# "Real Deal" Broadhead Testing Round 1!



## sethro02

Ok I know there are plenty of threads started on shooting broadheads into stuff(including myself) but i want to take it a step further and to do something as realistic as i can get with stuff around the house. If you have any suggestions, i am open ears but I am a little limited to what i can get so keep it realistic. My plan is 1st, 1/4" plywood (front wrapped in marine grade vinyl) this is to take place of skin and ribs. I have thought about the thickness of the wood over and over and 1/2" just seems to thick for ribs...whitetail deer ribs are soft in my opinion so thats why i chose that. 2nd Ballistics gel 8-10" thick. i doubled up the packets to make it a little more "tougher", it is in the fridge now! this is to take place of organs etc. 3rd another sheet of 1/4" plywood for opposite side ribs, that is also wrapped on one side with marine grade vinyl. If someone has an idea of something else i could put between the plywood and gel, let me know. I feel like i may be missing something, although a pass through does not take much on a double lung shot, this i why i have chose this set up so far. I still want this to be as close to real as possible. Also i will gladly accept donations for this testing, i have spent a ton of money on different arrow and broadhead set ups. so if i never get to your broadhead either suggest it or donate it... this may be ongoing for a bit but i will do everything as quick as possible. also this first round will only allow about 4 to 5 seperate shots do to the height and width of the gelatin.

Round one set up:
2011 PSE Axe 6, ibo 337-345, set at 52# (draw weight will stay the same throughout)

Arrow: easton axis nfused 340 spine, 28" 430 grains with head. 270 fps, 69ftlbs of K.E

Heads tested in first round:
1. Trophy Taker Ulmer Edge 100 grain
2. Steelforce Sabertooth SS 100 grain
3. G5 Montec SS 100 Grain
4.?
5.?

Their are question marks on 4 and 5 because i have yet to decide those. Stay tuned, building everything up today, should start testing tomorrow afternooon. If this interests you then great! If not, no need for negativity. I know we do not "hunt" plywood. Like I said I am doing my best to make it halfway realistic so suggestions are encouraged.


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## sethro02

Forgot to mention, I am thinking 30yard shots....some people take 20 yard shots, some people take 40 yard shots and farther so I am thinking a happy medium


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## Quikhonda

Try the new rage chisel tip.


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## Roskoes

This sounds like a pretty reasonable test. Although I would be pretty surprised if any broadhead "failed" on an optimum scenario test like this one. It's what the broadhead does on the less-than-optimum scenario that interests me.


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## sethro02

so what would you consider reasonable thickness to act like shoulder? i just dont want a test where everybroadhead"fails" i would like to see the performance of them for the most part. maybe 1/2"?


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## sethro02

I may purchase the new rages since they are very popular.


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## kylecurtis04

g5 t3? slick trick mags? muzzy mx-3? grim reaper? just some ideas.


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## huntin4Christ

I would be interested in seeing a swhacker. I have been thinking about trying them.


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## jsnole

RamCats should be tested, great heads and have done well in other tests.


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## sethro02

ok i will check my stash ( money stash that is!)

I should mention if you donate a head for testing you WILL get it back! I will not keep it, i will ship it out in the condition in which it is after the testing. thanks for the interest guys, im excited. this is what happens when the wife goes out of town for 4 days!!!


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## blind squirrel

i like it. This seem like an excellent way to evaluate penetration while talking into consideration differences in broadheads (cut diameter, number of blades etc.). Since you asked... one thing i would suggest is shooting each head multiple times (twice is good, but three times is better). This will demonstrate consistency in penetration... since plywood is generally not completely uniform (if you only shoot each head once, you wont know if the head hit a soft spot = great penetration, or a hard spot = poor penetration). i guess if all of the heads are complete pass-throughs than this might not be necessary to evaluate penetration? There was a guy on a different website that used to evaluate heads on multiple categories such as blade sharpness (out of the package), cut diameter, durability (no blades bent or broken during testing), accuracy relative to a fieldpoint, ability for a mechanical to open completely when shot through an orange. Each category would have a rating scale, then he would add up the points to give an overall rating and also summarize what he thought about the broadhead. Looking forward to your results. :thumbs_up


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## sethro02

you make a valid point on the wood. i too have seen that test you are talking about. i will be grading on a point scale as well but since i will video tape it all you guys can also judge it for yourself as well. i may bump it up to 3/8" plywood to make it a little tougher to penetrate. i cant do much about weak spots in the wood. i do not want them all to pass through but i do not want it to be impossible.


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## Roskoes

We did some testing once on some "less lethal" shotgun rounds. Wanted to see if they could break ribs. The coroner advised 3/8" plywood. Testing on the plywood seemed to hold up later when they were used on live subjects. So 3/8" would probably be good.


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## NYbuck50

vipertrick


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## sethro02

thanks for info. 3/8" it is then. keep it coming!


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## DeerHuntin79923

I would like to see NAP 2 Blade Bloodrunners tested.


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## sethro02

ok, so far current wish list of broadheads:
nap blood runner 2 blade
rage chisel
t3 
st mags
mx3
grim reaper
schwacker
ramcats
viper tricks


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## Timber Troll

Sounds like a great test. I'd love to see the Tru Fire T1 and the Steelhead XL compared to others. PM me an address and I'll send a couple to beat up. No need to return them.


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## sethro02

pm's answered!


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## completepassthru

If your broadhead will go through 1/4in. plywood it will go through a deer shoulder without a doubt. One thing about plywood is it will not shatter like a bone will enhancing penetration.


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## 64220511473out!

sethro02 said:


> you make a valid point on the wood. i too have seen that test you are talking about. i will be grading on a point scale as well but since i will video tape it all you guys can also judge it for yourself as well. i may bump it up to 3/8" plywood to make it a little tougher to penetrate. i cant do much about weak spots in the wood. i do not want them all to pass through but i do not want it to be impossible.


How about 1/2" sheetrock, it's cheaper and probably more similar to a deer's ribs. Plywood is too hard


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## sethro02

would 1/4" plywood be about the same as 1/2" sheetrock? i figured sheet rock would be more hard


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## Michael Myers

sethro02 said:


> Ok I know there are plenty of threads started on shooting broadheads into stuff(including myself) but i want to take it a step further and to do something as realistic as i can get with stuff around the house. If you have any suggestions, i am open ears but I am a little limited to what i can get so keep it realistic. My plan is 1st, 1/4" plywood (front wrapped in marine grade vinyl) this is to take place of skin and ribs. I have thought about the thickness of the wood over and over and 1/2" just seems to thick for ribs...whitetail deer ribs are soft in my opinion so thats why i chose that. 2nd Ballistics gel 8-10" thick. i doubled up the packets to make it a little more "tougher", it is in the fridge now! this is to take place of organs etc. 3rd another sheet of 1/4" plywood for opposite side ribs, that is also wrapped on one side with marine grade vinyl. If someone has an idea of something else i could put between the plywood and gel, let me know. I feel like i may be missing something, although a pass through does not take much on a double lung shot, this i why i have chose this set up so far. I still want this to be as close to real as possible. Also i will gladly accept donations for this testing, i have spent a ton of money on different arrow and broadhead set ups. so if i never get to your broadhead either suggest it or donate it... this may be ongoing for a bit but i will do everything as quick as possible. also this first round will only allow about 4 to 5 seperate shots do to the height and width of the gelatin.
> 
> Round one set up:
> 2011 PSE Axe 6, ibo 337-345, set at 52# (draw weight will stay the same throughout)
> 
> Arrow: easton axis nfused 340 spine, 28" 430 grains with head. 270 fps, 69ftlbs of K.E
> 
> Heads tested in first round:
> 1. Trophy Taker Ulmer Edge 100 grain
> 2. Steelforce Sabertooth SS 100 grain
> 3. G5 Montec SS 100 Grain
> 4.?
> 5.?
> 
> Their are question marks on 4 and 5 because i have yet to decide those. Stay tuned, building everything up today, should start testing tomorrow afternooon. If this interests you then great! If not, no need for negativity. I know we do not "hunt" plywood. Like I said I am doing my best to make it halfway realistic so suggestions are encouraged.


Hey,Whats your draw length?How come you prefer shooting Easton Axis N-Fused 340's?I am shootin 400's set at 60 Lbs and a 28" Draw with an axe 6,My Arrows are 29",Thats why i ask.My bow is a Tac driver and hits Very hard.Cheers,Grizz


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## sethro02

its 29",,,i shoot 400's,, i just have some 340's i dont use so im adding a footer up front to weaken it a bit. it will come in around 440 grains.


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## sethro02

i also may use gold tip 400 spine's that will come in around 375 since so many people like light arrows, it seems to be quite popular


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## Michael Myers

sethro02 said:


> its 29",,,i shoot 400's,, i just have some 340's i dont use so im adding a footer up front to weaken it a bit. it will come in around 440 grains.


I See,Well good luck on your Broadhead test...Grizz


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## sethro02

thanks


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## jlh42581

Magnus stinger


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## chirohunter73

Like to see new Killzone, seems to be some mixed reviews on it. maybe the guy from solid broadheads will send you one to try in the test.


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## sethro02

ok great


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## lkmn

Lets see a VPA Rayzor


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## TauntoHawk

I'd like to see QAD Exodus tested since they are newer but have been proving themselves in durablity and penetration but I understand not being able to afford a pile of broadheads too


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## sethro02

the vpa guy is on here all the time. maybe he will send one to prove they would dominate like everyone sais they do. 
Update:
The gelatin is curing for tomorrow!


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## Timinator

QAD Exodus


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## sethro02

pm's answered! 2nd vote for qad, i better go buy those.


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## Wolfey

sethro02 said:


> you make a valid point on the wood. i too have seen that test you are talking about. i will be grading on a point scale as well but since i will video tape it all you guys can also judge it for yourself as well. i may bump it up to 3/8" plywood to make it a little tougher to penetrate. i cant do much about weak spots in the wood. i do not want them all to pass through but i do not want it to be impossible.


Don't use plywood. Get a piece of 3/8" mdf(medium density fiberboard). It doesn't have weak spots like plywood and is a way more consistent medium to shoot through. U can usually get it pretty cheap at menards or any wood store


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## sethro02

ok i am familiar with that, thank you for the input. i will check it out tomorrow.


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## bowtech88swack

interested in the out come


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## hedp

.


Ramcats


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## Carolinabowman

Try the new Ramcat. i've head great things and intend to try them this season.


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## k&j8

How about the new shuttle t black ops


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## 0nepin

I would like you to test the franken rage I put together but I'm not sure you have the ke that it would require , I'm shooting them out an 86lb omen or an 82lb xforce..is this test going to be about penatration or carnage?the head that I would send you is a rage titanium with either turkey or extreme blades installed.I think the rage chisel would be interesting.


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## sethro02

as this will get a bit expensive which i am fine with i think it would be best to start with the most "popular" heads perhaps. because i doubt a bunch of you use steelforce sabertooth's! which i love! but this isnt about me.
Mechanicals tested first:
1. rage chisel 2 blade
2. nap killzone trophy tip
3. trophy taker ulmer edge 
4.g5 t3

These will be the first official heads tested! Should be Friday!


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## sethro02

the official list of fixed blades has yet to be determined, but for sure it will include
1. slick tricks
2. ramcats
3. qad exodus


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## sethro02

i can definately make it so i have the power to shoot that! i thought about building one too! if you send it, i will test it and send it back! i would even re sharpen it for you! I would crank my bow up to 60lbs and shoot a full metal jacket with it


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## sethro02

to answer your other question its more about penetration, but extra carnage will score way more points!


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## 0nepin

sethro02 said:


> i can definately make it so i have the power to shoot that! i thought about building one too! if you send it, i will test it and send it back! i would even re sharpen it for you! I would crank my bow up to 60lbs and shoot a full metal jacket with it


Pm your address and I will send one to you tomarrow .


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## sethro02

pm's answered!


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## CamoCop

sethro02 said:


> as this will get a bit expensive which i am fine with i think it would be best to start with the most "popular" heads perhaps. because i doubt a bunch of you use steelforce sabertooth's! which i love! but this isnt about me.
> Mechanicals tested first:
> 1. rage chisel 2 blade
> 2. nap killzone trophy tip
> 3. trophy taker ulmer edge
> 4.g5 t3
> 
> These will be the first official heads tested! Should be Friday!


Grim Reapers are way more popular than the NAP and Trophy Taker heads. i can't wait to see the results. every professional test i have seen, the expandables out perform the fixed heads hands down in all areas except durability (being able to just resharpen and reuse).


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## sethro02

my bad on the grims i was just talking about the newer one's that were getting marketed a little more than others. grimreapers will definately be tested! typically yes mechanicals out penetrate, i have my own theories but for now we will let the testing do the talkiing


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## perryhunter4

I would like to see the new Solid Broadhead in the test as well, I am guessing the owner would send you one (Steve Speck - S&S Archery)...he is a good guy. I would also ask if you could do angling test......for example shoot it like an quarter angling away shot. Sounds like a fun time. I would have some buddies over and have beer and steaks on the grill too :beer:


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## 0nepin

Do you want to throw a hellrazor in the mix with the fixed? I have extras.


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## sethro02

yes sir hellrazor would be a nice one.


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## sethro02

yes it will be fun! i will work on the angles!


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## sethro02

the reason i am leaning towards thicker medium in front and in back is simply because right now i am making gelatin only about 8" thick. but when you think about, how much more reistance is 5 more inches of gelatin anyways? not much i dont think.


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## bucknut1

steelheads


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## sethro02

i have a steelhead xl coming


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## sethro02

here is a couple of pics of the holder for the medium and the gelatin. carpentry skills weren't the greatest but it should do.


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## sethro02

sorry about sideways pics i will change it next time


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## sethro02




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## Bmass34

Very excited about the G5 T3! Really looking forward to that and the exodus. Thanks Sethro02! Should be a good time


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## sethro02

no problem buddy. im super excited!


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## sethro02

Ok guys, couple things have changed. due to the extreme heat their is no way i could do this outside, the gelatin will just melt away so...plan B. this will be set up in my garage and will be shot at exactly 20 yards. i wanted to do 30 yards but it is suppose to be 104 degrees for the next week! so therefore every head will be shot at 20 yards! Todays broadheads tested may not be video taped, only pictures, sorry for the inconveniance. Today's line up will still be the same:

1. rage chisel 2 blade
2. G5 t3
3. Trophy Taker Ulmer Edge
4. Nap killzone ( if i have enough gelatin)


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## sethro02

REMINDER:
All of these heads will be for sale for a good price after testing !!!!!!!


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## sethro02

I am only testing one head out of every pack so there will be 2 brand new heads you would get as well!!!!


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## sethro02

Pm's answered!


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## Rabbit

sethro02 said:


> I am only testing one head out of every pack so there will be 2 brand new heads you would get as well!!!!


Keep us posted...thanks for your time and effort!


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## sethro02

i will your welcome!


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## 09blackonblack

I would take the rage chisels when your done...


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## TauntoHawk

super pumped to see how the Mechs do.. you are test my entire list of what I'd considering shooting along with my QAD Exodus which I know will be along on every hunt again this year

Big Thanks for all your work!!!


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## sethro02

Hey no problem...heading to gander mtn now...these broadheads are gonna put up or shut up! Lol


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## blind squirrel

Looks awesome. Looking forward to seeing your results. i liked the idea of two pieces of 1/4" plywood with the gel in the middle, but i guess if all of the arrows get a passthrough, it might not give you as much info. i think as the plywood gets thicker, it becomes less representative of a deer rib cage and most likely, broadhead blades will start to break. This can give interesting info too, but at some point most heads will fail (steel drum, concrete, 2x4, etc.). It would add to the cost and effort, but maybe two rounds of testing would be possible? i would be impressed with a large cut mech head that opened on contact and passed through both pieces of 1/4" plywood without breaking a blade. But if there were two similar heads and one broke when shot through thicker (maybe 3/8") plywood and the other one didn't break... i would think that would be valuable info too... to find out where some heads start to fail and others hold up. Either way.... it's gonna be interesting.
Thanks for the effort!


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## sethro02

We r using 3/8" md fiberboard...i will shoot two broadheads maximum then replace boards and gel...hopefully the fiberboard does not allow easy passthroughs...u will know today!


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## sethro02

Sorry for another update...we are officially using 3/8" Plywood!!!!! I broke a piece of 1/2" fiberboard with two fingers! 1/2 plywood was too thick...1/4" is to thin so in my opinion this will be close!


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## sethro02

We r using 3/8" md fiberboard...i will shoot two broadheads maximum then replace boards and gel...hopefully the fiberboard does not allow easy passthroughs...u will know today!


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## sethro02

My phone sux...the plywood post is most recent!


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## ozarksbuckslaye

Test them by shooting them into real live animals. That's what us real hunters do and none of us give two hoots about these kind of little gay tests. The proof is in the puddin' and if you ain't got no puddin' you aint got no proof. Go find a whole bunch of puddins' and kill em' dead with a variety of different heads, then come back and tell us what you've learned.


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## sethro02

Congrats your the firsy hater


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## jacobh

When's the test start? Is like to see how the rage chisel tip holds up? Thanks


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## sethro02

Today! After lunch!


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## awaldron4jesus

I would like to see the 125 grain 1 3/4 grimreaper and how its performs


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## Karbon

Killzone


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## sethro02

Ok great...sorry closest gander didnt have killzone but I will get it!


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## kylecurtis04

looking forward to the results.


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## sethro02

Pm's answered


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## TP63

Great thread...can't wait to see results...how about nap spitfires


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## sethro02

ok here is the mechanicals round 1 line up:
1. Rage chisel 2 blade
2. G5 t3
3. TT Ulmer Edge

Scoring is as follows:
penetration score 1-28 (arrows are 28 inches)
durability 1-5 (did it break or bend)
dependability 1-5 (did it work properly, can you use it again?)
sharpness before testing 1-5 (1= butterknife, 5=shaving hair)
sharpness after testing 1-5 (1=butterknife, 5=shaving hair)
flight 1-5 (noise, point of impact where aiming)
we will total the scores and i will post them with pics. at the end of all this i will have the long list with every head on it.

Equipment
pse axe 6, 52 lbs.
axis nfused 440 grains
270 fps, 70ke,
i believe 270fps is an average hunting speed that is why i am using that. this will not change throughout test. 
layers are:
marine vinyl
3/8" ply
ballistics gel 8-9"
3/8" ply
marine vinyl


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## chaded

You haven't shot yet?


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## sethro02

doing it now


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## sethro02

had to feed baby! fatherly duties!


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## Quikhonda

nice im curious to see what the rage does.. I love the 2 blade but the chisel tip looks like enhanced death feature for killing deer through rib or shoulder.


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## sethro02

rage chisel 2 blade results:
Penetration- 8
durability-3 (blades bent slighty)
dependability- 5 (fully deployed)
sharp before- 5
sharp after- 3
flight- 5 
total score= 29 out of 53


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## sethro02

working on the rest of pics. this forum lets me upload on its own terms!!!


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## sethro02

t3 results:
penetration- 8
durability-0 fail
dependability-4 (almost fully deployed)
sharp before- 5
sharp after- 4
flight- 5
total score- 26 out of 53


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## jacobh

Awesome looks like a great test. I love all the rage bashing and so far out of the 2 the rage didnt fail.and the steel Bh did. Well guys there goes the alum. Vs steel theory.


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## sethro02

Trophy Taker Ulmer Edge Results
penetration- 28!!! ( full pass through)
durability- 3 (blades slightly bent)
dependability- 5 (fully opened)
sharp before- 1 (supposedly they fixed this problem?)
sharp after- 1 
flight- 5
total score= 43 out of 53!


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## sethro02

yeah wait til you see the after math


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## sethro02

what is up with uploading on here? sometimes it works sometimes it doesnt!


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## sethro02

AFTERMATH
guys im really trying to post entrance and exit holes and all that, bare with me.


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## jkm97

I wish they would make the Ulmer head in 125...I can't believe you got a passthrough with it. I would like to see that duplicated. (Not saying I don't trust your results, just wondering if it was a fluke considering the 8" penetration of the other two heads.)


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## sethro02

ulmer edge pass through!


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## sethro02

i did duplicate because i missed with ballistics the first time! shot another NEW one and same thing again


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## sethro02

each head wasnt even close to touching the other when i was shooting. i meant to keep them apart a little so no "weak " spots


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## rick prather

perryhunter4 said:


> I would like to see the new Solid Broadhead in the test as well, I am guessing the owner would send you one (Steve Speck - S&S Archery)...he is a good guy. I would also ask if you could do angling test......for example shoot it like an quarter angling away shot. Sounds like a fun time. I would have some buddies over and have beer and steaks on the grill too :beer:


now that would be expensive!!!!


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## 3dn4jc

jacobh said:


> Awesome looks like a great test. I love all the rage bashing and so far out of the 2 the rage didnt fail.and the steel Bh did. Well guys there goes the alum. Vs steel theory.


I'll still take a T3 chunk over a sliver, a pass thru is a pass thru but i prefer 3 cuts. JMO


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## sethro02

rage chisel Ballistics exit hole. 2.25"


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## sethro02

i dont know man its a pretty big sliver!!!


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## sethro02

t3 exit ballistics


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## sethro02

Ulmer Edge Exit!


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## sethro02

here is your Rage ballistics entry hole!!!! what a small sliver!


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## sethro02

can i get my money back on T3's? I'll be like " hey man my broadhead didnt come with any blades?!....j/k


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## Guest

Well, I been saying i am going to shoot a Mech this year and the new rage is looking pretty good.


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## sethro02

my personal assumption on the pass through, this is just my opinion!!! t3, 1 more blade to push through takes a little more energy, the rage, too much drag on that new chisel tip, like the way it flares out and the farrel is a little bulky compared to the ulmer. the ulmer is just more streamlined up front and the way the blades engage is close to a rage but its also just an 1.5". Maybe a rage chisel with 40 ke blades would passthrough?!?!?


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## sethro02

yeah when it comes to carnage i would say rage did the job on that. over 2" thats crazy, and it didnt break


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## kdog23

way cool cant wait to see the fixed head test! Would love to have seen a spitfire.


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## sethro02

if it matters the T3 blades that i found were not broke or bent. they came off the ferrule and spider clip was destroyed. even with the washer on it the blades still came off


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## sethro02

spitfires will be coming soon...


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## sethro02

may do first round fixed blades today


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## kylecurtis04

sethro02 said:


> if it matters the T3 blades that i found were not broke or bent. they came off the ferrule and spider clip was destroyed. even with the washer on it the blades still came off


thats odd. blue or red spider clip?


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## sethro02

blue,,,sent you a pm


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## WisBuckHunter94

Hey i just wanna say thanks for doing this, been waiting for someone to do this and really interested in the results! I remember a forum of someone going to do this on a much larger scale a year or so ago, and some of the broad head companies ended up contacting the person conducting the testers and supposedly told them not to publish the results on their broad head and if they did and it was negative there would be repercussions.. Thought it was a load of crap but never saw the thread continue so maybe something happened, but oh well. Thanks again for the testing and quick responses and feed back and i cant wait to see what you come up with at the end of this!


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## sethro02

they did exactly what my old tekans use to do through tough mediums. they always had the blades come out the bottom of the ferrule


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## sethro02

i never seen that thread! this is real testing to me. if you dont want your broadhead tested then to me you are hiding something. no we dont shoot through this stuff when we hunt but 1 its cool 2 we cant go buy deer and shoot them and 3 i want you guys to know what your buying. some people on here cant go out and buy every head to see which one suits them best, so that is why i am here! Im the workin man's broadhead tester!


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## teamorion22

very cool thread. thanks for doing this. looking forward to seeing how the mx3's do. have had success with them and plan on sticking with them


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## sethro02

they are very good heads


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## sethro02

Ok here we go! First Round Fixed blade heads! All these heads have been spin tested prior to testing!
1. Steelforce Sabertooth SS. (my head of choice this year.....maybe)
2.Steelforce Phathead
3. G5 Montec SS


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## Wolfey

Did the t3 ferrule break like the sides blow out around the blade grooves?


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## sethro02

no they did not, ferrule is in good shape, just dull


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## DocB

Hey, I'm in Indy. Can I bring a 6 pack over and watch you shoot stuff?


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## sethro02

just started fixed blade testing, ballistics does matter! first shot with sabertooth missed gel high went through backside, 5 inches sticking out. next shot hit gel, broadhead sticking out otherside only an inch...


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## sethro02

hell yeah you can. what day?


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## DocB

Well, I'm actually working today and heading up to Wawasee for the weekend. But I'll be off Tuesday and Thursday next week. I have a few packages of different slick tricks.


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## sethro02

ok, i start a big landscape job next week but we could work something out on one of those days. probaby thursday. im in shelbyville.


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## sethro02

Steel force Sabertooth SS Results:
Penetration- 9
durability- 5
dependability- 5
sharp before- 5
sharp after- 4
flight- 5
total score= 33 out of 53


entrance hole


----------



## kdog23

sethro02 said:


> may do first round fixed blades today


Yes Please!!!!


----------



## sethro02

sabertooth entrance gel


----------



## Michael Myers

Great Job....I Love my Rage and Slick Trick but am shocked with the SteelForce...I Was told they were Kick Azzz and i was thinking of Trying them....Not sure now....So many to Choose from,How about Swackers?


----------



## MOBIGBUCKS

I'd like to see your spitfire test...I bet it will do extremely well.


----------



## jhauser

awesome .... any Grimreapers?


----------



## sethro02

hang on guys. im hurrying. hang on about that comment about steelforce. wait til the phathead. more mechanicals are to come i promise!


----------



## blind squirrel

Cool stuff here. Keep up the good work. :thumbs_up


----------



## sethro02

Steelforce Phathead Results!
penetration- 21!!!!
durability- 5
dependability- 5
sharp before- 5
sharp after- 4
flight- 5
total score= 46 out of 53!!!!


----------



## sethro02

phathead gel entrance


----------



## 0nepin

I sent sethro02 a franken rage today.its a rage titanium with 2.3" blades should be pretty badarce.


----------



## Michael Myers

sethro02 said:


> Steelforce Phathead Results!
> penetration- 21!!!!
> durability- 5
> dependability- 5
> sharp before- 5
> sharp after- 4
> flight- 5
> total score= 46 out of 53!!!!
> 
> View attachment 1403754


Nice,Might check them ones out,Great Work.Grizz..........Is your Buck cold?Lol


----------



## sethro02

G5 montec ss test results:
Penetration- 9
durability- 5
dependability- 5 
sharp before- 4
sharp after- 3
flight- 5
total score= 31 out of 53


----------



## sethro02

haha yeah i ride him around town to get errands. Im growing him pretty big


----------



## sethro02

yes cant wait for the franken rage!!!


----------



## sethro02

aftermath round 1 fixed heads!
these are some tough heads, they all spun true afterwards!


----------



## sethro02

some pics arent uploading thats why you arent seeing ballistics gel pics...


----------



## ruffme

Any chance you can do a original 3 blade muzzy?


----------



## sethro02

G5 T3's have been sold, thank you!

Rage chisel's are sold pending payment!

Remember everything i buy i am selling after testing, you'll get 2 new heads and hopefully a halfway decent one!


----------



## sethro02

let me check on original muzzy, i have someone in the family that shoots mx-3 but he may have origianals


----------



## BearArcher1980

Awesome thread...thanks for posting this...very well done and informative


----------



## sethro02

hey no problem


I think today's first set of testing went very well. we arent even scratching the surface of being done with this either!
Couple things i learned today:

1.Rage is nasty, and quite possibly a little more durable?
2. Dan Evans fix those sharp blades on the Ulmer's! That may be my go to head! ( just giving you a hard time if you read this Dan)
3. Steelforce Phatheads flat out will crush bone! too bad they are 1"x3/4" 
4. I may need to rethink using the Sabertooth
5. Michael Waddell does your T3 come with 3 blades? J/K guys i am not biased in this test.


----------



## sharpsticksauer

Thanks for the Hard work !! I love it !! I had 2 of my t3's brake at the threads on deer ! so I like the testing keep up the good work


----------



## sethro02

thank you very much sir


----------



## sethro02

i was just a little bit surprised on the outcome with that head


----------



## sethro02

I think this weekend round 2 mechanicals will be:
1. grim reaper 1 3/8" razortip
2. nap spitfire 1 1/2''
3. nap killzone trophy tip 2"

round 2 fixed heads is up in the air...i have a few coming in the mail as donations to try but i will get a list that is for sure here soon.


----------



## kdog23

I am supprised that the montec did not penetrate as much, I own three of these, some muzzys and spitfires. I thought the montec was the best one I had for elk and bear but now I am not thinking that is the case. very interested in seeing how the other two perform.... great work!!!!


----------



## 0nepin

sethro02 said:


> yes cant wait for the franken rage!!!


The titanium rage I sent has probably killed 10 or 12 deer.but with regular blades.


----------



## gutpilz

SETHRO02

YOU ARE THE MAN! 

Thanks for doing this.


----------



## X finder

That was a great test. For the fix blade I would like to see any slick trick, muzzy, and maybe shuttle t.


----------



## 64220511473out!

So Rage is tougher than T3! I would love to see Rage out tough Grim Reapers, Spitfires, and Rocket Steelheads. Imagine if they hold up better than Slick Tricks!! Oh man, I can hear all the AT know it all's now, crying, "that test was fixed!"


----------



## sethro02

that montec did what i thought, i have shot other montecs into stuff and they didn't do as i expected. i think bottom line on cut on contact is they arent bone crushers i guess, except the phathead! but the phathead is .080" thick! 

Onepin, thank you for your generous donations/ loans on broadheads. 

still thinking about fixed blade round 2. have to make sure i can get the ones i want to try too. im thnkng muzzy, shuttle t's, ramcats, someone may be shipping me slick's so im holding off on buying those as of now.

thanks for all support. now im bored, i wanna shoot more!


----------



## sethro02

haha no fixed test here. they are all treated equal, different boards during each test, no knots or hard spots in the boards, etc. there needs to be something at the end...like top 3 mech's and top 3 fixed battle it out, maybe longer distances as well


----------



## I like Meat

You had mentioned Steelhead XL's...when you getting to those ? .....


----------



## sethro02

someone shipped those out yesterday i think so if not here saturday then i should have them monday?


----------



## sethro02

Timber Troll shipped those out yesterday! Thanks!


----------



## 09blackonblack

I'll trade you a swhacker.


----------



## sethro02

swchacker for what?


----------



## 0nepin

64220511473out! said:


> So Rage is tougher than T3! I would love to see Rage out tough Grim Reapers, Spitfires, and Rocket Steelheads. Imagine if they hold up better than Slick Tricks!! Oh man, I can hear all the AT know it all's now, crying, "that test was fixed!"


I shoot Grimreapers and rage titaniums and I think the rage are alot tougher.


----------



## Hoytgman

Ever tried a shuttle 100 grain? It will shoot through a full size phone book, and ten inches into the foam behind it. I haven't had any trouble with the shuttle. I personally done care for expandable broadheads. Had a bad experience.


----------



## sethro02

in an earlier part of the thread we talked about which fixed blades and shuttle t's got brought up, im buying the black ops shuttle t's for this test. I am trying to relate to everyone somehow with this test mechanicals or fixed


----------



## sethro02

so does nobody care that the ulmer edge just blew through this test? twice?!


----------



## 0nepin

Sethro20 you can keep the titanium franken rage I sent you.thanks for taking the time and let's not forget spending the hard earned $$$ to do this test that we can all learn from.


----------



## sethro02

wow much appreciated man! you want me to send the hellrazor back to you?


----------



## sethro02

Reminder guys if you want to purchase the new packs im getting please Pm me your info. still waiting on payment for rage chisels


----------



## 0nepin

sethro02 said:


> so does nobody care that the ulmer edge just blew through this test? twice?!


Yea I just wish it had a bigger cut.when I go elk hunting it would be my mechheads of choice but for deer I will stick franken rage with my very high ke bows.


----------



## Scottwe

I'm voting on the black ops shuttle ts!


EJ


----------



## 0nepin

sethro02 said:


> wow much appreciated man! you want me to send the hellrazor back to you?


Oops I did not send the hellrazor.if you want to I will send it out tomarrow?


----------



## 0nepin

I will send a hellrazor ,grimmreaper wts 2" and tekken tomarrow.And you can keep the all.


----------



## sethro02

holy crap, yes! i will still purchase the 1 3/8 grims cause i know alot of people use them, i can tell you exactly whats gonna happen to that tekan! probably why you wont want it back! thanks for your help


----------



## sharpsticksauer

the ulmer edge looks great but I like 3 blade


----------



## sethro02

yea im curious to see how well the 3 blade over the top expandables do ( spitfires, grims, etc.)


----------



## ddd-shooter

How about testing a bloodrunner?


----------



## sethro02

3 blade is on the list. i have owned those before and i shot the same head 6 times through 3/4" ply until it stopped working on the sixth time. didnt break, the spring just got wood chiips down in it and jammed. so i think the 3 blade will be awesome to try


----------



## 24hrsparkey

how about a swacker? and definitely qad exodus


----------



## sethro02

yep we talked about those already, they will be tested. someone may be sending me a swacker


----------



## sharpsticksauer

I have beat up the Rocket Sidewinders alot and they have proved to be deer killers on 10 or 12 deer for me .


----------



## gutshotem

I haven't read through all 7 pages, but has anyone suggested using anything in place of the vinyl? What about one of those cheap bathroom throw rugs to kind of replicate hair/skin? Just an idea. Oh, if you need a Magnus stinger, I may be able to dig one up. Let me know.


----------



## sethro02

trophy ridge is maybe the most underated broadhead company....i think people are turned off by the rubberbands. steel heads and meatseekers are flat awesome too


----------



## sethro02

someone else asked about a magnus so if you want to send one i will send it back after i test it. i thought about something else inbetween the vinyl and wood but the vinyl im using is the thickest you can get for marine apps..the only reason i have it is because im restoring my boat. i think the vinyl is tougher than hide but i could be wrong. what sucks is i already started so i dont want to go back and do all these broadheads again if i change something. especially since ive already sold some. sorry


----------



## Timinator

Has anybody sent you a Reign? I'd be happy to if you'd like. PM me with your address and I'll get it in the mail.


----------



## screaminbulls1

Thanks for the hard work, very informative and very expensive. I will be interested in buying the kill-zones if no one else has beaten me to them. Hopefully they will perform good.


----------



## sethro02

pm sent timinator!
with you guys being so generous, this could be the biggest broadhead test yet!


----------



## sethro02

buying killzones soon. if you would like to purchase any heads please pm me for a first come first serve basis. thanks


----------



## perryhunter4

Seth - Was the Ulmer that dull? The head really has my interest, but I heard from others they were dull as well. The last thing I want to do is shoot a dull broadhead. Thanks for all your time with this.


----------



## sethro02

they were butterknife dull BUT i was told on another thread that dan evans from trophy taker said there was a small issue concerning the sharpening of the blades and some packages were shipped and it was too late to get them back. i bought 2 packs from 2 different places 3 weeks apart and both packs were dull. dan evans said you can return them to trophy taker and he will replace them no questions asked, or maybe wait a bit longer until the dull heads are off the shelf. i sharpened them with a g5 diamond stone before testing. they are tough heads. i shot them out to 50 yards and they are nailing my field points. plust it blew through this test. only one so far.


----------



## perryhunter4

Good to hear Seth.....thanks again for all your time and fast responsiveness to many posts...this has to be costing a good bit of dough.


----------



## sethro02

hey no problem...yes it is expensive im saving a few bucks by reselling some and getting donated heads but it is worth it to me. alot of people may not be able to do this so im trying to test all of them so everyone can see what their head does in an average set up.


----------



## Maztech89

Pm me your address I think I have a grim reaper and a slick trick or a few which have no place in my quiver as they either hit dirt or are used for practice if you are interested. If you are I'll put a note reminding you to just throw them away to save return shiPping costs for us. I don't need them so I may as well donate them to a neat cause unless you want "factory sharp unfired"?

Thanks!


----------



## sethro02

maztech 89 sent you a pm, thank you!


----------



## chaded

I wish TT would make the Edge in 125 grain with 1.75"-2" cut. That would be sweet. Oh and sharp blades. While I'm ragging on TT, send me my Smackdown Pro rest!! Haha sorry for the hijacked rant.


----------



## sethro02

ok guys grim reapers will not be tested this weekend, i have some folks sending me a couple so the grims will be tested as soon as they get in the mail, they have been asked about the most. so this weekend should still be:
1. nap killzones
2. nap spitfires
3.?


----------



## Maztech89

Edit : posted again before checking pm. I'll have them on their way ASAP. I'll send a few bucks with towards your materials. I doubt I'll change broad heads regardless of testing but I still want to see what you get. I know how "testing" burns up money, finding correct bullets and powder for my target guns is a killer on the savings. Motorcycle tires are the worst yet to test, haha.


----------



## sethro02

what you got is what i need brotha! thanks


----------



## sethro02

Your welcome, i just created the best penetrating biggest cutting broadhead ever! The 2.25" cut Raging Ulmer!!!!!


----------



## sethro02




----------



## born2shoot3

how about throwing epek bh in their?


----------



## sethro02

what is the epek?


----------



## 0nepin

sethro02 said:


> Your welcome, i just created the best penetrating biggest cutting broadhead ever! The 2.25" cut Raging Ulmer!!!!!
> View attachment 1404106


That's insane.good thinking .Maybe timmyz7 will send you one of his chisel extreme and we can have franken broad head show down .rage ulmer vs titanium extreme vs rage chisel extreme.the rage ulmer looks unstoppable !!!!


----------



## 0nepin

I think the teken would pointless to send because they suck but I found a pack wacum and I will send one of those as well.


----------



## BILLDOGGE

Great Thread!!!


----------



## born2shoot3

epek mechanical broadheads


sethro02 said:


> what is the epek?


----------



## Wolfey

0nepin said:


> I think the teken would pointless to send because they suck but I found a pack wacum and I will send one of those as well.


How do tekans suck?


----------



## ShootingABN!

Cool findings....


----------



## Goatboy

Thanks for taking the time to do this!


----------



## mikecs4life

Very interested in the spitfire outcome. I have had great results with them for years. Thanks for all the time and effort you put into the testing.


----------



## sethro02

you dont have to send a tekan if you dont want. i have killed animals with them, but stuff like this they just dont hold up. i will look at the epek's sorry for not knowing much abouth them. The Rage showdown might just have to happen! If i don't get sued.... i will test the spitfires, killzones, and the RRRAAAAGing ulmer this weekend! have to pick wife up from airport at 2:30 so after that i will start getting it ready.


----------



## sethro02

oh by the way.. so far the killzones are spoken for to purchase after the testing, but the spitfires are available. i'll remind everyone after testing!


----------



## Norwegian Woods

Great testing.
The Ulmer Edge did very good. I would prefer it to have a 2" cutting diameter, so I am looking forward to see the Rage Ulmer tested 

I hope someone sends you all different Slick Tricks for testing as well 

I am looking forward to next part and thank you very much for doing this!


----------



## sethro02

your welcome, i have some slick tricks coming i think. i think they are standard. and then someone here locally wants to come and watch and i think he has the magnums....either way those will be tested side by side to the muzzy's. kind of a rivalry test!


----------



## sethro02

on a side note for the raging ulmer. the 2"rage blades makes 2.25" due to the set screw location, so im wondering if the rage 40ke blades would make roughly 2"? also using the 40 ke blades you might be able to use the existing groove in the ferrule to put the oring!


----------



## Chilymac

Awesome thread.


----------



## sethro02

thanks


----------



## patmc81

Very interested in the splitfire maxx and the killzone. 

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2


----------



## sethro02

Here We Go! I couldnt stand it anymore, here is the UNOFFICIAL TEST of the raging ulmer! i will test it again with the spitfires and killzones

penetraion- 28!!! plus it was 10 inches into the broadhead target!
durability- 2 , needs blades replaced, o ring was still on shaft
dependability- 5, opened on impact and through the back
sharp before- 5
sharp after- 2
flight- 5
total score=47!!!!

this was the first time i have ever shot this too!
What will beat the Raging Ulmer!!!!


----------



## sethro02




----------



## sethro02

here is the aftermath!
it started as a 2.25" cut
now it is 1 7/8" cut


----------



## sethro02

if it does this again later, i may have converted to mechanicals this year....


----------



## Norwegian Woods

Looks great
The Rage blades worries me..
They just don't seem to be strong enough in my opinion.


----------



## sethro02

it will be tested with titanium in the later test


----------



## sethro02

they dont break off in the animal though? i'll take bent over broken with a mechanical?!


----------



## sethro02

forget the titanium statement. just read other thread...that sucks!


----------



## Norwegian Woods

sethro02 said:


> they dont break off in the animal though? i'll take bent over broken with a mechanical?!


I totally agree that bent is better than broken.
If the steel is to thin and brittle, it will break.
If the steel is to thin and soft, it will bend.

How about making the blade of high quality steel with the right hardness and a bit thicker? 
It seems that the Ulmer Edge has good blades, but I don't know how it would be with longer blades.


----------



## sethro02

yeah i agree. im gonna buy ulmer replacements and see how sharp they actually are from factory. i like how it can pivot around bone too, its pretty cool.


----------



## dorkbuck33

Hey , thanks for doing all this hard work and the $ involved , you are a true inspiration to AT . Archers helping archers .
I did not see NAP Blood Runner 3 blade 100 gr. on any wish list . I have a 3 pack to use hunting this year and curious if they might get tested ?
They look bulky to me and would think it would slow them down on a pass thru .
The Ulmer Heads got my attention due to your testing , thanks again .


----------



## sethro02

the 3 blades are on the list! sorry must have forgot to mention, but yes just keep checking in.


----------



## sethro02

Ok so upon further inspection of the raging ulmer....the screw for the ulmer is what i used to hold them in. well the ulmer screw is threaded from one end to the other. so i am going to use the rage screw because it has the section on it that is smooth for the blades to "ride" on. i have to drill i bigger hole on one side of the ulmer ferrule so that i can fit the rage screw in it. I will post pics. basically after i shot it, the threads were trash on the set screw


----------



## dorkbuck33

sethro02 said:


> the 3 blades are on the list! sorry must have forgot to mention, but yes just keep checking in.


*Sweet*
I cant wait .


----------



## sethro02

here is the first pic of the modification to hold the blades. i had to drill ONE SIDE ONLY so that the rage set screw would fit. do not get into the opposite side threads! then take a bigger drill bit to hone out the top of the hole so that the rage set screw head fit flush with the ferrule, this would to ensure it doesnt get caught on something and create more drag. as you can see in the pics, inside the ferrule the smooth sleeve of the rage set screw is there, this is so that i wont have to replace those ulmer set screws if i keep using them


----------



## sethro02




----------



## Norwegian Woods

Looks good


----------



## sethro02

thanks. hope it works


----------



## 0nepin

sethro02 said:


> here is the aftermath!
> it started as a 2.25" cut
> now it is 1 7/8" cut
> View attachment 1404220


Man this broadhead has me excited!!!


----------



## sethro02

Haha. I cant wait to test it again with killzones...hopefully later today!


----------



## 0nepin

I sent out a grimmreaper 2" wts ,wacum 100gr ,and a tekan .I though I had hellrazors at home but they are still in my quiver at the farm 97 miles from my home.


----------



## sethro02

ok great! i think the hellrazor would have possibly done the same as the montec? maybe....thanks onepin


----------



## buckhunter1

You Rock Seth! I appreciate the hard work. My interest is in *Rage Extreme, Chisel tip, Killzone, Ramcats, and Exodus*.

Now the Ulmer has creeped into my choices for 2012.


----------



## seiowabow

I didn't read through all the posts. Did you test a Grizztrick yet? If not I will send you one.

Sent from my DROID4 using Tapatalk 2


----------



## sethro02

Yes plz send a grizztrick! U will get it back! Pm me!



Off to buy 2nd round mechanicals!


----------



## sethro02

Thanks for all the kind words! Remember im the working mans broadhead tester!


----------



## corey006

Looks like your doing some GREAT R&D for Trophy Taker.:wink:

*Ulmer Edge will be in my quiver this Fall*!:thumbs_up


----------



## sethro02

Lol I think I missed my calling


----------



## seiowabow

PM sent

Sent from my DROID4 using Tapatalk 2


----------



## sethro02

[pm anawered


----------



## 0nepin

sethro02 said:


> ok great! i think the hellrazor would have possibly done the same as the montec? maybe....thanks onepin


Yea there about the same except you get little better cut with the hellrazor and they are alot easier to resharpen .


----------



## buckhunter1

sethro02 said:


> here is the first pic of the modification to hold the blades. i had to drill ONE SIDE ONLY so that the rage set screw would fit. do not get into the opposite side threads! then take a bigger drill bit to hone out the top of the hole so that the rage set screw head fit flush with the ferrule, this would to ensure it doesnt get caught on something and create more drag. as you can see in the pics, inside the ferrule the smooth sleeve of the rage set screw is there, this is so that i wont have to replace those ulmer set screws if i keep using them
> View attachment 1404254


What makes the Ulmer/Rage penetrate so good even with a long ferule?


----------



## sethro02

Yea true about the hellrazor...the ferrule isnt really longer...just more streamlined and a smoother transition from front to the back...in my opinion. We will learn more tonight! Having family time then testing spits killzone and raging ulmer


----------



## mikecs4life

Lets do this!!!


----------



## sethro02

Im trying..wife just got back from business trio...this is going down tonight! Make your predictions!


----------



## 0nepin

sethro02 said:


> Im trying..wife just got back from business trio...this is going down tonight! Make your predictions!


Raging ulmer wins easy!!


----------



## sethro02

Agreed onepin...i do want to share something...both packs of nap's are butterknife dull!. I will not be resharpening them for test...these should be ready to go for $40 imo. A little disapointed...i think this killzone may not make it through test..just a hunch! Ive been wrong before


----------



## Norwegian Woods

I expect that the blades of the broad heads I buy are scary sharp and it will be no need for me to sharpen them before first time use....


----------



## kentwood1

Thanks for doing this. My Killzones were hair shaving sharp out of the pack. Ready to see what they do!


----------



## 0nepin

sethro02 said:


> View attachment 1404107


 this should be a real good show down,but the rageing ulmer looks tougher.this is the exact head I sent you sethro02.


----------



## BearArcher1980

Wow...I am still enthralled with this test...Thanks again Seth!!!


----------



## gnlz32

nybuck50 said:


> vipertrick


x2!


----------



## sethro02

Here we go!!!!

sorry for the delay

testing is underway
1. killzone trophy tip
2. spitfire standard
3. raging ulmer
4. steelhead xl
5.steelhead standard

all steelheads were generous donations! thanks


----------



## sethro02

Nap Killzone trophy tip test results:
penetration- 6 ( did not touch backside medium!)
durability- 3 ( blades slightly bent, and cannot lock them back in ready position)
dependability- 5
sharp before- 1 (super dull, $40 a pack, why are you dull!)
sharp after- 1 ( they didnt get any more dull 
flight- 5
total score- 21 out of 53


killzone entry


----------



## sethro02

killzone gel entry


----------



## sethro02

Nap Spitfire standard test results:
penetration- 8
durability-4 (blades very slightly bent, went back to closed position after a little cleaning)
dependability- 3 ( blades were less then halfway deployed, fully deployed through gel)
sharp before- 1 (same as killzone)
sharp after- 1 (same as killzone)
flight- 5
total score- 22 out of 53


spitfire entry


----------



## sethro02

spitfire entry


----------



## sethro02

spitfire exit failed to upload,,,the tip was poking out the back


----------



## perryhunter4

What is it with these more popular advertised heads (Ulmer and NAP) being dull? Trophy Taker and NAP have always had good reputations (especially NAP for being sharp)....this isnt good on their end. Of all things, I want a broadhead to be sharp at the very least...that should be a given. Why would you even package and send dull heads out?


----------



## sethro02

Raging Ulmer test results:
penetration- 20
durability- 3 ( blades bent, need replaced)
dependability- 5 ( fully open at entry, fully open through gel)
sharp before- 5
sharp after- 3
flight- 5
total score- 41 out of 53


raging ulmer exit


----------



## sethro02

wish i could answer that, you owe it to yourself and the animal to have sharp heads!


----------



## sethro02

raging ulmer gel pic will not upload


----------



## sethro02

Trophy Ridge Steel head xl test results:
penetration- 11
durability- 4( just dull)
dependability- 1 ( was not hardly open at entrance, WAS open in gel )
sharp before- 4
sharp after- 2
flight- 5
total score- 27 out of 53

steelhead xl entry


----------



## mikecs4life

Sweet. Might have to think about the raging ulmer!!


----------



## sethro02

steelhead xl exit


----------



## sethro02

steelhead xl gel exit


----------



## sethro02

Trophy Ridge Steelhead Standard ( big fan favorite for toughness) test results:
penetration- 13
durability- 4
dependability- 1 ( was not open )
sharp before - 4
sharp after - 2
flight - 5
total score- 29 out of 53


steelhead entry ukey:


----------



## sethro02

steel head exit


----------



## sethro02

aftermath


----------



## sethro02

Their you go guys! round 2 mechanicals in the books. sorry it took so long, it may be a couple of days until round 2 fixed blades, due to the fact alot of people are sending me some and i start a big landscape job this week.

Raging ulmer didnt boast so well this time. im going to chalk the other 2 passthroughs as weak spots in the wood, but still pretty impressive.


----------



## sethro02

Items still for sale:
rage chisel tips ( havent heard from buyer) $30tyd
Nap spitfires $25tyd
Killzones sold pending payment


----------



## sethro02

may be a bit before i reply, watching ufc fight tonight! but i will do my best


----------



## jaysib

surprised about the Spitfire. I killed 4 deer with the same head last year and all 4 pass thru's.


----------



## chaded

I wonder if companies are skimping on actually making these things sharp because of the high performing equipment used today vs. the past. This is just a thought that I have wondered about. Just wondering if maybe they think because a lot are shooting decent performing bows that the way they put broadheads out now will be "good enough." Not sure but again just a though and I know I want crazy super sharp heads regardless. If it is not super sharp I don't use it.


----------



## sethro02

yea thats a good point about sharpness chaded. just in my opinion its a rip off the money you spend on these things and you have to sharpen them when you get them...I have seen devasting results with spitfires. i wonder since over the top expandables take a little longer to open it creates so much drag on that first initial hit....after the testing im thinking this medium im using is a little softer than shoulder, and harder than ribs, so i guess i'll say its a happy medium, no punn intended.


----------



## sethro02

i would also like to see steelhead entrance holes from deer


----------



## sethro02

oh and by the way this testing is conducted under my own free will and i am by no means telling any better what is better then the other! this is all my own testing and opinion! (just covering my butt)


----------



## seiowabow

Sending you a Grizz Trick Monday morning. Hoping to see some other STs and some Muzzys. 

Sent from my DROID4 using Tapatalk 2


----------



## sethro02

thank you, do you want it back? please be sure to include your info so i remember where to send it. thanks alot, and yes their will be a standard, and muzzy mx3 tested with the grizztrick


----------



## sethro02

rage chisels sold pending payment


----------



## sethro02

killzones sold pending payment
rage chisels sold pending payment
g5 montecs for sale $25 tyd will sharpen with g5 stone before mailing!!!!!!!!!!
nap spitfires for sale $25 tyd the tested one just needs sharpened and a little tlc!!!


----------



## seiowabow

sethro02 said:


> thank you, do you want it back? please be sure to include your info so i remember where to send it. thanks alot, and yes their will be a standard, and muzzy mx3 tested with the grizztrick


No I don't want it back. 

Sent from my DROID4 using Tapatalk 2


----------



## dorkbuck33

sethro02 said:


> rage chisels sold pending payment


That would be me , jing has been sent . Thanks again


----------



## DirtySouthFL

Greatest thread ever..... Just to confirm are ramcats in the lineup for the test? If you need one to be sent let me know I will be glad to ship one up!


----------



## sethro02

thank you for donated head. dorkbuck thank you.


----------



## sethro02

dirtysouth yes its in the lineup but i would gladly take one to test then send it back since ive spent close to $400 bucks it would be appreciated but you dont have to


----------



## sethro02

rage chisels are sold, thank you




killzones pending sale
spitfires for sale $25tyd
montecs ss for sale $25 will sharpen


----------



## sethro02

just felt other spitfires and killzones that were in the package and they seem a little sharper. maybe a 2 out of 5, if you were interested in buying i just thought i would share that


----------



## bambikiller

any chance of seeing GERMAN KENETIC XL 125???


----------



## sethro02

due to the availability around here it may be a little while, if you want to send one i will test it, sharpen it then send it back...if not that is fine, but i will do my best


----------



## kdog23

What this seems to be showing so far is that outof the three heads i use spitfire, montecs and muzzy that the only one I can hope for now are the muzzys.... guess I need to sell the others...


----------



## sethro02

haha, like i said before, take it for what its worth, this test is tougher than a rib cage pass through and softer then hitting a shoulder. i have killed deer with montecs, they were clean through ribs. never hit anything hard with them, until now. i think the mx3 will do well. stay tuned. sorry you have to sell heads now!


----------



## BILLDOGGE

Good Stuff!!


----------



## 0nepin

Sethro02' when you test the rage titanium extreme turn the light down a little,when the stainless steel blades deploy and hit the titanium ferrule you see a very bright spark.pretty cool lighting up a deer in low light with them.


----------



## lkmn

Since you are Indiana as well I think we need to see the VPA (Vantage Point Archery)!


----------



## sethro02

ok i'll do that onepoint......waiting for the vpa guy to enter the thread and offer one for testing!! i think it would do awesome!


----------



## sethro02

i may have to beef up my draw weight to shoot the titanium extreme!!!


----------



## Caligater

Sorry, I didn't go through all 11 pages to see if you were going to test an Atom?


----------



## sethro02

i may, you are the first to ask about it actually, i will try.


----------



## aight its jake

where are the reapers? i think they will out perform the steelhead and spitfire as far as entry holes.


----------



## sethro02

also i may have to wait until monday for the list of 2nd round fixed blades. i should be getting quite a few in the mail


----------



## sethro02

reapers are being mailed to me, they will be 3rd round mechanicals this upcoming week


----------



## sethro02

i think im getting whitetail specials and the 1 3/8


----------



## aight its jake

sethro02 said:


> i think im getting whitetail specials and the 1 3/8


okay good, after your done with the 1 3/8, you could take the collar off it and put it on the 2" one which makes it a 1 3/4". that way you could test all sizes of reapers


----------



## sethro02

ok thanks for the info


----------



## phantom1

Great tests, thank you!!!!


----------



## sethro02

your welcome!


----------



## buckhunter1

What do you think about giving the entrance and exit hole size a score. A big entry and exit should be worth something even if the penetration isn't outstanding. Looked like the Killzone and Rage put some nice entry/exit holes in your gel.. 

I am also very interested in the RamCat..


----------



## Norwegian Woods

Another good test.
Looking forward to the rest.
Thanks for doing this.


----------



## sethro02

let me see if i can put something together on the entrance and exit...good idea.


Update: Heads still for sale

1. killzones. for sale $25tyd
2. spitfires for sale $25
3. montec ss for sale $25tyd (will resharpen)
3.rage chisels sold
4.g5 t3 sold


----------



## sethro02

Update


Killzones are the only ones left for sale $25tyd


----------



## 0nepin

buckhunter1 said:


> What do you think about giving the entrance and exit hole size a score. A big entry and exit should be worth something even if the penetration isn't outstanding. Looked like the Killzone and Rage put some nice entry/exit holes in your gel..
> 
> I am also very interested in the RamCat..


Yea that's a very good idea.


----------



## Bones816

I've been reading this thread since it's beginning and think it's been really informative. Thank you! I know there is a lot of interest in all the new mechs but can't wait for the next round of fixed blade tests. I think we need to see some of the replaceable blade heads tested and will send a 100 gr Thunderhead which I think many still consider to be an all time favorite and a 100 gr G5 Striker which I think has a pretty good following. Keep up the great work!


----------



## 0nepin

sethro02 said:


> i think im getting whitetail specials and the 1 3/8


Yep you have 2" wts on the way.


----------



## sethro02

Thanks guys....round 2 fixed is all replaceable blade heads!...may happen tonight! At the end I will add the new entrance exit hole score to already tested heads


----------



## sethro02

Round 3 mechs have some fan favorites for sure!


----------



## aight its jake

sethro02 said:


> Round 3 mechs have some fan favorites for sure!


cant wait, so we are looking at which heads? grim reapers and what else?


----------



## TimmyZ7

Sethro I just tuned into your thread last night! Good stuff! Thank you for sharing your hard work, time and resources with us. Unfortunately, I am recovering from an unanticipated storm that hit my town but as soon as I get myself situated I will make some extreme blades up to fit the chisel tip you already have if the ferrule is still in good shape. Also, if I have anything else I will be more then willing to support your efforts. 

Onepin, you're the man bud, you have sent all my favorites to the gauntlet and the Rage SC is the one that I can't wait to see. I have one Rage CE (chisel extreme 2.3" made up) but within a few days I will try to make another to send out for the show down! I am tuning in via iPhone but hopefully I will have my house restored soon!


----------



## bambikiller

great thread thanks for all your hard yet fun work lol


----------



## sethro02

Round 3 mechs will be all sized grim reapers....rage titaniun extreme....rage chisel extreme maybe....nap bloodrunner 2 blade...i know I know its fixed also but to me bottom line it has moving parts...i am waiting for some of these heads to come in the mail as well as some awesome fixed blades so to hold you all over im doing a small round 2 fixed blade tonight....tru fire t1 (donation thz tom) and newly purchased trophy taker shuttle T black ops! Timmyz7 sorry to here your bad luck and hope this helps get your mind off things.....tonight shuttle vs tru fire...stay tuned


----------



## sethro02

Oh yea timmyz7 , I sold chisels after testing...sorry. But whatever u send to me I can send back. Sorry for inconveniance


----------



## jkm97

So far it still seems the Ulmer Edge is the winner...at least if the blade sharpness is improved.


----------



## ILbonecollector

How did you come to the conclusion they were dull?? I've used NAP heads for years and they are all scary sharp. Never has been an issue or a comparison to the sharpness. I don't get how u come to that conclusion? Must be a bias here with u?


----------



## chaded

ILbonecollector said:


> How did you come to the conclusion they were dull?? I've used NAP heads for years and they are all scary sharp. Never has been an issue or a comparison to the sharpness. I don't get how u come to that conclusion? Must be a bias here with u?


Umm he probably felt them and they were dull??? Just a wild guess. And just because the NAP heads that you have used were scary sharp by your standards means that his have to be? I have had broadheads that many people claimed were "scary sharp" feel very dull right out of the pack.


----------



## jkm97

My NAP heads have always been quite sharp as well, but it is certainly possible that quality control has slipped.


----------



## mattheww1377

I shoot the t3's and found the same thing you did , blades exiting the end of the ferule.. Still shoot them because at long range they fly great... Love the test and might have to try a new head or two... Thanks for all the work and effort put into it...


----------



## jkm97

After seeing this test I think I am going to try some Ulmers, even though UI prefer 125 grain heads. I will just add some 20 grain weight screws to my inserts to make up the difference.

Thanks for doing these tests.


----------



## sethro02

Yea I felt blades...ran my finger across bades farely hard and nothing...not biased..justthe truth...it could have been a bad batch...and earlier in the thread I mentioned that I felt the others and they were better...no blood drawn but they were kinda sharp...also my understanding is there may be 125 grain ulmer coming out


----------



## jkm97

I heard that they were eventually going to make the Ulmer in a 125 model, but I am not expecting it by this season. We will see I guess.


----------



## HAPPY DAD

The ONLY bad part to this thread is having to wade through all the responses to find the results.

Great job cant wait to see the Grims and the rage ti extreme


----------



## 0nepin

Sethro02 I just got through modifing some extreme blades for the titanium ferrule I sent you.they will increase the cut from 2.3" with the turkey to 2.47". I will send them out In the morning.will post pic when I get home.


----------



## sethro02

Ok thanks onepin....sorry happydad didnt know it would have so much response..trying my best to this a good thread


----------



## HAPPY DAD

sethro02 said:


> Ok thanks onepin....sorry happydad didnt know it would have so much response..trying my best to this a good thread



Dont take it the wrong way, it was meant more in a complimentary way, awesome thread.


----------



## pinski79

Doing a fine job.


----------



## sethro02

Haha no problem....just got done bowfishing with son then eating then testing!


----------



## aight its jake

sethro02 said:


> Haha no problem....just got done bowfishing with son then eating then testing!


sounds like you had a good day.


----------



## tanneryrat

Thanks for all the testing and hard work you're putting into this. Very informative. I've been thinking about getting the Ulmer edges to try this fall. I think I've got a couple meat seekers that I'd be willing to donate. I'll send you a pm too.


----------



## irishiup

Sethro -- This is great. Seems like a ton of work, so thank you! Can you post a new thread when the testing is all over that summarizes the results? This thread is so popular that it's tough to know the results without dedicating 2 hours to reading all of the pages of comments.


----------



## sethro02

Hey thx guys'..yea at the end ill summarize on new thread thanks for liking the thread


----------



## chuckatuk

Awesome thanks for your time and great review.


----------



## sethro02

Here we go!!
I know its only 2 fixed heads but i have a ton of heads coming in the mail this week. But this is worth it because there is a new fixed head leader!!!

1. Tru fire T1
2. Trophy Taker Suttle T Black Ops


----------



## sethro02

Tru Fire T1 test results:
penetration- 14
durability- 5
dependability- 5
sharp before- 4
sharp after- 3
flight-5
total score- 36 out of 53


----------



## sethro02

T1 entry


----------



## switchbackxt331

http://www.stricklandsarchery.com/WebStore/Products.aspx?cat=8&cookieCheck=true I'd be interested in seeing how these hold up... great thread!


----------



## sethro02

AND OUR NEW FIXED HEAD LEADER!!!!!1

Trophy Taker Shuttle T Black Ops test results:
penetration- 26!!!!!!!!, It can be done!!!!!!!!!!!
durability- 5
dependability- 5
sharp before- 4
sharp after- 3
flight- 5, ( i would give it 100 if i could....you cannot hear this thing!!!!!)
total score- 48 out 53!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


----------



## sethro02

shuttle t


----------



## sethro02

Guys this was awesome eventhough it was 2 heads. I have a ton of heads coming by mail so look for round 3 of mechanicals and fixed by monday or tuesday!!!!!!


----------



## Timber Troll

Great tests!!! I'm a T1 fan but those Black Ops are downright impressive!


----------



## sethro02

yea i was surprised to say the least!!!! they look sweet too i think.


----------



## sethro02

thanks for your t1's they are third place Tom!


----------



## whitetail97

Great test, thanks for taking the time to do this!


----------



## X finder

I love the shuttle Ts thanks for trying them. Can't wait to see how a muzzy and a slick trick stack up. This has got to be one of the best threads I have ever seen on At. Thank for all the work and $ you have put into this test. Very informative your the Man.


----------



## alwayslookin

sethro02 said:


> Steelforce Phathead Results!
> penetration- 21!!!!
> durability- 5
> dependability- 5
> sharp before- 5
> sharp after- 4
> flight- 5
> total score= 46 out of 53!!!!
> 
> View attachment 1403754


Pretty much mirrors other results.....PM me your address and I will send you out some stuff for taking the time.


----------



## sethro02

yeah the phathead and shuttle t may need a showdown!!! i got your pm alwayslookin


----------



## sethro02

switchbackxt331 those helix heads look pretty nasty! i may purchase them a little later. i'll have to get through all the heads being donated to me first.


----------



## sethro02

Update:
1. killzones still for sale $25tyd
2. Trophy Taker Shuttle T black ops for sale $25tyd, tested head is still pretty sharp, with no damage at all


----------



## mdnabors

I'd love to see QAD Exodus, Grizz Trick 2, and Ramcats. Sending you an Exodus Full and Snuffer SS tomorrow. Let 'em eat!


----------



## sethro02

sweet. i have grizztricks coming i think and i still need to get some ramcats. i need to look back through my inbox to see exactly what everyone is sending. this thread is getting quite a bit of attention.


----------



## sethro02

yep grizztrick coming! i want slick tricks and muzzy's all in one test!


----------



## mdnabors

The last test I saw the Tricks hung in there with Silver Flames. I'm interested to see if the shorter ferrule heads (ie. shuttle T, Exodus, Grizz Trick, etc..) will out penetrate the longer ferrule heads. Good stuff Seth!


----------



## BearArcher1980

I am still enthralled with this thread...awesome job so far Seth...


----------



## kdog23

Way awesome! Keep it up!


----------



## Timber Troll

Looking forward to this coming week and the Reapers and other mechs. I was disappointed with the entry deployment of the Steelhead and Steelhead XL. I'll watching with interest.


----------



## sethro02

you guys are just as excited as me. im glad to see the support, donations, and all the positive feedback. i want everyone to be comfortable shooting the head they do!


----------



## sethro02

This week is going to be crazy on here! just hope i can find time between a big job i start, a 6 year old home from summer, etc. etc.:beer:


----------



## nolimitarchery

Grave Diggers will be on there way tomorrow. I like this test because it shows the damage that a broadhead does. Broadheads are about your bad shots not your good ones.


----------



## kyhunter5569

I wish you could try a huner broadhead out for us someone send this guy one!!!! Lmao
Thanks for your time and money spent on this test!


----------



## sethro02

thanks to no limit archery! the first owner/creator of his own company putting up his product against others! sais alot about someone! and yes i too love damage!

i need to check my inbox, im pretty sure someone is sending me a huner broadhead.


----------



## eltaco

Steve send you one of his new SOLID Broadheads yet?

I'm curious to see how they stack up against the Shuttles.


----------



## sethro02

Who is Steve? Sorry for the ignorance I have been talking to alot of people on here and may not remember.


----------



## sethro02

I only know people as screen names!!! haha


----------



## lovetohunt93

Really cool thread, just read the whole thing. Keep up the good work!


----------



## sethro02

lovetohunt93, thanks. sorry its so long! hope its a good thing for ya!


----------



## eltaco

sethro02 said:


> Who is Steve? Sorry for the ignorance I have been talking to alot of people on here and may not remember.


He's the designer of SOLID Broadheads. I should have 3 in hand this week. I'd be curious to see how they hold up in your testing. 

http://solid-broadheads.com/


I also have a 100gr German Kinetic that I could send your way for testing, but it's pretty banged up... would need a good sharpening.


----------



## sethro02

pm sent eltaco


----------



## bon3coll3ctor92

great thread sethro02 would like to see how the thunderheads hold up also


----------



## sethro02

Thunderhead being sent to


----------



## hedp

sethro02 said:


> G5 montec ss test results:
> Penetration- 9
> durability- 5
> dependability- 5
> sharp before- 4
> sharp after- 3
> flight- 5
> total score= 31 out of 53
> 
> View attachment 1403763






Surprised the Montecs didn't do better.



Can you try Ramcats?
.


----------



## sethro02

Me too...ramcats are on the list...that may be the most anticipated head


----------



## Norwegian Woods

Another good test. Looking forward to the next


----------



## TauntoHawk

Last year I wasn't overly impressed with the Montec, they did fine I just wasn't satisfied. It came down the the Shuttle T and the QAD Exodus for my fixed blade head and I went with QAD. I absolutely loved them.

Very interested to see their performance against each other, I fully expect them to be both at the very top of the fixed blade list.

The Ulmars with some sharper blades have my eye for a mechanical option. 

Great testing, I check the thread everyday! ok, Several times a day


----------



## sethro02

Haha yhanks for checking thread...the exodus will happen! Should start to see heads showing up today!


----------



## kyhunter5569

I'm also really curious about the "oldie" 100 grain thunderhead I don't shoot them anymore but will go on a limb here and say the thunderhead surprises a bunch of people


----------



## sethro02

Yep that one is being tested..should testing the next couple of days! Ill have to,see what comes in the mail today! Its like a week long xmas!


----------



## sixgunluv

Subscribed...would like to see the results of the Muzzy mx 3 and the new Slick Trick Viper. Very interesting to hear the results of the Shuttle T, may have to check them out.


----------



## seiowabow

Mx3 vs slick trick vs thunderhead is what I want to see 

Sent from my DROID4 using Tapatalk 2


----------



## Tony85

How about a G5 Striker? I can send you one.


----------



## sethro02

I think all that were just mentioned are coming to me in the maile except vipertrick. You see them tested plz keep chkng thread for updates..whatever I grt today in mail will be tested!


Update

Killzones still for sale
Trophy taker shuttle t black ops still for sale


----------



## eltaco

Sent you a PM.

Do you want to test a Muzzy 3-blade?


----------



## sethro02

Pm answered


----------



## Hawgfan

Seth, anyone mentioned the NAP Nitron yet? I know they are discontinued but Ive got a bunch of these little dudes and really curious how they would do. Thanks. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## sethro02

no they have not mentioned those. I will test one if you send it. i can send it back to you. thanks


----------



## sethro02

MAIL CAME!

Testing for tonight! 
1. rage titanium extreme!!
2. the reign broad head!!

I know its only two. but to keep this quick and easy as soon as i receive these heads they will be tested whether its mechanical and fixed in same test!!!!
Both of these heads were donations so thank you so much!


----------



## chaded

How much gel have you been making? lol


----------



## kyhunter5569

Is it sad I'm really excited for these test? Haha


----------



## sethro02

Haha..making gel sucks but it is what it is....and I am always excited now too..my wife thinks im a dork


----------



## sethro02

Here we go!!!
Round 3 Mechanicals!
Sorry it is only 2 again. These were donated so thank you for that. More will be coming in everyday!!
1. Rage Titanium Extreme!!!!
2. The Reign Broadhead!!
I call the Reign a mechanical because it has moving parts eventhough it is always "cutting"


----------



## bowhunter727

This is a great thread i would loce to do some of my own testing but the gel and broad heads are to much $! Way to go keep up the good work


----------



## jumpalot

sethro02 said:


> steel head exit
> View attachment 1404872


I'm curious. It looks like the steelhead exited through a strap of some sort. Did that effect the penetration at all?


----------



## sethro02

steel exit went through a piece of vinyl that i was using as a shim so the board didnt move. if it affected it i couldnt see it making much more than 1/4" difference


----------



## sethro02

The Reign Test Results:
penetration- 16
durability- 0 fail ( blade broake after first medium and was in gel)
dependability- 4
sharp before- 5 
sharp after- 3
flight- 5
total score- 33 out of 53


----------



## sethro02

reign, see the blade?


----------



## sethro02

Rage Titanium Extreme test results:
penetration- 8
durability- 3 ( blades bent)
dependability- 5
sharp before- 5
sharp after- 3
flight- 5
total score- 29 out of 53
sorry some pics arent uploading of this one


__
Sensitive content, not recommended for those under 18
Show Content


----------



## sethro02

rage titanium extreme....that will leave a mark


----------



## sethro02

you can see the rage stuck in opposite side medium


----------



## sethro02

round 3 mechanicals aftermath


----------



## sethro02

The sparks off of the titanium rage at impact was the coolest thing ever! My son about crapped his pants!


----------



## DFINN

Seth this is good stuff..Hey how often do you change the plywood..In other words each B>H> hits undamaged plywood? Right


----------



## Norwegian Woods

Thanks for another test.
The Reign failed totally in my opinion.

I didn't like the cutting tip of the Rage before and I still don't like it.
The chisel tip looks good, but it looks like the Ulmer ferrule is better.
It seems that the Rage blades are not to brittle, but they bend and deform to much in my opinion.
Totally naturally because of how long and thin they are, and how they are designed.

The Ulmer Edge is still the best of the mechs I have seen so far.
I just wish they could make a heavier all steel 2" version


----------



## sethro02

Most tests are 2 shots through wood...i shoot one high...flip it upside down then shoot low...if it is damaged to,the point it will affect other testing..then I put a new piece in..but 2 shots max..i also move gel...


----------



## sethro02

I think the rage coc tip,may be a downfall...there chisel tip in my opinion may need to,be more streamlined


----------



## sethro02

Didnt know much about the reign,before today.


----------



## outdoorsman3

I might send a magnus snuffer SS. they are very nice heads!


----------



## sethro02

Someone is sending a snuffer but thank you though...ill let you know if that changes


----------



## 0nepin

sethro02 said:


> The sparks off of the titanium rage at impact was the coolest thing ever! My son about crapped his pants!


Haha I almost crapped my pants the first time I killed deer with one.I did not know what had happened , I was thinking what heck dam deer got body armor.even with blades bent backwards it still has a decent cut.the thicker and bigger cut blades shipped your way today sethro02.What did the entry hole look like with the titanium?


----------



## sethro02

Trying to uoload that pic jason..easily 2.5" at vinyl impact....that cut wins biggest entry hole for sure..who needs a passthrough! Jk


----------



## sethro02

The bent blade cut is about 1.75"


----------



## Bones816

Thunderhead and Striker are on the way!


----------



## chirohunter73

onepin, which rage has the thicker blades in it? Great Test, I keep refreshing the page every 30 minutes just to see whats changed.


----------



## sethro02

You guys are awesome! Should be more tests tomorrow!


----------



## NEhunter22

You should make a summary after all is done with all the results in one place so it is easy to compare.


----------



## sethro02

Im going to do that and in a seperate thread


----------



## 0nepin

chirohunter73 said:


> onepin, which rage has the thicker blades in it? Great Test, I keep refreshing the page every 30 minutes just to see whats changed.


The extreme have the thicker blades and I just got through modifying them to fit the titanium ferrule .I sent them out this morning for sethro02 to test. The blades the he tested were the turkeys and they are the same thicknest as the original.after going through plywood and all that happened to them was bent backwards and still getting a 1 3/4" cut I'm more than happy with the turkey blades.the extreme in the titanium ferrule will be an even bigger cut ,this should be interesting!!!.befor anybody say anything about not getting a passthrouh I will be shooting the out of two bows that get over 110lb ke.


----------



## Jack The Ripper

I shot last years buck the a t3 and all three blades broke off inside the deer. Not a bit surprised to see how they performed in your tests.


----------



## sethro02

Yea goodpoint onepin...im shooting 70lbs ke....if I was shooting my bow maxed out the penetration numbers would be higher...but im going for average to suit everyone...270fps with 70lbs ke might be actually be a litle on the high side of average......i would love to see some sort of shorter ferrule rage...lets not forget that the.blades didnt break...dont have to worry about metal in your ground meat!


----------



## Michael Myers

These Tests are Great,I am looking at a New Broadhead to Shoot from my Omen Pro when i get it in a Few weeks,I Shoot Rage and Slick Tricks right now and want to try a Different Head....Not sure which one yet,Steelforce,Maybe?Great Work Seth,Grizz


----------



## TauntoHawk

Onepin at that KE you could just shoot Axe heads haha 

You keeping all the stats from each head written down? More than willing to help compile into a spreadsheet with graphs when your done

You testing out of a whole pack of Exodus heads or is someone sending you a single?


----------



## sethro02

That sucks jack the ripper...those blades on the t3 get slammed open so hard that the slider clip has no way to support...i would like to see a shoulder shot pic of a t3...just curious


----------



## Michael Myers

GrizzlyMan1980 said:


> These Tests are Great,I am looking at a New Broadhead to Shoot from my Omen Pro when i get it in a Few weeks,I Shoot Rage and Slick Tricks right now and want to try a Different Head....Not sure which one yet,Steelforce,Maybe?Great Work Seth,Grizz


Or maybe this Head...

Trophy Taker Shuttle T Black Ops


----------



## sethro02

Exodus is being shipped...1 I think...sorry...yes I have everything noted..at end I will start new thread with all results...grizzz if u want a phathead or sabertooth ss let me know


----------



## sethro02

That reminds me... Black ops are sold...
Killzones are now 20tyd firm...the tested head needs new screw to hold blades in...all others are new


----------



## Michael Myers

sethro02 said:


> That reminds me... Black ops are sold...
> Killzones are now 20tyd firm...the tested head needs new screw to hold blades in...all others are new


Which head are you impressed with the Most so far?I Think the Trophy Taker Shuttle T Black Ops did amazing..I Had heard good things about them before...It is a Tough Choice....I Will let you know,Bow should be here by end of July at Latest...Grizz


----------



## sethro02

Of course id have to say trophy takerBUT the phathead rocked and I was surprised about t1 trufire


----------



## sethro02

Phathead is only coc to that kinda damage!


----------



## Michael Myers

sethro02 said:


> Phathead is only coc to that kinda damage!


So far these are the Heads that have me interested....Steelforce Phatheads,Tru fire T1'S and Trophy Taker Shuttle T Black Ops,All seem to be a Great Head.Grizz


----------



## sethro02

Either would be good...we have so many more heads to go!


----------



## 0nepin

You know sethro your 55lb Bow lay down as much ke as my 70lb drenalin or guardian .you got love those xforce bows.


----------



## sethro02

Yea my main selling point was I wanted something low poundage I could draw while turkey hunting with speed...i love it


----------



## nolimitarchery

Seth your Grave Diggers went out today.


----------



## 2robinhood

How about consolidating the results so far in one post.
It will make it easier to compare.
Thanks for doing these test.


----------



## Fortyneck

Lets see the nextra get shot. :nod:


----------



## McCaslin

Sent you pm. I'll take the shuttle t's if you still have them. Then I'm going to put my Montecs up for sale. I already had the ulmer edge's which I too felt like were not sharp. Called Trophy Taker and they are sending me a new batch so will see if they are any sharper. Even if they aren't it sounds like a dull ulmer's edge may still out penetrate just about every other head at least in this test. I am trying to decide which heads to put in my quiver for elk hunting in a few weeks and after reading this thread I'm leaning toward taking 2 ulmer edge's and 2 shuttle t's. Will decide which one to shoot based on practice the next few weeks and conditions during hunt. Thanks for the great info.


----------



## sharpsticksauer

Any chance the scwacker will get tested


----------



## sethro02

Yes at end of test I will start a new thread with all the scores...i think either one of the trophy takers would be awesome elk heads.


----------



## sethro02

Yes u will see swhaker


----------



## 0nepin

You find a way to rank the CARNAGE factor!!!!!


----------



## jaysib

If I had a dollar for every time I saw 100+ KE I'd be rich!


----------



## Buckbadger

Nice thread, not too surprising as fixed heads are scoring better than expandables, with the exception of the Ulmer. Just more proof why I don't like expandables, Thanks for testing, as my head was already tested, Shuttle T, been using them for years, and looks like that will continue.


----------



## 0nepin

jaysib said:


> If I had a dollar for every time I saw 100+ KE I'd be rich!


You have never saw it with your bow.


----------



## Infamousfrog

Can't wait to see the Ramcats and the Grave diggers perform. I am disappointed in the NAP Killzones though.... Wished they performed better.


----------



## ember

Great thread. Any chance for Jak Hammer test 1 1/2"?


----------



## E.J.

nolimitarchery said:


> Seth your Grave Diggers went out today.


Sweet. I was considering sending one of my new grave diggers as I think they will perform well, but glad to see your sending some.


----------



## Norwegian Woods

Looking forward to next round


----------



## sethro02

thanks alot everybody. I will have to have a carnage score at the end! I dont have a jack hammer yet but i'll look today after work! tonight should have some good heads guys!


----------



## sethro02

Fyi the titanium rage extreme had the turkey blades on it which are thinner...im getting the thicker blades in the mail today or tomorrow...im anticipating having 3 or 4 heads tonight...quite possibly mx3 as well...stayed up late to cut wood and make gel!


----------



## Bowhuntr64

I really love reading your tests! Thanks so much for all your work in putting this together. One question, though, do you have any thoughts on how you could incorporate "cutting diameter" or "total cutting surface" into your scoring matrix? I remember Chris, from BroadheadTests.com used to give a score for this as well. Otherwise, you are only testing durability and penetration, which is not complete. I would expect the smaller cut heads to do penetrate the deepest, in general, but that does not mean they are cutting more tissue. 

Just a thought.

Thanks again!


----------



## sethro02

Yes thats been asked and I thought it would be easier to add that at the end with final results so that I dont jump back and forth? So when I start the nee thread after all this it will have that added..i agree with what u said...i just got in a hurry at the beginning and overlooked it


----------



## BILLDOGGE

Can not wait to see what comes next!! Great job man


----------



## sethro02

Another thing is that my first reasoning behind this testing was flat out are these broadheads doing what they say are? If I know its a 2" cut...and I shoot it...it opens completely and penetrates lets say 12"...then u know I have a 2" cut for 12" long...which is a good wound channel...so thats kinda why I lookef over total cutting sutface...so I will for sure add that in


----------



## sethro02

Thx billdoggr


----------



## Mulder

sethro02 said:


> Haha..making gel sucks but it is what it is....and I am always excited now too..my wife thinks im a dork


How do you go about making it?


----------



## sethro02

2 packs of gelatin per 3/4 cup water...i have to use 16 packs each time...mix it in bowl put in fridge for 2 hrs...then sit that container in sink with hot wated...wait til gel turns liquidity...then pour it into your mold and put back in fridge for 12 hours...its pretty tough. My son shoots a 300 grain arrow at 20 lbs with a coc head and it goes in about 2 to 3"


----------



## Gypsy Rover

Would love to see the Razor Tricks get tested.....my daughter at age 10 killed a 9pt last year with them from a 36lb bow-

didnt exit thought


----------



## sethro02

Trying to round up all slicks!


----------



## Acts 10:13

STOKED to see SLICKS!!!


----------



## string music

Great thread and test. Bring on the Ramcats . Thanks for the informitve test Seth


----------



## tack09

Tuned in for the Slicks and the Cats also. Thanks again Sethro, great thread.


----------



## mdnabors

tack09 said:


> Tuned in for the Slicks and the Cats also. Thanks again Sethro, great thread.


...And EXODUS. That's the 3 I wanna see. Good stuff Seth. Exodus and Snuffer SS on way


----------



## Mulder

sethro02 said:


> 2 packs of gelatin per 3/4 cup water...i have to use 16 packs each time...mix it in bowl put in fridge for 2 hrs...then sit that container in sink with hot wated...wait til gel turns liquidity...then pour it into your mold and put back in fridge for 12 hours...its pretty tough. My son shoots a 300 grain arrow at 20 lbs with a coc head and it goes in about 2 to 3"


Thanks!!


----------



## sethro02

Thanks guys..killzones pending sale to markman


----------



## Kingfish750

I have a few slick trick magnums. If you need one, send me PM.


----------



## sethro02

Pm sent


----------



## sethro02

What do the stars mean by thread title? Am I being monitered!?


----------



## chaded

Means people like this thread. :thumbs_up


----------



## B.L.C.

Awesome thread... thanks for all that you are doing


----------



## eltaco

Just sent you a Muzzy Original 3-Blade and German Kinetic Silverflame 

I still want to see a SOLID Broadhead!!!

Also, out of curiosity, how far does a regular field point penetrate?


----------



## sethro02

Wow thanks everyone...thanks eltaco...chkng mail soon...should be te!sting after kids go to sleep


----------



## Michael Myers

sethro02 said:


> What do the stars mean by thread title? Am I being monitered!?


Probably...And by Aliens no less...Lol


----------



## Michael Myers

B.L.C. said:


> Awesome thread... thanks for all that you are doing


x2!!!!!


----------



## sethro02

Haha.

Update..
Mx3 will be tested tonight..100grain


----------



## Jboss2

I'm disappointed in T3's I knew that I Channel for the blades would be a weak point... Oh well, guess I better look elsewhere.


----------



## tack09

I gave up on the T3's last year because I could not get them to stay closed in flight out of a 300fps setup. I checked with G5 several times using blue and red clips per their setup instructions with no luck. I would bet if some of the users of T3's would put a paper tuning jig in front of their broadhead target, they would be surprised at the results.


Jboss2 said:


> I'm disappointed in T3's I knew that I Channel for the blades would be a weak point... Oh well, guess I better look elsewhere.


----------



## sethro02

Ok guys no mail today?! But!!!!!!!!! Ill be testing the mx3 to,hold you over...i have a feeling ill be getting a ton of broadheads real soo. Over 15 different heads are being donated...so tonight after kids bedtime the mx3....then tomorrow night!......for sure im buying ramcats! Bloodrunner 2 blades! Those two for sure tomorrow then they will be for sale!


----------



## TauntoHawk

sethro02 said:


> What do the stars mean by thread title? Am I being monitered!?


I think the final data thread needs to be stickied, broadheads are a HUGE part of the AT discussion


----------



## 0nepin

I mailed out the grimmreaper wts , tekan,and wacums the day after I mailed the titanium SC .I thought they would be there today.They will problely show up tomarrow . They are coming from Florida .


----------



## sethro02

Oh ok...tomorrow may be stacked then!

Tauntohawk what do u mean by stickied


----------



## Grizz1219

I'm on.... great post....


----------



## jaysib

Onepin...can't you just shoot them to him?


----------



## [email protected]

sethro02 said:


> 3. Steelforce Phatheads flat out will crush bone! too bad they are 1"x3/4"
> 4. I may need to rethink using the Sabertooth
> .



Curious why you say "too bad" on the Phathead size? I've killed a bunch of stuff with them. You said yourself:


sethro02 said:


> Phathead is only coc to that kinda damage!


I also think a broadhead like the Sabertooth is at a disadvantage in this kind of test due to the serrations. I think they magnify the non-realistic nature of your mediums like wood and vinyl. 

I'll send you a Phathead SOB if you want and if alwayslookin didn't offer to already. You'll love it and it will score high.


----------



## HAPPY DAD

[email protected] said:


> Curious why you say "too bad" on the Phathead size? I've killed a bunch of stuff with them. You said yourself:
> 
> 
> I also think a broadhead like the Sabertooth is at a disadvantage in this kind of test due to the serrations. I think they magnify the non-realistic nature of your mediums like wood and vinyl.
> 
> I'll send you a Phathead SOB if you want and if alwayslookin didn't offer to already. You'll love it and it will score high.




this is the one I want to see, but I looked on the website a few months back and they were not on there, have they stopped making them?


----------



## sethro02

I do like phatheads...ive killed with them too...i just wish for a little bigger cut...sob is awesome...i have never seen one in person. When I spoje of damage I guess I was referring to bone...yes I agree with you on sabertooth but I feel the length may hurt more than serrations...imo...i love the sabertooth


----------



## [email protected]

HAPPY DAD said:


> this is the one I want to see, but I looked on the website a few months back and they were not on there, have they stopped making them?


No definitely making them and today's version is better than ever. They are behind on website updates is all. If u can't find them u can call them to purchase or pm me and I might be able to set u up.


----------



## littlejimmy

G5 striker


----------



## sethro02

Muzzy Mx-3 test results!
penetration- 19!
durability- 4
dependability- 5
sharp before- 5
sharp after- 3
flight- 5
total score-41!


----------



## sethro02




----------



## sethro02

mx3 gel


----------



## sethro02

aftermath


----------



## sethro02

Guys some pics arent uploading, like the penetration pic where you can see how far it went in. but if you look at the entrance hole pic you can see that my axis nfused is buried up to the "graphics"

durability was a 4 just because blades were nicked. they were not bent on this test. honestly they could be sharpened out.


----------



## Fortyneck

sethro02 said:


> View attachment 1407893


That arrow looks like it's flying sideways, and just nicked the gel.


----------



## sethro02

sorry it took so long. my son decided to sign up for football tonight. kinda hard to say no to that! For tomorrow I am going to purchase Ramcats! Nap Bloodrunner 2 blades! and more. Also I should be seeing a ton of heads showing up. You have to keep watching this thread. It is gonna start getting crazy!


----------



## BILLDOGGE

Bring on the craziness!!!!


----------



## Jboss2

Sethro02, rewinding back to earlier. When the T3 lost its blades, there was no damage to the ferrule or the blades correct? Just trying to figure out how it would have lost the blades without damage to both. I'd have to imagine either the nubs on the blades sheered off, or the I Channel cracked? Was it loose on the shaft when you completed the test? Sorry for all the questions I just had alot of faith in that head, and its making me want to switch for that day when the awful leg bone hit happens.


----------



## sethro02

Ok since the mx3 was in question if it flew straight or not, i re shot a new head. It was 3 inches less in penetration. soooo I shot a third new head for the tie breaker ( which all flew straight) and it was 17.5'' ish. So im going to average the penetration score at 17.5.
Updated results Mx 3 re-test
penetration- 17.5
durability- 4
dependability- 5
sharp before- 5
sharp after- 3
flight- 5
total score- 39.5 out of 53

Sorry for misconseption. when i went up to look at it with my son he was messing with arrow and since those boards slide in and out it may have moved. also further inspection of the gel. which i though was clean and just had enough blade to slice the long sliver. well i measured from center of hole outwards and found it needed to be shot again because it may have passed through easier. Sorry guys, just in a hurry to post stuff. I will take my time and make sure everything is absolutely perfect for everyone!


----------



## sethro02

The t 3 ferrule " looked" fine. i found 2 out of 3 blades. I found half the blade that was missing. the washer and spider clip were pretty mangled. i put it on with the g5 tool they send with heads. i checked over the blades and didnt see the "nubs" missing. i do know when i tested a tekan earlier this year those "nubs" were sheared off. I may have missed that. i can pm the guy who bought them. i could have overlooked the fact that at the bottom of the channel where the blades slide up in down may have been "pulled " apart allowing the blades to come off.


----------



## sethro02

mx3 re test pic....all 3 heads i shot had nicked blades, none of them "looked" bent to me.


----------



## Fortyneck

Nice work, :thumbs_up


----------



## sethro02

Thank you


----------



## TauntoHawk

Stickies are the top permanent threads above the standard daily ones.


----------



## qmb9015

hey can you put a list of heads that you are expecting to get in the mail so that if anyone else wants to send you some they can see what you dont have


----------



## Griz34

Thanks a lot for this, I'm in the market for new heads this year. At the end you should compile all the test results into one post...if that's not to much to ask.:tongue:


----------



## ole' bowhunter

Anxious to see all the ST's tested. This is an awesome thread.


----------



## Acts 10:13

I have a feeling that at the rate this thread is goin' Sethro...you're gonna go broke buying lumber and what not to keep testing every random broadhead we can throw at you. GREAT thread. Keep it up! And again...MUST SEE SLICKS!


----------



## BootyK

Can't wait to see Phathead SOB, Gravedigger and any Grim Reaper you can fling at the target. 
Im all about the mechanicals!


----------



## BearArcher1980

Still loving this thread...check it every day...awesome job!!!


----------



## 2dwoods7

Can't wait to see how the slick trick magnums perform. I just bought some for this year. Great thread!!!


----------



## sethro02

Thanks guys, yes its expensive but if i can help you guys choose what you want use and build your confidance then that is ok with me. Let my go through my inbox and check, this will take a while to compile.


Also yes i am starting a new thread at the end with ALL results posted!


----------



## 2robinhood

Has Slick Tricks been tried ?


----------



## sethro02

No but they will be..soon! Keep chkng in


----------



## sethro02

To the T3 questioing...i double chkd with guy who bought them...the 2 blades looked good the ferrule looked good...washer and clip...mangled...bh was on tight.


----------



## HOYT5MAN

Great thread. Like everybody else, I am checking this thread several times throughout the day. I know it was already asked but I too am curious to see what just a fieldpoint would do, as far as penetration. Thanks again.


----------



## sethro02

Oh I never seen the fp question...ill throw that in the mix...buying heads at lunch...thanks for chkngthread!


----------



## RustyUlmer

Seth, great unbiased testing. Would you like to test the new solid stainless steel Ulmer Edge Deep six designed for the Easton Injection shafts? It is a 125 gr head and we are in the prototype phase of development but I think your readers would like the results you get. Some may say that it is unfair because you will have to use the smaller diameter Injection shaft to do the test but that is part of the system-they were both designed for superior penetration. I can send a prototype head along with an Injection shaft if you are interested. Let me know what weight you want the total shaft/broadhead combination to be. 
Thanks,
Rusty


----------



## HOYT5MAN

RustyUlmer said:


> Seth, great unbiased testing. Would you like to test the new solid stainless steel Ulmer Edge Deep six designed for the Easton Injection shafts? It is a 125 gr head and we are in the prototype phase of development but I think your readers would like the results you get. Some may say that it is unfair because you will have to use the smaller diameter Injection shaft to do the test but that is part of the system-they were both designed for superior penetration. I can send a prototype head along with an Injection shaft if you are interested. Let me know what weight you want the total shaft/broadhead combination to be.
> Thanks,
> Rusty


Hey Rusty,

sethro02 is pretty busy. Go ahead and send me a half dozen and I'll test them! :wink:


----------



## sethro02

Pm sent rusty! Not too busy for you!
and thx for comolimants


----------



## Porkrind

Gotta hand it to you sethro, I don't comment much but I feel the need to say thanks in appreciation for all the people out here that dig this kinda stuff. Awesome thread and I have a RedHead Gator that I would love to donate if you could tell me what I need to do to get it to you.


----------



## sethro02

Porkrind thank you..i have one of those being sent but I will let you know if something happens..much appreciated


----------



## -bowfreak-

Nice test you have going here.

I want to mention one thing about Phatheads.....Don't let their smaller size keep you away. There is something about that head that delivers ridiculous blood trails. I am the first to say that blood trail is typically a function of shot placement but I have been surprised at the amount of blood loss this head delivers. I am not sure if it is because of sharpness or what but it is a wicked head. Nothing is as tough as the Phathead and you will be hard pressed to find anything sharper or that flies better.

I have a slew of them packed away in my bow case right now ready to fly to Africa with me.


----------



## nolimitarchery

I saw the Deep Six broadhead that Rusty is making on saturday. I will tell you this, if you think the original Ulmer head penetrated well you better put a good target behind your test medium because the SS version for the Deep Six is a cool broadhead.

That is coming from his competition


----------



## deanzr2

Subscribed, curious to see how the Grim Reapers fare. Thanks for all of the time and $$ you've put into this!


----------



## benkharr

Man this is awesome thanks for doing all the work and under the same conditions. *Which broadhead has the highest score so far?* Have you tested the NAP 2 Blade Bloodrunner yet?


----------



## eltaco

For anyone wondering, I bought the Shuttle Ts, which I believe might be the current points leader. If anyone wants a photograph with the champion broadhead, I'm only charging $5 per poloroid!


----------



## sethro02

I love phatheads...i love the phathead sob too...i like tinkering and changing things though...i guess im just to get that perfect combo...its addicting.

Dale yes im preparing for it...he will be shipping in about a week..may have to repair drywall afterwards!ukey:

Thanks guys


----------



## 0nepin

Rusty Ulmer,wow. After see your post here I just order two packs of your broadheads because it shows that you have complete confdence in your product .it also shows that care and that it not just about the $$$.one pack I will keep stock but the other pack I'm modify them so rage extreme blade will ,I hope to get around a 2.75" cut if so I will name them the sethro02.75 the will be the big brother to the raging ulmer.I think there is a market for a 2.5"
Or bigger rear deploring broadhead,for us heavy hitter's .thanks Sethro02 and thanks Rusty .


----------



## Michael Myers

0nepin said:


> Rusty Ulmer,wow. After see your post here I just order to pack of your broadheads because it shows that you have complete confdence in your product .it also shows that care and that it not just about the $$$.one pack I will keep stock but the other pack I'm modify them so rage extreme blade will ,I hope to get around a 2.75" cut if so I will name them the sethro02.75 the will be the big brother to the raging ulmer.I think there is a market for a 2.5"
> Or bigger rear deploring broadhead,for us heavy hitter's .thanks Sethro02 and thanks Rusty .


So i took my SS up to the camp on the weekend and shot about 100 arrows and got it dialed in loosely at 40 Yards....Lets just say i am keeping it,I am going today to get my Twisted Archer string and Cables put on it,Which stab is better then the Limbsaver,Not lookin at spending more then 50.00 for a Huntin stab.I Love this Bow,Kicks the Snot out of my Treestand Gx i had...No comparision.Grizz


----------



## sethro02

Yea thats awesome onepin....this is great. Not counting what comes in mail but thers are a ciuple of anticipated jeads tonight


----------



## Michael Myers

sethro02 said:


> Yea thats awesome onepin....this is great. Not counting what comes in mail but thers are a ciuple of anticipated jeads tonight


All the Broadheads i have right now are 100 Gr Rage Broadheads-2-blade...Need 1 for Testing?I Can send one....Grizz


----------



## bigbucks170

excited to see QAD Exodus barbed blades...and solid blades...meat seekers ...and Ram cats... hope it happens


----------



## tanneryrat

That's awesome Rusty!! I was pretty sold on getting Ulmer Edges but that sealed the deal. Sethro, keep up the hard work and thanks for all you've done. The Meat Seekers are on the way and should be there any day.


----------



## sethro02

Thanks guys for donations...one you mentioned will happen! Going to buy ramcats!


----------



## sethro02

If they are in stock!


----------



## chaded

RustyUlmer said:


> Seth, great unbiased testing. Would you like to test the new solid stainless steel Ulmer Edge Deep six designed for the Easton Injection shafts? It is a 125 gr head and we are in the prototype phase of development but I think your readers would like the results you get. Some may say that it is unfair because you will have to use the smaller diameter Injection shaft to do the test but that is part of the system-they were both designed for superior penetration. I can send a prototype head along with an Injection shaft if you are interested. Let me know what weight you want the total shaft/broadhead combination to be.
> Thanks,
> Rusty


Hey Rusty are we going to see a 125 grain for standard diameter shafts?


----------



## 0nepin

TTY can't believe this thread slipped to the second page!!!


----------



## flopduster

I am surprised by the T3 results. I killed five with the same 3 heads last year with great results. This vid shows my Kansas buck which was shot quartering to and the head went through the scapula getting 8" of penetration.

http://youtu.be/In5-V2nv-F0

here is the arrow and head


















I am curious how the blades came out.


----------



## RustyUlmer

A 125 gr aluminum ferrle standard thread version should be out in a month or so.


----------



## sethro02

Way to much speculation going on with the T3...im buying another pack and shooting all 3.


----------



## sethro02

Yea whats up with hitting 2nd page


----------



## sethro02

Ok guys I javent chkd mail yet but these heads I just purchased and are on the card for tonight
1. Ramcats! Finally
2. Nap bloodrunner 2 blade
3. G5 T3 re test! I may shoot all 3 heads so they will unlikely not be for sale.


Ramcats and bloodrunner will be for sale


----------



## pointndog

sethro02 said:


> Way to much speculation going on with the T3...im buying another pack and shooting all 3.



Good Idea, I have some Ulmer Edge's now and plan on using them this year, but have used the t3 since they came out and they have been devastating. I whacked a tree last year and it broke off at the threads but it was buried and looks pretty much deployed....


----------



## ozzz

When are you getting the WTS?!?!?

Good call on re testing the T3 too.

Awesome thread! :thumbs_up


----------



## redkneck

Great thread and great work Seth!


----------



## sethro02

Wts is any day now...this will be last t3 test...im simply cant spend 40 more dollars on these


----------



## 0nepin

ozzz said:


> When are you getting the WTS?!?!?
> 
> Good call on re testing the T3 too.
> 
> Awesome thread! :thumbs_up


I sent them out Saturday, they should be there today.


----------



## sethro02

Thx guys


----------



## chaded

sethro02 said:


> Wts is any day now...this will be last t3 test...im simply cant spend 40 more dollars on these


sethro I commend you for going out and buying more T3's but in reality just because other people have had great results with theirs doesn't mean there are people out there that haven't had one break or in your case had one break. I'm sure you can find the good and bad stories with most broadheads out there. I shot a deer with a T3 last year and it did great but I didn't at all think there was some sort of flaw or anything when I saw what yours did. You tested it and showed what it did in your test good or bad. Keep up the good work. :thumbs_up


----------



## 0nepin

I expect the same that happened to the t3 to happen to the tekan I sent in.I had a very similar thing happen to tekan going through a medium size hog shoulder.


----------



## sethro02

Thank you...here is the deal im not upset...just passionate...you work your butt off...you get paid...you buy broadheads..whichever you choose. Now in my opinion whatever head you go with must now put up or shut up. Not being mean or biased but I do not want doubt...heck I hope these heads all do great because it gives us options...i dont change anything they will all be assembled and installed properly and given one chance to show us what they are made of


----------



## sethro02

We will see tonight


----------



## flopduster

Sethro02, pm me your address and I will donate a wasp jak hammer 1 3/4" if you don't have one yet.


----------



## Indianstick

Really considering the Ulmer Edge for this season.... like what i'm seeing!


----------



## sethro02

Thanks guys...comi.g up with list of donated heads so u know whats coming. Also....wife said 3 packages came today! So their should be at least 6 dufferent ones shot tonight!


----------



## chirohunter73

So excited for tonight!!! Keep up the good work!!!


----------



## HOYT5MAN

Indianstick said:


> Really considering the Ulmer Edge for this season.... like what i'm seeing!


Me too! Going to order some tonight. Thanks again sethro02, your test sealed the deal for me.


----------



## pinski79

0nepin said:


> Rusty Ulmer,wow. After see your post here I just order two packs of your broadheads because it shows that you have complete confdence in your product .it also shows that care and that it not just about the $$$..




He's got my respect. Thinking I'm gonna add some the the quiver


----------



## Whitey375

Sethro, I may have a pile of lovingly used, lol, broadheads I can send your way if you want them. Let me know.


----------



## sethro02

Thx ****** I will let u know...looks like trophy taker is getting sales increase!lol....myson has footnall tonight so it will be later tonight so bare with me...i will post all heads being tested when I get home!


----------



## benkharr

*Can't wait to see the NAP Bloodrunner results!!*


----------



## ozzz

sethro02 said:


> Wts is any day now...this will be last t3 test...im simply cant spend 40 more dollars on these


You should do the WTS tonight if you get it in.


----------



## Kingfish750

Slick Trick Magnum is on its way.


----------



## dorkbuck33

Seth , i got my Rages today. I would like to leave you pos. feedback , but , ??? not sold under classifieds . You are the man !! thank you very much. Heck with a little tlc the test head can run thru some venison this fall . Those heads are scary , never played with one b-4 - sumpin gonna die a bloody mess .


----------



## sethro02

glad ur happy with the rages...ill figure something out on feedback


----------



## chuckatuk

just copy the info in the browser on this page.Then paste it where it says deal or thread on the traders feedback.Then it will let you leave feedback.


----------



## sethro02

tonights lineup:
1. g5 T3..again
2. G5 Tekan (black version)
3. Nap Bloodrunner 2 Blade
4. Grim Reaper Whitetail Special
Then if I have enough time only!!!!
5. Trophy ridge Meatseeker 3 blade 1.5"
6 Trophy Ridge meatseeker 3 blade 2''

Then if i have even more time we will do some fixed blades
1. Nap Thunderhead
2. G5 Striker

i doubt it though


----------



## sethro02

crap...ramcats will be tested too!!!!!!!!!!!


----------



## hedp

sethro02 said:


> crap...ramcats will be tested too!!!!!!!!!!!




Sweet, can't wait for the Ramcats.




The only other BH I'm interested in is the QAD Exodus.
.


----------



## chuckatuk

man you will be busy tonight...LOL thanks again.I have enjoyed this thread.And really appreciate the time you are taking to post results.


----------



## kdog23

Sethro you are the BOMB!!! I am loving this and can't wait to see what happens next, this is far and above the best and fairest test I ahve seen. especially at this point you should stop spending your money as many of us have already benefitted a ton from this.


----------



## Boston Shooter

I looked but didnt see it, was a slick trick tested?


----------



## dorkbuck33

chuckatuk said:


> just copy the info in the browser on this page.Then paste it where it says deal or thread on the traders feedback.Then it will let you leave feedback.


thanks , buddy ! will get that done. appreciate it !


----------



## sethro02

Tricks have not been tested...they r in mail


----------



## ORROSS334

How about F-15's I can send you a fixed blade to try out..... let me know. Also have you checked out the Red Feather Pheonix?


----------



## Kansas Bruisers

Looking forward to more testing. I was surprised the Montec didn't get more penetration.


----------



## sethro02

Alot of people were surprised at montecs. I think alot of coc heads may be at a disadvantage unless its a super short ferrule design


----------



## sethro02

Hold off on the f15 I may have one coming


----------



## ozzz

sethro02 said:


> tonights lineup:
> 1. g5 T3..again
> 2. G5 Tekan (black version)
> 3. Nap Bloodrunner 2 Blade
> 4. Grim Reaper Whitetail Special
> Then if I have enough time only!!!!
> 5. Trophy ridge Meatseeker 3 blade 1.5"
> 6 Trophy Ridge meatseeker 3 blade 2''
> 
> Then if i have even more time we will do some fixed blades
> 1. Nap Thunderhead
> 2. G5 Striker
> 
> i doubt it though


Yeah buddy.


----------



## olemossyhorns

I just read all 20 pages of this thread. Great job on the testing! I've really enjoyed reading it and will continue to follow up with this thread! Thank you for all your hard work on this testing.


----------



## tapout155

sethro02 said:


> tonights lineup:
> 1. g5 T3..again
> 2. G5 Tekan (black version)
> 3. Nap Bloodrunner 2 Blade
> 4. Grim Reaper Whitetail Special
> Then if I have enough time only!!!!
> 5. Trophy ridge Meatseeker 3 blade 1.5"
> 6 Trophy Ridge meatseeker 3 blade 2''
> 
> Then if i have even more time we will do some fixed blades
> 1. Nap Thunderhead
> 2. G5 Striker
> 
> i doubt it though


sounds like the best lineup yet, I have been looking at almost everyone of those heads for this year.


----------



## sethro02

Thanks guys..you also have to have an understanding wife to do this...she will be happy when im done though


----------



## d_money

U should really try the f15. I have one fixed but it's been shot into a target many times. But that's the best penitration bh I have ever shot. I shot a brand new block black with mine and it blew threw all the way to the fletchings.


----------



## ORROSS334

copy that they are impressive from what I have seen on my buck. 42 yards quartering away thru the far scapula all 6 blade marks in the bone, it was AWESOME.....just want to see if that was a fluke...


----------



## sharpsticksauer

I will guess that the meatseeker will brake blades


----------



## mdnabors

I'm anxious to see the Reaper WTS too. I shoot them and know the massive wound channel they create first hand, BUT I still kinda doubt their penetration in THIS particular test. The cut through the gelatin should be sick though! I have wondered for a few years how they would do through bone (shoulder specifically). I have fortunately put all mine through the vitals and not hit bone...yet :wink: This may be as close a test as possible to simulate that. Ready for some more results!


----------



## sethro02

If you want to send me an f15...could you please pm me? I can mail it back,if you need it after.


Sorry that testing is later tonight...wish I could do it now!


----------



## CopperGOAT

Whew, just read all 21 pages....and let me say, YOU ARE THE MAN!!!

I shot the 2 blade bloodrunners about 2 years back from a 330 FPS crossbow into a six pointer. Shot at about 8 yards from tree stand into front shoulder crease and it penetrated about 5" and then worked its way out. (Not the best shot) the head looked great, the deer ran about 250 yards and was a hard track...swapped to the G5 T3's and haven't looked back.

The T3's actually shoot better than my field points out to 30 yards (I've split two arrows and crushed a many of bottle caps with them).


----------



## carbon injector

sethro02, I am very impressed with your work. You are an exceptional scientist. My hat is off to you.:thumb:


----------



## kyhunter5569

After these test either ulmers edge or still thinking g5 t3's


----------



## Michael Myers

Well,I am switching to 125 Gr Broadheads...Was told to get the Most out of my Setup by my Bow tech that i would be better off with 125 Gr Broadheads...So i am taking his advice...I Trust his Judgement...Here is his Shop...Great guy,He was telling me of Steelforce Broadheads 2 Weeks ago..Im Convinced....http://www.southnationarchery.com/


----------



## Fortyneck

GrizzlyMan1980 said:


> Well,I am switching to 125 Gr Broadheads...Was told to get the Most out of my Setup by my Bow tech that i would be better off with 125 Gr Broadheads...So i am taking his advice...I Trust his Judgement...Here is his Shop...Great guy,He was telling me of Steelforce Broadheads 2 Weeks ago..Im Convinced....http://www.southnationarchery.com/


I like the looks of their 145s. You know they grind some single bevel too.


----------



## Michael Myers

Fortyneck said:


> I like the looks of their 145s.


I am beat man,I Shot 300 arrows this aft tryin to get my 2 Bows New String and Cables Settled,I Fired for 3 Hrs,Got them settled finnaly,Said for me to get the most out of my Setups,Both shootin the Same weight with a .400 Spine that the 125 Gr were the way to go..So i am getting rid of my Rage and Going with Steelforce...I Turned both my Bows down to 60 Lbs today,Actually Wanted too.No need for me to Shoot over 60 lbs....


----------



## Infamousfrog

sethro02 said:


> crap...ramcats will be tested too!!!!!!!!!!!


Seth,
Can't wait to see the outcomes of these. Are these the new 2012 version?


----------



## Fortyneck

GrizzlyMan1980 said:


> I am beat man,I Shot 300 arrows this aft tryin to get my 2 Bows New String and Cables Settled,I Fired for 3 Hrs,Got them settled finnaly,Said for me to get the most out of my Setups,Both shootin the Same weight with a .400 Spine that the 125 Gr were the way to go..So i am getting rid of my Rage and Going with Steelforce...I Turned both my Bows down to 60 Lbs today,Actually Wanted too.No need for me to Shoot over 60 lbs....


I don't know how short you cut your arrows, but I would guess that 145s would weaken a .400 spine too much, but droppin' DW would help.

Don't burn your shoulder out, your gonna def. feel it tomorrow.


----------



## Michael Myers

Fortyneck said:


> I don't know how short you cut your arrows, but I would guess that 145s would weaken a .400 spine too much, but droppin' DW would help.
> 
> Don't burn your shoulder out, your gonna def. feel it tomorrow.


28" Draw,29" Arrow..Goin with the 125's...But im Done with Mechanicals...I Like Rage but im Done with them,Want Steelforce...Or Maybe Muzzy MX-4 125 Gr.


----------



## Norwegian Woods

This thread is really picking up speed.
And with good reasons 
Great job *sethro02*! 
Looking forward to see how well the next BHs do in the test 

Must say I am most of all looking forward to how all the Slick Tricks and the prototype Ulmer is sending you, will do


----------



## sethro02

here we go Round 4 Mechanicals! sorry for delay again.
1. g5 t3...again
2. g5 tekan ( black version)
3. grim reaper whitetail special
4. Nap Bloodrunner 2 blades
thanks onepin for tekan and reaper

make your predictions


----------



## eltaco

I'll choose number 4... but its a WAG since I don't know much about expandables.


----------



## sethro02

pm's returned


----------



## 3dn4jc

Subscribed


----------



## ozzz

Im hoping for the WTS to show up because thats what Im wanting to hunt with this fall but we will see what happens here.

I hope the G5 fails again.


----------



## jctd18

I cant wait to see the ramcats performance. Never heard of them before i joined this forum. Thanks for all the time and money you put into this.


----------



## Fortyneck

sethro02 said:


> here we go Round 4 Mechanicals! sorry for delay again.
> 1. g5 t3...again
> 2. g5 tekan ( black version)
> 3. grim reaper whitetail special
> 4. Nap Bloodrunner 2 blades
> thanks onepin for tekan and reaper
> 
> make your predictions
> View attachment 1408737


BRING IT!!!
:clap:


----------



## Michael Myers

sethro02 said:


> here we go Round 4 Mechanicals! sorry for delay again.
> 1. g5 t3...again
> 2. g5 tekan ( black version)
> 3. grim reaper whitetail special
> 4. Nap Bloodrunner 2 blades
> thanks onepin for tekan and reaper
> 
> make your predictions
> View attachment 1408737


Grim Reapers will win,I Shot 2 Blade Bloodrunners and wasnt overly impressed...We will see...Grizz


----------



## jhauser

Awsome thread


----------



## jsnole

I believe the RamCats will do very well here.


----------



## iwantone2.4

im ready to see this one!


----------



## BILLDOGGE

So excited!


----------



## TP63

This thread is great!!! I check it out everyday


----------



## harveywallhangr

Well we are waiting??


----------



## BILLDOGGE

Give him time. Can you imagine the time he is putting into this.


----------



## Michael Myers

BILLDOGGE said:


> Give him time. Can you imagine the time he is putting into this.


He is doing a Fantastic Job...Time and Lots of Money,This is the Best thread i have seen in my 4 Years on AT.Grizz


----------



## TauntoHawk

harveywallhangr said:


> Well we are waiting??


If the man is on here posting he can't be in his garage testing.


----------



## BILLDOGGE

I think the same Grizz


----------



## tanneryrat

GrizzlyMan1980 said:


> He is doing a Fantastic Job...Time and Lots of Money,This is the Best thread i have seen in my 4 Years on AT.Grizz


X2

This is a TON of work and a lot of money he's put into this. Yeah, people are donating some heads but the cost of the materials are out of his pocket.


----------



## B-tech fanatic

Seth, you have a paypal acct? I'll gift you some cash tonight. No reason you should have to spend that much with all of us benefitting.


----------



## tiger77

Awesome thread, I use grim reapers but I predict that the white tail special will not have near the penetration on the regular 1 3/8. When I called grim reapers customer service, they said the angle of the blades is what makes the difference. The 1 3/8 are more swept back so it bust through with less resistance. Again, nice job Seth.


----------



## ozzz

tiger77 said:


> Awesome thread, I use grim reapers but I predict that the white tail special will not have near the penetration on the regular 1 3/8. When I called grim reapers customer service, they said the angle of the blades is what makes the difference. The 1 3/8 are more swept back so it bust through with less resistance. Again, nice job Seth.


News flash


----------



## sethro02

t3 again test results... I am not shooting this head again!
penetration- 8
durability- 1 ( 1 blade came off i'll tell you what i think happend in a minute)
dependability- 4
sharp before- 5
sharp after-4
flight- 5
total score- 27 out of 53


----------



## sethro02

t3


----------



## rayzor43

sethro02 said:


> the vpa guy is on here all the time. maybe he will send one to prove they would dominate like everyone sais they do.
> Update:
> The gelatin is curing for tomorrow!



Ok we're in.


----------



## sethro02

g5 tekan test results;
penetration- 9
durability- 4 (slight, slight bend in blades)
dependability- 4
sharp before- 5
sharp after- 4
flight- 5
total score- 31 out of 53


----------



## sethro02

rayzor your pm didnt show up?


----------



## rayzor43

Are all these heads 100s?


----------



## sethro02

guys the tekan penetration pic is not uploading


----------



## sethro02

yes, but i can accept a 125 to do on the side


----------



## kyhunter5569

That's all I needed to see no g5 t3's this year 
Why you think blade came off??


----------



## sethro02

grim whitetail special test results
penetration- 9.5
durability- 0 fail
dependability- 2 ( bottom blad was almost all the way open)
sharp before- 5
sharp after- 3
flight- 5
total score- 24.5 out of 53

Guys im uploading all pics that i can. some do some don't , im trying


----------



## sethro02

let me finish this first then we will talk t3


----------



## jjtrain44

i knew the black tekans would hold up even though they got trashed earlier by someone in this thread


----------



## sethro02

grim wts


----------



## BRUKSHOT

Awesome thread Sethro! You are da man! I can't wait to see how the Ramcats perform. Keep up the great work!!!


----------



## ozzz

Huge bummer on the WTS! I want details.



Maybe try re sizing the pics, I have had that problem on thi site.


----------



## sethro02

nap bloodrunner 2 blade test results
penetration- 6 ( head hit opposite side but stopped) ( thats why it looks like the arrow is angling down towards the ground)
durability- 2 ( its stuck on full deployment)
dependability- 5
sharp before- 5
sharp after- 3
flight- 5
total score- 26 out of 53


----------



## sethro02

blood runner 2 blade


----------



## sethro02

blood runner 2 blade


----------



## rayzor43

PM me your address.


----------



## dorkbuck33

harveywallhangr said:


> Well we are waiting??


Well deserved to be put on Seths ignore list . Bam - no more waiting.


----------



## sethro02

round 4 mechanicals after math


----------



## sethro02

First off sorry for taking so long! I have a 9 month old and a 6 year old with a bunch of energy


----------



## Texoma

sethro02 said:


> First off sorry for taking so long! I have a 9 month old and a 6 year old with a bunch of energy


No need for you to apologize!


----------



## sethro02

T3- Everytime I have shot this head it has trashed the end of my axis nfused. i could use broadhead adapter rings but then that wouldnt be fair to the other heads. the end of my arrows only after shooting the t3 are chipped (ruined) that HAS to create the space small enough for the blades to slip out. Does this just happen to me?! Maybe, I do not know. All I know is if i had the easton b.a.r. at the end of the shaft it may have made a difference. I will not shoot this head again. it is simply unfair to keep shooting the same one. If you like the head great! keep using it! The blades were not in bad shape. the one that came off "looked" like it could be reused. I put it back in the channel and it seemed "ok".


----------



## sethro02

Grim WTS- I cannot find that blade anywhere !!!! this head was not at all opened up until it started hitting the gel


----------



## kdog23

Texoma said:


> No need for you to apologize!


Correct. You are doing us all an invaluable service!


----------



## Texoma

Is there a chunk missing from the tip of the WTS?


----------



## UTGrad

So why did the Whitetail Special fail??


----------



## sethro02

no there is not a chunk missing from wts


----------



## sethro02

it failed because if the blade comes off and i cant find it i consider breakage a fail


----------



## jjtrain44

how about that tekan that was a waste of time sending for a test, seems like it held together just fine and outscored the all mighty rage .......oh i am so glad i chose not to get rid of mine for this season they have been so good in the past and will be so good in the future


----------



## JLArcher

I believe that the reaper wts version was the Mathews model. Those are the only ones, I believe, that are gold colored. They also have a slightly different tip design.


----------



## Wolfey

jjtrain44 said:


> how about that tekan that was a waste of time sending for a test, seems like it held together just fine and outscored the all mighty rage .......oh i am so glad i chose not to get rid of mine for this season they have been so good in the past and will be so good in the future


+1 I just stocked up on blades and o-rings for my tekans and will be using them for a few years at least


----------



## sethro02

hang on posting ramcat!


----------



## 0nepin

JLArcher said:


> I believe that the reaper wts version was the Mathews model. Those are the only ones, I believe, that are gold colored. They also have a slightly different tip design.


It was the Mathews edition.


----------



## ozzz

0nepin said:


> It was the Mathews edition.


That must be why it sucked it up.


----------



## 0nepin

jjtrain44 said:


> how about that tekan that was a waste of time sending for a test, seems like it held together just fine and outscored the all mighty rage .......oh i am so glad i chose not to get rid of mine for this season they have been so good in the past and will be so good in the future


I sent the tekan in and after braking a few blades while hunting I am suprized it did as well as it did , but it is what it is.the blood trials I got were alot weaker than I get with rage.Good work sethro02.


----------



## Michael Myers

sethro02 said:


> nap bloodrunner 2 blade test results
> penetration- 6 ( head hit opposite side but stopped) ( thats why it looks like the arrow is angling down towards the ground)
> durability- 2 ( its stuck on full deployment)
> dependability- 5
> sharp before- 5
> sharp after- 3
> flight- 5
> total score- 26 out of 53
> View attachment 1408831


Ya i wasnt impressed with the Bloodrunners last summer..I am surprised about the Reapers...Will have to let my Buddy know...He gloats about how there the Best head ever...Yet he has only killed 1 Deer with them and missed the other 2,Lol...Keep up the Good work...Do you need 100 Gr. Rage 2 Blade to Test,I Can send some your way,Might be a Week to arrive,I am in Canada ,Eh...


----------



## 0nepin

ozzz said:


> That must be why it sucked it up.


Haha could be .I was going to send the Hoyt edition but I broke them taking them out the pack.


----------



## sethro02

Ramcat Test Results
penetration- 20
durability- 3 ( all blade tips were bent in slightly, reduced cutting diameter)
dependablity- 5
sharp before -5 ( scary sharp)
sharp after- 4
flight- 5
total score- 42 out of 53


----------



## sethro02

ramcat


----------



## tiger77

I don't believe the tip on the Mathews type is as good as the normal, IMO, that's why I strayed away from them


----------



## sethro02

ram cat after math


----------



## jjtrain44

0nepin said:


> I sent the tekan in and after braking a few blades while hunting I am suprized it did as well as it did , but it is what it is.the blood trials I got were alot weaker than I get with rage.


its ok, i understand its tough to swallow the results, a few year old tekan beats the " all new and improved" Rage ......


----------



## sethro02

i just tested that particular grim reaper because it was donated. Their are more coming


----------



## TimmyZ7

The WTS I sent Brdymakr made it through a shoulder with all three blades intact. The entry was all three blades on impact of the ballistic gel. I sent him the Razor Tip version. Not that I am doubting your attention to detail but did you throw the head on as it was sent or did you align all the rings your self? Thanks again for the hard work you are putting in. I can send you another WTS that I am positive will perform well!


----------



## suterst

I knew the blades would bend on the ramcats, but they will stay intact going through bone, Yes super sharp blades. Been waiting all 23 pages for this test. Love these broadheads. Thanks for all the hard work, time and effort.


----------



## sethro02

no need to get this heated....Guys im spent...i will test more tomorrow...for you fixed blade guys. i believe there is a thunderhead here and a striker and whatever comes tomorrow. also for tomorrow i have the meatseekers i spoke of earlier.


----------



## sethro02

Ramcats for sale $25tyd

Nap bloodrunners. sold pending payment


----------



## JLArcher

sethro02 said:


> i just tested that particular grim reaper because it was donated. Their are more coming


If you don't receive them, I can send a pack or a head down, what ever you prefer. I live 2 hours north of you, shouldn't take but a day to get to you.


----------



## sethro02

ok i will let you know on grims. please pm me too remind me thanks


----------



## UTGrad

Heck i just swapped out my 2" cut Reapers for the 1.5" cuts after this test lol! I do believe the shorter ferrule on the original Reapers is what makes them crazy tough.


----------



## sethro02

on a side note about BALLISTICS GEL in this test:

For the H**l of it i took out the gel....shot a new t3...buried it to the fletchings......put gel back in.....shot another new t3...8 inches penetration. not bashing t3 just stating how tough that stuff is! hope you all enjoyed,.,im sleeping


----------



## Michael Myers

sethro02 said:


> Ramcat Test Results
> penetration- 20
> durability- 3 ( all blade tips were bent in slightly, reduced cutting diameter)
> dependablity- 5
> sharp before -5 ( scary sharp)
> sharp after- 4
> flight- 5
> total score- 42 out of 53
> View attachment 1408861


I Figured thats What would happen great penetration and the Blades would bend...personally if i get a Kill with a Broadhead...If it's unusable again..Oh Well,Great Job,Seth.


----------



## ozzz

TimmyZ7 said:


> The WTS I sent Brdymakr made it through a shoulder with all three blades intact. The entry was all three blades on impact of the ballistic gel. I sent him the Razor Tip version. Not that I am doubting your attention to detail but did you throw the head on as it was sent or did you align all the rings your self? Thanks again for the hard work you are putting in. * I can send you another WTS that I am positive will perform well*!


Please


----------



## BigGarr

i just read all 23 pages today only stopped to go to work i also would like to see the f15 tested thanks for donating all your time and money to this i dont think you know how much every one appreciates this.


----------



## chirohunter73

So far ulmer edge, shuttle T's, and ramcats are on the top of my list.


----------



## 0nepin

jjtrain44 said:


> its ok, i understand its tough to swallow the results, a few year old tekan beats the " all new and improved" Rage ......


Ok it did well.


----------



## tapout155

I just wanted to say thanks for doing this test! This is awesome and it's great that you are wasting your time and your money just to give us some entertainment. although i think you have attained rockstar status on here. Thanks again.


----------



## Ghost23

I read on some forum that someone used plastic pipe, fusiotherm I think, or some kind of stiff pvc wrapped in wet newspaper. They were testing swords or something.


----------



## hooiserarcher

Seth, Thanks for all the hard work and money and time spent on these test. My hat is off to you!


----------



## UTGrad

Thanks for these test!


----------



## tack09

Thanks for all the testing tonight. Don't let all the negative post on the results get in the way of all this. There is a lot of ATers who are really enjoying your unbiased testing.


----------



## Laplacesdemon

chirohunter73 said:


> So far ulmer edge, shuttle T's, and ramcats are on the top of my list.


No surprise, the heads with the smallest total cutting area are going to score best in any test that counts penetration for more than half the score and doesn't award any points at all for cutting area. A field point would dominate under the current scoring system--unmatched penetration and perfect durability and dependability! With these super-small total cutting area heads you had better hope your bad shots are all into bone and not into the much larger areas of guts, liver, or soft tissue where you are counting on massive trauma or hitting an artery.

Love the tests, lots of valuable information, much gratitude to the tester...but making a decision based just on the currently scored factors would be foolish.


----------



## Whitey375

Maybe I missed it, but what are you doing to test the gelatin for consistency from batch to batch?


----------



## hedp

sethro02 said:


> Ramcat Test Results
> penetration- 20
> durability- 3 ( all blade tips were bent in slightly, reduced cutting diameter)
> dependablity- 5
> sharp before -5 ( scary sharp)
> sharp after- 4
> flight- 5
> total score- 42 out of 53
> View attachment 1408861





I haven't read all of them, is this a good score?
.


----------



## hedp

Laplacesdemon said:


> No surprise, the heads with the smallest total cutting area are going to score best in any test that counts penetration for more than half the score and doesn't award any points at all for cutting area. A field point would dominate under the current scoring system--unmatched penetration and perfect durability and dependability! With these super-small total cutting area heads you had better hope your bad shots are all into bone and not into the much larger areas of guts, liver, or soft tissue where you are counting on massive trauma or hitting an artery.
> 
> Love the tests, lots of valuable information, much gratitude to the tester...but making a decision based just on the currently scored factors would be foolish.





I don't know about the Ulmer Edge, but haven't the rest of these broadheads proven to be very good?
.


----------



## ozzz

Laplacesdemon said:


> No surprise, the heads with the smallest total cutting area are going to score best in any test that counts penetration for more than half the score and doesn't award any points at all for cutting area. A field point would dominate under the current scoring system--unmatched penetration and perfect durability and dependability! With these super-small total cutting area heads you had better hope your bad shots are all into bone and not into the much larger areas of guts, liver, or soft tissue where you are counting on massive trauma or hitting an artery.
> 
> Love the tests, lots of valuable information, much gratitude to the tester...but making a decision based just on the currently scored factors would be foolish.


Good post.


----------



## tack09

*really*


whitey375 said:


> maybe i missed it, but what are you doing to test the gelatin for consistency from batch to batch?


----------



## 0nepin

Whitey375 said:


> Maybe I missed it, but what are you doing to test the gelatin for consistency from batch to batch?


Really guys y'all are being way to anal.this is by far the best test and thread on AT sofar , let's not turn this great thread and all Seth hard Work into a pissing match.everybody has to remember Seth is just like the rest of us working and trying to raise a family.


----------



## 0nepin

hedp said:


> I haven't read all of them, is this a good score?
> .


Yes it is a very good score.


----------



## HC Knives

Laplacesdemon said:


> No surprise, the heads with the smallest total cutting area are going to score best in any test that counts penetration for more than half the score and doesn't award any points at all for cutting area. A field point would dominate under the current scoring system--unmatched penetration and perfect durability and dependability! With these super-small total cutting area heads you had better hope your bad shots are all into bone and not into the much larger areas of guts, liver, or soft tissue where you are counting on massive trauma or hitting an artery.
> 
> Love the tests, lots of valuable information, much gratitude to the tester...but making a decision based just on the currently scored factors would be foolish.


I agree with you but I dont think it would be foolish. Any data is worth considering and if this is all one has to use then it wouldnt be a wrong or bad choice if one had no other data. I know one thing that this thread has me considering is that I wont use a BH that has blades to break off. The thought of myself or someone Im feeding swallowing a piece of BH doesn't appeal to me so for that reason Ill never use a huge wide cutting blade. (Yes I realize most thinner bladed heads can break,but the larger bladed ones seem to tend to do that more so, from this and other tests I have seen)
With my 2 cents and a buck you can get coffee.


----------



## kthiltgen

0nepin said:


> really guys y'all are being way to anal.this is by far the best test and thread on at sofar , let's not turn this great thread and all seth hard work into a pissing match.everybody has to remember seth is just like the rest of us working and trying to raise a family.


Amen!


----------



## Fortyneck

0nepin said:


> Really guys y'all are being way to anal.*this is by far the best test and thread on AT sofar* , let's not turn this great thread and all Seth hard Work into a pissing match.everybody has to remember Seth is just like the rest of us working and trying to raise a family.


Have you seen Whitey375's tests?


----------



## 0nepin

sethro02 said:


> thanks alot everybody. I will have to have a carnage score at the end! I dont have a jack hammer yet but i'll look today after work! tonight should have some good heads guys!


There will be a carnage score at the end so scoring will Change that will help the bigger heads .the raging ulmer looks like it will the complete performer.


----------



## 0nepin

Fortyneck said:


> Have you seen Whitey375's tests?


Yes and whitey375's did a very good job.


----------



## pinski79

I tried to send set a mongrel head, but it cut my mail box in half


----------



## 0nepin

pinski79 said:


> I tried to send set a mongrel head, but it cut my mail box in half


Haha ****e that funny.


----------



## pinski79

0nepin said:


> ****e .


losts o bad words going around today


----------



## Randallpink

Seth,

Do you need a Slick Trick 100g Standard? I can give you a brand new one, only fired in foam twice.


----------



## Whitey375

tack09 said:


> *really*


Yup, really


----------



## Whitey375

0nepin said:


> Really guys y', all are being way to anal.this is by far the best test and thread on AT sofar , let's not turn this great thr	ead and all Seth hard Work into a pissing match.everybody has to remember Seth is just like the rest of us working and trying to raise a family.


Not being pissy, just asking. I know that when I was testing, I could make gelatin darn near impenetrable, or I could make it as thin as grape jelly. So when I read he doubled up hod gelatin packets, I figured I'd ask. And *** does this have to do with his family?


----------



## Whitey375

My apologies Seth, carry on.


----------



## gdouty

I will donate a swhacker 100gr 2inch if you don't already have one to test. I would really like to see the G5 Striker tested also, but it sounds like you have that already. If not I will donate that also. Pm me your address. Thanks for the work you are putting in.


----------



## BearArcher1980

Thank you Seth for another awesome round of testing!!! Keep it up man, best thread by far on AT in my opinion...Thanks toeveryone donating heads for the test...Onepin, thanks man


----------



## iwantone2.4

Good job seth! very informative tests...:thumbs_up


----------



## olemossyhorns

I would like to see swacker 2 blade and the F15


----------



## olemossyhorns

Inbox is full Seth


----------



## ChuckA84

Glad to see that the ramcats performed so well. They are also getting more penetration than magnus stingers from my fiances bow at 35 pounds and 25 inch draw.


----------



## sixgunluv

For me it's between buying more of the Slick Trick Viper Tricks or checking out the Muzzy Mx-3 125 3blade. I'm curious to see the results of the Viper Trick test.

Currently shooting the Original Muzzy 125gr 3 blade but wanting to go to a steel Ferrel head. At this point i'm leaning toward the Mx-3's because i like the strength of the blade retention design of the Muzzy and also i like the fact that the trocar tip is replaceable. 
Not so with the Viper's. If you happen to bend the tip on a rock... it's kaput. Not knocking the Slick Trick just personal preference, no doubt the Slick Trick's fly great, are extremely strong and it's my guess... will beat the Mx-3 in the upcoming test for penetration.


----------



## sethro02

oh my god...sorry i woke up to an overwelming explosion of remarks and pm's.. im gonna try to sort all this out. im working on deleting messgages..

First. I make my gel EXACTLY THE SAME WAY everytime. it is as consistent as it can get!

Second. Thanks to all donated heads and all support. 

Third. Yes it does take time to do this. the computer part is the longest part!


----------



## sethro02

if you pm about the schwaker that would be great. let me delete some messages first so you can send me one.... Also my email is [email protected]


----------



## sethro02

****** i used 2 packets per 3/4 cup of water for every batch. it takes 16 packets to make one mold. i do it the same everytime. i found it to be the most realistic


----------



## sethro02

At the end of this this there will be a total cutting area score!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I did not put it in on the fiirst few tests so i am notating it on all of this to add it at the end!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


----------



## sethro02

guys if i missed something sorry....im trying to return all feedback and messges. i deleted some messages so should be ok for now. and thanks for the friends requests!


----------



## BASSFAN07

Seth,
Keep up the good work. If people want more from a broad head test than you are providing, let them do it themselves. Thanks for your time and effort. Archers helping archers. One of the best threads ever on AT. 



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## sethro02

Thank you bassfan...i just figured if they wanted total cutting surface area they would just take the penetration and do the math with what the cutting diameter is....but im happy to do it but it takes time....it took 2 hrs to test and post 4 heads...not to mention cutting wood and making gel


----------



## Whitey375

Test Protocol: The gelatin is 100% pure from Kind & Knox. It is mixed to 10% and calibrated using a .177 BB at 590 fps to a penetration range of 7.5 -9.5 cm.....
This is what I was talking about.


----------



## sethro02

Oh gotcha...i simply made a few different batches until I found an acceptable version


----------



## IndianaPSE

sethro02, any chance you can post the scores to date all on one page to read together, side by side?

THANKS so much for this - AWESOME THREAD!!!


----------



## sethro02

Yes sir I can but I left for wrk so it will have to be latef today


----------



## huntin4Christ

Easily the most informative thread I have seen on AT..........thanks for all the hard work Seth.


----------



## ChuckA84

IndianaPSE said:


> sethro02, any chance you can post the scores to date all on one page to read together, side by side?
> 
> THANKS so much for this - AWESOME THREAD!!!


rage chisel 2 blade = 29

g5 t3 = 26, 27

ulmer edge = 43

steel force sabertooth ss = 33

steel force phathead = 45 (sethro said 46 but when I added up his scoring I got 45?)

g5 montec ss = 31

nap killzone trophy tip = 21

nap spitfire standard = 22

trophy ridge steelhead xl = 27

steelhead standard = 29

tru fire t1 = 36

trophy taker shuttle t = 48

the reign = 33

rage titanium extreme = 29

muzzy mx-3 = 39.5

g5 tekan = 31

grim whitetail special = 24.5

nap bloodrunner 2 blade = 26

ramcat = 42


----------



## Indianstick

chirohunter73 said:


> so far ulmer edge, shuttle t's, and ramcats are on the top of my list.


x2!


----------



## sethro02

Chucka84...i owe you something for that!


----------



## Indianstick

Any chance we get to see the new Rage 2 blade Extreme? By the way, the best thread on AT!! keep up the good work.


----------



## ChuckA84

sethro02 said:


> Chucka84...i owe you something for that!


No, we all owe you something for all this time and money you've invested into these tests!


----------



## sethro02

Ill see what I can do on the extreme..thx guys


----------



## seiowabow

Looks like I may be trying the shuttle t's this year

Sent from my DROID4 using Tapatalk 2


----------



## eltaco

Awesome work Sethro! Thank you so much for the work you are putting into this!

Don't get discouraged if it gets a little heated. Everyone here wants their BH of choice to be successful and it is hard to see it do poorly if you've had good results in the field! The truth is, all of these heads will do the job on a perfect shot. Testing all heads with the same procedure helps us determine how they will compare against eachother under imperfect shot placement conditions!


----------



## Grizz1219

This is definitely the most informative post EVER.... Thanks for taking the time to do all the work...


----------



## Wildhunter19

0nepin said:


> Really guys y'all are being way to anal.this is by far the best test and thread on AT sofar , let's not turn this great thread and all Seth hard Work into a pissing match.everybody has to remember Seth is just like the rest of us working and trying to raise a family.


This I agree with. And thanks Seth for your time and effort on the broadheads.


----------



## sethro02

Thanks guys I agree eltaco


----------



## string music

Happy to see the results of the Ramcats. Thanks for doing this awesome test Seth


----------



## JLArcher

I wonder if there are any broadhead manufacturers paying attention to this thread. 

I would be if I were they. This whole thread is great marketing research and brand loyalty research.


----------



## JLArcher

So if I were to purchase a pack of shuttle t's do I want the black ones?


----------



## sethro02

Jlarcher...the silver and black shuttle t's are identical as far as I could tell


----------



## sethro02

And yes several companies have contacted me


----------



## BigGarr

do you have an f15 coming?


----------



## evasiveone

sethro02 said:


> And yes several companies have contacted me


Good or bad, would love to know what they are commenting.

Also time to buy some stock in shuttle t's and ramacats:wink:


----------



## nolimitarchery

eltaco said:


> Awesome work Sethro! Thank you so much for the work you are putting into this!
> 
> Don't get discouraged if it gets a little heated. Everyone here wants their BH of choice to be successful and it is hard to see it do poorly if you've had good results in the field! The truth is, all of these heads will do the job on a perfect shot. Testing all heads with the same procedure helps us determine how they will compare against eachother under imperfect shot placement conditions!


I totally agree with this statement. 

Taking all the scores and then adding in the CARNAGE factor will give you a list of heads you can look at to shoot this year depending on what you as an archer are looking for. Remember broadheads are about your bad shots not your good one!


----------



## qmb9015

evasiveone said:


> Good or bad, would love to know what they are commenting.


x2.


----------



## nolimitarchery

JLArcher said:


> I wonder if there are any broadhead manufacturers paying attention to this thread.
> 
> I would be if I were they. This whole thread is great marketing research and brand loyalty research.


Yes we are.

I am the creator of the Grave Digger and Seth should receive them today. I was also talking with Rusty Ulmer and I know he is sending some heads in also. I think this is a great test. I know the Ulmer Edge will out penetrate the Grave Digger but the Grave Digger will do way more damage. So that is where you the bowhunter has to choose what you are looking for.


----------



## ole' bowhunter

eltaco said:


> Awesome work Sethro! Thank you so much for the work you are putting into this!
> 
> Don't get discouraged if it gets a little heated. Everyone here wants their BH of choice to be successful and it is hard to see it do poorly if you've had good results in the field! The truth is, all of these heads will do the job on a perfect shot. Testing all heads with the same procedure helps us determine how they will compare against eachother under imperfect shot placement conditions!


I agree 100%. A perfect shot with a SHARP head = dead animal, usually. 
I remember a thread on AT of a ST test on an old refrigerator, and that sold me on Slick Tricks. Heck, I started with the old Bear BH's with the little, (I think they called it a blood insert) and they were glue on and hard as h### to get on right for me, but I killed a lot of deer with them. Most modern heads will do the job if we do our job.


----------



## sethro02

Like mentioned gravedigger is sending some...rusty is sending some prototypes..i think vpa may get in on it as well....glad you guys are digging it...already working on other projects


----------



## sethro02

All good from them so far...they like seeing a regular hunter testing all of them the same...i dont know anybody from these companies im simply testing then sharing. I applaud them for putting therd product in the testing!


----------



## MountsOnTheWall

i would also like to see the NAP 2 blade blood runners and the swhackers. I am caught between which one to buy and this probably would be the deciding test.


----------



## Michael Myers

MountsOnTheWall said:


> i would also like to see the NAP 2 blade blood runners and the swhackers. I am caught between which one to buy and this probably would be the deciding test.


He tested the Nap Bloodrunners last night.Grizz


----------



## jsnole

Thanks for your work Seth! I am happy with shooting my RamCats. All the tests and testimonies i have seen, they just perform... Cant wait till i can add mine to the list.


----------



## JLArcher

Shipping those original grim reapers right now. Should get them tomorrow afternoon.


----------



## sethro02

Still wrkng on a shwacker...thx for the reapers


----------



## eltaco

Seth, I have no idea what kind of financial burden you are taking on by running these tests. Would you mind throwing out your PayPal info to kick some funds at you?

I would suggest anyone benefitting from this test throw just a few bucks at Seth, small price to pay for some solid data!


----------



## robd

Great test Seth!!! Any intrest in testing a QAD EXODUS??? It's similiar to a ramcat but has stronger blades.


----------



## JLArcher

Hey you are providing a lot of good info. Even if a broadhead company had this data they probably wouldn't be willing to share it freely. So, what ever I can do to support the testing.


----------



## qmb9015

robd said:


> Great test Seth!!! Any intrest in testing a QAD EXODUS??? It's similiar to a ramcat but has stronger blades.


he will probably test anything you send him just pm him and he should tell ya i sent one to him thats not popular but i think it should do alright


----------



## sethro02

Yes trying to do an exodus


----------



## kyhunter5569

Man I just want you to know I feel this is the best thread on archerytalk ever since I started getting on here!!!
Thanks so much for what your doing 

Can't wait to see all these scores tallied up on one page 

Keep doing what your doing man!!!!


----------



## d_money

Ok here are some of the bh's u haven't tested that I have and willing to send u. Carbon express f 15 but it's used if shapened a little it should perform like new, crimson talon hyper spin, carbon express quad pro look like razor tricks, carbon express assault lp3 Looks like strykers, have 75gr muzzy 3 blades, 85gr montec, 125gr muzzy 3 blade, 125gr thunderhead, 145gr old bear 4 blade the one that has the aluminum insert and a plasic that holds the blades on the outside.


----------



## Buckbadger

sethro02 said:


> Jlarcher...the silver and black shuttle t's are identical as far as I could tell


The Black Op's are sharper out of the package than the original ones, other than that identical. I,m thinking the originals will be phased out from stock, where the Black ones might replace them , but not sure, if they'll offer both in the future, as the Black are improved?


----------



## sethro02

Why said 4 packages came today! Hold off on those donations I need to see what all is still coming..thx


----------



## tack09

I agree with this totally. I sent Sethro a PM to get his paypal info. I don't think it is my choice to post his info. with Paypal, that's up to him. However I did gift him $20 for testing expenses. If a few more of us ATers would do the same, I am sure he would appreciate the help. $20 isn't much in my opinion. I am enjoying this thread.


eltaco said:


> Seth, I have no idea what kind of financial burden you are taking on by running these tests. Would you mind throwing out your PayPal info to kick some funds at you?
> 
> I would suggest anyone benefitting from this test throw just a few bucks at Seth, small price to pay for some solid data!


----------



## IndianaPSE

Dude, yer awesome, thanks for this.



ChuckA84 said:


> rage chisel 2 blade = 29
> 
> g5 t3 = 26, 27
> 
> ulmer edge = 43
> 
> steel force sabertooth ss = 33
> 
> steel force phathead = 45 (sethro said 46 but when I added up his scoring I got 45?)
> 
> g5 montec ss = 31
> 
> nap killzone trophy tip = 21
> 
> nap spitfire standard = 22
> 
> trophy ridge steelhead xl = 27
> 
> steelhead standard = 29
> 
> tru fire t1 = 36
> 
> trophy taker shuttle t = 48
> 
> the reign = 33
> 
> rage titanium extreme = 29
> 
> muzzy mx-3 = 39.5
> 
> g5 tekan = 31
> 
> grim whitetail special = 24.5
> 
> nap bloodrunner 2 blade = 26
> 
> ramcat = 42


----------



## jdrawdy

Really appreciate this. Looking forward to see the slick tricks.


----------



## seiowabow

d_money said:


> Ok here are some of the bh's u haven't tested that I have and willing to send u. Carbon express f 15 but it's used if shapened a little it should perform like new, crimson talon hyper spin, carbon express quad pro look like razor tricks, carbon express assault lp3 Looks like strykers, have 75gr muzzy 3 blades, 85gr montec, 125gr muzzy 3 blade, 125gr thunderhead, 145gr old bear 4 blade the one that has the aluminum insert and a plasic that holds the blades on the outside.


I'd love to see the crimson talons! I killed a lot of deer with those.

Sent from my DROID4 using Tapatalk 2


----------



## sethro02

You do not have to donate...but if u want it is

[email protected]

I am not rich at all! I run my own landscaping business and im using my profits from a past job.

Update later after I check mail...also hashing out carnage scoring criteria


----------



## Running

$20 sent. Great work Seth!


----------



## BigGarr

so what is on the way? and going to be tested?


----------



## JLArcher

I just sent him some standard 1-3/8" grim reapers. Should have them by tomorrow afternoon.


----------



## seiowabow

Should be a grizz trick there any day now!

Sent from my DROID4 using Tapatalk 2


----------



## Bugle'm In

sethro02 said:


> can i get my money back on T3's? I'll be like " hey man my broadhead didnt come with any blades?!....j/k


T3's and axis HIT DO NOT GET ALONG.... I have seen this enough to to say they will break more often that they stay together (75% to 25%). Now ifyou were shooting an arrow with a standard insert or a gold tip kinetic with their insert the T3 probably would have faired better. If someone comes to the shop and wants an expandable and they are shooting HIT inserts I stear them towards something with a solid rear ferrule like the Ulmer Edge or Meat Seeker.

I apologize if somebody else already brought this up as I just now reading this thread.


----------



## ozzz

JLArcher said:


> I just sent him some standard 1-3/8" grim reapers. Should have them by tomorrow afternoon.




Sweet, thanks!


----------



## ember

Speed, momentum, KE, arrow type/size, furthest hunting distance for shot, size of game, and Seth's testing results can be taken into account for your next choice of broadhead. It is never is simple as penetration vs. cutting diameter. 

Thanks again Seth.


