# Does Braden Gellenthien Fire His Hinge With His Pinky?



## nele22

Yup. Definitely activated by the pinky


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## woodsman78

Doing what he has always done use's his pinkie to bring the release to the clicker and then finish's with full BT.


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## shawn_in_MA

He DOES NOT fire his release with his pinky. There is barely any pressure on his release from his pinky at all. About 2 years ago he shot his release with a ton of travel. The release really never stopped moving. Then he switched to a real hot release where his thumb stayed on the peg and there was barely any movement. Right now he is keeping his thumb on the peg but there is more movement in the release. Most of the movement comes from a combination of relaxing tension on the thumb peg and adding pressure with his 2nd and 3rd fingers


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## swwishooter

Did anyone else notice that it appears that Mike Schloesser is flinching and punching his release during the 20 minute mark? As a person that has gone through TP, I would hate for a world class archer to develop this.


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## aread

swwishooter said:


> Did anyone else notice that it appears that Mike Schloesser is flinching and punching his release during the 20 minute mark? As a person that has gone through TP, I would hate for a world class archer to develop this.


Yeah, I noticed that. I'm sure it's frustrating for him. But he's still shooting a lot better than me.


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## EPLC

Pinky or not that new Mathews is holding really well for him...


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## RCR_III

From watching the video, and hearing him talk about his shot in the past, I'd say he uses a combination of pulling and finger manipulation just like most hinge users on his level do. He's just unique with his four finger hinge.


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## RCR_III

montigre said:


> And the point of this thread is?????


To make you post derogatory remarks? 

While I agree it doesn't fit the "mold" for I&A the way it was presented possibly. It could lead to something that does. Give it time. Or, click the triangled "!" in the lower left hand corner so that it alerts Mahly, then he can decide how to direct. 

Without being condescending and pushing people away. 

And no, I don't want to hear your thick skin reply, again. Have some thicker skin ;-)


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## Ned250

swwishooter said:


> Did anyone else notice that it appears that Mike Schloesser is flinching and punching his release during the 20 minute mark? As a person that has gone through TP, I would hate for a world class archer to develop this.


I just saw that - WOW.

It's a great reminder that even the top level pros are still human and subject to pressure. 

It is very interesting watching Braden's new method of firing his hinge. There were some shots where it went off right when he was setting the pinky pressure. You can see that he's not initiating that pressure until he's settled in on the target, which tells me that's not a rare occurrence. 

Interesting stuff.


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## RCR_III

swwishooter said:


> Did anyone else notice that it appears that Mike Schloesser is flinching and punching his release during the 20 minute mark? As a person that has gone through TP, I would hate for a world class archer to develop this.


Yea, that was a good flinch too. I was shocked to see it as close to center as it was. 

Crazy thing is that Braden has bounced around to a thumb release at times and his last bout with it gave him bad tp too and he's since gone back to his hinge.


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## markdenis

I have watched Braden shoot in many tournaments. He uses whichever release he has the most confidence in to get the job done at any given time...thumb, hinge or forefinger. He is a great shooter.

Nice win Braden.....well done!


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## shawn_in_MA

Also, there is no clicker on his release.


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## cbrunson

How many of you know him, or have shot with him recently? I know Shawn_in_MA has. (I was there for one )

Not to start a pissing match, but there seems to be a lot of hearsay. Unless of coarse you shoot with him. What you see in these videos shows very little as to what is really going on at the shot. I know that from just watching videos I've taken of myself. A lot of movement happens before the shot is there. That moment where everything comes into place is very short.


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## markdenis

cbrunson said:


> How many of you know him, or have shot with him recently? I know Shawn_in_MA has. (I was there for one )
> 
> Not to start a pissing match, but there seems to be a lot of hearsay. Unless of coarse you shoot with him. What you see in these videos shows very little as to what is really going on at the shot. I know that from just watching videos I've taken of myself. A lot of movement happens before the shot is there. That moment where everything comes into place is very short.


I agree....watching a hinge release move before firing tells nothing about what is going on within the archer's feelings. It tells nothing about how the archer made it fire.


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## Reverend

montigre said:


> And the point of this thread is?????


Gail the point is to create mass confusion, bitter infighting, and senseless arguing :sunglasses:
Not really... But couldn't resist.
Actually it was posted to bring up the discussion on the many ways of successfully firing a hinge...


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## shawn_in_MA

cbrunson said:


> What you see in these videos shows very little as to what is really going on at the shot. I know that from just watching videos I've taken of myself. A lot of movement happens before the shot is there. That moment where everything comes into place is very short.


Exactly!


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## swwishooter

RCR_III said:


> Yea, that was a good flinch too. I was shocked to see it as close to center as it was.
> 
> Crazy thing is that Braden has bounced around to a thumb release at times and his last bout with it gave him bad tp too and he's since gone back to his hinge.


Then you see some where he was clearly punching it, and the arrow would of missed the 10 ring on a regular vegas target. I feel bad for the guy honestly!


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## swwishooter

Ned250 said:


> I just saw that - WOW.
> 
> It's a great reminder that even the top level pros are still human and subject to pressure.
> 
> It is very interesting watching Braden's new method of firing his hinge. There were some shots where it went off right when he was setting the pinky pressure. You can see that he's not initiating that pressure until he's settled in on the target, which tells me that's not a rare occurrence.
> 
> Interesting stuff.


That is true about Mike, I am guessing that shot clock does not help one bit.


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## SonnyThomas

Reverend said:


> Gail the point is to create mass confusion, bitter infighting, and senseless arguing :sunglasses:
> Not really... But couldn't resist.
> Actually it was posted to bring up the discussion on the many ways of successfully firing a hinge...


I can see Gail's point. We've discussed hinges in every conceivable manner...with mud slinging...with banning...

Unless Braden tells of his manner, in detail, with a hinge we are doing nothing but second guessing and right back to feuding.

Want to find out if something works, try it.....


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## vito9999

Simple answer, he learned the pinky fire from reading AT.


