# Bareshaft nock high



## g_whitcomb

20yds

Also is it normal for the bare shaft to drop more than the fletched ? At 40yds I'm on the money left/right but about a foot lower than fletched?


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## ar1220

I believe I would check can timing and maybe try to advance the top cam just a Lil bit


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## mdewitt71

I am thinking it will need a twist in the cables... 
I am sure someone will be on that knows more about Hoyt tuning than I in a bit.

What target is that? It looks nice.


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## g_whitcomb

ar1220 said:


> I believe I would check can timing and maybe try to advance the top cam just a Lil bit


My top cam is ahead of the bottom by exactly a credit card. Wouldn't advancing it more make it worse?


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## g_whitcomb

mdewitt71 said:


> I am thinking it will need a twist in the cables...
> I am sure someone will be on that knows more about Hoyt tuning than I in a bit.
> 
> What target is that? It looks nice.


Target skins from third hand and home built. 
Thanks


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## SAVIOUR68

Green acres first just make sure that it not the bareshaft it self causing this issue meaning turn the nock slightly to see what the bare shaft does.
And yes you want the lower cam/limb to start working harder to pull the nock point lower


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## WMA HUNTER

It's in the cam timing , add a twist to the control cam , if it gets worse take back out and then take another out. Keep experimenting and it will get right . Don't mess with the buss cable it looks good. 

The reason the bareshaft is lower at longer distances is because that is where it is headed , being point down/tail up.


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## ontarget7

Would need to know more info, cam #, draw slot, current setting etc ?


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## g_whitcomb

ontarget7 said:


> Would need to know more info, cam #, draw slot, current setting etc ?


Nitrum 30, #3 cam, 29.5" "D"slot, 50-60lb maxed out at ??, top cam slightly ahead by about 1/16", factory strings, arrow thru upper third of Berger hole, Beman ICS Hunter 340 @ 28" carbon to carbon with 50gr insert & 100 gr tips.
Left/ right is good even out to 40yds so far, except bareshaft hits about 12"low ?


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## g_whitcomb

WMA HUNTER said:


> It's in the cam timing , add a twist to the control cam , if it gets worse take back out and then take another out. Keep experimenting and it will get right . Don't mess with the buss cable it looks good.
> 
> The reason the bareshaft is lower at longer distances is because that is where it is headed , being point down/tail up.


If I add a twist to the control cable it will put the bottom cam ahead of the top? I'm a half twist of each yoke from both hitting at the same time. The top is ahead by a credit card now. If I take a half out of each yoke cams are perfect but bareshaft doesn't really change.

As far as the shaft hitting low,that makes sense. If they were together at 40 I would be surprised . I've never been able to keep a bareshaft close at 40. Just being in line with the fletched makes me happy.


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## g_whitcomb

Anyone try removing some of the factory speed nocks to fix this?


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## SAVIOUR68

GreenAcres said:


> Anyone try removing some of the factory speed nocks to fix this?


NO IMO that has ZERO to do with this issue, did you advance the lower cam yet ?


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## g_whitcomb

Not yet. Just throwing it out there[emoji1]
All I can do is remove a half twist of each yoke then my cams are even?


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## ontarget7

What rest ?
Just want to get all the info before I recommend what I would do


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## g_whitcomb

QAD/Hoyt rest with standard launcher.


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## ontarget7

Run middle of arrow through top edge of berger hole running nock level. This should take care of your problem and give you a little more wiggle room for top cam advanced. 

Why some might ask ? It's the grip position change, so when they lowered the grip on everything Z5 and newer. By raising the rest you counteract some of that but no where near the top cam advancement like on pre Z5 cam models. 

The grip on the Carbons are slightly higher than the aluminum's so you can get away with a little more cam rotation before your bottom cam want's to hit first to clean up your vertical nock travel. 

If need be to get the last little bit out if need be, try positioning your arrows stiff plane down to see if that cleans up that last little bit of vertical nock travel. 

Last but not least, if you can't get the rest out, add 3 speed nocks to the top cam

Now if none of that works, the last thing is grip. 

Just giving you all the scenarios you might come up against.


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## g_whitcomb

Ok. Confused? Am I to advance the top cam more? Wouldn't this pull the nock up faster and increase nock high? I can either bring them even, advanced by a 1/16, or advance the top more. I wouldn't want the bottom cam advanced more than the top? Maybe I'm overthinking things. I just feel like I'm so close.