----------



## nybowhuntermike

id love to see phathead sobs. i know someone said they would send them, not sure if that happened


----------



## Kingfish750

Seth, I have a few 1.75" swhackers if you need one. They have all been shot through the target a few times though. Just let me know. 

You should be getting the slick trick magnum in a day or two.


----------



## sethro02

Ok guys duee the overwhelming popularity to this thread I have to make an announcement later tonight after my sons football practice...it may have to do with no testing until saturday but to your benefit!


----------



## sethro02

Ill will respond to everybody when I get home I promise!


----------



## goathollow

tack09 said:


> I agree with this totally. I sent Sethro a PM to get his paypal info. I don't think it is my choice to post his info. with Paypal, that's up to him. However I did gift him $20 for testing expenses. If a few more of us ATers would do the same, I am sure he would appreciate the help. $20 isn't much in my opinion. I am enjoying this thread.


I'd be happy to donate a few bucks to the cause. Best thread ever on AT. Sethro, you're to be commended for both your hard work and patience with they naysayers. And, thanks to your family for giving up their time with you while you do all this testing.

(Edit: Never mind I see now the Paypal address has already been posted)


----------



## Sivart

thanks for all the effort. Patiently awaiting the standard grim reaper test.....


----------



## DenCMSC

As someone else pointed out, it really isn't a fair test of the T3 heads on Axis arrows without the BAR's. That, or use ANY other arrow that used an external insert. I understand that your trying for "apples to apples, oranges to oranges", so why not add BAR's to all testing? It is suggested by Easton, isn't it?

Enough of my little rant. Great thing you got going here, very informative. PayPal donation on the way, maybe get yourself some BAR's to equal it all out.....


----------



## Bugle'm In

This thread is awesome BTW! Thank you Sethro.

If we can get a list of what broadheads are on their way or to be tested I'd be glad to send you one not on the list that people want to see along with some BARS for testing. Just PM me your address.


----------



## kyhunter5569

Ulmer edge for me this year!!!


----------



## sethro02

Guys I have bars....cant use them on every head because some ferrules are smaller diameter than the bar where it meets which will create drag....ill be more than happy to up the durabilty score on the t3 since its obviously a hot topic but im not changing penetration because everytime time it has stopped in same spot.


----------



## sethro02

Thanks for all money and broadhead donations by the way....this weekend is going to be quite busy in testing but I will talk about that a little later


----------



## sethro02

All lists of heads I have or coming will be sent out to.ight! Thanks for ur patience


----------



## TRAVISTLM

Great thread seth!!!


----------



## xcr 1.5

Awesome thread. How do I subscribe to this?


----------



## Bones816

sethro02 said:


> Ok guys duee the overwhelming popularity to this thread I have to make an announcement later tonight after my sons football practice...it may have to do with no testing until saturday but to your benefit!


Not a problem. I can wait and wish everyone else would be patient. Go back and read the whole thread if you haven't. Sethro02 is getting it done. Have a blast at football! I miss those days.


----------



## Wolfey

sethro02 said:


> Guys I have bars....cant use them on every head because some ferrules are smaller diameter than the bar where it meets which will create drag....ill be more than happy to up the durabilty score on the t3 since its obviously a hot topic but im not changing penetration because everytime time it has stopped in same spot.


The bars don't even help. I've done some testing with the t3s with bars through mdf board and had the same results u r having except the ferrule cracks and is unusable. The ends of my arrows also get chips and cracks eve with the bars


----------



## UTGrad

Original Grim Reaper Razortips would be awesome!


----------



## tiger77

UTGrad said:


> Original Grim Reaper Razortips would be awesome!


I would have to agree with this


----------



## ozzz

tiger77 said:


> I would have to agree with this


Yes, I think they will do well.

I would also like to see the 1 3/4 as well as the 2 inch get another shot.


----------



## meyerske

Were the Ramcats the 2012 model? I didn't see any o-rings. 

Thanks for the effort!


----------



## BRUKSHOT

meyerske said:


> Were the Ramcats the 2012 model? I didn't see any o-rings.
> 
> Thanks for the effort!


I noticed the same thing...and I think Ramcat beefed up their blade this year???


----------



## sethro02

Ramcats had orings....i could not find it afterwards....it was bot in arrow either


----------



## sethro02

Meant to say not in arrow


----------



## meyerske

sethro02 said:


> Ramcats had orings....i could not find it afterwards....it was bot in arrow either


No, the new ones have two. I'm betting you had the pre-2012 model, not that there's anything wrong with that...


----------



## coastiehunter2

when you doing the phat heads?


----------



## sethro02

it just had one oring....already did phatheads....i think i have an sob phathead coming.....im typing you guys a bunch starting now so give me a minute


----------



## sethro02

Ok here is the deal. First and foremost thanks to everyone who has donated money, donated heads, read the thread, looked at the thread, and posted on the thread. Thanks to all of you this may be one of the most popular threads. Some of you may not know but it is a little hectic on this end, emails, posts, testing, building, shooting, etc. So I have not had the time to do the things you guys are asking for ( updated heads i have, i dont have, im getting, etc.) I am by no means complaining here, I am just letting you know whats going on. I think I need to take tonight, and friday night and just cut wood, assemble, make gel, etc. This weekend every single head I have here will be tested ( I will list them last). Their are some other things I need to work on as well. If you do not know alot of you AT'ers are looking at this as a possible "final thought" on what your broadhead of choice is going to be. I think that is awesome! When I first started this thread I was bored with an idea. I had no idea it would be this big. Within all of this I have been luckily introduced to several manufactures of broadheads we use today. After talking to a few of them and gathering my thoughts I realized this is now really important, especially on their end. This is how they make their living by building and selling these heads for us so if I kept doing what i was doing every night I get home I would be afraid that I rush some tests or the quality of the tests might not be there compared to others. This is extremely important that I take my time and treat every head equally I want this as fair as I can. So if i take the next couple of days and get everything built and together that I need then all I have to worry about is giving you guys good test results. Some of these manufactures are looking at this as a possible learning tool to see what your using and what your looking for in a broadhead. I am very glad I can help both sides on that. Sorry for no testing tonight or tomorrow night but it is extremely important that i do not short cut and rush things. Now to the next topic. It has been brought to my attention we need a CARNAGE score. It is simply not fair to crazy big expandables that they get 7 inches of penetration and a huge gash but not get any points for that. Yes everybody wants a passthrough! BUT if you have a huge expandable that does devastating damage on the first portion of the penetration chances are you will have a good outcome and recovery that animal you are after! If a small fixed blade goes through and gets great penetration but not a big wound channel but it's getting the points then that is not fair, if the big mechanical cannot get a passthrough but destroys everything in its path then some sort of points should be awarded. It needs to be treated more equally, in my opinion. So, I am tossing around exactly how to score this and hope to have a decision later tonight. Next topic! I have to get a list together showing all the heads i need, have , getting, I also need to add the carnage scores to ALL the heads already tested, so that is also why i need a little time. Next topic! After I put out all the updated lists, if you do not see a head you want tested PLEASE pm me. It is tough for me to keep up on the thread every minute, although i am doing my best I feel i can keep up on that kinda stuff through Pm's. Next topic! If my inbox is full, please email me at [email protected]. I delete 30 to 75 pm's every morning before work to make enough room but sometimes it isnt enough. So by all means I have no problem with you emailing me, plus it goes straight to my phone. I love how this thread is going guys! It is amazing to see all of the feedback. I just want to thank everyone for all the support on this, I want this thread to be the biggest most informative out there!


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## iwantone2.4

Do watcha gotta do brotha!


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## sethro02

Mechanical Heads to be tested this weekend so far! ( not counting what comes in mail tomorrow)
1. trophy ridge meat seeker 1.5" 3 blade
2. trophy ridge meat seeker 2' 3 blade
3. Nap Bloodrunner 3 blade
4. Gravedigger
5. Redhead Gator


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## sixgunluv

SOooo... when you gonna do the Viper Tricks??:tongue:


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## sethro02

Fixed heads to be tested this weekend so far! ( not counting what comes in mail tomorrow)
1.Muzzy old school 3 blade
2.Silverflame
3. Braxe
4 Nap Thunderhead standard
5. Redhead Blackout ( i think)
6. Wac em' triton


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## coastiehunter2

Any body no what page the phat head review is on?


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## bambikiller

cant wait for the next round, :darkbeer:...taking a few days off is prolly a good idea, dont get stressed its all in fun right


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## sethro02

Phathead was 1st round fixed


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## Griz34

coastiehunter2 said:


> Any body no what page the phat head review is on?


The Phat Head is on page 5.


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## whacker1

Thank you for everything


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## My2Sons

Take all the time you need. Your doing us the favor. 

Thanks. Have a good weekend.


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## 0nepin

The extreme blades I sent should show up tomarrow for the titanium ferrule.the cut will be bigger than the standard extreme and I tuned the oring groove in the blades to open alot faster than the normal second generation rage but will not open it the quiver like the first generation rage.thanks sethro02 for all the time and hard work , don't burn your self out bud ,thank your family for all of on here for giving up some of there time with you.I have named the titanium ferrule with extreme blades the rage RC edition,RC stands for Ray Charles and everybody knows why.


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## sethro02

Haha sweet onepin....thanks guys...we are gonna hit it hard this weeke.d...still working on lists...just chkd paypal..thx for donations you didnt have to but I appreciate...it will go to a good cause!


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## sethro02

Lets keep this on the front page too!


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## BILLDOGGE

Get some rest man and give it hell this weekend. Can't wait.


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## 0nepin

33,359 views Wow!!!!! Sethro02 you are a A.T. Rock star.


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## harveywallhangr

Thanks Seth sorry for the sarcasm earlier. Just a little poor humor. i was quoting Judge Smails.


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## sethro02

no problem man.

onepine sent you a pm


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## d_money

Been thinking about carnage score maybe shoot a fp and that is 1 and anything between it and your largest wound channel being a 5. And also I want to see a fp's score. I'm sure something between should be fairly easy to score. Keep up the good work. If u need any of the heads I posted earlier I can send them.


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## ChuckA84

Threw this together quick for the 4 top broadheads that scored in the 40's so far on the tests...this is to compare cutting diameter:

Steel Force Phathead (2 main blades and 2 small bleeders)
100grain = 1" cutting diameter 125grain = 1 1/8"

Shuttle T's (3 blades)
100 grain = 1 1/8" 125grain = 1 3/16"

Ramcat (3 blades)
100 grain = 1 3/8" 125grain = 1 1/2"

Ulmer Edge (2 blades) = 1 1/2"


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## X finder

Thanks Seth you are doing a great job very informative. Greatest thread on At I've seen.


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## sethro02

Thanks guys...first, correction in this weekend's fixed heads, it is not a Redhead Blackout, IT IS a G5 Striker.
I think the 1 through 5 score would be way to low of points available, I am still configuring that...this is the toughest decision in this whole test!


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## Masheen76

Great thread. 

Very well put together test Seth, thank you for the effort. I'll just throw my 2 cents into the conversation and then step back and enjoy the results and everyones take. 

In regards to the penetration value and carnage value, I have my own thoughts. I feel these big mechanical broadheads have their place right along with the smallest diameter fixed head. As one poster (possibly manufacturer) pointed out already, one hunter may be looking for the best penetrating/durable fixed blade because they feel that is what would make the difference on that Elk. While the other hunter may be looking for that devastating "carnage" for that whitetail hunt coming up this year. Different bow setups producing higher or lower KE also affect hunters choice of broadhead. But I think in the end a well placed shot with most any head will produce positive results.
For myself, I am not afforded a choice between mechanical or fixed (my state prohibits the use of mechanicals). I will say that I am a fan of penatration/passthroughs versus overall damage area that a broadhead creates. I like the thought of 2 sources of blood to exit the body and therefore track should it come to that. But again, this is simply my opinions and I have nothing factual that would prove penetration trumps overall "carnage". It truly comes down to a personal choice.

I think this test is great in the regard that it shows the durability of the broadheads. To me, if a broadhead cannot stay together it's not doing what it was meant to 100% of the time.

Thanks again Seth for all the hard work you've invested. Tell your family thanks for letting all of us ATers occupy your time so much during this.


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## ChuckA84

sethro02 said:


> Thanks guys...first, correction in this weekend's fixed heads, it is not a Redhead Blackout, IT IS a G5 Striker.
> I think the 1 through 5 score would be way to low of points available, I am still configuring that...this is the toughest decision in this whole test!


The only idea I have is to measure every 1/16th inch of cutting surface of each blade (not measuring blade from front to back, but rather measuring from farthest point out on the blade to the edge of the broadhead or shaft) and giving 1 point for every 1/16th inch of cutting surface of each broadhead. That is the only fair way that I can think of to the broadheads with more than 2 cutting surfaces.


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## sethro02

thanks guys for your opinion, i do value them... i don't exactly want to say what im thinking yet because i'll get flooded with pm's! j/k..


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## screaminbulls1

Enjoy some "me time Seth" you deserve it. Besides, I'm sure the wife and kids would like to see their husband and dad.


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## BASSFAN07

I think you could do carnage value based on cutting diameter multiplied by inches of penetration multiplied by factor of full cut with fully open or fixed head factor of 1. 

Example: 
Ulmer edge
Cutting diameter 1.5" multiplied by
Penetration 28" multiplied by 
% of deployment 1
Carnage factor: 42"


Shuttle T
Cutting diameter 1.125" x
Penetration 26" x 
% of deployment 1
Carnage factor: 29.25"

Ramcat
Cutting diameter 1.375" x
Penetration 20" x
% of deployment .90 (due to bent blades)
Carnage factor: 24.75"


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## goathollow

ChuckA84 said:


> The only idea I have is to measure every 1/16th inch of cutting surface of each blade (not measuring blade from front to back, but rather measuring from farthest point out on the blade to the edge of the broadhead or shaft) and giving 1 point for every 1/16th inch of cutting surface of each broadhead. That is the only fair way that I can think of to the broadheads with more than 2 cutting surfaces.


Seems to me that "carnage" has to be a function of both the size of the wound channel and penetration. That is, would a 2 in broadhead that penetrates 5 inches not be equal to a 1 inch broadhead that penetrates 10 inches? However, a multiple of the two probably wouldn't be appropriate either since once the broadhead exits the animal's body the carnage ceases. Maybe a multiple of the two to some maximum number???


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## brandon170

Wow that was alot of pages to read. Great job, looking foward to the next results.


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## sethro02

bass fan you are close to what im gonna do...thanks guys. 

Here is an updated list so far going through my inbox of what IM GETTING:
1. St Grizztrick
2. Walmart CX model broaheads
3. magnus snuffer SS
4. Exodus
5. Epek


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## sethro02

goat hollow you just made my brain hurt harder!!!!!


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## BigGarr

thanks for the hard work did some one say they were sending an f15?


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## sethro02

i havent found it so far in the inbox


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## matt3

Great thread. Don't forget that just because a mechanical starts at 2.5" but the blades bend to 1.75" that the full carnage value is not seen. A 4 blade had at 1.5 and a 3 blade head at 1.5 might cut same with but the 4 blade does more damage with the extra cutting surface/blade.

Just some thoughts
Keep up the great work
Matt


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## sethro02

bassfan your idea is very good i think but im going with something a little more easy and no so much "my opinion" on percent of deployment


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## jumpalot

Will you give any consideration to 2 blade versus 3 blade for the carnage score? A 1 1/2" two blade does not have the cutting surface of a 1 1/2" three blade broadhead.


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## BASSFAN07

sethro02 said:


> bassfan your idea is very good i think but im going with something a little more easy and no so much "my opinion" on percent of deployment


Wouldn't really be your opinion, but rather the percentage of the original cutting diameter after test. I know something you shot, maybe titanium turkey rage, cutting diameter decreased 3/8 or more after test. % value would only change from 100% in the event of decreased cutting diameter from original value. 
Whatever you come up with, I know will be fair and reflect data accurately. Keep up the good work. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## sethro02

ok i gotcha


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## ChuckA84

jumpalot said:


> Will you give any consideration to 2 blade versus 3 blade for the carnage score? A 1 1/2" two blade does not have the cutting surface of a 1 1/2" three blade broadhead.


This is exactly what I was trying to say. Plus I'm not quite sure how the cutting diameter of the mechanical's are measured...are they measured when the blades are completely perpendicular to the shaft (which they are only at for like a millisecond upon entry) or are they measured with the blades pushed all the way back as they would be for pretty much the whole way through the animal?


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## UTGrad

Grim Reaper Razortips 1 3/8" cut PLEASE!!


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## sethro02

i'll post it up in the morning,,,,need to sleep on it!


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## UTGrad

sethro02 said:


> i'll post it up in the morning,,,,need to sleep on it!


Awesome!!!


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## BOW BUM

The addition of a carnage score would introduce a variable that is highly subjective. All the variables you are grading the heads on now are not subjective, and are directly related to the performance of the head on a fixed medium.

Regards,

B


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## completepassthru

ozzz said:


> Huge bummer on the WTS! I want details.
> 
> 
> 
> Maybe try re sizing the pics, I have had that problem on thi site.


I can tell you one thing for sure. The GR Whitetail Special is brutal on an animal. I do not know all the details about this test but results on a deer is where the rubber meets the road. 

Thanks much for you effort and time to do this test my friend.


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## 0nepin

BOW BUM said:


> The addition of a carnage score would introduce a variable that is highly subjective. All the variables you are grading the heads on now are not subjective, and are directly related to the performance of the head on a fixed medium.
> 
> Regards,
> All scores are directly related to there performance on a fixed medium.the carnage score is going show the actual work the broadhead did on the medium.
> I think sethro02 has alot of ideas to go over, be patient .


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## Griz34

I say let Seth do whatever he wants to do with the test. As long as we have the data anyone who has gone through 6th grade made can come up with their own "carnage factor after all the data has been posted.


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## BearArcher1980

Seth, Thank you aain fr all your hard work and money for our entertainment and info...Great job you are doin!!!


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## Typical171

griz34 said:


> i say let seth do whatever he wants to do with the test. As long as we have the data anyone who has gone through 6th grade made can come up with their own "carnage factor after all the data has been posted.


x2!


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## Griz34

I was just sitting here thinking...does anyone have a Atom broadhead they could send in for testing? If not maybe I could buy some and send one in but that would probably take a little over a week to do. I know the owner used to be on here sticking up for his heads against a lot of bashing. It would be interesting to see how they perform.


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## pinski79

Griz34 said:


> I was just sitting here thinking...does anyone have a Atom broadhead they could send in for testing? If not maybe I could buy some and send one in but that would probably take a little over a week to do. I know the owner used to be on here sticking up for his heads against a lot of bashing. It would be interesting to see how they perform.


do it


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## qmb9015

Griz34 said:


> I was just sitting here thinking...does anyone have a Atom broadhead they could send in for testing? If not maybe I could buy some and send one in but that would probably take a little over a week to do. I know the owner used to be on here sticking up for his heads against a lot of bashing. It would be interesting to see how they perform.


 i watched a video on youtube of one being shot at a setup similar to seth's and it completely shattered


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## olemossyhorns

BASSFAN07 said:


> I think you could do carnage value based on cutting diameter multiplied by inches of penetration multiplied by factor of full cut with fully open or fixed head factor of 1.
> 
> Example:
> Ulmer edge
> Cutting diameter 1.5" multiplied by
> Penetration 28" multiplied by
> % of deployment 1
> Carnage factor: 42"
> 
> 
> Shuttle T
> Cutting diameter 1.125" x
> Penetration 26" x
> % of deployment 1
> Carnage factor: 29.25"
> 
> Ramcat
> Cutting diameter 1.375" x
> Penetration 20" x
> % of deployment .90 (due to bent blades)
> Carnage factor: 24.75"
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I like this idea.:thumbs_up


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## tiger77

completepassthru said:


> I can tell you one thing for sure. The GR Whitetail Special is brutal on an animal. I do not know all the details about this test but results on a deer is where the rubber meets the road.
> 
> Thanks much for you effort and time to do this test my friend.


Maybe the original grim reaper razor tip white tail special with the bleeder blades would do better than the Mathews edition


----------



## goathollow

goathollow said:


> Seems to me that "carnage" has to be a function of both the size of the wound channel and penetration. That is, would a 2 in broadhead that penetrates 5 inches not be equal to a 1 inch broadhead that penetrates 10 inches? However, a multiple of the two probably wouldn't be appropriate either since once the broadhead exits the animal's body the carnage ceases. Maybe a multiple of the two to some maximum number???


Sorry if that was confusing. Let me give an example: BH X has a cutting surface of 2" and 20 " of penetration thru the test medium. But lets say a whitetail is approx 15" thick. If you discount any penetration score beyond 15" (the broadheads work has maxed out once it exits the animal) then the carnage score equals 30. 2 x 15=30

Penetration is important in its own right. But for carnage penetrstion is mitigated because the BH stops doing damage once it exits the animal. Conversely, if the 2" BH only penetrates 10" then its score is only 20. 

Just my pea brain thinking about a rather complex evaluation. Seth, I'm sure what ever you come up with will be fair and representative.


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## Griz34

qmb9015 said:


> i watched a video on youtube of one being shot at a setup similar to seth's and it completely shattered


That's kind of what I was afraid of, and I don't think I'd really want to use one for hunting anyway unless it performed flawlessly in the test.


----------



## qmb9015

Griz34 said:


> That's kind of what I was afraid of, and I don't think I'd really want to use one for hunting anyway unless it performed flawlessly in the test.


im the same way thats why i sent him the NAP braxe its not really like anything out there and every video i saw on youtube they performed really well but i figured i would send him one and see how they do compared to popular/common ones


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## xcr 1.5

BASSFAN07 said:


> I think you could do carnage value based on cutting diameter multiplied by inches of penetration multiplied by factor of full cut with fully open or fixed head factor of 1.
> 
> Example:
> Ulmer edge
> Cutting diameter 1.5" multiplied by
> Penetration 28" multiplied by
> % of deployment 1
> Carnage factor: 42"
> 
> 
> Shuttle T
> Cutting diameter 1.125" x
> Penetration 26" x
> % of deployment 1
> Carnage factor: 29.25"
> 
> Ramcat
> Cutting diameter 1.375" x
> Penetration 20" x
> % of deployment .90 (due to bent blades)
> Carnage factor: 24.75"
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


This except with a "total blade cut" instead of diameter. A 1" 3 blade head will have a total cut of 1 and a half inches.


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## basnbuks

Shewww! Just read all 44 pages while at work, Sethro ur the man, my hats off to you, for your time, efforts and money, im donating 1 hr of my pay. Ive been a rage shooter for several years now and have been toying the idea of a change, this thread is just what i needed. Thanks again and keep up the good work.


Sent across the ocean in a beer bottle


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## suterst

I like bassfano7 idea also, Just a ? Are you going to pull the ramcat back out so the blades rotate open to 1 3/4 in. That would help the carnage factor


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## 0nepin

jumpalot said:


> Will you give any consideration to 2 blade versus 3 blade for the carnage score? A 1 1/2" two blade does not have the cutting surface of a 1 1/2" three blade broadhead.


That would also mean with a 2 blades like a rage you also have two add in the cut on contact tip.I would use the industry standard way of measuring cutting diameter to keep this simple ,next thing you read is a 1 1/2" 3 blade does not have the cutting suface as a 1 1/2" 4 blade .If you added in the coc tip on a rage extreme you would be close to 2.8" cutting surface,I don't know about sethroO2 but this would make this way to confusing for my pea brain with so many broadheads involved.Just keep it simple .


----------



## CAT Diesel

All I can say is WOOW! I just joined the other day, but this is the type of information that I was looking for. I was going today to buy some T3's, but after reading this, I will wait for the final results. Thank you Seth and all that are helping with this test. For the BH manufacturers, a big Thank You for supporting Seth. 

From one Hoosier to another, Great Job!


----------



## sethro02

Ok after several conversations here is what I am thinking on an extra Carnage score...if this does not go over well i'll have to think of something else.

How I will be scoring:
Step 1. entry hole size ( 2blade 2" cut, if works properly will be 2 points)

Step 2. The actual size of the cut through ballistics gel ( 2 blade 2" cut worked perfectly so it would be 2 points since its cut was 2 ")

Step 3. Total Penetration through gel ( maximum of 8 points since gel is 8" thick)

Step 4. Exit Hole size ( 2 blade 2" that works right will have a 2" exit hole giving it 2 points)

So it would look like this: Cut size through gel X penetration + entry + exit = ?

so for this example it would be: 2 X 8 +2 + 2= 20

If this DOES NOT go over well then I will continue with what i have been doing and you can let the pics of entry sizes and etc. do the talking and help you decide. Thanks


----------



## sethro02

Once again thanks for all the donations.


----------



## Boomerang

Seth,
VPA's on the way.

Thanks a bunch!


----------



## sethro02

Thx man!


----------



## sethro02

Surprised nobody has chimed in about scoring yet


----------



## TauntoHawk

so max penetration will be 8in regarless of whether the arrow is lodged in the back stop medium or if it blows clean through. or is this just the carnage score to go with the original penetration score?


----------



## Jared_LA

sethro02 said:


> Surprised nobody has chimed in about scoring yet


In step 1, how would you score for example a magnum ST with 4 blade 1-1/8" cut? I'm thinking 2-1/4", theoretically if the blades cut as planned. BTW, been following this thread since the beginning, and never posted, but excellent work and make sure to hug the momma and babies!


----------



## Norwegian Woods

Looking forward to the weekend testing 

I am not concerned about the carnage scoring as that is something I think I can conclude with myself and decide what broad head will be the best for my use 
You are already testing what I am interested in. Toughness and penetration. 

Thank you very much for doing this for us!


----------



## BASSFAN07

Seth, I think you can come up with carnage score in any way you want and as long as all the recorded data is listed or each head in the thread, we can use your data accordingly to make our own decision. Thanks again or your efforts. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## kyhunter5569

What was the number two scoring mechanical head? Number one was the Ulmer correct


----------



## jumpalot

0nepin said:


> That would also mean with a 2 blades like a rage you also have two add in the cut on contact tip.I would use the industry standard way of measuring cutting diameter to keep this simple ,next thing you read is a 1 1/2" 3 blade does not have the cutting suface as a 1 1/2" 4 blade .If you added in the coc tip on a rage extreme you would be close to 2.8" cutting surface,I don't know about sethroO2 but this would make this way to confusing for my pea brain with so many broadheads involved.Just keep it simple .


I agree, I don't want this to get too complicated. I'm just thinking that a three blade head causes more damage due to cutting on three different planes versus just one. I think that's why most two blade heads have a larger cutting diameter to make up for this. Heck, I'm not too sure about anything at this point. I'm changing my entire hunting setup and need to choose new broadheads,that's why I'm following this so closely.
seththro02, score however you want to. It will be up to us to make a decision on what head we will personally shoot. Thanks for all your effort on this.


----------



## sethro02

I have to base it on the contraption I built for this testingso if it passes through gour carnage points wont be more because it should not matter after it is through the animal or in this case the mediums im shooting through


----------



## sethro02

Let me double check on the 2nd best mechanical...besides the raging ulmer


----------



## sethro02

Yes if I do this then each fixed blade entrance etc. will be measured on what it actually cut...so if its a 4 blade I will measure each cut...this is still up in the air...a part of me just wants to keep going like I was but I want big expandables to get their recognition


----------



## Timber Troll

kyhunter5569 said:


> What was the number two scoring mechanical head? Number one was the Ulmer correct


I haven't went back through the whole thread to double check, but I think the mechs scored: 
Ulmer Total: 43
Steelhead total: 29
Rage 2 bld: 29
Steelhead XL 27
T3 26
Several more on down the line. May have missed a few.


----------



## Fortyneck

sethro02 said:


> Surprised nobody has chimed in about scoring yet





Norwegian Woods said:


> Looking forward to the weekend testing
> 
> I am not concerned about the carnage scoring as that is something I think I can conclude with myself and decide what broad head will be the best for my use
> You are already testing what I am interested in. Toughness and penetration.
> 
> Thank you very much for doing this for us!


I agree with Noregian Woods.

IMO the new system seems a little contrived, I think the pictures tell the whole story of penetration along with the aftermath of the failures, as long as they are direct hits 

on the gel. One thing you can do is at the final tally, list broadheads in similar groups based on cut diameter, number of blades, fixed or mech.


----------



## UTGrad

How about you leave the test how it is currently. It's a great test and no need to complicate it with a "carnage" score.


----------



## Fortyneck

UTGrad did you get my Pm?


----------



## 0nepin

sethro02 said:


> Surprised nobody has chimed in about scoring yet


I think you have it the right .


----------



## 0nepin

UTGrad said:


> How about you leave the test how it is currently. It's a great test and no need to complicate it with a "carnage" score.


that would not be fair to the broadhead that are leaving massive wound channels.


----------



## goathollow

BASSFAN07 said:


> Seth, I think you can come up with carnage score in any way you want and as long as all the recorded data is listed or each head in the thread, we can use your data accordingly to make our own decision. Thanks again or your efforts.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I agree with Bassfan07. Your formula works as well as any other and probably better than most. I didn't think about measuring the actual cut in the gelatin as you've suggested...that makes it real not theoretical...IMO. Short of hiring MIT to do a controlled study on actual animal carcasses there will be some room for debate (even then someone on AT would find something to fuss about . What you are doing is nothing short of amazing. 36,000 plus views WOW!!


----------



## 0nepin

Jared_LA said:


> In step 1, how would you score for example a magnum ST with 4 blade 1-1/8" cut? I'm thinking 2-1/4", theoretically if the blades cut as planned. BTW, been following this thread since the beginning, and never posted, but excellent work and make sure to hug the momma and babies!


It the manufacture rates at 1 1/8" that should be the max score or thing will get overly complicated . Think the big mech that have coc tip,would want score the rage titanium that in the test a 3" on entry because it has a 2.5" cut + .5" coc tip?I don't .If I was sethro02 I would you the formula that he posted and let everybody chose if the want a chunk or a sliver.


----------



## sethro02

Onepin brought this formula to my attention last night after a couple of messages so he should get credit for that...in my opinion I think its the simplest yet efficient way to do it otherwise each test will take forever...i initially wanted to use the advertised cutting diameter and leave it at that...you guys are more than capable of knowing how much damage was inflicted


----------



## swampboss

sethro02 said:


> Yes if I do this then each fixed blade entrance etc. will be measured on what it actually cut...so if its a 4 blade I will measure each cut...this is still up in the air...a part of me just wants to keep going like I was but I want big expandables to get their recognition


 Yes I agree ^^ The ONLY way for this to be fair to each BH is for you to measure and factor the carnage by measuring the amount actually each blade has cut . Good work so far , my hat is off to your for your work so far , but IMO if you don't measure it this way this thread and your efforts thus far will go down in flames and be seen as biased leaning toward mech heads.
anyone else agree ?


----------



## sethro02

Im taking all u guys opinions into consideration


----------



## Buckbadger

sethro02 said:


> i initially wanted to use the advertised cutting diameter and leave it at that...you guys are more than capable of knowing how much damage was inflicted


I agree I'm more intrested in durability and penetration, I could care less about the carnage with an arrow that blows through, where I,m aiming. To me carnage is only important if your not getting full penetration? Whereas a 2 broadheads that both have 6 in of pentration but one is a 2in. cut and the other a 3in., obviously the 3in. has more carnage factor. But as you stated with the adertised cut with your penetration results, one can assume the carnage if needed?


----------



## Fortyneck

0nepin said:


> It the manufacture rates at 1 1/8" that should be the max score or thing will get overly complicated . Think the big mech that have coc tip,would want score the rage titanium that in the test a 3" on entry because it has a 2.5" cut + .5" coc tip?I don't .If I was sethro02 I would you the formula that he posted and let everybody chose if the want a chunk or a sliver.


I you don't measure all the cutting surfaces of all broadheads what is the sense in adding the carnage factors? How would it complicate things any more?


----------



## Typical171

I for one think the testing your doing is a great way of showing a lot of data. Everyone is different and is looking for something in particular with broadhead performance. Even though this media is not a real animal (every animal body makeup is even different, i.e. whitetail deer, ferrule hog, elk, all the different African game) it still is a great test of resistance. You have to be the one to make the call on whether or not a particular broadhead performed they way it would satisfy YOUR particular needs. Take the data that seth has spent doing here unselfishly and come up with your own scoring system and post them back here for all to see. Broadheads are designed to do different things when penetrating and animal. Example a Rage 2blade 2in is designed for massive "TISSUE" damage causing rapid blood lost, on the other hand a SlickTrick Standard is mainly designed for bone breaking deep penetration. Therefor they really cannot be compared to each other on just one scale and be an accurate test for both. So take the data here and be your own educated consumer when its time to pick a broadhead.


----------



## Typical171

Oh, and you doing a great job Seth the way your currently doing it!


----------



## Fortyneck

Typical171 said:


> ...Example a Rage 2blade 2in is designed for massive "TISSUE" damage causing rapid blood lost, on the other hand a SlickTrick Standard is mainly designed for bone breaking deep penetration. Therefor they really cannot be compared to each other on just one scale and be an accurate test for both. So take the data here and be your own educated consumer when its time to pick a broadhead.


They can't be compared because one is a Mech, and one is fixed but,

They both cut 2" of "TISSUE" if they function properly.


----------



## Typical171

Fortyneck said:


> They can't be compared because one is a Mech, and one is fixed but,
> 
> They both cut 2" of "TISSUE" if they function properly.


Yep, that is spot on, but my point was a broadhead that has a bigger cut radius from the center of the shaft will have a better chance of encountering a vital organ or artery (if it can penetrate to it!) then one with a smaller radius from the center therefor they are designed for two different purposes. For the record I use SlickTricks.


----------



## evasiveone

If carnage is used cutting surface should be used and not just cutting diameter. Otherwise the 3 and 4 blade heads will be penalized even though they are doing damage in dual planes and not just one. Those extra blades cause "carnage" and should be accounted for.


----------



## higdeezy45b

First of all I don't post on here much but I read a great deal. With that being said...

Sethro, you are doing an amazing job! I know with out a doubt that your hard work and effort is highly appreciated and will influence a lot of ATers choice in BH. I bet the BH section of the Classifieds is getting a lot more attention!


----------



## 0nepin

I just checked out gravedigger broadheads on there sight and they look insane.


----------



## jumpalot

evasiveone said:


> If carnage is used cutting surface should be used and not just cutting diameter. Otherwise the 3 and 4 blade heads will be penalized even though they are doing damage in dual planes and not just one. Those extra blades cause "carnage" and should be accounted for.


+1
That's what I was trying to say earlier.


----------



## sethro02

Ok guys no more debating on this please I have it figured out...posting in a few


----------



## 0nepin

Typical171 said:


> Yep, that is spot on, but my point was a broadhead that has a bigger cut radius from the center of the shaft will have a better chance of encountering a vital organ or artery (if it can penetrate to it!) then one with a smaller radius from the center therefor they are designed for two different purposes. For the record I use SlickTricks.


yep


----------



## chirohunter73

0nepin said:


> I just checked out gravedigger broadheads on there sight and they look insane.


Yes they do, I have had my eye on them for a while just wanted to see how they perform in a test like this!!!


----------



## sethro02

Ok ill first start by saying we all have different damage and carnage we are looking for...i want this to stay unbiased as possible so im going a different direction...the scoring I came up with in the beginning is too skewed so im changing the penetration scoring only.we all know these heads are lethal so ill let you be the judge on how lethal with my data

Penetration scoring...if your broadhead goes through the last section of medium....10 pts

If the arrow fletchings are through the first medium that is 1 bonus point

If broadhead does not go through first medium that is a zero

If bh goes through 1st medium but not second then it will be measured frm where it stopped back to 1st mediim...

The contraption is 10" all together...thats where 10 pts came from...

Hang on still typing


----------



## sethro02

When I repost the heads already shot and the new ones I will tell you what the cutting surface is! Then you can look at the pics and compare the numbers for your personal carnage factor.


This is important here...pay attention to dependability score! If it is a 5 then it was open all the way.if it is a zero it did not open! Then look at gel pic to see if it was open.

I will make notes along the way reminding u if it opened or when it opened


----------



## sethro02

Bottom line penetration value was too high


----------



## 0nepin

Sounds good sethro02.


----------



## sethro02

Thx to everyone chiming in but I thnk there too many variables for the earlier topic


----------



## sethro02

Btw yes that gravedigger looks like a killer!


----------



## GarrickTX

It does but I'm curious to see how durable it is. The test will be the "show all" if you will.

Btw sethro02 keep up the good work, it is much appreciated.


----------



## 0nepin

Sethro02 if the extreme blades show up today that I modified to fit the titanium ferrule,and if you have time intsall them in the ulmer ferrule and post a pic with measurements.I just can't wait to see what the cut is Going to be,but if you don't have time I completely understand.thank again .


----------



## Hang'em High

sethro02 said:


> Btw yes that gravedigger looks like a killer!


I've been watching the Grave Digger thread in the Broadhead section with great anticipation....No Limit Archery is supposed to soon be releasing a chisel-tipped version that does look like a killer. BTW Sethro...enjoyed your testing and commentary so far...thanks.


----------



## sethro02

Onepin I sure will...glad to see some grave digger interest...lots of heads to go!


----------



## GarrickTX

So when can we expect the next test?


----------



## 0nepin

Hang'em High said:


> I've been watching the Grave Digger thread in the Broadhead section with great anticipation....No Limit Archery is supposed to soon be releasing a chisel-tipped version that does look like a killer. BTW Sethro...enjoyed your testing and commentary so far...thanks.


I will buy some of these when they release them and see if I can convert them to rear deploring.and see if i can get them to fly well at over 340fps.they look like they will be the perfect hog killer.And I bowhunt hogs all year long so I'm very interested.


----------



## sethro02

Next test is saturday...their will be testing all weekend...also newly updated scor%ng!


----------



## E.J.

The prototype gravediggers I was using last year really did the job nicely. I even spined two deer and the heads were used again. Im looking forward to using the final version this year and can't wait for the chisel tip. It really is the perfect bh in my opinion. Great work sethro and I look forward to seeing more results.


----------



## manboy

Seth,

i am not sure if you have them to test, but i can send you a swhacker 125..........slayer 100grain 2 blade, ....and a slayer 125grain 3 blade.....these slayers are the original INverters....

p.m. if you want them.....


----------



## jdrawdy

Looking forward to this weekend.


----------



## sethro02

Mail call! these heads are added to this weekend
Exodus!
Magnus snuffer ss
Titanium extreme!


----------



## GarrickTX

sethro02 said:


> Mail call! these heads are added to this weekend
> Exodus!
> Magnus snuffer ss
> Titanium extreme!


Which Exodus? The full blade, or swept?


----------



## savage 14

a few years ago a friend and i were shooting broad heads in to sand. when we had an idea to see if they would penetrate a 55 gal sreel drum. we were shooting nap 125 and rocky premiers 125. the nap thunder head went thru the drum one side of course and remained intact.the rocky went thru but lost one bladeand bent the other two.so for a real test need to find out how thick deer shoulder is,at the thickest. and go from there.all of the heads will kill.remeber it's shot placement.good luck,looking foreward for results.


----------



## GarrickTX

To whom ever it was posting that they wanted to see the F-15; In my experience the F-15 is a very accurate BH and gets great penatration, BUT the blood trails are less than desirable. A few of my buddies have run into this with the F-15 as well. It is one mean looking BH but I would rather sacrafice looks for something that will give me a trail to follow, just my prefference.


----------



## sethro02

I yhink its full version..im working on posting a pic of this weekends lineup


----------



## basnbuks

Score or no score ur actual results gives us enuff info to determine if a particular head lives up to what our expectation either or or not what we expect. Like some1 else noted, its up to the individual to determine what they expect out of a head, the #1 rule for me is flight, if it dont hit were im aiming then what good is it. I know the bows tune plays an important role here. 


Sent across the ocean in a beer bottle


----------



## okiehunt

I like the idea of the extra points for a passthrough to me two holes in an animal is very important and I would prefer the arrow not be in there plugging up the holes either. And by the way I appreciate all the work you are putting in to this as I am sure everyone else is also. Nice to see a test done for all these heads where the tester has no bias and nothing to gain from a particular head doing good or bad.


----------



## sethro02

i appreciate it guys, glad i could earn your trust in this....posting up some pics for this weekend


----------



## sethro02

This weekend's Fixed Broadheads to be tested. no particular order


----------



## sethro02

This weekend's Mechanical Broadheads to be tested. no particular order. PLEASE NOTE the grave digger is a fixed/mechanical combination!


----------



## eltaco

Sweeeet!!! Looks like my Muzzy and Silverflame showed up!


----------



## sethro02

yep!

ramcats still for sale $25 tyd
nap bloodrunner 2 blade for sale $25tyd
killzones(somebody buy these!!!) $20 tyd


----------



## 0nepin

WOW!!! that rage titanium extreme looks massive.I would like your opinion on how the blades fit in the ferrule and how they function compared to the original.they should work good with my setup,509gr at 331fps =123.7 ke with 0.747 mo.


----------



## BILLDOGGE

Going to be an action packed weekend from the looks of it!


----------



## sethro02

It does! Wrkng on getting pic of raging ulmer extreme


----------



## TauntoHawk

Im rooting for those Exodus heads this weekend!!!!


----------



## Michael Myers

sethro02 said:


> This weekend's Fixed Broadheads to be tested. no particular order
> View attachment 1410158


What head is 4th to the Left?Black and Silver head?


----------



## 0nepin

sethro02 said:


> It does! Wrkng on getting pic of raging ulmer extreme


hehe this is going to be insane!!!!!!!!


----------



## blind squirrel

Best thread ever. Keep up the good work Seth. Gentlemen place your bets! Out of the mechs scheduled for saturday... my money is on the gator.


----------



## 0nepin

GrizzlyMan1980 said:


> What head is 4th to the Left?Black and Silver head?


sliver flame


----------



## chaded

GrizzlyMan1980 said:


> What head is 4th to the Left?Black and Silver head?


German Kinetic.


----------



## 0nepin

blind squirrel said:


> Best thread ever. Keep up the good work Seth. Gentlemen place your bets! Out of the mechs scheduled for saturday... my money is on the gator.


out of those with his setup i will take the gravedigger and i think he might brake the blades on the gator and bend the blades on the rage.


----------



## andyhunter3

This test is awesome, I for one am a very irregular ATer and come here just for the knowledge some of you guys have gained through years of experience. Thank you for doing all of this testing and I really cannot wait for the outcome...I do have a question, are you planning to test on of the regular rage 100g 2 blade? I see one in the pic, unsure if that is the titanium or regular rage? Thanks again for all of this!!!!


----------



## sethro02

i tested the rage chisel earlier....i will not go out and buy the older rages...i'll take a donation head...but in my opinion it would score close to the rage chisel.


----------



## Bobmuley

sethro02 said:


> Surprised nobody has chimed in about scoring yet


(number of blades) x (0.5) x (cutting diameter) x (depth of cut)

I only add this because it's not a subjective number, but an actual value of how much "stuff" was cut.


----------



## qmb9015

i think every mech. head will bend or break except the gravedigger


----------



## sethro02

by the way, rage titanium is 3.5" cutting surface!


----------



## andyhunter3

hmm, your planning to do your testing saturday and I am in PA?? I dont know how soon you would get it but I do believe I can probably round one up


----------



## sethro02

bobmuley i agree. but i changed how we are doing things do to too many people having different opinions on what they consider damage.


----------



## sethro02

andyhunter3, which head you talking about?


----------



## 0nepin

The rage in the pic is a fraken rage ,it a rage titanium with extreme blades machined to fit .the cut is right at a lot haha.I came up with this for my high ke setup.there are other super bad arce franken heads out there like the chisel extreme that timmyz7 came up with or the raging ulmer tha sethro came up with.


----------



## kyhunter5569

Timber Troll said:


> I haven't went back through the whole thread to double check, but I think the mechs scored:
> Ulmer Total: 43
> Steelhead total: 29
> Rage 2 bld: 29
> Steelhead XL 27
> T3 26
> Several more on down the line. May have missed a few.


Thanks man!


----------



## andyhunter3

I was talking about the regular 2 blade rages? Not the titanium nor the new chisel tips....the regular 2 blade rages? Sorry for my lack of knowledge on the subject...


----------



## Michael Myers

Those German Kinetics look Awesome,I Checked there Website,Hard to Beat German Steel,If they get anywhere near the Score of the Steelforce i might have to look into them,Do you have to order them from Germany?


----------



## 0nepin

sethro02 said:


> by the way, rage titanium is 3.5" cutting surface!


331 fps 509gr arrow and a 3.5"cutting surface,poor little Florida deer.


----------



## sethro02

No clue grizzman,,,it was a donation head....on the regular 2 blade rages let me see what i can do....REMEMBER THERE IS NEW PENETRATION SCORING THAT I AM UPDATING!!! this test is going to be alot closer after i configure the new scores!!!!


----------



## sethro02

Guys I need a little help please,,,i sold the shuttle t's, spitfire standards, and montec's....I need the cutting surface of them! If someone could please measure these if you have them...if not it's ok i'll figure something out!


----------



## RustyUlmer

sethro02 said:


> Guys I need a little help please,,,i sold the shuttle t's, spitfire standards, and montec's....I need the cutting surface of them! If someone could please measure these if you have them...if not it's ok i'll figure something out!


Seth,
I asked Trophy taker to send you a pack of every broadhead they make so you should get them on Tuesday. You can measure those Shuttle Ts if you still need those figures.


----------



## sethro02

Rusty, 
Thanks so much, hope you had a good vacation!


----------



## Michael Myers

sethro02 said:


> No clue grizzman,,,it was a donation head....on the regular 2 blade rages let me see what i can do....REMEMBER THERE IS NEW PENETRATION SCORING THAT I AM UPDATING!!! this test is going to be alot closer after i configure the new scores!!!!


Do you need 2 Blade Rage?I Can send 1 if you do.Grizz


----------



## sethro02

Yes if you dont mind...they are still popular eventhough the new ones that are out. do i owe you for anyting


----------



## Michael Myers

sethro02 said:


> Yes if you dont mind...they are still popular eventhough the new ones that are out. do i owe you for anyting


No man,Pm me your addy and i will mail it,Our postal service does not work Weekends,So it will be monday,Not sure how long it will take but i will send it out,I have a few other head,Kicking around if i can find them at my camp this weekend i will ship too,I Think 1 is a Slick Trick mag or Normal and the others im not sure.Grizz


----------



## andyhunter3

Thank you for adding the original rages in your mix and again, thank you for all of your time and dedication for this!!


----------



## kyhunter5569

RustyUlmer said:


> Seth,
> I asked Trophy taker to send you a pack of every broadhead they make so you should get them on Tuesday. You can measure those Shuttle Ts if you still need those figures.


You sir have made me a fan of trophy taker I don't see any other broadhead company showing any other interest in this thread shows how confident you are in your product


----------



## Michael Myers

Just found this Relic in a Old Archery Container in my Basement...Is this a Zwickey?Would you like me to send it for Testing as well?Grizz


----------



## Wildhunter19

Wow I have to say that it is getting good. And Seth i will have to say that your testing methods are great. I like the idea of changing the penetration. Thanks for the information that you are giving out. Thank your wife and kids as well for letting you do this for all of us. 

Wildhunter


----------



## nolimitarchery

kyhunter5569 said:


> You sir have made me a fan of trophy taker I don't see any other broadhead company showing any other interest in this thread shows how confident you are in your product


There have been at least 4 or 5 manufacturers that have sent Seth broadheads, just to let you know.


----------



## Bugle'm In

GrizzlyMan1980 said:


> Just found this Relic in a Old Archery Container in my Basement...Is this a Zwickey?Would you like me to send it for Testing as well?Grizz


That's an old satelite 140 I think... the blades will break and and the ferrule will probably bend too. I wouldn't bother unless Seth wants to give it a go.


----------



## Michael Myers

nolimitarchery said:


> There have been at least 4 or 5 manufacturers that have sent Seth broadheads, just to let you know.


Your Grave diggers are Very interesting,Do i have to order them direct from you?Grizz


----------



## Michael Myers

Bugle'm In said:


> That's an old satelite 140 I think... the blades will break and and the ferrule will probably bend too. I wouldn't bother unless Seth wants to give it a go.


Lol,Seems Like your right,Pretty Sharp but flimsy,Might be a Good Partridge head for me.Was in my dads 15 Yr old Rusted out Archery equipment,Been there for 15 Years,lol.Grizz


----------



## 0nepin

nolimitarchery said:


> There have been at least 4 or 5 manufacturers that have sent Seth broadheads, just to let you know.


I'm am really liking the gravediggers and I think they will be my hog hunting head of choice this year.How do you think they will do on big boar hogs?


----------



## kyhunter5569

nolimitarchery said:


> There have been at least 4 or 5 manufacturers that have sent Seth broadheads, just to let you know.


I stand corrected


----------



## ToddM

Seth, Will you still be listing the total penetration measurement in inches along with the new penetration "score". If not would it be possible to have it listed as additional data. I just personally think the penetration measurement in inches is very important as well, especially for people that might be considering using these heads on something larger than a whitetail. 

I don't mind the new carnage calculation, but I think all it does is bring those heads that didn't penetrate nearly as well closer to those that had exceptional penetration, especially as I understand it a pass through only gets 1 more point compared to an arrow that just barely make it through.


----------



## basnbuks

Ttt


Sent across the ocean in a beer bottle


----------



## seiowabow

sethro02 said:


> Mail call! these heads are added to this weekend
> Exodus!
> Magnus snuffer ss
> Titanium extreme!


Seth, did you get the grizz trick yet?

Sent from my DROID4 using Tapatalk 2


----------



## nolimitarchery

0nepin said:


> I'm am really liking the gravediggers and I think they will be my hog hunting head of choice this year.How do you think they will do on big boar hogs?


They do great there has been about 10 hogs killed over 150 pounds in Calif. I have a few guys Blacktail hunting this weekend in Calif. that will also be chasing a few hogs.


----------



## Wildhunter19

ToddM said:


> Seth, Will you still be listing the total penetration measurement in inches along with the new penetration "score". If not would it be possible to have it listed as additional data. I just personally think the penetration measurement in inches is very important as well, especially for people that might be considering using these heads on something larger than a whitetail.
> 
> I don't mind the new carnage calculation, but I think all it does is bring those heads that didn't penetrate nearly as well closer to those that had exceptional penetration, especially as I understand it a pass through only gets 1 more point compared to an arrow that just barely make it through.


I can see this as being a good thing as well. I don't know how many people hunt in Alaska or even live here that are on here. But I do and would like to see the penetration in inches as well if that is ok. If not then the picture will be fine. Thanks again for all your time and effort.


----------



## sethro02

Guys..bowling with kids...will address all posts in a little while


----------



## 0nepin

nolimitarchery said:


> They do great there has been about 10 hogs killed over 150 pounds in Calif. I have a few guys Blacktail hunting this weekend in Calif. that will also be chasing a few hogs.


I will get some and put them to the test on some pretty big boar hogs.I'm sure they will do very well.


----------



## sethro02

Kyhunter5569...gravedigger..trophy taker...vpa...steelforce...solid...have all sent or are sending broadheads


----------



## kyhunter5569

I didn't realize that I apologies


----------



## 7sand8s

Has he tried the rage Xtreme.. I didn't see it....It doesn't matter, I think Im going with the ULMER EDGE


----------



## sethro02

Their is no carnage score like mentioned earlier.im changing penetration scores...yes as extra data only I will list total penetration...this will not count in the final score...i understand why you guys like the full penetration to judge it against real world...also keep in mind if these broadheads get through to gel then they will most likely get a passthrough with a good shot


----------



## sethro02

No prob kyhunter...i should have announced that earlier...i have not tried extremes yet


----------



## Jwillman6

The broadheads I would like to see tested: Wacem Tritons, Slick Trick Viper Trick, Ramcats, QAD Exodus and Black Ops Trophy Taker Shuttle T locs. Mechanicals heads: Grim Reaper, Swacker, Rage Chisel point, Trophy Taker Ulmer Edge, G5 3-Blade model and Steelhead.


----------



## sethro02

jwillman6, several of those heads you listed have already been tested.


----------



## sethro02

I am currently working on all the new scoring from the heads that have already been shot...also will be adding the cutting surface for all of them so that you know it.


----------



## ember

Interested to see how the Striker does this weekend. Great broadhead.


----------



## 0nepin

Jwillman6 said:


> The broadheads I would like to see tested: Wacem Tritons, Slick Trick Viper Trick, Ramcats, QAD Exodus and Black Ops Trophy Taker Shuttle T locs. Mechanicals heads: Grim Reaper, Swacker, Rage Chisel point, Trophy Taker Ulmer Edge, G5 3-Blade model and Steelhead.


Im glad somebody asked to see the wacem triton.


----------



## ember

0nepin said:


> Im glad somebody asked to see the wacem triton.


Hey Onepin is that a Triton or a Striker last Fixed on the right? Does have a gold ferrel like a Triton.


----------



## sethro02

i believe the wac em is to the left of the silverflame, striker is last on the right yes.


----------



## ember

Thanks Seth that swirl pattern on the blades and cutting dia. Should have gave it away. Good head to head for these two broads.


----------



## sethro02

no problem man


----------



## 0nepin

sethro02 said:


> It does! Wrkng on getting pic of raging ulmer extreme


Tttt


----------



## TP63

Can't wait to see the BPS Gator...got some for xmas and havn't had a chance to use them on anything yet.


----------



## sethro02

still measuring broadheads..........................


----------



## BearArcher1980

I am still stuck on this thread lol


----------



## sethro02

haha....measuring done! now updating scores with new scoring system on broadheads that have been shot


----------



## sethro02

this may be the biggest announcement tonight!!!!!!!!!!! Guess what has been added to mechanicals this weekend!!!!



Grim Reaper Razortip 1 3/8"!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!just came ups

Thank Jason Laurer on here !!!


----------



## sethro02

big announcement for reaper fans anyway...


----------



## JLArcher

I was wondering if they arrived it.


----------



## jdbond

Seth, this is amazing! I had left the archery game a few years back cause my dad did and I didn't hsve anyway to get back into it. Well now I am getting ready to purchase a bow and am lookin at bh again. I used to soot savoras. Are they still around? I also have to give your wife credit! You better hang on to her!


----------



## bonecollector66

this is a great thread, are you gonna do the slicktrick line up ?


----------



## badbow148

I want to thank all of your hard work and the awesome amount of info. you have given all of us.


----------



## sethro02

no problem guys, yes doing slick tricks when they come in the mail


----------



## sethro02

a couple of things to note before i get started posting the new scores with the updated scoring
1. i upped the t3 durability score because of the blade issue being part my arrow's fault?! I feel they should be shot with any arrow but anyways...
2. i upped the ulmer edge broadhead sharp before and after scores...i bought another pack today to see if the problem has been resolved and it has. Shot the broadhead again like everything else. they were as sharp as the shuttle t's
3. i will post the TOTAL penetration scores next to the total score. this does not count as the total score but ABSOLUTELY NEEDS to be taken into consideration.
4. the number next to each broadhead is it's TOTAL CUTTING SURFACE

ALSO PLEASE READ THIS!!!!!!!! I FELT THE PENETRATION SCORE VALUE WAS WAY TO HIGH...THIS MEANS A FIELDPOINT WOULD WIN THIS COMPETITION...I HAVE BEEN GOING AROUND AND AROUND WITH THIS. I DO NOT WANT TO DISCREDIT WHAT I HAVE DONE SO FAR SO I AM DOING THIS TO HELP THIS SCORING SYSTEM..ALSO!!!!! IT IS UP TO YOU TO PAY VERY CLOSE ATTENTION TO THE OVERALL CUTTING SURFACE AND THE TOTAL PENETRATION NUMBERS. THIS IS VERY IMPORTANT!!!! JUST BECAUSE YOUR BROADHEAD HAS A LOWER SCORE DOES NOT MEAN IT DOES A LOWER TOTAL PERCENTAGE OF "DAMAGE"... i hope you guys understand.


----------



## 0nepin

Can't wait Seth ,you have put a ton of effort into this.Thanks


----------



## sethro02

Also im still missing rage 2 blade, spitfire, and rage extreme total cutting surfaces,,,,,working on it!


----------



## BearArcher1980

Seth, this thread keeps getting better and better


----------



## qmb9015

thanks alot for doing this seth we all really appreciate what you are doing as far as the scoring i personally am just looking for a picture of the entrance hole and exit hole (if there is one) and the amount of penetration but more importantly i just want to know what heads are gonna break or bend. Also if you need any help with anything let me know cause i have all of the time in the world since im currently unemployed and will only be in tx for another month i figured i could do something productive and help you out since you are doing all of this for us


----------



## sethro02

This is all the mechanicals that have been shot.


Rage 2 Blade test results:
penetration- 8
durability- 3
dependability-5
sharp before- 5
sharp after- 3
flight- 5
total score- 29 out of 35 (total penetration 8")


G5 T3, 3.25" cut surface
penetration- 8
durability- 2
dependability- 4
sharp before- 5
sharp after- 4
flight- 5
total score= 29 out of 35 (total penetration 8")



TT ulmer edge, 2'' cut
penetration- 11
durability- 3
dependability- 5
sharp before- 4
sharp after- 3
flight- 5
total score- 31 out of 35 (total penetration, passthrough)


Nap Killzone, 2.75" cut surface
penetration- 6
durability- 3
dependability- 5
sharp before- 1
sharp after- 1
flight- 5
total score- 21 out of 35 (total penetration, 6")


Nap Spitfire, cutting surface unknow, working on it
penetration- 8 
durability- 4
dependability- 3
sharp before- 1
sharp after- 1
flight- 5
total score- 22 out of 35 (total penetration, 8")


Raging Ulmer, 3" cutting surface
penetration- 10
durability- 3
dependability- 5
sharp before- 5
sharp after- 3
flight- 5
total score- 31 out of 35 (total penetration, 20")


TR Steelhead xl, 1.75'' cut surface
penetration- 9
durability- 4
dependability- 1
sharp before- 4
sharp after- 2
flight- 5
total score- 25 out of 35 (total penetration, 11")


TR Steelhead standard, 1.75" cut surface
penetration- 10
durability- 4
dependability- 1
sharp before- 4
sharp after- 2
flight- 5
total score- 26 out of 35 ( total penetration, 13")


Rage Extreme, cut surface, unknown,,,,working on it
penetration- 8 
durability- 3
dependability- 5
sharp before- 5
sharp after- 3
flight- 5
total score- 29 out of 35 ( total penetration, 8")


Reign, 1.75" cutting surface
penetration- 10
durability- 0 FAIL
dependability- 4
sharp before- 5
sharp after- 3
flight- 5
total score- 27, fail (total penetration, 16")


G5 Tekan, 2.375" cut surface
penetration- 9
durability- 4
dependability- 4
sharp before-5
sharp after-4
flight- 5
total score- 31 out of 35 (total penetration, 9")



Grim Reaper WTS, 3.625" cut surface
penetration- 9
durability- 0 FAIL
dependability- 2
sharp before- 5
sharp after- 3
flight- 5
total score- 24 out of 35 FAIL ( total penetration, 9.5")


Nap Bloodrunner 2 blade, 2.75" cut surface
penetration- 6
durability- 2
dependability- 5
sharp before- 5
sharp after- 3
flight- 5
total score- 26 out of 35, (total penetration, 6")


----------



## sethro02

I need to do the fixed blades still but I am done for tonight...big weekend this weekend.


----------



## BASSFAN07

Seems like I check this thread every 5 minutes just anticipating new info. Clearly it's not bow season yet. 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD


----------



## Caligater

Seth, you're putting an extraordinary amount of work into this. Clearly you have an idea how you would score these things, so just decide what you feel is best and leave it at that. Ignore the nay-sayers with "better" way to do things. If they can't tell which head they like best from what you're putting together, then they probably shouldn't cross the road without holding their mother's hand either.

Also, IMO, ignore all the requests for the OLD heads. If you can't buy it on the shelf today, I wouldn't test it. If guys want you to test the old head they've killed 10 deer with just to see how it stacks up against the new stuff, they're wasting your time. If those old heads are successful for those guys, then no need to continue testing. I know there will probably be guys wanting you to test old heads against the new to maybe convince the manufacturer to bring back an old design or what-not, but you've got a family that deserves your attention more than most the folks on here that need someone to quantify why the BH they shoot is the "best".


----------



## tiger77

Seth, just a reminder that before putting the grim reaper on an arrow, you might want to take the collar off to make sure the ring and all holding the blades is correct, it will make the broadhead perform as it should. 
You are doing a great job man, best thread thus far


----------



## sethro02

Ok...thanks guys....wife is getting a little tired of it!


----------



## kylecurtis04

thanks seth! great thread going on here.


----------



## MarksExtra

sethro02 said:


> Ok...thanks guys....wife is getting a little tired of it!


Seth....this is you taking thursday and Friday off? LOL It's after 11pm and you're still posting. Great job on the testing. As others have said, it's brought life back to AT.


----------



## Bowhuntr64

sethro02 said:


> Ok after several conversations here is what I am thinking on an extra Carnage score...if this does not go over well i'll have to think of something else.
> 
> How I will be scoring:
> Step 1. entry hole size ( 2blade 2" cut, if works properly will be 2 points)
> 
> Step 2. The actual size of the cut through ballistics gel ( 2 blade 2" cut worked perfectly so it would be 2 points since its cut was 2 ")
> 
> Step 3. Total Penetration through gel ( maximum of 8 points since gel is 8" thick)
> 
> Step 4. Exit Hole size ( 2 blade 2" that works right will have a 2" exit hole giving it 2 points)
> 
> So it would look like this: Cut size through gel X penetration + entry + exit = ?
> 
> so for this example it would be: 2 X 8 +2 + 2= 20
> 
> If this DOES NOT go over well then I will continue with what i have been doing and you can let the pics of entry sizes and etc. do the talking and help you decide. Thanks


Very good!


----------



## Bowhuntr64

sethro02 said:


> This is all the mechanicals that have been shot.
> 
> 
> Rage 2 Blade test results:
> penetration- 8
> durability- 3
> dependability-5
> sharp before- 5
> sharp after- 3
> flight- 5
> total score- 29 out of 35 (total penetration 8")
> 
> 
> G5 T3, 3.25" cut surface
> penetration- 8
> durability- 2
> dependability- 4
> sharp before- 5
> sharp after- 4
> flight- 5
> total score= 29 out of 35 (total penetration 8")
> 
> 
> 
> TT ulmer edge, 2'' cut
> penetration- 11
> durability- 3
> dependability- 5
> sharp before- 4
> sharp after- 3
> flight- 5
> total score- 31 out of 35 (total penetration, passthrough)
> 
> 
> Nap Killzone, 2.75" cut surface
> penetration- 6
> durability- 3
> dependability- 5
> sharp before- 1
> sharp after- 1
> flight- 5
> total score- 21 out of 35 (total penetration, 6")
> 
> 
> Nap Spitfire, cutting surface unknow, working on it
> penetration- 8
> durability- 4
> dependability- 3
> sharp before- 1
> sharp after- 1
> flight- 5
> total score- 22 out of 35 (total penetration, 8")
> 
> 
> Raging Ulmer, 3" cutting surface
> penetration- 10
> durability- 3
> dependability- 5
> sharp before- 5
> sharp after- 3
> flight- 5
> total score- 31 out of 35 (total penetration, 20")
> 
> 
> TR Steelhead xl, 1.75'' cut surface
> penetration- 9
> durability- 4
> dependability- 1
> sharp before- 4
> sharp after- 2
> flight- 5
> total score- 25 out of 35 (total penetration, 11")
> 
> 
> TR Steelhead standard, 1.75" cut surface
> penetration- 10
> durability- 4
> dependability- 1
> sharp before- 4
> sharp after- 2
> flight- 5
> total score- 26 out of 35 ( total penetration, 13")
> 
> 
> Rage Extreme, cut surface, unknown,,,,working on it
> penetration- 8
> durability- 3
> dependability- 5
> sharp before- 5
> sharp after- 3
> flight- 5
> total score- 29 out of 35 ( total penetration, 8")
> 
> 
> Reign, 1.75" cutting surface
> penetration- 10
> durability- 0 FAIL
> dependability- 4
> sharp before- 5
> sharp after- 3
> flight- 5
> total score- 27, fail (total penetration, 16")
> 
> 
> G5 Tekan, 2.375" cut surface
> penetration- 9
> durability- 4
> dependability- 4
> sharp before-5
> sharp after-4
> flight- 5
> total score- 31 out of 35 (total penetration, 9")
> 
> 
> 
> Grim Reaper WTS, 3.625" cut surface
> penetration- 9
> durability- 0 FAIL
> dependability- 2
> sharp before- 5
> sharp after- 3
> flight- 5
> total score- 24 out of 35 FAIL ( total penetration, 9.5")
> 
> 
> Nap Bloodrunner 2 blade, 2.75" cut surface
> penetration- 6
> durability- 2
> dependability- 5
> sharp before- 5
> sharp after- 3
> flight- 5
> total score- 26 out of 35, (total penetration, 6")


Seth, did you intend to write TT Ulmer Edge 2" cut? Was that a modification or did you mean 1.5" cut?


----------



## basnbuks

Good stuff


Sent across the ocean in a beer bottle


----------



## nvarcher1

Bowhuntr64 said:


> Seth, did you intend to write TT Ulmer Edge 2" cut? Was that a modification or did you mean 1.5" cut?


That's the cutting surface not the cut width. There always will be more cutting surface than how wide the cut is.


----------



## hurricanepepper

how about a seth only result thread with photos and this is the wrap up thread.

my head hurts.


----------



## sethro02

Haha...yes its total cutting suface..including tip! Cutting surface does the damage


----------



## sethro02

I still need to type up fixed heads...and this is a result of me taking 2 days off of shooting not actual job..didnt quite realize the time in this at the beginning so if everyone stays patient I would appreciate it


----------



## MarkBaHoi

I'm late sending out my promised heads so I tossed in a redhead gator.

Hope to get these out today but wife is keeping me too busy!


----------



## MarkBaHoi

There are too many other posters, see if a mod will give you a locked down sticky so only you can post....we can discuss in a separate thread.


----------



## sethro02

Fixed head test reults with new scoring of heads that were already shot:

Steelforce Sabertooth ss 4"x1" cut surface
penetration- 9
durability- 5
dependability- 5
sharp before- 5
sharp after- 4
flight- 5
total score- 33 out of 35 (total penetration, 9")


Steelforce Phathead, 1"x 3/4" cut surface
penetration- 10
durability- 5
dependability-5
sharp before-5
sharp after- 5
flight- 5
total score- 35 out of 35 (total penetration, 21")


G5 Montec SS, cut surface ?, working on it
penetration- 9
durability- 5
dependability- 5
sharp before-4
sharp after- 3
flight- 5
total score- 31 out of 35 ( total penetration, 9")


TT Shuttle T, cut surface ?, working on it
penetration- 10
durability- 5
dependability- 5
sharp before- 4
sharp after-3
flight-5
total score- 32 out of 35 (total penetration, 26"!)



Trufire T1, 3.75" cut surface
penetration- 10
durability- 5
dependability- 5
sharp before- 4
sharp after- 3
flight- 5
total score- 32 out of 35 (total penetration, 14")


Muzzy Mx3, 2.875" cut surface
penetration- 10
durability- 5
dependability- 5
sharp before- 4
sharp after- 3
flight-5
total score- 32 out of 35 (total penetration, 16.5")


Ramcat, 3.25" cut surface
penetration- 10
durability- 3
dependability- 5
sharp before- 5
sharp after-4
flight- 5
total score- 32 out of 35 (total penetration, 20")


----------



## sethro02

Also guys remember these scores are super close,,,so please look at ALL THE STATISTICS (cut surface, total penetration, etc.)before making your decision.


----------



## kyhunter5569

Thanks again Seth


----------



## 0nepin

No need for lock down .everybody complaining about having to scroll through a few pages is silly.think about all the work Seth put into this for our benefit ,and he's not complaining .be patient and maybe he will start a result thread.For the lazy people that have not been following this thread from the get go and just want answers now without have to scroll through a few pages.The interaction and contribution from other poster and manufactures is one of the things that's has took this thread over the top.


----------



## sethro02

Thanks guys...still early in the morning here but wife is taking baby to mall so daddy can shoot stuff for you guys!


----------



## Michael Myers

sethro02 said:


> Thanks guys...still early in the morning here but wife is taking baby to mall so daddy can shoot stuff for you guys![/QUOTE)I am almost Convinced to go to Fixed Heads again....Maybe...I am moving up to 125 Gr heads for sure.Keep up the Tremendous Work,Seth.Enjoy your Weekend,Grizz


----------



## Kansas Bruisers

Can't wait to see todays results, it's gonna suck when this comes to an end.


----------



## qmb9015

Kansas Bruisers said:


> Can't wait to see todays results, it's gonna suck when this comes to an end.


 yea it is this thread is the only real reason why i get on here i woke up this mornin and second thing i did was check this thread


----------



## jdbond

Just a guess but I'd say its 4" one way and the other way is 1".... so can anyone tell me about the savora mechanical?


----------



## goathollow

0nepin said:


> No need for lock down .everybody complaining about having to scroll through a few pages is silly.think about all the work Seth put into this for our benefit ,and he's not complaining .be patient and maybe he will start a result thread.For the lazy people that have not been following this thread from the get go and just want answers now without have to scroll through a few pages.The interaction and contribution from other poster and manufactures is one of the things that's has took this thread over the top.


Easy now, this is one of the few threads in recent history that hasnt deteriorated to name calling and bashing. Let us please..out respect for Seth, keep it that way. I agree it need not be locked down (unless Seth prefers it be) but not everyone has time to follow this thread hour by hour. Just because someone comes on late doesn't automatically make them lazy.

With that said, for those coming on late please also respect Seth's time by first scrolling thru the thread or do a search to find info on your broadhead.


----------



## sethro02

Yes thank you also if you come in late and have questions about the system their are several guys on here that could answer if I dont quick eniugb...thanks guys...getting heades together now


----------



## MarkBaHoi

goathollow said:


> Easy now, this is one of the few threads in recent history that hasnt deteriorated to name calling and bashing. Let us please..out respect for Seth, keep it that way. I agree it need not be locked down (unless Seth prefers it be) but not everyone has time to follow this thread hour by hour. Just because someone comes on late doesn't automatically make them lazy.
> 
> With that said, for those coming on late please also respect Seth's time by first scrolling thru the thread or do a search to find info on your broadhead.


I think should stay open but have a results sticky too  sorry that wasn't clear!


----------



## sethro02

Here we go!!!! Round 5 Mechanicals
1. gravedigger
2. grim reaper razortip
3. nap bloodrunner 3 blade


----------



## sethro02

Round 3 Fixed!!
1. Exodus
2. G5 Striker
3. Nap Thunderhead


----------



## sethro02

Grave digger test results:
penetration- 9
durability- 5
dependability-3 ( mechanical blades were completely open through gel, just not upon entry of medium)
sharp before- 5
sharp after- 4
flight- 5
total score- 31 out of 35


----------



## sethro02

grave digger


----------



## ole' bowhunter

Caligater said:


> Seth, you're putting an extraordinary amount of work into this. Clearly you have an idea how you would score these things, so just decide what you feel is best and leave it at that. Ignore the nay-sayers with "better" way to do things. If they can't tell which head they like best from what you're putting together, then they probably shouldn't cross the road without holding their mother's hand either.
> 
> Also, IMO, ignore all the requests for the OLD heads. If you can't buy it on the shelf today, I wouldn't test it. If guys want you to test the old head they've killed 10 deer with just to see how it stacks up against the new stuff, they're wasting your timeIf those old heads are successful for those guys, then no need to continue testing. I know there will probably be guys wanting you to test old heads against the new to maybe convince the manufacturer to bring back an old design or what-not, but you've got a family that deserves your attention more than most the folks on here that need someone to quantify why the BH they shoot is the "best".


Very well said. Seth is doing the work, bearing most if not all of the expense and this is his project his thread and we should all just enjoy his findings.



sethro02 said:


> Ok...thanks guys....wife is getting a little tired of it!


Seth, you must have a most understanding Wife. You will need to reward Her when this is over!



kylecurtis04 said:


> thanks seth! great thread going on here.


This is what Stickies are made of.

Can't wait for the tests on the Slick Tricks!


----------



## kylecurtis04

sooooo pumped for these results. im feening for some more! lol


----------



## sethro02

gravedigger gel


----------



## sethro02

sorry ^ that is gravedigger gel exit


----------



## sethro02

thanks guys,,,taking her out tonight!


----------



## kyhunter5569

Love this today!!


----------



## 0nepin

sethro02 said:


> gravedigger gel
> View attachment 1410807


Looks like that would make for a very short blood trail!!


----------



## sethro02

Grim REaper 1 3/8 razortip test results
penetration- 9
durability- 5
dependability- 2
sharp before- 4
sharp after- 3
flight- 5
total score- 28 out of 35


----------



## pinski79

0nepin said:


> Looks like that would make for a very short blood trail!!


that's what I was thinking


----------



## sethro02

sorry guys some pics arent loading, im hurrying


----------



## sethro02

Grim reaper.....sorry guys only 2 out of 4 of grim pics are working


----------



## E.J.

Niiice....heck of an exit and pressumed entrance for the grave digger...good work


----------



## sethro02

Nap Bloodrunner 3 blade test results
penetration- 8
durability- 4
dependability- 4
sharp before- 5
sharp after- 4
flight- 5
total score- 30 out of 35 ( total penetration, 8")


----------



## sethro02

bloodrunner 3 blade


----------



## sethro02

bloodrunner 3 blade


----------



## sethro02

On all three of these heads, there penetration score was also their actual penetration.....forgot to mention that on a couple


----------



## markman

Sethro, great thread man keep up the good work. My only comment though would be if you could to try a differnt NAP Killzone and Spitfire. You must have gotten a bad pack becuase NAP make some of, if not the sharpest broadheads out there. I think this would affect your scores greatly. I have used both of these heads and they are scary sharp(right on par with slick tricks). I see you re-tested the T3's so why not the NAP Killzone and Spitfire? I wouldn't bring this up if I didn't think the NAP's were so sharp. Your test is the only test/comment I ever heard that Spitfire or Killzone was dull/not sharp. Im not bashing your thread in any way, I just can't believe they were dull! Thanks again for your tests, great job!


----------



## sethro02

grabbing food then doing fixed round 3


----------



## sethro02

let me see what i can do on killzones and spits...i re tested the t3 because i was unaware you should not shoot them with axis arrows?


----------



## hedp

sethro02 said:


> grabbing food then doing fixed round 3



Cool. Can't wait to see the Exodus. Thanks for all of your work man.




How is this great thread not a sticky yet?
.


----------



## qmb9015

sethro02 said:


> Nap Bloodrunner 3 blade test results
> penetration- 8
> durability- 4
> dependability- 4
> sharp before- 5
> sharp after- 4
> flight- 5
> total score- 30 out of 35 ( total penetration, 8")
> View attachment 1410815


why did it get 4 for dependability and durability just curious...did the blades not push out all the way on entry?


----------



## shererski

That gravedigger exit is nasty!!! Nice work seth I've been following everyday.


----------



## BASSFAN07

markman said:


> Sethro, great thread man keep up the good work. My only comment though would be if you could to try a differnt NAP Killzone and Spitfire. You must have gotten a bad pack becuase NAP make some of, if not the sharpest broadheads out there. I think this would affect your scores greatly. I have used both of these heads and they are scary sharp(right on par with slick tricks). I see you re-tested the T3's so why not the NAP Killzone and Spitfire? I wouldn't bring this up if I didn't think the NAP's were so sharp. Your test is the only test/comment I ever heard that Spitfire or Killzone was dull/not sharp. Im not bashing your thread in any way, I just can't believe they were dull! Thanks again for your tests, great job!


How about contributing some to him if you want a re test. 
Keep it up Seth. Your doing great. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## sethro02

to the bloodrunner....sorry i should have noted. it was not fully open until it hit gel...it almost was but not quite....durability 4 because the "shaft " that slides up and down was slightly bent...it worked but had drag


----------



## sethro02

One more thought about the killzones and spitfires....ulmer edge broadheads were dull too but i was contacted by trophy taker and was explained the problem....so i bought another pack...still dull ( because the glitch heads still werent off shelf)....bought another pack last night...Sharp as shuttle T's....my point is Nap has yet to contact me, which i doubt they will...if they send me some new ones then i will re test but for the time being i will not...MAYBE after all of this is done but we will see.


----------



## nolimitarchery

Thanks Seth,

I just want to clarify the Grave Digger is not designed to open on entry they are designed to punch through the skin and open just inside.


----------



## pinski79

sethro02 said:


> One more thought about the killzones and spitfires....ulmer edge broadheads were dull too but i was contacted by trophy taker and was explained the problem....so i bought another pack...still dull ( because the glitch heads still werent off shelf)....bought another pack last night...Sharp as shuttle T's....my point is Nap has yet to contact me, which i doubt they will...if they send me some new ones then i will re test but for the time being i will not...MAYBE after all of this is done but we will see.


pretty much my thoughts. If nap wants you to test sharp ones they should have made them that way or send you some new ones


----------



## GarrickTX

Quick question on the fixed blade BHs in the pic a couple pages back, what is the name of the BH that is green and had some wicked looking blades? It was the one on the far left.... I think I knew the name at one point but now i can't remember for the life of me.


----------



## Michael Myers

markman said:


> Sethro, great thread man keep up the good work. My only comment though would be if you could to try a differnt NAP Killzone and Spitfire. You must have gotten a bad pack becuase NAP make some of, if not the sharpest broadheads out there. I think this would affect your scores greatly. I have used both of these heads and they are scary sharp(right on par with slick tricks). I see you re-tested the T3's so why not the NAP Killzone and Spitfire? I wouldn't bring this up if I didn't think the NAP's were so sharp. Your test is the only test/comment I ever heard that Spitfire or Killzone was dull/not sharp. Im not bashing your thread in any way, I just can't believe they were dull! Thanks again for your tests, great job!


Believe it,I like Nap heads but have had some that were not Extremely Sharp,Was not impressed with The 2 Blade Bloodrunners at all.,I Also believe that all Broadhead companies ship out Dull heads time to time-Quality Control.Grizz


----------



## screaminbulls1

It is the NAP Braxe


GarrickTX said:


> Quick question on the fixed blade BHs in the pic a couple pages back, what is the name of the BH that is green and had some wicked looking blades? It was the one on the far left.... I think I knew the name at one point but now i can't remember for the life of me.


----------



## Michael Myers

nolimitarchery said:


> Thanks Seth,
> 
> I just want to clarify the Grave Digger is not designed to open on entry they are designed to punch through the skin and open just inside.


If you had 125 Gr heads,I Prolly would buy some from you.Grizz


----------



## sethro02

Dale, 
My bad, i thought it was suppose to open upon entry...if that is the case then yes it was fully open at impact of gel......i will change the score.


----------



## sethro02

Exodus test results
3.37" cut surface

penetration- 9
durability- 5
dependability- 5
sharp before- 5
sharp after- 4
flight- 5
total score - 33 out of 35


----------



## sethro02

exodus


----------



## Obi-wanShinobi

Thanks for all the hard work you've done so far. I've already made my choices this season due to this thread. I'm going with the Ulmer's for mechanicals and Shuttle T's for fixed. I would also love to try the Gravediggers if I knew where to get them.


----------



## sethro02

exodus gel


----------



## sethro02

nolimitarchery.com for gravediggers


----------



## sethro02

G5 Striker test results
3.6" cutting surface

penetration- 9
durability- 4 ( all 3 blades were nicked up )
dependability- 5
sharp before- 5
sharp after- 3
flight-5
total score- 31 out of 35 ( total penetration, 9")

THIS IS THE ONLY STRIKER PIC I CAN GET TO UPLOAD,,TRYING FOR THE OTHERS


----------



## sethro02

Guys sorry the exodus total penetration was 9"!!!! I apologize for missing that


----------



## sethro02

Nap thunderhead test results

3.85" cut surface
penetration- 8
durability- 5
dependability- 5
sharp before- 4
sharp after- 3
flight- 5
total score- 30 out of 35 ( total penetration, 8")


----------



## sethro02

thunderhead


----------



## sethro02

thunderhead


----------



## xcr 1.5

How are you figuring the total cut surface?


----------



## 0nepin

sethro02 said:


> This weekend's Mechanical Broadheads to be tested. no particular order. PLEASE NOTE the grave digger is a fixed/mechanical combination!
> View attachment 1410162


Can't wait to see the entry hole from Ray Charles.(far left).


----------



## sethro02

adding the cutting blades and tip (if it has one) and getting the total.

example...g5 t3...each blade is 1"...1x3= 3 +.25 tip= 3.25 total cutting surface.


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## sethro02

this reminds me...i did not post cutting surface on the 3 mechanicals test! dang Seth get it together!!!

nap bloodrunner 2.87" surface cut
grim razor tip 2.55" surface cut
gravedigger 4.25" surface cut ( biggest so far in testing!!)


----------



## Michael Myers

0nepin said:


> Can't wait to see the entry hole from Ray Charles.(far left).


Why do you call it Ray Charles?LOl


----------



## hedp

sethro02 said:


> Exodus test results
> 3.37" cut surface
> 
> penetration- 9
> durability- 5
> dependability- 5
> sharp before- 5
> sharp after- 4
> flight- 5
> total score - 33 out of 35
> View attachment 1410862




Awesome!


----------



## sethro02

that ramcat did hit pretty hard.


----------



## chirohunter73

sethro02 said:


> gravedigger gel
> View attachment 1410807


WOW!!!! Is all I can say


----------



## 0nepin

GrizzlyMan1980 said:


> Why do you call it Ray Charles?LOl


If sethro post the entry hole after he test it we will all know why.haha .if he could video the test shot I think everybody would be shocked at the spark they make when the blades deplory on entry.


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## BILLDOGGE

Looks like the Gravedigger= A Lot of Damage!! That will leave a mark


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## sethro02

Guys do to some time constraints today I will probably have to test the others tomorrow...inlcuding the racy charles edition rage! Sorry


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## sethro02

thanks dale your one broadhead ruined my gel!!!!! usually i can get 4 or 5 shots in the same one....but no you just had to make that ridiculously huge cut broadhead!!!!


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## sethro02

Onepin im sure your broadhead will cut my gel in half as well.....thanks! lol


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## 0nepin

sethro02 said:


> Guys do to some time constraints today I will probably have to test the others tomorrow...inlcuding the Ray charles edition rage! Sorry


no hurry sethro , you are a machine .thank


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## Norwegian Woods

sethro02 said:


> Guys do to some time constraints today I will probably have to test the others tomorrow...inlcuding the racy charles edition rage! Sorry


No problem at all 
You take it easy and relax. After all, you should enjoy this and not feel like it is a stressful job with a harsh time limit 
You do us all a great favor doing this, so we have no problems waiting a bit.

Again, thank you very much for doing this!


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## Sivart

I don't feels as good about my grim reapers anymore....


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## sethro02

your welcome guys, thanks for understanding... we have tested 26 heads already!!!! that is crazy! This thread better get to 100,000 views/posts!!!


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## sethro02

sivart...dont forget all these heads will kill animals...but I am glad you take my testing into consideration...alot of people are so hopefully this hunting season is the most successful season you will have!!!


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## Johnson230

Not trying to add more to the work load, but have you given any thought to editing the first post to reflect all of the heads tested and the results? Kind of a quick rundown for people instead of having to sort through 30-50 some odd pages, and more as time goes on.

Thank you for all you have done. These are real tests without any $$ influence to give a false result for advertising.


----------



## sethro02

After you guys have now seen the new test scoring you are probably thinking their are gonna be alot of heads with the same score....well I have been thinking. I do not think the total penetration numbers should go un used. so at the END of all the testing , in the event of a tie..( which their will be ) I will order them by highest total penetration...
EXAMPLE
grim wts
tekan
ulmer 
all these heads have 31....the ulmer will be placed first due to the total it ACTUALLY PENETRATED!!!! I hope you think this is fair.. their really isnt another way i can break a tie. all of those penetration numbers are facts from this test so thats why i feel it would be good too.


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## sethro02

do you mean all of this? page 35
This is all the mechanicals that have been shot.


Rage 2 Blade test results:
penetration- 8
durability- 3
dependability-5
sharp before- 5
sharp after- 3
flight- 5
total score- 29 out of 35 (total penetration 8")


G5 T3, 3.25" cut surface
penetration- 8
durability- 2
dependability- 4
sharp before- 5
sharp after- 4
flight- 5
total score= 29 out of 35 (total penetration 8")



TT ulmer edge, 2'' cut
penetration- 11
durability- 3
dependability- 5
sharp before- 4
sharp after- 3
flight- 5
total score- 31 out of 35 (total penetration, passthrough)


Nap Killzone, 2.75" cut surface
penetration- 6
durability- 3
dependability- 5
sharp before- 1
sharp after- 1
flight- 5
total score- 21 out of 35 (total penetration, 6")


Nap Spitfire, cutting surface unknow, working on it
penetration- 8 
durability- 4
dependability- 3
sharp before- 1
sharp after- 1
flight- 5
total score- 22 out of 35 (total penetration, 8")


Raging Ulmer, 3" cutting surface
penetration- 10
durability- 3
dependability- 5
sharp before- 5
sharp after- 3
flight- 5
total score- 31 out of 35 (total penetration, 20")


TR Steelhead xl, 1.75'' cut surface
penetration- 9
durability- 4
dependability- 1
sharp before- 4
sharp after- 2
flight- 5
total score- 25 out of 35 (total penetration, 11")


TR Steelhead standard, 1.75" cut surface
penetration- 10
durability- 4
dependability- 1
sharp before- 4
sharp after- 2
flight- 5
total score- 26 out of 35 ( total penetration, 13")


Rage Extreme, cut surface, unknown,,,,working on it
penetration- 8 
durability- 3
dependability- 5
sharp before- 5
sharp after- 3
flight- 5
total score- 29 out of 35 ( total penetration, 8")


Reign, 1.75" cutting surface
penetration- 10
durability- 0 FAIL
dependability- 4
sharp before- 5
sharp after- 3
flight- 5
total score- 27, fail (total penetration, 16")


G5 Tekan, 2.375" cut surface
penetration- 9
durability- 4
dependability- 4
sharp before-5
sharp after-4
flight- 5
total score- 31 out of 35 (total penetration, 9")



Grim Reaper WTS, 3.625" cut surface
penetration- 9
durability- 0 FAIL
dependability- 2
sharp before- 5
sharp after- 3
flight- 5
total score- 24 out of 35 FAIL ( total penetration, 9.5")


Nap Bloodrunner 2 blade, 2.75" cut surface
penetration- 6
durability- 2
dependability- 5
sharp before- 5
sharp after- 3
flight- 5
total score- 26 out of 35, (total penetration, 6")


----------



## Johnson230

Please excuse me while I remove my foot from my mouth. 

I hadn't made it that far yet. Thank you for the quick reference.


----------



## sethro02

here is some more johnson320

Fixed head test reults with new scoring of heads that were already shot:

Steelforce Sabertooth ss 4"x1" cut surface
penetration- 9
durability- 5
dependability- 5
sharp before- 5
sharp after- 4
flight- 5
total score- 33 out of 35 (total penetration, 9")


Steelforce Phathead, 1"x 3/4" cut surface
penetration- 10
durability- 5
dependability-5
sharp before-5
sharp after- 5
flight- 5
total score- 35 out of 35 (total penetration, 21")


G5 Montec SS, cut surface ?, working on it
penetration- 9
durability- 5
dependability- 5
sharp before-4
sharp after- 3
flight- 5
total score- 31 out of 35 ( total penetration, 9")


TT Shuttle T, cut surface ?, working on it
penetration- 10
durability- 5
dependability- 5
sharp before- 4
sharp after-3
flight-5
total score- 32 out of 35 (total penetration, 26"!)



Trufire T1, 3.75" cut surface
penetration- 10
durability- 5
dependability- 5
sharp before- 4
sharp after- 3
flight- 5
total score- 32 out of 35 (total penetration, 14")


Muzzy Mx3, 2.875" cut surface
penetration- 10
durability- 5
dependability- 5
sharp before- 4
sharp after- 3
flight-5
total score- 32 out of 35 (total penetration, 16.5")


Ramcat, 3.25" cut surface
penetration- 10
durability- 3
dependability- 5
sharp before- 5
sharp after-4
flight- 5
total score- 32 out of 35 (total penetration, 20")


----------



## sethro02

no prob


----------



## Sivart

One question that I have on the flight score. Shouldn't the mechanicals get a better score than the fixed blades? I know that no matter how well my bows are tuned, they don't fly as close to my fieldpoints as the mechanicals do.


----------



## sethro02

my bow is perfectly tuned...so at 20 yards i see no difference at all...also in most cases...some fixed blades are built with tighter tolerances than some mechanicals so if you have a tuned setup their should be no difference. that flight score also has alot to do with flight noise... and in this testing so far their hasn't been any that were loud...but once again its only a 20 yard shot.


----------



## buckhunter1

Marked


----------



## Top_Pin_Archery

Sethro02.... A god amongst mortals. Thank you and your family for all of this. I think I can speak on behalf of the entire archery community that the time and effort you have put is most definitely unnecessary BUT very appreciated. Thank you. 

And a side note: shuttle t black ops for me this year. Shot them out to 80 yards last night and hit within 3" of my field point.


----------



## sethro02

top pin thank you...broadhead engineering amazes me so that is why i do this...i love breaking down exactly what went wrong/ right....glad you made a confident decision....plenty more heads still to go though!!!! i didnt think this would even get 1000 views when i first started...or they would be posts like " i aint huntin' plywood dude". or something like that...


----------



## sethro02

Mechanicals i have that are yet to be tested:
1. Trophy Ridge meat seeker 1.5" 3 blade
2. Trophy Ridge meat seeker 2" 3 blade
3. Redhead Gator
4. Titanium Rage Extreme ( ray charles edition)


Fixed:
1.Muzzy old school 100
2. silverflame
3.braxe
4. wac em' triton
5. magnus snuffer ss
6. Slick trick magnum 100 grain ( yes it is finally here for you st guys!)


----------



## DanBlacksher

would like to see this one tested to see if it penetrates http://www.nextraarchery.com/


----------



## qmb9015

DanBlacksher said:


> would like to see this one tested to see if it penetrates http://www.nextraarchery.com/


i think its a great lookin broadhead but it would probably break the blades right off


----------



## sethro02

someone kindly measured spitfire cutting surface for me....2.92"


----------



## sethro02

kinda hard to tell on that broadhead? their website picture is cartoonish?


----------



## DartonHunter101

great work


----------



## sethro02

im a little confused by the nextra broadhead...it is specifically designed to not have a entrance hole...so if it does damage on the inside, then where does the blood come out?


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## qmb9015

i think its supposed to just create a huge amount of internal damage and bleeding so that it fills up the chest cavity and eventually out of the smallish hole atleast thats my theory


----------



## qmb9015

here is a youtube video on it with an actual doe and examination of the meat http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1jUxg7FzKi0 warning graphic for all that care


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## sethro02

here ya go onepin....you asked for it...Raging Ulmer Extreme....(this will not be tested)


----------



## DanBlacksher

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_WbmBdFjgXw here is another video of the nextra broadhead


----------



## kdog23

sethro02 said:


> After you guys have now seen the new test scoring you are probably thinking their are gonna be alot of heads with the same score....well I have been thinking. I do not think the total penetration numbers should go un used. so at the END of all the testing , in the event of a tie..( which their will be ) I will order them by highest total penetration...
> EXAMPLE
> grim wts
> tekan
> ulmer
> all these heads have 31....the ulmer will be placed first due to the total it ACTUALLY PENETRATED!!!! I hope you think this is fair.. their really isnt another way i can break a tie. all of those penetration numbers are facts from this test so thats why i feel it would be good too.


I agree and actually think penetration should have an even greater factor especially for those of us that go after elk moose and larger animals


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## sethro02

i agree kdog but it is almost impossible to keep this fair for everyone so that is why im using it as the tie breaker in the end results. hope everyone understands.


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## sethro02

i have no problem testing a Nextra broadhead if someone has one...im curious to see how it stacks up on a not so perfect shot.


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## Michael Myers

I packaged a Old School Broadhead in with the Rage 2 Blade,Somebody said it was a Sattelite 140,Not sure.Will send Monday morning Seth.Grizz


----------



## sethro02

thx bud


----------



## DanBlacksher

sethro02 said:


> i have no problem testing a Nextra broadhead if someone has one...im curious to see how it stacks up on a not so perfect shot.


I am in total agreement with you on that. Was wanting to see that before giving them a try.


----------



## Bones816

I have been watching and reading this thread from day 1 and it has been epic. But, I always believed that it took more KE to get good penetration with a mechanical broadhead. Now I'm left with this question...Why do the mechs seem to have better penetration than the fixed blades? I know many of them, both fixed and mech have been very close, around the 8 or 9 inch mark but a couple of the mechs have had complete pass throughs and I don't think any of the fixed has. Is it the broadhead or is it inconsistantcies in the plywood/gel/plywood? I really thought the regular Thunderhead with it's longer yet less angled blades would shine. What do you all say?


----------



## sethro02

Some of the mechanicals literally have nothing stopping it through the first medium...ulmer for example...those little tabs create zero drage so by the time the ferrule is in gel its still retaining alot of energy to push through second set


----------



## brokenlittleman

If I would have to guess it is because some are not open fully on entry. Because of this there is less resistance going through the media unti they are full deployed. The amount of resistence is consistent on a fixed blade as they are fully deployed the whole time. Good way to see the change is the video's on NAP's web site were you can see the wound channel start out very small and then get larger as the blades deploy.


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## tcarter86

Seth good thread man , has someone sent you a grizztrick yet. If not I'll send you one to test.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## brokenlittleman

sethro02 said:


> Some of the mechanicals literally have nothing stopping it through the first medium...ulmer for example...those little tabs create zero drage so by the time the ferrule is in gel its still retaining alot of energy to push through second set


Beat me to it.


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## sethro02

And so far in this test anyways if a fixed head has a long ferrule it is not going in az far


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## sethro02

St mag but no standard or grizz...pm me if you want


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## Michael Myers

sethro02 said:


> St mag but no standard or grizz...pm me if you want


Ya mine are mags and so is the old one up at the camp,Have to go up there tommorow morning to bait the bear,I Will check it out,Grizz


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## RustyUlmer

sethro02 said:


> Some of the mechanicals literally have nothing stopping it through the first medium...ulmer for example...those little tabs create zero drage so by the time the ferrule is in gel its still retaining alot of energy to push through second set


Just to clarify, the Ulmer Edge IS completely open before the tabs penetrate the wood. I don't know if Seth took a pic of this or not but there is always at least a 1 1/2" entry cut.


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## tiger77

Seth, just looking to clarify why the dependability was a 2 on the razor tip?


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## sethro02

yes rusty they were all the way open...what is good about your head is that alot of the ferrule is through the wood, then come the blades...your blades are extremely easy to open.

grim razor was not open on entry...one blade was "opening"


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## sethro02

ok i have a grizztrick coming


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## sethro02

sorry rusty i should have clarified a little bit better in the earlier statement


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## sethro02

Here you go Rusty,,and everyone else....this was the ENTRANCE hole of the tt ulmer edge


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## tiger77

sethro02 said:


> yes rusty they were all the way open...what is good about your head is that alot of the ferrule is through the wood, then come the blades...your blades are extremely easy to open.
> 
> grim razor was not open on entry...one blade was "opening"


Okay thanks, I figured that, but that's as expected, thanks


----------



## 0nepin

sethro02 said:


> Onepin im sure your broadhead will cut my gel in half as well.....thanks! lol


Haha maybe!! I look forward to the rest of your test Seth .I can't wait for the gravedigger and ulmer edge to show up Here I have plans for both of them.The carnage pic from this deer season will not be like anything that we have seen befor.


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## sethro02

nice, cant wait to see


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## sethro02

onepin thanks for donation! thanks to everyone as well. much appreciated


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## Darth_Bane

you are doing any awesome job. Keep up the good work. I wonder how they all would preform out of a bow getting 80+ KE.


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## sethro02

Prob pretty good..just wanted to keep ke and speed down towards average numbers


----------



## 0nepin

sethro02 said:


> onepin thanks for donation! thanks to everyone as well. much appreciated


Thank for the Broadhead performance education Seth .


----------



## HAPPY DAD

I'm ready to see that titanium again


----------



## Porkrind

Crimson Talon X-System anybody? I'm just curious if anyone has any feedback one those.


----------



## basnbuks

Curious about the slicks cant wait.


Sent across the ocean in a beer bottle


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## ihuntforchrst

just got back from a 24 day tdy. I really missed a lot. this is the easily the best broadhead test i've ever seen. great job seth!!!!!!

i'm really looking forward to the day you test all the slick tricks. Honestly don't think they will penetrate as well as the shuttle t's, but thats because they have more blades.


----------



## 0nepin

Sethro thank for posting a pic of the raging ulmer extreme you put together in fraken broadhead thread in the broadhead sub forum.I'm going to have to kill alot of deer this season to try out all of these bad arce boadheads.in no particular order .rage Supercreech ,rage ray Charles ,rage chisel extreme aka the Timmy chisel, raging ulmer extreme aka sethro2.5.and what ever mod I come up with for the gravediggers.thanks bud.It's only four heads sofar that I plan on using and I have been kown to take that many deer In the first week of bow season .


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## UTGrad

Seth,

I love this thread but giving probably the most reliable mechanical in history (Grim Reaper 1 3/8") a 2 for reliability is a disappointment. The Grim Reaper works time and time again and has proven itself for 10 years.

Keep it up but I'm going to be a bit skeptical of your results.

Explain why the Grim Reaper was not reliable again please.


----------



## Hustle

can you buy the trophy ridge ulmer edge in a 2" cut or did you make it, if somebody made it i would like to buy some.


----------



## 0nepin

Hustle said:


> can you buy the trophy ridge ulmer edge in a 2" cut or did you make it, if somebody made it i would like to buy some.


Check out the franken broadhead thread in the bowhunting sub forum for details .and yes he made it.


----------



## jctd18

First off i wanted to tell you again that you are doing a great job. I know that i and many other ATers appreciate the real world info you have given us. I was just wondering what BH you were shooting before this test, and if you have decided to change because of your testing. Not sure if its been asked yet. Just curious. Thanks buddy


----------



## jctd18

I know you shoot steel froce but which ones?


----------



## BASSFAN07

UTGrad said:


> Seth,
> 
> I love this thread but giving probably the most reliable mechanical in history (Grim Reaper 1 3/8") a 2 for reliability is a disappointment. The Grim Reaper works time and time again and has proven itself for 10 years.
> 
> Keep it up but I'm going to be a bit skeptical of your results.
> 
> Explain why the Grim Reaper was not reliable again please.


He answered the same question already in post 1156. Only one blade was deploying upon entry. He's not poo pooing the reapers, but rather putting them through the same test as every other broad head and testing performance.

You can't really be skeptical of his results because he is independent and carrying out an independent unbiased test where every broad head is being tested the same. If you don't like the results then,.....


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD


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## UTGrad

All 3 blades will deploy on a Grim Reaper unless one doesn't assemble the head correctly.


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## deanzr2

I'm pretty sure the Reaper he tested was the 2" whitetail special, not the standard 1 3/8"


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## chaded

I knew it would be a matter of time before someone got their feelings hurt about their broadhead.


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## 0nepin

deanzr2 said:


> I'm pretty sure the Reaper he tested was the 2" whitetail special, not the standard 1 3/8"


He tested both.


----------



## 0nepin

chaded said:


> I knew it would be a matter of time before someone got their feelings hurt about their broadhead.


Seth seems as honest as it comes to me.I sent in the wts and I have accepted what it did.


----------



## UTGrad

chaded said:


> I knew it would be a matter of time before someone got their feelings hurt about their broadhead.


LOL! Yep but I will stack whitetails all day long with the 1 3/8" Grim Reapers with pass throughs and great blood trails. Just find this test not correlating with my in field experience with the Grim Reaper.


----------



## Mike318

what pages are results on? dangit.


----------



## UTGrad

mikepahl318 said:


> what pages are results on? dangit.




Mike aren't you a Reaper user? Seems like your avatar pic looks familiar.


----------



## BASSFAN07

UTGrad said:


> LOL! Yep but I will stack whitetails all day long with the 1 3/8" Grim Reapers with pass throughs and great blood trails. Just find this test not correlating with my in field experience with the Grim Reaper.


Your not the first to feel their head didn't fair as well in the test as in the field. Seth has said several times in the thread that all these heads will kill deer. He merely came up with a test to put all these broad heads under the same test and see how they rate versus each other. 

Like you, the broad head I currently shoot, g5 t3, didn't fare as well in the test as I thought it would. I don't question the test or the tester, but just take it for what it's worth and understand the under these conditions, other broad heads tested out better. 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD


----------



## chaded

0nepin said:


> Seth seems as honest as it comes to me.I sent in the wts and I have accepted what had it did.


I hope you know I meant like someones personal favorite and not the actual person that sent in the head. Just wanted to clarify.


----------



## chaded

UTGrad said:


> LOL! Yep but I will stack whitetails all day long with the 1 3/8" Grim Reapers with pass throughs and great blood trails. Just find this test not correlating with my in field experience with the Grim Reaper.


I would keep using what your confident with and kill deer with. I'm sure a person could stack whitetails all day long with any of the broadheads in this test though.


----------



## tiger77

UTGrad said:


> LOL! Yep but I will stack whitetails all day long with the 1 3/8" Grim Reapers with pass throughs and great blood trails. Just find this test not correlating with my in field experience with the Grim Reaper.


I agree, Hardest hitting of all the ones I experience but that's our own experience, also I have hardly found reviews negative or failures, also the blades deploy from the front so it is expected to have a smaller entry but devastating results, but he is doing a good job nonetheless


----------



## 0nepin

chaded said:


> I hope you know I meant like someones personal favorite and not the actual person that sent in the head. Just wanted to clarify.


I know , I agree with you.


----------



## Mike318

UTGrad said:


> Mike aren't you a Reaper user? Seems like your avatar pic looks familiar.


Yes big time reaper user! cant find the results on this and dont want to go through each page, hook a brotha up?


----------



## Ned250

I just read all 40 pages. This is awesome stuff. I'll go ahead and volunteer to be the data miner and build a spreadsheet of all the results and any commentary that Seth posts (like why a head failed). I will make it available for download. Maybe Seth could post the link in the OP?

I'll get crackin' on this tomorrow AM.


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## Mike318

Reaper


----------



## sethro02

Hey guys..im on date night and not allowed to chk phone! So I will address everything being talked abiut...thx for the support guys


----------



## sethro02

Fyi I can assemble bh's


----------



## Bowhuntr64

Seth. Great job with everything. 

I am a bit confused about the Total Cutting Surface. Are you measuring the length of the blades or just the cutting diameter per blade multiplied by the number of blades? I read what you wrote, but I don't really get it. It seems that a Slick Trick Standard, for example, with a 1" cut and 4 blades, would have a Total Cut Surface of .5 x 4 = 2" of cut. Or an Exodus which has a 1.25" diameter and three blades would have a Total Cut Surface of .625 x 3 = 1.875".

Not sure how you are coming up with the larger numbers you are writing in this regard. It seems that the size of the hole is the only thing that should matter in this regard. 

What do you think?


----------



## Bowhuntr64

UTGrad said:


> LOL! Yep but I will stack whitetails all day long with the 1 3/8" Grim Reapers with pass throughs and great blood trails. Just find this test not correlating with my in field experience with the Grim Reaper.


I really love the tests, but this one is a surprise to me and for the thousands of other Reaper users here on AT. I have very, very rarely even heard of one not opening. I have never seen one not open. Not sure what happened. Interesting.


----------



## Buckfevr

mikepahl318 said:


> Reaper
> 
> View attachment 1411285
> View attachment 1411286
> View attachment 1411287
> View attachment 1411288


With that placement a field point would have done the job.


----------



## Bowhuntr64

sethro02 said:


> Grim reaper.....sorry guys only 2 out of 4 of grim pics are working
> View attachment 1410813


What do you think happened with the Reapers? What does it mean that 2 didn't work?


----------



## Mike318

Buckfevr said:


> With that placement a field point would have done the job.


but a 2" WTS did a better job.

thanks for compliment on placement, i try.


----------



## pinski79

Bowhuntr64 said:


> What do you think happened with the Reapers? What does it mean that 2 didn't work?


he is talking about pictures


----------



## HC Knives

chaded said:


> I knew it would be a matter of time before someone got their feelings hurt about their broadhead.


I was waiting for that myself..


----------



## kyhunter5569

Ulmer edge for me this year!
Very good video on YouTube explaining this head as well 
With this test Seth has done has made me change my mind on a few broadheads


----------



## JLArcher

deanzr2 said:


> I'm pretty sure the Reaper he tested was the 2" whitetail special, not the standard 1 3/8"


The first set of grim reapers he tested were the mathews version(gold in color) the second set was the original grim reaper and they were the 1-3/8" version. I know because i sent them to him. I have been shooting them for years but the truth is they did not perform when stacked up to other broadheads. I am disappointed at the broadhead and not the test or tester. 

Same test, same bow, same arrow, same target not much room for variation. The results are what they are so say what you want about the broadheads but the test is the same for everyone and Seth has gone above and beyond anyone else on here to get us this info.

If your broadhead of choice did not perform them maybe that company did a really good job of marketing it and gave the perception that it was indestructible, this test will prove that,

Good job Seth and if you need anything else pm me.


----------



## UTGrad

mikepahl318 said:


> Reaper
> 
> View attachment 1411285
> View attachment 1411286
> View attachment 1411287
> View attachment 1411288



Bingo!!


----------



## Bones816

If a guy was going to by the Ulmers, how would he know he was getting the newer, sharper ones and not the dull ones?


----------



## MarksExtra

JLArcher said:


> If your broadhead of choice did not perform them maybe that company did a really good job of marketing it and gave the perception that it was indestructible, this test will prove that,
> 
> .


Umm...I don't believe that's what was said or was talking about. He said in his real world experience he's not had failures. He wasn't talking about indestructible broadheads either, he was talking about blade deployment. After 10 years of kills; I don't think Reaper has done a good marketing job that's fooled tens of thousands of hunters. Hunters are savy and if the broadhead stinks they're going to know it. You don't get the Reaper following by having failures over and over. His point was made in that it seems odd to have opening failures in this test. Not because the test or tester is flawed but because 10 years of real world experience has shown Reapers to be pretty good at opening. Nothing wrong with pointing out something odd.


----------



## aight its jake

i dont even think they grim reapers performed bad. arent they the ONLY mech that had a 5 out of 5 rating fro durability. and they did not enter flesh which has a pucker factor. test is awesome but for you grim reaper users (including myself).... no worries just put em in the right spot and watch em drop!


----------



## xcr 1.5

sethro02 said:


> adding the cutting blades and tip (if it has one) and getting the total.
> 
> example...g5 t3...each blade is 1"...1x3= 3 +.25 tip= 3.25 total cutting surface.


If you had a 1" diameter 3 blade head. Each blade is 1/2". So the total cut is 1.5" right? I cant math today I guess...


----------



## Speed 1B

Really enjoying the test. Ive been a slick trick shooter since the day i started archery hunting, but ive been considering changing it up this year. Really looking forward to seeing the new viper trick results. Ive been considering the exodus as well so it was nice to see that head do well in the testing. One head that im interested in that i havent heard much about is the wasp z-force. Im not a mechanical head guy at all, but that head looks really solid and pretty much fail proof. Hopefully that head can find a place in the test as well. Thanks for all of the hard work.


----------



## tiger77

aight its jake said:


> i dont even think they grim reapers performed bad. arent they the ONLY mech that had a 5 out of 5 rating fro durability. and they did not enter flesh which has a pucker factor. test is awesome but for you grim reaper users (including myself).... no worries just put em in the right spot and watch em drop!


Right on man, no worries, watch em drop is right!!


----------



## tiger77

When this testing is over, ill having nothing to look forward to


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## basnbuks

I can see were this is headed, man i hope not!!!


Sent across the ocean in a beer bottle


----------



## qmb9015

xcr 1.5 said:


> If you had a 1" diameter 3 blade head. Each blade is 1/2". So the total cut is 1.5" right? I cant math today I guess...


i believe he is doing the cutting surface so each blade is 1" long not 1" from the center and with 3 of them you get 3 and then with the tip having a cutting surface of .25" you get 3.25"


----------



## mdnabors

UTGrad said:


> All 3 blades will deploy on a Grim Reaper unless one doesn't assemble the head correctly.


I don't doubt Seth's efforts one bit, but I too was curious if the blades were checked after the head was screwed on. It is very common for at least 1 blade to be in the "locked" position when you try to manually deploy the blades when testing. So after learning the hard way (shooting through paper targets and only seeing 1 or 2 blades deploy) I learned that you need to check them to make sure the blades are "set" and ready to deploy and not locked tight. I have to agree that I've never seen one not fully open once I made sure all 3 blades where set for deployment and not locked. But again, I'm guessing Seth checked them and did this before hand and something unforeseen happened that, fortunately, hasn't happened to me thus far in the field after checking my heads first.


----------



## mathewshooterxt

UTGrad said:


> LOL! Yep but I will stack whitetails all day long with the 1 3/8" Grim Reapers with pass throughs and great blood trails. Just find this test not correlating with my in field experience with the Grim Reaper.


Then keep shootin them and shut up! Do your own friggin testing if you don't like the results. Its a wonder anyone would post their results of testing products on here anymore. Too many cry babies. Reminds me of the stabilizer test thread that the results were never posted because some stabilizer maker on here got his panties in a bunch because his stabilizers that he TTT's 5 times a day sucked in the tests!


----------



## mattheww1377

anyone shooting shuttle t's ???? are they accurate at ranges of 40-60 ? are they quiet in flight. I have shot the t3's for a lil while because they hit where my FP's do and they fly quiet, but after seeing seths test and having the same happen to my heads a couple times have decided to change... Seth this is the best thread on AT.... period .... Keep up the good work it helps us archers more than you will know....Thanks and God bless... Matt


----------



## digger02

Ive been shooting the shuttle t's for about 4 yrs. Super quiet. No problems grouping at 40-60 yards. Im pretty picky on my arrow set up but i have tuned them to shoot out to 80 yds. They flat out kill anything i aim at. Flat out loving this thread!!!!!


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## BearArcher1980

Awesome testing today Seth, thank you again...


----------



## fisheye1

What happened to the Magnus Buzzcut 4 blades? Pretty popular head,If I had one I would send it in-or did I miss something?Anyhoo thanks Seth for all your hard work and thanks to your wife for her cooperation-she is one fine lady!


----------



## MarksExtra

mathewshooterxt said:


> Then keep shootin them and shut up! Do your own friggin testing if you don't like the results. Its a wonder anyone would post their results of testing products on here anymore. Too many cry babies. Reminds me of the stabilizer test thread that the results were never posted because some stabilizer maker on here got his panties in a bunch because his stabilizers that he TTT's 5 times a day sucked in the tests!


wow. So he posts a relevant comment about his real world experiences and you start name calling. hhmmm....I wonder which person should keep their comments to themselves?


----------



## Michael Myers

BearArcher1980 said:


> Awesome testing today Seth, thank you again...


x2!!!,Keep up the Excellent Work,Grizz


----------



## 0nepin

Over 50,000 views and climbing !!!!!


----------



## Bones816

Bones816 said:


> If a guy was going to by the Ulmers, how would he know he was getting the newer, sharper ones and not the dull ones?


Anybody?


----------



## Longbow42

I knew the Exodus would do well. I have thoroughly tested it and killed my spring bear with one. It completely severed the spine of a 20" bear and went another 14"into his vitals. The blades were still sharp and only one was slightly bent. It sounded like a rifle going off when it hit his spine. Their edge is also very impressive, not too many that are that sharp out of the box.


----------



## TauntoHawk

Seth in your own opinion how did the Exodus vs Shuttle T stack up?


----------



## bassman417

Ive been following this thread since the biginning and its awesome. Seth is helping all of us tremendously and I greatly appreciate his time and efforts. The plywood is to simulate bone correct? so even if your goal is to blast through shoulder blades to hit the goodies most of these bhs will do the trick.


----------



## Michael Myers

Longbow42 said:


> I knew the Exodus would do well. I have thoroughly tested it and killed my spring bear with one. It completely severed the spine of a 20" bear and went another 14"into his vitals. The blades were still sharp and only one was slightly bent. It sounded like a rifle going off when it hit his spine. Their edge is also very impressive, not too many that are that sharp out of the box.


I Hadnt heard or seen much info on the Exodus,Seems like an Awesome head,I am changing to 125 Gr Fixed heads,Just havent decided on which Heads yet.Is that the Only head you shoot?Grizz


----------



## Northern Archer

Man UTGRAD sure is crying over this thread all over the forums. Too bad his head did not measure up like he thought it should. I guess he did not read Seth's disclaimer about all the heads. He is taking it very personal and shooting bad word about Seth and his efforts. Every broad head has it's strengths and weaknesses, just be aware of them and shoot accordingly. Great job Seth!


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## RustyUlmer

Bones816 said:


> If a guy was going to by the Ulmers, how would he know he was getting the newer, sharper ones and not the dull ones?


Ask the pro shop staff to open the package and check. If their packs have dull blades they can return them to Trophy Taker and exchange for sharp ones. Or if you buy them and open them and they are dull you can exchange them through TT.


----------



## Bones816

Thanks Rusty. 

I think the biggest topic we should be discussing after all of this is that Seth's tests have shown that mechs shot at an average KE can and do, penetrate as well as the fixed blade heads. I think that means that what I have seen to be the biggest bash on Rage broadheads mainly but all mechs to a degree, their apparent lack of penetration, should stop. I think some who have been afraid to shoot a mechanical broadhead because they've been told they won't penetrate, can stop thinking that way. Thanks agian Seth and Geat job!


----------



## ArcheryRoad

Bones816 said:


> Anybody?


i would buy some save receipt and package, if not sharp then return and explain.. tell them to ship there old heads back and replace with new ones


----------



## Kansas Bruisers

Bones816 said:


> Thanks Rusty.
> 
> I think the biggest topic we should be discussing after all of this is that Seth's tests have shown that mechs shot at an average KE can and do, penetrate as well as the fixed blade heads. I think that means that what I have seen to be the biggest bash on Rage broadheads mainly but all mechs to a degree, their apparent lack of penetration, should stop. I think some who have been afraid to shoot a mechanical broadhead because they've been told they won't penetrate, can stop thinking that way. Thanks agian Seth and Geat job!


I can't argue with the results of Seth's tests but I can speak about my own experiences with mechs and fixed heads. I shot mechs for quite a few years and shot alot of deer with them, very few ever passed through. I switched to fixed blades about 10 years ago and have shot alot of deer with them, very few did not pas through. The fixed blades that did not pass through hit the biggest part of the opposite shoulder.

I won't use mechs again because of my own experiences with them and not what other people say about them.


----------



## ArcheryRoad

oops just saw that rusty took care of ur question


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## 0nepin

RustyUlmer said:


> Ask the pro shop staff to open the package and check. If their packs have dull blades they can return them to Trophy Taker and exchange for sharp ones. Or if you buy them and open them and they are dull you can exchange them through TT.


Rusty how hard are they to just sharpen your self?over the years I have bought broadheads from
Every manufacture and have dull ones from time to time.I just sharpen them my self,it's very easy to do.


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## Bones816

0nepin said:


> Rusty how hard are they to just sharpen your self?over the years I have bought broadheads from
> Every manufacture and have dull ones from time to time.I just sharpen them my self,it's very easy to do.


What's easy for some might not be so easy for others Onepin. I don't have the "sharpening" gene in me. Back in the day I could bowl pretty damn good though! I'm looking to buy a kme if I could find one that somebody was looking to sell.


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## sethro02

Um wow is all i can say after reading some of this. let me get to the positives first i guess....

'First off i wanted to tell you again that you are doing a great job. I know that i and many other ATers appreciate the real world info you have given us. I was just wondering what BH you were shooting before this test, and if you have decided to change because of your testing. Not sure if its been asked yet. Just curious. Thanks buddy''

I have shot steelforce sabertooth SS last year....undecided this year
last year i shot Muzzy mx3
year before i shot Rage 2 blade
year before meat seeker's

their were a couple years i have a couple different types in my quiver.


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## sethro02

''Seth in your own opinion how did the Exodus vs Shuttle T stack up?''

personally i thought it was farely close enethough the shuttle T went in farther, i think the determining factor with the shuttle T is how quiet!!!its crazy!!!!you hear nothing!!!!


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## Longbow42

sethro02 said:


> ''Seth in your own opinion how did the Exodus vs Shuttle T stack up?''
> 
> personally i thought it was farely close enethough the shuttle T went in farther, i think the determining factor with the shuttle T is how quiet!!!its crazy!!!!you hear nothing!!!!


The T is a good head for sure. The Exodus being non vented is very quiet. One difference is how sharp the blades are on the Exodus, between the two, there is no comparison. There is also less blade surface area on the T which helps it be so quiet, but both are quiet, much more than a ST or similar BH with large blade vents.


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## sethro02

the cutting surface number that i have came up with is measuring each cutting blade and adding it together...in my OPINION i feel you SHOULD knw the cutting surface of your head to know exactly how much of your head cuts....if you dont agree then im sorry, i just felt this gives you a more exact idea of what your head cuts compared to the cutting diameter. If you would rather use your cutting diameter to figure what you want then by all means do so.


EVERY BROADHEAD IS CREATED EQUAL in this testing, i check and recheck mechanicals before i shoot...the grim reaper 1 3/8" was checked! i remember exactly how it went down...put the collar on put in on arrow made sure blades lined up with channels before tighteneing...then checked and made sure ALL 3 fully deployed...closed them,, then shot....i have no idea what else you want me to say...If your broadhead from this test is working for you then use that broadhead!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! This test is to simulate a NOT SO PERFECT shot...this media is harder than ribs but in my opinion softer then shoulder!!!!!! i have shot whitetail shoulders, i have shot whitetail ribs!!! i have felt them in person!!!! so that is what i wanted to test! A average hard shot on a broadhead and to see what it does.... I have said numerous times! most all these broadheads are good, they wouldnt be in business if they didnt do their job! sorry your reaper was not open on impact...it was open fully once inside the gel....but impact it was not.


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## bowhuntermn

I can't wait to see how the German Kinetic (SilverFlame) does. I purchased a 3 pack of the 125 grain XL's and they are a true work of art. And the sharpness of them is bizarre to say the least. Keep up the good work Seth and don't forget family is first.....


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## sethro02

longbow good point...exodus did stay sharper...IN MY OPINION!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## RustyUlmer

0nepin said:


> Rusty how hard are they to just sharpen your self?over the years I have bought broadheads from
> Every manufacture and have dull ones from time to time.I just sharpen them my self,it's very easy to do.


Onepin,
Judging by your experience with broadhead gene splicing and surgical amputations and reimplantations of various ferrule/blade combinations, I don't think you would have any problem sharpening the blades yourself. You just have to remember that we use a modified single bevel edge. We use 420 SS so it's not hardto put an edge on it. I think it's great what you and Seth have done with your Frankenheads.


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## sethro02

Rusty, 
those dull ones i had i sharpend it with a diamond stone and it worked quite well too.


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## sethro02

Ok guys i wanna first say thanks for all the positive support...yes im spending a ton of money and time on this....it's kinda getting stressful to be honest. we do not have a whole more heads to go but honestly since i get fired up pretty easy sometimes, i think i should work on my boat and do a little family stuff to get away from this for a day or two. I have ten broadheads in the garage right now...these will all be tested this week... i think i will still have a few coming in the mail as well. I want the good conversations of this to continue...but like i said i may not get to test tonight, but this week for sure,,,their are some popular heads still to go!!!


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## Ned250

I gathered up all of the results I could find. There are a few things missing (highlighted yellow). Anyone with the link can edit, so feel free to update if you feel like it.

Seth - maybe adding this to the OP will help people find the overall results.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AgJEvQwzfDRZdGxzdC15R0JIZDJGQ1J4bVpGV1pTWHc

Edit - the spreadsheet is sorted in score - high to low.


----------



## X finder

Does anybody know if there will a 125 grain Ulmer Edge available this year. Would love to give those a shot I just don't want to change my setup it's dialed in with 125s.


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## BILLDOGGE

Seth take some time and ignore all the haters. You are doing a GREAT job!!!!!


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## sethro02

Hey ur spreadsheet is good...i have all those missing numbers...they were posted but I have list anyways...ill pm u when I get back home


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## sethro02

At the very end if their are ties then the tiebreak will be total penetration


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## MTBiker

Please don't ignore the negative comments, learn and grow from them... Ignore the personal attacks.


----------



## pinski79

I've very much enjoyed watching this. Thanks for all the hard work


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## lovetohunt93

I just read a ton of of this thread to catch up! Keep it up man, one of the best threads out there.


----------



## Top_Pin_Archery

mattheww1377 said:


> anyone shooting shuttle t's ???? are they accurate at ranges of 40-60 ? are they quiet in flight. I have shot the t3's for a lil while because they hit where my FP's do and they fly quiet, but after seeing seths test and having the same happen to my heads a couple times have decided to change... Seth this is the best thread on AT.... period .... Keep up the good work it helps us archers more than you will know....Thanks and God bless... Matt


I shot mine a couple nights ago out to 80. Hit about 3 inches low and 1 inch left of my field points. I shot it a couple of times and with littel variance.


----------



## ruffme

Suggestion box:

Anyway when its all over you could get a sticky of JUST THE RESULTS?
42 pages and growing is a lot to weed through to get to result postings. 

I'm not saying but just saying...


----------



## nolimitarchery

Seth,

I want to thank you for all your hard work on this thread. As a manufacturer we always want our products to work and do there best so we look to the best attributes of our products. In reality the public looks to the worst to see if they measure up, you know "worst case scenario" Any test that is done can be geared towards the strength of any product. The reason I like your test is it is a equal test across the board, taking many factors into account. I know that others broadheads will do certain things better than mine but mine will do other things better than them. I will never stop trying to make my product better and give choices to the bowhunters from back east to out west. Everybody has there favorites and I would like to thank you for letting the Grave Digger compete on a equal footing.
Remember Broadheads are about your bad shots not your good ones.

Thank you 
Dale


----------



## sethro02

Yes ill try to get results sticky...thanks everyone for the comments


----------



## tapout155

nolimitarchery said:


> Seth,
> 
> I want to thank you for all your hard work on this thread. As a manufacturer we always want our products to work and do there best so we look to the best attributes of our products. In reality the public looks to the worst to see if they measure up, you know "worst case scenario" Any test that is done can be geared towards the strength of any product. The reason I like your test is it is a equal test across the board, taking many factors into account. I know that others broadheads will do certain things better than mine but mine will do other things better than them. I will never stop trying to make my product better and give choices to the bowhunters from back east to out west. Everybody has there favorites and I would like to thank you for letting the Grave Digger compete on a equal footing.
> Remember Broadheads are about your bad shots not your good ones.
> 
> Thank you
> Dale


After seeing how the grave digger did in this testing I can tell you that i will be buying a pack and shooting them, i guess the only thing i have to figure out is how well they fly, becuse the penetration and damage appear to be there.


----------



## ruffme

sethro02 said:


> Yes ill try to get results sticky...thanks everyone for the comments


Thank you for all your hard work! been a great read!


----------



## jdbond

nolimitarchery said:


> Seth,
> 
> I want to thank you for all your hard work on this thread. As a manufacturer we always want our products to work and do there best so we look to the best attributes of our products. In reality the public looks to the worst to see if they measure up, you know "worst case scenario" Any test that is done can be geared towards the strength of any product. The reason I like your test is it is a equal test across the board, taking many factors into account. I know that others broadheads will do certain things better than mine but mine will do other things better than them. I will never stop trying to make my product better and give choices to the bowhunters from back east to out west. Everybody has there favorites and I would like to thank you for letting the Grave Digger compete on a equal footing.
> *Remember Broadheads are about your bad shots not your good ones.*
> 
> Thank you
> Dale


It's funny to me that the manufactures will get on here and say that Seth is doin a great job but the people who shoot the heads and the heads didn't fair so well on Seth's test and whinning that it's rigged or unfair. Seth has put a lot of time and money into this for our entertainment and to give use worse case senerio situation. Seth, once agian I'd like to say you are soin a great job! Thank you!


----------



## jdbond

nolimitarchery said:


> Seth,
> 
> I want to thank you for all your hard work on this thread. As a manufacturer we always want our products to work and do there best so we look to the best attributes of our products. In reality the public looks to the worst to see if they measure up, you know "worst case scenario" Any test that is done can be geared towards the strength of any product. The reason I like your test is it is a equal test across the board, taking many factors into account. I know that others broadheads will do certain things better than mine but mine will do other things better than them. I will never stop trying to make my product better and give choices to the bowhunters from back east to out west. Everybody has there favorites and I would like to thank you for letting the Grave Digger compete on a equal footing.
> Remember Broadheads are about your bad shots not your good ones.
> 
> Thank you
> Dale


It's funny to me that the manufactures will get on here and say that Seth is doin a great job but the people who shoot the heads and the heads didn't fair so well on Seth's test and whinning that it's rigged or unfair. Seth has put a lot of time and money into this for our entertainment and to give use worse case senerio situation. Seth, once agian I'd like to say you are soin a great job! Thank you!


----------



## Rothhar1

ILbonecollector said:


> How did you come to the conclusion they were dull?? I've used NAP heads for years and they are all scary sharp. Never has been an issue or a comparison to the sharpness. I don't get how u come to that conclusion? Must be a bias here with u?


LOL looks like the only one bias here was you !!!OPEN your mind!


----------



## dorkbuck33

Ned250 - A big thanks goes out to you also for the spreadsheet , as we can't thank Seth enough and to all those that sent him test heads as well. Even though the heads i got from Seth are not the highest scoring , they will perform just fine. I can base my own opinion from his tests and feel comfortable shooting the Rage chisel tips .My first test victim will be a black bear in Sept . By far the best post i have read and followed as stated by 99.9 % of all AT members. UTgrad blew it , always gotta have one cry baby i guess .


----------



## Speed 1B

Will the Wasp Z-force be in the test? Ive never seen one in person, but they look pretty good in the pics ive seen.


----------



## chirohunter73

There's always one crybaby in the crowd!!!! I don't know what his problem is if the head is working for you then keep using it, it's not rocket science!!


----------



## sethro02

I agree the zforce looks cool...let me catch up on these other heads first


----------



## deanzr2

I may try the Ramcats or Shuttles. I really like the looks of the Exodus, the Grave Digger, and the Ulmer, but I have my setups optimized with 125g points. If you get to test the Shwackers and they perform well, I may look at them, too. Thanks again for all the time and money you've put into this. As has been said, any broadhead on the market today will perform on deer sized game when everything goes well, it's the times things don't go quite as planned that we hunters have to be prepared for.


----------



## Steadfast1

Love the test man! Good work. I was gonna switch to fixed heads this year and wasn't sure which one. You're really helping my selection. I like the shuttle t's. But Im pumped to see some tricks get shot. You should do a test round of all the tricks together


----------



## DUCK-HUNT

Thanks for all the hard work, time , and money spent on this...... been making these rainy LA afternoons fly by!!!!


----------



## RustyUlmer

X finder said:


> Does anybody know if there will a 125 grain Ulmer Edge available this year. Would love to give those a shot I just don't want to change my setup it's dialed in with 125s.


TT says that the 125 gr aluminum ferrule version should be out in about a month. It is almost identical to the 100 gr version that is out now except for the weight. It uses the exact same blades as well.


----------



## ole' bowhunter

Ned250 said:


> I gathered up all of the results I could find. There are a few things missing (highlighted yellow). Anyone with the link can edit, so feel free to update if you feel like it.
> Seth - maybe adding this to the OP will help people find the overall results.
> 
> https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AgJEvQwzfDRZdGxzdC15R0JIZDJGQ1J4bVpGV1pTWHc
> 
> Edit - the spreadsheet is sorted in score - high to low.


Thanks, Ned250. That took some work too, and as for as an olebowhunter like me, I appreciate it.



pinski79 said:


> I've very much enjoyed watching this. Thanks for all the hard work


I've subscribed and I'm addicted!!



lovetohunt93 said:


> I just read a ton of of this thread to catch up! Keep it up man, one of the best threads out there.


By far and bar none!!


----------



## buckhunter1

Before this test it was Rage chisel tip, Exodus, and RamCats.. Now I have added the Ulmer and Grave Digger to my possibles. 

Thanks Seth!


----------



## 206Moose

Looks like fixed heads are dominating. 

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2


----------



## BearArcher1980

Seth, you deserve some family time...everyone does...you have done such an awesome job with this thread and I for one am very greatful for your time and efforts in this...it has been an equal test across the board with every head...cant get any better than that...even if you stopped here it has been the best test and info I have ever found on broadheads!!! Your family should be very proud of what you have done for our sport and my thanks goes to them aswell...God bless you man and your family


----------



## Bushwacked

This is a awesome thread 

Seth you have put a lot of work into this and have done an absolute awesome job.
Don't worry bout the negatives some people can't be pleased.
I would also like to thank your family for lending you to us for this educational thread.


----------



## 0nepin

sethro02 said:


> The sparks off of the titanium rage at impact was the coolest thing ever! My son about crapped his pants!


Everybody should get to see this atleast one time!!!!


----------



## 0nepin

Congrat utgrad you are the first one to make my ignore list.


----------



## Top_Pin_Archery

0nepin said:


> Congrat utgrad you are the first one to make my ignore list.


ha! wierd, he made mine also! 

:thumbs_up to sethro02 
:thumbs_do to UTGRAD


----------



## UTGrad

Awww...my feelings are hurt lol


----------



## sethro02

Ill get an updated list of heads im testing soon


----------



## 0nepin

Top_Pin_Archery said:


> ha! wierd, he made mine also!
> 
> :thumbs_up to sethro02
> :thumbs_do to UTGRAD


I'm sure he is going to make alot of peoples ignore list.his rant is just silly.


----------



## MarksExtra




----------



## UTGrad

What rant are you talking about?


----------



## mike 04 gt

thanks Seth for all the Hard work, time and money you have put into this. you deserve some family time. looking forward to more testing when you get to it.


----------



## BILLDOGGE

0nepin said:


> Everybody should get to see this atleast one time!!!!


Onepin tape it and put it up for us to see.


----------



## olemossyhorns

Once again I want to thank you for all your hard work!!


----------



## Timinator

Seth, your manipulative and divisive and your test's can't be trusted at all! I really don't feel that way, I just wanted to be different. Keep up the good work. I'm bummed the Reign I sent you failed. I've had one bend while broadhead tuning too. They fly so good though!


----------



## qmb9015

BILLDOGGE said:


> Onepin tape it and put it up for us to see.


x2 lets see this


----------



## 0nepin

qmb9015 said:


> x2 lets see this


I will see what I can do.


----------



## chirohunter73

Onepin how hard is it to modify the rage heads?


----------



## 0nepin

chirohunter73 said:


> Onepin how hard is it to modify the rage heads?


Very easy ,you just need either a small file or a dremal tool.you can make them open faster or slower depending on how much barb you leave on the oring groove.


----------



## sethro02

Their is gonna be a test tonight!!!!!!!!!!!


----------



## BILLDOGGE

YES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Bring it!!


----------



## jdbond

Yay!! Can't wait!


----------



## sethro02

here we go!! round 4 fixed heads!
1. slick trick magnum
2. wac em' triton
3. old school muzzy 100


----------



## 0nepin

Man this should be a battle between those three proven killers.


----------



## Top_Pin_Archery

sethro02 said:


> here we go!! round 4 fixed heads!
> 1. slick trick magnum
> 2. wac em' triton
> 3. old school muzzy 100
> View attachment 1412040


yeahhhhh buddy!


----------



## axeforce6

Love those original muzzy's!


----------



## TimmyZ7

sethro02 said:


> here we go!! round 4 fixed heads!
> 1. slick trick magnum
> 2. wac em' triton
> 3. old school muzzy 100
> View attachment 1412040


Each of these heads are winners in their own right having already obtained a legion of kills under their belts. If you added up all of their blood trails you could fill a lake. I am sure this test will offer some braggin rights none the less and my bet is on the Slicks to do the trick.


----------



## Griz34

I'm betting on the Muzzy 100. I've had those in my quiver for 23 years. I carry other broadheads too, but always at least one three blade muzzy 100.


----------



## tdoutdoors

Just got a new bow this week and I'm looking for a broadhead to go with it. This testing is going to help me pick one. Thanks for all your efforts in testing and posting.


----------



## tack09

Sethro, you da man. I'm tuned in for the evening again.


----------



## basnbuks

Tunned in


Sent across the ocean in a beer bottle


----------



## sethro02

Slick Trick Mag test results:
3.15" total cut surface

penetration- 8
durability- 5
dependability- 5
sharp before- 5
sharp after- 4
flight- 5
total score- 32 out of 35 ( total penetration, 8")


----------



## sethro02

st mag
ATTACH=CONFIG]1412190[/ATTACH]


----------



## sethro02

sorry gel pic not uploading yet


----------



## flynh97

yes, been scrolling through this thread throughout the day looking for the slick tricks test. It's finally here!!!! Thanks seth so much for doing these tests, as a new bowhunter, it's really helping me choose my first broadhead to use this season, thank you again for all your time, money, and effort!


----------



## sethro02

Wac Em' Triton test results:
3.75" total cut surface

penetration- 10
durability- 0, Fail..........do not get angry
dependability- 4 ( gave it a 4 because the blade broke off at exit of vinyl, it actually cut through last piece of vinyl,,,but it is broke)
sharp before- 4
sharp after- 3
flight- 5
total score- 26 out of 35, FAIL (total penetration, 17")


----------



## sethro02

no prob bud


----------



## sethro02

triton
Missing bottom blade


----------



## sethro02

triton gel


----------



## seiowabow

sethro02 said:


> Slick Trick Mag test results:
> 3.15" total cut surface
> 
> penetration- 8
> durability- 5
> dependability- 5
> sharp before- 5
> sharp after- 4
> flight- 5
> total score- 32 out of 35 ( total penetration, 8")
> View attachment 1412184


I didn't figure the st would penetrate that great. 

Sent from my DROID4 using Tapatalk 2


----------



## sethro02

Muzzy 100 test results:
3.75" total cut surface

penetration- 10
durability- 4 (only 1 blade was slightly bent at the end, dont get angry)
dependability- 5
sharp before- 4
sharp after- 3
flight- 5
total score- 31 out of 35 ( total penetration, 12")


----------



## sethro02

muzzy 100


----------



## sethro02

muzzy 100 gel


----------



## sethro02

round 4 fixed aftermath


----------



## sethro02

round 4 fixed aftermath 2,bent muzzy blade

__
Sensitive content, not recommended for those under 18
Show Content


----------



## Cannonball08

Good Stuff! Thanks for your time and effort. Have the VPA heads been tested yet??


----------



## sethro02

triton blade, side by side good/broken blade


----------



## sethro02

No sir,,,vpa's have been shipped i think...just waiting on em'


----------



## qmb9015

did you test the braxe and i missed it


----------



## sethro02

Sorry for just a short test guys....thought i would try to throw in something before the weekend is up....these heads i have and are still to get tested:
meat seeker 3 blade 1.5''
meat seeker 3 blade 2"
rage titanium extreme 2.3"
silverflame
braxe
snuffer ss


----------



## sethro02

if anyone has :

schwaker, 100 grain
slick trick standard, 100 grain

please pm me
otherwise i will be buying them this week


----------



## Michael Myers

sethro02 said:


> triton blade, side by side good/broken blade
> View attachment 1412215


Great Stuff,So i guess you dont want the 100 Gr 3 Blade Muzzy,I Found up at the Camp today,I Have another Head,I Will throw in with the Rage 2 Blade,On there way tommorow,Keep up the Great work,I am impressed with the Muzzy 100 Gr Old school.Grizz


----------



## Michael Myers

sethro02 said:


> if anyone has :
> 
> schwaker, 100 grain
> slick trick standard, 100 grain
> 
> please pm me
> otherwise i will be buying them this week


All i have is st Mags,I Checked today.Grizz


----------



## ihuntforchrst

the fact that the wac 'em broke doesn't surprise me too much. the blades are barely held in. I had one blade break off on a shoulder hit, after it destroyed the deer's heart and still made a complete pass through. 

Slick tricks are tough, and muzzy's have been around for a reason.

love this thread


----------



## sethro02

Grizzman you can send what you want...i think alot of people are waiting on the rage


----------



## sethro02

Thanks guys for your support


----------



## Michael Myers

sethro02 said:


> Grizzman you can send what you want...i think alot of people are waiting on the rage


I Hope it passes,Lol..Actually i dont care,I am switching to a 125 Fixed...But i do like the Rage..I Have this other head,I Bought 2 Years ago for Turkey huntin,Never used them but cant remember what there called,I Will post pic to see,I Think its some sort of Crimson Talon,But i aint sure,Its a Dust collector,Might as well putit through some plywood,LolGrizz


----------



## 0nepin

sethro02 said:


> round 4 fixed aftermath 2,bent muzzy blade
> View attachment 1412214


Are you teasing me with ole Ray Charles in this pic.haha .looking like a beast just sitting there ready to cut the gel in half.


----------



## boneheadoutdoor

This thread really is awesome!


----------



## kdog23

sethro02 said:


> Muzzy 100 test results:
> 3.75" total cut surface
> 
> penetration- 10
> durability- 4 (only 1 blade was slightly bent at the end, dont get angry)
> dependability- 5
> sharp before- 4
> sharp after- 3
> flight- 5
> total score- 31 out of 35 ( total penetration, 12")
> View attachment 1412200


Looks like out of my spitfires, montecs and muzzys the muzzys are cheapest and most reliable. Good to know. Might spring for some ulmers and shuttle Ts at some point based on how this has been stacking!

Keep up the great work!


----------



## Michael Myers

Here is the Unknown Broadhead???Anybody...


----------



## sethro02

Onepin I knew u would chime in on that...it will be in next test I promise!


----------



## 0nepin

sethro02 said:


> Onepin I knew u would chime in on that...it will be in next test I promise!


Haha no rush .ole Ray sure is looking pretty.


----------



## deanzr2

Viper Venom.



GrizzlyMan1980 said:


> Here is the Unknown Broadhead???Anybody...


----------



## HAPPY DAD

Seth how does the 3 blade triton and muzzy have more total cutting surface but 1 less blade?

You may have said but I wouldn't know where to look


----------



## Mike318

do i have to search through all 45 pages to see results?


----------



## Bruce 2

Whats up for sale at this point?......great thread.


----------



## qmb9015

depends what broadhead results you looking for


----------



## sethro02

muzzy blades and triton blades are longer...i measure the portion of each blade doing the cutting add them together...also add in the trocar tip width, which is wider than the st mag.


----------



## sethro02

before this test their were some updated numbers a few pages back...i'll look


----------



## sethro02

For sale:
ramcats $25 tyd
killzones $20 tyd
nap bloodrunner 2 blade $25tyd


----------



## 0nepin

Ray charles is going to eat so much gelatin You mite mistake him for bill Cosby .Lol got to eat the pudding!!!!


----------



## sethro02

page 35 for results,,,before this current test


----------



## sethro02

haha...im making gel now


----------



## Michael Myers

0nepin said:


> Ray charles is going to eat so much gelatin You mite mistake him for bill Cosby .Lol


Gonna eat more then Heathcliff Huxtable....Never...


----------



## sethro02

Sorry for just a short test guys....thought i would try to throw in something before the weekend is up....these heads i have and are still to get tested:
meat seeker 3 blade 1.5''
meat seeker 3 blade 2"
rage titanium extreme 2.3"
silverflame
braxe
snuffer ss 


Need to add the redhead gator, i forgot to mention it, sorrry!


----------



## manboy

sethro02 said:


> if anyone has :
> 
> schwaker, 100 grain
> slick trick standard, 100 grain
> 
> please pm me
> otherwise i will be buying them this week


 i have 125 grain swhackers......and 100grain INVERTER....2 blades


----------



## sethro02

pm sent manboy


----------



## Acts 10:13

Super surprised the Slick Trick Mag got so little penetration. But I'll hold out for the ST Standard test...seeing how that's what's in my quiver


----------



## Gypsy Rover

Would love to see razor tricks. If you have PayPal will donate to help cost. Reason I was a skiing about them is my daughter uses them in a 37lb bow. Killed a 9pt last year with them...just didn't pass all the way through...this year she is pulling 42lbs. She is only 11 but is on here as well as puppiesrock0527.


----------



## sethro02

i do have paypal and gladly accept donations although you should not feel obligated to do so...let me check pro shops for them....my paypal is [email protected]


----------



## seiowabow

Acts 10:13 said:


> Super surprised the Slick Trick Mag got so little penetration. But I'll hold out for the ST Standard test...seeing how that's what's in my quiver


I wasn't too suprised. I think the four blades and the overall width affected the penetration. They rip nasty holes though!

Sent from my DROID4 using Tapatalk 2


----------



## 0nepin

seiowabow said:


> I wasn't too suprised. I think the four blades and the overall width affected the penetration. They rip nasty holes though!
> 
> Sent from my DROID4 using Tapatalk 2


Yes they do.


----------



## Mig

were you going to try the QAD exodus heads? Non-barbed version since most states will allow it that one. Can't you edit your first post of this thread with the results so everyone can easily see them.


----------



## 12RingKing

Are you waiting on some 1 3/4 Grims?

I read all the pages of this thread tonight and I must say the results are interesting for sure. SOme of the heads that do well in other tests are doing poorly here.

Guys should remember, it's hard to measure what will happen in the field with this sort of test. Seth's just giving you a baseline to make your decisions.

It'd be interesting if you could find a way to measure "blood trail" with splatter or something. I think that's where the large diameter mechanicals would prevail.

Kinda upset the Grims did poor in your test, but it's not stopping me from using them this season. Really impressed with your test so far! Keep it up


----------



## matt3

Quick question about the cutting surface. You said you were measuring the cutting surface of the blades length wise but not width wise correct? Meaning that if the blade is 2 inches long but only extends from the shaft .5 inches it would measure 2 not .5? So the shorter blades that extend further from the shaft, don't get as high of a score correct?

Hope that makes sense lol. And this is just for clarification for me. Not saying you should score differently just so i understand that part of it. 

Thanks again for all your hard work.
Matt


----------



## HC Knives

The plot thickens..


----------



## Bowhuntr64

Acts 10:13 said:


> Super surprised the Slick Trick Mag got so little penetration. But I'll hold out for the ST Standard test...seeing how that's what's in my quiver


The Mags have a 1 1/8" diameter cut with four blades, or a total cut of 2.5". Of course they will penetrate less than a three blade head of 1 1/8" cutting diameter. I am impressed that they penetrated as well as they did! 

If we were recording "Total Cut Surface" by multiplying each blade's diameter times the number of blades, these differences would be more apparent, and a more accurate overall score and ranking would be achieved. Just my opinion. I am super grateful for all of Seth's work!


----------



## NoDeerInIowa

Just finished reading 136 pages on my phone. Great test Seth. If you still need an old school rage 2 blade, send me a pm, and I will send one your way.

Sent from my PC36100 using Tapatalk 2


----------



## sethro02

I have nobody sending me non barbdd exodus or 1 3/4 grims


----------



## sethro02

On the cut surface for example..yes if you measure across from tip to tip its an 1 1/8 times two....but I am measuring the actual amount of blade that is outside tje ferrulule that is cutting..so with this particular head each one is 3/4" long times 4 blades plus the width of tip...sorry. I know some people dont agree but im doing it as accurately as I can


----------



## Olink

sethro02 said:


> On the cut surface for example..yes if you measure across from tip to tip its an 1 1/8 times two....but I am measuring the actual amount of blade that is outside tje ferrulule that is cutting..so with this particular head each one is 3/4" long times 4 blades plus the width of tip...sorry. I know some people dont agree but im doing it as accurately as I can


This is an irrelevant measurement, and invalidates any results IF used for ranking criteria. Its the amount of cut that is revelant.


----------



## corey006

I was going to use 100gr Ulmer Edge this year, and did for Bear.....

*BUT*,

I switched to a heavier spined arrow with FOBs and my arrows are flying so sweet with 125gr S.T Mags that I don't want to change anything.

I need the extra weight upfront to give me some good FOC so 100gr. heads are out.

*I need a 125gr Ulmer Edge.*

p.s

Seth your tests SUCK....:wink:

NOW I have to get some 125gr Ulmer Edge because the penetrate better than my Slick Tricks.


----------



## sethro02

Their will be a 125 available..

Measuring of cut has nothi.g to do with score


----------



## Ned250

Here's the updated results including last night's tests - https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AgJEvQwzfDRZdGxzdC15R0JIZDJGQ1J4bVpGV1pTWHc

Looks like the links in the spreadsheet got out of whack, so I pulled them. I'll try to get them fixed some time this week.


----------



## sethro02

Good job...thanks for your time!


