# Taking too long to shoot.



## 60x backstrap (Jan 6, 2010)

There's supposed to be a 3 draw limit, meaning if your shot doesn't go off on your 3rd try then your out some points. Shotgun starts with smaller groups seems to work well also.


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## field14 (May 21, 2002)

The problem could easily be resolved. I well remember at one of the National Outdoors that I attended, the announcement was made in the morning that we had FIVE (5) hours from the time the horn sounded ("shotgun" start) to finish our round and get the scorecards turned in. If you didn't make that time limit, your scorecard would NOT be accepted.

FIVE (5) hour time limit, and it was enforced, too. IMHO, there is no excuse to take 7 or 8 hours or more to shoot 28 field or hunter targets. I saw/read some griping about this year's Nationals at Darrington with them being out on the course 8 hours...and a person pointedly remarked:
iPods, Cell Apps, Pocket computers, Cut charts and cut chart apps, rangefinders, clinometers, no site tapes on the bow sight and plugging the numbers into the computer for every shooting position, camp stools, binoculars before and after each shot, letting down 7-10 times on a single target...all contributed to being out on the course for EIGHT (8) hours to shoot the same number of arrows/targets that used to take 4-5 hours. The distances haven't changed, and the scores sure as heck aren't sky-rocketing, the targets haven't changed.
So, perhaps the person's "gripes" above have merit and are the crux of the problem.

Establish TIME LIMITS for field/hunter rounds; we have them for indoors. Matters not if the people are using all that tripe and letting down 7-10 times...but if there is a 5 (FIVE) hour time limit to get the cards turned in, you can well bet that peer pressure will prevail and people will move their tails, too.
This is MARKED distance, it doesn't have to take that long to set the site and all the drivel.

Time limits for FIELD and HUNTER rounds have been used in the past and worked effectively...there is no need NOT to put in a time limit. That can be done easily, at the discretion of the Tournament Director. IF weather becomes a factor, adjustments can be made for RAIN, Hail, Lightning, Sleet, etc...but to allow computer data entry time there is NO NEED to increase said time limit. Nope.


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## Eriks (Nov 8, 2011)

field14 said:


> The problem could easily be resolved. I well remember at one of the National Outdoors that I attended, the announcement was made in the morning that we had FIVE (5) hours from the time the horn sounded ("shotgun" start) to finish our round and get the scorecards turned in. If you didn't make that time limit, your scorecard would NOT be accepted.


You would need to force slow groups to allow faster groups to "play through". What usually happens now is there's a slow group (usually pro freestylers) and 2 or 3 groups stuck behind them.

Banning furniture like camp stools on the course is a great idea.


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## Archery Power (Feb 4, 2005)

field14 said:


> The problem could easily be resolved. I well remember at one of the National Outdoors that I attended, the announcement was made in the morning that we had FIVE (5) hours from the time the horn sounded ("shotgun" start) to finish our round and get the scorecards turned in. If you didn't make that time limit, your scorecard would NOT be accepted.
> 
> FIVE (5) hour time limit, and it was enforced, too. IMHO, there is no excuse to take 7 or 8 hours or more to shoot 28 field or hunter targets. I saw/read some griping about this year's Nationals at Darrington with them being out on the course 8 hours...and a person pointedly remarked:
> iPods, Cell Apps, Pocket computers, Cut charts and cut chart apps, rangefinders, clinometers, no site tapes on the bow sight and plugging the numbers into the computer for every shooting position, camp stools, binoculars before and after each shot, letting down 7-10 times on a single target...all contributed to being out on the course for EIGHT (8) hours to shoot the same number of arrows/targets that used to take 4-5 hours. The distances haven't changed, and the scores sure as heck aren't sky-rocketing, the targets haven't changed.
> ...


 Tom it don't look like it is the time limit
shooting archery as much as it is playing with all these tec. toys, Now it looks like the tec. toys need to band and the round would speed up, These shooters need to make up their mind if they have come to shoot archery
or play with tec toys. HA HA HA.


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## fanio (Feb 1, 2011)

5 hours = 300 minutes. 28 targets. 

Say it takes up to 20 minutes to walk from the furthest point on the course to the registration point for handing in cards (because some people will start on target 15). So that leaves 280 minutes, or 10 minutes per target. 

That is 10 minutes to: 
- set sights, 
- do _some_ glassing, 
- shoot 4 shots (and change positions if you have a Fan target; or change positions and sight settings if you have a walk-up), 
- wait for the other two guys (A&B, or C&D) to shoot, 
- walk up to the target
- score
- pull arrows 
- walk to the next target. 

This might be do-able but seems MUCH too rushed to me. Even 6 hours (giving only an extra 2 minutes per target) seems pretty short to me.


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## ccwilder3 (Sep 13, 2003)

It seems to be a group of pro's or FS'ers that cause thing to come to a screeching halt. If the groups were broken up among different classes, at least you wouldn't have all the slowest shooters shooting in the same groups.

Another thing that may be possible is that instead of being allowed to let down two times per arrow, only being allowed to let down two times per target.

A time limit on the round would be tough as it would penalize the shooters trapped behind a slow group. A timer at each target may work with three minutes for each pair to shoot four arrows.


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## huteson2us2 (Jun 22, 2005)

I shot in Darrington this year. I am 67 and they put the silver seniors on the steepest courses the first three days in a row. Just getting to the target was difficult for me with diabetis. I was taking medicine every few targets due to the steep climb between targets. I'm not complaining about shooting the upper courses, I'm saying that it took me more time to catch my wind and take care of my medical problems than it took to shoot. Then doing this three days in a row did not help.

There was a man from Tucson that was on Oxygen and carried his tank with him on those hills. As long as he could shoot those hills, I felt that I could not complain. That is my excuse for shooting slow. As it was, we caught the group on the target in front of us only a couple of times a day and the same with the group behind us so we were not shooting any faster or slower than the others.

I shot a sectional years ago in Bend, Oregon where a time limit was enforced. My group shot as fast as we could but was held up by the group ahead of us who were being held up by the group ahead of them and so on. The result was that the time limit expired before everyone finished. The winners were the one that finished with the most targets shot. We were also shooting 28 field and 28 animals on the same day back then. So to put a time limit on a field shoot is not pratical as you are limited by the groups ahead of you. The only real method to speed up a field round is to make room for four shooting positions per target. There were many targets in Darrington where only one archer could shoot at a time due to trees that could not be cut down because the range did not belong to the Darrington club.


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## field14 (May 21, 2002)

fanio said:


> 5 hours = 300 minutes. 28 targets.
> 
> Say it takes up to 20 minutes to walk from the furthest point on the course to the registration point for handing in cards (because some people will start on target 15). So that leaves 280 minutes, or 10 minutes per target.
> 
> ...


Interesting in that it DID WORK; started with 4 hour time limits before the new target in 1977. Then 4 1/2 hours at some State and Sectional events I attended (ENFORCED, TOO)
....at the NFAA National Outdoor in Watkins Glen...in 1989...and trust me, getting from the top of the "hill" to the connecticut range is no short haul, same with some of the other outlying courses. The difference was...the "clinometers, palm pilots', iPads, rangefinders, camp stools, and 7-10 letdowns...weren't happening back then!
We ALL made it to the ranges, got our scores shot, and back up to the top in ample time..UNDER 5 hours..because we knew darned well that the time limit was going to be enforced.
No NEED to take, at tops, more than 6 hours. Gotta be for knocking off all the other superflous stuff going on what with people ranging, using their clinometers and then turning around and punching numbers in to their computers to set their site for each target/shot on a walkup! That is what SITE TAPES are for! The let down thing, once again has gotten out of hand! I know that there "used to be" a let down rule on the books for both indoor and outdoor, but I guess that, according to someone that raised the dither with me when I mentioned that...the let-down rule isn't in there anymore?
Used to be 3-let downs...and if you didn't shoot that arrow on the next "pull"..it was a Zero. I used to think it was stupid to have a let-down rule AND a time limit, especially indoors...You have 4 minutes for 5 shots...and really, what does it matter if you let down 5 times...and get your shots all done within 4 minutes? The person letting down so often STILL has to make the time limit...and he/she is going to be completely tuckered out if they keep letting down and drawing back up like that. But...if people are indeed letting down 7-10 times per target on the field course...then that needs to be addressed.
Many, many years ago, they decided to allow binoculars on field courses. Next thing you know, people were bringing spotting scopes mounted on tripods out onto the course and bogged things down big time. Thus, the rule was passed that on FIELD courses, you could NOT bring along a tripod or spotting scope mounted on a tripod and use it on the course.
field14 (tom D.)


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## field14 (May 21, 2002)

Archery Power said:


> Tom it don't look like it is the time limit
> shooting archery as much as it is playing with all these tec. toys, Now it looks like the tec. toys need to band and the round would speed up, These shooters need to make up their mind if they have come to shoot archery
> or play with tec toys. HA HA HA.


Put in the time limit and ENFORCE it, and that will slow down the tech toys boys a ton! IMHO 5 hours is ample time, but could go with maybe 6 hours TOPS...from the sound of the horn until the scorecards MUST be turned in. Break that time limit for the round, and your scorecards are not accepted. Give discretion to the Tournament Chair or committee for "weather problems"...but no consideration for "techy boys and their techy-toys." They can make site tapes and use 'em just like they should. Don't need to calculate every single site setting for every single target or shooting position on the course and then set their site.


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## field14 (May 21, 2002)

ccwilder3 said:


> It seems to be a group of pro's or FS'ers that cause thing to come to a screeching halt. If the groups were broken up among different classes, at least you wouldn't have all the slowest shooters shooting in the same groups.
> 
> Another thing that may be possible is that instead of being allowed to let down two times per arrow, only being allowed to let down two times per target.
> 
> A time limit on the round would be tough as it would penalize the shooters trapped behind a slow group. A timer at each target may work with three minutes for each pair to shoot four arrows.


Oh, but that ENFORCED 5 or even 6 hour time limit will make danged sure that those slower shooters either get with the program or "we are Walking Through" and you guys can be the late ones." The peer pressure for those slower groups to get their butts moving would be enormous!
It sure was at those tournaments I've attended that were using the time limit for the ROUND. Those slow groups weren't going to be allowed to bring the shoot progress to its knees.


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## field14 (May 21, 2002)

huteson2us2 said:


> I shot in Darrington this year. I am 67 and they put the silver seniors on the steepest courses the first three days in a row. Just getting to the target was difficult for me with diabetis. I was taking medicine every few targets due to the steep climb between targets. I'm not complaining about shooting the upper courses, I'm saying that it took me more time to catch my wind and take care of my medical problems than it took to shoot. Then doing this three days in a row did not help.
> 
> There was a man from Tucson that was on Oxygen and carried his tank with him on those hills. As long as he could shoot those hills, I felt that I could not complain. That is my excuse for shooting slow. As it was, we caught the group on the target in front of us only a couple of times a day and the same with the group behind us so we were not shooting any faster or slower than the others.
> 
> I shot a sectional years ago in Bend, Oregon where a time limit was enforced. My group shot as fast as we could but was held up by the group ahead of us who were being held up by the group ahead of them and so on. The result was that the time limit expired before everyone finished. The winners were the one that finished with the most targets shot. We were also shooting 28 field and 28 animals on the same day back then. So to put a time limit on a field shoot is not pratical as you are limited by the groups ahead of you. The only real method to speed up a field round is to make room for four shooting positions per target. There were many targets in Darrington where only one archer could shoot at a time due to trees that could not be cut down because the range did not belong to the Darrington club.


Even if the shooting lanes are cut to shoot 4 abreast...it is a laugher...because the archers will REFUSE to shoot 4 abreast. That, too was tried at a Nationals a few years back, and in spite of the wide lanes, the shooters were shooting 2 and 2, and basically "told" the committee to take their 4 abreast idea and can it. What does peeve a lot of people is the group that will shoot ONE at a time on a fan target. Instead of each of the 4 getting on a stake and shooting...they'll start with ONE guy on the left or right stake. He/she shoots, then moves over. Now you have two shooters "up". Then 3 shooters, then 4...takes forever to shoot a fan in this manner. Then you get the walkups where two will shoot all four stakes and then the other two shoot all four stakes and then they go to score. What? 
With regard to 28 field and 28 animal, a time limit isn't a problem there either....5 hours for the field, 2 1/2 hours for the animal and if you ain't done with both in that time frame...you scores don't count.


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## hdracer (Aug 8, 2007)

We have never seemed to have this problem on our course. But then we have never had a full course, either.

I don't think banning electronics will work. At the most it may add a minute or two. I use an ipod with Archer's Mark. Since I leave it on all day all I need to do is see the required setting and adjust my sight. Even using the cut function is quick. Beats remaking a sight tape every time I change something. Glassing between shots is a must...I can't see my skinny arrows even at 30 yds. How else will I know how to adjust my sight? Time limits are ok but that is another rule added to an already lengthy list.

Course marshalls (like golf) is a good idea. Kick the slow pokes in the backside to get them moving. If a group has two or more others groups behind them then they should be required to allow those groups to shoot through (within reason). If the slow pokes don't increase their speed have the course marshall time them. 3 minutes for 4 arrows per shooter (12 for the group) should be sufficient.

