# Torque Question



## wwflake (Oct 15, 2012)

So, my buddy and I are trying to improve our indoor "X" counts and have been shooting a 300 round (Vegas 3-spot) nearly every evening after work for the last 3-4 weeks. We get on the topic of how every archer naturally torques the bow just a little bit. For example, when I am at full draw, I can see that the end of my 33" stabilizer is about and inch right of parallel as it relates to my arrow. Now I have done some experimenting with my grip and such to square up the end of my stabilizer but when I shoot with a "relaxed" wrist the stabilizer is always a little to the right. Keep in mind that this is completely repeatable for me as I "torque" the bow the same every time. My arrow seems to hit exactly where I last saw the sight pin both at short and long distances. 

Now here is my question for those experienced archers. Do you naturally torque the bow a little and tune the bow to your specific form, or do you develop a shooting form to remove any and all perceivable torque? 

My opinion (for what it is worth) is that you should develop as good a form as possible to begin with. Even after you develop a good form, you are still going to have some natural torque and that is fine as long as it is repeatable. When this is accomplished the bow can be tuned to your form and not you to the bow. I would like to hear what others have to say on the subject.


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## RCR_III (Mar 19, 2011)

I work on staying out of the bow's way. Meaning not inducing anymore torque or movement into the bow than humanly possible. 

What you may be experiencing here is riser torque. There's torque on the riser as the cables put pressure on the cable rod.


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## wwflake (Oct 15, 2012)

RCR_III said:


> I work on staying out of the bow's way. Meaning not inducing anymore torque or movement into the bow than humanly possible.
> 
> What you may be experiencing here is riser torque. There's torque on the riser as the cables put pressure on the cable rod.


Interesting... I did not consider that, but now that you mention it I think you might be on to something. The reason I say this is that I just happened to notice it as of late when I have been using my hunting bow to shoot scores. Previously I was using a shoot through riser and did not notice the stabilizer pointing a hair right. I ordered a new bow and since my old target bow sold so fast I have had to use my hunting bow to shoot. I would be willing to bet that my hunting bow's riser flexes much more than my target bow riser. 

I like many archers constantly have little things going through my head and I want to get them out so I do not have these lingering thoughts while I am trying to shoot a score. Trusting my equipment is a big thing!


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## Mahly (Dec 18, 2002)

It may not be so much riser twist, as it is just torque on the riser. Everything wanting to come in line the bow naturally wants to turn in your hand. The amount is not easily perceptible.
Even if there is that much movement, if the riser is doing it, it will be perfectly repeated (perfect for the sake of the subject at least).
In any case, I drive for the least torque I can. Adding zero torque is easier to repeat than adding and in/lb or 2 here and there.
I know it doesn't work for all ( hand shape/size, etc), but I have found that a bow tuned in a Hooter Shooter, is equally tuned in my hands. That tells me I'm not adding much torque to the system.


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## Ned250 (Aug 10, 2009)

RCR_III said:


> I work on staying out of the bow's way. Meaning not inducing anymore torque or movement into the bow than humanly possible.
> 
> What you may be experiencing here is riser torque. There's torque on the riser as the cables put pressure on the cable rod.


Maybe I'm the oddball, but I'm the opposite. Tune the bow to the shooter.... Shoot whatever form you find the most repeatable/consistent and then make the bow fit. I believe the word "tune" in the archery world is simply setting the bow to match the archer's shot. Once you start tweaking your shot to fit the bow, you're introducing too many chances for human error. Which at the end of the day is what drives missed shots, not the bow.


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## Sasquech (Dec 15, 2014)

Depending on bow brand and model some twist like pretzels especially higher pound ages it is amazing


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## Mahly (Dec 18, 2002)

Don't get me wrong, I do believe in tuning the bow to the archer. Just saying that tuning it to a HS means it IS tuned to me (not that I shoot like one, just torque like one).
Yeah, some risers (and limbs) will torque, but it may also just be the bow in hand.


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## RCR_III (Mar 19, 2011)

I agree with you on the part of not changing your form for a bow. I do not change my form for a bow, what I do is set up my body and how I grip the bow, ect. with means of letting the bow do it's thing after it's been properly tuned. If you think about it, when you put a bow in a hooter shooter that is tuned, it will have good accuracy. All you can do from that point is interrupt the mechanics of the tool in hand. Meaning, like you said, I won't grip differently with implied torque to attain a certain tune from a bow. I allow myself to be repeatable in what I do, and to me that means having as little input as possible to avoid the human error part.


