# Hoyt Santori clones



## Buran (Nov 26, 2018)

To my knownledge, Hoyt outsorced in China the crafting of several of their risers (including the Tiburon, Buffalo, Satori and even some carbon compound from the RWX series), and the manufacturers are now selling the same risers, just rebranded (the TBOW is virtually the 19" Satori riser, albeit uses different limbs). They aren't "clones", but the same product with different label. Satori's riser cost in my country is ~420 €; the TBOW one a little below 100 € (shipping included). I could be able to talk more about the topic if mine arrives in 3 weeks... But so far seems the same (Martin Hain from Archery Supplies has a video review about).


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## Jim Casto Jr (Aug 20, 2002)

Could you provide a source for your... well... accusations?

It is well accepted that Hoyt does and always has made their risers "in house" at their plant right here in the USA.


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## Jim Casto Jr (Aug 20, 2002)

From Randy Walk, president of Hoyt. 



> “… all Hoyt bows have and continue to be built in Salt Lake City, Utah, USA. In fact, due to the exceptional growth of our company, we have just built a brand new, 150,000 square foot manufacturing facility in Salt Lake City. This new state-of-the-art facility has allowed us to significantly improve all of our manufacturing processes including our state of the art machine shop, limb lamination and fabrication, specialized paint and finishing operation, custom string building, assembly production including carbon specific production lines where every single carbon bow we produce is built.”


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## Buran (Nov 26, 2018)

No, I can't. But there's clues: 

* Some brands, as PSE have been outsourcing some of their heritage traditional wood risers from China; as some of their dealers concede (ask Stephen Hains).
* Samick and Win & Win have been outsourcing entry level aluminum risers from China for years now, and some people claim that the thing is now happening even with high end carbon risers.
* Some of the best bycicle brands get their high-end carbon chasis from Chinese manufacturers.
* If you're cloning a product which you will rebrand diferently makes no sense to copy even the size and form of the brand insertions... But if you're making the original you will have the same marks due using exactly the same mold is cheaper than crafting a sighly modified one.

I bought a pair of Reebock Nano 6 and another pair of Nano 8 and a couple of Adipowers in the last three years, with slight discounts in the Black Friday (which made me pay ~92 € instead of 130 € and ~144 € instead of 180 €). I known that those sneakers are produced at vastly lower prices in asian countries, which means they already have the tech to produce high quality at low cost (conditions for the workers is an entirely different matter). My guess is that in China, Taiwan and other places are now factories capable to craft high quality risers at low costs; those factories spent money in the tech to produce the product, and they do provide the required batches... But why they would stop the production once the demand from western companies falls? They still have a good product which can sell at low prices. Yes, the buyer will lack the same post-sell support, but if the tag price is low, a lot of people will risk and try.

Of course, if I'm wrong, the products will be knockoffs and their low quality will keep buyers away... I but I don't think that I'm wrong. My advice for western companies would be: keep your crafting at home, support your national work force and the buyers would support you. Outsource models and you will face unfair competence and will lost sales, which the low cost of overseas production wouldn't compensate.


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## Jim Casto Jr (Aug 20, 2002)

Best be careful. Last I heard (which is all you've got) is that Hoyt is beginning the process of monitoring and cataloging these false accusations with intentions of filing slander and defamation lawsuits.


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## Buran (Nov 26, 2018)

Again, I can be wrong. But is not my point.

My point is: the overseas manufacturers no longer have to bother in cloning western ILF risers for the market of traditional takedown bows, because they have the tech to do their own models (i.e.: Junxing F165). Is pretty much the same as is happening in the smartphone market with Huawei and Xiaomi vs Apple and Samsung.


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## Jim Casto Jr (Aug 20, 2002)

It doesn't matter to me what your point was; what you did was make a false accusation. There's a big difference between, " I heard yada, yada," and "To my knowledge yada, yada." You said you knew something you didn't. You can try to twist it any way you want but there's no need to try to defend the indefensible. 

I've said all I have to say about it. You might take the time to read the quote from the president of Hoyt I posted earlier.


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## hawkdriver55 (Sep 6, 2010)

Even the label cut outs are the same.


