# ASA 14 ring. Has it been good for ASA 3d.



## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

Im really undecided about this. Im thinking it has widen the gap from the top pros and bottom guys. I think I like the game better without the 14ring.
DB


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## TANC (Mar 14, 2005)

I would like to see it with NO 14 ring and NO upper 12, but I know why they did both. ukey:


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## NABE07 (May 31, 2007)

TANC, Whats the reason behind them then?


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## luvcamogirl (Apr 8, 2008)

Has a woman, I personally like the 14's, make up some points.But I like the idea of having to call it before you shoot it.


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## Indiana ASA (May 2, 2008)

*14 Rings*

I think it's great, it rewards you for a bad shot


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## okarcher (Jul 21, 2002)

I like it. I like the challenge of it. The risk vs. reward part of the 14 its just like the low 12. If you like the low 12 then you should like the 14, they serve the same purpose(risk and reward). And on the reward for a bad shot stuff why do you think people shoot at center 10s and say I should luck out and catch a few. Trust me we've all made bad shots that ended up a lot better than they should have. Of course this is just imho not trying to argue the point. Just like all things some are happy with it, some not and some don't care either way. Just stick some foam in front of me and i'll shoot it.


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## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

*14 rings*

My only thoughts it really has seperated alot of archers from really having a chance. Seems like some were able to compete better without them. 

No fear and hitting the 14rings makes you a winner.
DB


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## Avalon (Jul 23, 2007)

Even tho I am a middle of the pack 3d shooter, I like the 14 ring and the way I believe it's sepereated the pack. 
I like the extra reward for taking the risk. It just kicks my butt, but I wouldn't want to go back.


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## JPE (Feb 1, 2004)

I typically shoot IBO events simply because of my location and available funds, these are the easiest shoots for me to get to. However, I was able to make it to the ASA shoot in London this past weekend and had a great time.

From my perspective, I really like the 12's and 14's as they are. As this was my first ASA event I have no idea what the history has been but I really enjoyed the risk/reward opportunities. I think what truly separates those at the top from those at the bottom is a solid strategy. 

Sure, top shooters have better odds of hitting the 14's, but they're also more likely to make smart shots. I saw a lot of guys in London get down a few points and then just start pounding away for the 14 ring only to do way more damage. If they would have kept hitting 10's until they got to a target with a higher percentage chance of hitting the 12 or 14 they would have come out way ahead of where they ended up.

The IBO is a different game. There you aim at the 11 on every single shot because it's right in the center of the 10. No real strategy involved. The 12's and 14's in the ASA really give you something to think about. Safe play is to aim at the center of the 10, just like in the IBO, but if you get behind a few points you have to make a concious decision to risk losing more points by aiming away from this safe zone.

Just my 2 cents from the perspective of an ASA rookie.....


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## Bowtech n ROSS (Aug 30, 2007)

wish the asa used ibo scoring i like ibo but i like the organization of the asa


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## frydaddy40 (Oct 17, 2007)

*I agree*



Daniel Boone said:


> My only thoughts it really has seperated alot of archers from really having a chance. Seems like some were able to compete better without them.
> 
> No fear and hitting the 14rings makes you a winner.
> DB



I agree, but the great shooter's will always rise to the top.  Gary


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## allxs (Mar 10, 2005)

*strategy*

IMHO,

ASA Scoring make it a more interesting game, strategy comes into play alot more than in IBO, IBO statagy is simple, Judge well and shoot the center, if your off a little its still a 10. On an ASA target, you have to think about where you are in the contest, how many targets left, how far out of the chase are your, how well are you hitting, how much risk are you willing to take for how much reward. A good IBO shooter shouldnt have trouble on an ASA course if they follow the IBO strategy, 4 up on the hunter class took third, last weekend ~ if you shoot and judge well and aim at the IBO ring a good IBO shooter ought to be able to eek out a 4 up on an ASA course.


