# semi-pro shootdown



## 3Dblackncamo (Jul 22, 2009)

ok, how do ya feel about a semi-pro shootdown at every shoot!


----------



## 3Dblackncamo (Jul 22, 2009)

I will start it off, I say yes and why havent they been doing it! should make some very interesting shooting


----------



## dingus250x (Mar 16, 2008)

i had to vote no, i kinda liked how they did it last year giving all the classes a chance in the shootdown every now and then


----------



## 3Dblackncamo (Jul 22, 2009)

dingus250x said:


> i had to vote no, i kinda liked how they did it last year giving all the classes a chance in the shootdown every now and then


just because semi-pro has a shootdown everytime dont mean the amateurs wont shoot too


----------



## Sentinalonfire (Apr 4, 2010)

shoulda already been doin it. great practice for the next step


----------



## 3rdplace (Jan 3, 2004)

It was done in ASA in the past. Early 2000's. Needs to come back!


----------



## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

More work effort and more time comes into play. By the time some get rested up or cleaned up after their shoots they don't have time to watch the shootoffs and isn't that why shoot offs came into being, for people to watch?


----------



## 3dshooter25 (Nov 17, 2008)

I wish they would do it. I like the shoot down format and would love the opportunity be in one in the ASA. Since limited pro is no more, there is a spot open for the shoot down IMO.


----------



## NC ladyarcher (Jan 26, 2009)

I voted no. At the classic and Texas events semi and the pro classes shoot at different times/days.


----------



## dw'struth (Mar 14, 2008)

Sure. I wish they had the resources to let them all shoot down. But, I do understand that would be kinda tough.


----------



## gud235 (Feb 7, 2004)

Yep. Except when the shootdown is on Sat.

Why is the shootdown on Sat in Texas anyway?


----------



## Double B (Feb 20, 2007)

3dshooter25 said:


> i wish they would do it. I like the shoot down format and would love the opportunity be in one in the asa. Since limited pro is no more, there is a spot open for the shoot down imo.


x2!


----------



## ABTABB (Apr 4, 2007)

I voted Yes... I don't shoot Semi but have a couple good Friends that do, and just enjoy watching the Shoot Down... Just slide it in the Limited Pro spots, and You're good to go!


----------



## Sentinalonfire (Apr 4, 2010)

thanks andy.. text me tomm when u make it to work sumtime please sir


----------



## asa_low12 (Mar 15, 2008)

I wish they had semi-pro shootdown.


----------



## TAYLOR CO. (Jun 9, 2005)

I voted yes. Just put it where Limited Pro was


----------



## damnyankee (Oct 4, 2002)

I say yes since it's actually a bigger class than any Pro Class.


----------



## field14 (May 21, 2002)

How's about a Shoot UP instead of a shoot down? Or better yet, if a "semi-pro" wants a shoot down...easily solved...shoot PRO and make it there...hehe.

That is to say, that the person with the highest score for the tournament SITS and is GUARANTEED no worse than 2nd place...and everyone else "shoots up" to get the opportunity to get to shoot against numero uno?

There is no reason I can see for the number one guy to NOT be guaranteed no worse than 2nd place as a result of the "shoot-UP" if they decide to have this type of situation.

OR....the "shoot down" you propose is a "secondary" money pot....and the winner of the tournament gets the main pot...and then those that make it shoot for this secondary pot...along with that winner.

Make everyone else shoot off to make it UP to try to take out the number one seed. He's already won the event the "real way"...so shouldn't lose out on a "shoot down" situation. They have done it this way for years in bowling tournaments...the number one man for the week of matches sits and can't do any worse than second place for the "finals"...and everyone else bowls off to reach the finals against the number one qualifier.

field14 (Tom D.)


----------



## gud235 (Feb 7, 2004)

Is that a yes or no field14?


----------



## field14 (May 21, 2002)

gud235 said:


> Is that a yes or no field14?


Everyone knows how I feel about "Semi-Pro"...so...it is a NO for "semi-pro" and the shoot down (or shoot up).

I sure would like to see the Number one person at the end of the "real" shoot guaranteed no worse than 2nd place, and everyone else has to shoot for that coveted #2 slot...to try to take out Number 1 in the "final match".

field14(Tom D.)


----------



## VeroShooter (Jul 14, 2005)

field14 said:


> Everyone knows how I feel about "Semi-Pro"...so...it is a NO for "semi-pro" and the shoot down (or shoot up).
> 
> I sure would like to see the Number one person at the end of the "real" shoot guaranteed no worse than 2nd place, and everyone else has to shoot for that coveted #2 slot...to try to take out Number 1 in the "final match".
> 
> field14(Tom D.)


Wow you must be famous if everyone knows how you feel about semi pro.


----------



## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

I think it would be a good idea.
DB


----------



## TAYLOR CO. (Jun 9, 2005)

VeroShooter said:


> Wow you must be famous if everyone knows how you feel about semi pro.


Yep, a legend...


----------



## J Whittington (Nov 13, 2009)

VeroShooter said:


> Wow you must be famous if everyone knows how you feel about semi pro.


You got that right! If ya an't 100% pro, Ole Tom turkey doesnt think ya should beable to win a dime,,and if he would tell us how he really feels, Ole Tom hates 3-D archery too.

Tom is an old school field archer/spot shooter. Good guy, but set in his ways!

Now Tom, don't get mad, you know im tellng the truth! Illinois is dang cold this time of year, come on down to fla. and shoot with us


----------



## TAYLOR CO. (Jun 9, 2005)

J Whittington said:


> You got that right! If ya an't 100% pro, Ole Tom turkey doesnt think ya should beable to win a dime,,and if he would tell us how he really feels, Ole Tom hates 3-D archery too.
> 
> Tom is an old school field archer/spot shooter. Good guy, but set in his ways!
> Now Tom, don't get mad, you know im tellng the truth! Illinois is dang cold this time of year, come on down to fla. and shoot with us


I think he's about ready to come around to shooting some 3-d.Hahahaha! I wondered why he was even offering any input into a "Chewy" thread..I have been reading his posts for yrs. Mr. Whittington and I agree w/your assessment all the way.


----------



## cenochs (May 2, 2007)

I agree with you 100% the archer that finishes the tournament 40 targets with the highest score is the winner! The other shooters that got beat during the tournament now get a second chance to win! Never has made since to me. I like your idea about a second pot of money for the shootdown everyone starts at 0 this would make it more exciting! I have always had the same feelings with Vegas last year I think braden G had shot clean and had the highest X count he was the winner in my eyes, but the other 14 or so guys got a second chance and someone else won! A TRUE shootdown only breaks ties it isn't meant to give someone a second chance. But with format the ASA is running I think every class should have a shootdown everyone deserves a second CHANCE




field14 said:


> How's about a Shoot UP instead of a shoot down? Or better yet, if a "semi-pro" wants a shoot down...easily solved...shoot PRO and make it there...hehe.
> 
> That is to say, that the person with the highest score for the tournament SITS and is GUARANTEED no worse than 2nd place...and everyone else "shoots up" to get the opportunity to get to shoot against numero uno?
> 
> ...


----------



## Sentinalonfire (Apr 4, 2010)

im fairly new to archerytalk and would like to know how u feel about semi-pro field14? they shouldnt win a dime?


----------



## 3Dblackncamo (Jul 22, 2009)

Sentinalonfire said:


> im fairly new to archerytalk and would like to know how u feel about semi-pro field14? they shouldnt win a dime?


he is a paper puncher


----------



## cenochs (May 2, 2007)

Nothing wrong with paper punching!


----------



## J Whittington (Nov 13, 2009)

TAYLOR CO. said:


> I think he's about ready to come around to shooting some 3-d.Hahahaha! I wondered why he was even offering any input into a "Chewy" thread..I have been reading his posts for yrs. Mr. Whittington and I agree w/your assessment all the way.


I'm not mr Whittington LOL my students call me Mr. W...but on the forum here,,,you can call me Jerry or as my wife Gert (aime) calls me...Cleatus!


----------



## J Whittington (Nov 13, 2009)

cenochs said:


> Nothing wrong with paper punching!


you be correct, I gotta get in better shape, about the 7 end I get tired.... but I proably shoot more poundage indoors than most...64ish... thats what I shoot for foam critters and a few more lbs for the furry antlered critters, skunks, possums, *****, coyotes, and other varmits!


----------



## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

cenochs said:


> I agree with you 100% the archer that finishes the tournament 40 targets with the highest score is the winner! The other shooters that got beat during the tournament now get a second chance to win! Never has made since to me. I like your idea about a second pot of money for the shootdown everyone starts at 0 this would make it more exciting! I have always had the same feelings with Vegas last year I think braden G had shot clean and had the highest X count he was the winner in my eyes, but the other 14 or so guys got a second chance and someone else won! A TRUE shootdown only breaks ties it isn't meant to give someone a second chance. But with format the ASA is running I think every class should have a shootdown everyone deserves a second CHANCE


Generally, yes, a second chance, but then you enter the event knowing there will be a shootdown, just like Braden G knew that the baby X doesn't count during the main event.
I don't agree with all classes having a Shoot Down. Of course this Post more than likely came into being because of the Post in the ASA forum of amatuers having a Shootdown. Being in the Super Senior class I have no desire for a Shootdown as I have nothing to prove. Said another way; Headin' for 62 I've placed and won my share and have the opinion of I either placed or won or I didn't.


----------



## field14 (May 21, 2002)

Sentinalonfire said:


> im fairly new to archerytalk and would like to know how u feel about semi-pro field14? they shouldnt win a dime?


My feelings are that there shouldn't be a "half-way house"....if you want to shoot for MONEY....then ante up and get off the porch all the way and run with the big dogs. Pro or Amateur...and nothing in between. NO to a "half-way house" for people to hide in; jump in and ante up.

However, it is pretty obvious that semi-pro might be here to stay...but that won't sway my opinion.

Putting MONEY down into the amateur ranks has created more problems that it has solved....now everyone wants a piece of the "money pot pie"...and this completely waters down the PRO PURSES...cuz the money from the SPONSORS has to be split up among amateurs and pros alike.


----------



## TAYLOR CO. (Jun 9, 2005)

field14 said:


> My feelings are that there shouldn't be a "half-way house"....if you want to shoot for MONEY....then ante up and get off the porch all the way and run with the big dogs. Pro or Amateur...and nothing in between. NO to a "half-way house" for people to hide in; jump in and ante up.
> 
> However, it is pretty obvious that semi-pro might be here to stay...but that won't sway my opinion.
> 
> Putting MONEY down into the amateur ranks has created more problems that it has solved....now everyone wants a piece of the "money pot pie"...and this completely waters down the PRO PURSES...cuz the money from the SPONSORS has to be split up among amateurs and pros alike.


I see some of your points of view. I see that it waters down the Pro Purses...But I can tell you this much, prices on archery accessories is and always has been absolutely insane in my opinion. Either, they were hiding it then when there wasn't any money in those amateur classes or they can afford it. I realize that winnings were a little more but come on.. I have been shooting archery for 32-yrs. and prices have always been high in relation to wages. I am not a Manufacturer but I do have a degree and have owned my own business for about 15-yrs...there is no way that you are going to tell me that there isn't huge profits for Manufacturers of archery accessories..My goodness look at a stabilizer it's a rod with a few components in it for dampening and they are $100-$300..1-dozen carbon arrows $60-$350 the list goes on and on.. I think that it's great that they make money don't get me wrong here..that's not my point.
I know that there should be a difference in Pro and Amateur classes and there is a difference in Paybacks and Entry Fees..What about the common man that cannot afford to enter Pro at these Tournaments and wants to shoot and challenge themselves? Are you saying there is no challenge in Semi-Pro? Ante up yourself and see!
For Example, the guy that Wins out of an Amateur class, say OpenB and wants a challenge..he skips up to Semi Pro instead of OpenA..In My Opinion that is commendable..You are saying skip all the way to Open Pro? Semi-Pro is the Platform to see if you got what it takes and if a sponsor will help pay your fee's or pay you out when you win for advertising their product in a positive way..I guess, I just have a different opinion than you do. But that's OK..You are a fellow archer and that means a lot.


----------



## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

I can't see the watering down of purses. I see as the shooters, amateurs on up, getting something back from what we paid into. We are in one the very few sports that support ourselves. Those of us that compete pay our archery club dues, pay our organization membership dues, pay our entry fees and buy our archery equipment.