Ned250 said:


> Maybe I'm the oddball, but I'm the opposite. Tune the bow to the shooter.... Shoot whatever form you find the most repeatable/consistent and then make the bow fit. I believe the word "tune" in the archery world is simply setting the bow to match the archer's shot. Once you start tweaking your shot to fit the bow, you're introducing too many chances for human error. Which at the end of the day is what drives missed shots, not the bow.


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## wwflake (Oct 15, 2012)

Mahly said:


> It may not be so much riser twist, as it is just torque on the riser. Everything wanting to come in line the bow naturally wants to turn in your hand. The amount is not easily perceptible.
> Even if there is that much movement, if the riser is doing it, it will be perfectly repeated (perfect for the sake of the subject at least).
> In any case, I drive for the least torque I can. Adding zero torque is easier to repeat than adding and in/lb or 2 here and there.
> I know it doesn't work for all ( hand shape/size, etc), but I have found that a bow tuned in a Hooter Shooter, is equally tuned in my hands. That tells me I'm not adding much torque to the system.


I would think that a bow that torques in my hand (caused by riser torque and not torque caused by grip) would torque exactly the same in a hooter shooter. I am going to have to look down the lines when it is on my draw board to see if it torques the same way.


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

Neutral grip, no implied torque..... I get a little irate when someone talks about grip pressure and bare shaft tuning...

RCR more or less agree...I don't want to learn a different grip for any one bow I decide to shoot.

Couple of Threads that might interest you. Torque indicator and a test of the Slick Shot anti-torque pad.
http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=2365348
http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=2377687


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## N7709K (Dec 17, 2008)

Every shooter torques the bow; just how it is. As long as you do the SAME thing each time it doesn't matter


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## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

I use a torque indicator so that I use the exact same amount every shot, I have also found that I can set how much I allow the bow to have and after a few shots my body accepts it as normal.


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## wwflake (Oct 15, 2012)

Padgett said:


> I use a torque indicator so that I use the exact same amount every shot, I have also found that I can set how much I allow the bow to have and after a few shots my body accepts it as normal.


What are you using as a torque indicator?


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

wwflake said:


> What are you using as a torque indicator?


I have pictures of Padget's and my indicators in the top link of my #10 reply


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## wwflake (Oct 15, 2012)

SonnyThomas said:


> I have pictures of Padget's and my indicators in the top link of my #10 reply


I glossed right over that. Thanks. Do you just fly with that during practice or is that on there all the time?


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

My jury rigged indicator is on there full time at the present. I'm in the process of getting my brother to make some like in the following link - same thread - check on down for more pictures.


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## ron w (Jan 5, 2013)

I have found, in my shooting, that the more attention I pay to the precise placement of my hand on the grip of my bow, the higher my x-count will be, in relation to my score. 
as said above, "staying out of the bow's way" ....let it do what it does, with the least input from the connection between archer and bow.
we all torque the bow to some degree. the best condition is tolerable by making small windage adjustments . when it gets out of hand, and input becomes too large, windage adjustment becomes a frequent process. many guys go 3 or 4 ends and then need a small adjustment as their form settles in repetitiously, if you need to change windage too often, you need to look at your grip.


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## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

I got my tennis racket grip tape back on yesterday and I really can't believe it hasn't been on my bow for a while, Yeah in the post above I mentioned the torque indicator but on the shooting line today the grip tape reminded me how awesome it is at allowing me to set my grip each and every shot absolutely the same for hundreds of shots in a row. Every time I drew the bow today my torque indicator was perfect and my grip just felt so good compared to a slick metal surface. Just a thought.


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

For me, the best thing ever to happen was remove grip panels and the all metal riser grips of my target bows.


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## skynight (Nov 5, 2003)

SonnyThomas said:


> Neutral grip, no implied torque..... I get a little irate when someone talks about grip pressure and bare shaft tuning...
> 
> ]


Who would advocate such an idea? Ha ha


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

skynight said:


> Who would advocate such an idea? Ha ha


You haven't seen posts of the famous bare shaft tuner, ontarget7?