I know, who's going to be the course marshall?


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## Mike2787 (Jul 16, 2002)

Tom, you are so out of touch with what is going on that I wish you would stop posting things that are just not true. Until you start attending field nationals again, I don't think your opinion carries a lot of weight. I spent 8+ hours on the Coyote range in Darrington this past nationals. It was not the first time that i spent 8+ hours on Coyote. I did not want to spend that much time out there but I can't say it was not enjoyable. I can't place a blame on any one thing. It was not the electronics, it was not the stools, it was not that people were dawdling. The course is tough. There are many steep climbs and long trails between targets. There were several walkups that had shooting positions that accommodated one person at a time. All of the fans were too close to shoot four abreast. We shot the hunter round that day which takes longer to shoot because of all of the walkups and fans. We were also shooting for the national championship. I can't blame a person for taking a little extra time to double check their sight setting, double check they are shooting the correct stake, double checking they are shooting the correct pin. Let downs were not an issue. No body in my group let down more than twice and several of those times was because of shadows and not being able to see what they were aiming at.

I've been to a couple of NFAA Outdoor Nationals. I was at your 1989 Nationals in Watkins Glen. I don't recall an enforced time limit. I was at the Nationals a couple of years ago that accommodated 4 abreast shooting. We shot 4 abreast. I don't know where you get your info. Are you at the tournaments working undercover so that you can report back to the masses how poorly things are run? I just don't get it.


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## brtesite (May 24, 2002)

Mike2787 said:


> Tom, you are so out of touch with what is going on that I wish you would stop posting things that are just not true. Until you start attending field nationals again, I don't think your opinion carries a lot of weight. I spent 8+ hours on the Coyote range in Darrington this past nationals. It was not the first time that i spent 8+ hours on Coyote. I did not want to spend that much time out there but I can't say it was not enjoyable. I can't place a blame on any one thing. It was not the electronics, it was not the stools, it was not that people were dawdling. The course is tough. There are many steep climbs and long trails between targets. There were several walkups that had shooting positions that accommodated one person at a time. All of the fans were too close to shoot four abreast. We shot the hunter round that day which takes longer to shoot because of all of the walkups and fans. We were also shooting for the national championship. I can't blame a person for taking a little extra time to double check their sight setting, double check they are shooting the correct stake, double checking they are shooting the correct pin. Let downs were not an issue. No body in my group let down more than twice and several of those times was because of shadows and not being able to see what they were aiming at.
> 
> I've been to a couple of NFAA Outdoor Nationals. I was at your 1989 Nationals in Watkins Glen. I don't recall an enforced time limit. I was at the Nationals a couple of years ago that accommodated 4 abreast shooting. We shot 4 abreast. I don't know where you get your info. Are you at the tournaments working undercover so that you can report back to the masses how poorly things are run? I just don' get it.


 You only went to a couple of nationals????? pants on fire
Darington does have a problem with some of the walk ups & it does take time. Shooting 4 abreast is great. unfortunately some didn't take advantage. I have observed that some of the lesser shooters didn't do it that way. As some of the threads stated that the pros took the longest time, not so. Most of the time they are the first ones in


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## field14 (May 21, 2002)

Mike2787 said:


> Tom, you are so out of touch with what is going on that I wish you would stop posting things that are just not true. Until you start attending field nationals again, I don't think your opinion carries a lot of weight. I spent 8+ hours on the Coyote range in Darrington this past nationals. It was not the first time that i spent 8+ hours on Coyote. I did not want to spend that much time out there but I can't say it was not enjoyable. I can't place a blame on any one thing. It was not the electronics, it was not the stools, it was not that people were dawdling. The course is tough. There are many steep climbs and long trails between targets. There were several walkups that had shooting positions that accommodated one person at a time. All of the fans were too close to shoot four abreast. We shot the hunter round that day which takes longer to shoot because of all of the walkups and fans. We were also shooting for the national championship. I can't blame a person for taking a little extra time to double check their sight setting, double check they are shooting the correct stake, double checking they are shooting the correct pin. Let downs were not an issue. No body in my group let down more than twice and several of those times was because of shadows and not being able to see what they were aiming at.
> 
> I've been to a couple of NFAA Outdoor Nationals. I was at your 1989 Nationals in Watkins Glen. I don't recall an enforced time limit. I was at the Nationals a couple of years ago that accommodated 4 abreast shooting. We shot 4 abreast. I don't know where you get your info. Are you at the tournaments working undercover so that you can report back to the masses how poorly things are run? I just don't get it.


Mike,
Shooting as a Pro like you have for years, you don't get in with those "wannabees", excepting perhaps on day 1 of a 5-day event. I personally witnessed, on, I think it was Wednesday at that Nationals in the Glen in 1989 shooters that did NOT make the announced 5 hour time limit...and their score cards were NOT accepted. Of course, they were like way beyond 5 hours when they turned in the card, too, it wasn't a measly 5 minutes over the time limit or something. The next day, there were some that were "close" and they were told so, too.

On a thread somewhere, and I'm not going to look it up, a person specifically mentions the items about iPads, Clinometers, computers, rangefinders, stools, and letting down time and time again as being a problem. He specifically mentions something like "letting down 7-10 times" or something like that (and I know you likely know exactly which "thread" I'm speaking of too, and who that person was) - - - so apparently SOME groups are having this happen. Just cuz YOUR group wasn't having this problem doesn't mean it is "not so"...Obviously the person I mention above saw it, lived it, and wasn't overly happy about it. So, I guess the person that posted about this year's Nationals and all the electronics, stools, and let downs during the tournament posted something that wasn't true, too? Maybe he was just "joking around"??? Maybe he, too, was/is out of touch?



I agree with Mike Lepera; most of the time it is NOT the Pros that are tardy and holding up the show; it is the other divisions/styles/classes that get backed up. It is also not ALL the groups either, but at times it can be several groups staggered out over the course.

About me not shooting the events - - Just because I'm not there doesn't mean I don't speak with people that are and try to keep in touch with things that way. I have my reasons why I simply CANNOT go to those big events...and it really has nothing to do with my shooting. It is highly personal in nature, and Mike, if YOU had that same set of circumstances, you wouldn't attend either; in fact, you may not shoot at all.

But back to the issue at hand...there are people/groups out there creating backups on the course, and in my experiences where there was a time limit announced, people adhered to it. Don't establish a time limit or something along those lines, and some people will take all day to shoot. 
Imagine how long things would go on indoors had not the time limit been put in. Used to be 5 minutes for 5 shots and that was caused by one or two specific people that were taking upwards of 10 minutes for 5 shots...it got abused...so the NFAA did something about it. Now we have 4 minutes for 5 shots, enforced, and it is ample time.


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## field14 (May 21, 2002)

brtesite said:


> You only went to a couple of nationals????? pants on fire
> Darington does have a problem with some of the walk ups & it does take time. Shooting 4 abreast is great. unfortunately some didn't take advantage. I have observed that some of the lesser shooters didn't do it that way. As some of the threads stated that the pros took the longest time, not so. Most of the time they are the first ones in


I won't list those that I attended...but those that I did attend sure didn't have the backups, and we also weren't out on the course for 6-8 hours either. Even in spite of the heat and humidity, bales that were "passing thru" so we had to shoot more than 4 arrows to keep enough in the bale to score, and yes, narrow shooting lanes, long walks between targets, etc.
I specifically mentioned the 1989 Nationals at the Glen because it had pretty good attendance, and I specifically remember them announcing the 5-hour time limit and enforcing it. I witnessed people's score cards not being accepted, so know it happened. They were, however way over that 5 hours, too. So to be accused of not knowing what I'm talking about when I witnessed something first-hand is a bit insulting.

I do think that some of this "taking too long" does have to do with the advanced ages of the competitors that are attending these events. I think it has been brought to light about the number of Seniors, etc being way higher than those of a much younger age. It may well be an idea to try to avoid putting the seniors and older folks on those outlying courses and courses that are rough to climb and walk. That could well speed up the process in and of itself. Afterall, it isn't like those Seniors are competing directly against the younger guys and gals, now is it? As long as everyone in that group shoots the same courses, it doesn't matter.

I don't attend, but again, it is not because I don't want to; it is indeed fact that I cannot attend, and other persons in the same situation wouldn't either. They likely would have hung up their bows long ago, and their dues along with it.


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## Mike2787 (Jul 16, 2002)

One of the joys of going to Darrington is the challenging ranges. Three years ago, the master seniors did not get the opportunity to shoot the ranges up on the hill. They got to shoot Dylan and Deer, the flat ranges twice. Many of them complained that they didn't get to shoot Coyote or Cougar. This year they got to shoot the hilly ranges and for the most part, they were happy about it. For the NFAA, it seems to be a damned if you do and damned if you don't for every tournament they run. The only people who had any right to complain about the length of the round was Natalie and the other officials who had to wait for everyone to finish. They asked for suggestions to speed up the round but they never made it feel like it was the archers fault for the length of the round.


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## Bearlee (Dec 24, 2009)

"The only real method to speed up a field round is to make room for four shooting positions per target."

Seems the logical best choice, shooting time could be saved if every stake had a place and required at least 2 people to shoot at the same time. When one of the first two shooters finishes and leaves the stake (or line), the next shooter on deck steps into the vacated place.

This would speed all archery up including 3D.


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## Eriks (Nov 8, 2011)

Mike2787 said:


> The only people who had any right to complain about the length of the round was Natalie and the other officials who had to wait for everyone to finish.



How about the people in the groups behind a slow group?

This wasn't a problem so much at Darrington this year but it is a HUGE problem at Redding every year.


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## brtesite (May 24, 2002)

Mike2787 said:


> One of the joys of going to Darrington is the challenging ranges. Three years ago, the master seniors did not get the opportunity to shoot the ranges up on the hill. They got to shoot Dylan and Deer, the flat ranges twice. Many of them complained that they didn't get to shoot Coyote or Cougar. This year they got to shoot the hilly ranges and for the most part, they were happy about it. For the NFAA, it seems to be a damned if you do and damned if you don't for every tournament they run. The only people who had any right to complain about the length of the round was Natalie and the other officials who had to wait for everyone to finish. They asked for suggestions to speed up the round but they never made it feel like it was the archers fault for the length of the round.


 Mikey, For you is easy , for me is difficult. challenges are different for different people. for some it is getting up each day. Black knight got to me . You are right the NFAA staff did a good job . The scores were up every day


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## Mike2787 (Jul 16, 2002)

Eriks said:


> How about the people in the groups behind a slow group?
> 
> This wasn't a problem so much at Darrington this year but it is a HUGE problem at Redding every year.


Redding is an entirely different animal. 1500 shooters, 70 targets, 20-25 people in a group. Most groups split in 2 which still leaves 12-16 people in a group. It takes a little time for all of those people to shoot, walk to the targets, score and pull arrows. If you go to Redding, you know you're going to wait.


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## brtesite (May 24, 2002)

Mike2787 said:


> Redding is an entirely different animal. 1500 shooters, 70 targets, 20-25 people in a group. Most groups split in 2 which still leaves 12-16 people in a group. It takes a little time for all of those people to shoot, walk to the targets, score and pull arrows. If you go to Redding, you know you're going to wait.


also there are quite a few kids there that shoot at a shorter distance. So after the adults shoot you have to walk up a wait for the kids to shoot . By having the shoot broken up for 3 days, every one is in by 2:00


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## ccwilder3 (Sep 13, 2003)

I have never attended a National so can't really speak to that. I have shot state and sectionals and the hold up is always the FS and Pro FS classes. This is also true in 3D but at least the tournament officials have a time limit rule to help push the slower groups.

It seems to me that having electronics take the place of skill pretty much negates the purpose of having a hilly course. They might as well all be flat.

I think allowing only 2 letdowns per target and no electronics would help a lot. And while it may not be practical for Nationals, for state and sectionals, break up the classes so that the slowest shooting classes are not grouped together.

Having lanes wide enough for 4 to shoot at a time would also make a huge difference.


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## field14 (May 21, 2002)

Bearlee said:


> "The only real method to speed up a field round is to make room for four shooting positions per target."
> 
> Seems the logical best choice, shooting time could be saved if every stake had a place and required at least 2 people to shoot at the same time. When one of the first two shooters finishes and leaves the stake (or line), the next shooter on deck steps into the vacated place.
> 
> This would speed all archery up including 3D.


