# Dis-spelling The Myths of Brass Nocking Points



## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

Gentlefolk...I've recently resolved a problem I was having concerning the use of "Tabs" whereby I concluded that a certain tab made of comparatively THICK cordovan leather proved unsuitable for use by me and was simply "Too Thick & Too Stiff" to allow the string of my low poundage target rig to cleanly leave my fingers without a short side trip into my face as the string hopped over the very thick and stiff tab that was more like saddle leather than supple leather and left my lower right lip wearing a scab for most of last week.

That issue was resolved by replacing the very thick and stiff new tab with my old much thinner and far more supple Rod Jenkins tab made by Wyoming Wildlife Artistry....and Viola!...a clean release sans any stinging pain or profuse bleeding!

Problem Identified and Successfully Resolved! 

But in the process?...some challenged my use of (1) Brass Nocking Point (up top) as I use a Tie-On below (so as not to chew up my glove or tab) but greatly prefer the precise stability and security that using a brass crimp-on nocking point provides up top however....

It seems to me that these tiny, rubber lined, brass components have been wrongfully demonized over the past few decades with what I would term some "Embellished Truths" and downright "Internet Myths"...as follows...and first?...I'll dis-spell...

*"The Embellished Truth of They Add Too Much Weight":*

To which I'd say...yep...they are indeed a few grains heavier than a super glue soaked tie-on however I might think a good string waxing where you've properly burnished the wax into the strands might be even more offensive weight wise...so does this really constitute....

"A Knocking Point For Brass Nocking Points?"










Next?...I'd like to address the claim that really throws the brass nocking points into the "Red-Headed Stepchild" back room...which would be the widely used claim that...

*"Brass Crimp-on Nocking Points Cut Up My Face!"*

Really?....are you sure of that?...cause I'm not and here's why....

Question: How can an object that doesn't protrude nearly as far as other objects surrounding it be blamed as..."The Offending Protrusion"?

My Observation?: It seems many minds equate metal corners with "Being Sharp"...(and no doubt they often times are)...but if they are sheathed or shrouded?...are they really "The Culprit" that violates our facial skin?...or....could it be those those thin plastic blades we know as...

*"Nock Indexers"* 










and wouldn't it make more sense that it's the hard objects that "STICK OUT THE FURTHEST" that are in fact "The Guilty Party" which is causing such facial damage?...inclusive of nock diameters that are actually a bit larger than the shaft diameters they are plugged into?....











but who looks at those things?....after all...they're just plastic right?...but wing one across your face at upwards of 200fps and find out just how sharp thin plastic can be. 

Unfortunately?...we love to immediately point our respective fingers at the metal stuff...while completely over-looking the long term precise durability they offer as they remain..."Wrongfully Accused"...how can I claim that?...easy.....

Despite the fact that many of the top competitors in our venue do in fact use (2) "TIE-ON NOCKING POINTS"?.....

we still see them regularly wearing band-aids on their noses.

Now it could be they just suffer continued string burn...where I'm now thinking...

*"Maybe their tabs are too thick and/or stiff for the poundage?"*

But my humble recommendation is as follows...

1. Spin your nocks 180degrees so the plastic fin/blade is pointed away from your face and not at it.

2. Whether you're shooting a tab or glove?....select ones that are as thin and supple as need be finger protection wise.

3. Nocks with diameters no larger than your shaft would be a great idea.

4. Then try a brass nocking point up top...you may be shocked at how much longer your bow remains in a perfect state of tune.

JMHO....YM(and opinions)MV...Be Blessed and Have a Great Day! Bill.


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## Traditionalist (Oct 28, 2012)

I have had nothing but problems with brass nocking points, I use a bcy serving now for tie on nock points. All the past gloves I have had (Howard hill, fred bear master glove, dura glove, bearpaw deluxe glove, and even a black widow tab) have all had a worn out spot right where my bottom brass nocking point was. Not to mention, when I was using a brass on top and the bottom, the top the slit was angled in towards my face, and would scrape the side of my face until I had a nice little cut on the corner of my lip.

Jinks, that last video you made what kept rattling on your bow? I couldn't quite figure out if it was the weight not the bottom of the riser, or the rest.


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## Homey88 (Dec 10, 2013)

Love your videos jinkster! Informative and you have a real passion for shooting and sharing knowledge!


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## 6bloodychunks (Oct 26, 2005)

Traditionalist said:


> Jinks, that last video you made what kept rattling on your bow? I couldn't quite figure out if it was the weight not the bottom of the riser, or the rest.



i remember him mentioning it was the inertia rest he was using.