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## Bbd16 (Feb 13, 2013)

skynight said:


> Who would advocate such an idea? Ha ha


Not everyones natural grip is going to produce the best performance from each bow. Ur selling yourself short of the prize if u think tweaking ur grip pressure to obtain true arrow flight is not a performance producing factor. Take the fixed roller system for example from hoyt. Why can i obtain true arrow flight with minimal cam lean and a centershot down the powerstroke but the guy 2 lanes over needs his top cam sitting east and west? Seen this numerous times. Bc i tweaked my grip to get the best performance possible.


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

Bbd16 said:


> Not everyones natural grip is going to produce the best performance from each bow. Ur selling yourself short of the prize if u think tweaking ur grip pressure to obtain true arrow flight is not a performance producing factor. Take the fixed roller system for example from hoyt. Why can i obtain true arrow flight with minimal cam lean and a centershot down the powerstroke but the guy 2 lanes over needs his top cam sitting east and west with the arrow pushed into the riser. Seen this numerous times. Bc i tweaked my grip to get the best performance possible.


Didn't say natural. I said neutral. The bow will go in the hand just so if you let it and repeats. Last attempt at bare shaft tuning was the pits. Binary cam system. Early this spring I was wore out after a week of trying to get results. Tried a bunch of everything, read all I could, PMed with ontarget7, gave him pictures of my best results. Went back to French tuning and placed 2nd the same weekend. I placed or won in all club and ASA State events events except one time, 4th place in a ASA State Qualifier....ontarget7 coughed up that he use to use French tuning and turned to bare shaft tuning because it works for him. He tells of applying grip pressure. Already said it somewhere; I won't torque, twist or add grip pressure to make a bow tune. 

I apologize for being sarcastic with adding "famous."


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## Bbd16 (Feb 13, 2013)

SonnyThomas said:


> Didn't say natural. I said neutral. The bow will go in the hand just so if you let it and repeats. Last attempt at bare shaft tuning was the pits. Binary cam system. Early this spring I was wore out after a week of trying to get results. Tried a bunch of everything, read all I could, PMed with ontarget7, gave him pictures of my best results. Went back to French tuning and placed 2nd the same weekend. I placed or won in all club and ASA State events events except one time, 4th place in a ASA State Qualifier....ontarget7 coughed up that he use to use French tuning and turned to bare shaft tuning because it works for him. He tells of applying grip pressure. Already said it somewhere; I won't torque, twist or add grip pressure to make a bow tune.
> 
> I apologize for being sarcastic with adding "famous."


More then one way to skin a cat thats forsure. Not saying u need to bareshaft tune in order to get good grouping results from a tourny rig. But for the most guys out there ecspecially hunters they need fixed heads to fly true and not lose energy. Best way to obtain that is to have the arrow leaving straight and true which is what u get with a good bareshaft tune. And a neutral grip with all bows will not allow this to be the case just as u discoverd.


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

Bbd16 said:


> More then one way to skin a cat thats forsure. Not saying u need to bareshaft tune in order to get good grouping results from a tourny rig. But for the most guys out there ecspecially hunters they need fixed heads to fly true and not lose energy. Best way to obtain that is to have the arrow leaving straight and true which is what u get with a good bareshaft tune. And a neutral grip with all bows will not allow this to be the case just as u discoverd.


Well, this forum isn't about bow hunting or broadheads. nuts&bolts; "those who use field points can get away with murder." I've been happily getting away with murder for 15 years  Do I get to count the near 40 deer I've put in the freezer?


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## Bbd16 (Feb 13, 2013)

SonnyThomas said:


> Well, this forum isn't about bow hunting or broadheads. nuts&bolts; "those who use field points can get away with murder." I've been happily getting away with murder for 15 years  Do I get to count the near 40 deer I've put in the freezer?


 :thumbs_up


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## wwflake (Oct 15, 2012)

SonnyThomas said:


> Well, this forum isn't about bow hunting or broadheads. nuts&bolts; "those who use field points can get away with murder." I've been happily getting away with murder for 15 years  Do I get to count the near 40 deer I've put in the freezer?


I personally don't think I would shoot my best if I was constantly having to worry about "grip pressure". I feel that a relaxed consistent grip is where I will have my most repeatable shots.


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## Bbd16 (Feb 13, 2013)

wwflake said:


> I personally don't think I would shoot my best if I was constantly having to worry about "grip pressure". I feel that a relaxed consistent grip is where I will have my most repeatable shots.