----------



## Michael Myers

NoDeerInIowa said:


> Just finished reading 136 pages on my phone. Great test Seth. If you still need an old school rage 2 blade, send me a pm, and I will send one your way.
> 
> Sent from my PC36100 using Tapatalk 2


I Sent it out this Morning...Grizz


----------



## ORROSS334

Hey Seth, hit me your address and I will get a f15 out for testing....


----------



## sethro02

Thx grizz...


Pm's answered


----------



## Ned250

Ned250 said:


> Here's the updated results including last night's tests - https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AgJEvQwzfDRZdGxzdC15R0JIZDJGQ1J4bVpGV1pTWHc
> 
> Looks like the links in the spreadsheet got out of whack, so I pulled them. I'll try to get them fixed some time this week.


For those not familiar with spreadsheets... You can click the arrows in the various column headings to filter the data. So you can filter column C to see just fixed heads or mechanicals or filter on column D to filter by Manufacturer.


----------



## E.J.

Ned250 said:


> Here's the updated results including last night's tests - https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AgJEvQwzfDRZdGxzdC15R0JIZDJGQ1J4bVpGV1pTWHc
> 
> Looks like the links in the spreadsheet got out of whack, so I pulled them. I'll try to get them fixed some time this week.


Wow...thanks! Extremely helpful!


----------



## sethro02

Pm's answered...next round will be mechanicals
1. Rage titanium extreme
2. Redhead gator
3. Tr meat seeker 3 blade 1.5"
4. Tr meat seeker 3 blade 2"


----------



## Michael Myers

sethro02 said:


> Thx grizz...
> 
> 
> Pm's answered


Sent a Rage 2 Blade-100 Gr,A 100 Gr Viper Venom and an Older head...Sattelite 140? Told me a Week...Grizz


----------



## Super 91

Magnus Stinger Buzzcut 100 grain headed your way today Seth. Thanks for these awesome tests! I know some people don't like it that their head did not do as well as they hoped, but like you said, "Any of these heads will kill". Showing what they will do when Murphy shows up is really helpful. I always though the design of the blades of the Shuttle T's was a little odd and wondered about penetration, now I got some headed my way! And I knew how well RamCats and Phat heads did, and have them in my archery box.

But it's tests like these that sure help ease your mind, and having confidence in your equipment means the world. Again, 2 thumbs up for all your hard work.


----------



## sethro02

Hey I appreciate your interest...glad I can help


----------



## goathollow

Olink said:


> This is an irrelevant measurement, and invalidates any results IF used for ranking criteria. Its the amount of cut that is revelant.


Those are rather harsh words to be using to express one's opinion. It might be better to understand why its being done the way it is (cutting surface vs diameter) before forming and expressing a negative opinion.

I have not asked why it is being done this way, but in my mind cutting surface does matter. If not, then (IMO) a _swipe_ with a 1.5" pocket knife and a 10 in bowie knife (of equal sharpness and force) would have the same result. Likewise, a broadhead is neither boring a hole nor traveling on perfectly linear path (they can/do change directions inside the animal) which IMO brings relevancy to cutting surface. More important that what I think is the fact that the testing is being done without bias and is completely consistent. That is what validates the testing....IMO.

Now, with that said, if you think cutting diameter should be factored in, there is a spreadsheet attached to a post just a few prior to this one that contains the results of all the heads tested. I believe that Seth would be fine with you inserting the cutting diameter for your personal use if you so choose.


----------



## goathollow

Ned250 said:


> For those not familiar with spreadsheets... You can click the arrows in the various column headings to filter the data. So you can filter column C to see just fixed heads or mechanicals or filter on column D to filter by Manufacturer.


Great work Ned...super helpful! Do you object if I copy the spreadsheet and send it to a few buddies who don't frequent AT?


----------



## sethro02

Thanks goat hollow...we could put diameter on there I would only want me or ned doing the changes so it doesnt get cr&zy...but we are for sure keeping cutting surface numbers


----------



## goathollow

sethro02 said:


> Thanks goat hollow...we could put diameter on there I would only want me or ned doing the changes so it doesnt get cr&zy...but we are for sure keeping cutting surface numbers


You are welcome!! You're doing a heck of a job with this and have put a great deal of thought in to the methodology (not to mention time, $$ and effort) and it is appreciated.

I wasn't suggesting that anyone go in and change the spreadsheet from what Ned has done. But it isn't hard to copy it to one's own computer and make changes/addtions for personal use. I agree it would quickly run amok if folks started fiddling with numbers.

Also sent you a PM.


----------



## flintwood

I'm a big fan of the Phatheads, I'm not surprised they did well in the test. Have or will the Carbon Express F15 fixed blades been tested yet? I've been thinking about trying those for the last year or so.


----------



## ORROSS334

Will be shipping a f15 tomorrow for the test....


----------



## sethro02

Broadheads that are coming..
Vpa
Solid
Original 2 blade rage
Magnus buzzcut
Slick trick standard

A couple more too but these are definately being asked about


----------



## sethro02

F15 as well


----------



## TauntoHawk

sethro02 said:


> ''Seth in your own opinion how did the Exodus vs Shuttle T stack up?''
> 
> personally i thought it was farely close enethough the shuttle T went in farther, i think the determining factor with the shuttle T is how quiet!!!its crazy!!!!you hear nothing!!!!


These were the two I was most interested in because they were my top two to try last year after i was disappointed in the performace of Montecs in several areas. I went with the Exodus because I had heard the blades weren't as sharp and the curve makes them very hard to sharpen on the T's. I have been absolutely pleased with the Exodus through my limited trails. they flew great, acutally they flew better and quieter than some popular expandables I was testing at the same time. They did a great job on the one deer I shot with them but it was a heart shot so like many have said a field point would have done the job with that shot placement. Still I might have to try the shuttle T here this year with the sharper blades and impressive results. I have full field confidence in the Exodus but unlike some I have no problems when another head beats my own fair and square. I'm thinking the slightly wider cut and more aggressive blade angle of the Exodus held it back from keeping up on penetration but probably made a bigger hole and wound channel.

Did the Exodus make it through the back peice of plywood at all or did it stop at the back of the Gel??

Also interested in the gravedigger and Ulmar but really looking for that ultimate fixed head I can depend on for years.


----------



## mikajay

Great stuff.Big thank you Seth from across the pond.

r.mika


----------



## sethro02

The exodus stuck in backside wood. I think you are correct about blade angle...also what I noticed about the ramcat not that this is important but it hit the hardest...it was so loud when it hit...hits like a ram!


----------



## goathollow

TauntoHawk said:


> These were the two I was most interested in because they were my top two to try last year after i was disappointed in the performace of Montecs in several areas. I went with the Exodus because I had heard the blades weren't as sharp and the curves make them very hard to sharpen on the T's I have been absolutely pleased with the Exodus through my limited trails. they flew great, acutally they flew better and quieter than some popular expandables I was testing at the same time. They did a great job on the one deer I shot with them but it was a heart shot so like many have said a field point would have done the job with that shot placement. Still I might have to try the shuttle T here this year with the sharper blades and impressive results. I have full field confidence in the Exodus but unlike some I have no problems when another head beats my own fair and square. I'm thinking the slightly wider cut and more aggressive blade angle of the Exodus held it back from keeping up on penetration but probably made a bigger hole and wound channel.
> 
> Did the Exodus make it through the back peice of plywood at all or did it stop at the back of the Gel??
> 
> Also interested in the gravedigger and Ulmar but really looking for that ultimate fixed head I can depend on for years.


Might you be able to put an edge on them with a round ceramic stick? Just thinkin out loud here.


----------



## Ned250

goathollow said:


> Great work Ned...super helpful! Do you object if I copy the spreadsheet and send it to a few buddies who don't frequent AT?


Go for it!


----------



## Ned250

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AgJEvQwzfDRZdGxzdC15R0JIZDJGQ1J4bVpGV1pTWHc

Looks like some things were getting changed on the spreadsheet, so I've removed edit rights. If there's a change you want to be made, please PM me.


----------



## mdnabors

sethro02 said:


> I have nobody sending me non barbdd exodus or 1 3/4 grims


I'll send you a 1 3/4" Razortip if you want. May even throw in a new Exodus swept version. :wink: Is someone sending Grizz Trick 2's?


----------



## sethro02

Just got grizztrick today...sure ill test another reaper


----------



## sethro02

Tonights lineup is looking like a good one


----------



## Michael Myers

Since i am gonna be Using my 2008 X-Force Ss for Bear hunting this Fall,I am gonna be shooting CF Radial weave Stl hunter 300's(29") tipped with 125 Gr Fixed heads.Shooting 61 Lbs,Still not sure which Head to buy and Bear hunt with...All this Testing is Awesome and makes me want to buy a Lot of Different Brands...Grizz


----------



## Ou224

Outstanding thread Seth. Thank you for sharing your work with the AT nation. One thing I learned from your tests is that I am glad I stocked up on shuttle T's a few months ago. I am sure the price went up after your pic of the fletching buried in the first layer of your target. I switched from meatseakers to shuttles so I hope they don't do as well... Lol

I read every post and was pleased that about 90% of the comments were positive. Can't please everyone all the time but i for one see your test as fare.


----------



## sethro02

Thanks guys...hey grizzman I just built my perfect arrow and dont know what im using either! Easton injexion 330 with vap insert/outsert! Who needs deep six!?


----------



## mdnabors

sethro02 said:


> Thanks guys...hey grizzman I just built my perfect arrow and dont know what im using either! Easton injexion 330 with vap insert/outsert! Who needs deep six!?


Nice. I just had some VAP 300's built with SS 90gr outserts Coming in around 475gr or so. They hit HARD with about 15%FOC!


----------



## Make It Happen

Okay so you def have a BP Gator on hand it seems, cause I might have one in the garage left over. I shot a doe with one and had great results, lil high but perfect shot and dead on the spot. Well maybe not dead but was down for the count. I have the hellrazors which im thinking about using but I did go 2/2 with the Gators and for the price when on sale I think its a great deal. Esp for people on a budget like myself. So pretty sure I have a gator, hellrazor I would like to retain cause i have the perfect amount for getting thru a season. But if needed send me a pm. 

Very, very excited to see how the Gator does as the Hellrazor is so similar to the Montec's. I used the 2 blade Rages on deer with sub par results compared to the Gator, but never had a pass through on either. Gators were much sharper then the Rages & cheaper. Deer I shot with the Hellrazor jumped like 15 feet and was like what just happened. Arrow burried in the ground, I just like more of a cut myself.


Thank you for taking the time to post, my gf would have me hanging on the wall by now. I think she applied for a special out of season permit for me. haha Good day guys!


----------



## 0nepin

sethro02 said:


> Pm's answered...next round will be mechanicals
> 1. Rage titanium extreme
> 2. Redhead gator
> 3. Tr meat seeker 3 blade 1.5"
> 4. Tr meat seeker 3 blade 2"


Is the #1 the Ray CHarles edition .lol


----------



## evasiveone

sethro02 said:


> Thanks goat hollow...we could put diameter on there I would only want me or ned doing the changes so it doesnt get cr&zy...but we are for sure keeping cutting surface numbers


That would be great if the cutting diameter and number of blades was also on the spreadsheet also. It is hard to remember what each broadheads cutting diameter is. 

Someone could then look at the spreadsheet and have all the information they needed to make a decision for themselves based on what they feel is important to them.


----------



## Ned250

evasiveone said:


> That would be great if the cutting diameter and number of blades was also on the spreadsheet also. It is hard to remember what each broadheads cutting diameter is.
> 
> Someone could then look at the spreadsheet and have all the information they needed to make a decision for themselves based on what they feel is important to them.


I know Seth started putting the cutting dia on some of the results. I'll work through this and get the spreadsheet updated and circle back with Seth with anything I missed.


----------



## Michael Myers

sethro02 said:


> Thanks guys...hey grizzman I just built my perfect arrow and dont know what im using either! Easton injexion 330 with vap insert/outsert! Who needs deep six!?


Nice,I Will be deer hunting with my Axe 6 ,Easton Axis N-Fused 400's tipped with 125 Gr Fixed....Not sureYet,It will be the Same head,I Buy for Bearhunting,I Have 2 Baits up on different properties,I Have a Big Boar pushing 400 Lbs already hitting it and a few smaller boars,Also have a Sow and 2 Cubs at my camp hitting my bait,She has been there for 5-6 Years,Shes a Big Sow,Cubs are so cute..I Want one as a Pet,Lol.Grizz


----------



## sethro02

Here we go!!!!!!!!!! first off thanks to aaron (goathollow) he is stopping by to help...maybe get through a few more tonight!!!

Round 5 Fixed heads!!!








1. VPA vented 100 grain
2. St Grizztrick
3. Braxe
4. Silverflame
5 Magnus snuffer SS


----------



## sethro02

Round 7 Mechanicals!!!!!!
1. Rage Titanium RC
2. Redhead Gator
3.trophy ridge meat seeker 3 blade 1.5"
4. trophy ridge meat seeker 3 blade 2"


----------



## pass-thru prod.

I just found this today at lunch. I didnt do shif for the rest of the day. just finished. very cool


----------



## sethro02

haha...just found it? its front page 24/7?! j/k


----------



## Michael Myers

sethro02 said:


> Round 7 Mechanicals!!!!!!
> 1. Rage Titanium RC
> 2. Redhead Gator
> 3.trophy ridge meat seeker 3 blade 1.5"
> 4. trophy ridge meat seeker 3 blade 2"
> View attachment 1413029


I Think Ray Charles is gonna do very well.


----------



## sethro02

im gonna be mad if it ruins one whole gel....we may not get through all the mechanicals!!!!


----------



## axeforce6

from the results ive seen the Braxe is a bad dude... Can't wait


----------



## qmb9015

axeforce6 said:


> from the results ive seen the Braxe is a bad dude... Can't wait


 ive watched a lot of videos on them and everyshot was either a pass through or almost to the fletching so since i got my hands on a few so i figured i would send him one to see how they hold up


----------



## Porkrind

Wish they would bring back the Braxe


----------



## qmb9015

Porkrind said:


> Wish they would bring back the Braxe


they are on there site and still for sale so i think you could order them straight from the company


----------



## IowaAssassin

Looks like a first gen. Grizz Trick. The new ferrule on the Grizz Trick 2 is different. Not sure if there will be a noticeable difference. Looking forward to the test. Appreciate the time and effort.


----------



## pass-thru prod.

sethro02 said:


> haha...just found it? its front page 24/7?! j/k


 I do very little reading on BH I like what I use. but this is cool


----------



## 4x4buck

Alot of good broadheads to pick from out there. I used a grave digger last year on my elk hunt and i shot my bull at 62 yds and he piled up 30 yds from where i shot him. The amount of damage the grave digger did was more than i had ever seen with any other head ive used.


----------



## seiowabow

IowaAssassin said:


> Looks like a first gen. Grizz Trick. The new ferrule on the Grizz Trick 2 is different. Not sure if there will be a noticeable difference. Looking forward to the test. Appreciate the time and effort.


It is the original grizz. 

Sent from my DROID4 using Tapatalk 2


----------



## Michael Myers

4x4buck said:


> Alot of good broadheads to pick from out there. I used a grave digger last year on my elk hunt and i shot my bull at 62 yds and he piled up 30 yds from where i shot him. The amount of damage the grave digger did was more than i had ever seen with any other head ive used.
> View attachment 1413111


Great Bull,What type and How heavy of an Arrow?I Want to buy Grave Diggers but i want to shoot 125 Gr Heads,Grizz


----------



## axeforce6

qmb9015 said:


> ive watched a lot of videos on them and everyshot was either a pass through or almost to the fletching so since i got my hands on a few so i figured i would send him one to see how they hold up


Thanks. I'm glad someone did. I'm very interested in them!


----------



## sethro02

guys shooting is done...did alot of heads thanks to aaron (goathollow) be patient getting em loaded up


----------



## sethro02

VPA vented 100 grain test results!!
3.75" tota cut surface

penetration- 10
durability- 5
dependability- 5
sharp before- 5
sharp after-5 !!!!!! yes i just said 5
flight- 5
total score- 35 !!! (total penetration, 11")


----------



## sethro02

vpa


----------



## sethro02

slick trick grizztrick standard test results:
3.46" total cut surface

penetration- 10
durability- 5
dependability- 5
sharp before- 5
sharp after- 4
flight- 5
total score- 34 out of 35!! (total penetration, 10")


----------



## sethro02

grizz


----------



## sethro02

grizz


----------



## sethro02

braxe test results:
2.12" total cut surface

penetration- 8
durability- 5
dependability- 5
sharp before- 4
sharp after- 3
flight-5
total score- 30 out of 35 ( total penetration, 8")


----------



## sethro02

braxe


----------



## sethro02

sorry guys braxe gel pic isnt uploading....working on it


----------



## sethro02

silverflame test results:
3" total cut surface

penetration- 8
durability- 5
dependability- 5
sharp before- 5
sharp after- 4
flight- 5
total score- 32 out of 35 (total penetration, 8")


----------



## sethro02

silverflame


----------



## sethro02

silverflame


----------



## TimmyZ7

Like I've said many times, the Grizz Trick is one of the best Whitetail fixed heads out there and can hold its own in carnage against many mechanicals! If you could add the intestines hanging out the exit side of the gel it would be more realistic as I have experienced!:wink:


----------



## sethro02

magnus snuffer ss test results:
4.5" total cut surface

penetration- 8
durability- 5
dependability- 5
sharp before- 4
sharp after- 4
flight- 5
total score- 31 out of 35 (total penetration, 8")


----------



## sethro02

snuffer ss

__
Sensitive content, not recommended for those under 18
Show Content


----------



## sethro02

snuffer ss


----------



## sethro02

Rage Titanium Extreme RC test results:
3.37" total cut surface

penetration- 7
durability- 0 Fail
dependability- 4 (one blade not all the way open at impact)
sharp before- 5
sharp after- 5
flight- 5
total score - 25 out of 35 ( total penetration, 7") this head should have got extra points for sparks!!! j/k


----------



## sethro02

titanium extreme


----------



## sethro02

titanium extreme


----------



## sethro02

^^^^ entrance


----------



## sethro02

titanium extreme, exit!!!:mg:


----------



## sethro02

sorry sorry ,,titanium extreme exit :mg:


----------



## seiowabow

TimmyZ7 said:


> Like I've said many times, the Grizz Trick is one of the best Whitetail fixed heads out there and can hold its own in carnage against many mechanicals! If you could add the intestines hanging out the exit side of the gel it would be more realistic as I have experienced!:wink:


And it flies great too. What more can you ask for?

Sent from my DROID4 using Tapatalk 2


----------



## sethro02

Redhead Gator test results:
2.62" total cut surface

penetration- 8
durability- 5
dependability- 1 ( almost open at impact,,,closed through gel!)
sharp before- 5
sharp after- 4
flight- 5
total score- 28 out of 35 ( total penetration, 8")


----------



## 0nepin

sethro02 said:


> titanium extreme
> View attachment 1413194


Look ole Ray Charles!!!!


----------



## sethro02

gator


----------



## sethro02

gator entrance


----------



## 0nepin

sethro02 said:


> sorry sorry ,,titanium extreme exit :mg:
> View attachment 1413198


That what I wanted to see!!!!!!


----------



## sethro02

gator exit


----------



## sethro02

that exit from the gator is less than an inch...it looks bigger because i had to pull the gel to see it...

the entrance was a little bigger than an inch...had to pull it apart as well...the wound channel was actually about 1/2" in portions of the channel.


----------



## sethro02

TR Meat Seeker 3 blade 1.5" test results:
2.87" total cut surface

penetration- 9
durability- 5
dependability- 3 (opened on impact then closed through gel....)
sharp before- 5
sharp after- 4
flight- 5
total score- 31 out of 35 (total penetration, 9")


----------



## sethro02

meat seeker 1.5
entrance


----------



## sethro02

meat seeker exit
View attachment 1413218


----------



## sethro02

Trophy ridge Meat seeker 3 blade 2" test results:
4" total cut surface

penetration- 7
durability- 5
dependability- 4
sharp before- 5
sharp after- 4
flight- 5
total score- 30 out of 35 (total penetration, 7" )
View attachment 1413220


----------



## qmb9015

is it just me or are the last 2 attachments not working


----------



## sethro02

meat seeker 2" entrance
View attachment 1413226


----------



## tack09

Wow Seth, the gator is my go to head. I don't believe it performed so poorly. You must have biased the results. I am going to start my own thread.


sethro02 said:


> gator exit
> View attachment 1413204


----------



## Agustus

I have been waiting to see how the grizztrick and the vpa head would both do. I carry both in my quiver. Love to see the results for those 2 heads!

Thanks Seth for taking the time


----------



## sethro02

meat seeker 2'' exit
View attachment 1413232


----------



## 0nepin

sethro02 said:


> titanium extreme
> View attachment 1413194


I think I can deal with just a sliver!!!


----------



## sethro02

which 2 attachments arent working? what head?


----------



## sethro02

yes it was a big sliver


----------



## tack09

Sorry Seth, I cant help myself after reading what is going on with (someone else).


----------



## FULLATTACK

magnus stigger please!


----------



## rpearce750

meat seeker attachments are not working for me either


----------



## qmb9015

sethro02 said:


> which 2 attachments arent working? what head?


Post #'s 1452 1453 1455 1458


----------



## tanneryrat

post #1452 1.5" Meat seeker and all of the 2" meat seeker aren't visible


----------



## tanneryrat

ahh gmb, you beat me to it lol


----------



## sethro02

sorry i'll try it again


----------



## tanneryrat

Seth, did the 2" meat seeker close through the gel like the 1.5"? Thanks for testing these, along with all the others of course. I wondered how they would stack up. I've had good luck with the 1.5's but haven't hunted with the 2" yet.


----------



## sethro02

does this work?
seeker 1.5" exit


----------



## sethro02

yes it closed up...could be my setup,,,but its 70lbs ke i would think that is enough power to push them through to keep them open


----------



## qmb9015

yea that last one showed up


----------



## sethro02

meeat seaker 2" repost


----------



## bowtechJDW

Sorry I just started reading this thread. Did you test ?And would you know what page it was posted on?


----------



## sethro02

meat seeker 2" repost


----------



## tanneryrat

Yeah the pic worked. I would think 70lbs would be plenty but maybe just the way the head operates, especially seeing both did it.


----------



## bowtechJDW

bowtechJDW said:


> Sorry I just started reading this thread. Did you test ?And would you know what page it was posted on?


Test the phathead sorry


----------



## sethro02

meat seeker 2" repost


----------



## sethro02

true tanneryrat...i think it likes alotttt of friction!


----------



## sethro02

yes phathead was first round of fixed blades....should be within the first 5 pages


----------



## sethro02

guys i'll probably take a few days off. im out of broadheads, waiting for more to get here..Thanks to Aaron (goathollow) for helping out with pictures, etc. tonight.


----------



## blind squirrel

Surprised the Gator didn't do better... i have killed a few deer with them (back when they were made by Rocky Mountain) and they were pretty devastating. Seems like the Ulmer Edge design is similar to the Gator with the advantage of having the blades locked open. Nice!


----------



## bowtechJDW

sethro02 said:


> yes phathead was first round of fixed blades....should be within the first 5 pages


Thanks


----------



## evasiveone

bowtechJDW said:


> Test the phathead sorry


One of the first heads tested and one of the top ranked ones so far.
Spreadsheet.https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AgJEvQwzfDRZdGxzdC15R0JIZDJGQ1J4bVpGV1pTWHc#gid=0


----------



## E.J.

Love the testing, but I personally feel like we our doing ourselves a diservice if you/we dont take into account the poor performance of some of these bh closed going through the gel. Scoring a bh 31 out of 35 actually looks decent to me but I would never use it knowing that there is a chance it may not do its job going through an animal. Some may read just the final numbers and think that particular bh seems up to par....

Anyway, not complaining one bit. I just want to bring it up for other at'ers to comment on. I can only suggest making dependability a 1?? As usual, tremendous work seth and company! Grave diggers and grizz tricks already in the quiver.


----------



## rpearce750

great job!!!!


----------



## qmb9015

hey seth could you post a different picture of the braxe exit hole since you posted the same picture twice

also thanks for the great job you are doing and thanks to everyone that sent heads in


----------



## 0nepin

sethro02 said:


> sorry sorry ,,titanium extreme exit :mg:
> View attachment 1413198


That's all they do? Dang I have already built 8 more.haha jk.can't for deer season now!!!


----------



## sethro02

i do agree with you on dependability...but as i have mentioned you have to look at all the scores...yes it scored a little higher but you have to look at all the numbers...im trying to be fair...i dont think their is anyway of scoring this dependability and pleasing everyone... i lose sleep over the dependability scores!!! j/k....not really


----------



## sethro02

working on braxe gel pic,,not working


----------



## Michael Myers

0nepin said:


> That's all they do? Dang I have already built 8 more.haha jk.can't for deer season now!!!


Lol,I am off to Start a Rage There the Best.. thread...Cause i love them the best...


----------



## sethro02

email me at [email protected], if you want braxe gel pic. thanks


----------



## qmb9015

sethro02 said:


> working on braxe gel pic,,not working


thanks if it wont let you upload it on here you can upload it to tinypic.com and then paste the image code on here


----------



## tanneryrat

I don't like the idea that the meat seekers closed up like that but it's all part of the testing. It is what it is, and I think it seth is doing an incredible job. I've taken a quite a few deer with the 1.5" since they came out. I know for sure there will be a few in the quiver this fall, and I'm also planning on trying the Ulmer edges also.


----------



## 0nepin

sethro02 said:


> sorry sorry ,,titanium extreme exit :mg:
> View attachment 1413198


25 ? Is that how many feet you predict the deer to run befor completely bleeding out? JK great job Seth.


----------



## basnbuks

Was the titanium extreme a frankenhead?


Sent across the ocean in a beer bottle


----------



## nolimitarchery

Grizzlyman1980,

I just talked with 4X4buck and he was shooting Epic 340's total grain weight 430 on his elk hunt with the Grave Digger.


----------



## 0nepin

basnbuks said:


> Was the titanium extreme a frankenhead?
> 
> 
> Sent across the ocean in a beer bottle


Yes and it's name is the Ray Charles


----------



## Michael Myers

nolimitarchery said:


> Grizzlyman1980,
> 
> I just talked with 4X4buck and he was shooting Epic 340's total grain weight 430 on his elk hunt with the Grave Digger.


Nice,i think were headin to Northern Ontario for a Moose hunt Mid-September,I am shooting Easton Axis N-Fused 400's Cut at 29" Shootin 100 Gr heads but want to make the Switch to 125 Gr heads,But...I Really like the Grave Digger,I am not even sure which bow i will be taking on the Hunt,Prolly my Axe 6 but not Sure,I am shootin Radial Weave 300's from my Ss and with my Gx,I am not sure yet,Its on its way here.Thanks for the Heads up on the Arrows and Weight,Grizz


----------



## Michael Myers

0nepin said:


> Yes and it's name is the Ray Charles


What a Great Entrance and Exit Channel,I Dont care if it Survives or Not after i kill an animal with it.


----------



## sethro02

Yes that ray charles was crazy...lets not forget about the perfect score broadhead...thanks vpa for the donation...one piece machined steel is solid!


----------



## Michael Myers

sethro02 said:


> Yes that ray charles was crazy...lets not forget about the perfect score broadhead...thanks vpa for the donation...one piece machined steel is solid!


Vpa seems like a Great head for Sure..I am impressed with it,No doubt.Grizz


----------



## Polkat9000

RAZOR DOBBS steele force 150 black death hands down will drop ANYTHING IT HITS


----------



## ORROSS334

Anyone have a Pheonix from Red Feather Archery to send in......really want to see how that single bevel does


----------



## qmb9015

here is the braxe gel pic


----------



## nolimitarchery

Grizzlyman1980,

I will be shooting the Victory VAP's 300's total grain weight 416 on my elk hunt this year. 4X4bucks brother has the same elk tag i have and he will be shooting the same set up. With the carnage that the Grave Digger did on the gel combined with the over all performance it scored why would you want to shoot anything else. Ok my opinion might be a little biased but thats just me:wink:


----------



## Laplacesdemon

sethro02 said:


> i do agree with you on dependability...but as i have mentioned you have to look at all the scores...yes it scored a little higher but you have to look at all the numbers...im trying to be fair...i dont think their is anyway of scoring this dependability and pleasing everyone... i lose sleep over the dependability scores!!! j/k....not really


The Swhacker (and similar heads such as the Hypershocks) will present a scoring challenge with respect to what you define as "dependability"...based on how you have been applying that term so far, I suspect you would be inclined to deduct points because the Swhacker does not cut its maximum size on the entry hole. However, it is specifically designed and marketed not to do so. Rather, it is intended to use one set of smaller wing/activator blades for the entrance hole and then the larger blades for the remainder of the cut. Some would argue that it should still lose points for having a small entrance hole, since a larger one would be better, all else being equal. However, the standard is called "dependabilty" not "entry hole size" and a head shouldn't lose dependability points if it performs exactly as the manufacturer intended and claimed. If we are using "dependability" as a proxy for "entry hole size" (rather than simply a rating of performing as designed) then this shouldn't score a 5:

View attachment 1413178


...while this scores a 4:

View attachment 1413194


Anyway, great job on the testing, just pointing out some of the complexities of fashioning any sort of fair scoring system...and I do so not as a criticism but rather out of respect for the enormous challenge you face in presenting your data in a useful and unbiased manner. (disclosure: I have never used a Swhacker head and have no stake in how you score them)


----------



## Michael Myers

nolimitarchery said:


> Grizzlyman1980,
> 
> I will be shooting the Victory VAP's 300's total grain weight 416 on my elk hunt this year. 4X4bucks brother has the same elk tag i have and he will be shooting the same set up. With the carnage that the Grave Digger did on the gel combined with the over all performance it scored why would you want to shoot anything else. Ok my opinion might be a little biased but thats just me:wink:


I Will be making my mind up in the Next 2-3 Weeks,I Will let you know,I am not sure to switch weight or not yet,Teally dont need to,But it will maximise my setups if i do.Grizz


----------



## sethro02

The schwaker will get what it deserves...the website states clearly it is not suppose to open at impact..its suppose to be open In body cavity...so if its open in gel then it will get a good score


----------



## basnbuks

Who makes the vpa head?


Sent across the ocean in a beer bottle


----------



## sethro02

Vpa archery


----------



## sethro02

Laplacesdemon

also isnt that top pick a fixed head? pretty much all fixed heads will get a five, unless it breaks on entry

bottom pic is the rage extreme titanium...had a 4 because the one blade wasnt fully deployed


----------



## sethro02

thanks for all the donations and suupport guys


----------



## basnbuks

sethro02 said:


> Vpa archery


Just ordered a pack. Very impressed


Sent across the ocean in a beer bottle


----------



## 0nepin

GrizzlyMan1980 said:


> What a Great Entrance and Exit Channel,I Dont care if it Survives or Not after i kill an animal with it.


Thanks Grizzlyman180 .now I just have to wait until deer season.the carnage will be insane!!!!!!!!


----------



## Longbow42

basnbuks said:


> Who makes the vpa head?
> 
> 
> Sent across the ocean in a beer bottle


Vantage Point Archery. They must have either changed their sharpening process or sent you a post sharpened head, because they did not use to come razor sharp, but are easy to get razor sharp on a flat stone. They are a great head. I wish they made a Deep Six version.


----------



## Boomerang

sethro02 said:


> Yes that ray charles was crazy...lets not forget about the perfect score broadhead...thanks vpa for the donation...one piece machined steel is solid!


Seth,
Thanks so much for the time, money and effort you put into all this. It is very informative.

Jeff


----------



## corey006

Hey, Seth shoot me your address I will send you some heads...

This thread is too good to stop...


----------



## sethro02

Ive got my injexions built with vap outserts...im gonna sacfifice one for this test I think


----------



## Ned250

Results updated with Seth's tests from last night - https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AgJEvQwzfDRZdGxzdC15R0JIZDJGQ1J4bVpGV1pTWHc


----------



## sethro02

thanks ned250...pm sent


----------



## sethro02

BROADHEADS FOR SALE:
ramcats $25 tyd....2 brand new
nap bloodrunner 2 blade $25 tyd 2 brand new!
grim reaper razortip $25 tyd...2 brand new, 1 practice blade. one tested head that is not broke


----------



## BRUKSHOT

Seth...thanks for an awesome job testing all these heads!!! 

Is there any chance you could test a 2012 100 grain Ramcat? I know they were tweeked with better blades than the 2011 heads and am curious if they would do any better than the 2011 head you tested?


----------



## sethro02

i think someone is working on sending me a 2012


----------



## nolimitarchery

Thank you for the interest in the Grave Digger, this is to answer most of the PM's

Total cutting surface 4.25
Yes I am working on a 125 grain
The carnage pics are on page 36 
Yes they fly with your field points.
The kickout blades are designed to penetrate the skin (no blunt edges) and the way they pivot they are open just inside (see carnage pic) without losing energy from trying to poke through the hide.
Please visit website to see how the blades lock


Please feel free to PM me with any questions.
Thanks again
Dale


----------



## x-force2011

*GREAT JOB Sethro02!!!!*

100 grain Ulmer Head it will be for 2012. The only problem, I want to start shooting these heads. Just can not locate a dealer that has them in stock. Ugh!! 80 days - 21 hrs 17 mins and counting till I am sitting in a tree.


----------



## sethro02

I spoke with dan evans the other day(trophy taker). He said they should be coming way more readily available...should getting in stores everywhere...if you still have problems I can buy them locally for u


----------



## evasiveone

I do not shoot mechanicals but the Grave Digger has me thinking twice. If you did shoot mechanicals why would you shoot anything else? 4 blade 1 3/4" by 1" cut with great penetration and durability. What an awesome head with a well thought out design and function.

Never would of looked at them twice without this test, thanks.


----------



## Bowhuntr64

Olink said:


> This is an irrelevant measurement, and invalidates any results IF used for ranking criteria. Its the amount of cut that is revelant.


The above post is with reference to the measuring of the length of the blades and not the cutting diameter. I agree with this critique. Seth can measure whatever he wants, as he is doing the ranking and testing...but it is unusual and irrelevant to me as well. The longer the blade, the bigger this measurement. If there is a two inch blade with a 1/2" cutting diameter, it will have a much higher measurement than a 1" blade with a 1" cut; so what???


----------



## BearArcher1980

Seth, you are tha man!!! Great job testing on this last round...that Ray Charles head was nasty!!! You have done an amazing job so far and I for one greatly appreciate it!


----------



## sethro02

Thanks for the positive feedback


----------



## flintwood

Ned250 said:


> Results updated with Seth's tests from last night - https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AgJEvQwzfDRZdGxzdC15R0JIZDJGQ1J4bVpGV1pTWHc


What's the difference between penetration and total penetration? I see where two broadheads may have 10" of penetration but one has 21" of total penetration while the other may only have 15"? I'm not sure what this means?


----------



## Bowhuntr64

Great stuff Seth. Thanks for all you are doing. I really don't intend any questions to be combative or disrespectful. 

I do have a question for you: Why do you think a Grizz Trick would out penetrate a Slick Trick Magnum? It has significantly more cutting diameter: 1 1/4" vs 1 1/8" with four blades each, so a full 1/4" more steel blowing through the medium, and at a steeper angle. 

I also noticed you also called the Grizz Trick a Grizz Trick Standard; was that a misprint? Was it really a Grizz Trick or a Standard?


----------



## HOOSIER55

Great test, you have deffinately put a lot of work into this test.


----------



## flintwood

Bowhuntr64 said:


> The above post is with reference to the measuring of the length of the blades and not the cutting diameter. I agree with this critique. Seth can measure whatever he wants, as he is doing the ranking and testing...but it is unusual and irrelevant to me as well. The longer the blade, the bigger this measurement. If there is a two inch blade with a 1/2" cutting diameter, it will have a much higher measurement than a 1" blade with a 1" cut; so what???


The length of the blade is part of the MA ratio, which is the mechanical advantage. It's why you see trad hunters typically using longer heads, the more tapered the blade angle the better the penetration. Some people also claim that a long blade will slice more on the way through compared to how a shorter blade may "punch through" but I don't know if that's been proved.


----------



## Hawgfan

Bowhuntr64 said:


> Great stuff Seth. Thanks for all you are doing. I really don't intend any questions to be combative or disrespectful.
> 
> I do have a question for you: Why do you think a Grizz Trick would out penetrate a Slick Trick Magnum? It has significantly more cutting diameter: 1 1/4" vs 1 1/8" with four blades each, so a full 1/4" more steel blowing through the medium, and at a steeper angle.
> 
> *I also noticed you also called the Grizz Trick a Grizz Trick Standard; was that a misprint?* Was it really a Grizz Trick or a Standard?


I think he meant it was a Grizz Trick (original), not the Grizz Trick 2...


----------



## sethro02

Total penetration is how much actual penetration the head did...this wiill be used In a tiebreak at end...it it had 21 total but a 10..it got 10 points per new scoring system explained several pages back..the contraption is 10" thick hence the 10 pts...passthrough will be plus 1 bonus point...under old penetration scoring a fp would have one..


I said grizz standard to not be confused with grizz 2...also I didnt know I said one would out perform the other...i didnt mean anything like that..imo these st's are very comparable to each other in a good way..sorry for any miscommunication


----------



## 0nepin

sethro02 said:


> titanium extreme
> View attachment 1413194


For what I want out of a broadhead the ray Charles and Supercreech , raging ulmer and gravediggers are at the top of my list.everyone can use this test to chose witch broadhead will do the best for what you want out of a broadhead.No matter what broadhead I use I will be digging them out of the dirt so I want to cut the biggest hole .I am feeling really good about the ray charles.pic tell the real story and the ray charles is a beast!!!thanks Seth for all the hard work.


----------



## evasiveone

flintwood said:


> The length of the blade is part of the MA ratio, which is the mechanical advantage. It's why you see trad hunters typically using longer heads, the more tapered the blade angle the better the penetration. Some people also claim that a long blade will slice more on the way through compared to how a shorter blade may "punch through" but I don't know if that's been proved.


What is interesting about that though is that this test is not showing that. Your short blade broadheads have had more penetration in this test such as the Phatheads, shuttle t and muzzy mx3. All short blade designs.


----------



## goathollow

Bowhuntr64 said:


> The above post is with reference to the measuring of the length of the blades and not the cutting diameter. I agree with this critique. Seth can measure whatever he wants, as he is doing the ranking and testing...but it is unusual and irrelevant to me as well. The longer the blade, the bigger this measurement. If there is a two inch blade with a 1/2" cutting diameter, it will have a much higher measurement than a 1" blade with a 1" cut; so what???


Is there a broad head with 2" blade and 1/2" in cutting diameter? If there is I've never seen it. If not, can you provide a real world example that supports your assertion.

You are certainly allowed to have your opinion on what is important to you (cutting diameter vs cutting surface). But to suggest that cutting surface is not relevant isn't fair. It is relevant...it just isn't important in your opinion. Likewise, to discredit or to attempt to invalidate the testing procedure simply because you prefer cutting diameter to cutting surface is in my opinion also unfair. If you think cutting diameter is more important then invest the time, money and effort to do a different test and publish the results like Seth has.


----------



## ole' bowhunter

Ned250 said:


> Results updated with Seth's tests from last night - https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AgJEvQwzfDRZdGxzdC15R0JIZDJGQ1J4bVpGV1pTWHc


Thank you Ned250 for your update!!



BRUKSHOT said:


> Seth...thanks for an awesome job testing all these heads!!!


Every AT'er should appreciate Seth's efforts. This test should answer the question's some of us might have about how our choice of broad head would compare with another head without having to purchase one. I know in my 60+ years of hunting I have accumulated quite a few that I still have and wouldn't think of using now.

Let's all give a big :thumbs_up:thumbs_up to Seth for taking the time and expense for us here on AT!!


----------



## sethro02

Thanks guys..trying to find time to send ned all the cutting surfaces for document...they are on each test but 52 pages takes a while..i have them all written here just gimme some time


----------



## Michael Myers

nolimitarchery said:


> Grizzlyman1980,
> 
> I will be shooting the Victory VAP's 300's total grain weight 416 on my elk hunt this year. 4X4bucks brother has the same elk tag i have and he will be shooting the same set up. With the carnage that the Grave Digger did on the gel combined with the over all performance it scored why would you want to shoot anything else. Ok my opinion might be a little biased but thats just me:wink:


I Decided to go with 100 GR Steelforce Sabertooth Broadheads as My Moose hunting Head this Fall,I Will keep you in mind for next Moose hunt,Your heads seem to be Top Notch,Thanks Dale,Grizz


----------



## sethro02

Ill keep everybody posted on mail call today..should be a few coming this week


----------



## Grizz1219

Seth... Again.. thanks for doing all this... Best post EVER...


----------



## sethro02

Ni problem


----------



## joehunter8301

them vpa's sure are awesome glad to see them do so well in this test. glad to know i made a smart choice


----------



## sethro02

Yes they are nice!


----------



## TauntoHawk

this thread has only created more problems for me... now I want to try even more broadheads then I already planned on this year 


Seth when you're done here you can take a day or two off and move to testing arrows, then you can work your way into trail cams, stabilizers, optics, sights, and dont forget scent elimenation products (you thought people hated on you now)


----------



## qmb9015

a scent elimination test would be pretty good


----------



## corey006

Seth I bought some heads I am interested in and got them shipped to you...

100gr T.T Terminal T-Lock and Wasp Bullet 100gr on the way....

Both look like they will penetrate quite well.


----------



## sethro02

Ok great...i will be one upping this test...starring my own youtube channel and it will all be video2aped..keep in touch


----------



## qmb9015

if your serious that would be awesome most people just have the real popular heads on youtube but you have done i think 35 last time i looked at that chart and more on the way awesome job

oh if/when you set up your youtube channel if you allow the advertisements on your videos then youtube will cut you a check each month and amount depends on the views you get ive seen couple things on the news about how teens are being paid by youtube for allowing advertisements and so my buddy allowed it on his channel and sure enough he got a check in the mail not much but thats just because he doesnt have many views. So it does work


----------



## kdog23

sethro02 said:


> Ok great...i will be one upping this test...starring my own youtube channel and it will all be video2aped..keep in touch


sweet!!!! I am starting to worry that your wife is gonna get real upset with you at some point...I know my wife has...


----------



## Fullstrutter

Outstanding thread!

Only problem is that there are so many good results I don't know what I want to shoot this Fall now on my Live Kansas Monster Buck Bowhunt!!!

Bravo on the effort you have put forth brotha!


:thumbs_up :thumbs_up :thumbs_up :thumbs_up :thumbs_up !!!!!


----------



## sethro02

i did not know that about youtube.. my wife has been pretty patient butttttt....i will take a small break after all this for sure....my goal with youtube channel is gear reviews, tech tips, etc. also i have "in my opinion" the best hunting show idea so, i have that in the works a little,,,,definately starting phases though


----------



## jdbond

Make sure to tell us what to look up on youtube! I can't wait to see it!


----------



## Boomerang

Ned250 said:


> Results updated with Seth's tests from last night - https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AgJEvQwzfDRZdGxzdC15R0JIZDJGQ1J4bVpGV1pTWHc


Ned250,
You need to double check the scores on the Steelforce Phathead. The sharp before was 5 but the sharp after is 4 not 5 for your spreadsheet.
Thanks 

Steelforce Phathead Results!
penetration- 21!!!!
durability- 5
dependability- 5
sharp before- 5
sharp after- 4
flight- 5


----------



## Kb83

Have read front to back and what a great thread! Just spent 2 1/2 hours straight reading it. Props sethro for doing a great job. I went backed and looked a couple times for the striker results could someone post with the results or page number? Thanks!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk.


----------



## sethro02

Ill look for striker after dinner


----------



## Michael Myers

GrizzlyMan1980 said:


> I Decided to go with 100 GR Steelforce Sabertooth Broadheads as My Moose hunting Head this Fall,I Will keep you in mind for next Moose hunt,Your heads seem to be Top Notch,Thanks Dale,Grizz


I Changed my Mind...I am going to be Hunting with Gravedigger broadheads this Fall and hopefully from now on...The Sabertooths will be for my Brother.I am Very excited and Happy to Choose Grave Diggers and i will post the Carnage from them Later this Fall.Grizz


----------



## pinski79

GrizzlyMan1980 said:


> I Changed my Mind...I am going to be Hunting with Gravedigger broadheads this Fall and hopefully from now on...The Sabertooths will be for my Brother.I am Very excited and Happy to Choose Grave Diggers and i will post the Carnage from them Later this Fall.Grizz


the grave diggers have my interest as well.


----------



## 0nepin

GrizzlyMan1980 said:


> I Changed my Mind...I am going to be Hunting with Gravedigger broadheads this Fall and hopefully from now on...The Sabertooths will be for my Brother.I am Very excited and Happy to Choose Grave Diggers and i will post the Carnage from them Later this Fall.Grizz


They will be in my quiver aswell.but they will franken gravediggers and will be named closed casket ,with a 2.75" cut on the mechanical blades they will be for deer only.pic soon.


----------



## Griz34

I think after this thread I will have 1 Ramcat, 1 TT Shuttle T-Lock, 1 Muzzy 100, 1 G5 T3, and 1 VPA Three Blade Vented in my quiver. I'm just not sure which one will be my first arrow.


----------



## ORROSS334

F-15's sent out today....


----------



## Buck21

can you do a test with the 100gr g5 montecs?


----------



## Bones816

Kb83 said:


> Have read front to back and what a great thread! Just spent 2 1/2 hours straight reading it. Props sethro for doing a great job. I went backed and looked a couple times for the striker results could someone post with the results or page number? Thanks!
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk.


Post #1095.


----------



## Bones816

Buck21 said:


> can you do a test with the 100gr g5 montecs?


Post #146


----------



## basnbuks

pinski79 said:


> the grave diggers have my interest as well.


Same here i ordered some vpa yesterday and gonna order the gravedigger next 


Sent across the ocean in a beer bottle


----------



## pinski79

basnbuks said:


> Same here i ordered some vpa yesterday and gonna order the gravedigger next
> 
> 
> Sent across the ocean in a beer bottle


I'm waiting for a company to buy my love with free broadheads


----------



## Bowhuntr64

Seth, did you get a commitment for a QAD Exodus Swept (barbed) head yet?


----------



## Michael Myers

0nepin said:


> They will be in my quiver aswell.but they will franken gravediggers and will be named closed casket ,with a 2.75" cut on the mechanical blades they will be for deer only.pic soon.


Awesome Name,I had Backstrap on the Bbq tonight with Mushrooms,Green Peppers and Onions,with baked Potatoe,Sad cause...the 2 Blade rage 100 Gr delivered that Backstrap last fall for me...Oh Well,Grave digger will deliver this Fall!!


----------



## Bowhuntr64

flintwood said:


> The length of the blade is part of the MA ratio, which is the mechanical advantage. It's why you see trad hunters typically using longer heads, the more tapered the blade angle the better the penetration. Some people also claim that a long blade will slice more on the way through compared to how a shorter blade may "punch through" but I don't know if that's been proved.


Thanks. I understand that. If that is true, it will be proven so in the penetration tests. However, it has no bearing on total tissue damage. I was just trying to suggest a way that we could measure "total tissue cut" or something like that. I really don't intent to discredit Seth's tests; he is doing an amazing job! I was just trying to suggest a more comprehensive way of judging the killing potential of a head, based on the information he has obtained. I know there is no perfect way to do this.


----------



## sethro02

yes i have qad swept coming...also thanks for finding the striker and montec test for those guys...sorry bout not getting to help out on that


----------



## sethro02

their is definately no perfect way to please everyone on this...i kinda think cutting diameter is a little misleading with marketing sometimes, thats why by me measuring the total portion of that head that will be cutting would put it a little more in perspective on sizd of head and how by looking at the total cut surface by how many inches it penetrated you could tell if big heads did well or small heads did well, or anything in between.


----------



## Sivart

Does anyone know which page both grim reaper tests are on? Thanks


----------



## sethro02

page 36 on grim 1 3/8


----------



## sethro02

whitetail specials page 22


----------



## qmb9015

0nepin said:


> They will be in my quiver aswell.but they will franken gravediggers and will be named closed casket ,with a 2.75" cut on the mechanical blades they will be for deer only.pic soon.


you should use blades from nextra's clean kill broadhead if they would mount right that would do a crazy amount of damage


----------



## smashmouth927

hey seth, you oughta test the NAP Spitfire Maxx


----------



## jdhunter11

0nepin said:


> They will be in my quiver aswell.but they will franken gravediggers and will be named closed casket ,with a 2.75" cut on the mechanical blades they will be for deer only.pic soon.


I would love to see that! The modest cutting diameter (1.75") is the only thing making me hesitate on buying the grave diggers... I'd like to see at least a 2.5" cut for those with higher KE setups.

Awesome thread! and like everyone else has said, thanks for all your hard work Seth (and others who have helped).


----------



## Michael Myers

pinski79 said:


> the grave diggers have my interest as well.


I am gonna drive a Grave digger through a 400 Lbs Bear(Boar) Opening night or the 2nd night of Bear season in September and Get my Old man to Film it....Grizz


----------



## sethro02

Considering spitfire maxx...you are one of few who have asked


----------



## tcarter86

i really dont know what mechanical to get now but i do have a clue. im thnking iim giong with a gravedigger and a ulmer edge along with a reaper wts.... what you guys think.

this is an awesome thread.


----------



## vtec21

Pm sent about killzones if still for sale


----------



## nolimitarchery

I have to ask...did you see what it did to the gel compared to everything else.


----------



## nolimitarchery

jdhunter11 said:


> I would love to see that! The modest cutting diameter (1.75") is the only thing making me hesitate on buying the grave diggers... I'd like to see at least a 2.5" cut for those with higher KE setups.
> 
> Awesome thread! and like everyone else has said, thanks for all your hard work Seth (and others who have helped).


Sorry the quote did work.


----------



## sethro02

Pm's answered


----------



## 206Moose

The gravedigger is more of a hybrid in my opinion. Not a true fixed blade nor a true mechanical thus the reason its the only "mechanical" to break the top ten. Im loving this thread. I can finally show the mech guys i was right. 

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2


----------



## sethro02

Nap bloodrunner 2 blade still for sale..$25tyd
Grim razortips 1 3/8 still for sale...$25 tyd


----------



## evasiveone

jdhunter11 said:


> I would love to see that! The modest cutting diameter (1.75") is the only thing making me hesitate on buying the grave diggers... I'd like to see at least a 2.5" cut for those with higher KE setups.
> 
> Awesome thread! and like everyone else has said, thanks for all your hard work Seth (and others who have helped).


 But the gravedigger also has a 1" cut in a second plane resulting in a 2.75" cutting path.


----------



## basnbuks

nolimitarchery said:


> I have to ask...did you see what it did to the gel compared to everything else.


Yes i did , made my sticker peck out!!!! Lol


Sent across the ocean in a beer bottle


----------



## basnbuks

By the way can some1 find the gravedigger gel pic an bring to the top for me. I cant sit here at work for hours on phone searchin 


Sent across the ocean in a beer bottle


----------



## 0nepin

NTYMADATER said:


> The gravedigger is more of a hybrid in my opinion. Not a true fixed blade nor a true mechanical thus the reason its the only "mechanical" to break the top ten. Im loving this thread. I can finally show the mech guys i was right.
> 
> Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2


Maybe in your eyes but what I was looking for only the gravedigger ,rage RC ,rage SC ,and raging ulmer did.what I want my broadhead to do.and that make massive hole for fast bleed outs and super short trails.I have killed more than alot of deer with a bow and from what I have seen the massive hole in the right spot make finding your deer a whole lot easier.I don't know your setup so maybe a small cut fixed head is your best bet ,but for people that have setups like mine I don't see why you would not want to shoot a mech heads that cut a massive hole.the way I look at it,if I'm going to be digging my arrow out the dirt any way might as well put the biggest hole in the deer has it passes through.Let not forget the ray Charles went through the first layer of plywood and the gel out of a 55lb bow .how could you not be impressed with that.


----------



## sethro02

gravedigger gel


----------



## Michael Myers

sethro02 said:


> gravedigger gel
> View attachment 1414335


Nice..I am pumped to try them and See what they can do this Fall.Grizz


----------



## BILLDOGGE

I think there is going to be a lot of Gravediggers sold

WOW!


----------



## 0nepin

sethro02 said:


> grave digger
> View attachment 1410806


Nice


----------



## 0nepin

BILLDOGGE said:


> I think there is going to be a lot of Gravediggers sold
> 
> WOW!


I bought some.


----------



## sethro02

i have no clue what im using...especially since im changing arrows now....i love my new injexions!!


----------



## basnbuks

Thanks man


Sent across the ocean in a beer bottle


----------



## 0nepin

sethro02 said:


> titanium extreme
> View attachment 1413194


This is the only entry hole that I was impressed with and when the digger show up this is what I'm going trive for with them.


----------



## hedp

sethro02 said:


> i have no clue what im using...especially since im changing arrows now....i love my new injexions!!




Are Injexions thin arrows?


I just started using Victory VAPs with the SS penetrator inserts at 53# at 25" DL and it penetrated the same as my friends 65# at 27" DL into a Block target at 20 yards. 
.


----------



## sethro02

Yes very thin...well just a bit smaller than axis...they are baddddd


----------



## sethro02

These are very comparable to vap's but mine weigh alot more


----------



## nolimitarchery

I shoot the Victory VAP's and I know both of these arrows are the same size and they penetrate like crazy.


----------



## sethro02

I couldnt use ss inserts because the weight would just be way too much


----------



## hedp

sethro02 said:


> These are very comparable to vap's but mine weigh alot more




Cool. I'm not sure how much mine weigh but I am using the 92 gr. SS penetrator instead of the aluminums. 
.


----------



## UTGrad

Dumb question but if the broadhead is cutting the wound channel, how does arrow diameter play into penetration? I definitely can see where it would increase penetration with a field point. With these new "Franken Heads" with their penetration hindering cutting diameter, what difference would diameter make? I would think it would be more a matter of arrow weight and speed vs diameter.


----------



## sethro02

Yea my aluminum insert is 43grains...total arrow weight is 463 with 100 grain point...yours may be a shade over 400 grains depending on ur spine


----------



## shererski

I'm sorry but that GraveDigger cut just looks nasty!! I will get some as soon as my hunting budget gets replenished.


----------



## Kb83

Strikers didn't do as good as I expected but still seem to have done pretty well. What were the sharpest heads out of the box? I know the strikers are damn sharp. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk.


----------



## sethro02

Personally Im looking for downrange punch with minimal resistance...the broadhead cuts..then wound channel starts to close...i want my arrow out of wound channel before that happens...i dont know yet if ill get better performance than my fmj..time will tell


----------



## fast51

Surprised i havent heard the Nap Nightmare mentioned.


----------



## sethro02

Sharpest out of box? Vpa vented..theor were other "5" scores but this bh had a "5" after!


----------



## jdhunter11

nolimitarchery said:


> Sorry the quote did work.


I agree, it definitely tore up the gel. I am just saying, when you have approximately 105 ft/lbs of KE it wouldn't hurt to have a bigger cutting diameter (of course I mean if you dont hit the shoulder bone). With bows getting faster and faster, the trend for bigger cutting broadheads is growing as well. I am just suggesting to stay with the trend, offering a 125 gr head in a larger cutting diameter would probably be a good idea IMO. As inventor of the head, it is totally up to you what you do with it, I was just making a suggestion... Looks like a great head none the less.


----------



## bonecollector66

this thread is awsome


----------



## tapout155

nolimitarchery said:


> I have to ask...did you see what it did to the gel compared to everything else.


I think we all did. I think that's why there is so many guys buying them. This test definitely worked out good for your company. those do look like some nasty, nasty heads.


----------



## bloodnguts

sethro02 said:


> Sharpest out of box? Vpa vented..theor were other "5" scores but this bh had a "5" after!


Not too long ago I purchased six of the VPA broadheads, because I believed the design and material construction of this broadhead to be about the most solid, best penetrating, and failproof on the market, and I wanted a broadhead I could resharpen and reuse, because I was sick of damaged heads, and/or purchasing replacement blades. I believe I am going to be one satisfied customer in these areas. In other words, I do fully believe this is one of the best fixed blade broadheads to ever hit the market.

Having said that Seth, and with all due respect to both you and VPA, the only logical conclusion I can come up with is that whoever sent you the VPA for this test had purposely and specifically sharpened that sucker for you before you got your hands on it, because they are a LONG way from what I would classify as a "5" on the sharpness scale out of the package, and that goes for each broadhead in the two packages I purchased. I could handle them without fear, and darn near run the blade edges along my fingers without causing any significant laceration...unless I actually applied some pretty good force to make a deep cut. I believe VPA is even on record saying that although they are kill deer ready, the edges can be much improved from what they are straight out of the package, and if they were to make them really sharp before selling them, it would substantially increase the price. 

I have used four separate flat diamond stones... extra course, course, fine and extra fine, then a ceramic rod, and finally a leather strop, and that's just to get them to what I would call a "4" out of "5" on the sharpness scale. I can't give them a "5" on the sharpness scale, because I used to hunt with G5 Strikers, which I have to give a "5" to, and the VPA's just don't quite make it to G5 Striker sharpness. I don't say this to knock the VPA, I'm just calling it as it is to put things in what my opinion is the proper perspective, because the blade design and angle is just different than the Strikers. So again, this isn't a slam of VPA because I love everything about them, I just want everyone to know not to expect razor sharpness right out of the package as this test suggested, because I don't think Seth's "straight out of the package" is everybody else's "straight out of the package". I could be off on my hunch here, and if I am, my sincere apology for jumping to such a conclusion without really knowing for sure.


----------



## UTGrad

bloodnguts said:


> Not too long ago I purchased six of the VPA broadheads, because I believed the design and material construction of this broadhead to be about the most solid, best penetrating, and failproof on the market, and I wanted a broadhead I could resharpen and reuse, because I was sick of damaged heads, and/or purchasing replacement blades. I believe I am going to be one satisfied customer in these areas. In other words, I do fully believe this is one of the best fixed blade broadheads to ever hit the market.
> 
> Having said that Seth, and with all due respect to both you and VPA, the only logical conclusion I can come up with is that whoever sent you the VPA for this test had purposely and specifically sharpened that sucker for you before you got your hands on it, because they are a LONG way from what I would classify as a "5" on the sharpness scale out of the package, and that goes for each broadhead in the two packages I purchased. I could handle them without fear, and darn near run the blade edges along my fingers without causing any significant laceration...unless I actually applied some pretty good force to make a deep cut. I believe VPA is even on record saying that although they are kill deer ready, the edges can be much improved from what they are straight out of the package, and if they were to make them really sharp before selling them, it would substantially increase the price.
> 
> I have used four separate flat diamond stones... extra course, course, fine and extra fine, then a ceramic rod, and finally a leather strop, and that's just to get them to what I would call a "4" out of "5" on the sharpness scale. I can't give them a "5" on the sharpness scale, because I used to hunt with G5 Strikers, which I have to give a "5" to, and the VPA's just don't quite make it to G5 Striker sharpness. I don't say this to knock the VPA, I'm just calling it as it is to put things in what my opinion is the proper perspective, because the blade design and angle is just different than the Strikers. So again, this isn't a slam of VPA because I love everything about them, I just want everyone to know not to expect razor sharpness right out of the package as this test suggested, because I don't think Seth's "straight out of the package" is everybody else's "straight out of the package". I could be off on my hunch here, and if I am, my sincere apology for jumping to such a conclusion without really knowing for sure.


Why would a manufacturer hoping to get maximum exposure on AT with a popular test risk their reputation by sending a pack of dull blades? I bet they were scary sharp. 

With that said they do look good and some people have a "talent" at getting stuff sharp. I prefer replaceable blade broadheads.


----------



## 7sand8s

Man I got a bunch of those Gravediggers Ive never open still new in the box 37.00TYD!!)


----------



## qmb9015

now we all know that we dont hunt plywood but i am curious on the comparison between the plywood and a whitetail shoulder bone. With the penetration that we have seen if one was to nail a shoulder bone do yall think we could see a similar penetration depth that we saw during this test? also with the damage that we saw to the blades caused by the plywood if we nail a shoulder bone should we expect to see more or less damage.

I mean either way im going with grave diggers, braxe(since i already have them), and i havent chosen the third head that i will be carrying i already own a few other heads but i dont know if i should sell them or just buy some new ones

Also this is just a question im not saying that his test is crap because i very much enjoyed it and its the reason why i have chosen what i have chosen


----------



## UTGrad

qmb9015 said:


> now we all know that we dont hunt plywood but i am curious on the comparison between the plywood and a whitetail shoulder bone. With the penetration that we have seen if one was to nail a shoulder bone do yall think we could see a similar penetration depth that we saw during this test? also with the damage that we saw to the blades caused by the plywood if we nail a shoulder bone should we expect to see more or less damage.
> 
> I mean either way im going with grave diggers, braxe(since i already have them), and i havent chosen the third head that i will be carrying i already own a few other heads but i dont know if i should sell them or just buy some new ones


If they fly true, are sharp and have a good design...they should do great !


----------



## nolimitarchery

7sand8s said:


> Man I got a bunch of those Gravediggers Ive never open still new in the box 37.00TYD!!)


I am very interested in how you have a bunch of them. Unless you are a dealer or distributor you don't. If anyone buys from this person beware and I would like to know where they are coming from.

Thank you
Dale


----------



## 7sand8s

Dont worry Im not selling them. Im keeping them.
After seeing this thread I would be stupid to sell them.


----------



## BearArcher1980

I think this year I might try the gravedigger heads...my rage 3 blade will still be in my quiver though...I am truely greatful for all the hard work and time Seth is putting into this...I live about 2 hours from ya Seth and wouldlike to shoot with you once you are done and had some "away time" from the testing...be nice to hit a 3d trail with ya one weekend...Thanks again man


----------



## pinski79

7sand8s said:


> Dont worry Im not selling them. Im keeping them.
> After seeing this thread I would be stupid to sell them.


how many did you get?


----------



## 7sand8s

5 packs


----------



## pinski79

7sand8s said:


> 5 packs


5 packs of 3 for $37???


----------



## 7sand8s

Im not selling them. It was a joke. I won them betting a couple of friends. I had never heard of them until this thread..always used rage..but after seeing this thread, I think Im going to have to re-sight my bow to shoot 100gr gravedigger. I have always shot 125gr.


----------



## pinski79

wasn't trying to buy.


----------



## gdouty

Does anyone know if swhackers have been sent for the test? I have some being mailed to me now and I would be happy to send one for testing, but it will probably be next week before I get them in the mail.


----------



## gagodfrey

Ned250,

Since you locked down the admin rights on the spreadsheet, I can't sort by the different columns. Is anyone else experiencing this?


----------



## basnbuks

nolimitarchery said:


> I shoot the Victory VAP's and I know both of these arrows are the same size and they penetrate like crazy.


I done my own penetration test last year with the easton axis and the vap with the penetrator outsert: cant remember the exact weights and im pretty sure i posted on here . Basically i shot each arrow in a 5/8 plywood with field tips and 100 gr rage . The vap with fp almost got a passthru while the axis 400 went about 6". I was realy impressed till i shot the rage were there were pretty much dead even .


Sent across the ocean in a beer bottle


----------



## sawtoothscream

was the grave digger heads tested? I have a pack but want to see how they hold up in the test


----------



## 7sand8s

sawtoothscream said:


> was the grave digger heads tested? I have a pack but want to see how they hold up in the test


page 36


----------



## BootyK

If I shot a fixed head then would shoot QAD Exodus. My other top fixed would be Steelforce Phathead or Shuttle T (all look impressive)
Since I like mechanicals the
Grave Digger looks WAY COOL! 
TT Ulmer Edge may be the go to head also.

I want to see some Phathead SOB's

So many Broadheads to choose from I'm totally whacked out of my mind!
I want them all but which one to try first?
Thanks Seth for driving me FREAKING CRAZY.


----------



## jsbhunter

Well I finally finished reading this thread, very good information here, I am one of those guys that tries different broadheads every year just to try different things.  I have found through some of seths' testing that these tests results actually mirrored some of what I have actually experienced in the field. This leaves me to believe that these tests are actually fairly close to what I can expect in the field, now with that being said I have actually chosen new heads to try from these tests. It will always be a matter of personal experience and opinion what is the best broadhead out there, my opinion so far on what I have used is that the bigger and nastier the head the better the blood trail, the small fixed heads kill the same, just less blood


----------



## 206Moose

0nepin said:


> Maybe in your eyes but what I was looking for only the gravedigger ,rage RC ,rage SC ,and raging ulmer did.what I want my broadhead to do.and that make massive hole for fast bleed outs and super short trails.I have killed more than alot of deer with a bow and from what I have seen the massive hole in the right spot make finding your deer a whole lot easier.I don't know your setup so maybe a small cut fixed head is your best bet ,but for people that have setups like mine I don't see why you would not want to shoot a mech heads that cut a massive hole.the way I look at it,if I'm going to be digging my arrow out the dirt any way might as well put the biggest hole in the deer has it passes through.Let not forget the ray Charles went through the first layer of plywood and the gel out of a 55lb bow .how could you not be impressed with that.


I think you're missing the point of this test. It shows what a broadhead will do under less than ideal shot placement for example hitting shoulder. Unless it scores a 10 on penetration you shouldnt even consider it. I guide in illionois and have tracked more deer than most people do in a lifetime. I can say without a doubt if you dont have an exit your odds decrease at least 50%. The outfitter has even considered banning mechanicals because we have such a high wound rate with mechanicals. Of course part of the wounds are poor shot opportunities that should have been passed but a shoulder shot that only penetrates 3" could have been avoided with a fixed head. Keep in mind we are talking about mature midwest deer. Good luck with whatever you choose but i think the test shows fixed heads are dominating. 

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2


----------



## sethro02

sure beararcher we can hit up a 3d trail...
to the vpa....i have onlly seen and shot one vpa head in my life and that was the package vpa sent me....i have no clue about any other vpa heads...i was shipped a pack, i opened and teted them...i havent even talked to vpa since they shipped me heads. im sorry you had a different experience than me...im telling it how it is with all these heads.


----------



## sethro02

and about similar to a shoulder bone....NONE of us know if it is gonna be exactly..i have some stories on bad shots and their outcomes but im keeping this test fair so im not sharing them...


----------



## gagodfrey

NTYMADATER said:


> I guide in illionois and have tracked more deer than most people do in a lifetime. I can say without a doubt if you dont have an exit your odds decrease at least 50%.


I think it's pretty ridiculous to say that you only have a 50/50 chance of recovering a deer without an exit wound. I have recovered dozens of deer that my arrow didn't pass through. All of them actually.

You are correct in pointing out that this test is designed to exploit any weakness in a broadhead. Looking at all the results, it seems as if almost ALL of these heads will put the game down even after a less than perfect shot. Sure, the broadhead may not be able to go back in your quiver afterwards, but at least it did it's job. And a direct hit to shoulder is pretty much game over for most broadheads. Shoulder bone is quite a bit tougher than plywood.

Thanks Seth for the tests. Very good stuff!


----------



## sethro02

Jsbhunter yes I tried to make it as close as possible...like I said before. I think it is a little sofger than shoulder but def harder than ribs...i didnt want heads to get all passthroughs that would be kinda boring...i was trying to closely create a badshot as much as I could...some of my field experiance has been similar


----------



## HAPPY DAD

What page did the rocket meatseeker get tested on?


----------



## doverpack12

Seth a little off topic here. Once you shoot your victory arrows some try spin testing them and see if your insert bends. I have a friend i shoot and hunt with alot who bought 6 of last years model and tried both inserts and even got new ones from victory and sure enough every time he would shoot once or twice he had a bent insert. His fiance's arrows did the same thing and she was only shooting 40 lbs. I hope they found a way to fix it because i really like the arrows.


----------



## sethro02

Page 48 and 49 meat seeker


----------



## sethro02

I have vap inserts in my injexions I will let u know..i only bought a couple to try..so far each has about 20 shots and spin good...so far


----------



## 206Moose

gagodfrey said:


> I think it's pretty ridiculous to say that you only have a 50/50 chance of recovering a deer without an exit wound. I have recovered dozens of deer that my arrow didn't pass through. All of them actually.
> 
> You are correct in pointing out that this test is designed to exploit any weakness in a broadhead. Looking at all the results, it seems as if almost ALL of these heads will put the game down even after a less than perfect shot. Sure, the broadhead may not be able to go back in your quiver afterwards, but at least it did it's job. And a direct hit to shoulder is pretty much game over for most broadheads. Shoulder bone is quite a bit tougher than plywood.
> 
> Thanks Seth for the tests. Very good stuff!


I think my frame of reference is quit a bit more extensive than yours. If you want to use expandables then use them but dont call my observations ridiculous. We record every deer shot and i guarantee you my results are correct. Plus this test backs up my findings. I'm sorry but fixed heads are better than expandables. 

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2


----------



## Michael Myers

NTYMADATER said:


> I think my frame of reference is quit a bit more extensive than yours. If you want to use expandables then use them but dont call my observations ridiculous. We record every deer shot and i guarantee you my results are correct. Plus this test backs up my findings. I'm sorry but fixed heads are better than expandables.
> 
> Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2


Thats your opinion,I am not biasist towards either type and am not disputing your findings but,Just because you say there Better does not make them better.How do you like guiding in Illinois?


----------



## 206Moose

GrizzlyMan1980 said:


> Thats your opinion,I am not biasist towards either type and am not disputing your findings but,Just because you say there Better does not make them better.How do you like guiding in Illinois?


It's my interpretation of the data although i will admit i am biased for fixed heads. By the way guiding in Illinois is awesome especially if you have some good guys in camp. 

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2


----------



## Michael Myers

NTYMADATER said:


> It's my interpretation of the data although i will admit i am biased for fixed heads. By the way guiding in Illinois is awesome especially if you have some good guys in camp.
> 
> Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2


I See,So,You own a Lodge or Just work for an Outfitter?What type of Fixedhead do you use?


----------



## jack88

NTYMADATER said:


> . I guide in illionois and have tracked more deer than most people do in a lifetime. I can say without a doubt if you dont have an exit your odds decrease at least 50%.


Would you like to maybe rethink that comment? Maybe think before you speak?

I have shot a moose and an elk, no exit wound, the elk ran 40 yards and piled up, the moose took 3 steps, bedded down, and called it quits.


----------



## sethro02

Guys...should be getting some heads soon in mail...everything is sold or pending except bloodrunner 2 blades and the t3's


----------



## MarkBaHoi

sethro02 said:


> Guys...should be getting some heads soon in mail...everything is sold or pending except bloodrunner 2 blades and the t3's


I might have omitted the nativ if I did I'll send it separate.

Everyone can track along for those, post the number ha ha. You can just sell or give that gator away as you tested it already. I was sure not happy w/ the test, the deer I shot it destroyed...don't know why they didn't stay open.


----------



## qmb9015

MarkBaHoi said:


> I might have omitted the nativ if I did I'll send it separate..


if you did send one hope it does good that way mine will sell easier lol


----------



## Ned250

Boomerang said:


> Ned250,
> You need to double check the scores on the Steelforce Phathead. The sharp before was 5 but the sharp after is 4 not 5 for your spreadsheet.
> Thanks
> 
> Steelforce Phathead Results!
> penetration- 21!!!!
> durability- 5
> dependability- 5
> sharp before- 5
> sharp after- 4
> flight- 5


Great catch! Spreadsheet has been updated.


----------



## Ned250

gagodfrey said:


> Ned250,
> 
> Since you locked down the admin rights on the spreadsheet, I can't sort by the different columns. Is anyone else experiencing this?


Unfortunately I had to lock it down because people were doing some wacky sorting on the file and got things out of sync. If you want to do your own data manipulation, you can just copy/paste it into Excel.


----------



## sethro02

Thx ned id like the changes to be made by me or you


----------



## Kb83

Got to say I am amazed at the level of commitment you have put into this being married with young children. My wife would of climbed up one side of me and down the other by now. Lol. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk.


----------



## bowtechJDW

Kb83 said:


> Got to say I am amazed at the level of commitment you have put into this being married with young children. My wife would of climbed up one side of me and down the other by now. Lol.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk.


X2 I wouldn't want to imagine what would happen to me. Lol


----------



## nolimitarchery

NTYMADATER said:


> I think you're missing the point of this test. It shows what a broadhead will do under less than ideal shot placement for example hitting shoulder. Unless it scores a 10 on penetration you shouldnt even consider it. I guide in illionois and have tracked more deer than most people do in a lifetime. I can say without a doubt if you dont have an exit your odds decrease at least 50%. The outfitter has even considered banning mechanicals because we have such a high wound rate with mechanicals. Of course part of the wounds are poor shot opportunities that should have been passed but a shoulder shot that only penetrates 3" could have been avoided with a fixed head. Keep in mind we are talking about mature midwest deer. Good luck with whatever you choose but i think the test shows fixed heads are dominating.
> 
> Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2


To me I really feel that most people are focusing on the wrong thing. The shoulder makes up less than 10% of the area you are going to hit on a bad shot. If you are not shooting heavy poundage you are not going to get through it no matter what broadhead you shoot. The other bad shots include liver, guts neck, one lung, high toward the spine, in the back leg. These shots make up the majority of all bad shots. Yes you need to have penetration but the head has to have as much cutting that is possible to recover these animals. JMO


----------



## sethro02

Yes this was a big commitment...didnt know how big until my inbox was full...everyday


----------



## pinski79

nolimitarchery said:


> To me I really feel that most people are focusing on the wrong thing. The shoulder makes up less than 10% of the area you are going to hit on a bad shot. If you are not shooting heavy poundage you are not going to get through it no matter what broadhead you shoot. The other bad shots include liver, guts neck, one lung, high toward the spine, in the back leg. These shots make up the majority of all bad shots. Yes you need to have penetration but the head has to have as much cutting that is possible to recover these animals. JMO


that's the world I live in


----------



## GarrickTX

nolimitarchery said:


> To me I really feel that most people are focusing on the wrong thing. The shoulder makes up less than 10% of the area you are going to hit on a bad shot. If you are not shooting heavy poundage you are not going to get through it no matter what broadhead you shoot. The other bad shots include liver, guts neck, one lung, high toward the spine, in the back leg. These shots make up the majority of all bad shots. Yes you need to have penetration but the head has to have as much cutting that is possible to recover these animals. JMO


x2 That needed to be brought up.


----------



## 0nepin

nolimitarchery said:


> To me I really feel that most people are focusing on the wrong thing. The shoulder makes up less than 10% of the area you are going to hit on a bad shot. If you are not shooting heavy poundage you are not going to get through it no matter what broadhead you shoot. The other bad shots include liver, guts neck, one lung, high toward the spine, in the back leg. These shots make up the majority of all bad shots. Yes you need to have penetration but the head has to have as much cutting that is possible to recover these animals. JMO


Your a 100% right .I track alot of deer every year with my trained blood dog and I have seen all of the bad shots that can be made and you are better off causing more carnage.


----------



## 7sand8s

nolimitarchery said:


> To me I really feel that most people are focusing on the wrong thing. The shoulder makes up less than 10% of the area you are going to hit on a bad shot. If you are not shooting heavy poundage you are not going to get through it no matter what broadhead you shoot. The other bad shots include liver, guts neck, one lung, high toward the spine, in the back leg. These shots make up the majority of all bad shots. Yes you need to have penetration but the head has to have as much cutting that is possible to recover these animals. JMO


Agree^^^ more than 50% of the archers on here are going to make that bad shot this year if they shoot at enough deer. Thats why I like Gravediggers, I am only human and very capable of a bad shot....we aint shooting rifles.


----------



## GarrickTX

sethro02 said:


> Yes this was a big commitment...didnt know how big until my inbox was full...everyday


It is much appreciated


----------



## 206Moose

GrizzlyMan1980 said:


> I See,So,You own a Lodge or Just work for an Outfitter?What type of Fixedhead do you use?


I work for an outfitter. Currently I'm using Razortricks. Waiting to see how they test before I go buy some Phatheads.


----------



## 206Moose

nolimitarchery said:


> To me I really feel that most people are focusing on the wrong thing. The shoulder makes up less than 10% of the area you are going to hit on a bad shot. If you are not shooting heavy poundage you are not going to get through it no matter what broadhead you shoot. The other bad shots include liver, guts neck, one lung, high toward the spine, in the back leg. These shots make up the majority of all bad shots. Yes you need to have penetration but the head has to have as much cutting that is possible to recover these animals. JMO


I will say mechanicals are way better on gutshots. Recovery rate for gut shots with mechanicals has been 100%.


----------



## 206Moose

jack88 said:


> Would you like to maybe rethink that comment? Maybe think before you speak?
> 
> I have shot a moose and an elk, no exit wound, the elk ran 40 yards and piled up, the moose took 3 steps, bedded down, and called it quits.


I have no information on moose or elk. I've never had the oppurtunity to hunt either one. Congratulations on your success. I'm only talking about whitetails so yes I stand behind my statement 100%.


----------



## GarrickTX

Another thing to keep in mind is that almost all of these BHs have scored very closely. We as the hunter have to decide which one we are more COMFORTABLE with, that confidence gained by being comfortable with your set up is all the difference between that heart/double lung shot, and that gut shot. If you have a favorite on here, don't change just because it didn't do as well as another head, try new ones on a target. If you feel its more comfortable to you, then you were just chosen by that broadhead.... Same goes with bows. :beer:


----------



## sethro02

Wrkng on getting razorticks


----------



## 0nepin

NTYMADATER said:


> I have no information on moose or elk. I've never had the oppurtunity to hunt either one. Congratulations on your success. I'm only talking about whitetails so yes I stand behind my statement 100%.


If you shoot very low ke/mo setups then your right, but if your shooting higher ke setups that are going to get a passthrough either way then you should use the biggest cut head you can shoot accurately.


----------



## GarrickTX

Has anyone used the atom? It looks mean, I saw a video on Ikesoutdoors on it.


----------



## sethro02

Someone may be sending me 1..not sure yet....im glad alot of you guys like this thread...the next one will be even better..still talking to vendors...and my wife about it so it may be a litgle while


----------



## GarrickTX

sethro02 said:


> Someone may be sending me 1..not sure yet....im glad alot of you guys like this thread...the next one will be even better..still talking to vendors...and my wife about it so it may be a litgle while


Cool. And don't worry about "taking a little while" to do it either, you are doing us the favor by doing it at all. Remember to keep your wife #1 priority, she will be the one with you at the end of these threads, not us. Idk if I can speak for everyone but I'm sure most of us that have been reading have a family and know what hoops you're trying to jump through. Family first and just do this for fun.

Once again, Thank you and your family for all your time and effort.


----------



## bowabuk

Keep up the good work seth your doing a great job !!!!


----------



## tankdogg60

NTYMADATER said:


> I think my frame of reference is quit a bit more extensive than yours. If you want to use expandables then use them but dont call my observations ridiculous. We record every deer shot and i guarantee you my results are correct. Plus this test backs up my findings. I'm sorry but fixed heads are better than expandables.
> 
> Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2


I feel like any opinion of an animal that is not recovered is just that, an opinion. Just because lots of deer are shot with mechanicals and not found doesn't mean anything. If you can not physically put your hands on an animal and dissect the wound channel, then there is nothing but a shaken up hunter who "thinks" they shot the deer just as they remembered in their shaken state while the big buck approached. I am not saying one is better than the other, any walmart broadhead will kill an animal eventually. It will come down to the shot placement and the tracker of the animal. Just because one didn't find an animal, doesn't mean it wasn't killed quickly and humanely. Some deer don't have wonderful blood trails even when shot in the lungs with a huge broadhead, perhaps they were hit a little higher than expected and the blood filled up inside. I am not an expert, but I have been in camps for 10 years in the mid-west and out west week in and week out with tons of hunters who "smoked" their deer, and when found they infact hit it in the shoulder or way back in the guts. Or sometimes I have seen deer that looked absolutely smoked, but the opposite leg may have been back and they missed the off lung or the deer was exhaling at the right second and it wasn't hit as solid in the lungs as thought. Also I have seen deer killed where one lung was shriveled up like a raisin and had been shot once before and lived on one lung for who knows how long. Deer are like anything else, some have more of a will to live. And being in camp I'm sure we all have seen some wild stories. But, if someone isn't finding deer, more than likely it's the indian and not the arrow. If you record 100 deer double lunged with fixed and 100 double lunged with mechanical, then you can get a percentage that may weigh one way or the other. But to say one is better depends on the situation and the shot. Every broadhead placed in the correct spot will kill that animal. Not trying to cause a stir, but we all know that we have our preference in broadheads. I shoot Tekans and recently T3's. I have shot deer with all sorts of broadheads, but I prefer these. A lot of people hate them, but I like them. If someone doesn't like them then they shoot whatever they prefer. It's all about what you prefer and what you have confidence in. 



Thank you so much for your time and effort Seth. This is one of the best posts ever on AT.


----------



## rayzor43

bloodnguts said:


> Not too long ago I purchased six of the VPA broadheads, because I believed the design and material construction of this broadhead to be about the most solid, best penetrating, and failproof on the market, and I wanted a broadhead I could resharpen and reuse, because I was sick of damaged heads, and/or purchasing replacement blades. I believe I am going to be one satisfied customer in these areas. In other words, I do fully believe this is one of the best fixed blade broadheads to ever hit the market.
> 
> Having said that Seth, and with all due respect to both you and VPA, the only logical conclusion I can come up with is that whoever sent you the VPA for this test had purposely and specifically sharpened that sucker for you before you got your hands on it, because they are a LONG way from what I would classify as a "5" on the sharpness scale out of the package, and that goes for each broadhead in the two packages I purchased. I could handle them without fear, and darn near run the blade edges along my fingers without causing any significant laceration...unless I actually applied some pretty good force to make a deep cut. I believe VPA is even on record saying that although they are kill deer ready, the edges can be much improved from what they are straight out of the package, and if they were to make them really sharp before selling them, it would substantially increase the price.
> 
> I have used four separate flat diamond stones... extra course, course, fine and extra fine, then a ceramic rod, and finally a leather strop, and that's just to get them to what I would call a "4" out of "5" on the sharpness scale. I can't give them a "5" on the sharpness scale, because I used to hunt with G5 Strikers, which I have to give a "5" to, and the VPA's just don't quite make it to G5 Striker sharpness. I don't say this to knock the VPA, I'm just calling it as it is to put things in what my opinion is the proper perspective, because the blade design and angle is just different than the Strikers. So again, this isn't a slam of VPA because I love everything about them, I just want everyone to know not to expect razor sharpness right out of the package as this test suggested, because I don't think Seth's "straight out of the package" is everybody else's "straight out of the package". I could be off on my hunch here, and if I am, my sincere apology for jumping to such a conclusion without really knowing for sure.[/QUOTE
> 
> I really don't want to address this on Seth's thread but I do want to address it. Seth tested what we sent him and has done his best to accurately report the results of evryone's products. He's doing it for you, not for any manufacturer I'm aware of. Did we spend a lot of time honing and polishing on the heads we sent for testing?...no. Did we make sure we were sending good samples?....of course we did. Murphy lives. I will address it in same way I did previously for the poster and anyone else that has asked.
> 
> Sharpness is a personal/subjective thing. What Bloodnguts described I do not believe represents what the majority of our customers' efforts. Our materials and heat treating practices allow the heads to take and maintain an edge. You can kill with them as is or put a finer finish on them to whatever fineness you choose. We are aware there are many animals killed with the heads straight out of the package. We recommend shooting each arrow/head you plan to hunt with to make sure they are tuned for your set up then spend a few minutes to inspect and touch up the edges as needed.
> 
> This is going to sound kind of foolish but look up "sharp" in the dictionary. It basically is defined as a narrow angle. The narrower angle the sharper something is and the more it will "feel" what many call "sharp". I will be the first to admit replaceable blades (that Styker Bloodnguts likes so well has replaceable blades) typically have 17-22 degree angles. All pyramid designed heads be they molded, cast, welded or in our case, machined, have 30 degree edges by the nature of the design. By definition replaceable blade heads are sharper than every pyramid designed head on the market, ours included. We don't promote our heads on sharpness we promote them on durability and performance. All VPA products carry a satisfaction guarantee.
> 
> ...now back to the test.


----------



## brokenlittleman

Any commitments on a Phathead SOB. I can send one if not.


----------



## RT8

ozarksbuckslaye said:


> Test them by shooting them into real live animals. That's what us real hunters do and none of us give two hoots about these kind of little gay tests. The proof is in the puddin' and if you ain't got no puddin' you aint got no proof. Go find a whole bunch of puddins' and kill em' dead with a variety of different heads, then come back and tell us what you've learned.


Yeah, 42 pages of nobody caring...

Good work sethro02!


----------



## BigB_2579

GarrickTX said:


> Another thing to keep in mind is that almost all of these BHs have scored very closely. We as the hunter have to decide which one we are more COMFORTABLE with, that confidence gained by being comfortable with your set up is all the difference between that heart/double lung shot, and that gut shot. If you have a favorite on here, don't change just because it didn't do as well as another head, try new ones on a target. If you feel its more comfortable to you, then you were just chosen by that broadhead.... Same goes with bows. :beer:


This is a GREAT thing to point out ! I do a lot of fishing , and can relate 100% to that ... Confidence is EVERYTHING when it comes to these things ! 

@Sethro ... Bud , I just finished reading this entire thread , I don't see how you've kept this up ! Great Job , Man ! Best thing I've seen on here in a while. Can't wait to see all the final scores !!! Kudos also to whatever manufacturers contacted you and sent you some heads ... Just shows that they really stand by their product ! Keep up the good work ! 

Big B.


----------



## 206Moose

tankdogg60 said:


> I feel like any opinion of an animal that is not recovered is just that, an opinion. Just because lots of deer are shot with mechanicals and not found doesn't mean anything. If you can not physically put your hands on an animal and dissect the wound channel, then there is nothing but a shaken up hunter who "thinks" they shot the deer just as they remembered in their shaken state while the big buck approached. I am not saying one is better than the other, any walmart broadhead will kill an animal eventually. It will come down to the shot placement and the tracker of the animal. Just because one didn't find an animal, doesn't mean it wasn't killed quickly and humanely. Some deer don't have wonderful blood trails even when shot in the lungs with a huge broadhead, perhaps they were hit a little higher than expected and the blood filled up inside. I am not an expert, but I have been in camps for 10 years in the mid-west and out west week in and week out with tons of hunters who "smoked" their deer, and when found they infact hit it in the shoulder or way back in the guts. Or sometimes I have seen deer that looked absolutely smoked, but the opposite leg may have been back and they missed the off lung or the deer was exhaling at the right second and it wasn't hit as solid in the lungs as thought. Also I have seen deer killed where one lung was shriveled up like a raisin and had been shot once before and lived on one lung for who knows how long. Deer are like anything else, some have more of a will to live. And being in camp I'm sure we all have seen some wild stories. But, if someone isn't finding deer, more than likely it's the indian and not the arrow. If you record 100 deer double lunged with fixed and 100 double lunged with mechanical, then you can get a percentage that may weigh one way or the other. But to say one is better depends on the situation and the shot. Every broadhead placed in the correct spot will kill that animal. Not trying to cause a stir, but we all know that we have our preference in broadheads. I shoot Tekans and recently T3's. I have shot deer with all sorts of broadheads, but I prefer these. A lot of people hate them, but I like them. If someone doesn't like them then they shoot whatever they prefer. It's all about what you prefer and what you have confidence in.
> 
> 
> 
> Thank you so much for your time and effort Seth. This is one of the best posts ever on AT.



You are correct alot of these wounded animals are from people not waiting for a high percentage shot. Here is an example a guy i guided last year took a quartering to shot using a tekan and it literally bounced off its shoulder. For whatever reason the buck didn't run but took a few more steps and gave him a broadside shot and he killed the deer. Can't beat luck.


----------



## 206Moose

0nepin said:


> If you shoot very low ke/mo setups then your right, but if your shooting higher ke setups that are going to get a passthrough either way then you should use the biggest cut head you can shoot accurately.


I agree low KE is a reason mechanicals often don't get a pass through. What is the minimum KE you would suggest for mechanicals? I'm thinking 80.


----------



## 206Moose

sethro02 said:


> Wrkng on getting razorticks


I'll send you some if you need them.


----------



## Michael Myers

NTYMADATER said:


> I agree low KE is a reason mechanicals often don't get a pass through. What is the minimum KE you would suggest for mechanicals? I'm thinking 80.


80?Seriously? Why so much?I Get complete Pass thrus on Deer and Bear with 100 Gr 2 Blade Rage,Shooting 60 Lbs,28' Draw,Easton Axis N-Fused 400's at 29",Maybe some of the Guys you are guiding need to Practice there Shooting a bit..Jus Sayin...Grizz


----------



## sawtoothscream

looks lik ethe grave digger rated pretty good  hopefully Ill get to see what they do on deer this season


----------



## 206Moose

GrizzlyMan1980 said:


> 80?Seriously? Why so much?I Get complete Pass thrus on Deer and Bear with 100 Gr 2 Blade Rage,Shooting 60 Lbs,28' Draw,Easton Axis N-Fused 400's at 29",Maybe some of the Guys you are guiding need to Practice there Shooting a bit..Jus Sayin...Grizz


I was guessing i have no idea how much KE it takes for mechs. Sounds like alot less than 80 but keep in mind i was talking about getting a pass through on the shoulder blade. I know a fixed blade will do it with 60 KE. And yes they do need to practice shooting. One week 9 guys got 11 shots and only one of them hit lungs. I recovered all of them except one. The lung shot was with fixed blades how ironic. LOL 

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2


----------



## sethro02

I need a razortrick and phat sob....pm me plz..thx guys


----------



## sethro02

Lets keep yhis going...still more testing to go


----------



## sethro02

Oh and im not doing it for a certain broadhead company


----------



## Yooper-travler

sethro02 said:


> Lets keep yhis going...still more testing to go


What other heads do you need Seth?


----------



## Michael Myers

NTYMADATER said:


> I was guessing i have no idea how much KE it takes for mechs. Sounds like alot less than 80 but keep in mind i was talking about getting a pass through on the shoulder blade. I know a fixed blade will do it with 60 KE. And yes they do need to practice shooting. One week 9 guys got 11 shots and only one of them hit lungs. I recovered all of them except one. The lung shot was with fixed blades how ironic. LOL
> 
> Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2


Really,I Know of 2 Guys who hit shoulder blades in the Last 2 Years and neither was a Pass thru,One was using a Fixed head and the other a Mech,Both shoot 61-62 Lbs and are usually a great shot,Neither recovered there deer and both times the arrows were broken off about 4 Inches into the Shoulder,Both heads were Tested on this Thread and Did...Good,Not great,You can Pm me if you want to know the heads...I Wont say them in the thread,Dont want to Offend or Butthurt anybody and there go too Head.I Would say 60 Ke plus for Mechs on Deer or Bear would be Effective..Cheers,Grizz


----------



## sethro02

100 grain schwacker would be nice..its being asked about...i think I have at least 5 or 6 coming in mail of different heads


----------



## Quartermoons

Someone pm me if a grizz trick 2 is needed. Sorry if it's already on the spreadsheet.


----------



## Yooper-travler

Can't help ya with that one. Couple types of magnus, inverters, and alot you already did.


----------



## jaysib

NTYMADATER said:


> I was guessing i have no idea how much KE it takes for mechs. Sounds like alot less than 80 but keep in mind i was talking about getting a pass through on the shoulder blade. I know a fixed blade will do it with 60 KE. And yes they do need to practice shooting. One week 9 guys got 11 shots and only one of them hit lungs. I recovered all of them except one. The lung shot was with fixed blades how ironic. LOL


I just bought a new bow. But the prior 7 years I hunted with my Mathews at 28" and 64lbs. I'm guessing my KE was about 60. I killed 4 deer with my bow last year and all were pass thru. All were killed with the same Spitfire and never sharpened it. The 4th kill was a doe and it went thru both shoulder blades. I have video to prove it.
Everyone needs to watch the results and take from it what you want. Stop with the Fixed vs Mech are the best comments. there is enough to read on here allready.


----------



## jdbond

How close does the Gravedigger fly like a field point? I'm curious about that with the fixed blade style head.


----------



## brokenlittleman

sethro02 said:


> I need a razortrick and phat sob....pm me plz..thx guys


PM sent on the Phathead SOB.


----------



## nolimitarchery

jdbond said:


> How close does the Gravedigger fly like a field point? I'm curious about that with the fixed blade style head.


They fly with your field points. I had a Prostaff member unscrew his broadheads and screw in his field points and win a 45 target 3D shoot. I have had great success from guys screwing them on and walk to 50 yards and they hit where there FP's hit.


----------



## jkm97

NTYMADATER said:


> I agree low KE is a reason mechanicals often don't get a pass through. What is the minimum KE you would suggest for mechanicals? I'm thinking 80.


55 ft lbs. is generally fine for mechs on deer sized game. At the low end of the scale you should use more conservative mechs with smaller cutting diameters, such as the Rocket Steelhead or the new Ulmer Edge, and save the big 2" cuts for something over 60 ft lbs. I have killed about 100 deer with a bow, mostly with mechs, and quite a few were using setups in the 60 ft lb range. Passthroughs almost always. I mostly use spitfires or steelheads.


----------



## sethro02

Phat sob is coming...mail call today! St standard magnus buzzcut..and some carbon express heads


----------



## tankdogg60

NTYMADATER said:


> You are correct alot of these wounded animals are from people not waiting for a high percentage shot. Here is an example a guy i guided last year took a quartering to shot using a tekan and it literally bounced off its shoulder. For whatever reason the buck didn't run but took a few more steps and gave him a broadside shot and he killed the deer. Can't beat luck.


Lol, that's wild!


----------



## 0nepin

NTYMADATER said:


> I agree low KE is a reason mechanicals often don't get a pass through. What is the minimum KE you would suggest for mechanicals? I'm thinking 80.


Both my main hunting bows are over 100lb ke but I know you don't need that much.one 112lb ke and the other is 123ke.thats why I like massive cutting broadhead like the Ray Charles .


----------



## d_money

The problem is a lot of people are shooting mechs with way to low of ke. I was hunting blacktail this passed weekend and one guy I saw was shooting a pse stinger at 55lbs. And had rage 2 blades in his quiver. I feel a little weary shooting big mechs out of my bow and it's well over 80ke. The problem is the marketing that goes on tv they say flys like a fp and then shows a bunch of tv hunters shooting animals with them. The guy I saw this weekend was shooting them because he didn't want or have time to shoot fixed head. His bow was only making just over 40ke. I talked to him about it and told him how to bh tune his bow and also informed him that he wouldn't get the penitration he was after from the rages out of his bow.


----------



## MiamiE

Spitfire Maxx is supposedly 45 KE per their website.


----------



## Bones816

jaysib said:


> I just bought a new bow. But the prior 7 years I hunted with my Mathews at 28" and 64lbs. I'm guessing my KE was about 60. I killed 4 deer with my bow last year and all were pass thru. All were killed with the same Spitfire and never sharpened it. The 4th kill was a doe and it went thru both shoulder blades. I have video to prove it.
> Everyone needs to watch the results and take from it what you want. Stop with the Fixed vs Mech are the best comments. there is enough to read on here allready.


I'd like to see that video.


----------



## MiamiE

Reading through this thread got me doubting my choice of the 1 3/4" 100 grain Spitfire Maxx now. I shoot 63# and my arrows are the Goldtip XT Hunters 8.2 grains at 28". Maybe I should be shooting the 1 3/8" 100 grain Grim Reaper?


----------



## goathollow

nolimitarchery said:


> To me I really feel that most people are focusing on the wrong thing. The shoulder makes up less than 10% of the area you are going to hit on a bad shot. If you are not shooting heavy poundage you are not going to get through it no matter what broadhead you shoot. The other bad shots include liver, guts neck, one lung, high toward the spine, in the back leg. These shots make up the majority of all bad shots. Yes you need to have penetration but the head has to have as much cutting that is possible to recover these animals. JMO


Sorry, nolimitarchery but I believe you are the one missing the point of this particular test. You make a great broadhead and I know you've supported Seth's efforts. And, I may even given them a whirl this year. But, Seth's test was deliberately designed to mimic a worst case example...that being a shoulder shot into bone. Clearly, if someone wants to know how damage a bunch of broadheads will do to a gut shot animal a different test would be warranted. But that isn't what Seth's test was designed to do.

I would wager a guess that over the top expandables like yours would perform admiralbly in a gut shot test. I do also agree that gut shots happen as frequently as shoulder shots. Maybe we can find someone to conduct a gut shot (soft tissue test) in the same way Seth has conducted his.


----------



## 0nepin

Maybe Seth will do just a gel test . Ray Charles would love to eat some more gel!!!!!!


----------



## mdnabors

0nepin said:


> Maybe Seth will do just a gel test . Ray Charles would love to eat some more gel!!!!!!


I was thinking same thing. Maybe gel or a bucket of sorts full of liquid to see entry and exit holes and how quickly the blood loss is. That'd be cool!


----------



## 0nepin

sethro02 said:


> titanium extreme
> View attachment 1413194


This thing would destroy the gel.if he does a gut test I'm putting my money on ray Charles or the gravedigger closed casket !!


----------



## Michael Myers

0nepin said:


> This thing would destroy the gel.if he does a gut test I'm putting my money on ray Charles or the gravedigger closed casket !!


What is the Grave Digger,Closed Casket?Or will only you have enough Ke?Lol...How are you gonna make them?...U Have my Attention....Grizz


----------



## Gus_IL

1st of all this is awesome work and you should be commended, as well as everyone else who's helped and donated.

2nd - I'd really like to see the spreadsheet updated with the diameter cuts. At least the advertised diameter, though you could argue that a true cut length would include the height of each blade, so 2 x 2" blades or 3 x 1.25" blades, etc. You could take it one step further and measure the cut on the vinyl as well.

3rd - add the suggested retail price to the spreadsheet. 

Adding in these two things makes the spreadsheet a one stop shop for information needed for people to make their choices.

Thanks again.


----------



## nolimitarchery

goathollow said:


> Sorry, nolimitarchery but I believe you are the one missing the point of this particular test. You make a great broadhead and I know you've supported Seth's efforts. And, I may even given them a whirl this year. But, Seth's test was deliberately designed to mimic a worst case example...that being a shoulder shot into bone. Clearly, if someone wants to know how damage a bunch of broadheads will do to a gut shot animal a different test would be warranted. But that isn't what Seth's test was designed to do.
> 
> *I would wager a guess that over the top expandables like yours would perform admiralbly in a gut shot test*. I do also agree that gut shots happen as frequently as shoulder shots. Maybe we can find someone to conduct a gut shot (soft tissue test) in the same way Seth has conducted his.


Ok I see your point, as this test has 2 hard mediums to pass through. But, my broadhead preformed admirably on this test also. Penetration is a huge factor in a broadhead as it should be but if that is the only factor then everyone should use a field point. I feel that there are way more bad shots that don't hit the shoulder than "as frequently" that is just because there are more spots to hit than just one. Seths test is not just a shoulder shot test. He has already stated the he feels the wood he is using is harder than ribs but not as hard as a shoulder. That gives a few different looks in one test. People get to see a little of how a head will do with a specific medium. Nobody hunts plywood, but if your head won't work on a simple test as this then you may want to rethink your options. If your head penetrates through the medium with no problem but leaves a little hole then you better never miss the lungs, heart or shoulder. It's is about maximizing your potential to recover an animal where ever your broadhead hits. 

Thanks
Dale


----------



## jdbond

nolimitarchery said:


> They fly with your field points. I had a Prostaff member unscrew his broadheads and screw in his field points and win a 45 target 3D shoot. I have had great success from guys screwing them on and walk to 50 yards and they hit where there FP's hit.


Well it looks like I might just buy a pack of them and the ulmers. I really do like the way that both heads performed in the test. Now just gotta test them in the field and see which I like better!


----------



## 206Moose

0nepin said:


> Both my main hunting bows are over 100lb ke but I know you don't need that much.one 112lb ke and the other is 123ke.thats why I like massive cutting broadhead like the Ray Charles .


That's some serious KE 

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2


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## 206Moose

Recovery rate for gut shot deer with mechs has been 100% at my camp. 

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2


----------



## tankdogg60

jaysib said:


> I just bought a new bow. But the prior 7 years I hunted with my Mathews at 28" and 64lbs. I'm guessing my KE was about 60. I killed 4 deer with my bow last year and all were pass thru. All were killed with the same Spitfire and never sharpened it. The 4th kill was a doe and it went thru both shoulder blades. I have video to prove it.
> Everyone needs to watch the results and take from it what you want. Stop with the Fixed vs Mech are the best comments. there is enough to read on here allready.


Not trying to punch holes in your story, but did your broadhead go through both bones of the shoulder blade. Or did it go through the pocket in the shoulder? I'm sure you are aware, but about midway into the body the shoulder bends way forward and then back and makes a triangle pocket dead center of the shoulder. I get fussed at all the time from buddies because I shoot my deer so tight right there that I sometimes hit that pocket. And they are afraid I will hit that shoulder. A doe may be one thing in some cases, but a 250 mid-west buck is no deer to hit the shoulder on. Just curious as to if the broadhead went through both shoulder bones. If in fact it did, that is quite impressive.


----------



## jaysib

Bones816 said:


> I'd like to see that video.


My 4th deer is at the 2:08 point in the video. The arrow didn't completely pass thru but the broadhead was sticking out the other shoulder. The Broadhead snapped off her right side and the nock and fletchings snapped off her left side and we found the rest of the arrow in her in 3 pieces. It probably would have passed all the way thru her if I hadn't put it thru 3 other deer and into the ground 3 times.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0_GaqQy6nxs&feature=plcp


----------



## 0nepin

GrizzlyMan1980 said:


> What is the Grave Digger,Closed Casket?Or will only you have enough Ke?Lol...How are you gonna make them?...U Have my Attention....Grizz


Hehe , I have few different blades that I'm going to test first . I'm waiting on the gravedigger to show up, this is going to the biggest cut franken head I have built sofar.it's going to be atleast 2.75" or bigger.I have drawn it out on paper ,I just need the gravediggers.I will pm you and Dale a pic as soon as I have them put to gather and tested.


----------



## jaysib

until I got my new bow this year I had never calculated my KE. I'm just guessing I was at about 60KE with my last setup.
What does distance do to KE??? I'm guessing it would be different at 20yards compared to 40yards???
The first 3 deer that I shot were all inside 12 yards...I'm guessing this would help on pass thru's compared to 40 yard shots.


----------



## axeforce6

did you or are trying the MX-4?


----------



## 206Moose

jaysib said:


> until I got my new bow this year I had never calculated my KE. I'm just guessing I was at about 60KE with my last setup.
> What does distance do to KE??? I'm guessing it would be different at 20yards compared to 40yards???
> The first 3 deer that I shot were all inside 12 yards...I'm guessing this would help on pass thru's compared to 40 yard shots.


You are correct distance does make KE go down however a heavy arrow will keep KE better than a light one. 

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2


----------



## 206Moose

jaysib said:


> My 4th deer is at the 2:08 point in the video. The arrow didn't completely pass thru but the broadhead was sticking out the other shoulder. The Broadhead snapped off her right side and the nock and fletchings snapped off her left side and we found the rest of the arrow in her in 3 pieces. It probably would have passed all the way thru her if I hadn't put it thru 3 other deer and into the ground 3 times.
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0_GaqQy6nxs&feature=plcp


Nice video but why in the world would you not resharpen your blades. You owe it to your quarry to put it down as quickly and humanely as possible and shooting them with dull blades is just plain stupid. 

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2


----------



## BOWCHIEF

Vipertrick, was it tested? Not seeing it and can't open spreadsheet from this computer. Thanks.


----------



## fatsbucknut

Great thread! Is there anyway you can put your spread sheet on the first page and update it when necessary? I have no idea what page to look on. Thanks


----------



## BOWCHIEF

sethro02 said:


> I need a razortrick and phat sob....pm me plz..thx guys


Seth, you still need a razortrick? I have one I can part with, let me know.


----------



## sethro02

First..havent thiught about mx4..ill see about buying some


2nd...after I have time to send ned250 all the cut surface numbers..by the way if u need them now they are posted on every test.....then I will do advertised cut diameter..if someone once to do retail pricing then by all means thank you but I have enough on my plate with keeping heads straight and making more gel and that kinda stuff.


----------



## sethro02

Yes I need razortrick...pm me plz


----------



## jaysib

NTYMADATER said:


> Nice video but why in the world would you not resharpen your blades. You owe it to your quarry to put it down as quickly and humanely as possible and shooting them with dull blades is just plain stupid.
> 
> Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2


I did put them all down quickly. Only one fell out of site and she only went about 60 yards(green and thick cover).


----------



## sethro02

I will find updated version in a bit


----------



## TimmyZ7

Sethro has anyone sent you a Swhacker yet?


----------



## axeforce6

sethro02 said:


> First..havent thiught about mx4..ill see about buying some
> 
> 
> 2nd...after I have time to send ned250 all the cut surface numbers..by the way if u need them now they are posted on every test.....then I will do advertised cut diameter..if someone once to do retail pricing then by all means thank you but I have enough on my plate with keeping heads straight and making more gel and that kinda stuff.


ok... i have some id send. the blades may be a little dull tho


----------



## Super 91

If the head you send in isn't NIB, don't send it. To keep the test fair and equal, each head should be brand new and straight from the factory, untouched by anyone's hand except Seth's when he is ready for the test.


----------



## buckhunter1

jaysib said:


> My 4th deer is at the 2:08 point in the video. The arrow didn't completely pass thru but the broadhead was sticking out the other shoulder. The Broadhead snapped off her right side and the nock and fletchings snapped off her left side and we found the rest of the arrow in her in 3 pieces. It probably would have passed all the way thru her if I hadn't put it thru 3 other deer and into the ground 3 times.
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0_GaqQy6nxs&feature=plcp




I guess you are a meat hunter. Let them small bucks grow up....


----------



## jaysib

buckhunter1 said:


> I guess you are a meat hunter. Let them small bucks grow up....


I have let the little ones go for years. This is as big as they get in my area. When are you having me down to hunt the big boys with you?


----------



## weekender7

Sethro, THANKS so much for all the hard work and my God bless your understanding wife. She's as angle. I have Viper Tricks and you have a PM.


----------



## MarkBaHoi

JaySib is like the old double bull guys, shooting tomorrow trophies today!


----------



## sethro02

Thx for donation heads..vipertrick..razortrick are coming...pm's answered...timmyz7 I still have no 100 schwacker


----------



## pinski79

jaysib said:


> I have let the little ones go for years. This is as big as they get in my area. QUOTE]
> 
> He's not making this up. Tons of deer but small


----------



## TimmyZ7

sethro02 said:


> Thx for donation heads..vipertrick..razortrick are coming...pm's answered...timmyz7 I still have no 100 schwacker


I have a brand new, never used, never sharpened 100gr 2" Swhacker if you want it pm me the address and I will send it tomorrow.


----------



## screaminbulls1

I just about fell out of my chair when I read that.


MarkBaHoi said:


> JaySib is like the old double bull guys, shooting tomorrow trophies today!


----------



## sethro02

pm's answered


----------



## Fortyneck

xcr 1.5 said:


> How are you figuring the total cut surface?





sethro02 said:


> adding the cutting blades and tip (if it has one) and getting the total.
> 
> example...g5 t3...each blade is 1"...1x3= 3 +.25 tip= 3.25 total cutting surface.





xcr 1.5 said:


> If you had a 1" diameter 3 blade head. Each blade is 1/2". So the total cut is 1.5" right? I cant math today I guess...





qmb9015 said:


> i believe he is doing the cutting surface so each blade is 1" long not 1" from the center and with 3 of them you get 3 and then with the tip having a cutting surface of .25" you get 3.25"





flintwood said:


> The length of the blade is part of the MA ratio, which is the mechanical advantage. It's why you see trad hunters typically using longer heads, the more tapered the blade angle the better the penetration. Some people also claim that a long blade will slice more on the way through compared to how a shorter blade may "punch through" but I don't know if that's been proved.





sethro02 said:


> *their is definately no perfect way to please everyone on this...i kinda think cutting diameter is a little misleading with marketing sometimes*, thats why by me measuring the total portion of that head that will be cutting would put it a little more in perspective on sizd of head and how by looking at the total cut surface by how many inches it penetrated you could tell if big heads did well or small heads did well, or anything in between.


Seth your doing a great job, just wanted to weigh in on the total cut also, I just think it might also be a little misleading to see a 3 blade be listed as having a larger total 

cutting surface than a 4 blade with a larger cut diameter just because the 3 blade is longer. MHO. Thanks again for your effort.


----------



## sethro02

yes i will be adding the cut diameter for those who want to see that...i think depending on how you look at it,,,total cut surface and cut diamter can both be misleading...i myself like to see how much of my broadhead is actually cutting


----------



## Rothhar1

Fortyneck said:


> Seth your doing a great job, just wanted to weigh in on the total cut also, I just think it might also be a little misleading to see a 3 blade be listed as having a larger total
> 
> cutting surface than a 4 blade with a larger cut diameter just because the 3 blade is longer. MHO. Thanks again for your effort.


Simply 4 blades each cut a given amount of flesh just as does a 2 blade and its simple to see that a 4 blad with say 3/4 inch blades will cut say 3 inches total surface cut where a 2 inch two blade will only cut 2 inches of flesh total.


----------



## Fortyneck

Shouldernuke! said:


> Simply 4 blades each cut a given amount of flesh just as does a 2 blade and its simple to see that a 4 blad with say 3/4 inch blades will cut say 3 inches total surface cut where a 2 inch two blade will only cut 2 inches of flesh total.


Agreed.


----------



## sethro02

i completely understand


----------



## NoDeerInIowa

buckhunter1 said:


> I guess you are a meat hunter. Let them small bucks grow up....


Jaysib, buckhunter, please let this topic be about what it is about and if you two want to jave this other discussion, start a new topic or pm one another. This thread is long enough without it, and I'm sure that myself and most others would like to see it stay on topic. Thank you

Sent from my PC36100 using Tapatalk 2


----------



## sethro02

to my i like cutting surface...i have no problem putting all the advertised cutting diameters


----------



## Fortyneck

sethro02 said:


> yes i will be adding the cut diameter for those who want to see that...i think depending on how you look at it,,,total cut surface and cut diamter can both be misleading...i myself like to see how much of my broadhead is actually cutting


Right, I guess I just like to think about how much tissue was actually transected.




sethro02 said:


> to my i like cutting surface...i have no problem putting all the advertised cutting diameters


I mean like, _ and + have the same cut "diameter" (for arguments sake), but + transects twice the tissue as _ , so just listing advertised cutting diameter 

wouldn't show this.


----------



## Bones816

jaysib said:


> My 4th deer is at the 2:08 point in the video. The arrow didn't completely pass thru but the broadhead was sticking out the other shoulder. The Broadhead snapped off her right side and the nock and fletchings snapped off her left side and we found the rest of the arrow in her in 3 pieces. It probably would have passed all the way thru her if I hadn't put it thru 3 other deer and into the ground 3 times.
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0_GaqQy6nxs&feature=plcp


Nice vid but... I can't tell that your arrow went through both shoulder blades. I'll believe you, no reason not to.


----------



## Michael Myers

Just ordered myself 2 Packs of Gravedigger broadheads from No Limit Archery,5 Minutes ago,They will be in my quiver this Fall.Keep up the Fantastic Work Seth,Grizz


----------



## traykool

im lookin forward to the carbon express heads


----------



## sethro02

i cant remember who sent me the cx heads ive been sorting through my hundreds of pm's and cant find it...there are like 5 of em' i think.


----------



## qmb9015

traykool said:


> im lookin forward to the carbon express heads


which carbon express was sent


----------



## sethro02

i'll have to do some more research...im curious how these slick trick standards are gonna stack up against the other slick tricks.... also is slick trick and muzzy kinda like ford or chevy?


----------



## Kb83

sethro02 said:


> i'll have to do some more research...im curious how these slick trick standards are gonna stack up against the other slick tricks.... also is slick trick and muzzy kinda like ford or chevy?


Nah. Neither of them are good enough to be the chevy  lol


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk.


----------



## sethro02

haha, crap i didnt mean to start anything....


----------



## 0nepin

More like old beetle vs new beetle.


----------



## Porkrind

I wouldn't mind seeing a crimson Talon X-System broadhead take the torture test for comparison sake to the Gravedigger.


----------



## brokenlittleman

Porkrind said:


> I wouldn't mind seeing a crimson Talon X-System broadhead take the torture test for comparison sake to the Gravedigger.


Best way to see tested what you want tested is to send it to him.


----------



## goathollow

0nepin said:


> More like old beetle vs new beetle.


m

Now now, no reason to go and get personal:wink:


----------



## qmb9015

Porkrind said:


> I wouldn't mind seeing a crimson Talon X-System broadhead take the torture test for comparison sake to the Gravedigger.


i agree that ould be pretty interestin i say send him one if ya got one


----------



## Kb83

I may have some unused Allen lightning broadheads. Let me check and if your interested I will shoot you a pm if I find them. Would be pretty interesting to see how a $10 pack of broadheads stacks up against the rest of the field. Is it all hype or does more expensive really mean better? 



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk.


----------



## Laplacesdemon

*total cut area calculations/re-scoring*



Fortyneck said:


> Right, I guess I just like to think about how much tissue was actually transected. I mean like, _ and + have the same cut "diameter" (for arguments sake), but + transects twice the tissue as _ , so just listing advertised cutting diameter wouldn't show this.


I concur so I have done the total cut calculations. I have found Seth's test's, and his resulting test data, to be very informative and useful. However, I do have a number of issues with the scoring, particularly when you offer a point total and declare some heads "winners" or "leaders" or "best" based on that scoring system. But Seth is entitled to score any way he wants, as is anyone else who wants to apply their own scoring system to the data.

The link below is my scoring system applied to Seth's data. A few explanations...I have calculated "designed total cut" to be the total maximum cutting area of the head, measured as the cumulative distance each blade entends out from the center axis of the head. Example: GrizzTrick has 4 blades, each extends 5/8 inch from the center, 4x(5/8) = 2.5" total cut. Example 2: Rage Chisel has 2 blades, each extends 1 inch from the center, 2x(1)=2" total cut.

As far as the scoring, I adopted Seth's scores for durability. 

Next, I gave 0-5 points for the size of the entry hole total cut. 

Next, I calculated how many square inches were cut through the test media, by multiplying the distance the head penetrated by how much it was cutting. Note that 10" is the maximum longitudinal distance the heads could cut through the media, since beyond 10" the head leaves the media and is no longer cutting. Since this is, in my opinion, the single most important factor, I allowed the longitudinal total cut area to serve as the points on this element (ranging from about 10 -25 so far)

Next, I gave 0-5 points for the size of the exit hole total cut (if any).

Finally, since some heads had energy left over after the head exited the test media and continued further, I gave 0-5 points for this additional distance.

So, why did I leave out "Dependability"? Because I believe awarding points for the hole it cuts going in, the hole it cuts through, how far it goes through, and the hole it cuts going out is a more effective way of capturing if a head performed. The same heads that lost points on Seth's Durability scores will lose points here for not being fully open or functional at any point.

Why did I leave out sharpness? First, the measure of this score is totally subjective, and second, I only care to the extent the perceived sharpness affects the hole it cuts going in, the hole it cuts through, how far it goes through, or the hole it cuts going out. If head has a degree of sharpness (or lack thereof) that affects performance either way, it will show up in the performance data (and if it doesn't affect the observed performance, I don't care about it).

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AnGgPEMFDKmhdFFzd2d3RGxycmdmTUV5U0hKMWl0cGc


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## Porkrind

Sounds like I'll be picking some of those X-System heads when i get a chance.


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## lmtucker

I think the total cut calculation is reasonable, but not what I have found to be accurate in the real world. I shoot Slick Trick Magnum 100 gr and like them very much. My friend I hunt with shoots Rage 2 in. We have taken three deer apiece on the property we hunt on. We have recovered all six deer. I shot on e of mine a little far back so it was a long track job with very little blood. Not the broadheads fault. My point is both heads work great but the Rage left a much larger blood trail on all three of his deer than my three. I have killed a lot of deer with fix blades and will keep using them. In my experience larger cutting diameter heads leave bigger blood trails regardless of total cut size. I am not sure why. I like the simplicity of my slick tricks and they leave large wound holes with great blood trails. The Rage just leave bigger blood trails. No experience with shoulder hits with either head. 
Thanks Seth for the quality testing.


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## Buckbadger

I think the testing gives a fair comparision between heads on the same type of medium being shot into. Not sure if it's just me, but the three biggest factors I consider from the testing for a good broadhead are accuracy, durability and total pentetration, with total pentetration being a big one. I know total pentetration is not in the overall score which I understand, but a broadhead that pentrates the deepest, will also probably penetrate the deepest on a bad hit, like a shoulder which might be the difference in recovery?

I know the total penetration was entered for those who might consider it? But I wouldn't overlook it, just going on total score, because total penetration can make all the difference at times. Meaning it could fair better at times over higer total scoring heads depending what the head is actually encountering during the shot, Just my opinion, but love the testing, good job.


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## evasiveone

Laplacesdemon said:


> I concur so I have done the total cut calculations. I have found Seth's test's, and his resulting test data, to be very informative and useful. However, I do have a number of issues with the scoring, particularly when you offer a point total and declare some heads "winners" or "leaders" or "best" based on that scoring system. But Seth is entitled to score any way he wants, as is anyone else who wants to apply their own scoring system to the data.
> 
> The link below is my scoring system applied to Seth's data. A few explanations...I have calculated "designed total cut" to be the total maximum cutting area of the head, measured as the cumulative distance each blade entends out from the center axis of the head. Example: GrizzTrick has 4 blades, each extends 5/8 inch from the center, 4x(5/8) = 2.5" total cut. Example 2: Rage Chisel has 2 blades, each extends 1 inch from the center, 2x(1)=2" total cut.
> 
> As far as the scoring, I adopted Seth's scores for durability.
> 
> Next, I gave 0-5 points for the size of the entry hole total cut.
> 
> Next, I calculated how many square inches were cut through the test media, by multiplying the distance the head penetrated by how much it was cutting. Note that 10" is the maximum longitudinal distance the heads could cut through the media, since beyond 10" the head leaves the media and is no longer cutting. Since this is, in my opinion, the single most important factor, I allowed the longitudinal total cut area to serve as the points on this element (ranging from about 10 -25 so far)
> 
> Next, I gave 0-5 points for the size of the exit hole total cut (if any).
> 
> Finally, since some heads had energy left over after the head exited the test media and continued further, I gave 0-5 points for this additional distance.
> 
> So, why did I leave out "Dependability"? Because I believe awarding points for the hole it cuts going in, the hole it cuts through, how far it goes through, and the hole it cuts going out is a more effective way of capturing if a head performed. The same heads that lost points on Seth's Durability scores will lose points here for not being fully open or functional at any point.
> 
> Why did I leave out sharpness? First, the measure of this score is totally subjective, and second, I only care to the extent the perceived sharpness affects the hole it cuts going in, the hole it cuts through, how far it goes through, or the hole it cuts going out. If head has a degree of sharpness (or lack thereof) that affects performance either way, it will show up in the performance data (and if it doesn't affect the observed performance, I don't care about it).
> 
> https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AnGgPEMFDKmhdFFzd2d3RGxycmdmTUV5U0hKMWl0cGc



Absolutely fantastic!!!

Love it. Thank you for taking the time to do this. This shows the exact tissue damage each head does and awards those heads that leave 2 holes for that all important blood trail.

Between both of the spreadsheets these give every person the information they need that they feel is important to them.


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## MarksExtra

evasiveone said:


> Absolutely fantastic!!!
> 
> Love it. Thank you for taking the time to do this. This shows the exact tissue damage each head does and awards those heads that leave 2 holes for that all important blood trail.
> 
> Between both of the spreadsheets these give every person the information they need that they feel is important to them.


I'll second that. Thanks for the additional information that we call all use to make our own decisions.


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## gagodfrey

what ^ he said.


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## gagodfrey

I think this interpretation of the "damage" caused by each broadhead is a little more accurate. Very good. Thanks.


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## sethro02

im still trying to figure out how to take this new spreadsheet thing...im going to first start by saying i appreciate your time and efforts into that because i know how long it would take. this is not going to be part of MY scoring in the end...it is good information so it can be posted thats fine...but when i started this test it was a durability/ open up your pacakage of broaheads and see what you have kinda test...durability, flight, is it sharp, etc. that was my point behind this...i did not put a damage score simply because too many people look at things differntly...i have read through a little and have found 3 errors (to me ) so far...
1. tt raging ulmer ( ulmer with rage blades) is NOT 2" cut....it is 2.25" deployed
2. both meat seekers were mostly closed as they went through gel so how do they get all those points for cut through gel?

still looking over the rest


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## gagodfrey

I agree with you that both sets of data interpretation have value. Sethro's data does a great job of describing the durability and penetration of the heads, while Laplacesdemon's use of Seth's data addresses the damage done by each head. I like both.


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## sethro02

And now I will get a ton of pm's and phone calls on if I changed scoring again...i know for sure their are 4 manufactures watching this closely...i kinda wish you would have let me know your doing this...also people who havent kept up and check every now and then will be confused


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## sethro02

I like both also dont get me wrong...but this will NOT be the determing factor just so everyone is clear


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## 0nepin

Both score sheets are informative , but pic tell the real story and some of the heads that would make the shortest blood trail and cleanest kill did not score very well.it would be nice if sethro could compile all the entry hole ,cut through gel , and exit hole pic in one section.


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## sethro02

I agree with that...i want this simple...you guys decide what bh does the most damage


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## KMD

Laplacesdemon said:


> I concur so I have done the total cut calculations. I have found Seth's test's, and his resulting test data, to be very informative and useful. However, I do have a number of issues with the scoring, particularly when you offer a point total and declare some heads "winners" or "leaders" or "best" based on that scoring system. But Seth is entitled to score any way he wants, as is anyone else who wants to apply their own scoring system to the data.
> 
> The link below is my scoring system applied to Seth's data. A few explanations...I have calculated "designed total cut" to be the total maximum cutting area of the head, measured as the cumulative distance each blade entends out from the center axis of the head. Example: GrizzTrick has 4 blades, each extends 5/8 inch from the center, 4x(5/8) = 2.5" total cut. Example 2: Rage Chisel has 2 blades, each extends 1 inch from the center, 2x(1)=2" total cut.
> 
> As far as the scoring, I adopted Seth's scores for durability.
> 
> Next, I gave 0-5 points for the size of the entry hole total cut.
> 
> Next, I calculated how many square inches were cut through the test media, by multiplying the distance the head penetrated by how much it was cutting. Note that 10" is the maximum longitudinal distance the heads could cut through the media, since beyond 10" the head leaves the media and is no longer cutting. Since this is, in my opinion, the single most important factor, I allowed the longitudinal total cut area to serve as the points on this element (ranging from about 10 -25 so far)
> 
> Next, I gave 0-5 points for the size of the exit hole total cut (if any).
> 
> Finally, since some heads had energy left over after the head exited the test media and continued further, I gave 0-5 points for this additional distance.
> 
> So, why did I leave out "Dependability"? Because I believe awarding points for the hole it cuts going in, the hole it cuts through, how far it goes through, and the hole it cuts going out is a more effective way of capturing if a head performed. The same heads that lost points on Seth's Durability scores will lose points here for not being fully open or functional at any point.
> 
> Why did I leave out sharpness? First, the measure of this score is totally subjective, and second, I only care to the extent the perceived sharpness affects the hole it cuts going in, the hole it cuts through, how far it goes through, or the hole it cuts going out. If head has a degree of sharpness (or lack thereof) that affects performance either way, it will show up in the performance data (and if it doesn't affect the observed performance, I don't care about it).
> 
> https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AnGgPEMFDKmhdFFzd2d3RGxycmdmTUV5U0hKMWl0cGc


Without taking away from the enormous effort that Seth has put forth to collect all the data, I feel your interpretation of said data is OUTSTANDING!

Thank you, sir!


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## 0nepin

This is a man talking about real world experience .And as a blood tracker and hunter I have seen the exact same thing.


lmtucker said:


> I think the total cut calculation is reasonable, but not what I have found to be accurate in the real world. I shoot Slick Trick Magnum 100 gr and like them very much. My friend I hunt with shoots Rage 2 in. We have taken three deer apiece on the property we hunt on. We have recovered all six deer. I shot on e of mine a little far back so it was a long track job with very little blood. Not the broadheads fault. My point is both heads work great but the Rage left a much larger blood trail on all three of his deer than my three. I have killed a lot of deer with fix blades and will keep using them. In my experience larger cutting diameter heads leave bigger blood trails regardless of total cut size. I am not sure why. I like the simplicity of my slick tricks and they leave large wound holes with great blood trails. The Rage just leave bigger blood trails. No experience with shoulder hits with either head.
> Thanks Seth for the quality testing.


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## 206Moose

Laplacesdemon said:


> I concur so I have done the total cut calculations. I have found Seth's test's, and his resulting test data, to be very informative and useful. However, I do have a number of issues with the scoring, particularly when you offer a point total and declare some heads "winners" or "leaders" or "best" based on that scoring system. But Seth is entitled to score any way he wants, as is anyone else who wants to apply their own scoring system to the data.
> 
> The link below is my scoring system applied to Seth's data. A few explanations...I have calculated "designed total cut" to be the total maximum cutting area of the head, measured as the cumulative distance each blade entends out from the center axis of the head. Example: GrizzTrick has 4 blades, each extends 5/8 inch from the center, 4x(5/8) = 2.5" total cut. Example 2: Rage Chisel has 2 blades, each extends 1 inch from the center, 2x(1)=2" total cut.
> 
> As far as the scoring, I adopted Seth's scores for durability.
> 
> Next, I gave 0-5 points for the size of the entry hole total cut.
> 
> Next, I calculated how many square inches were cut through the test media, by multiplying the distance the head penetrated by how much it was cutting. Note that 10" is the maximum longitudinal distance the heads could cut through the media, since beyond 10" the head leaves the media and is no longer cutting. Since this is, in my opinion, the single most important factor, I allowed the longitudinal total cut area to serve as the points on this element (ranging from about 10 -25 so far)
> 
> Next, I gave 0-5 points for the size of the exit hole total cut (if any).
> 
> Finally, since some heads had energy left over after the head exited the test media and continued further, I gave 0-5 points for this additional distance.
> 
> So, why did I leave out "Dependability"? Because I believe awarding points for the hole it cuts going in, the hole it cuts through, how far it goes through, and the hole it cuts going out is a more effective way of capturing if a head performed. The same heads that lost points on Seth's Durability scores will lose points here for not being fully open or functional at any point.
> 
> Why did I leave out sharpness? First, the measure of this score is totally subjective, and second, I only care to the extent the perceived sharpness affects the hole it cuts going in, the hole it cuts through, how far it goes through, or the hole it cuts going out. If head has a degree of sharpness (or lack thereof) that affects performance either way, it will show up in the performance data (and if it doesn't affect the observed performance, I don't care about it).
> 
> https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AnGgPEMFDKmhdFFzd2d3RGxycmdmTUV5U0hKMWl0cGc


You figured out how to make mechs score higher. I'm sticking with Sethros original test. JMHO


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## KMD

NTYMADATER said:


> You figured out how to make mechs score higher. I'm sticking with Sethros original test. JMHO


Not at all. 
The BHs with the most cutting DIAMETER (not length), factored with how they penetrated resulted in higher scores with that data interpretation.

6 of the top 10 are fixed blades, I don't see that as being favorable to mechancials???


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## 206Moose

How many mechs in the top 15 on seths spreadsheet? 1 So yes it does move mechs way up the list.


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## Michael Myers

NTYMADATER said:


> How many mechs in the top 15 on seths spreadsheet? 1 So yes it does move mechs way up the list.


You seem to have a Hate on for Mechanicals?This thread is Made to show what both Mechs and Fixed can do..Each type is getting the Same treatment,Use whichever Scoring Sheet you want but,It comes down to it...It's just a Piece of Paper with numbers,I Believe the Pictures are the Best way to Judge a Head on this thread and real world Stiuations are the Ultimate...Grizz


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## KMD

NTYMADATER said:


> How many mechs in the top 15 on seths spreadsheet? 1 So yes it does move mechs way up the list.


It moves the more decisive & prolific cutting BHs up the list. If those happened to be mechanicals, then so be it. It is simply a more tangible interpretation of how much tissue is being bisected by the blades as they penetrate. 

More bisected tissue = more surface area to bleed from. Factor in TWO holes to leak it out of, and you've found Nirvana!
However, an animal that dies from internal vs. external hemmorhage doesn't run any further, given the same amount of tissue cut. You just might not have the same massive splatter-fied blood trail to follow if it bleeds out inside the body cavity...


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## Norwegian Woods

I must say the most important is that *sethro02* put all broad heads against the same challenge. 
I am not to concerned about different ways of scoring.

The key questions for me when it comes to broad heads are; size of the entry hole, ability to break/penetrate bone, tissue damage, penetration, size of the exit hole and how intact the broad head is after it has stopped.

We can all score different aspects of it according to what we think is more important.
This will also depend very much on what animals we hunt, and what KE and Momentum our set up gives us.

You are doing a great job with your testing *sethro02*!


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## Ned250

I've refreshed the spreadsheet with some more cut surface data and added a cut diameter column. Also updated a few of the results links.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AgJEvQwzfDRZdGxzdC15R0JIZDJGQ1J4bVpGV1pTWHc


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## sethro02

Thx guys...


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## sethro02

Ned u get my email?


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## 206Moose

KMD said:


> It moves the more decisive & prolific cutting BHs up the list. If those happened to be mechanicals, then so be it. It is simply a more tangible interpretation of how much tissue is being bisected by the blades as they penetrate.
> 
> More bisected tissue = more surface area to bleed from. Factor in TWO holes to leak it out of, and you've found Nirvana!
> However, an animal that dies from internal vs. external hemmorhage doesn't run any further, given the same amount of tissue cut. You just might not have the same massive splatter-fied blood trail to follow if it bleeds out inside the body cavity...


So now you agree with me it does make mechs score higher. I think he should start another thread with his interpretation of the data and leave this one to sethro.


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## 206Moose

GrizzlyMan1980 said:


> You seem to have a Hate on for Mechanicals?This thread is Made to show what both Mechs and Fixed can do..Each type is getting the Same treatment,Use whichever Scoring Sheet you want but,It comes down to it...It's just a Piece of Paper with numbers,I Believe the Pictures are the Best way to Judge a Head on this thread and real world Stiuations are the Ultimate...Grizz


We both have opinions and I agree anyone can interpret the data as he sees fit I just happen to prefer sethros spreadsheet. Sorry if that upsets you.


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## MarkBaHoi

qmb9015 said:


> which carbon express was sent


A cheap 3 blade, cheap over the top expandable, TX4, nativ, and quadpro (I might have forgot to send the nativ, if I did I'll get one out quick)


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## Sivart

I do feel that the mechanicals should get a little higher score on flight, as it's safe to say that mechanicals are much easier to get to fly like a fieldpoint on average. No to say that fix blades cannot have good flight, just not nearly as easy as a mechanical esp when shooting over 290 fps.


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## Michael Myers

NTYMADATER said:


> We both have opinions and I agree anyone can interpret the data as he sees fit I just happen to prefer sethros spreadsheet. Sorry if that upsets you.


Doesnt upset me,I Havent looked at any of the Other Sheets,And yes everybody has there own opinion,Which is fine with me,I Have only been keeping up with Seths Scores...But all in all i am not judging any head from a Scorable piece of Paper,For me the Pictures of Seths Test do the Tests more justice then a Sheet with numbers on it.


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## sethro02

Like I said this is making it more confusing for peoole who chk this every now and them


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## 206Moose

sethro02 said:


> Like I said this is making it more confusing for peoole who chk this every now and them


I agree other spreadsheet should be moved to another thread or be deleted. Afterall this is sethros data. I'm not so sure I would want someone else messing with my hard work. Especially without first asking permission.


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## qmb9015

sethro02 said:


> Like I said this is making it more confusing for peoole who chk this every now and them


shoot i got confused and all i did was wake up. last night i was up to date and i check pretty regularly. I think that this other spreadsheet should have its own thread. this other spreadsheet needs to have the formulas taken off of it so that its easier to look at


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## sethro02

It moved both meat seekers towards the top and they werent even open all the way in gel...i agree with starting a different thread for your spreadsheet


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## Bowhuntr64

sethro02 said:


> It moved both meat seekers towards the top and they werent even open all the way in gel...i agree with starting a different thread for your spreadsheet


Good comment. I have had two meat seekers do the exact same thing on animals I have shot: they simply did not open inside the animal. Your testing showed this and any tabulation of the information should represent this. That being said, I like seeing as many ways of interpreting the information as possible, but perhaps a different thread is a good idea.


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## GarrickTX

Sivart said:


> I do feel that the mechanicals should get a little higher score on flight, as it's safe to say that mechanicals are much easier to get to fly like a fieldpoint on average. No to say that fix blades cannot have good flight, just not nearly as easy as a mechanical esp when shooting over 290 fps.


As long as your bow is tuned and you have a well made BH, whether it be mech or fixed, your arrows should all group together.

And when I say tuned I actually mean tuned.... NOT moving the sight to hit where your BHs are! Actually moving the rest/ knock position to make the BH hit where your FPs do. You should probably check into that for your prey's sake.


----------



## goathollow

Laplacesdemon said:


> I concur so I have done the total cut calculations. I have found Seth's test's, and his resulting test data, to be very informative and useful. However, I do have a number of issues with the scoring, particularly when you offer a point total and declare some heads "winners" or "leaders" or "best" based on that scoring system. But Seth is entitled to score any way he wants, as is anyone else who wants to apply their own scoring system to the data.
> 
> The link below is my scoring system applied to Seth's data. A few explanations...I have calculated "designed total cut" to be the total maximum cutting area of the head, measured as the cumulative distance each blade entends out from the center axis of the head. Example: GrizzTrick has 4 blades, each extends 5/8 inch from the center, 4x(5/8) = 2.5" total cut. Example 2: Rage Chisel has 2 blades, each extends 1 inch from the center, 2x(1)=2" total cut.
> 
> As far as the scoring, I adopted Seth's scores for durability.
> 
> Next, I gave 0-5 points for the size of the entry hole total cut.
> 
> Next, I calculated how many square inches were cut through the test media, by multiplying the distance the head penetrated by how much it was cutting. Note that 10" is the maximum longitudinal distance the heads could cut through the media, since beyond 10" the head leaves the media and is no longer cutting. Since this is, in my opinion, the single most important factor, I allowed the longitudinal total cut area to serve as the points on this element (ranging from about 10 -25 so far)
> 
> Next, I gave 0-5 points for the size of the exit hole total cut (if any).
> 
> Finally, since some heads had energy left over after the head exited the test media and continued further, I gave 0-5 points for this additional distance.
> 
> So, why did I leave out "Dependability"? Because I believe awarding points for the hole it cuts going in, the hole it cuts through, how far it goes through, and the hole it cuts going out is a more effective way of capturing if a head performed. The same heads that lost points on Seth's Durability scores will lose points here for not being fully open or functional at any point.
> 
> Why did I leave out sharpness? First, the measure of this score is totally subjective, and second, I only care to the extent the perceived sharpness affects the hole it cuts going in, the hole it cuts through, how far it goes through, or the hole it cuts going out. If head has a degree of sharpness (or lack thereof) that affects performance either way, it will show up in the performance data (and if it doesn't affect the observed performance, I don't care about it).
> 
> https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AnGgPEMFDKmhdFFzd2d3RGxycmdmTUV5U0hKMWl0cGc



Well I have a couple of serious problems with this scoring system. I will apologize upfront for sounding defensive but at the moment I'm a bit ticked off. Until this thread appeared I'd never hear of Seth Adkins and never met him. However, I did have the privilege of meeting him and spending a couple hours this week observing Seth conduct his test; and talk with him personally about what *he* was trying to accomplish with the test. I also witnessed first hand his committment to staying with it despite how it has grown out of control; the enormous amout of time he is putting in (I was there 2 hours and we were able to test four (4) heads and that was not including posting the info to AT); the sacrifice his family is making and the money he is investing. I also saw first hand his committment to providing unbiased data. When I sense anyone calling Seth's work in to question I tend to get a bit testy. I don't suppose Seth needs my help, and he's certainly not asked for it, but I feel compelled to stand up for him because he is trying so hard to perserve the objectivity of his testing and provide ATer's with some valuable unbiased (for a change) information on which they can make some decisions.

My first issue with Laplacesdemon's work is that he took someone else's hard work and data and used that information to create his own test results. While its probably perfectly legal (I don't believe the test results are protected by copywrite) at the very least he should have asked permission first. That simply isn't right. You simply don't borrow someone elses stuff without their permission. I've tried diplomatically to say it several times when people have questioned the testing or the results; if you think it can be done better, or if you think it should be done differently step up like Seth did and do your own testing. Hindsight is always 20/20 and its easy to pick apart someone else's work. Likewise, it is in my opinion, a lazy man's approach to take someone elses work and represent it as your own.

Second, Laplacesdemon, manipulated Seth's data to create a desired outcome. Seth's test was NOT designed to gauge what Laplacesdemon is reporting. Furthermore, Seth's data was simply reported as seen it has not been manipulated in any way. Granted, there is some subjectivity to a couple of the scores but within the confines of the testing medium and the resources at his disposal, Seth been as unbiased as he can possibly be. 

Third, and maybe most importantly, by manipulating data Laplacesdemon had no right to manipulate and publish, he will create doubt in someone elses hard work. In my mind that is unconscionable.


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## GarrickTX

^^^ I agree. He deffinitely should have asked permission, and if you wanted to add a new dynamic to the test without doing it yourself you should have had atleast the small decency to start a new thread just for that and give credit to the findings to the one who has spent all the time getting the data together. Just wasn't respectful


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## 5263LL

New Rages .... Nocking them DOWN


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## jaysib

Sethro or anyone. Is it possible to melt down the gel and reuse it?


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## sethro02

Thank you goathollow...that new published sheet is not what im going for here...this is discrediting my 100 plus hours of broadhead durability testing with this documentation


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## sethro02

You can melt it back down with hot water but I belive it just makes it weaker..


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## goathollow

sethro02 said:


> Thank you goathollow...that new published sheet is not what im going for here...this is discrediting my 100 plus hours of broadhead durability testing with this documentation


You are most welcome. You and the work you have done deserves more respect than what you are getting from some folks on here. Hang in there and stay the course!!


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## jsbhunter

Everyone has their own interpretation of the test results. Seth keep up the good work, in my opinion your effort speaks for itself.


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## Michael Myers

goathollow said:


> You are most welcome. You and the work you have done deserves more respect than what you are getting from some folks on here. Hang in there and stay the course!!


X2!!!!...Thanks for all your Time,Money and Effort,This Guy appreciates it..Grizz


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## Masheen76

I've followed this thread from the beginning. 
I, like so many others have a great appreciation for Seths' efforts and hard work. While I get the impression that the work some people have put into re-calculating data to form what they feel is a more conclusive format comes from a good place, it really just serves to undermine Seths' efforts IMHO. I am not trying to be argumentative here, I just feel this man is putting in HIS time, effort, money and sacrifice to give us as subjective a test as he can. By taking his commitment and manipulating it to your own formula, and then posting it on HIS test thread you've (albiet unintentionally) taken a crap on his extreme dedication.
Again, this is not to cause a pissing match. But if someone feels compelled enough to call into question the validity of this test and following data, simply create your own test and formulate your own scoring and then apply YOUR OWN effort.


----------



## TimmyZ7

Seriously guys, some of you are surrounding Seth like a pack of pitbulls ready to bite anyone who questions or offers an alternative approach. First off, I have not seen Seth ask anyone at all to fight his battles or answer for him. He seems to respond just fine on his own so I don't hold anything against him. I do recall Seth initially asking for different types of wood as well as other suggestions. Obviously, he was concerned with making a test for fellow members with an open mind for making it fair. He is a grown man and has made decisions as to what he will accept and what he will not. Being aggressive toward anyone for continuing to make suggestions is wrong. I agree some suggestions that alter results should first be direct to Seth in a p.m. but that still doesn't make it right to pounce on someone who probably had good intentions, since he took the time to punch in all the numbers, and thought sharing would help. 

As I have stated before, I have donated many heads to testers and have supported their efforts to display the limitations of each broadhead. These other testers ******, Brdymakr and many others are always bombarded by negative responses as well but never resort to returning disrespectful responses such as can be seen on this thread. It has turned away many contributors and many members with honest questions. I don't blame Sethro at all because it is not him attacking or endorsing this behavior. Every time someone asks him a question, before Sethro can answer, someone else jumps in and accuses them of being unappreciative of Sethro's family, his hard work, etc. It is over the top sensitivity that is pushing more contributors away so if you think you are protecting his resources you are actually compromising them by deterring more support.

Sethro, you seem like you are committed to offering as fair a test as possible and your commitment makes you a great asset to AT in my opinion. I appreciate your efforts and wish you continued support. As a result, I am sending the Swhacker today and looking for others to send as well. Also, as a Grim Reaper customer I contacted them personally and shared this thread with them, just as I have with QAD, Slick Trick and others for other testers, and I received a response that they are willing to contribute and supposedly have sent a rep to speak to you concerning this. Again, good luck to you.


----------



## sethro02

Thx guys yes I spoke with grim reaper...i want this thread to stay exactly how it has been...im not changing things this far into it...maybe we can do a tissue damage only test but in the mean time...my test stays the same


----------



## Masheen76

I think everyone has an opinion on Seths' efforts, and nobody has taken offense to questions or suggestions that have been offered. The issue has become the manipulation of his data. I don't have an overwhelming urge to protect Seth, but this test and data are his. If someone would like something "altered", contact the man himself via PM. It's simply bad form to take it upon ones self to post an idea on his thread and for the moat part call it more conclusive. 
This test is for us all, take what you want and form your own opinion. That is exactly what Seth intended I think.
And talk is cheap, Seth PM your paypal please. I'll. Ante up and kick in.


----------



## Cannonball08

Masheen76 said:


> I've followed this thread from the beginning.
> I, like so many others have a great appreciation for Seths' efforts and hard work. While I get the impression that the work some people have put into re-calculating data to form what they feel is a more conclusive format comes from a good place, it really just serves to undermine Seths' efforts IMHO. I am not trying to be argumentative here, I just feel this man is putting in HIS time, effort, money and sacrifice to give us as subjective a test as he can. By taking his commitment and manipulating it to your own formula, and then posting it on HIS test thread you've (albiet unintentionally) taken a crap on his extreme dedication.
> Again, this is not to cause a pissing match. But if someone feels compelled enough to call into question the validity of this test and following data, simply create your own test and formulate your own scoring and then apply YOUR OWN effort.


Good post! I agree and thanks Seth for doing these test they reassured the reason I'm using VPA heads this year!

Chad


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## Kb83

I think everyone just needs to shut up an let the situation drop before this thing takes a wrong turn and gets locked. I would hate to see all his hard work wasted because some jackwagons couldn't let it go. Seth said his piece and stated his wishes. Let's get back on topic. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk.


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## nolimitarchery

I,m sorry but Laplacesdemon spread sheet is way out of wack. Again my head is still at the top so I feel I can chime in.

In the total cut area through all media. These are numbers not actual damage done. The Meat Seeker didn't open, So that would be a zero. That is just one, there are others that either lost a blade or 2 but still got full points for what they were supposed to do.
Pass through. It either left a hole or not.
Pass through distance. It is either through or not, he is giving points for air travel.
Pass through bonus. He is giving more points for air travel.
No dependability points.

His points are paper points not actual points. This is a simple test with simple easy to understand data. If we went by picking the data we want to include or exclude then this test wouldn't even be close. Every person could make whatever head they wanted to win, win. I know I could without trying.

It is very disrespectful to take someones work and change it without permission. The idea is to draw your own conclusion about your own broadhead of choice. JMO

Dale


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## Cannonball08

Kb83 said:


> I think everyone just needs to shut up
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk.


If that is directed toward me shoot me a PM


----------



## goathollow

TimmyZ7 said:


> Seriously guys, some of you are surrounding Seth like a pack of pitbulls ready to bite anyone who questions or offers an alternative approach. First off, I have not seen Seth ask anyone at all to fight his battles or answer for him. He seems to respond just fine on his own so I don't hold anything against him. I do recall Seth initially asking for different types of wood as well as other suggestions. Obviously, he was concerned with making a test for fellow members with an open mind for making it fair. He is a grown man and has made decisions as to what he will accept and what he will not. Being aggressive toward anyone for continuing to make suggestions is wrong. I agree some suggestions that alter results should first be direct to Seth in a p.m. but that still doesn't make it right to pounce on someone who probably had good intentions, since he took the time to punch in all the numbers, and thought sharing would help.
> 
> As I have stated before, I have donated many heads to testers and have supported their efforts to display the limitations of each broadhead. These other testers ******, Brdymakr and many others are always bombarded by negative responses as well but never resort to returning disrespectful responses such as can be seen on this thread. It has turned away many contributors and many members with honest questions. I don't blame Sethro at all because it is not him attacking or endorsing this behavior. Every time someone asks him a question, before Sethro can answer, someone else jumps in and accuses them of being unappreciative of Sethro's family, his hard work, etc. It is over the top sensitivity that is pushing more contributors away so if you think you are protecting his resources you are actually compromising them by deterring more support.
> 
> Sethro, you seem like you are committed to offering as fair a test as possible and your commitment makes you a great asset to AT in my opinion. I appreciate your efforts and wish you continued support. As a result, I am sending the Swhacker today and looking for others to send as well. Also, as a Grim Reaper customer I contacted them personally and shared this thread with them, just as I have with QAD, Slick Trick and others for other testers, and I received a response that they are willing to contribute and supposedly have sent a rep to speak to you concerning this. Again, good luck to you.