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## aluminated (Oct 10, 2017)

hawkdriver55 said:


> Even the label cut outs are the same.


It’s not that hard to steal a CNC program, and it’s cheaper to leave as-is than modify out a label position.

Either way, unless the design was produced by others with authorization, it’s theft of Hoyt’s intellectual property.
If anyone thinks that is okay just to save a little cash, I would not wish them ill. Instead I would wish they invent or create an amazing product that could set them up for life...and somebody else takes the idea and make it impossible for them to benefit at all from their own intellectual property.

What’s good for the goose is good for the gander.


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## roosiebull (Oct 3, 2010)

aluminated said:


> It’s not that hard to steal a CNC program, and it’s cheaper to leave as-is than modify out a label position.
> 
> Either way, unless the design was produced by others with authorization, it’s theft of Hoyt’s intellectual property.
> If anyone thinks that is okay just to save a little cash, I would not wish them ill. Instead I would wish they invent or create an amazing product that could set them up for life...and somebody else takes the idea and make it impossible for them to benefit at all from their own intellectual property.
> ...


I agree. 

it's funny how people will support this type of stuff to save a little money, then complain about this country, and how things are done.... we live among mass hypocrites. 

is the china riser machined or did they make a mold from a satori and cast the risers? regardless, there is no way I could even consider justifying a purchase like that, that completely supports the piracy of a USA design and product. i'm not saying I have never done it with any product, but certainly not knowingly or purposely


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## ghostgoblin22 (May 3, 2013)

when it comes to archery, and archery I encourage everyone to swallow their pride, if it saves a person a little bit of cash, do it, don't worry about the people who criticize it or look down on it because it is Chinese made, because chances are they just got done doing something from their house that was made in china.....I have two Chinese risers that perform just as good as hoyts and Lancasters risers that were a combined 700$ cheaper.....you do the math....


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## Bender (Dec 6, 2006)

Personally, what with my new business, and dealing with Patents etc, I myself won't knowingly support patent infringement.

Also due to my regular 9 to 5 job, it is an issue for me due to safety concerns for my customers and imported counterfeit parts that are seriously substandard and using them poses a safety issue all in their own right.


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## CAPTJJ (Dec 24, 2007)

Has nothing to do with pride, it is a matter of principles. We are not talking about buying products made in China, but counterfeit products made there. It is theft, plain and simple: theft of ideas and product design. They can sell a copied product much more cheaply when they don't have to pay for engineering and product development. Selling out this country and American companies and workers to save money, for a hobby... disgraceful.


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## roosiebull (Oct 3, 2010)

ghostgoblin22 said:


> when it comes to archery, and archery I encourage everyone to swallow their pride, if it saves a person a little bit of cash, do it, don't worry about the people who criticize it or look down on it because it is Chinese made, because chances are they just got done doing something from their house that was made in china.....I have two Chinese risers that perform just as good as hoyts and Lancasters risers that were a combined 700$ cheaper.....you do the math....


that is the exact type of "justification" I mentioned above. you should have said "swallow your pride for your country":wink: you can do as you will, but you should at least face what you are supporting, without some BS justification, because that's what it is.


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## ghostgoblin22 (May 3, 2013)

This is why many folks quit this website, complete utter ignorance 

I have 3 Hoyt satori set ups
4 bob lee recurves
And 2 kegan longbows 

I support quality and local businesses, but I also support folks who want to spend their money how they want too, the two Chinese ilf set ups I have are impressive, and literally cost 1/8th of my hoyts and bob lees, so again the bigotry of this website always shines, ridiculous 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## dahdav (Jul 13, 2013)

I hope Trump is able to work something out that provides our companies some authority to combat this sort of theft.


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## aluminated (Oct 10, 2017)

ghostgoblin22 said:


> This is why many folks quit this website, complete utter ignorance
> 
> I have 3 Hoyt satori set ups
> 4 bob lee recurves
> ...


Well, I think you either missed or intentionally ignored my point and that of others above. The objection is NOT to chinese-made goods, it is to use of others’ property without proper permission or recompense. To not acknowledge the difference in the two cases would be completely and utterly ignorant.
You bring the bigotry card to a place where it wasn’t before because you could not bother to read and understand. Good job. Troll elsewhere.