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## Traditionalist (Oct 28, 2012)

6bloodychunks said:


> i remember him mentioning it was the inertia rest he was using.


Ah, okay that would make sense. That rattling would drive me nuts! Hahaha


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## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

Traditionalist said:


> Ah, okay that would make sense. That rattling would drive me nuts! Hahaha


For it's intended use?...That's just an added benefit...but the targets don't seem to mind at all how loud my bow is! :laugh:


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## Nuclear Longbow (Dec 13, 2007)

Nice write up Bill. Never had a problem with the brass nocking points...and I won't speak ill of the tie-ons, as they work for many folks. I've never been able to get the tie-ons to "stay put", and I've always attributed it to my lack of patience and gray matter. Maybe someday when life slows down I'll learn the proper skills, but for now "brass is best".


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## Joe Hohmann (Oct 24, 2013)

I use brass nocking points. I have not tied one on since I gave up drinking.


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## Traditionalist (Oct 28, 2012)

JINKSTER said:


> For it's intended use?...That's just an added benefit...but the targets don't seem to mind at all how loud my bow is! :laugh:


Hahaha..... Really nice rig though, what type of competition do you plan on using it for?


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## Norm Koger (Sep 23, 2014)

I figure a brass nock is going to be on that string for a while, so it's worth doing more than just crimping it on. I start by crimping a standard nock around the tail of a circular file about the same size as a string. Then I pound it circular around the file, grind it to a bead shape using a Dremel tool, polish it with a fine emery board, pry it off the file handle, attach it to the string in the usual way, mask the serving on either side with masking tape, polish again with a fine emery board until there are no rough edges, remove tape - and it all ends up like a little brass bead on the string. The process takes perhaps 10 minutes. Not only will this bead not mark my cordovan tab, but about half the metal was removed during the shaping - so the weight is negligible. And it's still easily adjustable, stays in place, etc. - All of the advantages of a brass nock and none of the disadvantages.

Forgive the photos, my phone's macro capability isn't that great in my kitchen lighting.


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## GEREP (May 6, 2003)

FWIW. I think in 40+ years of shooting a bow, I can only remember two strings that have failed and they have both been at the point of a crimp on nock. 

Was it coincidence? Did I crimp too tight? No clue, but I do know that since I started tying them on, I've not had another failure. 

Good enough reason for me. 

KPC


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## Norm Koger (Sep 23, 2014)

I tried tie on nocks too, and found I didn't much care for them. Still have them on a couple of bows. I suspect one of the reasons folks damage strings crimping on nocks is they're fighting against the original shape of the nock, trying to get it circular etc. Mine are crimped tight enough to stay in place, but can be moved screw wise along the serving when necessary.


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## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

Nuclear Longbow said:


> Nice write up Bill. Never had a problem with the brass nocking points...and I won't speak ill of the tie-ons, as they work for many folks. I've never been able to get the tie-ons to "stay put", and I've always attributed it to my lack of patience and gray matter. Maybe someday when life slows down I'll learn the proper skills, but for now "brass is best".


I still use two tie-ons on my Thunder Child...Nail-Knots out of 5-6 loops of BCY Sure Grip and when they were tuned just so?...they got a good soaking of Blue cap Gorilla Glue...but at 46#s shooting 11/32ndths cedars?....the TC is my "Heavy Hunter"...(if my legs & brain ever get well enough to go hunting again)...but the DAS Elite & Gillo?...they get brass up top with tie-ons down below as they get shot often and a lot and it's been my experience that even with the super glue?...the tie-ons soften, yield and eventually fray and need replaced...point being?...I use both and love both but in their respective places...and low poundage target rigs that get shot a lot and often?....isn't the place for (2) tie-ons...imho.  



Joe Hohmann said:


> I use brass nocking points. I have not tied one on since I gave up drinking.


Good man! 



Traditionalist said:


> Hahaha..... Really nice rig though, what type of competition do you plan on using it for?


If time ever allows?....I'm hoping to get back into doing some NFAA field shooting.



Norm Koger said:


> I figure a brass nock is going to be on that string for a while, so it's worth doing more than just crimping it on. I start by crimping a standard nock around the tail of a circular file about the same size as a string. Then I pound it circular around the file, grind it to a bead shape using a Dremel tool, polish it with a fine emery board, pry it off the file handle, attach it to the string in the usual way, mask the serving on either side with masking tape, polish again with a fine emery board until there are no rough edges, remove tape - and it all ends up like a little brass bead on the string. The process takes perhaps 10 minutes. Not only will this bead not mark my cordovan tab, but about half the metal was removed during the shaping - so the weight is negligible. And it's still easily adjustable, stays in place, etc. - All of the advantages of a brass nock and none of the disadvantages.
> 
> Forgive the photos, my phone's macro capability isn't that great in my kitchen lighting.
> View attachment 3227530
> View attachment 3227522


Nice Norm!...Very Nice and?....



