# Tight Group w/ Bare Bow at 20 Yds?



## rockin_johny (Oct 9, 2004)

Are you shooting for scores or for hunting purposes? Tome, for hunting practice and confidence, if I can stick a group in an 8" circle I feel good. That is what I call my pie plate test. If you are more concerned with scoring on rings then that is a different story.

John


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## Viper1 (Aug 21, 2003)

Xero - 

Hard to give a hard and fast answer to that.
A lot will depend on how long you have been shooting and exactly what you mean by "bare bow".

Basically we always use the 6" rule, meaning keeping most of your arrows within a 6" circle as a mark of proficiency.
The newer the shooter, the shorter distance the 6" group will be seen.
A "trad" type holding an honest 6" group at 20 yds is going quite well. 

For people using a more formal aiming system (and admittedly a dedicated 20 yd bow), the group size may be as much as halved, since they are effectively using the arrow or part of the bow as a sight.

Viper1 out.


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## MGF (Oct 27, 2012)

I think the 40 cm target and 300 round scoring makes for a good reference. What do you think of as a "good score"? That might bring us back to the old 6 inch group thing. If you can shoot a group that size that's centered with few fliers, you score pretty well. 

I got my highest 300 round score to date by spending a couple of days ONLY shooting at 20 yards. But, I'm not trying to win an indoor title. With hunting in mind, I look for tight groups when shooting from one spot which tells me my form is consistent but it's not a tragedy to be a little high at some distances and a little low at others...the "maximum point blank" thing. What I'm looking to do is reliably hit the vitals over some range of distances without having to know the exact distance.


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## centershot (Sep 13, 2002)

My tightest groups have been 5X 25's - done it twice, flukes to be sure but still pretty cool. I did shoot a 300 last weekend just for fun and ended up with a 259. A 259 is averaging 4.3 points per arrow, on the target shown here the white is a 5 the next ring a 4, etc. 260 is pretty decent 280 is excellent average all 4's works out to a 240.


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## LBR (Jan 1, 2004)

The better shots I know don't shoot 20 yd groups much if at all--they destroy too many arrows. One or two arrows per spot.


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## centershot (Sep 13, 2002)

That why they don't show up to Nationals?


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## LBR (Jan 1, 2004)

Who said they don't? I didn't mention any names. Unlike some "experts", they are quite accomplished competitors.

When I'm having a good day, I don't shoot groups for the same reason. When I shot a compound I learned pretty quick that shooting groups destroyed arrows.


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## centershot (Sep 13, 2002)

With a compound the 5 spot is common for that reason. Shooting high 50x to 60x counts almost require it. I thought we were talking about Trad archers being how this is the Traditional forum. I don't know any 'good' shooters that don't shoot 20 yard 300 rounds on a regular basis, compound or trad. It could be a geographic thing or just the better shooters shoot year round and indoors is usually 20 yds. FWIW unibushings and g nocks like the ones shown in the picture above will take a lot of abuse. I carry a bag with some extra nocks, when one gets hit they are easily replaced. Those arrows have shot dozens of 300 rounds, new nocks-refletch-straighten them once in awhile and shoot away.


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## LBR (Jan 1, 2004)

> I thought we were talking about Trad archers...


I was referring to traditional bows.



> I don't know any 'good' shooters that don't shoot 20 yard 300 rounds on a regular basis,


How many "good" shooters do you know? I don't know nearly all of them--I've only been shooting traditional bows for around 20 years, tournaments for almost as long. I've only shot tournaments and rendezvous from TX to PA; only hunted from NM and CO to SC and FL, so there are quite a few I haven't met or talked to.

As a side note, "groups" consist of a lot more than 300 rounds. The title of the thread is "tight group"--doesn't mention a 300.



> FWIW unibushings and g nocks like the ones shown in the picture above will take a lot of abuse.


Yeah--I remember when those were introduced to the market. Don't do a thing about point-to-shaft or shaft-to-shaft impacts. Uni-bushings seem to have made "robin hoods" a good bit simpler--I saw a lot more of them after the uni-bushing became popular.



> Those arrows have shot dozens of 300 rounds, new nocks-refletch-straighten them once in awhile and shoot away.


Obviously you aren't smacking arrows. Not sure what that has to do with other archers destroying arrows.

Chad


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## Sanford (Jan 26, 2009)

I go through tons of nocks and keep plenty spares on hand, but it doesn't stop me from shooting at the same center - that's part of it. That doesn't mean I stack arrow on top of arrow either - just keep them close to the middle. I can't imagine a claim that some barebow/trad shooter is so good he has to shoot in multiple centers to maintain his arrows. That would be a ridiculous claim! Sounds more like the legendary "Sumgai" shooter - or, to better interpret as "some guy" I know in English translation!


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## LBR (Jan 1, 2004)

Sanford, after the numerous..."embellishments" you have been caught in, for you to question the honesty of someone else is absolutely comical. You remind me of an old "Saturday Night Live" character.

Back to the OP.



> What's a tight group? What's a really, really tight group? I understand 300 scoring, but mostly I'm just wondering what's possible and how do I compare to the expert and the serious?


A tight group is 3 arrows in a 3" circle. A really, really tight group is one or two of the three being damaged or destroyed.

If you get a chance to attend some competitions where there are some of the better archers attending, you will notice they don't shoot a lot of arrows at one spot. Might shoot 2-3, often it's one arrow per spot. They aren't showing off, they just don't want to ruin arrows.

We have lots of nocks and arrows destroyed in the NASP program--this is kids shooting at 10 and 15 meters, two kids per target, 5 arrows per end. G-nocks (or N-nocks), uni-bushings, 1816 arrows (super tough arrows) Many have never shot a bow before.


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## Lungwurm (Jun 19, 2012)

Xero, I am not an expert and I am lucky if I get to shoot my bow monthly. A tight group for me would look like this. This was 8 arrows shot in less than one minute at an 8 inch paper plate 25 yards away (a game I play with my kids). I am shooting off the shelf with my 62" sage, 50#@28".