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## nochance

cbrunson said:


> How many of you know him, or have shot with him recently? I know Shawn_in_MA has. (I was there for one )
> 
> Not to start a pissing match, but there seems to be a lot of hearsay. Unless of coarse you shoot with him. What you see in these videos shows very little as to what is really going on at the shot. I know that from just watching videos I've taken of myself. A lot of movement happens before the shot is there. That moment where everything comes into place is very short.


I have shot next to him before (practice round at a shop), a couple years ago, don't remember if his release clicked or not or how much he used each of his fingers. What i do remember is that after he nailed the x( he shot 300 30 that round) he would whisper a subtle\quiet "yesssss!" a lttle mental reinforcement.


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## RCR_III

nochance said:


> I have shot next to him before (practice round at a shop), a couple years ago, don't remember if his release clicked or not or how much he used each of his fingers. What i do remember is that after he nailed the x( he shot 300 30 that round) he would whisper a subtle\quiet "yesssss!" a lttle mental reinforcement.


I do love Braden's passion. I think it gets the best of him sometimes, but I always like watching him shoot.


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## northshoremb

The announcer stated that Braden was using a hinge release so your answer is NO he isn't firing with his pinky. I believe he uses his pinky as more leverage to rotate the hinge. So guess your 50% right other then there is no trigger

Sent from my SM-G900W8 using Tapatalk


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## cbrunson

nochance said:


> I have shot next to him before (practice round at a shop), a couple years ago, don't remember if his release clicked or not or how much he used each of his fingers. What i do remember is that after he nailed the x( he shot 300 30 that round) he would whisper a subtle\quiet "yesssss!" a lttle mental reinforcement.


Pretty cool. I still do that for every Vegas 300 game I shoot. I've been close with a 29x, but I still don't know the feeling of shooting that last arrow for a 300-30x. It will be intense, even if it's just in practice.


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## Padgett

I watched Braden shoot a good 15 minutes on the practice line in Iowa along with Wilfer and Reo and many other top shooters, I chose not to talk to any of them and just enjoy my shooting and the chance to watch the best america has to offer and there were 18 60x's shot in iowa which to me is unreal to have that many pro shooters and amateur shooters at a medium level tournament accomplish. 

What I took away is that they do the exact same thing every time every shot, nothing more or less. These guys rattled off 60x rounds like it was no big deal and just another day on the range.

As far as what I see in the Nimes video is that Jesse was in the 3rd place championship and had only missed one of the little x's for his entire weekend to get there so I am not sure what Braden or Mike did to get to the Gold medal match but it must have been one miss or less. That means that they collectively shot 60 arrows apiece between 4 guys which is 240 shots of qualifying and only missed 3 or so x's total as a group. That is insane.

NOW HERE IS MY TAKE: I think that for most of the top level pro shooters they function at 100% accuracy for almost 100% of the time and not until they get to the gold medal match or the last few shots of the second day do they feel any different than being home. The perfect example is the shoot downs for final placing, the third place match in vegas last year that took place at the same time Levi and Wilfer shot their arrows for 1st place and the guys that had already missed shot for third and they all shot awesome shots while levi and wilfer struggled to make the last three shots leave their bow and they hit poorly. So basically Levi even after winning multiple championships hit his wall of comfort level at time. Up until then he was good to go.


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## RCR_III

I was thinking about this, this morning. I watched a video Jesse has shooting at home and then the one in his bronze medal match in Nimes. His shot timing is roughly the exact same. Meaning he's not freezing or hanging up. It's just business as normal. 

The top pros, and even the higher level shooters on here, all shoot with roughly the same shot timing shot after shot. It's just dealing with the pressures and keeping that shot timing the same that the best of the best are capable of. Their tolerances for the pressure are higher.


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## shawn_in_MA

Padgett said:


> As far as what I see in the Nimes video is that Jesse was in the 3rd place championship and had only missed one of the little x's for his entire weekend to get there so I am not sure what Braden or Mike did to get to the Gold medal match but it must have been one miss or less. That means that they collectively shot 60 arrows apiece between 4 guys which is 240 shots of qualifying and only missed 3 or so x's total as a group. That is insane.


Mike beat Jesse in the semi finals - which sent Jesse to the Bronze medal match and Mike to the Gold medal match.
http://www.ianseo.net/TourData/2016/1276/IBCM.php


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## cbrunson

Padgett said:


> I watched Braden shoot a good 15 minutes on the practice line in Iowa along with Wilfer and Reo and many other top shooters, I chose not to talk to any of them and just enjoy my shooting and the chance to watch the best america has to offer and there were 18 60x's shot in iowa which to me is unreal to have that many pro shooters and amateur shooters at a medium level tournament accomplish.
> 
> What I took away is that they do the exact same thing every time every shot, nothing more or less. These guys rattled off 60x rounds like it was no big deal and just another day on the range.
> 
> As far as what I see in the Nimes video is that Jesse was in the 3rd place championship and had only missed one of the little x's for his entire weekend to get there so I am not sure what Braden or Mike did to get to the Gold medal match but it must have been one miss or less. That means that they collectively shot 60 arrows apiece between 4 guys which is 240 shots of qualifying and only missed 3 or so x's total as a group. That is insane.
> 
> NOW HERE IS MY TAKE: I think that for most of the top level pro shooters they function at 100% accuracy for almost 100% of the time and not until they get to the gold medal match or the last few shots of the second day do they feel any different than being home. The perfect example is the shoot downs for final placing, the third place match in vegas last year that took place at the same time Levi and Wilfer shot their arrows for 1st place and the guys that had already missed shot for third and they all shot awesome shots while levi and wilfer struggled to make the last three shots leave their bow and they hit poorly. So basically Levi even after winning multiple championships hit his wall of comfort level at time. Up until then he was good to go.


Jesse shot 599 in the qualifier. He missed a few in the matches. Not many though.