I have to disagree. Many of the "amateur" shooters will NOT shoot 4 abreast regardless of the width of the shooting lanes. Many will, but those that won't are stead fast about "spotting for the others" and all that snot. Having actually been in on the design and building of several field courses over the years, we designed and built many of them to shoot 4 abreast, and later discovered that while it was great for keeping the bugs and creepy crawlers off the shooters...very few would actually shoot 4 abreast on any of the targets, electing rather to shoot 2 abreast. 
The advantages in setting up the courses this way (lanes to accommodate 4 abreast) and keeping those lanes wide were in limb trimming (didn't have to trim high limbs as often as when the lanes were narrowed down), the bug situation, and being able to maneuver the mowers around a LOT easier than if the lanes were narrow and the walking paths between were even narrower. It actually sped up the mowing process for us cuz we didn't spend so much time backing up, to get turned around and jostling with the mower, and this included push mowers, too.
I've not seen many problems with 2 at a time shooting; that is what happens on most courses - - UNLESS the lanes are super narrow, one side or the other has a lighting problem, limbs in the way, or BAD FOOTING on one side as opposed to the other. Getting people to shoot 4 abreast is a bigger problem, however.
You can read range layout suggestions here: Starts on page 6
http://nfaa-archery.org/depot/documents/170-2005404-Archery Range Guidelines.pdf 
It covers layouts, safety, and how to's. 
The range INSPECTION form is at this URL:
http://nfaa-archery.org/depot/documents/722-2009326-Outdoor Range Inspection Form.pdf 

Under group I is a blurb about shooting lanes wide enough to accommodate 4 shooters...20 points awarded (max). So while it is in the book, there is no real reason that clubs will go out of their way to make shooting lanes wide enough to shoot 4 abreast. Nice, but NOT mandatory. To make it so, may well cause a complete rebuilding of many field courses out there due to the safety problems and also workload to make the changes.

ABOUT THE LET DOWN RULE:
AND...contrary to what some people think, there IS a let down rule for outdoor field shooting!!!! I've been told there was no such thing...and I knew I had read it somewhere before...and I was NOT wrong, in spite of the Pro Chair telling me I was full of it and to bring myself up to date!!

Here is a quote from the CBL: "_*At all NFAA outdoor sanctioned tournaments, a (3) let down rule will be applied per
arrow. A fourth let down will be counted as a shot arrow.*_" It can be found :
http://nfaa-archery.org/depot/documents/1401-2013611-Constitution & By-Laws 2013-2014.pdf 
Page 47 Item I, No. 12.

How bout that, I've not gone brain dead afterall...hahaha


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## Archery Power (Feb 4, 2005)

Field Archery is what it is, It does not matter how long it takes to shoot a field round as long as it is in reason, We all know before 
we go a nfaa field nationals... we know that it is going to take at least 5-1/2 hrs. to shoot a field round, What is the problem, If we did not
want to shoot that long we could just stay home. Now if you just have to speed the round up just shoot less arrows that will speed it up some.
Next if you would speed up the scoreing at the target that would also speed it up some. And then if the groups would no get seperated after
the round is over we could get the score cards talled and signed and turned in a lot quicker. Or we could have someone taking the cards
at the end of the round when we come off the range that also would get the cards turned in quicker. But the thing that slows it down is the scoring at the target
and checking each arrow after they have been pulled this also holds up the group behind you. Pull the arrows and move on. It is not the shooting
time while on the line that slows down the round. It is all of the above.


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## montigre (Oct 13, 2008)

ccwilder3 said:


> I have never attended a National so can't really speak to that. I have shot state and sectionals and the hold up is always the FS and Pro FS classes. This is also true in 3D but at least the tournament officials have a time limit rule to help push the slower groups.
> It seems to me that having electronics take the place of skill pretty much negates the purpose of having a hilly course. They might as well all be flat.
> I think allowing only 2 letdowns per target and no electronics would help a lot. And while it may not be practical for Nationals, for state and sectionals, break up the classes so that the slowest shooting classes are not grouped together.
> Having lanes wide enough for 4 to shoot at a time would also make a huge difference.


I have to disagree from practical experience; it is generally the barebow and recurve groups that cause the greatest hold up and not the FS or even Pro FS groups. The fastest groups are, by far, the kids groups. They shoot like little machines...lol!! Also when there has been a hold up, there was never an issue of not being able to shoot through the slower group(s). 

Electronics do not negate the purpose of a hilly course, if you shoot enough times on different courses, you get a pretty good feel of what the cuts should be just by examining the target and lay of the land and also get to know very well how you and your equipment handle certain terrain and environmental conditions. The vast majority of shooters I have shared a line with had sight tapes on their bows and only a few relied solely on a digital program to assist with their marks--I have never seen this at Nats. Some will range a target (not all are correctly marked at their intended distances), and pretty much all will glass a target (if not the first to shoot it) to see how others' arrows have been hitting it...all just part of being proactive in the sport and not a means of taking an unfair advantage and in no way do these actions add significantly to the time it takes to complete a round. 

The 3 let down rule has been in effect for a couple of years now and seems to be working pretty well at the Sec and Nat level. Like I mentioned in a different thread, better than breaking up classes and preventing people from shooting with their peers, it is much more beneficial to assign targets based on a person's style--this has kept our local shoots moving along nicely, even though it does take a little extra effort and forethought on the part of the organizers. 

As Tom stated, even when the lanes are 4 wide, most still prefer to shoot 2 abreast as it does allow a little time to catch your breath between targets... 

One thing that I have found that really slows things down are groups that have lost their focus to shoot and spend a large amount of time chatting with each other instead of scoring arrows or shooting. Granted, it is a good time to meet up with shooting buddies, but spend the time socializing while walking between targets or at the end of a round and not when you should be concentrating on the business of shooting.


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## gcab (Mar 24, 2010)

Mike2787 said:


> Tom, you are so out of touch with what is going on that I wish you would stop posting things that are just not true. Until you start attending field nationals again, I don't think your opinion carries a lot of weight. I spent 8+ hours on the Coyote range in Darrington this past nationals. It was not the first time that i spent 8+ hours on Coyote. I did not want to spend that much time out there but I can't say it was not enjoyable. I can't place a blame on any one thing. It was not the electronics, it was not the stools, it was not that people were dawdling. The course is tough. There are many steep climbs and long trails between targets. There were several walkups that had shooting positions that accommodated one person at a time. All of the fans were too close to shoot four abreast. We shot the hunter round that day which takes longer to shoot because of all of the walkups and fans. We were also shooting for the national championship. I can't blame a person for taking a little extra time to double check their sight setting, double check they are shooting the correct stake, double checking they are shooting the correct pin. Let downs were not an issue. No body in my group let down more than twice and several of those times was because of shadows and not being able to see what they were aiming at.
> 
> I've been to a couple of NFAA Outdoor Nationals. I was at your 1989 Nationals in Watkins Glen. I don't recall an enforced time limit. I was at the Nationals a couple of years ago that accommodated 4 abreast shooting. We shot 4 abreast. I don't know where you get your info. Are you at the tournaments working undercover so that you can report back to the masses how poorly things are run? I just don't get it.



Why are you a very respected pro by so many.............this right here. Amen. Maybe people take their time because they still like archery, not just wanting to complain about things that they dont even experience, but then back up the arguement of "staying in touch" by something that happened in 1989. haha. Thanks for speaking up. Its nice to see a pro as yourself still enjoy the sport some of us are just getting started in.


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## Eriks (Nov 8, 2011)

montigre said:


> I have to disagree from practical experience; it is generally the barebow and recurve groups that cause the greatest hold up and not the FS or even Pro FS groups. .


That's because we trad shooters can all hold 45-50 pounds with no let off for 30-45 seconds while the wind dies. We can also never find our sight tapes and we're always looking for tools to adjust our bows.

The really slow shooters are the longbow guys. Every tree they see they are thinking about making new arrows from it...

headdesk


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## Brown Hornet (Aug 8, 2002)

I've shot with a lot of different people over the years...lots of different styles of shooters. newbies to Pros to seasoned FS and BHFS shooters....the slower shooters most times are NOT the FS shooters....at least not the seasoned shooters...even the ones that use their scale or an iPod or other device to pull marks and set their tape. I remember one day shooting with Hinky who was using a palm pilot for his marks, I was using a tape chart then, the other shooters had a tape....2 of us had rangefinders and one had a cut chart. So that's one Pro..one Joe that shot in the 540 range and two guys that shot in the 515-525 range at the time.... We were done in 2:55 mins...we all went out at the same time and we waited over an hour for the next group to come in.....

I have shot courses with my normal buddies all of how use some form of electronics and we don't always shoot 4 across even when possible and still finish in 4 hours...shoot the same ranges with others and take MUCH longer. I've shot a half by myself and with a couple buddies and been done in an hour to two...shoot the same 14 with BHFS guys and taken 3 hours....

There are the exception of course....those that shot with Bowgod before he vanished know that he is the slowest person ever to step foot on a field range....Grimace would put the brakes on a group also but not nearly as bad as BG. 

Speed up the slow groups or shoot thru....there is a let down rule... Call the offenders on it. 

I don't mind shooting with whoever at a regular shoot....but at States, Sectionals or Nationals....not a chance I want to shoot with someone who is not in my class. I remember one state shoot that I got stuck in a group that had a guest and female shooter on Sun....talk about a pissed off Hornet. I finished 3rd...BUT I wouldn't have finished 3rd if I had been in the group I should have been in. I was so ticked with the pair I shot with that I didn't start shooting until about target 8. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## distributor (Mar 18, 2004)

Archery Power said:


> Field Archery is what it is, It does not matter how long it takes to shoot a field round as long as it is in reason, We all know before
> we go a nfaa field nationals... we know that it is going to take at least 5-1/2 hrs. to shoot a field round, What is the problem, If we did not
> want to shoot that long we could just stay home. Now if you just have to speed the round up just shoot less arrows that will speed it up some.
> Next if you would speed up the scoreing at the target that would also speed it up some. And then if the groups would no get seperated after
> ...


It sounds like someone has given this issue some thought..... I can see where a lot of time can be lost scoring the arrows with a lot of jokes been told

and not paying attention to the details of what is going on.......Also I agree a lot of time is lost pulling arrows one at a time spending and checking for

strighteness one arrow at a time then pulling another arrow and on with the same process.......Then it is joke time again not taken notice that there is a 

group waiting on the line ready to shoot......Now if this goes on target after target how long does this take for a major back up three targets deep.

This is just one thing that causes back ups......But I think that we are looking at the wrong thing when we worry about let down rule or time limit

of how long it takes to get back to the club house... If we would look at the whole picture and figure out that there are many things that causes holds up on the ranges

This sound like we need to do a time study just how long that it should take the average person to shoot a round of Field Archery in todays shooting, not how long

someone would like a round to be.


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## ron w (Jan 5, 2013)

yea, ill agree that it's the accumulation of several things that backs up a course. about the only constructive thing an organizer can do to improve it,.... is limit group sizes and that's hard to reinforce out on the course.


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## montigre (Oct 13, 2008)

eriks said:


> the really slow shooters are the longbow guys. Every tree they see they are thinking about making new arrows from it...


...lol!!!


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## field14 (May 21, 2002)

ron w said:


> yea, ill agree that it's the accumulation of several things that backs up a course. about the only constructive thing an organizer can do to improve it,.... is limit group sizes and that's hard to reinforce out on the course.


For field shooting, the smallest group size allowed by the rules is 3. You cannot hold a sanctioned event and assign fewer than 3 persons to a given group of shooters. I once remember shooting two Great Lakes Sectionals up at Mudjaw Bowmen in Toledo, Ohio where the course was double butted and there were 8 shooters in each "group", one group of 4 shot on the left bale; the other on the right. After 14 targets, we not only switched from left to right and top to bottom for targets...but also had to switch from the left bale to the right one or the right one to the left one. We still got done in under 5 hours, even double grouped! But that was then, and now is now.
Imagine now a daze if there were 8 in a group and two bales per target and how long that would take? OMG.

The most common group size for field/hunter/animal events, even at the Nationals is FOUR. Redding Trail shoot is a completely different "animal" however, so group sizes there are gi-nor-mous.
The same minimum of 3 on a target/bale rule applies indoors, and at Vegas, too. MINIMUM of 3 in a "group", by rule.

Once again, guys, the number of arrows hasn't changed; the number of targets hasn't changed; the scoring hasn't changed (excepting this year the PROS have changed scoring, which may slow them up to get it right), the courses themselves at darrington haven't changed. Yet...the amount of time it takes to shoot the same number of targets, the same number of arrows, with the same number of shooters in a group has gone from 4 1/2-5 hours from the later 1970's through the 1990's....to now this past year, apparently taking EIGHT hours for this same thing?

If the courses, targets, number in a group, number of arrows, number of arrows scored..have not changed...you look at the thing that has changed...average age of the shooters; Items being used that were NOT being used on the courses before, and that points right to electronics and other aids; it also points to one other thing that has been complained about...LET DOWNS.
Well, there is a little known rule concerning letdowns that obviously a lot of shooters, including PROS didn't realize was on the books!
I posted it earlier and won't post it again, but there is a "let down rule" in effect and on the books for field archery! Se the NFAA CBL page 47 Section I, no. 12!! 

Going from 5 hours to 8 hours isn't a problem with the course, or the rounds themselves; sorry folks; the problem rests with the SHOOTERS and what they use, how they use it, and the time taken to do this. Sad thing...scores are NOT significantly improved even with the use of all those aids out on the courses.
Years ago when they first allowed binoculars onto field courses, people got the wise idea to bring spotting scopes and tripods with them. That lasted about a year or so. Now that RULE against tripods for spotting scopes or tripods for binoculars is still on the books! HMMMMMM...those tripods slowed the shooting to a snails pace becuase people were setting them for every shot, every block for every target...sound familiar to something that is going on with regard to "setting for every block, every shot, every target" with a lot of today's shooters?
Yes! I'm passionate about field shooting and always will be. Taking 6-8 hours for ONE field or hunter round is beyond ridiculous; it is insane! I call the kettle black and call it as I see it and/or have seen it. Increasing the time on the course by nearly 40% over the past few years points in only one direction; so shooters, look at yourselves in the mirror.
field14 (Tom D.)