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## Sanford (Jan 26, 2009)

LBR said:


> If you get a chance to attend some competitions where there are some of the better archers attending, you will notice they don't shoot a lot of arrows at one spot. Might shoot 2-3, often it's one arrow per spot. They aren't showing off, they just don't want to ruin arrows.


Other than 3D, where it's one arrow per target anyway, what in the heck are you talking about in "competition" for trad or barebow shooters? It's 3 arrows per spot for Vegas, 5 arrows per spot for NFAA 300, so on. There's a multi-spot for each the compound folks use. Please elaborate on these competitions where folks choose how many arrows (2-3) per spot they shoot


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## Xero (Apr 20, 2013)

Lungwurm said:


> Xero, I am not an expert and I am lucky if I get to shoot my bow monthly. A tight group for me would look like this. This was 8 arrows shot in less than one minute at an 8 inch paper plate 25 yards away (a game I play with my kids). I am shooting off the shelf with my 62" sage, 50#@28".
> 
> 
> View attachment 1696692


Yeah, on a good day this is what my groups look like at 20 yds. I see the groups like CenterShot posted and figure they're either using sights or sticking the arrows in the center before taking the photo. *LMAO* No accusations here! I just can't imagine being able to shoot this tightly.

I should get out the tape measure. I thought a paper plate was 9" dia.

Back from the Archery Barn -- 

Cheapo paper plate, flat edged w/ shallow pleats is 9" dia. I have some 10" dia. plates, heavier w/ a printed edge. Also some 6" dia. w/ printed edge. But that's not a signal to move this thread into a discussion of paper plates!


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## Sanford (Jan 26, 2009)

Xero said:


> But that's not a signal to move this thread into a discussion of paper plates!


BUT, all the good shooters "I know" save their paper plates for barbeque after the shooting/competition is over.  They destroy too many plates with their putting holes in them.


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## mrjeffro (Jul 25, 2007)

Thats some very very nice shooting, Center. I have yet to shoot a 25. A couple times when I get 4 in the white I totally choke and my last arrow usually ends up in the one ring:BangHead:




centershot said:


> My tightest groups have been 5X 25's - done it twice, flukes to be sure but still pretty cool. I did shoot a 300 last weekend just for fun and ended up with a 259. A 259 is averaging 4.3 points per arrow, on the target shown here the white is a 5 the next ring a 4, etc. 260 is pretty decent 280 is excellent average all 4's works out to a 240.


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## dan in mi (Dec 17, 2009)

mrjeffro said:


> Thats some very very nice shooting, Center. I have yet to shoot a 25. A couple times when I get 4 in the white I totally choke and my last arrow usually ends up in the one ring:BangHead:


That darn mental game..... Whips me on a regualr basis too. I love writing down 21 4x. ukey:


I would call all 4's on std blue face a good group for hunting purposes. That translates to a 240 on the 300.


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## Nekekal (Dec 25, 2012)

You are better than I am. Not that you should feel too good about that since it seems almost every is. I enjoy archery, but seem to have little natural talent for it.

I have been using Vipers 6 inch rule as a measure of goodness. At 10 yards I can usually keep all 12 arrows inside of a 6 inch circle if I don't shoot them at the same circle. If I try to use just one spot, I get nervous and start pulling them, or so it seems.

I don't actually use targets or plates. I have a lot of stick on orange spots from my rifle shooting, that are about 2 inches in diameter. I just stick them to cardboard and draw a circle around them. 

Anyway, to finally get to your question. At 20 yards, I can seldom keep all of them inside of a 16 inch circle. On average, I get at least one flier out of the 16 inch circle. That gives me 11/12 inside 16 inches. But 8/12 are within 10 inches and 6/12 are inside of the 6 inch circle. Some days better, some days worse.

I have been at this about a year and practice several times a week, except for vacations, trips, and winter. The bow is a one piece recurve, 38#, less at my short draw, 68 inches long, full length carbon arrows, 125 gr tips.

Good luck.


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## grantmac (May 31, 2007)

LBR said:


> If you get a chance to attend some competitions where there are some of the better archers attending, you will notice they don't shoot a lot of arrows at one spot. Might shoot 2-3, often it's one arrow per spot. They aren't showing off, they just don't want to ruin arrows.


That's funny because I can spend an entire winter shooting into a single spot at 20yds without going through more than 1 or 2 nocks and I'm not exactly what you would call a poor shot at 20yds. Neither are all the Trad shooters who actually show-up to Nationals (not me, too much $$), they all pretty much shoot the single spot. Last I checked nobody failed to finish the weekend due to lack of arrows and there were some very impressive scores happening.

Nothing destroys nocks faster when shooting a single target then arrows which either aren't tuned perfectly or kick when they hit the target. If they are all in there perfectly straight its very unlikely to cause damage. Even less likely if you use a G-nock bushing, the Uni-bushing is too large and does generally attract points.

Now that the usual slander has happened back to the OP:

Keep 60 arrows inside a 6" pie-plate and you are doing well.

-Grant


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## Lungwurm (Jun 19, 2012)

LOL, I guess they are 9 inches in d. Great, I just got much worse! :mg:



Xero said:


> I should get out the tape measure. I thought a paper plate was 9" dia.
> 
> Back from the Archery Barn --
> 
> Cheapo paper plate, flat edged w/ shallow pleats is 9" dia. I have some 10" dia. plates, heavier w/ a printed edge. Also some 6" dia. w/ printed edge. But that's not a signal to move this thread into a discussion of paper plates!


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## bowhunterdave (Dec 1, 2005)

Sanford said:


> I go through tons of nocks and keep plenty spares on hand, but it doesn't stop me from shooting at the same center - that's part of it. That doesn't mean I stack arrow on top of arrow either - just keep them close to the middle.* I can't imagine a claim that some barebow/trad shooter is so good he has to shoot in multiple centers to maintain his arrows. That would be a ridiculous claim! * Sounds more like the legendary "Sumgai" shooter - or, to better interpret as "some guy" I know in English translation!