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## cbrunson

RCR_III said:


> I was thinking about this, this morning. I watched a video Jesse has shooting at home and then the one in his bronze medal match in Nimes. His shot timing is roughly the exact same. Meaning he's not freezing or hanging up. It's just business as normal.
> 
> The top pros, and even the higher level shooters on here, all shoot with roughly the same shot timing shot after shot. It's just dealing with the pressures and keeping that shot timing the same that the best of the best are capable of. Their tolerances for the pressure are higher.


In all of the things that are coming together in those final moments before the shot breaks, the timing is the last thing anyone should be concerned with.


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## nestly

Padgett said:


> As far as what I see in the Nimes video is that Jesse was in the 3rd place championship and had only missed one of the little x's for his entire weekend to get there so I am not sure what Braden or Mike did to get to the Gold medal match but it must have been one miss or less. That means that they collectively shot 60 arrows apiece between 4 guys which is 240 shots of qualifying and only missed 3 or so x's total as a group. That is insane.


They are good, but not quite that good.  After qualification, the top 32 go into 15 arrow head to head elimination rounds where it doesn't matter how many points they drop as long as they drop fewer than the guy they're shooting against.
Jesse shot 599/600 in qualification, followed by 149/150, 150/150, 148/150, *146*/150, 148/150 So he shot a total of 175 arrows and only 10 were not baby 10's. The round that cost him was the semi where he shot 146 against Mike's 149 which knocked him out of Gold medal contention even though he would have won against either Braden or Mike had he been in the Gold match.

Overall, Braden dropped 9 during the competition, Mike 16, Jesse 10, and Sergio 18


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## RCR_III

cbrunson said:


> In all of the things that are coming together in those final moments before the shot breaks, the timing is the last thing anyone should be concerned with.


Shot timing is the rhythm and flow you have. The consistency. When it's not the same then something is different. 

You're right in that there's many things going on and they're important and needing to work through them is also very important. But the foundation to your shot's consistency can be traced to the timing it has. 

I've heard several pro archers talk about shot timing and differences in it, or when it's not different and things just flow. 

If you watch a video of a shooter shooting during lower and higher pressure matches and see his timing go longer during higher pressure situations, you typically begin to see them miss and not be as perfect. 

Yes, you need to find the root cause of that miss and what happened. But an indicator that something is off, is the shot timing. No human can float on target perfectly for long period of times. That's why they have a shot window. That's where timing comes in.


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## cbrunson

RCR_III said:


> Shot timing is the rhythm and flow you have. The consistency. When it's not the same then something is different.
> 
> You're right in that there's many things going on and they're important and needing to work through them is also very important. But the foundation to your shot's consistency can be traced to the timing it has.
> 
> I've heard several pro archers talk about shot timing and differences in it, or when it's not different and things just flow.
> 
> If you watch a video of a shooter shooting during lower and higher pressure matches and see his timing go longer during higher pressure situations, you typically begin to see them miss and not be as perfect.
> 
> Yes, you need to find the root cause of that miss and what happened. But an indicator that something is off, is the shot timing. No human can float on target perfectly for long period of times. That's why they have a shot window. That's where timing comes in.


With all due respect, I encourage you to put the video camera down and go put some time in on the line with these guys instead of guessing what they do based on what you see on videos.


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## RCR_III

cbrunson said:


> With all due respect, I encourage you to put the video camera down and go put some time in on the line with these guys instead of guessing what they do based on what you see on videos.


With respect, do your research on the topic. If I've heard more than one pro archer speak on it, surely you can find the same videos and podcasts to watch/ listen to as well. 

I get you shoot in the same range as Reo and family and other locals, but they aren't the entire populous of pro archers.


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## Reverend

vito9999 said:


> Simple answer, he learned the pinky fire from reading AT.


Made me spit up my coffee. Good one! Quite possibly the post of the day!


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## dmacey

SonnyThomas said:


> I can see Gail's point. We've discussed hinges in every conceivable manner...with mud slinging...with banning...
> 
> Unless Braden tells of his manner, in detail, with a hinge we are doing nothing but second guessing and right back to feuding.
> 
> Want to find out if something works, try it.....


Well I dunno. For me, the "OMG! the n00bs are fouling I-A again! Where's the bug spray, bug spray!" thread-cop posts are getting old. This is an opportunity for some of the folks who've actually shot with BG and maybe even personally discussed his techniques to post what they learned. I'd muchly prefer to read that than "go to General Discussion, noob!" and no I've never shot with BG but here's how I shoot 30x games every week at league posts over and over again.. 

Already a couple of folks have chimed in who've actually watched these folks shoot in person (Padgett for example).... And Sonny I think you've shot with some luminaries also.....

DM


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## RCR_III

cbrunson said:


> With all due respect, I encourage you to put the video camera down and go put some time in on the line with these guys instead of guessing what they do based on what you see on videos.


Quick google search and this was the first to pop up. Written by George Tekmitchov. 

http://www.eastonarchery.com/blog/shot-execution-under-pressure2

All about changes in shot timing and rhythm.


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## cbrunson

RCR_III said:


> With respect, do your research on the topic. If I've heard more than one pro archer speak on it, surely you can find the same videos and podcasts to watch/ listen to as well.
> 
> I get you shoot in the same range as Reo and family and other locals, but they aren't the entire populous of pro archers.


Research? Lol. How about some shooting?

The problem with the shot timing issue that even you should recognize with your ambitions to acquire an audience (with or without profiting from it), is that a plethora of beginners out there are going to get hung up on whether or not they are getting the shot to fire within some arbitrary window that you or someone else said is important, when in fact the basic mechanics of good form and execution are the only things they should be concerned with. It has little to do with knowing or shooting with anyone. It comes from crossing those barriers on your own. 

This whole concept of getting in a rhythm and let shots just happen is nonsense. If you want to do your homework and have a reputable blog to give higher level advice, you should really put a little more into it than just repeating what you heard someone else say.


