# US Archers Removing Movable Parts from Prodigy Limb Pockets - archerreports.org



## ShooterPhill (Feb 23, 2015)

Thanks for posting this, very interesting stuff!


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## Last_Bastion (Dec 5, 2013)

Just have to say, called it!

As soon as the prodigy came out, I said that the only thing that the new adjustment bolts would do is cause one more thing that can wiggle loose. I almost started a pool of how long it would take before people started replacing it with the "old" limb dowels hahaha


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## wedjat (Mar 10, 2015)

ssxd said:


> A report on archerreports.org (in Japanese, initial here, follow-up here), a site run by a Tokyo-based archery shop, describes the US men's team members at the Rio test event using Prodigy risers but removing some or all of the movable parts of the limb pockets.
> 
> (Apologies if I misuse any terminology, I'm still relatively new to the sport.)
> 
> ...


I saw this and now i am not sure if i should wait for December and see if they will launch something new. Do you guys think Hoyt will launch new riser or limbs in December or January?


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## kshet26 (Dec 20, 2010)

wedjat said:


> Do you guys think Hoyt will launch new riser or limbs in December or January?


Does a bear poop in the woods? :tongue:

I take a tip from my computer building days, if you want to wait for the new thing to arrive, you'll always be waiting.


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## Dacer (Jun 10, 2013)

kshet26 said:


> Does a bear poop in the woods? :tongue:
> 
> I take a tip from my computer building days, if you want to wait for the new thing to arrive, you'll always be waiting.


That's why you buy new parts right after Intel releases their new architecture and chipset, and nvidia puts out a new GPU. You'll have the best consumer parts there are .....welll for 6-9 months anyway.mmmm nevermind. Tic-toc




Just another example of the Easton/Hoyt/NTS(Lee) industrial complex I suppose.....am I right? 


Hmmm elite lvl archers customizing their equipment for reasons that the other 99% of us would never notice. I'm concerned.


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## wedjat (Mar 10, 2015)

kshet26 said:


> Does a bear poop in the woods? :tongue:
> 
> I take a tip from my computer building days, if you want to wait for the new thing to arrive, you'll always be waiting.


I am more interested in having quality equipment. I will definitely buy a new bow around December but if they launch a new bow I would wait for it.And still confused between rx and xt and don't know what to choose.


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## ShooterPhill (Feb 23, 2015)

wedjat said:


> I am more interested in having quality equipment. I will definitely buy a new bow around December but if they launch a new bow I would wait for it.And still confused between rx and xt and don't know what to choose.


...or you could go with a Win CXT, AXT, AL1 :wink:


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## theminoritydude (Feb 11, 2013)

There should be an extra metal plate on the other side of the limb, between the dovetail and the limb.


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## theminoritydude (Feb 11, 2013)

ssxd said:


> The author starts by reminding us about the ability to adjust the Prodigy pocket to handle twisted limbs


It's not going to do anything for the limbs. If they designed the dowel for that, they are mistaken. 

If they designed it for any purpose, it is to correct for riser pocket angular offset.


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## wedjat (Mar 10, 2015)

ShooterPhill said:


> ...or you could go with a Win CXT, AXT, AL1 :wink:


I only like the cxt (colors) new wiawis series is a bad design by my opinion. We will see what will Hoyts answer be to this problem


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## Mr. Roboto (Jul 13, 2012)

What ever happened to the good old days when people just learned how to shoot what ever they had. If the limb's twist isn't changing due to impending failure, then it doesn't matter if there is a twist in the limb it will still shoot just fine. Hoyt needs customers that think they have to make adjustments to something that doesn't matter if the adjustment is made or not. But that is all about advertisements and conning people out of their money


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## Last_Bastion (Dec 5, 2013)

Mr. Roboto said:


> But that is all about advertisements and conning people out of their money


Marketing Acumen 101


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## ssxd (Apr 15, 2015)

wedjat said:


> I only like the cxt (colors) new wiawis series is a bad design by my opinion. We will see what will Hoyts answer be to this problem


If you prefer the design of the Prodigy series, I don't think whatever 'problem' these top level athletes are encountering is going to significantly affect you unless you are shooting at their level. On the other hand, Hoyt should announce next year's line up in the next couple months, so maybe if you wait you can get a better deal on a Prodigy at that point.

