# Indoor Arrow Selection



## nockemout207 (Nov 26, 2014)

I have been reading a lot lately on proper target arrow length... I.E. full length shafts for added weight and stability or an arrow that barely clears the rest for a shorter faster arrow. For the last few years I have shot a victory x-killer and cut them even with the outside of my riser. But the more I learn and read it leads me to wander if I'm missing something by not shooting a full length shaft or if I should go with the shortest length possible. Just want to pick your all's brains!


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## stoz (Aug 23, 2002)

Like to hear this too. I have tried node tuning which ends up with pretty short arrows and now have gone to almost fell length and would say full length seems to shoot better. Imo


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

I probably won't help a bit...

I shot off the string for years, 29" draw. With a overdraw riser I shot arrows of shaft cut length of 25 7/8" long and they shot great. I've used Easton 2413s of shaft cut length of 29" and they shot great. The arrows I have now Muddy Outdoors HT3 .400 spine have proved indoor accurate with point weights of 80, 132, 147, 172, 192 grs. All nicely accurate, but the 132 gr point weight seemed something of forgiving, better overall.

I've had a lot of Indoor arrows (thin, medium fat, fat, 344 spine to 500 spine) proven accurate out the same bow, it's just a matter of setting up the arrow for the bow or tweaking the bow a bit or both the arrow and bow.

Field....I used CXL 2-250 with 4" vanes and a insert and 75 gr screw in point and placed and won every time out.... Arrows out in the garage and I'm still drinking coffee and here or I'd go measure them. 

Computer programs work and then they don't tell all. Ontarget2 gave my CXL Pro 150s too weak of spine for my set up. Emailed Carbon Express and they said the CXL Pro 150 was too weak for my set up. The CLX Pro 150 proved the one of the most accurate arrows I ever shot. How weak? IBO legal at 282 grs, but shot up close, 10 yards, they'd snap off in the target. A ASA Pro used the CXL Pro 150s with point weight 50 grs heavier and they shot accurate for him (finished in the top 10 many times). A while back Tim Gillingham was rumored to shoot arrows of "0" FOC and said he shot great. 

Just shot this recently 398/400 using 2 bows. 322 gr arrow and FOC of 6.04"


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## rohpenguins (Dec 2, 2012)

I shoot static over spined uncut arrows for indoors with 250 grains up front I played with a lot of different combos and this combo is more forgiving for my set up. I like a heavy indoor arrows and like to slow them down.


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## Joe Schnur (Mar 22, 2012)

My advice comes from the pen state champion and multiple record holder bob reedinger he told me 2712 full length i cheeted had to cut an inch off to get them in my arrow case and 300 grain points I use CAP and love them use feathers 4 inch helical fletch not to interfere with your rest went to Vegas and found out it is a dominant setup little slow due to weight but we don't shoot moving targets so stable flight is more important. 

On the carbon front I have seen 6 blow up for different reasons only 2 were the arrow but carbon through the hand is not in my future plans so aluminum it is plus they are straighter and less expensive so win win. Again just my humble opinion


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## Mahly (Dec 18, 2002)

I think the length will have more to do with spine than speed.
Stiff shaft, shoot longer arrows, not stiff enough, shorten them up.


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## stoz (Aug 23, 2002)

Im shooting almost full length 2712 with 300 grains in front.


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## N7709K (Dec 17, 2008)

It depends on cyclic rate of the shafts- carbons you can cut shorter and see improvements. Alu's you want to leave longer and get node position at or infront of the blade.


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## stoz (Aug 23, 2002)

From what I've played with You can't get node even close to rest wo cutting them quite a bit shorter.


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## injati (Dec 5, 2011)

N7709K said:


> It depends on cyclic rate of the shafts- carbons you can cut shorter and see improvements. Alu's you want to leave longer and get node position at or infront of the blade.


Apologies for my ignorance, but what exactly is meant by "cyclic rate of the shafts" and "node position"?


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## RickT (Mar 14, 2009)

stoz said:


> Im shooting almost full length 2712 with 300 grains in front.


 Your arrows might be too weak. According to Easton's Target Chart you need to add 3lbs to your bow weight for every 25gr of point weight over 100gr. 200/25=8. 8 X 3lbs=24lbs. Add 24lbs to your current draw weight and see where you are on the arrow chart. I'll bet you're not on the chart, neither was I. Yesterday I cut my 2712's from 31" shaft length to 30" shaft to nock groove and tightened my groups a lot.


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## N7709K (Dec 17, 2008)

the frequency that the shaft flexes at; the carbon has a higher frequency(cyclic rate) than alu.. at a point that will play in.

I wanna know how yall are node tuning so as to not being able to get the node at or infront of the rest with a longer shaft.... i can get the node on my 2712's before my blade with them 32" cut to cut and 300gr tips, and i'm not running a jesse mount....