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## ghostgoblin22 (May 3, 2013)

aluminated said:


> Well, I think you either missed or intentionally ignored my point and that of others above. The objection is NOT to chinese-made goods, it is to use of others’ property without proper permission or recompense. To not acknowledge the difference in the two cases would be completely and utterly ignorant.
> You bring the bigotry card to a place where it wasn’t before because you could not bother to read and understand. Good job.


You completely don’t understand where I’m coming from or basically just naive, I read and understand your sentiment completely, I understand the infringement subject, but at the end of the day who cares, $700-800 compared to $150-200 is the main deal here , like I said I don’t blame anyone for buying a cheaper clone , just like in the golf business I used to be in, clone golf sales sold 3x as much as brand names club makers in the last 15 years


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## roosiebull (Oct 3, 2010)

ghostgoblin22 said:


> You completely don’t understand where I’m coming from or basically just naive, I read and understand your sentiment completely, I understand the infringement subject, but at the end of the day who cares, $700-800 compared to $150-200 is the main deal here , like I said I don’t blame anyone for buying a cheaper clone , just like in the golf business I used to be in, clone golf sales sold 3x as much as brand names club makers in the last 15 years


wow!! at the end of the day, who cares? seriously?


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## ghostgoblin22 (May 3, 2013)

Yeah who cares, I know I’m in the minority on this thread but in the real world theirs no justification between saving 500-600$, this is why I know about 20 folks have quit this site in the last 3 years, complete utter stupidity I can’t deal with anymore 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## aluminated (Oct 10, 2017)

roosiebull said:


> wow!! at the end of the day, who cares? seriously?


Yeah, I don’t think I’ll play his game anymore. He got the reaction he was obviously hoping for. That first one is on me. There won’t be a second.


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## ghostgoblin22 (May 3, 2013)




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## roosiebull (Oct 3, 2010)

ghostgoblin22 said:


> Yeah who cares, I know I’m in the minority on this thread but in the real world theirs no justification between saving 500-600$, this is why I know about 20 folks have quit this site in the last 3 years, complete utter stupidity I can’t deal with anymore
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


you'll be missed....

you should add your Chinese satori knockoff to your sig line if you do stick around:wink:


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## ghostgoblin22 (May 3, 2013)

roosiebull said:


> you'll be missed....
> 
> you should add your Chinese satori knockoff to your sig line if you do stick around:wink:


Complete utter stupidity 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## farmerbob1 (Jan 26, 2017)

Very Interesting. Lot's of fakes from China. Trijicon and Leupold put out alerts every year to help identify the fakes.


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## farmerbob1 (Jan 26, 2017)

It's never right to steal a design and sell it as a copy or as your own. Hoyt Puts millions into R&D


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## Hank D Thoreau (Dec 9, 2008)

Just to clarify, these are not fakes or counterfeit. They are copies. They do not claim to be Hoyt risers.

This is not like getting a fake Omega watch (I know a guy that bought one with an Ornega label on it).

The key is whether Hoyt sought any patent protection for the risers. Many companies do not because of the time and expense. They get what they can out of the current design and move to the next.

It would be nice to be able to control the copies more effectively. If you cannot recover the cost of engineering, and make an adequate return on investment, then innovation will stagnate.

There will be no incentive to develop new products.


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## aluminated (Oct 10, 2017)

Hank D Thoreau said:


> Just to clarify, these are not fakes or counterfeit. They are copies. They do not claim to be Hoyt risers.
> 
> This is not like getting a fake Omega watch (I know a guy that bought one with an Ornega label on it).
> 
> ...


In general, China does not recognize US (or any other) patents, so the point regarding filing for patent protection is pretty much moot.


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## Mike Lawless (Sep 6, 2017)

China factories seem to be very good at reverse engineering. They don't seem to need CAD plans. This kind of stuff is not isolated to the archery world. The high performance car and motorcycle world are full of it.