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## field14 (May 21, 2002)

gcab said:


> Why are you a very respected pro by so many.............this right here. Amen. Maybe people take their time because they still like archery, not just wanting to complain about things that they dont even experience, but then back up the arguement of "staying in touch" by something that happened in 1989. haha. Thanks for speaking up. Its nice to see a pro as yourself still enjoy the sport some of us are just getting started in.


Well, perhaps the PRO that brought up an entire list of the stuff going on during DARRINGTON this year is also out of touch? This PRO was there at the tournament and was very specific about many items causing problems with shooting time: This PRO that was there mentioned: iPods, Palm Pilots, range-finders, clinometers, cut charts, phone apps, setting sites, 7-10 let downs!!! among other things. Is this PRO that was there in Darrington also out of touch? Or was he just joking about it on that thread he commented on?
Oh, I get it, since he is a PRO that is OK...but I'm not and I wasn't there, so "I'm the one out of touch?"
The number of targets is the same now as it has been since forever 28 targets per round, the number of arrows shot is the same (4 per target 112 per round), the number of shooters in a group was likely FOUR, and that hasn't changed. I haven't shot Darrington, but if "cut chart books" have been written and published for Darrington's courses, then the courses haven't changed either. I might add I have a copy of that "Cut Chart" book for Darrington, and Mike Leiter is one of the authors, along with Dean Pridgen. I'll bet that Mike did NOT take 8 hours to shoot a single hunter or field round at Darrington in years past either.
It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that what used to take FIVE hours is now taking EIGHT hours...and that it isn't the course, or any of that stuff..it is things the SHOOTERS are doing that it flat increasing the time on the course by nearly 40%...and that has to be ELECTRONICS, and LET DOWNS (not being enforced). If FIVE hours was more than ample in 1989 when a TIME LIMIT was imposed each day of the event, and it was still ample only a few years ago...and suddenly then in the past 5-6 years...it went to 6 hours, then 7 hours, and now 8 hours? And 8 hours is "not a problem"??? Gimme a break. Keep letting this go without any limits, and next thing you know, shooters will be coming off the courses at dusk!


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## ccwilder3 (Sep 13, 2003)

The problem with the current letdown rule is that it allows 12 letdowns per target.

While some FS'ers do shoot at a good pace, many don't and it seem to be getting worse. Since I started shooting in 2007 the rounds have gotten longer every year. The only difference I can see in equipment is the addition of electronics.


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## mag41vance (Mar 13, 2008)

Just like in golf, let faster groups / shooters shoot through. If you have 2 or 3 groups waiting behind your group, and you've lost sight of the groups ahead, YOU ARE THE PROBLEM. Let faster shooters do what they are there to do. SHOOT

One of the fastest shooters I know won the Silver Bowl in 2012 in BHFS. You can shoot at a reasonable pace and do well.


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## carlosii (Feb 25, 2007)

field14 said:


> The problem could easily be resolved. I well remember at one of the National Outdoors that I attended, the announcement was made in the morning that we had FIVE (5) hours from the time the horn sounded ("shotgun" start) to finish our round and get the scorecards turned in. If you didn't make that time limit, your scorecard would NOT be accepted.


so you're saying that if you get clogged up behind a bunch of slow shooters that you get your card dumped just like the people who are the cause of the backup? somehow that doesn't seem to be a fair-handed way of resolving the problem.

at the recent Classic we had a range official checking shooters time. kind of irritated me, but it was fair for all.


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## Mike2787 (Jul 16, 2002)

I have spent more than 8 hours on Coyote on multiple occasions. Some of those were in the Jurrasic Era, before the invention of the transistor. I'm not saying that the electronics weren't a factor in the length of the round this year but from my perspective the long day was caused by the narrowness of the targets and the fact that some people chose to not rush their way around the range. Some groups were finished in 6 hours. I felt bad for the groups that our group was holding up. We would have let them pass but they weren't going anywhere because we were waiting for the group ahead of us. 

I'm a big proponent of making the round faster. In todays society of having to finish everything yesterday, people seem to have this internal clock that is set to one hour. Finish what they're doing in one hour and move on to the next thing. If things take too long, people get bored and lose interest. In my area, rec sports that use a clock ie. soccer, lacrosse are gaining in popularity while baseball is losing popularity because most kids get bored playing a game that could take 3 hours to complete. Part of the appeal of indoor spots is that you can finish a 60 arrow tournament with 2 lines of shooters in less than 3 hours. 

Don't get me wrong, I love the a 28 target, 112 arrow field round. It is my passion but if field archery does not adapt to the modern world, it is going to die.


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## Bearlee (Dec 24, 2009)

Mike2787 said:


> I'm a big proponent of making the round faster. In todays society of having to finish everything yesterday, people seem to have this internal clock that is set to one hour. Finish what they're doing in one hour and move on to the next thing. If things take too long, people get bored and lose interest. In my area, rec sports that use a clock ie. soccer, lacrosse are gaining in popularity while baseball is losing popularity because most kids get bored playing a game that could take 3 hours to complete. Part of the appeal of indoor spots is that you can finish a 60 arrow tournament with 2 lines of shooters in less than 3 hours.
> 
> Don't get me wrong, I love the a 28 target, 112 arrow field round. It is my passion but if field archery does not adapt to the modern world, it is going to die.


Well said. I have never shot a field round. Have never had the opportunity, when there was not a 3D scheduled. It seems everytime they have a field shoot, they overlap, and the championships for both have been the same date for the past 2 years. I started competing in 3D last year. I enjoy it, but in 3D 25 target in 4-5 hours is too much. I have been looking at field, but the closest shoots are typically 2-3 hours away. I would like to try it but traveling 5-6 hours and spending 8 hours to shoot this type of event is not something I would enjoy, much less getting anyone to go with me to do that. I can shoot in my yard for enjoyment I guess.


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## field14 (May 21, 2002)

carlosii said:


> so you're saying that if you get clogged up behind a bunch of slow shooters that you get your card dumped just like the people who are the cause of the backup? somehow that doesn't seem to be a fair-handed way of resolving the problem.
> 
> at the recent Classic we had a range official checking shooters time. kind of irritated me, but it was fair for all.


Yes, in a way, that is what I'm saying....the peer pressure of those faster groups losing their scores will come to bear on the slow groups...and either they allow the faster shooters to shoot through or all heck is going to break loose! An "reasonable" established and announced time limit has worked in the past; nothing has changed with regard to the ranges, targets, number of shots, etc. So, it isn't that; it comes down to the SLOW shooters that need a kick in the butt to either get moving or let others shoot thru, or, those faster groups just flat telling the slow group that the faster group IS shooting through.
NFAA is good about "group enforcement"; this is a prime opportunity; put in that TIME LIMIT and the shooters will enforce it big time. Simple, really, as long as it is REASONABLE and there are allowances for foul weather built in.
The problem with "timers" out on the course is getting people to do it on a volunteer basis; I don't know how the Nationals could get the people to be out on those courses to watch, time, and make sure the groups are moving.

I also do agree that the current rule about the total number of let downs "per arrow" is a bit much, and could sure be looked in to and revised. However, under the same issue, what do we do about not being able to see the target (a safety issue)? Normally, however that is good only for ONE let down and other shooters in the group will hold a cap to help. NAA has size limits on items that can be used to "shade" the shooter so he/she can see to shoot.
One of the Pros that was at Darrington this year did mention something along the line of "7-10 let downs" among that list of problems. What wasn't specified was per arrow or per target? If that went on all day long and for all or most of the targets...egads....no wonder it took so long.
Once again, though, it isn't the course, it isn't the format of the round, it is the Shooters themselves, and likely only a few that cause the bottlenecks and frustrations.
I'm very, very passionate about field shooting, and if I could make those events, I'd be there in a heartbeat, but, for me, it is absolutely impossible. It isn't that I don't attend because I'm a "cheapo" or a "chicken". A person does what they have to do, and for me, it is imossible to attend these kinds of tournaments like I had done for oh, so many years. GRRRRR.


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## gcab (Mar 24, 2010)

field14 said:


> Well, perhaps the PRO that brought up an entire list of the stuff going on during DARRINGTON this year is also out of touch? This PRO was there at the tournament and was very specific about many items causing problems with shooting time: This PRO that was there mentioned: iPods, Palm Pilots, range-finders, clinometers, cut charts, phone apps, setting sites, 7-10 let downs!!! among other things. Is this PRO that was there in Darrington also out of touch? Or was he just joking about it on that thread he commented on?
> Oh, I get it, since he is a PRO that is OK...but I'm not and I wasn't there, so "I'm the one out of touch?"
> The number of targets is the same now as it has been since forever 28 targets per round, the number of arrows shot is the same (4 per target 112 per round), the number of shooters in a group was likely FOUR, and that hasn't changed. I haven't shot Darrington, but if "cut chart books" have been written and published for Darrington's courses, then the courses haven't changed either. I might add I have a copy of that "Cut Chart" book for Darrington, and Mike Leiter is one of the authors, along with Dean Pridgen. I'll bet that Mike did NOT take 8 hours to shoot a single hunter or field round at Darrington in years past either.
> It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that what used to take FIVE hours is now taking EIGHT hours...and that it isn't the course, or any of that stuff..it is things the SHOOTERS are doing that it flat increasing the time on the course by nearly 40%...and that has to be ELECTRONICS, and LET DOWNS (not being enforced). If FIVE hours was more than ample in 1989 when a TIME LIMIT was imposed each day of the event, and it was still ample only a few years ago...and suddenly then in the past 5-6 years...it went to 6 hours, then 7 hours, and now 8 hours? And 8 hours is "not a problem"??? Gimme a break. Keep letting this go without any limits, and next thing you know, shooters will be coming off the courses at dusk!


Has nothing to do with being a pro or not a pro. I haven't ever been on a field course that has taken 8 hours, including sectionals and nationals. Noone uses palm pilots anymore so that isn't the cause. Ipods aren't allowed to be listened to, so that isnt the cause. And I have never seen anyone let down 7-10 times. Now that is just in groups I have been in and the groups that have been around me, and groups that friends have been in or around them. But to hit a target with a rangefinder, take a look at a cut chart, set sight, shoot, check thorugh binos, adjust sight if needed, ect.. that stuff takes time. And my point is maybe some of us still enjoy archery enough that we dont feel the need to run through courses because someone else feels that it takes too long. And again, I say that while never being on a course anywhere near that amoutn of time... but I have never shot Redding. The point was is that almost every post you make is negative, how things aren't the way they were in the 80s or 70s, how people dont look the way you want them to, shoot the way or speed you want them to, and how tournaments aren't run the way you want them too.. but self admittedly dont even attend. I understand there are important reasons why you dont, but you dont attend. Thats the reality. So why not quit complaining about stuff you dont experience, and let the rest of us actually enjoy the sport the way it is today in 2013, not the way it was in 1970.


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## BuckeyeArcher (Aug 8, 2002)

Just curious, does anyone feel that scoring x's as 6 for the pro's slowed things down? I imagine they were all being a little more deliberate with the smaller scoring area in play. I know at sectionals this year our AMFS group slowed down some to replace targets for the pro group behind us because the X's were shot up. I bet with a whole course full of pro's those closer targets had to have the target faces replaced quite often.


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## Brown Hornet (Aug 8, 2002)

ccwilder3 said:


> The problem with the current letdown rule is that it allows 12 letdowns per target.
> 
> While some FS'ers do shoot at a good pace, many don't and it seem to be getting worse. Since I started shooting in 2007 the rounds have gotten longer every year. The only difference I can see in equipment is the addition of electronics.


There isn't a person on the planet that is going to let down that many times....your gonna be out of gas before you hit the half way point....and if your shooting in my group your gonna start punching them off because we are gonna give you a hard enough time or leave you. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Brown Hornet (Aug 8, 2002)

BuckeyeArcher said:


> Just curious, does anyone feel that scoring x's as 6 for the pro's slowed things down? I imagine they were all being a little more deliberate with the smaller scoring area in play. I know at sectionals this year our AMFS group slowed down some to replace targets for the pro group behind us because the X's were shot up. I bet with a whole course full of pro's those closer targets had to have the target faces replaced quite often.


Not a chance that slowed anything down...if anyone says it did or does...they are kidding themselves and out of touch. 

Pros count Xs anyway...better Joes count Xs. I can't tell you how many times I have talked to X Hunter and gotten his X total along with his score...but I will say that it happens 99% of the time. Saying 20 and 3 instead of 20 doesn't add anything time wise. 

Heck I'm an bag Joe...never shot over a 545 in my life and I count Xs 

It takes all of MAYBE 30secs to hang a new face....and that's if there are multiple faces that need to be hung. 


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## r49740 (Dec 7, 2006)

Brown Hornet said:


> Not a chance that slowed anything down...if anyone says it did or does...they are kidding themselves and out of touch.
> 
> Pros count Xs anyway...better Joes count Xs. I can't tell you how many times I have talked to X Hunter and gotten his X total along with his score...but I will say that it happens 99% of the time. Saying 20 and 3 instead of 20 doesn't add anything time wise.
> 
> ...