Norm Koger said:


> I tried tie on nocks too, and found I didn't much care for them. Still have them on a couple of bows. I suspect one of the reasons folks damage strings crimping on nocks is they're fighting against the original shape of the nock, trying to get it circular etc. Mine are crimped tight enough to stay in place, but can be moved screw wise along the serving when necessary.


Good stuff man!...Thanks for sharing...you are obviously well schooled in all things nocking points and I suspect quite a bit more!


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## SteveB (Dec 18, 2003)

Norm Koger said:


> I figure a brass nock is going to be on that string for a while, so it's worth doing more than just crimping it on. I start by crimping a standard nock around the tail of a circular file about the same size as a string. Then I pound it circular around the file, grind it to a bead shape using a Dremel tool, polish it with a fine emery board, pry it off the file handle, attach it to the string in the usual way, mask the serving on either side with masking tape, polish again with a fine emery board until there are no rough edges, remove tape - and it all ends up like a little brass bead on the string. The process takes perhaps 10 minutes. Not only will this bead not mark my cordovan tab, but about half the metal was removed during the shaping - so the weight is negligible. And it's still easily adjustable, stays in place, etc. - All of the advantages of a brass nock and none of the disadvantages.
> 
> Forgive the photos, my phone's macro capability isn't that great in my kitchen lighting.
> View attachment 3227530
> View attachment 3227522


I do the same thing.
Except I pull one out of the bag, crimp it on and go shoot.:wink:


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## Norm Koger (Sep 23, 2014)

Given the obvious wear on the serving below the nock point in the photos, I suspect it's apparent that I shoot a bit too 

I do love this stuff.


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## Easykeeper (Jan 2, 2003)

I use brass nock points to get a quick tune, then switch to tied in top and bottom. Shooting split finger I get wear on my tab from brass, none from tied in nock points. I've never had a tied in nock point move and for me they generally last the life of the string.

If I was shooting three under I might go with brass on top but would still used tied in on the bottom.


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## Myth Buster (Mar 27, 2015)

*"The Embellished Truth of They Add Too Much Weight":

To which I'd say...yep...they are indeed a few grains heavier than a super glue soaked tie-on however I might think a good string waxing where you've properly burnished the wax into the strands might be even more offensive weight wise...so does this really constitute....*


Tell ya what, I'll let you figure out your own way of measuring forward string travel past brace height on the shot. Once you have that figured out how to accurately measure the difference between 6 grains of weight on the string vs maybe 1gr of string tied on points, then report back. 
(Hint: it helps if you have a slow motion camera for this but not necessary) OH! and please use only one arrow, preferably the same one for the test.
Good luck.


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## marcelxl (Dec 5, 2010)

I accidentally used science to ascertain what nock locators works best for me and my big nose.

As many do I used brass to get tuned up all lovely and nice and kept them on lazily beyond the tuning. Thing is I was hitting my nose and lip and often causing bleeding and profanity.

Switch to tie ons and the impacts are rare & so slight I don't feel them and zero blood.

experiment over quickly and I stayed out shooting!

Never had a tie-on move, fail or damage a string and they don't hurt my finger protection (or nose) and if it ain't broke…….


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## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

I'm getting a kick out of how many folks claim they damaged many strings with brass crimp-ons yet so many claim they never damaged a string with tie-ons....and why do I find that odd?...because.....

I was standing right there when the pro at the LBS tied a nock on my string and when he melted the tag ends and pushed the hot ball of molten string into the knot?.....POP!...it melted and blew my center serving which immediately unraveled.

He had it re-served in a few minutes but still...I've yet to hear anyone mention the same happening to them in these posts of mine....odd I would think...I speak of the deep seated hatred of the anti-brass-nockingpoint crowd. :laugh:


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## ryebow (Aug 8, 2013)

I use a little slide on rubber button. It makes it very easy to make micro adjustments. When I finally decide where it works best I put teeny dab of Fletch-Tite top and bottom and it stays put. Using the nock remover tool works less than ideally for me and have roughed up a serving once or twice.