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## Padgett

Cbrunson, I totally agree with what you just said but here is the problem. For the last two years I could rattle off shots and feel exactly the same just like you mentioned and my focus was on those final moments just before the shot breaks. 

But

This year I have been brought back to earth and when I step up to the line the moment I start to draw and come to anchor the shot feels different almost every trip to the line and I have been reminded where so many of our shooters are coming from. Each week that goes by I can feel my progress and am getting more and more ends where I feel the same but for guys that have never experienced what it feels like to execute 60 shots in a row or 30 shots or 10 shots in a row they don't understand. 

Right now I am training and attending leagues and tournaments just waiting for the weeks to go by and things to return to normal where I can rattle off a few hundred shot executions that all feel the same so that I can focus on those last couple moments right before it breaks. For me to have that kind of confidence that it will return is not a blind faith thing because I have been there before but for people who have never been there it is totally blind faith that they put in our words that it is possible.


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## RCR_III

cbrunson said:


> Research? Lol. How about some shooting?
> 
> The problem with the shot timing issue that even you should recognize with your ambitions to acquire an audience (with or without profiting from it), is that a plethora of beginners out there are going to get hung up on whether or not they are getting the shot to fire within some arbitrary window that you or someone else said is important, when in fact the basic mechanics of good form and execution are the only things they should be concerned with. It has little to do with knowing or shooting with anyone. It comes from crossing those barriers on your own.
> 
> This whole concept of getting in a rhythm and let shots just happen is nonsense. If you want to do your homework and have a reputable blog to give higher level advice, you should really put a little more into it than just repeating what you heard someone else say.


You mention beginners and I can't help but point out the name above on the sub forum. I&A ;-) just figured the satire from that along with earlier posts throughout this thread would be fun. 

Anywho. My information I put out and its relevance based on your opinion is only that. Your opinion. I'll listen to it. Will I stop from placing what I want to out, no. Will I ever put anything I believe will be detrimental to another archer? Absolutely not. 

And as I posted with the link where Techmitchov explains shot timing, far be it from me to go against something of his caliber writes. And he's not the only one to do so. 

And in regards to research versus shooting. Ample time in each is needed. Once someone believes they know it all and stop looking for information, they plateau. And that doesn't do anyone any justice.


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## Padgett

By the way, thanks so much for putting out the scores for the matches after qualification. I only heard the comment of one x missed in qualifications and it was really cool to see the numbers.


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## dmacey

RCR_III said:


> And in regards to research versus shooting. Ample time in each is needed. Once someone believes they know it all and stop looking for information, they plateau. And that doesn't do anyone any justice.


IMO, the most I-A post in this thread. Once there's nothing more to learn, your shooting career is over (IMO)...

DM


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## cbrunson

RCR_III said:


> You mention beginners and I can't help but point out the name above on the sub forum. I&A ;-) just figured the satire from that along with earlier posts throughout this thread would be fun.
> 
> Anywho. My information I put out and its relevance based on your opinion is only that. Your opinion. I'll listen to it. Will I stop from placing what I want to out, no. Will I ever put anything I believe will be detrimental to another archer? Absolutely not.
> 
> And as I posted with the link where Techmitchov explains shot timing, far be it from me to go against something of his caliber writes. And he's not the only one to do so.
> 
> And in regards to research versus shooting. Ample time in each is needed. Once someone believes they know it all and stop looking for information, they plateau. And that doesn't do anyone any justice.


Of course everyone is entitled to their opinions. As much as you feel that restating something someone else said is important, I have the feeling that performance based advice is ideal. Not the issue here though.

Every year I have progressed both in practice and at competition with the same mindset. There are three elements to a good shot. A smooth execution that doesn't affect the front end, holding the dot in the middle, and your discipline to get the two to happen together, every time. Everything else is mental garbage.

I have yet to see any actual evidence of anyone who claims to mindlessly flog at the bail produce countless Xs. In fact a few notables here have asked for some insight toward their shot process as of late.


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## montigre

There is always something to learn, but as one's skills improve, it behooves them to seek that knowledge from people who are at least as knowledgable or better yet more so than themselves. This prevents them from endlessly spinning their wheels for months or years while they try to figure out why their "game" is suddenlt suffering.

Learning something from someone who has read about a technique in a book/online or heard Pro X, Y, or Z mention it in a brief pod cast is vastly different than being out there and learning it from the source on their own. Nothing can really surplant that type of REAL WORLD exposure when hoping to improves one's competitive archery experience.


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## bgviii

I started a thread last week about hinge speed and that led into some timing discussion and thoughts that were as interesting as they were helpful. One of the things i've noticed about the Tekmitchov article above is that he suggests looking at the pin instead of the X. I have found this to be a great way to alleviate pressure and recently only discovered this to help stop my hinge from hanging up. Why am I mentioning this? Because in every opinion, some person might find something useful and interesting, if not applicable, to their archery experience. I love reading your banter and at the very least it's more entertaining the usual sports comments on other sites. So from here, i say let 'er rip people!


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## RCR_III

cbrunson said:


> Of course everyone is entitled to their opinions. As much as you feel that restating something someone else said is important, I have the feeling that performance based advice is ideal. Not the issue here though.
> 
> Every year I have progressed both in practice and at competition with the same mindset. There are three elements to a good shot. A smooth execution that doesn't affect the front end, holding the dot in the middle, and your discipline to get the two to happen together, every time. Everything else is mental garbage.
> 
> I have yet to see any actual evidence of anyone who claims to mindlessly flog at the bail produce countless Xs. In fact a few notables here have asked for some insight toward their shot process as of late.


Finally something good to go off of here. 

Your three points you focus on. Agree with you whole heartedly! Just me being who I am, I want to know the why's and how's. I break things apart to see how they work. 

I want to find something there to gain on. Fix. Make better. Or take away. So I look more in depth. But the concept, yes!