----------



## 3Dblackncamo (Jul 22, 2009)

field14 said:


> My feelings are that there shouldn't be a "half-way house"....if you want to shoot for MONEY....then ante up and get off the porch all the way and run with the big dogs. Pro or Amateur...and nothing in between. NO to a "half-way house" for people to hide in; jump in and ante up.
> 
> However, it is pretty obvious that semi-pro might be here to stay...but that won't sway my opinion.
> 
> Putting MONEY down into the amateur ranks has created more problems that it has solved....now everyone wants a piece of the "money pot pie"...and this completely waters down the PRO PURSES...cuz the money from the SPONSORS has to be split up among amateurs and pros alike.


I can see your point, however there are not enough pros to keep anything and everything alive to include bows,arrows,releases, etc! amateurs like me pay to play i get nothing given to me, I buy my bows,arrows,releases,rest, and anything else that i get, i also pay my entry fees so if i could place you think i deserve no money! I also pay travel fees,gas,motel,food, on the other hand not all pros but most are sponsored therefore they pay for very little, just my .02 !


----------



## TAYLOR CO. (Jun 9, 2005)

After all it is Archery Shooters Association..Not Pro Archery Shooters Association P.A.S.A. ask Michael Braden what will grow our sport that we know and love..He's got a great idea in my opinion with the World Archery thing..get a little back that you paid so much into..

BRING ON THE SEMI-PRO SHOOTDOWNS!!


----------



## 1monstertriumph (Aug 17, 2010)

Sentinalonfire said:


> shoulda already been doin it. great practice for the next step


yea we want to watch matt win more!! good luck this year! your going to semi pro right??


----------



## Sentinalonfire (Apr 4, 2010)

yessir semi for me. gary and trey im glad yal see it the same way i do with the paying of amatuers lol


----------



## damnyankee (Oct 4, 2002)

Once again the great Field 14 speaks on a 3D thread....and of course he has all the answers.


----------



## treeman65 (Nov 24, 2005)

damnyankee said:


> Once again the great Field 14 speaks on a 3D thread....and of course he has all the answers.


we are so honored with his great words of wisdom.ukey:


----------



## TAYLOR CO. (Jun 9, 2005)

damnyankee said:


> Once again the great Field 14 speaks on a 3D thread....and of course he has all the answers.


I think he ought to come and shoot Semi-Pro and see if he can run with those "Big Dogs"..Or hell, why not just "ante-up and get out of the half way house and shoot Open Pro":blob1::laugh:

Oh yeah, they don't like judging ydg....Shoot the "Known 50"
Or better yet, Senior Pro.


----------



## J Whittington (Nov 13, 2009)

tom Im calling BS on your agruments.
1. You have no joes, you have no pros. Who in the world do you think is providing the money that fuels that keeps the archery orgs/and manufactors in business.
2. Tom surly your not saying that the money form the joe's entry fees be used to supplement pro pay outs? If so, you must have voted for Obama!
3.The payouts for the joes come from their entry fees. Yes, bowtech and Elite have a joe program, but that is their right to choose where to invest their $. They know whay you don't, that the joes are keeping us afloat!
4. mathews, hoyt, and pse, pay $ contengency for the pro class, and I am thankful. Look around the ranges tom and see what brand of bows the joes are shooting....like i said, the joes are paying they way for the pros! 

I am not anti pro! I competed in the pro class last year, and my wife has for the last 4-5 years. I do feel that the pro's should be earning a lot more cabbege ($) Than they are. So where can additional dollars come from? It will not because it can not come from the archery manufactors. The economy is hurting them too! Look at the price increase of bows. They must need the $ to justify the increase.
Bigger payouts for the pros will have to come form an outside source. I do believe that there is $ out there. There are rumors that sponsor ship has been offered in the past but the archery orgs refused to accept them because of personal conflict of intrest based on the products the potential sponsors sale.

Tom stop blaming the Joes, looking forward to seeing you at Fla to shoot some foam,,,


----------



## TAYLOR CO. (Jun 9, 2005)

J Whittington said:


> tom Im calling BS on your agruments.
> looking forward to seeing you at Fla to shoot some foam,,,


Me Too! Maybe you can watch the Semi-Pro Shootdown!:teeth:


----------



## cenochs (May 2, 2007)

The ASA does need to attract some BIG sponsor for better payouts! If the ASA could attract large sponsors like Budweiser Miller etc then I believe there should be no entry fee for Pros at the ProAms! But the catch would be that there would have to be qualifications and certain criteria met during the shooting year to stay Pro or you would be bumped out the following year! Same goes for becoming a Pro you would have to meet certain criteria to enter and be invited into the Pro Ranks! Then Archery would be interesting to sell other sponsors and TV! You would have new rookies every year and crown a rookie of the year you would have drama during the season watching which Pro was on the line and about to get cut! It just takes some people in charge to think long term and outside the norm! If it was to be run like this I would have no semi Pro just a Amateur Open Class for anyone that would like to try to become Pro!


----------



## TAYLOR CO. (Jun 9, 2005)

I like the way that ASA operates things just fine...But I would like to see a SEMI-PRO Shoot-Down/Shoot-Out..Simply put it in place of the Limited Pro that was dissolved last yr. Pretty cool for shoot-down's of various other classes at random. 
Cenochs, I think that is a great idea and should illicit a very good discussion on another thread. You've got some good idea's there. But, ASA has things set-up so that varying experience levels can compete with folks of their same experience.


----------



## field14 (May 21, 2002)

J Whittington said:


> tom Im calling BS on your agruments.
> 1. You have no joes, you have no pros. Who in the world do you think is providing the money that fuels that keeps the archery orgs/and manufactors in business.
> 2. Tom surly your not saying that the money form the joe's entry fees be used to supplement pro pay outs? If so, you must have voted for Obama!
> 3.The payouts for the joes come from their entry fees. Yes, bowtech and Elite have a joe program, but that is their right to choose where to invest their $. They know whay you don't, that the joes are keeping us afloat!
> ...


WHEre did I ever "Blame the Joes".

Your #1: That is obvious, and nobody understands this better than me. Been in the game for 50 years...and will tell you up front that EVERY TIME the "Pros" are favored over the Joes, or the "big guns" are favored over the up and coming shooters....that range FAILS and very quickly.

Your #2...You did NOT READ what I said about that money.....I said SPONSORS' MONEY is being watered down by the semi-pros, or worse yet EVERYONE getting MONEY out of any tournament....ENTRY FEES SHOULD go as part of the PURSE...and also, I might add that the ENTRY FEE MONEY (the part given for the purse) should stay in the DIVISION that the SHOOTER PAYING THE FEES is registering in. It should NOT ever be taken from that division so that the MEN'S PROS get more into their pot. SPONSORS' money? That should be divied up by % participation of the TOTAL PROs...that is to say, if 60% of ALL the "Pros" are FEMALE FREESTYLE...then by golly, 60% of the SPONSOR money should go to FEMALE FREESTYLE and NOT, as in the case of a lot of tournaments, some of it taken to MEN'S Freestyle.

BUT....by having the "semi-pro" or heaven forbid others shooting for money...then the PRO PURSE has got to be "watered down" because the SPONSORS' money is limited...so to pay the others besides the REAL PROS...you have to take money from theirs to have it to give to the others. Either ANTE UP AND SHOOT FULL PRO...or shoot amateur.

#3. The JOES are NOT paying the way for the Pros...they simply are THINKING that if they shoot what the Pros shoot, then they become PROS too (or they BUY their scores, ha). Under no circumstances should ANY of the entry fees from the JOES be taken and put into the PRO pots! NEVER! But, unfortunately, that is what does go on in some instances; and it isn't right. In addition, PART of the "Pro's" registration fees should be paying for the administrative costs, targets, advertising of the event etc. Let's say that the Reg fee for a "Joe" is $35 and the registration fee for a PRO is $100. Then, it SHOULD be that $35 of the PRO's registration fee goes to the "administrative costs" and $65 goes to the PRO PURSE. The PRO is a "registered shooter" and therefore is the SAME with regard to "administrative costs" (yes, that does mean the PRO foots part of the bill for the awards). The PROS should NOT have 80% of their "registration fee" going to the PRO PURSE if the other shooters are paying more than what 20% of the pros are paying for their total fee, IMHO.

The PROS would be getting more cabbage without the "semi-pro" division AND then the other shooters getting money too....UNLESS the ONLY money going to semi-pro and the others is ONLY from registration fees and NOT sponsor's contributions (which is NOT normally the case). Anytime you open up MONEY towards the "amateurs" or create semi-pro...you pull away from the PRO POT if you use sponsor contributions to anything other than the PRO pot.

For the others...IF I should ever decide to shoot for MONEY...it would be FULL PRO and not a half-way house that I obviously vociferously OPPOSE. Since I'm a Senior, it would be SENIOR PRO, and MAYBE Known 50. But I like shooting more than one arrow every 25 minutes, so it isn't likely to happen, ha. I would get off the porch and run with the BIG DOGS and not go a half-way house that I don't believe in. Sure, I'd take my lickin', but would keep on a tickin'.

If I come to Florida in Feb or March...which I do most years...it is for BICYCLING TOURS and not for shooting arrows, ha.


----------



## asa_low12 (Mar 15, 2008)

Field14, ASA and local is the only 3d I do. In ASA, the amateur purse comes from the entry fee's. The more shooters, the more money in purse. I'm sure you know this already. What I don't get from your post is that the sponsor money is being watered down by the amateur's. Isn't the only amateur money strictly from entry fees and figured with a formula right out of the asa book? It doesn't seem to me that we are getting any "sponsor money". Same for pro too though, other than contingency. So what point am I missing?

Are you saying that the amateur money needs to go towards the range and targets, so that the pro's get all of the sponsor money?

I couldn't shoot if it wasn't for amateur payback. I don't have money to do as I please with. Me going to an ASA means the fridge is bare til the next paycheck after I get back. Do I starve? NO. But it is definetly a lot less comfortable than just not shooting. If you took away the money that I sometimes win back, I really don't think I would go. If I am lucky enough to get a good job when I get out of school, then yea I would start going again payback or not. 

No payback=don't go. Payback=work very hard and eat, sleep, and breathe archery to try to be able to win my money back so I can go. And that's on the local level too. If there's not a chance i'm gonna win my 40 or 50 bucks back that it takes to drive 2 hours to a shoot and pay top gun entry fee and buy a meal, then i'm not going. I have enough plastic trophies. Lots of times I don't win my money back, and I suffer for it. But that's the risk I take to shoot archery tournaments.


----------



## ttripp (Jun 7, 2004)

field14 said:


> My feelings are that there shouldn't be a "half-way house"....if you want to shoot for MONEY....then ante up and get off the porch all the way and run with the big dogs. Pro or Amateur...and nothing in between. NO to a "half-way house" for people to hide in; jump in and ante up.
> 
> However, it is pretty obvious that semi-pro might be here to stay...but that won't sway my opinion.
> 
> Putting MONEY down into the amateur ranks has created more problems that it has solved....now everyone wants a piece of the "money pot pie"...and this completely waters down the PRO PURSES...cuz the money from the SPONSORS has to be split up among amateurs and pros alike.


OK, heres my opinion on your opinion.
you don't shoot 3-d archery with the ASA, therefor your opinion doesn't matter. when you pay a membership fee like we do, when you pay an entry fee like we do and attend some of our shoots then perhaps you may then have the right to speak on behalf of what you think should be done in ASA 3-d archery.

till then please take every opportunity you get to stay in your close minded little world because you don't know anything about ours. as long as i have been on archerytalk i have read your post ranting about 3-d archery and it never changes, you dont support us or our sport so why do you continue to involve yourself in our conversations?

btw, DO YOU NOT FEEL AS THOUGH BOWHUNTER FREESTYLE SHOOTERS SHOULD GET PAID IN VEGAS????


----------



## ttripp (Jun 7, 2004)

asa_low12 said:


> Field14, ASA and local is the only 3d I do. In ASA, the amateur purse comes from the entry fee's. The more shooters, the more money in purse. I'm sure you know this already. What I don't get from your post is that the sponsor money is being watered down by the amateur's. Isn't the only amateur money strictly from entry fees and figured with a formula right out of the asa book? It doesn't seem to me that we are getting any "sponsor money". Same for pro too though, other than contingency. So what point am I missing?


cody, you and I both know that because we compete and know how things are run on the asa tour.
he doesnt know that and never will because he doesnt compete there or know anything about asa other than what he chooses to spout off about.

look up his real name, do a search of it on the asa website and let me know how many times you see him listed anywhere??