Most of my adult life, I've made every attempt to buy American or European stuff. For some things, it's simply impossible. I don't even mind buying Korean. Korean stuff is typical top quality. But I do want quality - even if it does come from China. China makes some good stuff for certain. However, I learned the lesson of buying cheap stuff long ago. I've regretted buying cheap many times. Many times it has cost me more over the long run. I have never EVER regretted buying quality, sometimes even at five times the price of the cheapest on some stuff with an exception. Sometimes I have purchased "quality" from an American company, thinking I was buying American made only to find a "made in China" label on it. That does bug me. That's still on me though. I ASS-umed when perhaps I should not have. "Caveat Emptor" is still in play.

We all work to earn our money. It's up to us as individuals to make our own personal buying decisions. If a person wants to help support intellectual theft by buying cheap Chinese clones...have at it. It's none of my business how another person chooses to spend their money.


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## Draven Olary (Jun 12, 2016)

Interesting debate, but gents, what are you saying about Win & Win Black wolf and Trad Tech Lobo risers? Left image is TT, right image is W&W.
Or just because they are sold for same price "no harm no fowl" applies?


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## Mike Lawless (Sep 6, 2017)

Draven Olary said:


> Interesting debate, but gents, what are you saying about Win & Win Black wolf and Trad Tech Lobo risers? Left image is TT, right image is W&W.
> Or just because they are sold for same price "no harm no fowl" applies?


It's interesting you brought up TradTech/Win&Win. 

In my statement above, the "Made in China" sting of my recent purchase of TradTech RC wood limbs is still fresh in my mind. At $400, "Made for TradTech by Win&Win", I was expecting a "Made in Korea" label at the very least. I was dismayed to see a Made in China label. I should have done a bit more research. They have a good reputation, and they are fine shooting limbs. But had I known they were made in China....for the price....I think I mighta gone another direction. Maybe spend a couple hundred more for the "Real Deal" or another quality brand, or saved a bit by buying another set of Galaxy limbs.....which have a made in Korea label for half the money.

I will definitely be more cautious in the future. This kinda stuff matters to me


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## Hank D Thoreau (Dec 9, 2008)

The question with the Tradtech versus the Win Win is whether the riser was licensed to be produced under the others label. I assume that Win Win is making it but the argument works both ways.

There are many cases where companies license another companies product and have their name put on it. These are business arrangements that are good for both companies since Tradtech and Win Win reach different consumer bases (with some overlap).

I have a set of PSE Pro Elite limbs which are just rebranded Win Win Winacts. Sometimes companies will provide specs and have someone else build it; and sometimes they just take something off the shelf and rebrand it.


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## Mike Lawless (Sep 6, 2017)

I really don't know the business arrangement Hank. The line in the product description said "Designed in the USA by Win&Win" is what sucked me in. The Made in China label on 'em when they arrived ticked me off a bit. They did come in Win&Win sleeves! So they got THAT going for them.

But, I'm shootin' with 'em anyway. I won't however, recommend that anyone else buy 'em.


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## Jim Casto Jr (Aug 20, 2002)

Draven Olary said:


> Interesting debate, but gents, what are you saying about Win & Win Black wolf and Trad Tech Lobo risers? Left image is TT, right image is W&W.
> Or just because they are sold for same price "no harm no fowl" applies?


Don't think that's what the debate is about at all. Tradtech bought/W&W sold the rights to reband and sell under that umbrella. Who do you think makes W-Mart "branded" cerial, peaches and ketchup?


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## Hank D Thoreau (Dec 9, 2008)

Where did you get the info that Tradtech bought Win Win. Win Win is a major player while Tradtech is a niche company.


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## jhinaz (Mar 1, 2003)

Hank D Thoreau said:


> Where did you get the info that Tradtech bought Win Win. Win Win is a major player while Tradtech is a niche company.


You missed the "/" Steve, and he's talking about 'rights' to reband and sell.. 
" Tradtech bought/W&W sold the rights to reband and sell under that umbrella."


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## Draven Olary (Jun 12, 2016)

Jim Casto Jr said:


> Don't think that's what the debate is about at all. Tradtech bought/W&W sold the rights to reband and sell under that umbrella.



