# Shot Style



## RCR_III (Mar 19, 2011)

I was watching the world cup finals between Jesse and Reo from Vegas tonight, and heard Steve Anderson mention Jesse telling him he basis his shot process off of his aiming and that he's not as much of an executer as some of the other guys. Steve says this makes him a great indoor and field shooter, but at times it can hurt him in the wind. This got me to thinking about my shot and I was wondering from everyone else, what type of shot do you have? I don't see that there's a wrong answer here obviously, but just curious where everyone falls. 

Me personally, I'm more of an aimer as well. I will hold on target and trust my homework and shot while I focus on aiming and letting everything else happen.


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## Mahly (Dec 18, 2002)

I have a somewhat unusual style at the moment. It has been developed because of certain issues (all mental) I have shooting "normal" techniques.
I'm very much an aimer, to the point that I developed a firing engine that I have been using that prevents me from starting/stopping/starting.
It's a development tool that has been working well for me, but I hope to progress from it soon. "The Problem" thread has got me rethinking how long I want to shoot this way.
Basically, the only way to stop, is to grab the thumb peg (Hinge) and start over...there is no pause.
Shooting some 3-Ds over the summer has got me to shoot a different method in the wind...actually going to a Thumb trigger so I can pause when I have to. Oddly enough, shooting both on the same day makes each run smoother. Not sure why.


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## N7709K (Dec 17, 2008)

I aim; all the conscious effort is placed into putting the dot in the middle and keeping it there


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## cbrunson (Oct 25, 2010)

n7709k said:


> i aim; all the conscious effort is placed into putting the dot in the middle and keeping it there


x2.


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## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

Now that I am getting strong again I am doing the same thing that cbrunson and n7709k just mentioned, I personally did not do it for most of the winter because I hadn't earned the right to be at a level where I could but in the last couple weeks things have changed.


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## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

As far as my shot, as I come into anchor and settle in to the shot I am applying a very strong amount of back tension preload to the wall and as my pin settles into the x I engage my fingers and then release the peg and I come to click. From that point I am focused on my hold and nothing else.

If you guys have never engaged your fingers before releasing the thumb peg you should give it a try, it is something I am actually very excited about. I am also very interested in hearing from people that have done it and can tell me the positive and negative aspects that it has.


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## EPLC (May 21, 2002)

N7709K said:


> I aim; all the conscious effort is placed into putting the dot in the middle and keeping it there





cbrunson said:


> x2.


How does this differ from the teachings of Terry Wunderle? Or does it? I think there is a very fine line between aiming hard and over aiming...


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## redman (Feb 22, 2003)

For me it's all in the execution That is what works the best for me .


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## cbrunson (Oct 25, 2010)

EPLC said:


> How does this differ from the teachings of Terry Wunderle? Or does it? I think there is a very fine line between aiming hard and over aiming...


I believe that is where a lot of problems here come from Paul. I don't "think" what will work, or what will not. I do what I do. That is what OP asked. OP asked what "I" do.

If you already know what Terry Wunderle does, and believe that is the correct thing to do, then go give it your best effort. It's not my place to say whether or not his teachings are right for you.


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

Well, I don't know how you could or want to shoot if you didn't aim. Execution is one's own. Hasn't anyone just aimed and aimed and the shot seemed to go off on it's own? Do you think execute or let it run in automatic?


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## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

Yes, I have just aimed and aimed and the shot goes off on its own. I did this a bunch when I was a new hinge shooter years ago and it worked great, well until I went to a competition and drew back with some nerves and found myself standing there wondering why it wasn't firing. then the clock is running down or the 3d shooters are wondering why it is down draw number 4 and you haven't shot yet, that is when desperation sets in and you choose to drag out the index finger release or you choose to dump the release and shoot horrible shots.

Now I have chosen a firing engine that does its job and at times I train specifically on that firing engine but then when I get to a competition I expect myself to have done the training so that I can then just focus on the aiming and not the firing of the release. So basically I stand there and aim and the bow fires, the difference is huge from early in my hinge shooting career and now and that must be discussed so that new shooters do not think we are doing nothing.


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## ShiiFtyy (May 22, 2013)

Hmm I saw that video too
And I feel like I'm pretty similar to how Jesse was described. I always try to keep everything based off of my aim and I'll be damned if I can't aim in properly; I'd be standing there with my bow arm wavering, fighting until I can get the feeling that I could shoot 

I ended up making a thread about it because I take so long to shoot
it's time to tweak some things this weekend


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## EPLC (May 21, 2002)

cbrunson said:


> I believe that is where a lot of problems here come from Paul. I don't "think" what will work, or what will not. I do what I do. That is what OP asked. OP asked what "I" do.
> 
> If you already know what Terry Wunderle does, and believe that is the correct thing to do, then go give it your best effort. It's not my place to say whether or not his teachings are right for you.


