# Question for the I&A Crowd...Is a comfortable bow an accurate bow?



## cbrunson (Oct 25, 2010)

My opinion yes. You can however get comfortable with a bow that has more forgiving attributes, and shoot it more accurately.


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## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

Lazy Boy recliner comfort No, performance based comfort Yes.

To me my bowtech specialist is a good example of a bow that I have shot both ways with maximum comfort and with performance based comfort. When I have shot it as a 50 lb bow in the normal 75% letoff setting it is a dream to shoot and I always enjoyed sitting in the valley against the wall and not pulling into the wall because I just felt so relaxed. 

Now with the same bow I bumped the poundage up a few pounds and I put it into the 65% letoff setting and then I also learned to shoot the bow with a certain amount of back tension preload in my system so I wasn't just sitting next to the wall, I am now well into the wall. 

My overall shooting performance with that second setting isn't as lazy boy recliner comfy but it produces so much better shooting and it is still pretty sweet and in fact I prefer the feel over the super comfy sit in the valley feel.


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## Lazarus (Sep 19, 2005)

I like to shoot lots of weight. It's been my experience that I can shoot more weight more accurately than the bow can. In other words, I've had to somewhat abandon a "feel" that I like in order to get the performance I'm looking for. 

Think of it this way, if you hang two and a half pounds off of a rod sticking straight back and down from a riser, at some point isn't that going potentially have an adverse effect on the bows performance?


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## grantmac (May 31, 2007)

I think this could be separated into bows which are physically comfortable and mentally comfortable.

Low holding weight bows with fairly light mass and the DL on the long side are physically comfortable but they require constant vigilance to shoot well.
Higher holding weight, higher mass bows which are just right or a touch short can be physically demanding but they might not be quite so mentally tough to shoot.

I guess it's a question of what makes you comfortable. For me sitting there all day holding 10# and looking at a large float that I can't reduce is far more draining then holding a good amount of weight and seeing the pin basically stopped even if I can't maintain it for that long.

-Grant


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## RCR_III (Mar 19, 2011)

Yes. I've had both types of bows recently. My Pro Comp Elite shot great scores, but I had to really put some effort in to get them. My Podium X Elite shoots great scores as well, but I don't have to put in a fraction of the effort. It just fits and feels much better and is more forgiving for me.


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## Rick! (Aug 10, 2008)

RCR_III said:


> Yes. I've had both types of bows recently. My Pro Comp Elite shot great scores, but I had to really put some effort in to get them. My Podium X Elite shoots great scores as well, but I don't have to put in a fraction of the effort. It just fits and feels much better and is more forgiving for me.


Similar experience here; my PCE XL shoots good but it has required me to adapt to it. It also "likes" a higher energy shot and doesn't reward marginal process shots. (I hate scoring a X and getting my forearm smacked just 'cause I held a tad too long). Comfortable? Fair, but not anywhere near a Pro Edge. My old Dominator fit great, shot good and I could use a low energy shot to score. For me, I haven't found a target bow yet that I can feel comfortable with from the get-go. 

RCR, does the Podium fit perfectly in your hand like an Edge does?

Here's something to ponder: I've surmised that a few individuals, like maybe some pro staff and OEM owners get their favorite traits installed on bows and we choose to like, adapt to or dislike the results. Grips, or bow handles, are very reflective of this in my opinion/experience. What's everyone else's opinion?


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## RCR_III (Mar 19, 2011)

I like how the Podium feels in my hand. The grip with the 0 insert installed feels angle wise like all my other Hoyt's. I have the 4 degree grip on it now though. To me it gives me a pocket feeling to it at the top of my grip and I really like that along with the angle it puts my wrist at.


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## Lazarus (Sep 19, 2005)

Good discussion.

My original post was inadequate. What I should have asked was take a bow, any bow, pick the make/model/year. Is the best setup the setup that is the most comfortable? Or is it safe to assume that we have to set the bow up to shoot? And that could be two different setups of the same exact bow. 

I'm a firm believer that I have to do what the bow tells me to do (to make it shoot.) And that's not always what I want to do (to make it comfortable.) Hope that clarifies a bit.


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## RCR_III (Mar 19, 2011)

I feel that there's a geometry out there for everyone. When it's found, it is both comfortable and shoot able. The hard part is finding that geometry.