Or there's always the trusty GMX if you are not set on the Formula system.


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## jaredjms (Oct 24, 2007)

Hoyt should be announcing the new line just about mid October


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## wedjat (Mar 10, 2015)

W&W has also somthing stored for October 1.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Sounds like Hoyt is coming full circle - for the second time. Hard lock limb attachment system on the original PM TD series (ca. 1970's), then another hard lock system on the Axis (ca. 1999) and now with adaptations on the Prodigy risers? Interesting.


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## SBills (Jan 14, 2004)

Maybe I am not seeing what other are. To me it looks like new detent caps on the bottom two examples and what looks like a homemade detent cap on Brady’s bow. I’d be willing to hypothesis that the finished caps might be on some disguised prototype limbs (the Quattro is now going on its 3rd year). The limbs on Prodigy’s don’t sit centered on the dowels like in an Axis so I doubt these would be hardlocked. 

With regard to the old style tiller bolts remember the pro series bolts were the “solution” to the limb creak some users were getting due to limb wedge flex on the higher poundage units. Probably those two like a simpler solution and were OK with adding a touch of wax on the limb butt to combat any creak.


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## SBills (Jan 14, 2004)

And if we are playing the guess what Hoyt has planned for 2016, my money is on new top end limbs and a new RX-Tec riser. 

One thing Hoyt definitely does do is play with the geometry of the risers and then revert back. Dating back to the Matrix to Helix/Nexus back to GMX and now the RX to HPX/ IONX back to Prodigy RX. What’s old is new again. I have to admit a Formula AXIS would be pretty cool.


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## pineapple3d (Oct 23, 2002)

I will say these top archers like their equipment one way. They customize their bows to fit them. They know what works and what doesnt. They know what tunes best for them and they usually stick with it. Its nothing new to me, its just boys being boys.


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## tbrash01 (Oct 7, 2010)

There can be several factors involved. When shooting 50+lbs and using a limb weight on the formula limb while being at 30"+ draw length has to put some stress on the limb. While Brady was the only one with very clear evidence of a drastic change, ZG and CK both had a unified looking limb bolt but could be used to spread the weight on the limb better since there is no real reinforcement to the upper limb dowel. For whatever reasons they are doing it my guess would be that the average archer under 50lbs wouldn't even need to think of any modifications. Then again we all see our own issues and correct them in our own way to make us feel more confident in the shot process. Whatever floats your goat. Just my .02


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## pineapple3d (Oct 23, 2002)

The reason Brady shoots the locked down limbs is because he thinks they give him more accuracy. This is why he started this. All the boys have the same washers for locking the limbs down. I know I had them made. Brady uses a washer on his gold bow because thats what it s tuned with. It's all about what they like. Everyone knows Brady changes equipment a lot. He is always looking for the perfect setup.


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## SBills (Jan 14, 2004)

Hello Mel,

Are the limbs actually locked down (threaded) to the dowel?


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## pineapple3d (Oct 23, 2002)

Yes they are locked down. They do not move.


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## SBills (Jan 14, 2004)

Interesting..........


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## dmacey (Mar 27, 2015)

I'm still trying to figure out what's wrong with ILF... and why the Formula thingy is so much better. To me, the last major advancement in the olympic recurve was the CNC machined aluminum riser that replaced the sometimes-cracking magnesium Gold Medalist . And even some of the CNC ones cracked once in a while too, but....
So I guess I'm what about 2 decades behind or something like that .

DM


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

Thanks for the insight Mel. You're making me miss my Axis.