Oddly enough about your pitbull comment...I was kinda thinking the same thing about those who were jumping in to attack the work he as done...except that aninmal that came to my mind was a vulture. As for your other coments, I have no problem with honest questions and inquiries that are intended toward learning. I do have a problem with people manipulating other peoples work towards their own end. As for the other broadhead test threads, I would have felt the same way had I seen them. I am glad you have contributed heads to the test, I think its a good thing. Curious though, what prompted you to notify Grim Reaper, QAD, Slick Trick and others...just bein helpful I suppose!


----------



## Kb83

Cannonball08 said:


> If that is directed toward me shoot me a PM


Not directed towards anyone in specific just do not want to see his hard work and money wasted because the mods get tired of seeing multiple pages of arguing. If you took it personal I apologize wasn't meant that way. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk.


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## Masheen76

I think we're all good here fellas. Just healthy respectful discussions. Difference of opinion isn't a bad thing, just keep it respectful and let's enjoy the test.


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## chaded

One of the things I have learned on AT is that broadheads make people crazy! I commend sethro once again for his commitment to this test. Every test I have seen like this always gets out of hand which is sad for the people that enjoy them. Keep up the good work seth!


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## MarkBaHoi

Sethro02, You open the CX shipment yet? If I didn't send that native I want to get it in the mail by tomorrow!


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## eltaco

I like the way these are being scored right now. The scoring and pictures tell me a lot about performance thru the test medium.

A carnage score is hard to do. Technically, an 8 blade 1" cut broadhead would have TONS of cutting surface, but would only be minimally more useful in the field than a 3 or 4 blade with the same cut diameter, IMO... although it would "score" higher. Penetration is key to this test, and I think paints the picture very accurately.


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## sethro02

I did open it but only seen cx I think


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## sethro02

Ill chk when I get home


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## goathollow

Kb83 said:


> I think everyone just needs to shut up an let the situation drop before this thing takes a wrong turn and gets locked. I would hate to see all his hard work wasted because some jackwagons couldn't let it go. Seth said his piece and stated his wishes. Let's get back on topic.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk.


I believe I agree. The point has been made...let's turn the thread back to Seth and see some more test results (when he's ready of course!!)


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## TimmyZ7

Swhacker will be there Monday! I contacted Grim Reaper because there are some manufactures here that are contributing and able to speak on their products performance. If I were a manufacture and seen my customers donating heads to protect my reputation I would feel compelled to send broadheads and provide an honest response to the test. Ultimately it supports Sethro's efforts.


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## Buckbadger

Not really familiar with the Smoke Ramcat, but on the speedsheet it's listed as fixed, thought is was an expandable?


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## pinski79

goathollow said:


> I believe I agree. The point has been made...let's turn the thread back to Seth and see some more test results (when he's ready of course!!)


word


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## ole' bowhunter

I must be missing something. I thought Seth started this test and was doing it not only for his own information but was sharing it with all of us AT'ers for our information and benefit as well. He has and is putting a lot of hard work into this test, (though, I'm thinking at first it was probably fun), and I can't imagine the expense of the project. Plus, I'd almost bet, being a married man myself, he's taking some flack from Mama by this time. I hope he won't get discouraged and give up before it's completed because of all our quibbling over, "my head performs better than that or my Rage is better than your ST or the test should include this or that or some other complaint". Sure, this is just a test but it's one of the best I've seen on AT since I've been a member.

While still on this rant, I want to applaud Ned250 for his skills and time he has sacrificed to give us the Spread sheet with the results of Seth's test and updating it so an olebowhunter, like me, can easily see how my head of choice compared with yours. (Right now my head of choice is in 13th place but only 3 points out of 1st.)

I'm done.


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## UTGrad

TimmyZ7 said:


> Swhacker will be there Monday! I contacted Grim Reaper because there are some manufactures here that are contributing and able to speak on their products performance. If I were a manufacture and seen my customers donating heads to protect my reputation I would feel compelled to send broadheads and provide an honest response to the test. Ultimately it supports Sethro's efforts.


Grim Reaper knows there product works. I'd be surprised if they send any heads.


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## x-force2011

First. Thank you Seth and to your family for the time and effort you have dedicated to this project! This is the best broadhead test I have seen.
Second. Could someone post the "Seth Approved" spreadsheet. I would like to look at it. Not sure the one I found is accurate.


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## sethro02

Utgrad...grim reaper is sending new whitetail specials...they think the one I had has a collar issue...i will reshoot them but score will not count...

Ned250 could you post the spreadsheet again or tell me how to login to check it and post it? I know your busy thanks


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## Bigbuck5

Have Schwacker broadheads been tested yet? Thanks!


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## Ned250

Buckbadger said:


> Not really familiar with the Smoke Ramcat, but on the speedsheet it's listed as fixed, thought is was an expandable?


You're right. I fixed it. 

This is why I locked down the sheet. This stuff got way outta wack the other day with so many people sorting it 15 different ways. I had to basically rebuild it. Sorry I missed this one.


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## Ned250

sethro02 said:


> Utgrad...grim reaper is sending new whitetail specials...they think the one I had has a collar issue...i will reshoot them but score will not count...
> 
> Ned250 could you post the spreadsheet again or tell me how to login to check it and post it? I know your busy thanks


Here's the latest - https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AgJEvQwzfDRZdGxzdC15R0JIZDJGQ1J4bVpGV1pTWHc

I gave you admin rights to the sheet. I think you might have to log in to Google using your email address you gave me.


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## Ned250

UTGrad said:


> Grim Reaper knows there product works. I'd be surprised if they send any heads.


I'd be surprised if any manufacturer was contacted about this test and *didn't *send at least 1 head to demo. I'd think if they truly stood behind their product, they'd take this as a huge opportunity to grab the attention of a lot of die hard bow hunters that are analyzing this data.


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## UTGrad

sethro02 said:


> Utgrad...grim reaper is sending new whitetail specials...they think the one I had has a collar issue...i will reshoot them but score will not count...
> 
> Ned250 could you post the spreadsheet again or tell me how to login to check it and post it? I know your busy thanks


Well I stand corrected. I do want to see how the WS performs.


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## roughneck1

Can't find the grave digger test. Can anybody tell me what post # it was?


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## kdog23

sethro02 said:


> It moved both meat seekers towards the top and they werent even open all the way in gel...i agree with starting a different thread for your spreadsheet


I like the format of the new spreadsheet, it is just another way to cut the data which is what researchers do. another thread or here for discussion does not bother me, but the meatseeker issue does need to be adressed as they were closed in the gel.

I also like how this takes more of the penetration into account which for me is a huge factor.


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## E.J.

roughneck1 said:


> Can't find the grave digger test. Can anybody tell me what post # it was?


Page 36


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## kdog23

goathollow said:


> Well I have a couple of serious problems with this scoring system. I will apologize upfront for sounding defensive but at the moment I'm a bit ticked off. Until this thread appeared I'd never hear of Seth Adkins and never met him. However, I did have the privilege of meeting him and spending a couple hours this week observing Seth conduct his test; and talk with him personally about what *he* was trying to accomplish with the test. I also witnessed first hand his committment to staying with it despite how it has grown out of control; the enormous amout of time he is putting in (I was there 2 hours and we were able to test four (4) heads and that was not including posting the info to AT); the sacrifice his family is making and the money he is investing. I also saw first hand his committment to providing unbiased data. When I sense anyone calling Seth's work in to question I tend to get a bit testy. I don't suppose Seth needs my help, and he's certainly not asked for it, but I feel compelled to stand up for him because he is trying so hard to perserve the objectivity of his testing and provide ATer's with some valuable unbiased (for a change) information on which they can make some decisions.
> 
> My first issue with Laplacesdemon's work is that he took someone else's hard work and data and used that information to create his own test results. While its probably perfectly legal (I don't believe the test results are protected by copywrite) at the very least he should have asked permission first. That simply isn't right. You simply don't borrow someone elses stuff without their permission. I've tried diplomatically to say it several times when people have questioned the testing or the results; if you think it can be done better, or if you think it should be done differently step up like Seth did and do your own testing. Hindsight is always 20/20 and its easy to pick apart someone else's work. Likewise, it is in my opinion, a lazy man's approach to take someone elses work and represent it as your own.
> 
> Second, Laplacesdemon, manipulated Seth's data to create a desired outcome. Seth's test was NOT designed to gauge what Laplacesdemon is reporting. Furthermore, Seth's data was simply reported as seen it has not been manipulated in any way. Granted, there is some subjectivity to a couple of the scores but within the confines of the testing medium and the resources at his disposal, Seth been as unbiased as he can possibly be.
> 
> Third, and maybe most importantly, by manipulating data Laplacesdemon had no right to manipulate and publish, he will create doubt in someone elses hard work. In my mind that is unconscionable.


I disagree, people in research, which I have been a part of for many years, use data sets, sometimes their own and sometimes someone elses, (should they ask for permission? yes absolutely) unless it is public knowedge data as this is (given that is published over the web for anyone to read. and has not had any copyright or anything else placed upon it.) Should he have asked, if you ask me yes, but there is nothing wrong with looking at he data from different angles, read any academic or scientific journal and you will see that this kind of thing happens all the time. In fact this is encourged in those circles. If sethro had intended to profit by this, which is his right and he is doing a fabulous job, he should have stated such and stated that he wanted copyright protection, he would have had to alter the method a bit to do this, plus he stated from the outset and maintained through the thread that he is just doing this to bring more data to the archery world. in that spirit there should be no protective posturing. 

Now had this person (and I don't know him) claimed he was creating his own data, from his own testing then he would be plagerizing, but since he has made it clear that he is using existing data from another source he is not plagerizing, nor profiting or doing anything other than looking at the data from another angle. Many researchers actually encourage this as the more you look and from different persectives the more you might be able to get closer to the "truth". however that might be defined.

Sethro you are doing a great job and most including me are very greatful for your efforts, as you have stated before others will come to thier own conclusions but this does not take anything away from what you are doing! I also agree that dependability is a huge factor here. that also needs some weight, especially for heads that either break, don't open, partial open or some other variation.


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## sethro02

Schwackers not tested yet...i understand how his spreadsheet took in consideration the penetration more but their is no way to plz everyone..the spreadsheet of mine has total penetration as well...im looking at this test as a comparative analysis not who is gonna be in first place or last place..its your broadhead vs my contraption


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## sethro02

He completely changed the scoring..therefore he should start his own thread to do a cut tissue damage thread...this test has gotten blown out of proportion of its original meaning..i have kicked in almost $1500 for all materials and im wanting this test to stay how it is right now...like I said in the future I could do a tissue damage test...for now this isnt really what im doing in this test


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## K Baird

Seth, great thread. I've spent the last few days reading through the whole thing and finally caught up. I appologize if I missed anything, but I see you said you switched to the new Injexions. Would it be possible for you to test any of the new Deep Six broadheads if they were sent to you? 

Also, for anyone else, is there any new word on other Deep Six broadheads coming out besides the NAP's and one Muzzy, I believe? Like an Ulmer or Gravedigger?!?!  Made the switch recently and this test has me kind of nervous with the regular NAP results.


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## UTGrad

sethro02 said:


> He completely changed the scoring..therefore he should start his own thread to do a cut tissue damage thread...this test has gotten blown out of proportion of its original meaning..i have kicked in almost $1500 for all materials and im wanting this test to stay how it is right now...like I said in the future I could do a tissue damage test...for now this isnt really what im doing in this test


Seth

People spend thousands even millions of dollars of their own money to run for a political office and they get character assassinated all day long. Keep up the good work and having some critics is part of the process. You don't need to hold over everyone's head how much you are spending. No one is making you take the time and money to do this project. I humbly suggest to not use how much time and effort you spend in this test as a defense. Instead keep on telling critics, including myself, to simply use the head they want. They don't have to subscribe to the thread.


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## gdouty

I think Seth is doing a great service to all of us hunters, but what is the point of a "Flight" result calculation if every broadhead scores perfect. I know for a fact that several of the bh's in the test do not fly perfect. Personally, I think Flight and Sharpness should be left out beause flight is subject to bow setup and sharpness is subject to interpretation...Unless you actually tried to cut something with the blade before and after the test, like say a piece of paper, or the ballistics gel...

With that said, I am not expecting it to be changed, I just remove them myself from the calculations when I look at the scores. Seth has done enough to appease the public thusfar and frankly I think he has been too nice in letting others change the way testing is scored. I think the scoring system was better before we starting talking about a "damage score".


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## Whitey375

jaysib said:


> Sethro or anyone. Is it possible to melt down the gel and reuse it?


Yes it is. Using a double boiler type of set up. Just don't let it get hotter than 130°. As long as you test it before use, to make a consistency judgement, it's usually fine.


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## sethro02

Schwackers not tested yet...i understand how his spreadsheet took in consideration the penetration more but their is no way to plz everyone..the spreadsheet of mine has total penetration as well...im looking at this test as a comparative analysis not who is gonna be in first place or last place..its your broadhead vs my contraption


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## sethro02

Didnt mean to double post....not holding it over anyones head utgrad and quiet honestly after you starting the anti broadhead test about what I was doing I quit paying attention to what you say.

Can we plz talk about something that pertains to my test..

I didnt switch to Injextiins...i just bought a few and put vap outserts on them...i will however be testing a tt ulmer deep six from rusty


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## K Baird

Awesome! Good to hear. Didn't know there was a Deep Six Ulmer. Looking forward to the test.


----------



## huntin4Christ

Seth, just keep on doin what you are doin. MOST of us appreciate it and realize that you are not running for political office (as this was compared to). I appreciate very much the amount of time and expense you have gone to in passing all your information onto us here. 

God bless


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## 0nepin

Almost 100,000 views.sethro you are the man!!! And I hope more people will realize how much time and $$$ you have spent for our benefit . Thank. Bud!!!


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## sethro02

Ur welcome...deep six ulmer will be stainless 125 grain I think...really want to test heads tonight...gotta chk with boss


----------



## Super 91

I say either donate a test subject head, or PayPal Seth a quick $20-25 for his materials and efforts. What do you say guys? I know some have done both, but this is VERY informative, and regardless of the varying opinions, this is one of the best testing threads ever produced on AT. I know Seth now feels somewhat obligated to keep going to test the different requested heads. Let's at least help him out with some of the expense. He's racking up quite a bill and at his expense and our enjoyment.


----------



## Boghdóir

One thing I haven't seen brought up is how little the German Kinetic penetrated. I thought that thing would have gone through the test, the back target and into the wall.
I have been reading this start to finish and don't think I missed any posts, so maybe people aren't as surprised as me. I can't wait for the Solid test, and the Razor Trick. I have a fiance that shoots a 40 lb bow, so I an looking for the big penetration scores!


----------



## 0nepin

Sethro when all of this regular testing is done and you have took some time off maybe you could do a franken head show down and for testing I will send you my 86lb omen and 509gr fmj arrows.test medium would be vinyl 1/4" plywood gel then a gallon of cornsyerp .and time how long it takes to for the gallon to drain.maybe this would be good for your YouTube channel.Jk or not.


----------



## 0nepin

Boghdóir said:


> One thing I haven't seen brought up is how little the German Kinetic penetrated. I thought that thing would have gone through the test, the back target and into the wall.
> I have been reading this start to finish and don't think I missed any posts, so maybe people aren't as surprised as me. I can't wait for the Solid test, and the Razor Trick. I have a fiance that shoots a 40 lb bow, so I an looking for the big penetration scores!


I was a little suprized and I was just as suprized at how much bigger the entry hole was from the ray Charles then the majority of heads in this test.


----------



## Ned250

roughneck1 said:


> Can't find the grave digger test. Can anybody tell me what post # it was?


Most of the heads have a link (far right column) that links you directly to the test results/pic - https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AgJEvQwzfDRZdGxzdC15R0JIZDJGQ1J4bVpGV1pTWHc


----------



## chirohunter73

I was also surprised by the german kinetic. I was real close to pulling the trigger on those for the broadhead of choice this year, but I think i will buy a pack of Gravediggers and some rage's and start bothering Onepin on how to modify them!!!! :wink:


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## chirohunter73

are there any heads out there that people want to see. I am in the process of moving this week but I could go to my local stores and see if I could find a pack of ones that people still want to see? LMK


----------



## Boghdóir

If I shot Onepins bow, I would just use bludgeons.


----------



## BoonROTO

Great thread! I appreciate your efforts!


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## sethro02

Thx guys!


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## TimmyZ7

This would be a good time for the s30v Solid Broadhead to put up!


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## sethro02

Their is a test tonight!!!!!!!!!


----------



## BILLDOGGE

sethro02 said:


> Their is a test tonight!!!!!!!!!


Best news all day!


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## sethro02

Yes for sure....so far slick trick standard and magnus buzzcut...


----------



## 0nepin

I can't wait for the gravedigger to show up so I can put together the CLOSED CASKET!!!! I'm really going to push the limits on this one.this head will be for 100lb ke.plus.


----------



## 0nepin

chirohunter73 said:


> I was also surprised by the german kinetic. I was real close to pulling the trigger on those for the broadhead of choice this year, but I think i will buy a pack of Gravediggers and some rage's and start bothering Onepin on how to modify them!!!! :wink:


you would not be bothering me at all.


----------



## sethro02

here we go! Round 6 fixed heads:
1. slick trick standard
2 magnus buzzcut
3. carbon express xt 4 blade
Make your predictions!


----------



## MarksExtra

kdog23 said:


> I disagree, people in research, which I have been a part of for many years, use data sets, sometimes their own and sometimes someone elses, (should they ask for permission? yes absolutely) unless it is public knowedge data as this is (given that is published over the web for anyone to read. and has not had any copyright or anything else placed upon it.) Should he have asked, if you ask me yes, but there is nothing wrong with looking at he data from different angles, read any academic or scientific journal and you will see that this kind of thing happens all the time. In fact this is encourged in those circles. If sethro had intended to profit by this, which is his right and he is doing a fabulous job, he should have stated such and stated that he wanted copyright protection, he would have had to alter the method a bit to do this, plus he stated from the outset and maintained through the thread that he is just doing this to bring more data to the archery world. in that spirit there should be no protective posturing.
> 
> Now had this person (and I don't know him) claimed he was creating his own data, from his own testing then he would be plagerizing, but since he has made it clear that he is using existing data from another source he is not plagerizing, nor profiting or doing anything other than looking at the data from another angle. Many researchers actually encourage this as the more you look and from different persectives the more you might be able to get closer to the "truth". however that might be defined.
> 
> Sethro you are doing a great job and most including me are very greatful for your efforts, as you have stated before others will come to thier own conclusions but this does not take anything away from what you are doing! I also agree that dependability is a huge factor here. that also needs some weight, especially for heads that either break, don't open, partial open or some other variation.


Geez, I don't think even I could have said that much better except to add(in response to some others' comments) that I haven't seen hardly anyone be unappreciative of Seths efforts and very few have been aggressive here in this thread. 

The other compilation of data is just another way of looking at the data. It does not affect or take away from Seths testing in any way, shape or form. Well done. 

Great thread. Seth, thanks for all of your hard work. I appreciate your efforts. Lets keep it going.


----------



## TimmyZ7

Slick Trick hands down!


----------



## BigGarr

did you get an f15 with the cx shipment?


----------



## Laplacesdemon

Sorry for the disruption. Many people posted on this thread that they wanted to see a "total cut" calculation (nicknamed "carnage" by some posters). A week ago, Seth indicated he was working on it and would be adding a "total cut" score (a proposed formula was posted at post #881). He changed his mind, and decided not to award any points for total surface cut. Asking people to figure out these calculations on their own is a lot to ask, as many don't have the time, or the access to all the info you need to figure the cutting dimensions. Seeing as how I had prepared these calculations for myself, and they are very time consuming to duplicate, and many people were interested in these types of numbers, I felt it may be nice to share my calculations (archers helping archers, you know?). So I shared my total cut figures in the thread where total cut calculations had been discussed extensively (including by the thread starter), where they had been expected to be added at one point, and where all the people who may enjoy reviewing them would find them.

Given that there are nearly 2000 posts in this thread, I think there are quite a few that contribute less than the one I made offering information requested by, and helpful to, many fellow archers.

None of the calculations I made would be possible without Seth doing all the hard (not to mention expensive) work. He deserves 100% credit for all the benefit people derive from all his data, no matter how its presented or who is presenting it. I am behind him and the testing 100%, in fact I donated 6 heads to the testing that I bought at retail price. Certainly no offense intended here. Thanks for the responses that pointed out I erred by calculating the Meatseekers at full cut through the gelatin. I have corrected those entries, and I appreciate the helpful input.


----------



## TimmyZ7

Laplacesdemon said:


> Sorry for the disruption. Many people posted on this thread that they wanted to see a "total cut" calculation (nicknamed "carnage" by some posters). A week ago, Seth indicated he was working on it and would be adding a "total cut" score (a proposed formula was posted at post #881). He changed his mind, and decided not to award any points for total surface cut. Asking people to figure out these calculations on their own is a lot to ask, as many don't have the time, or the access to all the info you need to figure the cutting dimensions. Seeing as how I had prepared these calculations for myself, and they are very time consuming to duplicate, and many people were interested in these types of numbers, *I felt it may be nice to share my calculations (archers helping archers, you know?)*. So I shared my total cut figures in the thread where total cut calculations had been discussed extensively (including by the thread starter), where they had been expected to be added at one point, and where all the people who may enjoy reviewing them would find them.
> 
> Given that there are nearly 2000 posts in this thread, I think there are quite a few that contribute less than the one I made offering information requested by, and helpful to, many fellow archers.
> 
> None of the calculations I made would be possible without Seth doing all the hard (not to mention expensive) work. He deserves 100% credit for all the benefit people derive from all his data, no matter how its presented or who is presenting it. I am behind him and the testing 100%, in fact I donated 6 heads to the testing that I bought at retail price. Certainly no offense intended here. Thanks for the responses that pointed out I erred by calculating the Meatseekers at full cut through the gelatin. I have corrected those entries, and I appreciate the helpful input.


:thumbs_up That's what I believed your intentions were.


----------



## doverpack12

I'm excited to see the XT-4 i always thought that could be a great inexpensive head. Haven't had a chance to try one yet. Also looking foreward to the F15 fixed. I have carried one for 2 years waiting to shoot a doe and see how it does. Up to this point i have had other heads to try first.


----------



## sethro02

slick trick standard test results:
2.4" total surface cut or 1" x 1" diameter

penetration- 8
durability- 5
dependability- 5
sharp before- 5
sharp after- 4
flight- 5

total score- 32 out of 35 ( total penetration, 8")


----------



## sethro02

slick trick standard


----------



## Fortyneck

TimmyZ7 said:


> :thumbs_up That's what I believed your intentions were.


Agreed, I'd like to think most people get that too.


----------



## sethro02

dang phone!! can someone please pm me that can help post Slick trick gel pic?


----------



## Northern Archer

Hey Seth, please post your paypal again, a few buck for a great thread is well worth it to me. Your efforts are VERY much appreciated and the posted results are outstanding just as you are doing them!


----------



## sethro02

i understand your intentions were good but i wish you would have asked me or posted in a different thread, i get tons of emails and pm's when stuff gets changed, and it was super confusing for some people on what was going on..i do appreciate your effort as i know it took a while.


----------



## sethro02

paypal is [email protected] reminds me thanks for donations today! going to a good cause


----------



## sethro02

magnus buzzcut guys please do not get mad at me for this next post! all i did was shoot a brand new buzzcut!


----------



## sethro02

magnus buzzcut test results:
3" total cut surface or 1 1/8" x 3/4"

penetration- 9
durability- 1 ( did not give a zero because it did not break apart. it stayed together.)
dependability- 5
sharp before- 5
sharp after- 4
flight- 5
total score- 29 out of 35 ( total penetration, 9")


----------



## sethro02

i really need help uploading a couple of pics...st gel,,,,,buzzcut broke pic


----------



## sethro02

Carbon express xt 4 blade test results:
3.25" total cut surface or 1 1/8" x 1/2"

penetration- 9 
durability- 4 ( one side blade was dented and slightly nicked)
dependability- 5
sharp before- 4
sharp after- 3
flight- 5
total score- 30 out of 35 ( total penetration, 9")


----------



## sethro02

cx xt gel


----------



## sethro02

so i need to still post:

st gel pic
buzzcut broke pic


----------



## qmb9015

sethro02 said:


> i really need help uploading a couple of pics...st gel,,,,,buzzcut broke pic


pm sent you can email them to me and i can send you the img code


----------



## sethro02

round 6 fixed blade aftermath
for now if you look closely to the bottom of the buzzcut ferrule you can see the crack


----------



## sethro02

thanks bud i emailed you the slick trick gel and buzzcut pic!


----------



## qmb9015

anytime if you ever need pictures uploaded just send them to me and i will send you the img code just copy and paste it onto the thread


----------



## sethro02

st gel
http://i45.tinypic.com/52kviw.jpg


----------



## sethro02

thanks dis regard your pm then


----------



## qmb9015

thats weird usually it imbeds the picture so that you dont have to click on it but still works


----------



## sethro02

buzzcut broke
http://i46.tinypic.com/161z2jb.jpg


----------



## sethro02

sorry...this should be ok


----------



## qmb9015

sorry it bothered me lol here it is 

buzzcut broke


----------



## qmb9015

st gel


----------



## sethro02

thanks


----------



## qmb9015

anytime


----------



## 0nepin

sethro02 said:


> slick trick standard
> View attachment 1416307


That's what I expected.


----------



## 0nepin

sethro02 said:


> titanium extreme
> View attachment 1413194


This is massive, where can I get one of these.it makes the slicktrick entry hole look like field tip.


----------



## MarkBaHoi

Man for $14.00 a pack the XT4s sure didn't to that bad!

I sharpen mine up b4 use and I've never not had one just slip through.

One 2 occasions I shot the same deer 2x. Both times I shot them and they just flinched a little and I SWEAR I missed so I shot them again. Almost the same thing. 

Seth, was there a Nativ head in the pack I sent or not??????
http://www.carbonexpressarrows.com/archery/broadheads/nativ-100

The Nativ heads were the only ones that I had that I thought went through easier. The deer wouldn't even flinch.


----------



## sethro02

No their was not..sorry I didnt get back to u


----------



## doverpack12

I'm gonna try some XT-4's and some ulmer edges


----------



## BigGarr

What Other heads do you have to be tested and coming to you?


----------



## sethro02

I have a few more cx heads to be tested...im getting:
Schwacker
Grizztrick 2
Cx f15
exodus swept..donated by qad...they contacted me 2 days ago


Thats what I know off the top of my head...oh and tt ulmer edge 125 prototype..will not be official test with others but I will show results


----------



## awaldron4jesus

Reapers


----------



## Super 91

Wow! That is interesting that the Buzzcut I sent you broke. It's funny how you think a certain head is the best thing since sliced bread, and it ends up nearly a failure. I mean, it still got the job done, but it could have turned out for the worst. The only good thing about the whole deal is that you can send that head back to Magnus and they will send you a new one.


----------



## brokenlittleman

sethro02 said:


> I have a few more cx heads to be tested...im getting:
> Schwacker
> Grizztrick 2
> Cx f15
> exodus swept..donated by qad...they contacted me 2 days ago
> 
> 
> Thats what I know off the top of my head...oh and tt ulmer edge 125 prototype..will not be official test with others but I will show results


Phathead SOB should be there by tomorrow.


----------



## sethro02

Oh yea! Sob! Sorry forgot to mention that one...got alot goin on...trying to keep it straight


----------



## Michael Myers

0nepin said:


> Almost 100,000 views.sethro you are the man!!! And I hope more people will realize how much time and $$$ you have spent for our benefit . Thank. Bud!!!


You are the man,Thanks for everything...Great Work,Seth,I appreciate everything you have done...Grizz


----------



## Michael Myers

0nepin said:


> I can't wait for the gravedigger to show up so I can put together the CLOSED CASKET!!!! I'm really going to push the limits on this one.this head will be for 100lb ke.plus.


Im excited.....


----------



## 0nepin

qmb9015 said:


> st gel


Wow that's such a little hole.


----------



## sethro02

Thanks guys..next test after real deal test concludes is in the making


----------



## MarkBaHoi

Dang! I'll get a nativ in the mail ASAP!

Sorry!


----------



## 0nepin

sethro02 said:


> vpa
> View attachment 1413153


Another very little hole.it has 3.75" total cutting surface.


----------



## 0nepin

sethro02 said:


> snuffer ss
> View attachment 1413178


4.5" total cutting surface.this just prove total cutting surfac mean notting when it comes to clean killing a deer.


----------



## Super 91

So what will you do for the next round of testing?


----------



## 0nepin

sethro02 said:


> titanium extreme
> View attachment 1413194


This only has 3.37 total cutting surface and it show why the industry uses cutting diamitter instead.cutting diamitter is the only thing that mater when it come to carnage ,pic don't lie.


----------



## TimmyZ7

Onepin, I agree man. I personally like big cut heads for that very reason. I have seen tough track jobs through the thickets because hide found its way back over the hole. It is even worse if the arrow is stuck in there. That is a lot harder to do if the hole is 2"+ It doesn't bother me that a fixed head can go fifty inches past the target and a mechanical can only go 6 inches past the target because ultimately so long as it exits the animal the mission is accomplished. However, although the mechanical may not go as far into the dirt as a fixed head if it passes through just the same the trauma inflicted is much more intense. The intensity is carried out in the destruction of the vitals and more importantly the blood trail. Fixed heads totally make sense to me and are absolutely necessary but they are not the only option that is most effective at killing a Whitetail. There are some quality mechanicals on the market now as shown. We have come a long way from the Vortex, lol.


----------



## Boghdóir

Did you try to spin test those CE XT 4's? I bought a pack, none of them will spin, and they fly like crap. I emailed CE and got no response.


----------



## johnswan

Seth, I have been bowhunting for the better part of 25 years and I have tried many heads, some with good results and some with not so good results. I have always tried to better my equipment to ethically hunt and kill game more effectively, but I do not have the time or money to put into the testing that you have. I just wanted to say thank you for your efforts and you have helped me and probably many other bowhunters out in making a logical choice on a great head.

Thank ya!!


----------



## BigGarr

90,000+ views thats crazy!! thanks for the time and money spent!


----------



## Bowhuntr64

I have a Slick Trick question: Does anyone have any idea how the smaller diameter Standards penetrated less than the Magnums, which penetrated less than the GrizzTricks? This is completely counter intuitive. I am really curious. It almost seems that the steeper the angle of the blades, the better the penetration, regardless of the much greater diameters. 

Any thoughts?


----------



## kk11

Thanks Seth, your test has been very helpful to me.


----------



## lmtucker

I was wandering about the Slick Trick results myself Bowhuntr64.


----------



## Bowhuntr64

lmtucker said:


> I was wandering about the Slick Trick results myself Bowhuntr64.


I would love to hear what Seth or any others might surmise as to the reason for these results. Really intriguing.


----------



## 206Moose

0nepin said:


> Wow that's such a little hole.


Sometimes that's a good thing. 

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2


----------



## mikajay

Bowhuntr64 said:


> I have a Slick Trick question: Does anyone have any idea how the smaller diameter Standards penetrated less than the Magnums, which penetrated less than the GrizzTricks? This is completely counter intuitive. I am really curious. It almost seems that the steeper the angle of the blades, the better the penetration, regardless of the much greater diameters.
> 
> Any thoughts?


Like pondered on another thread, mediums relatively non brittle like plywood are obviously best penetrated with a hammerlike blow that the short (grizztrick) blades deliver.If the material is not shattering easily, the longer more traditional blades lose a lot energy wedging through even while cutting a smaller hole.The resistance of the gelatin seems to have little to do in here.

Definitely maybe.

r.mika


----------



## sethro02

I spin test every head before and after..this particular cx spun tested for me.


----------



## sethro02

With the differance of the slicktricks I think another reason is that their is more ferrule showing on grizz...maybe it makes just enough room for those blades to break through.


----------



## sethro02

Not mentioning next test yet...their is alot of planning

Onepin..im currently looking up and trying to add cut diameters


----------



## 0nepin

NTYMADATER said:


> Sometimes that's a good thing.
> 
> Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2


True.but not when it comes to deer hunting.if you go back and look at all the pic there is no way I'm shooting a fixed head again.


----------



## sethro02

So which frankenhead is in ur quiver? Dont shoot extreme you will catch the woods on fire just like my garage with those sparks!


----------



## 206Moose

0nepin said:


> True.but not when it comes to deer hunting.if you go back and look at all the pic there is no way I'm shooting a fixed head again.


Take it easy I'm just joking around. It's obvious you like mechs and I like fixed but we can still be friends unless of course if you shoot a bowtech.


----------



## sethro02

All 20 pm's answered!


----------



## 0nepin

sethro02 said:


> So which frankenhead is in ur quiver? Dont shoot extreme you will catch the woods on fire just like my garage with those sparks!


Right now ,ray charles and Supercreech .but soon I'm going to add the closed casket , raging ulmer , and chisel extreme.


----------



## sethro02

Thx for support!


----------



## Michael Myers

NTYMADATER said:


> Take it easy I'm just joking around. It's obvious you like mechs and I like fixed but we can still be friends unless of course if you shoot a bowtech.


Dude,Why are you bashing Products in this Thread ?It is just gonna start a Fight,Who cares what anybody shooots?Its all personal preference from Bow,Broadheads,Strings,Releases,arrows etc...Lets keep this thread clean and enjoy what it is About...Broadheads...Cheers,Grizz


----------



## sethro02

I wanna get to florida and shoot something with u...plane tix are 350


----------



## Michael Myers

0nepin said:


> Right now ,ray charles and Supercreech .but soon I'm going to add the closed casket , raging ulmer , and chisel extreme.


I am waiting on my Gravediggers,Maybe you will have to show me how to make a Closed Casket...I Might Call mine "The Undertaker" and start a Streak of my Own!!.Grizz


----------



## sethro02

Sorry I couldnt shoot more last night...contraption needs repaired and all my arrows are broke...easton plz call me!


----------



## 0nepin

GrizzlyMan1980 said:


> I am waiting on my Gravediggers,Maybe you will have to show me how to make a Closed Casket...I Might Call mine "The Undertaker" and start a Streak of my Own!!.Grizz


That would be awesome.


----------



## rutmaster

so many heads! great job from a fellow hoosier! keep on track your doing great!


----------



## Ned250

Spreadsheet is updated with last night's results - https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AgJEvQwzfDRZdGxzdC15R0JIZDJGQ1J4bVpGV1pTWHc

Seth - any thoughts on a 2nd tie breaker? We have 10 heads with a score of 32, with 4 of them tied at 8" of penetration. I also noticed that the G5 striker and Thunderheads both had a penetration score of 10, but a tiebreaker of 8" penetration. What's the significance there?


----------



## sethro02

That would be a misprint then...let me chk scores when I get home...ill work on second tie break


----------



## sethro02

Thx guys


----------



## 0nepin

sethro02 said:


> I wanna get to florida and shoot something with u...plane tix are 350


For that kinda $$$ you might want to wait untill deer season so I put you on a hog and deer and yes we have big deer. Killing a 130-150" deer would not be unusual .Deer season last from oct- to the end of feb. The best deer hunting is around the first of the year.I rattled in 8 different bucks last year on the first. There was a 168" deer killed last year with in 3 miles and I have one on camera that could be state record material.A few years ago my brother took a buck,doe,turkey and a hog on opening day.and on the last day of late ml season in 08 I took a 152" and 133" buck.


----------



## sethro02

Ill for sure have to bring u up here for deer and turkey hunts then!


----------



## TimmyZ7

We should have a PSE "extreme fest" and go on a group hunt with Franken heads. Send the video to PSE as "I cut it in half with my PSE" We could probably turn your garage into a slaughter house, lol.


----------



## Michael Myers

TimmyZ7 said:


> We should have a PSE "extreme fest" and go on a group hunt with Franken heads. Send the video to PSE as "I cut it in half with my PSE" We could probably turn your garage into a slaughter house, lol.


Sounds like an Idea,I Would love to Drive a Closed Casket through the Big Boar hitting my Bait...Hes 400 +..It is going to be on Film,We are starting to Video our hunts...Its an Older Camcorder 6 Years,But it takes decent video so i am Pumped,Every animal i take on film will be getting sent to Pse and the Drurys and Primos as well...Maybe someday,I Can have my own Show....Never Know,or get to Go on the Drury's Shows...Lol...


----------



## sethro02

Ha..not a bad idea


----------



## Ned250

sethro02 said:


> That would be a misprint then...let me chk scores when I get home...ill work on second tie break


If I had just clicked the links I pasted in for those heads, I'd see it was a spreadsheet issue. All fixed now - https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AgJEvQwzfDRZdGxzdC15R0JIZDJGQ1J4bVpGV1pTWHc


----------



## alwayslookin

Interesting stuff.
Looking at the data ..........only one Mech head (and it is a hybrid) in the top 5.
I am happy, I have 2 in the top 5.
Looking at it farther down the line, from all of our testing, and comparing it.......it is pretty parallel. If a head scores over 30....it is a pretty consistent performer and will generally give you good results.
The top 5 pretty much mirror what I believe to be an important factor in broadhead performance EDGE INTEGRITY........as the blade sharpening produces a very shallow grind, the blades lose sharpness when they hit anything.....they literally shed their edge......which degrades their cutting ability. The top 5 have heavy main blades allowing for a more durable edge. Not a major deal in total performance.......but it can be in blood loss. And in this test it costs you score (SA)
Thanks for the spreadsheet and all the hard work.
Sethro.......send me your address again, I have a care package.
Good stuff......only a couple of heads that scored lower than I thought they would.


----------



## 0nepin

TimmyZ7 said:


> We should have a PSE "extreme fest" and go on a group hunt with Franken heads. Send the video to PSE as "I cut it in half with my PSE" We could probably turn your garage into a slaughter house, lol.


Haha.


----------



## 0nepin

Grizzlyman1980 man as soon as I done testing the closed casket im sending one your way bud.


----------



## sethro02

Pm's sent...onepin I may shoot a raging ulmer extreme with an injexion...what is your bow and arrow set up


----------



## sethro02

Ill post pics but wont count in test


----------



## 0nepin

I have a good idea for next years testing but it will take alot of us to contribute supply's and $$$ to Seth.if every body could save a pair of shoulder bones from this season kill and send them to Seth to use for testing or Seth could use real shoulders in one test with any broadhead and then he could use that same head to test different test mediums until he finds one thats as close as the real thing for future testing and I would not be surprised if what he is already using in not super close.just thinking out loud.


----------



## Michael Myers

0nepin said:


> Grizzlyman1980 man as soon as I done testing the closed casket im sending one your way bud.


Sounds like a Plan man,I Will use it for Sure,Pm me and let me know if i owe u anything,Cheers,Onepin,Grizz


----------



## Bowhuntr64

0nepin said:


> I have a good idea for next years testing but it will take alot of us to contribute supply's and $$$ to Seth.if every body could save a pair of shoulder bones from this season kill and send them to Seth to use for testing or Seth could use real shoulders in one test with any broadhead and then he could use that same head to test different test mediums until he finds one thats as close as the real thing for future testing and I would not be surprised if what he is already using in not super close.just thinking out loud.


The problem with using a shoulder is that it is a very inconsistent medium; you may hit a thin part, or a weak part. They would vary from animal to animal and place to place within that animal.


----------



## bowhunter727

Personaly i dont think wood is even close to bone bone shaters and has little to no flex wood has a absorbant quality and tears more than breaks im not taking away from seth at all for shore i would not do what he has done im far to lazy i just think synthetic mediums are not like the real thing


----------



## 0nepin

sethro02 said:


> Pm's sent...onepin I may shoot a raging ulmer extreme with an injexion...what is your bow and arrow set up


Well one is an omen at 86lb with 509 gr fmj and I really plan to kill a deer with every franken head that we have came up with.the 07 xforce hf 6 at 82lb i have it tuned to perfection with vap's and i will start it off with closed casket or ray Charles the xforce ss at 74 Lb with gold tip 7595s it will start with the Supercreech and the axe 5.6 at 84lb that should show up from breathn any day now I plan on using injection or vap arrows and I will one of the franken heads maybe the raging ulmer or chisel extreme.my drenalin and guardian will probaly hange in house all season.


----------



## sethro02

You guys are kinda close but will stay on track with this test for now and then I will open up for suggestions


----------



## 0nepin

Bowhuntr64 said:


> The problem with using a shoulder is that it is a very inconsistent medium; you may hit a thin part, or a weak part. They would vary from animal to animal and place to place within that animal.


Well maybe he test five different mature buck shoulder and come up with with an ad and use that to find a good test medium?


----------



## Buckbadger

Spreadsheet is showing a trend

Top 15 Boradheads- (13 Fixed) (2 Mech.)
Bottom 15 Broadheads (13 Mech.) (2 Fixed)


----------



## 0nepin

sethro02 said:


> You guys are kinda close but will stay on track with this test for now and then I will open up for suggestions


I was thinking next year ,maybe for your you tube channel .what you are doing is great Seth.It would be very cool to show the behind the seens how you chose the test medium and all that went in to making the test mediums.


----------



## sethro02

Yea it is but you guys be the judge...as long as your confident in your choice.


----------



## 206Moose

GrizzlyMan1980 said:


> Dude,Why are you bashing Products in this Thread ?It is just gonna start a Fight,Who cares what anybody shooots?Its all personal preference from Bow,Broadheads,Strings,Releases,arrows etc...Lets keep this thread clean and enjoy what it is About...Broadheads...Cheers,Grizz


You obviously dont get my sense of humor

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2


----------



## BigGarr

do you know when the f15 will be tested? im starting to get anxious. thanks again seth


----------



## Michael Myers

NTYMADATER said:


> You obviously dont get my sense of humor
> 
> Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2


Guess not,If i took it wrong,I Apologize...We can be buddies inless you shoot Fixed Heads:wink:


----------



## sethro02

Waiting on f15 sorry biggarr....yes behind the seens footage and all that


----------



## Super 91

Ned250 said:


> If I had just clicked the links I pasted in for those heads, I'd see it was a spreadsheet issue. All fixed now - https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AgJEvQwzfDRZdGxzdC15R0JIZDJGQ1J4bVpGV1pTWHc


Love the spreadsheet! Great work. I've been following it all along, but I see you have it mostly fixed and looking great! That is a pile of work in and of itself! It makes it some nice to look at one place and see the results of the tests. Thank you very much!!


----------



## HC Knives

I have been in contact with Wasp and it looks like they want to donate some heads to this test! Waiting for your PM Seth


----------



## sethro02

Sorry guys pm's answered


----------



## 206Moose

GrizzlyMan1980 said:


> Guess not,If i took it wrong,I Apologize...We can be buddies inless you shoot Fixed Heads:wink:


I probably shouldn't have omitted jk i think that means joking when i was in my twenties i shot 80 and 90 lb bows now in my old age i shoot 60 lbs. Thus the reason i prefer fixed I like to give mech guys a hard time but its all in fun. Shoot me a pm if you're looking to upgrade your video equipment. 

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2


----------



## GarrickTX

Almost 2000 posts... good thread, Awesome Idea


----------



## Michael Myers

NTYMADATER said:


> I probably shouldn't have omitted jk i think that means joking when i was in my twenties i shot 80 and 90 lb bows now in my old age i shoot 60 lbs. Thus the reason i prefer fixed I like to give mech guys a hard time but its all in fun. Shoot me a pm if you're looking to upgrade your video equipment.
> 
> Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2


Lol,Think i am gonna use the Old Camcorder until it quits,I cant justify buying Hd camera yet...Maybe next year,We will see how the filming goes,My dad is in for it,I Will have to film him as well,But my Causin who says he will do it,Has a hard time getting up before 10 Am,So i might not have a camera man...Somedays.Thanks and i will Pm you if i decide to upgrade,Cheers,Grizz


----------



## sethro02

Yea and still more good heads to come!


----------



## 0nepin

NTYMADATER said:


> I probably shouldn't have omitted jk i think that means joking when i was in my twenties i shot 80 and 90 lb bows now in my old age i shoot 60 lbs. Thus the reason i prefer fixed I like to give mech guys a hard time but its all in fun. Shoot me a pm if you're looking to upgrade your video equipment.
> 
> Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2


Mos

Alot of bows made since 07 have more ke at 60lb than older bows did at 80-90lb.


----------



## 0nepin

In only 14 days you have over 93,000 views ,that has to be a AT record!!!!!!!


----------



## sethro02

Yea thats crazy man!


----------



## deertick

After reading about the Ulmerpulled the trigger and ordered, like the fix on accidental blade deployment that' with the Rage... Finally got thru 20pages was happy to see the Muzzy 3 scored high. Great work...


----------



## sethro02

I thought more people would speak up about mx3


----------



## goathollow

*Mx4 vs Old School Muzzy 4*



sethro02 said:


> I thought more people would speak up about mx3


Well I took notice. I wasn't going to bother you you with an old school 4 blade Muzzy since there hasn't been too much interest in the MX. But, since you seem to be ok with continuing the test I will send you an old school Muzzy 4 blade. I've been told that the MX is less apt to plane so if the test results don't point me to the old schools I may switch to the MX4. I have not been able to find any schools 4s anywhere in town so I ordered some from Cabelas (gotta love points and free shipping). As soon as they arrive I will send one your way.


----------



## 206Moose

sethro02 said:


> Ill for sure have to bring u up here for deer and turkey hunts then!


You guys should come hunt with me. Check out my albums i can put you on some big deer. 

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2


----------



## sethro02

Guys mail call..wife said their is 6 packages!


----------



## Sivart

When is the 2nd grim reaper test?


----------



## qmb9015

sethro02 said:


> Guys mail call..wife said their is 6 packages!


hopefully one is from me


----------



## sethro02

The whitetail specials? Should be getting them soon...it will not count for test though


----------



## sethro02

Qmb what did u send?


----------



## qmb9015

sethro02 said:


> Qmb what did u send?


pm sent


----------



## Early Ice

goathollow said:


> Well I took notice. I wasn't going to bother you you with an old school 4 blade Muzzy since there hasn't been too much interest in the MX. But, since you seem to be ok with continuing the test I will send you an old school Muzzy 4 blade. I've been told that the MX is less apt to plane so if the test results don't point me to the old schools I may switch to the MX4. I have not been able to find any schools 4s anywhere in town so I ordered some from Cabelas (gotta love points and free shipping). As soon as they arrive I will send one your way.


an old school muzzy may miss the whole darn target


----------



## jaysib

2000 Posts!!!
Good job Seth.
Bring on some more tests.


----------



## TimmyZ7

BTW, I included extra bands with the Swhacker if you need to shoot it more than once and the mail lady said Monday.


----------



## sethro02

Ok great...here is what I received

Grizztrick 2
Wasp bullet
Phathead sob
Tt terminal t lock

And the whitetail specials razortip anf the other kind...chisel maybe? Once again im just reshooting them for the manufacture and posting results but it does not count..i do not work monday and tuesday so from here until then I should be able to test all these


----------



## gdouty

TimmyZ7 said:


> BTW, I included extra bands with the Swhacker if you need to shoot it more than once and the mail lady said Monday.


I am excited about the Swhacker test, cant wait to see the results. I have shot Strikers for years and I am considering changing to Swhackers or Gravediggers. 

I shot Vortex 2 blades for a long time, I think those are worth testing. I know several people that still use them. Anyone else interested in seeing the Vortex tested?


----------



## Michael Myers

NTYMADATER said:


> You guys should come hunt with me. Check out my albums i can put you on some big deer.
> 
> Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2


Have you ever hunted Bear?Grizz


----------



## 206Moose

GrizzlyMan1980 said:


> Have you ever hunted Bear?Grizz


Had a spring bear hunt planned this year but had to cancel. Maybe next year. 

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2


----------



## Michael Myers

NTYMADATER said:


> Had a spring bear hunt planned this year but had to cancel. Maybe next year.
> 
> Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2


We dont have a Spring bear hunt in Ontario any more..The tree huggers cried so much they got rid of it,But we do have a Fall hunt.If your ever up in my Neck of the Woods,Maybe we could arrange something.Grizz


----------



## Laplacesdemon

gdouty said:


> I shot Vortex 2 blades for a long time, I think those are worth testing. I know several people that still use them. Anyone else interested in seeing the Vortex tested?


The heads I donated included 2 Vortex 2-blade models, a steel solid and a regular solid. They should have arrived yesterday or maybe today. So you might see those tested sometime soon.


----------



## TimmyZ7

*Vortex 2.5" Pro Extreme Exit Wound*


----------



## sethro02

I got sonoran's in as well...2 are 100 grain


----------



## TimmyZ7

I had the Sonoran 3 blades and they were very good. The only difference I noticed from them and the Swhacker was that you have to heat shrink the bands onto the ferrule where as the Swhackers came pre shrunk.


----------



## sethro02

They are pretty interesting....curious to see how the terminal t stacks up against the shuttle t


----------



## alwayslookin

Vortex, Mar-Den, and Sonoran were some bad arse heads......the sonoran was a little different before Shwacker bought em.
The Ward's know what works when it comes to materials and design.


----------



## Tpashrk

Ned250 said:


> You're right. I fixed it.
> 
> This is why I locked down the sheet. This stuff got way outta wack the other day with so many people sorting it 15 different ways. I had to basically rebuild it. Sorry I missed this one.


I would like to suggest changing it back, IMHO the Ramcat is fixed and not a mech. To me a mech opens on/right after impact. The blades on the Ramcat are already in the "open" position, nothing more happens at impact (other than a nasty entrance hole).

I would also point you to a quote from Smoke's website: "The Ramcat fixed blade broadhead is available and ready for shipping. The Ramcat is a hybrid fixed blade broadhead. The blades are sharpened front and rear and will roll forward to cut coming back out of the target ("Backcut")."


----------



## 0nepin

Sethro I will send out the closed casket Monday for testing. There will aleast three version of them that im going to build.this might truly be the ultimate whitetail broadhead.and I'm waiting for Dale to pm me back befor I send them. I will finish assembly tomarrow and post if Dale has no problem with It and I will send one to grizzlyman1980 for some testing on a big bear..


----------



## sethro02

I had the ramcat listed as fixed when it was tested. Ok onepin..you have sent enough I dont want u to waste these heads but its ur call


----------



## Quartermoons

Anyone up for making any predictions on how the grizz trick 2 will compare with the original?


----------



## Super 91

sethro02 said:


> They are pretty interesting....curious to see how the terminal t stacks up against the shuttle t


This is the test I am waiting on too. Love the look of the Terminal T-Lock.


----------



## sethro02

I think grizztrick 2 will go through otherside


----------



## 0nepin

Quartermoons said:


> Anyone up for making any predictions on how the grizz trick 2 will compare with the original?


Little hole in little hole out.


----------



## gdouty

Laplacesdemon said:


> The heads I donated included 2 Vortex 2-blade models, a steel solid and a regular solid. They should have arrived yesterday or maybe today. So you might see those tested sometime soon.


That's awesome, I'm interested in seeing how the vortex handles the plywood entry. I know I have seen some huge exit holes with them.


----------



## IndianaPSE

alwayslookin said:


> Thanks for the spreadsheet


What page is the spreadsheet on fellas?


----------



## 0nepin

IndianaPSE said:


> What page is the spreadsheet on fellas?


Page 66 at the very top.


----------



## Bowhuntr64

Seth, can I ask a question? I mean this with all respect and gratitude for all you are doing: What are you doing to insure/test the consistency of the gel density? Can gel vary from batch to batch? I have never worked with gel, so I have no idea. 

Just curious when I see the results with the larger Slick Tricks penetrating more than the smaller Slick Tricks, and some other results that seem to be counterintuitive.


----------



## mathewshooterxt

Can't wait to see what the Steelforce SOB does. I've heard great things about them!


----------



## xcr 1.5

0nepin said:


> Little hole in little hole out.


You spelled giant wrong. :wink:


----------



## frontierhunter

This is an amazing thread. I could not care less how a broadhead performs on a "well placed shot"......any and most every broadhead is adequate enough to kill most game (north american game animals)

But it's the performance on bad shots that I want to know. I have hit a shoulder on both deer (45lb recurve at 30 yards) and elk (70lb compound at 40 yards) and didn't get the penetration needed to kill those animals. Both broadheads performed badly in this test. 

It's nice to see what might have happened and reasons for broadhead failure.


----------



## Quartermoons

0nepin said:


> Little hole in little hole out.



By your standards I'd agree with that. Not to burst your bubble an all, but I've put a 3.5" Rocket Slammerhead completely through a deer out of a 60 lb swbxt and a whopping 246 fps. Hit them in a soft spot and your crazy high amount of ke isn't really necessary. You hit the kind of buck I'm hunting with something like that in the shoulder, then you've got to be shooting what you do. I'll take the 'little hole in and little hole' out for that deer and take my chances. And anytime you want to compare exactly what type of deer we are each shooting at, you just let me know. I've got a wall full of deer that most had 'little' holes coming out of them. Makes the taxidermy work a bit easier.


----------



## jaysib

Quartermoons said:


> By your standards I'd agree with that. Not to burst your bubble an all, but I've put a 3.5" Rocket Slammerhead completely through a deer out of a 60 lb swbxt and a whopping 246 fps. Hit them in a soft spot and your crazy high amount of ke isn't really necessary. You hit the kind of buck I'm hunting with something like that in the shoulder, then you've got to be shooting what you do. I'll take the 'little hole in and little hole' out for that deer and take my chances. And anytime you want to compare exactly what type of deer we are each shooting at, you just let me know. I've got a wall full of deer that most had 'little' holes coming out of them. Makes the taxidermy work a bit easier.


Quartermoons....get use to it. Every other post is about the highest KE on AT and shooting ax heads.


----------



## 4IDARCHER

I have been trying to follow this thread as much as I can, but what I can't pin down is so far what is the sharpest broadhead so far in the test, either mech or fixed?


----------



## Porkrind

jaysib said:


> Quartermoons....get use to it. Every other post is about the highest KE on AT and shooting ax heads.


Lol. I've been thinking that for 68 pages now. Geez this guy can't quit touting himself and his equipment. Contrats to him on his eagerness to go against the grain, but man it's just getting a little old. I thought this was a thread to test out broadheads on the market not something someone is making for themselves. I'd rather see mongrels at this point then the "Closed Casket!!!!!!" No hard feelings onepin, just getting a little old.


----------



## jsbhunter

Well thanks to Seths' hard work I was able to decide on what new heads I will be trying out this year. I received my grave diggers and my ulmer's today. I have not shot them yet but my first impressions on both heads is that they are well made and both look to be more than sufficient to get the job done. I just have to check point o f impact now to see if they will group with my field points. I am definitely a mechanical guy and love large diameter cuts, so I really hope the grave diggers will hit with my field points, I pretty sure they will because my sonics and slick tricks grouped right with them and they are both small diameter fixed bladed heads similar to the fixed head of the GDs.


----------



## nonamebob

Looks like the there may be a few mistakes w/ the spreadsheet, never knew muzzy 3-blds had more cutting area than a grizz. Same w/ the T1


----------



## dorkbuck33

0nepin said:


> Sethro I will send out the closed casket Monday for testing. There will aleast three version of them that im going to build.this might truly be the ultimate whitetail broadhead.and I'm waiting for Dale to pm me back befor I send them. I will finish assembly tomarrow and post if Dale has no problem with It and I will send one to grizzlyman1980 for some testing on a big bear..


I am kind of confused as to why Frankenheads would be sent to Seth for this real world testing. I would think that a head new out of the package that us average hunters can buy off the shelf should only be in his testing and make the spread sheet. It all started with the "Ulmer Rage" i guess and that is great . But , myself and others are not willing to go out buy multiple products to make up a head. They are cool , but , keep them in the frankenhead thread . 
As i have said b-4 , thanks Seth .


----------



## sethro02

Guys the gel consistency seems the same..i make it exactly the same everytime...thats all I can do to ensure consistency...

To the person who asked about the sharpest bh...all of them were sharp for the most part but vpa had a 5 after


----------



## sethro02

The mx3 has a lower total cut surface than a grizztrick...when I get time ill double chk all numbers on spreadsheet


----------



## sethro02

Dont know what to say about slick tricks penetration yet..ill wait to see how grizztricks 2 do before I figure that one out...those were new heads shot into new media


----------



## 0nepin

dorkbuck33 said:


> I am kind of confused as to why Frankenheads would be sent to Seth for this real world testing. I would think that a head new out of the package that us average hunters can buy off the shelf should only be in his testing and make the spread sheet. It all started with the "Ulmer Rage" i guess and that is great . But , myself and others are not willing to go out buy multiple products to make up a head. They are cool , but , keep them in the frankenhead thread .
> As i have said b-4 , thanks Seth .


Because that what some of us shoot.besides it make thing more interesting.


----------



## 0nepin

Porkrind said:


> Lol. I've been thinking that for 68 pages now. Geez this guy can't quit touting himself and his equipment. Contrats to him on his eagerness to go against the grain, but man it's just getting a little old. I thought this was a thread to test out broadheads on the market not something someone is making for themselves. I'd rather see mongrels at this point then the "Closed Casket!!!!!!" No hard feelings onepin, just getting a little old.


I did not know this was test was made just for you, my bad.but there a few of us that like franken heads and we like to think out of the box a little.if you think this getting old I really don't care , I'm having a good time doing this and learning a few thing through the process.if you want to shoot head that you just bought at the store that cool.What make you think I'm not a mongrel?


----------



## sethro02

I was just gonna shoot broadheads that are available in stores but after seeing the popularity of the frankenheads I didnt think it was a big deal to test a few...we have got some good heads that will be tested n the next couple of days


----------



## 0nepin

Quartermoons said:


> By your standards I'd agree with that. Not to burst your bubble an all, but I've put a 3.5" Rocket Slammerhead completely through a deer out of a 60 lb swbxt and a whopping 246 fps. Hit them in a soft spot and your crazy high amount of ke isn't really necessary. You hit the kind of buck I'm hunting with something like that in the shoulder, then you've got to be shooting what you do. I'll take the 'little hole in and little hole' out for that deer and take my chances. And anytime you want to compare exactly what type of deer we are each shooting at, you just let me know. I've got a wall full of deer that most had 'little' holes coming out of them. Makes the taxidermy work a bit easier.


 most people hit them a little far back and thats where the bigger heads shine.I have killed plenty of deer over 200lb and one that was 253lb and I have not had a problem yet .


----------



## 2robinhood

Is there a list off all the broad heads tested to date along with the scores ?


----------



## Buckbadger

gdouty said:


> I am excited about the Swhacker test, cant wait to see the results. I have shot Strikers for years and I am considering changing to Swhackers or Gravediggers.
> 
> I shot Vortex 2 blades for a long time, I think those are worth testing. I know several people that still use them. Anyone else interested in seeing the Vortex tested?


I'm sure some might be intrested, but both heads have big blades and a long ferrule, which I think will not fair well? My prediction is heads like these will not preform that well with total scores in the 20's to mid 20's , bent ferrules and blades, possibly break? with very minimal overall pentration. Although the Ulmer has surprised me, but don't think these will fair well?


----------



## sethro02

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/...1J4bVpGV1pTWHc

these are all the heads so far


----------



## sethro02

i think the schawaker will penetrate well just because it wont be open through first set of media.. after that who knows!


----------



## nybowhuntermike

sethro this thread is awesome, great job on all your effort and time, buttt its soo great that there so many posts i cant keep up with it lol, i was following closley to about page 59 then wasnt able to get on for a short period of time. can anyone tell me if you have tested the phathead SOB, i know a while back someone was suppose to be sending you one


----------



## Fortyneck

Porkrind said:


> Lol. I've been thinking that for 68 pages now. Geez this guy can't quit touting himself and his equipment. Contrats to him on his eagerness to go against the grain, but man it's just getting a little old. I thought this was a thread to test out broadheads on the market not something someone is making for themselves. *I'd rather see mongrels at this point* then the "Closed Casket!!!!!!" No hard feelings onepin, just getting a little old.


Did somebody say Mongrels? :wink:


----------



## sethro02

no i have not, i just got it in the mail...i will be testing several heads in the next couple of days hopefully tomorrow...this will include the phathead sob...im very excited to see how this one does.


----------



## nybowhuntermike

awesome, looking foward to it


----------



## Bowhuntr64

nonamebob said:


> Looks like the there may be a few mistakes w/ the spreadsheet, never knew muzzy 3-blds had more cutting area than a grizz. Same w/ the T1


Seth is measuring the actual length of the blade surfaces, not the diameter width.


----------



## sethro02

I am measuring total cut surface but will be adding diameter as well


----------



## Porkrind

Never said it couldn't be fun or that it was my test, sorry u got so easily offended. I just feel that it would be nice to keep the thread within reason. Over 2000 posts now and a good portion of those are repetitive about how a homemade head bigger and better. I like seeing what people can come up with as much as anyone. I even gave you props for it, so have fun do what u do and I'll just keep weeding through it like I've been doing. No harm no foul.


----------



## sethro02

Yea this thread got kinda big and it is definately tough to keep up...thats also why the future tests I do will be on a youtube channel to watch and then a thread on here to discuss...come on 100000 viewz!


----------



## buckhunter1

Some guys are questioning the Ramcat being a fixed or mechanical. Why not just call it a hybrid and leave it at that. 

Also, what is the Ray Charles head? I don't remember that one...


----------



## 0nepin

jaysib said:


> Quartermoons....get use to it. Every other post is about the highest KE on AT and shooting ax heads.


Thanks for taking time away from the Obama rally to reply.


----------



## swampboss

sethro02 said:


> https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/...1J4bVpGV1pTWHc
> 
> these are all the heads so far


YOUR LINK WONT WORK FOR ME ??
can you just copy and paste it on here ?


----------



## MarkBaHoi

Nativ is in da mail!


----------



## IndianaPSE

Originally Posted by sethro02 
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/...1J4bVpGV1pTWHc

yea, this link is not working here either, all the past links worked. Not sure what's up?


----------



## 0nepin

buckhunter1 said:


> Some guys are questioning the Ramcat being a fixed or mechanical. Why not just call it a hybrid and leave it at that.
> 
> Also, what is the Ray Charles head? I don't remember that one...


Check page 48 post 1437.


----------



## sethro02

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AgJEvQwzfDRZdGxzdC15R0JIZDJGQ1J4bVpGV1pTWHc#gid=0


----------



## sethro02

let me know if this is ok for now...im not at home


----------



## Yorklobster

TT ulmer edge, 2'' cut is the best penetrating broadhead so far correct?
the phathead razor has the perfect score?


----------



## sethro02

Ulmer edge 1.5" is best pendtration


Vpa vented has perfect score

Steelforce phathead is 34 pts I think


----------



## mathewshooterxt

sethro02 said:


> Ulmer edge 1.5" is best pendtration
> 
> 
> Vpa vented has perfect score
> 
> Steelforce phathead is 34 pts I think



Are you sure that Ulmer Edge was fully deployed all the way through the gel? Looking at the penetration results of all the other mechanicals, it's hard to believe that one penetrated that much better. You never did post a pic of the gel after the Edge went through it. I was just curious to see if it was open upon impact?


----------



## nolimitarchery

To everyone that has pm me. I'm sorry for not returning them. I am at a Archery shoot a s a vendor. I have spotty coverage at best. I had to drive to get third message out. O will beback Monday
Thanks
Dale


----------



## nonamebob

Will there be a 125gr grave digger in the future? Hmm


----------



## sethro02

I think he is wrkng on 125 grain


Vipertrick and schwaker is here!!!!!!!!!!!!


----------



## sethro02

Looking for ulmer gel pic..it was fully deployed...shot it twice cause I couldnt believe it


----------



## MarkBaHoi

sethro02 said:


> Looking for ulmer gel pic..it was fully deployed...shot it twice cause I couldnt believe it


With other heads that work the same way it looks like that lock open feature was the key.

I've had good results w/ the gators as far as killing animals but I can see how they could partially close. All the holes in lungs/heart/livers/guts (Yeah I've made a bad shot or three) have been at least 1.5" and most were >2". I will say the arrows blew through the animals, I wonder if the wood is slowing the arrow down killing that forward drive required to keep them open. 

I'll be shooting them again this year. Would be cool to get better feedback in a thread when people take game. Entry/exit/organ damage w/ shot angle.


----------



## ArcheryRoad

cant wait to see schwaker!!

thanks for everything you've done!!


----------



## sethro02

Also that pivot feature on ulmer may help to


----------



## bginvestor

sethro02 said:


> my bow is perfectly tuned...so at 20 yards i see no difference at all...also in most cases...some fixed blades are built with tighter tolerances than some mechanicals so if you have a tuned setup their should be no difference. that flight score also has alot to do with flight noise... and in this testing so far their hasn't been any that were loud...but once again its only a 20 yard shot.



Seth, great testing..

I hunt in Arizona and long shots are common. In my opinion, a fixed and mechanical won't fly the same with a tuned bow. Fix blades tend to plane differently with larger surface areas. Your test does not consider performance past 20 years.

Also, some broadheads don't spin true as with some other brands. This drastically effects flying performance.

I shoot grim reapers which have a relatively low score on your list. I won't be changing broadheads this year because the reapers fly great out to 60 yards and I have shot 10 animals in South Africa with them so I know they are very effective in killing! Not one failure.

For those thinking of switching from grim reapers, think twice.. Lol


----------



## Sivart

I agree, simple physics proves that a lower profiled mechanical will plane less than a fixed head. Not to criticize the test, it's a great test. I'm just adding a pt for the mechanicals in my head.


----------



## sethro02

Yes for you long shot guys the next test I set up will be 50 yd shots so flight score will be changing quite a bit...loojing into a hooter shooter to help with this


----------



## sethro02

This test was originally planned for 30 yards but due to weather I had to shoot inside which limited me to 20 yds...i spin test them all before and after


----------



## sethro02

Also looking into sonar machine for noise in flight


----------



## Bowhuntr64

sethro02 said:


> Yes for you long shot guys the next test I set up will be 50 yd shots so flight score will be changing quite a bit...loojing into a hooter shooter to help with this


Love this...and the sonar test as well. Great stuff!


----------



## crookedeye

i'm sure someone has one of those laying around..

i'm sure glad i didnt buy the grim reapers..lol..

i always did like how the ulmer heads worked.


----------



## sethro02

It will be a work in progress...need to get this test done first


----------



## 5 Rivers

What a great thread. Sure has generated a lot of interest.
I'm looking forward to your 50 yard testing later on. 
The TT Shuttle T 100gr have given me a lot to passthroughs at longer ranges.
Seth keep up the testing and stay the course.................


----------



## sethro02

Thank you sir


----------



## manboy

i think that if your test included accurate points at 50 yards, there would be heads pulling away in this test, also to me there something to be shown if 1 head penetrate 26", and others 14" and yet the 14" penetration leads the test? Also very important is the angle test, how many of these heads would even penetrate at a 40 degree angle.....i know alot wouldn't

the jell should be 30" thick to control penetration of all heads.....thats what most of us western guys are looking for, I have never seen an elk, moose, with only 18" width of chest cavity.....


O but great test, and thanks for spending your time and funds to do the test!


----------



## UTGrad

bginvestor said:


> Seth, great testing..
> 
> I hunt in Arizona and long shots are common. In my opinion, a fixed and mechanical won't fly the same with a tuned bow. Fix blades tend to plane differently with larger surface areas. Your test does not consider performance past 20 years.
> 
> Also, some broadheads don't spin true as with some other brands. This drastically effects flying performance.
> 
> I shoot grim reapers which have a relatively low score on your list. I won't be changing broadheads this year because the reapers fly great out to 60 yards and I have shot 10 animals in South Africa with them so I know they are very effective in killing! Not one failure.
> 
> For those thinking of switching from grim reapers, think twice.. Lol


Don't count on it...some people are swearing by this test as the ultimate broadhead test


----------



## sethro02

The contraption for next test will not allow passthroughs...the average width inside of a deer is not nearly compared to big game so I will have to bases the contraption off the biggest of big game...i cant give to much away because im stii figuring things out but I can say the whole heavy vs light arrow at long distancess will come into play


----------



## UTGrad

crookedeye said:


> i'm sure someone has one of those laying around..
> 
> i'm sure glad i didnt buy the grim reapers..lol..
> 
> i always did like how the ulmer heads worked.


This is funny ^

Grim Reapers are one of the greatest heads in history with 10 years of real world proof they work.


----------



## Fortyneck

buckhunter1 said:


> Some guys are questioning the Ramcat being a fixed or mechanical. Why not just call it a hybrid and leave it at that...


I agree, 

even Smoke uses the word hybrid, which implies a merging of 2 designs, fixed and ???, not a pure fixed head, I have seen it listed by retailers with other mechs. 

Not to open up a can of worms, Idaho F&G considers Ramcat broadheads barbed and expandable/mechanical. Not sure how many other states feel the same way.


----------



## sethro02

Utgrad their are good and bad stories with every head!!!. Grim reaper seen my test! They did not dispute anything...i understand you really really like your grim reapers..let people think what they want too!


----------



## UTGrad

sethro02 said:


> Utgrad their are good and bad stories with every head!!!. Grim reaper seen my test! They did not dispute anything...i understand you really really like your grim reapers..let people think what they want too!


So what did Grim Reaper say?


----------



## bowhuntermn

UTGrad said:


> This is funny ^
> 
> Grim Reapers are one of the greatest heads in history with 10 years of real world proof they work.


Did you drink the "Grim Reaper" kool-aid or what? Stating they are one of the greatest heads in history is so far of a stretch it's funny. 

All broadheads will kill an animal, but you need to get off the kick you have about grim reaper. You like them and dispute how they were scored, state your opinion and get over it already.


----------



## mathewshooterxt

UTGrad said:


> So what did Grim Reaper say?


They said they wish that UTGrad guy would quit whining already, he's making us look bad.:wink:


----------



## Boghdóir

They said call UT and get your money back 

Just kidding, just kidding. Don't be mad.


----------



## sethro02

they did not give a yes or no why it didnt open...they were more concerned about the whitetailspecial breaking... i encourage jayce from grimreaper to speek about what happend to put it to rest already...utgrad i want this thread to stay on course...you have your anti seth broadhead test thread that you can talk about this on...i got no real answer from them on the dependability score...they wanted to know how i rate the heads etc. but their main concern was whitetail not opening and that if any of them opened while in flight....that was their 2 main concerns..


----------



## mt hunter22

very interested in the ulmer head and it would be great to throw in the NAP killzone then you would have most the new expandables covered..thanks for taking your time and money to do this,, always fun to see how stuff performs.


----------



## sethro02

I tested the killzone..it scored 26 out of 35


----------



## flopduster

I wonder how similar something like a clam shell is to bone? They have a pretty uniform thickness and taper, and density should be very similar as long as they are the same size and come from the same area.


----------



## manboy

sethro02 said:


> The contraption for next test will not allow passthroughs...the average width inside of a deer is not nearly compared to big game so I will have to bases the contraption off the biggest of big game...i cant give to much away because im stii figuring things out but I can say the whole heavy vs light arrow at long distancess will come into play


great i like it!!!!!!!!!!!!!


----------



## mt hunter22

haha. went back and saw this had 70 pages and started reading and saw that,, guess i should read the thread first..lol.. anyways thanks for doing this and the time and money spent..


----------



## sethro02

Ur welcome mt hunter


----------



## bginvestor

sethro02 said:


> Yes for you long shot guys the next test I set up will be 50 yd shots so flight score will be changing quite a bit...loojing into a hooter shooter to help with this


Build your own for $160. These are awesome. http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=1357120


----------



## chuckatuk

I wish price could be accounted some where.I was just looking at the LAS catalog and there is huge price difference between all heads tested.It would be nice to have a price per head listed too.That way people on a budget could use the best head in there price range.Just thinking out loud..lol


----------



## tiger77

I talked to jayce too a while back when this thing first got started and just told him he should look into it because of what happened with the first grim test. His reply was calm and all he asked was for the name of the person doing the test and I told him. Seemed like he believed in their product to me and I respect that. So utgrad, just chill man, the heads are great and people who shoot them know it and live by it. Just let Seth do his thing and have some fun.


----------



## 0nepin

What the heck I go and Build a new food plot and y'all let this thread to the second page.So close to 100,000 views.


----------



## tack09

Seth, I have been glued to this thread since the beginning. Lately I have lost a little interest with all different input. HOWEVER, If you add a 50yrd test for accuracy, I am all in.That is the one part of this test that is most important that is not factored in. 50yrd test = 200,000 views. Keep up the good work Sethro. Immeasurable gratitude for all this entertaining and informative information.


sethro02 said:


> Yes for you long shot guys the next test I set up will be 50 yd shots so flight score will be changing quite a bit...loojing into a hooter shooter to help with this


----------



## dorkbuck33

Seth . you really need to put utgrad on your ignore list. Then he will not continue to clutter your thread with his hate , as you stated, let him post on his own thread . I could care less that he is a Reaper fan boy , just sayin , put an end to it with a couple of clicks. I don't recall any AT member that has been such a cry baby for so long . For those that already have hit ignore , you have not missed any knowledge only more tears . :crybaby2::binkybaby::lalala:


----------



## Yorklobster

does the 100,000th viewer get to take home all the broadheads tested???!!!!


----------



## 0nepin

mathewshooterxt said:


> They said they wish that UTGrad guy would quit whining already, he's making us look bad.:wink:


Haha.. that only funny because it's true.


----------



## sethro02

Didnt know their was an ignore button..


----------



## dorkbuck33

sethro02 said:


> Didnt know their was an ignore button..


Sure , just go to "userCP" - scroll down aways , left side . Please , please do it for all the work and sacrifice that you have made . Heck , i might as well also as i am really angry over one person that doesn't appreciate what you have done . Best thread bar none in my opinion , ever since i joined .


----------



## seiowabow

UTGrad said:


> So what did Grim Reaper say?


I stay off AT for a few days and this guy is STILL whining?? Lmao...get a life.

Sent from my DROID4 using Tapatalk 2


----------



## LNGBOWFLYER

I am new here. This thread is awesome. It is also getting a lot of attention on some other threads. All of it has been positive. Keep up the good work. There will always be haters. I am a slick trick fan. Have killed numerous animals with it (mostly elk) and it worked great. I expected it to penetrate further in your test than it did. But it didn't. But I'm not all poopy faced about it. Maybe I'll change to the grizztrick since it did better. Or maybe I'll switch to the Shuttle T. Can't believe how far it penetrated.


----------



## sethro02

he has been ignored....thanks everyone for the support i was trying badly to test tonight but my axis arrows are all basically junk after all this testing...i will get more arrows tomorrow and continue....i do however have fmj's that weigh the same as the axis but i'll just buy new axis to make sure it stays fair...sorry guys


----------



## LNGBOWFLYER

Okay well hurry up because I want to see how the Swhacker does.


----------



## hardball15

Not to be a complete pain, but could you post all of your results so far with fixed and mechanical? If you havent been following, it makes it really hard to scroll back thru and get all the info.....I could do it, but I figure you have them already written down. Thanks for your time and testing.


----------



## sethro02

Page 66 at top..will repost in a bit thx


----------



## hardball15

thx


----------



## Super 91

sethro02 said:


> Page 66 at top..will repost in a bit thx


Seth, put that link to the spreadsheet in your signature line. Then it would be on every page.


----------



## sethro02

Wow thats genious!


----------



## seiowabow

0nepin said:


> Little hole in little hole out.


You obviously have never shot a deer with a grizz trick. There is no little hole out. The carnage is on scale with a mechanical, but my heads wont break or fail to open.

Sent from my DROID4 using Tapatalk 2


----------



## sethro02

eager to see grizztrick 2 results compared to other tricks


----------



## seiowabow

Me too Seth. 

Sent from my DROID4 using Tapatalk 2


----------



## BigGarr

what heads did you get today? im not trying to start any thing but for people who are bashing the reapers there not a bad head my dad has used them for a long time and has taken many many deer with them not trying to be a utgrad here just my opinion but this test isnt rigged thanks for the hard work.


----------



## sethro02

i have :

grizztrick 2
vipertrick
phathead sob
schwaker
sonoran 2 and 3 blade
wasp bullet
trophy taker terminal tlock


----------



## Bowhuntr64

sethro02 said:


> eager to see grizztrick 2 results compared to other tricks


Seth, I am wondering why you think the smaller the Slick Trick is, the LESS it has penetrated in your tests. Do you have any theories? This is really intriguing to me.


----------



## kdog23

There is a google spreadsheet posted that will give you all the results.


----------



## seiowabow

Bowhuntr64 said:


> Seth, I am wondering why you think the smaller the Slick Trick is, the LESS it has penetrated in your tests. Do you have any theories? This is really intriguing to me.


If you look at a grizztrick, it has a long ferrule. Pretty sure that slams into the wood, smashing it allowing the head to penetrate further. 

Sent from my DROID4 using Tapatalk 2


----------



## kdog23

kdog23 said:


> There is a google spreadsheet posted that will give you all the results.


I was beat to it and more precisely.


----------



## sethro02

Results in my sig


I possibly agree with the longer ferrule statement but want to shoot grizz 2's first because they have a ton of ferrule before blades start cutting


----------



## manboy

sethro02 said:


> Results in my sig
> 
> 
> I possibly agree with the longer ferrule statement but want to shoot grizz 2's first because they have a ton of ferrule before blades start cutting


 i tested them in plywood along with a few mechs......lets just say my grizz2 are up for sale, sadly broken blades, compared to mech.s that held up just fine.


----------



## seiowabow

manboy said:


> i tested them in plywood along with a few mechs......lets just say my grizz2 are up for sale, sadly broken blades, compared to mech.s that held up just fine.


I have a hard time believing that. 

Sent from my DROID4 using Tapatalk 2


----------



## Buckbadger

sethro02 said:


> Yes for you long shot guys the next test I set up will be 50 yd shots so flight score will be changing quite a bit...loojing into a hooter shooter to help with this


Cool, sounds good! if you are looking at accuracy, noise level, and overall penetration at a longer distance, my prediction is the TT Shuttle Black Op's will be hard to beat.


----------



## sixgunluv

Just bought some ViperTricks....curious how they do in the test.


----------



## UTGrad

seiowabow said:


> I have a hard time believing that.
> 
> Sent from my DROID4 using Tapatalk 2


Quit whining baby


----------



## MarksExtra

UTGrad said:


> Quit whining baby


Now what were those instruction for ignoring someone again?..Oh wait. There it is......Ahhhhh.....bliss...


----------



## mikajay

UTGrad said:


> Quit whining baby


What if you could just let us enjoy this thread and go elsewhere?

r.mika


----------



## sethro02

Looks like we will need a slick triick shootout


----------



## Super 91

As well as a T-Lock shootout! Shuttle vs Terminal.


----------



## sethro02

Yep terminal getting shot real soon


----------



## hooiserarcher

Ready to see more test. UTGRAD you are the baby. Grow up or move on. 
No one likes your 3 year old playground talk.

Sent from my DROID2 GLOBAL using Tapatalk 2


----------



## eltaco

Yes, I'm excited to see the terminal vs shuttle test!


----------



## sethro02

Gotta get some arrows today then ill get some testing done


----------



## Yorklobster

woodsman elite??


----------



## sethro02

We will see...gonna try to finish this soon


----------



## seiowabow

UTGrad said:


> Quit whining baby


You of all people talking ****? Lol...do you see me crying or starting a thread to bash Seth? Just suprised about them breaking, If anything slick tricks are tough.

Sent from my DROID4 using Tapatalk 2


----------



## Boghdóir

I am curious about that Viper Trick, also the Solid. What an awesome thread, what are we going to do when it's over?


----------



## Baggro1

Sethro02, do you have any theories as to why the c/o/c VPA broadhead would have only penetrated 11"? Perhaps I don't understand the penetration test. Regardless, great body of work. Thanks for all the effort!


----------



## 7sand8s

http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/attachment.php?attachmentid=1410807&d=1342281799

That is all that has been on my mind!!


----------



## Michael Myers

BigGarr said:


> what heads did you get today? im not trying to start any thing but for people who are bashing the reapers there not a bad head my dad has used them for a long time and has taken many many deer with them not trying to be a utgrad here just my opinion but this test isnt rigged thanks for the hard work.


I Dont think anybody has Bashed the Grim Reapers...Just some people understand it is a Test and it is what it is....Hail to the Reaper....


----------



## Michael Myers

UTGrad said:


> Quit whining baby


Seriously Bud..You need to go and get your Diaper changed....All you do is Whine and Complain about a Broadhead..Get over it and Move on or...Enjoy the thread...It is really sickening to have you post on this thread whistlin dixie for the Reaper...Everybody knows it kills Animals...Why are you getting your Diaper bunched up worrying about the Grim Reapers..Do you not have Confidence in your ability to use them?


----------



## 0nepin

Grizzlyman check out the ragedigger I put together this morning In the subforum ,I will finish the closed caskets this week,waiting for more part.check out the pick of the closed caskets and tell witch one you want.


----------



## Michael Myers

0nepin said:


> Grizzlyman check out the ragedigger I put together this morning In the subforum ,I will finish the closed caskets this week,waiting for more part.check out the pick of the closed caskets and tell witch one you want.


Wil do.Thanks onepin.Grizz


----------



## sethro02

Vpa penetrated very well for cut on contact imo


----------



## Baggro1

Thanks. My guess is that I don't understand the penetration testing dynamics; penetration vs. total penetration; the VPA vs. the Phathead vs. the Shuttle T., 11 vs. 21 vs. 26, respectively.


----------



## sethro02

Yhe penetration score Is 1 through 10...the contraption is 10" deep...if it was ild scoring which was 1 through 28.......which is length of my arrow I felt the scoring would have been too far off...a fieldpount woyld have won


----------



## 1badwood

Thanks for the test Seth. I just read 52 pages looking for razor tricks, have they been tested?


----------



## Bones816

I know it's been said that a field point would win but I don't think you've shot one yet. I know it's not very exciting but hey, let's just see what happens.


----------



## sethro02

razortricks have not been tested....that's the only other trick im looking for...ok i will shoot a fieldpoint


----------



## IowaAssassin

Any Wasp Jackhammers or Z3s in your possesion yet? Not impressed with the Z3s considering how tough the Jackhammers are. Would like to see them tested and will send you one if you would like.


----------



## k&j8

sethro02 said:


> Yhe penetration score Is 1 through 10...the contraption is 10" deep...if it was ild scoring which was 1 through 28.......which is length of my arrow I felt the scoring would have been too far off...a fieldpount woyld have won


I'm not sure how the field point would win, it would loose 10 points right out of the gate for sharp before and sharp after and could not penetrate farther than the Ulmer Edge and only slightly more than the Shuttle T's.


----------



## sethro02

Wasp is suppose to be contacting me so ill let you know...may try to test tonight


----------



## sethro02

My point was just that 28 pts is way above the other point scales so it would throw it way off


----------



## IowaAssassin

Dealt with Wasp customer service before, can't say enough about how good they are. Great people and they stand behind their product.


----------



## Esteban9770

I bought Wasp Bullets this spring to use this season....so I'm curious to see how they'll fare........


----------



## sethro02

Yea I hear that as well...i have the wasp bullets to shoot for now until I get jackhammers


----------



## IowaAssassin

Looking forward to another round, thanks for the testing.


----------



## sethro02

Trying to play nice to wifey so I can sneek to garage and shoot


----------



## Boghdóir

Tell her I said pleeeeeease...


----------



## Yorklobster

seth02.com should be coming out ? You should post all your results there and sell advertising space. Pay for all your experiments and a few hunting trips!


----------



## sethro02

Ha we will see..their is alot in the works


----------



## sethro02

here we go!!! Round 7 Fixed heads!

1. slick trick vipertrick
2. slick trick grizztrick 2
3. trophy taker terminal tlock


----------



## eltaco

That's a great fixed head shootout! Can't wait to see the results!


----------



## catfish2

Someone gimmee the "short version" on a spreadsheet question.......i searched the thread but never found it........what is the difference on th spreadsheet between "Pen" and "Total Penetration (tiebreaker)". ????? Thanks ahead


----------



## flopduster

I like the wasp jak hammer 1 3/4" mech. Have had good results with them. Tried the z force last year and was not impressed, the blades broke out of the head on every deer we shot (3)


----------



## 0nepin

Looks like a battle , I'll put my money on the t lock.


----------



## Fortyneck

I'll take the Viper Trick.


----------



## Kb83

I'm going with the trophy taker. Was hoping the phathead SOB was in this one I would of been all over it. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk.


----------



## Griz34

I think I'd put my money on the Terminal T-Lock also.


----------



## Michael Myers

Hey Seth...Did the Rage 2 Blade and the Other Head show up yet?Great job..I Am going with the Viper trick.Grizz


----------



## sethro02

penetration score is 1 through 10...the contraption is 10 inches deep...total penetration is extra info for you guys on how much it actually penetrated...if it went in for example...16'' total...it would get a 10...and at the end if there is a tiebreak we will use total penetration is actually went through


----------



## sethro02

no it did not...sorry guys i was limited to shooting 3 heads only because i didnt get new arrows today...i had 1 arrow to do these heads with...i will get more arrows.


----------



## Michael Myers

sethro02 said:


> no it did not...sorry guys i was limited to shooting 3 heads only because i didnt get new arrows today...i had 1 arrow to do these heads with...i will get more arrows.


Prolly early this week,Usually takes a week or so from up here.Grizz


----------



## catfish2

Thanks!


----------



## sethro02

qmb if your on here i need help uploading some of these please.


----------



## sethro02

slick trick viper trick test results:
3.5" total cut surface, 1 1/8"x 7/8" diameter

total penetration- 7.5"
durability- 5
dependability- 5
sharp before- 5
sharp after - 4
flight- 5
total score- 31.5 (total penetration, 7.5")

gel pic


----------



## sethro02

sorry guys i'll work on the other 2 viper pics. let me get through these other heads please.


----------



## sethro02

slick trick grizztrick 2 test results:
3.15" total cut surface, 1 1/4"x 1 1/4" cut diameter

penetration- 7
durability- 5
dependability- 5
sharp before- 5
sharp after- 4
flight- 5
total score- 31 out of 35 (total penetration, 7")

grizz 2


----------



## sethro02

grizz 2


----------



## sethro02

grizz 2 gel


----------



## sethro02

trophy taker terminal tlock test results:
3" total cut surface, 1 1/16th cut diameter

penetration- 10
durability- 5
sharp before - 4
sharp after- 3
flight- 5 ( whisper quiet!)
total score- 32 out of 35 ( total penetration, 15" !!!!!!!!!!)

tlock


----------



## sethro02

tlock gel


----------



## 0nepin

If your only going to get a small hole it better be through both sides.Slicktrick make every other broadhead seem very quiet,wait untill you shoot them at 360fps.


----------



## sethro02

onepin i can tell your eager to see some frankenheads goin through this soon! gelatin massacre!


----------



## 0nepin

sethro02 said:


> onepin i can tell your eager to see some frankenheads goin through this soon! gelatin massacre!


Yea I am ,can't wait to see your next franken head.I was not suprized that the slicktrick only got about the same penatration as Ray Charles .


----------



## seiowabow

Seth why do you think the original grizz got better penetration than the grizz 2? Onepin, if you hit a deer where your suppose to you don't need a 4" diameter cut.

Sent from my DROID4 using Tapatalk 2


----------



## Bowhuntr64

Not a big surprise the Terminal T Lock penetrated so well with the smaller cutting diameter. Still a great head if you want to make sure you get two holes!


----------



## bowhunter727

Yes but if you hit a deer in the right spot with a 3" head and a 1" head 3" head gonna do a hell of alot more damage and on the not so great gut shots gonna be even better! But you also gotta shoot the right set up for the big cut!


----------



## Bowhuntr64

Seth, with the Grizz Trick 2 penetrating so much less than the original do you question the consistency of yor gel at all? Not trying to be disrespectful or ungrateful in any way. I, too, am an engineer and I am just being inquisitive. In the future you may want to periodically retest some heads thru other gel batches just to rule this out


----------



## bowhunter727

How do i get to broad head sub forum


----------



## brokenlittleman

seiowabow said:


> Seth why do you think the original grizz got better penetration than the grizz 2? Onepin, if you hit a deer where your suppose to you don't need a 4" diameter cut.
> 
> Sent from my DROID4 using Tapatalk 2


It says the original grizztrick was an anomaly. Standard, magnum, vipertrick and grizztrick 2 were all very close which is what I expected.


----------



## sethro02

Grizz 2 did not do as good because of its big cutting diameter and steep steep blade angle....in my opinion...if I cranked my bow up im sure I could have rammed it through the other side...grizz 2 lost alot of momentum before gel


----------



## seiowabow

brokenlittleman said:


> It says the original grizztrick was an anomaly. Standard, magnum, vipertrick and grizztrick 2 were all very close which is what I expected.


Unless it's reshot, it can't be ruled an anomaly. I expected the opposite. I thought they would penetrate based on cutting width. Standard the most, etc.

Sent from my DROID4 using Tapatalk 2


----------



## sethro02

Guys the only heads left for sale right now are 2 blade bloodrunners..$25 tyd...im holding off on selling others for now...may need them in future testing


----------



## brokenlittleman

I am not sure but I believe the only difference between the original and the 2 is the ferrel so cutting diameter and blade angle are the same.


----------



## seiowabow

The ferrule is longer and the blade angle is steeper because the blades are shorter.

Sent from my DROID4 using Tapatalk 2


----------



## brokenlittleman

seiowabow said:


> Unless it's reshot, it can't be ruled an anomaly. I expected the opposite. I thought they would penetrate based on cutting width. Standard the most, etc.
> 
> Sent from my DROID4 using Tapatalk 2


I agree I thought the smallest would penetrate the most and outside of the original grizztrick they were pretty close. There is only 1/8th" difference between the standard and the mag.


----------



## brokenlittleman

seiowabow said:


> The ferrule is longer and *the blade angle is steeper because the blades are shorter*.
> 
> Sent from my DROID4 using Tapatalk 2


Not sure about that but I would love for slick trick guy to answer that one.


----------



## sethro02

Ur right...ferrule is completely different...grizz 2 has the smooth ferrule...i wonder if thats it....if it had that chisel tip it may have punched through easier


----------



## sethro02

Blade angle on grizz 1 and 2 are the same! I just looked


----------



## brokenlittleman

sethro02 said:


> Blade angle on grizz 1 and 2 are the same! I just looked


Sounds like a re-test of the original is in order.


----------



## 0nepin

seiowabow said:


> Seth why do you think the original grizz got better penetration than the grizz 2? Onepin, if you hit a deer where your suppose to you don't need a 4" diameter cut.
> 
> Sent from my DROID4 using Tapatalk 2


Your right right but you will get a much shorter blood trail with a big head in the right spot.


----------



## sethro02

Why a retest on original grizz?


----------



## seiowabow

sethro02 said:


> Ur right...ferrule is completely different...grizz 2 has the smooth ferrule...i wonder if thats it....if it had that chisel tip it may have punched through easier


Thats why i have stuck to the original. I don't understand the purpose of the smooth ferrule.

Sent from my DROID4 using Tapatalk 2


----------



## brokenlittleman

sethro02 said:


> Why a retest on original grizz?


You really think there could be a 3 inch difference in penetration becasue of ferrule?


----------



## seiowabow

sethro02 said:


> Why a retest on original grizz?


What else could cause it then? The head is the same except for a completely different ferrule design?

Sent from my DROID4 using Tapatalk 2


----------



## sethro02

Grizz 1's short chisel ferrule punched through..grizz 2 smooth ferrule in my opinion just got "wedged" in first media thus losing that half inch of penetration against the grizz 1...imo


----------



## sethro02

Sorry meant to put two and half inch difference


----------



## sethro02

Their is a pattern with the fixed heads..that chisel tip on thend of some of these heads are breaking through that wood..that means alot when you still have to shove blades through...


----------



## 206Moose

Still no true mechs in the top 14. Message is pretty clear to me. 

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2


----------



## bowhunter727

Yea only becouse the tottal damage the head coused is not being taken into consideration with penatration being worth the most the lil tiny heads will always win


----------



## Boghdóir

Word.


----------



## 206Moose

bowhunter727 said:


> Yea only becouse the tottal damage the head coused is not being taken into consideration with penatration being worth the most the lil tiny heads will always win


Like I've said before without pass through blood trail is light now matter how big the entry. Of course im referring to treestand shots. Exit hole is the most important criteria for a good blood trail. 

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2


----------



## seiowabow

I am also most interested in a pass through and nothing to fail. 

Sent from my DROID4 using Tapatalk 2


----------



## 0nepin

seiowabow said:


> I am also most interested in a pass through and nothing to fail.
> 
> Sent from my DROID4 using Tapatalk 2


Nothing to fail? You better walk to your hunting spot and get a real big rock.But you could still trip and you could miss with the rock ,oh well you might as well stay home.


----------



## 206Moose

0nepin said:


> Nothing to fail? You better walk to your hunting spot and get a real big rock.But you could still trip and you could miss with the rock ,oh well you might as well stay home.


What? I don't get it. 

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2


----------



## pinski79

NTYMADATER said:


> I don't get it.
> 
> Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2


we noticed days ago


----------



## seiowabow

As in mechanical heads. Yes i realize you like giant mechanical heads. 

Sent from my DROID4 using Tapatalk 2


----------



## 0nepin

seiowabow said:


> As in mechanical heads. Yes i realize you like giant mechanical heads.
> 
> Sent from my DROID4 using Tapatalk 2


Your bow is more likely to derail befor a mech head truly fail you.


----------



## seiowabow

That maybe true. To be fair, I have never used them. 

Sent from my DROID4 using Tapatalk 2


----------



## qmb9015

sethro02 said:


> sorry guys i'll work on the other 2 viper pics. let me get through these other heads please.


sorry for the delay but here are the vipertrick pictures.


----------



## qmb9015

here is the other vipertrick picture


----------



## sethro02

Thx quentin...


----------



## 206Moose

pinski79 said:


> we noticed days ago


What a stupid post. If you have nothing intelligent to post save the space. I refuse to have a battle of wits with someone that is obviously unarmed. 

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2


----------



## 0nepin

sethro02 said:


> titanium extreme
> View attachment 1413194


Compare the cut from Ray Charles and then viper trick. And they have the same penatration.GET IT !!!!


----------



## 206Moose

0nepin said:


> Your bow is more likely to derail befor a mech head truly fail you.


I respectfully disagree with that statement. I've never saw a bow derail while hunting but i have seen mechs fail. Had a client bounce one off the shoulder of a mature buck. Funny thing is it didnt run and he killed it with the second shot. 

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2


----------



## seiowabow

0nepin said:


> Compare the cut from Ray Charles and then viper trick. And they have the same penatration.GET IT !!!!


Never had an issue with a fixed blade head. If I was to try one, it would be the Ulmer. And yes I do believe mechanicals have failed for people.

Sent from my DROID4 using Tapatalk 2


----------



## eltaco

What post number has the results again? Did the shuttle or terminal win between the two?


----------



## 206Moose

0nepin said:


> Compare the cut from Ray Charles and then viper trick. And they have the same penatration.GET IT !!!!


Are we looking at the same spreadsheet?

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2


----------



## 0nepin

NTYMADATER said:


> I respectfully disagree with that statement. I've never saw a bow derail while hunting but i have seen mechs fail. Had a client bounce one off the shoulder of a mature buck. Funny thing is it didnt run and he killed it with the second shot.
> 
> Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2


If your client hit the deer in the shoulder the your client failed,and he would of had a fixed head he would just wounded the deer.one of my friend was hunting elk a few years ago and had to let down to get a better shot and his d350 derailed on him.


----------



## 0nepin

seiowabow said:


> Never had an issue with a fixed blade head. If I was to try one, it would be the Ulmer. And yes I do believe mechanicals have failed for people.
> 
> Sent from my DROID4 using Tapatalk 2


No chance bud.no way it will deploy early but you might bend or brake a blade but you can do that with any head.


----------



## seiowabow

And the d350 derailment could be his fault as well. If the d350 is let down slowly, even with the shallow cam, it is usually fine.
Fixed blades can and have blown through shoulders.
Sent from my DROID4 using Tapatalk 2


----------



## 0nepin

NTYMADATER said:


> Are we looking at the same spreadsheet?
> 
> Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2


The deer won't be scared of what's on the spread sheet , but one look at those pic and they might die right there.


----------



## Kb83

If your shooting onepins rig you can shoot a soup ladle through both shoulders. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk.


----------



## Fortyneck

0nepin said:


> The deer won't be scared of what's on the spread sheet , but one look at those pic and they might die right there.


They'd have to figure out how to use the internet first.


----------



## 206Moose

0nepin said:


> If your client hit the deer in the shoulder the your client failed,and he would of had a fixed head he would just wounded the deer.one of my friend was hunting elk a few years ago and had to let down to get a better shot and his d350 derailed on him.


So you're gonna blame the failure on the hunter. You might want to rethink that one. From seths test it would seem the fixed heads penetrate better on shoulder hits. There is no argument that seths spreadsheet shows the fixed heads are outperforming mechs. 

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2


----------



## 0nepin

seiowabow said:


> And the d350 derailment could be his fault as well. If the d350 is let down slowly, even with the shallow cam, it is usually fine.
> Fixed blades can and have blown through shoulders.
> Sent from my DROID4 using Tapatalk 2


try staying focused on a let down with a big elk at 30yrds , with just about any other bow he would of been fine.and if he bounced an arrow off the shoulder with mech he would not of had enuff ke/mo to get the job done with a fixed.


----------



## 0nepin

NTYMADATER said:


> So you're gonna blame the failure on the hunter. You might want to rethink that one. From seths test it would seem the fixed heads penetrate better on shoulder hits. There is no argument that seths spreadsheet shows the fixed heads are outperforming mechs.
> 
> Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2


The best penatrating heads is a mech right?


----------



## eltaco

Did I come to the wrong thread? I thought this was the one where we discusssed the factual data on how these tests performed in the test at hand. I think you guys can bicker over fixed vs mechanical elsewhere... lets keep this one focused on the results rather than opinion.


----------



## 206Moose

eltaco said:


> Did I come to the wrong thread? I thought this was the one where we discusssed the factual data on how these tests performed in the test at hand. I think you guys can bicker over fixed vs mechanical elsewhere... lets keep this one focused on the results rather than opinion.


Thats the point im trying to make with onepin. He keeps posting pics of mech entrance holes and refuses to look at the actual data. The results show fixed heads are performing better in seths test. 

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2


----------



## 0nepin

NTYMADATER said:


> Thats the point im trying to make with onepin. He keeps posting pics of mech entrance holes and refuses to look at the actual data. The results show fixed heads are performing better in seths test.
> 
> Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2


The data does not show witch head would of killed the deer the most efficient .


----------



## Fortyneck

0nepin said:


> The data does not show witch head killed the deer the cleanest .


----------



## kernelklink

Guys come on, ya just can't argue with onepin. He is the "most educated archer/hunter of 160"florida whitetails/know all bowman of the modern era/slick trick hater" in the world. You dont even have to ask him, he will tell you.


----------



## 0nepin

pinski79 said:


> we noticed days ago


Haha yea I think I'm wasting my time.


----------



## 206Moose

0nepin said:


> The data does not show witch head would of killed the deer the most efficient .


What color is the sky in your world? You obviously need to conduct your own test since you refuse to accept sethros data. 

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2


----------



## buckhunter1

My take: Mechanical = Bigger hole, better flight, and better blood trail. You have a better chance of hitting far back than you do hitting shoulder unless you are aiming at it. I have had good luck with mechanicals and the last fixed head I used was a thunderhead back in the day. I tried a 4 bladed Muzzy once, but didn't like the flight. 

Now I am converting to the Hybrids.. The best of both worlds... Grave Digger or Ramcat, and yes I believe they can blow through a shoulder!


----------



## 0nepin

kernelklink said:


> Guys come on, ya just can't argue with onepin. He is the "most educated archer/hunter of 160"florida whitetails/know all bowman of the modern era/slick trick hater" in the world. You dont even have to ask him, he will tell you.


you must shoot slicktricks.Nice post for# 28.


----------



## Porkrind

Here we go again.


----------



## 0nepin

NTYMADATER said:


> What color is the sky in your world? You obviously need to conduct your own test since you refuse to accept sethros data.
> 
> Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2


If you compare wound channel from sethro test it support what I'm saying , if you only look a scoring then it supports what you are saying.Did you not see what the gravedigger and ray Charles did to the gel?If you accept the test for what it shows all heads get through and make to the off side shoulder and only very few get through both shoulders.but look at the carnage different between the viper trick and the ray Charles , no comparison but be cause the blades held up better on the viper trick it scored better even those it did not do any where near the damage that ray Charles did. Ray needs new blades and the viper trick just need a little touch up and it ready to kill again and that's the difference .Don't for get he is only shooting a 55lb bow.


----------



## 206Moose

0nepin said:


> If you compare wound channel from sethro test it support what I'm saying , if you only look a scoring then it supports what you are saying.Did you not see what the gravedigger and ray Charles did to the gel?If you accept the test for what it shows all heads get through and make to the off side shoulder and only very few get through both shoulders.but look at the carnage different between the viper trick and the ray Charles , no comparison but be cause the blades held up better on the viper trick it scored better even those it did not do any where near the damage that ray Charles did. Ray needs new blades and the viper trick just need a little touch up and it ready to kill again and that's the difference .


Im just looking at sethros spreadsheet. Im not adding any info or taking anything out. His data plainly shows fixed heads outperform mechs in his test. Some other guy made a different spreadsheet for the mech guys. Thats the thread you need to be posting on. You can try and twist it anyway you want but the data doesn't lie. If you can't read a spreadsheet im sorry. 

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2


----------



## 0nepin

Your only looking at part of the info that Seth has posted for us, why do you think he posted pic?The way you are looking at it a real sharp field tip would win.do you want to go hunting with a sharp field tip? If you put it in the right spot it will kill.


NTYMADATER said:


> Im just looking at sethros spreadsheet. Im not adding any info or taking anything out. His data plainly shows fixed heads outperform mechs in his test. Some other guy made a different spreadsheet for the mech guys. Thats the thread you need to be posting on. You can try and twist it anyway you want but the data doesn't lie. If you can't read a spreadsheet im sorry.
> 
> Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2


----------



## 0nepin

Porkrind said:


> Here we go again.


AGAIN
I just got through watching tropical thunder.


----------



## talon1961

Nice job testing Sethro! Too bad we have to search through the clutter of opinions to get to the results, but some people just get offensive when opinions clash. They just need to realize that this is only a test using simulated materials representing different media through which the broadheads travel. A deer killed by one broadhead will be just as dead as one killed with a different head. Some will cut a 3" hole and barely pass through and others will cut a 1" hole and bury 10 inches in the ground. This test is only a comparison on what each broadhead will do through vinyl, wood, and gel, but is a good indicator of what it can possibly do through a live animal. 8" penetration through this material may relate to complete passthrough on a deer and complete passthrough on this test may relate to a passthrough and with the arrow buried 10 inches into the ground. Who knows for sure. I believe your tests are valid since the bow, arrows, and target media remain constant (assuming that the plywood has no fluctuation in quality and the gel is consistent in density). Once again, good job with the tests sethro, and thanks for all of your hard work and expense. I've learned a lot.


----------



## 0nepin

What we were debating was ray Charles and the viper trick penetrated the same even thoe the ray Charles had a way bigger cut..With a 107,000 views in 15 days your gonna get some clutter.


----------



## 0nepin

kernelklink said:


> Guys come on, ya just can't argue with onepin. He is the "most educated archer/hunter of 160"florida whitetails/know all bowman of the modern era/slick trick hater" in the world. You dont even have to ask him, he will tell you.


Obama is that you? I wont feel bad about being successful , I know a little about every aspect of deer hunt and I'm fine with that.


----------



## MarksExtra

at least your not at a loss for words. :zip:


----------



## eltaco

Hey Seth,

I was just looking at the results of the Shuttle-T and the Terminal-T that you just tested. I see that the Shuttle penetrated 26" and the terminal did 15". The pics don't appear to show 11" difference between the two. Have you changed the way these are being measured, or are the pictures simply deceiving me? Very curious how those two compare since they're the exact same ferrule, just a different blade design.

Thanks!


----------



## evasiveone

NTYMADATER said:


> Im just looking at sethros spreadsheet. Im not adding any info or taking anything out. His data plainly shows fixed heads outperform mechs in his test. Some other guy made a different spreadsheet for the mech guys. Thats the thread you need to be posting on. You can try and twist it anyway you want but the data doesn't lie. If you can't read a spreadsheet im sorry.
> 
> Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2


The other spreadsheet was not "set up for the mech guys". It simply took into account the amount of actual tissue cut by the blades and since the mechanical blades usually cause more damage they did well. 
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/lv?key=0AnGgPEMFDKmhdFFzd2d3RGxycmdmTUV5U0hKMWl0cGc&f=true&noheader=true&gid=0


----------



## Norwegian Woods

It would be nice if people took the cat fight to another thread.


----------



## sethro02

The shuttle t was buried to fletchings...i measure from end of shaft back towards first media..let me chexk if I missed something....


----------



## sethro02

I asked nicely to stop posting that spreadsheet on this thread!!!!!!


----------



## sethro02

If it matters to the schwaker fans it will be the 2" version to be tested


----------



## Binney59

evasiveone said:


> The other spreadsheet was not "set up for the mech guys". It simply took into account the amount of actual tissue cut by the blades and since the mechanical blades usually cause more damage they did well.
> https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/lv?key=0AnGgPEMFDKmhdFFzd2d3RGxycmdmTUV5U0hKMWl0cGc&f=true&noheader=true&gid=0


So I can find this later. Thanks for doing this by the way!


----------



## gdouty

sethro02 said:


> If it matters to the schwaker fans it will be the 2" version to be tested


I think it matters...stands to reason that the smaller blades would penetrate farther, but we have seen that disputed. Can you confirm that the swhacker 2 inch is 100 grain?


----------



## sethro02

yes i will confirm that...i'll look for a 1.75" schwaker as well


----------



## Ned250

Updated spreadsheet with latest test results and have updated all results links. I'll work on getting the rest of the cut info during the week.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AgJEvQwzfDRZdGxzdC15R0JIZDJGQ1J4bVpGV1pTWHc


----------



## Gamikatsu

Seth,

I greatly appreciate your time, money, and effort on this test. I think you are doing a spot on accross the board test. I do think that people are getting real bent out of shape over there fixed vs mech head arguments and i seriously doubt that will ever stop. 

With that being said, i shoot an excalibur vortex crossbow, slinging my easton firebolts like lasers at 330 fps tipped with 100 grain G5 montecs (SS). My deer last year, i shot with a carbon express Torrid 100 grain expandable with cut on contact tip, it sliced through the ribs, massive enterance and exit hole, broke a total of 4 ribs, made the heart into sushi, bent one of the expandable blades, and another one of the blades broke off in the dirt.... oh the arrow flew through the deer and buried 18" into mud.... i got literally perfect expansion, cut, penetration, and performance out of a 4 dollar broadhead. but i'm sure in your test it would get chewed to living H311... just goes to show you that certain broadheads will shine and others will fail. depending on situation.

Seth, if you have not tested a CX Torrid 100 yet, i could buy and send you one.... 12 dollars a 3 pack, and they work so well....

Gamikatsu/// Edward


----------



## sethro02

Thanks guys..i do have a torrid to test..it will be in round 8 mechs...sorry bout the arguing to read through...next time it will be videotaped so you can just watch the testing and not have to read posts..


----------



## Gamikatsu

Seth,

is it a torrid 100 with the large cut on contact tip, or the Torrid SS with the trocar tip?

Gami // Edward


----------



## Longbow42

sethro02 said:


> ram cat after math
> View attachment 1408869


Was that the 2012 version or last years? Thanks.


----------



## sethro02

Ramcat I was told was 2011..because it had 1 oring? Ill chk on torrid


----------



## sethro02

the torrid is the chisel BUT its 85 grains so it will not be tested. the schwaker is 100 grains...so as of now the next test will be. 

1. schwaker 2''
2. phathead sob (mechanical/ fixed hybrid)


----------



## Quartermoons

Is the sob still being made? I didn't see it on steel forces web page.


----------



## sethro02

mail call..........carbon express f15 showed up


----------



## sethro02

yes it is they do not advertise right now though...you have to call and special order them! im excited to see what it does.


----------



## ORROSS334

Ready to see that F-15 results. I know real world results just interested in the testing


----------



## sethro02

hey guys i think i am noticing the popularity of the thread possibly going down. i understand their are alot of things to read through so if we all help out by posting something relative to the testing and things of that nature we can get this back on track....i will be shooting mechanicals round 7 soon this morning. thanks


----------



## Buckbadger

bowhunter727 said:


> Yea only becouse the tottal damage the head coused is not being taken into consideration with penatration being worth the most the lil tiny heads will always win


And they will always win with a shoulder hit. As we know any head hitting it's mark will get the job done. But what kills me is remarks from some shooting expandables claiming gut shots will fair better, I agree. But if you aim for a centered vital shot the shoulder and upper leg bone come into play way before a gut shot. And due to some high angled shots, now the shoulder is even more in play. So with that a couple inches off with certain shots can put you into these bones, where one would have to be a foot off to gut shoot one?

Just don't understand why some that shoot expandables even take a gut shot in consideration as a better choice of head, where a upper leg bone or shoulder is more likely scenario being it's in the area you are aiming at, not a foot back like the gut area. I know where I aim, and I'll always take the head that can blow through these areas, if needed, or I'm off a bit.


----------



## goathollow

talon1961 said:


> Nice job testing Sethro! Too bad we have to search through the clutter of opinions to get to the results, but some people just get offensive when opinions clash. They just need to realize that this is only a test using simulated materials representing different media through which the broadheads travel. A deer killed by one broadhead will be just as dead as one killed with a different head. Some will cut a 3" hole and barely pass through and others will cut a 1" hole and bury 10 inches in the ground. This test is only a comparison on what each broadhead will do through vinyl, wood, and gel, but is a good indicator of what it can possibly do through a live animal. 8" penetration through this material may relate to complete passthrough on a deer and complete passthrough on this test may relate to a passthrough and with the arrow buried 10 inches into the ground. Who knows for sure. I believe your tests are valid since the bow, arrows, and target media remain constant (assuming that the plywood has no fluctuation in quality and the gel is consistent in density). Once again, good job with the tests sethro, and thanks for all of your hard work and expense. I've learned a lot.


Well said!! I might add, that there are probably 100 different broadheads on the market capable of killing a deer, combine that with the number of bows, sights, rests and other gadgets we use on modern bows; there is literally an endless combination of choices and that is what makes bow hunting so darn much fun!! Sure would be nice if everyone could simply voice their opinions and preferences without being argumentative or critcal (especially of Seth's testing).


----------



## Gamikatsu

Eagerly awaiting the info seth. also, i think the Torrid brodheads come with a 15 grain coller, to make them 100 gr. see if yours came with one.


----------



## sethro02

ok thanks guys....just got done shooting!


----------



## qmb9015

if you need help with pics im online so if you want the img codes i can send them to you so that you can put them in with the results


----------



## sethro02

here it is round 8 mechanical/ mechanical/ fixed
1. Steel force phathead sob...this is a fixed head with expansion blades!!!
2. Schwaker 2"


----------



## sethro02

ok im about to start so i'll let you know, thanks quentin


----------



## sethro02

steelforce phathead sob test results:
4" total cut surface, or 1.5" x 3/4" cut diameter

penetration- 7.5
durability- 5
dependability- 5 ( per steelforce its not suppose to open on a hard impact unless their is hide for the expansion blades to catch on...these expansion blades are super sharp like the gravediggers this is why it slices through the first media!)

sharp before- 5
sharp after- 4
flight- 5
total score- 31.5 out of 35 (total penetration, 7.5")


----------



## sethro02

i emailed you a pick quentin


----------



## sethro02

phathead gel entrance ( deployed)


----------



## qmb9015

phathead sob


----------



## sethro02

schwaker 2" test results: (no hate please! it is what it is, a test!)
2.15 total cut surface, or 2" cut diamter

penetration- 9
durability- 2 ( blades bent,,ferrule caved in, cannot re use)
dependability- 5 ( per their website it isnt suppose to be open until inside the body cavity)
sharp before- 4
sharp after- 3
flight- 5
total score- 28 out of 35 (total penetration, 9")


----------



## sethro02

schwaker


----------



## sethro02

emailed another pic quentin


----------



## sethro02

schwaker


----------



## sethro02

^^^^^^^^^^^^schwaker entry!


----------



## sethro02

schwaker gel exit


----------



## qmb9015

schwaker 2"


----------



## sethro02

schwaker damage......notice inside the ferrule where the blades sit while in closed position..the blades are bent as well but even if they were not you can not fold it back up...the ferrule basically caved in and was squeezed together


----------



## sethro02

you will notice i gave rage heads a 3 for durability...that is because you can simply replace the blades...i had to give schwaker a 2 because the ferrule cannot be reused as well as the blades.


----------



## sethro02

mail call.........exodus swept is here!!!!!!!


----------



## 0nepin

Did the ferrule get damage on this one ? It only got a 0 for durability .


sethro02 said:


> Rage Titanium Extreme RC test results:
> 3.37" total cut surface
> 
> penetration- 7
> durability- 0 Fail
> dependability- 4 (one blade not all the way open at impact)
> sharp before- 5
> sharp after- 5
> flight- 5
> total score - 25 out of 35 ( total penetration, 7") this head should have got extra points for sparks!!! j/k
> View attachment 1413189


----------



## robd

seth; awesome test thanks for your time. I was hoping the ramcats and exodus did well. your test proved that!!


----------



## sethro02

onepin that one the blade broke...i had to give it a zero to stay fair with other ones that broke


----------



## sethro02

ferrule was good on the rages...but i stated it the beginning if anything breaks its a 0. sorry...my next set of testings i'll have to really come up with the perfect durability score that most people think is fair. but for now i have to keep it like it is.


----------



## Ned250

New tests added - https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AgJEvQwzfDRZdGxzdC15R0JIZDJGQ1J4bVpGV1pTWHc


----------



## seiowabow

Seems to be a reoccurring theme with the mechs and low durability scores.

Sent from my DROID4 using Tapatalk 2


----------



## 0nepin

sethro02 said:


> onepin that one the blade broke...i had to give it a zero to stay fair with other ones that broke


That's fair.


----------



## sethro02

thanks ned 250...updated results in my sig!!!

thanks onepin


----------



## TimmyZ7

My buddy had the same issue with the Swhacker ferrule bending on him when he hit hard bone. We have since moved away from them due to the small entries and seeing the integrity issue he had with them. I bit my tongue reviewing the Swhacker on numerous threads due to the loyal fan base but I tried it along with my hunting buds and it's not for us anymore.


----------



## Norwegian Woods

seiowabow said:


> Seems to be a reoccurring theme with the mechs and low durability scores.
> 
> Sent from my DROID4 using Tapatalk 2


Think it would help a lot if they made them with high quality steel ferrules. But I guess they are concerned about the weight....


----------



## Fortyneck

seiowabow said:


> Seems to be a reoccurring theme with the mechs and low durability scores.
> 
> Sent from my DROID4 using Tapatalk 2


Yeah, I'll take a 4 in sharp after, as the only loss of points versus the possibility of breakages and failed deployment.


----------



## gdouty

TimmyZ7 said:


> My buddy had the same issue with the Swhacker ferrule bending on him when he hit hard bone. We have since moved away from them due to the small entries and seeing the integrity issue he had with them. I bit my tongue reviewing the Swhacker on numerous threads due to the loyal fan base but I tried it along with my hunting buds and it's not for us anymore.


Timmy, did you have those issues with the 1.75 inch swhackers or 2 inch? Because swhacker specifically advertises their durability with the videos of them shooting through a barrel and plywood, it is interesting that it did so poorly here. I am curious if the smaller/shorter ferrule would hold up any better under this test...

It did put a pretty nasty exit hole in the gel...entry being small is a concern of mine also...


----------



## TimmyZ7

Norwegian Woods said:


> Think it would help a lot if they made them with high quality steel ferrules. But I guess they are concerned about the weight....


I agree. I don't think it's because it is mechanical because if you shot it without the blades the ferrule had the potential to bend the same way. Have you seen the test on AT where an aluminum muzzy and a steel slick trick were shot into a cinder block?? The muzzy peeled like a banana while the slick trick remained intact. It is more a consistency of long aluminum ferrules and material inferiority then it is in regard to its function; be it mechanical or fixed.


----------



## sethro02

all good questions guys...i am trying to get schwaker 1.75" to compare. did they shoot the 2" in the durability test?!


----------



## TimmyZ7

Seth, I will send you my unused Swhacker 1.75" in the mail today! As stated, I will not be using them and gave up on them last season when I lost confidence in the broadhead. BTW, save the extra shrink bands so you can check this one out an put a fresh band on for testing.


----------



## Buckbadger

Originally Posted by gdouty

I am excited about the Swhacker test, cant wait to see the results. I have shot Strikers for years and I am considering changing to Swhackers or Gravediggers. 

I shot Vortex 2 blades for a long time, I think those are worth testing. I know several people that still use them. Anyone else interested in seeing the Vortex tested?





Buckbadger said:


> I'm sure some might be intrested, but both heads have big blades and a long ferrule, which I think will not fair well? My prediction is heads like these will not preform that well with total scores in the 20's to mid 20's , bent ferrules and blades, possibly break? with very minimal overall pentration. Although the Ulmer has surprised me, but don't think these will fair well?


Pretty much nailed it! made this predition on page 69, some broadheads you can just look at and know the outcome.

schwaker 2" test results: (no hate please! it is what it is, a test!)
2.15 total cut surface, or 2" cut diamter

penetration- 9
durability- 2 ( blades bent,,ferrule caved in, cannot re use)
dependability- 5 ( per their website it isnt suppose to be open until inside the body cavity)
sharp before- 4
sharp after- 3
flight- 5
total score- 28 out of 35 (total penetration, 9")


----------



## gdouty

sethro02 said:


> all good questions guys...i am trying to get schwaker 1.75" to compare. did they shoot the 2" in the durability test?!


I do not recall seeing the 2 inch in any of their online durability test videos. I remember them all being black, not green like the 2 inch.


----------



## sethro02

thank you timmy z7 i appreciate the support guys...i guess we will see how the black schwaker holds up in this durability test then...curious


----------



## TimmyZ7

To me it doesn't matter which one they did the barrel test on they advertise them all the same. It's more about holding them up to what they advertise and when they fail to do so I move on.


----------



## sethro02

im sure schwaker will be contacting me


----------



## TimmyZ7

I hope so! I feel they owe a response to their customers as to the performance of this head. They sent my buddy a new pack of heads when he contacted them with pictures so the service was good but trusting in this product after an integrity issue stole his confidence away from being able to use them.


----------



## Fortyneck

TimmyZ7 said:


> I agree. I don't think it's because it is mechanical because if you shot it without the blades the ferrule had the potential to bend the same way. Have you seen the test on AT where an aluminum muzzy and a steel slick trick were shot into a cinder block?? The muzzy peeled like a banana while the slick trick remained intact. It is more a consistency of long aluminum ferrules and material inferiority then it is in regard to its function; be it mechanical or fixed.


I agree, but I would also say that more large cut mechs have the long, slotted, aluminum ferrule design to house and deploy the large blades while keeping weight down. 

So design, and materials IMO.


----------



## traykool

great test seth. looking forward to seeing how the f15 holds up to your test. your time money and effort are appreciated.


----------



## TimmyZ7

Has anyone sent you the Grim Reaper WTS Razor Cut SS or Razor Tip (Non Mathews Edition)? How about a Rocket Hammerhead or Vortex Pro Extreme 2.5"?? I will include them if you like just send back what you don't need and keep what you use.


----------



## gdouty

sethro02 said:


> im sure schwaker will be contacting me


I would think so...They have a pretty large following. I know I was seriously considering them, but that bent up ferrule is not so promising. As of now 10 mechanicals have out performed them in this test, even if you take out the Raging Ulmer which is not an "off the shelf" broadhead, 9 have still dont better than the 2 inch swhacker....I would be really interested in any response from the swhacker staff.


----------



## GarrickTX

Is it just me or is this just too much fun?! Watching the numbers pile up, seeing the pics, and having productive conversations over broadheads. Maybe I'm a dork lol idk. Seth thanks for all you're doing


----------



## UTGrad

TimmyZ7 said:


> Has anyone sent you the Grim Reaper WTS Razor Cut SS or Razor Tip (Non Mathews Edition)? How about a Rocket Hammerhead or Vortex Pro Extreme 2.5"?? I will include them if you like just send back what you don't need and keep what you use.


I would like to see a retest of the Grim Reaper Whitetail Special.


----------



## MOC

UTGrad said:


> I would like to see a retest of the Grim Reaper Whitetail Special.


Yeah, we know you do. LMAO.


----------



## sethro02

grimreaper sent me the razortip and the razor cut heads...they said they had a heat treating problem with the collars...they sent one of each...i will reshoot these two BUT THEY WILL NOT COUNT in scoring..it's for them wanting to know if they actually did have a weak collar.


----------



## TimmyZ7

*Take your Pick!!*


----------



## sethro02

thanks guys...still need to get more arrows...gonna start making more gel later as well.


----------



## sethro02

all i want is that 1.75" schwaker, i need to start winding this test down soon


----------



## qmb9015

sethro02 said:


> i need to start winding this test down soon


i was wondering when you were gonna say that


----------



## TimmyZ7

Okay, I am on my way to the post office.


----------



## UTGrad

TimmyZ7 said:


> View attachment 1419778


Are those 2" cut Reapers in the pics?

I put a couple 2" Razorcuts in my quiver. With 80 lbs KE can't wait to see the exit holes!


----------



## gdouty

TimmyZ7 said:


> View attachment 1419778


Obviously the 1.75 swhacker, but I would love to see the Vortex tested. I have see that broadhead leave some ridiculously large holes in deer.


----------



## sethro02

i feel this test went pretty well but if I want to further do something more advanced i'll have to start saving and preparing for it...ALOT of time will be going into next project! But we will get ALOT more info from it


----------



## TimmyZ7

UTGrad said:


> Are those 2" cut Reapers in the pics?
> 
> I put a couple 2" Razorcuts in my quiver. With 80 lbs KE can't wait to see the exit holes!


Yessir!!


----------



## TimmyZ7

sethro02 said:


> i feel this test went pretty well but if I want to further do something more advanced i'll have to start saving and preparing for it...ALOT of time will be going into next project! But we will get ALOT more info from it


Thanks for your contributions and to those that supported you. Good luck to you with further testing.


----------



## sethro02

mail call: epek broahead, carbon express nativ


----------



## IowaAssassin

Sethro, the link in your sig isn't working for me. Anyone else having this issue? It says the page does not exist?


----------



## sethro02

Gimme a sec ill fix


----------



## mt hunter22

great testing and some great information that we otherwise would have had to speculate, guess, or spend money i dont have to find out for myself.. i personally have never liked mechanicals that flip back to open,but that is my opinion. i have tried meatseeker and thought they did very well,just kind of annoying the little noise you get when you bump them, not in the quiver but when they are on the bow.and i would really like to get away from an o-ring all together. so tried the t3s and they were my go to head till they didnt perform as expected in a elk,,so now back to the drawing board and your research is sure making that decision much more informed a couple i was thinking of trying didnt do very well and some others did excellent.. thanks for saving me time and money.


----------



## goathollow

sethro02 said:


> all i want is that 1.75" schwaker, i need to start winding this test down soon


I think you have probably fulfilled your committment You have done a fantastic job and you have gone way above and beyond, not only in the number of broadheads tested but your efforts to remain consistent, fair and unbiased. I also commend you for the way you have kept your composure; it gave credibility to your work. I will be looking forward to your next endeavor!


----------



## sethro02

Ur welcome good luck with your pick


----------



## gdouty

mt hunter22 said:


> great testing and some great information that we otherwise would have had to speculate, guess, or spend money i dont have to find out for myself.. i personally have never liked mechanicals that flip back to open,but that is my opinion. i have tried meatseeker and thought they did very well,just kind of annoying the little noise you get when you bump them, not in the quiver but when they are on the bow.and i would really like to get away from an o-ring all together. so tried the t3s and they were my go to head till they didnt perform as expected in a elk,,so now back to the drawing board and your research is sure making that decision much more informed a couple i was thinking of trying didnt do very well and some others did excellent.. thanks for saving me time and money.


Put a little bit of bow string wax on the blades to keep them from rattling when you draw, that's how I shot the Vortex for years, works great and does not affect the flight or performance as far as I can tell.


----------



## sethro02

Thanks goathollow for the support...still trying to figure out youtube channel name !!!!


----------



## sethro02

ok the link in sig should work now


----------



## goathollow

sethro02 said:


> Thanks goathollow for the support...still trying to figure out youtube channel name !!!!


I'll give that some thought! You going to stick with broadheads or test other archery equipment as well?


----------



## IowaAssassin

Working, thank you.


----------



## TimmyZ7

Sethro, Thursday the 1.75" black Swhacker with 2 shrink bands will be at your door.


----------



## 0nepin

sethro02 said:


> all i want is that 1.75" schwaker, i need to start winding this test down soon


For your first go at it you sure put on one hell of test,far beyond anything I have seen befor.thanks and I can't wait to see what you come up with after some time to reflect on the good and bad.I did not agree with some of way thing were scored and that's fine ,I think you were as fair as possible .Thanks again bro.


----------



## sethro02

Thanks guys..it will be several aspects..self filmed hunts gear reviews and tests


----------



## corey006

UTGrad said:


> I would like to see a retest of the Grim Reaper Whitetail Special.


O>M>G.....let it go.....already...


----------



## Wildhunter19

Seth thanks for this wonderful thread. I have followed it form the begining. It has been great information and hope that you get to spend some time with your family soon before your next project. Thanks again and may god bless you and yours.


----------



## sethro02

thanks guys...we still have some good heads to go before it is over......and some special testing including the ulmer edge prototype...it should be here this week, also the exodus swept is getting alot of attention so i still need to shoot those


----------



## Rothhar1

Seth honest intrest here i was wondering if say the the TT ulmer or fathead will deploy or fly well out of an xbow ??? If you have access to one I would like to see the result of shooting those two heads from as a stryker 380 !! Something with real thump!!Just wondering


----------



## aight its jake

were the original 1 3/8" reapers completely open on entrance of gel? 
i know they werent on the entrance wood but what about the gel?


----------



## sethro02

Grims were not completely open until the first inch or 2 of the gel...
To xbow question...that ulmer edge would work just fine imo...i have shot the phatheads at over 300 fps in a good tuned bow and it did perfect...i think with the diameter of phathead you would be ok as well...definately worth a try imo


----------



## Rothhar1

sethro02 said:


> Grims were not completely open until the first inch or 2 of the gel...
> To xbow question...that ulmer edge would work just fine imo...i have shot the phatheads at over 300 fps in a good tuned bow and it did perfect...i think with the diameter of phathead you would be ok as well...definately worth a try imo


I know that the 380 I have is shooting 378 FPS now and it blows open my rage and occaionally a blade of standard NAP spit 125 3 blade .


----------



## Rothhar1

Shouldernuke! said:


> I know that the 380 I have is shooting 378 FPS now and it blows open my rage and occaionally a blade of standard NAP spit 125 3 blade .


But they did not open with my 330 FPs Monster !!


----------



## aight its jake

hmm. it makes me wonder what went differently about the reapers in the test and real life. 
i appreciate all your hard work and everything and in no way trying to be a grim reaper phsyco, no names needed haha, but how many inches do you believe are between hair and ribs compared to the wood to gel? idk how to word this correctly.


----------



## sethro02

The way the ulmer is made I dont think 400 fps will blow it open


----------



## Rothhar1

aight its jake said:


> hmm. it makes me wonder what went differently about the reapers in the test and real life.
> i appreciate all your hard work and everything and in no way trying to be a grim reaper phsyco, no names needed haha, but how many inches do you believe are between hair and ribs compared to the wood to gel? idk how to word this correctly.


I would guess that the differeance is much akin to shooting a plus 200# feild dresssed buck compaired to say a sub 160 # FD dressed deer or especially a aveage doe . I would recon his test is much closet to the shooting of a mature buck as opposed to say a 120 # doe. Just saying as all heads are not equil neither are all deer/ game shoulders !


----------



## aight its jake

Shouldernuke! said:


> I would guess that the differeance is much akin to shooting a plus 200# feild dresssed buck compaired to say a sub 160 # FD dressed deer or especially a aveage doe . I would recon his test is much closet to the shooting of a mature buck as opposed to say a 120 # doe. Just saying as all heads are not equil neither are all deer/ game shoulders !


understandable, its crazy how many factors can make a broadhead react differently , i dont believe fixed broadheads are any more reliable, i think each broadhead has its strongs and weakness which makes it fun to see the results of all of them,


----------



## 0nepin

Shouldernuke! said:


> I know that the 380 I have is shooting 378 FPS now and it blows open my rage and occaionally a blade of standard NAP spit 125 3 blade .


The rage extreme or any rage with the shock caller should work fine.I have a tach 15 and I can test them tommarrow them if you want me to.


----------



## sethro02

Their is more space from the wood to gel then hair to ribs on a whitetail..without having a deer sitting by me to check I would say from hair to ribs would be about an inch or two...give or take big deer little deer. Fat or skinny...


----------



## sethro02

I can tell you what I think happens with over the top expandables but I dont wanna open up a can


----------



## Rothhar1

0nepin said:


> The rage extreme or any rage with the shock caller should work fine.I have a tach 15 and I can test them tommarrow them if you want me to.


OK thanks


----------



## Rothhar1

sethro02 said:


> I can tell you what I think happens with over the top expandables but I dont wanna open up a can


Agreed I hav seen what you eluding to in person and its not good have pics somewhere to prove it I think but we will let that can of worms stay closed.


----------



## sethro02

I wasnt meaning it in a bad way cause they work for alot of people but in my observations having those blades running perpindicular with the ferrule if it strikes something hard dead on its like the force of the object is pushing against the blades straight back not allowing them to fold back..imo...just a thought also kinda hard to explain


----------



## Rothhar1

sethro02 said:


> I wasnt meaning it in a bad way cause they work for alot of people but in my observations having those blades running perpindicular with the ferrule if it strikes something hard dead on its like the force of the object is pushing against the blades straight back not allowing them to fold back..imo...just a thought also kinda hard to explain


No its not hard you did just fine and I have seen them and the pics showed they were not expanded till after they were past the ribs so blood trails were half hazard at best on some .I have seen and its as you say in the deer and what works for some and don't for others .I also know that they use too much energy for light weight bow and arrow combos to get good penetration on big bodied animals and will usually not pass through the far side in those instances.

For the most part your tests are confirming what I have said here. The phat head and TT ulmer however are contridictions to this I think its the points they have as alot of the reason why .


----------



## aight its jake

sethro02 said:


> I wasnt meaning it in a bad way cause they work for alot of people but in my observations having those blades running perpindicular with the ferrule if it strikes something hard dead on its like the force of the object is pushing against the blades straight back not allowing them to fold back..imo...just a thought also kinda hard to explain


you believe this is the case with reapers too even though they have the spring and blades seem to flex down before they begin to open? i wish we could see how it opens in like ultra slow motion to know for a fact what happens


----------



## Rothhar1

aight its jake said:


> you believe this is the case with reapers too even though they have the spring and blades seem to flex down before they begin to open? i wish we could see how it opens in like ultra slow motion to know for a fact what happens


ME too I have seen the result at times and it makes a guy wanna say hmmmmm!! I wonder what would happen if this is just a thought !!!!! Take a no bone entrance hit !! And just use the canvas and gel with the over the tops ?? I would guess that would show this result!!

Seth will you hummer me ?? And shoot say a Spitfire 2-3 blade through just the skin and gel and a couple other but not count them on your results thread I bet we get the result we are talking about here!! Of no or very little deployment until in the gel! also have the gel within about 1/8th inch of the cloth to mimick the body fluid/soft jelly fat under the skin in many areas of a deer .


----------



## aight its jake

Shouldernuke! said:


> ME too I have seen the result st times and it makes a guy wanna say hmmmmm!! I wonder what would happen if this is just a thought !!!!! Take a no bone entrance hit !! And just use the canvas and gel with the over the tops ?? I would guess that would show this result!!
> 
> Seth will you hummer me ?? And shoot say a Spitfire 2-3 blade through just the skin and gel and a couple other but not count them on your results thread I bet we get the result we are talking about here!! Of no or very little deployment until in the gel! also have the gel within about 1/8th inch of the cloth to mimick the body fluid/soft jelly fat under the skin in many areas of a deer .


thats a great idea!
heres another thought i have about reapers. if you notice, the 1 3/8 blades are alot closer to the ferule than the 1 3/4 blades are. due to the small space between the blades and ferule of the 1 3/4, does that make the entrance hole bigger?


----------



## UTGrad

Last time I checked shooting a deer and plywood are very different.


----------



## Rothhar1

UTGrad said:


> Last time I checked shooting a deer and plywood are very different.


Easy the test is consistent and proves very well what difference there is head to head on the same mediums.. Your not the only one here with degree...Myjob is all about testing things over and over with a degree of consistency.And yes there is a difference but not alot the wa he has it set up . !


----------



## bowhuntermn

UTGrad said:


> Last time I checked shooting a deer and plywood are very different.


Dude, give it up and just go away. Seriously, your constant whining about your beloved Grim Reapers is tiresome. Matter of fact, I think the folks at Grim Reaper wishes you would stop too. Maybe you can come up with your own test and post it to see what others have to say about yours??? How about it?


----------



## sethro02

im gonna try to explain what i just did in the garage with a new reaper...
i held the broadhead with my fingers so that it is perfectly horizontal..
i took a ruler and started pressing hard on the blade straight back.
it did not open.. so in my mind if an over the top like a grime reaper just for example!!! hits a hard object perfectly straight on then its gonna blast through it without opening until AFTER it exits the first media because their is something finally "grabbing" the blade to fold it back, i may have to video tape me doing this...


----------



## aight its jake

UTGrad said:


> Last time I checked shooting a deer and plywood are very different.


how come you cant look at the positives of the grim reapers in this test?
i love grim reapers just as much as you. i believe they are all around the best broadhead (just like you it seems) but in this particular test it is not the winner. penetration wise , it scored a 9 out of 10 i believe. and the only mech head with a 5 out of 5 for durabilitity. this test just proves that they will blow through bone, cut what evers after and kill efficently so its not a big deal.


----------



## aight its jake

sethro02 said:


> im gonna try to explain what i just did in the garage with a new reaper...
> i held the broadhead with my fingers so that it is perfectly horizontal..
> i took a ruler and started pressing hard on the blade straight back.
> it did not open.. so in my mind if an over the top like a grime reaper just for example!!! hits a hard object perfectly straight on then its gonna blast through it without opening until AFTER it exits the first media because their is something finally "grabbing" the blade to fold it back, i may have to video tape me doing this...


thats a good theory. do you believe that the trocar tip with the razors cutting through the hard object first would allow the blades to open up though? just a thought. because there is already a small slice for the closed blade to follow , wouldnt it grab on to that? this is where that slow motion camera would come in handy to see exactly whats going on.


----------



## Rothhar1

sethro02 said:


> im gonna try to explain what i just did in the garage with a new reaper...
> i held the broadhead with my fingers so that it is perfectly horizontal..
> i took a ruler and started pressing hard on the blade straight back.
> it did not open.. so in my mind if an over the top like a grime reaper just for example!!! hits a hard object perfectly straight on then its gonna blast through it without opening until AFTER it exits the first media because their is something finally "grabbing" the blade to fold it back, i may have to video tape me doing this...


I have the same theory and also the i believe they will not open fully on the soft tissue skin only impact till past the skin!!


----------



## Rothhar1

aight its jake said:


> thats a good theory. do you believe that the trocar tip with the razors cutting through the hard object first would allow the blades to open up though? just a thought. because there is already a small slice for the closed blade to follow , wouldnt it grab on to that? this is where that slow motion camera would come in handy to see exactly whats going on.


Likely !


----------



## TimmyZ7

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FTTGcB5OFy8&feature=plcp

Go to 6:30 to see the WTS Entry on Brdymakr's Ballistic gel test...what are your thoughts??


----------



## sethro02

timmy z i think that hitting the gel first being as flexible as it is "catched" the blade ends to allow it to open


----------



## aight its jake

TimmyZ7 said:


> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FTTGcB5OFy8&feature=plcp
> 
> Go to 6:30 to see the WTS Entry on Brdymakr's Ballistic gel test...what are your thoughts??


it has to be the fact that there was nothing hard before the broadhead right?

i think the whole thing results in the pucker factor to be honest. the skin gets pushed in because its like elastic which lets the blades open the slightest bit and when it goes back to its normal form the hole is a decent size. it cant do that to a piece of plywood because its not flexible? thats the only reason i can see why this is the case. im suprised nobody from grim reaper has explained this yet.


----------



## tiger77

For questions on the reaper y'all should see the review by Ike's outdoors

He takes some raw hide and folds it over and shoots it. By the second or third piece, the head is completely open. I think that's how it went, I ke does a great review and it will answer a lot of questions here, just go see it


----------



## sethro02

in alot of these tests ive done, SOME heads have "cut" through the plywood and SOME have "busted" through the plywood...if the trocar tip on the reaper or whichever expandable sliced through and didn't bust through then no i dont think it would help the head expand...if it busted through just completely blowing things apart then their is alot of "debris" (debris as in splintered wood etc.) for the blades to get caught on, on the way through


----------



## sethro02

like i said before, when i talked to grimreaper they were more concerned about the whitetail special breaking...they didn't look too much into why the grim was not deployed....on with the next head to talk about!!


----------



## Kb83

UTGrad said:


> Last time I checked shooting a deer and plywood are very different.


Quit being such a cry baby about this. I didn't realize someone could get so butt hurt over a broadhead. If you have confidence in your equipment this shouldn't bother you in the least. You act like Seth is personally attacking you because your broadhead didn't score well. Change your pad and move on with it Nancy 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk.


----------



## TimmyZ7

Sounds like a good theory. So what are your predictions for the next Swhacker?


----------



## sethro02

My predictions? am i allowed to give predictions or will people think im rigging it!


----------



## UTGrad

Over the top expandables are not fully deployed at entry like rear deploying blades. They continue to deploy inside the animal and exit fully deployed. That's why rear deploying expandables have larger entrance holes.


----------



## Michael Myers

sethro02 said:


> My predictions? am i allowed to give predictions or will people think im rigging it!


I Think the Majority are Capable of Understanding that your not rigging these Tests...Give your Predictions...Grizz


----------



## UTGrad

Kb83 said:


> Quit being such a cry baby about this. I didn't realize someone could get so butt hurt over a broadhead. If you have confidence in your equipment this shouldn't bother you in the least. You act like Seth is personally attacking you because your broadhead didn't score well. Change your pad and move on with it Nancy
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk.


What?? All I said is shooting a deer and plywood are two different things.


----------



## sethro02

utgrad some people look at companys websites and back of packaging to find their information on how their heads work...it never said it's not suppose to open at impact...im just passing that along to everybody


----------



## Michael Myers

UTGrad said:


> What?? All I said is shooting a deer and plywood are two different things.


And every single Bowhunter in the World understands that Deer and Plywood are two different things,But again,Thanks for the Info.Grizz


----------



## sethro02

utgrad you are the reason people stop looking at this thread... i see that you want to come to this thread to get your point across because nobody has responded well to your anti seth thread...hang with it though your thread may get to 120000 views


----------



## sethro02

i think the shwaker 1.75" will get 1" better penetration than the 2"


----------



## UTGrad

GrizzlyMan1980 said:


> And every single Bowhunter in the World understands that Deer and Plywood are two different things,But again,Thanks for the Info.Grizz


Anytime Grizz


----------



## Buckbadger

sethro02 said:


> i think the shwaker 1.75" will get 1" better penetration than the 2"


But probably will still bend blades and ferrule and possibly break too.


----------



## sethro02

yea i agree with...i basically meant everything identical but 1" more penetration


----------



## Fortyneck

sethro02 said:


> utgrad you are the reason people stop looking at this thread... i see that you want to come to this thread to get your point across because nobody has responded well to your anti seth thread...hang with it though your thread may get to 120000 views


Looks like your thread yielded 2 AT celebrities.


----------



## Buckbadger

sethro02 said:


> yea i agree with...i basically meant everything identical but 1" more penetration


Gotcha, excellent prediction.


----------



## Bones816

Been following since day 1. As always, great job Seth. Tonight I picked up some Ulmer Edge broadheads at Scheel's. I just HAD to! I opened the package to see if they felt sharp and no, they do not. So, I guess I'll contact Trophy Taker and see what to do. I know Rusty was on here a few days ago and said to send them back to them and they would take care of it. I wish there was a serial number or something on them so we could avoid the "not so sharp" ones. Has anybody else picked any up and felt they were not very sharp?


----------



## nolimitarchery

Seth,

I want to thank you for your test and the unbiased exposer you have given my product. I sent you my product not knowing what the outcome would be because there are so many variables. I had a good idea because we have preformed so many test, but you never know. I look forward to your next test as I know it will be done in the same unbiased manner.

I also want to thank everyone for their interest in the Grave Digger.

Thank you 
Dale


----------



## sethro02

Yea I bought 3 packs before I found a good one...i hope they are all almost off the shelf except for the sharp ones


----------



## sethro02

No problem dale..products speak for themselves. And yours is a killer..cant wait for chisel tip


----------



## nolimitarchery

I will make sure you have one for the next test.


----------



## Buckbadger

If you decide to test the Atom, better wear full head to toe combat gear, because those blades are going to become flying shrapnel.


----------



## qmb9015

Buckbadger said:


> If you decide to test the Atom, better wear full head to toe combat gear, because those blades are going to become flying shrapnel.


x2 yea i have seen some wicked videos of them and they always shattered


----------



## Bowhuntr64

Bones816 said:


> Been following since day 1. As always, great job Seth. Tonight I picked up some Ulmer Edge broadheads at Scheel's. I just HAD to! I opened the package to see if they felt sharp and no, they do not. So, I guess I'll contact Trophy Taker and see what to do. I know Rusty was on here a few days ago and said to send them back to them and they would take care of it. I wish there was a serial number or something on them so we could avoid the "not so sharp" ones. Has anybody else picked any up and felt they were not very sharp?


Make sure you are not just feeling a sharpened, but single beveled blade. They don't feel the same as a double bevel. If you examine it really well and it is really dull, they will replace it and also give you a hat for your troubles. The exchanged ones I got are nice and sharp...but still feel different than a double beveled blade.


----------



## BigGarr

sethro02 said:


> utgrad you are the reason people stop looking at this thread... i see that you want to come to this thread to get your point across because nobody has responded well to your anti seth thread...hang with it though your thread may get to 120000 views


 yeah thats why i dont really read any more just skim do you know when the f15 will be there?


----------



## sixgunluv

sethro02 said:


> yea i agree with...i basically meant everything identical but 1" more penetration


Seth i don't see broadhead weight in the spreadsheet...am I missing something? Or did you mention anything about weight in the *STACK* of pages your thread has received.  The Muzzy Mx-3 you tested only have a Steel Ferrule in the 125gr. What weight did you test? and do you think it would have made any difference in the test?


----------



## Super 91

All heads tested were supposed to be 100 grain heads I believe.


----------



## qmb9015

BigGarr said:


> yeah thats why i dont really read any more just skim do you know when the f15 will be there?


i do the same thing i just watch for certain peoples post and i think a few pages back he said he got the F15's today


----------



## sixgunluv

Super 91 said:


> All heads tested were supposed to be 100 grain heads I believe.


Roger that...lots of specifics of the heads that i suppose could be filled in later in the spreadsheet.


----------



## 442fps

Any words about ST Razortrick ?


----------



## buckjunkieone

What is the raging ulmer head and where can I see it?


----------



## sethro02

All heads are 100 grain...i have f15...raging ulmer is a head I made..its the ulmer edge but with rage 2blade


----------



## sethro02

Need ti get to pro shop to chk on razortricks...


----------



## sethro02

If I find an atom I may shoot it...i got an epek sent to me and geez it has alot of moving parts!


----------



## rodney482

Not surprised the VPA did so well, here is
one that has passed through 5 deer and a
bear.


----------



## sethro02

Nice! They are solid!


----------



## goathollow

sethro02 said:


> Nice! They are solid!


Indeed they are!!! They would be in my quiver this year but I suck at putting a good edge back on a one piece broadhead. I don't blame the heads (I've tried several types) I blame me. I can't sharpen a knife worth a hoot either.