----------



## field14 (May 21, 2002)

I believe they have a CHAMPIONSHIP Bowhunter Freestyle in Vegas...so YES. Vegas is a totally "different animal" and always has been. 

However, there isn't a "half-way house" of "semi-pro" at Vegas...you either shoot CHAMPIONSHIP and ante up, or you shoot "open"(or Flights) and shoot mixed in with everyone else by division....and score. And YES, I'm well aware that Vegas is "money" for every flight, and also that some "sandbagging" and gamesmanship goes on every year...but hey, it is VEGAS and it is built on "gambling." At least, however they don't water down the CHAMPIONSHIP purse by paying "semi-championship"....ha.

No closed minded little world....I was shooting 3-D long, long before the ASA was ever thought of. And don't think for a minute that "I know NOTHING about your little world of 3-D archery."

It is a free country and I have the RIGHT to my opinion....and if you don't like my OPINIONS...then put me on your ignore list. I don't exclude YOU from "field archery" discussions, and don't have the right to do so...therefore, you have NO right to exclude me from expressing my opinions either. 'Nuf said.

field14 (Tom D.)


----------



## asa_low12 (Mar 15, 2008)

I'm not trying to go against field14. I've read his post for years. I just want my questions answered by him becuase I don't see what he's getting at, exactly like my post says.


----------



## field14 (May 21, 2002)

ttripp said:


> cody, you and I both know that because we compete and know how things are run on the asa tour.
> he doesnt know that and never will because he doesnt compete there or know anything about asa other than what he chooses to spout off about.
> 
> look up his real name, do a search of it on the asa website and let me know how many times you see him listed anywhere??


Yes, I'm aware of that, even tho you might think I"m not....but can you really tell me, in your vast knowledge, HOW MUCH of the SPONSOR'S contribution to the money purse....goes to SEMI-PRO? That is where I'm coming from on "watering down" the PRO PURSE.

If the only money going to semi-pro is from entry fees...AND as long as the registration fee is split between purse contributions and "admin fees", then I'm probably barking up the wrong tree. 
BUT...if 80% or more of the "reg fee" for semi-pro is going to their purse...then something isn't right. If they are also taking "sponsors' contribution money" and using it in SEMI-PRO...then that is where the "watering down" of the PRO PURSE that I'm talking abaout is coming from.
For example, let's say the registration fee for "semi-pro" is $75. The reg. fee for an "amateur" is $25. If $60 or more of that $75 is going to the "semi-pro" purse, then they are getting off without paying FULL REGISTRATION......IMHO.....of their $75 reg. fee, $25 goes to admin fees (targets, advertising, awards, scorecards, etc), and $50 should go to the semi-pro purse FOR THE DIVISION that the registrant is paying for. If said registrant is a lady...then NONE of that $50 should go to the MENS' divisions.

You have the PROS complaining somewhat about purses being down...no wonder. Then you now have "semi-pros" that don't think payouts are enough...and then you have "amateurs" wanting MORE payouts????? My opinion? Simple....and I've said it before PRO or AMATEUR...and if you want MONEY, then ante up and shoot PRO and don't expect money bailout for an already depleted fund.

field14 (Tom D.)


----------



## ttripp (Jun 7, 2004)

field14 said:


> I believe they have a CHAMPIONSHIP Bowhunter Freestyle in Vegas...so YES. Vegas is a totally "different animal" and always has been.
> 
> However, there isn't a "half-way house" of "semi-pro" at Vegas...you either shoot CHAMPIONSHIP and ante up, or you shoot "open"(or Flights) and shoot mixed in with everyone else by division....and score. And YES, I'm well aware that Vegas is "money" for every flight, and also that some "sandbagging" and gamesmanship goes on every year...but hey, it is VEGAS and it is built on "gambling." At least, however they don't water down the CHAMPIONSHIP purse by paying "semi-championship"....ha.
> 
> ...


i have every right to point out every time you start spouting off about something you do not know anything about and i will do so because a very large portion of us are just flat out tired of hearing it from you for so damn long.

you arent a member of asa, you dont know how they do things and you are so close minded that you cant see when those of us that are very close to that org. try to explain it. you simply just dont get the fact that many of us simply are tired of hearing you dude.

either step up, pay to join us in our org. or shut up about how it is run.
if you arent a member then you have no right whatsover to complain about how things are done.


----------



## ttripp (Jun 7, 2004)

ok dude, lets look at this another way???

I am a k50 shooter, on average it will cost me $500 for a weekend at an asa tournament. by your estimation I am not a pro shooter so I shouldnt get paid.

I am also an amateur auto racer that races at several local short tracks with a car that cost many thousands of dollars and travel expenses and operating expenses etc.
But if i go by your logic on this, I dont race in the NASCAR SPRINT CUP SERIES so therefor i shouldnt be getting paid when i compete???

think about how idiotic that sounds???


----------



## field14 (May 21, 2002)

You are mixing apples and oranges. NASCAR and archery aren't even CLOSE in "revenue" or mass of competitors, or obviously in EXPENSES either.

Until they put MONEY into the "game" for amateur archers...we had very little, if any of the complaining about payouts and sponsorships, and all that tripe, because pretty much the only way to get "sponsored" was to be a PRO, ante up and SHOOT PRO, or shoot for trophies.

Now, it is to the point that everyone you see on a range...is "shooting for" a company, or many companies. Their shirts almost look as "decorated" as a NASCAR, but really....how many of those wearing all that "shirt jewelry" are REALLY sponsored?

Seems to me that since nearly everyone you see on ASA and even NFAA ranges anymore are "sponsored" or shooting for someone...that the archery companies certainly cannot be SELLING PRODUCT...they obviously are GIVING IT AWAY to every shooter out there; or so it seems.

The "shooting for" and "sponsored by"...is KILLING the PRO purses and hurting the PRO payouts something terrible. No wonder the purses are "down"...too many people are playing for the same pie from too many different angles....and the AMATEURS have no business competing for MONEY anyways.

Worst thing ever started was paying AMATEURS money, IMHO...and you'll never get me to change my mind-set on it.

Let's see $500 a weekend for a HOBBBY, am I corrrect? And you are pretty much demanding to be PAID for your hobby of archery, am I correct?

Let's see $500 for a weekend where for the REAL competition, you shoot only 40 shots? That is a cost to you of $500 divided by 40 or $12.50 per arrow shot??? 

You spend 7 hours or more shooting those 40 shots...so 420 minutes for 40 shots = 10.5 minutes for each shot. Oh, I forgot...TIME limits aren't enforced except by the group peers. 

Or....$500 paid out to spend 7 hours on a range or you PAY $71.40 per hour for the "privilege" of shooting on those ranges?

Yes, I can see where you figure this is pretty darned expensive...BUT.....to expect to be "paid" just cuz you come to the event is ludicrous...akin to the entitlement generations' mind-set that if they "try out" for the team...then they are "entitled" to make the team. Or...if I 'compete' then I'd darned sure get PAID to compete or I'll pee and moan until I do get PAID.

Sorry, I don't buy being PAID to show up and expect to "recoup" what I've spent to get there from entitlement. Hobbies are just that, hobbies, and to expect PAYMENT for a hobby just doesn't mesh.

If you want PAYMENT...then again, ANTE UP and SHOOT PRO.

It doesn't sound idiotic when you consider the definition of AMATEUR: 

ama·teur (am′ə c̸hər, -c̸ho̵or′; -ə tʉr′, -ə tər)

noun

*a person who engages in some art, science, sport, etc. for the pleasure of it rather than for money; a nonprofessional*; specif., an athlete who is variously forbidden by rule to profit from athletic activity
a person who does something without professional skill
a person who is somewhat unskillful

Now, I'll have to agree that by current rule in ASA...you aren't 'variously forbidden by rule to PROFIT from athletic activity', but the rest of the definition is self-evident.
If you are expecting to PROFIT from your "amateur racing car" then you are NOT an "amateur" and shouldn't be competing there either.

Another somwhat different definition, but meaing pretty much the same:
A person who engages in an art, science, study, or athletic activity as a pastime rather than as a profession.
2. Sports An athlete who has never accepted money, or who accepts money under restrictions specified by a regulatory body, for participating in a competition.
3. One lacking the skill of a professional, as in an art.


field14 (Tom D.)


----------



## cenochs (May 2, 2007)

Thanks Taylor county I got another Idea for you also how about at a ASA Pro Am after day 1 of shooting and the scores are turned in all shooters are re-grouped according to score and the Top scores will shoot together on day 2 to increase the pressure a little! And in the Pro Class men and women let the last four targets they shot be in front of a audience! Have a live scoreboard at the final 4 targets so you would know which archer is leading and what the others must do on the final 4 targets to win! Have the final targets in front of bleachers and a large enough area for people to bring their own seat! You could also include other classes in this format it would just have to be organized by time. The classes I would like to see for men would be:

Bowhunter novice
Bowhunter amateur
Bowhunter Pro

Open Novice
Open Amateur
Open Pro

Known Amateur
Known Pro


----------



## field14 (May 21, 2002)

Might add that the fish are biting really well the past couple of days here on the 3-D forum of AT. Might even have landed a couple of "lunkers", ha.

Bait of the day? Rather small "fingerlings" with a sinker.

Enjoy!

field14 (Tom D.)


----------



## ABTABB (Apr 4, 2007)

Field, with all due respect... I'm guesing From Your posts, You don't shoot ASA...So, If You don't Participate, how can You form an Opinion...? It's not like Anyone (on this thread) is arguing to change whatever Venue You choose to shoot... I have Never shot an IBO event or any kind of Field archery (although I do plan to this Year, if I can find one) So I have No opinion on how they're run, nor should I... I have a lot of Respect for the Pro's in Our sport, even know a few Personally... But if They didn't shoot in the ASA it certainly wouldn't stop Me from going, on the other hand, if they changed the Format or PayOut, it might...

I believe it's why the ASA is so popular (aside from being run by Great People, and the Events are so well organized) And honestly can't see it changing to Favor the small percentage of Pro's that might feel the way You Do..? The Shoot-Down is part of the Format, and judging from the crowds at the Shoot-Downs, Most like it... Everybody that participates in a class that goes to it, knows it up front... It's not like They tell the Leader after the fact "Oh, By the way..." I guess I just don't understand Your argument of trying to Change how This game is played...?


----------



## reylamb (Feb 5, 2003)

ttripp said:


> ok dude, lets look at this another way???
> 
> I am a k50 shooter, on average it will cost me $500 for a weekend at an asa tournament. by your estimation I am not a pro shooter so I shouldnt get paid.
> 
> ...


I can't believe I am even remotely defending Field here but.......................guys spend thousands qualifying for an going to the US Amateur Championship in Golf. And all they win is a little bowl. Amateurs in golf can not win anything, or else they are no longer amateurs.......

of course my offer to field man from a few years ago still stands...........show up for the IL ASA and I will pay your entry fee........otherwise, you just speak of that which you do not know.


----------



## cenochs (May 2, 2007)

I think the larger problem is how the Pros in 3D Archery are perceived! If you think about anyone can sign up and be a Pro in 3D archery how many other sports can you just pay your way in to say your a Pro. The sport would get more respect and more sponsors if it was not for this little glitch! This is my personal opinion but I compete to try to be a Pro one day and if that means shoot amateur classes with no monetary awards then I have no problem with that. If I pay 100$ to shoot in a ProAM then I see it as using that 100$ to compete against good shooters and give me better experience to advance not try to win $100 and break even. I believe the ProAms aren't for your occasional archer. The ASA could tweak a few things and take competitive 3D archery to another level. If the ASA had large sponsors and payouts for the Pros and a new format on how to become and stay a Pro I think more archers would take 3D more seriously and gain more young memebers. Wouldn't it be nice to see a Professional 3D Archer on the cover of sports illustrated becuase he just broke the 1 million dollar mark for winning in a year


----------



## 3Dblackncamo (Jul 22, 2009)

J Whittington said:


> tom Im calling BS on your agruments.
> 1. You have no joes, you have no pros. Who in the world do you think is providing the money that fuels that keeps the archery orgs/and manufactors in business.
> 2. Tom surly your not saying that the money form the joe's entry fees be used to supplement pro pay outs? If so, you must have voted for Obama!
> 3.The payouts for the joes come from their entry fees. Yes, bowtech and Elite have a joe program, but that is their right to choose where to invest their $. They know whay you don't, that the joes are keeping us afloat!
> ...


well said jerry


----------



## TAYLOR CO. (Jun 9, 2005)

reylamb said:


> I can't believe I am even remotely defending Field here but.......................guys spend thousands qualifying for an going to the US Amateur Championship in Golf. And all they win is a little bowl. Amateurs in golf can not win anything, or else they are no longer amateurs.......
> 
> of course my offer to field man from a few years ago still stands...........show up for the IL ASA and I will pay your entry fee........otherwise, you just speak of that which you do not know.