Just trying to distinguish the differences, not determine which is right or wrong. Wunderle talks a lot about "over-aiming" which I conclude means "controlling the movement". I believe there is a big difference between aiming hard and controlling movement... with controlling movement being a bad thing. There's probably very little difference in what you folks are doing and much may simply be caught up in the wording and/or perception.


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## cbrunson (Oct 25, 2010)

I think Erdman41 summed it up nicely in the other thread. That is my perception of it. I have no idea what Wunderle said. Haven't read his view on it. 

I personally like the "Passive/Agressive" analogy. It's almost like a shift of gears in the process. But as was also pointed out, you don't want to put the cart before the horse.


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## stoz (Aug 23, 2002)

If my shot is working well I consciously set up my shot then just watch til the shot breaks. I find when im struggling a bit that im paying too much attention to the execution of the shot.


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## Ned250 (Aug 10, 2009)

I'm an executer. The moment I consciously focus on my aim, it falls apart because I'll micromanage it to death. If I can leave the dot alone and let it do it's thing, it sits more still. I've always scored better if I just sit idly by and watch my dot as I focus on executing. The only time I'll override the dot is if I notice it dropping out the bottom, which I know is linked to my back tension not being set properly (its time to abort and let down).

I often wonder if the different approaches are linked to personality traits. Aiming is too delicate of a process for me to get consciously involved. However, consciously executing isn't as fine of a process for me and produces a much cleaner shot.


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## RCR_III (Mar 19, 2011)

That's a good point on the personality type. I hadn't thought of that, but there might be a link to that.


Ned250 said:


> I'm an executer. The moment I consciously focus on my aim, it falls apart because I'll micromanage it to death. If I can leave the dot alone and let it do it's thing, it sits more still. I've always scored better if I just sit idly by and watch my dot as I focus on executing. The only time I'll override the dot is if I notice it dropping out the bottom, which I know is linked to my back tension not being set properly (its time to abort and let down).
> 
> I often wonder if the different approaches are linked to personality traits. Aiming is too delicate of a process for me to get consciously involved. However, consciously executing isn't as fine of a process for me and produces a much cleaner shot.


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## claymx (Jan 31, 2010)

I find I am much more consistent if I concentrate on aiming and not breaking form. Especially in pressure situations when my dot looks like its dancing around but I keep telling myself not to break form during the shot and let the shot happen. Obviously haven't perfected it but its a work in progress! lol


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## Rick! (Aug 10, 2008)

Ned250 said:


> I'm an executer. The moment I consciously focus on my aim, it falls apart because I'll micromanage it to death. If I can leave the dot alone and let it do it's thing, it sits more still. I've always scored better if I just sit idly by and watch my dot as I focus on executing. The only time I'll override the dot is if I notice it dropping out the bottom, which I know is linked to my back tension not being set properly (its time to abort and let down).
> 
> I often wonder if the different approaches are linked to personality traits. Aiming is too delicate of a process for me to get consciously involved. However, consciously executing isn't as fine of a process for me and produces a much cleaner shot.


This is where I am at. I just watch while I manage execution. If I feel my bow forearm or bicep tense up or my release grip tightens up to change my sight picture I have to let down and reset.


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## pwyrick (Feb 13, 2011)

Technical execution for me. Step built on step until I aim. Aiming is the next to last thing that I do. When I like what I see (still pin on my spot), I move most of my focus to my release hand for final execution.


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## Lazarus (Sep 19, 2005)

My shot changes with the game and conditions. I would prefer to be an aimer. But since I'm not really an indoor shooter that is often difficult in the outdoors. At longer distances you certainly have to put an emphasis on executing, regardless of the wind. 

Also, since I shoot about 80 practice shots to every 1 competition shot (that's an estimate,) I can't really say either. I definitely practice different than I shoot. 

Interesting discussion.


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## N7709K (Dec 17, 2008)

i see the "over aiming" as more of a mental perception of placing an arrow in the middle and putting the dot in the middle and keeping it there. With my shot built around my style of aiming and how i've knit the process together as long as I don't try and put the arrow in the middle but instead keep the dot in the middle and let the shot happen i have no issues. thats the short of it anyway


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## duc (Jul 18, 2009)

N7709K said:


> I aim; all the conscious effort is placed into putting the dot in the middle and keeping it there


Yep. Nothing else matters except a clean execution. All timed on how long the pin stays put. Obviously faster in the wind.