Seth: I also noticed you don't have cutting surface measurements in your spreadsheet for Phatheads and Montecs. Do you need/want them? If so, I will measure them this evening and send you the measurements.


----------



## 0nepin

when ever you are ready for a franken head test let me know.this might be my new favorit.RAGEDIGGER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


----------



## nybowhuntermike

lol that would be viscious


----------



## qmb9015

if the rage blades didnt bend so easy i would say that would be the head to have but every broadhead shot with those blades has come back with bent blades


----------



## 0nepin

qmb9015 said:


> if the rage blades didnt bend so easy i would say that would be the head to have but every broadhead shot with those blades has come back with bent blades


I agree but they kill so well.it's going to be a one and done for deploring blades but the tracking jobs will be very very short.


----------



## sethro02

Goathollow I need cut surface for montecs...i still have phatheads so ill go measure them..

Onepin if we do frankenhead test only I will set my bow 60lbs to get up to 80+ ke


----------



## qmb9015

0nepin said:


> I agree but they kill so well.it's going to be a one and done for deploring blades but the tracking jobs will be very very short.


that is true it all just depends on if the person wants a drop on contact head but also a 1 and done head or a reusable head but have to track a lil bit farther


----------



## rodney482

I use a flat Smiths diamond stone to resharpen
the VPA. They are very easy to sharpen.

I too suck at sharpening knives.. 




goathollow said:


> Indeed they are!!! They would be in my quiver this year but I suck at putting a good edge back on a one piece broadhead. I don't blame the heads (I've tried several types) I blame me. I can't sharpen a knife worth a hoot either.
> 
> Seth: I also noticed you don't have cutting surface measurements in your spreadsheet for Phatheads and Montecs. Do you need/want them? If so, I will measure them this evening and send you the measurements.


----------



## Kb83

That might be another cool test. Test multiple sharpeners and find the easiest way to get the sharpest cutting surface on a broadhead. I always have used a pen style sharpener I picked up at the deer and turkey show. Gets knifes razor sharp and is very simple. Works very well on broadheads aswell. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk.


----------



## 0nepin

qmb9015 said:


> that is true it all just depends on if the person wants a drop on contact head but also a 1 and done head or a reusable head but have to track a lil bit farther


The ferrule will be fine you will just have to replace the rear blades.I have made some low ke version that I also think is going to be very reuseable.I cut the extreme blade right were they thin out and they seem very strong.


----------



## sethro02

Its pretty awesome jason..gonna try to test today!


----------



## qmb9015

0nepin said:


> The ferrule will be fine you will just have to replace the rear blades.I have made some low ke version that I also think is going to be very reuseable.I cut the extreme blade right were they thin out and they seem very strong.


that sounds pretty good also you gonna send oneof those to seth also


----------



## 0nepin

qmb9015 said:


> that sounds pretty good also you gonna send oneof those to seth also


Yea when he's ready to do franken head test I will send few different one ,low ke version and max carnage version .


----------



## Porkrind

onepin: those are very impressive even though I have given you a little crap for your Franken heads I will give you props on your ability to build things that I cannot.


----------



## qmb9015

0nepin said:


> Yea when he's ready to do franken head test I will send few different one ,low ke version and max carnage version .


sounds good to me


----------



## sethro02

Frankenhead test will be in the making..but if you think ur second guessing your setup now wait til the next test! You will be scratching your head about broadheads and arrows!


----------



## Rothhar1

Seth did you try to shoot a spitfire or over the top int just the cloth and jell with about a 1/8th inch space in em last nite or today ?We got off track last nite //...Was hopeing you had a bit of old gel and enought cloth and time to do so! IMHO I beleive that would be a very important deployment6 test for all mecs. the boneless opening would on the cloth/canvas


----------



## sethro02

No I didnt have time..if I test today I may try it


----------



## sethro02

Actually I sold the spits and grims after testing.. So I may reuse the whitetail special after retest if it is in good shape


----------



## Rothhar1

sethro02 said:


> Actually I sold the spits and grims after testing.. So I may reuse the whitetail special after retest if it is in good shape


k thaNKS a bunch


----------



## GarrickTX

Seth what bow are you using? I know you said it when this first started but after all of the info that has intruded my noggin, I have forgotten. The reason I ask is because I am in the market for a new bow, my Big @ss Oneida just doesn't cut it for me anymore.


----------



## sethro02

2010pse axe 6..has 2011 upgraded cams..60# set at 52 lbs for test...440 grain atrow at 270 fps


----------



## buckhunter1

Interesting..


----------



## 0nepin

sethro02 said:


> Its pretty awesome jason..gonna try to test today!


What heads are up next for testing?


----------



## 0nepin

sethro02 said:


> 2010pse axe 6..has 2011 upgraded cams..60# set at 52 lbs for test...440 grain atrow at 270 fps


breathn is building me a franken bow right now . 2010 omen rizer 2011 evo cams DW should be 84-94lb, should be a smooth beast!!!.


----------



## sethro02

Heck yea it will be!

I may shoot 
Wasp bullt
Cx f15
a couple other cx heads
Exodus swept!

Or
I have 2 sonoran heads but may wait til I get other scwaker


----------



## sethro02

Ok guys ive officially shipped back the heads I was suppise to and also shipped out heads that were purchased so after this week if you didnt get your head back let me know


----------



## rodney482

sethro02 said:


> Frankenhead test will be in the making..but if you think ur second guessing your setup now wait til the next test! You will be scratching your head about broadheads and arrows!


Flight?


----------



## sethro02

rodney482...what?


----------



## sethro02

Round 8 Fixed today!
1. exodus swept
2. carbon express f15
3.wasp bullet


----------



## Gypsy Rover

whooo hoo!


----------



## qmb9015

sit back and place your bets lol im goin for the f15


----------



## TimmyZ7

Looking forward to the exodus outperforming the others!


----------



## 0nepin

in this test i think the bullet will win.might tie for the lead if sb and sa scores are perfect


----------



## Gypsy Rover

humm..I think the Wasp will penetrate best...but that is just me...and for what is worth I dont use that head either...


----------



## Michael Myers

Wasp will rule out of those 3 heads...Grizz


----------



## corey006

I sent in the Wasp Bullet so my money is on that one for penetration, but I suspect there maybe some blade damage.


----------



## sethro02

exodus swept test results:
3.45" total cut surface, or 1.25" cut diamter

penetration- 8
durability- 5
dependability- 5
sharp before- 5
sharp after- 4
flight- 5
total score- 32 out of 35 ( total penetration, 8")


----------



## sethro02

exodus swept gel


----------



## sethro02

carbon express f15 test results:
4.3" total cut surface, or 1"x 1/2" cut diameter

penetration- 8
durability- 5
dependability- 5
sharp before- 4
sharp after- 3
flight- 5
total score- 30 out of 35 ( total penetration, 8")


----------



## Kb83

I'm going with the f15. With the wasp a close second. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk.


----------



## sethro02

f15


----------



## Kb83

Oops guess I should of waited a bit longer to post that one! Lol


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk.


----------



## sethro02

f15 gel


----------



## sethro02

wasp bullet test results:
1.75" total cut surface, or 1" cut diamter

penetration- 10
durability- 5
dependability- 5
sharp before- 4
sharp after- 3
flight- 5
total score- 32 out of 35 (total penetration, 11.5")


----------



## qmb9015

so i guess the bleeder blades on the f15 didnt really do anything


----------



## sethro02

bullet


----------



## sethro02

no they did not,if you look closesly you can see it scratched the gel


----------



## sethro02

bullet gel


----------



## qmb9015

sethro02 said:


> no they did not,if you look closesly you can see it scratched the gel


lol ok


----------



## sethro02

guys i have to go outside and play hockey with son...i'll be back on in a little while to post or answer questions


----------



## goathollow

The trend continues....


----------



## Kb83

I say if anyone has one of those giant turkey heads let's try one just for ****s and giggles. Who knows maybe were all missing out on something!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk.


----------



## sethro02

goathollow the trend you are speaking of is it short ferrules with chisel tips or fixed blade in general


----------



## born2shoot3

when are the next round of mechs


----------



## Michael Myers

sethro02 said:


> guys i have to go outside and play hockey with son...i'll be back on in a little while to post or answer questions


Hockey,Eh....Thats what i like to hear..Grizz


----------



## 0nepin

sethro02 said:


> goathollow the trend you are speaking of is it short ferrules with chisel tips or fixed blade in general


I think he is speaking of very small entry hole.jk


----------



## sethro02

oh...ok

next round mechanicals should be tomorrow...also some more fixed heads too.


----------



## sethro02

Slick trick standards for sale..comes with extra set of blades so this is basically new package
$25tyd

Bloodrunner 2 blade..$25tyd


----------



## Bowhuntr64

I find it interesting that the Exodus Swept would penetrate less than the Exodus Full. Can you think of any reason for that? Same ferrule, same tip, same cutting surface, same blade thickness...Have you shot the same head into a few different batches of gel to test the consistency?


----------



## sethro02

The most inconsistant part of this test is the wood. Other tban that I cant really explain why


----------



## sethro02

Plus with it only being an inch differance I would blame insistant in plywood


----------



## Fortyneck

sethro02 said:


> The most inconsistant part of this test is the wood. Other tban that I cant really explain why


Agreed, and the shooter, not dis'n, just shot to shot torque/form variation could possibly subtly affect angle of impact.


----------



## 0nepin

Bowhuntr64 said:


> I find it interesting that the Exodus Swept would penetrate less than the Exodus Full. Can you think of any reason for that? Same ferrule, same tip, same cutting surface, same blade thickness...Have you shot the same head into a few different batches of gel to test the consistency?


I believe with the more swept back blades the blades are in the wood longer creating slightly more friction , and I think this would also happen through bone,but not through meat.


----------



## goathollow

sethro02 said:


> goathollow the trend you are speaking of is it short ferrules with chisel tips or fixed blade in general


I was speaking to small diameter fixed blade heads like the Wasp, Muzzy, Phathead, Shuttle T, VPA etc. And I'm looking primarily at penetration. Of course there is more going on with your test than just penetration and there are some exceptions. I frankly haven't looked at your spreadsheet to see if there is some common thread between all the high penetration heads, fixed or mechanical. It may indeed have a lot to do with the ferrule as it is pushing through the first medium.


----------



## goathollow

0nepin said:


> I think he is speaking of very small entry hole.jk


I am referring to small diameter broadheads, but I am not suggesting a "very small entry hole". I for one appreciate the cutting surface score/measurement because I think a 4 blade small diameter broadhead can do just about as much damage as a long 2 blade expandable head. Just my experience from a lot of years of hunting, a lot of pass throughs and a lot dead deer. It is just, without question, my opinion. I have nothing against expandables and maybe I'm an old dog that can't be taught new tricks but I just like what I like. The data does seem to support, with some exceptions, that small diameter heads penetrate better than larger diameter heads.


----------



## sethro02

Good point about swept blades onepin


----------



## brokenlittleman

I thought the baldes were the same length except they are swept back on one? You comment on the incosistency of the wood which is why in some cases where it doesn't make sense logicaly it might warrant more than one shot.


----------



## TimmyZ7

goathollow said:


> I am referring to small diameter broadheads, but I am not suggesting a "very small entry hole". I for one appreciate the cutting surface score/measurement because I think a 4 blade small diameter broadhead can do just about as much damage as a long 2 blade expandable head. Just my experience from a lot of years of hunting, a lot of pass throughs and a lot dead deer. It is just, without question, my opinion. I have nothing against expandables and maybe I'm an old dog that can't be taught new tricks but I just like what I like. *The data does seem to support, with some exceptions, that small diameter heads penetrate better than larger diameter heads.*




That would be due to less friction I would assume. However, friction going through an animal is not such a bad thing considering the more that is being grabbed or torn is essentially more trauma which can lead to shorter and heavier blood trails. Sethro is shooting some big expandables with a bow that draws below 60 pounds when some of us are shooting them at 90k.e.+ Penetration is not an issue when the larger diameter has more spine, more weight, and more energy behind it. It is as if I increased my ignition and air flow into an engine but forget to increase the fuel flow. What I would have is a ton of potential with poor results because I did not maintain the air, spark and fuel ratios together. This is why these mechanicals typically do not do as well penetrating because while the head is added to the equation the rest of the essential components needed to accommodate the the head are still missing. 

If I had a Slick Trick pass through and I had a Rage pass through which would cause more trauma? Obviously the Rage would. The key is having what each head needs to perform at its full potential and that is a responsibility that belongs to the hunter to determine if he is sufficiently providing that. Too many people shoot bigger then they should be, this is my opinion of course and not a fact. However, although some are still successful at lower poundages they must still accept that these heads are not performing as well as they could.


----------



## sethro02

I understand everyone wants me to shoot a bunch of the same heads and get an average...that would take forever..yes it would be nice but for now I can just visually inspect wood for knots or cracks and shoot the best I can and hope for good outcome


----------



## TimmyZ7

sethro02 said:


> I understand everyone wants me to shoot a bunch of the same heads and get an average...that would take forever..yes it would be nice but for now I can just visually inspect wood for knots or cracks and shoot the best I can and hope for good outcome


I can sense your getting burnt out and rightfully so. You have done a ton of work and put up with quite a bit. Ultimately, you are the captain and people can either ride on the boat or stay on land but what you choose to do is your choice and that's enough said. We can all take from this and determine what the results mean to us and it would be better if we came to our conclusions simply by accepting things and moving on. You are not an infomercial tester, nor a broadhead manufacturer so what you are doing is selfless and I can respect that. You should wrap things up and take some time with the family before you get too weary brother. Like many, I appreciate your commitment and am glad to have donated.


----------



## Bowhuntr64

0nepin said:


> I believe with the more swept back blades the blades are in the wood longer creating slightly more friction , and I think this would also happen through bone,but not through meat.


From my understanding the Swept blades are not really swept back more; they have the same blade angle as the Full blades; it is just another term instead of Barbed


----------



## Bowhuntr64

brokenlittleman said:


> I thought the baldes were the same length except they are swept back on one? You comment on the incosistency of the wood which is why in some cases where it doesn't make sense logicaly it might warrant more than one shot.


Yeah...the plywood difference is a good point. For some reason, I was thinking this was fiber board.


----------



## sethro02

Im not getting burnt out its just that I want to so the best for everyone thats why im putting a ton of thought behind the next test..it will have a hooter shooter and everything..taking out as much error as possible..sorry if I came off rude I did not mean to at all


----------



## Rothhar1

0nepin said:


> I believe with the more swept back blades the blades are in the wood longer creating slightly more friction , and I think this would also happen through bone,but not through meat.


Point /blade length is a big factor as you are correct about the friction part also furrel size around is important as is it shape if its round compaired to triangular in shape wil produce more drag as well. A short head will be in contact less time with the board than a long one conversly a 1.5 inch cut head will require more energy than a 1 inch head .A chissle tip will out proform a round or blade type point on hard heavy material as well. We know these things all add up.

I bet if the spread sheet was set in groups like chisle pointed fixed heads and say over the top mecs by point type ext ext .It would become evidant what we are seeing and what head is truely the best penetrator ineach catagory .JMHO catgorizeing them will make it become clearer for the average guy.


----------



## snoman4

Great thread Sethro. Glad to see my Phatheads performing so well.


----------



## 0nepin

Now if somebody can not understand this there is no help for them.


TimmyZ7 said:


> [/B]
> 
> That would be due to less friction I would assume. However, friction going through an animal is not such a bad thing considering the more that is being grabbed or torn is essentially more trauma which can lead to shorter and heavier blood trails. Sethro is shooting some big expandables with a bow that draws below 60 pounds when some of us are shooting them at 90k.e.+ Penetration is not an issue when the larger diameter has more spine, more weight, and more energy behind it. It is as if I increased my ignition and air flow into an engine but forget to increase the fuel flow. What I would have is a ton of potential with poor results because I did not maintain the air, spark and fuel ratios together. This is why these mechanicals typically do not do as well penetrating because while the head is added to the equation the rest of the essential components needed to accommodate the the head are still missing.
> 
> If I had a Slick Trick pass through and I had a Rage pass through which would cause more trauma? Obviously the Rage would. The key is having what each head needs to perform at its full potential and that is a responsibility that belongs to the hunter to determine if he is sufficiently providing that. Too many people shoot bigger then they should be, this is my opinion of course and not a fact. However, although some are still successful at lower poundages they must still accept that these heads are not performing as well as they could.


----------



## Fortyneck

Bowhuntr64 said:


> From my understanding the Swept blades are not really swept back more; they have the same blade angle as the Full blades; it is just another term instead of Barbed


I just see a little less material on the barbed model no other difference same specs otherwise.


----------



## Laplacesdemon

rodney482 said:


> Not surprised the VPA did so well, here is
> one that has passed through 5 deer and a
> bear.


Big deal...Onepin could shoot through 5 deer and a bear _ON THE SAME SHOT_.


----------



## sethro02

I think the big expandable with non passthrough vs small fixed passthrough could be debated forever..on my next test I will have my bow cranked up for the big expandables


----------



## MarkBaHoi

I'll send another round of the CX heads....keep that gator for round 2 

Have you consider hardy backer or something that is tough but brittle and not so fiberous like the wood.

http://www.jameshardie.com/homeowner/backerboard.shtml

I have a piece I can shoot and see the performance? With bone it's going to punch a hole and not have any friction after it's punched whereas the wood the blade go through but after that is shrinks back down?

~Just my .02 and trying to help so keep the :flames: on low please!


----------



## sethro02

Ill look into it..im trying to get next test as close to perfect...may have to wait to get deer shoulder to compare..but if not I will for sure put a ton of research into the media


----------



## sethro02

Thanks guys!


----------



## Porkrind

It's all about density and tensile strength. I think lol.


----------



## elkman406

1st of all, thank you Seth for taking the time to do this. Interesting results and very entertaining. Secondly, I concur, inconsistent wood sucks.


----------



## sethro02

Yea..changes in next series is gonna happen..i still feel though its not that bad of a comparison


----------



## MarkBaHoi

sethro02 said:


> Ill look into it..im trying to get next test as close to perfect...may have to wait to get deer shoulder to compare..but if not I will for sure put a ton of research into the media


I've seen guys use ceramic tiles as well....they just broke like glass though.


----------



## 0nepin

Laplacesdemon said:


> Big deal...Onepin could shoot through 5 deer and a bear _ON THE SAME SHOT_.


Well if I can't I know who could ole wack&stack with the xxxroid.


----------



## 0nepin

sethro02 said:


> Ill look into it..im trying to get next test as close to perfect...may have to wait to get deer shoulder to compare..but if not I will for sure put a ton of research into the media


I will send you some deer shoulder around 9/15/12.Im sure somebody still has some in the freezer that they don't mind donating .


----------



## tapout155

Does anybody have any experience with the Trophy Ridge rocket Hammerheads. I am interested in the 2" cutting diameter. I think i have been reading too many of onepins post.


----------



## rodney482

Laplacesdemon said:


> Big deal...Onepin could shoot through 5 deer and a bear _ON THE SAME SHOT_.


Bwahahaha... :thumb:


----------



## Griz34

0nepin said:


> I will send you some deer shoulder around 9/15/12.Im sure somebody still has some in the freezer that they don't mind donating .


I was thinking about sending him deer shoulders also, but I'm wondering what the rules are pertaining to sending biological material through the mail.


----------



## 0nepin

tapout155 said:


> Does anybody have any experience with the Trophy Ridge rocket Hammerheads. I am interested in the 2" cutting diameter. I think i have been reading too many of onepins post.


Haha I think you have.


----------



## 0nepin

Griz34 said:


> I was thinking about sending him deer shoulders also, but I'm wondering what the rules are pertaining to sending biological material through the mail.


I was wondering the Same thing. I will find out tomarrow when I ship timmyz7 his ragedigger.


----------



## sethro02

Ill have shoulders but not until october..in the mean time ill look at other media...i also want to point out I have no clue what head im using!!!.i do know ill be using my injexions..and my vap outserts have not bent yet!


----------



## white.greg

The reason that typical plywood is inconsistant is that there are voids on the inside layers and the wood itself will have different densities. Something like masonite would be much more consistant.


----------



## 0nepin

sethro02 said:


> Ill have shoulders but not until october..in the mean time ill look at other media...i also want to point out I have no clue what head im using!!!.i do know ill be using my injexions..and my vap outserts have not bent yet!


WHAT ? Man those rageing ulmer are insane!Would you like a ragedigger ? I could ship you some blades tomarrow for the ferrule that you have.


----------



## noklok

tapout155 said:


> Does anybody have any experience with the Trophy Ridge rocket Hammerheads. I am interested in the 2" cutting diameter. I think i have been reading too many of onepins post.


I have shot 15 or more deer with them. They do a lot of damage. Always reliable. Sometimes blades bent but did not break. I like flexible blades on a big head. If you hit bone I don't mind a blade bending out of the way. I always got the head through. sometimes the deer would carry it a couple jumps. Usually the arrow would be laying on the ground at the right where the deer was. Mostly 1.5 year old deer. A couple 2.5 year old bucks. Great on that size deer. The deer I am targeting now I'm not sure I would get through consistently. My set up was 400g arrow at 272 fps.


----------



## sethro02

Raging ulmer is top of list with gravedigger as well...you dont have to send it...my closest gander has rage titaniums for sale fro $50 bucks so I cojld pick those up for a rage digger


----------



## 0nepin

sethro02 said:


> Raging ulmer is top of list with gravedigger as well...you dont have to send it...my closest gander has rage titaniums for sale fro $50 bucks so I cojld pick those up for a rage digger


Don't forget extreme blades. Gander mountain has the on there web sight for $79.00 . And there is no store close by dang it.


----------



## Michael Myers

I Should be receiving my Grave diggers any day,Ordered 2 Packs from Dale and am Hoping they arrive before i go to my Camp this Weekend....Maybe do a Little Huntin with the Grave Diggers this Weekend...Just Rodents like Yotes and Such.Grizz


----------



## flopduster

Seth, 
Based on what you have seen in this test, which head would you put on the end of an arrow for a youth shooting 35 lbs?


----------



## coastiehunter2

Have the slick trick standards been tested ?


----------



## TimmyZ7

Sethro considering you have two mechanical heads at the top of your list and admittedly shot a fixed head previously I think it's safe to say we may be reading the results in a similar manner. I believe that Sethro's results are quite the opposite of what most people have concluded. From what has been demonstrated at only 69k.e. he was able to successfully exit the gel with 2"+ mechanicals. Having utilized lower k.e. with some of those heads and still being able to penetrate wood and gel with them the way he has is deserving of a hats off to some of these mechanical heads and their manufactures. On a broadside shot with 80k.e.+ and less resistance then the test one could conclude even further how much more impressive the results will become; with the additional confidence through the unintended shoulder/gut shots as well.


----------



## sethro02

for youth 35lb bow i would suggest just about any of the short ferrule type fixed heads...some people will tell you cut on contact for sure but after these tests you could have a shuttle t, terminal tlock,,also the steelfroce phathead is a great head. im assuming him or her shoots 75 or 85 grain? if so you will be limited to some of these heads on the test..if him or her shoots 100 grains then the ones i just mentioned will be fine. personally i would look at which heads had good total penetration..that would tell me if i put it on the end of an arrow my son is shooting, it should do well. use coc or chisel tip...just keep the head on the smaller side length, and diameter.


----------



## sethro02

st standards have been shot. they are also for sale.


----------



## sethro02

yeah ive shot fixed and mechanical..never really set on either or...it usually depended on which bow i had at the time! lol. but after seeing this, alot of these mechanicals in my opinion can be utilized by lower ke setups, but that also depends on your style of hunting. are you shooting 20-30 yards...or 50-60 yards? I prepare for the worst...i practice all the time at 50 and 60 yards...only because i have a fear of getting out of the tree in the middle of the day, start walking to truck to only have a deer pop out of the woods ahead of me! this has happened to me 4 times within the last 4 years...all shots were 50+ yards! 2 shot with mechanicals, 2 shot with fixed heads...all ended with dead deer.


----------



## sethro02

i guess my point is i shot 4 good shots luckily and did not have a problem...and in that time frame of 4 years my k.e was 52-63lbs


----------



## Super 91

I had to lower my poundage this year, and am shooting 65-66KE. Thought it was less KE but had punched in the wrong numbers in the KE calc. I am seriously considering Ulmer Edge for and elk hunt this year. I know that is very controversial and normally would not even consider the mechanical head for elk. But I feel the Edge has addressed many penetration issues and the design is tremendous! If I don't go with the Edge, I will be sporting TT Shuttle T's or SteelForce Phatheads. All thanks to Seth's tests and my conclusions from testing these myself. This type of testing just goes to show you the cream of the crop of heads in worst case scenarios. Thank you Seth, this has been a real joy to experience with you. Even if my BuzzCut I sent you almost failed! Ha!


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## sethro02

haha no problem..look at this way with the ulmer edge...dan evans is an elk killing machine! He has 3 solid heads that work just fine for him!


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## sethro02

it's almost a bad thing having all of these good choices! j/k


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## sethro02

super 91 in my opinion its worth buying the shuttle t or terminal t just to see how quiet they are!


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## Rothhar1

Hay seth if you ever try an stryker 380 xbow or any other doing what you are doing now be carefull ..I shot mine with a slick trick mag 125 tonite make sure you have a real good back stop!!shot one in my target tonite it was ugly they burried all the way to the fletch in a new mule deer target !Im sure that if it had been an old or slight shot up target it would of been gone out the other side !!BTW I did not shoot the target broadside Ishot it strait up the rear useing the tail as a guid also to not shoot up the kill [email protected][email protected]:thumbs_up


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## tapout155

Sorry Sethro if this has been asked 1000 times but what was your draw length, draw weight, and arrow weight? I'm just trying to figure something out.


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## sethro02

dl= 29", dw-52 to 53lbs (for this test only), arrow weight 438 grains


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## sethro02

my chrono speed before i started testing averaged at 269fps


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## BigB_2579

Man , this has been a great read on here ... Great Job Seth ! 

I would like to point one thing out that I don't think has been talked about ... If it has , I apologize. Aside from learning about different broadheads and what they will do / damage / penetration / durability ... I've also picked up on how well ALL of these heads are flying! Tells me one thing ... That probably 90% of broadhead flight issues are due to improper setup or tuning. Anyone else notice this ? Just my two cents ... I didn't go back and check the spreadsheet , but I don't recall any of these heads recieving a low flight score. Anyway , keep it up Seth , can't wait for the next test ! 
Big B.


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## gdouty

BigB_2579 said:


> Man , this has been a great read on here ... Great Job Seth !
> 
> I would like to point one thing out that I don't think has been talked about ... If it has , I apologize. Aside from learning about different broadheads and what they will do / damage / penetration / durability ... I've also picked up on how well ALL of these heads are flying! Tells me one thing ... That probably 90% of broadhead flight issues are due to improper setup or tuning. Anyone else notice this ? Just my two cents ... I didn't go back and check the spreadsheet , but I don't recall any of these heads recieving a low flight score. Anyway , keep it up Seth , can't wait for the next test !
> Big B.


All of these tests were done at 20 yds. Flight scores would vary much more at 40 yds. I believe Seth has commented that the next tests will be done at either 30 or 40 yds. I think this along with shooting the mechs at a higher draw weight will move some of the mechs up the list because penetration will improve and the fixed blades will likely have more flight variance, at least that has been my experience.


----------



## BigB_2579

gdouty said:


> All of these tests were done at 20 yds. Flight scores would vary much more at 40 yds. I believe Seth has commented that the next tests will be done at either 30 or 40 yds. I think this along with shooting the mechs at a higher draw weight will move some of the mechs up the list because penetration will improve and the fixed blades will likely have more flight variance, at least that has been my experience.


I got you ... I , for some reason , thought I read at the start of the thread that he was shooting from 30 yds ... Still , I've read A TON of threads on here about broadheads ... Even at 20 yds ... Not grouping with field tips. And , it seems a lot of people always blame the head. Just thought it was a good thing to point out ... Even if it's from 20 yds ! I do agree with you that there would probably be some difference at 40 yds and beyond , though. 

Big B.


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## Norwegian Woods

sethro02 said:


> Ill look into it..im trying to get next test as close to perfect...may have to wait to get deer shoulder to compare..but if not I will for sure put a ton of research into the media


I think what you do already is good as it is as it gives a good indication on how different broad heads do, but of course is plywood not the same as deer bone and the gel is very different from deer muscles, heart, lungs and liver.

So if you want to expand this good test to another test that is close to perfect, you will have lots of searching and testing to do :tongue:

To use real shoulder blades may seem like a good idea, but the problem with it, is that you need to hit in the same spot at similar sized shoulder blades with every different broad head to be sure that you will get comparable results.
They also need to be "fresh" and not dry as the bone becomes much harder and act totally different than "fresh" bones.

I think the best is to find some sort of plates that has about the same thickness and material properties as an average fresh shoulder blade.
I have no idea if there are such plates 

I also think that gel is not a good material to use when testing broad heads. It is great for testing bullets as a bullet "punch" a hole and with that sort of trauma, gel acts very similar to animal tissue.
But when you cut gel as a broad head does, the gel acts very different and affects the broad head and arrow very differently compared with fresh animal tissue.

I know very many use gel for broad head tests and it can be very consistent, but it is far from being fresh animal tissue.
But I have no idea if there is anything available that is better to use than gel for testing broad heads 

I also think that it would be a good idea to test with both a 50 poundish bow and a 70 poundish bow.
I think the heavier bow will make it a bit harder for some broad heads to meet the material that imitates bone 
Some already didn't like to meet the plywood in this test. I guess more will not like to meet it from a heavier bow

But whatever you choose to do *sethro02*, I am sure it will be a good test.
Thanks for doing all this for us!


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## TimmyZ7

Norwegian Woods said:


> I think what you do already is good as it is as it gives a good indication on how different broad heads do, but of course is plywood not the same as deer bone and the gel is very different from deer muscles, heart, lungs and liver.
> 
> So if you want to expand this good test to another test that is close to perfect, you will have lots of searching and testing to do :tongue:
> 
> To use real shoulder blades may seem like a good idea, but the problem with it, is that you need to hit in the same spot at similar sized shoulder blades with every different broad head to be sure that you will get comparable results.
> They also need to be "fresh" and not dry as the bone becomes much harder and act totally different than "fresh" bones.
> 
> I think the best is to find some sort of plates that has about the same thickness and material properties as an average fresh shoulder blade.
> I have no idea if there are such plates
> 
> I also think that gel is not a good material to use when testing broad heads. It is great for testing bullets as a bullet "punch" a hole and with that sort of trauma, gel acts very similar to animal tissue.
> But when you cut gel as a broad head does, the gel acts very different and affects the broad head and arrow very differently compared with fresh animal tissue.
> 
> I know very many use gel for broad head tests and it can be very consistent, but it is far from being fresh animal tissue.
> But I have no idea if there is anything available that is better to use than gel for testing broad heads
> 
> I also think that it would be a good idea to test with both a 50 poundish bow and a 70 poundish bow.
> I think the heavier bow will make it a bit harder for some broad heads to meet the material that imitates bone
> Some already didn't like to meet the plywood in this test. I guess more will not like to meet it from a heavier bow
> 
> But whatever you choose to do *sethro02*, I am sure it will be a good test.
> Thanks for doing all this for us!


I agree! :thumbs_up


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## sethro02

Thanks guys..the deer shoulders were to just compare to other medias..i wasnt gonna shoot the whole test with them..and yes this test was done at 20 yrds due to some weather problems..next test will be 50ish yds...and yes a well tuned bow is a good thing


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## Ned250

spreadsheet updated with yesterday's tests - https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AgJEvQwzfDRZdGxzdC15R0JIZDJGQ1J4bVpGV1pTWHc

C'mon Seth. 1 more head get's us to 50!


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## sethro02

Haha..thx ned250


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## 206Moose

TimmyZ7 said:


> Sethro considering you have two mechanical heads at the top of your list and admittedly shot a fixed head previously I think it's safe to say we may be reading the results in a similar manner. I believe that Sethro's results are quite the opposite of what most people have concluded. From what has been demonstrated at only 69k.e. he was able to successfully exit the gel with 2"+ mechanicals. Having utilized lower k.e. with some of those heads and still being able to penetrate wood and gel with them the way he has is deserving of a hats off to some of these mechanical heads and their manufactures. On a broadside shot with 80k.e.+ and less resistance then the test one could conclude even further how much more impressive the results will become; with the additional confidence through the unintended shoulder/gut shots as well.


I must be an oddball. My bow only has about 60 ke. Has anyone ever done a poll to see what the average ke is? Think i saw a poll that showed most people shot 60 lbs. I prefer quite and smooth plus i cant shoot high poundage or speed bows with moa accuracy 1 inch for every 10 yards. 

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2


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## 206Moose

flopduster said:


> Seth,
> Based on what you have seen in this test, which head would you put on the end of an arrow for a youth shooting 35 lbs?


With low poundage using a heavy broadhead is a good way to increase ke. My son uses 125 grain heads and coc a shoulder hit is pretty much a moot point with this low ke. I also will not let him shoot over 20 yards. Good luck 

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2


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## qmb9015

ok all this talk about KE how do i figure out how much KE my bow has


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## sethro02

google backcountry bowhunting and it has a ke and speed calculator...ur bow ibo needs to be honest


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## Ned250

I'm an analyst at heart so I decided to dig through the data a little bit this morning and looked at the heads that scored a 10 or 11 on Penetration _only_. Just some random nuggets to ponder...


16 heads out of the 49 total - 4 Mechanicals, 12 Fixed. 
13 different manufacturers - Trophy Taker had 3, Muzzy had 2. Everyone else had 1 each. Special shoutout to SETH for his Raging Ulmer hybrid.
Top 10 (by total score) were all Fixed heads.
Only 1 head scored an 11 and that was a Mechanical (TT Ulmer Edge).
Average cut diameter of Fixed heads was 1.13", 1.56" for Mechanical 
Average cut surface of Fixed heads was 3.26", 2.25" for Mechanical (note, I'm missing data for 4 heads here)
2 heads failed the durability test - Wac'em Triton (Fixed) and Reign (Mechanical)


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## sethro02

Raging ulmer was mine..not that it matters...its my only frankenhead so let me live it up! Good info ned250


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## 0nepin

sethro02 said:


> Raging ulmer was mine..not that it matters...its my only frankenhead so let me live it up! Good info ned250


Yep the raging ulmer is all sethro and it's a beast!!!!!


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## Ned250

sethro02 said:


> Raging ulmer was mine..not that it matters...its my only frankenhead so let me live it up! Good info ned250


Doh! Fixed it. Good work!


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## 0nepin

NTYMADATER said:


> I must be an oddball. My bow only has about 60 ke. Has anyone ever done a poll to see what the average ke is? Think i saw a poll that showed most people shot 60 lbs. I prefer quite and smooth plus i cant shoot high poundage or speed bows with moa accuracy 1 inch for every 10 yards.
> 
> Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2


Yes you are a oddball.60lb that's so 1995.jk but now I see why you like really small fixed heads.


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## sethro02

Hey man 60lbs is ok...uncle ted shoots a 48lb martin..their is no way it has much more than 50lb ke. He gets passthroughs...one pin do you know of anyone with 70lb limbs for my axe?


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## KMD

KE is only a guideline. Moreso, the _momentum_ of an arrow gives a better indication of performance on game. Fast/light setups bleed off energy much quicker than slower/heavier setups. So, when comparing KE values derived from an online calculator, don't forget the importance of the arrow's momentum and how it relates to perfomance on game...


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## GarrickTX

No matter what ke or fps you are shooting, shoot whats comfortable. And we need not be so judgemental on someone else because of the BH they use or what bow they are shooting or how fast. This isn't a competition between archers this is an informational test. Just thought that needed to be said, some on here are getting off track by trying to figure out why someone else is using a different head... It is a free country (for the most part) everybody can choose for themselves on what head they want to shoot. And none of us have the right to judge them for that, whether you use fixed or mechanical we are all archers.

I think this test is a very good objective test. Thanks Seth


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## sethro02

Your right...also momentum is very important plus slim arrows arent calculated in the online calculators ...speed wise anyways...slim arrow and fat arrow weighing the same in my experiance the slim holds its speed longer(less wind resistance)


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## KMD

I should have added above that KE derived from increased arrow mass is more relevant to arrow penetration than KE derived from increased velocity...

And good point about fat vs. slim arrows. I think a slim arrow will penetrate better simply due to the decreased frontal area & less frictional resistance in the 'wake' of the broadhead.


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## 0nepin

You missed the JK . To be the best that we can be, we need match the bow to us and then match the arrow to the bow and then use the most effective broadhead for our setup.and if was only getting 60lb ke witch is fine I would use a much smaller cutting broadhead as well.


GarrickTX said:


> No matter what ke or fps you are shooting, shoot whats comfortable. And we need not be so judgemental on someone else because of the BH they use or what bow they are shooting or how fast. This isn't a competition between archers this is an informational test. Just thought that needed to be said, some on here are getting off track by trying to figure out why someone else is using a different head... It is a free country (for the most part) everybody can choose for themselves on what head they want to shoot. And none of us have the right to judge them for that, whether you use fixed or mechanical we are all archers.
> 
> I think this test is a very good objective test. Thanks Seth


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## Norwegian Woods

qmb9015 said:


> ok all this talk about KE how do i figure out how much KE my bow has


I use http://archeryreport.com/calculators.html

According to that I have 0.69 momentum and 89.9 KE with my 600 grain arrow doing 260 fps.


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## 0nepin

sethro02 said:


> Hey man 60lbs is ok...uncle ted shoots a 48lb martin..their is no way it has much more than 50lb ke. He gets passthroughs...one pin do you know of anyone with 70lb limbs for my axe?


I meant 60lb ke, which is fine ,I was just giving him a hard time.I would pm breathn he might have those limbs in stock.all I have now are 80lb limbs.


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## gdouty

qmb9015 said:


> ok all this talk about KE how do i figure out how much KE my bow has


Here is a link to my KE Calculator. It also has some info regarding nock (Lumenock & Tracer) and fletching weights. Just input your infor and it will calculate your KE for you. 

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0ApyZaJdBVcaMdGwzM0hHYlhjUm9tbDZqV3V4NHpYSlE


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## GarrickTX

0nepin said:


> You missed the JK . *To be the best that we can be, we need match the bow to us and then match the arrow to the bow and then use the most effective broadhead for our setup.*and if was only getting 60lb ke witch is fine I would use a much smaller cutting broadhead as well.


No I saw the JK, I just felt it needed to be said. Wasn't singling you out. I agree with your point


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## sethro02

It was funny onepin..


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## sethro02

You guys are giving me ideas about next test..i was gonna do light vs medium vs heavy arrow tipped with same broadhead now I may do that but also add a few more shots with dramatically lower ke..to compare


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## 206Moose

sethro02 said:


> Hey man 60lbs is ok...uncle ted shoots a 48lb martin..their is no way it has much more than 50lb ke. He gets passthroughs...one pin do you know of anyone with 70lb limbs for my axe?


I have a little proof that 60 ke will kill deer.


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## sethro02

Nice proof!


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## 0nepin

Nice!!! I have just a little Proof that 123lb ke will kill .


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## 206Moose

In your opinion sethro what would you recommend as the minimum amount of ke one should use with mechs? Of course taking into account the dreaded shoulder hit. I think low ke is a major reason mechs get a bad name.


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## 0nepin

NTYMADATER said:


> I have a little proof that 60 ke will kill deer.


Where are those deer from? The top one in the middle is wild.


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## sethro02

Keep in mind I am a "prepare for worst case" kinda hunter....in my opinion I wouldnt shoot 2"+ mechs unless I was in the 55 to 60 lb ke with an arrow of 400 grains or more...can you kill a deer with a big expandle with 45lb ke? Yes! Can you do it efficiently over and over, good and bad shots? ...maybe but I would say you will run into problems...i think if you are a low ke setup but you have a decent weighted arrow then some 1.5" expandables like the tekan would be a good choice..they are easy to open


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## 206Moose

0nepin said:


> Where are those deer from? The top one in the middle is wild.


All but 2 are from public land in va 

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2


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## Rothhar1

Seth may I suggest a board placed into the Gel below the surface a few inches and the cover cloth right on the surfac just for a giggles test on a BH or two then compair the results of depth and cutting surface !! It could be telling at least but you will want to continue your testing format as is to be fair for now!

BTW seth I do not shoot mecs unless im in the upper 60s to mid 70s KE /and in the .5000 range of momentum I use the momentum number far more as my base guideline than the KE.I have found the best results of flight and arrow penetration with an arrow carring a 125 gr point of any make for great FOC and a correctly spined arrow with 4 inch vains and standard style nock gives a little more weight to the arrow and I want the pacage to be between 425 -470 grains I like em right about 450 gr .total i find I optomise almost all my hunting bows preformance with this combo type.


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## sethro02

So u mean vinyl..then a little gel then board then more gel? The ke momentum expandle debate will for sure be tested by me


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## manboy

NTYMADATER said:


> I have a little proof that 60 ke will kill deer.



thats nice.....but some of us hunt things a little bigger than a 90# southeastern deer..............


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## TimmyZ7

Some people make statements simply to show off. Where did I say 60lbs couldn't kill animals. And what makes you think a stiffer spine arrow, which is typically heavier as a result of the increased spine, isn't quiet? You could shoot 2"+ from any bow and kill when everything goes right but you are still not utilizing the full potential of that large broadhead without the kind of k.e. and momentum that justifies it. Sethros tests does not prove mechanicals are inferior, it proves what mechanicals can do when being drawn at 53lbs and pushed by 69k.e. Respectfully I submit that in order for a large mechanical to perform at its full potential it requires more. What does posting up mounts have to do with this? The fact that they performed as they did through wood and gels with them stats speaks highly of them IMO. I can safely assume with more k.e., momentum or weight at higher speeds it will improve the results and especially with live animals.


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## Rothhar1

Yes it will represent the structure more truly of the body of an animal Skin first then a inch or two muscle then bone then organs then a the repeat bone flesh and skin on the back side! going out .That will be about as accurate as you will get in any test also been some concern about the inconsistency of the boards !! Do not worry with it there is nothing more inconsistent than real bone !!


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## Rothhar1

So vinyl gel a couple of inches then gel for a while then board then lots of gel then board then gel then board again then gel then vinyl there you have a deer body !!Here is a great chest cavity reference for you right at the heart..


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## sethro02

Yea I got ya shouldernuke..
Timmyz7 I hope I didnt upset you?! I was just answering a question..also we need to remember a heavy arrow is different for all of us..their is such thing as too light and too heavy..imo..but this discussion is for a different time and place


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## 0nepin

manboy said:


> thats nice.....but some of us hunt things a little bigger than a 90# southeastern deer..............


Ouch!!!


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## Rothhar1

Notice about 3/4 of the way up to just a few inches from the top that is where the shoulder blades start and go up from there !! So in fact if a hunter hits the "TRUE" shoulder blade they have likely missed the lungs and heart areas completely unless the angle downward is very very steep. Many hunter think they are in the shoulder bone about half way up the chest cavity in the large muscle mass or what I call the puffed mass of the shoulder . Truth is all they likely hit there was a very large muscle mass a few ribs and then the organs and if perfectly broadside the same structure on the other side and that is usually enough to stop med to light weight arrows. There is however a spot in the front of that where the large bone of the leg connects to the shoulder blade and is what dead stops none chisel pointed arrows on the lite side easily every time !!

Notice these pics its telling on most bad frontal shots !!


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## sethro02

nice refereneces shouldernuke


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## 206Moose

manboy said:


> thats nice.....but some of us hunt things a little bigger than a 90# southeastern deer..............


What an ass. I bet your daddy can beat up mine. Grow up dude

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2


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## Rothhar1

NP seth It took some years to understand without any bias what it takes to make my equipment as optimized a deer killing machine as possible .So now almost 40 years later of doing it I know that there is no such thing as a bad angle they all lead to the kill zone ..But a shooter /hunter must know his limitations and understand that even a broadside deer can cause a bad wound only .. So I "personally understand what I am looking at and where to put the arrow at in any diction . Notice this impact spot on this buck!! Had I hit him with the rage in my quiver instead of the Chisel pointed ST 125 mag I would of lost him .I know I have seen it and done it once with a less than well constructed bone breaker point . The big joint was shattered with the 435 gr arrow and solid steel chisel point as he was standing quartered to me at 27 yards ! Aluminum round or or flat pointed BH would of likely balked on that hit at least ..

Please understand everyone I am condoning that everyone should attempt these sort of shots especially if they are worried about their own skills or the animals they hunt or shoot light arrows or mecs .. Just saying and will not argue about this as this a personal choice. I BTW have lost 4 deer in 40 years two were perfectly broadside one quartered to me and one quartered away . Not too bad but no one will remain perfect if they hunt long enough .. Know your limitations and your equipments as well and learn everything about the animals we hunt and kill and as you can see there is NO void between the lungs and spine never was and never will be ! Notice all hard shoulder hits one was very steep angle downward through the "TRUE" shoulder blade and came out the bottom of the chest she was at 12 yards below me . Point is these shots work and work well with the right equipment and body knowledge of the game we take . Also notice the full frontal Lt shoulder lead hit and large impact wound that was rage 2 blade . compete pass though out the rear end on the far lower hip at about 35 yards.


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## manboy

NTYMADATER said:


> What an ass. I bet your daddy can beat up mine. Grow up dude
> 
> Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2



a little tender are we......just saying for you 60# may work.....but for 800# elk, moose...you might want a little more...


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## Ned250

Shouldernuke! said:


> Notice about 3/4 of the way up to just a few inches from the top that is where the shoulder blades start and go up from there !! So in fact if a hunter hits the "TRUE" shoulder blade they have likely missed the lungs and heart areas completely unless the angle downward is very very steep. Many hunter think they are in the shoulder bone about half way up the chest cavity in the large muscle mass or what I call the puffed mass of the shoulder . Truth is all they likely hit there was a very large muscle mass a few ribs and then the organs and if perfectly broadside the same structure on the other side and that is usually enough to stop med to light weight arrows. There is however a spot in the front of that where the large bone of the leg connects to the shoulder blade and is what dead stops none chisel pointed arrows on the lite side easily every time !!
> 
> Notice these pics its telling on most bad frontal shots !!


Good stuff. I don't want to derail the thread, so I'll just link it. There's an outstanding thread on hitting that 'crease' - http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=379263&highlight=%2Bcrease+%2Bleg


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## sethro02

Thanks guys


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## Rothhar1

Sorry seth if I derailed your thread but I felt with some of the posts lately that thses pics and explanations were in order now. I will step away from the keys now.Hunters with just a gut feeling of preconceived notion about how or where to shoot animals or what arrow or BH type or shot placement need to know there are always options and its all about what you have in your hand and in your quiver . And more than that your shooting abilities and confidance in knowing exactly what you are looking at when the animal is in any position . After all a dead deer is just that dead .But a lost deer has a reason for being lost!!!! Usually wrong arrow momentum for the type of BH and tip being used , or mostly the wrong shot placement ..


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## sethro02

Its cool...it was all very useful


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## TimmyZ7

I wasn't speaking to what you said Sethro. Also, is the spreadsheet not for making comparisons and conclusions based on the data derived from your test? I was under the assumption it was a part of the topic to evaluate the results based on what each head culminated. The fact of the matter is that it is dishonest to generalize these particular test results as the peak performance of the mechanical heads tested. What I said was that these results replicate what mechanical heads do at the 53lbs draw weight with 69k.e. through the wood and gel. That has no bias in it whatsoever. It seems I struck a cord with some for suggesting that the mechanical heads do have more to offer when being coupled with more k.e., momentum, draw weight, etc. That was the basis of my statements and I was pleased by the results at the said poundage. 

It became typical AT whenever a person suggests anything above 60lbs will lead to greater results that people suggest the operator must be struggling to shoot, louder, going to blow his shoulders or challenging their manhood...when no one is actually comparing the two types of shooters but the results that each would distinctively gather. I was not speaking less of someone who shoots that but I feel most hunters who do their research, either by trial and error or studying the physics, know that there comes a point where a man has to know his limitations. In this case shooting broadheads that are bigger then the energy he can supply them with to be able to break through an unintended shoulder shot. That was my emphasis and it was never initiated as a challenge or complaint, simply an observation. I think anyone can agree more friction requires more force (larger mechanical) in order to penetrate equal to or similar to that with less friction (small fixed head). So shooting the small fixed with the large mechanicals off that same platform was a no brainer to assume the fixed heads penetration would in large part be superior. That's why I was impressed by the Grave Digger and Rage and so forth to be able to do as well as I perceived they did.


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## TimmyZ7

Thank you shouldernuke that was the point I was trying to get across. When the equipment is matched properly it is most effective.


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## Rothhar1

sethro02 said:


> Its cool...it was all very useful


BTW I got the name "Shouldernuke" long many years before the INTERNET was here !! It was because my hunting partners were always wondrous of my ability to make pass through or accurate shoulder shots work time and time again either entering the animal or exiting it through he chest cavity . They started calling me "SHOULDERNUKER!! about 35 years ago. Its no fluke I understood early on what many have struggled with and thats shot placement at any angle and how to optimize my setups for the just in-case hunting scenario! Almost every deer on my wall have at least one damaged shoulder as did most of the deer I killed they are the aimpoint I use to get sure kills .

Thanks to Dan Fitzgerald for showing these type of shots and for his stance on taking shots like that back when he wa jst a new video hunter 35 years ago .I got what he was selling fast and some I hunt with still just dont get it . Back when hunting vids were for more than selling stuff you could learn something !! LMAO


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## Make It Happen

Where some manufactures always seem to jump in and comment there not on this thread. I for one dont recall seeing their comments posted, one of these being a favorite 4 blade fixed... I find this amussing


----------



## TimmyZ7

Shouldernuke! said:


> BTW I got the name "Shouldernuke" long many years before the INTERNET was here !! It was because my hunting partners were always wondrous of my ability to make pass through or accurate shoulder shots work time and time again either entering the animal or exiting it through he chest cavity . They started calling me "SHOULDERNUKER!! about 35 years ago. Its no fluke I understood early on what many have struggled with and thats shot placement at any angle and how to optimize my setups for the just in-case hunting scenario! Almost every deer on my wall have at least one damaged shoulder as did most of the deer I killed they are the aimpoint I use to gt sure kills .
> 
> Thanks to Dan Fitzgerald for showing these type of shots and for his stance on taking shots like that back when he wa jst a new video hunter 35 years ago .I got what he was selling fast and some I hunt with still just dont get it . Back when hunting vids were for more than selling stuff you could learn something !! LMAO


Finally, someone who can invite Whack&Stack to their hunting camp, lol. Someone suggested in another thread he wouldn't be able to hunt with them because he aimed for shoulders and was unethical. I was trying to figure out how you came up with the name but as they say a picture is worth a thousand words.


----------



## sethro02

Guys all good points..i dont care what we talk about with the test resultsi just sidnt think people would want me to talk about different arrows and how that could affect penetration and yada yada..i for one is happy to see mechanicals at least getting to second media..that sais alot....btw the only reason I wanted to shoot the poundage I do is simply because of turkey hunting..sitting down next to a tree drawi.ng slowly is an advantage so then I never changed after my success


----------



## TimmyZ7

sethro02 said:


> Guys all good points..i dont care what we talk about with the test resultsi just sidnt think people would want me to talk about different arrows and how that could affect penetration and yada yada..i for one is happy to see mechanicals at least getting to second media..that sais alot....btw the only reason I wanted to shoot the poundage I do is simply because of turkey hunting..sitting down next to a tree drawi.ng slowly is an advantage so then I never changed after my success


I believe you were successful with your efforts Sethro, just about every broadhead thread on AT has a link to this one or your name in it. Educating fellow hunters with test results is a plus; especially since most are new that are asking the questions. The sacrifices you have made along with others that were patient (family), generous (those who donated) and Ned for his large part in collecting the data, tips my hat off to everyone. Thanks to shouldernuke for illustrating the lethality of shoulder shots when coupled with confidence and no how and really because I am a sucker for the carnage photos.


----------



## 206Moose

manboy said:


> a little tender are we......just saying for you 60# may work.....but for 800# elk, moose...you might want a little more...


No **** sherlock but this whole test has been about whitetail sized game. His test medium is 10" thick. Not exactly elk or moose size. Your comment was uncalled for so if you cant make an intelligent comment keep it to yourself. 

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2


----------



## Rothhar1

sethro02 said:


> Guys all good points..i dont care what we talk about with the test resultsi just sidnt think people would want me to talk about different arrows and how that could affect penetration and yada yada..i for one is happy to see mechanicals at least getting to second media..that sais alot....btw the only reason I wanted to shoot the poundage I do is simply because of turkey hunting..sitting down next to a tree drawi.ng slowly is an advantage so then I never changed after my success


Its fine seth its your show buddy stick with it!! I find it strange though that many hunters say how hard a new 70-80 # bow is to draw compared to old 70 # or 80# draw bow !! Funny thing is that they are the exact same poundage they were 40 years ago!! Some say they want to keep it easy to draw or this or that .Funny but letoff has never been at a higher rate on bows than it is today .. I think that they are headed in the wrong direction .Sure speeds of todays bows with very lite arrows are blistering compared to the 200 FPS 94# bow I shot 40 years ago with a 550gr arrow . But I will say this if a hunter wants to optimize his set up they need to buy the next highest draw weight bow .If they want to build up their draw weight over the summer to get more out of their setups . 

In other words if they are used to shooting say 60# and want more start off early in the year at 60 and then every week or two ratchet up the poundage a pound thats all they have to do .If it becomes too much back it right back down ..But if they feel good drawing then next pound keep on moving up .. That is how we always got up to drawing such crazy poundage and we did not struggle with it by the time we were hunting .I hunted with 80# till about 10 years ago and now I hunt at 72 # and can set and draw it no problem come season. Its like lifting weights you can and will build up over time and it becomes easy before long .. BTW I'm not a young pup anymore dang it!

If not guys stay where you are but I want you all to know there are alternatives to low poundage lite arrows out here its all in your hands but do yourselves and the game you hunt a favor use the right heads with the right setups !!

The extra speed and momentum shows up big on targeted animals and optimizes your setups!


----------



## sethro02

To make it happen..dale from no limit archery who makes gravedigger...rusty ulmer who designed ulmer edge...and alwayslookin who is mr davis from steelforce has been quite active towards the beginning of these tests...also their have been 5 other bh manufactures who has been in contact throu6h email and phone...so yes they are watching..just not commenting


----------



## TimmyZ7

Totally agree Nuke, thanks for the wisdom.


----------



## goathollow

I don't think the medium used is nearly as important as some make it out to be. As long as it is a reasonable facimile of the real thing and it is consistent it is a fair test. Seth's medium of the vinyl/plywood/gel/plywood/vinyl may be a worst case example but it was actually pretty darn consistent and I don't think that there was that much variance in the consistency of the plywood (I saw it first hand). The upside is that it allowed him to measure penetration. If almost every arrow completely passed through and stuck in the backstop or just fell out the back he would have no way to measure the penetration. IMO he actually needed a medium tough enough to stop all the arrows so he could gauge a difference from broadhead to broadhead.


----------



## danray

I have not kept up with the last 40 pages of this thread. Were the final results of all the heads ever put together for comparison? If so, could someone tell me which page? Thanks. BTW, thanks Seth for all the hard work and time.


----------



## alwayslookin

manboy said:


> a little tender are we......just saying for you 60# may work.....but for 800# elk, moose...you might want a little more...


Manboy....I respect your premise on a lot of these issues based on experience......but a modern 60 pound bow with todays broadheads is plenty for anything that walks in North America.

Your premise of a BIG mech head on a shot that if far back is a lil bit of "hoping to make the best of a bad situation"......but having followed a LOT of blood trails as a guide and hunter......I still think that crap hits are crap hits......and big mechs are REALLY impressive when they are put in the right spot......but no more deadly than a small fixed head in the right spot. My best friend is a Bear guide....and we follow some 30 blood trails a year.......He was so impressed with Rage blood trails until I pointed out that all of the hits were great......his loss percentages were identical on poor hits ......and I said to him.....were you any more impressed with the wound with a Rage than a smaller fixed head.......he thought about it and said....."Nope, we lost those bears too"
People lose animals because they do not hit them right......people find animals that are hit good.
As for glancing hits with COC heads........if a COC head glances.....any other head will.....it has to do more with shot angle than design.


----------



## alwayslookin

Make It Happen said:


> Where some manufactures always seem to jump in and comment there not on this thread. I for one dont recall seeing their comments posted, one of these being a favorite 4 blade fixed... I find this amussing


There are a few of us.....it is like I told Seth, Brdymakr, and ******........I will send heads and let the results speak for themselves.....if we as a manufacturer does a test......it is OUR test.......we really like "real" testing.........we may not win in every category......but we consistently perform among the best. This is a VERY competitive category , with good quality available in many products.
Rather than me pick the test apart.....which is unproductive.....and usually only happens when a head is not rated well.......manufacturers need to embrace these tests......almost every head faces the same dificulties......and it will show trends.
Thaks Seth...and Brdy and ******.......


----------



## sethro02

Results are in my signature guys...thanks guys


----------



## Rothhar1

COC heads have a place as does every had but they tend to stop and bury on direct bone strikes as so the round pointed types .But There is no way around the fact that the design of a chisel point works in a way that it brakes apart the bones creating space for blades usually without the sudden stop of a blade type head that tends to wedge rather than split the bone allowing the chisel pointed head to pass through when in fact the COC are all blade and do not create the wedging effect or width in the bone ! But i agree all seths test are very relevant and as constant as any here or elsewhere done just to attempt to sell BHs by the manufacturers .


----------



## KMD

Make It Happen said:


> Where some manufactures always seem to jump in and comment there not on this thread. I for one dont recall seeing their comments posted, one of these being a favorite 4 blade fixed... I find this amussing


There are plenty of reasons why a manufacturer won't "jump in and comment".
In reality, shooting a broadhead/arrow into ballistic gelatin really has littler bearing on what really happens on tissue!

For one, when ballistic gelatin is cut by the broadhead, by its very nature, the gel closes back down, effectively "grabbing" the arrow shaft to slow it down.
IN GLARING contrast in the real world: when tissue is cut, *it retracts away from the source of the cut!!!*

I'm sure we've all cut ourselves at one time or another...ever see a bad cut TRY TO CLOSE ITSELF??? 

Heck no!!! Tissue splits wide open & away from the source!!! (this is why we need stitches to close a flesh wound   

Then...

Factor into the equation that when tissue is cut, it BLEEDS!

Blood is a lubricant! 

So when tissue is cut, not only does it spring back away from the blade without imparting excess drag on the arrow, the resultant blood from the broadhead cut serves to (literally) _lubricate the arrow shaft_!!! Effectively, blood is like 'oiling up' the arrow shaft, decreasing drag in the tissue, which actually helps the arrow continue to penetrate further!!!

*Bottom line is: ballistic Gel acts completely the opposite as living tissue when sliced with an arrow.*

Most "manufacturers" who know this are smart enough to stay away from these kinds of threads.
Why? Because trying to argue these points over the internet with product loyal & opinionated bowhunters would at best, be a LOSE / LOSE situation and more likely a PR nightmare for their company.

ONLY cuz you asked...


----------



## GarrickTX

KMD said:


> There are plenty of reasons why a manufacturer won't "jump in and comment".
> In reality, shooting a broadhead/arrow into ballistic gelatin really has littler bearing on what really happens on tissue!
> 
> For one, when ballistic gelatin is cut by the broadhead, by its very nature, the gel closes back down, effectively "grabbing" the arrow shaft to slow it down.
> IN GLARING contrast in the real world: when tissue is cut, *it retracts away from the source of the cut!!!*
> 
> I'm sure we've all cut ourselves at one time or another...ever see a bad cut TRY TO CLOSE ITSELF???
> 
> Heck no!!! Tissue splits wide open & away from the source!!! (this is why we need stitches to close a flesh wound
> 
> Then...
> 
> Factor into the equation that when tissue is cut, it BLEEDS!
> 
> Blood is a lubricant!
> 
> So when tissue is cut, not only does it spring back away from the blade without imparting excess drag on the arrow, the resultant blood from the broadhead cut serves to (literally) _lubricate the arrow shaft_!!! Effectively, blood is like 'oiling up' the arrow shaft, decreasing drag in the tissue, which actually helps the arrow continue to penetrate further!!!
> 
> *Bottom line is: ballistic Gel acts completely the opposite as living tissue when sliced with an arrow.*
> 
> Most "manufacturers" who know this are smart enough to stay away from these kinds of threads.
> Why? Because trying to argue these points over the internet with product loyal & opinionated bowhunters would at best, be a LOSE / LOSE situation and more likely a PR nightmare for their company.
> 
> ONLY cuz you asked...


It really depends on where the shot is... for example if you cut your palm and you open your hand, the cut opens: close your hand, the cut closes. alot of the muscle tissue that is cut will infact try to close back on itself depending on the direction of the cut ( along the striations or perpindicular). Not arguing with you just adding a small correction.


----------



## GarrickTX

On another note, Seth is the atom to be tested? I watched it tested on Ikes outdoors, but I have heard others say its not any good.


----------



## Rothhar1

KMD said:


> There are plenty of reasons why a manufacturer won't "jump in and comment".
> In reality, shooting a broadhead/arrow into ballistic gelatin really has littler bearing on what really happens on tissue!
> 
> For one, when ballistic gelatin is cut by the broadhead, by its very nature, the gel closes back down, effectively "grabbing" the arrow shaft to slow it down.
> IN GLARING contrast in the real world: when tissue is cut, *it retracts away from the source of the cut!!!*
> 
> I'm sure we've all cut ourselves at one time or another...ever see a bad cut TRY TO CLOSE ITSELF???
> 
> Heck no!!! Tissue splits wide open & away from the source!!! (this is why we need stitches to close a flesh wound
> 
> Then...
> 
> Factor into the equation that when tissue is cut, it BLEEDS!
> 
> Blood is a lubricant!
> 
> So when tissue is cut, not only does it spring back away from the blade without imparting excess drag on the arrow, the resultant blood from the broadhead cut serves to (literally) _lubricate the arrow shaft_!!! Effectively, blood is like 'oiling up' the arrow shaft, decreasing drag in the tissue, which actually helps the arrow continue to penetrate further!!!
> 
> *Bottom line is: ballistic Gel acts completely the opposite as living tissue when sliced with an arrow.*
> 
> Most "manufacturers" who know this are smart enough to stay away from these kinds of threads.
> Why? Because trying to argue these points over the internet with product loyal & opinionated bowhunters would at best, be a LOSE / LOSE situation and more likely a PR nightmare for their company.
> 
> ONLY cuz you asked...


Your way off base here there is all sorts of muscle contractions and drag on an arrow passing through an animal the flesh does not just instantly go limp or slump open! Your personal BH choice has obviously fallen short here and you now see your chance to boo hoo seths tests .! Will BG grab or slow an arrow ?? Sure so will flesh otherwise why do arrows stop in just an animal on lite bone or no bone hits ?? Rationalize that away now ?? You are also over esimating the power of blood to lubricate an arrow as well its not oil and may or may not come in the same amounts on different hits . 

Heck even if all the test were done on animals there is no consitancy this as consistant as we can be and there has to be some set medium to test on that cnbe somewhat duplicated over and over !


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## sethro02

i will be looking for an atom broadhead within driving distance...gonna be out and about this week....


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## DesignedToHunt

Pissing match aside, I'm glad I chose the Shuttle T this season!


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## Rothhar1

DesignedToHunt said:


> Pissing match aside, I'm glad I chose the Shuttle T this season!


they sem to have preformed well I have not shot one but I would be intrested in the impact point for one shot to another compaired with your old heads being a closed blade head with no air flow let us know what its like at distance please !!


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## tapout155

GarrickTX said:


> On another note, Seth is the atom to be tested? I watched it tested on Ikes outdoors, but I have heard others say its not any good.


I really want to see this one tested. The design seems cool and outside the box but i have never heard anything good.


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## sethro02

yes shuttle's are awesome...i was shooting the terminals from 50yds last night for the heck of it and busted a new injexion ! Dang field point accuracy!


----------



## DesignedToHunt

Shouldernuke! said:


> they sem to have preformed well I have not shot one but I would be intrested in the impact point for one shot to another compaired with your old heads being a closed blade head with no air flow let us know what its like at distance please !!


Will do bud. Lord willing I'll be testing them out this weekend.


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## Rothhar1

ty guys good deal


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## sethro02

Bllodruuners sold
Wasp bullets sold...thx guys!



St standards are for sale...all new blades..$25 tyd


----------



## 0nepin

sethro02 said:


> titanium extreme
> View attachment 1413194


A shot in the right spot from this head will bleed alot better than any fixed head on the market.remember this head penetrated the same as a slick-trick standard.


----------



## Rothhar1

0nepin said:


> A shot in the right spot from this head will bleed alot better any fixed head on the market.remember this head penetrated the same a slicktrick.


Agreed this just comes down to what a person wants ..IMHO moveing parts or no moveing parts.Less chance of any issues when there are less moveing parts on anything BH are included in that !


----------



## 0nepin

sethro02 said:


> slick trick standard
> View attachment 1416307


This hole can close up very easy and make your tracking job very hard.


----------



## Rothhar1

0nepin said:


> This hole can close up very easy and make your tracking job very hard.


Not so unless its full of guts or fat but then again as deer gut shot with that fold out can and will do the same as well .I been doing this along time that 4 blade has 2 full inches of surface cut and is no more likely to to close up than that gashed fold out hole is ! And I will say the thing we all strive for is an entrance and exit and without it both heads leave exactly half as much blood as they should of that large head takes alot of momentum to open and should not be shot by any low poundage rig its that simple!


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## 206Moose

Wish i had a dollar for every time onepin has posted those pictures. LOL. jk 

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2


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## sethro02

i think this is why the gravedigger was invented...you get the best of both worlds


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## sethro02

mail call!!!!!! schwaker 1.75" thanks timmyz7!


----------



## seiowabow

0nepin said:


> This hole can close up very easy and make your tracking job very hard.


Do you just have a personal issue with slick tricks or what?

Sent from my DROID4 using Tapatalk 2


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## GarrickTX

well if/when you start up a youtube channel you have a subscriber right here


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## sethro02

Thx bud it will happen


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## GarrickTX

Seth did you ever shoot the field point into it to see how it would do? I remember you said you would probably try it. It would make something very solid to compare the BHs to, I would think. It would give everyone an idea on how much drag the blades cause vs. bigger cutting area.


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## sethro02

I did but my arrow broke so I need to get more arrows to retest..getting arrows today


----------



## goathollow

sethro02 said:


> Bllodruuners sold
> Wasp bullets sold...thx guys!
> 
> 
> 
> St standards are for sale...all new blades..$25 tyd


Too bad those ST Standards are not Vipertricks...I'd be on them like a duck on a june bug!!

By the way, my Cabelas order for Phatheads arrived and I shot them last night. I hate to say it but I think my 27 year relationship with my ole Muzzy 4 blades is in jeopardy.


----------



## Rothhar1

goathollow said:


> Too bad those ST Standards are not Vipertricks...I'd be on them like a duck on a june bug!!
> 
> By the way, my Cabelas order for Phatheads arrived and I shot them last night. I hate to say it but I think my 27 year relationship with my ole Muzzy 4 blades is in jeopardy.


I dont blame you just the fact that my old standar Thunderheads have like your muzzy a alminum ferrel is enough to now stay with the all steel type construction heads


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## sethro02

Haha...steelforce is underrated


----------



## sethro02

Phathead 100 is aluminum ferrule..125 grain you can get in steel ferrule I think..chk their website though


----------



## Rothhar1

sethro02 said:


> Haha...steelforce is underrated


Thats not a bad thing really keeps the prices good and pleanty of room for sales to move up over time !!


----------



## KMD

Shouldernuke! said:


> Your way off base here there is all sorts of muscle contractions and drag on an arrow passing through an animal the flesh does not just instantly go limp or slump open! Your personal BH choice has obviously fallen short here and you now see your chance to boo hoo seths tests .! Will BG grab or slow an arrow ?? Sure so will flesh otherwise why do arrows stop in just an animal on lite bone or no bone hits ?? Rationalize that away now ?? You are also over esimating the power of blood to lubricate an arrow as well its not oil and may or may not come in the same amounts on different hits .
> 
> Heck even if all the test were done on animals there is no consitancy this as consistant as we can be and there has to be some set medium to test on that cnbe somewhat duplicated over and over !



BTW, I don't hold any allegience to any company & have stopped hearts with everything from field points, to mechanicals, to COCs.
So there's no rationalizing or (cheerleading) going on and I dang sure ain't got a "favorite" anything. They are all tools & should be used as such, pick the one that works best for you & to heck with the rest...


If you don't think blood can act as a lubricant, you've obviously never been around much.

If you think that living flesh can be compared to ballistic gel when cut, you've obviously not done much cutting, or seen many flesh wounds.

Thank you for so beautifully illustrating my point about why you won't see more "manufacturers" input on this thread.

As for Seth's hardwork, I maintain that he's done an outstanding job in collecting data from ONE broadhead to another on a consistent playing field. Above & beyond the call of duty!!! How that data is interpreted is up to you. So if you have a "favorite" broadhead that scored well, then....CONGRATULATIONS! (I guess?)


----------



## 102

Or we could just ask someone who has taken 100's of deer at all kinds of shot angles through all kinds of wound chanels with all types of broadheads what they think?

What is the purpose of this test?

Is it about broadhead accuracy?
Sharpness?
Blade cut diameter?

Or do we want to know about how these heads perform on REAL LIVE deer under actual hunting conditions?


----------



## Rothhar1

102 said:


> Or we could just ask someone who has taken 100's of deer at all kinds of shot angles through all kinds of wound chanels with all types of broadheads what they think?
> 
> What is the purpose of this test?
> 
> Is it about broadhead accuracy?
> Sharpness?
> Blade cut diameter?
> 
> Or do we want to know about how these heads perform on REAL LIVE deer under actual hunting conditions?


It is about all of that and more like consistency , penetration ,durability ,accuracy comes from the individuals set up so that is a variables that can not be decided on one bow !! Also an idividual can hold and always does for one BH type ,brand ,or particular head that may or may not be right fore the next person or thier setup .This does away with that compleatly.


----------



## Gypsy Rover

Lots of clutter on the thread...I wanna see more results!!! checking this thing every 20 minutes or so!

Kodus to seth...


----------



## Rothhar1

KMD said:


> BTW, I don't hold any allegience to any company & have stopped hearts with everything from field points, to mechanicals, to COCs.
> So there's no rationalizing or (cheerleading) going on and I dang sure ain't got a "favorite" anything. They are all tools & should be used as such, pick the one that works best for you & to heck with the rest...
> 
> 
> If you don't think blood can act as a lubricant, you've obviously never been around much.
> 
> If you think that living flesh can be compared to ballistic gel when cut, you've obviously not done much cutting, or seen many flesh wounds.
> 
> Thank you for so beautifully illustrating my point about why you won't see more "manufacturers" input on this thread.
> 
> As for Seth's hardwork, I maintain that he's done an outstanding job in collecting data from ONE broadhead to another on a consistent playing field. Above & beyond the call of duty!!! How that data is interpreted is up to you. So if you have a "favorite" broadhead that scored well, then....CONGRATULATIONS! (I guess?)


And all those things you listed are variables and feeling you have about it, and have nothing to do with these tests and you illustrated more than I ever could why manufactures don't get involved is due to misconceptions about how things work.how one can conceive something in their own mind that has no way to be proven or reproduced in a test situation .You have ideas of what you think happen on all the deer /game shots and need to know that no two shots produce the same result on game .The input from any manufacture on this thread directing seth or anyone here to think or test a specific way would immediately call that manufactures motive into question and could be considered a defensive move on their part for some sort of malfunction or poor performance of one of their products.

BTW you are way off base I have no favorite BH and never said I did .I use what works the best for my hunting and am always willing to try a new or proven product.


----------



## sethro02

Sorry for clutter..gonna try to shoot mechanicals tonight


----------



## KMD

shouldernuke, is your avatar in real time???

seth, a webforum without "clutter" would be a wanton wasteland of circle jerking 
I trust a little bit of it won't dilute the overall content of your thread. Clutter, that is...


----------



## TimmyZ7

sethro02 said:


> Sorry for clutter..gonna try to shoot mechanicals tonight


I am interested in this Swhackers performance! Can't wait to see if the results match the 2" model.


----------



## J-Daddy

sethro02 said:


> Sorry for clutter..gonna try to shoot mechanicals tonight


Have you shot any of the Swhackers yet??

sent via a poo flinging monkey!!!


----------



## sethro02

Yep will be interesting


----------



## naturemade

yea, the new 2 inch 100 grain. don't know which page, but almost failed.


----------



## sethro02

Results in my sig..ill look for page


----------



## d_money

I'm just saying Seth u have the most efficient axe 6 out. At #53 u are getting great speed and ke. Keep up the good work. What do u have on your string?


----------



## 0nepin

NTYMADATER said:


> Wish i had a dollar for every time onepin has posted those pictures. LOL. jk
> 
> Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2


Yea you would have like six bucks or something.
Just trying to get an valid point for big mech heads .


----------



## sethro02

Peep and dloop..aftermarket strings..bluff country bowstrings..ive tweeked thos bow to the max


----------



## 0nepin

seiowabow said:


> Do you just have a personal issue with slick tricks or what?
> 
> Sent from my DROID4 using Tapatalk 2


Not at all,I have them and I think they are one of the best fixed heads on the market.as I have said many times befor ,from my time as bowhunter and a blood tracker even on good shot these type of heads sometimes don't leave the easiest blood trails for people to follow.a I think if you have enuff ke/mo you are alot better off shooting a big cutting mech head.by far the most blood trails I'm called to help with the hunter say as was squeezing trigger the deer took a step forward and I hit it a little far back.I don't think the mech head give alot better chance of killing the but it does give a better chance of a fast recovery.if you have enuff bow to be shooting a big mech head with and for me the min is 80ke.


----------



## 0nepin

Gypsy Rover said:


> Lots of clutter on the thread...I wanna see more results!!! checking this thing every 20 minutes or so!
> 
> Kodus to seth...


There are few wise people posting on this thread,it could be worth your time to read some of the clutter.


----------



## Rothhar1

0nepin said:


> There are few wise people posting on this thread,it could be worth your time to read some of the clutter.


Agreed the worst thing any hunter here or in the real world can do is to not investigate the gear options and optimize that gear as much as they can . And the proof out there is available and will always be better than hearsay and conjecture by those who for whatever reason want everyone to shoot exactly what they do until the person other than themselves do and there is an issue that the gear pusher has no real explanation for..


----------



## Michael Myers

0nepin said:


> There are few wise people posting on this thread,it could be worth your time to read some of the clutter.


And a Few not so wise people posting on here as well...Lol.Grizz


----------



## goathollow

102 said:


> Or we could just ask someone who has taken 100's of deer at all kinds of shot angles through all kinds of wound chanels with all types of broadheads what they think?
> 
> What is the purpose of this test?
> 
> Is it about broadhead accuracy?
> Sharpness?
> Blade cut diameter?
> 
> Or do we want to know about how these heads perform on REAL LIVE deer under actual hunting conditions?


I don't know if you are making an attempt at sarcasm or if you are being serious. But if you are being serious please please PLEASE explain to me how you would do a TEST on real live deer? Because, I for one am tired of all the anecdotal information derived from "experienced" hunters.


----------



## TimmyZ7

The "clutter" is no longer an issue since Seth attached a direct link to the spread sheet on his sig! I agree there is years of experience being shared here as well as some others who have thorough knowledge of broadheads such as the steel force rep here. It comes back to people being so set in their ways that they dismiss anything outside their bubble. I appreciate these civil discussions as opposed to the typical back and forth nonsense on other threads.


----------



## goathollow

sethro02 said:


> Phathead 100 is aluminum ferrule..125 grain you can get in steel ferrule I think..chk their website though


Yep, aluminum. But I'm not changing from the Muzzy's because of the aluminum ferrule. I just like the accuracy of the Phathead. I shot Muzzy's for 27 years and they all had aluminum ferrules and I never had one fail or even bend. I did shoot one into a big rock once and it messed up the broadhead pretty bad... but it also killed the rock stone dead (pun intended!!)


----------



## Rothhar1

goathollow said:


> Yep, aluminum. But I'm not changing from the Muzzy's because of the aluminum ferrule. I just like the accuracy. I shot Muzzy's for 27 years and they all had aluminum ferrules and I never had one fail or even bend. I did shoot one into a big rock once and it messed up the broadhead pretty bad...killed the rock stone dead (pun intended!!)


Like many if not all things in the archery world BHs have improved over the years as well .All things being equal I am sure a person could line up as many deer are there are commercial BHs on the market and shoot each one in the heart lung area with one every brand and type and hit the sweet spot at say 10 or 20 yards shot after shot BH after BH and kill every deer in that line without a single BH not doing its job.

That being said there are the real world considerations involved and for hunters who want the best results from their gear and the most reliable results in the best of situations or worst these types of tests and results are the ticket when trying to narrow down what your needs and wants will require of a BH or any gear ..

I wish that All manufactures would send what they make be it bows rests whatever to individuals such as seth or other here who would test each one with the same equipment under the same situation and restrictions it would help countless hunters sift through bad shots ,lots or money and Lost deer/game .And I say that many individuals here could and would test each product throughly and give the results totally unbiased under exactly the same setups and situations..


----------



## dorkbuck33

102 said:


> Or we could just ask someone who has taken 100's of deer at all kinds of shot angles through all kinds of wound chanels with all types of broadheads what they think?
> *Yes you should , use your own judgement*
> What is the purpose of this test?
> 
> Is it about broadhead accuracy?
> Yes
> Sharpness?
> Yes
> Blade cut diameter?
> Yes
> Or do we want to know about how these heads perform on REAL LIVE deer under actual hunting conditions?


*Of course we do , only personal experience or taking the words of others .*

Why ask why and not understand what Seth has done and appreciate his test and compare qualitys or lack of with his testing . Seth is not asking anyone or telling anyone what to shoot only giving his results on his version of a viable facsimile of a tough target. Every broadhead tested has killed critters by someone somewhere . I guess you are one of very few that are confused what this awesome thread has been about. Just have confidence in what you shoot and enjoy hunting and make clean kills.


----------



## goathollow

Shouldernuke! said:


> Like many if not all things in the archery world BHs have improved over the years as well .All things being equal I am sure a person could line up as many deer are there are commercial BHs on the market and shoot each one in the heart lung area with one every brand and type and hit the sweet spot at say 10 or 20 yards shot after shot BH after BH and kill every deer in that line without a single BH not doing its job.
> 
> That being said there are the real world considerations involved and for hunters who want the best results from their gear and the most reliable results in the best of situations or worst these types of tests and results are the ticket when trying to narrow down what your needs and wants will require of a BH or any gear ..
> 
> I wish that All manufactures would send what they make be it bows rests whatever to individuals such as seth or other here who would test each one with the same equipment under the same situation and restrictions it would help countless hunters sift through bad shots ,lots or money and Lost deer/game .And I say that many individuals here could and would test each product throughly and give the results totally unbiased under exactly the same setups and situations..


Did I come across as being critical of Seth? If so, that was sincerely not my intent. I was simply confirming what he stated in his post that the Phathead had an aluminum ferrule...which was in response to an post from you that said changing from Muzzy's (like Thunderheads) with their aluminum ferrules was a good idea. I was only clarifying, that my deicison to change broadheads had nothing to do with the material used to make the ferrules. My comment about shooting the rock was only my poor attempt at humor! No offense was meant toward Seth.


----------



## Rothhar1

goathollow said:


> Did I come across as being critical of Seth? If so, that was sincerely not my intent. I was simply confirming what he stated in his post that the Phathead had an aluminum ferrule...which was in response to an post from you that said changing from Muzzy's (like Thunderheads) with their aluminum ferrules was a good idea. I was only clarifying, that my deicison to change broadheads had nothing to do with the material used to make the ferrules. My comment about shooting the rock was only my poor attempt at humor! No offense was meant toward Seth.


NO not at all I was simply comming along with your post letting others know that there is lots of great info here if people open thier eyes and minds just a little bit !! No its fine your post was spot on and the rock thing was funny.


----------



## 0nepin

Clutter to get it back to page 1


----------



## sethro02

I am severely trying to test tonight


----------



## TimmyZ7

I severely hope you do!


----------



## IndianaPSE

I gotta tell ya, the VPA head sitting there on top of the heap, from my home town of Fort Wayne, I could not resist. So I ordered a pack. 

Even tho it was a gazillion degrees with high humidity today, I shot on my lunch hour. I re-tuned my bow yesterday and low and behold, the 3 pack of VPA Vented 100g heads arrived in the mail as I ate lunch (I work from home). 

So I took my new Elite, 3 arrows w/FT and 1 w/BH. 

Shot three FP at 20, and then the BH = SNIPE! An X. Repeated FP at 30y, then the BH, SNIPE! Another X! Once more at 40y. Ditto!!!

3 minutes touchup on a stone 3 on cardboard. Cutting arm hair. 

In my quiver for hunting. READY!!!

Labeled: 12.1, 12.2, and 12.3. I label all my hunting arrows.

I feel sorry for three deer this year.

Thanks Sethro


----------



## sethro02

Nice indiana pse! They are solid solid solid!


----------



## Bones816

Don't you mean "IndianaElite"?!


----------



## snoman4

Seth are you going to try the all steel Phathead 145's? My wife shoots them out of her xbow and I am thinking of trying them instead of the steelforce 100's for my Invasion to get a little more FOC.


----------



## born2shoot3

Whats the line up if you test tonight for mechs


----------



## KMD

here's a couple linkys for shouldernuke to get read up on...
Knowledge aquired during nearly three decades of broadhead research, steeped in Physics and the Scientific Method of testing

Linky poo #1

Linky poo #2
Contained is this this linky, from which my post above was basically a summation

Even more comphrensive Linky poo, containing more linky poos!

Feel free to refute whatever you could comprehend from the above massive collection of sound & tested data and information. OR don't...


----------



## Rothhar1

KMD said:


> here's a couple linkys for shouldernuke to get read up on...
> Knowledge aquired during nearly three decades of broadhead research, steeped in Physics and the Scientific Method of testing
> 
> Linky poo #1
> 
> Linky poo #2
> Contained is this this linky, from which my post above was basically a summation
> 
> Even more comphrensive Linky poo, containing more linky poos!
> 
> Feel free to refute whatever you could comprehend from the above massive collection of sound & tested data and information. OR don't...


Let it go and move on man really you are reaching a bunch here to prove a point that you can not prove just more conjecture and theroies.Testing on animals is inconsistant at best and all shots have to be duplicated to be of real use .. Second/I know all about the kinetics and momentum behind arrow penatration.

BTW x2 you posted nothing here I have not read or posted here before. But your blood wound theory is not backed up by any of this sir.Also all links you sent were by Ashby not into much shopping are you ?? HERE let me help you instead of all them links by one guy here is the same report in one site --- http://www.tradgang.com/ashby/

Here is one from someone compleatly different and it is clear its theories if you read and comprehend it ''

http://bowsite.com/bowsite/features/practical_bowhunter/penetration/


----------



## sethro02

no i will probably not shoot the 145's unless steelforce sends them...i can ask


----------



## sethro02

their will be a test...posting in a couple of minutes


----------



## sethro02

here we go! Round 9 Mechanicals! Make your predictions! I know I would but I dont want you to think I'm rigging it!
1. schwaker 1.75"
2. sonoran 3 blade
3. epek 3 blade


----------



## 0nepin

I really don't know but I'm going with the swhacker.I have never even seen the others.I think the fat ferrule will hold the epek back.


----------



## TimmyZ7

I think the Sonoran will do better then the epek. The single bevel entry blades of the Swhacker should bust through the wood better then the other two though. The ferrule integrity is what I am looking forward to seeing.


----------



## Porkrind

Epek


----------



## Bones816

Porkrind said:


> Epek


No chance. Schwacker.


----------



## huntnFiend

Real interested in how the epek does. Bought some a year or two ago but for some reason never put it in the quiver.


----------



## TimmyZ7

Man there is some money to be made on this thread, lol.


----------



## Michael Myers

Middle one in the Pic,Dont even know its name and it doesnt matter,It looks the Best...Grizz


----------



## Fortyneck

I'll guess in this case less blades = more penetration, so swacker.


----------



## Bigbuck5

that epek looks sketchy man. I dont know how those blades open, but if they didnt or failed somehow, that would be like trying to point a field point through the vitals haha Ill root for the underdog though!


----------



## sethro02

i'll first start by saying...my wife helped with pics she kinda forgot to take a couple different angles...anyways...this may be the most DAMAGE in one test...here we go


----------



## born2shoot3

They fold back,almost impossible for them not to fold back


Bigbuck5 said:


> that epek looks sketchy man. I dont know how those blades open, but if they didnt or failed somehow, that would be like trying to point a field point through the vitals haha Ill root for the underdog though!


----------



## sethro02

schwaker 1.75" test results:
1.75" cut surface. or 1.75" cut diamter

penetration- 8 ( yes i said 8! 1 less inch than the 2 inch cut head...)
durability- 2 ( ferrule caved in, blades bent)
dependability- 5
sharp before- 4
sharp after- 3
flight- 5
total score- 27 out of 35 (total penetration, 8")


----------



## TimmyZ7

Yeah I bet the whole ferrule folds back


----------



## sethro02

schwaker 1.75


----------



## sethro02

^^^^like i said, the wife helped with pics


----------



## sethro02

schwaker 1.75 gel exit


----------



## sethro02

schwaker 1.75 gel entry


----------



## WV-MTNEER

Awesome thread!


----------



## sethro02

schwaker 1.75 damage, caved in ferrule...and this wasnt a steel drum test?!


----------



## 206Moose

Shouldernuke! said:


> Let it go and move on man really you are reaching a bunch here to prove a point that you can not prove just more conjecture and theroies.Testing on animals is inconsistant at best and all shots have to be duplicated to be of real use .. Second/I know all about the kinetics and momentum behind arrow penatration.
> 
> BTW x2 you posted nothing here I have not read or posted here before. But your blood wound theory is not backed up by any of this sir.Also all links you sent were by Ashby not into much shopping are you ?? HERE let me help you instead of all them links by one guy here is the same report in one site --- http://www.tradgang.com/ashby/
> 
> Here is one from someone compleatly different and it is clear its theories if you read and comprehend it ''
> 
> http://bowsite.com/bowsite/features/practical_bowhunter/penetration/


What head would be considered "single blade" from the graphs?


----------



## sethro02

Sonoran 3 blade test results:
2.75" total cut surface, or 1.25'' cut diamter

penetration- 8
durability- 4 ( blades slightly bent, takes a bit to get closed back)
dependability- 5
sharp before- 4
sharp after- 3
flight- 5
total score- 29 out of 35 ( total penetration, 8")

had to take the arrow out for you to see the slits,,,sonoran


----------



## NoDeerInIowa

Nice that the wife is helping you with this round. Thanks for all your work on this.

Sent from my PC36100 using Tapatalk 2


----------



## sethro02

sonoran 3 blade ( plese not this head is suppose to open once in the body cavity)


----------



## Rothhar1

NTYMADATER said:


> What head would be considered "single blade" from the graphs?


Something like a silverflame,or magnus buzzcut i beileve all blade basicly .


----------



## sethro02

sonoran 3 blade gel exit


----------



## Rothhar1

sethro02 said:


> schwaker 1.75 damage, caved in ferrule...and this wasnt a steel drum test?!
> 
> View attachment 1422100


I would of given that a 1 durability seth !!lol you are more leaniant than me !!


----------



## IndianaPSE

FUNNY - I opened the account on AT years ago when I had a PSE, and it won't let you edit your original name. 

Or can you and I just don't kno how?



Bones816 said:


> Don't you mean "IndianaElite"?!


----------



## sethro02

epek test results: Watch your eyes, parts are flying!
total cut surface 2.75" cut diamter, 1.75"

penetration- 7
durability- 0 FAIL
dependability- 4 ( if you get a fail on durability, then you cannot get a 5 on dependability,,i have treated every broken head this way)
sharp before- 4
sharp after- 3
flight- 5
total score- 23 out of 35 (total penetration, 7")


----------



## TimmyZ7

That entry on the Swhacker was pathetic and typical even on game in my experience with them. Again I have moved on and this helps reaffirm my decision.


----------



## sethro02

epek gel


----------



## sethro02

^^^there are 3 slices in this pic it was just hard to keep it pulled apart


----------



## sethro02

Round 9 mechanicals aftermath.........thank you epek for trashing my axis arrow!!!


----------



## sethro02

A special thanks to my wife/assistant for helping out tonight, because if she wasnt so cool i wouldnt be doing this thread. no rude comments or i will hunt you down j/k....not really!


----------



## 0nepin

Shouldernuke! said:


> I would of given that a 1 durability seth !!lol you are more leaniant than me !!


I would of given it a 0 because it cannot be reused .some head got a 0 because the tip of the blade broke but the ferrule was fine.and it uses replaceable blades.Atleast Ray charles out scored the epek.


----------



## 0nepin

Sethro you are a lucky man bro.


----------



## sethro02

thansk,,,,yea it should be zero i was too nice about the 2" so i had to follow suit.


----------



## TimmyZ7

So the epek is officially renamed the shrapnel head.


----------



## Rothhar1

sethro02 said:


> A special thanks to my wife/assistant for helping out tonight, because if she wasnt so cool i wouldnt be doing this thread. no rude comments or i will hunt you down j/k....not really!
> View attachment 1422119


Lovely woman shes a keeper congrats seth .


----------



## Rothhar1

0nepin said:


> I would of given it a 0 because it cannot be reused .some head got a 0 because the tip of the blade broke but the ferrule was fine.and it uses replaceable blades.Atleast Ray charles out scored the epek.


true that only reason i gave a 1 was it stayed together sort of.


----------



## Kb83

manboy said:


> a little tender are we......just saying for you 60# may work.....but for 800# elk, moose...you might want a little more...


I shoot 63# and I wouldnt hesitate to hunt elk with it. Planning on hunting bear with it next spring. Producing right around 70KE. Bear, moose and elk are killed all the time with 60# or less. Has no problem pinching dirt on the other side of a big bodied Michigan whitetail.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk.


----------



## sethro02

Will score it a 2 but we really know what it should have been


----------



## Michael Myers

Kb83 said:


> I shoot 63# and I wouldnt hesitate to hunt elk with it. Planning on hunting bear with it next spring. Producing right around 70KE. Bear, moose and elk are killed all the time with 60# or less. Has no problem pinching dirt on the other side of a big bodied Michigan whitetail.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk.


You can hunt Black bears with 50 lBs Bow all day any day of the week,Moose or Elk can be Killed with 60 Lbs Bows anyday of the week...Grizz.


----------



## basnbuks

Wow ive missed alot jus got back from bahamas so no cell . I will catch up later but i have seen alotta pissin matches have accumulated. My vpa heads were here when i got home so after i unpacked i played a lil.

Out of the pack sharpness was not what i was expecting, some guys would think it good but wasnt sharp enuff to be placed in quiver. 5 strokes on a hone steel and she was scary sharp, shot it with 3 fp out to 30 and they was all together. Very well made head and will be my choice if i shoot a fixed, just cant decide, i like them bug blood trails.


Sent across the ocean in a beer bottle


----------



## MT Stringmusic

Anyone sending you a Simmons Shark?


----------



## sethro02

Nobody is sending a simmons..you are the first to mention


----------



## jhauser

any grim reaper hades seth?. awesome work man


----------



## mt hunter22

Once again great work and tell your beautiful wife thank you for her time and your time..


----------



## weekender7

Seth you are a bow hunter, but you married a BOONE & CROCKET. You sir are a very lucky man. Treat her well, very well.


----------



## Super 91

sethro02 said:


> super 91 in my opinion its worth buying the shuttle t or terminal t just to see how quiet they are!


Yeah, I got some of each coming in to play. I'm having a hard time not shooting the Ulmer Edge though!


----------



## matt3

Real quick on blood as a lubricant.... Seems to get sticky to me. Friction and blood are not your friends. Just think things through a bit. Get blood on your hand close your hand does it stick together or no? Not going to get personal it's a family site but it does not act like a lubricant.


----------



## Buckbadger

sethro02 said:


> ..next test will be 50ish yds...and yes a well tuned bow is a good thing


If you do this test, I'll make my prediction now. If the test will be for long range accuracy, noise, and penetration, I honestly can't see any head beating the Shuttle Black Op's? Would least be surprised if it isn't in the top 2 anyways, but think it will be the one to beat? One I know this head is very accurate long range, and whisper quiet, and it also penetrated the deepest so far at 20, so I'd have to believe it would be the deepest at long range also? And if noise level is a big factor all vented heads will be at a disadvantage right from the beginning as they tend to whistle. I'll call it now TT Black Op's.


----------



## Buckbadger

sethro02 said:


> schwaker 1.75 damage, caved in ferrule...and this wasnt a steel drum test?!
> 
> View attachment 1422100


Didn't even have to shoot that one, you called it before it happen.


----------



## seiowabow

What the Schwaker failed?! Doesn't Micheal Waddell use those? Impossible!

Sent from my DROID4 using Tapatalk 2


----------



## sethro02

the long range test will most likely be based on noise, accuracy, bow noise, and penetration...but not broadhead penetration so to speak...arrow penetration. i may take the top performing/ penetrating broadheads and put them on a light, medium, and heavy arrow to just see the difference. I understand each broadhead will be different. But to shoot that many heads would take so long. So for example: shoot the shuttle T on 3 different arrows, light to heavy and compare the difference. this is not set in stone yet.


----------



## Make It Happen

Just saying for you tinkerers, I put BP Gators blades on a rage 2 blade and they fit perfectly. What i liked was the blades were set further back on the head.


----------



## Super 91

Show us a Frankenpic! Or it didn't happen.......lol


----------



## Ned250

Spreadsheet updated with last night's shrapnel display - https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AgJEvQwzfDRZdGxzdC15R0JIZDJGQ1J4bVpGV1pTWHc


----------



## sethro02

Thx ned250


----------



## sethro02

Ulmer edge prototype should be here anyday!


----------



## Norwegian Woods

sethro02 said:


> Ulmer edge prototype should be here anyday!


Looking forward to that test 

Is this the Stainless version or another one?


----------



## 0nepin

Make It Happen said:


> Just saying for you tinkerers, I put BP Gators blades on a rage 2 blade and they fit perfectly. What i liked was the blades were set further back on the head.


What's the benefit ?the two ferrule look very similar .I have put the bp gator blades on the gravedigger ferrule .they gave already great head the benefit of rear deplory for those that perferr it .There are pic in the franken head thread and the grave digger thread in the broadhead subforum.


----------



## sethro02

Stainlsss ulmer


----------



## BRUKSHOT

sethro02 said:


> the long range test will most likely be based on noise, accuracy, bow noise, and penetration...but not broadhead penetration so to speak...arrow penetration. i may take the top performing/ penetrating broadheads and put them on a light, medium, and heavy arrow to just see the difference. I understand each broadhead will be different. But to shoot that many heads would take so long. So for example: shoot the shuttle T on 3 different arrows, light to heavy and compare the difference. this is not set in stone yet.


Sethro...If you are going to do a test on noise, you should use the quietest vane out there. I think the Aerovane II's are the least noisy, but they put a lot of spin on the arrow so some broadheads with a lot of blade surface may not fly as well. I use the Aerovane II's myself, and they are pretty much silent in flight.


----------



## KMD

Shouldernuke! said:


> Let it go and move on man really you are reaching a bunch here to prove a point that you can not prove just more conjecture and theroies.Testing on animals is inconsistant at best and all shots have to be duplicated to be of real use .. Second/I know all about the kinetics and momentum behind arrow penatration.
> 
> BTW x2 you posted nothing here I have not read or posted here before. But your blood wound theory is not backed up by any of this sir.Also all links you sent were by Ashby not into much shopping are you ?? HERE let me help you instead of all them links by one guy here is the same report in one site --- http://www.tradgang.com/ashby/
> 
> Here is one from someone compleatly different and it is clear its theories if you read and comprehend it ''
> 
> http://bowsite.com/bowsite/features/practical_bowhunter/penetration/


LOL!
a mere 10 minutes to reply...you must read REALLY fast!

Instead of going 'tit for tat' in an attempt to save face, why don't you introduce some tangible information to refute my post that you intially responded negatively to?
Again, my post was basically a summation of Dr. Ashby's research, so are you discounting THAT info I shared???
Heck ,you even provided a link yourself, do you consider THAT "conjecture"?


Instead of trying to 'win' a battle of wits with someone you don't know over the interweb, how 'bout you share something of possible value to everyone following the 'clutter'. Or, are you too focused on getting the last word in and feeling good about yourself???
I reckon with 6200+ posts here, you must be right ALL the time, LOL! One would think basic spelling & sentence structure would have improved with all that practice? (just a theory  )

GO ahead, you can have the last word, so ask not to continue mucking up the muck  I'll go back to reading along in the background.
Sorry for trying to introduce another way of looking at things into an otherwise thought provoking & informative thread. 
It's obvious that you are 100% spot on with eveything you type, so we can stop asking questions and sharing opinions since you obviously know everything...

Thanks for sharing your versed expertise in all things broadhead/arrow related to everything in the Universe.

Rock on, seth...


----------



## sethro02

Im prob ably just going to use whats on my arrows then shoot a fp first...write down noise level and then measure the other heads from that...not set on bh noise testthough...


----------



## ORROSS334

Let's see a Pheonix from Red Feather Archery.......between them and VPA it is hard for me to tell the difference...oh and Sethro thanks again for taking this on


----------



## Whitey375

sethro02 said:


> Round 9 mechanicals aftermath.........thank you epek for trashing my axis arrow!!!
> View attachment 1422115


Something eerily similar happened to my FMJ's last year. Sucks.


----------



## goathollow

matt3 said:


> Real quick on blood as a lubricant.... Seems to get sticky to me. Friction and blood are not your friends. Just think things through a bit. Get blood on your hand close your hand does it stick together or no? Not going to get personal it's a family site but it does not act like a lubricant.


I have to respectfully disagree. Yes, blood does get sticky as it is exposed to air and begins to dry (just a W.A.G. but its clotting charateristics may play in to the sticky feeling). But, think about how slippery the entrails are when you first open the deer to field dress it. The are hard to get a grip on to pull out. I don't know if its just the blood or other body fluids creating the slipperyness but something makes the inside a deer slippery. In the fraction of a second that it takes a broadhead and arrow to enter (and maybe) exit, it seems to me they are being lubricated.


----------



## Kb83

goathollow said:


> I have to respectfully disagree. Yes, blood does get sticky as it is exposed to air and begins to dry (just a W.A.G. but its clotting charateristics may play in to the sticky feeling). But, think about how slippery the entrails are when you first open the deer to field dress it. The are hard to get a grip on to pull out. I don't know if its just the blood or other body fluids creating the slipperyness but something makes the inside a deer slippery. In the fraction of a second that it takes a broadhead and arrow to enter (and maybe) exit, it seems to me they are being lubricated.


I just put a small amount of KY jelly on my arrows. I get the KY his and hers that way I have it all covered. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk.


----------



## goathollow

KMD said:


> LOL!
> a mere 10 minutes to reply...you must read REALLY fast!
> 
> Instead of going 'tit for tat' in an attempt to save face, why don't you introduce some tangible information to refute my post that you intially responded negatively to?
> Again, my post was basically a summation of Dr. Ashby's research, so are you discounting THAT info I shared???
> Heck ,you even provided a link yourself, do you consider THAT "conjecture"?
> 
> Instead of trying to 'win' a battle of wits with someone you don't know over the interweb, how 'bout you share something of possible value to everyone following the 'clutter'. Or, are you too focused on getting the last word in and feeling good about yourself???
> I reckon with 6200+ posts here, you must be right ALL the time, LOL! One would think basic spelling & sentence structure would have improved with all that practice? (just a theory  )
> 
> GO ahead, you can have the last word, so ask not to continue mucking up the muck  I'll go back to reading along in the background.
> Sorry for trying to introduce another way of looking at things into an otherwise thought provoking & informative thread.
> 
> It's obvious that you are 100% spot on with eveything you type, so we can stop asking questions and sharing opinions since you obviously know everything...
> 
> Thanks for sharing your versed expertise in all things broadhead/arrow related to everything in the Universe.
> 
> Rock on, seth...


Now boys....are we going to have to seperate you two :wink:

While I am vaguely familar with Dr. Ashby's findings I have to admit :embara: that I've not read his published works. However, now that I've had a taste of them I think I will. I find that kind of stuff facinating, albeit about a foot over my head. Frankly at first blush, I think KMD and Shouldernuke are both a little right and a little wrong...but that's just my opinion. I absolutely don't think Dr. Ashby's testing renders Seth's testing irrelevant and vise versa. In fact I don't think the premise for the two tests are even close to the same. At the same time, some of Dr. Ashby's findings, especially his discussion of the physics of arrow flight/penetration etc may provide some insight to some of Seth's test results (i.e. why some broadheads penetrated better than others). 

If we agree that they are not intended to test the same things, maybe we can simply agree that the asteemed Dr. Ashby's results/studies are quite relevant as are Seth's results.


----------



## c_rob04

Any way we could get a full update on all the heads that have been tested with results?? This is the best thread I have ever had the privilege of reading. Thanks Seth!!


----------



## goathollow

c_rob04 said:


> Any way we could get a full update on all the heads that have been tested with results?? This is the best thread I have ever had the privilege of reading. Thanks Seth!!


See the link in Seth's signature; it will take you to a spreadsheet where all the results are tallied.


----------



## Michael Myers

Some people talk just to hear themselves or i guess in this Case just to see there Posts...Great Job Seth with this Test!!!,There seems to be a Few on here who Know everything and It's the Only way...Each to there own...Grizz


----------



## deadquiet

The only problem with this thread is its 92 pages.......and most of it is worthless stuff like "cool", "OK" , "Nice" etc..........so I guess its possible to get too much "buzz" because I couldn't get to the facts because there was too much junk clogging things up....lol. Maybe you could take the "good" stuff and post the results.


----------



## manboy

Buckbadger said:


> If you do this test, I'll make my prediction now. If the test will be for long range accuracy, noise, and penetration, I honestly can't see any head beating the Shuttle Black Op's? Would least be surprised if it isn't in the top 2 anyways, but think it will be the one to beat? One I know this head is very accurate long range, and whisper quiet, and it also penetrated the deepest so far at 20, so I'd have to believe it would be the deepest at long range also? And if noise level is a big factor all vented heads will be at a disadvantage right from the beginning as they tend to whistle. I'll call it now TT Black Op's.


 if penetration mattered in the last test as it should have, shuttle T would be #1.........i agree 100% with u at 50 yard test


----------



## manboy

sethro02 said:


> schwaker 1.75 damage, caved in ferrule...and this wasnt a steel drum test?!
> 
> View attachment 1422100


i told u the 100grain are junk,,,total differance compared to 125grains.


----------



## BigGarr

Kb83 said:


> I just put a small amount of KY jelly on my arrows. I get the KY his and hers that way I have it all covered.


i know your kidding but thats too funny!!


----------



## Michael Myers

deadquiet said:


> The only problem with this thread is its 92 pages.......and most of it is worthless stuff like "cool", "OK" , "Nice" etc..........so I guess its possible to get too much "buzz" because I couldn't get to the facts because there was too much junk clogging things up....lol. Maybe you could take the "good" stuff and post the results.


https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/...GV1pTWHc#gid=0 There you go.....


----------



## Bowhuntr64

sethro02 said:


> the long range test will most likely be based on noise, accuracy, bow noise, and penetration...but not broadhead penetration so to speak...arrow penetration. i may take the top performing/ penetrating broadheads and put them on a light, medium, and heavy arrow to just see the difference. I understand each broadhead will be different. But to shoot that many heads would take so long. So for example: shoot the shuttle T on 3 different arrows, light to heavy and compare the difference. this is not set in stone yet.


Sounds great. Would you consider adding "total cutting diameter" to the formula? (e.g. Slick Trick Standard would be 2" because of a 1" diameter and four blades). Of course the smaller heads will fly better and penetrate deeper, and they should be so rewarded...but they don't cut as much as some others, so they should lose "points" based on that. I am always searching for the best penetrating, best flying, most durable and "biggest hole cutting" broadhead I can find. It is that balance of all those factors that makes a head successful. Any rating system that does not incorporate and factor in all of those dynamics is going to be imbalanced and incomplete.


----------



## mt hunter22

results are posted in Seths sig.


----------



## Grigorio

Seth: Will you be including the Solid Broadhead Company's S30V broadhead in your testing? It could be very strong competion to the VPA currently at #1.
Link to website: http://solid-broadheads.com/products/
The videos are pretty impressive IMHO.


----------



## sethro02

Like I said on future test..it may not be about the broadhead itself but rather the weight of the arrow at long distance...results in sig


----------



## sethro02

They were suppose to but have not heard fron solid


----------



## Norwegian Woods

sethro02 said:


> Stainlsss ulmer


Now we are talking 
This is the mech I am waiting for:thumbs_up


----------



## sethro02

The version he is sending is deep six with injexion shaft


----------



## gdouty

I get the feeling that Swhacker reps are going to keep quiet and pretend they never knew of this test...The evidence against their promotion is so substantial here. 

I still think the broadhead is deadly, it did deploy inside the gel as advertised, and it did leave a large exit hole, but so did other mechanicals and they did not fold up like a cheap lawn chair...what is most scary about what this test reveals is that if you do not get a passthrough, you may not have much of a bloodtrail at all. 

Solution: If the Gravedigger flies consistent out to 50 yards, I am going to fill my quiver with them...


----------



## goathollow

deadquiet said:


> The only problem with this thread is its 92 pages.......and most of it is worthless stuff like "cool", "OK" , "Nice" etc..........so I guess its possible to get too much "buzz" because I couldn't get to the facts because there was too much junk clogging things up....lol. Maybe you could take the "good" stuff and post the results.


Results are in spreadsheet accessible in the link on the OP's signature.


----------



## sethro02

I wish I could have been there for schwaker infomercial


----------



## GarrickTX

You think maybe it is the angle/vibration of the arrow that is crushing the shwacker? Idk just typing as I think, because it doesnt have a post in the middle of the ferul, like the rage for example, thats a weak spot. So if the arrow hits at a slight angle against the wood its natural reaction is to straighten out. Maybe with the length of the arrow behind it would bend it into itself?? I think I worded that right. Say if you shot it into a metal drum, it probably wouldn't do that do to the characteristics of metal vs wood. It would probably be different with bone too, so don't rule out the shwacker completely. I personally don't use them, just befuddled as to the way it caved in on itself


----------



## Rothhar1

GarrickTX said:


> You think maybe it is the angle/vibration of the arrow that is crushing the shwacker? Idk just typing as I think, because it doesnt have a post in the middle of the ferul, like the rage for example, thats a weak spot. So if the arrow hits at a slight angle against the wood its natural reaction is to straighten out. Maybe with the length of the arrow behind it would bend it into itself?? I think I worded that right. Say if you shot it into a metal drum, it probably wouldn't do that do to the characteristics of metal vs wood. It would probably be different with bone too, so don't rule out the shwacker completely. I personally don't use them, just befuddled as to the way it caved in on itself


If that were the case all the heads would be damaged that were made of aluminum.


----------



## sethro02

Wood didnt flex..when it hit wood it didnt bust it out of the way it just lodged itself in the wood and crushed it...i think it did well on a steel drum because the metal bent out of the way..i would love to see what would happen to it on a DIRECT shouldsr hit


----------



## roughneck1

gdouty said:


> Solution: If the Gravedigger flies consistent out to 50 yards, I am going to fill my quiver with them...


I've never heard of these heads until I seen this thread. I'll also be filling my quiver with Grave Diggers this season.


----------



## GarrickTX

sethro02 said:


> Wood didnt flex..when it hit wood it didnt bust it out of the way it just lodged itself in the wood and crushed it...i think it did well on a steel drum because the metal bent out of the way..i would love to see what would happen to it on a DIRECT shouldsr hit


That was my basic point... you just said it better. Shoulder nuke, I don't think it did it to the other aluminu feruls because they were better supported structurally. The Shwacker has a pretty significant weak point.


----------



## 0nepin

Norwegian Woods said:


> Now we are talking
> This is the mech I am waiting for:thumbs_up


You can keep the stainless , I will wait for the titanium!!!!


----------



## eltaco

Steve Speck (Solid Broadheads) is out of town, but said he'd gladly send one in foe testing when he returns.

I just received my 100gr heads yesterday... these are some impressive looking broadheads!


----------



## TimmyZ7

*This was my experience with it through a doe shoulder...*



sethro02 said:


> Wood didnt flex..when it hit wood it didnt bust it out of the way it just lodged itself in the wood and crushed it...i think it did well on a steel drum because the metal bent out of the way..*i would love to see what would happen to it on a DIRECT shouldsr hit*


I will say it didn't bend the ferrule or destroy the broadhead but like I said in my buddies case it did. I am no longer shooting them but that decision was made before this test. I don't care for the entry holes and when you plug it in with the arrow in the event there is not a pass through it makes for a piss poor blood trail! I cant even hardly find the entry in this pic although it was a quartering shot and I can recall where it hit. But again, this is what I am talking about.


----------



## Kstigall

sethro02 said:


> I wish I could have been there for schwaker infomercial





sethro02 said:


> Wood didnt flex..when it hit wood it didnt bust it out of the way it just lodged itself in the wood and crushed it...i think it did well on a steel drum because the metal bent out of the way..i would love to see what would happen to it on a DIRECT shouldsr hit





GarrickTX said:


> You think maybe it is the angle/vibration of the arrow that is crushing the shwacker? Idk just typing as I think, because it doesnt have a post in the middle of the ferul, like the rage for example, thats a weak spot. So if the arrow hits at a slight angle against the wood its natural reaction is to straighten out. Maybe with the length of the arrow behind it would bend it into itself?? I think I worded that right. Say if you shot it into a metal drum, it probably wouldn't do that do to the characteristics of metal vs wood. It would probably be different with bone too, so don't rule out the shwacker completely. I personally don't use them, just befuddled as to the way it caved in on itself


The Schwacker infomercial I saw had been edited and there was evidence of other hanky panky going on! They may have shot a dozen heads until one survived. It's one of the few heads that when I looked at it I thought, "this is not a good design".


----------



## sethro02

Wow thats interesting...i knew it would have a small entry but geez!


----------



## sethro02

Yea thats why I wanted to shoot one for myself


----------



## pinski79

0nepin said:


> You can keep the stainless , I will wait for the titanium!!!!


word


----------



## TimmyZ7

sethro02 said:


> Wow thats interesting...i knew it would have a small entry but geez!


Fill it in with an arrow and imagine no pass through. Could you imagine the bloodtrail or lack there of! Most of the entry wound photos I see are zoomed all the way in but never shown from a distance.


----------



## 0nepin

Nice doe timmz7,I don't think you will a have problem finding the entry hole with the ragedigger.remember the ragedigger is 124gr or cancovert it to a ray charles by changing the leading blade to one that fit the extreme and that only weights 106gr.


----------



## GarrickTX

onepin have you considered doing online sales???? LOL I mean no offense at all so don't take it wrong, but you have been advertising these frankenheads from the begining. Do you sell them, or do you promote creating them? Just curious and not trying to fight about it either


----------



## TimmyZ7

0nepin said:


> Nice doe timmz7,I don't think you will a have problem finding the entry hole with the ragedigger.remember the ragedigger is 124gr or cancovert it to a ray charles by changing the leading blade to one that fit the extreme and that only weights 106gr.


Thanks bud, I will be posting pics of that carnage for sure!


----------



## 0nepin

GarrickTX said:


> onepin have you considered doing online sales???? LOL I mean no offense at all so don't take it wrong, but you have been advertising these frankenheads from the begining. Do you sell them, or do you promote creating them? Just curious and not trying to fight about it either


No I don't sale them ,I have gave a few away to some good people.I'm really just trying to get the idea out there that you don't have to shoot heads the way the come from manufacture,we Can customize them to work with our setup better.nobody really make a head to take advantage of the ke/mo that's some of us have.


----------



## Bigbuck5

0nepin said:


> No I don't sale them ,I have gave a few away to some good people.I'm really just trying to get the idea out there that you don't have to shoot heads the way the come from manufacture,we Can customize them to work with our setup better.nobody really make a head to take advantage of the ke/mo that's some of us have.


Let me know when you do!!!


----------



## GarrickTX

0nepin said:


> No I don't sale them ,I have gave a few away to some good people.I'm really just trying to get the idea out there that you don't have to shoot heads the way the come from manufacture,we Can customize them to work with our setup better.nobody really make a head to take advantage of the ke/mo that's some of us have.


Understood, and a good word to spread. But I bet you could make a pretty penny "modifying" (as to avoid copyright infringement) archer's broadheads if you chose to do so.. and have a pretty good marketing tool right here. But back to the BHs, how much ke would you suggest to shoot the rage digger?


----------



## sethro02

I would think if you sold them then their would be a lawsuit but you could be a fabricator!...onepin coming soon....coc ulmer edge!


----------



## 0nepin

GarrickTX said:


> Understood, and a good word to spread. But I bet you could make a pretty penny "modifying" (as to avoid copyright infringement) archer's broadheads if you chose to do so.. and have a pretty good marketing tool right here. But back to the BHs, how much ke would you suggest to shoot the rage digger?


If you can get 80ke with an arrow around 400gr you will never have a problem .you don't need that much but that what I recommend .


----------



## 0nepin

sethro02 said:


> I would think if you sold them then their would be a lawsuit but you could be a fabricator!...onepin coming soon....coc ulmer edge!


Post the pic when it's done.


----------



## sethro02

Wife said their is mail!


----------



## $bowhunter$

has the NAP hellrazor been tested? ive went through 40 pages but cant seem to find it


----------



## Michael Myers

$bowhunter$ said:


> has the NAP hellrazor been tested? ive went through 40 pages but cant seem to find it


Check here dude.....https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/...GV1pTWHc#gid=0


----------



## sethro02

Never tested hellrazor...i would think it would perform like montec and snuffer


----------



## 0nepin

GarrickTX said:


> Understood, and a good word to spread. But I bet you could make a pretty penny "modifying" (as to avoid copyright infringement) archer's broadheads if you chose to do so.. and have a pretty good marketing tool right here. But back to the BHs, how much ke would you suggest to shoot the rage digger?


You would not believe how many people have asked to buy them but I have told everybody no,but I will build some for people with there parts.I think were about to see a new era in broad heads , I think once people post up the pic of the massive blood trail and tell the cool storys ,then some of the manufacture will tap into this market.I did this to feel my own needs and think there alot other people with the same needs.I can't remember the last I was this excited about killing a doe on opening day.


----------



## bowhunter727

With the KE most bows are putting out nowadays i can easaly see getting pass through with a 3" cut


----------



## 0nepin

bowhunter727 said:


> With the KE most bows are putting out nowadays i can easaly see getting pass through with a 3" cut


P
I'm
I agree 100% and I think it's going to catch on soon


----------



## sethro02

Onepin did you say you were sending anything else I cant remember..u dont have to I was just curious


----------



## Rothhar1

bowhunter727 said:


> With the KE most bows are putting out nowadays i can easaly see getting pass through with a 3" cut


But the problem is that most those bows produce that kind of KE /momentum with the heavy limbs at 70 or more pounds .Many think that they are getting great KE out of say50 or 60 # bow but once the real speed they are shooting not the "supposed speed "and the weight of the arrow is plugged into a ballistic calculator they are no where near the Moment /ke they think .Lets face it KE means little without great Momentum and that only comes from heavier arrows and usually heavier draw weight along with it .

IMHO too many perfectly health strong bowhunters sorry but for lack of better wording 'wimp" out on draw weight when in fact they could shoot much much more poundage easily and most with just minimal practice comfortably and really optimize their bow and arrow combos in most hunting situations . I beleive that most huntes need to get thier head on strait in this area .There are way way too many my arrow did not go deep or i lost a deer threads foer this not to be true ,especially if they are hitting these deer decently broadside as they say they are .
I think our society has become just a little on the soft side and hunting and hunters are no different in that regard . 

Its become too easy to be average and accept mediocraty today that inclues our equipment we use for many different reasons most not good ones . I attribute it to the "everyone gets a ribbon" generation that never really worked hard to win or excel at whatever they did when they were young because they still got medals and trophies.They never lost since ther were no winners or loosers most of thier lives and when it got rel they bailed out of whatever sport they were in in most cases, so the fact they loose deer on bad shots or poor equipment choices could not be thier problem or issue .

Sorry if that seems critical but it ws meant to be an indictment on many copout hunters and thier girlish equipment choices I know lots of women who shoot more poundage well than may fully capable men and that is sad .


----------



## Rothhar1

I know that what I just posted will not be popular with many here but so be it sometimes its hard to say or hear the truth ! Am I insensitive ?? Sure I can be but honest is important and most people now days can not handle the truth since they were stroked all thier young lives. I can not stand political correctness its cheapens our words and makes us less of a individual .


----------



## 0nepin

I agree with you shouldernuke! But there is alot of us shooting fast and heavy arrow and thats who these heads are intended for .I mean why would I shoot a 1" cut fixed head with 123lb ke when all doing releasing wasted energy in the dirt.I really like shooting heavy draw weight so I should use a more appropriate broadhead for my setup.


----------



## 0nepin

sethro02 said:


> Onepin did you say you were sending anything else I cant remember..u dont have to I was just curious


No because there was a few jackwagen complaining about it.I must of gotten 15 negative pm and had to add a few more people to my ignore list.atleast utgrad has some company now lol.let me know when you want to do a franken head show down .this could be very entertaining!!!


----------



## Michael Myers

0nepin said:


> No because there was a few jackwagen complaining about it.I must of gotten 15 negative pm and had to add a few more people to my ignore list.atleast utgrad has some company now lol.let me know when you want to do a franken head show down .this could be very entertaining!!!


Utgrad is a Celebrity,He must sleep with his reapers under his pillow,I Sleep with mine tattoed on my right arm...Lol.Grizz


----------



## sethro02

haha ok onepin....And now I present to you......................


----------



## k&j8

roughneck1 said:


> I've never heard of these heads until I seen this thread. I'll also be filling my quiver with Grave Diggers this season.


I read in another thread that there is a chisel or trocar tip version of the Grave Digger coming out this fall?? I would love to see how that would do in this test. I bet the Ulmer Edge would have company in the total pass through catagory!!


----------



## sethro02

Trophy Taker Ulmer Edge ALL STEEL Prototype!!!! this is the deep six version and will be shot with an easton injexion arrow 28" long, 330 spine...total weight 437 grains. THIS TEST DOES NOT COUNT TOWARDS THE OFFICIAL THREAD TESTING. Rusty wanted to see how it compares to the others.
THIS WILL BE SHOT TONIGHT!!!!


----------



## 0nepin

sethro02 said:


> Trophy Taker Ulmer Edge ALL STEEL Prototype!!!! this is the deep six version and will be shot with an easton injexion arrow 28" long, 330 spine...total weight 437 grains. THIS TEST DOES NOT COUNT TOWARDS THE OFFICIAL THREAD TESTING. Rusty wanted to see how it compares to the others.
> THIS WILL BE SHOT TONIGHT!!!!
> View attachment 1422919


That bad arce!!!


----------



## 0nepin

sethro02 said:


> Trophy Taker Ulmer Edge ALL STEEL Prototype!!!! this is the deep six version and will be shot with an easton injexion arrow 28" long, 330 spine...total weight 437 grains. THIS TEST DOES NOT COUNT TOWARDS THE OFFICIAL THREAD TESTING. Rusty wanted to see how it compares to the others.
> THIS WILL BE SHOT TONIGHT!!!!
> View attachment 1422919


What does that head weigh?


----------



## sethro02

SORRY... 125 grains..


----------



## sethro02

UNOFFICIAL TROPHY TAKER ULMER EDGE ALL STEEL PROTOTYPE TEST RESULTS: 
1.5" CUTTING DIAMTER

penetration- 11 ( total penetration, alot!!!!)
durability- 4 ( blades slightly bent, was able to bend back and lock and load)
dependability- 5
sharp before- 5
sharp afer- 4
flight- 5
total score- 34 out 35,,,,plus 1 bonus point for pass through


----------



## sethro02

ulmer proto


----------



## kyhunter5569

Will this head be available in 100 grain??


----------



## sethro02

ulmer proto gel


----------



## sethro02

yes but not for a little while...it will be available in 125 grain standard shaft size pretty soon though


----------



## sethro02

ulmer proto aftermath


----------



## sethro02

Rusty, thanks alot for letting me shoot this head, i know you put alot of time in it so appreciate you letting me test it.


----------



## GarrickTX

Shouldernuke! said:


> But the problem is that most those bows produce that kind of KE /momentum with the heavy limbs at 70 or more pounds .Many think that they are getting great KE out of say50 or 60 # bow but once the real speed they are shooting not the "supposed speed "and the weight of the arrow is plugged into a ballistic calculator they are no where near the Moment /ke they think .Lets face it KE means little without great Momentum and that only comes from heavier arrows and usually heavier draw weight along with it .
> 
> IMHO too many perfectly health strong bowhunters sorry but for lack of better wording 'wimp" out on draw weight when in fact they could shoot much much more poundage easily and most with just minimal practice comfortably and really optimize their bow and arrow combos in most hunting situations . I beleive that most huntes need to get thier head on strait in this area .There are way way too many my arrow did not go deep or i lost a deer threads foer this not to be true ,especially if they are hitting these deer decently broadside as they say they are .
> I think our society has become just a little on the soft side and hunting and hunters are no different in that regard .
> 
> Its become too easy to be average and accept mediocraty today that inclues our equipment we use for many different reasons most not good ones . I attribute it to the "everyone gets a ribbon" generation that never really worked hard to win or excel at whatever they did when they were young because they still got medals and trophies.They never lost since ther were no winners or loosers most of thier lives and when it got rel they bailed out of whatever sport they were in in most cases, so the fact they loose deer on bad shots or poor equipment choices could not be thier problem or issue .
> 
> Sorry if that seems critical but it ws meant to be an indictment on many copout hunters and thier girlish equipment choices I know lots of women who shoot more poundage well than may fully capable men and that is sad .


complacency is a disease america has contracted... due to taking government handouts imo. I agree with everything you said, hunters should be what all of america strive to be. Our military was founded on many many hunting practices. We need to get back to that point


----------



## ihuntforchrst

that is a very impressive broadhead.


----------



## 0nepin

sethro02 said:


> Trophy Taker Ulmer Edge ALL STEEL Prototype!!!! this is the deep six version and will be shot with an easton injexion arrow 28" long, 330 spine...total weight 437 grains. THIS TEST DOES NOT COUNT TOWARDS THE OFFICIAL THREAD TESTING. Rusty wanted to see how it compares to the others.
> THIS WILL BE SHOT TONIGHT!!!!
> View attachment 1422919


ulmer edge meet rage digger.there in the same weight class 125gr vs 124gr.those ulmer are unstoppable!!!!!!


----------



## nthewild

ulmer all steel...drool


----------



## MarkBaHoi

I'm impressed to say the least with the Ulmer steel!

Is there anything they can do to the blades to toughen them up so they don't bend or is better to bend than break?


----------



## NoDeerInIowa

Wicked!

Sent from my PC36100 using Tapatalk 2


----------



## sethro02

I now feel better about spending $180 on 12 injexions


----------



## sethro02

They cant get much thicker then they wont fit...ill just say id be happy replacing blades as long as it performs like this


----------



## 0nepin

sethro02 said:


> I now feel better about spending $180 on 12 injexions


dont turn your bow up any!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! well unless you dont mind holes in your wall.


----------



## GarrickTX

Thats what I'm Talkin 'bout! Ulmer Edge isn't a fluke! Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't both ulmers pass thru?


----------



## seiowabow

That's the mechanical that I would shoot.

Sent from my DROID4 using Tapatalk 2


----------



## sethro02

Yes...standard ulmer didnt passthrough as much!?!?


----------



## deanzr2

Rusty, I shoot 125g heads, send me an all steel for a standard arrow, and I'll test it out come September :wink:
Seriously, though:77: on making an awesome head.

Seth, thanks again for all the time, effort, and money you've put into this.


----------



## seiowabow

I think Trophy Taker will be quite pleased with their broadhead sales this year. Just ordered shuttle t's, now I want some Ulmer's Edge!

Sent from my DROID4 using Tapatalk 2


----------



## bassman417

0nepin said:


> If you can get 80ke with an arrow around 400gr you will never have a problem .you don't need that much but that what I recommend .


With the setup Seth has the KE is probably pretty average for todays bows and both Ulmer heads were 125 grain if Im correct and they totally blew through the test model. I think these heads could be modified to frankenheads and leave massive holes and be used by most setups, I could be wrong though.


----------



## BigB_2579

Goodness !!! Trophy Taker has got one BAD***** mech head !!! I've always kept a few BPS Gators ... But fixing to change that ! Probably a dumb question (as I'm sure they do) , but those blades on the Ulmer DO swivel once they open don't they , Seth ? 

Big B.


----------



## 0nepin

bassman417 said:


> With the setup Seth has the KE is probably pretty average for todays bows and both Ulmer heads were 125 grain if Im correct and they totally blew through the test model. I think these heads could be modified to frankenheads and leave massive holes and be used by most setups, I could be wrong though.


you should look up the raging ulmer and its sethro baby,it mite be the perfect head.as you can see the rage digger has a giant cut and is not appropriate for every one.this the lower ke head im working on ,its called closed casket and it has a 2" cut on the rear blades.


----------



## sethro02

yes they do swivel..................I'm going to try to explain something the best i can. i was notified about the blades bending. when this head contacts something hard, bone, plywood, etc. they are made to where the "tabs" cave in or crush in...and it basically locks these blades in place...yes they do swivel but if it strikes something very hard those tabs are made to crush inward allowing the blades to stay locked open...typically it wont be 1.5" locked open because the blades bend a little but in my experience shooting them and rusty's experience shooting them, their hasnt been one bent under 1 1/8" cutting diameter. all the standard ulmer's that i shot through this test had the same thing happen, they bent and were locked open, i couldnt shut them so i gave it a 4 on durability since blades bent but this is the design of the head...if i missed something or mis spoke, rusty may correct me! i tried to explain it the best i could!


----------



## MarkBaHoi

Someone should tell randy the market is wanting a 2.5" all steel 100 grain version...


----------



## sethro02

i think all steel ferrule and trying to shove that big of blades inside it wont happen...they really want the design of the kick out tabs due to the long range accuracy it has. so that would make that ferrule supppper long!!!


----------



## bginvestor

You will get more momentum using 125 versus 100 grain, so penetration results will be different.

Heavier weight may not be the answer though.


----------



## sethro02

its all about what your bow can shoot efficiently....if my axe is at 52 lbs...i shouldnt really shoot over 450 grains because my k.e and momentum start to go down...my bow at 52 lbs gets the most out of an arrow from 380 to 420 grains...this will differ with everyones set up...so i understand what your saying about momentum but that is only if you can afford to go up more in weight....


----------



## sethro02

oh yea forgot to say......imo


----------



## BootyK

MarkBaHoi said:


> Someone should tell randy the market is wanting a 2.5" all steel 100 grain version...


Exactly what I was thinking. 
Even a 2 in cut would be great.


----------



## bginvestor

:thumbs_up


----------



## Rothhar1

Seth that is an awsome BH result ..I am very impressed to say the least .That is a prototype is that correct ? I want about a dozen of them to try this next year !! Very impressive result Those were 125 gr correct that is even bettter


----------



## sethro02

yes prototype 125 grain....will be available in standard shaft sizes soon....


Onepin check your frankenhead thread


----------



## nthewild

bigger isn't always better guys. a lot of planning went into the ulmer head and although there will be other variations in the future, a giant cutting surface isn't always the best answer.


----------



## buckhunter1

Shouldernuke! said:


> But the problem is that most those bows produce that kind of KE /momentum with the heavy limbs at 70 or more pounds .Many think that they are getting great KE out of say50 or 60 # bow but once the real speed they are shooting not the "supposed speed "and the weight of the arrow is plugged into a ballistic calculator they are no where near the Moment /ke they think .Lets face it KE means little without great Momentum and that only comes from heavier arrows and usually heavier draw weight along with it .
> 
> *IMHO too many perfectly health strong bowhunters sorry but for lack of better wording 'wimp" out on draw weight when in fact they could shoot much much more poundage easily and most with just minimal practice comfortably and really optimize their bow and arrow combos in most hunting situations . I beleive that most huntes need to get thier head on strait in this area .There are way way too many my arrow did not go deep or i lost a deer threads foer this not to be true ,especially if they are hitting these deer decently broadside as they say they are .*
> I think our society has become just a little on the soft side and hunting and hunters are no different in that regard .
> 
> Its become too easy to be average and accept mediocraty today that inclues our equipment we use for many different reasons most not good ones . I attribute it to the "everyone gets a ribbon" generation that never really worked hard to win or excel at whatever they did when they were young because they still got medals and trophies.They never lost since ther were no winners or loosers most of thier lives and when it got rel they bailed out of whatever sport they were in in most cases, so the fact they loose deer on bad shots or poor equipment choices could not be thier problem or issue .
> 
> Sorry if that seems critical but it ws meant to be an indictment on many copout hunters and thier girlish equipment choices I know lots of women who shoot more poundage well than may fully capable men and that is sad .


*I disagree with that part! I have shot 70#s + for about 20 years now. I now have a bad back and shoulder. I truly believe that it is because I have used more poundage when it wasn't necessary. I am backing down this season.... IMO people over bow them selves all the time because they think they need it, or want to be cool! Bows now days are plenty efficient and it is not necessary to shoot high poundage. *


----------



## 0nepin

buckhunter1 said:


> *I disagree with that part! I have shot 70#s + for about 20 years now. I now have a bad back and shoulder. I truly believe that it is because I have used more poundage when it wasn't necessary. I am backing down this season.... IMO people over bow them selves all the time because they think they need it, or want to be cool! Bows now days are plenty efficient and it is not necessary to shoot high poundage. *


You have one heck of a bow at any Lb .


----------



## Rothhar1

nthewild said:


> bigger isn't always better guys. a lot of planning went into the ulmer head and although there will be other variations in the future, a giant cutting surface isn't always the best answer.


Well it dont hurt if the bow is of appropriate poundage and the arrows are of good weight !!lol Small heads have their place but not alot of places in todays archery world total cutting surface is important wether its 3 blades at 2 inches total or 4 at the same or just 2 blades .IMO


----------



## 0nepin

nthewild said:


> bigger isn't always better guys. a lot of planning went into the ulmer head and although there will be other variations in the future, a giant cutting surface isn't always the best answer.


If you got the right bow with the right arrow , bigger is most deffently better.you just need the head to be appropriate for your setup.I'm shooting a 509gr arrow at 331fps and I feel it would be a waste for me to shoot any under a 2.5" cut.


----------



## LNGBOWFLYER

When will the Steel Ulmer Edge be available in 125 grains. 

I now live in a state where mechanicals are legal. But I never even contemplated using a mechanical on elk since I didnt think they were strong enough or would penetrate enough. Well the Ulmer Edge has changed my mind. I want to biy these really really bad. I use 125 grain though so I have to wait. I hope they come in soon though because I will be deployed during the 2013 season so I will have to wait until 2014 to use them.


----------



## Rothhar1

buckhunter1 said:


> *I disagree with that part! I have shot 70#s + for about 20 years now. I now have a bad back and shoulder. I truly believe that it is because I have used more poundage when it wasn't necessary. I am backing down this season.... IMO people over bow them selves all the time because they think they need it, or want to be cool! Bows now days are plenty efficient and it is not necessary to shoot high poundage. *


If it fits it fits. many are woefully wimpy and it dont matter if its todays bows ,yesterdays ,or tomarrows bow hunters should strive to draw as much as they can draw comfortably instead of just taking the easy road .You likely tore up your shoulder by not warming up /stretching and working it too hard by taking on too much bow too soon .That is the most common reasons for shoulder injuries in archery .

Buddy we were shooting 80 - 90 # almost 40 years ago 70 would of seemed like a ladies bow.But we built up over time I shot a 94# target bow for speed back in the early 80s and hunting with 80 pounds plus every year for 20 years plus and those wer very common draw weights for men back then .


----------



## sethro02

Ill get back to you on release date of the 125 grain


----------



## buckhunter1

0nepin said:


> You have one heck of a bow at any Lb .


Thanks! By the way, I love your work. All of your heads look fantastic! 

I am basically just trying to tell Shouldernuke that too many hunters are shooting too much poundage and causing them to make a bad shot. If you can shoot a bow with less weight more comfortably and practice more consistently, you will make a better shot when the time comes. Making a better shot is more important than a little more KE!


----------



## 0nepin

Could not agree more.


Shouldernuke! said:


> If it fits it fits. many are woefully wimpy and it dont matter if its todays bows ,yesterdays ,or tomarrows bow hunters should strive to draw as much as they can draw comfortably insteqad of just taking the easy road .You likely tore up your shoulder by not warming up /stretching and working it too hard by taking on too much bow too soon .That is the most common reasons for shoulder injuries in archery .
> 
> Buddy we were shooting 80 - 90 # almost 40 years ago 70 would of seemed like a ladies bow.But we built up over time I shot a 94# target bow for speed back in the early 80s


----------



## Super 91

sethro02 said:


> ulmer proto aftermath
> View attachment 1422954


That is one AWESOME broadhead right there. I think that if any head would give Rage heads a run for their money, it would be these heads. I bet they sell a million of these. I got 8 packs headed my way of the 100 grain version. Just plain cool. Extremely well thought out design.


----------



## buckhunter1

Shouldernuke! said:


> If it fits it fits. many are woefully wimpy and it dont matter if its todays bows ,yesterdays ,or tomarrows bow hunters should strive to draw as much as they can draw comfortably insteqad of just taking the easy road .You likely tore up your shoulder by not warming up /stretching and working it too hard by taking on too much bow too soon .That is the most common reasons for shoulder injuries in archery .
> 
> Buddy we were shooting 80 - 90 # almost 40 years ago 70 would of seemed like a ladies bow.But we built up over time I shot a 94# target bow for speed back in the early 80s and hunting with 80 pounds plus every year for 20 years plus and those wer very common draw weights for men back then .


My shoulder is tore up for a combination of things. I could pull 80#s too in my prime, but I would never hunt with it. From experience, I respectfully disagree..


----------



## Michael Myers

Great Job Seth...Other then alot of Blah,Blah,Blah...Preachin...From others...


----------



## 0nepin

Super 91 said:


> That is one AWESOME broadhead right there. I think that if any head would give Rage heads a run for their money, it would be these heads. I bet they sell a million of these. I got 8 packs headed my way of the 100 grain version. Just plain cool. Extremely well thought out design.


I have two packs but I'm converting them to raging ulmers.like a much bigger cut that 1.5".


----------



## Rothhar1

buckhunter1 said:


> Thanks! By the way, I love your work. All of your heads look fantastic!
> 
> I am basically just trying to tell Shouldernuke that too many hunters are shooting too much poundage and causing them to make a bad shot. If you can shoot a bow with less weight more comfortably and practice more consistently, you will make a better shot when the time comes. Making a better shot is more important than a little more KE!


And a little more repetative practice will be no problem to ratchet it up over time .That the only reason most hunters are drawing too much they dont treat it like it should be and that is a workout as much as practice .But heavier poundage does come off cleaner at the shot and optimizes preformance with more efficiant arrows and head weights .


----------



## Rothhar1

buckhunter1 said:


> My shoulder is tore up for a combination of things. I could pull 80#s too in my prime, but I would never hunt with it. From experience, I respectfully disagree..


Thats Your own experiance and thats fine i had no issues with it at all poundage will ccome down over time as we grow older but it should not start of at the bottom because thats where it will always stay.JMO


----------



## Rothhar1

GrizzlyMan1980 said:


> Great Job Seth...Other then alot of Blah,Blah,Blah...Preachin...From others...


you may learn something griz there are things to both sides of these type coversations that can be of use down the road .


----------



## Michael Myers

Shouldernuke! said:


> you may learn something griz there are things to both sides of these type coversations that can be of use down the road .


 I have my Father and his Friends for that,And i really wasnt looking for a Teacher...This Thread was Great,Now it just seems to be a Different thread about other things...Oh well.Have fun with your Teachin others..Grizz


----------



## screaminbulls1

Thanks Mrs. Sethro for letting Mr. Sethro educate us all. Seth your a blessed man.


sethro02 said:


> A special thanks to my wife/assistant for helping out tonight, because if she wasnt so cool i wouldnt be doing this thread. no rude comments or i will hunt you down j/k....not really!
> View attachment 1422119


----------



## Rothhar1

GrizzlyMan1980 said:


> I have my Father and his Friends for that,And i really wasnt looking for a Teacher...This Thread was Great,Now it just seems to be a Different thread about other things...Oh well.Have fun with your Teachin others..Grizz


you can learn things from anyone gizz parents are just one source.


----------



## Norwegian Woods

I have a feeling some all steel mechs together with some Xbow Tricks will join me on a plains game walk and stalk bow hunt in South Africa next year


----------



## Michael Myers

Shouldernuke! said:


> you can learn things from anyone gizz parents are just one source.


Like i said.....Have fun with others....lol ...Grizz


----------



## sethro02

Thanks guys..lets keep this thread somewhat on the right track..alot of good info on here


----------



## Sandilands

Shouldernuke! said:


> you may learn something griz there are things to both sides of these type coversations that can be of use down the road .


Agreed!

I must say though....... WOW! What a great un-sponsored test, its the working mans broadhead test. It has taken me some time to sift through it all but I have read the whole thing. Thanks to Seth for all his hard work and determination, his family for allowing him to have the time Thanks to everyone else that has posted on this thread for their opinions. Really this is BH selection 103, not for beginners because IMHO you would need a little experience to know what is being discussed and also to interpret the info.

My broadhead choices have been narrowed down in some avenues and have opened up in others. Once again ALL I have to SAY is WOW!!!!

BTW, I have some ABC Sonics if you would like to test them. I chose not to use them after my first shot at game because of durability issues. Could ship ASAP


----------



## c_rob04

goathollow said:


> See the link in Seth's signature; it will take you to a spreadsheet where all the results are tallied.


Thanks!!


----------



## IndianaPSE

ShoulderNuke should get the heck out of here, agreed, the thread was great til he started blabbering - glad he's on my ignore list.

The guy really thinks highly of himself and his keyboard. Sad really...


----------



## RustyUlmer

BootyK said:


> Exactly what I was thinking.
> Even a 2 in cut would be great.


I'm working on it guys...It should be ready for next year. 
Regarding the blades bending, I think that needs some clarification:
I hope this picture comes through. It shows the Ulmer Edge blade removed from the ferrule. The bent "tab" is what allows the two blades to engage each other. As the 45 degree bevel on the tab of one blade slides past it's counterpart on the other blade they spring past each other, then as the blades contact the target they are forced back again and the two 45 degree bevels engage each other preventing the blades from closing. If one blade contacts something hard (bone) it will swivel back into the ferrule while simultaneously forcing the other blade further out. As a safety mechanism to prevent blade fracture, when both blades hit something very hard at the same time (as in penetrating a shoulder blade or Seth's wood) the bevels will be forced into each other to actually act as a shock absorber. If enough force is exerted on the blades these two tabs will actually wedge between the two sides of the slot inside the ferrule and "lock". This wedging acts as a cushion to help prevent blade fracture in these extremely hard hits. This results in the blades closing past the 1.5" cutting diameter sometimes to as little as 1 1/8" diameter and the blades no longer swivel. This is not a failure. It is a design feature to help prevent failure in extreme situations.
I hope this helps you guys understand this feature of the head.
Rusty


----------



## Boghdóir

Those Ulmers are crazy.
I am a new bowhunter, and last year was my first fall hunting deer. I had Rage broadheads in my quiver because I could not get my field points and broadheads to hit together. This year I promised myself that I would learn to tune my bow and shoot fixed blade heads accurately, no short cuts. I bought some  broadheads and have gotten Wac'ems, Silverflames, and Slick Tricks (The three famous flyers) to hit true. I am stoked with it and will hunt with fixed blades this year, but if I go back to mechs, I think these are it. I have to do some soul searching, because accuracy is my number one priority. I'm so confused lol!


----------



## 0nepin

Thanks Rusty . You are going far beyond what is expected and Im very glad I bought your product. =RustyUlmer;1064698500]
View attachment 1423106

I'm working on it guys...It should be ready for next year. 
Regarding the blades bending, I think that needs some clarification:
I hope this picture comes through. It shows the Ulmer Edge blade removed from the ferrule. The bent "tab" is what allows the two blades to engage each other. As the 45 degree bevel on the tab of one blade slides past it's counterpart on the other blade they spring past each other, then as the blades contact the target they are forced back again and the two 45 degree bevels engage each other preventing the blades from closing. If one blade contacts something hard (bone) it will swivel back into the ferrule while simultaneously forcing the other blade further out. As a safety mechanism to prevent blade fracture, when both blades hit something very hard at the same time (as in penetrating a shoulder blade or Seth's wood) the bevels will be forced into each other to actually act as a shock absorber. If enough force is exerted on the blades these two tabs will actually wedge between the two sides of the slot inside the ferrule and "lock". This wedging acts as a cushion to help prevent blade fracture in these extremely hard hits. This results in the blades closing past the 1.5" cutting diameter sometimes to as little as 1 1/8" diameter and the blades no longer swivel. This is not a failure. It is a design feature to help prevent failure in extreme situations.
I hope this helps you guys understand this feature of the head.
Rusty[/QUOTE]


----------



## manboy

RustyUlmer said:


> View attachment 1423106
> 
> I'm working on it guys...It should be ready for next year.
> Regarding the blades bending, I think that needs some clarification:
> I hope this picture comes through. It shows the Ulmer Edge blade removed from the ferrule. The bent "tab" is what allows the two blades to engage each other. As the 45 degree bevel on the tab of one blade slides past it's counterpart on the other blade they spring past each other, then as the blades contact the target they are forced back again and the two 45 degree bevels engage each other preventing the blades from closing. If one blade contacts something hard (bone) it will swivel back into the ferrule while simultaneously forcing the other blade further out. As a safety mechanism to prevent blade fracture, when both blades hit something very hard at the same time (as in penetrating a shoulder blade or Seth's wood) the bevels will be forced into each other to actually act as a shock absorber. If enough force is exerted on the blades these two tabs will actually wedge between the two sides of the slot inside the ferrule and "lock". This wedging acts as a cushion to help prevent blade fracture in these extremely hard hits. This results in the blades closing past the 1.5" cutting diameter sometimes to as little as 1 1/8" diameter and the blades no longer swivel. This is not a failure. It is a design feature to help prevent failure in extreme situations.
> I hope this helps you guys understand this feature of the head.
> Rusty



Thanks for taking time to explain in detail!.....125 steel ulmers....are on my list when the are released!


----------



## NoDeerInIowa

Thank you Rusty. Hopefully we don't have to wait til 2013 for the steel ulmer. I would shoot that head in whatever weight I could get it in.

Sent from my PC36100 using Tapatalk 2


----------



## Sandilands

I started off hunting as a rifle hunter and enjoyed reading P.O. Ackley when I was younger. I learned a lot from those articles not only for rifle kills but also as it seems, the thought process of the kill. IMHO, the steeper angled blades as in my coveted ST's and especially the GrizzTricks that have done so well in this test. I am in search of a head that has a slightly less aggressive or steep blade angle. Before thse tests were conducted I was really thinking Buzzcuts and VPA's.... Now I am leaning more towards the VPA side. I have never been an expanding BH guy but have bought some just to see what the huff was about. I have used T2's with good expriences but have never used the Grim reapers that I purchased. After this test I would say that the Ulmer head would be on my list of 'might want to try heads'

This is what I have deduced from this test.


----------



## public land

Hi sethro02 thank you for an informative thread. Seems to be a world wide shortage of Ballistics gel you know anything about this?

thanks again : ) the vap vented 100 or 125's will be on my arrow this fall 

let me take the time to thank you a 3rd time.

Be safe have fun Enjoy the hunt.


----------



## 5 Rivers

sethro02 said:


> Trophy Taker Ulmer Edge ALL STEEL Prototype!!!! this is the deep six version and will be shot with an easton injexion arrow 28" long, 330 spine...total weight 437 grains. THIS TEST DOES NOT COUNT TOWARDS THE OFFICIAL THREAD TESTING. Rusty wanted to see how it compares to the others.
> THIS WILL BE SHOT TONIGHT!!!!
> View attachment 1422919




Seth I think this 125 gr TT Ulmer Edge will perform great on your long range testing as well.
I"ve been very impressed with the 100gr to date.


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## sethro02

Thanks alot guys..thanks rusty I k.ow explanation was super short sorry I didnt quite explain it right


----------



## Karbon

sethro02 said:


> Steelforce Phathead Results!
> penetration- 21!!!!
> durability- 5
> dependability- 5
> sharp before- 5
> sharp after- 4
> flight- 5
> total score= 46 out of 53!!!!
> 
> View attachment 1403754


I knew these would fair well.
(nice work on the test)


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## sethro02

Yea those are solid


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## Buckfevr

The Steel Ulmer is slated for release this year or next?