There it is field14..Show up and lets see.


----------



## TAYLOR CO. (Jun 9, 2005)

cenochs said:


> Thanks Taylor county I got another Idea for you also how about at a ASA Pro Am after day 1 of shooting and the scores are turned in all shooters are re-grouped according to score and the Top scores will shoot together on day 2 to increase the pressure a little! And in the Pro Class men and women let the last four targets they shot be in front of a audience! Have a live scoreboard at the final 4 targets so you would know which archer is leading and what the others must do on the final 4 targets to win! Have the final targets in front of bleachers and a large enough area for people to bring their own seat! You could also include other classes in this format it would just have to be organized by time. The classes I would like to see for men would be:
> 
> Bowhunter novice
> Bowhunter amateur
> ...


Good Ideas! I like it..


----------



## TAYLOR CO. (Jun 9, 2005)

field14, you admitted it yourself, you have no idea where the $$$ comes from..SOOOO SHUT up already..I say Shut-up or Put Up! This is a thread about:
SEMI-PRO SHOOTDOWNS/SHOOT-OFFS!!!
THANK GOODNESS THEY'LL BE PAYOUTS!! Thank you ASA!! Archery Shooters Association..NOT PRO ARCHERY SHOOTERS ASSOCIATION


----------



## shootist (Aug 28, 2003)

In Field's defense, he commented on semi pro shootdown and somebody asked him his opinion. Some of you need to calm your aggressions I think.


----------



## 3Dblackncamo (Jul 22, 2009)

all asa shooters go to the asa forum they have a poll for semi-pro shootdown!


----------



## J Whittington (Nov 13, 2009)

BUT....by having the "semi-pro" or heaven forbid others shooting for money...then the PRO PURSE has got to be "watered down" because the SPONSORS' money is limited...so to pay the others besides the REAL PROS...you have to take money from theirs to have it to give to the others. Either ANTE UP AND SHOOT FULL PRO...or shoot amateur.

My name is Jethro, i don't get it:set1_thinking::dontknow:

Now, it is to the point that everyone you see on a range...is "shooting for" a company, or many companies. Their shirts almost look as "decorated" as a NASCAR, but really....how many of those wearing all that "shirt jewelry" are REALLY sponsored?
except for gold tip, I shoot for no one. I paid my 250 at every asa last year. no help, no bow! PS> I don't have a problem with the joes getting $

tom your argument are weak and makes no common sense to me or anyone else...

Why complain about the amatuer/semi payouts...*they are shooting for the money that they have put in the pot** pros are shooting for the Money they put in the pot, plus bigger contengency checks.

How is the pro purse being watered down by having a semi pro class? What sponsor money is being paid to the joes/semis ?*The "shooting for" and "sponsored by"...is KILLING the PRO purses and hurting the PRO payouts something terrible. No wonder the purses are "down"...too many people are playing for the same pie from too many different angles....and the AMATEURS have no business competing for MONEY anyways. "field 14" please explain this,... and *if the amaturs should not be eleigable for $$$ than answer my previous question. 

What should be done with the amatuer money?*

Now I don't agree with field 14 but its America, He has a right to his opinion, and we have the right to agree or disagree. Field had been in archery longer than most of us on AT have been living.... and hats off to him, despite having some health/injury issues, hes still shooting his bow


----------



## ttripp (Jun 7, 2004)

so we need to calm our aggressions huh???

i dont like traditional archery(yes i said that out loud) but i dont go on threads about their end of the sport and constantly complain about how they do things.

it has been years now of him pointing out how he thinks everything about ASA 3-d archery is so wrong AND YET BY HIS OWN ADMISSION HE DOESN'T PLAY THAT GAME, HAS NO ASA RECORDS AT ALL SO THAT MEANS EVERYTHING HE SPOUTS IS BASED ON HEARSAY AND NO PERSONAL EXPERIENCE. 

I personally find him offensive and consider his constant ranting for years now as harassment and am just sick of hearing it from him.


----------



## 3Dblackncamo (Jul 22, 2009)

ttripp said:


> so we need to calm our aggressions huh???
> 
> i dont like traditional archery(yes i said that out loud) but i dont go on threads about their end of the sport and constantly complain about how they do things.
> 
> ...


x2!


----------



## field14 (May 21, 2002)

ttripp said:


> so we need to calm our aggressions huh???
> 
> i dont like traditional archery(yes i said that out loud) but i dont go on threads about their end of the sport and constantly complain about how they do things.
> 
> ...


Simple solution for YOU....Put me on your IGNORE LIST....Cuz I'll continue to express my opinions, and frankly, I couldn't care less what YOU think either.

Oh, but how WRONG you are indeed about me "never" competing in ASA or IBO...WRONGO MOOSE FACE YOU ARE! NO, I haven't been to the "huge ASA events yuns all have down in the SE...but...I have attended and shot in several ASA formatted and ASA events in the Midwest and actually when they were starting to TRY to get ASA going out West...there too.
So DO NOT TELL ME I've never done the ASA stint...cuz you are DEAD WRONG.

Hearsay my arse, too, young man....ANYONE that follows archery keeps a pulse on aspects of the game by checking things out from people's opinions, other people's experiences, and FELLOW SHOOTERS' COMMENTS after they've attended said events. Call it "Pre-scouting" if you will. You can learn a LOT about the game from the outside before "diving into it" and getting burned.
Any "potential top shooter" in any sport is going to "scout out" the surroundings, the rules, the environment long BEFORE They dive in with both feet....to not do it that way is suicide, IMHO. But then again, you don't have a clue what I'm about...other than your opinion...and frankly, I'm bored with this lack of discussion on your part, bossing me around, and being crass about it.

I find you OFFENSIVE and Crass too, but I don't go around piping off directly into your face like you are here...nor do I deny you your OPINION or say I'm sick of your opinion. You keep reading my "stuff", taking the bait, hook line and sinker...and "think" that you know me and where I REALLY come from....problem is, you obviously don't know the bait from the real thing, and still haven't learned, haha on you.
Again....don't like my opinions? Put me on your IGNORE LIST...it is only a few key strokes. BUT never tell me I cannot express them or tell me I have NO personal experience...because you are WRONG on all counts. Basically, FIDGAS and SIIYE!
field14 (Tom D.)


----------



## field14 (May 21, 2002)

J Whittington said:


> BUT....by having the "semi-pro" or heaven forbid others shooting for money...then the PRO PURSE has got to be "watered down" because the SPONSORS' money is limited...so to pay the others besides the REAL PROS...you have to take money from theirs to have it to give to the others. Either ANTE UP AND SHOOT FULL PRO...or shoot amateur.
> 
> My name is Jethro, i don't get it:set1_thinking::dontknow:
> 
> ...


Simple answer to the above has been posted...the DEFINITION of an "amateur" as I posted two of.

To me, if you are receiving ANYTHING for a discount, or for free from an archery related sector...then you are NOT amateur...you are PRO and by golly, you should be required to ante up and pay the PRO registration fees and compete with them...Since nearly everyone you talk to "shoots for" these manufacturers, then obviously, the manufacturers can't be making ANY MONEY off the "Target side" of the game...because it is apparent that nearly ALL of the competitors in ASA, IBO, NFAA are getting their stuff at a huge discount, or for FREE...so Yes, the purses are watered down and over-loaded by "WANNABEE PROS" that are supposedly getting all their stuff for discounts for for FREE....SO...how can the manuf give any more to the purses when all the equipment being used has taken up the profits????

So all of you are already PAID and now you want MORE money and freebies?
New bait of the day is "RAW BUCK-TAILS" with silver spinners, hahahaha. Hook, line, and small sinkers.... Gonna get me some real lunkers, I can sense it, hahaha. 

Even tho I haven't stirred a pot in quite sometime, I'm already bored with this little game here, so I think I will go out for wiser "lunkers" on another lake somewhere.

field14


----------



## HokieArcher (Mar 13, 2009)

It really stinks that this thread got in the wrong direction and now has become a pissing match. Lets try to get it back on track. 

Back to the original subject....I voted yes for the Semi-Pro shoot down. I think it would be an awesome experience for these guys and I would definitely stick around to watch. I guess the only question I have left is how many shooters? The pros have 5 in the shoot down but last year the amateurs only had 3.


----------



## 3Dblackncamo (Jul 22, 2009)

HokieArcher said:


> It really stinks that this thread got in the wrong direction and now has become a pissing match. Lets try to get it back on track.
> 
> Back to the original subject....I voted yes for the Semi-Pro shoot down. I think it would be an awesome experience for these guys and I would definitely stick around to watch. I guess the only question I have left is how many shooters? The pros have 5 in the shoot down but last year the amateurs only had 3.


well let the semi-pro guys vote on it


----------



## kaj4 (Mar 27, 2010)

i voted yes also. But wow, My legs are so hot from my labtop from reading this thread


----------



## Sentinalonfire (Apr 4, 2010)

if u do 3, atleast u couldnt lose the podium that way.


----------



## treeman65 (Nov 24, 2005)

field14 said:


> Simple solution for YOU....Put me on your IGNORE LIST....Cuz I'll continue to express my opinions, and frankly, I couldn't care less what YOU think either.
> 
> Oh, but how WRONG you are indeed about me "never" competing in ASA or IBO...WRONGO MOOSE FACE YOU ARE! NO, I haven't been to the "huge ASA events yuns all have down in the SE...but...I have attended and shot in several ASA formatted and ASA events in the Midwest and actually when they were starting to TRY to get ASA going out West...there too.
> So DO NOT TELL ME I've never done the ASA stint...cuz you are DEAD WRONG.
> ...


Seeing we all are post are opinions Here is mine you are a ludicrious smuck to start crap on the 3d forum where you are afraid to compete.You just name the shoot IBO or ASA semi pro class and I will pay yours and my entry fee I will also put up a $100 that you are to scared to show up. So go fish with that bait.


----------



## treeman65 (Nov 24, 2005)

I say yes let us have a shoot down.


----------



## asa_low12 (Mar 15, 2008)

field14 said:


> Simple answer to the above has been posted...the DEFINITION of an "amateur" as I posted two of.
> 
> To me, if you are receiving ANYTHING for a discount, or for free from an archery related sector...then you are NOT amateur...you are PRO and by golly, you should be required to ante up and pay the PRO registration fees and compete with them...Since nearly everyone you talk to "shoots for" these manufacturers, then obviously, the manufacturers can't be making ANY MONEY off the "Target side" of the game...because it is apparent that nearly ALL of the competitors in ASA, IBO, NFAA are getting their stuff at a huge discount, or for FREE...so Yes, the purses are watered down and over-loaded by "WANNABEE PROS" that are supposedly getting all their stuff for discounts for for FREE....SO...how can the manuf give any more to the purses when all the equipment being used has taken up the profits????
> 
> ...


Politically correct dictionary term of an amateur- one who doesn't recieve money or free products that has to do with said sport or hobby. ASA correct definition of an amateur-one who doesn't recieve more than $2000 in sponsor money


----------



## 3Dblackncamo (Jul 22, 2009)

I say everyone on AT can vote, but when it comes down to it, the guys who shoot semi-pro are the ones that have a voice that counts, after all they pay there entry fees and shoot that class and the rest of us can watch the shootdown-----as for field several guys on here offered to pay your enrty fees so we will see you in newberry feb 4-6 2011


----------



## Sentinalonfire (Apr 4, 2010)

I was fortunate enough to get the oppurtunitty to make the shootdown in open b last year at the illinois asa pro-am and I am here too tell u that it was awesome..... I cant wait too do it again one day hopefully against levi jeff darrin griggs and brooks that would be awesome...