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## Icarus7n (Feb 13, 2016)

Just like firearms training. Muscle memory. If I told you to point at a spot on the wall with your finger, you'd do it. Without thinking or hesitation. You can pick up your finger and point to anything, anywhere, any height, and be pretty much dead on. You don't over think it. You just raise your finger and point it. i honestly think focusing so hard on the aim kills a lot of otherwise decent archers. Not all, but quite a few. You try to force the aim, force a steady float, and you'll end up punching your shot. Or end up creating target panic. Some people are calm enough mentally and physically to focus solely on aim, the rest of us need to TRUST the body/mind's ability to point/aim


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

Just might fit in. 

John Dudley 2 hrs ago. 
"I don't always shoot a wrist strap- but when I do People be like "Whhhhhaaaatttttttt?????" A true archery ninja seeks the same execution with every shot no matter how many fingers, triggers, straps, handhelds, you name it."


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## catcherarcher (Sep 23, 2014)

I'm an executor. I developed target panic from trying to aim to hard and force my pin to be 100% still. No movement. Now that I focus on making a clean execution and just relax and let the pin do what it wants. I have found my pin sits much better this way. I see less movement this way than I ever did trying to aim. My shot execution is also much better.


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

And perhaps we are describing aiming differently. Say we are aware of what the pin is doing and executing? We surely don't execute if the pins wanders off....


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## bgbls (Feb 2, 2015)

Padgett said:


> As far as my shot, as I come into anchor and settle in to the shot I am applying a very strong amount of back tension preload to the wall and as my pin settles into the x I engage my fingers and then release the peg and I come to click. From that point I am focused on my hold and nothing else.
> 
> If you guys have never engaged your fingers before releasing the thumb peg you should give it a try, it is something I am actually very excited about. I am also very interested in hearing from people that have done it and can tell me the positive and negative aspects that it has.


Could you elaborate on what this back tension preload is


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## Rick! (Aug 10, 2008)

Some call it Transfer. You can also see the three components of the Triad State, as described in "With Winning in Mind."

On page two of this document transfer is included as a fundamental component of the shot process.
http://www.mfaa-archery.org/Tech-Support/Archery_Form_Handbook.pdf


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## bgbls (Feb 2, 2015)

Rick! said:


> Some call it Transfer. You can also see the three components of the Triad State, as described in "With Winning in Mind."
> 
> On page two of this document transfer is included as a fundamental component of the shot process.
> http://www.mfaa-archery.org/Tech-Support/Archery_Form_Handbook.pdf


Thanks Rick if you were answering my question,but I was looking for Padgett's explanation.


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## RCR_III (Mar 19, 2011)

bgbls said:


> Thanks Rick if you were answering my question,but I was looking for Padgett's explanation.


Send him a pm or search his posts, he's gone through it in several recently. 

Padgett has his own term for it that describes the action of what is going on. But you'll commonly hear it referred to as a transfer. 

I've described it in my back tension video on my YouTube channel. What you are doing is transferring the tension from unwanted places, neck and upper shoulders, into the larger back muscles. This transfer pulls the release arm and bow arm down into their set positions for anchor, and it pulls the release arm back and around inline with the arrow, if your aligned correctly, and this loads the back muscles to allow you a steadier hold for a longer period of time because of utilizing a larger muscle group. It will help you hold against the back wall of the bow and help with your execution.


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## bgbls (Feb 2, 2015)

RCR_III said:


> Send him a pm or search his posts, he's gone through it in several recently.
> 
> Padgett has his own term for it that describes the action of what is going on. But you'll commonly hear it referred to as a transfer.
> 
> I've described it in my back tension video on my YouTube channel. What you are doing is transferring the tension from unwanted places, neck and upper shoulders, into the larger back muscles. This transfer pulls the release arm and bow arm down into their set positions for anchor, and it pulls the release arm back and around inline with the arrow, if your aligned correctly, and this loads the back muscles to allow you a steadier hold for a longer period of time because of utilizing a larger muscle group. It will help you hold against the back wall of the bow and help with your execution.


Does your video show how to execute the "set" position for anchor. Also ask Padgett questions and he directs you to his paid for website.
<edited>


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## hrtlnd164 (Mar 22, 2008)

bgbls said:


> Could you elaborate on what this back tension preload is


http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=2464027&highlight=Padgett+back+tension+preload


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## RCR_III (Mar 19, 2011)

bgbls said:


> Does your video show how to execute the "set" position for anchor. Also ask Padgett questions and he directs you to his paid for website.