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## SonnyThomas

dmacey said:


> Well I dunno. For me, the "OMG! the n00bs are fouling I-A again! Where's the bug spray, bug spray!" thread-cop posts are getting old. This is an opportunity for some of the folks who've actually shot with BG and maybe even personally discussed his techniques to post what they learned. I'd muchly prefer to read that than "go to General Discussion, noob!" and no I've never shot with BG but here's how I shoot 30x games every week at league posts over and over again..
> 
> Already a couple of folks have chimed in who've actually watched these folks shoot in person (Padgett for example).... And Sonny I think you've shot with some luminaries also.....
> 
> DM


Luminary; a person who inspires or influences others, especially one prominent in a particular sphere.

Yep, I've shot with as in shot with some that inspired me, but to watch them fire their release was impossible to say how or what they did. I've even shot their releases, one I couldn't breath on without it going off and he was a NFAA Senior Triple Crown Champion. Another it seemed I had to rotate the hinge around the back of my head to get it to fire and with him firing it I didn't see any movement. 

Regardless, the subject was pinky finger. Want to try a pinky fire thumb release? I've got one. Factory set, no adjustment and you better be on target and only think about touching it. I can fire my 3 finger thumb release with my pinky finger. Hand broke, my little finger didn't heal correctly, over laps my ring finger and I can catch it right on the end of the handle. Of course my 4 finger is for the pinky finger.
You know, if you have a four finger thumb or hinge, what's the pinky for, just along for the ride?


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## cbrunson

bgviii said:


> I started a thread last week about hinge speed and that led into some timing discussion and thoughts that were as interesting as they were helpful. One of the things i've noticed about the Tekmitchov article above is that he suggests looking at the pin instead of the X. I have found this to be a great way to alleviate pressure and recently only discovered this to help stop my hinge from hanging up. Why am I mentioning this? Because in every opinion, some person might find something useful and interesting, if not applicable, to their archery experience. I love reading your banter and at the very least it's more entertaining the usual sports comments on other sites. So from here, i say let 'er rip people!


That's the only reason I participate. To get people thinking outside the proverbial box a little. Too many people believe that there is a mystical combination of elements that all need to be aligned and practiced until you can't screw it up. But I will tell you for certain that your body is not a machine. It will not behave the same from day to day no matter how much you practice. Some days you are stronger and some days you are weaker. Your time would be better spent learning what you need to do under different circumstances to achieve the same results. That is why I think a lot of those guys carry a hot and cold release. Each for what the shot process needs at that moment.

I used to fight the pin like many will discuss here. "It was perfect yesterday, so it must be me." I couldn't figure out why it was hitting an inch to the left or whatever. Now I just move the site and shoot. If you spend the time at the shoots with these guys at the top of our game, you will see they do the same thing. I've seen them twist the knobs. Heck, if you watch that video again, you will see Jesse turn his windage knob between shots. Do you think he is questioning what he is doing different that is making it hit left? I suspect he just sees that is where it's going so he fixes it right then. I won't say I know for certain because I really don't, but I'm pretty sure he isn't counting down the seconds to make sure he is keeping his timing right.

As far as focusing on the pin instead of the spot, I have had success with both methods, so I say take your pick. If the lighting is good, I will focus more down range to soften the contrast. If it is dark, or poor lighting, I will focus on the dot to increase the contrast. You learn those things from thinking about the shot while you're doing it.


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## cbrunson

montigre said:


> There is always something to learn, but as one's skills improve, it behooves them to seek that knowledge from people who are at least as knowledgable or better yet more so than themselves. This prevents them from endlessly spinning their wheels for months or years while they try to figure out why their "game" is suddenlt suffering.
> 
> Learning something from someone who has read about a technique in a book/online or heard Pro X, Y, or Z mention it in a brief pod cast is vastly different than being out there and learning it from the source on their own. Nothing can really surplant that type of REAL WORLD exposure when hoping to improves one's competitive archery experience.


:thumbs_up


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## dmacey

SonnyThomas said:


> Luminary; a person who inspires or influences others, especially one prominent in a particular sphere.
> 
> Yep, I've shot with as in shot with some that inspired me, but to watch them fire their release was impossible to say how or what they did. I've even shot their releases, one I couldn't breath on without it going off and he was a NFAA Senior Triple Crown Champion. Another it seemed I had to rotate the hinge around the back of my head to get it to fire and with him firing it I didn't see any movement.
> 
> Regardless, the subject was pinky finger. Want to try a pinky fire thumb release? I've got one. Factory set, no adjustment and you better be on target and only think about touching it. I can fire my 3 finger thumb release with my pinky finger. Hand broke, my little finger didn't heal correctly, over laps my ring finger and I can catch it right on the end of the handle. Of course my 4 finger is for the pinky finger.
> You know, if you have a four finger thumb or hinge, what's the pinky for, just along for the ride?


Speaking of the BG pinky thing, and I know it's gauche to just refer to videos on here, but I remember seeing Dahlia Crook doing the BG pinky thing with a 4 finger release at one point in time (in a video of course). I believe BG coaches her, so maybe it's a technique of his that he actually teaches? Unfortunately, I don't shoot a hinge at all so I'm just a spectator when it comes to these hinge threads...

DM


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## SonnyThomas

dmacey said:


> Speaking of the BG pinky thing, and I know it's *gauche* to just refer to videos on here, but I remember seeing Dahlia Crook doing the BG pinky thing with a 4 finger release at one point in time (in a video of course). I believe BG coaches her, so maybe it's a technique of his that he actually teaches? Unfortunately, I don't shoot a hinge at all so I'm just a spectator when it comes to these hinge threads...
> 
> DM


You're looking them fancy sophisticated words up in a dictionary  "lacking ease or grace; unsophisticated and socially awkward."


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## montigre

RCR_III said:


> Just me being who I am, I want to know the why's and how's. I break things apart to see how they work.