The one you are quoting is definitely one of the, how you put it, "better Joe". He counts x's as did the whole group for sectionals. And since he was actually there, shooting, participating and actually on the course himself, then I would say it wouldnt be him that is out of touch. Hanging targets for the pro group behind us took more than 30 seconds. Not that it took minutes upon minutes to do, but it took more than 30 seconds. And to go with his point, there was a video of pros shooting 3d that bowjunky did that took those pros to call an arrow minutes.. .not for the whole group.. but for 1 arrow.. minutes. So now all x's count for every arrow for placement and winning... not for tie breakers. So it would be reasonable to assume they would take a little more time to call arrows on close ones, which is alway what he is saying.


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## ccwilder3 (Sep 13, 2003)

Brown Hornet said:


> There isn't a person on the planet that is going to let down that many times....your gonna be out of gas before you hit the half way point....and if your shooting in my group your gonna start punching them off because we are gonna give you a hard enough time or leave you.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



Check out some of the last tournament Jesse shot in overseas. It was broadcast on the internet. One of the guys shooting with Jesse was letting down so many times per target that they started showing other groups instead of JB and his group even though they were the leaders.


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## field14 (May 21, 2002)

gcab said:


> Has nothing to do with being a pro or not a pro. I haven't ever been on a field course that has taken 8 hours, including sectionals and nationals. Noone uses palm pilots anymore so that isn't the cause. Ipods aren't allowed to be listened to, so that isnt the cause. And I have never seen anyone let down 7-10 times. Now that is just in groups I have been in and the groups that have been around me, and groups that friends have been in or around them. But to hit a target with a rangefinder, take a look at a cut chart, set sight, shoot, check thorugh binos, adjust sight if needed, ect.. that stuff takes time. And my point is maybe some of us still enjoy archery enough that we dont feel the need to run through courses because someone else feels that it takes too long. And again, I say that while never being on a course anywhere near that amoutn of time... but I have never shot Redding. The point was is that almost every post you make is negative, how things aren't the way they were in the 80s or 70s, how people dont look the way you want them to, shoot the way or speed you want them to, and how tournaments aren't run the way you want them too.. but self admittedly dont even attend. I understand there are important reasons why you dont, but you dont attend. Thats the reality. So why not quit complaining about stuff you dont experience, and let the rest of us actually enjoy the sport the way it is today in 2013, not the way it was in 1970.


First....This crap of "rushing around the course" if taking 7 or 8 hours is just that, crap! Let me reiterate with direct quotes from PROS concerning the 8 hour Hunter round at DARRINGTON this year...this has nothing at all to do with Redding! These two Pros will remain nameless, so NO! I will not divulge their names because then they'd be chastised for "telling the truth" as they see it...But of course these two are "out of touch" with what is going on - - or so a couple of folks on here are implicating by calling the fieldman out of touch and Mr. Negative:
Well, since they are PROS, then maybe they have some clout and merit then!
_Quote #1_: "From a PRO that was at Darrington and likely not in the same group as Mike L. QUOTE:
“_On another note:
Palm pilots, iPhones, rangefinders, angle finders, chairs/seats/stool and poorly planed out shooting lanes = 8 hour hunter rounds! On and grown [email protected]@ men taking 12-15 mins. To draw 7-10 times to shoot 4 arrows!”_

Quote #2 From another NFAA Professional Archer concerning taking 8 hours to shoot a Hunter Round at Darrington in 2013: _“Personally I think it should be 5 or 6hrs max and be done. Whatever you turn in at the end of 6 hrs is what you get. 
Chr### almighty we were only talking about 35 pro shooters on 28 targets.. w t f !!! 8hours...da%%!!!
The letdowns im sure are a couple specific archers (they are known for it) 4 draws on almost every arrow at every target. Thats 16 draws per face for ONE GUY.... holy s##t sandwich I would have been a little aggravated. 
I dont mind the technical devices but there needs to be a time frame in place. 
Just like golf...just like asa
If your slow and holding s##t up they put you on the clock. 
You violate it and its a zero.
There are plenty of times groups go over the 1 min/2min at the stake rule but if the flow is good and groups are moving along pretty well with no backups they let it slide (within reason)
Time for the nfaa to get on that train!”_

So much for the fieldman being out of touch. 4 hours for the later 1970's - 80's drove off people to 3-D to never return. Then in the later 1980's through the 1990's for the same rounds, things went to 5 hours and many places put in a time limit at 5 hours (aggressive action). Then, in the 2000's it got to SIX (6) hours and the same things were said, "we shouldn't have to "RUSH" so what's the problem with it?" Then it got to 7 hours, and now 8 hours.
I agree it is not ALL groups that are doing this, but take a look at the above by people that have "merit." Are they out of touch? Are they just joshing around over this 8 hour stuff? I doubt it.

I'm not going to banter around anymore... What those two upstanding NFAA Professionals have to say pretty much backs up this "no account, not participating, old fart....that is out of touch with what is going on on the courses." Yep, I sure am.

With that, check out Posts: 1 (The original question that the fieldman did NOT start!), 4, 5, 24, 36, 37 and I guess these people are out of touch, too.

I sure to agree with what Mike Leiter says about the NFAA adapting, and I certainly agree with "Time for the NFAA to get on the train" that one NFAA Professional archer said, too....but oh, wait...that is negativity...for ME...but not for them?

I'm passionate about field shooting and after 45 years of shooting field archery...and paid up membership in the NFAA...I'm entitled to my opinion, and the way I look at it, if you don't like my posts...put me on your ignore list. The reality is this: 8 hours to shoot a hunter round regardless of location is NOT going to help field archery gain any ground. Some changes need to be made, you have the history of what has happened with time on the course since the 1970's...and it has gotten LONGER for the same thing??

Case closed...you all take your 8 hours and accept it...maybe next time, you'll be out from 9AM until 8PM to shoot 28 targets...wouldn't want to rush you all.....


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## carlosii (Feb 25, 2007)

field14 said:


> Yes, in a way, that is what I'm saying....the peer pressure of those faster groups losing their scores will come to bear on the slow groups...and either they allow the faster shooters to shoot through or all heck is going to break loose! .


well that might add a new dimension to archery...full body contact field archery...that'll bring 'em out of the woodwork. might even get the sport on t.v. instead of sounding a horn or shooting off a shotgun we just get that guy to announce "LET'S GET READY TO RUMBLE!"

:fencing::fencing:


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## Gapmaster (May 23, 2002)

I see that all sides have some good points. But for me, just my opinion, I hate being rushed. It's not your average Sunday 42 target shoot. It's the Nationals. And, if you want to beat me, then I say you need to beat me shooting my best arrow. If you win because your cardio was better, and my heart was still tacking at 150 during the shot and the end of my arrow was bouncing all over the place then you didn't beat me shooting at my best. You can still win, but your not the best per say. Now it has become a tournament of cardio health. Somebody before me posted that he was in his late 60's and recovery time from target to target was a challange. You young guys---your day is coming too. Because it's a National tournament, I say shoot as long as it takes, from the shotgun start till dark, or it gets to dark in the trees to see. So what if it takes all day. If you don't finish because it got to dark to shoot, well, to bad for your score then. Then, on the last day, the awards day, then set a time limit for that day only so there is time to tally scores and do awards. But to restrict people by taking away from them their ability to give you their best shot isn't right. I would rather win by beating someone having their best game, not by watching them under health stress all day. To say you are the best, you have to beat everyone at their best or the award means nothing. ( at least to me anyway). What's the all hell fire hurry for anyway. Your going to the Nationals for gods sake and it should be expected that people will be taking longer and trying harder to win or set records. What do you think would happen at Vegas if all the sudden someone said the rules have changed, now after each arrow you have to run around the perimeter of the room, then grab your bow and fire your next arrow all within 1 minute. I know it's a maybe not the best example to use, but none the less, the scores would drop remarkably. And probably the best scores would be shot by the very young healthy guys that have a faster heart recovery rate. It's about shooting the most accurate arrow, not about shooting the most arrows in the quickest time. Every course is different and some will take longer and some not as long. I say if you are going, then you should plan on shooting all day. That's why your going, to shoot and try and shoot well. Just my thoughts on the matter. The old, not so old, and young should all be on the same playing field and to set it up so the old or someone with a slight disability cannot play as well or at the same fair advantage as the young and healthy just isn't right. I'd like to see a pro bowler have to go up and down a 6 foot ladder 5 times then throw his ball in 30 seconds and still expect to bowl a 300. Not gonna happen. Anyway--


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## gcab (Mar 24, 2010)

Gapmaster said:


> I see that all sides have some good points. But for me, just my opinion, I hate being rushed. It's not your average Sunday 42 target shoot. It's the Nationals. And, if you want to beat me, then I say you need to beat me shooting my best arrow. If you win because your cardio was better, and my heart was still tacking at 150 during the shot and the end of my arrow was bouncing all over the place then you didn't beat me shooting at my best. You can still win, but your not the best per say. Now it has become a tournament of cardio health. Somebody before me posted that he was in his late 60's and recovery time from target to target was a challange. You young guys---your day is coming too. Because it's a National tournament, I say shoot as long as it takes, from the shotgun start till dark, or it gets to dark in the trees to see. So what if it takes all day. If you don't finish because it got to dark to shoot, well, to bad for your score then. Then, on the last day, the awards day, then set a time limit for that day only so there is time to tally scores and do awards. But to restrict people by taking away from them their ability to give you their best shot isn't right. I would rather win by beating someone having their best game, not by watching them under health stress all day. To say you are the best, you have to beat everyone at their best or the award means nothing. ( at least to me anyway). What's the all hell fire hurry for anyway. Your going to the Nationals for gods sake and it should be expected that people will be taking longer and trying harder to win or set records. What do you think would happen at Vegas if all the sudden someone said the rules have changed, now after each arrow you have to run around the perimeter of the room, then grab your bow and fire your next arrow all within 1 minute. I know it's a maybe not the best example to use, but none the less, the scores would drop remarkably. And probably the best scores would be shot by the very young healthy guys that have a faster heart recovery rate. It's about shooting the most accurate arrow, not about shooting the most arrows in the quickest time. Every course is different and some will take longer and some not as long. I say if you are going, then you should plan on shooting all day. That's why your going, to shoot and try and shoot well. Just my thoughts on the matter. The old, not so old, and young should all be on the same playing field and to set it up so the old or someone with a slight disability cannot play as well or at the same fair advantage as the young and healthy just isn't right. I'd like to see a pro bowler have to go up and down a 6 foot ladder 5 times then throw his ball in 30 seconds and still expect to bowl a 300. Not gonna happen. Anyway--


That was kind of my point as well.. .why not just take the time and enjoy it. If someone else wants to rush through, then thats up to them. But why not just enjoy the sport, and enjoy nationals. Try to do better and shoot well.. not rush through because someone else feels it should take a shorter time frame? Besides, Nationals are at locations that there is nothing else to do anyways. So whats the rush for.. to sit in a hotel room and complain about how everything sucks on AT? I'm with you.. who cares how long it takes. If someone wants to relax, try hard and actually enjoy the sport... why complain about that? And then wonder why numbers of participation go down while its just complaining and moaning about such nonsense as how long it takes someone else to shoot, or what someone else looks like, or what they use for their sight marks, etc. Oh and I'm a paid member too.. I guess thats important to say in every post.


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## giltyone (Nov 9, 2009)

If your field tournament follows international rules - then a 4-minute per archer rule may be enforced for groups causing undue delay.

However, a fun shoot is a different story. Question is, unless you're one of the organizers (to clean up) - do you feel it unfair to force people to wait for your slow progress?

It's a target shoot - supposed to be fun for ALL - you aren't calling the target in, waiting for it to turn broadside, and it isn't gonna spook if you make too much noise so just shoot it.

If you can't shoot that field target in a reasonable time - why bother shooting in a tournament?


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## mdc_56 (May 1, 2011)

I had a great time at my first field event a few weeks ago. Yea, it took about 3 1/2 to 4 hours to shoot. I enjoyed every minute of it. I shot in a group of 3. We shot, scored and moved on to the next target and had plenty of time to chat, wherever. We didn't hold anyone up and only caught 1 group who were nice enough to let us shoot through (it WAS a large group who apparently had some health issues and weren't shooting quite as fast as we were). I am an amateur but the gentlemen I shot with were accomplished archers at the pro level. If you all are saying that I'm going to spend twice as much time at other tournaments, you just lost this archer to field events. Ridiculous! I expect there would be others that would say the same, speculation of course. Other than chess and maybe checkers, would someone enlighten me to a sport that is not governed by some type of time frame, reasonably related to the venue of the sport? I've read all of your post, and know some of you personally. Quite honestly, what I have witnessed and read on this thread, there are a few of you who seem to believe that the sport of field archery revolves around you personally. The disrespect some of you have displayed for FELLOW archers has been extremely disturbing and I have to ask myself, why would you divulge such personal dislike on a wide open forum? I don't know what will keep me away from the events at this point, long rounds or inflated egos. Some of you folks are just plain disgusting! And that's all I have to say about that.