----------



## ttripp (Jun 7, 2004)

field14 said:


> Simple solution for YOU....Put me on your IGNORE LIST....Cuz I'll continue to express my opinions, and frankly, I couldn't care less what YOU think either.
> 
> Oh, but how WRONG you are indeed about me "never" competing in ASA or IBO...WRONGO MOOSE FACE YOU ARE! NO, I haven't been to the "huge ASA events yuns all have down in the SE...but...I have attended and shot in several ASA formatted and ASA events in the Midwest and actually when they were starting to TRY to get ASA going out West...there too.
> So DO NOT TELL ME I've never done the ASA stint...cuz you are DEAD WRONG.
> ...


ok, i am a moose face,lol..... good one, i have been called worse by better.
if i am so wrong here is your chance to prove me wrong in a public forum with actual facts.
no one has been discussing IBO here at all, we have been discussing ASA 3-d archery and they have a website that you can go and check for any person on simply by typing in their name and yours doesn't exist to them.
until you actually show me an asa number or posted results in any class from any ACTUAL ASA SANCTIONED EVENT then everything you say about asa is simply hearsay based on your pre scouting.
you are what is wrong with archery today, old school wont change, stick in the mud that is a has been and left behind. 
you once had a great deal of respect on this website and now you have reduced yourself to the crazy old man sitting at the gas station screeming about how you know how to fix everything in the world.
if you really do know how to fix it?? here is a novel idea, get off your soap box and start a tour where only the pro's get paid and let me know how that works out for you when you go broke trying to support it.

yes i take the bait, every time from some old guy that maybe once upon a time could shoot and had something to offer but now gets all his joy from harassing people on a website and yet AT lets you continue to do it for so many years without recourse.


----------



## treeman65 (Nov 24, 2005)

ttripp said:


> ok, i am a moose face,lol..... good one, i have been called worse by better.
> if i am so wrong here is your chance to prove me wrong in a public forum with actual facts.
> no one has been discussing IBO here at all, we have been discussing ASA 3-d archery and they have a website that you can go and check for any person on simply by typing in their name and yours doesn't exist to them.
> until you actually show me an asa number or posted results in any class from any ACTUAL ASA SANCTIONED EVENT then everything you say about asa is simply hearsay based on your pre scouting.
> ...


He needs to experience the smackdown with us.I bet he could not hang as a matter of fact I bet he would leave in tears.


----------



## Deer Slayer I (Feb 21, 2010)

is this the same tom d that use to shoot at skyline archery in ny


----------



## shootist (Aug 28, 2003)

It would actually be very hard to prove whether somebody has ever shot an ASA Pro Am. I won my first ASA shoot in 1996 (Young Adult class, FL ASA). I shot most of the tournaments from 1996 on, yet 2003 is the earliest ASA's database has me listed.


----------



## asa_low12 (Mar 15, 2008)

shootist said:


> It would actually be very hard to prove whether somebody has ever shot an ASA Pro Am. I won my first ASA shoot in 1996 (Young Adult class, FL ASA). I shot most of the tournaments from 1996 on, yet 2003 is the earliest ASA's database has me listed.


My 3 top 3's aren't on there. One in 01 and two in 02-then I quit for 6 years. I wish they would update farther back.


----------



## TRIPLETT (Jan 21, 2004)

I don't post very often but i just can't help myself on this one. This started out as " should the semi pros
have a shootoff and went the way of should the amateurs get paid?
I vote yes for a shootoff. These are the archers who are trying to make that final step so why shouldn't
they. It brings more attention to them and their sponsors and the people love to watch it. helps get
them ready for the big time.
Now on to the next part.yes i know this is not what was started but like i said, i can't help myself.
If the org. is set up so the money going into the class is separate from the entry fee's than yes the amateurs should be able to shoot for money. Why not? It's their money.
I've been reading on here that this takes money away from the Pro's. Come on people (field) it doesn't
hurt the Pro's at all. Now you will say that's not what i ment, i was talking about sponsors money, right!
Last i heard manufactors set aside a budget for the year on how much they are going to spend on contengency, sponsorships, ect. Last i heard one of the biggest doesn't come close to spending it each year which means they are getting the biggest bang for their buck.
There is no way thst sponsorships and discounts to the amateurs is hurting the pro's. To begin with the amateurs are more visible at the shoots " In their shooter shirts" than the pro's and the manufactors know this.
There's what? 2,000--3,000 tourament archers in this country. There's 3-4 million bowhunters in this country. How many card carring pro's do you think we have? 200-300, i wouldn't say very many more if that many. The amateurs or joe's or nobodys if you want to call us that is who keeps the manufactors in business and they know this. Without the "joes" their wouldn't be any big shoots because there wouldn't be anybody there to shoot.
The manufactors know if they give a few sponsorships and discounts and some contengency to the "joes' the joes and their non tournament shooting buddies "who hunt" is what is going to keep them in business. The Pro's are due everthing they get and more, i agree with that, but to say the amateurs are taking money away from them is the biggest bunch of crap i've heard in a while. We keep comparing archery with other sports. Archery is not like other sports. This is our sport, spots, 3D, hunting, so lets build our sport and quit worring about the others. Just remember, if you start taking away from the "Joes" there won't be anybody to support the shoots we go to. The manufactors know this, that's why you see so many "Joes" wearing shooter shirts 
TRIPLETT


----------



## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

Trip, you're pretty close. Some 3 million archers and some 60,000 belonging to the bigger organizations last I inquired (ArrowSport, division of the ATA). Your 200 - 300 would be closer if you'd designate location. So many out west and so many in the midwest and so many from the east. Of course many of the Pros are multi organization members. So you can't check records without having all present to check off the actual Pro count. Okay, a Pro belongs to the NFAA, IBO, and the ASA, but he or she can only be counted as 1.

Of course, someone complained or there was a error made in Archery News Now. The article of how much Levi Morgan knocked down in 4 events has been removed. He said he knocked down $72,000 in 6 weeks in 4 events. Okay, I ain't knocking this one bit. More power to him. Same way with one of the greatest 3D shooters ever, Jeff Hopkins. He was once noted as the first archer to surpass $1,000,000 in winnings. Heck fire, I hope Jeff is around to collect another million.....


----------



## J Whittington (Nov 13, 2009)

Tom, you still didn't answer my question on what to do with the amateur entry fees since you went "Webster" on us.
If joes shouldn't win $ then what should bed done with the $ they pay?


----------



## TRIPLETT (Jan 21, 2004)

Sonny
Your right, i think i'm close. Last i heard there was around 4.3 million bowhunters, archers in the country. As for my number of card carring pro's i get it from the shoots jill & I attend. If you look at the IBO, ASA, NFAA and the number of people reg. as Pro's i think my number is high. The indoor nationals in Ky 2010 had the highest number at 122. That is all Pro classes, men & momen combined.I think i would be right to say that the Ky shoot has more crossover shooters "Pro's" than about any shoot. You add up the ones in the country that only shoot spots or 3d or Field you might add another 100 but i doubt it.
The 60,000 belonging to the bigger orgs should be about right but you also have to remember that this number includes family members some of which do not shoot. So that number goes down a lot when you
take out the non shooters.
I would like to see more Pro's make the kind of money Levi & Jeff have made and some day it might happen but the only way it will happen is to get more shooters and not piss off the ones we have.
A lot of people talk about growing archery big enough to get TV coverage, big sponsors ect.
I hope someday that happens but i have my doubts. The reason i say this is because archery is not a spectators sport like nascar, football, baseball ect.
Archery has been around for 1,000s of years, it's roots are in hunting and war, sad to say but true.
The bow & arrow was built to be a weapon for hunting and war, this is how a lot of people precive it,
again sad but true.
The reason i say this is because spectators do not support archery the participants do. If we want to 
grow this sport( from within our ranks) we need to do all we can, semi pro shootoffs, Joe's wearing shooter shirts, whatever. The manufactors know they are working within a bubble and they are trying to get the biggest share and expand it as much as possible. Their money will come from the 4-5 million archers, hunters in this country so they give a little back to try to expand it, it works. You can see that at any shoot by the amount of Joe's wearing shooter shirts. Field, lets give the little guy his due because without him we would all still be in the back yaer shooting at hay bails 
TRIPLETT


----------



## Rush (May 16, 2005)

I voted yes for the Semi-Pro shootdown. I was a Semi-Pro shooter that is now turning Pro. I think it would be a great benefit for the guys to go thru this to prepare being Pros! If you want to compare this to other sports, they have Minor league or developemental leagues, and that is exactly what semi-pro is. Besides, everyone that is a great shot might not have an extra 250 to pay entry fees. Most companies when you go pro still make you earn a spot to get paid to shoot! Seriously field14, we're suppose to be working together to promote our sport! I don't know you, but I know one thing. Your actions are splitting our little community once again, and we should embrace what each other shoots whether you like it or not and promote it for the good of the sport. Not pick and bash on other people! Like I said, I'm a Pro shooter now, and I can tell you Manufacturers money is not being right. Mr. Triplett is right. They do have budgets set back, and don't use all of it! So, no Semi-Pro's and Joes don't water down the money! However, I sport is supported by the Joes and if that keeps the Joes happy, then by all means do it. They are the heart beat of our sport. If it wasn't for the "Joes" out there shooting, we wouldn't be able to do what we are today. Sometimes I think a lot of poeple for get what we shoot for. We shoot because we love to shoot. I don't care if you make 100K or nothing, that is why you shoot. That is the one thing we all have in common. There are way more poeple as Triplett said that hunt, pros and joes alike! I would suggest reading Tripletts post again, he covered a lot of good points, and I agree with him. I don't like getting into this type of stuff, but this one in my opinion has gotten out of hand and I had to post my thoughts. There are a lot of poeple and children out there that look up to everyone of us here posting with the possible interest of shooting! How can we get them into our sport and become life long members when instead of supporting fellow archers, some people are trying to cut them off at the knees. So back to the orginal again, a yes for Semi-Pro shootdowns and for the off track, if ameatures want to make money, it's there entry NOT the Pros so good for them. I hope everyone has a productive and fun archery season!


----------



## Rush (May 16, 2005)

TRIPLETT said:


> Sonny
> Your right, i think i'm close. Last i heard there was around 4.3 million bowhunters, archers in the country. As for my number of card carring pro's i get it from the shoots jill & I attend. If you look at the IBO, ASA, NFAA and the number of people reg. as Pro's i think my number is high. The indoor nationals in Ky 2010 had the highest number at 122. That is all Pro classes, men & momen combined.I think i would be right to say that the Ky shoot has more crossover shooters "Pro's" than about any shoot. You add up the ones in the country that only shoot spots or 3d or Field you might add another 100 but i doubt it.
> The 60,000 belonging to the bigger orgs should be about right but you also have to remember that this number includes family members some of which do not shoot. So that number goes down a lot when you
> take out the non shooters.
> ...


 Well put Triplett!


----------



## damnyankee (Oct 4, 2002)

Deer Slayer he's the same guy from Skyline...Field 14 the expert of all...what a joke.

Field 14 get off my obstacle....oh and take your pills


----------



## field14 (May 21, 2002)

J Whittington said:


> Tom, you still didn't answer my question on what to do with the amateur entry fees since you went "Webster" on us.
> If joes shouldn't win $ then what should bed done with the $ they pay?


The same as what has always been done with the Joes' (and supposed to be done with PART of the PROS) registration fees....Administrative costs to pay for the targets (and the PROS should have that exact same amount deducted from their total fee that goes to administrative costs, too...not 80% "pay back"...the PROS shoot up targets, use scorecards, use the ranges, range preparation, bales replenishment, markers, flyers, advertising, etc, just like the Joes). So...if for example the "Joes' fees" are $35 for the tournament registration and the PROS is $100 for registration...then....IMHO....$35 of that $100 goes in the regular administrative fees for targets, range use, advertising, etc etc.; leaving $65 that goes into the PRO PURSE for said registrants shooting style...and NOT to any other shooting style.

SO...by having amateurs shooting for AWARDS and NOT money...their registration fees are obviously used to pay for administrative costs of running the tournament, purchasing targets, range preparation, AWARDS (and not some tiny 30 cent medal either), scorecards, mailings, flyer prep, announcements, and tons of other stuff that goes on behind the scenes. I still feel that PROS shoot for MONEY, and amateurs shoot for awards, but could support them shooting for MERCHANDISE...but that is marginal and leaves another can of worms open for discussion.

By paying MONEY out to amateurs, those administrative costs still have to be PAID by the host club and organization...so in order to do that REGISTRATION FEES RISE to cover the extra MONEY...that an "amateur" shouldn't be shooting for anyways. What happens here is that if there is ANY money from Manufacturers, local vendors, retailers, etc...then if the amateurs are also shooting for MONEY...they are going to want a piece of the "sponsorship money" as well...and this balloons into arguments about how much of the "contributed sponsors' money" went to the PROS and WHY didn't the amateurs get a LARGER piece of that money cuz they have more shooters than the PROS....so...then the PROS' purse obviously would get watered down.