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## cbrunson (Oct 25, 2010)

RCR_III said:


> I feel that there's a geometry out there for everyone. When it's found, it is both comfortable and shoot able. The hard part is finding that geometry.


Do you shoot the shorter PXE?


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## RCR_III (Mar 19, 2011)

Yes the 37.


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## TheTracker (Sep 11, 2009)

My goal is to be relaxed as possible during my shot sequence and a comfortable bow makes that possible. When i draw my bow back to full draw its like putting on a custom tailored suit, It just feels and fits perfectly.


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## EPLC (May 21, 2002)

I firmly believe that the bow "can" have an effect on one's performance. I've had bows that just plain would not shoot for me no matter what I did to set them up. I've had others that were very forgiving in just about every reasonable setup. It used to be that the higher let-off bows were more comfortable but I shot the 65% bows better, much better. With the Brunson process I'm liking a softer wall but prior to this I preferred a hard cable wall, but hated a hard stop.

For a recent example: Dominator Max and Supra Max vs. Dominator Pro and Supra ME. I prefer the older PSE's with the solid cable rod over the Max with the Flex Guard. For me they just shoot better and I've heard others with the same opinion.


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## montigre (Oct 13, 2008)

RCR_III said:


> I feel that there's a geometry out there for everyone. When it's found, it is both comfortable and shoot able. The hard part is finding that geometry.


I agree with this statement, especially if your a shooter who is also working to overcome or manage a medical issue that affects their shot process. 

With bad shoulders, I have become very aware that not every bow will fit a shooter well, and have become very picky about the bows I use. I am also a firm believer that one should not attempt to alter their body or form to fit a bow, but should always strive to make the bow fit the shooter. This has caused me to go through much experimentation to find a combination of riser geometry and cam style that I can use to further my shooting. While this has been a very daunting process that has resulted in several bow trials and created a few frankenbuilds in order to get the right feel, it has also taught me a lot about how bows work and what can be done to make them more forgiving for a person who may not have the physical capabilities as most. 

So to answer the OP, yes, the bow has to be set up for the shooter but also has to be set up to perform at it's optimum level; otherwise, why bother if you're a competitor.


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## nochance (Nov 27, 2008)

But doesn't all this talk go against the Gospel everyone preaches "It's not the bow!" ??


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## Rick! (Aug 10, 2008)

nochance said:


> But doesn't all this talk go against the Gospel everyone preaches "It's not the bow!" ??


Certainly every bow has the potential to shoot great. But, if you don't get along with your dance partner, how long before you find a new one? 

I had a Supra Max and really "wanted" to get along with it. Me and her didn't get along and down the road it went. Funny thing is, the guy who bought it also couldn't dance with it. Sometimes it just works that way.

OTOH, once you really commit to a bow, it's all about learning how it wants you to shoot it. Every new bow I get teaches me a bit more about listening and feeling what it wants/needs to perform well.


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## nochance (Nov 27, 2008)

Rick,
I agree 100%. But i've been told for the last 3 years shooting brand 1,2 and 3 that it wasn't the bow. They said I was getting older and I don't practice enough. I went back to brand 4 and lo and behold started shooting my best 5 spot scores ever. I've made other changes along the way and I know 1000's of people can shoot brand 1,2 and 3 but for whatever reason them and I didn't gel. I'm now working on the last sentence of your post.


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## Mahly (Dec 18, 2002)

It's not the bow.....but it is how you and the bow work together.

The only thing I have noticed as far as comfort vs. accuracy is that bows with very low holding weight are MUCH easier to torque. Other than that, if it's comfortable, to me it seems to work best.

FIT, I have found, is as important as anything. When something fits properly, it's bound to be more comfortable, and repeatable.

Laz, when you say you need to do what the bow tells you to do instead of what is "comfortable" Can you give some examples of what is uncomfortable but more accurate in your set-up? Not sure what I can do for set-up that would make any particular bow more or less comfortable other than holding weight, side balance and maybe grip. And I'll say that I do find it better for me to set the side stab so the bubble wants to be level without any input from me.


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## Lazarus (Sep 19, 2005)

Mahly said:


> Laz, when you say you need to do what the bow tells you to do instead of what is "comfortable" Can you give some examples of what is uncomfortable but more accurate in your set-up? Not sure what I can do for set-up that would make any particular bow more or less comfortable other than holding weight, side balance and maybe grip. And I'll say that I do find it better for me to set the side stab so the bubble wants to be level without any input from me.