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## TANC (Mar 14, 2005)

NABE07 said:


> TANC, Whats the reason behind them then?


The 14 was a stategic plan. The upper 12 was to save targets. At least from what I'm told.


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## reylamb (Feb 5, 2003)

I like them personally. It has added another element to the game, regardless of which class, course strategy. Whether it is all unknown classes or all known classes it added strategy, planning out the course and deciding when to go for broke and when to shoot safe. 

Does it further seperate the field? Maybe it does, but should we dumb it down to bring everyone on equal footing?


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## Spoon13 (Feb 20, 2007)

reylamb said:


> I like them personally. It has added another element to the game, regardless of which class, course strategy. Whether it is all unknown classes or all known classes it added strategy, planning out the course and deciding when to go for broke and when to shoot safe.
> 
> Does it further seperate the field? Maybe it does, but should we dumb it down to bring everyone on equal footing?


I agree 100%.


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## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

*Keeping it equal*



reylamb said:


> I like them personally. It has added another element to the game, regardless of which class, course strategy. Whether it is all unknown classes or all known classes it added strategy, planning out the course and deciding when to go for broke and when to shoot safe.
> 
> Does it further seperate the field? Maybe it does, but should we dumb it down to bring everyone on equal footing?



Can certianly be a good thing. :wink: Kinda like the 280fps speed rule.
DB


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## WVTrophyhunter (Apr 29, 2008)

Im just getting back int the 3D shooting and I know im probably gonna step on a few toes here but I dont like the whole ASA rule of just pushing or touching the line to get the score. I guess Im old school and still believe that unless you are clearly cutting the line that you should take the lower score. I dont mean to offend anyone or question the ASA rules. Im just saying that with the huge arrows that are out there now, Fatboys, Linejammer and the huge goldtip 30x. its not that hard to touch a line. I just think it makes you a better shooter if you can put it in the ring instead of touching or pushing. Thats just my opinion of things. Like I said earlier dont mean to offend anyone...


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## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

*Got to be rules*



WVTrophyhunter said:


> Im just getting back int the 3D shooting and I know im probably gonna step on a few toes here but I dont like the whole ASA rule of just pushing or touching the line to get the score. I guess Im old school and still believe that unless you are clearly cutting the line that you should take the lower score. I dont mean to offend anyone or question the ASA rules. Im just saying that with the huge arrows that are out there now, Fatboys, Linejammer and the huge goldtip 30x. its not that hard to touch a line. I just think it makes you a better shooter if you can put it in the ring instead of touching or pushing. Thats just my opinion of things. Like I said earlier dont mean to offend anyone...


I think touching is the best way to judge. Cutting the line can be a tough call. Whats the difference there making the 12 ring smaller. Everyone has to shoot by the same rules. Larger arrow those 12 rings are still challenging enough for me.
DB


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## mathewsgirl13 (Mar 12, 2007)

Daniel Boone said:


> Im really undecided about this. Im thinking it has widen the gap from the top pros and bottom guys. I think I like the game better without the 14ring.
> DB


agreed.. I don't care for the 14 ring... because honestly, some people are just lucky as all get out and can hit those 14's but can't hit a 12 to save their lives...

just my two cents though


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## gotcha nock Jim (Apr 7, 2008)

Daniel Boone said:


> My only thoughts it really has seperated alot of archers from really having a chance. Seems like some were able to compete better without them.
> 
> No fear and hitting the 14rings makes you a winner.
> DB


Hey DB ,14's even widen my scoring average, as you well know, hit a couple , I love em. Miss 8 or 5 I think , HOW STUPID CAN I BE! IF they went away I wouldn't miss em! But it does certainly make it interesting. I think our ole buddy ART is probably the smarter of our group , I don't think I've seen him shoot at any of em except maybe Limb saver or practice,


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## luvcamogirl (Apr 8, 2008)

WVTrophyhunter said:


> Im just getting back int the 3D shooting and I know im probably gonna step on a few toes here but I dont like the whole ASA rule of just pushing or touching the line to get the score. I guess Im old school and still believe that unless you are clearly cutting the line that you should take the lower score. I dont mean to offend anyone or question the ASA rules. Im just saying that with the huge arrows that are out there now, Fatboys, Linejammer and the huge goldtip 30x. its not that hard to touch a line. I just think it makes you a better shooter if you can put it in the ring instead of touching or pushing. Thats just my opinion of things. Like I said earlier dont mean to offend anyone...