So, you see, the JOES can indeed drive out the PROS...or the PROS quit coming because the AMATEURS are shooting for MONEY...and are perceived as watering down the PRO PURSES...

Anytime you have manufacturers contributing MONEY, or local vendors contributing MONEY...it really gets to be a balywix in "opening the books to scrutiny" and then fending off the above argument about MORE shooters in AMATEUR so the AMATEUR should be getting MORE of the "contributed POT" PLUS their amount of entry fee above and beyond the administrative portion of their registration fee.

You don't have this problem IF....CHAMPIONSHIP/PRO is for MONEY, and Amateur/Open is for AWARDS (or potentiall merchandise), AND said awards aren't some cheapo special trinket worth $1 or something (give DECENT awards!).
I've been running and organizing leagues and tournaments since the late 1960's....Trust me when I tell you that I have seen tournaments where there has beent he arguement that the Amateurs that were shooting for money had a higher percentage of participants so were DEMANDING that they get that higher percentages of the "contributed (donated) MONEY PURSE" than the PROS (who also shot for MONEY). Been there and seen it happen, and it gets ugly quick.

We don't even wanna talk about the arguments and burrs under the saddle when someone that shot PRO/MONEY in the past, "steps down" to shoot "open" after looking at the list of registrants and sees that he/she doesn't stand a snowball's chance. Call that one "escape and evasion" if you will. haha.

Skyline did have its "heyday" on that 42 target field course that they had there. But the old people got older and tired of the hassles, and couldn't handle the load anymore. I left in 1994 due to a job transfer, and the last time I was on the course would have been 2001, and it was down to 14 usable targets...on a restricted basis. From what I hear, it is "dead" and the land being used by one person pretty much exclusively. I also heard that sadly, ZIPPO's field course is also no longer there either????

field14

field14 (Tom D.)


----------



## field14 (May 21, 2002)

damnyankee said:


> Deer Slayer he's the same guy from Skyline...Field 14 the expert of all...what a joke.
> 
> Field 14 get off my obstacle....oh and take your pills


Are you still this surly? Or did YOU forget to take YOUR pills. I didn't insult you, but perhaps your mind-set is directly related to your AT "handle" and in proportion to how crass you are being...over a HOBBY.... that "joke" may be on you like stink on cow manure....you never know how "things" can come back to haunt you sometime...remember, what goes around eventually comes around. I sure don't remember your name...but...who knows, perhaps we met and perhaps we didn't....but with you being from Groton, I seriously doubt it.


----------



## 3rdplace (Jan 3, 2004)

NFAA uses the format you suggest Tom but all we hear is complaining about the membership numbers dwindling. Perhaps it is time for paybacks to amateurs there so the numbers might rise again. It seems to work really well for the 3D organizations.


----------



## field14 (May 21, 2002)

3rdplace said:


> NFAA uses the format you suggest Tom but all we hear is complaining about the membership numbers dwindling. Perhaps it is time for paybacks to amateurs there so the numbers might rise again. It seems to work really well for the 3D organizations.


MONEY in the "amateur" divisions/classes of the NFAA is NOT the answer....we'd end up having the same grumbles and complaints about inadequate pay backs and the "host clubs" sucking up all the 'money' and making too much, and "where exactly did the "donated money pot funds come from and where did they go?"...and WHY, since more amateurs shot (for MONEY) didn't the AMATEURS get the lions' share of that "donated money purse"? Read my post above again about the headaches and chaos that can/would be caused with regard to sponsorship monies and their distribution if JOES and PROS were ALL shooting for the money. You think there is griping now about low payouts and "where did all the money go?"....OMG....throw another 4-6 (or more) "classes" or divisions into the money frey...and all heck would be breaking loose.

The Joes indeed do support the majority of the load of ALL archery associations, and without the Joes, no ranges, no tournaments. I don't think you'll grow anything but heartaches if "amateurs" and all adult styles and divisions are shooting for money...it would be just like awards are now...way too many people getting "money"...and the entire system of payouts watered down to the point where often times already, the "amateur awards" are...in the toilet with cheap trinkets that nobody really wants anyways.

Tom D. didn't "suggest" the format that NFAA uses...Tom D. as a multiple time tournament director simply USES the NFAA payout guidelines because they are fair and equitable. The one 'guideline' Tom D. refuses to use, however is to FLIGHT the "Championship or MONEY" shooters....NO WAY should someone shooting for example a 678 take home MONEY when someone else that shot a 680 doesn't get a dime because he/she was at the bottom of the flight past the payout cut for that flight! NOT RIGHT, and IMHO, shouldn't happen.

MOST real "PROS" would much prefer to pay deeper and make sure that people with the higher scores get paid...and people with the lower scores do NOT get paid. SOME, however, are leaning towards a WINNER TAKE ALL...but that is a small minority of them, and it would never float more than once or twice at a major tournament...and then all you would have would be a very small handfull of those that are shooting "hot" right now and think they could take home the big kahuna. We already see, in a lot of cases, people "pulling out" of tournaments, or even worse, showing up, looking at the list, and leaving because they know they don't stand a prayer. This even happens in the Joes' divisions as well. 

In addition, you would also have "PROS" (or wannabee pros) bailing out of the PRO division and coming over to open/amateur because they would know they have a way better chance of cashing in on some MONEY in the amateur division. They'd play both ends against the middle, checking out who's who in the zoo, and then making their decision based upon who shows or doesn't show. Been there and seen that little game being played too.

field14


----------



## ttripp (Jun 7, 2004)

3rdplace said:


> NFAA uses the format you suggest Tom but all we hear is complaining about the membership numbers dwindling. Perhaps it is time for paybacks to amateurs there so the numbers might rise again. It seems to work really well for the 3D organizations.


mike, he is an archery god, he has all the answers, he is after all FIELD 14 and is the guru of all things archery.

we will never get through to him nor will he ever change us.

the difference between us and him is we are actually around people like Mike Tyrell who signs the checks and seems to think things are doing all right and have added more amateur classes.

if he was honest about his beliefs then he would believe the following

amateur poker players should play for fun and the money should go to the house, i mean the house has expenses

a minor league ball club should play for the love of the game and all purses involved should go to the league for running the show then they can send money to the pro's

amateur surfers should never get paid for the surfing tournaments they compete in

amateur racers should never compete for money, i mean they arent pros and sponsors like SUNOCO/GOOD YEAR/HOOSIER/ (YOU GET MY DRIFT) could be putting that money into the pro's instead of watering down the purse for the big show.


see, he doesnt get the point that 3-d archery will not survive doing it his way, because the 1000 amateur shooters that will be in gainesville florida in 3 weeks wouldnt be there and without them there your grand total of less than 125 pro shooters wouldnt draw enough of a crowd to pay the lease on the venue, much less anything else.

but what do I know, I'm just an old mooseface ASA 3-d shooter from the sticks, who found out running our fairly large shoots here that if there was no money paid out then there was no shooters at the next one. people have expenses, and it is discretionary income that we use to compete with, but we deserve the chance to win some of it back and he will never see that.


----------



## field14 (May 21, 2002)

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the ASA is a FOR PROFIT organization...or should I say BUSINESS, is it not?

MOST archery clubs are NON PROFIT organizations...but try to have a big treasury...for what? Who knows...but the chimes always ring, we MADE x-amount of MONEY from our last shoot.

The NFAA (excepting the WAF part of it) is NON profit. I don't know for sure about IBO.

The saying goes, "Money is the root of all evil." YOU are not in the game of archery for a HOBBY, I construe from your postings you are out to TAKE as much as you can get from it, and when you tire of it...go on to something else. ALL TAKE AND NO GIVE. That's fine, I guess, since it obviously tickles your fancy and trips your trigger.

When it comes to archery MONEY is going to be its undoing, especially if all the amateur classes are also competing for MONEY.

People today don't understand the concept of a HOBBY or amateurism...and like you said above...I won't change your minds and you certainly aren't going to change mine with regard to "semi-pro" or "AMATEURS" shooting for MONEY. So, we are right back to where we started and after your verbal abuses of me...nothing is settled nor will it ever be settled. Today's people are "FOR ME", "I, I and I", and "I am entitled to....". They want a piece of the pie without having to really pay for it or work for it. Afterall, in today's society, EVERYONE MAKES THE TEAM...even if they can't "play the game" for squat. Wouldn't want to hurt their itty bitty feewings.

Heck, why don't we PAY the CUBS too....what the heck?

Yep, for many of you the TRUTH HURTS...and to quote Jack Nicholson in "A Few Brave Men"...."You can't HANDLE the TRUTH."

You are going to do it your way, and I'm going to do it my way, plain and simple. You want your cake and to eat it too...and sooner or later that cake is going to lose its sweetness.

Heck, why don't you approach a couple, or even several prospective sponsors and tell them that you are willing to SELL THEM SHIRT SPACE BY THE SQUARE INCH....you know, "Hey there, I'll put your logo on my shirt if you will pay me $100 a square inch." YES....I have actually witnessed that approach by a wannabee, not only was I nearly floored, but so were the TWO prospective sponsors standing there side by side when this "wannabee" actually had the unmitigated gall to approach them in this manner! Wasn't the first time, probably won't be the last either.


----------



## ttripp (Jun 7, 2004)

see, thats where your wrong and so ignorant you cant see it.

the only piece of the pie these amateurs are asking for is THE ONE THEY PAID FOR, nothing more and nothing less.

i dont care who you pay out of your pie, but it shouldnt be any of your concern who gets a piece of the pie THAT WE PAY FOR.


----------



## 3rdplace (Jan 3, 2004)

So a for profit organization can pay their expenses, Pro's and Amateurs but a not for profit cannot pay for anything but the Pro's? Now I agree with the flights statement but you would have to create additional class levels or suffer a great many losses in participation. Might even need to add a Semi Pro. I'm sorry but I think that there are more than 2 levels of ability and to create and maintain participants we need to find and determine those levels.


----------



## Sentinalonfire (Apr 4, 2010)

im sorry guys but this guy has me never wanting to sign on to AT again.. i mean why are you posting anything here field14 im not trying to be disrespectful, but really u have no horse in this race????? this was started as a thread for us SEMI-PRO'S and now its just people ranting on about sumthing ur not gonna change our minds about... if not for the paybacks to amatuers i would definately not have been able to do what i accomplished last year... this isnt 1963, gas is'nt 12 cents a gallon anymore field. motels are'nt $19.99 a week anymore.


----------



## Droptine (Feb 10, 2003)

I shoot in semi class and if it wasnt for winning some money I wouldnt be able to make it to maybe a couple shoots a year. The only money going to payout comes out of entry fee. Every year I've shot in semi I have came out even or a liitle ahead. kinda nice to travel all over and compete and feel like you havent spent your years savings. Aso for the ones saying that you just pay your money and you can be a pro isnt thinking right and will never probably shoot pro. Everyone pays there own way at least your first year! My goal in semi was to win my way out of semi and I missed it my first year just a little and I made it the second. Let me say be careful what you wish for!! I did get a top five my fourth shoot in pro but I needed another top ten to get my entry fees paid by a sponsor. The next year wasnt good and I think my shooting went in the dumps worrying about the money I was spending and trying to get a couple top tens weighed heavy on my mind. I think semi is a great class for the above average archer that can compete against the next to best 3d shooters there is. I feel on my best day I can compete with the big boys but those days are far and few between and I work consruction and 50-60 hours a week dont leave enough practice time, not for me anyway. So for now I will stay in semi and someday if I get it figured out a little more I might try it again before I get to old. I do agree that everyone wearing all the patches and sponsors wrote all over them is B.S. The companys dont have to give anything away now just offer a tiny discount and a free patch and half the people are walking around looking like a moving billboard.


----------



## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

Tom, order a ASA Packet and read. Doesn't cost anything. Class sheet, sheet for what goes where, and a payout sheet may correct you a bit. Like other organizations you'll find Pros and other classes are limited on "baling out."


----------



## treeman65 (Nov 24, 2005)

Droptine said:


> I shoot in semi class and if it wasnt for winning some money I wouldnt be able to make it to maybe a couple shoots a year. The only money going to payout comes out of entry fee. Every year I've shot in semi I have came out even or a liitle ahead. kinda nice to travel all over and compete and feel like you havent spent your years savings. Aso for the ones saying that you just pay your money and you can be a pro isnt thinking right and will never probably shoot pro. Everyone pays there own way at least your first year! My goal in semi was to win my way out of semi and I missed it my first year just a little and I made it the second. Let me say be careful what you wish for!! I did get a top five my fourth shoot in pro but I needed another top ten to get my entry fees paid by a sponsor. The next year wasnt good and I think my shooting went in the dumps worrying about the money I was spending and trying to get a couple top tens weighed heavy on my mind. I think semi is a great class for the above average archer that can compete against the next to best 3d shooters there is. I feel on my best day I can compete with the big boys but those days are far and few between and I work consruction and 50-60 hours a week dont leave enough practice time, not for me anyway. So for now I will stay in semi and someday if I get it figured out a little more I might try it again before I get to old. I do agree that everyone wearing all the patches and sponsors wrote all over them is B.S. The companys dont have to give anything away now just offer a tiny discount and a free patch and half the people are walking around looking like a moving billboard.