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## steve morley (Dec 24, 2005)

At our Nationals we let the Compounds/Freestyle start shooting 1.5 hours before everybody else, when they get to a certain part in the course the other competitors start shooting, this seems to work well with no holdups.

I shoot Euro Field champs a couple of weeks ago, when walking off the course as not to disturb a group we had to stand and wait for a group of women Freestyle Recuves to finish a target, one girl, glassed the target at least 4 times and drew up twice on every shooting position, it took her 15min just to shoot 4 arrows.

One of the reasons I enjoy WA3D with the 1min rule and you can only glass the target once. I think if competitors can only glass the target once per shooting stake might help speed up things a little on Field rounds, I see no reason to stand on the stake and glass the target for 1 min after the arrow has been shot only to walk to next stake and glass it once again for 1 min(arrow hasn't moved between shooting stakes), unless she was using some delay tactic to put her competitor off her shooting.


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## mag41vance (Mar 13, 2008)

gcab said:


> That was kind of my point as well.. .why not just take the time and enjoy it.


Problem is, "the time", is not just yours when it affects everyone else in an event that has to wait, wait, wait, wait. 

" I have one more. That was my third arrow, I have one more on this bunny" :eek2:

Now that's enjoyment! :noidea:

Have you ever sat on a splintered bench waiting and waiting for a single group to show up and turn their cards in so everyone can get the final results. Now that's fun! :wink: 

Enjoy yes, we all want that! But show respect to the other paying participants. :thumbs_up


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## mag41vance (Mar 13, 2008)

Balance is the key.

At the VFAA spring State shoot this year, I shot with a Dark-Side Shooter Bobby Kenley, and Jeremy dean BHFS shooter.
Jeremy is a fast shooter, Bobby is slower, I can be both. I have tournaments where I'm shooting 5-6 arrows per end just cause the brain isn't relaying properly. We all have those days. We made it work without any of us loosing their cool, and we enjoyed the day.(except when my riser cracked) :wink:

Just respect your group, be ready when it's your turn. Clean and lube your arrows while competitors are shooting, not when they are waiting for you to shoot.


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## field14 (May 21, 2002)

mdc_56 said:


> I had a great time at my first field event a few weeks ago. Yea, it took about 3 1/2 to 4 hours to shoot. I enjoyed every minute of it. I shot in a group of 3. We shot, scored and moved on to the next target and had plenty of time to chat, wherever. We didn't hold anyone up and only caught 1 group who were nice enough to let us shoot through (it WAS a large group who apparently had some health issues and weren't shooting quite as fast as we were). I am an amateur but the gentlemen I shot with were accomplished archers at the pro level. If you all are saying that I'm going to spend twice as much time at other tournaments, you just lost this archer to field events. Ridiculous! I expect there would be others that would say the same, speculation of course. _Other than chess and maybe checkers, would someone enlighten me to a sport that is not governed by some type of time frame, reasonably related to the venue of the sport?_ I've read all of your post, and know some of you personally. Quite honestly, what I have witnessed and read on this thread, there are a few of you who seem to believe that the sport of field archery revolves around you personally. The disrespect some of you have displayed for FELLOW archers has been extremely disturbing and I have to ask myself, why would you divulge such personal dislike on a wide open forum? I don't know what will keep me away from the events at this point, long rounds or inflated egos. Some of you folks are just plain disgusting! And that's all I have to say about that.


Well, let's add to the TIME LIMITS situation. Another competitive game that I was involved in during my younger days was competitive CHESS. I must add that even in CHESS, there IS a TIME LIMIT. 
For you people that think I'm out of touch, here's the rule in CHESS: "Before the game, the clock is set to a pre-determined time limit. The most popular time control in the United States gives each player two hours for the first 40 moves. If your opponent spends more than 2 hours for his first 40 moves, you win. However, you must keep score to claim a win by time in a non-sudden death time control.
After 40 moves, each player gets an extra hour. The extra-hour time control is a sudden death control. There are no chances to get any more time." I must add here, however that the above is normally for higher level chess games. For "local stuff" and smaller tournaments...the time limits are REDUCED and much smaller. You gotta know this before you enter the tournament...they won't bend the time limit rule because it is YOU that have graced the environs of the chess match hall!!

So ALL these sports and competitions have TIME LIMIT rules in place? How did all these time limits come about? Simple...PEOPLE ABUSING THINGS and going overboard, thus forcing the implementation of TIME LIMITS.

It is always a few self-centered, narcissistic, egotists that abuse things and make it tough on everyone else. Now we have people on here that apparently figure it is OK to be on a field course daylight til dark to shoot 28 targets? Insane!


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## montigre (Oct 13, 2008)

field14 said:


> Only in field archery (NFAA) is there this attitude of "take all day if you want" by a small group of people that make it tough on everyone else. It is a few self-centered, narcissistic egotists that are causing this problem that has gotten worse over just the past 10 years or so.


I find this statement to be very offensive. I do not believe anyone is intentionally plotting to slow down the groups or make it tough for anyone else on a field course, especially at a Sectionals or Nats and to state otherwise, IMO, shows a lack of joie de vive for the sport. I am left wondering exactly what could be your personal agenda for making such a harsh statement? I have never not been able to shoot through if backed up by a slower group and each time that has occurred, the slower group was more than courteous about it. 

At Nats last year, the groups I shot with (all FS, by the way) generally ended their rounds around 2:30-3pm each day (obviously faster for the animal round) and we had plenty of time and energy after tallying our scorecards to socialize, go shopping, practice a little more, whatever. Granted, Mechanicsburg is a relatively flat course with room enough to shoot 4 abreast which we usually did because we were not winded between targets from trekking around a very hilly course, but we were also not racing around the course either, but shooting at a comfortable leisurely pace. 

Other courses have very different terrains which can and likely do affect how long it may take to complete. However, making a blanket statement that all field shoots now take upwards of 8 hours to complete when, in fact, this may be particular only to one or two courses at a couple of individual ranges, and this slowing is caused by shooters too much into themselves, paints a very inaccurate picture of field archery as a whole.


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## Gapmaster (May 23, 2002)

> It is always a few self-centered, narcissistic, egotists that abuse things and make it tough on everyone else. Now we have people on here that apparently figure it is OK to be on a field course daylight til dark to shoot 28 targets? Insane!


Why has it become with you Tom that if someone else has a different point of view than maybe you do you have to revert to name calling of sorts. So now I'm self centered? Now I'm narcissistic? I'm an egotist and I abuse things? All because I have a different point of view? Maybe you need some counseling of some sort if all it takes is a different opinion to start you passing judgement on people you don't know a thing about, or passing judgement on the small group of people you seemed to have included me in that's insane.



> Now we have people on here


What does that mean, like you and your friends own the forum board and some outsiders have infiltrated you and your buddies space?

Say what you will. If you don't like my ideas too bad. My opinion still is and will remain that in this accuracy sport some people do not want to be rushed. And I am one of them. Public board and I'm posting my opinion---- not yours. And, to group someone into a certain kind of class of person because of their idea, ---, well, lets just say it doesn't look good to other archers acting that way to other archers, and it could look negative towards you. I don't think it's necessary at all and think most would agree. It's just someones opinion on a subject--so relax. Gapmaster


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## blade37defender (Jun 8, 2005)

Bearlee said:


> Well said. I have never shot a field round. Have never had the opportunity, when there was not a 3D scheduled. It seems everytime they have a field shoot, they overlap, and the championships for both have been the same date for the past 2 years. I started competing in 3D last year. I enjoy it, but in 3D 25 target in 4-5 hours is too much. I have been looking at field, but the closest shoots are typically 2-3 hours away. I would like to try it but traveling 5-6 hours and spending 8 hours to shoot this type of event is not something I would enjoy, much less getting anyone to go with me to do that. I can shoot in my yard for enjoyment I guess.


Bear - I promise I'll have you on the field ranges with me next year. You hit the nail on the head with field in our area, none are very nearby. I shoot at Yadkin (1 hr 45 mins), TABs (50 mins) and Keowee (1 hr 30 mins). Outside of those, none are close. I can assure you it doesn't take 8 hours to shoot a round or I wouldn't be doing it myself, at least not for a local fun shoot. The longest I've ever spent on a round at any of these courses is TABs (and that was 5 1/2 hours) because they show you the ENTIRE property, the field course is built on the outside of the 3D course. It's just a lot of walking between targets. But with that said, I'll get you out there next season. Plus, we do have a full STAR FITA range at Green Creek now too :shade:


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## Brown Hornet (Aug 8, 2002)

ccwilder3 said:


> Check out some of the last tournament Jesse shot in overseas. It was broadcast on the internet. One of the guys shooting with Jesse was letting down so many times per target that they started showing other groups instead of JB and his group even though they were the leaders.


I get that buddy....I truly do. But my point was that its not that extreme in all of or the majority of the groups. Yes there are slow shooters...and guys that are finicky with calling....and guys that let down a lot. I get all that. 

No I didn't shoot Nats this year....but I promise if any of you guys wants to pay my way to the shoot...I will never miss another one. :wink: 

I wasn't there....so what. But my point was that I have been to enough bigger field shoots and shot with, against, behind and in front of enough of the avg Joes...most of us... Better top Joes...from Hinky, Brad Baker, Pero, Bob R. Mopar when he was playing with the 50s ad plenty of guys that are good shooters....but I have also done the same with old guys like Ron West and some guys from NJ and plenty if others like Rick Stark shooting his normal class and FS... Pros like Sugar Shane Wills, Braden, Cousins, Jesse, Kedall, GP, Ericka, Diane Watson and countless others.... Everyone of them score the way the Pros did this year....making the calls the same way. Most of them count Xs...heck I did when I was shooting 510s and I do it now in the 40s. It's just the game....

I had times when I let down a lot....ask Sticky and Shane...and everyone else. I had rounds with Hinky when I let down a good deal. He even told me if I didn't stop letting down he was gonna make me shoot his Carter.... We still finished in under 3 hours.... Had days when Bowgod let down so much and moved so slow that it took us 6+ hours. Shot.an entire round with Spoon, Baker, and another shooter and with almost hour long break we still shot the course under 5 the day before 

I call EVERY time we shoot...that goes for local shoots, LAS Classic, Mids, Stats...and Nationals...all 5 days. Every group.....even ASA Pro AMs and IBO Worlds. Be the caller if others score to slow for you...three Pros in my group...so what call. They will tell you when your wrong...I can count the # of times I have had an issue when you call it straight up and call it like it lays on one hand. 

Some ranges are slower then others....how slow are people moving between targets? Are you one of those groups that stands in front of the targets and talks after the arrows have been pulled? A lot of people are...say something if the group in front of you is one of those groups. 

My posts were not directed at anyone in general....even the people that I quoted....I was simply replying to your statement... 

When I am "directly calling out someone" or "responding to or at someone" everyone will be sure :chortle: 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Brown Hornet (Aug 8, 2002)

Gapmaster said:


> Why has it become with you Tom that if someone else has a different point of view than maybe you do you have to revert to name calling of sorts. So now I'm self centered? Now I'm narcissistic? I'm an egotist and I abuse things? All because I have a different point of view? Maybe you need some counseling of some sort if all it takes is a different opinion to start you passing judgement on people you don't know a thing about, or passing judgement on the small group of people you seemed to have included me in that's insane.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


:chortle: good post. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## gcab (Mar 24, 2010)

field14 said:


> Well, let's add to the TIME LIMITS situation. Another competitive game that I was involved in during my younger days was competitive CHESS. I must add that even in CHESS, there IS a TIME LIMIT.
> For you people that think I'm out of touch, here's the rule in CHESS: "Before the game, the clock is set to a pre-determined time limit. The most popular time control in the United States gives each player two hours for the first 40 moves. If your opponent spends more than 2 hours for his first 40 moves, you win. However, you must keep score to claim a win by time in a non-sudden death time control.
> After 40 moves, each player gets an extra hour. The extra-hour time control is a sudden death control. There are no chances to get any more time." I must add here, however that the above is normally for higher level chess games. For "local stuff" and smaller tournaments...the time limits are REDUCED and much smaller. You gotta know this before you enter the tournament...they won't bend the time limit rule because it is YOU that have graced the environs of the chess match hall!!
> 
> ...


Best part of field archery for me is not having to shoot next to, with, or around attitudes like this.


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## field14 (May 21, 2002)

gcab said:


> Best part of field archery for me is not having to shoot next to, with, or around attitudes like this.


There are two sides to every coin...insulting people like you do...pretty much forces those whom you insult to have the same sentiments!

As much as I like field archery, IF I knew I was always going to face 6-8 hours or more to shoot 28 targets...I'd do exactly what so many field archers did in the 1980's when it was only FOUR hours to shoot 28 field targets or 28 hunter targets...I'd go shoot 3-D's!

Talk about the pot calling the kettle black? Take a look in the mirror...
I'm entitled to my opinion, and if you don't like my opinion, simply put me on your ignore list..or skip reading my opinions.