Very well said, we would see alot better shooters and then the competition would really be rough .


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## la.basscat (Jan 16, 2006)

I don't care for the 14 or the known distance on the second day. The upper 12 is a challange and helps save targets. Put the 14 in for shoot downs and limbsavor known shoots only. The way I feel.


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## viperarcher (Jul 6, 2007)

IBO 11's ring I think I like the Ibo rules !


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## Gary Lee Head (Feb 5, 2007)

*14 ring*

Slow and steady wins the race


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## reylamb (Feb 5, 2003)

Daniel Boone said:


> Can certianly be a good thing. :wink: Kinda like the 280fps speed rule.
> DB


Equality is good. Having said that, everyone out there has the same chances and same opportunities to hit the 14s as hitting the 12s. At the end of the day the only thing that changes is the difference in score between the top and the bottom. Those on top will still be on top, those on the bottom will still be on the bottom.

Think about it this way. The guys pounding the 14s will be pounding the 12s instead. Those that are missing the 14s will still miss the 12. At the end of the day the difference is 9 points for missing the 14 high when your competitor hits it. Missing low will be a 6 point difference instead.

Heck, if we want equality, just go to 8 - 5 - 0 scoring......then everyone can feel like a winner and be equal. 

While there have to be basic rules of competition, not everything in the competition is fair. Is it fair that Tiger can hit is 300+ and Corey Pavin only hits it 265 ish on a good day? Is it fair that some guys are blessed with height and speed in basketball, but some short guys don't stand a chance because of their height? No. At the end of the day though, everyone has the same chance with 14s in play. Some are just better than others, and as is the case with most other parts of life, the cream will rise to the top.


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## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

*Heck lets just put a ring on top of the back*



reylamb said:


> Equality is good. Having said that, everyone out there has the same chances and same opportunities to hit the 14s as hitting the 12s. At the end of the day the only thing that changes is the difference in score between the top and the bottom. Those on top will still be on top, those on the bottom will still be on the bottom.
> 
> Think about it this way. The guys pounding the 14s will be pounding the 12s instead. Those that are missing the 14s will still miss the 12. At the end of the day the difference is 9 points for missing the 14 high when your competitor hits it. Missing low will be a 6 point difference instead.
> 
> ...



Call it a 18 ring. Make the game more challenging. Sometimes simple and keeping the game simple seems like a good thing to me. I often hear many say they dont like the 14 ring. But someone made the new rule. Who knows maybe there will be an 18 ring someday. Dynaymics of the game changed with the 14 ring. Works for some and others drop way down the pack and finally decide they cant compete. Thats not what you want and I hope that is not what happens.
DB
DB


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## jwolfe78 (Mar 10, 2006)

I think the 14 ring favors the steady spot shooters, especially in classes that have known yardage..... I don't see a problem with having a 14 ring... just like every sport (baseball, football, basketball) strategy comes into play... what do you do with 1 out... or 20 seconds left on the clock and down by 2 or 1 to tie or go for 2 and win? Strategy is they key to every sport that is played and archery isn't any different.