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

Joe Schnur said:


> My advice comes from the pen state champion and multiple record holder bob reedinger he told me 2712 full length i cheeted had to cut an inch off to get them in my arrow case and 300 grain points I use CAP and love them use feathers 4 inch helical fletch not to interfere with your rest went to Vegas and found out it is a dominant setup little slow due to weight but we don't shoot moving targets so stable flight is more important.
> 
> On the carbon front I have seen 6 blow up for different reasons only 2 were the arrow but carbon through the hand is not in my future plans so aluminum it is plus they are straighter and less expensive so win win. Again just my humble opinion


Exceptionally heavy arrows are slow. Those shooting Indoors, especially dedicated Indoor shooters, have bows of far less draw weight than most want to believe. Try in the 40 pound to under 50 pounds.

15 years I've been shooting carbon arrows and have yet to have one blow up in the bow or from the bow to the target. I've had them snap off in the target. I did have a carbon split due to not detecting the shaft cracked, so my fault, not the arrows. I had Robin Hooded this particular arrow and didn't realize it, just wondered why my second arrow bounced out of the target. I saw the plastic nock spread was all and put in a new nock. The next shot split the shaft. Figure something of 15,000 shots per year times 15 years, 225,000 shots and -1- accident caused by me....


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## Sasquech (Dec 15, 2014)

Those are the kind of examples I was talking about cracked shaft not detected . Arrow snapping off in the hand while pulling from target . And driving a nock down a ganged arrow and cutting the string all undetected damage if shot perfectly they don't shoot bad I cannot get large diameter carbon to tune for me not sure why. I just stick with aluminum indoors


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## stoz (Aug 23, 2002)

RickT said:


> Your arrows might be too weak. According to Easton's Target Chart you need to add 3lbs to your bow weight for every 25gr of point weight over 100gr. 200/25=8. 8 X 3lbs=24lbs. Add 24lbs to your current draw weight and see where you are on the arrow chart. I'll bet you're not on the chart, neither was I. Yesterday I cut my 2712's from 31" shaft length to 30" shaft to nock groove and tightened my groups a lot.


I only have a chart to go by was hoping to talk to my shop and put it in computer. I am shooting 59# at 29.5" draw on an e35. So anyone can put that in theprogram would appreciate it.


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## stoz (Aug 23, 2002)

N7709K said:


> the frequency that the shaft flexes at; the carbon has a higher frequency(cyclic rate) than alu.. at a point that will play in.
> 
> I wanna know how yall are node tuning so as to not being able to get the node at or infront of the rest with a longer shaft.... i can get the node on my 2712's before my blade with them 32" cut to cut and 300gr tips, and i'm not running a jesse mount....


I find the node the way GRIV shows where you pluck the arrow with point in it and cut it down until it doesn't vibrate. Doing that you end up with a pretty short Very stiff shaft.
and how far before the blade are we talking. I was shown to do it until you're on the blade.


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## ron w (Jan 5, 2013)

the problem is that every time you cut the shaft, the node changes location, so it is easy to initiate a vicious circle of cutting and node testing that ends up with the arrow being too short and stiff. that's why many just plunk heavy points in full length shafts and tune the bow from there.


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## bowhunter2232 (Jan 5, 2009)

Any one try the new easton triumph


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

nockemout207 said:


> . For the last few years I have shot a *victory x-killer* and cut them even with the outside of my riser. But the more I learn and read it leads me to wander if I'm missing something by not shooting a full length shaft or if I should go with the shortest length possible. Just want to pick your all's brains!


Victory X Killers...^&*%^#@! Story time; I've had 3 dozen and all proved pretty darned good. BUT! I cut my two dozen to what I wanted for length, little over 1" in front of the rest launch arm. Explained more, so where the glue-in point sleeve would end inside the shaft was in front of the launch arm. I used the then Victory suggested 150 gr points, only points they had for the X Killers. I did the same for another person who's bow was set to 40 some pounds. He sighted in somewhat decently and then shot a 5 Spot around for a 299 and a good amount of Xs. Later, in comes a PSE Money Maker and with X Killers already set up with 150 gr points. It wouldn't tune. The arrow giving movie star Flipper a run for his money. Yeah, porpoising. Nothing I did made a difference. I called Victory. Victory couldn't understand why their arrow was behaving so, tried what they suggested and told them nothing worked.
The PSE Money Maker was set up 3D and having some draw weight, 70 pounds of it. Well, 70 pounds was wearing me out after me being used to 55 and 56 pounds. So I turned the draw weight down and actually saw some improvement, but not near what was needed. Accurate, yes it was. I made some adjustments based on this and seemed better, but still porpoising. I turned it back up what the owner had and the porpoising seemed the same. The owner returned and gave it test hop. It proved super accurate from 15 to 30 yards, just the arrow flipping it's way to the target. The owner accepted the best I could do and went to that weekends ASA ProAm. He either took 3rd in some off event or 3rd in his class, Open B. Those he shot with could see his arrow porpoising and told him they did. Didn't stop him from getting 3rd place. Knowing a wide range of 3D people he asked around and was told too much point weight. He went to 100 gr points and his arrow flew straight as they should and accurately as ever.