I shoot cedar POC arrows off a 70lb recurve and if I shoot the same dot for 3 arrows at a time, I will definetly brake or destroy my woodies. I am spot on at 20 yards. Its not a ridiculous claim, its a fact. I can head shoot a gray squirrel at 20 like its a chip shot. I shoot alot and have to use a bag with multi spots or it just gets depressing to destroy such pretty arrows. Push me out to 30+ yards with the curve, and those groups will barely fit on a paper plate, but 20 and under I dont miss any more.


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## Sanford (Jan 26, 2009)

bowhunterdave said:


> I shoot cedar POC arrows off a 70lb recurve and if I shoot the same dot for 3 arrows at a time, I will definetly brake or destroy my woodies. I am spot on at 20 yards. Its not a ridiculous claim, its a fact. I can head shoot a gray squirrel at 20 like its a chip shot. I shoot alot and have to use a bag with multi spots or it just gets depressing to destroy such pretty arrows. Push me out to 30+ yards with the curve, and those groups will barely fit on a paper plate, but 20 and under I dont miss any more.


I don't think any archer alive or ever lived can compete with that, congrats! Look, everyone gets a broken arrow/nock, that's a given. To "require" you to have to move to a multi-spot target is a claim beyond what our archery Halls of Fame even record. For centuries, targets had one bullseye - not till sighted compounds did it get easier enough to require the advent of the multi-spot, but we each can shoot what we like.


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## LBR (Jan 1, 2004)

> Please elaborate...


Ever hear of warm-up targets? They are pretty common at tournaments.



> That's funny because I can spend an entire winter shooting into a single spot at 20yds without going through more than 1 or 2 nocks...


So, if you don't do it then nobody does?



> Now that the usual slander has happened...


Thanks for your contribution.

No more time or inclination to argue with the resident "experts" that nobody ever heard of. Got to pack for the NASP World's. Ya'll have fun.


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## Sanford (Jan 26, 2009)

LBR said:


> No more time or inclination to argue with the resident "experts" that nobody ever heard of. Got to pack for the NASP World's. Ya'll have fun.


Warm up targets, now! What, go to competitions and watch the warmups is the method now. 

Why do you always end your debate with something you need to do volunteering for the kids? Seems a regular ending for you. Lot's of us volunteer to help with adults and kids, but it doesn't require our time to the point we can't finish what we started here. I mean, you had the time to come in and make the claim.


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## bowhunterdave (Dec 1, 2005)

Sanford said:


> *I don't think any archer alive or ever lived can compete with that, congrats! * Look, everyone gets a broken arrow/nock, that's a given. To "require" you to have to move to a multi-spot target is a claim beyond what our archery Halls of Fame even record. For centuries, targets had one bullseye - not till sighted compounds did it get easier enough to require the advent of the multi-spot, but we each can shoot what we like.


C`mon dude, really??!! I`ve never shot in competition and never will, just a farmboy that knows how to shoot......................


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## Sanford (Jan 26, 2009)

Bowhunter, I don't doubt you, never seen you shoot. I take your ability for what you say. It's just fact that no trad or barebow archer ever shot to the level you are describing. That does not exclude you, though.


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## MGF (Oct 27, 2012)

grantmac said:


> That's funny because I can spend an entire winter shooting into a single spot at 20yds without going through more than 1 or 2 nocks and I'm not exactly what you would call a poor shot at 20yds. Neither are all the Trad shooters who actually show-up to Nationals (not me, too much $$), they all pretty much shoot the single spot. Last I checked nobody failed to finish the weekend due to lack of arrows and there were some very impressive scores happening.
> 
> Nothing destroys nocks faster when shooting a single target then arrows which either aren't tuned perfectly or kick when they hit the target. If they are all in there perfectly straight its very unlikely to cause damage. Even less likely if you use a G-nock bushing, the Uni-bushing is too large and does generally attract points.
> 
> ...


I think you hit on something.

My target is a bag of rags and my arrows kick every which way when they hit those rags. Heck, sometimes they just bounce off and land in the dirt. I wreck quite a few nocks. I shoot some pretty good groups but rarely so good that there shouldn't be room for 5 arrows.


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## bowhunterdave (Dec 1, 2005)

Sanford said:


> Bowhunter, I don't doubt you, never seen you shoot. I take your ability for what you say. * It's just fact that no trad or barebow archer ever shot to the level you are describing. * That does not exclude you, though.


I call BS. Plenty of guys shoot better then me. I`m not sure which outdated book you get you so called facts from........ Come squirrel hunting with me sometime, see how many arrows I DONT lose


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## bowhunterdave (Dec 1, 2005)

I`m not the kinda guy who settles for loose groups, I practice hard and do it alot. I dont think I would let anyone hunt on my property that cant shoot spots at 20 yards. 
This thread surprises me, I thought most hardcore trad guys could shoot, but according to Sanford, they all shoot loose groups....... hmmmmmmmmmm......


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## MGF (Oct 27, 2012)

bowhunterdave said:


> I call BS. Plenty of guys shoot better then me. I`m not sure which outdated book you get you so called facts from........ Come squirrel hunting with me sometime, see how many arrows I DONT lose


NJ is pretty far away but I'd love to come squirrel hunting. I don't care about proving you wrong, I just love to hunt squirrels! LOL

I have to admit, though, that when the squirrels are cutting in the tops of really tall trees I sometimes leave the bow at home and take the air rifle.


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## bowhunterdave (Dec 1, 2005)

MGF said:


> NJ is pretty far away but I'd love to come squirrel hunting.* I don't care about proving you wrong,* I just love to hunt squirrels! LOL
> 
> I have to admit, though, that when the squirrels are cutting in the tops of really tall trees I sometimes leave the bow at home and take the air rifle.