Grip pressure is transferd with a complete relaxed grip. The difference is u may need to shoot that same relaxed grip with knuckles at a 43° angle or u may need a slight rotation up to a 46° this slight roatation will change the grip pressure naturally and with a completly relaxed grip. Does not change from shot to shot so it csn be just as consistant as anybodys "nuetral" grip. Like said earlier u dont HAVE to change a thing from bow to bow. But u are not getting the most forgivness from each set up. Therefore u are limited to what bows u can acheive best results with. I feel that i can pick up any bow out there and shoot it just as accurate as another. Theres a big name that switched bow companies recently.his current bows do not have a yoke system. His grip changed from one bow to the other. Why? To achieve maximum performance and forgiveness


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## wwflake (Oct 15, 2012)

Bbd16 said:


> Grip pressure is transferd with a complete relaxed grip. The difference is u may need to shoot that same relaxed grip with knuckles at a 43° angle or u may need a slight rotation up to a 46° this slight roatation will change the grip pressure naturally and with a completly relaxed grip. Does not change from shot to shot so it csn be just as consistant as anybodys "nuetral" grip. Like said earlier u dont HAVE to change a thing from bow to bow. But u are not getting the most forgivness from each set up. Therefore u are limited to what bows u can acheive best results with. I feel that i can pick up any bow out there and shoot it just as accurate as another


This frame of mind going to your whole setup. So do you just set you bow to center shot, and remove any cam lean, then experiment with your grip until you get proper bare shaft results? Obviously you have to move the rest vertically but left and rights would be grip related?


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## Bbd16 (Feb 13, 2013)

wwflake said:


> This frame of mind going to your whole setup. So do you just set you bow to center shot, and remove any cam lean, then experiment with your grip until you get proper bare shaft results? Obviously you have to move the rest vertically but left and rights would be grip related?


I personally can detect when its a grip issue or a bow issue. Ive spent enough time with the bow to know this. Theres a happy median there what some call a "sweet spot" and when u achieve this the slight imperfections in your grip/form do not impact the shot nearly as much. Not all bows tune with x cam lean. Or at x centershot. So finding the maximum forgiveness with everything involved yourself included is whats key for me. We change our bows cam syc cam timing d loop lenth draw lenth etc... to get results. So why leave out the grip? After all it has a direct impact on the arrow when it leaves the bow


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## skynight (Nov 5, 2003)

What flavor is that kool-aid anyway?


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## Bbd16 (Feb 13, 2013)

Its that flavor at 80 yards day after day  



skynight said:


> What flavor is that kool-aid anyway?


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## Garceau (Sep 3, 2010)

As was already stated - you wouldn't have to worry about it, if you did it the same each and every time.


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

Bbd16 said:


> View attachment 2122344
> 
> 
> Its that flavor at 80 yards day after day


Both cam and wheel lean and opposite of each other and bow was had floating yoke. Bow was French tuned. 3 arrows at 25 yards, 3 different fixed broadheads, one RealTree Chiz-L, one RealTree Gunnison, one NAP Braxe. The other target; 60, there are 3 arrows in the black dot, the 80 has a finger spread. When I shot Field I cleaned the 80 Walk Up twice, never missing the 80 shot and cleaned the Hunter 70 yard Walk Up once and never missing the 70 yard shot. Got the add-on bars to prove cleaning the 80 and 70. You have to show your card in order to buy the add-ons. Yes, you have to buy the NFAA add-on bars.


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## Bbd16 (Feb 13, 2013)

SonnyThomas said:


> Both cam and wheel lean and opposite of each other and bow was had floating yoke. Bow was French tuned. 3 arrows at 25 yards, 3 different fixed broadheads, one RealTree Chiz-L, one RealTree Gunnison, one NAP Braxe. The other target; 60, there are 3 arrows in the black dot, the 80 has a finger spread. When I shot Field I cleaned the 80 Walk Up twice, never missing the 80 shot and cleaned the Hunter 70 yard Walk Up once and never missing the 70 yard shot. Got the add-on bars to prove cleaning the 80 and 70. You have to show your card in order to buy the add-ons. Yes, you have to buy the NFAA add-on bars.