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## GBUSA (Jun 6, 2013)

JINKSTER said:


> I'm getting a kick out of how many folks claim they damaged many strings with brass crimp-ons yet so many claim they never damaged a string with tie-ons....and why do I find that odd?...because.....
> 
> I was standing right there when the pro at the LBS tied a nock on my string and when he melted the tag ends and pushed the hot ball of molten string into the knot?.....POP!...it melted and blew my center serving which immediately unraveled.
> 
> He had it re-served in a few minutes but still...I've yet to hear anyone mention the same happening to them in these posts of mine....odd I would think...I speak of the deep seated hatred of the anti-brass-nockingpoint crowd. :laugh:



I guess if you use a blow torch, or fall asleep with the lighter in your hand.
I've only ever heard of this happening to compound strings from newbie bow techs improperly installing D loops.

I've burned plenty of tag ends over the years and never once had any damage to any part of a string or serving.


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## marcelxl (Dec 5, 2010)

I don't think there is deep seated hatred for anything. Just preference.

It just a teeny weeny thing at the end of the day and if brass ones did not make a mess of my beak and my tab it would not have got any brain power. More accomplished & experienced shots than I use brass and some of the elite shooters (oly recurve) I met back in the UK used tie ons. Preference, perhaps convenience and in my case less frustrating and painful


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## Norm Koger (Sep 23, 2014)

I shoot split finger, and wear on a nice, shiny new cordovan tab a while back is what got me started modifying my brass nocks. I never experienced scratches on my face, but judging from what quick and dirty crimped on nocks were doing to that tab I can see how it could happen. Getting rid of the edges really does eliminate the nock as a source of wear or scratches. No sign of wear now.

Weight may be a legitimate issue, though a very small one. I've done a lot of chronographing over the last three years or so, and I've been surprised at how little difference arrow weight makes to speed. Not at all what I expected. For several bows shooting in the 170-200 fps range, and arrows with weights ranging from 417 to 504g, my average measured weight vs. velocity effect is about 0.17fps / grain. If brass nocks are about 6 grains (mine are probably closer to 4), that suggests the speed difference between having a brass nock vs. no nock at all is on the order of 1fps.

Seems to me the brass vs. tie-on question is really just a matter of personal preference.


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## marcelxl (Dec 5, 2010)

Norm Koger said:


> Weight may be a legitimate issue, though a very small one. I've done a lot of chronographing over the last three years or so, and I've been surprised at how little difference arrow weight makes to speed. Not at all what I expected. For several bows shooting in the 170-200 fps range, and arrows with weights ranging from 417 to 504g, my average measured weight vs. velocity effect is about 0.17fps / grain. If brass nocks are about 6 grains (mine are probably closer to 4), that suggests the speed difference between having a brass nock vs. no nock at all is on the order of 1fps.
> 
> Seems to me the brass vs. tie-on question is really just a matter of personal preference.


Seriously, who would even know? How many archers out there, regardless of equipment would even notice……. can there be any "trad" archers regardless of your credentials who could say with 100% honesty that it makes an iota of a difference once an arrow has left the bow? Even if there is a minuscule fps difference? 

Confidence in something, maybe, but performance, at least in this game I seriously doubt.


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## Norm Koger (Sep 23, 2014)

I'm inclined to agree that the speed difference is minuscule. It would seem to be real; but for me at least, I get more than 1fps variation from shot to shot when chronographing. Annoying  I do care about speed. All of the bows around here that can handle it have low stretch strings on them, because 10-15fps _is_ noticeable. <1fps though, not so much.


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## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

marcelxl said:


> Seriously, who would even know? How many archers out there, regardless of equipment would even notice……. can there be any "trad" archers regardless of your credentials who could say with 100% honesty that it makes an iota of a difference once an arrow has left the bow? Even if there is a minuscule fps difference?
> 
> Confidence in something, maybe, but performance, at least in this game I seriously doubt.


This is true...but I think we often discount the importance of the fact that nocking points are the primary controller of how and where our limbs stored energy is transmitted through the string and into the arrow....and hopefully in a very consistent fashion.

For me?...tie-ons work just fine on bows I don't intend on shooting much further than 30yds...but for the longer range stuff?...I want something a bit more durable and precise than a knot that changes shape (and sometimes position) as it's shot.


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## GEREP (May 6, 2003)

JINKSTER said:


> For me?...tie-ons work just fine on bows I don't intend on shooting much further than 30yds...but for the longer range stuff?...I want something a bit more durable and precise than a knot that changes shape (and sometimes position) as it's shot.



Come on JINKS, you're kidding, right?

KPC


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## Norm Koger (Sep 23, 2014)

Except for an aesthetic preference otherwise, the only real issue I have with tie-on points is the common recommendation to use superglue to set them. Unless a thick formulation is used, it is quite possible that the glue will penetrate knot and serving to the string itself. Garden variety superglue wicks like lightning. That makes tie-ons probably as likely to damage the string as brass. Plain old white glue would most likely do just as well without the potential to damage the string.