So, Victory didn't know what the problem was with their X Killer and at the time they only had 150 grs for the X Killer, arrived at by a computer program no doubt. Like stabilizers, have a bunch of point weights and find out what gives the best results.....

I shoot the below arrow with just a 80 gr glue-in point for 3D.

Picture; HTA arrow, HT3, .400 spine, 47 gr insert with 85, 100, 125 and 145 gr screw in points. Bow, 28 1/4" draw set to 55 pounds.
Believe what you want, but the only thing I did was adjust for elevation. Windage did not change as what the normal rule dictates.


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## N7709K (Dec 17, 2008)

You move the shaft along the edge to find the deadspot and mark the shaft... You don't cut the shafts down to find the node....

Doesn't really matter... Putting the node at the blade helps, but it's not as important of keeping the node infront of the blade.


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## stoz (Aug 23, 2002)

N7709K said:


> You move the shaft along the edge to find the deadspot and mark the shaft... You don't cut the shafts down to find the node....
> 
> Doesn't really matter... Putting the node at the blade helps, but it's not as important of keeping the node infront of the blade.


The node changes as you cut the arrow down.


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## N7709K (Dec 17, 2008)

Correct... But you don't cut the shaft down to find the node... You pick a length, pick a point weight, find and mark the node, build and tune the setup. When you cut the shafts down you go through the process again. But you don't cut the shafts to put the node at the blade


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## stoz (Aug 23, 2002)

N7709K said:


> Correct... But you don't cut the shaft down to find the node... You pick a length, pick a point weight, find and mark the node, build and tune the setup. When you cut the shafts down you go through the process again. But you don't cut the shafts to put the node at the blade


So as long as the node is in front that's the important thing? And how close to rest is optimum? Thanks for info. Btw


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## hoytlifer (Mar 28, 2009)

When I built my 2712s, I used 300 grain top hats from full length all the way down to 28" in one inch increments. I saw no difference in arrow flight or grouping other than highs and lows due to overall arrow weight. So I went with the 28" just so they don't stick so far out of my quiver!


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## Davik (Apr 16, 2003)

bowhunter2232 said:


> Any one try the new easton triumph


Yes...don't waste your money!


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## bowhunter2232 (Jan 5, 2009)

Thanks.


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## MikeR (Apr 2, 2004)

hoytlifer said:


> When I built my 2712s, I used 300 grain top hats from full length all the way down to 28" in one inch increments. I saw no difference in arrow flight or grouping other than highs and lows due to overall arrow weight. So I went with the 28" just so they don't stick so far out of my quiver!


This this the same experience I had. Shooting 54#, and 28" DL, with D loop and hinge. It's much easier to walk through a line of shooters with 28" arrows in your quiver than with full length arrows in your quiver.


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## N7709K (Dec 17, 2008)

For those cutting them down to 28" shaft length... What inner counts are you putting up?


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## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

I have limited experience with setting up indoor specific arrows but this year I cut my gold tip xxx shafts to 30 inches and I put 150 grain points in them and I shot them bare shaft for a day or so and tuned my indoor bow to them. I then fletched them with 2 inch shield cut feathers and started shooting. I am shooting better with them than I ever have but I am also a better shooter this year in general so I can't really say it is the arrows, They do seem to shoot really well and I am not hardly at all. It seems like they just want to go into the center regardless of what I am doing.

I didn't really have any good reasons for cutting them to 30 inches other than last year I shot 32 inch full shaft length and this year I noticed a few pro shooters cutting them to 30 inches in the reading I had done so i thought I would try it. I used 150 grain points because that is the heaviest that gold tip offers.

I will say that I am using shrewd bushings and easton deep six nocks and I really really really like them, they simply get the job done and you never have to mess with them.


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## MikeR (Apr 2, 2004)

N7709K said:


> For those cutting them down to 28" shaft length... What inner counts are you putting up?


Inner count is more a measure of operator proficiency. Using 2712's with 300 grains, cut to 28" (about an inch in front of the riser), I have had very good luck with arrow flight. I shot them through the hooter shooter and they will shoot 30 inners. I personally have only gotten 25 out of them, but when your on the down hill side of 60, that felt like a good day. My results may not apply to everyone. There are a large number of variables that can start an over spined arrow out on a bad path.


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## N7709K (Dec 17, 2008)

six of one, half doz of another... i prefer to use inner count (group size) as a measure for how well a setup is working. when building a setup you will see a ramp up, a plateau, and a ramp down in inner counts/group size; at that plateau the setup is "ideal" to start group tuning. For 27series indoor setups i've never had any luck getting acceptable results out of under 30" shafts.. and i've only found two setups that print as tight as a fita legal setup (my preferred choice)...


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