Yep more then one way to get to the end result. My belief is that im getting max forgivness and performance from a good bs tune. Nice shooting! I stretch to get something better every day. Being open minded is the key for dicovering better results for myself


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

Thank you. I think we agree to what works for you works for you. About as opened as the next guy, I try stuff all the time. Retired, target range 35 feet from my computer. I like to freak out people. Yep, carry one in my quiver every now and then to 3D, vane missing or fletch one backwards (longest shot, 35 yards - probably do just as farther out). Picture of the cam lean of the bow that shot 35,60,80 groups. Yes, QuikTune 3000 arrow rest and shooting off the string with a Scott Mongoose index strap release.


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## ontarget7 (Dec 30, 2009)

Some of you guys have grip pressure all wrong. The bow will never be intentionally torqued one way or another, however, how you line up the grip in the pocket can have a big effect on how a bow tunes. It's the one thing that lines up a bow with its true center of power stroke. Very easy to understand but blown out of proportion from some on this sight.


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

I won't ask for a explanation. I don't think I blew anything out of proportion since I advocate a neutral grip. I just said wouldn't torque, twist or add grip pressure to make a bow tune.

As for the soap, many found it beneficial, but for finding where the natural pocket of the bow hand is. You feel it and you can apply it to virtually any bow. Yes, each brand/model or whatever has a different feel and you have to adjust to it. Soap doesn't take away anything. The bow doesn't slip once it's slipped where it won't slip anymore....Ie, direct forward pressure, no thumb side or otherwise pressure. 

And if anything...We, in here, have found we can be talking the same thing and explaining it differently or explaining it and taking it differently. Yep, some of us have got hot under the collar..... 

"Quote Originally Posted by bgbowhunter View Post 

Awesome Shane. My question, are these bows a design flaw from the factory since *we have to induce cam lean and lateral grip pressure to achieve maximum bare shaft results*? Its hard to imagine that a straight down the middle setup with zero torque and lean would not fire an arrow straight. So this raises the question of engineering. Is Prime ahead of the curve when it comes to trying to eliminate all that is wrong with a modern compound?"

"Quote Originally Posted by ontarget7
I am not an engineer, just a practical guy when it comes to tuning and bows. IMO *the only system that would be so neutral that would require a complete torque free grip would be a true shoot through system. *The Prime bows still induce a certain amount of torque on the system and *will require a certain amount of grip pressure to get bareshafts to fly perfectly true with fletched*. I really don't see it an engineer flaw more just the way it is. I feel the way we have taken grip over the years is the flaw to be honest. This is also a perfect example when you tune with a Hooter Shooter why a lot of folks will have to readjust the tune when they shoot it. The mechanical shooters do not give you the effect of a humans grip and the applied pressure one puts on the system. This pressure has always been considered as bad, however IMO from my own testing of a lot of bareshaft tuning, I believe it is a wrong way of thinking. To get the most out of a system you will need a certain amount of applied pressure at the grip to give you the truest arrow flight. Look at the pro shooters that put tape on those polished anodized grips. The tapes give them the ability to create that slight pressure a certain bow requires to get the most forgiveness. If you have ever tuned a lot of different bows with bareshafts you would realize that the soap in the hand trick to get your grip to slide into it's natural state does not work from bow to bow. Why ? This slick surface takes the slight applied pressure away that might be required in a given bow. 

*Torque or applied pressure is actually are friend to gain the most out of a system and I feel we need to look at it this way.

Thanks
Shane *


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## ontarget7 (Dec 30, 2009)

SonnyThomas said:


> I won't ask for a explanation. I don't think I blew anything out of proportion since I advocate a neutral grip. I just said wouldn't torque, twist or add grip pressure to make a bow tune.
> 
> As for the soap, many found it beneficial, but for finding where the natural pocket of the bow hand is. You feel it and you can apply it to virtually any bow. Yes, each brand/model or whatever has a different feel and you have to adjust to it. Soap doesn't take away anything. The bow doesn't slip once it's slipped where it won't slip anymore....Ie, direct forward pressure, no thumb side or otherwise pressure.
> 
> ...


Yep and the reason why I don't have a problem with bareshafts and others do. In your case your hand is jacked up from surgery and the reason why you are limited in results. 

Kind of hard to find fault when you get perfect results with every bow in relation to a tune and bareshaft results. 