Please post the link showing this. Otherwise is just hearsay that is denied on one side and not on the other.
And btw, post the link toward the information showing Hoyt is going after the TBow representatives. 
I am asking for full disclosure at the end, that will help everybody.


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## Jim Casto Jr (Aug 20, 2002)

Draven Olary said:


> Please post the link showing this. Otherwise is just hearsay that is denied on one side and not on the other.
> And btw, post the link toward the information showing Hoyt is going after the TBow representatives.
> I am asking for full disclosure at the end, that will help everybody.


Gee Whiz Draven! Everyone knows TradTech used to sell Samick Limbs and called them BlackMax-a mutal agreement; then, they made an arrangement with W&W to make their limbs and reband them as TradTech. That arrangement includes the Black Wolf riser. It's just like Cabelas and Browning bows a few years back. Browning made them, branded them Cabela's. It happens all the time. 

Rob Kaulfold owner of TradTech and LAS even came on here and discussed about Samick not being able to supply them and making an arrangement with W&W.
All that is much different than than stealing/copying.

.... and... I never said anything about Hoyt gong after the TBow representatives. I don't even know where that one came from.


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## Draven Olary (Jun 12, 2016)

Jim, in this topic you are the champion of integrity. If it is as you said - the Chinese copied beyond any reasonable doubt - please provide the info or at least show us that Hoyt is doing something about it.
What if TBow is a 3rd party product made for eastern side of the world with Hoyt blessing and receives royalties? Are we sure this is not an option? It can be bought in Australia from what I've seen. Do you think a supplier will not verify the source and the implications of selling a fake or worst?


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## Jim Casto Jr (Aug 20, 2002)

I'm not a champion of anything. I'll tell you what.... when you provide evidence that those copies of the Buffalo, and Satori risers, those copies of Rage broadheads and those copies of every friggin thing else made in China have Hoyt's (and others) blessings, get back to me.


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## Draven Olary (Jun 12, 2016)

Right.


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## Bender (Dec 6, 2006)

Draven Olary said:


> Do you think a supplier will not verify the source and the implications of selling a fake or worst?


I can't say for sure in regards to Archery in partcular, but I can assure that in my job it happens it happens Every. Single. Day. And has unequivocally killed people. Dead. On the spot. Never to rise again. And the manufacturer, then purchaser, and subsequent supplier didn't give a damn.


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## roosiebull (Oct 3, 2010)

Draven Olary said:


> Interesting debate, but gents, what are you saying about Win & Win Black wolf and Trad Tech Lobo risers? Left image is TT, right image is W&W.
> Or just because they are sold for same price "no harm no fowl" applies?


to me it's completely different, this is 2 companies who work with each other, so I would guess they have it all worked out. I think a better example to your argument would be Strickland Helix, and Kudu broadheads.... that is something that has created some internet controversy over the years.... but still nothing like a Chinese company building an exact replica of an American made product and selling it for dirt cheap.... almost seemingly in spite. 

has anyone seen "wish.com"? the website full of cheap Chinese stuff? if you want a ton of stuff for cheap, that's the place for you.... tons of stuff for free... just pay shipping, and shipping isn't much... there's something up there.

in this satori/knockoff thing, people will buy them, and come up with whatever BS they feel the need to so they can justify it, but I GUARANTEE they would be all up in arms crying like babies if they designed something with hard work in R&D that was successful and of great quality, someone blatantly stole their design without any R&D or effort, and started selling them for 1/6th of the price... I guarantee it.

most people will never worry about that, because it doesn't concern them, so they ignore that concept like it doesn't exist


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## roosiebull (Oct 3, 2010)

Draven Olary said:


> Jim, in this topic you are the champion of integrity. If it is as you said - the Chinese copied beyond any reasonable doubt - please provide the info or at least show us that Hoyt is doing something about it.
> What if TBow is a 3rd party product made for eastern side of the world with Hoyt blessing and receives royalties? Are we sure this is not an option? It can be bought in Australia from what I've seen. Do you think a supplier will not verify the source and the implications of selling a fake or worst?


you are playing the "devil's advocate" role like a boss!! haha


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