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## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

Norm Koger said:


> Except for an aesthetic preference otherwise, the only real issue I have with tie-on points is the common recommendation to use superglue to set them. Unless a thick formulation is used, it is quite possible that the glue will penetrate knot and serving to the string itself. Garden variety superglue wicks like lightning. That makes tie-ons probably as likely to damage the string as brass. Plain old white glue would most likely do just as well without the potential to damage the string.


Good point Norm! :thumbs_up

I've been using the Blue Cap Gorilla Super Glue...it seems thicker in nature....sort of like somewhere between the watery super glues and fletch-tite and as a result?...doesn't "wick-in" nearly as quick or as deeply as common super glues....maybe in part because I keep the stuff in the fridge?...but it also has a flexing agent in it...sort of rubberized super glue....works great on my tie-ons.


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## JParanee (Oct 13, 2009)

Why are you gluing them ?


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## BarneySlayer (Feb 28, 2009)

JINKSTER said:


> This is true...but I think we often discount the importance of the fact that nocking points are the primary controller of how and where our limbs stored energy is transmitted through the string and into the arrow....and hopefully in a very consistent fashion.
> 
> For me?...tie-ons work just fine on bows I don't intend on shooting much further than 30yds...but for the longer range stuff?...I want something a bit more durable and precise than a knot that changes shape (and sometimes position) as it's shot.


don't most olympic style archers use exclusively tie on knocks?

I use a brass nock above, just because it is easy to locate and differentiate, and because I like it, and so far as I can tell, it works fine. that's all the justification I need.

I use a tie on nail knot below. seems to work fine too, and it is nice and soft so that I don't have too give it too much play when nocking thhe arrow, and when the string comes back, the angle doesn't crush the nock, or move thhe bottom nock set down.

seems to work fine.

i guess the difference in weight could mean that I could have a few more grains on the arrow, or maybe just a little faster arrow, but I don't care enough about it to change


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## Norm Koger (Sep 23, 2014)

JParanee said:


> Why are you gluing them ?


If you look online, you'll find that the top hits for tie-on nocks refer to setting with super glue. Not sure why, but it's what I found when I experimented with tie-ons last year.


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## JParanee (Oct 13, 2009)

Norm Koger said:


> If you look online, you'll find that the top hits for tie-on nocks refer to setting with super glue. Not sure why, but it's what I found when I experimented with tie-ons last year.


Thanks 

I know people do it but if you tie a good knot I don't think it's necessary 

I tie on all my knots and I've never glued them 

If my finger tab and I shoot three under moves them they are not tight enough


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## Easykeeper (Jan 2, 2003)

JParanee said:


> Thanks
> 
> I know people do it but if you tie a good knot I don't think it's necessary
> 
> ...


Same here. I've never used glue either. If I ever want to remove the tied in nock points, for whatever reason, the last thing I want is to have to worry about them being glued to the serving. Besides, I've never needed glue to keep them from moving.


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## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)




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## barebow52 (Nov 7, 2007)

Brass for me. Been using them for 30 yrs. no complaints


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## JINKSTER (Mar 19, 2011)

Easykeeper said:


> Same here. I've never used glue either. If I ever want to remove the tied in nock points, for whatever reason, the last thing I want is to have to worry about them being glued to the serving. Besides, I've never needed glue to keep them from moving.


Yeah....odd thing is?...folks tend to assume things real quick like...while my DAS Elite and Gillo both have brass up top and tie-ons below?...neither of those are glued...why?...simple...the lower tie=ons are just for support and should they get taper shaped (and loose fitting) up top where they meet the nock?...I just twist them upwards a turn or so to get things snugged back up too the stationary and non-shape-changing brass crimp on...however....on the Thunderchild?....I'm running (2) tie-ons and when I got my cedars tuned and flying just so?...that's when I coated those tie-ons with blue cap gorilla glue....and not because they move...they don't and are plenty tight...nearly difficult to twist with finger pressure alone....but the coating of glue is there mainly to "Stabilize Their Shape"...so the ends don't get all coned and tapered and eventually?...frayed....the glue helps them retain their shape and increase durability.

Most times?...many of us do things differently....and sometimes?....for very different reasons...and some?....might even have some solid merit.


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## Norm Koger (Sep 23, 2014)

...and in case anyone was wondering, a rounded, polished brass nock point weighs in at about 4.2 grains, or less than 1% addition to weight for the arrows I generally shoot. So no measurable effect on arrow speeds. Just weighed one of my modified points after grinding it to shape.


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