----------



## goathollow

I've never been an expandable guy, in fact I've deliberately stayed away...my reasons I will save for another thread. HOWEVER, the Ulmer's are making me seriously consider coming over the to dark side (so to speak :wink The Steel Ulmer might just push me over the edge!! that kind of penetration is right up my alley! The Gravedigger ain't lookin to bad either; kinda like their best of both worlds approach.


----------



## GarrickTX

Is there going to be another round of testing? If so, which heads are up?


----------



## sethro02

I was told "soon" for steel ulmer..may call dan and get more info...goathollow you should at least carru one in your quiver! I wont tell anybody!


----------



## sethro02

Yes their will be...few cx heads another sonoran..and their are a couple more in the mail..ive been on a big landscape job so once I can break away from that we will start wrapping things up..still trying to work on youtube channel so everyone can see this happening for themselves


----------



## Sivart

Did Seth do the 2nd round of the grim reaper whitetail special yet? I couldn't find any info.


----------



## goathollow

sethro02 said:


> I was told "soon" for steel ulmer..may call dan and get more info...goathollow you should at least carru one in your quiver! I wont tell anybody!


Yeah I agree... but then there are the new Phatheads I just bought (which are sweet shooters) and the Vipertricks I have on order....I may have to go to a 7 arrow quiver!!


----------



## Kstigall

Shouldernuke! said:


> If it fits it fits. many are woefully wimpy and it dont matter if its todays bows ,yesterdays ,or tomarrows bow hunters should strive to draw as much as they can draw comfortably instead of just taking the easy road .You likely tore up your shoulder by not warming up /stretching and working it too hard by taking on too much bow too soon .That is the most common reasons for shoulder injuries in archery .
> 
> Buddy we were shooting 80 - 90 # almost 40 years ago 70 would of seemed like a ladies bow.But we built up over time I shot a 94# target bow for speed back in the early 80s and hunting with 80 pounds plus every year for 20 years plus and those wer very common draw weights for men back then .


It's impossible to stay "warmed up" when in a tree stand 4 - 14 hours straight.

Almost 40 years ago would have made the bows long axle-to-axle with almost round wheels. Those bows were fairly easy to draw and incredibly inefficient compared to modern bows. 

By all standards people are bigger and stronger on average than 40 years ago. 

My '85 70+ lb Martin FireCat was roughly 60 fps slower than my current Darton DS-3800 @ 60 lbs. Back in the day short draw bows were terrible and my 26" draw is short.

I'd like to see a side by side comparison of a 1980 hot rod bow compared to say a Darton DS-3800 or Monster. I dare say the 3800 or Monster at 70 lbs. would blow the doors off a 1980 bow at 80+ lbs.! 

I _know _current archers with modern gear are much more effective deer killers than archers were in 1980 shooting _manly _draw weights. Back then too many folks were shooting manly draw weights that hurt their ability to effectively kill deer. Too many men, if not most, shot draw lengths well beyond what they should have been using. 

You guys have it wrong. Archers are today doing what improves their odds of killing deer unlike decades ago when too many made it about draw weight and speed compared to what their buddies shot. Using shoudlernukes philosophy rifle hunters would be more effective using .458's rather than 30/06's for deer hunting!!


----------



## 0nepin

Whats wrong with a 458 for whitetail ?


----------



## goathollow

Kstigall said:


> It's impossible to stay "warmed up" when in a tree stand 4 - 14 hours straight.
> 
> Almost 40 years ago would have made the bows long axle-to-axle with almost round wheels. Those bows were fairly easy to draw and incredibly inefficient compared to modern bows.
> 
> By all standards people are bigger and stronger on average than 40 years ago.
> 
> My '85 70+ lb Martin FireCat was roughly 60 fps slower than my current Darton DS-3800 @ 60 lbs. Back in the day short draw bows were terrible and my 26" draw is short.
> 
> I'd like to see a side by side comparison of a 1980 hot rod bow compared to say a Darton DS-3800 or Monster. I dare say the 3800 or Monster at 70 lbs. would blow the doors off a 1980 bow at 80+ lbs.!
> 
> I _know _current archers with modern gear are much more effective deer killers than archers were in 1980 shooting _manly _draw weights. Back then too many folks were shooting manly draw weights that hurt their ability to effectively kill deer. Too many men, if not most, shot draw lengths well beyond what they should have been using.
> 
> You guys have it wrong. Archers are today doing what improves their odds of killing deer unlike decades ago when too many made it about draw weight and speed compared to what their buddies shot. Using shoudlernukes philosophy rifle hunters would be more effective using .458's rather than 30/06's for deer hunting!!


Not to mention aluminum arrows that were about 12 gr/in and a 125 gr broadhead was on the light side. Its a different archery world today and really to compare the equipment we use today to even 15 years ago (let alone 30-40 yrs) is comparing an apple to an orange.


----------



## GarrickTX

0nepin said:


> Whats wrong with a 458 for whitetail ?


:thumbs_up


----------



## basnbuks

Ok im caught up, good stuff here!


Sent across the ocean in a beer bottle


----------



## Kstigall

0nepin said:


> Whats wrong with a 458 for whitetail ?


Nothing. But a LOT of people if not most would not be able to shoot worth a damn after sighting one in! Hence less effective.


----------



## sethro02

2 nd rd grims not shot yet..

Spoke with dan from trophy taker..125 grain steel version ulmer will be introduced for 2013 season..not quite enough time to get them produced for us this year..the first show they will be attending is in december so possibly look for them there..in the mean time shoot 100 grain!


----------



## GarrickTX

i think the point was to work up to shooting hevier weights. If you want to get the most out of your set up, why not work up to 70lbs? If you can pull that easily, you can drop down to 65lbs for hunting and be able to hold it all day


----------



## oct_1st

Seth,

Been lurking on this thread past week! Went through all 97 pages. Very informative and non-biased! Going on my first archery elk hunt next month. Thanks to your efforts, I am very confident in my recent purchase of the TT Ulmer's:jam: I have been shooting them at 40 yrds and in practice mode and they are crazy accurate. I had to double up my targets as I almost lost a couple arrows with a few pass throughs. ukey:. I certainly hope you treat your wife and family to a nice weekend away from this testing! You all deserve it!! Again AWESOME JOB!!


----------



## sethro02

Thanks man...i see no problem at all in your purchase..they are hard to stop in practice mode!


----------



## HC Knives

Seth what is the f.o.c. on the arrows you used? This would play a big part in how the penetration failed or succeded Imo though the comparsion would still be the same


----------



## 0nepin

Wow don't post much. But this thread is with out a dout the best thread in AT history!!! Can't blame you for poasting on this thread.#2 post since 2010. N QUOTE=oct_1st;1064704410]Seth,

Been lurking on this thread past week! Went through all 97 pages. Very informative and non-biased! Going on my first archery elk hunt next month. Thanks to your efforts, I am very confident in my recent purchase of the TT Ulmer's:jam: I have been shooting them at 40 yrds and in practice mode and they are crazy accurate. I had to double up my targets as I almost lost a couple arrows with a few pass throughs. ukey:. I certainly hope you treat your wife and family to a nice weekend away from this testing! You all deserve it!! Again AWESOME JOB!![/QUOTE]


----------



## sethro02

Let me chk foc when I get home


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## 0nepin

When are going to have a franken head shoot out? Timmyz7 just came up with idea for monster size cutting rear deplory head.


----------



## Tater1985

sethro02 said:


> Spoke with dan from trophy taker..125 grain steel version ulmer will be introduced for 2013 season..not quite enough time to get them produced for us this year..the first show they will be attending is in december so possibly look for them there..in the mean time shoot 100 grain!


Didnt Dan or Rusty say that they hope to have a standard thread all aluminum 125gr ready by fall? I may be dreaming stuff up, but thought i remembered reading something like that. Great work on all the testing Seth! Ive seen pretty much everything ive been waiting on. Last one i am waiting to see now is the 2 blade Mar Den Vortex. I used to shoot them and dad still does. I will be shooting the Ulmer this fall, and recommending them to customers. But when they release a slightly larger version i will be all over it!


Sent from my ADR6350 using Tapatalk 2


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## 206Moose

I still want to see razortrick so i can compare to phathead

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2


----------



## 0nepin

NTYMADATER said:


> I still want to see razortrick so i can compare to phathead
> 
> Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2


Little cut vs little cut , that would be cool.


----------



## TimmyZ7

0nepin said:


> Little cut vs little cut , that would be cool.


lol


----------



## 206Moose

You guys are hilarious 

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2


----------



## 0nepin

NTYMADATER said:


> You guys are hilarious
> 
> Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2


Just messing with ya.


----------



## 206Moose

I know

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2


----------



## bowdawg hunter

I'm a fixed broadhead guy, I guess I'm going to get a pack of the shuttle t black ops this season. 
Thanks
This thread and test was/is fantastic


----------



## sethro02

As far as I know the steel version is next to come out but thats all we talked about..their are some plans for accesories for the ulmers as well that may be coming out...basically the practice mode screw is 3 grains..he wants to add a 3 grain washer to the pack so when ur done with practice you take screw out and put washer between head and shaft when u screw head on...long story short randy ulmer found out with 3 grains differance at 100 yds their was a 2" differance on average with his groups


----------



## sethro02

Glad this thread helped you!


----------



## oct_1st

0nepin said:


> Wow don't post much. But this thread is with out a dout the best thread in AT history!!! Can't blame you for poasting on this thread.#2 post since 2010.


Yup! Rookie poster here!! :wave3: LOL Have hunted deer with a bow before, but mostly just to fill time in before Gun season started at deer camp. I took my first deer with a bow last year.... I am addicted now. So much better than gun hunting!! Great site with great info! (got #3 in now)


----------



## 4IDARCHER

Man, this threads great but I got lost somewhere around page 56-59ish... Can someone please tell me how the Muzzy MX-4 did as well as the shuttle T black ops?


----------



## sethro02

See my sig for results...
Mx4 wasnt tested


----------



## sethro02

Onepin frankenhead test should be next...bow will be cranked up...im trying to figure out when to do the next big test! Deer season is fast approachin


----------



## sethro02

I will be testing heads sunday fyi...including grim wts again


----------



## 0nepin

sethro02 said:


> Onepin frankenhead test should be next...bow will be cranked up...im trying to figure out when to do the next big test! Deer season is fast approachin


Maybe I should send you my franken bow to use for testing, it would seem appropriate .it's an 2010 omen rizer with 2011 axe cams and DW will be 84-94lb.you won't have any problem shooting it.let me know and as soon as it get here I will ship it to you.unlike the broadhead I sent you , you will have to ship this back .lol


----------



## sethro02

Im down with that! How many frankenheads are out there?


----------



## 0nepin

sethro02 said:


> Im down with that! How many frankenheads are out there?


I have three now that you have not tested and I know Timmyz7 has one and we have one massive , extreme , giant one in development.and there are a few more on the franken head thread ..


----------



## sethro02

Ok sounds cool..guess I better buy some 300 spines?


----------



## 0nepin

sethro02 said:


> Ok sounds cool..guess I better buy some 300 spines?


I will send 6 fmj 300 with it.


----------



## Michael Myers

I Cant wait till the 2nd week of September,Michael Myers is Coming back to Haddonfield...Cue the Music....Thanks Onepin...Grizzz


----------



## Michael Myers

This fall is gonna be a Blood bath with these Broadheads from Onepin.....Go big or Go Home....Lol


----------



## sethro02

Im pumped! Onepin what is the opposite of a f1ankenhead?Like the name of a micro expandable?


----------



## 0nepin

sethro02 said:


> Im pumped! Onepin what is the opposite of a f1ankenhead?Like the name of a micro expandable?


Slicktrick haha jk


----------



## tack09

Onepin, you must carry 2 drag straps. One for each half after you shoot it. Ha, those heads and that kind of draw weight is just a little over the top for me. We all find something to tinker with and it seems you like the extremes. I would hate to be a deer in your neck of the woods. You could say I am into more of the accuracy thing than the carnage side. I am looking forward to Sethro's extended range testing.


0nepin said:


> I have three now that you have not tested and I know Timmyz7 has one and we have one massive , extreme , giant one in development.and there are a few more on the franken head thread ..


----------



## 0nepin

I haven't even came up with a name for the omen/axe franken bow yet . Im to suggestion on the bow name if anybody got any good idea. My 86 Lb omen is named over kill and and 82lb xforce hf 6 is Mr perfect. My xforce hf ss is named thanksgiving because it's my turkey bow.My guardian is named wisper and my drenalin is named Joe the plumber.


----------



## Michael Myers

0nepin said:


> I haven't even came up with a name for the omen/axe franken bow yet . Im to suggestion on the bow name if anybody got any good idea. My 86 Lb omen is named over kill and and 82lb xforce hf 6 is Mr perfect. My xforce hf ss is named thanksgiving because it's my turkey bow.My guardian is named wisper and my drenalin is named Joe the plumber.


Call it Michael as in Michael Myers.....Grizz


----------



## 0nepin

tack09 said:


> Onepin, you must carry 2 drag straps. One for each half after you shoot it. Ha, those heads and that kind of draw weight is just a little over the top for me. We all find something to tinker with and it seems you like the extremes. I would hate to be a deer in your neck of the woods. You could say I am into more of the accuracy thing than the carnage side. I am looking forward to Sethro's extended range testing.


I would never ever give up accuracy . I fact me and my xforce hf 6 (mr perfect) won four 3d tournament in a row last year. To me accuracy is every thing.I shoot alot better with more holding weight.


----------



## johnswan

0nepin said:


> Slicktrick haha jk


I just about fell off my Chair!! That's funny right there!!


----------



## snoman4

Sandilands said:


> Agreed!
> 
> I must say though....... WOW! What a great un-sponsored test, its the working mans broadhead test. It has taken me some time to sift through it all but I have read the whole thing. Thanks to Seth for all his hard work and determination, his family for allowing him to have the time Thanks to everyone else that has posted on this thread for their opinions. Really this is BH selection 103, not for beginners because IMHO you would need a little experience to know what is being discussed and also to interpret the info.
> 
> 
> 
> My broadhead choices have been narrowed down in some avenues and have opened up in others. Once again ALL I have to SAY is WOW!!!!
> 
> BTW, I have some ABC Sonics if you would like to test them. I chose not to use them after my first shot at game because of durability issues. Could ship ASAP


They are decent heads the second versions anyway they hold together better. My avatar buck which is my largest bow kill was killed with the ABC Supersonic 100 grains. I killed 5 deer with them in 2 years and always had a pass through with them. The blades were pretty much done after the kill but the ferrule always held up well.


----------



## snoman4

NTYMADATER said:


> I still want to see razortrick so i can compare to phathead
> 
> Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2


I shoot both and can tell you that the phathead is a lot more durable than the razortrick. It also buries a lot deeper in my broadhead target. They both fly awesome though. I have had the razortrick blades sliver on the edges shooting into my yellowjacket target after about 10-15 shots. I have used the same phathead for 9 months and other than dulling it looks brand new. Probably 500-600 shots with that head. They are the toughest heads I have shot.


----------



## seiowabow

0nepin said:


> Slicktrick haha jk


We should compare deer mounts Onepin. Not sure how I managed to kill any with these tiny broadheads and draw weights under 90#

Sent from my DROID4 using Tapatalk 2


----------



## Rothhar1

Kstigall said:


> It's impossible to stay "warmed up" when in a tree stand 4 - 14 hours straight.
> 
> Almost 40 years ago would have made the bows long axle-to-axle with almost round wheels. Those bows were fairly easy to draw and incredibly inefficient compared to modern bows.
> 
> By all standards people are bigger and stronger on average than 40 years ago.
> 
> My '85 70+ lb Martin FireCat was roughly 60 fps slower than my current Darton DS-3800 @ 60 lbs. Back in the day short draw bows were terrible and my 26" draw is short.
> 
> I'd like to see a side by side comparison of a 1980 hot rod bow compared to say a Darton DS-3800 or Monster. I dare say the 3800 or Monster at 70 lbs. would blow the doors off a 1980 bow at 80+ lbs.!
> 
> I _know _current archers with modern gear are much more effective deer killers than archers were in 1980 shooting _manly _draw weights. Back then too many folks were shooting manly draw weights that hurt their ability to effectively kill deer. Too many men, if not most, shot draw lengths well beyond what they should have been using.
> 
> You guys have it wrong. Archers are today doing what improves their odds of killing deer unlike decades ago when too many made it about draw weight and speed compared to what their buddies shot. Using shoudlernukes philosophy rifle hunters would be more effective using .458's rather than 30/06's for deer hunting!!


And yes they are more efficant killers with 458 than an 06.. Secondly yes todays bows are more efficant than those of 40 years ago and way way faster if you shot back then you knew that but im guessing you didnt and are only guessing about the shooters from 40 years ago.The fact they are more efficiant and faster is the whole point but that said they are more efficiant at thier highest draw weights not lowest .Any pro can tell you that .Also no one said anything about shooting a bow too long for them.BTW i was winning IBO events with those supposed to heavy weights back then as was everyone else with propor fitting AND TUNED heavy equipment .Accuracy was in the person with the best yardage estimate btw no binocs allowed and shoot sequince .

You ASSUME to much in your post ab out why or what we were shoot like, not everyone was shooting poorly or to much weight or too long a bow thats the myth that todays archers want to use to justifie or make thier generation seem some how superior and its not going to happen here with me.


----------



## Porkrind

Talk about assumptions.......... Good god I just have to roll my eyes at liberalisatic views. To bad some people care more about what we do than they should and they can always correct what other people do over the keyboard.


----------



## Smoknnca

Seth Monday I am gonna send out the VAP with alum and SS outsert and a sabermaxx broad head. That broadhead is just for fun but am interested in how it may fare in this test. Yesterday I actually sunk a VAP with the SS outsert and 125 grn field point to the fletchings in a carpet bale target, not an easy feat.


----------



## Northern Archer

Hey Canadian guys, I have the Gravediggers coming in for sale in Canada. PM me if interested in buying some. 
Seth you have inspired a lot of great conversation and developed one heck of a following. Sometimes the moaning and pissing gets tiresome but it is usually short lived.
Stay true to your original objective and let everyone else glean what they need from your tests. Fantastic job!


----------



## sethro02

Thanks everybody...smoknnca please not you return address so I remember who im shipping it back too...testing sunday! Wifey is getting hair did and ill be getting my shoot on! Congrats canadians you now have a top contending broadhead to purchase!


----------



## Michael Myers

Northern Archer said:


> Hey Canadian guys, I have the Gravediggers coming in for sale in Canada. PM me if interested in buying some.
> Seth you have inspired a lot of great conversation and developed one heck of a following. Sometimes the moaning and pissing gets tiresome but it is usually short lived.
> Stay true to your original objective and let everyone else glean what they need from your tests. Fantastic job!


I Have 2 Packs coming to me from Dale,But maybe can Pick more up from you if needed.Hows the Fishin right now?And any chance your Camp has a Bull tag left for Archery?Me and a 3 Buddies are trying to find a Camp with a Bull tag for Moose,We did not put in for the Draw,I Was supposed to be in Red Lake Working on Nungesser Lake,Let me Know,Grizz


----------



## buckhunter1

I am thinking about buying a pack of 125's. So the Grave Diggers are not rear deploy, so how does the entry hole compare to others? I understand it has an 1 3/4" blade. Does it open up after it enters the hide? I like a big entry hole....


----------



## Wolfey

Looks like we'll get to page 100 today. This thread is great. Thanks Seth for all the time and effort it took to make it this far


----------



## sethro02

I will post video of how gravedigger works..its not rear deploying


----------



## duckman111

recieved a pack of grave diggers and ulmer edges yesterday. I can tell you one thing you dont want to miss the target with the ulmer in practice mode. hit 3/4" barn wood with it and it demolished it. only one i had with me . shot the grave digger along with my field points they hit right together. think im going to try the ulmer out on antelope and hope to try the grave diggers out on deer and elk. Great thread by the way!!


----------



## Porkrind

Sethro i've been running into vet bills like crazy. I've been wanting to buy and send some X-system broadheads for your test but right now money got tight. Is there anyway in the future that I could send one to you to test? Sorry for falling through with them.


----------



## screaminbulls1

buckhunter1 said:


> I am thinking about buying a pack of 125's. So the Grave Diggers are not rear deploy, so how does the entry hole compare to others? I understand it has an 1 3/4" blade. Does it open up after it enters the hide? I like a big entry hole....


There are some good pics in another thread that shows some carnage on a hog. Look at weekender7's post in the hunting forum.


----------



## nolimitarchery

Here is a link to answer the questions as to how the Grave Digger is designed and how it works. I hope this helps.

Thank you
Dale
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L648TAJ8qKU


----------



## sethro02

Thx dale for posting that


----------



## chaded

I think a Gravedigger with a mechanical set-up like the Ulmer would be pretty cool. Has someone made one of those I can't keep up with all of what has been made lol.


----------



## mathewshooterxt

IndianaPSE said:


> ShoulderNuke should get the heck out of here, agreed, the thread was great til he started blabbering - glad he's on my ignore list.
> 
> The guy really thinks highly of himself and his keyboard. Sad really...


Amen to that!! He must suffer from a bad case of penis envy!!


----------



## lastcast33

Give me some cliff notes on the Ramcats please. To lazy to go thru entire thread. TIA


----------



## sethro02

My sig has results


----------



## Michael Myers

mathewshooterxt said:


> Amen to that!! He must suffer from a bad case of penis envy!!


I Put him on my ignore list...I Dont need to listen to him Preach,If i did i would just go to Church..Grizz


----------



## lastcast33

sethro02 said:


> My sig has results


 Impressive!!! You should win a pulitzer for your efforts. Thanks


----------



## buckhunter1

Thanks Dale! I am sold! Very nice demonstration... Just for the heck of it, since you are the creator, which style would you choose for a mature Whitetail Buck, COC or Trocar tip version?

Also, when can I get my hands on the 125's?


----------



## sethro02

I dont want a pulitzer I just want everyone to keep following when I start youtube channel..im glad you guys like the thread


----------



## nolimitarchery

buckhunter1 said:


> Thanks Dale! I am sold! Very nice demonstration... Just for the heck of it, since you are the creator, which style would you choose for a mature Whitetail Buck, COC or Trocar tip version?
> 
> Also, when can I get my hands on the 125's?


I personally like the COC because that is what everything has been killed with and they were designed for the hides of elk. We will kill some stuff with the trocar tip protos this year but at this point I only have 12. The 125's will be ready by Sept 1 if not sooner. I'm not sure when the Trocars will be available. The whitetail on the website pictured with me I shot at 25 yards it cut 2 ribs going in and 2 going out. It was a complete pass through and he went 45 yards..

Thanks 
Dale


----------



## weekender7

at Sethro's invite, I am posting a link to my thread on my Gravedigger vs hog findings. I can say without any doubt that Sethro has created the best, most informative thread ever on the subject at hand. IMO his test has been fair and about as close as you can get to real world without drawing blood. Wonder how many guys are like me and lighter in the wallet after reading this thread. To Sethro and family, THANKS is not enough.

http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=1808258


----------



## sethro02

Thanks weekender7 nice hog


----------



## 0nepin

I have bought gravedigger and ulmer edge broad head because of sethro test and because both creator contribtuting to the thread


weekender7 said:


> at Sethro's invite, I am posting a link to my thread on my Gravedigger vs hog findings. I can say without any doubt that Sethro has created the best, most informative thread ever on the subject at hand. IMO his test has been fair and about as close as you can get to real world without drawing blood. Wonder how many guys are like me and lighter in the wallet after reading this thread. To Sethro and family, THANKS is not enough.
> 
> http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=1808258


----------



## sethro02

I have a feeling we will be seeing alot of gravediiggers in retail stores


----------



## basnbuks

That video answered alotta questions for me, im sold!!


Sent across the ocean in a beer bottle


----------



## rayzor43

flopduster said:


> Seth,
> Based on what you have seen in this test, which head would you put on the end of an arrow for a youth shooting 35 lbs?



I know this question was for Seth but go with a heavy head. It will penetrate better at slower speeds. We haven't tested at 35# but we have at 40# which is the minimum in many states. 150-175gr 3 blade would be my answer. 125-175 in a 2 blade.


----------



## MarksExtra

OK. So I just bought some Ulmer Edges even though I thought I read somewhere that some were not very sharp and when I got home, I opened the pack and sure enough, and they are what I would consider to be dull.... Without reading the whole 100 pages again, what's the fix?


----------



## 0nepin

Great video Dale .


----------



## 0nepin

MarksExtra said:


> OK. So I just bought some Ulmer Edges even though I thought I read somewhere that some were not very sharp and when I got home, I opened the pack and sure enough, and they are what I would consider to be dull.... Without reading the whole 100 pages again, what's the fix?


sharpen them.


----------



## MarksExtra

0nepin said:


> sharpen them.


And to think you wasted a post on that answer.....brilliant.

Here. I was able to locate it. 



Bowhuntr64 said:


> Make sure you are not just feeling a sharpened, but single beveled blade. They don't feel the same as a double bevel. If you examine it really well and it is really dull, they will replace it and also give you a hat for your troubles. The exchanged ones I got are nice and sharp...but still feel different than a double beveled blade.


----------



## basnbuks

Just ordered a pack of grave diggers!!!! Hope there not on backorder with all the hoopala on here lol


Sent across the ocean in a beer bottle


----------



## 0nepin

chaded said:


> I think a Gravedigger with a mechanical set-up like the Ulmer would be pretty cool. Has someone made one of those I can't keep up with all of what has been made lol.


Check out the franken head thread, there is one that some one built with bp gator blades .and it's super efficient .


----------



## 0nepin

MarksExtra said:


> And to think you wasted a post on that answer.....brilliant.


Just messing with you. But really if you can just sharpen them.


----------



## 0nepin

Page 100


----------



## sethro02

i sharpened by ulmer edge blades with the g5 diamond stone...seemed to work good as long as you have a steady hand


----------



## Michael Myers

Seth,I Think if you dont receive that Rage by Tuesday its lost or Stolen,I Sent Slick tricks to Maryland and the Guy got them days ago,Pisses me off,Grizz


----------



## Tater1985

MarksExtra said:


> OK. So I just bought some Ulmer Edges even though I thought I read somewhere that some were not very sharp and when I got home, I opened the pack and sure enough, and they are what I would consider to be dull.... Without reading the whole 100 pages again, what's the fix?


Call Trophy Taker and tell them you received a pkg with dull blades. They have excellent customer service and will get new heads out to you. They honor their sharpness gaurentee.

Sent from my ADR6350 using Tapatalk 2


----------



## sethro02

Ok guys small announcement....
First. yes i will be testing tomorrow!
Second. My youtube channel has been created! I am still trying to change settings and all that lame stuff but this is the channel.....sethadamsoutdoors.......I have not uploaded any videos yet so you may not find it but that is what the channel name will be.


----------



## sethro02

grizz man i received your package today....2 out of the 3 heads were completely destroyed..the rage 2 blade is good...the other 2 are bent and broken


----------



## MarksExtra

0nepin said:


> Just messing with you. But really if you can just sharpen them.


Sorry man. I'm a little T'd right now.Didn't mean to come off that way, but...... I just knew I'd be the person to get a dull pack if there were 100 packs sittin there and only one pack was dull....I'd pick it. Sent an email to TT. Don't suppose you've got any tips to sharpening them? a G5 diamond stone?


----------



## sethro02

diamond stone from g5 is basically all i use...their are much more other ways though...it was just cheap and its convenient...i think it works well but you definately have to practice.


----------



## sethro02

i bought 4 packs of ulmer's...3 out of 4 were dull so i know how you feel but they are going above and beyond to fix their mistake


----------



## Michael Myers

sethro02 said:


> grizz man i received your package today....2 out of the 3 heads were completely destroyed..the rage 2 blade is good...the other 2 are bent and broken


Well at least the Rage survived the others were Old heads that were laying around,Good to know they look after packages,Lol...Good to hear..Grizz


----------



## Michael Myers

I am pumped,I Wanna see how the 2 Blade rage does.,I Bet it does well.Grizz


----------



## 0nepin

MarksExtra said:


> Sorry man. I'm a little T'd right now.Didn't mean to come off that way, but...... I just knew I'd be the person to get a dull pack if there were 100 packs sittin there and only one pack was dull....I'd pick it. Sent an email to TT. Don't suppose you've got any tips to sharpening them? a G5 diamond stone?


I used an Arkansas stone and the finished with a smooth pice of ceramic. You can shave with them now.


----------



## ihuntforchrst

since sharpness has been a hot topic recently. Does anyone know if the new shuttle t black ops are sharper than the original. The reason I ask is because they are advertised to be sharper, but I don't see difference in the blade angle.


----------



## doverpack12

It's not the blade angle that changes how sharp they are its the metal composition.


----------



## ihuntforchrst

doverpack12 said:


> It's not the blade angle that changes how sharp they are its the metal composition.


this isn't totally true. metal composition is what determines how long that sharp edge stays. You can make a piece of plastic sharp enough to cut something, but it wont stay sharp very long.

I'm just asking if there is a noticeable difference, or should i just stock up on the original model that are on clearance?


----------



## upserman

Great thread and thanks for all the time and $ to help us. Have you tried the F15??? If not would you like me to send you one?

Thanks again


----------



## fxwg85

upserman said:


> Great thread and thanks for all the time and $ to help us. Have you tried the F15??? If not would you like me to send you one?
> 
> Thanks again


F15 fixed was done. Look at the spread sheet in Seth's sig. I think it is # 31 or 32.


----------



## sethro02

Tomorrows mechanicals will include
Rage 2 blade
Grim reaper razortip wts retest
Grim reaper razorcut wts

Razortip wts retest will not count in the testing


----------



## Michael Myers

sethro02 said:


> Tomorrows mechanicals will include
> Rage 2 blade
> Grim reaper razortip wts retest
> Grim reaper razorcut wts
> 
> Razortip wts retest will not count in the testing


Ooooh a Challenge for the Rage...You do realize if the Rage does Poorly...I Will be Sulking for a Week or So,Might even make my Way up to the Broadhead forum to discuss it...Lol.Grizz


----------



## sethro02

I guess I wont make predictions then cause I dont wanna hurt your feelings...jk


----------



## Michael Myers

sethro02 said:


> I guess I wont make predictions then cause I dont wanna hurt your feelings...jk


I am sitting here watching Kyle Lamore and JJ kolesar Drop Big bucks with there 2 Blade Rages...Dreamseason 11,LOL...I Really hope my Gravediggers get here this Week,I Wannna Kill something with them,Like a Coyote,What time is the Big Test?Have to be sure to be home,Gotta go bait the Bear in the Mornin and Go fishing,Aww shucks...Grizz


----------



## 0nepin

I will take the rage on this one.


----------



## sethro02

Not for sure..early afternoon?


----------



## Michael Myers

sethro02 said:


> Not for sure..early afternoon?


Oh ill be home from fishin 430 am till 8 then bait bear,be home in Central air by 10 ISh,Grizz


----------



## NMhunter

First I want to thank Seth for starting this huge test. I've been curious about so many different heads, and like so many others just can't afford to try all the ones I've wanted to.

I also want to thank Dale= nolimitarchery for submitting his heads and input about them through this process and the recent video! I couldn't wait until Monday, I had to buy some today, and I have never been more excited/anxious to get my hands on a broadhead! Can't wait!
Also, will you be offering replacement blades on the website in the near future?


----------



## buckhunter1

I thought the Rage was already tested?


----------



## swampboss

GrizzlyMan1980 said:


> Seth,I Think if you dont receive that Rage by Tuesday its lost or Stolen,I Sent Slick tricks to Maryland and the Guy got them days ago,Pisses me off,Grizz


Rage can't even penetrate the mail ..... LOL sorry I couldn't help it ...... 
rage are okay .... keeps more of the good broad heads on the shelf for me... opps sorry did it again
really they are okay if that is what you like they all kill if the shot is right


----------



## Rothhar1

good luck seth wil be watching results but looks like its gona be hard to beat a couple here lol thanks great stuff .You the man


----------



## sethro02

Rage chisel and rage titanium extreme was tested..nit the original...your welcome guys glad I could help


----------



## screaminbulls1

0nepin said:


> I haven't even came up with a name for the omen/axe franken bow yet . Im to suggestion on the bow name if anybody got any good idea. My 86 Lb omen is named over kill and and 82lb xforce hf 6 is Mr perfect. My xforce hf ss is named thanksgiving because it's my turkey bow.My guardian is named wisper and my drenalin is named Joe the plumber.


Dr Jekyll and Mr. Hyde, or just Jekyll and Hyde


----------



## Porkrind

Just sitting here waiting on results


----------



## Michael Myers

Porkrind said:


> Just sitting here waiting on results


Might be awhile...I think its early afternoon...I Caught Some Bass for Breki this morning,Baited the Bear and was home by 9 am,Time to Relax in Central air,Gorge and Watch Sports and Type on At...I Love Sundays.Grizz


----------



## Smoknnca

ihuntforchrst said:


> since sharpness has been a hot topic recently. Does anyone know if the new shuttle t black ops are sharper than the original. The reason I ask is because they are advertised to be sharper, but I don't see difference in the blade angle.


Yes black ops are sharper. I have the t's from last year and this year and the new ones are noticeably sharper.


----------



## sethro02

Testing is this afternoon..their will be a small bonus test as well for ur viewing pleasure


----------



## Ned250

The spreadsheet is updated with the Ulmer Edge all steel prototype at the very bottom (not counted in official results).

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AgJEvQwzfDRZdGxzdC15R0JIZDJGQ1J4bVpGV1pTWHc


----------



## sethro02

Thx nick!


----------



## Ou224

elkman406 said:


> 1st of all, thank you Seth for taking the time to do this. Interesting results and very entertaining. Secondly, I concur, inconsistent wood sucks.


Is it sad that I have read all of the posts in this thread closely enough to notice this? Or does no one else think this is funny?

I am gonna go with C...... If it don't have a pic and measurements in it...... Keep scrolling.


----------



## sethro02

ou224 love the sig man!


----------



## sethro02

testing today stay tuned


----------



## Ou224

eltaco said:


> Hey Seth,
> 
> I was just looking at the results of the Shuttle-T and the Terminal-T that you just tested. I see that the Shuttle penetrated 26" and the terminal did 15". The pics don't appear to show 11" difference between the two. Have you changed the way these are being measured, or are the pictures simply deceiving me? Very curious how those two compare since they're the exact same ferrule, just a different blade design.
> 
> Thanks!





sethro02 said:


> ou224 love the sig man!


Thank you! Was well worth the time and expense I went through to design that and share it with the world. Lol

I was very happy with your test and the results of my chosen broadhead. You know there was a time that it was the clear winner in the fixed blade category. 

Keep up the great work.


----------



## Bones816

MarksExtra said:


> Sorry man. I'm a little T'd right now.Didn't mean to come off that way, but...... I just knew I'd be the person to get a dull pack if there were 100 packs sittin there and only one pack was dull....I'd pick it. Sent an email to TT. Don't suppose you've got any tips to sharpening them? a G5 diamond stone?


Mine seemed dull too but I wrote to TT and they returned my e-mail with a video of some tests to perform on the blades. After doing the tests I was satisfied that the blades were sharp. I think it's that single bevel that makes them feel "not so sharp". Unfortunately they don't include an allen wrench with the heads and I don't have one small enough to get the blades out.


----------



## tapout155

Seth, are you still taking donations for testing or are you done? I have a rocket hammerhead i would like to send for testing.


----------



## ole' bowhunter

"


Ned250 said:


> The spreadsheet is updated with the Ulmer Edge all steel prototype at the very bottom (not counted in official results).
> 
> https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AgJEvQwzfDRZdGxzdC15R0JIZDJGQ1J4bVpGV1pTWHc








sethro02 said:


> Thx nick!


Many kudos to you Seth and to you also Ned250. Your updated spreadsheet makes it a snap for this olebowhunter to quickly find how each broad head performed. I also appreciate your adding the web site for each Co.


----------



## GarrickTX

So while we are waiting for results, I would like to ask everyone which broadhead they will most likely be using this season?? Just something to keep the thread going


----------



## seiowabow

Shuttle T black ops

Sent from my DROID4 using Tapatalk 2


----------



## GarrickTX

I think I may go with the ramcat this year


----------



## 170p&ywhitail

If im reading the spread sheet right (hard to look at on my phone) the killzone is in the bottom of the ranks which is dissapointing. I had been thinking of going to this head.


----------



## qmb9015

honestly since in Tn we have a high doe limit i plan on taking my first with the grave digger second with the NAP Braxe and third with the VPA 3 blade 100gr and fourth with a CX torrid and from there the best fixed and the best mechanical will be my heads of choice for when the bucks present themselves now obviously im not gonna just start takin out all the doe's i see before the rut but i usually dont see many bucks so anyways so the doe kills will be pretty spread out


----------



## sethro02

here we go round 10 mechanicals!! 
1.rage 2 blade original
2. grim reaper wts razorcut 
3. grim reaper wts razortip ( this one does not count, it was re test)


----------



## sethro02

yes your reading it right, killzone did not fair well in this


----------



## Timber Troll

GarrickTX said:


> So while we are waiting for results, I would like to ask everyone which broadhead they will most likely be using this season?? Just something to keep the thread going


I think I'm going with the Tru Fire T1 as a primary fixed blade and I picked up some TT Ulmer edge heads and will cary a couple of those too! This testing was awesome!


----------



## 170p&ywhitail

Darn, so the best 2 blade mechanical you tested is the ulmer head? Well the grave digger scored better but its kind of an ugly thing lol!


----------



## sethro02

rage standard 2 blade test results:
2" cut

penetration- 8
durability- 3 ( blades bent need replaced)
dependability- 5
sharp before- 5
sharp after- 3
flight- 5
total score- 29 out of 35 (total penetration, 8")


----------



## bambikiller

man i want one of those rage diggers 124 grains is perfect plus that nasty cut...how do i get my hands on one onepin?


----------



## sethro02

rage standard 2 blade


----------



## sethro02

rage standard 2 blade gel


----------



## nolimitarchery

170p&ywhitail said:


> Darn, so the best 2 blade mechanical you tested is the ulmer head?* Well the grave digger scored better but its kind of an ugly thing lol!*


Thanks...:wink:


----------



## sethro02

Grim Reaper WTS Razorcut test results:
3.625 total cut surface. 2" 3 blade cut

penetration- 8
durability- 5
dependability- 2 ( Grim Reaper never said it wasn't suppose to open on contact)
sharp before- 4
sharp after- 3
flight- 5
total score- 27 out of 35 (total penetration, 8")


----------



## 170p&ywhitail

nolimitarchery said:


> Thanks...:wink:


:mg:sorry no harm ment


----------



## sethro02

wts razorcut


----------



## GarrickTX

what year omen are you shooting?? 61 lbs getting 328 fps is sick with that weight arrow!


----------



## sethro02

wts razorcut gel


----------



## nolimitarchery

170p&ywhitail said:


> :mg:sorry no harm ment


None taken.


----------



## sethro02

Grim Reaper WTS Razortip ***RE TEST*** SCORE DOES NOT COUNT**** test results:
3.625" total cut surface, 2" 3 blade diameter

penetration- 9
durability- 5
dependability- 2 ( grim reaper never said it wasnt suppose to open on impact)
sharp before- 5
sharp after- 3
flight- 5
total score- 29 out of 35 (total penetration, 9")


----------



## sethro02

wts razortip retest


----------



## sethro02

wts razortip retest, gel


----------



## TimmyZ7

sethro02 said:


> wts razorcut gel
> View attachment 1425642


Hey Onepin, how many tricks can you fit in there? :behindsof :jksign:

Looks about right...!


----------



## seiowabow

TimmyZ7 said:


> Hey Onepin, how many tricks can you fit in there? :behindsof :jksign:
> 
> Looks about right...!


About four tricks or eight mechanical that didnt open.

Sent from my DROID4 using Tapatalk 2


----------



## Boghdóir

And the original Rage takes down the Grim Reaper. That's gotta knock some smugness off of some folks.


----------



## Boghdóir

Sorry, I guess the score is the same, I thought the Rage scored a 30. Poor reading comprehension.


----------



## aight its jake

how is it that the wts and the 1 3/8" penetrated the same. the only thing i noticed different was the 1 3/8 looked to start to open faster.


----------



## Boghdóir

I don't know. Same thing with the Slicks, the bigger ones went in further. Maybe the smashing through the wood.


----------



## sethro02

Hey guys i video taped round 10 mechanicals...thought you would like to see the impact.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HKzfsKJBwj8&feature=youtu.be


----------



## sethro02

it didnt. razortip 1 3/8 had 9.5" total penetration


----------



## TimmyZ7

Well I don't know about you guys but Seth is costing me money. How many more broadheads do I really need to buy?!? I sure hope I fill all of my tags, lol.


----------



## Boghdóir

Thanks; and I am subscribed to your You Tube Channel.


----------



## TimmyZ7

sethro02 said:


> Hey guys i video taped round 10 mechanicals...thought you would like to see the impact.
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HKzfsKJBwj8&feature=youtu.be


That Reaper hit hard! It had a loud impact.


----------



## sethro02

i got box of em' i'll give you a deal on...

yes everyone subscribe please...this was just a test video...the next big testing im gonna try will be all on tape so you dont have to sift through all the posts


----------



## TimmyZ7

sethro02 said:


> i got box of em' i'll give you a deal on...
> 
> yes everyone subscribe please...this was just a test video...the next big testing im gonna try will be all on tape so you dont have to sift through all the posts


Subscribed! PM me with a price on them Reapers.


----------



## sethro02

pm sent


----------



## TimmyZ7

Payment sent...which tip style are you sending me?


----------



## sethro02

im sending you wts razortip
and wts razorcut...is that cool?
pm me your address


----------



## TimmyZ7

Either is fine but I love the Razor cuts because I can sharpen that spear tip and it penetrates great! Thanks man, this is what I expected to see as far as test results. I am very satisfied with them especially considering the hide actually does open them faster on entry then the wood. Good stuff. Looking forward to the youtube channel vids.


----------



## IowaAssassin

Any idea on when any of the WASP broadheads will be tested? Have a friend who swears by the Jackhammers and I'm curious how they"ll do.


----------



## sethro02

timmyz7...i have one of each from grim reaper so you get one of each, sorry i dont have to razorcut's...is their anything else you need/want

wasp bullets has been tested....trying to wrap this testing up but may throw in jackhammers


----------



## IowaAssassin

Knew about the bullet, more interested in their mechanicals. Thanks for the testing again, btw.


----------



## UTGrad

sethro02 said:


> Hey guys i video taped round 10 mechanicals...thought you would like to see the impact.
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HKzfsKJBwj8&feature=youtu.be


The WTS definitely pounded the target. Good video.


----------



## TimmyZ7

PM sent Seth.


----------



## 0nepin

TimmyZ7 said:


> Hey Onepin, how many tricks can you fit in there? :behindsof :jksign:
> 
> Looks about right...!


Haha alot no dout about it. The results looks exactly like the damage on the turkey I killed with one.timmyz7 let me know when the rage digger shows up.just got home from doing some sight fishing in st Joe bay for red fish.


----------



## IndianaPSE

Nice job on the video channel, Seth. I'll have to look you up = I'm in Fort Wayne and come to Indy on biz often. PM me if you're ever up this way, I hunt a gazillion properties and would gladly share a hunt with you - after all the work you've shared on our behalf.

Indy


----------



## UTGrad

sethro02 said:


> wts razorcut gel
> View attachment 1425642


That is straight up gnarly! It does look familiar


----------



## Michael Myers

sethro02 said:


> rage standard 2 blade test results:
> 2" cut
> 
> penetration- 8
> durability- 3 ( blades bent need replaced)
> dependability- 5
> sharp before- 5
> sharp after- 3
> flight- 5
> total score- 29 out of 35 (total penetration, 8")


Great Work Seth,Figured it would be Bent and a Little dull after hititng that,Did the Blade on the Front bend,The tip?Grizz


----------



## sethro02

indianapse i will look you up...my home is in shelbyville which is about 20 miles southeast of indy...i got no problem trading a few hunts with the locals! I have property in southern indiana as well, down by the ohio...borders 60,000acres of hoosier national


----------



## fxwg85

Seth been following along the whole way. Has been VERY informative and fun to watch. Just wanted to say thanks for all the hard work you have done.


----------



## sethro02

nope tip did not bend....one expansion blade bent bad, the other only bent at the end. ferrule spun true


----------



## sethro02

your welcome guys. cant wait to start a new test...i also cant wait to kill deer with my broadhead of choice...whatever that will be


----------



## Michael Myers

sethro02 said:


> nope tip did not bend....one expansion blade bent bad, the other only bent at the end. ferrule spun true


Nice,I Actually thought the tip might bend..I Know my Practice head did,I Shot them into my Cement wall,Lol...I Was seeing how bad they would bend,Alot!!!Grizz


----------



## IndianaPSE

sethro02 said:


> indianapse i will look you up...my home is in shelbyville which is about 20 miles southeast of indy...i got no problem trading a few hunts with the locals! I have property in southern indiana as well, down by the ohio...borders 60,000acres of hoosier national


PM sent...


----------



## sethro02

Pm's answered


----------



## UTGrad

I noticed the original Grim Reaper WTS tested that failed was a Mathews Edition version. What did Grim Reaper say was the cause?


----------



## k&j8

GarrickTX said:


> So while we are waiting for results, I would like to ask everyone which broadhead they will most likely be using this season?? Just something to keep the thread going


Shuttle T Black Ops and Ulmer Edge. I have never been a mechanical guy but will be giving them a try this year. Also, can't wait until the chisel tip Grave Diggers come out as there will be room in my quiver for a couple of them as well!!


----------



## 442fps

No Razortricks ?


----------



## Yorklobster

I lived in Madison Indiana before I moved to Maine when I was 7. Is your land in souther IN anywhere near there?


----------



## Northern Archer

I Have 2 Packs coming to me from Dale,But maybe can Pick more up from you if needed.Hows the Fishin right now?And any chance your Camp has a Bull tag left for Archery?Me and a 3 Buddies are trying to find a Camp with a Bull tag for Moose,We did not put in for the Draw,I Was supposed to be in Red Lake Working on Nungesser Lake,Let me Know,Grizz 

Hey Grizz, sorry about the delay in responding. Fishing this entire year has been great! No tags left for this year or next as the Moose hunts are now sold out to 2014. It is tough getting drawn up this way, I can't even use our own tags for me and my wife, part of the rules as an outfitter. I have applied for the draw but no results until next month, which sucks when you are trying to plan.
When you or anybody else need some Gravediggers let me know.


----------



## Michael Myers

Northern Archer said:


> I Have 2 Packs coming to me from Dale,But maybe can Pick more up from you if needed.Hows the Fishin right now?And any chance your Camp has a Bull tag left for Archery?Me and a 3 Buddies are trying to find a Camp with a Bull tag for Moose,We did not put in for the Draw,I Was supposed to be in Red Lake Working on Nungesser Lake,Let me Know,Grizz
> 
> Hey Grizz, sorry about the delay in responding. Fishing this entire year has been great! No tags left for this year or next as the Moose hunts are now sold out to 2014. It is tough getting drawn up this way, I can't even use our own tags for me and my wife, part of the rules as an outfitter. I have applied for the draw but no results until next month, which sucks when you are trying to plan.
> When you or anybody else need some Gravediggers let me know.


Right on,Thanks.I Think we are sol for a Bull tag unless they have leftovers come Aug 20th and i can find one for 16 b,Just north Of Thunder Bay,I Will let you know if i need some more Gravediggers,Went scouting last night,Actually to bait my bear bait and ended up spotting 2 Very nice Bucks a 10 pt and a 12 Pt and a Nice 8 pt,Grazing at dusk....We always take good bucks there.Cheers,Grizz


----------



## 206Moose

Was the ulmer edge 100 or 125 grain?


----------



## sethro02

Grim reaper said they had heat treating issues

Ulmer was 100 grain
Ulmer prototype was 125.

Still have yet to get razortricks


----------



## sethro02

Not familiar with madison in.


----------



## Ned250

Spreadsheet updated with latest tests - https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AgJEvQwzfDRZdGxzdC15R0JIZDJGQ1J4bVpGV1pTWHc


----------



## sethro02

Thx nick


----------



## flopduster

I wonder how the gravedigger would penetrate if you took the expander blades off....


----------



## sethro02

Gonna shoot for rd 10 fixed tonight


----------



## Boghdóir

What's in round 10 fixed?


----------



## sethro02

So far all cx broadheads..unless a couple show up in mail


----------



## Bowhuntr64

Boghdóir said:


> I don't know. Same thing with the Slicks, the bigger ones went in further. Maybe the smashing through the wood.


It has to be the inconsistency of the medium--either the plywood or the gel.


----------



## seiowabow

Just got my shuttle t black ops in the mail. Pretty disappointed in the sharpness. 

Sent from my DROID4 using Tapatalk 2


----------



## manboy

seiowabow said:


> Just got my shuttle t black ops in the mail. Pretty disappointed in the sharpness.
> 
> Sent from my DROID4 using Tapatalk 2


ya so sharp they were #2 on the penetration factor......


----------



## sethro02

Out of all the ones I bought none of em could shave hair but they were still sharp


----------



## seiowabow

Yes manboy i am lying about the sharpness for some reason. @seth. They are somewhat sharp, just not what i expected. Shouldn't be a problem to sharpen them.

Sent from my DROID4 using Tapatalk 2


----------



## sethro02

I did notice on mine anyways that the ferrule was extremely sharp


----------



## seiowabow

The ferrule is extremely sharp. 1 of the heads was much sharper than the other 2.

Sent from my DROID4 using Tapatalk 2


----------



## sethro02

Dang man sorry...i love mine! Shaving vanes at 50 yds


----------



## Smoknnca

Next broadhead sent. Hope it at least hits middle of the pack. Sabermaxx with vap on it's way.
http://outdooroutfitters.ws/image/cache/data/product-sabermaxx-500x500.jpg


----------



## 0nepin

Third page ?


----------



## sethro02

yea i guess im slacking with testing...i decided to check my trail cams instead...also im making a video on how to make the raging ulmer


----------



## Buckbadger

seiowabow said:


> Just got my shuttle t black ops in the mail. Pretty disappointed in the sharpness.
> 
> Sent from my DROID4 using Tapatalk 2


When I first started using Shuttles a few years back, I was skeptical of the sharpness as many are. But believe me, after seeing results first hand, they are sharp enough! And I'm using the originals that are not as sharp as the Black Op's you got. And I still don't have a problem shooting them, knowing what they can do.


----------



## 0nepin

sethro02 said:


> yea i guess im slacking with testing...i decided to check my trail cams instead...also im making a video on how to make the raging ulmer


Any big bucks? They are hitting the minerals hard here.


----------



## sethro02

for the first time ever i have 2 that are already pope and young and its end of july!


----------



## Laplacesdemon

Are you planning to shoot any of the Hypershock or Vortex heads I sent? I intended to donate them but if you are not going to test them I will cover the cost of shipping them back to me. The 2.75" cut Hypershock in particular would be of interest to the several fans here of huge-cut mechanicals.


----------



## sethro02

yes i do want to shoot them...i was just waiting on a couple more heads to make it a full round of testing, if that's ok


----------



## deerwhackmaster

You must be having a lot of fun


----------



## sethro02

Of course im having fun..now I wanna shoot something


----------



## 0nepin

Laplacesdemon said:


> Are you planning to shoot any of the Hypershock or Vortex heads I sent? I intended to donate them but if you are not going to test them I will cover the cost of shipping them back to me. The 2.75" cut Hypershock in particular would be of interest to the several fans here of huge-cut mechanicals.


Yes I would like to see what they do.


----------



## Porkrind

Onepin, have you ever thought about trying the FOC from NAP?


----------



## sethro02

sorry for the delay in testing guys...been finishing a big landscape project and we are going out of town tomorrow


----------



## Michael Myers

sethro02 said:


> sorry for the delay in testing guys...been finishing a big landscape project and we are going out of town tomorrow


I hear ya,I am a Cerified Irriagtion Technician and installed for 13 Years,Being a Foreman when you have useless Help,Not fun.Grizz


----------



## Yorklobster

@ Grizz
I have a toro irrigation system at my house. It won't friggin shut off after the 7 zones are done??? Any idea? I've reset it multiple times.



GrizzlyMan1980 said:


> I hear ya,I am a Cerified Irriagtion Technician and installed for 13 Years,Being a Foreman when you have useless Help,Not fun.Grizz


----------



## Michael Myers

Yorklobster said:


> @ Grizz
> I have a toro irrigation system at my house. It won't friggin shut off after the 7 zones are done??? Any idea? I've reset it multiple times.


Pm,Me sounds like a Wiring problem or dirt in the Master valve or the last zone,It prolly has dirt in the valve Hard to diagnose with the info you gave me,Also could be the Controler.Grizz


----------



## 0nepin

Porkrind said:


> Onepin, have you ever thought about trying the FOC from NAP?


I had some since last year but 170gr and that they are over the top stopped me from using them , but me and timmyz7 are working on a franken head using there blades , project BANE.this is timmyz7 idea.


----------



## Porkrind

Onepin, They are just the size blades that you two need! lol


----------



## sethro02

Here we go!!!!!!! Round 10!!! Fixed!
1. cx nativ
2. cx quad pro
3. cx mayhem

I'll give you one hint! their were parts flying on one of these!


----------



## sethro02

Carbon Express Nativ test results:
2.75" total cut surface, 1 1/8" cutting diameter

penetration- 8.5
durability- 5
dependability- 5
sharp before- 4
sharp after- 3
flight- 5
total score- 30.5 out of 35 (total penetration, 8.5")


----------



## sethro02

CX Nativ


----------



## sethro02

CX Nativ Gel


----------



## sethro02

Carbon Express Quad Pro test results:
3.75" total cut surface, 1"x1" cutting diameter

penetration- 8.5
durability- 5
dependability- 5
sharp before- 4
sharp after- 3
flight- 5
total score- 30.5 out of 35 (total penetration, 8.5")


----------



## sethro02

cx quad pro gel


----------



## sethro02

Carbon Express Mayhem test results:
1" cutting diameter

penetration- 10
durability- 0 FAIL!!!! ( all blades broke off!)
dependability- 3 ( gave it a 3 because blades broke on last medium)
sharp before- 4
sharp after- 3
flight- 5
total score- 25 out of 35 (total penetration, 16")


----------



## sethro02

CX mayhem damage


----------



## sethro02

Round 10 Fixed Aftermath


----------



## sethro02

Sorry it took so long to get another test guys...im busy, busy , busy


----------



## sethro02

This is the cx mayhem exit i forgot to post


----------



## fxwg85

That ain't good!!LOL


----------



## Yorklobster

If they renamed the ulner edge "wicked death crazy bloody devistate" maybe more people would buy it! Lol


----------



## 0nepin

sethro02 said:


> CX mayhem damage


Did the arrow get damage on this one.and what in the bucket?


----------



## sethro02

haha yeah....

at least the cx mayhem penetrated good :behindsof


----------



## sethro02

yes my arrow got damaged, the broadhead pushed back into it.......that is a "lucky buck" bucket...only the best mineral ever! It smells like pixie sticks! but it does not taste like pixie sticks!


----------



## 0nepin

That suck. What spine are you shooting?


----------



## sethro02

340 spine for this test


----------



## sethro02

this arrow had a couple shots on it already but their was no damage before i shot it.. i put the bar adapter on it for "extra" support,,,,but.....that didnt work


----------



## Ned250

sethro02 said:


> This is the cx mayhem exit i forgot to post
> View attachment 1427981


Think of the damage that would cause by exploding inside the animal. I'm buying 6 packs right now.


----------



## sethro02

Haha...a true expanding head!


----------



## 0nepin

I think I have 6 easton axcel 340 if you want them?


----------



## IowaAssassin

Actually impressed the CX heads did that well. Always seem kinda "cheap" feeling. I guess I am comparing them to their shafts, from personal experience their arrows are very good, expected more from them I guess. Just wondering, how many arrows have you sent to the garbage bin since testing?


----------



## MarkBaHoi

Sorry that head ruined your arrow 

I use those 'expanding' models for vermin. I got 5 packs of 3 for $1 a pack.

I've killed a LOT of deer with the nativs and 2 w/ the quad pros. The quad pros I've used on 2 does and they leave almost identical holes as a slick trick!


----------



## sethro02

Quads seem pretty tough...i have trashed 13 arrows


----------



## sethro02

I shouldnt say trashed..i can cut em down to 22" and let my son shoot them...he has a very expensive arrow collection...he wants my fmj camo shafts but I may sell them when he is not here


----------



## MarkBaHoi

I like the nativs, I put a wicked edge on them and they literally slip through deer. I shot 2 does 2X thinking I missed as they never flinched when the arrows went through. 

They used to be 90 grain first cuts. Best head for the $ out imho. I got the a 3 pack of them for $11 tmd.


----------



## IowaAssassin

That's funny, cut mine down for my son too! He's six and a better instinctive shooter than me already, lol! Looks like I've underestimated the CX heads, keep a couple for critters in my quiver, cheaper than small game points and you can usually re-use them. Looks like your son won't need any arrows for a while.


----------



## sethro02

Nativ held in there with silverflame$11 or $90....


----------



## IowaAssassin

Do you spin the heads before you shoot? Just wondering, not saying it would effect the head at 20 yds, just wondering if there have been any noticeable differences between heads,


----------



## sethro02

I spin every one..so far so good...i bought 3 dozen axis and used the straightest ones


----------



## UTGrad

Seth,

I looked at the spread sheet and noticed the Grim Reaper Razortip WS 2" is listed as the head that failed, but that actually that was a Mathews Edition WS head (gold ferrule) and not a Razortip head. Just an observation and don't want to confuse people.


----------



## Boghdóir

My one experience with Carbon Express was that I bought a pack of XT 4s and not one of them will spin, and of course they fly all over the place. I emailed them asking if this was normal, no response.


----------



## Grubs11

Just stumbled across this thread and so have not taken the time to read through all 105 pages...yet...but would be interested in seeing how Red Feather Archery's Phoenix performs in this test.


----------



## ORROSS334

Grubs11 said:


> Just stumbled across this thread and so have not taken the time to read through all 105 pages...yet...but would be interested in seeing how Red Feather Archery's Phoenix performs in this test.


I have asked this as well but have yet to see anyone send one in....I sent in an f15 and would like to see the Pheonix as well as they are very similar to the VAP


----------



## qmb9015

The f15 has been tested as far as the Phoenix i dont think it has been tested if it hasn't been tested pm Seth about sending him one if he is still accepting heads to test


----------



## qmb9015

A little off topic but if anyone wants some cx nativ's pm me and maybe we can work somethin out i have 3 i dont want...still a great thread seth let us kno when you do another video


----------



## sethro02

I guess I got lucky with mine spinning true..flight score is a gimme since its 20 yds...this was intended for 30 yds at beginning...whats the difference in those grim reapers besides ferrule color..i was inder the impression they were built the same


----------



## TimmyZ7

The Mathews edition has a different tip then the other reapers but the ferrule & functioning is the same.


----------



## sethro02

Gotcha


----------



## GarrickTX

When you do this next test are you going to have a camera near the target when you shoot? I think it would be helpful for flight/sound difference and would give us an Idea of how the broadhead sounds in flight.


----------



## sethro02

Yea it will be something like that


----------



## goathollow

GarrickTX said:


> When you do this next test are you going to have a camera near the target when you shoot? I think it would be helpful for flight/sound difference and would give us an Idea of how the broadhead sounds in flight.


Seth is welcome to perform his next test how ever he wants to and what ever he does I am sure it will be interesting and relevant. However, IMO the noise of the arrow in flight isn't as important as the noise of the bow at release. Its a simply matter of mathmatics.

Sound travels at 768 mph (at sea level) or 1126 ft/sec. That means it takes 5/100's of a second for the sound of the bow at release to reach the deer at 20yds. An arrow traveling at 300 ft/sec would take 2/10's of a second to reach the deer at 20 yds. That means the sound of the bow at release reaches the deer 4 times sooner than the the arrow. So, by the time the deer hears the arrow even half way in flight it has already heard the bow and has had time to react. I have no scientific research to prove the point but my guess is that deer don't react to the arrow noise nearly as much as the sound of the bow at release. If sound is measured it seems it should be at the bow at release not during the flight of the arrow and certainly not at impact. And this says nothing for the decible level difference (e.g. the bow noise is louder than the arrow noise) and a loud noise is more likely to startle a deer than a soft noice.


----------



## sethro02

Thanks guys..i have a couple tests that I think moat of you will enjiy


----------



## Ned250

UTGrad said:


> Seth,
> 
> I looked at the spread sheet and noticed the Grim Reaper Razortip WS 2" is listed as the head that failed, but that actually that was a Mathews Edition WS head (gold ferrule) and not a Razortip head. Just an observation and don't want to confuse people.


Fixed. Also added the tests from last night - https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AgJEvQwzfDRZdGxzdC15R0JIZDJGQ1J4bVpGV1pTWHc


----------



## Kstigall

Shouldernuke! said:


> And yes they are more *efficant killers with 458 than an 06*.. Secondly yes todays bows are more efficant than those of 40 years ago and way way faster if you shot back then you knew that but im guessing you didnt and are only guessing about the shooters from 40 years ago.The fact they are more efficiant and faster is the whole point but that said they are more efficiant at thier highest draw weights not lowest .Any pro can tell you that. Also no one said anything about shooting a bow too long for them.BTW i was winning IBO events with those supposed to heavy weights back then as was everyone else with propor fitting AND TUNED heavy equipment .Accuracy was in the person with the best yardage estimate btw no binocs allowed and shoot sequince .
> 
> *You ASSUME to much in your post ab out why or what we were shoot like, not everyone was shooting poorly or to much weight or too long a bow thats the myth that todays archers want to use to justifie or make thier generation seem some how superior and its not going to happen here with me.*


You are full of it! Most people after sighting in a 458 would be flinching and jerking making them MUCH less effective deer killers! I'm not guessing about anything! The winner of the first Vegas tournament is someone I have known since I started bow hunting and seriously shooting in '78. You have no idea with whom I've shot and learned from over the last 34+ years. My first "coaches" were national and state champion field and 3D archers. From day one I learned to execute shots with "back tension". You couldn't have been winning IBO events 40 years ago because the IBO didn't exist! A lot of the old school "ideas" were blown out of the water some years ago. 

*YOU* are the one making foolish assumptions!
"todays archers"? You and I are close to the same age. The difference between you and I is the fact that I'm not stuck in the '70's or '80's. I've continued to develop and learn. I got news for you current archers and archery gear are infinitely better. Shooting a 300 now is NOTHING even for me. Knocking down 58+ X's with BHFS gear? No biggee, even for us older guys. Rodger Willett smoked the Gold Cup in '11 and I can about guarantee you he didn't do it by doing things the way he did them when he started shooting IBO in the '80's. I full well remember the 80-90 lb. compounds used in 3D back in the day. Folks didn't go away from them for no reason. They stopped using them because they scored HIGHER with less draw weight and not because they are less of a man than you! If any of the top archers felt using 80 lb. bows had an advantage they would use them. 

You are full of BS and old ignorant beliefs..........................


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## GarrickTX

I understand all of that but this isn't a bow test it is a broadhead test, in other words if the bow was perfect in tune/quiet/consistent, how does each broadhead stack up against each other. I would like to know which ones whistle vs the ones that have hardly any sound. Not trying to argue with you, but I think you missunderstood my first post.


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## GarrickTX

GarrickTX said:


> I understand all of that but this isn't a bow test it is a broadhead test, in other words if the bow was perfect in tune/quiet/consistent, how does each broadhead stack up against each other. I would like to know which ones whistle vs the ones that have hardly any sound. Not trying to argue with you, but I think you missunderstood my first post.


^^ @ GoatHollow


----------



## 0nepin

Bump


----------



## bowtech88swack

superb thread seth... I feel for a novice like myself, that doesn't have much experience shooting broadheads, this is a great tool to help narrow down a broadhead selection. I salute you!

This is the first post I read when I get on AT!! It's like my daily broadhead fix!


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## Rothhar1

Kstigall said:


> You are full of it! Most people after sighting in a 458 would be flinching and jerking making them MUCH less effective deer killers! I'm not guessing about anything! The winner of the first Vegas tournament is someone I have known since I started bow hunting and seriously shooting in '78. You have no idea with whom I've shot and learned from over the last 34+ years. My first "coaches" were national and state champion field and 3D archers. From day one I learned to execute shots with "back tension". You couldn't have been winning IBO events 40 years ago because the IBO didn't exist! A lot of the old school "ideas" were blown out of the water some years ago.
> 
> *YOU* are the one making foolish assumptions!
> "todays archers"? You and I are close to the same age. The difference between you and I is the fact that I'm not stuck in the '70's or '80's. I've continued to develop and learn. I got news for you current archers and archery gear are infinitely better. Shooting a 300 now is NOTHING even for me. Knocking down 58+ X's with BHFS gear? No biggee, even for us older guys. Rodger Willett smoked the Gold Cup in '11 and I can about guarantee you he didn't do it by doing things the way he did them when he started shooting IBO in the '80's. I full well remember the 80-90 lb. compounds used in 3D back in the day. Folks didn't go away from them for no reason. They stopped using them because they scored HIGHER with less draw weight and not because they are less of a man than you! If any of the top archers felt using 80 lb. bows had an advantage they would use them.
> 
> You are full of BS and old ignorant beliefs..........................


I can tell you the same I said almost 40 years ago and BTW I was at the first nationals triple crown of the IBO at Aurora IL. , Bedford IN and then at the old grounds in OH . You sir are as well as you said full of it.I have shot and I am friends with the likes of the Rimmers , Burly hall ,and the likes and have shot IBO and weekend 3d shoots all over the country with the likes of them.The only thing that was blown out of the water is the new gear available and The skills ,yardage estimation and body control /strength to shoot a top end preforming bow are still the very skills they were back then . So in fact the only reason people are scoring high is because there is an scoring system there was never a 11 /12 ring in the early years of the IBO and ASA and the like you may want to get your facts strait first before posting again . 

The only one here full of BS is you youngster. BTW my last triple crown Championship was just 5 years ago and that was the last year I shot IBO . Now go get coached some more you will need it . BTW I am one of todays archers just not a wimpy one more thing as well we are not talking about shooting a 300 gr arrow at 3d or spot target with 60# we are talking about optimizing and using the most bow you can comfortably to kill game instead of wound it or stick in a shoulder bone because we are shooting tiny arrows and limp wristed bows with extremely low poundage. Now there are some more facts that every hunter should strive for and thist is clean kills with as much bow as they can handle .Now you can become even more uncomfortable with my posts because they dont fit your deer hunting archery world.


----------



## GregBS

Can we get back to relevant things like Broad Head Test results? "My **** is bigger!!" contests are for kids guys, not men in there late 50s/early 60s...


----------



## Rothhar1

GregBS said:


> View attachment 1429006
> 
> 
> Can we get back to relevant things like Broad Head Test results? "My **** is bigger!!" contests are for kids guys, not men in there late 50s/early 60s...


Agreed some just can not take it when thier way is contradicted showing that there is other ways than thiers I get that .On targets whatever i fine ,but we all owe the animals we hunt the swiftest deepest hardest hitting shaft and BH we send to them its our reason for being out there and going lite weight always ends up on here in the I lost a deer thread or did not get penetration threa . Think what that looks like to the Non hunting public !


----------



## 12RingKing

So, I'm way too far behind....I saw the Spreadsheet! Good job on that BTW.

How did the SOlid broadheads fair? Have they even been tested yet?


----------



## aight its jake

sethro, did you take the expander ring off the 1 3/8 reaper and put it on the whitetail special to try it out?


----------



## sethro02

Solid briadheads still havent showed up..someone said he is on vacation..i did not do that expander ring thing I just shot the grims as they showed up. Also ur welcome to the newbies that found this helpful..i never heard any heads whistle some were more like a whoosh.


----------



## screaminbulls1

It looks as though the top 10 have held their respective spots for a while now. They will be tough to beat. Is there any other heads out there that you want to try Seth?


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## sethro02

Ummm well im getting solid broadheads I think...wasp was suppose to contact me but havent heard from them so I thinks its safe to say we will be wrapping up soon...i still have a sonoran 2 blade to shoot as well..some have asked about a razortrick...hopefullh I can do my new test before deer season


----------



## sethro02

I may do some bonus tests...a few 125 grainers and ulmer proto from 50yds


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## sethro02

154000 views are u kidding me!?


----------



## bginvestor

sethro02 said:


> I may do some bonus tests...a few 125 grainers and ulmer proto from 50yds


Seth, how do you plan to grade for 50 yards? Are you adding any more grading criteria? Thx


----------



## bginvestor

sethro02 said:


> 154000 views are u kidding me!?


Your almost famous. Can I get your autograph? Lol


----------



## Boghdóir

I think 100,000 of them are from me! I am, to quote my girlfriend, "obsessed" with broadheads. I have read every post. Whew.


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## sethro02

No more grading criteria just simply showing you what a couple h#ads can do downrange for now


----------



## Grizz1219

Way to go Seth!!!! Thanks again!!


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## josh_bovaird

Hey im just curious have you tried the Ragediggers onepin made up in the franken heads section. Im thinking about having him make me a set and was wondering about them. Im a color blind hunter and want to put a nice hole in them so I can find the blood trail better or watch em drop sooner.


----------



## josh_bovaird

Hey im just curious have you tried the Ragediggers onepin made up in the franken heads section. Im thinking about having him make me a set and was wondering about them. Im a color blind hunter and want to put a nice hole in them so I can find the blood trail better or watch em drop sooner.


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## sethro02

I have bot tried them yet but me and onepin are coming up with a frankenhead test only!


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## S&S Archery

sethro02 said:


> Ummm well im getting solid broadheads I think...wasp was suppose to contact me but havent heard from them so I thinks its safe to say we will be wrapping up soon...i still have a sonoran 2 blade to shoot as well..some have asked about a razortrick...hopefullh I can do my new test before deer season


Seth,
Have some heads in the mail today for you, you should have them in a couple days. I'm excited to see what my head will do against all the others.

Steve
Solid Broadhead Company


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## sethro02

Thx steve!


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## TimmyZ7

I definitely want to see the S30V put to the test! Looking forward to these results vs. the GK. A good challenge for bragging rights.


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## 12RingKing

TimmyZ7 said:


> I definitely want to see the S30V put to the test! Looking forward to these results vs. the GK. A good challenge for bragging rights.


I think they'll be similar. Maybe a slight edge to the solid cause of the bleeders.


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## Gypsy Rover

Excllent job Seth...I have really enjoyed this thread.


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## Smoknnca

Hope to see a few more test rounds b4 my elk hunt in September. Thanks for all your effort and time Seth.


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## henro

I'm surprised Steelforce hasn't offered up one of the single bevels based off their phathead yet for the testing? alwayslookin?


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## sethro02

Ive been in close contact with steelfotce..we may work something out..i just had a small getaway so ill get back into here soon


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## josh_bovaird

sethro02 said:


> I have bot tried them yet but me and onepin are coming up with a frankenhead test only!


Sweet cant wait to see the results so I can make up my mind


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## TimmyZ7

henro said:


> I'm surprised Steelforce hasn't offered up one of the single bevels based off their phathead yet for the testing? alwayslookin?


I was thinking the same thing Henro. It would make sense considering the single bevels ability to split bone it should blast through the wood with no problem.


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## pseshooter84

Those broadheads are garbage, I know from 2 bad experiences. The smaller diameter grim reapers are amazing but stay away from the so called "white tail specials" they sure are special! lol...........
>Feedback on the grim reaper wts broadheads


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## ORROSS334

TimmyZ7 said:


> I was thinking the same thing Henro. It would make sense considering the single bevels ability to split bone it should blast through the wood with no problem.


I think that is the beauty of the Red Feather Pheonix broadhead. I just picked up a pack and they hit hard


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## sethro02

Ill look into red feather


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## sethro02

tttt


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## chuckq777

Did you ever shoot a Field Point for the test?


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## owmygulay

chuckq777 said:


> Did you ever shoot a Field Point for the test?


That's a good idea.


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## 0nepin

chuckq777 said:


> Did you ever shoot a Field Point for the test?


No but he did shoot the closest thing to a field tip ,slicktrick standard . Jk


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## sethro02

i promise my next test will have a fieldpoint....

i have some heads for sale in the classifieds guys...
st standard
grizztrick 2
exodus swept
easton full metal jackets camo


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## UTGrad

pseshooter84 said:


> Those broadheads are garbage, I know from 2 bad experiences. The smaller diameter grim reapers are amazing but stay away from the so called "white tail specials" they sure are special! lol...........
> >Feedback on the grim reaper wts broadheads


What happened?


----------



## 0nepin

pseshooter84 said:


> Those broadheads are garbage, I know from 2 bad experiences. The smaller diameter grim reapers are amazing but stay away from the so called "white tail specials" they sure are special! lol...........
> >Feedback on the grim reaper wts broadheads


Best turkey head I have used.


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## Boghdóir

I don't think the field point is going to go in as far as some people have supposed. I say it gets a 6 in penetration, 1 in sharpness before and after, 5 in durability 5 in dependability. 5 in flight. Total score 23. I'm calling it!


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## Rothhar1

Hay seth do me a favor please shoot a 100 and 125 gr head into the test medi and then post !! Thanks seth


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## Viper69

I guess its a good thing I have a bunch of Grizztrick 1's


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## sethro02

Shouldernuke you mean 100 and 125 fp?


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## sethro02

Onepin I may use those arrows your sending me for franken test whatcha think?


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## 0nepin

sethro02 said:


> Onepin I may use those arrows your sending me for franken test whatcha think?


Sounds great Seth .they should be there middle to late next week.


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## nolimitarchery

I just wanted to let everyone know the replacement blade packs are now available on the website for the Grave Digger.

Thanks
Dale


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## Rothhar1

sethro02 said:


> Shouldernuke you mean 100 and 125 fp?


Yes Field points !!


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## sethro02

Thx dale..

Ok shouldernuke

Should ve testing in next couple days...some will be uofficial like the prototypeulmer being shot long range


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## Blockcaver

Test 100 gr field points of several different diameters (shaft size vs oversize). Likely to yield bigger variation in penetration than 100 gr vs 125 gr field points of equal to shaft diameter.


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## phantom1

Seth, thanks so much for doing all these tests and posting it! There probably isn't a more entertaining topic among bowhunters and certainly not a more emotional topic!.....as you are surely discovering!!!haha! Keep smiling or some of these guys will drive you looney!

I haven't read all 107 pages yet, but I had a couple questions. A few years ago I read some tests that were much like yours and also very believable, as yours are. In those tests the Rocket Steelhead 125 grain easily beat the 100 grain version. Yes, it is a little heavier, but the full size Pathfinder point may have been more significant. Also, the G5 TekanII easily beat the current black Tekan. Again, the point design is different(stouter looking). Both Tekan designs were 100 grain.

Have you or do you plan to test the Steelhead 125 grain and the TekanII? Just dreaming outloud here!


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## sethro02

Had no plans on doing the 125 grain steel...was trying to kerp it 100 grains except for a couole special tests here and there..as for the silver tekans..arent those basically extinct? Thanks for tuning in


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## 0nepin

Seth I have not shipped the arrows but I will Monday and I'm sending you blades to make your own rage digger. I'm only going to send arrow over 27".this last week has been crazy to say the least.lost a good friend in a fire, broke a bone in my foot and had to work 13 days straight .but I'm off tomarrow and Monday and I will get back on track.


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## sethro02

Sorry bout your foot man..take ur time I appreciate everything..ill send u a raging ulmer


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## sethro02

Mail call ........solid broadhead!!!!! Thanks steve speck!


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## lung smasher

I stumbled across this thread the other day. Has took me a while to read up to this point. I really have to say this is the best thing i have read on at so far. Thank you sethro this has been very helpful on my broadhead selection for this year.


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## TimmyZ7

sethro02 said:


> Mail call ........solid broadhead!!!!! Thanks steve speck!


When are you testing this?


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## sethro02

Beginning of the week! Sorry been busy!


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## Boghdóir

I am surprised nobody has said I was wrong? Anybody have a different theory, or does everyone think I am right?


----------



## Boghdóir

Boghdóir said:


> I am surprised nobody has said I was wrong? Anybody have a different theory, or does everyone think I am right?





Boghdóir said:


> I don't think the field point is going to go in as far as some people have supposed. I say it gets a 6 in penetration, 1 in sharpness before and after, 5 in durability 5 in dependability. 5 in flight. Total score 23. I'm calling it!


I meant about this...


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## sethro02

I think it will blow through


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## lung smasher

You havent recieved or tested the atom broadheads have you. I saw someone mentioned them on a post. Would be interesting to see it in action.


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## sethro02

i have not....i only had a couple people interested in them so I wasnt going to go buy a package of them yet...i'll keep looking though


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## lung smasher

I sent them a message and ask about Donating 1 of them for a test.


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## lung smasher

Kinda curious how well they do against bone. Can't see them working but who knows.


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## white.greg

lung smasher said:


> Kinda curious how well they do against bone. Can't see them working but who knows.


I can donate an Atom broadhead. Pretty sure I know how it would perform though. Flight is perfect, hits plywood, wire blades fold back, one of both break off, entrance and exit hole in plywood looks like a fieldpoint hole. If you hit the plywood on a light angle, the head will be bent too.


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## sethro02

I kinda figured that would haopen to but ill be happy to take a donation head to test


----------



## 5 Rivers

white.greg said:


> I can donate an Atom broadhead. Pretty sure I know how it would perform though. Flight is perfect, hits plywood, wire blades fold back, one of both break off, entrance and exit hole in plywood looks like a fieldpoint hole. If you hit the plywood on a light angle, the head will be bent too.


I tried the Atom once on a caribou and was very disappointed. Very poor penetration, almost none, and the razor wires all pop loose out of the tracks. It was very loud in flight also. It was claimed to have a "snowplow effect" but it got hung in the first drift of meat. I was luck enough to get a second shot on the same caribou and got a complete pass thru with the Shuttle-T at a greater distance.
Just my in the field observation.............


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## TimmyZ7

It would be like shooting a sharpened whisk at a cutting board.


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## gofastd

In the past I used muzzy 4 blade 100s. I liked them because they are simple to put together, seemed durable, made a fairly big cut, and can be found in nearly any store across the United States. I went to a T3 with advances in expanding heads but was very disappointed. I'd like to see the old faithful muzzy 4 blade tested.


----------



## seiowabow

Viper69 said:


> I guess its a good thing I have a bunch of Grizztrick 1's


I year ya. I bought all the inventory of grizz 1s from the local Scheels

Sent from my DROID4 using Tapatalk 2


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## sethro02

The old faithful muzzy 3 was tested..did quite well!


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## talon1961

I don't know how the Atom will hold up through the plywood, but I have sent the same one through a hog and two deer. The last one passed through and hit a rock and bent the tip. I used my dremmel and ground down the tip and it's back in the quiver for another hog or coyote. Same wires. I was given the Atom by my brother to try out. I bet him it wouldn't do a very good job because it was dull and I didn't think it would be durable or accurate. I lost the bet. I still use my slick trick mags though.


----------



## white.greg

talon1961 said:


> I don't know how the Atom will hold up through the plywood, but I have sent the same one through a hog and two deer. The last one passed through and hit a rock and bent the tip. I used my dremmel and ground down the tip and it's back in the quiver for another hog or coyote. Same wires. I was given the Atom by my brother to try out. I bet him it wouldn't do a very good job because it was dull and I didn't think it would be durable or accurate. I lost the bet. I still use my slick trick mags though.


I killed a 10 point buck with one, tiny entry hole, hit the front leg bone on the way out, only found the deer because it ended up dropping right near another hunter who heard it. No blood trail, destroyed the head, broke one wire, bent the other and bent the entire head, mashed the tip. And I was so psyched about these heads. The one thing about the shartness I still think is valid, this whole "razor' sharp thing is way over blown IMO, when the cutting surface is traveling at 200 mph, it cuts flesh like butter. I would like to see the same head tested sharp and dull and it's my bet that the results would be identical.


----------



## Bones816

Seth, when did you become "Plywood Hunter"? I love that! I just noticed it today so if it's been a while please don't front me out too bad for not noticing!


----------



## phantom1

Seth, yes the TekanII is no longer made, but is still being used by a bunch of us(because it penetrates so well, even with low poundage on a real live deer shoulder) and is readily available on this sight(like almost every broadhead in the world, thank goodness!). Anyway, I have several and would be glad to send one or more, if you have time to test it. Either way, thanks for all you have done!


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## sethro02

Yea ill test one...i became plywood hunter after all the hate mail ive received on how my test is bs and plywood sux


----------



## UTGrad

sethro02 said:


> Yea ill test one...i became plywood hunter after all the hate mail ive received on how my test is bs and plywood sux


You're not going to get 100% approval ratings....sorry. I think your test is about like all the other test I can find on You Tube but you are definitely sacrificing a lot to carry out the test. I appreciate your passion.


----------



## OLDHOOTOWL

Well, I have stopped reading tests, seems like everybody nowdays with a bow has one. Happened to open this one,
so I will volunteer this. You didn't factor in what is cut at all, I don't believe, scanned quickly.

If you have 2 heads, and they both get a passthrough, and 1 head cut more than the other, then the head that did
the most damage has the advantage.

What you must do is factor how much blade cut a head has. Simple matter, just take the diameter and divide by 2,
then multiply by the number of blades. That is your Total Blade Cut. More cut, better hole and blood, ask a Doctor.

Blade surface makes no difference. Why? Because you can have a 3" long 2 blade head and measure blade surface
at 6". Compare that with your Grizztrick blade surface. Now ask yourself, which head actually cuts more, makes a 
better hole and blood? The GT by far. 

So obviously Total Blade Cut is what counts. Or, if you don't want to do the math, just push a head through cardboard
and then measure the cuts. You can literally see the cut that goes through an animal. Thats the relevant measurement no doubt.

As to plywood, I didn't read the test stuff other than the spreadsheet, like I said I've given up on internet testing. But plywood isn't
a bad medium to measure compared to anything else. Gives a reasonable imitation of bone. You can see that the larger diameter heads
penetrate less and are damaged more, and thats what happens on an animal. On the other hand, one of the worst, but is a current fad,
is ballistic gel. The stuff is made for showing bullet expansion, and it does that well. But it doesn't have the structure of flesh or lubrication,
and isn't worth a darn testing cutting because it doesn't cut like flesh. You know its not when you see large mechs outpenetrating small 
3 blade heads in ads. Thats the opposite of what happens on animals. Consider the old saying a bad test is worse than no test at all. 

As far as real animal parts, you can never shoot the same spot twice, so you never get a fair comparison. The BEST broadhead test is real animals,
and a bunch of them. Thats where you can see indisputable evidence of hole and penetration and durability. Accuracy is the only real test in your 
backyard that really means anything.

Hope that helps.


----------



## whack n stack

Love the Slick Tricks!! ^^^


----------



## seiowabow

@Oldhootowl. Bring back the Grizz1! 

Sent from my DROID4 using Tapatalk 2


----------



## sethro02

Ok I uderstand you scanned very quickly and thats fine...ballistics gel is to stop the arrow..never said it was to be like organs..its about as close to organs I can use but not really...if I didnt use gel then everything would have passed through and that would be boring. Also how does ballistics gel not show how much the head cut? Gel closes together unlike flesh but the cut is still there..i also mentioned this test was as close as I could get in replicating a bad shot


----------



## sethro02

oh also this test was origianally for durability and penetration...then i just added cut surface and advertised cut diameter


----------



## OLDHOOTOWL

Wasn't picking on you, didn't read to see if you were using gel or not, was just a blanket statement on the use of it.
Just saw your mention of plywood and commented on that specifically to your testing. 

As to using gel so it wouldn't be boring, thats understandable, my take on all the tests is they are entertaining,
but they don't tell the story real animals do. I just pointed out how extremely important factoring the real amount
of cut is when you are considering broadhead performance. 

Durability is the only thing besides accuracy that can really be counted on to mean something in these types of tests,
steel drums are panned by people but a head that is damaged through that will likely be reported as damaged on animals.

Plywood is good as far as it goes with blades, but hard bone is more challenging. Few consider its an angled hit on hard bone that really
tests a ferrule. You hit hard bone at an angle with an aluminum ferrule and it bends or breaks and you've lost penetration
to vitals and blood loss, costing you an animal. Most test ferrules straight on and that doesn't stress them at all like
what a real animal does.

Anyway, looking at the number of posts you gave folks something to pass the offseason, as you say it gets boring and entertainment helps.


----------



## Rothhar1

sethro02 said:


> oh also this test was origianally for durability and penetration...then i just added cut surface and advertised cut diameter


BTW Seth cutting surface has little to do with the fact that you mesured the real wound chanel that is the messue of what counts here how much total cut width and the number of blades so if its a 3 blade with 3 - 3/4 inch slits cut that is exactly what you will get on say an animal the blade will not cut wider than it is period .Second if a a fold out out preformed a fixed so be it they both passed thru the same medium .Now folding bending or running a blade in at an angle through and animal will produce a longer or wider cut than it will just strait thru the animal broadside as far as cut is concerned..Old owl will not like the resuults he saw it did not put his stuff at the top so boo hooing the test as inacurate or inconclusive suits his argument ! So he will find any fault he can if he dont like the results ..And BTW I use ST mags and have no complaints .

This is way more than enterainment as well owl !


----------



## OLDHOOTOWL

No Shoulder, I wasn't looking to find any fault I could, just making a true observation. Anybody can push a head through cardboard or shoot it through
and measure the cuts just like I said. How can anybody say thats not the cut on an animal? Nothing tricky about it, pardon the pun.


----------



## nolimitarchery

OLDHOOTOWL said:


> Well, I have stopped reading tests, seems like everybody nowdays with a bow has one. Happened to open this one,
> so I will volunteer this. You didn't factor in what is cut at all, I don't believe, scanned quickly.
> 
> If you have 2 heads, and they both get a passthrough, and 1 head cut more than the other, then the head that did
> the most damage has the advantage.
> 
> What you must do is factor how much blade cut a head has. Simple matter, just take the diameter and divide by 2,
> then multiply by the number of blades. That is your Total Blade Cut. More cut, better hole and blood, ask a Doctor.
> 
> Blade surface makes no difference. Why? Because you can have a 3" long 2 blade head and measure blade surface
> at 6". Compare that with your Grizztrick blade surface. Now ask yourself, which head actually cuts more, makes a
> better hole and blood? The GT by far.
> 
> So obviously Total Blade Cut is what counts. Or, if you don't want to do the math, just push a head through cardboard
> and then measure the cuts. You can literally see the cut that goes through an animal. Thats the relevant measurement no doubt.
> 
> As to plywood, I didn't read the test stuff other than the spreadsheet, like I said I've given up on internet testing. But plywood isn't
> a bad medium to measure compared to anything else. Gives a reasonable imitation of bone. You can see that the larger diameter heads
> penetrate less and are damaged more, and thats what happens on an animal. On the other hand, one of the worst, but is a current fad,
> is ballistic gel. The stuff is made for showing bullet expansion, and it does that well. But it doesn't have the structure of flesh or lubrication,
> and isn't worth a darn testing cutting because it doesn't cut like flesh. You know its not when you see large mechs outpenetrating small
> 3 blade heads in ads. Thats the opposite of what happens on animals. Consider the old saying a bad test is worse than no test at all.
> 
> As far as real animal parts, you can never shoot the same spot twice, so you never get a fair comparison. The BEST broadhead test is real animals,
> and a bunch of them. Thats where you can see indisputable evidence of hole and penetration and durability. Accuracy is the only real test in your
> backyard that really means anything.
> 
> Hope that helps.


Oh good,

I win hands down


----------



## nolimitarchery

I do want to say as I have told people I think ST's are a great broadhead and will never say or can say anything bad about them. They were also my broadhead of choice until I came out with mine.

Thanks 
Dale

Sorry I couldn't resist the other post


----------



## OLDHOOTOWL

Well, I confess Tricks are still my broadhead of choice.


----------



## sethro02

oldhootowl, i know you arent picking on me i was just giving you a condensed version of this whole thread...also you said durability and accuracy is the only thing to really show in this test...how dependability? I think that is a good one that i have shown...we learned alot on when some of these heads opened, when they didnt open, etc.


----------



## OLDHOOTOWL

Yes, dependability counts for sure, or as I call it, reliability. I have 5 performance areas I consider,
accuracy, strength, penetration, hemorrhage, and reliability. Reliability is pretty much a mechanical consideration.
If you showed that, good, like I said I didn't really read through it.

Give it up Bambi, my post was factual and respectful. You are welcome to your opinion but I'll post however I want,
and considering all the folks that encourage me to post more than I have time for there are a ton of opposite opinions to yours.

I think folks would appreciate it though if you would give these boring attack posts a rest. You aren't commenting on me
with these posts, you are commenting on you, and not in a favorable way. 

Relax and enjoy the conversation, it won't kill you.


----------



## 0nepin

sethro02 said:


> titanium extreme
> View attachment 1413194


I'm posting so friend can find it


----------



## 0nepin

sethro02 said:


> slick trick standard
> View attachment 1416307


And another for a friend. Um witch one will bleed out faster ? I have killed a few animals with the slicktrick and they work well but the type of head like RC above give way better blood trails .


----------



## 0nepin

The hole that Seth got through the gel is very close to what I have seen in the field , most legit broadhead test I have seen sofar.


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## 0nepin

What happened to bambikiller post?


----------



## 0nepin

sethro02 said:


> titanium extreme
> View attachment 1413194


Repost so oldhootowl can the see the future in broadhead performance.with all the new high performance bow we Need broadheads to match.Oldhootowl you should check out the rage digger it's what the future is going to look like. There is going to be a new bench mark for broadhead performace after this season, better get ready!!!


----------



## Michael Myers

OLDHOOTOWL said:


> Well, I confess Tricks are still my broadhead of choice.


Not mine,I used to Shoot them,Now Only Rage and Gravediggers,I Sold my Tricks to Pay for the Gravediggers,Great Work Dale,Very excited for this Fall.Grizz


----------



## OLDHOOTOWL

Different strokes for different folks, shoot what you like. Large diameter blades are never going to penetrate hard bone
well, so folks are always going to appreciate regular fixed heads to get the job done. Through the lungs and all heads
will put down an animal quickly thats recovered. Gut shot you need to let them lay and you will find them no matter
which head. Hard bone, you need penetration to the vitals and hopefully a passthrough, thats a reasonable diameter
fixed blade. 

2" two blade mechs have trouble with penetration, add cut to that and thats even less penetration. You will never have
a head that cuts the most that penetrates best, physics can't be broken. Companies making heads with a larger diameter than
2" are going the wrong way, thats just making penetration problems worse. Good luck getting those blade tips through hard bone.

But as far as the future, not to worry, if I decide folks want a certain type head I can certainly take care of that if I wish.


----------



## phantom1

I love Seth's test's and do think they show a correlation to what happens in the field on real animals, flesh and bone. There will always be naysayers. I'm impressed with a guy who is actually doing something that is both entertaining and educational. If some folks don't like the thread, go to another one. Better yet, start your own tests and document it and post it here. You got a long way to go to catch this guy! And he's not arrogant, in spite of doing all this for us. Go Seth!!!!!


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## salmon killer

I thought his tests were very worth while and give insight to what a head needs to do.I know some people on here are at odds with his tests because there favorite broadhead came up short.But there are mechanicals that surprised me in there performance and I have never been a fan.My eyes are open now! Thanks Seth for the time and energy you put in.


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## seiowabow

0nepin said:


> Repost so oldhootowl can the see the future in broadhead performance.with all the new high performance bow we Need broadheads to match.Oldhootowl you should check out the rage digger it's what the future is going to look like. There is going to be a new bench mark for broadhead performace after this season, better get ready!!!


Do you ever get tired of posting that picture or bashing slick tricks? 90# bow and 3" broadheads, trying to compensate for something?

Sent from my DROID4 using Tapatalk 2


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## corey006

Always HAS to be a fly in the ointment.....it IS *A.T* after-all.:wink:

Best broadhead testing I have seen since the *archer's edge* website was testing heads a few years back.


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## sethro02

Thanks guys..i wish slicks would have penetrated better so I wouldnt have got all the pm's that I hated slick trick..someone even accused me of putting 1" plywood in for st test?!


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## sethro02

My next test will be soon then we will probabaly wrap it up...solid broadhead and another sonoran mech..also may get a few today... Also ill be shotting a sabermaxx on a victory vap for an at'er and ill document that as well


----------



## 0nepin

seiowabow said:


> Do you ever get tired of posting that picture or bashing slick tricks? 90# bow and 3" broadheads, trying to compensate for something?
> 
> Sent from my DROID4 using Tapatalk 2


No I really don't get tired of that.never bashed slicktricks , there good heads for lower ke bows.and to oldhootowl,I have never had a penatration problem and never will ,I have blown 2" blades through shoulder bones A few times.when your on your hands and knees this trying find some blood you will relize what we are doing with the new heads .and if check the spread sheet both the little cutting slicktrick and the Ray Charles penetrated the same!!!!!!


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## OLDHOOTOWL

Well, guys shouldn't have pmed that if they did. I don't hate your tests, and don't figure you hate Tricks. But you shouldn't have posted that,
because now it does look as if you will be biased. Thats the problem with tests in the past, you could see bias toward a certain head the tester
favored in his estimation.

Consider though, its not exactly fair and balanced to comment on broadheads, and be offended on comments on your tests. Somebody made all
the broadheads you commented on, thats their product. You made a broadhead test, thats your product. Objecting to an analysis of your tests
is a bit like pot calling the kettle black. Whats good for the goose should be good for the gander.

Its just that, like anything else, folks should appreciate seeing things from all angles. What if somebody who is of a certain political party, instead
of being where they are, had only heard what the other party said. He would be of the other party, instead of hearing from both sides and making
up his own mind.

And notice that I did compliment you on your good points. The other was constructive criticism, meant for you to better your tests or perspective.
I regret you didn't take it as such. This is why I generally skip tests, people don't want to calmly discuss the matter. But you don't want people
to be led astray not hearing all the pertinent info.

Frankly I thought Tricks did fine as far as the test went. Like I said before about the gel though, its just a misleading substance for cutting and
arrow penetration. I clicked on a few heads that had surprising results, and if I'm not mistaken the one that penetrated the most wasn't even
sharp. Doesn't that tell you something about gel as a test material?

Or for Shouldernuke, consider the original Grizztrick. It won't outpenetrate a Standard or Viper on an animal. Read what I said previously on cut
and penetration. Can't break the rules of physics. Some may call me stupid for "attacking" my own head, but its just an honest observation,
like all the other posts.

Ok, thats all. Just no need for any blood pressures rising, or anybody going postal, relax, season will start soon and folks can work off all
the excess testosterone.


----------



## sethro02

Onepin I should test raging ulmer extreme.im sure it wont get through second media but but for our frankenhead test it will!


----------



## seiowabow

0nepin said:


> No I really don't get tired of that.never bashed slicktricks , there good heads for lower ke bows.and to oldhootowl,I have never had a penatration problem and never will ,I have blown 2" blades through shoulder bones A few times.when your on your hands and knees this trying find some blood you will relize what we are doing with the new heads .and if check the spread sheet both the little cutting slicktrick and the Ray Charles penetrated the same!!!!!!


I have never been on my hands and knees looking for blood. Because I hit deer where they should be hit. I guess 3" heads are good for the gut shot shooters. I probably have more bone on my walls than you will see in a lifetime bud

Sent from my DROID4 using Tapatalk 2


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## sethro02

Biased? I could care less which head does the best..everybody knew at the beginning my sig said steelforce...i used steelforce sabertooths every now and then and their penetration wasnt what I wanted it to be...i wish every head would have done awesome that would give everyone a ton of options on heads to choose from...i also never made any bads about any heads...i rarely even made predictions


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## 0nepin

These heads are being built so we can get the most from our high performance bow. They are super accurate and quiet in flite.has anybody ever shot a slicktrick at 340fps? You know what I'm getting at.Every bow manufacture is making a real high performance bow , heck even Hoyt making a bad arce bow, think about it, a 80lb vector turbo and a 500gr Fmj with a rage digger on the end no deer has a chance.


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## sethro02

Meant to say never made any bad comments


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## sethro02

Onepin you could for sure take a texas heart shot with that setuo!...jk


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## seiowabow

Great test Seth. Been a fan since day one. I just don't understand where 90+ke bows and homemade braodheads fit into a "realworld" test. 

Sent from my DROID4 using Tapatalk 2


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## 0nepin

seiowabow said:


> I have never been on my hands and knees looking for blood. Because I hit deer where they should be hit. I guess 3" heads are good for the gut shot shooters. I probably have more bone on my walls than you will see in a lifetime bud
> 
> Sent from my DROID4 using Tapatalk 2


I'm not going to get into pissing match with you because you are the almighty perfect hunter.You might have more bone on the wall or you might not I don't care .as long as we both put meet in the freezer that's all that matters.I normally kill between 10-14 deer a season and I have never lost a deer with a bow and that's what matter to me.


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## 206Moose

What I can't understand is why the mech guys keep bragging on mechanical broadheads in reference to this test. There is only 1 true mechancial in the top 20 and it's number 20. Seth's test clearly shows fixed heads are better in his test. We can argue mech vs fixed all day but if you use seths spreadsheet the fixed heads dominated his test. His test is very helpful if you're looking for a tough dependable head that has good penetration abilities. If you're just looking for the biggest cut you don't have to do a test for that just make some measurements. You have to decide whats the most important attribute of a broadhead and buy accordingly. For me seths test included the attributes I look for in a good broadhead. I just wish he would shoot the razortrick LOL


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## sethro02

i simply through in some frankenheads to just see what they will do...alot of people use/make them...they can all be made by broadheads you can buy over the counter today...i was just trying to please everyone and testing heads that were most talked about.....i will test a razortrick! i didnt want to order any but i guess i will since no pro shop around here has any


----------



## sethro02

and yes out of my setup i did for the tests the fixed heads dominated...this is a base on how these heads will perform...for example a rage 2 blade with my setup didnt blow through second media...if i cranked my bow up to 65lbs it would have blown through...so i want to make sure everyone knows i was only shooting 52lbs out of my axe 6, which is still fast but i just wanted a level playing field with average speeds.


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## 206Moose

sethro02 said:


> i simply through in some frankenheads to just see what they will do...alot of people use/make them...they can all be made by broadheads you can buy over the counter today...i was just trying to please everyone and testing heads that were most talked about.....i will test a razortrick! i didnt want to order any but i guess i will since no pro shop around here has any


I offered to send a razortrick if you need one pm an address I would be glad to donate.


----------



## 206Moose

sethro02 said:


> and yes out of my setup i did for the tests the fixed heads dominated...this is a base on how these heads will perform...for example a rage 2 blade with my setup didnt blow through second media...if i cranked my bow up to 65lbs it would have blown through...so i want to make sure everyone knows i was only shooting 52lbs out of my axe 6, which is still fast but i just wanted a level playing field with average speeds.


exactly you are representing what I think is a good representation of what people actually shoot in regards to speed K.E. etc.


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## sethro02

thanks man...sent you a pm...sorry i lost that message saying you would donate one.


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## seiowabow

0nepin said:


> I'm not going to get into pissing match with you because you are the almighty perfect hunter.You might have more bone on the wall or you might not I don't care .as long as we both put meet in the freezer that's all that matters.I normally kill between 10-14 deer a season and I have never lost a deer with a bow and that's what matter to me.


I'm not a perfect hunter. But I don't need a 90# speed bow and huge heads to kill deer. And I don't constatly bash small heads and quote my bows specs in every other post. Just tells me you don't have much confidence in your abilities. You truly are the guy who shows up to deer camp with a .338 Laupua.

Sent from my DROID4 using Tapatalk 2


----------



## 0nepin

seiowabow said:


> I'm not a perfect hunter. But I don't need a 90# speed bow and huge heads to kill deer. And I don't constatly bash small heads and quote my bows specs in every other post. Just tells me you don't have much confidence in your abilities. You truly are the guy who shows up to deer camp with a .338 Laupua.
> 
> Sent from my DROID4 using Tapatalk 2


i would not say I have lack of confidence maybe a little over confidence.and your right you dont need high draw weight and big mech heads but that combo sure is efective.why hunt with the bare minimum?I do hunt deer with a 300win mag and i do shoot it well.


----------



## Michael Myers

OLDHOOTOWL said:


> Different strokes for different folks, shoot what you like. Large diameter blades are never going to penetrate hard bone
> well, so folks are always going to appreciate regular fixed heads to get the job done. Through the lungs and all heads
> will put down an animal quickly thats recovered. Gut shot you need to let them lay and you will find them no matter
> which head. Hard bone, you need penetration to the vitals and hopefully a passthrough, thats a reasonable diameter
> fixed blade.
> 
> 2" two blade mechs have trouble with penetration, add cut to that and thats even less penetration. You will never have
> a head that cuts the most that penetrates best, physics can't be broken. Companies making heads with a larger diameter than
> 2" are going the wrong way, thats just making penetration problems worse. Good luck getting those blade tips through hard bone.
> 
> But as far as the future, not to worry, if I decide folks want a certain type head I can certainly take care of that if I wish.


I Have a Close Huntin Buddy who stuck a Buck in the Shoulder last fall with a Slick trick,It didnt pentrate and the Arrow broke off 4" In,He didnt make a Great shot and he never found the Deer,I Dont believe any Broadhead is Ideal to put into a Shoulder,Your right it is all about shot placement,So i prefer Mechs but am not Loyal to any broadhead,And understand they all will kill,You just need to put them in the Vitals,I Watched my Old man drive a Slick trick mag into an 8 Pt Buck last fall,It went 45 Yards and Died,Looked like a Bloodbath.But i get Complete Passthrus with my Setup and Draw weight,So i feel Very Comfortable shooting a Big Mechanical or a Small Fixed,I aint on here to bash any head and i am not gonna Bow down and Kiss anybody's rear for what they like or Endorse.All personal; preference and we all make up our Own mind,Cheers and Good Huntin.Grizz


----------



## 0nepin

seiowabow said:


> Great test Seth. Been a fan since day one. I just don't understand where 90+ke bows and homemade braodheads fit into a "realworld" test.
> 
> Sent from my DROID4 using Tapatalk 2


Because it's the REAL DEAL broadhead test and they are the REAL DEAL.jk there are alot of us that shoot custom bows with custom strings with custom arrows so why not custom broadheads?you and oldcootowl are upset and I don't see why the slicktrick did fine because they are top notch .don't hate because some of us want bigger cuts quieter flite and more accuracy at higher speeds. I do think the slicktrick is one of the best head for majority of hunter but not for me.why shoot the same head that you get passthroughs with every time with a bow that 50lb ke and a bow that 100lb ke plus?


----------



## 0nepin

sethro02 said:


> titanium extreme
> View attachment 1413194


Pic say a thousand words. Remember this head got the same penatration as the slicktrick standard.This for you seiowabow.I know how you love these pic.


----------



## 0nepin

sethro02 said:


> slick trick standard
> View attachment 1416307


Here you go seiowabow and oldcootowl. If this is the kind of carnage your after that fine but I want more.


----------



## nolimitarchery

NTYMADATER said:


> What I can't understand is why the mech guys keep bragging on mechanical broadheads in reference to this test. There is only 1 true mechancial in the top 20 and it's number 20. Seth's test clearly shows fixed heads are better in his test. We can argue mech vs fixed all day but if you use seths spreadsheet the fixed heads dominated his test. His test is very helpful if you're looking for a tough dependable head that has good penetration abilities. If you're just looking for the biggest cut you don't have to do a test for that just make some measurements. You have to decide whats the most important attribute of a broadhead and buy accordingly. For me seths test included the attributes I look for in a good broadhead. I just wish he would shoot the razortrick LOL


I have seen you post in reference to the Grave Digger not being a true mechanical before, and I was wondering what that meant. The only thing that kept the Grave Digger from being #2 was it got a 9 on penetration. Like I said in the video on how the Grave Digger works and why it penetrates so well it has nothing to do with the front blade. We have tested it with a small front blade and it penetrated further. The Grave Digger is a true mechanical that has a large front blade which people call a hybrid as do we. But in the context of this test it still has to perform and function as a mechanical or it will not score as high.

Thanks 
Dale


----------



## MOC

0nepin said:


> .has anybody ever shot a slicktrick at 340fps?


Yes, I sure have. If I remember correctly, I took 8 big game animals that season.


----------



## 0nepin

OLDHOOTOWL said:


> Well, I confess Tricks are still my broadhead of choice.


Penatration must not be that important to you or your favorit would be shuttle t or muzzy mx3 .you should stand down range and listen to slicktrick headed your way and then fire a shuttle t, I bet you will have a new favorit or you will head back to the drawing board.The most entertaining thing on this thread is how some slicktrick shooter think they are, better than everybody else.the fact is there not one head that will work best for everybody,shoot what works best for your setup and let everybody else to the same.


----------



## MOC

0nepin said:


> No I really don't get tired of that.never bashed slicktricks ,


EDIT: Come on, we know you don't like Tricks. Reading through your posts, sometimes it seems like you're bashing, other times you recommend them.


----------



## 0nepin

MOC said:


> Yes, I sure have. If I remember correctly, I took 8 big game animals that season.


Your bow a beast .I remember when you got it,even if they did hear it coming they had no chance in ducking that laser beam.Im not bashing slicktricks,I have killed with them and they just don't leave the massive bloodtrails that some of the other do.


----------



## MOC

0nepin said:


> Your bow a beast .I remember when you got it,even if they did hear it coming they had no chance in ducking that laser beam.


True. I never really notice a noise with them, though.

EDIT: By the way, the beast is now outfitted with 500-grain finished FMJ's.


----------



## 0nepin

MOC said:


> EDIT: Come on, we know you don't like Tricks. Reading through your posts, sometimes it seems like you're bashing, other times you recommend them.


I do pick at some of the slicktrick shooter when they are feeling all high and mighty,it go's both ways.I really do think we are starting a new era in broadhead desing to complement the new era of high performance bows like your . Why would i shoot a slicktrick out of a bow with over 100lb ke?


----------



## 206Moose

nolimitarchery said:


> I have seen you post in reference to the Grave Digger not being a true mechanical before, and I was wondering what that meant. The only thing that kept the Grave Digger from being #2 was it got a 9 on penetration. Like I said in the video on how the Grave Digger works and why it penetrates so well it has nothing to do with the front blade. We have tested it with a small front blade and it penetrated further. The Grave Digger is a true mechanical that has a large front blade which people call a hybrid as do we. But in the context of this test it still has to perform and function as a mechanical or it will not score as high.
> 
> Thanks
> Dale


I would call it a hybrid since it has the fixed blade. Congrats on making a good broadhead very impressive. I know the test list it as mechanical and it does have mechanical blades but that fixed blade is to big to ignore thus the reason I consider it a hybrid. Are your blades meant to open on impact or after entry? With the complete pass through of the ulmer edge opening after seems to actually be a good thing. Exit hole is way more important than entrance when shooting from a treestand. The whole big entrance hole is nothing more than marketing from rage which has worked pretty good for them. Hate to beat a dead horse but I'm convinced that an exit hole is the number one priority of a broadhead.


----------



## MOC

0nepin said:


> I do pick at some of the slicktrick shooter when they are feeling all high and mighty,it go's both ways.I really do think we are starting a new era in broadhead desing to complement the new era of high performance bows like your . Why would i shoot a slicktrick out of a bow with over 100lb ke?


I hear you on that, mine makes those numbers also, but I still choose Tricks. Just preference, and years of seeing good results in the field. I guess I have a lot of confidence in them, and I've yet to see any reason to change. I experimented with expandables, big ones, killed some deer with them and walked away unimpressed. Different stokes for different folks.


----------



## nolimitarchery

NTYMADATER said:


> I would call it a hybrid since it has the fixed blade. Congrats on making a good broadhead very impressive. I know the test list it as mechanical and it does have mechanical blades but that fixed blade is to big to ignore thus the reason I consider it a hybrid. Are your blades meant to open on impact or after entry? With the complete pass through of the ulmer edge opening after seems to actually be a good thing. Exit hole is way more important than entrance when shooting from a treestand. The whole big entrance hole is nothing more than marketing from rage which has worked pretty good for them. Hate to beat a dead horse but I'm convinced that an exit hole is the number one priority of a broadhead.


Thank you for the comments.

The blades are designed to open inside the skin line, to do all the damage inside the body. It will have a great exit hole if you care to give them a try. I did a video on how they work because there was an overwhelming amount of PM's asking why and how they did so well. You can find the video on the website if you care to take a look.

I do think that in this test the Grave Digger had to perform as a mechanical because if the blades bent or broke of failed in any way the Grave Digger would have been a mechanical but since they didn't it is considered a hybrid. 

Thanks
Dale


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## Fortyneck

0nepin said:


> Here you go seiowabow and oldcootowl. If this is the kind of carnage your after that fine but I want more.


What you still don't seem to understand is this is still cutting 2" of tissue except the blades don't bend and break, you probably think a skinny cup with 4oz. of water has 

more water in it than a wide one with 4oz.



0nepin said:


> Penatration must not be that important to you or your favorit would be shuttle t or muzzy mx3 .you should stand down range and listen to slicktrick headed your way and then fire a shuttle t, I bet you will have a new favorit or you will head back to the drawing board.*The most entertaining thing on this thread is how some slicktrick shooter think they are, better than everybody else.*the fact is there not one head that will work best for everybody,shoot what works best for your setup and let everybody else to the same.


Not as entertaining as hearing you go on about how awesome you think your frankenfurter is.


----------



## 0nepin

MOC said:


> I hear you on that, mine makes those numbers also, but I still choose Tricks. Just preference, and years of seeing good results in the field. I guess I have a lot of confidence in them, and I've yet to see any reason to change. I experimented with expandables, big ones, killed some deer with them and walked away unimpressed. Different stokes for different folks.


You should check out the rage digger in the broadhead subforum under franken heads.it pretty much the best of both worlds.


----------



## seiowabow

0nepin said:


> Pic say a thousand words. Remember this head got the same penatration as the slicktrick standard.This for you seiowabow.I know how you love these pic.


I dont even shoot a standard trick, i shoot Grizz1s, which i believe is #3 on the results. Take the cutting diameter of the grizz's 4 blades and it equals the two blades.

Sent from my DROID4 using Tapatalk 2


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## seiowabow

Fortyneck said:


> What you still don't seem to understand is this is still cutting 2" of tissue except the blades don't bend and break, you probably think a skinny cup with 4oz. of water has
> 
> more water in it than a wide one with 4oz.
> 
> 
> 
> Not as entertaining as hearing you go on about how awesome you think your frankenfurter is.


I know right?! Take the diameter of the four blades, the same as two wider blades. And slick trick guys bragging?! Who posts constantly about their bows specs the frankenhead, blah, blah, blah. 

Sent from my DROID4 using Tapatalk 2


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## 0nepin

Fortyneck said:


> What you still don't seem to understand is this is still cutting 2" of tissue, you probably think a skinny cup with 4oz. of water has more water in it than a wide one with 4oz.
> 
> 
> 
> Not as entertaining as hearing you go on about how awesome you think your frankenfurter is.


You again? Check out the pic's.slicktrick are good head the but they will not bleed out a deer as fast as a rage digger .the bigger cut from center giver a better chance of cutting the vitals if your shot off a little.shoulder shots no head works well with low ke setups.the small hole that the slicktrick leave sometimes make tracking more difficult than it need be.If you want to shoot big mech heads I say if you got the Bow for it go for it.


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## goathollow

NTYMADATER said:


> What I can't understand is why the mech guys keep bragging on mechanical broadheads in reference to this test. There is only 1 true mechancial in the top 20 and it's number 20. Seth's test clearly shows fixed heads are better in his test. We can argue mech vs fixed all day but if you use seths spreadsheet the fixed heads dominated his test. His test is very helpful if you're looking for a tough dependable head that has good penetration abilities. If you're just looking for the biggest cut you don't have to do a test for that just make some measurements. You have to decide whats the most important attribute of a broadhead and buy accordingly. For me seths test included the attributes I look for in a good broadhead. I just wish he would shoot the razortrick LOL


Very well said. Seth's test does a lot for the *AVERAGE* guy shooting 55-65 lb draw weight. I personally will conceed that the results would change if you crank up the bow poundage and/or increased arrow weight or otherwise change the parameters of the test. That is simple physics. What Seth's test does do however is simply confirm what we already knew..and that is a good thing given all the new options we have to choose from. Smaller fixed bladed broadheads penetrate better and are more durable and dependable (with a couple of arguable exceptions). If the reader is an AVERAGE guy and his priority is penetration (two holes instead of one) and he wants the broadhead to not break or malfunction then clearly Seth's test shows that the fixed heads are a better choice. However, if you are either not average (shoot 65-80 lbs or more) or your priority is about a gaping entry wound and you are willing to sacrifice some penetration or durablity to get it then Seth's test clearly tells you that you should be shooting a over the top expandable. (I don't hunt where very long 50+ yd shots are the norm so those that do may be the exception) It is simply a matter of choice and the choice is no different today than it was last year or 5 years ago. There is still no perfect broadhead that penetrates deep and makes a huge hole, never fails and works for all poundages of bows. And, I truly believe until the laws of physics change, this issue will prevail. And, whether you choose fixed or expandable, all is good...just screw one you like on the end of an arrow and go hunting for pete's sake!!

I for one hope that no one ever finds the "perfect" broadhead. Its the experimentation of finding the right combination that keeps me sane between Jan 6th and Oct 1st !!


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## nick3950

0nepin said:


> I do pick at some of the slicktrick shooter when they are feeling all high and mighty,it go's both ways.I really do think we are starting a new era in broadhead desing to complement the new era of high performance bows like your . Why would i shoot a slicktrick out of a bow with over 100lb ke?


Why not? Is your bow too good for certain broad heads? I don't think so.

I can shoot Slick Tricks through a deer, hog, whatever, and use it again. You on the other hand have to replace your blades every time you pass through an animal because they bend or break off. 

You just like hearing yourself talk.

/rant.


----------



## Michael Myers

nick3950 said:


> Why not? Is your bow too good for certain broad heads? I don't think so.
> 
> I can shoot Slick Tricks through a deer, hog, whatever, and use it again. You on the other hand have to replace your blades every time you pass through an animal because they bend or break off.
> 
> You just like hearing yourself talk.
> 
> /rant.


I did not have to replace a Single blade last fall and killed 3 Animals,2 bucks and a 323 Lbs Black bear with my 1 Mech head,It was in perfect shape after 3 Animals.Grizz


----------



## dmtindell

I JUST WANTED TO POST ON THIS THREAD BECAUSE EVERYONE ELSE ON AT HAS!

GOOD JOB SETH!:thumbs_up


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## Fortyneck

0nepin said:


> You again? Check out the pic's.slicktrick are good head the* but they will not bleed out a deer as fast as a rage digger .the bigger cut from center giver a better chance of cutting the vitals if your shot off a little.shoulder shots no head works well with low ke setups.the small hole that the slicktrick leave sometimes make tracking more difficult than it need be.If you want to shoot big mech heads I say if you got the Bow for it go for it.*


Yes, we all know your *opinion*, that you spew like fact.

I got pics of tiny slick trick holes too.


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## goathollow

0nepin said:


> Penatration must not be that important to you or your favorit would be shuttle t or muzzy mx3 .you should stand down range and listen to slicktrick headed your way and then fire a shuttle t, I bet you will have a new favorit or you will head back to the drawing board.The most entertaining thing on this thread is how some slicktrick shooter think they are, better than everybody else.the fact is there not one head that will work best for everybody,shoot what works best for your setup and let everybody else to the same.


I respectfully disagree with the broadhead noise during flight issue. Sound travels about 3.5 - 4 times faster than the arrow & broadhead. The sound of the bow will have already reached the deer well before the sound the arrow. IMO the sound of the arrow flying through the air is a whole lot less important than the dbs of the sound of the bow at release. And by the time the arrow is "down range", be it half way or 10 ft from the deer, the deer has already had plenty of time to react to the sound of the bow. That is why a bowhunter shoudl wait until the animal is relaxed and not on alert. Another point to debate I suppose but the laws fo physics are what they are.


----------



## 0nepin

Fortyneck said:


> Yes, we all know your *opinion*, that you spew like fact.
> 
> I got pics of tiny slick trick holes too.


Not bad bro , there is nothing wrong with trick I'm just after bigger cuts and better bloodtrails and I like pushing the limits.


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## 206Moose

Fortyneck said:


> What you still don't seem to understand is this is still cutting 2" of tissue except the blades don't bend and break, you probably think a skinny cup with 4oz. of water has
> 
> more water in it than a wide one with 4oz.
> 
> 
> 
> Not as entertaining as hearing you go on about how awesome you think your frankenfurter is.


Sorry but that made me actually LOL


----------



## 206Moose

goathollow said:


> I respectfully disagree with the broadhead noise during flight issue. Sound travels about 3.5 - 4 times faster than the arrow & broadhead. The sound of the bow will have already reached the deer well before the sound the arrow. IMO the sound of the arrow flying through the air is a whole lot less important than the dbs of the sound of the bow at release. And by the time the arrow is "down range", be it half way or 10 ft from the deer, the deer has already had plenty of time to react to the sound of the bow. That is why a bowhunter shoudl wait until the animal is relaxed and not on alert. Another point to debate I suppose but the laws fo physics are what they are.


I was thinking it but didn't want to open another can of worms. Good Post


----------



## goathollow

0nepin said:


> You again? Check out the pic's.slicktrick are good head the but they will not bleed out a deer as fast as a rage digger .the bigger cut from center giver a better chance of cutting the vitals if your shot off a little.shoulder shots no head works well with low ke setups.the small hole that the slicktrick leave sometimes make tracking more difficult than it need be.If you want to shoot big mech heads I say if you got the Bow for it go for it.


OK, I would conceed that with your set up a deer may bleed out faster with a ragedigger than a slick trick ( I shoot neither by the way). But I only conceed because you are shooting a bow that will punch a large expandable broadhead completely through a deer. But, I also think you are an exception...most guys don't shoot 80lb bows; they are more in the 55-65 range. For the average guy, I still believe that *two* holes from a "small" fixed blade is better than *one* hole from a 2 in expandable...especially if shooting from an elevated stand where the entry hole is up high.

Now we just have to figure out a test for that!!!


----------



## 0nepin

My bow is very quiet and I would want my arrow quiet aswell that might just be me .I don't like loud fletching or broad heads .


goathollow said:


> I respectfully disagree with the broadhead noise during flight issue. Sound travels about 3.5 - 4 times faster than the arrow & broadhead. The sound of the bow will have already reached the deer well before the sound the arrow. IMO the sound of the arrow flying through the air is a whole lot less important than the dbs of the sound of the bow at release. And by the time the arrow is "down range", be it half way or 10 ft from the deer, the deer has already had plenty of time to react to the sound of the bow. That is why a bowhunter shoudl wait until the animal is relaxed and not on alert. Another point to debate I suppose but the laws fo physics are what they are.


----------



## 0nepin

i agree 100% but there more us than you think.QUOTE=goathollow;1064796851]OK, I would conceed that with your set up a deer may bleed out faster with a ragedigger than a slick trick ( I shoot neither by the way). But I only conceed because you are shooting a bow that will punch a large expandable broadhead completely through a deer. But, I also think you are an exception...most guys don't shoot 80lb bows; they are more in the 55-65 range. For the average guy, I still believe that *two* holes from a "small" fixed blade is better than *one* hole from a 2 in expandable...especially if shooting from an elevated stand where the entry hole is up high.

Now we just have to figure out a test for that!!![/QUOTE]


----------



## goathollow

0nepin said:


> Not bad bro , there is nothing wrong with trick I'm just after bigger cuts and better bloodtrails and I like pushing the limits.


Ok...now we're at a place where we can all have sensible discussion!! And there is absolutely nothing wrong with pushing the limits (well at least with archery :wink


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## Fortyneck

goathollow said:


> 0nepin said:
> 
> 
> 
> Not bad bro , there is nothing wrong with trick I'm just after bigger cuts and better bloodtrails and I like pushing the limits.
> 
> 
> 
> Ok...now we're at a place where we can all have sensible discussion!! And there is absolutely nothing wrong with pushing the limits (well at least with archery :wink
Click to expand...

Agreed.


----------



## goathollow

0nepin said:


> My bow is very quiet and I would want my arrow quiet aswell that might just be me .I don't like loud fletching or broad heads .


I have no doubt that your bow is very quiet. And I see no problem with wanting quiet arrows. However, to those less knowledgeable, your comment seems to infer that the arrow noise is of paramount importance. I would only suggest that archery hunters should first be concerned with the noise from their bow, then worry whether a Shuttle T is quieter than a Slick Trick.


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## 206Moose

0nepin said:


> My bow is very quiet and I would want my arrow quiet aswell that might just be me .I don't like loud fletching or broad heads .


Per goathollows explanation earlier arrow noise is a moot point when it comes to spooking deer.


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## corey006

My worst hunting experience was with a SlickTrick.

Liver shot on Moose and no pass-through, and no blood trail.....took me 2 hours to find my Bull...he only made it 90 yards....but thick jungle bush.

That being said I was only shooting about 57 lbs K.E.

I probably would have been better off with a 3 blade fixed like Wasp or Muzzy.

That being said....

I will still have some Slick Trick Mag 125s in my quiver...for me they are the most accurate fixed blade I have ever shot.

*Everyone should be aware of their KE, at all ranges they intend to shoot, and shoot the right style broadhead that fits their set-up.*


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## Bigbuck5

nolimitarchery said:


> I have seen you post in reference to the Grave Digger not being a true mechanical before, and I was wondering what that meant. The only thing that kept the Grave Digger from being #2 was it got a 9 on penetration. Like I said in the video on how the Grave Digger works and why it penetrates so well it has nothing to do with the front blade. We have tested it with a small front blade and it penetrated further. The Grave Digger is a true mechanical that has a large front blade which people call a hybrid as do we. But in the context of this test it still has to perform and function as a mechanical or it will not score as high.
> 
> Thanks
> Dale


Will be ordering some of them bad boys soon! sick head man!


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## jaysib

I love the Frankenheads! These guys have the foresight, inovation and talent to make them. My daughter will use one to kill her first deer this year with an Xbow. I don't think I have the bow to use one on a regular basis(wish I did).

Darn You....."frankenfurter". I just spit coffee all over my keyboard!!!


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## seiowabow

0nepin said:


> Not bad bro , there is nothing wrong with trick I'm just after bigger cuts and better bloodtrails and I like pushing the limits.


Thats great, but keep in mind, by advocating huge heads and crazy fast bows; people will no doubt be wounding deer with these setups by taking any shot available. 

Sent from my DROID4 using Tapatalk 2


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## Michael Myers

seiowabow said:


> Thats great, but keep in mind, by advocating huge heads and crazy fast bows; people will no doubt be wounding deer with these setups by taking any shot available.
> 
> Sent from my DROID4 using Tapatalk 2


And how would that be Onepin's fault?Seriously...I Dont see how it's his problem that some other hunter does not know there equipment and there limits?


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## 0nepin

seiowabow said:


> Thats great, but keep in mind, by advocating huge heads and crazy fast bows; people will no doubt be wounding deer with these setups by taking any shot available.
> 
> Sent from my DROID4 using Tapatalk 2


They already do that.if they put in the time and effort they will do fine.99% of the time failure is the Indian .


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## TCBClarky

I don't hae the ability to get you one but if anyone else can and is willing I think it would interesting to test a single bevel broadhead and compare the results.


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## sethro02

i try not to get into these debates but i will share this for what its worth on flight noise.... This is an important feature for me considering ive killed 6 whitetail between 55 and 65 yards away....5 out of 6 jumped the arrow....i shot...they continued to eat corn while arrow was flying and within the last second dropped like it's as* was on fire...i killed all 6 but what was going to be a heart shot or double lung turned into high double lung or spine shot...the only one that did not jump the arrow was to worried about my decoy....all im saying is you cant hear my bow at 50 yards so i dont want you to hear my arrow....out of those 6 deer killed 2 were mechanicals. i practice long shots all the time....ive shared the story once but just to refresh you all ive shot long range on the way back to my truck as deer filtered out of the woods while i was going to lunch and so i practice for those types of situations, also i decoy hunt like crazy, the decoy is always about 30 yards away from me...most of the time i have a good shot from 40 to 50 yards so thats why i practice it...flight noise isnt for some people but once again like ive stated...i prepare for the absolute worst.


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## sethro02

im curious about single bevel as well...i'd like to put dr.ashby's prized heads through this test


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## sethro02

i didnt know this thread would be popular right now with no testing going on!


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## KMD

here's some points that have really stuck out to me in this thread that I feel bear repeating.

1. ballistic gel acts completely different than flesh when cut, therefore a poor indicator of broadhead perfomance on game

2. ballistic gel is only used to "stop the arrow"

3. plywood impact is not comparable to bone impact, due to shape, density, voids in material, impact angle....etc.

4. overall cutting diameter is the ACTUAL amount of tissue cut. Blade surface measurement doesn't quantify into size of actual cut.

5. a unit with moveable/articulating parts is inherently weaker, by design, than one with all parts affixed into a solid unit

6. in flight broadhead/arrow noise is fundamentally irrelevant to spooking game. Bow noise alerts the game animal before any sound from the arrow itself reaches the animal

7. "pushing the limits" is cool & innovative, but not always applicable, necessary, or even desirable to those who have found an effective solution to accomplishing a task 

thanks for a great thread!


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## 0nepin

Kmd it's safe to say if it cuts the gel better it cut the flesh better.there were fixed heads that came completely apart aswell.and I think it's bogus that a noisy broad head does not matter.I don't care what people think about me pushing the limits, that how you find new limits.everybody can take somthing of value from this test.you can interpit how you want to , it is what it is.


----------



## nolimitarchery

I'm going to reply to the statement about noise, wether it be from a bow or a broadhead or what ever, this is the deal. I don't care and I am not addressing any product here I just want to clarify I am not just a manufacturer I do sound for TV for a living.

Sound travels faster than any arrow this is true and yes the sound from a bow will get to the animal before any arrow. That being said....if you put a whistle on the front of an arrow the sound it make 1 foot out of the bow will also get there before the arrow. So the sound of a bow going off is a startling sound but the sound of something coming is a continuous sound. 

So if your bow puts a deer on alert then any other sound that is created be it broadhead, fletching or whatever is adding to the mix.

As far as I can tell every arrow makes noise.

Thanks
Dale


----------



## Smoknnca

0nepin said:


> Kmd it's safe to say if it cuts the gel better it cut the flesh better.there were fixed heads that came completely apart aswell.and I think it's bogus that a noisy broad head does not matter.I don't care what people think about me pushing the limits, that how you find new limits.everybody can take somthing of value from this test.you can interpit how you want to , it is what it is.


Okay next can of worms. How much does sound decay at 30, 40, or 50 yards. If your bow is relatively quiet maybe 40-55 db then bow sound at 30-50 yards will not matter as much as a whistling missile.


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## justanotherbuck

someone needs to go thru this thread and delete all the b.s.


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## GarrickTX

0nepin said:


> My bow is very quiet and I would want my arrow quiet aswell that might just be me .I don't like loud fletching or broad heads .


:thumbs_up


----------



## GarrickTX

sethro02 said:


> i try not to get into these debates but i will share this for what its worth on flight noise.... This is an important feature for me considering ive killed 6 whitetail between 55 and 65 yards away....5 out of 6 jumped the arrow....i shot...they continued to eat corn while arrow was flying and within the last second dropped like it's as* was on fire...i killed all 6 but what was going to be a heart shot or double lung turned into high double lung or spine shot...the only one that did not jump the arrow was to worried about my decoy....all im saying is you cant hear my bow at 50 yards so i dont want you to hear my arrow....out of those 6 deer killed 2 were mechanicals. i practice long shots all the time....ive shared the story once but just to refresh you all ive shot long range on the way back to my truck as deer filtered out of the woods while i was going to lunch and so i practice for those types of situations, also i decoy hunt like crazy, the decoy is always about 30 yards away from me...most of the time i have a good shot from 40 to 50 yards so thats why i practice it...flight noise isnt for some people but once again like ive stated...i prepare for the absolute worst.


Thank you for saying that... 100% agree


----------



## KMD

seth,
Likely, the deer WAS reacting to the sound of your bow, albeit a delayed reaction due to the longer distance. 
Consider this analogy 

Ever been to a baseball game up in the mezzanine & hear the 'crack' of the bat a half second (or so) after you saw the batter hit the ball?
That's because ANY SOUND TAKES TIME to cover the distance between its origin and you. The longer the distance, the longer the delay...

So, given the distance of the bowshots you stated (55-65 yds), the delay you noticed in the animal's reaction was simply due to the fact that the sound of your bow hadn't reached the animal yet. 

sound travels ~1125 fps, your arrow was travelling 250-300fps
there is just no friggin' way that the sound of the arrow BEATS the sound of the bow, so you might want to re-consider what those deer heard first & reacted to???

Onepin, ballistic gel has been proven to react completely opposite to how tissue reacts when cut. Ballistic gel closes back down under it's own pressure against a cut, whereas tissue splits & spreads AWAY from the source of a cut.

THIS IS A FACT.

Ballistic gel was developed as a standardized medium to test terminal performance of bullets. Although it does have a similar density to tissue (good for bullet testing), it simply does not share the physical characteristics that tissue does when exposed to a cutting surface. IE, they don't cut the same! So, if you want to correlate some form of comparison, then go right ahead. But I usually prefer to compare apples to apples.

What seth did with the ballistic gel DID offer a consistent medium for broadheads to penetrate. But the fact that ballistic gel is not a reliable indicator of how tissue reacts when cut is just how it is. Sorry to break it to ya...


BTW, clarifying 'little things' like these isn't about making anyone feel badly for sharing an opinion. It's about spreading factual & true information. 

The speed of sound is what it is, proven by science. So, AGAIN, there is just no friggin' way 300 fps is faster than 1125 fps. 
Nor, can ballistic gel be compared to flesh when being cut. They simply do NOT react the same.
I don't know how more simply that can be explained?


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## seiowabow

From what i have experienced, the sound of a broadhead is much louder from behind the arrow. 

Sent from my DROID4 using Tapatalk 2


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## seiowabow

0nepin said:


> They already do that.if they put in the time and effort they will do fine.99% of the time failure is the Indian .


You really believe that? I think the 1st generation 2 blade rage was probably responsible for more wounded deer than any other head.

Sent from my DROID4 using Tapatalk 2


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## Viper69

seiowabow said:


> You really believe that? I think the 1st generation 2 blade rage was probably responsible for more wounded deer than any other head.
> 
> Sent from my DROID4 using Tapatalk 2


I might agree with this except for the part that it was due to the rage. It was due to people shooting the Rage that had no business doing so. I cant believe the guys that come into the shop to have there bows looked at and say they shoot Rage. I test the poundage and they may have 57# or something low like that. Then you look at the set up and its not even tuned at all. No wonder so many people bash rage. Tune your bow and if you dont have a high amount of KE dont use a big cut mechanical. Also if you can not get any fixed heads to fly well dont just use a mechanical as a bandaid.


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## seiowabow

Yes I agree with you Viper. I worked for an outfitter for a few years in Southern Iowa. We lost alot of deer, and most guys were shooting 60# solocams in the 250 to 270fps class. 

Sent from my DROID4 using Tapatalk 2


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## Grizz1219

justanotherbuck said:


> someone needs to go thru this thread and delete all the b.s.


Amen... if you don't like how Seth was consistent with the testing, or didn't like the results... don't follow the post... Good lord... He did a GREAT job and thought it out quite well I think...


----------



## lotalota

So what is the minimum KE for shooting a mechanical 30 yds and under? I shoot 65# and chrony at 255. Is this too slow to shoot an Ulmer Edge ?


----------



## eltaco

KMD said:


> seth,
> Likely, the deer WAS reacting to the sound of your bow, albeit a delayed reaction due to the longer distance.
> Consider this analogy
> 
> Ever been to a baseball game up in the mezzanine & hear the 'crack' of the bat a half second (or so) after you saw the batter hit the ball?
> That's because ANY SOUND TAKES TIME to cover the distance between its origin and you. The longer the distance, the longer the delay...
> 
> So, given the distance of the bowshots you stated (55-65 yds), the delay you noticed in the animal's reaction was simply due to the fact that the sound of your bow hadn't reached the animal yet.
> 
> sound travels ~1125 fps, your arrow was travelling 250-300fps
> there is just no friggin' way that the sound of the arrow BEATS the sound of the bow, so you might want to re-consider what those deer heard first & reacted to???
> 
> Onepin, ballistic gel has been proven to react completely opposite to how tissue reacts when cut. Ballistic gel closes back down under it's own pressure against a cut, whereas tissue splits & spreads AWAY from the source of a cut.
> 
> THIS IS A FACT.
> 
> Ballistic gel was developed as a standardized medium to test terminal performance of bullets. Although it does have a similar density to tissue (good for bullet testing), it simply does not share the physical characteristics that tissue does when exposed to a cutting surface. IE, they don't cut the same! So, if you want to correlate some form of comparison, then go right ahead. But I usually prefer to compare apples to apples.
> 
> What seth did with the ballistic gel DID offer a consistent medium for broadheads to penetrate. But the fact that ballistic gel is not a reliable indicator of how tissue reacts when cut is just how it is. Sorry to break it to ya...
> 
> 
> BTW, clarifying 'little things' like these isn't about making anyone feel badly for sharing an opinion. It's about spreading factual & true information.
> 
> The speed of sound is what it is, proven by science. So, AGAIN, there is just no friggin' way 300 fps is faster than 1125 fps.
> Nor, can ballistic gel be compared to flesh when being cut. They simply do NOT react the same.
> I don't know how more simply that can be explained?


I love when people push this FACT but you forgot one thing... the bow makes sound for a short instant and its position is fixed. The arrow makes continuous sound from the instant it is propelled forward until it stops.... but its position is traveling forward as it produces the sound. The sound from the arrow is also moving at the speed of sound, but actually increases in intensity as it closes in on the target. The sound of the bow decreases in intensity as it travels through air.

The FACT is, depending on what distance the arrow is shot from, a continuous whistle moving towards you can be more alarming than the instantaneous sound of the bow going off. The sound of the arrow is 100% relevant, and I greatly appreciate such info.

Stand behind a tree at 100yds and have your buddy shoot at a target off to the side of you. You'll quickly realize that the sound of the bow is insignificant in comparison to a loud broadhead closing distance on your location.


----------



## Michael Myers

Grizz1219 said:


> Amen... if you don't like how Seth was consistent with the testing, or didn't like the results... don't follow the post... Good lord... He did a GREAT job and thought it out quite well I think...


Not everybody is always happy,Seth did a Great Job,And i respect the time,effort and money he put into this,For all the Haters or Whiners ,If you dont like it or agree with it fine,But no need to Send Seth hate Pm's and crap..Unreal...Great Job Seth,Thank You.Grizz


----------



## 0nepin

seiowabow said:


> You really believe that? I think the 1st generation 2 blade rage was probably responsible for more wounded deer than any other head.
> 
> Sent from my DROID4 using Tapatalk 2


I killed alot of deer with the first gen rage and still have some.there nothing with them.


----------



## 0nepin

Yes It does react differently but the cut size is very close.and my son was shooting his 50 Lb bow with a 376 gr arrow with either a slicktrick or a grave digger and as I was Standing to the side down range I could hear the arrow with the slicktrick a good bit befor it got there when i could not hear the grave digger arrow either I'm not going to shoot a loud arrow.I seen the gigantic hole ray Charles left in the gel can't wait to see what it does to flesh .


KMD said:


> seth,
> Likely, the deer WAS reacting to the sound of your bow, albeit a delayed reaction due to the longer distance.
> Consider this analogy
> 
> Ever been to a baseball game up in the mezzanine & hear the 'crack' of the bat a half second (or so) after you saw the batter hit the ball?
> That's because ANY SOUND TAKES TIME to cover the distance between its origin and you. The longer the distance, the longer the delay...
> 
> So, given the distance of the bowshots you stated (55-65 yds), the delay you noticed in the animal's reaction was simply due to the fact that the sound of your bow hadn't reached the animal yet.
> 
> sound travels ~1125 fps, your arrow was travelling 250-300fps
> there is just no friggin' way that the sound of the arrow BEATS the sound of the bow, so you might want to re-consider what those deer heard first & reacted to???
> 
> Onepin, ballistic gel has been proven to react completely opposite to how tissue reacts when cut. Ballistic gel closes back down under it's own pressure against a cut, whereas tissue splits & spreads AWAY from the source of a cut.
> 
> THIS IS A FACT.
> 
> Ballistic gel was developed as a standardized medium to test terminal performance of bullets. Although it does have a similar density to tissue (good for bullet testing), it simply does not share the physical characteristics that tissue does when exposed to a cutting surface. IE, they don't cut the same! So, if you want to correlate some form of comparison, then go right ahead. But I usually prefer to compare apples to apples.
> 
> What seth did with the ballistic gel DID offer a consistent medium for broadheads to penetrate. But the fact that ballistic gel is not a reliable indicator of how tissue reacts when cut is just how it is. Sorry to break it to ya...
> 
> 
> BTW, clarifying 'little things' like these isn't about making anyone feel badly for sharing an opinion. It's about spreading factual & true information.
> 
> The speed of sound is what it is, proven by science. So, AGAIN, there is just no friggin' way 300 fps is faster than 1125 fps.
> Nor, can ballistic gel be compared to flesh when being cut. They simply do NOT react the same.
> I don't know how more simply that can be explained?


----------



## Rothhar1

KMD said:


> seth,
> Likely, the deer WAS reacting to the sound of your bow, albeit a delayed reaction due to the longer distance.
> Consider this analogy
> 
> Ever been to a baseball game up in the mezzanine & hear the 'crack' of the bat a half second (or so) after you saw the batter hit the ball?
> That's because ANY SOUND TAKES TIME to cover the distance between its origin and you. The longer the distance, the longer the delay...
> 
> So, given the distance of the bowshots you stated (55-65 yds), the delay you noticed in the animal's reaction was simply due to the fact that the sound of your bow hadn't reached the animal yet.
> 
> sound travels ~1125 fps, your arrow was travelling 250-300fps
> there is just no friggin' way that the sound of the arrow BEATS the sound of the bow, so you might want to re-consider what those deer heard first & reacted to???
> 
> Onepin, ballistic gel has been proven to react completely opposite to how tissue reacts when cut. Ballistic gel closes back down under it's own pressure against a cut, whereas tissue splits & spreads AWAY from the source of a cut.
> 
> THIS IS A FACT.
> 
> Ballistic gel was developed as a standardized medium to test terminal performance of bullets. Although it does have a similar density to tissue (good for bullet testing), it simply does not share the physical characteristics that tissue does when exposed to a cutting surface. IE, they don't cut the same! So, if you want to correlate some form of comparison, then go right ahead. But I usually prefer to compare apples to apples.
> 
> What seth did with the ballistic gel DID offer a consistent medium for broad-heads to penetrate. But the fact that ballistic gel is not a reliable indicator of how tissue reacts when cut is just how it is. Sorry to break it to ya...
> 
> 
> BTW, clarifying 'little things' like these isn't about making anyone feel badly for sharing an opinion. It's about spreading factual & true information.
> 
> The speed of sound is what it is, proven by science. So, AGAIN, there is just no friggin' way 300 fps is faster than 1125 fps.
> Nor, can ballistic gel be compared to flesh when being cut. They simply do NOT react the same.
> I don't know how more simply that can be explained?


And all these things are just your opinion since you 

A--Were not there at the shot! 

B- Simply do not know how flesh reacts every time its struck by an arrow .
due to the position and movement of the animal muscles and bone pinch or twisting of those things.

C - the only thing you have right here is the speed of sound traveling at sea level ..So please try again 

D - A little known fact also the gel will cut the same exact width as the blades ..A blade will not cut any wider than it is ! 

E- as far as a medium to test penetration the gel was as consistent as any other and if the gel was so arrow grabby then why did all the BHs penetrated differently 
?? I will answer that for you they produce different results in depth due to blade width ,point type ,and The sharpness of the blades .

No please go cry else where since obviously one of your favorite BHs must not of preformed the way you want it too.


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## Yorklobster

I just pulled the trigger on the steelforce phathead after looking at all the data. I think the biggest reason was not only the high score but the penetration. I've shot rage for the last couple years and have had good luck with them. I am looking forward to not having to check the blades to see if they are still "cocked"... Just one less thing I have to think about.


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## Fortyneck

justanotherbuck said:


> someone needs to go thru this thread and delete all the b.s.


If you mean posts like this ^^^^^.



Grizz1219 said:


> Amen... if you don't like how Seth was consistent with the testing, or didn't like the results... don't follow the post... Good lord... He did a GREAT job and thought it out quite well I think...





GrizzlyMan1980 said:


> Not everybody is always happy,Seth did a Great Job,And i respect the time,effort and money he put into this,For all the Haters or Whiners ,If you dont like it or agree with it fine,But no need to Send Seth hate Pm's and crap..Unreal...Great Job Seth,Thank You.Grizz


Everybody agrees Seth put in a lot of work, time and money, and salute him for the effort, along with everybody else who contributed.From donating heads to funding the 

test, to compiling and collating data they all deserve a big round of applause. but this is an open forum, open discussion, and all relevant opinions, suggestions, questions, 

and criticisms should be welcome. Just because some people offer criticism or, disagree doesn't make their post B.S.


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## Michael Myers

Fortyneck said:


> If you mean posts like this ^^^^^.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Everybody agrees Seth put in a lot of work, time and money, and salute him for the effort, along with everybody else who contributed from donating heads to funding the
> 
> test, to compiling and collating data they all deserve a big round of applause. but this is an open forum, open discussion, and all relevant opinions, suggestions, questions,
> 
> and criticisms should be welcome. Just because some people offer criticism or, disagree doesn't make their post B.S.


Sending people Hate mail is Pathetic Bud,I Dont care if you wanna cry over your favourite broadhead but other Stuff is Personal,Imo.If you have problem with what i say...I Dont care,And i hope you feel the same way with me.Have a Great Day,Grizz


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## Fulldraw1972

I really appreciate the test Seth. Thank you for the time and all the money and effort. Thank you all that helped along the way as well.
Seth's test taught me alot about heads. I have shot spitfire's, that didn't give me the results I liked. I have shot 2" Rage they were good however I didn't care for replacing blades all the time. I have shot muzzy along
with G5 Montecs and hellraizor heads. I have thought about VPA heads and Seth's test was the final chapter in my decision. I will be shooting VPA heads for good penetration, sharpness, durability and quietness.
Good luck this fall guys. Oh and by the way there are alot of great heads on the market it wouldn't be good for us if someone had the market cornered.


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## seiowabow

0nepin said:


> I killed alot of deer with the first gen rage and still have some.there nothing with them.


No there isn't, if everything goes as planned. Too many variables there for me. I killed alot of deer with a 45# proline bow with zwickey broadheads as a kid too.

Sent from my DROID4 using Tapatalk 2


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## 0nepin

seiowabow said:


> No there isn't, if everything goes as planned. Too many variables there for me. I killed alot of deer with a 45# proline bow with zwickey broadheads as a kid too.
> 
> Sent from my DROID4 using Tapatalk 2


So are you really trying to tell me that alot of people lost deer with the first get rage With well placed shots?


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## lotalota

Regarding the sound issue, I made this little video a year ago on a whim. It compares a field point vs. a Slick Trick Magnum shot at 20 yards. Personally, unless you're shooting huge distances, I don't think the sound of the arrow makes much difference to the deer. You can tell the difference, but if you're shooting at a relaxed deer I doubt the little bit of sound matters.


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## sethro02

i agree short distances wont matter as much with flight noise but...i'll stand firm in my thoughts of why i want quiter arrow flight at longer distances...i know this thread got a little busy today was hoping to see some heads in the mail but none....should be getting a razortrick soon, so that would make 3 heads to add to the list...hopefully tomorrow.


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## sethro02

while we are waitng on heads to be tested.........for all of you hardcore followers i have a question...what would you want to see in a test? First please do not tell me to shoot all of these heads again or at long range...i may do long range but not with near as many heads...so. If you could only see one type of test, broadhead, arrow test or anything what would it be?


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## Rothhar1

sethro02 said:


> while we are waitng on heads to be tested.........for all of you hardcore followers i have a question...what would you want to see in a test? First please do not tell me to shoot all of these heads again or at long range...i may do long range but not with near as many heads...so. If you could only see one type of test, broadhead, arrow test or anything what would it be?


Did you shoot the FPs ??


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## sethro02

im shooting field points in round 11 that will be shot this week


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## Rothhar1

sethro02 said:


> im shooting field points in round 11 that will be shot this week


K thank you will look for it later then .


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## 206Moose

sethro02 said:


> i agree short distances wont matter as much with flight noise but...i'll stand firm in my thoughts of why i want quiter arrow flight at longer distances...i know this thread got a little busy today was hoping to see some heads in the mail but none....should be getting a razortrick soon, so that would make 3 heads to add to the list...hopefully tomorrow.


