the concept is solid. 

A shooter has to make a choice, do you want to excel as a shooter, or do you want to be a shrink and try to fix everyone else? All of you all argue this line of thinking if you like, but this stuff is written in principle.


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## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

I'm 46 years old and I am still getting better but I refuse to walk around locally or nationally pretending like I know something that gives me a advantage and it is what is allowing me to win. In my own 3d group I have a good buddy who I have been shooting with and sharing everything I know for years and he has been closing the gap between us and to me watching him become a peer who even when I shoot my best is a awesome thing. I can't imagine holding back little tricks to yardage judging or shooting just so that I can have a advantage over him. 

That is one of my biggest gripes of Jeff Hopkins, I was in his pro am team back when I was a new asa shooter and a couple of us asked him yardage guessing questions and all he said was "Well, I am the best yardage guy in the world and always have been." He never would help us out at all with any methods, then a couple years later I waited around after a pro am to judge the team shoot ranges and a lot of pro shooters were doing the same thing and I saw him talking to another pro lady shooter and he told her that I don't tell anyone these tricks but here is how I judge targets. I stood there and listened a target over for 15 minutes while he told her all the same ground judging tricks that all of us already use and he acted like he didn't want me to hear what he was telling her like I was going to go enter the pro class and beat him because I now had all the knowledge that I wasn't supposed to know.

I just don't want to be that guy, I am a teacher and alway will be till I die.


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## dmacey (Mar 27, 2015)

Mahly said:


> Never insult your shooting. Remember, when bad mouthing your shooting.... Your probably listening.


I agree, though the only exception would be criticizing my shooting in a "negative" way. That's different than simply beating myself up and it's easy to confuse the two. For me, often times, the only way I can learn from a shot is by being critical of how it went wrong - I didn't let down after my "window" expired, or I let the peep drop when pulling through the shot, etc. and being honest with myself about it. In fact, this can tell me if I'm making the same mistake over and over, which is a really important item. That's usually a deeper problem with my shot that I need to work on and correct. 

Basically, I'm just saying I don't get bent out of shape applying "negativity" to my shot in the form of self-criticism. Others mileage may vary. The closest my method would be to "negativity" would be a self-put-down-with-an-intended-purpose. Sure, it's important to positively reinforce when I'm doing things right, but a policy of absolutely no "negative" judgments at all I have found to be counterproductive. All else being equal, I prefer being more informed than less informed. When something's wrong, I want to know and know as exactly what's wrong as possible, so I can try to fix it.

DM


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## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

Confidence is a funny thing, over the years I have hit walk off home runs and pitched perfect games and no hitters and won 3d tournaments with 100% confidence that what I was doing was right. With baseball by the time I was 21 years old my eligibility ran out and my favorite sport was over, my current sport is archery obviously but there have been others along the way. What really sucks about baseball is that my senior year with about a month and a half to go I actually became something special, I could stand up at the plate and wait for a good pitch and when my brain liked what it saw the ball was crushed. I did things with a baseball bat that I simply didn't know were possible and then the games ran out and I was done.

Why did I say that confidence is a funny thing, because starting in 2008 I began winning 10 to 13 local tournaments per year and even today I still win the same amount of local tournaments per season but I am not the same shooter. Back then I was a puncher who forced the pin to be perfect and then I tried to squeeze the trigger while the pin was perfect, I also shot super fast bows from 325 to 352 fps with really light arrows. 

I was absolutely convinced that my methods were sound and correct for what I was trying to get done and that was win tournaments but at some time I had to accept that everything I was doing was completely wrong. I had no yardage judging ability and I had no knowledge of any solid shooting methods or even knew that they existed, I had relatively poor shooting form and absolutely none of my equipment was even the right stuff. What scares me the most is that I could have just continued being that guy and totally justified it with my local wins but I didn't, I told myself that I have to change and take a huge risk to allow myself to move on to something better. 

What really scares me is that I totally ditched everything for a simple phrase "Back Tension", back then that phrase came with little to no instruction or setup.


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## dmacey (Mar 27, 2015)

Padgett said:


> What really scares me is that I totally ditched everything for a simple phrase "Back Tension", back then that phrase came with little to no instruction or setup.


"Back tension" seems to be a 4-letter word on AT, judging by some of the archived threads I've read on here. So only a brief comment lest another such thread should start again: it sounds to me like a totally optional shot method on the compound, judging by the various opinions of many shooters on the subject. I can't shoot a compound without it, but that's just my approach to it and it works best for me. 

But, there was a link to a Youtube video by Levi Morgan around here somewhere, where he was giving a talk about back tension; he said something to the effect that many of the top pro shooters don't use it in their shots. 

Hope I'm not dredging up a super hot topic, but you had "Back Tension" in quotes and was just wondering?

DM


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## sharkred7 (Jul 19, 2005)

dmacey said:


> "Back tension" seems to be a 4-letter word on AT, judging by some of the archived threads I've read on here. So only a brief comment lest another such thread should start again: it sounds to me like a totally optional shot method on the compound, judging by the various opinions of many shooters on the subject. I can't shoot a compound without it, but that's just my approach to it and it works best for me.
> 
> But, there was a link to a Youtube video by Levi Morgan around here somewhere, where he was giving a talk about back tension; he said something to the effect that many of the top pro shooters don't use it in their shots.
> 
> ...