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## ontarget7

I am referring to draw cycle rotation

So if you are tail high bareshaft low the only way to compensate for that would be to untwist the BC or twist the CC, assuming you are nock level, if you don't want to make the adjustments I mentioned above


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## ontarget7

Bareshaft high tail low would mean twist the BC or untwist the CC


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## g_whitcomb

ontarget7 said:


> I am referring to draw cycle rotation
> 
> So if you are tail high bareshaft low the only way to compensate for that would be to untwist the BC or twist the CC, assuming you are nock level, if you don't want to make the adjustments I mentioned above


I'm thinking I want my top cam advanced the way it is now, by 1/16". I was just wondering if I need to change cam sync in addition to the suggested adjustments?
(My brain hurts)


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## ontarget7

You will probably be good with cam synch as is if you move your arrow and nock point up


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## g_whitcomb

Any form issues other than grip to be aware of that may also contribute to this?


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## ontarget7

GreenAcres said:


> Any form issues other than grip to be aware of that may also contribute to this?


Grip can cause that as I mentioned above.


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## g_whitcomb

I reset the rest higher as you suggested and will find out tonight after work how it goes. Thanks for the advice.


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## g_whitcomb

Also, how can you tell if the arrow is too high in the Berger?


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## ontarget7

Not sure what you mean by to high ? Center of shaft running through top of berger hole


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## g_whitcomb

Just curious ,say you were bottom of arrow at top of Berger? What would happen? Not that it is but just wondering better high than low, pros/cons?


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## ontarget7

IMO better high than low with the Z5 cams


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## g_whitcomb

Shot some tonight and made some small adjustments. Better but still not there? Somehow bareshaft is now impacting right but closer to the fletched. Still a bit nock high but maybe only an inch or less? 
Note to self, don't keep bareshafts without field points in with other arrows. They don't fly too well but the penetration was not too bad!


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## ontarget7

How are you checking nock height ?


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## g_whitcomb

ontarget7 said:


> How are you checking nock height ?


All I have is a set of the levels for the string and arrow. I have tried different grips and it does change somewhat. I'm getting closer I can feel it. I will have more time tonight after work and will try again. I'm having a bit of trouble with nock pinch, sometimes I can see the arrow lift off the rest when I get to full draw. My tied in nock sets just won't hold? I may just go to a small one at the bottom and see if this helps.


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## ontarget7

That could be some of your issue, if that doesn't correct it, add two red brass nocks to the top, right above what is there from factory.


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## g_whitcomb

Well after two afternoons of chasing my tail, I believe that I am not capable of shooting a bare shaft. The best I've got was this and it isn't repeatable all the time. I've gone high and low and everywhere in between on the Berger, cams even to advanced, added weight above the factory speed nocks, twisted and untwisted yokes, shortened draw length changed my grip so many times I forgot where I started? [emoji35][emoji35]


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## bbjavelina

A lot of factors could be at work here, grip not being the least among them. 

Here's a quick, and instantly reversible, thing for you to try. Either add or remove maybe 1/2 twist from either limb bolt. Things will get better or worse. Proceed accordingly. Doing this will make a minute change to your vertical nock travel as well as how the grip sits in your hand. I've found that doing this is way easier to "read" the results than trying to move the rest or nock point. If you keep notes of what you've done, you can always get back to where you were.

I wish you well.


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## ontarget7

GreenAcres said:


> Well after two afternoons of chasing my tail, I believe that I am not capable of shooting a bare shaft. The best I've got was this and it isn't repeatable all the time. I've gone high and low and everywhere in between on the Berger, cams even to advanced, added weight above the factory speed nocks, twisted and untwisted yokes, shortened draw length changed my grip so many times I forgot where I started? [emoji35][emoji35]


This happens a lot and guys start jumping the gun all over the place before looking at the big picture. Where you are at right now is easily fixable, I see it all the time. 

Some don't have the patience to get bareshafts perfect, it's not he end of the world. 

Enjoy shooting your bow and if it's shoots well for you, no worries. Don't let it get to you mentally.