I have said this on numerous occasions, you can not get these results by torquing a bow in a manner it is not meant to be in. Every body adds torque/ pressure or whatever you want to call it to a bow, if we didn't the bow would hit us in the face. It's finding the right position that coincides with the center of power stroke. The pressure applied in the grip in the right position gives you just that true alignment. The results are a far more forgiving bow, with far less left and right misses. 

The info is there for who wants it for others that joke about it. Well, you probably feel you are the best you can be so no need to change anything. For me personally, I am always looking to improve. 


Shane


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## Bbd16 (Feb 13, 2013)

Agreed. In all cases i have seen when u add different grip pressures to achieve a tune u are counteracting the bows natural induced tourque. Therefore u are not adding more torque to the system u are re directing the induced torque down the center of the bow. And i could be wrong about that but thats been my findings


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## Mahly (Dec 18, 2002)

Recently, there was discussion about low/med/high wrist grips.
Due to my hand size, and the shape of my riser, I found it hard to use a low wrist grip.
I was using a medium wrist style. I eventually tried doing the Sugru mod to match where I wanted the grip. But before that I had gone to a shop that had a reputation for being very good tuners.
I thought I would give them a chance.
We paper tuned my bow with a Hooter Shooter (something I'm not a fan of) and then had me shoot. With the grip I was using, I didn't have to adjust anything to match the Hooter Shooter.
After that, I ended up going to a different arrow rest and a much stiffer (XXX) arrow.
I tuned it myself using the bare shaft method, and was able to get perfect flight (POI and attitude in target) at 20 yards.
When I changed the grip, yes, the tune WAS off. I found I could tune around it, but really didn't like the fact that I had to tune to compensate for some torque my new grip was adding.
I finally settled on a variation of my old grip (curling fingers in, finger sling style) to get a more repeatable grip (lower to match the riser) but still not torque the bow.

I haven't found a bow I couldn't get to BS tune without changing my grip, but I haven't tuned nearly as many as Ontarget7, so I can't say they aren't out there.


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## ontarget7 (Dec 30, 2009)

Mahly said:


> Recently, there was discussion about low/med/high wrist grips.
> Due to my hand size, and the shape of my riser, I found it hard to use a low wrist grip.
> I was using a medium wrist style. I eventually tried doing the Sugru mod to match where I wanted the grip. But before that I had gone to a shop that had a reputation for being very good tuners.
> I thought I would give them a chance.
> ...


Yep, have seen the low and high grip cause fits as well. Some bows you will always get a tail high year with to much heal into the grip or bareshafts tail high impact low at 20 yards. If you try and compensate for it in cam synch it will throw your can synch way out of the normal zone for a decent back wall on a hybrid


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

SonnyThomas said:


> Thank you. *I think we agree to what works for you works for you. About as opened as the next guy, I try stuff all the time. Retired, target range 35 feet from my computer. * I like to freak out people. Yep, carry one in my quiver every now and then to 3D, vane missing or fletch one backwards (longest shot, 35 yards - probably do just as farther out). Picture of the cam lean of the bow that shot 35,60,80 groups. Yes, QuikTune 3000 arrow rest and shooting off the string with a Scott Mongoose index strap release.





ontarget7 said:


> Yep and the reason why I don't have a problem with bareshafts and others do. In your case your hand is jacked up from surgery and the reason why you are limited in results.
> 
> Kind of hard to find fault when you get perfect results with every bow in relation to a tune and bareshaft results.
> 
> ...


Like I noted, you find something that works for you, use it. I wasn't poking fun. I get ticked when people keep throwing up bare shaft tuning as the greatest thing since sliced bread....Of course I get a little ticked when it's said you have to have cams perfect for lean, whatever perfect is...
5 years working at a archery shop and not one time did anyone ask for bare shaft tuning or correcting a cam at full draw. I only know of one archery shop that has a real draw board, kind of funky, but a draw board. ??? Might be another, but you're not allowed in the work shop side. So 1 or 2 of 6 or 7 shops....


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## Sasquech (Dec 15, 2014)

Well interesting night shooting my sons centroid for the 4 th time since my bow is in for rework. The sensitivity to proper hand placement and induced torq has been tremendously frustrating. Found the secret during the second half of the 600 game at league. Had to move the base of the riser to the center of the life line top of the grip in the center of the web. This is counter to what I have been told to do by keeping the grip off the life line on the thumb side . That was giving me 70% more right and left variation once I moved the grip to the center of the base of the hand lefts and rights were no longer an issue. I assume this is not the same fir allows or all people unless I have a wrong understanding but I am going to see how it works on my bow when I get it back . At least I got back into the 290's was really struggling to get back there hated the 270's really fustrating.