I love to squirrel hunt too...... I didnt learn how to shoot to be in competitions, I did it because I have to be the best i can at whatever I do, and I hate putting bad shots on live critters. I`m still surprised that I`m not just average, always thought I was. Never even went to a public range because I assumed most were better and I would be embarrassed. 
If your ever in Jersey, give me a shout and bring your bow.


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## bowhunterdave (Dec 1, 2005)

heres a video of Ron LaClair shooting an aspirin out of the air


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## rsarns (Sep 23, 2008)

bowhunterdave said:


> I shoot cedar POC arrows off a 70lb recurve and if I shoot the same dot for 3 arrows at a time, I will definetly brake or destroy my woodies. I am spot on at 20 yards. Its not a ridiculous claim, its a fact. I can head shoot a gray squirrel at 20 like its a chip shot. I shoot alot and have to use a bag with multi spots or it just gets depressing to destroy such pretty arrows. Push me out to 30+ yards with the curve, and those groups will barely fit on a paper plate, but 20 and under I dont miss any more.


T some outstanding shooting... would, love to have you join us at the Nationals .... someone needs to shoot a 290+ since you NEVER miss...


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## Sanford (Jan 26, 2009)

bowhunterdave said:


> I`m not the kinda guy who settles for loose groups, I practice hard and do it alot. I dont think I would let anyone hunt on my property that cant shoot spots at 20 yards.
> This thread surprises me, I thought most hardcore trad guys could shoot, but according to Sanford, they all shoot loose groups....... hmmmmmmmmmm......


Maybe when folks moved from the woods to standing flat-footed and shooting a circle they just lost their ability to shoot a bow and why we don't see anyone consistently stacking arrows on top of arrows when on the target lines. One of those evolutionary mysteries, I guess  Seriously, would be fun to shoot with you and compare loose groups. Who knows!


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## bowhunterdave (Dec 1, 2005)

rsarns said:


> T some outstanding shooting... would, love to have you join us at the Nationals .... someone needs to shoot a 290+ since you NEVER miss...


Not good with people or crowds, I would choke. I shoot for fun and for hunting. Never even been to a public 3d course. And I did say 20 yards and under I dont miss.


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## bowhunterdave (Dec 1, 2005)

Sanford said:


> Maybe when folks move from the woods to standing flat-footed and shooting a circle they just lost their ability to shoot a bow and why we don't see anyone consistently stacking arrows on top of one another now when on the target lines. One of those evolutionary mysteries, I guess  Seriously, would be fun to shoot with you and compare loose groups. Who knows!


anytime brother, lots of stumps and squirrels here


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## rsarns (Sep 23, 2008)

bowhunterdave said:


> Not good with people or crowds, I would choke. I shoot for fun and for hunting. Never even been to a public 3d course. And I did say 20 yards and under I dont miss.


Indoor nationals is 20 yards... Vegas is 18 Meters... even shorter.... heck since you Never miss should be a cake walk to break 290..... Not taking anything away from your ability... just would like to have more shooters show up! Go to a 3D and watch the Trad crowd... then you will understand that most cannot shoot 20 yards and group at all....


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## bowhunterdave (Dec 1, 2005)

rsarns said:


> Indoor nationals is 20 yards... Vegas is 18 Meters... even shorter.... heck since you Never miss should be a cake walk to break 290.....


Sounds fun. Is there large crowds of people watching? my stomach would be in knots......... I`d be more nervous then If I had a monster buck under me


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## grantmac (May 31, 2007)

Sounds like Longbow scores are about to pass Trad for NFAA indoor if Bowhunterdave comes. Watch out everyone, schools about to be in session.

-Grant


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## rsarns (Sep 23, 2008)

bowhunterdave said:


> Sounds fun. Is there large crowds of people watching? my stomach would be in knots......... I`d be more nervous then If I had a monster buck under me


Yep... there are. A big bull elk at 20 ain't got nothing on this little 40 CM target....


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## bowhunterdave (Dec 1, 2005)

I`d choke, no way I could handle the pressure........ I`ll stick to what I know works for me. A cool country breeze and the sounds of leaves rustling........


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## bowhunterdave (Dec 1, 2005)

grantmac said:


> Sounds like Longbow scores are about to pass Trad for NFAA indoor if Bowhunterdave comes. Watch out everyone, schools about to be in session.
> 
> -Grant


Awesome!! LOL Thx


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## Sanford (Jan 26, 2009)

bowhunterdave said:


> anytime brother, lots of stumps and squirrels here


I know I'm from Texas, but got anything smaller? We shoot small lizards and scorpions for practice here, and anything not in the vitals is totally unacceptable. I might choke on those bigger targets.


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## Xero (Apr 20, 2013)

I'm continually amazed at the threads that take off as compared to the ones that don't. I don't get to shoot with a lot of other archers, and I've been wondering just exactly how tight a group can get. My target objectives these days is a 9" paper plate, and instinctive shooting. I have form and technique issues to refine before I start thinking about actually taking aim at getting the arrows all in the same spot down range.

Four bales stacked on a pallet at the end of the barn (20 yds). I keep the barn door open, because sure as shootin' if I close the door, I'll put an arrow in it. :mg:









This is a SIX INCH PLATE at 20 yds







.


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## dx2 (Aug 25, 2007)

These threads always end the same. 

Let me know if you find any 16" pie plates, Xero....I could use a few. :shade:


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## bowhunterdave (Dec 1, 2005)

Sanford said:


> I know I'm from Texas, but got anything smaller? We shoot small lizards and scorpions for practice here, and anything not in the vitals is totally unacceptable. I might choke on those bigger targets.


I`ve never even seen a scorpion except in a zoo.


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## Xero (Apr 20, 2013)

dx2 said:


> These threads always end the same.
> 
> Let me know if you find any 16" pie plates, Xero....I could use a few. :shade:


16" is the "one ring" on the 20 yd. bare bow target. I made a "compass" for this circle from a length of stick, drilled holes at 6" and 8". Lumber crayon or magic marker, on a cardboard appliance box used as a target face.