 I dont agree with you on this.You make top 5 in pro after winning out of semi but are back shooting semi?
Well at least some of us move up and dont back down just to win money. I moved from open c to semi and a buddy moved from open b to k50 it will be a cold day in ..ll before we move back to win money.This is as bad as the guys in mbo that have been there forever but are consistently in the top 10 that is a joke.I can name 4 guys of right now that do that right now.


----------



## bclowman (Aug 2, 2009)

Ok lets take a look. IBO....dieing, NFAA....not hitting on much either, NAA.....pretty much doesn't exist for the majority of us. ASA.....ALIVE AND WELL. I guess they must be doing something right.


----------



## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

treeman65 said:


> I dont agree with you on this.You make top 5 in pro after winning out of semi but are back shooting semi?
> Well at least some of us move up and dont back down just to win money. I moved from open c to semi and a buddy moved from open b to k50 it will be a cold day in ..ll before we move back to win money.This is as bad as the guys in mbo that have been there forever but are consistently in the top 10 that is a joke.I can name 4 guys of right now that do that right now.


You know I got quite a few friends who have shot semi and have won there ways to pro ranks. Never heard one yet feel the move down rule for pro circuit bad! So now winning is a joke! Just go shoot! ASA doing alot right and very successful. You would rather these guys quite archery rather than move back to an affordable class. $250.00 entry fees aren't cheap and not many will win on a Pro level period!
DB


----------



## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

bclowman said:


> Ok lets take a look. IBO....dieing, NFAA....not hitting on much either, NAA.....pretty much doesn't exist for the majority of us. ASA.....ALIVE AND WELL. I guess they must be doing something right.


Have you been to a NFAA indoor event! I wouldnt say NFAA dieing. Lines are full this week at Iowa and there going to have to expand next year to a larger place.
DB


----------



## bclowman (Aug 2, 2009)

Daniel Boone said:


> Have you been to a NFAA indoor event! I wouldnt say NFAA dieing. Lines are full this week at Iowa and there going to have to expand next year to a larger place.
> DB


I'm an NFAA fan so don't get me wrong and yes i've been to our state nfaa events. Haven't made it to any of the national events though. I love the spots and as you can see in my avatar there is an NFAA emblem in it. As far as on our state level the NFAA/SCAA state events have very low participation. I understand there are alot of folks that show up to indoor nats and vegas and I would love to go to both but the fact is the NFAA membership is down per the nfaa's own words. 3D archery rules the roost. Proof is when the NFAA events overlap an ASA. Where do the pros go? To shoot the ASA event. Where is the most contigency placed? 3D with maybe vegas being an exception, i don't know. Like i said i'm not knocking the NFAA at all and would love to see it grow and will do my part to help it grow so don't get me wrong. It takes all of it (every orginization) to keep archery as a sport alive. I just hope when can get it to the level here as it is in europe where you see car manufacturer banners swinging displaying sponsorship and professional crews filming the events with stands full of people watching.


----------



## Droptine (Feb 10, 2003)

treeman65 said:


> I dont agree with you on this.You make top 5 in pro after winning out of semi but are back shooting semi?
> Well at least some of us move up and dont back down just to win money. I moved from open c to semi and a buddy moved from open b to k50 it will be a cold day in ..ll before we move back to win money.This is as bad as the guys in mbo that have been there forever but are consistently in the top 10 that is a joke.I can name 4 guys of right now that do that right now.


Treeman you might think im a joke! I shot pro two years spending over $500 a shoot and sometimes more. I have never won a tournament in semi pro. So I could have stayed in pro and made two ibo's a year, but now I can go to several shoots. Let me tell you I would like to be shooting pro even as much as you would like for me to be in pro. Even though you think I should stay pro the truth is I never should have moved up in the first place. At that time I really liked shooting asa and didnt want to sit out and there was a part of me that really wanted to give it a try. The good thing is this year you wont have to worry about me bumping you down a spot becuase Im only shooting one or two asa's. If I do make some I hope to see ya in the shootdown!!!:mg:


----------



## cenochs (May 2, 2007)

I think that if a archer shoots in Pro Division there should be no entry fee! But the catch would be you would have to meet certain criteria to be a Pro not just decide on your own when you think you should be a Pro! Also you must meet certain criteria to stay Pro and if you don't you get bumped out at the end of the year! Sponsors money should be used toward the Pro Purse not the Amateurs! The amateur payback should come out of there entry fee for each class.


----------



## field14 (May 21, 2002)

Daniel Boone said:


> Have you been to a NFAA indoor event! I wouldnt say NFAA dieing. Lines are full this week at Iowa and there going to have to expand next year to a larger place.
> DB


People are flocking to the NFAA Indoor Nationals...to shoot for AWARDS, and no mention of MONEY to the "amateur" (open) Divisions. Same with Presley's, Lancasters, Iowa Pro-Am. . If you want to shoot for "MONEY", then you are required to ante up and register to shoot against the big dogs; plain and simple. But a registered "amateur" is not going to take home pay check.


Presley's "filled up" the 2nd of November and remained that way. When an opening came up, it was quickly scarfed up. Less than 46% registered in the CHAMPIONSHIP, but in the "Amateur" there was no griping or complaining or asking for AMATEURS to shoot for "MONEY", because they "have expenses" too. Iowa Filled up...yet NONE of the "amateur" divisions shoot for any sort of MONEY. Lancaster's is exceptionally successful. Yet, the ONLY one that allows "amateurs" to shoot for MONEY in their "Amateur" (Non CHAMPIONSHIP) is VEGAS...and that is traditional. 
OUTDOORS, the NFAA has been hurting for years. Don't say the NAA is Dead...far from it. Their National Tournament is quite a draw...and one thing for certain you can say about the NAA...they ENFORCE THE RULES...and don't expect "peer enforcement" of said rules, or make "exceptions" to the rules based upon who you are or what division you shoot in. 2 1/2 minutes for 3 shots MEANS 2 1/2 minutes for 3 shoots...unlike the "one minute" or "two minute" rule that is basically ignored in the 3-D orgs (expecting "peer enforcement).

Blast away, but the above is indeed FACT.

field14 (Tom D.)


----------



## 3rdplace (Jan 3, 2004)

Tom ASA range officials tote a stopwatch and police the shooters. I have seen them use it many, many times. Time is not "peer enforced." Hopefully with the known classes ASA now has you will come and shoot one of their National shoots so you can actually see how it is run. Maybe you already have but if you do I would like to shoot the Sims with you. 10 targets all known yardages. 

We need to be supporting other organizations not downing them. I joined the NFAA last year to shoot one shoot. I enjoyed it and think Field is a great crossover style of archery to get 3D shooters shooting paper style targets and vice versa. I will continue to be a member out of support for archery if nothing else. I would think that you would support the other styles of archery not put them down. After all we are all archers.


----------



## field14 (May 21, 2002)

3rd place. Thanks for clarifying the "time thing" with regard to ASA...However, that is NOT the feedback I've gotten from many shooters in my area that have attended and shot many an ASA event, especially the Metropolis shoot. I constantly hear about "certain divisions" that are sorta like allowed "variance" on the time because of what they are shoot for.....???????

It would be superb if the time limits were strictly enforced, as they well should be, for every John, Dick, and Harry on the course, without exception. 

Actually, it has nothing to do with marked vs. unmarked. I'm not too bad at judging distances; I'm not as good as the gurus, but then I don't nor haven't spent the time and money to learn the targets like they have either. Those that "study" the best for the "test" usually get the higher scores on said "test" if you know what I mean.

There are many reasons for my not attending ASA....cost per shot being one of them, and some basic differences in "philosophy", along with health reasons that I can't and won't get into. However, the most important one is that the outdoor events "conflict" with my road bicycling hobby, and frankly, I'd much rather be out on the road bicycle these days. We have numerous long distance cycling rides on weekends, and I just have gotten more into that over the past several years.

Thank you for being so "civil" and yet frank and to the point with your reply! IF I ever did attend an ASA event, I would shoot the SIMS with you or anyone else that was openly friendly and non-hostile, which, is nearly everyone; but NOT quite "everyone." hahaha.


----------



## reylamb (Feb 5, 2003)

field14 said:


> Correct me if I'm wrong, but the ASA is a FOR PROFIT organization...or should I say BUSINESS, is it not?
> 
> MOST archery clubs are NON PROFIT organizations...but try to have a big treasury...for what? Who knows...but the chimes always ring, we MADE x-amount of MONEY from our last shoot.
> 
> ...


ASA....for profit. No "host clubs" ASA runs em, ASA keeps the profits.
NFAA...well, you got that one figured out as well as anyone can these days....
IBO...non-profit. The org itself gets a small amount of each entry fee, the biggest portion does indeed go to the host club.

The ASA does not pay the CUB and youth classes because.............Tax reporting, yes because of Taxes.


----------



## reylamb (Feb 5, 2003)

field14 said:


> 3rd place. Thanks for clarifying the "time thing" with regard to ASA...However, that is NOT the feedback I've gotten from many shooters in my area that have attended and shot many an ASA event, especially the Metropolis shoot. I constantly hear about "certain divisions" that are sorta like allowed "variance" on the time because of what they are shoot for.....???????
> 
> It would be superb if the time limits were strictly enforced, as they well should be, for every John, Dick, and Harry on the course, without exception.
> 
> ...


As for the time, anyone that has ever shot in my group knows.................you better stay on time. Yes the groups can police themselves. Having said that, yes the range officials have stop watches. If someone is too shy or afraid to say something to a slow shooter all they have to do is grab a range official and let them handle it. I have actually turned in my own group to a range official after 2 guys in the group refused to speed up after I told them. 4 targets later both received 0's on a target for being too slow. If folks are complaining about the lenght on an ASA range it is their own fault for not speaking up.

Sandy runs a tight ship on the Pro ranges, they keep on time on those courses. I think if you researched it the biggest complaints about time comes from the IBO where there are no real range officials wandering around, and some folks shoot the same ranges as the Pros at the same time.

Offer still stands from many years ago.....come to Superman City and I am paying. Heck, I might even spring for some shrimp afterwards at Willy Jacks. If nothing else, just shootthe Simms with us, a good time will be had by all.....even if I will at times on the Sims shoot an ear, eye, nose or tail of a critter just because.


----------



## dw'struth (Mar 14, 2008)

Ok, I don't have allot to contribute to this thread. However, I must say that stating that one is not into archery for a "hobby" because they enjoy the chance to win a few bucks (and I do mean a few) just blows me away. I mean really, winning even 3 or 4 hundred dollars 4 or 5 times a year is far from a career. Thus, it is a hobby.


----------



## ttripp (Jun 7, 2004)

if cost per shot is what matters to field14, he damn sure gets his moneys worth on here.

dont cost the windbag a dime to shoot off his mouth about everything he doesnt know and continue to alienate more 3d shooters who he has no idea about.


sad that a man that is supposed to be so educated cant see how he may actually be hurting this website when you have competitive winning shooters saying they dont want to be back on this site because they are tired of listening to his mindless ramblings.


----------



## Daniel Boone (May 31, 2002)

Bottomline guys ASA doing alot of thing right and growing each year. Not a darn thing wrong with semi pro class and guys if someone needs to move back down after giving the pro class a shot and cant afford the high entrys it good for archery and keeps someone shooting.

Lets dont force folks out because of high entry fees.

ASA knows what it doing! It why there surving and doing well in a tough economy.
DB


----------



## Brian from GA (Aug 15, 2002)

Crap... ya'll done gone and pissed off Brian so he is gonna take it out on the rest of us semi's!! Don't let em bother you Brian. They don't understand that you can go to Gainesville and shoot a 424 which is a lifetime score, a "I got all the breaks" score and still not make the top 5 for the shootdown and you probably will not even get a check. So all that good, chest pumping feeling you had when you gave the range official your card is gone as soon as you check the final scores before the shootdown starts. I know a couple years ago my goal at Gainesville in semi was to win semi of course but to shoot a score high enough to have made the pro shootdown. Well some white boot wearing Buzz lightyear looking fella beat me by two in Semi and I came in second. I go to the village to check the pro scores cause that score had to make the shootdown IF I had the cajonnies to shoot pro..... I would have finised in a tie for 13th..... no money.... no shootdown..... Man those guys can shoot.