That is probably the biggest issue most amateurs and newer Pros have with regard to their overall shooting. They are thinking about it too much and generating even more mental garbage that they will only have to discard at some point down the line. Believe me, I have learned the hard way how much over thinking can be an impediment to one's success in this sport if it is allowed to run unchecked.... :wink:


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## dmacey

SonnyThomas said:


> You're looking them fancy sophisticated words up in a dictionary  "lacking ease or grace; unsophisticated and socially awkward."


Well I gotta do something to sound "I-A" on here, don't I? And I'm not a mutant freak of nature like yourself who can still outshoot your whole town even with bionic arms and shoulders, so I have to prop myself up somehow ... 
PS: and I know it's OT, but sure glad it sounds like you're back shooting again?... you and EPLC both....

DM


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## RCR_III

montigre said:


> That is probably the biggest issue most amateurs and newer Pros have with regard to their overall shooting. They are thinking about it too much and generating even more mental garbage that they will only have to discard at some point down the line. Believe me, I have learned the hard way how much over thinking can be an impediment to one's success in this sport if it is allowed to run unchecked.... :wink:


Someone has to understand the mechanics of things to explain them or help improve on them ;-)


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## grantmac

Unless you outfitted a hinge with pressure sensors (which would be awesome) you will never really know what is happening, I think even if you are the archer doing it. Anyone who has followed this forum for a while knows there are countless ways to activate any handheld release, any one of which could be beneficial for a given situation.
Does it really matter what a specific archer is physically doing if you aren't privy to the mental process which accompanies it?

I shoot a 3 finger hinge with the vast majority of the pressure on my muddle finger, the release just sort of rotates around it. My index relaxing is what drives the rotation. The ring finger feels like it's along for the ride, when I add pressure to it the hinge actually seems to slow down? We all "know" that adding pressure with the ring should have the opposite effect. My best guess is that added pressure creates tension across the hand in general, but it could also be purely psychological. I've shot video of executing using my normal method and also adding pressure with the ring and you really can't see a difference.

My point being that no single movement can be viewed in isolation from either the mental program running it or the effect it might be having on other parts of the shot.

Grant


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## cbrunson

grantmac said:


> My point being that no single movement can be viewed in isolation from either the mental program running it or the effect it might be having on other parts of the shot.
> 
> Grant


Let alone see it in a video and generate statements of validity based on your own assumptions.


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## montigre

RCR_III said:


> Someone has to understand the mechanics of things to explain them or help improve on them ;-)


A good archery friend of mine once asked if I wished to be a competent bow technician or a successful shooter and instructor... I stopped tinkering and researching as much as I had been and started concentrating on shooting and competing and have done pretty well. I still do my own work on my bow, I still teach, but I have regained my focus on what I need to do to reach my goals in this sport. You make your own decision.


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## RCR_III

montigre said:


> A good archery friend of mine once asked if I wished to be a competent bow technician or a successful shooter and instructor... I stopped tinkering and researching as much as I had been and started concentrating on shooting and competing and have done pretty well. I still do my own work on my bow, I still teach, but I have regained my focus on what I need to do to reach my goals in this sport. You make your own decision.


Absolutely.


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## jim p

I thought that the HBX was the solution to all of this release manipulation.


With a single cam bow and a .004" clicker I could shoot pure back tension all the time. With a .008" clicker and limb stops, it took me 5 years just to develop another method of shooting my hinge.


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## possum trapper

so do you wanna be your own person or someone else?????

most people will say "i wanna be my own person"right?

so be your own person and do it your way.very few people can copy other archers and get the same results.why is that????because like the way Braden thinks works for him just like Reo,Jesse or whoever.The reason it works for them is that they way they do it goes hand in hand on how they think..

to be the best YOU can be you need to do things the way YOU do it and perfect it the best YOU can do it.

the only thing you can copy to a T is mechanical setup and that is not 100% that its gonna work for you because of controlling muscles and not every person is the exact same.

find out what works for you 90% of the time and work on that 10%


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## mike 66

montigre said:


> That is probably the biggest issue most amateurs and newer Pros have with regard to their overall shooting. They are thinking about it too much and generating even more mental garbage that they will only have to discard at some point down the line. Believe me, I have learned the hard way how much over thinking can be an impediment to one's success in this sport if it is allowed to run unchecked.... :wink:


post of the year by montigre...dont over think the shot you might outsmart yourself.


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## nestly

Now wait a minute. How many of you saying to stop reading and just shoot would also say to ignore an archery coach and just shoot? Now I'm in no way suggesting that reading and/or watching video is as effective as having a coach, but disregarding the wealth of written and video resources available isn't great advice either. If I'm wrong, then why not just shut down the I-A forum and AT in general as all it's doing is wasting time that people should be spending shooting. 

There's good information and there's bad, but you don't throw out the baby with the bathwater.


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## SonnyThomas

nestly said:


> Now wait a minute. How many of you saying to stop reading and just shoot would also say to ignore an archery coach and just shoot? Now I'm in no way suggesting that reading and/or watching video is as effective as having a coach, but disregarding the wealth of written and video resources available isn't great advice either. If I'm wrong, then why not just shut down the I-A forum and AT in general as all it's doing is wasting time that people should be spending shooting.
> 
> There's good information and there's bad, but you don't throw out the baby with the bathwater.


Not me. Just saying watching a video and catching what might be using the pinky finger is just that, might be using the pinky finger. No way am I going to second guess Braden G. Look down through this thread and pinky finger was the subject and now something else is the subject. The other part of the problem is the hinge, back tension and manipulation of the hinge has been discussed to death in this forum.


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## EPLC

cbrunson said:


> How many of you know him, or have shot with him recently? I know Shawn_in_MA has. (I was there for one )
> 
> Not to start a pissing match, but there seems to be a lot of hearsay. Unless of coarse you shoot with him. What you see in these videos shows very little as to what is really going on at the shot. I know that from just watching videos I've taken of myself. A lot of movement happens before the shot is there. That moment where everything comes into place is very short.