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## Spoon13 (Feb 20, 2007)

Daniel Boone said:


> Call it a 18 ring. Make the game more challenging. Sometimes simple and keeping the game simple seems like a good thing to me. I often hear many say they dont like the 14 ring. But someone made the new rule. Who knows maybe there will be an 18 ring someday. Dynaymics of the game changed with the 14 ring. Works for some and others drop way down the pack and finally decide they cant compete. Thats not what you want and I hope that is not what happens.
> DB
> DB


The creation of the 14 ring did not send these people down in the pack. Good shooters are good shooters, no matter what and those good shooters will be at the top, no matter what. I can not agree with your idea that by having a 14 ring on the target will ultimately end in people not competing. Shooters either put the time in and better their skills or the don't. That choice is up to the shooter. If you choose to shoot at the 14 ring then don't blame ASA for putting it there. You don't have to shoot at it and you can still finish well anyway.


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## treeman65 (Nov 24, 2005)

Bowtech n ROSS said:


> wish the asa used ibo scoring i like ibo but i like the organization of the asa


 I second that.:darkbeer:


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## ABOK (Feb 20, 2006)

*11, 12 or 14 ?????????????????????*

I will shoot what ever they put out there, with that being said; shooting an IBO lately seems to be a whole lot simpler and alot less stressful. It comes right down to yardage and shooting and not worrying if I need to shoot this 14 or is everyone shooting this 14 or do I lay up and shoot for a 12 at the smart side. 
Just my assesment of it all, I shoot both venues and will continue to shoot both ASA and IBO and hopefully I will learn to make good decisions......


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## bhtr3d (Feb 13, 2004)

treeman65 said:


> I second that.:darkbeer:



I'd like ibo to use ASA scoring for the simple fact its been around longer 

and im refering to the 12 ring to the 11 ring.


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## DONDEERE (Sep 24, 2007)

Spoon13 said:


> The creation of the 14 ring did not send these people down in the pack. Good shooters are good shooters, no matter what and those good shooters will be at the top, no matter what. I can not agree with your idea that by having a 14 ring on the target will ultimately end in people not competing. Shooters either put the time in and better their skills or the don't. That choice is up to the shooter. If you choose to shoot at the 14 ring then don't blame ASA for putting it there. You don't have to shoot at it and you can still finish well anyway.


...EXCELLENT POSTAGE:darkbeer:

...if folks don't enjoy a CHALLENGE...then just stay home and complain about how you coulda been the man "if it wasn't for_________________"...

...if you just have to win to feel good about yourself...shoot NFAA events...

...where they "almost" have a class for every contestant:darkbeer:

...the 14 ring has been good for the ASA participants...as has been the "known Distance" for the lower classes...

...DANNY BOONE...*OBT says* the rings have been placed on the targets to "save" them because they are crap targets...do you agree with his assesment as to "why" the additional rings were added??...


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## Lonestar63 (Mar 19, 2007)

Indiana ASA said:


> I think it's great, it rewards you for a bad shot


Bowcat has this opinion of the 14 as well, and i kind of agree with him.
3d initially was started to make us better bowhunters. Shoot year round so to speak and stay sharp so you would be ready when hunting season rolled around.

The placement of the 14 ring would be a terrible shot on a deer in a real life situation.

In the 3d world its the best shot you can make.

3d archery and bowhunting are getting farther and farther apart.

I still absolutely love both of them!


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## cenochs (May 2, 2007)

DB, let me get this right I quote you " touching the line is harder to call than cutting the line." Man I want to shoot with you sometime my scores would greatly increase. When we shoot at our club there is no pulling the line or maybe touching the line. It has to be cutting the line our without a doubt no question touching the line. I think it should go back to only inside scoring. The arrow has to be inside the scoring rings not touching any line then there would be no argruments or mistakes.


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## Bubba Dean (Jun 2, 2005)

Lonestar- I agree that to aim at the 14's location on a live deer would be a mistake. If you are off the results would be bad but, if you shot for the 10 location and hit the 14 I believe you would get enough lung to be fatal. Bottomline for me is.......the 14 is a spot no matter whether it is located dead center of the vital or in the behind, if you can hit the spot you can pick the right one on a live animal and hit it. I don't buy into the theory that 3D teaches you to shoot animals in the wrong place. I think more animals are lost because of poor shot selection than poor shot placement learned through shooting 3D targets.