----------



## field14 (May 21, 2002)

ttripp said:


> if cost per shot is what matters to field14, he damn sure gets his moneys worth on here.
> 
> dont cost the windbag a dime to shoot off his mouth about everything he doesnt know and continue to alienate more 3d shooters who he has no idea about.
> 
> ...


Ttrip....

Get off it. You are CLUELESS as to what I know and what I don't....I tire of your banter....but perhaps YOUR bait has been swallowed and the hook set so deeply that you can't extract it.

Only people without understanding stoop to insults and verbal assaults as a resort to try to demonstrate any knowledge....THOSE SUCH AS YOURSELF...are more responsible for the "competitive winning shooters saying they dont want to be back on this site because they are tired of listening to YOUR mindless ramblings.

What YOU want is for everyone's opinion...and MINE was ASKED FOR and GIVEN....to agree with YOURS....and if it doesn't, you resort to insults and name calling. I won't knuckle under to your assaults, and I WILL offer my opinions. Once again, put me on your IGNORE list if you don't like what I have to say....BUT....it won't be YOU that will change my tune, I'll guarantee you that.

Of course, the dog smells his own and then blames it on someone else....look in the mirror...talk about the pot calling the kettle black?


----------



## TAYLOR CO. (Jun 9, 2005)

field14 said:


> 3rd place. Thanks for clarifying the "time thing" with regard to ASA...However, that is NOT the feedback I've gotten from many shooters in my area that have attended and shot many an ASA event, especially the Metropolis shoot. I constantly hear about "certain divisions" that are sorta like allowed "variance" on the time because of what they are shoot for.....???????
> 
> It would be superb if the time limits were strictly enforced, as they well should be, for every John, Dick, and Harry on the course, without exception.
> 
> ...


Best thing you can do is stay with your closed-version stuff...That or take the offer that has been offered. Everybody here on this 3d forum would be proud to call you friend if you'd only try it. But you won't. Don't criticize a growing organization. Profit or not, I like the ASA format and what they provide for us. Rock on ASA.


----------



## TAYLOR CO. (Jun 9, 2005)

ttripp said:


> if cost per shot is what matters to field14, he damn sure gets his moneys worth on here.
> 
> Dont cost the windbag a dime to shoot off his mouth about everything he doesnt know and continue to alienate more 3d shooters who he has no idea about.
> 
> ...


amen brother!! And Archery as a Whole!! Pure Ignorance!


----------



## field14 (May 21, 2002)

TAYLOR CO. said:


> Best thing you can do is stay with your closed-version stuff...That or take the offer that has been offered. Everybody here on this 3d forum would be proud to call you friend if you'd only try it. But you won't. Don't criticize a growing organization. Profit or not, I like the ASA format and what they provide for us. Rock on ASA.


Taylor,
I like your non-confrontational style! No insults, put-downs, or use of abusive terminology...what a welcome change. Perhaps some of the others with pent up hostilities should take note, hahahaha.

Don't ever say "Won't", "NEVER", or "Can't"...those 3 words can come back to haunt you in so many ways, ha.

I must admit, that when I DID "try it", I almost thorougly enjoyed myself and found "nearly" everyone to be accommodating, polite, and passionate about their venue, just as they should be. Too bad that SEVERAL (obviously not all) decided to be butt-head with regards to my most UNFAVORITE thing about ASA...the use of UMBIES to break the wind for the shooter), and to NOT FOLLOW the time limit...even when called on it! Of course the host club was their HOME CLUB....so the "powers at be" did NOT disqualify them for taking way more than their allotted time per shooter! NOTHING was done, in fact. Then, we tried it again at another location the following weekend...and the same crap, but different day....NO enforcement of the time limits, and the umbies were out in full bloom, even tho the wind wasn't blowing all that hard. WAIT WAIT WAIT WAIT...try to shoot thru and you get B**Ched at and would have to come back around to try to finish...which we finally did by BUTTING IN and just doing it rather than asking again to shoot thru.

BUT...perhaps that sour taste TWICE in a row....shouldn't have soured me on it as much as it has....MAYBE things have changed...cuz I sure see from the likes of POLITE PEOPLE with OPEN MINDS, especially the likes of Daniel Boone....that perhaps I got caught in the wrong places with the wrong sets of people that MAYBE were more a representation of the wrong side of the coin? Could be, but it sure left a sour taste.

NOW....here in Illinois, I must admit, that ASA type shoots I"ve attended since 2001 have NOT seen the "umbie thing" as an issue, and MOST of the time, the time limits aren't problematical...but those have all been local shoots with lower attendances and few, if any "money" or "semi-pros" on hand. In my area, we are truly blessed with a group of shooters that will shoot anything and everything..>IBO, ASA, NAA, NFAA. Put a target up there, and they will shoot it...and THIS is good.

However, that all being said, you just never know, the "fieldman" could show up sometime at an ASA event for the heck of it and to see if indeed "things have changed". What I read and what I hear have become more positive than negative, and like I said earlier....at least Danny and the ASA are NOT afraid to take the bull by the tail and MAKE CHANGES and TRY NEW THINGS, instead of sitting back on the laurels and doing the same thing the same way and expecting different results. To THAT, my hat is off to the ASA! Definitely PROGRESSIVE, and UNAFRAID, even when paid up members in the ranks think that the ASA has made the wrong decisions!


----------



## NC ladyarcher (Jan 26, 2009)

Field we just have to agree to disagree. No way is the joes watering down the pro purses.


----------



## Sentinalonfire (Apr 4, 2010)

i wanna be buzz when i grow up!!!!!! lol


----------



## field14 (May 21, 2002)

NC ladyarcher said:


> Field we just have to agree to disagree. No way is the joes watering down the pro purses.


I can live with that, NC, you are entitled to your opinion and feedback, and I'm entitled to mine. Good shooting, and may your arrows find their way to the 12-ring!
As long as the Joe's portion of the registration fees go to THEIR pot, and that the PROS' portion of their registration fees go to the PROS' pot you are entirely correct..>BUT....once the "Joes" start demanding part of the "sponsorship contributions", contingencies, etc, that the PROS normally have been getting...then at that point, the Joes will be "watering down" the pro purse. Since there are always more "joes" than there are pros...if the Joes get a % of "sponsorship contributions" and "contingencies" based upon % participation, then the Joes also, again will get the lions' share of said pot...but be paying LESS in registration fees...and at that point, it also waters down the PRO purses...and you would find some "PROS" going back to amateur or semi-pro...to recoup their losses.

Hopefully that will never happen, however. I would think that the ASA would prevent it, or so one would hope. However, the potential for the above scenario is very real, as more and more "amateurs" start demanding to shoot for MONEY......

field14 (Tom D.)


----------



## J Whittington (Nov 13, 2009)

"BUT....once the "Joes" start demanding part of the "sponsorship contributions", contingencies, etc " quote form field 14/ Tom

Tom. I don't know of any amatures_ Joes that *demand *anything. If your referring to the bowtech/elite contengency, thats not the Joes fault...that was a Company decision. Plus, look how many joes shoot a hoyt,mathews etc at the asa ibo events. and these Joes know that these companies don't pay contengency. but still shoot them anyway.

I just don't see how the joes are the blame for the low pay-out s for the pros. as a matter of fact, if the joes didn't participate, there would be no big events, and therefore, not the opportunity for the pros to win $ to begin with.
The joes represent the working class man/women that pays all the bills for this God forsaken country, while the rich big wheels; Politicitians waste everything. WITH OUT THE JOE'S ARCHERY AS WE KNOW IT WOULD NOT LONGER BE!

NEW SLOGAN: lONG LIVE THE JOES!


----------



## Deer Slayer I (Feb 21, 2010)

Tom D are you kidding me "inforcement of the two minute rule" I shot behind you and Frank at some field founds. Twenty minutes for you guys to shoot 4 arrows!


----------



## TAYLOR CO. (Jun 9, 2005)

Deer Slayer I said:


> Tom D are you kidding me "inforcement of the two minute rule" I shot behind you and Frank at some field founds. Twenty minutes for you guys to shoot 4 arrows!


I agree. I have watched a lot of NFAA shoots on alternative2tv.com those guys take a while to shoot for sure. I've never seen any range officials walking around, period. 
No one is going to change contingency...This thread is waay off course. 
field14, why don't you start your own thread about it in General Archery or somewhere else? This thread is about SEMI-PRO Shoot-off/Shoot-Downs. I know that it's easy to get off track when on this subject..But you have the makings of a thread of your own just on your subject.


----------



## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

Tom, this "joes" getting or demanding contingency money, where'd you get that? I mean Hoyt, Mathews and the like post their how much and to what place finishes. Gold Tip has $100,000.00 up for grabs. Same with Alpine last year, $2500 to anyone who won on the national circuit.


----------



## field14 (May 21, 2002)

SonnyThomas said:


> Tom, this "joes" getting or demanding contingency money, where'd you get that? I mean Hoyt, Mathews and the like post their how much and to what place finishes. Gold Tip has $100,000.00 up for grabs. Same with Alpine last year, $2500 to anyone who won on the national circuit.


Those sponsors of "contingency money" pretty much spell out what it is for, and how much is there. In spite of that, you hear "some" folks still whine and cry that the "amateurs" (those NOT shooting in CHAMPIONSHIP DIVISIONS) should be getting MORE of that contingency cuz "they have expenses too".

The GoldTip contingency is NOT $100,000 all in one chunk, "up for grabs"...I'm pretty sure it is very specifically spelled out how much for each event, and specifically how much each division will get at each event based upon 1st, 2nd, or 3rd. I ain't going in there to check it all out, either...but I'd wager that a person NOT in the CHAMPIONSHIP at Vegas isn't going to get as much for a 1st place finish in "Flights" as a person winning 1st place in CHAMPIONSHIP, nor should they.

I never said that they GOT a bigger piece of the contingency pie...just that some are demanding it, or asking for MORE to "amateurs" and then complaining that the purses aren't "big enough."


----------



## 3rdplace (Jan 3, 2004)

ASA has a rule for contingency. If you make or receive more than $2000 in money or products you are required to shoot Semi Pro or Pro.

Rule states: Anyone who competes using a compound bow as a professional or semi-professional in other nationally sanctioned 3-D or field events must compete in the respective ASA Pro class if available. In addition, *anyone who receives sponsor support that exceeds $2,000.00 per year in products, equipment, services, or cash is required to shoot in semi-pro or pro*. Anyone who has earned more than $5,000.00 in career ASA Pro/Am earnings must compete in Semi-Pro or Pro.


----------



## 3Dblackncamo (Jul 22, 2009)

this thread was not created for everyone to argue, but a poll for semi-pro shooters as well as anyone who enjoys asa archery nothing more nothing less, lets all get along and if you dont have anything good to say dont say anything!


----------



## Sentinalonfire (Apr 4, 2010)

thank you mr gary


3Dblackncamo said:


> this thread was not created for everyone to argue, but a poll for semi-pro shooters as well as anyone who enjoys asa archery nothing more nothing less, lets all get along and if you dont have anything good to say dont say anything!


----------



## cenochs (May 2, 2007)

3rdplace said:


> ASA has a rule for contingency. If you make or receive more than $2000 in money or products you are required to shoot Semi Pro or Pro.
> 
> Rule states: Anyone who competes using a compound bow as a professional or semi-professional in other nationally sanctioned 3-D or field events must compete in the respective ASA Pro class if available. In addition, *anyone who receives sponsor support that exceeds $2,000.00 per year in products, equipment, services, or cash is required to shoot in semi-pro or pro*. Anyone who has earned more than $5,000.00 in career ASA Pro/Am earnings must compete in Semi-Pro or Pro.


I like the idea of the rules but that would be harder to enforce then players getting money in college sports! Some of these guys walking around the Pro Ams with shirts that look like billboards would have to move up if they where really sponsored by all the patches!


----------



## J Whittington (Nov 13, 2009)

Contengency is different than sponsorship

Contengency any one shooting the equipment that provides the $ (except for Hoyt) can win Contengency

sponsor ship is for those select few that receive product(bows, equipment entry fees, travel expenses) etc.


----------