He used to shoot occasionally at my club as he was dating a member at the time. I shot a 3D Sectional with him on a cold rainy date a long time ago. I remember him saying he didn't think he'd be shooting anymore 3D. I wouldn't pretend to know much about his shot but I did ask him about the hand movement and he said he didn't use the hand to execute... I didn't pursue his answer. I do know the guy can shoot.


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## EPLC

jim p said:


> I thought that the HBX was the solution to all of this release manipulation.
> 
> 
> With a single cam bow and a .004" clicker I could shoot pure back tension all the time. With a .008" clicker and limb stops, it took me 5 years just to develop another method of shooting my hinge.


Since you brought it up. I find the HBX to be an interesting piece of equipment. I've occasionally shot my best groups with it... along with some of my worst. I find it to be very finicky although it seems to have a nice sweet spot. Of all the methods they claim will work to fire it I have only found one. But... when I am on with it the thing is the best I've shot. I just wish I could be more consistent with it.


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## va MTN MAN

So since I shoot higher field round scores than you I should ignore anything you say? 



montigre said:


> There is always something to learn, but as one's skills improve, it behooves them to seek that knowledge from people who are at least as knowledgable or better yet more so than themselves. This prevents them from endlessly spinning their wheels for months or years while they try to figure out why their "game" is suddenlt suffering.
> 
> Learning something from someone who has read about a technique in a book/online or heard Pro X, Y, or Z mention it in a brief pod cast is vastly different than being out there and learning it from the source on their own. Nothing can really surplant that type of REAL WORLD exposure when hoping to improves one's competitive archery experience.


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## va MTN MAN

I shot with him a couple years ago also and I couldnt believe the amount of travel he shot that day. He set up and started slowly rotating the release and it was at least an inch worth of travel on his fourth finger. He shot lights out by the way.



shawn_in_MA said:


> He DOES NOT fire his release with his pinky. There is barely any pressure on his release from his pinky at all. About 2 years ago he shot his release with a ton of travel. The release really never stopped moving. Then he switched to a real hot release where his thumb stayed on the peg and there was barely any movement. Right now he is keeping his thumb on the peg but there is more movement in the release. Most of the movement comes from a combination of relaxing tension on the thumb peg and adding pressure with his 2nd and 3rd fingers


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## bgviii

I guess I don' t really get the big deal. If an archer like Braden is successful with a perceived certain method and another archer thinks "hey! that might work for me! I'll try it" what's wrong with that? Even if it's not even the way BG actually shoots it, if it provides someone with another way to find something that works for them, I think thats great! Even if it doesn't work, who cares? This is an individual sport with some consistencies across the board, and definitely some cause and effect actions, but ulitmately, whatever process works for the individual is all that matters. I think "discovery" comments like this original thread are fantastic. The goal should be to share as much information as possible and let the individual decide. All this hoopla is basically just kinda "funny", for lack of a better word without insulting anyone.


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## EPLC

I think everyone should read the Reo quote below...


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## nestly

bgviii said:


> I guess I don' t really get the big deal. If an archer like Braden is successful with a perceived certain method and another archer thinks "hey! that might work for me! I'll try it" what's wrong with that? Even if it's not even the way BG actually shoots it, if it provides someone with another way to find something that works for them, I think thats great! Even if it doesn't work, who cares? This is an individual sport with some consistencies across the board, and definitely some cause and effect actions, but ulitmately, whatever process works for the individual is all that matters. I think "discovery" comments like this original thread are fantastic. The goal should be to share as much information as possible and let the individual decide. All this hoopla is basically just kinda "funny", for lack of a better word without insulting anyone.


Exactly. 
It's ridiculous for some to suggest there's no benefit to watching high level archers, and/or trying the techniques they use just because it didn't occur during a personal conversation with them. Reading some of the comments here, it seems some in this topic would have us believe they learned everything they know about archery on their own in a vacuum, or during a personal conversation with one of archery's most elite figures, or maybe they believe they are the only ones able to tell the wheat from the chaff? Either way, it comes off as arrogant and conceited.
There is simply no harm in having this conversation. If someone watches the video or reads this thread and thinks that turning a hinge style release with the pinky is the solution that's going to make them shoot as well as Braden, they'll find out soon enough whether they are right or not when they try it.


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## dmacey

nestly said:


> Exactly.
> It's ridiculous for some to suggest there's no benefit to watching high level archers, and/or trying the techniques they use just because it didn't occur during a personal conversation with them. Reading some of the comments here, it seems some in this topic would have us believe they learned everything they know about archery on their own in a vacuum, or during a personal conversation with one of archery's most elite figures, or maybe they believe they are the only ones able to tell the wheat from the chaff? Either way, it comes off as arrogant and conceited... because it is.
> 
> There is simply no harm in having this conversation. If someone watches the video or reads this thread and thinks that turning a hinge style release with the pinky is the solution that's going to make them shoot as well as Braden, they'll find out soon enough whether they are right or not when they try it.


Exactly. And that's why the celebrated "don't listen to anyone who doesn't shoot as good as you" advice is terrible when you're consulting an online forum like this one. There's no way to really verify the claims of "almost 30x" games by the claimants - shooting with Reo doesn't mean the plaintiff could _compete_ with Reo and so forth. When you're dealing with an internet forum, the writer is more likely some kid in a dorm room somewhere than an actual regular Vegas shoot-down contestant. Not necessarily and not always the case, but I'm just saying that's the likelihood in general.

If you're talking about face-to-face interaction with a coach or fellow shooters in your area, that's completely different - you're there, you know the person and you can see how (s)he shoots. Then you have the information you need to make a qualified judgement. In the absence of that, it's really a waste of time to try to demand credentials and separate the wheat from the chaff. You can make some judgements based on how they present what they're saying, but apart from that, you don't have that much to go on really. 

What I do is selectively read what I want and leave the rest; I also encourage my detractors to do the same. My shooting hasn't been negatively affected at all by ignoring the alleged-near-Vegas-level guys and gals on here, or criticizing them when they say something strange or that I know is incorrect. And I'm sure theirs hasn't either.