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## g_whitcomb

I'm going to try removing the grip to see if it is causing any issues. My other Hoyt's preferred sideplates. I will also try the limb bolts, I believe I would loosen the top so it won't work so hard correct? I get more bareshafts to the right of fletched with nock left. I'm positive my form I a big contributing factor in all of this. If I had some 28.5" mods I would also see if that lessens the problem. I really appreciate all of the advice! If I still lived in Colorado I would pay you a visit[emoji1] thanks again.


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## SAVIOUR68

GreenAcres said:


> I'm going to try removing the grip to see if it is causing any issues. My other Hoyt's preferred sideplates. I will also try the limb bolts, I believe I would loosen the top so it won't work so hard correct? I get more bareshafts to the right of fletched with nock left. I'm positive my form I a big contributing factor in all of this. If I had some 28.5" mods I would also see if that lessens the problem. I really appreciate all of the advice! If I still lived in Colorado I would pay you a visit[emoji1] thanks again.


Green if you are now gettting MORE right impacts put a twist in the left yoke, sounds and looks like you have the vertical issue nearly under control. When you fix a vertical impact issue it is common to have left/right impacts show up after that that will need slight adjustment. Remember that when you are moving things up/down/ left/rignt it changes the dynamics of the arrow slightly upon release because of were the arrow is in a nock level or neutral center shoot plane.
And yes proper grip pressure is A MUST, I had a freind with a new Nitruim Turbo that could not get rid of a high left bareshaft with any adjustment, I told him to take the grip off and all of a sudden the bareshaft was low right and with a few adjustments bareshafts and flectched were slapping together at 20 yards.


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## ontarget7

According to the pics above, if you add a twist to the left yoke alone this will give him even more of a tail high impact low.


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## SAVIOUR68

ontarget7 said:


> According to the pics above, if you add a twist to the left yoke alone this will give him even more of a tail high impact low.


Shane if you read post 37 of the OPs it DOES NOT match the pic which shows a LOW bareshaft, post 37 he stated that "I get more bareshafts to the right of fletched with nock left".
Twist in left yoke will hopefully bring the bareshaft to left.


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## g_whitcomb

1 1/2 turns out of the top limb?


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## SAVIOUR68

Green as per your post 37 those pictures match, NOWWW since that you have the vertical impacts ok because you backed the top limb out 1.5 turns tells us that per your original post YOU NEED THE BOTTOM CAM ADVANDED. Tighten the limb back up and advance your lower cam to hit first. After you get the vertical grouping back where you need it you AGAIN will need to correct the horizontal groups which is easiest with the yokes as long as the upper cam in not severly tilted.
1. Center your rest center shot at 3/4-13/16 from riser and do not adjust it any more
2. Set arrow as close to nock level as possible
3 Reshoot your bareshafts and I am sure you will need to ADVANCE BOTTOM cam, do not rest movement, use control cable and or yoke cable were it attaches to lower cam. Taking 1 twist out from your Yoke/buss cable at lower cam will advance lower cam but you may need more.
4. Once vertical impacts are correct move to horizontal impacts and use the yokes on the upper limb to change impacts.


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## g_whitcomb

My cams are currently even This would put the bottom ahead of the top? Centershot is 3/4, could the nock be high? All I have to check is the set of levels. I believe it is level but??


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## SAVIOUR68

Yes a twist out of the yoke/buss at the lower cable will slightly advance lower cam when needed, ur center shoot should be good at 3/4.
Looking from the side of the bow with the rest in the up position with arrow on rest get the arrow as close to horizontal/level as possible and then shoot a few bareshafts
If bareshafts still shoot low NOW you can begin to advance the lower cam in small increments


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## g_whitcomb

B I N G O and Bingo was his name-o! One twist of lower end of control cable and a tweek of nock height. @ 20 yards
So this must mean I can't run my top cam advanced, even slightly??

















THANK YOU! [emoji1][emoji1][emoji1][emoji1][emoji1][emoji1][emoji1][emoji1][emoji1][emoji1][emoji1][emoji1][emoji1][emoji1][emoji1][emoji1]


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## SAVIOUR68

AWESOME Green, people get to worried about a top cam advancement for no reason, every bow tunes different for the shooter. I let the bareshaft tune tell me what it likes best. I believe you have found what your bow likes with you shooting it. 
AWESOME group


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## g_whitcomb

I'm as giddy as a schoolgirl right now!! [emoji66]My wife believes I'm crazy [emoji51]


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## SAVIOUR68

I bet your wife is just happy you can now spend more time with her instead of the bow.