Sure. Be glad to. I'll try to be brief and I may leave out some details. Recently I found myself struggling to make a particular bow shoot. Everything pointed toward having a perfectly setup bow. It just wouldn't shoot. (For my part, I was shooting it better than any bow I've shot in my life, but the groups at 40-70 were totally unacceptable.) So I went to the paper tuner to see what the arrows were doing as they came out of the bow. (I was only doing this for information purposes, I don't normally use paper to setup a bow.) What I found was this; the only way I could get a bullet hole was to induce torque into the grip. When I did so I could make the bow shoot a perfect hole and I hadn't turned a screw on the bow. Seeing as how I shoot a neutral grip I told myself there was no way I was going to induce torque into the bow and try to repeat it every time. I'd sell the bow first. 

The above scenario was one where a comfortable bow (to me) was not an accurate bow. 

Moving forward, I figured out what to do to make the bow shoot without torquing it. But to do so has caused me to adapt to the bow. I don't believe there was a single screw I could have turned on the bow, rest, or yokes (if that were possible) to make it shoot the way *I* wanted to shoot it. I haven't got it perfected yet, but I'm nearly there I believe.


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## reylamb (Feb 5, 2003)

nochance said:


> But doesn't all this talk go against the Gospel everyone preaches "It's not the bow!" ??


But it isn't the bow.

I had a bow I just could not for the life of me get comfortable with, and just did not shoot well at all..

A buddy bought the same bow, and shot some of his best scores ever with that bow.....

It wasn't the bow, the bow would shoot X after X....it was me.


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## aread (Dec 25, 2009)

IMO, comfortable is just what you are used to. Never mind that the bow is 2" long and the string is buried in you face, and your head is tilted forward at 45 degrees to get your nose on the string. If you've been doing it long enough, it's comfortable. Like the guy in this thread:
http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=2435223 45er got him to go to the shop to get the DL shortened. He felt comfortable with it 1/2" shorter. :dontknow:

Your best accuracy is when you are comfortable shooting a bow that fits your optimum form. I suspect we've all made changes to our form that worked out well, but didn't feel comfortable at first. Then as we ingrain the change, sooner or later, it becomes comfortable.

First comes optimum form for the individual, then comes comfort.

JMHO,
Allen


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## Padgett (Feb 5, 2010)

Yeah, but what about putting your butt on the line with a bow that doesn't need a perfect tune job or to be tuned at all. That is my problem with my cpxl, I have tuned it to shoot good arrow flight and it simply spits the arrow randomly all over the 10 ring even though it holds awesome and feels awesome and gives every impression that it should be a tack driver but it simply isn't. My pin floats directly on the 12 ring at any distance and it is a crap shoot of weather or not it is going to hit anywhere close to where I am aiming.

With my specialist I simply don't care if it is tuned because it shoots dead on behind the pin regardless of the tune job, tuning the specialist has always been something that I just felt obligated to do because what if it proves to increase my accuracy. Well I have never been able to really tell a difference before or after tuning it when it comes to confidence in the bow or how it was going to score for me. In fact I have been telling my buddies for the last couple years that I guess after the next asa in two weeks I might ought to shoot some bare shafts to see what is going on and check the cam sync in the draw board I guess but till then I am just enjoy the dead on accuracy. 

To me that is a bow that I want in my hands because there is something about it that is forgiving, I don't know exactly what it is but it just does the job. In over 4 years of shooting tens of thousands of shots through it I have only had one month or so where something weird was going on and my bow was losing elevation and it turned out to be a center serving that was creeping up the string. Other than that once it gets dialed in it just holds that setting for weeks.


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## nochance (Nov 27, 2008)

reylamb said:


> But it isn't the bow.
> 
> I had a bow I just could not for the life of me get comfortable with, and just did not shoot well at all..
> 
> ...


2shooters 1 bow

and by reverse logic i had bow 1 and shot it well then when i switched to bow 2 i shot well. 2 bows one shooter, must be the bow I know its not the bow its the interaction between the bow and shooter but how much time do you invest before moving on. For me no more than a year. I have been lectured that its not the bow while I see these same people buying 3 bows in the same year


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## cbrunson (Oct 25, 2010)

I had to learn to like my pro comp XL. It literally took me several months to finally shoot a better score with it than I could shoot with my hunting bow. I still don’t get that “glove” feeling with it. But I can punch Xs with it now. Picking it up after hunting season and not shooting it for a few months is almost like learning all over again. I’ve been debating on buying a short PXE this year to get a better feeling string angle, but I hesitate knowing I can shoot as well as I do with the long one, even though I don’t like the feel of it.