If you _really truly honestly_ need to be only getting input from the elite level shooting community and not from the noobs, you _really need_ to be going somewhere else than here. That's nothing against AT, that's just the truth of the matter when it comes to online forums.

Remember folks: this is supposed to be fun!

DM


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## SonnyThomas

Watching and knowing what's going on can be two different things. I couldn't shoot this year so I all could do was watch. I watched two money shoots where these shooters went after the 14 ring like blood thirsty lions and they were hitting that 14 ring like it was nothing. One target was 43 yards out. Danny Evans, Kevin Koch and others shooting and not once could I see any detectable movement other than some had their release hand come back a ways. Some tried my theraband trainer and within 2 and 3 feet of them I couldn't see much of anything, thumb and hinge releases. I watched Mike Flier try 3 of my hinges one day. Set for me and he shot them like they were set for him. All he said was one being a little slow and one a little fast. Damned if I could tell. I ended up selling him my Stan Blackjack. 

So who's going to be the one to use the pinky finger to fire a hinge? I don't have a 4 finger hinge or I'd try....


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## Padgett

Archery talk is a interesting place to survive to say the least.


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## dmacey

Well you Sonny and Robert excepted of course... you guys rock (to me).. 

DM


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## montigre

va MTN MAN said:


> So since I shoot higher field round scores than you I should ignore anything you say?


Haha...Of course not and that is not what I have been saying. I suppose since we have shot at some of the same shoots and you know me and my level of experience, if you came on here with a really tricky intermediate or advanced shooting issue you would not come to me for advice and I likewise would not just blurt out my opinion of what may be going on. I would recognize that I probably had not personally experienced the same or similar issue and would keep my mouth shut, sit back, and try to learn something. 

If you have not noticed, I do try very hard to vet my responses so that they remain within the parameters of my knowledge base; much unlike some others who seem to just like to hear themselves chatter, provide misinformation, or seek to build up hit ratings on their personal websites.... 

For example, a top-level shooter recently came on here with a problem and he's told by a relative newbie to compound shooter to visit his website for an article on how to set up a release...paleeese....I laughed so hard at that I though I would split a gut...talk about blind arrogance.... 

'Nuff said!! I have to get ready to fly out tomorrow to the OTC for the USA Archery coaching symposium...


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## nestly

I know nothing of the situation described above, but isn't it somewhat odd for a "top-level shooter" to seek help in a open/public forum rather than consulting coach/friends/peers?


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## montigre

nestly said:


> I know nothing of the situation described above, but isn't it somewhat odd for a "top-level shooter" to seek help in a open/public forum rather than consulting coach/friends/peers?


It used to be done on AT all the time, oh Padawan....


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## nestly

I'll repeat my sentiment that it seems odd. 

I don't imagine too many Sprint Cup drivers ask for advise in car forums, nor NFL players in football forums, nor Tennis or Golf Pro's in those forums, etc. They may participate occasionally.... but top-level "anything" asking advice from the general public about equipment or how to compete at a higher level... I don't believe it, Master Yoda


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## bgviii

nestly said:


> I know nothing of the situation described above, but isn't it somewhat odd for a "top-level shooter" to seek help in a open/public forum rather than consulting coach/friends/peers?


"One isn't truly a master until they can learn from the student" or something like that. Ha Ha!


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## SonnyThomas

nestly said:


> I know nothing of the situation described above, but isn't it somewhat odd for a "top-level shooter" to seek help in a open/public forum rather than consulting coach/friends/peers?


Hey, every once in a while some go "fishing" to get a chuckle....


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## LMacD

"I don't imagine too many Sprint Cup drivers ask for advise in car forums, nor NFL players in football forums, nor Tennis or Golf Pro's in those forums, etc. They may participate occasionally.... but top-level "anything" asking advice from the general public about equipment or how to compete at a higher level... I don't believe it, Master Yoda"

Perhaps it's due in part to one or more pros having established AT to start with? Unlike in pretty much ever other "game", right here we have a forum that was created and used by the pros. For sure, you're not going to find too many open chat areas created by Tiger, Van Halen, or Sydney Crosby. The flip side being, the "superstars" that we know of aren't exactly household names in the general public. Ask my wife's friends who Reo and Levi are. They'll say a city and pants - guaranteed. But they know who Rory is by first name alone. It's easy to forget that our passion is pretty small potatoes compared to the PGA, MLB, NFL, etc. Not even close to the same thing.


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## WhitBri

As far as the video of Braden shooting I will say his form has evolved greatly over the years. It use to be something I would try to emulate but not now. But I'm also not going to tell him to change either. Just paying attention to the archery world I have noticed recently he has had much more success in the world archery events than the nfaa events. Difference might be the shot clock and head to head format he has adapted his form to fit this format. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Padgett

Wow, I guess a few months of getting along has past and it is time for some people to allow their feelings come out to play. 

It is me that a couple of our members are referring to, it is what it is and just human nature.

In the end things will work out and we can get back to getting better at presenting information and learning how to get to that next level.


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## Mahly

So for the sake of the thread, can we limit the discussion to the firing of hinges, and not who can/should coach whom? That is a whole new thread (and if started will be watched closely for trolling, personal attacks, arguing etc).

:focus:


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## EPLC

Not sure what the issue is here? Lot's of very successful archers use some kind of hand manipulation to execute. Eric Griggs posted several times about this here on AT over the years. Really good stuff to search on.


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## Xinc.

va MTN MAN said:


> I shot with him a couple years ago also and I couldnt believe the amount of travel he shot that day. He set up and started slowly rotating the release and it was at least an inch worth of travel on his fourth finger. He shot lights out by the way.


 one continuous flow , his shot is , super aggressive , and he shoots fast as lightning - 
There is much more to be learned shooting with him than dissecting his physical shot - ( and there is a lot you can learn breaking his shot down ) 
He is one of the most positive people you can ever share a bale with , and if your shooting next to him your gonna be laughing on line , behind the business face is a funny man.


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