Razortrick was mailed this morning not sure how long it takes from va to in hopefully not long. 

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2


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## 0nepin

Hey bud I got some arrows package for you and the blades for you to together a rage digger with the ferrule you already Have . I have four sets of blades that are going to show up this week so I can send one to jaysibs for his daughter to get her first deer With ,thats going to be cool.and I'm putting togather some for Bigtoot with his parts.going to be busy week.


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## sethro02

ok great! i'll be checking mail! im anxious to see how the ulmer edge all steel does from 50 yards....hopefully i hit the mark on the first shot!


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## Northern Archer

I would like to see the Gravedigger and Ramcat heads at a distance with your setup. I shoot 50 to 60 regular and know how my results are and would like to see yours as a comparison. I shoot a Z7 Xtreme at 27/66 pound draw.
Hey Grizz ready for Moose yet? Only five weeks away!!


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## sethro02

Onepin i'll be sending you a couple of raging ulmers


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## sethro02

well i sold the ramcats but im getting more gravediggers so i'll see if i can do that after i get the rest of the test heads out of the way


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## Michael Myers

sethro02 said:


> well i sold the ramcats but im getting more gravediggers so i'll see if i can do that after i get the rest of the test heads out of the way


Your getting more Grave diggers?What happend to the others,I am hoping mine arrive tommorow or Wednesday,Today was a Holliday,I am going away Wednesday for 5 Days...Grizz


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## TimmyZ7

Geeze OnePin, did you smack someone's Grandmother, lol. They sent the mongrels after you bud.


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## 206Moose

sethro02 said:


> while we are waitng on heads to be tested.........for all of you hardcore followers i have a question...what would you want to see in a test? First please do not tell me to shoot all of these heads again or at long range...i may do long range but not with near as many heads...so. If you could only see one type of test, broadhead, arrow test or anything what would it be?


Perhaps a penetration test using arrows that range from 5 grains per lb up to 8 or 9 grains per lb. Maybe even do it from 50 to 80 lbs draw weight. Just use field point so the weight alone would determine penetration. No idea as to what to shoot into. Sand? Dont think I've ever seen that used before. 

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2


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## sethro02

ntymadater.....your on the right track of what i thought to do next...no broadheads, just field points and different weights...except instead of sand im looking at the hipps targets?! I heard they are hands down the most consistent made target


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## sethro02

grizz i have shot the other 3 to death! some have also been "customized"


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## nolimitarchery

Grizz,
I have determined that shipping to Canada Sucks. If you don't have your heads when you leave I am truly sorry. As you know I shipped them awhile ago. If you don't get them please PM me and I will have the distributor in Canada send you out some packs and I will just replace his. 

Seth, 
Yours went out today.

I want to thank the AT members for the great response that everyone has taken to the Grave Digger. I look forward to seeing the pics and please go to the website and upload your pics and stories. weekender7 has already taken 2 hogs with them and they will be on the site soon.

Thank you again
Dale


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## Northern Archer

Hey Grizz, I will be dealing Gravediggers for Dale in Canada if you need more.


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## Michael Myers

Northern Archer said:


> I would like to see the Gravedigger and Ramcat heads at a distance with your setup. I shoot 50 to 60 regular and know how my results are and would like to see yours as a comparison. I shoot a Z7 Xtreme at 27/66 pound draw.
> Hey Grizz ready for Moose yet? Only five weeks away!!


Ya Calf huntin i think this year unless there is a Surplus of Tags Aug 20th,We have lots of Moose in Ompah area,If i have only a Calf Tag,I am still gonna try and Put an arrow in one.I Love moose meat.Lol Grizz


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## Northern Archer

By the way Dale, I should be able to start posting Gravedigger bear pics shortly as Ontario Bear opens in just over a week. Hopefully my stock of them will be here before. Also the fact that Canada Post delivery sucks is no fault of yours. Everything you have done to supply me has been prompt!! Two thumbs up for Dale and NoLimitArchery!


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## nolimitarchery

NTYMADATER said:


> Perhaps a penetration test using arrows that range from 5 grains per lb up to 8 or 9 grains per lb. Maybe even do it from 50 to 80 lbs draw weight. Just use field point so the weight alone would determine penetration. No idea as to what to shoot into. Sand? Dont think I've ever seen that used before.
> 
> Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2


I will say this about penetration. I have switched to the Victory VAP's and I have never seen anything like them. I have added a little weight to the front which put my FOC at 12% and they rock. 416 gr. 70# PSE EVO 6 313 fps


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## Michael Myers

Northern Archer said:


> Hey Grizz, I will be dealing Gravediggers for Dale in Canada if you need more.


Cool,Like to get mine first but i might be able to get 3-4 of my Buddies to Switch,All depends,My Old man is Very interested but wants to see what mine will do on the Target and Such.He shoots Rage,Slick Tricks and Muzzy's so..Who Knows.Grizz


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## nolimitarchery

Northern Archer said:


> By the way Dale, I should be able to start posting Gravedigger bear pics shortly as Ontario Bear opens in just over a week. Hopefully my stock of them will be here before. Also the fact that Canada Post delivery sucks is no fault of yours. Everything you have done to supply me has been prompt!! Two thumbs up for Dale and NoLimitArchery!


I will be up there next year hunting with you for sure.

Thanks
Dale


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## Michael Myers

nolimitarchery said:


> Grizz,
> I have determined that shipping to Canada Sucks. If you don't have your heads when you leave I am truly sorry. As you know I shipped them awhile ago. If you don't get them please PM me and I will have the distributor in Canada send you out some packs and I will just replace his.
> 
> Seth,
> Yours went out today.
> 
> I want to thank the AT members for the great response that everyone has taken to the Grave Digger. I look forward to seeing the pics and please go to the website and upload your pics and stories. weekender7 has already taken 2 hogs with them and they will be on the site soon.
> 
> Thank you again
> Dale


Oh i imagine they will be here this week,I aint leaving anywhere unless i get a Bull tag,I Can drive to my Buddies camp in an hour and be huntin Calf moose.Mail from the U.s usually takes a week,I Have dealt a lot in the U.S,Sometimes it takes longer,I Dont blame you Dale,Its just a Headache waitin for them,I Know your a Man of your Word and Respect you shipping them to me.Grizz


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## Michael Myers

Northern Archer said:


> By the way Dale, I should be able to start posting Gravedigger bear pics shortly as Ontario Bear opens in just over a week. Hopefully my stock of them will be here before. Also the fact that Canada Post delivery sucks is no fault of yours. Everything you have done to supply me has been prompt!! Two thumbs up for Dale and NoLimitArchery!


Ya i wish our season opened Mid August instead of 2nd week of Sept,The bears only stay on our baits until the 20th of Sept or So,So we get about 10-14 Days of Serious bear hunting,How about up North?Any in Camp this year?Lol


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## Fortyneck

GrizzlyMan1980 said:


> Sending people Hate mail is Pathetic Bud,I Dont care if you wanna cry over your favourite broadhead but other Stuff is Personal,Imo.If you have problem with what i say...I Dont care,And i hope you feel the same way with me.Have a Great Day,Grizz


Ok ,Grizz, it seems like you think I was defending sending anybody "Hate mail." 

What I was talking about was healthy, discussion between people with different opinions, in an open forum, *not* PM'ing anybody with "Hate mail."


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## Michael Myers

Fortyneck said:


> Ok ,Grizz, it seems like you think I was defending sending anybody "Hate mail."
> 
> What I was talking about was healthy, discussion between people with different opinions, in an open forum, *not* PM'ing anybody with "Hate mail."


I Know you werent,I Meant others who did and what i meant with the rest was Not Everybody is going to agree but that's ok,Because really it should only matter what you believe in and Use,Cheers,Grizz


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## 0nepin

nolimitarchery said:


> I will say this about penetration. I have switched to the Victory VAP's and I have never seen anything like them. I have added a little weight to the front which put my FOC at 12% and they rock. 416 gr. 70# PSE EVO 6 313 fps


I did want thanks Dale for make outstanding broadheads . My son has been practicing with them and they fly perfect and they are very easy to keep scary sharp.


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## 0nepin

TimmyZ7 said:


> Geeze OnePin, did you smack someone's Grandmother, lol. They sent the mongrels after you bud.


 haha no grandmother slapping for me , I did the worst thing you can do on AT.I said that slicktrick are not the perfect broadhead.


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## Michael Myers

0nepin said:


> haha no grandmother slapping for me , I did the worst thing you can do on AT.I said that slicktrick are not the perfect broadhead.


Lol,There not the best head i have ever hunted with the Rage 2 Blade is,But I am really liking the Gravediggers and Hopefully i will get great results.And i even like Slick Tricks,Just not Married to any Broadhead.Like some others are,Each to there Own,I Like All kinds,Shhhhh!!


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## NMhunter

nolimitarchery said:


> I want to thank the AT members for the great response that everyone has taken to the Grave Digger.
> 
> Thank you again
> Dale


Dale, there is just something awsome and special about these heads! I haven't been able to quit playing with mine since I got them last week! I took one out of the package and designated it for just fun! What an awsome design!
If it weren't for this thread I probably would have never heard of them. So, thanks again Sethro!


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## sethro02

Your welcome man please post kill pics later! Good luck


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## Boghdóir

To answer your question Seth, I think a great test would be a noise test from the target. I don't recall ever seeing one. You could pit some kind of decimal meter on the target and blast away. It would be interesting, from at least 40 yards. I think you already mentioned something like it way back when.

Or, maybe a small game head comparison. I hunt rabbits a lot and there are some very different heads out there, I have tried a lot myself but would like to see a scientific comparison.

Also, you have a pretty wife you can use as an assistant more , not that you aren't pretty but if I am going to watch a video...

Also maybe set up a designated test area so I am not distracted by your deer in the blanket. Kinda weird.

Also, nice Chevy. I should have been a landscaper.


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## Smoknnca

NTYMADATER said:


> Perhaps a penetration test using arrows that range from 5 grains per lb up to 8 or 9 grains per lb. Maybe even do it from 50 to 80 lbs draw weight. Just use field point so the weight alone would determine penetration. No idea as to what to shoot into. Sand? Dont think I've ever seen that used before.
> 
> Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2


Already been done by elk nut that's why I am happy Seth has done his it is the final piece for my puzzle. Search threads for elknut, he has found that efficient arrow weight is 6.5 to 6.7 grains per pound. I may be sightly off but less than .4 grains.


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## Smoknnca

sethro02 said:


> while we are waitng on heads to be tested.........for all of you hardcore followers i have a question...what would you want to see in a test? First please do not tell me to shoot all of these heads again or at long range...i may do long range but not with near as many heads...so. If you could only see one type of test, broadhead, arrow test or anything what would it be?


Seth,
I would love to see a penetration test into gelatin after some metal plate, steel drum if you will. Maybe use the 3 best and 3 worst heads and using different arrows. I may have some more VAPs to donate for the test with some more outserts. Or better yet the 5 most posted broadheads listed in this thread. Bring on the 50 yard test!


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## UTGrad

Wow! Guess I'm not the only ••• hole on this thread anymore.


----------



## mikajay

All steel Gravediggers 125 grs.

!!!???

Just dreming.

r.mika


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## sethro02

First off elknut did an awesome test...i think he used the same draw weight and the arrows were similar in weight right ? Or their was a few different weights maybe? Second my landscaping did not pay for the suburban! I work to put gas in the damn thing.


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## sethro02

125 grain gravediggers are in the making I believe.


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## sethro02

Im also thinking decibal meter at the bow as well


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## roughneck1

Northern Archer said:


> By the way Dale, I should be able to start posting Gravedigger bear pics shortly as Ontario Bear opens in just over a week. Hopefully my stock of them will be here before. Also the fact that Canada Post delivery sucks is no fault of yours. Everything you have done to supply me has been prompt!! Two thumbs up for Dale and NoLimitArchery!


Don't forget to shoot me a PM when you get them. My group drew a bull moose tag this year and I might give these heads a go.


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## sethro02

Im jealous of all you big game hunters


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## seiowabow

0nepin said:


> haha no grandmother slapping for me , I did the worst thing you can do on AT.I said that slicktrick are not the perfect broadhead.


Haha...that's not it at all. No one said tricks were perfect, but mechs are faaaar from it. And you are the guy that said mechs never fail. Hahaha...right.

Sent from my DROID4 using Tapatalk 2


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## KMD

Boghdóir said:


> To answer your question Seth, I think a great test would be a noise test from the target. I don't recall ever seeing one. You could pit some kind of decimal meter on the target and blast away. It would be interesting, from at least 40 yards. I think you already mentioned something like it way back when.



that would be SUPER to see a sound meter set AT the target.

The meter would register the sound of the bow reflexing FIRST, followed by any subsequent noise that each broadhead makes during its flight toward it.
Remember, the arrow needs time to accelerate and reach a certain speed before it generates any _perceptable_ sound waves, so that is all the more "lead" the original sound has to reach the target first. True, all soundwaves travel the same speed, but the lag time of the arrow, due to it's slower velocity, will insure that any sound generated will be heard AFTER the initial noise of the bow at release. 


(BTW, shouldernuke, your tit for tat ramblings just scored another ignore list)


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## eltaco

KMD said:


> that would be SUPER to see a sound meter set AT the target.
> 
> The meter would register the sound of the bow reflexing FIRST, followed by any subsequent noise that each broadhead makes during its flight toward it.
> Remember, the arrow needs time to accelerate and reach a certain speed before it generates any _perceptable_ sound waves, so that is all the more "lead" the original sound has to reach the target first. True, all soundwaves travel the same speed, but the lag time of the arrow, due to it's slower velocity, will insure that any sound generated will be heard AFTER the initial noise of the bow at release.
> 
> 
> (BTW, shouldernuke, your tit for tat ramblings just scored another ignore list)


Here we go again. I know your thoughts on bow noise vs arrow noise, but educate yourself a little bit before coming with the argument.

The arrow is not ACCELLERATING after it leaves the bow, it is DECELLERATING at the very instant it leaves the bow string. Nothing is forcing it forward after that instant. The noise intensity is increasing from the moment you release the trigger until it leaves the bow, at which point it will SLOWLY decrease in speed until it reaches the target. So if anything, the arrow is making the first perceivable noise as it would be more detectable than the bowstring moving through air... but of course that is a fraction of a second so hardly worth noting. The majority of the noise of the bow occurs when the arrow is released from the string, which just also happens to be the fastest (and noisiest) the arrow will be in its entire flight.

It's honestly an easy test to conduct, go stand in a safe location downrange of your buddy shooting. Have him shoot at 80yds and stand behind something off to the side of the target. You'll quickly realize that a noisy broadhead is FAR more noteable in flight than the sound of the bow 80yds away. 

FWIW, I've shot over a sound meter at distance, and the sound of the bow did not even register, but you could see a quick spike as the arrow approached and left the target. It's really a simple concept, just because I shout at you from CO doesn't mean you can hear it, even though it would read on a soundmeter that's sitting next to me. Distance from the source is the key to the equation... the key that people like to forget when arguing about bow noise.


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## 0nepin

My arrow were leaving my bow at 347fps .you could here the slicktrick as soon as they left the bow.arrow don't get faster the farther they get from the bow.I missed your point.


KMD said:


> that would be SUPER to see a sound meter set AT the target.
> 
> The meter would register the sound of the bow reflexing FIRST, followed by any subsequent noise that each broadhead makes during its flight toward it.
> Remember, the arrow needs time to accelerate and reach a certain speed before it generates any _perceptable_ sound waves, so that is all the more "lead" the original sound has to reach the target first. True, all soundwaves travel the same speed, but the lag time of the arrow, due to it's slower velocity, will insure that any sound generated will be heard AFTER the initial noise of the bow at release.
> 
> 
> (BTW, shouldernuke, your tit for tat ramblings just scored another ignore list)


----------



## 0nepin

seiowabow said:


> Haha...that's not it at all. No one said tricks were perfect, but mechs are faaaar from it. And you are the guy that said mechs never fail. Hahaha...right.
> 
> Sent from my DROID4 using Tapatalk 2


I have never had any head fail.they all work if we do our job.learn to shoot and no head will fail you either.


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## goathollow

KMD said:


> that would be SUPER to see a sound meter set AT the target.
> 
> The meter would register the sound of the bow reflexing FIRST, followed by any subsequent noise that each broadhead makes during its flight toward it.
> Remember, the arrow needs time to accelerate and reach a certain speed before it generates any _perceptable_ sound waves, so that is all the more "lead" the original sound has to reach the target first. True, all soundwaves travel the same speed, but the lag time of the arrow, due to it's slower velocity, will insure that any sound generated will be heard AFTER the initial noise of the bow at release.
> 
> 
> (BTW, shouldernuke, your tit for tat ramblings just scored another ignore list)


KMD: I'm on the bandwagon for the bow noise being more important than the arrow noise (note: I am not saying arrow noise plays no part). But, I'm not sure that the decibel meter at the target would pick up the noise of the arrow until it is just a few feet away....unless its a really good decible meter and their is zero back ground noise. Maybe a sound recorder might be more in order for that test. But we're getting waaaaaaaaaaaaay to technical for my abilities. 

If its affordable, maybe having a meter at the bow, one midway and one 3 ft from impact seems like it would be interesting. Even then, background noise (or the lack thereof) would be important. I could see that test having several tenticles, 1.) arrow weight vs noise 2.) fletching type vs noise; 3.) broadhead type vs noise; 4.) All the above plus arrow speed vs noise 5.) all the above plus distance vs noice.

Heck Seth, you're young you can make this your life's work :wink: Realistically, doing all that would not be economically nor time feasible and I realize that.


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## seiowabow

0nepin said:


> My arrow were leaving my bow at 347fps .you could here the slicktrick as soon as they left the bow.arrow don't get faster the farther they get from the bow.I missed your point.


They are alot louder from behind the arrow. I shoot them at 320, yes they whistle but not that bad if your in front of the arrow. They are louder than muzzys, shuttle t's

Sent from my DROID4 using Tapatalk 2


----------



## seiowabow

0nepin said:


> I have never had any head fail.they all work if we do our job.learn to shoot and no head will fail you either.


Anything that has moving parts, can and will eventually fail. 

Sent from my DROID4 using Tapatalk 2


----------



## sethro02

To kmd: I am going to respectfully disagree with your assumtion that the 5 deer I shot dropped bc of bow noise. If the deer would have heard the.bow, they would have dropped a lot quicker since the speed of sound is way faster than my 260fps arrow. I was shooting a bear truth 2 at 65lbs with a 440g arrow. There is no way you can hear that bow at 50yards.

To eveyone else: imo bow noise and arrow.noise balance each other out as equals. What I mean is 30yards and under bow noise is relevant arrow noise is irrelevant. 45 yards and above arrow noise is relevant and bow noise is moderately irrelevant...typed by 
Seth's lovely assistant (bc he is driving)


----------



## Michael Myers

Guess what showed up today?My New HHa Sight and My Gravediggers!!!Sweet!!!


----------



## sethro02

Congrats grizz..special thx to canadian mail!


----------



## Fortyneck

TimmyZ7 said:


> Geeze OnePin, did you smack someone's Grandmother, lol. They sent the mongrels after you bud.


The Mongrels don't have a problem with Frankenfurter.




0nepin said:


> haha no grandmother slapping for me , I did the worst thing you can do on AT.I said that slicktrick are not the perfect broadhead.













UTGrad said:


> Wow! Guess I'm not the only ••• hole on this thread anymore.


----------



## Michael Myers

sethro02 said:


> Congrats grizz..special thx to canadian mail!


Hahah,About time,Now to put the Hha together and Slap it on my Gx 6.Warp Speed,Thats his Nickname.Grizz


----------



## eltaco

Seth, will the Solids make it into the next test?


----------



## Yorklobster

I think it would be beneficial to do a low poundage test. It seems like that's come up quite a bit here. Not everyone shoots 70 or 80. I now shoot 55 lbs because of 2 ruptured discs in my back. I'm guessing that would seriously change some of the outcomes on the machanicals? 
If you want to completely flip the lid....how about noise testing on tree stands? I've always thought it'd be great to have a decibel reader out to 20 yards like an actual deer. I hunt a lot out of ladders and it's the one thing that will blow a shot- a squeek from a stand!!



sethro02 said:


> while we are waitng on heads to be tested.........for all of you hardcore followers i have a question...what would you want to see in a test? First please do not tell me to shoot all of these heads again or at long range...i may do long range but not with near as many heads...so. If you could only see one type of test, broadhead, arrow test or anything what would it be?


----------



## 0nepin

UTGrad said:


> Wow! Guess I'm not the only ••• hole on this thread anymore.


Yea you and fortyredneck and seiowabowinbread and oldcootowl should start a club and name it sand in da panties because my broadhead is not as good as I thought it was.And let not forget your president NTYnothinigisaymatters.


----------



## sethro02

Solids will be tested next


----------



## Kstigall

I'm curious as to how some of the heads would have held up to more "power". I suspect heads that did somewhat poorly would do worse with more "oomph" (highly scientific term commonly used to describe a combination of KE and Mo) behind them.

I am NOT suggesting more tests. Especially since the "oomph" Seth generated with his gear probably is more than or close to what I produce.


----------



## 0nepin

The deer whistles fell off my wife car so I replaced them with slicktrick and they work better.here oldcootowl a new slogan ,Slicktricks it a like shooting a deer whistle at a deer.The slicktrick do look mean on the Lexus .


----------



## Michael Myers

All this time waiting for my Hha sight and the guy didnt put the Quiver bracketts in when he shipped it,Unreal,Wow,Am i ever having bad luck the last month,Nice sight though.Would be nice to Attach my Quiver....Ahhh!!Waiting for the Mail today is a Nightmare,I Will find out if i got a Doe Tag or not....Grizz


----------



## KMD

eltaco said:


> Here we go again. I know your thoughts on bow noise vs arrow noise, but educate yourself a little bit before coming with the argument.
> 
> The arrow is not ACCELLERATING after it leaves the bow, it is DECELLERATING at the very instant it leaves the bow string. Nothing is forcing it forward after that instant. The noise intensity is increasing from the moment you release the trigger until it leaves the bow, at which point it will SLOWLY decrease in speed until it reaches the target. So if anything, the arrow is making the first perceivable noise as it would be more detectable than the bowstring moving through air... but of course that is a fraction of a second so hardly worth noting. The majority of the noise of the bow occurs when the arrow is released from the string, which just also happens to be the fastest (and noisiest) the arrow will be in its entire flight.
> 
> It's honestly an easy test to conduct, go stand in a safe location downrange of your buddy shooting. Have him shoot at 80yds and stand behind something off to the side of the target. You'll quickly realize that a noisy broadhead is FAR more noteable in flight than the sound of the bow 80yds away.
> 
> FWIW, I've shot over a sound meter at distance, and the sound of the bow did not even register, but you could see a quick spike as the arrow approached and left the target. It's really a simple concept, just because I shout at you from CO doesn't mean you can hear it, even though it would read on a soundmeter that's sitting next to me. Distance from the source is the key to the equation... the key that people like to forget when arguing about bow noise.




eltaco, when did I say the arrow was accelerating after LEAVING THE BOW???
You interpret my post incorrectly.
The arrow starts at 0 fps and accelerates throughout the string cycle up until release, no kidding! I didn't think I had to spell that out to most average minded archers.

The only point I've been trying to make this whole time is that the sound of the bow will ALWAYS beat the sound of the arrow to the target.

A
L
W
A
Y
S

Whether that noise from that particular bow shot under those conditions is perceptable to one particular animal is delving into semantics (hypotheticals & supposition).
If you want to attribute a deer to jumping "broadhead whistle" as opposed to bow/string noise, then go right ahead.

Unless that arrow itself is breaking the sound barrier, the soundwaves produced by the bow/string will ALWAYS reach the target before arrow/broadhead noise does.
IF that FACT is not true, please tell me how your arrow defies the laws of Physics???
Do you hunt in a vaccuum, perhaps?


----------



## 0nepin

I can't tell you this ,I can't hear my sons bow at 40yrd because it's very quiet but I can hear the slicktrick arrow 20yrds befor it get to the target.


----------



## Boghdóir

My question would be then:

If a game animal ignores the distant sound of a bow, but maybe is alerted by it, and hears an arrow from 20 yards away moving let's say 250 fps, that would give the deer about 1/4 of a second to hear, think, and move out of the path of the arrow. Is that possible?


----------



## Boghdóir

I googled it. The fastest human sprinters in the world have a little over a 100 millisecond reaction time. So a tenth of a second, but then you have to move. It would be close, but I bet if a deer say was on high alert from the bow sound and ready to jump, 1/4 of a second would do it.


----------



## Viper69

0nepin said:


> the deer whistles fell off my wife car so i replaced them with slicktrick and they work better.here oldcootowl a new slogan ,slicktricks it a like shooting a deer whistle at a deer.the slicktrick do look mean on the lexus .


lol


----------



## Boghdóir

Lol whew! Oh man, sorry that's funny.


----------



## chaded

:set1_rolf2:


----------



## GarrickTX

No need for name calling... This site does not require a cc to create an account, you don't know who you may be influencing. And none of you are doing any good arguing at eachother, take a second to think about how little you are becoming by arguing over the internet... If someone doesn't agree with your way of thinking and debating about it leads to an arguement, why keep brining it up??? This is NOT an attack at anyone I would just like to see us get back on topic and cordial before the thread gets locked.


----------



## eltaco

KMD said:


> eltaco, when did I say the arrow was accelerating after LEAVING THE BOW???
> You interpret my post incorrectly.
> The arrow starts at 0 fps and accelerates throughout the string cycle up until release, no kidding! I didn't think I had to spell that out to most average minded archers.
> 
> The only point I've been trying to make this whole time is that the sound of the bow will ALWAYS beat the sound of the arrow to the target.
> 
> A
> L
> W
> A
> Y
> S
> 
> Whether that noise from that particular bow shot under those conditions is perceptable to one particular animal is delving into semantics (hypotheticals & supposition).
> If you want to attribute a deer to jumping "broadhead whistle" as opposed to bow/string noise, then go right ahead.
> 
> Unless that arrow itself is breaking the sound barrier, the soundwaves produced by the bow/string will ALWAYS reach the target before arrow/broadhead noise does.
> IF that FACT is not true, please tell me how your arrow defies the laws of Physics???
> Do you hunt in a vaccuum, perhaps?


Its not just semantics, its simple physics. Sound waves do not retain energy through any medium as they travel distance. If I whisper to you at 100yds, you're not going to hear it just because my whisper travels at the speed of sound. You can't just ignore the physics that don't agree with your argument... that's what you're trying to do, like it or not.

While I do agree that quieting a bow is very important, I do believe there's a distance where a quiet bow shot is nowhere near as alarming as a loud broadhead in flight. If you want facts, do the test yourself as I have. You might just be surprised with what you hear (or don't) when shooting longer distances. Some heads sound like a scud missile in flight, enough that I can't detect a bow going off at distance.


----------



## evasiveone

If you do decide to do a sound test the base test can be shooting away from the sound meter so you get just the bow sound.


----------



## sethro02

Maybe to clean this up a bit..if you have idea plz pm me


----------



## sethro02

THERE WILL BE A TEST TONIGHT! Nothing else came in the mail so im testing what i have left.

OFFICIAL TESTING:
1.Sonoran xbow 2 blade (mechanical)
2. Solid Broadhead (fixed)

UNOFFICIAL TESTING:
1. Trophy Taker Ulmer Edge Steel 125 grain with easton injexion shot at 50 yards into contraption
2. Sabermaxx broadhead on a victory vap 350 arrow shot at the standard 20 yard test


----------



## Rothhar1

sethro02 said:


> THERE WILL BE A TEST TONIGHT! Nothing else came in the mail so im testing what i have left.
> 
> OFFICIAL TESTING:
> 1.Sonoran xbow 2 blade (mechanical)
> 2. Solid Broadhead (fixed)
> 
> UNOFFICIAL TESTING:
> 1. Trophy Taker Ulmer Edge Steel 125 grain with easton injexion shot at 50 yards into contraption
> 2. Sabermaxx broadhead on a victory vap 350 arrow shot at the standard 20 yard test


And Feild points !!! 100 and 125 its more important here than some think!!! For compairative sake!


----------



## sethro02

oh crap yea....and FIELDPOINTS WILL BE TESTED!


----------



## public land

sethro and chance to test the Crimson Talon "Hyper-Speed XT™ features eleven rigid airfoils—the faster the shot, the more spin-stabilization occurs" 
Super easy head to tune.
My friend has great success with these although my guess is the durability and penetration will suffer on the plywood.
1 because they spin 2 the blades are only .024

Thanks for all your hard work


----------



## axeforce6

Enough already... No need to have a pissing match over broadheads guys. Shoot what your comfortable with. And let Seth test! lol


----------



## corey006

NTYMADATER said:


> Let the debate begin.
> 
> Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2


Why don't you start *YOUR OWN* thread instead of cluttering this one up....this is SETH's thread for testing and we can discuss the results.

We don't need pages of pizzing and moaning about a total stranger's choice in archery gear???

WHO CARES!!!

MODs, please start nuking all these useless posts from the KEYBOARD commandos.


----------



## sethro02

If you have a crimson talon to donate I will test it..im kinda running low on funds..i was trying to wrap this test up this week


----------



## public land

Onepin : you may have a better choice for the deer whistlers on the lexus 

Crimson Talon "Hyper-Speed XT™ features eleven rigid airfoils—the faster the shot, the more spin-stabilization occurs"

Is that my bush pilot coming to pick me up, oh no that's my friends moms deer whistlers. LOL


----------



## Ou224

NTYMADATER said:


> Perhaps a penetration test using arrows that range from 5 grains per lb up to 8 or 9 grains per lb. Maybe even do it from 50 to 80 lbs draw weight. Just use field point so the weight alone would determine penetration. No idea as to what to shoot into. Sand? Dont think I've ever seen that used before.
> 
> Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2


Elknut1 did an arrow weight vs penetration test. Great info. 

http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=1731614


----------



## public land

sethro02 Ill email MidAlantic archery products maby they will donate one to the cause if not my friend may.
Ill reply to pm sorry for clogging up the thread with my last humor post.

Thank You


----------



## TimmyZ7

The general evaluation of mechanicals is not entirely open minded. Seth did post that he is only shooting these heads at a low poundage. Obviously, the mechanical heads are not being tested at their full potential. I am a fan of both mechanical and fixed heads as I shoot them both but this is far from the factual representation of what they would do to an animal. Over the top expandables open much faster on hide then they would impacting wood because the hide has some stretch that pulls the blades out faster as opposed to the wood pressing them straight back. This would change the "dependability" score and ultimately the ranking if it were on a live animal. If you shot the heads with a higher k.e. and both fixed and mechanical heads passed through intact then clearly you could not argue against the larger mechanical or the head that cut the most could also be considered the head that would cause the most trauma. This is not to say one is less sufficient than the other. The sufficiency of a quality broadhead also depends on the person shooting it with the proper spine, weight and momentum. If both types achieve a pass through then both passed the two hole test IMO. 

I agree with what Oldhootowl said in regards to ballistic gel vs an animal. There is no blood lubricating the arrow/broadhead in the gel. The reaction of flesh to tear away instead of close up such as with ballistic gel is also a notable difference. The closing up effect on longer blades and the added friction means that larger mech heads will not necessarily penetrate as well on a balistic gel test. However, in Seth's test some did penetrate pretty close considering the larger barriers for the larger heads. These points are what have made the mechanical heads impressive regardless of their rank on the spread sheet. 

If you added the momentum; weight + K.E. + speed, for the additional material being pushed through, so that both types are driven through with the correct amount then you would see they are much closer in performance then this test portrays. Consider a 4 cylinder car (60k.e. bow) vs. an 8 cylinder car (80k.e. bow) in a heads up race. If you forced the 8 cyclinder to run on 4 cylinders with the same fuel to be "fair" (same arrow/low k.e.) what you would have is a heavier drive train deprived of the essentials needed to launch it all full potential and thus the 4 cylinder at peak performance is superior in the race. However, if you turn all eight cylinders on (larger cut broadhead) and supplied them with the higher octane fuel to burn (momentum; speed + weight + k.e.- the energy transferred from the limbs of a bow to an arrow) with the proper driver (archer who can accurately shoot the higher k.e. bow) then the 8 cylinder has the greatest potential and could achieve much further then that of the four cylinder (larger amount of cut/blood). 

Oldhootowl, argues continuously that a fourth blade cutting is what makes his heads superior to a three blade. However he has only gone as far as to say the Grizz Trick (My favorite S/T) is comparable to a 1.5" mech and that is the limit although it has a 2.5" cutting surface. Therefore a head that cuts beyond that and passes through just the same, intact, is capable of causing more trauma by that same reasoning. The test represents the limit of each head utilizing the exact same setup as Seth used and is not a Fact as to what each head does as momentum increases. As far as because it is mechanical it can fail bit, that is only genuine if you are shooting a trad bow because if not that mechanical bow makes that statement hypocritical.


----------



## dtrkyman

i have talons, hypers and regular if you want them pm me addy.


----------



## Michael Myers

dtrkyman said:


> i have talons, hypers and regular if you want them pm me addy.


Do you still have any Viper Venoms kicking around ,I Sent 1 to Seth but it got Destroyed in Mail,How long did you shoot them,I googled them looking for the Name and seen you were high on them way back in time,I have 2 Left,Bought a Pack for 14 Bucks at Wally mart 3-4 Years ago.Grizz


----------



## aight its jake

it doesnt bother me what people shoot, its what ever feels most comfortable to them. mechanicals are known to cut big holes and leave lots of blood. but you hit solid bone , it could have a chance of failing. fixed heads are known for reliability and strength. but you arent getting a huge hole or the same blood trail as a mech would leave. boht have advantages and disadvantages. its all about what YOU want to choose.


----------



## sethro02

Let me see if I get a donated talon..if not ill pm you.

Timmy good post...my axe6 cranked up can make these mechanicals blow through but once again im goin for average speed near 270fps people need to keep this in mind when talking about mechanicals. What you gain somewhere you give up in another area


----------



## nolimitarchery

I think your all nuts if your not shooting my broadhead, but i'm supposed to think that. :set1_rolf2::set1_rolf2::cheers:


----------



## Michael Myers

nolimitarchery said:


> I think your all nuts if your not shooting my broadhead, but i'm supposed to think that. :set1_rolf2::set1_rolf2::cheers:


Did what you said to do with the heads,Seems like it worked,Heading up to Pile Wood and Do some work at the camp tommorow night,Hopefully be testing the Grave Diggers as well,Having a hard time finding Batteries for my Hha in this Hick town...I Received my Onestringer Arrow "Grave Digger"-Pse Wraps..Wanna Looksy...Grizz


----------



## nolimitarchery

I am just glad you received them. I can't wait to see some pics of some animals. I am going to help on a friends Antelope hunt this weekend here in AZ.


----------



## nolimitarchery

Send me a pic of the wraps, please.


----------



## Michael Myers

GrizzlyMan1980 said:


> Did what you said to do with the heads,Seems like it worked,Heading up to Pile Wood and Do some work at the camp tommorow night,Hopefully be testing the Grave Diggers as well,Having a hard time finding Batteries for my Hha in this Hick town...I Received my Onestringer Arrow "Grave Digger"-Pse Wraps..Wanna Looksy...Grizz


Here they are 5" Arrow Wraps,There for Easton Axis N-Fused Arrows.


----------



## nolimitarchery

Those are cool. I may need to get some of them.


----------



## Michael Myers

nolimitarchery said:


> Those are cool. I may need to get some of them.


Camera Phone they look better in Person Fades Black to red to White with Lighning Strikes.Part Mettalica Fade to Black from Ride the Lightining to Pse to Grave Diggger...Grizz


----------



## 206Moose

TimmyZ7 said:


> The general evaluation of mechanicals is not entirely open minded. Seth did post that he is only shooting these heads at a low poundage. Obviously, the mechanical heads are not being tested at their full potential. I am a fan of both mechanical and fixed heads as I shoot them both but this is far from the factual representation of what they would do to an animal. Over the top expandables open much faster on hide then they would impacting wood because the hide has some stretch that pulls the blades out faster as opposed to the wood pressing them straight back. This would change the "dependability" score and ultimately the ranking if it were on a live animal. If you shot the heads with a higher k.e. and both fixed and mechanical heads passed through intact then clearly you could not argue against the larger mechanical or the head that cut the most could also be considered the head that would cause the most trauma. This is not to say one is less sufficient than the other. The sufficiency of a quality broadhead also depends on the person shooting it with the proper spine, weight and momentum. If both types achieve a pass through then both passed the two hole test IMO.
> 
> I agree with what Oldhootowl said in regards to ballistic gel vs an animal. There is no blood lubricating the arrow/broadhead in the gel. The reaction of flesh to tear away instead of close up such as with ballistic gel is also a notable difference. The closing up effect on longer blades and the added friction means that larger mech heads will not necessarily penetrate as well on a balistic gel test. However, in Seth's test some did penetrate pretty close considering the larger barriers for the larger heads. These points are what have made the mechanical heads impressive regardless of their rank on the spread sheet.
> 
> If you added the momentum; weight + K.E. + speed, for the additional material being pushed through, so that both types are driven through with the correct amount then you would see they are much closer in performance then this test portrays. Consider a 4 cylinder car (60k.e. bow) vs. an 8 cylinder car (80k.e. bow) in a heads up race. If you forced the 8 cyclinder to run on 4 cylinders with the same fuel to be "fair" (same arrow/low k.e.) what you would have is a heavier drive train deprived of the essentials needed to launch it all full potential and thus the 4 cylinder at peak performance is superior in the race. However, if you turn all eight cylinders on (larger cut broadhead) and supplied them with the higher octane fuel to burn (momentum; speed + weight + k.e.- the energy transferred from the limbs of a bow to an arrow) with the proper driver (archer who can accurately shoot the higher k.e. bow) then the 8 cylinder has the greatest potential and could achieve much further then that of the four cylinder (larger amount of cut/blood).
> 
> Oldhootowl, argues continuously that a fourth blade cutting is what makes his heads superior to a three blade. However he has only gone as far as to say the Grizz Trick (My favorite S/T) is comparable to a 1.5" mech and that is the limit although it has a 2.5" cutting surface. Therefore a head that cuts beyond that and passes through just the same, intact, is capable of causing more trauma by that same reasoning. The test represents the limit of each head utilizing the exact same setup as Seth used and is not a Fact as to what each head does as momentum increases. As far as because it is mechanical it can fail bit, that is only genuine if you are shooting a trad bow because if not that mechanical bow makes that statement hypocritical.


Good post thank you


----------



## 206Moose

Ou224 said:


> Elknut1 did an arrow weight vs penetration test. Great info.
> 
> http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=1731614


Interesting test but he only tested 65 lb draw. Would be interesting to see what other draw weights would do. He come up with 6.4 to 6.7 grains per pound at 65 lb. draw.


----------



## Northern Archer

TOOO TRUE!!!!! Hee Hee. Come on get 'em while they're hot! Hope I see them soon.


----------



## sethro02

OK GUYS. UPDATE: just finished shooting the ulmer prototype and video taping it because it was getting dark so that is done...just a hint it did well...also im waiting for 2 vanes to dry to begin this next test: field point, sonoran xbow 2 blade, and solid standard...gimme a little bit, this is gonna be a minute


----------



## alwayslookin

GrizzlyMan1980 said:


> Do you still have any Viper Venoms kicking around ,I Sent 1 to Seth but it got Destroyed in Mail,How long did you shoot them,I googled them looking for the Name and seen you were high on them way back in time,I have 2 Left,Bought a Pack for 14 Bucks at Wally mart 3-4 Years ago.Grizz


It won't do well in any test if it can't fly through the mail.......sorry , had to say it.


----------



## sethro02

make your predictions! Round 11 combo,,,,already shot them so getting ready to post
1. field point, 100 grain
2. sonoran xbow 2blade
3. solid standard 100 grain


----------



## sethro02

Field point 100 grain test results:

penetration-10
durability- 5
dependability- 5
sharp before- 0
sharp after- 0
flight- 5
total score- 25 out of 35 (total penetration, 27")


----------



## Michael Myers

alwayslookin said:


> It won't do well in any test if it can't fly through the mail.......sorry , had to say it.


I Sent a Steelforce as well and it got destroyed....Just kidding,Lol.I Want to try Steelforce,Was so close to picking up a few packs from my Bowtech at South Nation Archery....Grizz


----------



## sethro02

sonoran xbow 2 blade 100 grain test results:
1 3/8" cutting diameter

penetration- 10
durability- 5
dependability- 5
sharp before- 4
sharp after- 4
flight- 5
total score- 33 out of 35 (total penetration, 13")


----------



## MarkBaHoi

The FP doing so well is interesting....

I like the Ulmer Edge as well as rage and gators so much that I bought a pack. The set screw feature is sweet! I got lucky and got a scary sharp pack!


----------



## sethro02

sonoran xbow entry


----------



## sethro02

keep in mind the fp is slightly larger than this shaft...i got the smallest one i had


----------



## sethro02

sonoran xbow gel


----------



## 0nepin

nolimitarchery said:


> I think your all nuts if your not shooting my broadhead, but i'm supposed to think that. :set1_rolf2::set1_rolf2::cheers:


They are awesome !!!!


----------



## MarkBaHoi

nolimitarchery said:


> I think your all nuts if your not shooting my broadhead, but i'm supposed to think that. :set1_rolf2::set1_rolf2::cheers:


Send me 6 of them and I'll shoot them @ whatever walks by!


----------



## sethro02

Solid Standard 100 grain test results:
1 1/8"x 3/8" cutting diameter

penetration- 10
durability- 5
dependability- 5
sharp before- 5
sharp after- 4
flight- 5
total score- 34 out of 35 ( total penetration, 17")


----------



## sethro02

solid entry


----------



## MarkBaHoi

Solid sharp after....OUCH.

Give us the deets on why it got a 4? The CX heads are looking great @ < $5 each!


----------



## 0nepin

Do you have pic of the field tip entry hole into the gel .jk.


----------



## sethro02

solid gel


----------



## eltaco

Nice!

Surprised you got the S30V to dull any... that has to have the best edge retention of any steel you've shot!

Thanks for running these, Seth! I've been waiting for a while to see that head tested!


----------



## sethro02

failed broadhead is coming up


----------



## sethro02

well it was close,,,,the solid could catch your finger nail if you know what i mean but not shaving,,,it was very close


----------



## sethro02

Ned250 if you are still around these 3 above all count as official test^^^^^^

the next 2 do not count but need them posted as unofficial please buddy!!!


----------



## sethro02

Sabermaxx with VAP 350 spine, aluminum penetrator insert/outsert weight is 383 grains, test results:

penetration- 8
durability- 0 FAIL
dependability- 2 (only gave it a 2 because at least it had an entry hole)
sharp before- 4
sharp after- 3
flight- 5
total score- 22 out of 35 (total penetration, 8")


----------



## sethro02

sorry this a Sabermaxx before the test


----------



## sethro02

sabermaxx entry


----------



## 0nepin

sethro02 said:


> make your predictions! Round 11 combo,,,,already shot them so getting ready to post
> 1. field point, 100 grain
> 2. sonoran xbow 2blade
> 3. solid standard 100 grain
> View attachment 1434672


Man that solid is one sweet looking broadhead ,almost to pretty to shoot.


----------



## sethro02

no i did not shoot that with my 12gauge


----------



## sethro02

sabermaxx gel entry (blades already broken off)


----------



## sethro02

sabermaxx gel exit


----------



## sethro02

round 11 combo after math with sabermaxx


----------



## Smoknnca

sethro02 said:


> round 11 combo after math with sabermaxx
> View attachment 1434727


Nice Seth. That's what I expected with that broadhead. Although I only expected the ring to snap and damage one blade. I would be interested in knowing if it did punch a hole in the plyboard.


----------



## sethro02

Trophy Taker Ulmer Edge Steel 125 grain ****40 YARD SHOT***** UNOFFICIAL***** WILL UPLOAD VIDEO LATER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

penetration- 11
durability- 4 (blades were slightly bent)
dependability- 5
sharp before- 5
sharp after- 4
flight- 5
total score- 34 out of 35 ( total penetration , 28")
REMINDER 40 YARDSSSSSSSSS


----------



## Smoknnca

Please use the vap with the ss outsert to see if you can wreck more damage.


----------



## alwayslookin

GrizzlyMan1980 said:


> I Sent a Steelforce as well and it got destroyed....Just kidding,Lol.I Want to try Steelforce,Was so close to picking up a few packs from my Bowtech at South Nation Archery....Grizz


Give em a run and let us know what you think !!!!!


----------



## TimmyZ7

Solid broadhead is a worthy competitor to the GK!:thumbs_up


----------



## sethro02

sabermaxx punched hole through first plywood


----------



## 0nepin

Wow thats impressive !!!!!!


sethro02 said:


> Trophy Taker Ulmer Edge Steel 125 grain ****40 YARD SHOT***** UNOFFICIAL***** WILL UPLOAD VIDEO LATER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
> 
> penetration- 11
> durability- 4 (blades were slightly bent)
> dependability- 5
> sharp before- 5
> sharp after- 4
> flight- 5
> total score- 34 out of 35 ( total penetration , 28")
> REMINDER 40 YARDSSSSSSSSS


----------



## sethro02

ulmer proto 40 yard entry


----------



## sethro02

ulmer proto gel 40 yards


----------



## Michael Myers

alwayslookin said:


> Give em a run and let us know what you think !!!!!


I Would but i am Going with Gravediggers this Year...But i am very impressed with Steelforce broadheads and would not hesitate to have them in my Quiver anytime.Grizz


----------



## sethro02

ulmer proto gel 2


----------



## sethro02

ulmer edge 125 40 yards aftermath


----------



## sethro02

only tabs were bent....easily fixable and back in the quiver


----------



## 0nepin

sethro02 said:


> ulmer proto 40 yard entry


Looks like one blade opened more than the other on entry .


----------



## alwayslookin

sethro02 said:


> Field point 100 grain test results:
> 
> penetration-10
> durability- 5
> dependability- 5
> sharp before- 0
> sharp after- 0
> flight- 5
> total score- 25 out of 35 (total penetration, 27")
> View attachment 1434675


See my previous comment regarding what would happen........it is really very typical.......a needle penetrates well because all of its energy is centered around and very close to its axis.
Very little energy in the arrow is dissipated away from the energy path ..... as with blades.....this is why we design our heads the way we do.....to contain as much of the energy in the cutting main blade. penetration issues have as much, if not more to do with the transfer of linear energy, than anything else.
Cool test , great job, we love the commentary. As I said before.....it seems as though a score of 31 plus will give the most consistent results......good news as there are a lot of great heads in the test.
Thanks Seth


----------



## goathollow

alwayslookin said:


> See my previous comment regarding what would happen........it is really very typical.......a needle penetrates well because all of its energy is centered around and very close to its axis.
> Very little energy in the arrow is dissipated away from the energy path ..... as with blades.....this is why we design our heads the way we do.....to contain as much of the energy in the cutting main blade. penetration issues have as much, if not more to do with the transfer of linear energy, than anything else.
> Cool test , great job, we love the commentary. As I said before.....it seems as though a score of 31 plus will give the most consistent results......good news as there are a lot of great heads in the test.
> Thanks Seth


Well, I think I understand :wink: that but proof is in the pudding and penetration is paramount to me (to each his own I'm not starting another spittin contest). I sure hope you are correct because I'm putting 125 grain Phatheads on my arrows this year. First broadhead switch in 27 years so I don't change just for giggles.


----------



## sethro02

trying to upload ulmer video


----------



## alwayslookin

goathollow said:


> Well, I think I understand :wink: that but proof is in the pudding and penetration is paramount to me (to each his own I'm not starting another spittin contest). I sure hope you are correct because I'm putting 125 grain Phatheads on my arrows this year. First broadhead switch in 27 years so I don't change just for giggles.


THANKS........that is my personal favorite........search for brdymakr's test.........and I shoot low 60# bows.......penetration is great. My outfitter friend shot completely thru a Moose last year......it just took 3 steps and fell over. My deer rarely get out of sight.


----------



## goathollow

sethro02 said:


> trying to upload ulmer video


How does a guy score a couple of the Ulmer 125s???:angel:


----------



## sethro02

i think the one i have is 1 of 7


----------



## goathollow

I suppose breaking and entering is still against the law???? If Randy needs a beta tester for his 125 I'd be happy to oblige!!


----------



## sethro02

haha you may have to take that up with him


----------



## sethro02

dang youtube....ulmer video sais 70 minutes to upload?! only 2 min long....as soon as its done i'll post it


----------



## Michael Myers

sethro02 said:


> dang youtube....ulmer video sais 70 minutes to upload?! only 2 min long....as soon as its done i'll post it


Wish i could watch it...Dial up here...Boonies,Lol But i like the Pictures...Those Ulmers look great,I Would like to try them, maybe.Great Testing again Seth,Grizz


----------



## sethro02

thanks guys, video should be ready by morning


----------



## Boghdóir

I was way wrong on the field point penetration, I thought because my broadheads go further into my target than my field points, it would happen here too. Live and learn.


----------



## 0nepin

Smoknnca said:


> Okay next can of worms. How much does sound decay at 30, 40, or 50 yards. If your bow is relatively quiet maybe 40-55 db then bow sound at 30-50 yards will not matter as much as a whistling missile.


This is alot of food for thought.


----------



## k&j8

0nepin said:


> Not bad bro , there is nothing wrong with trick I'm just after bigger cuts and better bloodtrails and *I like pushing the limits.*


...and some peoples buttons.:wink:


----------



## Grigorio

Seth,

I noticed on the Solid S30V you reported 1 1/8"x 3/8" *cutting diameter*.
On the VPA Vented you reported 3.75" *total cut surface*.
Did you have a reason for the different measurements or am I missing something?


----------



## lung smasher

Loving this post. I'm stuck between 3 heads now gravedigger, ulmer edge, and the old trusty reapers. But idk what I am going to go with. I'm only shooting 62 lbs from maxxis 35 with 380 grains of arrow. Leaning toward grave digger just worried bout ke.


----------



## c-ray

Holy crap I just read this whole thread!! I am a reaper fan 1 3/8's I have shot them for years with grate results, the only lost animal I had with them was shoot placement on my part. then last year went with a rage 2 blade for sh**ts and giggles, shot a nice buck at 35yrds and blew threw it with a hatchet size hole. My only complaint and the reason I will go back to Grim Reaper's this year is I cant stand a o ring of any kind. The problem I kept having is the blades kept deploying on the slightest bump from a twig or any bounce of my arrow. That was enough to leave a bad taste in my mouth. Anyway I love the thread and all the info from it. From northeast Indiana thanks!!!!!


----------



## Speed 1B

This test got my wheels turning and got me excited to wreck some broadheads myself. So today me and a couple buddies gathered up every broadhead we could find laying around as well as the 3 heads that we were most interested in trying for this season- The ViperTrick, the Ulmer Edge, and the Ram Cat. I will admit that i am a pretty big SlickTrick guy but the results of the test today will have me trying somthing different this year.

The objective of our test was simply to wreck, break, and smash these heads. We shot the heads into 3/4" high density fiberboard from 10 yds with a 65lb Carbon Element RKT @ 28.5" with a Easton Axis 340 arrow. It turned out that the 3/4" board was probably too thick for the test...None of the heads really did that great on such dense board, but the Ulmer Edge did pretty well. We decided to go to a 1/2" piece of high density fiberboard for another test so we pulled the Ulmer Edge, the ViperTrick, and the Ram Cat all out of the board and shot them again...they were all in perfect condition after i got them dug out. For the second part of the test we used my friends Vector 32 with similar draw weight but a 29" draw with a full metal jacket arrow. All 3 heads did pretty well on the 1/2" and passed thru but the ulmer edge was amazing. It passed thru and then lodged in a fence behind the target and also cut a full 1.5" slice in the fence. The head bent the tabs on the blades, but that just means the blades "failed open" which is exactly what you want. I spun tested the ferrel after the test and it is still straight and the tip is still sharp. This is a amazing head. I never have even considered using a mechanical head up until now seeing the ulmer edge here and then doing our own test. The viper trick and ramcat did a great job too and i would definately use them without a single doubt but the Ulmer is a whole nother amimal. We are impressed.

I filmed this entire test and i may edit it and put it on youtube...not sure yet. I mainly just did the test for myself and my friends so if i get it up loaded i do and if i dont i dont. Oh...BTW we also shot a field point in this test and it was by far the best penetrating head we shot. It blew thru the board like butter...just goes to show you how much the blades are slowing your head down and stopping penetration...so im not surprised by seths result with his field point.

Thanks seth for the hard work and pushing me to try some new heads and have a little fun with it.


----------



## lung smasher

c-ray said:


> Holy crap I just read this whole thread!! I am a reaper fan 1 3/8's I have shot them for years with grate results, the only lost animal I had with them was shoot placement on my part. then last year went with a rage 2 blade for sh**ts and giggles, shot a nice buck at 35yrds and blew threw it with a hatchet size hole. My only complaint and the reason I will go back to Grim Reaper's this year is I cant stand a o ring of any kind. The problem I kept having is the blades kept deploying on the slightest bump from a twig or any bounce of my arrow. That was enough to leave a bad taste in my mouth. Anyway I love the thread and all the info from it. From northeast Indiana thanks!!!!!


I love my reapers just wanted to try something different. So far tried g5 t3 and didn't like them cuz wasn't that durable. Tried slick trick they where ok. I am really interested in trying a grave digger or the ulmer broad head.


----------



## 206Moose

That ulmer edge must be onto something. It impressed an old fixed blade user like myself. Seth you have any observations as to why it is penetrating so well. I know it was a 125 at 40 yards and the extra weight helped some but still that is impressive.


----------



## lung smasher

Speed 1B said:


> This test got my wheels turning and got me excited to wreck some broadheads myself. So today me and a couple buddies gathered up every broadhead we could find laying around as well as the 3 heads that we were most interested in trying for this season- The ViperTrick, the Ulmer Edge, and the Ram Cat. I will admit that i am a pretty big SlickTrick guy but the results of the test today will have me trying somthing different this year.
> 
> The objective of our test was simply to wreck, break, and smash these heads. We shot the heads into 3/4" high density fiberboard from 10 yds with a 65lb Carbon Element RKT @ 28.5" with a Easton Axis 340 arrow. It turned out that the 3/4" board was probably too thick for the test...None of the heads really did that great on such dense board, but the Ulmer Edge did pretty well. We decided to go to a 1/2" piece of high density fiberboard for another test so we pulled the Ulmer Edge, the ViperTrick, and the Ram Cat all out of the board and shot them again...they were all in perfect condition after i got them dug out. For the second part of the test we used my friends Vector 32 with similar draw weight but a 29" draw with a full metal jacket arrow. All 3 heads did pretty well on the 1/2" and passed thru but the ulmer edge was amazing. It passed thru and then lodged in a fence behind the target and also cut a full 1.5" slice in the fence. The head bent the tabs on the blades, but that just means the blades "failed open" which is exactly what you want. I spun tested the ferrel after the test and it is still straight and the tip is still sharp. This is a amazing head. I never have even considered using a mechanical head up until now seeing the ulmer edge here and then doing our own test. The viper trick and ramcat did a great job too and i would definately use them without a single doubt but the Ulmer is a whole nother amimal. We are impressed.
> 
> I filmed this entire test and i may edit it and put it on youtube...not sure yet. I mainly just did the test for myself and my friends so if i get it up loaded i do and if i dont i dont. Oh...BTW we also shot a field point in this test and it was by far the best penetrating head we shot. It blew thru the board like butter...just goes to show you how much the blades are slowing your head down and stopping penetration...so im not surprised by seths result with his field point.
> 
> Thanks seth for the hard work and pushing me to try some new heads and have a little fun with it.


Sounds like a fun test to me lol. I'm interested in the homer edge but have been always sceptical to a 2 blade head.


----------



## lung smasher

lung smasher said:


> Sounds like a fun test to me lol. I'm interested in the homer edge but have been always sceptical to a 2 blade head.


Ulmer edge. Stupid smart phone.


----------



## sethro02

First... Sorry I forgot to put cut surface on the heads..havent tested for awhile so I forgot.

Awesome to here about your test!


Their are 2 ulmers..im more surprised on 125 because the ferrule and injexion are the same size. I have a pic I need to upload it may be confusing but it shows what kind of hole it punches..it also shows the pivoting blades in action...its actually taking the least resisting path


----------



## sethro02

The way the blades open I feel it is just easier...they dont travel far to open


----------



## 206Moose

Do you think the pivoting action helps?

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2


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## sethro02

heck yea it helps! its very loose how it pivots unlike the Reign broadhead that suppose to pivot it's stiff, the ulmer blades are loose and hanging by the bolt if that makes any sense? it takes zero effort to push one blade into the ferrule


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## sethro02

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NdzfXaVN8nU THIS IS THE SHOT

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cW4dsGEDbXM THIS IS THE IMPACT, SORRY I FORGOT TO ADD IT TO ORIGINAL VIDEO


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## sethro02

These were the ulmer 40yd videos above^^^


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## TimmyZ7

Good stuff Seth! Looking forward to more.


----------



## KMD

Seth, I apologize for getting your thread off track.
So, in the spirit of getting back to testing, I have an idea.

If I were to send you a few 3 packs of different brand broadheads, would you shoot all three of each to note shot to shot consistency of their performance? 
I'd like to send one 3 pk. of standards, one 3pk. of COCs and one 3 pk. of mechanicals of my choice. To be fair and impartial, all three will be broadheads I've never personally used on game. I think it would be very interesting to note any variance between penetration, cut & sustained damage with a larger sample size. 

If that's cool, I'll PM you for your addy.
Thanks...


----------



## lung smasher

Wow that head really impresses me. Starting to kinda lean toward it. Still torn between it and the grave digger


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## sethro02

Yea tough choice there but remember gravedigger is coming out with trocar tip version so your choice just got harder...

Kmd...im open to that..i dont know when I can get to it but ill do it as soon as I can


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## 206Moose

correct me if I'm wrong but did I understand the ulmer video on thier website say the blades are single bevel which will cause them to spiral inside the body cavity? If so how does that happen?


----------



## lung smasher

sethro02 said:


> Yea tough choice there but remember gravedigger is coming out with trocar tip version so your choice just got harder...
> 
> Kmd...im open to that..i dont know when I can get to it but ill do it as soon as I can




Ah buddy now that just made it worse. You think the grave digger would do ok with my setup. 380 grain arrow with broadhead 62 lbs out of maxxis 35.


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## sethro02

You will be fine..dale's daughter shoots 40lbs and has no problem...remember those expander blades are pointy and not blunt so it takes hardly nothing to get it in the body cavity


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## sethro02

I havent seen that ulmer video but yes a single bevel head is suppose to act like a screw with a sharp pitch on it...all I know is that it penetrates!


----------



## Grizz1219

Wow... just wow... Ulmer is definitely on my "Need to have" list for a BH.... That is one well made head...


----------



## eltaco

I ran a quick soundclip at 40yds yesterday. I only have 40yds in my yard to test, but I'll try get similar clips at longer distances as well. The first arrow is a fieldpoint and the second is a Muzzy 3-blade. Maybe I can talk Seth into doing a test with the Silverflame I sent in, as that head was surprisingly loud and I think will make the point better.

At any rate, at 40yds I can barely detect the bow going off, but you can hear the arrow through the entire flight. IMO, that continuous hiss, whigh builds in intensity is more alarming, but you can listen for yourselves. I to believe at longer distances the microphone won't even detect the bow, but I'll try to get a clip of it.

http://soundcloud.com/eltaco/sound-test-at-40


----------



## sethro02

Interesting eltaco...i think when I do it ill have mic about 10 to 15 yds in front of target


----------



## eltaco

sethro02 said:


> Interesting eltaco...i think when I do it ill have mic about 10 to 15 yds in front of target


Yes, I completely agree. The sound of it hitting the target is overwhelming. Unfortunately, with only having 40yds at my disposal, I figured setting the microphone at 25-30yds from the bow wouldn't do much for showing what I'm trying to describe.

I have to say, I'm not all that surprised about the Ulmer at 40yds test. I'd like to see some other heads tested at that distance. I don't have the numbers in front of me but I did run chrony tests at point blank, 10, 20, 30, and 40yds and the speed loss was a lot lower than I would have anticipated. Just a shot in the dark, but I'd guess the momentum gain from the 25gr extra all but made up the momentum loss at 40yds. Still a great test, and not trying to take anything at ALL from the Ulmer, but I suspect you'll see similar results with the other heads, especially if you add 25gr to each.


----------



## 206Moose

sethro02 said:


> I havent seen that ulmer video but yes a single bevel head is suppose to act like a screw with a sharp pitch on it...all I know is that it penetrates!


Did you see that in the gel? It's still the only head to get a complete pass through corrrect?


----------



## 206Moose

sethro02 said:


> Interesting eltaco...i think when I do it ill have mic about 10 to 15 yds in front of target


If you could shoot into something that didn't make any noise when the arrow hit would probably help. Maybe? Might make it easier to measure just arrow noise and not arrow hitting target noise.


----------



## eltaco

NTYMADATER said:


> If you could shoot into something that didn't make any noise when the arrow hit would probably help. Maybe? Might make it easier to measure just arrow noise and not arrow hitting target noise.


I'll likely just shoot at 40-100yds and move the microphone 20yds ahead of the target. Should paint a pretty good picture.


----------



## sethro02

Through the gel all the broadheads spun through gel..kinda hard to tell if one spun faster or slower though


----------



## sethro02

The new ulmer videos are in my sig so they dont get buried


----------



## brokenlittleman

sethro02 said:


> ulmer proto gel 40 yards
> View attachment 1434765


Whats that cut right by your thumb?


----------



## sethro02

that was from a broadhead tested earlier in the week...i saved this gel just to do these unofficial test....the ulmer did not go through that wound channel at all...i was aiming for the open space where i hit


----------



## Fortyneck

0nepin said:


> Yea you and fortyredneck and seiowabowinbread and oldcootowl should start a club and name it sand in da panties *because my broadhead is not as good as I thought it was*.And let not forget your president NTYnothinigisaymatters.


I never said anything about what brand of BH was best, it is just a choice, nor did I ever question anything about the test or results other than how the cut was measured,

but thats just basic geometry, understanding that 2" is 2" regardless of whether it is __ or + . You like __ better, fine. 

I can handle the name calling, but don't accuse me of saying things I didn't say on this thread.

I also posted a pic responding to what you said. 


0nepin said:


> Check out the pic's.slicktrick are good head the but they will not bleed out a deer as fast as a rage digger.


Along with all the harping on about small holes.

And the pic speaks for itself, showing the contrary...

So, accept my apology if I insulted you, but I would like to keep the discussion about BH's and results.


----------



## Ned250

Spreadsheet updated based on last night's results - https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AgJEvQwzfDRZdGxzdC15R0JIZDJGQ1J4bVpGV1pTWHc

Ulmer Edge 125 - WHOA!!!


----------



## DesignedToHunt

If memory serves, the 125 grain Ulmer is the same exact head as the 100 only the tip is heavier. I'm about 99% sure that's what a rep at TT told me at least. Regardless, adding the 25 grains to the very tip of the head would account for the added penetration in my opinion.


----------



## sethro02

That ulmer 125 is smaller...the diameter is exactly the same as an injexion...this is 125 steel deep six ulmer...you may have seen a standard size aluminum ferrule


----------



## sethro02

That arrow and head didnt weigh much more than my axis and otger heads that were tested..they are basically equal so the weight didnt have much to do with it


----------



## sethro02

Injexion with ulmer 439 grains

Axis with other 100grain heads...440 grains


----------



## sethro02

Injexion arrow was shorter because I told rusty if he sends it then try to get same weight as my current ones


----------



## 5 Rivers

sethro02 said:


> Injexion with ulmer 439 grains
> 
> Axis with other 100grain heads...440 grains


FOC and even smaller diameter.


----------



## sethro02

foc is good for long range accuracy...the smaller diameter contributes more then anything


----------



## eltaco

sethro02 said:


> foc is good for long range accuracy...the smaller diameter contributes more then anything


Both would contribute to penetration. Run the same head and arrow at your standard test difference. I'd be curious to see the difference.

Awesome test, regardless, but would be neat to see the comparison!


----------



## sethro02

i agree foc helps in penetration because the front of the shaft is more stable upon impact, but in this case i'm predicting the foc of my axis and injexion are really close,,,,measuring now


----------



## sethro02

i mis spoke i forgot we were talking about an ulmer with 125 grain head....also my axis arrow is longer then the injexion so i dont know if that would be a fair comparison...also the 125 deep six ulmer is way shorter than the 100 grain ulmer...still measuring


----------



## sethro02

7.18% foc with axis 340 spine with standard 100 grain ulmer edge
10.7% foc with injexion carbon/alloy 330 spine with 125 grain deep six ulmer edge


----------



## sethro02

when i made my prediction sorry i wasnt thinking the other head was 125 grain , my bad


----------



## RustyUlmer

Just to clear some things up and answer some questions, there is only one Ulmer Edge design on the market at this time, the 100 gr aluminum ferrule with a stainless steel tip. Very soon we will have a 125 gr aluminum ferrule with a stainless steel tip. this is the exact same ferrule as the 100 gr version, we just used a heavier stainless steel tip for the 125 gr version. Seth has not tested this 125 gr version, it should perform the same as the 100 gr version with possibly improved penetration due to the increased weight. The 125 gr head that I sent to Seth is an all stainless steel ferrule designed to fit the Easton Injextion Deep Six insert system. It is the same diameter as the micro diameter Injextion shafts to improve penetration and flight dynamics. This head will be available late this winter. We will also be making this head to fit a conventional insert system. Other head designs are in the works. I know, I know, all you whitetail hunters who like to cut your deer in half with your broadheads want a 2 inch cut. I'm working on it. You will love it. Again, its gonna be here next year. 
I hope this helps to clear things up.


Regarding the exceptional penetration of the Edge, this is due to the rear deployment design and pivotal action of the blades. If one blade meets more resistance than the other this blade will fold back into the ferrule forcing the other blade further out. Also, improved penetration characteristics is one of the reasons I designed the original with a 1.5" cut.


----------



## TimmyZ7

RustyUlmer said:


> Just to clear some things up and answer some questions, there is only one Ulmer Edge design on the market at this time, the 100 gr aluminum ferrule with a stainless steel tip. Very soon we will have a 125 gr aluminum ferrule with a stainless steel tip. this is the exact same ferrule as the 100 gr version, we just used a heavier stainless steel tip for the 125 gr version. Seth has not tested this 125 gr version, it should perform the same as the 100 gr version with possibly improved penetration due to the increased weight. The 125 gr head that I sent to Seth is an all stainless steel ferrule designed to fit the Easton Injextion Deep Six insert system. It is the same diameter as the micro diameter Injextion shafts to improve penetration and flight dynamics. This head will be available late this winter. We will also be making this head to fit a conventional insert system. Other head designs are in the works. *I know, I know, all you whitetail hunters who like to cut your deer in half with your broadheads want a 2 inch cut. I'm working on it. You will love it. Again, its gonna be here next year. *
> 
> I hope this helps to clear things up.
> 
> Regarding the exceptional penetration of the Edge, this is due to the rear deployment design and pivotal action of the blades. If one blade meets more resistance than the other this blade will fold back into the ferrule forcing the other blade further out. Also, improved penetration characteristics is one of the reasons I designed the original with a 1.5" cut.


I will definitely buy the 2" cut and feel I have the k.e. for it to penetrate just as well as the 1.5". That is the only reason I have not bought them yet. I am definitely excited over this. It will be a heads up test between the Ulmer 2 and the G5 Havoc!!!! Place your bets!


----------



## sethro02

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NdzfXaVN8nU

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cW4dsGEDbXM

ulmer deep six video's....second one is impact shot


----------



## sethro02

Mail call!!!!!!
Hunor africa. Magor. Neo
Razortrick


----------



## Michael Myers

sethro02 said:


> Mail call!!!!!!
> Hunor africa. Magor. Neo
> Razortrick


:rockhard: Test tonight?Man,I have had all my Family here from all over Canada for my Causins Wedding and thought today was Thursday...I aint leavin till tommorow night to go away.Great Work Seth,I am impressed with the Randy Ulmer Broadheads....Grizz


----------



## sethro02

No test tonight..making gel


----------



## sethro02

These hunor heads look crazy!


----------



## Michael Myers

sethro02 said:


> No test tonight..making gel


Cool,How much Plywood have you went through?Lol.I would think,12-15 Sheets?Grizz


----------



## Guest

Very impressed with the ulmer, I have been shooting fixed for a long time but i am giving these a try this year. Thanks seth


----------



## Michael Myers

trick's only said:


> Very impressed with the ulmer, I have been shooting fixed for a long time but i am giving these a try this year. Thanks seth


Have to change your name to Ulmer Tricks Sometimes..Lol


----------



## sethro02

glad this test is helping you guys and gals....i have went through 2 full 4x8 sheets of plywood and 14 or 15 arrows....i wish i had a shop near by so i could by 2 arrows to get me through these final tests


----------



## sethro02

is anybody having issues viewing the ulmer videos?


----------



## Guest

GrizzlyMan1980 said:


> Have to cahnge your name to Ulmer Tricks Sometimes..Lol


Yes, I sure will, I will say that I will always love the tricks thay are a very good head. I am just ready to try a mech and I think the Ulmer is the wat to go.


----------



## Michael Myers

sethro02 said:


> glad this test is helping you guys and gals....i have went through 2 full 4x8 sheets of plywood and 14 or 15 arrows....i wish i had a shop near by so i could by 2 arrows to get me through these final tests


Wow,A Dozen Eastons up here are over 200.00,Your a better man then me to spend that coin for testing...I Figured more Plywood,We get Screwed on Equipment up here for hunting.Grizz


----------



## Guest

By the way how do you change your name on here


----------



## Michael Myers

trick's only said:


> By the way how do you change your name on here


Lol...You cant...,Need to start a new account...Stupid eh..Grizz


----------



## sethro02

i dont think you can change your name.......yes its expensive thats why im trying to wrap it up and move on with other testing, it was very helpful though, no regrets


----------



## sethro02

ok bought 3 packs of gravediggers, got them in, shot at 50 yards for the first time with them...3 for 3 bullseye. shaved vanes on the group...


----------



## sethro02

gravedigger zero flight noise as well....


----------



## k&j8

sethro02 said:


> Yea tough choice there but remember *gravedigger is coming out with trocar tip version *so your choice just got harder...


Any idea when these will be available?


----------



## 1Lee

GrizzlyMan1980 said:


> Lol...You cant...,Need to start a new account...Stupid eh..Grizz


Stupid, now that wasn't nice but i do like the Ulmer heads


----------



## sethro02

possibly look for them introduced at next ata show...dale may chime in on this


----------



## Michael Myers

1Lee said:


> Stupid, now that wasn't nice but i do like the Ulmer heads


Lol,No not you being Stupid but not being able to change ur name.Nice Choice...Grizz


----------



## nolimitarchery

k&j8 said:


> Any idea when these will be available?


Ok, this is the skinny on the Chisel tip version. I have been working on getting the 125 gr COC out by Sept 1. I will be working on the Chisel tip after that head is ready. 

I have been testing the Chisel tip version that I have and as far as I have tested there is no real difference in the bone breaking ability and the penetration of the COC and Chisel tip. I know it is a personal preference and I totally respect that. The only reason I am trying to build the Chisel tip now and not next year is because I have had alot of request from the members of AT and you have supported me and the Grave Digger, so I feel if I can get it done I will. 

At this point I would say Hopefully the Chisel tip will be ready mid Oct.

Thank you
Dale


----------



## k&j8

nolimitarchery said:


> Ok, this is the skinny on the Chisel tip version. I have been working on getting the 125 gr COC out by Sept 1. I will be working on the Chisel tip after that head is ready.
> 
> I have been testing the Chisel tip version that I have and as far as I have tested there is no real difference in the bone breaking ability and the penetration of the COC and Chisel tip. I know it is a personal preference and I totally respect that. The only reason I am trying to build the Chisel tip now and not next year is because I have had alot of request from the members of AT and you have supported me and the Grave Digger, so I feel if I can get it done I will.
> 
> At this point I would say Hopefully the Chisel tip will be ready mid Oct.
> 
> Thank you
> Dale


Thanks for the update.  I have always liked chisel tips but may go ahead and give the COC version a try. I have never been a mechanical head guy either but I am very impressed with the Gravedigger and the Ulmer Edge and will be trying both out this fall as well as the Shuttle T's. 

Between Virginia and Ohio I hope the deer cooperate and allow me to try all of these heads out this year!! Seth is making me broadhead poor!!:wink:


----------



## sethro02

haha i've made myself broadhead poor as well...i just hope i have enough money left over to hunt other states!


----------



## 206Moose

sethro02 said:


> Mail call!!!!!!
> Hunor africa. Magor. Neo
> Razortrick


Don't worry about sending the razortrick back. Sell it or use it for a noise test. I'm going to predict a 32 hope it holds up lol. 

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2


----------



## sethro02

haha ok. thanks for donation


----------



## 0nepin

NTYMADATER said:


> Don't worry about sending the razortrick back. Sell it or use it for a noise test. I'm going to predict a 32 hope it holds up lol.
> 
> Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2


32 sounds about right.


----------



## weekender7

nolimitarchery said:


> Ok, this is the skinny on the Chisel tip version. I have been working on getting the 125 gr COC out by Sept 1. I will be working on the Chisel tip after that head is ready.
> 
> I have been testing the Chisel tip version that I have and as far as I have tested there is no real difference in the bone breaking ability and the penetration of the COC and Chisel tip. I know it is a personal preference and I totally respect that. The only reason I am trying to build the Chisel tip now and not next year is because I have had alot of request from the members of AT and you have supported me and the Grave Digger, so I feel if I can get it done I will.
> 
> At this point I would say Hopefully the Chisel tip will be ready mid Oct.
> 
> Thank you
> Dale


How can you beat that for customer service? I really like these heads and have plans to try them on multiple species this year. So far, 2 for 2 on hogs. Lord willing, more hogs will feel the Gravediggers, well, just for a few seconds I guess. I consider hogs to be the best test of all NA game.


----------



## sethro02

Weekender7 please keep me updated on your hog massacre


----------



## nolimitarchery

Weekendr7

Thank you for the kind words. I want to add your hog pictures to our trophy room if that is ok with you. 

Thanks
Dale


----------



## nolimitarchery

To everyone that is shooting the Grave Digger this year thank you.

I will ask you to go to the website and there is a link to upload your pictures and story please click on it and tell us what you think. If you have video please PM me or you can let me know through the website, I would love to have it. 

Thanks again
Dale


----------



## UTGrad

Hey Onepin...

Hope your shoulder holds up shooting such crazy numbers lol!

1) Shoot crazy draw weights to push 15" mechanicals through deer and destroy your shoulder forever
2) Shoot "normal" draw weights and shoot "normal" expandable or fixed heads.

Have fun tearing up that shoulder that will cost you later.


----------



## chaded

trick's only said:


> By the way how do you change your name on here


I don't think you can change your name. Looks like your stuck using Slick Tricks forever.


----------



## 0nepin

85lb feels normal to me, been doing it for a long time.you just have to be smart about it ,don't go out an shoot a 100 arrow in one afternoon and you will be fine . I know a small girl that on here that shoot her vendetta at 70lb and does it very easy.there no need to limit your self to such a low draw weight.To each there own shoot what feel right.I was shooting montech and slicktrick at the same draw weight and still shoot hellrazors.=UTGrad;1064824671]Hey Onepin...

Hope your shoulder holds up shooting such crazy numbers lol!

1) Shoot crazy draw weights to push 15" mechanicals through deer and destroy your shoulder forever
2) Shoot "normal" draw weights and shoot "normal" expandable or fixed heads.

Have fun tearing up that shoulder that will cost you later.[/QUOTE]


----------



## TimmyZ7

Why can't one man simply be stronger then another. It's the facts of life people. I don't think whack&stack or Onepin are struggling to pull the weight. I do think they are bigger and stronger then a lot of people just as a lot of people out there are bigger and stronger then them. I mean are we communists now that everyone has to shoot the same dw and broadhead or your guilty of treason. 

How can one argue that shooting a heavier arrow at faster speeds with greater momentum isn't more ethical then a guy who shoots a rage broadhead on a McDonald's straw with 40k.e. The best part about this thread is the civil discussions that are informative. The worst part of it is all the Napoleons on here trying to squeeze a inch in for their draw weight, broadhead, brand and whatever else they felt the need to go to war for. How about we talk about experience with these broadheads in the field and how it relates to the test results instead of hiding all of Sethro's posts under the child's play.


----------



## bowhuntermitch

Scheel's has a sale on broadheads right now.. Ulmers are $34.99!


----------



## UTGrad

TimmyZ7 said:


> Why can't one man simply be stronger then another. It's the facts of life people. I don't think whack&stack or Onepin are struggling to pull the weight. I do think they are bigger and stronger then a lot of people just as a lot of people out there are bigger and stronger then them. I mean are we communists now that everyone has to shoot the same dw and broadhead or your guilty of treason.
> 
> How can one argue that shooting a heavier arrow at faster speeds with greater momentum isn't more ethical then a guy who shoots a rage broadhead on a McDonald's straw with 40k.e. The best part about this thread is the civil discussions that are informative. The worst part of it is all the Napoleons on here trying to squeeze a inch in for their draw weight, broadhead, brand and whatever else they felt the need to go to war for. How about we talk about experience with these broadheads in the field and how it relates to the test results instead of hiding all of Sethro's posts under the child's play.


Because ligaments and joints are rather static regardless of muscle strength. I draw 68 lbs and can shoot 25-30 arrow sessions. If I drop down to 60 lbs I can shooot spot match of 12 rounds. 85 lbs of draw will cause tears in the shoulder regardless of muscle. I could draw an 85 lb bow but why? Its like shooting a Nitro Express. It will kill a deer but it is over kill and definitely not a gun one can truly practice.

Enjoy the 85 lbs, cause when you are older or when you decide to actually practice you will think otherwise (could be wrong).

I guess I'm disgusted how Oldhootowl has been treated considering his product, the Slick Trick, is a great broadhead. Some wild cat will be macho and shoot a 3" cut broadhead that requires 100 lbs KE TO WORK (IF IT DOESN'T FAIL) and act like he (or she) is some bad ***

Honestly why is this thread not a sticky by now puzzles me.


----------



## UTGrad

TimmyZ7 said:


> Why can't one man simply be stronger then another. It's the facts of life people. I don't think whack&stack or Onepin are struggling to pull the weight. I do think they are bigger and stronger then a lot of people just as a lot of people out there are bigger and stronger then them. I mean are we communists now that everyone has to shoot the same dw and broadhead or your guilty of treason.
> 
> How can one argue that shooting a heavier arrow at faster speeds with greater momentum isn't more ethical then a guy who shoots a rage broadhead on a McDonald's straw with 40k.e. The best part about this thread is the civil discussions that are informative. The worst part of it is all the Napoleons on here trying to squeeze a inch in for their draw weight, broadhead, brand and whatever else they felt the need to go to war for. How about we talk about experience with these broadheads in the field and how it relates to the test results instead of hiding all of Sethro's posts under the child's play.


It's the attitude. If someone can draw a 100 lb and be a gentleman that's cool. This whole "I'm a bad *** and all others are weak" attitude is so high school.


----------



## Gamikatsu

For the record.... this thread has some amazing data. And some amazing whining... its like grown men cant agree to disagree... opinions are like a-holes.. everyone has one and they all stink... including mine. Thanks for the testing seth. If everyone could pull there heads out and act like men this thread would be a lot cleaner. The Google docs is awesome!!! Please keep up the good work.

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2


----------



## UTGrad

It's amazing how many sheep are going to make their broadhead choice this season cause of this test. I applaud those who have found a head the works IN THE FIELD.


----------



## weekender7

UT, I'm no sheep, but this test did lead me to a BH that I did not realize was on the market. It did preform very well in the field. Thanks again Seth for all the time, effort and money and most of all sharing results of what I consider to be some pretty realistic comparable data with us. UT, even if we shot animals with every shot they would not be consistant enough to compare apples to apples. Just IMO.


----------



## jumpalot

UTGrad said:


> It's amazing how many sheep are going to make their broadhead choice this season cause of this test. I applaud those who have found a head the works IN THE FIELD.


So I guess I'm confused. Are you saying that there is no value to this test? How are we supposed to find a head that works IN THE FIELD? Are we just supposed to grab a pack of heads off a shelf because they look good and then go shoot something with them and if they don't work buy something else and try them. Or do we all just buy REAPERS because you say they are the best head on the market? I appreciate that you've had a lot of success with the Reapers. I've had a ton of success with the Rocket Steelheads. They didn't fair too well in this test. But I'm not coming on here and bashing this test and starting another thread to try and discredit this test. I've been following this test as well as the one that Whitey375 along with many others and watching tons of tests on YouTube. Then I will make what I feel is a pretty informed decision on what I will shoot this year. I might even stick with the Steelheads, they've never failed me so far. Also, after training athletes for the past 28 years, I believe your comment about tendons and ligaments is a little off. They can become stronger along with muscles with proper training. They can also be easily be injured if you train improperly. Seth, sorry for contributing along with others to sidetrack this thread. One last thing, UTGrad I would be very interested in following a test conducted by you testing the Reapers along with other broadheads. Just more info to help me make a decision for this season.


----------



## UTGrad

jumpalot said:


> So I guess I'm confused. Are you saying that there is no value to this test? How are we supposed to find a head that works IN THE FIELD? Are we just supposed to grab a pack of heads off a shelf because they look good and then go shoot something with them and if they don't work buy something else and try them. Or do we all just buy REAPERS because you say they are the best head on the market? I appreciate that you've had a lot of success with the Reapers. I've had a ton of success with the Rocket Steelheads. They didn't fair too well in this test. But I'm not coming on here and bashing this test and starting another thread to try and discredit this test. I've been following this test as well as the one that Whitey375 along with many others and watching tons of tests on YouTube. Then I will make what I feel is a pretty informed decision on what I will shoot this year. I might even stick with the Steelheads, they've never failed me so far. Also, after training athletes for the past 28 years, I believe your comment about tendons and ligaments is a little off. They can become stronger along with muscles with proper training. They can also be easily be injured if you train improperly. Seth, sorry for contributing along with others to sidetrack this thread. One last thing, UTGrad I would be very interested in following a test conducted by you testing the Reapers along with other broadheads. Just more info to help me make a decision for this season.


Good post and I appreciate your writing skills but let me share this. Historically people used broadheads that were proven in the field. Fellow hunters would come on AT and post pics and share success stories. Eventually enough data and kill pics on live game would help a hunter on AT make a decision. Now we have a new modem. A person with time on their hands blast broadheads through plywood into a gel block and post some numbers and you have what I call "sheep". This crowd is flocking to a test that does not represent live game.

Hey, if Seth wants to spend his time with this test I applaud him. Personally I'm not nor will ever perform a test to this magnitude. I would rather spend time with my family and use a broadhead that has worked for 12 years.


----------



## weekender7

"This crowd is flocking to a test that does not represent live game."
true, what it does represent is a fairly consistant similar medium to live game so that we can compare how the heads penetrate and hold up under stress. I wish I had seen a test like this back in the early 70's before I put a Satelite BH with .015 blades into the largest buck I had ever seen at the time. Something else would have been on the end of my arrow.


----------



## Smoknnca

sethro02 said:


> glad this test is helping you guys and gals....i have went through 2 full 4x8 sheets of plywood and 14 or 15 arrows....i wish i had a shop near by so i could by 2 arrows to get me through these final tests


Will a few VAPs help you??


----------



## sethro02

Utgrad if you dont like the thread stay out! I read some of your started posts and ill say you are in no situation to give advice on equipment. Everything thing you have said on here has been worthless....please go to other threads on here and vote for your favorite broadhead..im pretty sure you work for grim reaper


----------



## sethro02

I could possibly use some vap's for a couple tests I have in mind..ill get back to you..thx


----------



## sethro02

Also I agre with in the field testing but tests like this take out some doubt for people on the head they want to use


----------



## Porkrind

Hey guys, it's DR. UTgrad! Oh yeah I appreciate his advice on draw weights seing as how that has no truth at all. If someone is going to tear their shoulder out it's not going to just be the ligiments that determine when it blows it will be the supporting muscles around the joints at least thats what I think but again i'm no Dr. I don't see many guys at the gym blowing shoulders out because they are pulling to much weight on the row machine.


----------



## Michael Myers

Porkrind said:


> Hey guys, it's DR. UTgrad! Oh yeah I appreciate his advice on draw weights seing as how that has no truth at all. If someone is going to tear their shoulder out it's not going to just be the ligiments that determine when it blows it will be the supporting muscles around the joints at least thats what I think but again i'm no Dr. I don't see many guys at the gym blowing shoulders out because they are pulling to much weight on the row machine.


Doogie Howser M.d knows his Stuff when it comes to Pulling things...:wink:


----------



## seiowabow

Thanks for the testing Seth, while I don't agree with everyone. I do think you did a great job. I even bought some shuttle t's and maybe, just maybe I might try some Ulmers.

Sent from my DROID4 using Tapatalk 2


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## sethro02

glad to here seiowabow.....you sound like a fixed head guy so how about trying the gravediggers if you on the fence about mechanicals?


----------



## TNKnoxville

Grizzlyman1980 that was a good one!!!!! 

Seth keep up the good work. Been following since the start. I'm an engineer and understand testing. As you stated this was not meant to be the "ultimate" broadhead test. It has been an awesome test and has produced a ton of comparable information. If you don't like the results or they don't agree with what you have seen in the field, great. Don't critisize the tester because the results don't fit into your box. If you think you could do better do your own test. Seth don't worry no matter how you test someone will complain, happens to me all the time.


----------



## sethro02

thanks man.


these hunor heads will be tested in next round...i think they will do pretty well...super short ferrule!


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## seiowabow

Yeah i might try a gravedigger. They look pretty wicked

Sent from my DROID4 using Tapatalk 2


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## lung smasher

I have come to the conclusion if the gravediggers had trocar tips i would order them yesterday.


----------



## lung smasher

Might order me some anyways lol. The ulmers are still tempting me though. Lol may just have to get both heads.


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## sethro02

Get em! You wont be dissapointed either way...i super glued a few gravediggers shut so I could shoot them more because they do damage to your target..ive shot them a bunch though


----------



## Porkrind

Oh wow, I really truly did laugh out loud on that and now my co-worker is staring at me. 


GrizzlyMan1980 said:


> Doogie Howser M.d knows his Stuff when it comes to Pulling things...:wink:


----------



## Michael Myers

Porkrind said:


> Oh wow, I really truly did laugh out loud on that and now my co-worker is staring at me.


Well i am here until 5 tonight,Please Tip your waitress and try the Corned Beef...Grizz


----------



## corey006

Seth, you have done a GREAT job here....epic thread!


*UTgrad, the only thing epic about you is the growing list of members that have you on IGNORE!.....*


I am going to make you a customized soother with a Grim Reaper handle.....so you can stick that in your mouth instead of your thumb....do you have Grim Reaper pajamas as well??


----------



## c-ray

I think this test gives everyone a lot of knowledge about the different types of broadheads that are available to us. Like I said before I shoot reapers and prob, will still this year. They have worked great for me in the past so why change something if it is not broken. Im not bashing any other broadhead at all. I think you should shoot what you want and it is not up to anyone on here to tell you different. There are to many people on here bashing a broadhead when one test bad, in the beginning of this test everyone was bashing the rage before the reaper was tested now everyone is bashing the reaper. I have shot both of these heads and they have done the job wonderfully. I will shoot reapers again just because I dont like O rings at all. I also have seen entry or exit holes that are in the 2" length allow for internals to slip out or plug up the hole and not allow for any blood to exit the wound. this is a fact I have seen it more than once with large cutting blades. Luckily the animal fell or came back into view to be found otherwise it would have been lost. In my (and this is just my opinion) you dont need to cut your deer in half to make a quick and clean kill. But like I said before this test is one of the best I have seen and I thank you for the time and money you have spent to do this test for the last couple months. And for all the info on hear. From Northeast IN...


----------



## Michael Myers

corey006 said:


> Seth, you have done a GREAT job here....epic thread!
> 
> 
> *UTgrad, the only thing epic about you is the growing list of members that have you on IGNORE!.....*
> 
> 
> I am going to make you a customized soother with a Grim Reaper handle.....so you can stick that in your mouth instead of your thumb....do you have Grim Reaper pajamas as well??


You could patent it and call it a Seaper.Grizz


----------



## Kstigall

UTGrad said:


> Good post and I appreciate your writing skills but let me share this. Historically people used broadheads that were proven in the field. Fellow hunters would come on AT and post pics and share success stories.* Eventually enough data and kill pics on live game would help a hunter on AT* make a decision. Now we have a new modem. A person with time on their hands blast broadheads through plywood into a gel block and post some numbers and you have what I call "sheep". This crowd is flocking to a test that does not represent live game.
> 
> Hey, if Seth wants to spend his time with this test I applaud him. Personally I'm not nor will ever perform a test to this magnitude. I would rather spend time with my family and use a broadhead that has worked for 12 years.


What you are suggesting is to not use your noodle to decide on a broadhead. Are you serious? You suggest we all have to try a plethora of broadheads knowing full well some are very likely not appropriate. Total hogwash. You don't have to be particularly bright or highly educated in a formal setting to realize "testing" using non-live game makes perfect sense. Nationwide just how many animals would have to be lost or injured before we collectively decide a head was of marginal quality or there was a better choice? Obviously, your broadhead of choice failed miserably in Seth's defined testing. Studying the data that Seth is producing is MUCH, MUCH better than following the paid mouths on TV that are SOLELY using a product based on $$$ income. UTGrad, I have no idea what you majored in at UT but common sense wasn't involved.

All broadhead manufactures test their heads, at least I hope so, before taking them to market. Some manufacturers choose to focus their dollars on marketing their heads (Rage) and it worked great to make them money. What Seth is doing is much more valuable than what the Drury brothers, Randy Ulmer, OldHootOwl or any other paid advertiser, product owner or paid spokesperson says. Not all of us have shot many dozens of deer and have close friends and family that have done the same to share experiences with.

The real "sheep" are the folks that jump on a product based on "Sham Wow" advertising. 

I'm not a mechanical head user but I have to say the steel proto Ulmer Edge has my attention whereas the first time I laid eyes on the Rage I saw a product I would consider inferior.


----------



## Kstigall

sethro02 said:


> thanks man.
> 
> 
> these hunor heads will be tested in next round...i think they will do pretty well...super short ferrule!


I have grown fond of short ferrule heads.


----------



## sethro02

I also highly doubt he has used reapers for 12 years


----------



## sethro02

Im excited for next test..never seen hunor bh's in person..also tge missing link in the slick trick testing...the razortrick


----------



## MattyB

31 of the top 38 are fixed blades. Just saying.


----------



## 206Moose

I have to admit that ulmer edge really has me intrigued. I'm all about penetration and it was the only head to get a complete pass through. 

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2


----------



## Grigorio

sethro02 said:


> First... Sorry I forgot to put cut surface on the heads..havent tested for awhile so I forgot.


So, will you be putting the forgotten cut surfaces in the spreadsheet for those that are currently missing them? Total cutting surface is one more piece of information that is useful when comparing broadheads.

Sethro02, your testing is obviously a labor of love. I believe the results do yield useful information for comparison and applaud your perserverence. Thanks for undertaking this project.

In my opinion, a lesson learned from this thread (all 121 pages of it so far) is to lock the thread to comments by others and report the testing and results only; set up a second thread for discussion.


----------



## UTGrad

Kstigall said:


> What you are suggesting is to not use your noodle to decide on a broadhead. Are you serious? You suggest we all have to try a plethora of broadheads knowing full well some are very likely not appropriate. Total hogwash. You don't have to be particularly bright or highly educated in a formal setting to realize "testing" using non-live game makes perfect sense. Nationwide just how many animals would have to be lost or injured before we collectively decide a head was of marginal quality or there was a better choice? Obviously, your broadhead of choice failed miserably in Seth's defined testing. Studying the data that Seth is producing is MUCH, MUCH better than following the paid mouths on TV that are SOLELY using a product based on $$$ income. UTGrad, I have no idea what you majored in at UT but common sense wasn't involved.
> 
> All broadhead manufactures test their heads, at least I hope so, before taking them to market. Some manufacturers choose to focus their dollars on marketing their heads (Rage) and it worked great to make them money. What Seth is doing is much more valuable than what the Drury brothers, Randy Ulmer, OldHootOwl or any other paid advertiser, product owner or paid spokesperson says. Not all of us have shot many dozens of deer and have close friends and family that have done the same to share experiences with.
> 
> The real "sheep" are the folks that jump on a product based on "Sham Wow" advertising.
> 
> I'm not a mechanical head user but I have to say the steel proto Ulmer Edge has my attention whereas the first time I laid eyes on the Rage I saw a product I would consider inferior.


Re read my post bud...IMO it is better to select a broadhead based on results on live game from people here on AT vs a broadhead test.

No where did I say watch the hunting shows and make a decision. Filter through broadheads on AT during hunting season when live game results are coming in. That's how I came to use Reapers. No they did not fail miserably in this test. Seth just gave it a low score on reliability which doesn't make a lot of sense, especially for anyone that uses them.

Sorry im raining on your popularity parade Seth. You have a pretty solid following of like 5 people that spend most of the day on your thread. Just watching Oldhootowl get ripped was ridiculous.


----------



## Michael Myers

UTGrad said:


> Re read my post bud...IMO it is better to select a broadhead based on results on live game from people here on AT vs a broadhead test.
> 
> No where did I say watch the hunting shows and make a decision. Filter through broadheads on AT during hunting season when live game results are coming in. That's how I came to use Reapers. No they did not fail miserably in this test. Seth just gave it a low score on reliability which doesn't make a lot of sense, especially for anyone that uses them.
> 
> Sorry im raining on your popularity parade Seth. You have a pretty solid following of like 5 people that spend most of the day on your thread. Just watching Oldhootowl get ripped was ridiculous.


Wow..Get over the Grim Reapers...Seriously,They are a Great head,Stop pouting over them,It's ridicolous Utgrad...Why are you so upset?And if it's not bothering you,Why are you still complaining about it?My buddy kills with them every year...It's just a Test..


----------



## brokenlittleman

sethro02 said:


> Get em! You wont be dissapointed either way...i super glued a few gravediggers shut so I could shoot them more *because they do damage to your target*..ive shot them a bunch though


Plus the mechanical blades will break as well.


----------



## sethro02

Next test will be locked...ill start a seperatr thread for discussion....we only have a few more heads to go


----------



## upserman

sethro02 said:


> Get em! You wont be dissapointed either way...i super glued a few gravediggers shut so I could shoot them more because they do damage to your target..ive shot them a bunch though


I just received my Gravediggers and was going to do the same as you have. Does the super glue ruin the ferrels???


----------



## BigToot

hey seth..before you start or lock thread...i just want to say thanks for everything and aall he time and resources you have put into all this...dont let haters getcha down..


----------



## Michael Myers

upserman said:


> I just received my Gravediggers and was going to do the same as you have. Does the super glue ruin the ferrels???


I Dont think it will wreck the Ferrule,I Glued 1 of mine yesterday,I Was told from Dale to repeat the Process every 20-25 Shots and to make sure you tighten the Screw as well,I am Pumped to Shoot them out of my old Pse Thunderbolt this Weekend.Grizz


----------



## nolimitarchery

upserman said:


> I just received my Gravediggers and was going to do the same as you have. Does the super glue ruin the ferrels???


You don't need to glue them to the ferrule you can just put the super glue on the blades and then close them and tighten the screw/pin and they will glue to each other.

Thanks
Dale


----------



## sethro02

mail call! Atom Broadhead....this should be the last of heads i think. so far next test will have:
Hunor africa
-neo
-magor

atom broadhead

slick trick razortrick


----------



## sethro02

Attention. Wil ray solano please pm me!!!! If your on here. Thanks!


----------



## goathollow

sethro02 said:


> mail call! Atom Broadhead....this should be the last of heads i think. so far next test will have:
> Hunor africa
> -neo
> -magor
> 
> atom broadhead
> 
> 
> 
> 
> slick trick razortrick


This should be interesting.


----------



## sethro02

i think the hunors will go through second set of media....im confused on atom though.....part of me thinks its gonna be a passthrough cause the wires are gonna fold back


----------



## Boghdóir

This next round of heads has me pumped. What a great round, Humors to hit hard, Razor Trick to penetrate, Atom for comic relief!


----------



## Boghdóir

Hunor, not humor. Last time I said "pit a decimal meter" instead of "put a decibel meter".


----------



## thaHooligan

is there a video? can someone give me the link or page number its on? no way im gona scroll through 100 pages to find it.....


----------



## henro

I'm disappointed that Steelforce didn't get a single bevel to you to try... I'd consider sending you one of my 190gr heads but it wouldn't be a fair fight.:wink: My dad has the 100gr but they're not mine to send and he didn't buy a bunch like me.


----------



## mikajay

thaHooligan said:


> is there a video? can someone give me the link or page number its on? no way im gona scroll through 100 pages to find it.....


Page 116.

r.mika


----------



## Griz34

sethro02 said:


> i think the hunors will go through second set of media....im confused on atom though.....part of me thinks its gonna be a passthrough cause the wires are gonna fold back


My bet is that the wires will come off when it passes through the first layer of plywood.


----------



## Michael Myers

IowaAssassin said:


> Kind of a Howard Stern type. Don't like him either. To each their own. Listened for a bit, got tired of whining and beating a dead horse. Has a right to his own opinion but come on already, give it a break. Sure he's a nice guy or whatever just tired of wasting my time on his posts. Enough about him, I'm looking forward to the next test. This isn't the broadhead bible but it beats buying all these heads myself (and I do own ALOT of them) Some of these heads aren't for me and some I was on the fence about. Some I thought were crap and impressed me. Others I thought were promising and dissappointed me. There is definitely something to be learned about durability in this test and I appreciate sethro for going through with it even with all the haters that complain about their head not doing so well. (UTgrad for example, lol!) What I'm really trying to say is, I love shooting fuzzy things with sharp pointy things and then eating them :wink:


Seth's just Lucky my Broahead of Choice did well...Lol.I dont like bein Called a Sheep,I think Seth has done a Great Job and spent a lot of Time and Money doing this,I love trying Different heads,And really when it comes down to it,I Could care less how it did in a Test or if Someone else liked it,I Make my own Decisions.Keep up the Great Work,Seth.You have more Patience then i do.Cheers and Best of Luck,I am Heading to Watch Batman with some Buddies and then Going Away until Monday or Tuesday.....Grizz


----------



## goathollow

henro said:


> I'm disappointed that Steelforce didn't get a single bevel to you to try... I'd consider sending you one of my 190gr heads but it wouldn't be a fair fight.:wink: My dad has the 100gr but they're not mine to send and he didn't buy a bunch like me.


The Phathead certainly held its own amoungst the 100 grainers.


----------



## 206Moose

goathollow said:


> The Phathead certainly held its own amoungst the 100 grainers.


I am anxious to see how the razortrick does compared to the pahathead. I dont think it will be as durable. 

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2


----------



## goathollow

NTYMADATER said:


> I am anxious to see how the razortrick does compared to the pahathead. I dont think it will be as durable.
> 
> Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2


Well there is durable than there's DURABLE...08 thick main blade is going to be hard to beat with just about anything. Doesn't mean the Razortrick won't do well. I'll be watching closely...after 27 years with Muzzy 4 blade I'm making a switch (can't get the Muzzy's to group, no complaints other than that) and my quiver will be filled with either Phatheads (so far my #1 choice) Vipertricks or Razortricks. I may throw in the odd Ulmer Edge just to see if I can make myself shoot a mechanical :tongue:


----------



## sethro02

i think razortrick will hold up but penetration wont be same as phathead...imo!


----------



## Bigbuck5

UTGrad said:


> No they did not fail miserably in this test. Seth just gave it a low score on reliability which doesn't make a lot of sense, especially for anyone that uses them.


Honestly man, If reapers did good on the test, all your hopes and dreams would have come true and you would have been saying such great things about how great of a test this was and all. But they didn't do good. I love NAP heads. they are a great old name to go with, but they didn't do good on here either. In fact, some of them did worse. But do you see and NAP fan-boys on here bit**ing like crazy that this test is invalid cause their head of choice didn't do good? NOPE. I bet you people won't even want buy grim reapers because they see tools like you posting and whining. My old man shoots reapers through his xbow and they are great, but if he saw this, it wouldn't be the end of the world. He has seen them prove themselves and that is enough for him. I shot schwackers last year and they didn't do any better than your heads, but not once have I ever complained because of a "my head didn't do as good as yours" situation. If the blade broke and is no where to be found, that is a fail on durability or reliability. Everyone gets that but you man. Just shoot them if you like them, otherwise just DROP IT for the sake of everyone else. THANK YOU


----------



## Bigbuck5

and on that note its time for another beer:beer::tongue:


----------



## UTGrad

I will never post another thread in this post again. You guys have fun shooting plywood and gel. Maybe the test will reveal the best all around broadhead. It's been fun being devil's advocate to this test. Good luck everyone this season and may you "Watch them Drop" lol


----------



## Speed 1B

Atom might pass thru.


----------



## IndianaPSE

*The Leader - A REPORT CARD
*
I was out back tuning my bow ever so slightly (I'm a perfectionist) and was at 40y with my new VPA 100g Vented heads (the perfect score BH).

My wife called me and I turned and said what (at full draw and settled pin) and pulled my shot, dropping into a 4 inch log which was horizontal under my BH target. SMACK!

Buried it 1/2" past the insert. Completely submerged!!!

It took me 20 min. of careful chiseling.

Finally got it out and screwed it back on and spin tested it - 'TWAS FREAKIN' FLAWLESS!!! A few licks on the stone, it's back in the hunting quiver.

All I can say is WOW!


----------



## sethro02

those things are for sure tough


----------



## ScopeRKT

Grim Reaper Hades. Tried these yet


----------



## sethro02

No...i need to wrap this test up..may not get to them


----------



## rancher011

> Bigbuck5 - and on that note its time for another beer


Amen brother lol ^^^. Been following the thread and finally decided to post a comment. By the way Seth I think you have done a great job with your testing and I appreciate someone like you putting all this time and money into a test for all of us AT'ers to see. ScopeRKT for the sake of everyone that has been paying attention to this thread I would hope that if Seth did test another broadhead that for the love of God it would not be a Grim Reaper head. If you haven't looked at any of the pages like 1 through 122 then maybe you should and you would see the reason why. Oh one hint, he went to a college where the color is puke orange lol


----------



## ScopeRKT

I know what's going on but I think its childish. Its a test get over it. I can make a test to make any thing fail. Look at it for what it is. I know this isn't game. But I'm looking at this from more of a durability worse case seinerio test. Sucks than a few can ruin it for the many.


----------



## sethro02

i'm glad some of you are still checking thread....after i wrap this up i'll definately put alot of thought into the next test...the noise debate may be a top contender but i would still like to do different weighted arrows at different draw weights at different ranges.


----------



## lung smasher

sethro02 said:


> Get em! You wont be dissapointed either way...i super glued a few gravediggers shut so I could shoot them more because they do damage to your target..ive shot them a bunch though


I want em even worse. Imma have to break down when I get paid and buy some. Thank you for all the testing I would have never known about either broad head for this huntin season. I work 3rd shift so I greatly appreciate it I don't have time to test. Thanks a lot man.


----------



## xcal1ber

Thanks for the test!


----------



## Laplacesdemon

sethro02 said:


> sonoran xbow 2 blade 100 grain test results:
> 1 3/8" cutting diameter
> 
> penetration- 10
> durability- 5
> dependability- 5
> sharp before- 4
> sharp after- 4
> flight- 5
> total score- 33 out of 35 (total penetration, 13")
> View attachment 1434680


Thanks for testing this head, it is one that I had donated. I just wanted to clarify, the head is made by Aftershock Archery and is called the Xbow Xpr 100. It also comes in 80 and 125 grains. I probably didn't mark the heads very clearly, and it is similar to the Sonoran's in the design, so it is totally understandable you would have it down as a Sonoran.

The thing I find most interesting about these heads is that the ferrule and chisel tip are one solid piece of 7075T6 aluminum, and in every test I've done or seen, including angled shots through 3/4" plywood, the ferrule emerges totally unscathed. The 7075T6 is much stronger than other aluminum alloys, and stronger than some steels. I would love to see an Ulmer Edge with a solid one-piece 7075T6 ferrule and chisel tip--the weight savings from losing the steel tip might allow for a 1.75" or even 2" cut diameter in a 100 grain head, without sacrificing durability.


----------



## 206Moose

sethro02 said:


> i'm glad some of you are still checking thread....after i wrap this up i'll definately put alot of thought into the next test...the noise debate may be a top contender but i would still like to do different weighted arrows at different draw weights at different ranges.


My vote goes for weight. 

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2


----------



## sethro02

Awesome...thanks guys


----------



## Norwegian Woods

Draw weight, arrow weight and also a angled shot test on the plywood as well


----------



## sethro02

yea those angled shots would really point out the ferrule strength


----------



## corey006

UTGrad said:


> I will never post another thread in this post again. You guys have fun shooting plywood and gel. Maybe the test will reveal the best all around broadhead. It's been fun being devil's advocate to this test. Good luck everyone this season and may you "Watch them Drop" lol


WOW, 

You catch on fast.

It only took you 122 pages and about 50 guys telling you to stop whining and leave?

P.S.

Don't let the door hit you in the behind as you leave.:boink:


----------



## corey006

Seth, 

Angled test should be included.

For next test you should put milk jug full of water infront of gelatin and time how long it takes to drain?

That might allow you to use less gelatin.


----------



## sethro02

all of these are good thoughts for sure, i've been thinking the same way but I really did not want to shoot all these heads again! I'll probably take top scoring broadheads or an assortment of different heads if i go that route. i was thinking leftover hide wrapped around a filled water balloon with red dye in it for the bleedout test


----------



## GarrickTX

Very interested in the outcome of the Atom.... Kinda like shooting a jigsaw into something LOL


----------



## sethro02

hah my plan was to test this weekend but it's mainly looking like sunday....unless kids go to sleep super early on a friday night


----------



## GarrickTX

I don't think it will do well in this test because of the hard contact, but imagine what kind of damage that thing will do on a good shot scenario... it would demolish organs


----------



## sethro02

Hey guys, gonna try to do this tonight, if not it will be sunday...let me start by saying this once again because of all the broadhead threads going around. This is only a test..head to head vs my contraption to test penetration and durability. this is all based on my findings and/ or opinion. all of these heads willl kill animals! 
Round 11 fixed heads: 
1. atom broadhead
2. slick trick razortrick
3. hunor africa
4. hunor neo
5. hunor magor


----------



## sethro02

thanks for these donated heads...should be interesting


----------



## axeforce6

sethro02 said:


> Hey guys, gonna try to do this tonight, if not it will be sunday...let me start by saying this once again because of all the broadhead threads going around. This is only a test..head to head vs my contraption to test penetration and durability. this is all based on my findings and/ or opinion. all of these heads willl kill animals!
> Round 11 fixed heads:
> 1. atom broadhead
> 2. slick trick razortrick
> 3. hunor africa
> 4. hunor neo
> 5. hunor magor
> View attachment 1437813


Id shoot everyone of those except for those atoms!!!


----------



## sethro02

Those hunors look wicked I think..like a spiderman broadhead..lol


----------



## Michael Myers

Wow,We havent got rain in 3 Months and we are getting 35-45 Mm today,Lol.I Guess i am a Fair Weather Coyote hunter cause we decided to not go,But we are Goin tommorow if it clears up,Supposed to rain for 4 Days,I Like the Look of the Hunor Broadheads.I Would imagine they will all do well,I am interested in seeing if the Atom Broadhead stays in tact.Great Work,Seth.Hopefully i dont get Flamed for the Atom Remark.....Grizz


----------



## Michael Myers

So i was in Ottawa this morning,Doin a Little shopping,Actually was Picking up a Turkey Shotgun for my Old man(Winchester Sxp Pump) and all they sell is Crossbow Equipment,But they did have all the New Rage heads,Those 2.3 Rage Look Amazing,Wow,Never seen them in Person....Very,Very Impressed with them,I Mean Wow.Grizz


----------



## eltaco

Seth, can you comment on noise in flight on those Hunors? Those are some interesting heads, but much like the silverflames I'm curious how loud all of those cutouts will be in flight!


----------



## 0nepin

Are those hunor heads the Mathews edition jk they look cool.


sethro02 said:


> Hey guys, gonna try to do this tonight, if not it will be sunday...let me start by saying this once again because of all the broadhead threads going around. This is only a test..head to head vs my contraption to test penetration and durability. this is all based on my findings and/ or opinion. all of these heads willl kill animals!
> Round 11 fixed heads:
> 1. atom broadhead
> 2. slick trick razortrick
> 3. hunor africa
> 4. hunor neo
> 5. hunor magor
> View attachment 1437813


----------



## Super 91

Wonder if you get any flight noise from all those waffle irons.....hmmm......


----------



## Viper69

Those Hunors look wicked.


----------



## tack09

Man those hunors look tough. Seth you may need to change your plywood to steel armor for those babies. lol I heard you get a set of those with the purchase of a Mathews Safari edition bow.


----------



## henro

henro said:


> I'm disappointed that Steelforce didn't get a single bevel to you to try... I'd consider sending you one of my 190gr heads but it wouldn't be a fair fight.:wink: My dad has the 100gr but they're not mine to send and he didn't buy a bunch like me.





goathollow said:


> The Phathead certainly held its own amoungst the 100 grainers.


I was referring to the single bevel version, not the standard double bevel phatheads. I've owned both and we all shoot a variant of the single bevel versions at my house now(190gr/145gr/100gr). Compared to the standard Phatheads I shot in the past the single bevel does make a difference in penetration. I can't wait till we all zip some through some deer this year.


----------



## tack09

Hey Onepin, you need to try one of those Hunors out of your 90lb bow on an elephant. I bet you could get a pass through. hehe


----------



## sethro02

I wiill shoot hunors from 50 eltaco just cause im curious too


----------



## sethro02

The hunor website had video of them going through steel so it could be a plywood sawdust bloodbath


----------



## sethro02

place your bets! its goin down!


----------



## Rhody Hunter

Cool looking heads. Not sure if the atom will hold up. Look forward to the results


----------



## 0nepin

I'm going With the hunor Africa .


----------



## GregBS

Atom will detonate on impact. Seen it with my own eyes before. I like them Hunor heads but they look to be LOUD in flight.


----------



## sethro02

alright guys, test complete...arrow parts flying, broadhead parts flying....and the first ever flight score below 5 (i have been very very very very very easy on this score i might add)


----------



## fxwg85

Parts flying!!!! I'm ready for pics


----------



## 0nepin

How bad the humor fly?


----------



## sethro02

Atom broadhead test results:
1 1/8 x 1 1/8" cutting diameter, 2.5" total cutting surface

penetration- 10
durability- 0 FAIL
dependability- 2 ( one blade stayed on, :embara:
sharp before- 3 ( this is controversial...these weren't made to be scary sharp, but within respect of fairness to the test i have to stay on track with my scoring, sorry)
sharp after- 3
flight- 5
total score- 23 out of 35 (total penetration, 26.5" I called passthrough i was almost right!)


----------



## sethro02

hold your pants jason im getting there!


----------



## sethro02

atom


----------



## sethro02

atom, notice blade in pic


----------



## sethro02

atom gel entry


----------



## sethro02

atom gel exit


----------



## sethro02

sorry crap pic^^^^ but you can tell their is only one slit,,,minus one blade


----------



## sethro02

slick trick razortrick test results: SLICK TRICK USERS YOU SHOULD BE HAPPY, ALL YOUR HEADS SCORED VERY WELL!
1 1/8" x 7/8" diameter, 3.5"total cut surface

penetration- 9
durability- 5
dependability- 5
sharp before- 5
sharp after- 4
flight- 5
total score- 33 out of 35 (total penetration, 9")


----------



## sethro02

razortrick


----------



## sethro02

razortrick gel


----------



## sethro02

Hunor Africa Test results: Thank you Baldzs for the donated heads
1 1/8" diameter 2 blade, 2.75" cutting surface

penetration- 7.5
durability- 5
dependability- 5
sharp before- 5
sharp after- 4
flight- 4 (loud) IN MY OPINION
total score- 30.5 out of 35 (total penetration, 7.5")_


----------



## sethro02

africa


----------



## sethro02

africa


----------



## 206Moose

Disappointed in the penetration of razortrick. I thought for sure it would get a 10. Any thoughts on why it didn't pass through seth? You can pm me if you want so nobody will think you're bashing. Lol. I would still like for somebody to tell me what you can use besides ballistics gel. 

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2


----------



## sethro02

Hunor Neo test results:
1 1/2" diameter 2 blade, 2.75" cutting surface

penetration- 8
durability- 5
dependability- 5
sharp before- 5
sharp after- 4
flight- 3 ( i gave it a 3 because i had to shoot all 3 heads to get one to hit...part human error yea, part really big broadhead, yea. but this took 3 attempts, I had to mark down the score, every other broadhead has hit exactly where i am aiming, sorry i think this is fair, IN MY OPINION)
total score- 30 out of 35 (total penetration, 8")


----------



## sethro02

i'll pm you in a minute


----------



## sethro02

neo


----------



## sethro02

3rd shot ^^^^^^


----------



## sethro02

Neo....this was my second attempt, and this is what happend. im just posting this so im not called a liar.


----------



## sethro02

neo gel


----------



## sethro02

Hunor Magor test results:
1 1/4" x 1", 3.5" cutting surface

penetration- 8
durability- 5
dependability- 5 
sharp before- 5
sharp after- 4
flight- 4 ( loud, IN MY OPINION)
total score- 31 out of 35 (total penetration, 8")


----------



## sethro02

magor entry
ATTACH=CONFIG]1438040[/ATTACH]


----------



## sethro02

magor gel


----------



## eltaco

Whoa, I expected loud for the hunors, for sure, but poor flight and penetration, too?!

Glad I chose the Solids!

Thanks for testing those Seth. I am somewhat surprised at how big of difference there is!


----------



## sethro02

Me too...but im sure someone will let me know i rigged it or something....i had to give the neo a lower score just because I shoot bigger broadheads out to 50 yds no problem but this one was a bit different...could have been all me but I shot 3 times to be fair


----------



## MarkBaHoi

I'm not going to call you a liar but the africa heads I had were DEAD NUTS on....but stuff happens...

Thanks!


----------



## sethro02

the africa was dead on

the neo is the only one i had issues with


----------



## 22lyons

Been watching all the tests and have been wondering something. if you center-punched a white tail through the ribs/lungs with everyone of the broadheads from your set-up what would your hunch be as far as passthroughs?


----------



## 22lyons

thanks for the testing btw. i have enjoyed reading the results.


----------



## sethro02

the majority would all passthrough hard to say 100 percent but with my setup i was shooting in the test, yes most all would passthrough...in my opinion this set up is alot tougher than a straight on double lung pass through but is softer than a shoulder shot.


----------



## lung smasher

In your opinion which head was the sharpest you tested. There are several at 5 on sharpness score.


----------



## 22lyons

sethro02 said:


> the majority would all passthrough hard to say 100 percent but with my setup i was shooting in the test, yes most all would passthrough...in my opinion this set up is alot tougher than a straight on double lung pass through but is softer than a shoulder shot.


yep for sure your test is much tougher. I guess my hunch would be the same as yours that everyone of them would probably have a passthrough. My hunch is that even a dull head would get a passthrough from your setup if it was only rib and lungs. If that is the case then it would seem to me the argument regarding the balistic gel is a moot point as far as penetration is concerned because you can't get better than a passthrough. not sure if that makes sense.

For me I was most interested seeing the results for the most durable expandable.


----------



## sethro02

your setting me up for some bashing man! j/k...um in my opinion it's a toss up, their all so similar but if i had to pick, vpa vented, steelforce phathead, solid standard, exodus swept probably stood out the most


----------



## sethro02

yea i would agree with my set up that a "duller" head would still get a passthrough in a perfect rib only shot like you described....i didnt want these heads to completely passthrough but honestly that first set of medium and gel takes alottttt of momentum out of the arrow/point


----------



## sethro02

i'll throw in the g5 stiker as well on sharpness...it didnt hold its sharpness as well as the other 4 i mentioned though


----------



## tapout155

I would like to say thank you for all the tests Seth, you're a good man, that took alot of time and money of your own to entertain the masses. It's obvious you have tried to stay fair and the the way you test all these heads has stayed as consistent as possible. Thanks alot


----------



## sethro02

no prob...hope you tune in for more


----------



## eltaco

On a whiterail, you might say the penetration is not important, but those of us who go after elk are undoubtedly paying attention to this detail. If I have the option of choosing a head that couldn't make it thru the test medium while others are nearing 20" or more, it wipes those that couldn't pass thru off my personal list.


----------



## sethro02

good point eltaco. i forgot what is your go to head this year?


----------



## bone74

tapout155 said:


> I would like to say thank you for all the tests Seth, you're a good man, that took alot of time and money of your own to entertain the masses. It's obvious you have tried to stay fair and the the way you test all these heads has stayed as consistent as possible. Thanks alot


:set1_applaud:

Yes thank you! I just ordered a set of Grave Diggers that I probly never would have known about them without this test. Cant wait to shoot them this year!


----------



## sethro02

love my gravediggers!


----------



## eltaco

sethro02 said:


> good point eltaco. i forgot what is your go to head this year?


I'm going to be shooting the Solids this year on an ACC Pro Hunter shafts. Penetrated well on your test, stupid sharp, relatively quiet, and one very strong looking head with an all steel ferrule and thick blades. While I'm sure a lot of these heads will be sufficient, I have a lot of confidence in placing this head at the business end of my arrow this season!

Only 14-days!!!!


----------



## sethro02

yea that solid head is pretty! i feel bad shooting it into something!


----------



## 22lyons

eltaco said:


> On a whiterail, you might say the penetration is not important, but those of us who go after elk are undoubtedly paying attention to this detail. If I have the option of choosing a head that couldn't make it thru the test medium while others are nearing 20" or more, it wipes those that couldn't pass thru off my personal list.


You are right about that!
I guess i don't understand what the big deal about the gel has been to some. After reading all about it still doesn't seem like a big deal to me.
Fun tests.
Thanks


----------



## sethro02

in my opinion the gel is tough to get through and consistent from one batch to the next so I dont understand how you cant use it to measure penetration...im not a newbie i've been hunting for the better part of 20 years, if anything the plywood is the most inconsistent


----------



## eltaco

sethro02 said:


> yea that solid head is pretty! i feel bad shooting it into something!


The thing is a work of art.. some serious thought went into it. I was pleased to see the ferrule diameter matched my arrow diameter as well... if for nothing else, just looks like it belongs there.

Its pretty, no doubt... but I won't have a problem sharing that thing of beauty with an elk given the opportunity


----------



## brokenlittleman

Any idea why the magor is angled into your contraption? Did it not fly true?


----------



## lung smasher

sethro02 said:


> your setting me up for some bashing man! j/k...um in my opinion it's a toss up, their all so similar but if i had to pick, vpa vented, steelforce phathead, solid standard, exodus swept probably stood out the most


Sorry lol. I was just kinda curious. I appreciate it man.


----------



## sethro02

The magor flew true..i know after it hit, the contraption was toast so the boards were loose...it was fine before the shot but the magor impact finished off the conttaption


----------



## 0nepin

NTYMADATER said:


> Disappointed in the penetration of razortrick. I thought for sure it would get a 10. Any thoughts on why it didn't pass through seth? You can pm me if you want so nobody will think you're bashing. Lol. I would still like for somebody to tell me what you can use besides ballistics gel.
> 
> Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2


For four blades the Razortrick did very well,that if you like little holes.Jk I'm pretty sure if it only had three blades it would of passed through.


----------



## sethro02

Onepin that rage digger looks sick! Everything fit


----------



## sethro02

This may have been last test but I may throw in a couple more long range shots


----------



## Smoknnca

sethro02 said:


> This may have been last test but I may throw in a couple more long range shots


Black ops long range please.


----------



## sethro02

Ok I think I can swing that


----------



## 0nepin

sethro02 said:


> Onepin that rage digger looks sick! Everything fit


Can't wait to see how it performs.


----------



## eltaco

sethro02 said:


> This may have been last test but I may throw in a couple more long range shots


Still have that solid? How long of range are you talking?

I'm surprised the black ops didn't get more attention with the penetration numbers it put up.

Maybe time for a steel plate test


----------



## sethro02

I still have solid...i may shoot a couple top runners from 40 yds...yea those shuttle t's are crazy...the terminal tlock as well but they are smaller


----------



## Grigorio

Seth, if you reshoot the Solid from 40 would you take a measurement of its Total Cut Surface while you're at it? Thanks.


----------



## sethro02

Took measurement...sent ned a message to update results..sorry went out of town...ill make sure updates happen


----------



## Popknott

I have not had a chance to read the entire 126 pages so I am not sure if you are still testing heads. If so could you test the Redfeather Archery Phoenix head. That head won an extensive test on another site but you have more of a complete list so I just wanted to see how it might fair against the heads you have tested so far. I myself appreciate what you have done, time money and putting up with *******s for no reason other than to *****.


----------



## sethro02

ha thanks man....im pretty much done but if someone donated one of those heads i would throw it in the test otherwise I think im done....


----------



## Rothhar1

sethro02 said:


> ha thanks man....im pretty much done but if someone donated one of those heads i would throw it in the test otherwise I think im done....


good job seth nice tests and maybe they will sticky the results for everyone


----------



## sethro02

yea that'd be nice so i can change my sig....once ned250 does the updates maybe we could get it sticky...


----------



## Boomerang

The Phoenix should come out about the same as the 100gr. vented VPA since it is made by VPA. The only differance is that it is single bevel and sharpened by Red Feather.


----------



## sethro02

Interesting...hooefully o can get one


----------



## Ned250

sethro02 said:


> Took measurement...sent ned a message to update results..sorry went out of town...ill make sure updates happen


I updated the sheet with the cut surface and added the new test results - https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AgJEvQwzfDRZdGxzdC15R0JIZDJGQ1J4bVpGV1pTWHc


----------



## sethro02

Thank you nick. Glad you helped with this.


----------



## 206Moose

It will never be a sticky because a certain supporting sponser of AT doesnt like ballistics gel. He starts a thread and never does answer any questions and then has it closed after the slick trick fanboys post a bunch of kill pics. I use slick tricks so don't accuse me of bashing but i would have liked to debate the ballistics gel issue. Bottom line its the most viable option that can be repeated with any consistency. His test was about penetration through not so ideal situation like shoulder hits and i think his test did a very good job. No test is perfect. 

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2


----------



## sethro02

Yea im just happy I was the last to post on it! Bottom line all heads were shot through the same medium...i dont want this thread to turn into that thiugh..i still never got reasonable explanations from him but its fine


----------



## Michael Myers

sethro02 said:


> Yea im just happy I was the last to post on it! Bottom line all heads were shot through the same medium...i dont want this thread to turn into that thiugh..i still never got reasonable explanations from him but its fine


Seth,Shot my Grave diggers at my Target all weekend,Never did go Coyote Huntin,I am impressed with the Damage on the Target and How well thy Fly,I Believe the Testing you did was 100% Fair to each broadhead,Baffles me why some People have a Problem if there Broadhead they use got a lower mark or theres some who think they know everything about tests and Insults others tests,All tests are just that Tests,Who is to say which one is better or more realistic? I Will be Purchasing 2 Packs of the 2.3" Rage,After seeing them and after How great my 100 Gr Rage shot for me Last Fall,I Still have a Hard time Changing.Thanks For everything,I Know this Guy appreciates it all.Grizz


----------



## sethro02

No prob man kill something!


----------



## goathollow

NTYMADATER said:


> It will never be a sticky because a certain supporting sponser of AT doesnt like ballistics gel. He starts a thread and never does answer any questions and then has it closed after the slick trick fanboys post a bunch of kill pics. I use slick tricks so don't accuse me of bashing but i would have liked to debate the ballistics gel issue. Bottom line its the most viable option that can be repeated with any consistency. His test was about penetration through not so ideal situation like shoulder hits and i think his test did a very good job. No test is perfect.
> 
> Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2


I didn't care for the approach he took with the ballistics jell banter either, in fact I think it cast he and his company in a poor light. Maybe I'm giving him to much credit but maybe he closed the thread when he realized that the direction it was going was not a good thing. Maybe???


----------



## sethro02

Agreed goathollow...it should have been called slick trick kill thread in my opinion...nothing really came of the debate...alot of different broadheads killed animals...i think thunderheads have probably taken several animals


----------



## Bigbuck5

Popknott said:


> I have not had a chance to read the entire 126 pages so I am not sure if you are still testing heads. If so could you test the Redfeather Archery Phoenix head. That head won an extensive test on another site but you have more of a complete list so I just wanted to see how it might fair against the heads you have tested so far. I myself appreciate what you have done, time money and putting up with *******s for no reason other than to *****.


They're promo video is sick! saw them bust through a hanging steel pan!. I would only have an issue with not being able to replace the blades if they broke. if it is one piece and it cracks, then that would suck.


----------



## brokenlittleman

sethro02 said:


> Agreed goathollow...it should have been called slick trick kill thread in my opinion...nothing really came of the debate...alot of different broadheads killed animals...i think thunderheads have probably taken several animals


The guy voiced his opinion about using gel for a medium and then stated in his opinion that live tests are the most accurate representation of what will actually happen, others provided those test results via pictures. Whats wrong with that. I think far too many have put way too much stock in this test. I applaud all of your efforts, time and money as many don't have the means to do a test like this but it does not represent what will happen in game. It only respresents what happens on plywood and ballistic gel, period. Trying to say otherwise is foolish. I will shoot what I know has performed for me in the past and try new things that I think will perform for me going forward.


----------



## goathollow

goathollow said:


> I didn't care for the approach he took with the ballistics jell banter either, in fact I think it cast he and his company in a poor light. Maybe I'm giving him to much credit but maybe he closed the thread when he realized that the direction it was going was not a good thing. Maybe???


For clarity, let me restate that...maybe he closed the thread because he realized that fussing about ballistics gel was only causing him to look like he was belittling Seth's tests and that wasn't his point. The thread he started became a test bashing contest and an over the top defense of STs. Maybe that whole thing simply became distasteful to oldhootowl and he wanted to end it before it go completely out of hand. I have no idea what his intentions were in closing it because he didn't state them but I'm trying my best to give him the benefit of the doubt.


----------



## 1Lee

I, have shot Slick trick mag's for the past few years and they have been good to me. Gary and Tony at Slick trick has always been very helpful when I called them and they do make a very good head. I, will be trying the ulmer out this year maybe the new Rage but I will always have some trick's on stand by. I, pulled the trick's out yesterday and shot a few and they were still right on with my field tips if truth known those ulmer will really have to be good to keep me from going back to the Trick mag's this year.


----------



## sethro02

Awesome im glad you guys like your slick tricks...i dont want this to turn into what that thread was so if you want to talk about that thread maybe someone should start another st thread


----------



## sethro02

I dont think people put too much stock in this thread..maybe some actually just seen it useful...same shot same medium...i dont disagree about real world results..been doing this long enough...but I like to know how durable something is before I go risking a shot on a monster buck


----------



## elkman406

Sethro, on the other thread that was closed, you stated that the grizz has a larger diameter ferrule than the standard. Can you measure that for me? I'm not being disingenuous, I simply don't have the grizz here and according to slicktrick they are basically the same diameter. 

The comment I made regarding the penetration potential of a smaller head vs a larger diameter one has to do with volumetric drag coefficient and hydrodynamic drag. 

The fact that ballistic gel allows something with a larger frontal surface and volumetric measurement to out penetrate one of smaller proportions seems to show that this medium (ballistic gel) does not act like a fluid system. If the surface finish (smoothness) of a body are similar and the cross-section area (cutting surface combined with frontal area of ferrule) is greater, then the smaller profile projectile will have less drag and penetrate further by conserving momentum.

If a medium somehow rewards the opposite results, then one must logically conclude that the test (the ballistic gel penetration part of your test) has less merit than a system that corresponds with the math. All this scientific theory is way over my head, so I'm only touching on points on how and why ballistic gel penetration might differ from gobs of anecdotal evidence supporting that streamlined broadheads yield deeper penetration in animals compared to broadheads with larger obtuse angle designs.

The physics behind the calculations is heavy and a simulated (to animal) material is probably impossible to reproduce.

I know you've never said otherwise and the durabilty part of the test was very much appreciated.


----------



## brokenlittleman

sethro02 said:


> *I dont think people put too much stock in this thread*..maybe some actually just seen it useful...same shot same medium...i dont disagree about real world results..been doing this long enough...but I like to know how durable something is before I go risking a shot on a monster buck


I would agree with this had I not seen many people saying how they are giving up a broadhead thay have used successfully for years because it didn't perform well in this test. I like to know how durable something is as well but like I stated earlier shooting through plywood will not tell me how durable it will be on live game. I agree there is a certain level of if it candle handle this test than it should be able to handle game but that is all specualtion on our parts. Like I said I applaud your efforts and enjoy seeing the results and before someone comes in and says I am bashing this thread I donated one the heads he tested and never once questioned the results of that head.


----------



## sethro02

Thanks guys...the grizz out penetrating the standard if anything was the plywood inconsistency imo...i will measure them now..i just 2hink having that larger ferrule cracked or busted the wood out of the way more


----------



## sethro02

St standard and mag ferrule...3/16

St grizztrick....1/4


----------



## brokenlittleman

sethro02 said:


> St standard and mag ferrule...3/16
> 
> St grizztrick....1/4


Was the grizztrick the original or the second version?


----------



## sethro02

grizztrick 1 i think


----------



## brokenlittleman

Ok. I think I have a grizztrick 2 here that I can measure.


----------



## sethro02

yea i didnt get to shoot the grizz 2...


----------



## brokenlittleman

You shot it in round 7. 

Grizztrick 2 ferrule measures 3/16th.


----------



## sethro02

so grizz 1 has a bigger ferrule then grizz 2? thats interesting...i dont think that one would have out penetrated the mag or standard then...probably would have been about the same. maybe even less with those blades


----------



## sethro02

wonder why they changed ferrule size


----------



## elkman406

Its all interesting regardless. Thx!


----------



## sethro02

no problem


----------



## brokenlittleman

sethro02 said:


> wonder why they changed ferrule size


Smaller is usually better when it comes to penetration and arrow flight but that is purely a guess on my part. Only (slicktrick head honcho) the man himself can answer that question.


----------



## sethro02

yea but in this case (my penetration test) i'll stick with my bigger ferrule making more room theory....i still have it, may shoot it again at longer range.


----------



## sethro02

Ttt for viewing of updated scores


----------



## bambikiller

ya that guys a peace of work my friend i got banned for a week for dis agreeing with him, but hey he pays the bills so he doesnt get banned 


NTYMADATER said:


> It will never be a sticky because a certain supporting sponser of AT doesnt like ballistics gel. He starts a thread and never does answer any questions and then has it closed after the slick trick fanboys post a bunch of kill pics. I use slick tricks so don't accuse me of bashing but i would have liked to debate the ballistics gel issue. Bottom line its the most viable option that can be repeated with any consistency. His test was about penetration through not so ideal situation like shoulder hits and i think his test did a very good job. No test is perfect.
> 
> Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2


----------



## bambikiller

hey seth how did the rage digger do in the test i didnt see it in the spread sheet


----------



## sethro02

Hey man...havent shot the rage digger yet..its too,pretty to mess up! Do you guys want to see it shot?!


----------



## sethro02

Agreed bambikiller


----------



## bambikiller

yes sir lets see the devastation of the rage digger , man i want one of those to let fly outa my omen


sethro02 said:


> Hey man...havent shot the rage digger yet..its too,pretty to mess up! Do you guys want to see it shot?!


----------



## 0nepin

sethro02 said:


> Hey man...havent shot the rage digger yet..its too,pretty to mess up! Do you guys want to see it shot?!


If you shoot it I will send you new replacement blades.


----------



## IowaAssassin

That has to tip the scales towards "awesome." Shoot it, shoot it, shoot it! C'mon everyone, shoot it, shoot it! lol.


----------



## bambikiller

shoot it


----------



## sethro02

easy easy hang on.....first the unveiling of..........................








GRAVEDIGGER 2.5!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! SEE FRANKHEAD THREAD


----------



## sethro02

Wont be shot today...raining....wife leaves the country tomorrow....we all know what happend when she left last time! I shot stuff! A bunch of stuff!


----------



## IowaAssassin

:moviecorn


----------



## sethro02

may be a frankenhead showdown


----------



## public land

I have the coffee brewing for the showdown
IowaAssassin has the popcorn
Onepin has some ideas brewing 
Seth has the entertainment 
we R set ...


----------



## NoDeerInIowa

sethro02 said:


> Agreed goathollow...it should have been called slick trick kill thread in my opinion...nothing really came of the debate...alot of different broadheads killed animals...i think thunderheads have probably taken several animals


Yes, I have taken quite a few animals with thunderheads. I have never had an issue with penetration. But, as has been said before, there are a lot of other factors at play. Thanks for taking the time away from your family to do these tests.

Sent from my PC36100 using Tapatalk 2


----------



## sethro02

No problem...i need to make 1 batch of gel for each of those frankenheads!


----------



## TimmyZ7

Seth nice work on the latest Franken head! I would love to see them tested. I am working on making something sick myself and Onepin and I are also working on something that will cause massive trauma also.


----------



## sethro02

Nice! If I test them I will make a new thread for sure just to not clutter this one...is that the killzone thing your working on?


----------



## stkline81

I'm curious if you shot the 2012 Pro Series Ramcat or the 2011 model? They were supposed to make them a little stronger this year.


----------



## Fortyneck

brokenlittleman said:


> Smaller is usually better when it comes to penetration and arrow flight but that is purely a guess on my part. Only (slicktrick head honcho) the man himself can answer that question.





sethro02 said:


> yea but in this case (my penetration test) i'll stick with my bigger ferrule making more room theory....i still have it, may shoot it again at longer range.


I would think that more energy would be soaked up by the bigger ferrule busting a bigger hole leaving less energy for penetration, but I guess thats not what your test

showed. :noidea:

BTW the "done deal" looks straight medieval. :mg:


----------



## sethro02

I shot 2011...if they still make the blades similar I would think the tips would still curl a little on the test...
Fortyneck I see ur point for sure..i think maybe the way the board broke as well..kinda hard to say


----------



## J Whittington

Based on seths test results, I purchased the new Ulmer head. shot them, and POI exact same as my field points. hoyt vector turbo, gt22s, 2.5 feathers 339 ish fps


----------



## sethro02

Nice! Cant wait to see damage pics


----------



## stkline81

sethro02 said:


> I shot 2011...if they still make the blades similar I would think the tips would still curl a little on the test...


It's possible they may. I have both the 2011 & 2012. They made a lot of improvements on the 2012 model including beefing up the materials a bit! I can't wait to put one through a deer this fall!


----------



## 0nepin

The bigger ferrule act like the vap outsert .the fatter ferrule bust a bigger hole through the wood so the arrow does not drag. less friction more penetration ,simple.


----------



## duckman111

Have 2 antelope tags in my pocket, and my season opens tmorrow. gravediggers and ulmer edges in my quiver. going to start with the grave digger.Should we start a carnage thread or show our personel field tests here?


----------



## sethro02

We can start a "real deal" carnage thread!


----------



## PANockBuster

Looks like the leatherwood guys posted their broadhead test that was talked about earlier in this thread.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=msHgr7jH0jg


----------



## sethro02

Cant watch it all because im driving..are just shooting 1 piece of ply


----------



## 1Lee

The Ulmer Edge is looking better and better


----------



## IowaAssassin

Looks like really dense particle board.


----------



## Norwegian Woods

IowaAssassin said:


> Looks like really dense particle board.


Yes.
The 1/2" board would be a good test to see how a broad head manage a shoulder I guess.


----------



## sethro02

I guess ill have to watch it and see what they did


----------



## Fortyneck

They probably should've strapped the board down for consistency IMO.


----------



## sethro02

just watched it...i was hoping for like a step up from what i did...


----------



## tack09

I think that is the, hmmm how do I say this, poorest executed test I have seen yet. 3/4 mdf ? why not just shoot a steel beam? No consistency in how it is held in place. This doesn't make any sense to me. Wow Seth, What are the guys who criticized your test mediums gona say about this one.


----------



## pinski79

what's the point of testing a turkey head for penetration?


----------



## J Whittington

i cant do damage test till critter season begins. I think the ulmer edge is going to please a lot of hunters


----------



## sethro02

yea i'll plead the 5th on that test, it makes me feel a little better about what i've done over the last couple months.......if you guys are curious im putting first round frankenhead showdown up on the frankenhead forum


----------



## public land

What a sad test imo. They didn't support the target.
The board should have been rest height at full draw, to give each head an equal playing field. 
Then they continued to shoot as the board was at different angles ..


----------



## sethro02

yea kinda crazy...

frankenhead results...done deal vs. rage digger posted in frankenhead forum in the broadhead sections! crazy entry holes!!!!


----------



## 0nepin

That was a sad test, it looked like they hit the atom with the striker.


----------



## sethro02

big piece of board but awful aiming to stay away from the other heads...they shot from 10 yards


----------



## upserman

Check this out seth. Its like a broadhead at the tail end of your arrow. Interesting....

www.ravagenocks.com


----------



## sethro02

^^do you use these?


----------



## qmb9015

Honestly i have little faith in the ravage nocks its a nice idea but i personaly dont like the fact that its a one time use item i also see it has the pontetial to mess up the arrow


----------



## Norwegian Woods

public land said:


> What a sad test imo. They didn't support the target.
> The board should have been rest height at full draw, to give each head an equal playing field.
> Then they continued to shoot as the board was at different angles ..


I totally agree it was not a good test, but I think the dense 1/2" particle board they used in second round would be rather close to simulate a shoulder bone hit when testing broad heads. It might even be tougher than a deer shoulder bone.


----------



## corey006

PANockBuster said:


> Looks like the leatherwood guys posted their broadhead test that was talked about earlier in this thread.
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=msHgr7jH0jg


That is the most USELESS broadhead test I have ever seen....LOL:icon_1_lol:


----------



## corey006

upserman said:


> Check this out seth. Its like a broadhead at the tail end of your arrow. Interesting....
> 
> www.ravagenocks.com


:mg:.....that is the most ridiculous thing I have ever seen.


----------



## upserman

sethro02 said:


> ^^do you use these?


No just came across them and thought I would share. This year Im using the Gravediggers. Thanks to your testing.


----------



## sethro02

It just looks like too much to worry about! You have to find 2 arrows instead of one! 
Yea cant wait to let my gravedigger eat!


----------



## Sivart

I will def buy some ulmer edge heads when they come out w/ a larger cut diameter. I don't see wasting my 78lbs of KE on a 1.5" 2 blade head.


----------



## Norwegian Woods

Sivart said:


> I will def buy some ulmer edge heads when they come out w/ a larger cut diameter. I don't see wasting my 78lbs of KE on a 1.5" 2 blade head.


I agree.
I rather use my Slick Tricks than a 2 blade mech with less than 2" cut diameter with my 90 KE and 0.69 momentum.
The moment they offer a all steel 2" Ulmer Edge, I will order some


----------



## sethro02

So why arent you two shooting gravediggers? Fixed blade big expandable cut? Just curious..


----------



## Clark8907

Im curious as to how you are getting so much kinetic energy? I shoot and invasion at 70lbs with easton axis nfused arrows and im only getting 65-66.


----------



## Norwegian Woods

Clark8907 said:


> Im curious as to how you are getting so much kinetic energy? I shoot and invasion at 70lbs with easton axis nfused arrows and im only getting 65-66.


I am shooting a Bowtech Destroyer 340 at 70 lbs DW and 31" DL.
My arrow is 600 grain and measured speed is 260 fps.
The KE is 89.973 and the momentum is 0.6921 according to the calculator I use.
Another calculator says the KE is 90.09.

And *sethro02*. I do like how the Gravedigger look like, and I am sure it is a great broad head, but I must say that I like the concept of the Ulmer being rear deploying and with pivoting blades very much.


----------



## sethro02

ok cool...i just like to hear feedback from all of these newer heads. they are both awesome in their own way...i have seen pics of animals that have been either gut shot or shot far back with gravedigger and its amazing the damage they do internally on a not so perfect shot...pretty cool


----------



## Norwegian Woods

sethro02 said:


> ok cool...i just like to hear feedback from all of these newer heads. they are both awesome in their own way...i have seen pics of animals that have been either gut shot or shot far back with gravedigger and its amazing the damage they do internally on a not so perfect shot...pretty cool


I am more interested in how well a broad head does on a shoulder hit than a gut hit as I like to aim very close to the shoulder instead of aiming far behind it as many do because they are so scared of hitting it 
Specially because I am going on a walk and stalk plains game hunt with my bow in SA next year


----------



## Sivart

I ordered a gravedigger to test the flight. It flys like a fixed blade, not a mechanical. That's why I won't shoot one. Too much wind plane, and doesn't hit w/ my fieldpoints, with either of my bows, and they're both tuned.


----------



## Clark8907

Sivart said:


> I ordered a gravedigger to test the flight. It flys like a fixed blade, not a mechanical. That's why I won't shoot one. Too much wind plane, and doesn't hit w/ my fieldpoints, with either of my bows, and they're both tuned.


You still have got to do bh tuning and bring your fps and bhs together. Just because your mechanicals hit with your fps does not mean your bow is perfectly tuned.


----------



## sethro02

hmmm i think the shuttle t is most forgiving out of fixed blades and the gravedigger, imo, shoots just as good...but to each their own....whatever your most comfortable with.


----------



## Sivart

To me, "flys like a fieldpoint" means that the head should impact very close to fieldpoint groups especially downrage, in a reasonably tuned bow. By this, I mean a papertuned bow. Both mine shoot bulletholes at several distances.

Mechanicals shoot within inches of my fieldpoints out to 80 yds. I only post this because I don't want people to think that they can sight in their fieldpoints, and then screw on a gravedigger and go hunting. I am shooting 300 fps, so fixed blade tuning is harder to come by.

This is why I wish that Seth gave the mechanicals a higher score in flight on the test. Physics prove that the lower the profile, the better the flight.


----------



## eltaco

Sivart said:


> To me, "flys like a fieldpoint" means that the head should impact very close to fieldpoint groups especially downrage, in a reasonably tuned bow. By this, I mean a papertuned bow. Both mine shoot bulletholes at several distances.
> 
> Mechanicals shoot within inches of my fieldpoints out to 80 yds. I only post this because I don't want people to think that they can sight in their fieldpoints, and then screw on a gravedigger and go hunting. I am shooting 300 fps, so fixed blade tuning is harder to come by.
> 
> This is why I wish that Seth gave the mechanicals a higher score in flight on the test. Physics prove that the lower the profile, the better the flight.


I'm only shooting 284fps, so maybe the 16fps is flawing my opinion compared to your 300fps setup, but I can shoot any of my fixed blade heads with my fieldpoints to 80yds. As long as the broadhead is spinning true and your fletchings are doing their job, I don't agree that a fixed blade head is less accurate than a mechanical at any distance. Based on what I've seen out of perfectly tuned bows, rating flight the same for fixed and mechanicals is completely accurate. If your fixed aren't shooting with your fieldpoints, you're not tuned correctly and/or your spine is incorrect. JMO.

Physics don't prove the lower the profile the better the flight... where does this come from? I was on a 747 last month and it got me to my destination just fine.

I will agree that a fixed could lose some accuracy with high winds as compared to a mechanical, but in low wind or still conditions, I truly don't believe there's a difference in long-range accuracy.

Check this post out regarding fixed blade long range accuracy.
http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=1823744&highlight=solid+broadheads


----------



## sethro02

my only debate about that...and by the way im not at all being critical whatsoever...not frusterated not anything just talking..........i am not pointing out anybody...just making a statement in my opinion....when i shoot fixed heads compared to mechanicals....(this is based on true spinning arrow/ head combo) if my fixed heads dont group well..i know it's me. i hand torque every now and then and just the slightest will send some heads moving in one direction or the other....my bow is dead on but i have shot good groups, and bad groups with fixed heads but the moment i release, i know if it's me or not....hand torque for me anyways is a broadhead group killer....but given all things equal and you make a perfect release. i think fixed heads will group just as good if not better then most mechanicals because of the tight tolerances fixed heads are made with. just pointing out some of my experiences....tell us what mechanical head your going with and dont forget to post kill pics!


----------



## eltaco

sethro02 said:


> my only debate about that...and by the way im not at all being critical whatsoever...not frusterated not anything just talking..........i am not pointing out anybody...just making a statement in my opinion....when i shoot fixed heads compared to mechanicals....(this is based on true spinning arrow/ head combo) if my fixed heads dont group well..i know it's me. i hand torque every now and then and just the slightest will send some heads moving in one direction or the other....my bow is dead on but i have shot good groups, and bad groups with fixed heads but the moment i release, i know if it's me or not....hand torque for me anyways is a broadhead group killer....but given all things equal and you make a perfect release. i think fixed heads will group just as good if not better then most mechanicals because of the tight tolerances fixed heads are made with. just pointing out some of my experiences....tell us what mechanical head your going with and dont forget to post kill pics!