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## Lungwurm (Jun 19, 2012)

Xero said:


> This is a SIX INCH PLATE at 20 yds
> 
> View attachment 1696818
> .


Looking good Xero.


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## dx2 (Aug 25, 2007)

Xero said:


> I'm continually amazed at the threads that take off as compared to the ones that don't. I don't get to shoot with a lot of other archers, and I've been wondering just exactly how tight a group can get. My target objectives these days is a 9" paper plate, and instinctive shooting. I have form and technique issues to refine before I start thinking about actually taking aim at getting the arrows all in the same spot down range.
> 
> Four bales stacked on a pallet at the end of the barn (20 yds). I keep the barn door open, because sure as shootin' if I close the door, I'll put an arrow in it. :mg:
> 
> ...


Not bad at all. 

P.S. Sheet metal on a barn will tear up an arrow....don't ask me how I know.


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## Matt_Potter (Apr 13, 2010)

dx2 said:


> Not bad at all.
> 
> P.S. Sheet metal on a barn will tear up an arrow....don't ask me how I know.


Not as bad as your old man will tear you up for shooting rats in the rafters with a 22.

Looked like a lazer show with the beams of light coming down through the dust.

Matt


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## Old Sarge (Sep 9, 2008)

Xero said:


> I'm continually amazed at the threads that take off as compared to the ones that don't. I don't get to shoot with a lot of other archers, and I've been wondering just exactly how tight a group can get. My target objectives these days is a 9" paper plate, and instinctive shooting. I have form and technique issues to refine before I start thinking about actually taking aim at getting the arrows all in the same spot down range.
> 
> Four bales stacked on a pallet at the end of the barn (20 yds). I keep the barn door open, because sure as shootin' if I close the door, I'll put an arrow in it. :mg:
> 
> ...


What method of aiming are you using?


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## Xero (Apr 20, 2013)

Old Sarge said:


> What method of aiming are you using?


Instinctive, look at the target, focus, release. I mix methods a bit, have a solid image in my head about where the arrow/bow should be relative to the target, how it all feels in terms of physical posture. But mostly I focus on the plate and "put the arrow on it." -- It's a Zen thing . . .


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## MGF (Oct 27, 2012)

rsarns said:


> Indoor nationals is 20 yards... Vegas is 18 Meters... even shorter.... heck since you Never miss should be a cake walk to break 290..... Not taking anything away from your ability... just would like to have more shooters show up! Go to a 3D and watch the Trad crowd... then you will understand that most cannot shoot 20 yards and group at all....


In the "old days" I used to attend a lot of shoots and I know what I saw. But I think there's one thing we know for certain and that is that most people don't show up at all. As a former long time engineer, I don't think we have the data we need to draw any reliable conclusions about the archers that don't show up.

I replied here because I recently had a guy on this forum call me a liar over the 300 round scores I posted because I shoot behind the barn...actually I shoot in front of the barn...except I did do some shooting this morning from a ladder stand I have in a tree behind the barn. Hell, I guess I shoot in front of the barn AND behind the barn. LOL but I can't possibly be any good because I shoot around barns?

I do miss sometimes though even at 20 yards.


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## bowhunterdave (Dec 1, 2005)

rsarns said:


> Indoor nationals is 20 yards... Vegas is 18 Meters... even shorter.... heck since you Never miss should be a cake walk to break 290..... Not taking anything away from your ability... just would like to have more shooters show up! Go to a 3D and watch the Trad crowd... then you will understand that most cannot shoot 20 yards and group at all....


was just talking to the gal about possibly trying a local shoot just to test the waters... If what you guys are saying is true, I really could be the next "Happy Gilmore" of Trad shooting


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## bowhunterdave (Dec 1, 2005)

MGF said:


> In the "old days" I used to attend a lot of shoots and I know what I saw. But I think there's one thing we know for certain and that is that most people don't show up at all. As a former long time engineer, I don't think we have the data we need to draw any reliable conclusions about the archers that don't show up.
> 
> I replied here because I recently had a guy on this forum call me a liar over the 300 round scores I posted because I shoot behind the barn...actually I shoot in front of the barn...except I did do some shooting this morning from a ladder stand I have in a tree behind the barn. Hell, I guess I shoot in front of the barn AND behind the barn. LOL but I can't possibly be any good because I shoot around barns?
> 
> I do miss sometimes though even at 20 yards.


I shoot along side my barn..........


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## MGF (Oct 27, 2012)

I find it helpful at times to test what's caused by form errors vs. aiming errors. If your form is perfect but you're always aiming at a different spot, you won't shoot a very good group. Likewise, if your aim is "good" and your form stinks, you won't shoot much of a group. Sometimes I need to sort it out. My experience is that aiming errors result in smaller misses than form errors.


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## Sanford (Jan 26, 2009)

MFG, I find that if form is good, groups will be good, just not where I want. If aim is good but form is not, groups still no good.


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## centershot (Sep 13, 2002)

LBR said:


> I was referring to traditional bows.
> 
> *Good me too.*
> 
> ...


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## MGF (Oct 27, 2012)

Sanford said:


> MFG, I find that if form is good, groups will be good, just not where I want. If aim is good but form is not, groups still no good.


I agree. As I said "My experience is that aiming errors result in smaller misses than form errors."


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## dx2 (Aug 25, 2007)

Matt_Potter said:


> Not as bad as your old man will tear you up for shooting rats in the rafters with a 22.
> 
> *Looked like a lazer show with the beams of light coming down through the dust.*
> 
> Matt


:lol3:


I'm just starting to get in the game of trad shooting....it is no easy game to shoot consistently without sights. I am shooting instinctively because focusing on something other than the target is hard for me. I also want to hunt with it and you normally have to act quick without looking back and forth between the bow and target. Only shooting 2 arrows at a time at 10-12 yards and my instincts are not horrible, but groups are far from good. Have read about gap methods and other point of reference methods but I have a long ways to go before I'm comfortable using them apparently.