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## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

*Read the ASA rules*



cenochs said:


> DB, let me get this right I quote you " touching the line is harder to call than cutting the line." Man I want to shoot with you sometime my scores would greatly increase. When we shoot at our club there is no pulling the line or maybe touching the line. It has to be cutting the line our without a doubt no question touching the line. I think it should go back to only inside scoring. The arrow has to be inside the scoring rings not touching any line then there would be no argruments or mistakes.


Attend an ASA event. Rules clearly say touch the line. No where is cut in the rules. I dont make the rules but in the pro ranks, I know how to call the arrow in the target.:wink: I dont have any promblem calling arrows because I know the rules. Never seen or had anyone question any of my calls.
DB


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## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

*My thought*



DONDEERE said:


> ...EXCELLENT POSTAGE:darkbeer:
> 
> ...if folks don't enjoy a CHALLENGE...then just stay home and complain about how you coulda been the man "if it wasn't for_________________"...
> 
> ...


I think they were oringinally to make the game more challenging. With the new inserts and targets there still changing the size and placement of the fourteen. According to my buddies in Kentucky the targets with the new inserts the 14 right by the ten ring. Several guys hit the 14 on luck because its very close to the ten ring now.
Wouldnt surprise me if wasnt placed there to keep the targets from getting shot up. Upper 12 ring on marked yardage was darn sure put there for that reason. Bet we see several changes in ASA in the next two years.:wink:
New insert targets are going to changed ring placement for sure.
DB


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## Spoon13 (Feb 20, 2007)

I think that ASA and Delta need to figure out what they want to do and go with it instead of having so much of a variety in targets. If they want to change the sizes of the rings, that's fine, if they want to go with inserts, that's fine as well. The problem of the 14 ring getting closer to the ten is just a matter of geography. If you look at the Black Bear, the 14 ring is inside the insert. By doing that, there is only so much room to use so it's only natural that the rings get closer. On the rest of the new XT Series, the 14 ring is outside the insert allowing it to be farther away in it's normal placement.

I hope that they decide to go with the outside placement. You will have fewer accidental 14's than you would inside. I myself did it in Augusta and I can promise you, I didn't give it back. The outside placement makes the shooter consciously decide to commit to shooting the 14, rather than holding close to the 10 and hoping it jumps in. 

This is my opinion and as of yet, Mike has not contacted me for it.:wink:


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## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

*I heard*



Spoon13 said:


> I think that ASA and Delta need to figure out what they want to do and go with it instead of having so much of a variety in targets. If they want to change the sizes of the rings, that's fine, if they want to go with inserts, that's fine as well. The problem of the 14 ring getting closer to the ten is just a matter of geography. If you look at the Black Bear, the 14 ring is inside the insert. By doing that, there is only so much room to use so it's only natural that the rings get closer. On the rest of the new XT Series, the 14 ring is outside the insert allowing it to be farther away in it's normal placement.
> 
> I hope that they decide to go with the outside placement. You will have fewer accidental 14's than you would inside. I myself did it in Augusta and I can promise you, I didn't give it back. The outside placement makes the shooter consciously decide to commit to shooting the 14, rather than holding close to the 10 and hoping it jumps in.
> 
> This is my opinion and as of yet, Mike has not contacted me for it.:wink:



A few guys lucked into a 14 on the ones close to ten ring.:wink: I do agree Im hoping for some consistancy. Targets are not cheap.
DB


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## Spoon13 (Feb 20, 2007)

Lonestar63 said:


> Bowcat has this opinion of the 14 as well, and i kind of agree with him.
> 3d initially was started to make us better bowhunters. Shoot year round so to speak and stay sharp so you would be ready when hunting season rolled around.
> 
> The placement of the 14 ring would be a terrible shot on a deer in a real life situation.
> ...