And to Gapmaster, you said: _"Originally Posted by Gapmaster View Post
Why has it become with you Tom that if someone else has a different point of view than maybe you do you have to revert to name calling of sorts. So now I'm self centered? Now I'm narcissistic? I'm an egotist and I abuse things? All because I have a different point of view? Maybe you need some counseling of some sort if all it takes is a different opinion to start you passing judgement on people you don't know a thing about, or passing judgement on the small group of people you seemed to have included me in that's insane"_

Did I name YOU by name? I don't think so. So, in that case, then, you must feel guilty or something. YOU have apparently included yourself in the category of the "small group of people". However, If the shoe fits...and all that.

You said YOUR opinion is important and you have a right to it? I agree with that on both and you are entitled to those opinions. However, you're attacking me for MY opinion and telling me of sorts....I do NOT have the right to MINE? You don't know me one bit either, so once again...as I said above...look in the mirror.

Obviously we'll simply have to agree to disagree on this time issue debate.

I would prefer to shoot 3-D rather than go onto a field or hunter course and take 6,7 or 8 hours to shoot 28 targets...wouldn't waste my time and certainly wouldn't waste my money. If that is the way it is to become, then maybe I can rest more easy by not being able to go to the events I want(ed) to...You guys are saving me a fortune...and probably a lot of other folks that refuse to spend 6-7- or 8 hours to shoot ONE round of field or hunter.


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## rock monkey (Dec 28, 2002)

field14 said:


> There are two sides to every coin...insulting people like you do...pretty much forces those whom you insult to have the same sentiments!
> 
> As much as I like field archery, IF I knew I was always going to face 6-8 hours or more to shoot 28 targets...I'd do exactly what so many field archers did in the 1980's when it was only FOUR hours to shoot 28 field targets or 28 hunter targets...I'd go shoot 3-D's!
> 
> ...


they arent opinions, they're lectures


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## field14 (May 21, 2002)

rock monkey said:


> they arent opinions, they're lectures


Everyone is also free to express their opinions in their own style...

Because at this point, FIDGAS. Do the easy thing...put me on your ignore list, or skip over what I post. Simple.

By the way, I really am relaxed. You are all helping me out a lot in compartmentalizing a lot of things about how the clientele of the current run of field shooters are operating. And you are right...I might not like it, and I've told you so. 

But, when that time limit for shooting a field or hunter round does come about, OR when field archery does die...just remember what the fieldman told you about taking too much time...and how over the years going from 4 hours and now up to 8 hours has had a huge affect on numbers of participants which has steadily declined, remember, I told you so. 
Always remember, on all of the rounds we used to and all that we still do shoot, at first, had NO time limit...but take a looky see..and EVERY one of the rounds has a time limit involved with them, barring shooting field and hunter and animal rounds in the NFAA. Just a matter of time (pun intended). How did those time limits come about? Simple...a few royally abused things by taking as much time as they felt like and to heck with everyone else.
If you are one of those that figures you'll take as long as you want, any time you want, you are the cause of the problem and not the solution to the problem.
FIDGAS.


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## gcab (Mar 24, 2010)

field14 said:


> Everyone is also free to express their opinions in their own style...
> 
> Because at this point, FIDGAS. I'll do things my way, and you do things your way, but don't come on to me and insult or basically say I can't post what my opinions are in a long format.
> Then do the easy thing...put me on your ignore list, or skip over what I post. Simple.


Haha Almost comical how grumpy some people get for others taking their time to enjoy shooting. But since we take too long, and you won't participate, then that is a win win for sure.


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## field14 (May 21, 2002)

gcab said:


> Haha Almost comical how grumpy some people get for others taking their time to enjoy shooting. But since we take too long, and you won't participate, then that is a win win for sure.


Ain't this fun entertainment? You "baiting" me, and me "baiting right back"? Kinda like playing bait tag, huh?

What I get tend to get grumpy (as you call it) about is "others taking their time to enjoy shooting" at the expense of everyone else; especially when those that hold up the show are the MINORITY that don't seem to give one rat's arse about anyone or anything else but themselves.
You can't see the writing on the wall by abusing how long it takes?
When I started in this game there were no time limits on any rounds we shot, indoors or out. Now, however, there are time limits on EVERY round we shoot, except for field/hunter/animal. BUT...technically, a tournament chairman has the right to place a TIME LIMIT at his/her discretion if things are getting out of hand! You slowies are asking for it, so don't be surprised or unprepared when (not if) this comes about!

Another interesting fact (most all of you weren't in the game back then)....the time limit for the NFAA Indoor 300 round was initially FIVE (5) minutes for five arrows. That was put into effect because a FEW people (and yes, I can name who a few of those people were too!) made a habit of taking 8-10 minutes for five shots. That time limit for five shots has been Shortened up to FOUR (4) minutes for five arrows. 

The time limit for the Vegas 300 round? Used to be 3 minutes for 3 arrows. Now it is 2 1/2 minutes for three arrows. There has been talk of shortening that up to TWO minutes for 3 arrows! On a World Cup match, you have ONE minute per shot, which means you don't really have time for even one let down! Go ahead, "take your time and enjoy shooting."
Notice that time limits are being SHORTENED, not expanded to allow slowies to "take their time and enjoy shooting."


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## Gapmaster (May 23, 2002)

Tom,-------------I said



> Because it's a National tournament, I say shoot as long as it takes, from the shotgun start till dark, or it gets to dark in the trees to see.


Then you posted this--------------



> Now we have people on here that apparently figure it is OK to be on a field course daylight til dark to shoot 28 targets? Insane!


Then you said------------------



> Did I name YOU by name? I don't think so. So, in that case, then, you must feel guilty or something. YOU have apparently included yourself in the category of the "small group of people". However, If the shoe fits...and all that.


So yea, you named me, not by name, but by what I had posted because it didn't agree with you. Everyone can see it so dancing around it won't help you. It's blended in with all the rest of your redarick and what you said didn't just insult me, it insulted others who are like minded when it comes to taking a little longer to shoot than you would want to allow. 

You said----



> However, you're attacking me for MY opinion and telling me of sorts....I do NOT have the right to MINE? You don't know me one bit either, so once again...as I said above...look in the mirror.


I don't see one place in my post attacking you for having an opinion. What I did tell you though was you were calling people names for having an opinion different than yours. Everyone can read that too and see what I said which is nothing even remotely close to your aqusation in your quote above.

You said------



> Obviously we'll simply have to agree to disagree on this time issue debate.


I got no problem with that at all. I just thought classifying people with lousy names was uncalled for. Still do.

Once again, I was telling you that going to the world of name calling was not necessary. You don't have to like it, but that's exactly what you did. When I post, I post "to people" not "at them" like some people do. And I sure don't call them names or group them into some kind category. I could, very easily, but I don't. Just something to think about.

By the way, my opinion is people that shoot too fast don't really get to enjoy the whole aspect of archery. But, they can continue to shoot fast if they want to,------------- just don't tell me to do it. My opinion---------------


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## field14 (May 21, 2002)

So, I"ll take this bait, and offer you some more bait: First off it is "rhetoric" and not "redarick", HAHA...
This is getting to be more fun by the post.
Amazing you get on ME...yet two Professional archers are saying basically the same thing bout those taking too long and the causes...and one used the word "Insane" when it comes to 8 hours on the course...but you nail ME, and chastise me?
Problem is when those slowies are out on the course...the people that shoot what you classify as "fast" CANNOT continue to shoot what YOU classify as fast..because people like you hold the entire course hostage and force them to shoot at YOUR pace! The majority's rhythm gets "busted" so that the minority can take all day if they feel like it. But maybe that is part of your strategy, too...to screw up your fellow archers and make them play YOUR game.

4 hours to shoot a 28 target round drove off shooters in droves towards 3-D; do you really think 8 hours or sunrise to sunset is going to bring in more shooters? I seriously doubt that.
So, I now have another question for you. You slow shooters that want to do your thing from daylight til dark when you cannot see thru the trees anymore and then you turn in your scorecards. Just when does the tournament committee get the chance to get things done and the next day's target assignments completed? Oh, you don't CARE to consider that either, let alone your fellow shooters that you held up all day long.
But that is OK...you turn in your cards at dark and then go to counting sheep while the tournament committee is forced to burn the midnight oil just so you can go out and repeat it all over again the next morning...and shoot daylight til dark again. Makes so much sense....NOT.

But apparently you don't care about that at all. You'll just take YOUR sweet time, all day if need be" to enjoy YOUR archery and to heck with everyone else. You'll just take up something else when field archery dies as a result of those abuses (among other abuses and other problems as well).
The slowies are part of the problem and aren't offering solutions other than to change things around to shorten things...but then...even shortened up on the rounds, it almost sounds like you'd STILL wanna shoot from day light until dark anyways.


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## mag41vance (Mar 13, 2008)

Brown Hornet said:


> :chortle: good post.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Are you happy Reverend Hunt? :fencing:

You started this Forum!


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## hdracer (Aug 8, 2007)

Set up 3 courses...the slow, the fast and the halfast :wink: ...everyone will be happy. 

I like shooting field but definitely would not want to, or enjoy, 8 hours on the course. Haven't had the opportunity to shoot a large tournament since there have been none close enough for me to attend. If I knew going in that it would take 7-8 hours each day for 3-5 days I would pass on attending. I'm not a fast shooter and don't like rushing but there is a line between comfortable and crawling. 7-8 hours is crawling. That is why I dropped 3D due to the exorbitant wait time between shots. 6 hours for 30 arrows? Not for me...


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## field14 (May 21, 2002)

hdracer said:


> Set up 3 courses...the slow, the fast and the halfast :wink: ...everyone will be happy.
> 
> I like shooting field but definitely would not want to, or enjoy, 8 hours on the course. Haven't had the opportunity to shoot a large tournament since there have been none close enough for me to attend. If I knew going in that it would take 7-8 hours each day for 3-5 days I would pass on attending. I'm not a fast shooter and don't like rushing but there is a line between comfortable and crawling. 7-8 hours is crawling. That is why I dropped 3D due to the exorbitant wait time between shots. 6 hours for 30 arrows? Not for me...


Bingo! And exactly a huge part of the reason(s) why the down-hill spiral in attendance started once field round times hit just over four hours (plus making the target harder)...and now it has doubled that...and people actually seem to want MORE time? Sure fire way to kill attendance off.


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## montigre (Oct 13, 2008)

It does NOT take 8 hours to shoot a normal field round. 4 1/2--5 1/2 hours, yes, but the 8+ hour field times are an exception to the rule and I am speaking of both the "big" shoots as well as the local shoots. You keep blowing it totally out of proportion and may actually be scaring people away by perpetuating this misinformation. There were a couple of slow ranges at Darrington, I was not there, so cannot attest to what may have caused the hold up. This is usually not the case. Shooting 112 plus arrows in 4-5 hours is an acceptable time frame, IMO, which still leaves plenty of time for non-archery tasks afterward. The FITA shoots I've attended have actually taken longer to complete than the field rounds and for those you're not spending the time trekking from one target to the other....


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## gcab (Mar 24, 2010)

montigre said:


> It does NOT take 8 hours to shoot a normal field round. 4 1/2--5 1/2 hours, yes, but the 8+ hour field times are an exception to the rule and I am speaking of both the "big" shoots as well as the local shoots. You keep blowing it totally out of proportion and may actually be scaring people away by perpetuating this misinformation. There were a couple of slow ranges at Darrington, I was not there, so cannot attest to what may have caused the hold up. This is usually not the case. Shooting 112 plus arrows in 4-5 hours is an acceptable time frame, IMO, which still leaves plenty of time for non-archery tasks afterward. The FITA shoots I've attended have actually taken longer to complete than the field rounds and for those you're not spending the time trekking from one target to the other....



yes. this is true. I have actually been to the tournaments(not darrington this year) but the nationals the last few years.. and never have I seen 8 hours on the course. But of course someone not there would know better because they communicate with someone else. I understand what is meant by "puzzled archer" now. Seems to argue with everyone about any big tourney and whats wrong with them, while not even being there, and then wonders why people seem to disagree with the "opinion" that is spewed. Like I said.. just happy I dont have to shoot with this attitude and haven't had the displeasure of being around anyone like this at any tournament I have been too. Course maybe that's because those that attend actually enjoy the sport more than enjoy arguing and moaning about it.


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## hdracer (Aug 8, 2007)

montigre said:


> It does NOT take 8 hours to shoot a normal field round. 4 1/2--5 1/2 hours, yes, but the 8+ hour field times are an exception to the rule and I am speaking of both the "big" shoots as well as the local shoots. You keep blowing it totally out of proportion and may actually be scaring people away by perpetuating this misinformation. There were a couple of slow ranges at Darrington, I was not there, so cannot attest to what may have caused the hold up. This is usually not the case. Shooting 112 plus arrows in 4-5 hours is an acceptable time frame, IMO, which still leaves plenty of time for non-archery tasks afterward. The FITA shoots I've attended have actually taken longer to complete than the field rounds and for those you're not spending the time trekking from one target to the other....


Yes, Montigre, I agree. 4-5 hours is fine...maybe a little more even. FITA rounds do take all day but there are breaks and time to sit between ends. Not so on a field course...hence the stools and archery chairs. I'm not saying I need to be as comfortable as shooting in the back yard, far from it. But spending 6+ hours on any course takes more out of me than actually shooting and it starts to get boring. In a FITA shoot you can get into a rhythm...you know you need to keep and eye on the clock both while shooting and waiting. I hope to never experience a 7-8 hour round but I'm sure it will happen if I increase my shooting schedule. I also hope that the slower groups will allow faster ones to shoot through...they want their leisurely shooting time and I'd like to get done in what I believe is a reasonable amount of time.