Xero, I would be very happy to have that 12 arrow group at 20 yards shooting instinctively. Keep up the good work.


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## Sanford (Jan 26, 2009)

MGF said:


> I agree. As I said "My experience is that aiming errors result in smaller misses than form errors."


I actually aim more off form from a rehearsed distance. What I mean is that my aim is well established and unchangeable only to the point my form affects my aim in head position, anchor, collapse, etc.... If I'm not hitting mark or grouping, I never even think about the aim and only fix by fixing form issues. It might not be the same for all folks, but for me, I never think of having an aiming error, it's just not that much a part of my shot. All my fixes are form related.


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## J. Wesbrock (Dec 17, 2003)

To the original poster, if you can keep all your arrows inside a 6” circle at 20 yards, you are likely in the top half of traditional archers with respect to accuracy.

That being said, I personally know a recurve barebow archer who competes on 3-spot FITA faces. I also know equally proficient or better recurve barebow archers who shoot single spot faces. A lot of it comes down to aiming style and personal preference. If you’re shooting pick-a-point, a single spot face is almost a must. I can guarantee the top single spot archers tear up a good number of arrows every season between busted nocks, shot up fletching, and impacted shafts.


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## Str8 Shooter (Oct 15, 2005)

I'm primarily a hunter and 3D shooter. I set up my stuff for best results inside of 35 yards. I tend to mix up shooting groups at various known distances and walk backs from unknown distances. The known distances is to ingrain the correct holds and the unknown is so I can put it into practice and learn to trust my holds in the field. That said, I expect to hit within a couple inches of my mark. If I'm off more than a couple inches I know I either made a bad shot (L/R) or misjudged the distance. 



I don't normally take pics of groups but I got a new bow and had the camera with me. Four shots at about 26-27 yards. Doesn't happen quite like this every time but if I'm not in the ten ring I know I can do better.


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## Str8 Shooter (Oct 15, 2005)

btw, JRW is right about the 6" group level. A true 6" group would put you at a 240+ on a 300 round. That's a good benchmark for people to shoot for with hunting gear. If you can hold that level or better you have shown your form is consistent. It's certainly possible to shoot higher scores but 240-260 is usually upper end for most guys. Past that you get into the really upper levels of shooting and many folks shoot very specialized setups to push the 270+ range.


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## Old Sarge (Sep 9, 2008)

Xero said:


> Instinctive, look at the target, focus, release. I mix methods a bit, have a solid image in my head about where the arrow/bow should be relative to the target, how it all feels in terms of physical posture. But mostly I focus on the plate and "put the arrow on it." -- It's a Zen thing . . .


Your group is pretty good, especially for someone just starting out. If your intent is to shoot smaller groups at any yardage then here are a couple of suggestions. 
First you have to figure out if you are missing because of form or aiming. A good experiment is to put a sight on your bow temporarily and shoot with that on for a little while. If you can group your arrows (don't have to be in the dot, just grouping together somewhere) then you know your form is relatively consistent and your aiming needs help without the sight on. If you can't group with the sight then it's your form and you need to fix that first. This experiment won't take long and you will be able to figure it out quickly.

If you find that your form is ok but your aiming isn't too hot you can go several routs. Leave the sight on and shoot pretty well relatively quickly as your form gets even better. Or you could try an aiming method such as gapping, POA, etc. of course you can continue to use the force and hope it is with you. I'm not recommending one way or the other but I would advise not to be afraid to experiment with different styles until you find what works best for you. None are more "Trad" than the other so don't let that stumbling block get in your way of improving.
Good luck on your journey.


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## LBR (Jan 1, 2004)

> Warm up targets, now! What, go to competitions and watch the warmups is the method now.


Yes, if you want to verify what I said, that's what you do. 'Course that would require you attending a tournament.



> Why do you always end your debate with something you need to do volunteering for the kids?


Why is sticking to the truth so hard for you? I never said I was volunteering for anything. I'll be at the NASP World's as a vendor. You can contact Michelle H. if you want to verify. You won't.




> Seems a regular ending for you.


Yet another lie.



> Lot's of us volunteer to help with adults and kids, but it doesn't require our time to the point we can't finish what we started here. I mean, you had the time to come in and make the claim.


Really? What do you do? Specifically? And I could really care less what you believe. Here's a novel idea--show up at some of the major NASP events. That way you could verify my presence, plus it would give you the opportunity to call me a liar in person. A win/win for you--right? lol Like that would ever happen.......


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## Longbow Lawyer (Apr 3, 2013)

Fox Triple Crown. ([email protected]")
Hildebrand Sitka spruce (55lb full length 125 gr.)

LBL


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## Xero (Apr 20, 2013)

bowhunterdave said:


> I shoot along side my barn..........


I shoot inside my barn, 20 yards, under cover, out of the rain, lighted. Shooting lines at 10 yds, 15 yds, 20 yds. Center line down the floor so I can line up my feet with the target.

When I let loose a flyer, I pretty much know what I did wrong as soon at it leaves the bow. Started shooting April 20, after a layoff of about 50 yrs. As a kid I was never very serious, kid's 25# straight bow, 25 cent cedar arrows, at a cardboard box on the front lawn, 25 feet maybe. 

When I can consistently put 12/12 on the 9" paper plate at 20 yds, then maybe I'll start thinking about aiming methods. For now I'm mostly working on form/technique, and tuning a plunger on a new Sebastian Flute Forged. -- And final affidavits on a Vets Admin appeal/hearing.

Looking at this photo again. It's a *NINE INCH PLATE*. I have 6" plates, and they all look alike in the photos.