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## g_whitcomb

SAVIOUR68 said:


> I bet your wife is just happy you can now spend more time with her instead of the bow.


Yeah....... But I've gotta' work on that sight tape......[emoji6]


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## gritsnfishin1

SAVIOUR68 said:


> I bet your wife is just happy you can now spend more time with her instead of the bow.


Better save up time now for hunting season later!


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## ontarget7

GreenAcres said:


> B I N G O and Bingo was his name-o! One twist of lower end of control cable and a tweek of nock height. @ 20 yards
> So this must mean I can't run my top cam advanced, even slightly??
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> THANK YOU! [emoji1][emoji1][emoji1][emoji1][emoji1][emoji1][emoji1][emoji1][emoji1][emoji1][emoji1][emoji1][emoji1][emoji1][emoji1][emoji1]


There are ways to still get top cam hitting first but if you are satisfied with the results down range, call it good


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## ontarget7

SAVIOUR68 said:


> AWESOME Green, people get to worried about a top cam advancement for no reason, every bow tunes different for the shooter. I let the bareshaft tune tell me what it likes best. I believe you have found what your bow likes with you shooting it.
> AWESOME group


It's not that people are worried about top cam not being a head. It's just that 99% of the time with a hybrid your top cam hitting first will yield the best long range groups.


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## SAVIOUR68

ontarget7 said:


> It's not that people are worried about top cam not being a head. It's just that 99% of the time with a hybrid your top cam hitting first will yield the best long range groups.


I have never heard my bow complain to me about it and we frequently shoot out to 100yards with ZERO problems


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## ontarget7

Your the 1% [emoji2]

I have never shot to a 100 yards, maybe one day I will get there


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## g_whitcomb

ontarget7 said:


> There are ways to still get top cam hitting first but if you are satisfied with the results down range, call it good


Out of curiosity how would this be accomplished? Not that I feel like messing with it, Right now I want to dial in a sight tape and shoot [emoji1]
I also wanted to be sure you know that I really appreciate all of your help.


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## tonygoz

tag


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## Buckdundee

Tag


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## j53

every hoyt sold from 2014 -2015 ( prolly 170 so far) the factory serving is too tight (guess they added couple more strands in the fuse string lines) before I do anything I reserve with .018 and dont serve over the tail..(carbon express, gold tip, easton nocks,) This has 100% improved the tuning process and makes it much easier to get the arrows busting nocks and tuning through paper... just an over looked problem that turns good groups into great groups. Ive seen bows shoot great tears through paper and not group to my standards... tweaking and giving arrows a lil more direction if timing & elevation is right can make the bow shoot better than you can imagine... IMO a bow is only tuned as good as it groups.. having a arrow come out perfectly straight (dynamic column loading) which is what bare shafting achieves doesnt always equal the best groups. To date Ive never seen a hoyt that groups better with the bottom cam advanced or dead nutz over one with the top advanced bout a 16th (xtr cams and up).... but I have seen them shoot good holes ( but dont live and die by the paper)


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## TMan51

WMA HUNTER said:


> It's in the cam timing , add a twist to the control cam , if it gets worse take back out and then take another out. Keep experimenting and it will get right . Don't mess with the buss cable it looks good.


The entire system is connected, any change in one affects the others.
If I'm reading the post correctly, you are shooting at 40yds, and that amount of deviation is actually very small. One thing I'm seeing with the more current "30's" is they are very responsive to adjustments, and any change you make should be small at this point. I use a combination of bus/control manipulations and micro adjustments on the rest, ( I use the old Quik Tune 3000's). I swapped out a rest on my Spyder 30 this week, as I needed a spring update, and the tiny difference in that changed POI and nock entry. Taking a half turn out of the buss, it was back in the game. My Vector 32 is very much the same.

Make adjustments one at a time, keep them small, and shoot them a bit before making more adjustments.


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## blackduck889

tag for later


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## zernzm08

tag


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## enewman

zernzm08 said:


> tag


You should look at the date. This post is 3 years old.


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## zernzm08

I know its old but the info is correct. I go back in the archives and tag threads that offer tuning advice. Helps me out later.


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