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## crushedeiffel (May 24, 2015)

dmacey said:


> To me, the last major advancement in the olympic recurve was the CNC machined aluminum riser that replaced the sometimes-cracking magnesium Gold Medalist  [..]
> So I guess I'm what about 2 decades behind or something like that .
> DM


You are not alone I am still shooting my DMS Spigarelli (it predates the radian) 
Though I confess to be eying a carbon fiber riser, or yet to be made vectran fiber.



Mr. Roboto said:


> What ever happened to the good old days when people just learned how to shoot what ever they had. If the limb's twist isn't changing due to impending failure, then it doesn't matter if there is a twist in the limb it will still shoot just fine.


Well on a Yamaha eola with slightly twisted limbs I would get a 7 from time to time at 50m from time to time. Coach noticed it (I wasn't thinking at all about an hardware problem) dewarped the limbs in hot water, problem solved for 3 months....
Then as it was the end of Yamaha archery bought a DMS Spigarelli (the first machined handle I fell in love with it in Rome and Spigarelli is an outstanding salesman) and Hoyt foam limbs.

The root problem is that Hoyt is not selling straight limbs (they are not alone in that), just limbs usable if you adjust the riser to be able to shoot better than on a 200$ bow.
We are talking about high end bows and limbs. For 600$ I want straight limbs, that line up with my riser without fiddling, Hoyt used to do it.
My old Hoyt limbs are still straight without adjusting in the riser (good thing as there is nothing to adjust but the tiller/weight).

I will have to go shopping for the next pair of limbs with my riser and Beiter's limbs alignment checking tools, I suggest you do the same.


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## limbwalker (Sep 26, 2003)

> For 600$ I want straight limbs, that line up with my riser without fiddling, Hoyt used to do it.


Earl Hoyt himself was a master at this, and insisted his SKY products never left the shop unless they were perfectly straight. I have three sets of Earl Hoyt Jr. SKY limbs, and all three are completely interchangeable right down to nock height and brace height, and dead-on straight.

I think one reason Earl started the SKY brand was to bring back this level of detail and attention his product so he could be sure nothing left his hands that wasn't 100% right.

There is a reason that his original Conquest risers and limbs are still coveted by many knowledgeable archers.


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## dmacey (Mar 27, 2015)

crushedeiffel said:


> You are not alone I am still shooting my DMS Spigarelli (it predates the radian)
> Though I confess to be eying a carbon fiber riser, or yet to be made vectran fiber.


Well the best of the best there is the Win & Win. I've sadly realized my recurve career is over due to physical constraints and have gone to compound full-time, so I'll probably just frame my RX-100. Which IMO, is the finest composite riser you can buy, even tho their other carbon risers cost and weigh more for no apparent reason.

I had a Hoyt Elan for a while, may it R.I.P. in the hands of the thief who robbed it out of my house about 6 years ago. And that was the best machined recurve handle I've ever seen....

DM


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## ShooterPhill (Feb 23, 2015)

How exactly does one determine if riser/limbs have a twist? I've always used the Beiter blocks to ensure limb alignment with the riser, but what is the best way to detect a subtle limb/riser twist?


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## Mulcade (Aug 31, 2007)

ShooterPhill said:


> How exactly does one determine if riser/limbs have a twist? I've always used the Beiter blocks to ensure limb alignment with the riser, but what is the best way to detect a subtle limb/riser twist?


Limbwalker wrote a fantastic how-to on this very topic, Phill. You can read it here: http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=1703779


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## pineapple3d (Oct 23, 2002)

It seems a lot of you think the boys are trying to fix a problem with the straightness of the limbs or the limb alignment. This is not the case. The Hoyt Prodigy and Quattro limbs are both very good products. To me the limb adjustability is the best I have ever seen. It has made my job as a coach much easier when I have to tune a bow. Brady has never had a problem shooting a Hoyt bow straight out of the box. The US boys just seem to play around with their equipment more then most of the other countries do. If you are a high profile archer, people will pick on you and your equipment apart sooner or later. Everyone has their own opinion about why someone is shooting this or that. My life would be easier if Brady would just shoot but that would take all the fun out of it. Plus when you are at this level you are always looking for ways to improve. 
Just for the record there is not a problem with the Hoyt grip either. Each archer makes the grip fit them and they are all different. See where Im going with this? Make your bow fit you. Be the best archer you can be. Enjoy shooting!