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

You're experiencing the norm. It takes a awfully thin grip to stay on the inside of the Life line of the palm.

Not the easiest to take a picture of your own hand, but the Life line is about center of the riser grip. http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=2384721&p=1071992946#post1071992946


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## ontarget7 (Dec 30, 2009)

Sasquech said:


> Well interesting night shooting my sons centroid for the 4 th time since my bow is in for rework. The sensitivity to proper hand placement and induced torq has been tremendously frustrating. Found the secret during the second half of the 600 game at league. Had to move the base of the riser to the center of the life line top of the grip in the center of the web. This is counter to what I have been told to do by keeping the grip off the life line on the thumb side . That was giving me 70% more right and left variation once I moved the grip to the center of the base of the hand lefts and rights were no longer an issue. I assume this is not the same fir allows or all people unless I have a wrong understanding but I am going to see how it works on my bow when I get it back . At least I got back into the 290's was really struggling to get back there hated the 270's really fustrating.


With that bow the thumb side is not your friend


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## ron w (Jan 5, 2013)

putting deer in the freezer is a bit different than putting the arrow in a circle the size of a dime at twenty yards, as far as "torque" is concerned.


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## ontarget7 (Dec 30, 2009)

ron w said:


> putting deer in the freezer is a bit different than putting the arrow in a circle the size of a dime at twenty yards, as far as "torque" is concerned.


It all is relative when pertaining to forgiveness of a bow and how to find it


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## rohpenguins (Dec 2, 2012)

One thing that no one is addressing is the release hand. It can induce more torque or at least effect arrow flight more than the bow hand. I have seen more tuning issues because of poor anchor points or ones that are inconsistent. I think we archers tend to over complicate things and end up running in circles. There are so many factors that can come into play when setting up a target bow. Bow grip, D loop length, Draw length, draw weight, holding weight, mass bow weight, stab weights, stab lengths, release type, anchor point, ect. ect. ect. All of these effect the amount of torque that is induced into the "system". I try to keep my set up simple and comfortable, so its easier to repeat. It may not be text book perfect but I can repeat it and focus on the task at hand.


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

rohpenguins said:


> One thing that no one is addressing is the release hand. It can induce more torque or at least effect arrow flight more than the bow hand. I have seen more tuning issues because of poor anchor points or ones that are inconsistent. I think we archers tend to over complicate things and end up running in circles. There are so many factors that can come into play when setting up a target bow. Bow grip, D loop length, Draw length, draw weight, holding weight, mass bow weight, stab weights, stab lengths, release type, anchor point, ect. ect. ect. All of these effect the amount of torque that is induced into the "system". I try to keep my set up simple and comfortable, so its easier to repeat. It may not be text book perfect but I can repeat it and focus on the task at hand.


Yes, all things can induce torque and the release hand can be the root of the problem. I noted this in one of my posts, Torque Indicator. It wells seems I'm doing everything quite well and my execution is showing my most error. Smooth release, good shot. Rushed, anchored not just so, bad shot.


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## rohpenguins (Dec 2, 2012)

SonnyThomas said:


> Yes, all things can induce torque and the release hand can be the root of the problem. I noted this in one of my posts, Torque Indicator. It wells seems I'm doing everything quite well and my execution is showing my most error. Smooth release, good shot. Rushed, anchored not just so, bad shot.


I re-read your post. no disrespect intended.


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

????? re-read? Didn't see any disrespect given so none taken. I think it's a moon phase thing here of late


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## Sasquech (Dec 15, 2014)

Yes I found I had to put the base of the hand where the white spot is in the bruise picture made a huge difference


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

Well, when I first received my Pearson MarXman had some issues. Artificial thumb joint and the MarXman riser grip .600" thin (in lieu of saying thick).


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## Sasquech (Dec 15, 2014)

Well it proved very successful. 438 in a 450 game the grip was huge. Now back to let down drills 8 of those I knew the second the release went off were out. The ability to accurately measure torque is essential working on a prototype based on what you folks have been showing here. Closing in fast on those last few points.


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