I agree 100% that the roots of 3D archery are in hunting. 3D was created so that people could continue to shoot and be ready for hunting season when it came in. However, 3D archery has evolved. It is a game. However it is STILL a very useful tool in the preparation for hunting season. It make you pick a spot and shoot at the spot much like you would from a treestand or blind. The fact that the rings may or may not be in the proper place for a kill shot is not important. The rings are there so that the GAME can be scored. The 2 sports are still very much the same yet very different. It's all a matter of what you want to get out of it.

One must choose which approach to take, practice or competition?? Neither is absolutely right, but neither is absolutely wrong either.


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## Lonestar63 (Mar 19, 2007)

Bubba Dean said:


> I don't buy into the theory that 3D teaches you to shoot animals in the wrong place. I think more animals are lost because of poor shot selection than poor shot placement learned through shooting 3D targets.





Spoon13 said:


> I agree 100% that the roots of 3D archery are in hunting. 3D was created so that people could continue to shoot and be ready for hunting season when it came in. However, 3D archery has evolved. It is a game. However it is STILL a very useful tool in the preparation for hunting season. It make you pick a spot and shoot at the spot much like you would from a treestand or blind. The fact that the rings may or may not be in the proper place for a kill shot is not important. The rings are there so that the GAME can be scored. The 2 sports are still very much the same yet very different. It's all a matter of what you want to get out of it.
> 
> One must choose which approach to take, practice or competition?? Neither is absolutely right, but neither is absolutely wrong either.


I don't buy into that theory either. Common sense and experience teaches us where to make a lethal hit on a deer.
There is no better training aid for a bowhunter than 3d, for the simple fact that we have a bow in our hands year round.
I agree Spoon, 3d is a different game now.
I still absolutely love bowhunting and 3d, as strange as the placement is on that 14 ring.
Got me so excited i shot 2 shots at the 14 this morning at 40 yards. First shot was to the right for an 8. 2nd shot was good as i had an arrow marking the way.
I was at home, with no pressure, and an even yardage, 2 things you rarely have at an ASA shoot.
Think i'll practice more on em, and maybe go for some next year if the situation is right.


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## GreggWNY (Sep 6, 2002)

I like the 14 ring but....

Consider this:

Most guys who go after a lot of 14's come out on the loosing end of the deal.

Most guys who start shooting at the 14's are usually way down anyway and have the mind set of nothing to lose.

The better shooters will stay away from the 14's on most shots and lean into the higher percentage 12's and go after a few of the closer, lower risk 14's.

Marked yardage days give guys more confidence to try for the 14's but it's still a tough proposition on a target with no visible ring at distances passed 30 yards.

I like the bogie, birdie, eagle mentality of the various rings and think that the IBO would be well served to bring the 14 into play as well. IBO 8's are hard to make up using an eleven ring and 5's are just plain disasters.


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## CutTheLoop (Dec 26, 2007)

"Most guys who start shooting at the 14's are usually way down anyway and have the mind set of nothing to lose."

Yep, been there done that. Didn't even get a Tshirt:wink:


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## JPE (Feb 1, 2004)

GreggWNY said:


> I like the 14 ring but....
> 
> Consider this:
> 
> ...


Exactly.


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## Spoon13 (Feb 20, 2007)

GreggWNY said:


> I like the 14 ring but....
> Most guys who go after a lot of 14's come out on the loosing end of the deal.
> 
> Most guys who start shooting at the 14's are usually way down anyway and have the mind set of nothing to lose.


Funny, I don't remember shooting with you in Kentucky.:wink: I turned what could have been a good weekend into a bad weekend. Trying to make a run from 9 down on Sat I finished 12 down on Sunday with 4 5's. If I had not shot at a single 14 I would have finished up for the weekend. However in Augusta I hit 3 of them that helped me finish 3rd. 14's are no different than 12's really. Some days you couldn't buy one with a pocket of $100 bills, other days you get into a nest of them and can't get out. I do really enjoy having to make a decision as to how to manage your shots.


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