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## mag41vance (Mar 13, 2008)

How bout requiring all archers to shoot color coded bows. Brown for Super fast(Trad shooters), Red-Orange for Fast, Green= Fast Dark-Side, Blue for don't care, Black or Camo for "I brought a lunch and a magazine and tell jokes" slow shooters. That way we can stereotype archers. :becky: 
I know peer groups are discouraged, but in some regards peer groups will always be the correct approach! That is pretty much the way we ALLLLL live & breath! In our groups of preference. The diametrically apposed opinions I've been reading here prove that. 
Generally trying to work things out with the shield of a Keyboard, is less effective than in person respectful engagement. Whatever that is these days. :noidea:


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## hdracer (Aug 8, 2007)

Have the slow groups start at 3-4 pm...:wink:


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## Brown Hornet (Aug 8, 2002)

mag41vance said:


> Are you happy Reverend Hunt? :fencing:
> 
> You started this Forum!


Yep...glad people are talking about something. :wink:

Now...am I following along with all of this really? Nope :chortle: 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## r49740 (Dec 7, 2006)

Last year at nationals, I am pretty sure we were off the course by 2:30 every day, 4 of the days. Can't remember the animal round time but I'm sure it was earlier than that. And if I recall, shotgun start was at 9, but possibly 8:30. Don't recall for certain. So lets say 8:30, and done at 3. Thats 6.5 hours of shooting. In that time, I shot 4 practice arrows and 112 scoring arrows. Thats 116 shots in 6.5 hours, which includes 3 other people in my group, shooting 2 at a time, spotting arrows, scoring, pulling, walking and scorecards turned in. 

There was a 3d tournament this weekend. They shot 40 arrows, and the good ones shot 50 I believe. Would be willing to bet they spent more than 6.5 hours on the range, in fact that was shot over 2 days. So in 2 days, they shot about a third of what is shot in 6.5 hours(assuming long times) for field.

Why is it that field all of a sudden is the one that takes too long?


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## Spoon13 (Feb 20, 2007)

r49740 said:


> Last year at nationals, I am pretty sure we were off the course by 2:30 every day, 4 of the days. Can't remember the animal round time but I'm sure it was earlier than that. And if I recall, shotgun start was at 9, but possibly 8:30. Don't recall for certain. So lets say 8:30, and done at 3. Thats 6.5 hours of shooting. In that time, I shot 4 practice arrows and 112 scoring arrows. Thats 116 shots in 6.5 hours, which includes 3 other people in my group, shooting 2 at a time, spotting arrows, scoring, pulling, walking and scorecards turned in.
> 
> There was a 3d tournament this weekend. They shot 40 arrows, and the good ones shot 50 I believe. Would be willing to bet they spent more than 6.5 hours on the range, in fact that was shot over 2 days. So in 2 days, they shot about a third of what is shot in 6.5 hours(assuming long times) for field.
> 
> Why is it that field all of a sudden is the one that takes too long?


There should be a "Like" button somewhere on here. No take that back, how about a "LOVE IT" button??

I'm one of those guys that shoots Freestyle. I have my marks on my iPhone and I glass targets to see where people have been hitting and where my arrows are going, I let down if the shot doesn't feel right or it takes too long to break, and I prefer to shoot 2 wide instead of 4. So according to some on here I am the Anti-Christ of Field Archery. 

That said, I have NEVER been on a Field range for 8 hours. NEVER!!!!! Most of the time I'm on and off the range in 4-5 hours. The absolute longest time I have EVER been on a range was at the State 3D CHampionship many years ago. It took us 7 hours to shoot 30 targets. 7 HOURS?!?!? Are you kidding me?? 

Field archery has many issues that keep it from growing and NONE of them is the game itself.


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## ccwilder3 (Sep 13, 2003)

Spoon13=666 :teeth:

Kidding aside Spoon, how do you think groups that are taking well over 4-5 hours to shoot should be handled?


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## hdracer (Aug 8, 2007)

r49740 said:


> Last year at nationals, I am pretty sure we were off the course by 2:30 every day, 4 of the days. Can't remember the animal round time but I'm sure it was earlier than that. And if I recall, shotgun start was at 9, but possibly 8:30. Don't recall for certain. So lets say 8:30, and done at 3. Thats 6.5 hours of shooting. In that time, I shot 4 practice arrows and 112 scoring arrows. Thats 116 shots in 6.5 hours, which includes 3 other people in my group, shooting 2 at a time, spotting arrows, scoring, pulling, walking and scorecards turned in.
> 
> There was a 3d tournament this weekend. They shot 40 arrows, and the good ones shot 50 I believe. Would be willing to bet they spent more than 6.5 hours on the range, in fact that was shot over 2 days. So in 2 days, they shot about a third of what is shot in 6.5 hours(assuming long times) for field.
> 
> Why is it that field all of a sudden is the one that takes too long?





Spoon13 said:


> There should be a "Like" button somewhere on here. No take that back, how about a "LOVE IT" button??
> 
> I'm one of those guys that shoots Freestyle. I have my marks on my iPhone and I glass targets to see where people have been hitting and where my arrows are going, I let down if the shot doesn't feel right or it takes too long to break, and I prefer to shoot 2 wide instead of 4. So according to some on here I am the Anti-Christ of Field Archery.
> 
> ...


By and large I think most courses don't take that long to shoot. Add a large number of shooters to a rugged course and I think that changes. There is a difference between shooting slow due to conditions and shooting slow because those in front of you just don't care about what's going on behind them. Some of the responses here make it seem like they thrive on causing others grief (the just-because-I-can type) by shooting extremely slow.


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## ryanboyle (Dec 31, 2008)

I was in Darrington this year, and it was my first national ( and I believe I might have been the only Canadian to boot). I shoot FS and was on Bobcat day 1.... That was a tough hike. 8 1/2 hours on the course. I use archers mark on my iphone and I would have to say, of the 3 guys using it in my group, we tended to be as fast as the group ahead of us using cut charts. 

We had 2 BIG backups on day 4 and 5 on Coyote and Cougar caused by a group not being ready to shoot. I personally watched the same guy 5 separate times, walk to the stake ( shooting 2 pair) look at the peg for the distance, check his card, adjust, glass, adjust again. It was insane to watch someone on the SECOND line NOT know what distance and have his scope set before you walk up.

I mean come on, I have a shot routine, but I would get to the target, while the other group scored, I had my scope set, and was waiting for them to call clear,, and then I was drawing on target. I would have liked to have seen a TO or "referee" every few targets to enforce some sort of "pace of play".. the LONG shots were where we found hold ups. 

As for the pro's,, they were a decent group to shoot/interact with...the pro am was fun to do. But they shot their first round on Dylan ...... I don't understand how you don't put the top shooters in the USA on the 3 most difficult courses ( hike and shot selections) and keep them off the super flat, clean round-able, "easy" walk-through course..

Just my 2 cents though,, I will definitely be back in 3 years with a "team" from Canada to shoot with.


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## Eriks (Nov 8, 2011)

ryanboyle said:


> But they shot their first round on Dylan ...... I don't understand how you don't put the top shooters in the USA on the 3 most difficult courses ( hike and shot selections) and keep them off the super flat, clean round-able, "easy" walk-through course..


I thought this was odd too. We shot Dylan and Deer the first two days (before the mostly pros showed up). Then we shot Coyote and Cougar Friday and Saturday. We shot the Animal round on Bobcat.


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## Spoon13 (Feb 20, 2007)

ccwilder3 said:


> Spoon13=666 :teeth:
> 
> Kidding aside Spoon, how do you think groups that are taking well over 4-5 hours to shoot should be handled?


The universal problem with archery is that it is, for the most part, self policing. WE the shooters are responsible for maintaining the integrity of the games we play. If there is a group causing a problem, address it. Ask to shoot through if they are holding things up. If they choose to get biligerant about it, get a range official to put them on the clock.


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## Spoon13 (Feb 20, 2007)

hdracer said:


> By and large I think most courses don't take that long to shoot. Add a large number of shooters to a rugged course and I think that changes. There is a difference between shooting slow due to conditions and shooting slow because those in front of you just don't care about what's going on behind them. Some of the responses here make it seem like they thrive on causing others grief (the just-because-I-can type) by shooting extremely slow.


I agree. If the course has tough terrain and walk back targets it will slow the pace. Add to that a large number of shooters and it will slow even more. As long as the overall pace is univerally the same and shooters are moving as quickly as possible without being forced to rush, then there shouldn't be a problem but I don't feel that is the issue we are discussing here. 

The problem lies in those that are completely oblivious to the World around them and the people in it. I enjoy shooting Field and I enjoy being on the course. That being said, if I find that my group is falling behind the pace I usually mention that we are falling behind and need to eliminate any extraneous time that we can to get back to where we need to be. Although that hasn't happened since I quit shooting 3D. :becky:


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## mag41vance (Mar 13, 2008)

How about Penalties for taking longer than the allotted time for the tournament. For instance x's don't count if cards are turned in after the set time. Now that's incentive. Every group needs a time keeper to keep them aware of where they are in regards to the time.


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## 2-STROKE (Aug 17, 2006)

I think the easiest thing to do is to make the field round enjoyable for EVERYONE... so why not shorten the event to one target (e.g., the bunny). It is a challenging shot! It's close, less walking. Less people will be kicking leaves looking for arrows. Its only 4 arrows, so I can add that up quick when I get back to the picnic tables. -_- I can regain my weekends doing yard work again, instead of 8+ hours of shooting my bow and arrows that I have taken so long to set up and read weeks worth of material on AT for... Man, if I could only get back to working in the yard instead of shooting... man I would truly be happy! -_-


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## hdracer (Aug 8, 2007)

2-STROKE said:


> I think the easiest thing to do is to make the field round enjoyable for EVERYONE... so why not shorten the event to one target (e.g., the bunny). It is a challenging shot! It's close, less walking. Less people will be kicking leaves looking for arrows. Its only 4 arrows, so I can add that up quick when I get back to the picnic tables. -_- I can regain my weekends doing yard work again, instead of 8+ hours of shooting my bow and arrows that I have taken so long to set up and read weeks worth of material on AT for... Man, if I could only get back to working in the yard instead of shooting... man I would truly be happy! -_-


Done. Your field round is a Bunny. When you're done with your yard you can clean up mine...and everyone else's here...just think how happy you'd be with 4-5 yards to take care of...LOL.


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## huteson2us2 (Jun 22, 2005)

I do enjoy the Nationals when it comes to Darrington. It is a tough course and I remember in 1982 running up the hill to the coyote range. Now I'm tired out by the time I walk to my target. The stakes were way too close together to shoot more than two at a time on the fans and not enough room to shoot more than one at a time on several walk-ups including the 80 yd walk-up. Not the fault of Darrington as they do not own the land and are not allowed to cut trees.

If you did not shoot in Darrington, you have no right to complain about the time it took to complete it. I had severe leg cramps all night after shooting the coyote range and had to do it all over again on cougar and bobcat on the next two days in a row. We seniors did complain about only shooting the flat ranges three years ago, but did not expect to have to shoot the three toughest courses on the first three days of the tournament. We were still draging when we finally shot on the flat courses. They could have mixed it up a little.When I say seniors, I do not mean 50 year olds. I'm talking over 65.

Complaining about the time it took to shoot at Darrington without attending is worse that complaining about the president without voting. I have only missed one Redding shoot in the last 25 years even though it is the longest tournament I have ever attended. This is because I enjoy shooting and I have never been in a hurry to finish and get off the range.


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## ccwilder3 (Sep 13, 2003)

huteson2us2 said:


> I do enjoy the Nationals when it comes to Darrington. It is a tough course and I remember in 1982 running up the hill to the coyote range. Now I'm tired out by the time I walk to my target. The stakes were way too close together to shoot more than two at a time on the fans and not enough room to shoot more than one at a time on several walk-ups including the 80 yd walk-up. Not the fault of Darrington as they do not own the land and are not allowed to cut trees.
> 
> If you did not shoot in Darrington, you have no right to complain about the time it took to complete it. I had severe leg cramps all night after shooting the coyote range and had to do it all over again on cougar and bobcat on the next two days in a row. We seniors did complain about only shooting the flat ranges three years ago, but did not expect to have to shoot the three toughest courses on the first three days of the tournament. We were still draging when we finally shot on the flat courses. They could have mixed it up a little.When I say seniors, I do not mean 50 year olds. I'm talking over 65.
> 
> Complaining about the time it took to shoot at Darrington without attending is worse that complaining about the president without voting. I have only missed one Redding shoot in the last 25 years even though it is the longest tournament I have ever attended. This is because I enjoy shooting and I have never been in a hurry to finish and get off the range.


If you read my original post, it was not about nationals. That said, taking an inordinate amount of time to shoot and score is what I'm talking about. I certainly understand the terrain adding time but the course I was shooting on is flat as a pancake.


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