# 3d Scoring



## smurphy (Feb 22, 2007)

it has to touch the line. I have seen the hole from a arrow after it was pulled from the target be 1/4 inch from the line. but when the arrow is in the target it pulls the line to the arrow. my wife and I have been in a group with a guy that used a scotch bright pad to rough up his arrows to help pull the line to his arrow. but if i'm in a group it better touch.


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## Hittingguru (Oct 1, 2004)

smurphy said:


> my wife and I have been in a group with a guy that used a scotch bright pad to rough up his arrows to help pull the line to his arrow.


Guess who gets my vote for pulling arrows that round?:mg:


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## smurphy (Feb 22, 2007)

Hittingguru said:


> Guess who gets my vote for pulling arrows that round?:mg:


you know it.


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## tmorelli (Jul 31, 2005)

smurphy said:


> but if i'm in a group it better touch.


X2! It's either touching or it's out. I hate all of this pull the line, push the line, distort the line, grey area crap. Unfortunately, there are plenty of guys who's scoring rings are 1/8-3/16" larger than mine.


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## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

Sad part ASA cleary says touching any part of the line. That means the very far outside and if you see any gap between the line and the arrow its out. Never saw a bad call in two years of shooting with the pros. It really should not be that tough to call an arrow but sometimes requires looking from all sides of the arrow. Inside of the connector line where it touching the higher score that higher score wins ever time. 
DB


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## carlosii (Feb 25, 2007)

daniel boone said:


> sad part asa cleary says touching any part of the line. That means the very far outside and if you see any gap between the line and the arrow its out. Never saw a bad call in two years of shooting with the pros. It really should not be that tough to call an arrow but sometimes requires looking from all sides of the arrow. Inside of the connector line where it touching the higher score that higher score wins ever time.
> Db


x2 db


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## shootist (Aug 28, 2003)

These soft foam targets used nowadays do pull towards an arrow sometimes. My observations are that if an arrow is on the bottom side of the ring, it very well may pull the foam to the point of contact, but arrows above the line very rarely do it. I have seen lines pulled over 1/8th of an inch on occasion. As long as the scoring ring touches the arrow, it is to be ruled as the higher score.


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## tmorelli (Jul 31, 2005)

shootist said:


> ....As long as the scoring ring touches the arrow, it is to be ruled as the higher score.


That's the key words there. I've seen plenty of arrows lately where the line was pulled but there was clearly foam between the shaft and the line that people wanted to call in.

I even heard an argument that the plane of the line would be broken if you were to extend it back out the arrow shaft (arrow kicked towards line but not contacting at the surface of the target).

How do these guys score when no one is looking? Sheesh.


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## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

tmorelli said:


> That's the key words there. I've seen plenty of arrows lately where the line was pulled but there was clearly foam between the shaft and the line that people wanted to call in.
> 
> I even heard an argument that the plane of the line would be broken if you were to extend it back out the arrow shaft (arrow kicked towards line but not contacting at the surface of the target).
> 
> How do these guys score when no one is looking? Sheesh.



Three or four guys in a group. Majority wins the call. Call them like you see them and let others call it like they see it. Groups in most ASA got to decide and make the calls. Local level shooters your going to see bad line calling, been happening for years. 
DB


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## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

shootist said:


> These soft foam targets used nowadays do pull towards an arrow sometimes. My observations are that if an arrow is on the bottom side of the ring, it very well may pull the foam to the point of contact, but arrows above the line very rarely do it. I have seen lines pulled over 1/8th of an inch on occasion. As long as the scoring ring touches the arrow, it is to be ruled as the higher score.


Those new inserts that are soft from Mckensie will pull the line and it happens alot. They remind me of the old Rhineharts that would pull a line a qaurter inch. Arrow hits the line and kicks left it will take the line with it. Some dont use a lube for this reason. Carbon shafts grab the soft foam, some more than others. 
DB


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## Lien2 (Aug 4, 2005)

tmorelli said:


> X2! It's either touching or it's out. I hate all of this pull the line, push the line, distort the line, grey area crap. Unfortunately, there are plenty of guys who's scoring rings are 1/8-3/16" larger than mine.


Agreed. The problem we run into is when the target is shot up a little and part of the line is gone. Had the line been there, the arrow more than likely would touch, but since the line is gone.............it technically isn't touching it. ???

Lien2


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## Bo Bob (Feb 12, 2004)

Lien2 said:


> Agreed. The problem we run into is when the target is shot up a little and part of the line is gone. Had the line been there, the arrow more than likely would touch, but since the line is gone.............it technically isn't touching it. ???
> 
> Lien2


Have seen this a fair amount. Buddy has a good saying. "Can you 100% say that the arrow isn't touching the line (or where the line would be if target is shot up some) then you must give them the higher score. in reality if you really have to get 3 or 4 guys opinions then give the guy the points. 
Now pulling lines and scoring arrows that don't touch bt only distort lines is crap. If there is "meat" you don't get the points.