Yes it does.


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## dmacey (Mar 27, 2015)

Well now that my elbow has decided to end my compound career (I've had enough of injuries and pain, so those bows are all now in the closet awaiting sale), I'm back to my recurve and its shot cycle. But when I shoot (shot) compound, I had adapted some elements of my recurve shot. I was an execute'er and was moving towards a subconscious aiming process. Basically, the final step in the shot was concentrating only on increasing pressure into the wall with the back and focusing on the gold. I let the brain do the concentric circle thing to keep the float on the gold. 

I did find that I could over-aim if I kept my attention on the pin and my mind would wander a bit away from just executing the shot. My best arrows were always when focusing on the gold and the increasing pressure with the back and that was it. 

DM


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## LMacD (Mar 16, 2015)

dmacey said:


> Well now that my elbow has decided to end my compound career...
> 
> DM


Uh - oh? Bad elbow? I literally feel your pain. I'm now into month 3 of elbow tendinitis, haven't shot an arrow since mid Nov...and while I'd love to say "she's getting better by the day", well, not so much. I'd say I can notice a 10-15% improvement since Nov at best. 

Interesting you mention recurve: I'm actually planning to take my Hoyt Gamemaster, put a fairly long D loop on it to keep the "full draw" weight to around 30-35 lbs when I'm anchored, which I can handle, and at least be able to do something resembling archery. When the trad guys at my club see me with a recurve set up with a trophy taker blade, movable pin sight, front stab, and using a release, they'll either pass out [...perhaps from laughing...] or lynch me. Either way, I miss shooting my Prime Rival :-(


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## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

I have been thinking about shot style all weekend since this thread started and it really is a layered thing from your thoughts on aiming and firing the release and bow setup and many other things. One of the biggest decisions is how you transfer or not transfer the pressures in the execution.

1. Push and pull
2. Valley sitter
3. Preload shooter

If you are a push and pull shooter and you valley sit until you start the execution then you are adding a lot of pressure into the shot as you push forward and execute and end up pulling into the wall as you push forward. This creates a lot of pressure transfer that causes tons of weird aiming issues. If you are a preload shooter that also incorporates a push into the target you create a pretty strong amount of tension and then as you execute you add even more on the front end as you push. 

If you are a valley sitter and you only rotate your release or punch the trigger you may have little to no pressure changes in the system but you will never really feel very strong in your systems. If you are a valley sitter that tries to shoot back tension or you pull straight back into the wall to fire the release you are going to really change the pressures in the system as you go from just sitting in the valley to pulling into the stiff wall.

When you are a guy that is a Back Tension Preload shooter you add your preload to the system before you start your execution and it creates a spring loaded effect where your execution is based on keeping that same feel consistent during the shot and that stable platform of tension on your system allows your float or hold to be very solid and not have jumpy or sudden issues from pressure changes. It also compliments your firing efforts with your release in a similar fashion by creating a spring loaded feel in your hand where the release just wants to do its job.


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## dmacey (Mar 27, 2015)

LMacD said:


> Uh - oh? Bad elbow? I literally feel your pain. I'm now into month 3 of elbow tendinitis, haven't shot an arrow since mid Nov...and while I'd love to say "she's getting better by the day", well, not so much. I'd say I can notice a 10-15% improvement since Nov at best.
> 
> Interesting you mention recurve: I'm actually planning to take my Hoyt Gamemaster, put a fairly long D loop on it to keep the "full draw" weight to around 30-35 lbs when I'm anchored, which I can handle, and at least be able to do something resembling archery. When the trad guys at my club see me with a recurve set up with a trophy taker blade, movable pin sight, front stab, and using a release, they'll either pass out [...perhaps from laughing...] or lynch me. Either way, I miss shooting my Prime Rival :-(


Yep, apologies to Robert for hijacking the thread, didn't mean to. But yes, it started during league week before last and after the last time I shot, the next morning I knew I had a problem. I think I caught it in time before it got really bad, but I just said to heck with it. My compounds are all taken down and are going to be stored or sold. I've just had enough - I can't make it through a season without something pulling apart somewhere in the upper body so I've put them down for good. They should show up in the classifieds shortly once I get pictures, etc. 

Back to the Win&Win and 14# training limbs for me. Life's too short and I'm done with being in pain all the time....  And I wanted to work on my recurve shot again anyway, so back to being a total n00b on the F.I.T.A forum lol...

Anyway, sorry for the short hijack...

DM


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