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## tmorelli (Jul 31, 2005)

My personal highest indoor and 3d...well, and field for that matter all came with a bow I hated. I was actually running pink strings on it in protest with the mfr so that when people asked I could tell them how much I hated that bow. It didn't fit the style of shot I wanted to shoot (and I had reliability issues...and CS issues with them). But, when I shot it like it wanted me to shoot, we both won. When I shot it how I wanted to shoot, I lost.

When we talk comfort with a bow, I'm thinking first of string angle, draw curve, valley/holding weight and wall.... then grip. The rest of the things that affect comfort, I can easily manipulate like mass weight, balance, draw length, etc. Those things I can control, I do not compromise. And to a degree, I don't compromise on the others.... I've decided life is too short to shoot equipment I don't like. This is supposed to be enjoyable for the sake of enjoyment.


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## nochance (Nov 27, 2008)

nochance said:


> 2shooters 1 bow
> 
> and by reverse logic i had bow 1 and shot it well then when i switched to bow 2 i shot well. 2 bows one shooter, must be the bow I know its not the bow its the interaction between the bow and shooter but how much time do you invest before moving on. For me no more than a year. I have been lectured that its not the bow while I see these same people buying 3 bows in the same year


ok i meant to say shot bow 1 well, switched to Bow 2 did NOT shoot well.


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## nochance (Nov 27, 2008)

I may not feel comfortable with a bow but confidence doesn't always come with comfort. It comes from shooting good.


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

tmorelli said:


> My personal highest indoor and 3d...well, and field for that matter all came with a bow I hated. I was actually running pink strings on it in protest with the mfr so that when people asked I could tell them how much I hated that bow. It didn't fit the style of shot I wanted to shoot (and I had reliability issues...and CS issues with them). But, when I shot it like it wanted me to shoot, we both won. When I shot it how I wanted to shoot, I lost.
> 
> When we talk comfort with a bow, I'm thinking first of string angle, draw curve, valley/holding weight and wall.... then grip. The rest of the things that affect comfort, I can easily manipulate like mass weight, balance, draw length, etc. Those things I can control, I do not compromise. And to a degree, I don't compromise on the others.... I've decided life is too short to shoot equipment I don't like. This is supposed to be enjoyable for the sake of enjoyment.


Somewhat like Tony, I had a couple of bows I didn't get along with. Both shot great, but one's cam system really sucked and other kicked like a young mule. And attitude is comfort. I'm just all but totally allergic to shorty bows. The shortest, ugliest bow I ever shot turned out to be a dream to shoot, but dream shooter is was I didn't buy it. Another bow I have is short and sweet, but hangs in the garage. And color, I dislike green bows and luckily green isn't allowed today


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## grantmac (May 31, 2007)

I'm having the issue of two bows with similar specs. I want to like one of them but it just doesn't seem to shoot for me (Shadowcat), just won't group inside the float and the float isn't terribly great. The other (VE) seems to hold a bit better even though it feels long and the arrows seem to find the middle.
Oddly enough the VE is loud and rough on the shot, the Shadowcat is smooth. Yet I can't seem to keep anything tight on the Shadowcat.

I think perhaps the wider grip of the Shadowcat is part of what I dislike. The VE is very thin and rounded. I may break out the Sugru on the Shadowcat before it goes down the road.

-Grant


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

What year Shadowcat? Early 2010 grips were wide and sort of squared (I had one). Next 2010 version had a much more agreeable grip and did the 2011s (I had both). All 3 shot great. In fact, the 2nd 2010 was the one I shot with my eyes closed and shot quite a few 25s and up to 4 Xs. 
My 2011 was one that another Martin Staff shooter couldn't get along with. He wanted to trade. He shot my '06 Hoyt and I shot his Shadowcat. He slapped arrows with mine and near broke my first arrow with my second. We traded even up. I went on to shoot as good as ever and finished 3rd in the ASA State Championship. I sold this bow and instructed the new owner how to set it up for him. The next I knew he was in the 3D forum asking how to turn Pro. No joking....
Go to the Martin forums here. Look for zestycj7 (Don). Another that has outstanding success with the Shadowcats and Scepter Vs. He hoards them  
Don shoots outstandingly and with fingers! He's won much out in Cali. If east he'd clean house at ASA ProAms......