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## wolfman_73 (Mar 7, 2005)

We score it as "If it comprimises the integrity of the line" its in. Of course, me and my buddies are so competitive, you would think every arrow was for 10 grand! Theres no cheating the line in my group :wink:


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## sagecreek (Jul 15, 2003)

I really don't see what's so hard about if it's touching the line or not. Pretty much common sense to me.


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## bigbulls10 (Jul 25, 2010)

how about you get a couple of these and then you have to worry about if its touching or not. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EsTyArLtrAA


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## sagecreek (Jul 15, 2003)

True, true!


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## Colorado_Hunter (Feb 4, 2004)

tmorelli said:


> X2! It's either touching or it's out. I hate all of this pull the line, push the line, distort the line, grey area crap. Unfortunately, there are plenty of guys who's scoring rings are 1/8-3/16" larger than mine.


I thought it was a legit question, being the noob I am. I shot my first 3d a couple weeks ago and wondered the same thing. I had several shots where the line was touching the arrow only because it was pulled to that arrow. As soon as pulled the arrow out a fraction it was obvious it wasn't touching. I took the lower score each time but wasn't sure which was correct.


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## The Fog (Oct 31, 2006)

You should receive the points if it touches the line while in the target. What happens after you pull does not matter.


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## tmorelli (Jul 31, 2005)

Yes, please don't misinterpret my post. If it touches the line, by any means, it is in.

In your case Colorado Hunter, you did yourself an injustice.


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## The Fog (Oct 31, 2006)

I know it is not practical to have an official judge the scoring. How about a random spot check with binoculars to keep all party's honest.


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## Kstigall (Feb 24, 2004)

wolfman_73 said:


> We score it as* "If it comprimises the integrity of the line"* its in. Of course, me and my buddies are so competitive, you would think every arrow was for 10 grand! Theres no cheating the line in my group :wink:


That statement is NOT in the rules!!! The arrow MUST be touching the line. Whether it distorts the line is not relevant, it must TOUCH the line.



Colorado_Hunter said:


> I thought it was a legit question, being the noob I am. I shot my first 3d a couple weeks ago and wondered the same thing. I had several shots where the line was touching the arrow only because it was pulled to that arrow. * As soon as pulled the arrow out a fraction *it was obvious it wasn't touching. I took the lower score each time but wasn't sure which was correct.


Score the arrow where it lies in the target. If the line is pulled over and touches the shaft then you receive the higher score.


IBO World's is coming up......... "Where close is good enough and a quarter inch is close!" ukey:


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## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

Colorado_Hunter said:


> I thought it was a legit question, being the noob I am. I shot my first 3d a couple weeks ago and wondered the same thing. I had several shots where the line was touching the arrow only because it was pulled to that arrow. As soon as pulled the arrow out a fraction it was obvious it wasn't touching. I took the lower score each time but wasn't sure which was correct.


ASA rules you must score the arrow before touching it. Good reason for that.
DB


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## wolfman_73 (Mar 7, 2005)

Kstig, if the line is there then yes, but talkin about shot out targets (which we see tons of around the 3d ranges here in orygun) you spend some time "guessing" for lack of a better term where the line should be. Thus the integrity of the line thru where there is no line to see.


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## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

wolfman_73 said:


> Kstig, if the line is there then yes, but talkin about shot out targets (which we see tons of around the 3d ranges here in orygun) you spend some time "guessing" for lack of a better term where the line should be. Thus the integrity of the line thru where there is no line to see.


No different than thousands of line calls indoor paper targets. You try to imagine were the circle was and make the best call you can.
Most times you got at least four in a group to make the line calls. Buddy system are always going to make bad calls.
DB


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## teapee (Jan 20, 2011)

*99 pacent*

When Wayne Pierson ran the ASA , he would end each shooters meeting with "Ramembr 99pacent out is 100pacent in"


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## Kstigall (Feb 24, 2004)

wolfman_73 said:


> Kstig, if the line is there then yes, but talkin about shot out targets (which we see tons of around the 3d ranges here in orygun) you spend some time "guessing" for lack of a better term where the line should be. Thus the integrity of the line thru where there is no line to see.


It's not just Orgygon. If we follow the written rules for scoring arrows then all is well. I suspect many don't know the rule, some _choose _ to not know the rules and too many find excuses or "reasons" for cheating. 

At Erie I shot with a very experienced IBO Triple Crown shooter that said if an arrow hits another arrow then the "shot" arrow gets the same score as the damaged arrow if the damaged arrow is unshootable AND the damaged arrow scores higher than the shot arrow. His "idea" would be, for example, if my arrow is in the 11 and your arrow hits my pin nock and deflects into an 8 then your arrow would be scored an 11 if my arrow is unshootable. That is absolutely WRONG! All arrows are scored as they are in the target. If his arrow had rebounded off the back of my arrow and was in front of the target then it would be scored an 11. IF an arrow deflected off my arrow and continued past the target it would be scored a zero. I didn't argue with him. We agreed that IF it happened we would take notes of the situation and get a ruling. I believe he was concerned because I was using pin nocks.