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## theminoritydude (Feb 11, 2013)

pineapple3d said:


> It seems a lot of you think the boys are trying to fix a problem with the straightness of the limbs or the limb alignment. This is not the case. The Hoyt Prodigy and Quattro limbs are both very good products. To me the limb adjustability is the best I have ever seen. It has made my job as a coach much easier when I have to tune a bow. Brady has never had a problem shooting a Hoyt bow straight out of the box. The US boys just seem to play around with their equipment more then most of the other countries do. If you are a high profile archer, people will pick on you and your equipment apart sooner or later. Everyone has their own opinion about why someone is shooting this or that. My life would be easier if Brady would just shoot but that would take all the fun out of it. Plus when you are at this level you are always looking for ways to improve.
> Just for the record there is not a problem with the Hoyt grip either. Each archer makes the grip fit them and they are all different. See where Im going with this? Make your bow fit you. Be the best archer you can be. Enjoy shooting!


Mel, I have a question, if you could elaborate please.

How would locking down the limbs with a direct connection to the dowel be any different than having the limbs tension sit themselves onto the dowel?


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## pineapple3d (Oct 23, 2002)

theminoritydude said:


> Mel, I have a question, if you could elaborate please.
> 
> How would locking down the limbs with a direct connection to the dowel be any different than having the limbs tension sit themselves onto the dowel?


Bolted down it is solid and under limb tension it can move. Its all about what you like your shot to feel like. 
You will notice some of our shooters shooting the Pro Bolts on their limbs and others are shooting solid bolts. Two totally different feeling shots. Both are using perfectly good parts.


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## theminoritydude (Feb 11, 2013)

pineapple3d said:


> Bolted down it is solid and under limb tension it can move. Its all about what you like your shot to feel like.
> You will notice some of our shooters shooting the Pro Bolts on their limbs and others are shooting solid bolts. Two totally different feeling shots. Both are using perfectly good parts.


Thanks Mel.


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## Seattlepop (Dec 8, 2003)

Mulcade said:


> Limbwalker wrote a fantastic how-to on this very topic, Phill. You can read it here:
> 
> Good information in that thread, however it was primarily for bow alignment.
> 
> ...


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## ShooterPhill (Feb 23, 2015)

Seattlepop said:


> For twists, I found this on Archery Interchange UK a few years ago: http://www.archeryinterchange.com/f37/all-you-need-know-about-recurve-bow-alignment-54692/
> 
> The photos no longer show on the site - this is the post reconstructed:.......


Thank you for posting this (with photos)! Although thinking about it now I'm not sure I'd _want_ to know if my gear is twisted, considering I am very happy with my rig's tune and overall feel at the moment.


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## theminoritydude (Feb 11, 2013)

One question: why does the string have to be in that particular position?

As in, what if it is not geometrically "centered"?


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## rharper (Apr 30, 2012)

I would say limb torque. Pulling at an angle on the limb tips versus pulling straight back behind.


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## theminoritydude (Feb 11, 2013)

So, if the string is "centered", there will be no limb torque on drawing?


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## rharper (Apr 30, 2012)

Other factors go into it too like your hook (if you pull with an angled hand versus straight up and down) and such, but it's one of the more visual things to tune out.