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## bowhunterdave (Dec 1, 2005)

Xero said:


> I shoot inside my barn, 20 yards, under cover, out of the rain, lighted. Shooting lines at 10 yds, 15 yds, 20 yds. Center line down the floor so I can line up my feet with the target.
> 
> When I let loose a flyer, I pretty much know what I did wrong as soon at it leaves the bow. Started shooting April 20, after a layoff of about 50 yrs. As a kid I was never very serious, kid's 25# straight bow, 25 cent cedar arrows, at a cardboard box on the front lawn, 25 feet maybe.
> 
> ...


your groups are very spread out because your aiming at a 9 inch target mentally. You need to focus on a dime size spot and your arrows will fly there.


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## Long Rifle (Dec 8, 2011)

Xero, bowhunterdave is correct and if your shooting lane is inside a barn you have a plastic roofing tab nail somewhere. Stick one in the very center of that paper plate, focus on that, and watch your groups tighten up.

Aim small, miss small.....


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## Long Rifle (Dec 8, 2011)

There's one now buried inside this bale, shot from 20 yards a few minutes ago with my Warf....


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## Sanford (Jan 26, 2009)

J. Wesbrock said:


> To the original poster, if you can keep all your arrows inside a 6” circle at 20 yards, you are likely in the top half of traditional archers with respect to accuracy.
> 
> That being said, I personally know a recurve barebow archer who competes on 3-spot FITA faces. I also know equally proficient or better recurve barebow archers who shoot single spot faces. A lot of it comes down to aiming style and personal preference. If you’re shooting pick-a-point, a single spot face is almost a must. I can guarantee the top single spot archers tear up a good number of arrows every season between busted nocks, shot up fletching, and impacted shafts.


You know what's odd about this, JW. In shooting around all levels of archers, it also appears that new folks tend to get a good number of robinhoods (they all love them and pose in picture almost every time), and they destroy nocks and fletch as well. Then, we have that most top notch archers are probably throwing per week 3x or 4x the number of arrows as the new folks. With that high-level competition shooter, given the more arrows in total thrown, the incident rate really doesn't seem that out of line with the former, the new guy. IOW, all in all, considering the dispersion difference, different number of arrows thrown by each, and the rate of arrow hits, each is still within an almost equivalent rate of randomness, considering. 

I guess what I mean to say is that I've yet to see the dispersion rate on paper, in person or on National scores, that equals the guy who can't shoot a single spot because it costs him too many arrows. That does not preclude the guy who doesn't shoot a single spot because he "might" lose an arrow or two and chooses a multi-spot, but again, given the randomness of events, that also applies to anyone at any level. There's a huge difference between a single spot 280 in Trad in hole-dispersion in the paper and a 300-60x compound score.


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## Xero (Apr 20, 2013)

Long Rifle said:


> Xero, bowhunterdave is correct and if your shooting lane is inside a barn you have a plastic roofing tab nail somewhere. Stick one in the very center of that paper plate, focus on that, and watch your groups tighten up.
> 
> Aim small, miss small.....


Yeah, well . . . I have a staple in the center of the plate. I can see it, focus on it. But I'm aware that I need to tune the equipment a bit, and then polish my technique. My technique gets a bit ratty in fits and bursts.


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## LBR (Jan 1, 2004)

> I can guarantee the top single spot archers tear up a good number of arrows every season between busted nocks, shot up fletching, and impacted shafts.


Thanks Jason--although common sense would tell us this, if common sense were applied.


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## grantmac (May 31, 2007)

Shooting the 3-spot for Vegas/FITA makes a lot of sense given the points you can lose from kick-outs (smaller scoring zones) and also that each spot goes down to the 6 ring (slightly larger than the 4 ring in the NFAA target).
Shooting the 5-spot for NFAA doesn't have the same benefit though with the much larger scoring zones. Seems like it should be opposite given then number of arrows in play, but the truth is nobody is shooting the 5-spot at higher levels of competition in the Trad class. Instead good competitors are choosing arrows which are durable and have nocks (or bushings) which cause the least deflection possible during a rear collision.
I've shot, and have seen shot, many 25-5x ends using "fat" shafts on the 1-spot face (series 22GT or 2314 for me). I believe I even watched Rsarns squeeze 2712s into a 25-5x a couple of times, but that had a lot of shaft slapping.
The only time I've seen an archer wreck a bunch of arrows on the 1-spot was when Ren was using CXL Pros, which are not a very durably shaft and have a rather steep slope on their nocks.

With an ICS diameter carbon or 20xx aluminum a person shouldn't have any issue shooting 25-5x ends without damaging arrows. Which seems to be what most shoot for 3D.

So I'm wondering where these masses of archers who can't shoot at the same spot 3 times are? Because they definitely aren't at indoor Nationals and I'm not convinced that they exist anywhere but in a few people's head.

-Grant


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## J. Wesbrock (Dec 17, 2003)

Sanford,

I really don’t need a statistical analysis of a double blind study using scientific method to know that as an archer shoots his or her arrows increasingly close to each other—i.e. tighter groups —the likelihood of shooting those arrows into each other increases. This seems a somewhat odd thing to have to explain to a fellow archer.


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## Sanford (Jan 26, 2009)

J. Wesbrock said:


> Sanford,
> 
> I really don’t need a statistical analysis of a double blind study using scientific method to know that as an archer shoots his or her arrows increasingly close to each other—i.e. tighter groups —the likelihood of shooting those arrows into each other increases. This seems a somewhat odd thing to have to explain to a fellow archer.


That's true to a point. It's back to the Trad archer who "can't" regularly shoot a single spot because he tears up too many arrows - that archer that has not been named yet. My point was that an archer who shoots every single day and shoots in the 270's is probably not going to be buying any more arrows than the guy who can hold a 10" pattern or less.

Yes, we all bust up some nocks here and there and sometimes pretty regular, but the statistical scaling of the dispersion distances v. number of arrow shot by each is not that much different between the two archers as it is between Trad and Freeestyle compound, where yes, arrow damage is a real monetary concern. Grant said it best if we need a blind study.


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## LBR (Jan 1, 2004)

> So I'm wondering where these masses of archers who can't shoot at the same spot 3 times are?