It's really very simple. I'm not saying it's easy to call some arrows but it's not complicated. We shouldn't have experienced grown aus archers calling arrows like very young and spoiled kids. How can so many people go to such big tournaments, like IBO Triple Crown tournaments, and be so blatantly ignorant on how to score a shot arrow? I don't believe they are ignorant.......... I think they are *bullies* and cheats that are immature mentally, emotionally and socially. I know anyone, myself included, can make a physical, intellectual or emotional mistake on occasion. I am NOT referring to these type of instances.


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## XForce Girl (Feb 14, 2008)

Maybe we can get groups to take pictures with their camera phones and bring the photos back to the officials to make a call.


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## wolfman_73 (Mar 7, 2005)

Agreed that we are all "adults" and should behave as such... that kick out rule sounds like someones attempt at a built in excuse. it happens, just score it as it lies and move on lol


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## ISAA_Archer (Dec 4, 2002)

I call all arrows as if they are mine, and if I can not call my arrow in then it's out. and I am very hard on myself!!


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## The Fog (Oct 31, 2006)

Amen to digital photos, Every groups got to have at least one devise that snaps a photo before scoring. Anyone who has a problem with that needs a reality check on their true skill set.


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## The Fog (Oct 31, 2006)

XForce Girl said:


> Maybe we can get groups to take pictures with their camera phones and bring the photos back to the officials to make a call.


 I agree this would go a long way to control the loose calls


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## Nitroboy (Jan 15, 2006)

ISAA_Archer said:


> I call all arrows as if they are mine, and if I can not call my arrow in then it's out. and I am very hard on myself!!


Dito! I have people that wont shoot with me anymore cause I score so hard, But i see how alot of below par shooters are shooting up like they are, I just refuse to cheat, it proves nothing


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## LeadSled1 (Jan 3, 2008)

Interesting thread. I was doing some research before the Harrisburg shoot and wanted to get some clarification on line "pulling" and found this in the search. At the IBO Worlds this summer my son had his first experience of shooting there. I followed the group and watched how things progressed. He had a bunch of calls made against him on 11s where the other "seasoned" archers said they were of the lower score because it was pulling the line to the arrow, even though the arrow in the target was breaking the line. I didn't say one word (not allowed to anyways) and let them continue on. It was a learning experience. They were riding him hard as he was the "newbie" and that group was broken up by having him added. This thread helped clear that up and I will let him know how it works for the next big shoot so he can stand his ground. Thanks for the clarification.


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## C.Callison (Jun 20, 2006)

I have seen some liberal calls at shoots. But it comes down to touching or not. The problem is when the groups don't get busted and buddies are shooting together. But this also go's back on us as shooters. I'am pretty sure the IBO rules state that a group must tell the people at the range tent that they need to be busted. If they don't do this they can be disqualified.
But realy it all comes down to what kind of person you are. If you are a cheater you are going to find ways to cheat. All I can do is play my game and not worry about things I don't have control over.


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## airrowdan (Jan 11, 2011)

Best thing to do is make it on the inside of the line . then u cannot complain if it is touching the line . if you cant shoot it on the inside u dont deserve it


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## schmel_me (Dec 17, 2003)

I get so sick of scoring some guys at the indoor 3d tournaments. I score fair but if i can see foam between your shaft and the line its out.Bending the line doesnt count. If you get lucky and bend the line so it touches its in. I scored a group that one time called the line judge 8 times during a round. Good thing is the judge sided with me every time. The score goes to the shooter unless something definently proves its out.


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## C.Callison (Jun 20, 2006)

XForce Girl said:


> Maybe we can get groups to take pictures with their camera phones and bring the photos back to the officials to make a call.


This sounds like a good idea. But its not practical, it would take forever to score. Also the rules state that no cameras are aloud on the range. I'am pretty sure this applies to all cameras. It all comes down to knowing the rules and enforcing them as a group. We have to police ourselves.


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## Kstigall (Feb 24, 2004)

It's either touching or it's not! It IS that simple!


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

XForce Girl said:


> Maybe we can get groups to take pictures with their camera phones and bring the photos back to the officials to make a call.





The Fog said:


> I agree this would go a long way to control the loose calls


Wrong, I believe, if a ASA National event. First, you have the group, majority rules. Of course, taking a picture may get a better call. If one truly believes the call wrong, demand the arrow remain in the target and call for the line judge.

Note; Cameras may not be allowed for taking pictures of the target/target lane. Picture(s) of a possible wrong call should not violate any rule.


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