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## Borderbows (Apr 4, 2009)

Seattlepop. That comprehensive list of checks is the only method id use to check alignement.

any less than ALL the checks could allow a twist to prevail at full draw.

forcing a rotational twist to be straight by lateral adjustment will simply lead to twisted limbs.

our view is that lateral adjustment is only there to allow more production to meet standards.
if you didnt have it, more production would be scrap.

but if your allowing this to slip, then why is rotational alignment not slipping too.
Limb walkers post about the riser being on plane, simply shows you that its possible to have the pockets "OFF" plane. but i certainly wouldnt accept forcing the limbs on plane at the cost of the limb tips being off centre as per Buzz's 4th photo in your "copy" of his post.
If that was the case, the the bow at full draw will show the tips pointing off to one side as per a limb twist.
For me, checking the riser is on plane is a final overveiw, a holistic check on the health of the setup, and not a means for alignment...


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## crushedeiffel (May 24, 2015)

Borderbows said:


> our view is that lateral adjustment is only there to allow more production to meet standards.
> if you didnt have it, more production would be scrap.


And if you can convince buyers that it is an improvement, they might even buy the newer model....
That said they should be perfectly shootable, I would recommend thread lock so nothing can become loose (the blue loctite is just right).
To straighten a riser, you can not only shim, but also file (go slow : fine file, sandpaper dry/wet stone) the shims have a tendency to go loose (from my yamaha ex experience using the included set to tune the tiller).


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## Joe T (Apr 5, 2003)

theminoritydude said:


> One question: why does the string have to be in that particular position?
> 
> As in, what if it is not geometrically "centered"?


Look at this from a slightly different viewpoint. Say the limbs are aligned with each other (string lines up with all the limb center markers). Say the bow hand pressure point is three inches to the left of the limb center line. When you draw the bow the riser is going to rotate clockwise (looking downwards) and the limbs are going to twist anti-clockwise. When you release the string this inbuilt limb torsion is going to accelerate the arrow nock in a curve generating a "weak" tuning reaction. Seem to remember Mike Gerard commenting years ago that this misalignment tuning effect was the major cause of problems archers had with tuning.

In order to minimize (horizontal plane) limb torsion effects on the tuning (there is always some torsion e.g. from the nock lateral flexing) 1) the limbs have to be in line with each other and 2) the plane of the string has to run along the center plane of the bow (which includes the bow hand center of pressure).


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## kshet26 (Dec 20, 2010)

Joe T said:


> Say the bow hand pressure point is three inches to the left of the limb center line. When you draw the bow the riser is going to rotate clockwise (looking downwards) and the limbs are going to twist anti-clockwise.


And this is only due to the fact that we have anchor points impeding the continued rotation of the bow around the off-center pivot (assuming the handle isn't rotating in the bowhand).
These issues can be 'tuned' out as long as they're constant.


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## crushedeiffel (May 24, 2015)

kshet26 said:


> These issues can be 'tuned' out as long as they're constant.


Yes but you will have less to tune, if you do not have a pressure point 3 inches left of center.
Carve/mold/glue/nag someone your grip, so that the pressure point is aligned. That will prevent the bow from turning laterally upon release.


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## kshet26 (Dec 20, 2010)

crushedeiffel said:


> Yes but you will have less to tune, if you do not have a pressure point 3 inches left of center.


Of course! Joe's example is an extreme one. I only mention it because you don't have to throw your rig in the trash if things are a little out of whack due to warp/twist. They can be compensated for. It won't help with confidence or with forgiveness having 'sub-optimal' though.


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## theminoritydude (Feb 11, 2013)

Isn't it the objective of the adjustment to minimize the lateral "swing" of the string? 

I believe we have discussed this here in the forum some time back, that due to the inherent design of the riser, during the draw, the riser twists. One may have the string geometrically centered on "the plane", but have the riser twist during the draw, and subsequently at release, it untwists violently.