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## grantmac (May 31, 2007)

I believe it's a 2010. The grip is very wide, square and low. I look down and the stab is torqued pretty far to the right (RH shooter). The low holding weight also doesn't seem to agree with me and if I try to load into the stop the float just takes off.
If I had enough accessories to set-up two bows I'd do that and shoot them side by side, but I don't at the moment.

For now I think I'll just be shooting the VE and once I can get the Shadowcat set-up as a secondary then I'll try to see how to make it shoot. It's not the prettiest so I don't mind getting some Sugru on the grip.

-Grant


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## Mahly (Dec 18, 2002)

I'll say this, when using a "comfortable" grip on my Moxie, I suspect I am causing some accuracy issues. Comfortable on that bow, with my hands means shooting at least a medium to high wrist. The arrow shelf interferes with finger placement when using a low wrist. This also means putting a LOT more weight to the side of the bow to get balance (i.e. counter torque).

On my Alpine, there is very little shelf to the left of the grip, my back bar is almost straight back, where my Moxie the bar is almost straight out.


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## montigre (Oct 13, 2008)

PSE just came out with this video... if you strip away the marketing and listen to the core message, it falls in line with the discussion here--what is better overall, comfort or performance? Your thoughts??


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## Mahly (Dec 18, 2002)

The part of feel vs, what is most accurate. Yeah, feel might not be the best judge of accuracy.
Now the rest of the video....LOTS I don't agree with.....but that is another thread.


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## Lazarus (Sep 19, 2005)

Great video. 

I like at about 1:50 where he talks about the biggest lie that's ever been sold to archers. I'm convinced what he says is *one* of the biggest lies that have every been sold to archers. But probably not the biggest, since there are so many. I have a pretty good idea what the biggest is. 

Good find "Dude!" :teeth:


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## cbrunson (Oct 25, 2010)

Just think how good the pros would be if they would start shooting speed bows instead of those stupid slow target bows. It's all about the launch time kids! :lol:


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## montigre (Oct 13, 2008)

cbrunson said:


> Just think how good the pros would be if they would start shooting speed bows instead of those stupid slow target bows. It's all about the launch time kids! :lol:


Not for the speed bows, even though that is what was being described in the video.  But the meat of the video also explains one reason why so many top target shooters (pro and amateur) have been more successful with the low let off, narrow valley cam configurations such as Hoyt's Spirals that gets the arrow off of the string much earlier in the release cycle over the more comfortable-to-shoot standard cams. That's what really caught my ear. :wink:


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## grantmac (May 31, 2007)

montigre said:


> Not for the speed bows, even though that is what was being described in the video. But the meat of the video also explains one reason why so many top target shooters (pro and amateur) have been more successful with the low let off, narrow valley cam configurations such as Hoyt's Spirals that gets the arrow off of the string much earlier in the release cycle over the more comfortable-to-shoot standard cams. That's what really caught my ear. :wink:


Positional rifle and pistol shooters spend a bunch of time and money on guns which have the fastest lock time. You just put into words a thought that has been rattling in the back of my brain as to the archery equivalent. It makes a lot of sense to me that you would want the arrow to start accelerating as quickly as possible after the release fires.
I certain am one of those people who shoot a bow better with little valley.

-Grant


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## Mahly (Dec 18, 2002)

I see the ability to torque the string (face or grip) as a big reason to have higher holding weight.


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## SonnyThomas (Sep 10, 2006)

Certainly there has to be some line of correlation. 
65 pound bow with 75% let off is how fast out of the hole?
55 pound bow with 65% let off is how fast out of the hole?

I've had one 65% let off bow and sold it. It shot great and I hated it. 
Going 14 or 15 years shooting 75% and 80% with no higher than 62 pounds and now lower than 55 pounds. I've done pretty well.


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## montigre (Oct 13, 2008)

Mahly said:


> I see the ability to torque the string (face or grip) as a big reason to have higher holding weight.


I agree this may have a lot to do with it. I have found that I've shot my better scores when the holding weight is in the 60-65% range with a short valley. It's definitely not as comfortable and I have to remain in the shot, but much less of what I do incorrectly at the bow translates to the arrow. I struggle badly (holding and grouping) with a high let off bow.


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