I believe they all use back tension in their shot, just not too trigger the shot. Most use some sort of release manipulation to "trigger" the shot but by using the big clumsy muscles in the back will help steady your sight picture. ANd yes, people get fired up on that subject:wink:


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## dmacey (Mar 27, 2015)

sharkred7 said:


> I believe they all use back tension in their shot, just not too trigger the shot. Most use some sort of release manipulation to "trigger" the shot but by using the big clumsy muscles in the back will help steady your sight picture. ANd yes, people get fired up on that subject:wink:


Actually I found the video in another thread and that's what Levi M. basically said also. I use a tension-style release so I actually do use back tension as the actual mechanism to make the release go off. But I agree that it seems odd to think of back tension as the firing mechanism on a hinge-style - it has to be rotated so some manipulation to rotate it is clearly required. It was the 15 or so shots I made on a hinge release once, IIRC anyway. 

Well this may be topic drift and I have about .01% hinge experience to top it off, so I'll just leave it here...

DM


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## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

I am finally starting to see what I wanted to see in my return to shooting, For the last couple weeks I had one goal in my mind when I go to the bow shop. 

Execute Smooth Shots and enjoy your time at the range. That is it, nothing more or less. 

What I have noticed is that I was able to meet my goal of executing smooth shots but once the arrow hit the target it was simply not my normal accuracy and which I expected but the sensation of really solids shots with a poor outcome was not what I was expecting. I really was worried that maybe I couldn't execute smooth shots right from day one and that it would take time to get there but they came easily. 

Yesterday I got into the bow shop at 4pm and shot till 5:10 pm, I walked in and put up a new 5-spot target and drew my little chart.

Inside out x Solid line hit Line licker Miss 
------------- -------------- ----------- -----

27 20 1 1



That was a weird result that I have never had before where I stayed in the x every time but one shot where I missed and I only had one line licker, Usually my inside out x's will either be a majority with a few solids and no line lickers or I will have a bunch of solids and a bunch of line lickers with a few misses. But in the end it was a enjoyable session.

Now here is the weird part, I didn't feel any different today than any day since I have returned to shooting. My float wasn't any better and my execution wasn't any smoother but my body is just starting to settle in just enough that the accuracy is starting to tighten up. 

This is obviously what I wanted to happen and what I had 100% confidence that it would happen but the main reason I started this thread was to hopefully let people see where it is so easy to fall off the wagon. 

Falling off the Wagon: 

I felt great from the first day back from my surgery and could have not been more excited but the arrows weren't hitting where they were supposed to hit, hey maybe I should really bear down and force my pin to sit still and try and time my shot to when the pin is perfect. Then in a few weeks once I get back in shooter shape I can go ahead and do things correctly, nobody will know because I am all by myself here on the range.

Instead of falling off the wagon I have been just enjoying the shooting and each and every session I remember the little subtle things that allow me to be a solid shooter, as much as I am on archery talk and as much as i have shot over the last few years you would thing everything is set in stone. Well my foundation is set in stone but the little things that allow me to be accurate have proven to be easy to forget but also within a few weeks easy to remember.


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## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

Dang, the little chart didn't post like I wrote it. 27 inside outs, with 20 solid line hits, 1 line licker, 1 miss.


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## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

On a side note I have been using my squeeze and pull firing engine and Yielding firing engine and right now I am better with yielding, yielding is by far my favorite hinge shooting method and I have always hoped that it would become my primary method that produces my strongest shooting. It is so easy and smooth to use and during my return to shooting has been something I am so glad that I am able to utilize. My squeeze and pull engine has always been my competition choice because it simply produces my best shooting over the last few years but I train with yielding on a daily basis. 

If you haven't learned a secondary firing engine I strongly suggest that you take a look at the options out there and pick one, each method has its own personality and positive and negative issues associated with it but the advantage that training with two of them is so huge. 

If you are a guy that has never trained with two firing engines you can pm me or we can discuss it here in the thread, what ever you want to do is fine with me. We can go over the benefits of training with two engines or we can just list them out and I can help you pick one.


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## schdp (Nov 4, 2014)

Interested in the dot under the X aiming... While I don't have to worry about this too much yet I do see it on other target pictures, what happens when the X is gone from too many X hits? I am currently trying the big dot (3-weeks using it) and centering it on the 3/5 spot rings, this has helped me stop following the last arrow as much but is making it harder to focus on the target.

When I do focus on the target and let the big dot center on the yellow/white I will have a good shot, it just seems I do that less now then with the small dot.

(sorry if this is too far off topic)


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## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

When I am shooting really good and forming holes in the center of the x I actually really prefer having the pin just below because putting it in the hole I seem to get lost and float around to much inside it. But, since my pin is on the bottom edge of the hole that part of the paper target really doesn't get hit and stays the same and allows my aiming to be very consistent. 

Right now I am really not strong enough to form holes and am staying in the 10 ring but things are getting better, when I shoot a old target though and the paper starts to vanish it really is nice though.


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## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

Last yer I used a bigger dot and didn't do this method as much but I had two bows one for indoor and one for 3d. This year I am back to one bow and it has my 3d sight on it so I am using the .19 pin since in january this bow will be pulling double duty.


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## schdp (Nov 4, 2014)

Padgett, thanks for the quick response. Personally I am still in the beginner stage and just trying to work through all the advice to see what works best for me. When I went to the big dot my groupings got tighter but less X's, could be just more time shooting and/or adjusting to the new sight picture. When I was shooting the smaller dot I tired covering the X... There are too many options in archery!


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