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## Vittorio (Jul 17, 2003)

Most practical solution to check your limbs twisting during draw and travel back is to use a tool like this one:

http://www.wernerbeiter.com/en/products/tools/Brace.php

But, as sometime you just apparently align the bow statically only forcing the limbs to twist to compensate a twisted riser, then you need first to check the riser for its twisting using a tool like this:

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/8bc3vrdv9x5f6vo/AABEmbR6UeP6vu3Rg2JZILYIa/GTC-800-R2_200.pdf?dl=0

Personally i don't like the idea of screwing the limbs to the riser each time you assemble the bow. In all systems I have seen or used, since Hoyt TD1/2/3, Nishizawa TD-01 and 2880 and after, the bow ever needs some adjustments after first few shots, and lateral movents are anyhow still possible after that because of the tolerancies of the coupled parts, bending of the limbs pocket, bad releases vibrations and so on ... The beuty of the ILF dovetail system is that if designed properly, the limbs return to the same exact position after each shot, while the dovetail coupling keeps care also of the small bending the limbs pocket may face during shot. 
Coupling the limbs to the riser in a T/D system was the biggest improvemnt in bow design at the beginning of the 70's, IMHO. Several system came out in those years: Bear (I think was the first one) was a solid one, Wing also had a nice idea, then Hoyt, Yamaha , Nishizawa all followed the idea of a back locking screw. But then the TD4 /ILF solution clearly came out as the winning one. Yamaha tried to countereact with the Eolla, but no way, the ILF was a perfect idea in (almost) all its components . And stil is today, IMHO.
Pls note that I'm referring to the dovetail coupling system, NOT to the lenght of the limbs pocket down to the bolt.


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## crushedeiffel (May 24, 2015)

Vittorio;1079150002
But said:


> https://www.dropbox.com/sh/8bc3vrdv9x5f6vo/AABEmbR6UeP6vu3Rg2JZILYIa/GTC-800-R2_200.pdf?dl=0[/url]


Yes it will do the job well, but for one bow from time to time, it's better to go to a machining shop or garage (that can check for warpage of cylinder heads), and ask them to check these 2 surfaces for "parallelism". using this pdf to explain what you want to check.

Using the arrow is not that bad, if you know that the limbs are straight on another known good riser.


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## airwolfipsc (Apr 2, 2008)

Form is twisted...now bow is twisted. A bow is meant to be pulled straight back and reacts forward! all this nts stuff pulling in angle..lol....so sorry. Im old school.


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## rharper (Apr 30, 2012)

What does nts form have to do with a twisted limb or riser?


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## bobnikon (Jun 10, 2012)

airwolfipsc said:


> Form is twisted...now bow is twisted. A bow is meant to be pulled straight back and reacts forward! all this nts stuff pulling in angle..lol....so sorry. Im old school.


At no time does NTS dictate torquing the bow. If you are gripping the bow when you do the angular draw there will be twisting, but then you have missed a lot of the base concepts. Just because you are not push/pulling straight back doesn't mean the bow is twisting.


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## anmactire (Sep 4, 2012)

Everybody seems to be worried about what's going on with the formula/grand prix stuff from Hoyt and here I am waiting for the carbon tube riser designs they have on the likes of the Spyder to be utilised on a recurve riser. That would be something I would want to try. /derail


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## >--gt--> (Jul 1, 2002)

A far more accurate headline story would be "Korean archer (who doesn't get paid to use it), sets new world record with completely unmodified Prodigy RX"

The RA's playing around with this stuff never got to shoot an Axis and simply wanted to see if locking the limbs down would make any difference. It didn't. 

Be careful about trusting stories on websites from people adding 1+1 and coming up with six. This guy has a long history of that.


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## DarkMuppet (Oct 23, 2013)

Who was that GT ?


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## jaredjms (Oct 24, 2007)

Oh Jin hyek shot the world record I believe he's referring to 353/360 at 70


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## theminoritydude (Feb 11, 2013)

DarkMuppet said:


> Who was that GT ?


I love this forum


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## DarkMuppet (Oct 23, 2013)

Ah! Of course, I'd forgotten OH did that recently.  
Ironically, he lost his 30m record yesterday, Lee Seung-yun and KIM Bubmin added a few extra x10s to the 360 score (joint holders now) .


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