Seems there is an embellishment virus going around--can't make a point using what was actually said, so modify it to the point you can?

Who said there were "masses" that "can't" shoot at the same spot *3* times? I said I know some good shooters who don't shoot groups (for practice) because they tend to ruin arrows.




> Because they definitely aren't at indoor Nationals and I'm not convinced that they exist anywhere but in a few people's head.


As best I recall, nobody cares if they convince you of anything. I certainly don't. 




> This seems a somewhat odd thing to have to explain to a fellow archer.


Serious question Jason. Have you ever been mezmerized watching a really good archer at work? I know I've found myself in awe more than once, watching a really good shot on the practice bale...and when that happens, I'm usually part of a group doing the same thing.


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## J. Wesbrock (Dec 17, 2003)

Sanford,

Please accept my apologies. I thought you were disagreeing with what I actually posted. Since I never took the position against which you are arguing, I trust you’ll understand my confusion as to why you’re addressing me about it. Truthfully, I have no desire to get drawn into whatever argument you have going on with Chad this week.


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## LBR (Jan 1, 2004)

> It's back to the Trad archer who "can't" regularly shoot a single spot because he tears up too many arrows...


Funny how those who the same as called me a liar keep getting caught in their own lies. I never said "can't". To imply that I did is a blatent lie. Par for the course. 



> My point was that an archer who shoots every single day and shoots in the 270's is probably not going to be buying any more arrows than the guy who can hold a 10" pattern or less.


A "point" based on nothing more than an over-active imagination and a burning desparation to try and "prove" me wrong at every turn, no matter how idiotic or dishonest you have to behave in your attempts to reach your goal.


Someone who shoots every single day averaging in the 270's won't destroy any more arrows than someone shooting a 10" group. Really? :set1_rolf2: :lie: :bs: :crazy:

You drive my point home better than I can--thanks!


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## LBR (Jan 1, 2004)

This is plain stupid. I post a simple observation, based on over 2 decades of experience...and no less than three of the usual suspects can't wait to jump me in a desparate attempt to discredit me any way possible. Archers helping archers.


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## UrbanDeerSlayer (Feb 10, 2012)

bowhunterdave said:


> I`d choke, no way I could handle the pressure........ I`ll stick to what I know works for me. A cool country breeze and the sounds of leaves rustling........


I hear ya. I don't shoot at the same spot with my good woodies anymore after breaking a few. Now, I don't claim to hit the same spot every shot, but when in a zone I have put them right next to each other out to 25 yards, and nothing makes me wanna cry like busting one of my good cedar arrows. Carbon arrows can take a lot more abuse. 

Currently, I'm in the middle of shooting this years IBO 3D National Triple Crown, LongBow (LB) division with wood arrows. In the IBO environment my typical score has dropped 10-15%, not so much because its harder, but because I put stress on myself to perform well and get off my game. At home its fun and relaxed, at a tournament there's crowds, waiting, and stress. The LB division is very thin as far as competition goes. THere's a couple guys who are incredible shots, then there's the rest of us shlubs trying to keep up :smile:

Back to the OP, I try to keep my groups in a 4" circle out to 25 yds. This is my way of trying to group inside the 10 ring of a typical 3D target. Some days are better than others, but I'm finding by aiming small, I miss small.


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## Sanford (Jan 26, 2009)

J. Wesbrock said:


> Sanford,
> 
> Please accept my apologies. I thought you were disagreeing with what I actually posted. Since I never took the position against which you are arguing, I trust you’ll understand my confusion as to why you’re addressing me about it. Truthfully, I have no desire to get drawn into whatever argument you have going on with Chad this week.


Man, no apologies needed. Sure, a lot of what goes on with him is just left over from days gone when Barney thought was going to clean up Mayberry BUT does not involve most folks, so I will be extra careful to stay on your topic at hand and address "you" only when I respond to your posts. I think that will help with confusion.


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## grantmac (May 31, 2007)

LBR said:


> Funny how those who the same as called me a liar keep getting caught in their own lies. I never said "can't". To imply that I did is a blatent lie. Par for the course.
> 
> A "point" based on nothing more than an over-active imagination and a burning desparation to try and "prove" me wrong at every turn, no matter how idiotic or dishonest you have to behave in your attempts to reach your goal.


So you didn't say this back on page 1:


LBR said:


> The better shots I know don't shoot 20 yd groups much if at all--they destroy too many arrows. One or two arrows per spot.


Because as I've stated: the best shots I know will pound 5 arrows into the same spot all indoor season long and they might break some nocks and damage a few feathers, those shooters would be National competitors btw. I went two indoor seasons with 1 refletch and exactly 2 nocks total, no shafts damaged. Last I checked my State indoor record was still standing.


-Grant


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## LBR (Jan 1, 2004)

> Sure, a lot of what goes on with him is just left over from days gone when Barney thought was going to clean up Mayberry...


:lie: :bs:



> So you didn't say this back on page 1:


Yes I did--which is not close to what you accused me of saying. Another one lacking the integrety to own up to false accusations.



> I went two indoor seasons with 1 refletch and exactly 2 nocks total, no shafts damaged.


Of course you did.


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## Matt_Potter (Apr 13, 2010)

This whole conversation is sort of silly. 

I shoot 3 spot fita both to not beat up arrows and avoid kick outs. No big deal I know several other archers that do the same. 

I shot 3 spot at our state shoot, not well, but they all scored. If I ever make it to Vegas I'll shoot 3 spot there as well - why chance a kick out?

Matt


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## itbeso (Jul 6, 2005)

Matt_Potter said:


> This whole conversation is sort of silly.
> 
> I shoot 3 spot fita both to not beat up arrows and avoid kick outs. No big deal I know several other archers that do the same.
> 
> ...


Because the more arrows you shoot into the same cluster, the better chance you have of shooting a "group", silly rabbitt. And shooting groups is empowering, how impressive is a one arrow group. Shame on you Mr. Potter.


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