I agree with that. If you're hand torquing it, it will certainly have its affect.

I can shoot bare shafts with fieldpoints at 40yds... but if I hand torque it can be 3' off, too. That said, I think fletchings are the key to forgiveness, and if your fletchings aren't correcting minor form issues there might be better fletching options out there for you. I use a pretty wild helical and I think it's helped my BH accuracy quite a lot.


ROFL... there were more disclaimers in your post than a political ad


----------



## Mallardbreath

Norwegian Woods said:


> I am shooting a Bowtech Destroyer 340 at 70 lbs DW and 31" DL.
> My arrow is 600 grain and measured speed is 260 fps.
> The KE is 89.973 and the momentum is 0.6921 according to the calculator I use.
> Another calculator says the KE is 90.09.
> 
> And *sethro02*. I do like how the Gravedigger look like, and I am sure it is a great broad head, but I must say that I like the concept of the Ulmer being rear deploying and with pivoting blades very much.


I would love to see a guy with your amount of KE shoot a Buck Blaster. Talk about devastation!


----------



## sethro02

yeah my blazers are offset which is working well with basically anything i shoot....yes my posts have to have disclaimers otherwise i get pm's all day long about how im full of crap


----------



## k&j8

Shot my shuttle t's and ulmers a few weeks ago and they are right on with field points. Got my grave diggers this weekend and they are right there with field points as well. They all fly great. I'll probably have the grave digger batting lead off but don't think I can go wrong with any of these.


----------



## sethro02

Nice man....ive never been more excited for kill pics this season!


----------



## 4IDARCHER

sethro02, have you have a chance to test out the Vipertricks yet? I didn't see them on the spreadsheet?


----------



## sethro02

Vipertrick..#21


----------



## nolimitarchery

Sivart said:


> To me, "flys like a fieldpoint" means that the head should impact very close to fieldpoint groups especially downrage, in a reasonably tuned bow. By this, I mean a papertuned bow. Both mine shoot bulletholes at several distances.
> 
> Mechanicals shoot within inches of my fieldpoints out to 80 yds. I only post this because I don't want people to think that they can sight in their fieldpoints, and then screw on a gravedigger and go hunting. I am shooting 300 fps, so fixed blade tuning is harder to come by.
> 
> This is why I wish that Seth gave the mechanicals a higher score in flight on the test. Physics prove that the lower the profile, the better the flight.


Sivart,

I hope nobody sights there bow in with field points and then puts on any broadhead and goes hunting. You should always shoot it a couple of times before hunting. 

Flight has really never been an issue with the Grave Digger so if you could answer a couple of questions I might be able to solve your problem. I will give you my set-up so you can compare. I shoot a PSE EVO 6 at 71# 29" I shoot Victory VAP 300 spine at 416 grain 313 fps. To get the weight I ad a 14 grain brass rod behind the insert. It gives me a 11.96 % FOC. 

If you are right handed is your point of impact with the Grave Digger high and to the right? Say 2 oclock

What is the spine and FOC of your arrow?

I used to shoot a Bear Carnage with 400 spine Crush arrows with a lumenok and if I took the lumenok out the broadhead would fly high and to the left. (I'm a lefty)
By putting the extra 14 grians of weight in the back of the shaft (lumenok) it was enough to properly spine the arrow. I don't know if this is the problem but it could be.
Please let me know.

Thank you
Dale


----------



## C Svach

Im interested to see what the G5 Small Game Head would do. I know its not a broadhead but it sure isnt a blunt either. Somewhat of a hybrid with the sharpened inside of the blades. The ends get a little thin so maybe they would break or bend back at the plywood. I can tell you evey critter I have hit with these has been a complete pass through or decapitation since they are so sharp. Plus they look pretty cool.


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## sethro02

We may do a small head test in the future..ive never even bought a small game head


----------



## sethro02

hey guys i posted this in the gravedigger thread as well... you just have to believe me on the pics since my wife took video cam to peru....i thought i'd show long range gravedigger accuracy pics since its a hot topic...the first pic is 3 field point group....the second pic is 2 gravediggers........all these shots were from 50 yards exactly. 


field points, 50 yards












gravediggers, 50 yards


----------



## bginvestor

huntin4Christ said:


> I would be interested in seeing a swhacker. I have been thinking about trying them.



I am such a sucker for good marketing sometimes. I saw the Swhacker infomercial and the website has them for buy one , get one free, so I ordered them..$40 for 6 TYD.

I will test them and see what happens. My number one goal in a broadhead is good flight, sharpness second. The only thing I don't like about Swhacker is it doesn't make a big entrance hole because the blades open inside the body. But they are selling it as an advantage since the blades are guarantee sharp even going through bone! Rear deploying blades can get messed up before entering the internal cavity to do the damage.


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## sethro02

schwakers didnt fair so well in this test....sharpness was ok but the whole ferrule collapsed! that was just on 3/8" ply...if you hit shoulder dead on with that thing im assuming it would do the same. let us know how they do


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## Bones816

I'm confused...2 Bohning Blazers and an Easton ????
By the way, you are one hell of a shot.


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## sethro02

thats factory fletched,,,i bought a dozen and that's how they came....i hate the cresting but if im grouping this well i'll just wait until i damage the vanes then i'll get the cresting off......thanks.


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## Bones816

Oh, I get it. They're all Blazers, they just put an Easton logo on the cock vane because they're Easton arrows. I think they look really good.


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## sethro02

yeah me like $90 for six they should shoot themselves though


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## 0nepin

Hey Seth ,you know you have not shot the actual rage extreme yet.it might be the highest scoring Rage sofar bbecause of the blades are more swept back.if you want me to will send one with the replacement blades for the rage digger?let's get thread over 200 views , your so close.


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## sethro02

sure whatever you want to do man...sending your raging ulmers in the mail tomorrow


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## 0nepin

sethro02 said:


> sure whatever you want to do man...sending your raging ulmers in the mail tomorrow


Do you need a new leading blade or just the rear deploring ?


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## sethro02

just rear deploying...the ferrule is holding up too!


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## 0nepin

sethro02 said:


> just rear deploying...the ferrule is holding up too!


They will be in the mail tomarrow.


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## duckman111

well tried to create an album and show some ulmer edge carnage on an antelope doe. 52 yds. complete pass through the entrance wound was wicked.about knocked her off her feet. next test will hopefully be a mule deer buck sept. 1 for some reason they wouldnt upload.was going to try the gravedigger first but the wind was howling figured the slim headed ulmer was a better choice.


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## sethro02

Can u upload pics to tinypic.com? Then just copy and paste the link for forums


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## 0nepin

Extreme on the way with blades for the rage digger and a g5 small game for testing or that annoying rodent ,I alway keep one I my quiver and they are the only head I have shot that are louder than a slicktrick.


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## duckman111

pretty mean entry







exit


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## 0nepin

duckman111 said:


> pretty mean entry


Dang ,that awesome!!!!!!!!


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## duckman111

Thats what i thought .really must of stretched the skin on impact.


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## 0nepin

0nepin said:


> Hey Seth ,you know you have not shot the actual rage extreme yet.it might be the highest scoring Rage sofar bbecause of the blades are more swept back.if you want me to will send one with the replacement blades for the rage digger?let's get thread over 200 views , your so close.


Haha dang codeine ,200,000 views.Somebody should send in a rage 40ke and a rage 3blade for testing ,you could have a rage only test,heck it not like you have not tested every slicktrick.


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## bambikiller

Sivart said:


> I ordered a gravedigger to test the flight. It flys like a fixed blade, not a mechanical. That's why I won't shoot one. Too much wind plane, and doesn't hit w/ my fieldpoints, with either of my bows, and they're both tuned.


If they don't fly out of ur now the. Ur now isn't tuned it's as simple as that...


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## elkman406

..or he's torquing the bow...or his arrows aren't true...or he has contact...or his bow is out of whack (or any combination there of)


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## Viper69

Yeah want to see the Rage extreme test. I had the blades bend on me in my block target.


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## sethro02

Man that ulmer damage is awesome! Did it passthru opposite aide shoulder?


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## TimmyZ7

Imagine what the 2" Ulmer is going to do??? Hey Seth, how about some of those Grave Digger holes you were talking about, any pics???


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## sethro02

Honestly guys im out of plywood..almost out of vinyl..arrows are junk...so thats kinda why this testing is wrapped up...i may be able to squeeze one more head in....onepin I used those epics for frankenhead test if thats cool


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## sethro02

I think their on my computer timmy..not home but ill look as soon as I get back


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## Sivart

I think the gravedigger is a great head. Very well made. I'm sure that with some tweaking, I could get it to fly very well. I may need some more FOC.


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## corey006

I hope Trophy Taker makes a 125gr All Steel Ulmer Edge with 2" cut......PLEASE.......!

:tongue:


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## Viper69

corey006 said:


> I hope Trophy Taker makes a 125gr All Steel Ulmer Edge with 2" cut......PLEASE.......!
> 
> :tongue:


Im down with that!


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## sethro02

i dont know if rusty is still following the thread but im sure he is working on that request


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## nolimitarchery

TimmyZ7 said:


> Imagine what the 2" Ulmer is going to do??? Hey Seth, how about some of those Grave Digger holes you were talking about, any pics???


Here are 2 pics 1 is the Antelope hunt I was just on and the other from a Deer. The Antelope was 40 yards broadside. The shot was low because he thought it was going to drop, 1 inch lower and it is a clean miss. Both are entrance holes.


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## sethro02

thats bigger than a t3 chunk


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## duckman111

sethro02 said:


> Man that ulmer damage is awesome! Did it passthru opposite aide shoulder?


 didnt hit the shoulder bone broke a rib on entry and chipped ribs on exit.


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## duckman111

still planning on giving those gravediggers a try.. one antelope and one deer tag to fill then sept.15 its 4 day elk hunt.


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## sethro02

Yes use one. I wann& see gravedigger carnage


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## corey006

sethro02 said:


> i dont know if rusty is still following the thread but im sure he is working on that request


I would actually like to see about a 145 gr. Ulmer Edge with 2.25" cut....for some added FOC....maybe a crossbow head....or longer ferrule with some small bleeder blades behind the chisel tip....


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## Norwegian Woods

corey006 said:


> I hope Trophy Taker makes a 125gr All Steel Ulmer Edge with 2" cut......PLEASE.......!
> 
> :tongue:


Totally agree, but I wouldn't mind at all if it became heavier than 125 grain as long as it would be all steel with a 2" cutting diameter.
I am not scared of a bit heavy broad heads and arrows


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## Goatboy

Been making two inch cuts with the Edges daddy for almost 20 years with my Rocky Mountain Gators. I'm sure glad Trophy Taker is making the edge, its the gator with a couple more great features!
Bought a couple packs of Ulmer Edges, mechanicaly they are almost identical to the gator! The locking blades and being sharp on the back side are two things I've always wanted. And the screw to keep the blades in for practice was a great idea that works slick!









Gator peeking thru the off side shoulder.









Gator pulled from the offside shoulder.









Gator and a quartering shot and they never went far.


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## sethro02

nice pics man


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## 0nepin

sethro02 said:


> Honestly guys im out of plywood..almost out of vinyl..arrows are junk...so thats kinda why this testing is wrapped up...i may be able to squeeze one more head in....onepin I used those epics for frankenhead test if thats cool


If you can only do one head I would do the rage extreme,it the newest head out that alot of are buying.And it will be your first test with a shock coller equipped head.


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## TimmyZ7

0nepin said:


> if you can only do one head i would do the rage extreme,it the newest head out that alot of are buying.and it will be your first test with a shock coller equipped head.


x2!


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## sethro02

ok...you talked me into it...i'll get gel ready...


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## duckman111

NICE PICS GOATBOY , never heard of the gator or alot of these heads till seths thread. it has been very informative.Ever use those gators on elk?


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## Viper69

sethro02 said:


> ok...you talked me into it...i'll get gel ready...


Cool!


----------



## Hustle

nolimitarchery said:


> Here are 2 pics 1 is the Antelope hunt I was just on and the other from a Deer. The Antelope was 40 yards broadside. The shot was low because he thought it was going to drop, 1 inch lower and it is a clean miss. Both are entrance holes.
> 
> View attachment 1443833
> View attachment 1443837



Are these with the ulmer edge


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## sethro02

That is with gravedigger


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## HAPPY DAD

Def want to see the rage extreme


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## sethro02

Rage extreme will definately be the last head...onepin did you say your sending one of these?


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## FirstFreedom

I wonder if any of those can punch a hole in 2 steel frying pans, surviving without damage, like the Red Feather Phoenix can?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TKclM-pxdaU&feature=related

 

http://www.redfeatherarchery.com/products/broadhead/item/phoenix

I'd like to see some hardcore tests of these really good heads - Phoenix, VPA Terminator, Simmons (various), Ashby, Big Jim, Nanook, Wensel Woodsman Elite, Magnus Snuffer SS, VPA Penetrator.


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## markman

Viper69 said:


> Im down with that!


I want it in 100gr!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## sethro02

i'd like to test those as well trust me but their are some expensive heads in that lineup....the hunor broadheads had a video of their's going through steel...it didnt go through my test though...i'll blame that on my arrow going 270 fps with only 70lbs of ke though


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## Norwegian Woods

sethro02 said:


> i'd like to test those as well trust me but their are some expensive heads in that lineup....the hunor broadheads had a video of their's going through steel...it didnt go through my test though...i'll blame that on my arrow going 270 fps with only 70lbs of ke though


I am taking that hunor video with a grain or a couple of buckets of salt 

Lots of nice shooting and good animals there *goatboy*.
Well done


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## 0nepin

sethro02 said:


> Rage extreme will definately be the last head...onepin did you say your sending one of these?


Already in the mail and headed your way also the replacement blades for the rage digger and a g5 small game head.


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## sethro02

cant wait man....LAST HEAD TESTED!!!!! Rage Extreme!!!


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## 0nepin

sethro02 said:


> cant wait man....LAST HEAD TESTED!!!!! Rage Extreme!!!


Can't wait to see if the shock caller decrease the size of the entry hole.


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## sethro02

yea its gonna be interesting...im surprised throughout this whole test not alot of talk on the rage


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## 0nepin

sethro02 said:


> yea its gonna be interesting...im surprised throughout this whole test not alot of talk on the rage


Maybe the titanium extreme took some of the focus off the real extreme ?


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## sethro02

i dont know,,,or maybe just me and you look at this thread only


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## TimmyZ7

It's called denial. Even with bent blade ends it still cut a larger hole and finished with a larger diameter then a lot of other heads but many will pretend they didn't see that.:wink:


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## sethro02

haha yea. they didnt break and none of the ferrules were bent


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## 0nepin

TimmyZ7 said:


> It's called denial. Even with bent blade ends it still cut a larger hole and finished with a larger diameter then a lot of other heads but many will pretend they didn't see that.:wink:


Maybe I should repost the enry hole pic of ray charles and the slicktrick agian,haha .


----------



## 0nepin

sethro02 said:


> titanium extreme
> View attachment 1413194


Haha


----------



## 0nepin

sethro02 said:


> slick trick standard
> View attachment 1416307


Isn't it so cute.Haha thats such a small hole for a deer whistle .


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## sethro02

oh man, that may get oldhootowl on here again


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## eltaco

Why anyone needs a 2" blade and 80# draw for deer hunting is beyond me. That slick trick might be small, but it'll kill an elk every time with a well placed shot. Ragging on it isn't going to change that fact... like it or not.

I really don't have anything against mechanicals, either, but IMO the larger cut only helps if you would have missed the vitals by 1/2" with a fixed head. I haven't looked at the results lately, but I don't remember seeing many mechanicals near the top in penetration, which to me is more important for elk hunting.


----------



## Windrover

Your version may be more practical for a deer hunter, but less so for an elk or moose hunter. Penetration past 10"" is certainly important to me. For a moose hunter buried to the fletch is minimum.


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## Norwegian Woods

TimmyZ7 said:


> It's called denial. Even with bent blade ends it still cut a larger hole and finished with a larger diameter then a lot of other heads but many will pretend they didn't see that.:wink:


First I want to see how it does when shot out from a more punishing setup 

As I have said before, I really think the rage blades are to flimsy. But I don't mind being proven wrong regarding that or anything else. 
There is a huge difference between the setup *sethro02* has used in this test and what many of us use, so it would be nice to see how many of the broad heads do from a heavier setup.


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## sethro02

You guys may have to use some weight tubes for awhile until those comeout!

Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk 2


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## Windrover

Seth you are the man. Thanks for all the hard work. 
I am amazed that not once in your thread did the Name Dr. Ashby come up. Its about time that someone got started on the broadhead testing for American game. For those of us who hunt larger game (moose) Dr. Ashby is the guru. Unfortunately his huge study is only about large animals, so info regarding deer is sparse. Again congrats on the hard work. Your spreadsheet is gonna get worked over good. 

Okay now were do I buy some phatheads? And those Ulmers. Wow


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## sethro02

thanks man....also didnt ashby just test fixed heads from the 90's? steelforce.com for the phatheads...they are also sold at bass pro shops...the ulmer's are an impressive mechancial...i bought mine from gander mountain


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## humanflashbang

Way cool. Took forever to go through, but worth it. Thanks dude


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## sethro02

no problem...I'm testing the rage extreme and a couple of helix heads then calling it quits


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## bambikiller

what are you going to do with all your free time


sethro02 said:


> no problem...I'm testing the rage extreme and a couple of helix heads then calling it quits


----------



## sethro02

well right now shooting my bow and drinking beer...after the test is actually done and over with i'll move on to some diy projects for on here as well as thinking of other real deal tests that people will find interesting and useful...and deer hunt...that starts soon


----------



## 0nepin

Really? I don't understand why people think you should use the minimum that will work.why I shoot 80lb plus,because I can super easy and I hold steadier with more weight .why 2" well it's more like 2.5",any way because a very big hole in the right spot kills alot faster and it make recovery easier than a small hole ,pretty darn simple.I have killed alot of deer with fast and light arrows ,heavy and slow arrow and I prefer heavy and fast,it works the best for me.as the local area blood tracker I have spent many hours on blood trails with my dog and I think I got this figured out.


eltaco said:


> Why anyone needs a 2" blade and 80# draw for deer hunting is beyond me. That slick trick might be small, but it'll kill an elk every time with a well placed shot. Ragging on it isn't going to change that fact... like it or not.
> 
> I really don't have anything against mechanicals, either, but IMO the larger cut only helps if you would have missed the vitals by 1/2" with a fixed head. I haven't looked at the results lately, but I don't remember seeing many mechanicals near the top in penetration, which to me is more important for elk hunting.


----------



## bambikiller

agreed


0nepin said:


> Really? I don't understand why people think you should use the minimum that will work.why I shoot 80lb plus,because I can super easy and I hold steadier with more weight .why 2" well it's more like 2.5",any way because a very big hole in the right spot kills alot faster and it make recovery easier than a small hole ,pretty darn simple.I have killed alot of deer with fast and light arrows ,heavy and slow arrow and I prefer heavy and fast,it works the best for me.as the local area blood tracker I have spent many hours on blood trails with my dog and I think I got this figured out.


----------



## sethro02

hunting is definately a game of inches or less...a small fixed blade just missing lungs and going through liver, or a broadhead that will have a bigger cut clips the lungs while going through the liver.....that would be a 2 day tracking job vs. 150 yard tracking job, this is an example,,,and also IIIIIMMMMMMMOOOOOOO. not trying to start anything just trying to ease in the discussion and staying unbiased.


----------



## 0nepin

sethro02 said:


> well right now shooting my bow and drinking beer...after the test is actually done and over with i'll move on to some diy projects for on here as well as thinking of other real deal tests that people will find interesting and useful...and deer hunt...that starts soon


I don't know If you can find a consistence way to test this but what I have notice when I'm broadhead tuning with fixed heads if I torque the bow slightly my shots are farther off than if I do the same with mech heads .and when we are hunting it's pretty common for us to not be in the best position to shoot with perfect form.accuracy is #1 and if I shot a lower ke setup the ulmer edge would be my #1 choice.


----------



## TimmyZ7

0nepin said:


> Really? I don't understand why people think you should use the minimum that will work.why I shoot 80lb plus,because I can super easy and I hold steadier with more weight .why 2" well it's more like 2.5",any way because a very big hole in the right spot kills alot faster and it make recovery easier than a small hole ,pretty darn simple.I have killed alot of deer with fast and light arrows ,heavy and slow arrow and I prefer heavy and fast,it works the best for me.as the local area blood tracker I have spent many hours on blood trails with my dog and I think I got this figured out.


Agreed. A field point beat them all but we aren't hunting with one because more cutting means more bleeding.


----------



## sethro02

onepin when i shoot fixed heads i also have "flyers" because of hand torque...some fixed heads i feel are more forgiving...what sucks is i'm shooting a non forgiving bow,,,dont get me wrong its forgiving for a short brace height but not as forgiving as my bear truth 1 i had back in the day! i've basically shot all of these heads from 50 yards that i've tested and their are definately more forgiving fixed heads..imo.


----------



## sethro02

i try to use the biggest broadhead to start off with when tuning...then i go smaller and smaller and that seems to dial it in.


----------



## 0nepin

I'm going to predict a perfect 35 for the helix and 29 for the rage extreme.Can't wait two both of these wound channels.


----------



## sethro02

you think the helix will bust through opposite side? i'm still thinking of prediction for the helix


----------



## 0nepin

sethro02 said:


> you think the helix will bust through opposite side? i'm still thinking of prediction for the helix


I think so.I just hope is come real sharp and if does I think it will get a 35.


----------



## Viper69

0nepin said:


> I'm going to predict a perfect 35 for the helix and 29 for the rage extreme.Can't wait two both of these wound channels.


I predict the Extremes wont do well with durability though.


----------



## sethro02

When I make predictions some think I rig testing for some reason but anyways I predict a 33 out of 35 for helix (8" of penetration)....also I predict a 8" on penetration for extreme


----------



## Bones816

RIGGED! RIGGED! Yeah, right. Thanks again Seth.


----------



## 206Moose

I no longer think fixed heads are better than mechanicals but I also don't think mechanicals are better than fixed. What I do believe is that certain heads work better for certain set ups. I think seths test proved that lower KE setups perform better with fixed heads I also think you could prove higher KE setups perform better with mechs. But where do you draw the line between low and high KE? I still think 80 KE is the minimum to fully utilize a mech. that is what I think it would take to push a mech through both shoulders. It has been my experience that alot of guys using mechs don't shoot enough KE to compensate for a bad shot. Then you have the ulmer edge anomaly. I think the swivel blades could be the secret to its success. Anyway this has been an interesting thread.


----------



## sethro02

Good point..what is low ke...my setup for test was roughly 70lbs ke..never thiught of it as low but you may be right about 80 lbs to blow thru consistantly


----------



## Michael Myers

Hows the Testin been goin?I Have been away,Fishing and Hanging Stands since Tuesday night....What did i miss?Grizz


----------



## 206Moose

sethro02 said:


> Good point..what is low ke...my setup for test was roughly 70lbs ke..never thiught of it as low but you may be right about 80 lbs to blow thru consistantly


Have you decided on your next test? I'm still voting for grains per pound test.


----------



## sethro02

grizz i think you just missed one test because i'm trying to wrap it up...i'm getting a rage extreme to test as well as a couple helix heads.


grains per pound test as in light medium heavy arrows shot?


----------



## 206Moose

grains per pound of draw weight. 5,6,7,8, grains per pound from 50 to 80 pounds. Would be a pretty hard test to do. It could get bigger than the broadhead test.


----------



## Michael Myers

sethro02 said:


> grizz i think you just missed one test because i'm trying to wrap it up...i'm getting a rage extreme to test as well as a couple helix heads.
> 
> 
> grains per pound test as in light medium heavy arrows shot?


Nice,I have my Gravediggers shootin lights out at 55 Yards,Was gonna use the 5th pin at 60 but i aint shootin past 50 and prolly 40 for deer,I am impressed with them,I Had to glue a Practice head 3 times this week but i probably fired 300 arrows with it.I Cant wait till Bear opens(2nd week of Sept),Our Baits are getting destroyed,And 4 of us put in for doe tags and we all got a doe tag this year.I Seen the biggest Buck i have ever seen in person Thursday night 14 Pts and a Monster,Easily 235 Lbs,Too bad he is not near where i hunt,Lol.I Was thinking of Picking up some Rage and Steelforce but am thinkin i am gonna stay with Gravediggers only,Grizz


----------



## sethro02

grizz those gravediggers are gonna be good for anything! sounds like you may be busy this hunting season.

yes that test may take quite a while....plus i would have to buy 70lb limbs for my bow...i was gonna do that anyways so maybe that will happen...


----------



## 206Moose

sethro02 said:


> grizz those gravediggers are gonna be good for anything! sounds like you may be busy this hunting season.
> 
> yes that test may take quite a while....plus i would have to buy 70lb limbs for my bow...i was gonna do that anyways so maybe that will happen...


I would also do 5.5, 6.5 and 7.5 grains per pound. If you did 50,60,70, and 80 pounds that would be 28 different arrow combinations you would have to build. Good Luck


----------



## Michael Myers

sethro02 said:


> grizz those gravediggers are gonna be good for anything! sounds like you may be busy this hunting season.
> 
> yes that test may take quite a while....plus i would have to buy 70lb limbs for my bow...i was gonna do that anyways so maybe that will happen...


Ya,i was looking at buying 70 Lbs limbs for the Axe,I Put it on my Weight Scale,Fully Tightened down,64 Lbs,I Figured 62 lbs,I am impressed,Dont think i need 70 Lbs right now,Thinkin of gettin a Evo 6 with 70 Lbs limbs.....Just waitin for the new bows to come out so i can pick one up dirt cheap on here.And yes i will be busy this fall,Just got a Great Offer to Go back and Work in B.c,Working in a Huge Archery shop,Gotta get in touch with the guy on M,onday,He called when i was away,I am pumped,If he holds it until January,I aint goin out west until after christmas..Grizz


----------



## 0nepin

Hahaha man you got it figured out now.we are now on the same page.


NTYMADATER said:


> I no longer think fixed heads are better than mechanicals but I also don't think mechanicals are better than fixed. What I do believe is that certain heads work better for certain set ups. I think seths test proved that lower KE setups perform better with fixed heads I also think you could prove higher KE setups perform better with mechs. But where do you draw the line between low and high KE? I still think 80 KE is the minimum to fully utilize a mech. that is what I think it would take to push a mech through both shoulders. It has been my experience that alot of guys using mechs don't shoot enough KE to compensate for a bad shot. Then you have the ulmer edge anomaly. I think the swivel blades could be the secret to its success. Anyway this has been an interesting thread.


----------



## sethro02

Team blood trail huh? does getting into that club have anything to do with what type of broadhead you shoot, lol!


----------



## sethro02

is the slogan gonna be "i sliced it in half with my PSE" if so i'll join


----------



## Michael Myers

sethro02 said:


> is the slogan gonna be "i sliced it in half with my PSE" if so i'll join


I Like this one...Do you believe i am still getting bashed and stalked for what i had to Say on the Slick trick thread?I Never ever bashed the head,Some guys.I Wonder who changes there diaper and puts there Soother in for them at night?Glad,i will be in the Bush from Sept 1st till Dec 31st,A Few guys make it non enjoyable to be on here...This is By far the Best thread on here for Info and Hints since i joined,And all in all its great fun,Cheers,Grizz


----------



## sethro02

oldhootowl closed that thread...funny thing is i was the last to post! victory!!!


----------



## 0nepin

sethro02 said:


> Team blood trail huh? does getting into that club have anything to do with what type of broadhead you shoot, lol!


Haha it's the name of the team I'm on in league play.it's first time I have joined and don't even know how the point system works yet.should be fun .


----------



## sethro02

haha hope they have good back stops for your setup


----------



## TimmyZ7

NTYMADATER said:


> I no longer think fixed heads are better than mechanicals but I also don't think mechanicals are better than fixed. What I do believe is that certain heads work better for certain set ups. I think seths test proved that lower KE setups perform better with fixed heads I also think you could prove higher KE setups perform better with mechs. But where do you draw the line between low and high KE? I still think 80 KE is the minimum to fully utilize a mech. that is what I think it would take to push a mech through both shoulders. It has been my experience that alot of guys using mechs don't shoot enough KE to compensate for a bad shot. Then you have the ulmer edge anomaly. I think the swivel blades could be the secret to its success. Anyway this has been an interesting thread.


I appreciate your becoming open minded. I think you will see that with a mech matched right to the operator and rig can really deliver, even in the worst case scenario. I agree also that too many guys shoot what they shouldn't banking only on broadside shots through the vitals.


----------



## Michael Myers

sethro02 said:


> oldhootowl closed that thread...funny thing is i was the last to post! victory!!!


I Was thinking of adding somethin in my Sig just to Prove a Point but not sure if i Should...Lol...If ya cant take the heat get ya azz outta the Kitchen,Eh....I Have turned 3 Guys onto Grave diggers,Turned my Dad way from Slick trick cause of what was said and Turned 2 Buddies away from Other heads,Now just gotta convince them to Buy Some Grave diggers,I am super pumped to hunt with them,The other guy,My dad's best buddy,Well they have been bow huntin over 30 Years told me he has shot the same head for 15 years(Muzzy) and is changing to a Gravedigger or Grim Reaper.We will see...


----------



## TimmyZ7

Seth, Onepin, wait until you see what Breathn is doing to my Evo! Let's just say 84lbs Evo XL 33.75 ax to ax. I will be shooting the Vap .250's and as for broadheads I always shoot my mechs with at least one fixed in the quiver. I am definitely wanting to see the Helix and have been looking at it for a while. This will be my first season Raging it out and thanks to Onepin Rage digging as well.


----------



## sethro02

Nice timmy cant wait..ive been keeping an eye out for heavier limbs in camo


----------



## TimmyZ7

I have the skull works limbs that are coming off my bow that max out at 70.4lbs. I am putting all black ones on a skullworks riser. I don't know what your looking for in particular but if anything interests you let me know.


----------



## sethro02

Yes!!!! How much?! Pm me


----------



## sethro02

pm returned timmy


----------



## corey006

Dan Evan's video?

125gr S.S Ulmer Edge....ME want....with 2" cut!


----------



## 0nepin

TimmyZ7 said:


> Seth, Onepin, wait until you see what Breathn is doing to my Evo! Let's just say 84lbs Evo XL 33.75 ax to ax. I will be shooting the Vap .250's and as for broadheads I always shoot my mechs with at least one fixed in the quiver. I am definitely wanting to see the Helix and have been looking at it for a while. This will be my first season Raging it out and thanks to Onepin Rage digging as well.


That's going to be bad arce.what's the IBO and BH?The omen rizer evo cammed bow that he built for me is 33.85 ata 5.75Bh at 85.4lb and 30" it will shoot a 430gr arrow at 356fps.Love my vap's .


----------



## TimmyZ7

0nepin said:


> That's going to be bad arce.what's the IBO and BH?


5 5/8" BH and 365-367 IBO

I gave him the go ahead and the bow is my Evo and he is doing it without Omen cams. Breathn's the man!


----------



## 206Moose

TimmyZ7 said:


> I have the skull works limbs that are coming off my bow that max out at 70.4lbs. I am putting all black ones on a skullworks riser. I don't know what your looking for in particular but if anything interests you let me know.


Not trying to hijack but I just recently purchased a hydrograhic printing business "dipping". PM if you want more info I'll have an ad on AT after archery season. don't want to get bogged down during season LOL


----------



## TimmyZ7

NTYMADATER said:


> Not trying to hijack but I just recently purchased a hydrograhic printing business "dipping". PM if you want more info I'll have an ad on AT after archery season. don't want to get bogged down during season LOL


I may want my tightspot quiver in skullworks I will keep you in mind thanks.


----------



## 206Moose

TimmyZ7 said:


> I appreciate your becoming open minded. I think you will see that with a mech matched right to the operator and rig can really deliver, even in the worst case scenario. I agree also that too many guys shoot what they shouldn't banking only on broadside shots through the vitals.


If I could shoot speed bows with what I consider accurate MOA 1" for every 10 yards I would shoot one. I owned a 70lb. Omen and I just couldn't shoot it that well plus I have a tendency to draw early and I couldn't hold that Omen back that long without creeping and we all know what happens when you creep with an Omen. For my type of hunting I rarely shoot over 20 yards so speed really isn't an issue so I went back to slow, heavy, and quite of course some would call my setup light.


----------



## TimmyZ7

Seth when is the Helix going to battle with the extreme? I really want to see these two heads perform!


----------



## Hibernat'n Arch

*Grim Reaper?*

Is this the Grim Reaper?


----------



## sethro02

jason sent me the extreme...should be in early in the week...then mr. strickland from helix contacted me yesterday so im assuming i'll get those later next week....so hopefully middle of next week.


----------



## sethro02

Mail call...rage extreme is here! Jason ur package was soaked in pb blaster! My house smells so bad!

Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk 2


----------



## Hibernat'n Arch

I think I have found the broadhead I am going to use. It so sick, its awesome and 100% American made. Before this I liked Rocket Steelheads and then I found this on Facebook.


----------



## 0nepin

sethro02 said:


> Mail call...rage extreme is here! Jason ur package was soaked in pb blaster! My house smells so bad!
> 
> Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk 2


Sorry about that,it's wd40.did the zipp lock bag get cut?


----------



## 0nepin

Hibernat'n Arch said:


> I think I have found the broadhead I am going to use. It so sick, its awesome and 100% American made. Before this I liked Rocket Steelheads and then I found this on Facebook.


Nice bow and arrow combo.what broadhead ?


----------



## Norwegian Woods

TimmyZ7 said:


> 5 5/8" BH and 365-367 IBO
> 
> I gave him the go ahead and the bow is my Evo and he is doing it without Omen cams. Breathn's the man!


Talking about heavier bow and just a bit hijacking:tongue:
I am looking at buying the Bowtech Insanity CPXL with 80 limbs and I will have 32" DL. Any idea what speed and KE I will get with that?


----------



## 0nepin

Norwegian Woods said:


> Talking about heavier bow and just a bit hijacking:tongue:
> I am looking at buying the Bowtech Insanity CPXL with 80 limbs and I will have 32" DL. Any idea what speed and KE I will get with that?


So where around alot,lol


----------



## 0nepin

TimmyZ7 said:


> 5 5/8" BH and 365-367 IBO
> 
> I gave him the go ahead and the bow is my Evo and he is doing it without Omen cams. Breathn's the man!


Hf cams?


----------



## Hibernat'n Arch

Grim Reaper, It's on GR's Facebook' site.

Sent from my SCH-I500 using Tapatalk 2


----------



## sethro02

Can ur setup handle a big expandable? That was a picture perfect shot.

Timmy my bow is gonna look sick!!! Im goin with black riser. Skulls camo limbs..flo green strings


----------



## 0nepin

sethro02 said:


> Can ur setup handle a big expandable? That was a picture perfect shot.
> 
> Timmy my bow is gonna look sick!!! Im goin with black riser. Skulls camo limbs..flo green strings


That is going to be sick!!! Are you and Timmyz7 doing this now? With the season this close.


----------



## sethro02

No im getting his limbs but wont set it up til next year after this season


----------



## 0nepin

sethro02 said:


> No im getting his limbs but wont set it up til next year after this season


What do you think of the shock coller on the rage extreme?


----------



## Viper69

0nepin said:


> What do you think of the shock coller on the rage extreme?


I think they are nice. I wish they fit the 125 grain chisels...


----------



## Tracker12

I like the looks Ulmer Edge heads but I am still not sure I like the way the blades swivel. It seems that when the blade moves it will reduce the size of the cut. It shure looked like it did that in the video.


----------



## lotalota

Based on this thread I bought some Ulmer Edge's and gave them a try today. Good news: They shot like my field points. Bad news, one of them broke shooting into a Rinehart 18-1 (I did have the set screws in for practice, and blades inclosed). One of the little tabs broke right off on the 2nd shot. It didn't hit any of the other arrows in its pass to the target.

Specs: Ross 334 at with 28" draw at 64 lbs that chronys at 256 fps. OnTarget2! calculates a KE of 56.62, 12.82 F.O.C, 6.086 Grs/LB, and 0.00053817842 Drag. Beman ICS 400's, 28.5" with Blazer vanes and Blazer nocks.

Here's a shot of the broken head (rubber band came off too):








I was really happy with the accuracy--I was even a bit more accurate at 20, 30, and 40 yards than my field points. I numbered and shot the same arrows with FP's and UE's for consistency. I put a call into Trophy Taker to ask about the broken tab. I don't think it should have broken.

I still think I will hunt with them. I'm not sure how much effective range I will have with my 56 KE but feel that I should be good out to 30.


----------



## sethro02

i'd maybe be contacting dan at trophy taker...do it soon since elk season is starting up...those shouldnt break like that...imo.

jason, havent had time to even open the zip lock bag...wife got back into the country so i had to go to airport...i'll give it a look in a little. while..cant wait to shoot it


----------



## sethro02

ive learned on this website that rhinehart targets are kinda tough on certain broadheads, are they that dense?


----------



## lotalota

Seth,

I left a voice mail with the pro shop at Trophy Taker and I hope they call back. Not sure about the toughness of a Rinehart 18-1 vs. any other target. I bought it because it was tough, and shot the bejeesus out of it with Slick Tricks last year. I had one good side left, which I used for this test.


----------



## 0nepin

sethro02 said:


> ive learned on this website that rhinehart targets are kinda tough on certain broadheads, are they that dense?


Yea that does seem happen alot more with rhineharts than other target .


----------



## sethro02

If they dont respond let me know. Ill get ahold of dan or rusty


----------



## lotalota

Here's photos of my 20 yard test:








And here 30 yards (yes, one bad shot on the 30 field point photo ):


----------



## bginvestor

A received the Swhackers yesterday. I like the design, but I could not get them to spin straight. The combination of the bh tolerances and the goldtip insert tolerances, the bh was very very loose when screwing them on..

I can screw a rage and get a perfect spin with the same arrow that is impossible with the swhackers. I believe the longer shank helps a lot! Check out the pic. However, it's interesting.. I can screw on a grim reaper and get a perfect spin as well, but the shank is the same size as the swhackers! I believe it's the preloaded collar that helps align..

I tried this experiment with several other goldtip arrows and got the SAME results. Prefect spin with rage and grim reapers, but not with the swhackers. Bummer.


----------



## sethro02

Some mechanicals arent built with tight tolerances...the schwaker I tested spun true..then I destroyed the ferrule in the test


----------



## bginvestor

Seth, what arrow / insert you use again?


----------



## 0nepin

bginvestor said:


> Seth, what arrow / insert you use again?


I'm pretty sure he is hunting this season with Easton carbon injexion 330 with vap outserts.


----------



## sethro02

Yea onepins right...the 43 grain outsert...they are holding up just fine too! Penetrate like crazy...next year ill be flinging them at avout 280fps...they weigh 463 grains


----------



## corey006

lotalota said:


> Based on this thread I bought some Ulmer Edge's and gave them a try today. Good news: They shot like my field points. Bad news, one of them broke shooting into a Rinehart 18-1 (I did have the set screws in for practice, and blades inclosed). One of the little tabs broke right off on the 2nd shot. It didn't hit any of the other arrows in its pass to the target.
> 
> Specs: Ross 334 at with 28" draw at 64 lbs that chronys at 256 fps. OnTarget2! calculates a KE of 56.62, 12.82 F.O.C, 6.086 Grs/LB, and 0.00053817842 Drag. Beman ICS 400's, 28.5" with Blazer vanes and Blazer nocks.
> 
> Here's a shot of the broken head (rubber band came off too):
> View attachment 1446273
> 
> 
> I was really happy with the accuracy--I was even a bit more accurate at 20, 30, and 40 yards than my field points. I numbered and shot the same arrows with FP's and UE's for consistency. I put a call into Trophy Taker to ask about the broken tab. I don't think it should have broken.
> 
> I still think I will hunt with them. I'm not sure how much effective range I will have with my 56 KE but feel that I should be good out to 30.



Thats a shame. Especially* if* it happened from just foam from 18-1.

Had same thing happen to Swhacker 125gr. but on a Moose rib, had shot them into 18-1 multiple times.

I am pretty sure it is a freak occurrence but why take a risk?

Tough to trust these broadheads for Elk or Moose.:no:



I am not sure where they get their steel from(Swhacker too) but there is a possibility in order to save costs they are using cheaper or recycled steel?


P.S


At 56 KE I would be going with a 3 blade broadhead that penetrates well...


----------



## sethro02

Hey jason just checked over extreme...i dont see how the shock collar is much better than the oring? I feel like if you put extreme blades on any rage with the oring it would work fine...am I missing something?


----------



## lotalota

corey006 said:


> Thats a shame. Especially* if* it happened from just foam from 18-1.
> 
> I am not sure where they get their steel from(Swhacker too) but there is a possibility in order to save costs they are using cheaper or recycled steel?
> 
> 
> P.S
> 
> 
> At 56 KE I would be going with a 3 blade broadhead that penetrates well...


It was just foam. I looked close and didn't see any evidence of the head touching anything but foam.

As for the KE I'm not sure if the UE is entirely right for me. Where I hunt the shots are 90% 20y and less. But I like the accuracy confidence the Ulmers give me. I never had that in years past. Even still, I'll put 2 arrows with Slick Trick Mags in my quiver in case I have a crisis of confidence.


----------



## 0nepin

sethro02 said:


> Hey jason just checked over extreme...i dont see how the shock collar is much better than the oring? I feel like if you put extreme blades on any rage with the oring it would work fine...am I missing something?


The collar make it extremely hard for the blades to pop open by accident ,witch is fine but I don't think you will get as big an entry hole as you do with the oring ,I could be wrong.


----------



## HAPPY DAD

The extreme has single bevel edge, collar and bigger cut

I have been told the extreme blades on original ferrules don't have the swept back angle.

I would rather have the extreme blades on my ti ferrule but need the swept back blade angle at 74 lbs of ke.

Or just stick with the 2" cut of the original bldes


----------



## sethro02

Yea their a little tougher to open...i just feel maybe these new rage heads arent a huge upgrade...if I was a diehard rage guy I would put extreme blades on titanium rage. The chisel rage did the same as original ra in testing so im anxious to see in the field results with those


----------



## 0nepin

sethro02 said:


> Yea their a little tougher to open...i just feel maybe these new rage heads arent a huge upgrade...if I was a diehard rage guy I would put extreme blades on titanium rage. The chisel rage did the same as original ra in testing so im anxious to see in the field results with those


Are you saying I'm a diehard rage guy?lol


----------



## 0nepin

HAPPY DAD said:


> The extreme has single bevel edge, collar and bigger cut
> 
> I have been told the extreme blades on original ferrules don't have the swept back angle.
> 
> I would rather have the extreme blades on my ti ferrule but need the swept back blade angle at 74 lbs of ke.
> 
> Or just stick with the 2" cut of the original bldes


With your setup I think putting the turkey blades in the titanium ferrules would be perfect.


----------



## HAPPY DAD

0nepin said:


> With your setup I think putting the turkey blades in the titanium ferrules would be perfect.


What will that cut be with turkey blades


----------



## TimmyZ7

0nepin said:


> Are you saying I'm a diehard rage guy?lol


I think Crankn101 still has you beat bro. Once Ghost1 starts following up your every post then you have the title of #1 Rage fanboy, lol. Ask Shelby.


----------



## TimmyZ7

Wow, almost 200,000 views! 

Seth, your bow is going to look great. I would suggest you look into some of Yeti's grips to match your theme. He made mine and they are pure quality.


----------



## sethro02

Haha no offense to rage guys...one pin why the wd40 man!

Yeti grips?


----------



## 0nepin

HAPPY DAD said:


> What will that cut be with turkey blades


2.37"


----------



## 0nepin

sethro02 said:


> Haha no offense to rage guys...one pin why the wd40 man!
> 
> Yeti grips?


Wd40 or any oil helps the blades keep the edge.


----------



## 206Moose

corey006 said:


> Thats a shame. Especially* if* it happened from just foam from 18-1.
> 
> Had same thing happen to Swhacker 125gr. but on a Moose rib, had shot them into 18-1 multiple times.
> 
> I am pretty sure it is a freak occurrence but why take a risk?
> 
> Tough to trust these broadheads for Elk or Moose.:no:
> 
> 
> 
> I am not sure where they get their steel from(Swhacker too) but there is a possibility in order to save costs they are using cheaper or recycled steel?
> 
> 
> P.S
> 
> 
> At 56 KE I would be going with a 3 blade broadhead that penetrates well...


I agree 56 KE is low for an expandable. Cut on contact fixed would work better for you. IMO

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2


----------



## 0nepin

NTYMADATER said:


> I agree 56 KE is low for an expandable. Cut on contact fixed would work better for you. IMO
> 
> Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2


I think would be fine with the ulmer edge.


----------



## Rothhar1

0nepin said:


> I think would be fine with the ulmer edge.


I think anything below 60 Ke should stay with fixed foer best results and better penitration


----------



## sethro02

Yea id agree ulmer would be fine...although dales daughter shoots 40 lb lb bow with gravediggers..maybe since it doesnt expand on impact it requires a little less ke..plus its coc


----------



## 0nepin

Shouldernuke! said:


> I think anything below 60 Ke should stay with fixed foer best results and better penitration


Every test I have seen sofar the ulmer edge has out penetrated every fixed head.


----------



## Rothhar1

0nepin said:


> Every test I have seen sofar the ulmer edge has out penetrated every fixed head.


I understand that but its still just my opinion that low ke is still better served with a lower profile like 1 inch cut fixed with a slightly heavier arrow than the normal.at some point one should not test the accepted norms on game with a less than beefy bow and arrow setup.


----------



## lotalota

Shouldernuke! said:


> I think anything below 60 Ke should stay with fixed foer best results and better penitration


Thanks for the comments. I Googled around a bit and found several places online that recommended 60 lbs KE minimum for mechanical.

But I still want to shoot the Ulmer Edge, even though I have 4 ft/lbs less than the minimum. I've had a personal rule of only shooting 20 yard or less broadside shots. (For city hunts where wounded deer running through back yards is a no-no).

I was considering extending this rule to 30 yards as I am very confident in my accuracy with this head. But I don't know how to calculate the downrange energy that is needed.

What do you think? Assuming a good vitals shot, at what distance am I likely to run out of the right amount of umph?

Perhaps next year I'll buy a new bow that gives me more KE. But I have what I have, and want to take high quality shots.


----------



## 0nepin

Shouldernuke! said:


> I understand that but its still just my opinion that low ke is still better served with a lower profile like 1 inch cut fixed with a slightly heavier arrow than the normal.at some point one should not test the accepted norms on game with a less than beefy bow and arrow setup.


I think heads like the ulmer and grave digger really change the way I view low ke setups.my son is shooting a 50lb chaos and he gets much better penatration with his grave diggers and ulmer than he does with slicktrick standards.it really show at 40yrds


----------



## HAPPY DAD

0nepin said:


> I think heads like the ulmer and grave digger really change the way I view low ke setups.my son is shooting a 50lb chaos and he gets much better penatration with his grave diggers and ulmer than he does with slicktrick standards.it really show at 40yrds



Its not surprising to me. It all has to do with surface area and how much drag is created.

I like to think of a racecar in the wind tunnel, surface area=drag.


----------



## sethro02

Lotalot..i think your worrying a little too much on downrange...where you will see a bigger differance is when your pushing 40/50/60 yards..thats when,alot of variables come into play..you say 30 is your max I think you should just fine with the heads you have mentioned..imo


----------



## 206Moose

lotalota said:


> Thanks for the comments. I Googled around a bit and found several places online that recommended 60 lbs KE minimum for mechanical.
> 
> But I still want to shoot the Ulmer Edge, even though I have 4 ft/lbs less than the minimum. I've had a personal rule of only shooting 20 yard or less broadside shots. (For city hunts where wounded deer running through back yards is a no-no).
> 
> I was considering extending this rule to 30 yards as I am very confident in my accuracy with this head. But I don't know how to calculate the downrange energy that is needed.
> 
> What do you think? Assuming a good vitals shot, at what distance am I likely to run out of the right amount of umph?
> 
> Perhaps next year I'll buy a new bow that gives me more KE. But I have what I have, and want to take high quality shots.


You could always add weight to your arrow to get more KE since 20 yards is your max speed isn't an issue

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2


----------



## 206Moose

0nepin said:


> I think heads like the ulmer and grave digger really change the way I view low ke setups.my son is shooting a 50lb chaos and he gets much better penatration with his grave diggers and ulmer than he does with slicktrick standards.it really show at 40yrds


Into a target? 

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2


----------



## sethro02

lotalot....please post your setup again if you havent already

sidenote...i need a new target and i'm now scared to get a rhinehart...i think i will stick with buying cheapy foam target every year


----------



## seiowabow

sethro02 said:


> oldhootowl closed that thread...funny thing is i was the last to post! victory!!!


Yes he owns a successful broadhead company, I'm sure he is crushed

Sent from my DROID4 using Tapatalk 2


----------



## lotalota

sethro02 said:


> lotalot....please post your setup again if you havent already
> 
> sidenote...i need a new target and i'm now scared to get a rhinehart...i think i will stick with buying cheapy foam target every year


Set up for shooting was just 20, 30, and 40 yards into a Rinehart 18-1. New numbered arrows and I switched out 100 grain field points with 100 grain Ulmer Edges (3 fp's, and 3 UE's)
Bow: Ross CR334, 64#, 28" draw, 256 fps with a 389.5 grain 28.5" Beman ICS Hunter 400 with Blazer fletchings and nocks.


----------



## lotalota

NTYMADATER said:


> You could always add weight to your arrow to get more KE since 20 yards is your max speed isn't an issue
> 
> Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2


Well, I was going to get some new arrows for the season. Would you recommend I go to a heavier arrow? I don't suppose adding arrow wraps would do much.

I don't really want to re-sight and change the tape on my single pin sight. Just because I've been shooting so well at 3D lately and kind of feel like I'm in the groove. In my 3D league last week my buddy told me he'd buy me a beer if I shot the 25 yard turkey in the head. Ok, I said, and promptly did. Beer for me!


----------



## 0nepin

NTYMADATER said:


> Into a target?
> 
> Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2


Privacy fence!!! Jk yes glendel buck and block black.


----------



## bambikiller

and pushes into every thread his head doesnt come out on top...man you slick trick loyalist need a life


seiowabow said:


> Yes he owns a successful broadhead company, I'm sure he is crushed
> 
> Sent from my DROID4 using Tapatalk 2


----------



## seiowabow

And you 4" mechanical, 120# PSE shooters need a reality check
I still can't figure out how I have managed to kill any deer
Sent from my DROID4 using Tapatalk 2


----------



## bambikiller

would that be the fact you can fit four slick tricks into one of those mechanical holes??? ok reality checked thanks for that buddy


seiowabow said:


> And you 4" mechanical, 120# PSE shooters need a reality check
> 
> Sent from my DROID4 using Tapatalk 2


----------



## seiowabow

Until you hit a shoulder bone ******

Sent from my DROID4 using Tapatalk 2


----------



## bambikiller

ok back on topic ....and shoulders dont stand a chance with over 100 ft lbs...i say good day to you sir ...good day


----------



## seiowabow

Thats why the ulmer broke on a fricking foam target....

Sent from my DROID4 using Tapatalk 2


----------



## 0nepin

seiowabow said:


> Thats why the ulmer broke on a fricking foam target....
> 
> Sent from my DROID4 using Tapatalk 2


I have broke a few slicktricks in my glendale buck,why dont you pm oldcootowl and ask him about that.Or you just use the search function .


----------



## 0nepin

seiowabow said:


> Until you hit a shoulder bone ******
> 
> Sent from my DROID4 using Tapatalk 2


HAHA that what I say to shoulder bones.


----------



## seiowabow

0nepin said:


> I have broke a few slicktricks in my glendale buck,why dont you pm oldcootowl and ask him about that.Or you just use the search function .


Right....pretty believable that you broke a fixed blade shooting one of the crappiest targets made. I just shot grizztricks, shuttle t's, and muzzys into my rinehart tonight and nothing broke?

Sent from my DROID4 using Tapatalk 2


----------



## Porkrind

Just bought a Rinehart and love it.


----------



## Norwegian Woods

bambikiller said:


> ok back on topic ....and shoulders dont stand a chance with over 100 ft lbs...i say good day to you sir ...good day


The fact is that very few shoot 100 KE or more.
And very few should shoot large cutting franken heads.

*Onepin* and some others can, but most bow hunters should stay far away from them.

To your question *lotalota*.
I think you will do fine with your set up with the Ulmer Edge. 
Being a 2 blade 1.5" cut and rear deploying, it doesn't create much drag and should penetrate well with your set up out to 30 yards.

Personally I like heavy arrows, and am willing to sacrifice a bit of trajectory for a less noisy bow and a better penetrating arrow.


----------



## sethro02

Lotalot....i dont think your going to gain much by a heavier arrow with the speed your already getting....i think you may start to lose energy if you go heavier..that is if your fps is correct.

Seiowabow...i was sarcastic about oldhootowl comment. Ive never got personal with any negative comments on here. Sorry if you thought I was serious.

The broken ulmer has to be a freak accident..not trying to make excuses but please try to get ahold of them..let me know if you need help with that

Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk 2


----------



## sethro02

Lotalot..if you dont have chrono go to backcountrybowhunting and use the speed/ke archery calculator...i like heavier arrows to but if you play around on that calculator you can see what I mean about having too heavy of an arrow..your ke will actually go down because your bow cant shoot it efficiantly. Pm me if you need help

Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk 2


----------



## roughneck1

sethro02 said:


> Lotalot..if you dont have chrono go to backcountrybowhunting and use the speed/ke archery calculator...i like heavier arrows to but if you play around on that calculator you can see what I mean about having too heavy of an arrow..your ke will actually go down because your bow cant shoot it efficiantly. Pm me if you need help
> 
> Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk 2


Correct. I found this as well. But your *momentum* will always go up with a heavier arrow. Which is more important.


----------



## 206Moose

lotalota said:


> Well, I was going to get some new arrows for the season. Would you recommend I go to a heavier arrow? I don't suppose adding arrow wraps would do much.
> 
> I don't really want to re-sight and change the tape on my single pin sight. Just because I've been shooting so well at 3D lately and kind of feel like I'm in the groove. In my 3D league last week my buddy told me he'd buy me a beer if I shot the 25 yard turkey in the head. Ok, I said, and promptly did. Beer for me!


I wouldn't change a thing confidence in a setup is huge good luck hunting 

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2


----------



## 206Moose

0nepin said:


> Privacy fence!!! Jk yes glendel buck and block black.


Can you tell if the ulmer edge blades stay straight or do they pivot to one side? Not trying to argue just trying to understand. 

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2


----------



## sethro02

I agree with the momentum but I would want him to have more energy at impact as well..their is always a fine line when getting into ke/momebtum


----------



## Porkrind

I saw these and immediately thought of Onepin and the others who can shoot big broadheads. http://www.lancasterarchery.com/slayer-trauma-3-blade-150-gr-broadheads.html


----------



## Viper69

Wow those are nasty!


----------



## Porkrind

3 blade 3" cut. Better have one heck of a setup.


----------



## sethro02

Please dont ask to test those! That would eat up one full thing of gel!

Update...still have rage extreme..waiting on helix heads..if I dont get helix heads tomorrow I will go ahead and test rage extreme tues evening or wednesday

Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk 2


----------



## Porkrind

Yeah I wouldn't ask that of u however Slayer broadheads might with ur celebrity status now lol.


----------



## sethro02

haha...i dont know about celebrity status but i have about 15 to 20 pm's a day about wanting advice on their setups...its pretty cool to be able to help people...i'll check out the slayer's


----------



## sethro02

their website has been saying coming soon for awhile now


----------



## sethro02

they are all on backorder?!


----------



## Porkrind

I seen. Lancasters has them shipping 9-12 I believe. Oh yeah definitely celebrity.200'000 people know who u r.


----------



## sethro02

haha i gave me email out at like page 30...i really got busy with messages then...i'll have to start another good test here pretty soon.


----------



## 0nepin

Porkrind said:


> I saw these and immediately thought of Onepin and the others who can shoot big broadheads. http://www.lancasterarchery.com/slayer-trauma-3-blade-150-gr-broadheads.html


I'm very confused with the slayer's ,it say it cuts a 3" wound channel but in the spec it say it has a 2" cutting diameter .it weird that they are shipping on my b day 9/21 but I really don't care for over the top mech heads.


----------



## sethro02

Yea im not much for over the tops but I think they look cool. Onepin the gel is curing..bought mire plywood today!


----------



## Porkrind

Lol. Didn't even notice the diameter on those. I forgot about u liking rear deploying. I shot the gators last year and I'm on edge of whether or not I like them. Thinking about striker Magnums or possibly spitfire scorpion pros.


----------



## 0nepin

Porkrind said:


> Lol. Didn't even notice the diameter on those. I forgot about u liking rear deploying. I shot the gators last year and I'm on edge of whether or not I like them. Thinking about striker Magnums or possibly spitfire scorpion pros.


Yea and I think 150gr would give me spine issue as well.


----------



## 0nepin

sethro02 said:


> Yea im not much for over the tops but I think they look cool. Onepin the gel is curing..bought mire plywood today!


Sounds awesome .Im really looking forward to the helix.


----------



## Norwegian Woods

0nepin said:


> I'm very confused with the slayer's ,it say it cuts a 3" wound channel but in the spec it say it has a 2" cutting diameter .it weird that they are shipping on my b day 9/21 but I really don't care for over the top mech heads.


I think it is a mess up on the lancasterarchery site.
The Slayer as 3 different types.

Flatliner with 1.5" cut
Psycho with 2" cut
Trauma with 3" cut.

And I agree with you concerning over the top mechs.


----------



## Porkrind

Okay I've gotta ask because i've personally never shot an over the top mech before. What are the major concerns with them seeing as i've been looking into the scorpion pro's?


----------



## TimmyZ7

I prefer rear deploy these days also but there are some good over the top heads still out there that I keep in the quiver. I can't wait to see some Extreme Helix action!!! The extreme ferrule is slimmed down and has the shock collars so it is different then the traditional Rage...but will it fully deploy on impact is what I want to see. I wouldn't want to give up the huge entry holes. There is something about the single bevel twist of the helix that has me intrigued.


----------



## sethro02

i cant speak for onepin, but my major concern for over the top's is if it takes a head on blunt force strike to hard bone, i have two hunting buddies that shoot over the top's, spitfires and grimreapers...i'm not going to derail this thread so i'll just say they both have good and bad stories with their heads (like most all broadheads).


----------



## sethro02

i wonder if this contraption is even big enough for the single bevel heads to come into play? i think after that first blow on the first medium it's gonna lose it's spinning like all the other heads...but i could be way wrong.


----------



## Viper69

0nepin said:


> I'm very confused with the slayer's ,it say it cuts a 3" wound channel but in the spec it say it has a 2" cutting diameter .it weird that they are shipping on my b day 9/21 but I really don't care for over the top mech heads.


I noticed that as well...


----------



## sethro02

i wonder why their website is down?


----------



## Norwegian Woods

sethro02 said:


> i wonder why their website is down?


Their website has been down for a long time now, but I saw in a post that a Slayer Broadhead rep should attend something at a sports shop August 25.

http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=1825804


----------



## sethro02

Oh ok..id test one if they sent me one

Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk 2


----------



## Porkrind

interesting concept. Kinda reminds me of a 3 blade schwacker but with a 7/8" 3 blade when closed.


----------



## HAPPY DAD

Ready for the rage extreme test PLEASE


----------



## sethro02

Rage extreme will be tonight after son's football practice!!!!!!


----------



## sethro02

Tonights lineup!!!!!!!!!!
1. Rage extreme
2. Helix 100grain
3. Helix 125 grain (unofficial)


----------



## sethro02

Correction...125 grain will not be shot! It is deep six head..have to purchase another injection and install the insert!


----------



## sethro02

so what is actually being tested tonight is :
1. rage extreme
2. 100 grain Helix

both of these heads will be officially in the testing..I will need a few days to go buy an injection to build for the deep six Helix 125 grain.


----------



## HAPPY DAD

sethro02 said:


> so what is actually being tested tonight is :
> 1. Rage extreme
> 2. 100 grain helix
> 
> both of these heads will be officially in the testing..i will need a few days to go buy an injection to build for the deep six helix 125 grain.



werd!


----------



## sethro02

after handling this helix i think it may give the phathead a run for it's money in this test for sure


----------



## TimmyZ7

Let em eat Seth and show us their appetite for gel!! I am excited for this one.


----------



## sethro02

Yea this may be a good one to wrap up with...i have 1 arrow left..lets hope it works out tonight...that helix main blade is .062"! Pretty tough looking for sure


----------



## goathollow

sethro02 said:


> after handling this helix i think it may give the phathead a run for it's money in this test for sure


Noooooooo; I can't handle any more choices; my head is going to explode....especially at $52.95 per pack!!!

But I will be checking back later....just out of curiousity :wink:


----------



## sethro02

Haha....yea later tonight we will see...possible passthrough?!


----------



## goathollow

Well....if I were you I would make sure the backstop is in place or have some drywall repair material handy! If you were shooting the 125 I'd almost make odds on it clearing the contraption. But we'll see. I will be very interested in seeing how the single bevel, 3 (including the tonto tip) angle blade does. If my limited knowlege of physics and the laws of "simple machines" is correct, that broadhead should penetrate well.


----------



## Viper69

Yeah the helix looks pretty cool.


----------



## sethro02

Yea I need to build a shaft for the 125...im anxious to get home...aaron I have backstop ready!


----------



## Viper69

I just did some testing with the 125 grain Rage Chisels. I shot them through 1/4" plywood. Busted through really well and zero damage. I also shot the plywood at a sharp angle and had no troubles. I was pleased with this. I did these same tests with the extremes but both the blades bent.


----------



## sethro02

HERE WE GO! ROUND 12 COMBO:

1. Rage Extreme 2 Blade
2. Helix Standard 100

place your bets


----------



## TimmyZ7

Extreme will have the larger cut the helix will out penetrate. I would love to see you pour dye into wound channels. I want to see that twist and compare the rage entrance diameter to its exit diameter.


----------



## sethro02

Rage Extreme 2 Blade Test Results:
2.3" cut diameter, 4" total cut surface

penetration- 7
durability- 0 FAIL!!!!
dependability- 3 (opened up almost all the way on entry, but one blade was broke 2 inches into the gel)
sharp before- 5
sharp after- 4
flight- 5
total score- 24 out of 35 ( total penetration, 7")

Surprised on this outcome ( the durability)

Rage Extreme


----------



## sethro02

rage extreme entry
Notice the slit that is slightly smaller, that is from the blade that was bent back, the larger slit is from the blade that broke right after first medium.


----------



## sethro02

rage extreme gel entry


----------



## sethro02

rage extreme gel entry 2


----------



## sethro02

rage extreme gel exit


----------



## Porkrind

Whew. That is still big.


----------



## sethro02

Helix 100 standard test results:
1 1/8" cutting diameter, 3" total cut surface (2 blade)

penetration- 9
durability- 5
dependability- 5
sharp before- 5
sharp after- 4
flight- 5
total score- 33 out of 35 (total penetration, 9")

This head may bring up some discussion on penetration.

helix 100


----------



## sethro02

helix 100 entry


----------



## sethro02

helix 100 gel


----------



## sethro02

helix 100 exit


----------



## bambikiller

based on the pics looks like the helix continued to turn in the gel ..prolly slowing penetration


----------



## sethro02

just fyi about the HELIX 100:

2 blade single bevel head.
the bevel is 40 degrees
aluminum ferrule, steel blade
blade is .062" thick


----------



## goathollow

Well kiss my grits; I expected far more penetration from the Helix. On the bright side, I dont have to choose between the Helix and the Phathead!


----------



## sethro02

so i poured soy sauce down the wound channel of the HELIX 100 (soy sauce is all i had, im not chinese) and the Helix spun 1/2 turn in the gel


----------



## sethro02

my prediction was wrong,,,still a great head and a great score....visit strickland archery for helix broadheads.


----------



## sethro02

did i just prove dr.ashby wrong?!..........just kidding!!!!


----------



## Whitey375

How thick is your gelatin block?


----------



## goathollow

sethro02 said:


> did i just prove dr.ashby wrong?!..........just kidding!!!!


Blaspheme!!!


----------



## sethro02

The gel is roughly 6.5" thick so after configuring a little more..it went almost a full turn toal from entry to exit


----------



## Whitey375

Interesting, I got only a half turn in 17", but that was straight gelatin, from 8' away..
Must be the hard medium initiating the rotation.


----------



## sethro02

I would agree..not enough friction in gel to make it act like a screw...so how how would it do in lungs and organs then?


----------



## Whitey375

sethro02 said:


> I would agree..not enough friction in gel to make it act like a screw...so how how would it do in lungs and organs then?


Probably just fine, the big plus to single bevel heads is splitting bone, not necessarily tissue damage. However, if it split bone, (ie hard medium), on the way in, then you're going to see more rotation like you had.


----------



## 0nepin

The helix did very well.


----------



## 0nepin

sethro02 said:


> rage extreme entry
> Notice the slit that is slightly smaller, that is from the blade that was bent back, the larger slit is from the blade that broke right after first medium.
> View attachment 1449782


Does not look like it opened as even as the fanken heads did.


----------



## 0nepin

sethro02 said:


> titanium extreme
> View attachment 1413194


I like the cut from ray Charles better than the extreme .


----------



## 0nepin

I'm very impressed with the helix.should work great on hogs.


----------



## sethro02

Yea that helix is super quiet like the shuttle t...im sure its good at splittling bone...their are a couple in this test I would consider bone splitters...onepin which head gets ur first kill?

Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk 2


----------



## Viper69

sethro02 said:


> Rage Extreme 2 Blade Test Results:
> 2.3" cut diameter, 4" total cut surface
> 
> penetration- 7
> durability- 0 FAIL!!!!
> dependability- 3 (opened up almost all the way on entry, but one blade was broke 2 inches into the gel)
> sharp before- 5
> sharp after- 4
> flight- 5
> total score- 24 out of 35 ( total penetration, 7")
> 
> Surprised on this outcome ( the durability)
> 
> Rage Extreme
> View attachment 1449765


Im not surprised at all. Thats exactly what I found. Those long blades are very weak IMO.


----------



## 0nepin

sethro02 said:


> Yea that helix is super quiet like the shuttle t...im sure its good at splittling bone...their are a couple in this test I would consider bone splitters...onepin which head gets ur first kill?
> 
> Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk 2


The bow that always up to bat first is my 07 xforce hf 6 and it's dialed in with vap 300 With 100gr tips so it's either going to be the chisel extreme ,raging ulmer ,ray Charles ,or Supercreech .it might be the Supercreech because it was the my first franken head.


----------



## Fortyneck

sethro02 said:


> did i just prove dr.ashby wrong?!..........just kidding!!!!


Why does he shoot rage? Lol!


----------



## Top Dog Rick

0nepin said:


> I'm very confused with the slayer's ,it say it cuts a 3" wound channel but in the spec it say it has a 2" cutting diameter .it weird that they are shipping on my b day 9/21 but I really don't care for over the top mech heads.


They have 3 different lines . Flatliner , ??? , Trauma 
► 1:04► 1:04
www.youtube.com/watch?v=j7KLnbCQzMs


----------



## sethro02

Haha...so you dont have it narrowed down onepin! Looking forward to your blood trails....

The last head im shooting is the helix 125 deep six


----------



## 0nepin

sethro02 said:


> Haha...so you dont have it narrowed down onepin! Looking forward to your blood trails....
> 
> The last head im shooting is the helix 125 deep six


All of the heads fly the same except for the rage digger because it's 124gr .I have the evil omen tune with 509gr fmj and the rage digger it will be up after the 07 hf 6 eats.I already have seven bows and I just bought the omen pro with hf cams from 
Cuttingedge but he's going to put 80lb limb on befor he ships it to me.every bows has to eat I just have to match them up with appropriate broadhead for there performance.the guardian and derenalin im going to shoot shuttle ts.


----------



## Nikonman

PM'd you with a question.
Thanks
Nikonman


----------



## sethro02

Sweet this year is operation slice your animal in half..i wish done deal would have flew better! I could kill and field dress the deer in one shot!


----------



## 0nepin

sethro02 said:


> Sweet this year is operation slice your animal in half..i wish done deal would have flew better! I could kill and field dress the deer in one shot!


No dout a bout it.


----------



## pinski79

0nepin said:


> the omen pro with hf cams from
> Cuttingedge.


:drool:


----------



## sethro02

Onepin I have a ragedigger in my quiver for my coyote/sasquatch head


----------



## TimmyZ7

I am right there with you Onepin. The chisel extreme is going to chisel a cave out of the some ribs very soon. I love a quartering shots with a large cut head. AT will have to add a carnage room that's rated R because it's getting real in the whitetail woods this season.


----------



## sethro02

haha..i have a feeling their will be more people posting kills this year (me included), im videotaping the blood trailing, the shot, the walk up, everything....


----------



## Michael Myers

Ya,I am goin with Gravediggers this Fall,Was gonna try a Few others but ,Why bother when the Gravediggers shoot Perfect for me to 55 Yards...I am gonna be filing all of my Hunts this Fall,Hopefully it's a Great Fall hunting season.Grizz


----------



## Viper69

TimmyZ7 said:


> I am right there with you Onepin. The chisel extreme is going to chisel a cave out of the some ribs very soon. I love a quartering shots with a large cut head. AT will have to add a carnage room that's rated R because it's getting real in the whitetail woods this season.


I hope so except Im sticking to the 2" cut. They held up great in my tests...


----------



## 0nepin

TimmyZ7 said:


> I am right there with you Onepin. The chisel extreme is going to chisel a cave out of the some ribs very soon. I love a quartering shots with a large cut head. AT will have to add a carnage room that's rated R because it's getting real in the whitetail woods this season.


With the massive two blades they might have to have a rated xxx section .I showed the pic of the ray Charles Entry hole from Seth test to one of the local pro shop owner and he said he hasnt seen a slanted slit that big since veitnam .lol


----------



## sethro02

I may throw in a couple 125 heads on the vap shaft I have just to see what happens since im done with testing...i have a vap vented and non vented 125


----------



## eltaco

Seth, received the Solid you sent me. Noticed this thing will still hang up on my fingernail. I think it deserves a FL recount in the sharp after department... LOL!


----------



## sethro02

Yea I was on the fence about it...i think it for sure deserved a 4.5! Sorry...that thing is awesome though


----------



## eltaco

sethro02 said:


> Yea I was on the fence about it...i think it for sure deserved a 4.5! Sorry...that thing is awesome though


No offense taken by me! I would like to see that VPA next to it after testing both though!

Either way, I plan on sending one through a bull in a few days!


----------



## sethro02

Yea they are both awesome but the vpa was without a doubt the sharpest...good luck this year...please post kill pics


----------



## sethro02

Ttt for any discussions on any heads tested


----------



## sethro02

Besides fixed blades out penetrating mechanicals did anything else stand out in the test for some of you?


----------



## 0nepin

The only head the suprized me and might be the best head for people that shoot bows under 60lb ke is the ulmer edge.and let's not forget about the grave digger a true hybrid with coc with a very unique way of deploring the rear blades,it has outstanding penatration for the amount of carnage it does.I think I have decided my son is going to hunt with the helix,should work well for his setup.


----------



## 0nepin

sethro02 said:


> Besides fixed blades out penetrating mechanicals did anything else stand out in the test for some of you?


Yea and the out did the mech in the little hole department aswell.


----------



## iwantone2.4

whats next for testing? Sorry if ive missed it.


----------



## pinski79

0nepin said:


> Yea and the out did the mech in the little hole department aswell.


:set1_rolf2:


----------



## 206Moose

sethro02 said:


> Besides fixed blades out penetrating mechanicals did anything else stand out in the test for some of you?


Could you tell if the ulmer cut the full 1.5" through the gel or did it swivel to one side? 

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2


----------



## sethro02

For testing ill prob throw in some 125 heads on slim arrow like vap or injexion for fun....

The ulmer cut through the gel but on exit medium one side was more deplyed than the other so yea it swiveled on exit


----------



## sethro02

Like most of you I didnt know about gravediggers as wellbut after testing them and after shooting them a ton these last 2 months I honestly think it is one of the best..obviously we will find out in a couple of months but just the way it works and ease of deployment makes it a head for virtually everybody...imo...their were alot of good standard fixed heads..im surprised alot of muzzy guys didnt speak up


----------



## Porkrind

Trufire T1 doesn't get much talk but I have been very impressed with what that head did.


----------



## sethro02

Yea that head did great actually...their mechanical isnt to durable


----------



## Porkrind

Yeah that switchblade looks like junk.


----------



## Porkrind

Wish the T1 had a bigger cut though. Kinda why I'm lookin at the striker magnums.


----------



## sethro02

Yea I think they are 1 1/16th....are shuttle t's to small for youas well?


----------



## Porkrind

They aren't to small but I do want to try something a little larger.


----------



## sethro02

I got some hunor broadheads for you then! Biggest fixed heads ive seen


----------



## Porkrind

How do they shoot?


----------



## sethro02

Well two out of three flew good..the other I dont know what happened..it got a 3 on flight...the hunor africa is pretty awesome...and the other that was good was a 4 blade..cant remember which one that was..it makes any other 4 blade look small..look em up..ill give you a deal on mine..


----------



## sethro02

The 4 blade is the magor...1 1/8" x 1"...its nasty...the neo is the one I couldnt get to fly


----------



## Porkrind

PM sent


----------



## public land

sethro02 said:


> Besides fixed blades out penetrating mechanicals did anything else stand out in the test for some of you?


Penetration was the largest factor between fixed and mechanical's We see it Definitely stood out. 
I don't want to nit pick but I'm ocd on quality control : ) the height of the target changed the way it was supported imo it became less stationary on a smaller base "the paint can" the box looks like it went through a "world war". I would have liked to see the target stationary solid. Possibly up against a brick wall with room for a an extra back stop.
The plywood temp shimmed in the slots, to give all the heads = resistance. Hind site is always 20/20. LOL Other than that it was worth every moment of informative knowledge i could absorb. 
Thank you sethmonster for all you patients time and effort. You are what makes this community a great place to be in.

Be Smart Be Safe enjoy the Hunt 

Plywood Beware the sethmonster is lurking :wink: and don't forget the worlds shortage of ballistic gel You know anything about this sir?


----------



## Norwegian Woods

sethro02 said:


> Besides fixed blades out penetrating mechanicals did anything else stand out in the test for some of you?


That rather many broad heads failed(fell apart/broke) at 20 yards from the relatively weak set up you used.

Would be interesting to see how the result would be from a heavier set up.


----------



## akatsuki

sethro02 said:


> so what is actually being tested tonight is :
> 1. rage extreme
> 2. 100 grain Helix
> 
> both of these heads will be officially in the testing..I will need a few days to go buy an injection to build for the deep six Helix 125 grain.


I will be shooting the Deep 6 HELIX broadhead this coming Saturday for opening day Elk in Colorado. If I'm lucky enough to get a shot off and harvest a bull, I'll be sure to post pictures!


----------



## Smoknnca

Seth thanks for trying the sabermaxx. I was genuinely shocked by the slug size hole it made in the ply oars. Imagine the blood trail if it was a good hit. I will be using that head for deer or hogs.


----------



## sethro02

The buckets I had setup for the last few tests was not that bad supported...all the buckets had 25 lbs of minerals in them,and I strapped it down to the bootom bucket. Ill admit I should have done it the same but it really didnt wobble much more than the coolers. Next time it will be rock solid!

On the test I did crank my bow down to achieve 69 ft lbs...440 grain arrow at almost 270 fps....i know its not super fast because I wanted it average but no way id call it weak! Looks like ill be buying 80 lb limbs for next test!






Yes the sabermaxx surprised me with the slug hole...i shot it at my glendel first to make sure it was sighted in and it literally left a 12 gauge slug hole and you could look right through it!


----------



## TimmyZ7

Norwegian Woods said:


> That rather many broad heads failed(fell apart/broke) at 20 yards from the relatively weak set up you used.
> 
> Would be interesting to see how the result would be from a heavier set up.


:weightlifter:


----------



## Norwegian Woods

TimmyZ7 said:


> :weightlifter:


:set1_rolf2:

I don't shoot a very heavy set up myself. 600 grain at 260 fps and about 90 KE, but I am sure it gives more punishment to the broad head compared to 69 KE.
There are people shooting 100+ KE too.

It is similar to using a magnum cartridge instead of a standard.
There are bullets that do the job well and hold together in a 308 or 30-06, but shot from a 300 magnum, the bullet fall apart and often don't do the killing job well, demanding that you need to use a tougher bullet that can take the impact force a 300 magnum gives.


----------



## sethro02

I think if I was shooting 70 lbs their would have been more destruction and more passthroughs for sure...looking for 70 or 80 lb limbs now..timmyz7 had some but evo and axe arent compatible...but as soon as I get heavier limbs we will put some of these to that test


----------



## 0nepin

I have killed many animal with the rage titanium with over 100lb ke and they have held up very well,even with a 509gr at 331fps.Seth test showed what heads could do with med/high ke and scapula shots.


Norwegian Woods said:


> :set1_rolf2:
> 
> I don't shoot a very heavy set up myself. 600 grain at 260 fps and about 90 KE, but I am sure it gives more punishment to the broad head compared to 69 KE.
> There are people shooting 100+ KE too.
> 
> It is similar to using a magnum cartridge instead of a standard.
> There are bullets that do the job well and hold together in a 308 or 30-06, but shot from a 300 magnum, the bullet fall apart and often don't do the killing job well, demanding that you need to use a tougher bullet that can take the impact force a 300 magnum gives.


----------



## sethro02

yea anybodys setup better be able to go through a scapula! that isn't to difficult on a whitetail...but some of these that broke on this test i wonder what they would do going over 300fps and hit shoulder head on?!


----------



## Norwegian Woods

0nepin said:


> I have killed many animal with the rage titanium with over 100lb ke and they have held up very well,even with a 509gr at 331fps.Seth test showed what heads could do with med/high ke and scapula shots.


I think Seth's test is very good for testing how well broad heads manage scapula hits from around 70 KE.
I would never trust the broad heads that failed in the test, not even from a 50 KE set up.

I never trust and use anything that just work or is on the limit for failing.
I want leverage to be 100% sure that it will work 100% all the time.

I give the equipment I use myself rather much beating to test and to be sure I will get no surprises when it is the real deal.
You can be sure the moment a Ulmer all steel with 2" cut comes on the market, I will order a pack and try my best to break them


----------



## TimmyZ7

Seth I bet your skin has grown pretty thick after this thread. You have been called everything including a blasphemer for questioning Ashby, lol!


----------



## Viper69

Norwegian Woods said:


> I think Seth's test is very good for testing how well broad heads manage scapula hits from around 70 KE.
> I would never trust the broad heads that failed in the test, not even from a 50 KE set up.
> 
> I never trust and use anything that just work or is on the limit for failing.
> I want leverage to be 100% sure that it will work 100% all the time.
> 
> I give the equipment I use myself rather much beating to test and to be sure I will get no surprises when it is the real deal.
> You can be sure the moment a Ulmer all steel with 2" cut comes on the market, I will order a pack and try my best to break them


Yeah a 2" cut 125 grain Ulmer would be sweet....


----------



## sethro02

Haha yea I had fun doing it though and got to meet some cool people...and not so cool people...im gonna have to do a different test just because im so interested in how all of our equioment performs...trying to get some arrow sponsors for next test


----------



## valleysteve

G5 Striker is said to be the toughest removable blade head on the market. Sure would like to know if that is true!


----------



## sethro02

Imo no they are not..blades were nicked up...shuttle t sisnt have anything wrong with blades...st's had nothing wrong with blades..their were others....if it didnt get a 5 in durability then something happened to them...i do know the striker had nicks in blades though


----------



## 0nepin

Arrow sponsor would be awesome.darn thing are expensive!!!! How many arrow did you destroy in your test?


----------



## sethro02

i know some people who are in with easton so hopefully it comes through.....i went through roughly 15 or 16 arrows.


----------



## 0nepin

Injextion with vap or fire nock out outsert would be bullet proof


----------



## sethro02

yea these injexion shafts are bad! i just dont know if i want to shoot the crap out of them! the wall is so thick on these arrows its crazy


----------



## Norwegian Woods

sethro02 said:


> yea these injexion shafts are bad! i just dont know if i want to shoot the crap out of them! the wall is so thick on these arrows its crazy


Sadly they don't come in 300 spine..


----------



## 0nepin

Norwegian Woods said:


> Sadly they don't come in 300 spine..


Yea that why I'm shooting vap 300&250.


----------



## sethro02

Yea if I increase my draw I may have to switch


----------



## Porkrind

PM sent sethro.


----------



## manboy

only 16 more views for 200,000..........wow is AT crazy about broadheads..lol......great test seth!


----------



## sethro02

haha...it's amazing but hey its whats on the business end when killing your game!


----------



## sethro02

pm's returned.


----------



## Viper69

manboy said:


> only 16 more views for 200,000..........wow is AT crazy about broadheads..lol......great test seth!


At least Im not alone with my love for broadheads.


----------



## 0nepin

you did it 200,000 veiws!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! this has to be a record.


----------



## sethro02

Man I would think so!

Viper im definately a broadhead\ atrow junkie


Onepin do you need those helix for your son?


----------



## Viper69

Just bought some more to test. I ordered a pack of the 125 grain Shuttle T lock Black ops. Ive never played around with them before so I thought what the heck.


----------



## sethro02

you wont be dissapointed at all with those. i bet those 125 shuttles hit harddddddd


----------



## TimmyZ7

Viper69 said:


> At least Im not alone with my love for broadheads.


Your definitely not alone brother. AT is going to have AA meetings for broadhead junkies like us. Hi my name is Timmy and I am addicted to large cut broadheads. Lol.


----------



## sethro02

lol..thats hilarious


----------



## 0nepin

TimmyZ7 said:


> Your definitely not alone brother. AT is going to have AA meetings for broadhead junkies like us. Hi my name is Timmy and I am addicted to large cut broadheads. Lol.


Hi my name is Jason and im big cutting rear deplory broadhead junky.


----------



## Norwegian Woods

0nepin said:


> you did it 200,000 veiws!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! this has to be a record.


It is not a AT record, but great anyway  Maybe it is a record for the bow hunting section 
We had a crazy "post and win this and that" thread going on some years ago(2006) 
I don't remember the name of the thread now.

It was a fun escape from all the bashing and hate.
It was lots of fun and friendship on that thread.
I think maybe it was shut down by the mods, but I am not sure.

I remember I won some wraps, a used hunting dvd and a camo necktie on the thread and I still have them all.
I specially love the camo necktie that was made by a great female member on AT *southerngirl*. Sadly she is inactive now..

There are some crazy threads going on in *Mutantville*:teeth:
"Hottest woman archer thread" has 1,956,359 views by now:tongue:


----------



## sethro02

Yea I dont think broadheads will ever compete with woman!...still gonna try to shoot vap's with a couple 125 grain heads to see if we can get some passthroughs


----------



## Viper69

Broadhead Junkies. I like it!


----------



## lung smasher

Love some broadheads. But I have to agree Seth broadheads will never compete with good looking women!


----------



## lung smasher

O by the way thanks for your testing. My gravediggers came yesterday. The only complaint I have is sharpness but I will fix that this weekend with the ole sharpening stone. They seem built really well. Shot spot on with my field points and ole grim reapers.


----------



## sethro02

Good glad to hear..takes 1 minute to get them scary sharp if thats what you like


----------



## Porkrind

Hopefully I will have some kill pics with those Hunors to post up. If I can figure out how in a little over a month. lol


----------



## sethro02

Haha we will help you with pics


----------



## Porkrind

nice, i always have issues with technical stuff


----------



## lung smasher

Yea I figure I can put a good edge on em in a short period of time. Can't wait to shoot a animal with em. Shot a milk jug yesterday lmao


----------



## Viper69

sethro02 said:


> you wont be dissapointed at all with those. i bet those 125 shuttles hit harddddddd


They are 1 3/16's cut so they shouldnt be too bad. Have you used them before?


----------



## sethro02

I havent shot 125 but thos 100's hit hard..in the test and at targets


----------



## fxwg85

Another got my gravedigger post here. After glueing one together(thanks Seth) to use as a practice head, only took a few shots to be impressed. 20, 30 and 40 yrds hitting the bullseye. No adjusting anything. Spot on with field points.


----------



## sethro02

Not surprised one bit! If you need anything else let me know....one more month and ill have kill shot pics!


----------



## Porkrind

Stoked to get my heads in now.


----------



## sethro02

I was thinking about testing material...again...and I was wondering...i used to work in a body shop so I was thinking about making fiberglass sheets with like fiber glass resin and the tiger hair brand mats? It would take some trial and error for perfect thickness but it breaks like bone..it doesnt splinter like wood..thinking out loud but maybe im on to something...it will prob have to be 1/2 to 3/4" thick..what u think?


----------



## Porkrind

Try this link it is about bone density and deer by age. I don't see why plaster with fiberglass strands mixed in and poured into a mold wouldn't work possibly. http://www.google.com/search?q=deer...AGqh4HYBw&ved=0CDIQsAQ4FA&biw=533&bih=320#i=4


----------



## Porkrind

as for flesh, muscle tissue, and blood I would think that the cheap furnace filter with ziploc bags filled with thinned out ketchup and all covered in gelatin would work. but that's a lot of work.


----------



## Kelleborne

sethro02 said:


> View attachment 1404107


That's awesome! That's a badarse looking head!


----------



## Michael Myers

sethro02 said:


> I was thinking about testing material...again...and I was wondering...i used to work in a body shop so I was thinking about making fiberglass sheets with like fiber glass resin and the tiger hair brand mats? It would take some trial and error for perfect thickness but it breaks like bone..it doesnt splinter like wood..thinking out loud but maybe im on to something...it will prob have to be 1/2 to 3/4" thick..what u think?


I am liking the Idea...Grizz


----------



## sethro02

Yea that raging ulmer is awesome for sure


----------



## 0nepin

Seth do think my sons chaos one at 50lb 26" with a 376gr will have enuff ke/mo to get a clean passthrough 30yrds and under with a helix? I'm just talking about broadside through the ribs.


----------



## sethro02

Imo...no problem at all


----------



## UTGrad

Peek-a-boo

Grim Reapers


----------



## bginvestor

I tried not to giggle about his childish behavior, but that was funny.. Lol

Oh, I went deer hunting last night in the desert (AZ). My buck didn't come in, so I took a shot at a cottontail at 40 yards right before dark.

I had a choice of the Swhacker or grim reaper. I chose Swhacker since I haven't tried it yet. Unfortunately, I missed. The broadhead dove into the soil and hit a rock just under the surface. Only about one inch of penetration. Lol. Anyway, the ferrule did not break and it held up pretty good IMHO. The body was slightly bent. Arrow was fine. I was pulling 60lbs.



UTGrad said:


> Peek-a-boo
> 
> Grim Reapers


----------



## sethro02

Utgrad at least you got thread back to the top


----------



## TimmyZ7

UTGrad said:


> Peek-a-boo
> 
> Grim Reapers


Lol!


----------



## nolimitarchery

I just got back into town sorry about the delay. Lung smasher, Thanks for the info and I think I will always be working on the sharpness. It is crazy but some are perfect and some not so much. But please bare with me.

Also here are the pictures of the 125's. I will answer some FAQ's on them that some will have, here we go.

Yes that is a brass weight ring.
Yes it is removable. It is just glued.
The reason for the ring is this. It is 11 grains, we are also making a small front blade that weighs, yes 11 grains. This is for the pure mechanical guys that like the way the Grave Digger blades deploy but don't want the larger main blade, (or..windy conditions) The main blade weighs 25 grains so with the 125gr version you can take off the large main blade put on the small main blade and remove the weight ring and "wallah" you have a 100 grain broadhead.
They are anodized a "gun metal" yes I think I like it better and no we aren't changing the 100 grains. :wink:
Orders will ship out tomorrow.

Thank you 
Dale


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## Viper69

Are they all spoken for so far?


----------



## Viper69

Never mind I ordered some anyway.


----------



## sethro02

Geez those 125 look baddd..stop giving us options so I can save my money for something else!


----------



## Porkrind

My dad switched to an xbow last season for health reasons and I'm trying to talk him into the Grave Digger broadheads, what do ya'll think?


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## sethro02

Do it! They were tested at 385 fps! Your good!

Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk 2


----------



## Porkrind

Awesome. I'll just buy them for him.


----------



## sethro02

I might try to test a 125 grain gravedigger..see what differance in penetration would be


----------



## Ned250

Hey Seth... Updated spreadsheet with the Rage Extreme and Helix - https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AgJEvQwzfDRZdGxzdC15R0JIZDJGQ1J4bVpGV1pTWHc

That Helix looks badass!


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## TimmyZ7

So who is videoing these broadheads in action? I just ordered the Kodak zx3 bow package from insane archery and will be videoing shots, blood trails and of course carnage. I would also like to show the broadhead as I pick up my arrow to display the integrity of it after a pass through. Anyone else on board?


----------



## lung smasher

nolimitarchery said:


> I just got back into town sorry about the delay. Lung smasher, Thanks for the info and I think I will always be working on the sharpness. It is crazy but some are perfect and some not so much. But please bare with me.
> 
> Also here are the pictures of the 125's. I will answer some FAQ's on them that some will have, here we go.
> 
> Yes that is a brass weight ring.
> Yes it is removable. It is just glued.
> The reason for the ring is this. It is 11 grains, we are also making a small front blade that weighs, yes 11 grains. This is for the pure mechanical guys that like the way the Grave Digger blades deploy but don't want the larger main blade, (or..windy conditions) The main blade weighs 25 grains so with the 125gr version you can take off the large main blade put on the small main blade and remove the weight ring and "wallah" you have a 100 grain broadhead.
> They are anodized a "gun metal" yes I think I like it better and no we aren't changing the 100 grains. :wink:
> Orders will ship out tomorrow.
> 
> Thank you
> Dale
> 
> View attachment 1454124
> View attachment 1454125


Thank you for the great product dale. Sharpened em up and got a decent edge on em. They fly awesome right with my field points out to 35 yards. Havnt shot any farther yet cuz my bow isn't tuned in good yet. Few more tweaks and I'll try em out to 60 and see how they do I'm sure it will be the same results out of well tuned bow.


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## sethro02

timmy i will have 3 cameras total in the tree for me...EVERYTHING will be videotaped....pov camera....kill shot camera...camera on me....


----------



## sethro02

thanks for updating nick...yea those helix are awesome looking,,,very very quiet too.


----------



## TimmyZ7

sethro02 said:


> timmy i will have 3 cameras total in the tree for me...EVERYTHING will be videotaped....pov camera....kill shot camera...camera on me....


Good stuff! Looking forward to it, especially now that the season is so close. I really want to see the Grave Diggers appetite.


----------



## sethro02

their are 3, 130" bucks on my cams along with does that are their everyday until 10:30am...so hopefully at about 1:00pm on oct 1st i'll have pics posted! or they will leave completely when they shed their velvet :thumbs_do


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## sethro02

timmy if i play my cards right i may have a small oppurtunity to be on pursuit channel next year so we will keep in touch on that, maybe i'lll shoot a frankenhead for my franken buds on AT....then it will get super popular and you and onepin can start your own business!


----------



## skeet16

Awesome thread!


----------



## lung smasher

skeet16 said:


> Awesome thread!


By far the best tread I have read in a few years.


----------



## Michael Myers

:thumbs_up


sethro02 said:


> timmy if i play my cards right i may have a small oppurtunity to be on pursuit channel next year so we will keep in touch on that, maybe i'lll shoot a frankenhead for my franken buds on AT....then it will get super popular and you and onepin can start your own business!


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## Viper69

lung smasher said:


> By far the best tread I have read in a few years.


Yeah its one of the best.


----------



## sethro02

thanks guys...still need to get a deep six injexion built to test the 125 grain helix...i also may shoot a couple 125 grain vpa's to see how they stack up to the 100 grain vented that i tested.


----------



## sethro02

results updated in my sig


----------



## UTGrad

Rage in the cage baby


----------



## bambikiller

UTGrad said:


> Rage in the cage baby


I hate that saying .. Cant watch the drury bros any more cuz thats all they say


----------



## sethro02

bambikiller....125 gravedigger on the way


----------



## UTGrad

Or in this case " Rage in the gel baby"


----------



## sethro02

Utgrad I thought we were on a common ground here? Remember you said you thought I was a nice guy and that you thought you were a nice guy?! You just being a smart###?

Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk 2


----------



## UTGrad

sethro02 said:


> Utgrad I thought we were on a common ground here? Remember you said you thought I was a nice guy and that you thought you were a nice guy?! You just being a smart###?
> 
> Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk 2


Dang bro...have a sense of humor.


----------



## goathollow

UTGrad said:


> Dang bro...have a sense of humor.


For a guy who dislikes this thread as much as you clearly do you sure do pay close attention to it! Why do you bring all this anxiety upon yourself?


----------



## sethro02

I have a good sense of humor. Just would like to have less useless posts...your posts are funny on other peoples threads


----------



## bambikiller

Just recieved mine they are sweet..more compact than i thought, i like them alot gong to fling some arrows in a few after dinner


sethro02 said:


> bambikiller....125 gravedigger on the way


----------



## sethro02

Awesome let us know how they do


----------



## UTGrad

sethro02 said:


> I have a good sense of humor. Just would like to have less useless posts...your posts are funny on other peoples threads


No problem Bro...its gonna break your heart when this thread winds up on page 18. I thought I would cut up a bit. You are waaayyyyy too into this post.


----------



## pinski79

sethro02 said:


> timmy if i play my cards right i may have a small oppurtunity to be on pursuit channel next year so we will keep in touch on that, maybe i'lll shoot a frankenhead for my franken buds on AT....then it will get super popular and you and onepin can start your own business!


good for you


----------



## 0nepin

sethro02 said:


> slick trick standard
> View attachment 1416307


Deer whistle.


----------



## 0nepin

sethro02 said:


> titanium extreme
> View attachment 1413194


Wallet size hole.


----------



## bowhuntermitch

UTGrad said:


> No problem Bro...its gonna break your heart when this thread winds up on page 18. I thought I would cut up a bit. You are waaayyyyy too into this post.


LOL, and you're not?


----------



## TimmyZ7

0nepin said:


> Wallet size hole.


Don't start hurting feelings again, lol. People get angry when you show that one.


----------



## Porkrind

Shooting the Honors tomorrow. I'm stoked to get these dialed in and blasting holes. Thanks Sethro. U da man.


----------



## Michael Myers

0nepin said:


> Deer whistle.


:thumbs_up...


----------



## sethro02

Porkrind no problem.

Utsad I kinda have to be into it since I get questions everyday and I dont mind helping others out...prob be awhile til page 18 since ill be testing a few others....anyways

Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk 2


----------



## sethro02

Onepin you should be getting package anyday now


----------



## dw'struth

Anyone have any rage turkey blades for sale or trade?
I would also like to have some more titaniums, or titanium practice heads. So, maybe I missed
It, but which head will you take your first shot with this season..... a modified rage, or the Raging Ulmer?


----------



## sethro02

Dw'struth if you are talking to me I will be shooting gravediggers to start..maybe onepin will chime in on blades for sale


----------



## dw'struth

Ok, cool. I thought you would
Be shooting the Raging Ulmer or an "extra cut" Rage.


----------



## sethro02

The raging ulmer is in my quiver but after putting almost 30 different broadheads into animals ive never been so excited about a broadhead (grave digger) ill see if it lives up to my standards this year and if so,i may have found my long term head...i like the ulmer as a full blown mechanical but I like the reliability of a fixed..i think the grave digger is the best of both. We will see! I want the chisel gravedigger!


----------



## 0nepin

dw'struth said:


> Ok, cool. I thought you would
> Be shooting the Raging Ulmer or an "extra cut" Rage.


There will be a only franken heads In my quiver this season.I'm going to start with the ray Charles and then the rage digger,raging ulmer ,chisel extreme,Supercreech .


----------



## sethro02

man you better shoot all of those at something and post it up! if you run out of tags i will come down and help out!


----------



## dw'struth

That's cool. I would really like to make a "Turkey Titanium"! Keep us posted...


----------



## 0nepin

sethro02 said:


> man you better shoot all of those at something and post it up! if you run out of tags i will come down and help out!


There are no tags in Florida ,two deer a day from July to feb.I'm also hunting ky and ga.


----------



## sethro02

Oh gotcha...my hometown is right across river from hancock county..if its in that area let me know


----------



## 0nepin

sethro02 said:


> Oh gotcha...my hometown is right across river from hancock county..if its in that area let me know


I will be hunting trigg county near Cadiz ky.


----------



## sethro02

Nice..good luck


----------



## skeet16

Any news when we will see the taro car tip grave digger?


----------



## sethro02

not sure but may be next year...i'll have to check though


----------



## Viper69

Well I just got my 125 Gravediggers today. I think I may have rage Chisels and gravediggers in the quiver.


----------



## IowaAssassin

Holy crap, with his setup Onepin will be shooting through 3 of those Florida sized deer, lol! Might actually cut one of them in half. Seriously though, make sure the carnage page is extremely pic heavy. Looking forward to it!


----------



## 0nepin

IowaAssassin said:


> Holy crap, with his setup Onepin will be shooting through 3 of those Florida sized deer, lol! Might actually cut one of them in half. Seriously though, make sure the carnage page is extremely pic heavy. Looking forward to it!


Haha I will be posting up some carnage pic.


----------



## WV-MTNEER

Just got some Gravediggers today in the mail. Man these heads look mean.


----------



## 0nepin

sethro02 said:


> Onepin you should be getting package anyday now


The helix showed up today,thanks bro.These should be perfect for my sons low ke setup.


----------



## sethro02

awesome jason....may have more so just let know if you want to stock up


----------



## sethro02

i cannot wait to slice it in half with my pse!


----------



## 0nepin

sethro02 said:


> i cannot wait to slice it in half with my pse!


I have not been this fired up for bows season in a long time.


----------



## sethro02

same here man im driving myself freakin crazy...i'll definately have alottttt of deer meat! I already have an itchy trigger finger


----------



## bambikiller

4 more days ... Where is this carnage thread going to be .. Id like to post pics of the grave digger carnage if im lucky enough to get one tues?


----------



## sethro02

Man I dont know..i think dale would be happy if we posted pics in gravedigger thread but I think their needs to be a new one in bowhunting section..gravedigger carnage thread..then maybe frankenhead carnage thread..people need to see what some of these heads can do...or maybe a big "real deal" carnage kill thread so you can post every kill with every head..it would then be easy to compare


----------



## bambikiller

Ya that sounds good.. There was a nice thread like that last year i believe


----------



## sethro02

Yea I think it got buried...if u kill something get it goin


----------



## Porkrind

Like the idea for the carnage thread.


----------



## 0nepin

Porkrind said:


> Like the idea for the carnage thread.


Let's see you can get it started first.I cant hunt untill next weekend.


----------



## Michael Myers

0nepin said:


> Let's see you can get it started first.I cant hunt untill next weekend.


I Think i am gonna call my Omen....Michael Myers...It should be here Wed or Thursday,I am gonna shoot the Rage Chisel tips with Beman MFX 400's out of it...Set at 62 Lbs...I am pumped...Grizz


----------



## Viper69

0nepin said:


> Let's see you can get it started first.I cant hunt untill next weekend.


Heck I gotta wait for a month yet...


----------



## Michael Myers

Viper69 said:


> Heck I gotta wait for a month yet...


Same here for Whitetails..But Bear season Opens this Coming week in my area...Grizz


----------



## sethro02

yeah whoever gets the first kill should start the real deal carnage pics for sure...i have to patiently wait for a month!


----------



## Mathewsboy00

man im jelous been watching this thread and im pumped too only freakin problem is im in afghanistan...no hunting welll DEER hunting for me...you guys are only thing i got..so you better kill a monster !!!! lol go getem guys


----------



## sethro02

thanks for you service brotha....without you we wouldnt have the freedom to moan and complain about broadheads not working!


----------



## lung smasher

sethro02 said:


> thanks for you service brotha....without you we wouldnt have the freedom to moan and complain about broadheads not working!


Yea what he said thank you for the service man.


----------



## lung smasher

I'm about to spaz out waiting on the carnage photos. Can't wait to shoot something.


----------



## War_Material

Mathewsboy00 said:


> man im jelous been watching this thread and im pumped too only freakin problem is im in afghanistan...no hunting welll DEER hunting for me...you guys are only thing i got..so you better kill a monster !!!! lol go getem guys


Hope you are doing okay in the desert. When I was there all I did was hit the gym and keep in touch with family and friends aside from work and it sucked but I would go back in a heartbeat! I hope to put an Ulmer Edge into a Large North Dakota white tail, Air Force Style, and when I do I will post pics! I been hunting last 2 days with no Joy. Hopefully soon though! Be safe out there Brother!


----------



## steelerhead95

can you comment a bit on the testing you did with magnus buzzcuts? i see where it scored on your spreadsheet, but would like to hear what you saw during testing. thanks.


----------



## sethro02

good luck post pics as soon as it hits the dirt!


----------



## sethro02

i noted that the buzz broke and didnt spin true after the shot...i ended up giving it away with a couple other heads so i can't go back and look at it. i was contacted about the buzzcut from the magnus guy on here and was told no way that it broke...their is a piece of the ferrule that comes off when you take the blades out..it helps locking the bleeder blade in when assembled. anyways after the shot it was pretty mangled, also the main blade shifted so that it was sitting offset of the ferrule. i took it apart. cleaned it up. put it back together and it didnt spin true and could not get the blades to sit correctly in ferrule. the piece that holds the bleeder needed replaced.cant say much more than that. hope that helps. i got alot of bad pm's and good pm's after that test.


----------



## steelerhead95

thanks for the quick and honest response. i use the buzzcuts, and like them. however, i have experienced what you are saying. i have one that was shot into the ground after going through a deer, and the blade isn't sitting in the ferrule straight anymore. it is offset now. i haven't had a deer go more than 70 yards after being shot, and i have passed through every deer shooting 240fps with my bow, but they are breaking at a rate of 50% for me. the good side is that they have the best warranty ever, and always take care of me. i was just curious about what happened in your testing that made their durability come out so low. i can't speak about the bleeders as i use the two blade buzzcut. your testing is awesome, thanks for putting all this work into it and sharing your info.


----------



## sethro02

No problem man...if you like buzzcuts you may like tge steelforce sabertooth ss as well


----------



## LvToHunt

Sethro When you you gonna shoot shoot the Helix 125's?


----------



## sethro02

Soon..waiting on mail to deliver injexion shafts so I can build one...should be this week! Ill probably shoot some vpa 125 as well!


----------



## LvToHunt

I've been reading your thread all morning. Interesting stuff. Too much for one sit. I read the spread sheet but can't find the pages where you tested the following heads-ulmer proto type, german kinetic or the solid. just curious. Thank you for your hard work. Good Job!


----------



## Fortyneck

LvToHunt said:


> I've been reading your thread all morning. Interesting stuff. Too much for one sit. I read the spread sheet but can't find the pages where you tested the following heads-ulmer proto type, german kinetic or the solid. just curious. Thank you for your hard work. Good Job!


The pages are linked on the spreadsheet all the way on the right, the ulmer proto is at the bottom of the sheet.


----------



## Porkrind

Well dove season opened yesterday but I don't think that counts for the carnage thread. Lol.


----------



## sethro02

what grizzman said. all the way to the right...nick (ned250) did an awesome job on that spreadsheet.. if you have any other questions you can pm me as well. thanks


----------



## Fortyneck

sethro02 said:


> what grizzman said. all the way to the right...nick (ned250) did an awesome job on that spreadsheet.. if you have any other questions you can pm me as well. thanks


:confused3:


----------



## sethro02

Fortyneck? Confused ?


----------



## Fortyneck

sethro02 said:


> Fortyneck? Confused ?


Me confused? You're the one calling me Grizzman. :wink:


----------



## sethro02

Fortyneck...my bad man just seen what I did


----------



## Fortyneck

sethro02 said:


> Fortyneck...my bad man just seen what I did


:thumbs_up


----------



## Michael Myers

Fortyneck said:


> Me confused? You're the one calling me Grizzman. :wink:


There is only 1 of me..:hello2:


----------



## LvToHunt

Seth I just finished reading this entire thing. 4 lengthly sits at the computer. It was worth it. The comedy alone was worth it. UT Grad's childish post's kinda make ya wanna punch someone thru the computer moniter! UTGrad if you read this, all I can say is Really? Your kinda over the top. Take a step back and just chill it's just a test. Back to the point. I took alot of useful info from this test. One that surprised me is that a durable mech IS made and can penetrate as well a fixed blade. I'm not mech guy but this one makes me rethink a little. Second, it gave me some confirmation on heads that I use today or have used in the past. Heads that I found to be poor performers in the field were also poor performers on your test. The same is true in reverse, the good ones did well. That leads me to the conclusion your testing DOES have merit regardless that it is not on live game (some have criticised you for this on this thread and other threads).Your testing may not be the deciding factor in helping people choose but more info helps people make a better informed choice. Your testing accomplishes that . People have different goals,preferences and situations. People need to choose what fits them. I appreciate you for staying objective and not trying to steer people one way or the other. Thanks again and Good Job! Rob


----------



## sethro02

Thanks rob..i agree with you...i had same types of performances with my heads as well...glad you read it and thought it was useful...couldnt agree more


----------



## irishiup

Seth -- Can you post a summary in a new thread now that it's over?


----------



## sethro02

Let me see what I can do..itll take a little time..for now though the results are in my sig


----------



## Viper69

irishiup said:


> Seth -- Can you post a summary in a new thread now that it's over?


Over? Nothing is over until we decide it is. LOL


----------



## Fortyneck

Viper69 said:


> Over? Nothing is over until we decide it is. LOL


He thinks he can just *walk* away???


----------



## Michael Myers

Fortyneck said:


> He thinks he can just *walk* away???


Once your in...Your in for Life...Thats all i got to say about that...Lol..Grizz


----------



## sethro02

Hah..this may be ongoing...still have helix proto and a couple 125 grain to shoot...i had a feeling im trapped!


----------



## Viper69

sethro02 said:


> Hah..this may be ongoing...still have helix proto and a couple 125 grain to shoot...i had a feeling im trapped!


Yep trapped.. LOL


----------



## rhodeislandhntr

seth, was wondering if the torrid you had could be tested. According to the web description, they can either be 100 gr or 85 by removing the collar. I was interested in using them and wondering how they faired in your test, thanks


----------



## sethro02

let me check on that torrid


----------



## UTGrad

irishiup said:


> Seth -- Can you post a summary in a new thread now that it's over?


This thread was "semi-cool" a month ago but it's morphed into a conversation between about 5 or 6 people with the occasional post. Our OP is now an expert on broadheads and there is talk he might be appearing on a hunting show. The OP has gained a following (of about 15 people) that have even had the stones to bash "OldHootOwl" who designed and owns Slick Trick.

This thread needs to become a sticky in the "Broadhead Forum" where it belongs. 

To the OP, anybody with time, plywood and ballistic gelatin in their garage can do a test like yours, but who has the time and third parties to confirm your results?


----------



## kyhunter5569

ulmer edge 100 grain entry







ulmer edge exit







cavity pic very impressed broadhead not broke bent or anything awesome wound channel!! 
Sethro your testing is why this head was on my arrow


----------



## sethro02

once again your useless...never bashed oldhootowl...what im doing on my free time in production has nothing to do with this. obviously you are one of the followers! always lurking for grim reaper comments you tool job


----------



## sethro02

^^^^i was referring to utgrad.


----------



## 0nepin

Everybody on this forum is sorry your broadheads of choice did not finish on top.how's the shoulder?and you hurt your self with only drawing a 70lb bow,CARMA!!


UTGrad said:


> This thread was "semi-cool" a month ago but it's morphed into a conversation between about 5 or 6 people with the occasional post. Our OP is now an expert on broadheads and there is talk he might be appearing on a hunting show. The OP has gained a following (of about 15 people) that have even had the stones to bash "OldHootOwl" who designed and owns Slick Trick.
> 
> This thread needs to become a sticky in the "Broadhead Forum" where it belongs.
> 
> To the OP, anybody with time, plywood and ballistic gelatin in their garage can do a test like yours, but who has the time and third parties to confirm your results?


----------



## sethro02

kyhunter5569 said:


> ulmer edge 100 grain entry
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ulmer edge exit
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> cavity pic very impressed broadhead not broke bent or anything awesome wound channel!!
> Sethro your testing is why this head was on my arrow[/QUOT
> 
> glad i could help! nice shot and nice deer man!


----------



## sethro02

i'll start a carnage thread so post them in there as well


----------



## UTGrad

LOL! OldHootOwl was straight calling you and your posse out about ballistic gel as a medium and they thronged on him like a high school cafeteria fight.


----------



## sethro02

didnt bash him,,,read the thread, i was simply asking questions and never got a response, then he closed it....he thinks his broadheads are the best which is fine, if i made my own i would think they are the best. sounds like your pissed at me for what my "posse" said. look it up its back on page 80 with your stabilizer thread


----------



## LvToHunt

UTGrad said:


> This thread was "semi-cool" a month ago but it's morphed into a conversation between about 5 or 6 people with the occasional post. Our OP is now an expert on broadheads and there is talk he might be appearing on a hunting show. The OP has gained a following (of about 15 people) that have even had the stones to bash "OldHootOwl" who designed and owns Slick Trick.
> 
> This thread needs to become a sticky in the "Broadhead Forum" where it belongs.
> 
> To the OP, anybody with time, plywood and ballistic gelatin in their garage can do a test like yours, but who has the time and third parties to confirm your results?


UtGrad Are you for real? Do you post just so you can get a reaction? It's just testing! You seem to have a hard on for Seth and his test. You need to back off a little. I've heard of Devil's Advocate but this is getting a little ridiculous. Grim Reapers did OK so what gives? Take from it what you want and forget the rest. It's not a perfect test but it still has merit and useful information to be taken from it. All you seem to want to do is bash this thread. Your youth and immaturity are really showcased w/ your posts. In the future, try to act like an adult and just simply agree to disagree and just let it go because I don't think you don't realize just how bad your making yourself look w/ these attacks on someone else's hard work.


----------



## War_Material

Wow I can't wait to put an Ulmer Edge into a deer soon! hopefully this weekend. Awesome pics and great tests people.


----------



## UTGrad

0nepin said:


> Everybody on this forum is sorry your broadheads of choice did not finish on top.how's the shoulder?and you hurt your self with only drawing a 70lb bow,CARMA!!


HAHAHAHAHAHAHA....that's right macho man. Have fun with your elephant bow to feed your ego.


----------



## sethro02

I have a feeling their will be alot of ulmer kills


----------



## Viper69

UTGrad said:


> This thread was "semi-cool" a month ago but it's morphed into a conversation between about 5 or 6 people with the occasional post. Our OP is now an expert on broadheads and there is talk he might be appearing on a hunting show. The OP has gained a following (of about 15 people) that have even had the stones to bash "OldHootOwl" who designed and owns Slick Trick.
> 
> This thread needs to become a sticky in the "Broadhead Forum" where it belongs.
> 
> To the OP, anybody with time, plywood and ballistic gelatin in their garage can do a test like yours, but who has the time and third parties to confirm your results?


Maybe you just need to pass by this thread and not post in it if it bothers you so much. Of course anyone with time and the materials could do these tests. Whats your point. He did the tests and some people enjoyed seeing the results.


----------



## sethro02

mail call....injexion shaft came, going to test the helix deep six in the next day or two...i think this one will do very well for sure...total weight will be 473.3 grains.


----------



## sethro02

Here we go!!!

Helix Deep Six 125 grain on a easton a/c injexion...total weight 473.3


----------



## sethro02




----------



## sethro02

Helix Deep Six 125 grain test results:UNOFFICIAL
cutting diameter, 1 1/8", total cutting surface 3"

penetration- 9
durability- 5
dependability-5
sharp before- 5
sharp after- 4
flight- 5
total score- 33 out of 35 (total penetration, 9")


----------



## sethro02

exit


----------



## sethro02

helix deep six gel


----------



## TimmyZ7

Nice! :thumbs_up


----------



## TimmyZ7

pour some dye in there so we can see the twist


----------



## sethro02

helix aftermath


----------



## sethro02

i'll see what i got


----------



## sethro02

these heads are whisper quiet and tough as nails!


----------



## LvToHunt

They are presently in my quiver. My buddy turned me onto them last year. Had good results w/ them. After talking w/ Tim, I suggested he send some to Whitey375 and Brdy which he gladly did. He's pretty good guy and an excellant coach. Did he send them to you?


----------



## 0nepin

Nice


----------



## sethro02

Yep he contacted me...he makes a good product for sure!


----------



## MarkBaHoi

You contact alaska bowhunting supply to see about getting a few of their heads?


----------



## sethro02

Man I didnt even think about that!


----------



## rcr7mm

Seth,
Thank you so much for this awesome post.I also read every post and have found the info most interesting. I am looking for a great broadhead for my daughter shooting only about 46 lbs an 26 inch draw really leaning towards the steelforce Phathead or the TT Shuttle T Lock as with her setup I really believe in penetration first and foremost. These were 2 broadheads I hadn't even looked at prior to finding this post. Thanks You so much Hopefully she will have chance to use this season will hopefully be able to send You pics of entry /exit and let You know how they did. Thanks for Your totally unbiased report I loved every page of it !


----------



## hunting_4_life

liking everything i see lets keep it up!


----------



## MarkBaHoi

How about red feather?

I'm going to send you a razor hawk when they come in maybe.....ha ha


----------



## sethro02

rcr7mm said:


> Seth,
> Thank you so much for this awesome post.I also read every post and have found the info most interesting. I am looking for a great broadhead for my daughter shooting only about 46 lbs an 26 inch draw really leaning towards the steelforce Phathead or the TT Shuttle T Lock as with her setup I really believe in penetration first and foremost. These were 2 broadheads I hadn't even looked at prior to finding this post. Thanks You so much Hopefully she will have chance to use this season will hopefully be able to send You pics of entry /exit and let You know how they did. Thanks for Your totally unbiased report I loved every page of it !


i think those phatheads would be perfect for her! Good luck!


----------



## sethro02

Mark ive been asked several times to test them but right now all my money is going to hunting costs..


----------



## phantom1

rcr, What is your daughter's arrow speed and weight? Her ke is probably close to my regular bow, since my health went south years ago. She can probably get pass throughs just fine on whitetails.


----------



## sethro02

Yea with 46lbs and 26" draw she has some options for sure but it would be tough choice between phathead and vpa and solid...those would be a good top3...although dale from gravedigger jas a daughter shooting 40lbs and is doing work with gravediggers!


----------



## Viper69

They look like a solid head..


----------



## Porkrind

Wow.... I finally got to shoot those Hunors and man are they sweet. I was actually most impressed with the Neo! I agree that it has a whisp sound but it's not as bad as I expected. Spun true, shot true, and leaves a huge gash.


----------



## Porkrind

Hunor Neo's gash on my target. If you look close the Magor's gash is just to the right of it and it was extremely impressive as well.


----------



## Porkrind

Man i'm having a hard time trying to get this image uploaded.


----------



## SecurityGuy

Where can we see the summary of these tests?


----------



## Porkrind

Sethro's signature


----------



## sethro02

Wow nice porkrind! Glad they worked out for you! They are wicked looking!


----------



## Porkrind

Yes sir I am very pleased with all of them. Thanks again.


----------



## BBD81

Thanks for all the info you've shared...


----------



## sethro02

no problem, i know their is a ton to read through so the results are in my sig, and if someone needs some pictures and they cant find them i'll just pm them to you.


----------



## Yorklobster

sethro02 said:


> Wow nice porkrind! Glad they worked out for you! They are wicked looking!


Man those are awesome looking heads


----------



## rcr7mm

phantom1 said:


> rcr, What is your daughter's arrow speed and weight? Her ke is probably close to my regular bow, since my health went south years ago. She can probably get pass throughs just fine on whitetails.


I will have to recheck as she has strictly been doing 3d and shooting Goldtip Ultralights that weighed in around 260 grains and last I remember she was getting around 272. I Have some 150 spine Carbon express arrows I was going to have her try and they weigh roughly 335 with 100 grain head. So I figure she will be right around 250 fps. Someone on here was selling some phatheads cheap so I picked them up will test this week. But I am open to any and all suggestions!


----------



## sethro02

you wont be dissapointed with phatheads at all! you could look at vpa vented as well....im pushing gravediggers though. dale's daughter is pulling 40 lbs and she is killing with gravediggers! but either of these options you will be good to go


----------



## Mathewsboy00

What kinda flight you guys getting out to 60yrds???


----------



## sethro02

I have 1" groups at 50yards but the gravedigger prostaff guys are all out west and taking game out 70 and 80 yards consistantly


----------



## sethro02

pm's replied


----------



## UTGrad

so basically you are keeping this thread alive with letting folks know "pms replied"? Heavens I would hate for this thread to vanish. Guess I will give it a bump

ttt


----------



## hooiserarcher

UTGrad said:


> so basically you are keeping this thread alive with letting folks know "pms replied"? Heavens I would hate for this thread to vanish. Guess I will give it a bump
> 
> ttt


Seth I think you may have a stalker. Might want to invest in a nice security system. 

sent from my rotary phone


----------



## public land

Are you sure you want to add UTGrad to your ignore list? Yes click.


----------



## Viper69

public land said:


> are you sure you want to add utgrad to your ignore list? Yes click.


lol


----------



## sethro02

Yes I do have a stalker or he has a man crush...once again he talks smack again and again..im convinced he is a mod

Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk 2


----------



## Blue Tick

Lot's of info here to read thru. I used to know what BH's I was shooting and now, it seems my brain is fried.

For some reason I can't get the google docs page to open up. I anxious to read your results.


----------



## sethro02

Haha..they open for me..pm me ur email


----------



## sethro02

When I get home ill email you resilts


----------



## UTGrad

What page are the Rage 2 blade results?


----------



## sethro02

You just looking for pics? I can repost those...chisel..standard..and wxtreme?


----------



## UTGrad

Thank you Seth. Results on the standard. Pics would be a bonus.


----------



## sethro02

rage standard...gimme a sec on others


----------



## sethro02

rage standard


----------



## sethro02

the results are in my signature...47th place...let me know if it doesnt open


----------



## UTGrad

Thank you. I mostly do Tapatalk on my I Phone and have not found a way to view the results on my I Phone.


----------



## sethro02

oh

penetration 8
durability- 3
dependability- 5
sharp before- 5
sharp after- 3
flight- 5
total score- 29
total penetration-8"


----------



## henro

sethro02 said:


> the results are in my signature...47th place...let me know if it doesnt open


Or get stopped by bone...


----------



## UTGrad

That are my reservations as well Henro but good gosh there are so many kills with Rage out there. I definitely wont be taking shoulder shots but I try not to do that anyways lol.

Go through that Rage kill thread on here. It was started in 2008. Unbelievable carnage pics and some big deer as well.


----------



## henro

UTGrad said:


> That are my reservations as well Henro but good gosh there are so many kills with Rage out there. I definitely wont be taking shoulder shots but I try not to do that anyways lol.
> 
> Go through that Rage kill thread on here. It was started in 2008. Unbelievable carnage pics and some big deer as well.


I shot them for 3 or 4 years. They do kill well as long as you don't encounter any bone. You hunt long enough though it's gonna happen. Nobody should try to hit bone but deer don't always pose like playboy playmates. I saw first hand what happens when you do though. That was with a 556gr FMJ at 259fps on a small doe. I shared the results in my Ashby arrow thread. I did kill a bunch of deer with them but every time the blades were wrecked and most couldn't even be removed.


----------



## sethro02

henro said:


> Or get stopped by bone...


haha woops I should have worded that different. I was referring to spreadsheet...rage 2 blade holds my biggest bow buck kill


----------



## henro

sethro02 said:


> haha woops I should have worded that different. I was referring to spreadsheet...rage 2 blade holds my biggest bow buck kill


Mine too lol


----------



## 0nepin

henro said:


> Mine too lol


Mine three ,haha.


----------



## sethro02

onepin you need to kill something with a frankenhead...no pressure, but hurry up!


----------



## 0nepin

sethro02 said:


> onepin you need to kill something with a frankenhead...no pressure, but hurry up!


I know,I can't let timmyz7 have all the fun.so far I have hunted 4 times and have seen deer each time .I'm going to get very serious starting this evening.I'm Hunting public land here in Fl and it's Extra tuff this Season.I got rained out in GA.I will kill one friday,I will be hunting all day.


----------



## sethro02

sweet good luck...im still waiting....................


----------



## Viper69

Yeah lets get something on the ground with those.


----------



## sethro02

just got 155 grain helix broadheads in the mail...not going to test them but these things are sweeeet!!!! 1 1/4" 2 blade single bevel! my total arrow weight with them is 520 grains,,,lets say the old glen del almost falls over everytime i hit it...these things do keep twisting as they penetrate, when you pull them out of the target they twist counter clockwise all the way out ( right bevel head)


----------



## Matt Musto

148 pages....holy s#$%


----------



## sethro02

Matt Musto said:


> 148 pages....holy s#$%


yea sorry....if you have questions just ask


----------



## Rothhar1

sethro02 said:


> yea sorry....if you have questions just ask


Hay seth you have a PM


----------



## wingmastr23

sethro02 said:


> yea sorry....if you have questions just ask


I have one....why isn't this a sticky?

The most informative broadhead testing on AT....


----------



## Viper69

wingmastr23 said:


> I have one....why isn't this a sticky?
> 
> The most informative broadhead testing on AT....


yeah at this point maybe it should be.


----------



## sethro02

wingmastr23 said:


> I have one....why isn't this a sticky?
> 
> The most informative broadhead testing on AT....


im assuming because their are people in the at community who dont want it a sticky...


----------



## wingmastr23

sethro02 said:


> im assuming because their are people in the at community who dont want it a sticky...


Well it should be - the time/effort put into this is awesome....thanks!!


----------



## sethro02

thank you sir....me and timmyz7 are putting something together as we speak that should top this


----------



## 0nepin

sethro02 said:


> thank you sir....me and timmyz7 are putting something together as we speak that should top this


This will be very informative.Can't wait!!!'nn


----------



## MarkBaHoi

Let me know if you need more heads to 'test'.

That red feather is on the way...save her for the new big bad super cool test!


----------



## 182gross

Z force from Wasp


----------



## sethro02

haha...the new test is stickied on the front page....everyone will be a part of this because i cant do it alone...the red feather im getting from mark i will test but then no more...this new thread will take up all of my time.


----------



## UTGrad

Is this the kill thread with broadhead? I really like this idea. I hope everyone participates to get good results.


----------



## sethro02

UTGrad said:


> Is this the kill thread with broadhead? I really like this idea. I hope everyone participates to get good results.


the stickied thread will have pics with and the numbered entry next to it so you can see the spreadsheet
i started a discussion thread to talk about that test


----------



## sethro02

mail call! Red Feather Razor Hawk 2 blade single bevel , 100 grain....not testing yet...need to make up some gel.


----------



## 0nepin

sethro02 said:


> titanium extreme
> View attachment 1413194


Nasty!!!


----------



## 0nepin

sethro02 said:


> slick trick standard
> View attachment 1416307


Cute


----------



## TimmyZ7

0nepin said:


> Cute


Lol. The titanium extreme is the real deal bro no doubt!


----------



## donkengine

I shot a 6 point with ST Mags and a doe with an Ulmer Edge. Do you want the details for the spreadsheet?

Also- where's your original spreadsheet that has the testing results from the gel block?


----------



## Gamikatsu

so... i hope this thread isn't dying... ohhhh thats right... deer season... Got it...


----------



## sethro02

Ha it may pick up..to the guy about spreadsheet...in my sig is both test results..pm me with any questions if u want


----------



## sethro02

if anybody has any ideas on what i can test next give me a shout. deer season is almost over and im already getting the itch to do something else. let me hear what you got. i know some wanted to see accuracy tests, different weighted arrows etc. so if their is anything else let me know


----------



## Cotton-Eye

Centaur!!


----------



## sethro02

Thats cool, how long is it

Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk 2


----------



## 0nepin

Still best dam thread ever.


----------



## sethro02

It has been brought to my attention that their seems to be some interest in testing all the new heads that have came out in 2013, inlcuding fixed, mechanical, as well as testing all deep six heads. So right now I'm getting the list together of all the heads i will need. once i get close to putting everything together i'll start the new thread call. 2013 Real Deal Broadhead Test. i'll be scoring it differently as well.it will also be filmed. hope you guys stay tuned for it


----------



## sethro02

it will also be performed close together so that it doesnt turn into alot of talking that has nothing to do with the test itself.


----------



## 0nepin

How will the scoring change ?


----------



## sethro02

getting rid of sharpness and flight score. sharpness is more opinion than anything and flight score is useless unless im shooting from 50 yards with a shooting machine. so it will include these:
penetration
durability
dependability. (mechanicals only)
new carnage score


----------



## bambikiller

i like it


----------



## JBudz

Can't wait to see this get underway. Just scrolled through this thread and read a LOT of stuff. Thank you for all of your hard work and dedication, to inform us on what we are actually spending our money on. I'm kind of disappointed to see the schwackers didn't perform that great. I just got a 3 pack of the 1.75", and I was really looking forward to them. Oh well, I'll give them a shot anyway.


----------



## sethro02

give em a shot man. you may have good luck with them. you would have to hit that shoulder/humerous bone perfect to make it cave in like it did. it could happen but you could also go a lifetime without it happening


----------



## JBudz

I'm hoping being in a stand, I'll miss the shoulder comepletely. This is my first season bow hunting, and I'm not tuned for broad heads yet otherwise I would use my muzzy mx3's. they are a tad high and right, but I don't want to risk a bad shot.


----------



## sethro02

mx3's are good heads, during the off season try getting it tuned though, look up the nuts and bolts of archery in the search...section 6-1 will walk you through tuning


----------



## mtn3531

sethro02 said:


> round 4 fixed aftermath
> View attachment 1412213


Did the Wac'Em not come with the brass retaining ring for the blades? I know the new ones do. Just didn't see it in your pic. I could care less if the blade came off, at 17" of penetration it made two holes lol.


----------



## sethro02

mtn3531 said:


> Did the Wac'Em not come with the brass retaining ring for the blades? I know the new ones do. Just didn't see it in your pic. I could care less if the blade came off, at 17" of penetration it made two holes lol.


Yes it had a ring, it got demolished , can't remember if it was brass, I think it was, it cracked and bent allowing the blades to slide back


----------



## bigbucks170

Toxic?


----------



## sethro02

bigbucks170 said:


> Toxic?


Was trying to get that for the 2013 test I did, which isn't on here any more


----------



## Rothhar1

sethro02 said:


> Yes it had a ring, it got demolished , can't remember if it was brass, I think it was, it cracked and bent allowing the blades to slide back


You can lead a horse to water but you cant make em drink .I can not believe the number of hunters who still swear by broken BHs .I guess the same guys who get slapped in the face at the bar over and over by every woman they use the lame lines and a pinch on the rump with in hopes that the next time it will work because it worked once in their life .


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## xcal1ber

I'm more excited to see the Slick Trick "Nuke" than anything.


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## jayson2984

Wish some could donate a real deal German Kinetic/Silver Flame. 










Sent from my SCH-I605 using Tapatalk 2


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## sethro02

jayson2984 said:


> Wish some could donate a real deal German Kinetic/Silver Flame.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my SCH-I605 using Tapatalk 2


I did, #19
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/lv?key=0AgJEvQwzfDRZdGxzdC15R0JIZDJGQ1J4bVpGV1pTWHc


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## jayson2984

O wow thanks I missed that when I looked it up yesterday. I only saw one other test with this head and it wasnt very good. Trying to see if they would be good for my elk hunt 


Thanks again.

Sent from my SCH-I605 using Tapatalk 2


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## sethro02

jayson2984 said:


> O wow thanks I missed that when I looked it up yesterday. I only saw one other test with this head and it wasnt very good. Trying to see if they would be good for my elk hunt
> 
> 
> Thanks again.
> 
> Sent from my SCH-I605 using Tapatalk 2


I'd save your money an get 6 other heads for the price of 3 silver flames


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## mtn3531

Shouldernuke! said:


> You can lead a horse to water but you cant make em drink .I can not believe the number of hunters who still swear by broken BHs .I guess the same guys who get slapped in the face at the bar over and over by every woman they use the lame lines and a pinch on the rump with in hopes that the next time it will work because it worked once in their life .


Maybe because not every hunter shoots ballistic gel or through particle board and plywood. I applaud the work that was done on this test and the newest test. That's a lot of time, money and dedication. Unfortunately it only takes a few keyboard commandos to wreck it, and I've seen a lot of the heads on that test that were broken being shot through the test medium absolutely wreak havoc on, get this, real live animals! Shocking I know, right? Shot placement is still the number one priority that should be concerned with and then any decent head will finish the animal off. I shoot super heavy single bevel broadheads out of trad gear and they work wonders. There's a reason why so many people shoot Rage heads, and they never fare well in any of these tests...guess that makes all of those hunters idiots too according to your logic.


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## jayson2984

sethro02 said:


> I'd save your money an get 6 other heads for the price of 3 silver flames


By no means discounting what you are saying bc you have handled more broad heads in a month than me in my entire life but I have 1 question, was that a silver flame from a dealer on here or did you purchase it yourself. They say there where some knock offs coming out of a popular bow hunting store. Sorry if this was covered but this thread is massive. Again thanks for your testing and time it takes to post all this info.

Sent from my SCH-I605 using Tapatalk 2


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## General RE LEE

"insert Twilight Zone theme song here"


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## sethro02

jayson2984 said:


> By no means discounting what you are saying bc you have handled more broad heads in a month than me in my entire life but I have 1 question, was that a silver flame from a dealer on here or did you purchase it yourself. They say there where some knock offs coming out of a popular bow hunting store. Sorry if this was covered but this thread is massive. Again thanks for your testing and time it takes to post all this info.
> 
> Sent from my SCH-I605 using Tapatalk 2


Silver flame was from dealer, IMO their were several heads that had better blade retention which is what surprised me, not by much but still a difference


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## sethro02

mtn3531 said:


> Maybe because not every hunter shoots ballistic gel or through particle board and plywood. I applaud the work that was done on this test and the newest test. That's a lot of time, money and dedication. Unfortunately it only takes a few keyboard commandos to wreck it, and I've seen a lot of the heads on that test that were broken being shot through the test medium absolutely wreak havoc on, get this, real live animals! Shocking I know, right? Shot placement is still the number one priority that should be concerned with and then any decent head will finish the animal off. I shoot super heavy single bevel broadheads out of trad gear and they work wonders. There's a reason why so many people shoot Rage heads, and they never fare well in any of these tests...guess that makes all of those hunters idiots too according to your logic.


I'm sure you haven't even read half this thread which is fine but I repeated myself several times that it was a durability test and that ALL heads tested would kill a animal with a good shot, I tried to replicate somewhat of a shoulder joint shot with the mediums I used, unfortunately I didn't have 100 dead deer to cut off shoulders to shoot.


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## Rothhar1

mtn3531 said:


> Maybe because not every hunter shoots ballistic gel or through particle board and plywood. I applaud the work that was done on this test and the newest test. That's a lot of time, money and dedication. Unfortunately it only takes a few keyboard commandos to wreck it, and I've seen a lot of the heads on that test that were broken being shot through the test medium absolutely wreak havoc on, get this, real live animals! Shocking I know, right? Shot placement is still the number one priority that should be concerned with and then any decent head will finish the animal off. I shoot super heavy single bevel broadheads out of trad gear and they work wonders. There's a reason why so many people shoot Rage heads, and they never fare well in any of these tests...guess that makes all of those hunters idiots too according to your logic.


your the one calling people idiots (I never did ) .


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## jayson2984

sethro02 said:


> Silver flame was from dealer, IMO their were several heads that had better blade retention which is what surprised me, not by much but still a difference


Well as sexy as it is I guess I will save my $100, stay with the shuttle Ts.

Sent from my SCH-I605 using Tapatalk 2


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## sethro02

jayson2984 said:


> Well as sexy as it is I guess I will save my $100, stay with the shuttle Ts.
> 
> Sent from my SCH-I605 using Tapatalk 2


If you like the convex style then check out the Solid. Cheaper and blade retention is awesome


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## jayson2984

sethro02 said:


> If you like the convex style then check out the Solid. Cheaper and blade retention is awesome


Thanks. That head had some great reviews other than yours as well. I guess I am a sucker for the look sometimes

Sent from my SCH-I605 using Tapatalk 2


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## chaded

sethro02 said:


> If you like the convex style then check out the Solid. Cheaper and blade retention is awesome


Its says on their website they are $80.00 for a 3 pack of solids. Is there somewhere else that is cheaper than that? That is right around what the GK cost isn't it?


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## sethro02

chaded said:


> Its says on their website they are $80.00 for a 3 pack of solids. Is there somewhere else that is cheaper than that? That is right around what the GK cost isn't it?


Oh I must have got a discount, holy crap I thought they were $54?


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## jayson2984

chaded said:


> Its says on their website they are $80.00 for a 3 pack of solids. Is there somewhere else that is cheaper than that? That is right around what the GK cost isn't it?


Think that's the going rate. GK same or a little more but some say these are better and so did the test here.Pretty sure there are some backorder issues on these heads maybe due to being purchased by elite. Not sure

Sent from my SCH-I605 using Tapatalk 2


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## sethro02

Oh yea the helix was $54 for 3 , my bad, which are awesome heads too btw


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## chaded

sethro02 said:


> Oh I must have got a discount, holy crap I thought they were $54?


I thought they were cheaper than 80 too but when you said something I went and checked and saw they were 80 bucks. Didn't know if someone else sold them a little cheaper or something. I have been contemplating going with the 150 VPA's 1/4" since I think I finally have the arrow set-up spine wise to do it now.


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## sethro02

Pm sent chaded


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## chaded

Hey clear your inbox out buddy. Lol.


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## jkm97

sethro02 said:


> Oh yea the helix was $54 for 3 , my bad, which are awesome heads too btw


Really impressed with the Helix performance on your test. I may run a 155 through some deer with my Black Widow this fall. Not sure how tough to resharpen they are, but Strickland makes a sharpener designed for that head.


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## thwackaddict

So have you seen those Toxic broadheads? At least I think they are new. They have 6 blades(3 pairs) that form circles. Looks like if they went all the way through they would bleed em out quick. Penetration??????


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## sethro02

jkm97 said:


> Really impressed with the Helix performance on your test. I may run a 155 through some deer with my Black Widow this fall. Not sure how tough to resharpen they are, but Strickland makes a sharpener designed for that head.


Easy as cake to sharpen man, I bout a knock of style of a handheld kme sharpener from gander for 30 bucks and it works perfect on that, I used to use a g5 stone on them and that work great too. You won't be disappointed with the 155 version , bigger cut and .072" thick


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## sethro02

thwackaddict said:


> So have you seen those Toxic broadheads? At least I think they are new. They have 6 blades(3 pairs) that form circles. Looks like if they went all the way through they would bleed em out quick. Penetration??????


Yea I have seen them but I never got a reply email about sending one to me so I quit asking. IMO penetration would be no problem on a perfect double lunger but anything else id be curious about


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## jayson2984

I just picture them filling up, kinda like a core sample, I believe someone mentioned, and coming to an abrupt halt.


Question on the helix, has there been any testing done to show how much the spin in relationship to a traditional design? I am really thinking about trying these with some turbo nocks.
Sent from my SCH-I605 using Tapatalk 2


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## jayson2984

http://anarchyarchery.com/anarchy-broadhead-arrows

Ever test these?

Sent from my SCH-I605 using Tapatalk 2


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## bjmostel

For the carnage score it is cutting surface x penetration. How are you calculating cutting surface?


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## sethro02

bjmostel said:


> For the carnage score it is cutting surface x penetration. How are you calculating cutting surface?


I measure the cutting surface of each blade and add together


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## sethro02

jayson2984 said:


> I just picture them filling up, kinda like a core sample, I believe someone mentioned, and coming to an abrupt halt.
> 
> 
> Question on the helix, has there been any testing done to show how much the spin in relationship to a traditional design? I am really thinking about trying these with some turbo nocks.
> Sent from my SCH-I605 using Tapatalk 2


The helix spun the most out of all the single bevels I tested, it spun almost one full rotation through testing medium, the others were roughly half a turn


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## bjmostel

sethro02 said:


> I measure the cutting surface of each blade and add together


So you factor in the width of the blade?


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## Gideon007

Seth,

Thoughts on Helix 155 vs solid 150gr 3 blade VPA

Thanks


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## cgs1967

I'm definitely trying the new Toxic broad heads. They have a cutting diameter around 5.5". I have yet to try them but they say they fly like a field tip.


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## 0nepin

Let us know how they work for you.very interesting design to say the least.not my type of head ,I like something with more reach but I'm sure the toxic will leave a hole.


cgs1967 said:


> I'm definitely trying the new Toxic broad heads. They have a cutting diameter around 5.5". I have yet to try them but they say they fly like a field tip.


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## sethro02

Gideon007 said:


> Seth,
> 
> Thoughts on Helix 155 vs solid 150gr 3 blade VPA
> 
> Thanks


Penetration, helix ( not by much)
Toughness, Vpa , ( helix is aluminum ferrule until 200 grains but he is changing the 155 ferrule to steel, but for no it goes to Vpa, haven't had problems with helix)
Accuracy, tie

Both heads are badass IMO, and both company's are great to work with


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## sethro02

bjmostel said:


> So you factor in the width of the blade?


No, measure the actually cutting surface of each blade, that's the standard way to measure cutting surface. So if its a 3 blade and each blade is 1" long and there are 3 blades then it has 3" of cutting surface,


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## Gideon007

sethro02 said:


> Penetration, helix ( not by much)
> Toughness, Vpa , ( helix is aluminum ferrule until 200 grains but he is changing the 155 ferrule to steel, but for no it goes to Vpa, haven't had problems with helix)
> Accuracy, tie
> 
> Both heads are badass IMO, and both company's are great to work with



Thanks Seth

I am a huge fan of the VPAs but am interested in the single bevel design as well. How difficult would it be to sharpen the Helix on a flat stone? I wouldn't want to buy special sharpening tools just for the Helix. 

Another question: I don't see the 125gr VPA 3 blade on your spreadsheet even though you did test it. Am I missing something?


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## bjmostel

sethro02 said:


> No, measure the actually cutting surface of each blade, that's the standard way to measure cutting surface. So if its a 3 blade and each blade is 1" long and there are 3 blades then it has 3" of cutting surface,


Ok yes that's how I agree it should be done (not really area just cutting length) but I was looking at your spreadsheet and the carnage numbers (Cutting length X Penetration) didn't seem to add up based on your penetration numbers you listed and cutting length of the blades I found. Could you include the cutting length of all blades in the spreadsheet. Some heads seemed to have way higher carnage numbers than others with the same penetration and similar cutting surface.


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## eltaco

It's interesting that the Solids rated #3 last year, and this year its near the bottom in the D6 category with significantly less penetration. Has the testing method changed?


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## sethro02

eltaco said:


> It's interesting that the Solids rated #3 last year, and this year its near the bottom in the D6 category with significantly less penetration. Has the testing method changed?


penetration was nearly the same, 2012 test it had 10'', 2013 d6 test it had 11", the reason the solid d6 score is lower than others is the carnage score that was added. other than that it was almost identical in both tests.


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## acesbettor

Awesome thread. Thanks for the time, effort and money spent. Much appreciated!


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## acesbettor

jayson2984 said:


> http://anarchyarchery.com/anarchy-broadhead-arrows
> 
> Ever test these?
> 
> Sent from my SCH-I605 using Tapatalk 2


Would definitely like to see these as well


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## buckhunter1

Why won't you test the Toxics? Lot's of pages to read.. Would love to hear.


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## sethro02

acesbettor said:


> Would definitely like to see these as well


im getting an anarchy next week in mail...should have several new heads to test just after deer season, or during depending on when I kill


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## sethro02

buckhunter1 said:


> Why won't you test the Toxics? Lot's of pages to read.. Would love to hear.


I would, but back when I tried to get ahold of them I never heard back, i'll have to just buy some when someone near here gets some in


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## bjmostel

I'd like to see the cutting length/area column added because multiplying the lengths I've calculated by the penetration you got doesn't give me the carnage numbers on the spreadsheet. Such as the Slick trick 150.... 1-1/8 of cutting diameter with 4 blades gives you 2.25 then multiplied by the 11" of penetration you get 24.75 not 35.2 that's on the spreadsheet.


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## sethro02

bjmostel said:


> I'd like to see the cutting length/area column added because multiplying the lengths I've calculated by the penetration you got doesn't give me the carnage numbers on the spreadsheet. Such as the Slick trick 150.... 1-1/8 of cutting diameter with 4 blades gives you 2.25 then multiplied by the 11" of penetration you get 24.75 not 35.2 that's on the spreadsheet.


when assembled, each blade measures right at .75", that times 4 is 3....I also accounted for the tip of the ferrule which measured right under .25'' all added up came to 35.2


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## bjmostel

sethro02 said:


> when assembled, each blade measures right at .75", that times 4 is 3....I also accounted for the tip of the ferrule which measured right under .25'' all added up came to 35.2


The effective cutting area is perpendicular to the base of the broad head not parallel to the length of the blade.


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## sethro02

bjmostel said:


> The effective cutting area is perpendicular to the base of the broad head not parallel to the length of the blade.


I measured the actual part of the blade doing the "cutting on all the heads...this was covered awhile back, I asked everyones opinion on what they want measured, we went with cutting surface


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## bjmostel

sethro02 said:


> I measured the actual part of the blade doing the "cutting on all the heads...this was covered awhile back, I asked everyones opinion on what they want measured, we went with cutting surface


Ok I understand you went with what everyone said but I personally don't see how two heads with the same cutting diameter, number of blades and penetration can have different carnage numbers just because one has a steeper blade angle than the other. The amount of tissue cut would be the same.


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## zmanastronomy

For sake of argument, lets say you had a broad head that had a 1" cutting diameter, but it had ten 1/2" blades. That, according to some theories is a 5" cutting surface.
Now, lets take a broad head that has a 5" cutting diameter, and has two 2 1/2" blades. Which one is going to do the most damage?
No matter how much cutting surface you can say you have, 1"dia. is 1"dia..
I'll take the two bladed 5" diameter over the ten bladed 5" cutting surface that is 1" dia. anytime.


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## sethro02

if or when I do more testing all im going to put are penetration measurements, durability, dependability (did they work yes or no) and then just give actual measurements, diameter, cutting surface, number of blades, etc. and let you guys decide what you want. im simply just going to tell you how far it went in, did it work, is it junk, and the size


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## sethro02

I guess im a dr ashby, mechanical advantage kind of guy. so in my personal opinion when I choose heads a lot of it is based off mechanical advantage. not wanting to get into that on this thread but everything you guys say and opinions are noted


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## bjmostel

sethro02 said:


> if or when I do more testing all im going to put are penetration measurements, durability, dependability (did they work yes or no) and then just give actual measurements, diameter, cutting surface, number of blades, etc. and let you guys decide what you want. im simply just going to tell you how far it went in, did it work, is it junk, and the size


Sorry if I came off as an ass I just didn't see where the numbers were coming from but you explained it and did it how everyone wanted. Thanks for your work.


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## sethro02

bjmostel said:


> Sorry if I came off as an ass I just didn't see where the numbers were coming from but you explained it and did it how everyone wanted. Thanks for your work.


you didn't, plus its tough to read through hundreds of pages to see whats been talked about, no big deal. when I test again it will be simplified. I should have done it simple all along


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## rut hunt

If only , if only we had the capability to measure the effort to open a mechanical And someway to get a deerelastic entry hole of mechanicals.... Much appreciated sethro for all your hard work not a complaint in the world of your test. O except my broadheads never win best of the best haha


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## sethro02

rut hunt said:


> If only , if only we had the capability to measure the effort to open a mechanical And someway to get a deerelastic entry hole of mechanicals.... Much appreciated sethro for all your hard work not a complaint in the world of your test. O except my broadheads never win best of the best haha


I'm working on something besides the contraption from last time


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## mmcan

Did you say there's a "Sticky" for carnage pics?


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## 0nepin

Bring back the best thread ever


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## gregcoya

x50!!


0nepin said:


> Bring back the best thread ever


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## phantom1

Thumbs up Seth! Thank you for all this testing. Broadheads are probably the most interesting equipment subject among archers....and the most emotional!lol!


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## TimmyZ7

Yessir!


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## bambikiller

Bumpitty bump bump


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## Michigandr

I got lost, where is the link to the spread sheet? Great thread Seth, thanks for all the effort.


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